# Monster Manual: Legendary Evils Complete Set!!



## mykelsss (Jun 20, 2009)

DDM Spoilers by Greyhaze

Keep in mind it is called ddmspoilers for a reason! Turn away now if you follow the path of the purist! 

Some analysis:



 Paint jobs appear much better this time around, although there _appear _to be some stinkers in the bunch. Miniatures always look much different in-hand though.
 Brown and green dragons are insta-buys for me. The green dragon is absolutely vicious looking.
 The Beholder is purple? Ahaha, not really knocking it, though. I think the eye looks a little cartoonish but the figure as a whole certainly looks better than the last one which I found to be the worst of the five. I think there's five. 
 War Troll looks cool although I'd like to see a different angle on him. I like to see them big noses.
 The foulspawn look great. Although I can't say I'll be using them in my campaign, I'm very glad the sets are more focused now instead of trying to get in a single monster figure representative of each race. Very much in-line with the 4E mindset. By this I mean how we have 2-3 types of monsters (githerzerai, goblins, duergar, foulspawn, elementals, slaads).
 Speaking of slaads, they look great.
 The translucent plastic commonly used for the elementals is in full-force here. Purely a matter of taste but I tend to dislike it unless it's done well. The Storm Titan is a good example of it done well while the Psychic Sentinel looks like it was crafted out of jello.
 The Horrid Scarab Larva Swarm looks like a pile of coins. Could make for a nifty trap idea. Or not, hahah.
 The choice of huges seems much better this time. Nearly all of the huges would scream out "buy these minis!!" to the consumer.


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## Novem5er (Jun 20, 2009)

Wow! Nice minis... these can't be the for-release paint jobs, can they? For the most part they look VERY good.

I also note the two Draconian figures  I might have to start buying minis again, ESPECIALLY now that some of the awesome minis are visible.


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## mykelsss (Jun 20, 2009)

Yeah, based on Greyhaze's images of the past set (which weren't ever updated and are for-release paint jobs), I'd say it's safe to assume these are the final paint jobs.


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## the Jester (Jun 20, 2009)

Holy cow, this is a GREAT looking set!



Novem5er said:


> I also note the two Draconian figures




I'm starting to give more weight to the Dragonlance speculation.


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## Jack99 (Jun 20, 2009)

Sweet. Definitely a big improvement over the last time.

Btw, speaking of figures, does anyone know a link to a complete list (with pictures) of the last line (the one released recently)?


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## Peter Lee (Jun 20, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> Btw, speaking of figures, does anyone know a link to a complete list (with pictures) of the last line (the one released recently)?




Gallery is here:

D&D Miniatures Gallery: Dangerous Delves


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## Jack99 (Jun 20, 2009)

Peter Lee said:


> Gallery is here:
> 
> D&D Miniatures Gallery: Dangerous Delves




Thanks, I don't know why I couldn't find that myself.


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## mykelsss (Jun 20, 2009)

Something odd though: This brown dragon has four legs. In the Draconomicon the adults quite clearly have two stubby legs, but I realize that somehow brown dragon wyrmling has all four. A shame: The 2-legged one looked quite cool.


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## CasvalRemDeikun (Jun 20, 2009)

mykelsss said:


> Something odd though: Brown dragons have four legs. In the Draconomicon the adults quite clearly have two stubby legs, but I realize that somehow brown dragon wyrmling has all four. A shame: The 2-legged one looked quite cool.



 No they don't, they have four legs in every picture.  Look at Nefermandias, he is a four-legged brown.  The dragon on page 169 has his/her hind legs curled up underneath the front legs.


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## Ant (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm pretty impressed.  This is the best looking set in a long time.

But ... yet _another_ minotaur?


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## deadsmurf (Jun 20, 2009)

Ant said:


> I'm pretty impressed.  This is the best looking set in a long time.
> 
> But ... yet _another_ minotaur?




They are a playable race in DDI and PHB3... there likely will be a few more.  Then more in the PHB heroes set likely.


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## Leatherhead (Jun 20, 2009)

Wait, some of the monsters are marked as "Visible."

This means I can finally get a beholder without paying through the nose on the secondary market!

Well in theory at least.


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## crash_beedo (Jun 20, 2009)

The mix in this set works for me... wow.  So glad to see multiple Foulspawn, been waiting for Goristro, Yochlol, Storm Titan and Remhorhaz are spectacular, and Visible Elder Dragons... joy.

When does this come out?  August is too long.


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## Sammael (Jun 20, 2009)

Leatherhead said:


> Wait, some of the monsters are marked as "Visible."
> 
> This means I can finally get a beholder without paying through the nose on the secondary market!
> 
> Well in theory at least.



All huge miniatures are visible:

Balor
Beholder Ultimate Tyrant
Elder Green Dragon
Elder Iron Dragon
Frost Titan
Goristro
Remorhaz
Storm Titan


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## Vael (Jun 20, 2009)

The only visible I'm not super keen on is the Goristro ... I could end up buying a lot of this set.


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## Drkfathr1 (Jun 20, 2009)

I guess i didn't pay much attention to the last set, but are that many figures really "rare"? Seems like the vast majority are labled as such.


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## Sammael (Jun 20, 2009)

It's a new distribution thing they're trying out for huge sets. Each booster will contain 1 visible, 2 rares, and 2 commons. With MSRP at $22, they sort of had to add more rares to make up for the fact that each booster only contains 5 miniatures.

To remind everyone, the first huge set, Giants of Legend, had a MSRP of $20 and contained 9 minis - 8 regular sized ones (1 rare, 3 uncommons, 4 commons) and 1 huge (which could be rare or uncommon).


