# The Lich (Origins)



## The Grumpy Celt (Jan 20, 2002)

Where did the lich come from? 

Namely, when did it first appear as a monster? Who created it? Why? What gave them the idea? 

These are not meant to be "in-game" questions, but out-of-game questions.

Many thanks to anyone who can provide an answer.


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## graydoom (Jan 20, 2002)

Just bumping this... I would like to know, too. I've never considered this... I've assumed that some fantasy author or game creator thought up the idea of a powerful magic-user that used his magic to achieve immortality through the dark arts... but I don't actually know anything.


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## Someguy (Jan 20, 2002)

I am actually interested too


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## MythandLore (Jan 20, 2002)

I *think* (I can't remeber for sure) Lich (Middle English) comes from Lic (Old English) for a dead body or corpse. (95% Likely  )

If anyone can find an online Old English or Middle Engish Dictionary you could find out for sure.


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## Darkness (Jan 20, 2002)

Hmm... The only thing I've found is in GURPS Undead:

"Since the lich is largely a modern-day fantasy construct, it isn't steeped in folklore, although undead sorcerers in general are all somewhat lich-like (e.g., Koschei the Undying from Russian folklore...)" *shrug* It's a start, I guess...


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## MythandLore (Jan 20, 2002)

Ask Gygax where his version is from, I know he's around here some where.
"Yo! Gary! Where are you?!"


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jan 20, 2002)

Darkness said:
			
		

> *(e.g., Koschei the Undying from Russian folklore*




Funny you should write this, but I *am* usuing Koschei as a lich in something I am working on.


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## Eosin the Red (Jan 20, 2002)

I to belive that it comes from Middle English - Lic = body or corpse.


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## Hand of Vecna (Jan 20, 2002)

I third the notion that lich/liche is Middle (or possibly Olde) English for "body" or "corpse"...


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## Grayswandir (Jan 20, 2002)

*Hmm*

While I'm not familiar with the original 1E Monster Manual (before my time), I do know that the Demilich appeared in the Monster Manual II.  Thus, I think it's a safe assumption that the Lich was in AD&D from the start (not sure about Original D&D though).  The GURPs quote above seems to imply that the Lich is actually a construct of D&D and did not appear before then.  I know there was a Lich in the first Final Fantasy game (along with some monsters that looks suspiciously like illithids), but that was probably borrowed from D&D as well. 

If I had to guess, I would consider the Lich to be D&D's version of that "undead sorcerer" type.  Of course, Col_Pladoh can probably put all questions here to rest.


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## CWD (Jan 20, 2002)

lich

A quaint old term meaning "body", either living or dead. Lich is a fine Old English term which inspired many hyphenated constructions like: lich-bell (a bell rung before the corpse), lich-gate (the covered entrance to a cemetery where mourners waited for the arrival of the clergyman who was to conduct the graveside service), lich-house (a mortuary), lich-lay (a tax to provide for churchyards), lich-rest (a grave), and lich-stone (a stone upon which a body could be placed to give the pall-bearers a rest). Old English law held that whatever way a lich passed became a lich-way or a public thoroughfare. This undoubtably was a reason for survivors living at the end of private roads on secluded estates to feel contempt towards the deceased. The practice has been discontinued.


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## MythandLore (Jan 20, 2002)

CWD said:
			
		

> *lich
> 
> A quaint old term meaning "body", either living or dead. Lich is a fine Old English term which inspired many hyphenated constructions like: lich-bell (a bell rung before the corpse), lich-gate (the covered entrance to a cemetery where mourners waited for the arrival of the clergyman who was to conduct the graveside service), lich-house (a mortuary), lich-lay (a tax to provide for churchyards), lich-rest (a grave), and lich-stone (a stone upon which a body could be placed to give the pall-bearers a rest). Old English law held that whatever way a lich passed became a lich-way or a public thoroughfare. This undoubtably was a reason for survivors living at the end of private roads on secluded estates to feel contempt towards the deceased. The practice has been discontinued. *




What book did you find it in?


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## Eosin the Red (Jan 20, 2002)

I found it in Websters.

Lic does indeed mean body or corpse in Olde English.


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## A2Z (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Hmm*



			
				Grayswandir said:
			
		

> *I know there was a Lich in the first Final Fantasy game (along with some monsters that looks suspiciously like illithids), but that was probably borrowed from D&D as well.
> *




They also had a marilith demon, a kraken and of course Tiamat. 


As to the lich. I too remember reading that the name meant corpse. As to the origins... I'm have no clue. It would seem they are purely made up. However I don't think we'd have too much trouble finding mythological of fictional references to undead sorcerers.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jan 20, 2002)

beump.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jan 21, 2002)

Bump agian.

Thanks.


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## Darraketh (Jan 21, 2002)

*"lich"* is also listed an adjective meaning "like; equal" although the dictionary also lists it as obscure.

This is interesting in that the Lich in D&D term is like the dead or a corpse in most ways.


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## Grayswandir (Jan 21, 2002)

So lich (an undead sorcerer) lich (is similar to) lich (a corpse)?  Now that *is* interesting.  I suppose I already knew that lich lich lich, but not quite in those words.


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## Geoffrey (Jan 21, 2002)

I can give you the answer to part of your question:

The lich first appeared in D&D in the Greyhawk supplement, written by Gary Gygax and Robert J. Kuntz and published in 1975.

Here's what the book has to say about liches:

Alignment: Neutral or Chaotic
Number of Attacks: 1
Damage per Attack: 1-10 plus special
Number Appearing: 1-4
Armor Class: 3
Move: 6
Hit Dice: 10+
% in Lair: 100%
Type of Treasure: A

LICHES: These skeletal monsters are of magical origin, each Lich formerly being a very powerful Magic-User/Cleric in life, and now alive only by means of great spells and will because of being in some way disturbed. A Lich ranges from 12th level upwards, typically being 18th level of Magic-Use. They are able to employ whatever spells are usable at their appropriate level, and in addition their touch causes paralization, no saving throw. The mere sight of a Lich will send creatures below 5th level fleeing in fear.

