# Review of extended scenes in Two Towers (spoilers)



## Farland (Nov 18, 2003)

Thanks to good ole' Walmart, I got my version a day early and watched it last night. I always thought the Two Towers movie was not as good as Fellowship, and I give the new scenes a B+. It almost had an A, but let me tell you why it gets a B+ (scroll down) 
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All scenes were great until Faramir and the rangers of Ithilien. It shows them "roughing up" Gollum, in a VERY brutal fashion. Even Faramir later joins in. That really takes away from his character, which they were starting to do a good job of building up. He's not Tony Soprano. 

The scene in Gondor was ALL wrong. Osgiliath falling because of Faramir and won back by Boromir? I don't think so. Plus how would "rumors that the ring of power has been found reach GOndor"? Ummm, no. 

Finally, please do away with all the stupid anachronisms. Gimli says, "my axe is embedded in his nervous system"!!!!    

But the scenes with the orcs were great, the extended battles were great, and Burnam Wood coming to Dunsinane was great. 

What did you guys think?


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## frankthedm (Nov 18, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> .
> 
> All scenes were great until Faramir and the rangers of Ithilien. It shows them "roughing up" Gollum, in a VERY brutal fashion. Even Faramir later joins in. That really takes away from his character, which they were starting to do a good job of building up. He's not Tony Soprano.




I think you are a bit too squeemish.


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## Farland (Nov 18, 2003)

No, Frank, you're missing the point.  It is not the violence that bothered me, it is the character implications.  Why would Faramir order his rangers to basically torture a helpless opponent?  Plus he later does more of the same to Gollum.  Faramir is meant to be more noble than his brother, and this scene alone makes him far less noble.  It is a mafia tactic.  Jackson didn't need it as motivation for Gollum's betrayal, as evinced by three points: it was not in the movie version, the Ring is motivation enough, and TOlkien of course didn't feel it was necessary.  It is simply gratuitous cruelty fit for orcs, not noble rangers.


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## Numion (Nov 18, 2003)

Actually, I think that the additional scenes made Faramirs character much better. He seemed odd in the regular version. 

Whats so bad about roughing an odd fellow who was already supposed to be killed by Gondors laws? I admit though that I was annoyed by gollum in TTT, so it was fun to see him beaten up 

It also made more sense why he would betray them later. As it was in the normal version, gollums betrayal seemed a bit extreme, he wasn't harmed much.


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## Numion (Nov 18, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> Plus how would "rumors that the ring of power has been found reach GOndor"? Ummm, no.




Uh, Gandalf _did_ visit that place when seeking info on Isildurs Bane. Plus Denethor does have a Palantir.


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## Farland (Nov 19, 2003)

> It also made more sense why he would betray them later. As it was in the normal version, gollums betrayal seemed a bit extreme, he wasn't harmed much.




*Sigh*  Seriously?  

And what is so bad about "roughing up" Gollum?  Don't you see that makes Faramir as bad as the enemy?

Lastly, do you really think that Gandalf would have bragged it around that the Ring of Power was found?  In Gondor, knowing full well that they would want it, and that the spies of Sauron would hear of it if word got out in Gondor?  The palantir would also not be able to see the ring of power.  At least it didn't help in the book, but who knows with a Peter Jackson palantir?


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## KenM (Nov 19, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> Why would Faramir order his rangers to basically torture a helpless opponent?  Plus he later does more of the same to Gollum.




  I did not get the impression that Faramir ordered them to beat Gollum, to me it was something that the soldiers did, and Faramir told them to stop it. If "more of the same", you mean Faramir choking Gollum when He showed them the tunnel that lead outside the city, He wanted to make sure that Frodo and Sam would be safe, and had to make sure Gollum got the point.


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## LoneWolf23 (Nov 19, 2003)

Also, you have to get into the context that Faramir and his Rangers are actually living inside Enemy territory, and are dealing with Orcs and Orclike creatures on a daily basis.  I'd expect them to be rather harsh with captive orclike creatures like Gollum.

And while Gandalf wouldn't have blabbed about The Ring, no doubt some would've become suspicious about his reading up on Isildur's Bane, and the theory of The Ring's reappearance would've been a strong possible rumor.


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## Ranger REG (Nov 19, 2003)

"Noble rangers"???

These men are feared ever since Strider came onto the scene in _FOTR._ That bartender in Bree who answered Frodo's question, is not too happy nor proud to have a ranger in his establishment.

As for rumors, well, they tends to travel much faster than the actual truth. Of course, it didn't helped when those ringwraiths are roaming around looking for the supposed ring of power without much subtlety. Or many news from travelers of goblins and orcs moving and gathering at the Two Towers.


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## Farland (Nov 19, 2003)

> "Noble rangers"???
> 
> These men are feared ever since Strider came onto the scene in FOTR. That bartender in Bree who answered Frodo's question, is not too happy nor proud to have a ranger in his establishment.
> 
> As for rumors, well, they tends to travel much faster than the actual truth. Of course, it didn't helped when those ringwraiths are roaming around looking for the supposed ring of power without much subtlety. Or many news from travelers of goblins and orcs moving and gathering at the Two Towers.




Yes, noble rangers.  Barliman Butterbur was out-and-out wrong on his characterization of the rangers.

And the Ringwraithis were looking for Baggins, not the ring.  They most assuredly would NOT have mentioned the ring to anyone in their search.  And the goblins and orcs also did not know that they were searching for the Ring of Power (except for the occasional high-up exception, and they would not dare speak of it).  Sauron feared that someone like Gandalf or Galadriel might find the ring first, use it to dethrone him, and set themselves up in his place.  The finding of the ring and the search for it was secret.


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## Wraith Form (Nov 19, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> First post:  What did you guys think?
> 
> Last post:  Yes, noble rangers.  Barliman Butterbur was out-and-out wrong on his characterization of the rangers.



 Jesus, why'd you even bother to ask what we think when you've already made up your mind?  Everyone who's disagreed with your (obviously correct) view on this film has been argued with by you.  (I'm waiting for you to argue with me on this, too.)

 Feh.  [/rant]


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## Piratecat (Nov 19, 2003)

Take it easy, gang. Sheesh, I never expected arguments about _this._

And yup, Denethor knew about the ring of power because of his palantir. That's pretty straight-forward, I think.


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## Endur (Nov 19, 2003)

The Wraiths mentioned the ring to Dain and the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain.  They even offered several of the dwarf rings in exchange for it or knowledge of where to find Baggins and the Shire.

I agree that Faramir's characterization still doesn't sit right with me, but its better than the regular movie characterization.  

Overall, I liked the extra content.  Good stuff about Theodred and the Ents and the pipeweed cache.  Even the piece about Aragorn having the horse freed that later wakes him up.

When I first saw The Two Towers, I didn't understand why we were looking at elves at Helm's Deep.

The elves should have been fighting in Lolthlorien or Mirkwood against Orcs from the Misty Mountains and Dol Gulder.  Now, I've come to the realization that Peter Jackson didn't want to talk about Mirkwood and Dol Gulder and the Lonely Mountain.  He wants to avoid lots of geography and focus on just a few spots.  So, in that case, I understand wanting to focus just on Helm's Deep.


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## jdavis (Nov 19, 2003)

Denethor knew about the ring, who cares how, he knew because that made the scene work, in the end it doesn't matter or effect the story. Everybody roughs up gollum, he actually tells them to stop, that's good enough for me. I didn't like Faramir in the theatrical release but the extended release fixed that.

As far as all the changes to Faramir, well there is a whole documentary on why they had to change things in Two Towers (they go in depth into the need to change Faramir in the movie and why, among other things). It is very informative on the choices they had to make as told by the people who made the changes. You really got to see this documetary if you have questions about why they changed things.

