# Why is Polar Ray an 8th level spell?



## darthkilmor (Apr 22, 2008)

Title says it all, link for easy reference


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## jaelis (Apr 22, 2008)

Because of the high damage cap.

Not saying it's a good reason, but I think that is the reason.


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## Victim (Apr 22, 2008)

The high damage cap, and bad spell design.


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## Enkhidu (Apr 22, 2008)

High damage cap + no reflex save = kills rogues dead.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 22, 2008)

jaelis said:
			
		

> Because of the high damage cap.
> 
> Not saying it's a good reason, but I think that is the reason.




It's exactly the reason, and it is a very good reason.

All the evocation spells work this way. (All spells, actually, work this way behind the scenes, but it's most evident with evocation.)

Spell Level: Single Target Cap(s) / AoE Cap(a)
0: 5(s)/0(a)
1: 5(s)/5(a)
2: 10(s)/5(a)
3: 10(s)/10(a)
4: 15(s)/10(a)
5: 15(s)/15(a)
6: 20(s)/15(a)
7: 20(s)/20(a)
8: 25(s)/20(a)
9: 25(s)/25(a)

EDIT: For the record, it has no save because it requires an attack roll (it's a ray). 

There are very few spells that require both. It's generally either an attack roll, or it grants a save; if it requires both, it'll have something else wonky going on. Such spells are unusual.


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## Victim (Apr 22, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> It's exactly the reason, and it is a very good reason.
> 
> All the evocation spells work this way. (All spells, actually, work this way behind the scenes, but it's most evident with evocation.)
> 
> ...




That's true to some extent.  A spell with a higher damage cap generally must be higher level.  However, I don't think that a higher damage cap is sufficient by itself for a higher level spell.  Higher level damaging spells should also be getting some sort of secondary benefit with their higher level.  To use core damaging spells, Delayed Blast Fireball has the delay feature AND a higher damage cap.  Horrid Wilting improves on effective blast radius, is selective, and does untyped damage.  Using SC, spells like Radiant Assault can apply Daze as a secondary effect.  And there are the Orb spells.  Polar Ray is just more damage - for an 8th level effect it should be attaching some ice/cold related debuff or something along with that maximum 25d6.


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## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

In my game, it deals d10s. That's why it's still 8th level.

Otherwise... uh... no clue.

Cheers, -- N


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## akbearfoot (Apr 22, 2008)

Because they needed to have a crappy 8th level spell to give high level NPC casters so they don't all waste your party with back to back horrid wiltings?

Otherwise it should probably be a 7th level spell IMO.  Even then its not as good as DBF.


Great way to kill red dragons though...dumb red dragons anyways


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## mvincent (Apr 22, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> EDIT: For the record, it has no save because it requires an attack roll (it's a ray).



But at high levels a wizard can make the touch attack roll _far_ more reliably than a target will fail a reflex save, adding to the effectiveness of the spell.

Example: unless you have an epic caster level (in which case you can do better than an 8th level spell anyway) the ray will do the same damage as say, Chain Lightning... unless the opponent makes his reflex save, which they tend to do. I see skipping their saving throw (in favor of a ranged touch attack) to be a big advantage at higher levels. Without that, I can't see the spell being worthwhile.


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## darthkilmor (Apr 22, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> It's exactly the reason, and it is a very good reason.
> 
> All the evocation spells work this way. (All spells, actually, work this way behind the scenes, but it's most evident with evocation.)
> 
> ...





Whats the point of these damage caps really, just to make low level spells unviable at high level?


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## Corsair (Apr 23, 2008)

darthkilmor said:
			
		

> Whats the point of these damage caps really, just to make low level spells unviable at high level?




Basically.

Without those caps, casters would be even more powerful because they could last much longer against stronger opponents than they can now, further relegating warriors and non-magical combatants to a "stand in front of the wizard until the wizard kills them" role.


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## mvincent (Apr 23, 2008)

darthkilmor said:
			
		

> Whats the point of these damage caps really, just to make low level spells unviable at high level?



Mostly. If for example, shocking grasp had no cap, it would take some of the joy out of learning/using spells higher than 1st level.


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## jaelis (Apr 23, 2008)

Just for fun, try comparing polar ray to deadfall (SpC) sometime.


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## VanRichten (Apr 23, 2008)

Hmm lets see.

20th Level Sorcerer
Rod of Greater Twinning
Sudden Maximize

vs

Fire Subtype Creature

Sorcerer hits creature for first effect dealing 180 damage and then again for 180 damage.

Total of 360hps of damage.  Not too many creatures I know of that at that level can take that much damage all at once.  So I can see why that spell is an 8th level spell.

And if you really want to be nasty.  Make the Sorcerer a Archmage and have him convert the spell to energy its target is weak against or just sonic for anything else.


