# World's Largest City [Merged]



## Olaf the Stout (Aug 17, 2006)

I heard rumours that World's Largest City, the follow up to World's Largest Dungeon, was supposedly going to be released at GenCon this year.  Since I haven't heard a word about it I assume that it wasn't.  Does anyone know what is happening with this book?

Olaf the Stout


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## Ghostwind (Aug 17, 2006)

I asked John Zinser, head of AEG, about WLC and its release. He said they were looking at probably the beginning of next year because a large chunk that was turned in by one freelancer was "total crap" and had to be completely redone. He said he wanted to make sure it was as good or better than World's Largest Dungeon so they were going to take whatever time they needed to make it right. If I had to guess, expect it to be held and solicited at GTS in March with a release either that month or April. But that is a pure guess.


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## Olaf the Stout (Aug 17, 2006)

Good to see that they are continuing ahead with the project still.  I thought that it may have become vapourware with all the reports that I have heard about AEG getting out of D20.

Olaf the Stout


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 17, 2006)

It's probably better that it waits a bit, as it'd be going up against four other new or recently released big cities at this time otherwise.


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## Olaf the Stout (Aug 17, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> It's probably better that it waits a bit, as it'd be going up against four other new or recently released big cities at this time otherwise.




Which would they be exactly Wizzie?  Ptolus is obviously one but what about the other 3?  RARE?

Olaf the Stout


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## TheAuldGrump (Aug 17, 2006)

Five Fingers: Port of Deceit (Privateer Press for their Iron Kingdoms Setting) would likely be one. It is next on my 'Must Buy' list.

City State of the Invincible Overlord would be another, at a guess.

The Auld Grump


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## trancejeremy (Aug 17, 2006)

Hmmm, CSIO came out a couple years ago.  But Bard's Gate is fairly recent.


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## DaveMage (Aug 17, 2006)

Since AEG just released the Accordlands books, it may be a good idea to wait a bit on another premium-like product anyway.


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## Hussar (Aug 17, 2006)

I'm pretty sure that this is going to be vapourware.  After all, online catalogues show it as coming right about now.  But, it's not even written yet?  Yeah, I think this is one of those things that will remain a really interesting idea.


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## DaveMage (Aug 17, 2006)

Hussar said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that this is going to be vapourware.  After all, online catalogues show it as coming right about now.  But, it's not even written yet?  Yeah, I think this is one of those things that will remain a really interesting idea.




Why, Hussar, don't you realize that positive thinking always wins?

Tsk tsk - you're being a Negative Nelly.


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## Ghostwind (Aug 17, 2006)

No, it was written. But AEG decided that text that was turned in was unacceptable and sent it back for a rewrite. If John says they it will publish it,youcan bet it will get published. But they also want to make sure it is done right given the success of WLD.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 17, 2006)

Heck, maybe if Warlords and WLC do well they'll come out with some more d20 materials.


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## Psychic Warrior (Aug 17, 2006)

So is WLC going to be d20 compatible?  I can't imagine what other system they might use.


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## Hand of Evil (Aug 17, 2006)

Vaporware - it would have to one hell of a product to compete with Ptlus (sp)


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## Psion (Aug 17, 2006)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> I asked John Zinser, head of AEG, about WLC and its release. He said they were looking at probably the beginning of next year because a large chunk that was turned in by one freelancer was "total crap" and had to be completely redone.




I'd love to know who wrote that part.

But I'm funny that way.


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## Mark Plemmons (Aug 17, 2006)

I'm holding out for World's Largest World.


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## Arnwyn (Aug 17, 2006)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> If John says they it will publish it,youcan bet it will get published. But they also want to make sure it is done right given the success of WLD.



This warms my heart.

(And I, too, would love to know who the incompetent freelancer is... yeah, I'm morbid.)


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 17, 2006)

I was thinking of Bard's Gate, Ptolus, Five Fingers and the English translation of Cadwallon, which some people apparently intend to use as a sourcebook, and not just a game on its own.

WLC is better off not competing with all of those head-to-head (and vice-versa).


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## amethal (Aug 17, 2006)

Mark Plemmons said:
			
		

> I'm holding out for World's Largest World.



I'd buy that in a second, except that I think it's the new brand name for 4th edition Forgotten Realms.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 17, 2006)

World's Largest Multiverse is going to rock on toast.


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## Hierax (Aug 17, 2006)

Also, isn't someone working on a new version of Lankhmar?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 17, 2006)

Hierax said:
			
		

> Also, isn't someone working on a new version of Lankhmar?



Yep, it's a new Runequest setting.


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## GQuail (Aug 17, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> World's Largest Multiverse is going to rock on toast.




....

I would buy this in a second.


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## Olaf the Stout (Aug 18, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I was thinking of Bard's Gate, Ptolus, Five Fingers and the English translation of Cadwallon, which some people apparently intend to use as a sourcebook, and not just a game on its own.
> 
> WLC is better off not competing with all of those head-to-head (and vice-versa).




I'm not 100% sure, but I was under the impression that World's Largest City was going to be quite a large book.  Probably not as big as WLD (840 pages?) but quite sizeable nonetheless.

I know that Ptolus is over 600 pages (plus extras) and Bard's Gate is 224 pages but I don't know about the other 2.  How many pages are they?  If they are only the same size as Bard's Gate (or smaller) I don't know if they would be targeting the same market as WLC.

Olaf the Stout


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 18, 2006)

I dunno, I think most people thinking about buying any of those products, including WLC, want a big pregenerated city. While I'm certain there are people who have multiple giant city products, I bet they're in a serious minority. A few very different cities is one thing, but I think most of the current releases have a fair amount of overlap.


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## trancejeremy (Aug 18, 2006)

I just hope they spend some time proofreading WLC. WLD was bad. Worse than Mongoose bad, even. I mean, how do you mislabel an entire chapter of a book? And maybe the WLC will do the OGL correctly (hah!)


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## Dog Moon (Aug 18, 2006)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Vaporware - it would have to one hell of a product to compete with Ptlus (sp)




Ptolus.  And after buying Ptolus, I'm not sure if I'd buy WLC.  Of course, I still want the Iron Kingdoms new City book that apprently recently came out.  With those two books, do I NEED the World's Largest City?  Just cause it's the largest ain't gonna mean it's the best.


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## DaveMage (Aug 18, 2006)

Dog Moon said:
			
		

> Ptolus.  And after buying Ptolus, I'm not sure if I'd buy WLC.  Of course, I still want the Iron Kingdoms new City book that apprently recently came out.  With those two books, do I NEED the World's Largest City?  Just cause it's the largest ain't gonna mean it's the best.




Ptolus has (IMO) just set the bar too high for any published city product to match.  If you have Ptolus, you certainly do not need the WLC.  The question will be, what unique properties does the WLC bring to the table?  

Ptolus does not attempt to define every NPC within, as Monte (IIRC) does not see that as relevant to its usefulness as a game product.  If (for example) the WLC does end up detailing everyone in the city, that would be unique (though its value is certainly going to be questioned).


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 18, 2006)

I am a sucker for these types of things, but Ptolus has set the bar really high and I already have information overload between that, CSIO, Bard's gate, Freeport, Bluffside and all the other city books I have.

Maybe I could used it for Viridistan in the Wilderlands.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 18, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Ptolus has (IMO) just set the bar too high for any published city product to match.  If you have Ptolus, you certainly do not need the WLC.  The question will be, what unique properties does the WLC bring to the table?
> 
> Ptolus does not attempt to define every NPC within, as Monte (IIRC) does not see that as relevant to its usefulness as a game product.  If (for example) the WLC does end up detailing everyone in the city, that would be unique (though its value is certainly going to be questioned).




With the Everyone Else .pdf I bought a while back, I have stats for mundane NPCs.  Not sure I need more than that though.  Although I am interested in what sort of uniqueness the WLC might have.  So far, World's Largest City doesn't help describe any of the details we might want.


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## Hussar (Aug 18, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I just hope they spend some time proofreading WLC. WLD was bad. Worse than Mongoose bad, even. I mean, how do you mislabel an entire chapter of a book? And maybe the WLC will do the OGL correctly (hah!)




Which chapter is mislabeled?  Didn't notice that.

