# What exactly makes Math hard to some people?



## Wereserpent (Nov 23, 2004)

Well, I am doing my math homework and I began to ponder this, what exactly DOES make math hard to some people and easy to tohers.  I almost always also hear of math and Science lumped together, which does make sense, but I am generally good at Science, while I suck at math.  Well more so I can understand the concepts in Science, but suck at the math in it.  Sooo, what does determine if someone is good at math or not?


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## der_kluge (Nov 23, 2004)

I don't know.  Looks pretty simple to me.


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## Piratecat (Nov 23, 2004)

die_kluge said:
			
		

> I don't know.  Looks pretty simple to me.




Please let me be the first to kick you in the junk and take your wallet.


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## Altamont Ravenard (Nov 23, 2004)

Why do people have a knack for stuff, and not other stuff? I don't think there's an easy explanation (except maybe that it's gene-related). Some people are good at math. Some people can burp the alphabet. Some people have no problem making friends.

One thing I might add, regarding math, that I've noticed: some people, when confronted with a math problem (whatever it is) simply "freeze up", and don't / can't even make the effort. Math, to them, is totally alien (I'm sure there are other topics that are alien to other people).

AR


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## Storyteller01 (Nov 23, 2004)

Howard Gardener came up with a theory that the mind is made up of multiple intelligences working together (spatial, kinesic, Math, music, language, etc). The dominant or more developed intelligences are the aspects in life your good at, or some such. It similar to people having a dominant side (right vs left handed) or dominant sense (some folks are visual, some like to touch, some rely on hearing).

I guess is how the whole mixes together...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 23, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Please let me be the first to kick you in the junk and take your wallet.



 Can I be second?

Ugh, I just plain don't like math. Back when I was in high school(alright, only a year ago, but that feels nice to say) I remember that most of the art students were also the kids who just plain didn't do well with math. Something to do with us being slightly crazy/abstract thinking. We asked too many 'why' questions.


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## Wereserpent (Nov 23, 2004)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> .One thing I might add, regarding math, that I've noticed: some people, when confronted with a math problem (whatever it is) simply "freeze up", and don't / can't even make the effort. Math, to them, is totally alien (I'm sure there are other topics that are alien to other people).




Thats  what happens to me.  I can sometimes do math if I need to in real life, but on a math test I cant do it at all.  heh, I also suck at foreign languages, but I think anyone who read my "Jealousy" thread knows that.  I am very good at anything having to do with Literature though.


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## Scribble (Nov 23, 2004)

doesn't it have something to do with what brain side you are? 


Anyway I know match bugs me because I always miss little things like commas and decimals and stuff... I'll think I did it perfect but then I find out I missed a . somewhere... Stupid math.

I keep fighting it, but it keeps winning.


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## Wereserpent (Nov 23, 2004)

Scribble said:
			
		

> doesn't it have something to do with what brain side you are?
> 
> 
> Anyway I know match bugs me because I always miss little things like commas and decimals and stuff... I'll think I did it perfect but then I find out I missed a . somewhere... Stupid math.
> ...




Yep, I have found that most everything I do in any academic endeavor is wrong.  So keep trying, at least you know you are better at something than someone.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 23, 2004)

Galeros said:
			
		

> Yep, I have found that most everything I do in any academic endeavor is wrong.  So keep trying, at least you know you are better at something than someone.



 That's dangerous logic, though. It means that someone in this world is better than everyone else at being worse at EVERYTHING. What if you end up being that person?! Dangerous thinking...dangerous...


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## Wereserpent (Nov 23, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> That's dangerous logic, though. It means that someone in this world is better than everyone else at being worse at EVERYTHING. What if you end up being that person?! Dangerous thinking...dangerous...




I was never very good at logic...wait, I am that person anyways.


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## Christopher Lambert (Nov 23, 2004)

I'm good at biology and terrible at math. They're only related if you have to do statistics, and fortunately probability was one of those few math areas I was good at.

Often I find I'm good at one part of math that everyone else hates... and bad at what's easy. Anybody here know how to factor? There are three ways to do so that I know of. There's the "easy" method, the complete the squares method and the quadratic formula. I can do the latter two. The "easy" method completely escapes me.


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## Wereserpent (Nov 23, 2004)

Christopher Lambert said:
			
		

> I'm good at biology and terrible at math. They're only related if you have to do statistics, and fortunately probability was one of those few math areas I was good at.
> 
> Often I find I'm good at one part of math that everyone else hates... and bad at what's easy. Anybody here know how to factor? There are three ways to do so that I know of. There's the "easy" method, the complete the squares method and the quadratic formula. I can do the latter two. The "easy" method completely escapes me.





I too am good at Biology, in fact it is one of my favorite subjects.  

Heh, I can only do the quadratic formula out of the methods you named.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 23, 2004)

Galeros said:
			
		

> I was never very good at logic...wait, I am that person anyways.



 Nope, you couldn't be. You're typing, which means you're obviously better at typing than someone who can't.


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## cybertalus (Nov 23, 2004)

In my experience the only thing school is very good at measuring is whether or not you're very good at school.

So don't sweat it.

Despite what your teachers may say, the real world seldom works like they describe it, and very little of what you learn after the 8th grade and before you start taking classes in your major at college will be useful after college.  Even then if you're like most people I've known you won't wind up working in a field even vaguely related to your major anyway.


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## Galethorn (Nov 23, 2004)

I've always liked math (though 'showing my work' took almost all of the fun out of it later on), and I was pretty good at it, up until freshman year (9th grade 'round these parts) in high school. After that, I started an independant learning program, where I basically made my own projects (based on all sorts of guidelines, like what sort of credit I needed at any given time, and certain numbers of hours required per credit). Since I could choose my own projects, I neglected math for a year. Then, I struggled with it for another year, and I'm only now relearning everything as a senior.

Fortunately, I'm also in a program this year where I can get some of my high school credits by taking classes at a community college, at the state's expense. This quarter, I've been in an astronomy class, in which I've been able to get 90% of the algebra I forgot back into working order...

So, I guess by a lot of definitions, I'd be a math/science person, but I also spend a lot of my time on art (drawing and photoshop) and writing. As far as multiple intelligences go, I think I got a pretty decent point-buy, but Music has to be my dump stat. Sure, I like listening to some music, and I learned to play the recorder in 4th grade, like everybody else, but I just don't have any interest in playing any instruments, composing any lyrics (beyond guileful parodies), or even listening to the stuff on the radio.

Wait, what was the topic? _<checks thread title>_

Oh....uh....hrm...because it wasn't ever taught to them in a way that meshes with the way their mind works?


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## Crothian (Nov 23, 2004)

Math is a self fulling prophecy.  If you think you are good at it, you are; if you think you are bad at it you are.  I was a tutor for many years and the biggest excuse I heard from people claiming to be bad at math was because "they were bad at Math".  Math is also one of those subjects that the more you work at it the better you are.  People don't take homework seriously and they get into it what they put out.


