# Use a free action after a charge?



## fissionessence (Feb 21, 2009)

The rules say a character is not allowed to take any more actions during their turn after charging. It also says free actions can be used any time, even during another player's or enemy's turn.

I couldn't find any examples of free actions that you'd want to use after a charge (other than something like talking, which a DM probably wouldn't think twice about), but suppose for the sake of discussion there were a power that was a free action that allows you to make a secondary attack after you hit with any melee attack.

If a character charged and hit, would you allow them to use this free action to use their secondary attack? If not, how/why do you distinguish this from another free action, such as speaking?

Or, perhaps, you feel such a power would never exist. If so, explain why, and how you suppose it might break the game.

~ fissionessence


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## Venator (Feb 21, 2009)

great question.

Also, how does charging interact with Action Point use?  Can a character charge and then use and Action Point?

I dont have the books or PDF's with me right now to scope out the Action Point rules...

Thanks guys.


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## fissionessence (Feb 21, 2009)

Venator said:


> Also, how does charging interact with Action Point use?  Can a character charge and then use and Action Point?




Actually, the charging rules specifically say you can't perform any more actions on your turn _unless you spend an action point_. So that part works fine 

Thanks for the reply! Sometimes I post theoretical rules questions to help design some classes I'm working on . . . hehe.

~


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## Black Knight Irios (Feb 21, 2009)

It depends on the wording of the free action, I say.

1: Bestial Armor (AV):
Bestial Armor has a Daily power you can *only *use after a succesful charge. It is a free action.

2: Flaming Weapon:
Has a Daily Power you can use after a hit with the weapon, again a free action.

Example 1 requires that you can use a free action after you charge, so I say specific trumps general. (Otherwise the power is useless).

Whereas example 2 has enough normal situations to be applied w/o trumping the general rule after a charge. I'd say you can't use it after a charge.

The question is, would it be gamebreaking to allow free actions after a charge? 
Even so the wording of the 'no further actions part of charge' is clear, is it intented to only prevent the usage of move and minor actions after a charge or all actions?


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## Smeelbo (Feb 21, 2009)

After a charge, I might want to use the power of a _Paired Weapon_ to uncombine, or the _Avalanche Hurler'_s utility _Quick-Draw Trick_, both of which are _Free Actions_. On the other hand, I could probably wait until the beginning of the next character's turn to do a _Free Action_, so mostly, it would make no difference.

*Smeelbo*


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## Kordeth (Feb 21, 2009)

Technically, this should follow the "specific beats general" rule.

General Rule: You can take free actions at any time, even on an opponent's turn.

Specific Rule: You cannot take any actions on your turn after a charge.

Even More Specific Rule: This power is a free action you can use after you charge.

So, by RAW, unless a power specifically says you can, you can't take free actions on your turn after a charge.


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## jedrious (Feb 21, 2009)

I do it this way, if you have a power that the charge triggers, like bestial armor, elemental weapons and whatnot you can use them as if they were triggered normally, other free actions you make after you make saving throws


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## Runestar (Feb 22, 2009)

If I used an action point after charging, could I use free actions, or am I limited to that 1 standard action?


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## dammitbiscuit (Feb 22, 2009)

It's a free action, which you're free to take on anyone's turn. If your DM is being a stickler and saying you can't take any more actions in your turn, simply resolve the effect while the next guy takes his turn.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Feb 22, 2009)

I don't think they were ESPECIALLY worried about free actions. I think they were more worried about combos where a PC would be able to charge and then use move actions or minor actions to back away again. The idea being that charging into battle shouldn't be some kind of 'hit and run' tactic that you use to get an attack bonus. It should commit you to duking it out with the enemy, at least for a round, and when you do it, its pretty much ALL you do that round.

Of course there are always ways for a party to develop the charging yo-yo tactic, but it will have to rely on other character's using their abilities to 'wind the yo-yo back in'.


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## Mort_Q (Feb 22, 2009)

Black Knight Irios said:


> 2: Flaming Weapon:
> Has a Daily Power you can use after a hit with the weapon, again a free action.
> 
> Whereas example 2 has enough normal situations to be applied w/o trumping the general rule after a charge. I'd say you can't use it after a charge.




If the trigger is "hit with a weapon" then it is part of the charge, i.e. the basic attack (or other if using a power that allows it).

Regardless, if charging ends your turn, but you can take free actions during another combatants turn, then there is no rule preventing you from taking a free actin after a charge.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Feb 22, 2009)

Mort_Q said:


> If the trigger is "hit with a weapon" then it is part of the charge, i.e. the basic attack (or other if using a power that allows it).
> 
> Regardless, if charging ends your turn, but you can take free actions during another combatants turn, then there is no rule preventing you from taking a free actin after a charge.




Yeah, except in the case of the flaming weapon the free action has to be taken IMMEDIATELY after you hit with the weapon. The only other consistent interpretation (and the most absolutely straightforward one) is that you can invoke the damage ANY time after you hit with the weapon, like what, 3 rounds later? Pretty obvious THAT wasn't the intended reading, so the intended reading is 'right after you roll to hit and damage' (ie it must be the NEXT action). At best you'd be stretching that a whole bunch if you say "well, the next action is in the next guy's turn." But that is exactly the interpretation you would need to invoke in order to make it work after a charge, unless the flaming weapon power says something about 'usable after a charge attack' specifically.

All that being said my instinct would be to allow those types of weapon power activations that follow the "as soon as the blow hits you can take a free action" on the basis of the mechanic representing the PC plunging his sword into the target and then it bursts into flame right then. Still, that is a ruling based on fluff, not game mechanics or balance. So take it for what its worth, it could open the doors to some sort of obnoxiously nasty combo or somesuch.


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## Mort_Q (Feb 23, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Yeah, except in the case of the flaming weapon the free action has to be taken IMMEDIATELY after you hit with the weapon.




Which is before you roll damage, which makes it part of the Charge.


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## gribble (Feb 23, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Yeah, except in the case of the flaming weapon the free action has to be taken IMMEDIATELY after you hit with the weapon.



Right. Note that the trigger is that you hit with the weapon, not deal damage with the weapon.
I.e.: charge is the *action*. It consists of the *steps*: move, make basic melee attack, apply damage and/or effects. You may not take any actions after you charge (i.e.: after you've applied damage and/or effects).

However, the free action in this case doesn't happen after the charge action, it is an reaction which happens during the charge action (after the _make basic melee attack_ step and before the _apply damage and effects step_). Technically, even these steps aren't atomic (for example, the move step actually consists of a number of discrete "move one square" sub-steps, each of which can be interrupted by an OA).

