# immortals handbook



## kkoie (Jun 30, 2003)

could someone tell me what happened to the Immortals Handbook Upper Krust was working on? Is he still working on it or is it done?


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## kreynolds (Jun 30, 2003)

Click here.


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## Upper_Krust (Jun 30, 2003)

Hi kkoie mate! 

I trust you and the family are keeping well?



			
				kkoie said:
			
		

> *could someone tell me what happened to the Immortals Handbook Upper Krust was working on? Is he still working on it or is it done? *




The latest word is that the SRD will be updated shortly after the 3.5 Core Rulebooks are released. So expect the Epic Level Handbook and Deities & Demigods to enter the SRD sometime around late July/early August *touch wood*.

After that I should have the first pdf released within a few days with the other three to follow every week or two thereafter. The print version following within a few short months.

I appreciate the interest.

I hope to have a website and some previews ready before the release.


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## Bjorn Doneerson (Jun 30, 2003)

I was waiting for someone to bring this back up.  I even considered doing it myself, but I decided I'm too lazy.  

I've probably asked this about a billion times before, but will the print version cost a signifigant amount more than the pdf form?


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## Upper_Krust (Jun 30, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *I was waiting for someone to bring this back up.  I even considered doing it myself, but I decided I'm too lazy.
> 
> I've probably asked this about a billion times before, but will the print version cost a signifigant amount more than the pdf form? *




I could take a guess and say the print version will cost something like 50% more than the combined pdfs...but thats just a guess of course.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 7, 2003)

Hi all! 

Just curious does anyone think there would be much call for an additional Epic/Immortal Monster pdf/supplement (thats in addition to the IH Bestiary section*)?

*Which currently has 64 entries.

The reason I ask is that I I keep coming up with new monster ideas and I ran out of room in the IH months ago. There are also a number of dimensional hierarchies I would like to explore further such as the Qlippoth and Technites (Inevitables); among others.

I suppose I can wait and see how the various IH pdfs sell to gauge things, I'm just a little chagrinned I have to leave out what is currently over 40 monster ideas.


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## Alzrius (Jul 7, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi all!
> 
> Just curious does anyone think there would be much call for an additional Epic/Immortal Monster pdf/supplement (thats in addition to the IH Bestiary section*)?
> 
> ...




An idea that is certainly intruiging, if nothing else.

The thing to consider is that epic creatures are themselves something of a "niche" product. Most campaigns don't make it to epic level (I've seen some DMs even say that dislike epic material altogether). Given that, most DMs will only need so many epic creatures to begin with...64 seems to fill that need quite nicely, putting in more...well, I don't know...

This isn't to say I'm not interested in such a product...I'd love to see it, especially since your work seems to be top-notch, I'm just trying to objectively ascertain how much of a call for even more epic monsters there'd be.

It really depends on several factors that we don't have yet. Your IH could drum up interest to the point where people would be scrambling over themselves for more epic monsters. Likewise, it also depends on price, the CRs of such monsters (low epic? high epic?), etc.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 7, 2003)

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *An idea that is certainly intruiging, if nothing else.*




Appreciate the interest mate.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *The thing to consider is that epic creatures are themselves something of a "niche" product.*




Agreed.

I anticipate about 20-25% of DMs own the Epic Level Handbook and of those about 20-25% actually play such a campaign.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *Most campaigns don't make it to epic level (I've seen some DMs even say that dislike epic material altogether).*




Thats all fair and well.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *Given that, most DMs will only need so many epic creatures to begin with...64 seems to fill that need quite nicely, putting in more...well, I don't know...*




Well like I said those 64 are in the Immortals Handbook itself (in the bestiary section). 

Additional Monsters would require another supplement...think along the lines of a Legions of Hell/Armies of the Abyss sized supplement (maybe a bit bigger than those actually but you get the idea).



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *This isn't to say I'm not interested in such a product...I'd love to see it, especially since your work seems to be top-notch, I'm just trying to objectively ascertain how much of a call for even more epic monsters there'd be.*




You could be right, although I would like to think that if the monsters were interesting enough people would buy it.

We will see how the Immortals Handbook Bestiary section is greeted.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *It really depends on several factors that we don't have yet. Your IH could drum up interest to the point where people would be scrambling over themselves for more epic monsters.*




I hope it will do its part. 

I imagine we will see a number of epic based products once the SRD is updated (at least I am hoping so because I want to buy some that are not of my own pen).



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *Likewise, it also depends on price, the CRs of such monsters (low epic? high epic?), etc. *




There is a good pyramid of Monsters in the IH Bestiary from around CR 30* to around CR 1000+. Obviously there are more monsters of the relatively lower CRs. Though I still have a decent amount of monsters around CR 100+ since the ELH also caters for monsters between about CR 20 - 100.

*For the record my CR 30 is akin to WotCs CR 20...you just divide by 2/3 to get the WotC comparable CR.

I would engineer any future supplement in a similar fashion.


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## Alzrius (Jul 7, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Well like I said those 64 are in the Immortals Handbook itself (in the bestiary section).
> 
> Additional Monsters would require another supplement...think along the lines of a Legions of Hell/Armies of the Abyss sized supplement (maybe a bit bigger than those actually but you get the idea).*




I know, that's why I said 64. What I meant is that if these people buy the IH (which seems like it will be almost a prerequisite since you do rework the wheel a bit...you may get more sales for this possible "additional epic monster" book if you advertize that you don't need the IH to use this...make it "plug and play"), then they'll have 64 epic monsters...which is probably enough. If you have 64 epic monsters to through at your party, are you really needing another forty or so?


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 7, 2003)

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *I know, that's why I said 64. What I meant is that if these people buy the IH (which seems like it will be almost a prerequisite since you do rework the wheel a bit...you may get more sales for this possible "additional epic monster" book if you advertize that you don't need the IH to use this...make it "plug and play"), then they'll have 64 epic monsters...which is probably enough. If you have 64 epic monsters to through at your party, are you really needing another forty or so? *




Well you actually don't need the Immortals Handbook to use the monsters in the Bestiary section of the Immortals Handbook. Its standalone (which makes sense since the four pdfs* will be sold seperate)

*That comprise the Immortals Handbook (Apotheosis; Grimoire; Bestiary; Chronicle).

I mean aside from one or two feats you don't really need the Epic Level Handbook to use the Monsters within that book.


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## Alzrius (Jul 7, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *I mean aside from one or two feats you don't really need the Epic Level Handbook to use the Monsters within that book. *




See, that's exactly what you should be saying if/when you advertize this product.

People are going to look at this epic monster supplement (people who havent bought the IH and maybe not even the ELH) and think that they need one or even both of them to use this. Put up in there that the monster book stands on its own, and that will boost sales. I feel pretty confident of that.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 7, 2003)

Hello again mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *See, that's exactly what you should be saying if/when you advertize this product.
> 
> People are going to look at this epic monster supplement (people who havent bought the IH and maybe not even the ELH) and think that they need one or even both of them to use this. Put up in there that the monster book stands on its own, and that will boost sales. I feel pretty confident of that. *




Of course I haven't officially started advertissing the Immortals Handbook yet, but when I do I will make sure its done properly.


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## Anubis (Jul 7, 2003)

If you plan on SELLING a suppliment, you better damn well have more than 40 extra monsters.  (Something around 100-200 would be better.)  For only 40, you might as well just make it a web enhancement because no will will spend money on something so small.


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## Impeesa (Jul 7, 2003)

What might be better is a large IH supplement with all the other stuff we want, too - extra pantheons statted, portfolios, monsters, spells and items, all that. 

--Impeesa--


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 7, 2003)

Hi anubis mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *If you plan on SELLING a suppliment, you better damn well have more than 40 extra monsters.  (Something around 100-200 would be better.)  For only 40, you might as well just make it a web enhancement because no will will spend money on something so small. *




Umm...

Legions of Hell (64 pages/42 Monsters)
Armies of the Abyss (64 pages/26 Monsters)

Yes I know both those have other facets to their contents.

To be honest I was thinking of about 96 pages/64 Monsters in size.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 7, 2003)

*...and the sequel to the Immortals Handbook is...*

Hi Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> *What might be better is a large IH supplement with all the other stuff we want, too - extra pantheons statted, portfolios, monsters, spells and items, all that.  *




I will be covering Pantheons in a follow-up line called the Immortals Index. 

It comprises 20 Pantheons each (at least) 64 pages in length featuring gods; heroes; monsters (both epic and non-epic); magic items/artifacts; spells/epic spells; prestige classes; rites, practices and rituals; adventures and relevant locations such as temples and divine realms.


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## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 8, 2003)

Acchhh!!! At the same time I feel compelled to save money _and_ attempt to buy all the products mentioned... I think I'm about to rob myself blind....I almost resisted too.  Right up until the word Qlippoth...Argghh...torn between wanting to kill Krust and shake his hand.  Probably wisest to do neither.  Self Narration ending....


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## Anabstercorian (Jul 8, 2003)

I have ideas and I have no choice but to share them... >.<

Star Bearer: These Collosal Elementals are created entirely out of the stuff of stars, and as such burn brighter than the fires of the elemental plane.  Their very presence can turn forests to ash and irradiate planets, and while on the surface of the sun they can trigger solar flares, sun spots, or even novae.

Apocalypse Warriors: Once there were hundreds of thousands, but they fought amongst themselves until only ten remained.  These last few are unstoppable warriors, sworn champions of the Cosmic Powers of Death, beyond even the greatest of deities worshipped by man.  Through blade and hate, they purge entire planets of life, leaving only barren rock behind them.

The Juggernaut of Agony: A living being of Giger-esque madness the size of a small mountain, prowling the Plain of Shadows and preying upon the myriad worlds of the universe, sending foul children forth to sow war and torment that create echoes for the mammoth obscenity to feed upon.

Paradoxia: Paradoxia are very strange creatures that exist in causal loops.  They were never actually created - They simply travel through time at will, finally returning to the point they started from and repeating the process forever.  This grants them enormous insight, as they have literally already fought any battle they are in an infinite number of times, and they also cannot be truly killed - But slaying a paradoxia prevents it from manifesting in the timestream for another ten thousand years.  (Inspired by Stephen Baxter's _Vacuum Diagrams_, which is really awesomely cool.)


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## Zhnov (Jul 8, 2003)

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *>.<
> 
> Star Bearer
> Apocalypse Warriors
> ...




Anabstercorian, ...and I thought my poor players had it rough.  

Or, are you describing the PCs ??


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## Anabstercorian (Jul 8, 2003)

No, this is the sort of thing I'd throw at my players, if I could find any.  Mostly I'm the player myself - Largely because the other gamers around where I live find the idea of a game like that a little silly.

The Apocalypse Warriors are blatant ripoffs of the Saiya-Jin.  The Star Bearers are a product of my own creation from the 3rd IR.  The Juggernaut of Agony was inspired by www.giger.com.

And here's more.

Iron Elemental - Essentially an earth elemental only more so, the iron elemental is composed entirely out of pure, unpolluted iron, and, given that it's the size of a small house, is virtually invulnerable and has the strength of a small army.  It has no great magic power, only raw strength and nearly limitless endurance.

Glasshiv - Tiny psionic constructs about the size of a man's finger, shaped like shards of glass and sharp enough to shave with, glasshivs come in swarms of twenty to forty, fly as elegantly as hummingbirds and with the speed of hawks, and can reduce a man to a skeleton wrapped in pulpy meat within one second when they work together.

Rawzir (RAH-zeer) - These foul sounds echo through the endless howls of pandemonium until they can find prey, upon which they manifest in to a disembodied set of eyes and mouth composed of scintillating sonic force and shred them to pieces.


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## Anubis (Jul 8, 2003)

Those monsters sound cool.  Could you stat them out?

Also, UK seems unable to post at the moment, but he says it's temporary.


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## Tywyll (Jul 8, 2003)

*How do you handle...*

Here is my question about the Immortal Guidebook, and I admit that this might have been answered somewhere else, but with 30+ pages of posts, I will never find it.  

How do you deal with the disparity between characters and creatures modierfiers to hit and saves at extreme levels?  I have run some high level stuff, both epic and my normal year and a half campaign hitting the 15-18 area.  The issue I found was the monsters and characters became extremely focused.  This was because the random element, the d20, only had 20 potential results.  So I had the issue where monsters either could never hit, but their special abilities might be useful, or in order to hit, no one could make the saves versus their special abilities.  In a group we were playing around with recently (25th level) its almost impossible to find creatures that are challenging without completely hosing other characters in the group.  Its almost all or nothing.  

How will your material handle what is, to me, a fundemental flaw of high level gaming?


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## Anubis (Jul 8, 2003)

Tywyll said:
			
		

> *Here is my question about the Immortal Guidebook, and I admit that this might have been answered somewhere else, but with 30+ pages of posts, I will never find it.
> 
> How do you deal with the disparity between characters and creatures modierfiers to hit and saves at extreme levels?  I have run some high level stuff, both epic and my normal year and a half campaign hitting the 15-18 area.  The issue I found was the monsters and characters became extremely focused.  This was because the random element, the d20, only had 20 potential results.  So I had the issue where monsters either could never hit, but their special abilities might be useful, or in order to hit, no one could make the saves versus their special abilities.  In a group we were playing around with recently (25th level) its almost impossible to find creatures that are challenging without completely hosing other characters in the group.  Its almost all or nothing.
> 
> How will your material handle what is, to me, a fundemental flaw of high level gaming? *




I can answer this.  Due to the nature of the CR/EL relationship, creatures within the PCs' CR/EL range should fit pretty well with the level of challenge that should be represented.

Please note, however, and this is from me, that at high levels, you have three specific things you MUST simply live with:

1) PCs and creatures that are supposed to be in melee will probably always hit with almost no exceptions.

2) Saving throws stay pretty even, but more often than not, saves will likely be easy to make for both PCs and creatures.

3) In high-level games, battles boil down to who lasts the longest (like in a video game RPG) and drift away from the issue of who may hit first or fail a save first.

Also, please note that while an EL+4 is a 50/50 challenge at lower levels, it may favor monsters at higher levels, depending on the equipment of PCs.  Things should not vary too much, however.  As long as you remember the above three precepts, you should be okay.  There is no mechanical way to keep the "randomness" in the game using the d20 because eventually stats will override almost every single roll made.  Thankfully, as the DM, you are able to create monsters/NPCs that have suitable stats for every encounter.  Even the ELH states that the randomness should disappear at epic levels, replace solely by DM discretion.  There simply is no way to stop this no matter what system you use.

Anyway, I think that should answer your question.


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## Anubis (Jul 8, 2003)

UK, there is one more important thing you should take care of before releasing the final PDF and Immortal's Handbook: TRAPS.

Traps have CR or EL, but there is no clear way to figure out whether the numbers are right or not.  Currently, I just use the current CR numbers as EL, but I'm not so sure this is accurate.  You should detail a system to determine CR/EL for traps.


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## Anabstercorian (Jul 8, 2003)

Alright, I'll try and give a very basic stat block to the paradoxia.  There won't be much in the way of hard numbers, though, I don't have the time.

Paradoxia 

A Paradoxia appears as a 10 foot tall humanoid with reflective hematite skin.  Its head has an identical face on the front and back.  It can shift its feet in either direction.  They are genderless.  Frequently, one set of arms will wield a weapon and shield, and the other set will cast spells.

HD: 60 (Somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 hit points.)
AC: (Pretty high, largely due to vast insight bonuses.  A 40th level fighter could hit them reliably, and a 40th level cleric/rogue type who focused on violence would hit frequently.)
Attacks: They can strike armed or unarmed, and generally never miss, thanks to being under what is effectively a continuous True Strike effect.  Their CR should be calculated as though a Paradoxia will only miss on a natural 1.  An unarmed strike from a paradoxia knocks the target in to the future a number of rounds equal to the points of damage inflicted divided by six.  Average damage from one of their strikes is about 40 points of impact damage plus 20 or so points of temporal friction damage.
Speed: Only about 50 feet, but they can use their Dual Actions ability to travel a full 400 feet in a round if they have to.
Saves: Very good.  Thanks to their immunities, they rarely have to make saves of any significance.
Special Qualities: Their Paradoxial special quality serves as a continuous death ward for them, and their two faces give them Dual Actions, like Demigorgon.  Additionally, they are never caught flatfooted or surprised.  They are incapable of gaining experience points, but may 'spend' from a virtual pool of 10,000 experience points that refreshes itself every day.  They do not breathe, eat, or drink.
Special Attacks: They can emulate any divination spell of 4th level or lower at will as a free action as an extraordinary ability with a 'caster level' of 60.  Additionally, their strikes do the whole knock you forward in time thing.  They can also travel in time at will, but have no fine control - They always travel at least 50 years, and generally wind up from 50% to 150% off.
Abilities: Paradoxia are impossibly strong, around in the 70's.  Their other physical skills are average, but their mental stats are phenomonal.
Skills: Lacking flight, they make up for it with very high movement skills that allow them to literally walk on water or leap dozens of feet in the air to face their foes.
Alignment: Any.  There are nine, each of which with the respective alignment.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 10, 2003)

FINALLY...THE KRUST HAS COME BACK...TO EN...WORLD

Normal service will be resumed shortly.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 10, 2003)

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Acchhh!!! At the same time I feel compelled to save money and attempt to buy all the products mentioned... I think I'm about to rob myself blind....I almost resisted too.  Right up until the word Qlippoth...Argghh...torn between wanting to kill Krust and shake his hand.  Probably wisest to do neither.  Self Narration ending.... *




I'll try and stagger the releases so as not to hurt your pocket too much.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 10, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I have ideas and I have no choice but to share them... >.<*




Fire away!



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Star Bearer: These Collosal Elementals are created entirely out of the stuff of stars, and as such burn brighter than the fires of the elemental plane.  Their very presence can turn forests to ash and irradiate planets, and while on the surface of the sun they can trigger solar flares, sun spots, or even novae.*




I have an idea not a million miles away from this pencilled for the additional Monster Supplement I hinted at. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Apocalypse Warriors: Once there were hundreds of thousands, but they fought amongst themselves until only ten remained.  These last few are unstoppable warriors, sworn champions of the Cosmic Powers of Death, beyond even the greatest of deities worshipped by man.  Through blade and hate, they purge entire planets of life, leaving only barren rock behind them.*




This actually sounds like a more powerful version of an idea I sent to S&SS for their Creature Collection 3. Although I think even the 'not quite so powerful' version I sent them was still too powerful for that books contents. As such I have it pencilled in for the additional Monster Supplement. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *The Juggernaut of Agony: A living being of Giger-esque madness the size of a small mountain, prowling the Plain of Shadows and preying upon the myriad worlds of the universe, sending foul children forth to sow war and torment that create echoes for the mammoth obscenity to feed upon.*




Interesting description though I am none the wiser as to what exactly it does...sends out peices of itself (the aforementioned children)...and feeds off the torment they create. Is that it?

I have a plant based Abomination (misbegotten offspring of a Nature Deity) that has a really cool ability which in a completely roundabout way sounds something similar.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Paradoxia: Paradoxia are very strange creatures that exist in causal loops.  They were never actually created - They simply travel through time at will, finally returning to the point they started from and repeating the process forever.  This grants them enormous insight, as they have literally already fought any battle they are in an infinite number of times, and they also cannot be truly killed - But slaying a paradoxia prevents it from manifesting in the timestream for another ten thousand years.  (Inspired by Stephen Baxter's Vacuum Diagrams, which is really awesomely cool.) *




Interesting idea, I have a number of time based creatures in the IH but none with this particular take on it.


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## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 10, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *I'll try and stagger the releases so as not to hurt your pocket too much.  *




Well, that's very kind of you, but I don't have any steady income, so it doesn't matter.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 10, 2003)

Hello again mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *No, this is the sort of thing I'd throw at my players, if I could find any.  Mostly I'm the player myself - Largely because the other gamers around where I live find the idea of a game like that a little silly.
> 
> The Apocalypse Warriors are blatant ripoffs of the Saiya-Jin.  The Star Bearers are a product of my own creation from the 3rd IR.  The Juggernaut of Agony was inspired by www.giger.com.
> 
> ...




I have a handful of Elementals in the IH which I think you will all find interesting; including one from the Far Realm...which is actually the least interesting I think. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Glasshiv - Tiny psionic constructs about the size of a man's finger, shaped like shards of glass and sharp enough to shave with, glasshivs come in swarms of twenty to forty, fly as elegantly as hummingbirds and with the speed of hawks, and can reduce a man to a skeleton wrapped in pulpy meat within one second when they work together.*




Very interesting indeed.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Rawzir (RAH-zeer) - These foul sounds echo through the endless howls of pandemonium until they can find prey, upon which they manifest in to a disembodied set of eyes and mouth composed of scintillating sonic force and shred them to pieces. *




There is already a monster (template actually) something like this in the IH.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 10, 2003)

*Re: How do you handle...*

Hi Tywyll mate! 



			
				Tywyll said:
			
		

> *Here is my question about the Immortal Guidebook, and I admit that this might have been answered somewhere else, but with 30+ pages of posts, I will never find it.  *




Thast okay, fire away! 

I'll have the website sorted before the end off this month, so that should help people get the picture. 



			
				Tywyll said:
			
		

> *How do you deal with the disparity between characters and creatures modierfiers to hit and saves at extreme levels?*




Specialisation is always a double edged sword.

Characters (even deities) that are overtly strong in one area will be weak in others.



			
				Tywyll said:
			
		

> *I have run some high level stuff, both epic and my normal year and a half campaign hitting the 15-18 area.  The issue I found was the monsters and characters became extremely focused.  This was because the random element, the d20, only had 20 potential results.  So I had the issue where monsters either could never hit, but their special abilities might be useful, or in order to hit, no one could make the saves versus their special abilities.  In a group we were playing around with recently (25th level) its almost impossible to find creatures that are challenging without completely hosing other characters in the group.  Its almost all or nothing.*




With regards Melee; BAB scales faster than AC; however damage scales slower than Hit Points.

So at low levels you are less likely to hit but proportionally deal more damage when you do hit. At epic levels you will likely hit all the time* but proportionally the damage you will deal is much less.

*Unless your opponent has specialised in shoring up its defense.

So in that respect combat is still balanced.

Saving Throws are another matter however.  When we ran our Immortal campaign using 1st Edition rules the saving throws generally maxed out at a fixed base save '2'. Meaning you only ever failed on a natural '1'. This introduced a sort of 'Russian Roulette' excitement to the game which was admittedly nerve-wracking on occasion. 

This meant information was vital, as a deity you always tried to manipulate the situation to your advantage and your opponents disadvantage.

However, now its actually possible to increase DCs to a point where even gods may only succeed on a natural '20'!

There are a number of ways this is counteracted.

Firstly, mechanics. I have made a number of minor changes to epic spellcasting; salient divine abilities and epic feats so as to curtail DCs while at the same time still allowing them to be increased. 

Secondly, campaigning. Deities or powerful epic characters who overtly specialise in one area will of course gain a reputation. So opponents will generally know their opponents strengths and can take measures accordingly.

eg. Thor has a reputation as a heavy hitter, clearly unless you are confident of your own abilities or have some advantage he doesn't know about, it would be poor tactics to engage him in melee.

Also its very tricky to permanently kill a deity so while you might defeat (cause to retreat from the field) a deity or even destroy its manifestation that probably won't be the last you see of it. 

...and of course if you do happen to permanently destroy a deity I'm sure its Pantheon will be quick to redress such an afront. 



			
				Tywyll said:
			
		

> *How will your material handle what is, to me, a fundemental flaw of high level gaming? *




Combat is still balanced.

Saving Throws, see above.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 10, 2003)

Hi Anubis mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *UK, there is one more important thing you should take care of before releasing the final PDF and Immortal's Handbook: TRAPS.
> 
> Traps have CR or EL, but there is no clear way to figure out whether the numbers are right or not.  Currently, I just use the current CR numbers as EL, but I'm not so sure this is accurate.  You should detail a system to determine CR/EL for traps. *




I'll have a think about it, however, I imagine this should be addressed in the CR/EL thread.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 10, 2003)

Hello again mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Alright, I'll try and give a very basic stat block to the paradoxia.  There won't be much in the way of hard numbers, though, I don't have the time.
> 
> Paradoxia
> 
> A Paradoxia appears as a 10 foot tall humanoid with reflective hematite skin.  Its head has an identical face on the front and back.  It can shift its feet in either direction.  They are genderless.  Frequently, one set of arms will wield a weapon and shield, and the other set will cast spells.*




I like the desription...beings with multiple faces are very esoteric. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *HD: 60 (Somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 hit points.)*




I generally try to ascertain who it would fight against to gain a measure of its power, the above would suggest along the lines of Lesser-Intermediate Gods; which may be a bit too high given its non-affiliated nature.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *AC: (Pretty high, largely due to vast insight bonuses.  A 40th level fighter could hit them reliably, and a 40th level cleric/rogue type who focused on violence would hit frequently.)
> Attacks: They can strike armed or unarmed, and generally never miss, thanks to being under what is effectively a continuous True Strike effect.  Their CR should be calculated as though a Paradoxia will only miss on a natural 1.  An unarmed strike from a paradoxia knocks the target in to the future a number of rounds equal to the points of damage inflicted divided by six.  Average damage from one of their strikes is about 40 points of impact damage plus 20 or so points of temporal friction damage.*




Temporal friction...I like! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Speed: Only about 50 feet, but they can use their Dual Actions ability to travel a full 400 feet in a round if they have to.
> Saves: Very good.  Thanks to their immunities, they rarely have to make saves of any significance.
> Special Qualities: Their Paradoxial special quality serves as a continuous death ward for them, and their two faces give them Dual Actions, like Demigorgon.  Additionally, they are never caught flatfooted or surprised.  They are incapable of gaining experience points, but may 'spend' from a virtual pool of 10,000 experience points that refreshes itself every day.  They do not breathe, eat, or drink.*




Dunno if I would pursue this virtual EXP idea. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Special Attacks: They can emulate any divination spell of 4th level or lower at will as a free action as an extraordinary ability with a 'caster level' of 60.  Additionally, their strikes do the whole knock you forward in time thing.  They can also travel in time at will, but have no fine control - They always travel at least 50 years, and generally wind up from 50% to 150% off.
> Abilities: Paradoxia are impossibly strong, around in the 70's.  Their other physical skills are average, but their mental stats are phenomonal.
> Skills: Lacking flight, they make up for it with very high movement skills that allow them to literally walk on water or leap dozens of feet in the air to face their foes.
> Alignment: Any.  There are nine, each of which with the respective alignment. *




I like the alignment idea.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 10, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Well, that's very kind of you, but I don't have any steady income, so it doesn't matter.   *




That makes two of us...although thats one similarity I'll be hoping to shake in the not too distant future.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 11, 2003)

I noticed for a long time, the Immortals Handbook thread died and the CR/EL one was doing really well, but I didn't bother to check in(mostly cause I'm not a good numbers person and so the topic just didn't catch my interest  ).  Did all the discussion end up there?  Or did the deific discussion just die down for a bit?


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 11, 2003)

*And now - The Glasshiv Swarm*

Glasshiv Swarm - Medium Swarm of Fine Construsts

A glasshiv is a fine crystal wedge about 4 inches long, as thick as a sword blade and tipped with an edge so sharp you could shave with it.  They're colored a sulfurous yellow and are slightly transparent, and often stained with the blood of their victims.  Occasionally they 'dance' strangely in mid air to shake off congealed ichor.

HD: 20 (Somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 hit points.)
AC: Almost irrelevant, given that Swarms are immune to attacks that target a single creature - I.E., anything that requires an attack roll.  However, bludgeoning weapons are a unique weakness of glasshiv swarms and they can be attacked by two handed bludgeoning weapons size Medium or larger.  Their AC is in the 30's.
Attacks: Their Swarm damage is 10d6.
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Speed: 60 feet, perfect flight.
Saves: Fantastic reflex, poor will, poor fortitude
Special Qualities: Glasshiv swarms can go in to a torpor to temporarily gain Fast Healing 3, which cannot heal Sonic damage.
Special Attacks: They have a few interesting abilities - They can suddenly form a giant spotlight to create normal light or Sunbeam effects at will, as they can generate and store light, and they can ignore the first 5 points of hardness of any object they swarm.
Abilities: Glasshiv swarms have excellent dexterity, no con, no int, and average wisdom and poor charisma.  Almost no strength.
Alignment: Generally neutral.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 11, 2003)

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *I noticed for a long time, the Immortals Handbook thread died and the CR/EL one was doing really well, but I didn't bother to check in (mostly cause I'm not a good numbers person and so the topic just didn't catch my interest  ).  Did all the discussion end up there?  Or did the deific discussion just die down for a bit? *




The Immortals Handbook discussion I think faded a bit because its difficult for people to discuss things they haven't really seen for any extended period. Also I didn't really want to post many spoilers before the release just to artificially keep the thread alive.

Whereas the CR/EL document is already out there (albeit the prototype) so its easier for people to get their teeth into.

Hence theres more 'surf and turf' action in the CR/EL thread.

I imagine when the Immortals Handbook is released that discussion will pick up again.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 11, 2003)

Hopefully I can catch you for a moment.  What did you mean by "surf and turf?"


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 11, 2003)

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Hopefully I can catch you for a moment.  What did you mean by "surf and turf?" *




Its an expression I heard in a movie once (Robert DeNiro in Midnight Run if my memory serves me); I believe its used to convey a dichotomy or friction in a pleasant way...as such it seemed an ideal metaphor for the thread, in fact threads in general.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 11, 2003)

Ahhh.  The problem was to me "surf and turf" always meant a dish of fish and steak.  One can see how that may confuse a person.  Or maybe I'm just not that bright.  I dunno.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 11, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Ahhh.  The problem was to me "surf and turf" always meant a dish of fish and steak.  One can see how that may confuse a person.  Or maybe I'm just not that bright.  I dunno. *




Maybe I was reading too much into it then. What can I say - I'm a deep thinker.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 12, 2003)

*Should I revise the Angels?*

Hi all! 

I don't yet own 3.5 (until Tuesday) but I am privy to many of the details.

Suffice to say the myriad demons and devils have been greatly augmented with the Balor and Pit Fiend now representing entry level Quasi-deities and virtually on a par with the Solar while at the same time leaving the Planetar lagging behind.

Personally I am in favour of this boost; but not at the expense of the stagnation of the Angels, or at the very least it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. As I mentioned on another board; "I remember when the Planetar was more powerful than Orcus!"- now it could be punked out by a Marilith.  

One the one hand this could just be the sour grapes talking and I should just wipe away the tears of nostalgia and take my lumps. But on the other; in the bygone era of AD&D (1st Edition obviously) there was a method behind the madness of the outer planes and its inhabitants (and their respective hierarchies) that is all too sadly lacking in todays sterilised D&D rulebooks (and by that I mean a lack of cross-pollenation and by extension a respect for the other books).

Part of me is tempted to return the Planetar and Solar to their former glory in the Immortals Handbook but another part of me says just let it be and detail your own Angels to fill that void thus avoiding the confusion of giving people two Planetars and two Solars...

...even if my versions were called Planetary Deva and Stellar Deva respectively. 

Any comments?

Should I just say no to revising them and leave the past in the past?


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 12, 2003)

*Re: Should I revise the Angels?*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Part of me is tempted to return the Planetar and Solar to their former glory in the Immortals Handbook but another part of me says just let it be and detail your own Angels to fill that void thus avoiding the confusion of giving people two Planetars and two Solars...
> 
> ...even if my versions were called Planetary Deva and Stellar Deva respectively.
> 
> ...




I'd LOVE to see Planetary and Stellar Deva's.  That'd be pretty cool.  However, you would then, by default, be obliged to provide us with a Galactic Deva, whose awesome might would shake the firmament.


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 12, 2003)

Hi Upper Krust and Anabstecorian, my old rival from 3rd IR! It is unfortunate that I wasn`t often online during last year, but my evil parents took my computer because of important exams I had to undertake. But maybe it wasn`t such a bad idea since I had an 8th place out of 900 people on Uniwersity Entry exams( faculty of law). Anyway I am finally back, and quite surprised that Immortal`s Handbook isn`t yet finished. But I am quite sure it will be worth the waiting!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 12, 2003)

*Re: Re: Should I revise the Angels?*

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I'd LOVE to see Planetary and Stellar Deva's.  That'd be pretty cool. *




Well one way or the other I will have Devas occupying that niche I am just unsure if they will be derivative of their 1st Edition AD&D incarnations or not...

...at the moment I am edging towards making my own versions afresh.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *However, you would then, by default, be obliged to provide us with a Galactic Deva, whose awesome might would shake the firmament. *




What makes you think I would stop at a 'mere' galactic deva? 

Incidently I believe Serge has a 'Galaxar' detailed over at the excellent Dicefreaks website in a thread in their epic rules forum.

Also for those of you who keep track of these things I have actually found obscure references to three types of angels more powerful than the Seraphim themselves...and as detailed in the Immortals Handbook one Seraphim is probably a match for an entire Pantheon. 

I have not yet decided if these three greater-still ranks, which comprise the esoteric Over-Choir; collectively refered to as the "Huper Ouranioi" (which roughly translated means Super Celestials) will be detailed in the Immortals Handbook (I have every rank up to and including the Seraphim). 

When you have monsters that can summon beings more powerful than Ao its probably time to draw the line...then again.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 12, 2003)

Melkor said:
			
		

> *Hi Upper Krust!*




Hi Melkor mate! 

I trust you and the family are keeping well!?



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *It is unfortunate that I wasn`t often online during last year,*




Yeah! You disappeared without so much as a goodbye. I'm just glad to see you are okay.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *but my evil parents took my computer because of important exams I had to undertake.*




Your parents sound more like Lawful Good to me. 

Do not underestimate the value of education my friend. Healthy mind, healthy body; thats what they preach at the Temple of Krust...and hopefully one of these days we will incorporate the Cult of the Healthy Purse. 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *But maybe it wasn`t such a bad idea since I had an 8th place out of 900 people on Uniwersity Entry exams( faculty of law).*




If I were Chaotic Evil I would advocate assassinating those seven to gain the coveted top spot. But alas I am Lawful Good. Ah well. 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *Anyway I am finally back, and quite surprised that Immortal`s Handbook isn`t yet finished.*




If only I'd had someone take my computer (or at least the messageboards) away to help me study. 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *But I am quite sure it will be worth the waiting! *




You can GUARAN-DAMN-TEE it!


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 12, 2003)

*Re: Should I revise the Angels?*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi all!
> 
> I don't yet own 3.5 (until Tuesday) but I am privy to many of the details.
> 
> ...






Actually I am not convinced upon good creatures being more powerful than evil ones in similar category, the most prominent examples being outsiders and dragons, but also sphinxes or nagas. My main reason is that good beings will unite to face an evil threat while those of evil alignments will fight among each other as often, if not more, as versus the followers of Light, look at The Blood War for a great example. 
  The same might be true concerning Deities, the usual aproach is to have similar number of Gods of any alignment on the same power level so they would balance each other, yet good  and neutral ones would most likely jointly interfere when one of The Deities of Darkness threatens the balance. Example using Faerunian Pantheon: let`s say that Shar comes with a very nasty, Faerun shaking plot. In such case Lathander, Tyr, Silvanus, Helm etc. will likely ally to counter it, while I don`t see Bane, Talos and Cyric aiding Shar in any reliable manner unless the plan to backstab her which gives good guys a huge advantage.  This is why The Pantheon I am currently creating has 4 evil, 2 neutral and only one good Deity.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 12, 2003)

> I have not yet decided if these three greater-still ranks, which comprise the esoteric Over-Choir; collectively refered to as the "Huper Ouranioi" (which roughly translated means Super Celestials) will be detailed in the Immortals Handbook (I have every rank up to and including the Seraphim).



I'd like to see them, unless it takes too much time.  At least tell us what they are or where you stumbled upon them.  



> When you have monsters that can summon beings more powerful than Ao its probably time to draw the line...then again.



I thought the whole point of this thing was not to draw any lines.  There's people who wanted to stop with Greater Gods and say everything above that was beyond statting, but you said NO! and went on.  Don't draw any lines! No limits! Keep going, my man! Ummm...yeah..alright this inspirational speech is over.


----------



## Impeesa (Jul 13, 2003)

What, is there a burning need among the gaming community for creatures who devour nothingness and crap out the essence of existance, creating whole universes as a byproduct of their breakfast?


...yes. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: Re: Should I revise the Angels?*

Hello again mate! 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *Actually I am not convinced upon good creatures being more powerful than evil ones in similar category, *




Never suggested they should be.

The question is why are Planetars and Solars now in the same category as Balors when previously they were the good aligned peers of Demon Lords/Dukes of Hell and Demon Princes/Archdevils respectively.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *the most prominent examples being outsiders and dragons, but also sphinxes or nagas.*




The Outsiders point was previously incorrect (see my initial comments above); the Dragons are pretty much staggered in power evil-good-evil-good etc. in ascending order; point taken regarding Sphinxes and Nagas - though you could probably make a case that their are far more evil monsters so the good ones need to be stronger to survive.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *My main reason is that good beings will unite to face an evil threat while those of evil alignments will fight among each other as often, if not more, as versus the followers of Light, look at The Blood War for a great example.*




Indeed.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *The same might be true concerning Deities, the usual aproach is to have similar number of Gods of any alignment on the same power level so they would balance each other, yet good  and neutral ones would most likely jointly interfere when one of The Deities of Darkness threatens the balance. Example using Faerunian Pantheon: let`s say that Shar comes with a very nasty, Faerun shaking plot. In such case Lathander, Tyr, Silvanus, Helm etc. will likely ally to counter it, while I don`t see Bane, Talos and Cyric aiding Shar in any reliable manner unless the plan to backstab her which gives good guys a huge advantage.  This is why The Pantheon I am currently creating has 4 evil, 2 neutral and only one good Deity. *




Ouch.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 13, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *I'd like to see them, unless it takes too much time.*




Its not so much the time as the inclination. I'm just not sure enough people would use them to make them anything more than a novelty.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *At least tell us what they are*




That would spoil the surprise. 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *or where you stumbled upon them. *




From a more in depth reading of Gustav Davidsons Dictionary of Angels.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *I thought the whole point of this thing was not to draw any lines.*




I don't. 

I already have the power level detailed virtually up to (almost) true infinity so that people can venture as high as they could ever want.

However, while monster stats for beings of that magnitude may well be an interesting read they are probably redundant to all but about 1% of (even) Immortal Campaigns. So I am reluctant to detail more than one being of this power gradient (you always have to have one to give people an idea) since they will see limited use and the space within the Immortals Handbook Bestiary section is limited if I want to keep the book within a respectible number of pages (ie. 320).

...this is of course where the additional Monster supplement would prove useful. 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *There's people who wanted to stop with Greater Gods and say everything above that was beyond statting, but you said NO! and went on. *




Absolutely.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Don't draw any lines! No limits! Keep going, my man! Ummm...yeah..alright this inspirational speech is over.   *


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 13, 2003)

Hi Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> *What, is there a burning need among the gaming community for creatures who devour nothingness and crap out the essence of existance, creating whole universes as a byproduct of their breakfast?
> 
> ...yes.  *




Speaking personally I'm always interested in seeing whats out there; and the more powerful the more eyecatching I guess.

The trick in devising such beings (if there is indeed a trick involved?) is giving it a purpose. Which is something of a metaphor for epic/immortal gaming itself.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 13, 2003)

Mmmm...  I'd love to see the Hyper Ouranoi somewhere.  Probably best to leave it for the monster supplement, though, where you'll have more space to play with.

Apocalypse Warriors 

 An Apoc.War. is humanoid, stands about seven feet tall, and has ruddy skin and obsidian-black hair.  Their eyes are like pits in their faces, staring out at the world with loathing, and they have bodies as sculpted and durable as adamantine statues.  Typically they wear enchanted adamantine full plate, but the 30 remaining wield all variety of weapon/shield combinations.

 HD: 80 (Somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 hit points.)
 AC: (Very high, due to equipment bonuses and natural armor.  They are vulnerable to touch attacks.)
 Attacks: They fight with weapons, and generally can strike AC's in the 80's reliably.
 Speed: 40 feet, plus they can fly at speed 100 (good).
 Saves: Very good fort, reflex, and will - Reflex is their soft spot.
 Special Qualities: Like the Atropal, they emanate a negative energy field, but it only causes two negative levels.  However, it extends a full mile in radius.  They're immune to death effects, and in fact, death effects automatically affect them as a Heal spell.  Negative energy heals them, even though they aren't undead, and positive energy also heals them.  They're immune to cold, sonic, and acid, and have Fire Resistance 40.
 Special Attacks: They can fire powerful bolts of negative energy (Empowered Energy Drain at will as a supernatural ability, CL 80) and Rebuke/Control undead as an evil cleric with a level equal to their hitdice minus ten.  Their weapons all deal an additional 6d6 points of negative energy damage on a successful strike.
 Abilities: In the 30's all around for physical scores, about 20 for all mental stats.
 Skills: Great heaps of intimidate and mobility skills.
 Alignment: Chaotic Evil.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 13, 2003)

> ...this is of course where the additional Monster supplement would prove useful.




Alright already, I'll buy the stupid thing.... Devil Temptress!!! Arrrgghhh!!!


----------



## Anubis (Jul 13, 2003)

Hey, UK, I got a challenge for you!  Try statting out something like Q from Star Trek!  I would say he's about at or over where your Time Lords would be, but I'm not sure.  Anyway, give it a shot, I'm quite interested.

Oh, also, how would you create nearly invincible cartoon creatures in the normal world that can only be hurt with three specific metals and instantly appear anywhere their name is uttered?  (I call them the Fearsome Five, and they are an annoyance in every epic game I have ever played in even before "epic" existed or ever 3E for that matter hahaha!)


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 14, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Mmmm...  I'd love to see the Hyper Ouranoi somewhere.*




Huper Ouranioi. With a 'U'. I think. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Probably best to leave it for the monster supplement, though, where you'll have more space to play with.*




Probably.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Apocalypse Warriors
> 
> An Apoc.War. is humanoid, stands about seven feet tall, and has ruddy skin and obsidian-black hair.  Their eyes are like pits in their faces, staring out at the world with loathing, and they have bodies as sculpted and durable as adamantine statues.  Typically they wear enchanted adamantine full plate, but the 30 remaining wield all variety of weapon/shield combinations.
> 
> ...




Reminds me of the Chaos Knights from the Blade of Darkness PC game.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 14, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Alright already, I'll buy the stupid thing.... Devil Temptress!!! Arrrgghhh!!! *


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 14, 2003)

Hi Anubis mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Hey, UK, I got a challenge for you!  Try statting out something like Q from Star Trek!*




Well the problem therein is that the details about the Q are very sketchy. Obviously they are not truly omnipotent since there are more than one of them.

I seem to recall over at stardestroyer.net Mike Wong wrote a fair appraisal of Q's ephemeric nature - I'll try and find that again and see if it sheds some light on the matter.



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *I would say he's about at or over where your Time Lords would be, but I'm not sure.*




After our recent chat on Messenger you probably got more details out of me on this related matter than you should have. 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Anyway, give it a shot, I'm quite interested.*




With scant solid facts about the Q I may have to resort to setting their parameters myself.



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Oh, also, how would you create nearly invincible cartoon creatures in the normal world that can only be hurt with three specific metals and instantly appear anywhere their name is uttered?  (I call them the Fearsome Five, and they are an annoyance in every epic game I have ever played in even before "epic" existed or ever 3E for that matter hahaha!) *




Simple - I would give them the Omnific Gift "Invincibility" with three noted escape clauses tying them to existence.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 16, 2003)

Hi all! 

Last night I worked out the D&D stats for Godzilla, so I'll tidy that up when I get 3.5 and post it up on my website for its launch. Hopefully I can add a new monster a week therein. 

In fact that might be an interesting feature. Any requests for classic 'epic' or 'immortal' calibre monsters (try and be non-pantheon specific since I plan to detail pantheons and their monsters in the Immortals Index).

Also if anyone has any general suggestions about what they would like to see on the website itself now would be a good time.


----------



## Necropolis (Jul 16, 2003)

Hi Upper_Krust  
i have some questions that you don't like to answer becuse a lot of other pepole ask you them but i will ask again  

1) do you know when your book will be out ?  ( at least around one of the near monthes ) and what will be the cost ?

2) it will be a big book or like 5 smaller books ? 

3) it will be as a PDF ? or a printed book ?

4) about spells , how do you use them in your book ( epic level spells ( i  think that this system suck ) , 10+ level spells ( i think that it's the best system like the original spells ) or other original system of yours and so on......

5) i think that you HAVE to create the " super angels " as you call them
it will be so cool  

6) for epic level creautures do you have new undeads ? what about epic wizards and liches ?

7) are you going to use the core classes as epic classes with more powers ? like a very powerfull paladin at higher levels that can transform into an angelic being and through time can go up in the ranks of the angels up to the most powerfull one ?

8) about prestige classes , do you have legendary prestige classes or something more unique ? can you give some names and descriptions or new ones ?

9) when your web site will be done ?

10) are you planing to give us some previews or PDF teasers in the near future ?


as for your question i think that you can detail :

loch ness monster , donkey kong .

as for things to do on the web site :

previews and teasers on upcoming products
art section
stories section  ( stories of the monsters from the immortal handbook )
ideas section ( a place to wright down ideas of other members on epic level things and monsters )

hope that helps

Thanks


----------



## Derulbaskul (Jul 16, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *(snip)Also if anyone has any general suggestions about what they would like to see on the website itself now would be a good time.  *




Howdy U_K,

I would really like to see some of your campaign notes or story hours. I'm a long-time lurker who has followed the news of your IH project since you first announced it on the original EN boards and I would like to know a little bit more... oops, a lot more, about how your extremely high level campaigns actually play in practice. Does that make sense?

Anyway, consider me another committed purchaser! 

Cheers
D


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 16, 2003)

Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Hi Upper_Krust
> i have some questions that you don't like to answer becuse a lot of other pepole ask you them but i will ask again  *



* 

I'm not Krust, but I know the answer to some of these.




			2) it will be a big book or like 5 smaller books ?
3) it will be as a PDF ? or a printed book ?
		
Click to expand...



Both - It'll be first released as as series of small PDF's, and eventually as one large printed volume.




			5) i think that you HAVE to create the " super angels " as you call them
it will be so cool 

Click to expand...



I am in firm agreement!  After all, Krusty, the primary audience for your work isn't just people with divine campaigns, but also power junkies.  High numbers are our meat and drink.




			6) for epic level creautures do you have new undeads ? what about epic wizards and liches?
		
Click to expand...



I don't know for sure, but there's bound to be SOMETHING.




			7) are you going to use the core classes as epic classes with more powers ? like a very powerfull paladin at higher levels that can transform into an angelic being and through time can go up in the ranks of the angels up to the most powerfull one ?
		
Click to expand...



He hasn't said anything about this.  Probably not.  There may be a prestige class like this or something.




			8) about prestige classes , do you have legendary prestige classes or something more unique ? can you give some names and descriptions or new ones ?
		
Click to expand...



Yes!  Give us names!




			10) are you planing to give us some previews or PDF teasers in the near future ?
		
Click to expand...



I don't think he is, no.*


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 16, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi all!
> 
> Last night I worked out the D&D stats for Godzilla, so I'll tidy that up when I get 3.5 and post it up on my website for its launch. Hopefully I can add a new monster a week therein. *



*

Very cool, UK.




			In fact that might be an interesting feature. Any requests for classic 'epic' or 'immortal' calibre monsters (try and be non-pantheon specific since I plan to detail pantheons and their monsters in the Immortals Index).
		
Click to expand...



I request that you stat Scylla and Charybdis.




			Also if anyone has any general suggestions about what they would like to see on the website itself now would be a good time. 

Click to expand...


*
Porn.  Epic level porn.  And lots of it!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 16, 2003)

Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Hi Upper_Krust *




Hi Necropolis mate! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *i have some questions that you don't like to answer becuse a lot of other people ask you them but i will ask again *




I always forget anyway so ask away! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Thats 1) do you know when your book will be out ?  ( at least around one of the near monthes ) and what will be the cost ?*




The first pdf should be out sometime in August (I hope).

It is 128 pages and will likely be about $7.95 (I think).



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *2) it will be a big book or like 5 smaller books ?
> 
> 3) it will be as a PDF ? or a printed book ?*




It will be released as four pdfs then they will be combined into one printed book (320 pages).



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *4) about spells , how do you use them in your book ( epic level spells ( i  think that this system suck ) , 10+ level spells ( i think that it's the best system like the original spells ) or other original system of yours and so on......*




I did develop my own system before the epic rules emerged which had true spells of 10th; 11th; 12th etc. level.

Since then I have made some modifications to the epic spell system so that I can utilise that.

Is the general consensus here that the epic level spell system sucks? You are not the first person to tell me you are unhappy with them.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *5) i think that you HAVE to create the " super angels " as you call them it will be so cool *




The thing is that I already have lots of angels, up to as powerful as CR 277 (on the last count) so I don't know if I need more in there. I already have about 15% of the Bestiary detailing angels (including a few secret fallen ones you won't have heard of).



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *6) for epic level creautures do you have new undeads ?*




I have some nasty new Epic Level Undead. 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *what about epic wizards and liches ?*




Can you be more specific here not sure what you're asking?



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *7) are you going to use the core classes as epic classes with more powers? like a very powerfull paladin at higher levels that can transform into an angelic being and through time can go up in the ranks of the angels up to the most powerfull one ?*




I use Templates to detail divinity. Then more Templates to detail Portfolios.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *8) about prestige classes , do you have legendary prestige classes or something more unique ? can you give some names and descriptions or new ones ?*




I have 13 Prestige Classes half detailed but I am not convinced they are intrinsic to the rules...?

The Portfolios are more akin to Immortal 'Prestige Classes' in my opinion.

So I may have the Prestige Classes in somewhere if I can find the space; otherwise I'll detail them at sometime in the future, perhaps on the website if all else fails.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *9) when your web site will be done ?*




I'll try and get it sorted within the next two weeks.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *10) are you planing to give us some previews or PDF teasers in the near future ?*




I'll have some previews before the Immortals Handbook is released, possibly when I launch the website though maybe shortly after.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *as for your question i think that you can detail :
> 
> loch ness monster , donkey kong .*




I may do a serpent type monster; although I was thinking more in terms of the Lambton Worm.

I would have thought King Kong was more appropriate unless you know something about Donkey Kong I don't? 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *as for things to do on the web site :
> 
> previews and teasers on upcoming products*




Absolutely.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *art section*




Indeed.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *stories section  ( stories of the monsters from the immortal handbook )*




Great idea! I hadn't thought of that.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *ideas section ( a place to wright down ideas of other members on epic level things and monsters )*




Another great idea! Excellent stuff.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *hope that helps *




Fantastic, thanks.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 16, 2003)

Hi Anabster mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I am in firm agreement!  After all, Krusty, the primary audience for your work isn't just people with divine campaigns, but also power junkies.  High numbers are our meat and drink.*




You want the truth!? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!! 

I explained the second-to top rank divinity to Anubis on messenger the other night and he almost wet himself. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I don't know for sure, but there's bound to be SOMETHING.*




I think there are at least five undead in there last time I checked.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *He hasn't said anything about this.  Probably not.  There may be a prestige class like this or something.*




I have more Immortal Abilities than the number of feats in the PHB and all the splat books combined. That should keep you busy for a while. These abilities can also be gained by Mortals (don't ask how though, my lips are sealed).  



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Yes!  Give us names!*




But won't that spoil the surprises? 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I don't think he is, no. *




Shows what you know!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 16, 2003)

Hello again mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Very cool, UK.*




Godzilla seemed appropriate somehow. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I request that you stat Scylla and Charybdis.*




Scylla will be in the Greek Pantheon I detail for the Immortals Index.

Charibdis is actually just a big whirlpool; though I suppose you could use a Primal Water Elemental or something.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Porn.  Epic level porn.  And lots of it!  *




Easy Tiger!


----------



## Necropolis (Jul 16, 2003)

HI again u_k 

when i mean for epic liches i mean do you have new types of liches or a tamplete for new epic undead spellcaster like a lich ?

as for the spells in the immortal handbook , what option did you select the modified epic level system or the normal 10+ level spells in the final book

i did mean king kong   stupid me!  

do you have some art that you can share with us ?

Thanks

by the way it doesn't matter if you will have a lot of angels , it will be great
after all , we want to see how the MOST powerfull archangel look like and how much power he has  

Thanks


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 16, 2003)

Alright rapid fire: I thought the Epic Spell system sucked.  
I certainly wouldn't mind more angels, personally I don't think good get enough attention.  
I wouldn't say power is our meat and drink, more like our crack.  You can understand why it would be bad to cut us off, eh Krusty?


----------



## Anubis (Jul 16, 2003)

I think the epic magic system sucks as well, and I'm pretty certain everybody would agree.  It just sucks.  Thre's no power whatsoever in it, as the Spellcraft DCs are too high for the power you get out of them.  I am a firm believer that "epic spells" and normal epic spells should be seperated.  IF you can fix the epic spell system, call them Epic Dweomers and keep them seperate (maybe even letting non-spellcasters access them perhaps to show that they're not "true" spells).

In addition to Epic Dweomers (like current epic spells, assuming the system can be fixed), I personally put in ACTUAL spells above Level 9.  (Ice Darts from the Tome of Mighty Magic is a Level 19 spell and is terribly powerful.)

So basically I have two systems, epic dweomers and epic spells.  Epic dweomers are what are now called epic spells, while epic spells are spells above Level 9.



*Ice Darts* 
Necromancy [Cold]
*Level:* Sor/Wiz 19
*Components:* S
*Casting Time:* 1 round
*Range:* Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
*Target:* One ice dart/level
*Duration:* Instantaneous
*Saving Throw:* Fortitude partial
*Spell Resistance:* No

This spell creates 1 ice dart per level of the spellcaster, which fly from the caster's fingers always striking their target(s).  For each dart, the creature struck must save or be frozen (dead).  If the saving throw is made, the creature takes 1d6 points of cold damage per two caster levels.



My only beef is that by Level 50, everything is immune to all energy types anyway, so should this spell be lower than Level 19?


----------



## Necropolis (Jul 16, 2003)

Hi 
yes , just create normal 10+ level spells

and anubis , spells above 9th level are not like other spells
what i mean is that a 10th level spell and a 11th level spell are very different and a 11th level spell is much more powerfull then a 10th level spell
it's not like a 3rd level spell and a 4th level spell

also you don't get 10th+ level spells at the rate that you get regular spells 
if you know the forgotten realms in the netheril times there were 10th , 11th and 1 12th level spells
and you got 10th level spells at level 20 i think and 11th level spells mush later like at level 30 i think becuse there power of the spells was much more powerfull then regular spells

i think that normal 10th+ level spells are the way to go
they are not so hard to understand and there is not even 1 product out there with high level spells


----------



## Anubis (Jul 16, 2003)

Actually, my proposition would keep gaining spell levels the same.  In other words, Improved Spell Capacity is how you get all spell levels above 9.  I am not looking to make a drastic change to the core rules here, just make ACTUAL spells at Level 10+ instead of having only metamagic spells.

Basically, I make "epic spells" and "epic magic" different things, but both are still obtained the way they are now.  I just put Level 10+ spells in and someone needs to fix the "epic spells" system.  I tried and failed to find a good way, but maybe UK can do something.

The Tome of Mighty Magic has extremely high level spells in it.  That's where Ice Darts came from.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 16, 2003)

No, I think that spells above 9th level SHOULD be like normal spells.  The rate of power acquisition should progress at whatever rate is necessary to maintain balance.

What other fun spells are in the tome of Mighty Magic, Anubis?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 16, 2003)

Necropolis said:
			
		

> *HI again u_k *




Hiya mate! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *when i mean for epic liches i mean do you have new types of liches or a tamplete for new epic undead spellcaster like a lich ?*




Yes.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *as for the spells in the immortal handbook , what option did you select the modified epic level system or the normal 10+ level spells in the final book*




Well I was planning to use a modified version of the epic spell system but I could easily 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *i did mean king kong   stupid me!  *




LOL! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *do you have some art that you can share with us ?*




I'll have an art preview on the website. 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *by the way it doesn't matter if you will have a lot of angels , it will be great after all , we want to see how the MOST powerfull archangel look like and how much power he has  *




Lots.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 16, 2003)

Hello Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Alright rapid fire: I thought the Epic Spell system sucked.*








			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *I certainly wouldn't mind more angels, personally I don't think good get enough attention.*




Indeed.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *I wouldn't say power is our meat and drink, more like our crack.  You can understand why it would be bad to cut us off, eh Krusty?   *




I couldn't have that on my conscience.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 16, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *I think the epic magic system sucks as well, and I'm pretty certain everybody would agree.  It just sucks.  Thre's no power whatsoever in it, as the Spellcraft DCs are too high for the power you get out of them.  I am a firm believer that "epic spells" and normal epic spells should be seperated.  IF you can fix the epic spell system, call them Epic Dweomers and keep them seperate (maybe even letting non-spellcasters access them perhaps to show that they're not "true" spells).
> 
> In addition to Epic Dweomers (like current epic spells, assuming the system can be fixed), I personally put in ACTUAL spells above Level 9.  (Ice Darts from the Tome of Mighty Magic is a Level 19 spell and is terribly powerful.)
> 
> ...




It would be incredibly easy to modify the spell system to incorporate these types of spells. In fact its something I will strongly consider doing.

Theres no way Ice Darts is 19th-level though...(Edit) then again 'No Spell Resistance' is probably worth a bit.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 16, 2003)

Hello guys! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Hi  yes , just create normal 10+ level spells
> 
> and anubis , spells above 9th level are not like other spells
> what i mean is that a 10th level spell and a 11th level spell are very different and a 11th level spell is much more powerfull then a 10th level spell
> ...






			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Actually, my proposition would keep gaining spell levels the same. In other words, Improved Spell Capacity is how you get all spell levels above 9. I am not looking to make a drastic change to the core rules here, just make ACTUAL spells at Level 10+ instead of having only metamagic spells.
> 
> Basically, I make "epic spells" and "epic magic" different things, but both are still obtained the way they are now. I just put Level 10+ spells in and someone needs to fix the "epic spells" system. I tried and failed to find a good way, but maybe UK can do something.
> 
> The Tome of Mighty Magic has extremely high level spells in it. That's where Ice Darts came from.*




Two things:

I can and will create a simple and elegant alternative spell system. 

I wouldn't call the spells in the Tome of Mighty Magic 'that' high level.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 16, 2003)

Hi Anabster mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *No, I think that spells above 9th level SHOULD be like normal spells.  The rate of power acquisition should progress at whatever rate is necessary to maintain balance.*




I think thats the easiest way to incorporate things.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *What other fun spells are in the tome of Mighty Magic, Anubis? *




You can download it here (although Anubis tells me its a sort of modified version):

http://members.amethyst-alliance.com/Dino/Netbooks.htm

Choose the Tome of Mighty Magic (Part 2) - I can't seem to get the first part to work properly.


----------



## Anubis (Jul 17, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> I explained the second-to top rank divinity to Anubis on messenger the other night and he almost wet himself.
> *




 

Whoa!  Wait a sec!  A CR 80,000 deity is only the SECOND highest rank of divinity?!  WTF?!

 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> I wouldn't call the spells in the Tome of Mighty Magic 'that' high level.
> *




You wouldn't call a spell that wipes someone out of existence with no saving throw, a spell that removes all class levels and makes the victim a Level 1 Commoner, or a spell that prevents a character from ever again gaining XP "that" powerful?!  These spells are game-enders!  Are you on crack again, Krusty?!



