# [OT] Buffy - Spoilers within



## Angelsboi (Mar 13, 2002)

Well all i can say is good job Joss.  Granted the opening made it predictable but he made up for it.

Everything seems to be falling into place.  The real world is deffinately the big key here.  The doctor was right.

"You used to battle fantastic monsters and now you face 3 ordinary students you went to high school with.  No monsters, no gods.  Just three pathetic kids."

And we find out that Buffy was in a institution shortly after we see her in Becoming Part I.

"Last summer when you had a moment of awakening, it was them who pulled who pulled you back."

Well now we know Buffy wasnt in heavan but the Real World.  The ending was phenominal as we dont know what is real and what isnt.  But if we believe that this was to determine who is going to die this season, i think its pointing to Buffy.  For good this time.


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## Wolfspider (Mar 13, 2002)

Wow.  Great episode.


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2002)

But without really anything from previous episodes to support this I feel cheated.  Sure, when she came back from "heaven" they could say that was the real world, but her description of it doesn't really fit.  I think that is was a great episode, but I also would expect Josh to lead up to such a big revelation if the hospital world is the real world.


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## Wolfspider (Mar 13, 2002)

I doubt that this episode will lead anywhere.  I don't think Joss would invalidate the whole show by "Bobby Ewing" it away.

However, I do think it's an interesting idea.  It certainly fits.  I like especially how they were able to tie her death and resurrection into the psychoanalysis.  Cool.


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2002)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *
> And we find out that Buffy was in a institution shortly after we see her in Becoming Part I.
> *




Actually, she was in the institution before coming to Sunnydale.  

I really liked the rationilizing by the doctor of her delusions and it was an interesting commentary of season six.


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## Kamard (Mar 13, 2002)

I thought it was silly and pretentious.  But then I always think that episodes of shows where they pretend/decide that "the whole series was fake and the main character(s) is crazy" are pretty weak.


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## Jamdin (Mar 13, 2002)

I liked this episode but I didn't think the asylum was heaven. I lean more towards an alternate dimension instead.

Is it me or has Xander gained some weight?


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## Zerovoid (Mar 13, 2002)

I was all set up to rip this episode to shreds.  I saw the previews for this episode last week and groaned.  This has been done before, alot.  Regardless, this was the first good episode in a while.  Something felt different in the first few minutes.  Somehow the interactions between the characters seemed alot better this time, and seeing Spike and Xander talk was very interesting.  Much better than Xander just snuggling with Anya all the time.  Buffy's life really has been crappy this year, so I can definatley see her wanting to return to an alternate reality.  In fact, I was almost surprised that she came back to herself by the episode.  I thought Spike was going to have to save the gang this time.  This is definately the best episode since Wrecked.


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## Ycore Rixle (Mar 13, 2002)

I think this episode was written by someone named Diego Gutierrez.  Granted I don't follow the show as closely as many, but I would bet that if they were going to introduce a major worldshift, they'd get someone like Marti Noxon, Jane Espenson, David Fury or Joss himself to write it.

Actually, I don't like how the characters are not acting intelligently this season.  Willow wants to give Buffy the antidote but then leaves the room with just a casual message to Spike to make sure Buffy drinks it?  Seemed contrived and out of character to me.  I loved how the characters were intelligent through the first three seasons, more or less in the fifth, and somewhat in the fourth.

And I love Buffy, but I still think that every superhero movie, TV show, novel, or comic book wherein a hero suffers great pains because of his powers should give a credit line to Stan Lee.  At least until people start acknowledging his huge influence on late 20th century literature.


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2002)

THis show does a lot of things that have been done before, countless times by movies and other shows.  BtVS just tries to do it differently.  That's why I like the show and never pre-judge it.


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## Angelsboi (Mar 13, 2002)

Crothian - 

reread my statement.

In Becoming Part 1, we see her being taught by Merrick when Angel is watching her.  Joyce and Hank were fighting in the house. She was at Hemery High.  NOT in Sunnydale.  Meaning shortly after her fight with the vampire in the Becoming Part 1 flashback, she was instatutinalized.

And now that i think about it, her mom was OVERLY shocked at the end of season 2.  Look at Buffys behavior.  Brning down school Gyms, Snyder always riding her about her being a trouble maker ... 

Everyone knew (Joyce, the principals, maybe even Giles) but she never told her friends ... or even Angel.


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2002)

Okay, I understand what you're saying.  When I first read it it sounded as if you were stating it happened in between episodes of season 2.  

Personally, I don't think the institution world exists anywhere but Buffy's mind.


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## el-remmen (Mar 13, 2002)

I don't think this excellent episode was trying to suggest that everything we have seen for six seasons was "not real" - in fact, just the opposite. . .

In the end the "fantasy world" was the real world - a place where our dead or estranged loved ones are there unconditionally, the things we have the greatest responsibility for no longer exist (being the Slayer, taking care of Dawn) and we are allowed a fresh start away from painful or tragic relationships (Spike, Xander and his break up) and of course, escape from our crappy jobs at the Double Meat Palace.