But, yeah, the proofing of some of the regions is truly bad.  Not all the regions, but some.  Region B, gets my vote for being very poorly done.  Others have been fine.


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## jim pinto (Aug 19, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I just hope they spend some time proofreading WLC. WLD was bad. Worse than Mongoose bad, even. I mean, how do you mislabel an entire chapter of a book? And maybe the WLC will do the OGL correctly (hah!)




wow

those are fighting words

i'm not even sure what you're talking about

anyway

i spoke with Zinser about the WLC today....

nothing new to report


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## jim pinto (Aug 19, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Ptolus has (IMO) just set the bar too high for any published city product to match.  If you have Ptolus, you certainly do not need the WLC.  The question will be, what unique properties does the WLC bring to the table?
> 
> Ptolus does not attempt to define every NPC within, as Monte (IIRC) does not see that as relevant to its usefulness as a game product.  If (for example) the WLC does end up detailing everyone in the city, that would be unique (though its value is certainly going to be questioned).




i can honestly say that didn't get done



and since i was only involved in the concepting of the project, i have no idea what doug sun actually did with the book

but doug's a good writer, solid... 

the book won't be as long as the WLD, i don't think, but i don't have the final numbers on that, either


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## DaveMage (Aug 19, 2006)

I'll be interested to see what it brings to the table (so to speak).

How will it compare to other large city sourcebooks, such as Bard's Gate, Ptolus, Bluffside, Waterdeep, City State of the Invincible Overlord, etc.?

Will it be more of the same, or will there be something to it that's never been done?

Will it be like the WLD where you can take out a section and drop it into any other city?

One of the great things about the time leading up to the release of the WLD was the way you provided previews which sparked interest.  I hope we get to see something similar from the WLC (either here or on the alderac website) so that the "coolness" factor of the product can be on display.


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## DM_Jeff (Aug 21, 2006)

>>>"I just hope they spend some time proofreading WLC. WLD was bad. Worse than Mongoose bad, even."

Is that even remotely possible? I'm not sure I could agree with this assessment.   

-Dm Jeff


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## Psychic Warrior (Aug 21, 2006)

jim pinto said:
			
		

> wow
> 
> those are fighting words
> 
> ...




I think he is talking about the chapter on the Chasm.  While it is called the Chasm and that the chapter title says Light and Darkness.  I can't remember the exact page#.

BTW I only just got WLD and I absolutely loved it.  A wonderful book that I will min e for all it's worth and may, one day, run the whole thing as a MEGA campaign.  Thanks for all the hard work that went into this mr. pinto!


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## Qwillion (Aug 21, 2006)

No, he is talking about Tomb of the Unliving/Tomb of the Living. 4192046916

 I personally did not find the editing gaffs to be any greater than any other book (per page).  The only other major gaffs I remember is how you calculate a horde's special ability DC and three missing rooms in region N.  That is 4 mistakes that have affected my 15th level party out of 3800 possible rooms (I am estimating here)

I don't have Ptolus, I as always will await reviews of products.


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## Crothian (Nov 19, 2006)

So, I hear it was released at Gen Con SoCal.


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## Treebore (Nov 19, 2006)

Yep, that is what is being said on RPG.net.


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## Dog Moon (Nov 19, 2006)

Is that rumor or fact?


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## Crothian (Nov 19, 2006)

That's what I want to know from someone who was there!!


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## Treebore (Nov 19, 2006)

Well, the person on RPG says they know it was sold there. Sold out, in fact. They just want to know what those who bought it think of it.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 19, 2006)

Dog Moon said:
			
		

> Is that rumor or fact?




Well, until a secondary source confirms, it's presumed rumor -- but the OP on RPGnet swears that he _saw_ the book and that it sold out quickly. I'd say there is a good chance that it's fact.


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## Jim Hague (Nov 19, 2006)

Given that the line developer for the 'World's Largest' line is out of AEG's employ, and that AEG is getting out of RPGs after their finanical difficulties, _and_ that there's neither promotion nor an actual product that ever developed from the advertisement, I think the poster at RPG.net is probably mistakling WLC for Ptolus or City State of the Invincible Overlord.  There ain't a World's Largest City - nobody was ever commissioned to write it, no art, nothing.


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## DM_Jeff (Nov 19, 2006)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> There ain't a World's Largest City - nobody was ever commissioned to write it, no art, nothing.




Totally wrong. Completely. Just because the one line developer is gone doesn't mean there wasn't someone else to step in. There was (a pity, but that's another topic).

I know it was commissioned because my wife and I were hired to do a little writing for it. And we did. And we were paid for it back in July of this year. When I made a comment to John Zinzer at GenCon about what a stand-up company AEG was for paying its freelancers, he said it was that time because the book was seeing print. Yes, one section stunk (not my section, BTW    ) but it's being developed and released. When, I have no idea.

-DM Jeff


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## Jim Hague (Nov 19, 2006)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> Totally wrong. Completely. Just because the one line developer is gone doesn't mean there wasn't someone else to step in. There was (a pity, but that's another topic).
> 
> I know it was commissioned because my wife and I were hired to do a little writing for it. And we did. And we were paid for it back in July of this year. When I made a comment to John Zinzer at GenCon about what a stand-up company AEG was for paying its freelancers, he said it was that time because the book was seeing print. Yes, one section stunk (not my section, BTW    ) but it's being developed and released. When, I have no idea.
> 
> -DM Jeff




Re-eally...I find it pretty unusual that Zinser has been doing zero promotion on this.  Nothing in the Alderac site, nothing on GamingReport or the other news sites.


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## DM_Jeff (Nov 19, 2006)

They're an odd bunch, Jim. AEG did promote Warlords of the Accordlands to death back when it was supposed to come out, but when it actually released a couple of months ago, _nothing _ but a couple of little blurbs on their website, no big fanfare or announcement or anything, some folks just noticed it was finally for sale at a local game store! It IS odd, I agree.

-DM Jeff


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## Jim Hague (Nov 19, 2006)

Thinking back on it, I guess I expected a bit more fanfare for the follow-up to WLD.  Zinser's usually much more on the ball when it comes to promoting his wares.  Regardless, if it's out, I wish folks that worked on it and AEG the best.


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## Crothian (Nov 19, 2006)

I thinki there was a bit of promotion for it before Gen Con, but it didn't make that obviously.


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## ghul (Nov 19, 2006)

*Yggsburgh*

Fellows,

Keep in mind that Gary Gygax's Free Town of Yggsburgh modules will take the core volume, _Castle Zagyg Vol. I, Yggsburgh_, and flesh it out to completion.  There will in total be 19 town modules and 5 suburbs modules, each slated to be about 64-pages.  That's an estimate of over 1500 pages of city development, with loads of maps, NPCs, locations, and adventure hooks.  These will be released by Troll Lord Games for the _Castles & Crusades_ system, which is quite compatible with all versions of D&D.  It is a huge and ambitious project, written by about a dozen freelancers all working under the guidance of the Father of the Game.

Just sayin'
--Ghul


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## Crothian (Nov 20, 2006)

Please don't derail the thread, I want to hear about the World's Largest City!!


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## twofalls (Nov 20, 2006)

*Wlc*

I actually made a submission to this book, I'd rather like to see it done. 

With regards to those who ask if they "need" this product in light of the others that are out there, I'd question whether you "need" any books beyond the Players Handbook. It's more a matter of what will enhance your game or just enterain you as you read it, isn't it? Any material that expands your imagination is useful in a game where imagination is the vehicle on the road.

Jim Pinto, get off your lazy butt and get online so I can talk to you, don't you make me call you man!

James


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 20, 2006)

Olaf the Stout said:
			
		

> Good to see that they are continuing ahead with the project still.  I thought that it may have become vapourware with all the reports that I have heard about AEG getting out of D20.




Given the quality of  *Warlords of the Accordlands* I hope they release it.


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## amethal (Nov 20, 2006)

Gaming Report is talking about a June release.

http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=20862


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## Dog Moon (Nov 20, 2006)

amethal said:
			
		

> Gaming Report is talking about a June release.
> 
> http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=20862




That article was posted on 2006-04-13 though.  I think that would mean they thought it was supposed to come out this PAST June... not sure if that's correct or not.