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## Eridanis (Jun 20, 2009)

Sammael said:


> Each booster will contain 1 visible, 2 rares, and 2 commons. With MSRP at $22...




I've passed on the past few sets, but these look really good. But at more than $4 a mini, this will not be an impulse buy for me. Still might pick up one box and try for others on eBay, though.


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## Ktulu (Jun 20, 2009)

Other than the Hezrou, I'm hoping for at least one of every mini in this set.  Very good looking.


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## fba827 (Jun 20, 2009)

I don't collect minis but I am seriously considering getting a certain one just to be used as a paperweight on my desk ....


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## mykelsss (Jun 20, 2009)

CasvalRemDeikun said:


> No they don't, they have four legs in every picture.  Look at Nefermandias, he is a four-legged brown.  The dragon on page 169 has his/her hind legs curled up underneath the front legs.




Ahhh, I see it now. Completely missed Nefermandias.

By the way everyone there is also a preview of the Player's Handbook Heroes Series 2 off the same page. Not quite complete yet, though.

DDM Spoilers by Greyhaze


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## deadsmurf (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm pretty sure I want at least one of each visible pack.
This set looks quite good. great even.  Not quite as good as Giants of Legend, but that was one of the highest points of the entire line.


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## thecasualoblivion (Jun 20, 2009)

I think I have to call the Elder Green Dragon the best Dragon sculpt DDM has ever done. Damn.


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## fba827 (Jun 20, 2009)

thecasualoblivion said:


> I think I have to call the Elder Green Dragon the best Dragon sculpt DDM has ever done. Damn.




The pose is frightening AND it's a HUGE - imagine _that_ taking up so many squares on the battle mat... scary i tell you, scary!


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## WhatGravitas (Jun 20, 2009)

Whoa, they're awesome! Almost all minis are a good choice and all visibles are basically awesome must-haves. That probably ensures that people want to get one of each! Which is a good strategy - and one that I like! 

Cheers, LT.


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## Invisible Stalker (Jun 20, 2009)

Very nice set, I love the visibles and the commons.


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## mykelsss (Jun 20, 2009)

Lord Tirian said:


> Whoa, they're awesome! Almost all minis are a good choice and all visibles are basically awesome must-haves. That probably ensures that people want to get one of each! Which is a good strategy - and one that I like!
> 
> Cheers, LT.




Yeah, cheers to Wizards for delivering on their "50% more painting steps!!" promise. I imagine that this set will sell VERY well with the iconic D&D miniatures showcased in each box. Hopefully that'll mean more huge sets down the road!


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## Klaus (Jun 20, 2009)

The Green Dragon is at least 14 kinds of awesome!

If it weren't Large, the Sivak draconian would be perfect for a dragonborn PC in my campaign!

Love the Brown Dragon, the Rimefire Griffon and the Storm Titan.

In the Heroes page, I definitely want the Dragonborn Warlord.

I'd hazard a guess that the 3rd figure in Martial Heroes 4 is a Dragonborn Ranger.


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## Jack99 (Jun 21, 2009)

All I can say is wow. I will definitely be getting quite a few of these.


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## mach1.9pants (Jun 21, 2009)

Me too, I want lots of spawn!


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## Huw (Jun 21, 2009)

Some good reprints (recasts?) there. Best of all, Beholder, Balor and Green Dragon all as visibles!

Seen the character pack PHH2? Not quite as impressive. Looks like the repaint policy is still very much in place.


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## thecasualoblivion (Jun 21, 2009)

Couple decent miniatures for PCs in there:

Aurak Draconian is probably the best substitute for a Dragonborn spellcaster I've seen
Bolraza, Priestess of Bane I could see used for an edgy violent Elf/Eladrin PC
Doom Dreamer is a pretty decent generic spellcaster
The two Githzerai are both quality PC miniatures when the race becomes available for PHB3
Human Rabble is borderline, but a good figure for a Ruthless Ruffian Rogue.
Minotaur Thug could work for a less tankish Minotaur PC, but this one is borderline


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## Festivus (Jun 21, 2009)

Peter, thanks for a huge green dragon finally!  Because it's visible means I'll probably buy that box.


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## Mark (Jun 21, 2009)

Note the "Another Perspective" link at the end of the gallery?


Head Injury Theatre


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## JohnnyQuest (Jun 21, 2009)

Huw said:


> Seen the character pack PHH2? Not quite as impressive. Looks like the repaint policy is still very much in place.




It's not really a policy. It's just that the change in packaging required 36 PC sculpts for the first two series of Player's Handbook Heroes. Given that production time can be up to one year, and the fact that the already-produced sets didn't have that many PC sculpts, there was a need to use existing molds for some minis in the first two series (four in PHH1, five in PHH2). From here on, we won't see any more repaints.


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## megamania (Jun 21, 2009)

Awesome looking set!


A good mix of classic creatures and newer 4e creatures.


That Goblin Cutter is awesome!   and a common no less

The Storm Giant will be a first come first purchase in the stores.

The Brown dragon looks good and green has a nice pose (even with the spikes)


Looks like I'm back into buying figures.   Not sure if that is good or bad....


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## DaveMage (Jun 21, 2009)

Wow - some nice looking ones in there.  Not quite enough to buy a case, but lots of singles.

After the first MM set, which I bought only a few singles, this one looks much better.

As a 3.x player, not all of them are useful, but that Psychic Sentinel can certainly be used as a ruby golem.

Let's see....

