# Welcome to the 5th anniversary!



## Michael Morris (Dec 27, 2004)

A New default theme and a new feature to celebrate EN World's 5th anniversary.  If you've been playing with Electric Blue or PHB the new style shouldn't be that big a shocker.

The big new feature today is the feats database.  Currently the permissions are set so that only staff can add or edit items in the database.  Once Kevin and Russ hammer out a final policy and the debugging is complete we'll turn this lose on everyone. Note that the final version will be only available to community supporters.


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## johnsemlak (Dec 27, 2004)

I"m probably blind, but is the link for the feats database up yet?  I'm scanning the site and I can't find it anywhere.


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## Nellisir (Dec 27, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I"m probably blind, but is the link for the feats database up yet?  I'm scanning the site and I can't find it anywhere.




Try under House Rules.  I found it in the "New Posts" box (MM had just added Armor Proficiency (Heavy)) on the R side of the main menu and chased it back from there.

Cheers,
Nell.

Who has many many feats.


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## Michael Morris (Dec 27, 2004)

The Feats Database is here.


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## Piratecat (Dec 27, 2004)

Is it accessible by non-moderators at the moment? If so, I don't believe it should be. Michael, can you check?

Incidentally, that's wonderful work.


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## Michael Morris (Dec 27, 2004)

It can be read by non-moderators but not posted to by them.


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## EricNoah (Dec 27, 2004)

Nice work!  I do miss "Large Font" (and I know we've discussed overriding the text size in IE etc. but it ends up making other websites look weird).  If you're considering a Large Font version of any style I would appreciate it!  My vote would be for Electric Blue Large Font.


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## Michael Morris (Dec 27, 2004)

Ok, Eric - I'll put it on the list of things to do.

At the moment though I'm a little tied up entering every feat from the SRD into the database.


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## diaglo (Dec 27, 2004)

for some reason the url code isn't working in GD. ....


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## BSF (Dec 27, 2004)

Wow Michael, a lot of nifty things.  I'm not sure I prefer the new style for work usage, but it is cool looking.    The feats database is pretty interesting as well.  

Thanks for your hard work.


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## Castellan (Dec 27, 2004)

It's great to see all the hard work being put into the site. I really appreciate it!

Is the older "default theme" likely to be available as an "old school" option in the User Prefs? The background on the new default is a little bit too distracting for my tastes. I'm using Player's Handbook theme, but I like the black background (don't know why... just do!) and would love the previous theme to still be available.

Whatever you choose to do, keep up the great work!


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## Ferret (Dec 27, 2004)

Yes, the hard work is much appreciated. Much niftyness alround.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 27, 2004)

Awwww, I kind of liked feeling special using the new style for so long. Guess I can say Great Job! again in the open now! And I love the Feats Database


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## jezter6 (Dec 27, 2004)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

While it looks nifty, it's a distraction and more graphics == pain to load for me. Is there ANY chance you can make the old black default it's own theme that will not get played with every few weeks? I like the stealth, but I just can't stand the whiteness of it because I'm so used to the black default settings.

Please just separate the standard black theme for those of us who like things the way they were without having to be played with every time an occasion comes up?


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## Morrus (Dec 27, 2004)

The classic EN World style and a new stealth style will both be available as options.  It'll take Michael a day or two to do it, though!


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## Crothian (Dec 27, 2004)

the new style looks great, but it needs a report bad post function that works


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## barsoomcore (Dec 27, 2004)

Please make it a priority to get the old default style available as quickly as possible. I find this new style much less readable. Thanks.

Out of curiousity, what is the reasoning behind the change? Was there a problem with the previous theme that this theme is meant to address? Because honestly, if these changes are being made just for fun, that's fine, but PLEASE offer them as new options rather than as a new default. Unless there's a demonstratable improvement in usability over the previous theme, I fail to see the point in this.

Feats database looks like it will rock, however. Now THERE'S some demonstratable improvements! Nice work.


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## Truth Seeker (Dec 27, 2004)

Ferret said:
			
		

> Yes, the hard work is much appreciated. Much niftyness alround.



So, ye is another finger, sponored by the Hand of Evil...welcome...*BWHAAAAAAAAA!!!* ahem.


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## Turanil (Dec 27, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> The classic EN World style and a new stealth style will both be available as options.




Thanks. Despite a lot of work has been put into this new style, I prefer the old one. Don't want to sound whiny, but this new 5th anniversary style, although being nice, makes me think of a mausoleum, a crypt of some sort. Of course, considering this is a d20 rpg messageboard favoring D&D discussion, and since D&D is mainly about dungeon delving, and since the archetypal dungeon is a crypt, well... it's probably appropriate.