My feelings on the extended version, well I didn't like the theatric version, I don't own it, and I won't watch it again, the extended version fixed almost all my problems (and the biography on the script helped a lot too). I am thrilled  to death with it. My biggest problem with two towers was I didn't care for all the jumping around and quick edits (It gave me a horrible headache the first time) the extended scenes and the added scenes makes it flow so much better. And thank goodness Fangorn got to move and kill orcs.

You got to see the documentary on disk 3 (From Book to Script: Finding the Story), I'm so glad they took the time to explain why they had to change things and the process they took.


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## Farland (Nov 19, 2003)

> Everyone who's disagreed with your (obviously correct) view on this film has been argued with by you




No, disagreed with.  It is a discussion.  You try to convince me off your points or teach me something new, and I try to convince or teach you.  I thought that was what message boards were for.


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## drnuncheon (Nov 19, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> No, disagreed with.




Speaking as an outside observer, your 'disagreements' come  off as very argumentative.  Saying things with a tone like  "No, Frank, you're missing the point." and "*Sigh* Seriously?" does indeed make it seem like a) your mind is made up and b) you're utterly dismissing the idea that the other guy might have a point - which does not make for a good discussion.  You might want to phrase things a little bit differently.

J


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## Piratecat (Nov 19, 2003)

I'm such a weenie. Our copy will probably get to us today or tomorrow, but we went out to rent it last night! We didn't want to wait. Mmmm, ent-draughty goodness.


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## Numion (Nov 19, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> *Sigh*  Seriously?
> 
> And what is so bad about "roughing up" Gollum?  Don't you see that makes Faramir as bad as the enemy?
> 
> Lastly, do you really think that Gandalf would have bragged it around that the Ring of Power was found?  In Gondor, knowing full well that they would want it, and that the spies of Sauron would hear of it if word got out in Gondor?  The palantir would also not be able to see the ring of power.  At least it didn't help in the book, but who knows with a Peter Jackson palantir?




In the books even Gandalf admitted to hurting Gollum when he questioned it, so it isn't a big deal. 

Faramirs troops were in a hostile zone, killing many enemies. Why shouldn't they rough up an ugly-ass orc-looking gollum? He's clearly evil and up to no good.  So roughing him up was good. If he'd taken it a bit further, he could've prevented his betrayal. 

Well, Palantir couldn't see the ring, of course, but it sure as hell could see all the ruckus with ringwraiths and etc. Denethor isn't stupid, you know.


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## Null Boundry (Nov 19, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Take it easy, gang. Sheesh, I never expected arguments about _this._




You never expected bickering when the works of Tolkien are mentioned? 

I'm sorry but I don't believe someone can be that naive.


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## thalmin (Nov 19, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'm such a weenie. Our copy will probably get to us today or tomorrow, but we went out to rent it last night! We didn't want to wait. Mmmm, ent-draughty goodness.



I went and ordered the Gollum (not Smeagle) statue that is a companion piece to the one in the deluxe set.


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## kengar (Nov 19, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> Yes, noble rangers.  Barliman Butterbur was out-and-out wrong on his characterization of the rangers.




In the books, the rangers are perceived by common folk (like Butterbur) as shiftless and wild. The truth -which is spelled out prettty plainly in the books- is that the rangers are actually the last of the Numenorians. They are actually the _most_ noble men in Middle Earth. They "wander" in the wilds protecting the north from orcs & worse. Granted, this isn't made plain in the movies, though.

However, you also have to keep in mind that Faramir's rangers aren't the same rangers that Aragorn leads, they are men of Gondor, most of them of the middle race. They are decent men and not brutes in the book, though.


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## kkoie (Nov 19, 2003)

Null Boundry said:
			
		

> You never expected bickering when the works of Tolkien are mentioned?
> 
> I'm sorry but I don't believe someone can be that naive.





True, one of the most heated arguments in Tolkienism conserns the Balrog.  

Anyway I thought the added scenes were great.  Specially the ones with Faramir.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Nov 19, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> The scene in Gondor was ALL wrong. Osgiliath falling because of Faramir and won back by Boromir? I don't think so.




Important note:  That's what Denethor said.  Everyone else stepped up for Faramir and defended him on this point, so I think it's fair to say that Denethor was off-base, considering his opinion of his second son.  Overall, I think the Faramir scenes helped him out.

I noted the "nervous system" remark, but it was a funny one.


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## Piratecat (Nov 19, 2003)

They probably cut the nervous system scene because it was slightly anachronistic; I wish they had said "skull" instead. What a great scene!

Seriously, with the additional footage almost everything I disliked about the theatrical release has been fixed. I'm much, much happier about the middle movie.


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## Pants (Nov 19, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Take it easy, gang. Sheesh, I never expected arguments about _this._
> 
> And yup, Denethor knew about the ring of power because of his palantir. That's pretty straight-forward, I think.



It's not mentioned in the movies, but Boromir was also having dreams of Isildur's Bane.  I *Think* that was one of the reasons for going to Imladris.


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## Rhialto (Nov 19, 2003)

Pants said:
			
		

> It's not mentioned in the movies, but Boromir was also having dreams of Isildur's Bane.  I *Think* that was one of the reasons for going to Imladris.




Umm, yes it is.  *Fellowship of the Ring, Extended Edition*.  Council of Elrond.


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## kengar (Nov 19, 2003)

Pants said:
			
		

> It's not mentioned in the movies, but Boromir was also having dreams of Isildur's Bane.  I *Think* that was one of the reasons for going to Imladris.




As Rhialto mentioned, it is touched upon in the extended version of FOTR. 

In the books, Faramir has this dream a few times (six?) and Boromir once. Boromir insists upon being the one to go to Imladris (Rivendell), however. It should also be noted, though, that in the books, they (Boromir & Faramir) don't initially know what "Isildur's Bane" refers to.


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## Pants (Nov 19, 2003)

Rhialto said:
			
		

> Umm, yes it is.  *Fellowship of the Ring, Extended Edition*.  Council of Elrond.



It is?  
I'll be damned...


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## Farland (Nov 19, 2003)

> And yup, Denethor knew about the ring of power because of his palantir. That's pretty straight-forward, I think.




I don't think so.  If Denethor could know about the Ring of Power using his Palantir, couldn't Sauron (who was undoubtedly looking for it specifically and not happening upon it by chance) have known about it the same way.  He certainly did not know about it through his Palantir, so I think it is unrealistic to assume that Denethor could have.  Nor would he have learned about it by observing, say, Rivendell, because the Stones didn't transmit sound, and they could also be occluded by some special technique.  If any places in Middle Earth would be occluded it would be Rivendell and Lorien.

So I think that the Palantir option is out.

And they didn't "also" know about Isildur's bane from a dream in the book... that was the only way they knew.  It is clear, plot-wise, that it basically had to be this way, or things would have been quite different.  The Nazgul might not have been the only horsemen Frodo had to dodge on the way to Imladris... he might have had to dodge armed Gondorian riders who were also seeking the ring.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 19, 2003)

Palantir, Shmalantir.  Didn't Denethor know about the ring because he'd received the summons for the Council of Elrond?


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## Farland (Nov 19, 2003)

No.  I believe in the book he received no summons.  Boromir showed up uninvited because of the dream.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 19, 2003)

kengar said:
			
		

> As Rhialto mentioned, it is touched upon in the extended version of FOTR.
> 
> In the books, Faramir has this dream a few times (six?) and Boromir once. Boromir insists upon being the one to go to Imladris (Rivendell), however. It should also be noted, though, that in the books, they (Boromir & Faramir) don't initially know what "Isildur's Bane" refers to.




My only complaint about the EE TT is that while it strengthens Faramir, that scene kind of detracted from Boromir.