I guess arguably if something was a free action which triggered on "you deal damage", then you could get into the situation where the free action is taken after the charge action is resolved, but as others have pointed out free actions can be taken when it's not your turn, so I think the order in that case would be: charge action, attackers turn ends, attacker takes free action (triggered by damage dealt during previous charge action) during next combatants turn. Of course, then you get into the weird situation that end of turn effects may alter things such that it's no longer legal/possible for the attacker to trigger the free action...

It's possible what actually should happen is that the charge consist of the sub-steps: begin charge, move,  make basic melee attack, apply damage and effects, end charge.
And the players turn looks like: begin turn, <perform other actions>, charge, end turn. Then the free action could happen after _apply damage and effects_, but before _end charge_ rather than after _charge _and before _end turn_ (which is prohibited by the charge rules)...


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## AbdulAlhazred (Feb 24, 2009)

gribble said:


> Right. Note that the trigger is that you hit with the weapon, not deal damage with the weapon.
> I.e.: charge is the *action*. It consists of the *steps*: move, make basic melee attack, apply damage and/or effects. You may not take any actions after you charge (i.e.: after you've applied damage and/or effects).
> 
> However, the free action in this case doesn't happen after the charge action, it is an reaction which happens during the charge action (after the _make basic melee attack_ step and before the _apply damage and effects step_). Technically, even these steps aren't atomic (for example, the move step actually consists of a number of discrete "move one square" sub-steps, each of which can be interrupted by an OA).
> ...




Except the MTG trained rules lawyer in me (no, it was actually Star Fleet Battles training...) says that unless the action is an INTERRUPT it cannot happen WITHIN an action, so the charge action (the pcs standard action) must resolve first before another (free) action can take place. Except of course the flaming sword does have that funny wording about activating 'after you hit' which implies 'before you do damage'. Thus it would seem to be exceptioned into use in a charge after all. Yeah.

Well, it is all rather a lot of rules lawyering to get there, but it seems like it would be doable. Now there are probably other items that don't include all that exact wording?


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## gribble (Feb 24, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> unless the action is an INTERRUPT it cannot happen WITHIN an action, so the charge action (the pcs standard action) must resolve first before another (free) action can take place.



I can see where you're coming from, and agree it's ambiguous. The only thing I have to back up my POV is the weird wording on when free actions can be taken on some items/powers (which certainly imply that they can occur within another action).


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## Kordeth (Feb 24, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Except the MTG trained rules lawyer in me (no, it was actually Star Fleet Battles training...) says that unless the action is an INTERRUPT it cannot happen WITHIN an action




That's not correct. Only an interrupt can occur within an _opponent's_ (or any other character's) action, your own actions are under no such restrictions (see for example _elven accuracy_). In fact, since you can't take immediate actions on your turn (and only immediate actions can be interrupts), if your statement were correct it would be impossible to use any powers that affect your own actions (like the aforementioned _elven accuracy_) on your own turn.


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## Obryn (Feb 24, 2009)

fissionessence said:


> I couldn't find any examples of free actions that you'd want to use after a charge (other than something like talking, which a DM probably wouldn't think twice about), but suppose for the sake of discussion there were a power that was a free action that allows you to make a secondary attack after you hit with any melee attack.



I can think of one, from the Barbarian playtest:

Swift Charge, which is a Free Action Encounter Power.  If you drop an enemy to 0 HPs, you charge.

I'd personally allow this, but YMMV.

-O


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## Belares (Feb 27, 2009)

Obryn said:


> I can think of one, from the Barbarian playtest:
> 
> Swift Charge, which is a Free Action Encounter Power.  If you drop an enemy to 0 HPs, you charge.
> 
> ...




I have a barbarian in my game and he has used that power. It sounds overpowering but it is within the rules. He wowed us with over 40+ damage(daily rage power and uses executioner's axe) at level 2 which dropped the guy when he charged and critted then he used swift charge...sucked for me ...great for the group.


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## Tyken12 (Aug 21, 2009)

I actually have a case in which this problem is vitally important.
I play a "Jumper" build. It is a build that utilizes the Fighter feat Fey Charge (when you charge you may replace squares in the charge with your Fey Step racial power. If the charge hits, Fey Step is not expended). So the base Class is Fighter, but I decided to multiclass into Swordmage. This lets me take the feat Eladrin Swordmage Advance (When you use Fey Step to teleport adjacent to an enemy, you can make a Melee Basic Attack against that enemy as a FREE action). Catch the delema here? So I charge, replacing the squares of movement with my Fey Step power, then I should be able to use a free action to make a melee basic. I'm wondering whether I can make the "free-action melee basic" before the charge completes with its own melee basic (as part of the movement of the charge I used Fey Step, so the minute I reach my enemy I use a free action to attack it before the charge's melee basic actually resolves?)? It's a very confusing situation, and probably one of the few instances where this is truely a vital question. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion or other advice!


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## Mahali (Aug 21, 2009)

Tyken12 said:


> I'm wondering whether I can make the "free-action melee basic" before the charge completes with its own melee basic (as part of the movement of the charge I used Fey Step, so the minute I reach my enemy I use a free action to attack it before the charge's melee basic actually resolves?)? It's a very confusing situation, and probably one of the few instances where this is truely a vital question. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion or other advice!




Not in our game.  

Free actions, in general, are not written so as to allow them in the middle of other actions.  Some are specifically written to allow their use to modify actions/rolls before resolution.

Your action is "charge" and once you charge you can't take other actions (except by Action Point, which is specifically written to allow it).


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## Mort_Q (Aug 21, 2009)

More Necromancy!



Tyken12 said:


> I actually have a case in which this problem is vitally important.
> I play a "Jumper" build. It is a build that utilizes the Fighter feat Fey Charge (when you charge you may replace squares in the charge with your Fey Step racial power. If the charge hits, Fey Step is not expended). So the base Class is Fighter, but I decided to multiclass into Swordmage. This lets me take the feat Eladrin Swordmage Advance (When you use Fey Step to teleport adjacent to an enemy, you can make a Melee Basic Attack against that enemy as a FREE action). Catch the delema here? So I charge, replacing the squares of movement with my Fey Step power, then I should be able to use a free action to make a melee basic. I'm wondering whether I can make the "free-action melee basic" before the charge completes with its own melee basic (as part of the movement of the charge I used Fey Step, so the minute I reach my enemy I use a free action to attack it before the charge's melee basic actually resolves?)? It's a very confusing situation, and probably one of the few instances where this is truely a vital question. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion or other advice!




