# How to kill a blue dragon?



## Orcus Porkus (Nov 13, 2008)

The party is level 4, and encounters a young blue dragon (level 6 solo).
The dragon hovers at 20 squares above the party, peppering it with it's lightning burst (range 20, burst 2, 1d6+4 lightning damage, half on miss.)
How can a party that doesn't have tons of skilled archers kill the beast? There are no powers with range in heroic tier that can knock a target prone or immobilize it. I also couldn't find any magic items.
Melee specialists are absolutely helpless in this situation and better run. Laser clerics with range 5 can stuff their holy symbol and hide. Twin strike rangers: Better find some cover, because you are alone.


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## Baumi (Nov 13, 2008)

It's time to think outside your powers, the advantage of an rpg is the freedom to set every clever (or not so clever) plan in action...

Try to grapple him with ropes and pull him down, find a shelter where he has to be in range to attack you (dungeon), hide and suprise him later when he is on the ground, try to find a spot where you can climb up and jump on his back, try some diplomacy/bluffs or if everything else fails just take out some ranged weapons and do some basic attacks.

I think you and your players will come up with much more plan's if you don't think about what stands on your sheets and think about what a "real" hero would do in such a situation.


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## -Avalon- (Nov 13, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> The party is level 4, and encounters a young blue dragon (level 6 solo).
> The dragon hovers at 20 squares above the party, peppering it with it's lightning burst (range 20, burst 2, 1d6+4 lightning damage, half on miss.)
> How can a party that doesn't have tons of skilled archers kill the beast? There are no powers with range in heroic tier that can knock a target prone or immobilize it. I also couldn't find any magic items.
> Melee specialists are absolutely helpless in this situation and better run. Laser clerics with range 5 can stuff their holy symbol and hide. Twin strike rangers: Better find some cover, because you are alone.




Simplest solution:  Have your wizard set up a wall of fog right above the party to block line of sight to the party, forcing the dragon to come down and play =)


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 13, 2008)

Baumi said:


> Try to grapple him with ropes and pull him down




Some generally good suggestions, but good luck with this one if he is hovering 100ft above you!


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## brehobit (Nov 13, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Some generally good suggestions, but good luck with this one if he is hovering 100ft above you!




Not that it likely helps in this situation, but in 3.5 we had a dragon flying between two towers to attack the party, most of whom were on the ground.  One PC jumped out of a tower and grappled the dragon (making a fair number of outstanding rolls) and brought it down...

Just saying that sometimes out-of-the-box thinking works.  As the DM I never saw it coming...

Mark


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## Chen_93 (Nov 13, 2008)

Only real solution is to somehow block his line of sight/effect to you. A cave, heavy tree cover, buildings etc and get him to come down in melee range.

If none of that is available, telling your DM to stop being an ass works too.


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## -Avalon- (Nov 13, 2008)

Chen_93 said:


> Only real solution is to somehow block his line of sight/effect to you. A cave, heavy tree cover, buildings etc and get him to come down in melee range.
> 
> If none of that is available, telling your DM to stop being an ass works too.





OR 



Midknightsun said:


> Ugh, prolly, but i'd be inclined to use Hong's "throw dice at them" method of player behavioral modification if one of my players tried to pull that.




In this case use that method on your DM, several players pelting their DM with dice at one time tends to do wonders for re-training


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## Imban (Nov 13, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> The party is level 4, and encounters a young blue dragon (level 6 solo).
> The dragon hovers at 20 squares above the party, peppering it with it's lightning burst (range 20, burst 2, 1d6+4 lightning damage, half on miss.)
> How can a party that doesn't have tons of skilled archers kill the beast? There are no powers with range in heroic tier that can knock a target prone or immobilize it. I also couldn't find any magic items.
> Melee specialists are absolutely helpless in this situation and better run. Laser clerics with range 5 can stuff their holy symbol and hide. Twin strike rangers: Better find some cover, because you are alone.




Remember that by CustServ's (kinda dumb) ruling, anything that affects a square has infinite height, so Scorching Burst and Cloud of Daggers can still hit it out of the air. Not sure if there's much in the way of bursts or blasts for Clerics or Fighters at that level, though.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 13, 2008)

Imban said:


> Remember that by CustServ's (kinda dumb) ruling, anything that affects a square has infinite height, so Scorching Burst and Cloud of Daggers can still hit it out of the air. Not sure if there's much in the way of bursts or blasts for Clerics or Fighters at that level, though.




Hey, that would include the Fighter Attack 3 "sweeping blow" since that is a close burst... I wonder how CustServ would describe the fighters attack reaching infinite height, eh?


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## Baumi (Nov 13, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Some generally good suggestions, but good luck with this one if he is hovering 100ft above you!




Just shoot a rope through his wings or tuck it between his scales with a crossbow/bow.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 13, 2008)

-Avalon- said:


> Simplest solution:  Have your wizard set up a wall of fog right above the party to block line of sight to the party, forcing the dragon to come down and play =)




_Wall of Fog_ is level 6, doesn't work here


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 13, 2008)

Forget any rope ideas please. The dragon bites it off as a minor action


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 13, 2008)

Armore of Resistance (5 lightning) would come in handy


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## Piratecat (Nov 13, 2008)

There's a reason that dragons are iconic; I think you're pretty much screwed if you're out in the open. Run, find cover, and fight under better tactical circumstances.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 13, 2008)

His speed on the ground is 8, flying 10.
If they try to hide in the bushes, he can still randomly blast the area non-stop.
They need to split up and hope for the best, trying to follow him and find the lair.


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## -Avalon- (Nov 13, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> _Wall of Fog_ is level 6, doesn't work here





sorry, forgot it was that high... ugh...

Well, how about a high wisdom wizard (dunno if any special orbs out there to assist) throwing a sleep spell at the dragon?  with an 18 wisdom (not likely, but possibly)  Could get a dragon to a 9 save on the going to sleep part hehe...

and if that does not pass the first time, does the "Veteran's" quality go on cloth? if not, hope the wizard can wear leather by now so he can get veteran's quality and spend an action point to regain his sleep and try again...

at a 45% chance of success, and trying twice... should come close to 100%  or close enough it is worth trying...

if it does, the dragon would first take 10d10 damage from falling that far, then take a round worth of people whooping him, or at the very least climbing on and roping him hehe...


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 13, 2008)

-Avalon- said:


> sorry, forgot it was that high... ugh...
> 
> Well, how about a high wisdom wizard (dunno if any special orbs out there to assist) throwing a sleep spell at the dragon?  with an 18 wisdom (not likely, but possibly)  Could get a dragon to a 9 save on the going to sleep part hehe...
> 
> ...




Definitely Sleep is an option. Range 20, burst 2. His will defense is 21, so let's assume it's a +7 Intelligence vs. Will (21). Could work.
Then he is slowed (no problem). Next round, if he fails a save (+5, minus 4 MAX from Orb implement max) he'll fall unconscious and come down. Even after the crash he'll remain unconscious (save ends).

Best bet so far...


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## MrMyth (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm not sure precisely what you are looking for as an answer - in general, some groups might be built with heavy ranged firepower and able to deal with the creature, while others won't be. In that case, they should seek cover to lure it lower - if there is no cover, and the DM goes out of his way to prevent creative solutions (such as letting it bite free of ropes with a _minor _action), then he is clearly just a bad DM, and out to kill the party. 

But if a party does end up in an open field and has to fight him, then they have some options. Assume you only have one or two people suited to the fight - a ranger, maybe a wizard with long range spells. Others can still have some options. A rogue can use a crossbow at long range, or a longbow without proficiency (or with it, if elven). Any Str-based characters, such as Fighters and Warlords, and possibly Paladins and Clerics, can use Javelins at long range. Even a warlock can carry around a longbow and shoot for 20s. 

If all the dragon does is blast them with Lightning Burst, then it is going to be a long, long fight - if they stay spread out so the dragon can only hit one target at a time, they fight is likely to go 40+ rounds. Depending on how well they keep alive their damage-dealers, depending on the dice rolls, I'd say it could go either way - the party has maybe a 50/50 shot of victory. 

The key is, the dragon is doing just as piddling damage as the party. 1d6+4 damage a round? And the characters that will be the biggest threat to him - rangers, wizards, elven rogues - will be the hardest for him to hit... especially with a fighter who keeps marking him. 

A party with a bow ranger, elven rogue, long-range wizard, strength fighter and strength cleric... is almost certain to win, in this environment. 

A party with a halfling rogue, long-range wizard, strength fighter, wisdom cleric and warlock... is probably going to lose. 

A party with a mix will have an even shot at it. 

Now, if the dragon is willing to get close enough to use its breath weapon, the entire scenario changes. Its damage goes up significantly, cutting the party survival time down to 15-20 rounds. On the other hand, that means 1 in every 3 rounds, he has gotten within 10 squares of the party, which opens up many more powers for casters - potentially even ones that can bring him down to the ground where he can be cornered by a fighter. 

Honestly, if the DM has removed all cover and prevented any creative solutions, than the party spreads out, takes out the ranged weapons every character should have bought back in town, and hopes for the best. That's basically all there is to it.


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## frankthedm (Nov 13, 2008)

> MrMyth said:
> 
> 
> > and the DM goes out of his way to prevent creative solutions (such as letting it bite free of ropes with a _minor _action), then he is clearly just a bad DM, and out to kill the party.
> ...


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## Milambus (Nov 13, 2008)

-Avalon- said:


> at a 45% chance of success, and trying twice... should come close to 100%  or close enough it is worth trying...




Math fail.

First cast: 45% of success
Second cast: 55% (chance of failure on first) * 45% = 24.75
Total Success Chance: 69.75%

Thats against a normal creature though, a dragon has +5 on their save throws.

First cast: 25%
Second cast: 75% * 25 = 18.75%
Total: 43.75%

Using Orb Mastering for the first cast makes it only a +1 bonus.

First cast: 40%
Second cast: 60% * 25% (Orb mastery only counts on the first try) = 15%
Total: 55%

Not exactly the best odds, but its something.


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## frankthedm (Nov 13, 2008)

All players need to carry ranged weapons and should have this drilled into them repeatedly. *However*, higher level Solos are _not_ a good tool for this. Level appropriate solos already have defences rigged so that players are challeged to even hit them in the first place. Using higher level solos in this sort of situation do make for bad encounters because even those with the forthought to have ranged weapons, still won't have even a modest chance of hitting.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 13, 2008)

MrMyth said:


> I'm not sure precisely what you are looking for as an answer - in general, some groups might be built with heavy ranged firepower and able to deal with the creature, while others won't be. In that case, they should seek cover to lure it lower - if there is no cover, and the DM goes out of his way to prevent creative solutions (such as letting it bite free of ropes with a _minor _action), then he is clearly just a bad DM, and out to kill the party.
> 
> But if a party does end up in an open field and has to fight him, then they have some options. Assume you only have one or two people suited to the fight - a ranger, maybe a wizard with long range spells. Others can still have some options. A rogue can use a crossbow at long range, or a longbow without proficiency (or with it, if elven). Any Str-based characters, such as Fighters and Warlords, and possibly Paladins and Clerics, can use Javelins at long range. Even a warlock can carry around a longbow and shoot for 20s.
> 
> ...




great post, thanks.