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> You can download it here (although Anubis tells me its a sort of modified version):
> 
> http://members.amethyst-alliance.com/Dino/Netbooks.htm
> ...




Yeah, it's not the original.  The original had a lot of unusable stuff indeed, but a lot of the most powerful cool stuff is great.  Palladium had a few good spells in it as well.  Don't mess with Anti-Magic Cloud!  Ha!


----------



## Dark Wolf 97 (Jul 17, 2003)

Believe it or not there are those of us that actually like the Epic Spell system (ME!). Of course it is underpowered, but 'ol Krusty has said that he modified it, which means for the better.  

CR 80,000 is second highest? Cool.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 17, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Whoa!  Wait a sec!  A CR 80,000 deity is only the SECOND highest rank of divinity?!  WTF?!
> 
> *




No, CR 80,000 is just that special character we talked about (but mums the word Anubis mate, I'm sure theres no need to spoil it for the rest).

When I talked about the second-highest being I meant the one with the CR of Eight Quindecillion. 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *You wouldn't call a spell that wipes someone out of existence with no saving throw, a spell that removes all class levels and makes the victim a Level 1 Commoner, or a spell that prevents a character from ever again gaining XP "that" powerful?! *




No.



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *These spells are game-enders!  Are you on crack again, Krusty?!*




Well last night I worked out a 20 millionth level spell so I suppose I could be. 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Yeah, it's not the original.  The original had a lot of unusable stuff indeed, but a lot of the most powerful cool stuff is great.  Palladium had a few good spells in it as well.  Don't mess with Anti-Magic Cloud!  Ha! *


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 17, 2003)

Hi Dark Wolf mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> *Believe it or not there are those of us that actually like the Epic Spell system (ME!). Of course it is underpowered, but 'ol Krusty has said that he modified it, which means for the better.  *




Well what I could do is detail my new high level spells but also add in my changes for the epic spell system for those who want to use that.

I guess I could add in the epic spell details to the standard spell details without any difficulty. That way you can have the best of both worlds. 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> *CR 80,000 is second highest? Cool.  *




Nope thats the sixty ninth highest.


----------



## Necropolis (Jul 17, 2003)

Hi
o man i just can't wait fo this book !
just give us something U_K !!!


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 17, 2003)

*Whoa, hold up!*

A spell that annihilates a characters potential to ever rise in level again, or nullifies ALL his levels with no chance of recovery, is unbalanced at ANY level.  If you throw spells like that in, make sure they're optional and that the game can function without them at the levels of play they're for, because I'm not letting anything irreversably destructive as that NEAR my game.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 17, 2003)

*PDF Questions.*

Krust, you said the first PDF will cost about $8, right?  How much for the other three?  Also on the subject of cash, all these extra products you've mentioned (monster supplement, and Immortals Index), how much are they gonna set me back?  

Anyone else who cares to answer: I've never done the PDF thing before and I was curious what you people do to get a hard copy of the thing?  Print it out?  Seems like a bit of a waist for something like 320 pages.  Is there any better way about it?  Also, what happens if there's some kind of technical error in downloading?  I'm out eight bucks?  or what?  

And at Krust again, you want epic/immortal calib(er/re) beings to stat?  Whaddabout Superman?  I'd like to see that.


----------



## Anubis (Jul 17, 2003)

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> *Believe it or not there are those of us that actually like the Epic Spell system (ME!). Of course it is underpowered, but 'ol Krusty has said that he modified it, which means for the better.
> 
> CR 80,000 is second highest? Cool.  *




I LIKE the old system as far as the system itself goes, but the execution is terrible and pretty much unusable.  I mean it's DC 47 or so to cast a 1 action spell that deals 20d6 damage, and most epic spellcasters would need a high roll to make such a check for such a pitifully weak spell.  (It's weak in that by the level you can use the spell, anything else you can do is better.)

One idea is to just cut all DCs by half . . .


----------



## Anubis (Jul 17, 2003)

*Re: Whoa, hold up!*



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *A spell that annihilates a characters potential to ever rise in level again, or nullifies ALL his levels with no chance of recovery, is unbalanced at ANY level.  If you throw spells like that in, make sure they're optional and that the game can function without them at the levels of play they're for, because I'm not letting anything irreversably destructive as that NEAR my game. *




No . . . One spell (No Class) makes a character a Level 1 Commoner.  A SEPERATE spell (As You Are) terminates a character's ability to ever gain XP or levels.  BOTH of these have saving throws though.

The really scary one (Eradication) annihilates a character from existence (space AND time) completely with no saving throw.  That one is a very weird spell.  Here is the actual spell:

*Eradication* 
Transmutation [Teleportation]
*Level:* Sor/Wiz 20
*Components:* V
*Casting Time:* 1 action
*Range:* Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
*Target:* One creature
*Duration:* Instantaneous
*Saving Throw:* None
*Spell Resistance:* No

This spell is very rare and all-powerful.  The victim will cease to exist, will vanish from the multiverse and even from the minds of those who knew him/her or knew of him/her.  Great deeds accomplished by the victim will be accredited to someone else.  Items possessed by the victim will be scattered to various hoards of powerful monsters (who will remember them being there all along, of course!) in the far flung reaches of the multiverse.  _Note: No creature living remembers ever successfully casting this spell.  Mortals get NO SAVING THROW.  Divine creastures are unaffected._ 

Anyway, I imagine that most of UK's book will have similarly powerful abilities, so if you don't like 'em, you're probably better off staying away from ultra-epic levels.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 17, 2003)

Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Hi*




Hiya mate! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *o man i just can't wait fo this book !*




I appreciate the love! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *just give us something U_K !!! *




I'll have previews when I get the website up.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 17, 2003)

*Re: Whoa, hold up!*

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *A spell that annihilates a characters potential to ever rise in level again, or nullifies ALL his levels with no chance of recovery, is unbalanced at ANY level.  If you throw spells like that in, make sure they're optional and that the game can function without them at the levels of play they're for, because I'm not letting anything irreversably destructive as that NEAR my game. *




All things are possible eventually, otherwise theres little incentive to ascend.

That said you should know by now I am the 'guv'nor of balance' so don't worry you're in safe hands.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 17, 2003)

*Re: PDF Questions.*



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Krust, you said the first PDF will cost about $8, right?*




Probably.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *How much for the other three?*




Probably $5 for the Grimoire; $8 for the Bestiary and $5 for the Chronicle.

The reason the Bestiary costs so much is because it has so much art.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Also on the subject of cash, all these extra products you've mentioned (monster supplement, and Immortals Index), how much are they gonna set me back?*




Well its too early to say, obviously it will depend on the page count. I'm guessing probably $6 or thereabouts.  



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Anyone else who cares to answer: I've never done the PDF thing before and I was curious what you people do to get a hard copy of the thing?  Print it out?  Seems like a bit of a waist for something like 320 pages.  Is there any better way about it?*




You could always print it out from work/university...?



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Also, what happens if there's some kind of technical error in downloading?  I'm out eight bucks?  or what?*




I would imagine there are provisos for this. 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *And at Krust again, you want epic/immortal calib(er/re) beings to stat?  Whaddabout Superman?  I'd like to see that. *




Good idea mate. 

On the subject of comics I think I may also detail Galactus on the website ~ I've always wanted stats for him. So he might be another contender.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 17, 2003)

Hi Anubis mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *I LIKE the old system as far as the system itself goes, but the execution is terrible and pretty much unusable.  I mean it's DC 47 or so to cast a 1 action spell that deals 20d6 damage, and most epic spellcasters would need a high roll to make such a check for such a pitifully weak spell.  (It's weak in that by the level you can use the spell, anything else you can do is better.)
> 
> One idea is to just cut all DCs by half . . . *




Interesting idea that may be worth exploring.


Incidently I forgot to mention that I picked up 3.5 today so I hope to have a good read of those books over the next few days. 

Unfortunately we didn't get a consignment of the Conversion Manuals so I will have to wait a while for those but I think someone over on dicefreaks already volunteered most of the ELH/D&Dg information.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 17, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Probably $5 for the Grimoire; $8 for the Bestiary and $5 for the Chronicle.
> *




26 bucks, this morning I guestimitated $25.50.  Not too shabby.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Well its too early to say, obviously it will depend on the page count. I'm guessing probably $6 or thereabouts.
> *



 I can live with that 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> You could always print it out from work/university...?
> *




Sure, It'll just have to be somebody else's work or university.   
You seem to forget I'm just a kid.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 17, 2003)

*Re: Re: Whoa, hold up!*

Hello again mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *No . . . One spell (No Class) makes a character a Level 1 Commoner.  A SEPERATE spell (As You Are) terminates a character's ability to ever gain XP or levels.  BOTH of these have saving throws though.
> 
> The really scary one (Eradication) annihilates a character from existence (space AND time) completely with no saving throw.  That one is a very weird spell.  Here is the actual spell:
> 
> ...




We actually had a 9th-level spell in our game (Developed by Doomstar the 500th-level Wizard/Psionicist) called Soul Kill which destroyed any being permanently who failed their saving throw. It worked on gods even if they weren't on their home plane.



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Anyway, I imagine that most of UK's book will have similarly powerful abilities, so if you don't like 'em, you're probably better off staying away from ultra-epic levels. *




If the spells are properly balanced I don't have a problem with any measure of power...you should know that by now.

Like I said earlier I developed a 20 millionth level spell and I consider it perfectly balanced.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 17, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *26 bucks, this morning I guestimitated $25.50.  Not too shabby.*




Page for page its probably one of the most inexpensive pdfs out there.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *I can live with that  *




Between about 64 and 80 pages I'm anticipating.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Sure, It'll just have to be somebody else's work or university.   *




What about school?



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *You seem to forget I'm just a kid. *




I'm so confused I keep thinking you're norse.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 17, 2003)

> What about school?



If I attempted to print several hundred pages from the school computers, I think they'd crucify me.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 17, 2003)

Hello! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> * If I attempted to print several hundred pages from the school computers, I think they'd crucify me. *




Well I don't know about you but that seems a tad harsh.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 17, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Whoa, hold up!*



> _Originally posted by Upper_Krust _We actually had a 9th-level spell in our game (Developed by Doomstar the 500th-level Wizard/Psionicist) called Soul Kill which destroyed any being permanently who failed their saving throw. It worked on gods even if they weren't on their home plane.




Overpowered, unless it took some really bitchin casting time and material components.



> If the spells are properly balanced I don't have a problem with any measure of power...you should know that by now.




True.  But you know, at any level, you can undo with magic anything you can do.  Slay Living is countered by Raise Dead, Destruction by Resurrection...  If you can wipe someone from existence, it better be possible to make a Will save to remember that they exist and then use chronomantic magic to pluck them from the past just before they were Eradicated.  If you can't recover your character somehow, a lot of the fun of long term development goes away.  True, many DM's nix resurrection from the dead - But that's an option.  Make sure you always make healing a possibility.

Could you Violate the Eradication spell? 



> Like I said earlier I developed a 20 millionth level spell and I consider it perfectly balanced.




Post it.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, hold up!*

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Overpowered, unless it took some really bitchin casting time and material components.*




Casting Time was (then) 9 segments (for those that remember AD&D).

You had both Spell Resistance and a Saving Throw; as well as the possibility of Spell Turning.

I never thought it was overpowered to the extent that it was broken but then again there were no Quickened spells back then. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *True.  But you know, at any level, you can undo with magic anything you can do.  Slay Living is countered by Raise Dead, Destruction by Resurrection...*




Generally speaking yes.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *If you can wipe someone from existence, it better be possible to make a Will save to remember that they exist and then use chronomantic magic to pluck them from the past just before they were Eradicated.  If you can't recover your character somehow, a lot of the fun of long term development goes away.  True, many DM's nix resurrection from the dead - But that's an option.  Make sure you always make healing a possibility.*




I am sure there is a key for every lock.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Could you Violate the Eradication spell?  *




I don't know what you mean? 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Post it.  *




It might end up using it, so we will see. If not I will post it on the website in due course.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, hold up!*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!




Hi there!



> Casting Time was (then) 9 segments (for those that remember AD&D).




That's like a Full Round casting time these days, right?  9/10ths of a round.



> You had both Spell Resistance and a Saving Throw; as well as the possibility of Spell Turning.




Spell turning would keep you wary.  And at those levels, a saving throw was nearly assured.



> I never thought it was overpowered to the extent that it was broken but then again there were no Quickened spells back then.




Quickened Eradication!  The Momentor Mori.



> I am sure there is a key for every lock.




Most excellent.  Who can reach further back in time?  Who controls the past controls the future.



> I don't know what you mean?




It's a feat from the Book of Vile Darkness.  Makes all damage done by a spell in to Vile damage, which can only be healed on Hallowed ground.  Makes it a real bitch to undo, especially if it's a death effect.



> It might end up using it, so we will see. If not I will post it on the website in due course.




Glee!


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 18, 2003)

Anubis said:
			
		

> *I mean it's DC 47 or so to cast a 1 action spell that deals 20d6 damage... *




Actually, it's far worse than that. Check it out...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 19, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whoa, hold up!*



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Hi there!*




Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *That's like a Full Round casting time these days, right?  9/10ths of a round.*




That spell would be one standard action in 3rd Edition. Though you are right in saying it was 9/10ths of a round. So was pretty much every 9th-level spell.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Spell turning would keep you wary. *




Unless you were facing Doomstar. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *And at those levels, a saving throw was nearly assured.*




The tension of the Russian Roulette saving throws still sends a shiver down my spine.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Quickened Eradication!  The Momentor Mori.*




Oh, okay.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Most excellent.  Who can reach further back in time?  Who controls the past controls the future.*




Not necessarily, but I don't want to explain time travel herein. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *It's a feat from the Book of Vile Darkness.  Makes all damage done by a spell in to Vile damage, which can only be healed on Hallowed ground.  Makes it a real bitch to undo, especially if it's a death effect.*




Sounds like the poor mans 'Permanent' Damage effect.

...but who would be nasty enough to exploit that. 

...other than the Lavawight in the ELH I mean. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Glee!  *


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 19, 2003)

Hi kreynolds mate! 



			
				kreynolds said:
			
		

> *Actually, it's far worse than that. Check it out... *




I read that thread, thanks.

Clearly the problem is more severe than I imagined.

So its fortunate that I have already come up with an improved spell system which is simpler, quicker, more balanced and more flexible (derived in no small part from the system I developed before the epic rules).

There are still a few decisions to be made and I will need to do some testing. Also I want to make sure I can create any spell with the new system and hopefully conjure up an Epic Spell Conversion system.

I'm actually very excited about this; its all looking great so far!


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 19, 2003)

Somebody suggested I print the pdf's out through Kinko's.  Would that work?  Is it a good idea?  Has anyone here done it before?


----------



## Yair (Jul 19, 2003)

*Demons*

Just thought I'd ask: I know the IH will deal with the relationship between deities and their supplicants, and I do believe that it will give me good ideas on what the interests of the gods are, what they know and can do, and so on. As such, I'm looking forward to buying it.... for a long time now...
I was wondering, hoewver, if there was a place in the system for beings who aren't quite gods, but still have worshippers, or at least cultists. Like demons. Will the IH include such guidelines?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 19, 2003)

*Re: Demons*

Hi there Yair! 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> *Just thought I'd ask: I know the IH will deal with the relationship between deities and their supplicants, and I do believe that it will give me good ideas on what the interests of the gods are, what they know and can do, and so on. As such, I'm looking forward to buying it.... for a long time now...*




I appreciate the support mate! 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> *I was wondering, hoewver, if there was a place in the system for beings who aren't quite gods, but still have worshippers, or at least cultists. Like demons. Will the IH include such guidelines? *




Yes. I have this all covered as well as a comprehensive breakdown of beings that touch the divine, but are not quite immortal.

I should also add that I vastly expand on various hierarchies of the planes.

I also don't hold the same notion as WotC that demons _et al_ are 'hamstrung' at quasi-deity status. I do so loathe that sort of arbitrary nonsense.

I hope that answers your questions?


----------



## Yair (Jul 19, 2003)

Ahhh, but you do know to whet my appetite... 

Your work does seem very thurough. Hopefully not long now...
BTW, the pdfs would be available through RPGNow, wouldn't they?

The waiting,
   Yair


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 19, 2003)

Hello again Yair mate! 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> *Ahhh, but you do know to whet my appetite...*




There is A LOT of stuff I am holding back from telling people because I don't want to spoil all the surprises. 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> *Your work does seem very thurough. *




I'm trying. 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> *Hopefully not long now...*




I hope so too. 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> *BTW, the pdfs would be available through RPGNow, wouldn't they?*




Thats the plan.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> *The waiting,
> Yair *




All good things...


----------



## Kerrick (Jul 20, 2003)

I scanned through this thread, and I'm really interested to see what you've got to offer. I downloaded the CR charts you posted, and they're invaluable (even if I have to guesstimate on some things). The Brood is also working on a Legendary Handbook (for 20+ level play); our campaign world has been around for 20+ years, and epic-level play is a large part of the world. 



> So its fortunate that I have already come up with an improved spell system which is simpler, quicker, more balanced and more flexible (derived in no small part from the system I developed before the epic rules).




  Hmm... I've also come up with an alternate, level-based system, which seems to work, though I haven't had the chance to playtest it (our epic campaign is on hold for a few months while we get things caught up in the campaign world and get the LHB at least partially done). I have written up about 60 spells, and they are all reasonably balanced, so it bodes well for the system.

Oh yeah - I Dl'ed the Tomes; you have to use Notepad to open the first one. I scanned through some of the spells... the majority of them are badly written, and many of them are way off in level,  but there are a few gems here and there.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi there Kerrick! 



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> *I scanned through this thread, and I'm really interested to see what you've got to offer.*




Thanks I appreciate the interestmate! 



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> *I downloaded the CR charts you posted, and they're invaluable (even if I have to guesstimate on some things). *




Just to let you know the pdfs I posted are merely work in progress; prototypes if you will. Version 4 (which I am currently finishing off) will (I think) be the definitive treatise on CR/EL.

I plan on sending it to Dragon Magazine, as was suggested by Ed Stark.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> *The Brood is also working on a Legendary Handbook (for 20+ level play);*




Excellent. I had hoped I wasn't the only one!  

The problem I have found with writing the book I always wanted to read is that it doesn't have the same feeling of anticipation and surprise. Its like you already know what you're getting for Christmas. 

So I will be really looking forward to whatever Epic/Immortal material other people come up with! You can definately count on me to get your book. 



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> *our campaign world has been around for 20+ years, and epic-level play is a large part of the world.*




Our campaign has been active for almost that long as well. I have been playing the same Immortal character on/off for over 15 years.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> *Hmm... I've also come up with an alternate, level-based system, which seems to work, though I haven't had the chance to playtest it*




I developed a system about 18 months ago (prior to the Epic Level Handbook). I was planning on using the Epic Spell System but too many people have related that they are unhappy with it. Though I still hope to have an adequate conversion system (and a few chanes I was planning to instigate) for the few that still plan on using the epic spell system.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> *(our epic campaign is on hold for a few months while we get things caught up in the campaign world and get the LHB at least partially done). *




Coincidentally enough the immortal aspects of our campaign have been on hiatus until I finish the IH.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> *I have written up about 60 spells, and they are all reasonably balanced, so it bodes well for the system.*




I have written a similar number of spells (not counting modified versions of current spells).



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> *Oh yeah - I Dl'ed the Tomes; you have to use Notepad to open the first one. *




I have notepad, but when I open the first one the formatting is all crushed together. I was able to view the second one easy enough though.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> *I scanned through some of the spells... the majority of them are badly written, and many of them are way off in level,  but there are a few gems here and there. *




It was an interesting read, though I agree it has balance issues and there were few truly high level concepts. Enjoyable though.


----------



## Necropolis (Jul 21, 2003)

Hi
cool two new product on high level play
i don't mind getting all of the products out there as long as they will be good products and i am know that they will be  

anyway u_k are you going to detail strongholds or how to build strongholds for high level players ?

Thanks


----------



## Grum_l (Jul 21, 2003)

Hi all!

U_K, do you have creatures like Fenrir, Jormungandr or Kezef in your book?

Perhaps you can post them on your website.

I can´t wait for the IH!  

I have an Overdeity in my campaign and want new ways to stat him! It is a symbiotic being (chosen mortal host and immortal symbiont). Until now, I don´t know how to combine them.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 21, 2003)

Hi Necropolis mate! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Hi cool two new product on high level play i don't mind getting all of the products out there as long as they will be good products and i am know that they will be  *




More the merrier as far as I am concerned. 

High-level play has such a bad reputation (and wrongly so) that I feel it is almost my duty to 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *anyway u_k are you going to detail strongholds or how to build strongholds for high level players ? *




Well if you mean Immortal strongholds (as well as demon/devil etc.) then yes.

This is covered in the Chronicle pdf (the fourth one).

I also have rules for determining (approximately) how many servants/petitioners such realms support.

So say you wanted to create a Demon Lord (for example). You would know the physical parameters of its realm, the number of Demons under its command (of every type) and how many are stationed at its stronghold at any one time etc.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 21, 2003)

Speaking of sections of the book, What's gonna be in each section?  

Also, I hate to be so off topic, and whatnot, but hasn't anyone ever used Kinko's to print stuff of this nature?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 21, 2003)

Grum_l said:
			
		

> *Hi all!*




Hey there Grum! 

...and welcome to the boards.



			
				Grum_l said:
			
		

> *U_K, do you have creatures like Fenrir, Jormungandr or Kezef in your book?*




I have 64 Monsters in the Bestiary section of the Immortals Handbook.

But none of these are technically Pantheon specific. I am saving these for the Immortals Index.



			
				Grum_l said:
			
		

> *Perhaps you can post them on your website.*




If they don't make it into the Immortals Index then absolutely. Though I am sure Fenris; Jormungandr and Garm will be in the Norse Pantheon Chapter of the Immortals Index. 



			
				Grum_l said:
			
		

> *I can´t wait for the IH! *




Thanks so much! I appreciate the interest mate.  



			
				Grum_l said:
			
		

> *I have an Overdeity in my campaign and want new ways to stat him! It is a symbiotic being (chosen mortal host and immortal symbiont). Until now, I don´t know how to combine them.  *




Should be simplicity itself with the IH, all you need do is add the Overgod Template to the Mortal.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 21, 2003)

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Speaking of sections of the book, What's gonna be in each section?*




Well...very briefly (I'll save a more extensive preview for the website):

- Apotheosis: Core Rules; Divinity; Portfolios; Gifts (Powers); Iconic PCs

- Grimoire: Magic/Spells; Magic Items/Artifacts

- Bestiary: Monsters

- Chronicle: Realms; Campaigns; Adventures



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Also, I hate to be so off topic, and whatnot, but hasn't anyone ever used Kinko's to print stuff of this nature? *




I don't know what Kinko's is; though a brief check of Google reveals they are some sort of corporate stationary company who can print your documents out and send them to you.

I guess you would have to review their pricing policy, but I imagine this may well end up doubling the price of the pdfs unless you were buying in bulk. 

Are you sure there is nowhere at school that would allow you to print out 20 pages here, 30 pages there?


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 21, 2003)

Nah, besides rules against it, my school is poor, and thusly has crappy computers & printers.  I may just print "the essentials" at home and print anything else out as I need it.


----------



## seasong (Jul 21, 2003)

Hey Bjorn! I checked, and Kinko's is considerably more expensive than I initially thought - I was remembering the _binding_ cost, which is $3-5, but I wasn't thinking about the printing cost, which is somewhere between $12-25 . At a cost-to-them of roughly $0.03 per page (if it's that high), that's practically robbery.

Sorry for the bad recommendation.

Anyway, they can do book binding pretty cheap, but for printing, I'd recommend going elsewhere. Are you in high school? One option, if your library (or computer science teacher) has a laser printer, is to see if you can provide your own paper and pay a very small fraction of the cost for toner. Depending on where in the US you are, and what quality of paper you want, a 500-page ream should cost you somewhere around $2-6; and most toner cartridges cost about $0.01-0.02 per page (for about $3-6 for the toner). If the teacher is using something like an HP4100, the toner cost is even lower - somewhere around $0.005 per page.

So:
Upper_Krust's PDF: $8
Decent paper: $3
Toner cover cost: $3-6
Kinko's binding: $3-6
Total: about $17 to $23

If the teacher doesn't care about the toner cost, that's even better. And you could also go without the binding, use a 3-hole punch and a cheap 3-ring binder, and have an uglier but still usable book.

_EDIT: Didn't know you had a home printer - that can save you some money, too ._


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 21, 2003)

Is Doomstar going to be in the book?  I've forgotten.

Second, here's an idea for a chunk of high level 'stuff':

Nil Will
Enchantment
Level: Dunno.  Pretty high.  Way up there.
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: Full Round Action
Range: Short
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

The target of this spell automatically fails his next will save.

Material Component: A finely crafted, miniature adamantinium helmet worth 2000 gp, crushed by an adamantium hammer in the casting of the spell.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 21, 2003)

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Nah, besides rules against it, my school is poor, and thusly has crappy computers & printers.  I may just print "the essentials" at home and print anything else out as I need it. *




The cost of printing out your own copy is rather extortionate...spare a thought for me and all the test pages I have needed. 

I can't envision what the best solution would be for you mate?

If you have a friend or relative that works in an office/university it might be worth your while asking them if they can help.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 21, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Is Doomstar going to be in the book?  I've forgotten.*




Well I was thinking of saving him for the web enhancement which has a Psionics theme.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Second, here's an idea for a chunk of high level 'stuff':
> 
> Nil Will
> Enchantment
> ...




I think you could do 'Nil Will' at 9th-level maybe. I like the name by the way.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 22, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Anabstercorian mate! [/b*



*

Hey hey!




			Well I was thinking of saving him for the web enhancement which has a Psionics theme.
		
Click to expand...



That's actually probably a very good idea.




			I think you could do 'Nil Will' at 9th-level maybe. I like the name by the way. 

Click to expand...



Thanks!  I rather liked it too. ^_^*


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 22, 2003)

Okay, I'll figure out the printing issues.  Thanks for all the help.  

Back on topic: So Krust, how many levels of divinity are ya gonna have?  I know I've asked this a crapload of times before, but it's always changing.   

Also, now may be a good time to warn you that I'll be gone and without a computer from the 27th to the 32nd .  So don't think I'm dead or anything.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 22, 2003)

New Spell!

*Meteoric Fate*
Conjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: Full Round Action
Range: Long
Effect: One meteor careening from the heavens
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None
This spell can only be cast on the surface of a planet, and not while deep underground.  3d4 rounds after casting the spell, a meteor, summoned by your spell, will careen in to the location designated by you with pinpoint accuracy.  The meteor is visible as a glowing, ominous pinpoint of light in the sky for two rounds before impact, warning the target.
The meteor will be approximately one foot in diameter, and has enough mass and velocity to cause 1d20 points of bludgeoning damage per caster level (Maximum 25d20) to any structure it impacts, as well as any creatures within five feet of the point of impact.  Creatures who are not affected by the initial impact but are within 40 feet of that point receive 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage per caster level from the shockwave.  The spell generally leaves a crater large enough to fill a 10 foot diameter centered on the point of impact.

Material components: A small magnet thrown towards the impact point.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 22, 2003)

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Okay, I'll figure out the printing issues.  Thanks for all the help.*




Sorry I couldn't be more help mate. 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Back on topic: So Krust, how many levels of divinity are ya gonna have?*




Mortal: 4
Immortal: 4 (Demigod; Lesser God; Intermediate God; Greater God)
Sidereal: 4
Eternal: 4 (I think, still toying with the Time Lords a bit)
Supernal: 72*

*and no they are not all individually detailed. 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *I know I've asked this a crapload of times before, but it's always changing.  *




I can't help it, I am just a whirling dervish of ideas. 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Also, now may be a good time to warn you that I'll be gone and without a computer from the 27th to the 32nd .  So don't think I'm dead or anything.   *




Have fun during your hiatus mate.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 22, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *New Spell!
> 
> Meteoric Fate
> Conjuration
> ...




I have something quite like this in the Immortals Handbook...I call it "Comet" though.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 22, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Supernal: 72*
> 
> *and no they are not all individually detailed.
> *




Well I suppose its's better for your mental health that way.  So ummm how exactly do they exist?  Is it just the rules to extrapolate up to those levels?  Also, just out of curiousity, do all those ranks have names, or are they just like "Supernal Level 47?"  

And thanks for the good wishes on my vacation.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 22, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Well I suppose its's better for your mental health that way.*




I went crazy long ago. 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *So ummm how exactly do they exist?*




They think, therefore they are. 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Is it just the rules to extrapolate up to those levels?*




The Divinity Templates all follow a similar pattern (for simplicities sake) so you can technically reach for infinity.

There are specific abilities that each class receives but after a certain point I found it was much easier to handle diversity through the various divine-cosmic-omnific-etc. gifts (thats why there are so many such powers: 270); and of course not to forget the various Portfolio Templates.

Deities & Demigods unnecessarily complicates and obfuscates the whole idea of divinity which is the last thing you need when roleplaying at very high levels.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Also, just out of curiousity, do all those ranks have names, or are they just like "Supernal Level 47?"*




They actually all have names, but if I told you one you could probably work out the rest. Hows that for cryptic. 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *And thanks for the good wishes on my vacation.   *




Have a great time mate!


----------



## Anubis (Jul 22, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> They actually all have names, but if I told you one you could probably work out the rest. Hows that for cryptic.
> *




Can i guess???  I mean, given that I have a rough idea of what a Supernal is . . .

Supernal . . . Bi-Supernal . . . Tri-Supernal . . . Quadra-Supernal . . . Penta-Supernal . . . Hexa-Supernal . . . Septa-Supernal . . . Octa-Supernal . . . etc . . .

Did I get it?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 22, 2003)

Hi Anubis mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Can i guess???*




Of course you can mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *I mean, given that I have a rough idea of what a Supernal is . . .*




Oh you think so do you. 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Supernal . . . Bi-Supernal . . . Tri-Supernal . . . Quadra-Supernal . . . Penta-Supernal . . . Hexa-Supernal . . . Septa-Supernal . . . Octa-Supernal . . . etc . . .
> 
> Did I get it? *




Nope, close, but not close enough.


----------



## Paragon (Jul 23, 2003)

WHEN?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!  When will it be out?!?!?!!?



Paragon


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 23, 2003)

Hi there Paragon! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> *WHEN?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!  When will it be out?!?!?!!? *




Shortly after WotC update the System Reference Document with both the Epic Level Handbook and Deities & Demigods.

Hopefully that will happen sometime in August...?


----------



## Zhnov (Jul 23, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Shortly after WotC update the System Reference Document with both the Epic Level Handbook and Deities & Demigods.




Howdy, Mighty One!

You must be a bit steamed it was not included... you are the first I thought of when I saw it posted without the needed nuggets. A bit disappointing, the IH is at the top of my shopping list.... blast!

My immortals can't wait any longer, please tell WotC to hurry... I'm soon to have a hell-raising mutiny on my hands.  

Keep up the good fight, UK.

OP


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 23, 2003)

Hi Orlic mate! 



			
				Orlic Pazafar said:
			
		

> *Howdy, Mighty One!*




You mean me!? 



			
				Orlic Pazafar said:
			
		

> *You must be a bit steamed it was not included...*




Its the 'not knowing when' that annoys me more than anything.

If I know when, then I can work towards that deadline, and to be honest I need that focus because otherwise I keep 'chopping and changing' things; which even though the changes are for the better procrastinates the development period.

Realistically (and to my shame) I should have had the material done and dusted simply awaiting release many months ago.



			
				Orlic Pazafar said:
			
		

> *you are the first I thought of when I saw it posted without the needed nuggets. A bit disappointing, the IH is at the top of my shopping list.... blast!*




I appreciate the love dude! 



			
				Orlic Pazafar said:
			
		

> *My immortals can't wait any longer, please tell WotC to hurry... I'm soon to have a hell-raising mutiny on my hands.  *




I doubt WotC would listen to me...which of course is there loss; notably so regarding all things Immortal (or indeed Challenge Ratings). 



			
				Orlic Pazafar said:
			
		

> *Keep up the good fight, UK. *




Thanks mate! 

I don't know exactly when it will be done; but I do know that when its done it will be worth the wait.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 23, 2003)

Hmmm.  Is anyone here associated with the mafia?    I'm sure they could "work out" these release issues.


----------



## -Eä- (Jul 25, 2003)

Funny! I was just thinkin' about the mob when I read this last post (-;

It's an omen!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 25, 2003)

Hi Eä mate! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> *It's an omen! *




My favourite Omen was the second one. 

Incidently the new spell system is proving slightly more tricky than I initially expected. It works in and of itself, but the problem is in retrofitting it to the class progression. Nothing I can't handle though and I'm sure I'll have it sorted over the weekend.


----------



## DeadlyUematsu (Jul 25, 2003)

Just thought I'll ask it here...

A player of mine has begrudgingly convinced me to run a deity level one shot for the group and I thought it would be prudent to ask what base ECL these characters would be at given a DR1 (so to give them an appropriate challenge).


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 25, 2003)

Hi there Deadly! 



			
				DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> *Just thought I'll ask it here...*




I'll certainly help if I can.



			
				DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> *A player of mine has begrudgingly convinced me to run a deity level one shot for the group.*




Well you shouldn't knock it until you've tried it!  

That said, epic/immortal level play has a terrible reputation - primarily due to the lack of understanding and long history of abuse.

Two things I hope to clear up with the Immortals Handbook. 



			
				DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> *and I thought it would be prudent to ask what base ECL these characters would be at given a DR1 (so to give them an appropriate challenge). *




Okay, well there are two answers here. The first is using my CR/EL rules (which are a revision to the core CR/EL rules which don't work at high levels) and the second is using the official core rules.

I haven't seen you in my CR/EL thread before and since this is a one shot anyway I will assume you want the ECL using the official rules.

So the effects of Divine Rank 1 would be roughly akin to ECL +16

So a 40th-level character with Divine Rank 1 would be equivalent to 56th-level.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Necropolis (Jul 25, 2003)

Hi U_K  
can you tell us some names of the most powerfull things in the books ( like spells , monsters , magical items and so on .....)
and what is your favorite spell
Thanks


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 25, 2003)

Yes!  Give names for your faithful vassels to gnaw and worry like bones!  My preciousss!


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 25, 2003)

Yeah, give us names!!  Err...umm...Perhaps a name for one of those Omnific gifts you mentioned?


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 25, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *So the effects of Divine Rank 1 would be roughly akin to ECL +16 *




Does that include the ECL adjustments for ability modifiers (which are +24, +18, +14, +14, +14, +14 for a total of +9.8 to CR)? Using your system, I came up with 11 for the quasi-deity (16.7 / 3 * 2).


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 25, 2003)

*Tip of the Iceberg*

Hi all! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Hi U_K
> can you tell us some names of the most powerfull things in the books (like spells , monsters , magical items and so on .....)
> and what is your favorite spell
> Thanks *




You mean to say that you can't wait for the previews on the website? 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Yes! Give names for your faithful vassels to gnaw and worry like bones! My preciousss!*






			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Yeah, give us names!! Err...umm...Perhaps a name for one of those Omnific gifts you mentioned?*




You guys are incorrigable. But my love is unconditional so...

Spells (likely to change a bit when I get the new spell system finished).

Requiem - Lets just say you don't want to be around when the music stops. 

Commandment - Laying down the law

Alter-Ego - "Thor...meet Evil Thor."

Don't know if I have a favourite spell; but there is one called Excommunicate that I really like.

Magic Items

Exterminating (Weapon Ability) - When you really don't like a certain race.

Holy* Scion - Mortals get Holy Avengers; Gods get these.

*Yes I have all the alignment flavours.

Lashing (Weapon Ability) - Melee opponents at a distance. 

Monsters

Unelemental - think along the lines of Umbral Blots but with something a bit more scary than that wimpy Disintegrating Touch to back them up. 

Eidolon (Astral Shadow/Shadow-Lich) - "So thats what happens to a demilich when even the bones no longer remain." 

Ancient Brethren - because WotC won't pull their finger out and detail the Ancient Baatorians.

Gifts

Heavy Handed (Divine Gift) - when you want to transcend base weapon damage.

Ascetic (Cosmic Gift) - Gain the Paragon Template but at what price...? 

Supremacy (Omnific Gift) - You have your opponents power on top of your own.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 25, 2003)

Hi kreynolds mate! 



			
				kreynolds said:
			
		

> *Does that include the ECL adjustments for ability modifiers (which are +24, +18, +14, +14, +14, +14 for a total of +9.8 to CR)? Using your system, I came up with 11 for the quasi-deity (16.7 / 3 * 2). *




DOH! 

Its been so long since I last poured over the Divinity section in Deities & Demigods that I forgot all about the ability scores.

My mistake.

Divine Rank 1 should therefore grant ECL +22 (as WotC rate things that is).


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Jul 25, 2003)

*Re: Tip of the Iceberg*



> You mean to say that you can't wait for the previews on the website?





No, duh! We're still waiting for it to be out yesterday.  
 



> You guys are incorrigable. But my love is unconditional so...




err...incorrigable...(using dictionary) depraved? delinquent?  unruly? I guess so, yeah.  



> Alter-Ego - "Thor...meet Evil Thor."




That sounds like fun.  



> Unelemental - think along the lines of Umbral Blots but with something a bit more scary than that wimpy Disintegrating Touch to back them up.




Owies!



> Eidolon (Astral Shadow/Shadow-Lich) - "So thats what happens to a demilich when even the bones no longer remain."




Hmm that word's been running through my head recently.  



> Heavy Handed (Divine Gift) - when you want to transcend base weapon damage.




Did you hear about the holy man who refused novacaine when he had a tooth pulled?  He wanted to transcend dental medication.  



> Ascetic (Cosmic Gift) - Gain the Paragon Template but at what price...? "




Very cool.  



> Supremacy (Omnific Gift) - You have your opponents power on top of your own.



Ultra cool.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 25, 2003)

*Re: Tip of the Iceberg*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Supremacy (Omnific Gift) - You have your opponents power on top of your own. *




 buglub.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97 (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Upper Krust_
> *Eidolon (Astral Shadow/Shadow-Lich) - "So thats what happens to a demilich when even the bones no longer remain."*




Awesome, always thought there should be this third step in the Lich chain. Now we need a vampire prince/king.



> *Ancient Brethren - because WotC won't pull their finger out and detail the Ancient Baatorians.*




Well its about time.... 

Everything else sounds very cool as well.


----------



## Necropolis (Jul 27, 2003)

Hi
a shadow lich ? i think that some pepole created shdow liches and they were not very high level , and all of their special abilities are not working in light 
rge astral lich sounds better but i think that this isn't good for pc liches becuse no player will become a demi lich becuse you can't play as a demi lich , he just sits in his place and a pc won't do that
so i think that it's more for npc's
do you have something for normal liches ?

Thanks


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 27, 2003)

Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Hi*




Hi Necropolis mate! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *a shadow lich ? i think that some pepole created shdow liches and they were not very high level , and all of their special abilities are not working in light *




I wasn't going to call them Shadow-Liches; thats simply for your benefit, to clarify they are the unnatural progression from Demi-Lich.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *rge astral lich sounds better *




It will be called Eidolon (Astral Shadow).

A lot of the monsters in the IH have dual names in the same way you have Barbazu (Bearded Devil).

A more mythical name and a more common name.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *but i think that this isn't good for pc liches becuse no player will become a demi lich becuse you can't play as a demi lich , he just sits in his place and a pc won't do that so i think that it's more for npc's do you have something for normal liches ? *




Well I never really intended these creatures as Player Characters (though why not I suppose); however I would add that they are not stuck in one place in the same way as Demi-Liches.


I am reticent about revealing material because devoid of the whole, a single peice of a puzzle can seem underwhelming and easily misconstrued. The most obvious and contemporary example being the material for WotCs new campaign setting "Eberron" which a number of people have started tearing into for no apparent reason.


----------



## Necropolis (Jul 27, 2003)

Hi again  
well i think that if you are going to create them it's good but can a normal lich transform into one of them ?
becuse you see if a player lich want's to be more powerfull he needs to be a demi lich first and then this new type of lich so there is a way for a normal lich to be one of those Eidolon liches ?
maybe with unque rituals ?
and are you going to give the full processs for the transformation into that lich ?

and lich is the only choice for being a powerfull arcane spellcaster at higher level or that there is something else ?

Thanks 
can't wait for this man


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 27, 2003)

I'm still reeling over Supremacy.  How are you supposed to DEFEAT that...?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 27, 2003)

Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Hi again  *




Hiya mate! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *well i think that if you are going to create them it's good but can a normal lich transform into one of them ?
> 
> becuse you see if a player lich want's to be more powerfull he needs to be a demi lich first and then this new type of lich so there is a way for a normal lich to be one of those Eidolon liches ?
> maybe with unque rituals ?*




I'm curious, is there a pressing need or desire to see new and more powerful character-centric monstrous Templates?



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *and are you going to give the full processs for the transformation into that lich ?*




I didn't really see it as a process _per se_ but rather an evolution.

Eidolons are the 'first liches' if you will, who have existed so long that even their bones no longer remain.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *and lich is the only choice for being a powerfull arcane spellcaster at higher level or that there is something else ?*




...deity perhaps. 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Thanks
> can't wait for this man  *




Well you'll just have to...a little longer anyway.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 27, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I'm still reeling over Supremacy.  How are you supposed to DEFEAT that...? *




Its a good one isn't it. 

Of course thats only an Omnific Gift; when you get to the Metempiric Gifts thats when things get really crazy. 

There are a number of ways to defeat such a character.

- Remember firstly that they only gain the power of a single opponent (so attacking with multiple characters would help). 

- They only gain inherant powers; not magical equipment (so they technically won't have all your power; given that, on average,  magic equipment makes up 20% of a characters power).

- At the very least a being possessing Omnific Gifts must be at least an Overgod in terms of power (and likely even more powerful than that); so you probably want to be at least a Greater God before you even contemplate taking it on.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 28, 2003)

So, it'd be something like...

_Melkor cackled menacingly, hovering like a burning flame that would not go out above the smoking corpse of Lathander.  He gazed towards Ilmater with malice in his eyes, laughing derisively.
"*Fool!*  You cannot hope to defeat me!  The first blow you strike shall grant me all of your strength!"
Ilmater nodded.  "Mine, perhaps..."
Odin burst in to the Godmoot hall, followed by Isis and Tempus.  "But not ours!"
Melkor hissed in anger.  Curses!  He could not take the power of them all..._


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 28, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *So, it'd be something like...
> 
> Melkor cackled menacingly, hovering like a burning flame that would not go out above the smoking corpse of Lathander.  He gazed towards Ilmater with malice in his eyes, laughing derisively.
> "Fool!  You cannot hope to defeat me!  The first blow you strike shall grant me all of your strength!"
> ...




Exactly.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 28, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *DOH!  *




I was wondering about that.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 28, 2003)

Hi kreynolds mate! 



			
				kreynolds said:
			
		

> *I was wondering about that.  *




I'm omnipotent, not omniscient.


----------



## Necropolis (Jul 28, 2003)

Hi  
the names of the spells that you gave to us are realy cool but do you have  spells that can do damage ? and i mean alot of damage ?  
i love to destroy things  
Thanks


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 28, 2003)

Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Hi  *




Hiya mate! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *the names of the spells that you gave to us are realy cool but do you have  spells that can do damage ?
> 
> and i mean alot of damage ?
> 
> i love to destroy things  *




I have a spell that can destroy a planet but I think it may be beyond the ability of most spellcasters. 

I am considering some technomage spells that duplicate the effects of explosives from grenades through to cruise missiles through to nuclear strikes etc. 

You need to be about Doomstars level to legitamately cast "Cruise Missile". Although lesser spellcasters could perhaps still manage it through application of the mitigating factors of my revised spellcasting system.

Incidently (for those who keep tabs on such things) I worked out earlier that Earth has 451 million hit points...and our Sun has 49.5 Billion hit points. 

It takes (approx.) a 4 ExaTon Event to obliterate an Earth sized planet...and an (equally approximate) 8 YettaTon Event to obliterate the Sun. 

I don't see these as common place events even in an Immortal campaign but I know some of you like to run a sort of DragonballZ affair while others like to throw Overgods around and I like to have all my bases covered.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 28, 2003)

So, do you think that your system could appropriately handle and scale to the utterly 1|\|Z@|\|E (insane) power that is DBZ?

Oh, and here is something funny: http://www.atomictoy.org/comics/buttlordgt/buttlordgt.html

When DBZ goes horribly homosexually wrong.


----------



## Impeesa (Jul 29, 2003)

W00t, DBZ campaign here I come. Buttlord is hilarious, too bad it's over. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 29, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *So, do you think that your system could appropriately handle and scale to the utterly 1|\|Z@|\|E (insane) power that is DBZ?*




The system can certainly handle the power, in fact I just had a few ideas for people running a DragonballZ style campaign; maybe I'll add that* to the Campaign advice section.

*in a roundabout fashion of course. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Oh, and here is something funny: http://www.atomictoy.org/comics/buttlordgt/buttlordgt.html
> 
> When DBZ goes horribly homosexually wrong. *




That was fantastic! Very funny!


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 29, 2003)

So, is *The Bawm Dawt Cawm*(TM) an Omnific gift, a Metempiric Gift, a Divine Gift...?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 29, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *So, is The Bawm Dawt Cawm(TM) an Omnific gift, a Metempiric Gift, a Divine Gift...? *




I'm not sure...but I think HUGE has levels in one of the Prestige Classes I designed.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 29, 2003)

I've got ten levels in *Meat Miracle*!


----------



## historian (Jul 30, 2003)

I know I'm late in joining this discussion, but I've got to say that Krust's IH project looks AWESOME!!

Count me in!

BTW-Krust, have you ever tried assigning a CR/EL for Thanos based on your system (minus the infinity gauntlet of course)?


----------



## Impeesa (Jul 30, 2003)

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I've got ten levels in Meat Miracle!  *




OMFG this is so epic.



--Impeesa--


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 30, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I've got ten levels in Meat Miracle!  *




I hope thats not a euphemism.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 30, 2003)

Hi there historian! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *I know I'm late in joining this discussion,*




...better late than never! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *but I've got to say that Krust's IH project looks AWESOME!!
> 
> Count me in!*




I appreciate the love dude! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *BTW-Krust, have you ever tried assigning a CR/EL for Thanos based on your system (minus the infinity gauntlet of course)? *




Well Thanos is pretty much the equal of Odin in the comics (in much the same way Darkseid is the equal of the Highfather in DC). Thanos and Odin have fought each other to a standstill before; Odin is perhaps slighly more powerful in Asgard though.

In the Immortals Index Odin clocks in at CR 197.

So that would place Thanos at about CR 200.

Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet* is only about CR 13,000.

*The effects of which you can actually *cough* duplicate using various powers in the Immortals Handbook. 

For those of you who have read the latest Thanos series "The End" (great story; though I didn't think the art was up to the standard of the Infinity Gauntlet series) we can assume that Thanos in possession of the 'Heart of the Universe' (which is in effect 'The Akasha' from the Immortals Handbook) is effectively a  Supernal of maximum power and therefore CR 80...



...80 Quindecillion that is.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 30, 2003)

I'm, er, assuming that the CR 80 quindecillion is an estimate?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 30, 2003)

Hi mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I'm, er, assuming that the CR 80 quindecillion is an estimate? *




Consider it an educated guess.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 30, 2003)

Hey, could you stat out The Authority from image comics?  Apollo, the Midnighter, the Doctor, the Engineer, Swift, and Jack Hawksmoor?  After all, they're frequently referred to as a pantheon.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 30, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Hey, could you stat out The Authority from image comics?  Apollo, the Midnighter, the Doctor, the Engineer, Swift, and Jack Hawksmoor?  After all, they're frequently referred to as a pantheon. *




Unfortunately I am totally unfamiliar with any of the above, sorry. 

I pretty much know the Marvel Continuum like the back of my hand, and I know a little of the DC Continuum; thats about it with regards comics though (not forgetting Hellboy of course).


----------



## historian (Jul 31, 2003)

Awesome UK, your system CAN handle Thanos w/Infinity Gauntlet   

BTW - I downloaded your revised CR/EL .pdf posted awhile back.  By my calculations, IG Thanos, who is CR 13000, would be 50/50  vs. 320 Paragon Great Prismatic Wyrms!!!!    


Man, I can't wait til' you release this material!!


----------



## historian (Jul 31, 2003)

Err, it seems in my zealousness I miscalculated IG Thanos's strength relative to the Paragon Prismatic Great Wyrms   - Please accept my apologies. 

Actually, assuming UK's CR/EL .pdf holds (and my extrapolation therefrom), IG Thanos would be 50/50 vs. APPROXIMATELY 7130 PARAGON PRISMATIC GREAT WYRMS!!!!! KICK ARSE      

I reiterate my apologies for the mistatement, just working diligently to catch up.

Man, now I really can't wait to get get my hands on the IH!!!!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 31, 2003)

Hiya historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *Awesome UK, your system CAN handle Thanos w/Infinity Gauntlet *




I think so.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *BTW - I downloaded your revised CR/EL .pdf posted awhile back.*




Remember that was merely an early playtest version. The proper version (3.5 compliant) should be available soon. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *By my calculations, IG Thanos, who is CR 13000, would be 50/50  vs. 320 Paragon Great Prismatic Wyrms!!!!...
> 
> ...Err, it seems in my zealousness I miscalculated IG Thanos's strength relative to the Paragon Prismatic Great Wyrms  - Please accept my apologies.
> 
> ...




Well a Paragon Prismatic Great Wyrm would be around CR 150 in my system (off the top of my head) which is EL 29.

IG Thanos would be CR 13,000 which makes him about EL 55.

This makes a difference of 26 EL which is the equivalent of 8192 Paragon Prismatic Great Wyrms...of course its possible I have taken a few liberties deciding on the dragons CR so your figure could be more accurate in this instance.

However, all that said and done its unlikely that any number of Paragon Prismatic Great Wyrms could honestly threaten IG-Thanos. Once you go beyond 8 EL you are generally considered 'out of their league' regardless of CR.

Any individual less than CR 3,250 wouldn't stand a chance.

Though Thanos did lower the Gauntlets power to try and impress Mistress Death giving the heroes a miniscule percentage of success.

Its debateable whether or not the Cosmic beings like Galactus and Eternity actually had a chance themselves when Thanos brought the Gauntlet back up to full power.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *Man, I can't wait til' you release this material!!
> 
> Man, now I really can't wait to get get my hands on the IH!!!! *




I appreciate the love mate!


----------



## Clay_More (Jul 31, 2003)

Ohhh.... great. Now the forums will be crowded with people playing their own little DBZ campaigns. I bet this will lead to an increase in the number of times the word "WOOT!" is used on these boards 

Couldn't you make a warning on the back of the book? "Using this material to duplicate any effects found in Dragonball Z could lead to blindness, deafness, loss of fertility and eventually death". Seems to work on cigarettes 




> This makes a difference of 26 EL which is the equivalent of 8192 Paragon Prismatic Great Wyrms



.... well my dad could still kick his ass...

Anyways, you never considered making it apart from ELH / D&DG rules? What if one of the books are not included in the OGL, will you be unable of publishing them then? 

Glad to hear that you weren't planning on calling it an Astral-Lich, that way I can keep the name of my sorcerer-lich intact 

Will any of those lovely Hellsing abilities be duplicated in some form? Hard not to get affected by a show like that...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 31, 2003)

Hiya Clay_More mate! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Ohhh.... great. Now the forums will be crowded with people playing their own little DBZ campaigns. I bet this will lead to an increase in the number of times the word "WOOT!" is used on these boards
> 
> Couldn't you make a warning on the back of the book? "Using this material to duplicate any effects found in Dragonball Z could lead to blindness, deafness, loss of fertility and eventually death". Seems to work on cigarettes  *




...blindness, deafness, loss of fertility and eventually death and destruction of your entire planet more like. 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *.... well my dad could still kick his ass...*




Nobody 'disses the big guy on my watch, lets throw down! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Anyways, you never considered making it apart from ELH / D&DG rules? What if one of the books are not included in the OGL, will you be unable of publishing them then?*




Of course I have considered it, and if you had told me a year ago I would still have been waiting I would have jumped at the chance.

At the moment I am scaling things down to the bare minimum so I really only need the Salient Divine Abilities (from D&Dg) and the Epic Feats (from the ELH). The rest is irrelevant. In fact if they keep stalling (if theres still no joy by the end of August) I may go the whole hog and redo what needs to be done.

The main problem with that idea though is that most of the epic feats and salient divine abilities I would need to create (to fill the void) would be virtual duplicates of whats already there and I can see that leading to more confusion than not.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Glad to hear that you weren't planning on calling it an Astral-Lich, that way I can keep the name of my sorcerer-lich intact  *




Cheeky. 

To be honest it was always going to be called the Astral Shadow (Eidolon).



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Will any of those lovely Hellsing abilities be duplicated in some form? Hard not to get affected by a show like that... *




I couldn't possibly comment.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Jul 31, 2003)

Two questions:

What are the levels of divine abilities again?  Salient, Omnific, Metempiric...?

Is there any level at which you feel even your CR system would break down?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 1, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Two questions:
> 
> What are the levels of divine abilities again?  Salient, Omnific, Metempiric...?*




Salient Divine Abilities are called Divine Gifts in the Immortals Handbook.

So you would have:

Mortal Feats
Divine Gifts
Cosmic Gifts
Omnific Gifts
Metempiric Gifts



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Is there any level at which you feel even your CR system would break down? *




No.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Aug 1, 2003)

Strong words, friend.  Strong words.  You realize, of course, that we are now bound by honor to find a way to break your system.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Aug 1, 2003)

Krusty, if they keep stalling you may have better things to do, like finding a way to not be implicated as a ring leader in the violence that could ensue.


----------



## Clay_More (Aug 1, 2003)

Well.... my dad could kick all of your asses too.....


----------



## Anubis (Aug 1, 2003)

Sorry, but I'm pretty certain that UK's system DOES eventually break down.  Happens around CR 1000 or so.

Levels may not give as much at that point, but someone needs to realize that class abilities and such go up in a linear fashion rather than a percentage like hp and other things do.

Yeah, there may not be much difference between 5000 hp and 8000 hp at that level, but the missing hundred or so feats could have a huge impact, not to mention the INSANE number of magical items that would be involved.

In other words, I GUARANTEE at the higher ELs I could make two characters, one at the bottom of the EL and the other at the top of the SAME EL, and the one at the top of the EL will win 100% of the time without exception.

Just put a Level 1023 wizard against a Level 896 wizard to see my point.  The Level 1023 wizard will win EVERY SINGLE TIME.  The less powerful one couldn't scratch the more powerful one, who can like kill the less powerful one a hundred different ways without a chance of failure.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Aug 1, 2003)

If you would be so kind as to demonstrate?


----------



## Impeesa (Aug 2, 2003)

I can build a level 3 character and a level 2 character and the level 3 character will win 100% of the time.... mind you, the level 2 character wouldn't really be an optimum build. But I don't think that's what you meant, eh? 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Aug 2, 2003)

Hi Upper Krust! I am curious concerning your epic spellcasting system.  I assume it is based upon this very interesting spell seeds mechanic yet more balanced? It seems to me that epic level spellcaster can do much more damage using metamagic than epic spells. By the way, do you think that it would be suitable for non-epic spellcasters to get access to epic magic through costly rituals?

I am also interested if you have any Void-like beings ala Blackballs from ELH. I can imagine Void Golems or mighty Void Dragons with anhilating breath as very cool epic monsters. What a pity that my group is only 23rd level and they are moving very slowly, half the sessions playing their lower level followers to do more fighting, since the actual characters are mostly roleplaying and occasional "boss" battles, for there not many beings able to challenge them.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 2, 2003)

Hi all! 

Apologies for the delay, been away from the computer for a day or so.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Strong words, friend.  Strong words. *








			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *You realize, of course, that we are now bound by honor to find a way to break your system.  *




Absolutely.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 2, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate, glad to see you back! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Krusty, if they keep stalling you may have better things to do, like finding a way to not be implicated as a ring leader in the violence that could ensue.    *


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 2, 2003)

Hi Clay_More mate! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Well.... my dad could kick all of your asses too..... *




Glad I caught you, did you get the chance to post those discs yet?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 2, 2003)

Hi Anubis mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Sorry, but I'm pretty certain that UK's system DOES eventually break down.  Happens around CR 1000 or so.*




No it doesn't! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Levels may not give as much at that point, but someone needs to realize that class abilities and such go up in a linear fashion rather than a percentage like hp and other things do.
> 
> Yeah, there may not be much difference between 5000 hp and 8000 hp at that level, but the missing hundred or so feats could have a huge impact, not to mention the INSANE number of magical items that would be involved.
> 
> ...




I keep trying to tell people that ENCOUNTER LEVEL is FLEXIBLE. Thats something I'll make more pronounced in v4.

When you contrast two groups they only have the same EL if they have the same CR. Otherwise the EL is always at least +1/-1.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 2, 2003)

Melkor said:
			
		

> *Hi Upper Krust!*




Hi Melkor mate! 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *I am curious concerning your epic spellcasting system.  I assume it is based upon this very interesting spell seeds mechanic yet more balanced? It seems to me that epic level spellcaster can do much more damage using metamagic than epic spells.*




There are a few teething problems (nothing I'm sure I can't handle of course) but the system is akin to an amalgamation of metamagic ideas and epic factor ideas.

Its very, very simple.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *By the way, do you think that it would be suitable for non-epic spellcasters to get access to epic magic through costly rituals?*




Through my system yes - in fact I am counting on it, I have tied my sacrifice rules into it.

Whereas the epic spells are often simply more powerful standard spells; what I try to do is give you the lowest common denominator with epic ideas then let you take that to whatever level you want.

I am toying with the idea of doing a second version of each spell. The first is the lowest common denominator, the second would be some extravagant example used by a deity.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *I am also interested if you have any Void-like beings ala Blackballs from ELH. I can imagine Void Golems or mighty Void Dragons with anhilating breath as very cool epic monsters.*




I have Unelementals which are like Blackballs given form, but like I mentioned on a previous post I thought the Disintegrate Touch of the Blackballs was a bit pathetic. Suffice to say I have 'upped the ante' for what happens when you encounter them. 

I am sure I couldn't possibly comment as to whether one of the ten dragons in the IH has that same power as a breath weapon.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *What a pity that my group is only 23rd level and they are moving very slowly, half the sessions playing their lower level followers to do more fighting, since the actual characters are mostly roleplaying and occasional "boss" battles,*




Even cohorts have their roll. Thats the good thing about the IH it advocates you roleplay as the cohorts/worshippers/servants as well. So you get the full spectrum of gaming - not just the 'wham, bam thank you mam' epic/immortal level stuff. 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *for there not many beings able to challenge them. *




Just you wait, we will have your players challenged (and then some) very shortly.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Aug 2, 2003)

Oh Krustiferous one! I ask you answer my questions three....um...yeah.  

1.  How easy is it to stat out divine beings with your system?  

2.  With the list of things people have asked you to stat it seems as though you could use your system for superheroics.  Would this be an accurate assumption?  

3.  Do you need anything else on your to-do list of beings, cause I was thinking maybe Darkseid, and The Monkey King would be nice additions if not completely unrelated.  I feel weird putting them in the same sentence....

Also, I've been meaning to say (since forever) that Anabstercorian has the coolest sig line ever.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 3, 2003)

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Oh Krustiferous one! I ask you answer my questions three....um...yeah.*




Fire away.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *1.  How easy is it to stat out divine beings with your system?*




Its pretty simple, though it depends on how much detail you want to go into I suppose.

Lets say you wanted to create a Lesser God.