One is a Charge that uses Fey Step, and one is Fey Step (with no  +1).  They're not the same thing.  At least, that's how I'd solve the problem if I was your DM. 

That said, how many times can you hit AC in row with a basic melee attack?


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## Lucas Blackstone (Aug 21, 2009)

To be fair, taking free actions during a charge ( for instance using the flaming sword power ) is different then taking actions after a charge, which is what is actually forbidden.

Triggers seem to interrupt actions even though they aren't interrupts since they wouldn't work on your own turn ( Elven Accuracy is an example of such, it goes off in the midst of your own attack but isn't an interrupt because you can't perform immediate actions on your turn ). Since Swift Charge has a trigger involved it would suggest that it doesn't trigger AFTER the charge, but during the resolution.

There's plenty of room for guesswork and intpretation though.


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## Vael (Aug 21, 2009)

Triggerable free actions I'd allow after a charge ... so the Barbarian's Swift Charge would be allowed, but our group hasn't allowed our Warforged Warden to use Nature's Wrath after a charge.


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## TDarien (Aug 21, 2009)

I allow free actions after a charge, for the following reasons.

1. Using an action point is specifically allowed.  Using an action point is itself a free action (pg. 286).  This, in my opinion, sets a precedent.

2. Free actions are listed separately from the Standard, Move, and Minor actions (listed together as "Your Actions") in the "Actions on Your Turn" section (pg. 269)  I believe the "No further actions" clause of charging refers _only_ to the "Your actions" sub-heading.

3. It doesn't seem game-breaking in any way to allow them.

This is simply my interpretation of the intent of the rules.  I see the merit in arguments disallowing free actions after a charge, I just don't feel it is the intent of the rule to disallow free actions.


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## Mengu (Aug 21, 2009)

Depends on the trigger of the free action. Half-orc's can use Furious Assault on a hit as a free action. I see no reason to deny this with a charge attack. 

However, if a druid with Quick Wild Shape charges, and then wishes to wild shape as a free action after the charge, I would say no. The free action does not trigger from the charge action, and the charge action ends the druid's turn, so no free action quick wild shape at the end of a charge.

Another example would be, if you have boots of eagerness, which once per encounter gives you an additional move action during your turn, you would not be able to use this power after a charge, because again your turn ends, before you are able to use the necessary free action.

So in general, I'd say any free action power that says "during your turn" is not usable after a charge. Any power that triggers on a charge, hit, miss, damaging an enemy, bloodying an enemy, reducing an enemy to 0 HP, etc. will work after a charge. It would be silly for a thaneborn barbarian to not be able to use Roar of Triumph after taking down an opponent with a charge.


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## Ughman (Aug 21, 2009)

The most relevant rules case for this question (in my opinion) is wardens.  Wardens can mark 'as a free action during their turn' (paraphrasing) so it's a big deal if it's a yes or no for them.

For one, I believe the answer is no for that one, but there are definitely certain powers that are probably a yes (such as, say, the luckblade daily free action to reroll an attack.)

Mostly, I think free actions are one of the least well explained rules sections of 4e.  I don't think the devs have been totally consistent with dealing with them, so the reality is that's its just up to your DM.

This isn't as bad as some cases I've seen, where there have been powers that are immediate actions and seem to be designed to work on your turn. (Note: basic definitions of opportunity and immediate actions state that you can't do them on your turn.)

Meh.  I say employ common sense.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 21, 2009)

Ughman said:


> The most relevant rules case for this question (in my opinion) is wardens.  Wardens can mark 'as a free action during their turn' (paraphrasing) so it's a big deal if it's a yes or no for them.




Honestly I think some people are just DM's who want to screw over their wardens


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## Mengu (Aug 21, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> Honestly I think some people are just DM's who want to screw over their wardens




Or maybe they just like to play by the rules. Our warden in 5 levels has charged maybe 3-4 times, and when he has done so, it's usually into the midst of several enemies so it hardly matters if he marked them or not, they attack him anyway.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Aug 21, 2009)

Well, this topic came up quite a while back, and there have been extensive discussions on this topic over on gleemax. I think the most solid interpretation, which Mort_Q I think at least hinted at back at the start of this thread, is the "nested resolution" interpretation.

On PHB p269 is the "Making An Attack" box. It says "All attacks follow the same basic process:" and then lists 5 steps.

Step 5 is "Deal *damage* and apply other effects (page 276)."

Now, we know that many free actions have triggers. Some triggers are explicit, like the wizard utility level 2 spells Shield and Feather Fall. Other free actions have implicit triggers, like Elven Accuracy, but they logically still  MUST be triggered (or else we must accept that free actions can always happen in the midst of any other action at any time whatsoever). 

Thus the logical construction is that a free action which is triggered has to be resolved at that point in the attack resolution procedure on p269. This isn't exactly news to anyone, the game just plain won't work right unless this is true.

In the case of free actions which trigger on taking some other action, and not explicitly on a specific point in the resolution procedure, like the barbarian's Swift Charge, we thus have an explicitly or implicitly triggered action that needs to be resolved in order to complete the triggering action, that is the triggered actions are pretty obviously *nested within* the action that triggered them. If no other explicit point exists for this resolution, then step 5 "apply other effects" is the catch-all. 

So, in the case of Swift Charge you would trigger it at the start of step 5 "Deal damage" and it would resolve at the end of step 5, "apply other effects", which is *before the end of the charge action* and thus the "no  actions *after* a charge" rule has not yet come into effect. 

Alternately you simply have to believe that free actions are *all* able to be taken at any point within any other action and effectively the entire debate is moot. Of course in that case you will find there are a whole bunch of other bizarre things that suddenly become allowed, like wardens can mark halfway through their move action, etc. I don't know of any of these side effects that are game breaking, but it seems like it could be a pretty significant rules point and personally I'm not eager to open that can of worms.


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## Artoomis (Aug 21, 2009)

Tyken12 said:


> ...It is a build that utilizes the Fighter feat Fey Charge ... the feat Eladrin Swordmage Advance...




Analysis (with feats written out):

1. *Fey Charge:*  When you charge, you can use your fey step racial power as a free action to replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation. If the charge attack hits, you do not expend fey step.

2.  *Eladrin Swordmage Advance:*  When you use your fey step racial power to teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as a free action.

Reading these two together, the question becomes:

When using Fey Charge are you using "your fey step racial power to teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy?"  Since you "use your fey step racial power as a free action" during the charge then, in most cases, you could use Eladrin Swordmage Advance before the charge attack is resolved - in fact, if you use it, it *must* be used before the charge attack is resolved or it is too late to use it.  The exception being, for course, if you use Fey Charge but do not end up actually "teleport(ing) to a square adjacent to an enemy," which might very well happen.