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## Fieari (Dec 28, 2004)

Wasn't Crothian's post count listed as TILT before?  It seems to have gone back to listing an actual number...


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## buzz (Dec 28, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> The classic EN World style and a new stealth style will both be available as options.  It'll take Michael a day or two to do it, though!



Bless you.

I appreciate all the hard work you guys do, but the new default makes my eyes bleed worse than Electric Blue and the PHB look. The old school style will be welcome. Something with the calming greys a la a typical phpBB install would be nice, too.


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## buzz (Dec 28, 2004)

I miss the old post icons, too. The new ones all look very identical to me. Same background, white on white and grey; very hard to read.

Sorry to be a jerk, guys.  Just tryin' to help.


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## RuminDange (Dec 28, 2004)

Very nice new default theme...I like it, and don't have a problem with it normally, but the graphics, background really drag down a slow connection that I use when away from home.  Both connections are high speed but one is wireless.  
Nothing says don't read EN World like watching one little 3 inch band of screen after another refresh just for a 3 line scroll, and that is if it doesn't lock up the browser and cause me to start over.  :\     Gave up several times today trying to read threads as it was just much of a pain.  Even tried changing themes but with all of them using the same graphical background it made no difference.

Thanks for all the hard work.  Waiting patiently for the old school theme to become an option.

RD


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## howandwhy99 (Dec 28, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> The classic EN World style and a new stealth style will both be available as options. It'll take Michael a day or two to do it, though!



I for one appreciate that.  The stealth style is very useful.  Thanks.


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## Michael Morris (Dec 28, 2004)

Guys, you have to live with the new default for awhile - I have to insure the template changes that are about to be made work in one place before I extrapolate them to other styles.

Why tinker with the code?  Ask nemmerle.  Last week his Aquerrla site was one of over 23,000 victims to a worm targetted at phpbb2. It wiped pretty much every web related file it found off his server. While we're not vulnerable to that particular worm, we are vulnerable to others like it.  Every day we remain at RC4 instead of being on 3.0.3 increases the chance of a similar exploit being used against us.

Since such changes require the large sections of the code to be rebuilt from the ground up, and since the 5th anniversary was coming up I wanted to make a style that was different yet familiar enough to be recognizable as ENWorld - sorta like the 3.5 core books are different from the 3.0 books but still recognizable.  The actually changes between the styles are few but it has more textures.  I guess I'm just a textures guy - I don't like looking at large panes of even color because such things don't exist in nature.  It has a mechanical feel which goes against that of a D&D or medieval site. Another reason for the change is to _celebrate_ five years.  Very few sites reach that milestone.  Most sites on the internet last around two years at which point the founders burn out and no one is around to pick up the pieces.

I know some of you don't like it - I expected as much. No matter how many hours I spend working on options someone will complain.  At least though the comments here have been kept civil and for that I'm thankful. But this isn't easy.  Vbulletin has around 16,000 lines of code spread over 230 files and 690 templates PER STYLE.  ENWorld's custom code adds around 4000 more lines and counting and around 70 more files - and that's not counting the reviews section.  And as much as I've learned and figured out I'm still very much a beginner at PHP.  I'm only now starting to really get my head around how PHP and MySQL interact and how vbulletin manipulates and stores the data provided to it.

I'm only one person and there's only so much I can do. I've given up a lot to free up more time.  No one noticed, but Dusk is gone - taken down because I don't have the time for it. I haven't played D&D in almost a year - even at Gencon I was so tied up with ENnies business I couldn't find time to play.  Better to be part of a living site than the sole maintainer of a campaign setting no one but myself gives a damn about. It was a painful choice, but one I've made and would make again.

Despite that though, I do enjoy what I'm doing immensely. I've given up my job and went back to school to learn how to do this sort of thing well enough so that I can support myself doing it professionally. The next year is going to be very rough, but I know it will be done.

As you might be able to infer, I'm sitting on the edge of ranting here.  I've spent almost a full day away from the keyboard because after 3 months of careful work I really thought this new theme would go over better than it has.  And yet almost all the first messages were "let us change it back."  I'm not angry - but I am dissapointed.