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## DM_Jeff (Nov 20, 2006)

twofalls said:
			
		

> Jim Pinto, get off your lazy butt and get online so I can talk to you, don't you make me call you man!




And with those mystical words, the "summon jim pinto I" spell is complete. It just takes 1d4 days for it to now take effect.

My wife and I took jim out for breakfast at GenCon. He knew the WLC submissions were in, and that a new line developer was working on it. Suffice to say that they weren't "doing things the way he would have done them" is the impression we got. But the work was turned in (except for that junk part) and they were hammering it into shape.

-DM Jeff


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## amethal (Nov 20, 2006)

Dog Moon said:
			
		

> That article was posted on 2006-04-13 though.  I think that would mean they thought it was supposed to come out this PAST June... not sure if that's correct or not.



Oops, I went by the date in the top right hand corner, which is of course today.

Just call me a moron and get back to your regular discussion


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## Jim Hague (Nov 20, 2006)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> And with those mystical words, the "summon jim pinto I" spell is complete. It just takes 1d4 days for it to now take effect.
> 
> My wife and I took jim out for breakfast at GenCon. He knew the WLC submissions were in, and that a new line developer was working on it. Suffice to say that they weren't "doing things the way he would have done them" is the impression we got. But the work was turned in (except for that junk part) and they were hammering it into shape.
> 
> -DM Jeff




Who's the new line developer?  If you can't say due to an NDA, I totally understand.  Curious, me, since a great many WLD contributors were promised slots for writing WLC, which obviously wasn't followed through on for whatever reason.

Apparently there were some small, debatable number of copies (people that were there said everything from 5-50) available at the AEG booth, as an update.


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## FCWesel (Nov 20, 2006)

Mark Plemmons said:
			
		

> I'm holding out for World's Largest World.




I'm hoping for World's Largest Tavern.


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## catsclaw227 (Nov 20, 2006)

World's Largest Brothel.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 20, 2006)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Who's the new line developer?  If you can't say due to an NDA, I totally understand.  Curious, me, since a great many WLD contributors were promised slots for writing WLC, which obviously wasn't followed through on for whatever reason.
> 
> Apparently there were some small, debatable number of copies (people that were there said everything from 5-50) available at the AEG booth, as an update.





Over on RPGNet "DougSun" (an AEG affiliate and the apparent line developer for WLC) stated that five copies of the book were available at the con and had sold out by the time he arrived.


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## Jim Hague (Nov 20, 2006)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> Over on RPGNet "DougSun" (an AEG affiliate and the apparent line developer for WLC) stated that five copies of the book were available at the con and had sold out by the time he arrived.




Oho.  Ok, that jibes with the stuff I heard after asking around some.  Thanks for posting the update, since I can't access RPG.Net these days.  Interesting.  I'm curious as to how well WLC stacks up against Ptolus, a book with similar price point and intent.


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## Olaf the Stout (Nov 20, 2006)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> Over on RPGNet "DougSun" (an AEG affiliate and the apparent line developer for WLC) stated that five copies of the book were available at the con and had sold out by the time he arrived.




They only had 5 copies at the con?  How big was their print run? 20?    

Olaf the Stout


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## catsclaw227 (Nov 20, 2006)

So..... OK.

Does this mean it is out? Is it available?


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## Patrick O'Duffy (Nov 20, 2006)

Olaf the Stout said:
			
		

> They only had 5 copies at the con?  How big was their print run? 20?




It's not unusual for a publisher to order a small amount of advance copies ahead of the main print run, which they can use for marketing or promotional purposes until the bulk stock arrives. We do it all the time in my day job.

(We also get a lot more than 5 advances, but we're a lot bigger than AEG.)


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## DaveMage (Nov 21, 2006)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Oho.  Ok, that jibes with the stuff I heard after asking around some.  Thanks for posting the update, since I can't access RPG.Net these days.  Interesting.  I'm curious as to how well WLC stacks up against Ptolus, a book with similar price point and intent.




I don't think they should really be compared unless the WLC not only proports to be a city, but a complete campaign.  

Ptolus is (currently) a unique beast.  

The WLC should probably be compared to other city sourcebooks instead.  Ptolus is a complete, very in-depth, campaign


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## catsclaw227 (Nov 21, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Ptolus is (currently) a unique beast.




And quite a special one at that.  It would take quite a product to meet it's production qualities, content, and usability.  Ptolus truly is a magnum opus.

That said, one can never have too many cities for their campaign.  I will likely get this one.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 21, 2006)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Oho.  Ok, that jibes with the stuff I heard after asking around some.  Thanks for posting the update, since I can't access RPG.Net these days.  Interesting.  I'm curious as to how well WLC stacks up against Ptolus, a book with similar price point and intent.




Here you go. . . 



			
				DougSun said:
			
		

> As to how it compares with Ptolus.... Well, Ptolus seems to be a much more self-contained product than WLC was ever really meant to be. We deliberately left a lot of ragged edges in WLC to allow the material to be included into someone else's campaign world more seamlessly, especially in terms of including hooks linking the NPCs and locations to elements that could easily exist in a range of theoretical campaign worlds outside the city's walls.




Based on the line developer's response here, I'm looking forward to WLC (even if it breaks my bank). My main issue wth Ptolus was that, without some _serious_ handwaving, it wasn't going to be easy to drop it into any of the settings that I game in. WLC is, apparently, less a self-contained setting with its own built-in cosmology than it is a giant, generic, city sourcebook. And that's _exactly_ what I need. 

[Note: Since it has been mentioned in this thread as a possible WLC contender, CSotIO didn't quite meet my standards for "generic" either -- it has a _lot_ of setting-specific baggage attached to it. It's an excellent product, mind you, simply an odd fit for settings  that aren't the JG Wilderlands.]


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## jdrakeh (Nov 21, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Given the quality of  *Warlords of the Accordlands* I hope they release it.




Yep, WotA is easily the best realized d20 fanatsy setting that I've seen in print -- rather than simply slot in the standard PHB classes, feats, and spells, they tweaked all of those things specifically to reflect the reality of the Acoordlands setting. I've not seen too many other d20 fantasy settings that have done this (GR's Black Company and Thieve's World are contenders, but they're done on a much smaller scale). 

Sadly, I traded my WotA collection after not being able to sell any local players on it for the very reasons that I think it's so fantastic (i.e., it wasn't bog standard D&D, so many people were reluctant to give it a spin). Oddly, my True20 World's Largest Dungeon campaign ended up being an easier sell. Weird


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## Treebore (Nov 21, 2006)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> Here you go. . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




  I put CSIO (original) in the Bandit Kingdoms of Greyhawk, and as one of the border cities along the western edge of the Horde Lands. I thought it was rather easy to do. Guess this falls under the "different things for different folks" category.


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## Treebore (Nov 21, 2006)

Over on RPG.net they posted that it was 5 advance copies and that they were told the book would be for sale in a month or two. So I would guess they are hoping to hit the Christmas market, but aren't sure if they will make it in time.

Probably the slow boat from China problems so many publishers have been having.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 21, 2006)

Treebore said:
			
		

> I put CSIO (original) in the Bandit Kingdoms of Greyhawk, and as one of the border cities along the western edge of the Horde Lands. I thought it was rather easy to do. Guess this falls under the "different things for different folks" category.




I'll quickly indulge your thread hi-jack to explain myself. . .  

CSotIO _is_ easy to adapt, but this isn't the same thing as being _generic_ -- you need to ignore quite a bit of stuff (e.g., the real Earth pantheons, the highly advanced magical tech of the Overlord, etc) in order to make it a good, sensible, fit for any setting that doesn't include these things by default (which, IME, is most settings). 

A truly _generic_ city supplement won't include such setting-specific detail to begin with -- it will leave gods, specific technologies, and most other such setting-specific things largely undefined in the itnerest of not confining its scope to one specific setting. No edition of the City State really did this, although the original comes closest. 

[Edit: I appropriately had the 3.5 edition in mind when I posted, as this thread is discussing 3x city supplements for D&D.]


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## zapogee (Nov 22, 2006)

Piazo is selling "The Worlds Largest City"
http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/a/alderac/featuredBrands/d20System/v5748btpy7qm6


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## The_Old_one (Nov 22, 2006)

I can't see a page count on the Paizo listing, which seems odd to me. Anyone know how big this sucker is?


