# Dragon 353 came early!



## Zaukrie (Feb 9, 2007)

I've not read much yet, but the new minis previewed for DDM are dire lion and Blood Golem of Hextor and another picture of the large black dragon.

I'll post more later, when my wife isn't hovering wanting to talk to me  

Oh, the modrons return in 354, core beliefs Heironius, ecology of Kopru


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## joshhg (Feb 9, 2007)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> Oh, the modrons return in 354



Primus demands more input from this source.
.
.
.
.
.
_Please?_


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## NiTessine (Feb 9, 2007)

1. Dire lion? Didn't we get that back in Dragoneye?

2. MODRONS! ZOMGWTFROTFLMAOBBQ! This is the happiest day of my life! They're back! They're BACK! WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!


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## Zaukrie (Feb 9, 2007)

I'll do the Modron thing, and then I'm off (the scans of the minis will be on Hordelings)

"After a lengthy isolation, the modrons march again! Venture to Reulus, the home city of these whimsical beings of perfect law, encounter the six most numerous types of modron, and explore the planes as a rogue modron PC."

there is a preivew for Monsternomicon II and the new Talisman game.

The computer article previews a PSP game, D&D Tactics.


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## joshhg (Feb 9, 2007)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> I'll do the Modron thing, and then I'm off (the scans of the minis will be on Hordelings)
> 
> "After a lengthy isolation, the modrons march again! Venture to Reulus, the home city of these whimsical beings of perfect law, encounter the six most numerous types of modron, and explore the planes as a rogue modron PC."
> 
> ...



Primus extendes our gratiude.
 
*Does the Robot*


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## mhacdebhandia (Feb 9, 2007)

That's fantastic news! Please, take your time to preview the magazine thoroughly.


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## Shemeska (Feb 10, 2007)

Early is right! *grin*


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## Pants (Feb 10, 2007)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> Zaukrie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2007)

Answer insufficient.  Please provide more information!


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## Tomovasky (Feb 10, 2007)

man and I just got my new dungeon(144)...


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## joshhg (Feb 10, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Answer insufficient.  Please provide more information!




ERROR: Resource Incompleate.
Time to compleated analyst: Twenty-Nine Wholes, Ninty Tenths, Fifty-Seven hundrenths, Three thousandths, and Twenty-Four millionths.


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## Shroomy (Feb 10, 2007)

Return of the Modrons!  My desire for 354 now supercedes my desire for 353, and I love Demonomicon articles.


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## Nightfall (Feb 10, 2007)

Josh,

Some of us want more info. 

Boz,

I would like a tad more detail about Dragon 353, especially since I want to know how much detail they covered in the Demon Queen of Succubi.


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## joshhg (Feb 10, 2007)

Yeah, so would I, but the lawful side of me (a really tinny side) knows it ain't happening for a while
Also



			
				Zaukrie said:
			
		

> these whimsical beings of perfect law



 Modron: Objection- _whimsical_ is #245 of Words that Do Not Apply To Modrons. Please comply to code


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## Nightfall (Feb 10, 2007)

Josh,

True they aren't whismical. But they do LOOK it.  

And hey I can dream about getting more info huh?


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## Shemeska (Feb 10, 2007)

*[Keeper]"You have information..."[/Keeper]*

The Keepers must be getting to people who got the magazine early!


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## Nightfall (Feb 10, 2007)

Shem,

Probably. I was watching the Grudge tonight. Maybe that's what happened with Dragon 353.


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## Razz (Feb 10, 2007)

Wait wait wait...

Did I read that correctly?!

MODRONS!?!?!

I think I am going to pee myself...

So the six most common modrons? Hmm...there's 14 total...so that leaves 8...

Please tell me the other 8 will be presented in the near future?! Someone from Dragon let us know!

As for the OP, more info on this issue   Tell us about Malcanthet, Class Acts, and the Forgotten Realms article, and the Elemental Princes of Good!


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## |)ar|{ (Feb 10, 2007)

I have a friend who is a talisman nut.  If you don't mind checking can you tell me whos making it?

Thanks
Dark


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## frankthedm (Feb 10, 2007)

Kopru mmmmm...

Looks like Paizohawk is steadily becoming Mystara 

Bargle [basic box]
Lost city [b4]
Isle of dread [x1]

Perhaps the next adventure path will center on Hule?


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## dargoth3 (Feb 10, 2007)

Zaukrie
can you tell us about the FR article in 353?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 10, 2007)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> I'll do the Modron thing, and then I'm off (the scans of the minis will be on Hordelings)




I got your images right here.


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## NiTessine (Feb 10, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> So the six most common modrons? Hmm...there's 14 total...so that leaves 8...
> 
> Please tell me the other 8 will be presented in the near future?! Someone from Dragon let us know!



The tertian, which I don't think is among the common modrons, is in Dungeon #144, which is apparently the March 2007 issue.


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## Razz (Feb 10, 2007)

So that's 7 down and 7 to go...half the modrons down.

Unless the tertian is in Dragon #353, which I hope not, cause we'll be back to 6 modrons again.


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## delericho (Feb 10, 2007)

|)ar|{ said:
			
		

> I have a friend who is a talisman nut.  If you don't mind checking can you tell me whos making it?




Games Workshop's Black Industries studio (The same people for whom Green Ronin developed the new WFRP). The preview mentions that the new release has new art and optional quick-play rules, but that otherwise little has changed. It also says there is no word about whether the old supplements will be reprinted. It makes no mention of new supplements.

I, too, received Dragon this morning. Alas, I don't have time to read it just now, as I still have two Dungeon magazines to read first.


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2007)

Would someone who has issue #353 actually post about it and stop teasing the rest of us?     

heh.  you know, oddly enough, a Modron article would have made more sense with the "Outer Planes" theme than one about the archomentals.    but having the Modron in next month's issue makes it almost a guarantee sale for me, so that's two in a row, which is just fine.  

for those who don't know, the modron hierarchy is as follows:  
Monodrone-->Duodrone-->Tidrone-->Quadrone-->Pentadrone-->Decaton-->
Nonaton-->Octon-->Septon-->Hexton-->Quinton-->Quarton-->Tertian-->Secundus-->
Primus.  



			
				frankthedm said:
			
		

> Looks like Paizohawk is steadily becoming Mystara




nothing wrong with that!  Mystara is just as much of a classic setting as Greyhawk.  While Greyhawk has been the red-headed stepchild for years, Mystara is basically the black sheep of the family!  it's good to see both settings getting attention!



			
				Razz said:
			
		

> So that's 7 down and 7 to go...half the modrons down.
> 
> Unless the tertian is in Dragon #353, which I hope not, cause we'll be back to 6 modrons again.




maybe the rest of the modrons will be presented in some future issue... with the slaad lords?    hey, a fella can dream, right?


anyway - enough about the future, let's talk about the present!  someone clue us in on what's in #353!

_Spaces brought to you by your friendly neighborhood mods!_


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## megamania (Feb 10, 2007)

Beautiful.

Issue should be here within the week then.    

Doing the Jonni Bravo Monkey Dance


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## Zarnam (Feb 10, 2007)

Malcaaanthet, Maaalcaaanthet, Malcantheeeeeet


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 10, 2007)

Zarnam said:
			
		

> Malcaaanthet, Maaalcaaanthet, Malcantheeeeeet




The cover's showing her, and is quite nice. Plus, there is another picture of her, with an angel kneeling in front of her. Seems she's doing her job well!


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2007)

was the incubus converted for that article?


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## Kobold Avenger (Feb 10, 2007)

And aren't incubi just succubi?  Identical stats except that they're male.


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## Cam Banks (Feb 10, 2007)

There is indeed an incubus in the article. Nice artwork!

Cheers,
Cam


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2007)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> And aren't incubi just succubi?  Identical stats except that they're male.




they're very similar, but do have some distinct differences.  they were originally statted in Dragon #54, in which they had more HD, a faster speed, energy drain on a claw attack (instead of kiss), but they lack the charm, suggestion, and detect thoughts of a succubus.

don't know if James converted from that source or came up with something of his own, though.

http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=896


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 10, 2007)

Incubi are apparently not as powerful as succubi, as their CR is only 3 (and, among other things, their Cha is only 20, the ugly brutes)


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2007)

then they probably weren't converted from the ones in Dragon #54, which is perfectly fine.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 10, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> for those who don't know, the modron hierarchy is as follows:



Please stick in a space or three. Side-scrolling sucks.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 10, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Kopru mmmmm...
> 
> Looks like Paizohawk is steadily becoming Mystara
> 
> ...



I'd rather it started at Karameikos, swung through the Broken Lands on the way to Glantri, and then headed into the icy north. That's really the only sort of environment we haven't seen in an Adventure Path. Once there, of course, it'd be down in through the hole at the pole and into the Hollow World.


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## James Jacobs (Feb 10, 2007)

The incubus in the Malcanthet article is more or less a brand new critter, even though it's certainly not the only time they've appeared in D&D (or d20, for that matter). This incubus is a weaker version of the Monster Manual succubus, but unlike succubi (as they're depicted in the Monster Manual, at least), these incubi generally advance via class levels.

The article talks a little bit about what makes an incubus different from a succubus in male form, but the gist is that succubi use seduction while incubi use force to do their thing.


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## Razz (Feb 11, 2007)

Yes, all these people that have the magazine but can't divulge its secrets. Don't be such a tease!   

So, James, any news you can give us on when we can see the other half of the modrons? Sometime soon, I hope.


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## Shemeska (Feb 11, 2007)

Whoever posts the table of contents of this issue first, I'll buy a drink for at GenCon this year. I want to see what all is in this issue given the theme, and I'm in a generous mood (or fuzzy minded from low blood sugar, one of the two, so take advantage of the situation regardless).

And Alzrius, if you post your review first before anything else, which you usually do, I'll buy you a $5 soda from the mini bar this year


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## James Jacobs (Feb 11, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> So, James, any news you can give us on when we can see the other half of the modrons? Sometime soon, I hope.




You'll have to talk to Erik Mona and the Dragon editors for More Modrons, I'm afraid. The best I can probably do in Dungeon is one or two here and there, and they'll need to be justified by adventures. Which is to say, don't expect many more modrons in Dungeon for a while.

But let me say... the art for the modron article in Dragon is, in my opinion, the best modron art ever.


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## Cam Banks (Feb 11, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Whoever posts the table of contents of this issue first, I'll buy a drink for at GenCon this year.




DEMONOMICON OF IGGWILV: Malcanthet. The Queen of Succubi is detailed, including information on the incubi, her thralls, and so forth.

MULTIPLE DEMENTIA: Thirty demiplanes, some of which are given full treatment (the Demiplane of Imprisonment, the Black Abyss, and Moil) and others simply mentioned in brief.

ARCHOMENTALS: The Princes of Elemental Good are given full statistics and background.

ECOLOGY OF THE KEEPERS: Just in case you'd forgotten about those mysterious pale individuals in black with the goggles from Fiend Folio.

Also, Savage Tidings covers the Sea Wyvern and making modifications to it; Volo's Guide details four outsiders of the Realms (the harmonious choir of the words, the sliver, death devil (jerul), and umbral gloom); Dragonmarks outlines four manifest zones in Khorvaire; Sage Advice is loaded with planar questions; and Class Acts includes variant class features for spellthieves, a guide to the fighter, spells which can't be affected by spell resistance, and a bunch of replacement abilities for clerics in place of turn undead.