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## jaelis (Apr 23, 2008)

VanRichten said:
			
		

> Total of 360hps of damage.  Not too many creatures I know of that at that level can take that much damage all at once.  So I can see why that spell is an 8th level spell.



Delayed blast fireball would do the same damage to multiple creatures and has the handy delay feature.


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## Starbuck_II (Apr 23, 2008)

VanRichten said:
			
		

> Hmm lets see.
> 
> 20th Level Sorcerer
> Rod of Greater Twinning
> ...




What book has greater Twin Rod in it?
What about the Orb spells? Max 15d6. No SR.
You don't need sudden with them: you can use real Metamagic. Even add Split.

So Sorceror with:
(non-greater version)Rod of Twin/Split/Sudden Maximize:
Deals:
15d6=120 +120 =240 + twinned x2=480.
So we end up with a low level slot that deals 3/2rds more.
Yes, we used an additional feat, but it was worth it. We saved money on the rod, but used another feat.


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## WhatGravitas (Apr 23, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Otherwise... uh... no clue.



Because _cone of cold_ is 5th level.

Cheers, LT.


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## darthkilmor (Apr 23, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Because _cone of cold_ is 5th level.
> 
> Cheers, LT.




cone of cold is a , well, Cone, though.  Polar Ray is a single target.

I ask about polar ray mainly because I have a player who wants to research a 3rd level spell that'll do cold damage, and was looking at the damage cap stuff and didnt really see any reason not to just remove it entirely.  It makes lower level spells still viable and gives wizards more staying power. Instead of the "i'm out of 5th level spells, we've gotta camp", they can keep going. Character is only 7th level so its not like he'll be doing 25d6 anyway, just was looking for some kinda-comparable spells. Anyway, sorry for the off-topic, thats just the genesis of the question.

Comparing Polar Ray to Cone of Cold though, I could see polar ray as a decent 4th level spell. Single target vs 60ft cone of targets.


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## the Jester (Apr 23, 2008)

It's simple: No save. 

The touch attack thing is just a nod to balance at higher levels. Very few monsters have a touch AC of 20 or higher. _Very_ few. The wizard ain't likely to miss, barring other defenses (miss chance, whatever). 

No save, people. _That's_ the reason it's 8th level.


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## Enkhidu (Apr 23, 2008)

the Jester said:
			
		

> It's simple: No save.
> 
> The touch attack thing is just a nod to balance at higher levels. Very few monsters have a touch AC of 20 or higher. _Very_ few. The wizard ain't likely to miss, barring other defenses (miss chance, whatever).
> 
> No save, people. _That's_ the reason it's 8th level.




It gets worse when you assume that at higher levels SOP for a wizard is to quicken True Strikes.


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## jaelis (Apr 23, 2008)

the Jester said:
			
		

> It's simple: No save.



But even if you assume everyone saves, DFB can do half as much damage to many more than twice as many targets, plus it is a level lower and has the delay feature.

An empowered orb does _more _damage to a single target, has an additional effect, is SR no, and is only effective level 6.

Deadfall does equal damage to multiple targets with no save, no SR, and has an additional effect.

The only way that polar ray becomes at all competetive is if you are above CL 20, due to the high damage cap.


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## Enkhidu (Apr 23, 2008)

jaelis said:
			
		

> But even if you assume everyone saves, DFB can do half as much damage to many more than twice as many targets, plus it is a level lower and has the delay feature.
> 
> An empowered orb does _more _damage to a single target, has an additional effect, is SR no, and is only effective level 6.
> 
> ...




The first example, balanced (half as much damage as area effect), and core.
The second, not core.
The third, not core.

If core is assumed to be basically balanced, then I think we have a case of pwoer creep.


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## Asha'man (Apr 23, 2008)

Polar Ray is not a bad 8th level spell, it is quite adequate. It's not GREAT, but as has been stated, high damage cap and no save make it useful. Or rather, it should be useful. The reason it isn't is power creep -the Orb spells (And certainly Deadfall) are simply too good.  For people who use those spells and still care about internal balance, it might be dropped to lvl 7 or upped to use d8 for damage, but I think you'd do better to nerf the others. 

(On a tangent, I might add that I don't think vancian spellcasters are systematically broken -there are just too many overpowered spells. And not just in splatbooks either)

-Edit: Grr, ninjaed!


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## Will (Apr 23, 2008)

DFB is better because it does half as much damage to many targets?

Well, that's great. If you have more than two targets. And they are close together. And you can arrange not to hit your allies. And the targets don't have evasion.

The fact that a given spell is more useful in a specific situation than another, and the other is more useful in different situations, is a feature, not a bug.


