# Spirited Charge and Charging Lance



## takasi (May 28, 2007)

Description of Spirited Charge:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spiritedCharge
"When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."

Do you do double the damage from a weapon's bonus, as with the 2d6 from a charging weapon (from MIC), sneak attack or other bonuses?

My first instinct is no, but this is only due to this passage from magic items:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm
"Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifiers to damage, additional dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit. "

However, spirited charge (and lances in general) do double (possibly triple) damage; this is not a critical hit.  Can anyone quote an official rule that would indicate that damage modifiers (like sneak attack, elemental damage, holy, etc) would not be doubled (or tripled) with this feat (or weapon)?


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## Darklone (May 28, 2007)

Even if it's strangely worded, I wouldn't make an exception from the usual case.

And the feat is strong enough anyhow. Use level 1 mounted fighter NPCs and you'll see.


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## frankthedm (May 28, 2007)

takasi said:
			
		

> Do you do double the damage from a weapon's bonus, as with the 2d6 from a charging weapon (from MIC), sneak attack or other bonuses?





			
				Multiplying Damage said:
			
		

> Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.
> 
> Exception: *Extra damage dice* over and above a weapon’s normal damage are *never multiplied. *



There you go.


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## Piratecat (May 29, 2007)

Frank has it right. Any additional dice of damage are never doubled.


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## takasi (May 29, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> There you go.




That's what I needed.  Thanks again Frank!


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## kjenks (May 29, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> And the feat is strong enough anyhow. Use level 1 mounted fighter NPCs and you'll see.




Level 1 human fighter
Str 18 (none of the rest of the stats matter much)
Skills: Ride
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
Equipment: Light warhorse, saddle, lance

Mounted lance charge: +7 attack, 3d8+18 damage

+1 more on attack rolls if opponent is smaller than mount

These guys are ridiculously easy to defeat with ranged weapons, spells, and alchemical gear (like tanglefoot bags), but if you're outside with no cover or difficult terrain nearby, your party could be in serious trouble. 

Or try these:

Level 6 human fighter
Str 19 (none of the rest of the stats matter much)
Skills: Ride
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
+ Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper
Equipment: Light warhorse, saddle, +1 lance

Mounted lance charge: +13 attack, 3d8+57 damage

+1 more on attack rolls if opponent is smaller than mount

The Heedless Charge tactic from the Shock Trooper feat allows these guys to modify Power Attack so that they subtract the PA number from Armor Class instead of their attack roll. Armor Class doesn't matter very much after a Ride-by Attack unless you're getting attacked by ranged weapons. Two-handed Power Attack gives a +12 damage bonus, and that's tripled by Spirited Charge. 

By level 6, you could even put in a level of barbarian with the Reckless Rage feat for more ouchiness.

These NPCs are even easier to defeat than their 1st-level cousins because the party has many more resources for creating difficult terrain, going invisible, imposing smoke or fog, or otherwise preventing mounted lance charges. But if they do get to attack, it's gonna sting.


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## takasi (May 29, 2007)

I am in the process of building a Living Greyhawk gnome fighter.  Do you guys think this will be a survivable build?  Someone told me that you can't use a lance two handed to power attack while mounted, but I can't find that anywhere in the rules.  Can anyone confirm?  At third level with gauntlets he could two handed power attack with a charge for masterwork lance +8 (3d6+36), does that look right?  And another question:  if he scores a crit, is it effectively 9d6+108?