In the end Buffy was rejecting the fantasy that was keeping her from doing the work she needs to do to improve her life - the idea that somehow everything was going to be just fine on its own.

Anyway, if one _must_ take the thing literally (which one shouldn't) the fact that there were scenes in the "vampire world" independent of Buffy's presence where the venom and the demon and her reaction were discussed verifies that at the very least these were two parallel worlds with Buffy at the crux - but I don't buy that.


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## Angelsboi (Mar 13, 2002)

Oh i agree completely.

Buffy just needed reasurrance =)


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## sotmh (Mar 13, 2002)

AB, I don't think we'll see Buffy end up in the "Real World" at the end of the show.  That's been done way too many times, see "Newhart" and "Dallas" for some examples (IIRC).  Plus, where would that leave the spin-off series'? 

It was a good episode, nonetheless.  Buffy really needed something to snap her out of the funk that she's been in lately.  Kudos to last weeks episode for the unexpected yet logical ending.  I still just want to smack Xander around for leaving Anya like that and he's just starting to understand what he's done, but he still doesn't see the full ramifications of his stupidity (beyond the whole vengeance demon thing, I mean).   Things between Anya and him can never be the same.  It's tragic. 

I will make one prediction regarding the show, though.  I think, at the end of the series or season, Buffy will end up with Jonathon.   It makes so much sense.  Especially after this season, Buffy is in about the same place in her life as the little guy.  Plus, since we know Joss is kind of a geek, it's not a stretch to speculate that he might "get the girl" in the end.

sotmh


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2002)

That's an interesting thought.  So, anyone know what's going to happen next?


This is my opinion on what will happen next.  I don't have any advanced knowledge.  Just wanted to say that just in case someone thought I was posting unmarked spoilers.  I think we'll get an episode of Anya seeking vengeance on Xander.   I think that Tar will get killed by Warren, Willow will snap and use great magics to torture and kill Warren.  Then Willow will become bad (I think Big Bad is not the proper term as there is no Big Bad.  We're to late in the season for that).  She will be hard, if not impossible to stop or reason with.   I give her a couple of free Rage Mage levels


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## coyote6 (Mar 13, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *This is my opinion on what will happen next.  I don't have any advanced knowledge. *




Are you _sure_ you haven't been reading the Spoiler Slayer?


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2002)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Are you sure you haven't been reading the Spoiler Slayer?  *




I don't read spoilers.  Why, am I close? 

The seasons are ussually predictible with the main plots and this is how i see it happening.  Tar has always been a lesser character and is expendible.  Warren is the most evil of the group, and it's only a matter of time before he really tries to kill someone.  I'm betting it's Tara.  Probably fails to kill Buffy and gets Tara instead, like the accident with the Invisible gun.  So, with Tara dead Willow goes Balistic and uses the only thing she has: Magic.  Only reason she hasn't been using Magic is to get Tara back.  Stopping Warren isn't enough, and neither is killing him.  So, I expect Torture.  And that won't sit well with the other Scoobies.  They will of course try to reason with Willow first, but we know that won;t work.  Willow, with all her power may be impossible to stop.  Last time she lost control (when Tara was injured so that supports the Willow Rage after Tara dies) she was the only one to hurt Glory.  This time the angry will be greater and the rage will be worse.  

As for the Anya taking Vengeance on Xander, franly I've been expecting that since they went to the prom together.  And after the Wedding epsiode is there really anyone who thinks this will not happen?

Edit: Dump Mistake


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## Magnus (Mar 13, 2002)

in the midst of all of this "i love this episode" stuff, i gotta say. i was and continue to be disappointed with this season. and this episode was no exception. i've always enjoyed buffy ... well, at least since i started watching about 2 years ago. but this season has felt cheap, and a bit too contrived for my tastes. 

it feels like the writers sit around and brainstorm about what else they can do to %@$# up buffy's life _this_ week. other than severe emotional trauma, there doesn't really seem to be any cohesion to this season. and while i'm at it, what the hell is up with all the sex on the show! this season there's been more sex than on the rest of prime time tv combined! i mean, buffy and riley used to get it on, but we were never shown _this_ much of it! i can't help wondering how much of this is the doing of UPN.

as for this ep, it just seemed like more of the same. if it wasn't for the occasional quirkiness of the characters, and the lil gems of direction and acting, i'd really hate this ep. the speech by buffy's mom that brings her back, is a perfect example. it was *very* transparent, but the way it was executed still managed to tug the heartstrings.

i don't buy all of this about the psych ward is the "real" world. what, the demon's venom caused her to see the truth, when it causes hallucinations in everyone else? no. it's just another one in a string of brutalisations to buffy's psyche. perhaps the one that brings back her strength, but still, just another in the string.