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## Storyteller01 (Nov 23, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Math is a self fulling prophecy.  If you think you are good at it, you are; if you think you are bad at it you are.  I was a tutor for many years and the biggest excuse I heard from people claiming to be bad at math was because "they were bad at Math".  Math is also one of those subjects that the more you work at it the better you are.  People don't take homework seriously and they get into it what they put out.




Agreed, but you have to admit that there are people more talented at math then others. It's that way with all skills (even you funky ones).

I'm decent at math, but I have to take it slow. I make too many mistakes or miss something. Others can do long equations in their head, no mistakes, without missing a beat...


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## GreyShadow (Nov 23, 2004)

Storyteller01 said:
			
		

> I'm decent at math, but I have to take it slow. I make too many mistakes or miss something. Others can do long equations in their head, no mistakes, without missing a beat...




I'm one of those that can do the long equations in my head.  It was always a problem at school thou, as the teacher would then ask how I got the answer and I could never describe how I reached the conclusion.  I just knew it.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 23, 2004)

Who knows how these sort of things work.  I have a friend who is an absolute whiz with computers.  He can build up a computer from scratch no sweat, and if your computer is having a problem he can figure out what's wrong with it in no time flat.  However, whenever he is forced to write something up, his spelling and punctuation are _terrible_; I'm not kidding when I say that I know fifth-graders who can write more coherently than he can.

We all have areas that we're good in and areas where we just plain suck.


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## Crothian (Nov 23, 2004)

Storyteller01 said:
			
		

> Agreed, but you have to admit that there are people more talented at math then others. It's that way with all skills (even you funky ones).




That is very true, but in Math more people seem to defeat themselves then are defeated by the Math.  And while confidence helps out in everything, in Math I've just seen a lot of people self defeated.


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## Algolei (Nov 23, 2004)

I'm really good at subtraction, but my addition sucks wind.  That must be why I prefer THAC0 over BAB.  

Or wait--maybe it's the other way around:  I'm good at subtraction because I prefer THAC0?


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Something to do with us being slightly crazy/abstract thinking. We asked too many 'why' questions.




Oh, like all the scientists and engineers who made the computer you type on possible don't ask "Why?"  I'm a physicist.  There are days when I use more math than I use English, and the whole point of using the stuff is to ask "Why?"  Same goes for pretty much every sicentist on the planet.

Don't confuse aptitude with attitude.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 23, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Oh, like all the scientists and engineers who made the computer you type on possible don't ask "Why?"  I'm a physicist.  There are days when I use more math than I use English, and the whole point of using the stuff is to ask "Why?"  Same goes for pretty much every sicentist on the planet.
> 
> Don't confuse aptitude with attitude.



 I think the most common use of 'why' that I remember involved things that were considered absolute in math. Can't think of anything off the top of my head, but the fact that some things just plain were THIS WAY with no explanation other than 'Because it is' always bothered me.

Its not really a matter of being good or bad at math...I just plain don't like it. Or at least, the higher up crazy Calculus and Algebra that will never be used in most people's day to day lives.


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## Thanee (Nov 23, 2004)

It's the ability of abstraction and translation.

 If you are able to look at a problem and find the little components it is based on, then translate that to another problem you already know the solution of, and then translate the solution back to the problem at hand, then you are good at math.

 Math is reducing huge unwieldy problems down to small already known problems, and to see beyond their surface and right into the structure of them.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Henry (Nov 23, 2004)

I did fine in Math, Algebra, Geometry, and Calculus; it was integral calculus that stopped me cold in college. In fact, it's why I changed majors from Chemistry to Computers - Integral Calculus screwed with everything I thought I knew about Calculus; as a result, my Physical Chemistry work bombed.


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## der_kluge (Nov 23, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Please let me be the first to kick you in the junk and take your wallet.




If it's any consolation, I have no idea what I posted.  I just google-searched for "equation" and found something that looked complicated. 

Furthest I got in college was Business Calculus, which I think was more or less equivalent to Pre-Cal.  I didn't care for it much, but I think I somehow managed a B.

Boolean Algebra did me in.  I had to switch catalogs to avoid that class.  A whole bunch of us CIS majors switched from the 98 catalog to the 99 since it was no longer a requirement.  Thank god.  I'd never been able to graduate if I had to take that class.  It was a nightmare.


And I don't subscribe to the right-brain/left-brain theory.  I majored in computer information systems in college, with a minor in music.  I dropped the minor after the first year since it was just a waste, but I've always had a strong love for both of them.  Brain theory would indicate that people should prefer one or the other, but not both.


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## Simon Collins (Nov 23, 2004)

Hi

I'm a psychology graduate and I have to disagree that there is only one factor behind why people are good or bad at maths. I think it's a mixture of at least two major influences on the brain:
1. Nature/Genetics - people are born with a natural proclivity to make the most of certain areas of their brain, which relate to different skills.
2. Nurture/Experience - when we're naturally good at something, we tend to spend more time doing it and vice versa. If we're criticised in school or at home for being bad at a particular skill, that influences both our willingness to spend more time doing it, and the openness of our mind to taking on board new ways of thinking and doing. 

So that natural proclivity is likely (though not certain) to get more practice and more encouragement, engendering a more positive attitude (with a correlating greater likelihood to take on new concepts). There are a few people that break this theory - those that are determined to work hard enough to overcome their natural weakness in an area despite emotional and intellectual setbacks as they grow up.

In other words, to make up for a natural weakness in a certain area, you have to spend a lot more time and be pretty emotionally tough to balance up against the skills where you are naturally stronger.

Maths being an important part of RPGs, it would seem worth spending the extra time to improve one's maths skills - I know I've had to, as my maths skills were always fairly weak (despite my father being a maths teacher - bleh!!!  ). The motivation should be there already to improve your RPGing!

Good luck.

Simon Collins


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## Voodoo (Nov 23, 2004)

> Its not really a matter of being good or bad at math...I just plain don't like it. Or at least, the higher up crazy Calculus and Algebra that will never be used in most people's day to day lives.




But then again when was the last time you used Shakespear, costal erosion patterns, or the reproduction cycles of bacteria in 'day to day' life. Most of what you learn at school you will never use once you've left education. Thats not to say its pointless at all, because if someone hadn't stuck at maths then there would be alot less technology in the world. (hmm, perhaps not such a good thing)

Also being good at maths doesn't make you good at all maths, I have a math degree but my basic multiplication sucks. Differential partial equations - fine, empowering fireballs - poor. 

I agree with Storyteller01 about Howard Gardener's theory. If you have a player who struggles adding up 10d6 try getting them to switch their dice from dots to digits (or digits to dots). It wont work for everyone by any means but it can be suprising how much it can help.


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## Scribble (Nov 23, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Math is a self fulling prophecy. If you think you are good at it, you are; if you think you are bad at it you are. I was a tutor for many years and the biggest excuse I heard from people claiming to be bad at math was because "they were bad at Math". Math is also one of those subjects that the more you work at it the better you are. People don't take homework seriously and they get into it what they put out.