Male gnome fighter 1
Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +0, Senses low-light vision, Spot -1, Listen -1
Languages Common, Gnome
----------------------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17
hp 13 (1 HD)
Fort +5, Ref +0, Will -1
----------------------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee lance +5 (1d6+3 / x3) or
Ranged longbow +1 (1d6 / x3)
Base Atk +1; Grp +0
Atk options Ride-by-Attack
----------------------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack
Skills Handle Animal 4/+3, Ride 4/+5
Possession combat gear, scalemail, heavy steel shield, pony


Male gnome fighter 2
Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +0, Senses low-light vision, Spot -1, Listen -1
Languages Common, Gnome
----------------------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17
hp 22 (2 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +0, Will -1
----------------------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee lance +6 (1d6+3 / x3) or
Ranged longbow +2 (1d6 / x3)
Base Atk +2; Grp +1
Atk options Ride-by-Attack
----------------------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge
Skills Handle Animal 5/+4, Ride 5/+8
Possession combat gear, scalemail, heavy steel shield, warpony

Male gnome fighter 3
Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +0, Senses low-light vision, Spot -1, Listen -1
Languages Common, Gnome
----------------------------------
AC 20, touch 10, flat-footed 20
hp 31 (3 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +0
----------------------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee masterwork lance +9 (1d6+4 / x3) or
Ranged longbow +3 (1d6 / x3)
Base Atk +3; Grp +3
Atk options Ride-by-Attack
----------------------------------
Abilities Str 18, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack
Skills Handle Animal 5/+4, Ride 5/+8
Possession combat gear, full plate, heavy steel shield, warpony, gauntlets of ogre power


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## Ragnar69 (May 29, 2007)

Looks correct to me.

I´m toying with the idea of a paladin on a (celestial) rhino, but somehow it doesn´t fit right. I would like to overrun/trample/bullrush by into an infantrie formation by charging one of the rear guys. But the rhino ha s no hoove attack for trample and all the feats only alow 1 creature to be overrun/bullrushed/trampled if I read it right. Maybe Imrpoved Overrun for the rhino for the first opponent, Trample from the pala on the second, and a charhe from both on the third guy.


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## frankthedm (May 29, 2007)

Ragnar69 said:
			
		

> and a charhe from both on the third guy.



You would have to forgo a lance. The reach of that weapon means either you or the rhino won't be able to attack that last foe in 3.5.

Also...

The 3.5 errata on Overrun will prevent the rhino from being able to attack at ALL if it overruns.


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## kjenks (May 29, 2007)

takasi said:
			
		

> I am in the process of building a Living Greyhawk gnome fighter.  Do you guys think this will be a survivable build?  Someone told me that you can't use a lance two handed to power attack while mounted, but I can't find that anywhere in the rules.  Can anyone confirm?




Someone told you wrong. A lance is a two-handed weapon and you can use it to get 2x Power Attack, while mounted or on foot.

While mounted, you may use a lance one-handed, but you'd lose out on the 1.5x Str bonus and 2x Power Attack for the dubious benefit of using your off-hand for a shield. After a Ride-by Attack, you're not likely to need much AC anyway.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> At third level with gauntlets he could two handed power attack with a charge for masterwork lance +8 (3d6+36), does that look right?




At level 3, your gnome would have an attack bonus like this:

+3 BAB
-3 Power Attack
+2 charging
+1 size
+1 masterwork enhancement
+4 Strength bonus
===
+8 attack

Damage would be:
1d6 small lance
+6 Strength bonus, two-handed
+12 Power Attack
===
1d6+18

Triple damage from Spirited Charge would be
3d6+54



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> And another question:  if he scores a crit, is it effectively 9d6+108?




Heavens, no!

A critical hit with a lance is x3. Spirited Charge is x3. Add them together and you get x5.

So your mounted lance charge critical hit inflicts 5d6+90



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Male gnome fighter 1
> Small humanoid (gnome)
> Init +0, Senses low-light vision, Spot -1, Listen -1
> Languages Common, Gnome
> ...




Pick up Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper as you level up. Also consider Beastmaster  levels for an animal companion; a dire bat is really nice for this character.


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## IanB (May 29, 2007)

A reasonable (and realistic) house rule is: no power attack at all when using a lance in a charge. If you wanted to get more complicated, you could also add: use the mount's strength (or maybe con modifier) instead of your own (since the damage on a mounted charge is really coming from the mount, not the character.)