And removing damage caps on spells would pretty much break the system. Personally, I wish the system was designed like psionics; flat damage based on spell level. Want to do more damage? Cast a more powerful spell. But that's me.


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## Kerrick (Apr 23, 2008)

> The high damage cap, and bad spell design.



Damage caps are a result of level, not the other way around. If I make a spell that makes a ray of cold - touch attack (so no save) that deals 1d6/level. If I make it 3rd level, the cap would be 10d6. If I made it 5th level, the cap would be 15d6. If I made it 7th level, the cap would be 20d6.



> No save, people. That's the reason it's 8th level.



It doesn't have a save because it's a ray. Ranged touch spells _never_ have a save because you have make an attack roll.

I think its it's 8th level because 8th level sucks for evocations. We've got Bigby's clenched fist (deals 1d8+11 once/round), Otiluke's TK sphere (no damage, but can be used to move opponents), greater shout (good spell, but a chance of catching your friends in it), and sunburst (best against undead, but has a chance of blinding your friends). Greater shout tops the list here because it's sonic damage and can stun targets, but polar ray is also good because it's a touch attack. You could put it at any level and have it work - it just ended up at 8th.


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## evilbob (Apr 23, 2008)

This might be too difficult to articulate over a forum, but I believe many folks have gotten something a bit turned around:  the spell isn't 8th level because it has a 25d6 damage cap; it has a 25d6 damage cap because it is 8th level.  It isn't 8th level because it doesn't allow a save and it is only a touch attack; it allows no save and is a touch attack because it is a ray.

It's really just a standard evocation ray spell that does single-round cold-typed damage to one target of any type.  The "reason" why it is 8th level is because as an 8th level, it is allowed a high damage cap.

If you're looking for some kind of reason why it doesn't do "more," I'd say the spells seems fine to me.  It looks like it may be the potentially most powerful single-target, burst-damage spell (i.e. not "damage over rounds) in the PHB spell selection (other than meteor storm, which is 9th level and takes 4 touch attack rolls but could do 32d6 damage to a single target), and the fact that it requires only a touch attack roll instead of a save and works on any creature that isn't immune to cold (as opposed to only working on "living" creatures) makes it seem pretty strong to me.

(If I were an evoker and had a couple bonuses to my caster level, this spell seems like a prime candidate for Arcane Thesis + Energy Substitution + Empowering...)

Edit:  Kerrick beat me to the punch!


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## Will (Apr 23, 2008)

Polar ray + sudden maximize + energy substitution sounds like a pretty solid candidate for high level blasting.


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## Folly (Apr 23, 2008)

I do not get why people keep saying that it not having a save is such a great feature. A d20 is still being rolled, the only thing that is changing is who is doing the rolling. And for those who say, but the wizard will never miss the attack: Dragons. If it was a reflex save from a high level wizard the dragon is just as boned either way. There are numerous other example of either high reflex save, high touch ac, low reflex save, and low touch ac. Also bringing quicken True Strike into the picture is adding a 5th level spell to the picture. The trick to being an evoker is to have a wide variety of spells prepared in order to exploit the weakness of the target.

Thus since touch attack vs reflex save is about equivalent, comparing it against DFB is a good comparison. DFB can affect multiple targets but there are no tricks to increase your DCs, while Polar Ray is a single target but you can augment your hit bonus without too much cost. Yet DFB has the delayed effect in addition to the damage it does.


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## Slaved (Apr 23, 2008)

I would rather use an Energy Substituted Maximized Empowered Scorching Ray Spell. It is One Level Lower and I can use it on up to Three Targets at one time!     

I would not even say that this is a Good Option but I would find it Preferable!


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## pawsplay (Apr 23, 2008)

Didn't it use to share bunk space with freezing sphere? If so, part of the reason may be legacy. Anyway, it's just fine at the level it is, and while it certainly invites researching more exciting spells for that level, that's fine, too.


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## jaelis (Apr 23, 2008)

I guess this is my point:  I think that a ray spell that dealt 1d6/level damage, max 20d6, would be a 7th level spell.  An area spell that dealt 1d6/level damage, save half, max 25d6, would be an 8th level spell.

To me, that implies that the reason polar ray is an 8th level spell is the high damage cap, and nothing else.


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## Sparafucile (Apr 23, 2008)

One good thing about Polar Ray is that it doesn't require any metamagic feats. You don't need to have acess to Empower, Maximize, etc to make it effective.

Other combinations of evocation spells may do more dice of damage, but if you want to be a Sorcerer with bloodline feats, you can still get some damage out there as long as you have an eighth level spell.


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## Folly (Apr 23, 2008)

jaelis said:
			
		

> I guess this is my point:  I think that a ray spell that dealt 1d6/level damage, max 20d6, would be a 7th level spell.  An area spell that dealt 1d6/level damage, save half, max 25d6, would be an 8th level spell.
> 
> To me, that implies that the reason polar ray is an 8th level spell is the high damage cap, and nothing else.




