# [GUIDE] Born to be Wild, a sorcerer guide.



## mellored

_If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough._

[sblock=color code]
Goldenrod: A truely stand out option.
Cyan: A top choice.
Blue: A good choice.
Black (no color): Passible, but not special.
Violet: Situation, most of the time you should pass on this, but there are corner cases that can really make this good.
Red: Grade F, avoid. At best you just wasted your choice, but it might actually hurt you.
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*Pros*
Best buffer in the game with twinned metamagic bypassing concentration.
Great novas.
Ability and unique ways to use spells.
Possibly the strongest class at high levels, since it can sacrificing low level slots for SP.
Dominates on short days.

*Cons*
Limited number of known spells, can be a bit spammy.
No rituals, hurts their overall utility.
Weak at low levels, with very few sorcerer points.
Doesn’t have the stamina for long days.

*Stats:*
Str: You are your own weapon, so you never learned to swing a maul. Multi-classing should look at dex and booming blade, which scales by character level.
Con: Good for everyone, but more so for sorcerer's who have a lot of concentration spells. If you're focused on buffing, this is more important than Cha.
Dex:you're have no armor, not even light, so you want this. Going first is also a rather important. Can also use booming blade.
Int: Nope.
Wis: Any leftover points go here so you don’t get charmed as easily.
Cha: Only affects your spell DC's, which is very important for control spells, less so for half-damage-on-miss spells, and not at all for buffs.

*Races*: Anything that boosts Cha/Dex/Con, which makes half-elf an obvious choice. Otherwise you are looking for defensive and/or utility features, such as the mobility offered by a winged tiefling, THP from a Variant Human with inspiring leader, or possibly the save bonus from gnomes. If your party lacks a front line, mountain dwarf’s armor can be great, more so for wild who likes to move a bit closer to the fray, or just dip for it.

*Feature*:
Con/Cha saves: Con saves really help you hold onto your concentration. Cha is probably the worst, with near nothing using it.

Spell Casting: Full spells takes up most of the sorcerer's power budget. The number of spells you know are very limited, only knowing 1-2 of each spell level. So choose wisely, and make sure it meshes with your metamagic. You can’t twin burning hands or empower feather fall.

Font of Magic: Pretty useless when you get it, but as you level you want to sacrifice your low level spells for SP, allowing you to empower your high level ones. Just note that you lose points when you convert, and you might need a level 1 slot for something, so don’t rush to use it.

Metamagic: Finally, after 2 short levels of being a crappy wizard, you get access to the wizard subclass thing that really make a sorcerer a sorcerer. You only have 2 for most of your levels, so choose carefully.



Twinned (1-9SP): Double a spell’s effect. Great for both controls spells like suggestion and buffs like greater invisibility. A bit pricey for high level spells like finger of death. Cheaper than a quickened firebolt.
Careful (1SP): For AoE control spells, particularly zones (web, stinking cloud) since the protection last the entire durration. Also can be helpful for some blasting (fireball). Good when you have a front line that likes to run in and get surrounded, or as a wild sorcerer who does the same. These tend to take concentration, as do twinned buffs, so you might not want both careful and twinned.
Subtle (1SP): An underrated metamagic, that's great for ambushes and RP opportunities. Particularly if you have stealth (prodigy feat). Sneak up on an enemy, and drop a non-flashy spell (cloud of daggers, circle of death, enemies abound, immolation, etc..) without breaking hidden. Forcing them to waste their actions searching for you while they take damage. Or go with a major image and control it while standing in the middle of a crowd. It can also be used to prevent counterspell and ignore silence.
Quicken (2SP): Using 2SP for an extra xd10 firebolt is a bit on the pricey side especially at low levels. But it can also use your action to disengage, dodge, dash, hide, help, use the healer feat, or anything else that takes an action, which can be a life saver. Better for multclassing, since you can make a quicken+multiattack, or agonising blast, though even then you might want it as your third pick, when eldrich blast has scaled.
Empowered (1SP): Not a good choice at level 3, but a possible pick up at 10 or 17, as you get more AoE damage. Improving as you roll more dice, but it still cost 1 SP. Slightly better for damage per SP than quicken firebolts since this can’t miss, but lacks quickens overall versatility. It’s also the only metamagic that can stack, for a twinned empowered finger of death.
Heightened (3SP): A bit pricey, but it greatly increases the chance of a control spell sticking, but only 1 roll on 1 target. Not the whole group you cast hypnotic pattern, or second rolls at hold person. Though that does leave suggestion, levitate, disintegrate, and banishment. And the cost doesn't scale like Twinned.
Extended (1SP): It’s hard to make good use of this in most scenarios. As 1 minute spell are usually long enough for 1 battle, but 2 minutes won’t be long enough for 2. Though doubling a 10-minute spell might be good for a dungeon crawl where enemies are relatively close. One big exception is if you manage to get aura of vitality, since that gives most of its benefits out of battle.
Distant (1 SP): It’s really hard to justify this in one of your precious metamagic slot, even if your DM really favors open space.

