# How'd you handle Haddin?



## Kzach

This encounter worries me. Primarily because I see absolutely no reason for the PC's to help Haddin, in any way, shape, or form. Worse, the more they learn about him, the less likely the players are to even want to help him.

This basically nullifies the opportunity to get XP from the skill challenge.

How did other DM's handle this conundrum?


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## Daern

I swapped him out for a Howling Hag named Tristessa who was the guardian of Chrystin... basically an excuse to have an ally freak out during combat.

I agree though, he's basically a thorn in the side NPC.  Probably the main story reason to have him is that if the party wants Christin around then they can't easily get ride of the wizard.


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## EugeneZ

The motivation for the PCs to help Haddin is that his daughter deserves more than Haddin seems capable of giving. I think a compassionate PC would see that Crystin deserves a better life, but is not yet ready to be separated from her father.

However, the PCs in my campaign are far from compassionate, and while they put up with Haddin for a few days, one of the PCs killed him in his sleep after he tried to dominate the PC the day before (they got into a verbal shouting match in which Haddin decided to show off his strength).



Spoiler



There's no major problems with killing Haddin until adventure #5, Journey to the Monastery of the Two Winds, in which he plays an (ultimately replaceable) role.



If you're worried about XP, as long as the PCs manage to leave with Crystin, I would still give it to them.


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## Kzach

EugeneZ said:


> The motivation for the PCs to help Haddin is that his daughter deserves more than Haddin seems capable of giving. I think a compassionate PC would see that Crystin deserves a better life, but is not yet ready to be separated from her father.



Hrm, this is a Maptools game and so far the players haven't picked up on any subtleties. Things that I thought would be obvious they seem to miss, like Kurychek who's tagging along with them 'cause they promised him the case once it's emptied. He's been spying on them and reporting back to Guthwulf. Kathor (who the PC's let live in the first encounter) warned them of this (I had him warn them of the Gauntlet ambush as a means to repay his debt) and they still haven't picked up on it.

So the fact that she's oppressed and miserable, and enchanted even, probably won't be noticed unless I strongly hint at it. And even then, that'll just have them want to kill Haddin all the more.



EugeneZ said:


> If you're worried about XP, as long as the PCs manage to leave with Crystin, I would still give it to them.



But she won't leave without Haddin...


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## EugeneZ

Kzach said:


> Hrm, this is a Maptools game and so far the players haven't picked up on any subtleties. Things that I thought would be obvious they seem to miss, like Kurychek who's tagging along with them 'cause they promised him the case once it's emptied. He's been spying on them and reporting back to Guthwulf. Kathor (who the PC's let live in the first encounter) warned them of this (I had him warn them of the Gauntlet ambush as a means to repay his debt) and they still haven't picked up on it.




Depends on whether you are okay continuing with a clueless party. Missing some XP, and seeing other consequences of their narrow-minded view, should wake them up to it. If you're okay with things as they are, though, and don't want to force them to understand the world around them, then your game shouldn't rely on subtlety. Spell it out for them and leave the choice of what to do with those facts up to them.



Kzach said:


> So the fact that she's oppressed and miserable, and enchanted even, probably won't be noticed unless I strongly hint at it. And even then, that'll just have them want to kill Haddin all the more.




Let them.



Kzach said:


> But she won't leave without Haddin...




If he's dead, I don't see Crystin choosing to remain alone at her collage. Even if he's not dead, she can be forcibly taken by the PCs. Again, the goal here, in my opinion, is to take Crystin with them, for two reasons: 1) Because the PCs should be saving her, and 2) Because she seems to have some sort of gift for fortune telling, and could be of use to the party.

Haddin is just a complication in all that. Crystin doesn't want to leave without him, and that's what makes the PC's situation interesting. Killing Haddin or simply kidnapping Crystin seem to be the immediate options for parties who really dislike Haddin.

But I suspect that your group, like my group, will allow him to tag along in any case. If they simply pass the two by, I'd make sure they understand the consequences of their actions. They don't get the XP, to begin with, but depending on how creative you want to get, you can do some interesting stuff. Have the news of Crystin's brutal slaying greet the PCs when they reach Seaquen, then have Haddin be one of the Inquisitors later on, his mind warped by his daughter's death, turning him completely into a Darth-Vader-like figure. Or have Crystin haunt the PCs dreams, relaying her prophecies to the PCs even in death, her torment costing the PCs healing surges after an extended rest.

Just tossing some ideas out there. I thought that Haddin and Crystin were some pretty interesting characters, as long as you allow the PCs to handle the situation in an unconventional manner.


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## Morrus

Assuming you're talking about the end of _Scouring_?

Bear in mind your PCs don't have to help Haddin at all. You say your group doesn't have the motivation to do so? Go with that! Play with it - have the house burned down and Haddin killed. Play with the grey moral areas, the choices the heroes must make. Play with Crystin's grief and have her blame the party. There's some fantastic roleplaying to be mined there!