This means you might use you fey step racial power in a charge, be successful with two attacks, and no have expended your use of the fey step power.

That's a really nice synergy, though it did cost a minimum of three feats to set it up (the two feats mentioned here plus at least one multiclass feat).


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## Flipguarder (Aug 21, 2009)

Mengu said:


> Or maybe they just like to play by the rules.



I think with the number of free actions from an item or feature that happen after a charge specifically gives at least room to debate that idea. Under the assumption that 'thems the rules" those items wouldn't work, because a charge ENDS your turn, they would need to be immediate reaction abilities.


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## Mengu (Aug 21, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> I think with the number of free actions from an item or feature that happen after a charge specifically gives at least room to debate that idea. Under the assumption that 'thems the rules" those items wouldn't work, because a charge ENDS your turn, they would need to be immediate reaction abilities.




Immediate reaction wouldn't work since you can't use immediate actions during your turn.

free action works based on the trigger, as I said earlier. If there is no trigger for the free action satisfied by any part of the resolution of the charge attack, and the action is worded such that you can only use it during your turn, then you can't use it after a charge.  Warden's mark is one such action (as are the two other free actions I gave as examples earlier, Quick Wild Shape, and Boots of Eagerness).


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## Flipguarder (Aug 21, 2009)

Mengu said:


> Immediate reaction wouldn't work since you can't use immediate actions during your turn.
> 
> free action works based on the trigger, as I said earlier.




This is the problem: free actions work on your turn, a charge ENDS your turn. It is the last thing that happens on a turn with a charge, unless you use an action point. Now if you have an item, power or feature that gives you a power that is a free action triggered on a charge, it cannot work unless you allow free actions on your turn, because otherwise you would be acting on a turn that is not yours, which would require an immediate or opportunity action. Because a charge ENDS your turn.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Aug 21, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> This is the problem: free actions work on your turn, a charge ENDS your turn. It is the last thing that happens on a turn with a charge, unless you use an action point. Now if you have an item, power or feature that gives you a power that is a free action triggered on a charge, it cannot work unless you allow free actions on your turn, because otherwise you would be acting on a turn that is not yours, which would require an immediate or opportunity action. Because a charge ENDS your turn.




There are two problems with this:

1) A charge doesn't end your turn. Granted, it forbids you to use additional actions afterwards, but your turn is not technically over. 

2) You can still resolve the entire issue if you resolve triggered actions at step 5 of the triggering action (or in many cases they will resolve in earlier steps anyway). See my last post for the logic involved. This interpretation actually deals with (I believe) *all* the issues surrounding charging and free actions. It also does so without assuming that any old free action can be used in the middle of other actions.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 21, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> There are two problems with this:
> 
> 1) A charge doesn't end your turn. Granted, it forbids you to use additional actions afterwards, but your turn is not technically over.




So your turn isn't over, but you can't take actions. Is it just me or is that kind of like saying, "I'm not done with school, but I've gone to all my classes and don't have any other school activities left." It's essentially speechcraft.

Although I see your point about resolving the action, a triggered action is part of the next action imo. Otherwise any free-action ability triggered by an attack is part of that attack. So Your second charge from swift charge is still part of the first charge. So you get two charges in a row.

I'm not saying this is definite, just that things are not as clear as you make them out to be.


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## Festivus (Aug 21, 2009)

dammitbiscuit said:


> It's a free action, which you're free to take on anyone's turn. If your DM is being a stickler and saying you can't take any more actions in your turn, simply resolve the effect while the next guy takes his turn.




But it could be important... particularly if you are talking about ongoing effects and the save that occurs at the end of your turn... that you take the free action before another person's turn and on your own turn.  What if you had been given a +2 to attack on your turn... and you have a free action to attack with?  You want to attack with that free action on your turn, not someone elses where you lose the +2.  I am sure there are more examples... but as a DM, I usually rule that unless it explicitly says "after a charge" on the free action, it doesn't happen on your turn.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 21, 2009)

Some of you guys don't read the rules, but make gigantic assumptions about them. I really don't understand your problem with free actions. The rule:







> *Free Action*
> 
> Free actions take almost no time or effort. You can take as many free actions as you want during your or another combatant’s turn. The DM can restrict the number of free actions in a turn. Examples: speaking a few sentences, dropping a held item, letting go of a grabbed enemy.



Can it get any simpler than that? The only restriction is the DM. He can call it quits when a PC is abusing them. the free attack during or after charge is certainly not an abuse.


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## Mort_Q (Aug 21, 2009)

Orcus Porkus said:


> the free attack during or after charge is certainly not an abuse.




People keep using the word _certainly_, when things obviously aren't _certain_, else we wouldn't have such long threads about them.

_After_ the charge is not allowed, as per the charge rules.



> After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take *any further actions* this turn




A free action is still an action.

During the charge is arguable.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 21, 2009)

Mort_Q said:


> People keep using the word _certainly_, when things obviously aren't _certain_, else we wouldn't have such long threads about them.
> 
> _After_ the charge is not allowed, as per the charge rules.
> 
> ...




then the free action simply takes place after the turn ends.
Taking away the free attack the PC rightfully earned is totally unpracticable and unfun. Any DM here who actually does that? I prefer common sense.


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## Mahali (Aug 22, 2009)

Orcus Porkus said:


> then the free action simply takes place after the turn ends.
> Taking away the free attack the PC rightfully earned is totally unpracticable and unfun. Any DM here who actually does that? I prefer common sense.




The free action can't take place after your turn ends.  What allowed you to use the free action?  That trigger that occured on your turn and your turn is over now.  Might as well take your free action next turn, after all it triggered before and it just wasn't used.

We don't allow it in our games.  We prefer common sense when it doesn't go against the rules.  The rules are that when you charge you're done taking actions on your turn.  _Certainly everyone can see that._


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## DracoSuave (Aug 22, 2009)

Um, no a Warden shouldn't be able to take his action to mark after the charge.  He's already getting two movements and an attack.  Good enough.

If it's a 'No Action' you can do it after the charge.  If it is not a No Action, you cannot.  It's really as simple as that:  Anything that denies actions denies free actions.


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## Jhaelen (Aug 22, 2009)

Mahali said:


> The rules are that when you charge you're done taking actions on your turn.  _Certainly everyone can see that._



Nope, that's wrong.
You can still take an action point after a charge allowing you to take any kind of action you want.


