# What's a good high-charisma build? Or, can Bards be useful?



## Zaruthustran

I'm looking to start a new character, a high charisma character. Most of my characters are combat machines with an 8 Cha so I'm not experienced at building with charisma.

What works best for high charisma builds? Is Sor/Cleric/Mystic Theurge viable? How about a Sor/Pal, or Sor/Cleric? Or straight up Bard?

Speaking of Bard... has anyone been able to put one to good use, in game?

-z


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## FrankTrollman

> What works best for high charisma builds?




Paladins. The class stops getting getting abilities after about level 5 which is plenty of time to take a PrC or three. You can go far as a Paladin.

Alternately: Clerics. You can max out a turning based character fairly easily - and with the elemental domains you can be followed around with quite a stack of monsters - which are dragged around based on _hit dice_, and not something _balanced_ like CR.



> Is Sor/Cleric/Mystic Theurge viable?




No. Imagine for a second that you were taking Sorcerer - a class which gets its new powerful spells one level later for no damned reason at all. Now imagine that you were being a Mystic Theurge and delaying your new spell levels by 3 more levels. And then that you needed to balance two sets of skills without a good int bonus.

The Wizard/Cleric MyTh is jacked on synnergy in many ways (so much so that the often quoted 20th level MyTh who casts as a 17th level Wizard and a 13th level Cleric would actually have more Clerical spells by just taking three more levels of Wizard and using his extra spell slots on Summon Monster to get Celestials who cast Cleric Spells) - the Sorcerer/Cleric MyTh gets punched in the balls even more.



> How about a Sor/Pal, or Sor/Cleric?



 Multiclassing Spellcasters = Suck. That's been true since 3rd edition came out and _nothing_ has broken that rule. Ever.



> Or straight up Bard?




Assuming the 3.5 rulesset, the Bard is pretty decent at low level. You have a lower BAB, but you can sing in combat to maintain your to-hit bonus and assist the rest of the party. Unfortunately, 3.5 has punished the Perform Skill heavily and still doesn't give Bards anything worthwhile to do at high level so the character is going to become boring to play and frustratingly underpowered if you intend to go past about 8th level.



> Speaking of Bard... has anyone been able to put one to good use, in game?




Yeah. In low level play - the 3.5 Bard is entertaining and just powerful enough that the other players won't beat you to death for being useless in combat and quite powerful outside of combat.

3.5 nerfed Perform, so you'll have to choose whether you play an instrument (which can be done while casting spells), or sing (which can be done while fighting). That makes all bards fit into two categories and makes them frustratingly similar later in play.

-Frank


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## Particle_Man

Whatever you do, I suggest you max out diplomacy.  Depending on your DM, you can get combat ending results on a high score.

Note that half-elf bards do well here, as all the synergy granting skills are class skills.


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## Particle_Man

OH, and psion (telepath) can be pretty evil.


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## DM_Matt

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> I'm looking to start a new character, a high charisma character. Most of my characters are combat machines with an 8 Cha so I'm not experienced at building with charisma.
> 
> What works best for high charisma builds? Is Sor/Cleric/Mystic Theurge viable? How about a Sor/Pal, or Sor/Cleric? Or straight up Bard?
> 
> Speaking of Bard... has anyone been able to put one to good use, in game?
> 
> -z




I built a fun Eldritch Knight faceman character once.  Ranger1 then Sorc6 then EK.  The EK needs a level of a fighter class, so I chose ranger one for a huge head start on skill points, and favored enemy human, which gives +2 on bluff, sense motive, spot, and listen v humans.  At low levels hes as good a face as any, and a decent fighter mage, and then the magey goodness eventually kicks in.  Ray spells like the very powerful scorching ray are particularly nice beucase you have a good Bab.


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## Zaruthustran

Thanks Frank. This is good info.



			
				FrankTrollman said:
			
		

> Alternately: Clerics. You can max out a turning based character fairly easily - and with the elemental domains you can be followed around with quite a stack of monsters - which are dragged around based on _hit dice_, and not something _balanced_ like CR.




How do elemental domains get you stacks of monsters? The rebuking? I don't see much in the way of summoning spells.

How would you max a turning cleric (28 point buy)? What domains do you like? I figure for a high Cha cleric, Trickery might be a good choice.




> Multiclassing Spellcasters = Suck. That's been true since 3rd edition came out and _nothing_ has broken that rule. Ever.