I agree with this to a point. For instance with me, no matter how much I tried, I'd always miss SOMETHING. The devil is in the details as they say. And so was my distaste for math. 



			
				die_kluge said:
			
		

> And I don't subscribe to the right-brain/left-brain theory. I majored in computer information systems in college, with a minor in music. I dropped the minor after the first year since it was just a waste, but I've always had a strong love for both of them. Brain theory would indicate that people should prefer one or the other, but not both.




Actually, music is described as sort of the sound of math. The two a very much related.

That said I'm not a die hard follower of that theory. But it does make sense that you would have a dominant brain side. You pretty much have a dominant everything else side...


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## Mercule (Nov 23, 2004)

I was always good at math.  I did fractions in my head faster than my 5th grade teacher and had to convince her I wasn't cheating.  I worked two chapters ahead in algebra -- without realizing I was two chapters ahead (I was just playing around).  When I got to trigonometry, though, I stopped cold.  To this day, sine, cosine, etc. will shut me down.  When I moved into calculus, I once again excelled -- until they threw trig back into the mix.  

How wierd is that?

Since I was a chemical engineering major, I was on the road to some pretty advanced math.  It's probably a good thing that I got more interested in political science than chemical engineering.  If I hadn't changed majors of my own accord, my grades in math may have forced me to do so, eventually.


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## Aust Diamondew (Nov 23, 2004)

Yes trig sucks.  But most of the other stuff I'm good at.

But anyway it probably has to do with your DNA and your up bringing.  
Nature and Nurture.

And brain theory does not state people should always prefer using one side or the other, nothing is ever always.  Most activities require you to use both sides of the brain to an extent.  While writing a novel might require creativity (right brain) it will also require logic and an understanding of how to put words together to form intelegible sentences (left brain).  Same with alot of other things, drawing, music paticuarly (requires alot of left brain to move those fingers the proper way on an instrument).
D&D has crunch (left brain primary) and fluff (right brain primary).  But both bequire use of the other half of the brain as well as requiring each other to play D&D.


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## Goblyns Hoard (Nov 23, 2004)

The wonderful thing about being a genius to the level of Einstein is that they do wierd things with you after you die... like preserve your brain for posterity.  And then after they figure out some other things about your brain... like which areas are being used to do the maths (don't ask my which I'm a geneticist not a brain surgeon) they then test your brain to see what it's like.

Turns out that the part of the brain that does math... Einstein's was something like 30% larger than us normal folks.  His brain was wired to do maths... go figure.

I'm sure it's not all entirely nature for the rest of us (get a lousy teacher and you get turned off a subject quickly)... but for those that excel at something like this there's going to be a lot of DNA/intrauterine influence which pretty much means you're born that way.

As for me... maths I could do it, but mainly because I could remember the steps and perform the processes easily enough.  Forgotten them ALL now so at this point I suck at it, but if I needed to I'm sure I could do it again.  Don't ask me to enjoy it, and definitely don't take the calculator away cause I can't do the arithmatic.


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## robaustin (Nov 23, 2004)

First - I'm not anyone exceptional at math, but I am continually appalled at the lack of even basic math skills in the general population.  Working on a help desk that supports MS Office - I am often asked how to make the most basic formulas.  Things like (a+b)/c.  Very basic algebra.  I often bring up Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally (the acronyrm for order of operations) so that people will be a bit more clear on things but I get the phone equivalent of blank stares from most folks.  I can't say I would be proficient in calc, but I can figure out basic formulas.  I know math is pretty much just memorizing formulas and rules but I never took the time to do it, so I'm not proficient in it.  So in my case it's probably learning, since I can do basic formulas.

Second - I'm also continually appalled that people can't spell. I can't for the life of me figure out why it's so hard to figure out the spellings of words.  I work with a 55 year old guy and when he types the worklogs of cases he constantly misspells thing. I guess the explanation is probably that genetically I'm just predisposed to language. I'm good at spelling, good at pronouncing foreign names (and particular in English pronounciation as well), and such.  It must be a natural ability.

So in conclusion, from my experience - combination of learning and natural ability.  

Don't get me started on my language pet peeves....they are many...

--*Rob


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## barsoomcore (Nov 23, 2004)

Voodoo said:
			
		

> But then again when was the last time you used Shakespear, costal erosion patterns, or the reproduction cycles of bacteria in 'day to day' life. Most of what you learn at school you will never use once you've left education.



If you're not using Shakespeare every day, you just aren't living.



And of course, for a DM, it's ALL grist for the mill, isn't it? Coastal erosion patterns? Sure, I need to know how those work. Bacteria reproduction? Huh, that gives me an idea for a spell that replicates itself...

Keep in mind that "most" of what you learn in school you don't learn in the classroom. School is where we put people who don't know how to behave in society and keep them for the twelve-thirteen years it takes to prove you know the rules. Classes are just things for them to do in the meantime.

Math requires a kind of abstract thinking and some people never seem to learn that "jump" out of the material world into the abstract world of math. They have trouble thinking of numbers as just numbers, and the whole thing seems really pointless and unwieldy to them. 

My mom, my sisters and my wife are all like that. They have real trouble working with anything more sophisticated than bookkeeping-type operations. And they're all of them smart, smart women. I don't know if it's in their genes, or the way they were taught or what.

It's a funny old world.


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## bolen (Nov 23, 2004)

I have no idea how someone who likes RPGs can hate math.  To me math is the backbone of what the game is.  How can you remember all the illogical rules (attacks of opp., what the bonus is to save vs fear ect.) and not understand the beauty of mathmatics.  That makes no sense to me.

I teach physics and hear all day that people cant "do" math.  What I see is two things

1) A lack of confidence (probrably the fault of those grade school teachers who did not drill you enough as a child)

2) Sloppy work.  This is not a put down.  again it is the fault of folks who did not beat it into you as a child.  Write out every step (dont do it in your head) If you work an algebra problem plug the answer back into the original problem

Practice, practice.  If you dont work at it you can't get better.

Again if you play RPGs, I think the abstract reasoning skills are there.  You just need to bite the bullet and work at it.  

There is no distinction between science and math at this level  (at the graduate level they are worlds apart because they attempt to answer different questions).  So if you like science, you cant not like math.  They are the same.


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2004)

bolen said:
			
		

> I have no idea how someone who likes RPGs can hate math.  To me math is the backbone of what the game is.  How can you remember all the illogical rules (attacks of opp., what the bonus is to save vs fear ect.) and not understand the beauty of mathmatics.  That makes no sense to me.




Well, let me try to explain that little phenomenon...

It is a "role-playing game" right?  That means that playing of roles has a lot to do with it.  And math has darned little to do with the playing of roles in a theatrical sense.  You don't need differential equations to understand or perform in _Hamlet_.

For you, math is the backbone of the game.  For folks who enjoy the drama and theatrical side of things more, the backbone is the story, and the math is an annoyance that frequently gets in the way.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 23, 2004)

bolen said:
			
		

> I have no idea how someone who likes RPGs can hate math.  To me math is the backbone of what the game is.  How can you remember all the illogical rules (attacks of opp., what the bonus is to save vs fear ect.) and not understand the beauty of mathmatics.  That makes no sense to me.