I have no problem with people knowing that The Ring had been found. I'd actually say more people knew about it, but they just weren't looking in the right place. 

And, shame all all the internet people for making Liv cry!


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## KenM (Nov 20, 2003)

I did think that the line "he twiched because my axe was in its nervious system" was a out of place. How do they know about nervous systems? The line was too modern for me. But it was a funny scene.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Nov 20, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> I don't think so.  If Denethor could know about the Ring of Power using his Palantir, couldn't Sauron (who was undoubtedly looking for it specifically and not happening upon it by chance) have known about it the same way.




Sauron knew about the ring because he tortured the information out of Gollum.  He also knew a heck of a lot more than Denethor; Denethor just suspects the Ring has been found - Sauron knows it's been found, where it's been, who owned it after Gollum, the location of that person, and more.


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## Chauzu (Nov 20, 2003)

I like all that was added to the film. It definetly improves the movie greatly for me. I especially like the funeral scene where Éowyn sings, and the part where the orcs flee from Helms Deep into the forest.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 20, 2003)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Palantir, Shmalantir.  Didn't Denethor know about the ring because he'd received the summons for the Council of Elrond?



 Aren't we talking about the movie (specifically the extended edition) here?  If you say that's the way it was written in the book, I'll believe you.  I'm saying, in the DVD, doesn't Denethor pull Boromir aside at Osgiliath and say something to the effect that "The weapon of the enemy has been found.  There's going to be a council at Rivendell to discuss what to do with it."  I just figured some messenger told him.


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## JRRNeiklot (Nov 20, 2003)

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> Jesus, why'd you even bother to ask what we think when you've already made up your mind?   Feh.  [/rant]





Because he's right.


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## Dimwhit (Nov 20, 2003)

You know what my complaint is with the extended TT? The stupid box. It's not the same color as FotR extended box, so it doesn't match! Stupid boxes not matching...

Haven't actually had a chance to watch the extended version yet, though. But I'm sure I'll like it.


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## Tsyr (Nov 20, 2003)

It's gonna piss you off when the third one is blue isn't it?


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## Dimwhit (Nov 20, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> It's gonna piss you off when the third one is blue isn't it?



Tell me about it...


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## billd91 (Nov 20, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> I don't think so.  If Denethor could know about the Ring of Power using his Palantir, couldn't Sauron (who was undoubtedly looking for it specifically and not happening upon it by chance) have known about it the same way.  He certainly did not know about it through his Palantir, so I think it is unrealistic to assume that Denethor could have.  Nor would he have learned about it by observing, say, Rivendell, because the Stones didn't transmit sound, and they could also be occluded by some special technique.  If any places in Middle Earth would be occluded it would be Rivendell and Lorien.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think you're obsession WAY too much about how Denethor could have known about the ring being found. In the books, Denethor is an extremely shrewd individual. Knowing about the sending out of the Ringwraiths, knowing that Gandalf is digging through old archives from Isildur's time, seeing the increased activity of the Enemy... all these could lead him to make certain conclusions without using a palantir. Any and all of those reasons could suffice to give Denethor more of a clue than the average Joe that Sauron's ring is back in circulation somewhere and that Sauron doesn't have it yet (otherwise the Ringwraiths wouldn't be running around and the hammer would already be falling). So let it go. It's OK movie-making short hand so that we, the viewers, know that Denethor is well aware of what's going on in the world... as is crystal clear in the books.


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## jdavis (Nov 21, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> They probably cut the nervous system scene because it was slightly anachronistic; I wish they had said "skull" instead. What a great scene!
> 
> Seriously, with the additional footage almost everything I disliked about the theatrical release has been fixed. I'm much, much happier about the middle movie.



Fixed every problem, answered every question and turned a movie I didn't care for into a movie I loved, not a bad days work for Peter Jackson. The best part for me though was that I had a $15 replay rewards certificate so the movie only cost me $15 (so I bought the Aquateen Hunger Force DVD too). It was all a big win situation for me.


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## theburningman (Nov 21, 2003)

Has anybody watched the "From Book to Script" documentary in the appendices yet?  PJ and Co. talk about why they found it necessary to make the changes they did in TTT.  The one that I found the most interesting was why they changed Faramir so much.

According to them, if Faramir just shrugged off the influence of the ring (as I believe he did in the book), it kills the dramatic tension that they have spent about five hours of film building.  That got me to thinking that the changes in Faramir's character were very well done.  If I was a Middle-Earth novice, and the events in the film followed those in the book, I might wonder why on Earth you wouldn't give the ring to Faramir, since he apparently can't be swayed by its power.

A similar question was raised in a fantasy literature course I took at the University of Georgia 10 years (best class _ever_, by the way).  One of the students asked why they didn't just give the ring to Sam, since when he does get it for a short time, he shrugs off its power.  Another answered that Sam has to be there for Frodo, that if Tolkien had given the ring to Sam and it had affected him, Frodo would not have been able to resist it as effectively if it fell to him.

I accepted this explanation, but now I'm really wondering what reason there could be not to give the ring to Faramir.  Could someone who has read the book more recently throw out some ideas?

(The EE improved upon TTT in every way, by the way.  I wasn't completely satisfied with the theatrical release, but now it is a worthy companion to FotR.  Even the silly things, like Eowyn's soup and the axe in the nervous system, were so humorous that I can't complain about them.)


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## kengar (Nov 21, 2003)

theburningman said:
			
		

> One of the students asked why they didn't just give the ring to Sam, since when he does get it for a short time, he shrugs off its power.  Another answered that Sam has to be there for Frodo, that if Tolkien had given the ring to Sam and it had affected him, Frodo would not have been able to resist it as effectively if it fell to him.
> 
> I accepted this explanation, but now I'm really wondering what reason there could be not to give the ring to Faramir.  Could someone who has read the book more recently throw out some ideas?




In the case of Sam, the primary thing that drives his will is his love for his master, Frodo. Sam only holds and uses the Ring for a very short time. During that time, Sam is more or less fixated on rescuing Frodo. Even then, when he gives the Ring back to Frodo, he is reluctant. 

There was a brief moment of temptation when Sam first takes the Ring which he resists with "plain old hobbit sense"; but if he had left his master for dead (as he originally thought Frodo was) and headed for Mt. Doom, I would wager the Ring would have won him over eventually. 

In the case of Faramir, I think the thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between _refusing_ the Ring (resisting) and _bearing_ the Ring (enduring). People like Faramir & Galadriel manage to "just say no" but Frodo doesn't have that option. He must carry the Ring and endure its weight and its attempts to erode his will and sanity.

Another thing to remember with Tolkien is there is a certain element of destiny in his stories. Frodo is _fated_ to take the Ring. It is his Doom. So -in the stories- events, etc. are going to tend to play out in a way that leaves him with the Ring and the task that was "appointed" to him.


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## barsoomcore (Nov 21, 2003)

Okay, the Extended Edition is a VAST improvement over the theatrical release. Many of the elements that really bugged me in the theatre (like Faramir's portrayal and the general frenetic pacing) are handled much better.

There's still a couple of things that I think are just plain failures, not even questions of style or taste. Just plain bad film-making.

1. The characters keep talking to themselves

There's any number of scenes where characters, standing around by themselves, start announcing things to nobody. It's especially bad in the early parts with the Three Hunters -- Legolas will run up to the camera, with Aragorn and Gimli each clearly a hundred yards away or more, and declaims on how long they've been running. That's just lame. In the book, they're talking to each other, but every time there's one of these moments in the film I'm tempted to yell, "Who are you talking to!?"

2. The sudden appearance of a hundred Ents

I can accept the "Pippin tricks Treebeard" idea -- I think a slow building of wrath among the Ents would have been BETTER, but with the new pacing I can handle Treebeard walking out into the clearcut and freaking out.