And that, my friend, is how the lich got started in D&D. It's pre-D&D days, though, are unknown to me.


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## Ulrick (Jan 21, 2002)

I always thought "lich" was German meaning "corpse." But then I typed "lich" into an online German to English translator.  The word "laughed" came up...

 


Ulrick


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## Darkness (Jan 21, 2002)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Funny you should write this, but I *am* usuing Koschei as a lich in something I am working on. *



Heh. That's a rather Cool coincidence!  Care to tell me more about that? 



			
				Geoffrey said:
			
		

> *I can give you the answer to part of your question:
> 
> The lich first appeared in D&D in the Greyhawk supplement, written by Gary Gygax and Robert J. Kuntz and published in 1975.
> 
> ... A Lich ranges from 12th level upwards, typically being 18th level of Magic-Use. ...*



Now _that_ is interesting, considering that, since 3e, a lich needs to be 11th level rather than 18th in 2e. 'cause nowadays, you need to be 11th level (if wizard or cleric) to cast 6th-level spells, whereas before, you needed to be 12th level. So this is one of the points where the designers went back to 1e rather than 2e. Cool; me like... 



			
				Ulrick said:
			
		

> *I always thought "lich" was German meaning "corpse." But then I typed "lich" into an online German to English translator.  The word "laughed" came up...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



corpse = Leiche.


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## Gez (Jan 21, 2002)

In Ars Magica (4e or 3e ? I don't remember. I have the French translation by Descarte, I think it was of the version before WotC reprinted it), there was some rules about liches. They said that the word "lich" was a deformation of a celtic word for "life". I found it interesting, given that "golem" had the same origin (deformation of a hebraic name for life, they were also supposed to carry a phylactery with "golem" written on it, and if you deleted one letter, it became the word for "death" and the golem was destroyed. At least that's what I've heard, I'm unable to verify it first-handely).


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## Sammael99 (Jan 21, 2002)

Gez said:
			
		

> *In Ars Magica (4e or 3e ? I don't remember. I have the French translation by Descarte, I think it was of the version before WotC reprinted it), there was some rules about liches. They said that the word "lich" was a deformation of a celtic word for "life". I found it interesting, given that "golem" had the same origin (deformation of a hebraic name for life, they were also supposed to carry a phylactery with "golem" written on it, and if you deleted one letter, it became the word for "death" and the golem was destroyed. At least that's what I've heard, I'm unable to verify it first-handely). *




From what I remember, Golem's actually have the word "life" written in hebraic on their forehead, and since there's only one letter difference between the words "life" and "death", you have to wipe one letter to destroy them. 

Still second hand info, though


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## Darraketh (Jan 21, 2002)

*Back to the dictionary*

*lich*, _n_ a dead body; a corpse. [Scot. and Brit. Dial.]


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## Lothaire (Jan 23, 2002)

Sammael99 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> From what I remember, Golem's actually have the word "life" written in hebraic on their forehead, and since there's only one letter difference between the words "life" and "death", you have to wipe one letter to destroy them.
> 
> Still second hand info, though  *




This is true.


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## MythandLore (Jan 23, 2002)

Sammael99 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> From what I remember, Golem's actually have the word "life" written in hebraic on their forehead, and since there's only one letter difference between the words "life" and "death", you have to wipe one letter to destroy them.
> 
> Still second hand info, though  *




The most famous Golem myth comes from 10th-16th century Prague.
It was a protector of the Jews created by a Rabbi using Holy Words.
It's was made of clay and it's skeleton was made of wood and rags.
The golem understood human language and would obey verbal commands, but itself was mute.
In order that the golem be able to do its work independently, each day the Rabbi wrote instructions on a piece of paper, which he then put in the golemâs mouth.
The power of this written word is what caused the golem to be active in the absence of verbal commands.
The golem accumulated enough experience and knowledge as to develop a human personality.
His physical power and status as guard of the community went to his head, and he became a menace to the public safety he was supposed to be protecting.
The Rabbi eventually had to unmake his creation in order to prevent disaster.
Today a statue of this golem stands at the entrance to the Jewish sector of Prague.
Here is an old photo of the statue below.


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## Darkness (Jan 23, 2002)

MythandLore said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The most famous Golem myth comes from 10th-16th century Prague.
> ...
> Here is an old photo of the statue below. *



Man, that myth sure was impressing me more _before_ I saw that picture!  No offense, k?


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## grodog (Jan 23, 2002)

*more on lich origins*

In *The Dragon #26* Len Lakofka published an article entitled "Blueprint for a Lich."  Issue 26 would be sometime around 1977-78 or so, though I don't have the exact date handy.  It expanded upon the info from Greyhawk and MM1, IIRC, and was also reprinted in the Best of Dragon #2.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 12, 2004)

_A wandering threadcromancer strikes!  Take 1d6 damage!_



Spoiler



Sorry, silly mood.


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## Ssyleia (Jun 12, 2004)

Ulrick said:
			
		

> I always thought "lich" was German meaning "corpse." But then I typed "lich" into an online German to English translator.  The word "laughed" came up...




The German word is "leiche" (pronounce Lye-shee) --> that goes pretty well along with "lich", especially if you pronounce it with a northern German accent. Since the English language is influenced heavily by both Germanic and Latin sources my guess is that "corpse", deriving from Latin "corpus" sometimes during the late medieval displaced the Germanic lich...


