# Converting World of Greyhawk monsters



## BOZ (Jan 1, 2004)

This thread continues my idea of "cooperative conversions" started in this thread, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that first appeared in various World of Greyhawk products.

What I will do is first post the creature's original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it's done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

The following is a list of monsters from Greyhawk that haven't yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog. You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when. If I'm missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.

* WG9 - Gargoyle
Gargoyle of the Tors

* WG12 - Vale of the Mage
Jaleeda Bird
Jakar
Griveling
Grist (True Gargoyle)

* WGA1 - Falcon's Revenge
Scryxull
Grythok
Carpet Snake

* WGA2 - Falconmaster
Strangleweed
Weisshund
Yphoz

WGA3 - Flames of the Falcon
Fish (4 varieties)

* WG4 - Vecna Lives
The Demigod Vecna
The Avatar of Vecna

* WGR3 - Rary the Traitor
Manscorpion
Monarch Scorpion

* SJR6 - Greyspace
Horg
Porton
Skykine

Scarlet Brotherhood
Tlokasazotz (Olman Bat-Vampire)
Thousandtooth
Su-Monkey
Ravenous
Onco
Gibbering Mouther, Greater
Bredthralls (slave races)- Komazar, Kurg, Rullhow


* Dragon #241, Legacies of the Suel Imperium
Lerara
Su-Doppleganger

Dragon #270, Dragon's Bestiary "Minions of Iuz" (is this 3e?)
Dirtwraith (Sargusian Fungus)
Murdakus


* - I actually have this one!


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## BOZ (Jan 1, 2004)

i'm sure there are more monsters, probably from modules and other sourcebooks that i don't have or haven't looked in, so list em if you can.  

any suggestions on what to start with?


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## Filby (Jan 1, 2004)

Here's a few other creatures from 2E Greyhawk...

Rary the Traitor (WGR3)
Centaur, Desert (I think this may have appeared in the last Polyhedron?)
Manscorpion (converted as the stinger in MoF)
Monarch Scorpion
Monarch Scorpion, Master Scorpion

Vale of the Mage (WG12)
Grist (True Gargoyle)
Griveling
Jakar
Jaleeda Bird

Vecna Lives (WGA4)
The Eye
The Hand


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2004)

A few more:

WGA1 - Falcon's Revenge
Scryxull, Grythok, Carpet Snake

WGA2 - Falconmaster
Strangleweed, Weisshund, Yphoz


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## BOZ (Jan 3, 2004)

it's a short list; why not start at the top and work our way down?  

Crystalmist

CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Temperate and subtropical/Mountains
FREQUENCY:	Uncommon
ORGANIZATION:	Swarm
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Night
DIET:	Special
INTELLIGENCE:	Non- (0)/Animal (1)
TREASURE:	Nil
ALIGNMENT:	Neutral

NO. APPEARING: Swarm of 200 + 1d100
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: FI 6 (A)
HIT DICE: 50 hp
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Light beams
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1' diameter)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE: 2, 000  

Crystalmists are interesting and unusual hive entities. Individual crystalmists look much like snowflakes, drifting about in the air and absorbing sunlight to power their crystalline structures. At the heart of each crystalmist is a pulsating pinpoint of light that gradually changes colors throughout the day.

When most people speak of a crystalmist, however, they are referring to the shape the swarm takes on when it is threatened. At such times, the various individuals drift together to form a sphere roughly one foot in diameter. The sphere throbs with a deep, ominous sound and radiates a shimmering white light. The statistics provided above are for this configuration; individuals are non-intelligent, AC 10, have 1 hit point (thus there are 50 individuals in a crystalmist community), no effective attack, and a movement rate of 18.

Individual crystalmists are not intelligent enough to have any language per se, but they are believed to have a rudimentary form of communication within their species based on color modulation.

Combat: While individual crystalmists have no combat capabilities, they can quickly form into a community being that is very dangerous. Coalescing into the larger form requires only one round, during which time the crystalmist can be attacked with impunity.

The globular crystalmist community can unleash a powerful beam of light each round, using the energy stored in the bodies of its component creatures. The beam has a range of 20 feet, beyond which limit it is too diffuse to cause injury. A normal attack roll is required for the crystalmist to hit a target with its beams. Each successful strike inflicts 1d6 points of damage.

If the crystalmist fails to hit its target, but still rolls above a 3 on its attack die, then the beam of light is assumed to have struck the target, but been deflected by armor, a shield, or some other object on the target’s person (if possible). DMs should determine at random what has been hit, taking into account relative sizes and positions of objects.

Any flammable object (such as a wooden shield or padded armor) hit by the light ray must roll a successful saving throw vs. magical fire (see DMG page 39) or instantly ignite. Persons wearing clothing that bursts into flames suffer 1d4 points of damage each round until they can extinguish the fire or remove the burning garb. Objects (such as lanterns) that contain very flammable materials may actually explode (10% chance), doing damage as the DM sees fit.

In addition to its light powers, the crystalmist is immune to a number of spells. It cannot be affected by sleep, charm, illusion, or other mind-altering spells. If the crystalmist is fighting in the presence of a bright light source (such as a continual light spell), the damage done by its beam is doubled to 2d6 points.

When a crystalmist suffers 10 points of damage, it fragments into its individual components. Each point of damage inflicted upon the community destroys one individual (thus 12 points of damage means the community fragments into its 38 remaining individuals). The remaining individuals cannot form another community for five rounds.

Habitat/Society: As the individual crystalmists that make up a crystalmist community have less intelligence than the average grasshopper, they have no recognizable society. Still, they do hive a basic natural drive to remain with others of their kind and form of several hundred individual crystalmists.

Crystalmist individuals reproduce rarely, by binary fission like unicellular creatures.

Ecology: Crystalmists do not hunt, nor are they hunted. From time to time they may be scooped out of the air by a passing bat or avian in search of a few minerals to balance its diet, but as a rule they are ignored by the animals around them.

It is believed that the mysterious timeglass of the mage was crafted with ground crystalmists. While this has never been confirmed, it may indeed be true as the unique physiology of the crystalmist makes it very valuable to those who have in interest in arcane devices.

Other uses for the crystalmist include the creation of high quality smoke powder and dust of illusion. It is also rumored that the priceless oracles of Greyhawk are fashioned from crystalmist colonies captured and trapped forever by powerful magic.



some preliminary stats for the crystalmist:

*Crystalmist*
Tiny Aberration (Swarm)
Hit Dice: Xd8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: Fly 20 ft (perfect) (4 squares)
Armor Class: X (+2 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: 
Full Attack: 
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Light ray/beam (1-6), combustion
Special Qualities: immune to mind-affecting
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X 
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 1, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: Temperate and warm mountains
Organization: X
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: ---



COMBAT


Originally found in Greyhawk Adventures (1988, James M. Ward), and Monstrous Compendium MC5 - Greyhawk Appendix (1990).


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## Krishnath (Jan 3, 2004)

Wouldn't that be a diminuative aberration (swarm)?


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## BOZ (Jan 4, 2004)

diminutive, tiny... could go either way.  1-foot diameter is right on the border is it not?  which sounds better?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 4, 2004)

I'd say Diminutive. Swarm usually have no advancement, so that gets that out of the way. I'd give them a pathetically low Str (like 1), decent Dex (15-19), and decent Wis and Cha for something of animal intelligence. 
Personally, I'd give it 6 HD (6 x 4.5 = 27) and a Con of 18-19 (4 x 6 = 24), for a total of 51 HP, almost identical to the 2e original. This would put the save DC of the light rays at 17, assuming the rays are Con based.

Demiurge out.


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## Krishnath (Jan 4, 2004)

The swarms face/reach should be 10'/- to keep it consistant with the swarm subtype. Also, I think the light ray's DC should be cha based.

Fixed a typo regarding the face/reach...


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2004)

Check out the shimmer swarm at the end of this article for a comparable swarm:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20031010a


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## BOZ (Jan 11, 2004)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I'd say Diminutive. Swarm usually have no advancement, so that gets that out of the way. I'd give them a pathetically low Str (like 1), decent Dex (15-19), and decent Wis and Cha for something of animal intelligence.
> Personally, I'd give it 6 HD (6 x 4.5 = 27) and a Con of 18-19 (4 x 6 = 24), for a total of 51 HP, almost identical to the 2e original. This would put the save DC of the light rays at 17, assuming the rays are Con based.




i think i'll raise that to 8 HD with Con 15.  also, i'll make the Dex just a bit higher.

i'm also thinking that the hellwasp swarm's hive mind ability is very similar to information in the original crystalmist text.

here are some updated stats:

*Crystalmist*
Diminutive Aberration (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 8d8+16 (52 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: Fly 20 ft (perfect) (4 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (+4 size, +6 Dex, +3 natural), touch 20, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/---
Attack: 
Full Attack: 
Space/Reach: 10 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Light ray/beam (1-6), combustion, distraction
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft, hive mind, immune to mind-affecting, immune to weapon damage, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +4 Ref +8 Will +7
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 22, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skills: 11
Feats: 3

Environment: Temperate and warm mountains
Organization: X
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: ---


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2004)

The base damage for an 8 HD swarm should be 2d6.  If you stick with this, you'll have:

Attack: Swarm (2d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (2d6)

Suggested Feats (3 of the following):  Ability Focus (light beam--if save is allowed), Alertness, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot
Suggested Skill Ranks:  Listen 5, Spot 6 

I'd roll the combust SQ into the light beam SQ.

Organization:  Solitary or cloud (2-8 swarms)


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## BOZ (Jan 12, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> The base damage for an 8 HD swarm should be 2d6.  If you stick with this, you'll have:
> 
> Attack: Swarm (2d6)
> Full Attack: Swarm (2d6)




ooh, that might be a bit high...



> Suggested Feats (3 of the following):  Ability Focus (light beam--if save is allowed), Alertness, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot
> Suggested Skill Ranks:  Listen 5, Spot 6




cool - i'll figure those out soon enough.  



> I'd roll the combust SQ into the light beam SQ.




right, i was thinking of doing that anyway.  one question - should the light beam be a ranged touch attack, or should it be a power with a reflex save instead?



> Organization:  Solitary or cloud (2-8 swarms)




that works, but i think i'll lower that to maybe 2-5.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ooh, that might be a bit high...




That was just the suggested damage for its HD from the swarm entry.  Go with whatever you'd like.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> right, i was thinking of doing that anyway.  one question - should the light beam be a ranged touch attack, or should it be a power with a reflex save instead?




It sounds like a ranged touch attack to me.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that works, but i think i'll lower that to maybe 2-5.


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## Krishnath (Jan 12, 2004)

Definetly a ranged touch attack.


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## BOZ (Jan 12, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> It sounds like a ranged touch attack to me.




me too, but i have one question... can swarms use a ranged touch attack?


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## Krishnath (Jan 12, 2004)

The rules doesn't specifically say that they can't.


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## BOZ (Jan 12, 2004)

that's why i was asking.    well, if they groupmind says "yes", then that's what we go with...


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## BOZ (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok, time to break it down!  



> Combat: While individual crystalmists have no combat capabilities, they can quickly form into a community being that is very dangerous. Coalescing into the larger form requires only one round, during which time the crystalmist can be attacked with impunity.




full round action?  see below!  



> The globular crystalmist community can unleash a powerful beam of light each round, using the energy stored in the bodies of its component creatures. The beam has a range of 20 feet, beyond which limit it is too diffuse to cause injury. A normal attack roll is required for the crystalmist to hit a target with its beams. Each successful strike inflicts 1d6 points of damage.




copied from lantern archon:

Light Ray (Ex): A crystalmist swarm’s light rays have a range of 20 feet.



> If the crystalmist fails to hit its target, but still rolls above a 3 on its attack die, then the beam of light is assumed to have struck the target, but been deflected by armor, a shield, or some other object on the target’s person (if possible). DMs should determine at random what has been hit, taking into account relative sizes and positions of objects.




should we keep this at all?  Would it work something like the “grenade-like missile” chart in the DMG?



> Any flammable object (such as a wooden shield or padded armor) hit by the light ray must roll a successful saving throw vs. magical fire (see DMG page 39) or instantly ignite. Persons wearing clothing that bursts into flames suffer 1d4 points of damage each round until they can extinguish the fire or remove the burning garb. Objects (such as lanterns) that contain very flammable materials may actually explode (10% chance), doing damage as the DM sees fit.




add this to the light ray, of course:

The light ray sets fire to combustibles and damages objects struck.  It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.  (do we need any more info here?) 



> In addition to its light powers, the crystalmist is immune to a number of spells. It cannot be affected by sleep, charm, illusion, or other mind-altering spells.




immune to mind-affecting good enough eh?



> If the crystalmist is fighting in the presence of a bright light source (such as a continual light spell), the damage done by its beam is doubled to 2d6 points.




add a line about double damage?



> When a crystalmist suffers 10 points of damage, it fragments into its individual components. Each point of damage inflicted upon the community destroys one individual (thus 12 points of damage means the community fragments into its 38 remaining individuals). The remaining individuals cannot form another community for five rounds.




how about:

Hive Mind (Ex): Any crystalmist swarm with at least 1 hit point per Hit Dice (or 8 hit points, for a standard crystalmist swarm) forms a hive mind, giving it an Intelligence of 1.  When a crystalmist swarm is reduced below this hit point threshold, it becomes mindless.

When a crystalmist swarm suffers 10 points of damage, it fragments into its individual components.  The remaining individuals cannot form another swarm for five rounds while they regroup. Forming into a new swarm is a full-round action, and the swarm loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class in that round.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> me too, but i have one question... can swarms use a ranged touch attack?




Currently, there does not appear to be a precedent for a swarm making any type of attack other than a swarm attack, which doesn't require an attack roll.  However, some do have ranged spells or spell-like abilities, so I don't see why a ray attack would be an exception.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> full round action?  see below!




Looking below.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> copied from lantern archon:
> 
> Light Ray (Ex): A crystalmist swarm’s light rays have a range of 20 feet.




Cool.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> should we keep this at all?  Would it work something like the “grenade-like missile” chart in the DMG?




My instincts say to get rid of it, put it would be challenging to write this effectively, so I'm up for either.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> add this to the light ray, of course:
> 
> The light ray sets fire to combustibles and damages objects struck.  It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.  (do we need any more info here?)




I'd vote for less info (lose the melting point business; fireball used to have it and no longer does).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> immune to mind-affecting good enough eh?




Good enough for me.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> add a line about double damage?




Sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how about:
> 
> Hive Mind (Ex): Any crystalmist swarm with at least 1 hit point per Hit Dice (or 8 hit points, for a standard crystalmist swarm) forms a hive mind, giving it an Intelligence of 1.  When a crystalmist swarm is reduced below this hit point threshold, it becomes mindless.
> 
> When a crystalmist swarm suffers 10 points of damage, it fragments into its individual components.  The remaining individuals cannot form another swarm for five rounds while they regroup. Forming into a new swarm is a full-round action, and the swarm loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class in that round.




Nice!


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd vote for less info (lose the melting point business; fireball used to have it and no longer does).




look again.


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

and, now, posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> look again.




Well I'll be...    

Suggested Skill Ranks:  Listen 5, Spot 6 
Suggested Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot (or Great Fortitude as an alternate to any of these)

How about CR 5?  It seems no more deadly than a plague ant swarm (also CR 5), but is slightly better than a centipede swarm (CR 4).

Distraction DC is 16.


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

While researching the rilmani, I noticed that the quth-maren (on the facing page) have an attack that works like a grenade-like missile.


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## Krishnath (Jan 13, 2004)

Looks good, but you better add immunity to illusions. Not all illusion spells are mind-affecting.


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

are mindless creatures immune to all illusions?


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## Krishnath (Jan 13, 2004)

No, but it doesn't matter, their original description said they where immune to illusions, so keep illusion immunity. (Makes them immune to most shadow spells)


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2004)

Good catch!


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## Krishnath (Jan 13, 2004)

Thank you. :bows:


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> While researching the rilmani, I noticed that the quth-maren (on the facing page) have an attack that works like a grenade-like missile.




thoughts?


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2004)

Alright, lets give it a try.

"The light ray deals 2d6 points of fire damage on a direct hit, and 2 points of fire damage to all creatures within 5 feet of where it hits."


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

updating.


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## BOZ (Jan 14, 2004)

so, assuming those last three are finished... anyone else notice how many we have done since the last batch?  oh, 10?  does that mean i'm adding more conversions to the CC this week?  hmm, could be.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2004)

Sweet!


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## Krishnath (Jan 14, 2004)

ROCK!


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## BOZ (Jan 14, 2004)

sweetrock?


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## Krishnath (Jan 14, 2004)

Yes, Sweet rocked, well Ballroom Blitz rocked, but nowadays I prefer Korn.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2004)

Sweetrock sounds like a special material.

"Weapons forged from sweetrock are particularly tempting to monsters that like to sunder, due to their chewy centers and flavor crystals."


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## Krishnath (Jan 14, 2004)

ROFLMAO!


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## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

It’s a very finite list, so might as well go straight down the line, one at a time…


Ingundi
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate/Forests
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 3+2
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws, 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/1-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTACE: Nil
SIZE: M (5'-6' tall)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 420

The ingundi is an intelligent humanoid reptile that can cloak itself in illusion to fool its prey.
In its true form, the ingundi is similar in appearance to a small lizard man-a lightly built, bipedal reptile standing  five to six feet tall, with a tail that balances its upper body. Its mouth is wider than a lizard man's, however, and is filled with sharp, rending teeth. Its forelimbs, though slimmer and weaker, bear long and hideously sharp claws. Ingundi skin color ranges from a light green on the back to a pale yellow on the creature's belly. Its small eyes are yellow with large black pupils. The ingundi wears no clothes or ornaments of any kind.
Ingundi have no language, but they communicate telepathically.

Combat: The ingundi rarely appears in its true form. It has a powerful form of ESP, a well-developed change self power, and typically appears as some other, more innocuous, creature. It can be any creature from the size of a large dog to that of a bear. It can disguise itself this way twice a day; the disguise lasts for 1d10 + 10 rounds.
When hunting humans or demihumans, it takes on the appearance of an attractive individual of the same race as its victim but of the opposite sex. The physical details of the illusion are picked right out of the mind of its prey. It always picks out a figure greatly desired, but frequently unattainable, by the victim. The ESP power can be blocked by magical spells, such as mind blank. With intelligent creatures there is always the danger of appearing as somebody who would not reasonably be there.
In this form, the ingundi approaches its victim and tries to engage him or her in flirtatious conversation. In the case of animal prey it uses courtship rituals. Unknown to the victim, the ingundi's side of the conversation is al1 telepathic. Anybody else witnessing the two hears only a one-sided conversation.
During the talk the ingundi casts a powerful, telepathic charm person or monster (as the case may be) spell. The victim gets a saving throw vs. spell with a - 2 penalty. If the ESP ability cannot read the victim's mind, the ingundi cannot charm him. If it is successful, the ingundi leads the victim away from prying eyes, where it convinces its victim to remove all armor. During the first round, it attacks with a +4 bonus to its attack roll and automatic surprise. After this initial round, the charm is dispelled, the bonus is lost, and its victim can strike back. If anything goes wrong, such as a failed charm or somebody intervening, it flees. It fights only if cornered.

Habitat/Society: An ingundi typically makes a small lair inside a dead tree or among exposed tree roots. Individuals approach each other only to mate, once a year during the depths of winter. The single egg the female lays is hidden and forgotten. Twelve weeks later it hatches. The newly hatched ingundi has full powers, but it hunts only small animals until it is full grown six months later.
The normal prey for ingundi are forest animals of a size that it can imitate through illusion, such as deer. It is not afraid of humans and hunts them if they are the nearest prey. It usually hunts only once every few days, a single kill being enough to feed it for that long.
Ingundi have no known culture or civilization.

Ecology: The ingundi is a highly efficient predator. It has no natural enemies. Its magical abilities are used defensively, the ESP warning it of stalkers. When one is detected, it merely changes into a creature that the hunter would not hunt, or even into a similar creature of the opposite sex. In this case the hunted becomes the hunter.
The ingundi produces nothing of value for humans or animals. Some ingundi take giant iguanas, charm them, and use them as mounts. They are controlled telepathically and obey their rider completely. Ingundi are believed to be responsible for many myths and legends about evil creatures that hunt wicked people. This is a common rationale when folk disappear without a trace and no natural cause can be found.


some preliminary stats for the ingundi:

*Ingundi*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 3d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares) 
Armor Class: 14 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: (claw?)
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (1d6+X) and bite +X melee (1d12+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: charm
Special Qualities: change self (illusion), detect thoughts
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X 
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 6, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 2

Environment: Temperate forest
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class?
Level Adjustment: +X

Ingundi are 5-6 feet tall

COMBAT

Originally found in Greyhawk Adventures (1988, James M. Ward), and Monstrous Compendium MC5 - Greyhawk Appendix (1990).


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2004)

_The creature appears to be a lightly built, bipedal reptile standing nearly six feet tall.  A thick tail balances its upper body. Its mouth is wide, filled with sharp, rending teeth, and its slight forelimbs bear long, hideously sharp claws. Its skin color ranges from  light green on the back to a pale yellow on its belly. Large black pupils dot its small yellow eyes. It wears no clothes or ornaments of any kind._

An ingundi is usually 5 to 6 feet tall with light green scales. Its tail is used for 
balance and is 3 to 4 feet long. An ingundi can weigh from 150 to 200 pounds.

Ingundi do not speak, but communicate telepathically.

Lizardfolk Stats:  Str 13, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 10

Since the Ingundi is slighter and weaker, I'd recommend the following stats:

Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 10

If its powers are Charisma-based, we might want to bump Cha up to 12.


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## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

weaker, but they have more HD.    maybe one of its feats could be ability focus for the charm power.  and i would say it is Cha-based (enchantment powers usually are right?) so 12 (or more) it is.


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## Krishnath (Jan 15, 2004)

I suggest actually upping the Ingundi's cha to 16.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2004)

That works for me.  There is nothing worse than having a creature's one cool ability have a low DC and rarely succeed (*cough* krenshar *cough*).


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2004)

Also, add the Reptilian subtype.


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## BOZ (Jan 16, 2004)

do we do that for monstrous humanoids?


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2004)

Good question.  Savage Species has the reptilian creature template, which may be applied to humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and giants.  It says to add the Reptilian subtype to the creature.  Of course, SS isn't 3.5.


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## Krishnath (Jan 17, 2004)

I would say yes, as the differences between Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, and Giants mechanically aren't that great, sure Giants are generally  bigger than the two others and monstrous humanoids tend to have more special abilities, but still the differences aren't that great. I say, go with the reptilian subtype.
Also, the Dragon-Kin (whom are in the Draconomicon) are monstrous humanoids with the reptilian subtype.


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## BOZ (Jan 18, 2004)

i guess i can do that, then.


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## Krishnath (Jan 18, 2004)

Ayup


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

Updating to see where we're at...

*Ingundi*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Reptilian)
Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares) 
Armor Class: 14 (+4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3
Attack: Claw +3 melee (1d6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +3 melee (1d6) and bite -2 melee (1d12)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Charm
Special Qualities: Change self (illusion), darkvision 60 ft, detect thoughts
Saves: Fort +1 Ref +3 Will +3
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 16
Skills: 6
Feats: Ability Focus (charm), 1 more (Multiattack?)

Environment: Temperate forest
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class?
Level Adjustment: +X

_The creature appears to be a lightly built, bipedal reptile standing nearly six feet tall. A thick tail balances its upper body. Its mouth is wide, filled with sharp, rending teeth, and its slight forelimbs bear long, hideously sharp claws. Its skin color ranges from light green on the back to a pale yellow on its belly. Large black pupils dot its small yellow eyes. It wears no clothes or ornaments of any kind._

An ingundi is usually 5 to 6 feet tall with light green scales. Its tail is used for 
balance and is 3 to 4 feet long. An ingundi can weigh from 150 to 200 pounds.

Ingundi do not speak, but communicate telepathically.

COMBAT

Originally found in Greyhawk Adventures (1988, James M. Ward), and Monstrous Compendium MC5 - Greyhawk Appendix (1990).


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

i don't want to say that they don't speak (i'm sure they can), but they usually don't speak because they don't need to.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

No problem.   How about...

Ingundi speak Common, but usually prefer to communicate telepathically.


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

Draconic might be better.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

That works for me.


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## Krishnath (Jan 23, 2004)

Ditto.


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## Knightfall (Jan 24, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Good question.  Savage Species has the reptilian creature template, which may be applied to humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and giants.  It says to add the Reptilian subtype to the creature.  Of course, SS isn't 3.5.




While books like Savage Species and Feind Folio aren't "officially" v.3.5 products they are hybrid products. After all, SS talked about the changes for v.3.5 right in the book, pg. 4. That's close enough for me to consider them v.3.5 compatible.


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## Krishnath (Jan 24, 2004)

I agree.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2004)

Many of its powers mirror that of the doppelganger nicely, so we can extrapolate them for the ingundi.

Detect Thoughts (Su): An ingundi can continuously use detect thoughts as the spell (caster level Xth; Will DC X negates). It can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Change Shape (Su): Twice per day, an ingundi can assume the shape of any Small, Medium, or Large creature. In humanoid form, the ingundi loses its natural attacks. An ingundi can remain in its assumed form for 1d10 + 10 rounds or until it chooses to end this ability. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but an ingundi reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.

Skills: An ingundi has a +4 racial bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.

*When using its change shape ability, an ingundi gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. If it can read an opponent’s mind, it gets a further +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.


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## BOZ (Jan 30, 2004)

I’m thinking that the ingundi will need a method of “speaking” telepathically to its victims, extrapolating from this line “Unknown to the victim, the ingundi's side of the conversation is al1 telepathic. Anybody else witnessing the two hears only a one-sided conversation.”


We need something like this:
Charm Monster (Sp): An ingundi can charm monster (at will?  X/day?).  caster level X, Will save DC X.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




> The ESP power can be blocked by magical spells, such as mind blank. With intelligent creatures there is always the danger of appearing as somebody who would not reasonably be there.




and



> If the ESP ability cannot read the victim's mind, the ingundi cannot charm him.


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## Krishnath (Jan 31, 2004)

I suggest using telepathy, with the special note that it can only speak via telepathy to one creature at a time. (or some such).


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

so a sort of "lesser" telepathy?


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## Krishnath (Feb 1, 2004)

Yes.


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

is there anything like that in the books, or shall i invent it?  

posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

I think you'll have to invent it.


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## BOZ (Feb 2, 2004)

Simple enough actually, and the psuedodragon makes a good example.

Telepathy (Su): An ingundi can communicate telepathically with a single creature within a range of 100? feet that has a language.

needs something to say that the creature cannot normally detect that the communication is telepathic - maybe the illusion moves its mouth while the telepathy is going on.


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## diaglo (Feb 4, 2004)

the vapor rat appears in the ToEE CRPG 



Spoiler



inside the first dungeon level of the temple second corridor room 109 iirc


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

thanks diaglo.

how's that telepathy sound?


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## diaglo (Feb 5, 2004)

a lesser telepathy sounds reasonable. that way the non telepath can block thoughts, just like others wanting to not hear a conversation plug their ears.


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

Cool idea.   How about this...

Lesser Telepathy (Su): An ingundi can communicate telepathically with a single creature within a range of 100? feet that has a language.   The creature believes that the ingundi is speaking in a language that it knows, and will reply verbally to the ingundi.   The victim may attempt a DC X Will save to reveal that the communication is telepathic.   Other creatures hear only a one-sided conversation from the ingundi's victim.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

i like...   updating!


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

The Charm Monster power needs to get written.  Should be just a spell-like ability description with a few alterations as listed.  Would be DC 16 I think.

CR: 1 or 2?

LA (if any)?

Skills (ranks): Bluff +1, Disguise +1, Listen +2, Spot +2 ?

Feats: still need one more

Detect Thoughts caster level?

Saving throw for Lesser Telepathy: DC 14?


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> The Charm Monster power needs to get written.  Should be just a spell-like ability description with a few alterations as listed.  Would be DC 16 I think.




DC 16 sounds right.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> CR: 1 or 2?




I'd say 2.  It's comparable to a bugbear in power.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> LA (if any)?




I'd say +3.  A doppelganger is +4, and the ingundi has the same abilities but lacks unbalanced ability scores.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills (ranks): Bluff +1, Disguise +1, Listen +2, Spot +2 ?




Sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Feats: still need one more




I like Multiattack, so that its claws aren't at a negative attack modifier.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Detect Thoughts caster level?




3rd?  It doesn't matter much, since it has it continuous.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Saving throw for Lesser Telepathy: DC 14?




Yep.


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

Something like:
Charm Monster (Sp): An ingundi can charm monster (at will? X/day?). caster level X, Will save DC 16. The ingundi cannot charm any creature on which it has not used detect thoughts.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

CR 2 then and LA +3?

OK, got Ability Focus (charm) and Multiattack – need one more feat.


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Charm Monster (Sp): An ingundi can charm monster (at will? X/day?). caster level X, Will save DC 16. The ingundi cannot charm any creature on which it has not used detect thoughts.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




I like the writeup.  At will?  Do we want to account for this...

"During the first round, it attacks with a +4 bonus to its attack roll and automatic surprise."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> CR 2 then and LA +3?




That's what I'm recommending.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, got Ability Focus (charm) and Multiattack – need one more feat.




Why?  Is one of those a bonus feat?   (It gets one feat at 1 HD and another at 3 HD, for a total of 2, right?)


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like the writeup.  At will?  Do we want to account for this...
> 
> "During the first round, it attacks with a +4 bonus to its attack roll and automatic surprise."




that is a sort of surprise bonus due to the opponent being charmed and totally unsuspecting an attack from its new "friend".  if we did use that, how could we put it?



> Why?  Is one of those a bonus feat?   (It gets one feat at 1 HD and another at 3 HD, for a total of 2, right?)




d'oh!  i confused myself with my own notes.    guess we only need those two after all.


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that is a sort of surprise bonus due to the opponent being charmed and totally unsuspecting an attack from its new "friend".  if we did use that, how could we put it?




Perhaps add to the charm ability...

A charmed opponent is considered flat-footed against the ingundi's first attack upon him.

Whaddya think?


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

sounds good - i put it in the flavor text instead.    how about 6th-level caster for charm monster?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

6th-level sounds fine.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

Should we have an “Ingundi as characters” section?  Medusas, hags, and harpies do not have one at all, and sahuagin, derro, and kuo-toa only have a paragraph or two instead.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

I don't think they need the full writeup.   Probably just the "most ingundi are <class>" and "Ingudi clerics have access to the following domains" part, like the sahuagin.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

along the lines of...

INGUNDI CHARACTERS
An ingundi’s favored class is (rogue?  Barbarian?.  An ingundi cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Evil, Trickery.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

Exactly.    

I'd go with rogue, as it relies on deception.  Plus, it could really make good use of sneak attack when combined with its charm ability.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

ok, updating this one again.  

are we done here as well?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

I think it's done.

I'd like to take a moment to request that scale back on converting reptilian humanoids/monstrous humanoids for awhile.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

LOL!  ok, ok... coincidence, i assure you.


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## Shade (Feb 8, 2004)

Seeing that the mist wolf is up next, I believe you.


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## BOZ (Feb 14, 2004)

right you are!

Wolf, Mist

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subarctic and temperate/Non-desert
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8- 10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Lawful good

NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 3+3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Breath weapon
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
SIZE: M (4’ at the shoulder)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 175

Mist wolves are cousins of normal wolves, but they are larger and have some magical abilities. Although they're lawful good in alignment, mankind's innate fear and hatred of wolves ensure that these creatures are treated with distrust.

Mist wolves are almost identical to their nonmagical cousins, except that they're taller at the shoulder and their fur is gray with white tips on the hackles. They're slim and muscular, with fearsome-looking teeth. Their eyes are black, without the red tinge often seen in wild wolves.

Combat: Mist wolves attack in packs like common wolves, often using the sheer weight of numbers to drag down opponents. They're more intelligent than their cousins, so they are less likely to continue an obviously losing battle.

Mist wolves have a magical ability that makes it easier for them to disengage from stronger opponents.  Each Mist wolf can exhale clouds of thick mist (similar to a wall of fog spell) blocking all vision, filling a volume ten feet on a side (1,000 cubic feet) and lasting five rounds unless blown away. The mist is purely defensive, since it's as opaque to the wolves as it is to their opponents. This can be used twice per day.

Mist wolves have an innate ability to detect evil. This power operates continuously, without conscious volition. They're implacable enemies of evil and defenders of goodness and law, They'll often go to great lengths - even giving up their lives - to protect humans and demihumans.

Habitat/Society: Because of their alignment, mist wolves attack only humans or demihumans who have been acting in a flagrantly evil manner. Normally, mist wolves protect travelers from evil creatures that may wish them harm. Unfortunately, fear and hatred of wolves are taught from the cradle and are embodied in everything from children's tales to common expressions ("a wolf in the fold," "the wolf at the door," etc.). The fact that mist wolves are frequently seen where evil is abroad doesn't help; people never realize - or refuse to believe - that the wolves only appear when evil is near in order to fight it.  Therefore, mist wolves are often slain by the very people they're trying to protect.

Mist wolf society is based around the pack. Packs consist of up to 20 adult wolves, with an equal numbers of males and females. The leader of the pack is the strongest individual (usually male, but not necessarily so), who gains and defends the position by challenge and non-lethal combat.

Mist wolves have their own rich language consisting of yips, barks, and growls. They understand the common tongue, but they art unable to speak it for anatomical reasons.

These creatures are most common in forests with evil reputations, because that's where they can do the most good. (Of course, this doesn't help the wolves reputation at all…) There are large populations of mist wolves in Dreadwood and in the Burneal Forest, although they aren't limited to these areas.

Ecology: If a pack of mist wolves is encountered in its own territory (usually wilderness forests), there are half as many cubs present as there are females in the pack. Mist wolves are monogamous and mate for life, and both parents share the responsibility of caring for cubs. Cubs grow rapidly, reaching full maturity at the age of 12 months. They gain their breath weapon ability at half that age.

Mist wolves are highly efficient predators with few natural enemies. They're intelligent enough to select their victims and control hunting with care, making sure never to over-hunt an area.


Conversions of the mist wolf can be found here:
http://members.tripod.com/~theguild/DandD3emonsters.html
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Tower/8841/3rdedition/mist_wolf.html



some preliminary stats for the mist wolf:

*Wolf, Mist*
Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 3d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (2d6+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (2d6+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: trip?
Special Qualities: breath “weapon”, darkvision 60 ft, detect evil (continuous), low-light vision, scent, spell resistance 13
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 10 (Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival)
Feats: 2

Environment: Any cold and temperate land (except desert)
Organization: Solitary or pack (2-20)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful good
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium), 7-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +X


A mist wolf is 4 feet tall at the shoulder, and weighs X pounds.

Mist wolves have their own language consisting of yips, barks, and growls.  A mist wolf can understand Common and other languages, but is unable to speak.

COMBAT


Originally found in Greyhawk Adventures (1988, James M. Ward), and Monstrous Compendium MC5 - Greyhawk Appendix (1990).


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2004)

There is also a mist wolf in Dragon #293.  It is slightly similar, yet is incorporeal and evil.

Here's a stab at the special abilities:

Detect Evil (Su): Mist wolves continuously detect evil as the spell (caster level Xth).

Mist Cloud (Su):  Twice per day, a mist wolf can exhale clouds of thick mist in a 20-foot-radius spread, 20 ft. high. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target).

The mist cloud lasts five rounds.  A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round.


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## BOZ (Feb 16, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> There is also a mist wolf in Dragon #293.  It is slightly similar, yet is incorporeal and evil.




i'm aware of that one.  it's rather significantly different, therefore i'm not too concerned about it.  

nice call on the abilities!


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

Mist wolf thoughts:

Should we give them a trip attack?  Most canine monsters have one nowadays after all.  

CR 2?

Ability scores:
Abilities: Str 13-16, Dex 15, Con 15/16, Int 10, Wis 12/13, Cha 10/11

Skills:  at least the wolf standards – Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival (Sense Motive maybe?)

Feats: again, wolf standards minimum – Track, Weapon Focus (bite)  (optional – Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Run)

(looked to winter wolf, worg, and blink dog as examples)


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Yes to trip attack.

Ability scores:  Str 14, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11

I agree with all of your choices, including Sense Motive.  Perhaps Diplomacy as well?

Feats: I'd stick with Track and Weapon Focus (bite), or possibly replace the latter with Blind-Fight.

It seems like a high CR 2 or low CR 3 to me so far.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

they only have 10 skill ranks.  i'd say either Sense Motive or Diplomacy.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Then I'd stick with Sense Motive.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Feats: I'd stick with Track and Weapon Focus (bite), or possibly replace the latter with Blind-Fight.




i could give it Weapon Focus and Blind-Fight, and add Track as a bonus.  

Skills... how about:
Skills: Hide +3, Listen +3, Move Silently +4, Sense Motive +4, Spot +3, Survival +1

* Mist wolves have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

That all sounds great!


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

ok, posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

LA:  +4 (cohort)?

Weight:  120 lbs.?  (closest comparble I could find was hell hound)

Detect evil:  Caster level 4th?  (It doesn't really matter, since it is continuous and the only variable factor is duration normally).


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

i definitely support the cohort idea.  i can't see one joining a group full time, but it makes sense that one might join a group for awhile for a specific cause.  they fit the whole "total goodness" type of creature such as lamassu, couatl, and unicorns.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

Yep.  It would definitely make a nice pal for a good ranger, or as a special mount for a small paladin.


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

i'm going with CR 3.  i think we're basically done - do you see anything left to work on with this fella?

the trip attack has a +5 right?  or would it be +6 because of the weapon focus to bite?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

I believe it would get its Weapon Focus (bite) bonus.

Otherwise, I believe it is finished.


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

woot!  

i have other plans for the horgar and vampiric mist - were the vapor rat and sea snail still up for grabs?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

As far as I know.  As someone pointed out earlier, the vapor rats are in the Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG, but I have that game and it doesn't list out any statistics for them in the manual, so I'd say that they are fair game.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i have other plans for the horgar and vampiric mist - were the vapor rat and sea snail still up for grabs?



Are we limited to these two, or can we vote on the additional critters Filby and I posted?


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## BOZ (Mar 3, 2004)

No, we’re not limited to those two.  I just wanted to get them out of the way since we’re down to two.  

If you really have a preference for something else though, let me know and I’ll have a look.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2004)

The remaining two are fine.  I have no immediate need for the other stuff.   The sea snail sounds like a simple conversion for a change.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

hmm, just realized that i had forgotten to post these guys.  


MM2:

Vapor Rat

FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 2-16
ARMOR CLASS: 6 (or special)
MOVE: 12"/ /6" (1")
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 30%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACK: 1
DAMAGE /A ATTACK: 1 -2 hp
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Stinking cloud
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Gaseous form
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic (neutral)
SIZE: S
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil/nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: II/52 + 2/hp

Vapor rats appear to be nothing more than large, gray giant rats. Their habitat, however, includes areas not common to giant rats, for the-is creatures also dwell in and on the substantial cloud islands which frequently serve as the abode of cloud giants.

It is possible for vapor rats to alter the substance of their bodies and assume a gaseous form, In this condition they appear to be wisps of cloud or similar vapors, In normal solid state, vapor rats move very quickly and rapidly, are able to swim well, and are capable of burrowing rapidly through loose soil or the material of cloud islands, In their vaporous condition, they are able to direct their movement much as a ship would steer before the wind, and they are thus able to move from cloud to cloud around the sky,

Vapor rats are omnivorous, loving garbage and carrion, which is typical of a I I rats is, Wit Is They do not seek treasure, there is a possibility that the remains of t he it meals will contain some items of value. It discovered in their lair r, the re is a 25% chance for each of the following treasure types to be there: J (1 - 4), K (1 -4), L (1 -4), M (1 -4), N (1-2), C-type for gems, jewelry, and magic. If angry, hungry, or cornered, vapor rats will attack by scurrying in and delivering sharp bites. Whenever one is killed or seriously wounded, it gives off a small puff of noxious fumes This gaseous release is the equivalent of a stinking cloud spell (q.v.), but it will affect only 1 individual if within 5-8 feet of the vapor rat. The rat always directs its release at its opponent, and the gas dissipates beyond the maximum distance shown above. Thus, while it is safe to slay these monsters from a distance, they are particularly dangerous in close proximity.

Wounded or seriously threatened vapor rats will always assume gaseous form. In such state, they can only be harmed by attack forms which cause their vapors to be destroyed. Such attack forms include very hot or magical fire, lightning, and exceptionally strong winds.


MC5:

Vapor Rat
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any/Cloud islands
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral

NO. APPEARING: 2-16
ARMOR CLASS: 6 (or special)
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 6 (Gaseous 1)
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Stinking cloud
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1' long)
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7)
XP VALUE: 35

Vapor Rats

Vapor rats appear to be nothing more than large, gray, giant rats. Their habitat, however, includes areas not common to giant rats, for these creatures also dwell in and on the substantial cloud islands that frequently serve as the abode of cloud giants and cloud dragons.

If angry, hungry, or cornered, vapor rats attack by scurrying in and delivering a sharp bite. Whenever one is killed, it gives off a small puff of noxious fumes. This gaseous release is the equivalent of the stinking cloud spell, but it affects only one individual within eight feet of the vapor rat. The rat always directs its release toward its opponent, and the gas dissipates to harmlessness beyond eight feet. Thus, while it is safe to slay these creatures at a distance, they are particularly dangerous in close proximity.

It is possible for vapor rats to alter the substance of their bodies and assume a gaseous form. In this condition they appear to be wisps of cloud or similar vapors. In their vaporous condition they are able to direct their movements much as a ship would steer before the wind, and they are thus able to move from cloud to cloud around the sky.

Wounded or seriously threatened vapor rats always assume gaseous form. In such a state, they can be harmed only by attack forms that cause their vapors to be destroyed. These include very hot or magical fire, lightning, and exceptionally strong winds (see the potion of gaseous form for more details).


some preliminary stats for the vapor rat:

*Rat, Vapor*
Tiny Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 2d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares), fly 20 ft or 5 ft? (clumsy?)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch 11, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+X
Attack: Bite (1d2)
Full Attack: Bite (1d2)
Space/Reach: 2 ½ ft/2 ½ ft
Special Attacks: stinking cloud (death throes)
Special Qualities: gaseous form
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 6, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X (swim)
Feats: 1

Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or pack (2-16)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: (incidental)
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X


A vapor rat is about a foot long and weighs

COMBAT

Originally found in the first edition Monster Manual II (1983, Gary Gygax) and Monstrous Compendium MC5 - Greyhawk Appendix (1990).

Found one conversion here:  http://66.34.111.89/Eric/conversions/vaporrat.rtf


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

Go BOZ, you posting fiend!   

Here are some similar creatures for comparison for stats:
Rat (Tiny):  Str 2, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
Dire Rat (Small):  Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Ash Rat (Small):  Str 6, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 3
Moonrat (Tiny):  Str 2, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2

Based on that, I'd recommend Str 2, Dex 15, and Con 10-11 for the physical stats.   As for mental stats, its smarter than all of the above, so I'd look at the lesser cranium rat pack:  Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 13.   So maybe Wis 13, Cha 13 to go along with its 6 Int?


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

i'm giving it a slightly higher Dex (17), and that Cha is too high.  maybe no more than 11.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

Cool.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

Back to the vapor rats, add a burrow speed (the description states that they burrow well).

Borrowing from the vampire spawn:

*Gaseous Form (Su):* As a standard action, a vapor rat can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level Xth), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

-or (borrowing from the belker)-

*Vapor Form (Su):* Most of the time a vapor rat is more or less solid, but at will it can assume vapor form. It can switch forms once per round as a free action and can spend up to X rounds per day in vapor form. A vapor rat in vapor form can fly at a speed of 50 feet (perfect). The ability is otherwise similar to a gaseous form spell (caster level Xth).

Whaddya think?


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

i'll give it some thought.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

MM2 said:
			
		

> It is possible for vapor rats to alter the substance of their bodies and assume a gaseous form, In this condition they appear to be wisps of cloud or similar vapors, In normal solid state, vapor rats move very quickly and rapidly, are able to swim well, and are capable of burrowing rapidly through loose soil or the material of cloud islands, In their vaporous condition, they are able to direct their movement much as a ship would steer before the wind, and they are thus able to move from cloud to cloud around the sky.
> 
> Wounded or seriously threatened vapor rats will always assume gaseous form. In such state, they can only be harmed by attack forms which cause their vapors to be destroyed. Such attack forms include very hot or magical fire, lightning, and exceptionally strong winds.






			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> It is possible for vapor rats to alter the substance of their bodies and assume a gaseous form. In this condition they appear to be wisps of cloud or similar vapors. In their vaporous condition they are able to direct their movements much as a ship would steer before the wind, and they are thus able to move from cloud to cloud around the sky.
> 
> Wounded or seriously threatened vapor rats always assume gaseous form. In such a state, they can be harmed only by attack forms that cause their vapors to be destroyed. These include very hot or magical fire, lightning, and exceptionally strong winds (see the potion of gaseous form for more details).




I’d say that vapor form is certainly more flavorful!    (wondering… should we add the air subtype?) I’d say their movement rate should be standard for whatever gaseous form provides for.

A weird thing about the movement rate.  The MM2 entry says this:  MOVE: 12"/ /6" (1")

The MC5 entry contradicts it quite a bit: MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 6 (Gaseous 1)

Now, from the front of the MM2, movement entries are explained:
X" = ground speed
/X" = flying speed
/ /X" = swimming speed
(X") = burrowing speed
"X" = climbing in a web
@X" = climbing in trees

That table seems to suggest to me that a vapor rat could move normally at 12, swim at 6, and burrow at 1.  I’m reading that correctly aren’t I?  Seems that the MC5 designers were not.  Notice that the MM2 entry even mentions that they swim and burrow!

So, their real 3.5 speed should be: 30 ft (6 squares), swim 20 ft, burrow 5 ft – correct?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> So, their real 3.5 speed should be: 30 ft (6 squares), swim 20 ft, burrow 5 ft – correct?



Wow, weird.  Yep, I think you're correct.

The standard gaseous form speed is fly 10 ft. (perfect).

Air subtype sounds good to me.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

MM2


> Whenever one is killed or seriously wounded, it gives off a small puff of noxious fumes This gaseous release is the equivalent of a stinking cloud spell (q.v.), but it will affect only 1 individual if within 5-8 feet of the vapor rat. The rat always directs its release at its opponent, and the gas dissipates beyond the maximum distance shown above. Thus, while it is safe to slay these monsters from a distance, they are particularly dangerous in close proximity.




MC5


> Whenever one is killed, it gives off a small puff of noxious fumes. This gaseous release is the equivalent of the stinking cloud spell, but it affects only one individual within eight feet of the vapor rat. The rat always directs its release toward its opponent, and the gas dissipates to harmlessness beyond eight feet. Thus, while it is safe to slay these creatures at a distance, they are particularly dangerous in close proximity.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

i'll take a stab at it - 

<Stinking Cloud>? (Ex): When a vapor rat is killed, its body creates a gaseous release of noxious fumes that affects a single 5-foot cube in any square within 10 feet of the vapor rat for one round.  This affect is always aimed towards the creature that killed the rat.  Any creature in that square or who enters that square while the effect is active is affected in the same way as stinking cloud (Fort DC 11 to negate).  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

Looks good, except you can just say it makes them nauseous for 1d4+1 rounds (since that's all stinking cloud does).   I'd go with Death Throes for the name of the ability for consistency.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

It's shaping up nicely.   Some thoughts...

A dire rat is CR 1/3.  This guy's abilities don't really make it much more deadly, although it does have 1 more HD.   Maybe CR 1/2?   Is there a law against 2 HD creatures having less than one HD?

Should we make Weapon Finesse a bonus feat and give it Alertness?  That's what the dire rat has.

I'd go with Listen 1, Move Silently 3, Spot 1.  It'll get +8 to Swim from having a Swim speed, and a nice size bonus to Hide.  

It probably should only weigh about a pound, since it's dinky and airy.


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## BOZ (Mar 11, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> It probably should only weigh about a pound, since it's dinky and airy.




i disagree.  it should weigh the same as a tiny rat, because it is solid most of the time when not in vapor form.

everything else, i like.  

that would make its skills:
Hide +11, Listen +4, Move Silently +6, Spot +4, Swim +4


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2004)

Oops! I reread the description, and you're right. It should probably weigh the same as a normal rat.

The skills look good. Are you also going to give 'em the normal rats skills bonuses? Here they are for quick reference...

*Skills:* Rats have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, and Swim checks. A rat can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A rat uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its Strength modifier for Climb and Swim checks. A rat has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## BOZ (Mar 11, 2004)

sounds good - updating.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2004)

It's about done.   For the vapor form ability, is there a reason to limit it to a certain number of rounds per day?  I got the impression that it was always an option for them.

Obviously the don't speak, but have a high enough Int score that they could understand a language.  Do we want to say that they understand Giant and/or Draconic, since they sometimes associate with cloud giants and cloud dragons?


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## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

Yeah, I guess they don’t need to have a limited number of rounds, I was just copying from the paragraph you wrote.    do we need a caster level for the vapor form?  

And no, I don’t think they need to speak – but maybe we could put a blurb that if they live among creatures they can understand the language.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2004)

I should have known it would be my own fault.   

We should probably keep the caster level for it, since it probably has some game ramifications based on the fact they mentioned it in the vampire spawn's entry.


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## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

The only way I see it mattering is duration, and we already decided not to bother with duration.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

any further thoughts here?


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

I think that's about it for these guys.

BTW, welcome back, BOZ!  We've missed ya.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

i was busy all weekend trying to fix my computer problems: http://www.nutkinland.com/showthread.php?t=8053


by the way, regarding keeping the caster level for vapor form:



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The only way I see it mattering is duration, and we already decided not to bother with duration.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

I am a techie, so hopefully I can help you out.   

To get rid of fastsearch.cc, check this out:
http://www.pchell.com/support/fastsearch.shtml

Follow the link to cwshredder.   I had to use this program on my in-laws' machine, and it did a great job getting rid of those annoying "home page hijakers".

Back on topic, I agree that the caster level is no longer necessary.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

thanks for the advice, you can e-mail to me if you have more.  

looks like this li'l fella is done!


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

I do believe he is.  What's next?


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

sea snail, to finish off MC5 for good.    (well, except the horgar, but we'll worry about that one in the 1E modules thread)

after that, you'll notice i modified the first post of this thread...


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

Excellent.  I patiently await the arrival of the sea snail.  (Snails are fast, right?)


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

usually!


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## BOZ (Mar 21, 2004)

Snail - Sea
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any/Large bodies of salt water
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6 (see below)
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 12
THACO: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Paralysis (see below)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (15' tall, 20' long)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 10,000

Sea Snail

These behemoths of the deep measure up to 20 feet in length. Sea snails are a variety of giant conch. Their skins are rubbery (AC 6), but their shells are incredibly thick (AC -4).

Sea snails live in all seas and oceans. Their shells vary in color from bright red to flat white with a pink, interior.

Giant snails are sometimes tamed by tritons.

If attacked, sea snails withdraw into their shell and release a vicious neurotoxin into the surrounding water. This poison affects all creatures within 20 feet, paralyzing them for 1d6 hours unless they roll successful saving throws vs. poison with a -3 penalty. If the attack continues, the sea snail will wail. The round following the wail 1d10 charmed tritons arrive. Each round thereafter 1d10 more tritons arrive until a total of 50 are on the scene. These tritons fight to the death in defense of the sea snail.

The value of the snail's shell depends on the shell quality. The base price is 4,000 gp, doubled for an unblemished shell.



some preliminary stats for the sea snail:

*Snail, Sea*
Huge Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 12d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 24 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+X
Attack: 
Full Attack: Bite?? +X melee (2d8+X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: paralyze
Special Qualities: wail
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 1, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 5?

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: ---


A tuyewera is 6 feet tall and weighs X pounds.


COMBAT


Originally found in Monstrous Compendium MC5 - Greyhawk Appendix (1990).


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

Any particular reason not to make it a plain ol' animal?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A tuyewera is 6 feet tall and weighs X pounds.



That's nice, but what about the sea snail?   

(Cut n' paste is a fickle mistress).


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## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

MC5 said:
			
		

> If the attack continues, the sea snail will wail. The round following the wail 1d10 charmed tritons arrive. Each round thereafter 1d10 more tritons arrive until a total of 50 are on the scene. These tritons fight to the death in defense of the sea snail.




this would be the only reason I could think of.  Is that sufficient?

BTW, here’s something to contemplate… http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=81096


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> this would be the only reason I could think of. Is that sufficient?



You're right.  That definitely says "magical beast".



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> BTW, here’s something to contemplate… http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=81096



Ooo!   Very nice.   I'll need to gather all that up for the Monster Indices thread.   I don't think I've done one for Greyhawk yet.


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## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

take your time on that - i'd expect more people to weigh in before long.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2004)

For ability scores, I'd recommend using the giant slug's as a baseline:

Str 19, Dex 10, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

We could probably take that straight-on.  Maybe a higher Cha since it’s not (completely) mindless, and possibly a lower Dex.

Don’t want to spend a ton of time tying up this loose end; more in a few minutes.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

busier today than i thought.  



> NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16




There is no explanation offered at all as to what this attack is.  Could be a bite, a slam, or something else?  Regardless, it won’t be used very often because:



> If attacked, sea snails withdraw into their shell and release a vicious neurotoxin into the surrounding water. This poison affects all creatures within 20 feet, paralyzing them for 1d6 hours unless they roll successful saving throws vs. poison with a -3 penalty.




poison?  Supernatural ability?



> If the attack continues, the sea snail will wail. The round following the wail 1d10 charmed tritons arrive. Each round thereafter 1d10 more tritons arrive until a total of 50 are on the scene. These tritons fight to the death in defense of the sea snail.




could be like a summon monster spell, or perhaps it is a sonic effect that charms tritons?


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## Krishnath (Apr 6, 2004)

As these creatures are in essence a giant (and slightly magical) version of the common conch snail, the attack would be from it's tounge (yes it sounds stupid but it's true).

As for the neurotoxin, that would be a poison cloud that is extraordinary in form.

And for the wail, I say that it is a sonic mind-affecting effect that is supernatural in origin... We should probably give it a save DC with a +4 racial bonus or some such...


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

I agree with all that Krishnath proposed, and also recommend Ability Focus (neurotoxin) to account for that -3 penalty on saving throws.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

So…
Poison (Ex): 20-foot radius could around snail, Fortitude DC X, initial damage paralyzed 1d6 hours, secondary damage 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Wail (Su): A sea snail can let out a supersonic (or was that subsonic?) wail that can be heard for up to a mile.  This wail affects tritons as a charm person spell.  All tritons in range that fail their saving throw (Will DC X) converge on the sea snail at top speed, and will defend it to the death.  This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

(we can raise the Cha since it is not mindless and is a magical beast – Cha 10 would suffice, as tritons only have Will +4, and the save DC would be 16)


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Poison (Ex): 20-foot radius could around snail, Fortitude DC X, initial damage paralyzed 1d6 hours, secondary damage 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Constitution-based.



Make that "cloud" (Type O Demon strikes again) and you might want to mention that it is contact poison.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Wail (Su): A sea snail can let out a supersonic (or was that subsonic?) wail that can be heard for up to a mile. This wail affects tritons as a charm person spell. All tritons in range that fail their saving throw (Will DC X) converge on the sea snail at top speed, and will defend it to the death. This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> (we can raise the Cha since it is not mindless and is a magical beast – Cha 10 would suffice, as tritons only have Will +4, and the save DC would be 16)



Excellent.  I dunno if it's super or subsonic.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

Better?  
Poison (Ex): Contact (20-foot radius COULD around snail), Fortitude DC X, initial damage paralyzed 1d6 hours, secondary damage 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Went and looked up subsonic, “of, relating to, or being a speed less than that of sound in air”, and I now remember that supersonic means really fast.    I’ll just keep it simple and go with “high-pitched” instead.

And raising Cha to 10 (or maybe raising the amps to 11) sounds good?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

It all sounds subsonically good to me.  I feel as if a gray _could_ has been lifted.   BTW, why not just raise the amps to 10?


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

because these amps go to 11!


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## BOZ (Apr 9, 2004)

posting in homebrews, have a look.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

Space/reach:  15/10

Feats:  Ability Focus (poison), Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will

Skills:  Spot 8, Listen 7

CR:  An elephant is CR 7, with comparable damage, one less HD and one less special ability.  So 7 should work for snail, right?

I think we can skip weight since most fully-aquatic creatures don't list it.


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## BOZ (Apr 12, 2004)

that all sounds good.

only thing i really see left are the DCs.  how about DC 17 for poison, and DC 16 for wail.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

Poison should be DC 19 (due to Ability Focus).  DC 16 is right for wail.


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## BOZ (Apr 12, 2004)

good call!    updating for one final look...


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

It looks good.


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## BOZ (Apr 13, 2004)

cool, got that out of the way quick enough.  Greyhawk Adventures is finito, and with the horgar MC5 should be done as well.

ok, as for the next monster to work on... i'm going to have to look through that long, long thread and pick out what needs to be done, and see what sources i actually have before i have to go and ask other people to post stats for me.    i know i have some of these, but i will have to determine which ones i have before we continue.