What about just a level or three of Sor, to get Enlarge Person, Buffs, Blindness? I guess it'd make more sense to build a paladin or holy liberator, then take Leadership and recruit a real sorcerer.



> Assuming the 3.5 rulesset, the Bard is pretty decent at low level. You have a lower BAB, but you can sing in combat to maintain your to-hit bonus and assist the rest of the party. Unfortunately, 3.5 has punished the Perform Skill heavily and still doesn't give Bards anything worthwhile to do at high level so the character is going to become boring to play and frustratingly underpowered if you intend to go past about 8th level.
> 
> Yeah. In low level play - the 3.5 Bard is entertaining and just powerful enough that the other players won't beat you to death for being useless in combat and quite powerful outside of combat.
> 
> 3.5 nerfed Perform, so you'll have to choose whether you play an instrument (which can be done while casting spells), or sing (which can be done while fighting). That makes all bards fit into two categories and makes them frustratingly similar later in play.
> 
> -Frank




Same general question as cleric: do you have any favorite bard builds? I was thinking something like:
Human
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 16
1. Negotiator, Improved Initiative
3. Spell Focus: Enchantment
6. ?

He sings, so he uses a shield and whip in combat to Aid Other. 

-z


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## Zaruthustran

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> I built a fun Eldritch Knight faceman character once.  Ranger1 then Sorc6 then EK.  The EK needs a level of a fighter class, so I chose ranger one for a huge head start on skill points, and favored enemy human, which gives +2 on bluff, sense motive, spot, and listen v humans.  At low levels hes as good a face as any, and a decent fighter mage, and then the magey goodness eventually kicks in.  Ray spells like the very powerful scorching ray are particularly nice beucase you have a good Bab.




Good idea--I hadn't thought about the Ranger bonus to bluff. My current character is a ranger though, so I want to stay away from that particular class.
-z


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## Thanee

If you are going to make a charisma-based character you might want to check the Contemplative PrC and the Mysticism Prestige Domain (even as a non-cleric). That one is pretty nice (grants the Cha bonus to saves ability of the Paladin).

As a Cleric or Sorcerer in the Forgotten Realms, you could be interested in the Heartwarder PrC (F&P), if your patron deity is Sune. It grants a +5 inherent bonus to Cha over time.

High skills in Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate and/or Use Magic Device would be a good idea as well.

You could also play a Rogue/Spymaster (S&S) for example with a high charisma.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee

About the Bards, yes they are useful (definitely more useful than Monks ) and I have seen some in games. Great support character.

Focusing on either ranged attacks (as an elven bard) or swashbuckling (finessed rapier), they can be quite decent in combat, with all their spells. They have useful healing abilities and the Inspire Courage song is a big help for everyone!

In addition they have very decent skills, basically only lacking Disarm Device, Open Lock and Spot compared to the Rogue.

Bye
Thanee


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## Kae'Yoss

FrankTrollman said:
			
		

> No. Imagine for a second that you were taking Sorcerer - a class which gets its new powerful spells one level later for no damned reason at all. Now imagine that you were being a Mystic Theurge and delaying your new spell levels by 3 more levels. And then that you needed to balance two sets of skills without a good int bonus.




I disagree. The one level you lag behind more than a wiz/clr isn't that bad. Also, both classes can make something out of charisma, and the skillsets aren't that different - knowledge (arcana), knowledge (religion), spellcraft, concentration. The only thing that isn't in both classes is the knowledge (religion) - and you do get it with mystic theurge. Sure, clr/wiz is more streamlined, but only munchkins take but the optimal choices.


> The Wizard/Cleric MyTh is jacked on synnergy in many ways (so much so that the often quoted 20th level MyTh who casts as a 17th level Wizard and a 13th level Cleric would actually have more Clerical spells by just taking three more levels of Wizard and using his extra spell slots on Summon Monster to get Celestials who cast Cleric Spells) - the Sorcerer/Cleric MyTh gets punched in the balls even more.



Of course you have to give something up to ge BOTH stuff. I don't even allow to unbalance the class levels in that way -> no wiz7/clr3/mt10. I allow the class only if the player agrees on keeping it even more or less. But while you might give up some of the most powerful spells, you do gain both brands of magic. You have good elemental attack spells, good save-or-die-spells good protections, good utility....