1. You look up the typical Hit Dice/Levels (roll if you want to decide randomly).
2. Create the character the exact same way you would any other character.
3. Apply Lesser God Template.
4. Decide on Portfolios (or again roll randomly) and apply those Templates.
5. Decide on Divine Gifts (or again you have the option of rolling randomly).

That will get you the God itself.

Then you have other options for creating servitors etc.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *2.  With the list of things people have asked you to stat it seems as though you could use your system for superheroics.  Would this be an accurate assumption?*




Comics have certainly inspired a few of the elements in the book. 

I definately think Portfolios will be interesting when applied to Non-Divine beings. Thats like 46 new monster Templates right there. 

So within your Ice Deities realm all the animals, fauna and natives might have the Winter Portfolio.

Similarly the idea could be used to flesh out super-hero stereotypes.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *3.  Do you need anything else on your to-do list of beings, cause I was thinking maybe Darkseid, and The Monkey King would be nice additions if not completely unrelated.  I feel weird putting them in the same sentence.... *




I see the relationship between Darkseid and Superman akin to that between Thanos and Thor. The Omega Blast is certainly 'Divine' based energy.

The Monkey King is a weird one and certainly one of those mythological characters wherein you have to seperate the fiction from the grossly exaggerated fiction.


----------



## historian (Aug 3, 2003)

Krust, I couldn't resist writing out the CR for your high-end Supernal, 80 quindecillion. 

80 quindecillion, according to my sources, would be:

80,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000    

Of course, I'm using the "American" version of quindecillion, the "British" version is a good bit larger.   



BTW - I'm guesstimating that Galactus in "his" typical incarnation would fall in the CR 750-1500 range, short of the CR 3250 that would be the minimum qualification for :standing a chance" against IG-Thanos.  I would rate Eternity as materially more powerful, but I'm not sure "it" would break CR 3250.

Looking forward to further posting on this and other IH topics.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 3, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *Krust, I couldn't resist writing out the CR for your high-end Supernal, 80 quindecillion.
> 
> 80 quindecillion, according to my sources, would be:
> 
> ...




I was indeed using the American version of the term; I think its less confusing (even if it makes less sense from a mathmatical standpoint, given the derivation of the actual terminology).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *BTW - I'm guesstimating that Galactus in "his" typical incarnation would fall in the CR 750-1500 range, short of the CR 3250 that would be the minimum qualification for :standing a chance" against IG-Thanos.  I would rate Eternity as materially more powerful, but I'm not sure "it" would break CR 3250.*




I have given the Marvel cosmology a lot of study (even if the material on such cosmic megapowers is often inconclusive and vague).

On the one hand there is a case for Galactus at about CR 300 (upper end Elder God); on another there is a case for him at about CR 1000 (very low end Time Lord).

However, if we parallel Odins D&D stats with Odins Marvel Superheroes RPG stats we see that he is not far below Galactus in terms of power. Therefore the only solid evidence is that we adopt the lesser of the two incarnations of Galactus - circa CR 300.

By the same reasoning Eternity would be approximately CR 600.

However I doubt that really paints the true picture. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *Looking forward to further posting on this and other IH topics. *




Hey, thats what I'm here for...and apologies all round that I haven't sorted this whole website issue yet; I sometimes feel I have too much on my plate and its difficult to decide what to eat first.


----------



## Necropolis (Aug 3, 2003)

Hi UK 
something new with your website ? there is a date when it will go live ?

you said that you will release the immortal handbook when the srd for the epic level will be out but if it won't ?
becuse you know wizards of the coast this could take years or maybe months


----------



## Paragon (Aug 3, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> 
> However, if we parallel Odins D&D stats with Odins Marvel Superheroes RPG stats we see that he is not far below Galactus in terms of power. Therefore the only solid evidence is that we adopt the lesser of the two incarnations of Galactus - circa CR 300.
> 
> ...




Granted Odin is powerful and all but Galacticus and Eternity are 2 of the 3 primordial forces of the Universe, as seen in an issue of Silver Surfer where Galacticus and Eternity meet and talk one taking the form of star and i can't remember what form the other took but their disscussion lead me to believe there was much more to galacticus than met the eye.  

Paragon


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 3, 2003)

Necropolis said:
			
		

> *Hi UK*




Hi Necropolis mate! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *something new with your website ? there is a date when it will go live ?*




It'll be done when its done, I don't really want to volunteer more information than that at this point.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> *you said that you will release the immortal handbook when the srd for the epic level will be out but if it won't ?
> becuse you know wizards of the coast this could take years or maybe months *




If we have nothing to go on by the end of August I will just have to sort something out myself. I am a bit fed up waiting.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 3, 2003)

Hey there Paragon! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> *Granted Odin is powerful and all but Galacticus and Eternity are 2 of the 3 primordial forces of the Universe, as seen in an issue of Silver Surfer where Galacticus and Eternity meet and talk one taking the form of star and i can't remember what form the other took but their disscussion lead me to believe there was much more to galacticus than met the eye.   *




Galactus Marvel Super-hero Stats:

Fighting: 75
Agility: 75
Strength: 1000
Endurance: 3000
Reason: 1000
Intuition: 1000
Psyche: 1000

Health: 4150
Karma: 3000


Odins Marvel Super-hero Stats: 

Fighting: 100
Agility: 100
Strength: 50
Endurance: 3000
Reason: 40
Intuition: 40
Psyche: 3000

Health: 3250
Karma: 3080


Eternity's Marvel Super-hero Stats:

Fighting: 5000
Agility: 5000
Strength: 5000
Endurance: 5000
Reason: 5000
Intuition: 5000
Psyche: 5000

Health: 20,000
Karma: 15,000 (though I believe Karma is listed as Infinite)

Galactus is one of the true Cosmic Heavyweights but there are a number of others equally powerful as well as a handful more powerful still; such as the entire race of Celestials; Abraxas; Eternity; Infinity; The Living Tribunal; The Infinites.

The disparity between whats seen in the comics and whats balanced in terms of RPG stats will always be a dilemma of course, if you want to keep things balanced you don't want to make planetary destruction (in and of a beings own power) too easy. I mean Galactus is called the World Devourer; but his ability to destroy a planet derives more from his technology than his own abilities.


----------



## Impeesa (Aug 4, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> I am sure I couldn't possibly comment as to whether one of the ten dragons in the IH has that same power (annihilation) as a breath weapon.
> 
> *




Bear in mind, everyone, that this is the same fiend who brought us the non-epic Slarecian dragon, which breathes a cone of Mordenkainen's Disjunction. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 4, 2003)

Hi Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> *Bear in mind, everyone, that this is the same fiend who brought us the non-epic Slarecian dragon, which breathes a cone of Mordenkainen's Disjunction.  *




Heh heh! 

I generally try and give my monsters (not just dragons) at least one unique ability that hasn't been seen before.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Aug 4, 2003)

Speaking of Mordenkainen's Disjunction, what's your opinion on that spell, UK?  I think it's terribly broken.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 4, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Speaking of Mordenkainen's Disjunction, what's your opinion on that spell, UK?  I think it's terribly broken. *




Well, someone else postulated the same thing in a thread in the general discussion forum a few days ago about epic adventuring.

I offered the suggestion that when you go to roll the item saving throws start from the least expensive item, then, as soon as one item makes its save, stop right there.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Aug 4, 2003)

It certainly makes the grey ioun stone a lot more useful.


----------



## historian (Aug 4, 2003)

> If we have nothing to go on by the end of August I will just have to sort something out myself. I am a bit fed up waiting.




Hang in there Krust, I feel your pain.  You are definitely fighting the good fight. 

Until you go fully public, I'll be keeping one eye on this post for any updates.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 5, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *It certainly makes the grey ioun stone a lot more useful. *




Stock up on cheap potions and scrolls.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 5, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *Hang in there Krust, I feel your pain.  You are definitely fighting the good fight. *




It'll happen eventually, thats the only certainty at the moment.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *Until you go fully public, I'll be keeping one eye on this post for any updates. *




Appreciate the love dude!


----------



## Clay_More (Aug 5, 2003)

Hey, do you have a website UK? I saw someone mentioning it, didn't know if you HAVE one or INTEND to have one 

I dont remember, but were you going to do all pictures by yourself or did you have someone to assist you on that point? 

Anyways Krust, ill post them discs at the 11 th. of August, I am on a completely different Island than they are right now. Sorry I missed the question further down the thread 

What would, in your opinion, be the highest CR possibly for a creature that falls under the Devil or Demon description? Including Devil or Demon gods or similar?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 5, 2003)

Hi Clay_More mate! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Hey, do you have a website UK? I saw someone mentioning it, didn't know if you HAVE one or INTEND to have one  *




I 'intend' to have one.

I'll get around to it eventually, its just that there are more important things requiring my attention at the moment.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *I dont remember, but were you going to do all pictures by yourself or did you have someone to assist you on that point?*




I am doing the interior pictures; I haven't decided if I will do the cover yet, though I have a possible cover sketched (roughly).

I also need to get my scanner fixed since its not actually working at the moment. 

When I get the website up I will post some pictures and you can all give me your opinions.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Anyways Krust, ill post them discs at the 11 th. of August, I am on a completely different Island than they are right now. Sorry I missed the question further down the thread  *




No apologies necessary mate, just curious about an update. Ea is as eager to get his hands on them as you were. 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *What would, in your opinion, be the highest CR possibly for a creature that falls under the Devil or Demon description? Including Devil or Demon gods or similar? *




Can there be such a limit? I mean thats like asking what would be the limit for a deity...there isn't one.

I have the hierarchies (or at least a possible hierarchy) for the Angels; Daemons; Demons and Devils in the Bestiary section.

For example if I were detailing Asmodeus I would have him as an Intermediate Deity with a 134 CR.

So their is a scale for outlining the power of such beings with indicators for their position within a hierarchy.


----------



## Clay_More (Aug 5, 2003)

So, will the rules for making the mechanics be open-content to such a degree that it is possible to make a devil/demon/angel deity and use it in another book, or will that be off limits?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 5, 2003)

Hello again mate! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *So, will the rules for making the mechanics be open-content to such a degree that it is possible to make a devil/demon/angel deity and use it in another book, or will that be off limits? *




Thats certainly something I will be discussing with the publisher.

I think it may fall along the lines of 'Its all open-content except these bits*...'

*Notably certain characters I create (used as examples) and so forth.


----------



## Clay_More (Aug 6, 2003)

ahhh... the same way Fantasy Flight Games normally go about it (they do alot chapter-to-chapter Open-Contenting....). 

Could you therefore design a devil / demon god (I keep mentioning this because I just made a couple of these for my book) with the rules in a way that it could be usable for someone who didn't have the rules? 

Its good to hear that there is going to be open game content on the rules, by the way 

Will you ship the book with a full pantheon or merely a series of unrelated deities?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 6, 2003)

Hi Clay_More mate! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *ahhh... the same way Fantasy Flight Games normally go about it (they do alot chapter-to-chapter Open-Contenting....).*




If you say so...I don't own any of their books though I am sure I have looked through some at Conventions/Stores.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Could you therefore design a devil / demon god (I keep mentioning this because I just made a couple of these for my book) with the rules in a way that it could be usable for someone who didn't have the rules?*




Yes. 

Of course you would have to incorporate the Templates (Divinity and Portfolio) into their stats and explain certain Divine Gifts*. 

I am actually working on Tables right now which outline the benefits of all the various Gifts in a sentence (so you would have that for brevity).



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Its good to hear that there is going to be open game content on the rules, by the way  *




I think its probably for the best.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Will you ship the book with a full pantheon or merely a series of unrelated deities? *




I simply don't have the space to detail a full pantheon the way I want to and still keep everything within 320 pages. Its simply impossible.

After the Immortals Handbook is finished I plan to release the Immortals Index anyway, which will hopefully be a series of 20 Pantheons. The first will either be the Celtic or Aztec Pantheons. I am toying with the idea of releasing the Pantheons in alphabetical order but I must admit I am furthest along with detailing the Celtic Pantheon and I seem to recall (from the poll I took about a year ago in the General Discussion Forum) that after the Egyptian/Greek/Norse (already covered in D&Dg - though I will of course be doing them again...properly  ) the Celtic Pantheon was the one most people wanted to see.


----------



## Clay_More (Aug 6, 2003)

Sounds like you got your work cut out for you for the next couple of years to come 

Well, I wouldn't mind seeing the old pantheons done properly, seems like there have been several attempts, many of which were half-hearted.
Hmmmm.... including the 20 pantheons, what are we looking at for a total page count? 2000-3000?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 6, 2003)

Hi Clay_More mate! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Sounds like you got your work cut out for you for the next couple of years to come  *




Well if all goes well and the Pantheons are popular enough to warrant the effort I would certainly like to give it a go.

I want to put a lot more into each than simply the Pantheon itself of course.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Well, I wouldn't mind seeing the old pantheons done properly, seems like there have been several attempts, many of which were half-hearted. *




I think many are simply confused as to their audience.

I mean take D&Dg for example, whats the point of having stats if you are not going to provide a mechanic to actually allow characters to become gods - its redundant.

So I think I have an advantage in that the Immortals Handbook knows exactly what it is.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Hmmmm.... including the 20 pantheons, what are we looking at for a total page count? 2000-3000? *




Likely somewhere between 64-96 pages per Pantheon, so more likely 1280-1920 total pages.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Aug 9, 2003)

Hiya there, Krusty boy.  

Are ya gonna have any example deities in the book, and are they from existing pantheons or your own creations?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 9, 2003)

Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Hiya there, Krusty boy. *




Hey Bjorn matey! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Are ya gonna have any example deities in the book, *




Yes.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *and are they from existing pantheons or your own creations? *




Both.

The iconics are my creation (well, they are technically based on PCs/NPCs from our campaign), but there are a number of examples of the Divinity Templates as well.

Also there are a number of epic-NPCs (non divine).


----------



## Clay_More (Aug 9, 2003)

> Likely somewhere between 64-96 pages per Pantheon, so more likely 1280-1920 total pages.




Nice, that means you will have time for doing something non-deity related in the year 2049. Arrange a game of Golf for that year?

Do you have any education that concerns mythology (you also notice it in your description that you have it as a hobby), or is it all out of desire?
Off course, I hope to see the Scandinavian Mythology done properly, dont give Odin Construct Ravens (like some 2 ed. edition book had them)


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 10, 2003)

Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Nice, that means you will have time for doing something non-deity related in the year 2049. Arrange a game of Golf for that year?*




Well if there was something I really wanted to do I am sure I could fit it into the schedule.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Do you have any education that concerns mythology (you also notice it in your description that you have it as a hobby), or is it all out of desire?*




No official education in Mythology (although I do have an 'A' Level in Ancient History). All my university education revolves around Graphic Design/Visual Communication.

However, when I left school I took it upon my own to re-educate myself on a number of subjects to varying degrees. One such being mythology. Mythology has always been a passion (and roleplaying a god for many years only fanned the flames). I don't think there has been a point in the last five years when I didn't have some mythology book(s) out of the library (In addition to my own growing collection).



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Off course, I hope to see the Scandinavian Mythology done properly, dont give Odin Construct Ravens (like some 2 ed. edition book had them)  *




Isn't Odin the one with the goats?


----------



## Clay_More (Aug 10, 2003)

Hey, then we should go do some Golf next time you come to Denmark. I know it will prolly be a while, but then Ill have time to learn the darn sport at least. Did you know, that on average, professional golf-players are the type of sport practioners with the lowest IQ?

Its a good feeling you get when you realise that you are really good at something that you have never received formal training in (like Mythology), after having taught yourself. I have had long periods where I spent alot of time on one subject for no other reason than pure interest and a sort of need to learn. I just delivered back a bagful of books on steam technology today after I had done some reading up for Flesh & Steel.

Odin....    erm... I think he might got some goats somewhere.. prolly. He's the one with the eight-legged horse, the wolves and the ravens... I think.... but off course he could have some goats too, he just forgot to mention them...


----------



## historian (Aug 10, 2003)

I think the stand-alone pantheon project sounds pretty cool.  It would be hugely helpful in generating mythology-specific campaigns, among other things.

Krust, I'm curious - can you shed any light on what forces or affiliations your supernals might represent?  The reason I ask is that, at least in my way of thinking, a pantheon would typically include beings ranging from demigod to greater god, but wouldn't necessarily include beings beyond this (i.e., Zeus, who I'm assuming fits into your greater god classification, is generally thought to be the most powerful member of the Olympian pantheon, at least as I am defining it).  Is this definition of pantheon too narrow, or would supernals exist entirely outside of a pantheon - and, if supernals do exist outside of a pantheon, are they a more fundamental reprentation of a portfolio than the "lesser" deity-beings (entropy, murder, fire) and could they be classified by alignment (neutral good, etc.)?

Sorry about the compound question.    I also recognize that this inquiry calls for "spoiler" type information - feel free to answer some, none, or all of it.  Thanks in advance for any input.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 10, 2003)

Hi Clay_More mate! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Hey, then we should go do some Golf next time you come to Denmark. I know it will prolly be a while, but then Ill have time to learn the darn sport at least.*




I have only ever played golf once, but I am a fast learner. 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Did you know, that on average, professional golf-players are the type of sport practioners with the lowest IQ?*




I would have envisioned that was boxers.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Its a good feeling you get when you realise that you are really good at something that you have never received formal training in (like Mythology), after having taught yourself. *




Well I wasn't aware that there were many formal courses on mythology to be honest.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *I have had long periods where I spent alot of time on one subject for no other reason than pure interest and a sort of need to learn. I just delivered back a bagful of books on steam technology today after I had done some reading up for Flesh & Steel.*




I think thats indicative of education in general. You do better in the subjects you are interested in. At school I was never really interested in physics but after I left I went back and hit the books again.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Odin....    erm... I think he might got some goats somewhere.. prolly. He's the one with the eight-legged horse, the wolves and the ravens... I think.... but off course he could have some goats too, he just forgot to mention them... *




Eight-legged Horse!? Are you making this up!?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 10, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *I think the stand-alone pantheon project sounds pretty cool.  It would be hugely helpful in generating mythology-specific campaigns, among other things.*




Absolutely. I hope a lot of other people will take to the idea as well.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *Krust, I'm curious - can you shed any light on what forces or affiliations your supernals might represent?*




I could, but I don't really want to spoil the surprise at this point. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *The reason I ask is that, at least in my way of thinking, a pantheon would typically include beings ranging from demigod to greater god, but wouldn't necessarily include beings beyond this (i.e., Zeus, who I'm assuming fits into your greater god classification, is generally thought to be the most powerful member of the Olympian pantheon, at least as I am defining it).*




Zeus would certainly be the head of the organised Pantheon of Greek Gods and Goddesses; however if you look into the heart of the greek cosmogony you will see many beings more powerful than Zeus. Many of these would be Sidereals. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *Is this definition of pantheon too narrow, or would supernals exist entirely outside of a pantheon - and, if supernals do exist outside of a pantheon, are they a more fundamental reprentation of a portfolio than the "lesser" deity-beings (entropy, murder, fire) and could they be classified by alignment (neutral good, etc.)?*




No thats Sidereals you are thinking of. Sidereals are to Immortals as they in turn are to mortals.

Eternals exist beyond Sidereals.

Supernals exist beyond Eternals.

Mind-boggling isn't it. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *Sorry about the compound question. *




Thats okay mate, I appreciate the interest.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *I also recognize that this inquiry calls for "spoiler" type information - feel free to answer some, none, or all of it.  Thanks in advance for any input.  *




Well I answered 'some'.


----------



## Clay_More (Aug 10, 2003)

> No thats Sidereals you are thinking of. Sidereals are to Immortals as they in turn are to mortals.
> 
> Eternals exist beyond Sidereals.
> 
> ...




Definitely not something for Golf-players for sure.

I wasn't kidding about the eight legged horse, even though it sounds like something from a bad American horror movie; "the return of the freaky-spider-horse from hell"

Anyways, did you ever see the Spirit stuff I posted Krust? Could be handy when youre doing Indian mythologies 
Think it sneaked down to pg 2 or 3 in the House Rules by now...


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Aug 11, 2003)

Harumph, the worst of all this waiting is, I want to have an immortal-type campaign, but first I plan to flesh out some gods and steal some cosmic entity cliches from comics and what not but I want a distinct hierarchy and before that I want to know all of the ranks in Krust's book, so I wait with half formed ideas.  Oh well nothing I can do, until mob violence starts.... 

Sorry I just had to get that all off my chest.  I need a legitimate question to not sound like a jerk don't I?  

Errrr, umm, okay, Under your system will divine pets (i.e. that Eight legged horse Clay_more informed you of  ) Be more impressive than the crappy versions in D&Dg?


----------



## seasong (Aug 11, 2003)

Note: The eight-legged horse is Sleipnirr, and he's not a pet... he's Loki's son .


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Aug 11, 2003)

Actually I believe we all knew that, hence the tongue out smiley implying silliness.  Just to prove it to you: Loki had to mate with a giants horse to keep the horse from helping the giant build a wall on time, so that the Gods wouldn't have to pay up some price (that escapes me at the moment).  And I said pet just because it was an animal that was treated as an animal (ridden about and such).  So yeah, don't take us so seriously.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 11, 2003)

Hi Clay_More mate! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *I wasn't kidding about the eight legged horse, even though it sounds like something from a bad American horror movie; "the return of the freaky-spider-horse from hell"*




Wow! I almost feel insulted you thought I was serious. 

Quite funny though. 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> *Anyways, did you ever see the Spirit stuff I posted Krust? Could be handy when youre doing Indian mythologies
> Think it sneaked down to pg 2 or 3 in the House Rules by now... *




Just saw it there now, still looking over it. Well detailed.


----------



## Gez (Aug 11, 2003)

seasong said:
			
		

> *Note: The eight-legged horse is Sleipnirr, and he's not a pet... he's Loki's son . *




The best part, though, is that Loki's his mother, not his father.


----------



## -Eä- (Aug 13, 2003)

I thought Sleipner had seven feet... Crap, if he has eight, it ain't a prime.


----------



## codewarriorpro (Aug 14, 2003)

*Chosen of Mystra Template*

Upper_Krust below is a template for the chosen of Mystra from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. WotC gives this template a CR+4. I was wondering what it would be using your system. 

*Chosen of Mystra Template * 
*(Effects function as if cast by a 20th level sorcerer)* 

*Bonus Spells (Sp):* A Chosen gains one bonus spell of each spell level 1st through 9th per day, which can be used as a spell-like ability. [CR+0.45]

*Spell Immunity(Su):* Chosen are immune to one spell of each spell level 1st through 9th, just as if spell immunity spell were constantly in effect upon them. [CR+0.45]?

*Immune to aging(Ex):* [CR+0.2]?
*Immune to disease(Ex):*  [CR+0.2]
*Immune to disintegration(Ex): * [CR+0.1]?
*Immune to poison(Ex):*  [CR+0.5]

*No need to sleep (although they must rest normally in order to be able to prepare spells):* [CR+0.1]?

*Detect Magic(Su):* Line of sight range [CR+0.05]?

*Silver Fire(Su): *
Can act as ring of warmth or a ring of mind shielding or allow the user to breath water or banish all external magical compulsions upon the user as if a greater dispelling spell were cast upon her. (Only one of the above effects can be used at any time) [CR+0.5]?

Function without food or water for up to 7 days (used once a tenday) [CR+0.05]?

Once every 70 minutes she can unleash  silver fire as a blast of flame. This blast may be in an area 5 feet wide and up to 70 feet long, breaking through barriers as a lightning bolt would and overcoming magical barriers and spell resistance automatically. The blast deals 4d12 points of fire damage (Reflex half DC 23). Alternately, the silver fire can be unleashed in a 70foot cone, dealing no damage but permanently restoring dead magic zones with the cone to normal and dispelling ( as a greater dispelling spell) any antimagic field effects that contact the cone. [CR+1]?



*Abilities:* +10 Enhancement Bonus to Constitution [CR+1]


*Total CR+4.5=CR+5*


----------



## Anubis (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: Chosen of Mystra Template*



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Total CR+4.5=CR+5 *




CR +4.5 would round to CR +4.  Fractions are dropped as per the core rules.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: Chosen of Mystra Template*

Hi there codewarriorpro! 



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Upper_Krust below is a template for the chosen of Mystra from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. WotC gives this template a CR+4. I was wondering what it would be using your system.*




I am sure I have looked over the Chosen of Bane and Mystra Templates before, but for the life of me I can't remember offhand so lets take a look. 



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Chosen of Mystra Template
> (Effects function as if cast by a 20th level sorcerer)
> 
> Bonus Spells (Sp): A Chosen gains one bonus spell of each spell level 1st through 9th per day, which can be used as a spell-like ability. [CR+0.45]*




I would go along with that.

45 (total levels) x 20 (caster level) x 0.0005 (1/day)



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Spell Immunity(Su): Chosen are immune to one spell of each spell level 1st through 9th, just as if spell immunity spell were constantly in effect upon them. [CR+0.45]?*




Tricky one this. Spell Immunity is at will remember.

Therefore 45 total levels (caster level 20th) x 0.0025 (At Will)

So CR +2.25



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Immune to aging(Ex): [CR+0.2]?
> Immune to disease(Ex):  [CR+0.2]
> Immune to poison(Ex): [CR+0.5]
> 
> No need to sleep (although they must rest normally in order to be able to prepare spells): [CR+0.1]?*




I could see the above being +1, so yes.



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Immune to disintegration(Ex):  [CR+0.1]?*




CR +0.2



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Detect Magic (Su): Line of sight range [CR+0.05]?*




CR +0.1

Detect Magic is 0th-level (treat as 1/2 level spell); however the range is about four or more time greater than usual so treat as 2 levels higher.



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Silver Fire(Su):
> Can act as ring of warmth or a ring of mind shielding or allow the user to breath water or banish all external magical compulsions upon the user as if a greater dispelling spell were cast upon her. (Only one of the above effects can be used at any time) [CR+0.5]?*




Probably +0.5



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Function without food or water for up to 7 days (used once a tenday) [CR+0.05]?*




More like +0.2



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Once every 70 minutes she can unleash  silver fire as a blast of flame. This blast may be in an area 5 feet wide and up to 70 feet long, breaking through barriers as a lightning bolt would and overcoming magical barriers and spell resistance automatically. The blast deals 4d12 points of fire damage (Reflex half DC 23). Alternately, the silver fire can be unleashed in a 70foot cone, dealing no damage but permanently restoring dead magic zones with the cone to normal and dispelling (as a greater dispelling spell) any antimagic field effects that contact the cone. [CR+1]?*




Another tricky one this, primarily because of the awkward delay.

CR +2 (0.8 for damage; 1.2 for Greater Dispel Magic)



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Abilities: +10 Enhancement Bonus to Constitution [CR+1]*




Yep.



			
				codewarriorpro said:
			
		

> *Total CR+4.5=CR+5 *




As Anubis rightfully mentioned +4.5 would be rounded down to +4.

0.45
2.25
1
0.2
0.1
0.5
0.2
2
1

The above works out at 7.7 (rounding to 7)

However I am not totally happy with the Silver Fire Cone rating, so its possible it could be +1 instead of +2, that would need further disection.

However the rest is fairly straightforward and seems at least +6 within my rules.

I seem to recall the Chosen of Bane Template was noticeably weaker.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Aug 14, 2003)

I don't think you can justifiably rate the spell immunity ability as a +2.24 abilty.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 15, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I don't think you can justifiably rate the spell immunity ability as a +2.24 abilty. *




I agree; I believe I have isolated the problem though.

Caster Level should always be minimum for Spell Immunity.

Therefore:

1:1 = 0.0025
2:3 = 0.015
3:5 = 0.0375
4:7 = 0.07
5:9 = 0.1125
6:11 = 0.165
7:13 = 0.2275
8:15 = 0.3
9:17  = 0.3825

Total therefore: +1.3125

That brings my total down to +6.76*

*With the Spellfire Cone still a concern.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Aug 18, 2003)

Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Errrr, umm, okay, Under your system will divine pets (i.e. that Eight legged horse Clay_more informed you of  ) Be more impressive than the crappy versions in D&Dg? *




Any answers Krusterino?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 18, 2003)

Hiya mate! 

Sorry for any delay (?) my computer has been down for the past two and a half days.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> *Any answers Krusterino? *




I thought I had answered this; indirectly at least.

'Divine Pets' can be as weak or as powerful as you want. Personally I don't see the point of making a standardised version of every animal when a Template can do the job far more easily.

Heres what WotC should have done for the Dire Animal Template:

- Increase generic Animal by one size category (with all commensurate benefits) and in the process double its Hit Dice.

Thats all they needed to do for that, but noooo, that would have been too easy.

Heres how to do Legendary Animals:

- Generic Animal gains the benefits of having its size increased two categories (and Hit Dice quodrupled); but retains its standard size.

- Alternately you could (instead of Quodrupling) simply add 12 Hit Dice. However, while that more closely parallels the WotC figures its somewhat incongrous.

Heres how to do Divine Animals:

- oh wait I'll save that for the book.


----------



## seasong (Aug 18, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Heres how to do Divine Animals:
> 
> - oh wait I'll save that for the book.



Bastard! Tease!

O Merciless Omnipotence, spare us thy burning wit and bring us the book. The precious, precious book! That we may look upon it and prosper! Look upon it and weep! Look upon it and form grave-robbing grins as the DMs of old once did!

(yeah, yeah, still waiting on WotC's durned D&Dg SRD stuff)

-seasong


----------



## Paragon (Aug 18, 2003)

GIVE ME THE @#$^&  BOOK!!!!   you don't understand I need it.......no really krust I do.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97 (Aug 19, 2003)

You know Krust... perhaps I could pay you for misc. services and you send me a free copy of the book.


----------



## Impeesa (Aug 19, 2003)

Yeah, I've been thinking for a while now... I should send him some cash in lieu of buying him a drink, and then he could maybe hook me up with a playtest copy by way of thanks... 

--Impeesa--


----------



## S'mon (Aug 19, 2003)

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Speaking of Mordenkainen's Disjunction, what's your opinion on that spell, UK?  I think it's terribly broken. *




We never had any problem with it in the 1e/2e Thrin campaign.  I guess maybe it's a bigger problem now because PCs are supposed to have exactly a certain amount of wealth at a certain level.  It's not the kind of spell that naturally gets used a lot - the stronger side won't want to use it as it reduces their loot.  Only a weaker side with access to 9th level spells facing opponents with particularly powerful magic items is likely to use it.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 19, 2003)

Hi all! 



			
				seasong said:
			
		

> *Bastard! Tease!*




I can't go around spoiling surprises now can I. 



			
				seasong said:
			
		

> *O Merciless Omnipotence, spare us thy burning wit and bring us the book. The precious, precious book! That we may look upon it and prosper! Look upon it and weep! Look upon it and form grave-robbing grins as the DMs of old once did!*




Won't be long now I'm sure. 



			
				seasong said:
			
		

> *(yeah, yeah, still waiting on WotC's durned D&Dg SRD stuff) *




Yep. 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> *GIVE ME THE @#$^& BOOK!!!! you don't understand I need it.......no really krust I do.  *




I appreciate the urgency mate.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 19, 2003)

Hello guys! 



			
				DarkWolf97[/i]
[B]You know Krust... perhaps I could pay you for misc. services and you send me a free copy of the book.[/B][/QUOTE]

We can discuss that sort of solution in a few weeks if WotC still haven't delivered the goods. ;)

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Impeesa said:
			
		

> *Yeah, I've been thinking for a while now... I should send him some cash in lieu of buying him a drink, and then he could maybe hook me up with a playtest copy by way of thanks...  *




Lets see where we are at the end of August. If WotC still haven't given us the SRD update I will make preparations to 'go it alone'; something I would have done a year ago if I had known they were going to stall so darn much.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 19, 2003)

Hey S'mon! 

Don't see you too often in here. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *We never had any problem with it in the 1e/2e Thrin campaign.  I guess maybe it's a bigger problem now because PCs are supposed to have exactly a certain amount of wealth at a certain level.  It's not the kind of spell that naturally gets used a lot - the stronger side won't want to use it as it reduces their loot.  Only a weaker side with access to 9th level spells facing opponents with particularly powerful magic items is likely to use it. *




The problem (as I see it) is twofold:

Firstly Mordenkainens Disjunction is now a standard action spell. Whereas before it was a 9 segment spell. Making it a far more viable attack spell. An epic wizard who won initiative could even cast a quickened Disjunction followed by another Disjunction before the opponent could react.

Secondly (as you touched upon) PCs are supposed to have a certain amount of wealth; but the main incongruity is that at high levels wealth affects certain classes differently. Taking away an epic Fighters magic items will hamstring them a lot worse than doing the same for any of the main spellcaster classes.

Personally I see it as a great (and probably overpowered) spell for wizards to inflict upon fighter types, which was why I advocated my minor change of checking the least expensive items first and stopping the effects when one item makes its save.


----------



## Gez (Aug 19, 2003)

Hello Krusty,

Have you emailed the people at WotC recently about that SRDification ?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 19, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> *Hello Krusty,*




Hi Gez mate! 

Hope the heat hasn't been unbearable for you the past few weeks.



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *Have you emailed the people at WotC recently about that SRDification ? *




Not lately, no.

I mean the word from Anthony Valterra was that the ELH would enter the SRD shortly after 3.5 was released and that D&Dg would shortly follow that.

Of course the terminology 'shortly' is subjective, and of course its not like WotC have to update the SRD at all - the whole OGL thing is really a boon for smaller outfits and I certainly wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds me in this respect. But it would be nice to have someone give some straight answers.

As I mentioned before; I could take it if the SRD wasn't being updated; its this whole cloud of uncertainty thats really grating.

I probably only have myself to blame though; perhaps I am too much the naive optimist? I mean I could have finished the book a year ago (of course it wouldn't have been the same book it is now; and certainly not as good - though thats another story). 

But at the back of my mind I just thought it would have been better received if it could marry the official epic and divine rules. Then everytime I spoke with WotC something on the horizon delayed the SRD update - first it was the Setting Contest; then d20 Modern; then D&D 3.5 and before you know it you have been waiting a year*! 

*and technically its still not finished because with no set deadline (as yet) you keep thinking well maybe I can improve this bit or that bit and each change you make ripples through the entire book necessitating more changes.

[/mad rant]

I'll email WotC right now and see what they say.


----------



## Gez (Aug 19, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hope the heat hasn't been unbearable for you the past few weeks.*




I survived. Thanks to vacations I could stay at home rather than have to go to the flat. Much fresher in my woods than in uptown Montpellier.


Let us know what WotC will reply. I hope it won't be delayed even further.


By the way, looking at the cosmology I built for my campaign world, I found out a theme that I find interesting. The higher you go in the "cosmic ladder", the less sentient you become. Mortals have free will, outsiders less so, gods are defined by their portfolios, and if you continue to look further it becames less and less beings, but more and more principles. The good thing with this is that you avoid CR 8000000000000000 creatures. I know you're adverse to drawing a line, but this creates a horizon rather than a firm line.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 19, 2003)

Hi Gez mate! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *I survived. Thanks to vacations I could stay at home rather than have to go to the flat. Much fresher in my woods than in uptown Montpellier.*




Glad to hear you weren't too bad - news here was painting the picture that France was in a bad way.



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *Let us know what WotC will reply. I hope it won't be delayed even further.*




I will.



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *By the way, looking at the cosmology I built for my campaign world, I found out a theme that I find interesting. The higher you go in the "cosmic ladder", the less sentient you become. Mortals have free will, outsiders less so, gods are defined by their portfolios, and if you continue to look further it becames less and less beings, but more and more principles. The good thing with this is that you avoid CR 8000000000000000 creatures. I know you're adverse to drawing a line, but this creates a horizon rather than a firm line. *




You could say the higher you ascend the closer you are to touching the truly divine.


----------



## S'mon (Aug 20, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> The problem (as I see it) is twofold:
> 
> Firstly Mordenkainens Disjunction is now a standard action spell. Whereas before it was a 9 segment spell. Making it a far more viable attack spell. An epic wizard who won initiative could even cast a quickened Disjunction followed by another Disjunction before the opponent could react.
> ...




Hm, I can see a good case for lengthening the casting time, maybe to a full minute.  Or make it a full round to cast, making it possibly castable in battle but very dangerous to do so.  I like the spell and I don't see why weak items would protect powerful ones the way you suggest.

Personally I would like to see the game less reliant on wealth-per-level.  I think wealth-per-level is good as a guideline when writing scenarios for the default power level, but it causes major problems such as NPCs having much less wealth than PCs of the same level even though they're supposedly the same CR.  If the PCs wealth is greatly out of line with anyone else of their power, logically lots of NPCs are going to make a beeline for them to steal their stuff (as Gygax noted in 1e DMG).
3.5e seems to mark a move away from reliance on buffs and particular amounts of magic-by-level (eg the change to DR bypassing), which I think is a good thing.


----------



## Anubis (Aug 20, 2003)

You guys think Mordenkainen's Disjunction is overpowered???

 

Um, no, it's perfectly in line with other spells of the same level, if not UNDERPOWERED.  All items get a save.  That is the balance.  Wail of the Banshee can cause FAR more damage.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Aug 20, 2003)

Anubis, I...


...Never mind.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 20, 2003)

Hi S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *Hm, I can see a good case for lengthening the casting time, maybe to a full minute.  Or make it a full round to cast, making it possibly castable in battle but very dangerous to do so.  I like the spell and I don't see why weak items would protect powerful ones the way you suggest.*




It wasn't that the weak items would protect powerful ones but rather the first succussful save would establish the 'limit' of that particular spell.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *Personally I would like to see the game less reliant on wealth-per-level.  I think wealth-per-level is good as a guideline when writing scenarios for the default power level, but it causes major problems such as NPCs having much less wealth than PCs of the same level even though they're supposedly the same CR.*




What I would suggest is to give NPCs 1/4 the wealth (of a PC of the same level), but remove the suggested limitations for single item value.

So an NPC would have fewer items but they would still be comparable in power to the PC.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *If the PCs wealth is greatly out of line with anyone else of their power, logically lots of NPCs are going to make a beeline for them to steal their stuff (as Gygax noted in 1e DMG).
> 3.5e seems to mark a move away from reliance on buffs and particular amounts of magic-by-level (eg the change to DR bypassing), which I think is a good thing. *




Have you picked 3.5 up yet then as I suggested?


----------



## S'mon (Aug 21, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi S'mon!
> 
> Have you picked 3.5 up yet then as I suggested? *




Hi Craig - I have the 3.5 PHB, my players picked up the DMG & MM.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 22, 2003)

Hi all! 

I tried to post this yesterday with no success.

I got talking to WotC and they mentioned that the SRD should be updated in about four weeks - although that time frame (as ever) wasn't set in stone.

So fingers crossed. 

Incidently I am taking steps to ensure I only need the ELH, and not D&Dg entered into the SRD - of course my work will still be 90% compatible with D&Dg.


----------



## Cheiromancer (Aug 22, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Lets see where we are at the end of August. If WotC still haven't given us the SRD update I will make preparations to 'go it alone'; something I would have done a year ago if I had known they were going to stall so darn much.
> 
> .....
> ...




So are you going to wait until the end of August, or "about four weeks"?

I think they are still stalling- I'm curious whether you have set a firm deadline or not.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 22, 2003)

Hi Cheiromancer mate! 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> *So are you going to wait until the end of August, or "about four weeks"?*




I'll see where I am, come the end of August.



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> *I think they are still stalling- I'm curious whether you have set a firm deadline or not. *




I will plan to have things all ready within 4 weeks, but I really can't operate without the ELH in the SRD. I can get away with the D&Dg not being there but not the ELH.

I don't want to have to grind out 100+ epic feats most of which do the exact same thing as the ones in the ELH. Its just going to confuse too many people.


----------



## Necropolis (Sep 7, 2003)

Hi Upper_Krust   

So we didn't talk to you for a long time now , so any new updates about the immortal handbook ?
About the new website ?
Release dates ?
Previews ?
Something ?

Hope to hear from you soon


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 7, 2003)

Necropolis said:
			
		

> Hi Upper_Krust




Hi Necropolis mate! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> So we didn't talk to you for a long time now ,




You always know where to find me mate. 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> so any new updates about the immortal handbook ?




Ummm, not just yet - let me get v4 finished and then I can concentrate on the IH (rather than switching my attention betwee the two as I am at the minute). 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> About the new website ?




I am torn between wanting to do it all myself or enlisting some outside help (at least in the short term).



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> Release dates ?




Hopefully the end of September for the first pdf. *fingers crossed*



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> Previews ?




I think I will worry more about previews when I have everything finished, I don't want to put the cart before the horse.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> Something ?




The new magic system is finished. 

...but the new Metamagic Feats are not.


----------



## Impeesa (Sep 12, 2003)

Question: What support is there in the system for a being who goes from mortal to immortal (and continues to gain power) by drawing directly on cosmic energy as an overdeity does (without having worshippers)? I thought of this specifically while trying to come up with a suitable analogue for the Planeswalkers in Magic: The Gathering, but it could cover a variety of other things as well (abominations who grow closer to their divine origins, things like that). 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 12, 2003)

Hi Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Question: What support is there in the system for a being who goes from mortal to immortal (and continues to gain power) by drawing directly on cosmic energy as an overdeity does (without having worshippers)?




Well don't be misleaded into thinking 'cosmic energy' just appears out of thin air; or indeed that overdeities specifically 'draw' cosmic energy. Such energy must already exist somewhere before it can be 'drawn'.

You don't get something from nothing. 

Most overdeities are unconcerned with worship for a number of reasons; firstly most predated mortal races and by extension worship; secondly the amount of worshippers you would need to become an overgod (depending on your definition of an overgod) is billions going on to trillions so its all much of a muchness; thirdly they probably already had a substantial reserve of cosmic energy so gaining worshippers (which is not a rapid process) is not really on their agendas.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> I thought of this specifically while trying to come up with a suitable analogue for the Planeswalkers in Magic: The Gathering, but it could cover a variety of other things as well (abominations who grow closer to their divine origins, things like that).




Divinity; whether from worshippers or not; is all measured in the same way.

So to answer your question my system supports all takes on divinity.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Sep 12, 2003)

UK, are there multiple legitimate ways to 'build' a deity?  I.E., a melee deity, a magic deity, a swift deity - Or do all deities sort of blur together in terms of combat tactics at higher levels?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 12, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> UK, are there multiple legitimate ways to 'build' a deity?  I.E., a melee deity, a magic deity, a swift deity - Or do all deities sort of blur together in terms of combat tactics at higher levels?




Very interesting question.

Analogous to super-hero gaming; which is something I touch upon in the Adventure/Campaigns section (deities in Modern settings; Sci-fi settings; Horror settings; Period settings etc.).

On the surface of course; Portfolios govern this sort of dynamic, but I must admit I am curious to see where I could push the boundaries of this idea.

There are indeed many parallels between deities and super-heroes; eccentuated by my own assimilation of The Mighty Thor over the years.

Does anyone else here read that comic? If not, why not - its a comic about gods among men; the closest thing out there to Immortals Handbook: the Comic. 

Perhaps toying further with the Iconics would be fun in achieving certain results?


----------



## Anabstercorian (Sep 12, 2003)

Okay, so, let's say this:  If Hennet, Krusk, Lidda, and Jozan began advancing past Epic in to the scale of Divinity, what sort of portfolios would you hook them with, and what sort of people do you think would worship them?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 13, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Okay, so, let's say this:  If Hennet, Krusk, Lidda, and Jozan began advancing past Epic in to the scale of Divinity, what sort of portfolios would you hook them with, and what sort of people do you think would worship them?




Difficult question to answer because it really is individual choice in many questions. I mean its not just a question of alignment or class stereotypes even; there are so many options to explore.

I mean Krusk could take the Strength portfolio (rather obvious) or the Fire Portfolio (he wields a flaming axe in his epic portrait), or take the Object portfolio and choose "Axe", or take the Death portfolio (maybe hes a headhunter) or the Race portfolio and take "Half-Orc" ~ is there a specific god of half-orcs I wonder?

The above only scratches the surface of the choices and combinations possible.

So really it could be anything, which is why I advocate playing characters as mortals before they become immortals - its gives you a better focus of how people see the character and how the character sees himself (or herself). Which is why I suggest the DM picks one portfolio (in essense how he thinks the character is perceived by the public) and the player picks the other (how they want to be perceived).


----------



## CRGreathouse (Sep 13, 2003)

*I yet live!*

OK, I've finally read all of this thread, and finished up the CR threads. My mind is filled with many Krust-isms and much information about the IH (most of which is probably too dated to have much meaning, admittedly).

I've had my share of good-natured arguments with U_K about CRs, but I stopped when I saw that his level of development was too far along to admit any radical changes to the fundamental system.  (The system has certainly improved since I last discussed it, though U_K's hubris about the perfection of his system has also increased. )

However, after reading this thread, I've been reminded of how applicable your system is to my world.  While I don't intend to run an Immortal-level campaign (as you call them), I do want to flesh out my pantheon more -- and my deities can be killed, by each other or by powerful mortals.

Most of this is covered in the second-lowest tier of your classification: Immortals.  I'd like to figure out if I have anything you'd classify above Immortals in my world, particularly the next two ranks: Sidereals and Eternals.  (I don't think I'd have any Supernals.)

For example, there are several examples of gods drawing power from the worship of lesser (not Lesser) gods.  There is a definite change in my deities as they increase in rank -- "less and less beings, but more and more principles" as Gez put it.

My question, in short: What, precisely, defines a sidereal?  You explain them as immortals are to mortals, sidereals are to immortals... but in what ways?  Worship?  Understanding?  How specialized and how abstract are sidereals (usually)?

I blame my questions on U_K for coming up with an interesting system.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Sep 13, 2003)

Oh, and while I'm asking questions, how do you classify quasi-deities/hero-deities?  Are they the weakest of the immortals (a subset of demideities), the most powerful of the mortals, or somewhere in between?

You listed the types of immortals as demigod, lesser god, intermediate god, and greater god, so I was curious about the implication of omission.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 13, 2003)

Hiya CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> OK, I've finally read all of this thread, and finished up the CR threads.




Kudos for effort. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> My mind is filled with many Krust-isms




You gotta love 'em. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> and much information about the IH (most of which is probably too dated to have much meaning, admittedly).




Thats probably a given. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I've had my share of good-natured arguments with U_K about CRs,




Absolutely mate, I enjoy the banter.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> but I stopped when I saw that his level of development was too far along to admit any radical changes to the fundamental system.




I am always open to integrating superior ideas wherever I find them and giving credit where its due.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> (The system has certainly improved since I last discussed it, though U_K's hubris about the perfection of his system has also increased. )




Heh. 

I think its the perfect system though the system is perhaps not perfect.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> However, after reading this thread, I've been reminded of how applicable your system is to my world.




Glad to be of help.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> While I don't intend to run an Immortal-level campaign (as you call them),




Hey, never say never! At any rate wait until you read the book.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I do want to flesh out my pantheon more -- and my deities can be killed, by each other or by powerful mortals.




A laudible stance.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Most of this is covered in the second-lowest tier of your classification: Immortals.




Which is where the bulk of the book 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'd like to figure out if I have anything you'd classify above Immortals in my world, particularly the next two ranks: Sidereals and Eternals.




Almost certainly a Sidereal or two; maybe not an Eternal depending on how you view things.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> (I don't think I'd have any Supernals.)




Few will, trust me. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> For example, there are several examples of gods drawing power from the worship of lesser (not Lesser) gods.  There is a definite change in my deities as they increase in rank -- "less and less beings, but more and more principles" as Gez put it.




Indeed, thats certainly one way to view it; although at a certain point that whole cosmological constant inverts.

The actual point of this inversion has given me pause; whether Eternal or Supernal.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> My question, in short: What, precisely, defines a sidereal? You explain them as immortals are to mortals, sidereals are to immortals... but in what ways?  Worship?  Understanding?  How specialized and how abstract are sidereals (usually)?




To me many things define a Sidereal. Ultimately its a measure of power; philosophically its a measure of ideals; quintessentially its a measure of dominion; by association its a measure of age. Any and all of the above.

Perhaps the best explanation of Sidereals is "there can be only one"...of course one 'what' - I'll leave for the book.  



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I blame my questions on U_K for coming up with an interesting system.




In future I'll know better.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 13, 2003)

Hello again mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Oh, and while I'm asking questions, how do you classify quasi-deities/hero-deities?  Are they the weakest of the immortals (a subset of demideities), the most powerful of the mortals, or somewhere in between?
> 
> You listed the types of immortals as demigod, lesser god, intermediate god, and greater god, so I was curious about the implication of omission.




I have an additional grouping of four called tentatively Paramortals: specifically: Disciples; Prophets; Hero-deities and Quasi-deities.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Sep 14, 2003)

What tier would Superman be placed on, in your mind?  At least, which tier would he most typically fall in to in terms of raw power, if not Divinity?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 14, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> What tier would Superman be placed on, in your mind?  At least, which tier would he most typically fall in to in terms of raw power, if not Divinity?




I think its clear that Superman would be in and around Intermediate God status. He is the closest comparison to Marvels Thor in the DC Universe; although Supermans physical ability scores are perhaps slightly higher.

According to my Thor tribute issue the following are comparative to Thor:

Tyr, Asgardian God of War
Leir, Celtic God of Lightning
The Hulk, Earths strongest man-monster
Pluto, Olympian God of Death
Ulik, Strongest of the Trolls
Horus; Egyptian Warrior God

The following are comparative to Odin:

Kurse
Zeus, Lord of Olympus
The Destroyer
Mangog
Silver Surfer (when he was the Herald of Galactus)
Thanos

(Obviously in the DC Universe the Highfather is akin to Odin and Darkseid is akin to Thanos.)

The following are more powerful than Odin:

Ego, the Living Planet
Ymir, the Frost Giant
Surtur, the Fire Demon
The Midgard Serpent
Galactus


----------



## Clay_More (Sep 15, 2003)

I can imagine it must be extremely hard to compare the deities, especially since the various myths and folklores use differents means of evaluating the strength of their deities. 

I would think that the Viking Mythos Thor might be even stronger than the Marvel equivelant. After all, in Scandinavian Folklore, Thor is said to have lowered the water level of all the oceans of the world by drinking from it, he lifted the Midgard Serpent from the ground (even though it was huge enough to reach around the entire world). He is even said to eat faster than fire itself (for some reason, most scandinavian gods are attributed with either drinking or eating something very fast when they are described....  well, at least it explains why we are as we are).

Since you are a man of mythological interests, will you include any guidelines for transferring real-life deities to the system? Many mythological tales have explanations of great deeds performed by the deities (shooting an arrow this far or that precisely, killing X number of X in X time, drinking or eating X amount of X, wielding a weapon that weighed X tons etc.), could these be used in any constructive way to determine the strength of the individual deity?

Anyways, Im rambling, my drunken and disorderly brain isn't operating on maximum capacity these days


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 15, 2003)

Hi Clay_More mate! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> I can imagine it must be extremely hard to compare the deities, especially since the various myths and folklores use differents means of evaluating the strength of their deities.




I think you have to objectively seperate the wheat from the chaff.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> I would think that the Viking Mythos Thor might be even stronger than the Marvel equivelant.




I really don't like the idea of non-Pantheon Rulers (or co-rulers) being Greater Gods. 

Thor would certainly be one of the most powerful Intermediate Gods though, for sure. Likewise so would Hades and Poseidon.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> After all, in Scandinavian Folklore, Thor is said to have lowered the water level of all the oceans of the world by drinking from it,




Yes, though I always wondered how his bladder was supposed to compress water. He must have been relieving himself while he drank. 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> he lifted the Midgard Serpent from the ground (even though it was huge enough to reach around the entire world).




Well, as I recall he lifted part of it. The Midgard Serpent was disguised to look like a giant house cat. As Thor tried to lift it, its body simply bent like a cats, the most he could manage was to lift its paw.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> He is even said to eat faster than fire itself




Well actually it was Loki who challenged 'Fire' to an eating contest in Utgard-Lokis castle and lost ~ since Fire consumed everything meal, plates and all.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> (for some reason, most scandinavian gods are attributed with either drinking or eating something very fast when they are described....  well, at least it explains why we are as we are).








			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> Since you are a man of mythological interests, will you include any guidelines for transferring real-life deities to the system?




'Real-life' deities you say! 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> Many mythological tales have explanations of great deeds performed by the deities (shooting an arrow this far or that precisely,




I think much of this can already be accomplished by epic feats, though I do add a few interesting Divine and Cosmic Gifts along these lines. 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> killing X number of X in X time,




All seems a bit abstract.   



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> drinking or eating X amount of X,




Probably indicative of high Constitution (eating lots) and Dexterity (eating very fast).

Though again there are always ways to do things better or faster.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> wielding a weapon that weighed X tons etc.),




I do have rules for such weapons. You could even have weapons made from collapsing stars or black holes.

Of course you do need the strength to wield them. 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> could these be used in any constructive way to determine the strength of the individual deity?




Absolutely. Can and are.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> Anyways, Im rambling, my drunken and disorderly brain isn't operating on maximum capacity these days




Try not to get too stressed at college mate.


----------



## Paragon (Sep 24, 2003)

*anything?*

Any new developments?  anything we can do to help?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 24, 2003)

Hey Paragon mate! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> Any new developments?




I think we can more or less go ahead with the first pdf. I'll just be careful with non-SRD epic material.

So if I am being honest I think I can wrap things up in about 2 weeks. But don't heed a word of that until I say its actually finished. You all know what I'm like by now. 

I still have to get v4 (of the CR/EL document) ready over the next day or so. I thought I would have it today, but I had (and have) some unexpected family business to attend to today (and tomorrow) and I had also underestimated how long it would take me to detail every monsters CR...I started last night and I only have the animals/vermin/epic and monsters 'A' finished so far. So only about 400 monsters to go. 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> anything we can do to help?




Just hang in there. 

I'm sorry for the protracted delay.


----------



## Impeesa (Sep 24, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I think we can more or less go ahead with the first pdf.




*faints*





			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'll just be careful with non-SRD epic material.




Can you call your reworked epic feats and stuff like that 'new' material? Or does that not even need to go in the first pdf? Also, if you need to cut stuff now for the sake of compliance, will it go back in the print version (assuming the SRD is properly updated by the time that comes around)?

--Impeesa--


----------



## Paragon (Sep 24, 2003)

you don't have anything to apologize for.  I was just curious.
good luck!!


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Sep 25, 2003)

So Krust, what are your thoughts on Vajra?  I spose its kind of a weapon, but it seems somewhat like an abstract concept sometimes almost.  Or maybe I'm crazy, whatever.  If it is indeed an item would you have any compulsion to stat it? (vink, vink)


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 25, 2003)

Hi Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> *faints*








			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Can you call your reworked epic feats and stuff like that 'new' material?




Ever since 3.5 I have been really downsizing the WotC related material in the Immortals Handbook (firstly eliminating all traces of D&Dg, then revising epic magic etc.)...to be honest this is something I should have done months ago...but without the benefit of hindsight... 

So I will try and rework as little epic material as possible.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Or does that not even need to go in the first pdf?




There is stuff I would use, but I think I may be able to circumvent most of it without hampering the rules.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Also, if you need to cut stuff now for the sake of compliance, will it go back in the print version (assuming the SRD is properly updated by the time that comes around)?




Absolutely.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 25, 2003)

Hey Paragon mate! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> you don't have anything to apologize for.  I was just curious.




In some respects I do have to apologise.

I have sort of been dragging my heels; mostly down to the intricacies of v4 getting in the way and my own exacting standards for the IH. I'll set myself a deadline of this Monday fortnight and hopefully I can have everything virtually finished by then. *touches wood*



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> good luck!!




I appreciate the support mate!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Sep 25, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> So Krust, what are your thoughts on Vajra?  I spose its kind of a weapon, but it seems somewhat like an abstract concept sometimes almost.  Or maybe I'm crazy, whatever.




Funnily enough I was just thinking about that (indirectly). I recently picked up the DC/Marvel Comics crossover JLA*Avengers. Which (to cut a long story short) involves the two heroic teams trying to find the six most powerful artifacts native to each reality.

'One' of the DC Universe items is the tripartite "Bell, Wheel and Jar". The idea taken from Hindu esoteria. The 'Wheel' in essence inspired by Vajra of course.

Though the DC version probably makes no such homage.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> If it is indeed an item would you have any compulsion to stat it? (vink, vink)




I might have something along those lines.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Sep 25, 2003)

I was just reading a website that looked at the kind of esoteric ideas of the vajra.  I was trying to watch a show about the life and work of Johnny Cash (  ) at the same time, so it may not have all sunk in, but it seemed to be a good article.  Then it linked to an article about other thunderbolt-weilding deities, unfortunately I had no time to read that, but I'll try to in the near future.  I'll hunt down the web adresses in case anyone wants them, in a day or so.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Sep 25, 2003)

Hey UK, you good designer you, check your hotmail for a message from me!

Wulf


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Sep 26, 2003)

Hello Upper Krust! Would you help me with a divine character in my campaign? He is an immortal God-Emperor of Karshemish, biggest nation on continent similar to Africa, which is currently threatened by a coalition of so called "Overmasters", seven powerful epic spellcasters resembling The Taken from Black Company series or Forsaken from Wheel of Time( both great books by the way). His name is Sarkhar, and it was him who summoned my players( four characters levels 23-24), to help against Overmasters. He is an ascended Demigod with Divine Rank around 2 or 3, of LN alignment with good tendencies( channeling positive energy), his Portfolios are  Sun/Glory and Law/Justice( he is a patron of a very hierarchical society), his Clerics choose Sun/Strenght/ Law as their Domains, and has 25 Cleric levels. So Upper Krust, what Divine powers would he have with your system diffrent than in Deities and Demigods?


----------



## Aelryinth (Sep 26, 2003)

_Abnergazer, Rath and Ghast,
Demons out of Eons Past,
Here before me stand you now,
All your powers me Endow!_


==Aelryinth


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Oct 1, 2003)

This thread deserves place much closer to the top!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 2, 2003)

Hi all! 

I don't know how but I seem to have missed these latest replies!?   

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> I was just reading a website that looked at the kind of esoteric ideas of the vajra.




Some of the Indian mythos really has some pearls of wisdom. They really do go into the philosophy of it spiritualism and mysticism.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> I was trying to watch a show about the life and work of Johnny Cash (  ) at the same time,




Sad news indeed.



			
				Bjorn Doneerson said:
			
		

> so it may not have all sunk in, but it seemed to be a good article. Then it linked to an article about other thunderbolt-weilding deities, unfortunately I had no time to read that, but I'll try to in the near future.  I'll hunt down the web adresses in case anyone wants them, in a day or so.




Sure, I'll take a look.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 2, 2003)

Hi Wulf mate! 



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Hey UK, you good designer you, check your hotmail for a message from me!




You actually had me puzzled there for a minute then I realised your post was from six days ago. DOH!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 2, 2003)

Apologies for the slow reply mate. Dunno how these posts got past me, I really don't.   



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> Hello Upper Krust! Would you help me with a divine character in my campaign?




Of course, if I can.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> He is an immortal God-Emperor of Karshemish, biggest nation on continent similar to Africa, which is currently threatened by a coalition of so called "Overmasters", seven powerful epic spellcasters resembling The Taken from Black Company series or Forsaken from Wheel of Time (both great books by the way). His name is Sarkhar, and it was him who summoned my players (four characters levels 23-24), to help against Overmasters. He is an ascended Demigod with Divine Rank around 2 or 3, of LN alignment with good tendencies (channeling positive energy), his Portfolios are  Sun/Glory and Law/Justice (he is a patron of a very hierarchical society), his Clerics choose Sun/Strenght/ Law as their Domains, and has 25 Cleric levels. So Upper Krust, what Divine powers would he have with your system diffrent than in Deities and Demigods?