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## Rystil Arden (May 29, 2007)

> Level 6 human fighter




To add to kjenks' idea in a very dangerous fashion, get a mount that is intelligent enough that you don't need to spend a move action telling controlling it in battle (there are many ways to do this, of course--there are even purchase and training rules for some of the MM ones right in the MM, or you could do Paladin).  Then gain some psionic PP somehow (psionic race, feat, etc).  Then max out Concentration and take the Deep Impact feat and the Psionic Meditation feat.  This will allow you to spend a move action every round to regain Psionic focus and still have your standard action to attack on the Spirited Charge, and you can spend the focus to make the attack a Touch Attack.  Power Attack away!


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## Legildur (May 30, 2007)

kjenks said:
			
		

> Someone told you wrong. A lance is a two-handed weapon and you can use it to get 2x Power Attack, while mounted or on foot.
> 
> While mounted, you may use a lance one-handed, but you'd lose out on the 1.5x Str bonus and 2x Power Attack for the dubious benefit of using your off-hand for a shield.



Says who?

A lance is a 'two-handed weapon'. Therefore you get the 2x PA and the 1.5x Str bonus to damage under all circumstances. (there are a couple of threads on all this)


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## Hypersmurf (May 30, 2007)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Says who?
> 
> A lance is a 'two-handed weapon'. Therefore you get the 2x PA and the 1.5x Str bonus to damage under all circumstances. (there are a couple of threads on all this)




Well, this is for a Living Greyhawk character; my understanding is that Living Greyhawk uses FAQ answers, whether or not they match the rules.

So for the purposes of a Living Greyhawk character, a lance used in one hand is a one-handed weapon, despite the rules saying a lance is a two-handed weapon.

-Hyp.


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## Legildur (May 30, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Well, this is for a Living Greyhawk character; my understanding is that Living Greyhawk uses FAQ answers, whether or not they match the rules.
> 
> So for the purposes of a Living Greyhawk character, a lance used in one hand is a one-handed weapon, despite the rules saying a lance is a two-handed weapon.



LOL! Okay, whatever they like.... Although I can understand in the interests of simplicity why they have a blanket rule about whether or not they accept the FAQ.


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## kjenks (May 30, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> To add to kjenks' idea in a very dangerous fashion, get a mount that is intelligent enough that you don't need to spend a move action telling controlling it in battle (there are many ways to do this, of course--there are even purchase and training rules for some of the MM ones right in the MM, or you could do Paladin).  Then gain some psionic PP somehow (psionic race, feat, etc).  Then max out Concentration and take the Deep Impact feat and the Psionic Meditation feat.  This will allow you to spend a move action every round to regain Psionic focus and still have your standard action to attack on the Spirited Charge, and you can spend the focus to make the attack a Touch Attack.  Power Attack away!




Since this is for the Living Greyhawk campaign, there are campaign restritions against some of those ideas.

To "get a mount that is intelligent enough that you don't need to spend a move action telling controlling it in battle," all you need is to make it "war-trained" or "trained for combat riding while in battle" (per the Ride skill description). 

SRD
===
Fight with Warhorse: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
...
Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for warhorses or warponies.
===

At most Living Greyhawk tables, giving an animal the six tricks in the Combat Riding package will suffice:

SRD
===
Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.
===

But since "war-trained" isn't well-defined, you'll see some table variations, where different judges have different opinions.


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## kjenks (May 30, 2007)

IanB said:
			
		

> A reasonable (and realistic) house rule is: no power attack at all when using a lance in a charge. If you wanted to get more complicated, you could also add: use the mount's strength (or maybe con modifier) instead of your own (since the damage on a mounted charge is really coming from the mount, not the character.)




The Living Greyhawk campaign discourages house rules.