I agree that that makes sense. The issue comes from the fact that the 7th level AoE spell has an additional feature. Since this it the case, it would make since if polar ray also had an additional power of similar strength.


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## roguerouge (Apr 23, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I would rather use an Energy Substituted Maximized Empowered Scorching Ray Spell. It is One Level Lower and I can use it on up to Three Targets at one time!




And it requires either three feats or casting the spell with one hand while holding a rod and balancing the other two rods on your head....


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## kreynolds (Apr 23, 2008)

Kerrick said:
			
		

> It doesn't have a save because it's a ray. Ranged touch spells _never_ have a save because you have make an attack roll.




Disintegrate? Or were you referring to just straight-up damage-dealing energy spells?


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## Corsair (Apr 23, 2008)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> Disintegrate? Or were you referring to just straight-up damage-dealing energy spells?




Disintegrate gets its own wonkyness because it essentially deals double damage.  Hence the need for the save.


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## Victim (Apr 23, 2008)

Sparafucile said:
			
		

> One good thing about Polar Ray is that it doesn't require any metamagic feats. You don't need to have acess to Empower, Maximize, etc to make it effective.
> 
> Other combinations of evocation spells may do more dice of damage, but if you want to be a Sorcerer with bloodline feats, you can still get some damage out there as long as you have an eighth level spell.




It does require caster level boosts though.  Otherwise that 25d6 cap doesn't get used.  Especially when the spell first becomes available.  Sure, an 8th level spell caps at 25d6.  Too bad the 15th level wizard casting it is only doing 15d6 - the same as a 4th level single target spell according to those guidelines above.  Some upgrade.  So you could strip out the secondary feature, and SR: No conjuration BS from Orb spells, and Polar Ray is worse at 15th level.  A few more levels gives it fairly minor damage advantages at the cost of a much higher level spell.

And if you're using Core for balance, then caster level boosts for arcanists are rather scarce, so the high damage cap is wasted even at 20th level.

That's why high level damage dealing spells should have additional advantages appropriate to their spell level.  To say otherwise is to suggest that save based attacks shouldn't get any stronger in effect as they advance in level either - you're getting that sweet +1 DC per extra spell level after all.  And even that comes into play immediately when the spell is available, instead over after a few extra levels.


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## Arkhandus (Apr 24, 2008)

When they split up the Emotion spell in 3.5, they made some of its former functions into lower-level spells than Emotion itself was (it was only 4th-level in the first place because it had a variety of different uses).  Polar Ray really doesn't deserve to be 8th-level, and the 25-die damage cap isn't much use in a core-rules spell.

It was core in 3.5, so using non-core supplements for Twin Spell and Sudden Maximize and Energy Substitution and suchlike isn't much of an argument for why Polar Ray was 8th-level in the 3.5 PHB.  Disintegrate can do 40d6 damage anyway (by 20th-level) if the target doesn't make their save, doesn't rely on a specific energy type that can be resisted, and still deals 5d6 damage on a successful Fortitude save.  That will generally kill a Rogue, a Wizard, or similar fellow (like a Fey, Undead, Construct, or Aberration, who also have low base Fortitude) outright.

A 16th-level fighter might have touch AC of 18, with a Ring +5 and a 16 Dex in mithral full plate.  A 16th-level rogue might have touch AC of 24, with a Ring +5 and 28 Dex in Gloves +6.  A 16th-level wizard will have a ranged attack roll of +13 maybe, with +8 BAB, +4 Dex, and +1 Weapon Focus (Rays).  Sure, he can Quicken True Strikes, but he still has to deal with energy resistances for Polar Ray.  Any reasonably old red dragon is probably going to have Protection from Energy (Cold) active anyway, while white dragons won't care, demons and devils will often resist a nice chunk of the damage, etc.  The Polar Ray will certainly be useful against fighter-type NPCs or others who might not have invested in energy resistance.

Evasion is not that common.  And Disintegrate works better than Polar Ray for many purposes.  Anything it doesn't work well against (high Fortitude saves) will be the stuff Delayed Blast Fireball works well against, or Irresistable Dance (followed by DBF or similar), or Mage's Sword.  Polar Ray just isn't worth its spell level compared to Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, etc.


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## evilbob (Apr 24, 2008)

I guess I just see this spell as "one more option."  It's like the question, "why would you need lightning bolt if you have fireball?"  Because even though their damage/save is equal, they still do different things.