Okay so firstly forget that poncy Divine Rank mumbo-jumbo. Hes a Demigod; that means he gets 6 Divine Gifts (roughly equivalent to the Salient Divine Abilities)...or he could trade five of those for one Cosmic Gift.

I am presuming since his Clerics get the Strength Domain he is something of a 'Warrior Priest' himself right?

I tell you what. I'll let you pick the Divine Gifts. You give me six numbers between 1-130; or one Divine Gift and one Cosmic Gift (pick one number between 1-80) and I will tell you what they are. 

I'm only going to do this once mind you and I won't be held responsible if you wind up picking some of the more 'meat and potatoes' Divine Gifts like Regenerator or Shapechanger.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 2, 2003)

Hi Aelryinth! 



			
				Aelryinth said:
			
		

> _Abnergazer, Rath and Ghast,
> Demons out of Eons Past,
> Here before me stand you now,
> All your powers me Endow!_




You had me for a split second there. I don't know my DC Universe as good as my Marvel Universe, I prefer Marvels seeming extra tier of cosmic beings, something that is much rarer in DC.

But I must admit comics like Lucifer; Dr Fate; The Spectre among a few others (any recommendations anyone; the prerequisite is that they must be able to drop Superman like a bag of dirt) are high on my list when I have the funds to splash out.

By the way I love your sig. May I ask where thats taken from?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 2, 2003)

Hello again mate! 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> This thread deserves place much closer to the top!




Normally I hate the 'b' word, but in this case you did me a favour.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Oct 2, 2003)

If a character wanted to exchange an entire level of character development for a single Divine Gift, do you think that would be reasonable?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 2, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> If a character wanted to exchange an entire level of character development for a single Divine Gift, do you think that would be reasonable?




I think it would certainly be balanced (in fact one of the Divine Gifts actually bestows an extra level), as to whether it would be 'reasonable' I think would depend on the circumstances. 

Generally I advocate allowing characters to expend five feat slots and perform an esoteric quest to gain one Divine Gift (provided they also meet the prerequisites - which don't involve things like Divine Rank in my book).


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Oct 2, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Apologies for the slow reply mate. Dunno how these posts got past me, I really don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This character is actually similar to Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt, absolute ruler of his people in both secular and divine matters, since they aren`t divided in this culture. He was indeed a mighty warrior once, cleric devoted to deities of Pharonic Pantheon, who was elevated to godhood by Horus-Re 500 years ago. He created a very elaborated society that in his opinion is closest possible to the ideals of Maa`t, but he can`t see that it is also a bit stagnatic and even xenophobic. I actually wanted his clerics to have more Domains, like Nobility, War or even Tyranny for some closer to LE, but according to Deities and Demigods he can posess only 3 without additional Salient Divine Abilities. Is it diffrent in your system?

I would like to choose Divine Gifts 5, 20, 35, 67, 89, 112, but it would be easier for me if you could choose some suitable for such a Deity, he could be descibed as a more LN version of Horus-RE( or Re-Horakhty).  Thanks anyway!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 2, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> This character is actually similar to Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt, absolute ruler of his people in both secular and divine matters, since they aren`t divided in this culture. He was indeed a mighty warrior once, cleric devoted to deities of Pharonic Pantheon, who was elevated to godhood by Horus-Re 500 years ago. He created a very elaborated society that in his opinion is closest possible to the ideals of Maa`t, but he can`t see that it is also a bit stagnatic and even xenophobic. I actually wanted his clerics to have more Domains, like Nobility, War or even Tyranny for some closer to LE, but according to Deities and Demigods he can posess only 3 without additional Salient Divine Abilities. Is it diffrent in your system?




I allow alignment plus two others. So your character would have the Law Domain and any other two.

Characters with extreme alignments gain 4 Domains to start; others gain 3 and Neutral deities only gain 2. However, the more extreme the alignment the more limited their choice of worshippers. 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> I would like to choose Divine Gifts 5, 20, 35, 67, 89, 112, but it would be easier for me if you could choose some suitable for such a Deity, he could be descibed as a more LN version of Horus-RE( or Re-Horakhty).  Thanks anyway!




After looking over your choices I agree that that was a bad idea on my part since some of those chosen were unsuitable. Its a lot more difficult going over them than say feats; because they are a lot less specifically targeted towards certain classes.

There is a Cosmic Gift called Authority that might very well be the sort of thing you are after; its a lot like a more powerful version of Rulership. 

He could combine that with a Divine Gift called Divine [Effect]* and choose the wrath option which would be like a gaze weapon variant of the Divine Blast.

*You get to choose from one of ten different delivery methods (eg. Blast; Breath; Immolation etc.) 

Or he could have the Divine Inheritance gift which allows him to borrow the Divine Gifts of others. 

Perfect Body gives you the full +5 inherant bonuses for your physical stats (Con/Dex/Str). 

Third Eye lets you gaze into your opponents soul and learn their strengths and weaknesses.

Dharma gives you parity with any single ability your opponent possesses.


...I could go on, but I don't like giving things away. 

Like I said its very difficult to choose Gifts for any one character because they are far more open-ended than feats. Its not like taking a fighter and you have a very limited choice of feats; I estimate the Divine Gifts are about 75%+ universal.


----------



## Bjorn Doneerson (Oct 2, 2003)

Yo, Krust, and anyone else interested the Vajra article is at http://www.khandro.net/ritual_vajra.htm  and other thunder type symbols are discussed in one of the bulleted links at the bottom of that page.  The link "button" should say "Thunder."


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Oct 2, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So can a Deity get additional Domains, I assume that it is possible through Divine Gifts? I use additional Domains from FRCS and other sources, so most Deities have 4 or 5 Domains.

It seems that Authority and Divine Wrath( Immolation) would be suitable for this character, I will also change his Domains to Law/Nobilty/War and Portfolios would be Rulership and War. I am curious of how will it affect his stats, since he might see action before your masterpiece comes to my desired posession( unless he dies off-screen destroyed by couple of Overmasters).


----------



## poilbrun (Oct 3, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Perfect Body gives you the full +5 inherant bonuses for your physical stats (Con/Dex/Str).



Wouldn't that be "wasting" a divine gift? Except if it is stackable with wishes (and since the bonus is the same, inherant, it shouldn't stack), it looks like a great gift for "low-level" deities, but a waste in long term, since I guess that every deity will eventually be able to have 5 wishes cast on them for every ability. Of course, at the time of D&Dg, WotC showed us a very low-level deity (god of beggar, if I remember correctly). In such case, the divine gift might be useful, even though I still believe it would be a poor choice since it will more or less become obsolete (at which point, I don't know, since 5 wishes per ability score is 150,000 XP, but if I remember correctly, gods will be able to use Worship Points instead of XP in spells).

Anyway, enough rambling. Give us the IH, so that I can look at all the gifts!  

I wanted to tease you and say "Give us the IH, so that I can see if all the divine gifts are such a waste", but I wasn't sure I would be able to convey sarcasm caused by frustration with a smiley!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 3, 2003)

Hi Melkor mate! 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> So can a Deity get additional Domains, I assume that it is possible through Divine Gifts? I use additional Domains from FRCS and other sources, so most Deities have 4 or 5 Domains.




Yeah you can get additional Domains (from Divine Gifts) and additional Portfolios (from Cosmic Gifts).



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> It seems that Authority and Divine Wrath (Immolation) would be suitable for this character,




Divine Wrath is the gaze weapon version; Divine Immolation would be the death throes version; Divine Blast is the ray attack version etc. 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> I will also change his Domains to Law/Nobilty/War and Portfolios would be Rulership and War. I am curious of how will it affect his stats, since he might see action before your masterpiece comes to my desired posession (unless he dies off-screen destroyed by couple of Overmasters).




The benefits of Portfolios are multifaceted but won't necessarily change his 'stats' as such. To be honest the only way to explain it would be to post one of the Portfolios...but I don't really want to do that just yet. Sorry.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 3, 2003)

Hi poil brun mate! 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that be "wasting" a divine gift? Except if it is stackable with wishes (and since the bonus is the same, inherant, it shouldn't stack),




It doesn't stack. Its a 'quick fix' for those who don't have liberal access to Wish/Miracle magic.



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> it looks like a great gift for "low-level" deities, but a waste in long term, since I guess that every deity will eventually be able to have 5 wishes cast on them for every ability.




Deities below Demigod status gain Divine Gifts in my system.

So you could even have one of your Disciples take this gift...so you can see the benefits.



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Of course, at the time of D&Dg, WotC showed us a very low-level deity (god of beggar, if I remember correctly). In such case, the divine gift might be useful, even though I still believe it would be a poor choice since it will more or less become obsolete (at which point, I don't know, since 5 wishes per ability score is 150,000 XP, but if I remember correctly, gods will be able to use Worship Points instead of XP in spells).




Exactly. But would they want to expend Worship Points for this?

Also you hit the nail on the head; when you used the word 'choice'. 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Anyway, enough rambling. Give us the IH, so that I can look at all the gifts!




Soon my friend, soon. 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> I wanted to tease you and say "Give us the IH, so that I can see if all the divine gifts are such a waste", but I wasn't sure I would be able to convey sarcasm caused by frustration with a smiley!




You guys know you can say what you like and I will take it all in good spirits.


----------



## Paragon (Oct 9, 2003)

any new updates?
anything?
word.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2003)

Hi paragon mate! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> any new updates?
> anything?
> word.




Nothing new on the IH front at the moment because I am 100% into getting v4 finished.

Which reminds me I should give everyone an update in that thread.

Once I get this v4 out of the way it will be full steam ahead for the IH. 

I'll give you an update on the IH in a week or two; it should be ready for the editor by then.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Oct 20, 2003)

Hey all.  I have a new 'puter and internet service, and the old screenname (Bjorn Doneerson) doesn't seem to like me very much and won't work, so I scrapped it and made a new one.  Holy crap was that a long-arse sentence.  Anyway, Krustward, you're starting to give me issues w/ naming conventions for a campaign-thingy I'm trying to work out.  I'm trying to get a cool (preferably mythologically based, but whatever...) name for a race of demons who were already in Hell when Satan et al showed up, but it occurs to me if it turns out to be something you used for a creature race or something it'll screw me all up.  So could you kindly, a) gimme a name that you aren't using or 2) gimme a name you are using that'll fit?  Or not, your choice.  Don't want to sound too demanding, but yeah.  Figure its about time to resuscitate the old thread anyway.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 21, 2003)

been trying to post for 20 hours, lets see if this works now...

Hiya Bjorn mate! 

Good to have you back. Have you seen v4 yet in the other thread here?



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> I have a new 'puter and internet service, and the old screenname (Bjorn Doneerson) doesn't seem to like me very much and won't work, so I scrapped it and made a new one.




These boards eh. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Holy crap was that a long-arse sentence.




Easy tiger there could be women and children presnt! This ain't Nutkinland y'know. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Anyway, Krustward, you're starting to give me issues w/ naming conventions for a campaign-thingy I'm trying to work out.  I'm trying to get a cool (preferably mythologically based, but whatever...) name for a race of demons who were already in Hell when Satan et al showed up, but it occurs to me if it turns out to be something you used for a creature race or something it'll screw me all up.  So could you kindly, a) gimme a name that you aren't using or 2) gimme a name you are using that'll fit?  Or not, your choice.  Don't want to sound too demanding, but yeah.  Figure its about time to resuscitate the old thread anyway.




Well there are a few things I want to do with the Qlippoth (or Klippoth, depending on which way you want to spell it). I know in Green Ronins mythology they are the forebearers of the Tanar'ri or somesuch, but I have much more sinister plans for them. 

I suppose you could use the term Ancient Baatorians (which is something from Planescape that they never really fleshed out at WotC). Obviously the word Baatorian is not OGL so I can't really use it.


----------



## historian (Oct 21, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> been trying to post for 20 hours, lets see if this works now...
> 
> Hiya Bjorn mate!
> 
> ...




Hello Krust, it's been awhile since I've posted, but my interest in the IH hasn't waned-Bjorn's idea grabbed my attention (cool idea).

I printed v4 out last night and it looks great, although I'm not much of a technical critic (not that I've reason to believe that it would have any flaws whatsoever).

I'm wondering if, as the release of the IH draws nearer, you could post your version of IG Thanos-redacting any special powers, abilities, names, etc. that would spoil the surprise of your pending work?  If not, I'm guessing I could take a stab at reverse engineering based on your guidelines, but I'm afraid I might not capture the flavor that your efforts would.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 21, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust,




Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> it's been awhile since I've posted, but my interest in the IH hasn't waned




I should have had it ready by now, things just seem to have a way of getting on top of you. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> -Bjorn's idea grabbed my attention (cool idea).








			
				historian said:
			
		

> I printed v4 out last night and it looks great,




Glad you like it.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> although I'm not much of a technical critic (not that I've reason to believe that it would have any flaws whatsoever).




Well it works, but there are always seemingly tiny improvements that can be made.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if, as the release of the IH draws nearer, you could post your version of IG Thanos-redacting any special powers, abilities, names, etc. that would spoil the surprise of your pending work?  If not, I'm guessing I could take a stab at reverse engineering based on your guidelines, but I'm afraid I might not capture the flavor that your efforts would.
> 
> Thanks in advance!




Well what if I told you that Thanos is actually going to be in the IH...indirectly of course, since I don't think Marvel would take too kindly to such an afront on my part.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Oct 21, 2003)

Hey, Krust, v4 would be the CR thingie correct?  I haven't looked into it as of yet, because I'm not much inclined to the more mathematical aspects of the game....

Alright Ancient Baatorian may work for now.  Thanks.  

And to the historian, I get the feeling the idea isn't mine, but I don't remember where I stole it from.  I'll get back to you on that.  It could relate to the ancient Baatorians as mentioned above, but I have this suspicion I've heard it somewhere else too.

Edit- I seem to remember now, some website referencing a peace of literature in which, during Satan's fall, he meets Demogorgon (described by the website as having a name so evil it is blasphemous to even know it exists." How's that for a catch 22, eh?) Of course I can't find it again, so it is entirely possible I'm mqaking this up.  Oh well.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 22, 2003)

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Hey, Krust, v4 would be the CR thingie correct?  I haven't looked into it as of yet, because I'm not much inclined to the more mathematical aspects of the game....




Thats okay, mate. Although the back of the pdf does have some pages on Monster Creation and Design you might be interested in for detailing the Ancient Baatorians. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Alright Ancient Baatorian may work for now.  Thanks.




Thanks WotC. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> And to the historian, I get the feeling the idea isn't mine, but I don't remember where I stole it from.  I'll get back to you on that.  It could relate to the ancient Baatorians as mentioned above, but I have this suspicion I've heard it somewhere else too.
> 
> Edit- I seem to remember now, some website referencing a peace of literature in which, during Satan's fall, he meets Demogorgon (described by the website as having a name so evil it is blasphemous to even know it exists." How's that for a catch 22, eh?) Of course I can't find it again, so it is entirely possible I'm mqaking this up.  Oh well.




Demogorgon (and Orcus I think) are indeed referenced in John Miltons Paradise Lost. You can read it here:

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?action=openPageViewer&docId=98106232


----------



## historian (Oct 22, 2003)

SWEET, Thanos, err .. whatever that character's name is, is going to be in the IH!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 22, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> SWEET, Thanos, err .. whatever that character's name is, is going to be in the IH!




Lets just say it will be Thanos in spirit. 

By the way did you know theres a new Thanos comic run recently started? I have it on order but I haven't picked it up yet.


----------



## historian (Oct 22, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi historian mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, I heard that it's going to be an ongoing series, w/Starlin penciling the first 6 issues.  I'm looking very forward to it, but don't have it on order (I live close-by a first-rate outfit) - I wasn't aware it was out yet.  That gives me something to aim for tomorrow evening.  

I really enjoyed 'The END' and thought the 'Infinity Abyss' was better than credited (love the concept).  An ongoing series would REALLY ROCK!!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 23, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Yeah, I heard that it's going to be an ongoing series, w/Starlin penciling the first 6 issues.




I haven't really liked any of the art of Starlin since Infinity Gauntlet. Though I am not sure if its his penciling or 'whoevers' inking thats ruining it for me.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm looking very forward to it, but don't have it on order (I live close-by a first-rate outfit) - I wasn't aware it was out yet.  That gives me something to aim for tomorrow evening.




While I am looking forward to it, surely its much too soon after 'THE END' to be bringing him back. Gives that book less gravitas.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I really enjoyed 'The END'




I thought it was fantastic, especially the end (no pun intended).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> and thought the 'Infinity Abyss' was better than credited (love the concept).




It was good but I thought the ending was badly thought out. I mean if it was that easy to kill Galactus it would have been done years ago, wouldn't it!? ...and this being was considered twice as powerful as Galactus.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> An ongoing series would REALLY ROCK!!




Hopefully yes. It will certainly be interesting to see where Starlin takes Thanos who is virtually a 'hero' (albeit a reluctant one) in most of his last appearances.


----------



## historian (Oct 23, 2003)

Wait til' I get the IH, I'll give you something that could smack super-Galactus around.    

What is your take on Thanos' alignment?  I suppose it is possible to have a an evil hero of sorts, or a villain who is relatively heroic based on his aggression against even more evil villains (Vecna v. Iuz (sp?) for example).


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 23, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Wait til' I get the IH, I'll give you something that could smack super-Galactus around.




I have stuff in there that could do that already. 

The CR range of the Monsters alone is 20-1000 (thats before Templates). 

Still a few monsters undecided however. 

*I wonder would people rather see more Unique Monsters or more Generic* Monsters?*

*By generic I mean as in a race - more than one of them exists.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> What is your take on Thanos' alignment?  I suppose it is possible to have a an evil hero of sorts, or a villain who is relatively heroic based on his aggression against even more evil villains (Vecna v. Iuz (sp?) for example).




He certainly started Neutral Evil, but by THE END he was probably (a reluctant) Neutral Good.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Oct 24, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *I wonder would people rather see more Unique Monsters or more Generic* Monsters?*




Normally I might say Unique Monsters, but somehow, at this level of play, I'd like to see more races.  I just feel mythology gives us enough unique beasties running around, but uber-races are hard to find.  I'd be particularly interested in any angelic or demonic & diabolical critters you may have (Qlippoth apparently, and possibly Huper-Ouranoi {or something like that}?  and whatver else) But that's just me.  Although personally I've always felt that the ELH should've had some kind of one-of-a-kind critter that was obnoxiously tough (a la Tarrasque) for Epic play.  So Unique creatures defininantely serve a purpose.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Oct 24, 2003)

Epic Races clearly have a place in gaming - Look at the Saiya-Jin, for crying out loud.  Or that species that Edena_Of_Neith pulled out at the very end of the Third IR - The Taraakians, or something like that.  A higher order should exist, but the more potent a species is, the more difficult it should be to actually FIND them.


----------



## Alzrius (Oct 24, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I wonder would people rather see more Unique Monsters or more Generic* Monsters?
> 
> *By generic I mean as in a race - more than one of them exists.




This question generally begs a DM to question the existing cosmology of his campaign.

Having an uber-Epic race is not something to be taken lightly. It forces the DM to have answers to quite a few questions about his campaign, such as "Why doesn't this race dominate the world/universe/existence already if they're so tough?" or worse, if the campaign has already started "Why haven't we ever heard about these super-powered beings?" Unless this race has a racial history built in that answers all of this, that becomes very hard for a DM to deal with. Given that, I'd say that people would want Unique Monsters more.

Also, a Unique Monster practically spells out that its a unique encounter...an epic battle not to be soon forgotten. But its one thing to defeat the singular Horror From Beyond the Universe. It's quite another thing to defeat that and then learn its just one of many. A race of beings that strong is daunting, and intimidating, for a DM to use.

Just my two cents on the issue.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Oct 24, 2003)

Hi Krust!

Almost afraid to ask, but any news on the rumored website with teasers from the IH?

Also, I remember you talking about a hardcover coming out with the entire IH. Any details about that (pages, color, price, extra goodies etc)?

Waiting....waiting....


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 24, 2003)

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Normally I might say Unique Monsters, but somehow, at this level of play, I'd like to see more races.




Looking at the list right now its about 85% generic/15% specific.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> I just feel mythology gives us enough unique beasties running around, but uber-races are hard to find.  I'd be particularly interested in any angelic or demonic & diabolical critters you may have (Qlippoth apparently, and possibly Huper-Ouranoi {or something like that}?  and whatver else) But that's just me.




Obviously I have the angels covered. 

I should have at least one generic and one specific Daemon/Demon/Devil in there.

I was going to have a new (Silver) Slaad but it appears they are not OGL.   



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Although personally I've always felt that the ELH should've had some kind of one-of-a-kind critter that was obnoxiously tough (a la Tarrasque) for Epic play.




If I was going to have something like that I would probably call it the Beast of Gorgiron. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> So Unique creatures defininantely serve a purpose.




I just want to get a good balance.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 24, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian matey! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Epic Races clearly have a place in gaming - Look at the Saiya-Jin, for crying out loud.  Or that species that Edena_Of_Neith pulled out at the very end of the Third IR - The Taraakians, or something like that.  A higher order should exist, but the more potent a species is, the more difficult it should be to actually FIND them.




I have five major epic races. The sort that could threaten a Pantheon _en masse_. Hopefully that will be enough.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 24, 2003)

Hi Alzrius mate! 

I do love those little kitten avatars. So cute. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> This question generally begs a DM to question the existing cosmology of his campaign.
> 
> Having an uber-Epic race is not something to be taken lightly. It forces the DM to have answers to quite a few questions about his campaign, such as "Why doesn't this race dominate the world/universe/existence already if they're so tough?" or worse, if the campaign has already started "Why haven't we ever heard about these super-powered beings?" Unless this race has a racial history built in that answers all of this, that becomes very hard for a DM to deal with. Given that, I'd say that people would want Unique Monsters more.




What if I could present plausible explanations for the races? 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, a Unique Monster practically spells out that its a unique encounter




Thats what a few people have mentioned to me, leading me to think that maybe the 85% generic build of the monster chapter of the IH should include a higher percentage of unique encounters.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> ...an epic battle not to be soon forgotten. But its one thing to defeat the singular Horror From Beyond the Universe. It's quite another thing to defeat that and then learn its just one of many. A race of beings that strong is daunting, and intimidating, for a DM to use.




Though that is one way of using any monstrous race, and a staple of epic stories.

PCs: "That was one tough fight."
Enemies dying breath: "...I am...but a footsoldier...in the army of...*dies*"
PCs: "Get Odin on the crystal ball; we are going to need reinforcements."





			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Just my two cents on the issue.




Thanks for the feedback mate!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 24, 2003)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Hi Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> Almost afraid to ask, but any news on the rumored website with teasers from the IH?




No because am still seemingly embroiled in v4 shenanigans. 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> Also, I remember you talking about a hardcover coming out with the entire IH. Any details about that (pages, color, price, extra goodies etc)?




Nothing you haven't heard before: 320 pages; almost certainly B&W; probably about $35; extra goodies based on feedback from the pdfs I would envision; or maybe the inclusion of the Psioni-centricweb enhancement.



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> Waiting....waiting....


----------



## CRGreathouse (Oct 24, 2003)

I'd prefer generic to unique, personally.  If there's a good framework to start from, I can make my own uniques to suit my campaign -- but generics, interwoven and explained by the Master of the IH, could be much more useful.


----------



## historian (Oct 24, 2003)

Howdy Krust,

On the topic of races v. unique encounters, do you plan to have something akin to the paragon template (not including levels of divinity) that would provide a means outside of adding class levels/HD to a member of a race that would significantly boost its power/categorically distinguish it from other members of the race.  The reason that I ask is that adding that paragon template (+28 CR) to a race that has a base CR of 325 really wouldn't add much.  Also, the rationale behind the paragon template ("the first of the species" or some such) fits well with some of the more "mundane" critters (vampires, beholders, basic slaadi), it would seem out of flavor (IMO) with uber-races that might have virtually infinite life spans or the like.  I'm interested in your thoughts.

The Beast of Gorgiron sounds sweet   - but you've got me stumped on how you came up w/it.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97 (Oct 24, 2003)

Hey there UK!

    On the Unique vs Generic deal, I'd love to see both. Although you can put me with Bjorn, I'd love to see a unique Demon/Devil/Angel, and I'm sure you could use Demogorgon (its in the dictionary) or Asmodeus. Unless they are Divine to you?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 24, 2003)

Hi CRGreathouse! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'd prefer generic to unique, personally.  If there's a good framework to start from, I can make my own uniques to suit my campaign -- but generics, interwoven and explained by the Master of the IH, could be much more useful.




Well I have plenty of those for you.

Thanks for the feedback mate.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 24, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust,




Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> On the topic of races v. unique encounters, do you plan to have something akin to the paragon template (not including levels of divinity) that would provide a means outside of adding class levels/HD to a member of a race that would significantly boost its power/categorically distinguish it from other members of the race.  The reason that I ask is that adding that paragon template (+28 CR) to a race that has a base CR of 325 really wouldn't add much.  Also, the rationale behind the paragon template ("the first of the species" or some such) fits well with some of the more "mundane" critters (vampires, beholders, basic slaadi), it would seem out of flavor (IMO) with uber-races that might have virtually infinite life spans or the like.  I'm interested in your thoughts.




Yes I have been tweaking some god-level templates. The ELH in my opinion has templates roughly akin to the following:

Worm that Walks akin to Hero-deity Template
Pseudonatural akin to Quasi-deity Template
Paragon akin to Demi-deity Template
Demilich akin to Lesser Deity Template

Of course I wanted to have Monstrous templates that went well beyond this. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The Beast of Gorgiron sounds sweet   - but you've got me stumped on how you came up w/it.




The Beast of Gorgiron was originally a creation of S'mons (I have 3 or 4 of his monsters that we faced, in the IH), however I have of course completely revamped it for todays game. In fact it really only bears the name at this point.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 24, 2003)

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hey there UK!




Hiya Dark Wolf matey!  



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> On the Unique vs Generic deal, I'd love to see both.




I appreciate the support mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Although you can put me with Bjorn, I'd love to see a unique Demon/Devil/Angel,




I'll have a few interesting types for you don't worry. 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> and I'm sure you could use Demogorgon (its in the dictionary) or Asmodeus. Unless they are Divine to you?




Not sure I would really want to do a Demogorgon that wasn't a total rip off of the existing uberfiend we all know and love. So that may not happen. Officially at least. 

But I *may* have a version of Asmodeus in there.

I have all the dimensional and the planar hierarchies fleshed out as well so that might be interesting to some of you I hope.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97 (Oct 25, 2003)

The heirarchies and stuff is one of my main interests, although I am sure I'll modify it for my up-and-coming campaign.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Oct 25, 2003)

I was looking over your classification of beings:

Mortal: 4
Paramortal: Disciple; Prophet; Hero-deity; Quasi-deity
Immortal: Demigod; Lesser God; Intermediate God; Greater God
Sidereal: 4
Eternal: 4
Supernal: 72

and I wondered if there's anything else you can tell us.  How are mortals divided?  Are there actual changes in stats, or do the divisions already exist in the standard rules?

What makes a Time Lord a Time Lord?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 25, 2003)

Hi Dark Wolf mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> The heirarchies and stuff is one of my main interests, although I am sure I'll modify it for my up-and-coming campaign.




Well thats your prerogative dude, I just hope you like what I've come up with.

I like the juxtaposition of Dimensional Hierarchies (sort of like cosmic Pantheons) with the Planar Hierarchies* (more akin to divine Pantheons).

*Such as the Demonium.

Not sure just how I will be refering to the Modrons and Slaad at this point since they are not OGL.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 25, 2003)

Hi CR Greathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I was looking over your classification of beings:
> 
> Mortal: 4
> Paramortal: Disciple; Prophet; Hero-deity; Quasi-deity
> ...




Theres certainly nothing I plan on 'volunteering'; but I may answer a question or two. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> How are mortals divided?




Mortal: Typical; Devoted; Lay Clergy; Clergy.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Are there actual changes in stats, or do the divisions already exist in the standard rules?




For mortals its essentially a philosophical question rather than a mechanical one; though I do have some new rules tied to the above.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What makes a Time Lord a Time Lord?




...and spoil all the fun, not likely.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Oct 26, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Not sure just how I will be refering to the Modrons and Slaad at this point since they are not OGL.




Honestly, I'd hate to see the modrons in the IH.   I do prefer the 3.5 formians -- and since they're open, you could use them.

For slaadi, I really don't know.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...and spoil all the fun, not likely.




No, seriously -- game mechanics aside, what makes Time Lords different from other beings, Eternals or otherwise?  It is simple to say that Eternals are to Sidereals as Sidereals are to Immortals (as Immortals are to Mortals).  It's not too tough to design templates to make each more powerful than the previous level.  Making them 'feel' different, though... that takes a real master.

http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly16.html


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 26, 2003)

Hi CR Greathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Honestly, I'd hate to see the modrons in the IH.




Well I have no plans to add any 'new' Modrons; since the totality of the race is already completely described.

However I may have some notes on their hierarchy.

The biggest complication with 3rd Edition (and 2nd) is the inclusion of the Intermediate God class. That has played havoc with various planar hierarchies. Even though I actually support the idea of distancing Pantheon heads with other 'great' gods; WotC yet again blur the lines. Although thats not the real problem; which is the stretching of various planar hierarchies.

eg. If we make, say, Demogorgon (a Demon Monarch) an Intermediate power; that means Princes become Lesser powers; Lords become Demipowers. What then exists between Balors (Hero-deities) and Lords in the Quasi-deity 'rung'.

eg. Whereas if we keep Demogorgon at Lesser Power you face other incongruities such as why is Lolth an Intermediate power (or indeed is she?)? Why hasn't a greater power seized control of the Abyss (or indeed could the demon rulers join forces and be powerful enough to expel such a threat?)?



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I do prefer the 3.5 formians -- and since they're open, you could use them.




I have never been a fan of the Formians to be honest, but I suppose I could weave some magic on them. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> For slaadi, I really don't know.




I may just refer to them as the 'Daals' if I include my Silver Slaad monster. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> No, seriously -- game mechanics aside, what makes Time Lords different from other beings, Eternals or otherwise?




Well of course thats the challenge for me. 

I think such things are better explained within the content of the IH.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> It is simple to say that Eternals are to Sidereals as Sidereals are to Immortals (as Immortals are to Mortals).
> 
> It's not too tough to design templates to make each more powerful than the previous level.




Indeed.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Making them 'feel' different, though... that takes a real master.




...well I guess time will tell. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly16.html




Not sure of the relationship you are trying to convey between this article of Montes (which I have of course read before) and the nature of the Time Lords?


----------



## CRGreathouse (Oct 26, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have never been a fan of the Formians to be honest, but I suppose I could weave some magic on them.




I thank you for considering it.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well of course thats the challenge for me.
> 
> I think such things are better explained within the content of the IH.




Well, you can't blame me for trying! 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Not sure of the relationship you are trying to convey between this article of Montes (which I have of course read before) and the nature of the Time Lords?




It says what I said just above it -- play should feel different at different levels, instead of just increasing existing numbers.  I was using it to pry at the Time Lords.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 26, 2003)

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I thank you for considering it.




The problem with the Formians is the almighty gap between hero-deity (Formian Queens) to the Scion Queen Mother (Intermediate Power). Not to mention should she actually be a Greater Power (if we make Demogorgon an Intermediate Power).

I want to give people the options of having the most powerful outsider races as surrogate planar pantheons in their own right.

So you could have Norse Pantheon vs. Formians; Orc Pantheon vs. Guardinals; Babylonian Pantheon vs. Demons.

Then beyond the Planar Pantheons you have the Dimensional Hierarchies which we can go into another time. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Well, you can't blame me for trying!




I thought the "No seriously" you opened with was a nice touch. Kudos for the attempt. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> It says what I said just above it -- play should feel different at different levels, instead of just increasing existing numbers.  I was using it to pry at the Time Lords.




Insidious, thats what it is. 

Of course I could just tell you all about the Time Lords...

...but then I'd have to kill you.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Oct 26, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The problem with the Formians is the almighty gap between hero-deity (Formian Queens) to the Scion Queen Mother (Intermediate Power). Not to mention should she actually be a Greater Power (if we make Demogorgon an Intermediate Power).




So what are you saying, we need someone with the time to come up with a bunch of high-level monsters to fill the gap?




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I want to give people the options of having the most powerful outsider races as surrogate planar pantheons in their own right.
> 
> So you could have Norse Pantheon vs. Formians; Orc Pantheon vs. Guardinals; Babylonian Pantheon vs. Demons.




In a mosly-unrelated question about your Immortal Indices:

I noticed that the D&Dg version of the Pharaonic Pantheon was extremely good-biased -- only 3 out of 14 are evil, and 2 of those are demigods.  (By contrast, 8 out of 23 in the D&D pantheon were evil, none of which were demigods.)  Do you have a feel for the alignment bias of any of the pantheons you've worked on?  Care to share?  (I know you've done a lot of work with the Celtic pantheon, for example.  What alignment, if any, seems to dominate?)



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I thought the "No seriously" you opened with was a nice touch. Kudos for the attempt.




Hey, I thought so too.  I can always try!


----------



## Alzrius (Oct 26, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I have no plans to add any 'new' Modrons; since the totality of the race is already completely described.
> 
> However I may have some notes on their hierarchy.




See, that's the sort of thing that I'd really love to see in the IH. It's great to see something that doesn't feel the need to rearrange what I feel is a pretty good structure already (that is, the modron castes); rather, it just presents a new way of interpreting the differences between them.



> _The biggest complication with 3rd Edition (and 2nd) is the inclusion of the Intermediate God class. That has played havoc with various planar hierarchies. Even though I actually support the idea of distancing Pantheon heads with other 'great' gods; WotC yet again blur the lines._




I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that WotC blurred the lines because the definition of Greater Gods wasn't just that they were the pantheon heads? Otherwise, it seems that adding the Intermediate God level, and then, later, adding in divine rank, could only make the system better.



> _Although thats not the real problem; which is the stretching of various planar hierarchies.
> 
> eg. If we make, say, Demogorgon (a Demon Monarch) an Intermediate power; that means Princes become Lesser powers; Lords become Demipowers. What then exists between Balors (Hero-deities) and Lords in the Quasi-deity 'rung'._




My take on this is that if you don't like the "stretching" of the planar hierarchies, just don't do it. WotC themselves have seriously backed up on this one. Although the decision seemed to be as much due to them not wanting you to have to buy D&Dg or the ELH as anything else, they scaled back the various Demon and Devil Lords to the point where they aren't really gods in any sense. (Of course, then they tried to have their cake and eat it too by saying how they could still have worshippers who have divine spells.)

That said, I don't really feel that you need to occupy every rung of the ladder. The system of which planar beings hold what rank of divinity doesn't have to make obvious sense in the idea of being a set hierarchy. Demogorgon can be a lesser god (which is what 2E had him pegged as, despite having added that Intermediate God level), but that doesn't mean that all other Lords must then be demipowers by comparrison. Orcus and Graz'zt would have to have similar power, but even that is flexible. You wouldn't have to make balors Hero-deities (something I feel may be a bad idea...otherwise it sets a precedent that every tough outsider has some godliness...make divinity too ubiquitous and it quickly loses its splendor to players when they face something thats partially divine).



> _eg. Whereas if we keep Demogorgon at Lesser Power you face other incongruities such as why is Lolth an Intermediate power (or indeed is she?)? Why hasn't a greater power seized control of the Abyss (or indeed could the demon rulers join forces and be powerful enough to expel such a threat?)?
> _




See, I don't think these questions even need to be asked. If Demogorgon is a Lesser Power, and Lolth is an Intermediate Power...so what? Lolth's being an Intermediate God is in no way indicative that all other Demon Monarchs must be of that same power level to be considered a Demon Monarch. Some of them are just more powerful than others. It's as simple as that.

On the question of why then, if some are so much more powerful than others, why don't those ones rule everything (say, the entire Abyss), that too is a question that seems to answer itself. There are more things than just raw combat power to consider. Politics might be one of them. What good is it to kill someone if that brings a rain of their allies down on your head? What if killing them leaves you so expended on personal might that you know that others, sensing your weakness, would attack you like a wolf pack? What if those other beings are just so insignificant as to be beneath your notice? Even Baphomet lets Pale Night, an ancient Abyssal Lord (Graz'zt's and several others' mother) live in his realm.

I just think you're analyzing the situation a bit more than is necessary. IMHO, it is enough to just say, "this is how it is" and let the situation justify itself. We don't need to have a stepping-order of increasingly powerful beings with every level represented for every hierarchy; Demogorgon doesn't need to be an Intermediate Power just because Lolth is, and there don't need to be other kinds of Formians between Formian Queens and the Scion Queen Mother.



> _I want to give people the options of having the most powerful outsider races as surrogate planar pantheons in their own right._




Now that's an interesting option! I'm glad it's just being billed as an option though, since, as I said before, it seems to make divine beings slightly too prolific. I know in my campaign, I'd want my players to be shocked and amazed to even meet and fight a Hero-Deity. But (assuming I run a planar campaign to some degree) that's somewhat harder to drive home when the upper echelons of most planar races begin to touch divinity.

On the subject of Slaad and Modrons, it's a real pity you can't touch upon them in your book since their closed content. On that note, have you just tried asking WotC for permission to use them? It probably won't work, but its worth a shot at least.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 27, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> So what are you saying, we need someone with the time to come up with a bunch of high-level monsters to fill the gap?




I may end up mentioning a solution in the IH, but not actually fleshing it out (possibly saving it for another occasion).



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> In a mosly-unrelated question about your Immortal Indices:
> 
> I noticed that the D&Dg version of the Pharaonic Pantheon was extremely good-biased -- only 3 out of 14 are evil, and 2 of those are demigods.  (By contrast, 8 out of 23 in the D&D pantheon were evil, none of which were demigods.)  Do you have a feel for the alignment bias of any of the pantheons you've worked on?  Care to share?




I generally let racial pantheons have a slight alignment bias towards their leader.

It also depends on whether the race has a notable alignment 'bent'.

Humans tend to have a generally neutral alignment, so Humanocentric Pantheons can have gods of any alignment. Whereas elves have a generally Chaotic Good alignment so there won't be any lawful or evil elven deities within the pantheon 'proper'. Such deities may well exist but they will be renegades and miscreants.

I have also tinkered with some of the big (ten) racial pantheon alignments; and each fully opposes its racial nemesis.

Likewise I have various Human Pantheons pitted against each other, to give DMs some ideas.

I also have the Planar Pantheons better fleshed out, as well as the aforementioned Dimensional Hierarchies (Pantheons).

Finally I have some ideas for more esoteric pantheon ideas. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> (I know you've done a lot of work with the Celtic pantheon, for example.  What alignment, if any, seems to dominate?)




Chaotic Neutral. Though they are human so they would probably cover all alignments; though their 'interpretation' of lawful good would be more chaotic than general interpretations.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Hey, I thought so too.  I can always try!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 27, 2003)

Hi Alzrius mate! 

I had to go out earlier otherwise I would have had the reply done sooner.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> See, that's the sort of thing that I'd really love to see in the IH. It's great to see something that doesn't feel the need to rearrange what I feel is a pretty good structure already (that is, the modron castes); rather, it just presents a new way of interpreting the differences between them.




Glad you approve. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that WotC blurred the lines because the definition of Greater Gods wasn't just that they were the pantheon heads?




In a way, yes. Though I don't see all Greater Deities needing a Pantheon beneath them (obviously); I think the nominal head of a Pantheon should be clearly above and beyond the others (except in cases where there is more than one nominal ruler).

So I wouldn't have Thor and Odin as both Greater Deities.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Otherwise, it seems that adding the Intermediate God level, and then, later, adding in divine rank, could only make the system better.




Indeed, Intermediate God status is a useful tool. Though individual Divine Ranks are more a waste of time than anything else.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> My take on this is that if you don't like the "stretching" of the planar hierarchies, just don't do it.




Unfortunately I prefer things to make sense (to me at least), and I don't like leaving loose ends. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> WotC themselves have seriously backed up on this one. Although the decision seemed to be as much due to them not wanting you to have to buy D&Dg or the ELH as anything else, they scaled back the various Demon and Devil Lords to the point where they aren't really gods in any sense. (Of course, then they tried to have their cake and eat it too by saying how they could still have worshippers who have divine spells.)




WotC scaled back their Demon and Devil Lords so that people could interact with them on a non-epic (or divine) basis. While theres nothing wrong with that in itself, my own iterations pay homage to such beings rightful (and original) status.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That said, I don't really feel that you need to occupy every rung of the ladder.




That would be incongruous. You can't have gaping holes in demonic evolution (for instance).

That said, I only really want to present workable guidelines, rather than a concrete cosmos - because most DMs will have their own ideas about this anyway.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The system of which planar beings hold what rank of divinity doesn't have to make obvious sense in the idea of being a set hierarchy.




I agree (though all spirits do have at worst a loose hierarchy of power, even the Slaad*), but you can't have gaping holes in such a hierarchy without feasible reasoning.

Of course Slaadi are not chaos incarnate, but thats a discussion for another time.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Demogorgon can be a lesser god (which is what 2E had him pegged as, despite having added that Intermediate God level),




It was never fully explained why Demogorgon was a Lesser Deity; Lolth was an Intermediate Deity and Graz'zt was 'just a powerful demon' back in 2nd Ed.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> but that doesn't mean that all other Lords must then be demipowers by comparrison.




I think that Monarch/Prince/Lord hierarchy is fairly well defined. I may have been among the first to parallel it to 'actual' divine power, but its a useful and worthwhile comparison. Not something I would enforce vehemently but rather as a general rule of thumb.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Orcus and Graz'zt would have to have similar power, but even that is flexible.




Within certain parameters yes. But I don't think divine status is one of those flexible parameters, at least not without due reason or some blurring of the edges.

Clearly Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt (among others) are on the same 'strata' with regards power. Whether this is power from glory (worshippers) or power gained through battle all amounts to the same thing.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> You wouldn't have to make balors Hero-deities (something I feel may be a bad idea...




I haven't *made* Balors 'Hero-deities' _per se_ but rather the power they hold effectively puts them on the same strata as Hero-deities.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> otherwise it sets a precedent that every tough outsider has some godliness...




So they do. Thats what they are made from.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> make divinity too ubiquitous and it quickly loses its splendor to players when they face something thats partially divine).




Not necessarily, its okay to keep mortals 'in the dark' about such things, but once your PCs become hero-deities they will come to find they are yet again small fish in a large pond...how large the pond depends on the DM.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> See, I don't think these questions even need to be asked. If Demogorgon is a Lesser Power, and Lolth is an Intermediate Power...so what? Lolth's being an Intermediate God is in no way indicative that all other Demon Monarchs must be of that same power level to be considered a Demon Monarch. Some of them are just more powerful than others. It's as simple as that.




I agree up to a point, though as a general rule of thumb position and power should go hand in hand (in the Outer Planes at least).



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> On the question of why then, if some are so much more powerful than others, why don't those ones rule everything (say, the entire Abyss), that too is a question that seems to answer itself. There are more things than just raw combat power to consider. Politics might be one of them. What good is it to kill someone if that brings a rain of their allies down on your head? What if killing them leaves you so expended on personal might that you know that others, sensing your weakness, would attack you like a wolf pack? What if those other beings are just so insignificant as to be beneath your notice? Even Baphomet lets Pale Night, an ancient Abyssal Lord (Graz'zt's and several others' mother) live in his realm.




In Abyssal politics power is everything, the strong seek to dominate the weak. As you yourself pose, once one has an advantage abyssal politics will shift to counter such. Were Lolth to move against Orcus; Zuggtmoy may aid him. While Demogorgon may aid Lolth; Graz'zt must step in to check Lolth/Demogorgons advantage etc. etc. But centuries of constant war have forged the current hierarchy and stalemate to the position its in today. Which is why the upper echelons are 'roughly' balanced. While monarch may still war against monarch, none have a clear advantage.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I just think you're analyzing the situation a bit more than is necessary.




Probably, that sounds like me. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> IMHO, it is enough to just say, "this is how it is" and let the situation justify itself. We don't need to have a stepping-order of increasingly powerful beings with every level represented for every hierarchy;




Any stepping order would simply represent a convenient description.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Demogorgon doesn't need to be an Intermediate Power just because Lolth is,




Likewise, just because Lolth is an Intermediate Power doesn't mean that Demogorgon cannot be.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> and there don't need to be other kinds of Formians between Formian Queens and the Scion Queen Mother.




I can't help but think such a weakness would be clearly perceived and exploited by an enemy.

I mean think about it. Does an army generally consist of a single 20th-level General leading hundreds or thousands of 1st-levelers!? Of course not, within the ranks are soldiers of variable experience the more powerful acting as Colonels; Captains; Lieutenants etc.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Now that's an interesting option! I'm glad it's just being billed as an option though, since, as I said before, it seems to make divine beings slightly too prolific. I know in my campaign, I'd want my players to be shocked and amazed to even meet and fight a Hero-Deity. But (assuming I run a planar campaign to some degree) that's somewhat harder to drive home when the upper echelons of most planar races begin to touch divinity.




This is the difference between an open and closed cosmology; or even the difference between a mundane and divine campaign.

Its one thing for the party to be in awe of a hero-deity when they have barely encroached upon epic levels, but when your PCs are already demigods (or better), obviously they won't be so impressed.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> On the subject of Slaad and Modrons, it's a real pity you can't touch upon them in your book since their closed content. On that note, have you just tried asking WotC for permission to use them? It probably won't work, but its worth a shot at least.




I'll give it some thought. Thanks for the feedback mate.


----------



## historian (Oct 27, 2003)

Howdy Krust!

I don't want to stray too far off topic (although I think this is somewhat related) but I have a couple more questions re: the IH.  I should preface these by saying that I suspect you won;t be able to answer either of these in whole, and that I don't want to spoil any surprises, but I am curious about the following:

1.  Will the IH offer any guidance for DMs and/or players roleplaying some of these uber-powerful things that you've come up with.  Now it seems that for some of the "lower end" classics (Odin, Hercules, Asmodeus) that there is a sufficient base of knowledge showing that many of these characters acted more less like humans (even children at times), so that a DM or player could readily plug them into a campaign and approximate their behavior with a fair degree of accuracy.  However, for some of the REALLY big guys who have nothing close to a human frame of reference and may be orders of magnitude smarter and wiser than any human, it seems like DMs and players could use a helping hand;

2.  On a related topic, I was wondering to what extent your higher end beings could be classified (although not necessarily subject to) an alignment.  My thinking here is that some of the really big guys would transcend concepts like lawfulness or neutrality.  


Thanks in advance, I know that these cut pretty close, but I would be remiss if I didn't pry a bit.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Oct 27, 2003)

Historian brought up some points I was wondering about the other day.  Then I forgot....but yeah.  Three more questions for you Oh Krustaceous one:

1) Did you ever make a decision in reference to the inclusion or lack thereof of Huper-Ouranoi?  And if the answer's no would you care to divulge the information you have on them?
2) The fact that you have many levels of higher and higher divinities reminds me a bit of my limited knowledge of Gnosticism, was that at all an inspiration to that idea or any other part of your work?  Did any other interesting religious ideas (Qabbala, etc.) influence the work?  
3) Do our constant questions ever get annoying or frustrating?  I mean seriously how can you deal with all the crap we ask you?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 28, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I don't want to stray too far off topic (although I think this is somewhat related) but I have a couple more questions re: the IH.  I should preface these by saying that I suspect you won't be able to answer either of these in whole, and that I don't want to spoil any surprises, but I am curious about the following:




Fire away.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 1.  Will the IH offer any guidance for DMs and/or players roleplaying some of these uber-powerful things that you've come up with.  Now it seems that for some of the "lower end" classics (Odin, Hercules, Asmodeus) that there is a sufficient base of knowledge showing that many of these characters acted more less like humans (even children at times), so that a DM or player could readily plug them into a campaign and approximate their behavior with a fair degree of accuracy.  However, for some of the REALLY big guys who have nothing close to a human frame of reference and may be orders of magnitude smarter and wiser than any human, it seems like DMs and players could use a helping hand;




Well, of course I'll try and describe such beings to the best of my ability. As well as providing as much advice on different campaign models as I can.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 2.  On a related topic, I was wondering to what extent your higher end beings could be classified (although not necessarily subject to) an alignment.  My thinking here is that some of the really big guys would transcend concepts like lawfulness or neutrality.




Absolutely, I even have powers that let you transcend alignment. Certainly Time Lords and such like are unrateable with regards alignment.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks in advance, I know that these cut pretty close, but I would be remiss if I didn't pry a bit.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 28, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Historian brought up some points I was wondering about the other day.  Then I forgot....but yeah.




LOL! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Three more questions for you Oh Krustaceous one:




Okay.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> 1) Did you ever make a decision in reference to the inclusion or lack thereof of Huper-Ouranoi?  And if the answer's no would you care to divulge the information you have on them?




The nature of the Huper-Ouranioi has changed somewhat. That is now the name of the Angelic Over-Choir.

But don't worry, the previous incarnation of the Huper-Ouranioi is still detailed...only its now under a different name. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> 2) The fact that you have many levels of higher and higher divinities reminds me a bit of my limited knowledge of Gnosticism, was that at all an inspiration to that idea or any other part of your work?  Did any other interesting religious ideas (Qabbala, etc.) influence the work?




Yes.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> 3) Do our constant questions ever get annoying or frustrating?  I mean seriously how can you deal with all the crap we ask you?




I am happy to reply to people who are interested in what I am working on. 

I do sometimes look at the clock and think "surely I havn't just spent the last five hours replying to messages and emails!?" But usually I don't mind the distraction as the feedback is often useful.


----------



## historian (Oct 28, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I'm sure you'll do a great job describing the beings w/tips on how to play them   , you've had a great deal more experience thinking about and playing this stuff than most of us and I'm sure you'll clearly impart that wisdom on the neophyte.



SWEET on the transcending alignment thing, I can't wait to see what this means in terms of game mechanics.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 28, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm sure you'll do a great job describing the beings w/tips on how to play them   ,




Well I'll certainly try my best.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> you've had a great deal more experience thinking about and playing this stuff than most of us and I'm sure you'll clearly impart that wisdom on the neophyte.




I appreciate the confidence mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> SWEET on the transcending alignment thing, I can't wait to see what this means in terms of game mechanics.




No sense going into that now.


----------



## Alzrius (Oct 30, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I had to go out earlier otherwise I would have had the reply done sooner.




No worries. I kind of forgot I posted in this topic myself for a few days there.



> _In a way, yes. Though I don't see all Greater Deities needing a Pantheon beneath them (obviously); I think the nominal head of a Pantheon should be clearly above and beyond the others (except in cases where there is more than one nominal ruler)._




Out of curiosity, how far above them would you rank them (in terms of WotC's rankings)? Just one divine rank lower, or what? The reason I ask is that it doesn't seem like a pantheon head could be clearly "above and beyond" the others without seriously lowering the rest of the pantheon's might. That is, even if the pantheon head were a Greater deity, a group of Intermediate deities working together could still slay said Greater deity.



> _Indeed, Intermediate God status is a useful tool. Though individual Divine Ranks are more a waste of time than anything else._




Given your preference for a wider range of distinct levels, I can see how this "rank within level" system would annoy you, but still, given WotC, this is a step in the right direction, as it does allow, for example, a pantheon head to have more power (if only nominally) than other gods, even ones of the same rank.



> _WotC scaled back their Demon and Devil Lords so that people could interact with them on a non-epic (or divine) basis. While theres nothing wrong with that in itself, my own iterations pay homage to such beings rightful (and original) status._




This statement confuses me...in 1E D&D (the original for these beings) these Lords were as they are now...non-divine beings that were regarded as very powerful and unique, but not epic (in the "epic level" sense of the word). Hence why Orcus, Asmodeus, etc., were in the MM alongside the goblin and kobold and others.

Don't get me wrong, my favorite incarnation of these same beings is their 2E incarnations (the ones I was first familiar with), but their presentation in the BoVD seems to be a large look back at their origins.



> _That would be incongruous. You can't have gaping holes in demonic evolution (for instance)._




This I disagree with, at least at the higher levels of power. If you have a demonic Greater deity, for example, you needn't then by necessity have one that is an Intermediate deity somewhere. It is incongruous at the lower echelons of power, since the bottom rungs are always what support the rest, but the higher you go, they get rarer and rarer, until its a crap shoot that any exist as X level...which doesn't mean there won't be any at the level above that.



> _That said, I only really want to present workable guidelines, rather than a concrete cosmos - because most DMs will have their own ideas about this anyway._




Point taken. I know I would certainly find a somewhat-generic toolkit more useful than if you went through the entire D&D cosmology and repainted it with your own brush-strokes.



> _I agree (though all spirits do have at worst a loose hierarchy of power, even the Slaad*), but you can't have gaping holes in such a hierarchy without feasible reasoning._




Agreed, I just think that reasoning need not be obvious. As I said, the hierarchy should have every slot filled at the lower levels, but higher up is another story...as an example...if only one Slaad Lord (say, Ygorl) ascended to become a demigod...then rose to become a Lesser god...we now have a prime example of what I meant. There is a Slaad Lesser deity around, but no demigod...and there need not be one. Below that is still Ssendam, Renbuu, Chorst, and Bazim-Gorag at their quasi-divine power level.



> _Of course Slaadi are not chaos incarnate, but thats a discussion for another time._




I won't comment on that for now...but you are sooo tempting me! 



> _It was never fully explained why Demogorgon was a Lesser Deity; Lolth was an Intermediate Deity and Graz'zt was 'just a powerful demon' back in 2nd Ed._




I remember, and I still feel that that was probably the best depiction of those beings we've ever seen.



> _Within certain parameters yes. But I don't think divine status is one of those flexible parameters, at least not without due reason or some blurring of the edges.
> 
> Clearly Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt (among others) are on the same 'strata' with regards power. Whether this is power from glory (worshippers) or power gained through battle all amounts to the same thing._




Even though we know, for example, that Graz'zt does not want to become a god, whereas Orcus and Demogorgon certainly do want that?

That may seem, as an example, to leave Graz'zt open to being squished like some mundane flea, but given that there are plenty of other beings who are less powerful than their enemies but manage to not only survive, but vex said enemies, that would seem to indicate that that system works somehow.



> _So they do. Thats what they are made from._




This I disagree with. To my way of thinking, Outsiders are a blend of physical material and the substance of their plane. No divinity involved. Divine power is something else altogether that's added to the mix. Otherwise, even the lowliest of manes, for example, would have some divinity in them, which doesn't seem right.



> _Not necessarily, its okay to keep mortals 'in the dark' about such things, but once your PCs become hero-deities they will come to find they are yet again small fish in a large pond...how large the pond depends on the DM._




Point taken. I was using the previous example to refer to a group of level 1-20 PCs. The scale would have to be upped when PCs reach divinity themselves. What I was attempting impart was that, for my group, I'd want them to have a high sense of awe that they were about to fight a Hero-god even if the PCs were all at 20th level.



> _I agree up to a point, though as a general rule of thumb position and power should go hand in hand (in the Outer Planes at least)._




And, as you said, I agree to a point. I'm not sure though what position you feel that Lolth and Demogorgon both had that means that their power should be similarly equated.

The only one I can think of is their mutual positions as Tanar'ri/Demon Lords. However, that seems inherently fallacious because, unlike, say, the Lords of the Nine, Demon Lord carries far less of a strict rank of power...a Demon Lord can be any Demon NPC with unique stats who has a demesne in the Abyss...beyond that, it doesn't matter if their relatively weak or a Greater Deity...not all Demon Lords are equal. That's how I viewed it at least.



> _In Abyssal politics power is everything, the strong seek to dominate the weak. As you yourself pose, once one has an advantage abyssal politics will shift to counter such. Were Lolth to move against Orcus; Zuggtmoy may aid him. While Demogorgon may aid Lolth; Graz'zt must step in to check Lolth/Demogorgons advantage etc. etc. But centuries of constant war have forged the current hierarchy and stalemate to the position its in today. Which is why the upper echelons are 'roughly' balanced. While monarch may still war against monarch, none have a clear advantage._




But that assumes that today's position is at such a stalement (assuming such a stalemate ever even truly occurs in the chaotic Abyss). It could still be very much in the period of "constant" war that is eliminating the weak to make room for the strong. The death of Orcus at the hands of Kiaransalee, among other incidents, would seem to be a nod towards that. And as I mentioned, the Abyss doesn't seem like it'd ever reach such a stalemate.



> _Likewise, just because Lolth is an Intermediate Power doesn't mean that Demogorgon cannot be._




True, but I was looking for more of a reason why he _should_ be, since "just because Lolth is" doesn't seem like enough of a reason.



> _I can't help but think such a weakness would be clearly perceived and exploited by an enemy.
> 
> I mean think about it. Does an army generally consist of a single 20th-level General leading hundreds or thousands of 1st-levelers!? Of course not, within the ranks are soldiers of variable experience the more powerful acting as Colonels; Captains; Lieutenants etc._




A good analogy, but that would seem to indicate that every race with only a single god should then have a series of beings between the leaders of that race and their deity. Do the illithids then, for example, need some "fillers" between the ulitharids (noble illithids) and Ilsensine himself?



> _I'll give it some thought. Thanks for the feedback mate. _




Anytime. Btw, any word on when, exactly, we'll see the Open-Sourcing of the necessary materials from the ELH and D&Dg so that the IH can finally be published? I remember you said you'd been tipped off that those books would be added to the SRD, allowing you to then publish the IH, sometime back around April. How is that coming, since the ELH barely got any material added, and none has been included from D&Dg?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 30, 2003)

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> No worries. I kind of forgot I posted in this topic myself for a few days there.




Its easily done.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, how far above them would you rank them (in terms of WotC's rankings)? Just one divine rank lower, or what?




I would probably use one divine status as a general rule of thumb, you don't want to get too carried away.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The reason I ask is that it doesn't seem like a pantheon head could be clearly "above and beyond" the others without seriously lowering the rest of the pantheon's might.




But all pantheons would be treated thusly.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That is, even if the pantheon head were a Greater deity, a group of Intermediate deities working together could still slay said Greater deity.




But no one deity in the Pantheon could challenge them.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Given your preference for a wider range of distinct levels, I can see how this "rank within level" system would annoy you, but still, given WotC, this is a step in the right direction, as it does allow, for example, a pantheon head to have more power (if only nominally) than other gods, even ones of the same rank.




Even from a mechanical point of view its a total distraction to fracture divinity into yet smaller component parts. At epic/immortal levels you want things to be as simple as possible.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> This statement confuses me...in 1E D&D (the original for these beings) these Lords were as they are now...non-divine beings that were regarded as very powerful and unique, but not epic (in the "epic level" sense of the word).




1st Ed. Deities & Demigods (Legends & Lore print) outlined that all such unique creatures were equivalent to Lesser Gods; here it is word for word:



			
				1st Ed. Legends & Lore pg. 90 said:
			
		

> *NOTE:*The following beings from the *MONSTER MANUAL* and the *FIEND FOLIO* should be treated as Lesser Gods, though they very rarely have human worshippers:
> 
> *MONSTER MANUAL*
> 
> ...




Note that this was prior to (1st Ed.) Monster Manual 2, but obviously sets the guidelines for that books unique creatures too.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hence why Orcus, Asmodeus, etc., were in the MM alongside the goblin and kobold and others.




Even the divine can be monstrous.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong, my favorite incarnation of these same beings is their 2E incarnations (the ones I was first familiar with),




Trust me when I say that 2nd Ed. was their darkest hour. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> but their presentation in the BoVD seems to be a large look back at their origins.