So listen, adventurers: Never leave the house without a rope, a couple of javelins, and that bow you never intended to use.

For the dragon the best tactic is probably:
Save _Frightful Presence _for a situation where he is in close combat and it becomes dangerous.
Instead blast them immediately with the breath weapon from 2 squares away, use an action point, and use _draconic fury_ on the initial victim, then fly away if still having a move action left.
From then on attack with _Lightning Burst_ until Breath Weapon recharges, pick one of the spread out characters, breath him with lightning and if other characters are foolish enough to still be too close get them to, then perhaps spend the 2nd action point, and use _Draconic Fury_ again. And so on.
I would love to test this out...


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## Patlin (Nov 13, 2008)

Piratecat said:


> Run, find cover, and fight under better tactical circumstances.




Yeah, run for a cave or anything with a roof, to limit flying options.  Also provides a great answer to "Hey, DM, why should we go into this obviuosly dangerous dungeon and get ourselves killed?" -- why, because outside you can't even properly engage the flying Dragon!  The dungeon is the only cover around...


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## Shadeus (Nov 13, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> His speed on the ground is 8, flying 10.
> If they try to hide in the bushes, he can still randomly blast the area non-stop.
> They need to split up and hope for the best, trying to follow him and find the lair.




I ran into something similar with a hellfire harpy (that nasty piece of work has a 20 sq aura that did 5 fire each round).  The solution was, I read the rules at the back of the Monster Manual on flying.  I don't have it handy, but if you look at the back on the flying entry, the maximum height that a creature can fly is it's fly speed.  So in this instance, it looks like the maximum height it's supposed to be able to fly is 10 based on it's movement.

At least I think that's the case.  Could someone verify that for me?


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## socratesgonemad (Nov 13, 2008)

Have you thought about having the players do a skill challenge to maneuver the dragon into a confined area?  While it might not be what you're looking for, it could give your party more of a fighting chance.


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## MrMyth (Nov 13, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> > Minor action is utterly reasonable. Same action type a player uses to draw out an object.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MrMyth (Nov 13, 2008)

Shadeus said:


> I ran into something similar with a hellfire harpy (that nasty piece of work has a 20 sq aura that did 5 fire each round). The solution was, I read the rules at the back of the Monster Manual on flying. I don't have it handy, but if you look at the back on the flying entry, the maximum height that a creature can fly is it's fly speed. So in this instance, it looks like the maximum height it's supposed to be able to fly is 10 based on it's movement.
> 
> At least I think that's the case. Could someone verify that for me?




I think that is only if it has the 'altitude limit' notation attached to its fly speed, such as with a Gibbering Abomination or.... well, that actually seems to be the only one in the MM.


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## MrMyth (Nov 13, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> For the dragon the best tactic is probably:
> Save _Frightful Presence _for a situation where he is in close combat and it becomes dangerous.
> Instead blast them immediately with the breath weapon from 2 squares away, use an action point, and use _draconic fury_ on the initial victim, then fly away if still having a move action left.
> From then on attack with _Lightning Burst_ until Breath Weapon recharges, pick one of the spread out characters, breath him with lightning and if other characters are foolish enough to still be too close get them to, then perhaps spend the 2nd action point, and use _Draconic Fury_ again. And so on.
> I would love to test this out...




For the Dragon, actually, figuring out its plans are quite interesting. Its breath weapon is really big damage, and it is unlikely the PCs will be able to spread out far enough to not have multiple targets for the breath. However, that opens up much more retaliation from the PCs. It might be worth it to ping away at the biggest threat, and then bring in the breath weapon to finish him - especially if the dragon is close to bloodied, and thus likely to get another free breath when they retaliate. 

The biggest danger to the dragon is any characters with lightning resistance, who will be able to shrug off almost anything he can throw at them. 

Unfortunately, I did just realize something that makes him much, much worse - Lightning Burst is a Burst 2. That means he can stay _22_ squares off the ground, and fire it at a square 20 squares away, and still hit the PCs standing on the ground at the edge of the burst. This means longbow archers are now at long-range penalties, and Javelins and Magic Missiles can't reach unless a PC can jump into the third square before attacking - which is unlikely. The only way they might do so is by getting on each others shoulders - at which point the dragon has multiple targets for Lightning Burst. 

So the lesson is apparently for everyone to carry around rope, javelins, longbows, and a 10' ladder.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 13, 2008)

MrMyth said:


> So the lesson is apparently for everyone to carry around rope, javelins, longbows, and a 10' ladder.




Tenser's Floating Disk!!!! uh damn, only one feet above the ground.
To me it looks like the blue dragon can't be beaten in the open by heroic tier characters unless he is reckless or suicidal...


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## MrMyth (Nov 13, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> Tenser's Floating Disk!!!! uh damn, only one feet above the ground.
> To me it looks like the blue dragon can't be beaten in the open by heroic tier characters unless he is reckless or suicidal...




I think "can't be" might be too strong to say. As mentioned before, if he is really just sniping from as far away as possible, it will take 40+ rounds to kill the PCs. If they happen to all be carrying longbows or greatbows or whatever, they can plink away at him just as he does at them, and have some chance at victory. Probably not a great one, but not non-existent. And a few specific elements could make a big difference. A single effective greatbow archer with a potion of elecricity resistance could likely solo the dragon in a one-on-one purely sniping contest (and the threat of other PCs on the ground prevents the dragon from joining into melee.)

I think it safe to say that almost any group, even a successful one, is likely to have several characters get knocked out during the course of te fight, and will need to make very effective use of resources to emerge victorious. In a pure sniping contest, it is simply a matter of attrition. The PCs have less hp, but many more ways to trigger healing surges. The dragon does higher consistent damage. Where is the line drawn? Hard to say. Can the dragon afford to come closer to unleash its breath weapon? That will depend on the group. 

So much of this depends on group composition. (And terrain and resources, but even if we dismiss those, the fight will change from one party to the next. Even with a generically 'well-prepared' group, how much difference those preparations make will vary.)


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## LittleFuzzy (Nov 13, 2008)

Sounds to me like a time to break out those Charisma-based skills.  Try an intimidate to taunt it into fighting within reachable ranges *dragons have traditonally been given large and well-deserved egos that characters can try to manipulate* or bluff checks for playing possum   If all else fails, have everyone run.

You're playing a game and if the DM is playing the dragon in a way that makes it completely untouchable, having it pursue you all to the death, and not providing any sort of other out then your table has more serious problems than the dragon.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 13, 2008)

MrMyth said:


> Unfortunately, I did just realize something that makes him much, much worse - Lightning Burst is a Burst 2. That means he can stay _22_ squares off the ground, and fire it at a square 20 squares away, and still hit the PCs standing on the ground at the edge of the burst. This means longbow archers are now at long-range penalties, and Javelins and Magic Missiles can't reach unless a PC can jump into the third square before attacking - which is unlikely. The only way they might do so is by getting on each others shoulders - at which point the dragon has multiple targets for Lightning Burst.




The rules are so unclear on the verticality of AoE's it's ridiculous.  You could just as easily say that a burst is spherical, and therefore if you had a Burst 2 that was 2 squares above the ground, only 1 square that was below the center would actually hit the ground.  So yeah, he could _technically_ use that tactic in that case, but then it would only hit one person.


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## TheNovaLord (Nov 13, 2008)

make this a skill challenege to get past the dragon....

I had a smilair situation where the party needed to get past a purple worm in a crumbling valley (they where level 2 or 3)

made it a skill challenge to break the magic binding the worm to the valley

was very entertaining....

Make it clear the beast is too mighty to fight


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## MrMyth (Nov 13, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> The rules are so unclear on the verticality of AoE's it's ridiculous. You could just as easily say that a burst is spherical, and therefore if you had a Burst 2 that was 2 squares above the ground, only 1 square that was below the center would actually hit the ground. So yeah, he could _technically_ use that tactic in that case, but then it would only hit one person.




Why in the world would the burst be spherical? The vertical grid shouldn't operate any different than a horizontal grid. The rules seem pretty clear on how a Burst works: 

"*Area burst (number) within (number) squares: *To use an area burst power, choose a square within the range indicated by the second number. The power affects targets in that square or within a number of squares equal to the first number."

A Burst 2 would hit the center square, and all squares within 2 of it in all directions - up, down, left and right, and along each and every diagonal. 

Now, if there is some specific area of the rules that gives reason to believe the rules suddenly operate differently in three dimensions rather than two, then I will concede the point. But nothing in the description of the area itself indicates that Bursts and Blasts would be spherical, rather than cubical. (At least on the grid - one can certainly feel free to picture them still as fireballs and such, while translating that into cubes on the battlemap.)


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## Lacyon (Nov 13, 2008)

MrMyth said:


> But nothing in the description of the area itself indicates that Bursts and Blasts would be spherical, rather than cubical.




Spheres and cubes are the same thing under Chebyshev distance.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 13, 2008)

MrMyth said:


> Why in the world would the burst be spherical? The vertical grid shouldn't operate any different than a horizontal grid. The rules seem pretty clear on how a Burst works:
> 
> "*Area burst (number) within (number) squares: *To use an area burst power, choose a square within the range indicated by the second number. The power affects targets in that square or within a number of squares equal to the first number."
> 
> ...




That's my point.  There's also nothing that says that it would be cubical when applied across a vertical distance.  There's also nothing to say that the entire burst takes place in the same height plane.  There's just a complete lack of rules surrounding height and AoE's, so I think it's a little weak to suddenly say "Well, he can fly up 22 squares, then target 10' over the PC's heads and still hit them with the Burst."

Heck, according CS, they're infinite height anyway, so none of this should affect the Wizard or a Fighter using his Burst 1 Powers.


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## Lacyon (Nov 13, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> That's my point. There's also nothing that says that it would be cubical when applied across a vertical distance.




Except the rules quoted above.

Squares 2 squares above the targeted square are "within a number of squares equal to the first number". As are squares 2 up and 2 north. Etc.

This _is_ actually what the rules say, custserv confusion notwithstanding.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 13, 2008)

Lacyon said:


> Except the rules quoted above.
> 
> Squares 2 squares above the targeted square are "within a number of squares equal to the first number". As are squares 2 up and 2 north. Etc.
> 
> This _is_ actually what the rules say, custserv confusion notwithstanding.