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

Ok, here are some descriptions from WoG sources that I have available – anything here some interesting enough to start with?  

WG9 - Gargoyle
Gargoyle of the Tors – 4 HD – Neutral gargoyle with detachable wings, friendly and peaceful

WGA1 - Falcon's Revenge 
Scryxull - "zombie snake" - 4 HD, fear, strength drain bite, paralyzing spittle 
Grythok - insect-like creatures, 1-HD, detect good, burrows into flesh and eats, carry disease 
Carpet Snake - 3-HD, can merge with fabrics, swallow whole (small creatures) 

WGA2 - Falconmaster 
Strangleweed - (may be different from more common plant of same name) - 1HD but appears in groups of 12 or more 
Weisshund (German for white dog, of course) - 4HD, alignment NG, detect evil, grows to Large size 
Yphoz - 2HD, looks like underground jellyfish, paralysis, blood drain 

WGR3 - Rary the Traitor
Desert Centaur – 5 HD – not terribly different from a normal centaur, but we can have a more in-depth look
Manscorpion – 8 HD – has poison sting, not sure if this is same as the FR stinger
Monarch Scorpion – Monarch is 8 HD, master is 12 HD – both have poison and psionics

WGA4 - Vecna Lives!
The Eye – 12 HD – superhumanly quick, immune to surprise, gaze drains life force
The Hand – 13 HD – crushes with “hand” head and does Strength damage
(both of these freaks are modified humanoids that have had their heads replaced with body parts to symbolize the fabled parts of Vecna that he lost)


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> WGA4 - Vecna Lives!
> The Eye – 12 HD – superhumanly quick, immune to surprise, gaze drains life force
> The Hand – 13 HD – crushes with “hand” head and does Strength damage
> (both of these freaks are modified humanoids that have had their heads replaced with body parts to symbolize the fabled parts of Vecna that he lost)



Bring on the freaks!


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

and freaks they are!

but you can't say that to their faces, because... they don't have any.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2004)

Thank goodness there wasn't a "butt of vecna".


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## Filby (Apr 19, 2004)

Re: The Eye and The Hand... I recall that their stats were also given in the very late 2E Greyhawk/Ravenloft/Planescape cross-over adventure, _Die, Vecna, Die!_ (the best adventure title ever), if you desire a second reference source.


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

i'm sure it would be... the butt of many jokes.  

and filby thanks, but i don't have that one.  anyone else have it?


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## BOZ (May 10, 2004)

got myself a copy of Die Vecna Die!  

OK, you ready?  Here they come… (walking down the street, they get the funniest looks from everyone they meet…)

from Vecna Lives:

The Hand
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil

NO. APPEARING:	1
ARMOR CLASS:	0
MOVEMENT:	12
HIT DICE: 13
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8 (x2, weapon) + 7/1-10+7
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Strength drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (4'6")
MORALE: Champion
XP VALUE: 7,000

The Hand is the second of the cult of Vecna's two lieutenants, the other being the Eye. Like the Eye, the Hand is a created being, a human modified by powerful spells to become what it is today. Only one has ever been identified, and given the difficulty of creating the Hand, it is likely that only one exists.

The Hand is a squat, heavily muscled humanoid, almost dwarven in size and shape.  As part of the transformation, the Hand no longer has a head.  Instead, a giant hand sprouts from its neck. There are no indications of mouth or sensory organs, yet the Hand does not seem impaired for the lack of these. The Hand dresses In a pleated kilt, decorated with colorful swirls and jagged stripes. A thick leather girdle, festooned with daggers, is its only other  garb. In public it wears a blue-green robe with a large hood. It grips an embossed leather mask to hide its "face."

Combat- The Hand was intended to fight, to be the muscle of the of the Cult of Vecna. It is well-suited to the task. The Hand has a 19 Strength (+3 to attack rolls and +7 to damage).  It fights with weapons in its two normal hands and crushes with the third, strange appendage.

	The Hand normally begins a battle by throwing daggers (1d4 +7 points of damage), two per turn. It carries 12 daggers on Its belt. Just before closing for a melee, it draws the two swords carried on its back. It can fight with both of these with no penalty. The third hand is used to seize and crush the opponent, causing 1d10 + 7 points	of damage with a successful attack  (and holding on to squeeze for the same damage each round after a successful attack).

	It is by this third attack that the Hand feeds. Lacking a mouth, it finds nourishment by drawing the strength from other things, living and non-living. Gripped in its third hand, steel becomes brittle like glass until It finally crumbles into dust. Living creatures lose 1d6 points of Strength each round they are held. The Hand can maintain Its grip from round to round, both causing damage draining Strength.  Held characters can break free by rolling a successful Strength check.  If a character is drained to 0 Strength or less, he dies.  Lost Strength is regained at the rate of one point per day,

Habitat/Society: The Hand was created, through spells, by the wizard-priests of Vecna. The process is incredibly complex and torturously painful – indeed, so much so, that it peels the essence of humanity away from its subject.  What is left is a barely intelligent, bestial thing.  Unable to speak, the Hand can only express its rages through mute gestures. Like the Eye, the Hand is marked by strange behaviors. Fawning submissiveness, gently stroking a friendly hand, suddenly becomes hysterical rage, as he blindly flings himself at walls. Even when calm, the Hand is never still, trembling and twitching uncontrollably.

Since it lacks mouth and ears, the priests communicate with the Hand via telepathy. Although it lacks sensory organs, the Hand is endowed with magical senses equal to or slightly better than a normal person's. The Hand is immune to darkness, blindness, deafness, and other attacks that would affect a normal creature’s sensory organs. A dispel magic renders it blind for one round.

Ecology: Among the cultists of Vecna, the Hand Is ranked after the high priests and the Eye.  It is held in great fear by the cult's followers, since it carries out the pronouncernents of the high priests, but Its brute physical quality does not inspire the icy terror of a more sinister being like the Eye.



The Eye
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary/cult
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
TREASURE: W
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 12
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10 (weapon)/gaze
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Gaze
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to surprise, - I to Initiative
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil

SIZE: M (5'-7' tall)
MORALE: Champion (15)
XP VALUE: 6,000

The Eye is one at the chief lieutenants of the Cult of Vecna. Although only one has ever been seen, it is impossible to be certain that there is only one of these creatures. The Eye is a creation of Vecna's and, thus, It is entirely possible that more than one exists.

The Eye stands seven feet tall. Once It was human, but to become the Eye it has been transformed. Its head has been replaced by a giant eyeball. Its body is slender and moves with a quick, light grace. The Eye normally dresses In long green robes, trimmed with red. Eyes, embroidered in golden thread, decorate the hems. In public, it covers its robes with a gray cloak, and its head is concealed by a deep hood,

Combat: The Eye's main purpose is not to fight, but to gain Information. It is not, however, without combat ability, The Eye normally fights with a two-handed sward. It also keeps two dirks hidden, one strapped, hilt down, to each arm In situations in which it cannot use the sword, it crosses its arms, then whips out the two daggers to fight two-handed. It is lightning quick (19 Dexterity) and astoundingly graceful.

The Eye has several powers derived from its transformation. The least of these is that it cannot be surprised, as long as it is awake. It gains a -1 bonus to all initiative from a limited form of clairvoyance.

	It is the gaze power of the Eye that is most fearsome. The Eye no longer eats in the normal sense, but it feeds on the souls of others drawn In by its gaze. Each round, the Eye can use its gaze attack on one target. Unless previously said to be avoiding the Eye's gaze, the victim must roll a saving throw vs. death. Those who succeed suffer no ill effect that round; those who fail are claimed by the Eye. Their life force is drawn Into the Eye and held there. (This Is seen by others as a ghostly form being sucked into the Eye.) The victim's body falls inert. The Eye cannot consume Its metaphysical prey until the body is destroyed but once that Is done the trapped life-force is devoured and can never be recovered by any means short of divine power.

If the Eye is slain, those life forces it has trapped but not devoured instantly return to their proper bodies, The Eye can voluntarily release any undevoured life forces. As a side effect, the Eye gains access to all the memories of those it traps.

Habitat/Society: The Eye is a creation of the wizard-priests of the Cult of Vecna, possibly through the intercession of Vecna himself. The process of creating the Eye is unknown to all but the highest ranking members of the cult, but it Involves wish and other high-level spells. Because the process Is difficult, time-consuming, and dangerous, there is believed to be only one Eye at a time.

Whatever the process is, it strips the Eye of all humanity. The Eye feels no emotional bonds or noble virtues, and it displays several peculiar mannerisms. Limited precognition causes the Eye to finish the sentences of others before they have a chance to say them. The Eye surrounds Itself by mirrors and is fascinated by reflections. Sadistically cruel, the Eye purges Its own pain and frustrations on helpless victims.

According to the cult priests, the Eye's purpose is to be Vecna's senses on the Prime Material plane. The Eye has a limited precognition (as described in the combat section) that is constantly in effect. It can use clairvoyance, detect magic, and find traps at will. The Eye automatically detects all illusions.

	The Eye's primary purpose is as a psychic tracker for the priests of Vecna. Once the Eye has seen an intelligent being – either directly or through scrying - it can sense that creature's aura over large distances.  The range depends on the abilities of the player character.  Those with no spellcasting ability can be detected only within a one-mile radius.  Those with any spellcasting abilities are detectable at a radius in mules equal to their spell level. Thus a 12th level wizard (who is able to cast spells up to 6th level) is detectable within a six-mile radius.

	The Eye's tracking ability is not infallible. Large concentrations of magical energy can shield a target's aura. Artifacts, stockpiles of magic items, or even areas with a high preponderance of spellcasters all have this effect. For example, simply entering the Guild of Wizardry is enough to block the Eye's tracking sense. In doubtful cases, the Eye must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell to retain the "scent."  

The Eye is able to communicate telepathically with whomever it wishes.

Ecology: The Eye is only one part of the Cult It of Vecna. Because of Its peculiar properties and specialized creation, it is regarded with awe by the rank and file. It Is not a priest or part of that priesthood, but rather a tool they created. It is utterly loyal to the high priest of the cult and will take commands only from them.



“Die Vecna Die” had the following stats for this pair, but there is a lot of text from the module itself regarding them.

Hand Servitor: AC 0; MV 12; HD13; hp 104; THACO 7 (6 with longsword +1,5 with longsword +2); #AT 3; Dmg ld8+8/ld8+9/ldlO+7 (longsword +l/longsword +2/grasp); SA grasp, Strength drain; SZ M (4'6"tall); ML champion (16); Int low (7); AL CE; XP 8,000.

Special Abilities: Grasp —a successful attack by third hand allows the Hand Servitor to retain its hold, automatically doing ldl0+7 hit points/round in crushing damage, unless victim can break free with successful Bend Bars/Lift Gates roll. Each round the grasp does damage, it also automatically drains Id6 Strength points from victim, killing victim if Strength reaches 0; otherwise lost Strength returns at 1 point/day.

Eye Servitor: AC 2; MV 12; HD 12; hp 96; THACO 9 (7 with two-handed sword +2); #AT 1; Dmg ldlO+2 (two-handed sword +2); SA death gaze, cast clairvoyance, detect magic, and find traps at will; SD immune to surprise, -1 bonus to initiative rolls, immune to all illusionists M (5'7"tall); ML champion (15); Int exceptional (15); AL CE; XP 9,000.

Special Abilities: Death gaze —once per round, the Eye Servitor can use its gaze attack on 1 target. Unless explicitly attempting to avoid the gaze, the target must succeed at a saving throw vs. death magic. The Eye claims those who fail by visibly drawing their life force into it, leaving the body inert. If the body is destroyed, the Eye consumes its stolen life force, but until then, the life force remains viable, though displaced. If the Eye is slain, the life force rejoins its inert body (the Eye may voluntarily release the life force, but it is unlikely to do so). The Eye gains all the memories of each life force it holds.


some preliminary stats for the Hand:

*The Hand*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 13d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 2 longswords +X melee (1d8+X/19-20) and slam +X melee (1d10+X) or 2 daggers +X ranged (1d4+X/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: crush, strength damage
Special Qualities: blindsight 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str (19 in 2E), Dex X, Con X, Int 7, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 5

Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or cult (X)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

The Hand is 4 ½ feet tall, and weighs X pounds.

The Hand cannot speak.

COMBAT


some preliminary stats for the Eye:

*The Eye*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 12d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: Greatsword +X melee (2d6+X/19-20) or 2 daggers +X melee (1d4+X/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: death gaze (can attack in the same round)
Special Qualities: detect illusions/immunity, immune to surprise, limited clairvoyance (+1 to initiative?), precognition, tracking sense, telepathy 100 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex 19, Con X, Int 15, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X (gather information, intimidate, bonus to Spot & Search)
Feats: 5

Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or cult (X)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: (W)
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

The Eye is 7 feet tall, and weighs X pounds.

The Eye speaks…

COMBAT


Originally found in module WGA4 – Vecna Lives! (1990, David “Zeb” Cook) and Die Vecna Die! (2000).


----------



## Shade (May 10, 2004)

Wow!  They are even freakier than I'd imagined.   

For the Hand, Str 19 converts to 24 from 2E to 3E, per the conversion guide.

The Hand needs at least Dex 15 for Two-Weapon Fighting.  (Or should it have Multiweapon Fighting, since it kinda has three hands?)


----------



## qstor (May 29, 2004)

The manscorpian is called a stinger IIRC in the Monsters of Faerun.

Boz, have you added any of the new Greyhawk monsters to the Creature Catalog.

Mike


----------



## BOZ (May 29, 2004)

why yes i have!  from this thread, we have finished and added:

Crystalmist
Ingundi
Mist Wolf
Vapor Rat
Sea Snail

and that is not to mention any other Greyhawk monsters we had there already: http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/index.php


----------



## BOZ (Aug 11, 2004)

don't think that i've forgotten these freaks.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 11, 2004)

OK, the last of the “leftovers” from before I went AWOL.



> Thank goodness there wasn't a "butt of vecna".




ever seen that episode of Tiny Toon Adventures with “Big Butt”?  one of Mrs. Boz’s favorites.  

By the way, which is better for them – Monstrous Humanoid or Aberration?  It’s not too late to change yet.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The Hand needs at least Dex 15 for Two-Weapon Fighting. (Or should it have Multiweapon Fighting, since it kinda has three hands?)




noted on the Dex.  As for Multiweapon, I’d say no – that feat is for creatures that use a weapon in more than two hands (i.e., marilith for one), of which this guy is not.  That “head-hand” is more like a gigantic flyswatter.  

Now, we can work on them at the same time, focusing on their similarities and differences, or we can treat them as separate entities and do one at a time – or switch back and forth.


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ever seen that episode of Tiny Toon Adventures with “Big Butt”? one of Mrs. Boz’s favorites.



Sadly, I don't remember that one.   My memories of Pinkie and the Brain are better.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> By the way, which is better for them – Monstrous Humanoid or Aberration? It’s not too late to change yet.



Monstrous Humanoid seems the most appropriate.  They are essentially humanoids with one monstrous feature. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> noted on the Dex. As for Multiweapon, I’d say no – that feat is for creatures that use a weapon in more than two hands (i.e., marilith for one), of which this guy is not. That “head-hand” is more like a gigantic flyswatter.



D'oh!   I don't know what I was thinking way back then.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Now, we can work on them at the same time, focusing on their similarities and differences, or we can treat them as separate entities and do one at a time – or switch back and forth.



I think it would work best if we work on them at the same time, focusing on their similarities and differences.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 11, 2004)

These two weirdos are going to have some things in common from their shared creations, but of course they are two sides of the same coin and will feature a wide range of differences.  Let’s just take the stats from “Vecna Lives” head on (so to speak) and see what we come up with from there.  (we’ll compare the Die Vecna Die stuff later)

from Vecna Lives:

The Hand
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8 (x2, weapon) + 7/1-10+7
(I’d like to see this guy be able to apply his full damage bonus to the slam attack – is there a precedent for that?  Or should that only be applied to the resulting crushing attack?)

There are no indications of mouth or sensory organs, yet the Hand does not seem impaired for the lack of these.
(right – that’s why we have blindsight/blindsense these days!) 

The Hand normally begins a battle by throwing daggers (1d4 +7 points of damage), two per turn. It carries 12 daggers on its belt.
(would the Two-Weapon Fighting also need to be applied to throwing two daggers?)

Just before closing for a melee, it draws the two swords carried on its back. It can fight with both of these with no penalty.
(cool)  

The third hand is used to seize and crush the opponent, causing 1d10 + 7 points of damage with a successful attack  (and holding on to squeeze for the same damage each round after a successful attack).
(Improved grab for one thing…)

It is by this third attack that the Hand feeds. Lacking a mouth, it finds nourishment by drawing the strength from other things, living and non-living. Gripped in its third hand, steel becomes brittle like glass until it finally crumbles into dust. Living creatures lose 1d6 points of Strength each round they are held. The Hand can maintain Its grip from round to round, both causing damage draining Strength.  Held characters can break free by rolling a successful Strength check.  If a character is drained to 0 Strength or less, he dies.  Lost Strength is regained at the rate of one point per day.
(so then this is Str damage and not drain?  And should the effect it has on materials be a second ability or part of the same thing?)

Since it lacks mouth and ears, the priests communicate with the Hand via telepathy. Although it lacks sensory organs, the Hand is endowed with magical senses equal to or slightly better than a normal person's. The Hand is immune to darkness, blindness, deafness, and other attacks that would affect a normal creature’s sensory organs. A dispel magic renders it blind for one round.
(aha!)




The Eye
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10 (weapon)/gaze
(so – it can attack with the greatsword and gaze in the same round. Gaze as free action 1/round?)

In situations in which it cannot use the sword, it crosses its arms, then whips out the two daggers to fight two-handed.
(same question as with the Hand?)

The Eye has several powers derived from its transformation. The least of these is that it cannot be surprised, as long as it is awake. It gains a -1 bonus to all initiative from a limited form of clairvoyance.
(remember – a –1 was a good thing!  Improved Initiative, or maybe this comes from a Su ability?)

It is the gaze power of the Eye that is most fearsome. The Eye no longer eats in the normal sense, but it feeds on the souls of others drawn in by its gaze. Each round, the Eye can use its gaze attack on one target. Unless previously said to be avoiding the Eye's gaze, the victim must roll a saving throw vs. death. Those who succeed suffer no ill effect that round; those who fail are claimed by the Eye. Their life force is drawn into the Eye and held there. (This is seen by others as a ghostly form being sucked into the Eye.) The victim's body falls inert. The Eye cannot consume its metaphysical prey until the body is destroyed but once that is done the trapped life-force is devoured and can never be recovered by any means short of divine power.

If the Eye is slain, those life forces it has trapped but not devoured instantly return to their proper bodies, The Eye can voluntarily release any undevoured life forces. As a side effect, the Eye gains access to all the memories of those it traps.

Limited precognition causes the Eye to finish the sentences of others before they have a chance to say them.
(meh?)

The Eye has a limited precognition (as described in the combat section) that is constantly in effect. It can use clairvoyance, detect magic, and find traps at will. The Eye automatically detects all illusions.
(that’s better.  I’d say that these are less likely spell-like abilities, but more subclasses of a Su ability like we did with the krakentua.)

The Eye's primary purpose is as a psychic tracker for the priests of Vecna. Once the Eye has seen an intelligent being – either directly or through scrying - it can sense that creature's aura over large distances.  The range depends on the abilities of the player character.  Those with no spellcasting ability can be detected only within a one-mile radius.  Those with any spellcasting abilities are detectable at a radius in mules equal to their spell level. Thus a 12th level wizard (who is able to cast spells up to 6th level) is detectable within a six-mile radius.

The Eye's tracking ability is not infallible. Large concentrations of magical energy can shield a target's aura. Artifacts, stockpiles of magic items, or even areas with a high preponderance of spellcasters all have this effect. For example, simply entering the Guild of Wizardry is enough to block the Eye's tracking sense. In doubtful cases, the Eye must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell to retain the "scent."
(better than the Track feat!)

The Eye is able to communicate telepathically with whomever it wishes.
(easy enough.)


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> The Hand
> NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8 (x2, weapon) + 7/1-10+7
> (I’d like to see this guy be able to apply his full damage bonus to the slam attack – is there a precedent for that? Or should that only be applied to the resulting crushing attack?)



Well, if we make it his primary weapon, won't that cover it?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> There are no indications of mouth or sensory organs, yet the Hand does not seem impaired for the lack of these.
> (right – that’s why we have blindsight/blindsense these days!)



Woo-hoo!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The Hand normally begins a battle by throwing daggers (1d4 +7 points of damage), two per turn. It carries 12 daggers on its belt.
> (would the Two-Weapon Fighting also need to be applied to throwing two daggers?)



Yes indeed.  From the srd...

Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Just before closing for a melee, it draws the two swords carried on its back. It can fight with both of these with no penalty.
> (cool)



Very.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The third hand is used to seize and crush the opponent, causing 1d10 + 7 points of damage with a successful attack (and holding on to squeeze for the same damage each round after a successful attack).
> (Improved grab for one thing…)



Yeah, and constrict, methinks.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> It is by this third attack that the Hand feeds. Lacking a mouth, it finds nourishment by drawing the strength from other things, living and non-living. Gripped in its third hand, steel becomes brittle like glass until it finally crumbles into dust. Living creatures lose 1d6 points of Strength each round they are held. The Hand can maintain Its grip from round to round, both causing damage draining Strength. Held characters can break free by rolling a successful Strength check. If a character is drained to 0 Strength or less, he dies. Lost Strength is regained at the rate of one point per day.
> (so then this is Str damage and not drain? And should the effect it has on materials be a second ability or part of the same thing?)



It does sound like Strength damage, rather than drain.  I'd make the "grip of ruin" a different ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Since it lacks mouth and ears, the priests communicate with the Hand via telepathy. Although it lacks sensory organs, the Hand is endowed with magical senses equal to or slightly better than a normal person's. The Hand is immune to darkness, blindness, deafness, and other attacks that would affect a normal creature’s sensory organs. A dispel magic renders it blind for one round.
> (aha!)



Talk to the Hand!   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The Eye
> NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10 (weapon)/gaze
> (so – it can attack with the greatsword and gaze in the same round. Gaze as free action 1/round?)



That sounds about right.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> In situations in which it cannot use the sword, it crosses its arms, then whips out the two daggers to fight two-handed.
> (same question as with the Hand?)



Same answer, plus Quick Draw.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The Eye has several powers derived from its transformation. The least of these is that it cannot be surprised, as long as it is awake. It gains a -1 bonus to all initiative from a limited form of clairvoyance.
> (remember – a –1 was a good thing! Improved Initiative, or maybe this comes from a Su ability?)



I'd give it Improved Init, plus an insight bonus to AC.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> It is the gaze power of the Eye that is most fearsome. The Eye no longer eats in the normal sense, but it feeds on the souls of others drawn in by its gaze. Each round, the Eye can use its gaze attack on one target. Unless previously said to be avoiding the Eye's gaze, the victim must roll a saving throw vs. death. Those who succeed suffer no ill effect that round; those who fail are claimed by the Eye. Their life force is drawn into the Eye and held there. (This is seen by others as a ghostly form being sucked into the Eye.) The victim's body falls inert. The Eye cannot consume its metaphysical prey until the body is destroyed but once that is done the trapped life-force is devoured and can never be recovered by any means short of divine power.



Sounds like trap the soul.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> If the Eye is slain, those life forces it has trapped but not devoured instantly return to their proper bodies, The Eye can voluntarily release any undevoured life forces. As a side effect, the Eye gains access to all the memories of those it traps.



Hmmm...perhaps we can look to the crawling head and brain collector for inspiration.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Limited precognition causes the Eye to finish the sentences of others before they have a chance to say them.
> (meh?)



Detect thoughts always active?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The Eye has a limited precognition (as described in the combat section) that is constantly in effect. It can use clairvoyance, detect magic, and find traps at will. The Eye automatically detects all illusions.
> (that’s better. I’d say that these are less likely spell-like abilities, but more subclasses of a Su ability like we did with the krakentua.)



Yes, or say that they are spell-likes always in effect (like solars and others have).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The Eye's primary purpose is as a psychic tracker for the priests of Vecna. Once the Eye has seen an intelligent being – either directly or through scrying - it can sense that creature's aura over large distances. The range depends on the abilities of the player character. Those with no spellcasting ability can be detected only within a one-mile radius. Those with any spellcasting abilities are detectable at a radius in mules equal to their spell level. Thus a 12th level wizard (who is able to cast spells up to 6th level) is detectable within a six-mile radius.



A modified form of locate creature and/or find the path?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The Eye's tracking ability is not infallible. Large concentrations of magical energy can shield a target's aura. Artifacts, stockpiles of magic items, or even areas with a high preponderance of spellcasters all have this effect. For example, simply entering the Guild of Wizardry is enough to block the Eye's tracking sense. In doubtful cases, the Eye must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell to retain the "scent."
> (better than the Track feat!)



Indeed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The Eye is able to communicate telepathically with whomever it wishes.
> (easy enough.)



Yeah, I'd say so.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 12, 2004)

The Hand



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Well, if we make it his primary weapon, won't that cover it?




wouldn’t that automatically be its primary weapon anyway, since that is its only natural weapon?  The question is, however, about how damage bonuses work with two weapon attacks and one natural attack.  I’m not sure about how all the attack bonuses add up either.



> Yeah, and constrict, methinks.




which, of course, is a related question.    I’m used to seeing Constrict used with snakes and snake-like creatures, but I guess it still works with any attack that squeezes prey?  Now the question I have is, if the full damage modifier normally goes to the two swords, would the slam get only half (+3)?  And would it still get only +3 for the constrict or would that do the full +7?



> It does sound like Strength damage, rather than drain. I'd make the "grip of ruin" a different ability.




I’m thinking, possibly, that it should do Str damage to any grabbed opponent whether or not it is constricted?

“grip of ruin” – heh, I like that.  



> Talk to the Hand!




  it doesn’t sound from the description that the Hand has telepathy, unlike the Eye.  “the priests communicate with the Hand via telepathy” is in a passive voice, so it sounds like the priests are the ones who initiate telepathic communication.  Made that into flavor text:
“The Hand cannot speak.  It does think, however, and can be communicated with telepathically.”

Also, should we state anything about it being blind or can we allow the DM to make the assumption that it is “immune to darkness, blindness, deafness, and other attacks that would affect a normal creature’s sensory organs”?

And when I look at this sentence again, I’m wondering if its blindsight is magical in nature: “A dispel magic renders it blind for one round.”


The Eye:



> I'd give it Improved Init, plus an insight bonus to AC.




good call!    also, is there some sort of ability to cover this: “it cannot be surprised, as long as it is awake”?  could be another monk ability, or something the rogue has.



> Sounds like trap the soul.




Ah, hmm, yes it does to a point.  Let’s see…

“Death Gaze (Su): The Eye can feed on the souls of living beings by drawing them in with its gaze.  This attack can be used as a free action, once per round, against a single target within 60 feet that can see the Eye.  The victim must succeed on a DC X Will save or have its life force held in a manner similar to trap the soul.  Instead of the victim’s body disappearing, it falls inert.  The victim’s life force is drawn out of the body, seen by others as a ghostly version of the victim, which is then sucked into the Eye’s body and held there.

If the Eye is slain, any life forces trapped within it instantly return to their proper bodies.  The Eye can voluntarily release any life force it has not yet devoured as a free action.  The Eye has access to all of the memories of any trapped victims.  A life force otherwise remains trapped within the Eye until its true body is destroyed, at which point the life force will be devoured by the Eye and permanently lost to any means short of divine intervention.”



> Hmmm...perhaps we can look to the crawling head and brain collector for inspiration.




why, what do they have?  



> Detect thoughts always active?




does that involve precognitive abilities?  I’m not sure whether or not we need to go here.



> Yes, or say that they are spell-likes always in effect (like solars and others have).




I’ll look into it.  



> A modified form of locate creature and/or find the path?




not sure – I’ll have to give that one some thought too.


----------



## Shade (Aug 16, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> wouldn’t that automatically be its primary weapon anyway, since that is its only natural weapon? The question is, however, about how damage bonuses work with two weapon attacks and one natural attack. I’m not sure about how all the attack bonuses add up either.



Let the SRD be our guide...

"Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> which, of course, is a related question.  I’m used to seeing Constrict used with snakes and snake-like creatures, but I guess it still works with any attack that squeezes prey? Now the question I have is, if the full damage modifier normally goes to the two swords, would the slam get only half (+3)? And would it still get only +3 for the constrict or would that do the full +7?



Yeah, constrict works with other attacks (see choker, chuul, etc.).
"Primary weapons use a creature’s full attack bonus, no matter how many primary weapons it has. The monster applies its full Strength bonus on damage rolls with its primary natural weapons, or 1-1/2 times its Strength bonus if the monster has only one primary natural weapon (for example, a wolf's bite)."

"All other natural weapons are secondary attacks. Reduce the creature’s attack bonus by 5 for all such attacks, no matter how many there are. Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks. A monster applies 1/2 its Strength bonus on damage rolls with its secondary natural weapons."

So, assuming the slam is the primary attack, it would look something like this:

Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+13+Str
Attack:  Slam +13 melee (XdX+Str) or longsword +13 melee (1d8+Str/19-20) or dagger +13 ranged (1d4+1/2 Str)
Full Attack: Slam +13 melee (XdX+Str) and 2 longswords +4 melee (1d8+Half Str/19-20) or 2 daggers +13 ranged (1d4+Str/19-20)

Note the -4 penalty to the longswords for fighting with a one-handed weapon in both hands (rather than a light weapon).   This also assumes that it has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m thinking, possibly, that it should do Str damage to any grabbed opponent whether or not it is constricted?



That is probably a good idea.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “grip of ruin” – heh, I like that.



 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it doesn’t sound from the description that the Hand has telepathy, unlike the Eye. “the priests communicate with the Hand via telepathy” is in a passive voice, so it sounds like the priests are the ones who initiate telepathic communication. Made that into flavor text:
> “The Hand cannot speak. It does think, however, and can be communicated with telepathically.”



Good catch.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, should we state anything about it being blind or can we allow the DM to make the assumption that it is “immune to darkness, blindness, deafness, and other attacks that would affect a normal creature’s sensory organs”?



Borrowed from the ooze type:

Blind (Ex):  The Hand is blind (but has the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And when I look at this sentence again, I’m wondering if its blindsight is magical in nature: “A dispel magic renders it blind for one round.”



Most likely. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> good call!  also, is there some sort of ability to cover this: “it cannot be surprised, as long as it is awake”? could be another monk ability, or something the rogue has.



Probably uncanny dodge is the closest ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ah, hmm, yes it does to a point. Let’s see…
> 
> “Death Gaze (Su): The Eye can feed on the souls of living beings by drawing them in with its gaze. This attack can be used as a free action, once per round, against a single target within 60 feet that can see the Eye. The victim must succeed on a DC X Will save or have its life force held in a manner similar to trap the soul. Instead of the victim’s body disappearing, it falls inert. The victim’s life force is drawn out of the body, seen by others as a ghostly version of the victim, which is then sucked into the Eye’s body and held there.
> 
> If the Eye is slain, any life forces trapped within it instantly return to their proper bodies. The Eye can voluntarily release any life force it has not yet devoured as a free action. The Eye has access to all of the memories of any trapped victims. A life force otherwise remains trapped within the Eye until its true body is destroyed, at which point the life force will be devoured by the Eye and permanently lost to any means short of divine intervention.”



Good so far, and see the next answer for more...



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> why, what do they have?



Actually, the crawling head's ability isn't as helpful as I thought.  However...
"A neh-thalggu is free to draw on all the Knowledge skills of each brain it currently stores, using the base ranks in a skill possessed by each brain, and adjusted by the neh-thalggu's own skill modifiers for the Knowledge skill in question (or its Intelligence modifier, for a skill it has no ranks in)."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> does that involve precognitive abilities? I’m not sure whether or not we need to go here.



I was thinking along the lines of the solar and other creatures:

"The following abilities are always active on the solar's person, as the spells (caster level 20th); _detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies_ (DC 21), _see invisibility_, and _true seeing_. They can be dispelled, but the solar can reactivate them as a free action."


----------



## BOZ (Aug 25, 2004)

The Hand:

So, let’s see if I have this right… would these lines look something like this? Assuming Str 24, Dex of about 15, and Two-Weapon fighting.  From what you posted from the SRD, it says to assume that manufactured weapons will be the primary weapon most of the time.  Let’s see how those numbers work out:

Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+20
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d10+7 …

These lines should be standard.
So we have either/or for these:

Attack: Longsword +20 melee (1d8+7/19-20) or slam +20 melee (1d10+7) or dagger +15 ranged (1d4+7/19-20)
Full Attack: 2 longswords +16 melee (1d8+7/19-20) and slam +15 melee (1d10+3) or 2 daggers +11 ranged (1d4+7/19-20)

Attack: Slam +20 melee (1d10+7) or longsword +20 melee (1d8+7/19-20) or dagger +15 ranged (1d4+1/2 Str) (DAGGER is ½ STR?)
Full Attack: Slam +20 melee (1d10+7) and 2 longswords +11 melee (1d8+3/19-20) or 2 daggers +11 ranged (1d4+7/19-20)

The question is, which of those two attack lines looks better?  In the first set for full attack, the Longsword and slam have a nearly equal chance to hit and the damage ratings are also close.  In the second one, the slam has a clear advantage.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Note the -4 penalty to the longswords for fighting with a one-handed weapon in both hands (rather than a light weapon). This also assumes that it has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.




ah, you mean as opposed to the –2 penalty it would get if it was using, say, two short swords instead.




			
				 Borrowed from the ooze type:

Blind (Ex): The Hand is blind (but has the blindsight special quality) said:
			
		

> yes, but it is also deaf.  Let’s see, how’s this for a try:
> 
> “Magical Senses” (Su): The Hand possesses no visual or auditory organs and has immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, sonic effects, and other attack forms that rely on sight and hearing.  Instead, the hand has blindsight out to 60 feet (and an ability to “sense” noise?).  These senses can be suppressed for 1 round by a dispel magic spell.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shade (Aug 25, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> So, let’s see if I have this right… would these lines look something like this? Assuming Str 24, Dex of about 15, and Two-Weapon fighting. From what you posted from the SRD, it says to assume that manufactured weapons will be the primary weapon most of the time. Let’s see how those numbers work out:
> 
> Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+20
> Special Attacks: Constrict 1d10+7 …
> ...



I would go with the second, since the orginal text listed 1d10+7 for the hand.  I think the dagger is always full Str bonus, since it is always listed as an "or" with no "ands", if that makes sense. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> ah, you mean as opposed to the –2 penalty it would get if it was using, say, two short swords instead.



Indeed.   I play a character wielding dual longswords, so I'm very familiar with these penalties.   

Also, if you want to preserve this...



> Just before closing for a melee, it draws the two swords carried on its back. *It can fight with both of these with no penalty*.



...we might borrow this from the marilith and add this...

Feats: In combination with its natural abilities, the Hand's Two-Weapon Fighting feat allows it to attack with two longswords at no penalty.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I was thinking it but couldn’t articulate it.  so, setting it equal to HD…
> 
> Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The Eye retains its Dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed, and it cannot be flanked except by a rogue of at least 16th level. It can flank characters with the uncanny dodge ability as if it were a 12th-level rogue.



Looks good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that’s not quite the same as precognition is it? Wasn’t there an ability somewhere in D&D that let you look a round or two into the future or was that nerfed? If there’s no current rules correspondence, I say we drop this.



Not that I'm aware of.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 26, 2004)

Constrict (Ex): The Hand deals automatic slam damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the Hand must hit with its slam attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can either constrict or deal strength damage or both.




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> ...we might borrow this from the marilith and add this...
> 
> Feats: In combination with its natural abilities, the Hand's Two-Weapon Fighting feat allows it to attack with two longswords at no penalty.




And we will!    and yes, I definitely would like to keep the “no penalty” idea, since it was a stated concept before.


And, what do you think of my idea for the Hand’s sensory powers?  We might also add to that it can’t be flanked or caught flat-footed while the power is active.




> Not that I'm aware of.




then I’m going to nix it as a special power.  Might retain a vestige of it for flavor text though.  Now what would cover the ability to read the mind as described earlier?  It doesn’t have to be much, just enough to know the surface thoughts and such – detect thoughts may be sufficient. I’ll just add the “Eye thinks of it before you do” as flavor text if I want to keep it at all.


Oh yeah, reprinting the stats from “Die Vecna Die” – see if there is anything here we can add to what we have already:

Hand Servitor: AC 0; MV 12; HD13; hp 104; THACO 7 (6 with longsword +1,5 with longsword +2); #AT 3; Dmg ld8+8/ld8+9/ldlO+7 (longsword +l/longsword +2/grasp); SA grasp, Strength drain; SZ M (4'6"tall); ML champion (16); Int low (7); AL CE; XP 8,000.

Special Abilities: Grasp —a successful attack by third hand allows the Hand Servitor to retain its hold, automatically doing 1d10+7 hit points/round in crushing damage, unless victim can break free with successful Bend Bars/Lift Gates roll. Each round the grasp does damage, it also automatically drains 1d6 Strength points from victim, killing victim if Strength reaches 0; otherwise lost Strength returns at 1 point/day.

Eye Servitor: AC 2; MV 12; HD 12; hp 96; THACO 9 (7 with two-handed sword +2); #AT 1; Dmg 1d10+2 (two-handed sword +2); SA death gaze, cast clairvoyance, detect magic, and find traps at will; SD immune to surprise, -1 bonus to initiative rolls, immune to all illusionists M (5'7"tall); ML champion (15); Int exceptional (15); AL CE; XP 9,000.

Special Abilities: Death gaze —once per round, the Eye Servitor can use its gaze attack on 1 target. Unless explicitly attempting to avoid the gaze, the target must succeed at a saving throw vs. death magic. The Eye claims those who fail by visibly drawing their life force into it, leaving the body inert. If the body is destroyed, the Eye consumes its stolen life force, but until then, the life force remains viable, though displaced. If the Eye is slain, the life force rejoins its inert body (the Eye may voluntarily release the life force, but it is unlikely to do so). The Eye gains all the memories of each life force it holds.


----------



## Shade (Aug 26, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Constrict (Ex): The Hand deals automatic slam damage with a successful grapple check.
> 
> Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the Hand must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can either constrict or deal strength damage or both.



Looks good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And we will!  and yes, I definitely would like to keep the “no penalty” idea, since it was a stated concept before.



Great!   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And, what do you think of my idea for the Hand’s sensory powers? We might also add to that it can’t be flanked or caught flat-footed while the power is active.



I don't know how I missed 'em.   They look good, though.  So how about giving it Improved Uncanny Dodge, but with the footnote that it only works while the power is active?  (Essentially, what you said). 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> then I’m going to nix it as a special power. Might retain a vestige of it for flavor text though. Now what would cover the ability to read the mind as described earlier? It doesn’t have to be much, just enough to know the surface thoughts and such – detect thoughts may be sufficient. I’ll just add the “Eye thinks of it before you do” as flavor text if I want to keep it at all.



I think that detect thoughts should be sufficient.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, reprinting the stats from “Die Vecna Die” – see if there is anything here we can add to what we have already:



It gives us an idea on weight, as the Hand is about as tall as a dwarf, while the Eye is more human-sized.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 27, 2004)

For the Hand, how about:

Grip of Ruin (Su): The Hand can hold objects (of Small or smaller size?) in its third hand, if it chooses not to use its slam attack or grapple an opponent with it in that round. The Hand drains the hardness from an object at a rate of (1d4?) per round, until the object eventually crumbles into dust. Magic items can resist this drain on a (DC X Will save?).

Strength Damage (Su): The Hand can choose to deal 1d6 points of Strength damage on a successful grapple check.  If a victim reaches Strength 0 in this way, it dies.

“Magical Senses” (Su): The Hand possesses no visual or auditory organs and has immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, sonic effects, and other attack forms that rely on sight or hearing.  Instead, the hand has blindsight out to 60 feet (and an ability to detect noise?) and cannot be flanked or caught flat-footed.  These senses can be suppressed for 1 round by a dispel magic spell.


And for the Eye, how about:

Spell-Like Abilities: The following abilities are always active on the Eye’s person, as the spells (caster level Xth); clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect magic, detect thoughts, find traps, and true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the Eye can reactivate them as a free action.

“Tracking Sense” (Su): The eye has the ability to sense an intelligent creature’s aura over long distances, if it has seen the creature directly or through scrying.  The Eye can detect most creatures up to 1 mile away.  Creatures with spellcasting abilities are detectable at a range in miles equal to their total caster levels (or, like the text, a number or miles equal to the highest level of spells they can cast?).

To track a creature’s aura, the Eye must succeed on a DC X (knowledge arcana? Gather information? Search?) check.  If it fails the check, the Eye can retry after (1 hour) of meditation.  If successful, the Eye can sense the creature as if by the locate creature spell.

This tracking ability can be blocked if the creature is within X feet of a large concentration of magical energy, such as an artifact, a stockpile of magic items, or at least (three?) other spellcasters.  In such an instance, the Eye must succeed on a DC X Will save or lose the ability to track the creature’s aura until it leaves the source of magical energy. Running water does not block this ability.


Does this need to be explored?:
“it cannot be surprised, as long as it is awake.”


----------



## Shade (Aug 31, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Grip of Ruin (Su): The Hand can hold objects (of Small or smaller size?) in its third hand, if it chooses not to use its slam attack or grapple an opponent with it in that round. The Hand drains the hardness from an object at a rate of (1d4?) per round, until the object eventually crumbles into dust. Magic items can resist this drain on a (DC X Will save?).



I'd leave out "of Small or smaller size", since weapons don't really follow the same sizes as creatures anymore.  If you want it to hold more in this hand than a normal Medium creature could in a normal hand, maybe state that it can hold anything in one hand that a Large (or even Huge?) creature can hold in one hand.  1d4 sounds good.  Shouldn't it be a Fort save?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Strength Damage (Su): The Hand can choose to deal 1d6 points of Strength damage on a successful grapple check. If a victim reaches Strength 0 in this way, it dies.



Lookin' good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “Magical Senses” (Su): The Hand possesses no visual or auditory organs and has immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, sonic effects, and other attack forms that rely on sight or hearing. Instead, the hand has blindsight out to 60 feet (and an ability to detect noise?) and cannot be flanked or caught flat-footed. These senses can be suppressed for 1 round by a dispel magic spell.



I can't think of any precedent for "detecting noise" outside of blindsight, which can use echolation.

Just as an aside, does it have olfactory organs?  If not, it would be immune to stench-based attacks as well.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Spell-Like Abilities: The following abilities are always active on the Eye’s person, as the spells (caster level Xth); clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect magic, detect thoughts, find traps, and true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the Eye can reactivate them as a free action.



Looks good.  Caster level 12th?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “Tracking Sense” (Su): The eye has the ability to sense an intelligent creature’s aura over long distances, if it has seen the creature directly or through scrying. The Eye can detect most creatures up to 1 mile away. Creatures with spellcasting abilities are detectable at a range in miles equal to their total caster levels (or, like the text, a number or miles equal to the highest level of spells they can cast?).
> 
> To track a creature’s aura, the Eye must succeed on a DC X (knowledge arcana? Gather information? Search?) check. If it fails the check, the Eye can retry after (1 hour) of meditation. If successful, the Eye can sense the creature as if by the locate creature spell.
> 
> This tracking ability can be blocked if the creature is within X feet of a large concentration of magical energy, such as an artifact, a stockpile of magic items, or at least (three?) other spellcasters. In such an instance, the Eye must succeed on a DC X Will save or lose the ability to track the creature’s aura until it leaves the source of magical energy. Running water does not block this ability.



Caster level is probably a good idea, as it helps with those situations where a creature has a spell-like ability that doesn't mimic a specific spell.  I'd go with the Search check.  Go with the standard 30 feet for the "large concentration of magical energy"?




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Does this need to be explored?:
> “it cannot be surprised, as long as it is awake.”



Alertness and/or Improved Init as bonus feats, racial bonus to Spot and Listen, or even an insight bonus to initiative, Spot, and/or Listen could cover this as well.


----------



## qstor (Oct 7, 2004)

*bump*

wanted to keep this alive  On the WOTC Greyhawk boards someone was asking for the Hand and Eye.

Mike


----------



## BOZ (Oct 7, 2004)

people are asking about these guys?    well, don't worry, they will be the first things i start working on again when i'm back on.  they've been sitting here since what... may?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 10, 2004)

OK, I’m going to make it my #1 priority for conversions to finish these two guys.  They’ve been sitting here since about May, and have gone through two special projects of mine, and really need to be put to rest.  

Since working on both at the same time has gotten cumbersome, I’m splitting them up.  We’re going to finish the Hand first, since he is close to being finished, and is a far simpler creature (in more than one sense of the word).

Below, I’m posting what stats I have for him so far.  I’m going to be working on the flavor text today.  Who knows, I may even finish him today and be able to move on to the Eye.  Feel free to post critiques, questions, and suggestions – as always. 

*The Hand*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 13d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+20
Attack: Slam +20 melee (1d10+7) or longsword +20 melee (1d8+7/19-20) or dagger +15 ranged (1d4+7)
Full Attack: Slam +20 melee (1d10+7) and 2 longswords +15 melee (1d8+3/19-20) or 2 daggers +11 ranged (1d4+7/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: constrict 1d10+10?, grip of ruin, improved grab, strength damage
Special Qualities: senses
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str 24, Dex (15+), Con (18+), Int 7, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 16
Feats: 5 Two-Weapon Fighting

Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or cult (X)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---


The Hand is 4 ½ feet tall, and weighs (170-210?) pounds.

The Hand has no mouth and so cannot speak.  It does think, however, and can be communicated with telepathically.

COMBAT

Constrict (Ex): The Hand deals automatic slam damage with a successful grapple check.

Grip of Ruin (Su): The Hand can hold in its third hand any object that a Large creature can hold in one hand, if it does not grapple an opponent or use its slam attack with that hand in that round. The Hand drains the hardness from an object at a rate of 1d4 points per round, until the object eventually crumbles into dust when it reaches hardness 0. Magic items can resist this drain on a DC X Fortitude save.  The save DC is X-based.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the Hand must hit with its slam attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can either constrict or deal strength damage or both.

Strength Damage (Su): The Hand can choose to deal 1d6 points of Strength damage on a successful grapple check. If a victim reaches Strength 0 in this way, it dies.

“Magical Senses” (Su): The Hand possesses no visual, auditory, or olfactory organs and has immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, sonic effects, scent-based attacks, and other attack forms that rely on a sense of sight, hearing, or smell.  Instead, the hand has blindsight out to 60 feet (and an ability to detect noise?) and cannot be flanked (or caught flat-footed?).  These senses can be suppressed for 1 round by a dispel magic spell.

Feats: In combination with its natural abilities, the Hand’s Two-Weapon Fighting feat allows it to attack with two longswords at no penalty.

Originally found in module WGA4 – Vecna Lives! (1990, David “Zeb” Cook) and the module Die Vecna Die! (2000).


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 10, 2004)

I realize that it doesn't mean much, but why are these guys Lawful evil? Officially, Vecna is Neutral Evil, I believe. There might of course be a reason I'm missing...


----------



## BOZ (Nov 10, 2004)

could it be that Vecna was a different alignment in previous editions?  i really don't know.  regardless, LE makes sense if for no other reason than to make them extra obedient - with NE you have too much of that "free will" element going on.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 10, 2004)

here is the flavor text i came up with.  if anyone out there has either of the original modules and would care to add anything to this or the stat block, please feel free to post.  

_This squat, heavily muscled humanoid is about the same size and shape as a dwarf.  However, in place of a humanoid head, a giant-sized hand sticks out of the neck. The creature wears a pleated kilt, decorated with colorful swirls and jagged stripes.  It wears a thick leather belt loaded with daggers, and carries two longswords on its back. It appears to be wearing nothing else._

The Hand, or Hand Servitor as it is sometimes known, is the second lieutenant in the cult of Vecna, answering only to the Eye.  This being was created by modifying a human using powerful spells to transform it.  It is unknown if there are more than one of these creatures, but none have ever been seen.

The Hand, as with its “brother” the Eye, was created by wizard-priest servants of Vecna, in a time when the mighty arch-lich was only a demigod striving for greater deific status.  The process used to create the Hand was incredibly complex, and torturously painful for the subject.  The agony of this procedure was so intense that it peeled away its essence of humanity, leaving a barely intelligent, bestial monster. Much like the Eye, the Hand is marked by odd behaviors.  Its fawning submissiveness or gently stroking the hand of a friend can suddenly turn to a blind rage without warning, with the Hand flinging himself against walls.  Even when totally calm, the Hand is never quite still, and trembles and twitches uncontrollably.

Since the Hand lacks the ability to communicate vocally, the priests of Vecna must use telepathy to talk with it. Though the Hand is technically below the cult’s high priests in rank, it resents this station.  It inspires fear in the cult’s followers, as it carries out the decrees of the high priests.  This monster is fearsome for its brute physical qualities, but does not inspire the icy terror of a more sinister being like the Eye.

When appearing in public, the Hand wears a blue-green robe with a large hood, and grips an embossed leather mask with its third hand to hide its “face.”  It can carry up to twelve daggers on its belt.  

COMBAT
The Hand exists to be the muscle of the cult of Vecna, and is well-suited for fighting. The Hand can fight with two weapons in its normal hands, and crush creatures and objects with its strange third appendage.  It normally begins combat by hurling daggers at its foes, and then closes in for melee to fight with its swords.


----------



## Shade (Nov 11, 2004)

Was 3.5 released yet when we started on this guy?  

The descriptive text looks great!

We'll need to figure out ability scores soon.  I'd suggest Dex 19 so we can give him both Improved and Greater TWF.

Base saves are:  Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +8.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 11, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Was 3.5 released yet when we started on this guy?




yes.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The descriptive text looks great!




thanks!  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We'll need to figure out ability scores soon.




Yes.    that’s the main thing left to do.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd suggest Dex 19 so we can give him both Improved and Greater TWF.




 do we need to do that?  I thought that this line took care of all that:
Feats: In combination with its natural abilities, the Hand’s Two-Weapon Fighting feat allows it to attack with two longswords at no penalty.

posting in homebrews…


----------



## Shade (Nov 11, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> do we need to do that? I thought that this line took care of all that:
> Feats: In combination with its natural abilities, the Hand’s Two-Weapon Fighting feat allows it to attack with two longswords at no penalty.



We'll need 'em if we want iterative attacks with the off-hand (2 for ITWF, 3 for GTWF).   The Feats line simply removes the -4 penalty for fighting with a longsword in each hand.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 11, 2004)

OK well, in that case let's keep it.    let's get some ideas started here, particularly for ability scores:

*The Hand*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 13d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+20
Attack: Slam +20 melee (1d10+7) or longsword +20 melee (1d8+7/19-20) or dagger +15 ranged (1d4+7)
Full Attack: Slam +20 melee (1d10+7) and 2 longswords +15 melee (1d8+3/19-20) or 2 daggers +11 ranged (1d4+7/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: constrict 1d10+10?, grip of ruin, improved grab, strength damage
Special Qualities: senses
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str 24, Dex (19+), Con (18+), Int 7, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 16 (Disguise, Intimidate)
Feats: 5 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2004)

How about Str 24, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11?

I'd recommed Quick Draw and Power Attack to round out the feats.

Assuming Quick Draw, Dex 19, and the additional TWF feats, the attack lines change as follows:

Attack: Slam +20 melee (1d10+7) or longsword +20 melee (1d8+7/19-20) or dagger +17 ranged (1d4+7)
Full Attack: Slam +20 melee (1d10+7) and 2 longswords +20/+15/+10 melee (1d8+3/19-20) or 3 daggers +17 ranged (1d4+7/19-20)


----------



## BOZ (Nov 12, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about Str 24, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11?




hmm… on the one hand (pun not intended), I wouldn’t want the Cha to be too high, but on the other hand (pun still not intended), it can’t really Intimidate or Disguise itself with a low Cha score.  Otherwise, everything you said sounded OK.

can he really throw 3 daggers at the same attack value?

constrict damage should be 1d10+10?

The Hand is 4 ½ feet tall, and weighs (170-210?) pounds.

Grip of Ruin: should the save be Strength or Constitution-based?  Or even Cha?

“Magical Senses” (Su): The Hand possesses no visual, auditory, or olfactory organs and has immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, sonic effects, scent-based attacks, and other attack forms that rely on a sense of sight, hearing, or smell.  Instead, the hand has blindsight out to 60 feet (and an ability to detect noise?) and cannot be flanked (or caught flat-footed?).  These senses can be suppressed for 1 round by a dispel magic spell.


----------



## Shade (Nov 13, 2004)

Cha could go lower.

D'oh!   Dagger routine should be +17/+12/+7.

Wouldn't constrict be the same as slam damage (1d10+7)?

200 lbs. sounds good for weight.  I'd imagine that big hand-head is heavy.

Grip of Ruin:  I like Strength-based for it.

“Magical Senses”:  I like "can't be caught flat-footed", but I'd ditch magical hearing and just leave it at blindsight, or add tremorsense as well.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 13, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Cha could go lower.




it could, but in the end I don’t think I want it to.  given the need for Intimidate and Disguise that I feel this fellow needs, I need to decide whether to leave the Cha at 11 or make it higher.  I could just go by ranks on those skills though.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> D'oh! Dagger routine should be +17/+12/+7.




I thought something was amiss.    so “or dagger +17/+12/+7 ranged (1d4+7/19-20)” should cover throwing 3 daggers?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Wouldn't constrict be the same as slam damage (1d10+7)?




this is a debate we’ve had going for awhile now, and I’m still not sure what to think.  Oh, Mr. SRD…?  The idea is, does a constrict attack deal have a damage bonus of Str or Str 1 ½?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> 200 lbs. sounds good for weight. I'd imagine that big hand-head is heavy.
> 
> Grip of Ruin: I like Strength-based for it.




that’s all good.  And yes, Str-based will make it harder to resist. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> “Magical Senses”: I like "can't be caught flat-footed", but I'd ditch magical hearing and just leave it at blindsight, or add tremorsense as well.




any idea for a good name?


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 13, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> this is a debate we’ve had going for awhile now, and I’m still not sure what to think. Oh, Mr. SRD…? The idea is, does a constrict attack deal have a damage bonus of Str or Str 1 ½?



 Apparently, both is possible. Couatls, for example use Str 1 1/2, behirs use Str.


----------



## Shade (Nov 14, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> it could, but in the end I don’t think I want it to. given the need for Intimidate and Disguise that I feel this fellow needs, I need to decide whether to leave the Cha at 11 or make it higher. I could just go by ranks on those skills though.



Cool. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I thought something was amiss.  so “or dagger +17/+12/+7 ranged (1d4+7/19-20)” should cover throwing 3 daggers?



Yep. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> this is a debate we’ve had going for awhile now, and I’m still not sure what to think. Oh, Mr. SRD…? The idea is, does a constrict attack deal have a damage bonus of Str or Str 1 ½?





			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Apparently, both is possible. Couatls, for example use Str 1 1/2, behirs use Str.



Your SRD cannot help you now.   Based on Knight Otu's findings, it's up to us.   I'd go with Str and 1/2 for this fella, since he only constricts with one appendage, and its a big 'un.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that’s all good. And yes, Str-based will make it harder to resist.



My thoughts exactly.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> any idea for a good name?



Hmmm....how about:  Eldritch Awareness, Supernatural Senses, or Arcane Discernment?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 14, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Your SRD cannot help you now. Based on Knight Otu's findings, it's up to us. I'd go with Str and 1/2 for this fella, since he only constricts with one appendage, and its a big 'un.




do I need to call eric's grandma in here?   

but yes, that idea makes me vewwy vewwy happy - +10 damage bonus it is! 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm....how about_: Eldritch Awareness, Supernatural Senses, or Arcane Discernment?




arcane awareness?   

has anyone looked through either of the modules enough to get a good idea of who we might find this guy with? 
Organization: Solitary or cult (X) 

Skills: (16 ranks) Disguise +X, Intimidate +X 
Other skills he could benefit from: 
Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Swim, Tumble


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> do I need to call eric's grandma in here?



Gee, I hope not!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> arcane awareness?



Works for me.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> has anyone looked through either of the modules enough to get a good idea of who we might find this guy with?
> Organization: Solitary or cult (X)



Nope.  I don't have 'em.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills: (16 ranks) Disguise +X, Intimidate +X
> Other skills he could benefit from:
> Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Swim, Tumble



How about:  Bluff 5 (granting +2 synergy bonus to both Disguise and Intimidate), Disguise 5, Intimidate 5, Tumble 1 (since it can't be used untrained).   The Hand's good Str and Dex should provide nice modifiers to the other skills you listed.   One thing is for certain:  I'd love to see this guy swim!


----------



## BOZ (Nov 15, 2004)

He could probably swim just fine.    I don’t think that third hand should encumber him, in fact it would make him more aerodynamic if used properly.  And he probably doesn’t need to breath either, unless he breathes through his pores or something.  

OK, I’ll have to study the modules a bit to see what kind of an entourage to give him, if any.

CR… 10-12?


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2004)

He couldn't possibliy look any goofier in the water than a tojanida!  