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## Pbartender (Aug 22, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> So your turn isn't over, but you can't take actions. Is it just me or is that kind of like saying, "I'm not done with school, but I've gone to all my classes and don't have any other school activities left." It's essentially speechcraft.




No, actually, it's a rather important distinction...

Your turn isn't over, and you can't take actions, but your enemies and allies still could, if they have any appropriate free actions available to them.  While I can't see it be a very common scenario, there could very well be times when it would make a difference for some other character to take a free action in the space between your charge and the end of your turn.



Orcus Porkus said:


> then the free action simply takes place after the turn ends.




That depends on the specific free action granted.  Some of these bonus free actions specify that they must occur on your your turn (specific overriding general).

Using the previously mentioned Nature's Wrath after a charge mark has come up several times in our game: it states, _"Once during each of your turns, you can mark each adjacent enemy as a free action."_ 

So, the Warden charges into the middle of a group of enemies and resolves his attack.  He cannot mark them, since the charge prevents him from taking any additional actions on his turn.  So, he ends his turn, and still can't mark because it's no longer his turn, even though normally you can take free actions outside your turn.


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## Pbartender (Aug 22, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> Nope, that's wrong.
> You can still take an action point after a charge allowing you to take any kind of action you want.




Correction:  You can spend an action point after a charge, since that isn't an action in of itself, but you cannot use the extra action it grants you.  Because you've charged, you cannot take any more actions that turn.


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## tiornys (Aug 22, 2009)

Pbartender said:


> Correction:  You can spend an action point after a charge, since that isn't an action in of itself, but you cannot use the extra action it grants you.  Because you've charged, you cannot take any more actions that turn.



So, I'll concede that it's possible to parse the relevant rules to get to this interpretation, but given that the text can also be parsed in two more liberal ways, I don't think it's valid to insist on this interpretation.



			
				PHB said:
			
		

> *No Further Actions:* After you resolve a charge attack, you can't take any further actions this turn, unless you spend an action point to take an extra action.



Spending an action point is a clear exception to the general rule that you can't take actions after a charge.  The text is ambiguous as to whether the exception lets you a) spend the action point but not benefit from the extra action, b) spend the action point and benefit from the extra action only, or c) spend the action point and lift the restriction on taking other actions entirely.  I think a) is the least intuitive interpretation, followed by c), with b) being almost certainly what was intended.  The corner cases where spending an action point would be relevant if you couldn't take the extra action don't justify creating the exception in the first place.

t~


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## Pbartender (Aug 22, 2009)

tiornys said:


> Spending an action point is a clear exception to the general rule that you can't take actions after a charge.




Yes, it is...  Forget the rest of your post.  I brain-farted that extra little bit, "unless you spend an action point to take an extra action", which is perfectly clear.

You guys are right about that one.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 22, 2009)

Mahali said:


> The free action can't take place after your turn ends.  What allowed you to use the free action?  That trigger that occured on your turn and your turn is over now.  Might as well take your free action next turn, after all it triggered before and it just wasn't used.
> 
> We don't allow it in our games.  We prefer common sense when it doesn't go against the rules.  The rules are that when you charge you're done taking actions on your turn.  _Certainly everyone can see that._




Where does it say in the rules that triggers for free actions have to take place outside your turn if you take the action outside your turn?

I say: The rules grant the barbarian the rampage attack, and swift charge. He earned those actions. Taking those away from him is a huge deal. It happens a lot, because barbarians charge a lot. You guys are basically invalidating half of those free attacks (the barbarian rightfully earned). You have two ways to justify that he gets these attacks despite the limiting charging rules: 1) Swift Charge and Rampage say so. You get the attacks - period. 2) The free action takes place after your turn is technically over. In limbo, or at the start of the next combatant's turn. Nothing game breaking, and only fair. As I said, nixing the barbarian's crucial class features is a really bad idea. Totally unfun!

Edit: Justification #3) The free action is "nested" inside the triggering action. It can't be separated from the trigger. In other words, the free action becomes part of the charge attack.


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## TDarien (Aug 22, 2009)

Here's the thing.  Spending an action point is itself a free action.  A non-triggered free action, to boot.  Now, yes, Charge does specifically say that spending an action point is allowed after the charge is completed, but doesn't this imply that other free actions are also allowed?  

Going on the premise that only free actions are allowed if they are triggered, you could take some free actions triggered by your extra action.  However, you couldn't use Elven Accuracy if you used your AP to take another attack, as this isn't a triggered action.  This doesn't seem right to me.

It just seems silly to me that the rules were intended to allow you to spend certain types of free actions, and not others.


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## urzafrank (Aug 22, 2009)

The way we play is pretty simple we that after a charge you lose any minor, move and standard actions you have left. So if you action point then charge bad times......the reason we chose this way is that without allowing free actions you cannot use the action point at all much less the action it generates. As the rules are quite unclear on this. We thought the was a simpler and more fun way to handle this rule. It also allows the use of any free action the can be used to gain another standard, move, or minor action to work as well.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 22, 2009)

TDarien said:


> It just seems silly to me that the rules were intended to allow you to spend certain types of free actions, and not others.




This. It's a major headache to do this. I think the term "free action" is in the rules so you have a type of action that has practically no limitations, like all the other types have, except for what the free action description says itself. The only other limitation is the DM's call.


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## Pbartender (Aug 22, 2009)

TDarien said:


> Here's the thing.  Spending an action point is itself a free action.




Not exactly.  Spending an action point is not a free action...  It's not an action of any kind at all.  It's a player decision that grants the character an extra action, which can specifically be taken after a charge unlike other actions.



Orcus Porkus said:


> This. It's a major headache to do this. I think the term "free action" is in the rules so you have a type of action that has practically no limitations, like all the other types have, except for what the free action description says itself. The only other limitation is the DM's call.




Yep...  the trouble here occurs when the free action stipulates limitations, such as, "as a free action on your turn" or "at the beginning of your turn as a free action" or "when an enemy moves adjacent to you".  Those specific limitations sometimes interact with other rules in a way that prevents you from using those free actions under certain circumstances.


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## tiornys (Aug 23, 2009)

Pbartender said:


> Not exactly.  Spending an action point is not a free action...  It's not an action of any kind at all.  It's a player decision that grants the character an extra action, which can specifically be taken after a charge unlike other actions.



I hate to keep correcting you, but spending an action point actually is a free action that you can only take during your turn--see PHB, p. 286.