The rules and the examples (with diagrams) given in the PHB only focus on a battle grid layout.  They don't specifically mention any vertical aspect.  Yes, you could extrapolate that it goes out in all directions, I'm just saying that there's no guidance on this.  Also, does it make a lot of sense for the Fighter powers to also have a vertical component?  Or take my Dragonborn.  I took Englarged Breath Weapon, which makes it a Close Blast 5.  According to your rules, that would be 5 squares of vertical as well, meaning an effective volume of 125 squares!  Doesn't that seem just a _bit_ overpowered for a *close blast* weapon?

All I'm saying is that in this example you have the dragon on one plane, PC's on another.  As such, I would keep the fight simple and treat all effects as taking place on one plane a they do the other 99.9% of the time that you're playing.


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## MrMyth (Nov 13, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> The rules and the examples (with diagrams) given in the PHB only focus on a battle grid layout. They don't specifically mention any vertical aspect.




They don't specifically mention any vertical aspect. They do specifically mention how the powers work, in terms that function perfectly fine for vertical dimension, without any indication we should suddenly stop following what the rules rather clearly say. And while the diagrims show only horizontal instances, there is nothing in the rules that is similarly restricted. 



> Yes, you could extrapolate that it goes out in all directions, I'm just saying that there's no guidance on this.




Sure, but the way the rules are written does not in any way imply a limitation to a single horizontal plane. Yes, it would be nice for them to have outright discussed it, but your interpretation requires specifically adding in changes to how they describe the rules working. 



> Also, does it make a lot of sense for the Fighter powers to also have a vertical component?




Well... yes. I would certainly say a fighter who is attacking all enemies in a Close Burst 1 - which is to say, swinging his sword at every enemy in reach - would be allowed to attack both an enemy in front of him, as well as an enemy directly over his head. I would, in fact, be quite appalled at a DM who ruled otherwise. 



> Or take my Dragonborn. I took Englarged Breath Weapon, which makes it a Close Blast 5. According to your rules, that would be 5 squares of vertical as well, meaning an effective volume of 125 squares! Doesn't that seem just a _bit_ overpowered for a *close blast* weapon?




Not at all, since I don't expect to fight a bunch of soldiers who suddenly form a human pyramid. There circumstances in which that would be abusable are essentially non-existent. And if there _is_ a bunch of bats, all flying at different heights, but all within a few squares of each other, I would find it extremely underpowered for a DM to start claiming the wizard's fireball can only hit one of them. 



> All I'm saying is that in this example you have the dragon on one plane, PC's on another. As such, I would keep the fight simple and treat all effects as taking place on one plane a they do the other 99.9% of the time that you're playing.




That doesn't make things simple at all - it raises all sorts of questions. In fact, if you are forcing the dragon to only cast his Lightning Burst down the relative plane between himself and a PC, it would mean the attack is reduced to a 1 x 3 square, instead of a 3 x 3 square. That certainly seems more complicated than just running the rules as written. It might make things easier for the PCs, sure, and you are certainly free to add in house rules to that effect in a game you are running - but it seems a needless change to the rules that only really produces more questions and complications.


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## -Avalon- (Nov 13, 2008)

I think that we have already discussed that dragon breath is not a flat plane...


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## Praesul (Nov 13, 2008)

This isn't a solution for the full 20 square height and it comes thanks to the Adventurer's Vault, but once you get the dragon on the ground or within 10 squares of the ground, someone should start using tanglefoot bags on it.  An immobilized creature cannot fly, so it will fall the remaining distance to the ground or it will keep that guy on the ground so your melee folks can get in and get to work.

Just one more possible variable for the larger equation and another reason I would hesitate to say that it's impossible to kill a blue dragon in the heroic tier.

Edit: Actually... I may be wrong on this.  You may need something that will put the dragon into a prone state not just immobilized.  Re-reading the rules for immobilized I have realized that it doesn't technically have an effect on flying creatures, but I would impose it as a DM.  So it would be more of a house-rule or judgment call than by-the-book ruling.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 13, 2008)

I didn't say relative plane.  I meant that it would be a 3x3 Burst 2 grid like normal, just only on the ground level so that the dragon couldn't abuse it to get completely out of range of everything but a Crossbow, Longbow or Greatbow at long range.  (22 squares up would exceed even Magic Missile range)


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## MrMyth (Nov 13, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> I didn't say relative plane. I meant that it would be a 3x3 Burst 3 grid like normal, just only on the ground level so that the dragon couldn't abuse it to get completely out of range of everything but a Crossbow, Longbow or Greatbow at long range. (22 squares up would exceed even Magic Missile range)




Oh, if you are concerned about it from a _balance_ issue I have absolutely no problems with wanting to make a ruling to avoid it being used like this. I just don't think there is any grounding the rules themselves to do so, and your initial posts seemed to be stating that was where your issues were. 

As long as this is being put forward entirely as a House Rule, I can certainly understand the desire for it. (As I mentioned, it changes the exercise from one where an average party has a good change of success to one where they have a low chance of success.)


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## Keenath (Nov 13, 2008)

"Uh.. par_ley_?"

In that sort of situation, you're simply not going to win.  You're fighting on the dragon's terms, in his most favorable environment.

That's the time to pull a Sir Robin and _Run away! Run away!_ or else try to surrender.  You could try to use ranged basic attacks, though; the fairly low damage of Lightning Burst might make that a viable option (at least for the fighter).


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## mellack (Nov 14, 2008)

Praesul said:


> This isn't a solution for the full 20 square height and it comes thanks to the Adventurer's Vault, but once you get the dragon on the ground or within 10 squares of the ground, someone should start using tanglefoot bags on it. An immobilized creature cannot fly, so it will fall the remaining distance to the ground or it will keep that guy on the ground so your melee folks can get in and get to work.





Where does it say that an immobilized dragon will fall to the ground?  Is this a power of the Tanglefoot bag specifically?


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## Praesul (Nov 14, 2008)

mellack said:


> Where does it say that an immobilized dragon will fall to the ground?  Is this a power of the Tanglefoot bag specifically?




Read my full post, I already addressed my mistake.  I was confusing the effect of the "Immobilized" condition with the "Prone" condition in reference to the impact on flying creatures.  So no, it's not a specific effect of the tanglefoot bag it was my misremembering the rules.

It does, however, shed light on a valid tactic.  Trying to knock the dragon prone at range will bring him slowly down towards the ground.  Combine that with the tanglefoot bag, which prevents him from flying up but does not prevent forced movement, and you'll get the dragon within range of melee fighters.  Now we just need to find something that knocks a foe prone from 20 squares.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 14, 2008)

mellack said:


> Where does it say that an immobilized dragon will fall to the ground?  Is this a power of the Tanglefoot bag specifically?




I don't have the MM in front of me, so I can't read up on the Blue Dragon specifically...  However, if a creature doesn't have the hover power, then it needs to be able to move (and move a certain distance each round) in order to stay aloft.  So if a Blue Dragon doesn't have hover, then anything that immobilizes (and possibly even slows) will bring him down.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 14, 2008)

The dragon does have the hover power.
Check this out (from Dragon):


> *Wizard Attack 1*
> 
> *Phantom Chasm*
> 
> ...




Is there a rule that specifically deals with flying creatures that are immobilized? In my opinion they fall like a rock unless they are magically flying. And a dragon flies with his wings.


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## Gort (Nov 14, 2008)

You could run for cover somewhere. Then he'd have to come to you to fight.


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## -Avalon- (Nov 14, 2008)

After several hours of research, and debating over this issue, I have arrived at a sure-fire solution that requires a tiny bit of alchemy, some thievery and subterfuge, and a stout fighter type for backup in case things get hairy...

Have your alchemist mix drinks for your dm, until he passes out... find his monster manual and hide it!  If he uses printed sheets for his monsters, then find them and hide them as well... replace these with versions designed and forged by the players.

If the DM gets mean, you have the fighter buddy standing back up 

Otherwise, I do think either sleep or that chasm spell will be your best solution.  I applaud all of you for coming up with "creative" run and hide type solutions... but somehow the fact that the DM threw a 6th lvl dragon against the 4th lvl party in a wide open area... kinda makes me believe he will not allow most of those, I would rather not chance those as my answer, and stick more straight to the rules...

Good luck in any case, let us know how it goes.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 14, 2008)

-Avalon- said:


> Otherwise, I do think either sleep or that chasm spell will be your best solution.  I applaud all of you for coming up with "creative" run and hide type solutions... but somehow the fact that the DM threw a 6th lvl dragon against the 4th lvl party in a wide open area... kinda makes me believe he will not allow most of those, I would rather not chance those as my answer, and stick more straight to the rules...




Actually this encounter comes from a DM collective group in NYC where we experiment with stuff.

One of our members, Nicolas, came up with this strategy:


> - The "silver bullet" power to have in this situation is probably the Lvl. 1 Wizard Illusion Daily Phantom Chasm -- it's a ranged 20 auto-crash on a Flying creature -- a hit Immobilizes AND knocks prone on a hit, but it still Immobilizes on a miss. So any flying creature within the area of effect is guaranteed to fall to the ground for at least 1 turn. And that fall from 10+ squares in the air is going to cause a fair amount of damage, all by itself. . .
> 
> - For the Strength defenders and strikers, Skewering Weapon (Lvl 3, +1) can Immobilize on a hit as a Daily. Can be applied to a spear, so Javelins and Tratnyrs count. The Eladrin Ranger I have as one of my PCs actually currently has a Skewering Tratnyr. Nice thing about this is, since you choose to use the Daily *after* you hit, you don't waste it on a miss.
> 
> ...


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## Herschel (Nov 14, 2008)

Lacyon said:


> Except the rules quoted above.
> 
> Squares 2 squares above the targeted square are "within a number of squares equal to the first number". As are squares 2 up and 2 north. Etc.
> 
> This _is_ actually what the rules say, custserv confusion notwithstanding.




Then why is it a Fireball instead of a Firecube? A Flaming Sphere instead of a Flaming Box? A Mushroom Cloud instead of a Carnival Maul Cloud? 

Just sayin', when things go *boom* they explode spherically, not cubically.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 14, 2008)

While I can see that some of those strategies can work, one of the problems is that you're expecting a lot of situational factors to come together.  The main problem I see is just that this encounter is one that most PC groups would be woefully unequipped to deal with at something like level 6.  

I would like to think that a DM running this encounter would try to be nice to his players have the Dragon either come lower, or occasionally come down to the ground for some close attacks.  Applying tactics like that will at least give the PC's a chance to do some damage.  

Otherwise, you're either relying solely on Magic Missile and the archers, or expecting that they will have a lot of situational weaponry/powers to deal with a creature of exactly _this type._


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 14, 2008)

Anyone trying to use 'phantom chasm' to affect a flying creature in my campaign will find me laughing at them. It's flying, so it isn't worried about an imaginary chasm opening up 100ft below them on the ground.