> Multiclassing Spellcasters = Suck. That's been true since 3rd edition came out and _nothing_ has broken that rule. Ever.




If you mean a clr/wiz character, it is right more or less, although I believe the mystic theurge did break that rules. But spellcaster/nonspellcaster can be quite effective.


> Assuming the 3.5 rulesset, the Bard is pretty decent at low level. You have a lower BAB, but you can sing in combat to maintain your to-hit bonus and assist the rest of the party. Unfortunately, 3.5 has punished the Perform Skill heavily and still doesn't give Bards anything worthwhile to do at high level so the character is going to become boring to play and frustratingly underpowered if you intend to go past about 8th level.



Bards can be a good choice up to 20th and beyond. Don't expect to be the best in anything (except social skills), but you are still decent in most things.


> Yeah. In low level play - the 3.5 Bard is entertaining and just powerful enough that the other players won't beat you to death for being useless in combat and quite powerful outside of combat.



Maybe his party isn't a bunch of munchkins and likes to have some party member with uses outside of combat. And he's not useless in combat, either...


> 3.5 nerfed Perform, so you'll have to choose whether you play an instrument (which can be done while casting spells), or sing (which can be done while fighting). That makes all bards fit into two categories and makes them frustratingly similar later in play.



Or you just take both. This leaves you another skillpoint from the recent increase from 4 to 6, which can be put into yet another perform skill, or a knowledge skill, or anything else. Besides, there are quite a lot of instruments, and quite a lot of ways to use you voice, so there is variety in there. After all, the fighter is also only someone who uses a weapon.



			
				Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> What works best for high charisma builds? Is Sor/Cleric/Mystic Theurge viable? How about a Sor/Pal, or Sor/Cleric? Or straight up Bard?




Sor/Clr/Mt: should work. Don't expect to be best in any kind of magic (that's not what being multiclass is all about, anyway), but you will have access to most spells. Both classes can use charisma (although your turning isn't that good with as few cleric levels as you have) and noone said you couldn't have a decent Int stat, too, for skills (this build is a pure spellcaster, not a combat caster as you find with clerics often. But on the other hand, you can get both divine power and tenser's transformation eventually). Be a buffer and spellslinger.

For ultimate synergy of charisma, you might want to become a sorcerer/shugenja/mystic theurge....

Sor/Clr: Wouldn't do that. You just lose to much. While the mystic theurge will lessen the loss you get from multiclassing (and make it a good choice after all), you will lag way behind here.

Sor/Pal: Try to talk your DM into loosing the multiclass restrictions of the paladin. But this build should work, too. Pal12/Sor8 is nice cause you get 4 attacks eventually. Concentrate on buff spells, and other spells that help you in melee. Look up the bladesinger spell list for pointers (found in RoF, Blood and Tome or the free web enhancement of the latter)

Bard: This is another good choice. The charisma will work for your spells, for your performance, and for a lot of your skills. You will probably be the most effective character outside of combat (and that is what having high charisma is all about) and be a good addition to the party in combat. You won't be best in anything - besides negotiating and the like - but you will be decent in anything you do. You can focus on one thing or do several things at once. You will be able to accomplish something on your own, and you will be the front of the party, and if you already have the 4 monster food types (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue), the bard is the ideal addition to the party. And you are really good in Use Magic Device.

You have forgotten one build: The Rogue! They also get much out of charisma. Expect to be a skill user first and foremost, but with a maxed out bluff (and Combat Expertise and Improved Feint), you can sneak attack almost anyone, even without sneaking or flanking. And don't underestimate the power of a character with the focus outside of battle: the pen can be more powerful than the sword, and your mouth can outclass both! Take the two feats described above and Weapon Finesse, and you're effective enough in combat. You may want to multiclass into bard. Either way, you can also Use Magic Device.

If you want (and are allowed) to play nonstandard races, consider the fey'ri for your rogue built! With your inherent ability to change your shape, your skills and a decent charisma, you will be a great spy and infiltrator. And the daemonic abilities you get help you further.


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## bensei

> *FrankTrollman posted:*
> 3.5 nerfed Perform, so you'll have to choose whether you play an instrument (which can be done while casting spells), or sing (which can be done while fighting).



I am not sure whether you can play an instrument while casting spells (does anyone have a reference for this), but you clearly cannot cast spells while using _any_ bardic music effect. So there is not much use in this fact (unless hiding the spellcasting in the musical performance).