Polar ray is a touch attack with no save; does that cover every situation?  Of course not - but it will be the best choice in certain situations.  Other spells use a reflex save - again, sometimes that's what you need, sometimes it is not.  Disintegrate uses a fort save:  occasionally you want a spell with a fort save and occasionally you don't.  Sometimes you just want a high-burst-damage, single-target touch attack.  Sometimes you don't.  Does that make the spell more or less useful than other spells?  Not really.  In fact, depending on the campaign - which ultimately, this is what all "is this useful" questions come down to - it could be much MORE useful than other spells.  It all depends... which is why blanket statements about usefulness are generally un-useful.  

Ultimately, I would postulate that this spell has its uses and is probably "balanced" with other spells of its level.


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## darthkilmor (Apr 24, 2008)

evilbob said:
			
		

> Ultimately, I would postulate that this spell has its uses and is probably "balanced" with other spells of its level.




It certainly has uses, but I'd hardly call it balanced with other 8th level spells.
You could have a whole range of the same spell from 3rd to 8th, the only difference being the max damage die because of what level they are. There's nothing that polar ray does that it couldn't be a 2nd or 3rd level spell, with a max dmg die of 10, and a 4th or 5th level version with a max damage die of 15, and a 6th or 7th level version with a max damage die of 20. There are no secondary effects, no "and the subject is slowed for 1 round" or "subject is stuck in place" or "subject is shunted to the plane of ice for 3 rounds".

Heck, if it was 2nd level, compare it to scorching ray and its balanced.



"What have you done Derrick?! Nothing!! NOTHING!!!"


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## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

I failed my save vs. mentioning Psionics.

It's basically already a perfectly balanced 1st level Power... except the Power is better. :\

Cheers, -- N


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## evilbob (Apr 24, 2008)

darthkilmor said:
			
		

> It certainly has uses, but I'd hardly call it balanced with other 8th level spells.



Well, I still would, for all the reasons I listed above.


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## Starbuck_II (Apr 24, 2008)

Corsair said:
			
		

> Disintegrate gets its own wonkyness because it essentially deals double damage.  Hence the need for the save.



It deals 4 x the damage compared to a failed save.
5d6 x4=20d6.


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## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Starbuck_II said:
			
		

> It deals 4 x the damage compared to a failed save.
> 5d6 x4=20d6.



 I think by "double damage" he means 2d6/level.

Cheers, -- N


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## Kerrick (Apr 24, 2008)

Disintegrate is also untyped damage - nothing resists it, unlike polar ray. AND, if you're reduced to -10 hit points (or 0 for undead/objects), guess what - you're turned to powder! No other spell does anything even remotely similar. Having a save in addition to the ranged touch attack is definitely justified in this case, IMO.


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## Folly (Apr 24, 2008)

Limiting to base material.

2nd - Scorching Ray
6th - Quicken Scorching Ray

24d6 Damage for 8 spell levels. Like Polar Ray it has no save, but instead has an attack roll. The benefit here is that you can split up the damage between multiple targets. And while some might say having 6 attack rolls if you are attacking 1 target is a downside, I see this as an additional benefits. Since rolling a 1 on a attack roll doesn't completely blow the spell. Thus this provides a better average of damage.

Polar ray compared to this seems to be rather under-powered for an 8th level spell.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 24, 2008)

Corsair said:
			
		

> Disintegrate gets its own wonkyness because it essentially deals double damage.  Hence the need for the save.




Exactly right-- and 1/4 damage on a successful save. 

It's basically a spell that lets you double down.


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## Will (Apr 24, 2008)

Well, quicken is cheating slightly; it's 2 spells. Though when you're casting 6th level spells, I suppose 2nd level is no biggie.

For more fun, consider Twin Spell - scorching ray (6th) + Quicken spell - Scorching ray (6th).

36d6 damage.


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## jaelis (Apr 24, 2008)

Folly said:
			
		

> 2nd - Scorching Ray
> 6th - Quicken Scorching Ray



Your scorching ray trick would be hurt a LOT more by fire resistance than the polar ray would by cold resistance.  And it uses up your swift action and takes a feat.

Not that I fundamentally disagree, I'm just saying.  A better comparison might be a maximized scorching ray, which is only level 5 but does 72 hp, same as an average roll from a CL 20 polar ray.  Still takes a feat and doesn't do so well vs fire resistance, but the option to spread the damage out is nice too.  And it is THREE levels lower a slot.

Of course, one could plausibly claim here that scorching ray is overpowered, rather than polar ray underpowered.


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## Folly (Apr 24, 2008)

jaelis said:
			
		

> Of course, one could plausibly claim here that scorching ray is overpowered, rather than polar ray underpowered.




LOL, so true.