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## Allanon (Dec 28, 2004)

If your goal is to become a professional programmer than I'm sorry but you'll have to learn to live with it. I've been involved in a two year project in which a very old program coded in cobol (which was horrific as it ran in a dosprompt with green text  )was replaced by a new, shiny, user-friendly program coded in pascal/delphi which could do so much more, so much faster. We released it 5 weeks ago and since than it's been nothing but complaints, request, bugs, etc. It's a flaw of human nature to resist change. Humans are creatures of habit and anything than threatens or alters those habits will recieve flak because of it. If it helps I like the new style (although I hate missing stealth to use at work )


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## Michael Morris (Dec 28, 2004)

Allanon said:
			
		

> If your goal is to become a professional programmer than I'm sorry but you'll have to learn to live with it. I've been involved in a two year project in which a very old program coded in cobol (which was horrific as it ran in a dosprompt with green text  )was replaced by a new, shiny, user-friendly program coded in pascal/delphi which could do so much more, so much faster. We released it 5 weeks ago and since than it's been nothing but complaints, request, bugs, etc. It's a flaw of human nature to resist change. Humans are creatures of habit and anything than threatens or alters those habits will recieve flak because of it. If it helps I like the new style (although I hate missing stealth to use at work )




You're paid.  My payment - if there is one - is the happiness of the user base.


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## haiiro (Dec 28, 2004)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> As you might be able to infer, I'm sitting on the edge of ranting here.  I've spent almost a full day away from the keyboard because after 3 months of careful work I really thought this new theme would go over better than it has.  And yet almost all the first messages were "let us change it back."  I'm not angry - but I am dissapointed.




I may just be projecting my own opinion here, but I'd say that changing the default style -- without (for the moment) leaving the old one available -- is always going to ruffle some feathers. Sometimes that feels like change for the sake of change, although I don't think that's your intention.

I like that you're always busy trying to keep the site's look and function vital, and working on new changes. I don't always make use of them, or like the changes, but I appreciate the effort. I've made similar, if less direct, comments in the past, too -- so it's not just because of your post above. 

That said, I too very much miss the old default -- I find the interaction of unmatched texture edges very distracting and disjointed. The main forums page really highlights this for me -- instead of clear divisions between the different sections, things wash together, and each forum's line jumps jarringly into the next one.


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## buzz (Dec 28, 2004)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> I guess I'm just a textures guy - I don't like looking at large panes of even color because such things don't exist in nature.  It has a mechanical feel which goes against that of a D&D or medieval site.



Like I said, I don't mean to harsh on all the hard work that has been done. We all appreciate all the work that you and the other mods do running ENWorld. This is my home on the Web.

Still, I do Web design for a living, and while I'm not an expert graphic designer, I know what works for the human eye, and what looks contemporary. Textures beneath text make for extremely difficult reading for most people; this is why, while not "natural," books tend not to be printed on textured backgrounds (and tend to be dark print on light backgrounds). Textures are also pretty old-school when it comes to the Web.

These are all very basic design principles. Keeping designs simple not only enhances readability (with the right color scheme), they also decrease necessary bandwidth, easing load on the server and saving you money on hosting.

That said, I'm finding that the PHB theme is working for me and keeping things readable.

I'm sorry you feel disappointed, Michael. I hate to be Mr. Crabby. Still, I want to contribute opinions that I hope will make ENWorld better for everyone, and I can't help but comment that the new uber-textured look is just very hard on my eyes, looks dated, and the non-color-coded, textured post icons are proving less helpful to me.

Here are some sites I feel are exemplary of quality deisgn, to give you an idea where I'm coming from. These are mostly professional design firms.

http://www.happycog.com/
http://www.zeldman.com/
http://www.coudal.com/index.php
http://www.alistapart.com/
http://www.malarkey.co.uk/
http://www.brothercake.com/

Or, don't listen to me. I'm just another yahoo.  As long as there are other theme options, I'm fine.


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## Allanon (Dec 28, 2004)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> You're paid.  My payment - if there is one - is the happiness of the user base.




Ah, but me being paid depends on my projects being accepted by the user base, I can get sacked if the user base grumbles too loud. Also money doesn't make it any more fun to sit through hour long meetings discussing why they liked the old way better . Plus I commented in part on the fact that your going back to school to learn more about programming and want to persue a job in that line of work (or am I minsinterpreting you?).

In the end, my point still stands. Users will never happily accept massive changes in their established working patterns, thus my comment that you'd better get used to it if you're planning more of these kind of changes.


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## howandwhy99 (Dec 28, 2004)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Guys, you have to live with the new default for awhile - I have to insure the template changes that are about to be made work in one place before I extrapolate them to other styles.



No Problem.  Ranting on the internet is common enough I think we can take it.  Plus the sheer amount of work you do around this place you deserve to let off steam.  