it's disappointing that it seems that this once great show has lost some of the attention of it's creators. Angel on the other hand, has gotten positively BRILLIANT this season. while buffy just seems to be losing cohesion. as the "big bad" of this season, the real world, or adulthood. or growing up, or whatever it's supposed to be, is really disappointing.

all of that said, i still do like the show. perhaps it's mostly just nostalgic at this point, but i'll continue to watch. i just was not really impressed with this ep, as most of you seem to be. *shrug*


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## LostSoul (Mar 13, 2002)

Magnus said:
			
		

> *as the "big bad" of this season, the real world, or adulthood. or growing up, or whatever it's supposed to be, is really disappointing.*




That's weird, I feel the opposite way.  I felt like the show was becoming "bad guy shows up - they worry about it - Buffy beats it up anyways".  Remember that, in the end, Buffy still "beat up" Glory.

This season is saying to Buffy that she can't just solve every problem with physical violence.  Sometimes the problems are deeper.


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## Magnus (Mar 13, 2002)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> *That's weird, I feel the opposite way.  I felt like the show was becoming "bad guy shows up - they worry about it - Buffy beats it up anyways".  Remember that, in the end, Buffy still "beat up" Glory.*




well, of COURSE that's how it works. it's TV. it's movies. it's entertainment. we don't pay $5-10 per ticket to see the hero triumph over yet another dreary day at work, and getting his kids to do their homework. yes a certain amout of realism an authenticity is necessary, but that's not what we pay/tune in to see. ordinary doesn't entertain. this whole season as a sub plot/arc would have been fine. 

even those so-called "reality" shows aren't about reality. c'mon, 12 random people get stranded on an island with nothing to eat ALL the time. they are all carefully contrived and scripted scenarios with carefully casted people who they can count on to react a certain way that'll "entertain."



			
				LostSoul said:
			
		

> *This season is saying to Buffy that she can't just solve every problem with physical violence.  Sometimes the problems are deeper. *




now, i'm not saying that this season's approach is a waste of time, i think that the ideas are great. i was complaining about the approaches to dealing with them. yes, good sci-fi is about the human condition. yes, it's about universal human truths. but it's also about heroes. and stopping the "bad guy" and "geting the girl" (... or guy in this case ) coz sci-fi is still entertainment.

then again, maybe i'm just pissed that Joss is treating my Buffy so badly this season, and _THAT'S_ what i'm really pissed at!


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## Tar Markvar (Mar 13, 2002)

*Hey, Wait a Minute!*



> I think that Tar will get killed by Warren...




I don't even know anyone named Warren!!

--Tar


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## LostSoul (Mar 13, 2002)

Magnus said:
			
		

> *well, of COURSE that's how it works. it's TV. it's movies. it's entertainment. we don't pay $5-10 per ticket to see the hero triumph over yet another dreary day at work, and getting his kids to do their homework. yes a certain amout of realism an authenticity is necessary, but that's not what we pay/tune in to see. ordinary doesn't entertain. this whole season as a sub plot/arc would have been fine. *




I don't know... the last movie I saw twice in the theatres was _American Beauty_.  Not much is solved by violence there.   Not that violence is what bothered me about the show in previous seasons; no, it was the fact that Buffy solved _everything_ by kicking and staking.  (Except maybe Angel and Faith; but after she sent Angel to Hell, things were okay.  Same thing goes for Faith, just substitue a coma for Hell.)

After a few seasons of that, I never ever worried about things going wrong for Buffy.  I didn't watch much of the last season because of that.  "Oh, she's facing a god.  Don't worry, she'll just beat her up in the end."  Which is what happened, although I was totally shocked and delighted that she died. 

Oh well, I guess our tastes are just different.  (A quick read of my .sig might tell you what my tastes are like.  )


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## Umbran (Mar 13, 2002)

Magnus said:
			
		

> *
> yes, good sci-fi is about the human condition. yes, it's about universal human truths. but it's also about heroes. and stopping the "bad guy" and "geting the girl" (... or guy in this case ) coz sci-fi is still entertainment.
> *




*shrug* 

1) One man's "entertainment" is another's boring repetition.  
2) There's more ways to be a hero than to beat stuff up.

I happen to find the way the show has gone this season to be refreshing.  I wouldn't want it to continue like this forever, but we'd already had a number of seasons of the same formula.  The break from the usual is good for the audience, good for the actors, good for the writers.  

Buffy has not lost the attention of it's creators.  By all reports, the show is exactly where the creators want it.  The general plot, theme, and style for this season were decided upon a couple of years ago, actually.  The writers aren't missing the mark - they are enacting the policies set by Joss Wheadon.


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## Ashtal (Mar 13, 2002)

I wouldn't put any faith that Buffy in the institution was in the "Real World" (tho' there's been some speculation on the Net that maybe her spirit was 'visiting' an alternate universe Buffy, universes explicitly discussed in early episodes as being infinitely varied, perhaps one where Institution Buffy could glimpse Real Buffy's world).