Also, I do not see any statement in the SRD which prevents a bard from playing an instrument and fighting at once, although this is quite hard to imagine for most instruments and weapons used by a two-handed character.


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## Darklone

Hmm, clr/spellsinger (Kalamar PG) is nice too... spellcasting in fullplatemail.
If you wanna get weird, take the Shugenja, you'd have two CHA-based spellcasters


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## Plane Sailing

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Speaking of Bard... has anyone been able to put one to good use, in game?
> 
> -z




Read Piratecats storyhour!


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## Darklone

For a low level build, use Montes variant bard with damage spells and Cha 18... with two spell notes per round, he'll make any sorcerer commit suicide (he has 8 spellnotes per day!).


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## Thanee

For a less combat-oriented character, a Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster could also work well.

For a combat-oriented Arcane Trickster, the Wizard is probably the better choice, but then there is not much Cha involved! 

Bye
Thanee


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## two

*Monte's bard*



			
				Darklone said:
			
		

> For a low level build, use Montes variant bard with damage spells and Cha 18... with two spell notes per round, he'll make any sorcerer commit suicide (he has 8 spellnotes per day!).




Monte's Bard is almost impossible not to "break," meaning making it more powerful as a direct damage spell caster than a SRD wizard or sorcerer, yet with better BAB, hit points, etc. etc. 

Throw in some of those Eldritch metamagic feat things (applicable to notes/chords/melodies) and it's completely over the top.  

With almost no effort you can get roughly double the spell casting power of a sorcerer (mostly using ranged touch attack spells).  All you have to do is buff up your perform skill as high as possible (it's used with metamagic feats).  But anyway -- 

As per Frank's comments about the bard being ok at low levels, suckier and high, he's clearly on drugs, or never played a 3.5 bard or something. As usual, don't take him very seriously.  I don't think even HE takes himself seriously.


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## Henry

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Speaking of Bard... has anyone been able to put one to good use, in game?




Bards are the most useful when your DM recognizes their abilities and let's them shine in social situations (assuming your bard rightly focused there). A Bard with good Diplomacy, Gather Info, Bluff, and Intimidate can be tremendously useful in a group. Furthermore, enhancing their abilities with their spells (charm person, suggestion, hold person, etc.) can in some cases let a Bard end a major challenge or combat before it really begins!

As an unusual Bard, a player in our Forgotten Realms game plays a Half-Orc Barbarian/Bard. Last game, the entire group was pitted against an Orc Raiding Party (of FIFTY orcs!) The Bard rode around on horseback, using a spiked chain and his ride skill, singing all the while, while laying about left and right slaying orcs and befitting the scattered party. In many cases, saving throws and to-hits were made by one point that day, proving the bard's usefulness to no end. At one point, he was responsible for holding one small flank all by himself!


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## The Souljourner

I'm starting a bard in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.  I had an elven archer before, but he died, so I decided I'd try out a bard.  He'll be 9th level, so I guess we'll see if higher levels are crappy for bards.  Personally, I can't imagine anyone thinking so... the best thing about the bard - inspire courage - now gets better as he levels.  Giving +2, 3, or 4 to all your allies hit and damage rolls is amazing!  And if you take lingering song from Song and Silence, you just have to do it once and it'll last 10 rounds.  That'll last longer than combat does, most of the time.

The Bard spell list is pretty decent, as long as you're not looking for direct damage spells.  Some buffs, a ton of enchantments... tasha's hideous laughter is almost like old school hold person.

I plan on being a melee combat guy - longsword and buckler.  I recommend having decent strength if you can manage it... 10 strength means you're useless in combat, and that's one of the things you're "paying for" with the 3/4 BAB.  That's the only bad thing about bards... you kinda need every stat.  Wisdom and Constitution being the "drop" stats... though not really.

-The Souljourner


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## Darklone

Henry said:
			
		

> As an unusual Bard, a player in our Forgotten Realms game plays a Half-Orc Barbarian/Bard. Last game, the entire group was pitted against an Orc Raiding Party (of FIFTY orcs!) The Bard rode around on horseback, using a spiked chain and his ride skill, singing all the while, while laying about left and right slaying orcs and befitting the scattered party. In many cases, saving throws and to-hits were made by one point that day, proving the bard's usefulness to no end. At one point, he was responsible for holding one small flank all by himself!