1. Adult brown dragon - cool
3. Aurak Draconian - Good
4. Balor - nice
5. Barghest - servicable
6. Huge beholder - excellent
12 & 13 - Duergars - servicable
15. Huge Green Dragon - very nice
16. Elder Iron Dragon - Usable
24. Goristro - I'll take 4
30. Psychic Sentinel (this will be a ruby golem for me)
31. Remorhaz - about time
33. Salamander (2 please)
34. Scarecrow (kind of an ugly mini, but servicable)
35. Sivak Draconian - nice to have
38. Talon Slaad (as a Blue Slaad)
40. Yochlol (finally! I'll take 4!)

No use: Air Archon Zephyrhaunt, priestess of bane, chillfire destroyer (any ideas how to use this, 3.5 fans?), chull (already have that), djinn (already have a djinn), doom dreamer (boring), earth archon, foulspawns, frost titan, githzerai (plenty from earlier sets), goblin (plenty from earlier sets), hezrou (the hezrou from a previous set is my all-time favorite mini, so no use for this one), swarm, human, irontooth, minotaur, griffon, slaad spawn (no use for 3.x), war troll (have enough trolls).

So I have use for 17 of 40.


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## doctorhook (Jun 21, 2009)

fba827 said:


> The pose is frightening AND it's a HUGE - imagine _that_ taking up so many squares on the battle mat... scary i tell you, scary!



I love the pose, I just wish it fit on its base a little better! There's nothing that annoys me more than a mini that takes up the space adjacent to it... Let's sculpt "up" not "out"!


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## doctorhook (Jun 21, 2009)

mykelsss said:


> 6. The Horrid Scarab Larva Swarm looks like a pile of coins. Could make for a nifty trap idea. Or not, hahah.



Personally, I think the person who posted the spoilers must have got the name of that mini wrong: *Hoard* scarab swarms (not "*Horrid*" scarab swarms) are a monster that's supposed to resemble a pile of coins. Thus, I don't think the appearance of the mini is a coincidence.


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## mykelsss (Jun 21, 2009)

doctorhook said:


> Personally, I think the person who posted the spoilers must have got the name of that mini wrong: *Hoard* scarab swarms (not "*Horrid*" scarab swarms) are a monster that's supposed to resemble a pile of coins. Thus, I don't think the appearance of the mini is a coincidence.




Ahhhh, that makes much more sense.


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## Kunimatyu (Jun 21, 2009)

Others may disagree, but this may be one of the best DDM sets *ever* produced, especially if those are production paintjobs (and they likely are).

It's also likely the best Huge set ever produced - all eight Huges either kick ass or are incredibly useful, which has basically never been true before.

Giants of Legend had a few figures with amazing paintjobs (Lareth, Soth, Rakshasa, and....Grick, oddly) but there were also some really, really crappy figures (slaad, minotaur skeleton) and a huge proportion of non-monster figs.


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## Mark (Jun 21, 2009)

The Balor, Elder Green Dragon, Elder Iron Dragon, and Storm Titan are the visibles I like and am likely to get.


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## Huw (Jun 21, 2009)

JohnnyQuest said:


> It's not really a policy. It's just that the change in packaging required 36 PC sculpts for the first two series of Player's Handbook Heroes. Given that production time can be up to one year, and the fact that the already-produced sets didn't have that many PC sculpts, there was a need to use existing molds for some minis in the first two series (four in PHH1, five in PHH2). From here on, we won't see any more repaints.




Now that is good news. Thanks for the info. Now I'm actually looking forward to PHH3


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## humble minion (Jun 22, 2009)

First time for ages I'll be buying a few of these.

The Green Dragon is absolutely _perfect_ for my campaign right now (3.5, but for a mini this beautiful I can live with the silly nose horn!), and the Beholder Tyrant, Djinn, Human Rabble, the pile of coins (yeah, it's supposed to be a swarm, but that's not what people will use it for...), the two duergar, the Remorhaz, the Balor, the Chuul, the Goristro, the Hezrou and the Salamander are all great.  Hell, the two slaad and the Earth Archon don't even exist in the edition of the rules that I'm using, but I'll invent a bunch of stats for them regardless just cos the minis look so nice...


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## Invisible Stalker (Jun 22, 2009)

Now to revise and extend my remarks.