I think the ME people are just playing with our heads and that the last sequence is more of symbolic ending, to show that she is ready to accept who she is, and get back to the business of living.

Poor girl.  They've been terribly hard on her this season. 

As for spoilers...yes, SpoilerSlayer.net is an excellent resource, as is the Buffy Cross and Stake (www.angelicslayer.com).  AngelX is da bomb of all things Spoiler.

SPOILER

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Nice to see I was right about Anya, if the spoilers are true.


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## Wolfspider (Mar 13, 2002)

I think the show's just been getting better.  Last season was overall great and in some places sublime, so I didn't believe it could get any better.  But this season has proven me wrong.

Someone mentioned before that Buffy should acknowledge its debt to Stan Lee, and I agree that Buffy does use a lot of the superhero themes (although these are probably much older than Stan Lee, going back to the Odyssey and Iliad).  In any case, like many superheroes, Buffy has come to realize this season that her superpowers are useless against some of the problems in the world, that she can't save everyone.  People who say that the show has diverged away from science fiction/comics by tackling this issue really don't understand the themes of sci fi and comics very well.

In fact, very often it's not the villians that finally wear down the hero, but these mundane elements.  The death of a loved one, the irrational hatred people feel toward you, the attempt to somehow live a normal life when you're a seven-foot tall orange brickman or a Vampire Slayer.

Perhaps what frustrates viewers about this season is the fact that Buffy can't jus t go out and slay the big bad of this season, 'cause the big bad is Life.  Sure, the three geeks are shaping up to be a threat (especially their leader), but the threat they represent really pales when compared to how Life can grind a person down.

Joss Whedon is quite familiar with comic books.  He knows that once you've featured a Galactus-level villian in a series, you have to take a bit of time afterwards to deal with more down-to-earth problems in order to keep the show/book grounded.  If you don't, you risk having the entire story fly apart.  She faced a god last season, this season she faces...two!  That would be tantamount to having a comic feature Galactus in one issue and the Beyonder in the next.  No, it just wouldn't work.  The world would crumble under the strain of that much power.

I love Buffy.  It's not a perfect show, but it's a great one.


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## Angelsboi (Mar 13, 2002)

ok lemme explain.  i dont mean the psyche ward was the Real World.  I mean what the doctor said gave a clue to everything.

"You have always faced big bad monsters, last year you 'faced' a God.  And now you are being tormented by 3 school students you cant take care of."

And she hasnt been able to do this.  Odd huh?  Lets see, Luke, Darla, The Master, Angelus, The Trioka, The Brotherhood of Aurolious, a Bezoar Demon, Glory, Adam, a government military instillation, Ethan Rayne, Faith, Demonic Mayor ... all super powered villians ... and now we are at 3 ordinary students.  The doctor pointed that out.

and by the way, ive been saying since last season Tara was going to die.


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## Ashtal (Mar 13, 2002)

Well, at least with the Troika, one thing is stopping her: they're human.

Name any beast you want, and she's got killing rights.  Humans as the enemy makes it messy.  She can't go out and kill them, she can't turn them over to the police.  What's left?  Foiling their plans and minimizing the damage, hoping that they will take care of themselves.


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## Angelsboi (Mar 13, 2002)

Faith was human, The mayor was human (before the ritual), Ethayne Rayne was human .... 

and the Trioka as the three assassins (the biker guy, worm man and the cop woman)


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## Florin (Mar 13, 2002)

I'm going to add my voice to the approval for this episode.  I think it was a great turning point for Buffy.  All season long she's felt like she doesn't belong, like she's not as good as she used to be, that nobody needs her because they all took care of themselves while she was dead, she's missed her parents, her father figure left, etc.  Now, with that little speech Joyce got Buffy back onto the path of recovery.  Sure, it was kinda cheesy that it only took a speech from a figment of her deranged imagination, but hey, at least there's a chance *someone* will be happy this next episode!!!

I also liked the unconditional love that her friends gave her, even after she beat them up, tied them up, and sicked a demon on them, they knew that she wasn't acting herself and forgave her right away for it.  They just proved that they are true friends and have and will always love her for who she is, not what.


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## Ashtal (Mar 13, 2002)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *Faith was human, The mayor was human (before the ritual), Ethayne Rayne was human ....
> 
> and the Trioka as the three assassins (the biker guy, worm man and the cop woman) *




Faith is only incarcerated because she chooses to be.
The Mayor ceased being human after the ritual, thus he was killed.  Buffy would never have slain him as a human, even before he made himself impervious.
Rayne is being held by the Initiative, probably illegally.

These are all options that are unavailable to Buffy at this moment in time.  They are all human, not inately magical, and there is no one who would be interested in detaining them.