Cheers,
Cam


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## Shemeska (Feb 11, 2007)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> DEMONOMICON OF IGGWILV: Malcanthet. The Queen of Succubi is detailed, including information on the incubi, her thralls, and so forth.
> 
> MULTIPLE DEMENTIA: Thirty demiplanes, some of which are given full treatment (the Demiplane of Imprisonment, the Black Abyss, and Moil) and others simply mentioned in brief.
> 
> ...




Well Cam, that settles it then, I'll be getting you a drink this year at GenCon. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I'm looking forward to see how the (good) Archomentals turned out, and what references and such James worked into the Malcanthet article. And sweet, they used all three of the demiplanes I wrote up. Awesome. I didn't even know they were going to be in this issue.


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## BOZ (Feb 11, 2007)

does the Malchanthet article mention her rivals, Shami-Amourae and Lynkhab?  

how about those who she's had conflicts with, like Baphomet, Yeenoghu, and Graz'zt?  

any other demon lords mentioned in that article?


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## Cam Banks (Feb 11, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> does the Malchanthet article mention her rivals, Shami-Amourae and Lynkhab?




Yes, and the third one, Xinivrae.



> how about those who she's had conflicts with, like Baphomet, Yeenoghu, and Graz'zt?




Grazzt mostly, yes. 



> any other demon lords mentioned in that article?




Demogorgon is prominent since it's clear that Malcanthet and Demogorgon are major players in the Savage Tide adventure path.

Cheers,
Cam


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## Cam Banks (Feb 11, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Well Cam, that settles it then, I'll be getting you a drink this year at GenCon.




You can probably find me over at the Margaret Weis Productions booth. 



> I'm looking forward to see how the (good) Archomentals turned out, and what references and such James worked into the Malcanthet article. And sweet, they used all three of the demiplanes I wrote up. Awesome. I didn't even know they were going to be in this issue.




I liked the article a lot. I didn't even mind too much that the "Lost Citadel of Magic" demiplane was included in the list, although it's kind of 2nd edition. 

Cheers,
Cam


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## BOZ (Feb 11, 2007)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Yes, and the third one, Xinivrae.




wow, she's one busy gal, fighting off all these demons who want to be Queen of Succubi.


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## Nightfall (Feb 11, 2007)

Boz,

It's a full time job to be sure. I mean it's not easy being the top gal for an entire "race" of demons. Some gal at the bottom always wants in.


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## Xyanthon (Feb 11, 2007)

Paizo, thank you for making my year!  Modrons!!!!!!  I will need to extend my subscriptions out a couple of years.  You guys have been absolutely amazing for the past two years or so.


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## Alzrius (Feb 11, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> And Alzrius, if you post your review first before anything else, which you usually do, I'll buy you a $5 soda from the mini bar this year




Damn! This is what I get for working on the weekends!  

Looks like it's just tap water for me again this year.


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## takasi (Feb 11, 2007)

No preview for 354?


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## Nightfall (Feb 11, 2007)

Tak,

Wait for Al. He's good at that. Besides Cam's got DL stuff to work on.


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## Zarnam (Feb 11, 2007)

Dang ! That's some very interesting info to chew on 

If someone has some free time I have some questions:

1) Malcanthet - Is CR 28 ?? What's her Int/Cha

2) Is there any more info on this Xinivrae ??

3) A brief (as possible) summary of the Thrall PrC ??

4) Is this Death Devil from FR oustiders article a real devil (baatezu) ? Is he specific to any god ??

Thanks !!


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## BOZ (Feb 11, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Damn! This is what I get for working on the weekends!
> 
> Looks like it's just tap water for me again this year.




well then, get crackin on it.  enquiring minds want to know!  



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> No preview for 354?




check out the first post.  it even seems like the fact that there will be modrons in #354 has just about eclisped discussion of #353.    of course, that could be due in part to the fact that not much info has been posted about the current issue - though this is slowly being corrected.  



			
				Zarnam said:
			
		

> Malcanthet - Is CR 28 ??




yes; i asked already and James has confirmed this.


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## Alzrius (Feb 11, 2007)

Here's the preview for #354:



> *NEXT MONTH IN DRAGON #354
> 
> CORE BELIEFS: HEIRONEOUS*
> _by Sean K Reynolds_
> ...


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## Razz (Feb 11, 2007)

Strange, I thought they said there'd be SIX new Forgotten Realms outsiders as opposed to four?

And I have seen those creatures before, written by Thomas M. Costa and Eric L. Boyd. Nice work guys! I always thought their unique creations were cool and it's nice to see it made it into Dragon.

Yes, I'm greedy for more Dragon stuff, that's right!


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## Greg K (Feb 11, 2007)

Can you give an overview of the replacement abilities for spellthieves and clerics?


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## Nightfall (Feb 11, 2007)

Thanks for sharing Al.


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## Zaukrie (Feb 12, 2007)

James did a great job on the demon queen of succubi. I really enjoyed the article. He worked in a few names of other demons, I'm not sure (I'm no expert) if we've seen all the names before. The goals/politics/interaction with her enemies and the other demon lords was something I can definitely use in my campaigns (at least the ones I run for the group that isn't made up of 9-11 year old boys).

I've only read that one article, it has been a very busy weekend.


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## James Jacobs (Feb 12, 2007)

First off: Thanks for the kind words for the latest Demonomicon! I usually try to introduce one or two new demon lords with each of these articles. If one pulls the curtain back from one demon lord, it only makes sense to drop in two more that are little more than names. Call it job security if you will; in this way, the Demonomicon'll never run out of demon lords to talk about.

There are two brand new demon lords mentioned in this article, in any event. One of them is Xinivrae. The other one hasn't been mentioned on this thread yet, so I'll avoid the spoilers. It name drops a couple new types of loumara demons too.


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## Shemeska (Feb 12, 2007)

James Jacobs said:
			
		

> It name drops a couple new types of loumara demons too.




That's a nice touch there. They were nifty in FC:I, and more development of a yummy concept is a good thing. Hopefully my issue comes in the next few days.


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## BOZ (Feb 12, 2007)

i must live vicariously through the rest of you in the meantime.  

what other new and ineresting things did we learn?


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## Particle_Man (Feb 12, 2007)

Although I still own the 2nd edition Talisman game (actually 2 copies - one with all the expansion sets through Talisman Dragons and is beat up to hell, and one in fairly good condition but is simply Talisman and the Talisman Expansion Set), but I am glad to see that the game is being published again.  It is one heck of a game, although I personally prefer 2nd edition to 3rd edition.  That said, Prophetess is BROKEN in 2nd ed.

But MODRONS...this unit awaits issue #101100010 with interest.


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## Razz (Feb 12, 2007)

Greg K said:
			
		

> Can you give an overview of the replacement abilities for spellthieves and clerics?




I second this, please. If there's no feats then I better see some good alternate class abilities in the meantime. I'm curious for the ones with Spellthieves.


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## Danzauker (Feb 12, 2007)

NiTessine said:
			
		

> The tertian, which I don't think is among the common modrons, is in Dungeon #144, which is apparently the March 2007 issue.




March of the Modrons???


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2007)

For those of you with the issue...

Did Andrew Hou illustrate the good archomentals?   He did a fantastic job on the evil princes, so I'm hoping they used him again.


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## BOZ (Feb 12, 2007)

Danzauker said:
			
		

> March of the Modrons???




no, but there was the Great Modron March.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Did Andrew Hou illustrate the good archomentals?   He did a fantastic job on the evil princes, so I'm hoping they used him again.




i'm kind of curious for the art on that one, myself.    we did send in scans of Planescape MC3 with a few suggestions on changes to match the flavor text (give ben-hadar watery claws, make sunnis a teensy bit more feminine)...


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## Alzrius (Feb 12, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what other new and ineresting things did we learn?




Quite a few things, actually. Xinivrae, another contender for the title of Queen of the Succubi (along with Shami-Amourae and Lynkhab) was a succubus lord who "reveled in the seduction of women." She was cast into the Dreaming Gulf (layer 230).

Two new types of loumara demons are mentioned: "nature-corrupting manitous, and blade-haunting caligrostos." It also mentions that with the help of Elluvia Maure, Malcanthet has managed to _bind_ Sifkhu, a slumbering loumara lord (quite possibly the only one).

Also, three new places on her layer, Shendilavri. Istacian, the Rapine City, is an island where the incubi are kept, since that keeps them away from the rest of the realm, and lets them protect it from naval attacks. Miomanta is where the Radiant Sisters dwell when not doing Malcanthet's duty. And the Reckless Coast is the areas along the coast not directly part of a city of settlement, and a possible safe haven in the realm (or so you might think).



			
				Greg K said:
			
		

> Can you give an overview of the replacement abilities for spellthieves and clerics?




The replacement class abilities for spellthieves are cursed blow (on a successful sneak attack, you give up a spell slot to curse the target), hamper magic (on a successful sneak attack, you give up a damage die to reduce the target's caster levels), spelleater (when stealing a spell, you may consume it to heal damage instead of casting it), spellskill (when you steal a spell, you use its energy to improve your skill bonuses), and trickster (you gain less skill points per level, have less class skills, and have no trapfinding and do less sneak attack damage, but in return you can cast spells as a bard).

For clerics, giving up turning can get you one of the following class abilities: cultist (you are immune to atempts to see through your lies), evangelist (you can understand languages magically), fanatic (you are more intimidating and strike easier), healer (you can AC bonuses for healing creatures), justicar (you bring creatures back alive easier), mystic (you gain an extra spell slot), relic hunter (you avoid traps easier), sage (you gain Knowledge bonuses), scribe (you gain Scribe Scroll), shaman (you gain an animal companion), theologian (you resist divine spells easier), wanderer (you gain several skills as class skills), warrior priest (you can use a quickened spell on yourself or your gear), and weaponmaster (you don't need a free hand to cast spells with your deity's favored weapon).



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Did Andrew Hou illustrate the good archomentals? He did a fantastic job on the evil princes, so I'm hoping they used him again.




Hou did indeed do the illustrations for the article. The main piece for the article shows some tentacled monster attacking Ben-hadar. It's a fairly impressive full-page piece, and Ben-hadar is nicely indistinctive, but still with a humanoid shape. He does have claws at the end of his arms.

Chan's art basically shows a rather pretty female face in a sparkling cloud.

The art for Sunnis depicts her as quite svelte for an earth elemental, being tall and thin. Her humanoid figure is noticeably feminine, having the basic hourglass shape, as well as small but distinct breasts, and has one hand on her hip. The back of her head is also shaped as if she had a short but full head of hair.

Zaaman Rul, by contrast, seems a bit stocky in his portrayal. Unlike Sunnis, he's clothed, though only in a leather kilt. He actually has hair, and his wielding a sword of fire over his shoulder in his right hand.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hou did indeed do the illustrations for the article. The main piece for the article shows some tentacled monster attacking Ben-hadar. It's a fairly impressive full-page piece, and Ben-hadar is nicely indistinctive, but still with a humanoid shape. He does have claws at the end of his arms.
> 
> Chan's art basically shows a rather pretty female face in a sparkling cloud.
> 
> ...