ADULT BROWN DRAGON - new dragon that I want to try out, nice standard pose and I like the look of his scales ****
AIR ARCHON ZEPHYRHAUNT - not even I'm convinced elementals need armor and weapons, look is a bit meh **1/2 
AURAK DRACONIAN - say hello to my dragonborn sorcerer! excellent! ****1/2
BALOR - visible #1 is great, among the best of the set *****
BARGHEST SAVAGER - pretty good, won't go out of my way to get one ***
BEHOLDER ULTIMATE TYRANT - visible #2, I like the look of the one I just got best of all, but this one's base should hopefully be better. I still like the look and will be getting one ****
BOLRAZA, PRIESTESS OF BANE - love the pose and the look, the bad guys are about to get a new enforcer ****
CHILLFIRE DESTROYER - I love clear plastic minis and this one looks really good, possible invisible stalker??? ****1/2
CHUUL - don't have the old one, but I'll be making room for this one **** 
DJINN STORMSWORD - love it, especially the top half ****1/2
DOOMDREAMER - I can never have too many cultists and this one of the best ones yet, and a common ****1/2
DUERGAR CLERIC OF ASMODEUS - leader for my duergar, love the pose ****
DUERGAR GUARD - the hammer is a little large, but this common is still ok ***
EARTH ARCHON RUMBLER - much better than the other archon, possibly because the armor stands out better ****
ELDER GREEN DRAGON - visible #3, awesome! I can practically smell the chlorine gas *****
ELDER IRON DRAGON - visible #4, It's Rodan! This one is just great for me, but I agree the hydra would have been the better choice for most ****1/2
FOULSPAWN HULK - figure is fine, I'm not sure I'll be getting one ***
FOULSPAWN MANGLER - this one I like, he seems like a gentleman and really evil all at once ****
FOULSPAWN SEER - I like the accessories on this one ***
FROST TITAN - visible #5, more like an ice titan, I love the clear plastic on the body and the ice axe, the pose is great ****1/2 for a non sticky one
GITHZERAI CENOBITE - gith BAH! and this one's boring *1/2
GITHZERAI MINDMAGE - BAH!, much better pose though **1/2
GOBIN CUTTER - great common and one of the best goblins *****
GORISTRO - visible #6, my least favorite of the visibles but it's still a good mini ****
HEZROU - I'll be needing one of these and it looks great, nice power glove ****
HORAD SCARAB LARVA SWARM - also known as PILE OF GOLD COINS, it will probably cost a lot of gold coins for this common ****1/2
HUMAN RABBLE - nice basic common guy with a club, very useful ****
IRONTOOTH - about a year too late, but an excellent mini *****
MINOTAUR THUG - I welcome the minotaur minion ***
PSYCHIC SENTINEL - he's too big to be the Human Torch, but I still like this mini ***
REMORHAZ - visible #7, like the rust monster this is a classic I wanted badly and done to perfection, once again WOTC comes through ***** 
RIMEFIRE GRIFFON - albino griffon, maybe at the right price ***
SALAMANDER FIRETAIL - always up for a good salamander and this fits the bill nicely ****1/2
SCARECROW STALKER - not sure about this one, but it's a little different ***
SIVAK DRACONIAN - my evil dragonborn NPC boss! gimme gimme *****
SLAAD SPAWN - awwww, nice ugly common little evil minion ****
STORM TITAN - visible #8, best mini of the set, jaw dropping perfection ***** 
TALON SLAAD - good for a slaad, but it's a reminder of how much I hate that cigar chomping midget from the X-Men ***
WAR TROLL - it's a good mini, but I'm kind of full up on trolls at the moment ****
YOCHLOL TEMPTER - why is Hedora yellow? it's weird, but I want one ***1/2

28/40 rate 4 stars or above, I'd say I'm going to love this set.


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## Nai_Calus (Jun 22, 2009)

Man, that Storm Titan looks awesome. I have no use for monster minis and I still want one.

The second bout of PHH looks so far to not have a single thing I'd even remotely want. The Genasi is pretty headscratchy though.

I'm still clinging to my dream of them someday doing a male Eladrin that can reasonably be claimed to be a Swordmage. The likelihood that it would be blonde with green eyes and wearing purple is slim, but even in the wrong colours it'd still work. Even Reaper doesn't really have anything that works for me on that, and I don't have the eyesight to paint my own anyway. (I've tried painting other larger things before, and it does not work at all. My lack of depth perception kills it.)


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## chaotix42 (Jun 22, 2009)

I must chime in with the Storm Titan love, that dude is just impressive. All of the huge minis have me very excited! Sign for up for one case & some extras please!


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## Quantarum (Jun 22, 2009)

Color me impressed, I'm in for a case.

-Q.


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## Riley (Jun 22, 2009)

Quantarum said:


> Color me impressed, I'm in for a case.
> 
> -Q.




Ditto - and I've limited myself to picking up a few singles from the last few sets.  

Actually, make that a case + 3 more boosters, containing: Balor, Green Dragon, and Storm Titan.

Nice job, Wizards!


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## Rhuarc (Jun 22, 2009)

Just great! Have to get many of them, they are too good to be passed on, especially the huge minis! 
Too bad it takes two more month until they arrive...


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## Nebulous (Jun 22, 2009)

Goddang it.  There are two sweet looking duergar in there i'd love to use for Thunderspire, but i don't think this set will be out in time.   Otherwise, yeah, there are a lot of must-haves in there.  I wish i didn't love minis so much


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## Beckett (Jun 22, 2009)

*open mouthed gape*

Visible balor? Oh, yes. The rest look good too. Time to budget in a case.

It's too bad the module minis keep showing up too late.

And I'd be willing to bet good money on Dragonlance for the 2010 setting.


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## Logan_Bonner (Jun 22, 2009)

DaveMage said:


> No use: Air Archon Zephyrhaunt, priestess of bane, chillfire destroyer (any ideas how to use this, 3.5 fans?), chull (already have that), djinn (already have a djinn), doom dreamer (boring), earth archon, foulspawns, frost titan, githzerai (plenty from earlier sets), goblin (plenty from earlier sets), hezrou (the hezrou from a previous set is my all-time favorite mini, so no use for this one), swarm, human, irontooth, minotaur, griffon, slaad spawn (no use for 3.x), war troll (have enough trolls).




FYI, the foulspawn are in 3.5. They're called ushemoi and appear in _MM5_.


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## Beckett (Jun 22, 2009)

Looking at the Hero pages, it confirms my suspicions from seeing the boxes on Amazon- we're still getting a repaint per pack. As much as I'd like to see all new models, it does seem to be an inexpensive way of getting some of the older minis (the dragonborn warlord goes for a fair amount as its original, the dragonborn fighter). It does give me a little regret for buying the frenzied berserker recently (the repaint is the last one in Primal 2). Same order, I bought the Cleric of Sune, also receiving a repaint in this set (although the Cleric was a lot cheaper than the berserker).