What is just too much to accept is the hundred Ents that suddenly pop out of the woodwork (so to speak). After all the swooping helicopter shots showing us how big and dense Fangorn is, after all this time spent with Treebeard walking alone and saying, "There's not so many of us anymore, and we move slowly, us Ents," where the heck do all these bozos come from?

It's just not believable, no matter what your take on the revised plotting is.

3. The water effects in Isengard.

Wow, what a disappointment. After all these wonderful shots (that sequence in FotR with the moth counts for me as one of the great moments in cinema history) swooping through the great halls and shafts of Isengard, we get this AWFUL miniature work -- it's CLEARLY a miniature with a couple of buckets of muddy water poured on it. 

I know water's hard to do. I know. That doesn't make it look any more real. I just hope PJ winces every time he sees that, and wishes he'd kept the whole thing off-screen.

Other things that still bug me, but I consider questions of taste:

Gimli the comic relief. I don't mind the occasional goofy bit, but they've turned his entire character into the wacky sidekick. It's disappointing. His fight sequences seemed to have been elaborated on in the EE, it seemed. Which I approve of.

Not hard-core enough. Where does everybody go in Helm's Deep? When Theoden gives the order to fall back into the keep and surrender the gate, we cut to the inner hall and there's half-a-dozen guys holding the door while Aragorn and Theoden debate what to do.

Where'd everybody go?

I know, I know -- _they're dead_. But we don't see them anywhere -- there's a surprising lack of carnage in the shots of the orcs rampaging through the gatehouse. Very few bodies -- certainly not enough to account for all the men who were standing there just moments ago. We needed more dead bodies -- we needed to see more people (like the kids especially) dying and suffering. The battle's just not powerful enough for me -- it's not gripping the way the final fight in FotR was. And I think that's because we're not seeing enough people get kakked.

Call me bloodthirsty, but I want to see them PAYING THE PRICE. LotR is all about the price good men and women pay for doing the right thing. I will love these heroes more if they have to suffer more.

Sam's noble speech. Poor Sean Astin -- what a thankless bit of dialogue to have to get through, especially with his on-again, off-again accent. It was just poorly written and over-scored and he never really nailed it. That should have been three sentences long, something simple in that Gamgee fashion.

And shield-surfing's just lame. Puh-leeze.

On the other hand, there's lots to like. I'm a Faramir fan, now. I thought the added Osgiliath scene really helped all that -- plus it made Boromir's fall seem even more tragic -- you could see that he was a decent guy honestly trying to do the right thing.

Miranda Otto is absolutely radiant. She is the perfect Eowyn, and I get goosebumps when I think of her saying "Begone, foul dwimmerlaik!"

Liv Tyler.

Likewise Bernard Lee as Theoden. "Where is the horse and the rider?" Yikes.

Billy Boyd and Dominic Monahan and Elijah Wood and Sean Astin continue to absolutely embody their characters. Boyd's moment of realisation in Fangorn was heartbreaking, just as the added scene of flotsam and jetsam was heartwarming.

Liv Tyler.

Haldir's fall likewise was a great moment.

And that has to count as the greatest screen explosion of all time. Hoo boy.

Liv Tyler.

...

Liv Tyler.

...

Sorry, what?


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## Numion (Nov 21, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> 3. The water effects in Isengard.
> 
> Wow, what a disappointment. After all these wonderful shots (that sequence in FotR with the moth counts for me as one of the great moments in cinema history) swooping through the great halls and shafts of Isengard, we get this AWFUL miniature work -- it's CLEARLY a miniature with a couple of buckets of muddy water poured on it.




My thoughts exactly. I noticed this in the theaters, and when I discussed it with my friends afterwards, they hadn't noticed anything. I couldn't understand how anyone could miss it, it was totally "wrong size" water. 

In reality they used like a million litres of water, but it still looks bad.


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## jdavis (Nov 21, 2003)

I got a kick out of the footage of Arwin fighting at Helms Deep and her saying that she did read the internet comments they had in the documentaries, that and the footage of Elrond actually going to Lorien, man talk about a bullet dodged there. You can just imagine what kind of ruckus those changes would of made.

I didn't knotice the flooding of Isengard being that bad, I'll have to go back and watch that.

Yea the scene where there were there were only 10 or so soldiers holding the Helms Deep keep gate was sort of odd, in the scene before they showed hundreds of guys getting to safety and then there are only a dozen soldiers left to hold the gate, then they ride out with hundreds of mounted soldiers a few minutes later, where did all those guys go? And did all the elves die? Where were they for the last ride out? (At least Arwin wasn't there leading them to victory).

All the Ents jumping out of the woods at the end was probably done more for dramatic purposes, I mean how exciting would it of been if Treebeard called them for war then the Hobbits took naps while they all slowly lumbered through the woods. _Treebeard:"A sorcerer should know better, and the day after tomorrow when everybody else shows up we'll show him..... anybody want some tea?"_

I sort of liked Sam's speech and the shield surfing bit was more for the kids in the audience, just twich and wince through it and it is over quick (just like the Dr Gimli Neurosurgeon bit). 

I loved the Flotsam and Jetsam scene, I'm happy with the much better portrayal of Faramir and I loved the scene with Eowyn and her soup. If only they could of gotten rid of Aragorn falling off the cliff, but I guess that was just too ingrained into the plot.


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## Assenpfeffer (Nov 22, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Sam's noble speech. Poor Sean Astin -- what a thankless bit of dialogue to have to get through, especially with his on-again, off-again accent. It was just poorly written and over-scored and he never really nailed it. That should have been three sentences long, something simple in that Gamgee fashion.




That's my absolute favorite bit in either version of the movie.  It's the moment, which I think will be reinforced in RotK, when Sam becomes the real hero of the story.


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## Assenpfeffer (Nov 22, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> I didn't knotice the flooding of Isengard being that bad, I'll have to go back and watch that.




I've seen it probably around 50 times.  While some of the shots don't look _quite_ right, I hardly think it looks terrible.  And as Numion points out, thousands of gallons of water were actually used - the miniature was the size of a baseball diamond - so it's not as if the whole thing was done in an office.


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## Bass Puppet (Nov 22, 2003)

I just got the EE of TTT with the Weta Gollum Statue (Great Sculpture) and viewed it on my day off yesterday. I have to say it is much better than I had anticipated. I'm looking forward to next year when I can sit down, get totaly wasted, and watch all three EE in one day.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 23, 2003)

I haven't read the books in forever, plan on reading them again after the movies are done, so anything I say is with that in mind.

Ents vs Isengard: I actually figured a lot of the damage was done by tree's under the ent's control, as opposed to all Ents themselves. It's also conceivable that the departing Ent's were closer. Besides, there's no strict accounting of time during the call really.

Water looked fine, quite nit picking! 

I noticed the Helms Deep blink-soldiers, but wrote it off as there being more rooms truthfully. Then they all rallied for the Horn Blowing.

While watching the EE DVD, I did FF through Sam's speech. It was okay the first time.

the "spear then draw and fire arrow" thing was great in the first movie. Shouldn't have been used again. The shield surfing was stupid IMO, but the swing into the saddle was great! 

As for the speechs during the march, I think they were trying to condense it as much as possible and make it seem like time had passed. So they had speech, then cut to a scene of running, then speech. I don't find it hard to assume they're speaking to each other, but I agree it's a blah point. 

mmm, Arwen. Arwen is so much prettier than Galadriel


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## theburningman (Nov 23, 2003)

> Water looked fine, quite nit picking!




