# OOC Kingdom of Ashes (Spies Like Us)



## Archon (Dec 1, 2004)

hey guys,
as your resident sneakmaster i thought i'd start up a thread for the side game. What we need to know first off is, "who's playing?"
after that we can figure out what we're going to do and what our characters are going to look like.
so, to start things off...
1.) - Me.
aka Mik


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## The_Universe (Dec 1, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> hey guys,
> as your resident sneakmaster i thought i'd start up a thread for the side game. What we need to know first off is, "who's playing?"
> after that we can figure out what we're going to do and what our characters are going to look like.
> so, to start things off...
> ...



 Well, I do not want this to have a required group in any way shape or form.  

What I think might be a better idea is to come up with a plan for how you'd infiltrate the king's inner circle (ie, how are you going to spy on him and communicate your findings without getting caught?) and then choose the ideal "members" for the team.  

Assume, for this stage, that you're the spymasters, not the spies.  

At least, that's what I think.  For characters, anyone participating will want at least 1 level of rogue.  I'm envisioning characters of level 6-10.


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## Laurel (Dec 1, 2004)

hehehe... like this.  Almost orders that get sent first   Then who ever can/wants has the fun of playing it out and at the moment decision craziness 

Is this a one time shot? Or just see how it goes where it goes and for how long it goes?

From Liz's list anything we want to add, leave for more time, concentrate on first, have splinter groups, etc. all those fun questions.....

Here's Liz's posted list from other thread:
(1) Find a way to plant someone in Tain's inner-circle (INTRIGUE!!)
(2) Do a very dangerous scouting mission to where Tain is living (DANGER!!)
(3) Send in Xath or Justice as a very special gift for Tain... get him drunk and talking (SCANDAL!!)
(4) Ask Big Blue (NOT VERY EXCITING!!)
(5) Capture some of Tain's inner circle and question them (EXCITEMENT!!)


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## The_Universe (Dec 1, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> hehehe... like this.  Almost orders that get sent first   Then who ever can/wants has the fun of playing it out and at the moment decision craziness
> 
> Is this a one time shot? Or just see how it goes where it goes and for how long it goes?
> 
> ...



 We'll see how long it goes, or if it goes at all.  I would expect it would last longer than one session, but it will not be essential if it does not.

As for Liz's list: I think #1 is the focus of this particular side mission.  The rest can be the focii of the Circle.


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## Laurel (Dec 1, 2004)

*just an initial rambling.....*

So how do we get someone or a few someone's planted as Tain's inner circle.... anyone up for The Stand? 

"M-o-o-n that spells moon."

Anyways, so I think we know or we just think Tain is in Thainsport, so we are sending people there.... right?

But how to get them close.... kill a servant and pretend to be them?  Find someone close enough and switch with them?  Contrive/play a scene of someone trying to kill Tain, but wait look who comes the rescue, Tain should now be greatful?   

How to get into the city-- Teleport? Sewers? through the forest and over the walls to dastardly king's palace we go?

We may have to do some of #2 scouting to do #1.... Can we first try to just find out if Thainsport is actually under attack by draconid army?  Didn't the head red mage in Caer Albion say it was, though he could always be decieved or lying or who knows what else..... ?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 1, 2004)

Things we need before we make a plan:

(1) We need to find out *who* Tain's friends are, now.  We have killed a lot of them lately.  So, we need of find out if they've been replaced and the like.

(2) We need to find out if any organizations are working with Tain, if we can.  If we can get into those organizations, we can get into his inner circle.

(3) We need to find out Tain's extended family tree.  Could pass off as very distant relations... or, maybe we could even *be* some distant family relations.

(4) We need to *know* the city surrounding Tain's palace.

(5) We need to know the workings of the palace - at least from the outside.

(6) A blueprint of the palace would be very helpful.

(7) We need to be really good at mundane forms of sneakery and the like.  The less magic we have glowing all around us, the more powerful we'll be once into the palace.
Gadgets and magic items are nice - but in a situation like this, we need to be able to operate without them so that we do not pull too much attention to ourselves.

(8) Resources - money.  'Nuff said.

(9) Detailed, fully worked out deceptions.  If we are to work our way into Tain's inner circle, our stories about who we are, where we come from, etc need to be absolutely flawless.

(10) Everyone that participates in the planning process needs to be detachable.  No "solid" characters necessary - this is so that, when some people have time, we can play without worrying about hurting people's feelings because they are left out.

After we have this - and probably some other things that I haven't thought of, yet - we can make a plan.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 1, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> So how do we get someone or a few someone's planted as Tain's inner circle.... anyone up for The Stand?
> 
> "M-o-o-n that spells moon."
> 
> ...



 I think the key is working our way *into* his circle.  Who do you tell your secrets... your friends.  I that these side characters need to be Tain's friends... or, at the very least, his friend's friends.


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## The_Universe (Dec 1, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I think the key is working our way *into* his circle.  Who do you tell your secrets... your friends.  I that these side characters need to be Tain's friends... or, at the very least, his friend's friends.



 Or obsequious servants, who can listen to he and his friends talk....


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 1, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Or obsequious servants, who can listen to he and his friends talk....



 That works, too.  Don't know if Tain is dumb enough to talk in front of his servants... but, I've always wanted to get someone drunk and get information out of them!

However, I don't think this is a sneaking through sewers type of thing... that's the point I was trying to make.

We don't need to sneak into the city or anything like that.


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## Laurel (Dec 1, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I think the key is working our way *into* his circle. Who do you tell your secrets... your friends. I that these side characters need to be Tain's friends... or, at the very least, his friend's friends.



Yes, but those friends that I tell things too I didn't gain over night.  And as has been stated many many a time in all the different threads pretending to be someone close can be dangerous... if he asks questions only his best bud would know (like who did you kill last week?) that PC is stuck.