The assassins were assassins:  Worm man is a demon, 'nuff said.  Cop woman...was she actually killed?  I don't recall.  Still, being human, and trying to kill someone in a school would warrant regular arrest.  I forget the Biker Guy.  If he was human, and she killed him (I'll have to go check), it was in self-defense.  Again, though, not in the same league as three weird teenagers who, for all intents and purposes to the world outside of Buffy's domain, have done nothing wrong.

What can you do?  Nothing but wait and pray.


Ashtal


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## Zerovoid (Mar 13, 2002)

Near the end of season 5, when those knights are attacking to try and kill Dawn, Buffy beats up a number of them and they fall off a moving vechicle onto the road.  I think she even throws an axe at one.  I definatly thought this was in character since she was protecting her sister, but I was surprised that they never dealt with this.  Probably just because the plot was moving too fast at the time.

I think the thing about season 6 isn't that the arc is bad, its that the individual episodes just aren't as good as they used to be.  They don't have the charm and wit that they used to.  Perhaps the show is suffering in this way because Joss isn't paying attention to it, even if the metaplot is still on track.


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## Pielorinho (Mar 13, 2002)

This was my favorite episode since "Once More, with Feeling."  I was skeptical about the "Is the whole world just a hallucination?" plotline, but I think it was handled quite well:  the vampworld and the hospitalworld were equally plausible, the motives for the characters in each world could equally be interpreted as dangerous hallucinatory fragments of Buffy's own personality, and Spike's and Mom's speeches to Buffy balanced each other very well.  I was expecting, in the final shot, for the doctor and Mom and Dad to morph into demons, or for the hospital room to be floating in a void -- but Joss, bless his evil heart, didn't make it so easy on us.

IANAD, but did the shrink's advice to Buffy -- to kill off all her fantasy friends -- sound like singularly bad advice to anyone else?  Even if she were crazy, it doesn't seem like good advice to give to a girl who fantasizes about being a hero; rather, it seems custom-designed to drive her away.  Had I been the doctor, I would have told her to go back to the fantasy world and give her powers to the peopel that lived there, so they could function without her.

Of course, if I'd been the evil hallucinations of a demon, I would've told her to kill her friends.

Daniel


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## Shadeus (Mar 13, 2002)

I loved this last episode.  I really saw the hospital world as Buffy looking at herself from a distance (the doctor, Joyce, her father being the vehicle she used).  I actually felt the most significant thing was when Buffy let the demon loose to kill her tied up friends and she faltered for a moment....could she really kill her friends?

Then Joyce came over and talked to her.  I can't recall exactly what she said, but it really was powerful to me (and to Buffy).  She tried to convince her that she had a well of strength in her heart and it wasn't like Buffy to just roll over and die.  Of course Joyce was trying to convince her to stay in the dreamworld, but it really was the kick in the ass she needed in the vampire world to get her life on track.

I don't expect this to make her happy, but I expect Buffy to be more assertive as she has been before her mother died.  She's kind of been in a funk since then (and rightfully so).  Now the illusion of Joyce told her that she's stronger than that and hopefully it will be what she needs to turn her life around.


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## Magnus (Mar 13, 2002)

Zerovoid said:
			
		

> *I think the thing about season 6 isn't that the arc is bad, its that the individual episodes just aren't as good as they used to be.  They don't have the charm and wit that they used to.  Perhaps the show is suffering in this way because Joss isn't paying attention to it, even if the metaplot is still on track. *




Thank you Zero. that's exactly what i was _trying_ *sigh* to get at. i agree with Wolfspider (like i usually do ) that after the god, they needed to calm down and ground themselves. but like i said, as the main plot for the entire season, it doesn't do it for me. at least not in the way that this show has left a feeling of satisfaction or great expectation at the end of each episode in the past. now, when the eps are done, i just flick over to WB for smallville. no big sigh. no real satisfaction. no pressing need to call up one of my friends and go: "DID YOU SEE THAT!!!" it just doesn't have the depth of feeling, ironically, that the other seasons had. for me anyway.

and, no. i don't need constant killing to entertain me. American Beauty was one of my favourites too. but it's a lot more difficult to pull off that much emotion. and few people manage to get it right. like i said, it's not that i don't like the emotion in this season. it's that it feels forced. it doesn't seem to flow naturally. at least for me. ... i'll still watch tho. if only to make sure that my Buffy's ok in the end


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## coyote6 (Mar 13, 2002)

Ashtal said:
			
		

> *Faith is only incarcerated because she chooses to be.
> *




Buffy also had nothing to do with Faith being in jail -- that was Angel.

However, I think he was referring to Buffy trying to kill Faith -- remember that Buffy went out to kill Faith (to get her blood to save Angel). Faith's survival was largely due to luck; she got away, and was found & taken to the hospital before she bled out. 

OTOH, Faith wasn't actually the same as Joe Human, either; she was a Slayer, and a rogue Slayer at that.