Except there are no detailed formulas and everything is(mostly) basic addition and subtraction. You don't have to like math to do basic addition and subtraction. (And there is no such thing as beauty of mathmatics )

I agree with Umbran, we don't all come to the game for the math. In fact, I'd doubt that many people at ALL really rely on the math as a backbone as much as other things. Of course, I could be wrong.



> I teach physics and hear all day that people cant "do" math.  What I see is two things




Many people have said there are these two reasons for people not able to do math, but no one remembers the third. It IS possible to just plain not like math, whether you're good at it or not. Not liking it can easily come off as looking like you just can't do it.


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Can't think of anything off the top of my head, but the fact that some things just plain were THIS WAY with no explanation other than 'Because it is' always bothered me.




That's not a trait of artists, in particular.  Lots of people askt hat sort of thing in math classes.  Good teachers can answer sometimes.  Other times, the teacher is sort of stuck, because they way to understand "why" is only describable with even more involved math.  The answer to "Why is 1+1=2?" is found a short way into Set Theory, which a kid in Junior high school just isn't going to be able to swallow.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 23, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> That's not a trait of artists, in particular.  Lots of people askt hat sort of thing in math classes.  Good teachers can answer sometimes.  Other times, the teacher is sort of stuck, because they way to understand "why" is only describable with even more involved math.  The answer to "Why is 1+1=2?" is found a short way into Set Theory, which a kid in Junior high school just isn't going to be able to swallow.



 Good point. 

I remember there was one thing that was a 'because it is' answer but I can't pinpoint exactly what. It was one of the more complicated things. Could have actually been something dealing with the already mentioned evil trig.  I guess it really does depend on your point of view. Math has a way of explaining things in a very definite matter, and getting there it uses a good amount of (what I feel are) assumed facts. I just don't think everything in the universe can be explained off by numbers


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## Thotas (Nov 23, 2004)

The most common reason that people suck at math, or at least aren't better at it ...

... and I stress, most -- as has been noted, everyone's different, but as has also been noted, the general lack of ability in the populace is appalling ... 

... is that the first thing most people learn about math is that it's hard.  The second thing they learn is that it's ugly.  Neither is true; although admitedly math isn't easy and does get harder as you go.  And most of the excuses I hear are bogus.  My friend Bill who "can't do math"?  Try watching him play Magic: the Gathering.  Artistic types can't do math?  Well, when I'm around and those who know me have a math/science/logic question, I'm usually the first place they go.  And when they have a need for someone to do a drawing, those same people look to me immediately.  Rather than excluding each other, in my case anyway, they inform each other.  I use mathematical ideas in my art, and artistic ideas help my appreciation of math.

Unlearn that it's hard, but know that doesn't mean it's easy.  In 99% of cases, that will help.


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## Davek (Nov 23, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Math requires a kind of abstract thinking and some people never seem to learn that "jump" out of the material world into the abstract world of math. They have trouble thinking of numbers as just numbers, and the whole thing seems really pointless and unwieldy to them.




I think this represents the problem quite well.

I remember learning math in school by using very 'rote' like methods. We were never really taught how to even distinguish between material and abstract. We were just told 'this is how it is' and expected to do so.

It wasn't until I started 'rebelling' and thinking outside of the box that I was able to jump over some of the mental blocks I had with math. I learned to come up with my own way of calculating results, and eventually I was able to understand the 'official' methods were really doing the same thing, just more efficiently.

I think that more effort needs to be spent on teaching kids/people how to solve problems in general, not so much on giving them formulae to do so. That will come once they understand how to deal with problems. Sometimes I feel that today's education system is more geared on the final result ie. grades, correct answers, etc. rather than the process used to get there. I feel if the process is taught, eventually the results will follow. Teach them how to solve problems and many problems will get solved. Teach them the solution to one problem and only one problem will get solved.


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Math has a way of explaining things in a very definite matter, and getting there it uses a good amount of (what I feel are) assumed facts.




Yes.  But you see, you need to begin _somewhere_.  At some point you have to assume that something is true.  In mathematics, this is called an axiom.  Every formal logical system needs them.

It is entirely possble to choose axioms which lead to maths that don't describe anything in our real world.  However, it is easy enough to pick them so that the math does describe what we see.  Right now, though, nobody can tell you _why_ those particular axioms are what work for us.  They are a given of the Universe.  You must simply accept that they are what do the trick.

As an example - at the basis of the number system we use is an axiom which can be stated many different ways, but they all equate to "The empty set exists".  There is no way to _prove_ it exists, it must be assumed.  The only consolation we can offer is that this assumption leads to the existance fo the computer you type on - not proof that it is true, but reasonably good evidence 



> I just don't think everything in the universe can be explained off by numbers




Actually, mathematics has _proven_ that.  Kurt Godel proved that within any formal logical system with a finite list of axioms, there will exist true statements that _cannot_ be proven within the system.  That is equivalent to saying that not everything in the Universe can be explained off by numbers. 

Mind you, the fact that this is true does not mean that a great many things in the Universe can be explained of by numbers.  Godel's work is not an excuse for intellectual lazyness.  The stuff they teach you in trig, geometry and calculus are well within the realm of things that can be proven, no matter how you dislike it


----------



## resistor (Nov 23, 2004)

One of the biggest problems I see is that people are unable to generalize knowledge.  If you know how to solve one problem, you need to be able to use that solution to help your solve a similar problem.

For instance, in my Discrete Math class we learned to solve Chinese Remainder Theorem systems of equations.  On the test, the professor asked us to solve system that, instead of having values, had A, B, and C.  And half the people, who are all quite intelligent people, freaked out and could not solve it because they could not generalize the solution from what we'd done before to this similar but different problem.

I've seen similar problems in language, another topic generally considered "hard."  I have known students who did well in English (even grammar-intensive courses) but could not grasp the concept of a Latin dative (dative = indirect object).

Languages, like math, have to be generalized, and this generalization seems to be something that a lot of people just aren't good at.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 23, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Yes.  But you see, you need to begin _somewhere_.  At some point you have to assume that something is true.  In mathematics, this is called an axiom.  Every formal logical system needs them.




...and that is the problem with logic! Why can't we all just be crazy and chaotic? 



> Actually, mathematics has _proven_ that.  Kurt Godel proved that within any formal logical system with a finite list of axioms, there will exist true statements that _cannot_ be proven within the system.  That is equivalent to saying that not everything in the Universe can be explained off by numbers.
> 
> Mind you, the fact that this is true does not mean that a great many things in the Universe can be explained of by numbers.  Godel's work is not an excuse for intellectual lazyness.  The stuff they teach you in trig, geometry and calculus are well within the realm of things that can be proven, no matter how you dislike it




Curses! That's not fair! Ah well. I can do the important stuff for day to day life, and even though I may not like it, sometimes you just need certain things no matter what. I think I'm just spiteful that I only had one teacher in High School that would at least admit to us that there were far more things going on that 'just because'.