Sevants were and are known for being big secret carriers or the biggests gossips.  If you want to know about the royalty you don't talk to thier family or friends or to her, you talk to her personal maid.
Severvants are the shadows that go unnoticed, moving from room to room to beneath anyones notice for them to care.  But necssary for more wine, or books or anything meanial to have done.
Generally servants are the ones that see people at thier worst, and at the same get to overhear the most.
If our people are sneakies they just have to have a place there, as a high servant to the king they can go around late at night without being asked questions.
From most books and stories and movies and such that I have seen people have done far more damage, gotten further and learned more by pretending to be a servant then by working through all the nuances of becoming someones best friend.

I am not saying that by posing as a servant this individual would become the most knowledgable about everything Tain is doing, but it may be easier to keep a servant close to Tain for a longer time.

We may only be playing this as a one-time deal, but I thought the hope was for these PC's to become NPC's that can continue to feed information to Hywrl.


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## The_Universe (Dec 1, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> (1) We need to find out *who* Tain's friends are, now. We have killed a lot of them lately. So, we need of find out if they've been replaced and the like.



Probably not find-outable from this distance. The potential characters in this game will be your spies in the Thanesport, which means they'll be the ones who can find this stuff out. 

However, he tends to hang out with the dastardly types - his inner circle is *mostly* people who served under him when he led the naval expedition before he became king. 



> (2) We need to find out if any organizations are working with Tain, if we can. If we can get into those organizations, we can get into his inner circle.



 There are no organizations working for Tain so much as they are working for the the Throne that Tain occupies. High-ups in the Church of the Light, the Nobles Council, the Talons, the Military, etc. all have a reason to be around Tain. However, they may not be in his true "inner circle." Nightgrove was, and he didn't really occupy an official position in the Kingdom. 



> (3) We need to find out Tain's extended family tree. Could pass off as very distant relations... or, maybe we could even *be* some distant family relations.



 He has a step brother named Relin Nightgrove. His mother is dead. His father is dead. His step father was killed by you. His mother had no family (she was a servant, originally). 

He has cousins on his father's side. Jaine and Archon among them. Tain, though a bastard, is a noble, and is thus tied in some distant way to most of the human and half-elven houses. 



> (4) We need to *know* the city surrounding Tain's palace.



 Probably not possible until you're there, and I don't see it as being a necessity for all types of plans. If this is going to be more cloak and dagger than it will be face and con, you need to know this. If this is going to focus on lying and not sneakery, This is not so important.



> (5) We need to know the workings of the palace - at least from the outside.



 Have to scout when you get there. Guess what it would be, and work from there. You might be able to ask people in Caer Albion what that palace was like, but that's as close as you could get. 



> 6) A blueprint of the palace would be very helpful.



 But not available.



> (7) We need to be really good at mundane forms of sneakery and the like. The less magic we have glowing all around us, the more powerful we'll be once into the palace.
> Gadgets and magic items are nice - but in a situation like this, we need to be able to operate without them so that we do not pull too much attention to ourselves.



 Probably true. 



> (8) Resources - money. 'Nuff said.



 Yep.



> (9) Detailed, fully worked out deceptions. If we are to work our way into Tain's inner circle, our stories about who we are, where we come from, etc need to be absolutely flawless.



 Yes they do - and remember that friendships and true trust take a long time to foster.  If you don't need any information out of him for a year, and you're willing to do some BAD things to get it, you can probably get into his actual circle of close friends and advisors - outside of that, you may have to be a little less direct.



> (10) Everyone that participates in the planning process needs to be detachable. No "solid" characters necessary - this is so that, when some people have time, we can play without worrying about hurting people's feelings because they are left out.



 Yep. Exactly.



> After we have this - and probably some other things that I haven't thought of, yet - we can make a plan.



No intelligence is perfect.  I can answer general questions, but assume that there are no spies there, already.  You're going to be the spies - how do you get in, starting at square 1 (or 0).


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## Laurel (Dec 1, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> That works, too. Don't know if Tain is dumb enough to talk in front of his servants... but, I've always wanted to get someone drunk and get information out of them!
> 
> However, I don't think this is a sneaking through sewers type of thing... that's the point I was trying to make.
> 
> We don't need to sneak into the city or anything like that.



Hoseholds are well organized.  If a battle is truely going on then that can be worked to the advantage.  But if posing as a friend, family member, or new servant just knocking on the wall doesn't work.
The sneak through sewers I was mentioning was 1) to get into the city unnoticed and 2) all of those questions you asked some will need to be scouted out somehow or we send them in knowing they are blind or without some information.
But before all there is the bigger picture, and deciding what will happen inside will tell us how the scouts/pheonix troops need to get in.....


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## The_Universe (Dec 1, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Yes, but those friends that I tell things too I didn't gain over night.  And as has been stated many many a time in all the different threads pretending to be someone close can be dangerous... if he asks questions only his best bud would know (like who did you kill last week?) that PC is stuck.
> 
> Sevants were and are known for being big secret carriers or the biggests gossips.  If you want to know about the royalty you don't talk to thier family or friends or to her, you talk to her personal maid.
> Severvants are the shadows that go unnoticed, moving from room to room to beneath anyones notice for them to care.  But necssary for more wine, or books or anything meanial to have done.
> ...



 I think this is the safer bet.  You'll get *more* information if you're closer and more friend-like (as Liz suggested), but the chance of getting caught is also much higher.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 1, 2004)

Getting into the city unnoticed is not really important.  Just random people coming into the city is not dangerous.  If it were the circle, it would be.  But, these characters should be able to simply walk in.

Additionally, many of the things on the list that I made are *not* things that I expect us to have access to right now.  But, things that I thought the new characters playing could learn once they get into the city.

I assumed this mission would be more lying, sneaking, and intrigue than smashing and killing.  Information gathering... planting people in his circle to *stay* in his circle so that we can continue to gain information.  Eyes and ears, not hammers and swords.


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## Laurel (Dec 1, 2004)

I could be wrong but in the middle of war people generally are not just wander in and out gates... and if a specific battle is being waged then they definitly will not just be letting walk in.