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## DM_Jeff (Nov 22, 2006)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Who's the new line developer?  If you can't say due to an NDA, I totally understand.  Curious, me, since a great many WLD contributors were promised slots for writing WLC, which obviously wasn't followed through on for whatever reason.




I forget his name, it's a regular who is still a staff member at AEG, IIRC. Unfortunately I don't know who the other writers were. In fact my wife and I can't even remember what we wrote (and we did work on WLD).

-DM Jeff


----------



## jim pinto (Nov 22, 2006)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> And with those mystical words, the "summon jim pinto I" spell is complete. It just takes 1d4 days for it to now take effect.
> 
> -DM Jeff




did someone roll a 3?

jesus... what have i become... making jokes like that

sigh

anyway

the book WAS released at gencon socal.

jim hague is very wrong.

i do not have a copy yet to review, because they only had about 10 or so early releases from the printer. but it should hit stores before christmas, if all goes well.

the cover looks good. although it printed a little light, but o'connor did do all the work again. the maps are fair. but i don't have anything else to report.

doug sun was the developer for this product and i respect his work. and i was in on the ground floor, so i can say that our game plan was to create something more easily intergrateable than the WLD was.

it's just over 600 pages, btw

for anyone who is keeping track.

how is everyone?


----------



## jim pinto (Nov 22, 2006)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> I forget his name, it's a regular who is still a staff member at AEG, IIRC. Unfortunately I don't know who the other writers were. In fact my wife and I can't even remember what we wrote (and we did work on WLD).
> 
> -DM Jeff




rob vaux also worked on the project.

he was in house until about a year ago. doug sun is a gun for hire.


----------



## jim pinto (Nov 22, 2006)

FCWesel said:
			
		

> I'm hoping for World's Largest Tavern.




now there's a book i would love to work on

complete with a bard dj who you can throw bottles at and a gnome you can dunk in a giant tankard


----------



## catsclaw227 (Nov 22, 2006)

jim pinto said:
			
		

> i do not have a copy yet to review, because they only had about 10 or so early releases from the printer. but it should hit stores before christmas, if all goes well.
> 
> the cover looks good. although it printed a little light, but o'connor did do all the work again. the maps are fair. but i don't have anything else to report.
> 
> ...




This is news I can digest.  I am pretty sure this will be on my list of purchases. When you say that the maps are "fair", are you looking through the lenses of someone with high expectations or are they really just "fair" compared to other products?


----------



## jim pinto (Nov 22, 2006)

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> This is news I can digest.  I am pretty sure this will be on my list of purchases. When you say that the maps are "fair", are you looking through the lenses of someone with high expectations or are they really just "fair" compared to other products?




fair because i only saw a tiny corner of one and since i did NOT art direct this project, i have no idea how good or bad they may have turned out

i am extremely judgemental about such things, so take it with a grain of salt

just know that it turned out better than i had seen previously and that i'm pretty excited about getting my free copy


----------



## Jim Hague (Nov 22, 2006)

jim pinto said:
			
		

> did someone roll a 3?
> 
> jesus... what have i become... making jokes like that
> 
> ...




That's a bit of a step down from WLD, IIRC; I'd need to look at my copy on the shelf to be sure.  I'm interested in seeing how this stacks up against more focused products like Ptolus and CSotIO.   Given the flak that WLD's taken since it's release, I'm keen on finding out more on WLC. 

As for being wrong, I do believe I already admitted that, jim.  Then again, I was going off info from certain folks at AEG who I won't name regarding the status of WLC.  Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, and it likely won't be the last.  I'm still glad the product made it out.


----------



## DM_Jeff (Nov 23, 2006)

jim pinto said:
			
		

> did someone roll a 3? how is everyone?




We're fine. How are you? Long time no type. Still, I see I don't have to change the duration of the spell...  

I too am looking forward to seeing this. Too many city books? Bah. That's like saying they're too many feats or something.

-DM Jeff


----------



## jim pinto (Nov 23, 2006)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> That's a bit of a step down from WLD, IIRC; I'd need to look at my copy on the shelf to be sure.  I'm interested in seeing how this stacks up against more focused products like Ptolus and CSotIO.   Given the flak that WLD's taken since it's release, I'm keen on finding out more on WLC.
> 
> As for being wrong, I do believe I already admitted that, jim.  Then again, I was going off info from certain folks at AEG who I won't name regarding the status of WLC.  Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, and it likely won't be the last.  I'm still glad the product made it out.




for instance, you're wrong about the FLAK the WLD has received... since it's the two largest threads ever to hit this website, i'd say people like it a lot



nonetheless, many posts on this thread have made presumptions about the product and within a month, people can judge for themselves if the book is for them

fact: WLD was 840 pages


----------



## Epiphanis (Dec 3, 2006)

*World's Largest City*

Its here -- with absolutely no fanfare whatsoever, AEG has released the World's Largest City, a two-inch thick hardcover with a bundled wall map and a $100 sticker price.  And it looks like nobody noticed.

I heard about this project last year, but AEG has been incredibly closed-mouthed about it.  After all the advertising and publicity they put out for World's Largest Dungeon, their aching silence about this is downright ominous.

When Malhavoc put out the humongous Ptolus book, and AEG responded with naught but the sound of crickets chirping, I had assumed the WLC project had been dropped -- who releases a $100 hardcover RPG supplement and DOESN'T pimp the hell out of it, marketing-wise? 

But there it was on Thursday, sitting on the shelf of my FLGS.

Has anybody picked this puppy up?  My knee-jerk reaction is that AEG's silence suggests its a red-headed stepchild they are embarassed about.  But that doesn't really make much sense either-- why shell out for such an expensive print run if the product doesn't meet spec?  After all, its not like AEG has been hyping it like mad and couldn't back out.  Or is there something I'm missing here?


----------



## Olaf the Stout (Dec 4, 2006)

Last I heard was that there were 5 pre-release copies sold at a Convention in the US recently.  I'm not sure which one though.  There was a thread on the boards about it a few weeks ago.

AEG are very strange with their promotion.  The promoted the heck out of Warlords of the Accordlands and then proceeded to not release it, instead redoing it for 3.5e.  When they did eventually release it there was barely a murmur from the AEG camp about it.

Olaf the Stout


----------



## Keith Robinson (Dec 4, 2006)

I've just pre-ordered it from Amazon.

Just wait and see what happens now


----------



## Crothian (Dec 4, 2006)

Epiphanis said:
			
		

> And it looks like nobody noticed.




 We noticed  but no one has had any info yet


----------



## DaveMage (Dec 4, 2006)

Red Moon Games said:
			
		

> I've just pre-ordered it from Amazon.
> 
> Just wait and see what happens now




If it's like the World's Largest Dungeon, Amazon should ship it in about 2 months.


----------



## Olaf the Stout (Dec 5, 2006)

It's now available for purchase at Noble Knight Games.  Looks like WLC has been released into the wider distribution channels now.

The funny thing is that the AEG website doesn't have any mention of WLC or WLD.  Their online store doesn't have either product either.  Why would you publish a product like those 2 and not even mention them on your website?    

Olaf the Stout


----------



## jim pinto (Dec 5, 2006)

there are now two threads going about this that i know of

i have no contention with answering questions about this product, but which thread should we be posting to?


----------



## Ghost2020 (Dec 5, 2006)

The AEG website does mention the WLD, it's under the d20 tab.

Otherwise that site is updated very rarely. As a tool to reach out to the fans, it's very under utilized.

I do recall them having some staffing issues though.


----------



## Hussar (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm sorry, but, could this possibly be something like the Anti-Ptolus?

C'mon, they pimped Ptolus for all it was worth and then some.

This thing comes out on little kitty feet.

Be interesting to see if it actually does well or not.


----------



## Olaf the Stout (Dec 5, 2006)

Hussar said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but, could this possibly be something like the Anti-Ptolus?
> 
> C'mon, they pimped Ptolus for all it was worth and then some.
> 
> ...




Whether it is "Anti-Ptolus" or not, you should at least mention that you have released the product on your website.  There is a little bit of a difference between over the top pimping and letting people know that the product actually exists.

Olaf the Stout


----------



## DaveMage (Dec 5, 2006)

jim pinto said:
			
		

> there are now two threads going about this that i know of
> 
> i have no contention with answering questions about this product, but which thread should we be posting to?