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## EricNoah (Nov 23, 2004)

I'm not bad at math, but I was horrible at taking the timed math tests.  Just give me a couple of minutes to think, please!  And like many I find subtraction harder than addition.  

I think my problems may stem from how I visualize the number line.  It's not, shall we say, particularly straight and doesn't lend itself to arithmetic.  (See attached).  You don't want to know where the negative numbers disappear to.  Also this isn't strictly accurate -- I don't see this "head on" -- I'm sort of looking at it at an angle when I'm visualizing numbers.  

My dad's numberline visualization is more of a corkscrew with the low numbers in the center.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Nov 23, 2004)

Don't laugh, but I can say without qualification that math has been the single most emotionally painful thing in my life (lucky, I know). I've broken down in tears many times over it, and fairly severely damaged myself in frustration. I don't know what it is about math, because I'm pretty smart; I get borderline genius results on all the intelligence tests I've ever taken, including one administered by a professional psychologist (or psychiatrist, I don't know). I can see that to some people, math is a beautiful and elegant thing, but I just can't see it. I can do low-level problems in my head, and I love proofs, but I just don't get most math. It took me 3 years to finish Algebra 1, and at 17 I still haven't gotten all the way through 2.


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## Hypersmurf (Nov 23, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I think my problems may stem from how I visualize the number line.  It's not, shall we say, particularly straight and doesn't lend itself to arithmetic.  (See attached).




...!

-Hyp.


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## EricNoah (Nov 23, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> ...!
> 
> -Hyp.



Oh it's even worse than that...

In my head the numbers are white and float on an infinite black void.  The numbers 1-10 gently slope upwards a bit.  I generally look at the numbers at an angle with 1 or 20 right in front of me and numbers 2-10 gently slope upwards to my left.  

Also I can rotate my "camera" but only to a limited degree.  

Up into the 100s I stop really "seeing" each individual number.  My camera "stops" around 100 but I can see big blocks of numbers (each representing a hundred).  Then even further in the distance (and turning to the left again) I can see blocks of 1000 ... and then that gets very fuzzy though I can see the spot where a million starts.

Oddly enough, I can then take my camera right to 1 million and see big chunks representing millions and billions.  But again if I "look" too close it goes a bit fuzzy.  

I know there's gotta be someone else out there who sees numbers in some strange way....


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## tarchon (Nov 23, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Actually, mathematics has _proven_ that.  Kurt Godel proved that within any formal logical system with a finite list of axioms, there will exist true statements that _cannot_ be proven within the system.  That is equivalent to saying that not everything in the Universe can be explained off by numbers.



Certain properties have to be present in a formal system for Gödel's Theorem to apply.  There are some in which all propositions are decidable.


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## Sebastian Francis (Nov 23, 2004)

Christopher Lambert said:
			
		

> I'm good at biology and terrible at math. They're only related if you have to do statistics, and fortunately probability was one of those few math areas I was good at.




There are people who will say that biology is not a "real" science, that the only "real" sciences are physics and perhaps cosmology.   

I don't agree, mind you, but I've heard this before from physics-heads.


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## Wereserpent (Nov 23, 2004)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> There are people who will say that biology is not a "real" science, that the only "real" sciences are physics and perhaps cosmology.
> 
> I don't agree, mind you, but I've heard this before from physics-heads.




Hmmm, I suppose the reason for that being most people think of a scientists as someone who is a Physicist type, I know that is the stereotypical image I got in my head when I was younger.  Anyways I took a Geometry test today, and I think I did fairly well on it.  

We did some Trigonometry stuff before and it was easy for me, but that could be because we could use our calculators for Sine Cosine and Tangent.


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## James Heard (Nov 24, 2004)

I've never had so much a problem with math as a problem with math instructors. I don't learn things by rote, I learn things for what they're for and what they're to do. Bad math instructors trying to teach things by memorization and for no apparent purpose ruined any desire to do math for years until I went back to college. Math isn't hard, it's just sitting through awful math classes that's hard.


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## Angcuru (Nov 24, 2004)

I despise the study of mathematics.  I appreciate what OTHER PEOPLE can do with it to help me, but once I am directly involved I feel like taking a sledge to . . . something mathematical.  

For me, the difficulty is in remembering all of those damnable FORMULAS.  Throughout my academic career, Mathematical subjects are the only ones that I have not gotten consistent A/B scores in.  

Do a Psychological analysis of Joseph Stalin and Napoleon Bonaparte?  Sure thing.

Write a flawless twenty page essay on some obscure subject I've never heard about?  No sweat.

Argue other people into the ground over philosophical matters?  Cake.

Math with letters?  Kill me now.

There is no arguing or logic in math.  It just is.  There is only one answer, and if you are five billionths of a decimal off, you're still wrong.  You still fail.  And the professor looks at you like you're glowing hot pink in the middle of the sahara desert wearing a sailor suit and doing the electric slide.  Bastards.


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## Dakkareth (Nov 24, 2004)

> The most common reason that people suck at math, or at least aren't better at it ...
> ... is that the first thing most people learn about math is that it's hard. The second thing they learn is that it's ugly.




I couldn't agree more.

Though I'm biased of course, being who I am and having the parents that I have. Predisposition probably plays some role, but education is imo the bigger factor. If you grow up learning, that math is about adding big numbers, you're hardly motivated to do the harder stuff. If you grow up learning about the interesting things hiding just below the surface of standard math, it's way different.


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## Umbran (Nov 24, 2004)

tarchon said:
			
		

> Certain properties have to be present in a formal system for Gödel's Theorem to apply.  There are some in which all propositions are decidable.




Yes, but the "some" do not include things like elementary arithmetic, or any system within which elementary arithmetic can be developed.  Systems that cannot describe our current Universe need not apply


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## Umbran (Nov 24, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> ...and that is the problem with logic! Why can't we all just be crazy and chaotic?




Because crazy and chaotic doesn't get wheat to the mill, and bread baked, and computers built.  We are lucky to live in a society rich enough that we can afford to have a few loons around, because they enrich our lives.  However, the loons need to be thankful for all the linear people who make their looniness possible.


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## dvvega (Nov 24, 2004)

As someone who tutors mathematics to highschool students, I have found the biggest hurdle for most of them is that they don't really understand mathematics in a real context.

I was taught my multiplication tables by rote learning (repeat, remember, repeat). This helped me learn NOTHING. Not until one particular teacher said look ... and physically showed me how multiplication worked.

I took this lesson to heart and now teach that way. Show how maths fits into the real world. The light bulb goes on and they love maths after that.