Barbarian/Bards are not at all unusual and I've seen them in action (and played similar builds) more than once...

Bbn1/Bard human for example: Skald with big axe. Some nice attribute scores (Str 16, Dex 14, Con 15, Cha 15) allowed him to stay at least on par with the fighter of the group till level 6. And one reason why the fighter surpassed him was that the bards song affected both of them.

Actually, for this kind of builds, the 3.0 Bard with Magic Weapon and medium armour proficiency was much better.


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## Gnome Berzerker

A Paladin2/Sorcerer8/Eldritch Knight 10 is a decent build.  No, you'll never touch the wizard in spellcasting ability, but you'll make every saving throw you need to, and you might just outlive the guy!

Barbarian/Bard is another fun choice (go GNOME!).

Bard 20 is underrated, and can be tons of fun as well.

I like Bard10/Arcane Archer 10, but it's not the most powerful build out there.

Clerics with the right two elemental domains can turn/rebuke almost anything they come across.  It's really a sick, under-chosen choice if you ask me.  It's personal choice (and whether of not you can find a deity with the matching alignment or not), whether or not you add 2 levels of Paladin to this build.  Again, making a saving throw could easily mean the difference between surviving, or rolling up a new character.


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## youspoonybard

Because of the +1/5 levels, isn't the Bard's "BAB" pretty good nowadays?

I mean, it works out to having a Full BAB and +5 to damage...


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## Snipehunt

youspoonybard said:
			
		

> Because of the +1/5 levels, isn't the Bard's "BAB" pretty good nowadays?
> 
> I mean, it works out to having a Full BAB and +5 to damage...




Not quite = +19/ +4 damage, no extra iterative attack.  Still very good. I see it more as making up for having a sucky strength compared to the melee types and no special attacks like rogues and monks.  You give up sneakiness to get good BAB.

Bards are great, though.  I saw a bard get up to around +35 on diplomacy without trying that hard.  Melted the hearts of enemies right away.  The barbarian and battle wizard players complained about _talking to things and stuff all the time_.  Good times.


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## Zaruthustran

Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> Again, making a saving throw could easily mean the difference between surviving, or rolling up a new character.




Yeah, it seems a waste to have a high Charisma and NOT have Divine Grace.

Divine Grace is available through Paladin, Holy Liberator, and Contemplative (the Mysticism domain). 

So how about:

Human Paladin 2/Cleric 4
Str 14 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 16
Feats:
1 Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
3 Divine Might
6 Leadership

Or...
Human Bard 6/Horizon Walker 1/Holy Liberator 2
Human Bard 8/Holy Liberator 2
Feats and stats?

Or...
Human Barbarian 2/ Bard 4/ Templar (of Myhriss, Greyhawk god of love and romance--one of two gods with whip as a favored weapon) or Lasher
Str 14 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 14
1. Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3. Weapon Focus: Whip
6. Leadership? Or Iron Will and go for Holy Liberator?

Or...
Human Cleric (domains: Trickery, Knowledge)
Str 8 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 12
1. Spell Focus: Enchantment, Improved Init
3. Scribe Scroll
6. Leadership

Comments on these builds?

-z

_edit: Divine GRACE, not Divine Favor_


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## Thanee

Divine Grace! 

Bye
Thanee


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## The Souljourner

Thanks... that was bugging me too   Divine Favor = spell, Divine Grace = paladin ability.

I really like the idea of taking a couple levels of holy liberator, I may need to do that with my bard 

-The Souljourner


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## jgsugden

If you want to do more role playing, I suggest a rogue. They have lots of charisma based skills. They also have a lot of opportunities to create role playing opportunities. 

Talking your way out of incarceration can be fun.


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## Camarath

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> OH, and psion (telepath) can be pretty evil.



 I have to second this. Psion (Telepath) can be a very fun build. Its power will vary quite a bit though depending on how your DM runs Charm. You might consider playing a Paladin/Psion if you want a bit more direct combat.


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## Norfleet

The party can never have too many roguely people. Rogues are synergistic: The more rogues you have, the easier it is to pull sneak attacks, when you have rogues bouncing all over the place like berserk slinkys. With a large assortment of skills, and a good multiclass choice, you can easily make use of high charisma on a rogue: A blackguard multiclass can even let you keep some more sneak attack.