I use the stealth set at work like many others do I guess.  As it's the holidays it really isn't a problem right now.  In fact, I've gone electric blue and am loving it.  

Keeping the site up sounds more important anyways.


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## Michael Morris (Dec 28, 2004)

buzz said:
			
		

> <snip>
> 
> Here are some sites I feel are exemplary of quality deisgn, to give you an idea where I'm coming from. These are mostly professional design firms.
> 
> <snip>




Well, I was dissappointed, but now I am pissed.  You're implying that it isn't professional!? That I don't know what the Hell I'm doing but need to have my hand held even after redesigning - on contract - the entire Wizard's of the Coast web board?


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## jezter6 (Dec 28, 2004)

Hey Mike, you know me in person, so you know I'm not half the rude buttwipe I am on here some days.

I know you do hard work, and it does look spiffy. The only problem I have is the one good style (default black that we're all used to) is always the one getting tweaked and changed during times. If you made the default black a separate entity, then played around with a 'new' default, then I'm sure many of us would be happy. As it is now, the only non-super colored w/ texturized backgrounds is white stealth, which is just the inverse of what we've all known and loved for many years.

I have no problem with you toying with new styles, and making them available for most of the people, just don't remove a good style that we're all familiar with to bring in the fancy and bold stuff.

At the WotC boards, you made the old ugly default style a quick change for those that didn't like the high graphics and wild colors...do the same here and make sure that the old options that work aren't constantly being changed, but feel free to bring new customs in for those that want them. Keep everyone happy that way.

And since you're the boards guru at 2 of the largest RPG sites on the net, I'd say you're plenty 'professional' in the terms of what you do, and you do pretty well at it. Criticism will always come during change, and unless there's no other option, old settings should always be available to those who are scared of change (like me).

And to the poster who said it's slow on high speed connection, try running it at 28.8 dialup and tell me how slow it is.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Dec 28, 2004)

Well, I'll go against the grain here and say that overall I like the new look.  It does not seem any more difficult to read for me, and it seems to load at the same speed it always did (which I've always thought was more the function of the server and with the forthcoming upgrade that should improve).  

And remember a prime customer service rule: people are always more likely to complain than they are to praise.


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## RuminDange (Dec 28, 2004)

jezter6 said:
			
		

> And to the poster who said it's slow on high speed connection, try running it at 28.8 dialup and tell me how slow it is.



Ouch! And I thought my connection was bad.  28.8 would suck a lot.  
I've got cable at home and have no problem with the new look.  I like it and it is fast to load.  But the wireless high speed (unreliable crappy) connection I use at work causes problems with sites with heavy graphics or textures.  
My only complaint, if you want to call it that, is not having the classic style to fall back too when on the slower connection so that I can get my ENWorld daily fix.   

RD


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 28, 2004)

I've been using the new Default style since...ooh, when was it that it was first set up, Michael? A couple months or so now. Close at least.

At first, it bothered me because it was so close but so different. Yet I kept using it, and now I've grown to absolutely love it. People are talking of professionalism and such in web design. People, IMO, the site looks MORE professional like this. Its not just a blank flat color(which isn't bad), and it has more life to it. Five years and a site needs a good kick. And if you don't like it...well, live with it until the 'old' Default is back. Honestly, it isn't nearly as bad as some of you seem to be acting, and trust me on this...Michael has been working his BUTT off on this style to get it just right.


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## Turanil (Dec 28, 2004)

buzz said:
			
		

> That said, I'm finding that the PHB theme is working for me and keeping things readable.
> 
> I'm sorry you feel disappointed, Michael. I hate to be Mr. Crabby. Still, I want to contribute opinions that I hope will make ENWorld better for everyone, and I can't help but comment that the new uber-textured look is just very hard on my eyes, looks dated, and the non-color-coded, textured post icons are proving less helpful to me.




I second these comments.

Nonetheless, thanks for all the great job you do for free on Enworld. I can clearly see you spent much time on it, and know how it is then to hear about people's complaint, especially when those people don't do anything themselves to improve the site. In any case, even if I said that the new default style is tiring on my eyes, I must say the new PHB style, on the other hand, is very well done.


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## barsoomcore (Dec 28, 2004)

Hey, MM, I'm sorry you feel underappreciated. If you're not enjoying it, don't do it.

I believe you that it's a huge amount of effort to make these new styles. Which leads back to my original question: why do it if the current style is working okay? I mean, if there isn't a compelling reason to make the change, why bother, given that it's so much effort?