I remember reading some argument of Monte's that he said this was how such beings were initially detailed in 1st Ed. and that the BoVD was simply bringing them back to their roots; but this was of course not quite the full story (as I have shown). It doesn't feel right that the likes of Bahamut and Tiamat are Lesser Deities; and Lolth is an Intermediate deity when you have their former peers (and betters in some cases) languishing as mere quasi-gods.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> This I disagree with, at least at the higher levels of power. If you have a demonic Greater deity, for example, you needn't then by necessity have one that is an Intermediate deity somewhere. It is incongruous at the lower echelons of power, since the bottom rungs are always what support the rest, but the higher you go, they get rarer and rarer, until its a crap shoot that any exist as X level...which doesn't mean there won't be any at the level above that.




Obviously thats the case at the very top but the hierarchy of the Abyss (to use one example) is well established at least until you reach the Demon Monarchs.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Point taken. I know I would certainly find a somewhat-generic toolkit more useful than if you went through the entire D&D cosmology and repainted it with your own brush-strokes.




Indeed.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Agreed, I just think that reasoning need not be obvious.




As long as its obvious to me. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> As I said, the hierarchy should have every slot filled at the lower levels, but higher up is another story...as an example...if only one Slaad Lord (say, Ygorl) ascended to become a demigod...then rose to become a Lesser god...we now have a prime example of what I meant. There is a Slaad Lesser deity around, but no demigod...and there need not be one. Below that is still Ssendam, Renbuu, Chorst, and Bazim-Gorag at their quasi-divine power level.




Another thing to consider is planar power. If the Slaad only have one Lesser God; three Demigods and a Quasi-deity its not going to be very long before they are invaded and conquered (probably by some conspiring Abyssal Rulers in one of their more expansionistic moments).



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I won't comment on that for now...but you are sooo tempting me!








			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I remember, and I still feel that that was probably the best depiction of those beings we've ever seen.




The best ever depictions of the lower planes are from Gary Gygax' Gord the Rogue series of novels.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Even though we know, for example, that Graz'zt does not want to become a god, whereas Orcus and Demogorgon certainly do want that?




Thats the sort of jive that makes 2nd Ed. all the more dangerous to young minds. Obviously Graz'zt wants as much power as possible; the very idea that he would not want to become a god (or godlike) is laughable.

That said they could have meant he is less inclined to facilitate worship. The Immortals Handbook distinguishes between power gained through worship and personal power/divinity (derived 'quickening' style). But they all add up to the same thing. 

'Immortals' (such as demons) may have a higher percentage of personal power whilst 'Deities' (such as the Norse Pantheon) would likely have a higher percentage from worship. But there is no real black and white here. So Graz'zt may well have some worshippers whilst Thor would have likely some personal power derived from victories over the millenia. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That may seem, as an example, to leave Graz'zt open to being squished like some mundane flea,




Yes it would.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> but given that there are plenty of other beings who are less powerful than their enemies but manage to not only survive, but vex said enemies, that would seem to indicate that that system works somehow.




I think you are refering to enemies who are not 'out in the open' (as indeed Graz'zt is). The only time less powerful enemies survive is when they can hide. Graz'zt rules over a number of layers of the Abyss. He can't hide without giving up his territory.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> This I disagree with. To my way of thinking, Outsiders are a blend of physical material and the substance of their plane. No divinity involved. Divine power is something else altogether that's added to the mix. Otherwise, even the lowliest of manes, for example, would have some divinity in them, which doesn't seem right.




Perhaps divinity is too strong a term for you. Think 'spirit'.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Point taken. I was using the previous example to refer to a group of level 1-20 PCs. The scale would have to be upped when PCs reach divinity themselves.




Naturally.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> What I was attempting impart was that, for my group, I'd want them to have a high sense of awe that they were about to fight a Hero-god even if the PCs were all at 20th level.




Absolutely.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> And, as you said, I agree to a point. I'm not sure though what position you feel that Lolth and Demogorgon both had that means that their power should be similarly equated.




They are both Demon Monarchs.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The only one I can think of is their mutual positions as Tanar'ri/Demon Lords. However, that seems inherently fallacious because, unlike, say, the Lords of the Nine, Demon Lord carries far less of a strict rank of power...a Demon Lord can be any Demon NPC with unique stats who has a demesne in the Abyss...beyond that, it doesn't matter if their relatively weak or a Greater Deity...not all Demon Lords are equal. That's how I viewed it at least.




"Demon Lord: A being of power who rules part of a layer of the Abyss."
"Demon Prince: A being of power who rules at least one complete layer of the Abyss and who is served by one or more Demon Lords."
"Demon Monarch: A being of power who rules multiple layers of the Abyss and who is served by one or more Demon Princes."



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> But that assumes that today's position is at such a stalement (assuming such a stalemate ever even truly occurs in the chaotic Abyss).




Well the various powers that be are always looking for one advantage or another. There is also the possibility of outside interference (The Gord the Rogue novels give a good depiction of how something can upset the balance of the Abyss).



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> It could still be very much in the period of "constant" war that is eliminating the weak to make room for the strong. The death of Orcus at the hands of Kiaransalee, among other incidents, would seem to be a nod towards that. And as I mentioned, the Abyss doesn't seem like it'd ever reach such a stalemate.




More 2nd Ed. jive. Why did Kiaransalee assassinate Orcus in the first place? Did she not have the brains to understand that eliminating one Demon Monarch would have brought the whole race down on her stupid head. No one in the Abyss is going to tolerate such an afront to demonkind not perpetrated by one of their own.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> True, but I was looking for more of a reason why he _should_ be, since "just because Lolth is" doesn't seem like enough of a reason.




They are both Demon Monarchs.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> A good analogy, but that would seem to indicate that every race with only a single god should then have a series of beings between the leaders of that race and their deity.




Almost universally that will be the case. In any society in D&D



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Do the illithids then, for example, need some "fillers" between the ulitharids (noble illithids) and Ilsensine himself?




Unless you have a specific reason* you would have to imagine that over time certain Ulitharids will become Hero-deities; Quasi-deities or possibly even Demigods. Perhaps Ilsensine will spawn some offspring to fill such roles.

*Such as the Githyanki Queen Demigod murdering all Githyanki over 17th-level.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Anytime. Btw, any word on when, exactly, we'll see the Open-Sourcing of the necessary materials from the ELH and D&Dg so that the IH can finally be published? I remember you said you'd been tipped off that those books would be added to the SRD, allowing you to then publish the IH, sometime back around April. How is that coming, since the ELH barely got any material added, and none has been included from D&Dg?




More WotC heel dragging.

I am not concerned about the OGL anymore though. I have scaled things back any ELH material to the bare essentials and if I can get a few weeks work on the IH I'll have it finished.


----------



## Yair (Oct 30, 2003)

> I have scaled things back any ELH material to the bare essentials and if I can get a few weeks work on the IH I'll have it finished.



Hmmm... both _Fields of Blood_ and the _Immortals Handbook_ actually seeing publication...

*** goes out to see if the skies are falling ***


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Oct 30, 2003)

Wow, all this talk of Demon Monarchs and stuff is really wakening my appetite  

All this talking about Orcus wants that, Demogorgon wants this, Orcus is killed etc is from 2nd Ed., right?

Is that the same background that inspires the people at Dicefreaks?

Because I've no idea what it is all about.

2nd Ed. made me leave D&D for many many years and I wouldn't even touch 3rd ed. before I acidentially looked in a PHB to mine it for ideas for a d20 system. The rest is history.   

So I'm very pleased that the IH will not refer to 2nd ed material that I have no interest in. Very pleased.
That _is_ the case, right?

There won't be _anything_ needed besides the core books? (and maybe the ELH).

Later,


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 30, 2003)

Hi Yair mate! 

I hope you have been keeping well!? 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Hmmm... both _Fields of Blood_ and the _Immortals Handbook_ actually seeing publication...
> 
> *** goes out to see if the skies are falling ***




If so, watch out for flying pigs.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 30, 2003)

Hi Sorcica mate! 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> Wow, all this talk of Demon Monarchs and stuff is really wakening my appetite
> 
> All this talking about Orcus wants that, Demogorgon wants this, Orcus is killed etc is from 2nd Ed., right?
> 
> ...




The IH is a 2nd Ed. free zone. 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> There won't be _anything_ needed besides the core books? (and maybe the ELH).




You need the Core Rulebooks...and _maybe/maybe not_ the Epic Level Handbook (at the moment its borderline).

You *don't* need Deities & Demigods but most of the stuff in that book will be _more or less_ compatible with whats in the IH.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Oct 30, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The IH is a 2nd Ed. free zone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Extremely good news!
Especially about the 2nd being a no go.

I have the ELH so no problem. Checked out Deities and Demigods at my local library and really didn't care for what I saw, so good news that it won't be needed.

And now I'll leave you to work on the IH


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Oct 31, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Yair mate!
> If so, watch out for flying pigs.




I think he'll be more concerned with the monkey's flying out all our...ahem....anyway....


----------



## CRGreathouse (Oct 31, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> If so, watch out for flying pigs.




You know, some of us hail from places where that happens...  (Cincinnati, OH, US)



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The IH is a 2nd Ed. free zone.




Just for that, you get added to my sig.

2E nearly drove me away from the game; very little good has come of it.


----------



## Alzrius (Oct 31, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The IH is a 2nd Ed. free zone.




Aww, now I'm depressed.   2E was perhaps the best we've ever seen in fleshing out the Outer planes and the beings that live on them. A wealth of superb material was produced then, and it's a shame it won't be touched upon.

That aside, U_K, I'm sure you've probably been asked this before, so forgive my fielding the same question to you again, but how much of the D&D cosmology will be in the IH, anyway?

I ask because WotC has made all the Outer Plane name, several of their best races (slaad, illithids, githynaki and githzerai, etc), along with every proper noun from anything of theirs into closed content. That being a given, it seems like the IH won't be able to directly touch upon a significant number of the things we were discussing anyway.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 31, 2003)

Hi Sorcica mate! 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> Extremely good news!
> Especially about the 2nd being a no go.




I remember being turned off by a lot of 2nd Ed. ideas (notably the no stats for immortals jive and the nonsensical cosmology behind that).



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> I have the ELH so no problem.








			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> Checked out Deities and Demigods at my local library and really didn't care for what I saw, so good news that it won't be needed.




It was all a bit disappointing...nice art though.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 31, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> I think he'll be more concerned with the monkey's flying out all our...ahem....anyway....




Cheeky monkey!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 31, 2003)

Hi CRGreathouse matey! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> You know, some of us hail from places where that happens...  (Cincinnati, OH, US)




 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Just for that, you get added to my sig.




I'm honoured! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> 2E nearly drove me away from the game; very little good has come of it.




Indeed. The only stuff I really liked during the 2nd Ed. 'Dark Ages' was Carl Sargents Greyhawk supplements.

...though I know some people really liked Dark Sun, but I never owned (or played) that so I can't honestly comment on it.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 31, 2003)

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Aww, now I'm depressed.




I could never be depressed after looking at your little kitten avatar. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> 2E was perhaps the best we've ever seen in fleshing out the Outer planes and the beings that live on them.




It introduced some interesting ideas: Sigil; the Factions and indeed fleshed out some interesting locales. But for me they made the planes 'cuddly' (no doubt to facilitate low-level play) and utterly incongruous given their horrendous rules for deities back then.

I can see why you (or others new to 2nd Ed.) would like it though.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> A wealth of superb material was produced then,




It took them about five or six boxed sets to cover the same ground as the 1st Ed. Manual of the Planes (which only had 128 pages)!

The graphics for Planescape were very pretty, though at that price they deserved to be.

In many ways I applaud Monte Cooks (and the others involved) vision, even if I don't agree with it.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> and it's a shame it won't be touched upon.




I don't see as how I could have used such material anyway - its undoubtedly non-OGL.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That aside, U_K, I'm sure you've probably been asked this before, so forgive my fielding the same question to you again, but how much of the D&D cosmology will be in the IH, anyway?




Indirectly the Great wheel. But other than the most ephemeral hints (about all I could get away with), not much.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I ask because WotC has made all the Outer Plane name, several of their best races (slaad, illithids, githynaki and githzerai, etc), along with every proper noun from anything of theirs into closed content. That being a given, it seems like the IH won't be able to directly touch upon a significant number of the things we were discussing anyway.




They can't copyright the old planar names: Asgard; Olympus; Hell; Abyss; Hades (etc.); since they all derive from mythology.

Admittedly not having the Slaad name is a bit of an annoyance though.   


Okay, if anyone is reading this from the v4 thread I will reply to those posts later (I have to be somewhere else very shortly).


----------



## CRGreathouse (Oct 31, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'm honoured!




Well, if you're lucky, it will get someone's attention.  It's like free advertising (but not!). 

I do have a serious question, though.  If a person (say, me) wanted to implement divine ranks and could not be convinced to drop them, does the IH support the finer gradation of power (i.e., many 1 DR 'templates' that add up to each rank)?


----------



## Paragon (Oct 31, 2003)

Whipping dead horse here 

now that V4 is out how long till IH?

hehehe


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 1, 2003)

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Well, if you're lucky, it will get someone's attention.  It's like free advertising (but not!).




Seemingly not for long! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I do have a serious question, though.  If a person (say, me) wanted to implement divine ranks and could not be convinced to drop them, does the IH support the finer gradation of power (i.e., many 1 DR 'templates' that add up to each rank)?




There is a gradient in how the IH Divinity Templates could be broken down further, but that gradient isn't exactly the same as with Deities & Demigods.

So you could do it, but it won't be exactly as it is in WotCs book.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 1, 2003)

Hi Paragon mate! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> Whipping dead horse here
> 
> now that V4 is out how long till IH?
> 
> hehehe




Well indeed v4 is out and that doesn't seem to have satisfied people, which facilitated me having to do a version with Ability Scores included exactly.

The Immortals Handbook only needs a few weeks work to be ready - hopefully I can get the revised v4 done in a day or so and then finish off the real task at hand.


----------



## Paragon (Nov 1, 2003)

sounds great.  this book sounds like it is going to be just the thing we are looking for at this juncture in our campaign. we have just crossed over into the epic realm and are looking to do some planar/divine heavy stuff.

really looking forward to it UK !


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 2, 2003)

Hi Paragon mate! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> sounds great.  this book sounds like it is going to be just the thing we are looking for at this juncture in our campaign. we have just crossed over into the epic realm and are looking to do some planar/divine heavy stuff.




I hope it will help and give you more than a few ideas. 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> really looking forward to it UK !




I appreciate the support mate! 

Sorry for the delays.


----------



## historian (Nov 2, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Paragon mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I am looking very forward to the IH as well.  

BTW Krust, how did you ever settle on 80 quindecillion as a distinct CR level?  I have a pet theory, but I'll keep it to myself unless you can discuss here.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 2, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I am looking very forward to the IH as well.




Thanks for the support mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW Krust, how did you ever settle on 80 quindecillion as a distinct CR level?  I have a pet theory, but I'll keep it to myself unless you can discuss here.




Well there are certain consistencies within the Divinity Templates which facilitated my being able to predict that measure of power. 

I don't expect it to be used at that measure of power though.

In the endless philosophising of these related matters (usually with myself) I have been pondering on whether or not to fully eliminate the Cosmic Hierarchy altogether, or rather have them subsume the Time Lord 'classification' of beings.

So after Greater God you would actually have no change for quite a considerable span of power before you would reach Elder One. The reason being that the gulf between mortal and immortal (which I filled with paramortals and quasi-gods) should parallel the gulf between the immortal and the sidereal. Of course that in itself would then require some sort of bridging gap which I would then need to discern anyway. But I think, philosophically at least, my perceptions of the Cosmic Hierarchy are probably better served when distanced somewhat to regular immortals rather than just neatly following them.

...still something for me to ponder upon I suppose.


Incidently I have thought of refering to Slaad as 'Brood'. What do you all think?

This would be like the relationship between the terms Baatezu and 'Devil'. One esoteric, one common.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Nov 2, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Incidently I have thought of refering to Slaad as 'Brood'. What do you all think?
> 
> This would be like the relationship between the terms Baatezu and 'Devil'. One esoteric, one common.




I think it works pretty well, actually.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 2, 2003)

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I think it works pretty well, actually.




I only have two Brood planned for the IH (as well as the previously mentioned discussion of planar hierarchies). One generic (Silver Brood); one specific (a Brood Lord called Cheops) so it shouldn't impose itself too much.


----------



## Impeesa (Nov 3, 2003)

Question for the expert: How powerful was Io in previous editions? I just picked up the Draconomicon, and it has a listing of the draconic pantheon putting Io at Intermediate deity. It just struck me as odd that he wouldn't be at least a Greater deity simply by virtue of being a pantheon head..

--Impeesa--


----------



## historian (Nov 3, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi historian mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





If I understand, it sounds like you would be doing away with many of the gradations in between Greater God and those beyond.  I guess this would mean whittling down the number of template levels in Sidereal and Eternal and perhaps Supernal?

This could make things a little cleaner for the reader, but it doesn't seem to me that the original plan would be too hard to follow, particulalrly given the work that you've done defining CRs and ELs.  I guess the benefit of limiting the the number of steps that you have in the ranks is that, there is no ambiguity about what role one of these beings plays in the universe.  I'll leave all of this to your judgment, and I'm sure what you come up with will work quite well, even if people don't immediately start putting an 80 quindecillion supernal into their campaigns.   

BTW - I think 'Brood' works for Slaad, very logical.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 3, 2003)

Hi Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Question for the expert: How powerful was Io in previous editions? I just picked up the Draconomicon, and it has a listing of the draconic pantheon putting Io at Intermediate deity. It just struck me as odd that he wouldn't be at least a Greater deity simply by virtue of being a pantheon head..




Well if you had asked me a few days ago I would have said that under my auspices Io would have been considered an Elder One (by virtue of him being the progenitor of an entire type of creature; whereas Moradin would not necessarily be an Elder God because he is only the progenitor of a subtype of creature).

But there are funny things going on in my head and I am contemplating a bit of a shake up in the area of cosmic deities.

There are certain classes of being that seem way too underpowered. I mean looking at the details in front of me a typical Pantheon would be more powerful than a First One (eg. Time). Philosophically (at least) that doesn't seem right to me.

The dilemmas I now face are: what happens between Greater power and Elder Power; are the powers I have created still fundamentally balanced if I change the hierarchy; do the Time Lords (or above) become so unfeasibly powerful as to not warrant any stats?

So there are questions to be answered my end.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 3, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> If I understand, it sounds like you would be doing away with many of the gradations in between Greater God and those beyond.




Well I haven't really decided yet, but I would like to move the Sidereals (Cosmic Gods) into where I currently have the Time Lords (mechanically if not philosophically).

This would create a large gap in between Greater God and Elder One; which is currently more of a progression than a gap (though there are some fundamental changes between the Divine and the Cosmic).

As a very rough guide each increase in power will generally double the power (ie. +2 EL) of the deity. So if a typical Greater God was about CR 180 a typical Elder God would be about CR 260 or thereabouts. If I was to instigate these changes then an Elder God would typically be more like CR 1000.

The reasons for this sort of staggering are to facilitate interaction between the two. You don't want the boost to be too great or too little.

However, the problem therein is that I have integrated some fairly outlandish philosophy into the cosmic gods; its not just progression for its own sake.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I guess this would mean whittling down the number of template levels in Sidereal and Eternal and perhaps Supernal?




Not necessarily. But it does make some Templates even more ridiculous in terms of application.

I mean its one thing to want to learn about the Time Lords but (if I instigate these changes) how many people are actively going to be using Eternal templates with CR bonuses of 10,000+* and thats before we even start discussing Supernals.   

*for a relatively weak Time Lord.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This could make things a little cleaner for the reader, but it doesn't seem to me that the original plan would be too hard to follow, particulalrly given the work that you've done defining CRs and ELs.




Defining the CRs is not a problem. 

Its simply a case of the philosophy not fitting the mechanics.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I guess the benefit of limiting the the number of steps that you have in the ranks is that, there is no ambiguity about what role one of these beings plays in the universe.




Even now theres no real ambiguity, its simply that the power levels seem too abrupt for what they are trying to describe.

Instead of transcending from the Divine to the Cosmic in the same way we transcend from Mortal to Divine I have mechanically condensed things too much I think.

There should really be a power buffer in the same way we have Disciples; Prophets; Hero-deities and Quasi-deities. Though I have not as yet determined the nature of that buffer.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'll leave all of this to your judgment, and I'm sure what you come up with will work quite well, even if people don't immediately start putting an 80 quindecillion supernal into their campaigns.




I never expected anyone to use such a thing but I did want to show how robust the design was.

I mean even at the moment, only THE MOST INSANE of campaigns could really use Time Lords (if your players party consists of Ao; Galactus and Goku*). So Supernals are already redundant except from a philosophical point of view (though I would always detail one example just to give people an idea of what it is).

*Super-Saiyan 4 of course



			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW - I think 'Brood' works for Slaad, very logical.




Thanks.


----------



## historian (Nov 4, 2003)

QUOTE=Upper_Krust]Hi historian mate! 



Well I haven't really decided yet, but I would like to move the Sidereals (Cosmic Gods) into where I currently have the Time Lords (mechanically if not philosophically).

This would create a large gap in between Greater God and Elder One; which is currently more of a progression than a gap (though there are some fundamental changes between the Divine and the Cosmic).

As a very rough guide each increase in power will generally double the power (ie. +2 EL) of the deity. So if a typical Greater God was about CR 180 a typical Elder God would be about CR 260 or thereabouts. If I was to instigate these changes then an Elder God would typically be more like CR 1000.

The reasons for this sort of staggering are to facilitate interaction between the two. You don't want the boost to be too great or too little.

However, the problem therein is that I have integrated some fairly outlandish philosophy into the cosmic gods; its not just progression for its own sake.[/QUOTE]


That sounds cool to me, and not at all inconsistent with any intuition or understanding that I have (Elder Gods in relation to Greater Gods that is).  Widening the gulf between Greater and Elder would keep any 2 Greater Gods (or a Greater and 4 Lesser) from teaming up on the Elder, not that the Elder couldn't draw on other resources as well, but the wider the spread, the more distinct the Elder seems (notwithstanding any qualitative differences in terms of sources of power, objectives, ethos, etc.) and the less likely "he" is displaced.




> Not necessarily. But it does make some Templates even more ridiculous in terms of application.
> 
> I mean its one thing to want to learn about the Time Lords but (if I instigate these changes) how many people are actively going to be using Eternal templates with CR bonuses of 10,000+* and thats before we even start discussing Supernals.
> 
> *for a relatively weak Time Lord.





It's tough to know, my guess is that most folks aren't quite ready to integrate some of your stronger stuff into the campaign as a legitimate encounter anyway, and to that effect, this won't bother them.  For those who may begin a new campaign that is ultra high level, the only thing that may be lost is that they won't be able to use some of the lesser ranked beings that previously would have provided them a challenge pre-change.  

In any event, I don't see this as a big problem.





> Defining the CRs is not a problem.
> 
> Its simply a case of the philosophy not fitting the mechanics



.


Right on.






> I never expected anyone to use such a thing but I did want to show how robust the design was.




Heck, I may use it, and robustness is a good thing!  



> I mean even at the moment, only THE MOST INSANE of campaigns could really use Time Lords (if your players party consists of Ao; Galactus and Goku*). So Supernals are already redundant except from a philosophical point of view (though I would always detail one example just to give people an idea of what it is).
> 
> *Super-Saiyan 4 of course






Cool, this means you might have to add a few zeros yet to the CR of the highest-end supernal template  , but I think you are doing a great job to include it, it's actually the only complete codification of the RPG/Comic cosmological system that I am aware of.

What can I say Krust, you da' man!  





> Thanks.





You're welcome.


----------



## historian (Nov 4, 2003)

> QUOTE=Upper_Krust]Hi historian mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That sounds cool to me, and not at all inconsistent with any intuition or understanding that I have (Elder Gods in relation to Greater Gods that is).  Widening the gulf between Greater and Elder would keep any 2 Greater Gods (or a Greater and 4 Lesser) from teaming up on the Elder, not that the Elder couldn't draw on other resources as well, but the wider the spread, the more distinct the Elder seems (notwithstanding any qualitative differences in terms of sources of power, objectives, ethos, etc.) and the less likely "he" is displaced.




> Not necessarily. But it does make some Templates even more ridiculous in terms of application.
> 
> I mean its one thing to want to learn about the Time Lords but (if I instigate these changes) how many people are actively going to be using Eternal templates with CR bonuses of 10,000+* and thats before we even start discussing Supernals.
> 
> *for a relatively weak Time Lord.





It's tough to know, my guess is that most folks aren't quite ready to integrate some of your stronger stuff into the campaign as a legitimate encounter anyway, and to that effect, this won't bother them.  For those who may begin a new campaign that is ultra high level, the only thing that may be lost is that they won't be able to use some of the lesser ranked beings that previously would have provided them a challenge pre-change.  

In any event, I don't see this as a big problem.





> Defining the CRs is not a problem.
> 
> Its simply a case of the philosophy not fitting the mechanics





Right on.





> I never expected anyone to use such a thing but I did want to show how robust the design was.




Heck, I may use it, and robustness is a good thing!  



> I mean even at the moment, only THE MOST INSANE of campaigns could really use Time Lords (if your players party consists of Ao; Galactus and Goku*). So Supernals are already redundant except from a philosophical point of view (though I would always detail one example just to give people an idea of what it is).
> 
> *Super-Saiyan 4 of course






Cool, this means you might have to add a few zeros yet to the CR of the highest-end supernal template  , but I think you are doing a great job to include it, it's actually the only complete codification of the RPG/Comic cosmological system that I am aware of.

What can I say Krust, you da' man!  





> Thanks.





You're welcome.


----------



## Alzrius (Nov 4, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well if you had asked me a few days ago I would have said that under my auspices Io would have been considered an Elder One (by virtue of him being the progenitor of an entire type of creature; whereas Moradin would not necessarily be an Elder God because he is only the progenitor of a subtype of creature).




Not to nitpick, but as I understood it, Moradin did create all dwarves; Laduegur (I know I misspelled that) just corrupted the duergur into their current form. Likewise, Moradin and the other dwarven gods don't consider the derro to be dwarves at all - to them, the derro and their gods are freakish monsters.



> _But there are funny things going on in my head and I am contemplating a bit of a shake up in the area of cosmic deities._




Speaking strictly from a publishing viewpoint...isn't it realy bad to decide to go back and redesign part of a product just before its finished?



> _There are certain classes of being that seem way too underpowered. I mean looking at the details in front of me a typical Pantheon would be more powerful than a First One (eg. Time). Philosophically (at least) that doesn't seem right to me._




I can understand both points of this dilemma. I'd say not to agonize over that too much, since even a horde of low-level characters can overwhelm a high-level one...similar principle...though I do see the rationale for wanting a First One to be able to pu the smack down on an entire pantheon.



> _The dilemmas I now face are: what happens between Greater power and Elder Power; are the powers I have created still fundamentally balanced if I change the hierarchy; do the Time Lords (or above) become so unfeasibly powerful as to not warrant any stats?_




Meaning that a lot would have to be recalculated in terms of power for these beings to deal with each other...this is why its bad to realize all this just before putting the book out.

In regards to some beings that are so unbelieveably powerful that they don't/shouldn't need stats...there is a point where it seems to become ridiculous...but there are others who would say that for the gods themselves (like the last two editions did) or for beings like Ao (which is still maintains don't need stats). Basically, I think you've come too far already to worry about whether you're making beings so damn strong that they don't need numbers...you've gone this far, so go the distance!


----------



## Yair (Nov 4, 2003)

I was just wondering, given the obscenly high CRs and (I presume) high levels, will the IH include guidelines for determining such a tall order of skill checks? Personally, I haven't got a clue what a DC 1,000 Knowledge (Nobility) or Sense Motive would mean, or how it would differ from DC 500 or even DC 50.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 4, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That sounds cool to me, and not at all inconsistent with any intuition or understanding that I have (Elder Gods in relation to Greater Gods that is).  Widening the gulf between Greater and Elder would keep any 2 Greater Gods (or a Greater and 4 Lesser) from teaming up on the Elder, not that the Elder couldn't draw on other resources as well, but the wider the spread, the more distinct the Elder seems (notwithstanding any qualitative differences in terms of sources of power, objectives, ethos, etc.) and the less likely "he" is displaced.




Exactly. It was getting to the stage that a single Pantheon could defeat one of the First Ones; which was a bit ludicrous.

Incidently I think I know the outcome of how to solve the dilemma mecahnically*, I just haven't arrived at a reasoning to suit the mechanics yet.

*Essentially you double the power of the steps on the Cosmic scale so that 'on average' one Elder God would be equal to four greater gods instead of two etc. Of course all that in itself throws up other questions to be answered. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> It's tough to know, my guess is that most folks aren't quite ready to integrate some of your stronger stuff into the campaign as a legitimate encounter anyway, and to that effect, this won't bother them.




Exactly.

Though I know a few campaigns are running around with Overgod PCs so those would still be worthwhile mechanics for a few.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> For those who may begin a new campaign that is ultra high level, the only thing that may be lost is that they won't be able to use some of the lesser ranked beings that previously would have provided them a challenge pre-change.
> 
> In any event, I don't see this as a big problem.




Hopefully not.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Heck, I may use it, and robustness is a good thing!








			
				historian said:
			
		

> Cool, this means you might have to add a few zeros yet to the CR of the highest-end supernal template  , but I think you are doing a great job to include it, it's actually the only complete codification of the RPG/Comic cosmological system that I am aware of.




Thats part of the plan. Certainly the Marvel Universe (and to a lesser extent the DC Universe) has inspired certain ideas of mine, and I have always been of the mind that someone would be able to rate the Marvel Universe using my over-arching cosmology.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> What can I say Krust, you da' man!




We'll see. I appreciate the support as ever.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 4, 2003)

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Not to nitpick, but as I understood it, Moradin did create all dwarves; Laduegur (I know I misspelled that) just corrupted the duergur into their current form. Likewise, Moradin and the other dwarven gods don't consider the derro to be dwarves at all - to them, the derro and their gods are freakish monsters.




What I meant was that Dwarves are merely a subtype of Humanoid. If you had been responsible for creating ALL humanoids then I would consider you an Elder God.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Speaking strictly from a publishing viewpoint...isn't it realy bad to decide to go back and redesign part of a product just before its finished?




I don't see it as a redesign, but more akin to a moving of the goal posts.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I can understand both points of this dilemma. I'd say not to agonize over that too much, since even a horde of low-level characters can overwhelm a high-level one...similar principle...though I do see the rationale for wanting a First One to be able to pu the smack down on an entire pantheon.




Exactly.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Meaning that a lot would have to be recalculated in terms of power for these beings to deal with each other...this is why its bad to realize all this just before putting the book out.




Its not the major upheaval you might imagine.

The majority of the book concentrates on Immortals (Demigod to Greater God); beyond that is a lot of uncharted territory (I don't recall any books detailing 'Overgods' before and I go way beyond Overgod). I don't want to make the cosmic beings mere extensions of power, I want to breathe life into them, to give them a purpose for existing.

If the purpose conflicts with the mechanics then its the mechanics that need to be changed. Power without perception is ultimately futile. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> In regards to some beings that are so unbelieveably powerful that they don't/shouldn't need stats...there is a point where it seems to become ridiculous...but there are others who would say that for the gods themselves (like the last two editions did) or for beings like Ao (which is still maintains don't need stats). Basically, I think you've come too far already to worry about whether you're making beings so damn strong that they don't need numbers...you've gone this far, so go the distance!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 4, 2003)

Hey Yair mate! 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> I was just wondering, given the obscenly high CRs and (I presume) high levels, will the IH include guidelines for determining such a tall order of skill checks? Personally, I haven't got a clue what a DC 1,000 Knowledge (Nobility) or Sense Motive would mean, or how it would differ from DC 500 or even DC 50.




Yes. As well as trying to explain what exceptionally high mental ability scores mean.

Though to be fair there are likely to be feats, abilities or spells that accomplish the same things long before you arrive at such lofty skill scores.

Knowledge is one of those skills that should really be capped at a certain point. Once you have Encyclopedic knowledge of a subject its time to move on I feel.

Sense Motive will start to let you automatically second guess your opponents actions (of course the DC depends on the opponent).


----------



## Kavon (Nov 4, 2003)

Upper_Crust said:
			
		

> Alzrius said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why not make it so that a First One can put the smack down on an 'average' pantheon, but that a more powerful pantheon would have a better chance to stand against one.

It would be a similar situation as the hoard of low level characters beating down the higher level one. Just make it so that the hoard of low level characters would equal the more powerful pantheon, and the high level one the First One.
Since I don't know the power difference between a Greater Deity and a First One, I can't really say more than that about the matter.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Nov 4, 2003)

Yo Krust, care to leak any info on philosophically wear various ranks may stand.  Like what's an elder god's purpose in the universe?  so on and so forth?  And is there a specific rank for demiurgic beings?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 4, 2003)

Heu Kavon mate !



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Why not make it so that a First One can put the smack down on an 'average' pantheon, but that a more powerful pantheon would have a better chance to stand against one.




Well I don't really see any Pantheon tackling a First One let alone actually defeating one. 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> It would be a similar situation as the hoard of low level characters beating down the higher level one. Just make it so that the hoard of low level characters would equal the more powerful pantheon, and the high level one the First One.




In such situations you have to remember the plateau that exists.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Since I don't know the power difference between a Greater Deity and a First One, I can't really say more than that about the matter.




To use a comic book analogy think of putting the Asgardians up against something like Eternity.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 4, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Yo Krust, care to leak any info on philosophically wear various ranks may stand.




Not really, no. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Like what's an elder god's purpose in the universe?  so on and so forth?




You know to be honest I am sure I have posted rudimentary details of the cosmic gods sometime in the past.

But if people have forgotten then no point going into details again at this stage. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> And is there a specific rank for demiurgic beings?




If by Demiurgic you mean Time Lords then yes, although I am contemplating tweaking the Eternal and Supernal hierarchies at the moment.


----------



## Kavon (Nov 4, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Heu Kavon mate!




Hey U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I don't really see any Pantheon tackling a First One let alone actually defeating one.




Hmm... Ok. *wouldn't know* 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> In such situations you have to remember the plateau that exists.




Well, yeah. That's true.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> To use a comic book analogy think of putting the Asgardians up against something like Eternity.




Ah, ok. I see the difference.
Are there any stages inbetween? (I don't remember the list you posted a while back  ). If not, then there probably should be? (if there are, just ignore little ol' me  ).


----------



## Roman (Nov 4, 2003)

Hello UK!

I don't suppose you could tell us what the subdivisions of the Sidereal and Eternal groups are? It's not like you would be telling us what they do, so you would not spoil the surprise in the book - you would merely pique our interest still further (as if it was not piqued enough already  ). I would ask for the Supernal subdivisions too, but I don't really expect you to type out a list of 72...

Also, what is the difference if any, between Timelords and Elder Gods and Supernals? I cannot see Elder Gods or Timelords on your list, but I remember you mentioning them a long, long time ago...


----------



## Roman (Nov 4, 2003)

Oh, and two more if you don't mind. 

1) What are demiurgic beings?

2) Do you have Cosmic Gods are not in your hierarchy, but you do mention them. You have me confused.

Thanks.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 5, 2003)

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hiya mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Ah, ok. I see the difference.
> Are there any stages inbetween? (I don't remember the list you posted a while back  ). If not, then there probably should be? (if there are, just ignore little ol' me  ).




Oh okay then.

Immortals (Divine Gods)
Demi-deity
Lesser Deity
Intermediate Deity
Greater Deity

Sidereals (Cosmic Gods)
Elder One
Old One
First One
High One

Eternals (Omnific Gods)


Supernals (Metempiric Gods)


----------



## Roman (Nov 5, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Sidereals (Cosmic Gods)
> Elder One
> Old One
> First One
> High One




Thanks! 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Eternals (Omnific Gods)
> 
> 
> Supernals (Metempiric Gods)




Come on U_K, you know you want to tell us the ranks (well, at least we know we want you to  ).


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 5, 2003)

Roman said:
			
		

> Hello UK!




Hey Roman matey! 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> I don't suppose you could tell us what the subdivisions of the Sidereal and Eternal groups are?




The Sidereals are in the previous post, as for the Eternals...don't chance your arm. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> It's not like you would be telling us what they do,




Darn right I won't. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> so you would not spoil the surprise in the book - you would merely pique our interest still further (as if it was not piqued enough already  ).




I like to keep my cards close to my chest. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> I would ask for the Supernal subdivisions too, but I don't really expect you to type out a list of 72...




If I typed one you could guess them all, and thats the only clue you get.

At the moment I am considering a bit of a shake up in the upper echelons, so some things may get changed or switched in the final work.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Also, what is the difference if any, between Timelords and Elder Gods and Supernals? I cannot see Elder Gods or Timelords on your list, but I remember you mentioning them a long, long time ago...




Time Lords is another name for Eternals.


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 5, 2003)

Hello again mate! 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Oh, and two more if you don't mind.




Fire away.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> 1) What are demiurgic beings?




Technically theres no such thing, I think Bjorn was getting a bit carried away with himself, though its an interesting term, right up there with Sephirothic. 

I do of course explain what a Demiurge is, but of course I can't divulge secrets like that, now can I. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> 2) Do you have Cosmic Gods are not in your hierarchy, but you do mention them. You have me confused.




They should be detailed previously.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Thanks.




My pleasure.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Come on U_K, you know you want to tell us the ranks (well, at least we know we want you to   ).




To quote Jabba the Hutt:
"Ho ho ho. Ya koo tocha ka poonoo nee sok nyee."


Incidently I saw an interesting movie last night called "The Ninth Gate" starring Johnny Depp. It was a sort of Occult Thriller which centred around a book called the Nine Gates of the Kingdom of Shadows. Nicely put together movie, made me think it would have been nice to get a sort of medieval woodcut style illustrations for the IH. I wonder are there any sort of fantasy artists who have that sort of style? Anyone come across any?


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## Roman (Nov 5, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Roman matey!
> The Sidereals are in the previous post, as for the Eternals...don't chance your arm.




:crying: Pretty please   



> If I typed one you could guess them all, and thats the only clue you get.




Fair enough 



> At the moment I am considering a bit of a shake up in the upper echelons, so some things may get changed or switched in the final work.
> 
> Time Lords is another name for Eternals.




Ok, that makes sense.

BTW: Judging purely from the names; I would switch the ranks of Eternals and Supernals and make Eternals the top beings.


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## Roman (Nov 5, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hello again mate!
> I do of course explain what a Demiurge is, but of course I can't divulge secrets like that, now can I.




Ok, I will look it up in the dictionary (I am not a native English speaker).  



> Incidently I saw an interesting movie last night called "The Ninth Gate" starring Johnny Depp. It was a sort of Occult Thriller which centred around a book called the Nine Gates of the Kingdom of Shadows. Nicely put together movie, made me think it would have been nice to get a sort of medieval woodcut style illustrations for the IH. I wonder are there any sort of fantasy artists who have that sort of style? Anyone come across any?




Hmm, could you link some screenshots, so that we can better determine the art style you are looking for?


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 5, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Hmm, could you link some screenshots, so that we can better determine the art style you are looking for?




I'll see if I can find them:

http://www.eclectichistorian.net/Engravings/

http://www.apocprod.com/Pages/prop_pages/ninedoors.htm


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## Roman (Nov 5, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!
> http://www.eclectichistorian.net/Engravings/
> 
> http://www.apocprod.com/Pages/prop_pages/ninedoors.htm




Oh yes, now I remember the movie...

As to finding the artist, let me check what I can do. 

*Edited to clarify*

It appears I mistakenly implied that I am an artist - what I meant to say is: let me see what I can do in terms of *finding* an artist.


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## Alzrius (Nov 5, 2003)

U_K, another question...

How will the IH address the ever-growing gap in how tough the monsters are versus how fast the group advances when the campaign is at such a high level? For example, if a uber-epic campaign starts out with a group of 100th-level characters, and the campaign's arch-villain was, say, a First one of CR 500 (I'm just taking a wild guess here), at normal game-play, it would take that group decades to reach a level where they could challenge that villain with any hope of winning (unless the DM was the mother of all Monty Haulers).

The problem, as I see it, is that the challenge ratings will no longer grow by just a factor of 1 as the group rises, but by larger and larger amounts (that's how I'm assuming the book works at any rate) for such mighty beings...but the style of gaming assumes that you gain levels singly and slowly at any and every point during the campaign.

On a related note, will the IH have enough of a variety of beings to keep these campaigns viable at such a wide range of high levels? Just covering CRs 20-10,000 means a lot of monsters will be needed for all those CRs, and when you factor in that just having one or two monsters per CR-range isn't enough ("Yawn, _another_ Horror From Beyond the Void?" "Hey, it's the only CR 480 monster the book _has_ okay?!")...that's expecting quite a bit from this.


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## Kavon (Nov 5, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!




Hey again U_K 



			
				Upper_Crust said:
			
		

> Oh okay then.
> 
> Immortals (Divine Gods)
> Demi-deity
> ...




Ah, thanks 

Ok, Immortals, Sidereals, Eternals, and Supernals (I'm assuming Supernals are even more eteral than the Eternals?  )
How much power difference is there between a Greater Deity and an Elder One?
Is it about the same as the difference between an Intermediate Deity and a Greater Deity, and an Elder One to an Old One? Or is there a leap in the difference due to the fact that one is of the Immortal group, and the other of the Sidereal group?


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 5, 2003)

Hey Roman mate! 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Oh yes, now I remember the movie...




I do enjoy those sort of occult thrillers and chillers.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> As to finding the artist, let me check what I can do.




Thanks mate. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> *Edited to clarify*
> 
> It appears I mistakenly implied that I am an artist - what I meant to say is: let me see what I can do in terms of *finding* an artist.




Indeed.


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 5, 2003)

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> U_K, another question...




Sure, fire away.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> How will the IH address the ever-growing gap in how tough the monsters are versus how fast the group advances when the campaign is at such a high level? For example, if a uber-epic campaign starts out with a group of 100th-level characters, and the campaign's arch-villain was, say, a First one of CR 500 (I'm just taking a wild guess here), at normal game-play, it would take that group decades to reach a level where they could challenge that villain with any hope of winning (unless the DM was the mother of all Monty Haulers).




Well remember that not only can you ascend in experience level but you can also increase your divine status by gaining worship points.

That said, I try to emphasize roleplaying as the servants and worshippers as well. Its not just about the deity, hopefully thats something people will pick up on...its not how much power do you need to defeat bad guy _x_; its what can I do with the power I have now. There are always going to be threats you just can't defeat; you'll need to flex your roleplaying muscles as well as your 'roll-playing' ones.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The problem, as I see it, is that the challenge ratings will no longer grow by just a factor of 1 as the group rises, but by larger and larger amounts (that's how I'm assuming the book works at any rate) for such mighty beings...but the style of gaming assumes that you gain levels singly and slowly at any and every point during the campaign.




You are looking at level ascension from a non-divine perspective. Did you ever wonder why a deity might be thousands of years old but only have about 50 levels. Leveling up is more difficult the higher you ascend. Leveling up means risking your divinity. Whereas expanding your worship base risks your worshippers.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> On a related note, will the IH have enough of a variety of beings to keep these campaigns viable at such a wide range of high levels? Just covering CRs 20-10,000 means a lot of monsters will be needed for all those CRs, and when you factor in that just having one or two monsters per CR-range isn't enough ("Yawn, _another_ Horror From Beyond the Void?" "Hey, it's the only CR 480 monster the book _has_ okay?!")...that's expecting quite a bit from this.




Well I have the monsters loosely broken down into challenges for certain deities, so you'll have moderate threats for everything covering Divine through Cosmic ranges of power, with maybe one Omnific threat. Also there will be a handful of Templates covering these areas as well (not to mention the divinity Templates themselves). Finally there will be a number of sample deities to use as you see fit.

I also have a section on Quick Templates; which are like very brief ways of changing a creature.

So there should be enough monsters, if feedback says there isn't then I have a surplus of monsters at the minute that I could work into an extended Immortal Bestiary II. Also the following Immortals Index will also cover monsters from the appropriate mythology as well as the Pantheon itself.


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 5, 2003)

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey again U_K




Hiya mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Ok, Immortals, Sidereals, Eternals, and Supernals (I'm assuming Supernals are even more eteral than the Eternals?  )








			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> How much power difference is there between a Greater Deity and an Elder One?
> 
> Is it about the same as the difference between an Intermediate Deity and a Greater Deity, and an Elder One to an Old One? Or is there a leap in the difference due to the fact that one is of the Immortal group, and the other of the Sidereal group?




The difference *was* the same, but thats the very thing I am looking towards changing at the moment. Elder Ones and Old Ones (etc.) should be vastly more powerful.


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## Kavon (Nov 5, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!




Hey U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The difference *was* the same, but thats the very thing I am looking towards changing at the moment. Elder Ones and Old Ones (etc.) should be vastly more powerful.



Hmm... Ok.
What would a Greater Deity have to do to become an Elder One?


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 5, 2003)

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hiya mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hmm... Ok.
> What would a Greater Deity have to do to become an Elder One?




They could always read the Immortals Handbook.


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## CRGreathouse (Nov 5, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yes. As well as trying to explain what exceptionally high mental ability scores mean.
> 
> Though to be fair there are likely to be feats, abilities or spells that accomplish the same things long before you arrive at such lofty skill scores.
> 
> Knowledge is one of those skills that should really be capped at a certain point. Once you have Encyclopedic knowledge of a subject its time to move on I feel.




What score would be sufficient for encyclopedic knowledge?


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## Anabstercorian (Nov 5, 2003)

I think DC 50 should let you know pretty much anything about a subject - Once you have a modifier of +49, (which could be managed at 20th with 23 ranks, +10 intelligence, +13 magical item to Knowledge worth 16900 gp) you Know All That Matters.  Past that, you'll start gaining simply absurd degrees of information.

For Knowledge: Nobility
DC 50 - You can name every single noble family ever to exist on your Material Plane, all of their family members, and explicitly diagram their history of interactions back to the dawn of recorded history.
DC 70 - Same as 50, except any noble family of Outsiders, Fey, or Elementals ever to exist in the Elemental, Ethereal, Astral, or Outer planes.
DC 90 - Same as 70, except that you can describe the personal habits of each and every one of these noblemen, and every single blackmailable deed they have ever committed.
And you could go on, but really - How much of that do you need to know?

The only knowledge skill that could conceivably scale forever is probably either Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: Planes.  Both of those deal with subjects that have no limits under the system outlined in the Immortals Handbook.  Even knowing the EXISTENCE of Metempiric beings would probably be a triple-digit check.  Knowing one of their names could well be quadruple digit, and knowing how to properly worship one would likely by quintuple digit.


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## Kavon (Nov 5, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!




Hey U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> They could always read the Immortals Handbook.



Oh, asking for too much, ok 

I was just wondering how much different the two would be, since the jumps were equal at first, but larger now. Is it something like twice as strong? More (3 times)? Less (1.5)?


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## historian (Nov 5, 2003)

The knowledge skill is an interesting one.  I suppose that in addition to religious and planar knowledge, forms of knowledge dealing with infinitely divisible subject matter (I'm thinking of alchemy in particular) could theoretically scale forever, although I wouldn't be the one to come up with the scale (although I suspect Krust could).  Although I guess that one could take a different philosophical bent and contend that there is no subject matter is infinitely divisible, and my theory is out the window.  

Perhaps the easiest way to deal with this 'infinite' knowledge is to make it concommitant with total consciousness, which in turn might only be obtained by merging with the akashic record or heart of the universe or some such.  

Ultimately though, I agree with the point that there is definite practical end of the knowledge scale, beyond which there are likely to be no benefits unless one literally possessed infinite knowledge.


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## CRGreathouse (Nov 5, 2003)

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> For Knowledge: Nobility
> DC 50 - You can name every single noble family ever to exist on your Material Plane, all of their family members, and explicitly diagram their history of interactions back to the dawn of recorded history.
> DC 70 - Same as 50, except any noble family of Outsiders, Fey, or Elementals ever to exist in the Elemental, Ethereal, Astral, or Outer planes.
> DC 90 - Same as 70, except that you can describe the personal habits of each and every one of these noblemen, and every single blackmailable deed they have ever committed.
> ...




The Knowledge (nobility) DCs you list seem quite low, while the Knowledge (religion) DCs look much too high.  Off the top of my head, I'd put knowledge of the existance of supernals at DC 80, and naming them around DC 100 (depending on the being, of course).  Why would you put them so high?


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## Revenge of the Bjorn (Nov 6, 2003)

What's wrong with the term demiurgic beings(except its being in plural which I'm certain can be rectified in a fantasy universe)?  

As per dictionary.com:  

dem·i·urge    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (dm-ûrj)
n. 
A powerful creative force or personality. 
A public magistrate in some ancient Greek states. 
Demiurge A deity in Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and other religions who creates the material world and is often viewed as the originator of evil. 
Demiurge A Platonic deity who orders or fashions the material world out of chaos. 


[Late Latin dmiurgus, from Greek dmiourgos, artisan  : dmios, public (from dmos, people. See d- in Indo-European Roots) + ergos, worker (from ergon, work. See werg- in Indo-European Roots).]
demi·urgeous (-ûrjs) or demi·urgic (-jk) or demi·urgi·cal (-j-kl) adj. 
demi·urgi·cal·ly adv. 

Seems to be a word to me?  And it fits with being as a Gnostic or Platonic deity would most likely be a being, right?  

I believe I'm owed an apology.


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 6, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What score would be sufficient for encyclopedic knowledge?




I was thinking along similar lines to Anabstercorian in that it would be about DC 50 for encyclopedic knowledge.


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 6, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I think DC 50 should let you know pretty much anything about a subject - Once you have a modifier of +49, (which could be managed at 20th with 23 ranks, +10 intelligence, +13 magical item to Knowledge worth 16900 gp) you Know All That Matters.  Past that, you'll start gaining simply absurd degrees of information.




Agreed.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> For Knowledge: Nobility
> DC 50 - You can name every single noble family ever to exist on your Material Plane, all of their family members, and explicitly diagram their history of interactions back to the dawn of recorded history.
> DC 70 - Same as 50, except any noble family of Outsiders, Fey, or Elementals ever to exist in the Elemental, Ethereal, Astral, or Outer planes.
> DC 90 - Same as 70, except that you can describe the personal habits of each and every one of these noblemen, and every single blackmailable deed they have ever committed.
> And you could go on, but really - How much of that do you need to know?




Exactly, I think you have to ask yourself at which point does the minutiae stop.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> The only knowledge skill that could conceivably scale forever is probably either Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: Planes.  Both of those deal with subjects that have no limits under the system outlined in the Immortals Handbook.  Even knowing the EXISTENCE of Metempiric beings would probably be a triple-digit check.  Knowing one of their names could well be quadruple digit, and knowing how to properly worship one would likely by quintuple digit.




Interesting ideas, I may have to incorporate something along those lines.


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 6, 2003)

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hi Kavon mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Oh, asking for too much, ok




You guessed it! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> I was just wondering how much different the two would be, since the jumps were equal at first, but larger now. Is it something like twice as strong? More (3 times)? Less (1.5)?




I'll probably be gunning for approx. four times the power with the leap to cosmic; note thats *not* a fourfold increase in CR (As per the CR/EL rules).


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 6, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The knowledge skill is an interesting one.  I suppose that in addition to religious and planar knowledge, forms of knowledge dealing with infinitely divisible subject matter (I'm thinking of alchemy in particular) could theoretically scale forever, although I wouldn't be the one to come up with the scale (although I suspect Krust could).




I only really plan on extending the stuff thats already in the Epic Level Handbook; not to rewrite it. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Although I guess that one could take a different philosophical bent and contend that there is no subject matter is infinitely divisible, and my theory is out the window.
> 
> Perhaps the easiest way to deal with this 'infinite' knowledge is to make it concommitant with total consciousness, which in turn might only be obtained by merging with the akashic record or heart of the universe or some such.




Heh heh! Heart of the Universe. I like that parallel. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Ultimately though, I agree with the point that there is definite practical end of the knowledge scale, beyond which there are likely to be no benefits unless one literally possessed infinite knowledge.




Indeed. What I have tried to do is philosophise beyond the skills themselves into abstract applications of them...or somesuch. Of course time will tell if this idea gels.


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## Matrix Sorcica (Nov 6, 2003)

Hi Krust!

Will the IH include your take on the Gods in Deities & Demigods?

I'm not very keen on the official non-epic, so a krusty take on Tiamat, Bahamut, Lolth, Thor and Hades etc. would be much appreciated.

I'm aware of copyright issues of course, but some fiffling with names can go a long way.

So?


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## Upper_Krust (Nov 6, 2003)

Hi Bjorn matey! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> What's wrong with the term demiurgic beings (except its being in plural which I'm certain can be rectified in a fantasy universe)?




Nothings wrong with it, in fact I quite like it. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> As per dictionary.com:
> 
> dem·i·urge    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (dm-ûrj)
> n.
> ...




I was never refuting the existence of such a word, just that I had never used the term demiurgic myself and as such you were putting words in my mouth...which of course led other people to inquire where I had been hiding this demiurgic class of beings, and so forth. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> I believe I'm owed an apology.




I humbly beg your forgiveness.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 6, 2003)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Hi Krust!




Hi Sorcica mate! 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> Will the IH include your take on the Gods in Deities & Demigods?




Not to any great extent. There will be some sample deities and some iconic deities, but I will be saving the Pantheons for the Immortals Index.



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> I'm not very keen on the official non-epic, so a krusty take on Tiamat, Bahamut, Lolth, Thor and Hades etc. would be much appreciated.
> 
> I'm aware of copyright issues of course, but some fiffling with names can go a long way.
> 
> So?




I am sure Tiamat; Bahamut; Lilith; Thor and Hades would not be copyright protected.

Of those Tiamat will be in the Babylo-Sumerian (Mesopotamian) Pantheon Index; Thor is obviously in the Norse and Hades in the Greco-Roman. I haven't decided where exactly Bahamut is going since there are a number of derivations of his name in multiple Pantheons.

I have considered using Lilith: Mother of Demons in the Immortals Handbook; nicely parallels Lucifer as the Father of Devils...don't you think?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Nov 6, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Not to any great extent. There will be some sample deities and some iconic deities, but I will be saving the Pantheons for the Immortals Index.




Guess that's what I meant. Not really if they are in the IH or a later book, but if they will be there at all. Thanks.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I am sure Tiamat; Bahamut; Lilith; Thor and Hades would not be copyright protected.
> 
> Of those Tiamat will be in the Babylo-Sumerian (Mesopotamian) Pantheon Index; Thor is obviously in the Norse and Hades in the Greco-Roman. I haven't decided where exactly Bahamut is going since there are a number of derivations of his name in multiple Pantheons.




I was thinking Tiamat and Bahamut in their draconian D&D versions. Are they draconic in Babylo-Sumerian mythology as well? I'm not very familiar with this mythos.   



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have considered using Lilith: Mother of Demons in the Immortals Handbook; nicely parallels Lucifer as the Father of Devils...don't you think?




I do indeed. It sounds cool.
But I was asking about Lolth   (and she _is_ copyrighted - just ask Fast Forward Entertainment   )


----------



## Kavon (Nov 6, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Kavon mate!




Hey U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You guessed it!






(while I was writing that question, it didn't even crossed my mind that the answer to the question would be a spoiler  )



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'll probably be gunning for approx. four times the power with the leap to cosmic; note thats *not* a fourfold increase in CR (As per the CR/EL rules).




Ah, ok. That's quite the difference, yeah.
How much increase in power are there between, say, an Elder One and an Old One?

Edit:


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have considered using Lilith: Mother of Demons in the Immortals Handbook; nicely parallels Lucifer as the Father of Devils...don't you think?




I always liked the name Samael better than Lucifer 

Edit 2: Probably cause "lucifer" is Dutch for a match stick


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 6, 2003)

Hi Sorcica mate! 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> Guess that's what I meant. Not really if they are in the IH or a later book, but if they will be there at all. Thanks.








			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> I was thinking Tiamat and Bahamut in their draconian D&D versions. Are they draconic in Babylo-Sumerian mythology as well? I'm not very familiar with this mythos.




Tiamat is, Bahamut isn't (depending on where hes sourced from).



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> I do indeed. It sounds cool.
> But I was asking about Lolth   (and she _is_ copyrighted - just ask Fast Forward Entertainment   )




Where do you think the name Lolth derives from.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Nov 6, 2003)

Krust, I see the issue now, but in my defense, I believe you _did_ have Demiurge listed as a rank of divinity in the early days, and I seem to remember in one of your past assesments of ranks one rank was for divinities which created planes, so that's what I meant.  

It would be nice to see Lillith included, and the way you phrased the idea ("nicely parallels Lucifer as the Father of Devils") seems to point to Lucifer's inclusion, no?  That definately would be fun.  As per various names, I've always found Satan overused.  Lucifer sounds much fancier, and Samael doesn't roll off the tongue quite so well.  Although I can see how the matchstick association could ruin the name Lucifer for you.


----------



## Kavon (Nov 6, 2003)

Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> As per various names, I've always found Satan overused.  Lucifer sounds much fancier, and Samael doesn't roll off the tongue quite so well.  Although I can see how the matchstick association could ruin the name Lucifer for you.



Hmm... Yeah, I can see why some people would have a problem with the name (though, Michael has the 'ael' thing too, and it's been used so often that the pronunciation goes easily enough). As far as I know, all the original angels have names ending with either 'iel' or 'ael'. Something to do with being of God or something like that. Samael was 'Poison of God' I think..

But yeah, I can see it now..

"I am Lucifer! Lord of Matchsti- er... Devils!!!"


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 6, 2003)

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hi Kavon mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> (while I was writing that question, it didn't even crossed my mind that the answer to the question would be a spoiler  )




Everythings a spoiler, I just sometimes give in to you guys too easily. 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Ah, ok. That's quite the difference, yeah.
> How much increase in power are there between, say, an Elder One and an Old One?




I think I would like to keep the differences between the Cosmic Powers roughly similar.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> I always liked the name Samael better than Lucifer




I think 'Luci' carries more gravitas.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Edit 2: Probably cause "lucifer" is Dutch for a match stick


----------



## historian (Nov 6, 2003)

Hello Krust!



> Heh heh! Heart of the Universe. I like that parallel.





I figured that you'd like that.  

I think I fully understand the latest scaling through the first rank of sidereal to the last rank of eternal.  I also understand that this means an effective boost in power for the lower rank supernals, as they would overlap in CR w/the eternals otherwise (logically speaking, I can't be sure of this point, as I only know where you previously had the 69th highest rank of divinity, and there would be room in between this ranking and where the current final rank of eternal would end).  I also know that the highest rank of previously posted supernal would outstrip even the latest scaling rate (i.e., assuming CR 180 is the rough basis for the greater god, and each subsequent level scales at a rate of EL + 4--or CR * 2--, one still wouldn't reach the highest level of supernal if one went through 80 iterations of scaling).

My question is, will we see the maximum rank of supernal extended further and whether you can provide any insight into how you foresee the supernal template scaling?   

I know, I know, I'm probabaly asking to be shot down, but I can't contain myself.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 6, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust!




Hiya mate!  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I figured that you'd like that.




Speaking of comics did you see the cover of JLA*Avengers 3!?

http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6476

Click on the image for a larger version.

Let me just state this again for the record; *this JLA*Avengers title is THE best comic I have EVER read!* Its quite simply perfection in comic form.

...nuff said.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I think I fully understand the latest scaling through the first rank of sidereal to the last rank of eternal.