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## The Souljourner

*LOL* "rogues bouncing all over the place like berserk slinkys"

I think bards trump rogues when it comes to roleplaying opportunities.  Of course, you can run a rogue a lot like a bard, but then why not play a bard? 

Bards are the friendliest and most likeable characters in the game, and you should take advantage of that.  

I'm looking forward to playing my new bard more than any other character, simply because he'll be more over the top and fun than any character I've ever played.  Of course, you can be over the top with a fighter too, but it just doesn't have the same ring to it, if you know what I mean.

-The Souljourner


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## Al

The infamous paladin1/telepathX is an exceptional build for high Charisma characters.  Not only is the telepath one of the best Charisma-build classes out there (combining one of the best sets of powers and a decent set of Charisma-based skills), adding paladin pushes it over the top.  Not only do you gain your (maxed out) Charisma modifier to saves, you gain full armour and shield proficiency, which blends well with the psion's ability to manifest powers whilst armoured.


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## Kae'Yoss

Al said:
			
		

> The infamous paladin1/telepathX is an exceptional build for high Charisma characters.  Not only is the telepath one of the best Charisma-build classes out there (combining one of the best sets of powers and a decent set of Charisma-based skills), adding paladin pushes it over the top.  Not only do you gain your (maxed out) Charisma modifier to saves, you gain full armour and shield proficiency, which blends well with the psion's ability to manifest powers whilst armoured.




If we're talking 3.5, make that paladin2/telepath(X-1), your divine grace isn't yours.


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## Thanee

Psionics in 3.5? I wouldn't touch that unless they revised the WHOLE book! 

That's easily one of the worst 3E products (Psionic Handbook).

Bye
Thanee


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## Darklone

One level cleric is enough for a bard, allows you to focus your spells on something else but healing and you can pick Divine Might.


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## Hypersmurf

Darklone said:
			
		

> One level cleric is enough for a bard, allows you to focus your spells on something else but healing and you can pick Divine Might.




Beat me to it.  I'm a big fan of Divine Might.

-Hyp.


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## Hypersmurf

The Souljourner said:
			
		

> The Bard spell list is pretty decent, as long as you're not looking for direct damage spells.  Some buffs, a ton of enchantments... tasha's hideous laughter is almost like old school hold person.




_Fanfare_!

-Hyp.


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## Camarath

Thanee said:
			
		

> Psionics in 3.5? I wouldn't touch that unless they revised the WHOLE book!



I am just glad they didn't include those horrible Psionic rules in the 3.5 SRD.


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## Zaruthustran

How about Bard 8/Divine Oracle ?

-z


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## ConcreteBuddha

Forgive me, for I have sinned: 


I played 3.5 with a newbie DM and a newbie group. They were playing barbarians and fighters and clerics and lots o' damage dealing characters.

My character was a half-elven bard.

I had a +19 to Diplomacy checks by level 2.



P.S. I was going to take one level of mindbender as well for the telepathy power. Oh, I am such an evil, evil munchkin.


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## Zaruthustran

ConcreteBuddha said:
			
		

> Forgive me, for I have sinned:
> 
> 
> I played 3.5 with a newbie DM and a newbie group. They were playing barbarians and fighters and clerics and lots o' damage dealing characters.
> 
> My character was a half-elven bard.
> 
> I had a +19 to Diplomacy checks by level 2.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I was going to take one level of mindbender as well for the telepathy power. Oh, I am such an evil, evil munchkin.




So was this how you got +19?

+4 from Cha 18 
+2 from half elf
+5 from ranks
+2 from negotiator
+2 bluff synergy
+2 knowledge: nobility synergy
+2 sense motive synergy
= +19

Whoa. You can, like, talk good. But what's your role in combat?

-z


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## Kae'Yoss

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Whoa. You can, like, talk good. But what's your role in combat?




Talking the enemy out of attacking the party.

And there is Roleplay out of combat, you know. It's perfectly OK to create a character that completely sucks at combat. (Unless he's a Fighter/Rogue/Blackguard, but it has been known to happen ) It might not be appropriate for every gaming group (so no Rokugani Courtier in a Diablo 2-goes-D&D campaign), but it can work.


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## ConcreteBuddha

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> So was this how you got +19?
> 
> +4 from Cha 18
> +2 from half elf
> +5 from ranks
> +2 from negotiator
> +2 bluff synergy
> +2 knowledge: nobility synergy
> +2 sense motive synergy
> = +19




Yes.