As for Buffy & co. taking care of Warren & co. -- remember, they haven't been able to find them since they found out about 'em. Granted, the search has been hampered by the gang's preoccupation with their personal lives, but then again, the Troika doesn't exactly ooze Grand Menace -- not a lot of ranks in Intimidation amongst those three. Combine that with the lack of impending doom -- no prophecies, no Ascension day, no Key, no opening Hellmouth -- and the pressure to Find Them, Now! just isn't there.

Yet.


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## Wolfspider (Mar 13, 2002)

Although I love Buffy immensely, I'm kinda hoping that this season is the last for the show.  I want it to end while it's strong, and not degenerate and become weak.  I want a definite ending to the story of the vampire slayer named Buffy.


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *Although I love Buffy immensely, I'm kinda hoping that this season is the last for the show.  I want it to end while it's strong, and not degenerate and become weak.  I want a definite ending to the story of the vampire slayer named Buffy. *




There will be a season seven.  I know everyone is contracted threough season seven.  I imagine after that it will either be over or severely changed.


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## DM_Matt (Mar 13, 2002)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *
> IANAD, but did the shrink's advice to Buffy -- to kill off all her fantasy friends -- sound like singularly bad advice to anyone else?  Even if she were crazy, it doesn't seem like good advice to give to a girl who fantasizes about being a hero; rather, it seems custom-designed to drive her away.  Had I been the doctor, I would have told her to go back to the fantasy world and give her powers to the peopel that lived there, so they could function without her.
> 
> Of course, if I'd been the evil hallucinations of a demon, I would've told her to kill her friends.
> ...




Yup.  Thats the point when I became entirely sure that this was not the Real World.  

Besides, what DM out there hasn't at least CONSIDERED combining Wis-Damage poison with illusions (or charms) to really mess wiith your PCs?


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## Angelsboi (Mar 13, 2002)

i dont know if UPN will let it go after two years.  im thinking it will go for 9 years.  There are some shws (like friends) that have done EXTREMELY well


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Mar 13, 2002)

Buffy won't be dreaming, otherwise the show Angel will cease as well, and they wouldn't allow the show to be like a whole dream world if Buffy was one...think about that.


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## Metallian (Mar 13, 2002)

nemmerle said:
			
		

> *
> Anyway, if one must take the thing literally (which one shouldn't) the fact that there were scenes in the "vampire world" independent of Buffy's presence where the venom and the demon and her reaction were discussed *




I believe that this is the best case for the "standard Buffyverse" being the real world and the asylum being the fantasy. There were plenty of scenes in the Buffyverse that took place independent of Buffy's presence, and there were no scenes in the "asylumverse" independent of Buffy's presence.

I think the convincingly real asylum world was just Buffy's envenomed brain's attempt to make a world that was "more real than real." And, I guess, give viewers a creepy glimmer of doubt. But I don't think the Powers That Be would seriously consider really invalidating the Buffyverse we've all come to know and love.

                       The Metallian


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## DM_Matt (Mar 13, 2002)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *Buffy won't be dreaming, otherwise the show Angel will cease as well, and they wouldn't allow the show to be like a whole dream world if Buffy was one...think about that. *




[DEVIL's ADVOCATE] Not necessarily.  Buffy choe not to "wake up" to the real world.  Thus, the both BtVS can still go on, as can Angel, whether or not the asylum was the real world."  Angel will just be stories that exist in the world of Buffy's mind.  Its completely convievable that a crazy persion would imagine stuff going on in their internal world that they are not present for  [/DEVIL's ADVOCATE]


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## Metallian (Mar 13, 2002)

Ashtal said:
			
		

> *
> Again, though, not in the same league as three weird teenagers who, for all intents and purposes to the world outside of Buffy's domain, have done nothing wrong.
> *




Well, Warren was seen (in public) leaving a bar with a woman who died under mysterious circumstances later that night.

And they did rob a museum (freezing a security guard in the process). I don't recall them wearing gloves, either (though they may have been), so they probably left fingerprints.

               The Metallian


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## Cor Azer (Mar 13, 2002)

Metallian said:
			
		

> *Well, Warren was seen (in public) leaving a bar with a woman who died under mysterious circumstances later that night.
> 
> And they did rob a museum (freezing a security guard in the process). I don't recall them wearing gloves, either (though they may have been), so they probably left fingerprints.*




As well as hiring someone (well, a demon) to rob a bank for them...


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## Dr. Confoundo (Mar 14, 2002)

sotmh said:
			
		

> *I will make one prediction regarding the show, though.  I think, at the end of the series or season, Buffy will end up with Jonathon.   It makes so much sense.  Especially after this season, Buffy is in about the same place in her life as the little guy.  Plus, since we know Joss is kind of a geek, it's not a stretch to speculate that he might "get the girl" in the end.*




I haven't had a chance to sit down and chat with my buddy Danny Strong lately (he and I went to high school together, and we see each other every now and again for dinner), so I don't know the exact details, but from being an avid Buffy fan, I doubt that this is the case. If anything, Jonathan will get killed by Warren when he tries to stop his former partners from doing something really evil. Buffy will witness this, and proceed to kick serious Warren heiney.