Great!  Thanks!


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## Shemeska (Feb 12, 2007)

Al, who did the artwork for the Demiplane article, and what did they do images of?


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## Nikosandros (Feb 12, 2007)

Was this one actually shipped way in advance of the projected date?

I can't really believe hat it arrived in Italy after just 6 days...


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## kenmarable (Feb 12, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> *THE MODRONS RETURN*
> by Ken Marable
> After a lengthy isolation, the modrons march again! Venture of Regulus, the home city of these whimsical beings of perfect law, encounter the six most numerous types of modron, and explore the planes as a rogue modron PC.



WOO frigging HOO!! Sorry, just had to do a little celebratory dance. I actually didn't know if they were going to print my article or not. I have no idea what the final state of the article is, especially since what I delivered was longer than requested, of course. So I certainly can't spill any beans on what is coming out even if I didn't have an NDA. 

But I'm glad I'm not the only one who loves the little guys. They really did get the 3.x shaft.

I will say that I was very pleased with how my draft turned out, which is difficult considering everyone is their own worst critic. Again, I have no idea what the final article looks like, but when I sat down with the modrons from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition (MotP web enhancement), I realized that they were nearly word for word the exact same descriptions. So I decided not to do the exact same thing again only with 3.5 stats and MM4 formatting. Of course, I tried to stay true to them, but I also tried to breath some new life into them with some plot ideas and some loving for the lesser used modrons (there are more than monodrones and quadrones after all, and they could have used some stuff to make them a bit more interesting and more than just fillers in the mathematical progression).

But who knows, my article might have been totally gutted and rewritten and leaving my name on the preview is a typo. So we'll see. 

This creates the dilemma of whether to celebrate tonight with the wife and kids, or watch Heroes?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2007)

kenmarable said:
			
		

> This creates the dilemma of whether to celebrate tonight with the wife and kids, or watch Heroes?




Don't miss Heroes.  Just celebrate tomorrow night.  Don't wait until Wednesday, or you'll miss Lost.    

Congrats on the article, BTW.


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## kenmarable (Feb 12, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> So that's 7 down and 7 to go...half the modrons down.
> 
> Unless the tertian is in Dragon #353, which I hope not, cause we'll be back to 6 modrons again.



FYI - The "rogue modron PC" MIGHT count as one of the 6. I don't know for sure.

But if they are ever interested in a follow-up article on the rest of the modron heirarchy, I know one interested writer.  However, with the longer stat blocks, it would be a rather big article to handle the rest.



			
				joshhg said:
			
		

> Modron: Objection- _whimsical_ is #245 of Words that Do Not Apply To Modrons. Please comply to code



Also, the word "whimsical" never appeared in the draft I handed in.


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## Greg K (Feb 12, 2007)

Alzrius,
First, thanks for taking the time to reply.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The replacement class abilities for spellthieves are cursed blow (on a successful sneak attack, you give up a spell slot to curse the target), hamper magic (on a successful sneak attack, you give up a damage die to reduce the target's caster levels), spelleater (when stealing a spell, you may consume it to heal damage instead of casting it), spellskill (when you steal a spell, you use its energy to improve your skill bonuses), and trickster (you gain less skill points per level, have less class skills, and have no trapfinding and do less sneak attack damage, but in return you can cast spells as a bard).



Hmm. The ability cast spells like a bard sounds good.  However, I am disappointed that there is nothing replacing the tying mystical abilities to sneak attack


> For clerics, giving up turning can get you one of the following class abilities: cultist (you are immune to atempts to see through your lies), evangelist (you can understand languages magically), fanatic (you are more intimidating and strike easier), healer (you can AC bonuses for healing creatures), justicar (you bring creatures back alive easier), mystic (you gain an extra spell slot), relic hunter (you avoid traps easier), sage (you gain Knowledge bonuses), scribe (you gain Scribe Scroll), shaman (you gain an animal companion), theologian (you resist divine spells easier), wanderer (you gain several skills as class skills), warrior priest (you can use a quickened spell on yourself or your gear), and weaponmaster (you don't need a free hand to cast spells with your deity's favored weapon).



Meh. Nothing that really sounds interesting.


----------



## Desdichado (Feb 12, 2007)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> there is a preivew for Monsternomicon II and the new Talisman game.



Demon dogs!  You people are blathering on and on about modrons when there's a Monsternomicon II to discuss!?  What kind of sick people are you?


----------



## Shade (Feb 12, 2007)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Class Acts includes variant class features for spellthieves, a guide to the fighter, *spells which can't be affected by spell resistance*, and a bunch of replacement abilities for clerics in place of turn undead.




Hmmm...the article in bold sounds familiar.  This might be my second "double dip" issue.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 12, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Quite a few things, actually. Xinivrae, another contender for the title of Queen of the Succubi (along with Shami-Amourae and Lynkhab) was a succubus lord who "reveled in the seduction of women." She was cast into the Dreaming Gulf (layer 230).
> 
> Two new types of loumara demons are mentioned: "nature-corrupting manitous, and blade-haunting caligrostos." It also mentions that with the help of Elluvia Maure, Malcanthet has managed to _bind_ Sifkhu, a slumbering loumara lord (quite possibly the only one).




ooh, all the intrigue - i love it!  



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hou did indeed do the illustrations for the article. The main piece for the article shows some tentacled monster attacking Ben-hadar. It's a fairly impressive full-page piece, and Ben-hadar is nicely indistinctive, but still with a humanoid shape. He does have claws at the end of his arms.
> 
> Chan's art basically shows a rather pretty female face in a sparkling cloud.
> 
> ...




super sweet.    looks like he took into account the notes i made, and made an effort to match the illustrations up with the flavor text (unlike the art from PS MC3).

although i'm not as sure about Sunnis being svelte and thin - more feminine i wanted, yes, but not "cute" either.  beautiful in a solid way, like, "oh, she's a brick... house!"


----------



## BOZ (Feb 12, 2007)

kenmarable said:
			
		

> WOO frigging HOO!! Sorry, just had to do a little celebratory dance. I actually didn't know if they were going to print my article or not.




then congratulations indeed.    good to see the quirky little buggers getting some good airtime.



			
				kenmarable said:
			
		

> Also, the word "whimsical" never appeared in the draft I handed in.




that's reassuring.    a slaad might be whimsical, but a modron is anything but.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...the article in bold sounds familiar.  This might be my second "double dip" issue.




congrats to you too, in that case.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 12, 2007)

kenmarable said:
			
		

> Again, I have no idea what the final article looks like, but when I sat down with the modrons from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition (MotP web enhancement), I realized that they were nearly word for word the exact same descriptions. So I decided not to do the exact same thing again only with 3.5 stats and MM4 formatting. Of course, I tried to stay true to them, but I also tried to breath some new life into them with some plot ideas and some loving for the lesser used modrons (there are more than monodrones and quadrones after all, and they could have used some stuff to make them a bit more interesting and more than just fillers in the mathematical progression).




That sounds like an admirable philosophy. I hope they printed it all.


----------



## Razz (Feb 12, 2007)

kenmarable said:
			
		

> FYI - The "rogue modron PC" MIGHT count as one of the 6. I don't know for sure.
> 
> But if they are ever interested in a follow-up article on the rest of the modron heirarchy, I know one interested writer.  However, with the longer stat blocks, it would be a rather big article to handle the rest.




I hope the rogue one doesn't count, that'd be really misleading. But congratulations on your article!

But I am glad they got coverage. The only problem is it's incomplete and you really can't use one modron rank without somehow getting the ones higher up in the chain of command involved, too. I sincerely hope Dragon Magazine may have considered either a follow-up article for the other half of the modrons or possibly a web enhancement for their magazine to include the others. 

I'll be fighting the issue until I hear something. I am very happy this modron article was published, but rather sad to not hear any news of the other half being a definite future article or WE.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 12, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> The only problem is it's incomplete and you really can't use one modron rank without somehow getting the ones higher up in the chain of command involved, too.




Sure, you can. Pentadrones are more than intelligent enough to react on their own without needing their superiors to direct them. There is only one decaton in each sector for them to report to, so they're not going to be receiving commands very often. 

Certainly, all of a pentadrone's standing instructions come ultimately through its decaton superior, but there's no reason at all a decaton needs to be involved in an adventure involving pentadrones. There are only 100 decatons in the entire multiverse, and their duty is to overseer the welfare of the lesser modrons, not to interact with mortals - the chance of a PC interacting directly with anything of decaton or higher is vanishingly small.

The most likely hierarch for PCs to interact with is actually the tertian, since they're in charge of trial, judgment, and sentencing in Regulus. Rogue modrons are particularly likely to run afoul of them.


----------



## Razz (Feb 12, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Sure, you can. Pentadrones are more than intelligent enough to react on their own without needing their superiors to direct them. There is only one decaton in each sector for them to report to, so they're not going to be receiving commands very often.
> 
> Certainly, all of a pentadrone's standing instructions come ultimately through its decaton superior, but there's no reason at all a decaton needs to be involved in an adventure involving pentadrones. There are only 100 decatons in the entire multiverse, and their duty is to overseer the welfare of the lesser modrons, not to interact with mortals - the chance of a PC interacting directly with anything of decaton or higher is vanishingly small.
> 
> The most likely hierarch for PCs to interact with is actually the tertian, since they're in charge of trial, judgment, and sentencing in Regulus. Rogue modrons are particularly likely to run afoul of them.




True, it's not impossible for one to make heavy use of the lower caste of modrons without the higher ones involved. It's just at some point, whether the PCs angered the higher ups or something else, or the characters reach high level, the others will get involved. It'd just be neat to have the "upper" half to have at hand should either a DM want to make use of them for a large campaign or for a particular quest or quest arc. 

Worse comes to worse I'll have to study the 3.5E versions of the modrons in #354 and the tertian in Dungeon and revamp the rest of them to look similar to those in comparison. It'd be some work, and I hope to avoid all that with a hint or something from Dragon indicating they're definitely considering publishing the rest of the modrons.

Personally, I am that DM that would love to run a campaign involving the modrons. But it'd take the whole lot of them to do so.  Slaadi are so overrated and overused.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 12, 2007)

*is just anxious to see some demiplanes* Btw just for future reference, in this article is Ravenloft considered a demi-plane or just a rogue plane?


----------



## Cam Banks (Feb 13, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *is just anxious to see some demiplanes* Btw just for future reference, in this article is Ravenloft considered a demi-plane or just a rogue plane?




It's a demiplane, according to this article.

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 13, 2007)

Cam,

Thanks. Just checking to be sure.


----------



## Razz (Feb 13, 2007)

Damn it, I didn't get mine in the mail today...better luck tomorrow.


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *is just anxious to see some demiplanes* Btw just for future reference, in this article is Ravenloft considered a demi-plane or just a rogue plane?




It's a demiplane.

And btw Nightfall, you'll like Moil for the Orcus connection. And some additional stuff that had relevance to his renewed interest in that particular demiplane that was cut during the editing, I'll be posting on Planewalker if the guys over at Dragon are cool with it.