I guess some people will say 'a spell is a spell, and it has the effects it has regardless - tweak the flavour to fit'. I'm old-school however. I like to see a spell which does something and then DM and players use common sense to apply it to various situations.

just sayin'


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 14, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Anyone trying to use 'phantom chasm' to affect a flying creature in my campaign will find me laughing at them. It's flying, so it isn't worried about an imaginary chasm opening up 100ft below them on the ground.
> 
> I guess some people will say 'a spell is a spell, and it has the effects it has regardless - tweak the flavour to fit'. I'm old-school however. I like to see a spell which does something and then DM and players use common sense to apply it to various situations.
> 
> just sayin'




I agree.
The monster is a level 6 solo, so it's appropriate for a level 4 party.


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## Praesul (Nov 14, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Anyone trying to use 'phantom chasm' to affect a flying creature in my campaign will find me laughing at them. It's flying, so it isn't worried about an imaginary chasm opening up 100ft below them on the ground.
> 
> I guess some people will say 'a spell is a spell, and it has the effects it has regardless - tweak the flavour to fit'. I'm old-school however. I like to see a spell which does something and then DM and players use common sense to apply it to various situations.
> 
> just sayin'




Wow... I don't think I'd be playing long in your group then.  That's rather harsh.


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## -Avalon- (Nov 14, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Anyone trying to use 'phantom chasm' to affect a flying creature in my campaign will find me laughing at them. It's flying, so it isn't worried about an imaginary chasm opening up 100ft below them on the ground.
> 
> I guess some people will say 'a spell is a spell, and it has the effects it has regardless - tweak the flavour to fit'. I'm old-school however. I like to see a spell which does something and then DM and players use common sense to apply it to various situations.
> 
> just sayin'





That is because Spells, Dragons, Psionic Power, and Realism all go together, right?

"One of these things... is not like the other... One of these things..."


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## cmbarona (Nov 14, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Anyone trying to use 'phantom chasm' to affect a flying creature in my campaign will find me laughing at them. It's flying, so it isn't worried about an imaginary chasm opening up 100ft below them on the ground.
> 
> I guess some people will say 'a spell is a spell, and it has the effects it has regardless - tweak the flavour to fit'. I'm old-school however. I like to see a spell which does something and then DM and players use common sense to apply it to various situations.
> 
> just sayin'




I have to agree with the general sentiment that this is a pretty harsh approach. Remember that saying "yes" is a skill! Why punish a player for choosing and using a power? I think it's fair to ask them to describe the illusion so that it properly affects a flying creature (the sensation of a great weight suddenly being applied to them, for example). Laughing at them for trying to use such a power only serves to satisfy your desire to make a player feel stupid.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 14, 2008)

cmbarona said:


> I have to agree with the general sentiment that this is a pretty harsh approach. Remember that saying "yes" is a skill! Why punish a player for choosing and using a power? I think it's fair to ask them to describe the illusion so that it properly affects a flying creature (the sensation of a great weight suddenly being applied to them, for example). Laughing at them for trying to use such a power only serves to satisfy your desire to make a player feel stupid.




This is especially true with something like _*illusion magic*_.  We're not talking about reflavoring Flaming Sphere to be a ball of cold damage after all...  We're talking about creating an illusion that immobilizes a creature.  Why not give your players a chance to describe the illusion and how they could craft one that would affect a flying enemy?  Or do you really that all illusion should be immutable powers that only create a static illusion regardless of who's casting them?


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## Lord Zardoz (Nov 14, 2008)

It depends on the ranges involved, but I have a few ideas.

1)  There are a number of Ranged At Will attacks.  Wizards with magic Missile can still engage easily.  Warlocks Eldritch blast should work fine.  I think the Cleric may have a ranged at will, but the range is not very impressive.

2)  Some Rogue and Ranger abilities do not care if you are using a melee attack or a ranged attack.  Sneak attack in particular, if you can find some means to gain combat advantage over the dragon.

In general though, if your party lacks a Warlock, an Archery based Ranger, or a Wizard, you quickly run low on viable means of inflicting damage aside from basic attacks with ranged weapons.

3)  Paladins Divine Challenge.  This should at least inflict some damage on the dragon, at the cost of turning your Paladin into the Holy Lightning Rod of Antioch.

END COMMUNICATION


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 15, 2008)

cmbarona said:


> I have to agree with the general sentiment that this is a pretty harsh approach. Remember that saying "yes" is a skill! Why punish a player for choosing and using a power? I think it's fair to ask them to describe the illusion so that it properly affects a flying creature (the sensation of a great weight suddenly being applied to them, for example). Laughing at them for trying to use such a power only serves to satisfy your desire to make a player feel stupid.




I don't see this as harsh at all - any more than if someone in any previous edition of a game said "Hey, can I use this spell that makes imaginary chasms bring down the flying dragon". 

I think there is plenty of room for using spells in an interesting way when the spell is considered for what it is, not just for a handful of game rules that have been associated with a spell name.

Cheers


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## Praesul (Nov 15, 2008)

We're getting a little off-topic here, but I think your approach of interpreting the effect of a power would open up a can of worms if you *really* started looking at a lot of the names of powers in 4e.  I'm just surprised you'd want to step onto that _Greased _slope.

I'm one to adopt the "Say yes" mentality, so I guess we're just in different ballparks.  Thankfully, we don't have the misfortune of ruining the game for one another.


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## Herschel (Nov 15, 2008)

-Avalon- said:


> That is because Spells, Dragons, Psionic Power, and Realism all go together, right?
> 
> "One of these things... is not like the other... One of these things..."





This is maybe the dumbest debate point I see, and it occurs from time to time. 

Why does fantasy=stupid? Why does logic not belong in a game? A dragon is not stupid. A dragon is flying. Why would a chasm bother it? It can fly through mountain ranges at will with hundreds of feet below, fly over a tidal wave, avalanche, volcano and earthquake and you're telling us a 100-foot chasm is going to mentally break it down?

There's a number of things that can be done. Trying to argue an idiotic POTENTIAL rules loophole just shows a lack of creativity and meaningless rules-lawyering.


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 15, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> Check this out (from Dragon):
> <snip>
> Is there a rule that specifically deals with flying creatures that are immobilized? In my opinion they fall like a rock unless they are magically flying. And a dragon flies with his wings.




This is a good example of why you need to be careful when allowing additional content into your game.  As you can see from this thread, it's not easy finding a (core) way to bring down creatures that can fly.  Should you allow the above (per the rules in the power), it will have a potentially enormous impact on your game.

I agree with Plane Sailing's sentiment, but the approach should be to revise the power at the very beginning rather than trying to nerf it at the table.


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## boolean (Nov 15, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> Actually this encounter comes from a DM collective group in NYC where we experiment with stuff.
> 
> One of our members, Nicolas, came up with this strategy:




Unfortunately, most of those don't work. For most flying creatures, if the creature doesn't use a move action to fly at least 2 squares it crashes, so yes, immobilizing the flyer would bring it to the ground. However, this restriction does not apply to creatures with fly (hover). Most dragons, including the level 6 blue, can hover.


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## IanArgent (Nov 15, 2008)

As far as powers (especially at-will powers) go, mechanics trump the flavor text IMC; with a very important caveat - you still have to come up with flavor text to apply the mechanic. In this case, what illusion can you apply that will cause a flying dragon to be immobilized and prone on a hit, and immobilized on a miss? (Answer: a magical net appears entangling/partially entangling his wings).

If this tells you I'm not terribly happy with Illusory Chasm's dependence on the flavor text, you're right. I would have called it _Illusory Doom_ and reworked the flavor text a bit. (Or changed the Target block to specifically say it only worked on non-flying/non-swimming creatures).


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## MadLordOfMilk (Nov 15, 2008)

IanArgent said:


> (Answer: a magical net appears entangling/partially entangling his wings).



I'd say this is probably one of the best ways to reflavor it IMO. It accomplishes the same goal - that is, the target thinks "ooohhhh @#$% I'm gonna fall to my death" - and isn't anything so crazy it's unbelievable.


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## FireLance (Nov 15, 2008)

I had a very frustrating fight with a young red dragon in the last game session, and I'm seriously considering making all young dragons clumsy flyers when I DM, in order to give them an incentive not to fight while flying. The young black dragon is already a clumsy flyer, and almost all other monsters in the Heroic tier with a fly speed are either clumsy flyers or have only melee attacks. An opponent as iconic as a dragon (especially a _solo_ opponent, like a dragon) should be an opportunity for everyone in the party to shine. It shouldn't have an incentive to adopt tactics that would make characters with good ranged attacks significantly better than characters who are primarily melee-focused. This is particularly true at the Heroic tier, when most parties would not have access to abilities that would allow them to bring the fight to the flying opponent, or cause the flying opponent to come to them.


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## Turtlejay (Nov 16, 2008)

FireLance said:


> I had a very frustrating fight with a young red dragon in the last game session, and I'm seriously considering making all young dragons clumsy flyers when I DM, in order to give them an incentive not to fight while flying. The young black dragon is already a clumsy flyer, and almost all other monsters in the Heroic tier with a fly speed are either clumsy flyers or have only melee attacks. An opponent as iconic as a dragon (especially a _solo_ opponent, like a dragon) should be an opportunity for everyone in the party to shine. It shouldn't have an incentive to adopt tactics that would make characters with good ranged attacks significantly better than characters who are primarily melee-focused. This is particularly true at the Heroic tier, when most parties would not have access to abilities that would allow them to bring the fight to the flying opponent, or cause the flying opponent to come to them.




This.  4e has a pretty player friendly design philosophy, and throwing an impossible fight at your party just because you are god of their world is not fun for anyone but you.

Some posters have mentioned various strategies that would have to have DM fiat to use, such as throwing javelins with ropes attatched or hiding in a cave.  If your DM is doing this to be a jerk, then none of these is going to work.  In fact, your characters should immediately start basting themselves in barbeque sauce since no matter what, a dragon is going to eat them.

Now, if you are fighting a dragon because your DM wants to challenge you, some of these ideas are cool.   I reject all tactics that have some sort of expectation of foreknowledge (ie specific magic items or prepared spells or party makeups), and embrace the more creative suggestions like:

 - Intimidate: Dragons are notoriously prideful creatures and I think attempting to scare one into leaving should be tough.  However, using your bravado to shame/trick a dragon into trying to take a bite out of you should be reasonable.

 - Bluff:  If the player can roleplay or describe a sufficiently clever scenario that is followed up by a good roll, the dragon could be tricked into descending.