CR 11.   He's about on par with a hezrou or hamatula, which are both CR 11.  What he lacks in resistances and spell-likes, he makes up for in sheer number of attacks and strength damage.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 17, 2004)

OK, i have looked through the modules to gain a bit of insight on the Eye and the Hand.  a bit of SPOILERS below (though not much) if you were ever going to play in them.

Vecna Lives!

on p 18-19, these guys appear for the first time.  it is noted here that the Eye carries a _chime of interruption_.  in this encounter, they travel with 6 4th-level fighters calling themselves "The Blood of Vecna", a priest of vecna (C9/W5), 4 4th-level rogues called the "Fingers of Vecna", and an NPC they are working with. it also revealed here that the Hand is controlled by command words from the _Book of Pain_, which cause "agonizing magical tortures" for the Hand, and which a priest can use in case the Hand gets out of control.

p 74 - it is revealed here that the cult is ruled by a high priestess called the Heart of Vecna (C16/W 5), and they are her lueitenants. for reference, her stats are on page 80.


Die Vecna Die!

in this module, they play a much lesser role.  in fact, they were just about replaced by two golems with even stranger appearances than theirs.  they appear at the end of the module in the city of Sigil, and were actually resurrected by Vecna due to an odd fondness for them.  here they are not with the cult of Vecna anymore - they are serving the god directly by presiding over services and training new followers of the god.  he likes them so much, he automatically resurrects them any time a PC kills one. 

there is really no further information that this module can add, as far as i can tell.


so, what have we learned...

how about this:

Organization: Solitary or cult (Hand and Eye, plus 1-3 clerics of level 8-12, plus 5-10 fighters of level 2-6, plus 2-7 rogues of level 3-6)

or something like that?


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> in this module, they play a much lesser role. in fact, they were just about replaced by two golems with even stranger appearances than theirs



Cool!  Are these guys statted out so we can convert 'em.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how about this:
> 
> Organization: Solitary or cult (Hand and Eye, plus 1-3 clerics of level 8-12, plus 5-10 fighters of level 2-6, plus 2-7 rogues of level 3-6)
> 
> or something like that?



I likee.   

The standard seems to be "plus 2-7 rogues of 3rd-6th level" rather than "of level 3-6", just to nitpick.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 17, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Cool! Are these guys statted out so we can convert 'em.




oh yes, they are, but only in abbreviated stat block form.  For other information we’ll have to pull text from the module.  If you want to do them next that’s fine, but there’s a waiting list of unfinished conversions I’d like to get to first.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I likee.
> 
> The standard seems to be "plus 2-7 rogues of 3rd-6th level" rather than "of level 3-6", just to nitpick.




That’s fine, nitpick away… as long as it is productive and not just whiny.  

OK, updating Handy-man in homebrews.  Looks good to me.  Looks good to you?


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> oh yes, they are, but only in abbreviated stat block form. For other information we’ll have to pull text from the module. If you want to do them next that’s fine, but there’s a waiting list of unfinished conversions I’d like to get to first.



I'm fine either now or later.  It might be easier now since the module is fresh in our minds.  Besides, golems are almost always fast conversions. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, updating Handy-man in homebrews. Looks good to me. Looks good to you?



It sure does.  That was one smooth conversion.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 17, 2004)

smooth, yeah, EVENTUALLY.  

let me get some stuff together for Mr. Eye.  maybe later today, but just as likely not until tomorrow.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 17, 2004)

EYE, captain!

The more I think about it, _detect thoughts_ is just wrong, wrong, wrong.  There is no indication whatsoever that it can read people’s minds.  What it does have is a sense of the immediately future.  It knows what someone is going to say, not because it can read their mind, but because it can read the future.  If a person says “attack this thing from the back!” then the Eye knows what it is going to do ahead of time.  If the person says no such thing, then the Eye would still know that someone was going to attack, because it would “see” the attacker before he attacked.  A lot of the combat application of this power is in the insight bonus to AC and the uncanny dodge power.  I could see giving it an insight attack bonus as well.  As for the knowing what someone is going to say, if there is no appropriate 3.5 ability for reading the future then we should just make that flavor text and stop agonizing over it.    so, detect thoughts is officially out.

These spell-likes were being worked on before, but we kind of left off with them:

Spell-Like Abilities: The following abilities are always active on the Eye’s person, as the spells (caster level 12th); clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect magic, find traps, and true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the Eye can reactivate them as a free action.

Also, since “it cannot be surprised, as long as it is awake”, is there a way to make it immune to surprise, or would making immune to being caught flat-footed like the Hand keep it active during a surprise round?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Alertness and/or Improved Init as bonus feats, racial bonus to Spot and Listen, or even an insight bonus to initiative, Spot, and/or Listen could cover this as well.




Should we give it low-light vision and darkvision?  All-around vision?  Blindsight/sense?  An additional Search & Spot bonus?  I can’t see giving it bonuses to listen checks, actually.  

There is really only one big issue left to resolve, and that is the psychic tracking sense power.  Here is the original description, as a reminder:



			
				Vecna Lives! said:
			
		

> The Eye's primary purpose is as a psychic tracker for the priests of Vecna. Once the Eye has seen an intelligent being – either directly or through scrying - it can sense that creature's aura over large distances.  The range depends on the abilities of the player character.  Those with no spellcasting ability can be detected only within a one-mile radius.  Those with any spellcasting abilities are detectable at a radius in mules equal to their spell level. Thus a 12th level wizard (who is able to cast spells up to 6th level) is detectable within a six-mile radius.
> 
> The Eye's tracking ability is not infallible. Large concentrations of magical energy can shield a target's aura. Artifacts, stockpiles of magic items, or even areas with a high preponderance of spellcasters all have this effect. For example, simply entering the Guild of Wizardry is enough to block the Eye's tracking sense. In doubtful cases, the Eye must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell to retain the "scent."




Here is what we had so far:

“Tracking Sense” (Su): The eye has the ability to sense an intelligent creature’s aura over long distances, if it has seen the creature directly or through scrying.  The Eye can detect most creatures up to 1 mile away.  Creatures with spellcasting abilities are detectable at a range in miles equal to their total caster levels (or, like the text, a number or miles equal to the highest level of spells they can cast?).

To track a creature’s aura, the Eye must succeed on a DC X (knowledge arcana? Gather information? Search?) check.  If it fails the check, the Eye can retry after (1 hour) of meditation.  If successful, the Eye can sense the creature as if by the locate creature spell.

This tracking ability can be blocked if the creature is within X feet of a large concentration of magical energy, such as an artifact, a stockpile of magic items, or at least (three?) other spellcasters.  In such an instance, the Eye must succeed on a DC X Will save or lose the ability to track the creature’s aura until it leaves the source of magical energy. Running water does not block this ability.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Caster level is probably a good idea, as it helps with those situations where a creature has a spell-like ability that doesn't mimic a specific spell. I'd go with the Search check. Go with the standard 30 feet for the "large concentration of magical energy"?


----------



## Shade (Nov 18, 2004)

Hmm....some time away from this may have been just what we needed.

First, lets borrow this from the epic psuedonatural creature template:

"Constant Insight (Su): The creature makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target."

Scaling that down to non-epic proportions, and rolling it in with other abilities, I come up with this:

Future Insight (Su):  The Eye can "see" into the future at all times.  This grants it a +X insight bonus to AC.  The Eye makes all its attacks with a +5 (?) insight bonus, and is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.  The Eye retains its Dexterity bonus to AC even if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.  Additionally, the Eye has a +X insight bonus to initiative and always acts in a surprise round.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 18, 2004)

Hmm, I like it, but I would remove the “see into the future” part.  Maybe, “The Eye has a precognitive insight that grants it a +X insight bonus to AC.”  Were we going to make the bonuses akin to its Wisdom modifier?

And we can remove uncanny dodge if we are folding it into this insight power.

Thoughts on the spell-like abilities, vision issues, and tracking sense?


----------



## Shade (Nov 18, 2004)

Agreed.  I like the precognitive insight better.

Equal to Wisdom modifier...I don't remember.

Uncanny dodge...yes, remove as it is rolled into other ability now.

Definitely low-light vision and darkvision.  I'd also like to see blindsight.  Since it is just "one big eye", all-around vision probably doesn't fit.   +4 racial bonus to Spot and Search?

The spell-likes we had look fine to me.   Were we missing some?

Perhaps for the psychic tracking, we could incorporate the faint/moderate/strong/overwhelming bit from detect magic (like a cleric's aura for the purposes of detect chaos/good/evil/law)?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 19, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Equal to Wisdom modifier...I don't remember.




well, we can resolve that later.  Let?s leave it open for the moment.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Definitely low-light vision and darkvision. I'd also like to see blindsight. Since it is just "one big eye", all-around vision probably doesn't fit. +4 racial bonus to Spot and Search?




hmm, probably right about the all-around vision.  Blindsight 60 ft like handyman? I figure, since this guy?s sense of vision is clearly his strongest, why not go crazy with vision abilities.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The spell-likes we had look fine to me. Were we missing some?




not that I know of.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps for the psychic tracking, we could incorporate the faint/moderate/strong/overwhelming bit from detect magic (like a cleric's aura for the purposes of detect chaos/good/evil/law)?




how so?  Maybe I?m just sleepy.


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> well, we can resolve that later. Let?s leave it open for the moment.



Okely-dokely.  




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, probably right about the all-around vision. Blindsight 60 ft like handyman? I figure, since this guy?s sense of vision is clearly his strongest, why not go crazy with vision abilities.



Yeah, why not go crazy!  60 ft. blindsight sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> not that I know of.



Then I guess they're done. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how so? Maybe I?m just sleepy.



On second thought, forget I said that.  It would just complicate the ability.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 19, 2004)

Maybe you were on to something, if you can explain it better I might catch on.  

So this is looking good now then?  How about the DC for the Search check, duration for meditation and such?

“Tracking Sense” (Su): The eye has the ability to sense an intelligent creature’s aura over long distances, if it has seen the creature directly or through scrying. The Eye can detect most creatures up to 1 mile away. Creatures with spellcasting abilities are detectable at a range in miles equal to their total caster levels.

To track a creature’s aura, the Eye must succeed on a DC X Search check. If it fails the check, the Eye can retry after (1 hour) of meditation. If successful, the Eye can sense the creature as if by the locate creature spell.

This tracking ability can be blocked if the creature is within 30 feet of a large concentration of magical energy, such as an artifact, a stockpile of magic items, or at least (three?) other spellcasters. In such an instance, the Eye must succeed on a DC X Will save or lose the ability to track the creature’s aura until it leaves the source of magical energy. Running water does not block this ability.



			
				Vecna Lives! said:
			
		

> The Eye's primary purpose is as a psychic tracker for the priests of Vecna. Once the Eye has seen an intelligent being – either directly or through scrying - it can sense that creature's aura over large distances. The range depends on the abilities of the player character. Those with no spellcasting ability can be detected only within a one-mile radius. Those with any spellcasting abilities are detectable at a radius in mules equal to their spell level. Thus a 12th level wizard (who is able to cast spells up to 6th level) is detectable within a six-mile radius.
> 
> The Eye's tracking ability is not infallible. Large concentrations of magical energy can shield a target's aura. Artifacts, stockpiles of magic items, or even areas with a high preponderance of spellcasters all have this effect. For example, simply entering the Guild of Wizardry is enough to block the Eye's tracking sense. In doubtful cases, the Eye must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell to retain the "scent."


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2004)

Well, essentially, a cleric has an aura based on his level that determines his relative strength when viewed with a detect chaos/evil/good/law spell:

Cleric class levels/Aura Strength
1 / Faint
2-4 / Moderate
5-10 / Strong
11 or higher / Overwhelming

I thought that instead of caster level to determine range, we could use the aura (except in this case, any spellcaster class level).   But then I realized that it is more complicated that simply multiplying caster level x 1 mile, as you suggested.


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2004)

Also, I just found this on the orangeseer from a recent Dragon.  It could be useful for the insight.

Future Sight (Su): An orangeseer constantly sees several possible futures simultaneous with its view of the present. This ability grants the orangeseer a dodge bonus to Armor Class and an insight bonus on Initiative rolls equal to its Intelligence modifier (usually +8).


----------



## BOZ (Nov 19, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> How about the DC for the Search check, duration for meditation and such?




and # of spellcasters (or total levels?) it would take to block the sense?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Future Sight (Su): An orangeseer constantly sees several possible futures simultaneous with its view of the present. This ability grants the orangeseer a dodge bonus to Armor Class and an insight bonus on Initiative rolls equal to its Intelligence modifier (usually +8).




heh, orange-seer?    so, they use Int mod, whereas insight bonuses are usually Wis mod.


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> and # of spellcasters (or total levels?) it would take to block the sense?



DC 15 (like tracking on firm ground outdoors)?

Instead of number of casters, how about total caster levels block it?   For example, say 5 10th-level wizards are escorting a caster level 20th artifact.  That would equal 70 caster levels.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> heh, orange-seer?  so, they use Int mod, whereas insight bonuses are usually Wis mod.



Yep.  The orangeseer is from Dune.  It is in the monthly "Novel Approach" article.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Instead of number of casters, how about total caster levels block it? For example, say 5 10th-level wizards are escorting a caster level 20th artifact. That would equal 70 caster levels.




not a half bad idea.  how many levels do you think it should take to block it, 50?  How well did I word this below, does it sound comprehendible?

This tracking ability can be blocked if the creature is within 30 feet of a large concentration of magical energy.  If the total caster levels of spellcasters, creatures with spell-like abilities, magic items, and active spells in the area is at least X levels, the Eye must succeed on a DC X Will save or lose the ability to track the creature’s aura until the creature leaves the source of magical energy. Running water does not block this ability.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 20, 2004)

also, what would be a good Will save to keep the "scent"?  good ol' 15?  


and here, i wrote up some flavor text (took the Hand's and modified it):

_This tall, slender humanoid has a gigantic eyeball in the place of a humanoid head, which glares menacingly.  It carries a greatsword and wears long green robes, trimmed with red, and golden eyes embroidered along the hems._

The Eye, or Eye Servitor as it is sometimes known, is the first lieutenant in the cult of Vecna, answering only to the leader of the cult.  This cult created this being by modifying a human, using powerful spells to bring about the transformation.  It is unknown if there are more than one of these creatures, but none have ever been seen.

The Eye, as with its ?brother? the Hand, was created by wizard-priest servants of Vecna, in a time when the mighty arch-lich was only a demigod striving for greater deific status.  The process used to create the Eye was incredibly complex, and torturously painful for the subject.  The agony of this procedure was so intense that it peeled away its essence of humanity, leaving a cold, emotionless monster. It displays several unusual behaviors as a result of its transformation.  It finishes other beings? sentences, knowing what they are going to say already.  It surrounds itself with mirrors, and is fascinated by reflected images.  The Eye is sadistic and cruel, and relieves its own pain and frustrations by visiting them upon others.

According to the cult priests, the Eye serves as Vecna's senses on the Material plane. It serves the Cult?s leader loyally, and is feared by the lesser members of the Cult of Vecna. 

When appearing in public, the Eye wears a gray cloak with a deep hood over its robes, to conceal its head.

The Eye is stands 7 feet tall, and weighs (150?) pounds.

The Eye has no mouth and so cannot speak, but can communicate telepathically with whomever it wishes. 

COMBAT
The Eye was created to gain information, not to fight, but it is not without combat ability.  It normally fights with a greatsword.  It keeps two daggers hidden, strapped hilt down to each arm; when it cannot use its sword, it crosses its arms and whips out these daggers to fight two-handed.

This odd creature cannot be surprised and is superhumanly alert, with a limited precognitive sense.  The Eye is lightning quick and astoundingly graceful. Its most fearsome attack is its death gaze, from which it draws sustenance.  The Eye?s primary purpose is to serve as a psychic tracker for the priests of Vecna.


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2004)

50 levels sounds good.

The writeup makes sense.

I like the flavor text.

I'm not sure I understand this question:



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> also, what would be a good Will save to keep the "scent"? good ol' 15?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

my question pertains to this:

"If the total caster levels ... are at least 50 levels, the Eye must succeed on a DC X Will save or lose the ability to track the creature?s aura until the creature leaves the source of magical energy."

some ideas for names...

Psychic Tracking/Tracker
Sense Aura/Aura Sense
Track Mind/Mentality

or some sort of mixing of terms


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

So why not just say "DC 15"?    Or, rather than Will save, make it a DC 15 Wisdom check.

I like Psychic Tracker.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

Rockin.  

Abilities: Str X, Dex 19, Con X, Int 15, Wis X, Cha X

I don’t think the Str needs to be all that exceptional – no higher than say 16.  For Con, how about 17?  For Wis and Cha, we need to determine which one grants the insight bonus, and the death gaze DC is Cha-based.


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

Str, I could see going as low as 13.

Con 17 sounds good.

Let's stick with Wisdom for insight, and give it a Wis of 22.  Cool?

Cha 17-19?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

Cool, all of that works for me.  Posting in homebrews, with the Hand.

Hmm… very hurtful.  

Skills: 60 (disguise, gather information, intimidate, knowledge - racial bonus to Spot & Search)
Feats: 5 Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting (Lightning Reflexes, Persuasive?)


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

Skill Ranks:  Bluff 5, Disguise 10, Gather Information 10, Intimidate 5, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (local) 5, Knowledge (religion) 10, Search 5, Sense Motive 5, Spot 0.  (This should provide lots of tasty synergy bonuses.)
Feats: Investigator, Persuasive, Quick Draw, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting

Also, you might want to change this "it crosses its arms and whips out these daggers to fight two-handed" it crosses its arms and whips out these daggers to fight with one in each hand" to avoid confusion with wielding a weapon two-handed.  (I know, it can't be done with a dagger, but it could still confuse some poor flustered DM).


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

CR… at least 12, maybe as much as 14.

The Eye is stands 7 feet tall, and weighs (150?) pounds.  (I decided that the stat block line was misleading, and the text did say it was 7 feet tall.)


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

CR 13 seems good.  It's about on par with a glabrezu.

150 pounds sounds fine.

We should add that if the Eye is exposed to a spell that incites sadness (such as crushing despair), its massive eye weeps a volume equivalent to a _create water_ spell.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

SURE we can... now, it's time for your medication...  

updating... looking done YET?  after 6 months are we done YET?    LOL


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

OK, I've medicated and feel much better now.

Shouldn't the 2 daggers be at +18 each (TWF reduces penalty to -2).

Also, should we add a ranged dagger attack?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> OK, I've medicated and feel much better now.




you’re getting sleepy, very sleepy…



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Shouldn't the 2 daggers be at +18 each (TWF reduces penalty to -2).




my bad.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Also, should we add a ranged dagger attack?




I don’t know.  if it only carries two, I’m not sure that it would want to throw them.  The Hand carries a dozen, so it can afford to throw them at leisure.  I’d say not likely.


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

OK.  It does have its death gaze at range, after all.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2004)

...exactly.   

updating one more time...


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2004)

I think Mr. Eye is ready for prime time.


----------



## qstor (Dec 1, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Jaleeda Bird
> Scarlet Brotherhood
> Tlokasazotz (Olman Bat-Vampire)
> Thousandtooth
> ...





I was checking out some of the monsters I think are still undone..

The Lerara I believe, are converted in a LG module and the text is probably copywrited by WOTC but I can summarize it here. I'm supposed to run the module next week.

I did a conversion with Paul Lobby of the Onwall Triad of the Tralls races and Paul did the Su-Monkey but the article wasn't published by Erik Mona in the LGJ, its sitting on this desk or inbox somewhere!

Mike


----------



## qstor (Dec 6, 2004)

The Lerera were converted in the module as Suel humans with the bonus language of Suel. 

They have exceptional low light vision and take Con damage every round exposed to sunlight except if they have the Daylight Adaption feat from the FRCS. Otherwise they're humans.

Mike


----------



## iwpoe (Jan 24, 2005)

I apoligise if I missed it but where can I find the complete stablock for the 3.5 conversion of the hand and eye its important for my upcoming adventure plans.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 24, 2005)

normally you'd be able to find them here: http://www.enworld.org/cc/

unfortunately, with the forum server change, that page is currently down.  patience - it will return sometime this week, i am assured.


----------



## iwpoe (Jan 24, 2005)

Oh ok thanks - hey is there anyway one can think to convert the prelude to "Vecna Lives" without bending all known 3.5 edition rules? Since one can nolonger simply "Strangle and break the necks" of 6 characters during a time stop


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## BOZ (Jan 24, 2005)

geez, i don't know, i doubt it... epic level characters like the circle of 8 should stand a much better chance against a god like vecna in 3.5 rules.  i don't know what kind of instakill effects there are that would actually affect mordenkainen and bigby, and i wouldn't be surprised if there aren't any.


----------



## iwpoe (Jan 25, 2005)

*Dont forget*

Mordenkeinan isnt among those that are killed in the prelude 
those that are killed are as follows:
Tenser - 20th lvl Mage - Str 10 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 17 Wis 11 Cha 18 HP 60
Bigby - 18th lvl Mage - Str 9 Dex 17 Con 15 Int 17 Wis 15 Cha 12 HP 46
Otto - 14th Mage/5th Preist (Dual Currently Mage) - Str 16 Dex 7 Con 15 Int 17 Wis 15 Cha 16 HP 45
Drawmij - 16th lvl Mage - Str 7 Dex 16 Con 15 Int 18 Wis 17 Cha 9 HP 44
Nystul - 16th lvl Mage - Str 7 Dex 10 Con 15 Int 18 Wis 17 Cha 15 HP 45
Rary - 23th lvl Mage - Str 7 Dex 11 Con 12 Int 19 Wis 19 Cha 16 HP 50
Otiluke - 16th lvl Mage - Str 5 Dex 17 Con 10 Int 17 Wis 8 Cha 11 HP 39
Jallarzi - 14th lvl Mage - Str 10 Dex 18 Con 9 Int 18 Wis 17 Cha 17 HP 38

They are killed by this sucker

Vecna/Halmadar
20th lvl Fighter
Statistics "Not Applicable"
THACO: 1
AC: 0

Vecna/Halmadar is powered up like crazy by the Hand and Eye of Vecna. By the way why did Wizards feal it nessessary to gimp an artifact like the Hand and Eye of Vecna when by definition artifats are ment to be powerful and unbalencing. I mean the origional powers included spell resistance Time Stop and lots of other things. The Eye had true seeing forsight Visons and al sorts of other things. The combined powers of the 3.0/3.5 version are so off the oritional model one must wonder if the Wizards staff just thru darts at powers and selected them that way. An artifact should not be a balenced thing I dont know why they felt it nessessary to do so. I've decided to thro the DMG description of the artifact away but even going to the old powers I am unable to kill 8 Wizards of this ammount of power with 2 spells and 3 to 6 round of combat. Thoughts?


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## BOZ (Jan 25, 2005)

iwpoe said:
			
		

> By the way why did Wizards feal it nessessary to gimp an artifact like the Hand and Eye of Vecna when by definition artifats are ment to be powerful and unbalencing. I mean the origional powers included spell resistance Time Stop and lots of other things. The Eye had true seeing forsight Visons and al sorts of other things. The combined powers of the 3.0/3.5 version are so off the oritional model one must wonder if the Wizards staff just thru darts at powers and selected them that way. An artifact should not be a balenced thing I dont know why they felt it nessessary to do so. I've decided to thro the DMG description of the artifact away but even going to the old powers I am unable to kill 8 Wizards of this ammount of power with 2 spells and 3 to 6 round of combat. Thoughts?




i couldn't agree more, truly.  i'd recommend redoing the artifacts if you want to use them in your home campaign.


----------



## Shade (Jan 25, 2005)

Until the CC is back up, you can find 'em here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=66577&page=4&pp=20


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## BOZ (Jan 25, 2005)

there you go.


----------



## qstor (Mar 23, 2005)

thanks Boz.

Mike


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## BOZ (Mar 23, 2005)

no problem, and of course the CC has been back up for awhile.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2005)

The following critters no longer need converting:

WGA3 - Flames of the Falcon
Hook Horror - appears in MM2
Derro (Dwarf) - appears in MM
Meenlock - appears in MM2

* WGR3 - Rary the Traitor
Desert Centaur - appears in Dungeon #103
Manscorpion - appears in Monsters of Faerun as Stinger

Dragon #270, Dragon's Bestiary "Minions of Iuz" 
Blackroot Marauder - appears in Dragon Compendium, vol 1.

Dungeon #70, Kingdom of the Ghouls
Shadow (True) Ghoul - appears in Dungeon #129


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

correct - plus whatever appears in Dragon #339.


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## Mortis (Dec 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> correct - plus whatever appears in Dragon #339.



Just for the record.


			
				Pure Puppet said:
			
		

> From Greyhawk, we have the Animus Template, the Blindheim - tiny frog-men that worship Slaads - the Greyhawk Dragon, with a sample Young Adult stat block, the Suel Lich - an incorporeal undead that possess living bodies, and the xvart.



Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Desert Centaur - appears in Dungeon #103




that was a greyhawk-themed article wasn't it?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Manscorpion - appears in Monsters of Faerun as Stinger




i'll have to compare the stats - the greyhawk manscorpion may be rather different from the tlincalli/stinger/manscorpion from the Realms.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that was a greyhawk-themed article wasn't it?




Yep.  Living Greyhawk Journal portion of the mag.


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

Manotaur

Climate/Terrain: Desolate rocky forests
Frequency:  Very rare
Organization:  Solitary
Activity Cycle: Day
Diet: Carnivore
Intelligence:  Average (8-10)
Treasure: K, M (E)
Alignment:  Chaotic evil
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class:  4
Movement 24
Hit Dice: 13
THAC0: 17
# Attacks: 3
Dmg: 1d6/1d6/1d8
SA: Charge
SD: Nil
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: L (8' tall, 12' long)
Morale: Champion (15-16)
XP Value: 5,000 XP

A manotaur somewhat resembles a centaur.  Unlike a minotaur, which has the body of a man and the head of a bull, a manotaur has the body of a bull and the upper torso of a man.  The head sports a pair of horns that a manotaur continually sharpens for use in combat.  A great mane of hair runs down its neck, trailing across its shoulders.  Coloration varies, but most manotaurs are brown, gray, or black.  Manotaurs measure seven to eight feet tall and ten to 12 feet in length.  The human torso is broad and powerful.  Manotaurs are strict carnivores; their mouths are wide and filled with sharpened teeth and short fangs.  A manotaur usually speaks its own language, as well as minotaur, ogre, and hill giant.

Because of its superior senses of smell and hearing, a manotaur is surprised only on a 1 in 10 chnce.   Since manotaurs run with absolute silence through their woodland lairs, opponent surprise rolls are at a -3 penalty.  A manotaur will typically charge if it surprises an opponent.

A manotaur attacks using its two front hooves and its razor sharp horns.  Anytime in combat that a manotaur can run 20 feet or more in a straight line, it can charge.  When charging, a manotaur attacks only with its horns but the damage is tripled (3d8).  In addition, man-sized or smaller targets are slammed back ten feet by the force of the charge and might be knocked down.

Manotaurs are intelligent opponents that rely upon brute force when battling smaller creatures and guile against well-armed foes.  A common ploy by manotaurs is to surprise the opponent, deliver a single charge attack, then disappear into the forest.  A manotaur repeats this tactic time and again, slowly wearing down the foe before closing for the kill.

Habitat/Society:  Manotaurs are evil by nature, hating all good things.  Their lairs are usually overgrown, desolate forests, in which they gallop to and fro, beating out a series of twisted interlocking paths with their hooves.  These paths are known only to the manotaur who lives there: Any creature attempting to follow the paths in a manotaur forest is 75% likely to become disoriented and unable to find its way back out of the forest.  A person trapped in a manotaur forest has only a 10% chance per day of finding his way out without magical aid.  At seemingly random points, the forest's paths straighten out for as much as 30 feet at a time.  This is where the manotaur will wait, timing his charge to hit just as the victim rounds the bend and steps onto the straightened path.

The personalities of manotaurs vary widely; some guard their forest jealously, killing all who dare enter.  Others fill teh woodland with wicked creatures, such as giant spiders, orcs, and even an occasional ogre or two.  They use these creatures to spread terror through the forest and as spies in the outside world. 

A manotaur colt is born with 2 Hit Dice.  The colt remains with its father until it reaches 5 Hit Dice.  At that point it is driven out of the forest.  A manotaur colt that reenters its father's forest is immediately slain.

Ecology:  Manotaurs hunt sylvan creatures (brownies, sprites, elves, and the like).  They hate unicorns and can sense them anywhere in their forests.  The only time two manotaurs will cooperate is to track down and destroy a unicorn.

Manotaurs sometimes use treasure to lure creatures into their maze of paths, placing a gold piece here and a silver there.  Humans and demhumans who carefully map may be able to pick up a quick silver piece or two, but even a short journey into the forest can lead to disaster.  The bulk of a manotaur's treasure is hidden either beneath a great stone or in a tree hollow near the center of the forest.

The origins of the first manotaur are a great mystery; possibly, it was the offspring of a minotaur and a human female.

Manotaurs live 300 years or more.

From MCA3 and Greyhawk Ruins.


----------



## freyar (Jun 30, 2007)

Wow, Shade, you're really going wild with starting new conversion threads...   

May I suggest a lot of Spot and Listen for this one and maybe Alertness, too?


----------



## Shade (Jul 2, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Wow, Shade, you're really going wild with starting new conversion threads...




Yeah, I've gone a bit overboard.  I've done so for several reasons:  I actually have some free time, the CC hasn't been updated much in awhile, and I had a bunch of creature's original descriptions already typed up so I wanted to get them on here before I had a system crash or managed to lose them.    



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> May I suggest a lot of Spot and Listen for this one and maybe Alertness, too?




You may.  Duly noted.


----------



## freyar (Jul 3, 2007)

Ok, then, seems like mostly a melee masher.  It should probably get Spirited Charge as a bonus feat, with the gore attack counting as a lance when charging.  I guess Ride-by Attack, as well, and Awesome Blow.  That seems like a lot of bonus feats, but I guess that's the characteristic attack of these things.  Or should they just be normal feats, given that Manotaurs already have a lot of HD?


----------



## Shade (Jul 3, 2007)

Beginning a stat block...

Manotaur
Large Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 13d8+x  (x hp)
Initiative: +x
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: x (–1 size, +x Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+x
Attack: Gore +x melee (x+x) or weapon?
Full Attack: Gore +x melee (x+x) and 2 hooves +x melee (x+x) or weapon?
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Powerful charge
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent
Saves: Fort +x, Ref +x, Will +x
Abilities: Str x, Dex x, Con x, Int 8-10, Wis x, Cha x
Skills: Intimidate +x, Listen +x, Move Silently +x, Search +x, Spot +x
Feats: 5 (Alertness?)
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization:: x
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: x
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +x

Powerful Charge (Ex): A minotaur typically begins a battle by charging at an opponent, lowering its head to bring its mighty horns into play. In addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge, this allows the beast to make a single gore attack with a +9 attack bonus that deals 4d6+6 points of damage.

Some things to consider from the two most similar creatures...

Minotaur Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8
Minotaur Feats: Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Track
Minotaur Natural Armor: +5
Centaur Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11
Centaur Feats: Dodge, Weapon Focus (hoof)
Centaur Natural Armor: +3

Skills: Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 3, 2007)

did you check Echohawk's file?  for some reason i think there may have been more than one version of a manotaur...


----------



## Shade (Jul 3, 2007)

I believe Greyhawk Ruins was the only other source listed, and the MCA3 pulled it from this source, IIRC.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Some things to consider from the two most similar creatures...
> 
> Minotaur Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8
> Minotaur Feats: Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Track
> ...



I'd favour minotaur for physical and centaur for mental abilities, but given as it has over double the HD of either of those maybe we could up the stats a bit to give something along the lines of:

Str 22, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 12
Natural Armor: +6

Feats: (5 of) Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, Run, Track, Weapon Focus (gore)

Personally I would remove Improved Bull Rush - despite the name  and Track.

The problem with Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge is that they require ranks in Ride and the Mounted Combat feat (unless given as bonus feats of course) so it would probably be better to give the manotuar a special ability that duplicates the effects unless you feel that Shade's Powerful Charge is sufficent.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Echohawk (Jul 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I believe Greyhawk Ruins was the only other source listed, and the MCA3 pulled it from this source, IIRC.



That's correct, although there is also the little known "manotor" in _Conan: Unchained!_ (CB1).


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> That's correct, although there is also the little known "manotor" in _Conan: Unchained!_ (CB1).




Interesting...how similar is it?


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I'd favour minotaur for physical and centaur for mental abilities, but given as it has over double the HD of either of those maybe we could up the stats a bit to give something along the lines of:
> 
> Str 22, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 12
> Natural Armor: +6




Just for the heck of it, taking a bull (bison stats) and minotaur and using the tauric creature template would result in the following:

Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8
Natural Armor: +5

Since the manotaur was intended to be smarter than the minotaur, and seems physically more powerful than the two combined, the higher ability scores you suggested make sense.

Let's revisit feats after we hammer out its attacks and special abilities.


----------



## freyar (Jul 5, 2007)

I like the higher ability scores, as well.

Powerful charge looks pretty good, though we need to add that it knocks the victim down and back.


----------



## Echohawk (Jul 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Interesting...how similar is it?



Now that I compare them, they are the same creature; exactly the same AC, HD, Attacks, Special Attacks, etc. The version in CB1 has very little description text, but two thirds of what it doesn't have is repeated in the MCA3, with only minor changes. And the other third has been rewritten, but with largely the same meaning. I would scan it for you, but a colony of "Ants, Small Annoying" seems to have taken up residence inside my scanner sometime earlier this week, with dire consequences


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

I added to Homebrews based on the ability scores Mortis recommended.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Powerful charge looks pretty good, though we need to add that it knocks the victim down and back.




Hmmm...it sounds like Powerful Charge, Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun all rolled into one.  I'll look through other creatures and see if one has a similar ability.


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> Now that I compare them, they are the same creature; exactly the same AC, HD, Attacks, Special Attacks, etc. The version in CB1 has very little description text, but two thirds of what it doesn't have is repeated in the MCA3, with only minor changes. And the other third has been rewritten, but with largely the same meaning. I would scan it for you, but a colony of "Ants, Small Annoying" seems to have taken up residence inside my scanner sometime earlier this week, with dire consequences




No problem.  So basically, it has very little different worth noting, eh?


----------



## Echohawk (Jul 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> No problem.  So basically, it has very little different worth noting, eh?



No .


----------



## Mortis (Jul 6, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Powerful charge looks pretty good, though we need to add that it knocks the victim down and back.



Wouldn't it make more sense to knock a victim down and then trample it rather than knocking it back?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2007)

I think this text from the Driving Attack feat in the PHBII is fairly close to the original intent:

If you use a full-round action to make a single melee attack with any piercing weapon and succeed in hitting, you can initiate a special bull rush attempt against the target. The bull rush uses your total bonus on damage rolls in place of your Strength modifier. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity with this bull rush, and you cannot move forward with your opponent.

If you succeed in pushing an opponent back 10 feet or more, you can reduce the distance you push him by 10 feet. In return, your foe falls prone in the square when he ends his movement. Note that by reducing the distance you push your opponent, you can have him fall prone in his current space.


----------



## freyar (Jul 7, 2007)

Something like Driving Attack sounds pretty reasonable, sure.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think this text from the Driving Attack feat in the PHBII is fairly close to the original intent:



There was bound to be something in one book or another 

Driving Attack looks like it does the job, so something similar as a special ability then?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

How's this?

Devastating Charge (Ex): A manotaur typically begins a battle by charging at an opponent, lowering its head to bring its mighty horns into play. In addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge, this allows the beast to make a single gore attack with a +x attack bonus that deals X+X points of damage.

Additionally, if the manotaur succeeds on its attack, it can initiate a special bull rush attempt against the target. The bull rush uses its total bonus on damage rolls in place of its Strength modifier. The manotaur does not provoke an attack of opportunity with this bull rush, and cannot move forward with its opponent.

If the manotaur succeeds in pushing an opponent back 10 feet or more, it can reduce the distance pushed by 10 feet. In return, the foe falls prone in the square when he ends his movement. Note that by reducing the distance it pushes its opponent, the manotaur can have him fall prone in his current space.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> Devastating Charge (Ex): A manotaur typically begins a battle by charging at an opponent, lowering its head to bring its mighty horns into play. In addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge, this allows the beast to make a single gore attack with a +x attack bonus that deals X+X points of damage.
> 
> ...



Looks good - it's beginning to remind me of a Tactical feat. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Looks good - it's beginning to remind me of a Tactical feat.




Indeed!


----------



## freyar (Jul 9, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Looks good - it's beginning to remind me of a Tactical feat.




Do you mean overpowered compared to a core feat?  But I agree that it looks good for these guys.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2007)

> A manotaur usually speaks its own language, as well as minotaur, ogre, and hill giant.




Since all the other creatures mentioned speak Giant, shall we stick with that as its sole language?



> Because of its superior senses of smell and hearing, a manotaur is surprised only on a 1 in 10 chnce.   Since manotaurs run with absolute silence through their woodland lairs, opponent surprise rolls are at a -3 penalty.  A manotaur will typically charge if it surprises an opponent.




Alertness was suggested earlier.   Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks.  Shall we retain that?   Perhaps a bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks in forest terrain?



> Manotaurs are intelligent opponents that rely upon brute force when battling smaller creatures and guile against well-armed foes.  A common ploy by manotaurs is to surprise the opponent, deliver a single charge attack, then disappear into the forest.  A manotaur repeats this tactic time and again, slowly wearing down the foe before closing for the kill.




Power Attack and Spring Attack?



> Habitat/Society:  Manotaurs are evil by nature, hating all good things.  Their lairs are usually overgrown, desolate forests, in which they gallop to and fro, beating out a series of twisted interlocking paths with their hooves.  These paths are known only to the manotaur who lives there: Any creature attempting to follow the paths in a manotaur forest is 75% likely to become disoriented and unable to find its way back out of the forest.  A person trapped in a manotaur forest has only a 10% chance per day of finding his way out without magical aid.  At seemingly random points, the forest's paths straighten out for as much as 30 feet at a time.  This is where the manotaur will wait, timing his charge to hit just as the victim rounds the bend and steps onto the straightened path.




Hmmm...some variation of the maze spell?

Should we use this (or modify it)?

Natural Cunning (Ex): Although minotaurs are not especially intelligent, they possess innate cunning and logical ability. This gives them immunity to maze spells, prevents them from ever becoming lost, and enables them to track enemies. Further, they are never caught flat-footed.



> The personalities of manotaurs vary widely; some guard their forest jealously, killing all who dare enter.  Others fill the woodland with wicked creatures, such as giant spiders, orcs, and even an occasional ogre or two.  They use these creatures to spread terror through the forest and as spies in the outside world.
> 
> A manotaur colt is born with 2 Hit Dice.  The colt remains with its father until it reaches 5 Hit Dice.  At that point it is driven out of the forest.  A manotaur colt that reenters its father's forest is immediately slain.
> 
> Ecology:  Manotaurs hunt sylvan creatures (brownies, sprites, elves, and the like).  They hate unicorns and can sense them anywhere in their forests.  The only time two manotaurs will cooperate is to track down and destroy a unicorn.




Eh?

Organization:  Solitary, pair (manotaur and noncombatant colt), unicorn-hunting party (2), wickedness (manotaur plus 1-2 ogres, X Large monstrous spiders, and X orcs)


----------



## freyar (Jul 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since all the other creatures mentioned speak Giant, shall we stick with that as its sole language?




Sure.



> Alertness was suggested earlier.   Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks.  Shall we retain that?   Perhaps a bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks in forest terrain?




Let's drop Alertness and go with the racial bonus like the minotaur.  The Hide and Move Silently bonuses are ok too.



> Power Attack and Spring Attack?




Makes sense.



> Hmmm...some variation of the maze spell?
> 
> Should we use this (or modify it)?
> 
> Natural Cunning (Ex): Although minotaurs are not especially intelligent, they possess innate cunning and logical ability. This gives them immunity to maze spells, prevents them from ever becoming lost, and enables them to track enemies. Further, they are never caught flat-footed.




Essentially giving it maze as an SLA with some restriction to the area near its lair might work.  I think Natural Cunning then makes a lot of sense, especially since manotaurs are definitely related to minotaurs.



> Organization:  Solitary, pair (manotaur and noncombatant colt), unicorn-hunting party (2), wickedness (manotaur plus 1-2 ogres, X Large monstrous spiders, and X orcs)




Looks pretty good.  Maybe 1d4 spiders and 1d6 orcs?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since all the other creatures mentioned speak Giant, shall we stick with that as its sole language?



Yes


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Alertness was suggested earlier. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks. Shall we retain that? Perhaps a bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks in forest terrain?



No problems with any of that.



			
				source said:
			
		

> A common ploy by manotaurs is to surprise the opponent, deliver a single *charge* attack, then disappear into the forest.





			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Power Attack and Spring Attack?



There's one problem with employing Spring Attack with a charge - you can't 
Spring Attack is part of the attack action whereas a charge is special full round action so you can't combine the two AFAIK. 

We would also have to give the manotaur Dodge and Mobility to qualify for Spring Attack unless we grant it as a bonus feat.

IMO Ride-by Attack works better as it works as part of the charge action. We would still have to make it a bonus feat as the manotaur will not meet the prereq's (ride 1 rank, mounted combat).



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Essentially giving it maze as an SLA with some restriction to the area near its lair might work. I think Natural Cunning then makes a lot of sense, especially since manotaurs are definitely related to minotaurs.



Works for me.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Looks pretty good. Maybe 1d4 spiders and 1d6 orcs?



OK with me but i'd up the orcs to 2d6.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 11, 2007)

Here's the text from the maze spell:



> You banish the subject into an extradimensional labyrinth of force planes. Each round on its turn, it may attempt a DC 20 Intelligence check to escape the labyrinth as a full-round action. If the subject doesn’t escape, the maze disappears after 10 minutes, forcing the subject to leave.
> 
> On escaping or leaving the maze, the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast. If this location is filled with a solid object, the subject appears in the nearest open space. Spells and abilities that move a creature within a plane, such as teleport and dimension door, do not help a creature escape a maze spell, although a plane shift spell allows it to exit to whatever plane is designated in that spell. Minotaurs are not affected by this spell.




I think we should rewrite it so that rather than going to an extradimensional place, it occurs within the actual forest.   In that case, perhaps teleport and dim door are acceptable?

We may be able to modify this ability to allow the manotaur to use the Ride-By Attack feat...

Cavalry Charge (Ex): An armanite is considered to be mounted for determining the effects of charge attacks with lances. An armanite gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls when charging with a lance and does not take a penalty to Armor Class as a result of its charge.


----------



## freyar (Jul 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think we should rewrite it so that rather than going to an extradimensional place, it occurs within the actual forest.   In that case, perhaps teleport and dim door are acceptable?




Sounds good.



> We may be able to modify this ability to allow the manotaur to use the Ride-By Attack feat...
> 
> Cavalry Charge (Ex): An armanite is considered to be mounted for determining the effects of charge attacks with lances. An armanite gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls when charging with a lance and does not take a penalty to Armor Class as a result of its charge.




Why not just add that a manotaur is considered mounted when making its devastating charge (along these lines)?  Or something like 

Naturally Mounted (Ex): A manotaur is considered to have X ranks in the Ride skill and to have the Mounted Combat feat (and others?) for the purposes of determining feat prerequisites.


----------



## Shade (Jul 11, 2007)

So...



> Habitat/Society: Manotaurs are evil by nature, hating all good things. Their lairs are usually overgrown, desolate forests, in which they gallop to and fro, beating out a series of twisted interlocking paths with their hooves. These paths are known only to the manotaur who lives there: Any creature attempting to follow the paths in a manotaur forest is 75% likely to become disoriented and unable to find its way back out of the forest. A person trapped in a manotaur forest has only a 10% chance per day of finding his way out without magical aid. At seemingly random points, the forest's paths straighten out for as much as 30 feet at a time. This is where the manotaur will wait, timing his charge to hit just as the victim rounds the bend and steps onto the straightened path.




Forest Maze (Su?):  A manotaur can create a natural labyrinth in its home forest.  To do so, the manotaur must spend at least a month pounding out these paths with their hooves.  This maze may cover up to one square mile.  Any creature entering this natural maze becomes hopelessly lost.  Each hour(?), it may attempt a DC 20 Intelligence check to escape the labyrinth as a full-round action. 

On second thought, what if we modeled this after the Getting Lost rules in the DMG?



> Difficult Terrain: Any character in forest, moor, hill, or mountain terrain may become lost if he or she moves away from a trail, road, stream, or other obvious path or track. Forests are especially dangerous because they obscure far-off landmarks and make it hard to see the sun or stars.
> 
> Chance to Get Lost: If conditions exist that make getting lost a possibility, the character leading the way must succeed on a Survival check or become lost. The difficulty of this check varies based on the terrain, the visibility conditions, and whether or not the character has a map of the area being traveled through. Refer to the table below and use the highest DC that applies.




Forest is DC 15.

Perhaps the natural maze created by the manotaur has a DC of 25?


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Why not just add that a manotaur is considered mounted when making its devastating charge (along these lines)?  Or something like
> 
> Naturally Mounted (Ex): A manotaur is considered to have X ranks in the Ride skill and to have the Mounted Combat feat (and others?) for the purposes of determining feat prerequisites.




Combining the two...

Naturally Mounted (Ex): A manotaur is considered to be mounted when this is favorable to the manotaur, such as for the purposes of meeting feat prerequisites and determining the effects of feats and special abilities.  It is considered to possess 10 ranks in the Ride skill and to have the Mounted Combat feat for the purposes of determining feat prerequisites.

How's that?


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2007)

The new naturally mounted looks good.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> On second thought, what if we modeled this after the Getting Lost rules in the DMG?




I like that idea.


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## Shade (Jul 12, 2007)

Take two...

Forest Maze (Su?): A manotaur can create a natural labyrinth in its home forest. To do so, the manotaur must spend at least a month pounding out these paths with their hooves. This maze may cover up to one square mile. Any creature entering this natural maze must succeed on a DC 25 Survival check or become lost (see Getting Lost in the <i>Dungeon Master's Guide</i>).


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## freyar (Jul 12, 2007)

This looks fine to me, but I'd make it (Ex) given the more mundane nature of it.  I'd still give it the "immunity to mazes" or whatever the relevant ability of the minotaur is called.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2007)

For feats, how about Alertness, Multiattack, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Track?

For skills, how about Hide 7, Intimidate 5, Listen 4, Move Silently 3, Search 4, Spot 4, Survival 5?

+8 bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks in forest terrain?


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## Mortis (Jul 13, 2007)

That all looks good to me.

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2007)

Looks pretty good, but I'd prefer more Listen and Spot if we can get them, since the original text says it's not surprised very much.  Or else the same racial bonus as the minotaur.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looks pretty good, but I'd prefer more Listen and Spot if we can get them, since the original text says it's not surprised very much.  Or else the same racial bonus as the minotaur.




It's got 'em.    

Updated.   Suggestions for gore and hoof damage?   Any suggestions for a sample weapon in the stat block (greataxe like minotaur, perhaps)?


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## Mortis (Jul 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Suggestions for gore and hoof damage?



Slightly more than a centaur or minotaur so...
1d10 gore
1d8 hooves?



> Sample weapon in the stat block (greataxe like minotaur, perhaps)?



I would suggest lance, but that would make the gore pretty much redundant. As they rely on brute force for some attacks, greataxe would fit the bill.

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2007)

That all sounds fine to me.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

Updated.

We need to determine the damage for the powerful charge.

The triceratops does double gore damage and double its Str modifier.
The rhinoceros does double gore damage and triple its Str modifier (but gore is its sole natural attack, so it would normally do Str and 1/2, which when double, is the same as triple its Str modifier).
A bulezau does double gore damage and its Str modifier.
The minotaur somehow goes from 1d8+4 to 4d6+6.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2007)

Well, we could give it triple damage, as in the original creature (3d10+whatever*STR bonus, if we go with Mortis's suggestion).  But at the very least, it should be as much as the regular minotaur.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

3d10 + Str and a half most closely mimics the minotaur.  Shall we go with that?


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2007)

Sure, let's do that.


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## Mortis (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> 3d10 + Str and a half most closely mimics the minotaur.  Shall we go with that?



Fine with me

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

Great.

Thoughts on CR?

Standard treasure like minotaur?


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## Mortis (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Great.
> 
> Thoughts on CR?



8



> Standard treasure like minotaur?



Yes

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

Updated and added flavor text.  How's it looking?


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## Mortis (Jul 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated and added flavor text.  How's it looking?



Needs a weight, how about 2,500 lbs  - I can see them weighing a bit more than the standard centaur.

and 

Level Adjustment: +2

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2007)

I'm fine with the weight, but LA needs to be higher.

Using Savage Species method:
+2 for Natural Armor Bonus higher than +5
+1 for unbalance ability scores
+1 for three or more racial bonuses on skill checks
+1 for scent
-------------
+5 total

I could see dropping to +4.


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2007)

Looks pretty good.  Devastating charge needs the +x gore attack filled in.

Boy, I can see why ogre mages are considered over-CRed after looking at this thing!


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## Mortis (Jul 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm fine with the weight, but LA needs to be higher.
> 
> Using Savage Species method:
> +2 for Natural Armor Bonus higher than +5
> ...



Yeah I didn't have Savage Species with me. I wouldn't go to +5 though, +4 seems a reasonable compromise.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looks pretty good.  Devastating charge needs the +x gore attack filled in.




Good catch.  Will fix.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Boy, I can see why ogre mages are considered over-CRed after looking at this thing!


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Yeah I didn't have Savage Species with me. I wouldn't go to +5 though, +4 seems a reasonable compromise.




+4 it is.  Favored class barbarian (like minotaur) or ranger?


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## Mortis (Jul 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Favored class barbarian (like minotaur) or ranger?



Quite frankly I can see either choice being a good one - I suppose that mentally they are still similar to minotaurs so I slightly favour barbarian. 

I wouldn't want to meet a raging manotaur barbarian though. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Quite frankly I can see either choice being a good one - I suppose that mentally they are still similar to minotaurs so I slightly favour barbarian.
> 
> I wouldn't want to meet a raging manotaur barbarian though.




Nor would I!

Is this one done?


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## Mortis (Jul 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Is this one done?



Yup 

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2007)

On to the next one...


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

*Gingwatzim, Tim*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ethereal or Prime Material Plane
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Feeds directly upon victim's strength
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Only hurt by spells and magical weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (2' diam.)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 975

In free form the tim are blue, glowing spheres of sparkling energy. Their bound animate forms are limited to such things as frogs, spiders, fish, insects, snakes, or plants with unusual senses or abilities. They are usually bound to entryways or else physically restricted to an area, since they are incapable of understanding even simply commands. Their inanimate forms are restricted to the simplest of items, below even a +1 weapon or shield. Such items are limited to a single use per day since the gingwatzim powering it needs that long to recover.

Originally appeared in Greyhawk Ruins (1990).


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Here's the second-worst gingwatzim's 3e stats:

Pakim
Small Elemental (Air)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (13 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft., fly 40 ft. (perfect)
AC: 15 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural)
Attacks: Touch +2 melee
Damage: 1d2 temporary Strength
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Alternate forms, elemental traits, DR 5/+1, telepathy
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 5
Skills: Hide +7, Listen +2, Move Silently +3, Spot +2
Feats: Flyby Attack
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: See text

Pakim gingwatzims in their natural form are green air spheres with a diameter of 4 feet. Pakims have poor reasoning skills and can only understand simple commands. Particularly docile, they often don't bother to resist their master's control. They can be bound into the form of an animal or plant of up to Small size. In object form, they can be +1 weapons with no magical properties.

Alternate Forms (Su): Conjured gingwatzims are assigned two additional forms by the magic of the spell that calls them. The animate and object forms are chosen and fixed when the gingwatzim is called and cannot be changed unless the creature is returned to the Ethereal Plane. The gingwatzim can assume one of its other forms or return to its natural form as a free action once per round. Often (especially in the case of less intelligent gingwatzim) their controller orders them to remain in one particular form.

In the form of another creature, the gingwatzim retains its own ability scores and other abilities, and its deflection bonus becomes a natural armor bonus. It gains none of the assumed form's ability scores or abilities in any way, and retains the immunities of its elemental type. Armor class and skill bonuses based on size (such as Hide) use the new form's size instead of the gingwatzim's normal size.

In object form, a gingwatzim cannot move itself or drain Strength using its touch attack ability, and it loses its deflection bonus. When it takes the form of a weapon, a gingwatzim has an enhancement bonus equal to the bonus that would bypass its own damage reduction. For example, a pakim gingwatzim, which has damage reduction 5/+1, that takes the form of a longsword is effectively a +1 longsword.

Telepathy (Su): Gingwatzims can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet as long as that creature has a language. The low intelligence of some gingwatzims hampers their ability to communicate anything but the most basic concepts.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Strange things.  Well, I think we need to revisit the pakim first, since the weapon overcoming its own DR doesn't work right in 3.5.  Otherwise, we mostly copy from the pakim?


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## Echohawk (Jan 23, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Originally appeared in Greyhawk Ruins (1990).



Minor correction: the tim gingwatzim last appeared in Greyhawk Ruins, but originally appeared in _Lost Island of Castanamir_ (C3). I know that's not relevant for the conversion, but...


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## Echohawk (Jan 23, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Strange things.  Well, I think we need to revisit the pakim first, since the weapon overcoming its own DR doesn't work right in 3.5.  Otherwise, we mostly copy from the pakim?




If it helps, the Planewalker publication _Denizens of the Transitive Planes_ updated the pakim to 3.5 as follows: "Pakim CR1; Init +1; BAB +1; Grap -2; Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SQ Remove damage reduction."


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> Minor correction: the tim gingwatzim last appeared in Greyhawk Ruins, but originally appeared in _Lost Island of Castanamir_ (C3). I know that's not relevant for the conversion, but...




Thanks, it is relevant as we usually try to list the original source in the conversion entries.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Looking at the other gingwatzim, it looks like Con remains 14 across the board.  Str changes as normal between size categories, so downsizing a pakim to Tiny gives Str 6.  Dex is 11 for all but the pakim, which is 13, despite the others ranging from Medium to Large.  So we could either stick with 13, or increase it to 15.  The tim was listed as non-intelligent (0), but it seems like it is more like an animal, so maybe Int 1?   Wis should probably be 10, and Cha should be less than 5 (that of the pakim).

So how about:  Str 6, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 3?

Natural armor increases by 1 for each increase in "hierarchy", so subracting one from the pakim's natural armor gives the tim a +2 natural armor bonus.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Sounds fine to me overall.  I'm going to need to look at the other ones to get a feel for this.  What do you think about the bonus, since the 3.0 DRX/+1 for the pakim doesn't work anymore?


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Sounds fine to me overall.  I'm going to need to look at the other ones to get a feel for this.  What do you think about the bonus, since the 3.0 DRX/+1 for the pakim doesn't work anymore?




I'd say they can only be bound to mundane (or possibly masterwork) weapons, and as such, don't have DR or overcome DR.   Sound OK?

Started 'em up in Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Looks good so far, but I have a couple questions.

Should we take out the "example" of DR5/+1 from the alternate form description?  Then we can put in that tims can only be bound to masterwork weapons.

Should the touch attack be ability damage rather than energy drain?


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

Yes and yes.

Attempted rewrite...

Alternate Forms (Su): Conjured gingwatzims are assigned two additional forms by the magic of the spell that calls them. The animate and object forms are chosen and fixed when the gingwatzim is called and cannot be changed unless the creature is returned to the Ethereal Plane. The gingwatzim can assume one of its other forms or return to its natural form as a free action once per round.  Due to the tim's low intellect, its controller usually orders it to remain in one particular form.

In the form of another creature, the gingwatzim retains its own ability scores and other abilities, and its deflection bonus becomes a natural armor bonus. It gains none of the assumed form's ability scores or abilities in any way, and retains the immunities of its elemental type. Armor class and skill bonuses based on size (such as Hide) use the new form's size instead of the gingwatzim's normal size.

In object form, a gingwatzim cannot move itself or deal Strength damage using its touch attack ability, and it loses its deflection bonus. When it takes the form of a weapon, a tim may only take the form of a masterwork or mundane weapon, and cannot consist of special materials such as mithral or cold iron.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Looks good.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

It appears the other gingwatzim apply their Dex modifier to their touch attacks, despite lacking Weapon Finesse or the incorpeal subtype. I'd recommend we just give it Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

For its single feat, Flyby Attack like the rest?

Skills: 5
Listen 2, Move Silently 3, Spot 2?

CR 1/2?  The pakim is CR 1 and better.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Sounds good all around except you've listed 7 skill ranks, I think.  I don't have much of a feel for these, I'm afraid. Maybe drop listen or spot?


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

Oops.  Fixed it.

Updated.

What's left?


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Guess it's done!


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2008)

*Thousandtooth*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: any
FREQUENCY: very rare
ORGANIZATION: solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: any
DIET: omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 + up to 8
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6/1d3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Petrification, poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (4' diameter)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 4000

The thousand tooth is a monstrosity made by mutating a medusa. It looks like an oversized human head with large sharp teeth and solid gray eyes. Rather than a body, it has a roundish lump of flesh behind the head from which sprout 8+1d4 thick reptilian limbs, each ending in the head of a venomous snake. It moves by using three or more of its lower reptilian limbs as primitive legs. Some also have a pair of spindly arms growing from the sides of their fleshy bodies.