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## Algolei (Nov 24, 2004)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> Don't laugh, but I can say without qualification that math has been the single most emotionally painful thing in my life (lucky, I know). I've broken down in tears many times over it, and fairly severely damaged myself in frustration. I don't know what it is about math, because I'm pretty smart; I get borderline genius results on all the intelligence tests I've ever taken, including one administered by a professional psychologist (or psychiatrist, I don't know). I can see that to some people, math is a beautiful and elegant thing, but I just can't see it. I can do low-level problems in my head, and I love proofs, but I just don't get most math. It took me 3 years to finish Algebra 1, and at 17 I still haven't gotten all the way through 2.



Hey, that sounds so much like me and English.  I failed grade 12 English twice, but I passed the test to qualify for Mensa (that high IQ society everyone makes fun of, including me).  People reading novels and "seeing" things that I just don't see--gah!  Makes no sense to me.  "Why did Iago hate Othello?"  Hey, that's easy!  'Cause Iago was the bad guy!

...and Algolei scores another F....


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## Wereserpent (Nov 24, 2004)

Another reason I brought this up was because I have to pass the exit level state standardized test in the spring.  I do fine on all the subjects but math.  It sucks that I have math right now, because by the time the test comes around I will have forgotten everything.


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## Tanager (Nov 24, 2004)

While natural aptitude plays a part I think education or experience (particularly early education) and self perception plays a bigger role. A case in point:

In highschool I dated a girl who absolutely sucked at math, I mean she did really poorly. By our graduating year (grade 11 in these parts) she was doing grade 9 math for the third time. She wasn't stupid, she just could not, for the life of her do it. Or so it seemed.

One day we were talking about it and she was telling me that she had always been bad at math, she even got out her old report cards from primary school to prove it. Sure enough, every single one of them said, in one way or another "has trouble with math".

The problem was that she had become conviced that this was true and that she couldn't do it. And no one had taken the time to explain to her that she could.

So, we're in grade 11, we both switched to a new school and a friend and I begin to tutor her. By early december her math grades rise from teens and twenties to seventies and eighties. She starts to 'get it' she even starts to enjoy it.

Sadly, christmas break rolls around and while we're out of school she slips back into old habits and goes back to her 'I can't do math' mindset, despite all evidence to the contrary. She refuses to even let my friend and I try to tutor her anymore and basically washes her hands of it completely.


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## Thanee (Nov 24, 2004)

There's a difference in learning math and understanding math, tho. It's certainly possible to learn math to a degree, that you are good in school, but I doubt it's possible to learn it to high enough levels to study math at university, unless you have at least a certain talent.

 Usually (from my experience) when people, who are not good at it, learn math, they learn specific examples, and they can solve those and others, which are very similar, but as soon as the problem to solve looks completely different (but in fact uses the same underlying mechanics to solve), they fail.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Christopher Lambert (Nov 24, 2004)

Simon Collins said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I'm a psychology graduate and I have to disagree that there is only one factor behind why people are good or bad at maths. I think it's a mixture of at least two major influences on the brain:
> 1. Nature/Genetics - people are born with a natural proclivity to make the most of certain areas of their brain, which relate to different skills.
> 2. Nurture/Experience - when we're naturally good at something, we tend to spend more time doing it and vice versa. If we're criticised in school or at home for being bad at a particular skill, that influences both our willingness to spend more time doing it, and the openness of our mind to taking on board new ways of thinking and doing.




I had a similar experience. In grade 5 I was in an alternative learning program, so of course I focused on science and left math behind. In grade 12 I found if I "doubled" the amount of effort in subjects, I could increase my biology mark by 7%, math by 2% and English by 0%. Needless to say, at cruch time, which subject is the best study?



			
				Bolen said:
			
		

> I have no idea how someone who likes RPGs can hate math. To me math is the backbone of what the game is. How can you remember all the illogical rules (attacks of opp., what the bonus is to save vs fear ect.) and not understand the beauty of mathmatics. That makes no sense to me.




It makes sense to me. Those are very simple mathematical operations. No one is making you figure out the longest ladder you can take around a corner of a certain dimension in the game.


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## Achan hiArusa (Nov 24, 2004)

*Factoring*

die_kluge:  Is showing a fourier series really worth two kicks in the junk and loss of your wallet?  Actually I think I started having problems when I started doing proofs.  I can do mechanical math all day long (would you believe for about an hour before I want to play Starcraft).  My real problem with mathematics was that when the homework wasn't required I didn't do it.

The easy way to factor (scroll down if the abstractness makes your head want to explode):

If you have an equation of the for ax^2 + bx + c = 0 first you divide by a to get

x^2 + (b/a)x + c/a = 0, we will rename b/a =d and c/a = e for simplicity to get

x^2 + dx + e = 0.  Then you find two numbers f and g such that f + g = d and

f * g = e.  Then your solution will be (x + f)(x + g) = 0.

In short, if you don't have a number in front of your x^2 term then just find two numbers that add to the number in front of your x term and multiply to get you last term.  If you do have a number in front of your x^2 term divide every term by that number and then find the two numbers.

So for x^2 + 4x + 4 = 0 we find two numbers that add to equal 4 and two numbers that multiply to equal 4, which in this case is 2 (yes I picked a trivial example) so our solution is (x + 2)(x + 2) = 0.


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## Angcuru (Nov 24, 2004)

Achan hiArusa said:
			
		

> The easy way to factor (scroll down if the abstractness makes your head want to explode):
> 
> If you have an equation of the for ax^2 + bx + c = 0 first you divide by a to get
> 
> ...



Ow.


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## Scribble (Nov 24, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Usually (from my experience) when people, who are not good at it, learn math, they learn specific examples, and they can solve those and others, which are very similar, but as soon as the problem to solve looks completely different (but in fact uses the same underlying mechanics to solve), they fail.




That's exactly how I was/am with math. I would read the explanantion, and understand it, look at the example and understand it, then they'd hit me with an actual problem and I'd stare at it forever wondering what psycho thought this problem actually had anything to do with the example above... 

Just never seemed to "click" as they say.


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## Christopher Lambert (Nov 25, 2004)

Achan hiArusa said:
			
		

> die_kluge:  Is showing a fourier series really worth two kicks in the junk and loss of your wallet?  Actually I think I started having problems when I started doing proofs.  I can do mechanical math all day long (would you believe for about an hour before I want to play Starcraft).  My real problem with mathematics was that when the homework wasn't required I didn't do it.
> 
> The easy way to factor (scroll down if the abstractness makes your head want to explode):
> 
> ...




Well, they _told_ me this was the easy way, but they never showed me this formula. It's only a little longer than the quadratic formula.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 25, 2004)

Christopher Lambert said:
			
		

> Well, they _told_ me this was the easy way, but they never showed me this formula. It's only a little longer than the quadratic formula.



 ...the easy way is getting a nice graphic calculater and just plugging in the formula and hitting the 'Factor' button


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## John Q. Mayhem (Nov 25, 2004)

Amen, brother.


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## Hanuman (Nov 25, 2004)

God I sucked at Maths! I felt like I had entered the fifth layer of hell every time I had a class. That is until I found I could put a dollar sign in front of any math. Lo and behold the clouds parted and I went from mathematical autism to doing moderately well.
The strange thing is that my son (now six) is truly gifted at maths. He is performing at a 10 year old level and getting better all the time...........sigh (proud but slightly jealous).