Nothing looks more mechanical than repeating patterns -- the textures currently part of this theme look MORE mechanical than the flat colours we had before, not less. Take a look at the great dialog sites on the net -- SlashDot, A List Apart, Wikipedia. Look at the Creative Commons site. Heck, look at Google, probably the most useful site on the entire internet. They don't look mechanical, they look SIMPLE. USEFUL. COMFORTABLE. They don't sprawl with repetitive textures

I spend a lot of time on ENWorld -- and I PAY to do so. When you go ahead and make a bunch of changes without consulting me, and make the site significantly less useful to me, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to tell you I'm happy about it. If that makes you angry, well, again I'm sorry. But like buzz and Turanil have said, I consider it important that I contribute my opinions to the discussion on how this site should look. You're free to ignore them, of course.

Nobody knows better than I how much work you're putting into this, Mike. I'm not trying to call you names. I'm trying to tell you that this appearance makes the site less useful to me.


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## drakhe (Dec 28, 2004)

*MM, you got my thumbs up!*

First of all, MM, you've got my thumbs up. I'm in IT also (not exactly webdesign but close enough) and I know what levels of effort are required and then some. I also have no problem whatsoever with the new style. It sure is as readable as the previous default and I'm guessing that with over 20000 members, there would be some complaints if you go back. With 20000+ members, there's going to be comments whatever you do.

BTW: paying to visit ENWorld in my opinion does not entitle you to anything. This site was created to provide a forum for DnD Enthousiasts and like minded folks to share experiences and information. It's kept running by the hard work of a bunch of volunteers [a tip of me hat to each and every one of you, you know who you are]. That people pay to support the site is at least in my case just because I recognize the hard work and because I want to be able to enjoy ENWorld for a long time to come. I pay to reward these volunteers and to help keep ENWorld afloat. I do not expect anything else in return. Heck, if ENWorld would disappear tomorrow, I would be sad because the forum was gone, but not for the money I had spent on the site. Even though I might have an oppinion and like or dislike some decisions concerning the site, and might even want to voice them (in a way that's appropriate for Eric's Gran offcourse   ), IMHO the money I volunteer does not give me any rights other than to come here to enjoy and participate in this great comunity.

So three cheers for the ENWorld Staff and an extra one for MM!


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## jezter6 (Dec 28, 2004)

Turanil said:
			
		

> I second these comments.
> 
> Nonetheless, thanks for all the great job you do for free on Enworld. I can clearly see you spent much time on it, and know how it is then to hear about people's complaint, especially when those people don't do anything themselves to improve the site. In any case, even if I said that the new default style is tiring on my eyes, I must say the new PHB style, on the other hand, is very well done.




See, there's the point that gets me thinking...the last 2 times I've seen major design changes (and said my comments about them), they were changes that just appeared. Nobody else has control over site design and changes are not publicised in advance, and the one style I would bet most people use, is the one always changing.

If there was a "what do you think would look neato" poll posted around the forums (and not just meta, because many people don't hang out and watch threads here) that everyone can contribute, it would make people feel more like a part of changes (and give plenty of warning in advance). Then everyone is aware of upcoming changes, as well as being able to have an opinion about them before the hard work gets done to implement something that people don't like.

If I would have had the chance to see the new post globes (even just a couple of them) outside of being forced to, I could have said why I don't like them, and others who posted in the post-globe change thread could have as well, and Mike wouldn't have had to work so hard to hear people complain. If this change was posted somewhere obvious saying "hey, look what we're going to do to the DEFAULT style" then we could have asked Mike to at least keep a copy of default black instead of having to go back and fix it for everyone. That and we would have known change was coming in advance.

That's just my thoughts.


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## BSF (Dec 28, 2004)

jezter6 said:
			
		

> And to the poster who said it's slow on high speed connection, try running it at 28.8 dialup and tell me how slow it is.




It's not too bad at that speed, all things considered.  Still, compared to the 8Mbps I use at work ...

Well, compared to work everything is slow at home.


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## buzz (Dec 29, 2004)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Well, I was dissappointed, but now I am pissed.  You're implying that it isn't professional!? That I don't know what the Hell I'm doing but need to have my hand held even after redesigning - on contract - the entire Wizard's of the Coast web board?



Michael, it may be time to step away from the keyboard for a bit.  You're inferring something that's not in what I wrote.

By "mostly professional" I'm only saying that the sites I've used as examples of where I'm coming from (and what I think looks good) aren't just sites I think are pretty, but sites designed by some of the most-sought-after designers around, i.e., people who get paid big money by large corporations (and HappyCog.com and Zeldman.com done by the author of one of the definitive books on current design techniques). I.e., when I talk about white-on-black or text-on-texture being hard to read, I'm citing principles that are part-and-parcel of graphic design. Design isn't just about creating art, it's about creating tools. A Web site is a tool, and functionality needs to come first.