 - Ranged attacks:  Any character (except small ones) can use any weapon, they just don't get to apply the proficiency bonus to the roll.  Having your characters all carry ranged weapons is a good idea anyways, but situations like this highlight it.

 - Run and hide:  The DM should allow a Nature or Dungeoneering roll to attempt to locate a good piece of shelter.  At least good enough that the dragon has to descend to get line of sight for his attacks.

 - Die:  And roll up some twinky characters to teach your DM a lesson.

I guess that were I to run a situation like this the first bit might play out like a skill challenge, with successes giving the players progessively greater advantages, and failures costing surges.  After a bit of theis set up the battlemat and get rolling.  If I were a player, I would cry, since my paladin has only handaxes for his ranged weapon, currently.  I think I should fix that asap.

Jay


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## WOLead (Nov 16, 2008)

@Opening Post

There is one way to bring that Dragon down to ground level with a Warlock...at level 5.

Say the young blue dragon flying around 20 squares up raining down Lightning Bursts.  Just hope your party has a Half-Elf Warlock with stats of at least 14 Int and 18 Cha after Racials and has the Pact Bow +1 from Dragon #369 and has Fury of Gibbeth for his level 5 Daily attack power.  Yes, it needs to be that specific.

Just have the Half-elf use his Pact Bow's Daily ability to launch his Dread Star up at the Young Blue Dragon at...[10+2(Level)+2(Power)+2(Cha)+1(Enhance)+2(Proficiency)+1(Prime Shot)]
+20 vs. Ref(21).  Basically on any roll but a natural 1.  Then the dragon takes the 3d10+Int+1 damage and 1d6 WC damage, makes a Acrobatics check against a DC of 15 and falls prone if he fails, and takes 5d10 falling damage as it hits the grounds.  If it succeeded, it has to make that Acrobatics check again at the start of its turn or fall prone.  At +5 vs. DC of 15, it would need a roll of 10 or better twice.  So thats roughly a 70% chance the dragon will hit the ground due the attack.  Though as this effect is a Save Ends and the Solo creature has +5 on Saving Throws, it is very unlikely this effect will last to the next turn.

At first, I was going to say to use Dread Star, but Immobilizing a Hovering Creature doesn't make it fall.  You have to knock it Prone to make it fall as stated in PHB p.277 in the Prone section.

@Plane Sailing
Just a note, using Phantom Chasm on the Young Blue Dragon does work.

::Wizard uses Phantom Chasm::
"The ground far below the dragon splits wide open wasn't a concern for it.  The heavy downdraft that came with it flowing into the chasm though did shock the dragon.  It lost lift and was plummeting down too fast.  It was trying to beat its wings hard enough to give it enough extra lift to right itself but there was no purchase.  Seeing the bottom of the chasm, it braces itself for the humiliating crash for one such as itself and hits.  It didn't hurt as much as expected, so it was just an illusion.  It really shouldn't have panic*WHAM!*  That one hurt about right, the dragon forgot it was actually flying after the panic left."

Phantom Chasm knocks the targets Prone, so it knocks Flying(Hover) creatures out of the air.


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## Rhiarion (Nov 16, 2008)

I tihink some of us agree to disagree, I was going to post exactly what WOLead posted about the spell.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 16, 2008)

Keenath said:


> "Uh.. par_ley_?"
> 
> In that sort of situation, you're simply not going to win.  You're fighting on the dragon's terms, in his most favorable environment.
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Stalker0 (Nov 16, 2008)

I think what this thread shows is that you a dragon's "level" goes way up in the open field, because a party just doesn't have a lot of ranged mojo in most cases.

I would be curious to see a bow ranger vs a dragon in a sniping contest.


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## Arkhail (Nov 16, 2008)

First, he won't be able to use his Lightning Burst from 22 squares. It is a ball of lightning that explodes upon _impact_. He still needs to be within the 20 square range to hit with it. 

Second, his breath weapon has a 10 square range. That's a perfectly reasonable range for a lot of powers. 

Third, any DM who reads the MM and sees;

_"A blue dragon takes to air immediately if it is not already flying. It spends an action point to use frightful presence, and then follows up with its breath weapon. Until it is forced to land, a blue dragon is content to remain airborne and switch between lightning burst and breath weapon attacks. The dragon relies on its draconic fury to make enemies think twice about engaging it in melee."_

then proceeds to hang him in the air at 20 squares up and use nothing but _one single power_ over and over…is an a**hole.


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## equusasinus (Nov 16, 2008)

There is no way that I am allowing a level 1 "instant kill" power for swimming and flying creatures. I am fairly sure that was not the intent of the power designer. You would create aerial terrain (a tornado?) and the "immobilisation" will be the dragon flapping about randomly IN THE SAME SQUARE being buffeted by imaginary crosswinds (or more likely dodging imaginary chasm walls like the Star Wars Return of the Jedi "fly into the death star" corridors scene). It is not going to be hitting the ground hard, but it might lose a square or two of altitude. Otherwise that spell is way broken.

edit: Sleep is daily. Thinking again, it is daily. It might be OK.



Orcus Porkus said:


> Check this out (from Dragon):
> 
> *Wizard Attack 1*
> *Phantom Chasm*
> ...


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## James McMurray (Nov 16, 2008)

It's only dangerous for flying creatures if they're higher than their speed. To be instant kill they'd have to be flying really high. Even flying at 22 (the max reach for Sleep IIRC), they'll only take 11d10 damage. 60 damage is a lot, but it's not even 1/4 of the dragon's hit points.

The dragon in question's speed is 10, so it can fly at a height of ten and land safely even if an effect knocks it prone. Coincidentally, that's the range for the two powers it can snipe with, and a good range for players to reach since even the fighter should have some javelins (or one +1 javelin).

It's never instakill for swimmers, since they don't take falling damage for being knocked prone.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 16, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> The dragon in question's speed is 10, so it can fly at a height of ten and land safely even if an effect knocks it prone. Coincidentally, that's the range for the two powers it can snipe with, and a good range for players to reach since even the fighter should have some javelins (or one +1 javelin).




Yet another reason why it would be much better if the DM kept the dragon in range, rather than going as high as possible to really mess with the party.


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## corncob (Nov 16, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> I don't see this as harsh at all - any more than if someone in any previous edition of a game said "Hey, can I use this spell that makes imaginary chasms bring down the flying dragon".



"I want to make the chasm appear around the dragon and make things look like it's about to run into a wall."


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## equusasinus (Nov 17, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> Yet another reason why it would be much better if the DM kept the dragon in range, rather than going as high as possible to really mess with the party.




This thread was once about combat options for players vs a dragon.
It has now turned into discussions about what type of game people prefer and there is no longer any answer or point.

In some games (I guess games like Dr Procor's) it's expected the players will win, that the DM will only give beatable monsters, and if somehow something goes wrong the DM will fix it so that the players do win even to the point of having intelligent monsters act like idiots or having cheesy random events save them. This is not a criticism. But, not every group plays D&D like that. In some games the players might realise they have accidentally aggroed a level 6 solo and that they WILL die here if they fight it, so they would be trying to escape. And the monster in that case will be using the full extent of its powers the best way it can (subject to roleplaying its personality).

So much depends on what sort of game you play, so can we please get back to discussion of the combat options and not trying to discuss what is good or bad for the DM/players because that will only apply in a limited number of games.

I have a seen a 3.5 edition dragon go down in 5 minutes (the players rush in and hit it) and I have seen the same fight take three game sessions. (Dragon has spells, dragon has higher INT score than the characters i.e. is cleverer than the party, dragon is paranoid and endlessly patient ... play it like an organised crime boss. You can bet in this type of game, this dragon will not be charging the fighter when it could just teleport away to its _other_ lair and drop the roof of this one on the player's heads). Of course the players would survive as they'd be expecting that, and posted a scout outside to see where the beast sneaked off to, if it sneaked off, or if any reinforcements are coming and the invisible/etherial scout will shout "it's attacking the mountain top, GET OUT FAST"... but it's clearly a very different type of game to "charge and swing". A charge and swing party would be dead without ever even seeing the dragon.

So really, can we get back on topic please  Some people *want* their monsters to use all their abilties as best as they can.


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## MoppyDragon (Nov 17, 2008)

equusasinus said:


> snipped




I love you even if you are the classic donkey. You made me remember the good old days and cry, from when we played in uni. Hours long fights against epic dudes who didn't hold back and would kill you - all of you - if you made just one mistake, because the DM ran them like a PC. There was no safety net. Realistic and we loved it, but the kids these days, they just want to win :-(


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 17, 2008)

WOLead said:


> @Plane Sailing
> Just a note, using Phantom Chasm on the Young Blue Dragon does work.




Not in my book! I'm happy to give latitude in allowing a spell to do something which is thematically appropriate for it, but I don't allow someone to effectively redefine a spell. After all, if you allowed that you'd end up with any spell doing anything < / hyperbole >

It is interesting that so many people would allow it. I consider it a poorly thought through and poorly developed spell from Dragon and probably wouldn't allow it anyway.

if there is a spell that creates generic illusions to do something, fine - make an illusion of a net. A spell that creates an illusory chasm though... as a DM I'd not allow it, and all of my players would have the sense to not attempt it (if anyone did, all the other players would laugh at him first).

Cheers


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## Engilbrand (Nov 17, 2008)

Shenanigans. The books say numerous times that you can flavor things any way that you wish. Most things in the books really are just mechanics. Sure, they give you a default flavor and a default setting, but you don't need to use those.
How does Phantom Chasm make sense at all? Why wouldn't most enemies just laugh at it? If they don't start falling, they know that it's fake. The key to the power is that it is an illusion that effects the mind. True, it's not a fear effect, but it does make the target sense something that isn't there.
Plane Sailing, if you want to houserule things to screw over players, that's fine. But don't just laugh at it and insinuate that it's ridiculous and stupid. You wonder why most of use would allow it? It's because we've read the books and subscribe to the ideas of 4th edition. Other than "Say Yes." there's an inherent idea that DMs shouldn't be out to screw players.
Also, if you're going to houserule something like this, I would hope that you would tell your players. Actually, I hope that you tell all of your players all of your houserules for powers. Because I know that if I do something by the rules when I'm playing, and the DM laughs at me and says, "No. That's not the way that it works." I get pissed.
It's no different than telling the Ranger that his arrow didn't hit because there's a lot of wind that you didn't tell him about. Or the Fighter can't hit the monster because it's wearing armor. If that's the case, what's the point of playing?


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 17, 2008)

equusasinus said:


> This thread was once about combat options for players vs a dragon.
> It has now turned into discussions about what type of game people prefer and there is no longer any answer or point.
> 
> Etc....