Haddin does have a role later, but you should have very little difficulty switching in a new morally dubious NPC, or smudging an existing NPC.

Or have him captured and taken away by the Scourge, and he can show up again vengeful in _O, Wintry Song of Agony_.  That could be fun!

Some wonderful ideas from Eugene there, too.


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## John Doom

Much like in EugeneZ's group, my guys put up with Haddin until he dominated the Warlock over the bat-bridge. 

The Dwarvish warrior shield bashed him prone and the Deva Avenger made him relinquish control of Crystin. They shouted at the old man for a while in front of Crystin to show what a bad man he was, basically trying to make her understand why they were subduing him. They tied and gagged him with rope in the middle of the bridge and told him to walk back to his cabin once they were out of sight.

The Goliath Warden waited around for the party to be out of sight and after tying the rope to the bridge pushed him off to hang by his feet over the fiery canyon. 

They just finished the Trial by Fire encounter and were glad to have Crystin with them.


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## RangerWickett

John Doom said:


> The Goliath Warden waited around for the party to be out of sight and after tying the rope to the bridge pushed him off to hang by his feet over the fiery canyon.




By his feet? As in _not_ dead? Oh, these players are just _asking_ for revenge.


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## John Doom

RangerWickett said:


> By his feet? As in _not_ dead? Oh, these players are just _asking_ for revenge.




Yes. Yes they are. 

They have not yet learned that their actions can and will have consequences.


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## sfedi

"My" Haddin is acting somewhat obnoxious, but is trying to keep a low profile to reach Seaquen. Once there he will let loose all his evil.

At the end of _Scouring..._ Crystin's love for his father was the main reason they wanted Haddin to go with them.
They managed to let loose his control over his daughter.

I wish I could make his presence (and of the other NPCs) a liitle bit more notorious and meaningful.
But I haven't worked on that yet.


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## EugeneZ

sfedi said:


> I wish I could make his presence (and of the other NPCs) a liitle bit more notorious and meaningful.
> But I haven't worked on that yet.




You may be interested in what happens to Crystin and Haddin in _Shelter from the Storm_, and Haddin in _Mission to the Monastery of Two Winds_. I'm keeping this spoiler free, though, and besides, I haven't finished _Mission_ yet.


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## Kzach

I figured out how I'm going to handle this encounter.

I made Crystin incredibly hot.


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## Truename

She seems a little... confident for Crystin. But perfect for Katrina.


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## liggetar

My Haddin was much like sfedi's.  He saw them take down an Inquisitor pretty handily, and so he's not going to risk a direct confrontation.  Crystin started looking up to the eladrin artificer during the journey through the Fire Forest, so she endeared herself to the party that way.  Haddin was tolerated for her sake, I think.  The topic of leaving him never really came up, even when they figured out that he was controlling Crystin towards the end of adventure 2.


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## EugeneZ

Well played, Kzach. 

I completely agree with Truename however, in that the picture applies more to Katrina -- though I think with the approaching winter, Katrina is slightly (_slightly_) more practical than that.

In the spirit of attribution, considering I might actually use that pic for my game (as Katrina, if they ever meet her in a setting where she wants to dress up), who's the artist?


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## Kzach

EugeneZ said:


> Well played, Kzach.
> 
> I completely agree with Truename however, in that the picture applies more to Katrina -- though I think with the approaching winter, Katrina is slightly (_slightly_) more practical than that.
> 
> In the spirit of attribution, considering I might actually use that pic for my game (as Katrina, if they ever meet her in a setting where she wants to dress up), who's the artist?




*shrug*

I find all the pics I use through Google Image Search. I have no idea who the original artists are most of the time.


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## Kzach

How about this as Crystin then? More toned down, still hot, and with a black staff to boot!


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## EugeneZ

Yep. Better. The problem with the other one as Crystin was the smirk and the easy confidence, both of which are completely uncharacteristic of Crystin (in my game.) This Crystin is much more subdued and even mysterious. Sold. Of course... she's technically supposed to be quite young. I suppose the book doesn't give her age, but, um, that picture would *definitely* not work in my campaign. Nothing says she can't be a bit older than the module implies.


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## Kzach

Well, the module implies she's around 20.


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## sfedi

I like Crystin not been hot, and very shy.

She's a bomb that's about to explode, and her father the evil guy who leave the scene to cause more mayhem at another place.

My intention in this part of the adventure is to let pro-active players rip the benefit of dealing appropiately with these NPCs.
Players of the Good alignement that aren't as proactive will have their reward in the adventure itself (and it's repercussions)


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## scrubkai

I guess I saw Crystin as being younger, shy and sheltered...  and with something of a far away look in her eyes.

This is closer to how I've always pictured her


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## Kzach

I'd hit it...


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