Well there ARE two big WLD threads.  

These WLC threads only have about 3,600 posts to go before they catch up the WLD ones.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Dec 5, 2006)

I think WLC will be the anti-Ptolus based purely on how many people were involved in its creation (a lot) versus Ptolus (one primary author). If you don't like Monte's vision, you're kind of out of luck on Ptolus, whereas with the WLC, there's not likely to be the same consistent tone and interconnection between areas, for better or worse.

WLC is probably going to have a lot of good modular bits that can be ripped out and put into Ptolus, in case there's anyone who feels Ptolus offered too little.


----------



## johnnype (Dec 5, 2006)

I'll probably end up buying it although I'm in no rush given the rather extensive reading pile I have to go through first. 

As far as the lack of hype, I've noticed the same thing from AEG since the release of SpyCraft 2.0. I don't understand it myself but maybe they believe that word of mouth is enough to sell it. God know's I'm tired of game companies pushing back release dates or having them fly by without a word. AEG is somewhat guilty of this (with WLC no less). Perhaps this is there way of being a bit more honest with their customers. I for one appreciate it but admit that it doesn't make a lot of business sense.


----------



## trancejeremy (Dec 6, 2006)

Well, hasn't AEG really pretty much closed down their RPG division? The stuff they've released has basically been books that were pretty much written  (This and the Accordianlands).  And Spycraft was handed off to Crafty Games, who are now publishing through Mongoose.

Anyway, guess my Amazon.com boycott didn't last very long.  And by the time they ship it, hopefully I'll be able to pay for it.


----------



## Olaf the Stout (Dec 6, 2006)

johnnype said:
			
		

> I'll probably end up buying it although I'm in no rush given the rather extensive reading pile I have to go through first.
> 
> As far as the lack of hype, I've noticed the same thing from AEG since the release of SpyCraft 2.0. I don't understand it myself but maybe they believe that word of mouth is enough to sell it. God know's I'm tired of game companies pushing back release dates or having them fly by without a word. AEG is somewhat guilty of this (with WLC no less). Perhaps this is there way of being a bit more honest with their customers. I for one appreciate it but admit that it doesn't make a lot of business sense.




Even if they did feel that word of mouth would be good enough to sell WLC it still seems extremely weird not to announce that they have released the book on thier own website.  I can't imagine that would be too much trouble.  I find their total silence on the release of what is a pretty big project to be perplexing to say the least.

Olaf the Stout


----------



## jim pinto (Dec 6, 2006)

*New Thread*

There's a new thread, talking about AEG's lack of information on their website in regards to the WLC.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=182049


----------



## jim pinto (Dec 6, 2006)

*Old Thread*

There's an old thread where people asked about the book's release and what we can expect from it.

Etc.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=171808&page=1&pp=40


----------



## DM_Jeff (Dec 6, 2006)

OK, jim, my first question, if you know it, is how is it set up? If I remember the original writeup sent to writers, each assignment was a different neighborhood of a big city with a dock, and each business, house, or whatever needed at least one adventure hook, the more you linked together the better. Do you know if they kept this concept or changed it somehow?

How about stats and open game content? Originally I remember we weren't to actually DO any stat blocks, how was that handled? I know your review copy didn't come in yet, but if you recall if this is the way they went I'd like to know!

-DM Jeff


----------



## jim pinto (Dec 6, 2006)

i have no idea how doug handled the "finishes"

i know what the original plan was, but i have yet to see an open copy

the story set up of the city was very smart, and explained why there were NUMEROUS races in the city, but we didn't got the 'all monster from the SRD route"

let me see if mike won't send me a copy and i'll do my best to break it down

although doug sun should really be here talking about the book himself


----------



## catsclaw227 (Dec 6, 2006)

I wish they would post some kind of preview or something.  At least with Warlords, they put up the website.

I'd love to see some free content to get me motivated to buy it.


----------



## elijah snow (Dec 7, 2006)

*Got It!*

Yes, it exists. I received my copy of WLC from Noble Knight Games (great seller, by the way). On first glance, it looks very cool. If you like WLD, you will probably like this.


----------



## BlueBlackRed (Dec 7, 2006)

Someone scan and post a pic of the covers please.


----------



## Odhanan (Dec 8, 2006)

elijah snow said:
			
		

> Yes, it exists. I received my copy of WLC from Noble Knight Games (great seller, by the way). On first glance, it looks very cool. If you like WLD, you will probably like this.



What kind of tone/theme does it have? 

How does the city feel like?


----------



## DM_Jeff (Dec 8, 2006)

*World's Largest City*

Here ya go.

-DM Jeff


----------



## DM_Jeff (Dec 8, 2006)

WARNING: Travel Advisory from the Wizard Council of Alderac! At this time the World's Largest City has been declared unsafe for standard tourism! Following in the rather large footsteps of the World's Largest Dungeon, this d20 supplement presents a vast cityscape covering16 full-color maps with plenty of adventure hooks to keep your players occupied for a whole campaign! 

Enter a city of diversity, a city of depth, a city of intrigue…a city of danger! 

Leaving the dungeon to take a well-earned rest in the city has never felt like this before…you thought you had it hard dealing with nasty creatures living in the dark? Wait until you encounter their ‘civilized’ counterparts in these busy streets! 

It’s the city your players might never want to leave – or maybe they’ll just be lost forever in its labyrinthine web of alleyways, shops and sewers. 

In The World’s Largest City, you’ll find: 

Ø Hundreds of NPCs inhabiting detailed locations across a dozen massive districts! 

Ø Encounters, conflicts and adventure hooks that can lead to thousands of hours of game play! 

Ø Over 700 pages of fantasy setting and source material! 

Ø 16 poster-sized maps – 80” x 64” when fully assembled! 

-DM Jeff

P.S. Can a moderator combine these threads or something?   EDIT: THANK YOU


----------



## Eridanis (Dec 8, 2006)

Merged the two threads in General. I hope I can check this out soon!


----------



## Crothian (Dec 8, 2006)

DM Jeff, I expect a review by Friday.


----------



## DM_Jeff (Dec 8, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> DM Jeff, I expect a review by Friday.




I'll have my copy before _next _ Friday, I'm sure. It's en route as we speak...

 

-DM Jeff


----------



## catsclaw227 (Dec 8, 2006)

I just got it from buy.com.  I wonder when I will actually receive it though?


----------



## jim pinto (Dec 8, 2006)

mike leader is sending my copy and i should have it before xmas

but no guarantee on a real review...

again... doug sun should be here any minute now

yep

any minute

he'll be posting on here

with real notes

yep


----------



## BlueBlackRed (Dec 8, 2006)

jim pinto said:
			
		

> mike leader is sending my copy and i should have it before xmas
> 
> but no guarantee on a real review...
> 
> ...



I think you should forward your copy on to me.
It's not like I didn't earn it


----------



## EricNoah (Dec 9, 2006)

Could someone who has it look at the contributor list -- and check around, oh, I don't know, letter N?  Just curious.


----------



## elijah snow (Dec 9, 2006)

*WLC Details*

After announcing I had the book, I have had zero free time in the last few days, so I apologize for not answering questions. I haven't actually had a chance to read it chapter by chapter, but maybe this info will be helpful.

Table of Contents
Introduction (A good 18 pages)
District A: Dwarves
District B: Humanoids
District C: Entertainment
District D: Bazaar
District E: Nobles
District F: Guards
District G: Travelers
District H: Lamplighters
District I: Government
District J: The Spire
District K: Academy
District L: Artisans
District M: Docks
District N: Warehouses
District O: Naval
District P: Elves
Appendix: NPC Stats
The Maps!

I'll outline what's in the chapter on District A: Dwarven District
1. Overview
2. Locations (35 specific ones)
3. Quests
4. Random Encounters

The chapter is also shot through with sidebars, stories, plot hooks, and excellent art.

I haven't read enough to know the "feel" of the city. However, I am also a big fan of Ptolus and I sense that this book has a completely different tone and feel, but I am just as excited to read it as I was Monte's tome.


----------



## elijah snow (Dec 9, 2006)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Could someone who has it look at the contributor list -- and check around, oh, I don't know, letter N?  Just curious.