I just got my issue of the magazine today, so I'll field any questions about the Keeper Ecology and the Demiplanes feature.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 13, 2007)

Moil?! Tell me more! Or better yet, email me! That way it stays off people's radar and you don't worry about the arbiters of Dragon getting all up in your grill.


----------



## joshhg (Feb 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...the article in bold sounds familiar.  This might be my second "double dip" issue.



   Oh, it is, and I have no objections to it either.
Of course, you aren't the only one who has double dipped this issue. *Looks at a specific furball*
  Can't keep your furry fingers out of our planes, can you?    

  Do you realize that inflicting the Clockmaker on the rest of us is Very, Very Nice for DMs?
  And do you have any idea what those poor players are in for? *Shudder*

Great issue, to all of the authors!    

Oh, one last question. Where is Isle of the Black Trees from?


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2007)

joshhg said:
			
		

> Oh, it is, and I have no objections to it either.
> Of course, you aren't the only one who has double dipped this issue.




Apparently the Enworld Cabal has made inroads with Dragon. *grin*



> *Looks at a specific furball*
> Can't keep your furry fingers out of our planes, can you?




*grin* Do you expect any less of me? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







> Do you realize that inflicting the Clockmaker on the rest of us is Very, Very Nice for DMs?
> And do you have any idea what those poor players are in for? *Shudder*




He made my _players_ cry at the gaming table. I know exactly what I'm inflicting on you guys. Have fun, share the misery.  



> Oh, one last question. Where is Isle of the Black Trees from?




It's an obscure one. It's mentioned in a few sentences as random background detail in _The Eternal Boundary_, the first Planescape module released in 2e. There was never any real detail given beyond its name, and a few wizards who wanted to find it. So I gave it a 3e mention and added a sliver of plot hook to the place.


----------



## joshhg (Feb 13, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Apparently the Enworld Cabal has made inroads with Dragon. *grin*



 Scary, isn't it?



> *grin* Do you expect any less of me?



If I did, I could sleep at night.



> He made my _players_ cry at the gaming table. I know exactly what I'm inflicting on you guys. Have fun, share the misery.



I can hear DM's all over the world laughing. But the tears flow in silence.



> It's an obscure one. It's mentioned in a few sentences as random background detail in _The Eternal Boundary_, the first Planescape module released in 2e. There was never any real detail given beyond its name, and a few wizards who wanted to find it. So I gave it a 3e mention and added a sliver of plot hook to the place.



Cool, thanks. So, do you think we can expect any thing else from you in the near future?


----------



## BOZ (Feb 13, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> I just got my issue of the magazine today, so I'll field any questions about the Keeper Ecology and the Demiplanes feature.




only?


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2007)

joshhg said:
			
		

> Cool, thanks. So, do you think we can expect any thing else from you in the near future?




Maybe? I can't honestly say. I'd love to, but at the moment I only have queries in play with Dragon.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> only?




Anything for another member of the Enworld Cabal.


----------



## joshhg (Feb 13, 2007)

Shem- Too bad. Good luck with future submissions, I know you have sent in a couple I wouldn't mind seeing.


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2007)

BOZ, the Ben-Hadar and Rennbuu bit was awesome. I dig the connection, but my mind is constantly tumbling to an image of chibi slaad lord and chibi archomental hugging under a rainbow that reads "Ben-Hadar and Rennbuu, best friends forever!"

And the Charon reference is very nice, and again, very fitting for the beings involved in many ways, but you have to wonder how long the deal will last, or if the archomental is naive to the nature and reputation of the Marraenoloth Lord. Lots of potential there.


----------



## Alzrius (Feb 13, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> my mind is constantly tumbling to an image of chibi slaad lord and chibi archomental hugging under a rainbow that reads "Ben-Hadar and Rennbuu, best friends forever!"




...and now that's all I can see as well.    

You are so going to pay for that come Gen Con.


----------



## Shade (Feb 13, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> BOZ, the Ben-Hadar and Rennbuu bit was awesome. I dig the connection, but my mind is constantly tumbling to an image of chibi slaad lord and chibi archomental hugging under a rainbow that reads "Ben-Hadar and Rennbuu, best friends forever!"




We had alot of fun writing that bit, but I can honestly say that image never popped into my mind.    



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> And the Charon reference is very nice, and again, very fitting for the beings involved in many ways, but you have to wonder how long the deal will last, or if the archomental is naive to the nature and reputation of the Marraenoloth Lord. Lots of potential there.




Big Ben's juggling alot of dangerous alliances.

Speaking of strange bedfellows, did the link between Chan and Ehkahk survive editing?


----------



## Alzrius (Feb 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Speaking of strange bedfellows, did the link between Chan and Ehkahk survive editing?




In regards to Ehkakh providing intelligence on Zaaman Rul, then yes.

And I have to say, listing the relationships that the archomentals have to various other planar powers really made the article shine. Excellent work!


----------



## BOZ (Feb 13, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> BOZ, the Ben-Hadar and Rennbuu bit was awesome. I dig the connection, but my mind is constantly tumbling to an image of chibi slaad lord and chibi archomental hugging under a rainbow that reads "Ben-Hadar and Rennbuu, best friends forever!"




eheheheheh...   well, not exactly friends, best or otherwise, they just have... an understanding.  



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> And the Charon reference is very nice, and again, very fitting for the beings involved in many ways, but you have to wonder how long the deal will last, or if the archomental is naive to the nature and reputation of the Marraenoloth Lord. Lots of potential there.




again, more of an understanding.  i'm sure ben-hadar is keeping an eye on him just in case.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Big Ben's juggling alot of dangerous alliances.




absolutely!  i don't have to tell you of course, but one thing we tried to do was make these guys a bit more fleshed out and explain the tendencies given to them before.  like, why does ben-hadar not champion the cause of goodness and stick to his own people?  well, now you know.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Speaking of strange bedfellows, did the link between Chan and Ehkahk survive editing?






			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> In regards to Ehkakh providing intelligence on Zaaman Rul, then yes.




that was definitely an interesting one.    Shade first suggested that to me before he realized that Ehkakh was evil.  i had to think about that one and go, "wait a minute...", but then i figured let's go with that.  



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> And I have to say, listing the relationships that the archomentals have to various other planar powers really made the article shine. Excellent work!




no problem! we did that with the first one, and since these guys had no recorded exploits unlike the evil archomentals (and we couldn't think of any to invent, heh), we decided to focus on their interactions.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 13, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Shade first suggested that to me before he realized that Ehkakh was evil.




What makes you so sure Ehkahk is evil? His alignment was never mentioned in Planescape.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 13, 2007)

perhaps not, but in the 1E MotP he (and Bwimb and Chlimbia) are mentioned as "princes of para-elemental evil".  since that's never been refuted to the best of my knowledge, i assume it holds true.


----------



## ehren37 (Feb 13, 2007)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> I'll do the Modron thing, and then I'm off (the scans of the minis will be on Hordelings)
> 
> "After a lengthy isolation, the modrons march again! Venture to Reulus, the home city of these whimsical beings of perfect law, encounter the six most numerous types of modron, and explore the planes as a rogue modron PC."





"Query: Who is in the hizzy?"
"Declaration: MC^2 is in the hizzy. Elevate your fore-appendages and gesticulate with abandon!"

MC^2, rogue modron bard.

Modrons are so much more fun than bugs, I'm glad they are back.


----------



## Razz (Feb 13, 2007)

I got mine in today! Yay!

Great stuff! Only problem is this: there's a mistake on the cover.

It states there'd be SIX new outsiders for the Forgotten Realms setting...however, there's only 4 presented in the magazine.

An oversight, obviously, but which end?


----------



## JustKim (Feb 13, 2007)

The cover says 6, the article has 4, but the "other campaigns" blurb on page 66 mentions 5. The black beast of bedlam is missing.

Last month we were promised 6. I guess there was some gradual cutting going on.


----------



## Particle_Man (Feb 13, 2007)

I am so glad Modrons are coming back.  They are among the critters unique to D&D.  And it is kinda fun to use spare dice as minuratures.


----------



## Pants (Feb 14, 2007)

Great issue.

Demonomicon = awesome. Malcanthet is actually interesting!? Wow! Eva Widerman (sp?) does some great illustrations too! 

Ecology = Great stuff. Makes me want to use Keepers more, which should be the point of an Ecology article. Only problem: the advanced Keeper is chock full of 3.0isms. DR 10/+1? A reference to teleport without error? Yech. Otherwise a small smudge on a normally boring section.

Demiplanes = Pretty cool, the Moil bit was the best.

Good Archomentals = Nice stuff. Cool to see how they connect with other planar powers. 

Overall a very cool issue. I can't wait for next month's!


----------



## Desdichado (Feb 14, 2007)

Pants said:
			
		

> Demonomicon = awesome. Malcanthet is actually interesting!? Wow! Eva Widerman (sp?) does some great illustrations too!



Especially if you compare her lilitu to Baxa's in FC1.  Why that guy still gets so much work from WotC is a mystery to me.

And just because it bears repeating:  http://www.privateerpress.com/default.php?x=products/pip203







Dragon didn't give a date, but Privateer's website says May.


----------



## James Jacobs (Feb 14, 2007)

J-Dawg said:
			
		

> Especially if you compare her lilitu to Baxa's in FC1.  Why that guy still gets so much work from WotC is a mystery to me.





Ugh... don't get me started on that "Dr. Octopus Lilitu" from FC 1...  being able to order a new lilitu picuture for this article was actually really rewarding, even if I did end up having to cut the radiant sister stat block to make room for all the other stuff...

Eva's one of my favorite artists, though. Hopefully those Dragon folk'll get her back to do the next Demonomicon!


----------



## BOZ (Feb 14, 2007)

Pants said:
			
		

> Good Archomentals = Nice stuff. Cool to see how they connect with other planar powers.




glad to be of service.    people really seem to like that aspect of the article!


----------



## Alzrius (Feb 14, 2007)

James, a quick question. The goes out of its way to mention cambions and alu-demons, calling them "breeds" of half-fiends. And yet, there's no mechanics for these two half-demons in 3.5E D&D (third-party material notwithstanding). Why the nod with nothing to back it up?


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 14, 2007)

Pants said:
			
		

> Ecology = Great stuff. Makes me want to use Keepers more, which should be the point of an Ecology article. Only problem: the advanced Keeper is chock full of 3.0isms. DR 10/+1? A reference to teleport without error? Yech. Otherwise a small smudge on a normally boring section.




In my own defence, while I came up with the advanced keeper's name and rough concept, I didn't write the stats for the character.  

But that aside, I'm glad you liked it. I've had a ton of fun with those guys, including recently when my players stumbled across a ruined building within the former deific domain of Anubis in Arborea's third layer. So intent upon preventing access to a secret they couldn't take and destroy, around 50 Keepers had literally hurled themselves into the entrance to block anyone from entering, and had been there long enough to actually fossilize in place (except for the one with 22 levels of sorcerer...).


----------



## James Jacobs (Feb 14, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> James, a quick question. The goes out of its way to mention cambions and alu-demons, calling them "breeds" of half-fiends. And yet, there's no mechanics for these two half-demons in 3.5E D&D (third-party material notwithstanding). Why the nod with nothing to back it up?