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## Agamon (Jun 22, 2009)

Another beholder?  Is that really necessary?  I already have 2, which is one more than I need.  I guess this is a huge tyrant, so I guess...same with the balor, looks nice, got one already.  Maybe someday the party will face one, but two?  Where's the hydra?

Whining aside, there, I like the dragons, the remorhaz, and the titans.  Awesome.  I told myself that the least set was the last set for me, but I'll have to rethink that.  Maybe I'll just grab the huges, I dunno.


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## coyote6 (Jun 23, 2009)

Me, I'm happy to see a balor. I have one, but the PCs in my group might find themselves meeting a couple soon, so a second would be fine with me. When does this set hit the streets, again?


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## Herschel (Jun 23, 2009)

Nai_Calus said:


> I'm still clinging to my dream of them someday doing a male Eladrin that can reasonably be claimed to be a Swordmage.




Bralani Eladrin from Blood War.


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## thecasualoblivion (Jun 23, 2009)

Herschel said:


> Bralani Eladrin from Blood War.




And boy does that figure see a lot of use when you have it. It kind of becomes the default male elf/eladrin figure for any character who swings a weapon. I've seen it selected for PC use on about 6-7 characters so far.


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## DaveMage (Jun 23, 2009)

WotC_Logan said:


> FYI, the foulspawn are in 3.5. They're called ushemoi and appear in _MM5_.




Ah!

Excellent.

Thanks for the info.


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## Herschel (Jun 23, 2009)

Wow, for all the complaining and whining about the old distribution system and anything that was even slightly good for skirmishers and now we get a great looking set with the ditribution more what RPG-only people wanted and it has trouble getting three pages of discussion?


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## coyote6 (Jun 23, 2009)

Well, it is only previews and leaks, still. There may be more to say when they actually come out.

Edit: besides, now it's _four_ pages!


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## avin (Jun 23, 2009)

Dude, Foulspawn Mangler is going to cost a fortune...


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## Huw (Jun 23, 2009)

Herschel said:


> Wow, for all the complaining and whining about the old distribution system and anything that was even slightly good for skirmishers and now we get a great looking set with the ditribution more what RPG-only people wanted and it has trouble getting three pages of discussion?




That's because people love to complain. Consider the silence like a lot of nodding heads at a good speech.

Personally, I'm only going to complain that for the first time in two years, I'm actually going to spend money on miniatures that are not on ebay.


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## samursus (Jun 23, 2009)

Anyone know if you order a case, would you get each one of the visibles?  Also where a good place to order a case in Canada if anyone knows of one, would be great.

Thanks.

PS: I do know that they aren't out until August


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## Peter Lee (Jun 24, 2009)

Short of packaging mistakes, one case gets you one of each visible miniature.


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## Riley (Jun 24, 2009)

If you buy a case, you will get:

- 6 visible huges (6 of 6)
- 6 large rares (6 of 12)
- 6 medium rares (6 of 12)
- 12 commons (12 of 8)

Assuming the miniatures in the case are distributed in the same manner as in previous series, there will be no duplicates of any of the huges or rares in the case.  You should also end up with 2 copies of 4 of the commons, and only 1 each of the other 4 commons.


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## Riley (Jun 24, 2009)

This is one good place to get a case:
Dungeons & Dragons Booster Packs and Cases

I'm sure there are others.


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## Peter Lee (Jun 24, 2009)

Riley said:


> If you buy a case, you will get:
> 
> - 6 visible huges (6 of 6)
> - 6 large rares (6 of 12)
> ...




Not quite, there are 8 boosters in a case.  One case will get you:

- 8 visible huges (8 of 8)
- 8 large rares (8 of 12)
- 8 medium (or small) rares (8 of 12)
- 16 commons (16 of 8)


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## Riley (Jun 24, 2009)

Hmmm.  I was going by this page:
Dungeons & Dragons Legendary Evils Booster Case (Preorder)

Near the bottom, it says: "6 booster packs per case"

...but you're right, there do seem to be 8 visibles in the set, so I guess that does make 8 packs per case.


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## Peter Lee (Jun 24, 2009)

That was the old huge set distribution.


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## El Mahdi (Jun 24, 2009)

Sorry, this is the first I've seen of this thread (I've been a little remis in my ENWorld reading recently), so I apologize for coming into the conversation late.

This set looks really good.  There are a few in there that are a little _meh_, but there are a lot more that are home runs.  Mr. Lee, I think your efforts are beginning to pay off.  These are really well done.  The Dungeon Delves and PHB Heroes were good also but the redo's (although being upfront about them and really not having a choice) kind of lowered the grade for them a bit in my eyes.  But this set looks like it could end up being one of the best sets of all the D&D minis sets.  Very well done.  I'm looking forward to more.


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## Riley (Jun 24, 2009)

I really like the distribution with this set - I much prefer getting 2/3 of the rares in a single case instead of the 1/2 in previous sets.


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## doctorhook (Jun 24, 2009)

This stupid bloody set is starting to get on my nerves. Between the creatures, the sculpts, and the distribution, these damned Legendary Evils might have me doing what I said I wouldn't do anymore: spend money on D&D Minis.

I can hear the Visa-man already...


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## Klaus (Jun 24, 2009)

Peter Lee said:


> Not quite, there are 8 boosters in a case.  One case will get you:
> 
> - 8 visible huges (8 of 8)
> - 8 large rares (8 of 12)
> ...



How much is a case going for?