Even if option one is to walk through the gates they should still get a back-up plan.  Gates closed, too many guards, everyone being imprisoned if not from the city, or whatever the case may be.  If someone is even suspicious at the gate at that early of a stage of who the new people are it taints the whole project.

So far everything people have suggested or thought of are all leaning toward the deception, intrigue, sneakery, non-raging warrior type of scenarios.  If they start killing everything in sight or battling everything as we have learned the game is up.  One of two kills planned out way in advance of place and timing can be accomplished if needed, but I agree that it is more simply info. gathering mission for the longer term.  Spies of our own inside.


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## The_Universe (Dec 1, 2004)

*If* there's a battle going on, you'll need a way into the walls, since the gates will not simply open.  However, if there isn't, you can probably just stroll in, as long as you're not carrying crates full of illegal steeldrakes or something...


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## Laurel (Dec 1, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Even if option one is to walk through the gates they should still get a back-up plan. Gates closed, too many guards, everyone being imprisoned if not from the city, or whatever the case may be. If someone is even suspicious at the gate at that early of a stage of who the new people are it taints the whole project.



So possible plan A:
-Teleport directly into city, Jaine, the circle, Preston, and who knows who else know certain areas well enough to get someone else inside safely

If that doesn't look like it will work when they get there, possible Plan B:
-Teleport to outside city somewhere
-Story: They are from Oceanus (can get enough info on area, places, events, etc. for this) refugees with cities on Pyrdain over crowded, grouped up to get however they could to family in Thainsport.
-reason for being there: Trying to find work and family make a new home in Thainsport

If that doesn't look like it will work when they get there, possible Plan C:
- use water ways to get inside city to docks, use the draconids tactics.

If that doesn't look like it will work when they get there, possible Plan D:
Scale wall sneak in without getting caught or raising alarm or killing anyone or anything


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## The_Universe (Dec 1, 2004)

Looks like a decent start.


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## Laurel (Dec 1, 2004)

*just a little more *

However they get there, once inside story stays the same as it would have at the gate.
Go to palace need work- it's all talking and usin' the old noggin' to get through things now... may help to have each person with some sort of skills before hand (made up or real doesn't matter) and doesn't need to be decided till day of.

Big thing I can't figure out is how to keep people together though.... if use persuasion correctly and get placed where we want, they could all get placed to the same wing.  Occationally meet up to chat, as they only know each other in the palace.  The times for chat can be to 'write letters home.' Actually reports for Hwyrl.

Reports get back to hywrl:
A) Through messenger pigeons, messenger bird of another sort
B) Through scrying on off duty from palace go to place outside city in a set up hide out-- mage comes at appionted time and takes them away
C) Carry a Ring gate and pass messages through gate
D) Hide messages in wall in Palace in one month time? Whenever one leaves city returns to Hywrl, then another... etc.
E) Mage at appointed time teleports into city sewers Scout hands package over
F) One gets to learn the message spell
G) One gets placed in messenger/scribe part of palace? unlimited access to ink and paper and any forms of sending messages
H)???


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## Xath (Dec 1, 2004)

One of the things we really have to worry about if we want to be close to Tain is the Shadow Path.  Some of his uppy ups have walked it, some have not.  Anyone that goes should have Undetectable Alignment permanancied on them ahead of time.  

These people should know as little as possible about the inner workings of the Army of the Phoenix in case they are caught.  The less they know, the less can be tortured out of them.  

They also shouldn't be spellcasters, or at least obvious spellcasters.  I know Blackadder is in Tain's inner circle, but he greatly admired Nightgrove who has a known hatred of spellcasters.  It may or may not be more difficult for a spellcaster to get close to Tain, but it's safer not to chance it.  For contingencies, put lots of ranks in use magic device.  

All members should have a "Contingency: Teleport"  keyed to go off if their cover is blown.  They may be in a no-teleport area, but it at least gives them a chance.  

You could combine the ideas above.  Have one person, as a noble, try to get close to Tain.  With him/her will be personal servant(s), who will have access to areas of the palace nobles do not go.  

No member of the party should be LG.  In order to get close to Tain, any of them may have to do deeds that are downright distasteful, and we don't want any unquallable morality bells going off.  

No magical appearance altering devices should be used.  Any True Seeing can see right through that.  Any needed disguises should be mundane.  

I'd recommend that all members have at least 1 level of Ranger with favored enemy Draconid.  It may become necessary to pretend to be one at some point in the mission.  It could be that all of Tain's servants are shadow pathed, and someone with a deep knowledge of the way the species works would have an advantage in pretending to be one.


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## Xath (Dec 1, 2004)

> (3) We need to find out Tain's extended family tree.  Could pass off as very distant relations... or, maybe we could even *be* some distant family relations.




There's a spell in the beef that let's you know one person's ancestry back 10 generations.  Although, someone around may know.  Some of the older elves have probably lived long enough to remember.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 1, 2004)

The only reason that we would not be able to walk into Thanesport is if the city is under attack.  At current, I believe we've been told that it is... however, I suspect that that is a lie (since that's what Kennon just whispered).


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 1, 2004)

If one of the characters is a mage of some variety, they can get scrolls of Sending to deliver messages, as well.

However, I really like pigeons.  I think they're cool.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 1, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> There's a spell in the beef that let's you know one person's ancestry back 10 generations.  Although, someone around may know.  Some of the older elves have probably lived long enough to remember.



 What book is that spell in?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 1, 2004)

However, I think there's lots we need to know before we can actually plan *how* we are going to get into the palace/close to Tain.  Like whether or not Thanesport is under attack and what kind of security is there around the city if it is not under attack.

Moreover, simply posing as nobles seems like it could cause more harm than good... one *could* attempt to convince him that their house is going to support him... however, he could also just kill them - since that seems to be what he is doing with the nobles, anyway.