Combat: The thousand tooth retains the medusa's ability to petrify flesh, although its power is much weaker than a medusa's. Any creature that comes within 30' of the thousand tooth must make a saving throw vs. petrification at +2 or slowly change into stone. On the first round after the attack, the victim is slowed (as per the spell) but gains a +1 bonus to his armor class due to the stony consistency of his skin. On the third round, the victim is completely petrified. At close range, the thousandtooth attacks with its humanhead bite and up to eight bites from its snake-limbs. Anyone struck by a snake-head must save vs. poison or die (type F poison). The thousand tooth must make a saving throw vs. petrification +2 if it sees its reflection.

Habitat/Society: A thousandtooth is a solitary predator, claiming a few square miles as its turf. As it cannot outrun its prey, it must wait for creatures to approach it, so it prefers terrain with places to hide. It reproduces by budding - once a year, one of the snaky limbs drops off and crawls away as an independent creature; after a year of living like a snake it begins to consume massive amounts of food to prepare for its metamorphosis. The snake changes into an adult thousandtooth after a week of hibernation; it can use all its powers and is particularly hungry after the change.

Ecology: The thousand tooth is a destructive predator, attacking anything in its territory that it sees as a threat or competition. This results in a number of statues in its territory as well as an increase in the number of predators in neighboring regions.

Originally appeared in The Scarlet Brotherhood (1999)


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

Aberration?

Here are the relevant medusa abilities for inspiration:

Petrifying Gaze (Su): Turn to stone permanently, 30 feet, Fortitude DC 15 negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 14, initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 2d6 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based.

And medusa abilities: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 15.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

Yeah, I think this sounds like an aberration.  Maybe they are the result of aboleth experiments. 

Type F poison for the wyvern translates to 2d6 Con, 2d6 Con damage, and Con seems maybe more appropriate.  I'm not sure how tough these should be, though.  Maybe 2d6 and then 1d6 Con?

Don't know what to do about petrification.  Do you still want the slow effect, then petrification?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

How's this?

Slow Petrifying Gaze (Su): 30 feet, Fortitude DC X negates.  On a failed save, the victim is slowed (as the spell) and gains a +1 enhancement bonus to its natural armor as its skin begins to harden.  Two rounds later, if the effect has not been nullified, the victim is turned to stone permanently.  The effect can be reversed by a stone to flesh effect at any time.  If used within the first two rounds, no saving throw is required to survive the transformation.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 18, 2008)

The spell call of stone, from Players Handbook II, has a gradual petrification effect.  Here's the details:

This spell slowly transforms a creature into an inanimate stone statue.  The target must make a Fortitude save each round for the duration of spell* at the start of its turn or take a cumulative 10-foot penalty to speed and a -2 penalty to Dexterity.  If the target's speed drops to 0 feet, it cannot move.  If the target fails four or more saves, it permanently transforms into a statue as if affected by flesh to stone.  Any effect or spell that reverses flesh to stone also cures this condition.

*The duration is 1 round/2 levels.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2008)

Interesting.  I think the speed and Dex loss makes sense as well.

Updating...

Slow Petrifying Gaze (Su): 30 feet, Fortitude DC X negates. On a failed save, the victim must continue to save each round thereafter and is slowed (as the spell) and takes a cumulative 10-foot penalty to speed and a -2 penalty to Dexterity, but gains a +1 enhancement bonus to its natural armor as its skin begins to harden.  A successful save after the initial save does not negate the effect, but prevents any further penalties and eventual petrification.  If the target fails three consecutive saves, the victim is turned to stone permanently. The effect can be reversed by a stone to flesh effect at any time. If used before complete petrification, no saving throw is required to survive the transformation. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

I like it.  

The medusa abilities sound fine, except the Int needs to be decreased.  Maybe Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 15

What did you think about the poison?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

As for the poison, I think it depends on how it is delivered.  If we cluster all the snakeheads into a single attack (like the medusa), then I think the Con damage you proposed is fine.  If we stick with 8 separate attacks (like it originally had), then that is way too powerful.  We could reduce it to 1 Con, perhaps, if we go that route.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

What did the medusa do in 2e regarding number of attacks?  Keep in mind also that each of these poison attacks could cause death on a failed save!  Anyway, I think if the medusa originally had many snake hair attacks, we should just combine these.  Otherwise, let's keep them separate and reduce the poison damage.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Medusa snakes were a single attack in 2e as well, so we can go that route, and thus use the deadlier venom.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Actually, in that case, I'd say to go with 8 single attacks with the weaker poison since this is meant to be different than a standard medusa.  But I don't have a strong opinion either way.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm fine with keeping it different.  

Skills: 9
Hide 3, Move Silently 3, Spot 3?

Feats: 3
Ability Focus (poison)/Stealthy, Multiattack, Weapon Finesse?

Environment: Any?  (Medusa is Temperate marshes)

Challenge Rating: 5?

A thousandtooth is 4 feet in diameter and weighs x pounds.

Thousandtooths speak X.  (Medusae speak Common)


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

I'd go with ability focus for the 3rd feat.  I was thinking underground for environment and Undercommon for the language.  Otherwise, any and Common also work.  I think CR 5 and those skills are fine.  200 lbs?


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2008)

Looks done, I guess!


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

*Jaleeda Bird*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any temperate or subtropical
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any, usually night
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 (1-4)
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 15, Fl 24 (C)
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/1-8/1-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Snatch, cry
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to charm spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (8'-9')
MORALE: Unsteady (7)
XP VALUE: 2,000

A jaleeda bird is a bizarre creation of Jason Krimeah, the Exalted One. It was a by-product of his research to create a jakar. The bird, developed utilizing the theories that created the owlbear, is a hideous cross between a great ape and a giant eagle. It is named after Krimeah's uncle, whom the mage despised. The creature is mean and ravenous, and possesses a cruelty unmatched by any other animal in the vale. Its behavior is believed to stem from its unnatural condition. Krimeah created a dozen of these birds, none of which he could control. He released them into the valley, where tales of their appearance has been added to the reported monster sightings that keep common folk from trespassing into his land.

Jaleedas are covered with a mix of thick, black hair and brown and white feathers, which give them their Armor Class. The ugly creature has taloned, ape-like hands at the end of its great wings, which also are covered with hair and feathers. Its feet end in large, powerful talons. It has a large maw that is both ape- and bird-like-a jagged yellow beak and a mouth full of teeth. Jaleedas range in height from eight to nine feet, and have a 30-foot wingspan. They have piercing red, deep-set eyes. The birds have little sanity, as the process that created them ripped away their reason.

Combat: A jaleeda fights with little provocation, rapidly going after creatures and people it believes has invaded its territory. The bird usually announces itself with a shrill cry that sounds like a great ape in pain; the cry is so loud and terrifying that creatures of less than 5 Hit Dice that hear it must roll successful saving throws vs. petrification or run in fear for Id6 rounds. The bird usually attacks three or fewer creatures, having enough sense not to tackle too many foes. A jaleeda attacks a large group of creatures or people only if its cry has caused some of them to scatter. The bird prefers to pursue creatures affected by its cry so it can attack them from behind.

The jaleeda apparently has no combat strategy, for the bird wildly plunges at its target or targets. It can attack with the claws on its wings and its bite, or with its taloned feet and its bite. If the bird successfully attacks a victim with both of its feet, it has in effect snatched the victim and can carry him aloft. The bird has been known to drag a victim across the tops of trees or along the sides of mountains to kill him before tossing him to the ground where it devours him.

Because the bird has such a low intelligence and little sanity, it cannot be charmed.

Habitat/Society: Jaleedas nest at the tops of lowly crags or high in the branches of large trees. They establish a territory around their lairs and attack creatures entering the territory.
If a jaleeda is encountered alone, it is likely a young bird, one to three years in age; birds older than that mate with others of their kind, mating for life and producing Id6 eggs every six months. Only one jaleeda hatchling survives. The first to hatch devours the unhatched eggs. The young jaleeda stays with the parents until it is time for the next clutch of eggs to hatch; at this time it is sent out on its own.

At one time the population within the vale was estimated at nine dozen, but the valley elves and tree people have reduced that number by about two-thirds. It is unknown how many jaleeda birds exist outside the valley. The elves and tree people have little trouble dispatching a bird that has established its territory near one of the settlements. The elves and tree people routinely set up a dummy in a clearing within the bird's territory and hide in the foliage with their bows ready. Because the bird is stupid, it usually flies at the dummy and is brought down by a volley of arrows. Although the bird has keen senses of hearing and eyesight, it has a poor sense of smell and no common sense.

Ecology: Jaleeda birds are omnivorous, eating plants, animals, and humans and demihumans. They do not like water and therefore refrain from eating fish and creatures that live on river banks. Their preferred diet is monkeys and large birds, which they seem to envy and detest.
Jaleedas' covet treasure, collecting items from their prey and hiding these in their nests. They especially enjoy shiny objects and regularly inventory their horde to make sure creatures invading their territory have not stolen from them.

Jaleedas are believed to live about 50 years and are able to lay eggs through the first 40 years. They seem to have no language, but communicate with each other through horrid-sounding caws and wing gestures.

Originally appeared in WG12 - Vale of the Mage


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

Sounds ugly.  This would be a magical beast, then.  Not much of a hint about abilities, other than Int, which I would put at the low end, Int 5.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2008)

Well, let's go to the comparisons for its ability scores.

Dire Ape: Str 22, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7

Giant Eagle: Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10

The jadeela is probably the best of both worlds physically, and badly off mentally (although it's really scary, so a higher Cha would boost its terror screaming) So, how about...

Str 22, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 5, Wis 8, Cha 14

Feats-wise, Flyby Attack seems like a must, as does Multiattack. The actual Snatch feat wouldn't work, because of its size limitations. How about giving it improved grab, with the caveat that it can carry up to a heavy load and still fly?

A racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks would be advised - it's in theme with other giant birds, and lets them have a low Wisdom for that "no common sense".

I say expand the immunity to charms to an immunity to all mind-influencing effects. The scream would go something like:

Terror Cry (Ex): At will as a standard action, a jadeela can screech horribly, causing all creatures with 5 or less HD within a 120 ft radius to make a DC XX Will save or be panicked for 1d6 rounds. Creatures with more than 5 HD are shaken instead for the duration. Any creature that successfully saves is immune to the terror cry of that jadeela for the next 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma based.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

I like all that, though I think you've swapped the "l" and "d" in jaleeda.

Natural armor seems to be +3 if we want to match the original AC, but the wording on the original strongly suggests a +6 natural armor bonus.  What do we want to do with this?

Regarding improved grab, I don't think it needs an additional special ability to fly with heavy loads.  With the Str you've given it and its size, a light load is almost 300 lb, which is enough for most Small or Medium PCs, I'd expect.

For the immunity to charms or mind-affecting effects, what about something sort of based on a derro?

Madness (Ex): A jaleeda bird is insane and therefore immune to all mind-affecting effects.  A jaleeda cannot be made sane by any means short of a wish or miracle spell.

If we want, we could use the Cha bonus for Will saves like the derro, as well.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2008)

Good point. I'd forgotten about the large size proviso. Still, it'd be good to mention that info in the Improved Grab line - how much it can carry - so that DMs know it's supposed to pick up and run off with their PCs.

Go for the +6 natural armor. Keeps this thing competitive.

I like using derro madness as a basis for their immunity to mind-influencing effects, and I agree that Cha to Will is a good addition.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

Nat armor +6 sounds about right to me, also.

Going with the more full version of madness:

Madness (Ex): A jaleeda bird is insane and therefore immune to all mind-affecting effects. In addition, a jaleeda bird uses its Cha modifier on Will saves instead of its Wisdom modifier.  A jaleeda cannot be made sane by any means short of a wish or miracle spell.


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 29, 2008)

What about Power Attack as the last feat?


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2008)

Always a fine choice.  Either than, or Improved Critical, since it meets the prereqs.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 29, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Always a fine choice.  Either than, or Improved Critical, since it meets the prereqs.



It doesn't meet the prerequisites (+8 BAB) when it "got the feat" (at 6 HD). I'm not sure about the rules-kosherness of that, but it always strikes me as distasteful. So, in other words, I vote Power Attack.   

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> It doesn't meet the prerequisites (+8 BAB) when it "got the feat" (at 6 HD). I'm not sure about the rules-kosherness of that, but it always strikes me as distasteful. So, in other words, I vote Power Attack.




As far as I've always been able to tell, it appears kosher (if distasteful).  I'm fine with Power Attack, though.

How much racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks?

Split the skill ranks between Listen and Spot?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-4)  [x=flight?  terror?]

Challenge Rating: 6?

Treasure: x  (Type "D" in 2e looks like standard)

Alignment: Usually(?) neutral evil

Advancement: 9-16 HD (Large); 17-24 HD (Huge)?

A jaleeda bird is 8 to 9 feet tall with a 30-foot wingspan. It weighs x pounds. They have a lifespan of 50 years.


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## freyar (Mar 3, 2008)

Let's go with Power Attack, then.

Just a +2 bonus, I think.  There's nothing that indicates they are particularly unsurprised.  

Splitting the skill ranks seems good.

Go with terror!

CR 6 sounds ok.

Standard treasure, usually NE, advancement look good.

Do we have a weight for something like a dire eagle?  I just looked at the giant owl, but no luck?  Otherwise, I'd have to suggest something like 100-150 lb.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

We're in luck!

"A fully grown dire eagle weights up to 650 pounds."


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## freyar (Mar 3, 2008)

And that's about the right size?  Which book is that from, btw?


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

Races of Stone, of all places.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

Updated, with flavor!

What's left?


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## freyar (Mar 3, 2008)

I don't see anything missing.  We must be close to another batch of 10...


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I don't see anything missing.  We must be close to another batch of 10...




Check the "Current Conversions Requests" thread.   We're close to a batch of 50!


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Check the "Current Conversions Requests" thread.   We're close to a batch of 50!



 Wowsers, you'll be busy uploading those to the CC!


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Wowsers, you'll be busy uploading those to the CC!




Yeah, I plan to try to add 10 today.  We got ahead for awhile there, and I like to give each batch at least a week in the "spotlight".   I"m also trying to upload themed batches now, so just having 10 doesn't immediately necessitate an upload.

Hey, new avatar!


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, I plan to try to add 10 today.  We got ahead for awhile there, and I like to give each batch at least a week in the "spotlight".   I"m also trying to upload themed batches now, so just having 10 doesn't immediately necessitate an upload.
> 
> Hey, new avatar!



 Nice to know we're making some progress, though.  

Thanks!  I always thought it would be neat to have a custom avatar.  I painted that little dragon myself last time I took vacation, and my wife finally convinced me to take a picture and shrink it down.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

Nice work.  I like it.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

*Grist (True Gargoyles)*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any stone building or rocky mountainside
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE.: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: L,M,N
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 9, Fl 12 (B)
HIT DICE: 8 +4 (42 hps)
THACO: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4 (sometimes 6)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/1-8/1-10/1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Fear gaze, snatch
SPECIAL DEFENSES: + 1 or better weapon needed to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: L (12')
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 7,000

The grist is a rock-like creature that resembles a gargoyle or margoyle, but it is considerably larger and much more fearsome. Grists were created by Jason Krimeah, the Exalted One, by taking a statue resembling a gargoyle and casting wish, stone shape, polymorph any object, fear, fly, and geas spells upon it. Grists are semiintelligent and thus able to follow only the simplest of instructions. But they follow these instructions to the letter. It is unknown how many grists the mage created, but several dozen are believed to exist. Krimeah termed his creation "true gargoyles;' as they fit his vision of what a gargoyle should be.
A grist has been enchanted to give it a resistance to magic and an immunity to normal weapons. Its skin looks like the exterior of the stone building or rocky mountainside it attaches itself to, and its dense rock make-up causes the grist to weigh between one and three tons. Despite its weight, a grist moves at a rate of 9 on the ground and 12 in the air. The wings are not needed for flight, but they are used to help it maneuver while in the air. If the wings become damaged, the maneuverability class of the grist worsens by one.
A grist can effortlessly cling to the sides of buildings and rocky mountainsides. It can only bond itself to stone, brick, or rock. When in place, the grist looks like an unmovable statue of a stone gargoyle that is part of the building.

*Combat*: A grist remains in place on the side of a building or mountain until the conditions of its orders are met, such as "prevent any armored humans from entering this building." A grist with this order would remain in its statue-like pose until a human attempts to enter its building or tries to attack it, at which time it animates. Until that time, only a detect life spell will register the grist as a living creature. A detect magic spell will show that the grist is enchanted. Once a grist is animated, it fights fearlessly until destroyed. It prefers to fight from the air, as it can maneuver better. When attacking, a grist prefers to direct all of its blows against a single target in an attempt to dispatch that target and then move on to the next. It attacks with its claws, bite, and a tail swat. The tail of a grist is usually spiked like a maul. In addition, some grists have four arms instead of two, giving them six attacks per round. If two of a grist's claws hit the same opponent during a single round, the grist has successfully snatched its opponent. Such an opponent is usually taken into the air to be hurled back down to the ground in an attempt to quickly dispatch it.
Once every ten minutes the grist can generate a fear gaze. This cone-shaped gaze appears as a gray beam emitted from the creature's eyes. The cone is two feet wide at its point of origin, 30 feet wide at the base, and 60 feet long. Creatures caught in the gaze must roll successful saving throws vs. spell or be affected as by a fear spell.
The grist is immune to normal and magical fire and cold. In addition, it has a 20% magic resistance to all other spells. The grist is not affected by poisons.

*Habitat/Society*: The grist does not speak, as it has no vocal cords. Itfollows the orders of its master and is incapable of independent thought.
A wounded grist repairs itself by reattaching to its assigned structure and drawing minerals from it. It heals at a rate of 24 hit points a day.
There are no males or females of the species; grists are created magically and cannot reproduce. Nor do grists change size, remaining throughout their existence at the same height and weight they were given at their creation.
Grists are found in groups of 2d4, the more numerous they are, the more important the item being guarded. Grists have no real treasure of their own. However, if defeated grists are shattered, gems and coins occasionally can be found inside them-they consume rocks and minerals found on their victims, which includes ore, coins, and gems and jewelry.

*Ecology*: Grists are found attached to the inside or outside of buildings, as well as along columns, roofs, and rocky mountainsides. They have not been encountered elsewhere. They are not believed to communicate with each other.

Originally appeared in WG12 - Vale of the Mage


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

OK, so the grist's freeze ability seems to be better than that of an ordinary gargoyle. We could give them _statue_ as a SLA at will to reflect this. Its fear gaze could also be simulated just by _fear_ as an SLA--it's not a gaze in the 3e sense so much as it is a cone, like the spell.

Again, like the jadeela bird, it's too small for the actual Snatch feat to be of any use, and we should incorporate its light load into its Improved Grab write-up, so DMs know it can take their PCs away with it. 

Changing a gargoyle's type to Construct, than advancing it to Large and 8 HD is probably a good place to start. Slap on Improved Grab, lower the Intelligence, raise the Charisma (for the fear), give it some spell resistance and energy immunities... 

The four-armed variant can get a short paragraph. Give it rend and a +1 CR adjustment, I say.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

Here's how what you described might look...

Large Construct (Earth)
Hit Dice: 8d10+30 (74 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 30 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 30 (+1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+16
Attack: Claw +11 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d6+6) and bite +9 melee (1d8+3) and gore +9 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: x
Special Qualities: x
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 12, Con -, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: x
Feats: Multiattack, 2 more


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Looks like a good starting point to me. The base damage should be changed, gore goes to tail slam, but other than that... I might want to boost its strength and raise its natural armor (although to 30 is going just a bit far... )

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2008)

Yeah, that's a very high AC for its likely CR.  Low twenties might be a bit better.    For SLAs, sounds like we want statue at will and fear maybe 3/day?  For this


> A wounded grist repairs itself by reattaching to its assigned structure and drawing minerals from it. It heals at a rate of 24 hit points a day.



we should give some kind of special ability.  Maybe

Mineral Healing (Ex): A grist attached to stone, whether a natural rock or a stone building, may draw minerals from the stone to heal 1 hit point of damage per hour.  The grist may not take any actions during that hour, or else it does not heal.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

Oops...my math's off.  It should be 20.  (I got it right in the parentheses, at least).    

All the other suggestions look good.  I'll get a Homebrews going soon.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Still want a Str boost?



> Despite its weight, a grist moves at a rate of 9 on the ground and 12 in the air. The wings are not needed for flight, but they are used to help it maneuver while in the air. If the wings become damaged, the maneuverability class of the grist worsens by one.




Supernatural flight like a beholder?

Should we make the fear a Su ability, to help out the DC?  Should statue be Su as well?



> A grist can effortlessly cling to the sides of buildings and rocky mountainsides. It can only bond itself to stone, brick, or rock.




Climb speed? 



> It attacks with its claws, bite, and a tail swat. The tail of a grist is usually spiked like a maul.




Should tail be bludgeoning and piercing?



> The grist is immune to normal and magical fire and cold. In addition, it has a 20% magic resistance to all other spells. The grist is not affected by poisons.




Stick with full immunity to fire and cold?



> Grists are found in groups of 2d4, the more numerous they are, the more important the item being guarded. Grists have no real treasure of their own. However, if defeated grists are shattered, gems and coins occasionally can be found inside them-they consume rocks and minerals found on their victims, which includes ore, coins, and gems and jewelry.




Treasure:  Standard coins; standard goods (gems and jewelery only); no items?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2008)

Bludgeoning/piercing tail. Climb speed sounds good, and I think we should stick to full immunity to fire and cold. I like the supernatural fly speed. With 8 HD, making fear a supernatural ability doesn't actually change the DC, although we could make it supernatural with advancement in mind.

And yeah, I still think its Strength should be a bit higher. 26?

Demiurge out.


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## Leopold (Mar 11, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> .
> 
> 
> 
> Supernatural flight like a beholder?




Yes




> Should we make the fear a Su ability, to help out the DC?  Should statue be Su as well?



Yes to both.



> Climb speed?



Climb 20' Only when it's near rock like formations.




> Stick with full immunity to fire and cold?



make it 15 of each, full immunity is just silly.



> Treasure:  Standard coins; standard goods (gems and jewelery only); no items?



no items, it's rock, most coins and gems would be something it ingests or absorbs from the rock itself. Heck say 0 coins and gems only.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

Leopold said:
			
		

> make it 15 of each, full immunity is just silly.




How so?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> How so?



I like full immunity. It's a construct. Constructs are immune to things. That's their strength, since their saving throws are all poor.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2008)

Full immunity is fine by me, too.  The rest looks good.

For the last two feats, how about Ability Focus (fear) and Power Attack?


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 11
(Hide, Listen, Spot like gargoyles?)

CR 6?  (They are slightly worse than flesh golems at CR 7)

Advancement:  9-21 HD (Large); 23-24 HD (Huge)? (This follows size progression of stone golem)


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2008)

That all sounds good.  Maybe Hide 3, Listen 4, Spot 4 for ranks?


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2008)

Pretty much done except for the four-armed grist CR.  Think it's worth a bump to CR7?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2008)

It sure is, with rend.

Should we specify the range of the fear effect? As the spell suggests 60ft, but the wording is ambiguous enough that it could just mean that the effect is as per the fear spell, not the area. If that makes any sense.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Can't hurt to be specific...


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Updated.



> Grists were created by Jason Krimeah, the Exalted One, by taking a statue resembling a gargoyle and casting wish, stone shape, polymorph any object, fear, fly, and geas spells upon it.




Modifying from the stone golem and using the flesh golem for more CR-appropriate CL and pricing...

Construction
A grist's body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 500 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 17 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 17 Craft (stonemasonry) check.

CL 8th; Craft Construct, fear, fly, geas/quest, stone shape, caster must be at least 8th level; Price 20,000 gp; Cost 10,500 gp + 780 XP.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Looks good.  This one seems done, then.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

*Gargoyle (Of The Tors)*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon-Very Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2 (2-185)
ARMOR CLASS: 5 (body: AC 0 wings)
MOVE: 9" /15" (MC: C; F without wings)
HIT DICE: 4+4
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: Vegetables
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3/1-6/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: + 1 to hit (body only)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

A tor gargoyle is almost identical in appearance to a common gargoyle, but its primary physical difference is highly unusual-detachable wings. Sages have theorized that artwork and recorded sightings of wingless gargoyles, previously unexplainable, refer to this subspecies. Indeed, some have proposed that detachable wings may be the norm among gargoyles, but the evil and vicious nature of the common gargoyle makes this hypothesis unverifiable.

A tor gargoyle's wings are attached to its body by a special joint. Ligaments hold the wings in place until they are fully grown, at which time the ligaments decay, making the wings easily detachable. Detachability makes it easier for the tor gargoyle to move around in its favorite locales (ruins and underground caverns) and allows the tor gargoyle to lie on its back, solving many vexing problems regarding sleeping and mating.

A tor gargoyle grows several pairs of wings during its lifetime, but upon reaching adulthood will do so only to replace wings that have been lost. Growing a pair of wings is a long process for an adult tor gargoyle, requiring years.

Without its wings, a tor gargoyle flies with maneuverability class F. This means that the gargoyle takes four rounds to reach full speed, and that its flight path is utterly uncontrollable. A wingless tor gargoyle cartwheels through the skies, ricocheting like a pinball off all objects in its path. Such flights are short and almost inevitably end with the tor gargoyle plowing face-first into the ground.

The non-magical wings of a tor gargoyle can be attacked separately from its magical body. The wings are hit on a successful roll to hit AC 0 when the attacker is specifically targeting the wings. The wings can suffer 7-12 hit points of damage before being destroyed. Such damage does not count against the tor gargoyle's normal hit points (and vice versa).
The tor gargoyle differs from its more common relative in other ways, as well. Tor gargoyles are peaceful gargoylesnot ferocious predators at all. They are vegetarians, living on a diet of potatoes and turnips. They have been known to eat small, inoffensive animals when very hungry but they never attack anything more formidable than a sheep.

It is possible for tor gargoyles to coexist with humans and demi-humans. A tor gargoyle typically extorts its food from human communities, although the extortion is usually polite and good-natured. Those who do not cooperate are stuck with a clumsy, stupid, whining beggar until they give the wretch some food.

A tor gargoyle will never deliberately attack a human unless provoked; since no one can be sure what will provoke a tor gargoyle, wise humans avoid the creatures.

Possession of a set of tor gargoyle wings is of no benefit to land-bound creatures (such as humans), as they cannot fly in the first place. The wings are in fact useless to non-gargoyles except as curiosities.

Note: An article, authored by David A. Collins, appeared in POLYHEDRON(tm) Newszine #23 (the April 1985 issue), speculating about why the gargoyle and the margoyle are pictured in the Monster Manual sans wings, even though able to fly. The article suggested that the most plausible explanation is that gargoyles have the innate ability to fly without wings, but that they use non-magical detachable wings for maneuvering. This is the basis for the tor gargoyle in this adventure.

The DM must decide whether or not to make the tor gargoyle the prevalent type of its species. If this is done, a thriving monster species will be threatened with terminal wimphood. Given the behavior of the gargoyles in this adventure, it seems likely that the tor gargoyle is either the product of yet another mad wizard's experiment or else the product of a shocking combination of recessive mutant genes. The tor gargoyle seems fated for extinction. However, for those really bothered by artistic representations of wingless gargoyles and margoyles, this is as good an explanation as any.

Originally appeared in WG9: Gargoyle (1989).





			
				Echohawk from another thread said:
			
		

> Aside: "TREASURE TYPE: Vegetables"?!?




Indeed.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Oooh, I love these guys.  If you ever read the adventure, you'll see why they don't eat anything but veggies -- they're way too clumsy to catch anything else. 

I'd probably take a gargoyle's stats and bump just about everything down a notch.  Maybe Str 13, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 5 ?


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 14, 2008)

Are we still going to list "Vegetables" for treasure?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Are we still going to list "Vegetables" for treasure?




It sure is tempting.    

I think the stats freyar suggested should work fine.

Shall we follow the usually severing approach (like the kraken, squid, etc.) for attacking the wings?


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Yeah, let's go with a sunder attempt against the wings and give the wings hardness 0, 12 hp.  

For DR, 10/magic like a gargoyle, or should we drop it to 5/magic?  These are really silly monsters, in large part.

Looks like attacks are 2 claws 1d3, bite 1d6, gore 1d4.  Increase those to normal gargoyle damage (1d4 on the claws, 1d6 gore) or keep them lower?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I left some of the gargoyle stuff the same (skills, feats, etc.), but we can mix 'em up if we'd like.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

I'd say this is basically right.  Alignment needs to be usually neutral.  Other than that, the only other change I'd make is that the gargoyles can't regrow their wings.  The main plot of the Gargoyle adventure is recovering stolen wings, so I don't think it's intended for them to grow back.  OTOH, I'd say that any tor gargoyle can use any other tor gargoyle's wings just fine, again based on the adventure.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd say this is basically right.  Alignment needs to be usually neutral.  Other than that, the only other change I'd make is that the gargoyles can't regrow their wings.  The main plot of the Gargoyle adventure is recovering stolen wings, so I don't think it's intended for them to grow back.




The text seems to refute this:



> A tor gargoyle grows several pairs of wings during its lifetime, but upon reaching adulthood will do so only to replace wings that have been lost. Growing a pair of wings is a long process for an adult tor gargoyle, requiring years.






			
				freyar said:
			
		

> OTOH, I'd say that any tor gargoyle can use any other tor gargoyle's wings just fine, again based on the adventure.




Nothing in the text seems to refute this, so I'll remove that limitation.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 14, 2008)

Oh dear... these are from the "Gargoyles" adventure. No wonder they're so stupid.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 16, 2008)

Oh, right, they need the wings quickly in that adventure.  Good.  

Organization: tribe (50-185)? or clan?

6 ft and 500 lb?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Updated.

1d4 years for wing regeneration?

Standard or full-round action to attach wings?


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

I like 1d4 years.  Probably a full-round action.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

Done?


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

*Scryxull*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4+8
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Strength drain, spittle
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (15'-20' long)
MORALE: Special
XP VALUE: 975

The scryxull can best be described as a zombie snake. They are created by evil clerics and magic users to serve as guardians in vile and loathesome places.

Scryxulls resemble normal snakes, but have been observed in sizes up to 20 feet long. Their most distinguishing characteristic is their skin. which varies in color according to the snake's original appearance. What makes their skin unusual and instantly recognizable is that it appears to be covered by a layer of dust. Closer inspection reveals. however, that this is not dust, but a crusty layer of dead skin.

A scryxull's eyes can also give it away as a zombie snake. Recently created scryxull have solid black eyes. regardless of their original color. They maintain a sheen for up to six months. after which the eyes begin to dry and become dull. Eventually. the eyes drop out altogether.

Combat: The scryxull are fierce fighters and always battle to the death. They never retreat. They attack automatically when encountered. but can be called off by a command word from their master.

Scryxull always attack using their bite first. Their length allows them to rise off the ground much like a cobra. allowing them to attack face to face. Many people find this unnerving, and the weak of heart are overcome by fear. Non-adventurers have a 50% chance of succumbing to fear; at 0 level, a 10% chance; at 1st level, a 5% chance; and at 2nd level, a 2% chance.

When the scryxull makes a successful bite attack, it inflicts 2-8 hp and drains 1-3 points of strength.

If the scryxull is wounded or somehow prevented from striking with its bite. it will use its spit weapon. Once every four rounds. the scryxull can spit (THAC0 15) an oily glob of dust at its victim, aiming for areas of exposed flesh. especially the face. The spittle acts as a strong topical anesthetic and eventually paralyzes the victim at the following rate:

Round - Effect
1st round - Area of contact feels numb
2nd round - Area begins to stiffen; victim attacks at -4 penalty.
3rd round - Area becomes stiff; if face, arm, or hand affected, victim drops weapon. Vision and speech impaired if the face was affected; victim attacks at -4 penalty if leg affected.
4th round - Victim can no longer stand if leg was affected; breathing is labored if face was affected; arm is completely stiff and useless if affected.
5th round - No change for arm or leg; victim falls unconscious if face was affected.

Characters are allowed a saving throw vs. paralysis to avoid the effects of the spittle. Armor. clothing. and weapons suffer no ill effects from the spittle. If the spittle is washed off with ordinary water. the effects do not progress beyond that round. Ifwashed off with holy water, the symptoms are removed completely.

If a victim is struck in the torso, follow the effects as if struck in the face. The paralysis will affect the chest muscles. making breathing difficult.

If a victim is a spellcaster, paralysis will limit or prohibit casting. If struck in the face, the spellcaster may not use any spells, but may speak the command word of a magic item on the first round only. If a spellcaster's hand(s) is affected, spells requiring somatic components may not be used after the first round. The DM must rule whether a spellcaster may reach material components, depending on the injury (and whether one hand remains useful). Scryxull are immune to sleep, charm. fear, hold. death magic. poisons. and cold-based spells. Holy water inflicts 2-8 points of damage upon striking. They may be turned by priests as zombies.

Habitat/Society: Scryxull may be created anywhere a snake body may be found. The scryxull are typically created as guardians for evil temples. but may also be found in dungeons or the laboratories of evil mages. Scryxull will obey up to six brief commands (attack. halt. be still) spoken by their master.

Ecology: None. since the scryxull is created artificially.

Originally appeared in WGA1: Falcon's Revenge (1990).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

Oh, this is neat! Never heard of them before.

The primary special abilities seem to be frightful presence, Strength damage on the bite attack, and paralyzing spittle. Since there's no such thing as called shots in D&D these days, we're going to have to change things around on that last one. I like the idea of creeping paralysis--maybe we can fold the different effects together? Something like:

Anesthetic Spittle (Su): A scryxull can fire a oily glob of paralyzing dust at an opponent as a ranged touch attack. A creature struck by the spittle must make a DC X Fortitude save or immediately suffer a -2 (-4?) penalty to Dexterity and suffer a 20% chance to fail to cast spells with a verbal component, as if deafened. Every round thereafter for the next minute, the victim must make a DC X Fortitude save or take a cumulative -2 (-4?) penalty to Dexterity and a -10ft penalty to move speed. A successful save prevents damage done that round, but does not end the effect. When a creature's Dexterity is reduced to 0, it is considered paralyzed. At the end of the duration of the effect, all penalties are removed. A _remove paralysis_ spell or washing the victim in holy water (as a standard action) removes the effect.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

Sort of like the creeping petrification we've had recently.

This is a good start.  I'd say that this should be a normal ranged attack, rather than a ranged touch, just because it has to hit bare skin.  How long should the paralysis last?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Sort of like the creeping petrification we've had recently.
> 
> This is a good start.  I'd say that this should be a normal ranged attack, rather than a ranged touch, just because it has to hit bare skin.  How long should the paralysis last?



Well, in the draft I've got, it lasts for the minute - how long it took to reach 0 Dex. But if we want to give the paralysis a set duration, I'm all for that.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

Ah, sorry, so you were thinking that, once Dex hits 0, the effect vanishes?  Ok, that makes sense.  I'd maybe make it go a while past that, but I don't have any set idea.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2008)

No, no, the minute minus the Dex. As in, the effect lasts a minute total. It does Dex damage until Dex hits 0, then the victim is paralyzed for the rest of the minute.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2008)

Sounding good so far.

For ability scores, taking a Large viper...

Str 10, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

...and applying the zombie template (Abilities: A zombie’s Strength increases by +2, its Dexterity decreases by 2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.)...

Str 12, Dex 15, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1

Since save DCs will probably be Cha-based, bump that to 11 or higher?

Seem reasonable?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

Ok, got it now. Just having a brain freeze, don't mind me.

That sounds good.  Let's bump Cha to 11 for the fear DC (DC 12 for 4HD sounds good, b/c it seems like it doesn't scare adventurers easily), but I think the paralysis DC should be Con-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

But it's got no Con! I'd say make them both Cha based, as that's the standard for the undead.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2008)

Argh, silly me!  Yes, Cha-based, of course.  Can you tell I'm under work stress?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Argh, silly me!  Yes, Cha-based, of course.  Can you tell I'm under work stress?



Quite alright.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

Ok, this looks good.  How about 30 ft for the fear aura?  Also, I'd say make the Dex penalty -2 per round for the spittle.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2-6)

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

A scryxull is 15 to 20 feet long and weighs x pounds.

A spellcaster of xth or higher level can create a scryxull by casting create undead on the corpse of a serpent of at least Large size.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

Slither?

CR 2 or maybe 3

5-8 HD (Large), 9-12 HD (Huge)

20-30 lb?

CL 12?  These don't seem any tougher than a ghast.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 21, 2008)

I say CL for create undead and CR same as a ghast. We should add the ranged touch bonus for the anesthetizing spittle to the attacks line.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2008)

Ghasts are CR3 and CL 12 to create.  Agreed about the spittle.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

Updated.  Work complete?


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2008)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2008)

Ditto!

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

*Jakar*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Valley of the Mage and surrounding area
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5 better than the form assumed
MOVEMENT: Per form assumed
HIT DICE: 18 (90 hps)
THACO: 3
NO. OF ATTACKS: Special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Per form assumed
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to enchantment/charm spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: + 2 to saves vs fire and electrical attacks
SIZE: Variable
MORALE: Champion (15)
XP VALUE: 15,000

The jakar (pronounced ye-kare), or changer, is similar to a lycanthrope in that it can change from a human to an animal form. However, the jakar can assume any animal form and can appear as a human of any age.

The jakar, a creation of Jason Krimeah, the Exalted One, possesses a polymorph self ability that enables it to take on the form of a mammal, avian, or reptile, ranging in weight from 8,000 pounds to 1/4 pound. The jakar possesses the physical attacks of the assumed form, such as a dragon's claw and bite attacks, but not its breath weapon. Because of this unique ability, ajakar is virtually impossible to detect.

Combat: The jakar's fighting skills are based on the form it has assumed, employing to the fullest all the physical attacks of the form. If the jakar knows it will be in combat, it frequently assumes the form of a large ape or a great cat because of the damage these forms can inflict, the movement rate allowed it, and its ability to travel through the terrain.
The jakar assumes the mannerisms of the form it has taken; in a cat form, it stalks its opponents and sometimes plays with them before dealing a kil1ing blow.

The jakar can be unnerving to its targets during a fight because of its hit points and unusual Armor Class; its Armor Class is always 5 better than the form it has chosen. For example, an elephant has an AC of 6, but a jakar in elephant form has an AC of 1.

Habitat/Society: Only one jakar is known to exist, and it has been seen only within the Valley of the Mage. The jakar was once a human hierophant druid who made his home in the vale, finding the company of animals more to his liking than humans. The druid spent little time in his human form. The druid, called Jakar Whitewing, encountered Jason Krimeah after the mage appointed himself ruler of the valley. A violent confrontation ensued between the pair, as Jakar was tired of humans pretending to control nature. However, Krimeah and Jakar emerged from the incident unscathed, and the pair became as close to being friends as either of them would permit. Krimeah, obsessed with experimenting with magic and intrigued by the druid's preoccupation with animals, offered to work on a magical item that would enable Jakar to change form more often than his class allowed. In exchange the druid agreed to add his might to protect the valley. Jakar was confident that if anything went awry he would be able to dispel the effects of the magical item.

It took Krimeah a little more than a year to fashion a collar of chain mail imbued with a special polymorph self ability. The collar permits Jakar to change into any animal or human form up to 24 times a day, fully assuming all the physical abilities of the shape selected. Jakar cannot assume the form of an unnatural creature, such as an owlbear; the form must be of a natural animal. It is believed Kriineah made more than one of these collars, and some suspect that he gave them to others to create more jakar.

The druid was pleased with Krimeah's "gift;' and promptly pledged his life in defense of the vale and the mage. The druid donned the collar nearly three decades ago and has not seemed to have aged since. Jakar is at peace, moving more freely in the animal kingdom than he ever believed possible, and rarely selecting a human shape because he thinks of himself as an animal. He did not mind the side effects of the potent magical item; the druid cannot remove the collar and cannot cast druidical spells while wearing it. However, he has retained the following druidical abilities, which he can use in any form: identify plants, animals, and pure water; pass through undergrowth without leaving a trail; immune to charm spells cast by woodland creatures; +2 bonus to saving throws vs. all electrical and fire attacks.

It is believed other jakar would have different abilities, based on the class they had in their human form.

Ecology: The jakar lives alone or with other animals of the form it has assumed. It is omnivorous, eating whatever the animal's form it has assumed prefers. The jakar's treasure consists of the items it owned at the time it became a jakar and any additional items it acquired from the creatures and people it killed. Its lairs can be found in inaccessible spots, such as high on a mountain peak, or deep in a cavern, to prevent others from obtaining its treasure. The jakar speaks the language of the animal form it has assumed; in human form it speaks any languages it knew at the time the collar was placed on it.
The life span of the jakar is unknown.

Originally appeared in WG12 - Vale of the Mage (1990).


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

> It is believed other jakar would have different abilities, based on the class they had in their human form.




Is that enough to justify making this a template?


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Is that enough to justify making this a template?




Probably not, as that would require a crazy amount of work!    

We could hint that DMs could take that approach if they wished to create similar creatures, though.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Probably not, as that would require a crazy amount of work!




Well, I'm fine with making it unique, but I'm not quite sure why it's so much work.  Just grant a special wild shape ability and remove spell casting, I think.  Ahh, you're probably right.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

Ahh...that would be much less work. I thought you were discussing making a catch-all template to cover *any* class!


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

Abilities:  Str 15, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 11?

Just guessing there.  Obviously the physical scores are a little silly, since this changes to different animal forms all the time.  Maybe a specific bonus over the usual racial physical abilities?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

For starters, humanoid (shapechanger)?


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2008)

Have to agree with that.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I gave it most of the abilities of an 18th-level druid that still seemed pertinent.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Looks good.  How do you want to handle the shapechanging bit?  Change shape, alternate form, or something else?


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Good question.



> the jakar can assume any animal form and can appear as a human of any age.






> The jakar, a creation of Jason Krimeah, the Exalted One, possesses a polymorph self ability that enables it to take on the form of a mammal, avian, or reptile, ranging in weight from 8,000 pounds to 1/4 pound. The jakar possesses the physical attacks of the assumed form, such as a dragon's claw and bite attacks, but not its breath weapon. Because of this unique ability, ajakar is virtually impossible to detect.






> It took Krimeah a little more than a year to fashion a collar of chain mail imbued with a special polymorph self ability. The collar permits Jakar to change into any animal or human form up to 24 times a day, fully assuming all the physical abilities of the shape selected. Jakar cannot assume the form of an unnatural creature, such as an owlbear; the form must be of a natural animal. It is believed Kriineah made more than one of these collars, and some suspect that he gave them to others to create more jakar.




Do we want to limit it by D&D creature type, or by the category-spanning "mammal, avian, or reptile"?


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2008)

I'd say any human or animal.  Thinking about this more, we should make some kind of unique ability (rather than change shape or alternate form) due to the enhanced Str.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

You know, I think we should allow plant and elemental forms as well, since a druid of his level could wildshape into those forms.  And based on wildshape, I'd say allow Tiny to Huge size.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

Yeah, you're right.  How do you want to write this up?


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

How's this?

Change Shape (Su):  The jakar can assume the form of any animal, elemental, humanoid, pr plant of Tiny to Huge size.   The jakar can remain in a form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but the jakar reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form. 

Skills:  *When using its change shape ability, the jakar gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. 



> The jakar can be unnerving to its targets during a fight because of its hit points and unusual Armor Class; its Armor Class is always 5 better than the form it has chosen. For example, an elephant has an AC of 6, but a jakar in elephant form has an AC of 1.




+5 enhancement bonus to natural armor, or perhaps a deflection bonus?


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

Because of that bit about natural armor (and change shape doesn't get natural armor of the new form), I'd go with 

Enhanced Alternate Form (Su): The jakar can assume the form of any animal, elemental, humanoid, or plant of Tiny to Huge size. In addition to the usual alternate form special ability, the jakar gains a +5 enhancement bonus to natural armor compared to its new form. The jakar can remain in a form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but the jakar reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

Hmmm..maybe alternate form is more appropriate then, as it obtains the natural armor of the desired form.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  Made it easy to add the extra +5 natural armor, too.


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## Shade (May 2, 2008)

So then...

Enhanced Change Shape (Su): The jakar can assume the form of any animal, elemental, humanoid, or plant of Tiny to Huge size. In addition to the usual change shape special ability, the jakar gains a +5 enhancement bonus to natural armor compared to its new form. The jakar can remain in a form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but the jakar reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.


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## freyar (May 3, 2008)

Shouldn't it be alternate form rather than change shape, though, since it gets the regular natural armor plus something?  Wild shape is also closer to alternate form.


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

D'oh!  You're right...I confused myself.


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

Happens to me all the time.



> identify plants, animals, and pure water; pass through undergrowth without leaving a trail; immune to charm spells cast by woodland creatures; +2 bonus to saving throws vs. all electrical and fire attacks.




Looks like you've got the 2nd and 3rd items (counting by semi-colons) taken care of.  Should we add detect animals or plans and purify food and drink as SLAs (at will?)?  Also, maybe resistance 10 vs electricty and fire?


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

Good suggestions.

Updated.


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

CL 18 on the SLAs?

Regarding AC, attacks, stats, etc, should we do the jakar's "natural" human form or some prefered animal form?  Or do a couple of stat blocks?


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## Shade (May 6, 2008)

CL18 sounds fine.  Let's just stick with the natural form.  Since he can become a very wide range of creatures, I think we can skip out on any preferred forms.


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## freyar (May 6, 2008)

Ok, let's deal with the AC.  Do we give him +5 natural (over the base +0 for a human) like he would get from the enhanced alternate form (in which case we should mention in the ability that it works for his human form, too)?  And any other AC boost?


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## Shade (May 6, 2008)

Yes to the enhancement bonus to natural armor in human form, no to other bonuses (unless we give him armor or magic items).


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## freyar (May 6, 2008)

We should probably give him some kind of armor or something, since AC 16 (+1 Dex, +5 natural) isn't going to be enough, I think.  Maybe some nice dragonhide or something?


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## Shade (May 7, 2008)

> It took Krimeah a little more than a year to fashion a collar of chain mail imbued with a special polymorph self ability. The collar permits Jakar to change into any animal or human form up to 24 times a day, fully assuming all the physical abilities of the shape selected. Jakar cannot assume the form of an unnatural creature, such as an owlbear; the form must be of a natural animal. It is believed Kriineah made more than one of these collars, and some suspect that he gave them to others to create more jakar.
> 
> The druid was pleased with Krimeah's "gift;' and promptly pledged his life in defense of the vale and the mage. The druid donned the collar nearly three decades ago and has not seemed to have aged since. Jakar is at peace, moving more freely in the animal kingdom than he ever believed possible, and rarely selecting a human shape because he thinks of himself as an animal. He did not mind the side effects of the potent magical item; the druid cannot remove the collar and cannot cast druidical spells while wearing it. However, he has retained the following druidical abilities, which he can use in any form: identify plants, animals, and pure water; pass through undergrowth without leaving a trail; immune to charm spells cast by woodland creatures; +2 bonus to saving throws vs. all electrical and fire attacks.




We could make this magic item quite potent, granting an armor bonus or deflection bonus, maybe greater magic fang on all natural weapons, etc.?   The guy is an 18th-level druid on top of his other abilities, so outta have some decent gear.


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## freyar (May 7, 2008)

Well, I think the +5 enhancement to natural armor comes from this item.  But I like the greater magic fang idea.  Maybe we should give him some magic armor and an ability that lets him use gear when in animal form.


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## Shade (May 8, 2008)

We could model it off the wild armor property.


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## freyar (May 8, 2008)

Just thinking: since the jakar has (enhanced) alternate form, rather than the druid's wild shape, I don't think we need wild armor.  Normally, in alternate form, you keep your gear as long as it fits on your new shape.  So we can add a line to Enhanced Alternate Form that "All gear that the jakar is wearing also changes shape to match the jakar's new form and remains functional."  With magic fang, we could add "All the jakar's natural weapons have a +1 enhancement bonus, as if affected by a permanent greater magic fang spell."


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Updated.

Let's knock out some more of the basics:

For the attack lines, shall we give him a weapon, or stick with unarmed strikes?

Skills: x
Druid class skills are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Feats: 7
Just about anything could work here, although since he can't cast spells, that rules out some common druid feats.

Challenge Rating: At least 18, probably 19

Treasure: Standard?

Advancement: By character class?



> The jakar speaks the language of the animal form it has assumed; in human form it speaks any languages it knew at the time the collar was placed on it.




The jakar speaks Common, Druidic, and Sylvan?

Speak with Animals (Su):  The jakar can continuously speak with animals (as the spell).


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## freyar (May 10, 2008)

Well, it's unlikely the jakar will be fighting anyone in human form, but let's give him a quarterstaff anyway (+2 or +3?).  Want to give him some armor, too?

Skills: Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Spot, Survival (all at 18 ranks)?

Feats: Animal Affinity, Blind-Fight, Track, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack ?  I assume he gets the benefit of Multiattack if his animal form has it; otherwise, he should maybe get it as a  bonus (since his human form can't qualify).

Yeah, probably CR 19 considering all jakars can shift into.

Standard treasure.

I'd prefer HD advancement.  I feel like the collar thingy removes normal druid abilities, and jakars act more like animals in a lot of ways.

Maybe add Aquan, Auran, and/or Terran to the languages.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Updated.

Suggested HD advancement?

Weight?

+4 dragonhide breastplate?


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Maybe even no advancement.  But we could go 19-27 HD (Medium) if you want.

At 6 feet, maybe 200 lb?

Sounds like reasonable armor.


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

Since he's unique, I'm fine with no advancement.  Any enterprising DM can decide to add a few HD or druid levels if so inclined.  

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

There's a "she" instead of "he" in Trackless Step, but otherwise done.


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

Finally!  That was one of my least favorite conversions ever.

I'm no fan of 3e lycanthropes, and this was similar enough to fall into that lot.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

*Grythok*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any subterranean
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Swarm
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Nil

NO. APPEARING: 10-80
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: I, FI 9 (D)
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: 10% cause disease
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (6")
MORALE: Unreliable
XP VALUE: 65

Grythok range in size from 2" to 6" long. Their soft bodies are oval-shaped and covered by a tough, leathery shell. All organs and exposed areas are completely covered by the hemispherical shell.

Beneath the shell are the grythok's mouth, legs, and sensory organs. The mouth is circular and completely surrounded by sharp teeth. The 12 legs are short and sharp, barely functional for movement, but effective for digging in and holding on to any material softer than leather. These legs have adapted to allow the grythok to hold on to its food or prey in order for the mouth to successfully attach. The legs function as barbs and cause no damage ifthe grythok releases them willingly, as when it is finished with a food source and chooses to move on. However, the legs cause 1-4 hp if the grythok is forcefully removed from its victim.

*Combat*: These creatures generally cling to the walls, floor, and ceiling of underground caverns. When a creature approaches, the grythok is aroused by any aura other than evil that comes within 60'. It immediately takes flight and attacks with all the vigor of an animal in a feeding frenzy. As it does so, it emits a high-pitched shriek that is inaudible to humanoid ears but is a clarion call to other grythok. Its cousins will respond to this "dinner bell" immediately, arriving at a rate of two per round. The shriek is audible to other grythok only within 60', but as farther grythok respond, they emit their own shrieks and the call carries through tunnels and caverns in a ripple effect.

The grythok is able to smell flesh, whether warm or cold, and attempts to attach itselfto any exposed flesh. It immediately digs in with its barbed legs and then attempts to sink its bite into its victim. A successful "to hit" roll by a grythok means that both its legs and mouth have dug into its victim's flesh. It will remain attached until it has finished feeding or has been forcefully dislodged.

The grythok then begins to take circular bites out of its victim, and slowly moves itself along to fresh areas of skin. Its many legs allow it to reposition itself without realeasing its iron grip. A single grythok will inflict a maximum of 30 hp before it is "full" and drops off its victim. If anyone makes successful THAC0 and Dexterity rolls, the grythok is dislodged at a cost of 1-4 hp to the victim.

One in ten grythok carry a disease due to their scavenging-habits. This is not a result of a spell, but simply due to the filthy conditions in which they live. No saving throw is applicable.
Grythok may be destoyed by any normal means, but attacking a grythok attached to a character also presents a risk of injuring the victim. A successful attack on an attached grythok indicates equal damage to the victim; a miss on an attached grythok requires a "to hit" roll against the victim.

*Habitat/Society*: The grythok are underground scavengers that inhabit dark, musty, dirty places. They are found mainly in sewers, garbage dumps, latrines, and cesspools, but rarely anywhere else, since they require conditions of filth to survive. They will eat almost anything, but prefer meat and meat-like substances, including rodents, insects, worms, and snakes. They would make ideal garbage disposals if it were not for their vicious and frequent attacks.

*Ecology*: Lengthy evolution has rendered these creatures immune to most diseases, although they are carriers and transmitters of many forms of plague and disease. They reproduce via egg-laying twice per year, but their population growth rate is slow since they often accidentally devour their own eggs.

Originally appeared in WGA1 - Falcon's Revenge (1990)


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

I'm inclined toward magical beast, but I could see aberration as well.  What do you think?

Clearly a candidate for the stirge's attach ability.


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## Echohawk (May 16, 2008)

I went with Vermin in my initial appraisal of the grythok, but it should be noted that I am very bad at guessing creature types .

It *looks* vermin-like to me though!


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Hmm, yeah, that would be another possibility.  Anyone else?


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Great illustration!  

The "aura of evil" is enough to lean me towards magical beast over vermin.


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Next point: I think these should actually be Diminutive based on the 2-6 inch size.  So 1HD Diminutive magical beast?


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

I'd be willing to call them aberrations, but if a stirge is a magical beast, why not these guys?


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## freyar (May 17, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I'd be willing to call them aberrations, but if a stirge is a magical beast, why not these guys?



 Yeah, that's my thought too.  Also, isn't the mouth supposed to be under the shell?  What's with that picture?

I see these as pretty weak but with a big grapple bonus since their legs are great for holding on but "barely functional for movement."  Dex is only +1 bonus if we stick with AC 15.  Con is probably average.  So how about Str 1, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 6 with a +20 racial grapple bonus?


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

That all sounds reasonable.   I'll try to get a Homebrews started shortly.


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6




Stirges deal no damage, should these?



> Beneath the shell are the grythok's mouth, legs, and sensory organs. The mouth is circular and completely surrounded by sharp teeth. The 12 legs are short and sharp, barely functional for movement, but effective for digging in and holding on to any material softer than leather. These legs have adapted to allow the grythok to hold on to its food or prey in order for the mouth to successfully attach. The legs function as barbs and cause no damage ifthe grythok releases them willingly, as when it is finished with a food source and chooses to move on. However, the legs cause 1-4 hp if the grythok is forcefully removed from its victim.




Should we add the 1d4 damage from the barbs to the attach ability, or create a separate ability?



> These creatures generally cling to the walls, floor, and ceiling of underground caverns.




Climb speed?



> When a creature approaches, the grythok is aroused by any aura other than evil that comes within 60'.




Similar to detect evil, but detects all other alignments?



> It immediately takes flight and attacks with all the vigor of an animal in a feeding frenzy. As it does so, it emits a high-pitched shriek that is inaudible to humanoid ears but is a clarion call to other grythok. Its cousins will respond to this "dinner bell" immediately, arriving at a rate of two per round. The shriek is audible to other grythok only within 60', but as farther grythok respond, they emit their own shrieks and the call carries through tunnels and caverns in a ripple effect.




Similar to shrieker's shriek?



> The grythok is able to smell flesh, whether warm or cold, and attempts to attach itselfto any exposed flesh.




Scent?



> It immediately digs in with its barbed legs and then attempts to sink its bite into its victim. A successful "to hit" roll by a grythok means that both its legs and mouth have dug into its victim's flesh. It will remain attached until it has finished feeding or has been forcefully dislodged.




Bite with improved grab, rather than attach?



> The grythok then begins to take circular bites out of its victim, and slowly moves itself along to fresh areas of skin. Its many legs allow it to reposition itself without realeasing its iron grip. A single grythok will inflict a maximum of 30 hp before it is "full" and drops off its victim. If anyone makes successful THAC0 and Dexterity rolls, the grythok is dislodged at a cost of 1-4 hp to the victim.




More support for bite attack?



> One in ten grythok carry a disease due to their scavenging-habits. This is not a result of a spell, but simply due to the filthy conditions in which they live. No saving throw is applicable.




Make disease standard?   Filth fever seems a likely candidate, even if overused.



> Lengthy evolution has rendered these creatures immune to most diseases, although they are carriers and transmitters of many forms of plague and disease. They reproduce via egg-laying twice per year, but their population growth rate is slow since they often accidentally devour their own eggs.




Immunity to disease?


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## demiurge1138 (May 19, 2008)

Immune to disease, yes. Bite + imp grab, no. Yes to scent, no to shriek.

I think they should have an attack (maybe bite, maybe not) that attaches, then they do hit point damage instead of Con. I think also that they should have a generic "know alignment" ability, and not attack evil creatures.


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

I pretty much agree with demiurge on all this.  I'd say the "attach" attack should just be a touch, like the stirge, because these don't seem to do any damage until they are attached.  In addition, I think the attach ability should have something added that removing an attached grythok deals an additional 1d4 hp damage due to the barbed feet.