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## Pseudopsyche (Jun 24, 2009)

Klaus said:


> How much is a case going for?



CoolStuffInc.com seems to be taking preorders at $100.  For comparison, I bought a sealed case of Dangerous Delves from them for $75 plus about $10 shipping.


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 24, 2009)

JohnnyQuest said:


> It's not really a policy. It's just that the change in packaging required 36 PC sculpts for the first two series of Player's Handbook Heroes. Given that production time can be up to one year, and the fact that the already-produced sets didn't have that many PC sculpts, there was a need to use existing molds for some minis in the first two series (four in PHH1, five in PHH2). From here on, we won't see any more repaints.




Up to one year?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but when did anyone working on the miniature side of things know that dragonborn were gong to be a core race?

Unless this preview is completely off, there is one dragonborn and it's another warrior based dragonborn. If anything was going to be repainted, perhaps... you know, the dragonborn in previous sets that were also rare? Maybe?

In the new set, there are more warforged. There are an equal number of gensai and tieflings.

For a company that's trying to push new things in the core book, they've done a terrible job of supporting miniature use for that core race of the dragonborn.


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## Herschel (Jun 25, 2009)

There are a metric crap ton of Dragonborn miniatures. In 3.0, they were Half-Dragon Templated but look the same. The Dragonborn Warlord is a repaint of a very nice Giants of Legend miniature. The Gold Champion from back in Dragoneye is a good figure, etc., etc.


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## Logan_Bonner (Jun 25, 2009)

Making a dragonborn mini also requires concept art we're happy with (which we didn't get until late in the process). We also need to get sculpts that look good. If we don't have both of those, it delays the release of dragonborn minis.


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## JohnnyQuest (Jun 25, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> Up to one year?
> 
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding but when did anyone working on the miniature side of things know that dragonborn were gong to be a core race?




Joe, I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you rephrase?



> Unless this preview is completely off, there is one dragonborn and it's another warrior based dragonborn. If anything was going to be repainted, perhaps... you know, the dragonborn in previous sets that were also rare? Maybe?




Again, I'm not sure I understand your meaning entirely, but it makes sense to me to offer up an older sculpt that is harder to get, rather than something produced more recently.


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 25, 2009)

JohnnyQuest said:


> Joe, I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you rephrase?




At what point in the development of the D&D 4e core rules did they know what Dragonborn were going to be a core race? If we assume that 4e was in the works for at least two years, I find it hard to believe that they were 'snuck' into the book at the last minute. This is especially true when the art preview book that came out many months before the actually rules had them in it. If the lead time is a year, I'm thinking, that there has to be some point where the D&D game, well out after a year now, has an unnatural shortage of a core race.



JohnnyQuest said:


> Again, I'm not sure I understand your meaning entirely, but it makes sense to me to offer up an older sculpt that is harder to get, rather than something produced more recently.




That with the dearth of Dragonborn miniatures, instead of some of these odd choices, if they are correct, like combat medic I believe one of them is (human?) that more effort should have been put into making the dragonborn random miniatures into regular non-collectible miniatures.



			
				Herschel said:
			
		

> The Dragonborn Warlord is a repaint of a very nice Giants of Legend miniature.




Which one? I'm looking over the Giants of Legend and don't see it. Any help on that one? War of the Dragon Queen has a Dragonborn. Look pretty similiar. If so I'll give a thumbs up on that selection as it's the only 1 of 18 figures that's a dragonborn.   I'll disagree with the other figures being anyother other than a proxy.



			
				WotC_Logan said:
			
		

> Making a dragonborn mini also requires concept art we're happy with (which we didn't get until late in the process). We also need to get sculpts that look good. If we don't have both of those, it delays the release of dragonborn minis.




Logan, thanks for responding. The only 'thing' I'd hold against this is that there have been dozens of wretched figures that have made their way out where the sculpts could not have looked good. The dwarf guard of mithral hall is a fairly recent example of that.  Not only is it not a good sculpt, it's completely out of scale with most other dwarves. The grillion that's squatting down is an example of a sculpt people were satisfied with from the Demonweb set? I'm just not seeing this quality control on even recent releases. 


If we're talking about a race, like dwarves, elves, even halflings, that have a lot of coverage that you'd want to shut down an inferior model but with one where you don't have anything resembling solid coverage? Let those puppies through. 

To say that there is not solid concept art, when WoTC was charging people for preview books that seemed that it could easily do dual roles as concept art? Or the art in the Player's Handbook, Forgotten Realms core book, etc.. .etc... etc... One quick example, on page 54 of the adventurer's vault, which came out in Sept 2008 (and who knows when the art was first commissioned), there is a great picture of a female dragonborn spellcaster. Another example, Uune 2008, Player's Handbook, page 294. Great picture of a dragonborn charging. Unless the miniature department is completely isoldated from the RPG department, which I suppose is possible, that makes very little sense that there would be no art worthy of putting into sculpt. 

Or that the sculpts were bad? Maybe it is the better move to make no dragonborn as opposed to bad dragonborn but based on some of the figs still coming out in this last set, my opinion as a buyer who has two seperate players at the moment with Dragonborn, neither of them a female rogue, I'd say no.


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## Peter Lee (Jun 25, 2009)

Joe, if you want firm numbers, 6 dragonborn miniatures have been killed because of concept art, sketch, and sculpting issues.  Most of these figures were killed before I arrived at the company so I don't have the full story, but I do know around half of those figures were killed because they were based off concept art that didn't work out.