Because D&D already has rules for half-fiends. Both alu-demons and cambions are just humans with the half-fiend template.

Put another way, not all half-fiend humans are cambions or alu-demons, but all cambions and alu-fiends are half-fiends.

I was, however, tempted to put in an altered set of abilities for alu-demons and cambions (similar to how we're handling lemorian half-fiends in the Savage Tide Adventure Path), but in the end there just wasn't enough room in the article. BUT! There's certainly room in this thread! So what follows is my "quick and dirty" rules for creating cambions and alu-demons (drawing upon their 1st edition incarnations) by altering the half-fiend template slightly:

*CAMBION* 
Armor: Natural armor improves by +4 instead of by +1
Speed: A cambion has no wings, but gains a +10 ft. bonus to its base land speed.
Full Attack: A cambion gains claw attacks as a half-fiend, but does not gain a bite attack.
Special Attacks: Cambions cannot smite good.
Spell-Like Abilities: Replace _darkness_ 3/day with _detect magic_ at will. Replace _desecrate_ with _cause fear_ 3/day. Replace _unholy blight_ with _levitate_  3/day. Replace _contagion_ with _polymorph_.
Abilities: Str +4, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +2, Cha +2

*ALU-DEMON* 
Armor: Natural armor improves by +4 instead of by +1.
Full Attack: An alu-demon gains no claw or bite attack. She does gain a special touch attack usable once per round as a standard action. If she hits, she deals 1d6 points of negative energy damage plus additional damage equal to her Charisma bonus. She gains half of any damage inflicted in this manner back as healing.
Special Attacks: Alu-demons cannot smite good.
Spell-Like Abilities: Replace _darkness_ 3/day with _charm person_ 3/day. Replace _desecrate_ with _detect thoughts_ 3/day. Replace _unholy blight_ with _suggestion_  3/day. Replace _poison_ with _polymorph_ 3/day (humanoid form only). Replace _contagion_ with _dimension door_.
Abilities: Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +2, Cha +6


----------



## Shade (Feb 14, 2007)

James, you rock.


----------



## Alzrius (Feb 14, 2007)

Woot! Thanks James!   

I'm tempted to ask for these and some other bits (like the Radiant Sisters stat blocks, or the missing FR outsiders) in the form of a web enhancement for the issue, but I can guess how likely that is.


----------



## James Jacobs (Feb 14, 2007)

*RADIANT SISTER	CR 18*
Female lilitu bard 12
CE Medium outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar, tanar’ri)
_Fiendish Codex_ I 43
*Init* +10; *Senses* darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +34, Spot +34
*Languages* Abyssal, Common; telepathy 100 ft.
*AC* 38, touch 24, flat-footed 28
*hp* 235 (26 HD); *DR* 10/cold iron or good
*Immune* electricity, poison
*Resist* acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 23
*Fort* +18, *Ref* +27, *Will* +22; evasion
*Weakness* divine magic
*Spd* 40 ft.
*Melee* _+2 vorpal whip dagger_ +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d6+4/19–20) and
claw +31 (1d6+1) and
4 stingers +31 (1d4+1 plus poison)
*Space* 5 ft.; *Reach* 5 ft. (10 ft. with stingers, 15 ft. with whip)
*Base Atk* +23; *Grp* +25
*Atk Options* Combat Reflexes
*Special Actions* halo, lilitu’s gift
*Bard Spells Known (CL12th)*
4th (6/day)—freedom of movement, modify memory (DC 30), rainbow pattern (DC 28)
3rd (6/day)—dispel magic, fear (DC 27), glibness, haste
2nd (7/day)—eagle’s splendor, hold person (DC 28), locate object, mirror image
1st (7/day)—expeditious retreat, obscure object, Tasha’s hideous laughter (DC 27), undetectable alignment
0 (3/day)—detect magic, mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation, summon instrument
*Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 9th)*
5th—greater command (DC 31), commune, dominate personD (DC 31), plane shift (DC 29), raise dead
4th—cure critical wounds (3), death ward, confusionD (DC 30), neutralize poison
3rd—cure serious wounds (4), magic vestment, nondetectionD, remove disease
2nd—cure moderate wounds (5), death knell (DC 26), hold person (DC 28), invisibilityD, lesser restoration
1st—commandD (DC 27), cure light wounds (5), divine favor, sanctuary (DC 25), shield of faith
0—cure minor wounds (4), detect magic, mending
*D* domain; *Domains* Temptation, Trickery
*Spell-Like Abilities (CL 14th)*
At will—charm monster (DC 28), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 26), disguise self (DC 25, no limit on duration), fly, suggestion (DC 27), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), sending, tongues
3/day—quickened suggestion (DC 27)
1/day—dominate person (DC 29), symbol of persuasion (DC 30)
*Abilities* Str 14, Dex 30, Con 21, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 38
*SQ* item use, mock divinity, shroud alignment
*Feats* Combat Reflexes, Dark Speech, Disguise Spell, Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Multiattack, Persuasive, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (suggestion), Spell Focus (enchantment), Weapon Finesse
*Skills* Bluff +45, Concentration +34, Diplomacy +47, Disguise +31 (+33 acting), Forgery +34, Heal +22, Intimidate +47, Knowledge (religion) +34, Listen +34, Perform (stringed instrument) +43, Perform (sing) +43, Sense Motive +34, Spot +34
Possessions +4 glamered leather armor, +2 vorpal whip dagger (stored in right glove of storing), ring of evasion, ring of protection +4, gloves of storing (2), golden heart worth 2,500 gp (stored in left glove of storing)
*Disguise Spell* A Radiant Sister can disguise spells as performances. To do so, she must make a Perform check as part of the action used to cast the spell. Onlookers must match or exceed her check result with a Spot check to detect that she’s casting a spell. Unless the spell visibly emanates from her, observers don’t know where the effect came from. A disguised spell can’t be identified with a Spellcraft check, but the act of casting still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. This feat appeared in _Complete Adventurer._
*Halo (Su)* Each Radiant Sister’s head is surmounted by a shimmering halo that matches the hue of her hair, a manifestation of her link and loyalty to Malcanthet. A Radiant Sister can control the intensity of illumination her halo provides as a free action, varying it from a faint glow that is all but imperceptible to a brilliance that provides bright illumination to a radius of 120 feet. Once per round as a free action, a Radiant Sister can focus the light of her halo on a single creature within 30 feet. The creature targeted must make a DC 31 Fortitude save to avoid being permanently blinded. The save DC is Charisma-based.
*Item Use (Ex)* A Radiant Sister can use any magic item as though she had successfully used the Use Magic Device skill.
*Lilitu’s Gift (Su)* Once per day, a radiant sister can embrace a willing or helpless creature to grant a +2 profane bonus to Charisma and a +2 profane bonus on saving throws as a standard action for 24 hours. The Radiant Sister’s name manifests as a tattoo in Abyssal on that creature’s body. The recipient cannot see his own tattoo. As long as the gift remains active, the lilitu can monitor that character’s condition and location as if she had placed a status spell on that character, and can communicate telepathically with the character at all times (even across planes), and by concentrating can observe the world around the character as if she were there in his place. Accepting a lilitu’s gift is a chaotic act. A creature can resist the gift with a DC 31 Will save. The save DC is Charisma-based.
*Mock Divinity  (Ex)* A Radiant Sister casts spells as a 9th-level cleridc, except that she uses her Charisma score to determine bonus spells per day and spell saving throw DCs. She cannot spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells, nor can she turn or rebuke undead. Most lilitus have access to the domains of Demonic and Trickery. The Radiant Sisters are an exception. As the favored agents of Malcanthet, they are allowed to choose their domains from any she normally grants her clerics—Chaos, Evil, Temptation, and Trickery.
*Poison (Su)* Stinger—Injury, Fort DC 21, 2d6 Wis/1d4 negative levels. The save DC is Constitution-based.
*Shroud Alignment (Ex)* Spells and spell-like abilities that have the good descriptor treat a lilitu as if her alignment was good. Magic items are similarly fooled.
*Temptation Granted Power* A Radiant Sister must select a gender (50% chance of either). As long as the Radiant Sister wears no armor, she gains a +2 competence bonus on Charisma-based checks opposed by creatures of this gender, and the save DC for any mind-affecting spells or abilities she uses against this gender increases by 1.
*Vulnerable to Divine Magic (Ex)* A lilitu’s heretical nature renders her particularly susceptible to divine magic. She makes all saving throws against divine magic a –2 penalty, and checks to overcome her spell resistance with a divine spell gain a  +4 sacred bonus.


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## Razz (Feb 14, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Woot! Thanks James!
> 
> I'm tempted to ask for these and some other bits (like the Radiant Sisters stat blocks, or the missing FR outsiders) in the form of a web enhancement for the issue, but I can guess how likely that is.




Shhh...save the Web Enhancement for the other half of the modrons in next issue!   

Those outsiders, by the way, were written by Thomas M. Costa and Eric L. Boyd and are practically identical to the ones in their Forgotten Realms Bestiary II. We can use those for the other outsiders cut out.


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## BOZ (Feb 14, 2007)

thanks James, great stuff!  

that reminds me, i need to get in there and update my Demonic Lore thread.    we put three demon lord references in the archomental article, and i know two got cut - is there one left under Sunnis perhaps?


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## sckeener (Feb 14, 2007)

Thanks James!

Having those tidbits makes it easier to wait for my issue to come in the mail.

And btw thanks for putting 337 in PDF.  I'm loving having Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Zuggtmoy article in a format I can read at work (copy&paste are a plus too.)

I hope the other Demonomicon articles go into PDF soon.


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## BOZ (Feb 14, 2007)

James Jacobs said:
			
		

> Eva's one of my favorite artists, though. Hopefully those Dragon folk'll get her back to do the next Demonomicon!




are there any samples available?  i don't think the Paizo site has any previews or whatnot for #353 yet.


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## sckeener (Feb 15, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> are there any samples available?  i don't think the Paizo site has any previews or whatnot for #353 yet.




I think this is Eva's site


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## Ipissimus (Feb 15, 2007)

James, other people have already said this, but it bears repeating: You rock. I've been waiting patiently for some love for the old Alu-fiends but this satisfies that craving nicely.

One look at my sig will probably tell everyone that I'm a fan of Malcanthet and some detail on her Thrall class would be much appreciated before the tension causes my head to explode, or at least if it rocks like Thrall of Gr'zzt or flubs like the Thrall of Orcus. Natrually I'm hopeful, since James has done a spectacular job with the others but...


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## Alzrius (Feb 15, 2007)

Ipissimus said:
			
		

> One look at my sig will probably tell everyone that I'm a fan of Malcanthet and some detail on her Thrall class would be much appreciated




It has some fairly intense requirements, such as needing to be female, losing a level to a succubus draining attack, and you need to willingly murder someone who loves you, among a few other prerequisites.

It grants seven levels of existing spellcasting levels, and has several powers themed around beauty and betrayal, though they all grant solid mechanical benefits. The 10th-leel power basically lets you become a succubus (mostly) for a short time.


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## joshhg (Feb 15, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> It grants seven levels of existing spellcasting levels, and has several powers themed around beauty and betrayal, though they all grant solid mechanical benefits. The 10th-leel power basically lets you become a succubus (mostly) for a short time.