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## Xath (Dec 2, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> What book is that spell in?




The beef, otherwise known as the BoEF, or the Book of Non-Grandma Friendly Photographs.


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## The_Universe (Dec 2, 2004)

Good ideas.  I especially like the idea of having some ranger levels in there.  

Tain has shown himself willing to use spellcasters with impugnity, despite Nightgrove's distaste.  Not only was Selura a spellcaster, so was Blackadder - so far a majority of the inner circle that you've met.


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## The_Universe (Dec 2, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Moreover, simply posing as nobles seems like it could cause more harm than good... one *could* attempt to convince him that their house is going to support him... however, he could also just kill them - since that seems to be what he is doing with the nobles, anyway.



The Nobles have already given him their support.  That's why he's the king.  Some may have secretly supported Jaine, but in public the Nobles bow to their rightful Liege - Tain Hawkson I. 

In short, just saying, "we support you" wouldn't be enough.  You'd have to have something else to give him....


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 2, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> The Nobles have already given him their support.  That's why he's the king.  Some may have secretly supported Jaine, but in public the Nobles bow to their rightful Liege - Tain Hawkson I.
> 
> In short, just saying, "we support you" wouldn't be enough.  You'd have to have something else to give him....



 Things we can give Tain/Ways we can get close:

(1) "Information" about the rebellion - example, we were captives of the rebellion.  We don't tell them true stories... just use it as a means to look like we're on his side.

(2) One female PC poses as a female noble of some sort or another.  She claims that this rebellion has "taken away" her fiancee either because he willingly joined and was killed or was simply killed by the rebellion.  Now, she and her bodyguard and handmaiden/whoever can play, have come to ask Tain's help in avenging her lost love.

(3) We pose as distant relatives of Jaine - terrified that we will be linked to the rebellion and ask for the king's protection, as well as providing dissent from Jaine's family on her claim to the throne.

(4) We use the altered prophecy idea.  Claiming that we, when taking by the rebellion in the "liberation" of Oceanus (we'd probably call it the slaughter) happened upon it/overheard something about it/whatever... offer it to him for protection from the deadly Circle.

(5) We use a decoy NPC that is a "member of the circle" (we pass this off by saying that Xath or L'Aurel has died and this is her, reincarnated).  We're here to collect our bounty - but, we want more than just money.

These are ideas that I have off the top of my head... will think of more later.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 2, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> The Nobles have already given him their support.  That's why he's the king.  Some may have secretly supported Jaine, but in public the Nobles bow to their rightful Liege - Tain Hawkson I.
> 
> In short, just saying, "we support you" wouldn't be enough.  You'd have to have something else to give him....



 I meant support of his war.  Word has to be spreading that the Phoenix Rebellion thinks he is responsible... if we pass ourselves off as nobels that have heard this rumor, we could offer him support from that angle.

Certainly, he did not have the support of all of the nobles in calling the Draconids in.


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## Laurel (Dec 2, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Things we can give Tain/Ways we can get close:
> (1) "Information" about the rebellion - example, we were captives of the rebellion. We don't tell them true stories... just use it as a means to look like we're on his side.



Just have to remember as with the Bluestar, omitting certain parts of the truth is one thing lying out right is another.  Since this will be over a long time and involving more them one person, to go this route they have to be planned out very, very carefully and in great detail.  Everyones story has to continue to match up, all of which leads to more and more chances of slipping up.



> (2) One female PC poses as a female noble of some sort or another. She claims that this rebellion has "taken away" her fiancee either because he willingly joined and was killed or was simply killed by the rebellion. Now, she and her bodyguard and handmaiden/whoever can play, have come to ask Tain's help in avenging her lost love.



The problem here is there isn't a promintent noble that could work.  We have seen what Tain has done to them- keeping close eye on them (spies in Oceanus), killed them (Jaine's family), turned them into slaves (AA's sister, Henry H.), or set his own people in charge (Edriss).
Being a distant nobel may help... but I don't think this alone would get Tain's notice.  Or if it did very likely he would say cool, here's a mission and send them off.... no chance for more info.



> (3) We pose as distant relatives of Jaine - terrified that we will be linked to the rebellion and ask for the king's protection, as well as providing dissent from Jaine's family on her claim to the throne.



What about one of Filmore's family?  He may be more of a backround to the rebellion now, but his name was linked for a long time to Jaine's.  According to family tree he's still up for kingship too.
Also as the noble houses have houses there we have to be ready for whatever family we pick to know lots about it, and be a convincing 'sure grandpa you just haven't seen me since I was one month old!' for anyone in Thainsport from family.



> (4) We use the altered prophecy idea. Claiming that we, when taking by the rebellion in the "liberation" of Oceanus (we'd probably call it the slaughter) happened upon it/overheard something about it/whatever... offer it to him for protection from the deadly Circle.



Again probably a good bet that he will have someone at hand that can figure out it's false.  We specifically didn't give mages time to look it over since we figured even they at a much lower level could have figured it out....



> (5) We use a decoy NPC that is a "member of the circle" (we pass this off by saying that Xath or L'Aurel has died and this is her, reincarnated). We're here to collect our bounty - but, we want more than just money.



Um... sacrificing a person just doesn't seem right.  This is porbably the way that is most likely to get his attention, if the PC also offers to torture the prisoner all the better.  he seems to like devious, powerful, and evil those are his qualifications for close freind.  But turning someone in, sacrificing them, especially one who is not a prominent part of the rebellion is dooming them to shadow path, death, or some other bad fate.

Possibly combining ideas would be better:
Such as distant noble plan, lost loved one in battle blames rebellion, sees light, hates them and no proof against king, noble sure it is only lies they speak, noble was there for a time has info. for Tain- a willing servant, already saw the rebellion and chose against it, has information.

But something would still be needed moment of, as inspiration hits, decided in advance to string him along... very gently.  Need to keep the person attached to Tain.