Funny ol world innit.


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## Tetsubo (Nov 25, 2004)

I, am bad at math. Always have been. I find it frustrating. I actually encounter a need for math fairly regularly. 

One thing I noticed back in High School. I was very bad at algebra but I enjoyed geometry. I had a math teacher (dating my mother) tell me that that is common. If you think well in algebra you don't deal with geometry well and vice versa.

I am also a bad speller though I have a large verbal vocabulary and know how to use it.

OK, it just seems that my brain is faulty...


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## tarchon (Nov 25, 2004)

"Math is hard!" - Barbie


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## Impeesa (Nov 26, 2004)

In my experience, which seems to agree with many others', people just refuse to think. However, this isn't as incomprehensible as some hardcore logical scientist types make it out to be. It's human nature, when confronted with something new, to look for opinions in three places: previous experience, someone else's word, and actual deduction - in that order. Say there's a movie playing, and I want to form an opinion on it. If I liked the last one in the series, I'll assume I'll like this one until proven otherwise. If there's no track record to go on, I'll ask a friend who saw it, and trust their opinion until proven otherwise. Eventually, I might actually see the movie, at which point I'll form an opinion on my own. But here's another example: when I looked at the picture of an equation that die_kluge posted on the first page, my thought process went something like this:

1) I do not understand that.
2) That is insane. I hate you.
3) Wait, there's nothing really crazy there. Maybe I can recognize some of it.
4) Hm, sum of sine waves, with some arbitrary but related amplitudes, frequencies, and phase shifts. Maybe some kind of harmonic structure, or some random Fourier series.

Now, the first two steps are based on simple deduction. Upon reaching step three, though - analogous to anyone being introduced to an unfamiliar math concept - it is easier to trust popular opinion (math is hard, it's okay to not get it). It's higher up on the hierarchy than looking at it and thinking about it for a minute. Some people are willing to invest a little extra mental effort for the sake of curiosity or completeness, whatever motivates them - others won't bother, and will just become frustrated that there's no easier way over the hump.

--Impeesa--


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## Heretic Apostate (Nov 26, 2004)

I rate in the top 2% of people in the nation in math.  I've tutored math off and on for about ten years.  I can do most lower-level math (say, up to about midway through first-year calculus) in my head.

What does this mean?  A whole lot of nothing.

The fact that I was the best student in math the year I graduated, out of the thousand graduating seniors in my county, just meant that I was _average_ as a math major.  I struggled to keep my scores above a B average, because while I was good at the applied mathematics, I absolutely sucked at the theoretical stuff.  (I still want to go back and retry calculus of complex numbers, though it seemed more of an art form than a science...  If anyone knows of a decent, in-print textbook, let me know at napamathguy at yahoo.com, okay?)

Different people are good at different things.  That doesn't mean I'm smarter than most of the people I know, it just means that I'm better in one area, while worse than a lot of people in other areas...


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## Wereserpent (Nov 26, 2004)

Impeesa said:
			
		

> In my experience, which seems to agree with many others', people just refuse to think. However, this isn't as incomprehensible as some hardcore logical scientist types make it out to be. It's human nature, when confronted with something new, to look for opinions in three places: previous experience, someone else's word, and actual deduction - in that order. Say there's a movie playing, and I want to form an opinion on it. If I liked the last one in the series, I'll assume I'll like this one until proven otherwise. If there's no track record to go on, I'll ask a friend who saw it, and trust their opinion until proven otherwise. Eventually, I might actually see the movie, at which point I'll form an opinion on my own. But here's another example: when I looked at the picture of an equation that die_kluge posted on the first page, my thought process went something like this:
> 
> 1) I do not understand that.
> 2) That is insane. I hate you.
> ...




Hmm, I thinkt hat is very true.  I was basically told that it was in the family line(even though I am adopted) to be bad at math.  My father being the exception.


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## Brennin Magalus (Nov 26, 2004)

Anyone who complains that "math is too hard" needs to be given copies of Walter Rudin's _Principles of Mathematical Analysis_ and Gerald Folland's _Real Analysis : Modern Techniques and Their Applications_.


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## WayneLigon (Nov 26, 2004)

I did terrible in high school math. I made D-minuses and those probably because they did not want to outright fail me since I did well in everything else. The trouble started in 4rth and 5th grade when I had a teacher that, looking back on it later, was very probably crazy to some degree. I 'lost' those years and that was when we did a lot of basics that I never 'got' afterwards. I had tutors for the last four years of high school and all they did was basically keep me from failing outright, save for geometry which I liked and did well in.

Strange that in college I got a C taking the same stuff for the 'basic math' part, then I had a lot of statistics courses since I was in business and IS; I got A's on those. To get out of the program, I had to take Intro to Calculus, and I got a high B in that. So I'm not sure what shook loose, save that most of the examples and problems seemed to have more application. Not sure.


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## Christopher Lambert (Nov 28, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> ...the easy way is getting a nice graphic calculater and just plugging in the formula and hitting the 'Factor' button




Those aren't allowed in tests, however.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> In my experience, which seems to agree with many others', people just refuse to think.




That's more than a little insulting, don't you think? There's a reason why more people have trouble with math than other subjects, even people who do think, which is pretty much everybody.



			
				Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> I rate in the top 2% of people in the nation in math. I've tutored math off and on for about ten years. I can do most lower-level math (say, up to about midway through first-year calculus) in my head.
> 
> What does this mean? A whole lot of nothing.




I thinki I got an 83 percentile in math when I did the PSAT. Again, it didn't mean a thing.



			
				Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> Anyone who complains that "math is too hard" needs to be given copies of Walter Rudin's Principles of Mathematical Analysis and Gerald Folland's Real Analysis : Modern Techniques and Their Applications.




Why aren't these books available in schools?


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## Heretic Apostate (Nov 28, 2004)

Christopher Lambert said:
			
		

> Why aren't these books available in schools?



I checked on Amazon, and the latest edition of the first book was something like the mid 80s (unless I was missing something...).

Which would make it odd if it WAS still available for classes.  Most classroom textbooks are redone every couple of years, to limit the used-book market (excuse me, I meant to say, "to keep the subject material relevant"...).


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 28, 2004)

Christopher Lambert said:
			
		

> Those aren't allowed in tests, however.




At both High Schools I went to, they were. Of course, I don't know if most of the teachers knew that they had 'Factor' built in, but we were GIVEN calculators for nearly every test.


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## madelf (Nov 29, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> In my head the numbers are white and float on an infinite black void. The numbers 1-10 gently slope upwards a bit. I generally look at the numbers at an angle with 1 or 20 right in front of me and numbers 2-10 gently slope upwards to my left.



You... see... ....math.

*backs away slowly*
You're scaring me.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 29, 2004)

Math wouldn't be quite so hard if they'd just tell you what x equals up front.


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## madelf (Nov 29, 2004)

There is also a condition that can make math a bitch, called dyscalculia. It's just like Dyslexia, except that you switch numbers.