I will say that although I think this movie is fantastic and a worth second chapter, after the "big" water was pointed out to me, I wondered how that got by them in post-production.  There's only one extremely short shot that I think looks really bad, but to me, it's like the lightsabers losing their "lightsabery-ness" in Obi-Wan and Darth Vader's battle in _Star Wars_; why didn't they just go back and fix it?



> While watching the EE DVD, I did FF through Sam's speech.




I still think this is a great moment in the film.  But to me, the two defining moments, the parts that punch me in the gut every time I watch these films, are the fall of Gandalf and the reactions of the Fellowship in FotR, and the final ride of Theoden and Co. combined with the charge of Gandalf and Eomer's cavalry.  Some of the most powerful filmmaking I've ever experienced.




> the "spear then draw and fire arrow" thing was great in the first movie. Shouldn't have been used again. The shield surfing was stupid IMO, but the swing into the saddle was great!




Actually, when I saw TTT at the theater, I kind of winced when I Legolas swung onto the saddle; it did look fake to me.  But when I saw the DVD, it looked fantastic, flawless and real.  Must be the difference between film and digital medium.


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## jdavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> I've seen it probably around 50 times. While some of the shots don't look _quite_ right, I hardly think it looks terrible. And as Numion points out, thousands of gallons of water were actually used - the miniature was the size of a baseball diamond - so it's not as if the whole thing was done in an office.



Well I went back and watched the movie with a friend and I still didn't notice any problems with the flooding of Isengard, looks fine to me, it wasn't awe inspiring but it wasn't that bad either.


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## Chauzu (Nov 23, 2003)

My only gripes:

Well... I do wish they got rid of that dwarf tossing scene. How much would Gimli weigh in all that armor? I can't even throw 80 lbs that far without putting my body in it alot.

And they should have made Treebeards voice a bit clearer.


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## KenM (Nov 23, 2003)

with regards to the flooding of Isengard and them using minis, how else would they have done it? Looked fine to me, in some shots you could tell it was mini work, but thats no big deal IMO.


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## Dimwhit (Nov 23, 2003)

I just watched the Ents attack on Isengard. I thought it looked fantastic.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 23, 2003)

theburningman said:
			
		

> I still think this is a great moment in the film.  But to me, the two defining moments, the parts that punch me in the gut every time I watch these films, are the fall of Gandalf and the reactions of the Fellowship in FotR, and the final ride of Theoden and Co. combined with the charge of Gandalf and Eomer's cavalry.  Some of the most powerful filmmaking I've ever experienced.




In the theater, Sam's speech was good. In the theater, Gandalf's fall was something. But, they don't have repeat watchability for me. Especially in Fellowship, the constant slo-mo "is he dead" stuff was overused for my opinion. 

So, for myself, it's great the first time, but just kind of doesn't hold the same strength on rewatching.

Oh, and Gandalf should have turned, smiled, got whipped into the abyss and fell. The delay just didn't work for me. Legolas should have been able to put a pair of arrows into his sleeves or something.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 23, 2003)

I liked the theatrical version of The Two Towers (comic-relief be damned), and I liked the extended version even more. More Ents are always good, the Flotsam and Jetsam scene is really cool (and in the spirit of Tolkien) and the Arwen scenes weren't as annoying this time around, for whatever reason. 

I've been arguing for the "villianization" of Faramir (creates tension without Shelob, empowers the Ring, humanizes Faramir) since the theatrical release, and all of his added scenes make his redemption (letting them go) even better.

My only gripe is that the scene in the beginning as Gollum argues with himself over leading the hobbits out of the rock maze softens the impact of the "schizo scene" where Smeagol banishes Gollum. That was such an impressive scene (especially the first time), and the added scene sort of previews it.

Demiurge out.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 23, 2003)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I liked the theatrical version of The Two Towers (comic-relief be damned), and I liked the extended version even more. More Ents are always good, the Flotsam and Jetsam scene is really cool (and in the spirit of Tolkien) and the Arwen scenes weren't as annoying this time around, for whatever reason.



Is it just me, or did they CUT some of the Arwen stuff? I'm not positive but it seems there's less of it. Could be just stuff added has changed the style enough to seem like that, I dunno.



> My only gripe is that the scene in the beginning as Gollum argues with himself over leading the hobbits out of the rock maze softens the impact of the "schizo scene" where Smeagol banishes Gollum. That was such an impressive scene (especially the first time), and the added scene sort of previews it.




In a way, if I had only watched teh EE. Having seen the Theatrical version I already knew it, so having more of it earlier didn't detract from it for me.
Now, watching the actual actor do the scene in the extra's DVD... that was fun


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## Piratecat (Nov 24, 2003)

Have you guys found the Easter Egg? On the first disk, go to the Chapter Menu. Pick the last two scenes, then cursor past both of them. You'll see a gold ring light up on the bottom of the screen. Hit enter.

It's SO worth it!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 24, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Have you guys found the Easter Egg? On the first disk, go to the Chapter Menu. Pick the last two scenes, then cursor past both of them. You'll see a gold ring light up on the bottom of the screen. Hit enter.
> 
> It's SO worth it!



 Yeah! That was great. Have you found any others? I know Fellowship has two Easter Eggs...but I've only found that one on Two Towers.

Oh, and I have to say...out of all the extended scenes, the Boromir/Faramir/Denethor stuff in Osgiliath is the BEST. Anyone else notice Minas Tirith in the background shots? I don't remember that in the theatrical version...


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## Chauzu (Nov 24, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Anyone else notice Minas Tirith in the background shots? I don't remember that in the theatrical version...




Yes, so did I. Then I did the commentary, and PJ said they took it out of the theatrical release because people got confused, thinking Minas Tirith was Heml's Deep.


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## TiQuinn (Nov 24, 2003)

Just watched the extended edition this weekend, and it was just awesome!

I loved the additions to Faramir's character.  The background with him, Boromir, and Denethor at Osgiliath were fantastic, and I wish they had included them in the original version.  I told so much more, and gave me a reason to like Faramir, and understand his conflict.  I agree now that having Faramir just blow off the ring would cut the throat of the movie.  Why would a ring so powerful that it can tempt Gandalf and Galadriel suddenly be unable to tempt an honorable man like Faramir?  Great additions!

I also liked the extended scenes with Aragorn and Eowyn.  Not only did it give a lot more background on Aragorn, but it also expanded Eowyn's role to the point that her sudden crush on Aragorn doesn't seem such a contrivance anymore.  Good work!

I didn't think the Isengard dam scene was bad at all.  Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but the scene looked great to me.

A couple of nits to pick and this just pertains to the movie in general (either version):

Legolas leaping on the horse...good.  Noticeable CGI, but you have to look for it.  And it was cool.  Legolas surfing down the stairs with heroic music rising in the background....bad.  So bad.  Probably seemed a good idea at the time.

Too many speeches.  Too much "We need to do this because it affects all of us!"  The slow build to the battle at Helm's Deep, complete with slow motion shots of kids getting ready for war.  

"Ride out and meet them."  

"Frodo wouldn't have gotten far if it weren't for Sam."  

"Because there's still some good in this world!" (Sad little Gollum looks down).

Ick.  Ack.  Yuck.  I think Jackson was going for too many forced "moments" in The Two Towers, to the point that it weighed on the movie.

And if Pippin hadn't figure out by now why fighting Sauron was necessary....I mean, c'mon.  Silly, silly, silly and all so Merry could have a dramatic moment.  Blech.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 24, 2003)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Too many speeches.  Too much "We need to do this because it affects all of us!"  The slow build to the battle at Helm's Deep, complete with slow motion shots of kids getting ready for war.




PJ would probably like this comment.  He was very much trying for the _Zulu_ effect, where the movie is as much about the build up to the battle as the battle itself.