A short time of a hour. That, with the CHA bonus (somewhere in the mid-high teens), and the first level ability, leaves it being a VERY nice class for any temperest to take. It will work nicely for long, harrassing hits and runs with a few heavy hitters.


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## mhacdebhandia (Feb 15, 2007)

I'd like to thank you for posting those, too, James.


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## Ipissimus (Feb 15, 2007)

Thanks bunches, Alzrius and joshhg, you guys rock too. 

Needing to be female... well, this is DnD, the game that brought us the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, hard but do-able. I wonder if Changelings count?

Losing a level to a succubus draining attack... hmmm... have to do that before I go for the immunity to energy drain class feature, the real problem is getting them to just take one.

But killing a loved one?!? I can't even consider that! I mean, I'd have to actually LOVE someone first for the sacrifice to work and the world is only composed of useless meat puppets born to dance to my will!

Oh, wait, someone who loves ME. Never mind then...


Needless to say, I'm ordering this one straight from Paizo. Keep up the good work, Dragoneers...


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## BOZ (Feb 15, 2007)

that PrC sounds pretty nasty.


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## Shroomy (Feb 16, 2007)

I love the Demonomicon articles, but I have to say my favorite parts have been the Thrall prestige classes.  They are just so interesting.


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## BOZ (Feb 16, 2007)

what article are these for?   http://jonhodgson.livejournal.com/21969.html


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## Razz (Feb 16, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what article are these for?   http://jonhodgson.livejournal.com/21969.html




Those were for the Eberron article in #353


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2007)

ah!  i don't think anyone's even mentioned it, so i didn't realize there was one.


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## mhacdebhandia (Feb 17, 2007)

There's always an Eberron article - Dragonmarks - and a Forgotten Realms article - Volo's Guide.


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## sckeener (Feb 17, 2007)

This is one of those times when I am annoyed at how slow the postal system is....shipped on the 6th and I still don't have it   

It is a bit funny....I peaked out the window all day just knowing it would come today.  Of course it didn't....


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## Nightfall (Feb 18, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> It has some fairly intense requirements, such as needing to be female, losing a level to a succubus draining attack, and you need to willingly murder someone who loves you, among a few other prerequisites.
> 
> It grants seven levels of existing spellcasting levels, and has several powers themed around beauty and betrayal, though they all grant solid mechanical benefits. The 10th-leel power basically lets you become a succubus (mostly) for a short time.




So in other words, it's almost as good as a Thrall of Frazzy, but not eh?


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2007)

FYI, since i didn't want to clog up this thread with too many topics, i decided to create another one for discussing the archomentals: http://www.planewalker.com/forums/viewThread.php?intPostID=27008


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## Ipissimus (Feb 19, 2007)

Ok, I just picked up Dungeon 352 off my local news stand, and I do believe that pic next to the preview for issue 353 is a sketch for Eva's new Malcanthet pic, which, may I add, kicks the living bejeebus out of all previous attempts to depict her profane beauty.

And it's still just the sketch. The possibility of what the end result should look like has me drooling already... UPS Global post, don't fail me now...


----------



## Razz (Feb 19, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> FYI, since i didn't want to clog up this thread with too many topics, i decided to create another one for discussing the archomentals: http://www.planewalker.com/forums/viewThread.php?intPostID=27008




Yeah I did easily notice the mention of quite a few new archomental lords in that second part. 

Do I smell another archomental submission, hmmm?


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2007)

anything's possible, but nothing serious is in the works just yet.


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## JustKim (Feb 20, 2007)

I hope not to see more archomentals described. Those articles have been some of my favorites in recent years, but more is not better when it comes to these characters. Just bringing the existing archomentals to light is great and, I feel, it would cheapen them to add more like them to the mythology.


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2007)

JustKim said:
			
		

> I hope not to see more archomentals described. Those articles have been some of my favorites in recent years, but more is not better when it comes to these characters. Just bringing the existing archomentals to light is great and, I feel, it would cheapen them to add more like them to the mythology.




glad you liked them.  

truth be told, i'm torn between my similar feelings for that same argument, and the idea of just getting 'em done for those who want it.

most likely, Shade and i will eventually send in a query, and it will be rejected.    but if it's not... then i guess we'll go with it.  

of course, there are several named elemental lords already in existence, so it's not a matter of creating new ones, and it's long been established that there are more archomentals in the planes than just the known ones.  it might be best to just stop at "the big nine" we've already done, but it might just be interesting to pursue the rest.


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## Nightfall (Feb 21, 2007)

Boz,

If I was still in Morgantown, I'd probably be able to better articulate my feelings for this article. As it stands...I'm just idling until I get a copy via Paizo.


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## sckeener (Feb 21, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> As it stands...I'm just idling until I get a copy via Paizo.




ditto...I'm very sad that I do not have my copy yet...17 business days so far since it shipped.


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## BOZ (Feb 21, 2007)

so, it would be silly for me to go to Borders today looking for it, wouldn't it?    i'll probably wind up being silly anyway then...


----------



## sckeener (Feb 21, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so, it would be silly for me to go to Borders today looking for it, wouldn't it?    i'll probably wind up being silly anyway then...




Borders....just one phone call away...


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## Shroomy (Feb 21, 2007)

I just called my local Borders and they don't have it.  No worries, I'm confident I will have a copy in my hands by Saturday afternoon.


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2007)

sckeener said:
			
		

> ditto...I'm very sad that I do not have my copy yet...11 business days so far since it shipped.




Same here.  It seems like the issues I manage to get an article in are the only ones that arrive late!


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## BOZ (Feb 21, 2007)

aha - so, it's _your_ fault!


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## Shroomy (Feb 21, 2007)

Boz, check out Borders.  Issue 353 arrived here in Madison WI today.


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## Particle_Man (Feb 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Same here.  It seems like the issues I manage to get an article in are the only ones that arrive late!




Well Dragon 354 should arrive on time, as Modrons are notorious for being on-schedule.


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## Razz (Feb 22, 2007)

JustKim said:
			
		

> I hope not to see more archomentals described. Those articles have been some of my favorites in recent years, but more is not better when it comes to these characters. Just bringing the existing archomentals to light is great and, I feel, it would cheapen them to add more like them to the mythology.




Then why mention them in the first place? I guess it's just me, but, I like knowing there's a strong possibility of a mentioned creature being given stats then throwing stuff in for flavor purposes. I mean, what if I really wanted to base my next campaign around a huge Elemental War between all the archomentals? It'd make sense for me to have the stats to them all, then.

And, personally, I tend to run epic campaigns so a showdown with the PCs and all the evil archomentals (simultaneously) is something my players would never forget.


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## BOZ (Feb 22, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Boz, check out Borders.  Issue 353 arrived here in Madison WI today.




yep, we got it here too - which means i now have it in my very hands.  

i definitely like the art.    they do much more closely match the text now.


much as i did with the evil archomentals article, i decided to page through and see what was cut.  a lot more was cut from this one, but looking at what was cut i can kind of see why at least some of it went.    it's nothing that's a major loss, but here are the cut parts.  of course, none of it is official at all, but feel free to use any of it as you will, from our original manuscript.

from the first paragraph: "While the fury of the Elemental Princes of Evil has shaken the multiverse for millennia, many mortals don’t realize that nonevil archomentals exist.  In fact, each Elemental Plane has several archomentals with differing alignments and goals."

BEN-HADAR
these parts were trimmed from the Wall of Water ability: "The entire wall must be completely submerged when formed." "It does not deal cold damage."

from the second paragraph of text: "Ben-hadar’s purity freshens any water he moves through."

"A squad of ocean striders (MM II 163) aid any ships sucked through vortices into the Plane of Water to find their way back, while destroying those that come seeking to plunder its riches."

CHAN
these two full paragraphs:

"Long ago, Chan discovered a strange multi-colored pool on a flying rock at the heart of an eternal thunderstorm.  Tied to this pool are four primal elemental weirds, one of each element.   These ancient beings form an oracular consciousness, always answering any questions presented in unison.  Their lore of the multiverse is nearly unmatched, yet they refuse to reveal their own origins."

"Chan stays on good terms with the djinn, who treat her more as a revered guest than a leader.  She occasionally visits the Citadel of Ice and Steel to consult with their grand caliphs, and rumors suggest that she has a particular interest in the enigmatic prisoner held within the citadel's heart."

SUNNIS
"As Sunnis walks, fragrant flowers bloom from the earth in her footprints."

this paragraph:
"When traveling the plane of Earth, Sunnis seeks out items and people of great worth. She collects unique and exotic treasures, and shows her gratitude to anyone who finds them for her. Gem collectors (especially gnomes) hold her up to a high ideal, saying "if Sunnis would not value this, neither would I!" Sunnis also collects powerful individuals in a sense, by making friends with true heroes and making allies of good-hearted beings. She has much in common with the guardinal paragon Bharri, her most potent ally."

regarding a certain lord of minerals: "he seeks to become the ruler of the Plane of Earth, and hoards gems of all sorts, both of which make him a nuisance to Sunnis."

ZAAMAN RUL
"In his wake, Zaaman Rul leaves twin trails of bright flame which glow brightly like torches before burning out."

the Abyssal lord Alzrius was mentioned in our submission as one of his adversaries, but was replaced by a certain Archdevil.  

this sentence explains who the sollux are, for people unfamiliar: "Zaaman Rul has also gained the allegiance of the sollux—tall, crimson skinned beings claiming to be cousins of the efreet."

this paragraph:
"Rumors hint that Zaaman Rul armed himself with a mysterious artifact of untold goodness during his assault on Imix, though it was lost in the waves of the Blazing Sea before he had the chance to use it."

and this sidebar:
AVATARS OF ELEMENTAL GOOD

Monster Manual IV introduced the avatars of Elemental Evil, each the living will of a Prince of Elemental Evil that contains a tiny fragment of the corresponding prince's essence and exists solely to advance its creator's cause on the Material Plane. To counteract these powerful elemental servants, the good archomentals have created avatars of their own.   Ben-Hadar has spawned the Seaborn Sentinel; Chan created the Guardian Zephyr; Sunnis' spawn is known as the Brightgem Colossus; and Zaaman Rul has formed the Truefire Liberator.  These avatars sometimes aid powerful nonevil druids and clerics with elemental domains.


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## Nightfall (Feb 23, 2007)

Finally got a hold of Dragon 353. Good issue. While the Archomentals of Good were decent to good, I much preferred looking over Malachent. (For obvious reasons.  ) In any case it's a great article and I enjoyed and the Demiplanes too. Next issue should be interesting but I'm still waiting for Demorgogon in whatever Dragon it is he's slated for.


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## BOZ (Feb 23, 2007)

357.


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## Nightfall (Feb 23, 2007)

Well gives me something to look forward to...I guess.

What's 355 and 356 then?


----------



## BOZ (Feb 23, 2007)

not demonomicon?  

355 and 356

obviously, only one of those contains Creature Catalog VI, unless it's a two-parter.


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## Razz (Feb 23, 2007)

I hope one of them contains the other half of the *Modron* race.


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## BOZ (Feb 23, 2007)

it wouldn't seem so, but you never know.