I've never been diagnosed, but I suspect I have a slight touch of it (I nail most of the common symptoms, though it's not severe). I'm forever swapping digits in phone numbers & if I'm doing an important calculation (even at the level of simply adding a few numbers) I'll need to check it a couple times to make sure it keeps coming out the same. It really sucked back in the old days when I was doing architectural drawings without a computer to automatically generate the dimensioning. Sometimes I'd have to add up a single dimension string a half dozen times (or more) to get all the errors out.

You can imagine what I went through in math classes. I never made it past geometry & I passed that only by the skin of my teeth. To this day I can't do even simple math in my head (like adding or subtracting double digits), it all has to be on paper.


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## Impeesa (Nov 29, 2004)

Christopher Lambert said:
			
		

> That's more than a little insulting, don't you think? There's a reason why more people have trouble with math than other subjects, even people who do think, which is pretty much everybody.




You'd be surprised, actually. I'd hazard a guess that yes, there's a reason more people have trouble with math than with other subjects - and that reason is, people tell them it's hard and it's okay not to get it. Problem is, then they don't think about it, and it becomes self-fulfilling. In younger kids, it's more obvious. I have a 12 year old brother and sister who are being homeschooled this year. They are both smart kids (okay, maybe my brother moreso than my sister). Both of them absolutely refuse to think for themselves. They will do whole worksheets wrong, or refuse to even comprehend what the question is even asking (this extends to more than just math). If you can get either of them to calm down long enough to think rationally about it, they have no problems at all doing it on their own, but they'd rather just stab in the dark and hope it saves them time and thinking.

In high school, I had a friend who had a great deal of trouble with physics 11/12. I could never figure out why, he's definitely a smart person (he's in pre-med now). One day he came back and said the last assignment was really easy, because he'd asked his dad for some help. His dad is also a smart guy (chemical engineer), and he helped my friend break it down a little - the first step in thinking logically through a problem. 

And I don't have just second-hand anecdotes, either. Over four years of university physics and computer science, I have grades ranging from D to A depending on whether I took a little time at some point to think through the course material. I know first-hand the difference in end results after actively thinking about the material, or spinning my wheels looking for shortcuts and trying to avoid work. It really is a conscious choice - some people just don't realize they have more options. Once they're there, it does take more thinking for some people than for others, I realize that. But once you get to thinking, it's hard not to reach your goal eventually.

--Impeesa--


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## cignus_pfaccari (Nov 29, 2004)

madelf said:
			
		

> You... see... ....math.
> 
> *backs away slowly*
> You're scaring me.




I've heard of something like that, where people see certain letters in one color and others in another.  I forget what it's called.

I've forgotten most of the math I learned in high school and college, but I learned then not to be afraid of math and numbers.  I learned how to do math in my head in Academic Team for several reasons (mostly because the pencil slowed me down, and this was Quick Recall), which apparently blew the mind of people in my high school chemistry class (which also involved math, in balancing equations).  I'm also the one my managers at work go to when they need numbers crunched.

And, geekiest of all, one night in high school when I'd gone to bed, I figured out that the difference between two adjacent numbers' squares equals the sum of the two numbers.  (4^2=16, 5^2=25, 25-16=9, which is 4+5, for example)  I'm reasonably sure I hadn't seen this in class before, and it was useful in Academic Team.

Brad


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## John Q. Mayhem (Nov 29, 2004)

It's called synesthesia, and it isn't just seeing letters and words as colours. I wish I had it. The _synesthete_ power in XPH is based on it.


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## EricNoah (Nov 29, 2004)

madelf said:
			
		

> You... see... ....math.
> 
> *backs away slowly*
> You're scaring me.



*laughs*

I also see dead people, but that's a different story. 

Oddly enough, I also ascribe personalities to different numerals (just 0-9).  In general, odd numerals are "mean" and even numbers are "nice."  5 isn't too mean though; and 2 and 0 are the "nicest" of the nice numerals.  I think it has to do with (at some point early on) thinking that even numbers are easier to add and subtract than odd numbers.


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## Blue_Kryptonite (Nov 29, 2004)

madelf said:
			
		

> There is also a condition that can make math a bitch, called dyscalculia. It's just like Dyslexia, except that you switch numbers.




Diagnosed, here. It is indeed an added challenge to my other physical abnormalities.



			
				John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> It's called synesthesia, and it isn't just seeing letters and words as colours. I wish I had it. The _synesthete_ power in XPH is based on it.




That one, too. And yes, you do.  Not only do I not understand how most people function being Blinddeaf (Not being able to hear the tones colours make) or unable to track scents by colour, etc, but it made me able to pass math with a C despite the dyscalculia. I could always listen for the pure tone when the equation was right.


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## Eridanis (Nov 29, 2004)

I almost always get strange looks from people when I explain that I did a double major in math and theatre in college. To me, the two disciplines are closely related: both are very creative arts, each with its own set of rules. A difference being, math rules are able to codified and expanded upon, while theatre rules are meant to be ba-roken! I think Umbran spoke to this very well.

The talk about synthesia is very interesting. I remember that as a boy, I would think of things in such a fashion (for instance, I always associated the route numbers of the highways near my home with characters from the Flintstones - a show I rarely saw, BTW). As I went through school, I lost that ability as I tried to rely on logic and memorization, but it never quite left me completely. I'll have to think about this some more.


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## EricNoah (Nov 29, 2004)

Synesthesia, eh?  Great to have a word for it!  I caught this quote:




> ...phenomena such as the assignment of a personalities or moods to numbers. ...the spatial extent of synesthesia including "number forms" and other mental maps in which a variety of information may be spatially organized, in an idiosyncratic yet consistent manner (e.g., peculiar time or number lines).



Which is totally me -- particularly the time lines too.  I'd totally forgotten about that -- I see my whole life, in years, as on my twisted number line.  One year is viewed as months -- imagine an oval racetrack, with January at about 9 o'clock, march at about 7 o'clock, etc.  Each "side" of the oval is a different season.  The months are not "even" in size -- some are abnormally large or small.  I think this results in me having some disappointments about how long certain winter months are dragging on, or being surprised that September, for example, isn't this huge long month.  

A week, likewise, is an oval, but kind of elongated.  Monday thru Friday on the sides and bottom, and the weekend along the top edge.  In my mind a weekend is as long as a week!


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## Storminator (Nov 30, 2004)

I think a lot of the problem is the abyssmal way mathematics is taught (at least in America). You learn almost as much in freshman algebra as you've learned up to that point... think about that.

 Algebra should be finished by 6th grade (at the latest!), so kids can get on to more interesting things earlier. It'll make those science classes much easier too. 

 As an aside, I used to tutor physics. I had completed my college physics classes, and I was tutoring folks that hadn't done trig (HS physics). I was  appalled at how much harder it was. Every time I would have taken a derivative or integral, I had to remember and apply some cumbersome formula AND remember which formula was which. Nightmare.

 PS


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