For Legendary Evils, the production time for miniatures was around 18 months.  (It's much sorter now.)  It's probably 16-15 months after the sketch phase was complete.  Art  is one of the first things done for miniatures, and one of the last things done for an RPG product.


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## Herschel (Jun 25, 2009)

Wrong huge set, it was WotDQ. Also, there's the Greenspawn Zealot, Redspawn Arcanis for other Dragonborn roles that work well and are fairly recent uncommons. Later sets include Defender, Paladin and Myrmidon. There is no "dearth" of Dragonborn.


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## Olaf the Stout (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm a huge fan of this set (no pun intended).  All the visible minis are huge and they are all great minis to get.  A Huge Blue Dragon instead of a Huge Iron Dragon would have been nice but I can deal.  The people at WotC definitely hit a home run with this set.

I'm not really impressed about having to pay the same amount for 8 less minis (40 minis per case compared to 48 minis per case in the last huge set), but at least I know that (excluding a packaging stuff-up) I can be sure of getting one of each Huge mini.  And if the minis look better than previous huge sets then it should be worth it.

I'll definitely be buying a case of these.

Olaf the Stout


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 25, 2009)

Peter Lee said:


> Joe, if you want firm numbers, 6 dragonborn miniatures have been killed because of concept art, sketch, and sculpting issues.  Most of these figures were killed before I arrived at the company so I don't have the full story, but I do know around half of those figures were killed because they were based off concept art that didn't work out.
> 
> For Legendary Evils, the production time for miniatures was around 18 months.  (It's much sorter now.)  It's probably 16-15 months after the sketch phase was complete.  Art  is one of the first things done for miniatures, and one of the last things done for an RPG product.




Thanks for the information.

From a fan standpoint, it just seems very weird that there are so many pose style illustrations win the RPG, some of them 1+ year old on the shelves now, and still issues with that part of the process. As someone just reading what's typed about the process, you'd think there would be far more synergry between the two (RPG/Miniature.)


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## CharlesRyan (Jun 25, 2009)

Olaf the Stout said:


> I'm not really impressed about having to pay the same amount for 8 less minis (40 minis per case compared to 48 minis per case in the last huge set), but at least I know that (excluding a packaging stuff-up) I can be sure of getting one of each Huge mini.




There are two other things you can be sure of:


All of the minis will be monsters.
All of the minis will be RPG-oriented (not in the set due to the demands of a skirmish game).
[Three things! The three things you can be sure of . . . I'll come in again.] The number of paint steps (and hence, presumably, the quality of the paint jobs) is higher.

The first two alone are worth the price of admission, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather pay for 40 minis I'm really likely to want instead of 48 minis I might want.


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 25, 2009)

I'll disagree with that first and third. 

The minotaur minis are meant for player use. Ghaelee of Winter?  Yeah, that's a PC. Drow? And with previews of PHBIII, the giths of different races will probably be PC types as well. 

In the current set, the number of paint steps doesn't seem to be vastly superior to older models on every figure. Bloodseeker Drake, Kruthik, Blood Scarab, Clay Golem and several others look to be primarily one color. 



CharlesRyan said:


> There are two other things you can be sure of:
> 
> 
> All of the minis will be monsters.
> ...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 25, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> I'll disagree with that first and third.
> 
> The minotaur minis are meant for player use. *Ghaelee of Winter*?



It is a monster manual creature. And so are the Minotaurs. 

Most humanoid monsters can also be used for players, of course.


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 25, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> It is a monster manual creature. And so are the Minotaurs.
> 
> Most humanoid monsters can also be used for players, of course.




True to both.

But all the minis are not monsters.

Monsters are things that won't wind up being used as players.

Narrow definition but that's what I'm rolling with.

Edit: And the reason I say that is because Humans are also a Monster Manual creature. As are Elves, Eladrin, etc... If the only defintion of monster is that it's in the Monster Manual, you're left with EVERYTHING being a monster.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 25, 2009)

The differenence between monster and PC miniatures is this: 
PC miniatures are miniatures of playable races that are denoted with a class. Like "Warforged Artificer" vs "Bugbear Strangler". You might some day be able to play a Bugbear, but Strangler is not a class. 


Spoiler



No, you don't need to take this too seriously. Your definition might work, too. But it would mean that if I need humanoid monsters, I'd need to spend money for the Hero miniatures because they are not contained in the "Monster" Minis.


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## Herschel (Jun 25, 2009)

CharlesRyan said:


> There are two other things you can be sure of:
> 
> All of the minis will be RPG-oriented (not in the set due to the demands of a skirmish game).




I take particular offense to this statement. Skirmish was about figure stats that were playable, not the actual mini itself. What, we skirmishers played some sort of different D&D with alternate races just to screw you over? Posts like this are why there was so much hatred towards  misguided rpg-only types.


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## avin (Jun 25, 2009)

What I really want to know is which Wotc employee has a girlfriend/wife/daughter who plays a female dragonborn rogue using yellow leather? 

Cleric, Paladin, Fighter and many others are the really useful choices to be in PHH for Dragonborns. Rogue makes no sense.


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## Klaus (Jun 25, 2009)

Peter Lee said:


> Joe, if you want firm numbers, 6 dragonborn miniatures have been killed because of concept art, sketch, and sculpting issues.  Most of these figures were killed before I arrived at the company so I don't have the full story, but I do know around half of those figures were killed because they were based off concept art that didn't work out.
> 
> For Legendary Evils, the production time for miniatures was around 18 months.  (It's much sorter now.)  It's probably 16-15 months after the sketch phase was complete.  Art  is one of the first things done for miniatures, and one of the last things done for an RPG product.