Actually, we already did a pretty good job of discussing the PC's options.  The reason why we stopped, was because there were no options left.  Anyone without a decent ranged 20 attack would've been left out right off the bat with the way the Dragon was fighting.  Additionally, if we were to use the whole "Burst 2 power should extend the Dragon's range to 22 squares" thing, then it would've gotten even worse.  Magic Missile would no longer reach him, and even some of the ranged weapons wouldn't.  It would be basically be the Archer Ranger (if he didn't go TWF) versus the Dragon, mostly relying on At-Wills because his Encounter and Daily powers will run out in the first few rounds.  And he'll be at long range.

That about covers the combat options.  What's to discuss?  We also discussed running and hiding, but a lot of people felt that this wasn't an option since the DM obviously wasn't really trying to be fair if he has a Dragon flying at 22 sqaures pelting them from out of range.

I mean, if we're going for unfair, why not just do it right and have them fight Orcus?  Scaled down of course...as I'm sure that aura surrounding him will work out lovely when players only have 50 hit points.

The fact is, not all things are really fair to players at low levels.  There are a lot of abilities that they're lacking, they don't have a lot of encounter/daily powers to fall back on, and magic weapons aren't a ton of help since they can only use 1 per day.  Throwing something at them that just *automatically invalidates 4 out of 5 party members* is not something a DM should be doing.  It doesn't mean he can't have danger, it's just that he's being cruel when he's creating a situation where only one character can even fight the level 6 solo.  Heck, even if the Ranger manages to beat him, was it an exciting fight?  Personally, since I'm the party Fighter and couldn't do anything here, I would've just said "Okay, I'm going out for a smoke and to make some phone calls.  Assume I just use Total Defense every round or something.  See ya in like 20 minutes."

Now, the only other option that I see would be to simply play the Dragon such that he occasionally comes lower and engages the players more directly.  This gives them a chance to do something to get him down on the ground where the rest of the players can do something.



> And the monster in that case will be using the full extent of its powers the best way it can (subject to roleplaying its personality).



If it's flying at 22 squares it's not.  It's personality block specifically talks about using it's breath weapon (first target must be within 10 squares) and frightful presense, which is a close burst 5.  So according to the MM, any DM that's only flying at 22 squares and using the lightning burst has already thrown RPing the Dragon out the window.

Now, if you want to talk about a party fighting a Dragon that is dipping down within 5 and 10 squares of the PC's every couple of rounds, we can do that...and that would be useful too, since you could actually involve all the party members in such a fight.  That's not what we've been talking about so far though.


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## Lacyon (Nov 17, 2008)

corncob said:


> "I want to make the chasm appear around the dragon and make things look like it's about to run into a wall."




That's what I'd do, too.


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## MrMyth (Nov 17, 2008)

Engilbrand said:


> Plane Sailing, if you want to houserule things to screw over players, that's fine. But don't just laugh at it and insinuate that it's ridiculous and stupid.




Yeah, this is really the issue. By all means, feel free to disallow it in your home campaign - a DM is free to do whatever they like, and different DMs have different priorities in what works and what doesn't. I might not agree with it, but it isn't my job to run your table!

But... in every mention of this, you haven't just said you wouldn't allow it, you've gone out of your way to explain how it would be laughed at and mocked - implying you are doing the same to all the others in this thread supporting it. 

It might not be a direct insult, but I'd say it is coming pretty close - and probably why people are responding so directly, with such thorough disagreement.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 17, 2008)

MrMyth said:


> But... in every mention of this, you haven't just said you wouldn't allow it, you've gone out of your way to explain how it would be laughed at and mocked - implying you are doing the same to all the others in this thread supporting it.




Definitely not my intention to mock those who think it is OK - I do apologise to anyone who has taken it that way.

However, I am surprised at how far some people are prepared to take the 'say yes' principle. I'm a very 'say yes' kind of guy except when I think people are attempting to bend the rules to their advantage. In earlier editions it was widely considered 'munchkin' behaviour.

In 3e there are numerous places where people are told they can theme their spells as they see fit (e.g. making magic missiles appear like flaming skulls - which made it strange that one supplement introduced spell theming feats, but that is by the by).

To me, it seems that there is a difference between theming a power so it looks somewhat different and fit a personal style, to allowing a power to appear dramatically different and have an effect on creatures which logically does not appear to be within the remit of that power.

I'm seeing a couple of very different styles emerging in the way I see people report playing of 4e. Some people (like me) seem to play it in a more (for the sake of a word) traditional form. Others seem to play it in a more free-form manner. I don't think either is right or wrong per se. However, some people will prefer one form and other people will prefer the other (and some don't mind which they play).

Does that make my position more transparent?

Cheers


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 17, 2008)

I think you're just coming from a different place when reading that power.  A lot of the people are just seeing a power that knocks someone prone though the use of an illusion, and therefore don't see the illusion presented in the flavor text as being the only way this could happen.  It also doesn't make any mention of flying enemies being immune.

You see it as a power that opens a chasm beneath them, which wouldn't work on a flying enemy.  The ones who disagree with are simply of the mind that the flavor doesn't dictate what the power does, the mechanics do.  And the mechanics say it knocks creatures prone.


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## Jhaelen (Nov 17, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> It is interesting that so many people would allow it.



Yep. I'm pretty baffled by some of the reactions here.


Plane Sailing said:


> I consider it a poorly thought through and poorly developed spell from Dragon and probably wouldn't allow it anyway.



I agree. Obviously the designer didn't think this one through. Actually, I'm a bit wary about all the material from Dragon. I don't think it's seen enough playtesting.


Plane Sailing said:


> if there is a spell that creates generic illusions to do something, fine - make an illusion of a net. A spell that creates an illusory chasm though... as a DM I'd not allow it, and all of my players would have the sense to not attempt it (if anyone did, all the other players would laugh at him first).



...and this is exactly what would happen in my group.

I really like 4E and think it is mostly an improvement on 3E but 'saying yes' to everything, regardless how silly is about as stupid as trying to judge every situation purely by RAW. I mean, how many Pun-Puns did you have in your games?!


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## Praesul (Nov 17, 2008)

It's a difference of approaching the mechanics of a spell.  Plane Sailing takes the "look at the flavor text then the rules" method while some others of us take the "mechanics first, flavor second" approach.

The bottom line is that Plane Sailing is putting additional reasoning into his interpretation of the power.  Interpretation which is not deemed necessary by the books but is necessary in his opinion.  I think adding that additional step is *really* dangerous though when you start trying to think logically about how fantasy spells, powers, and items work.

I really don't think this is a question of the "say yes" mentality.  Looking at this spell usage in reference to the rules there's no question that it would function on flying creatures.  You have simply decided that, in your mind, that's not how it's supposed to work so you've made a DM caveat decision.  I do think you made a rather mocking tone towards people who didn't see the "brilliance of your wisdom" and instead decided to make a more PC friendly adjustment. That's unfair and uncalled for.

Equusasinus, To imply that allowing this one spell to affect flying creatures means we're all playing Carebare D&D is also rather ridiculous.  Get off your high horses please, it's rather embarrassing especially coming from moderation.


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## DracoSuave (Nov 18, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> Snipped for brevity.




How to defeat that monster:  Head for nearest cover.  Run if you must.  Force it into situations where its flying is no advantage.  From cover and concealment, have ranged attacker take potshots.  Your fighters and paladins should have them, it's called a bow.  Every character should have a ranged attack, even if it's 'suboptimal.'  Having NO ranged attack is truly suboptimal, because of situations like this. Force the dragon to fight on -your- terms.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 18, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> How to defeat that monster:  Head for nearest cover.  Run if you must.  Force it into situations where its flying is no advantage.  From cover and concealment, have ranged attacker take potshots.  Your fighters and paladins should have them, it's called a bow.  Every character should have a ranged attack, even if it's 'suboptimal.'  Having NO ranged attack is truly suboptimal, because of situations like this. Force the dragon to fight on -your- terms.




As I mentioned above, the consensus before seemed to be that a DM unleashing an encounter like this wouldn't let you run and hide easily.  Additionally, why should my Fighter carry a Bow unless he *knows* that he's going to be facing something that can hit from 20 squares away?  I don't really have any points in Dex, and neither does our Paladin.  So not only would we be operating at a -4 when compared to our Ranger, but we'd be at range to boot.  I suppose we _might _hit the thing 10% of the time or something...

Plus, I usually have Handaxes as it fits my character better.  They're heavy thrown, so I can use Strength, and I've got a high Con and usually only use Axes as my melee weapon of choice.  So again, unless I knew ahead of time what we were facing (Which would either break the 4th wall, or allow us to make *sure* that the Dragon wasn't in the open when we went after it) I wouldn't do anything different.


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## Victim (Nov 18, 2008)

It seems like a good idea to have a bow for the rare long range encounter AND a heavy thrown weapon for most ranged attacks.  It's not like carrying an extra weapon will be too much weight.


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## MadLordOfMilk (Nov 18, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> As I mentioned above, the consensus before seemed to be that a DM unleashing an encounter like this wouldn't let you run and hide easily.



I don't get it. Now, if they're NOT attacking from that sort of range, there's no incentive to run and hide. Unleashing an encounter like that would be the simplest way TO accomplish trying to make your PCs run and hide. If anything, that might be their goal, to try to encourage people to think outside of the box rather than strictly by what's on the character sheet.

...I might try this idea some time, if only to see the result.


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## MrMyth (Nov 18, 2008)

Victim said:


> It seems like a good idea to have a bow for the rare long range encounter AND a heavy thrown weapon for most ranged attacks. It's not like carrying an extra weapon will be too much weight.




Yeah - even if you don't know specifically you will be in a fight like this, a basic bow (by level 4) is cheap enough to simply have around for any supremely long range fight (whether it is a flying dragon, combat between two boats two hundred feet apart, taking some shots at enemies fleeing through a nearby canyon, etc.) Will you use it often? No. Is it possible you will never use it? Quite possibly. But having it instead of, say, one more healing potion is a pretty easy sacrifice for having it around if you do need it.


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## Danceofmasks (Nov 18, 2008)

That blue dragon sounds like a cakewalk compared to a green dragon perched on a roost.


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## DracoSuave (Nov 18, 2008)

Also regarding the illusory chasm:

What is the point of the spell?  Is it the chasm, or the illusion that the target is falling?  People seem to be hung up on the visual of the effect rather than what the spell is actually trying to accomplish:  The illusion that the target is falling, causing him to actually fall.  

Now, with a flying monster, that's easier to attain than with a ground-borne creature.  Flying things are -more- vulnerable to falling, not less, due to the fact they -know- there is no ground beneath them.

So the illusion can simply become that of a sense of vertigo complete with a loss of flight.  Overcompensation than turns that into a very real loss of flight, forcing the target to glide down.  You don't need to create an illusion of groundlessness beneath them to accompany the vertigo the spell provides.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 18, 2008)

Wow I'm amazed to see all the responses to my original posting.