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## Laurel (Dec 2, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> One of the things we really have to worry about if we want to be close to Tain is the Shadow Path. Some of his uppy ups have walked it, some have not. Anyone that goes should have Undetectable Alignment permanancied on them ahead of time.



Good idea for PC that ends up being good, but if neutral why not let him see it?  The less actual covering up we have to do the better.



> These people should know as little as possible about the inner workings of the Army of the Phoenix in case they are caught. The less they know, the less can be tortured out of them.



Definite agreement here on this one!



> They also shouldn't be spellcasters, or at least obvious spellcasters. I know Blackadder is in Tain's inner circle, but he greatly admired Nightgrove who has a known hatred of spellcasters. It may or may not be more difficult for a spellcaster to get close to Tain, but it's safer not to chance it. For contingencies, put lots of ranks in use magic device.



I don't know that we specifically need to worry about this one.  If someone is spell casting for illusion and invisibilty type things it works better then carrying around all those scrolls/wands.  Combat spell casters wouldn't be much good on this venture I will agree with that one.



> All members should have a "Contingency: Teleport" keyed to go off if their cover is blown. They may be in a no-teleport area, but it at least gives them a chance.



Agree.



> You could combine the ideas above. Have one person, as a noble, try to get close to Tain. With him/her will be personal servant(s), who will have access to areas of the palace nobles do not go.



sorry late in reading this   This would also get them together in a group 



> No member of the party should be LG. In order to get close to Tain, any of them may have to do deeds that are downright distasteful, and we don't want any unquallable morality bells going off.



This goes along with the alignment issue, also I don't think many LG would be too keen on the whole shadow and lies type of operation.



> No magical appearance altering devices should be used. Any True Seeing can see right through that. Any needed disguises should be mundane.



Hopefully none will be needed, even mundane disguises have to be put on every morning, everytime someone walks in, could possibly see, etc.  If during the mission it's needed then yes mundane if possible, but we should try to avoid plannign a need in.....



> I'd recommend that all members have at least 1 level of Ranger with favored enemy Draconid. It may become necessary to pretend to be one at some point in the mission. It could be that all of Tain's servants are shadow pathed, and someone with a deep knowledge of the way the species works would have an advantage in pretending to be one.



So we've got one level rogue and one level ranger, right?
I like both ideas, and the ranger gives "a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type" all good when speaking and bluffin' dragons and those shadowed


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 2, 2004)

This mission is going to take planning and an excellent story.  We can't discount options because it would require the PCs to lie.  We want information-not hack and slash.

Moreover, we would _not_ be using prominent nobles in any con that required using a noble... that's the whole point.  They have to be obscure enough to avoid catching any major attention... while at the same time having a name to back up their claim at nobility.  

Think Matt Damon in Ocean's Eleven: want to be likeable without being overly memorable... convincing without being overbearing.


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## The_Universe (Dec 2, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> This mission is going to take planning and an excellent story.  We can't discount options because it would require the PCs to lie.  We want information-not hack and slash.
> 
> Moreover, we would _not_ be using prominent nobles in any con that required using a noble... that's the whole point.  They have to be obscure enough to avoid catching any major attention... while at the same time having a name to back up their claim at nobility.
> 
> Think Matt Damon in Ocean's Eleven: want to be likeable without being overly memorable... convincing without being overbearing.



 Right - o.  

Also, remember that it may take some time to get into Tain's inner circle for any potential minor noble...and that he probably has at least a general idea of who the nobles in his kingdom are.  Further, with the possible exception of Edriss, none of his current "inner circle" members are of the noble class - and Edriss can only be included therein because he was trying to fill the County of Hyrwl.  

As far as general behavior, Tain's been taking things away from the nobility for some time, now - he bullied the council (presumably) into supporting his claim over Jaine and Filmore's.  He's killed major nobles (or had them killed), and consistently isolated powerful nobles from potential allies as their lands are taken by either Draconids, or by his own forces.  Of course, all of that assumes that he's controlling the draconids...which he _probably _is, but we're still not 100% sure of.  

Anyway - the point is that being a noble does not seem to guarantee that you'll get close to Tain.  He seems to prefer the company of murderers, thieves, and necromancers...at least based on his currently known associates.


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## The_Universe (Dec 2, 2004)

> Quote:
> You could combine the ideas above. Have one person, as a noble, try to get close to Tain. With him/her will be personal servant(s), who will have access to areas of the palace nobles do not go.
> sorry late in reading this  This would also get them together in a group



That being said, this might get the servants into the palace, even if the noble never gets all that close to the King.  At the very least, the noble would be privy to discussions with the Noble's Council, which is more than you have now.


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## Laurel (Dec 2, 2004)

*I'm NOT suggesting a hack and slash*

okay.... just to start I didn't discount it if you re-read what I wrote.  I have done what you and the others have done take an idea offered and run through what personally I see as problems or issues with the ideas.  The only one I discounted was sacrificing a person.  All others are still up for debate, and part of working out a plan so far is to throw ideas around and hash them out.... and just because I don't like an idea doesn't mean everyone else does.  Even though this isn't a circle thing we as a gaming group do things democratically, if everyone else is keen on an idea we go with it.

I didn't say we should storm the palace nor ever suggested an idea for this mission that involves hack and slash primary methods.  So far all of the plans have been for a covert operation involving lies and deciet.  

As for the lying, I was simply stating that on BIG issues we needed to have well planned out what each story is, and normally it is easier for a person to say a truth then a lie.  It is easier for a person to decieve someone else when speaking a partial truth then a lie, by omitting instead of flagrantly telling a non-truth.  It is also harder for a person to find any fault with a partial truth, or an omitted truth.  It's easier to find issue with a lie.
The draconids had spies in our camp, he still may.  What we tell him can't be far from the truth, that's all I was getting at.