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## Folly (Apr 24, 2008)

Will said:
			
		

> Well, quicken is cheating slightly; it's 2 spells. Though when you're casting 6th level spells, I suppose 2nd level is no biggie.
> 
> For more fun, consider Twin Spell - scorching ray (6th) + Quicken spell - Scorching ray (6th).
> 
> 36d6 damage.




I never really liked Twin Spell and this is why. It is effectively a quicken spell with some hefty restrictions that doesn't use your swift action. Sure the restrictions limit it in some situations, but in others it is completely irrelevant.


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## evilbob (Apr 24, 2008)

The biggest difference between these examples and polar ray is that scorching ray takes multiple attack rolls and disintegrate gets a save on top of the attack roll.  Polar ray takes one roll (which can be truestriked); fewer chances to miss.  It's the "when you positively need to do damage right now with the least amount of trouble" spell.


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## Will (Apr 24, 2008)

If there was a 'sudden split ray,' polar ray would rock on toast... 

Are there any 6th level or lower single-target ray spells? Hmm.

(You know, split ray - ray of enfeeblement isn't a bad idea...)


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## Folly (Apr 24, 2008)

evilbob said:
			
		

> The biggest difference between these examples and polar ray is that scorching ray takes multiple attack rolls and disintegrate gets a save on top of the attack roll.  Polar ray takes one roll (which can be truestriked); fewer chances to miss.  It's the "when you positively need to do damage right now with the least amount of trouble" spell.




But if you are truestrike you are burning a 5th level spell or another standard action. Both of these are additional costs to be taken into account.

As I said originally, the multiple attack rolls is a good thing. The chance for a completely wasted action is significantly reduced, but comes at the price mentioned by jaelis (resistances hurt)


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## darthkilmor (Apr 24, 2008)

Will said:
			
		

> Are there any 6th level or lower single-target ray spells? Hmm.





Searing Light and Bolt of Glory are all i found in the SRD, i'm sure there are some in the spell compendium. Each deals different damage depends on the creature type though.

Acid Arrow is a ranged touch attack, not a ray though.

Ray of Frost? Acid Splash?  Fire Seeds kinda sorta.


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 24, 2008)

I think Bad spell design is really the answer. Luckily the solution is simple. Don't take the spell. Its not like there are not other good 8th level spells. 

Wizards can instead take quickened Orb of Frost, sorcerers can empower it instead. 

the comparison to the 1st level psionic power Energy Ray is hurtful, but polar ray does have better range right?


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## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

jaelis said:
			
		

> Of course, one could plausibly claim here that scorching ray is overpowered, rather than polar ray underpowered.



 Nah, it's totally balanced to drop a Quickened Empowered Admixtured _scorching ray_ from a 9th level slot via Arcane Thesis = 6d6 x2 energy types x3 rays = 36d6 damage as a Swift action; plus another 36d6 from a regular Empowered Admixtured _scorching ray_ in a 6th level slot... [/hijack]

Cheers, -- N


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## Folly (Apr 24, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Nah, it's totally balanced to drop a Quickened Empowered Admixtured _scorching ray_ from a 9th level slot via Arcane Thesis = 6d6 x2 energy types x3 rays = 36d6 damage as a Swift action; plus another 36d6 from a regular Empowered Admixtured _scorching ray_ in a 6th level slot... [/hijack]
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Come on Nifft, you must be off your game today. You forgot the Rod of Maximize, greater. Nothing like 372 points of damage in one round (avg).


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## evilbob (Apr 24, 2008)

Folly said:
			
		

> But if you are truestrike



My point about truestrike was that the spell could _be_ truestriked - as opposed to a scorching ray, which takes multiple attack rolls and cannot be.


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## Folly (Apr 24, 2008)

evilbob said:
			
		

> My point about truestrike was that the spell could _be_ truestriked - as opposed to a scorching ray, which takes multiple attack rolls and cannot be.




It can be truestrike... though it is 1/3 as effective as it is on Polar Ray.


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## Elethiomel (Apr 25, 2008)

Why is nobody pointing out that ER counts thrice against Scorching Ray?


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## Gloombunny (Apr 25, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> Why is nobody pointing out that ER counts thrice against Scorching Ray?



Because you aren't reading everyone's posts?


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## Will (Apr 25, 2008)

Elethiomel is correct for sufficiently large values of zero...


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## kreynolds (Apr 25, 2008)

Kerrick said:
			
		

> Disintegrate is also untyped damage - nothing resists it, unlike polar ray. AND, if you're reduced to -10 hit points (or 0 for undead/objects), guess what - you're turned to powder! No other spell does anything even remotely similar. Having a save in addition to the ranged touch attack is definitely justified in this case, IMO.




Oh, I completely agree. Just wanted to make sure you did too.


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## moritheil (Apr 25, 2008)

Will said:
			
		

> Elethiomel is correct for sufficiently large values of zero...