Like I said, I'm just one person, and I certainly appreciate all the work that you do for ENWorld. That's one of the many reasons I feel it's worth paying to be a community supporter, and why I help organize Chicago Gameday. I sincerely apologize if I've bummed you out.

While I don't agree with them, there are obviously people who really like the new theme (as they've spoken up right here). Nonetheless, I just feel compelled to comment. I'm not crabbing just because there's been change; I wasn't all that enamored of the old theme, but it was usable. I simply don't like the new theme, and I think there are sound, design-specific reasons why.

But, like I said, as long as there are alternative themes, I'm okay, and you can tell me to shut up.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 29, 2004)

jezter6 said:
			
		

> See, there's the point that gets me thinking...the last 2 times I've seen major design changes (and said my comments about them), they were changes that just appeared. Nobody else has control over site design and changes are not publicised in advance, and the one style I would bet most people use, is the one always changing.




Just wanted to tell you that these changes and such were 'polled' as sorts, but not to the public. Really, there's just too many people here on ENWorld to make that possible. But Michael had a bunch of threads on 'how does this look' 'what about this?' etc etc all through the Staff Forum as this was being tweaked. So it isn't just his doing. Blame everyone with access to that forum.


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## Zappo (Dec 29, 2004)

I like the new style. 

 MM, keep in mind that people who post on a thread are more likely to be the ones who disagree with the change. For example, I wouldn't have posted if I didn't feel the need to say this. I'm positive that most enworlders like the change.


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## Starman (Dec 29, 2004)

FWIW, I like the new look. I really like it, in fact. I don't have a problem reading light text on a dark background and the textures don't make it a problem, either. I also haven't noticed the site as being any slower than it was before the change and I am on a crappy dial-up connection. 

Starman


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## Thornir Alekeg (Dec 29, 2004)

jezter6 said:
			
		

> See, there's the point that gets me thinking...the last 2 times I've seen major design changes (and said my comments about them), they were changes that just appeared. Nobody else has control over site design and changes are not publicised in advance, and the one style I would bet most people use, is the one always changing.
> 
> snip
> 
> That's just my thoughts.




While that would be nice, it is not reasonable to think that the staff here should take the time to check with the - how many? 20,000 users of this site?  - before they make changes.  And what would be the criteria for allowing a change?  Loudest complaints win?  Majority rule?  If 51% hate the look and 49% like it, does that mean they should not implement it?  

I trust that, as Ankh-Morpork Guard stated, the rest of the staff is in on making decisions about the site, there are good reasons behind them (such as improved security and functionality), and that it is not one person just making changes willy-nilly.

We are members of EN World, not owners.  We are not owed anything by the people who put this site together and keep it running.


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## jezter6 (Dec 29, 2004)

I don't 'expect' ownership of anything, but it would be nice to see changes and be able to comment on them before, rather than complaining about them later. I don't think it's unreasonable to post a sticky where people can see it and give it a few weeks for comments before going ahead with it.

The only reason I really thought it would be a good idea is the typical 'put up or shut up' argument that many people on this board use. It was really in reply to another poster saying that we (as a community) don't do anything on our own to keep the site working and looking good. And you can't give all of us access to forum code. I have no problem contributing in any way I can to the design of EN World, but if we're locked out (threads with pretty pictures of the new forum look in a secret forum) there aint a whole lot any of us can do to contribute.

Boiling it all down, it would be nice if we had some input before things went into place (even if it's largely ignored, at least we voiced our opinions), and old things stayed old and new things became opitions instead of standard.

-jez, who doesn't like the last 2 forum looks, still looking for plain old black, no fancy backgrounds, no fancy backgrounds inside the 'quote' and 'reply' buttons.


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## RangerWickett (Dec 29, 2004)

Michael, I like most of the changes so far (actually, what happened to that nifty patterned background we had yesterday?).  The only thing I'm not too keen on is this new white stripe after each post.  I know I have often in the past been against change just for change's sake, but I like the site when it's mostly dark, and the bright white stripe throws things off for me.  A darker color would probably work fine, though.

Keep up the good work, and remember, most of us like the site as it is.  If you get grumblings when you change something, just remember that it's not like the site _needs_ to change appearance.


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## barsoomcore (Dec 29, 2004)

drakhe said:
			
		

> BTW: paying to visit ENWorld in my opinion does not entitle you to anything.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> IMHO the money I volunteer does not give me any rights other than to come here to enjoy and participate in this great comunity.