I'm afraid I don't see any writers whose last name starts with N. :\


----------



## EricNoah (Dec 9, 2006)

Ok, good to know -- thanks.  

FWIW, my submission was the idea of a children's pickpocket gang, with fairly elaborate tree-house for a hideout.  I think I put a halfling in there as well as a noble's runaway child.


----------



## Odhanan (Dec 9, 2006)

> District J: The Spire



There's a Spire in the WLC? Like Ptolus?

Also, what about the "feel" of the city? I guess it's some patchwork of different districts with different feels to them, but what about the "cement" that binds the areas together? Do you have trolls and goblins walking down the street shopping for vegetables? Is it a more historically-correct kind of setting? A setting of wizardry? Of Learning? Of backstabbing nobles and thieves? Who rules? That kind of thing.


----------



## jim pinto (Dec 9, 2006)

Odhanan said:
			
		

> There's a Spire in the WLC? Like Ptolus?
> 
> Also, what about the "feel" of the city? I guess it's some patchwork of different districts with different feels to them, but what about the "cement" that binds the areas together? Do you have trolls and goblins walking down the street shopping for vegetables? Is it a more historically-correct kind of setting? A setting of wizardry? Of Learning? Of backstabbing nobles and thieves? Who rules? That kind of thing.




the spire is sort of the city "center" where the religion orders congregate

without giving anything away, the spire is the reason the city exists, BUT it is not by any means an anchor to every campaign set in the city

the concept was devised by the entire team a few months before i left, so i can at least say that patrick, doug, rob, and myself had a good reason for putting it there ... if you accept that the WLD "prison" is a good reason for a dungeon to exist of that magnitude


----------



## jekessler (Dec 9, 2006)

Odhanan said:
			
		

> Do you have trolls and goblins walking down the street shopping for vegetables?




I haven't seen the finished product, so things may have changed.

There is, as noted noted earlier, a Humaniods District, but IIRC they don't get to freely wander the city itself, but are rather segregated into their own area beyond the main walls.  Kind of a chaotic remnant of various attacks and seiges over the years, that has grown into something more permanent, and left alone to keep the humanoids preoccupied on matters besides a coordinated attack.  Primary (official) interaction with the city is as a dumping ground for convicts and as recruiting grounds for the Gladitator games.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Dec 10, 2006)

Basic question: What the heck is the city's _name?_

And that breakdown makes me curious about this book. Hopefully a store around here has it so I can flip through it.


----------



## jim pinto (Dec 10, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Basic question: What the heck is the city's _name?_
> 
> And that breakdown makes me curious about this book. Hopefully a store around here has it so I can flip through it.




i don't know if it has a name... i remember us talking about NOT naming it, so DMs could use it for whatever they like

although naming it certianly wouldn't have ruined the book, either

so... my lame post is... i don't know

aren't you glad i chimed in on that?


----------



## rgard (Dec 10, 2006)

Mark Plemmons said:
			
		

> I'm holding out for World's Largest World.




Me too.  It's so big, the gravity is 20x that of Earth.  Everybody plays a sentient pancake.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## raynbow (Dec 12, 2006)

I'm a very lazy GM  So I'm just curious, is there a 'campaign' that goes along with the city?  It sounds like there are quests and adventure hooks around, but is there a way to fit them together?  Or  a story path?  Or even enough of these quests and such to make a continuous campaign?  Anyone know?


----------



## jgbrowning (Dec 17, 2006)

rgard said:
			
		

> Everybody plays a sentient pancake.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich




Flumph.

joe b.


----------



## DM_Jeff (Dec 18, 2006)

Review still pending. Funny story, actually. It came in the mail last week. The kids, home from school, called my wife. She told them to wrap it and label it and hide it on me until Christmas since she had no idea what it was, she just knows I expect packages like this sometimes and they're all gaming related! So right now WLC is somewhere in my own house, pending a full read starting next Monday. I'll chime in again next week.  :\ 

-DM Jeff


----------



## Hawkshere (Dec 18, 2006)

I saw this book in a mall store last night. Didn't have time to really look at it, but it's in the retail pipe now.


----------



## Crothian (Dec 18, 2006)

Is it just a city with a billion adventure hooks or is a bit more connected like a module?


----------



## DM_Jeff (Dec 18, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Is it just a city with a billion adventure hooks or is a bit more connected like a module?




OK, at least from what I remember from the original writer's bible, it's not a module. You were supposed to link many of the locations you wrote about to make many storylines. As in, if you wrote a city section with 100 locations, you could link many of them together to make a big story, with NPCs, items, and plots linked through different locations the PC visited. Some were to be minor, like only 1 or 2 locations, some were self-contained, and some sprawled all over the city. The developers were then going to link a few across the different districts. of course, this was a long time ago, and I had nothing to do with any of that.

IIRC the idea was to give a city for the players to explore and the DM to use as a resource of exciting and interesting locations for the players, using the plots or not.

-DM Jeff


----------



## Shawn Carman (Dec 22, 2006)

Hiya!

I wrote the Docks section, so I thought I'd at least post here so I'd be able to follow the thread regardless of what page it falls on (you guys post a lot around here!).

I'm really excited to see what the other city sections look like.  I plan on using one of the walls in my brother's game room to put all the posters together.  I'm sure his wife won't object.  Nope, not a bit.


----------



## DM_Jeff (Dec 25, 2006)

*First Impressions*

OK. Opened it this morning. Here are first impressions gleaned from an hour's look:

1) My wife and I are not in the credits. We were paid for WLD, not WLC, because she finally remembered at one point there being talk of an expanded appendix to contain alternate and expanded Toolbox-style charts, but that never came to fruition. Instead, a "for really cool help with this product, see AEG's Toolbox" sidebar is provided instead.    This little disclaimer will hopefully prevent the few whiners here from poo-pooing that I should not even comment on how the book exists, nevertheless actually offer my opinions on it.   So the only experience I have with this were preliminary talks with jim pinto (no longer with AEG) over a long dinner at GenCon.

2) The book is very big and heavy, with very strong binding. Page layout is crisp and clear. jim pinto was AEG's art director for AEG, and while no art director is listed, he was still there in spirit, as 90% of the illustrations are taken straight from AEG's entire line of d20 sourcebooks and adventures. (Dungeon, Good, Evil, Undead, Dragons, Gods, Mercenaries, Adventure I and II, etc.) They're still good and used in relevant places. 

3) Organization is OK, but in woeful need of additional support. The 704 page book has NO table of contents and NO index. _Ooofah_. Instead, each of the city sections A through P are listed in order in the book, and the locations within in order, so that location C17 is in section C, the 17th entry. So once you know what you're looking for going back to it is no problem. As to what's at each location in the first place, someone step up and do a PDF please (why are you looking at me like that?).

4) Space consideration were generous towards the storyteller. There are NO statblocks littering the product, that space is left for development, storytelling and support running the section. The appendix, pages 621 to 704 lists full stat blocks for a level 1 through 20 NPC of every PHB Class and DMG NPC Class and where they are are abbreviated in the adventure itself (Ftr 7) means go look up a Fighter level 7 in the appendix.

Neat stuff so far. Any specific questions will now be taken from the floor.

-DM Jeff


----------



## freebfrost (Dec 25, 2006)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> Neat stuff so far. Any specific questions will now be taken from the floor.



Well, the first one on my mind:   is it worth the $100 price tag?


----------



## DaveMage (Dec 25, 2006)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> 4) Space consideration were generous towards the storyteller. There are NO statblocks littering the product, that space is left for development, storytelling and support running the section. The appendix, pages 621 to 704 lists full stat blocks for a level 1 through 20 NPC of every PHB Class and DMG NPC Class and where they are are abbreviated in the adventure itself (Ftr 7) means go look up a Fighter level 7 in the appendix.
> 
> -DM Jeff




Are the stat blocks complete with equipment lists and spells (both known and memorized) for spellcasters?


----------



## catsclaw227 (Dec 25, 2006)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> 4) Space consideration were generous towards the storyteller. There are NO statblocks littering the product, that space is left for development, storytelling and support running the section. The appendix, pages 621 to 704 lists full stat blocks for a level 1 through 20 NPC of every PHB Class and DMG NPC Class and where they are are abbreviated in the adventure itself (Ftr 7) means go look up a Fighter level 7 in the appendix.