Priceless.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 25, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> I failed my save vs. mentioning Psionics.
> 
> It's basically already a perfectly balanced 1st level Power... except the Power is better. :\
> 
> Cheers, -- N



 To be fair, augmented 1st-level Psionic Powers aren't good standards by which to judge spells (unless you consider the augmented power to be a spell level commensurate to its cost), lest we wind up saying that all the Summon Monster spells are worse than a 1st-level power.  Other than Globes of Invulnerability, I tend to like the low tier damaging powers better than a lot of the high level ones anyways.


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## moritheil (Apr 25, 2008)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> consider the augmented power to be a spell level commensurate to its cost




Seconded.


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## darthkilmor (Apr 25, 2008)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> To be fair, augmented 1st-level Psionic Powers aren't good standards by which to judge spells (unless you consider the augmented power to be a spell level commensurate to its cost), lest we wind up saying that all the Summon Monster spells are worse than a 1st-level power.  Other than Globes of Invulnerability, I tend to like the low tier damaging powers better than a lot of the high level ones anyways.





For someone who doesnt have any psionics books, can you explain what you just said in 50 words or less?


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## moritheil (Apr 25, 2008)

darthkilmor said:
			
		

> For someone who doesnt have any psionics books, can you explain what you just said in 50 words or less?




Allow me.  Psionics allows you to augment your "1st-level" powers to deal as much damage as your higher level powers.  However, doing so makes them cost as many power points as your higher level powers.  Thus, you are giving up the same amount of power resources.  In most cases an augmented power still isn't as good as an actual power of a higher level (easier saves, more restrictions, or slightly smaller damage dice.)

It's roughly analogous to heightening a fireball spell, and then comparing that to DBF.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 25, 2008)

moretheil's explanation is solid, but I can do it in fewer words, thanks in no small part to the fact that thanks to the SRD, there is no such thing as not having the psionics books.

Explanation.


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## Nifft (Apr 25, 2008)

moritheil said:
			
		

> In most cases an augmented power still isn't as good as an actual power of a higher level (easier saves, more restrictions, or slightly smaller damage dice.)



 In most cases an augmented power is EXACTLY like a higher-level power in terms of save DC and damage dice.

The differences are shape, range, and area.

Psi Energy Ray is 1st level, and shoots one target for 1d6/power point damage.

Psi Energy Bolt is 3rd level, and shoots a line of targets for 1d6/power point damage (save for half).

Neither has a "damage cap", so both can deal equal max damage to a single target. You could spend 15 power points on Psi Energy Ray, and you'd deal 15d6 damage -- just like Magic Polar Ray. And that's what I mean by _polar ray_ being balanced as a 1st level spell. The shape is what's balanced.

Damage caps are an artifact of the Vancian system.

Cheers, -- N


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 26, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> In most cases an augmented power is EXACTLY like a higher-level power in terms of save DC and damage dice.
> 
> The differences are shape, range, and area.
> 
> ...



 Yes--in fact, I prefer Energy Ray to Energy Bolt in almost all cases by a significant amount, not least of which because Ray only costs a 1st-level pick.  But scaling for cost is what Psi Powers do.  Polar Ray's advantage occurs at levels greater than 15, since it scales for free.  Because of that, comparing damage spells between Psionics and Magic is more difficult than a straight up count of the level of the power and spell.


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## Unkabear (Apr 26, 2008)

The purpose of the spell is to be put onto a wand that can be given to the party rogue.


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## moritheil (Apr 26, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> In most cases an augmented power is EXACTLY like a higher-level power in terms of save DC and damage dice.
> 
> The differences are shape, range, and area.




If memory serves, the DC scaling is a little underwhelming (or nonexistent) for several powers.  And shape, range, and area are still valid reasons for the higher level powers to be considered a little better, no?  The opposite of "limited targets" is "affecting more targets;" your analysis is not inconsistent with mine, as far as I can tell.


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## Nifft (Apr 26, 2008)

moritheil said:
			
		

> If memory serves, the DC scaling is a little underwhelming (or nonexistent) for several powers.



 Not the ones that can deal Cold damage.



			
				moritheil said:
			
		

> And shape, range, and area are still valid reasons for the higher level powers to be considered a little better, no?



 That's my entire point. Single-target ray at 1d6/caster level is a 1st level effect.



			
				moritheil said:
			
		

> The opposite of "limited targets" is "affecting more targets;" your analysis is not inconsistent with mine, as far as I can tell.



 What's your analysis again?

 -- N


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## WhatGravitas (Apr 26, 2008)

Unkabear said:
			
		

> The purpose of the spell is to be put onto a wand that can be given to the party rogue.