I do think the additional scenes help, and after watching some of the otehr commentary I understand why they made some of the changes they did -- particularly the Faramir personality bit (though I still think they could have achieved their intent through a couple of clever flashbacks, rather than dragging Frodo to Osgiliath, but whatever).

The one that still irks me is the Aragorn disappearance scene.  Their explanation: "well, we considered cutting it, but if we did, then the whole warg scene would have been pointless" -- I thought the warg scene, as cool as it was, was a bit too gratuitous anyway and didn't belong.  Ah, well.  I do like the EE better overall.

I'm interested to find out what the RotK changes will be, knowing that they've cut the Saruman death scene and a bunch (not sure how much) of the Housess of Healing material.


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## kengar (Nov 24, 2003)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Just watched the extended edition this weekend, and it was just awesome!
> 
> I loved the additions to Faramir's character.  The background with him, Boromir, and Denethor at Osgiliath were fantastic, and I wish they had included them in the original version.  I told so much more, and gave me a reason to like Faramir, and understand his conflict.  I agree now that having Faramir just blow off the ring would cut the throat of the movie.  Why would a ring so powerful that it can tempt Gandalf and Galadriel suddenly be unable to tempt an honorable man like Faramir?  Great additions!
> 
> ...




I watched it this weekend as well and agree with most of your comments.

Absolutely loved how the Faramir/Boromir/Denethor scene helped justify Faramir's character more.

The Legolas-horse jump. In the appendices, they talk about how they'd worked on an actual move for Orlando to try. Come time to shoot the scene, he had a cracked rib from a fall and couldn't do it, so they went CGI. The WORST special effect in the movie -either version- IMO. Think about this while watching it: Legolas is standing on the horse's right, facing the animal. He grabs the harnass with his right hand and swings IN FRONT OF THE GALLOPING HORSE onto its back from the OPPOSITE side. This means elf-boy has got to wrench himself around FROM A DEAD STANDSTILL to the far side of the horse; basically using just his wrist. He would have bounced against the right flank of the horse like a saddlebag. It would have looked more realistic and less obviously CGI to simply have him mount from the side he was already on.

I didn't find the "talky bits" bad. A lot of it was needed to cover exposition in the book that isn't in the dialog. The speech Sam says at Osgiliath is adapted from scenes in the books and Frodo's acknowledgement of Sam's role in the quest seemed fitting given the level to which Frodo comes to depend upon Sam before the end. 

FWIW, Pippin's character is a bit ignorant of the larger issues, but he did come across as somewhat naive.


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## TiQuinn (Nov 24, 2003)

kengar said:
			
		

> I didn't find the "talky bits" bad. A lot of it was needed to cover exposition in the book that isn't in the dialog. The speech Sam says at Osgiliath is adapted from scenes in the books and Frodo's acknowledgement of Sam's role in the quest seemed fitting given the level to which Frodo comes to depend upon Sam before the end.




Well, hopefully now that it's out of the way and done with, they won't have to talk too much about "why we fight" in Return of the King.  And it will soon be pretty evident to everyone who doesn't know what's going to happen in RotK how important Sam was.  I just wish there was a little bit more "show, not tell" on that score in The Two Towers.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 24, 2003)

Well the movie went from a "Well I guess it's better than most of the other trash coming out of Hollywood..." to a pretty good movie with the additional scenes.   Faramir still doesn't have the character he has in the book, but I suppose the additional scenes help, and after watching the appendix I understand why they changed him.  Thank the lord that the initial idea of having Arwyn at Helm's Deep was shot down.  I would have walked out of the theater if that had happened.  I still don't like the elves at Helm's Deep though, and why would Elrond have something to do with elves from Galadriel's realm going there?  Those weren't elves from Rivendell.  

So far I rate the films on a *-***** scale like so. 

FoTR - ****1/2
FoTR:EE - *****

TT - **1/2
TT:EE - ****

I hope I get over the chopping up of the Return of the King.  I get the feeling that it's not going to be very close to the book at all.   I'm considering waiting for the EE before even watching it.


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## Wormwood (Nov 24, 2003)

The Treebeard scenes were easily my favorite additions. Wonderful stuff.


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## KnowTheToe (Nov 24, 2003)

I loved the additions, they really take the movies to the next level.


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## The Serge (Nov 24, 2003)

Pants said:
			
		

> It's not mentioned in the movies, but Boromir was also having dreams of Isildur's Bane.  I *Think* that was one of the reasons for going to Imladris.



Actually, it is mentioned in the movie.  In the Extended Edition of _Fellowship of the Ring_, Boromir mentions Isildur's Bane upon seeing the Ring on the pedestal and recounts his dream as he almost hypnotically walks toward it.  Before he can take it, Gandalf jumps up and speaks the Chant of the Ring in Black Speech.  One of the best scenes in the whole extended edition of FotR.


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## Shadowdancer (Nov 25, 2003)

kengar said:
			
		

> The Legolas-horse jump. In the appendices, they talk about how they'd worked on an actual move for Orlando to try. Come time to shoot the scene, he had a cracked rib from a fall and couldn't do it, so they went CGI. The WORST special effect in the movie -either version- IMO. Think about this while watching it: Legolas is standing on the horse's right, facing the animal. He grabs the harnass with his right hand and swings IN FRONT OF THE GALLOPING HORSE onto its back from the OPPOSITE side. This means elf-boy has got to wrench himself around FROM A DEAD STANDSTILL to the far side of the horse; basically using just his wrist. He would have bounced against the right flank of the horse like a saddlebag. It would have looked more realistic and less obviously CGI to simply have him mount from the side he was already on.



I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who feels that way. The first time I saw the horse-mounting in the theater, I winced it looked so bad. Every time I've seen it since, I wince again. It is just horrible. After all the excellent work done in other places, to have them actually put that crappy effect in the movie -- what were they thinking?

I think the reason the Arwen flashback stuff seems shorter, or at least less annoying, is that it comes at a different point in the movie in the extended version, and makes more sense coming at the point where it does. I'm going to have to go back and watch both versions again to compare them more closely.

And I'd take Miranda Otto over Liv Tyler any day.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 25, 2003)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Ick.  Ack.  Yuck.  I think Jackson was going for too many forced "moments" in The Two Towers, to the point that it weighed on the movie.



That's how I felt with parts of Fellowship. In the theater they're not bad, but in teh DVD I just FFed. 



> And if Pippin hadn't figure out by now why fighting Sauron was necessary....I mean, c'mon.  Silly, silly, silly and all so Merry could have a dramatic moment.  Blech.



Hey, leave the little pot head alone. He has no long term memory!


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## WanderingMonster (Nov 25, 2003)

Shadowdancer said:
			
		

> I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who feels that way. The first time I saw the horse-mounting in the theater, I winced it looked so bad.



You need to be more selective about the theaters you go to.  At least make sure the mares are segregated from the stallions.



> And I'd take Miranda Otto over Liv Tyler any day.



After TT, I's have to say that statement summarizes many of my recent fantasies.


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## The Fool (Nov 25, 2003)

*Yes Baby!*



			
				Shadowdancer said:
			
		

> And I'd take Miranda Otto over Liv Tyler any day.




I swooooooon over Ms Otto every time i watch her   

All the Eowyn stuff is wonderful, cant wait for ROTK!


The Fool


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## kengar (Nov 25, 2003)

Shadowdancer said:
			
		

> I think the reason the Arwen flashback stuff seems shorter, or at least less annoying, is that it comes at a different point in the movie in the extended version, and makes more sense coming at the point where it does. I'm going to have to go back and watch both versions again to compare them more closely.
> 
> And I'd take Miranda Otto over Liv Tyler any day.