In my not-at-all-humble opinion, participating in this great community MEANS trying to improve it when and how I can. If I see something that I think needs changing, how am I being a good member of the community if I DON'T speak up? I don't feel ENTITLED to point out things I think need to be improved. I feel REQUIRED to do so. It's my duty as a good member of this community to try and keep it healthy.

The people making these changes should WELCOME input -- whether it applauds or condemns their work. Their drive ought to be to make this site as useful, as powerful and as comfortable as possible for ALL users. If that's not what they're trying to do, then they're in the wrong game. If they don't want to hear my opinion. then they should say so and I'll shut up.

And take my thinking elsewhere.

But I honestly believe that Michael and Morrus and all the hard-working moderators, and indeed the majority of the users like myself, honestly want to make this site BETTER. That means we all have to contribute our brainpower to the collective pool, offering our opinions and treating each other with respect. NOT shutting up and accepting whatever's given to us just because it was hard work.

I value hard work when it's in the service of making things better, not in and of itself. I understand Michael worked very hard to create this theme. That doesn't make it in and of itself a worthwhile venture, and I won't insult his intelligence by lying to him about what I think of it. And I expect from him no response to my input other than, "Thanks for the input." He may or may not pay the slightest bit of attention to what I'm saying -- he's the big web wazoo and I trust him to do what's in the best interest of the community. But he needs my input -- he needs EVERYBODY'S input -- to do his job properly, and so it's my duty to give it to him, whenever it's anything besides "Meh."

To say that giving blind approval at all times is being a better community member is hogwash. Good members of the community speak out on issues they care about, because they want things to be better.


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## Michael Morris (Dec 29, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Michael, I like most of the changes so far (actually, what happened to that nifty patterned background we had yesterday?).  The only thing I'm not too keen on is this new white stripe after each post.  I know I have often in the past been against change just for change's sake, but I like the site when it's mostly dark, and the bright white stripe throws things off for me.  A darker color would probably work fine, though.
> 
> Keep up the good work, and remember, most of us like the site as it is.  If you get grumblings when you change something, just remember that it's not like the site _needs_ to change appearance.




Bright white stripe? Missing pattern??  Sounds like you're missing some images - hit refresh on the browser to reload all the images.


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## Enkhidu (Dec 29, 2004)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Bright white stripe? Missing pattern??  Sounds like you're missing some images - hit refresh on the browser to reload all the images.




I'm getting the same thing on 3 different browsers and 2 computers.


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## talinthas (Dec 29, 2004)

it's like that for me too, MM.  i've been browsing the board for a good half hour, and not a single thread i've checked today hasn't had a white strip dividing each post.  it's very distracting.


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## Enkhidu (Dec 29, 2004)

OK - let me preface by saying something really quickly: I in no way disapprove of the methods being used to test and poll changes to the default scheme (or, in fact any of the schemes). In general, I like them, though I think that even if I didn't like them its not my place as a guest of the board managment to second guess their choice of drapes. In addition, I have been on the receiving end of the gripes associated with IT change more times than I like to remember. So, please take what comes next as constructive criticism meant to help make your (and by this I'm talking mostly to MM, who gets the brunt of the flak - MM, I've always thought you've done professional level design, though I haven't always agreed with your go-live methodology. please remember that when you read this) volunteer filled lives a bit easier...

I'm positive that you can make less grief for yourself by implementing two things: 1) public beta testing and 2) one week's lead time warning of a major style change in the default. Both could be handled very easily during the same period - simply make the new scheme available during a "soft opening" and then make it the default one week later. 

I'm fairly sure that this will ruffle fewer feathers, give you ample time to test the new scheme in different environments far more completely than you can in yout test bed, and provide smoother transitions. I hope that it helps.


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## barsoomcore (Dec 29, 2004)

Not sure if this is what other people are seeing, but when I view the boards using the "Slate" theme, the lower box of each post (where the "Online Now", "Report Bad Post", "Quote" and "Quick Reply" buttons live) is solid white, and the background image (the repeating ENWorld logo) is covered with a dark grey background from the toolbar on down.

I see this on both Firefox 1.0 and Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows XP. It's definitely NOT a caching issue -- the white box appears on refresh, and the background image DOES load (I can see it before the main table draws, and it's visible above the toolbar), it just gets covered up with a solid background.

That said, I'm really glad to see the "Slate" theme provided so quickly. I also think Enkhidu's recommendations are sensible ones. I don't mind folks twiddling themes, indeed I'd like to encourage it, but it's also important to let people get out of the site what they want and need.