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## Laurel (Dec 2, 2004)

*Just re-stating lots of ideas already posted by people.....*

So far the top ranking idea, IMO, seems to be:
Actors--One lower noble, possibly related to a noble involved in rebellion.
Rest are servants that accompany noble.
Loved one died by rebellion fault.
Noble hates rebellion, loves the king.  Love as in gives king support... or love as in more physical ways, whatever gets the job done 
Has some info. on rebellion to entice king closer

guidlines:
1 level rogue
1 level ranger
no magic disguises

This would get them into Tain's view at least, closeness may take time.  Give servants leave to roam, listen at doors, possibly move in on Tain or other high up from another direction.  Keeps them together so they can dissemble keep track of things should one.... not be able to return thier information is not lost.

Not claiming this to be the only nor in best,just from what I have seen, read, thought through it looks to be the best out there currently.


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## The_Universe (Dec 2, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> okay.... just to start I didn't discount it if you re-read what I wrote. I have done what you and the others have done take an idea offered and run through what personally I see as problems or issues with the ideas. The only one I discounted was sacrificing a person. All others are still up for debate, and part of working out a plan so far is to throw ideas around and hash them out.... and just because I don't like an idea doesn't mean everyone else does. Even though this isn't a circle thing we as a gaming group do things democratically, if everyone else is keen on an idea we go with it.



 Right on.  No blood, no foul. 



> I didn't say we should storm the palace nor ever suggested an idea for this mission that involves hack and slash primary methods. So far all of the plans have been for a covert operation involving lies and deciet.



 Right - which is probably what any long term mission requires.  In true James Bond/Mission Impossible fashion, combat at some point may be unavoidable, but it's not really the focus.  



> As for the lying, I was simply stating that on BIG issues we needed to have well planned out what each story is, and normally it is easier for a person to say a truth then a lie. It is easier for a person to decieve someone else when speaking a partial truth then a lie, by omitting instead of flagrantly telling a non-truth. It is also harder for a person to find any fault with a partial truth, or an omitted truth. It's easier to find issue with a lie.



 All good points. 



> The draconids had spies in our camp, he still may. What we tell him can't be far from the truth, that's all I was getting at.



That's right - so there's little point obscuring much of what happens in Hyrwl, unless you're going to claim you're not from/never been there.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 2, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> As for the lying, I was simply stating that on BIG issues we needed to have well planned out what each story is, and normally it is easier for a person to say a truth then a lie.  It is easier for a person to decieve someone else when speaking a partial truth then a lie, by omitting instead of flagrantly telling a non-truth.  It is also harder for a person to find any fault with a partial truth, or an omitted truth.  It's easier to find issue with a lie.
> The draconids had spies in our camp, he still may.  What we tell him can't be far from the truth, that's all I was getting at.




Because this has been stated several times in this thread - acknowledging that we need a detailed totally worked out story has been the main assumption of all suggestions - I assumed you were making a point about how you *didn't* think that a mission based on lies was a good idea.  

I apologize if I sounded rude in my response... just the downfall of messageboard community.

However, we do need to remember that even omitted truth still requires the Bluff check to back it up.  Any time we are attempting to mislead, we have to have the skills to back it up... doesn't really make it any "easier" - so long as you a attempting to mislead, you are lying.

All of your comments are totally valid and I appreciate them bunches and bunches - that's what we need when formulating a plan.


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## The_Universe (Dec 2, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Because this has been stated several times in this thread - acknowledging that we need a detailed totally worked out story has been the main assumption of all suggestions - I assumed you were making a point about how you *didn't* think that a mission based on lies was a good idea.
> 
> I apologize if I sounded rude in my response... just the downfall of messageboard community.
> 
> ...



 Yeah - messageboards are rough, as we all know.  

It would do us all to remember that there's an implied "" with every post.  It's a game - and it's fun, no point in getting too worked up about it.  

Keep up the good work, gang!


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## Laurel (Dec 2, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> So far the top ranking idea, IMO, seems to be:
> Actors--One as a low noble, possibly related to a noble involved in rebellion.
> Rest are servants that accompany noble. Loved one died by rebellions fault. Noble hates rebellion, loves the king. Love as in gives king support... or love as in more physical ways, whatever gets the job done  Has some info. on rebellion to entice king closer



Adding Plan A to get in- walk through gates, if falure plan B-- any of the other things stated a while back as ways to get in Thanesport.



> Guidlines:
> 1 level rogue
> 1 level ranger
> no magic disguises



forgot these: cover alignment if good
Teleport contingency




> This would get them into Tain's view at least, closeness may take time. Give servants leave to roam, listen at doors, possibly move in on Tain or other high up from another direction. Keeps them together so they can dissemble keep track of things should one.... not be able to return thier information is not lost.
> 
> Not claiming this to be the only nor in best,just from what I have seen, read, thought through it looks to be the best out there currently.



Do we want to try and get messages out? Get updates regularly, when they have enough to send? Of the ways suggested which should we have them plan on?


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## The_Universe (Dec 2, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Adding Plan A to get in- walk through gates, if falure plan B-- any of the other things stated a while back as ways to get in Thanesport.
> 
> forgot these: cover alignment if good
> Teleport contingency
> ...



 I think regular updates are important, even if there is little or nothing of use to report.   That way, if an agent stops reporting, you'll know something was or is wrong, and will have reason to investigate.


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## Laurel (Dec 3, 2004)

Can the spell message, or any of those be intercepted? Followed?

I know the animal messenger can, since it is literally an animal going from point A to point B, but the others are mental..... Just trying to make sure


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 3, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Can the spell message, or any of those be intercepted? Followed?
> 
> I know the animal messenger can, since it is literally an animal going from point A to point B, but the others are mental..... Just trying to make sure



 I don't know that they can be intercepted... however, they can be detected pretty easily.

Sending allows a message up to 25 words... in addition, it allows a 25 word response from the sendee.  But, it's only a Cleric spell and would require scrolls in order to cast... unless one of the PCs was a neutral cleric...