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## Wycen (Jun 12, 2004)

Which bring up the question, how does one pronounce lich?  I've always said "litch" but have heard "lick".


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## Alzrius (Jun 12, 2004)

No one seems to be paying attention to what The Grumpy Celt actually asked. The origins of the word "lich" are all well and good, but what are the origins of the actual monster? What are the oldest references to a spellcaster becoming an unliving horror?

Beyond the Golem reference (which explains the phylactery), and the reference to Koschei the Undying, not much headway has been made in that regard.


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## Krellic (Jun 12, 2004)

One fairly common derivation of this term is that of lich-gate, being the gate through coffins carrying the deceased are brought into a church.  We have such a construction attached to our church grounds, unremarkable in itself bar the name.

I believe a lot of churches in the UK, especially older ones might boast such, our church is 19th century I believe.

And even by those who'd not know a game of D&D if you hit them over the head with it it was always pronounced to rhyme with itch...


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## Snoweel (Jun 12, 2004)

Wycen said:
			
		

> Which bring up the question, how does one pronounce lich?  I've always said "litch" but have heard "lick".




The Swedish for 'corpse' is 'lik', pronounced halfway between 'lick' and 'leek'.

And can I just point out that the Scandinavian languages are most closely related to Old English.

'Coffin' is 'likkista', literally 'corpse chest'.

And for the record, I'd always pronounced it 'litch' as well, having never thought about the similarity, though now I do believe I've been wrong all this time.

Heh. Now I know what it must feel like for those who thought 'Drow' rhymed with 'throw'.


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## 2late (Jun 12, 2004)

From: http://www.geocities.com/rgfdfaq/sources.html

Lich, lych
    A lychgate is an entrance to a churchyard where a body rests before burial--"lych" means person or dead body (From German "Leiche", meaning "dead body, cadaver, corpse"). The D&D lich is very similar to a character from Taran Wanderer, by Lloyd Alexander, a magician with an unnaturally-extended life who can only die if the item he has stored his soul in is broken (in this case, a bone from his little finger); however, the term "lich" is never used in the book. The origin of both the D&D lich and Alexander's character is probably the Russian folkloric character "Kotshchey the Deathless", also an unnaturally long-lived magician (or demon) who was almost impossible to kill.


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## JonnyReb (Jun 12, 2004)

Ok, I hate to admit it because I don't recall the fellows name, but years ago I worked in a gaming store in Monterey CA and there was a fellow who claimed that he was one of the first DnDers, a personal friend of EGG, now in CA because he was in the Coast Guard. 

We were skeptical of his claim, but he was never pushy about it, nor boastful, and as time went by we came to feel he was telling the truth. ( His name *was* in the group credits in the 1st ed PHB for whatever that meant)

Anyhow, his one claim to DnD "fame" was that he invented the Lich. Where or how he came up with the name he never said, but he was running an adventure and needed a powerful magic using undead for the final encounter. He did a little mythological research and came up with the lich. 

Supposedly, when they were getting ready to copyright the very first DnD game EGG offered this fellow $25 for the "rights" to "his" Lich, which he accepted. 

How true is the story? I've always more or less believed it, mostly because I believed him. I mean, if someone was going to fake being one of the original DnDers, don't you think they'd come up with someting more grandiose then one monster? Besides, if he was telling the truth about that, then all his stories about the early days of DnD and TSR were true, and there were some doosies!

Anyway, that's how I've heard the story, for what it's worth....


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## Yair (Jun 12, 2004)

Sammael99 said:
			
		

> From what I remember, Golem's actually have the word "life" written in hebraic on their forehead, and since there's only one letter difference between the words "life" and "death", you have to wipe one letter to destroy them.
> 
> Still second hand info, though



The word is "אמת", truth, which when you remove the first letter becomes "מת", dead. 
I am not familiar with the story about the Rabi writing new instructions each day. While it WAS the power of the word that gave power to the golem (an analogy as to how the power of the word of god gave rise to existence in jewish theology), it was not replaced to my knowledge. The rabi simply erased the first letter.

Yair
[Hebrew is my native tongue, but I'm not sure about the actual story. Seeing the hebrew in the post above would require you to install hebrew fonts   ]


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## Sleepy Voiced (Jun 12, 2004)

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned Clark Ashton Smith as a source for liches in D&D. He uses the word as a descriptor for generally mindless animated corpses in several of his stories.  I believe EGG has listed Smith as recommended reading in the 1E DMG, but I could be wrong (don't have my copy at hand).


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## Vrecknidj (Jun 12, 2004)

Agreeing with 2late, previously, here's another definition.

lych-gate [lích gàyt] (plural lych-gates) or lich-gate [lích gàyt] (plural lich-gates) n covered gateway into churchyard: a covered gateway into a churchyard. Traditionally, pallbearers would rest the coffin there before carrying it into the church.  


[15th century. From Old English lic “body, corpse” + gate .]
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


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## Ycore Rixle (Jun 12, 2004)

Sleepy Voiced said:
			
		

> I believe EGG has listed Smith as recommended reading in the 1E DMG, but I could be wrong (don't have my copy at hand).