Climb speed is good, since they're too weak to succeed any any kind of climb check otherwise.


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

Suggested climb speed?

Suggetions on how to write up blood drain without using Con damage?

Suggetions for the "know alignment" ability?


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Climb 5 ft, same as base speed.

Well, rather than blood drain, why don't we make it something like Chew, which fits the original flavor text better I think.  

Chew (Ex): Each round on its turn, an attached grythok does 1d6 hp damage to the creature to which it is attached.  When the grythok has dealt 30 hp of damage, it becomes full and flies off to digest.  If its victim dies before the grythok is full, it flies off to find another victim to complete its feeding.

And maybe:

Detect Alignment (Su): A grythok automatically detects the alignment of any creature that enters within 60 ft? of the grythok.  This ability can be fooled by any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that masks a creature's alignment (or the Use Magic Device skill, although that requires a successful emulate alignment check prior to entering range of this ability and maintaining concentration the whole time within range).  Grythoks grow agitated by any non-evil alignments and attack any non-evil creatures furiously, shrieking loudly all the while, which usually alerts any nearby grythoks.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

I like!

Updated.

How shall we work in the disease?  Transmitted with chew?


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## demiurge1138 (May 21, 2008)

Transmitted through chewing sounds good. Filth fever is standard, but red ache or the shakes might also work.


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Any of those diseases is ok.

Definitely Weapon Finesse for the feat.  Put the skill ranks in Hide?

CR 1/2?

Advancement: 2-4 HD (Diminutive)?


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

They look done!


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

Shouldn't the parenthetical on their touch attack be "attach" rather than "chew"? Aside from that, it looks done to me.


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

True that.  Good catch!


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Fixed.  Nice catch indeed!


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

*Horag*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any hills and mountains
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (7)
TREASURE: M, Q
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 6 (4)
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 8+3
THACO: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d12 (or by weapon +6)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: +3 to hit
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: Large (12')
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 2,000

The horag is a very rare crossbreed that arises from a union between an exceptionally large ogre and a relatively small hill giant. They associate with either hill giants or ogres, acting as somewhat more effective tacticians for the former and thundering damage-soaking behemoths for the latter.
A horag takes features from both of its parents, resembling a typical ogre in most cases but with a greater height, long arms, and stooped shoulders of a hill giant. Most horags weigh in at about 1,000 pounds, and almost 90% of them are male. A horag speaks ogre or hill giant, depending upon which group it was raised with. They live for about 100 years (only slightly longer than an ogre) and cannot use clerical or priestly magic. A horag's natural AC is 6, although the skins and piecemeal armor that most of them wear reduces this to AC 4.

Combat: A horag either uses its great fist to inflict incredible crushing wounds (ldl2 damage) or uses ogrelike weapons such as huge swords or clubs (which inflict weapon damage +6 for Strength). They affect disdain for missile weapons, preferring instead to close with prey and destroy it with their bare hands or hand-held weapons. However, when a horag is advising a group of hill giants it will recommend that the giants strike with thrown rocks before moving in for melee; the truth is that horags are not quite strong enough to use boulders as an effective missile attack and hide this shortcoming by ferocity in melee.

Habitat/Society: Most horags will be found with either ogres or hill giants-their immediate relatives. Those that live away from their blood kin tend to be loners, and prefer medium-sized open caves in hilly areas. These caves will often be partially blocked by loose rubble and large stones, as the horag will take pains to conceal and protect its lair. As there are so few of their kind, most horags end up mating with ogres or hill giants, the offspring being a somewhat odd-looking but essentially normal member of the other parent's race.

Ecology: Horag are much like their giantish parents--omnivorous but preferring meat, occasionally raiding humanoid settlements or trading with another humanoid race. They have even been known to hire on as mercenaries to evil armies, although in those cases they only truly feel comfortable if ogres or half-ogres are present.

Originally appeared in Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff (1999).


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Hill Giant: Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Ogre:  Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7

If we split the difference between the two, we get...

Str 23, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7

Look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

The line about being more effective tacticians suggests that maybe they should have higher mental stats. Wis 12, maybe?

Should we give them two slams? Also, the line "great fist" singular gave me the mental image that horags have one atrophied arm.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Int should be 7 from the original text, though I'd maybe even bump it to 8 due to the effective tacticians bit (were ogres smarter back then?).  I'd support higher Wis, too.

It would be funny if they had an atrophied arm, but I think 2 slams fits the intent.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

In the 2e Monstrous Manual, hill giants are Low (5-7), while ogres are Low (8).  So we can bump to 8, and bump Wis to 12.

Added to Homebrews using those stats.

Ogre is +5 natural armor, while hill giant is +9.  Split the difference for 7 again.

Ogres have darkvision, but hill giants do not.  Should horag?

Ogres are usually chaotic evil, while hill giants are often chaotic evil?  Which for horag?

Ogres have Climb, Listen, Spot.  Hill giants have the same, but add Jump.

Ogre Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Hill Giant Automatic Languages: Giant. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Sure, let's give them darkvision.  Helps them with tactics a little, I guess.

Maybe Often CE, since they seem to do ok in other cultures now and then.

Climb 4, Jump 3, Listen 4, Spot 4 for ranks.

Auto: Common, Giant.  Bonus: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Draconic.  Not that they're really smart enough to get any, though.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Updated.



> SIZE: Large (12')






> Most horags weigh in at about 1,000 pounds




Adult ogres stand 9 to 10 feet tall and weigh 600 to 650 pounds. Their skin color ranges from dull yellow to dull brown. Their clothing consists of poorly cured furs and hides, which add to their naturally repellent odor.

Skin color among hill giants ranges from light tan to deep ruddy brown. Their hair is brown or black, with eyes the same color. Adults are about 10-1/2 feet tall and weigh about 1,100 pounds. Hill giants can live to be 200 years old.


I don't think they should be larger than hill giants, so how about splitting the difference once more and going with 10 feet tall and around 900 pounds?

Use the entir range of skin coloration of both species?



> A horag either uses its great fist to inflict incredible crushing wounds (ldl2 damage) or uses ogrelike weapons such as huge swords or clubs (which inflict weapon damage +6 for Strength).




Both ogres and hill giants have greatclubs in their attack lines.  Shall we use greatswords to differentiate a bit?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

I like all of that.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Updated.

Feats: 3
Ogre has Toughness, Weapon Focus (greatclub) 
Hill giant has Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub)

CR 5 (smack dab in the middle of ogre and hill giant, like its HD)?



> NO. APPEARING: 1 or 1-3





> Most horags will be found with either ogres or hill giants-their immediate relatives. Those that live away from their blood kin tend to be loners, and prefer medium-sized open caves in hilly areas. These caves will often be partially blocked by loose rubble and large stones, as the horag will take pains to conceal and protect its lair. As there are so few of their kind, most horags end up mating with ogres or hill giants, the offspring being a somewhat odd-looking but essentially normal member of the other parent's race.




Hill Giant Organization: Solitary, gang (2–5), band (6–9 plus 35% noncombatants), hunting/raiding party (6–9 plus 2–4 dire wolves), or tribe (21–30 plus 35% noncombatants plus 12–30 dire wolves, 2–4 ogres, and 12–22 orcs)

Ogre Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3–4), or band (5–8)

So...

Organization: Solitary, mated pair (horag and ogre or hill giant mate), gang (horag plus 3–4 ogres or 2-5 hill giants), band (horag plus 5–8 ogres or 6–9 hill giants plus 35%,  hunting/raiding party (horag plus 6–9 hill giants plus 2–4 dire wolves), or tribe (horag plus 21–30 hill giants plus 35% noncombatants plus 12–30 dire wolves, 2–4 ogres, and 12–22 orcs)noncombatants)?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Power Attack, Imp Sunder, WF (greatsword)
CR 5 ok.
Organization is good, but you need to put noncombatants after 35% in the band.  I'd also make it 1-2 horags in the band, 1-3 horags in the raiding party, and 2-4 in the tribe.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (May 24, 2008)

Greatswords strike me as a little difficult to manufacture for these guys, since they live in the same societies as ogres and hill giants. Big axes, maces or morningstars would sit better with me.


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## freyar (May 24, 2008)

I think a 2-handed weapon sounds more appropriate, so maybe a greataxe (though the original text does mention swords).  

Any desire to add domains?  Otherwise, I think we're done.


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## demiurge1138 (May 24, 2008)

Let's go greataxe. I don't think we need domains--they presumably use the same domains as ogres or hill giants.


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## freyar (May 24, 2008)

Oddly enough, ogres and hill giants don't have any domains listed, which is I guess another reason not to give these any.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (May 27, 2008)

Yep!


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## Big Mac (Jun 1, 2008)

BOZ said:
			
		

> * SJR6 - Greyspace
> Horg
> Porton
> Skykine




Yay! More Spelljammer monsters in the queue.  Please poke me when you get that far down the list.

I'm not sure these monsters actually belong in a Greyhawk thread. They *are* from Greyspace, but the Horg stick to The Grinder and the porton and Skykine are planet bound creatures from other planets.

_I think the Horg treasure line is wrong, considering they pop away to another plane if you kill them. I also think they would need to be native outsiders. (I think they need a tactical speed in wildspace.)

Portons might be more of a hazard than a monster. And as they are connected to negative quasi-elemental planes, there is obvisly a bit of political baggage tied to them. (They might need a conversion to pure negative energy and pure elemental energy and a side bar with a quasi-elemental plane alternative.)

I'd say Skykine are the easiest to use in another campaign setting. They could actually live up in the clouds and spend most of their time off the ground. And their charge attack that does 10d12 damage (against creatures larger than size H) makes them an interesting creature to put into a monster vs monster encounter. (They could even make interesting mounts.)_

(I've also posted a message on Canonfire! asking for extra people to come over here and help with the GH monsters.)



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> How about this...
> 
> Lesser Telepathy (Su): An ingundi can communicate telepathically with a single creature within a range of 100? feet that has a language.   The creature believes that the ingundi is speaking in a language that it knows, and will reply verbally to the ingundi.   The victim may attempt a DC X Will save to reveal that the communication is telepathic.   Other creatures hear only a one-sided conversation from the ingundi's victim.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




This was on page 5 of the thread, so this response is way to late. But when you were making this, nobody seemed to have noticed the Speak without Sound ability of ghostwise halflings:



			
				FRCS page 18 said:
			
		

> Speak without Sound (Su): A ghostwise halfling, unlike other halflings, can communicate telepathically with any creature within 20 feet, just as if speakingto him or her. The halfling can only speak and listen to one person at a time, and he must share a common language with the person or creature he speaks to telepathically, or the telepathic link fails.




I'd say that (apart from the range) this was *very* similar to what an ingundi can do.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

*Griveling*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any cavern or mountain
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Minerals
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Good
NO. APPEARING: 2 or 2-24
ARMOR CLASS: 2 (-1)
MOVEMENT: 9, 12 (through stone)
HIT DICE: 5 +2
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells, + 1 or better weapon
needed to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6')
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 1,400

Grivelings are creatures believed to be natives of the elemental plane of Earth. It is unknown, even to the grivelings, whether they wandered through a portal to this plane or were transported here by mages. The grivelings cannot plane travel, and therefore are bound to Oerth. They have not been seen outside the Barrier Peaks and the Valley of the Mage.

Grivelings are found either in pairs or in clans of 2dl2. They have a humanoid form-two legs, two arms, and a head. In their normal state they do not possess the defined features of humanoids, such as distinctive muscles, fingers, ears, eyes, and mouths. However, grivelings that are used to dealing with or observing humans and demihumans alter their forms via a limited, yet natural, stone shape ability so they appear to have human-like facial features, digits, and clothes, mimicking the humans and demihumans they have seen. Many of the grivelings that live in the Barrier Peaks have the visages of Zurt, Summerstorm, Endoble, the First Protector, and the various guises of the Exalted One. Often the grivelings are not able to duplicate a humanoid face correctly, and the result is unusual or humorous, with eyes placed below mouths or odd-shaped ears in incorrect locations. Males and females are indistinguishable.

The grivelings, like the humans and demihumans in the Valley of the Mage, are believed to serve Jason Krimeah, the Exalted One. Grivelings range between four and six feet tall and weigh 1,000 to 3,500 pounds.

Combat: Grivelings are not fond of fighting, preferring to find peaceful solutions to differences between themselves and others. However, when pressed to fight, they fight relentlessly, using their heavy stone fists to batter opponents into submission. Grivelings attempt to kill opponents only when their own lives seem in danger. Because grivelings can see through rock and dirt as easily as others see through the air, they lie in wait inside the wall of a cave or other stone or dirt structure, and move part of their body out of the structure to fight, usually surprising opponents from behind or beneath. When grivelings remain attached to a stone wall, such as the side of a cavern, their Armor Class is -1. When they separate from the wall to engage opponents in melee or if they are attached to the earth, their Armor Class is reduced to 2.

When possible, grivelings use their surroundings to the utmost advantage during combat. For example, grivelings surprising their opponents often strike during one round of combat, and then move into the stone wall the next-only to emerge the following round from a different place in an attempt to surprise their opponents again.

Grivelings also use their spell-like abilities during combat. A griveling can perform any of the following, once per day: stoneskin, transmute rock to mud, transmute mud to rock, and dig as if it were an 8th-level wizard.
Because grivelings are not affected by the climate, they are not affected by normal cold or fire attacks or cold-based spells. However, magical heat and fire spells affect them. Further, because of their hard skins, + 1 or better weapons are needed to injure them.

Habitat/Society: Grivelings dwell inside the stone walls of caverns and inside mountains. In addition, they can live outside these surroundings, such as in caves, wooded areas, or in other terrains, but they prefer to be surrounded by rocks or dirt. They are not affected by a change in climate.

Grivelings are friendly and curious, spending much of their time watching the creatures in the vale who travel next to the Barrier Peaks and questioning them about what is happening deeper in the valley. Because they have observed the occupants of the vale for so long, they have acquired the common tongue, which they speak in slow, gravely tones. In addition, they speak a smattering of mountain dwarf and their own language. When their curiosity gets the best of them, they travel from their rock homes and into the wilderness. These trips are short and infrequent.

Members of a griveling clan rarely act without consulting others, as grivelings respect each others' counsel. Grivelings are very protective of their peers and share all of their accumulated wealth.

A mated pair of grivelings produces one offspring every six to 12 years, with the sex of the offspring chosen by the parents.

Ecology: Grivelings eat very little because of their incredibly slow metabolisms. Their diet consists of minerals, such as iron, silica, lead, and magnesium, which makes them a bane to miners. The average life span of a griveling is 1,500 years.

Originally appeared in WG12 - Vale of the Mage (1990).


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

Medium Outsider (native, earth)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2008)

I think they should be extraplanar. They came through a gate, and are now stuck here. It doesn't sound as if they're true natives.


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

So you think they can be banished?  Huh.  I had been thinking they are currently born in the Material Plane, so they'd be native, but I can see the other side of the story.

Also, maybe we should go with elemental instead of outsider.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 5, 2008)

Elemental makes good sense to me.


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## Big Mac (Jul 6, 2008)

freyar said:


> Medium Outsider (native, earth)?




I was wondering about naive too, but the creature is definatly an elemental. I checked the SRD and it says you can only have native outsiders.



demiurge1138 said:


> Elemental makes good sense to me.




Elemental sounds spot on to me.

It sounds like they have a burrow speed and some sort of "rockvision" that allows them to see through solid ground.

I think they need a sidebar to say that if used in Greyhawk they are only found in Barrier Peaks and the Valley of the Mage.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm thinking Elemental (Earth, Extraplanar).

Let's figure out ability scores.

We know Int is High (13-14).  Cha should be at least as good due to the use of SLAs and the pursuit of peaceful resolutions.

Earth elementals of similar size have Str 21, Dex 8, Con 17.  It doesn't appear that they would have a Dex penalty, and might be not quite as formidable as the earth elementals, so maybe...

Str 18, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 15?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

Those ability scores appeal.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> MOVEMENT: 9, 12 (through stone)




Earth glide?



> They have a humanoid form-two legs, two arms, and a head. In their normal state they do not possess the defined features of humanoids, such as distinctive muscles, fingers, ears, eyes, and mouths. However, grivelings that are used to dealing with or observing humans and demihumans alter their forms via a limited, yet natural, stone shape ability so they appear to have human-like facial features, digits, and clothes, mimicking the humans and demihumans they have seen. Many of the grivelings that live in the Barrier Peaks have the visages of Zurt, Summerstorm, Endoble, the First Protector, and the various guises of the Exalted One. Often the grivelings are not able to duplicate a humanoid face correctly, and the result is unusual or humorous, with eyes placed below mouths or odd-shaped ears in incorrect locations. Males and females are indistinguishable.




Change shape with a penalty on Disguise checks to imitate someone?



> Because grivelings can see through rock and dirt as easily as others see through the air,




How's this?

Earthsight (Su):  Grivelings can see through earth and stone as if it were air.  As a result, barriers constructed of these materials never break line of sight for a griveling.



> they lie in wait inside the wall of a cave or other stone or dirt structure, and move part of their body out of the structure to fight, usually surprising opponents from behind or beneath. When grivelings remain attached to a stone wall, such as the side of a cavern, their Armor Class is -1. When they separate from the wall to engage opponents in melee or if they are attached to the earth, their Armor Class is reduced to 2.






> When possible, grivelings use their surroundings to the utmost advantage during combat. For example, grivelings surprising their opponents often strike during one round of combat, and then move into the stone wall the next-only to emerge the following round from a different place in an attempt to surprise their opponents again.




Does earth glide suffice, or modify something like this?

Meld with Stone (Sp): A relief golem can enter a stone surface as a standard action as per the spell meld with stone. While inside the wall, any carvings or paintings on the wall shift and alter to accommodate the image of the relief golem that appears where it has merged. A relief golem can see and hear out of the stone surface that it is melded with. This effect lasts until the relief golem decides to exit the stone. The caster level for this effect is equal to the relief golem's Hit Dice. Casting stone shape on a wall containing a relief golem forces it to leave immediately.

Phase Door (Sp): A relief golem can walk through wood, plaster, and stone walls at will as per the spell phase door as a standard action. Such portals can only be used once and the relief golem cannot take other creatures through. The caster level for this effect is equal to the relief golem's Hit Dice.



> Grivelings also use their spell-like abilities during combat. A griveling can perform any of the following, once per day: stoneskin, transmute rock to mud, transmute mud to rock, and dig as if it were an 8th-level wizard.




Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—move earth, stoneskin, transmute mud to rock, transmute rock to mud. Caster level 8th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.



> Because grivelings are not affected by the climate, they are not affected by normal cold or fire attacks or cold-based spells. However, magical heat and fire spells affect them.




Immunity to cold and see below.



> Further, because of their hard skins, + 1 or better weapons are needed to injure them.




Stick with standard DR 5/- of earth elementals?



> They are not affected by a change in climate.




Give them ability that they never need to make Fortitude saves to avoid nonlethal damage in regions of extreme temperatures?



> Because they have observed the occupants of the vale for so long, they have acquired the common tongue, which they speak in slow, gravely tones. In addition, they speak a smattering of mountain dwarf and their own language.




Grivelings speak Common, Dwarven, and Terran in slow, gravely tones?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

I prefer DR 10/magic, like a gargoyle. 

Languages sound good, change shape with penalties sounds good, earth glide would suffice. Mention in their tactics that grievlings prefer to fight partially embedded in the rock, gaining the benefits of cover.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Fair enough.

Updated.

Regarding the "taking humanoid appearance", I think change shape may be too much for this ability.  Looking at it again...



> They have a humanoid form-two legs, two arms, and a head. In their normal state they do not possess the defined features of humanoids, such as distinctive muscles, fingers, ears, eyes, and mouths. However, grivelings that are used to dealing with or observing humans and demihumans alter their forms via a limited, yet natural, stone shape ability so they appear to have human-like facial features, digits, and clothes, mimicking the humans and demihumans they have seen. Many of the grivelings that live in the Barrier Peaks have the visages of Zurt, Summerstorm, Endoble, the First Protector, and the various guises of the Exalted One. Often the grivelings are not able to duplicate a humanoid face correctly, and the result is unusual or humorous, with eyes placed below mouths or odd-shaped ears in incorrect locations. Males and females are indistinguishable.




...it might be more akin to a mimic...

Mimic Shape (Ex): A mimic can assume the general shape of any object that fills roughly 150 cubic feet (5 feet by 5 feet by 6 feet), such as a massive chest, a stout bed, or a wide door frame. The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though. A mimic’s body is hard and has a rough texture, no matter what appearance it might present. Anyone who examines the mimic can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the mimic’s Disguise check. Of course, by this time it is generally far too late.

...but limited to the alterations listed above.   Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2008)

I'm not even sure it has to be an ability. Mention in the flavor text that, on their home plane, grivelings are featureless humanoids more like elementals, but on the Material Plane have subtly shaped their features to look more like Material Plane life, to limited success.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Good point.  It doesn't really functionally effect anything.

Updated.

Skills: 32
Diplomacy, Knowledge (geography), and Spot all seem appropriate. What else?

Feats: 2

Organization: Pair or clan (3-24)

Challenge Rating: 4?  They are slightly better than Medium Earth elementals. 

Treasure: Standard (communal)?

Alignment: Usually neutral good?

Advancement: 6-15 HD (Medium)?


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2008)

Maybe Sense Motive.

Feats: Negotiator, Iron Will?

The rest looks good.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2008)

I haven't followed these too carefully, but I think they look good.


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## Big Mac (Jul 20, 2008)

Shade said:


> Anything left?




You might want to do something with this stuff:



			
				Original Grievling said:
			
		

> Members of a griveling clan rarely act without consulting others, as grivelings respect each others' counsel. Grivelings are very protective of their peers and share all of their accumulated wealth.
> 
> A mated pair of grivelings produces one offspring every six to 12 years, with the sex of the offspring chosen by the parents.




(The "...share all of their accumulated wealth." bit is already done.)

How about adding a sentence to each of these two paragraphs:



			
				Converted Grievling said:
			
		

> Most grivelings make their lairs within the stone walls of caves and mountains. Since they are unaffected by extreme temperatures, they can survive nearly anywhere, although they prefer to be surrounded by earth or stone. They form small clans of up to a dozen individuals, sharing their accumulated wealth and food stores. Grivelings subsist on a mineral diet, and need very little to survive due to their slow metabolisms.
> 
> Grivelings are 4 to 6 feet tall and weigh 1,000 to 3,500 pounds. Skin coloration resembles the colors of dirt and stone, ranging from dirty brown to the dark black of rich soil. Males and females are indentical in appearance. Most live over 1,500 years.




Maybe something like this (my suggestions are in *bold*):

Most grivelings make their lairs within the stone walls of caves and mountains. Since they are unaffected by extreme temperatures, they can survive nearly anywhere, although they prefer to be surrounded by earth or stone. They form small clans of up to a dozen individuals, sharing their accumulated wealth and food stores. *Grivelings put the priorities of the clan first and rarely act without consulting other clan members.* Grivelings subsist on a mineral diet, and need very little to survive due to their slow metabolisms.

Grivelings are 4 to 6 feet tall and weigh 1,000 to 3,500 pounds. Skin coloration resembles the colors of dirt and stone, ranging from dirty brown to the dark black of rich soil. Males and females are indentical in appearance. Most live over 1,500 years. *The reproduction cycle of grivelings, like their metabolism, is slower than normal. A mated pair of grivelings can produce an offspring every six to twelve years. Parents are able to choose the sex of their children. They usually choose the sex that most benifits the clan. So if two male grivelings are killed, the next two offspring will be male, to make up the shortage.*​
That *might* need a bit of tinkering, especially the second paragraph, but I think it gets the original concept across.

Does anyone think that the "Grivelings are very protective of their peers..." bit should mean that they don't abandon other grivelings that are attacked? Maybe a line should be added to the combat section.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

Sure, I'll add that.


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## Big Mac (Jul 26, 2008)

Shade said:


> Sure, I'll add that.




Bump! (Or should I say Buuump!  ) I think you forgot to add this in all the rush.

Apart from this issue, I think these guys are done.

Please summon the next Oerthling?


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> Bump! (Or should I say Buuump!  ) I think you forgot to add this in all the rush.




Look again.  

Next!


"A bright campfire does little to dispel the darkness of the forest around you. The eyes of circling animals reflect the light, showing you to be surrounded. Suddenly, the campfire flames pull away from the wood and form into a leering face. "What is it that everyone wishes for, and yet wants to get rid of as soon as it is obtained?""

If the party does not answer, the circling creatures and the fiery face attack. [...]

*Fiery face:* AC 3; MV Fl12; HD 3; hp 15; THAC0 18; #AT 1; Dmg 2d4; SD +1 or better weapon to hit, immune to fire; SZ S (2' diameter); ML Champion (15); Int exc (15); AL NE; XP 270.
Note: The face attacks by brushing up against its victims, burning them with its fiery essence.

Originally appeared in Crypt of Lyzandred the Mad (1998).


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2008)

Interesting.  Elemental, Magical Beast (maybe not), or Fey?  Incorporeal?

Maybe some sort of flavor about riddling, a la the sphinxes?


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## Big Mac (Jul 28, 2008)

Shade said:


> Look again.




Nice.



Shade said:


> Next!
> 
> 
> "A bright campfire does little to dispel the darkness of the forest around you. The eyes of circling animals reflect the light, showing you to be surrounded. Suddenly, the campfire flames pull away from the wood and form into a leering face. "What is it that everyone wishes for, and yet wants to get rid of as soon as it is obtained?""
> ...




A creature that lives in a fire, definately sounds like a fire elemental of some sort. It looks like it has some sort of slam attack (or a firey headbut ). 

One thing that interests me is this sentence:

"If the party does not answer, the circling creatures and the fiery face attack."

That would seem to imply that the creatures are actually working for the face. My guess is that the face can either charm animals or is an evil druid. Or if the face isn't a full blown druid it has a Summon Nature’s Ally spell-like ability.

Personally, from what I have seen so far, I'd rather go for an evil elemental with druid-like animal summoning.

Is there anything else in the text that could give a clue to the "motivation" of the animals that attack at the same time as the firey face? (i.e. do they seem to be under the control of the face?)


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Or an incorporeal touch, depending on how we go with this. 



Big Mac said:


> One thing that interests me is this sentence:
> 
> "If the party does not answer, the circling creatures and the fiery face attack."
> 
> ...




See, this is why I'm sort of leaning toward fey here.  But I can be convinced one way or the other.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

I really like the idea of this being an incorporeal, riddling fey


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I really like the idea of this being an incorporeal, riddling fey



Yeah, I think that's my vote as well.


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## Echohawk (Jul 29, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> Is there anything else in the text that could give a clue to the "motivation" of the animals that attack at the same time as the firey face? (i.e. do they seem to be under the control of the face?)



The only other text for this encounter is the stats for the circling creatures (four jackals and three jackalweres), the answer to the riddle, and a line that says "Exits: The fire pit, the highest point of the three surrounding hills."

CoLtM isn't a traditional adventure, but 100 encounters strung together with the theme of being part of a labyrinth created by the lich Lyzandred on his own personal demi-plane. To say that many of the encounters are somewhat lacking in depth would be an understatement .


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> The only other text for this encounter is the stats for the circling creatures (four jackals and three jackalweres), the answer to the riddle, and a line that says "Exits: The fire pit, the highest point of the three surrounding hills."
> 
> CoLtM isn't a traditional adventure, but 100 encounters strung together with the theme of being part of a labyrinth created by the lich Lyzandred on his own personal demi-plane. To say that many of the encounters are somewhat lacking in depth would be an understatement .




Well, in light of this, I'd say that this is probably intended to be an elemental bound by Lyzandred (and the jackals/jackalweres probably work for Lyzandred also).  So there would be no need for riddling or druidic-type abilities.

But I still agree with demiurge that a riddling incorporeal fey would be much more fun.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

freyar said:


> But I still agree with demiurge that a riddling incorporeal fey would be much more fun.




Agreed.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

So shall we go with Small Fey (Incorporeal)?


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Sounds good.  Let's figure out ability scores.

As an incorporeal creature, it will have no Str score.  Int is 15.  Since AC translates to 17, and it gets a +1 size bonus for Small, we'll need +6 split between Dex and Cha to account for the remaining AC.  Con appears average.  Wis is probably decent if it is a "riddler".

So maybe...

Str -, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 18, Cha 17?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 30, 2008)

Those ability scores sound good!


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Let's set DR 5.  Does it need DR /magic, since only magic weapons can hit something incorporeal anyway?

Are the sunlight vulnerability and talisman left over from something (like one of the Filipino "demons")?


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## Big Mac (Jul 30, 2008)

freyar said:


> But I still agree with demiurge that a riddling incorporeal fey would be much more fun.




Fun is good!



Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




I think it needs the Fire Subtype. I also think it needs the hide skill (so that it has the ability to hide in fire) or maybe the ability to become invisible within fire.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

freyar said:


> Let's set DR 5.  Does it need DR /magic, since only magic weapons can hit something incorporeal anyway?




Good point on the magic.  I only added it because it was incorporeal, but if it's implied, we can remove it.



freyar said:


> Are the sunlight vulnerability and talisman left over from something (like one of the Filipino "demons")?




Oops!  That is indeed what happened.  I looked for a previous fey to use as a "template" and missed that.  Thanks!

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

Yeah, no DR if it's incorporeal. And I echo Big Mac's suggestion for a "hide in fires" ability.


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> I think it needs the Fire Subtype.




Yeah, it sure does!   Where's that forehead-slap smiley?  



Big Mac said:


> I also think it needs the hide skill (so that it has the ability to hide in fire) or maybe the ability to become invisible within fire.




Agreed.  Something like this?

Hide in Flames (Ex):  A fiery face becomes nearly invisible within a source of fire.  If a fire of at least its size is nearby, a fiery face can use the Hide skill even while being observed.   Additionally, it gains a +x racial bonus on Hide checks made within a fire.

I think we also need this...

Masquerade as Fire (Ex):  While motionless, a fiery face can appear to be a campfire or similarly-sized blaze.  Anyone who examines the fiery face can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the fiery face's Disguise check.



demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah, no DR if it's incorporeal. And I echo Big Mac's suggestion for a "hide in fires" ability.




Drop the cold iron DR too?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

I think we should drop the cold iron DR. This is a pretty low-level creature, right? How many magical cold iron weapons will be floating around parties at that level?


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think we should drop the cold iron DR. This is a pretty low-level creature, right? How many magical cold iron weapons will be floating around parties at that level?




Not many.  But I kindly direct you toward the CR 1 grig...and the nixie...and the petal...


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Hide in Flames and Masquerade as Fire look good!  

We could compromise on the DR and do something unusual like DR 3/cold iron in view of the fact that you already need magic weapons.  

Do we want a "riddling" ability, or just flavor?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

The taunting haunt in MM5 has a neat riddling ability... it rejuvenates unless its riddle is solved. 

I don't think we should go for that, though. Perhaps if its riddle is solved, it grants a small blessing; if a wrong answer is given, a curse.

Oh, and:



Shade said:


> Not many.  But I kindly direct you toward the CR 1 grig...and the nixie...and the petal...




Just have DR/cold iron. I was talking about magic _and_ cold iron--highly unlikely, especially because cold iron costs more to enchant.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

I like the blessing and curse effect.  Though, since they're NE, the curse should probably outweigh the blessing.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

freyar said:


> I like the blessing and curse effect.  Though, since they're NE, the curse should probably outweigh the blessing.




Agreed.


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Great idea.

Here's a start...

Riddling Curse (Su):  As a standard(?) actions, a fiery face may present a supernatural riddle.   Those who hear the riddle may choose to answer it within x rounds.  If answered incorrectly, the victim becomes cursed (as the bestow curse spell, no save).  If a correct answer is given, the fiery face begrudgingly bestows a boon to those who answered correctly, granting the benefits of a bless spell for 24 hours.

Listeners are not compelled to answer the riddle.  Those who choose to not answer the riddle are usually attacked by the fiery face and its minions.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

I like it!  Definitely standard action, maybe 10 rounds?

Now maybe figure out its minions for the attack!  Usually accompanied by some set of animals, like jackals?


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

If it enjoys ridiculing and laughing at those who cannot answer its riddles, than jackals, hyenas, and the like do seem appropriate.  

Along those lines, maybe give it hideous laughter as a spell-like ability to encourage mocking from those nearby?


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

Hmm, that has a feel like a pixie with irresistable dance.  I'd like to see what anyone else thinks, since it's a little bit farther from the original text.

Do we just want to put the jackals, hyenas, etc, in the organization and flavor or give it some charming ability over them?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

Not so into the hideous laughter, but I do like the association with jackals and hyenas.


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## GrayLinnorm (Aug 1, 2008)

How about gnolls?


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> How about gnolls?




I'd say they fit in nicely.


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## Big Mac (Aug 3, 2008)

freyar said:


> Hide in Flames and Masquerade as Fire look good!




Yep. They look great. My only question is do they stack? i.e can the Fiery Face use its Masquerade as Fire ability to improve its Hide in Flames check?



freyar said:


> I like the blessing and curse effect.  Though, since they're NE, the curse should probably outweigh the blessing.




Or how about something that is both a blessing and a curse at the same time! The Fiery Face could grant a blessing that contains a hidden curse or impose a curse that contains a hidden blessing. If it switched between doing this and granting/imposing conventional blessings and curses, people would find it hard to tell if they should pass or fail the riddle. 

Some cursed items have useful effects, but because of their curse you can't remove them. For example a barbarian might enjoy owning a Berserking Sword. Characters could be given large black hairy ears that look weird, but grant the hearing of a bat. Or someone could gain darkvision, but suffer light blindness.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> Yep. They look great. My only question is do they stack? i.e can the Fiery Face use its Masquerade as Fire ability to improve its Hide in Flames check?



I don't think these can stack because they affect different skill checks.  I do think they are kind of two different expressions of the same ability -- the ability of the Fiery Face to look like fire.



> Or how about something that is both a blessing and a curse at the same time! The Fiery Face could grant a blessing that contains a hidden curse or impose a curse that contains a hidden blessing. If it switched between doing this and granting/imposing conventional blessings and curses, people would find it hard to tell if they should pass or fail the riddle.
> 
> Some cursed items have useful effects, but because of their curse you can't remove them. For example a barbarian might enjoy owning a Berserking Sword. Characters could be given large black hairy ears that look weird, but grant the hearing of a bat. Or someone could gain darkvision, but suffer light blindness.




What I like about Shade's suggestion is that it is simple to keep track of.  We could put in a line that DMs are free to modify as desired, though.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

BigMac - while that is an interesting idea, I'm a bit smitten with the idea of them being evil, yet honorable.  Plus, I think they'd prefer that folks answer their riddles.

So...

Organization: Solitary or x (1 plus x jackals, jackalweres, hyenas, and gnolls in any combination)?

Did we want to give them summon nature's ally and/or a charm monster ability to account for these "minions"?

Skills: 48

Feats: 2

Environment: Any forests?

Treasure: None?

Advancement: 4-9 HD (Small)?

Fiery faces speak Common, Sylvan, and Ignan?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2008)

Hmm, maybe a conflagration?  1d8 jackals...

Skills: 6 ranks of Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Spot?

Feats: Dodge?, Flyby Attack?


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

That all sounds reasonable.  Maybe a few more Knowledge skills to draw upon for riddles?

Possibly swap Dodge for Skill Focus (Knowledge [nature])?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

Good idea on the Knowledge skills and Skill Focus.  I'd also be happy with dropping Intimidate (and even some of Listen & Spot) to free up a few ranks for Knowledge.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

In addition to nature, maybe history and local?  Or maybe geography?  Arcana?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

Let's go with history and local and then see if we want to scrounge ranks from somewhere else. 

For the riddling curse, should characters be allowed an (appropriate) Knowledge skill check to come up with the answer?  Maybe DC = FF's Knowledge check plus a racial bonus?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Good idea.

Updated.

CR 2?

Did we want to give them summon nature's ally and/or a charm monster ability to account for these "minions"?

Does the flavor text look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't think they need charms or SNA. 

CR 3. They're about as hard as a shadow.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Maybe a charm monster ability that only works on jackal-like and hyena-like creatures?

Flavor looks good.

For Hide in Flames, make it a +8 (or even +12) bonus on Hide checks.

Edit: I seem to have cross-posted with demiurge, and I guess we lean different ways on the charming.  I'm happy to let Shade decide.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

I can see the gnolls and jackalweres following willingly, but a charm animal SLA might be appropriate to explain the jackals and hyenas.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Sounds fair to me!


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

Spell-Like Abilities: 5/day—charm animal (DC 14). Caster level 6th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

...or...

Mass Charm Animal (Sp):  Once per day, a fiery face can charm a number of animals whose combined HD do not exceed twice its HD.  This otherwise functions as mass charm person (Will DC 18 negates).   Caster level 6th.

I went with CL 6th so they'd follow the fiery face for 6 hours.  3 hours just seemed too short.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

I think I like the mass charm animal.  Do we want to limit it to jackals and hyenas?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 9, 2008)

I don't think so, but we should say it prefers the company of jackals and hyenas.


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## Big Mac (Aug 11, 2008)

Shade said:


> BigMac - while that is an interesting idea, I'm a bit smitten with the idea of them being evil, yet honorable.  Plus, I think they'd prefer that folks answer their riddles.




Fair enough. We can recycle that idea for something else.



Shade said:


> Fiery faces speak Common, Sylvan, and Ignan?




I think they should have a spell-like ability that lets them speak other languages. That will let them gain more victims.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> I think they should have a spell-like ability that lets them speak other languages. That will let them gain more victims.




Yeah, that's reasonable.  Many creatures have tongues.

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

This looks pretty good.  Are we agreed that it's done?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2008)

I think so.


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## Shade (Sep 5, 2008)

*Lyrannikin (Black Treant)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any forest
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Photosynthesis
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: Q (X5)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 7-12
THACO: 13 (7-8 HD) 11 (9-10 HD) 9 (11-12 HD) 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ ATTACK: Variable
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Never surprised
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (13'-18')
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALLUE: 2,000 + 1,000 per HD above 7 HD

Lyrannikin are treants that have become evil. This happens in a variety of ways: by magical change; the heart of a treant becoming rotted by blight; or in the case of very ancient treants, a festering hatred of those who destroy old forests, so that the treant becomes consumed by a desire for revenge that becomes indiscriminate. Lyrannikin may be physically indistinguishable from treants, but some 30% of them show obvious signs of severe blight and have rotting bark, decaying and hanging branches, and the like.

Combat: Lyrannikin attack with two gnarled, branchlike arms that are very powerful and inflict severe blows. Younger lyrannikin (10% of encounters) have 7-8 HD and inflict 2-16 points of damage per blow. Middle-aged lyrannikin (30% of encounters) have 9-10 HD and inflict 3-18 points of damage per blow. Elder lyrannikin (60% of encounters) have 11-12 HD and inflict 4-24 points of damage per blow. Blighted specimens inflict -1 point of damage per die.

Like treants, lyrannikin have a low AC due to their very tough bark. Fire-based attacks against lyrannikin (e.g., a flame blade) are made at +4, with a +1 damage bonus, and lyrannikin save versus fire-based spell attacks at -4. However, lyrannikin that are blighted (20% of younger, 30% of middle-aged, and 50% of elder) do not suffer these penalties against fire-based attacks, due to the wetness of their rotted tissue.

Unlike treants, lyrannikin cannot animate trees. Nonblighted lyrannikin can inflict structural damage as treants do.

Habitat/Society: Lyrannikin are solitary, vicious killers of intruders into their domains. They have lost their link with nature, and thus lost their ability to remain undetected in woodlands and forests also. Lyrannikin hate fire-using creatures and those who enter woodland with axe or saw. They have little treasure and have no notion of the value of gold, gems, and suchlike.

Ecology: All lyrannikin have some ability to photosynthesize as necessary to survive, but severely blighted specimens have sharply reduced photosynthetic ability and attempt to extran extra nutrition through their roots, often by drenching them in the blood of forest creatures. Lyrannikin sleep less than most treants, their anger and hatred driving them in a way quite alien to their good-aligned relatives. They do not reproduce.

Lyrannikin that are non-blighted have the same life span as treants; blighted specimens have shortened, but still considerable, lifespans (and are often old when they develop blight, anyway). Elder lyrannikin usually succumb to rot, blight, destruction by those who come to weed the evil presence out of the woods, or some similar cause. Treants will often try to subdue a lyrannikin or cure its blight, especially with very young or elder specimens.

It seems highly likely that the Scarlet Brotherhood has captured treants and is experimenting with the use of blights that will turn the treants to evil while not affecting their health or combat ability (no reductions to damage dice rolls). These specially-bred lyrannikin may well be being placed within the Menowood to attack the defenders of Sunndi who spy in the eastern margin of that wood; there have been several reports of young lyrannikin (an unusual occurrence) from that wood during the years of the Greyhawk Wars.

Originally appeared in From the Ashes (1992).


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## Shade (Sep 5, 2008)

*Lyrannikin (Black Treant)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any forest
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Photosynthesis
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: Q (X5)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 7-12
THACO: 13 (7-8 HD) 11 (9-10 HD) 9 (11-12 HD) 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ ATTACK: Variable
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Never surprised
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (13'-18')
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALLUE: 2,000 + 1,000 per HD above 7 HD

Lyrannikin are treants that have become evil. This happens in a variety of ways: by magical change; the heart of a treant becoming rotted by blight; or in the case of very ancient treants, a festering hatred of those who destroy old forests, so that the treant becomes consumed by a desire for revenge that becomes indiscriminate. Lyrannikin may be physically indistinguishable from treants, but some 30% of them show obvious signs of severe blight and have rotting bark, decaying and hanging branches, and the like.

Combat: Lyrannikin attack with two gnarled, branchlike arms that are very powerful and inflict severe blows. Younger lyrannikin (10% of encounters) have 7-8 HD and inflict 2-16 points of damage per blow. Middle-aged lyrannikin (30% of encounters) have 9-10 HD and inflict 3-18 points of damage per blow. Elder lyrannikin (60% of encounters) have 11-12 HD and inflict 4-24 points of damage per blow. Blighted specimens inflict -1 point of damage per die.

Like treants, lyrannikin have a low AC due to their very tough bark. Fire-based attacks against lyrannikin (e.g., a flame blade) are made at +4, with a +1 damage bonus, and lyrannikin save versus fire-based spell attacks at -4. However, lyrannikin that are blighted (20% of younger, 30% of middle-aged, and 50% of elder) do not suffer these penalties against fire-based attacks, due to the wetness of their rotted tissue.

Unlike treants, lyrannikin cannot animate trees. Nonblighted lyrannikin can inflict structural damage as treants do.

Habitat/Society: Lyrannikin are solitary, vicious killers of intruders into their domains. They have lost their link with nature, and thus lost their ability to remain undetected in woodlands and forests also. Lyrannikin hate fire-using creatures and those who enter woodland with axe or saw. They have little treasure and have no notion of the value of gold, gems, and suchlike.

Ecology: All lyrannikin have some ability to photosynthesize as necessary to survive, but severely blighted specimens have sharply reduced photosynthetic ability and attempt to extran extra nutrition through their roots, often by drenching them in the blood of forest creatures. Lyrannikin sleep less than most treants, their anger and hatred driving them in a way quite alien to their good-aligned relatives. They do not reproduce.

Lyrannikin that are non-blighted have the same life span as treants; blighted specimens have shortened, but still considerable, lifespans (and are often old when they develop blight, anyway). Elder lyrannikin usually succumb to rot, blight, destruction by those who come to weed the evil presence out of the woods, or some similar cause. Treants will often try to subdue a lyrannikin or cure its blight, especially with very young or elder specimens.

It seems highly likely that the Scarlet Brotherhood has captured treants and is experimenting with the use of blights that will turn the treants to evil while not affecting their health or combat ability (no reductions to damage dice rolls). These specially-bred lyrannikin may well be being placed within the Menowood to attack the defenders of Sunndi who spy in the eastern margin of that wood; there have been several reports of young lyrannikin (an unusual occurrence) from that wood during the years of the Greyhawk Wars.

Originally appeared in From the Ashes (1992).


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

I just compared these to the 2e treant, and they are nearly identical.   The only differences are alignment, number appearing, and the loss of animate trees.

The blighted ones are a little more different, and might give us more interesting material to work with:



> Lyrannikin may be physically indistinguishable from treants, but some 30% of them show obvious signs of severe blight and have rotting bark, decaying and hanging branches, and the like.






> Blighted specimens inflict -1 point of damage per die.






> However, lyrannikin that are blighted (20% of younger, 30% of middle-aged, and 50% of elder) do not suffer these penalties against fire-based attacks, due to the wetness of their rotted tissue.






> Nonblighted lyrannikin can inflict structural damage as treants do.






> All lyrannikin have some ability to photosynthesize as necessary to survive, but severely blighted specimens have sharply reduced photosynthetic ability and attempt to extran extra nutrition through their roots, often by drenching them in the blood of forest creatures.






> Lyrannikin that are non-blighted have the same life span as treants; blighted specimens have shortened, but still considerable, lifespans (and are often old when they develop blight, anyway).




I think the best way to proceed is to simply copy the treant stats and make the minor changes, then create the blighted lyrannikin as a variant.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

I think the unblighted ones are so close to treants that we should make them the variant, honestly.  Just state that they use the treant stats with appropriate small changes.  

We might also want to change the blighted lyrannikin abilities.  Decrease Con, increase Str maybe?


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Good idea.

So, -2 Str and -4 Con?

Remove the treant's vulnerability to fire?

Remove the treant's Double Damage against Objects?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Sounds about right.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> They have little treasure and have no notion of the value of gold, gems, and suchlike.




Half standard?  Or maybe no coins; no goods; half items?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

I like your second suggestion.  Are these done otherwise?  They seem pretty simple to me.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

Updated.

I added the variant section and an "in Greyhawk" bit.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Looks good to me!


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

*Iguana, Giant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate and subtropical/forests
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 6+2
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallows whole
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (8'-10' long)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALLUE: 420

The giant iguana is a large, omnivorous reptile found in wilderness forests.

This large lizard looks just like a normal iguana, except that it is eight to ten feet long in the body with a long, thin tail ten to 15 feet long. It is green and black in color, and more or less spotted and barred. The neck and back bear a high, serrated crest, and there is a large sac under its chin. The long-toed feet have strong talons, which are used for climbing and running but not combat.

Combat: The giant iguana attacks only if cornered or hungry. It can stand in any position unmoving for great lengths of time.  Even its breathing is not noticeable. Its coloration provides camouflage in darkened undergrowth, where it causes a -3 penalty to opponents’ surprise rolls. Any attacks to its tail cause pain, but inflict no damage on the lizard. The tail can even be severed clean off. This is unpleasant for the iguana, but it grows a new one at the rate of a foot a month.

The lizards wide mouth inflicts only 2d4 points of damage because it has only a few teeth. On a natural roll of 20 it can swallow any man-sized creature whole. A 19 or 20 enables it to swallow any smaller sized creature, such as a dwarf or halfling. The iguana always goes for the smallest creature in a group. Once a meal is swallowed, it turns and runs away. It can swallow only one creature per week, unless they are small animals.

Any creature swallowed has to get out before it suffocates (for a character this is a number of rounds equal to 1/3 Constitution, rounded up). The stomach lining is the same Armor Class as the outer skin, but only small motions can be made in such tight quarters. Any edged or pointed weapon under a foot in length can be used normally; the attack roll is used to determine if the arm can be moved to attack. Blunt weapons are useless and all other weapons cause only 1 point of damage per successful attack.

Habitat/Society: Giant iguanas are solitary hunters, but they gather in groups for sunning or to find a mate. Such groups are rarely dangerous, and there is only a 1 in 6 chance of an unprovoked attack. They prefer to hunt in the darkened undergrowth of a forest and then bask in the sun to digest. Even standing in the open under bright sunlight, it is possible to not notice the completely immobile iguana.

Unlike their smaller, herbivorous cousins, giant iguanas eat both meat and plants. They prefer insects to mammals, although they hunt both, and prefer grasses to bushes or tree leaves. They do not need to eat very often, only once every other day.

The giant iguana can climb any slope up to 60 degrees that has reasonable grip at normal speed. It can even climb large trees if necessary. Unlike the smaller variety, the giant iguana cannot leap.

Ecology: Iguana meat is tender and tasty to most humanoid creatures. Some plainsmen even keep small herds, although they are much more trouble than placid cows and sheep.  Fences and even rock walls are not much of an obstacle to them, and they are much more dangerous than cows.

The giant iguana can rarely be domesticated, or used as a pack animal. However, an ingundi (see next page) can ride them with little trouble. The ingundi do not use a saddle; they just push the spines of the iguana‘s back flat and sit on them. This would be uncomfortable to anything with a tender hide.

Homed Iguana
The giant homed iguana is just like the regular giant iguana, except for the three two-foot-long horns on its head. It does not attack with these horns, but it can move them to intercept a rush or charge. Interception requires a successful attack roll; the horns cause 3d6 points of damage to the charging enemy. This occurs just before the attack, even if the homed iguana loses the initiative roll. If it attempts to intercept the charge, that is its only attack that round.

Other Species
There are many different species of giant iguana. They may look quite different, but all have basically the same statistics. They have different coloration, smaller tails, independently moving eyes, different numbers of toes on the foot etc. Despite these differences, they still have the same Hit Dice, Armor Class, THACO, etc.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Greyhawk Appendix (1990).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

OK, seems pretty straightforward. Improved grab + swallow whole. Real iguanas have two things these guys don't: a tail lashing attack (that can break the skin on a human even at their size) and a poisonous bite. Real iguanas aren't poisonous enough to do more than give you a rash, but these guys are giant and omnivorous...


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> OK, seems pretty straightforward. Improved grab + swallow whole. Real iguanas have two things these guys don't: a tail lashing attack (that can break the skin on a human even at their size) and a poisonous bite. Real iguanas aren't poisonous enough to do more than give you a rash, but these guys are giant and omnivorous...



Those abilities sound so fun, we just have to add them! 

The horned variety sounds fun, too.  Sounds like they should have an ability to set their horns vs a charge.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

freyar said:


> Those abilities sound so fun, we just have to add them!
> 
> The horned variety sounds fun, too.  Sounds like they should have an ability to set their horns vs a charge.




Agreed on all that.

Ability scores of other lizards their size:

Footpad Lizard: Str 25, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
Pack Lizard: Str 25, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
Quicksilver Lizard: Str 19, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Riding Lizard: Str 19, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Inix: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Crodlu: Str 19, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Heavy Crodlu: Str 21, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 12


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

How about Str 19, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10?  I guess we could drop Cha arbitarily, since it's not going to be important for these.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I borrowed the tail sweep from the megalania, but we can alter that if you guys wish.



> The giant iguana can climb any slope up to 60 degrees that has reasonable grip at normal speed. It can even climb large trees if necessary. Unlike the smaller variety, the giant iguana cannot leap.




Climb speed equal to land speed?

Do we need a swim speed?  Or save it for a marine iguana variant?

Suggestions for the poison?


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

I'm fine with the tail sweep, but we need to add a tail slap, too.   Maybe 1d6+Str?

Climb=base speed is good.  Why don't we give it a somewhat slower swim speed, like 20 ft?

Injury poison, 1d4 Con/1d4 Con?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

Agreed to climb speed, slower swim speed. The poison sounds alright to me, although maybe weaker still. 1 Con/1d4 Con? The DC is going to be pretty good, but we don't want poison to be the main attraction of these guys.


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## freyar (Sep 13, 2008)

The lower poison damage is fine by me.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Updated.

Fill in the X's.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A giant iguana can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes x points of bludgeoning damage and x points of acid damage per round from the iguana's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the interior (AC x). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

2d4+4 bludgeoning (like bite, but only Str, not 1-1/2 Str), 1d4 acid?  10 hp damage, AC 11.

For the horned iguana, how about this:

Readied vs Charge (Ex): Giant Horned Iguanas do not make standard melee attacks with their horns.  However, if a giant horned iguana is charged, it may make a single attack with its horns against the charger as an immediate action (as if it had readied against the charge).  This attack is made at the iguana's full attack bonus and deals 1d10+4 hp of piercing damage on a successful attack.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Looks good.  Let's call it "chargebreaker" to add a dash of flavor.  

One thing has been troubling me with these guys...the AC is too low.

Compare natural AC to other lizards:

Crodlu (L):  +5
Crodlu, Heavy (L):  +8
Inix (L): +7
Komodo dragon (M): +4
Footpad Lizard (L): +5
Pack Lizard (L): +5
Quicksilver Lizard (L): +3
Riding Lizard (L): +3

I see an iguana's skin closer to a komodo dragon, so wanna boost it to +4?


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Chargebreaker and natural ac +4 are good.  Boosting the natural armor to +4 changes the gizzard AC to 12.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Iguanas have excellent vision and are able to see shapes, shadows, color and movement at long distances. Iguanas use their eyes to navigate through crowded forests, as well as for finding food. They also use visual signals to communicate with members of the same species.






			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Green iguanas have excellent vision, enabling them to detect shapes and motions at long distances.[18] As Green iguanas have only a few Rod cells, they have poor vision in low-light conditions. At the same time, they have cells called “double Cone cells” that give them sharp color vision and enable them to see ultraviolet wavelengths.[18] This ability is highly useful when basking so the animal can ensure that it absorbs enough sunlight in the forms of UVA and UVB to produce Vitamin D.




Racial bonus on Spot checks?

No low-light vision?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Agile climbers, iguanas can fall up to 50 feet (15 m) and land unhurt (iguanas use their hind leg claws to "hook" leaves, branches, or anything in a "clasping" motion to break a fall).




Slow fall 50 feet like a monk?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> If the threat persists the Green iguana will lash with its tail, bite and use its claws in defense.[6] Wounded animals are more inclined to fight than uninjured ones.




Add claw attacks?

Skills: 9 (Climb +8, Swim +8)

Feats: 3

Environment: Temperate and warm forests?

Organization: Solitary?

Advancement: x


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Shade said:


> Racial bonus on Spot checks?
> 
> No low-light vision?
> 
> ...



Yes to all that.  Maybe weakish claws, like 1d4 or 1d6?



> Skills: 9 (Climb +8, Swim +8)
> 
> Feats: 3
> 
> ...




I'd say max Spot.  Maybe give it Alertness or SF (Spot), Stealthy, Multiattack?

Yes, yes, 7-12 HD (Large), 13-24 HD (Huge)?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Updated.



> Combat: The giant iguana attacks only if cornered or hungry. It can stand in any position unmoving for great lengths of time. Even its breathing is not noticeable. Its coloration provides camouflage in darkened undergrowth, where it causes a -3 penalty to opponents’ surprise rolls.






> They prefer to hunt in the darkened undergrowth of a forest and then bask in the sun to digest. Even standing in the open under bright sunlight, it is possible to not notice the completely immobile iguana.




+8 Hide bonus in forest terrain?  +8 Hide bonus when immobile in any terrain?  (And thus, +16 when immobile in forest terrain?)



> Habitat/Society: Giant iguanas are solitary hunters, but they gather in groups for sunning or to find a mate. Such groups are rarely dangerous, and there is only a 1 in 6 chance of an unprovoked attack.




OK, I guess it isn't Solitary.  

Organization:  Solitary, mated pair, or pack (2-6)?



> Any attacks to its tail cause pain, but inflict no damage on the lizard. The tail can even be severed clean off. This is unpleasant for the iguana, but it grows a new one at the rate of a foot a month.




Any mechanics needed for this, or just relegate it to flavor text?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Hide bonus and organization look good.  Let's leave the bit about tail as flavor.

Looks basically done.  CR 4?  500 lb?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2008)

I think slow fall is a bit ridiculous--iguanas can survive large falls because they're light and agile, whereas these guys are big and burly.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think slow fall is a bit ridiculous--iguanas can survive large falls because they're light and agile, whereas these guys are big and burly.



No biggy to me -- I'm happy to take it out if Shade is.

Hmmm.  Wonder what my wife would think if I decided I wanted a pet iguana.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm convinced.  Slow fall is gone.

Updated.

Anything else?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

Looks done to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2008)

I think it's finished!


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

*Ravenous*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: tropical jungle
FREQUENCY: very rare
ORGANIZATION: pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: any
DIET: living tissue
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil

NO. APPEARING: 2d6
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: see below
THAC0: see below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d3 + special
SPECIAL ATTACKS:. Constitution drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunity
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: M or see below
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 65

The ravenous are zombie-like creatures created by Meyanok's famine in the city-state of Tolanok. They appear to be normal humans or mundane snakes that move with a slight stiffness and look emaciated as if from starvation. Most of their minds are gone, and their only thought is of satisfying the hungering ache in their stomachs and bones.

Combat: Ravenous attack with their natural weapon nails for humans, bites or constriction for snakes. In addition to this damage, the touch of a ravenous draws vitality from the victim, resulting in a loss of one point of Constitution; this does not cause an adjustment in the victim's hit points due to a change in bonus hit points per level. A creature brought to 0 Constitution dies and rises as a ravenous within 24 hours unless the corpse is blessed or buried with a full meal. Only a human, humanoid, demihuman or a snake may be turned into a ravenous; a creature that rises as a ravenous has its original hit dice and THAC0; humans and demihumans become 1-HD ravenous. Lost Constitution is regained at a rate of 1 point per day in which the victim eats three full meals.