Doc
(Who now works at the agency representing both Willow and Giles... cool, huh?)


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## Mr. Grimm (Mar 14, 2002)

Although this can be argued away as well by saying she dreamed up her HS years as well as everything else, I'll throw this out there:

If Buffy's been in the asylum for 6 years how can her current foes be 3 pathetic friends she went to high school with?  I mean most high schools seem like they're made up of the criminally insane but I don't think they actually have the ones in straight jackets attend.


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## Chun-tzu (Mar 14, 2002)

Ultimately, it does not matter which world is "real." Try to think about it from a postmodern perspective: there is no absolute truth. Many truths are found in any given object, in any given person, and in any given story. Neither perspective is more valid than the other, because both are true. We will each choose one perspective over the other, because we find it more compelling, but that does not mean it is the absolute truth.

This episode was great, because it questioned everything that went before it. It didn't invalidate everything that went before, like a retcon, but it made you rethink the entire Buffy saga and consider it from a new light. And it didn't cop out by telling you the "right" answer.

I believe it's already been stated that this idea has been done before, in Deep Space 9 (too lazy to go back and check right now). I've also heard that George Clooney once suggested a Batman movie that used this same premise: that "Batman" was a fantasy created by a tortured Bruce Wayne, as a way of dealing with his parents' loss. Would have made a good story (although it's already been told, like last night by Joss), but the studios are going in a different direction with Batman.


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## TBoarder (Mar 18, 2002)

I finally got to see Normal Again tonight(Stupid Philadelphia UPN station pre-empted it for hockey... @%#$), and was absolutely blown away.  

I've enjoyed this season so far, but I've had some problems with it.  Nothing huge, and I completely understand that most of what I don't like has to do with this season's story arc, which I AM enjoying overall.

First, I've been frustrated with the lack of interaction among the cast members.  They've been concentrating SO much on Buffy and Spike, on Xander and Anya that we haven't seen much beyond them.  Spike and Dawn have a wonderful chemistry together (not THAT way ), but we haven't seen any good scenes between them since the premeir.  Same goes for Xander and Spike, Willow and Xander, Giles and Willow, Buffy, Willow, and Xander, etc.  The cast works SO well together, but they're not taking advantage of it at all this season.

We haven't seen the Scooby Gang in action nearly enough.  When's the last time we saw Xander patrolling with Buffy?  When's the last time we saw all of them working together on a problem without being distracted by their respective significant other's?  Last season, Buffy decided (wisely) that she doesn't want her life to revolve around who she's with, that she wants to concentrate on being Buffy.  It seems she forgot that, and it seems like Xander and Anya fell into the same trap.  Bargaining had that amazing intro with the entire gang hunting vamps, and being rather successful.  They showed experience, coordination, and skill, but when Buffy returned, they all seemed content to allow Buffy to be the only one to hunt anymore.

The final thing I've been leary of is the growing "commonness" of demons.  I like Clem quite a bit, but seeing him and the others in broad daylight (Buffy's birthday party, Xander's wedding, the loan shark from Tabula Rasa) is making the Buffyverse a bit too... cartoonish.  It was easier to suspend disbelief when demons and vamps hung out at Willy's and didn't interact with the rest of the populous except to eat them.  Now it seems like Demons are just another minority in the world and not something that you should assume at first sight to be evil and kill.

Finally, with Normal Again, I see things returning to normal.  We actually had Xander and Spike hunting a demon together.  Spike actually TALKED to both Willow and Xander.  They're starting to become the tight-knit group they were in the past 5 season (except for Season 4, where they went through a similar period of seperation).  I can't wait to see if Willow and Tara get back together now.  I can't wait to see Spike become closer with other members of the Scooby Gang (LOVED Tara teasing him at Buffy's birthday party).  I can't wait to see how Anya handles Xander leaving her at the alter and I can't wait to see them all get their act together and beat the snot out of Warren and Andrew.


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## Agnostic Paladin (Mar 18, 2002)

I really liked Buffy this week, for the second week in a row. I guess ME wants to have Buffy in a better place emotionally for the end of the season. Which is good, since next year is supposed to be the final season. They needed to hit Buffy with all the traumatic events of the past year's worth of episodes so that they can have her overcome her destiny of dying young like every slayer before her has. (Unless they decide to end the show with an "inevitability of fate" thing and have her still fighting demons as the last episode fades away, maybe with a flash of her eventual violent death.) The way that her fate and her desire to escape it has been brought up every few episodes of the entire series makes it likely that the eventual happy ending is that she'll find some way to cheat fate - perhaps by fundamentaly altering the way the Buffyverse works and removing the need for a secret chosen one. This week's ep was another example of Buffy's wish to be normal, to not live in a world of monsters, and innate heroic nature that keeps her going back for more. It was also the best that I've seen the "what if the protagonist's nifty sci-fi world is simply the elaborate delusion of a schizophrenic in a perfectly normal world?" done. Its a lot more effective when the protagonist might be inclined to prefer the idea that everything they are isn't true and that they're simply a drugged-up straightjacketed loon. When the protagonist never even considers choosing the mundane reality (*cough*Sisko*cough*), then the story has no impact beyond a "neat episode" comment.