You know, I thought he did too, but I just looked, and Smith isn't there. *shrug*


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## Brilbadr (Jun 12, 2004)

*suggestion*

The first lich that springs to mind for me, and has the most impact on how i represent them in roleplaying, the Dweomer-liche from Tolkien. This is of course the Nazgul. I always took this to mean Magic-corpse. Following the  english roots in my fav homestudy dictionary. Where did Tolkien get it from? Probably his mother, where his deep love of old-english, germanic and norse lore was instilled. His stories he described as containing threads of half-remembered fairytales told at his mother's knee. He later went on to study them and took up the Chair of Old English lit... i.e. became THE authority. But you all know this, I just like to idolise the old (deceased) chap.
 :\


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## tleilaxu (Jun 12, 2004)

the prototypical example of lich in fantasy literature that i can think of are the gods of lankhmar from the fafhrd and grey mouser stories. 

they are exactly like the demi-liches as described in the ELH, soul gems and all!

they exist in some crypt way below the streets of lankhmar. when coming into conflict with the thieve's guild fafhrd finds himself face to face with these skulls, who basically demand he recover their companion demi-lich (stolen by a thief) or have his soul sucked out.

also, if the city is ever threatened by outsiders the gods of lankhmar can be summoned by ringing the bells from some tower. however, they don't like to be summoned. they only answer the call because they want the city undisturbed so they can mentally roam the multiverse or something. but to discourage people from calling them too often and to ensure there is always a good reason for their calling, they lay waste to the city itself, doing as much if not more damage than most threats to the city would do. so its a last ditch thing to protect the city from certain doom.

anyone who remembers the exact name of the short story i am referencing help me out?


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 12, 2004)

Brilbadr said:
			
		

> The first lich that springs to mind for me, and has the most impact on how i represent them in roleplaying, the Dweomer-liche from Tolkien.




Thanks. I had almost forgotten I had posted this in the first place - it was like two years ago. I am still working on this book. But as there are no real mythical precidents I have more or less made it all up.


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## tleilaxu (Jun 12, 2004)

whoa... after your post celt i went back and looked at the date of the original post. 

this thread is a veritable lich itself!

it lives!!! mwaaaa!


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## MagonusTyrarr (Jun 12, 2004)

This site, which I've used for research before, has lic meaning body.  Just to further confirm .


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## Davelozzi (Jun 12, 2004)

MythandLore said:
			
		

> The most famous Golem myth comes from 10th-16th century Prague.  It was a protector of the Jews created by a Rabbi using Holy Words...




Isn't _Frankenstein_ a bit more famous?


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## Melan (Jun 12, 2004)

Actually, the first appearance of a fantasy "lich" predates Leiber: Thulsa Doom in Howard's Kull stories was suspiciously like one (the following quote is translated back from the Hungarian):
"The man's face was a bare, wax-white deaths head, pale blue flames glowering in his eye sockets.
'Thulsa Doom' - cried Ka-nu."


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## Rev_Spider (Jun 12, 2004)

I recall H.P. Lovecraft used the word lich to describe an undead sorceress. (Dreams in the Witch House, maybe? I don't recall the specific story...)


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## nikolai (Jun 12, 2004)

Hi all,

People posting that Lich (and variants) are Middle English for corpse are spot on. The source of the monster, however, comes from early Sword & Sorcery writings. This monster was then D&Dised, through the various Dragon articles and D&D material that has already been listed, to become the undead spellcaster we all know and love.

*Sources*

I think the big infuence was Clark Ashton Smith. He was one of the "big three" wierd tales writers (along with Lovecraft and Howard). See:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/main/classicsaveroigne
http://www.eldritchdark.com

He is the big inspiration for how necromany is presented in fantasy. His stories are full of the undead, including undead wizards and necromancers, and he often used the work lich as an archaic word for corpse. It's entirely natural that in the hunt for new D&D monsters, someone who'd read Smith's would think a undead wizard would be a cool foe. And if you have an undead wizard, and a sentence like "the lich walked towards me" (meaning "the corpse walked towards me"), it's an easy step for the word Lich to be come the name of a new monster. I'll have a re-read of his stuff and cite some specific short stories.

Ashton Smith's work influence later Conan stuff, both Howard and the pastiches. I don't this Howard uses the word lich (at least in the Conan stories), but he does have revived millenia old sorcerers. The same themes are found in some of Lovecraft's stuff is very close to Smith, who I'm sure used the word lich (if not the monster) in his stories.

Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (Lieber): These have the Gods of Lankhmar. They are undead, mysterious and very powerful guardians of the Lankhmar. I don't think the word lich is used to describe them though - or that they are explicitly labelled as wizards.



			
				tleilaxu said:
			
		

> anyone who remembers the exact name of the short story i am referencing help me out?




Thieves House from Swords Against Death. The jewelled skull was obviously transformed into the demi-lich. The Gods feature in the background of other Lanhkmar stories though, The Swords of Lankhmar is another story where they have an appearance.

So it's all inspired by classic fantasy literature.


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## grodog (Jun 13, 2004)

JonnyReb said:
			
		

> Ok, I hate to admit it because I don't recall the fellows name, but years ago I worked in a gaming store in Monterey CA and there was a fellow who claimed that he was one of the first DnDers, a personal friend of EGG, now in CA because he was in the Coast Guard.
> 
> We were skeptical of his claim, but he was never pushy about it, nor boastful, and as time went by we came to feel he was telling the truth. ( His name *was* in the group credits in the 1st ed PHB for whatever that meant)




JonnyReb, I'm curious if you could ID the name from the 1e PHB list of Thank Yous, if that was provided?


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## kolvar (Jun 13, 2004)

As far as my dictionary goes, the pronounciation of litch is something like litsh.
And as far as the origin goes: You have a monster that looks like a corpse and you want an oldish name for it. Zombie etc is taken, walking corpse does not have the ring, but there is this one word, more germanic, more archaic: lich.


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## tarchon (Jun 13, 2004)

nikolai said:
			
		

> He is the big inspiration for how necromany is presented in fantasy. His stories are full of the undead, including undead wizards and necromancers, and he often used the work lich as an archaic word for corpse. It's entirely natural that in the hunt for new D&D monsters, someone who'd read Smith's would think a undead wizard would be a cool foe. And if you have an undead wizard, and a sentence like "the lich walked towards me" (meaning "the corpse walked towards me"), it's an easy step for the word Lich to be come the name of a new monster. I'll have a re-read of his stuff and cite some specific short stories.