That said, I agree that spending an action point is the only free action that you can take on your turn once you've completed a charge.  An exception that allows a specific type of free action to be taken in no way implies a blanket exception for free actions.

t~


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## AbdulAlhazred (Aug 23, 2009)

I still say you guys are all missing the main point with triggered free actions. They happen on step 5 of the attack which triggered them (or earlier in some cases). Thus they happen *before the charge has ended* and there is no action restriction in place at that point in time. So if a barb charges, hits, downs the enemy, gets another action due to that etc, then those are resolved and are perfectly legal, as would anything triggered by them in turn be legal. Once all *triggered actions* are done, step 5 of the charge completes and thats it, you can't do anything more except burn an AP (which is obviously a straightforward except to "no more actions" I mean come on, stop abusing English). 

This satisfies everyone. Nobody gets rooked out of a triggered action, *and* you can't expend actions once the charge is done, even free ones. It is 100% compatible with RAW and works fine.

As for resolving triggered actions after you end your turn? That's absurd. Anything that happens in your turn or as a consequence of anything else in your turn has to be resolved immediately. That's how the action mechanics obviously are designed to work. Maybe all of this is not so obvious to everyone, but it is exactly how any software engineer or programmer would understand the whole system working. You trigger something, its just stacked onto what your doing already and you can't save up things to do later in another turn (which is a whole other context). I mean I could write out the whole thing in formal notation, but it just isn't necessary (and how many people would understand it, lol).


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## TDarien (Aug 23, 2009)

Pbartender said:


> Not exactly.  Spending an action point is not a free action...  It's not an action of any kind at all.  It's a player decision that grants the character an extra action, which can specifically be taken after a charge unlike other actions.




Actually, you're wrong.


			
				PH1 pg. 286 said:
			
		

> SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION
> 
> During your turn: You can spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise round.
> 
> ...




I think another contributing factor to the issue is the fact that free actions are listed separately from "your actions" on PH1 PG. 269.  There is, I think, a valid argument, that "No further actions" refers only to those listed under "Your actions" in that same rules block, "Actions on your Turn".  Because they're listed seperately from Standard, Move, and Minor actions, they should be handled differently, and don't actually count as "Actions" in the strictest sense.  This wouldn't be the first time that WotC used poor word choice in the rules text.


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## Pbartender (Aug 23, 2009)

tiornys said:


> I hate to keep correcting you, but spending an action point actually is a free action that you can only take during your turn--see PHB, p. 286.




No worries...  I rather be corrected in a firendly way, than continue being wrong and think I still right.

I must be blind this week.  

Usually I'm better at this game.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 23, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> I still say you guys are all missing the main point with triggered free actions. They happen on step 5 of the attack which triggered them (or earlier in some cases). Thus they happen *before the charge has ended* and there is no action restriction in place at that point in time. So if a barb charges, hits, downs the enemy, gets another action due to that etc, then those are resolved and are perfectly legal, as would anything triggered by them in turn be legal. Once all *triggered actions* are done, step 5 of the charge completes and thats it, you can't do anything more except burn an AP (which is obviously a straightforward except to "no more actions" I mean come on, stop abusing English).
> 
> This satisfies everyone. Nobody gets rooked out of a triggered action, *and* you can't expend actions once the charge is done, even free ones. It is 100% compatible with RAW and works fine.




this is exactly how almost all groups play it. I've played with a lot of DM's in the NYC meetup, and none of them ever denied a barbarian his free attacks triggered during a charge. There was not even a discussion about it!


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## DracoSuave (Aug 23, 2009)

TDarien said:


> Because they're listed seperately from Standard, Move, and Minor actions, they should be handled differently, and don't actually count as "Actions" in the strictest sense.  This wouldn't be the first time that WotC used poor word choice in the rules text.




Yes, they DO count as actions in the strictest sense.  They just don't have restrictions on them like other actions.  So you can take multiples in a turn, on other people's turn, etc.  Every other action type is restricted in some way; that doesn't make free actions non-actions.

And if you cannot take actions, you cannot take free actions.

It's that simple.

What you're looking for is a 'No Action' power.  Those things CAN be used after a charge because those powers are -explicitly- not an action to use. 

So, charge says 'You take no actions, except spending an action point' which implies you get to take that action point's action.  That means free actions cannot be taken. 

You also can't take free actions if you are unconscious.  It's -that simple-.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 23, 2009)

DracoSuave said:


> Yes, they DO count as actions in the strictest sense.  They just don't have restrictions on them like other actions.  So you can take multiples in a turn, on other people's turn, etc.  Every other action type is restricted in some way; that doesn't make free actions non-actions.
> 
> And if you cannot take actions, you cannot take free actions.
> 
> ...




If you combine this post with Abdul's concerning charging not being finished if there are free actions to be finished ON a charge, I would have an incredibly hard time arguing against that combined view of the current issue(s).


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## DracoSuave (Aug 23, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> If you combine this post with Abdul's concerning charging not being finished if there are free actions to be finished ON a charge, I would have an incredibly hard time arguing against that combined view of the current issue(s).




Oh yes, if you have free actions during the charge itself (and that includes the attack and damage resolution) then by all means, use them.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 23, 2009)

DracoSuave said:


> Oh yes, if you have free actions during the charge itself (and that includes the attack and damage resolution) then by all means, use them.




I agree but how far does that go? Specifically asking about swift charge.







> Swift Charge Barbarian Feature
> As your foe falls, you rush toward your next victim.
> Encounter ✦ Primal
> Free Action Personal
> ...


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## AbdulAlhazred (Aug 23, 2009)

Swift Charge would be fine. And by my interpretation if you triggered yet another thing during the swift charge itself, you could do that too (since it would resolve before SC resolves which in turn has to resolve before the original charge resolves, etc). I guess you could probably work up some example which combined multiple triggered actions on the original charge and the first one was a Swift Charge and then you could start wondering about exactly what is allowed to happen next. Ones head could explode due to over analysis as well.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 23, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Swift Charge would be fine. And by my interpretation if you triggered yet another thing during the swift charge itself, you could do that too (since it would resolve before SC resolves which in turn has to resolve before the original charge resolves, etc). I guess you could probably work up some example which combined multiple triggered actions on the original charge and the first one was a Swift Charge and then you could start wondering about exactly what is allowed to happen next. Ones head could explode due to over analysis as well.




I have a huge problem with a barbarian stacking 80 things on top of a charge and refusing to let me mark after a charge. I understand the logic of it, but AT MOST, a charge gets one triggered free action on it when I DM.