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## Chimera (Mar 19, 2002)

Maybe Clooney has been watching BTAS?  There was an episode where Scarecrow had Bruce Wayne/Batman trapped in some kind of Virtual Reality, which was supposed to give him everything he wanted.  He was just 'good old Bruce Wayne'.  His parents were still alive.  He was not Batman, although Batman existed in that world.

Only problem was, he couldn't *read* anything.  That's how he figured out that it wasn't real.  Me, I figured that was a weak 'out' for the episode, but it was very good otherwise.

I hope Joss figures things out soon.  This whole "tortured self-doubt" bit DOES NOT FLY.  Angel got really weak (as a show) and I stopped watching because of that kind of crap.  Now he's doing the same thing in Buffy.  SCREW AN ENTIRE SEASON OF WISHY-WASHY SELF-DOUBT!  Give me a hero I can look up to and enjoy watching, not some whiny loser who can't figure out his/her own feelings.  It's definitely NOT my kind of entertainment.


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## LostSoul (Mar 19, 2002)

Chimera said:
			
		

> *I hope Joss figures things out soon.  This whole "tortured self-doubt" bit DOES NOT FLY. *




Are you sure you're watching the right show?  I've been watching reruns of Buffy, and things have been just as bad for her before.  She just doesn't have any evil to kill anymore.

"Tortured self-doubt" is one of Buffy's stronger themes, and has always been.


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## Chimera (Mar 19, 2002)

Yes, but the "whine and cry and hide in the corner for an entire season" bit sure gets old.  A couple of episodes here or there I can understand and enjoy.  An entire season is depressing.


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## LostSoul (Mar 19, 2002)

True, point taken.  It is a bit of a departure from earlier seasons.  I guess tastes just vary.


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## ToddSchumacher (Mar 19, 2002)

I hust started watching Buffy only recently (Since the FX marathon on Thanksgiving) and I must say this season isn't my favorite (That would be season 3!). But I like the fact that they are straying from the formula, and trying something new. But the show just isn't the same without Giles. I really miss him.

Hopefully the final episode will be more exciting.


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## uv23 (Mar 19, 2002)

[bitterness]
Frankly, I've had it with Buffy. I'm a diehard Angel fan. I got into Angel before I even knew what Buffy was so I came in backwards. I feel that with Angel there is a great dynamic in terms of combining seriousness, humor and grit all together very nicely with a cast of characters that are all likeable, especially the villains.

The only reason I can watch Buffy is because I (used to) like Zander et al. The accompanying cast was great. But Buffy and her "woe is me" routine and "blah blah you can't understand what its like" crap has gone beyond tiresome to the point of being loathesome. Frankly I'd be happy if she kicked the can for good.
[/bitterness]


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## Hand of Vecna (Mar 19, 2002)

Has Angel been moved? It didn't come on last Monday at it's usual time, nor did it come on last night. If it's been moved, when does it come on?

Oh, and FYI, tonight's Buffy is "Tabula Rosa," the one where Willow accidentally makes the Gang forget everything...


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## ToddSchumacher (Mar 19, 2002)

Angel has been put on some sort of Hiatus until Tax day April 15th I think, thats when the new episode airs.


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## Mr. Grimm (Mar 21, 2002)

I've come to the conclusion that Buffy actually is dead.  Last week in Normal Again, we were given an idea that this might be the truth:  When Buffy fought and beat Glory and subsequently sacrificed herself to spare Dawn, she died.  We all know that, but I believe she really has never returned.  Instead, we have Beta Buffy from her parallel universe.  Beta Buffy, in my theory, has been "insane" since Alpha Buffy was chosen as the Slayer -- Beta has been connected to Alpha through visions for 6 years.  As mentioned in Normal Again, Beta awoke and was okay 'last summer' when Alpha was dead.  But then Willow cast her spell in an attampt to bring back Alpha Buffy's body to Alpha Buffy's body.  But the spell was miscast during a scuffle and instead of Alpha, Beta Buffy was sucked into Alpha Buffy's corpse.

After years of insanity, Beta Buffy believes she was in 'heaven' last summer where she was with the ones she loved.  Beta has felt disconnected with Alpha's world ever since she returned and she has been unable to fight or interact well with those she is supposed to know and love.  Tara, when telling her why Spike could hit her, explained that she basically had a different cellular tan because of returning from where she was -- Tara specifically did not say that Buffy was dead, or in heaven.

Anyway, that's my current theory.  I'll have a new and more convoluted one in a week or two.


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## Chimera (Mar 21, 2002)

Sounds plausible to me.


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