You're right on with this - it was used occasionally as a synonym for corpse, and  as far as I can tell it was only in D&D that it became specified to an animated corpse.  "Skeleton" and "shadow" developed similarly, but with those, people were aware that they already had more generic meanings.  "Lich" wasn't invented for fantasy particularly, but it's rare enough that the generic meaning is not usually recognized.


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## mmadsen (Jan 28, 2007)

nikolai said:
			
		

> I think the big infuence was Clark Ashton Smith.



Absolutely.  His Death of Malagris (from 1934) involves a very D&D-style lich: "Verily," murmured Nygon, "there is naught here to frighten or dismay us. Behold, it is only the lich of an old man after all, and one that has cheated the worm of his due provender overlong."

"Aye," said Fustules. "But this man, in his time, was the greatest of all necromancers. Even the ring on his little finger is a sovereign talisman. The balas-ruby of the thumbring of his right hand will conjure demons from out of the deep. In the volumes that lie about the chamber, there are secrets of perished gods and the mysteries of planets immemorial. In the vials, there are sirups that give strange visions, and philtres that can revive the dead. Among these things, it is ours to choose freely."​


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## Psion (Jan 28, 2007)

How appropriate: thread necromancy of a thread about necromancy. 

In addition to the above story, another was _Empire of Necromancers_.


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## Shayuri (Jan 28, 2007)

As far as undead mages and liches...it's a convention of folklore that the key to immortality via the black arts is to place one's soul in a vessel other than one's body. Sometimes this vessel was a body part...which then had to be removed and stored separately. Other times it was an inanimate object. That's the origin of the "phylactery" at least.

There's all kinds of stories about sorcerors who remove their hearts, little fingers, etc...and can't be killed while that removed organ remains sound. Inanimate objects are less common, and more likely to be modern, but I'll see if I can't dig up any references...

It's worth pointing out that these undying mages didn't usually LOOK dead though. I'll see what I can turn up.


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## frankthedm (Jan 28, 2007)

"Sticks", by _Karl Edward Wagner_, first published in the March 1974 issue of Whispers refers to an undead creature as a lich, later revealed to be a magic user.

Good story. Really recommend it.


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## mmadsen (Jan 28, 2007)

Psion said:
			
		

> How appropriate: thread necromancy of a thread about necromancy.



Fully intended, by the way. 


			
				Psion said:
			
		

> In addition to the above story, another was _Empire of Necromancers_.



In The Empire of the Necromancers though, the "liches" are simple reanimated corpses, used for slave labor, not undead necromancers: After a while, in the gray waste, they found the remnant of another horse and rider, which the jackals had spared and the sun had dried to the leanness of old mummies. These also they raised up from death; and Mmatmuor bestrode the withered charger; and the two magicians rode on in state, like errant emperors, with a lich and a skeleton to attend them. Other bones and charnel remnants of men and beasts, to which they came anon, were duly resurrected in like fashion; so that they gathered to themselves an everswelling train in their progress through Cincor.​(Read the story if you want to see how they diverge from D&D's zombies; I don't want to ruin it for you.)


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## mmadsen (Jan 28, 2007)

As you can see -- thanks to Google -- Clark Ashton Smith used the word "lich" in many stories: The Stairs in the Crypt by Clark Ashton Smith
At first the partially-revived lich lay somnolent and unmoving in a numb and ... Suffice it to say that, in the fullness of time, the lich had recovered its ...
www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/199/the-stairs-in-the-crypt - 27k

The Empire of the Necromancers by Clark Ashton Smith
These also they raised up from death; and Mmatmuor bestrode the withered charger; and the two magicians rode on in state, like errant emperors, with a lich ...
www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/61/the-empire-of-the-necromancers - 27k

The Last Hieroglyph by Clark Ashton Smith
Terror quickened in Nushain's heart, and it came to him that the shrouded shape, whether lich or phantom, resembled the weird, invasive hieroglyph that had ...
www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/111/the-last-hieroglyph - 43k

The Double Shadow by Clark Ashton Smith
"For," said Avyctes, "I have called up, in all the years of my sorcery, no god or devil, no demon or lich or shadow, which I could not control and dismiss ...
www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/53 - 35k

The Abominations of Yondo by Clark Ashton Smith
Then, with one stride, the titanic lich took half the distance between us, and from out the folds of the tattered sere-cloth a gaunt arm arose, ...
www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/2 - 21k

The Death of Malygris by Clark Ashton Smith
Behold, it is only the lich of an old man after all, and one that has cheated the worm of his due provender overlong." "Aye," said Fustules. ...
www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/39/the-death-of-malygris - 34k

The Infernal Star (Fragment) by Clark Ashton Smith
He was close to the oaken library table, on which The Testaments of Carnamagos lay open at the lich-destroying formula, with the leaves weighted by a small ...
www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/101/the-infernal-star-(fragment) - 68k

Necromancy in Naat by Clark Ashton Smith
So, in answer to the unholy rites and incantations of necromancy, Yadar arose to such life as was possible for a resurrected lich. And he walked again, ...
www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/151/necromancy-in-naat - 50k​


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## Akrasia (Jan 28, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> No one seems to be paying attention to what The Grumpy Celt actually asked. The origins of the word "lich" are all well and good, but what are the origins of the actual monster?  ...




I read somewhere that -- irrespective of other possible sources for the 'lich' -- Gary Gygax based the _D&D_ lich on a character from one of R.E. Howard's Conan stories (most likely _Xaltotun_ from 'The Hour of the Dragon', but Melan might be right in identifying 'Thulsa Doom' as the character).