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## BSF (Dec 29, 2004)

It does depend on the theme.  I see the white bar on Slate, but not on the default or the Player's Handbook theme.  My private forum here also has it.  Hmm, maybe I should check the settings on the admin side for that.  I am probably overriding the theme.


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## Doc_Klueless (Dec 29, 2004)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Bright white stripe? Missing pattern??  Sounds like you're missing some images - hit refresh on the browser to reload all the images.



I'm pretty much getting the same thing, if I understand what he is saying. The white bar is very shocking to the eye and draws it away from the actual posts. I don't see any texture except at the very top. 

Oh, heck. I've attached a Jpg of my screen to try and be helpful, instead of trying to incompetently describe what I'm seeing.   

Keep up the good work!


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## RuminDange (Dec 29, 2004)

Michael,  thanks for supplying the other themes so quickly.  The slate is much faster on the slower connections.  
I also get the write bar between posts.  Looking at the page source, the problem is likely in the alt3 css class used for the table data that contains the status icons and qutoe/reply buttons.  Possible typo or something missing.   Hope that helps.

Thanks.
RD


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## Michael Morris (Dec 29, 2004)

Y'know, with 6 stylesets if there's a problem with a set it sorta helps if you specify.  The slate set is NO LONGER the default.  Referring to it as such only confuses me.


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## Psionicist (Dec 29, 2004)

Whoa. Normally I don't bother with themes, but this looks _awesome_. Nice work!


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## buzz (Dec 30, 2004)

Stealth is the BOMB, yo! Thanks for being so attentive, Michael


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## Doc_Klueless (Dec 30, 2004)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Y'know, with 6 stylesets if there's a problem with a set it sorta helps if you specify.  The slate set is NO LONGER the default.  Referring to it as such only confuses me.



AAaaaaah, that answers so much. Reset my options to the _actual_ default. Looks really cool!

That's for clearing that up for the mentally challanged (I don't call myself Doc__Klueless_ for nuthin', ya know!)


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## Arnwyn (Dec 30, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> It does depend on the theme.  I see the white bar on Slate, but not on the default or the Player's Handbook theme.  My private forum here also has it.  Hmm, maybe I should check the settings on the admin side for that.  I am probably overriding the theme.



It's a big black bar in Sky.


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## EricNoah (Dec 30, 2004)

Thanks for the large text!  My eyes appreciate it!


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## drakhe (Dec 30, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> In my not-at-all-humble opinion, participating in this great community MEANS trying to improve it when and how I can. If I see something that I think needs changing, how am I being a good member of the community if I DON'T speak up? I don't feel ENTITLED to point out things I think need to be improved. I feel REQUIRED to do so. It's my duty as a good member of this community to try and keep it healthy.
> 
> <big snip... it's still there in the original post   >




Barsoomcore, I get your point, I do! (just look back to the part you quoted out of my post: "...enjoy and PARTICIPATE...>. I probably placed some wrong emphasis (english not being my mother language). My point is just this: Paying for membership helps the site survive. You do get some extra options: search, customising, ... . But in the end it's up to the designated staff (volunteers or not) to work out the way the site is run. Sure, you can comment. Sure you can give advice, but the problem withthis kind of a comunity is, it has a lot of members. So there is a lot of different tastes, opinions and so many different people see through different eyes. The one as a design pro, the other as a gamer-geek, the third with wonder and exitement because it's the first time they are on the net. 

Imagine that 10% of all the folks in the states that registered to vote had sent a letter to the white house demanding this and stating that and supporting such and hating the other... It wouldn't help too much: too much input... overflow...

It's a delicate balance. On more than on occasion I stopped myself from posting, because I found that although I had a valid point, it was to marginaly different from others and especialy in threads with a great many posts, does "the community" need another post that says the same only different? Or another post ... I hope you get my point.

So yes, in a community, you participate. Yes,there is such a thing as freedom of speech and such. Yes, anybody doing something creative should a least be prepared to listen to comments andcritique. But paying to be a community suporter does not make your voice louder, and diplomacy and restraint is sometimes a better virtue then wanting to make it better at all cost.

But then again thats all IM*H*O.

Tell you what, as long as we can discuss these matters as adults, it's like you say, critique, remark,... should be possible. Now I'm goingto donate some for the victims of the wave


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## haiiro (Dec 31, 2004)

Thanks for updating Slate and making it available again, Michael. It looks good with the new icons and other little changes you've made across the board.


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