Like all undead, ravenous are immune to sleep, charm and hold spells. They are turned by clerics according to their hit dice. A ravenous can be distracted by throwing food to it normal rations are preferred to dried ones - or the use of spells such as create food and water or hero's feast.

Habitat/Society: Formerly the inhabitants of a small, prosperous city and its outlying farms, the ravenous still gather in groups as their living counterparts had. A group may be all human-like or it may include some snakes. They hunt in packs to more easily bring down their victims, which are not eaten but drained of their life-giving properties. They have no concern for treasure.

Ecology: Ravenous take from their environment and give nothing back to it. When destroyed, their bodies collapse into dust and bone fragments. Ravenous can draw sustenance from plant life, but they quickly deplete their environment of this resource and therefore live in barren areas with dead and withered vegetation.

Originally appeared in Scarlet Brotherhood (1999).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2008)

Humans or snakes? That screams template.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

I'd agree.

Also, I think I'd rather go with normal Con damage as opposed to "Con damage that does not reduce hp."  I'm fine with putting on a proviso that the Con damage only returns when regular meals are eaten, though.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

Sounds good.



> INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)




-4 Int?



> Most of their minds are gone, and their only thought is of satisfying the hungering ache in their stomachs and bones.






> Combat: Ravenous attack with their natural weapon nails for humans, bites or constriction for snakes.




Humanoids gain claw attacks; snakes gain no additional natural attacks?



> In addition to this damage, the touch of a ravenous draws vitality from the victim, resulting in a loss of one point of Constitution; this does not cause an adjustment in the victim's hit points due to a change in bonus hit points per level.




As freyar mentioned above, reverse to normal Con damage that cannot be removed until eating.



> A creature brought to 0 Constitution dies and rises as a ravenous within 24 hours unless the corpse is blessed or buried with a full meal.




Sounds like create spawn.



> Only a human, humanoid, demihuman or a snake may be turned into a ravenous; a creature that rises as a ravenous has its original hit dice and THAC0; humans and demihumans become 1-HD ravenous.




Isn't that contradictory?  I'd say HD are unchanged.



> A ravenous can be distracted by throwing food to it normal rations are preferred to dried ones - or the use of spells such as create food and water or hero's feast.




We could modify this from the ravenous undead template in Dragon #319...

Need to Feed (Ex): A ravenous creature is driven by a consuming hunger, not a lust for battle. Whenever it slays a living opponent, the ravenous undead must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or immediately stop to eat its kill. When eating, a ravenous creature can do nothing else. It loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and does not make attacks of opportunity.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

All good suggestions.  I'd suggest that HD revert to racial HD (remove HD due to class levels), like skeleton or zombie, as another alternative.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2008)

I think we should allow this template apply to all humanoids and animals, not just snakes.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think we should allow this template apply to all humanoids and animals, not just snakes.



Agreed.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

freyar said:


> All good suggestions.  I'd suggest that HD revert to racial HD (remove HD due to class levels), like skeleton or zombie, as another alternative.




Added to Homebrews without this, but I'm willing to change it if others prefer this approach.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 18, 2008)

Reversion to racial HD sounds promising


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2008)

I do think I like just going with racial HD (min 1) better.

I'd like to revist Need to Feed, given


> A ravenous can be distracted by throwing food to it normal rations are preferred to dried ones - or the use of spells such as create food and water or hero's feast.
> ...
> They hunt in packs to more easily bring down their victims, which are not eaten but drained of their life-giving properties. They have no concern for treasure.



How about this?

Need to Feed (Ex): A ravenous is driven by a consuming hunger. Whenever it can see or smell food, the ravenous must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or immediately stop to eat that food. If the food is dried or salted, such as trail rations, the ravenous has a +2 bonus on the save.  When eating, a ravenous can do nothing else. It loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and does not make attacks of opportunity.  Strangely, ravenous do not consider their kills to be food.

Anyway, no treasure, CR +1, warm forests, always NE, and advancement as base creature sound right (though humanoids lose class advancement, if we go with the racial HD only).


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## Echohawk (Oct 18, 2008)

Just a note that there is already a "Ravenous" template in Dragon #319/_Dragon Compendium, Volume 1_, so this template might need a slightly name change to avoid confusion.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Just a note that there is already a "Ravenous" template in Dragon #319/_Dragon Compendium, Volume 1_, so this template might need a slightly name change to avoid confusion.




Good point.  At first, I thought they were one and the same, but they differ enough to warrant conversion.  Hmmm..."famished creature" or "voracious creature" for this template?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Voracious sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Do these need anything besides LA and a sample?


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

freyar said:


> Do these need anything besides LA and a sample?




Lightly-flavored text with an italicized description appetizer.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Updated with flavor text and LA +2.

How about a human commoner and a Small viper for sample creatures?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

You beat me to the flavor text!  Looks good.

I would suggest the same thing for the samples.  One question about the template: since we're only keeping racial HD, should we say that the templated creature loses any SAs or SQs that come from class abilities?


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

freyar said:


> You beat me to the flavor text!  Looks good.
> 
> I would suggest the same thing for the samples.  One question about the template: since we're only keeping racial HD, should we say that the templated creature loses any SAs or SQs that come from class abilities?




Good idea.

Voracious 1st-level Human Commoner
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 1d12 (6 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+3 studded leather, +1 light shield), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+0
Attack: Quarterstaff +0 melee (1d8+1/19–20) or claw +0 melee (1d4 plus 1 Con)
Full Attack: Quarterstaff +0 melee (1d8+1/19–20) and claw -5 melee (1d4 plus 1 Con) or 2 claws +0 melee (1d4 plus 1 Con)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Constitution damage, create spawn
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., need to feed
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +0, Will –1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 11, Con —, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 8
Skills: Handle Animal +3, Profession (farmer) +3, Ride +4
Feats: 2
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or pack (2-12)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: +0

The human commoner presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

Voracious Small Viper 
Small Undead (Augmented Animal)
Hit Dice: Hit Dice: 1d12 (6 hp)
Initiative: +7 
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft. 
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14 
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–6 
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d2–2 plus poison plus 1 Con) 
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d2–2 plus poison plus 1 Con) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Constitution damage, create spawn, poison 
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., need to feed, scent 
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1 
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2 
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +11, Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +6 
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse (B) 
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or pack (2-12)
Challenge Rating: 2 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: — 
Level Adjustment: — 

Poison (Ex): Bite, Fort DC 10, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  I guess these are pretty well done.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

I gotta say, it's looking doneish


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

*Elevated Ghoul*
The elevated ghoul has 13 Hit Dice and inflicts extra damage with each claw attack. In addition, any human, humanoid, or demihuman creature it touches must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation with a -4 penalty or be paralyzed for 24 hours. Characters slain by an elevated ghoul become standard ghouls thirty minutes after death unless a cleric casts bless on their remains. (Note that elves are vulnerable to the paralysis effect, but do not become ghouls after death.) The elevated ghoul has 20% magic resistance and is immune to cold-based attacks, sleep, charm, hold, and other mind-affecting spells, as well as weapons below +2 enchantment. Its amulet of repudiation renders it immune to clerical turning; otherwise it would turn as "Special." A protection from evil spell keeps the creature at bay for 1 round.

Elevated ghoul: AC -1; MV 9; HD 13; hp 85; THACO 7; #AT 3 (claw/claw/bite); Dmg ld4+4/ld4+4/2d4+8; SA paralyzation; SD +2 or better weapon to hit, regenerate 1 point per round, spell immunities; SW protection from evil; MR 20%; SZ M (6’ tall); ML fearless (20); AL N; XP 4,000.

Special Abilities: slain victims become standard ghouls in thirty minutes unless blessed; SA-touch paralyzes humans, humanoids, and demihumans (including elves) for 24 hours (save vs. paralyzation with a -4 penalty to avoid); SD-immune to cold-based attacks, sleep, charm, hold, and other mind-affecting spells; +2 or better weapon to hit; SW-protection from evil keeps ghoul at bay for 1 round; turns as "special" without an amulet of repudiation.

Special Equipment: amulet of repudiation.

Originally appeared in Return to White Plume Mountain (1999).


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

I'd like to compare these to abyssal ghouls, but mostly we should beef up normal ghouls, I guess.  

It has a pretty nasty paralysis!


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

Raising a ghoul to 13 HD yields...

Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 13d12 (84 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+7
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+1 plus paralysis)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+1 plus paralysis) and 2 claws +4 melee (1d3 plus paralysis)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Ghoul fever, paralysis
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits, +2 turn resistance
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +10
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con —, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12
Skills: Balance +6, Climb +5, Hide +6, Jump +5, Move Silently +6, Spot +7, 55 more ranks
Feats: Multiattack, 4 more
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, gang (2–4), or pack (7–12)
Challenge Rating: 3+
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

AC needs to increase to 21.

Increase bite damage to 2d4 and claws to 1d4, like the original writeup, or by one die to 1d8/1d4?

Increase Str to account for +8 damage bonus for bite, +4 for claws (Str 26-27)?

"Turns as special" usually equals +4 or better turn resistance.

Fast healing 1?   DR 10/magic?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

All of your suggestions sound pretty good!


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

I'm not sure about fast healing, but it needs SR.

For advancement purposes, I like 1d8 damage.  Also, the average is slightly less than 2d4, but the high rolls are more common.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure about fast healing, but it needs SR.




Here's why...

Elevated ghoul: AC -1; MV 9; HD 13; hp 85; THACO 7; #AT 3 (claw/claw/bite); Dmg ld4+4/ld4+4/2d4+8; SA paralyzation; SD +2 or better weapon to hit, *regenerate 1 point per round*, spell immunities; SW protection from evil; MR 20%; SZ M (6’ tall); ML fearless (20); AL N; XP 4,000.


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

Oops, missed that in there.

In all, this is looking pretty good.  Do we want to write up an "amulet of repudiation" to go with it?


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

The disease and paralysis will need to be modified, as they are still just standard ghoul writeups.

AC is 7 better than a ghoul.  Shall we increase Dex as well as natural armor?

How about mental ability scores?  I think Cha should be boosted at the very least.



freyar said:


> In all, this is looking pretty good.  Do we want to write up an "amulet of repudiation" to go with it?




We can, although I don't know if it is necessary.  It seems more like an add-on for the individual encounter, rather than something tied to the creature.  But if you'd like to, just for fun, why not!


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

Increase Dex, increase Cha. For extra nastiness, we could make their paralysis contagious, as per the Contagious Paralysis feat from Libris Mortis. Anyone who touches a paralyzed victim has to make a save or be paralyzed themselves!


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Ooh...I like it!

Add 6 to Dex and +4 natural armor to achieve the 7 points of AC we need?

Boost Cha to 18 (or even 20)?


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

Go with Cha 20.  And I like the contagious idea.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Updated.



> In addition, any human, humanoid, or demihuman creature it touches must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation with a -4 penalty or be paralyzed for 24 hours.




Do we want to raise it to 24 hours?



> Characters slain by an elevated ghoul become standard ghouls thirty minutes after death unless a cleric casts bless on their remains.




Do we want to make the incubation period faster, as well as add the 30 minutes bit?



> (Note that elves are vulnerable to the paralysis effect, but do not become ghouls after death.)




Modify paralysis to no longer exclude elves?  What about the becoming ghouls bit?  Normal ghouls can "turn" elves into ghouls.



> A protection from evil spell keeps the creature at bay for 1 round.




Do we need to address that?



> AL N




That's odd, since ghouls are normally "always chaotic evil".  I think I'd still prefer the latter, or maybe reduce it to "usually".


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

Make them always chaotic evil, like other ghouls. Their paralysis affects elves. 

Two thoughts on the making of ghouls. We could drop ghoul fever for create spawn, or we could have augmented ghoul fever--incubation one minute, does damage every hour, can only be removed with a remove curse or break enchantment, like mummy rot.


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2008)

Let's say that their paralysis affects even creatures normally immune to paralysis (including elves).

How did normal 2e ghouls create new ghouls -- a disease, or something like create spawn?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

From the 2e Monstrous Compendium:
"Any human or demi-human (except elves) killed by a ghoulish attack will become a ghoul unless blessed (or blessed and then resurrected). Obviously, this is also avoided if the victim is devoured by the ghouls"


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2008)

Let's go with the augmented ghoul fever, then.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

Supernatural disease = great idea!

Updated.

Skills: 80
Ghouls and ghasts have Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Spot

Feats: Multiattack, 4 more


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Ability Focus (contagious paralysis), Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

Oh, and I just noticed. Its Dex is listed as still being 15, even though it has a +5 Dex bonus to AC.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

Updated.

Balance 10, Climb 10, Hide 14, Jump 10, Move Silently 14, Spot 10, Tumble 10?

Challenge Rating: 9?  (They are slightly deadlier than a mohrg at CR 8)

Advancement: 14-26 HD (Medium)?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

All of those sound pretty good.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

Updated.

An elevated ghoul can be created by an 18th-level or higher spellcaster using _create undead_ (like a mohrg)?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

Agreed. 

Alternatively, a limited wish cast on a ghoul or a ghast elevates it, but breaks the caster's control (if any) over the undead?


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

I like both creation alternatives, so let's keep both.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

That it for these?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

I think we're done.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

Here's a new one to keep you guys busy.  

*Mold Wyrm *
This creature is a fungal behemoth created by leakage from the Basin of Boundless Life. It has both a passive and an active form.

In its passive state, the mold wyrm spreads out over a surface area roughly 60 feet in diameter, appearing as a continuous layer of grayish, scaly mold on the floor, walls, and ceiling of a tunnel or cavern. The resting mold wyrm simply covers up any nonambulatory natural molds and fungi already growing in the area it occupies. In this state, it always keeps a pile of jagged stones (usually obsidian) resembling a cairn somewhere on its thinly spread body.

When aroused by movement or vibration within its chamber, the fungus layer liquefies, flowing into a huge animate shape over the course of a single round. As it activates, it incorporates the jagged obsidian shards into its mouth to serve as teeth, placing them in several circular rows. In its fully active state, the mold wyrm appears as a mold-covered, gray-scaled worm with a huge, toothy maw, but no eyes and other sensory apparatus.
If the mold wyrm's bite attack exceeds the required "to hit" score by 4 or more against a size M or smaller target, the latter must make a successful saving throw vs. death magic or be swallowed whole. A swallowed victim suffers the effects of the spore cough (see below) every round while inside the mold wyrm (no saving throw). Those victims not immediately overcome may attempt to cut their way out with small slashing or piercing weapons such as daggers. Anyone who delivers 20 points of damage in this manner against the wyrm's AC 9 interior creates a slit large enough to permit escape at the beginning of the next round. Though the wyrm cannot swallow size L or larger creatures, this attack inflicts double normal damage against them.

Three times per day, the mold wyrm can cough forth a cloud of greenish-gray spores. Any nonvegetable creature within a 30 x 30 foot area must make a successful saving throw vs. death magic or cough for ld4+2 rounds, suffering ld6 points of damage per round and incurring a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and proficiency checks until the coughing stops. A slow, poison, neutralize poison, or cure disease applied during this time dispels the coughing fit and prevents the infection that would (otherwise follow. Victims who stop coughing without benefit of healing magic have incorporated the mold wyrm spores into their own bodies. This infection suspends all natural healing and causes victims to become ravenous. If they do not eat double their normal rations each day, they begin to waste away, losing 10% of their original hit points each day. Though slow poison, neutralize poison, or cure disease can remove the affliction instantly, infected characters become very protective of the "warmth" they feel growing within, refusing all magical healing and escaping at the earliest opportunity from any companions who try to cure them. After ld6+6 days of infection, the victim's skin sloughs away, revealing a gelatinous mass of grayish mold that has replaced his or her internal organs. This goo splashes down like a column of viscous water to form a scaly mold layer covering a 30-foot-diameter area. The victim is now a brand-new mold wyrm with one-fourth of such a creature's normal Hit Dice. The new wyrm must rest for 8 hours before it can assume its active form.

Even with a successful saving throw against the spore cough, any creature within the spore cloud's area of effect breathes in a whiff of the disruptive spores and coughs violently, suffering the same damage and action penalty as those who failed their saving throws, but for only 1 round. They do not, however, become infected with spores. Vegetable- and fungus-based creatures (such as fungus hulks) that fail their saving throws suffer 1d10 points of damage from invading spores, but no infection.

Because of the trace of pure life-principle in the mold wyrm's body, it suffers only 50% of normal damage from physical attacks (including those of magic weapons) and can regenerate all lost hit points with 4 hours of rest in its passive state. The creature also has 10% magic resistance and is immune to sleep, charm, hold, and other mind-affecting spells.

Mold wyrms cannot remain active all the time, however. The creature must spend 8 out of every 24 hours resting in its passive state or begin losing 20% of its original hit points per hour. It can arrest this hit point loss at any time by resuming its passive state. While passive or shifting between states, the mold wyrm suffers double normal damage from damage-producing area effect spells. Attacks of any sort cause the creature to resume its active state immediately, regardless of the consequences.

*Mold wyrm:* AC 6; MV 9, burrow 9; HD 12, hp 60; THAC0 9; #AT 1 (bite); Dmg 4d4+4; SA swallow whole, spore cough; SD immunities, regeneration; SW rest, area effect spells; MR 10%; SZ G (25' long, 10' in diameter); ML steady (12); Int semi (4); AL N; XP 6,000.
Special Abilities: SA-swallows opponent whole with bite attack 4 or more greater than score needed to hit (save vs. death magic to avoid, 20 points of slashing or piercing damage against AC 9 to escape, spore cough automatically affects swallowed victims); spore cough (3/day) inflicts ld6 points of damage/round, penalizes attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and proficiency checks by -2 for ld4+2 rounds, and infects victim with spores (save vs. death magic drops duration to 1 round and prevents infection, infection negates natural healing and turns victim into quarter-strength mold wyrm in ld6+6 days if not cured, slow poison, neutralize poison, or cure disease removes infection); SD-half normal damage from physical attacks; immune to sleep, charm, hold, and other mind-affecting spells; regenerates all damage after 4 hours in passive state; SW-must rest 8 out of every 24 hours or lose 20% of original hit points/hour; double damage from damage producing area effect spells while passive or shifting states.

Originally appeared in Return to White Plume Mountain.


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2008)

Plant?  Or I could see magical beast or aberration or even ooze (though a weird one).  I'd lean toward plant, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm torn between plant and aberration with some plant qualities.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2008)

I'm leaning toward plant as well.  It reminds me a bit of a vine horror or genius loci.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

Let's do a plant, then.  Huge, I guess?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2008)

I might be willing to go up to Gargantuan.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

The frost worm is Huge and 40 ft long, 5 feet wide vs this thing at 25 ft long, 10 ft wide.  So why not start at Huge and advance to Gargantuan or even Colossal?


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2008)

That sounds reasonable.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2008)

Ok, some abilities, then.  How about Str 32, Dex 11, Con 26, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 7?  Just sort of guessing here...


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 24, 2008)

The mold spore being Con-based? Makes sense. Those ability scores are pretty good. Might raise Cha a bit. They're scary.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2008)

Yeah, I was thinking Con-based for the spores.  I'd be ok with bumping Cha to 11, too.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2008)

Swallow whole in the original text is a little unusual for 3e; want to go with the usual Improved Grab?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

Yeah, improved grab + swallow whole. Those swallowing mechanics are pretty standard for 2e. Do we want to replace the acid damage with save or mold spores once swallowed?


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah, improved grab + swallow whole. Those swallowing mechanics are pretty standard for 2e. Do we want to replace the acid damage with save or mold spores once swallowed?



Excellent idea!  

Speaking of the mold spores, should we make those be a coughing effect plus a disease?


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

Updated, using the tendriculos's abilities as a framework.

Let's get working on the spores/spore cough.

We may be able to use the mu spore's similarly-named ability for inspiration...

Spore Cough (Su):  Once every 1d4 rounds a mu spore can release a cloud of burrowing spores. This spore cough is treated as a 100-foot-cone breath weapon. The burrowing spores deal 20d8 points of damage to all creatures and structures in the area, or half damage to any creatures that make a Reflex save (DC 36). The DC is Charisma-based. 

The closest thing I could find to coughing effects are the effects of smoke...

"A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage."


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Smoke, or dust of choking and coughing from the cursed magic items... they have similar mechanical effects.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

Nice find.  Here's the relevant bit...

Dust of Sneezing and Choking: This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Oh man, those mechanics aren't the same at all! The dust of... seems way too deadly, especially with the create spawn. We'd have multiplicative mold spores all over the map.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

> Three times per day, the mold wyrm can cough forth a cloud of greenish-gray spores. Any nonvegetable creature within a 30 x 30 foot area must make a successful saving throw vs. death magic or cough for ld4+2 rounds, suffering ld6 points of damage per round and incurring a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and proficiency checks until the coughing stops. A slow, poison, neutralize poison, or cure disease applied during this time dispels the coughing fit and prevents the infection that would (otherwise follow. Victims who stop coughing without benefit of healing magic have incorporated the mold wyrm spores into their own bodies. This infection suspends all natural healing and causes victims to become ravenous. If they do not eat double their normal rations each day, they begin to waste away, losing 10% of their original hit points each day. Though slow poison, neutralize poison, or cure disease can remove the affliction instantly, infected characters become very protective of the "warmth" they feel growing within, refusing all magical healing and escaping at the earliest opportunity from any companions who try to cure them. After ld6+6 days of infection, the victim's skin sloughs away, revealing a gelatinous mass of grayish mold that has replaced his or her internal organs. This goo splashes down like a column of viscous water to form a scaly mold layer covering a 30-foot-diameter area. The victim is now a brand-new mold wyrm with one-fourth of such a creature's normal Hit Dice. The new wyrm must rest for 8 hours before it can assume its active form.
> 
> Even with a successful saving throw against the spore cough, any creature within the spore cloud's area of effect breathes in a whiff of the disruptive spores and coughs violently, suffering the same damage and action penalty as those who failed their saving throws, but for only 1 round. They do not, however, become infected with spores. Vegetable- and fungus-based creatures (such as fungus hulks) that fail their saving throws suffer 1d10 points of damage from invading spores, but no infection.




Here's a rough start...

Spore Cough (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds a mold wyrm can release a cloud of greenish-gray spores. This spore cough is treated as a 30-foot-cone breath weapon.  Creatures in the area must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 or more consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage each round.  A character who chokes for 6 consecutive rounds stops choking as the spores have been incorporated into its body.   At this point, the victim has become infected and...The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

We should specify what "spends that round coughing and choking" entails. Can take no actions? Is nauseated? If the DC is Con based, it should be considerably more than 15.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

I'd like to say staggered, except that has a standard cause.  Con-based would make sense, though this might be one of those standardized DCs.

I can't say I like the 6 rounds coughing mechanic for infection, though I guess it could work.  In any event, I think this infection should progress basically like a disease (maybe healing only magically?), probably doing Con damage and causing metamorphosis into a mold wyrm on death.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> We should specify what "spends that round coughing and choking" entails. Can take no actions? Is nauseated? If the DC is Con based, it should be considerably more than 15.




I borrowed that from smoke effects, and I'm assuming "take no actions", but we could state that explicitly.  Good point on the DC.



freyar said:


> I'd like to say staggered, except that has a standard cause.  Con-based would make sense, though this might be one of those standardized DCs.




Nah, lets avoid standardized DCs.  I lifted that from the smoke mechanics, which would make sense with a static DC, but I loathe static DCs for creature and character powers.



freyar said:


> I can't say I like the 6 rounds coughing mechanic for infection, though I guess it could work.  In any event, I think this infection should progress basically like a disease (maybe healing only magically?), probably doing Con damage and causing metamorphosis into a mold wyrm on death.  What do you think?




I could see that.  We should look at how they treat it for similar effects, like the red slaad's implantation.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

Let's just say "takes no actions" for the coughing.  Any other ideas for the infection?  I guess I'd like to make it just a second save, independent of how many rounds you cough.  What do you guys think?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

I agree that infection with spores should be independent of rounds coughing.


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

How about this?

Spore Cough (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds a mold wyrm can release a cloud of greenish-gray spores. This spore cough is treated as a 30-foot-cone breath weapon. Creatures in the area must make a Fortitude save each round for 4 rounds (DC X, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing (they can take no actions, though they defend themselves normall). A character who chokes for 2 or more consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage each round. In addition, any creature within the area must make a single DC X Fortitude save or contract spore disease (see below).  The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Spore disease (Su): Inhaled DC X, incubation 1 minute, 1d6 Con.  Victims that die from spore disease transform into mold wyrms upon their death.  This is a supernatural disease; successful saves do not allow the character to recover. Only magical healing can save the character.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

I like it, except for the name "Spore disease".  Any ideas for something more flavorful?   Maybe "x moldering", although I have no good idea for the x.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 6, 2008)

Fungal moldering? Spore blight? Lung rot? The greening? Ascomytis?


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2008)

Yeah, I totally drew a blank on the name.  I like spore blight or lung rot.  Or we could turn things around and go with wyrm moldering if you like.  Dunno.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

I think "spore blight" captures it best, although some of those other names are fun!

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2008)

> Because of the trace of pure life-principle in the mold wyrm's body, it suffers only 50% of normal damage from physical attacks (including those of magic weapons) and can regenerate all lost hit points with 4 hours of rest in its passive state. The creature also has 10% magic resistance and is immune to sleep, charm, hold, and other mind-affecting spells.




We could do DR (maybe 5/magic?) but this almost seems like a miss chance.  Since it's kind of swarm-like, we could say it has a 50% chance to ignore weapon damage, rather than giving it DR.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Sure.  In fact, it sounds alot like this...

Airy (Ex): Since a plague brush is constantly turning over and its anatomy is made up of a (relatively) small amount of plant matter and lots of empty space, it is difficult to know where to attack the creature. Any melee or ranged attack with a piercing weapon directed at a plage brush has a 20% miss chance. The blow or missle may pass through the creature's body without harming it. Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Agreed to the parallels with airy.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to the parallels with airy.



Same here.  Let's adapt that.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.

Shall we work on passive form?



> In its passive state, the mold wyrm spreads out over a surface area roughly 60 feet in diameter, appearing as a continuous layer of grayish, scaly mold on the floor, walls, and ceiling of a tunnel or cavern. The resting mold wyrm simply covers up any nonambulatory natural molds and fungi already growing in the area it occupies. In this state, it always keeps a pile of jagged stones (usually obsidian) resembling a cairn somewhere on its thinly spread body.
> 
> When aroused by movement or vibration within its chamber, the fungus layer liquefies, flowing into a huge animate shape over the course of a single round. As it activates, it incorporates the jagged obsidian shards into its mouth to serve as teeth, placing them in several circular rows. In its fully active state, the mold wyrm appears as a mold-covered, gray-scaled worm with a huge, toothy maw, but no eyes and other sensory apparatus.






> Because of the trace of pure life-principle in the mold wyrm's body, it suffers only 50% of normal damage from physical attacks (including those of magic weapons) and can regenerate all lost hit points with 4 hours of rest in its passive state.






> Mold wyrms cannot remain active all the time, however. The creature must spend 8 out of every 24 hours resting in its passive state or begin losing 20% of its original hit points per hour. It can arrest this hit point loss at any time by resuming its passive state. While passive or shifting between states, the mold wyrm suffers double normal damage from damage-producing area effect spells. Attacks of any sort cause the creature to resume its active state immediately, regardless of the consequences.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Adapting Airy:

Insubstantial Anatomy (Ex): Since a mold wyrm is essentially a mass of separated plant matter held together by positive energy, it is difficult to know where to attack the creature. Any melee or ranged attack directed at a mold wyrm has a 50% miss chance. The blow or missle may pass through the creature's body without harming it. Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature.

What do you think?  Then I'm ready to move to the resting state.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Looks good!  Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Ok, then, how about this?

Passive Form (Ex?): When resting, mold wyrms spread into a 60 ft diameter film of mold and fungus that covers floor, walls, and ceiling of its habitat.  This fungal carpet always covers a cairn of obsidian rocks.  Converting between its passive form and natural worm form (which uses the rocks as teeth) takes a full round.

A mold wyrm must spend at least 8 out of every 24 hours in passive state.  If it does not, it takes 1d8? points of damage each hour that it remains in worm form.  If attacked, a mold wyrm always takes worm form, regardless of whether it has rested enough.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Lookin' good.  We'll need to add something about this...



> Because of the trace of pure life-principle in the mold wyrm's body, it suffers only 50% of normal damage from physical attacks (including those of magic weapons) and can regenerate all lost hit points with 4 hours of rest in its passive state.




Heals 1/4 of lost hp/hour, or gets 'em all back after 4?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Let's say gets them all back after 4 hours.  I think that should push this to an Su ability.  I'm going to bump the hp loss due to being too active, since the original wanted 1/5 of hp.  How's this?

Passive Form (Su): When resting, mold wyrms spread into a 60 ft diameter film of mold and fungus that covers floor, walls, and ceiling of its habitat. This fungal carpet always covers a cairn of obsidian rocks. Converting between its passive form and natural worm form (which uses the rocks as teeth) takes a full round.

Due to the trace of positive energy that holds the mold wyrm together, it heals at a rapid rate when resting.  After four consecutive hours of rest, a mold wyrm heals any hit point or temporary ability damage that it had taken and returns to full health.

A mold wyrm must spend at least 8 out of every 24 hours in passive state. If it does not, it takes 3d8 points of damage each hour that it remains in worm form. If attacked, a mold wyrm always takes worm form, regardless of whether it has rested enough.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

I like it!

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Looking pretty good.  Put all skill ranks in Spot?  Power Attack, Imp Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Imp Init, Cleave or maybe Snatch?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

Well, it's already got Imp. Grab/Swallow Whole. Snatch would be sort of redundant, yes?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Mostly, but it does let the thing toss unfortunates around.  Still, I agree.  It's just that Cleave is kind of boring.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

How about Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes instead, then? Its saves are pretty unfortunate.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

How about both, and make Improved Initiative a bonus feat?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Iron Will makes a little more sense, I guess.  We could swap Imp Init for Lightning Reflexes, too, but it doesn't have a good init either.

Edit: Shade beat me to it, and I like his solution better.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Updated.

Should we give it some sort of camouflage ability while in its passive state?  Maybe like this?

Camouflage (Ex): Since an assassin vine looks like a normal plant when at rest, it takes a DC 20 Spot check to notice it before it attacks.

Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the plant. Dwarves can use stonecunning to notice the subterranean version.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

Agreed to camouflage; I think the DC should be high--25 or even 30. After all, mold-encrusted caverns aren't too uncommon, and unlike an assassin vine, a passive mold wyrm isn't even the same shape.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Updated.

Environment: Underground?

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 8-9?

Treasure: None?

A mold wyrm is about 25 feet long and 10 feet in diameter. It weighs over x pounds.

Mold wyrms cannot speak but understand x.  (They are intelligent enough to understand a language, but I'm fine if we don't even let them understand one).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

CR 10, maybe CR 9. They can do a ton of damage and the spore cloud is nasty. They do have an absolutely pathetic AC... but a non-avoidable 50% miss chance. And are they really getting SR = CR +3? That strikes me as so low as to be not worth it.

They should understand Undercommon.

We should also set DCs for their spore abilities.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> CR 10, maybe CR 9. They can do a ton of damage and the spore cloud is nasty. They do have an absolutely pathetic AC... but a non-avoidable 50% miss chance. And are they really getting SR = CR +3? That strikes me as so low as to be not worth it.




They had 10% magic resistance originally.  I'm fine with boosting or dropping it, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

If we boosted it, let's make it CR 10. Dropping it, CR 9. 

I'd also like it if their swallow whole did bludgeoning damage in addition to spore exposure.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

Let's do CR 9.  Agreed to damage and spore exposure for swallow whole.

Slightly smaller but probably denser remhoraz is 10,000 lb.  So 8000 lb for this?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 17, 2008)

8000 pounds works for me.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2008)

Updated.

Sounds good.  Suggested bludgeoning damage?

SR = CR +11?


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

4d4?

SR seems good.  So do the other suggestions, except I think it might have some incidental treasure.  Maybe 1/2 coins, no goods, 1/2 items?


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 17, 2008)

freyar said:


> 4d4?
> 
> SR seems good. So do the other suggestions, except I think it might have some incidental treasure. Maybe 1/2 coins, no goods, 1/2 items?




I wouldn't say no goods; if it keeps obsidian stones, it should have gems.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I wouldn't say no goods; if it keeps obsidian stones, it should have gems.



Good point, though I think the stones are part of the body.  I was just thinking of stuff left behind by its victims, but there should be goods, too.  1/2 goods?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 17, 2008)

Agreed to bludgeoning damage and SR. And 1/2 goods.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Updated.  Are we missing anything?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Looks pretty good to me!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I think we're finished.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Here's a related creature.  

*Skin Puppets*
Skin puppets are victims of Mossmutter’s special spore cough. Most are humanoid, though a few were once creatures of other species. As the name implies, the skin of this monster resembles an ill-made garment, torn and patched in numerous places. A gray fungal goo oozes forth from cracks and gaps in the skin, eventually hardening into "patches" of crusty material. Hundreds of fibrous threads cover the skin puppet like a too-tight bodynet; without this support, the whole creature would collapse into so much fungal jelly.

When a skin puppet dies, its confining skin splits, allowing the gray gel inside to spill forth onto the ground. The resulting pool of goo is actually a brand new, quarter-strength (15 hp) mold wyrm that must rest in its passive state for 8 hours before it can assume active form.

Skin puppets are subsumed minds in Mossmutter’s hierarchy. Unlike other subsumed minds, however, skin puppets have a modicum of free will and can decide to forego channeling spells to take their own autonomous actions, such as physically attacking foes.

Bone fragments incorporated into the skin puppet’s fingertips serve as claws for physical attacks, inflicting ld4 points of damage per successful hit. Furthermore, the gellike material of the creature’s inner body seeps down over the claws constantly, inflicting a lesser version of the mold wyrm’s spore cough on those who come into contact with it. Thus, every time the skin puppet inflicts damage with its claws, the victim must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or suffer ld6 points of additional damage and cough violently for 1 round. While coughing, the victim receives a -2 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and proficiency checks. Multiple failures in the same round result in cumulative penalties; that is, a 4 penalty for two failed saving throws, -6 for three, and so forth.) No secondary infection results from such contact, however.

When not acting on Mossmutter’s orders, skin puppets arrange themselves in loose circles of 3d4+6 members, who sit separated from one another by 3 feet. This ring formation facilitates operations of the hierarchical mind, although there is no immediate detrimental effect on Mossmutter if several skin puppets break ranks to attack an intruder.

*Skin puppet:* AC 10; MV 9; HD 2, hp 6; THACO 19; #AT 2 (claw/claw); Dmg ld4/ld4; SA spell channeling, spore touch; SZ S (3%' tall); ML steady (12); Int non- (0); AL NE; XP 250. Special Abilities: SA-each skin puppet can join with two additional skin puppets to provide a channel for Mossmutter's spells; victim of any successful claw hit must save vs. paralyzation or suffer an additional ld6 points of damage and cough for 1 round (-2 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, and ability/proficiency checks while coughing; multiple failures inflict cumulative penalties).

Originally appeared in Return to White Plume Mountain (1999).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Love the name. Aberration?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Maybe.  Maybe plant.  What are yellow musk zombies and such?  All I can say is that somebody in D&D history has a fondness for mold-filled bodies.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Yellow musk zombies are indeed plants.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

I'm going to vote for plant, then.  Might be interesting if victims of spore blight turn into these upon death, rather than directly into mold wyrms.  Huh.

I feel like I need more info from the adventure on their spell channeling and the hierarchical mind.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Yeah, the entry makes it seem as if it's a particular mold wyrm that makes these guys, instead of just mold wyrms.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah, the entry makes it seem as if it's a particular mold wyrm that makes these guys, instead of just mold wyrms.



True, assuming Moldmutter is a mold wyrm (not that it's necessarily safe to make such assumptions when dealing with old school adventures like this. )  Anyway, just a thought.


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## Echohawk (Dec 18, 2008)

Mossmutter is indeed an enhanced mold wyrm. He is also a "False Keraptis", which is a complex template-like effect cause by memorising one of the wizard Keraptis's "imprints" (personality fragments). Doing this triggers some strange effects, such as the propensity to begin subsuming other minds to form a "hierarchical mind". False Kerapti gain the ability to generate spell effects as a 12th-level wizard, in additional to their regular powers and abilities. But assuming that I'm reading the text correctly, Skin puppets only gain these spell effects if they join with two other skin puppets.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

So, to make a generic skin puppet, we should ignore all this about Mossmutter and the false Keraptis. So, no hive mind, no joint spellcasting.


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## Echohawk (Dec 18, 2008)

Maybe, but in _Return to White Plume Mountain_ there is no such thing as a generic skin puppet -- they only exist as minions of Mossmutter.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

freyar said:


> All I can say is that somebody in D&D history has a fondness for mold-filled bodies.




Yeah, but who doesn't?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 19, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Maybe, but in _Return to White Plume Mountain_ there is no such thing as a generic skin puppet -- they only exist as minions of Mossmutter.




Then should we stat up Mossmutter as an advanced mold wyrm, then come back to the skin puppets?


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## Echohawk (Dec 19, 2008)

Probably. Although that may in turn require first coming up with a "False Keraptis" template to deal with the imprinting mechanism. Or maybe not, here's the background text and stat block for Mossmutter. I think he (it?) can probably be tackled without needing the three page explanation of what a "K: complete imprint" is...

*Mossmutter*

The False Keraptis known as Mossmutter began life as a mold wyrm. Already a product of leakage from the Basin of Boundless Life (see area 63), the creature accidentally fell into the pool of pure life-principle while fleeing from hungry fungus hulks. Of course, the eventual explosion blew the creature into tiny pieces, but some of its spores survived that process. They germinated, grew into a colony, and eventually became a new mold wyrm-one with rudimentary sentience. As chance would have it, this evolved mold wyrm swallowed a gnome who had just become a False Keraptis. This new pretender had just used his entire working complement of spell-like abilities in a battle with several fungus hulks. (This certainly amounted to overkill, but ths gnome was not known for wisdom.) As the gnome lay dying inside the mold wyrm, his mind took the only other action it could and ejected the K: complete imprint as an attack against the mold wyrm, thus creating the first fungus-based False Keraptis.
Unlike the other False Kerapti, Mossmutter prefers to accumulate subsumed minds through direct fungal infection. Instead of passing out K-imprint scrolls, he transmits imprints through his infected spores. Because of this, victims of his spore cough become vegetative skin puppets in his service rather than young mold wyrms. At present, he functions as a 17th-level wizard because of the fifty-one skin puppets in his hierarchy. Mossmutter envisions an underworld realm controlled by one dominant, contiguous bed of fungal consciousness: him! 
The mold wyrm’s “memories” of being Keraptis are even more hazy and damaged than those of the other False Kerapti. He ”remembers” being human once, but rationalizes his current fungal incarnation as a magical experiment that, though he’s forgotten its particulars, was obviously a success. Despite his imperfect memory, however, the mold wyrm did manage to locate and claim one of the original implements of power: Frostrazor. Unable to use it personally, he allows his trusted follower Saprophis to wield the weapon for him.

False Keraptis Mossmutter, enhanced mold wyrm M17: AC 6; MV 9, burrow 9; HD 17; hp 105; THACO 6; #AT 1 (bite); Dmg 5d4+5; SA spell channeling, swallow whole, spore cough; SD immunities, regeneration; SW rest, area effect spells; MR 25%; SZ G (50' long, 10' in diameter); ML elite (14); Int genius (17); AL CE; XP 13,000. 
Special Abilities: SA-swallows opponent whole with bite attack 4 or more greater than score needed to hit (save vs. death magic to avoid, 20 points of slashing or piercing damage against AC 9 to escape, spore cough automatically affects swallowed victims); spore cough (3/day, 30' x 30' x 30' area) inflicts ld6 points of damage/round, penalizes attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and proficiency checks by -2 for ld4+2 rounds, and infects victim with spores (save vs. death magic drops duration to 1 round and prevents infection; active infection negates natural healing and turns victim into a skin puppet in ld6+6 days if not cured; infection is curable only by a cure disease cast at 20th level, a wish, or a dose of disinfector spores from Mossmutter's garden); SD-immune to sleep, charm, hold, and other mind-affecting spells; half damage from physical attacks; regenerates all damage after 4 hours in passive state; SW-must rest 8 out of every 24 hours or lose 20% of original hit points/hour: double damage from damage-producing area effect spells while passive or shifting states.
Spell-like Abilities (at 17th level): 1/day--cloudkill, death fog, Evard's black tentacles, fireball, knock, mirror image, prismatic wall, reverse gravity, Serten's spell immunity, slow, stoneskin, true seeing, wind wall; 2/day--charm person, death spell, finger of death, polymorph other; 3/day--acid arrow, cone of cold, lightning bolt, magic missile.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

This was clearly one wacky adventure.  I kind of like it!

This does read like there are no other skinpuppets, but I still kind of like the idea of allowing normal mold wyrms to create them.

This isn't entirely clear about the imprinting, but I gather that Mossmutter gets spell-casting abilities from controling the "incomplete imprints" of the skin puppets somehow.

Ok, here's my question: do we want to do Mossmutter and skinpuppets as single-adventure "unique monsters" or make a false Keraptis template and allow other mold wyrms to create skin puppets?


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## Echohawk (Dec 20, 2008)

freyar said:


> This isn't entirely clear about the imprinting, but I gather that Mossmutter gets spell-casting abilities from controling the "incomplete imprints" of the skin puppets somehow.
> 
> Ok, here's my question: do we want to do Mossmutter and skinpuppets as single-adventure "unique monsters" or make a false Keraptis template and allow other mold wyrms to create skin puppets?




There are four False Kerapti in _Return to White Plume Mountain_ and, as you may have gathered by now, they are an integral part of the plot. A long time ago, a wizard named Keraptis found a way to store imprints of himself on scrolls. These are either complete or partial "K-imprints". All four of the False Kerapti have absorbed a complete K-imprint, which makes them think they are the wizard Keraptis. All of the False Kerapti have the ability to absorb subsumed minds into their hierarchical minds. Subsumed minds are created when someone absorbs a partial K-imprint -- after a few months, they become a husk and fall under the control of one of the False Kerapti.

The other three False Kerapti are a gnome, an ogre mage and an efreet, so they aren't quite as... special as Mossmutter. While the other False Kerapti gain subsumed minds from partial imprint victims, Mossmutter's subsumed minds are all Skin Puppets, created by his spore cough. In other words, Skin Puppets are the particular manifestation of Mossmutter's spore cough/spore blight abilities, as a result of him being a False Keraptis.

Here is the write up for the False Keraptis "template":

*Developing a New False Keraptis*

A DM wishing to create additional False Kerapti (or establish a former PC as a new NPC False Keraptis) can use the following guidelines to establish the character’s abilities.
A new False Keraptis can generate spell effects as a 12th-level wizard, in addition to using his or her regular powers and abilities. At the time of imprinting, the DM must choose a daily complement of spells (four 1st-level, four 2nd-level, four 3rd-level, four 4th-level, four 5th-level, and one 6th-level) for the new pretender. Available choices include spells from the character’s own spellbook or priest sphere (if applicable), plus the following list, which represents the contents of the original wizard’s spellbook: 1st-charm person, K: complete imprint*, magic missile, sleep, wizard mark; 2nd-acid arrow, continual light, darkness 15’ radius, ESP, knock, magic mouth, mirror image, wizard lock; 3rd-dispel magic, fireball, fly, lightning bolt, monster summoning I, slow, tongues; 4th-charm monster, dimension door, enchanted weapon, Evard’s black tentacles, ice storm, improved invisibility, monster summoning II, polymorph other, polymorph self, stoneskin, wind wall, wizard eye; 5th-advanced illusion, cloudkill, cone of cold, conjure elemental, dismissal, monster summoning Ill, true seeing, force, wall of stone; 6th-contingency, death fog, death spell, globe of invulnerability, monster summoning IV, Tenser's transformation. (Spells of 7th level and higher become available to a False Keraptis who reaches a level high enough to be able to cast them.) Once the DM has decided upon a spell selection, it becomes permanent. (No such choices exist for a husk who becomes the new seat of an existing hierarchical mind; he or she simply assumes the existing spell complement.) 
Like the other False Kerapti, the new pretender can channel spells through his or her husks, see through their 
eyes, speak through their mouths, and direct their actions.
*_Note_: A _K: complete imprint_ incorporates all the partial K-imprints, granting the host the standard uses/day of each and enabling him or her to scribe these sentient spells on scrolls as desired.

*The Existing False Kerapti*
Each of the four False Kerapti currently residing in White Flume Mountain calls himself Keraptis, as do the troops loyal to him. However, each pretender and his minions refer to the other False Kerapti as ”usurpers,” or by the names the Resistance leader Nix has given them (Nightfear, Spatterdock, Killjoy, and Mossmutter).
All four False Kerapti believe Wave, Whelm, Blackrazor, and Frostrazor to be their personal property. Should the PCs openly display any one of them in front of a False Keraptis, the pretender demands that they surrender it immediately. No alliances are possible unless they do so, and attempts to bargain only precipitate attacks. 

*Abilities*
Each False Keraptis gained the full spellcasting capabilities of a 12th-level wizard, in addition to the full personality of Keraptis, upon memorization of a K: complete imprint. However, as none of the K-imprints were perfect copies of the original mind, large sections of each pretender’s “memories” are hazy or altogether absent.
All the spells granted by the K: complete imprint are usable as spell-like abilities once per day, with no verbal, somatic, or material components required. Furthermore, each pretender can channel spells through his vessels at a rate of one spell per three subsumed minds per round. (These vessels must be within 10 feet of each other, but can be at any distance from their leader.) Channeled spell effects originate suddenly from the center point of the triad, without any apparent action by its members. In a single round, a False Keraptis can channel as many spells as he has groups of three subsumed minds, plus make a physical or magical attack of own. The head of the hierarchical mind can also see through the eyes of his vessels and cause them to move and act with minimal concentration. 
For every ten subsumed minds under his control, a False Keraptis gains one additional level of experience and 1 Intelligence point. These benefits persist regardless of physical distance from his husks, so long as all remain alive and on the same plane with him. Though the death of an individual husk usually does not appreciably affect the hierarchical mind, the loss of several can cost a False Keraptis both levels and Intelligence. 

*Death* 
The death of a False Keraptis forces the hierarchical mind to make a successful saving throw vs. death magic as a wizard of its current level or instantly cease to exist. Success indicates that the hierarchical mind has 1 turn to reseat itself in a new body; if it cannot, it dies. The hierarchical mind can automatically assume control of any subsumed mind in its own infrastructure, so it preferentially selects the nearest one. If none are available, it can try to force its way into an imprinted (but not yet subsumed host), who must then make a successful saving throw vs. spell to resist. Should the hierarchical mind fail to reseat in its selected host, it can try for another on each subsequent round, until either it is successful or it dies. It cannot make a second attempt on any single host, however. 
Successful reseating grants the hierarchical mind all the powers or benefits of its new body, though it loses those associated with the old one. Its spell-like abilities and “memories” remain intact, as do its connections with its remaining subsumed minds--in essence, the new host immediately ”becomes” the old False Keraptis. 
The death of a hierarchical mind immediately releases all its subsumed minds, but does not restore the lost personalities, levels, or free will of those victims. Another False Keraptis can automatically add those subsumed minds to his own hierarchy by physically touching the husks; if that does not occur, the husks remain utterly devoid of mental capacity until retrained from scratch.


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## Echohawk (Dec 20, 2008)

freyar said:


> All I can say is that somebody in D&D history has a fondness for mold-filled bodies.



Specifically, Bruce Cordell.


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

So...do we want to take a side trip and convert the False Keraptis template, then Mossmutter, then return to skin puppets?


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

I suppose we should do the false Keraptis anyway, since it seems like an unconverted template, yeah.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

So be it!

For starters, any limitation on what base creatures to which it can be applied?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

Any living creature with an intelligence score, methinks. So no oozes, constructs or undead.


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Agreed.  Seems like we should rip off hive mind from something for this.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

I forgot about this conversion.  



> A new False Keraptis can generate spell effects as a 12th-level wizard, in addition to using his or her regular powers and abilities. At the time of imprinting, the DM must choose a daily complement of spells (four 1st-level, four 2nd-level, four 3rd-level, four 4th-level, four 5th-level, and one 6th-level) for the new pretender. Available choices include spells from the character’s own spellbook or priest sphere (if applicable), plus the following list, which represents the contents of the original wizard’s spellbook: 1st-charm person, K: complete imprint*, magic missile, sleep, wizard mark; 2nd-acid arrow, continual light, darkness 15’ radius, ESP, knock, magic mouth, mirror image, wizard lock; 3rd-dispel magic, fireball, fly, lightning bolt, monster summoning I, slow, tongues; 4th-charm monster, dimension door, enchanted weapon, Evard’s black tentacles, ice storm, improved invisibility, monster summoning II, polymorph other, polymorph self, stoneskin, wind wall, wizard eye; 5th-advanced illusion, cloudkill, cone of cold, conjure elemental, dismissal, monster summoning Ill, true seeing, force, wall of stone; 6th-contingency, death fog, death spell, globe of invulnerability, monster summoning IV, Tenser's transformation. (Spells of 7th level and higher become available to a False Keraptis who reaches a level high enough to be able to cast them.) Once the DM has decided upon a spell selection, it becomes permanent. (No such choices exist for a husk who becomes the new seat of an existing hierarchical mind; he or she simply assumes the existing spell complement.)




Give it the spellcasting ability of a 12th-level wizard, or spell-like abilities based off a similar list?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

Spell-like abilities. There's no indication that any of the False Kerapti have access to Keraptis' spellbook, and it explicitly says that their spell selection is permanent.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

Agreed to SLAs. Let DMs pick the right number from a list as the original?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

A list of 20 SLAs, roll or select from it 5-10 times, perhaps?


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Let's say 9 times, twice each for spell levels 1-3, once each for levels 4-6?  Doesn't quite work like the original text, but otherwise it will be a lot of SLAs (which is ok if we decide to go that way, too!).


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't have a strong preference either way.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

freyar's suggestion nets less SLAs but seems better balanced. Let's go with that.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Ok, so now we just need to come up with the list of SLAs.  Want to just use the original list with modern spell  names?  I didn't see anything too weird on a glance.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

Conjure elemental and force? Those aren't about anymore. We should also adjust the summon monsters upwards.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Oh, missed those.  Conjure elemental might just be subsumed in summon monster, huh?  How would you replace force?


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## Echohawk (Jan 14, 2009)

freyar said:


> I didn't see anything too weird on a glance.



Well except for "K: complete imprint" maybe. Without going into the several pages of additional background, that equates to _dimension door_ (twice per day as a 10th-level caster) + _fireball_ (once per day as a 5th-level caster) + _magic missile_ (three times per day as a 9th-level caster) + raise user's magic resistance to 40% (twice per day for 1 hour) + _wall of force_ (once per day as a 10th-level caster).


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

I kind of mentally blocked that off.    Actually, I'd thought that was something that takes over someone's mind.  Huh.  That should probably be a unique special ability.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

So... dimension door, fireball, magic missile and wall of force should all be SLAs for all false Keraptis. Ditto for high SR.

Force = a Bigby's hand spell, perhaps?


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2009)

Good idea.  Choose the Bigby's spell of the appropriate level (assuming there is one)?


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

Interposing hand is the right level, but forceful hand (6th-level) seems closer to the mark.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm alright with forceful hand.


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2009)

Why not give both hand spells as possibilities at their levels?


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah, why not?  

Attempting to summarize...

Spell-Like Abilities:  all false Keraptis possess the following spell-like abilties, usable once per day: dimension door, fireball, magic missile, wall of force.

Additionally, a false Keraptis gains a number of spell-like abilities based upon the spells found in the true Keraptis's spellbook.  When creating a false Keraptis, the DM should randomly select two spells for each spell level up to 3rd, and one spell from levels 4-6.  These spells should be selected from the following list:

0--arcane mark;
1st--charm person, magic missile*, sleep; 
2nd-acid arrow, arcane lock, continual flame, darkness, detect thoughts, knock, magic mouth, mirror image; 
3rd-dispel magic, fireball*, fly, greater magic weapon, lightning bolt, slow, summon monster III, tongues, wind wall; 
4th-arcane eye, black tentacles, charm monster, dimension door*, greater invisibility, ice storm, summon monster IV, polymorph, stoneskin; 
5th-cloudkill, cone of cold, dismissal, interposing hand, persistent image, summon monster V, wall of stone; 
6th-acid fog, circle of death, contingency, forceful hand, globe of invulnerability, summon monster VI, transformation, true seeing.

Each of these spell-like abilities is usable once per day, and may only be selected once, except for those marked with an asterix.  These spells can be selected multiple times, each granting an additional daily use.  Caster level 12th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

We should add more 1st and 0th level spells to choose from.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Agreed.  

0--detect magic, mage hand, read magic, touch of fatigue?
1--feather fall, mage armor, ray of enfeeblement, shield?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Good choices!


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

I like that!


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 17, 2009)

I think you added the 0th level SLAs to the 1st level list and the 1st level ones to the 2nd level list...

So do we now need to work out the hive mind and incomplete imprinting business?


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

Fixed and sure.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

So, my understanding is that the incomplete imprinting is a process by which a false keraptis takes over someone else's mind, roughly speaking.  In the case of Mossmutter, this involves turning them into mosspuppets (or whatever they're called).  How do we want this generally to work?  Should it always involve killing and "reanimating" the victim in some way?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

It sounds like each false K gains a unique special ability that has a transformative component in addition to some other effect.   I suppose we can just use Mossy as an example, and give DM free reign to create more.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

That sounds like a good plan.  The common effect should be addition to the hivemind.  From Mossmutter, it sounds like maybe certain size hiveminds allow the false keraptis to gain extra SLAs.  Call it imprinting?


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## Echohawk (Jan 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> So, my understanding is that the incomplete imprinting is a process by which a false keraptis takes over someone else's mind, roughly speaking.  In the case of Mossmutter, this involves turning them into mosspuppets (or whatever they're called).  How do we want this generally to work?  Should it always involve killing and "reanimating" the victim in some way?






Shade said:


> It sounds like each false K gains a unique special ability that has a transformative component in addition to some other effect.   I suppose we can just use Mossy as an example, and give DM free reign to create more.




Not quite. The incomplete imprints derive from scrolls, that when read, bestow upon the "victim" one SLA, as well as an increasing chance to become a husk with every scroll read. Once the victim becomes a husk, then he or she falls under the control of one of the false keraptis. (I'm presuming the nearest, but I don't think that is ever spelled out.) Mossmutter is an exception to the rule; in his(?) case, he doesn't plant partial K-imprint scrolls, but adds to his hivemind hierarchy by infecting targets with his spores, and creating skinpuppets.

If you like, I can take another look at the mechanics of the partial imprint process -- there are about three pages of detailed history, background and mechanics in the adventure but I'm sure I can distill that down to a few relevant facts.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Hmm, maybe we can say that most false K's gain husks through the use of booby-trapped scrolls...


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> If you like, I can take another look at the mechanics of the partial imprint process -- there are about three pages of detailed history, background and mechanics in the adventure but I'm sure I can distill that down to a few relevant facts.




Yeah, that would probably help.  Thanks!


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## Echohawk (Feb 4, 2009)

Sorry for the delayed reply. I've only just been able to get back on the boards.

Here's a summary of the text on Keraptis-Imprints:
There are two types, the complete K-imprint which turns someone into a False Keraptis, and partial K-imprints that bestow spell-like abilities on the target.
Quiescent K-imprints take a written form, either a scroll or in a spellbook.
Memorising a K-imprint "spell" activates it, and gives the host one of the abilities I listed earlier (_dimension door_ (twice per day as a 10th-level caster) or _fireball_ (once per day as a 5th-level caster) or _magic missile_ (three times per day as a 9th-level caster) or raise user's magic resistance to 40% (twice per day for 1 hour) or _wall of force_ (once per day as a 10th-level caster)).
Each of those partial imprints also has a name: K:door, K:fire, K:missile, K:resistance and K:wall.
Only spellcasters can use the partial K-imprints, with the exception of the K:fire one. (Anyone can activate a complete imprint.)
K-imprints occupy a 1st-level spell slot (or consume 1 point of Intelligence for non-spellcasters).
To memorise a K-imprint requires a save vs. spell with a +4 bonus. Success means nothing happens. Failure means that spell is memorised. This happens even if a spellcaster was attempting to cast directly from a scroll.
Anyone who hosts a K-imprint has 1d4+2 months of normal life before degenrating into a mindless husk under the control of one of the existing four False Keraptis. This is either the one from whose domain the scroll was taken, or else determined randomly.
Once subsumed, the host loses all levels, Intelligence, Wisdom and personality becoming a 0-level creature with 4hp. They are capable only of eating, drooling and staring without the direction of their leaders.
This process happens slowly, with the first side effects (rolled randomly on a table of six options) occuring three days after memorisation.
An additional side effect is added every 24 hours and the effects can stack.
The K-imprint can be transferred to someone else, but if that happens the host loses only the benefits of the spell-like ability. The side effects remain and the subsumption process continues.
The process can be temporarily halted by leaving the plane, but continues when the host returns.
The process can only permanently stopped by recalling the real Keraptis to this plane.
Slaying an existing False Keraptis also halts the subsumption process, but the heirarchical mind reseats itself, and one of the slain False Keraptis' husks (possibly the ex-PC) immediately becomes a new False Keraptis.