I liked that some of the flashback stuff with Arwen came with Aragorn just sitting and pondering. IIRC, that was after the "stew" scene, wasn't it? It made sense that he was thinking of Arwen after that exhange with Eowyn. It helped to build the idea of Eowyn starting to fall for Aragorn and I liked the concept of him thinking that -if Arwen were gone to the West- maybe life with Eowyn wouldn't be a bad thing.

The Arwen stuff was less jarring when it wasn't piled on top of the goofy river scene, IMO.

Miranda v. Liv? Wow, that's a toughie. I think I'd go with Miranda, but I would have to date them both a few times to really be able to decide.  (I sure hope my wife doesn't read this post!  )


PS- I'm glad they touched on the fact that Aragorn is in his eighties. Though that doesn't change the fact that Arwen is a complete cradle-robber (she's 1600-ish.    )

PPS- Chime in here, ladies. If guys are pondering Liv v. Miranda, I guess the equivalent in the male cast is Viggo v. Orlando. I know my wife is firmly in the Viggo camp, but I saw plenty of she-folk in the theater during TTT shrieking  like bobby-soxers over Orlando.


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## Storm Raven (Nov 25, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> The one that still irks me is the Aragorn disappearance scene.  Their explanation: "well, we considered cutting it, but if we did, then the whole warg scene would have been pointless"




Even _with_ the Aragorn disappearance scene, the warg scene was pointless. Both should have been cut.


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## kengar (Nov 25, 2003)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Even _with_ the Aragorn disappearance scene, the warg scene was pointless. Both should have been cut.




The warg scene was fun, a bit mindless, but fun. I didn't really mind that it wasn't in the books. Aragorn dropping into the river was to help mix up the pacing a bit and to further develop Eowyn's feelings for him. 

In the book, Theoden is riding for the border to bolster the defenses. He meets some men retreating fromt he onslaught of the orcs and they realize they have to regroup at Helm's Deep. Aragorn seeing the Uruks' approaching as he rides to catch up to his friends works well enough for this purpose, I suppose.

I didn't like the scene overall, but I if it HAD to be there, just have him fall into the river, then show him wash up onto the bank to be found by Brego. Just skip all the Arwen stuff, including the kiss.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 25, 2003)

The Legolas mounting the horse scene nearly blew the roof off the theater I was in when I saw it at the theater.  Everyone just went nuts at that moment, clapping and cheering.   I liked it.  If I can accept that an immortal elf is so graceful that he walks on TOP of snow I can accept him being able to do that.  Now the sledding down the steps thing is another story....


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## TiQuinn (Nov 25, 2003)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Even _with_ the Aragorn disappearance scene, the warg scene was pointless. Both should have been cut.




I can understand why the scene was included.  Not much was happening at that point in the movie, and it needed a little bit of a kick.  Plus it also allows Aragorn to leave the main group for a little while and be able to come back with reports of Saruman's army.


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## kengar (Nov 25, 2003)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> The Legolas mounting the horse scene nearly blew the roof off the theater I was in when I saw it at the theater.  Everyone just went nuts at that moment, clapping and cheering.   I liked it.  If I can accept that an immortal elf is so graceful that he walks on TOP of snow I can accept him being able to do that.  Now the sledding down the steps thing is another story....




It wasn't that Legolas could jump on a galloping horse that bugged me, there are circus performers, etc. that can do that in real life. It was that he defied physics by swinging all the way around the horse while dangling from the harnass. Just have him mount the side of the horse he was already on and I would have been shouting "WHOA! Cool!" like everyone else.


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## billd91 (Nov 25, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I do think the additional scenes help, and after watching some of the otehr commentary I understand why they made some of the changes they did -- particularly the Faramir personality bit (though I still think they could have achieved their intent through a couple of clever flashbacks, rather than dragging Frodo to Osgiliath, but whatever).




I agree here. I still think the Osgiliath scene was an unnecessary complication to the film-making. Though, now that we've got a good flashback of Gondor re-taking Osgiliath, it meant they could use the scenery a second time and it's a little more excusable, in my opinion. 

I still think they could have dealt with Faramir's handling of the ring without going anywhere, maybe with another flashback of Denethor alluding to Faramir thinking more like a wizard or elf than the way his son should think. That clue would have put him more in line with Gandalf and Galadriel and how they resist the lure of the ring. Add some mental flashes as he reaches for the ring on the chain at Frodo's neck of Boromir's funeral boat, Denethor's voice disparaging his 'quality', and you could still have a good scene.

Then, I think they could have ended the story with the hobbits and gollum making it to the King at the Crossroads and the blackening out of the sky from Mordor. Think of how dramatic the ending might have been if it went like that. Whoo!


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## Shadowdancer (Nov 25, 2003)

If you look at the Map of Middle-Earth in the TTT EE appendices, the one that shows the paths the different characters take, taking Frodo to Osgiliath wasn't that big of a deal. Frodo, Sam and Gollum were going that direction anyway -- both Osgiliath and Shelob's lair are south of where Faramir and his rangers capture the party. Osgiliath is just a little further to the west.

I think PJ did that to help the intertwined stores synch up. Since Shelob's lair was being held until RotK, he had to slow Frodo's party down from reaching it too quickly in relation to when the other events in the movie were happening.

Yes, there probably are other ways this could be accomplished, but the method PJ chose tied in better with his changes for Faramir, and that character's attempts to please his father. It's all a compromise to try to make the overall story arc flow better, and I think it works just fine.


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## Welverin (Nov 26, 2003)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> The Legolas mounting the horse scene nearly blew the roof off the theater I was in when I saw it at the theater.  Everyone just went nuts at that moment, clapping and cheering.   I liked it.  If I can accept that an immortal elf is so graceful that he walks on TOP of snow I can accept him being able to do that.  Now the sledding down the steps thing is another story....




All of those things just make it even more funny to see him stumble running over some rocks.


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## Kastil (Nov 26, 2003)

kengar said:
			
		

> It wasn't that Legolas could jump on a galloping horse that bugged me, there are circus performers, etc. that can do that in real life. It was that he defied physics by swinging all the way around the horse while dangling from the harnass. Just have him mount the side of the horse he was already on and I would have been shouting "WHOA! Cool!" like everyone else.



Here's a better question......he swung up and landed in back of Gimli but the next time you see these two 'love birds', Legolas is in front.  How'd he do that? Hmm? HMM?

Oh and it's Viggo all the way baby!  ::glances around nervously for husband::


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## Piratecat (Nov 26, 2003)

Kastil said:
			
		

> Here's a better question......he swung up and landed in back of Gimli but the next time you see these two 'love birds', Legolas is in front.  How'd he do that? Hmm? HMM?




C'mon, Kastil. I am SO not going to say the obvious dwarf vs elf joke here. I'm not. Nope, uh-uh, no friggin' way.

But I _am_ thinking it.


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## Assenpfeffer (Nov 26, 2003)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> The Legolas mounting the horse scene nearly blew the roof off the theater I was in when I saw it at the theater.  Everyone just went nuts at that moment, clapping and cheering.   I liked it.  If I can accept that an immortal elf is so graceful that he walks on TOP of snow I can accept him being able to do that.  Now the sledding down the steps thing is another story....




Lots of people seemed to think it was really cool.  Me, I thought it was kind of dopey-looking, pretty much for the reason kengar says.  Just like the shield-surfing scene.

Neither was a movie-busting moment for me, though.


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## Assenpfeffer (Nov 26, 2003)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Even _with_ the Aragorn disappearance scene, the warg scene was pointless. Both should have been cut.




I think there are a couple very valid reasons why the warg scene did need to be in the movie at some point.  First of all, it establishes the wargs for their eventual appearance at the Pelennor Fields.  For the same reason the oliphaunts were in TTT - if they hadn't been, they'd have needed more screen time in RotK or they'd have just been some vague threat.  Establishing their menace with a short scene in which you get a lot of looks at them will let them have more impact in RotK with less screen time.