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## ruleslawyer (Jan 28, 2007)

Rev_Spider said:
			
		

> I recall H.P. Lovecraft used the word lich to describe an undead sorceress. (Dreams in the Witch House, maybe? I don't recall the specific story...)



The Thing on the Doorstep is the one that features the word "lich." However, it's being used in the standard context (corpse), rather than anything related to undead or spellcasting.

I'd say Thulsa Doom is more spot-on than Xaltotun. After all, Xaltotun has the semblance of a living man, and where not referred to as a living man, is called a "mummy." 

IIRC, the Gods of Lankhmar are full-on skeletal beings, not merely skulls.

Finally, 11th level for lichdom is going back to OD&D, not 1e. In 1e, a lich was either a magic-user (minimum 18th level) or a magic-user/cleric (18th level in EACH). Scary, hmm?


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## tensen (Jan 28, 2007)

Psion said:
			
		

> How appropriate: thread necromancy of a thread about necromancy.
> 
> In addition to the above story, another was _Empire of Necromancers_.




Like any true Lich, a thread like this should never stay dead.

It always interests me to learn about the backstory on some of the creatures we've learned to expect in our games.  But makes me wonder based on how writer's of those era's functioned, whether it was collective unconsciousness that spurred the creation, whether they shared their results (or appropriated them), or whether this was based on something even older.


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## Psion (Jan 28, 2007)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> In The Empire of the Necromancers though, the "liches" are simple reanimated corpses, used for slave labor, not undead necromancers:




Not entirely true. If memory serves, the necromancers reanimate the residents of the ancient kingdoms, but then the rogue undead consults with an ancient master of some sort about secrets he needs to turn against the necromancers.


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## T. Foster (Jan 29, 2007)

I'm fairly certain the D&D lich comes directly from the Gardner Fox story "The Sword of the Sorcerer," part of the collection _Kothar - Barbarian Swordsman_ (Belmont Books, 1969). The creature in that story not only has the _exact_ characteristics of the D&D lich (physical description, fear aura, paralysis ability, magic ability _way_ beyond typical PC level (average 18th in an era where PCs typically topped out around 12th level), not-necessarily-evil alignment (listed in both the neutral and chaos columns)), it's also described/referred to specifically as "lich" repeatedly in the text:


			
				Gardner Fox said:
			
		

> [Kothar] found himself staring at a flat slab of stone that rested on marble amphoras. It was a crypt, this place in hollow rock. And that dead thing wrapped in funereal garments, brown with age, was what lay buried in it. he had blundered into a tomb.
> 
> His lips twisted in a grin. Let the dead shelter him who sought life in this sanctuary. He was about to turn and close the iron door when the hairs on the back of his neck stood up.
> 
> ...



And so on. While many of the sources cited previously (REH and CAS in particular) are undoubtedly also correct, insofar as they were strong influences upon Fox, I have no doubt that this book was the specific proximate source of the D&D "lich" as depicted in OD&D Supplement I.


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## TheAuldGrump (Jan 29, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> "Sticks", by _Karl Edward Wagner_, first published in the March 1974 issue of Whispers refers to an undead creature as a lich, later revealed to be a magic user.
> 
> Good story. Really recommend it.



It was reprinted in an anthology from Whispers as well.

Liches, as we know them, most likely originated in the pulp magazine Weird Tales, where Smith, Howard, and Lovecraft all made their home. 

I wish that I still had my collection. While there were some real dogs there were also some real gems.

The Auld Grump


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## Merkuri (Jan 29, 2007)

Kinda related... my boyfriend and I were talking about liches during a car ride one night near my hometown, and we passed through the town of Litchfield.  Knowing that "lich" is an archaic word for "corpse" made us laugh, because Litchfield is a very affluent area and they probably wouldn't appreciate knowing their town name basically means "graveyard".


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## Huw (Jan 29, 2007)

Would anyone consider Dorian Gray a lich?

BTW, there's a Lichfield in the UK which is definitely rimes with "itch". Don't think many people know what it means though.


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## Desdichado (Jan 29, 2007)

Ssyleia said:
			
		

> The German word is "leiche" (pronounce Lye-shee) --> that goes pretty well along with "lich", especially if you pronounce it with a northern German accent. Since the English language is influenced heavily by both Germanic and Latin sources my guess is that "corpse", deriving from Latin "corpus" sometimes during the late medieval displaced the Germanic lich...



English isn't just heavily influenced by Germanic sources--it *is* a West Germanic language, who's origins lie mostly on the coastline of what today are the low countries.  Frisian is it's closest "sister language" but both Dutch and German are close genetic relatives as well.  The reason lich and leiche are so similar is because they are cognates--the same word from the same source with different influences on them since the separation of those who went on to become German speakers and those who went on to become English speakers.

If you look at texts for Old High German, Old Low Franconian and Old English, the similarities are even more pronounced and striking.

Anyway, English also had a fairly long-running and influential contact with Northern Germanic languages, via the Danelaw and other formerly Viking settlements in Britain itself, and then from Norman French from--well, from the Normans.  There's actually very little direct Latin influence, but since Norman French is of course a descendent of local vulgar Latin in northern Gaul, it had a pretty significant influence on the development of English--mostly in the enrichment of the vocabulary.  English is somewhat unique--or at least unusual--in that while it accosted and took a lot of this French-based vocabulary and Anglicized it, it also tended to keep it's "native" vocabulary for the most part too, leading English to have one of the richest and most diverse vocabularies of any language in general use today.

However, this particular situation is not one where that happened; the native word lic-->lich (compare with Dutch _lijk_, German _Leiche_ and Swedish _lik_ did not really survive, and the Latin based one, _corpus_-->corpse did.