Phew. Who knew trying to convert skinpuppets would involve a detour via Mossmutter, False Keraptis and partial K-imprints?


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Thanks!  I couldn't get in on Monday, and freyar had trouble yesterday and part of today.   'tis a crazy DNS problem.

And yeah, this is probably the craziest conversion side trek we've encountered.  It reminds me of those nested dolls...or an old cartoon where every door they open has another door behind it.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

This is probably also one of the most complicated, along with the aruchai.

What I'm thinking is something simpler.  After all, the skinpuppets are created just through the spore disease, right?


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## Echohawk (Feb 4, 2009)

Yes. I'm inclined to agree that because the skinpuppets are not hierarchical mind husks of quite the same nature as those associated with the other False Keraptis, they can probably be converted without worrying about most of the imprinting business.

(But that still leaves the conversion of the False Keraptis "template" in limbo...)


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Well, we've started all three conversions, so I'm fine with proceeding with any of them, then following with the other two.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> Yes. I'm inclined to agree that because the skinpuppets are not hierarchical mind husks of quite the same nature as those associated with the other False Keraptis, they can probably be converted without worrying about most of the imprinting business.
> 
> (But that still leaves the conversion of the False Keraptis "template" in limbo...)



Is the difference that skinpuppets can act without direction from the hierarchical mind?

I'd really like to unify this some more.


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## Echohawk (Feb 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> Is the difference that skinpuppets can act without direction from the hierarchical mind?



Well, that and the fact that the other husks aren't a crusty mass of fungal goo. 

The other husks subsumed into hierarchical minds as a result of partial imprinting don't seem to undergo any physical transformation at all, except maybe a slackening of the jaw and a build up of drool as they shuffle around.

There is a stat block for a "Subsumed gnome" in the back of the book which might be useful to highlight the statistical impact of becoming a husk:

*Subsumed gnome*: AC 10; MV 9; hp 4; THAC0 20; #AT 1 (short sword); Dmg 1d6; SA spell channeling; SW no independent actions; SZ S (3 1/2' tall); ML steady (12); Int non- (0); AL NE; XP 35.
_Special abilities_: SA -- can join with two additional subsumed minds from the same hierarchy to provide a channel for spells; SW -- cannot take independent actions.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm seriously beginning to dislike exception-based design. 

I have a small proposal: let's first write the Hierarchical Mind and Partial Imprint as abilities of the false Keraptis template, since those are things they do.  Then let's do a Subsumed Mind template.  Mossmutter and skinpuppets can be slightly(?) exceptional examples of those templates.  Also, I'm in favor of allowing some kind of actions for general subsumed minds and/or a little less freedom for skinpuppets, just to keep things a little simpler.


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## Echohawk (Feb 24, 2009)

*bump*

Methinks that perhaps Shade has forgotten about this messy skinpuppet/Mossmutter/false Keraptis/subsumed gnome conversion can of worms


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Replace "forgotten"  with "intentionally avoided" and you've hit the target.  

I suppose we'd better dive back into this soon, as we've got a few plants from Greyhawk lining up in the queue for next month.


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

Hey, Mossmutter is a plant!


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## Echohawk (Feb 24, 2009)

And the consensus, three full pages back, seemed to be that skinpuppets are probably plants too...


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Excellent!  Then I can continue to ignore them for four more days!


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> I have a small proposal: let's first write the Hierarchical Mind and Partial Imprint as abilities of the false Keraptis template, since those are things they do.  Then let's do a Subsumed Mind template.  Mossmutter and skinpuppets can be slightly(?) exceptional examples of those templates.  Also, I'm in favor of allowing some kind of actions for general subsumed minds and/or a little less freedom for skinpuppets, just to keep things a little simpler.




That sounds like a reasonable plan.


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## freyar (Feb 28, 2009)

As a rough start:

Partial Imprint (Su): Each false Keraptis has the ability to impose a partial imprint of Keraptis's mind on other creatures.  This is usually accomplished by the creation of cursed scrolls (any creature that reads the scroll receives the partial imprint), but methods may vary from one false Keraptis to another.  The victim of the partial imprint receives the Subsumed Mind template (and possibly other templates, as well, depending on the false Keraptis) and enters the Hierarchical Mind (see below?) of the controlling false Keraptis.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

That seems a reasonable start.

Do you think we can get this "bulk conversion" done by Christmas?


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## Echohawk (Mar 4, 2009)

I find myself strangely draw to this thread, possibly because I feel slightly responsible for the diversion, even though it is really Mr Cordell's fault .

That Partial Imprint description is elegant and manages to avoid a lot of the baggage of the original. I'd suggest wording it "*eventually* receives the Subsumed Mind template..." to remain true to the original. I don't think the special ability description necessarily needs to go into detail about the first phase or imprinting (where the victim remains in control, and gains a SLA + possible random side effect), but it would be good to indicate that is it not an immediate effect -- it takes a while before the victim is fully subsumed.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

You are probably drawn to it in the same way people can't look away from a train wreck.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm happy with adding "eventually" to that.  We can also give an example for a "standard" false K maybe.

Oh, Shade, I'm sure this won't be the last monster we finish converting!


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> Oh, Shade, I'm sure this won't be the last monster we finish converting!




I agree, if for no other reason than the fact that it is holding up the remaining Greyhawk conversions!

Suggested "standard" false K?


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Hmmm, let's try this:

Partial Imprint (Su): Each false Keraptis has the ability to impose a partial imprint of Keraptis's mind on other creatures. This is usually accomplished by the creation of cursed scrolls (any creature that reads the scroll receives the partial imprint), but methods may vary from one false Keraptis to another. The victim of the partial imprint eventually receives the Subsumed Mind template (and possibly other templates, as well, depending on the false Keraptis) and enters the Hierarchical Mind (see below) of the controlling false Keraptis.

A standard false Keraptis may curse any scroll corresponding to one of its spell-like abilities as a standard action.  Any creature then reading the scroll (whether casting the spell from the scroll or not) then immediately gains that spell as a spell-like ability usable once per day (?).  After 1dX days, however, the victim gains the Subsumed Mind template and becomes part of the false Keraptis's Hierarchical Mind.  

Echohawk, suggested tweaks?  Anyone think the victim should get a Will save to avoid the whole thing?


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## Echohawk (Mar 6, 2009)

In RtWPM the abilities conferred by the scroll are based on a fairly short list, rather than on all of (the false) Keraptis's SLAs. There is also a table of random side-effects that the victim starts to accumulate, but I think that including all of that into the ability write-up might be too much. I'm happy with your more streamlined version for the conversion.

For the Subsumed Mind portion, I'd suggest a Will save every X days, with the victim gaining the template after failing Y saves. I thinks that might create the gradual sense of doom in the victims that the adventure was aiming for.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Oooh, and some kind of penalty for each failed save.    Maybe a -1 Int penalty and a -1 morale penalty to some kind of check?  

What do you suggest for X and Y based on the original?


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## Echohawk (Mar 7, 2009)

Here's the original text:



> *Partial Imprints*: The hosts of partial K-imprints are destined to become the subsumed minds from which the hierarchical minds draw their power. Anyone who has ever hosted a K-imprint can count on 1d4+2 months of normal life before degenerating into a mindless husk-just another "brain cell" of one of the four False Kerapti-typically the one from whose domain the party took the offending K-imprint scroll. (If it is not clear which False Keraptis controls a particular subsumed mind, roll 1d4 to decide.) At the time of subsumption, hosts lose all their character levels, Intelligence points, and Wisdom points, as well as their personalities, becoming 0-level creatures with 4 hit points each. No longer capable of any independent action except eating, drooling, and staring, they move and speak only at the direction of their leaders. This destiny becomes apparent slowly. Anyone who memorizes a partial K-imprint begins to experience strange side effects 3 full days later. At that point, roll 1d6 for the affected character every 24 hours of game time and apply the indicated result from the "K-Imprint Side Effects Table." Any side effect can occur more than once, or the DM can devise additional effects if desired. Those who question these odd episodes should eventually realize (through revelation in a dream, if not on their own) that they result from the victim’s ongoing incorporation into a hierarchical mind.




The "1d4+2 months of normal life" seems somewhat inconsistent with new side effects "every 24 hours". So perhaps a save every 1d4 days, with five (or more?) failed saves leading to subsumption, and maybe a -1 penalty to Int _and_ Wis after each failure.


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## freyar (Mar 8, 2009)

Even that seems kind of slow maybe.  I mean, Mossmutter just has to swallow someone and spit them out, right?  What would you think about a save every 2 days and 5 failed saves?  -1 to Int and Wis for each failed save?


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## Echohawk (Mar 8, 2009)

Mossmutter's spores also take a while (1d6+6 days) to change someone into a skin puppet:



> [Mossmutter] infects victim with spores (save vs. death magic drops duration to 1 round and prevents infection; active infection negates natural healing and turns victim into a skin puppet in 1d6+6 days if not cured; infection is curable only by a cure disease cast at 20th level, a wish, or a dose of disinfector spores from Mossmutter's garden).




But a save every 2 days and 5 failed saves works for me -- I think that would work for Mossmutter _and_ the other False Kerapti.


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## freyar (Mar 8, 2009)

Good idea!  Let's write this up:

Partial Imprint (Su): Each false Keraptis has the ability to impose a partial imprint of Keraptis's mind on other creatures. This is usually accomplished by the creation of cursed scrolls (any creature that reads the scroll receives the partial imprint), but methods may vary from one false Keraptis to another. The victim of the partial imprint eventually receives the Subsumed Mind template (and possibly other templates, as well, depending on the false Keraptis) and enters the Hierarchical Mind (see below) of the controlling false Keraptis.

A standard false Keraptis may curse any scroll corresponding to one of its spell-like abilities as a standard action. Any creature then reading the scroll (whether casting the spell from the scroll or not) then immediately gains that spell as a spell-like ability usable once per day (?). Every 2 days, however, the victim must make a Will save or take 1 point of Int and Wis drain.  After 5 failed saves, the victim gains the Subsumed Mind template and becomes part of the false Keraptis's Hierarchical Mind.  The save DC is Charisma-based (DC = 10+1/2 HD +Cha bonus of the false Keraptis).

Then we can write up something similar for Mossmutter in his stats.


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## Echohawk (Mar 9, 2009)

Looks good. Once per day is fine for the SLAs. Although potentially a problem if someone reads a lot of cursed scrolls, but then I guess they are making a save for each scroll they've read, which will add up quickly.

Is Mossmutter going to be the sample False Keraptis, or do you want to convert one of the more ordinary False Kerapti as the sample, and deal with Mossmutter separately?


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2009)

I hate to say it, but I think we need to do both a standard false K and Mossmutter.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

I begrudgingly agree.


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## Echohawk (Mar 9, 2009)

In that case, here are the other three False Kerapti from RtWPM. My vote would be to updated Killjoy, mostly because he has Blackrazor!

False Keraptis "Killjoy," male efreeti M15 AC 2; MV 9, fly 24 (B); HD 8+3; hp 65; THACO 11 (51 with Blackrazor and Str bonus); #AT 1 (Blackrazor); Dmg 1d10+9/1d10+9; SA spell channeling; SD immunities; SZ 1, (12’ tall); ML champion (15); Str 18/00, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 10; AL LE; XP 12,000.
Special Abilities: gaseous form, SA-can channel one spell per round through any group of three subsumed minds in addition to other actions; SD-immune to normal fire; -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls for opponents using magical fire. 
Spell-like Abilities (at 15th level): at will-produce flame, pyrotechnics, create illusion with visual and audio components that lasts without concentration until magically dispelled or touched; 1/day-cloudkill, Evard's black tentacles, finger of death,fireball, invisibility, K: complete imprint, knock, detect magic, enlarge, magic missile, mirror image, polymorph self, slow, stoneskin, true seeing, wall of fire, wind wall; 2/day-death spell; 3/day-acid arrow, cone of cold, lightning bolt, polymorph other, sleep.
Quote: ”I AM Keraptis!” 

False Keraptis "Nightfear," male gnome M12 AC 9 (robe of protection +1); 
MV 12; hp 28; THACO 16; #AT 1 (dagger +2); Dmg 1d4+2; SZ S (3’1” tall); ML average (9); Str 7, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8; AL CE; XP 5,000. 
Special Abilities: +4 bonus to saving throws vs. rod, staff, or wand and spell; infravision (60-foot range); detect sloping passages (1-5 on 1d6), unsafe stonework (1-7 on 1d10), approximate depth (1-4 on 1d6), and direction underground (1-3 on 1d6). 
Spell-like Abilities (at 12th level): l/day--cloudkill, death spell, Evard's black tentacles, fireball, K: complete imprint, knock, levitate, mirror image, polymorph other, rope trick, shield, sleep, slow, stoneskin, true seeing, wind wall; 2/day-lightning bolt, cone of cold; 3/day--magic missile. 
Special Equipment: ring of spell storing (fireball, lightning bolt (x2), teleport (x2)).

False Keraptis "Spatterdock," male ogre mage M15: AC 0; MV 9, fly 15 (B); HD 5+2; hp 42; THACO 15 (11 with ogre-sized two-handed sword +1 and Str bonus); #AT 1 (ogre-sized two-handed sword +Z); Dmg 1d10+7; SA spell channeling; SD gaseous form, regeneration; SZ L (1O 1/2' tall); ML elite (14); Str 18/00, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 13; AL CE; XP 5,000.
Special Abilities: SA-can channel one spell per round through any group of three subsumed minds in addition to other actions; SD-regenerate 1 hp/day; assume gaseous form (1/day). 
Spell-like Abilities (at 15th level): at will--fly (12 turns before resting 12 turns), invisibility, darkness 10’ radius, polymorph self (humanoid forms between 4 and 12 feet tall); 1/day-charm person, cloudkill, death spell, Evard’s black tentacles, finger of death, K: complete imprint, knock, fireball, mirror image, sleep, slow, stoneskin, true seeing, wind wall, wizard mark; 2/day-polymorph other; 3/day-acid arrow, lightning bolt, magic missile; 4/day-cone of cold. 
Special Equipment: three potions of extra healing, ring of fire resistance.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Agreed.  Plus, he's got a cool name and bold quote.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Well, at least he can be a regular efreet with a "simple" application of the false K template.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Updated.

Trudging forth...

Sample False Keraptis

*Killjoy, False Keraptis Efreeti*
Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire)
Hit Dice: 10d8+20 (65 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+20
Attack: Slam +15 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire)
Full Attack: 2 slams +15 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./ 10 ft.
Special Attacks: Change size, heat, partial imprint, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Changes shape, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, plane shift, spell resistance HD+x, telepathy 100 ft., vulnerability to cold 
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +9
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15
Skills: Bluff +15, Craft (any one) +14, Concentration +15, Diplomacy +6, Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +17, Listen +15, Move Silently +16, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +14, Spot +15
Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved InitiativeB, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (scorching ray)
Environment: Elemental Plane of Fire
Organization: Solitary, company (2–4), or band (6–15)
Challenge Rating: 8+x
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 11–15 HD (Large); 16–30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

Change Shape (Su): An efreeti can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.

Change Size (Sp): Twice per day, an efreeti can magically change a creature’s size. This works just like a enlarge person or reduce person spell (the efreeti chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the efreeti. A DC 13 Fortitude save negates the effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Heat (Ex): An efreeti’s red-hot body deals 1d6 points of extra fire damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round it maintains a hold when grappling.

Plane Shift (Sp): A genie can enter any of the elemental planes, the Astral Plane, or the Material Plane. This ability transports the genie and up to eight other creatures, provided they all link hands with the genie. It is otherwise similar to the spell of the same name (caster level 13th).

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray (1 ray only); 3/day—invisibility, magic missile, wall of fire (DC 16); 1/day—acid arrow, black tentacles, circle of death, cloudkill, cone of cold, dimension door, fireball, grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, knock, lightning bolt, mirror image, permanent image (DC 18), sleep, slow, stoneskin, wall of force, wind wall, true seeing. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Looking at what he gained, we need to change "When creating a false Keraptis, the DM should randomly select two spells for each spell level up to 3rd, and one spell from levels 4-6" to "When creating a false Keraptis, the DM should randomly select *three *spells for each spell level up to 3rd, and *two *spells for each level from 4-6".

Also, we'll need to select three cantrips for the list from arcane mark, mage hand, read magic, and touch of fatigue.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Before we get to that, though, I think we need one more SA for the template: the Hierarchical Mind.  If Echohawk would be so kind as to summarize/post the details of that, I'll try to write that up.


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## Echohawk (Mar 11, 2009)

I think that's covered by the "Abilities" section of this post.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Ok, wasn't sure we'd covered all of it yet.  Good heavens, we've been working on this since December! 

Here's a first draft.  I'm borrowing some bits from 3e places like formians.  Also, instead of adding a level of experience, I think I'll use positive levels.   I'm not sure if the +1 to Int should maybe change to Cha, given that the SLA DCs are based on Cha.  Or we could do both, since I have the feeling this should be a fairly powreful template.  Finally, I'm not sure if the "Will save vs death" should have a fixed DC or something based on the attack that killed it.  I used a physical transformation to make the transfer of consciousness a bit easier mechanically.

Hierarchical Mind (Su): The consciousness of a false Keraptis spreads throughout its Subsumed Minds.  The false Keraptis has access to all the perceptions of all of its Subsumed Minds on the same plane of existence, and a false Keraptis cannot be flanked unless all its Subsumed Minds within line of sight are flanked.  The false Keraptis may direct the actions of one of its Subsumed Minds as a swift action, three as a move action, five as a standard action, or ten as a full-round action.

For each 10 Subsumed Minds in the Hierarchical Mind of a given false Keraptis, the false Keraptis gains a positive level and a +1 bonus to Intelligence.  In addition, for each 10 Subsumed Minds, the false Keraptis gains one additional daily use of a single spell-like ability granted by the template.

When the body of a false Keraptis is killed, the Hierarchical Mind must make a DC X Will save or be destroyed utterly (using the save bonus of the false Keraptis).  If the save succeeds, the Hierarchical Mind may jump to the body of one of the Subsumed Minds, and that body immediately transforms into the false Keraptis (essentially, the Subsumed Mind is replaced by the false Keraptis).  If there is no Subsumed Mind available, the false Keraptis may attempt to possess any victim of its partial imprint that does not yet have the Subsumed Mind template.  In that case, the partial imprint victim may make a Will save to resist the Hierarchical Mind (the DC is based on the Charisma of the false Keraptis); on a failed save, the partial imprint victim gains the false Keraptis template and acquires the memories of the previous false Keraptis.  The Hierarchical Mind may only attempt to possess each victim one time, and it may attempt only one possession per round.  If the Hierarchical Mind is unable to reseat itself into a Subsumed Mind or a partial imprint victim within one minute, it is destroyed utterly.

Whew!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Whew indeed. My cursory overview didn't see anything wrong.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Anyone with thoughts about the Will save vs destruction on death of the false K?


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## Echohawk (Mar 11, 2009)

The original adventure doesn't include a save, but I think that's because it wants to railroad the PCs into solving the adventure in a particular way (by recalling Keraptis back to the material plane, IIRC). But for the purpose of the conversion, I think the save is a sensible addition.

What happens to the Subsumed minds if a False Keraptis is killed?


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> The original adventure doesn't include a save, but I think that's because it wants to railroad the PCs into solving the adventure in a particular way (by recalling Keraptis back to the material plane, IIRC). But for the purpose of the conversion, I think the save is a sensible addition.
> 
> What happens to the Subsumed minds if a False Keraptis is killed?




It did have the save, actually.  Here's the quote from your post (I've italicized the save parts).


> Death
> The death of a False Keraptis forces the hierarchical mind to make a _successful saving throw vs. death magic as a wizard of its current level or instantly cease to exist_. Success indicates that the hierarchical mind has 1 turn to reseat itself in a new body; if it cannot, it dies. The hierarchical mind can automatically assume control of any subsumed mind in its own infrastructure, so it preferentially selects the nearest one. _If none are available, it can try to force its way into an imprinted (but not yet subsumed host), who must then make a successful saving throw vs. spell to resist_. Should the hierarchical mind fail to reseat in its selected host, it can try for another on each subsequent round, until either it is successful or it dies. It cannot make a second attempt on any single host, however.
> Successful reseating grants the hierarchical mind all the powers or benefits of its new body, though it loses those associated with the old one. Its spell-like abilities and “memories” remain intact, as do its connections with its remaining subsumed minds--in essence, the new host immediately ”becomes” the old False Keraptis.
> The death of a hierarchical mind immediately releases all its subsumed minds, but does not restore the lost personalities, levels, or free will of those victims. Another False Keraptis can automatically add those subsumed minds to his own hierarchy by physically touching the husks; if that does not occur, the husks remain utterly devoid of mental capacity until retrained from scratch.




That last paragraph seems to tell us what to do with Subsumed Minds, but maybe that should go in the Subsumed Mind template.  What a beast of a conversion!


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## Echohawk (Mar 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> It did have the save, actually.  Here's the quote from your post (I've italicized the save parts).



Gotcha. I have become confused by some of the other descriptive text from the adventure, which seems (on first read) to indicate that the False Kerapti always make the leap to a new mind. But now that I check that again it does actually say "likely".


> That last paragraph seems to tell us what to do with Subsumed Minds, but maybe that should go in the Subsumed Mind template.  What a beast of a conversion!



Agreed on both counts. So I'm going to avoid suggesting that we do another template to cover the partial K-imprints, even though they're probably complicated enough to warrant a template of their own


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Let's please just leave the partial imprints as covered by these abilities! Yikes! 

Thoughts on the save to avoid destruction?

Shall we wrap up the final things on the template before doing the sample?
SR = HD +x.  I confess I don't remember the % magic resistance for this.
Organization: Solitary or Hierarchical Mind (false Keraptis plus 3-40 Subsumed Minds)
CR = base plus 3?  It grants a lot of extra SLAs, but other SAs don't seem to affect the combat ability much.
Treasure: same as base creature?
Alignment: Changes to XE?
I think advancement like base creature works.
Don't ask me about LA, Shade's the guy with Savage Species.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Given lack of input, I'm going to tie up the loose ends here.  I also realized I forgot the "SLA channeling" part of the Hierarchical Mind (sigh).  I'm simplifying that a bit, also.  See what you all think.

Hierarchical Mind (Su): The consciousness of a false Keraptis spreads throughout its Subsumed Minds. The false Keraptis has access to all the perceptions of all of its Subsumed Minds on the same plane of existence, and a false Keraptis cannot be flanked unless all its Subsumed Minds within line of sight are flanked. The false Keraptis may direct the actions of one of its Subsumed Minds as a swift action, three as a move action, five as a standard action, or ten as a full-round action.  Instead of directing the Subsumed Minds, the false Keraptis may channel its spell-like abilities through the Subsumed Minds; these take effect as if the Subsumed Mind had used them using the false Keraptis's statistics.  The false Keraptis may channel as many spell-like abilities as it can use during a round, but each must originate from a different Subsumed Mind.

For each 10 Subsumed Minds in the Hierarchical Mind of a given false Keraptis, the false Keraptis gains a positive level and a +1 bonus to Intelligence. In addition, for each 10 Subsumed Minds, the false Keraptis gains one additional daily use of a single spell-like ability granted by the template.

When the body of a false Keraptis is killed, the Hierarchical Mind must make a DC 20 Will save or be destroyed utterly (using the save bonus of the false Keraptis). If the save succeeds, the Hierarchical Mind may jump to the body of one of the Subsumed Minds, and that body immediately transforms into the false Keraptis (essentially, the Subsumed Mind is replaced by the false Keraptis). If there is no Subsumed Mind available, the false Keraptis may attempt to possess any victim of its partial imprint that does not yet have the Subsumed Mind template. In that case, the partial imprint victim may make a Will save to resist the Hierarchical Mind (the DC is based on the Charisma of the false Keraptis); on a failed save, the partial imprint victim gains the false Keraptis template and acquires the memories of the previous false Keraptis. The Hierarchical Mind may only attempt to possess each victim one time, and it may attempt only one possession per round. If the Hierarchical Mind is unable to reseat itself into a Subsumed Mind or a partial imprint victim within one minute, it is destroyed utterly.


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## Echohawk (Mar 12, 2009)

I think that this is looking good, but I'm wondering if the description of what happens when a False Keraptis dies needs to be as detailed. What you have is now an excellent model of the original, but I think it could also stop just before the "If there is no Subsumed Mind available..." part, without losing terribly much. Put another way, I think this is such a complicated conversion that it could stand to be simplified a little.

Other than that minor comment though, I think the Hierarchical Mind write up is done.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

That's a valid point.  I'm interested to hear what anyone else thinks (if they're brave enough to read the thread!).  OTOH, I kind of like the idea of transfering to a new false K with a slightly different version of the template.  After all, that's what happened to Mossmutter, right?


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

I'm sorry for the sporadic responses.  This conversion(s) fatigues me.  

Your writeup looks good, and I agree with both of you.  It could definitely use any simplification we can give it, but the transference that resulted in Mossmutter is interesting.  

<takes seat on fence>


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Here's what my gut tells me: this is such a complicated beast of a template (heck, it has nonuniform effects and at least one associated template also with nonuniform effects, along with "standard" and nonstandard examples for each) that no DM crazy enough to use it will shy away from another couple sentences in this ability. 

You know, on the Advanced Bestiary template difficulty scale of 1-3, this thing is probably turned up to 11.


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## Echohawk (Mar 13, 2009)

Oh, right. I'd forgotten all about Mossmutter. Better keep that extra bit then


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

Updated.

Modify the base creature's abilities at all?  Increased Cha, perhaps?   The Int boost is already covered by hierarchal mind.

Scanning over the original text of the "template", I'm not finding spell resistance.  Were we basing that off Mossmutter's 25% magic resistance?  If so, then SR should equal CR+6 (or, we could simplify to HD plus, say, 10?).


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## Echohawk (Mar 13, 2009)

Hmmmm... mold wyrms have an MR of 10%, Mossmutter has 25% and the other False Kerapti have none. However, the False Keraptis "template" includes the "K: complete imprint" spell, which has the following note:


> Note: A _K: complete imprint_ incorporates all the partial K-imprints, granting the host the standard uses/day of each and enabling him or her to scribe these sentient spells on scrolls as desired.



And one of the partial K-imprints (which we are carefully avoiding turning into a tempate of their own <grin>) is "Raise user's magic resistance to 40% (twice per day for 1 hour)".

None of which explains Mossmutter's 25% MR, of course. Presumably, that's an exception to the exceptional application of the exceptional False Keraptis template...


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2009)

Well, I could see adding a boost to Cha along with Int in the Hierarchical Mind.  It fits the use of SLAs.

As for SR, let's go with HD+10 for everybody.  There's such a thing as too many exceptions.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2009)

Cha +4?

I'm thinking no level adjustment...the subsumed mind function alone makes it far too powerful for a player character, me thinks.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2009)

That and the whole "alien will" thing. Yeah, no LA for these guys.


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2009)

Agreed to no LA. 

So we'll just go with a flat Cha bonus rather than a step-wise bonus in the Hierarchical Mind?  Fine by me.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Updated.

Ready to revisit our sample creature, Killjoy?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

Ready!


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Revisiting...

Sample False Keraptis

*Killjoy, False Keraptis Efreeti*
Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire)
Hit Dice: 10d8+20 (65 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+20
Attack: Slam +15 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire)
Full Attack: 2 slams +15 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./ 10 ft.
Special Attacks: Change size, heat, hierarchical mind, partial imprint, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Changes shape, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, plane shift, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., vulnerability to cold 
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +9
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 19
Skills: Bluff +17, Craft (any one) +14, Concentration +15, Diplomacy +8, Disguise +4 (+6 acting), Intimidate +19, Listen +15, Move Silently +16, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +14, Spot +15
Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative (B), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (scorching ray)
Environment: Elemental Plane of Fire
Organization: Solitary or hierarchical mind (Killjoy plus 3-40 subsumed minds)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items
Alignment: Lawful evil
Advancement: 11–15 HD (Large); 16–30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

Change Shape (Su): An efreeti can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.

Change Size (Sp): Twice per day, an efreeti can magically change a creature’s size. This works just like a enlarge person or reduce person spell (the efreeti chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the efreeti. A DC 19 Fortitude save negates the effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Heat (Ex): An efreeti’s red-hot body deals 1d6 points of extra fire damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round it maintains a hold when grappling.

Plane Shift (Sp): A genie can enter any of the elemental planes, the Astral Plane, or the Material Plane. This ability transports the genie and up to eight other creatures, provided they all link hands with the genie. It is otherwise similar to the spell of the same name (caster level 13th).

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray (1 ray only); 3/day—invisibility, magic missile, wall of fire (DC 18); 1/day—acid arrow, black tentacles, circle of death, cloudkill, cone of cold, dimension door, fireball, grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, knock, lightning bolt, mirror image, permanent image (DC 20), sleep, slow, stoneskin, wall of force, wind wall, true seeing. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

We'll need to select three cantrips for the list from arcane mark, mage hand, read magic, and touch of fatigue.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Drop mage hand.

Let's make his partial imprint just the standard scroll one and note that his Subsumed Minds are also standard (when we write that template).


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## Echohawk (Mar 20, 2009)

He's missing Blackrazor!


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

For now....  

Arms & Equipment Guide lists it as an intelligent +3 greatsword with some complicated mechanics.

I'm thinking for our purposes we should simplify it to a greater form of the sword of life stealing (or a variant of the epic weapon Souldrinker).


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

I think Blackrazor is also written-up as a weapon of legacy in the free WotC conversion of White Plume Mountain.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

I like making it a sword of life drinking. Hell, we could give him an ordinary sword of life drinking, then lampshade it by saying that Killjoy believes himself to possess the legendary Blackrazor.


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like making it a sword of life drinking. Hell, we could give him an ordinary sword of life drinking, then lampshade it by saying that Killjoy believes himself to possess the legendary Blackrazor.




I like that idea!  It's fun, and more CR-appropriate.


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## Echohawk (Mar 23, 2009)

Hmmm... I lke that idea except that it is inconsistent with _Return to White Plume Mountain_, where the main goal of the adventure is to collect the four legendary weapons (Frostrazor, Blackrazor, Wave and Whelm) and insert them into the _Obelisk of Summoning_ to recall Keraptis to the Prime Material Plane. It's pretty clear that the sword is intended to be the original Blackrazor. Now that I look, there is a halfpage write-up of Blackrazor's stats in the adventure. Should I post that as a reference?


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

Yeah, in that case, I'd say nothing less than the real deal will suffice.

If it's just a matter of cut n' paste, go ahead and post 'em.


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## Echohawk (Mar 23, 2009)

*Blackrazor*
Blackrazor is a neutral evil two-handed sword +3 that inflicts 1d10+3 points of damage on a successful melee hit (or 3d6+3 points vs. size L or larger target). Its blade resembles a piece of the night sky studded with strange stars, and carved obsidian stones decorate its sheath. In reality, Blackrazor is an entity of shaped negative energy that revels in absorbing life energy from those it kills. 
On any killing blow, Blackrazor sucks out and devours the soul of its victim. This action temporarily adds the dead foe’s total levels or HD to wielder’s, increasing his or her THAC0 and attacks/round accordingly. The user also gains the hit points the victim possessed when fully healthy, and all subsequent damage is applied against these "stolen" hit points first. Victims who have lost their souls to Blackrazor cannot be raised. 
The sentient sword, which has an Intelligence score of 17 and an ego rating of 16, communicates with its wielder and any nearby living beings via telepathy. Blackrazor is almost the epitome of an evil weapon, existing solely to feed on power and souls, and no good-aligned party can retain that distinction for long with this weapon in its midst. For every three days the sword remains "unfed," its ego increases by 1 point. When it becomes capable of controlling its wielder, it compels him or her to slay the nearest living creature -- preferably a friend or relative. After feeding on the slain creature’s life force, the sword’s ego returns to 16.
The sword does have one drawback, which it never communicates to any wielder. Should it touch a creature tied to the Negative Material Plane (such as an undead being of any type), it transfers one energy level (with corresponding hit points) from the wielder to the creature attacked. Each and every successful blow sucks yet another level from the sword’s unfortunate owner, and the sword devours its wielder's soul should his or her level reach 0. A character who has lost levels in this manner can regain them only through normal adventuring, via a restoration spell, or by using Blackrazor to steal twice as many levels from other living creatures as they lost.
Blackrazor has an XP value of 8,000.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Rather than being quite like a sword of life stealing, it "steals" levels only on a killing blow?  And it gives the wielder (a lot of) temporary hp and positive levels.  Not quite sure about the undead bit yet.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

The "negative energy conduit" and reverse level drains is too much fun!


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2009)

True, let's leave the drawback about attacking undead.   Do you agree about positive levels?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

Ouch!  I tripped over this conversion again while trying to avoid it.  

Getting started on Blackrazor...

Blackrazor:  Blackrazor is a minor(?) artifact that functions as an intelligent, +3 greatsword.  When it deals a killing blow to any living creature, it immediately grants its bearer a number of positive levels equal to the slain creature's Hit Dice.  These positive levels last for 24 hours.   Because Blackrazor steals the victim' soul, there is only a 50% chance that a wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell can restore a devoured victim to life. Check once for each destroyed creature. If the check fails, the creature cannot be brought back to life by mortal magic.

If Blackrazor is used to strike an undead creature (or other creature with ties to negative energy, such as a slow shadow or xeg-yi), the sword instead bestows one negative level on the wielder, and grants the target 5 temporary hit points (which expire 24 hours later).

Blackrazor is neutral evil with the following ability scores:  Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 17, Ego x.  Blackrazor's Ego score improves by 1 for every 3 days it goes "unfed".


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

How about adding temporary hit points along with the positive levels?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

Don't you gain temporary hp by default with positive levels?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Oh, probably.  Yeah, I guess if it's just the opposite of a negative level, you're right.   Anyway, Blackrazor looks good.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2009)

Updated.

We need to figure out Blackrazor's Ego score.

It gets 6 points from ability score bonuses.
It gets 3 points for enhancement bonuses.
I'd say that the "soulsucking" counts as a special purpose dedicated power, so that's another 4 points.
Telepathy is worth another 2 points.

So that looks like Ego 15 unless I'm missing something.


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

Sounds right.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 6, 2009)

That seems... sort of low, considering.


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

True, but that's how it adds up.  Give it a bonus 4 for the undead bit?  Or tack on another ability?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2009)

If it were randomly created, it would have the following based on its ability scores:

Speech, telepathy
Three lesser powers 
One greater power (the special purpose power takes this space) 
120 ft. darkvision and hearing 

Some appropriate lesser powers from the list:

Item has deathwatch continually active  
Item has 10 ranks in Intimidate 
Item has 10 ranks in Knowledge (the planes or religion) 
Item has 10 ranks in Sense Motive  
Item has 10 ranks in Bluff 

Also, its "artifact status" is probably worth at least an Ego point or two.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2009)

If I were picking from that list, I'd go with deathwatch (the better to get those positive levels!), Intimidate, and Knowledge (the planes), though I might switch Know. with Bluff.  

I'd say the nigh-indestructibility of an artifact should count at least as a bonus lesser power.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2009)

Blasted double posts!  ******** internets.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2009)

So...


*Blackrazor:* Blackrazor is a minor artifact that functions as an intelligent, +3 greatsword. When it deals a killing blow to any living creature, it immediately grants its bearer a number of positive levels equal to the slain creature's Hit Dice. These positive levels last for 24 hours. Because Blackrazor steals the victim' soul, there is only a 50% chance that a wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell can restore a devoured victim to life. Check once for each destroyed creature. If the check fails, the creature cannot be brought back to life by mortal magic.

If Blackrazor is used to strike an undead creature (or other creature with ties to negative energy, such as a slow shadow or xeg-yi), the sword instead bestows one negative level on the wielder, and grants the target 5 temporary hit points (which expire 24 hours later).

Blackrazor has 120 ft. darkvision and hearing.  It speaks Common, Abyssal, Infernal, and Draconic, and can communicate telepathically with its wielder.  It has deathwatch continually active, and possesses 10 ranks each in Intimidate and Knowledge (the planes), giving it a +13 modifier with both skills.

Blackrazor is neutral evil with the following ability scores: Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 17, Ego 19. Blackrazor's Ego score improves by 1 for every 3 days it goes "unfed". Blackrazor communicates via telepathy.


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## freyar (Apr 11, 2009)

Looking fine to me.  How's everyone else like it?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 11, 2009)

I like the Ego increasing when it goes hungry. I think it looks good!


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2009)

Updated.

What's left?


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Killjoy looks good.  

Want to do the Subsumed Mind template or Mossmutter next?


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## Echohawk (Apr 14, 2009)

Subsumed Mind template, I think. That should be fairly quick (at least compared to the False Keraptis).


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

Feel free to work on them both while I'm on vacation.


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> Subsumed Mind template, I think. That should be fairly quick (at least compared to the False Keraptis).




Can you easily compile all the info we have on those?



Shade said:


> Feel free to work on them both while I'm on vacation.


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## Echohawk (Apr 14, 2009)

Sure, I can try to summarise the bits relevant for the "Subsumed Mind" template:

Extracts from the False Keraptis conversion:







> The false Keraptis has access to all the perceptions of all of its Subsumed Minds on the same plane of existence, [...]. The false Keraptis may direct the actions of one of its Subsumed Minds [...]. Instead of directing the Subsumed Minds, the false Keraptis may channel its spell-like abilities through the Subsumed Minds[...]
> 
> Each false Keraptis has the ability to impose a partial imprint of Keraptis's mind on other creatures. [...] After 5 failed saves, the victim gains the Subsumed Mind template and becomes part of the false Keraptis's Hierarchical Mind.




From this post:







> The other husks subsumed into hierarchical minds as a result of partial imprinting don't seem to undergo any physical transformation at all, except maybe a slackening of the jaw and a build up of drool as they shuffle around.
> 
> There is a stat block for a "Subsumed gnome" in the back of the book which might be useful to highlight the statistical impact of becoming a husk:
> 
> ...




You suggested:







> I have a small proposal: let's first write the Hierarchical Mind and Partial Imprint as abilities of the false Keraptis template, since those are things they do. Then let's do a Subsumed Mind template. Mossmutter and skinpuppets can be slightly(?) exceptional examples of those templates. Also, I'm in favor of allowing some kind of actions for general subsumed minds and/or a little less freedom for skinpuppets, just to keep things a little simpler.




And also, for Killjoy  you noted:







> Let's make his partial imprint just the standard scroll one and note that his Subsumed Minds are also standard (when we write that template).


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Hehe, I'm glad you like to cut and paste!   So that's it from the adventure, too?  I guess we'll have to get down to work on these, especially while Shade's away.


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## Echohawk (Apr 15, 2009)

It doesn't look like there is any more detail in the adventure on the effects of the subsumption process.

Basically, a Subsumed Mind:

Undergoes no physical changes, although it looks like that gnome in the example has a marginally worse THAC0 than a vanilla gnome.
Cannot take any independent actions (but you suggested allowing them _some_ sort of actions).
Shares senses with the subsuming False Keraptis. Does this work both ways? Does the Subsumed Mind gain any benefit from the fact that the False Keraptis has access to its perceptions?
Can channel the spell-like abilities of the subsuming False Keraptis. I notice that the subsumed gnome has to join with two additional subsumed minds to do this, but that this restriction isn't included in Hierarchical Mind ability description in the False Keraptis conversion. Was this something that we decided to alter, or did we just not spot this until now?


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

Yeah, I think allowing a few actions would make the skinpuppets less of an exception.  

Perhaps some kind of insight penalty to AC?

I think the no-flanking bit from formians, etc, might be a reasonable benefit for the Subsumed Minds.

I spotted the multiple Subsumed Mind SLA channeling, but I didn't want to get quite that complex. 

Shade, actually, can you add a line to Killjoy that his partial imprint and subsumed minds are standard?


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2009)

*Subsumed Mind Template*

Ok, getting started.  This will be my working post for the Subsumed Mind template with discussion below.

*Subsumed Mind (template)*

A Subsumed Mind is the victim of the partial imprint ability of a false Keraptis.  The entire intellect of each Subsumed Mind simply increases the capacity of the false Keraptis's hierarchical mind, so Subsumed Minds are capable only of very limited individual actions.

On the other hand, Subsumed Minds are profitable servants for a false Keraptis to possess.  They can serve as eyes and ears for the false Keraptis as well as channeling the false Keraptis's spell-like abilities.

Please see the false Keraptis template for additional information.  This template describes Subsumed Minds for a false Keraptis with a standard partial imprint ability.

Creating a Subsumed Mind

"Subsumed Mind" is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature with an Intelligence score which has been affected by the partial imprint ability of a false Keraptis (henceforth referred to as the base creature).

Creatures of more than 20 racial HD cannot become Subsumed Minds.  If such a creature is affected by the partial imprint ability of a false Keraptis, the hierarchical mind will likely move to the more powerful body, leaving the original false Keraptis body as a Subsumed Mind.

A Subsumed Mind has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The base creature’s size and type are unchanged in the standard Subsumed Mind template. 

Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1).

Speed: The speed and movement forms of the Subsumed Mind are unchanged.

Armor Class: The natural armor of a Subsumed Mind is unchanged.

Base Attack: A Subsumed Mind has a base attack bonus as normal for a creature of its type and hit dice. 

Attacks: A Subsumed Mind retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature.  These attacks are subject to a -1 insight penalty.

Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal damage normally.

Special Attacks: A Subsumed Mind retains the base creature's Ex special attacks except for those gained from class abilities.  It loses all Su, Sp, and Ps special attacks.  It also gains the following special attacks.

_Instrument of Hierarchical Mind (Su):_ A Subsumed Mind can act with the will of the false Keraptis's Hierarchical Mind.  If the false Keraptis directs the Subsumed Mind, the Subsumed Mind may take actions as a normal creature.  In addition, if the false Keraptis chooses, it may channel spell-like abilities through its Subsumed Minds.  This functions as if the Subsumed Mind had used one of the false Keraptis's spell-like abilities, using the false Keraptis's statistics.  Each Subsumed Mind may channel only one spell-like ability per round.

Special Qualities: A Subsumed Mind retains the base creature's Ex special qualities except for those gained from class abilities.  It loses all Su, Sp, and Ps special attacks.  It also gains the following special qualities.

_Single Actions Only (Ex):_ Subsumed Minds have little will of their own and can perform only a single move action or attack action each round, except when they are directed by the Hierarchical Mind (see _Instrument of Hierarchical Mind_ above).

_Hierarchical Mind Awareness (Su):_ All Subsumed Minds and the associated false Keraptis share the awareness of the Hierarchical Mind.  A Subsumed Mind cannot be flanked unless all Subsumed Minds (from the same Hierarchical Mind) within line of sight are flanked.

Saves: The Subsumed Mind has base save bonuses appropriate for its hit dice and type.

Abilities:The base creature's ability scores change as follows: Int - .

Skills: A Subsumed Mind has no skills.

Feats: The Subsumed Mind keeps the feats of the base creature but may only use those for which it still meets the prerequisites.

Environment: Any.

Organization: Solitary, ganglion (2-6), or hierarchical mind (3-40 subsumed minds plus possibly false Keraptis).

Challenge Rating: Depends on hit dice, as follows:
HD       CR
1/2	   1/6
1	    1/3
2–3	  1
4–5	  2
6–7	  3
8–9	  4
10–11	5
12–14	6
15–17	7
18–20	8

Treasure: None.

Alignment: Always evil (same as associated false Keraptis).

Advancement: Same as the base creature.

Level Adjustment: —.


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## Echohawk (Apr 17, 2009)

Looks good so far. Am I correct in assuming that this template is going to be included as part of the main False Keraptis entry, rather than being a stand-alone conversion?


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2009)

You'd have to ask Shade.  Based on other recent "linked" conversions, it will probably be different, but maybe we can get Shade to hyperlink them.

I'll be adding more to the above post momentarily.  Just took a break to browse the forums after accidentally hitting "submit" instead of "preview."


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## Echohawk (Apr 17, 2009)

Yeah, usually I'd be in favour of it being a separate entry. However, I can't see anyone using the Subsumed Mind template without there being a False Keraptis involved, so it feels as if this template should just be a note within the False Keraptis conversion.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2009)

Well, I have a rough sketch of the whole template.  See what you think and make suggestions!


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## Echohawk (Apr 18, 2009)

I'm happy with all of that, but I think I'd leave out the references to a "standard" Subsumed Mind -- I think this template should only deal with the standard Subsumed Mind template. Any changes that Mossmutter's minds need can just be noted under Mossmutter. i.e. Something like "Mossmutter's Subsumed Minds use the 'Subsumed Mind' template with the following changes: ..."


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2009)

That's an idea!  I'll go ahead and do that.  And I'll fill in the X's sometime later.


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## Echohawk (Apr 18, 2009)

Fortunately, there don't seem to be too many Xs left to fill in -- I think you've almost finished this template already!

I'm not sure a Subsumed Mind should retain all of the SQ of the base creature. A subsumed githzerai, for example, should probably lose all their psionic powers and _intertial armor_, since those require the githzerai to have a mind. (I have no idea how to translate that limitation into a game mechanic though.)


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2009)

Good point! (And you say you're not good at monster design.  You should give yourself more credit. )  How about keeping Ex but not Su, Sp, or Ps abilities?  That's something like a skeleton or zombie, which are close to these in spirit. 

Any ideas on the CR of these?  I was thinking about CR by HD table (like skeletons and zombies), but I wonder if the power of the associated false K somehow should play in.


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## Echohawk (Apr 18, 2009)

freyar said:


> How about keeping Ex but not Su, Sp, or Ps abilities?  That's something like a skeleton or zombie, which are close to these in spirit.



That works for me  



> Any ideas on the CR of these?  I was thinking about CR by HD table (like skeletons and zombies), but I wonder if the power of the associated false K somehow should play in.



I was wondering if Subsumed Minds should actually have their own CR, or if perhaps they should be included in the CR of the controlling False Keraptis, and that should depend of the number of minds in its hierarchy. 

Especially given that:







			
				False Keraptis said:
			
		

> For each 10 Subsumed Minds in the Hierarchical Mind of a given false Keraptis, the false Keraptis gains a positive level and a +1 bonus to Intelligence. In addition, for each 10 Subsumed Minds, the false Keraptis gains one additional daily use of a single spell-like ability granted by the template.




Perhaps the False Keraptis template should have a CR of "Same as the based creature +3" -- which it has now -- "plus 1 for every Y subsumed minds"?


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2009)

Changed the SA and SQ sections as discussed above. Also went with no treasure, alignment same as false K, and "ganglion" for the group.  

I think you're right about the CR of the false K depending on the number of Subsumed Minds.  We should probably keep track of these comments on the false K template, too, for when Shade gets back.

I do think Subsumed Minds need their own CR, though, since they can be encountered separately.  The thing is, unless the false K channels a high-level SLA through them, they're not very challenging.  There are a few undead kind of like that we did (gem eyes, I think), which I'll take a look at.


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## Echohawk (Apr 19, 2009)

Yeah, I am persuaded that the Subsumed Minds do need their own CR. In which case, I agree with a CR by HD table for them (probably something closer to that for skeletons, than for zombies). I think their CR should ignore any potential channelled SLAs though, because those attacks should be factored into the False K's CR.

And I really like "ganglion"!


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2009)

That's probably a fair approach.  I was thinking of noting that high-level SLAs channeled through the Subsumed Minds (higher than some relation to their HD, I guess) should count as an extra trap or something.  what do you think?


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## Echohawk (Apr 20, 2009)

So you mean something like CR = base CR linked to HD + additional CR similar to a trap for any channelled SLA? I'm afraid that sounds overly complex to me. I'm thinking that if the PCs are encountering Subsumed Minds, then there is an encounter with a False Keraptis looming just up the DM's sleeve. In which case factoring the SLAs into the False Keraptis CR is sufficient. If they kill a SLA-channelling Subsumed Mind, they are weakening the relevant False Keraptis, which means that by the time they reach the FK, it has fewer SLAs left to use (and potentially a reduced level from the weakened Heirachical Mind).


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## freyar (Apr 20, 2009)

Yeah, that is a bit tricky, and I see your point.  I guess I was thinking that the false K might use the Subsumed Minds as scouts or agents, but they probably aren't much good at that.  What if we just use the skeleton table?  Want to limit Subsumed Minds to 20 HD, or add CR for additional HD?

HD  CR
1/2	1/6
1	1/3
2–3	1
4–5	2
6–7	3
8–9	4
10–11	5
12–14	6
15–17	7
18–20	8


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## Echohawk (Apr 20, 2009)

I think that table is fine as is. If the False Keraptis is subsuming the mind of a >20HD creature, I suspect that the seat of the Heirarchical Mind would probably shift to the more powerful host body, even though the rules don't spell that out as an option. At least, that's how I'd probably handle such an unusual situation in my game.


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## freyar (Apr 20, 2009)

That's a nice idea.  I think I'll put that in the text at the top of the template!

Edit: included that in the template.


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## Echohawk (Apr 20, 2009)

Looks good, I think this is probably done now. Do you want to take a look as Mossmutter and the Skinpuppets next? Maybe we can have this whole complex batch finished by the time Shade gets back


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## freyar (Apr 20, 2009)

Let's do Mossmutter, I guess!  I wonder if it's just easier for you to repost his original stats rather than trying to find them in this thread.  For reference our converted mold wyrm is here.


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## Echohawk (Apr 20, 2009)

Mossmutter's original stats are in this post. I guess the process is to apply the False Keraptis template to the mold wyrm, and compare the result to the original Mossmutter, right?


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## freyar (Apr 20, 2009)

I guess that's next.  I can already see one problem, though.  A mold wyrm is Int 4, and Mossmutter is Int 17 with only 51 skinpuppets, and our false K template doesn't give Int boosts outside the hierarchical mind.  We need to make up 8 points of Int.  Killjoy is off by 4 points of Int compared to his original stats, also, although I don't know how many Subsumed Minds he's supposed to have.  Think we should add an Int bonus to the false K template?  I'd say it makes sense to do that, but we could just say that Mossmutter gets a boost from his unusual form.


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## Echohawk (Apr 20, 2009)

Yes, Mossmutter should definitely get an intelligence boost over and above anything from the False Keraptis template because of this bit:


> The False Keraptis known as Mossmutter began life as a mold wyrm. Already a product of leakage from the Basin of Boundless Life (see area 63), the creature accidentally fell into the pool of pure life-principle while fleeing from hungry fungus hulks. Of course, the eventual explosion blew the creature into tiny pieces, but some of its spores survived that process. They germinated, grew into a colony, and eventually became a new mold wyrm-*one with rudimentary sentience*.


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2009)

You're right, I missed that!  Without introducing a "Basin of Boundless Life" template, I could see using the elite array for Mossmutter.  That could net us a +4 or +5 on Int right there, I think.  Maybe we could get Shade to add a small (say +2) Int boost to the false K template.  Then Killjoy just doesn't have too many Subsumed Minds.

Will see if I can start on the template application for Mossmutter today.  I'm a bit behind at work, though.


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## Echohawk (Apr 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Without introducing a "Basin of Boundless Life" template



Don't even joke about that!


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## Echohawk (Apr 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> We need to make up 8 points of Int.  Killjoy is off by 4 points of Int compared to his original stats, also, although I don't know how many Subsumed Minds he's supposed to have.



Thirty, apparently.


			
				Return to White Plume Mountain said:
			
		

> Presently, Killjoy functions as a 15th-level wizard because of the thirty subsumed minds currently under his control.


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2009)

Missed that line, too.  Ok, here's my proposal:
Add Int +2 to the false K template.
Add 30 Subsumed Minds to Killjoy.  With the +2, he's now slightly too Intelligent, but maybe we can fix that by making him an elite array monster (nonelite would actually work even better) if we want.
Make Mossmutter elite.  That can boost his Int by 5,  and a +2 from the false K template and another +5 from the Subsumed Minds puts him at Int 16.  Close enough?

I think I may be able to get started on Mossmutter today if that proposal sounds good to you.


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## Echohawk (Apr 22, 2009)

Yup, that sounds sensibe to me. (And you hadn't missed that line about Killjoy's thirty subsumed minds. I don't think I've posted that before, since I only just stumbled on it in RtWPM.)


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2009)

*Mossmutter*

This will be the working post for Mossmutter.  

Advancing to 17 HD...  Still needs work on special abilities, text.  I put an extra +1 Int at 16 HD.  Also gave him exceptional reach since some of the original text suggests he's quite flexible. 

*Mossmutter, Advanced Elite Mold Wyrm false Keraptis*
Gargantuan Plant
Hit Dice: 17d8+212 (288 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 0 ft.
Armor Class:  14 (–4 size, +10 natural, -2 Dex), touch 4, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+40
Attack: Bite +29 melee (4d6+24)
Full Attack: Bite +29 melee (4d6+24)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/15 ft (30 ft with bite)
Special Attacks: Improved grab, spore cough, swallow whole, spell-like abilities, hierarchical mind, partial imprint
Special Qualities: Immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities, insubstantial anatomy, low-light vision, plant traits, telepathy 100 ft, fast healing 5, spell resistance 27
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +10, Will +12
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 6, Con 32, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 19
Skills: Concentration +36, Knowledge (arcana) +28, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +28, Knowledge (the planes) +28, Spellcraft +28
Feats: Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative (B), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability (magic missile)
Environment: White Plume Mountain, Basin of Boundless Life.
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 14
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: —

_Before you is a huge mold-covered, gray-scaled worm. Its circular, toothy maw is formed of stones, but no eyes or other sensory organs are visible.  Somehow, though, it conveys a sense of intelligence and danger._

Like other mold wyrms, Mossmutter began life due to magical leakage from the Basin of Boundless Life; however, Mossmutter actually entered the basin and gained greater power and intelligence than other mold wyrms (effectively gaining the elite ability score array and advancing to 17 HD).  Due to his strong attachment to the Basin of Boundless Life, Mossmutter is rooted to the ground nearby.  Mossmutter does not need to assume passive form, but the positive energy from the Basin has granted it fast healing.

One day, Mossmutter managed to devour a gnome wizard false Keraptis, who managed to reseat his Hierarchical Mind within the mold wyrm itself!  In the process, some of the wizard's prepared spells became spell-like abilities for Mossmutter, who therefore has more spell-like abilities than the usual false Keraptis.  Mossmutter has also retained some of the wizard's knowledge, but its Hierarchical Mind has become tied to its mold wyrm form.

Mossmutter's memories of life as Keraptis are jumbled, chaotic, and vague.  Obviously, though, its current form is the result of some brilliant magical experiment.

Mossmutter understands Common, Undercommon, Draconic, Abyssal, and Gnome but cannot speak except through telepathy.

Mossmutter's abilities were Str 13, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 14 before racial, size, HD, and template modifiers.

Combat
_Due to limited mobility, Mossmutter is forced to rely heavily on Skinpuppet minions, as well as his gnome servant Saprophis, in battle.  Mossmutter has at least 6 Skinpuppets nearby at any time, with more present if Mossmutter knows of foes.  During battle, Mossmutter alternately channels spell-like-abilities through Skinpuppets, breathes spores, and bites opponents who get too close._

Hierarchical Mind (Su): Mossmutter's consciousness spreads throughout its Subsumed Minds. Mossmutter has access to all the perceptions of all of its Subsumed Minds on the same plane of existence, and it cannot be flanked unless all its Subsumed Minds within line of sight are flanked. Mossmutter may direct the actions of one of its Subsumed Minds as a swift action, three as a move action, five as a standard action, or ten as a full-round action. Instead of directing the Subsumed Minds, Mossmutter may channel its spell-like abilities through the Subsumed Minds; these take effect as if the Subsumed Mind had used them using the Mossmutter's statistics. Mossmutter may channel as many spell-like abilities as it can use during a round, but each must originate from a different Subsumed Mind.

For each 10 Subsumed Minds in the Hierarchical Mind, Mossmutter gains a positive level and a +1 bonus to Intelligence. In addition, for each 10 Subsumed Minds, Mossmutter gains one additional daily use of a single spell-like ability granted by the template and the caster level for all spell-like abilities increases by 1.  Mossmutter has 51 Subsumed Minds.  The resulting bonus to Intelligence and positive levels are reflected in the above statistics.  Any ability checks or unlisted skill checks also receive a +5 bonus from positive levels.

Mossmutter's Hierarchical Mind is now inherently tied to the mold wyrm body.  Therefore, when Mossmutter dies, the Hierarchical Mind is destroyed.  In that case, all Mossmutter's Skinpuppets also die, becoming normal mold wyrms.

Partial Imprint (Su): Mossmutter's partial imprint ability is tied to its spores.  Unlike other mold wyrms, creatures that die from Mossmutter's spore blight become Subsumed Minds, acquiring the Skinpuppet template (see spore cough below).

Spell-like Abilities:  1/day - dimension door, fireball, wall of force, mage hand, read magic, charm person, mirror image, slow, polymorph, black tentacles, knock, stoneskin, wind wall; 2/day - acid arrow*, lightning bolt*, cone of cold*, circle of death*; 3/day - magic missile*
Caster level 17.  Save DC 22.  *Mossmutter has one extra use per day of these due to his Subsumed Minds.  As he loses Subsumed Minds, he loses one use per day of each of these SLAs.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a mold wyrm must hit a creature at least one size smaller than itself with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the opponent in the following round.