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 3, 2004)

Lots of Tain's friends are/were very powerful spell casters... I think that magic should be - not quite a last resort - but, something that we do not depend upon.  The more mundane means we use, the less likely we are going to get ourselves in trouble.

If we use messenger birds, just be sure that we don't sign out names to the notes and that no one sees us when we send the birds to Hyrwl.

However, it is not instant... which is a big downfall.


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## The_Universe (Dec 3, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Can the spell message, or any of those be intercepted? Followed?
> 
> I know the animal messenger can, since it is literally an animal going from point A to point B, but the others are mental..... Just trying to make sure



 I'm not sure if it can be followed or intercepted, but it can be _detected_ far more easily than an animal (since there isn't a _detect animal_ spell).


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 3, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if it can be followed or intercepted, but it can be _detected_ far more easily than an animal (since there isn't a _detect animal_ spell).



 Actually, there is... (not that it will help the bad guys find our pigeons). From the SRD:

Detect Animals or Plants
Divination

Level: Drd 1, Rgr 1

Components: V, S

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Area: Cone-shaped emanation

Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./level (D)

Saving Throw: None

Spell Resistance: No

You can detect a particular kind of animal or plant in a cone emanating out from you in whatever direction you face. You must think of a kind of animal or plant when using the spell, but you can change the animal or plant kind each round. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you search a particular area or focus on a specific kind of animal or plant.

1st Round: Presence or absence of that kind of animal or plant in the area.

2nd Round: Number of individuals of the specified kind in the area, and the condition of the healthiest specimen.

3rd Round: The condition (see below) and location of each individual present. If an animal or plant is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.

Conditions: For purposes of this spell, the categories of condition are as follows:

Normal: Has at least 90% of full normal hit points, free of disease.

Fair: 30% to 90% of full normal hit points remaining.

Poor: Less than 30% of full normal hit points remaining, afflicted with a disease, or suffering from a debilitating injury.

Weak: 0 or fewer hit points remaining, afflicted with a disease in the terminal stage, or crippled.

If a creature falls into more than one category, the spell indicates the weaker of the two.

Each round you can turn to detect a kind of animal or plant in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.


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## The_Universe (Dec 3, 2004)

Damn.  Nevermind, then.  

Anyway - even with that spell, I think you're safe.  If someone casts this, and gets "Yes there are pigeons" I don't think it will arouse the suspicions of others.


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## Laurel (Dec 3, 2004)

Animals are more easily spotted and easier to trail..... that was the issue I saw with actual animals as carriers.

Pet falcon for noble, falcons are Tain's kingdom's bird  and with at least one rank in ranger everyone could handle an animal at least a little  Someone else can train it before hand and give it to them... okay rambling time to stop.

Convinced myself, works. Depending on Noble's house have access to another falconry


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## Laurel (Dec 3, 2004)

*Keep running with the same idea......*

*Actors*: One as a low noble, possibly related to a noble involved in rebellion (Filmore or Rhynn?). Rest are servants that accompany noble. 

*Brief story:* Ran from Oceanus told to go to Hywrl. Trusted loved one, then loved one died in Hywrl. All rebels fault. Spewed lies about king, of which they had dubious evidence. They let people come and go- Noble told Jaine she would find more support ran to Thanesport to King. Noble hates rebellion, loves the king. Love as in gives the king support... or love as in more physical ways, whatever gets the job done Has some info. on rebellion to entice the king to keep the person around.

Carries a pair of falcons? Lover was a falconer, caught to show support of falcon kingdom and the current king, they are good at raking peoples eyes out (insert malicious grin)…..

*Plan of action:*
Plan A to get in- walk through gates. If failure plan B-- any of the other things stated a while back as ways to get in Thanesport. Get audience with King, talk, try to stay in palace. Ten days from arrival one on mission sends message to Hwyrl by falcon. Every ten days another is sent (Hywrl sends them back on a shifting schedule). Shift who actually sends message, and from what point in city (make it slightly –maybe slightly- harder to track follow) 

*Guidelines OOC:*
1 level rogue
1 level ranger

*Guidelines IC:*
no power magic, unless can be kept under wraps or explained easily
cover alignment if good
Teleport contingency


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 3, 2004)

There's lots and lots of nobles out there... we should probably avoid the Filmore/Rhynn name, I think.


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## Laurel (Dec 3, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> There's lots and lots of nobles out there... we should probably avoid the Filmore/Rhynn name, I think.



Then it would be Greyclaw.  I was going under the assumption we were looking for a distant relative of a noble associated with the rebel cause.... which I thought currently only amounted to Jaine Rhynn, Alric Filmore, Duke Greyclaw, and L'Aurel Woodshadow...
L'Aurel's claim is only admitted/recongnized by the pheonix throne.  So that's automatically out.

Why should we avoid Filmore or Rhynn?


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## The_Universe (Dec 3, 2004)

> Then it would be Greyclaw. I was going under the assumption we were looking for a distant relative of a noble associated with the rebel cause.... which I thought currently only amounted to Jaine Rhynn, Alric Filmore, Duke Greyclaw, and L'Aurel Woodshadow...



 The Filmore's have been stricken completely from the Noble's Council - they're titles stripped from them.  The Rhynns are all under suspicion by association, and some of them *did* help free Jaine from her intended execution some time ago, if you recall.  The Duke has few relatives, and he's DEFINITELY in trouble, what with marrying a rebel leader and all.  L'Aurel's out because she essentially has no relatives, and is just as suspicion worthy as the rest of them.  



> Why should we avoid Filmore or Rhynn?



 Because they're dangerous.  Like it or not, the very names are infamous, and are comparably risky.  My advice?  If you're going to pretend to be a noble, pick one that has *no* association with the Rebellion - you're just begging for suspicion, otherwise.


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## Laurel (Dec 3, 2004)

Do we know enough of any of the other houses to be one of them? One of the still in league with the king houses then.  
Even distant relatives know each other somehow and somewhat......