However, thanks to Clark Ashton Smith, who was an extremely well-read and very erudite writer with a command of the English language equalled by very, very few, the word entered the vocabulary of Weird Tales pulp fiction, which is likely where Gygax first encountered it, and it has taken on a second wind in fantasy at least.


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## Desdichado (Jan 29, 2007)

JonnyReb said:
			
		

> Ok, I hate to admit it because I don't recall the fellows name, but years ago I worked in a gaming store in Monterey CA and there was a fellow who claimed that he was one of the first DnDers, a personal friend of EGG, now in CA because he was in the Coast Guard.
> 
> We were skeptical of his claim, but he was never pushy about it, nor boastful, and as time went by we came to feel he was telling the truth. ( His name *was* in the group credits in the 1st ed PHB for whatever that meant)
> 
> ...



Nope, completely fabricated.  Clark Ashton Smith used the word lich to refer to corpses, especially those of wizards who used their magic to return from the dead.  Gygax no doubt was very familiar with CAS's work, and given the direct correspondence between how CAS used the word and how the earliest D&D lich looked, it's almost guaranteed that that's the nearest proximate source for the lich as a monster in D&D.


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## Desdichado (Jan 29, 2007)

Brilbadr said:
			
		

> The first lich that springs to mind for me, and has the most impact on how i represent them in roleplaying, the Dweomer-liche from Tolkien. This is of course the Nazgul. I always took this to mean Magic-corpse. Following the  english roots in my fav homestudy dictionary. Where did Tolkien get it from? Probably his mother, where his deep love of old-english, germanic and norse lore was instilled. His stories he described as containing threads of half-remembered fairytales told at his mother's knee. He later went on to study them and took up the Chair of Old English lit... i.e. became THE authority. But you all know this, I just like to idolise the old (deceased) chap.
> :\



Except Tolkein didn't use the word lich, he used the word laik.  The "dweomer-liche" you refer to is actually "dwimmerlaik" and Eowyn uses it to describe the Witch-king.


> "Begone, foul dimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace".
> 
> A cold voice answered "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind left naked to the Lidless Eye".
> 
> ...



After reading that, it makes one despair of ever writing anything meaningful in the fantasy field ever again--or at least of writing anything that's Tolkien derivative.  That's probably one of my favorite passages of the entire Lord of the Rings, so I assiduously avoid even approaching it at all, since there's no way I could ever hope to top it.

Although no doubt the execution of the concept in D&D owes a fair bit to the Nazgul in general.


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## DragonLancer (Jan 29, 2007)

I assume that Lich comes from Lichgate, which is the entrance to a churchyard.


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## Desdichado (Jan 29, 2007)

Well... **ahem** shoulda read the whole thread before replying.  Looks like the Clark Ashton Smith angle has already been pretty thoroughly covered.


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## Voadam (Jan 29, 2007)

Melan said:
			
		

> Actually, the first appearance of a fantasy "lich" predates Leiber: Thulsa Doom in Howard's Kull stories was suspiciously like one (the following quote is translated back from the Hungarian):
> "The man's face was a bare, wax-white deaths head, pale blue flames glowering in his eye sockets.
> 'Thulsa Doom' - cried Ka-nu."




This was my guess too.

IIRC Kull and his pict buddy uncover the sorcerer who is trying to take over Kull's empire using serpent people dopplegangers to replace Kull. The pict buddy stabs the sorcerer through the ribs with his bronze sword but both are struck motionless by cold and fear as he reveals his skeletal reality, flames burning from within his eyesockets. The sorcerer walks out calmly at that point, unconcerned about the sword through his chest. He boasts about his ancientness, mastery of magics, and promises that even though Kull killed his serpent man double the sorcerer will be back to take over the empire some other way later.


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## Garnfellow (Jan 29, 2007)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> I'm fairly certain the D&D lich comes directly from the Gardner Fox story "The Sword of the Sorcerer," part of the collection _Kothar - Barbarian Swordsman_ (Belmont Books, 1969).




DING DING! I think you have nailed it. 

It seems clear that most of the weird fiction authors were reading the works of their contemporaries and picking up and reusing some archaic and obscure words. I suspect a thorough survey of the pulps would find plenty more uses of "lich" than the already impressive number of examples cited in this thread.

But Fox's use seems to be the one that comes very close to lich in the D&D sense. A great find!


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## AFGNCAAP (Jan 29, 2007)

Garnfellow said:
			
		

> DING DING! I think you have nailed it.
> 
> It seems clear that most of the weird fiction authors were reading the works of their contemporaries and picking up and reusing some archaic and obscure words. I suspect a thorough survey of the pulps would find plenty more uses of "lich" than the already impressive number of examples cited in this thread.
> 
> But Fox's use seems to be the one that comes very close to lich in the D&D sense. A great find!




Did Fox's have the phylactery aspect of the lich as well, or is that from another source (Koschei, for example)?


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## T. Foster (Jan 29, 2007)

AFGNCAAP said:
			
		

> Did Fox's have the phylactery aspect of the lich as well, or is that from another source (Koschei, for example)?



 The phylactery isn't mentioned in the part of the story I was quoting from yesterday (the character's first appearance) but I didn't re-read the entire story, and the character reappears in a couple later stories as well, so it might be in there somewhere (I don't recall it specifically, though). However, note that the phylactery also isn't mentioned anywhere in the original OD&D Supplement I monster description (quoted by *Geoffrey* on p. 1 of this thread) -- it's first mentioned in the AD&D MM1 write-up, by which time Gygax may well have been deliberately trying to incorporate additional elements outside of Fox so as to broaden the monster into a more generic/universal "undead sorcerer" type.


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## frankthedm (Jan 30, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> It was reprinted in an anthology from Whispers as well.