Well I wish you would explain it to me. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I also understand that this means an effective boost in power for the lower rank supernals, as they would overlap in CR w/the eternals otherwise (logically speaking, I can't be sure of this point, as I only know where you previously had the 69th highest rank of divinity, and there would be room in between this ranking and where the current final rank of eternal would end).  I also know that the highest rank of previously posted supernal would outstrip even the latest scaling rate (i.e., assuming CR 180 is the rough basis for the greater god, and each subsequent level scales at a rate of EL + 4--or CR * 2--, one still wouldn't reach the highest level of supernal if one went through 80 iterations of scaling).
> 
> My question is, will we see the maximum rank of supernal extended further and whether you can provide any insight into how you foresee the supernal template scaling?
> 
> I know, I know, I'm probabaly asking to be shot down, but I can't contain myself.




Well I have revised the cosmic ranks to my satisfaction, my attention is currently fixed upon the Eternals and the Supernals. I am debating swopping a few things around to see which gels the best.


----------



## historian (Nov 7, 2003)

Howdy Krust!




> Speaking of comics did you see the cover of JLA*Avengers 3!?
> 
> http://newsarama.com/forums/showthr...=&threadid=6476
> 
> ...




I love crossovers!




> ...nuff said.





Go Stan!


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by historian
I think I fully understand the latest scaling through the first rank of sidereal to the last rank of eternal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




> Well I wish you would explain it to me.





I was speaking specifically in terms of how the math scaled, not the other issues which are yours to bang out.   What can I say, I was aking for it.  




> Well I have revised the cosmic ranks to my satisfaction, my attention is currently fixed upon the Eternals and the Supernals. I am debating swopping a few things around to see which gels the best.





Cool, I'm all ears!


----------



## Roman (Nov 7, 2003)

With regards to the 'Knowledge Skills', I would agree that beyond 50 ranks it simply looses its meaning. Judging from the difficulty tables in the DMG it seems to me that the effects of skills increase at an exponential rate with each point added and this of course becomes particularly pronounced at higher rank levels. Well, perhaps the effects are not exponential - I have not mathematically analysed them   , but they definitely have increasing returns to scale.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 7, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I love crossovers!




This is the mother of all crossovers! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Go Stan!




Excelsior!



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I was speaking specifically in terms of how the math scaled, not the other issues which are yours to bang out.   What can I say, I was asking for it.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> Cool, I'm all ears!




...that actually gives me an idea for a new monster.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 7, 2003)

Hi Roman mate! 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> With regards to the 'Knowledge Skills', I would agree that beyond 50 ranks it simply looses its meaning.




Absolutely. At that point we have to go beyond knowledge. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Judging from the difficulty tables in the DMG it seems to me that the effects of skills increase at an exponential rate with each point added and this of course becomes particularly pronounced at higher rank levels. Well, perhaps the effects are not exponential - I have not mathematically analysed them   , but they definitely have increasing returns to scale.




What do (any of) you think of the Epic Level Handbooks extension of the Skill Tables?


----------



## Roman (Nov 8, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> What do (any of) you think of the Epic Level Handbooks extension of the Skill Tables?




Hmm, I have mixed feelings about that. I am somewhat resistant to allow skills to go into the mystical realm - I feel that is the preserve of the supernatural. Of course, such criticism would not apply to deities or other higher beings, as they are by definition supernatural.


----------



## Alzrius (Nov 8, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> What do (any of) you think of the Epic Level Handbooks extension of the Skill Tables?




Personally, I like them quite a bit. Opposite of Roman, I find it very fitting that at Epic levels there are things characters can do simply because they're "just that good". For example, having a character who can meet the DC 60 Balance check to run across water seems fitting because, in my mind, you're eventually going to meet, in a fantasy game, characters who can do fantastic things (in certain areas) without having to rely on magic for it. Did Li Mu Bai in _Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon_ seem like he was using a supernatural ability to be able to float through the air as he did? Would he then no longer be as impressive if you put him in an anti-magic field? 

This seems to be rather close to the heart of the IH, in my opinion. Gods are beings who can do incredible things, and they don't necessarily need magic to do them. A god is still a supreme being, anti-magic field or no. Having epic skill checks that can let you perform fantastic maneuvers seems like an extension of this.

As an aside, I think the DC limit for Knowledge checks should be 60, not 50, for two reasons. 1) As someone pointed out, you can hit a DC 50 by 20th level. That alone means that that DC isn't Epic. It's high, and very impressive, but its still something you can do in the limits of the 1-20 level range. 2) DC 60 is a point of note for a lot of the extended skill checks in the ELH. Having that be the same in the IH creates a stronger sense of compatibility (which would be nice), making it easier for DMs who want to use both to any degree.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Nov 8, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> What do (any of) you think of the Epic Level Handbooks extension of the Skill Tables?




I think that it is, quite possibly, the best part of the entire Epic Level Handbook.  I love to see the scaling, and going to the 'next level' beyond whatever we can do/easily imagine fits my idea of epic levels perfectly.

I would be disappointed to see a fundamental change to the idea of epic skill checks, though modifying the particular DCs wouldn't neccessarily be a bad thing.


----------



## Yair (Nov 8, 2003)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I think that it is, quite possibly, the best part of the entire Epic Level Handbook.  I love to see the scaling, and going to the 'next level' beyond whatever we can do/easily imagine fits my idea of epic levels perfectly.
> 
> I would be disappointed to see a fundamental change to the idea of epic skill checks, though modifying the particular DCs wouldn't neccessarily be a bad thing.



I'll second that.


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Nov 8, 2003)

Greetings, O Great Krusty One! Some things I would love to know:

- What is Lucifer`s Divine Status?

-Same about Lilith, I hope she is a Perversive Deity, maybe even a bit like Slaanesh?

-What other interesting Mythological Beings are in IH that you can reveal?

- I am interested in your Templates for mortals before Hero-Deity( wasn`t Prophet one of them?) What are their CR modifiers? How similar they are to FR Chosen? 

-Finally do you have something like a Divine Code of Conduct( for example, in what cases Gods can send Avatars or even interfere themselves with mortal affairs without starting Divine War or angering Pantheon Leader)?

-And Good luck with your work! I hope I will see it in my lifetime!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 8, 2003)

Hi Roman mate! 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Hmm, I have mixed feelings about that. I am somewhat resistant to allow skills to go into the mystical realm - I feel that is the preserve of the supernatural. Of course, such criticism would not apply to deities or other higher beings, as they are by definition supernatural.




Many of the skills become wholly redundant if they don't eventually extend into the supernatural, and even though it can initially seem incongruous; feats already encoach upon the supernatural long before skills ever will.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 8, 2003)

Hi Alzrius matey! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Personally, I like them quite a bit. Opposite of Roman, I find it very fitting that at Epic levels there are things characters can do simply because they're "just that good".




I think creating epic levels without incorporating the supernatural really puts non spellcasting classes at far too much of a disadvantage.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> For example, having a character who can meet the DC 60 Balance check to run across water seems fitting because, in my mind, you're eventually going to meet, in a fantasy game, characters who can do fantastic things (in certain areas) without having to rely on magic for it. Did Li Mu Bai in _Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon_ seem like he was using a supernatural ability to be able to float through the air as he did? Would he then no longer be as impressive if you put him in an anti-magic field?




The problem with the Epic Skills for me was that to walk on branches Li Mu Bai would have needed to be upwards of 50th-level which didn't really seem feasible.

Personally I see things like this working much better as epic feats to be honest.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> This seems to be rather close to the heart of the IH, in my opinion. Gods are beings who can do incredible things, and they don't necessarily need magic to do them. A god is still a supreme being, anti-magic field or no. Having epic skill checks that can let you perform fantastic maneuvers seems like an extension of this.




One way I like to apply EX or SU abilities for deities is on an internal and external manner. So internal abilities are almost always EX etc.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> As an aside, I think the DC limit for Knowledge checks should be 60, not 50, for two reasons. 1) As someone pointed out, you can hit a DC 50 by 20th level. That alone means that that DC isn't Epic. It's high, and very impressive, but its still something you can do in the limits of the 1-20 level range. 2) DC 60 is a point of note for a lot of the extended skill checks in the ELH. Having that be the same in the IH creates a stronger sense of compatibility (which would be nice), making it easier for DMs who want to use both to any degree.




Interesting points, I'll bear them in mind. Thanks for the feedback mate.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 8, 2003)

Hi CRGreathouse and Yair mateys! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I think that it is, quite possibly, the best part of the entire Epic Level Handbook.  I love to see the scaling, and going to the 'next level' beyond whatever we can do/easily imagine fits my idea of epic levels perfectly.
> 
> I would be disappointed to see a fundamental change to the idea of epic skill checks, though modifying the particular DCs wouldn't neccessarily be a bad thing.




Noted. Appreciate the feedback guys.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 8, 2003)

Melkor said:
			
		

> Greetings, O Great Krusty One! Some things I would love to know:




Hi Melkor mate, always nice to hear from you. 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> - What is Lucifer`s Divine Status?




Intermediate God.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> -Same about Lilith, I hope she is a Perversive Deity, maybe even a bit like Slaanesh?




Well I don't want to encroach upon Book of Erotic Fantasy territory dude.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> -What other interesting Mythological Beings are in IH that you can reveal?




I don't want to reveal any. I am looking towards beings who are not generally tied to a pantheon, so that will probably colour my final choices. Surtur is one whose in there, but that may change.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> - I am interested in your Templates for mortals before Hero-Deity (wasn`t Prophet one of them?) What are their CR modifiers? How similar they are to FR Chosen?




Disciples will be like 'Chosen of' from FR.

Prophets are more like 'Champions of'.

I'm not revealling the CRs.  



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> -Finally do you have something like a Divine Code of Conduct (for example, in what cases Gods can send Avatars or even interfere themselves with mortal affairs without starting Divine War or angering Pantheon Leader)?




Yes I have all this handled, and if I do say so myself its bloody brilliant, one of the best bits of the book I have done.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> -And Good luck with your work!




Thanks mate! 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> I hope I will see it in my lifetime!




Oi! Cheeky monkey!


----------



## Roman (Nov 8, 2003)

Seems I am 'outvoted' on the epic skills, oh well. In any case, U_K, when do you expect WotC will make the Epic Handbook and Deities & Demigods OGL? Do you foresee the possibility that they will not do so at all?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 9, 2003)

Hi Roman mate! 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Seems I am 'outvoted' on the epic skills, oh well.




But do you not see how skills would become utterly pointless at epic levels, if they didn't become supernatural!?



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> In any case, U_K, when do you expect WotC will make the Epic Handbook and Deities & Demigods OGL? Do you foresee the possibility that they will not do so at all?




At this point I don't care. I think I can go ahead without either, I'll just have to be circumspect with regards epic feats. I just need two-three weeks working on this stuff without distraction (notably v4) and I'll have it ready.


----------



## Leopold (Nov 9, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> . I just need two-three weeks working on this stuff without distraction (notably v4) and I'll have it ready.


----------



## Necropolis (Nov 9, 2003)

*Hi again*

Hi Again

I didn't posted here for some time but don't forget that i forgot about you and your great book   

Anyway any news on the new website ? when it will be online ?

Any news on when you will release the book ?

Any teasers or something till the book will be out ?

Thanks


----------



## Gez (Nov 9, 2003)

Hello Craig,



			
				Krusty said:
			
		

> What do (any of) you think of the Epic Level Handbooks extension of the Skill Tables?




The best part of the book, probably. I know some people object to non-spellcasters eventually gaining supernatural powers, but that seems only logical when you finally accept that the world is a world where magic exist. The rules don't suppose magic is an anomaly or something that should not exist. (And the few times when they try to go this road, they create the ugliest, brokennest stuff ever; like the Forsaker class.)

Maybe you don't know how to pronounce "hoolabooboola" the exact right way to shape a _fly_ spell, but that don't prevent you from having supernatural capacities. And I would say that, given the number of magic item the character has used or carried, the number of magical fields he's been in, and the number of spells that have targetted him or included him in his area of effect; the mere argument of "but they're not spellcasters, they should have nothing to do with magic" simply don't hold.

In fact, by simple personal experience, they probably know far more about magic than a first-level wizard.



Incidentally, I'm working on a "BAB-based" magic system. It's not called BAB but MM for Magical Might, but it's the same principle. I think I'll post a thread as soon as I've polished the thing a bit.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 10, 2003)

Hey Leopold mate! 



			
				Leopold said:
			
		

>




Appreciate the confidence dude!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 10, 2003)

Necropolis said:
			
		

> Hi Again




Hey Necropolis mate! 



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> I didn't posted here for some time but don't forget that i forgot about you and your great book




Thanks mate! Its okay not to post, sometimes I think its a little silly having so much discussion on a book that isn't finished yet, but I am glad people are so interested in it.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> Anyway any news on the new website ? when it will be online ?




Working on that means I am not working on something else. 

The main annoyance is that the whole website issue just falls on the wrong side of "I don't know what I'm doing." I'm sure its very simple when you know what you are doing but at this point its a somewhat daunting prospect.



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> Any news on when you will release the book ?




...because I haven't got my fingers burnt enough answering that question in the past!   



			
				Necropolis said:
			
		

> Any teasers or something till the book will be out ?
> 
> Thanks




I don't want to really release any teasers until I have the book virtually completed.

Once I have the first pdf finished I can concentrate on getting a website and teasers and all that side of things.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 10, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> Hello Craig,




Bonsoir mon ami! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> The best part of the book, probably. I know some people object to non-spellcasters eventually gaining supernatural powers, but that seems only logical when you finally accept that the world is a world where magic exist. The rules don't suppose magic is an anomaly or something that should not exist. (And the few times when they try to go this road, they create the ugliest, brokennest stuff ever; like the Forsaker class.)
> 
> Maybe you don't know how to pronounce "hoolabooboola" the exact right way to shape a _fly_ spell, but that don't prevent you from having supernatural capacities. And I would say that, given the number of magic item the character has used or carried, the number of magical fields he's been in, and the number of spells that have targetted him or included him in his area of effect; the mere argument of "but they're not spellcasters, they should have nothing to do with magic" simply don't hold.
> 
> In fact, by simple personal experience, they probably know far more about magic than a first-level wizard.




Not sure I concur with this last statement, but I agree about supernatural abilities.



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> Incidentally, I'm working on a "BAB-based" magic system. It's not called BAB but MM for Magical Might, but it's the same principle. I think I'll post a thread as soon as I've polished the thing a bit.




Sounds interesting.


----------



## Voadam (Nov 10, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Roman mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I don't have the ELH but the examples I've seen (either climb or balance on a cloud) seemed a bit silly.

Feats always seemed a better arena for supernatural effects than skills (using a supernatural cloud running feat that lets you make climb or balance skill checks to do so seems a better path to generating the effect in D&D).

Some skills will always be useful to max because they are opposed and you go against opponents who can be your equal.

Skills should be applicable to nonmagical epic games as well as to the default fantasy D&D ones, a sci-fi game could get into epic level skills as well so if you include supernatural effects from skills they should at least be labeled as supernatural effects so that nonmagical d20 users can know which effects are just really good uses of skills, and which are only appropriate for magic worlds.


----------



## Chosen01 (Nov 11, 2003)

*Immortals Website*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Quote: Originally Posted by *Necropolis*
> _Anyway any news on the new website ? when it will be online ?_​Working on that means I am not working on something else.
> 
> The main annoyance is that the whole website issue just falls on the wrong side of "I don't know what I'm doing." I'm sure its very simple when you know what you are doing but at this point its a somewhat daunting prospect.



Maybe you can ask Dicefreaks to be the temporary site of the IH. I'm sure they'll help you out.


----------



## Gez (Nov 11, 2003)

Hello,



			
				Upper Krust said:
			
		

> Sounds interesting.




You can look at it now. Well, most of it, anyway.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 11, 2003)

Hiya mate !



			
				Voadam said:
			
		

> Skills should be applicable to nonmagical epic games as well as to the default fantasy D&D ones




Isn't the term non-magical epic a contradiction of sorts?

An epic game is inherantly 'larger than life'. Not necessarily requiring the supernatural specifically, but certainly some sort of surrogate 'supernaturalism'.

Or can you think of something 'epic' that doesn't encroach upon things we don't understand?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 11, 2003)

Hi Chosen01 mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Maybe you can ask Dicefreaks to be the temporary site of the IH. I'm sure they'll help you out.




They already offered sometime ago, and I may still take them up on the offer in a temporary capacity, but I want to have substantial enough material to warrant the intrusion upon their great site.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 11, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> Hello,




Hiya mate! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> You can look at it now. Well, most of it, anyway.




Yeah I scanned over it earlier.

If I get time to study it in detail I will be sure and post some comments.


----------



## Gez (Nov 11, 2003)

Regarding epic and supernaturalism.

An average commoner has 2 hit points, and saves at +0.

An average non-elite 20th-level fighter (I know the concept of non-elite 20th-level character is weird, but anyway) has 175 hit points and saves at +15 or +7.

An average PC fighter at 20th-level will have well over 250 hit points and all saves at at least +10, between stat-boosting items and cloak of resistance.

Of course, the hit point system is abstract. It represents also your capacity to dodge, yadda-yadda, needless to debate about that.

But don't you think that, whatever it represents, the fact that by mere virtue of being close to epic levels, you have a hundred times as much HP as someone with the same genetic baggage as you is bordering supernatural?

I could also speak about a barbarian's damage reduction, and his impressive rages. +6 to Strength ? That's huge.

Or about the rogue's special capacities. Improved Evasion by itself is seemingly magical. There's a big fireball in the room, and you are totally unscathed? Even though you didn't exited the blast area?

To say nothing about the monk...

Wether you wish it or no, it's a fantasy game involving fantasy hero that do fantasy things. Even those who don't use this reduced subset of magic that is casting spells have gradual access to supernatural might.

It has frequently been recommended than in a low-magic setting, you limit character levels to 10, and possibly force spellcasters to multiclass.

In a no-magic setting, you should limit character levels to 5, and remove spellcasters entirely.

D&D is built in a way that tie the level of magic with the level of characters. If you don't want that, play d20 Modern.


----------



## Planesdragon (Nov 12, 2003)

*non-Magical Epic & Epic Skills*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Or can you think of something 'epic' that doesn't encroach upon things we don't understand?



  Oh, sure:

Fighters so skilled they can slice rocks with a single blow
Archers so accurate they can split arrows, regularly
Runners who can actually outpace a horse.
Theives who can open locks despite the worst of conditions
Men so charismatic they lead whole continents to war
Rangers who can follow tracks with an _almost_ supernatural cunning.
  All of these save the first, IMO, can be the result of having 21st+ level ability; some are even imaginable or historical fact here on Earth.

  For supernatural Epic skills, why not simply have new skills that cannot be bought until Epic Level, that are all semi-magical?  I.e., instead of Balance having any DC higher than 40 or so, a new skill called "Epic Balance" could be used.


----------



## Gez (Nov 12, 2003)

> For supernatural Epic skills, why not simply have new skills that cannot be bought until Epic Level, that are all semi-magical? I.e., instead of Balance having any DC higher than 40 or so, a new skill called "Epic Balance" could be used.




That would be a bit clunky. From a design point of view, I'm already upset with the plethora of Epic This feats who are merely an improved version of another feat.

Epic skills?

By disconnection the regular skill and its epic variant, you open the doors to all sorts of weird stuff. Like a rogue 27, with 30 ranks in Epic Balance and 5 in Mundane Balance. As a result, he would have an easier way walking on clouds than walking on a tightrope.

To prevent this, you may tie Epic Skills with Mundane Skills. Your rank in an Epic Skill cannot be greater than in a mundane skill. Congratulations, you're just complicating the game by introducing new weird and unecessary rules.


If you really think it is possible to be Level 25+ and still totally mundane, absolutely free of the slightiest hint at anything vaguely supernatural, here's how you could do it: 

Mark skill uses as Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-Like. Then, feats or class abilities would unlock the Su and Sp uses for the skills; in the same way Animal Empathy is a use of Handle Animals that require a class ability.


----------



## Planesdragon (Nov 12, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> That would be a bit clunky. From a design point of view, I'm already upset with the plethora of Epic This feats who are merely an improved version of another feat.



 Acutally, I think that Epic Feats which merely increase a statistic are the best of the Epic Feats.  D&D/d20/Prometheus as it is breaks down at high levels due to "ability creep."



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> By disconnection the regular skill and its epic variant, you open the doors to all sorts of weird stuff. Like a rogue 27, with 30 ranks in Epic Balance and 5 in Mundane Balance. As a result, he would have an easier way walking on clouds than walking on a tightrope.



 Easy fix for that: require X ranks of a non-Epic feat as an additional prerequisite.



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> Congratulations, you're just complicating the game by introducing new weird and unecessary rules.



 Aren't we discussing new rules for Epic Play?  If the new addition makes the Epic Game easier / more fun to play, then I don't think that it's unnecessary.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Nov 12, 2003)

Planesdragon said:
			
		

> Aren't we discussing new rules for Epic Play?  If the new addition makes the Epic Game easier / more fun to play, then I don't think that it's unnecessary.




I think that breaking it into two skills, one requiring ranks in the other for each task, is time-consuming and less rewarding than the alternative.  What about the rogue 'I'm the master of balance' who took Acrobatic (or whatever the Balance 2/2 is) and Skill Focus (Balance)?

No, I like the system the way it is and would be severely disappointed if it worked any other way.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 12, 2003)

Hi Planesdragon mate! 



			
				Planesdragon said:
			
		

> Oh, sure:
> 
> Fighters so skilled they can slice rocks with a single blow
> Archers so accurate they can split arrows, regularly
> ...




Aside from runners who could outpace a horse, none of the above grabs me as especially epic at all. All the rest can be achieved in the real world, let alone a mundane fantasy world (splitting arrows regularly might be pushing things though). 



			
				Planesdragon said:
			
		

> For supernatural Epic skills, why not simply have new skills that cannot be bought until Epic Level, that are all semi-magical?  I.e., instead of Balance having any DC higher than 40 or so, a new skill called "Epic Balance" could be used.




It all seems a bit unnecessary. I just can't fathom anyone wanting to play an epic levels campaign and keep the proceedings mundane. I mean its anathema to what epic is all about.

If you want to run a low-magic grim and gritty campaign then there will be no need (and likely few candidates) for epic levels.

Epic campaigns should mean something different, not simply bigger numbers, otherwise you are just fooling yourself.

Likewise I hope to show that Immortals campaigns mean something different again. For too long people have just went about roleplaying gods without actually roleplaying a god...by that I mean if you asked them what it meant they would probably say "Well I'm 60th-level and have all these cool powers and items". Theres nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but to me they are missing out on the crux of what roleplaying a god is all about.

So epic campaigns must offer something different, otherwise they are not epic, just regular.

Just as Immortal campaigns must offer something different, otherwise you are not really roleplaying a deity, but simply an epic character.


----------



## historian (Nov 12, 2003)

Thus spake Krust




> Epic campaigns should mean something different, not simply bigger numbers, otherwise you are just fooling yourself.
> 
> Likewise I hope to show that Immortals campaigns mean something different again. For too long people have just went about roleplaying gods without actually roleplaying a god...by that I mean if you asked them what it meant they would probably say "Well I'm 60th-level and have all these cool powers and items". Theres nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but to me they are missing out on the crux of what roleplaying a god is all about.
> 
> ...





Man Krust, that was downright inspirational (applause)!


----------



## Roman (Nov 13, 2003)

Planesdragon said:
			
		

> Oh, sure:
> 
> Fighters so skilled they can slice rocks with a single blow
> Archers so accurate they can split arrows, regularly
> ...




Good list! These are things that are bordering on impossibility for ordinary humans, but they do not go so far as to require a supernatural explanation - they can be construed as amazing, almost unbelievable, competence on the part of characters.

Walking on clouds, on the other hand, is just so far out there that I simply cannot suspend my disbelief without a supernatural explanation for it. Same goes for direct reading of thoughts on a high sense motive check.

I do not think that in order to be epic, you have to break all the rules of physics, etc. and not even justify it with a supernatural explanation. That is not what defines an epic game in my eyes. For me, an epic game implies that the heroes are still mortal and while high above their ordinary brehten they still cannot break the limits of physics without supernatural aid. These still human heroes struggle against the odds to accomplish great deeds that will inspire generations of people after them to follow their example. That is what epic means to me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I would expect immortal and divine games to be different. Divinite is in its very nature supernatural, so the above limitations do not apply.

Of course, everyone will has their own idea of what epic means and the above is merely my take on the matter.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 13, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Man Krust, that was downright inspirational (applause)!




Appreciate the love dude!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 13, 2003)

Hi Roman mate! 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Good list! These are things that are bordering on impossibility for ordinary humans, but they do not go so far as to require a supernatural explanation - they can be construed as amazing, almost unbelievable, competence on the part of characters.




I would have expected all the above from _mere_ high-level characters...even a Monk will be outrunning a horse by 20th-level.

So virtually nothing in that list said 'epic' to me.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Walking on clouds, on the other hand, is just so far out there that I simply cannot suspend my disbelief without a supernatural explanation for it. Same goes for direct reading of thoughts on a high sense motive check.
> 
> I do not think that in order to be epic, you have to break all the rules of physics, etc. and not even justify it with a supernatural explanation. That is not what defines an epic game in my eyes. For me, an epic game implies that the heroes are still mortal and while high above their ordinary brehten they still cannot break the limits of physics without supernatural aid. These still human heroes struggle against the odds to accomplish great deeds that will inspire generations of people after them to follow their example. That is what epic means to me.




Well certainly you are entitled to your opinion mate, but for me, everything you have said above I would expect in a standard campaign...in fact you have pretty much defined the standard campaign model "Mortal heroes struggling against the odds to accomplish great deeds."



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Now, don't get me wrong, I would expect immortal and divine games to be different. Divinite is in its very nature supernatural, so the above limitations do not apply.
> 
> Of course, everyone will has their own idea of what epic means and the above is merely my take on the matter.




I'm confused as to the epic content of your above ideas?   

Epic must mean something different, otherwise it means nothing.


----------



## DeadlyUematsu (Nov 13, 2003)

Now this perked my interest...

UK, what do you think is Epic then?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 13, 2003)

Hi there Deadly Uematsu! 



			
				DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> Now this perked my interest...
> 
> UK, what do you think is Epic then?




Clearly, epic must refer to something beyond the normal and natural.

Thats easy to gauge with regards the real world, but campaign worlds are somewhat more subjective.

I would suggest that something becomes epic if you previously wouldn't have believed it possible.

Between levels one to twenty characters are capable of truly astounding accomplishments. So it has to be something that even a high-level character would have thought impossible.

This could be as simple as making the supernatural natural; or merely escalating scale and scope to a bewildering degree. Or indeed it could be as complex as making the inconceivable become reality.


----------



## Gez (Nov 14, 2003)

Epic is becoming _NINJA!_

Because ninja are awesome!

They have real ultimate power!!!


(If you don't know the joke yet, go browse http://www.realultimatepower.net/ )


----------



## CRGreathouse (Nov 14, 2003)

I just got the Draconomicon (a great book, btw), and looking through I noticed that they reprinted 9 epic feats.  (Spellcasting Harrier, interestingly enough, was modified in its 3.5 update -- it's more powerful now.)

I wonder if this means a higher or lower chance of putting more epic feats in the SRD?

U_K -- Look for an email from me!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 15, 2003)

Hi all! 

Apologies for the slower than usual response, I only had limited time on the computer yesterday and ENWorld wouldn't let me post at all during it. Added to that I am doubly knackered due to the first serious weights training I have undertaken in a month (yesterday morning) and I only got four hours sleep last night after getting locked out of the house by accident. My muscles are in total agony (which is a good thing) and I am incredibly tired...but the Krust shall ever prevail. 

Hey Gez matey! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> Epic is becoming _NINJA!_
> 
> Because ninja are awesome!
> 
> ...




Very good. 

I wonder how the ninjas would fare against Mr T from the A-team though!? A true clash of the titans. 


By the way for all you comics fans I have developed an iron clad way of converting Marvel* Super-Heroes and Villains to 3.5 D&D.

*Or indeed DC characters, provided they have been converted to the original Marvel Super-Heroes RPG stats.

In fact its so good I was considering approaching Marvel (in the near future) and asking them if I could release a supplement for the Immortals Handbook which was akin to a profile on all their top Cosmic beings. Sort of like a Cosmic Bestiary, Marvel style.

What do you any of you think of the idea?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 15, 2003)

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I just got the Draconomicon (a great book, btw), and looking through I noticed that they reprinted 9 epic feats.  (Spellcasting Harrier, interestingly enough, was modified in its 3.5 update -- it's more powerful now.)
> 
> I wonder if this means a higher or lower chance of putting more epic feats in the SRD?




At this juncture I (virtually) don't really need the extra* epic material to release the IH.

*The epic material not already included in the 3.5 DMG.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> U_K -- Look for an email from me!




I got your email mate, thanks very much for the heads up. I may have a reply for you tomorrow morning inquiring about a few specific points on the matter at hand.


----------



## historian (Nov 15, 2003)

Howdy Krust!



> By the way for all you comics fans I have developed an iron clad way of converting Marvel* Super-Heroes and Villains to 3.5 D&D.
> 
> *Or indeed DC characters, provided they have been converted to the original Marvel Super-Heroes RPG stats.





SWEET!  




> In fact its so good I was considering approaching Marvel (in the near future) and asking them if I could release a supplement for the Immortals Handbook which was akin to a profile on all their top Cosmic beings. Sort of like a Cosmic Bestiary, Marvel style.
> 
> What do you any of you think of the idea?





I think it's a great idea (obviously).  Where do you put Walker, Eternity, Korvac, Living Trbunal?  

I've got a couple more questions I'll post when I have a few more minutes.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 15, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hi historian matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> SWEET!




I thought you and a few others (such as Bjorn) would really like the idea.

For those that don't really follow comics think of this as a supplementary batch of, primarily, unique epic/immortal beings (85% unique/15% generic I would venture at a glance).

So far I have a tentative list of 59*, of which I only (so far) have MSH RPG stats for 42. I'll email a few people on some websites to see what I can come up with.

*Some of which are dual entities (Eternity/Infinity for example); therein counted as a single entry.

I was thinking about 64 would be a good number.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I think it's a great idea (obviously).  Where do you put Walker,




DOH! I forgot all about Walker, hes just such a peripheral cosmic character. I must confess I haven't seen his MSH RPG stats either yet though.

Walker makes 60. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Eternity,




Well its been very interesting research. Using Odin as the central figure around which everything revolves Eternity actually worked out as a High One.

Which indirectly makes sense, but I won't go into why at this juncture.

Incidently Thor actually worked out as a Quasi-deity* which shows the deference between the most powerful Asgardian and the second most powerful Asgardian. Its also indicative of 

*Though Mjolnir is incredibly powerful, so hes somewhat more powerful than it initially sounds.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Korvac,




Korvac worked out as a very powerful Elder God.

Korvac is a very interesting character and if you can track it down I would wholeheartedly recommend the "What If" #32 ('What if the Avengers had become pawns of KORVAC') comic. 

http://www.bullcitycomics.com/bcc/prod.asp?CatID=6&ProdID=1468492

In that comic you can really see Korvac laying the immortal smackdown.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Living Tribunal?




Technically (stats wise) worked out as a High One but its clear 'he' is much more powerful than Eternity so he would be a Time Lord. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I've got a couple more questions I'll post when I have a few more minutes.




Okay mate! 

If you can think of any obscure cosmic entities let me know.

Incidently I think Galactus ended up about 14th from the top (on the current tentative list).


----------



## historian (Nov 16, 2003)

Hello Krust!



> I thought you and a few others (such as Bjorn) would really like the idea.





You bet I do.




> So far I have a tentative list of 59*, of which I only (so far) have MSH RPG stats for 42. I'll email a few people on some websites to see what I can come up with.
> 
> *Some of which are dual entities (Eternity/Infinity for example); therein counted as a single entry.
> 
> I was thinking about 64 would be a good number.





Sounds like a good number to me.  




> DOH! I forgot all about Walker, hes just such a peripheral cosmic character. I must confess I haven't seen his MSH RPG stats either yet though.
> 
> Walker makes 60.





As in like 60 out of 64 in terms of power (with 64 being the highest)?  

I've never seen MSH RPG stats for Walker either, but I suspect he would rate out at about Class 5000 across every attribute and power.




> Korvac worked out as a very powerful Elder God.
> 
> Korvac is a very interesting character and if you can track it down I would wholeheartedly recommend the "What If" #32 ('What if the Avengers had become pawns of KORVAC') comic.
> 
> ...





Great stuff, I seem to recall that the Living Tribunal had to "split" that particular universe off from the rest of the Mulitiverse because Korvac had become too powerful.  My personal favorite What If? was What If Wolverine became Lord of the Vampires?, I highly recommend it.




> If you can think of any obscure cosmic entities let me know.





Abraxus (sp.) is one that probably wasn't ever statted by Marvel, and seems on about the level of Eternity/Infinity - Death/Oblivion (and is not coincidentally apparently the greater evil that Galactus' presence squelches).  The Celestial Exitar the Exterminator was, IMO, never adequately statted.  The True Beyonders also were left out I think.

When I remember my other two questions I'll fire away.  

Thanks, Dude.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 16, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> You bet I do.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sounds like a good number to me.




I did a bit more research and I now have more than 70 possibles.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> As in like 60 out of 64 in terms of power (with 64 being the highest)?




No I don't have stats for Walker yet so I cannot determine his position.

On the list I have at the moment I think the Watchers are last (of those cosmic beings I have stats for); though the Elders of the Universe are tricky to rate properly since their stats are poor but they gain every power of a certain level (generally well beyond their status).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I've never seen MSH RPG stats for Walker either, but I suspect he would rate out at about Class 5000 across every attribute and power.




Not necessarily, though after he drained the souls of every being in his galaxy I would suspect he would be close to that level of power.

I would anticipate Walker was the equivalent of an Overgod (before the soul draining) and a First One afterwards.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Great stuff, I seem to recall that the Living Tribunal had to "split" that particular universe off from the rest of the Mulitiverse because Korvac had become too powerful.




Thats right! 

I love the line at the end where the Watcher says: "...and because of one mans dream the number of alternate universes in the multiverse shall always be one less than infinite."



			
				historian said:
			
		

> My personal favorite What If? was What If Wolverine became Lord of the Vampires?, I highly recommend it.




I haven't seen that one yet, but I do have a 'What If' that indirectly features Wolverine: Lord of Vampires, called "What if the Watcher saved the Universe."

Theres a good What If featuring a fight between Wolverine and Hulk, with a great ending (I won't spoil it for you).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Abraxus (sp.) is one that probably wasn't ever statted by Marvel,




Hopefully some fan somewhere has done stats for him. I ordered the whole Death of Glactus/Abraxas storyline months ago but it hasn't come through yet.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> and seems on about the level of Eternity/Infinity - Death/Oblivion (and is not coincidentally apparently the greater evil that Galactus' presence squelches).




I need to get those issues to get the full gist of what Abraxas is.

Reading between the lines Abraxas probably doesn't gain his full power/incarnation until he has slain the Galactus of every alternate universe...?



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The Celestial Exitar the Exterminator was, IMO, never adequately statted.  The True Beyonders also were left out I think.




Yeah I am aware of both the above.

I don't think Exitar would be much beyond the other Celestials.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> When I remember my other two questions I'll fire away.
> 
> Thanks, Dude.




Okay.


----------



## historian (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for the reply Krust!




> I did a bit more research and I now have more than 70 possibles.





Heh heh, that should more than cover it, and give the gamer room to extrapolate in the event there could be some obscure cosmic power left out (though I doubt you'll 'miss' anything, some things will probably need to be excluded) or if someone wants to create their own.  




> On the list I have at the moment I think the Watchers are last (of those cosmic beings I have stats for); though the Elders of the Universe are tricky to rate properly since their stats are poor but they gain every power of a certain level (generally well beyond their status).





Agreed 100%, and if I'm remembering correctly, some Elders (both in comic portrayals and MSH RPG stats) were seemingly substantially more powerful than others.




> I ordered the whole Death of Glactus/Abraxas storyline months ago but it hasn't come through yet.  I need to get those issues to get the full gist of what Abraxas is.  Reading between the lines Abraxas probably doesn't gain his full power/incarnation until he has slain the Galactus of every alternate universe...?





Makes sense to me.




> I love the line at the end where the Watcher says: "...and because of one mans dream the number of alternate universes in the multiverse shall always be one less than infinite."





 
Korvac was (is) one tough cookie, I would have loved to have seen him cross paths with one of the stronger versions of the Magus.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Nov 17, 2003)

Hmm..speaking of Abraxas, does the Krust have any thoughts on the Gnostic deity of the same name?


----------



## Alzrius (Nov 17, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> By the way for all you comics fans I have developed an iron clad way of converting Marvel* Super-Heroes and Villains to 3.5 D&D.
> 
> *Or indeed DC characters, provided they have been converted to the original Marvel Super-Heroes RPG stats.
> 
> ...




Hrm...I'm gonna have to think about that one...gee...DO IT!! That'd be so frickin' awesome!!

Just out of curiosity, this is using the Marvel RPG as a basis first right (which Marvel RPG? Old or new)? Either way we probably won't be seeing Krona, from the new JLA*Avengers saga, which Im counting the days to the next part of.

Other than that, I'd look forward to seeing, as a sampling, Galactus, Eternity/Infinity, The Living Tribunal, Atlez (though he is dead now, so maybe Atleza), Mistress Death, The Watcher, Lord Chaos, Master Order, and several others that may or may not be considerd Cosmic depending on how you look at it (The In-Betweener, the Grand Master, etc.)

It'd be nice if you could get DC also, though I don't know as much about them.

Truth to tell, what I'd be realy tickled to see would be if you could do something for the briefly-created Amalgaverse, from back during the Marve vs DC debacle. I love crossovers, and that was the penultimate one. That's probably one heck of a pipe dream on my part though.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 17, 2003)

Hey historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply Krust!




No problem mate.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Heh heh, that should more than cover it, and give the gamer room to extrapolate in the event there could be some obscure cosmic power left out (though I doubt you'll 'miss' anything, some things will probably need to be excluded) or if someone wants to create their own.




Everytime I do a search on the internet I find new characters. Still the odds are that something is going to be missing.

Also some of the beings just don't have MSH RPG stats, its as simple as that. The only way for me to create the stats myself would be to own a substantial portion of the applicable issues.

For a number of entries I would simply take the most obvious or interesting example of a group. For example in detailing Odin there is no need to detail other skyfathers. 

Here is a list of the beings I don't currently have (original MSH RPG) stats for:

Abraxas
Walker
Eon
Entropy
Epoch
Kronos
Anomaly
Satannish (possibly similar to Mephisto?)
Cytorrak (I think if I find the stats for one mystic god I would have a fair appraisal of the rest)
Unimind
Desak (probably on a par with Odin*)
Majeston Zelia (probably on a par with Odin*)
Mangog (probably on a par with Odin*)
Millenius
Dromedan
Xorr 

*Odin has two incarnations of power; dependant on whether he is in Asgard or outside Asgard. Desak is probably akin to the former and Mangog the latter. While Zelia would have her own realm where she would be more powerful (called Narcissus)

I can probably make a fair appraisal of the Unimind; Desak; Majeston Zelia; Mangog and Dromedan. Also I may drop Millenius and Entropy altogether.

The rest I don't really know enough about.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Agreed 100%, and if I'm remembering correctly, some Elders (both in comic portrayals and MSH RPG stats) were seemingly substantially more powerful than others.
> 
> Yes, they are annoying to discern. The Gardener seems the most powerful followed by the Grandmaster.
> 
> ...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 17, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Hmm..speaking of Abraxas, does the Krust have any thoughts on the Gnostic deity of the same name?




Of course. 

I was actually considering including Abraxas in the IH long before I heard he was a Marvel super-villain; which was why I am interested in seeing how Marvel treated the idea.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 17, 2003)

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hrm...I'm gonna have to think about that one...gee...DO IT!! That'd be so frickin' awesome!!




I appreciate the support mate! 

...of course at this point the idea is nothing more than a pipe dream; albeit one with potential to interest Marvel. Since you would think they have nothing to lose...though that could just be willful optimism on my part?



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, this is using the Marvel RPG as a basis first right (which Marvel RPG? Old or new)?




The original (yellow box?) MSH RPG rules. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Either way we probably won't be seeing Krona, from the new JLA*Avengers saga,




True, he is seemingly capable of destroying a universe so hes pretty powerful.   

It will be interesting to see how he survived the Grandmasters multi-artifact augmented assault.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> which Im counting the days to the next part of.




Didn't I tell you that comic was amazing! Trust your uncle Krust. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Other than that, I'd look forward to seeing, as a sampling, Galactus, Eternity/Infinity, The Living Tribunal, Atlez (though he is dead now, so maybe Atleza),




Right enough, I forgot about Atleza. DOH! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Mistress Death, The Watcher, Lord Chaos, Master Order, and several others that may or may not be considerd Cosmic depending on how you look at it (The In-Betweener, the Grand Master, etc.)




I don't have the time to 'work up' the stats at the moment, and you have mentioned 10% of the (proposed) supplement right there. Its unlikely I would post up such a chunk, you might get one or two; perhaps the In-Betweener and Galactus. But don't go holding your breath for these. I still have important IH business to take care of. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> It'd be nice if you could get DC also, though I don't know as much about them.




I virtually don't know anything about them, although I did come across a forum thread following a google search where people were arguing whether DC or Marvel had the toughest characters and some people started posting vast lists of powerful characters from both universes.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Truth to tell, what I'd be realy tickled to see would be if you could do something for the briefly-created Amalgaverse, from back during the Marve vs DC debacle. I love crossovers, and that was the penultimate one. That's probably one heck of a pipe dream on my part though.




I only have one issue of 'Thorion'; with Thanoseid and so forth.


----------



## historian (Nov 17, 2003)

Evening Krust!




> Here is a list of the beings I don't currently have (original MSH RPG) stats for:
> 
> Abraxas
> Walker
> ...





Most (if not all) of these folk were never covered in any official MSG RPG publication that I am aware of.   Were I you I wouldn't hesitate to strike out on my own though, as good as the MSH RPG stuff is, I found myself taking issue with the way certain beings were detailed (being in my mind either over or under -powered).  

In regards to the Elders:




> Yes, they are annoying to discern. The Gardener seems the most powerful followed by the Grandmaster.





Agreed, with Champion being the weakest (below Silver Surfer?) and the Runner being somewhere in the middle (and, I think, pretty clearly more powerful than the Surfer.  Don't have much of a read on the Possessor.




> I presume you mean Warlocks alter-ego?





Indeed, and not the techno-organic 'dad' from the Alpha Flight series.  For whatever reason I always had an easy time despising the Magus (what is it that they say, a good villain makes you hate him, while a bad one makes you love him?).  He was such a smack-talking punk, and had a creepy cosmic thing about him, but was clearly a more highly evolved extremely powerful version of Warlock, and thus a threat to end the adventuring careers of many of my favorite characters.  Conversely I always liked Korvac (I mean c'mon, the guy actually slew a true immortal w/o breaking a sweat), who was never really defeated and had an ironic humane quality about him despite that his apsirations and existence had gone far beyond anything remotely human.


Oh yeah, a couple of quick questions   

1.  Awhile back you were kind enough to divulge that Thanos w/the IG would clock in at around CR 13000.  I'm wondering, since you have changed the sidereal and eternal scaling, would this estimate change?

2.  Also due to a change in the sideral and eternal changes, has the supernal grouping changed substantially?

3.  Do you view any of these Marvel dudes as supernals or potential supernals (besides 'Heart of the Universe Thanos'  )?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 17, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Evening Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Most (if not all) of these folk were never covered in any official MSG RPG publication that I am aware of.




I still think there are stats for Mangog; Unimind and Kronos are out there somewhere, though I haven't seen them as yet.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Were I you I wouldn't hesitate to strike out on my own though, as good as the MSH RPG stuff is, I found myself taking issue with the way certain beings were detailed (being in my mind either over or under -powered).




Of course you want to be as close to the canon information as possible.

I would of course have to step in where there is conflicting canon information.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In regards to the Elders:
> 
> Agreed, with Champion being the weakest (below Silver Surfer?) and the Runner being somewhere in the middle (and, I think, pretty clearly more powerful than the Surfer.  Don't have much of a read on the Possessor.




I was really amazed how weak the Champion was, I mean hes a cosmic power who has been studying martial arts for a billion years you would think he would be half-decent.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Indeed, and not the techno-organic 'dad' from the Alpha Flight series.




I always thought he looked funky, though I never read any Alpha Flight so I am only familiar with the character via biographies.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> For whatever reason I always had an easy time despising the Magus (what is it that they say, a good villain makes you hate him, while a bad one makes you love him?).  He was such a smack-talking punk, and had a creepy cosmic thing about him, but was clearly a more highly evolved extremely powerful version of Warlock, and thus a threat to end the adventuring careers of many of my favorite characters.




The Infinity War series was pretty good, notable for the fact it was also the beginning of Thanos 'redemption' of sorts.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Conversely I always liked Korvac (I mean c'mon, the guy actually slew a true immortal w/o breaking a sweat),




Well it was only the Collector.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> who was never really defeated and had an ironic humane quality about him despite that his apsirations and existence had gone far beyond anything remotely human.




Korvac was an excellent character, a misguided villain that you could sympathise with.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, a couple of quick questions




Fire away! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 1.  Awhile back you were kind enough to divulge that Thanos w/the IG would clock in at around CR 13000.  I'm wondering, since you have changed the sidereal and eternal scaling, would this estimate change?




Anythings plausible. I still estimate its in the region of 10,000.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 2.  Also due to a change in the sideral and eternal changes, has the supernal grouping changed substantially?




Yes.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 3.  Do you view any of these Marvel dudes as supernals or potential supernals (besides 'Heart of the Universe Thanos'  )?




Well there I am still unsure as to the true nature of both the Infinites or the true Beyonders. So I may have to take a few liberties with them.


----------



## historian (Nov 17, 2003)

> Quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally Posted by historian
> 1. Awhile back you were kind enough to divulge that Thanos w/the IG would clock in at around CR 13000. I'm wondering, since you have changed the sidereal and eternal scaling, would this estimate change?
> ...




Excellent, substantially more powerful than Eternity, but (perhaps?) a notch under LT.




> Quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally Posted by historian
> 2. Also due to a change in the sideral and eternal changes, has the supernal grouping changed substantially?
> ...




I take it this means you've gone beyond 80 quindecillion!    Man, I would love to see the gift(s) that these guys get.


----------



## Alzrius (Nov 18, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> True, he is seemingly capable of destroying a universe so hes pretty powerful.




But nothing so powerful you couldn't make stats on him right? You are, after all, the Man when it comes to uber-epic characters/rules...that's the impression we've gotten so far, at any rate.  



> _I don't have the time to 'work up' the stats at the moment, and you have mentioned 10% of the (proposed) supplement right there. Its unlikely I would post up such a chunk, you might get one or two; perhaps the In-Betweener and Galactus. But don't go holding your breath for these. I still have important IH business to take care of. _




I didn't mean to sound like I expected any of these right now. I'm just rattling off who I think would be in a roster of Cosmic beings on Marvel. No pressure.



> _I virtually don't know anything about them, although I did come across a forum thread following a google search where people were arguing whether DC or Marvel had the toughest characters and some people started posting vast lists of powerful characters from both universes._




Marvel vs DC lives on!



> _I only have one issue of 'Thorion'; with Thanoseid and so forth._




There are, as I recall, four graphic novels about the Amalgaverse; each company did twelve Amalgam issues, and so each has two trade paperbacks of six. Check them out, they're really cool.



> _Of course you want to be as close to the canon information as possible.
> 
> I would of course have to step in where there is conflicting canon information._




Words to live by.



> _I was really amazed how weak the Champion was, I mean hes a cosmic power who has been studying martial arts for a billion years you would think he would be half-decent._




Judging from how well he fared against Thanos in The Thanos Quest, when Champion had the Infinity Gem of Power, he appears to follow the stereotype that he's rather inept at anything beyond direct conflict - even the slightest amount of trickery was enough to leave him floundering. It was great.


----------



## Gez (Nov 18, 2003)

Hello,

On the WotC boards (monster lair), someone calculated that a colossal dragon with Str 104 or more could lift an aircraft carrier and fly away with it (to drop it on the head of someone, for example).

Is there any flying creature of colossal size and 100+ Str ?


----------



## Anabstercorian (Nov 18, 2003)

I'm pretty sure that Superman might count as Colossal for purposes of determining encumbrance.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 18, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Excellent, substantially more powerful than Eternity, but (perhaps?) a notch under LT.




As far as you know...you guys love to grab at straws don't you! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I take it this means you've gone beyond 80 quindecillion!    Man, I would love to see the gift(s) that these guys get.




I'll probably try and rein some of those CRs in a bit.

Though there was one I was mucking about with last night with CR to the power of 216.  

You probably don't want to mess with those sort of gifts until you are properly initiated, trust me.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 18, 2003)

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> But nothing so powerful you couldn't make stats on him right?




Natch. 

...I probably have a generic monster or two more powerful than Krona. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> You are, after all, the Man when it comes to uber-epic characters/rules...that's the impression we've gotten so far, at any rate.




If indeed there is such a man then I am he. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I didn't mean to sound like I expected any of these right now. I'm just rattling off who I think would be in a roster of Cosmic beings on Marvel. No pressure.








			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Marvel vs DC lives on!




http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread/t-21729.html

Of course looking at the DC lists I wouldn't know who was cosmic and who was simply just 'powerful'...like Supes.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> There are, as I recall, four graphic novels about the Amalgaverse; each company did twelve Amalgam issues, and so each has two trade paperbacks of six. Check them out, they're really cool.




If I come across any I'll give them a butchers.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Words to live by.




Some of the very top end entities may need some explaining.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Judging from how well he fared against Thanos in The Thanos Quest, when Champion had the Infinity Gem of Power, he appears to follow the stereotype that he's rather inept at anything beyond direct conflict - even the slightest amount of trickery was enough to leave him floundering. It was great.




I was shocked he only had Fighting: UNearthly.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 18, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> Hello,




Hi Gez mate! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> On the WotC boards (monster lair), someone calculated that a colossal dragon with Str 104 or more could lift an aircraft carrier and fly away with it (to drop it on the head of someone, for example).




Seems correct.



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> Is there any flying creature of colossal size and 100+ Str ?




There are no epic monsters with 100+ strength (even after applying the Paragon Template to the Force Dragon I think you only have Str 93).

If you are asking whether there are monsters in the Immortals Handbook with 100+ strength then you should know me well enough not to need to ask.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Nov 18, 2003)

So, since I've got you around UK, when is the Immortal's Handbook due?  No offense but I don't feel the urge to look through 20 pages of posts to find if you said it.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 18, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that Superman might count as Colossal for purposes of determining encumbrance.




Superman should have in around Strength 125 if certain DC Universe sources are to be believed.

Though I think Supermans encumberance should only be medium.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 18, 2003)

Hi blackshirt5 mate! 



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> So, since I've got you around UK, when is the Immortal's Handbook due?




Before Christmas (fingers crossed).



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> No offense but I don't feel the urge to look through 20 pages of posts to find if you said it.




I know how you feel mate.

I apologise for not having the website issue sorted yet.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Nov 18, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi blackshirt5 mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 It's cool.  No worries, "mate".

And you can just call me blackshirt, I may be the 5th iteration of the blackshirt but I'm still, in the end, a black shirt.


----------



## historian (Nov 18, 2003)

Hello Krust!



> As far as you know...you guys love to grab at straws don't you!





I certainly do, it's fortunate that we all have access to one so gracious in accomodating curiosities.  





> I'll probably try and rein some of those CRs in a bit.
> 
> Though there was one I was mucking about with last night with CR to the power of 216.





Dude   -- what do you call that???


----------



## Dark Wolf 97 (Nov 18, 2003)

Hello,



> _Originally posted by Upper Krust_
> Before Christmas (fingers crossed).




That would make a nice Christmas present mate! (*hint hint*)  

A few people over at Dicefreaks statted out some DC heroes and villians a month or so ago. Pretty good, although I'm not sure Sup' had ove 100 STR. I'll hunt up a link to the page if you want me to, anyone. 

L8R!


----------



## Golem2176 (Nov 18, 2003)

Is the handbook out yet? If so where can I find it?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 19, 2003)

Hiya blackshirt mate! 



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> It's cool.  No worries, "mate".
> 
> And you can just call me blackshirt, I may be the 5th iteration of the blackshirt but I'm still, in the end, a black shirt.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 19, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I certainly do, it's fortunate that we all have access to one so gracious in accomodating curiosities.




Flattery will get you nowhere. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Dude   -- what do you call that???




...sir.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 19, 2003)

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hello,




Hey Dark Wolf mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> That would make a nice Christmas present mate! (*hint hint*)




For you and me both. 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> A few people over at Dicefreaks statted out some DC heroes and villians a month or so ago. Pretty good, although I'm not sure Sup' had ove 100 STR. I'll hunt up a link to the page if you want me to, anyone.




I think it was Kain (Darkwind) who came up with the stats. It would be interested to look over them again and see how they compare to my current conversion method based on MSH RPG stats...though I have to say I don't think they have totally done Supes justice in the MSH RPG stats I have seen.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 19, 2003)

Hi Golem! 



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> Is the handbook out yet? If so where can I find it?




Its not out yet (sorry for the organised confusion herein).   

Hopefully I can wrap things up before Christmas.

When its released (pdf format first) it should be available at places like:

www.rpgnow.com


----------



## Dark Wolf 97 (Nov 19, 2003)

Here it is:

DC heroes and villains at Dicefreaks 

Goodnight folks!


----------



## Gez (Nov 19, 2003)

Hi,



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> If you are asking whether there are monsters in the Immortals Handbook with 100+ strength then you should know me well enough not to need to ask.


----------



## Alzrius (Nov 19, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> There are no epic monsters with 100+ strength (even after applying the Paragon Template to the Force Dragon I think you only have Str 93).




Actually, that's not true, there is one.

Back in _Dragon_ 297, (which, for the record, is official. It was published by Paizo then but that makes no difference) they ran the Epic theme since the ELH was coming out around then.

One article, "Relics of Myth" detailed some real-world epic items (real items given D&D powers), including the Sphinx, a Colossal epic golem.

Epic indeed! This creature could slay pretty much any god I could think of. It's Strength score was 290 (compared to the strongest god in D&Dg, Thor, at STR 92). The thing was immune to all spell, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects. It had two slams at +326 melee, each for 24d10+140. All its saves were +82. It's AC was 120, not that that mattered much since it had DR 300/+30. It had 248d10 hit dice (which only came out to 1,240 hp), and could be advanced from 251-750. The Sphinx's CR? A nice round 100.

How would that match up with the bad boys of the IH U_K?


----------



## Gez (Nov 19, 2003)

Yeah, but it didn't fly!

(Although it could probably hurl our aircraft carrier as a projectile weapon.)


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 19, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Here it is:
> 
> DC heroes and villains at Dicefreaks
> 
> Goodnight folks!




Thanks for that dude. 

Looking over Kains interpretation of Superman I think he looks a bit weak given that he should be able to survive a point blank low-yield nuclear strike...I'll have to double check my nuclear missile damage stats.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 19, 2003)

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Actually, that's not true, there is one.
> 
> Back in _Dragon_ 297, (which, for the record, is official. It was published by Paizo then but that makes no difference) they ran the Epic theme since the ELH was coming out around then.
> 
> ...




Right enough I had forgotten the Sphinx.

I actually revised the Sphinx to make more sense and (along with a Godzilla inspired monster*) it should see the light of day when I get the website up and running.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> How would that match up with the bad boys of the IH U_K?




As with anything else it has its place, it will be more powerful than some and less powerful than others. Obviously there are beings within the IH that dwarf the Sphinx in terms of power. Equally so there are beings therein which the Sphinx would easily smash.

I anticipate their version of the Sphinx to be close to the median with regards IH creature power.


----------



## historian (Nov 19, 2003)

The Sphinx is the most powerful 'official' creature that I have seen statted in 3/3.5 ed.  That thing was a beast, I remember seeing multiple threads over on the Wizards message boards pontificating on how you would beat the thing (I think the popular solution was to drop something very heavy on it via psionics).  I also seem to remember that the epic spell dc for creating it was something like 1300.  It would be neat to assign it a revised IH CR.

Maybe a 'medium-yield' nuclear strike would do the trick (I had been wondering where U_K put nuclear damage)?

Oh yeah,



> Flattery will get you nowhere.




Hey, you can't blame a guy for trying, right?


----------



## historian (Nov 20, 2003)

Another question for Krust on the MSH supplement front:

Will you have a section on artifacts and, if so, will the ultimate nullifier be detailed?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 20, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The Sphinx is the most powerful 'official' creature that I have seen statted in 3/3.5 ed.  That thing was a beast, I remember seeing multiple threads over on the Wizards message boards pontificating on how you would beat the thing (I think the popular solution was to drop something very heavy on it via psionics).  I also seem to remember that the epic spell dc for creating it was something like 1300.  It would be neat to assign it a revised IH CR.




Just to clarify, my interpretation is a whole new Sphinx version altogether, not simply a revised CR. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Maybe a 'medium-yield' nuclear strike would do the trick (I had been wondering where U_K put nuclear damage)?




Heh heh!  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Hey, you can't blame a guy for trying, right?




I chalk it all up to youthful exuberance. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Another question for Krust on the MSH supplement front:
> 
> Will you have a section on artifacts and, if so, will the ultimate nullifier be detailed?




You have to understand of course that there is only a slim hope of me ever getting the chance to publish such a book. 

However, of course I would have to throw in a few favourite artifacts. I mean I would never detail Galactus without the Ultimate Nullifier, nor could I have Thanos without detailing the Infinity Gauntlet. 

Incidently I have been doing some research on DCs cosmic types and it looks like they have as many cosmic types as Marvel. So thats also a slim chance of happeneing.


----------



## historian (Nov 20, 2003)

Thanks for the reply Krust!



> Just to clarify, my interpretation is a whole new Sphinx version altogether, not simply a revised CR.




Understood.  I actually assigned a CR to what Alzrius posted pursuant to v4 (although I have lost the original issue and couldn't recall all of its spell-like abilities, but I remember them being significant) and came up w/approximately CR 190, which would make it roughly twice as powerful as a great force wyrm.  I'm anxious to see your version though.




> I chalk it all up to youthful exuberance.





It is indeed exuberance, but not necessarily youthful. , but I'll take it as a compliment.  




> You have to understand of course that there is only a slim hope of me ever getting the chance to publish such a book.





Certainly -- any such task would be rife w/commercial and legal issues.  




> However, of course I would have to throw in a few favourite artifacts. I mean I would never detail Galactus without the Ultimate Nullifier, nor could I have Thanos without detailing the Infinity Gauntlet.





That's the spirit, can't have Vecna w/o the eye.  




> Incidently I have been doing some research on DCs cosmic types and it looks like they have as many cosmic types as Marvel. So thats also a slim chance of happeneing.





The Spectre, Parallax, Superman Prime, etc.  They're there, but it takes a little more digging in DC to get to em', and I think the cosmic order is a bit less defined in DC (not necessarily a bad thing).

Cheers!


----------



## Alzrius (Nov 21, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Understood.  I actually assigned a CR to what Alzrius posted pursuant to v4 (although I have lost the original issue and couldn't recall all of its spell-like abilities, but I remember them being significant) and came up w/approximately CR 190, which would make it roughly twice as powerful as a great force wyrm.  I'm anxious to see your version though.