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## The_Universe (Dec 3, 2004)

IIRC, There are 32 great houses in the kingdom, and probably around 200-250 ranking nobles in the known world.


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## The_Universe (Dec 3, 2004)

There are also a large number of knights (although not in the horse and armor sense) around.  

Honorifics, only.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 6, 2004)

A thread for ideas for this side-quest...


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## Laurel (Dec 6, 2004)

So any random lesser noble's or distant relations of knights and noble's hanging out in our refugee group?  
I know some of few thousand is out- black orcs, Ryoko's group, Jaine, the circle, and the Duke.

When last we noticed heard was there a family that was closest to the King, his most avid supporters?

Or are we just making up a name with some family link and such?


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## The_Universe (Dec 6, 2004)

Well, Henry Hansberry - son of the apparently dead Duke Hansberry of Atur - was one of the weird assassins Tain sent after you the last time.  But, since Tain sent him after you, he's probably well aware of the current state of that House.


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## Archon (Dec 6, 2004)

*Bond......Gold Bond.*

hey guys, 
i'm back finnally and able to contribute. 
Everything is looking pretty good so far, i like the one noble with a couple servants idea, hell, it could be a pair of nobles that lost a son or daughter to the rebellion if we want to. Annd we could pull a "Luke-give-Jabba-his-droids" with one or two of the servants we bring. We present it as a gift and that gives us a couple angles to get info from him.
As of now i have a couple Character ideas. One is a James Bondy type (ex-talon, turned merchant prince, turned Shadow Stalker) who would make use of an awesome Prestige Class that's in the Sword & Sorcery book "Rangers and Rogues" which has a lot of cool stuff for any character we might make for this side game. Anyway, the class is called Vigil Stalker and it has special abilities like, "Blend In", "Read Faces", and "Perfect Disguise" to name a few   and all of the prerequisites are Ranger/Rogue based.
Anyway, my two cents.
mik aka "The Boy"


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## Laurel (Dec 6, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> hey guys,
> i'm back finnally and able to contribute.
> Everything is looking pretty good so far, i like the one noble with a couple servants idea, hell, it could be a pair of nobles that lost a son or daughter to the rebellion if we want to. Annd we could pull a "Luke-give-Jabba-his-droids" with one or two of the servants we bring. We present it as a gift and that gives us a couple angles to get info from him.



Good to see ya again 

I like the angle of presents.... good twist, and would allow and easier way to cover more ground and different times, events, and people.

A noble couple could work very easily, that would just depend on numbers playing this game.  If it ends up being only two people to get more diversity one noble/one servant works better, bigger group many more options.  
But it's an easy change and may give extra angles to the tales and such.  Kid, sibling, husband, and lover are all highly emotional losses and could easily push someone to revenge warpath, so again any could work.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 6, 2004)

I really like the idea of having a high level druid.  The whole being able to change into a cat and sulk around the palace is very appealing...

Can you see a Wild Shaped person with True Seeing?


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## Laurel (Dec 7, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Can you see a Wild Shaped person with True Seeing?





			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Wild Shape (Su)*: ...This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here.



 exceptions is that it turns the person into an animal a specific umber days, sizes and some specific alternate forms.


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> True Seeing... The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.



So yes, it sees through wild shape.
Things it does not see through:


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.


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## The_Universe (Dec 7, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> exceptions is that it turns the person into an animal a specific umber days, sizes and some specific alternate forms.
> So yes, it sees through wild shape.
> Things it does not see through:



 Cool.  All good things to know.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 7, 2004)

Need some very well trained rodents that can slink about the palace... and then come back and tell us what they heard.

Additionally, I think we should give the king a plant when we visit... some beautiful, exotic potted flower or something... then, later, we can speak with it.


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## Laurel (Dec 7, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Need some very well trained rodents that can slink about the palace... and then come back and tell us what they heard.
> 
> Additionally, I think we should give the king a plant when we visit... some beautiful, exotic potted flower or something... then, later, we can speak with it.



Saw those ideas on the help us plan thread.  Some other good ones too.

um... we would have to find something with slightly more int. then most rodents. A creature with a int of 2 no matter what it sees still only has an int. of 2. 

Plant's always good just have to bring it back to Hyrwl or have a druid in the group.
to King: Here's a bonsi
Few days later: your not treating it right we need to take it back
Action: bonsi to hywrl
To King: here king here's another one.

If druid in group he may already have a plant in his room... not sure how speak with plants works.... hmmm, have to look that up (though I should know this one!)


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## The_Universe (Dec 7, 2004)

> If druid in group he may already have a plant in his room... not sure how speak with plants works.... hmmm, have to look that up (though I should know this one!)



 I'm picturing a good cop/bad cop scene, yelling at a house fern. "Where were you last night?"

"He's not answering, Lenny - maybe we need to see if this guy's got a record.  He's been hanging around some noxious weeds...."

"You don't want us to find out what you've been doing, Plant.  Tell us what you know and we might be lenient!"


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## Laurel (Dec 22, 2004)

*A short inquiry*

Is there any way that if this ends up not being played out by PCs that it can still happen in the background with NPCs?  Using everything we have suggested as the partial plan and goal and such....?

It is a very cool idea and worth sending people to try, but the longer it can happen the better.  Just don't want months of in game time to pass and then it's useless or we can't go back or it can't happen at all.....


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## The_Universe (Dec 30, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Is there any way that if this ends up not being played out by PCs that it can still happen in the background with NPCs?  Using everything we have suggested as the partial plan and goal and such....?
> 
> It is a very cool idea and worth sending people to try, but the longer it can happen the better.  Just don't want months of in game time to pass and then it's useless or we can't go back or it can't happen at all.....



 Yes.  It can be considered to be happening (or at least assumed that your people are attempting to make it happen) even if you don't play it out.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 30, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Yes.  It can be considered to be happening (or at least assumed that your people are attempting to make it happen) even if you don't play it out.



 Once the semester starts, we'll see who has free time.


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