I just got the Draconomicon, and it confirms that the Blue Dragon indeed is as dangerous as discussed here. "Blue dragons rarely land", "consider combat a long-term engagement", "fly near enough to their opponents to unleash a few barrages, then vanish, and then return - sometimes minutes or hours later".

But, they are vain and prideful - it's their weakness: "... it reacts with rage to any insinuation that it is weak or inferior".

So next time you see a blue dragon, either run, or yell at him: "You coward! You are too weak to stand your ground when you are not hiding in the clouds! I bet you fight like a pigeon when you hobble on those wobbly legs of yours."


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## DracoSuave (Nov 18, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> Additionally, why should my Fighter carry a Bow




Combat Challenge their artillery guy so he's not pummeling the ranger who -can- plug him with ease?

Our Paladin has a sling -solely- for the purpose of Divine Challenge when moving isn't an optimal option.

-Every- character should have a ranged attack.  Fighters can use it to mark foes they can't reach.  Will you use it all the time?  No.  But you want the option, and it's really cheap to implement.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 18, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> Wow I'm amazed to see all the responses to my original posting.
> 
> I just got the Draconomicon, and it confirms that the Blue Dragon indeed is as dangerous as discussed here. "Blue dragons rarely land", "consider combat a long-term engagement", "fly near enough to their opponents to unleash a few barrages, then vanish, and then return - sometimes minutes or hours later".
> 
> ...




Or you could take the opposite approach.  Deal with the initial attack, then run in apparent fear.  The Blue Dragon's ego will be satisfied and he will return perhaps minutes, or hours later.  What he wouldn't do is what was described, and that's hover 20 squares up for a significant amount of time engaging in a long term sniping battle with the party ranger.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 18, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> Combat Challenge their artillery guy so he's not pummeling the ranger who -can- plug him with ease?
> 
> Our Paladin has a sling -solely- for the purpose of Divine Challenge when moving isn't an optimal option.
> 
> -Every- character should have a ranged attack.  Fighters can use it to mark foes they can't reach.  Will you use it all the time?  No.  But you want the option, and it's really cheap to implement.




I didn't say I don't have a ranged weapon, just that I don't carry a bow.  I carry handaxes, because that makes more sense.  Even at long range I have a better chance to hit than I do with a bow at short range.  Additionally, a Paladin can do a better job with Divine Challenge at range than a Fighter can with a mark.  All my mark will do if the Artillery guy was attacking the Ranger would be to give him a -2 to hit, the Paladin will actually cause some damage.

That being said though, if the Ranger was in *that much danger* I would probably double move and burn an action point if I thought marking him would help.  The Ranger could also use Total Defense for essentially the same bonus to his defense, or burn his Second Wind if he still had it.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 18, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> What he wouldn't do is what was described, and that's hover 20 squares up for a significant amount of time engaging in a long term sniping battle with the party ranger.




Yes that's undraconic.

page 46 of the Draconomicon recommends to definitely use Hit-and-Run tactics, but tone it down when it becomes too frustrating, and let the dragon come down, driven by "bloodlust, impatience, or pride".

So for me as DM when I run a blue dragon, I'll definitely torture the PC's a little with the ranged at-will lightning attacks, come down for a bite or two, a breath attack and frightful presence, and then just take off and leave them in fear, only to return later, hahaha. Eventually there will be a melee showdown.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 18, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> Yes that's undraconic.
> 
> page 46 of the Draconomicon recommends to definitely use Hit-and-Run tactics, but tone it down when it becomes too frustrating, and let the dragon come down, driven by "bloodlust, impatience, or pride".
> 
> So for me as DM when I run a blue dragon, I'll definitely torture the PC's a little with the ranged at-will lightning attacks, come down for a bite or two, a breath attack and frightful presence, and then just take off and leave them in fear, only to return later, hahaha. Eventually there will be a melee showdown.




Yeah, and that sort of an encounter would be fair for PC's of that level.  They don't _have_ to be able to fly or attack at 20+ squares to engage the Dragon.  They just have to survive the initial harrying, and then wait for the final assault.

The whole problem I had with the encounter before was the idea that the Dragon wouldn't come down.  It doesn't make sense from a "fairness" standpoint to the PC's, and it doesn't make sense from a "flavor" or RP standpoint for the Dragon.  It's just a DM being cruel.


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## Engilbrand (Nov 18, 2008)

It's one of those hypothetical situations that shouldn't happen. The game is full of hypotheticals. Sure, you can have a dragon just hover and be annoying. But isn't that against the point of the dragon? Isn't it meant to blast from a distance, then fly down and scare the hell out of mere mortals while breathing fire or whatever on them? If I'm in a game and the DM acts like a douche, I call him on it. I've played in games like that before. I hate them. I stole players from the last game that I was in that was like that. They're no fun. Can a DM do that? Sure, but only until his players leave him.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 18, 2008)

Engilbrand said:


> It's one of those hypothetical situations that shouldn't happen. The game is full of hypotheticals. Sure, you can have a dragon just hover and be annoying. But isn't that against the point of the dragon? Isn't it meant to blast from a distance, then fly down and scare the hell out of mere mortals while breathing fire or whatever on them? If I'm in a game and the DM acts like a douche, I call him on it. I've played in games like that before. I hate them. I stole players from the last game that I was in that was like that. They're no fun. Can a DM do that? Sure, but only until his players leave him.




You know, what triggered my OP was quite the opposite incident. We encountered a blue dragon, and it was a lame fight - the dragon didn't take off, and we surrounded him and slowly beat him to death. 4th level characters. It made me think: This can't be true, so I looked him up in the MM and realized that he is much more powerful.
Part of a dragon fight should ALWAYS be that he flies around, makes the PC's a little despaired not just because of the frightful presence.
My favorite act is to make him take off and go after those who snipe at him from the back, thinking they are safe.... what a nasty surprise!


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## Wolf88 (Nov 19, 2008)

plane sailing, what if i reflavoured the spell as creating the illusion of a chasm (or simply of firm, solid ground) not under but OVER the dragon and consequently the illusion of the very open sky below him? wouldnt that result in a sad dragon actually throwing himself on the real ground? (read falling prone) or at least trying to figure out why the hell he is standing upside down? (read immobilized)

as a "traditional style" DM would you allow this?
it keeps both the spirit, the flavor and the mechanics... and it's funny as hell to boot


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## Derren (Nov 19, 2008)

Engilbrand said:


> It's one of those hypothetical situations that shouldn't happen. The game is full of hypotheticals. Sure, you can have a dragon just hover and be annoying. But isn't that against the point of the dragon? Isn't it meant to blast from a distance, then fly down and scare the hell out of mere mortals while breathing fire or whatever on them? If I'm in a game and the DM acts like a douche, I call him on it. I've played in games like that before. I hate them. I stole players from the last game that I was in that was like that. They're no fun. Can a DM do that? Sure, but only until his players leave him.




And I would be annoyed when the DM makes exactly that. Running a monster like a moron just so that the players get an easy win is extremely lame. A big part of the enjoyment I get from RPGs is solving problems with my character un a fantasy world. And that means that its my and the other players duty to find a way out of this situation. The DM should not solve this challenge for the PCs by letting the dragon act like an idiot, because its arrogant or some other lame and overused excuse.

About the spell, I wouldn't allow it to affect a flying creature. The spell is very specific in what it does. Sadly the "Say yes" principle seems to get turned more and more into "don't think about it, just roll" where only the rules text matter and nothing else.

To those who think that the spell should affect the dragon, would you also allow the Grease spell in 3E to trip a flying creature?


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## DracoSuave (Nov 19, 2008)

Derren said:


> About the spell, I wouldn't allow it to affect a flying creature. The spell is very specific in what it does. Sadly the "Say yes" principle seems to get turned more and more into "don't think about it, just roll" where only the rules text matter and nothing else.
> 
> To those who think that the spell should affect the dragon, would you also allow the Grease spell in 3E to trip a flying creature?




The spell creates an illusion of falling.  Flying stuff is vulnerable to falling.  It doesn't just create a chasm, it includes the psychic assault on their minds and the senses of accompanying vertigo, things that 'flying' does offer invulnerability to.


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## Lizard (Nov 19, 2008)

Imban said:


> Remember that by CustServ's (kinda dumb) ruling, anything that affects a square has infinite height, so Scorching Burst and Cloud of Daggers can still hit it out of the air. Not sure if there's much in the way of bursts or blasts for Clerics or Fighters at that level, though.




The FRACK?

Do you have a source for that ruling?

I've got some melee burst attacks I'd LOVE to use to knock down people flying above me. I want to make sure I have "official" backup when trying to pull that (bleep) off, though...


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## Lizard (Nov 19, 2008)

Derren said:


> .
> 
> About the spell, I wouldn't allow it to affect a flying creature. The spell is very specific in what it does. Sadly the "Say yes" principle seems to get turned more and more into "don't think about it, just roll" where only the rules text matter and nothing else.
> 
> To those who think that the spell should affect the dragon, would you also allow the Grease spell in 3E to trip a flying creature?




In 3e? Hell no.
In 4e? Sure.

I've finally figured out the Zen Of 4e. The powers/exploits/etc aren't "real". Youre character doesn't know Pinning Strike, or even Magic Missile. Rather, you, the player, have selected a set of Plot Powers. At various times, as defined by the rules, you can declare something has happened in the game world -- so-and-so takes 1d8 force damage, that creature suffers these game effects. Even the NAMES of the game effects don't matter -- a "trip" isn't a "trip", it's a set of specified conditions which are applied to the creature. How this "looks" and how these conditions got to be on the creature are entirely up in the air. In terms of what happens in-game, the character invoking the Plot Power might not even be the direct cause. For example, "Pinning Strike" on a flying creature with nothing nearby to "pin" it to. You invoke this Plot Power, and make the roll, and the creature suffers, say, a sudden pulled muscle, which deals the appropriate damage and makes it impossible for it to keep flying. "Magic Missile" could be a different "spell" every time, so long as it does the same type and quantity of damage. One time it might be a flying sword. The next round, you could cause a bubble of energy to explode and burst under someone's skin. The round after that, a small imp appears and bites at the target. Etc, etc, etc. 

There is a complete and total disconnect between the rules of 4e, and the world in which the game occurs. Once you internalize that the rules make no sense, the rules start making sense. Hence, the Zen of 4e. You must accept the paradox.


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## Nail (Nov 19, 2008)

MrMyth said:


> So the lesson is apparently for everyone to carry around rope, javelins, longbows, and a 10' ladder.



Best quote of th' whole thread....


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## James McMurray (Nov 19, 2008)

Derren said:


> Running a monster like a moron just so that the players get an easy win is extremely lame.




Luckily those are not the only two options.