It had three spell-like abilities: _Incendiary Cloud_, _Insanity_, and _Forcecage_, all useable at will as a 60th level sorcerer. The effects always took place as if under the Intensify Spell epic metamagic feat (from the ELH).

It also had some extraordinary qualities also, including a strangle attack, and both blindsight and tremorsense to 1,000 feet.



> _That's the spirit, can't have Vecna w/o the eye.  _




Eye nothing! Talk to the Hand!


----------



## historian (Nov 21, 2003)

Thanks for the update Alzrius.




> It had three spell-like abilities: Incendiary Cloud, Insanity, and Forcecage, all useable at will as a 60th level sorcerer. The effects always took place as if under the Intensify Spell epic metamagic feat (from the ELH).
> 
> It also had some extraordinary qualities also, including a strangle attack, and both blindsight and tremorsense to 1,000 feet.





Didn't get all of those, after they were factored in, the CR would be closer to 210 or so (including 'arbitrarily' high ability scores).  On quick review, the sphinx should be able to defeat 4 phaetheons approximately 63% of the time, although he wouldn't stand a chance against anything above CR 840 or so. 





> Eye nothing! Talk to the Hand!





 , Kaz took a few souvenirs from Vecna before ascension.  I was always disappointed that I could never find stats for Kaz, maybe I'll make some up after I get some ideas from the IH (although I don't think Kaz should be stronger than about CR 40, I think I'll get some flavor ideas from the IH).


----------



## Alzrius (Nov 22, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Thanks for the update Alzrius.




Anytime. 



> _  , Kaz took a few souvenirs from Vecna before ascension.  I was always disappointed that I could never find stats for Kaz, maybe I'll make some up after I get some ideas from the IH (although I don't think Kaz should be stronger than about CR 40, I think I'll get some flavor ideas from the IH)._




Assuming you mean Kas, Vecna's treacherous general, as far as I know, he never took any souveneirs, since the fight with Vecna ended (for him) with his imprisonment on Citadel Cavitius, Vecna's prison colony on the Negative Quasielemental Plane of Ash. He was stuck there for a very long time with little to show for it, save becoming a vampire.

If you want stats for Kas, there are 2E stats for him in _Vecna Lives!_ (IIRC), and in the 2E Ravenloft campaign setting book _Domains of Dread_.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97 (Nov 23, 2003)

Hey UK!

Whats the word on the IH? If you can't get it out by christmas, perhaps January or Febuary?   My campaign's cosmotology has been on hold for almost a year, waiting for IH! 

Hit me back, just to chat...


----------



## Gez (Nov 23, 2003)

If you are to define artifacts, I really want the stats for the fabled _Head of Vecna_!


----------



## historian (Nov 24, 2003)

> Assuming you mean Kas, Vecna's treacherous general, as far as I know, he never took any souveneirs, since the fight with Vecna ended (for him) with his imprisonment on Citadel Cavitius, Vecna's prison colony on the Negative Quasielemental Plane of Ash. He was stuck there for a very long time with little to show for it, save becoming a vampire.





That's the one.  




> If you want stats for Kas, there are 2E stats for him in Vecna Lives! (IIRC), and in the 2E Ravenloft campaign setting book Domains of Dread.





Interesting, I think I saw one of these at some point about 2 and 1/2 years ago (post - 3ed.).  I may see if I could hunt one of these down down if just to glance over it.




> If you are to define artifacts, I really want the stats for the fabled Head of Vecna!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 24, 2003)

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hey UK!




Hey Dark Wolf mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Whats the word on the IH?




If I have any new information to report I'll let you all know.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> If you can't get it out by christmas, perhaps January or Febuary?




Obviously as soon as is humanly possible.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> My campaign's cosmotology has been on hold for almost a year, waiting for IH!




I didn't do that on purpose...honest. 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hit me back, just to chat...




Okay.


----------



## Kavon (Nov 26, 2003)

Hey U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Dark Wolf 97 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey! I had to put it on hold too! For almost one and a half year now! Sounds like a conspiracy! 


Hmm... How far allong would you say you are with the book at the moment?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 26, 2003)

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hiya mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey! I had to put it on hold too! For almost one and a half year now! Sounds like a conspiracy!




Whomever's responsible should be strung up. I only work here. 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hmm... How far allong would you say you are with the book at the moment?




Its about 90%+ written but only about 40%+ typed up. 

I am a fast typer though, I just need to get a few weeks of solid work on the IH. But its v4 and its revision that have annoyingly delayed things of late.


----------



## Kavon (Nov 28, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!




Hey again, U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Whomever's responsible should be strung up. I only work here.




lol 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Its about 90%+ written but only about 40%+ typed up.
> 
> I am a fast typer though, I just need to get a few weeks of solid work on the IH. But its v4 and its revision that have annoyingly delayed things of late.



Ah that's great. I take it you've gotten to more than 50% on that typing by now? (with me replying so late and all)


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 28, 2003)

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey again, U_K




Hiya mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Ah that's great. I take it you've gotten to more than 50% on that typing by now? (with me replying so late and all)




More likely I am still stuck on v4.2.


----------



## Kavon (Nov 28, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!




Heya U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> More likely I am still stuck on v4.2.




D'oh!  

What are you working on with that currently?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Nov 29, 2003)

Kavon said:
			
		

> Heya U_K




Hi Kavon mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> D'oh!
> 
> What are you working on with that currently?




It'll be finished this weekend. Revising all the CRs (again) takes its toll.


----------



## historian (Nov 30, 2003)

Hello Krust!



> It'll be finished this weekend. Revising all the CRs (again) takes its toll.




Cool, do you plan on posting it on the boards?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 2, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust!




Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Cool, do you plan on posting it on the boards?




Maybe, we'll see.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Dec 6, 2003)

Hi UK?

So, what's the good word?  When is this coming to my grubby little paws so I can show my group what a real Olympian game looks like?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 7, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Hi UK?




Hey blackshirt mate! 



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> So, what's the good word?  When is this coming to my grubby little paws so I can show my group what a real Olympian game looks like?




Unfortunately the v4 revisions still have me by the short and curlies, but I should have that done and dusted by tomorrow. Finally.

I have been still putting in an hour or two every night on the IH and I have the revised cosmology sorted. Its a bit more condensed than previous incarnations I have posted, but I think its better for it.


----------



## ciaran00 (Dec 7, 2003)

Where can I find/buy this immortals handbook? My semester's almost up. I need some good readin!!! 

ciaran


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey ciaran mate! 



			
				ciaran00 said:
			
		

> Where can I find/buy this immortals handbook? My semester's almost up. I need some good readin!!!




What time can you make it to my house by...? 

I'll try and get it finished as soon as humanly possible. But I am giving no promises (this time), I have found out too many times that the best laid plans often go astray.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Dec 16, 2003)

I hope Krust is still alive....


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 17, 2003)

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> I hope Krust is still alive....




I'm trapped in the death grip of the v5 CR/EL system. 

Though in my spare time I have still been working on the IH. 

At the moment I am trying to come up with some more epic feats* (to augment all the Divine, Cosmic etc. Gifts), but at the moment I am stuck on about 35, I would like to have around 60 or so.

*aka Meta Gifts or Meta Feats.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Dec 17, 2003)

Why do you call them Meta Gifts or Meta Feats?


----------



## CRGreathouse (Dec 17, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Why do you call them Meta Gifts or Meta Feats?




Short for "Metempiric Gifts", since "Metempiric" is the highest level of power in U_K's system.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 17, 2003)

Hi guys! 



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Why do you call them Meta Gifts or Meta Feats?






			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Short for "Metempiric Gifts", since "Metempiric" is the highest level of power in U_K's system.




Actually I have changed this around somewhat so that now Meta Feats/Gifts = Epic Feats.

Formerly Omnific Gifts now become Transcendental Gifts.
Formerly Metempiric Gifts now become Omnific Gifts.

So you would have:

Feats/Gifts
Meta Feats/Gifts
Divine Feats/Gifts
Cosmic Feats/Gifts
Transcendental Feats/Gifts
Omnific Feats/Gifts

It was just tiny things that made me change my mind.

If I could find another 25 Meta Gifts I would bring the Gift Total in the book over 300. I think, even though the bulk are Divine Gifts, that Meta Gifts are very important, and also further increase the books 'epic' appeal.


----------



## Drow Jones (Dec 17, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi guys!
> 
> Actually I have changed this around somewhat so that now Meta Feats/Gifts = Epic Feats.
> 
> ...




Why "Meta" instead of "Epic"? Isn't the term "epic" in the SRD now, so you could use it? 

Changing the terms, which WotC uses is going to create confusion among your future customers. "Epic feat" is already a recognisable D&D term, whereas "Meta gift" is known to nobody. 

If you expand the feat power chain (feat/epic feat/?/?/...), it's good design to expand on the already established terminology. Please, use the term feat, even if it is a bit silly to have a feat called "Let There Be Light!" or whatnot.  

I'd say drop "meta" and gift" terms. Brand/terminology -recognition is nothing to sneeze at.

- DJ

PS: Are your Divine Feats equivalent to WotC's Salient Abilities in Deities & Demi-gods? 

PPS: WotC should have called them Divine Feats.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 17, 2003)

Hi Drow Jones! 



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Why "Meta" instead of "Epic"? Isn't the term "epic" in the SRD now, so you could use it?
> 
> Changing the terms, which WotC uses is going to create confusion among your future customers. "Epic feat" is already a recognisable D&D term, whereas "Meta gift" is known to nobody.




To be honest I havn't really supplanted the Epic feat terminology rather than simply mentioned an alternative. So I wouldn't worry too much about that.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> If you expand the feat power chain (feat/epic feat/?/?/...), it's good design to expand on the already established terminology. Please, use the term feat, even if it is a bit silly to have a feat called "Let There Be Light!" or whatnot.




The reason I use the term Gift (at least for Divine Gifts and beyond) is to avoid confusion with 'Divine Feats'.

Also 'Feats' are gained in a very specific way (from HD increases and Class Level increases) whereas 'Gifts' are not necessarily gained that way.

So there are both philosophical and mechanical reasons for supplanting 'Feats' with 'Gifts' at a certain measure of power at least.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> I'd say drop "meta" and gift" terms. Brand/terminology -recognition is nothing to sneeze at.




The term Epic Feat is still used throughout. However I'll be using the term Gifts to seperate something gained from Feat progression from something gained from Divine Power.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> PS: Are your Divine Feats equivalent to WotC's Salient Abilities in Deities & Demi-gods?




Yes. However a small handful (about 3 or 4) of their Salient Divine Abilities are closer to Cosmic Gifts than Divine Gifts.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> PPS: WotC should have called them Divine Feats.




Possibly, though that would misleadingly imply they are gained at a rate of +1/3 HD/Levels or indeed whether they could be taken as class features.

...which would actually make for an interesting optional rule though.


----------



## Drow Jones (Dec 17, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Drow Jones!




Howdy! (That was quick.  )



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> To be honest I havn't really supplanted the Epic feat terminology rather than simply mentioned an alternative. So I wouldn't worry too much about that.




Ah. No worries then.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The reason I use the term Gift (at least for Divine Gifts and beyond) is to avoid confusion with 'Divine Feats'.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> The term Epic Feat is still used throughout. However I'll be using the term Gifts to seperate something gained from Feat progression from something gained from Divine Power.




Now I see. I thought "feat" and "gift" were the same thing. My mistake, sorry.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yes. However a small handful (about 3 or 4) of their Salient Divine Abilities are closer to Cosmic Gifts than Divine Gifts.




Yeah, a few of them are pretty far from others power-wise.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Possibly, though that would misleadingly imply they are gained at a rate of +1/3 HD/Levels or indeed whether they could be taken as class features.




As I mentioned above, I was under the impression this was the method you are using in IH. You said at one point, that you're not using Divine Ranks. I thought that you had constructed a system for immortals resembling levels and feats. Propably something like in the old Wrath of the Immortals box: 36 immortal levels on top of 36 character levels, etc...



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...which would actually make for an interesting optional rule though.




Perhaps a sidebar in Immortals Handbook? 

- DJ


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Dec 17, 2003)

Drow Jones said:
			
		

> As I mentioned above, I was under the impression this was the method you are using in IH. You said at one point, that you're not using Divine Ranks. I thought that you had constructed a system for immortals resembling levels and feats. Propably something like in the old Wrath of the Immortals box: 36 immortal levels on top of 36 character levels, etc...
> - DJ




This would be cool beyond words. Do it. Krust, oh please do it!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 17, 2003)

Hey Drow Jones mate! 



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Howdy! (That was quick.  )




I'm hasted. 



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Ah. No worries then.








			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Now I see. I thought "feat" and "gift" were the same thing. My mistake, sorry.




No apologies necessary mate.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Yeah, a few of them are pretty far from others power-wise.




Indeed.

Just to reiterate, you won't actually need Deities & Demigods to use the Immortals Handbook; however certain things will be compatible and power wise I have tried to make things fairly similar.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> As I mentioned above, I was under the impression this was the method you are using in IH.




Nope.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> You said at one point, that you're not using Divine Ranks.




Thats correct, I find them unnecessary. They complicate matters which you should instead be trying to simplify. 

That said, there are rough parallels between certain aspects of my templates and divine rank. 



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> I thought that you had constructed a system for immortals resembling levels and feats. Propably something like in the old Wrath of the Immortals box: 36 immortal levels on top of 36 character levels, etc...




Not quite. Divinity has absolutely nothing to do with Level or Experience Points.

Instead I have constructed divinity as per multiple Templates (Demigod Template; Lesser God Template etc.). The templates are gained by accumulating worship points.

Though I suppose in a way you could say that each Template is akin to one Divine Level and Worship Points are akin to Divine Experience Points.

Incidently if you wanted to you could still very easily use Divine Ranks through my system - its that modular.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Perhaps a sidebar in Immortals Handbook?




Possibly.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 17, 2003)

Hey Sorcica mate! 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> This would be cool beyond words. Do it. Krust, oh please do it!




While I am certainly a fan of Wrath of the Immortals; they do it their way, and I do it mine. Put it like this, if their way was better than mine I'd be using theirs. Suffice to say it isn't and I don't*. 

*Of course I am biased.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Dec 17, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Sorcica mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Of course you are, but if the IH exceeds Wrath of the Immortals I'm now one of the people begging you to hurry up, even though I've also been one of those delaying you with the CR system.  

BTW, I've been thinking (believe it or not). Will there be some sort of bonus material in the print version of the IH. I mean, if I already bought 4 pdf's of $8 a piece, it would be very nice to gain something special for investing in the hardcover as well.
I immediately suggest CRs done for some other monster books, perhaps MM2 or Fiend Folio - or even better Tome of Horrors and Book of Templates. Maybe some of the work over at dicefreaks as well?
Just suggestions


----------



## CRGreathouse (Dec 17, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Incidently if you wanted to you could still very easily use Divine Ranks through my system - its that modular.




Good.  That's actually prerequisite for my buying your system... Divine Ranks are an integral part of my campaign world.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Dec 17, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Bjorn mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Mind if I make some suggestions?

*Herculean Strength:* You are considered one (possibly two) size category/s larger for purposes of carrying capacity, lifting, and dragging.

*Marvelous Intellect:* You apply your intelligence bonus to all Knowledge skills twice instead of once.

*Cacaphonous Stunning Blow:* When you make a Stunning Blow, you also do 1d6 points of Sonic damage and permanently Deafen your opponent on a failed save.  Even on a successful save, they are deafened for 1d4 rounds.

*Resonating Blow:* When you make a Stunning Blow, you may expend additional Stunning Blow uses for the day to make it last long - If you spend four uses, it lasts two rounds, and if you spend nine uses, it lasts three rounds, and so on.  You must spend these uses before you make the attack roll.

*Legendary Rider, non-sucking version:* As before, but now also allows you to make a ride check to ride ANY mount without penalty.

*Legendary Runner:* As Run, but you can move 6 times your normal movement instead of 5, and you can now charge 2.5 times your normal movement rate.  Requires Run as a prerequisite.

*Malevolent Spell:* Only spells that target specific creatures can be affected by Malevolent spell.  If a creature makes its saving throw against a Malevolent spell, they are affected by the same spell again the next round - In other words, they must save twice or suffer the full effect of the spell, and will always suffer the secondary effect twice.  This feat adds +X to the spell slot required by the spell.

*Defiance of Gravity:* This requires the Legendary Climber feat.  With this feat, you can make any climb check without the use of your hands, allowing you to use them to wield weapons or for other things.


----------



## historian (Dec 17, 2003)

Hello Krust



> Actually I have changed this around somewhat so that now Meta Feats/Gifts = Epic Feats.
> 
> Formerly Omnific Gifts now become Transcendental Gifts.
> Formerly Metempiric Gifts now become Omnific Gifts.
> ...




I don't suppose you'd be so forthcoming as to share an example of each one of these?  

Seriously though, I think the categorization makes sense, although I liked the idea of metempiric being beyond omnific -- BTW, in the IH, is it theoretically possible for a being to be beyond omnipotent?

Glad to see this thread getting some movement, and I hope all of your projects are coming along well.


----------



## Drow Jones (Dec 17, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Drow Jones mate!
> 
> I'm hasted.




That explains a lot. 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Just to reiterate, you won't actually need Deities & Demigods to use the Immortals Handbook; however certain things will be compatible and power wise I have tried to make things fairly similar.




Compatability with WotC products is always good, even if some of them are a bit... substandard. *cough*deitiesanddemigods*cough*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Thats correct, I find them unnecessary. They complicate matters which you should instead be trying to simplify.
> 
> That said, there are rough parallels between certain aspects of my templates and divine rank.




The idea behind the Divine Ranks is ok. It's the execution which I find lacking.

Divine Ranks in D&Dgods are like a single god-template with 21 levels of varying power. However, the powers gained are imbalanced and a lot of information is missing. 

(Most notably the starting stats of gods! How do they correlate to gods DRank and portfolio? If you are a mortal ascendant, when are they gained and how much is gained at one time? Do they get stat increases every four levels? I thought I was supposed to be able to create gods from scratch using D&Dgods, but I had to go to internet to find even the standard array!  )



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Instead I have constructed divinity as per multiple Templates (Demigod Template; Lesser God Template etc.). The templates are gained by accumulating worship points.




This sounds very good. I have two questions though  :

What about god-like creatures who do not have worshippers like The Great Old Ones of old D&D, the Endless of Neil Gaiman (Sandman etc.), Ao of Forgotten Realms? Can a god transcend worshippers and if so, how do you then measure the relative power and advancement? 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Though I suppose in a way you could say that each Template is akin to one Divine Level and Worship Points are akin to Divine Experience Points.
> 
> Incidently if you wanted to you could still very easily use Divine Ranks through my system - its that modular.




Sounds great.  

I'm really excited about your work. I was (am) a huge fan of the immortals of the olden days. I tried to convert Wrath of Immortals to 3e myself at some point, but real-life kept distracting me...   I hoped that Deities and Demigods would have done so, but it was a major disappointment. (Manual of the Planes got my hopes up.  )

Nevertheless you seem to be going into right direction. Keep up the good work! I'm certainly going to buy IH. 

- DJ


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 17, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> Of course you are, but if the IH exceeds Wrath of the Immortals




Whadya mean 'if'! 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> I'm now one of the people begging you to hurry up, even though I've also been one of those delaying you with the CR system.








			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> BTW, I've been thinking (believe it or not). Will there be some sort of bonus material in the print version of the IH. I mean, if I already bought 4 pdf's of $8 a piece, it would be very nice to gain something special for investing in the hardcover as well.




Thats almost certainly a given.



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> I immediately suggest CRs done for some other monster books, perhaps MM2 or Fiend Folio - or even better Tome of Horrors and Book of Templates. Maybe some of the work over at dicefreaks as well?
> Just suggestions




I don't know about that, whats more likely is that type of material will be on the eventual website*.

*Don't EVEN go there!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 17, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Good. That's actually prerequisite for my buying your system... Divine Ranks are an integral part of my campaign world.




At such high levels I just think the majority of people will want as little confusion and number crunching as possible.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Dec 17, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> At such high levels I just think the majority of people will want as little confusion and number crunching as possible.




Tell that to the player who just raised his deity up a divine rank...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 17, 2003)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Mind if I make some suggestions?




Not at all, fire away.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Herculean Strength:* You are considered one (possibly two) size category/s larger for purposes of carrying capacity, lifting, and dragging.




This one seems interesting; perhaps it would be better named 'Beast of Burden' though?



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Marvelous Intellect:* You apply your intelligence bonus to all Knowledge skills twice instead of once.




Now this one is interesting, I'll have to check to see if it conflicts, in part, with some of my Divine Gifts.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Cacaphonous Stunning Blow:* When you make a Stunning Blow, you also do 1d6 points of Sonic damage and permanently Deafen your opponent on a failed save.  Even on a successful save, they are deafened for 1d4 rounds.




Isn't there an epic feat like this already?



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Resonating Blow:* When you make a Stunning Blow, you may expend additional Stunning Blow uses for the day to make it last long - If you spend four uses, it lasts two rounds, and if you spend nine uses, it lasts three rounds, and so on.  You must spend these uses before you make the attack roll.




I have a variation on this which is permanent. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Legendary Rider, non-sucking version:* As before, but now also allows you to make a ride check to ride ANY mount without penalty.




I have changed my policy on changing official feats - I don't do it anymore. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Legendary Runner:* As Run, but you can move 6 times your normal movement instead of 5, and you can now charge 2.5 times your normal movement rate.  Requires Run as a prerequisite.




Mmmm, I dunno, I can't imagine too many taking it.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Malevolent Spell:* Only spells that target specific creatures can be affected by Malevolent spell.  If a creature makes its saving throw against a Malevolent spell, they are affected by the same spell again the next round - In other words, they must save twice or suffer the full effect of the spell, and will always suffer the secondary effect twice.  This feat adds +X to the spell slot required by the spell.




Isn't there a Metamagic Feat thats very similar to this? Double spell or somesuch? 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Defiance of Gravity:* This requires the Legendary Climber feat.  With this feat, you can make any climb check without the use of your hands, allowing you to use them to wield weapons or for other things.




I have a lot of wuxia style stuff in there already. I watch A LOT of Hong Kong movies. 

On that subject, one recent great movie I have seen is called Akumi (its actually Japanese rather than Hong Kong) - just released in the Japanese cinema I believe. If you get the chance check it out - very good:

http://www.kfccinema.com/reviews/swordplay/azumi/azumi.html


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 17, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust.




Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I don't suppose you'd be so forthcoming as to share an example of each one of these?




Cheeky! 

Just before the release I'll have some teaser stuff for you all! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Seriously though, I think the categorization makes sense, although I liked the idea of metempiric being beyond omnific -- BTW, in the IH, is it theoretically possible for a being to be beyond omnipotent?




Depends on your definition of infinity. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Glad to see this thread getting some movement, and I hope all of your projects are coming along well.




Thanks for the support mate.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Dec 17, 2003)

Herculean Strength is identical to the Four-Color to Fantasy power Mighty Lifting, which requires a modicum of Super Strength, but is increasable(so eventually, with enough strength, a halfling could use Colossal weapons), plus it adds a +5 bonus to Strength for purposes of carrying and lifting.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 17, 2003)

Drow Jones said:
			
		

> That explains a lot.








			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Compatability with WotC products is always good, even if some of them are a bit... substandard. *cough*deitiesanddemigods*cough*




Indeed.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> The idea behind the Divine Ranks is ok. It's the execution which I find lacking.




All the stuff about individual divine ranks trumping each other really turned me off.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Divine Ranks in D&Dgods are like a single god-template with 21 levels of varying power. However, the powers gained are imbalanced and a lot of information is missing.
> 
> (Most notably the starting stats of gods! How do they correlate to gods DRank and portfolio? If you are a mortal ascendant, when are they gained and how much is gained at one time? Do they get stat increases every four levels? I thought I was supposed to be able to create gods from scratch using D&Dgods, but I had to go to internet to find even the standard array!  )




Yes they did scrimp on a lot of the details. I think the book confused itself as to whether it was for mortal PCs or divine PCs and ended up working for neither.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> This sounds very good. I have two questions though  :




Fire away! 



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> What about god-like creatures who do not have worshippers like The Great Old Ones of old D&D, the Endless of Neil Gaiman (Sandman etc.), Ao of Forgotten Realms?




Worship Points are simply a catch all name for the measure of divine power. 

Beings can gain WP in different ways other than mere worship. You can gain it by slaying other immortals (Highlander style); from Sacrifices; from Artifacts etc.

All (divine) power is relative. Thats the basis for the system.

So you could have a Demon with Lesser God Power which was only 10% derived from worship, or an Immortal Demigod whose power increased 10% when he defeated a rival Demigod. 



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Can a god transcend worshippers and if so, how do you then measure the relative power and advancement?




Sort of. You don't need worshippers to become an immortal, but they will always help boost your power.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Sounds great.
> 
> I'm really excited about your work. I was (am) a huge fan of the immortals of the olden days. I tried to convert Wrath of Immortals to 3e myself at some point, but real-life kept distracting me...   I hoped that Deities and Demigods would have done so, but it was a major disappointment. (Manual of the Planes got my hopes up.  )
> 
> Nevertheless you seem to be going into right direction. Keep up the good work! I'm certainly going to buy IH.




Well thanks very much for the kind words and the support.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Dec 18, 2003)

I ask again(sorry I know I'm a pain in the arse) when is this coming out?  I checked the SRD today and I noticed that some of the epic stuff is in it now(although not the monsters, for one).


----------



## Anabstercorian (Dec 18, 2003)

*Even more suggestions for Meta/Epic Feats!*

*Instantaneous Retrieval:* You can both draw and stow any number of weapons (or other items) to or from your hands as a free action.  Thus, even when you have no weapon drawn and you do not threaten an area with natural weapons or unarmed attacks, you can make an attack of opportunity with any weapon on your person, even reach weapons, by instantly retrieving it, attacking with it, and stowing it again.  Alternatively, you can sheath two weapons and retrieve a wand (free action), use it (standard action), then stow the wand and retrieve both weapons (free action), then run around (move action).

*Legendary Runner version 2:* As the original, except you can charge THREE times your movement instead of twice it.  This is a very significant tactical advantage, I'd think.

*Instantly Girded:* Once per day as a full round action, you may expend an Epic Spell slot to cast ten spells (one for each spell level) on yourself.  Each spell must have a casting time of one action or less and have a non-instantaneous duration.  When you select this feat, you select the spells that you cast using this feat.

*Debilitating Nut Punch:* Once per day, when making an unarmed attack, you may execute a Debilitating Nut Punch.  Instead of doing damage, you make a damage roll normally - the victim then must roll a fortitude save vs the damage roll or suffer complete destruction of the nuts.

*Sure Shot:* Whenever you make an attack roll with a ranged weapon that uses ammunition or a thrown weapon priced as ammunition and you miss, you do not actually fire - You simply recognize that you are going to fail to hit your target and abort the shot, using up that attack but not the ammunition.  In other words, you never miss - You simply don't fire unless you're going to hit.  This is useful not only for style but because it lets you quite safely invest hundreds of thousands of GP in extremely powerful ammunition - Never waste an Arrow of Slaying again!

*Defiant Soul:* You are immune to the first X negative levels you receive each day.  Negative levels that cannot be removed by magic (such as those inflicted on a good character for holding an unholy weapon) are not affected by this feat.  You are also immune to the first X death attacks you are targeted by each day.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Dec 18, 2003)

*Even more suggestions for Meta/Epic Feats!*

*Instantaneous Retrieval:* You can both draw and stow any number of weapons (or other items) to or from your hands as a free action.  Thus, even when you have no weapon drawn and you do not threaten an area with natural weapons or unarmed attacks, you can make an attack of opportunity with any weapon on your person, even reach weapons, by instantly retrieving it, attacking with it, and stowing it again.  Alternatively, you can sheath two weapons and retrieve a wand (free action), use it (standard action), then stow the wand and retrieve both weapons (free action), then run around (move action).

*Legendary Runner version 2:* As the original, except you can charge THREE times your movement instead of twice it.  This is a very significant tactical advantage, I'd think.

*Instantly Girded:* Once per day as a full round action, you may expend an Epic Spell slot to cast ten spells (one for each spell level) on yourself.  Each spell must have a casting time of one action or less and have a non-instantaneous duration.  When you select this feat, you select the spells that you cast using this feat.

*Debilitating Nut Punch:* Once per day, when making an unarmed attack, you may execute a Debilitating Nut Punch.  Instead of doing damage, you make a damage roll normally - the victim then must roll a fortitude save vs the damage roll or suffer complete destruction of the nuts.

*Sure Shot:* Whenever you make an attack roll with a ranged weapon that uses ammunition or a thrown weapon priced as ammunition and you miss, you do not actually fire - You simply recognize that you are going to fail to hit your target and abort the shot, using up that attack but not the ammunition.  In other words, you never miss - You simply don't fire unless you're going to hit.  This is useful not only for style but because it lets you quite safely invest hundreds of thousands of GP in extremely powerful ammunition - Never waste an Arrow of Slaying again!

*Defiant Soul:* You are immune to the first X negative levels you receive each day.  Negative levels that cannot be removed by magic (such as those inflicted on a good character for holding an unholy weapon) are not affected by this feat.  You are also immune to the first X death attacks you are targeted by each day.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 18, 2003)

Hey Blackshirt mate! 



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> I ask again (sorry I know I'm a pain in the arse)




Thats okay. 



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> when is this coming out?




When its finished. 

I have been burned answering that question before so I am no longer going to until I can answer it with certainty.



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> I checked the SRD today and I noticed that some of the epic stuff is in it now (although not the monsters, for one).




The only thing that has been holding me back over the past few months have been the various incarnations of the CR/EL System, not the SRD.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 18, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Tell that to the player who just raised his deity up a divine rank...




I would prefer to tell it to the DM who has to spend time creating NPC deities.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 18, 2003)

Hey Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Instantaneous Retrieval:* You can both draw and stow any number of weapons (or other items) to or from your hands as a free action.  Thus, even when you have no weapon drawn and you do not threaten an area with natural weapons or unarmed attacks, you can make an attack of opportunity with any weapon on your person, even reach weapons, by instantly retrieving it, attacking with it, and stowing it again.  Alternatively, you can sheath two weapons and retrieve a wand (free action), use it (standard action), then stow the wand and retrieve both weapons (free action), then run around (move action).




Isn't this a bit similar to the Quick Draw feat?



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Legendary Runner version 2:* As the original, except you can charge THREE times your movement instead of twice it.  This is a very significant tactical advantage, I'd think.




You know there is already an epic feat (Epic Speed?) which lets you increase your actual movement which I think is much better.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Instantly Girded:* Once per day as a full round action, you may expend an Epic Spell slot to cast ten spells (one for each spell level) on yourself.  Each spell must have a casting time of one action or less and have a non-instantaneous duration.  When you select this feat, you select the spells that you cast using this feat.




A sort of Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer; epic stylee.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Debilitating Nut Punch:* Once per day, when making an unarmed attack, you may execute a Debilitating Nut Punch.  Instead of doing damage, you make a damage roll normally - the victim then must roll a fortitude save vs the damage roll or suffer complete destruction of the nuts.




Ouch.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Sure Shot:* Whenever you make an attack roll with a ranged weapon that uses ammunition or a thrown weapon priced as ammunition and you miss, you do not actually fire - You simply recognize that you are going to fail to hit your target and abort the shot, using up that attack but not the ammunition.  In other words, you never miss - You simply don't fire unless you're going to hit.  This is useful not only for style but because it lets you quite safely invest hundreds of thousands of GP in extremely powerful ammunition - Never waste an Arrow of Slaying again!




This one is interesting, but philosophically you have to surmount the time taken for the arrow to reach its target and secondly that D&D Armour Class also encompasses the penetration aspect of the attack. Also what if your opponent has gloves of Missile Snaring, or can simply deflect the missile? Seems like a lot of loopholes.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Defiant Soul:* You are immune to the first X negative levels you receive each day.  Negative levels that cannot be removed by magic (such as those inflicted on a good character for holding an unholy weapon) are not affected by this feat.  You are also immune to the first X death attacks you are targeted by each day.




Might be better as simply anulling the first death attack/energy drain you face per round?

Thanks for the above mate, I am sure people are finding them very interesting.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 18, 2003)

Hey Blackshirt mate! 



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Herculean Strength is identical to the Four-Color to Fantasy power Mighty Lifting, which requires a modicum of Super Strength, but is increasable (so eventually, with enough strength, a halfling could use Colossal weapons), plus it adds a +5 bonus to Strength for purposes of carrying and lifting.




There are certainly a lot of parallels between Epic/Immortal Gaming and Super Hero Gaming.

I would imagine you could use a lot of their powers as surrogate epic feats. Though I must admit I haven't read 4CtF.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Dec 18, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I would prefer to tell it to the DM who has to spend time creating NPC deities.




In this case, that's me -- and the aforementioned player is one of mine.

Edit: Though, with a few exceptions, I've only statted the weaker deities -- the ones the PCs can interact with on a meaningful level.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 18, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> In this case, that's me -- and the aforementioned player is one of mine.




As long as you are comfortable with that extra baggage then fine, however I just think that its an irrelevance.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Edit: Though, with a few exceptions, I've only statted the weaker deities -- the ones the PCs can interact with on a meaningful level.




I'm considering adding some stereotypical stat blocks so that DMs can create deities really quickly (even though my rules are already designed for optimum accessibility).

But it may just be better to provide some iconic sample deities; which DMs could then modify (and reuse) at their leisure if they are ever in a hurry.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Dec 18, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'm considering adding some stereotypical stat blocks so that DMs can create deities really quickly (even though my rules are already designed for optimum accessibility).
> 
> But it may just be better to provide some iconic sample deities; which DMs could then modify (and reuse) at their leisure if they are ever in a hurry.




I wouldn't bother.  I think most people who would buy the IH anyway are the sort that would want to do it ground-up anyway.  The Iconics should privide enough of a guide.


----------



## historian (Dec 18, 2003)

Hello Krust!

Depends on your definition of infinity. [/QUOTE] 

Interesting point, my loose theory is that an omnipotent being is necessarily infinite in power, but an infinitely powerful being isn't necessarily omnipotent (part of this is, of course, comic book logic, but it is also, at least by analogy, supported by certain mathematical theories).


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 18, 2003)

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I wouldn't bother.  I think most people who would buy the IH anyway are the sort that would want to do it ground-up anyway.  The Iconics should privide enough of a guide.




Appreciate the feedback mate!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 18, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust!




Hey historian mate! 



			
				by me said:
			
		

> Depends on your definition of infinity.






			
				historian said:
			
		

> Interesting point, my loose theory is that an omnipotent being is necessarily infinite in power, but an infinitely powerful being isn't necessarily omnipotent (part of this is, of course, comic book logic, but it is also, at least by analogy, supported by certain mathematical theories).




As I see it 'infinity' is determined by space and therefore depends on the extent of how much you encompass.


----------



## -Eä- (Dec 19, 2003)

Hey, people! Long time, no see (or what they say) (-;

It is amazing that the WPS (IH)-threads are still as active as they used to be, but I guess that's the way it is with a system like this - you will want it - even after you're finished with a campaign, story or the like.

Well... I thought I'd just offer my stance on infinity.

To know what one means with infinity, one must define what aspect it is an infinity of. For instance, you may talk of infinity of all three dimensions (negative or positive) of three-dimensional space. The "infinity" of a three-dimensional space is the space itself.

If being encompasses the space itself, and has power to do anything within that space, it is omnipotent in that space, but its omnipotence may perhaps not extend to - for instance - another plane (which is an entirely different space). Therefore the being which is omnipotent in its own space, may not be omnipotent with regard to some larger space, a space the smaller space may or may not be a subspace of.

So what is then the meaning of an infinitely powerful being which is not omnipotent? I have no idea, really, but it is an interesting concept. Here are some ideas:
The infinitely powerful being may for instance not sense the entire space, but where his senses reach, everything is possible. 
Another posibility is that the being is omnipotent in its own space, but not in regard to some other space.


----------



## Paragon (Dec 19, 2003)

Hey krust!  
I hate to rehash subjects but it has been awhile since it was disscussed.  What was the final decision on the magic system that you will be using?  I'm guessing since ELH is not SRD'd will you work up your own for epic/divine lvl spell-casting?
thanks for the info and all the work, don't let em' get you down!


----------



## historian (Dec 19, 2003)

That's an interesting post Eä.  I hear you.

The idea of the multiple infinites came up when I was thinking about 3 dimensional space (or 4 dimensional or whatever) and that space being potentially infinite.  If it's infinite, then it seems, at least theoretically possible that it could contain multiple infinite beings (or maybe not).  Because you could only logically have one omnipotent, i.e., a being who could do literally anything (having two omnipotents would be a contradiction, although some might point out that literal omnipotence itself is self-contradicting), it would be impossible for any two of the multiple infinites to be truly omnipotent.

In any event, that's my basic thought process, but I could flesh it out further if unclear.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 20, 2003)

-Eä- said:
			
		

> Hey, people! Long time, no see (or what they say) (-;






Hey Eä mate! 

Always nice to hear from you; I trust your exam went well? By the way you were right about Return of the King; it was breathtaking to behold.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> It is amazing that the WPS (IH)-threads are still as active as they used to be, but I guess that's the way it is with a system like this - you will want it - even after you're finished with a campaign, story or the like.




I appreciate the interest from all quarters. 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Well... I thought I'd just offer my stance on infinity.
> 
> To know what one means with infinity, one must define what aspect it is an infinity of.




Exactly! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> For instance, you may talk of infinity of all three dimensions (negative or positive) of three-dimensional space. The "infinity" of a three-dimensional space is the space itself.
> 
> If being encompasses the space itself, and has power to do anything within that space, it is omnipotent in that space, but its omnipotence may perhaps not extend to - for instance - another plane (which is an entirely different space). Therefore the being which is omnipotent in its own space, may not be omnipotent with regard to some larger space, a space the smaller space may or may not be a subspace of.
> 
> ...




I like this last one. 

However, I don't want to spoil any surprises for anyone so I'll keep my own opinions obscure for now.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 20, 2003)

Paragon said:
			
		

> Hey krust!




Hey Paragon mate! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> I hate to rehash subjects but it has been awhile since it was disscussed.




Fire away dude!



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> What was the final decision on the magic system that you will be using?  I'm guessing since ELH is not SRD'd will you work up your own for epic/divine lvl spell-casting?




Yes. However I have designed my magic system in such a way that you can easily convert any spell to the Epic system in a matter of moments. 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> thanks for the info and all the work,




My pleasure mate! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> don't let em' get you down!




They won't, although Return of the King did a good job in recharging my batteries lets say.


----------



## -Eä- (Dec 21, 2003)

I understand what you say, hitorian, and I think I agree. At least mathematicaly, it's possible to have multiple infinities within a space, so there is no point in neglecting the existence in the real world.


My exam went excellent (-: However, it is only a formality, and I don't place particularily large weights on exams, generally.

I'm glad that you liked the Return of the King. I'm already looking forward to seeing it again. Do you think it is the best of the trilogy? I think it is, but not by much. The Fellowship was also excellent.


----------



## historian (Dec 21, 2003)

> I understand what you say, hitorian, and I think I agree. At least mathematicaly, it's possible to have multiple infinities within a space, so there is no point in neglecting the existence in the real world.




Yeah, it's interesting in theory at least, although it may not have much practical application.  Then again, with the robustness of Krust's system, you never know.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 21, 2003)

Hi Eä mate! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> I understand what you say, hitorian, and I think I agree. At least mathematicaly, it's possible to have multiple infinities within a space, so there is no point in neglecting the existence in the real world.




What if one being had Infinite Strength and another had Infinite Intelligence. 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> My exam went excellent (-:




Great news! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> However, it is only a formality,




Thats what I like to hear - positive thinking! Keep it up, you'll go places! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> and I don't place particularily large weights on exams, generally.




Nevertheless, never renege on a chance to test or push yourself. 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> I'm glad that you liked the Return of the King.




Thats an understatement, I thought it was FAN-TASTIC! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> I'm already looking forward to seeing it again.




Me too. Not to mention the extra 90 minutes in the extended DVD version.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Do you think it is the best of the trilogy?




Definately. All my friends (no roleplayers) who went with me thought it was easily the best of the three.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> I think it is, but not by much. The Fellowship was also excellent.




I would say King; Fellowship; then Towers.

For me elements in Towers didn't quite hit the same spot as the quasi-animated version; where theres a palpable sense of defeat just before Gandalfs cavalry charge. I thought that was a missed opportunity by Jackson. Though thats the only bit of the three movies I can really fault.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 22, 2003)

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's interesting in theory at least, although it may not have much practical application.  Then again, with the robustness of Krust's system, you never know.




I would really like to tell you guys a few things but it would just spoil the surprises.


----------



## historian (Dec 22, 2003)

Hello Krust!  



> What if one being had Infinite Strength and another had Infinite Intelligence.




heh, heh, heh, I wonder what either one of these would do to CR? 



> I would really like to tell you guys a few things but it would just spoil the surprises.




I'm looking forward to uncovering those surprises in due time.  

I'm going to see Return of the King on the 24th, like you guys, everyone I know who has seen it has raved.  I heard that the character/creature portrayals were unreal.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 22, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust!




Hi historian mate!  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> heh, heh, heh, I wonder what either one of these would do to CR?




Maybe not as much as you might think.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to uncovering those surprises in due time.




I'm sure the discussions herein will be better served _after_ the release. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm going to see Return of the King on the 24th, like you guys, everyone I know who has seen it has raved.  I heard that the character/creature portrayals were unreal.




I won't spoil anything for you - have a great time mate.


----------



## Shaedun (Dec 23, 2003)

You the people that do the whole Epic Levels thing and all?  I know alot of people dislike the Epic Level idea and all and shudder at immortal beings and such but I absolutely love that stuff.  I dont like having to restrict a characters level or possibilities.  I do alot of creating myself in theese regards as well so if this is the place to be let me know.  If not could you point me to where I could list some of these ideas and discuss Epic Level and Immortal things.  I am a creator it is both a blessing and a curse.  I dont play but I am addicted to creating things for the game ranging from items to monsters to NPCs to Gods basically whatever I feel like.  If this isnt the place let me know.  Even so if you get time and are interested (I like Psionics as well) check out my Psionics thread from time to time as well since Ill be posting some new powers feats and monster races and stuff.  Thanks.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 23, 2003)

Hi there Shaedun! 



			
				Shaedun said:
			
		

> You the people that do the whole Epic Levels thing and all?




Well certainly everyone here is interested in Epic Level stuff.



			
				Shaedun said:
			
		

> I know alot of people dislike the Epic Level idea and all and shudder at immortal beings and such but I absolutely love that stuff.




Me too. 



			
				Shaedun said:
			
		

> I dont like having to restrict a characters level or possibilities.




The only restrictions should be your imagination. 



			
				Shaedun said:
			
		

> I do alot of creating myself in theese regards as well so if this is the place to be let me know.  If not could you point me to where I could list some of these ideas and discuss Epic Level and Immortal things.




Well you are certainly free to post any ideas herein; however if you want to start your own thread about epic related stuff then thats okay too (this thread is getting a bit long-winded to be fair, so it might be better creating your own thread then come back here and give us all a link to it). 



			
				Shaedun said:
			
		

> I am a creator it is both a blessing and a curse.  I dont play but I am addicted to creating things for the game ranging from items to monsters to NPCs to Gods basically whatever I feel like.  If this isnt the place let me know.




I think we are pretty easy going people. If you want to post epic material herein (for people to discuss) then go right ahead. Or, if you want to start a new thread for epic material, do that and come back and let us know here where it is so we can jump into the discussion. 



			
				Shaedun said:
			
		

> Even so if you get time and are interested (I like Psionics as well) check out my Psionics thread from time to time as well since Ill be posting some new powers feats and monster races and stuff.  Thanks.




Okay, will do. I presume you mean this thread(?):

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33242

Thanks for dropping by.


----------



## Chosen01 (Dec 23, 2003)

Shaedun said:
			
		

> If not could you point me to where I could list some of these ideas and discuss Epic Level and Immortal things.



Forum for epic fans by epic fans


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 23, 2003)

Hi Chosen01 mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Forum for epic fans by epic fans




Absolutely! 

Dicefreaks is a fantastic site, I should really try to post there more often.


----------



## Shaedun (Dec 23, 2003)

Thanks for the information and all.  Ill probably take the advice there and start a new thread up just so its a little cleaner and easier to follow and all.  Pass some links off when I get some things in there for reviewing and all.  Thanks.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Dec 24, 2003)

Heyo Krust.  Mostly just posting to confirm my continued existance.  But I had a question about mythology in general, sort of, and figured I'd ask you just because.  So anyway, I've heard people discuss the idea of a "celestial beuracracy" especially among Asian cultures.  What exactly does that mean?  Any links that explain it?  and to stay semi on-topic if one found the idea sufficiently cool could it work with th IH?  Thanks.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi Shaedun mate! 



			
				Shaedun said:
			
		

> Thanks for the information and all.  I'll probably take the advice there and start a new thread up just so its a little cleaner and easier to follow and all.  Pass some links off when I get some things in there for reviewing and all.  Thanks.




I like the Hellraiser Swords idea you have posted. Are you going to do more specific mechanics for them?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 24, 2003)

Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Heyo Krust.




Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Mostly just posting to confirm my continued existance.




Always glad to hear from you mate.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> But I had a question about mythology in general, sort of, and figured I'd ask you just because.




Okay, I'll help if I can.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> So anyway, I've heard people discuss the idea of a "celestial beuracracy" especially among Asian cultures.  What exactly does that mean?




Essentially the Celestial Bureaucracy was the divine counterpart to the Imperial Bureaucracy which ruled China for thousands of years.

Most cultures envision pantheons as mirrors (albeit generally far more extravagent and grandiose mirrors) of that culture and its political hierarchy.

So the Celestial Bureaucracy is how the Chinese viewed the Heavens, as an extension of their own culture ran in a bureaucratic fashion and ruled by an Emperor. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Any links that explain it?




I cannot find any that go into any great details, sorry.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> and to stay semi on-topic if one found the idea sufficiently cool could it work with the IH?




I think you may be misinterpreting (or reading too much into) what the Celestial Bureaucracy actually is.

Its simply that Pantheistic Hierarchies tend to mirror their mundane (earthly) Governing Bodies...and vice versa (depending on Immanent or Transcendental viewpoints).



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Thanks.




Have a great christmas dude, give my love to the family.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 25, 2003)

*Merry Christmas all!*



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I don't suppose you'd be so forthcoming as to share an example of each one of these? .




I'll give some quick (and hopefully obscure) explanations. 

...of course you never really get a full impression of the powers involved from singular examples, but thats all you're getting. Its only Christmas - its not your birthday as well! 

Epic Feats:

*INEDIA:* You no longer require nourishment to sustain you.

Divine Gifts:

*KARMIC [EFFECT]:* You can choose from ten delivery methods (eg. Breath Weapon; Gaze Weapon; Ray Attack; to name but three) and deal damage straight to a characters EXP total.

Incidently there are 30 different [Effect] gifts spread amongst the various strata of power. Each with ten delivery methods. So thats technically 300 gifts on top of 300+ gifts detailed in the book. 

Cosmic Gifts:

*MOLYMORPH:* You cannot be affected by anything whose shape you mimic.

Transcendant Gifts:

*INDISSOLUBLE:* Fast Healing: Infinity

Omnific Gifts:

*OMNIPOTENT:* okay, looks like we just run out of time.


----------



## Chosen01 (Dec 25, 2003)

Merry Christmas Krusty!!





			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Quote: Originally Posted by *Paragon*
> 
> _What was the final decision on the magic system that you will be using? I'm guessing since ELH is not SRD'd will you work up your own for epic/divine lvl spell-casting?_ ​Yes. However I have designed my magic system in such a way that you can easily convert any spell to the Epic system in a matter of moments.



Is there anything in this thread that resembles your system?


----------



## Anabstercorian (Dec 25, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Epic Feats:
> 
> *INEDIA:* You no longer require nourishment to sustain you.
> 
> ...




That is cool, and by cool I mean * TOTALLY SWEET!!! *


----------



## historian (Dec 25, 2003)

Happy holidays to all!

Thanks for the preview Krust, a very nice Christmas present!  



> Epic Feats:
> 
> INEDIA: You no longer require nourishment to sustain you.




This is cool, a fundamental building block of immortality.  Incidentally, if this could be made available to undead, it might allow a someone to play a non-evil vampire.



> Divine Gifts:
> 
> KARMIC [EFFECT]: You can choose from ten delivery methods (eg. Breath Weapon; Gaze Weapon; Ray Attack; to name but three) and deal damage straight to a characters EXP total.
> 
> Incidently there are 30 different [Effect] gifts spread amongst the various strata of power. Each with ten delivery methods. So thats technically 300 gifts on top of 300+ gifts detailed in the book.




nasty, absolutely nasty if used on conjunction w/a gaze effect.



> Cosmic Gifts:
> 
> MOLYMORPH: You cannot be affected by anything whose shape you mimic.




SWEET, this is like Shang Tsung on steroids!



> Transcendant Gifts:
> 
> INDISSOLUBLE: Fast Healing: Infinity




mwuhahahahahaha -- it's advisable to bring more than your +7 greatsword when tackling somebody w/this.



> Omnific Gifts:
> 
> OMNIPOTENT: okay, looks like we just run out of time.




 , I'm assuming this gift can't be taken multiple times?  


Thanks dude, that's a nice snapshot!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 25, 2003)

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Merry Christmas Krusty!!




Merry Christmas to you and your family Chosen01 mate!  



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Is there anything in this thread that resembles your system?




Well I scanned over the thread in question. The answer is really yes and no. In my Magic System the end results will look similar to the aforementioned ideas however the innovation lies in how you actually get TO the end result. This brings into play six new types of magic.

...of course thats probably me telling you more than you need to know just yet.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 25, 2003)

Merry Christmas Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> That is cool, and by cool I mean * TOTALLY SWEET!!! *




Glad you liked them! 

...although I think the words 'tip' and 'iceberg' fully apply. 

I am hoping to finish up with:

64 Epic Feats
128 Divine Gifts
64 Cosmic Gifts
32 Transcendant Gifts
16 Omnific Gifts

At the moment I am about twenty shy of the epic total. However, the rest are more or less there although there are undoubtedly one or two I am not convinced about, and still a handful with names I am not happy with.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 25, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Happy holidays to all!




Thanks! You too mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks for the preview Krust, a very nice Christmas present!




I would have rather had the book available for you all, but forces ever conspire to get in my way. We'll get there eventually though; and I promise it WILL be worth the wait. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This is cool, a fundamental building block of immortality.  Incidentally, if this could be made available to undead, it might allow a someone to play a non-evil vampire.




Interesting take on it. Incidently that particular epic feat requires another called HIBERNATE* as a prerequisite.

*Okay Krust don't spill all the beans. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> nasty, absolutely nasty if used on conjunction w/a gaze effect.




The damage scales up and down depending on the type of delivery method. So IMMOLATION gives you much more dice than RAY ATTACK which in turn gives  more than AURA for instance.

The delivery method determines the number of dice, whilst the actual effect itself determines the type of dice (for those who remember why elements of the CR/EL system were balanced by dice). 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> SWEET, this is like Shang Tsung on steroids!




"Your soul...IS MINE!" 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> mwuhahahahahaha -- it's advisable to bring more than your +7 greatsword when tackling somebody w/this.




To kill someone like this you have to do all the damage within one round since by the start of the next they are back to full hit points... 

...A bit like the MERCURY GOLEM in the Immortals Handbook then. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm assuming this gift can't be taken multiple times?




Depends on your definition of infinity of course. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks dude, that's a nice snapshot!




You know I really want to tell you guys everything but I fear your eyes would just pop out of your heads if I gave you it all at once!


----------



## blackshirt5 (Dec 25, 2003)

Dammit, I NEED THIS BOOK!

Give it to me before I swallow your soul, Krust!

And Merry Christmas.  I look forward to this very very much, I think it'll help in my conversion of Exalted to D20.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Dec 26, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Dammit, I NEED THIS BOOK!
> 
> Give it to me before I swallow your soul, Krust!
> 
> And Merry Christmas.  I look forward to this very very much, I think it'll help in my conversion of Exalted to D20.




_PLEASE_ make sure that you post the conversion or make it otherwise available when it's ready, right.

Thanks.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Dec 26, 2003)

I know you don't want to give away too much now, but I'll try this anyway.

What I'd really like to know about are the requirements for (typical) divine gifts.  How hard are these, typically, to get; what kinds of requirements do you generally use (long gift chains, high ability scores, accomplishment-types [as assassin PrC's 'kill someone'], large numbers of gifts from earlier levels [epic feats for divine gifts, divine gifts for cosmic], or what?  Is there a set of requirements you could share -- with or without the attached divine gift?


----------



## blackshirt5 (Dec 26, 2003)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> _PLEASE_ make sure that you post the conversion or make it otherwise available when it's ready, right.
> 
> Thanks.



 No problem man; it's one of several weird projects that I'm working on sporadically as inspiration hits(like RIFTS D20, and Werewolf the Apocalypse D20 Modern).


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 27, 2003)

Thanks for the kind words guys! 

Hi CRGreathouse mate!



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I know you don't want to give away too much now, but I'll try this anyway.




Fire away mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What I'd really like to know about are the requirements for (typical) divine gifts. How hard are these, typically, to get; what kinds of requirements do you generally use (long gift chains, high ability scores, accomplishment-types [as assassin PrC's 'kill someone'], large numbers of gifts from earlier levels [epic feats for divine gifts, divine gifts for cosmic], or what?  Is there a set of requirements you could share -- with or without the attached divine gift?




I have really tried to make the Gifts as 'prerequisite lite' as possible, so as to facilitate their use (that is not to say there are no prerequisites, of course there are, but they are appropriate rather than just for their own sake).

I advocate that beings can gain a single Gift beyond what they can choose by expending five slots of previous rank feats/gifts.

eg. An epic character could gain a single Divine Gift by expending five feat slots.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Dec 27, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have really tried to make the Gifts as 'prerequisite lite' as possible, so as to facilitate their use (that is not to say there are no prerequisites, of course there are, but they are appropriate rather than just for their own sake).




So, out of (say) the Gifts you listed, how many require other Gifts and how many have other requirements?  (Is this asking too much?)

Do you require ability scores, like Con for Indissoluble?  How high are requirements, generally, for the various levels of Gifts: Epic, Divine, Cosmic, Transcendant, and Omnific?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 28, 2003)

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 

Sorry for the slow reply I got distracted with something else (I have created another 20 Feats/Gifts over the past 48 hours so hopefully that will shore up the gap in the Epic Feat List I hope to plug.)



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> So, out of (say) the Gifts you listed, how many require other Gifts and how many have other requirements?  (Is this asking too much?)
> 
> Do you require ability scores, like Con for Indissoluble?  How high are requirements, generally, for the various levels of Gifts: Epic, Divine, Cosmic, Transcendant, and Omnific?




Inedia (Epic Feat) requires Hibernate (Epic Feat) as a prerequisite. Hibernate requires CON 24 as a prerequisite.

Karmic [Effect] (Divine Gift) requires no prerequisites. Though you need to have a Divine Gift slot or five Epic Feat slots to choose it.

Molymorph (Cosmic Gift) requires two other Divine Gifts as prerequisites (and I am not going to tell you what they are). 

Indissoluble (Transcendant Gift) requires that you already possess Fast Healing.

Omnipotent (Omnific Gift) requires a Cosmic Gift as a prereq which in turn requires an Epic Feat.


----------



## Cheiromancer (Dec 29, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have designed my magic system in such a way that you can easily convert any spell to the Epic system in a matter of moments.




Since the Gods themselves don't want you to release the IH (it gives away too many of their secrets), is there any chance you could release your magic system separately?  Kinda like your Challenging CR appendix?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 29, 2003)

Hi Cheiromancer mate! 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Since the Gods themselves don't want you to release the IH (it gives away too many of their secrets),




You should know that their are beings beyond _mere_ gods conspiring to finish the work. 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> is there any chance you could release your magic system separately?  Kinda like your Challenging CR appendix?




No.

You'll just have to wait, sorry.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Dec 30, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Inedia (Epic Feat) requires Hibernate (Epic Feat) as a prerequisite. Hibernate requires CON 24 as a prerequisite.
> 
> Karmic [Effect] (Divine Gift) requires no prerequisites. Though you need to have a Divine Gift slot or five Epic Feat slots to choose it.
> 
> ...




Thank you, it's like Christmas all over again!   I have to say, though, that my bones were chilled to the marrow to see an even ability score requirement on your list...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 30, 2003)

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Thank you, it's like Christmas all over again!








			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I have to say, though, that my bones were chilled to the marrow to see an even ability score requirement on your list...




Well my thinking behind that was that a Human can start with an 18 Con and over the course of 20 levels 'naturally' increase that to 23. So I wanted to set it just out of that range.

Though perhaps 23 would suffice just as well.


----------



## historian (Dec 31, 2003)

Hello Krust!

First, I wanted to let you know that the 'mercury golem' sounds cool, kind of reminds me of something like the T-1000s of 'Terminator' lore.

Second, I had a couple of questions re: divinity templates:

1.  You mentioned awhile back that you might reign in some of the numbers for the CRs, and I remember at one point last summer you suggested that 80 quindecillion might be the max, and even said that you had experimented with a CR of 10 to the 214th power (of course, I don't ask this as a practical question _per se_).  Can you shed any light as to where you see this coming out?

2.  I was wondering if you could give some sort of rough idea as to how the CRs for the templates break down proportionally (i.e. 20% gifts and feats, 50% hit dice, etc.).  I am ultimately hoping to get a rough idea of what one would expect to be the ability score range for a CR XYZ deity, and the extent to which your gifts and feats might affect CR.

I'm glad to hear that you've got the epic feats almost worked out, and good luck polishing up the other gifts/feats.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Dec 31, 2003)

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust!




Hi historian mate! 

Happy new year! Unfortunately I have the flu so I am not out celebtrating tonight, but such is life. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> First, I wanted to let you know that the 'mercury golem' sounds cool, kind of reminds me of something like the T-1000s of 'Terminator' lore.




Indeed. Its actually one of Simons creations (one of three in the IH) that I have adapted to 3.5 Ed.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Second, I had a couple of questions re: divinity templates:




Fire away mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 1.  You mentioned awhile back that you might reign in some of the numbers for the CRs, and I remember at one point last summer you suggested that 80 quindecillion might be the max, and even said that you had experimented with a CR of 10 to the 214th power (of course, I don't ask this as a practical question _per se_).  Can you shed any light as to where you see this coming out?




As you noted I have really reigned in the CRs. At the moment there are practical applications still in the tens of thousands with the possibility of expansion to infinity. 

I could probably come up with a new status or two inbetween my current top rank and infinity (an idea I am toying with) but I just don't see that having any practical application.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 2.  I was wondering if you could give some sort of rough idea as to how the CRs for the templates break down proportionally (i.e. 20% gifts and feats, 50% hit dice, etc.).  I am ultimately hoping to get a rough idea of what one would expect to be the ability score range for a CR XYZ deity, and the extent to which your gifts and feats might affect CR.




This is actually a fundamental part of my divine templates (in a bid to keep things simple); so you'll have to forgive me for not going into details now. But the outline is really fluid and you will have no trouble implementing it.

The templates have overarching similarities; then there are more similarities within various strata of power (Immortals; Sidereals; Eternals etc.); then various individual components as needed.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm glad to hear that you've got the epic feats almost worked out, and good luck polishing up the other gifts/feats.




Yeah that all went really quickly once I buried my head in a few books I was able to crank out quite a few in no time at all.