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## jeffhartsell (Aug 23, 2009)

Free actions I don't think are immediate interrupt actions, so you have to resolve the triggering action. As such, if a barbarian reduced a foe to 0 with a charge, no other actions (other than via an action point) can be taken, thus no swift charge. Same goes for the warden marking as a free action.

This gets tricky if you had a free action that triggered on a hit or on damage. In that case you could trigger the action during the charge and it will resolve after you resolve the charge.

A foe being reduced to zero is the result of the charge action, and a barbarian can't take any non-action point actions at that point.

I wonder how this works if you use an action point to charge at the begining of your turn? Does an action point charge end your turn?


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 24, 2009)

jeffhartsell said:


> Free actions I don't think are immediate interrupt actions, so you have to resolve the triggering action. As such, if a barbarian reduced a foe to 0 with a charge, no other actions (other than via an action point) can be taken, thus no swift charge. Same goes for the warden marking as a free action.
> 
> This gets tricky if you had a free action that triggered on a hit or on damage. In that case you could trigger the action during the charge and it will resolve after you resolve the charge.
> 
> ...




1) the triggered action MUST take place. It was triggered, and it's nested inside the triggering action. Nothing can take the free action away from the barbarian.

2) It's free (can take place at any time) and it's triggered, which means it WILL go off - it's not like a dud or something. Show me the rule that makes triggered actions a dud. The wording of "no action after a charge" is superseded by the fact that free actions can take place at any time, and that the triggered action is mandated to take place by the rules. It's not the players choice to have the attack. The rules require it.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 24, 2009)

Orcus Porkus said:


> 1) the triggered action MUST take place. It was triggered, and it's nested inside the triggering action. Nothing can take the free action away from the barbarian.



Except being dazed, stunned or unconscious. Personally I believe "no actions can take place" falls in this category


Orcus Porkus said:


> The wording of "no action after a charge" is superseded by the fact that free actions can take place at any time, and that the triggered action is mandated to take place by the rules. It's not the players choice to have the attack. The rules require it.




You act as though the DM is mandated by the rules, which is just never true. Anyway, I am of the opinion that it's the other way around in this situation. The fact that the free action is triggered is superseded by the fact that you can't take actions after a charge.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 24, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> Except being dazed, stunned or unconscious. Personally I believe "no actions can take place" falls in this category




show me the rule


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## Flipguarder (Aug 24, 2009)

> STUNNED (PHB 277)
> ✦ You grant combat advantage.
> ✦ *You can’t take actions.*
> ✦ You can’t flank an enemy.





> UNCONSCIOUS (PHB 277)
> ✦ You’re helpless.
> ✦ You take a –5 penalty to all defenses.
> *✦ You can’t take actions.*
> ...





> CHARGE: STANDARD ACTION (PHB 287-288)
> ✦ Move and Attack: Move your speed as part of the
> charge and make a melee basic attack or a bull rush
> at the end of your move.
> ...



Turns out I was wrong about dazed... oh well. the point still stands.

I suppose the thing you will argue against is that there is a difference between "you can't take any further actions" and "no actions can take place". That's a fair point. But at the end of the day, if it meant you couldn't take any actions except free actions it would say so, like it does in the dazed description, not just allow for action points and mention nothing else. I think that using "action points" to allow for "free actions" by making them synonymous is far-fetched.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 24, 2009)

[never mind]


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## Flipguarder (Aug 24, 2009)

[deleted]


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## AbdulAlhazred (Aug 24, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> I have a huge problem with a barbarian stacking 80 things on top of a charge and refusing to let me mark after a charge. I understand the logic of it, but AT MOST, a charge gets one triggered free action on it when I DM.




Well, the DM is always free to decide under what conditions a player is allowed to take a free action. However I would be careful to make sure you explain to the people playing in your game that you aren't going to allow barbarians to do stuff that any experienced player building a barbarian will expect to be able to do and will probably build their character around doing.



jeffhartsell said:


> Free actions I don't think are immediate interrupt actions, so you have to resolve the triggering action. As such, if a barbarian reduced a foe to 0 with a charge, no other actions (other than via an action point) can be taken, thus no swift charge. Same goes for the warden marking as a free action.
> 
> This gets tricky if you had a free action that triggered on a hit or on damage. In that case you could trigger the action during the charge and it will resolve after you resolve the charge.
> 
> ...




Except this entire theory of yours instantly runs into a giant iceburg and joins the Titanic as soon as you actually examine the rules carefully. Free Actions absolutely DO come within other actions. How else can things like Elven Accuracy work? Read the rule on PHB p269 and you can see that making an attack is a process which includes a number of steps, any one of which can trigger free actions which are resolved immediately. Any that haven't been resolved by the "deal damage" process of step 5 are then resolved by the "apply other effects" process of step 5 (the very last thing in the resolution process). Since we have already *inarguably* determined that free actions happen during other actions when they are triggered then your whole argument simply falls apart. 

Just because triggered free actions are not called immediate interrupts does not stop them from interrupting other things. It simply means they don't follow the particular rules specific to immediate actions. There are a number of reasons why this is true. For one thing immediate actions cannot happen during a player's own turn (it would create various infinite loop situations) and further they have restrictions on how many of them can be used in a given period of time (1 immediate per player turn). Those limitations were put in place to restrict players ability to do things outside their own turn, but free actions are designed to work in all the situations where immediate actions don't. Thus some things need to be triggered free actions in order to be useful and work with the rest of the rules, and many of those actions MUST occur within other actions to work.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 24, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> Explain to me why that's relevant. I was grouping the end of a charge with stunned an unconscious because all three say "you can't take actions", not because one leads to another.




yes, I wasn't thinking


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## Flipguarder (Aug 24, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Well, the DM is always free to decide under what conditions a player is allowed to take a free action. However I would be careful to make sure you explain to the people playing in your game that you aren't going to allow barbarians to do stuff that any experienced player building a barbarian will expect to be able to do and will probably build their character around doing.




I have a method of dealing with that type of thing. If he uses two or more actions after a charge (or simply goes against something I don't think is right, or violates a houserule I have neglected to mention), I let him for the remainder of the current session. Then, I ask him to re-work his character to fit my rules, then if he decides on bigger changes for his character then we work together on how to fit that into the story. It's worked out so far.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 24, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Well, the DM is always free to decide under what conditions a player is allowed to take a free action. However I would be careful to make sure you explain to the people playing in your game that you aren't going to allow barbarians to do stuff that any experienced player building a barbarian will expect to be able to do and will probably build their character around doing.




exactly. I was referring earlier to a dud. By disallowing those free actions, you'll have a barbarian in the group who constantly fires duds. It will happen a lot. Crits and kills on a charge? I stopped counting. So the barbarian has these great fun features, but no, the DM always says, you can't do it. Dud! That's so frustrating, I would definitely stop playing barbarians. This can't possibly be the intention of the rules! Particularly since there are good ways to always allow free actions that are triggered.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 24, 2009)

Orcus Porkus said:


> exactly. I was referring earlier to a dud. By disallowing those free actions, you'll have a barbarian in the group who constantly fires duds. It will happen a lot. Crits and kills on a charge? I stopped counting. So the barbarian has these great fun features, but no, the DM always says, you can't do it. Dud! That's so frustrating, I would definitely stop playing barbarians. This can't possibly be the intention of the rules! Particularly since there are good ways to always allow free actions that are triggered.