Tales of the Cthulhu mythos also has a reprint.

D. Carson did a nice Illo based on the sticks story.


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## crazy_cat (Jan 30, 2007)

DragonLancer said:
			
		

> I assume that Lich comes from Lichgate, which is the entrance to a churchyard.



I'm pretty sure its the other way round actually. Lich is olde English for body, so the Lichgate became over time the name for the entrance to the graveyard through which the body was carried.


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## Choranzanus (Jan 30, 2007)

*Koshchei*

I am pretty sure that concept of lich was influenced by Koshchei Bessmertnii, althought it is probably not the actual origin of the concept. The name quite litterally means "Skeleton the Immortal" and he is a very powerful sorcerer, who hides his life in a well hidden and guarded inanimate object.


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## Melan (Jan 30, 2007)

T. Foster: good find! That's what I get for not reading Conan knockoffs...


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## Prince Atom (Jan 30, 2007)

I'm not sure how much of Koschei made it through to the D&D lich, however. Yes, he is an undying skeleton-sorcerer who keeps his "death" in some other thing than his body; but he has problems with women, specifically, he can't help loving them. Quite often a canny woman will use his infatuation to get the better of him and exploit his power for his own ends. GURPS Russia has some interesting info on this old Russian legend, including the observation that it was often Koschei who needed rescuing, not the women. Koschei also features in GURPS Cabal.

A recent Demonomicon article in Dragon was about a demon, Kostchtchie, who shares a similar name but is a demon, not an undead (my wife thought that the name was a total rip-off, but she's hardly unbiased when it comes to Russian folk tales).

I think that the modern concept of Lich has some roots in Koschie, but it's been expanded and made more generic. Vecna certainly has fed back into the idea.

As far as the old pulp weird tales go, perhaps the authors were looking for a more challenging sorcerer for their thewmongers, since Conan et al. were certainly capable of cleaving your run-of-the-mill living sorcerer in twain without even breaking a sweat. But this thing's already dead! It's going to take _at least_ two whacks with your sword.

TWK


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## BOZ (Feb 2, 2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lich_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)


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## frankthedm (Jul 11, 2007)

ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> The Thing on the Doorstep is the one that features the word "lich." However, it's being used in the standard context (corpse), rather than anything related to undead or spellcasting.



Actually, while HPL still only meant ‘lich’ as ‘corpse’,  the "Bullet riddled lich" was _still_ capable of casting spells. That does give it undead spell casting status.

Looking at all the sourses, It seems that lich was still being used as another term for dead body, even in the stories where they were "Uber undead casters". I think the use of the word lich to *mean* "undead spell caster" was started by gamers themselves as they tried to codify and stat out as many monsters as possible to use with their rulesets.


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## Set (Jul 11, 2007)

Wight is another one that gets used in D&D to reference undead, but just means 'person' or 'man.'

I remember hearing a legend that the Golem story was about some Egyptian sorcerer, who used the word 'Emet,' which meant truth, and when it got out of control, hacked off the 'e,' leaving the word 'Met,' which meant death.  Many years later I heard a Hebrew version, with Shamash and Mash as the words.  Either way, it's a neat story.


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## Gez (Jul 11, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> I think the use of the word lich to *mean* "undead spell caster" was started by gamers themselves as they tried to codify and stat out as many monsters as possible to use with their rulesets.




After having seen in a Ravenloft sourcebook that "ghost", "phantom" and "geist" were all different creatures, I can only agree with you.


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## Deuce Traveler (Jul 12, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Funny you should write this, but I *am* usuing Koschei as a lich in something I am working on.




I used him in a short story.


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## grodog (Jul 12, 2007)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> The phylactery isn't mentioned in the part of the story I was quoting from yesterday (the character's first appearance) but I didn't re-read the entire story, and the character reappears in a couple later stories as well, so it might be in there somewhere (I don't recall it specifically, though). However, note that the phylactery also isn't mentioned anywhere in the original OD&D Supplement I monster description (quoted by *Geoffrey* on p. 1 of this thread) -- it's first mentioned in the AD&D MM1 write-up, by which time Gygax may well have been deliberately trying to incorporate additional elements outside of Fox so as to broaden the monster into a more generic/universal "undead sorcerer" type.




I had originally thought that Lakofka's "Blueprint for a Lich" in TD 26 (June 1979) predated the MM and was the origin of the phylactery, but it doesn't by about 2 years!  Sheesh, so much for memory 

Aside:  while reviewing the lich in the AD&D MM, I read 



> Similarly, hit dice are 8-sided, and the lich can be affected only by magical attack forms or by monsters with magical properties or 6 or more hit dice.




In AD&D, 6 HD monster attacks are capable of affecting creatures requiring +2 weapons to be hit, but the lich listing only mentions magical weapons to hit; the DMG appendix E also only lists magical weapons to hit, so I'm guessing that 4 HD monsters should be able to attack liches successfully, except that all 5 HD creatures flee in terror from seeing a lich.  So, monsters can either hit a lich because they're 6+HD or they're going to run away (5 HD or less); this doesn't leave a lot of leeway, so I may have to give this some more thought....  I'm considering upping the requirement to +2 weapons for my campaigns, but that still doesn't address the fear/ability to hit thresholds....


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 12, 2007)

MythandLore said:
			
		

> I *think* (I can't remeber for sure) Lich (Middle English) comes from Lic (Old English) for a dead body or corpse. (95% Likely  )
> 
> If anyone can find an online Old English or Middle Engish Dictionary you could find out for sure.



My friend actually knew all about the origins of the word Lich and he told me once that it was actually pronounced, "Like."  I'll have to skim through this later and see if he replied, otherweise, I'll have him log on later and do a reply.


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