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## UltimaGabe (May 30, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> To add to kjenks' idea in a very dangerous fashion, get a mount that is intelligent enough that you don't need to spend a move action telling controlling it in battle (there are many ways to do this, of course--there are even purchase and training rules for some of the MM ones right in the MM, or you could do Paladin).  Then gain some psionic PP somehow (psionic race, feat, etc).  Then max out Concentration and take the Deep Impact feat and the Psionic Meditation feat.  This will allow you to spend a move action every round to regain Psionic focus and still have your standard action to attack on the Spirited Charge, and you can spend the focus to make the attack a Touch Attack.  Power Attack away!





...Except that a Charge (spirited or not) is a Full-Round Action, not a Move and a Standard. It doesn't matter if your mount spends a move action or not, you still have to spend a full-round action to get the benefits of a charge. Otherwise, it's just a move and an attack.


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## IanB (May 30, 2007)

kjenks said:
			
		

> The Living Greyhawk campaign discourages house rules.




I realize that; my comment was more meant for any non-LG DM who wanders across this thread and thinks "uh oh" when they seen the numbers.


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## Diirk (May 30, 2007)

On a slight tangent, but does anyone else feel the alternate paladin class feature from PHB2, Charging Smite, is grossly overpowered?

Even at 5th level, a basic mounted charge with a lance will do (normal damage + 15) x 2 with a nice hit bonus from both the charge and the smite. Add in spirited charge and you're already looking at 45 damage BEFORE adding in strength, magic enhancements, base weapon damage etc... Rhino's Rush (Paladin lvl 1 spell) from Spell Compendium takes this up to a x4 multiplier for 60+ damage. Heck, even if you somehow miss, Charging Smite states you don't even lose the smite attempt...

That's pretty disgusting.


PS. you need armour class even for ride by attack to avoid the attacks of opportunity you'll incur. Ride by attack doesn't do anything to negate AoOs. Mind you, dead things don't get AoOs...


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## Rystil Arden (May 30, 2007)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> ...Except that a Charge (spirited or not) is a Full-Round Action, not a Move and a Standard. It doesn't matter if your mount spends a move action or not, you still have to spend a full-round action to get the benefits of a charge. Otherwise, it's just a move and an attack.



 A mount charging cannot be a full-round action for the rider because otherwise you could never charge except on an intelligent mount--check this clause in the Ride skill:



> As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for warhorses or warponies.




In other words--even on a warhorse, it still takes a move action to control your mount, you just automatically succeed.

Also, check this out:



> If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.




So as you can see--your mount charges, and you just "make an attack" that receives the bonus gained from the charge.


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## kjenks (May 30, 2007)

The Living Greyhawk campaign doesn't usually allow those alternate class features.



			
				Diirk said:
			
		

> PS. you need armour class even for ride by attack to avoid the attacks of opportunity you'll incur. Ride by attack doesn't do anything to negate AoOs. Mind you, dead things don't get AoOs...




SRD
===
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. *You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.*
===

In my long experience with this tactic, even a tricked-out Shock Trooper/Smite Evil/Spirited Charge doesn't kill creatures of the correct Encounter Level in one hit. It usually takes two. But it almost never takes three. 

And inflicting 150 HP on one hit almost always gets their undivided attention. That stings.


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## IanB (May 31, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> In other words--even on a warhorse, it still takes a move action to control your mount, you just automatically succeed.




That's sort of ambiguously worded; I think it can also be read as simply clarifying that you don't need to take the action with a war-trained mount. I could see designer intent going either way on this one, too.

Also, amusingly, from the epic uses of ride:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Unconscious Control
> As a free action, the character can attempt to control a light horse, pony, or heavy horse while in combat. If the character fails, he or she controls the mount as a move-equivalent action. A character does not need to roll for warhorses or warponies.




Obviously anyone riding a non-trained mount should always attempt the epic use, especially if they have a low Ride skill; you automatically succeed on the move-equivalent use of the skill without a chance of losing control.