This is OK to some extent, but I am sure that there must be key NPCs of all levels that are more unique than the next "cleric 5th".

Are there ANY stat blocks at all?


----------



## howandwhy99 (Dec 25, 2006)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> The appendix, pages 621 to 704 lists full stat blocks for a level 1 through 20 NPC of every PHB Class and DMG NPC Class and where they are are abbreviated in the adventure itself (Ftr 7) means go look up a Fighter level 7 in the appendix.



This has been a thought of mine for a few months now.  A big collection of cool and iconic mixed classes would be nice too.    But, unfortunately, the book costs too much for just that.  

How easy is it to steal things?
Are there a dizzing number of events going on?  Or do they use Wandering Encounters?


----------



## DM_Jeff (Dec 26, 2006)

> Well, the first one on my mind: is it worth the $100 price tag?




I paid $70 for it, so my first impression is that is was worth that, just for the stealability and wealth of material in here not given up to just a bunch of numbers.



> Are the stat blocks complete with equipment lists and spells (both known and memorized) for spellcasters?




Yes, the format is not the new version from DMG II, but they are the previously official versions with spell lists, all equipment, plus the gp value the NPC should have if you wish to reequip him. The NPCs are the same guy, advanced through all 20 levels in each instance.



> This is OK to some extent, but I am sure that there must be key NPCs of all levels that are more unique than the next "cleric 5th". Are there ANY stat blocks at all?




As mentioned the last 80 or so pages are levels 1-20 of all classes and NPC classes. In the actual text itself there are ONLY stat blocks ofr the occasional monster, these are VERY far and few between however. There are NO unique NPCs. If it's a multi-classed or nonhuman NPC, you as DM are expected to "combine two stat blocks and make racial adjustments on the fly". No, I'm not kidding.



> How easy is it to steal things? Are there a dizzing number of events going on? Or do they use Wandering Encounters?




Quite easy. The city doesn't expect a lot of work. It's supposed to be the biggest city in the campaign you're running, and it assumes the basic full d20 rules of the core books as the norm. But unlike Ptolus or Sharn, there are much fewer mostraous races running around (though there are a few). I mean,. if you wanted to have a real lively dock section in whatever city you're running, then replace a few of the places with locations from the dock section in this book and you will have awesome descriptions and a LOT of instant hooks and NPC personality and local goings-on to give the place real flavor instead of just glossing over it. No wandering encounters. Each place may be tied to one or two area shops or just be independent in its own entry.

-DM Jeff


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## DM_Jeff (Dec 26, 2006)

*Maps*

Something else worth mentioning, the maps are really huge, and I mean _big_. Interestingly, they COULD have fit the whole city on one big poster map, like many others do and have massive eye strain or magnifying glasses used to find your way around. No, the maps are big enough that you could actually place your mini on the location you are to show your spot in the city. The alllyways, streets, different sized buildings and details are all blown up quite big, the utility being all 6 players at your table won't make a coconut-like sound when they all lean in and squint to see the encounter location and bonk heads.

Unless you like that sort of thing.  

-DM Jeff


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Dec 28, 2006)

1) Does the city have a name? If so, what is it?

2) What sort of city are we looking at here? Is this one ruled by a Lord Mayor, a military leader, a democratically elected government, what?

3) I see that there are racial districts. How much specific flavor is there in each? What differentiates the dwarven quarter from the rest of the city, beyond the height of the typical resident?

4) What's the geographical info given? Is the WLC on a river, a sea, is it landlocked (presumably not, since there's a docks quarter)?

5) How magical is it? Is there a wizard's guild/college?

6) Are there dungeons and such beneath the city, as with Waterdeep and Ptolus (and Greyhawk, to a lesser extent)?

7) Are there any common antagonists recurring in much of the city? (An infestation of wererats, dopplegangers on the loose, etc.)

8) Are the sewers mapped out?

9) How much detail is there? Is every building identified, or is it just a few per district?

10) What supplemental data is there per district beyond what buildings are there and what NPCs are inside the buildings?

11) Is there information relating to law and order? (Any city meeting with any group of player characters will eventually result in this being an issue.)

12) Are there any setting-specific assumptions? ("The lawful good community of ogres, etc.")


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## DM_Jeff (Dec 28, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 1) Does the city have a name? If so, what is it?




In everything I've read, including the History, no, the city is always referred to as "the City."



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 2) What sort of city are we looking at here? Is this one ruled by a Lord Mayor, a military leader, a democratically elected government, what?




A big one. It's ruled by a committee, one rep from each of the 16 districts. Each delegate is chosen by their district to represent them. High officials are then appointed jointly by the council.



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 3) I see that there are racial districts. How much specific flavor is there in each? What differentiates the dwarven quarter from the rest of the city, beyond the height of the typical resident?




Long ago, a kingdom of dwarves, men, and elves all fought a great battle of the Spire, a point that otherwise being really tall has no value whatsoever except as a religious icon. The war came to a stalemate, so they decided to share and build a city. Dwarves and elves therefore each got a section. Everything from the racial alignment, to the archetecture, and their own little power struggles go on in those two districts. The elves and dwarves aren't confined to these regions, either. The 'humanoids' section (referring anything else not human but with 2 arms, 2 legs, and a head) is a hive of scum and villainy. They got theirs from a successful seige on the early city. Interesting, there is still racial tension between all to this day.



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 4) What's the geographical info given? Is the WLC on a river, a sea, is it landlocked (presumably not, since there's a docks quarter)?




It's about 4.5 miles east-west and 3.5 miles north-south. Ocean shoreline marks the southern border. there's no river but could easily be nearby.



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 5) How magical is it? Is there a wizard's guild/college?




The rules of the PHB, DMG and MM are considered the norm, so it's as magical as core D&D is. There is an Arcane Academy and other more specialized schools of magic. On the other hand I do not come across many NPC arcanists just running shops and sitting in warehouses, however. it looks very customizable.



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 6) Are there dungeons and such beneath the city, as with Waterdeep and Ptolus (and Greyhawk, to a lesser extent)?




It's pretty much up to you. the city does not assume such things from what I've read. i saw some hints that lead you to beleive there could be, but nothing is detailed or spelled out. it's there if you want it.



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 7) Are there any common antagonists recurring in much of the city? (An infestation of wererats, dopplegangers on the loose, etc.)




Yes. Not only does each location have amny hooks (some connected to other locations, some not) each district has a few full 'quests' which are larger, overarching storylines of power plays or major goings-on.



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 8) Are the sewers mapped out?




No.



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 9) How much detail is there? Is every building identified, or is it just a few per district?




Most buildings are left to the DM to populate and use as they see fit. The places that are targeted for detail, however, get the royal treatment. When a location is detailed, they go all out. But plenty is left for customization.



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 10) What supplemental data is there per district beyond what buildings are there and what NPCs are inside the buildings?




An overview, a random encounters chart, and quests. Holidays, government, economy, guilds, and religions are also discussed. 



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 11) Is there information relating to law and order? (Any city meeting with any group of player characters will eventually result in this being an issue.)




The City Guard itself is very detailed, but the actual laws of the city are not. DM's fiat, it looks like.



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> 12) Are there any setting-specific assumptions? ("The lawful good community of ogres, etc.")




NO. If it's core, it's good. But nothing at all to break the book. I could easily set this anywhere without any trouble at all.

I hope I helped! Questions are great. Any more?   

-DM Jeff


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## catsclaw227 (Dec 28, 2006)

This is all good information.

Sounds like it is fairly well detialed, but even easier to plop into a homebrew as a massive city due to the amount of "blank spots".


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## ssampier (Dec 29, 2006)

rgard said:
			
		

> Me too.  It's so big, the gravity is 20x that of Earth.  Everybody plays a sentient pancake.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich




Does the Complete Guide to Oozes come out as a tie-in?


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## jim pinto (Jan 9, 2007)

bump


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## MojoGM (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm interested in hearing more discussion on this.  Even though I have Ptolus, I want to get this as well.  Because, well, you can never have enough fleshed-out cities...


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## DM_Jeff (Jan 13, 2007)

MojoGM said:
			
		

> I'm interested in hearing more discussion on this.  Even though I have Ptolus, I want to get this as well.  Because, well, you can never have enough fleshed-out cities...