I was sad the campaign imploded, too. Skill focus: Diplomacy at level 3 was going to be neat.



> Whoa. You can, like, talk good. But what's your role in combat?
> 
> -z




You ask as if you have never used Presence or Dominate...
.
.
.
At high levels, I would be a god. Literally. 

One level of mindbender and a ring of invisibility: "The voices in my head tell me to stop attacking and help these poor, unfortunate adventurers."


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## reapersaurus

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Beat me to it.  I'm a big fan of Divine Might.



Well, if Hypersmurf's gonna chime in with postcount+1, I'll say,
"I'm a big fan of Divine Might, too."

'Course, Divine Shield is better, but much more expensive and limiting (in feats and equipment) to pull off easily.


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## Hypersmurf

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> 'Course, Divine Shield is better, but much more expensive and limiting (in feats and equipment) to pull off easily.




Both, both!  Divine Might _and_ Divine Shield.

Then get your Mount an Animated Shield, and use the Tome and Blood rules for Share Spells (which allows you to Share Su abilities) to give your dire lion your Cha bonus to damage and to enhance his shield as well...

-Hyp.


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## The Souljourner

That's hilarious, HS.   I'm guessing you can't shield bash with an animated shield, though... or can you?  That would be pretty ridiculous (besides which, I hate the whole animated/dancing shield thing... too cheesy).

BTW, thanks for the fanfare back there 

So I played my first bard in 3.x last night, and what do we go up against?  A black pudding.  Hrm....  and I forgot to bring a missile weapon.... foolish, foolish bard.

-The Souljourner


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## Hypersmurf

The Souljourner said:
			
		

> BTW, thanks for the fanfare back there




No, I meant the Brd-6 spell _Fanfare_, from Song and Silence 

-Hyp.


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## Avatar of the North

> Multiclassing Spellcasters = Suck. That's been true since 3rd edition came out and nothing has broken that rule. Ever.




Seems to me those Wizard 5/Pale master 1/Ur-priest 1/Contemplative 1/Mystic Theurge 9/(Arch mage or True Necromancer ) 3 are doing just fine to me with their 9th level arcane and 9th level divine spells. The true necromancer has a crazy caster level for necromancy or death domain spells (somethign in the area of caster level 37-39 for a 20th level character)

but as for Cha based characters. The following classes are nice for bonuses based on cha

Mystic Wander 1 - Glory of the Divine (Cha mod to ac as a sacred bonus)
Pirate of Freeport 1 - Reckless Abandon (Cha mod to ac as dodge bonus)
Arcane Dualist 2 - Apparent Defense (Cha mod to ac as an unnamed bonus)
Paladin 1 (2 in 3.5) - Divine Grace (cha mod to saves)
Soldier of Light 2 - Divine Grace (cha mod to saves)
Holy Liberator 2 - Divine Grace (cha mod to saves)
Witch Hunter 1 - Kami's Grace (Cha mod to saves)
Akodo Champion 2 - Ancestral Favor (Cha mod to saves)
Mysticism Domain (Prestige) - (Cha mod to saves)
Divine Might - spend turn attempt gain cha mod to dmg for cha mod rounds
Smite (something) -cha mod hit
--Akodo champion 2 - Smite Evil (Cha mod to hit, level to dmg)
--paladin smites
Iaijutsu Master 2 - Lightning Blade (Cha mod to init)

If you'd like the prereqs for any of those i'd be glad to dig that up as well.

Personally i'd find a Bard 10/Iaijutsu master 2 (or 5)/Paladin 3 (or when they get turn in 3.5)/Any class 5(or 2) to be interesting and crazy one that first hit due to Iaijutsu Focus+strike from the void.....no one ever said you had to STAY non-lawful as bards don't lose any abilities for becoming lawful


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## Arkhandus

A human or half-elf paladin/fighter/bard could be neat.  Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16 for a weapon-finesse rapier-wielding lightly-armored sort, or for a better-armored and large/medium-weapon-wielding sort go Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16.  Either way you'll have decent skill points, and saves due to Divine Grace.  Start off paladin, until 3rd-level, leaning towards neutral good as you go, but only slightly.  IC, start to think that the strict and stern path of the paladin might not quite be for you, that too many people suffer because the law is imperfect and innocents are slain or incarcerated, that sometimes being so absolutely firm in the law isn't always in the best interest of the greater good, and that too many corrupt people use the law to gain power at the sufferance of others.  This drives you to leave the path of the paladin, and become a fighter at 4th and 5th level, finally making the shift to neutral good by 5th-level.  Then multiclass to a bard at 6th, and continue on as a bard from that point, maybe gaining 1-2 more levels of fighter over time if you feel you need more combat power.  You won't suffer any multiclassing penalties as a human or half-elf.