Insubstantial Anatomy (Ex): Since a mold wyrm is essentially a mass of separated plant matter held together by positive energy, it is difficult to know where to attack the creature. Any melee or ranged attack directed at a mold wyrm has a 50% miss chance. The blow or missile may pass through the creature\'s body without harming it. Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature.

Spore Cough (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, Mossmutter can release a cloud of greenish-gray spores. This spore cough is treated as a 30-foot-cone breath weapon. Creatures in the area must make a Fortitude save each round for 4 rounds (DC 27, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing (they can take no actions, though they defend themselves normall). A character who chokes for 2 or more consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage each round. In addition, any creature within the area must make a single DC 27 Fortitude save or contract Keraptis spore blight (see below). The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Keraptis Spore Blight: Inhaled DC 27, incubation 1 minute, 1d6 Con. Victims that die from Keraptis spore blight transform into Mossmutter's Subsumed Minds and acquire the Skinpuppet template upon their death. This is a supernatural disease; successful saves do not allow the character to recover. Only magical healing can save the character.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A mold wyrm can try to swallow a grabbed opponent by making a successful grapple check. Once inside the plant’s mass, the opponent takes 4d4 points of bludgeoning damage and must succeed on a DC 27 Fortitude save or be exposed to Mossmutter's spores. A new save is required each round inside the plant. The save DC is Constitution-based.

A swallowed creature can climb out of the mass with a successful grapple check. This returns it to the plant’s maw, where another successful grapple check is needed to get free. A swallowed creature can also cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 20 points of damage to the mold wyrm's interior (AC 13). Once the creature exits, the plant’s regenerative capacity closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

Mossmutter's interior can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller opponents.


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2009)

I just noticed that Mossmutter has 17 HD and regular mold wyrms have 12 HD.  We could argue that he should be advanced, but I think perhaps that should really be accounted for with positive levels due to his Subsumed Minds.  What do you think?


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## Echohawk (Apr 23, 2009)

Yeah, I think that it makes sense to assume that the 17HD is result of the Subsumed Minds, rather than advance Mossmutter even further.


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2009)

Went ahead and added positive levels.  

We should next compare the original Mossmutter's SLAs to our false K template and choose what Mossmutter should get.  I notice that the Mossmutter has a CL of 17 for his SLAs, so perhaps we should add to the false K hierarchical mind ability that the CL increases by 1 per 10 Subsumed Minds.  (Positive levels seem to do nothing for SLAs.)


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2009)

Ok, here's the original Mossmutter:


> Spell-like Abilities (at 17th level): 1/day--cloudkill, death fog, Evard's black tentacles, fireball, knock, mirror image, prismatic wall, reverse gravity, Serten's spell immunity, slow, stoneskin, true seeing, wind wall; 2/day--charm person, death spell, finger of death, polymorph other; 3/day--acid arrow, cone of cold, lightning bolt, magic missile.




From our false K template, it looks like we should start with (before adding the 51 Subsumed Minds):
all false K: dimension door, fireball, magic missile, wall of force 
0th level - mage hand, read magic
1st - charm person, magic missile*
2nd - acid arrow*, mirror image
3rd - lightning bolt*, slow
4th - polymorph
5th - cone of cold*
6th - circle of death*

It seems like our false K template has more lower-level SLAs and just not as many.  We could revisit that or just leave it as it is.  When I've been forced to choose between SLAs, I've gone for the one that the original Mossmutter could use more.  I suggest that we put the extra uses due to the 51 Subsumed minds on the ones marked with *.  What do you think?


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## Echohawk (Apr 24, 2009)

freyar said:


> I notice that the Mossmutter has a CL of 17 for his SLAs, so perhaps we should add to the false K hierarchical mind ability that the CL increases by 1 per 10 Subsumed Minds.  (Positive levels seem to do nothing for SLAs.)



Agreed with that approach. (And I'm vaguely surprised to learn that positive levels don't boost SLAs)



freyar said:


> It seems like our false K template has more lower-level SLAs and just not as many.  We could revisit that or just leave it as it is.  When I've been forced to choose between SLAs, I've gone for the one that the original Mossmutter could use more.  I suggest that we put the extra uses due to the 51 Subsumed minds on the ones marked with *.  What do you think?



I've just taken another look at the original False Keraptis "template" and it doesn't seem as if the original Mossmutter follows that _at all_ .

I suppose that Mossmutter's alternative spells could be a result of its origins as a gnomish wizard though, since the original FK "template" says that available choices of spells "include spells from the character's own spellbook  or priest sphere (if applicable), plus the following list [...]".

So while I think your list of SLAs is fine, I don't think we should be scared to change some of them to match the original Mossmutter more closely if those SLAs seem appropriate. Possibly in that case we might want to add a note to the FK template conversion that there is often some variation in the FK's SLAs.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2009)

Well, positive levels add spell slots and effective HD whenever HD is used to determine something, but since the false K template has a "static" CL of 12, they wouldn't necessarily increase CL.  Let's make a note to add that to the Hierarchical Mind.

Regarding SLA's, here's another idea.  Normally, a gnome wizard false K would also have wizard casting.  So why don't we note that Mossmutter is nonstandard and some of the gnome's prepared spells were converted to SLAs during the imprinting process?  Mossmutter is already a bit wonky.  In that case, I propose we add black tentacles, knock, stoneskin, and wind wall 1/day each.  These are already on the false K list and probably not overpowering.  Sound ok?


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## Echohawk (Apr 25, 2009)

Yes, that sounds good. Black tentacles in particular seems thematic.


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2009)

Ok, I've edited in the special abilities and descriptive text.  If you like the adapted Hierarchical Mind, Partial Imprint, Spores, and description, we can finish up with skills and tactics.  We could also reconsider Mossmutter's feats.

(I also realized that save DCs increased due to the positive levels' adding effective HD.)


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## Echohawk (Apr 26, 2009)

Mossmutter is looking good (although I'm not the best person to ask to check the detailed maths). Does the DC increase from effective HD mean that the False Keraptis template doesn't need to be fixed to deal with higher DCs after all?

One change to Mossmutter's hierarchical mind is that it can't transfer if Mossmutter dies: "If Mossmutter dies, so too does his hierarchical mind. Any remaining skin puppets immediately split and burst, forming new, quarter-strength, passive-state mold wyrms. (Because of Mossmutter's unique inception, none of his subsumed minds have the capacity to contain his fungoid consciousness.)"

For the tactics section, this text might be useful:



			
				Return to White Plume Mountain said:
			
		

> *Melee Tactics*
> If the PCs have encountered any group of skin puppets prior to entering this chamber, Mossmutter has already summoned the other two groups (6d4+12 skin puppets) to his side as backup for the six who always work here. If the heroes bypassed all three skin puppet rings, the False Keraptis mobilizes them as soon as the party arrives. All 9d4+18 skin puppets begin moving to this chamber, arriving at a rate of six per round, beginning 3 rounds after Mossmutter notices the characters.
> The False Keraptis can bend his gray, scaly length with ease to position his mouth anywhere within a 50-foot-radius of his base. He uses his rows of gnashing
> teeth to bite opponents or coughs his spores over a group of foes. Meanwhile, Saprophis engages the nearest fighter with Frostrazor, the fungus hulk attacks any
> ...




Drat. I've just discovered that Mossmutter is larger than we thought. He is described as a "50-foot-tall, 10-foot-diameter tower" that is rooted to the ground. Would that mean he is larger than Huge?


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> Mossmutter is looking good (although I'm not the best person to ask to check the detailed maths). Does the DC increase from effective HD mean that the False Keraptis template doesn't need to be fixed to deal with higher DCs after all?




Well, I wanted to fix the caster level in the false K template, which (oddly enough) doesn't have anything to do with DC, really.



> One change to Mossmutter's hierarchical mind is that it can't transfer if Mossmutter dies: "If Mossmutter dies, so too does his hierarchical mind. Any remaining skin puppets immediately split and burst, forming new, quarter-strength, passive-state mold wyrms. (Because of Mossmutter's unique inception, none of his subsumed minds have the capacity to contain his fungoid consciousness.)"




I'll add that and something similar for tactics.



> Drat. I've just discovered that Mossmutter is larger than we thought. He is described as a "50-foot-tall, 10-foot-diameter tower" that is rooted to the ground. Would that mean he is larger than Huge?




Sounds Gargantuan to me.  I guess we should advance him; ironically, the lowest HD Gargantuan mold wyrm in our conversion is 17HD!  I'll see if I can get to that later today.

By rooted to the ground, you mean he can't move around?  He just gets more and more complicated!


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## Echohawk (Apr 27, 2009)

freyar said:


> By rooted to the ground, you mean he can't move around?  He just gets more and more complicated!



Apparently so, yes. It seems that in the battle with Mossmutter in RtWPM, Mossmutter relies heavily on his minions, seemingly including at least one gnome that hasn't been subsumed but whom Mossmutter has some sort of telepathic communication with which doesn't seem to be entirely explained by the mechanics of either moldwyms or the False Keraptis template. I'll investigate this in more detail a little later today.


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## freyar (Apr 27, 2009)

I think Mossmutter has reached the pinnacle of exception-based design!   I'll try to advance him and cut his movement rate down (if I get a chance today).  Unless the telepathy is really important, I may be inclined to ignore that part.  Anyway, with luck, we can have him done when Shade gets back.


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## freyar (Apr 27, 2009)

I think I've got him advanced, but I need to rejigger the text and special abilities.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2009)

Lookin' good!


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2009)

Heheh, we tried to get a lot done.  It's a big chunk to go back and read, so I'll try to write up a summary for you in a bit.

Edit: Summary here!
Subsumed Mind template
Adjust CR of false K template upwards for extra Subsumed Minds
Add Int +2 to the false K template to go with the Cha boost
In Hierarchical Mind, also increase CL of SLAs by 1 for every 10 Subsumed Minds
Mossmutter (not quite done).

Echohawk, was there anything else we wanted to change about the false K template?


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## Echohawk (Apr 28, 2009)

Without re-reading the thread, I vaguely recall suggesting that a False Keraptis which subsumes a creature with more than 20HD should probably transfer the seat of the Heirarchical Mind to the new mind.

I haven't yet checked on Mossmutter's mobility. I'll do that now.


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## Echohawk (Apr 28, 2009)

Um, by "checked on Mossmutter's mobility" I mean "checked on Mossmutter's telepathy".

Mossmutter does indeed seem to have the ability to see through the eyes of his gnomish servant Saprophis as well as communicate with him telepathically. Saprophis is quite specifically _not_ a subsumed mind, so quite how Mossmutter is able to communicate with the gnome doesn't seem to be explained anywhere. There is also no reason given as to why the gnome has decided to obediently serve a mysteriously-telephathic delusion mold wyrm...

I think this aspect of Mossmutter can probably be safely ignored.

On the plus side, Saprophis is carrying Mossmutter's weapon McGuffin (Frostrazor the Unneccessarily Complicated) so at least we don't need to worry about converting that in order to finish Mossmutter


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> Without re-reading the thread, I vaguely recall suggesting that a False Keraptis which subsumes a creature with more than 20HD should probably transfer the seat of the Heirarchical Mind to the new mind.




I did write this into the Subsumed Mind template, I think, when noting that creatures of more than 20HD can't become Subsumed Minds.



Echohawk said:


> Um, by "checked on Mossmutter's mobility" I mean "checked on Mossmutter's telepathy".
> 
> Mossmutter does indeed seem to have the ability to see through the eyes of his gnomish servant Saprophis as well as communicate with him telepathically. Saprophis is quite specifically _not_ a subsumed mind, so quite how Mossmutter is able to communicate with the gnome doesn't seem to be explained anywhere. There is also no reason given as to why the gnome has decided to obediently serve a mysteriously-telephathic delusion mold wyrm...
> 
> ...




I'm all for ignoring all this! 

I'm going to check a couple other threads, then go back and try to finish Mossmutter.  I may need to wait until tonight to check his space/reach, though.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2009)

I think Mossmutter is basically done except for skills and feats.  Should also double check the math.

I'm also thinking about removing the camouflage and passive state abilities, since he's rooted to the ground.  I could also potentially see giving him some fast healing if we take away the speedy healing of the passive state.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'm also thinking about removing the camouflage and passive state abilities, since he's rooted to the ground. I could also potentially see giving him some fast healing if we take away the speedy healing of the passive state.




I could get on board with those ideas.

Otherwise, are these ready for Homebrewin'?


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

I'd say (1) there are a few minor changes (see summary post above) for the false K template, (2) the Subsumed Mind template is done, I think, and ready for homebrews, and (3) Mossmutter is not quite done but could be homebrewed.  If you want, though, I can try to finish him probably over the weekend.


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## Echohawk (May 1, 2009)

I agree with Freyar's summary. And look, ten pages of thread later, we're almost back to the Skinpuppets!


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'd say (1) there are a few minor changes (see summary post above) for the false K template, (2) the Subsumed Mind template is done, I think, and ready for homebrews, and (3) Mossmutter is not quite done but could be homebrewed.  If you want, though, I can try to finish him probably over the weekend.




I'll just wait until you're ready.


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

I think Mossmutter is done, unless someone wants to change skills or feats.

Shade, it would be helpful if you checked the math (remember that there is a +5 bonus to attack, skills, effective HD for DC, and saves and +25 hp from the positive levels).


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Why are the SLAs all set to a static DC 22?


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

I don't see a static DC 22 anywhere, but I do notice that the DCs are off.  (They're static because Mossmutter is unique, though I guess they can change if he loses positive levels.)  Cha-based DCs should be 10+11 (effective HD 22 from 5 positive levels) + 4 Cha = 25, and Con-based DCs should be 32.  Look right?


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Correct.  But for SLAs, the DCs are simply 10 + Cha mod (4) + spell level.  In your Mossmutter writeup, you list...



> Spell-like Abilities: 1/day - dimension door, fireball, wall of force, mage hand, read magic, charm person, mirror image, slow, polymorph, black tentacles, knock, stoneskin, wind wall; 2/day - acid arrow*, lightning bolt*, cone of cold*, circle of death*; 3/day - magic missile*
> Caster level 17. *Save DC 22*. *Mossmutter has one extra use per day of these due to his Subsumed Minds. As he loses Subsumed Minds, he loses one use per day of each of these SLAs.




The bolded bit is my source of confusion.


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## freyar (May 5, 2009)

Oh, yeah, you're right.  I think I just messed up the SLA DCs is all.


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## Shade (May 6, 2009)

No worries.   Updated Mossmutter.

Also, added Subsumed Mind.

Updated False K.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Adjust CR of false K template upwards for extra Subsumed Minds




Kindly explain.


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## freyar (May 6, 2009)

We figured that the false K gets a number of benefits for having Subsumed Minds (for ex, a positive level per 10 Subsumed Minds, etc).  So we thought the false K CR should go up +1 for every X Subsumed Minds.

Oh!  Remembered another thing: Echohawk discovered that Killjoy should have 30 Subsumed Minds, so he needs to be bumped up a little.


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## Shade (May 7, 2009)

freyar said:


> We figured that the false K gets a number of benefits for having Subsumed Minds (for ex, a positive level per 10 Subsumed Minds, etc).  So we thought the false K CR should go up +1 for every X Subsumed Minds.




X = 10?



freyar said:


> Oh!  Remembered another thing: Echohawk discovered that Killjoy should have 30 Subsumed Minds, so he needs to be bumped up a little.




Would you mind handling that since you seem closer to the templates at this point?


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## freyar (May 8, 2009)

X = 10 or 20, maybe.  Do you think 1 positive level plus a few extra benefits is worth +1 CR?

Sure, not sure when I'll have time to bump Killjoy, though.  I'll see if I can over the weekend, but I'm crazy busy ATM.


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Yeah, +1 per 20 is probably more realistic.


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

Let's go with that.

I might be able to get to Killjoy tonight if I get caught up on the rest of the threads...


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Here we go:

Killjoy, False Keraptis Efreeti
Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire)
Hit Dice: 10d8+35 (80 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+20
Attack: Slam +18 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire) or Blackrazor +21 melee (2d6+12/19-20)
Full Attack: 2 slams +18 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire) or Blackrazor +21/+16 melee (2d6+12/19-20)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./ 10 ft.
Special Attacks: Change size, heat, hierarchical mind, partial imprint, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Changes shape, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, plane shift, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., vulnerability to cold
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +12
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 19
Skills: Bluff +20, Craft (any one) +17, Concentration +18, Diplomacy +11, Disguise +7 (+9 acting), Intimidate +22, Listen +18, Move Silently +19, Sense Motive +18, Spellcraft +17, Spot +18
Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative (B), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (scorching ray)
Environment: Elemental Plane of Fire
Organization: Solitary or hierarchical mind (Killjoy plus up to 30 subsumed minds)
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items
Alignment: Lawful evil
Advancement: 11–15 HD (Large); 16–30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

Killjoy has 30 Subsumed Minds.  The benefits of these are reflected in his statistics, and he additionally receives a +3 bonus to any unlisted skill check or ability check.  The save DCs of his Su abilities are increased by +1.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray (1 ray only); 3/day—invisibility, magic missile, wall of fire (DC 18); 2/day-black tentacles*, lightning bolt*, mirror image*;1/day—acid arrow, arcane mark, circle of death, cloudkill, cone of cold, dimension door, fireball, grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, knock, permanent image (DC 20), read magic, sleep, slow, stoneskin, touch of fatigue, wall of force, wind wall, true seeing. Caster level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. *These spell-like abilities have one extra use per day due to Killjoy's Subsumed Minds.  As he loses Subsumed Minds, he loses one use per day of each of these SLAs.


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

Fantastic!

Updated.

Are we actually (gasp!) finished with the World's Most Painful Nested Conversions?


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Still need to do the Skinpuppets...


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## Echohawk (May 12, 2009)

Dare I point out that the Subsumed Mind template also doesn't have a sample creature yet?


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

asdkl;fggja'sdjkg'ea] <imprinted on forehead>


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Tell me what critter to subsume, and I'll do that example in the next couple days.


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## Echohawk (May 12, 2009)

For some reason, many of the subsumed creatures in the original adventure are gnomes, so I think I'd go for a vanilla gnome, even though that's a little boring. Heck I'm not sure the Subsumed Mind template really needs an example, but I just couldn't resist pointing out that it didn't have one


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

Subsume all the gnomes you'd like, freyar.


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## Echohawk (May 15, 2009)

I've just spotted a minor error for Killjoy -- I think his "Environment" should be "White Plume Mountain" rather than "Elemental Plane of Fire".


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

Updated.

Since he's not a Native outsider, I kept the Plane of Fire parenthetically should he be the victim of a banishment effect.


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

That sounds fine.  Subsumed gnomes will probably come over the weekend.


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## freyar (May 18, 2009)

Sign on Killjoy's door: "Do not disturb, subsuming gnomes!"

Just noticed: under AC, can we list that the Subsumed Mind keeps its armor proficiencies?

*Subsumed Mind Gnome Warrior 1*
Hit Dice:	1d8+2 (6 hp)
Initiative:	+0
Speed:	20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class:	16 (+1 size, +4 chain shirt, +1 light shield), touch 11, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple:	+1/–3
Attack:	Longsword +1 melee (1d6/19–20) or light crossbow +2 ranged (1d6/19–20)
Full Attack:	Longsword +1 melee (1d6/19–20) or light crossbow +2 ranged (1d6/19–20)
Space/Reach:	5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:  Instrument of Hierarchical Mind
Special Qualities:	Gnome traits (except Sp abilities), Single Actions Only, Hierarchical Mind Awareness
Saves:	Fort +4, Ref +0, Will –1
Abilities:	Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 8
Skills:	-
Feats:	Weapon Focus (light crossbow)
Environment: Any.
Organization: Solitary, ganglion (2-6), or hierarchical mind (3-40 subsumed minds plus possibly false Keraptis).
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None.
Alignment: Always evil (same as associated false Keraptis).
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: —


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## Shade (May 18, 2009)

Excellent!  Updated.

Are we ready for skin puppets?


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## freyar (May 19, 2009)

I believe so.  Now I just have to figure out where the original text on them went to...


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## Echohawk (May 19, 2009)

Here.


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## freyar (May 20, 2009)

Thanks!  You always know where everything is! 

Looking at these, the text reads like a template, but the stats read like a monster.  Interestingly, the stats list them as 3 ft tall (Small), like gnomes!


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## Echohawk (May 20, 2009)

The template/creature overlap is not suprising. After all, these are a special case of the "Subsumed Mind" template adapted for Mossmutter in order to produce the Skinpuppets. I can see either a template or a creature working here.


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## freyar (May 20, 2009)

I guess it's easiest to use a template.  Start with the Subsumed Mind, have the type change, add in a couple mold-wyrmish qualities.  What do you think?


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

Sounds good, with gnomes as the sample creatures.


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

> Bone fragments incorporated into the skin puppet’s fingertips serve as claws for physical attacks, inflicting ld4 points of damage per successful hit. Furthermore, the gellike material of the creature’s inner body seeps down over the claws constantly, inflicting a lesser version of the mold wyrm’s spore cough on those who come into contact with it. Thus, every time the skin puppet inflicts damage with its claws, the victim must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or suffer ld6 points of additional damage and cough violently for 1 round. While coughing, the victim receives a -2 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and proficiency checks. Multiple failures in the same round result in cumulative penalties; that is, a 4 penalty for two failed saving throws, -6 for three, and so forth.) No secondary infection results from such contact, however.




A water-down, melee-centric version of this?

Spore Cough (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds a mold wyrm can release a cloud of greenish-gray spores. This spore cough is treated as a 30-foot-cone breath weapon. Creatures in the area must make a Fortitude save each round for 4 rounds (DC 24, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing (they can take no actions, though they defend themselves normall). A character who chokes for 2 or more consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage each round. In addition, any creature within the area must make a single DC 24 Fortitude save or contract spore blight (see below). The save DCs are Constitution-based. 

Spore Blight: Inhaled DC 24, incubation 1 minute, 1d6 Con. Victims that die from spore blight transform into mold wyrms upon their death. This is a supernatural disease; successful saves do not allow the character to recover. Only magical healing can save the character.


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## freyar (May 28, 2009)

Oh, these kind of slipped my mind!    I think you're spot on about that, maybe just change the no actions bit to a penalty and drop the spore blight.  Then we just have to add claws.

I suppose I'll try to modify the subsumed minds into skinpuppets soon, maybe if I get a chance tomorrow or on the weekend.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

A first go on skin puppets, starting with the Subsumed Mind template.  Strike-throughs will be changed later.  Italicized stuff can be up for debate. 

*Skin Puppet (template)*

Skin Puppets are the servants of the false Keraptis mold wyrm Mossmutter, and they act as Mossmutter's Subsumed Minds.  See the entry for Mossmutter, the false Keraptis template, and the Subsumed Mind template for more information.

Creating a Skin Puppet

"Skin Puppet" is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature with an Intelligence score which has been affected by the partial imprint ability of the false Keraptis Mossmutter (henceforth referred to as the base creature).

Creatures of more than 20 racial HD cannot become Skin Puppets. If such a creature is affected by the partial imprint ability of a false Keraptis, the hierarchical mind will likely move to the more powerful body, leaving the original false Keraptis body as a Subsumed Mind.

A Skin Puppet has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The base creature’s size is unchanged, and the type changes to plant.

Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1).  Change all Hit Dice to d8.

Speed: The _natural_ speed and movement forms of the Skin Puppet are unchanged.  _Supernatural forms of movement are lost._

Armor Class: _The natural armor of a Skin Puppet is unchanged._ A Skin Puppet retains its armor proficiencies.

Base Attack: A Skin Puppet has a base attack bonus as normal for a plant of its hit dice (Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice, as cleric).

Attacks: A Skin Puppet retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature and gains two claw attacks (if it did not already have them). These attacks are subject to a -1 insight penalty.

Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal damage normally. A claw attack deals damage depending on the Skin Puppet’s size. (If the base creature already had claw attacks with its hands, use the Skin Puppet claw damage only if it’s better.)
Size	_Damage_
Diminutive or Fine	1
Tiny	1d2
Small	1d3
Medium	1d4
Large	1d6
Huge	1d8
Gargantuan	2d6
Colossal	2d8

Special Attacks: A Skin Puppet retains the base creature's Ex special attacks except for those gained from class abilities. It loses all Su, Sp, and Ps special attacks. It also gains the following special attacks.

_Instrument of Hierarchical Mind (Su):_ A Skin Puppet can act with the will of Mossmutter's Hierarchical Mind. If Mossmutter directs the Skin Puppet, the Skin Puppet may take actions as a normal creature. In addition, if Mossmutter chooses, it may channel spell-like abilities through its Skin Puppets. This functions as if the Skin Puppet had used one of Mossmutter's spell-like abilities, using Mossmutter's statistics. Each Skin Puppet may channel only one spell-like ability per round.

_Claw Spores:_ Creatures damaged by a Skin Puppet's claw attack must make a Fortitude save or spend that round choking and coughing (they can take no actions, though they defend themselves normally). A character who chokes for 2 or more consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage each round.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Special Qualities: A Skin Puppet retains the base creature's Ex special qualities except for those gained from class abilities. It loses all Su, Sp, and Ps special attacks. It also gains the following special qualities.

_Single Actions Only (Ex):_ Skin Puppets have little will of their own and can perform only a single move action or attack action each round, except when they are directed by the Hierarchical Mind (see Instrument of Hierarchical Mind above).

_Hierarchical Mind Awareness (Su):_ All Skin Puppets and Mossmutter share the awareness of the Hierarchical Mind. A Skin Puppet cannot be flanked unless all Skin Puppets within line of sight are flanked.

Saves: The Skin Puppet has base save bonuses appropriate for a plant of its hit dice (good Fortitude saves, poor Will and Reflex saves).

Abilities:The base creature's ability scores change as follows: Int - .  _Other changes?_

Skills: A Skin Puppet has no skills.

Feats: The Skin Puppet keeps the feats of the base creature but may only use those for which it still meets the prerequisites.

Environment: Any.
Organization: Solitary, ganglion (2-6), or hierarchical mind (3-40 skin puppets plus possibly Mossmutter)
Challenge Rating: Depends on hit dice, as follows:
HD CR
1/2 1/6
1 1/3
2–3 1
4–5 2
6–7 3
8–9 4
10–11 5
12–14 6
15–17 7
18–20 8
Treasure: None.
Alignment: Always evil.
Advancement: Same as the base creature.
Level Adjustment: —.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

There's a working draft for the skin puppets.  Note that we also might want to bump the claw damage, as the original Small skin puppets have 1d4.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Great start!   Added to Homebrews.

I agree with bumping the claw damage.

I could see a Dex penalty and possibly a Con boost.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

-2 Dex, +2 Con?  Bumping the claws is good, then, just one step on each line.

What did you think about movement types?  Maybe we should just leave it as for the Subsumed Minds.  (And, frankly, with the loss of Su SAs and SQs, maybe that implies loss of Su movement -- I didn't even think about that before.)

Any natural armor?  I could see some.

We should put in that skin puppets become mold wyrms on death, but maybe that's flavor.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Yeah, I think you're right about the implied loss of Su movement.

I'd say no to natural armor.  It sounds like these things are barely held together and just waiting to rupture.   Plus, they had AC 10 originally.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

Ok, let's leave the movement line as it was for Subsumed Minds and let any loss of Su movement be implied.  That gives a DM some wiggle room if Su flight is really desired.

No natural is fine for me.  

Do you agree on putting the "death transformation" into the flavor text?


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Yeah, I think flavor text is best.

Updated.   What's left?


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

I think we can take out this line "If such a creature is affected by the partial imprint ability of a false Keraptis, the hierarchical mind will likely move to the more powerful body, leaving the original false Keraptis body as a Subsumed Mind" and put in that "Mossmutter's spores cannot convert such a powerful creature into a Skin Puppet, and they kill their victim instead."  

Also, we should put in a line in the "death flavor paragraph" that "Upon Mossmutter's destruction, all Skin Puppets immediately die as well, becoming ordinary mold wyrms."

Edit: Oh, we need to bump the claw damage!


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2009)

If we're all happy with it, I guess it just needs a sample creature!


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

Bring on the gnome "volunteer".


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2009)

Shade said:


> Bring on the gnome "volunteer".



 I'll try to perform the spore implants tomorrow.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Those tricksy gnomes, avoiding the inevitable.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

More like grant cuts to my secret plan to dominate the world with skin puppets!  But I'll be back at it soon.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

*sample skin puppet*

I'm just basing this on the subsumed mind sample.  Also, I noticed that I forgot the "Small Humanoid (gnome)" line before the HD in the subsumed mind sample.  Oops!

Also, we should change the alignment of the skin puppets to CE to match Mossmutter.

Shade, can you check over this?  Especially the attacks; I couldn't remember or find in the SRD the interaction between manufactured and natural weapons in the full attack line (so I followed the skeleton).

Finally, should we add a line to the subsumed mind and skin puppet templates that they can be reversed with wish or miracle?


Skin Puppet Gnome Warrior 1
Small Plant
Hit Dice: 1d8+3 (7 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, -1 Dex, +4 chain shirt, +1 light shield), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–4
Attack: Longsword +0 melee (1d6/19–20) or claw +0 melee (1d4 plus claw spores) or light crossbow -1 ranged (1d6/19–20)
Full Attack: Longsword +0 melee (1d6/19–20) or 2 claws +0 melee (1d4 plus claw spores) or light crossbow -1 ranged (1d6/19–20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Instrument of hierarchical mind
Special Qualities: Gnome traits (except Sp abilities), hierarchical mind awareness, single actions only
Saves: Fort +5, Ref -1, Will –1
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 9, Con 16, Int —, Wis 9, Cha 8
Skills: —
Feats: Weapon Focus (light crossbow)
Environment: Any.
Organization: Solitary, ganglion (2-6), or hierarchical mind (3-40 skin puppets plus possibly Mossmutter).
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None.
Alignment: Chaotic evil.
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Good points.  Updated skin puppet and subsumed mind.



> Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

In that case, let's change the skin puppet full attack to 

Full Attack: Longsword +0 melee (1d6/19–20) and claw -5 melee (1d4 plus claw spores) or 2 claws +0 melee (1d4 plus claw spores) or light crossbow -1 ranged (1d6/19–20)

I figure they can only use 1 claw if they also have a sword. 

Then these might just be done!


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

I think so!   Free at last from the time-consuming, nested confusion of Keraptis?


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

I believe that this might actually be it!  (I won't breathe sigh of relief until Echohawk can check in, though! )

I think this was Keraptis's plan all along --- not to trap adventurers but monster designers.   That was worse than a maze spell.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Indeed!  It felt like being tag-teamed by several morkoths.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Indeed!  It felt like being tag-teamed by several morkoths.



The wardrake wasn't so bad compared to this. 

Ok, have to stop having so much fun with this one --- it will make Keraptis angry.


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## Echohawk (Jun 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> I believe that this might actually be it!  (I won't breathe sigh of relief until Echohawk can check in, though! )



I'm happy. And relieved this bunch are finally over


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## Leopold (Jun 11, 2009)

Lock the thread and call it a day/week/year?


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Let's celebrate the thread's newfound freedom with something ridiculously easy!

_Hiding behind one of the columns is a strange creature built like an upright lizard; at the end of its tail is a cluster of inhuman eyes and where its head should be is a large mouth with numerous rows of sharp metal teeth. It leaps out when a character comes close, giving its targets a -2 penalty to surprise rolls._

*Quickbiter:* AC 2; MV 15; HD 10; hp 78; THAC0 11; #AT 1; Dmg 2d6 (bite); SA bite acts as a sword of sharpness, +2 to initiative; SD +2 or better weapon to hit; SZ L (14' long); ML Fanatic (17); Int semi (2); AL NE; XP 4000

Note: If it hits with an attack roll of 18 or higher, it randomly bites off one of its targets limbs (as a sword of sharpness). The creature is immune to all fear-type attacks. Its metallic teeth can be used as materials for making a sword of sharpness. It is not known where Lyzandred found this creature; it might be from the regions near Blackmoor or perhaps from another plane entirely.

Originally appeared in Crypt of Lyzandred the Mad (1998).


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Start with the basics: Large Magical Beast, 10HD.  DR/magic, good Dex probably, decent natural armor, and some kind of severing bite (like Fenris wolf?).  Sound right?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 12, 2009)

The description of this creature also sounds like that of the ethereal marauder.  I wonder if they're related.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Nice idea!  And these might even be extraplanar --- should we assign them that subtype?  In any case, the ethereal marauder is a good place to look for ability scores. Advancing one to Large gives Str 22, Dex 10, Con 15,  with +5 natural armor.  Given the init and higher AC of the original critter, I'd be happy with bumping Dex back to 12 or even 14, as well as increasing natural some.  Also, Int is lower.  Mental stats: Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 11?


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> Nice idea!  And these might even be extraplanar --- should we assign them that subtype?  In any case, the ethereal marauder is a good place to look for ability scores. Advancing one to Large gives Str 22, Dex 10, Con 15,  with +5 natural armor.  Given the init and higher AC of the original critter, I'd be happy with bumping Dex back to 12 or even 14, as well as increasing natural some.  Also, Int is lower.  Mental stats: Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 11?




I'd hold off on Extraplanar, (a) it doesn't make much difference and (b) hey, maybe it is native to your gameworld.

If its 78 hit points are representative of a typical Quickbiter they suggest a higher Con. A 10HD AD&D monster would normally average 45 hp. A high Con may go with the steel teeth as well - perhaps its bones and skin are metallic as well?

So, Con 17 or 19?

I like Dex 12 or 14, and probably a better natural armour than an Advanced marauder - NA +7 or +8? It looks obvious to me that this creature's meant to be a mean melee combatant.

Also, the eyecluster tail just screams "all-around vision" to me. Good luck flanking one of these beasts.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Extraplanar can be something we think about.  I just noticed the line in the original text that they might be from another plane and liked the connection to the ethereal marauder that GrayLinnorm noticed.

Well, with the d10 HD in 3e, it's already averaging 75hp with Con 15, but I could definitely see Con 17, maybe 19.

Dex 12, +8 natural?

Agreed to all-around vision.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> Extraplanar can be something we think about.  I just noticed the line in the original text that they might be from another plane and liked the connection to the ethereal marauder that GrayLinnorm noticed.
> 
> Well, with the d10 HD in 3e, it's already averaging 75hp with Con 15, but I could definitely see Con 17, maybe 19.




Considering D&D3E's hit point inflation they should end up with more than 78 hp.

If it has ~78hp with d8 hit dice in AD&D, we could aim for around 78hp times the ratio of a d10/d8 hit dice for 3E.

Let's see, that's 78*5.5/4.5 = 95hp.

That's the average of 10d10+40, which translates as Con 19.



freyar said:


> Dex 12, +8 natural?
> 
> Agreed to all-around vision.




I'm tempted to give it Dex 14 and +7 natural, (a) in case we want any Feats with a Dex 13 requirements and (b) the NA equals chainmail's bonus (5) plus the Large NA adjustment (+2), which seems appropriate.

So, at the moment I'm supporting:

Str 22, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 2, natural armour +7.

I'm thinking their mental stats are probably similar to a Gray Render, another Large, dumb 10HD magical brute.

Wisdom 13, Charisma 9?

I was tempted to increase the damage of their bite attack to 2d8 or 3d6, since they only have one attack so it needs to count, but if we give it a nice Sharpness special attack and maybe some kind of critical augmentation (threat range, damage multiplier) it would be enough.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2009)

Hmmm, how about Str 22, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9, just to be a little different?  I guess I'm coming around to the high Dex due to the initiative bonus it has.


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## Leopold (Jun 13, 2009)

Unless you give it Improved Init as a feat?


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, how about Str 22, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9, just to be a little different?  I guess I'm coming around to the high Dex due to the initiative bonus it has.




Fine by me, Str 22, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9 it is then.



Leopold said:


> Unless you give it Improved Init as a feat?




Improved Initiative isn't terribly useful overall, I'd prefer more directly combatworthy feats like Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical and Power Attack.

Hmm, those seem a pretty appropriate selection.

Now what are we doing about its bite attack, it would do with a critical augmentation, as I said. My first idea was giving it the same stats as a Large Longsword - 2d6/18-20 or maybe a scythe's critical damage multiplier - 2d6/×4, but upon reflection I prefer something in the middle.

Bite 2d6/19-20  ×3?

Its strength gives it a +9 damage bonus and if we give it Improved Critical (bite) the threat range increases to 17-20.

Attack: Bite +15 melee (2d6+9/17-20×3)

That's pretty mean, but I think it's supposed to be.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2009)

If we're already increasing the threat range with Augmented Critical, isn't Imp Crit kind of a waste of a feat?  I mean, we can just change Augmented Crit.  I view Imp Crit (and Imp Nat Attack, etc) as ways for DMs to customize monsters, not as good feats for "standard" monster design.


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## Cleon (Jun 14, 2009)

freyar said:


> If we're already increasing the threat range with Augmented Critical, isn't Imp Crit kind of a waste of a feat?  I mean, we can just change Augmented Crit.  I view Imp Crit (and Imp Nat Attack, etc) as ways for DMs to customize monsters, not as good feats for "standard" monster design.




Yes, I was thinking of giving it something other than Improved Critical if we decide on an augmented critical special attack, possibly Great Cleave (just because you rarely see it, probably because it's of limited utility) or, more practically, Improved Sunder.

Speaking of sundering, I'm thinking its metal teeth may give a limited ability to bypass hardness, but not as good as an adamantine weapon - say, ignoring hardness less than 10, so it can chomp through spear shafts like candy canes and chew through rock?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2009)

Ignoring hardness, maybe.  Let's see what the others think.


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## Cleon (Jun 14, 2009)

Okay now, let's rough out some stats for this beauty:

*Quickbiter*
Large Magical Beast (*Extraplanar?*)
*Hit Dice:* 10d10+40 (95 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares) *?*
*Armor Class:* 18 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +10/+20
*Attack:* Bite +15 melee (2d6+9/19-20×3)* ?*
*Full Attack:* Bite +15 melee (2d6+9/19-20×3) *?*
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Augmented critical, penetrating bite, severing bite*?*
*Special Qualities:* All-Around Vision, darkvision 60 ft., damage resistance 10/magic*?*, immune to fear, low-light vision 
*Saves:* Fort +11, Ref +9, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 22, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills:* Jump, Hide, Listen, Spot *?*
*Feats:* Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Sunder, Power Attack *?*
*Environment:* *?*
*Organization:* *?*
*Challenge Rating:* *?*
*Treasure:* *?*
*Alignment:* Usually neutral evil *?*
*Advancement:* 11–17 HD (Large); 18–30 HD (Huge)*?* [just to be different]
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A strange creature built like an upright lizard; at the end of its tail is a cluster of inhuman eyes and where its head should be is a large mouth with numerous rows of sharp metal teeth._

A typical quickbiter stands 8 feet tall and is 14 feet long from nose to tail, it weighs about 700 pounds. *?*
*
Combat
*Quickbiters prefer to attack from ambush, leaping out to bite as many opponents as it can reach. They are bloodthirsty combatants, often fighting to the death.* ?*

*All-Around Vision (Ex):* Quickbiters can not be flanked. These creatures can turn around with startling speed, and the eyes on the end of its tail allow them to see in all directions simultaneously.* ?*

*Augmented Critical (Ex):* A quickbiter's bite attack threatens a critical on a roll of 19-20 and does triple damage if the critical is confirmed.* ?*

*Penetrating Bite (Ex):* The bite of a quickbiter can slice through soft metal or stone, ignoring hardness less than 10. *?

Severing Bite (Ex): ?
**
Skills
*Racial bonus to Hide and Spot?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 14, 2009)

Given its limited intelligence, I'd go with always, rather than often, for alignment.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2009)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Given its limited intelligence, I'd go with always, rather than often, for alignment.




Hmm, I see your point.

For some reason I was thinking it was Int 6 when I typed that, which made the notion of a variable alignment more plausible. Easy to modify it.

I'll split the difference and make it "usually neutral evil", there are a few low Intelligence (Int 2-3) monsters that are "usually neutral" (e.g. Frost Worm, Gray Render, Grick, Hydra, Rast in the SRD).


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Lookin' good!  The BAB is off, though (magical beasts have BAB equal to HD).

Added to Homebrews.

Here's the fenris wolf's "sever limb" mechanic...

Augmented Critical (Ex): The Fenris wolf's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit. Additionally, the victim must succeed on a DC 76 Fortitude save or lose a hand or foot (Fenris wolf's choice) A victim who loses a foot falls prone and has its land speed reduced to 5 feet. A severed hand make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components. The save DC is Strength-based. 

Here's a good candidate for those metal teeth and "penetrating bite"...

Adamantine Bite (Ex): A xaren's bite attack counts as adamantine for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and hardness.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

I'm still not sure about ignoring hardness.  I'm just not getting that from the original text.  I think we can probably adapt the Fenris wolf critical, though.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Lookin' good!  The BAB is off, though (magical beasts have BAB equal to HD).




Yes I know, I copied and pasted from a 10HD Animal and forgot to change it. You'll notice that the melee +15 attack is correct for a magical beast with its stats.

Gah! The beastie I copied from was Huge and I forgot to change a couple of other things. Like the size adj in its AC, which should be -1 not -2, and the grapple check is too high.

 I'll edit the post to correct it.

OK, I've dropped the size penalty to -1 and the natural armour to +7, that way it's still AC18.



Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Here's the fenris wolf's "sever limb" mechanic...
> 
> Augmented Critical (Ex): The Fenris wolf's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit. Additionally, the victim must succeed on a DC 76 Fortitude save or lose a hand or foot (Fenris wolf's choice) A victim who loses a foot falls prone and has its land speed reduced to 5 feet. A severed hand make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components. The save DC is Strength-based.




The basic design's alright, but I'd apply a few changes:



Make it a Supernatural power (since it's like a magical _sword of sharpness_)
Make the limb selection random (1=left leg, 2=right leg, 3=left arm, 4=right arm)
Maybe make it Charisma-based or Dexterity-based so it has a lower DC.
If it's Str-based an advanced Quickbiter will be slicing limbs off left, right and centre. E.g. an 18HD Huge Quickbiter with Str 30, Dex 13, Cha 9 and Improved Critical (bite) would threaten a crit on 15-20 and have a DC 29 to avoid severing if the SA is Str-based. One with Dex-based Severing Bite would have DC20, Cha-based would be DC18.
Which do you prefer?

Oh, and is there any special reason you went for 18-20 threat instead of 19-20? The former may be what the Fenris Wolf uses, but the Quickbiter is a bit lower in the monster league!



Shade said:


> Here's a good candidate for those metal teeth and "penetrating bite"...
> 
> Adamantine Bite (Ex): A xaren's bite attack counts as adamantine for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and hardness.




That's the basic idea, I used something similar with the Rockdrill Snake over on my Lumbercritters thread. I was thinking something a bit less than piercing hardness up to 20 though.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I'll edit the post to correct it.




I'll do likewise in Homebrews.



Cleon said:


> The basic design's alright, but I'd apply a few changes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I can get on board with Supernatural and random, but it should stick to Strength-based.  Sure, the save DC is high, but critical hits aren't too difficult to divert at mid-levels (fortification armor immediately leaps to mind).



Cleon said:


> Oh, and is there any special reason you went for 18-20 threat instead of 19-20? The former may be what the Fenris Wolf uses, but the Quickbiter is a bit lower in the monster league!




18-20/x3 is standard for augmented critical.  



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I'm still not sure about ignoring hardness. I'm just not getting that from the original text.




The "metal teeth" leaves room for such an ability.  



Cleon said:


> That's the basic idea, I used something similar with the Rockdrill Snake over on my Lumbercritters thread. I was thinking something a bit less than piercing hardness up to 20 though.




Maybe 10?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Ok, this is all fine with me.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> I can get on board with Supernatural and random, but it should stick to Strength-based.  Sure, the save DC is high, but critical hits aren't too difficult to divert at mid-levels (fortification armor immediately leaps to mind).
> 
> 18-20/x3 is standard for augmented critical.




As you like, just remind your PCs to enjoy their limbs while they still have them.EDIT: Now I'm tempted to rough out an adventure path were the PCs are fighting of an invasion of Quickbiters, and related extraplanar monsters, that are spilling through an interdimensional rift.

I'll call it _*A Farewell To Limbs*_.​


Shade said:


> Maybe 10?




10 was my original proposal, I thought about 15 (mithral teeth?) but didn't fancy the idea of it casually chewing its way through a _wall of iron_...

Then again, it would be worth it to see the look on the PCs faces.

Maybe a base of 10 and a Huge Quickbiter's teeth toughen to penetrate hardness 15?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

_Training a Quickbiter...It'll cost you an arm and a leg._ 

10 improving to 15 sounds good.

Updated.

Make Ethereal Plane its home plane (since we've linked them to ethereal marauders)?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't think training these would be very easy. 

Yes to the ethereal plane.

Feats look ok.

Racial bonus to Spot (+8?)?  Maybe split ranks between Spot and Listen?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

We could borrow the ethereal marauder's skill bonuses...

Skills: Ethereal marauders have a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks.



> SA bite acts as a sword of sharpness, *+2 to initiative*




Improved Inititative as bonus feat?


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

I say yes to Imp Initative as bonus feat


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

Agreed.

Ethereal marauder skill bonuses are ok, but I'd be even happier with a bigger bonus on Spot due to all the eyes on this thing.  +2 on the others, +4 on Spot?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Look again (pardon the pun!)  It already gets a a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks from all-around vision.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

True enough!  Ok, very good.

Did we decide on ranks?


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> _Training a Quickbiter...It'll cost you an arm and a leg._
> 
> 10 improving to 15 sounds good.




_Give that man a hand, there will be plenty of them lying about._

What I was proposing was "ignores hardness less than X", not "ignores the first X points of hardness". i.e. like an adamantine weapon, which ignores the hardness of steel (10) or mithral (15) but faces the full 20 hardness of other adamantine weapons.



Shade said:


> Make Ethereal Plane its home plane (since we've linked them to ethereal marauders)?




The ethereal plane bit doesn't do much for me, but leave it in if you like.

Although it does make me think about an Ethereal Amputator variant, a Quickbiter with ethereal jaunt...Adventurers walking through a dungeon, something pops out of the ethereal plane and back again in a flash of movement.

"Hey, Krusk, didn't you have two arms?"​Still it could be worse, give it a vorpal bite and make an Ethereal Decapitator.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2009)

freyar said:


> True enough!  Ok, very good.
> 
> Did we decide on ranks?




Not yet, no.

I still say it needs a racial bonus to Hide so it can ambush effectively.

Skills: A Quickbiter has a +8 racial bonus to Hide and a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search check.

13 Skill points

How about:

Jump - 0 ranks + 6Str + 4 speed = Jump +10
Hide - 4 ranks + 2Dex +  8 racial - 4 size = Hide +10
Listen - 5 ranks + 1Wis = Listen +6
Search - 0 ranks - 4Int + 4 racial = Search +0
Spot - 4 ranks +1Wis + 4 racial = Spot +9

Skills: Jump +10, Hide +10, Listen +6, Search +0, Spot +9


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2009)

Ahh, sneaky on the hardness issue!  I like what you're proposing better, too.

Those skills seem ok.  Is the ambush bit because it's hiding in the room description?  I kind of got the feeling it wasn't hiding too well if it's in the box text!


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> Those skills seem ok.  Is the ambush bit because it's hiding in the room description?  I kind of got the feeling it wasn't hiding too well if it's in the box text!




It's more the "_giving its targets a -2 penalty to surprise rolls_" bit in the room description.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

I'll fix the hardness bit.  



Cleon said:


> It's more the "_giving its targets a -2 penalty to surprise rolls_" bit in the room description.




I took this more as the "quick" part of its name, not any skills at ambushing.  It seems to just be waiting there, and is so swift that it "gets the jump" on those entering the area.   Hence Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.

So I propose Listen, Move Silently, and Spot, like the Ethereal Marauder, although I'm fine with adding Jump (or even Tumble).


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> I took this more as the "quick" part of its name, not any skills at ambushing.  It seems to just be waiting there, and is so swift that it "gets the jump" on those entering the area.   Hence Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.




Pardon? Surely surprise is mostly a matter of determining awareness, i.e. Hide/MS versus Spot/Listen. The Initiative bonus only affects what order it would act in a surprise round.



Shade said:


> So I propose Listen, Move Silently, and Spot, like the Ethereal Marauder, although I'm fine with adding Jump (or even Tumble).




No Hide at all? Wouldn't that make it hard for them to surprise a foe.

Tumble's an interesting idea, although I'm not sure how well it fits my concept of its attack strategy, which is basically "all the biting, all the time". It would be useful if the Quickbiter likes to dash past the fighters to reach the soft, juicy characters in the back rows.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2009)

In past conversion guidelines, they suggested that a bonus to the creature's/penalty to others' initiative or surpise checks could be extrapolated as some combination of Improved Initiative and bonus on Listen/Spot checks.

I can live with Hide for these things, but I just don't really picture them doing so.  They strike me more as pit bulls barking at the ends of their chains, just waiting to sink their teeth into anything that comes their way, then striking with blinding swiftness.

That's the beauty (and problem) with these abbreviated statblock creatures that only appear in modules...much is left open to interpretation.


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## Cleon (Jun 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> That's the beauty (and problem) with these abbreviated statblock creatures that only appear in modules...much is left open to interpretation.




True enough. My stance is if in doubt, give the quickbiter both beanies - a good Hide and Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. That let's the DM have them follow either (or both!) paths to surprising their victims.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 19, 2009)

Again, I agree with Cleon (that's really remarkable how often this is happening these days)--they're stealthy and springy, what with them hiding behind columns and things. A racial bonus to Hide strikes me as appropriate.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Again, I agree with Cleon (that's really remarkable how often this is happening these days)--they're stealthy and springy, what with them hiding behind columns and things. A racial bonus to Hide strikes me as appropriate.



They're stealthy and they're springy.
They're bitey and they're meanie.
They're altogether nasty.
They're the Quickbiter family.​Sorry, it had to be done.

Anyhow that bring's us neatly to the subject of Organization. We've got nothing to go on here. The original example could have been living by itself or as part of a huge pack before it was snatched between the planes.

I feel it's probably a loner like an Ethereal Marauder [Organization: Solitary], although it may occasionally gather in mated pairs or small family packs like a Megaraptor [Organization: Solitary, pair or pack (3-6)]. You pays your money and you makes your choice.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2009)

Alright...I surrender.  

That organization works for me.

Getting back to skills, +8 racial bonus on Hide?

Hide 4, Listen 2, Move Silently 5, Spot 2?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 19, 2009)

That skill spread works for me.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2009)

Those skills are fine with me, too.  But for the record, I'm with Shade.  I don't really see these as great hiders.  The way the read-out-loud text sounds to me is that it's trying to hide behind a column but is pretty durn obvious.  It's just fast.  But this isn't a big deal.


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## Cleon (Jun 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> Alright...I surrender.
> 
> That organization works for me.




Which one, solitary or pack?

In honour of my semi-plagiaristic ditty I'd like to propose changing pack to family:*Organization:* Solitary, pair or family (3-6)​


Shade said:


> Getting back to skills, +8 racial bonus on Hide?
> 
> Hide 4, Listen 2, Move Silently 5, Spot 2?




Let's see, with its stats, +4 racial on Search & Spot and +8 racial on Hide that adds up to:*Skills:* Hide +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +7, Search +5, Spot +7​Those look fine to me, let's make it so!

That only leaves Challenge Rating, doesn't it? I'm thinking somewhere in the region of 6-7. They're mean up close but can't hurt you from a distance. I'm often uncertain about CRs, what do you fine persons think?


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm thinking CR 7.  It's about as good as a CR 6 tendriculos, but I think the critical and all-around vision bump it.


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## Cleon (Jun 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'm thinking CR 7.  It's about as good as a CR 6 tendriculos, but I think the critical and all-around vision bump it.




Yes, I think I'll agree. The CR6 chain devil and babau demon eyeball as about equal in lethality to the Quickbiter, but I suspect that's more a sign that those fiends are undervalued challenge rating wise.

Comparing it with the CR6 Annis, Girallon, Megaraptor and Shambling Mound it may not have quite the raw damage capacity, but its nasty special attack hands it an advantage.

It looks to me like it's equivalent in nastiness to a CR7 Chull.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

Updated.

I couldn't pass up the opportunity to mention Cleon's "etheral amputator".


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2009)

Looks good, is it done?


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> I couldn't pass up the opportunity to mention Cleon's "etheral amputator".




Fame at last! 



freyar said:


> Looks good, is it done?




Almost. There's a typo mispelling of "ethereal jaunt" as "etheral jaunt".
Also, shouldn't it be something like "A severed hand make it impossible for the subject to use objects _in that hand _or cast spells with somatic components." in the Sever Limb writeup? Presumably their other hand still works alright.

Apart from that I think it's good to go.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

Nice catches.  Fixed.

Since we've exceeded the 1,000 post count, time to close this thread and start part two to avoid crashing the servers.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Nice catches.  Fixed.
> 
> Since we've exceeded the 1,000 post count, time to close this thread and start part two to avoid crashing the servers.




Right, I'll just offer this little charmer to bite off this thread. I couldn't help statting up the truth that lies behind the "fireside tales" those adventurer's tell...

*Ethereal Decapitator*
Large Magical Beast (Extraplanar)
*Hit Dice:* 13d10+52 (136 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class: *20 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 17
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +13/+23
*Attack:* Bite +18 melee (2d6+9/18-20/×3)
*Full Attack:* Bite +18 melee (2d6+9/18-20/×3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Augmented critical, penetrating bite, severing bite
*Special Qualities:* All-around vision, damage reduction 10/magic, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fear, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +12, Ref +11, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 22, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 9
*Skills:* Hide +11, Listen +5, Move Silently +8, Search +5, Spot +10
*Feats:* Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative (B) , Improved Sunder, Mobility* (B) , Power Attack, Spring Attack* (B)
*Environment:* Ethereal Plane
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or family (3-6)
*Challenge Rating:* 10
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Usually neutral evil
*Advancement:* 14–20 HD (Large); 21–30 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A strange creature built like an upright lizard; at the end of its tail is a cluster of inhuman eyes and where its head should be is a large mouth with numerous rows of sharp metal teeth.
_
A typical ethereal decapitator stands 8 feet tall and is 14 feet long from nose to tail, it weighs about 700 pounds.

There is much debate as to whether these rare creatures are close relatives of the quickbiter, or quickbiters that have advanced to the next stage in their lifecycle. So far, no sage who has ventured to research the subject has lived to publish any discovery that answers this question.

*Combat*
Ethereal decapitators use their ethereal jaunt and Spring Attack feat to make bite-and-run attacks from the ethereal plane, leaping into the material world, biting one or more victims, then retreating into the ether to avoid counter-attacks. Its Great Cleave feat and decapitating bite may allow it to kill multiple opponents in one pass. Although just as bloodthirsty as quickbiters, they seldom battle to the death; ethereal decapitators escape to their home plane when badly hurt or wounded rather than continuing the fight.

*All-Around Vision (Ex):* Ethereal decapitators are exceptionally alert and circumspect. Their many eyes give them a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and they can't be flanked.

*Augmented Critical (Ex)
*An ethereal decapitator's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.

*Ethereal Jaunt (Su)
*An ethereal decapitator can shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane as a free action, and can shift back again with a move action, which can include a standard move of 40 feet. The ability is otherwise identical with the _ethereal jaunt_ spell (caster level 15th or the creature's Hit Dice, whichever is higher).

An ethereal decapitator gains the benefits of Mobility and Spring Attack as bonus feats when it uses its ethereal jaunt movement against opponents that lack such an advanced form of interdimensional travel.

*Penetrating Bite (Ex)
*A Large ethereal decapitator's bite attack ignores the first 15 points of hardness. A Huge ethereal decapitator's bite attack ignores the first 20 points of hardness.

*Severing Bite (Su)
*If an ethereal decapitator confirms a critical hit with its bite attack, the target must make a DC 22 Fortitude or the decapitator's bite severs a valuable piece of their anatomy. If the original attack roll was a natural 18 or 19 the victim loses an arm or leg (determined randomly) while a natural 20 means the ethereal decapitator bites their target's head off.

A victim who loses a leg falls prone and has its land speed reduced to 5 feet. A severed arm makes it impossible for the subject to use objects in that hand or cast spells with somatic components.

A severed head kills most creatures but some, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads (in which case the ethereal decapitator just bites off a limb instead), and others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not killed by the loss of their heads. Headless victims who can survive are usually rendered deaf, blind and dumb, the latter makes it impossible for the victim to cast spells with verbal components.

Ethereal decapitators can automatically swallow any limbs or heads they sever, provided the opponent is no larger than the decapitator, taking these body parts with them into the ethereal plane.

An ethereal decapitator with the Improved Critical feat (which most ethereal decapitators obtain at 15 or 18 hit dice) bites off limbs with a confirmed critical that rolls a natural 15-18, and decapitates its victim on a natural 19-20.

The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills*
An ethereal decapitator has a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.

Inspired by the Quickbiter, which originally appeared in Crypt of Lyzandred the Mad (1998).


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2009)

Looks great!

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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