----------



## Particle_Man (Feb 23, 2007)

*re: modrons*

I got an email from Erik Mona basically saying that they are going to wait and see what the reception is for the modrons before they commit to more.

So if you were going to buy multiple copies of 354 to get more modrons later, who could blame you?


----------



## Knightfall (Feb 24, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> The cover's showing her, and is quite nice. Plus, there is another picture of her, with an angel kneeling in front of her. Seems she's doing her job well!



I'll say...


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Feb 24, 2007)

Wow! Who knew they had implants in the Abyss?


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 24, 2007)

Drew,

Hey where else do you expect Plastic surgeons to go?


----------



## Zarnam (Feb 24, 2007)

Ok, since more people got their hands on the Malcanthet Demonomicon perhaps someone could answer those two questions:

1) What is her Int and Cha
2) Did she get any new special abilities since her appearance in FC I ??

Thanks !!


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2007)

higher than 20, and higher than 40.


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## Razz (Feb 24, 2007)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> I got an email from Erik Mona basically saying that they are going to wait and see what the reception is for the modrons before they commit to more.
> 
> So if you were going to buy multiple copies of 354 to get more modrons later, who could blame you?




Crap, so I have to rely on enough people to be excited over Modrons for there to be a chance!?

All Modron fans here better send a letter to Paizo when #354 comes out begging for the rest of the Modrons...or else...um...or else Formians will be the new lawful entities.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Feb 25, 2007)

James, I just wanted to thank you for a minor detail from the article on Malcanthet!

"Only the rare redeemed succubus, *such as the enigmatic Fall-From-Grace of Sigil*, escape her fondness . . ."

My wife is playing through _Planescape: Torment_ right now, as it happens, so I was absolutely delighted to see this reference!


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Feb 25, 2007)

Oh, and I agree with Razz for once. I'd love to see the full modron hierarchy described!


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 25, 2007)

BOZ posted what was trimmed from his archomental article, and so I've gone through and seen what was trimmed from the Demiplane article and the Ecology of the Keepers. This is all crossposted with Planewalker (though they got it first).

Cut from the last paragraph in the description of Moil: 
_"Overseen by the lilitu Alxhiira (CE, Lilitu cleric 6 of Orcus), Moil has become a prison for captured worshippers of Kiaransalee, littered with twisted versions of Acererak’s riddles and deathtraps." _

Cut from the list of potential destinations for things sucked into the center of the Black Abyss: 
_"layer 1293 the “Amber Inferno of Thrice Damned Jahannam”" _

Cut from the list of misc demiplanes: 
_"Demiplane of Ectoplasm – a “demiplane” fashioned of raw ectoplasm on the Astral" _

Cut from the Demiplane of Imprisonment: 
following the first mention of the demiplane's prisoner, while the version that made it to print doesn't name it, my submitted version did _"called the Dark God, the Elder Elemental Eye, Tharizdun, the Elder Elemental God, who seeks nothing less than the destruction of everything." _

The article never mentioned big T by name or alias, but the motifs are still there, so even though he's not named, the intention is still preserved. 

I also included the following line that speculates on Big T's nature and place within the timeline of the planes and his exact nature as a deity: 
_"These legends are ancient, with fiendish historians placing the Dark God's imprisonment near the birth of the first deities spawned of mortal worship, and potentially before that point, suggesting the entity might not be a god in the same sense, but something else, originally native to another multiverse." _


And for the Keeper ecology:

This bit was removed from the 'History of the Keeper' section:

_"Some stories claim that the keepers resulted from the first, abortive attempt by the gods to create inevitables, or a flawed attempt to mimic those beings of Law by a deity of Chaos. Others claim that a long dead god of secrets created them, and that now alone and abandoned, they perpetually seek to uphold their creator’s tenets even as that god slips further and further into oblivion. Still others claim that the keepers are some form of living illusions, or even sentient protomatter, first spawned and given true substance and definition within the Deep Ethereal, either by intent or by mistake."_

The following section was cut entirely:

_"*Alternative Keeper Origins*

*Arcane Experiments:*  Other legends claim that the keepers were the creations of Areya Fenthellis, 1st disciple of Shekelor, and last Factol of the Incantifers, a magic obsessed planar faction that was ultimately destroyed at the height of their power. Her creations still live on however, and so might she, still locked away in exile within the Mazes of the Lady of Pain.

*Fiendish origins:*  Several archfiends have been linked to the creation of the keepers as servitors, among them Corin, the Lord of Espionage of Baator’s Dark Eight, as well as a long litany of noble Baatezu within the courts of Dispater and Levistus.
The most intriguing name linked to the keepers however, is one that is barely remembered: Larsdana Ap Neut, the designer and first lord of Gehenna’s Tower Arcane. A monstrously powerful arcanaloth and yugoloth lord, she may have created the keepers in secret, just before she was killed or imprisoned by her protégé, Helekanalaith, the current holder of her former position. Even beyond her race's obsession with secrets, the title she created and held within the yugoloth hierarchy was, quite suggestively, that of Keeper of the Tower.

*Deific Creations:*  The keepers might be the creations of a deity of secrets, possibly ancient servitors of Vecna, Shar, the now dead Maanzecorian, or a forgotten deity whose corpse drifts unlamented through the silver void of the Astral. Alternatively, the keepers could be creations of Mnemosyne, the imprisoned Titan of Memory, wishing to gather secrets and knowledge outside the bounds of her prison in Carceri."_

The following was cut from the Physiology section:

_"Hints of any further detail into keeper anatomy are slim, given the beings’ rarity combined with their propensity to dissolve when killed or captured. Still, two sources of information exist. The first is an obscure book titled ‘Songs of Scream, Saw, Silence’, of either Yugoloth or Tanar’ri origin, which details in exquisite and macabre detail, the still living vivisection of nearly two hundred separate species of mortal, and includes a portrait of and a footnote on a creature bearing a close resemblance to a keeper. Referred to only by a numerical designation, likely a catalog notation from the book’s original source, the resemblance is uncanny. The volume describes the being as ‘a nuisance’ and speaks of it as an ‘eater of secrets’, adding ‘Let it choke on ours’.

Ultimately the book’s fiendish author laments that while he took steps to preserve the creature’s form, nearly all detail was lost during its attempts to commit suicide. What he recovered though seemed to suggest that the keeper’s body cavity contained a non-homogenous protoplasm-like liquid, composed of several immiscible, sequential layers, surrounded by a protective membrane: the creature’s glossy skin.

The only other source of detailed information comes from a series of torn and reassembled pages, supposedly discovered sewn into the backing of an unrelated tome purchased in the extraplanar city of Sigil. Regardless of its origin, the pages of this second source are decorated with elaborate illustrations intermixed between passages of cramped, coded writing in an apparently artificial script. 

Though the writing remains undeciphered, the diagrams confirm a number of the claims of the previous fiendish author, except that this second source performed its examinations on a willing subject, possibly one still in the process of forming or growing. The document indicates that the outermost layer of liquid or other material closest to the skin can aggregate and differentiate into other structures, the source of the keepers’ minor metamorphic ability. The next layer down apparently functions in a hydraulic capacity, forcing itself against gravity and giving the keepers their oddly articulated motion.

Unfortunately the second source abruptly stops in mid sentence of its coded script, with any additional pages either misplaced or destroyed. Ultimately the sources leave behind tantalizing suggestions, but nothing firm, nothing pinned down and cataloged, no secrets left open to the light, only a situation that perfectly suits the keepers’ secretive nature."_

And finally there was a 'D&D Origin of the Keeper Sidebar':

_Unique to D&D, keepers first appeared in the 1995 Planescape Monstrous Compendium II by Richard Baker. Later, the 1997 module ‘Dead Gods’ mentions the keepers when Tenebrous (recently mentioned in the 3.5 Tome of Magic) pondered approaching them for information about the lost Wand of Orcus. In 3rd edition D&D, the 3e Fiend Folio reintroduced the keepers, finally bringing their mystery to a new generation of games and gamers alike._


----------



## Razz (Feb 25, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> Oh, and I agree with Razz for once. I'd love to see the full modron hierarchy described!




You must be an imposter...you...agree...WITH ME?!   

I can set aside my differences for the sake of 3.5 Modrons


----------



## Razz (Feb 25, 2007)

If I recall correctly, the Keepers actually originated when a member of Fraternity of Order discovered loopholes of the Laws of the Multiverse and ended up creating his own multiverse. He created the Keepers to the police force and keepers of the knowledge of this new multiverse and was, well, killed when he gave them those orders.

You know, the Keepers would be ripe in 3E for the purpose of the changes in the Multiverse made in 3E. One could have it where the new multiverse created was...well...the one we have in 3E! With Keepers keeping the secret of this on both ends.

Hmm...I think that'll be the story for my campaign. Perfect!


----------



## BOZ (Feb 25, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> All Modron fans here better send a letter to Paizo when #354 comes out begging for the rest of the Modrons...or else...um...or else Formians will be the new lawful entities.




they already sort of are, aren't they?  100 magazine articles probably won't change that.


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 25, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, the Keepers actually originated when a member of Fraternity of Order discovered loopholes of the Laws of the Multiverse and ended up creating his own multiverse.




And that was the primary origin story I kept with in the article  He either created a new multiverse de-novo and pulled the Keepers from it, or he found a way to access other, already pre-existant realities, and found the Keepers in one of them. The mention of ether gaps late in the article hints that it's the latter.


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## mhacdebhandia (Feb 25, 2007)

I like formians; I used them in the setting described in my "Limited-Resource Campaign Design" thread.

I don't think they're good as the paragons of Law.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Mine arrived on Saturday.  Fantastic issue.  I read it nearly cover to cover (well, skipping First Watch as always).

James - You did it again.  The Malcanthet Demonomicon was fantastic!   And the artwork...wow.   That's an interesting take on the incubus, and I liked the fact that the "Malcanthet's Realm" section didn't rehash FCII.   All in all, great article.

Shemeska - Both the demiplanes and ecology of the keeper were wonderful.  It's great to have Moil resurface, and I could definitely have fun with the Black Abyss.


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## Zaukrie (Feb 26, 2007)

Finally, ironically, I've gotten a chance to read more of this. Great demi-plane article - this kind of article is the reason Dragon exists (as are the Demonicon articles).

The FR outsiders article and accompanying stat blocks make me pine for the old days of 1 column's worth of data to run a monster (sort of, anyway).

Nice write-up on the good-guy archonmentals - the motives/goals sections (can't remember the name at work) were good - they weren't all the same.


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## BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> James - You did it again.




uhoh - now you did it!



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It's great to have Moil resurface




yeah, now we don't have to worry about sending in a query on that one anymore.  



			
				Zaukrie said:
			
		

> Nice write-up on the good-guy archonmentals - the motives/goals sections (can't remember the name at work) were good - they weren't all the same.




thanks.    the archomentals started off fairly different from one another, so we took that and ran with it - you can thank Monte for that.


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## heirodule (Feb 26, 2007)

Any thoughts on Keeper origins in Eberron?


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## BOZ (Feb 27, 2007)

where *could* they come from - answer that, and narrow it down.