Either way, you'll have 4 attacks per round by 18th, 19th, or 20th level, and your combat power early on will offset your initially weak spellcasting.  Your bard levels will allow you to use many different magic items well, and maybe even create some if needed, plus you could put a lotta ranks into Use Magic Device while your good Charisma boosts the skill a little bit further.  Your good charisma will make Lay Hands, Divine Grace, and Turn Undead pretty decent while you build up your bardic repertoire of spells.

You'll be fairly useful early on and not as weak later like a pure bard would be, so you should be a good addition to the party overall, with good fighting skills early on (and still respectable fighting ability later) and good social skills, while possessing at least a mediocre number of skills and fairly good saving throws and resistances (ftr/pal give good Fortitude, bard gives good Reflex/Will, Divine Grace makes it all better on top of that, and if you're a half-elf you gain a bonus against Enchantment as well as immunity to Sleep, in addition to your nifty paladin immunities, and bardic music might even bolster your defense too).


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## Gnome Berzerker

jgsugden said:
			
		

> If you want to do more role playing, I suggest a rogue. They have lots of charisma based skills. They also have a lot of opportunities to create role playing opportunities.
> 
> Talking your way out of incarceration can be fun.





What does your class have to do with any more or less roleplaying?



			
				Arkhandus said:
			
		

> A human or half-elf paladin/fighter/bard could be neat.  Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16 for a weapon-finesse rapier-wielding lightly-armored sort, or for a better-armored and large/medium-weapon-wielding sort go Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16.  Either way you'll have decent skill points, and saves due to Divine Grace.  Start off paladin, until 3rd-level, leaning towards neutral good as you go, but only slightly.  IC, start to think that the strict and stern path of the paladin might not quite be for you, that too many people suffer because the law is imperfect and innocents are slain or incarcerated, that sometimes being so absolutely firm in the law isn't always in the best interest of the greater good, and that too many corrupt people use the law to gain power at the sufferance of others.  This drives you to leave the path of the paladin, and become a fighter at 4th and 5th level, finally making the shift to neutral good by 5th-level.  Then multiclass to a bard at 6th, and continue on as a bard from that point, maybe gaining 1-2 more levels of fighter over time if you feel you need more combat power.  You won't suffer any multiclassing penalties as a human or half-elf.





I think once you stray from LG Alignment, you lose ALL Paladin abilities.  I could be wrong, though.  IDHMBIFOM.


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## Gnome Berzerker

double post


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## Rolzup

I'm playing a charisma-focused rogue right now, and I've gotta say: it's the most entertaining character I've ever had.

We're playing 3.0 at this point, but we're using some of the 3.5 feats and such.  I probably would have gone with the Bard if I'd seen the revised version, but as it is?  I'm quite happy.

He's a fourth level character right now, Rogue 2/Fighter 2, with a good +15 or so in Bluff and Diplomacy.  Can't climb, open locks, disarm traps, or anything of the sort.  He can sneak a little, but not well enough to stay out of trouble.

I've been leaning pretty heavily on the "Improved Feint" feat to allow him to hold his own in combat, but his main strength has been in avoiding combat altogether.  He's talked the party out of trouble on a number of occasions, which helps to make up for his abject cowardice.

The current plan is to go for another two levels of Rogue, and then switch to a variant on the "Halfling Jobber" prestige class from a recent issue of Dragon.  I'm calling it the "Scoundrel", and have made a few superficial changes, but it gives some fun social-style abilities.  I mean really, how can you go wrong with "Favored Mark"?

What I would most like is some version of D20 Modern's "Charismatic Hero".  That would have been 100% perfect for the character I wanted to play...but this version ain't bad at all, really.

Rolzup


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## Tidus4444

Could someone please post a link to Monte's variant bard?  Or is it in the book of eldritch mighT?


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## Thanee

BoEM 2 IIRC.

Bye
Thanee


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