Can I help?



I actually got info that the CAD sculpting make the sketches obsolete. If that's not the case, I'd love to contribute.


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## avin (Jun 25, 2009)

I guess the sketches are still necessary, CAD sculpting is based on concept art, but it's better Logan or Peter to confirm that...


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## JohnnyQuest (Jun 25, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> At what point in the development of the D&D 4e core rules did they know what Dragonborn were going to be a core race?




Ah, I get it now. You were asking me a question that was tangential to the point I was making (i.e. why there are repaints) and the answer to which I couldn't possibly know


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## Olaf the Stout (Jun 26, 2009)

CharlesRyan said:


> There are two other things you can be sure of:
> 
> 
> All of the minis will be monsters.
> ...




While I still don't like the fact that I am getting less minis for my money, I do like the way sets are done now a whole lot more.  It really used to suck when half the rares you got in a case were humans, elves, halflings, etc.  When that spot could have just as easily been a large dragon, beholder, or some other awesome monster you couldn't help but feel a little bit disappointed.  Now you know it will be nothing but monsters (or close to it - I don't want to buy into the monster/PC argument), which is definitely great.

The paint steps, I don't know about.  I do know that this set looks better than the last one and definitely better than Demonweb.  However that may be because the sculpts are better as the designers get used to creating the minis via CAD (I hope that was the reason for the downturn in mini quality because a couple of the sets after Unhallowed were pretty woeful).

I am also not sure if the minis in the spoilers are production minis or not (the pics are from an eBay auction so who knows if they are production minis or not).  I'll reserve my final judgement until the minis are in hand.  Things definitely look like they are on the way back up now though.

Olaf the Stout


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## pawsplay (Jun 26, 2009)

Some nice stuff. Obviously, as a 3.5 dude, I can think of about squat to do with a bunch of Archons ("dress up day for elementals," is what I say), but I'm super happy about a beholder with ten stalks. I know they did that just for me. Nice green dragon... I'm glad they toned down the tree snake pointy nose thing. 

As far as the PCs go, I'm not excited, but it does look like a better lot. I have no idea what I would do with a male halfling barbarian or the hillbilly ranger, but it's nice to see a little more variety. The human female warlord is welcome, but I can't shake the impression I've seen her before. Repaint? Reused pose? Does anyone know?


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## Peter Lee (Jun 26, 2009)

She was originally Alusair Obarskyr released in Aberrations.


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## humble minion (Jun 26, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> Nice green dragon... I'm glad they toned down the tree snake pointy nose thing.




I think the pointy nose thing is still there in all its pointy glory, but the angle of the photo manages to hide it somewhat.

Still the rest of it looks so damn nice than I can live with the pointynosiness!


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## doctorhook (Jun 26, 2009)

I don't understand the hate-on for that pointy nose on the Green Dragon. People don't complain about the Blue Dragon's huge nose horn (which looks a bit weird if you're not used to it), so why are they all up on Green Dragons?


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## CharlesRyan (Jun 26, 2009)

Herschel said:


> I take particular offense to this statement. Skirmish was about figure stats that were playable, not the actual mini itself. What, we skirmishers played some sort of different D&D with alternate races just to screw you over? Posts like this are why there was so much hatred towards  misguided rpg-only types.




Sorry to have caused offense.

I think any time a product line has to serve multiple masters, it ends up losing some focus and not serving any of them to perfection.

The DDM line now serves only one master. Hence, I believe it will now do a better job at serving that particular master, which was my point. Obviously, it will also do a worse job at serving the skirmish game master, and if you're into the skirmish game I can understand your frustration.

But for RPG players, this increased value offsets the increased price, at least in part.


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## pawsplay (Jun 26, 2009)

Peter Lee said:


> She was originally Alusair Obarskyr released in Aberrations.




Ah, yes. She used to abuse my orc legions. That nasty little so-and-so. It's so sad, her maiden name was Alusair Smith. She shoulda kept it.


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## Klaus (Jun 27, 2009)

doctorhook said:


> I don't understand the hate-on for that pointy nose on the Green Dragon. People don't complain about the Blue Dragon's huge nose horn (which looks a bit weird if you're not used to it), so why are they all up on Green Dragons?



The blue has a rhino-like horn that fits its look. The green has a flimsy nose-spike that doesn't really fit. Granted, it looks better in some depictions, not so much in others.


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## Shroomy (Jun 27, 2009)

This month's _Dragon_ features a Bestiary article entitled "Legendary Evils."  I didn't make the connection until now, but this article must be in the vein of "Dangers of the Demonweb."  I wonder which monsters from this set will get full 4e stats.


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## Fifth Element (Jun 27, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> But all the minis are not monsters.
> 
> Monsters are things that won't wind up being used as players.
> 
> Narrow definition but that's what I'm rolling with.



So...you're disagreeing with Mr. Lee because you're using a different definition of "monster" than he is.



JoeGKushner said:


> Edit: And the reason I say that is because Humans are also a Monster Manual creature. As are Elves, Eladrin, etc... If the only defintion of monster is that it's in the Monster Manual, you're left with EVERYTHING being a monster.



Okay, how about a "monster" being defined as a creature *not* detailed in a PHB? Now we're back on track.


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 27, 2009)

Fifth Element said:


> So...you're disagreeing with Mr. Lee because you're using a different definition of "monster" than he is.
> 
> 
> Okay, how about a "monster" being defined as a creature *not* detailed in a PHB? Now we're back on track.




So the ghalee of winter, an elardin, and in the PHB minotaurs and gith races eh?


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