Okey-dokey. However, discussion usually happens between multiple folks, and I seem to the the only sod on the planet who actually purchased the thing.   

I've been reading it, and I have to say I am as yet unsure how to use the product. As in, each entry I turn to is very cool, and starts my imagination wandering and the ideas flowing. Support for each entry is good, and I want to use it. Now.

* In my Eberron campaign I want to use some of the entries for Sharn. My PCs are there now and will be in and out their whole career. While the _Sharn _ book is great, it has nowhere the room for detailed entries like this.

* In my Moonsea Forgotten Realms campaign the PCs are in Melvaunt. And as everyone knows the _Mysteries of the Moonsea _ book is a little lax on specific description instead providing mini adventures. I want to use some of the entries for Melvaunt.

This is great, but it worries me about what I'll do when I want to use the WLC as it is. It would fit just fine in Midnight (really), or the Accordlands, or my home campaign world. And I'll more than likely have the same players and don't want to strip it of the best spots before running it!   

But, the more I read, the more I am leaning toward the former, and cherry-picking the locations I need for the multitude of cities I am already running and will run soon. 

Still taking questions!

-DM Jeff


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## Firebird (Jan 13, 2007)

I have it as well but haven't had much chance to wade through it as yet.


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## Wraith Form (Jan 16, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Worse than Mongoose bad, even.



I've heard insults, and then I've heard insults.  That ^ was just _*low*_.

When I can afford this monster, I'll see if I can post a few vague impressions about it.

(...so expect a post in June of 2054.)


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## jim pinto (Jan 16, 2007)

*ouch is right*

granted there's editing errors in the WLD, but it's still a damn good book

as for the WLC

i just got my copy, as well

i've begged mike leader and doug sun to come on here and address people's concerns, but at the very least i can answer something, i guess

at this point, i'm just skimming it... seeing if something catches my eye

but since my reading stack of non-gaming books just crested 30... i won't be reading this thing hard-core for a while


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## Odhanan (Jan 16, 2007)

I'm still unclear as to what makes the WLC feel special as compared to the myriad of cities for fantasy RPGs out there. Beyond the fact of being huge and being written by a host of designers with a host of different areas/feels to it, what makes WLC special ?

What is the WLC about ? What's the story behind the city ? Let me take an example: the World's Largest Dungeon 



Spoiler



> is a huge complex that serves/served as a holding cell for various entities best left forgotten and trapped for aeons. 

What's the core concept that justifies a "World's Largest City" and makes it feel different from similar products ?


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## DM_Jeff (Jan 16, 2007)

Odhanan said:
			
		

> I'm still unclear as to what makes the WLC feel special as compared to the myriad of cities for fantasy RPGs out there. Beyond the fact of being huge and being written by a host of designers with a host of different areas/feels to it, what makes WLC special?




 



			
				Odhanan said:
			
		

> What is the WLC about ? What's the story behind the city ? What's the core concept that justifies a "World's Largest City" and makes it feel different from similar products?




*It's the biggest city in the world, the location of which was fought over (and is still being argued over) by humans, dwarves, elves, & goblinoids for individual important religious significance. A shared city built (or partially conquered) by different races now living in some harmony (but each within their own unique neighborhoods) with old grudges and disparity still rearing their ugly heads. * 

That's the best short summary I can conjure. Hope that makes sense.

-DM Jeff


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## DM_Jeff (May 23, 2007)

Bumpeth


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## jekessler (May 23, 2007)

Update from my earlier post..er, months ago.  I did finally receive my contributor's copy (there were some issues with the address AEP had on file for me ), so I can see what bits of my Entertainment district did make it into the book (most of it, with in-jokes mostly intact), and can feel somewhat better prepared to answer questions relating to it, if there are any at this point.

I've answered a few general questions that arose on the AEG forums (fitting with their publicity surrounding the release, there isn't a separate forum for it, but there has been some small discussion of it in the WLD forums), and even pointed over here to this thread for DM_Jeff's succinct description of the core city idea.


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## w_earle_wheeler (May 23, 2007)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> Bumpeth




OK, here's a bump for you:

My FLGS got the book in with no fanfare. It sat on the shelf right next to Ptolus. Copies of Ptolus came and went while the WLC gathered dust. I talked to a dozen people about it and asked them why they were passing on WLC.

One of them had purchased WLD. The editing errors in the product eroded the "good will" meter for that consumer. Translation: no more $100 AEG books for that person.

Four people were somewhat interested in WLC, but were swayed toward Ptolus instead. The reasons? Better layout, better art (subjective) and no editing errors found while skimming Ptolus in the store.

Seven people thought both products were cool, but would never spend more than $25 on a RPG book.


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## DM_Jeff (May 23, 2007)

w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> My FLGS got the book in with no fanfare.




It never did. it got the exact opposite amount of fanfare Ptolus did!   



			
				w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> Copies of Ptolus came and went while the WLC gathered dust.




There's no comparrison. I'd never think to compare the two. Ptolus is a superior product, I know this to be true. I just know WLC does indeed have good uses. Wanted to help stir up discussion again, is all.



			
				w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> One of them had purchased WLD. The editing errors in the product eroded the "good will" meter for that consumer. Translation: no more $100 AEG books for that person.




That's a shame. Mongoose got at least a handful of products out of me before they lost me. And for WLD and these editing errors, I still love how jim pinto points to the fact that WLD has the largest thread on EN World ever. Apparently they do not damage the fun of the actual product.

-DM Jeff


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## w_earle_wheeler (May 23, 2007)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> And for WLD and these editing errors, I still love how jim pinto points to the fact that WLD has the largest thread on EN World ever. Apparently they do not damage the fun of the actual product.




By that line of thinking, it's worth noting that there is no huge, positive (or gameplay-related) thread for WLC. What that tells me is that while the professional errors may not damage the "fun" of the product, they eroded the consumer loyalty toward a second product.

I would go so far as to say that many people would not have purchased WLD if they had known about it's many errors. However, since they already plunked down $100 for it, they are trying to get their money's worth out it.

I've actually been running a WLD game over the past few months. It doesn't mean that I think it's a great product. It just means that I'm determined to get something out of my investment.


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## DM_Jeff (May 23, 2007)

w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> I've actually been running a WLD game over the past few months.




Hope you have fun with it!

-DM Jeff


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## BlueBlackRed (May 23, 2007)

My FLGS has 1 copy of Ptolus and 2 copies of WLC.
Both have sat on the shelf since since they were released while he sold 7 copies of Rappan Athuk Reloaded and at least 3 of the WLD.

Other than this thread I don't believe I've seen much fanfair for the WLC.


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## jdrakeh (May 23, 2007)

The art is decent, not horrible. The NPCs are generic, but that's intentional. Ditto the lack of world-specific setting info. The NPC stat blocks aren't anymore erroneous than those in most d20 products. The failure to include maps of interior spaces is very unusual and it bugged me a _lot_ (why should I have come up with my own maps of sewers and the like when I just dropped $100 on this massive book?). The editor suggests that you buy AEG's Toolbox to deal with items and other mundane details, as the text of the WLC doesn't (deal with such thing). The lack of an index or subject-specifc table of contents drove me absolutely insane. 

Overall, the book has a lot of cool ideas but its organization is the real deal killer, as the lack of a proper index and table of contents makes locating things in such a massive book during play next to impossible.


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## DaveMage (May 24, 2007)

Well, keep in mind also that the WLD is the type of product that many people had wanted since they started playing - a fully detailed massive dungeon crawl.

As I see it, the problem with WLD is Region A - which, naturally (and unfortunately), is what people started with.  This gives many people a poor impression of what's to come.  However, many of those who have stuck with it found lots of fun beyond that region (and indeed, there are even those who enjoyed Region A - YMMV and all that).  There are a few editing gaffes, but I see them as fairly minor.  (And for those who have a few hours to kill, many of these are addressed in the mondo thread here on EN World.)

The WLC is not something that was as desired.  City adventures seem to be (overall) less popular than dungeon crawls (after all, the game is not called "Cities & Dragons"      ).

Heck, (and I realize this is anecdotal) many DMs and campaigns I've been in completely hand-wave the whole city experience - I know I usually do too.


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