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## Zarnam (Feb 27, 2007)

Finally got my own Dragon #353 

James, since I know you are dropping in from time to time to see what's cooking, I have a question for you - because we already know that the next Demonomicon is about Demogorgon I am very curious about what CR might he be given (you gave this hint about Malcanthet, so why not about Demmy ??)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2007)

Zarnam said:
			
		

> Finally got my own Dragon #353
> 
> James, since I know you are dropping in from time to time to see what's cooking, I have a question for you - because we already know that the next Demonomicon is about Demogorgon I am very curious about what CR might he be given (you gave this hint about Malcanthet, so why not about Demmy ??)



It's been mentioned a few times on other threads that the Demonomicon Demogorgon will probably be CR 32. Like here.

Demiurge out.


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## Hussar (Feb 27, 2007)

Sigh, overseas bloody mail.  I was so jazzed when 352 ACTUALLY arrived in January.  I was hoping it would stay that way.  Three years of subscription and I've had exactly one issue arrive in the proper month.  Grr.  Besides that, now my sub's arrive in a manila envelope.  That's a new one.


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## sckeener (Feb 27, 2007)

Yippee...I got mine!  Now I know I need to wait at least 20 days before I pester/poke Paizo. 

Since I knew I'd be sneaking peeks at it all day today at work today, I only read about the Keepers last night.  

Great job on them Shemeska!


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## Razz (Feb 27, 2007)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> Finally, ironically, I've gotten a chance to read more of this. Great demi-plane article - this kind of article is the reason Dragon exists (as are the Demonicon articles).
> 
> The FR outsiders article and accompanying stat blocks make me pine for the old days of 1 column's worth of data to run a monster (sort of, anyway).
> 
> Nice write-up on the good-guy archonmentals - the motives/goals sections (can't remember the name at work) were good - they weren't all the same.




Yep, apparently WotC's been making their game material supremely bloated from monster write-ups to prestige classes and now magic items.

Ah...how I miss the 3.0 and early 3.5 days days of WotC's books.....


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## James Jacobs (Feb 27, 2007)

Yeah; Demogorgon's probably going to be CR 32. There's a chance he'll end up at CR 33, and a smaller chance he'll end up at CR 31, but the whole series of Demonomicon articles has been based around the idea that Demogorgon's going to have the highest CR. So far, Dagon's at CR 30, and he's not quite as tough as Obox-ob or Orcus or Graz'zt, who aren't as tough as Demogorgon, so yup. Chances for CR 32 look pretty good.


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## Alzrius (Feb 27, 2007)

Given that Obox-ob is a shadow of his former self (literally just an aspect that has managed to gain some power since the original Obox-ob was slain), he must have had quite the CR back when he was at his height.


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## KL (Feb 28, 2007)

*New Incubus Sucks*

The new incarnation of the incubus sucks. They looked like satyrs with gazelle horns.
I like the older version where they also use guile and seduction. As usual, the same old double standards.


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## sckeener (Feb 28, 2007)

KL said:
			
		

> The new incarnation of the incubus sucks. They looked like satyrs with gazelle horns.
> I like the older version where they also use guile and seduction. As usual, the same old double standards.




I think you are looking at them wrong.  Guile and seduction are the domain of succubus.  Don't think of the succubus as male or female but the chaotic evil corruptible essence of seduction and lust.    The succubus is no more female than a rock from the abyss.  Both are of the essence of the abyss.  One just has more purpose (and a plan) than the other.

 Yes, the incubus is very much the satyr...just a chaotic evil version.  He still isn't male.  It has male parts and the essence of abyss.  

Also, I'd have to say there are more men in the universe with feelings similar to the incubus than there are women.  It is understandable that the abyss recognized this....

on the bizarre note, I think the fiendish codex I mentioned that demons can eat an endless amount of material....and that they appear to have an endless supply of bodily fluids....makes me wonder how long a particular type of session with an incubus might last....a few days...endless?


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## BOZ (Feb 28, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Given that Obox-ob is a shadow of his former self (literally just an aspect that has managed to gain some power since the original Obox-ob was slain), he must have had quite the CR back when he was at his height.




or maybe he has regained most of what he once had, after having had enough time to do so.


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## James Jacobs (Feb 28, 2007)

On incubi: If you want a male seducer demon, you need look no further than a succubus in male form. D&D thus had no need for a male seducer demon, but it did have need for an incubus, a demon that embodies the stereotypical aggressive lustful male. Same sin, different approach.

On Obox-ob: Yeah, he's had countless eons to rebuild his power, and my idea is that he's close to where he once was. At his height, he was likely about as powerful as Demogorgon is now (be it a CR 23, 32, or 2332 version of Demogorgon).


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## sckeener (Feb 28, 2007)

James,

Since you are here....what is the level adjustment for playing a Incubus?


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## Nightfall (Mar 2, 2007)

James, 

If you're making Demogorgon 32 now, then Obox-ob should have been 32 as well at his height.

Of course if we go by Krusty's assertion, I'll be happy with that too.


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## James Jacobs (Mar 2, 2007)

sckeener said:
			
		

> James,
> 
> Since you are here....what is the level adjustment for playing a Incubus?




Well, comparing them to the succubus is prolly the best place to start. And a succubus has a LA of +6. The incubus has worse everything than a succubus, except that it's got a better Strength and a better Constitution. And his best spell-like ability's a 4th level spell, as opposed to the succubus who has an 8th level one.

I'd probably set the Incubus at a +4 Level Adjustment, I suppose.


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## Nightfall (Mar 2, 2007)

*always wondered why people wanted to play fiends as PCs* I mean I can see some monstrous humaniods and a few abberations...

But fiends should be NPCs, if you ask me. 

Or if they are PCs, they should be like the ones in charge.


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## James Jacobs (Mar 2, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> James,
> 
> If you're making Demogorgon 32 now, then Obox-ob should have been 32 as well at his height.
> 
> Of course if we go by Krusty's assertion, I'll be happy with that too.




Makes sense. Of course, it's not quite where he'd be at today, but it'd be close. Obox-ob if/when he gets a Demonomicon will most likely be CR 31.


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## James Jacobs (Mar 2, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *always wondered why people wanted to play fiends as PCs* I mean I can see some monstrous humaniods and a few abberations...
> 
> But fiends should be NPCs, if you ask me.
> 
> Or if they are PCs, they should be like the ones in charge.




Level Adjustments for fiends are helpful when you use Leadership, so you can determine what the ECL is of a fiend you might want to take on as a cohort. But I agree on the PC front; fiends don't make good PCs. In fact, in games I run, I prefer to not let anyone play ECL levels above +1 or maybe +2. Even at +2, they tend to end up with glass jaws at higher levels, when their bonuses are relatively insignificant.


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## Nightfall (Mar 2, 2007)

James,

Thanks for clarifying that LA stuff on fiends. I guess I wasn't thinking about Leadership. But back to Obox-ox, 31 eh? Not bad...but it does make sense. Again I'm waiting more impatiently for Orcus...but I guess all in good time right?


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## Shemeska (Mar 2, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *always wondered why people wanted to play fiends as PCs* I mean I can see some monstrous humaniods and a few abberations...
> 
> But fiends should be NPCs, if you ask me.
> 
> Or if they are PCs, they should be like the ones in charge.




From the perspective of game mechanics, making them either balanced or effective PC's can be difficult.

But beyond the numbers, trust me when I say that a fiend PC can be an interesting experience for a DM to run, especially when the draw of their blood differs from their overt alignment, and family politics occasionally rear up. I've got a half-yugoloth PC in my current campaign with an interesting bloodline, and watching her try to avoid the manipulation and corruption from that side of her background while simultaneously being exposed to its temptations, both inner and external, have been a joy.

I wouldn't suggest it for a starting player, or for a DM who isn't up for the complexity it might bring up in game however (to say nothing of the conflict between PCs it might also cause depending on alignments and backgrounds).

[see SH2]


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## Kae'Yoss (Mar 2, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *always wondered why people wanted to play fiends as PCs*




Because it's fun!

I played an incubus once (succubus stats, but a fiend who passed himself off as a male most of the time). It has its appeals.


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## Kobold Avenger (Mar 2, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *always wondered why people wanted to play fiends as PCs* I mean I can see some monstrous humaniods and a few abberations...
> 
> But fiends should be NPCs, if you ask me.



Back in 2e I always wanted a Cambion or Alu-Fiend as a PC, yes technically they're specialized Half-Fiends and therefore more likely to be PCs.


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## Nightfall (Mar 3, 2007)

Well I a tad surprised but gladdened to see some reasons beyond Shemmy's reasons. Thanks guys! Something to mull over when I start another campaign...


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## KL (Mar 4, 2007)

James Jacobs said:
			
		

> On incubi: If you want a male seducer demon, you need look no further than a succubus in male form. D&D thus had no need for a male seducer demon, but it did have need for an incubus, a demon that embodies the stereotypical aggressive lustful male. Same sin, different approach.




That is like saying D&D has no need for more dragons and new monsters.


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## Pants (Mar 4, 2007)

KL said:
			
		

> That is like saying D&D has no need for more dragons and new monsters.



Not really.
At least most new monsters have different abilities and flavor. A male seducer demon would likely just be succubus with a gender change, thus no need for an actual writeup.


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## Nightfall (Mar 5, 2007)

Pants,

That's also a good point. And while I'm not against Dragon's version, hey there's always Book of Fiends if you want Inccubi.


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## Pants (Mar 6, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Pants,
> 
> That's also a good point. And while I'm not against Dragon's version, hey there's always Book of Fiends if you want Inccubi.



Yeah, the BoF Incubus is not bad. I think I like the Dragon writeup better, if only because of its changed focus.... and the better art.


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## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> Back in 2e I always wanted a Cambion or Alu-Fiend as a PC, yes technically they're specialized Half-Fiends and therefore more likely to be PCs.




yeah, those really are the best fiends for playing as PCs.  remembering back a bit, i think that implication was there in planescape...?


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## Kobold Avenger (Mar 7, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, those really are the best fiends for playing as PCs.  remembering back a bit, i think that implication was there in planescape...?



That's the impression I got with their PSMCI entries.  

And with that impression, it sort of surprised me with Planescape: Torment that Fall-From-Grace was a succubus, rather than an Alu-Fiend.


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## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

succubi are more impressive?


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## Zarnam (Mar 7, 2007)

I have a question about the modron article - from what I've read, the most powerful modron revised so far is a decaton (not counting the tertian in Dungeon) - what CR does it have ??


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## kenmarable (Mar 8, 2007)

Zarnam said:
			
		

> I have a question about the modron article - from what I've read, the most powerful modron revised so far is a decaton (not counting the tertian in Dungeon) - what CR does it have ??



A) It just shipped a day or two ago to subscribers, and it usually takes a bit before it arrives (mine takes a week at the earliest), so I'm not sure anyone outside of Paizo has it yet. Though I am certainly eager to hear when it arrives.

B) Don't assume decatons are covered. There is a pretty big conceptual split between the base modrons and the hierarchs and I wouldn't assume the article covers all the base modrons and 1 hierarch. Seems a little odd to me. Ya never know, those pesky "rogue" modrons might be different enough to be the 6th one written up. I don't know until I see it, of course. I'm just thinking out loud here and don't want anyone disappointed if they expect to see a rank that isn't there.


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