Plus, from a cinematic perspective, the movie _needs_ to have some kind of action scene in the middle.  Otherwise you'd have had about 2 hours of walking and speeches, and, as well-done as I think Gollum's internal conflict was, I doubt it could have carried two hours of movie by itself.

I do not think that the Aragorn cliff thing was necessary.  Even so, it hardly spoiled the whole movie.  And I do think that the warg battle as a whole is the weakest-looking scene in the whole film, from a special effects perspective.  Jackson admits as much in his commentary.


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## WizarDru (Nov 26, 2003)

I liked it.  A lot.  The extended scenes for Faramir addressed the one complaint I had about the movie, and the rest was just candy.  

 Fellowship is more interesting with the extra scenes, but Two Tower is just plain better.  Both Boromir and Faramir benefitted from all of the extended scenes, and boy if I thought the Steward was a bastard before, I certainly have more reason to mislike him, now.

 Say, did they cut Aragorn's speech on the wall at Helm's Deep, or did I just miss it?


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## Eldorian (Nov 26, 2003)

Well.. Osgiliath will be in the next movie.  So will the easterlings and the guys with the elephants.  So showing em in this movie lets us identify with them sooner.  As for the change in faramir's character, I like it.  Its good story telling.

And Liv vs Miranda?  Well, Liv seems pretty flaky in the interviews I've seen, and Miranda isn't much better, But I'm partial to brunettes, so I guess I'll pick Liv.  This is only a fantasy afterall =D

Eldorian


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 27, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Both Boromir and Faramir benefitted from all of the extended scenes, and boy if I thought the Steward was a bastard before, I certainly have more reason to mislike him, now.




So I wasn't the only one thinking that...I never liked Denethor in the books, and seeing him in TT:EE just makes me dislike him more(which is a good thing, really. It fits perfectly). Though, I do understand WHY he's so unlikable.


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## Chauzu (Nov 27, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> So I wasn't the only one thinking that...I never liked Denethor in the books, and seeing him in TT:EE just makes me dislike him more(which is a good thing, really. It fits perfectly). Though, I do understand WHY he's so unlikable.




Ha! I can't wait for the scene where the looney roasts himself.


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## Bass Puppet (Nov 27, 2003)

What is interesting is that after watching all the behind the scenes footage on Disk 3 and 4, I can understand why some of you comment on certian scenes in the movie. The scenes that most of you criticize are the ones that was dicussed on the DVD as being either rushed or quickly planned (flooding of Isengard, the Warg battle, Legolas shield surfing). None of these take anything away from the movie for me, it just explains why some of you feel the way you do. The extended version confirms that I'm more of a fan of Peter Jacksons version, rather than New Lines.


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## Kastil (Nov 27, 2003)

Here's a tidbit a friend sent me.  Good for those going to the marathon pn Dec 16th.....like me :-D

THINGS TO DO WHILE WATCHING ROTK (Return of the King)

Stand up halfway through the movie and yell loudly, "Wait... where the hell is Harry Potter?"

Block the entrance to the theater while screaming: "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"

After the movie, say "Lucas could have done it better."

At some point during the movie, stand up and shout: "I must go! Middle Earth needs me!" and run and try to jump into the screen.

After bouncing off, return quietly to your seat.

Play a drinking game where you have to take a sip every time someone says: "The Ring." Point and laugh whenever someone dies.

Ask the nearest ring-nut if he thinks Gandalf went to Hogwarts.

Finish off every one of Elrond's lines with "Mr. Anderson."

When Aragorn is crowned king, stand up and at the top of your lungs sing, "And I did it.... MY way...!"

At the end, complain that Gollum was offensive to Ethiopians.

Talk like Gollum all through the movie. At the end, bite off someone's finger and fall down the stairs.

When Shelob appears, pinch the guy in front of you on the back of the neck.

Dress up as old ladies and reenact "The Battle of Helms Deep" Monty Python style.

When Denethor lights the fire, shout "Barbecue!"

Ask people around you who they think is the next "Terminator" sent from
the Middle Earth of the future to assassinate Frodo Baggins.

In TTT when the Ents decide to march to war, stand up and shout "RUN
FOREST, RUN!"

Every time someone kills an Orc, yell: "That's what I'm Tolkien about!"
See how long it takes before you get kicked out of the theatre.

During a wide shot of a battle, inquire, "Where's Waldo?"

Talk loudly about how you heard that there is a single frame of a nude Elf hidden somewhere in the movie. -Start an Orc sing-a-long.

Come to the premiere dressed as Frankenfurter and wander around looking terribly confused.

Remove the top off your drink, then proceed to light the straw on fire and tell people in the seats around you about a great battle that took place in your cup long ago.

When they go in the paths of the dead, wait for tense moment and shout, "I see dead people!"

Imitate what you think a conversation between Gollum, Dobby and Yoda would be like.

Release a jar of daddy-long-legs into the theater during the Shelob scene.

Wonder out loud if Aragorn is going to run for governor of California.

When Sam holds Frodo's hand (or otherwise), start singing, "The
Ambiguously Gay Duo!"

When Shelob comes on, exclaim, "Man! Charlotte's really let herself go!"


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## Shadowdancer (Nov 27, 2003)

That's some funny stuff.


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## Farland (Nov 28, 2003)

That is a good way to get yourself killed-- at least if you are in the same theater as me.


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## Kastil (Nov 28, 2003)

Farland said:
			
		

> That is a good way to get yourself killed-- at least if you are in the same theater as me.



Oh I don't plan on saying any of those things but I might slip out a little line when Theoden reminds Aragorn he's not the king here.

::mutters under breath:: Theoden reminds me I'm still not king.............


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## Chauzu (Nov 28, 2003)

Kastil said:
			
		

> When Sam holds Frodo's hand (or otherwise), start singing, "The
> Ambiguously Gay Duo!"




LOL! I'm going to sooo do that!



...





...





.
...



OK, I won't, but if somebody did that I would laugh my arse off so much... then procede to kill him.


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## jester47 (Nov 30, 2003)

Kastil said:
			
		

> Ask the nearest ring-nut if he thinks Gandalf went to Hogwarts.
> 
> Finish off every one of Elrond's lines with "Mr. Anderson."
> 
> ...




These are the best.

Aaron.


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## MrFilthyIke (Nov 30, 2003)

Kastil said:
			
		

> Stand up halfway through the movie and yell loudly, "Wait... where the hell is Harry Potter?"
> 
> After the movie, say "Lucas could have done it better."
> 
> ...




These are the ones that made me laugh out loud at work, with NO ONE I can explain them to w/o thinking I'm schizo.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 30, 2003)

Everytime I hear Hugo Weaving say a line I add either "Mr. Anderson", or "Humans are a disease" to the end.  I can't help it.


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## nHammer (Nov 30, 2003)

Anybody know a website that list the easter eggs in the extended edition of FotR or those in TT?


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## KenM (Dec 1, 2003)

If you really want to get yourself killed. As you are walking out, start telling everyone how the DnD movie was alot better the the LotR movies.


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## Welverin (Dec 3, 2003)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Everytime I hear Hugo Weaving say a line I add either "Mr. Anderson", or "Humans are a disease" to the end.  I can't help it.




What, no "it's inevitable?"


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## JediSoth (Dec 3, 2003)

Kastil said:
			
		

> Ask the nearest ring-nut if he thinks Gandalf went to Hogwarts.



I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but if you freeze frame in Dumbledore's office in "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" supposedly there is a portrait of Gandalf there. So, that would mean according to the Harry Potter movies, Gandalf was headmaster of Hogwarts and some point, and thus, a student in his youth.

JediSoth


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