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 31, 2007)

Diirk said:
			
		

> On a slight tangent, but does anyone else feel the alternate paladin class feature from PHB2, Charging Smite, is grossly overpowered?
> 
> Even at 5th level, a basic mounted charge with a lance will do (normal damage + 15) x 2 with a nice hit bonus from both the charge and the smite. Add in spirited charge and you're already looking at 45 damage BEFORE adding in strength, magic enhancements, base weapon damage etc... Rhino's Rush (Paladin lvl 1 spell) from Spell Compendium takes this up to a x4 multiplier for 60+ damage. Heck, even if you somehow miss, Charging Smite states you don't even lose the smite attempt...
> 
> That's pretty disgusting.




In one of my games, we're gestalt characters and the healer/paladin has this variant, getting the mount from her healer class.  It can be quite disgusting.  She regularly sets and re-sets single hit damage records.  I think right now, at level 14, her record is like 182, and that's without using charging smite!  Actually, she's hardly used it at all yet.  I think it's balanced by the fact that in most games, a paladin who takes it has no special mount, and thus can't combine it with spirited charge.  I suppose he could go Mongol-style and take ten horses with him into every battle...  As far as buying special mounts and training them, that's a significant expenditure of resources, so I wouldn't mind, though it's easy to say that not having had to deal with it.  Of course, it can only be abused on evil creatures, and only a few times a day.  A paladin is supposed to be awesome against evil, and the special mount really is a hefty benefit to lose, if you actually chose to use it.  That reasoning aside, however, it is quite strong.  The real question is: Does this ability make the paladin better against evil enemies than cleric and druid (widely considered most powerful classes in general)?  If not, it's definitely fine.  If so, as long as it isn't a huge margin of difference, it should still be ok.  Thanks for mentioning Rhino's Rush, though.  We can add that to her bag of tricks, now!

[sblock]For those who are interested (off-topic), the paladin/healer currently has these factors working in her favor for charges:

1. Spirited Charge + special mount
2. It's a final fantasy-based game, so her mount is a chocobo w/ the mount trait to carry riders the same size as it (medium), thus allowing it to go almost anywhere with her.
3. Rhino Hide.  Sooooo Good!
4. Since she's "White Mage," DM houseruled Greater Mighty Whallop on her healer spell list, which she combines w/ Divine Spell Power to have a +4 size category hammer at level 14.  (If not for the housrule, one of the two BMs would learn it, but this allows early access to higher size adjustments.)
5. Once again, as WM, DM allowed the BoED feat that gives wis to hit with simple weapons to be modified to give it to hit and damage, but only with the hammer.
6. Game's been in recess for a few weeks and it was a recent addition, but I believe she has a 3/day item to make a successful charge's multiplier increase by 1.[/sblock]


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## Moon-Lancer (May 31, 2007)

IanB said:
			
		

> That's sort of ambiguously worded; I think it can also be read as simply clarifying that you don't need to take the action with a war-trained mount. I could see designer intent going either way on this one, too.
> 
> Also, amusingly, from the epic uses of ride:
> 
> ...




So does this mean if you have a warhorse you can move in combat, full attack, and move away? 

That would be a move action on the horse, full round attack for you and then a move action for the horse?

If not that can you move in and at least get a full attack?


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## Moon-Lancer (May 31, 2007)

> When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. *If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack.* Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.




So i guess regardless if a warhorse takes a move action or a free action to move,  It would seem that you still only get one attack, but you have a extra move action to drop your lance and pull out a sword.


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## Rystil Arden (May 31, 2007)

IanB said:
			
		

> That's sort of ambiguously worded; I think it can also be read as simply clarifying that you don't need to take the action with a war-trained mount. I could see designer intent going either way on this one, too.
> 
> Also, amusingly, from the epic uses of ride:
> 
> ...



 It isn't quite as absurd if we remember that Epic is 3.0, so it doesn't have to be consistent


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