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## Engilbrand (Nov 19, 2008)

Lizard, I usually read your posts as rather critical of 4th edition. I haven't seen them in a while, though. I hope that your post was not in jest. Because it's exactly how I look at it all.
When I DM, that's the sort of stuff that I do. There's a Swordmage power that roots a guy in place through magical energy. I described the ground coming up around the guys legs. When he teleported away, the ground reformed around him. He was confused, but he got it. There was a point where something hit him hard and said that he would take damage if he moved. I described the guy hitting the ground and causing a chunk of rock to hit him. The other rocks around him were vibrating off of the ground. When he moved, they flew through the air and slammed into him. He thought that it was pretty cool.
It's through reflavoring, as has been said, that people are able to describe Rays of Frost and ghosts causing the person to feel cold, or Cloud of Daggers suddenly having zombie hands burst from the ground.
The mechanics are not the physics of the game world. People only yell the moves they're doing in anime and certain martial arts movies. In D&D, they spin around and hack at someone's neck, or they put a shoulder into a shield and use the proximity to pin a foot to the ground.
It's why the book flat out states that you should feel free to reflavor anything. The powers, the flavor text, and the names are all tied together for the default assumptions of the world, but it's only the mechanics that matter.


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## RyvenCedrylle (Nov 20, 2008)

The question I ask myself upon seeing this is "what are my players' payoffs?"  That is, what is it that makes them like playing the game?

If my players are in it to spam powers and roll dice, then it is well within the spirit of the edition to simply have the thing land and fight them in melee.  Odds are the players won't notice or care about the disconnect.  I can't say I would personally play in a group like this for long, but it's the right thing to do for a certain type of player.  And yes, Illusory Chasm works fine here.

If your players are really old-school, and like solving nearly impossible puzzles as _players_, then the dragon stays airborne and does everything possible to avoid their attacks and hit them without fear of reprisal.  Let them roleplay leaping off a cliff onto the dragon's head or whatever.  They're probably going to run away and regroup if they don't dream up something better.  Illusory Chasm *doesn't *work here.

Somewhere in the middle of this spectrum, I might allow a Skill challenge to force the dragon down into melee (Bluff to taunt, Athletics to throw ropes, etc.), but would avoid actual combat mechanics until this challenge either passes or fails.

My two cents.


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## James McMurray (Nov 20, 2008)

According to the Draconomicon



> Fortunately for their opponents, most dragons engage in strafing runs only for brief periods of time before bloodlust, impatience, or pride causes them to reenter melee.


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## Derren (Nov 20, 2008)

Also from the Draconomicon



> Blue dragons rarely land during combat, preferring flight and far-reaching attacks to lumbering over land in close melee. Because they like to fight from a distance, blue dragons consider combat a long-term engagement.


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## James McMurray (Nov 20, 2008)

So a blue (and possibly others) should stay airborne. However, I still think they should stay at or bouncing in and out of a height of ten. When their breath recharges they should definitely move in close enough to use it. And when the fight gets too frustrating for the players, they should leave or come in close. It's supposed to be a fun game, not an excerise in frustration and boredom.


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## Herschel (Nov 20, 2008)

Dragons are supposed to be SMART. Sure they might give you small openings, but they're not just going to walk in. Killing a dragon SHOULD be a major accomplishment requiring strategy, skill and some luck even. Just standing toe-to-toe does not favor a dragon at all. If a group is too dumb to fight it, so be it. The Dragon shouldn't sit at 20 spaces either, but should strafe, breath, etc. to give him an advantage when possible.


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## Wolf88 (Nov 20, 2008)

Yes yes, but of course dragons aren't just smart, they are also arrogant, spiteful creatures of burning passion and rage!

You can't reasonably expect a dragon (expecially a younger one) to keep a cool head after being whacked a couple of times while strafing!


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## DrSpunj (Nov 20, 2008)

Wolf88 said:


> Yes yes, but of course dragons aren't just smart, they are also arrogant, spiteful creatures of burning passion and rage!
> 
> You can't reasonably expect a dragon (expecially a younger one) to keep a cool head after being whacked a couple of times while strafing!




But overall it sounds very natural for the Young Blue to strafe a round or three and, if it gave more damage to the PCs than it took, fly away for awhile feeling superior. As a DM that might be the best way to get my players to really focus on how the PCs can best deal with this threat. They might or might not have the right combination of ranged weapons, powers, magic items and whatever else to truly take this Young Blue on with a reasonable chance of success. If they do, great, the next time I bring him back around I know we're probably going to really get into this battle.

If not, the next time I bring him around I'll strafe them a few more times and my players will hopefully run & hide or have already beat feet out of the dragon's hunting range and I've just added another name to my DM's list of "recurring villains", probably after the party has taken time to outfit themselves better and are looking _forward_ to fighting that arrogant dragon again.

That's a win-win situation for everyone! 

And for the record, I'd be okay with a player reflavoring the Illusion spell, but since I don't allow anything from Dragon without my explicit approval hopefully we would have reworked the flavor text & name well before we actually came across this situation in a game. I agree with Dragon material being not playtested & edited to the same standards as book material. There's a lot of good stuff in there idea-wise, though, to build around if a player is looking for something specific for a good character concept.

Thanks


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## Wolf88 (Nov 20, 2008)

DrSpunj said:


> But overall it sounds very natural for the Young Blue to strafe a round or three and, if it gave more damage to the PCs than it took, fly away for awhile feeling superior. As a DM that might be the best way to get my players to really focus on how the PCs can best deal with this threat. They might or might not have the right combination of ranged weapons, powers, magic items and whatever else to truly take this Young Blue on with a reasonable chance of success. If they do, great, the next time I bring him back around I know we're probably going to really get into this battle.
> 
> If not, the next time I bring him around I'll strafe them a few more times and my players will hopefully run & hide or have already beat feet out of the dragon's hunting range and I've just added another name to my DM's list of "recurring villains", probably after the party has taken time to outfit themselves better and are looking _forward_ to fighting that arrogant dragon again.
> 
> ...




Agreed, it would be quite the arrogant thing to do for the dragon if he didnt get damaged much! But if he gets hit a couple of times i really see him throwing himself down on the PCs, snatching one with his claws, flying up, biting him and throwing him down before flying away just for the hell of it!  (kidnapping him would be nice too... but maybe it would be better to save that for an NPC ) 

Hey do we have any rule to handle flyby-snatching?


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## jonshaft (Nov 21, 2008)

*Poisonous dwarf*

I think the perfect idea would be to force feed the  party dwarf as much poison as he could possibly take preferably after getting him thoroughly intoxicated. Then have him lay down in a field under the dragon and wait for the dragon to eat him, get sick , and die. Then take the dragon's hoard and buy the raise dead ritual for the party dwarf. Laugh and spend the remaining hoard on more poison and ale.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 21, 2008)

jonshaft said:


> I think the perfect idea would be to force feed the  party dwarf as much poison as he could possibly take preferably after getting him thoroughly intoxicated. Then have him lay down in a field under the dragon and wait for the dragon to eat him, get sick , and die. Then take the dragon's hoard and buy the raise dead ritual for the party dwarf. Laugh and spend the remaining hoard on more poison and ale.




My God...that's just crazy enough to work!

*grabs Dwarf*  "Here my friend, have a drink of this and let's discuss this 'Dragon problem' that the town is having..."


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 21, 2008)

jonshaft said:


> I think the perfect idea would be to force feed the  party dwarf as much poison as he could possibly take preferably after getting him thoroughly intoxicated. Then have him lay down in a field under the dragon and wait for the dragon to eat him, get sick , and die. Then take the dragon's hoard and buy the raise dead ritual for the party dwarf. Laugh and spend the remaining hoard on more poison and ale.




You know, you can propose this openly to us dwarves. I'd volunteer to do this.
I'll probably survive my saving throws against poison, swallowed whole, and being  out whole because noone can digest dwarfs.


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## Jhaelen (Nov 22, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> You know, you can propose this openly to us dwarves. I'd volunteer to do this.
> I'll probably survive my saving throws against poison, swallowed whole, and being  out whole because noone can digest dwarfs.



Oh, you've obviously never heard about the Glorantha trolls, then:
They consider dwarves a delicacy because their digestive system 'identifies' them as mineral matter and forwards them to their 'rock-stomach' where their flesh becomes extra-tender.


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## outsider (Nov 23, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> There are no powers with range in heroic tier that can knock a target prone or immobilize it.




Walking Wounded, Rogue 5, PHB

There are actually a tonne of Wizard and Warlock powers that do this in heroic tier, but their range is only 10, so not useful for your specific situation.

Flying artillery is a pretty hard type of monster to deal with, particularly at low levels.  I'm not suprised a level 4 party would find it near impossible in an open field.  As the party levels though, it becomes easier to deal with.


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## DracoSuave (Nov 24, 2008)

Open fields are bad encounter design in the 4e mentality anyways.


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## Nail (Nov 24, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> Open fields are bad encounter design in the 4e mentality anyways.




For most encounters?  Sure, I agree with you.  But for one memorable encounter over the course of a campaign?  ...it sounds like a *great* idea.


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## Skallgrim (Nov 25, 2008)

outsider said:


> Flying artillery is a pretty hard type of monster to deal with, particularly at low levels.  I'm not suprised a level 4 party would find it near impossible in an open field.  As the party levels though, it becomes easier to deal with.




This is true.  The other thing is simply encounter design in general.  

PCs in an open field (with few ranged options) vs.  a blue dragon strafer?
Very hard.

Same PCs outside a tall castle against kobolds on the walls?
Very hard.

Group with no Arcana-trained character against a magical trap?
Very hard.

If you give _your group_ any encounter that _your group_ doesn't have the "tools" to meet, it's going to be very hard. I don't know why this type of discussion keeps popping up everywhere I go, in every game system I play.  There's no need to come up with a specific answer for the particular challenge, because there will always be another encounter which can be designed this way.

If I was playing this scenario, as a player I'd assume one of these things (in no particular order):

The DM must not really intend for us to fight this monster. We are supposed to run away, or negotiate, or something.  We don't have the tools for this.

The DM is running a deliberately deadly encounter to encourage us to be creative in surviving it.  He has hidden (or will allow) "plot tools" to help us overcome this threat.

The DM is a doofus and hasn't thought this encounter out.  We are all going to die because he is dumb.

The DM wants to kill us, but "seem fair" about it, rather than just having a Tarrasque eat us.

I mean, if you put your group in a situation where you know they don't have the tools (and aren't going to be allowed to find/create the tools) to succeed, you either want them to fail (which is fine for story reasons), or you are a doofus, to me.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 25, 2008)

It also (mostly?) comes down to the broad 'status quo' vs 'sandbox' style of campaign (I remember the 3e DMG discusses this. Does the 4e DMG discuss it?)


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