I can understand your frustration while playing a barbarian under my rules. But not even close to the majority of barbarian powers are charges. You'd need to build a very specific character to be charging ALL the time. Only 6 (i may have miscounted, it may be 7) powers out of all of the barbarian class powers can be used as charges. That's up to level 30, includes dailies and 1 at will.


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## Artoomis (Aug 24, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> ... Free Actions absolutely DO come within other actions. How else can things like Elven Accuracy work? Read the rule on PHB p269 and you can see that making an attack is a process which includes a number of steps, any one of which can trigger free actions which are resolved immediately. Any that haven't been resolved by the "deal damage" process of step 5 are then resolved by the "apply other effects" process of step 5 (the very last thing in the resolution process)...




Right.  Because of this, virtually any appropriate free action can be done in conjunction with a Charge but not with conditions that disallow all actions.

Thus the barbarians ability to get another charge (free action when opponent gets damaged down to zero) both makes sense and is allowed.

Technically, these free actions happen in conjunction with the charge, not after it, even though it may appear to be after.


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## Juttasolo (Aug 25, 2009)

So, from everything that people have posted regarding a charge / free actions, I take it this fighter power combination would be acceptable?:

Level 1 at will fighter power - Knockdown assault
Special: When charging, you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack.

plus

Level 3 encounter fighter power - Shield Slam (free action)
Trigger: You hit an enemy with a melee attack.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 25, 2009)

Nice find. Since it's a free action, it absolutely triggers. The power is designed to work as a fine follow up attack for shield fighters. All it does is push the target and knock it prone. Makes total sense too after a charge. Once per encounter... it adds fun to the game. Now show me the fighter who takes this over Sweeping Blow or Rain of Blows.


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## Samir (Aug 25, 2009)

After reading this thread, I've learned 2 things.

1) RAW, you can't take free actions after a charge.
2) Any good DM will allow free actions after a charge (within reasonable limits).

And yes, I know #2 is no-true-scotsman, but I think a good DM would be willing to modify unnecessary limitations in the interest of fun and realism.

Keep in mind that the DMG rules for Overland Flight mandate that if something using overland flight moves during its turn "takes actions to do anything else, it crashes." So apparently talking while you're overland flying causes you to hurtle into the ground. (Without DM intervention, that is.)

Point being, this is one of those area where a good DM will step in determine what would be reasonable. I'm pretty sure that's within the general intent of 4e's design principles, if not the exact letter of the rules.


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## Juttasolo (Aug 25, 2009)

Actually, my fighter does.  As a defender build (sword & board) I felt it was more important for the flavour of the character to take powers that emphasized the use of the shield - shield bash & shield slam.   Between those two and knockdown assault, my fighter is usually refered to as the school yard bully by one players in our group - pushing people over and taking their lunch money.


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## DracoSuave (Aug 25, 2009)

Actually I don't tend to let Barbarians charge after a charge.  While I appreciate they are good at charging, they're restricted to the one charge per round, same as anyone else.  They -do- however, get their bonus charge after -other- attacks anyways.

Not -every- attack a Barbarian does is a charge, in fact most aren't.  So it doesn't unduly hurt the barbarian if I don't like him put a charge in his charge so he can move while he moves.


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## Anand (Aug 25, 2009)

I guess the disadvantage of charging is losing your actions. You get +1 to hit, and you move + attack. If the barbarian wants to use his encounter, all he have to do is move and attack.

I also don't allow my warden PC to mark after charging, and he usually just walks next to the monsters.


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## SigmaX0 (Aug 26, 2009)

This wasn't even an issue in my group, it was assumed that any free action could be used after a charge, since you can use free actions at any point, even on someone else's turn.

My rationale is thus: why are you not allowed to move after a charge? As a charge is both an attack and a move, it is unique in that you could move in, attack and then still have a move action left to move *out *again and get safe.

This is the important distinction for me.  The paragon feat (I think in MP) allowing you to take actions after a charge I see as the equivalent of the 3E swift attack (or whatever it was called, move in, attack and move out).

I think the restriction on charging is to stop this kind of abuse, not to limit a pretty fundamental aspect of the Barbarian over what can only be described as a very tenuous case of general vs specific.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 26, 2009)

Here is another free action that can trigger on a charge attack in my book:



> *Spur the Cycle*
> 
> _Just as in the natural world, death leads to new life: killing your foe spurs you to further action._
> *Daily*
> ...




Overpowered? No. Fun? Yes.


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## Prestidigitalis (Aug 27, 2009)

This won't help resolve the debate, but I believe the core of the problem is that the WotC designers did not set down hard and fast rules about the difference between Free Action, No Action and "not even a No Action", or else did not communicate them well.  (Examples of "not even a No Action" are things like the Rageblood Vigor Barbarian's bonus Temporary Hit Points after knocking an opponent to 0 hit points).  

The way _I_ think of them is this: 

Free Actions take a tiny amount of time (say, 1/4 second) or else they cause events around them to slow down for dramatic purposes (e.g., while you are shouting "Surrender!" to your foes, everyone else is distracted and holds their blows.)

No Actions take no time.  None.  Not even a thought is required.  It's not an action so much as "the roll of the dice lied" (Elven Accuracy) or of the player telling the DM "No, THIS is what REALLY happened".  [It is my belief that use of Action Points should be in this category, with the continued caveat of using them only on your own turn.]

Not even a No Action: just a consequence of the triggering event.  No decisions involved by character or player.

Now, that's just my interpretation.  But it's pretty clear that whatever scheme the designers came up with, it did not propagate through the product evenly.

Note: I saw the same thing in 3.x, where the designers quasi-randomly talked about extra-dimensional space, non-dimensional space, etc. without ever defining what they were, how they differed, and how they interacted.  It's almost as if they treated all the different versions of "blah-dimensional space" as synonymous terms chosen for literary effect.


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