Too expensive. And if you can pay this baby (and ignore the 4th-level spell restriction for wands, which is silly IMHO), _disintegrate_ is better. With the Sneak attack, the spell does very reliable damage, even on a successful Fort save, everything else is just extra gravy!

Cheers, LT.


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## Infiniti2000 (Apr 27, 2008)

One other point, because it requires an attack roll, isn't _polar ray_ also subject to critting, i.e. double damage?


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## Darklone (Apr 27, 2008)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> One other point, because it requires an attack roll, isn't _polar ray_ also subject to critting, i.e. double damage?



Absolutely.


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## Folly (Apr 28, 2008)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> One other point, because it requires an attack roll, isn't _polar ray_ also subject to critting, i.e. double damage?




Most people, including myself, wouldn't consider that for the balance of the spell. This is because the 1 balances out the 20. Since as in my earlier example, rolling a 1 on a dragon misses even though you likely hit his touch AC. Not including that the crit has to be confirmed the miss(0 damage) + crit(2x damage) averaged is an average of normal damage.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 28, 2008)

Folly said:
			
		

> Most people, including myself, wouldn't consider that for the balance of the spell. This is because the 1 balances out the 20. Since as in my earlier example, rolling a 1 on a dragon misses even though you likely hit his touch AC. Not including that the crit has to be confirmed the miss(0 damage) + crit(2x damage) averaged is an average of normal damage.



 The auto-failure also exists for a saving-throw spell (20 on the save and the spell autofails), but there is no commensurate critical spell success on a natural 1 saving throw roll.  So the ray indeed balances out perfectly, but the saving-throw spell is unbalanced against the caster!


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## Grog (Apr 29, 2008)

Say you have a 15th level Wizard. For a 4th level slot, he can Empower a Scorching Ray and do 18d6 damage. Or, he can cast Polar Ray for an 8th level slot and do 15d6 damage.

Even at 18th level, Polar Ray only gives him the same amount of damage for an 8th level slot that Empowered Scorching Ray does for a 4th level slot.

Polar Ray sucks.


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## Nifft (Apr 29, 2008)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> The auto-failure also exists for a saving-throw spell (20 on the save and the spell autofails), but there is no commensurate critical spell success on a natural 1 saving throw roll.  So the ray indeed balances out perfectly, but the saving-throw spell is unbalanced against the caster!



 Nah, the area effect still deals half damage on a save, as opposed to *none* for a Ray.

Unless you're assuming Evasion?

Cheers, -- N


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 29, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Nah, the area effect still deals half damage on a save, as opposed to *none* for a Ray.
> 
> Unless you're assuming Evasion?
> 
> Cheers, -- N



 I'm not, but the half damage for Ref saves is something else entirely that I figured everyone was already counting (it needs to be integrated for all "failures" rather than for a critical "success").  This is usually balanced by the fact that hitting Touch AC is zounds easier than getting a baddy to fail a Ref save.  

Admittedly, the difference for the crit on the ray is _tiny_ and doesn't really matter at all here, but it does exist.


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## Infiniti2000 (Apr 29, 2008)

Grog said:
			
		

> Say you have a 15th level Wizard. For a 4th level slot, he can Empower a Scorching Ray and do 18d6 damage. Or, he can cast Polar Ray for an 8th level slot and do 15d6 damage.



  As pointed out earlier, keep in mind that the upside to polar ray vs. scorching ray is that a resist energy will entirely negate the empowered scorching ray (even at 7th level, resist 20 will negate all but 1 point each of an average-roll empowered scorching 3 rays).  15d6 with no save is nontrivial and there are plenty of ray feats (and others) to make it even more appealing (average roll 53).


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## Folly (Apr 29, 2008)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I'm not, but the half damage for Ref saves is something else entirely that I figured everyone was already counting (it needs to be integrated for all "failures" rather than for a critical "success").  This is usually balanced by the fact that hitting Touch AC is zounds easier than getting a baddy to fail a Ref save.
> 
> Admittedly, the difference for the crit on the ray is _tiny_ and doesn't really matter at all here, but it does exist.




Save vs Touch is a matter of encounter as I mentioned earlier. Not all bad guys have good reflex saves and not all bad guys have terrible touch ACs. Not to mention that if you can hit two enemies and both save you are still doing the same amount of damage. If you can get more enemies or some failed saves your doing better.


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## moritheil (May 2, 2008)

moritheil said:
			
		

> The opposite of "limited targets" is "affecting more targets;" your analysis is not inconsistent with mine, as far as I can tell.






			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> What's your analysis again?
> 
> -- N




I think I was referring to this:



			
				moritheil said:
			
		

> In most cases an augmented power still isn't as good as an actual power of a higher level (easier saves, *more restrictions*, or slightly smaller damage dice.)




The idea being that higher level powers have better targeting options.


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