----------



## -Eä- (Jan 1, 2004)

Happy new year to y'all!

Hmm... I was out with the flu this year, as well. I wonder if it has anything to do with a computer transmitted virus? If so, I think we are in real trouble (-; Fortunately I did have a good time despite of my condition.

Hmm... Do you have gifts (or powers) dealing with the fabric of thought patterns in such a way that, for instance if a god decided on changing the basis of mathematics, the fundament on which the science resides is forced to change, and thus forcing the entire cosmos to rediscover the art? This could have interesting consequences (especially when dealing with magic).


----------



## Golem2176 (Jan 1, 2004)

Golem2176 said:
			
		

> Is the handbook out yet? If so where can I find it?




I repeat, is this _book_ out yet?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 1, 2004)

-Eä- said:
			
		

> Happy new year to y'all!




You too mate! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Hmm... I was out with the flu this year, as well. I wonder if it has anything to do with a computer transmitted virus? If so, I think we are in real trouble (-; Fortunately I did have a good time despite of my condition.








			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Hmm... Do you have gifts (or powers) dealing with the fabric of thought patterns in such a way that, for instance if a god decided on changing the basis of mathematics, the fundament on which the science resides is forced to change, and thus forcing the entire cosmos to rediscover the art? This could have interesting consequences (especially when dealing with magic).




Yes, there is a power called VERISIMILITUDE that lets you change reality in anyway you want.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 1, 2004)

Hey Golem mate! 



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> I repeat, is this _book_ out yet?




No. Not yet. Sorry.


----------



## BSF (Jan 3, 2004)

Hi Upper_Krust.

Do you have a projection on when your Immortals Handbook will be available?  Fortunately, the game I am running just started up, so I won't need it for a little while.  But, the more time to plan ...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 3, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Hi Upper_Krust.




Hi there BardStephenFox! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Do you have a projection on when your Immortals Handbook will be available?




I think I could have the first pdf ready by the end of the month or thereabouts *touch wood*.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Fortunately, the game I am running just started up, so I won't need it for a little while.  But, the more time to plan ...




I'll try and finish it as soon as possible.


----------



## Impeesa (Jan 3, 2004)

We all know he means well, but for some reason I always picture Krusty as being much like the guy in the first panel here when someone asks that question:









--Impeesa--


----------



## BSF (Jan 3, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I think I could have the first pdf ready by the end of the month or thereabouts *touch wood*.




That would rock!  I suppose I might have a need for it sooner in the game that I play in, but I am not sure how the DM will be handling all of that. Of course, I could propose to him that we use the Immortals Handbook...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 3, 2004)

Hey Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> We all know he means well, but for some reason I always picture Krusty as being much like the guy in the first panel here when someone asks that question:




Very funny! Cheeky monkey! 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I think I could have the first pdf ready by the end of the month or thereabouts *touch wood*.




...of course I didn't say which month. 




Only joking.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Jan 3, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...of course I didn't say which month.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm sure that it'll be done by the end of January

... I'm just not sure what year.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 3, 2004)

Hi BardStephenFox mate! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> That would rock!  I suppose I might have a need for it sooner in the game that I play in, but I am not sure how the DM will be handling all of that. Of course, I could propose to him that we use the Immortals Handbook...




Well what sort of levels are you guys playing at now?


----------



## BSF (Jan 4, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi BardStephenFox mate!
> Well what sort of levels are you guys playing at now?




Umm, 17th.  Though, there are several things that my character wants to burn experience on.  Admittedly, the other 4 characters might not be as eager to spend experience as I am, so they will probably reach 21st before I will.  I don't really expect us to make those 3-4 levels for several months though.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97 (Jan 4, 2004)

> *Originally posted by U_K!
> I think I could have the first pdf ready by the end of the month or thereabouts *touch wood*.*




*Tries very hard not to get hopes up...*   

Actually I've finished every aspect of my campaign world, with notable exceptions of Immortals, mainly the organization and role of such beings.

Begins to chant....PDF #1...PDF #1...PDF #1...PDF #1...PDF #1...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 4, 2004)

Hey BardStephenFox mate! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Umm, 17th.  Though, there are several things that my character wants to burn experience on.




...of course if you had worhsip points you could 'burn' those instead of experience points. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Admittedly, the other 4 characters might not be as eager to spend experience as I am, so they will probably reach 21st before I will.  I don't really expect us to make those 3-4 levels for several months though.




Close enough to start thinking about things though.


----------



## BSF (Jan 5, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey BardStephenFox mate!



Hey Upper_Krust!  You are always so friendly.  It's cool!  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...of course if you had worhsip points you could 'burn' those instead of experience points.



Admittedly, I have some magic items I want to create, but that isn't all I am looking at burning experience on.  I am also thinking about a school a la FFG's "Path of ..." books.  I am also weighing the probability of talking my DM into allowing me to take a Prestige Race.  Not too sure on that one though.




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Close enough to start thinking about things though.



Definitely true.  I have a tendency to plan my characters a minimum of 4 levels in advance.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 5, 2004)

Hi CRGreathose mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm sure that it'll be done by the end of January
> 
> ... I'm just not sure what year.




Okay - I probably deserve that.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 5, 2004)

Hey Dark Wolf mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> *Tries very hard not to get hopes up...*
> 
> Actually I've finished every aspect of my campaign world, with notable exceptions of Immortals, mainly the organization and role of such beings.
> 
> Begins to chant....PDF #1...PDF #1...PDF #1...PDF #1...PDF #1...




I appreciate the love dude - I'll try my best to make it happen sooner rather than later.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 5, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Hey Upper_Krust!




Hey BardStephenFox mate! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> You are always so friendly.  It's cool!




I would like to think I am a pretty sociable type of person, as I am sure most people on these boards are. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Admittedly, I have some magic items I want to create, but that isn't all I am looking at burning experience on.  I am also thinking about a school a la FFG's "Path of ..." books.  I am also weighing the probability of talking my DM into allowing me to take a Prestige Race.  Not too sure on that one though.




Good luck trying to wrangle those out of him. 

Nothing in the Immortals Handbook should interfere with any possible character progression you take.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Definitely true.  I have a tendency to plan my characters a minimum of 4 levels in advance.




Interesting, are you playing a lawful character I wonder?


----------



## BSF (Jan 5, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey BardStephenFox mate!
> 
> I would like to think I am a pretty sociable type of person, as I am sure most people on these boards are.



Agreed.  The people here are great.    You just go more out of your way than many of us do.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Interesting, are you playing a lawful character I wonder?




Nope.  But my character is rather odd.  

Long digression on a character commencing ...

I have 7 levels of Bard, 3 of Rogue, 4 of a home-brew PrC, and now 3 of Druid.  I have grown this character very organically.  Early on, the 4 skill points/level that a Bard gets was not quite enough skill points to do what I wanted, so I multiclassed w/ Rogue for a bit.  Once I had the base skills down, I was able to start focusing on a few key skills.  Heck, at this point the levels in rogue are a nuisance.  However, the group doesn't have another rogue (that player left and we replaced him with a monk) so the trapfinding occasionally becomes useful.  Over time, he has been trying to moderate his rebelliousness and fierce independence.  This became a bit easier when the party actually journeyed to a Sacred place where we could hear part of the Song of Creation.  It also allowed me to create a PrC that would reflect what that experience meant for the character.  Mucho fun!  Being fairly urban, he has had a growing appreciation for the wilds.  Obviously, the party Druid and Ranger have helped in this regard, but mostly the Druid.  He finally gave in and has sought more balance in his life by taking levels of Druid.

Coupled with all of this is the fact that early on in the game, we located a strange looking set of bracers and a matching torc.  Though he was the first person to caution everyone about touching them, my character was also the first to give in to his curiosity and put them on.  Interesting decision.  It turns out that the Torc and Bracers are a set of artifacts that have not been seen for 800+ years, when the last Taoiseach disappeared.  (See any Celtic themes here?)  It seems that the bard is now the Taoiseach and will be responsible for finding and naming the new Ard Righ, preferrably before the armies if darkness conquer everything.  Of course, only the most paranoid people see that all these disparate events occurring around the world might be connected and related.  Right now, we are nothing more than high-powered conspiracy theorists, so banding everyone together is far from easy.  Stephen has a pretty good idea of what he is fighting to protect, both in terms of the "civilized" races and in terms of the rest of the natural world (thanks to the Druid levels), and he is determined to prevent some of the mistakes from previous millenia from happening again.  (Such as the slaughter of the fey since they wouldn't choose sides in past conflicts.)

It has been a long game, and it looks like it will be longer yet.  So, I am looking forward to some Epic level goodness.  But, there are a lot of aspects to my character that I try to bring out by his class/skill/feat choices.  I also try to be somewhat careful to not make him too ineffective.  I mean, taking 3 levels of Druid, starting at 14th level, is not an optimized choice.  It makes sense for the character, but I work very hard to make sure my choices are not huge burdens for the rest of the party.  So, my long term planning for the character is mostly damage control.  It is hard to play a somewhat unfocused character when you know your choices are killing some of your class abilities.  The rest of my planning is to look at the things my character is experiencing, and thinking, and try to find good matches that are reflected in his choices.  

OK, that was probably way more than anyone wanted to know.  But, it has been on my mind lately and this was the trigger for me to let it out somewhat.    Anyway, I have found it far more interesting to grow a character up in levels rather than start at a higher level and go from there.  I am excited about the Immortals Handbook because I think you will have more choices in there that will be interesting for my character.  The Epic Level Handbook is nice enough, but for my character, I can't find many things that seem to fit his "flavor".


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 6, 2004)

Hi BardStephenFox mate! 

Unfortunately the boards wouldn't let me in last night - hence the longer than usual delay. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Agreed.  The people here are great.




They certainly are, this is a very friendly community.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> You just go more out of your way than many of us do.




Well it would be the height of rudeness for me to ignore people asking questions about a book I am writing.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Nope.  But my character is rather odd.
> 
> Long digression on a character commencing ...
> 
> I have 7 levels of Bard, 3 of Rogue, 4 of a home-brew PrC, and now 3 of Druid.




Many people consider multi-class characters to be notably weaker than single class characters.

I'm curious how your group have been finding high-level play?



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> I have grown this character very organically.  Early on, the 4 skill points/level that a Bard gets was not quite enough skill points to do what I wanted, so I multiclassed w/ Rogue for a bit.  Once I had the base skills down, I was able to start focusing on a few key skills.  Heck, at this point the levels in rogue are a nuisance.  However, the group doesn't have another rogue (that player left and we replaced him with a monk) so the trapfinding occasionally becomes useful.




I have an epic feat in the IH that should specifically address the above problem, but I don't want to spoil the surprise at this point.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Over time, he has been trying to moderate his rebelliousness and fierce independence.  This became a bit easier when the party actually journeyed to a Sacred place where we could hear part of the Song of Creation.  It also allowed me to create a PrC that would reflect what that experience meant for the character.  Mucho fun!  Being fairly urban, he has had a growing appreciation for the wilds.  Obviously, the party Druid and Ranger have helped in this regard, but mostly the Druid.  He finally gave in and has sought more balance in his life by taking levels of Druid.




...and is that now the path you hope to tread over the next few levels; Druid? Or is the Prestige Race or (FFG) 'School of' idea next on the agenda?



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Coupled with all of this is the fact that early on in the game, we located a strange looking set of bracers and a matching torc.  Though he was the first person to caution everyone about touching them, my character was also the first to give in to his curiosity and put them on.  Interesting decision.  It turns out that the Torc and Bracers are a set of artifacts that have not been seen for 800+ years, when the last Taoiseach disappeared.  (See any Celtic themes here?)




Indeed. Incidently the Celtic Pantheon should be the first pantheon I tackle in the 'Immortals Index'.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> It seems that the bard is now the Taoiseach and will be responsible for finding and naming the new Ard Righ, preferrably before the armies if darkness conquer everything.  Of course, only the most paranoid people see that all these disparate events occurring around the world might be connected and related.  Right now, we are nothing more than high-powered conspiracy theorists, so banding everyone together is far from easy.  Stephen has a pretty good idea of what he is fighting to protect, both in terms of the "civilized" races and in terms of the rest of the natural world (thanks to the Druid levels), and he is determined to prevent some of the mistakes from previous millenia from happening again.  (Such as the slaughter of the fey since they wouldn't choose sides in past conflicts.)




Sounds like big things are afoot.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> It has been a long game, and it looks like it will be longer yet.  So, I am looking forward to some Epic level goodness.  But, there are a lot of aspects to my character that I try to bring out by his class/skill/feat choices.  I also try to be somewhat careful to not make him too ineffective.  I mean, taking 3 levels of Druid, starting at 14th level, is not an optimized choice.  It makes sense for the character, but I work very hard to make sure my choices are not huge burdens for the rest of the party.  So, my long term planning for the character is mostly damage control.  It is hard to play a somewhat unfocused character when you know your choices are killing some of your class abilities.  The rest of my planning is to look at the things my character is experiencing, and thinking, and try to find good matches that are reflected in his choices.




Its difficult to anticipate where your character wants to go, but I think I will have a Prestige Class or two that _might_ interest you.  



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> OK, that was probably way more than anyone wanted to know.  But, it has been on my mind lately and this was the trigger for me to let it out somewhat.








			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Anyway, I have found it far more interesting to grow a character up in levels rather than start at a higher level and go from there.




Absolutely.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> I am excited about the Immortals Handbook because I think you will have more choices in there that will be interesting for my character.




I hope so too - I already have visions of your character perhaps gaining and combining the Music and Nature portfolios?

Just incase there are any aspects of the genre I have missed in the Immortals Handbook (I don't think so but you never know?); are there any things in the Immortals Handbook that people would like to see that they don't already know are included? That goes out to everyone by the way. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> The Epic Level Handbook is nice enough, but for my character, I can't find many things that seem to fit his "flavor".




Some people seem to think the (epic) Feats and Prestige Classes were a bit sterile in that book.


----------



## BSF (Jan 7, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi BardStephenFox mate!
> 
> Unfortunately the boards wouldn't let me in last night - hence the longer than usual delay.




No worries.  When I tried to reply today, the boards went into ultra slow mode.  I decided to wait until I could reply from home.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Many people consider multi-class characters to be notably weaker than single class characters.
> 
> I'm curious how your group have been finding high-level play?




Indeed!  When my players bring up multi-classing, I discuss with them the concept of sacrificing depth of abilities for breadth.  It is difficult to multi-class into something extremely focused, except in those instances where you get class synergy on the way to a focused PrC.  Stephen is certainly not optimized for combat.  He is good at performing with a +22 on Sing, and he is great at Diplomacy with a +26.  Though, I still need to top off the ranks of Diplomacy.  However, he is still very versatile and does a good job and helping the party by covering a wide area of things.  He is OK at doing a lot of things. 

As for high-level play, it has been ... interesting.  This game is different in that regard since the PC's are paupers compared to the book treasure charts.  Between 5 characters, we have 3 magical weapons.  Stephen easily has the most magic and that is because he keeps creating equipment for himself.  I have run games with characters up to 15th level and high level characters can do quite a bit.  The capabilities of the group I am playing in are pretty strong.  However, we have not truly had a chance to flex our muscle so to speak.  The DM is trying to keep the challenge, while recovering from our lack of treasure.  Storywise, it all makes sense, but I think the DM is having to spend more time re-assessing encounters because we do not have the equipment to overcome high DR and that sort of thing.  For me, high-level play has been kind of fun because my character is less optimized.  I constantly try to make my abilities work to our advantage.  Things like using Ghost Sound to create the noise of a Dire Tiger nearby to see if I can cause our opponents to divide their attention for even 1 round.  I also focus more on characterization and roleplay.  It is fun to write up personal journals marvelling at the destrictive power my companions wield and hoping I am not a liability while blithely ignoring the fact that we easily speak with kings, barons, guild masters, etc because my Diplomacy is so dang high.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have an epic feat in the IH that should specifically address the above problem, but I don't want to spoil the surprise at this point.



Doh!  OK, I'll be patient.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...and is that now the path you hope to tread over the next few levels; Druid? Or is the Prestige Race or (FFG) 'School of' idea next on the agenda?




Well, right now I am in min/max mode.  We have 3 more levels before Epic rules change BAB and Save bonuses.  For 18th, I will probably pick up my 8th level of Bard.  The skill points will help me top my Perform ranks off, I will get a BAB increase, an increase to REF and WILL, and I will improve my Inspire Courage.  It's an all-around win.  After that, I will probably dump the next two levels into my PrC.  

My DM has a few custom schools that we haven't yet found.  One of those might be interesting to work with, we will see.  There is also supposed to be something special we have to do to reach Epic levels.  I'm not sure what that entails yet.  So, I am looking at possible ways to use that Exp if it is a quest that we are ill-positioned to pursue at the time it comes up.  Long term, Stephen will take more levels of Druid.  A lot will depend on how things shake out down the road in the game.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Indeed. Incidently the Celtic Pantheon should be the first pantheon I tackle in the 'Immortals Index'.




Very cool!  Will you include some of the heroes as well as deities?



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Its difficult to anticipate where your character wants to go, but I think I will have a Prestige Class or two that _might_ interest you.



Really?  I find that intriguing.  He is kind of a wacky build, so it sounds like you have some interesting thoughts.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I hope so too - I already have visions of your character perhaps gaining and combining the Music and Nature portfolios?




OK, that is a wonderful teaser!    It sounds very interesting and that would really fit where some of his focus is going.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Just incase there are any aspects of the genre I have missed in the Immortals Handbook (I don't think so but you never know?); are there any things in the Immortals Handbook that people would like to see that they don't already know are included? That goes out to everyone by the way.




Sure, I'll throw in a few more questions.  

How feasible would it be to use the Immortals Handbook to build some of the same stle characters that you see in the Silmarillion?  What if I want to play somebody like Fingolfin, who personally fights Morgoth and wounds him 7 times?  Or a character such as Beren who crossed Ered Gorgoroth and Nan Dungortheb?  Or Luthien, whose song and spells were so powerful as to defeat Sauron and overcome Carcharoth and Morgoth?  Tolkien had some powerful characters in the earlier ages of Middle Earth.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Some people seem to think the (epic) Feats and Prestige Classes were a bit sterile in that book.



Uninspired comes to my mind.  Very little that is truly Epic, a lot that is just bigger.  I do like the feats such as Positive Energy Aura.  It makes sense that a Cleric might be so infused with the energy of her deity that undead cannot even come close to them.  Epic spellcasting seemed to have so much potential in the teasers, but the implementation just left me feeling Blah.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 7, 2004)

Hey BArdStephenFox mate! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> No worries.  When I tried to reply today, the boards went into ultra slow mode.  I decided to wait until I could reply from home.




I was busy for most of the day with personal stuff, hence the delay. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Indeed!  When my players bring up multi-classing, I discuss with them the concept of sacrificing depth of abilities for breadth.  It is difficult to multi-class into something extremely focused, except in those instances where you get class synergy on the way to a focused PrC.  Stephen is certainly not optimized for combat.  He is good at performing with a +22 on Sing, and he is great at Diplomacy with a +26.  Though, I still need to top off the ranks of Diplomacy.  However, he is still very versatile and does a good job and helping the party by covering a wide area of things.  He is OK at doing a lot of things.
> 
> As for high-level play, it has been ... interesting.  This game is different in that regard since the PC's are paupers compared to the book treasure charts.  Between 5 characters, we have 3 magical weapons.




Now thats interesting; perhaps my Challenge Rating/Encounter Level Rules in the Immortals Handbook will help your DM make allowances for any treasure discrepancies.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Stephen easily has the most magic and that is because he keeps creating equipment for himself.  I have run games with characters up to 15th level and high level characters can do quite a bit.  The capabilities of the group I am playing in are pretty strong.  However, we have not truly had a chance to flex our muscle so to speak.  The DM is trying to keep the challenge, while recovering from our lack of treasure.  Storywise, it all makes sense, but I think the DM is having to spend more time re-assessing encounters because we do not have the equipment to overcome high DR and that sort of thing.  For me, high-level play has been kind of fun because my character is less optimized.  I constantly try to make my abilities work to our advantage.  Things like using Ghost Sound to create the noise of a Dire Tiger nearby to see if I can cause our opponents to divide their attention for even 1 round.  I also focus more on characterization and roleplay.  It is fun to write up personal journals marvelling at the destrictive power my companions wield and hoping I am not a liability while blithely ignoring the fact that we easily speak with kings, barons, guild masters, etc because my Diplomacy is so dang high.




The main idea is to enjoy yourselves, which you seem to be doing. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Well, right now I am in min/max mode.  We have 3 more levels before Epic rules change BAB and Save bonuses.  For 18th, I will probably pick up my 8th level of Bard.  The skill points will help me top my Perform ranks off, I will get a BAB increase, an increase to REF and WILL, and I will improve my Inspire Courage.  It's an all-around win.  After that, I will probably dump the next two levels into my PrC.




I could tell you some horror stories about min/maxing I have read about from a few people on other message boards: 24th-level characters defeating a dragonflight of Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons; Cohorts with all their ability scores over 100; that sort of thing. 

By comparison what other people call min/maxing seems positively pedestrian.  



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> My DM has a few custom schools that we haven't yet found.  One of those might be interesting to work with, we will see.  There is also supposed to be something special we have to do to reach Epic levels.  I'm not sure what that entails yet.  So, I am looking at possible ways to use that Exp if it is a quest that we are ill-positioned to pursue at the time it comes up.  Long term, Stephen will take more levels of Druid.  A lot will depend on how things shake out down the road in the game.




Considering the Celtic theme does your DM refer to various Celtic Gods I wonder?



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Very cool!  Will you include some of the heroes as well as deities?




Yes; I have four heroes already 'pencilled in'.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Really?  I find that intriguing.  He is kind of a wacky build, so it sounds like you have some interesting thoughts.




Well, I don't know if this makes sense but my Prestige Classes are at the same time 'general' and 'specific'.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> OK, that is a wonderful teaser!    It sounds very interesting and that would really fit where some of his focus is going.




Well there are 48 Portfolios to choose from as well as rules for creating your own. So there should be something in those alone for everyone.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Sure, I'll throw in a few more questions.
> 
> How feasible would it be to use the Immortals Handbook to build some of the same stle characters that you see in the Silmarillion?  What if I want to play somebody like Fingolfin, who personally fights Morgoth and wounds him 7 times?  Or a character such as Beren who crossed Ered Gorgoroth and Nan Dungortheb?  Or Luthien, whose song and spells were so powerful as to defeat Sauron and overcome Carcharoth and Morgoth?  Tolkien had some powerful characters in the earlier ages of Middle Earth.




Well to be honest I am not well enough versed in the Silmarillion to be able to comment on that accurately.

I was recommended the Silmarillion when I was very young (just after I had read the Hobbit) and I never really warmed to it (its hardly easy reading). In fact that put me off reading the Lord of the Rings for many, many years. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Uninspired comes to my mind.  Very little that is truly Epic, a lot that is just bigger.  I do like the feats such as Positive Energy Aura.  It makes sense that a Cleric might be so infused with the energy of her deity that undead cannot even come close to them.  Epic spellcasting seemed to have so much potential in the teasers, but the implementation just left me feeling Blah.




Well I hope I have a number of ideas that can inspire your campaign to greater things.


----------



## BSF (Jan 8, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey BArdStephenFox mate!
> I was busy for most of the day with personal stuff, hence the delay.




Hey Upper_Krust.  Busy times at work for me.  I am finding that I am delegating this conversation to home posts so I can think about it thoroughly.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Now thats interesting; perhaps my Challenge Rating/Encounter Level Rules in the Immortals Handbook will help your DM make allowances for any treasure discrepancies.




That is an interesting thought!  I admit that in my games I do not follow the book formulas either.  I hadn't thought of using your CR system to rescale encounters.  Hmm, that is very interesting...



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The main idea is to enjoy yourselves, which you seem to be doing.




Yes and yes!  It actually makes me sad when I see other people post that they are not having fun in their games.  When that happens, everyone needs to take a break, of some sort, and come back to the game when they can have fun.  My DM has been running for 2 1/2 years without really taking a break.  Every so often, I check with him to make sure he is having fun too.  If he ever needs a break, we can certainly find something to do while he recovers.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I could tell you some horror stories about min/maxing I have read about from a few people on other message boards: 24th-level characters defeating a dragonflight of Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons; Cohorts with all their ability scores over 100; that sort of thing.
> 
> By comparison what other people call min/maxing seems positively pedestrian.



OK, I'll grant you that.  Sometimes I feel a bit bad when I drop into metagame mode too much.  It comes from being a DM for 23 years I think.  I can look at our group and point out half a dozen weaknesses that could be exploited.  As I start to gear up for how to cover those weaknesses, I can usually tell myself to calm down.  The characters should have weaknesses of some sort.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Considering the Celtic theme does your DM refer to various Celtic Gods I wonder?



A lot of his mythology was lifted wholesale from the Silmarillion.  He designed much of the campaign world over 20 years ago.  The Celtic gods certainly exist in some form, but it is not yet clear to me how accurate they are to the Celtic mythos.  I'm sure my character could answer that better (since he has 6 ranks of Knowledge (Brehon Law)) but we will discover more of that culture as the game progresses.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yes; I have four heroes already 'pencilled in'.



Excellent! 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well, I don't know if this makes sense but my Prestige Classes are at the same time 'general' and 'specific'.



I _think_ I understand what you are trying to convey.  I am sure it will all be much clearer once you make it available.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well there are 48 Portfolios to choose from as well as rules for creating your own. So there should be something in those alone for everyone.




Oh my!  And Music and Nature are two of them.    Exactly how are Portfolios going to work?  Can you explain it without giving too much away?  (My apologies if you have answered this before.  I am a new addition to the conversation.)



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well to be honest I am not well enough versed in the Silmarillion to be able to comment on that accurately.
> 
> I was recommended the Silmarillion when I was very young (just after I had read the Hobbit) and I never really warmed to it (its hardly easy reading). In fact that put me off reading the Lord of the Rings for many, many years.




Fair enough, though I am sorry to hear it.  I really enjoyed the Silmarillion.  In fact, I have been rereading it just this week.  Not a problem though.  Since Tolkien borrowed so much from mythology, it is quite likely you could replicate the battles of the First Age of Middle Earth.  




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I hope I have a number of ideas that can inspire your campaign to greater things.




I'm sure you will.  Even the little bit I already know has given me new thoughts for my campaigns.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 8, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Hey Upper_Krust.




Hi BardStephenFox mate! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Busy times at work for me.  I am finding that I am delegating this conversation to home posts so I can think about it thoroughly.




I'm trying that routine out too.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> That is an interesting thought!  I admit that in my games I do not follow the book formulas either.  I hadn't thought of using your CR system to rescale encounters.  Hmm, that is very interesting...








			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Yes and yes!  It actually makes me sad when I see other people post that they are not having fun in their games.  When that happens, everyone needs to take a break, of some sort, and come back to the game when they can have fun.  My DM has been running for 2 1/2 years without really taking a break.  Every so often, I check with him to make sure he is having fun too.  If he ever needs a break, we can certainly find something to do while he recovers.




Good idea.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> OK, I'll grant you that.  Sometimes I feel a bit bad when I drop into metagame mode too much.  It comes from being a DM for 23 years I think.  I can look at our group and point out half a dozen weaknesses that could be exploited.  As I start to gear up for how to cover those weaknesses, I can usually tell myself to calm down.  The characters should have weaknesses of some sort.




That works as long as the enemies have weaknesses too.  



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> A lot of his mythology was lifted wholesale from the Silmarillion.  He designed much of the campaign world over 20 years ago.  The Celtic gods certainly exist in some form, but it is not yet clear to me how accurate they are to the Celtic mythos.  I'm sure my character could answer that better (since he has 6 ranks of Knowledge (Brehon Law)) but we will discover more of that culture as the game progresses.








			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Excellent!




Well I think its two heroes and two villains of the Celtic Mythos.  



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> I _think_ I understand what you are trying to convey.  I am sure it will all be much clearer once you make it available.




I hope so too. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Oh my!  And Music and Nature are two of them.




Yep.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Exactly how are Portfolios going to work?  Can you explain it without giving too much away?




Yes, they are Templates.

So when you become a deity the DM chooses one portfolio for your character that they think best personifies the character. The player then gets to choose one for themselves. So its possible to have the same Portfolio twice 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> (My apologies if you have answered this before.  I am a new addition to the conversation.)




No apologies necessary mate. I can never remember all the questions anyway.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Fair enough, though I am sorry to hear it.  I really enjoyed the Silmarillion.  In fact, I have been rereading it just this week.  Not a problem though.  Since Tolkien borrowed so much from mythology, it is quite likely you could replicate the battles of the First Age of Middle Earth.




I am sure I will take another crack at it in a few months when I have some spare time, the Lord of the Rings movies have left me wanting more.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> I'm sure you will.  Even the little bit I already know has given me new thoughts for my campaigns.




Thats the plan.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Jan 10, 2004)

How's the IH coming so far?  I know you don't like to give out target dates... but how much have you typed up so far?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 10, 2004)

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> How's the IH coming so far?  I know you don't like to give out target dates... but how much have you typed up so far?




Well I probably have anywhere between one third to nine tenths depending on the chapter.

I think I should be able to put two of the chapters to bed this week.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Jan 12, 2004)

"Say Goodnight, Gracie."

"Goodnight, Gracie"


----------



## CRGreathouse (Jan 14, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I probably have anywhere between one third to nine tenths depending on the chapter.
> 
> I think I should be able to put two of the chapters to bed this week.




Good.  I hate to bother you, distracting you from getting more finished... but I always need to know your progress so I don't wake up in th middle of the night in a cold sweat screaming, "He's canceled it, he's canceled it!"


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 14, 2004)

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Good.  I hate to bother you, distracting you from getting more finished...




Thats okay mate, I am trying to ration my time on the boards at the moment to get things moving along a bit more swiftly...with mixed success.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> but I always need to know your progress so I don't wake up in th middle of the night in a cold sweat screaming, "He's canceled it, he's canceled it!"




I don't think theres much chance of that.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Jan 20, 2004)

Hey U_K!  I hoped that I would be able to delay this day until I had a copy of your book in my hands... but campaigns go on, sometimes faster than we expect.  One of my characters is just moments away from his apotheosis... and we don't have rules to cover it.  It's OK at the moment; he's away from the party, and DM handwaving will work for a while.  After that, though, I'm using D&Dg to handle it, since those are the only do-it-yourself divine rules I have to work with: the IH isn't out yet, and The Divine and the Defeated doesn't have an explained metasystem.

I would like to make the character as compatible as possible with the IH rules, though, so it'll be easier to convert when the time comes.  In particular, I'd like to know about portfolios.

The character in question is an archer, a devout worshipper of Nike, the goddess of victory (divine rank 6, a weak Lesser Deity; LG, but historically LN).  The character is a Cleric12/Divine Agent9 or so, and has (almost) gained sponsorship from Nike.

So far, I've considered making his area of control "arrogance" -- in his religion, false modesty is a sin, and it's not one he's ever been guilty of.  This portfolio wouldn't include hubris, the overextention of arrogance and pride; it would include only rightful pride taken to its extreme.

Is there any good way to do this?  Do you have any suggestions that would work for the character?  He's an archer, a military strategist (having won a significant battle earlier in his career), and a successful diplomat (having 'won' a nation's freedom, in a sense).


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 20, 2004)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya CRGreathouse matey! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I hoped that I would be able to delay this day until I had a copy of your book in my hands... but campaigns go on, sometimes faster than we expect.  One of my characters is just moments away from his apotheosis... and we don't have rules to cover it.




I feel terrible about the prolonged delay. I can only say that I have since learned my lesson (not to overstretch myself) and after this it won't happen again.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> It's OK at the moment; he's away from the party, and DM handwaving will work for a while.  After that, though, I'm using D&Dg to handle it, since those are the only do-it-yourself divine rules I have to work with: the IH isn't out yet, and The Divine and the Defeated doesn't have an explained metasystem.








			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I would like to make the character as compatible as possible with the IH rules, though, so it'll be easier to convert when the time comes.  In particular, I'd like to know about portfolios.




Okay.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The character in question is an archer, a devout worshipper of Nike, the goddess of victory (divine rank 6, a weak Lesser Deity; LG, but historically LN).  The character is a Cleric12/Divine Agent9 or so, and has (almost) gained sponsorship from Nike.




Fair enough.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> So far, I've considered making his area of control "arrogance" -- in his religion, false modesty is a sin, and it's not one he's ever been guilty of.  This portfolio wouldn't include hubris, the overextention of arrogance and pride; it would include only rightful pride taken to its extreme.
> 
> Is there any good way to do this?




Well the simplest way would be to create an Arrogance Portfolio. 

I must admit I don't have one in the IH (thats not one of the 48), but I do have rules for creating your own which are fairly easy to follow.

I also advocate that when creating any Portfolio you create an exact opposite Portfolio...a nemesis Portfolio if you will. So if you created an Arrogance Portfolio you might also create a Humility Portfolio.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Do you have any suggestions that would work for the character?  He's an archer, a military strategist (having won a significant battle earlier in his career), and a successful diplomat (having 'won' a nation's freedom, in a sense).




There are so many potential options that I could make any number of suggestions.   

I generally advocate the player chooses one Portfolio and the DM chooses the other.

Personally I could see an 'Arrogance' Portfolio working well with the 'Good' Portfolio.

Then you could concoct a nemesis who had the 'Humility' Portfolio and the 'Evil' Portfolio...unusual mix that. Hes evil, but he doesn't like to boast about it. In fact he could be a hidden evil that lurks in the shadows, even other gods may not have heard of him. 

Player: "I am the vanguard of victory! The strategist supreme! The archer without equal! Who are you evil one?"

Nemesis: "No one of consequence."

I'm thinking he could be called Anonimaz...what do you think?

Don't know if any of that helps? Sometimes I just go off on a tangent.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Jan 20, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya CRGreathouse matey!
> 
> 
> 
> I feel terrible about the prolonged delay. I can only say that I have since learned my lesson (not to overstretch myself) and after this it won't happen again.




Don't take it the wrong way, I'm quite happy with what I've seen of your work so far, and I'd certainly prefer that you do it right instead of rushing it.  I was just asking for conversion ideas... I don't want to end up 'revising' history when I get the IH.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well the simplest way would be to create an Arrogance Portfolio.
> 
> I must admit I don't have one in the IH (thats not one of the 48), but I do have rules for creating your own which are fairly easy to follow.
> 
> I also advocate that when creating any Portfolio you create an exact opposite Portfolio...a nemesis Portfolio if you will. So if you created an Arrogance Portfolio you might also create a Humility Portfolio.




So making new portfolios works?  Good.  (You'll excuse the sentiment, I hope; without knowing how portfolios work in the IH, I can't tell if the system can stretch.  There's plenty of room for new domains, for example, but no room for more alignments, really.  I couldn't tell if it would work more like the former or the latter; open or closed, if you will.)



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> There are so many potential options that I could make any number of suggestions.
> 
> I generally advocate the player chooses one Portfolio and the DM chooses the other.
> 
> ...




That is truly a brilliant idea.  I absolutely love this... especially the idea for the nemesis.  Now I really can't wait for the IH!

Evil and humility, what fun.  I'll have to use that whenever I get a chance.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 20, 2004)

Hello again mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Don't take it the wrong way, I'm quite happy with what I've seen of your work so far, and I'd certainly prefer that you do it right instead of rushing it.




I appreciate the support mate, I assure you it will be worth the wait. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I was just asking for conversion ideas... I don't want to end up 'revising' history when I get the IH.




That shouldn't really be a problem.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> So making new portfolios works?  Good.  (You'll excuse the sentiment, I hope; without knowing how portfolios work in the IH, I can't tell if the system can stretch.  There's plenty of room for new domains, for example, but no room for more alignments, really.  I couldn't tell if it would work more like the former or the latter; open or closed, if you will.)




Yes. There was never anyway I could detail every possible Portfolio so I have left it at 48 with rules on how to create your own.

Some Portfolios may of course be simply variations on existing Portfolios or more specific sub-Portfolios.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> That is truly a brilliant idea.  I absolutely love this... especially the idea for the nemesis.  Now I really can't wait for the IH!




Well there are dozens of ideas in the IH for making character creation or adventure hooks automatic extensions of the rules.

As well as the Nemesis idea there is also the Council idea, whereupon you have deities grouped by Portfolio. So you have the Aetnean Council (all Fire deities) or the Council of Undeath, etc.

So as well as just Pantheon interaction you can have Council interaction. You can also belong to both Pantheons and Councils; so you get that conflict of interests.

Of course then you have your racial Pantheons; and your ethical Pantheons and then your dimensional hierarchies but no point going into all that now, I've probably said too much already.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Evil and humility, what fun.  I'll have to use that whenever I get a chance.




Glad I could help mate!


----------



## Clay_More (Jan 21, 2004)

Hey Krust

I was just wondering, are the any added benefits of having the same portfolio twice? Has each Portfolio got a description for what happens if it is taken a second time?

Given any thought to how you will incorporate the weaknesses found in many divine entities from existing myth so that they can be transferred to D&D? I am referring to such things as the weak heel of Achille's or Balder's vulnerability to Misteltoe (which could be handled with a simple DR -/Mistletoe, but still). 

I thought of the weaknesses when BardStephen talked about the weakness of characters earlier. To a deity, it is a rather colorful addition, as long as the weakness doesn't make him too easy to slay. I have yet to see a D&D deity (as far as I know) that has a weakness similar to mythological figures.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 21, 2004)

Clay_More said:
			
		

> Hey Krust




Hiya mate! 

I actually tried posting earlier but the boards were not responding. 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> I was just wondering, are the any added benefits of having the same portfolio twice? Has each Portfolio got a description for what happens if it is taken a second time?




Yes.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> Given any thought to how you will incorporate the weaknesses found in many divine entities from existing myth so that they can be transferred to D&D?




Yes, I am developing weaknesses as well, I think they are looking fairly good at the moment, but they need a bit more testing.

They work like negative Gifts.



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> I am referring to such things as the weak heel of Achille's or Balder's vulnerability to Misteltoe (which could be handled with a simple DR -/Mistletoe, but still).




Both of those powers can be found amongst the Divine Gifts in one form or another. 



			
				Clay_More said:
			
		

> I thought of the weaknesses when BardStephen talked about the weakness of characters earlier. To a deity, it is a rather colorful addition, as long as the weakness doesn't make him too easy to slay. I have yet to see a D&D deity (as far as I know) that has a weakness similar to mythological figures.




Well as I see it the only way to balance weaknesses is to counterbalance them with Gifts.

eg. You can take one weakness and two gifts instead of a single gift.

I haven't decided on the parameters of this though, possibly a maximum of one weakness per status. I'm still reviewing this.


----------



## Orco42 (Jan 22, 2004)

Hi UK!

Just come back to the boards from a long break. And I am very glad to see that you are still at it.

Just wanted to know if you had any ETA for completion of the IH (i've scanned the last few pages and fit looks as if you are close).

I've had a player on a quest to become a goddess for almost a year of real time and she is getting close to completion. Just wondering if I should try to stretch it out longer to wait for IH or use D&Dg until it comes out.

Thanks!

ps. If I were a female I would have your baby. But since I am not I guess I'll just have to name my first born after you.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 22, 2004)

Orco42 said:
			
		

> Hi UK!
> 
> Just come back to the boards from a long break.




Hi Orco42 matey!!! 

Long time no see, I trust you have been keeping well?



			
				Orco42 said:
			
		

> And I am very glad to see that you are still at it.




Well I really should have had it finished by now. 



			
				Orco42 said:
			
		

> Just wanted to know if you had any ETA for completion of the IH (i've scanned the last few pages and fit looks as if you are close).




Close-ish.

I have an idea when it will be finished but I don't like getting burnt by saying when, so essentially it will be ready when its ready. 



			
				Orco42 said:
			
		

> I've had a player on a quest to become a goddess for almost a year of real time and she is getting close to completion. Just wondering if I should try to stretch it out longer to wait for IH or use D&Dg until it comes out.




Well, my rules are far better than anything in that book. Also you have to remember that they don't really have any rules for apotheosis in D&Dg anyway.

There are various quests you have to go on to obtain divinity (as well as gaining worship points); so you could use either Pantheon quests; Portfolio Quests (among others) as a stalling measure.



			
				Orco42 said:
			
		

> Thanks!




Anytime mate! Good to hear from you again. 



			
				Orco42 said:
			
		

> ps. If I were a female I would have your baby. But since I am not I guess I'll just have to name my first born after you.




'Upper' sounds a bit of a weird name, not sure if you should inflict that on a kid.


----------



## Chosen01 (Jan 22, 2004)

Hey Krust, did you see the news today? There will be an SRD update this week but it's not clear if there is any new material added. Will you revise the IH again if the ELH and/or D&DG enters the SRD?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 23, 2004)

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Hey Krust,




Hi Chosen01 mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> did you see the news today? There will be an SRD update this week but it's not clear if there is any new material added.




Yes its a little ambiguous as to whats being updated. It doesn't look like the ELH will be going in as yet.



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Will you revise the IH again if the ELH and/or D&DG enters the SRD?




Not to any great extent (in fact almost none at this point), it would mean I could better refer to certain areas but other than the full list of epic feats to draw upon for my examples it won't impact the IH very much.


----------



## Chosen01 (Jan 23, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> It doesn't look like the ELH will be going in as yet.



Andy Smith has already confirmed that...

"The SRD is being updated to include material from the Epic Level Handbook..."

Source


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jan 23, 2004)

Hi Chosen01 mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Andy Smith has already confirmed that...
> 
> "The SRD is being updated to include material from the Epic Level Handbook..."
> 
> Source




Ah yes, very interesting.


----------



## Chosen01 (Jan 23, 2004)

Hi, It's me again. I just thought that the Messiah should give the doubting Thomas’s (Serge & Selah) at Dicefreaks a visit (look in the Dicefreaks Iconic Characters thread in the Publishing Discussion forum)


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 23, 2004)

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Hi, It's me again.




Hiya mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> I just thought that the Messiah should give the doubting Thomas’s (Serge & Selah) at Dicefreaks a visit (look in the Dicefreaks Iconic Characters thread in the Publishing Discussion forum)




Okay, there is no 'Publishing Discussion Forum' and I can't find any thread called 'Dicefreaks Iconic Characters'.

So perhaps you would help me out with a link?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jan 24, 2004)

Hey UC, their is no user by the name dicefreak.  So I can’t help on the link.

I’ve seen this thread many times now but I’ve never read through it all…   Maybe sometime, but I think I’ll subscribe see if I get any juicy bits.


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## Golem2176 (Jan 24, 2004)

This thread is way too damn long to catch up on if you are a newbie to the topic. I have posted inthis thread twice before, but only asking if the book has been released yet. If is not too much trouble UK I would like to ask you to please summarize your project for myself and these newbies. I was also wondering if your Immortals Handbook is going to include info on your revised Challenge Ratings.


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## Chosen01 (Jan 24, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!



Hi Krust!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






> Okay, there is no 'Publishing Discussion Forum' and I can't find any thread called 'Dicefreaks Iconic Characters'.



Did you log in? It's right below the Books, Films & Other Inspiration forum in the Dicefreaks D&D Discussion Forums section but It's not there if you didn't log in.




> So perhaps you would help me out with a link?



The link might just take you to a log in page so I'll just copy paste this.

DEUS(me): I just thought that I should let the budding designers here know that the SRD is going to be updated this week to include material from the ELH - source
Serge: Thanks!
Selah: Hmmm...nothing about whether or not D&Dg is getting added yet. Poor U_K!
Serge: Something tells me we're never going to see that up... At least not in a format that's of any use.
Selah: I wonder whether that means that the IH will remain in limbo indefinitely or not...
Serge: Probably. In fact, I've not seen much of U_K in a while here or at WotC. Haven't checked EN World, though...


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## Chosen01 (Jan 24, 2004)

Golem2176 said:
			
		

> This thread is way too damn long to catch up on if you are a newbie to the topic. I have posted inthis thread twice before, but only asking if the book has been released yet. If is not too much trouble UK I would like to ask you to please summarize your project for myself and these newbies. I was also wondering if your Immortals Handbook is going to include info on your revised Challenge Ratings.



This is an outdated FAQ by Krust but it should still answer some of your questions.

Immortals Handbook 

Frequently Asked Questions 

*1. What is the Immortals Handbook?*
A: The Immortals Handbook is a body of work that expands; explains and outlines all aspects of using deities within a campaign. 

*2. Is this a d20 product?*
A: Yes. As well as presenting a plethora of new material it seeks to marry ideas from Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook.

*3. Is this a standalone game?*
A: No. It requires the Core Rulebooks and the Epic Level Handbook. Deities & Demigods is compatible but not necessary.

*4. Who is publishing it?*
A: The publisher will be announced after Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook are entered into the System Reference Document.

*5. Will this be an electronic product, a print product or both?*
A: Initially the book will be released as four electronic products (Apotheosis; Grimoire; Bestiary and Chronicle); which will then be conjoined as a print product.

*6. Where should we expect to see it?*
A: The pdf will be available from websites such as www.rpgnow.com

*7. When should it be finished?*
A: The first pdf should be available shortly after the SRD is updated.

*8. Why has it taken so long?*
A: Aside from multiple expansions and numerous revisions throughout its inception it was decided last year that the work, which was already compatible with the core rulebooks would benefit a greater audience if it was fully compatible with Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook. As such we have been forced to wait until this material entered the SRD, though during this time the work has been further developed and refined.

*9. I’ve played in immortal campaigns before (Amber RPG; D&D Immortals; Primal Order) - how is this different, or better?*
A: The key difference between this work and previous material on the subject is that the focus is not solely on the gods themselves, but rather, the relationship between mortals and immortals. 

*10. I don’t really want to run an immortal campaign - why should the Immortals Handbook interest me?*
A: Firstly, the bulk of the material could just as easily bless any Epic campaign. Non-epic campaigns will also find a wealth of ideas helping them develop their worlds religions from both divine and mundane perspectives.

*11. I’ve heard you are making some changes to the core rules just what are they and why are you making them?*
A: The only major change to the core rules are revisions to the Challenge Rating/Encounter Level Rules.
Some of the dynamics of divinity itself have been changed, and a number of divine abilities have been redressed from how Deities & Demigods presents them.

*12. Are the changes optional or required?*
A: The changes are optional, but strongly advocated.

*13. What support can we expect in the future?*
A: There is already a wealth of support material planned; some already underway in fact. However, at this juncture it wouldn’t be prudent to reveal its exact composition.

*14. What are your main inspirations/sources?*
A: Primarily religion; mythology and the occult. Though certainly comic books; fantasy literature; movies and roleplaying games have also proved inspirational.

*15. Shouldn’t gods be beyond stats?*
A: If the Gamesmaster so wishes. However many Gamesmasters prefer to use deities in a more physical (rather than ephemeral) capacity. 

*16. Is the system modular, if so, to what degree?*
A: Practically the entire body of work is modular.

*17. Will it be easy to incorporate into an existing campaign?*
A: Yes, with minimal effort. 

*18. Do you have methods to convert existing gods from my campaign to fit your new and expanded rules?*
A: Yes, however to avoid copyright issues I must be circumspect in how I outline such conversion.

*19. I have heard about some weird stuff like Cosmic Abilities and Esoteric Divine Abilities, what are those and are they easy to add to existing gods?*
A: Cosmic Abilities are the powers attributed to Sidereals (also know as Cosmic or Over-deities) who could be described as the gods of the gods.
The term Esoteric is applied as a prefix to abilities beyond the power of deities to manifest in and of their own power. Immortals who gain Cosmic Abilities do so through esoteric means.

-------

You know Krust, word of mouth is good but the IH still needs a website.


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## CRGreathouse (Jan 24, 2004)

I've been looking over this for the last half hour, and I'm still in shock.  It's fully 3.5 updated, even!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 24, 2004)

Hi Brother Shatterstone! 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Hey UC, their is no user by the name dicefreak.  So I can’t help on the link.




I think he meant the Dicefreaks website mate. But thanks for the help anyway. 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I’ve seen this thread many times now but I’ve never read through it all…




Its getting a bit unwieldy...again. I thought by now I would have had the website finished which is why I wasn't in a hurry to start a new thread.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Maybe sometime, but I think I’ll subscribe see if I get any juicy bits.




Well if you have any questions I am only too happy to answer them...as long as the question isn't 'when is it finished?'


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 24, 2004)

Hi Golem 2176 mate! 



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> This thread is way too damn long to catch up on if you are a newbie to the topic.




Agreed! 



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> I have posted in this thread twice before, but only asking if the book has been released yet.




Okay. 



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> If is not too much trouble UK I would like to ask you to please summarize your project for myself and these newbies.




Absolutely...I tell you what I will create a new thread tomorrow (I only have about half an hour online before I am away from the computer again tonight) and include an updated FAQ and the press summary for each pdf.



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> I was also wondering if your Immortals Handbook is going to include info on your revised Challenge Ratings.




Yes, thats in the appendices.


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## Nightfall (Jan 24, 2004)

Well Krusty you must be close to Mount Celestia at this point with an updated ELH in the SRD. Congrats.


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 24, 2004)

Hi Chosen01 mate! 

Thanks for posting the FAQ.



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> You know Krust, word of mouth is good but the IH still needs a website.




I know mate. I probably need some help with the website side of things, in the short term at least. I thought I could handle that end of things myself but its going to mean putting the IH to the side for a week or so.

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I've been looking over this for the last half hour, and I'm still in shock.  It's fully 3.5 updated, even!
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35




Thanks for that, yes it seems we are in business at last.


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 24, 2004)

Hi Nightfall matey! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Well Krusty you must be close to Mount Celestia at this point with an updated ELH in the SRD. Congrats.




Thanks for the support mate, yes we are definately in the final stretch, that SRD update has unclouded my mind about a few things.


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## Nightfall (Jan 24, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Nightfall matey!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the support mate, yes we are definately in the final stretch, that SRD update has unclouded my mind about a few things.



Good to hear Krusty! Btw has your CC 3 copy arrived yet? Cause while I did buy one a while back, mine arrived. Again I'll say, you and that herald creation of yours...SICK!!!


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## Anabstercorian (Jan 24, 2004)

What monster did he write for CC3?  I was the Mist Murderer.


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 24, 2004)

Hello again mate! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Good to hear Krusty! Btw has your CC 3 copy arrived yet? Cause while I did buy one a while back, mine arrived.




No mine have not arrived yet, however hopefully that suggests they will be here soon! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Again I'll say, you and that herald creation of yours...SICK!!!




Glad you liked it mate! Note its gaze, which is actually similar to one of my Divine Gifts in the Immortals Handbook. It was so good I had to use it again. But don't tell anyone.


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 25, 2004)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> What monster did he write for CC3?  I was the Mist Murderer.




Well my three were:

The Gray Man: Herald of Otossal
Fluted Demon
Moon Golem


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 25, 2004)

Hi Chosen01 mate! 

...almost missed this... 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> The link might just take you to a log in page so I'll just copy paste this.
> 
> DEUS(me): I just thought that I should let the budding designers here know that the SRD is going to be updated this week to include material from the ELH - source
> Serge: Thanks!
> ...




Thanks for that mate.

I can't begrudge Serge and Selah their opinions. Though of course I iminently hope to prove them both wrong. 

I also hope to spend more time at Dicefreaks once I get things sorted with the IH. Dicefreaks is a fantastic site and I thoroughly recommend it to anyone; especially those wishing to run epic or immortal games.


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## Nightfall (Jan 25, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> No mine have not arrived yet, however hopefully that suggests they will be here soon!




It should. Happened on Thursday, so maybe by Monday. 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Glad you liked it mate! Note its gaze, which is actually similar to one of my Divine Gifts in the Immortals Handbook. It was so good I had to use it again. But don't tell anyone.



Ah. Well that's cool. I will say while I didn't care for the drawing or some of the powers, it was a good concept monster (Fluted Demon, not the Herald). Moon Golem ROCKS! Must use that one. Let me know what you think of Infernal Sentinel when you get the chance.


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 25, 2004)

Hey Nightfall matey! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> It should. Happened on Thursday, so maybe by Monday.




Fingers crossed!

Thanks for the heads up mate.  



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Ah. Well that's cool. I will say while I didn't care for the drawing or some of the powers,




Don't tell me I got hamstrung with weaker illustrations again. 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> it was a good concept monster (Fluted Demon, not the Herald).




I really liked the Gray Mans gaze weapon. 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Moon Golem ROCKS! Must use that one.




Heh heh! Glad you liked it.



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Let me know what you think of Infernal Sentinel when you get the chance.




Will do.


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## Gez (Jan 25, 2004)

I've received my CC3 too.  And I've finished and sent my submissions for CC4, another book I'm awaiting eagerly now.

Speaking of eagerly awaited books, now that the SRD is finally completed with what you needed, this deserves a new thread! With, maybe, a deadline?


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 25, 2004)

Hi Gez matey! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> I've received my CC3 too.




Thats taken the biscuit, you live even further away than me! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> And I've finished and sent my submissions for CC4,




I have a few things still to tidy up, I'll have to sort that out tomorrow.



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> another book I'm awaiting eagerly now.




Indeed.



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> Speaking of eagerly awaited books, now that the SRD is finally completed with what you needed, this deserves a new thread! With, maybe, a deadline?




True.

By the way I mentioned yesterday I will be updating the FAQ on the new (and hopefully last pre-IH) thread; but I should have asked if anyone had any new questions about it?

I'll either post that later tonight or first thing tomorrow morning.


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## Nightfall (Jan 25, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Fingers crossed! Thanks for the heads up mate.



No problem mate.  And also like to point out that Gez is French. Them french folk have WW connections so they tend to get it faster on the mainland than the Isle. Just a sad fact. 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Don't tell me I got hamstrung with weaker illustrations again.



I'm afraid so. It's a pretty WEAK illustration. The Herald and the Moon Golem however were pretty impressive in my view. (Art being subjective and all) But the Fluted Demon...just looked off. 




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I really liked the Gray Mans gaze weapon.



Yeah I can tell.  It's definitively one of its best features. 




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Heh heh! Glad you liked it.



Hell yeah I liked it!  I was like "Why didn't I think of that?!!" It's perfect for Belsamite clerics and their fellow wizards. I will have to use that.


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## Gez (Jan 25, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Thats taken the biscuit, you live even further away than me!




Maybe it was first mistakingly sent to Europe. 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have a few things still to tidy up, I'll have to sort that out tomorrow.




I wonder what you've come up with this time. Also, I'm happy your first submissions were sent in time, finally -- I remember you weren't sure.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> By the way I mentioned yesterday I will be updating the FAQ on the new (and hopefully last pre-IH) thread; but I should have asked if anyone had any new questions about it?




Personally, it seems complete enough. However, a table of content, once the book is finalised, would be nice.



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> And also like to point out that Gez is French.




And proudly so!



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Them french folk have WW connections so they tend to get it faster on the mainland than the Isle.




Hexagonal has ties with White Wolf (and they are even the only people outside Sword & Sorcery Studio contributing, although a very little, to the Scarred Lands -- Ankilia and the martial academies like Glamerhill, Clayborn, etc.), but that has no influence on the speed of postal services.

JG Browning told me (when he sent me a copy of Magical Medieval Society for review) that package sent to France took a very long time, but it didn't really. 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Just a sad fact.




How is it sad?


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## RangerWickett (Jan 25, 2004)

I just hopped in to read the last page here, and I'm almost afraid to ask, but . . . is the moon golem actually a golem, made out of the entire moon?


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 25, 2004)

Hi Nightfall matey! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> No problem mate.  And also like to point out that Gez is French.




I'm aware of that. 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Them french folk have WW connections so they tend to get it faster on the mainland than the Isle. Just a sad fact.




Ah well, I am used to delays.  



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> I'm afraid so. It's a pretty WEAK illustration.








			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> The Herald and the Moon Golem however were pretty impressive in my view. (Art being subjective and all) But the Fluted Demon...just looked off.




Two out of three ain't too bad.



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Yeah I can tell.  It's definitively one of its best features.




I hadn't seen it done anywhere before, I was quite proud of that one.



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Hell yeah I liked it!  I was like "Why didn't I think of that?!!" It's perfect for Belsamite clerics and their fellow wizards. I will have to use that.




I was quite surprised no one had come up with the idea before now.


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 25, 2004)

Hey Gez mate! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> Maybe it was first mistakingly sent to Europe.




I'm in Europe!



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> I wonder what you've come up with this time.




I don't want to spoil any surprises. 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> Also, I'm happy your first submissions were sent in time, finally -- I remember you weren't sure.




Yeah it was my own stupidity leaving it to the last few days 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> Personally, it seems complete enough. However, a table of content, once the book is finalised, would be nice.




Okay.



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> And proudly so!




Vive la France! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> How is it sad?




Sad for me because I don't have my copies yet.


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 25, 2004)

Hi Ranger mate! 



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I just hopped in to read the last page here, and I'm almost afraid to ask, but . . . is the moon golem actually a golem, made out of the entire moon?




Well the one in the Creature Collection 3 isn't.


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## Nightfall (Jan 26, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I just hopped in to read the last page here, and I'm almost afraid to ask, but . . . is the moon golem actually a golem, made out of the entire moon?



Ranger, nope but its very lycanthropic/shaperchangerish.  Basically they make it out of obsidian and let it run around causing lycanthropic chaos along with just plain ole vindicitiveness. 

Krusty,

Yeah well I guess when it comes to obvious ideas you can see it more than most.


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## Gez (Jan 26, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well the one in the Creature Collection 3 isn't.




You say that like your initial draft was what RangerWickett said...


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 26, 2004)

Hi all! 

I'll get to the new thread in a while.

Just wanted to say that my Creature Collections 3 copies arrived this morning! Hooray! 

My early impression is that my own entries were treated fairly well. I especially liked the Gray Man illustration (by RJT no less!).

The Infernal Sentinel is good; although they seem to have given it a sword instead of the listed 'warsceptre'; which I think would have suited it better. The beast actually reminds me of an old and obscure Mighty Thor foe!

The Mist Murderer reminds me of the Martians from the old sci-fi movie 'Quatermass and the Pit'. I especially like its Inject Eggs ability since that was an ability I had in another entry which didn't quite make it. I could definately see Mist Murderer Swarms in epic/immortal campaigns.

I was a bit disappointed to see the book has no listings by CR or Type though. I think thats a mistake. 

So far my favourite entries (ie. The ones that have caught my eye) are:

-Asuran Lockwatcher (reminds me of something you would see in Stargate)
-Daemon, Belsameths Watchman (that monster just looks so cool)
-Devil, Shelnizu (quite tough)
-Dirgewood Tree (very spooky)
-Dragon, Fleshwrack (fat dragons)
-Eyedra (you gotta' love it)
-Gatemaster (the illustration anyway)
-Amber Golem (very good idea)
-Bramble Golem (reminds me of many a horror movie)
-Hive Golem (I like bees)
-Spontaneous Golems (specifically the Hoard Golem)
-Phoenix, Black (theres just something cool about this monster)

Lastly was it just my impression or was there a half dozen monsters with six arms in the book...I'll have to look over that.


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## Anabstercorian (Jan 26, 2004)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The Mist Murderer reminds me of the Martians from the old sci-fi movie 'Quatermass and the Pit'. I especially like its Inject Eggs ability since that was an ability I had in another entry which didn't quite make it. I could definately see Mist Murderer Swarms in epic/immortal campaigns.




 Thank you!


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 26, 2004)

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Thank you!




Your welcome mate. 

By the way everyone I have created the new thread here:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75540

I'll add the revised FAQ shortly (after I get something to eat and maybe have another browse through the Creature Collection 3).


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