Sorcerer Restoration: 40% more SP (with 2 short rests), is a good reason to stay a full sorcerer 20.



Origins:
Draconic: The defensive option, with simple, but useful, passive abilities. Better in parties with less of a front line and less healing, also just flat better than wild at lower levels. Fire is the clear winner, with others being a bit short on spell choice.
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Draconic Resilience: A solid boost to defense, which really helps sure up your weaknesses.
Elemental Affinity: A big damage boost at this level, especially for AoE spells, though it doesn’t scale. Non-fire elements can be seriously lacking in spells, so ask your DM if you can switch damage types (i.e. firebolt-> frostbolt). Resistance is hard to use, since you need to cast a fire spell to get fire resist, and enemies who throw fire at you will generally resist your spell. Though it lasts an hour without concentration, so it can be helpful if you know your enemy in advance, such as tossing a fire bolt before you enter a red dragon cave.
Dragon Wings: Flying has some good utility can keep you safe from melee. Just avoid going too high. Also, make sure you have feather fall.
Draconic Presence: A bigger version of fear + careful metamagic, which is not a bad way to start off a battle, but not necessarily the best use of SP either.
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Wild: The offensive option with a lot of free, if random, spells. Only occasionally in an unfriendly way. I’m rating under the assumption that the DM will play along and surge all the time, if he never surges, half this sub-class features are useless (bend luck is great, but not enough). The wild has extra quadratic scaling, since the more spells you cast, the more free surges you get, making it even more powerful at higher levels.
Better in parties who have good defense/support, in particular with a paladin 6 who boosts saving throws, or a life cleric that can help recover from bad luck.
[sblock]
A few notes about surges.


Most of the time it helps (46% Good, 18% Mixed, 14% Bad, 22% RP/Neutral).
Being close to enemies and away from allies boosts your odds of getting something good, but only a little (~6%). Helpful, but not worth dying over.
It’s not an action, slot, SP cost, or anything else. Just a completely free effect.
They happen AFTER you cast the spell. No risk of silencing your spell. Though you could possibly disrupt your concentration.
No metamagic. Careful won’t help.
They are not concentrate. So they won’t stop your twinned haste, but you also can’t end them early.
Make sure your allies know to punch you if you turn into a sheep, and protect you if you turn into a pot. Neither will break concentration.

Magic Surge: A very low chance of anything happening, particularly at low levels when you only have a few slots per day. Even at high levels, this might only happen once per day.

Tides of Chaos: Advantage on lots of things. Don't spam this at low level as bad surge could TPK your party until level 5 or so. Becomes amazing with controlled chaos, with a massive amount of advantage and also a massive amount of free effects.

Bend Luck: A versatile ability with great range and capable of both helping and hindering, and unlikely to be wasted. Best used for saving throws for control spells, like suggestion, though an assassin would also appreciate you helping her land her attack, or to finish off the big bad. Sorcerers aren't likely to have many competing reactions, except shield.

Controlled Chaos: Improves your surges, and nearly eliminates the chances of a bad one. 71% good, 27% mixed/RP (your choice), 2% bad. So go wild.

Spell Bombardment: A minimal damage boost at this level, about 3 damage. Fireball (+2.7), Finger of death (+2.7), fire storm (+2.8), chain lightning (+3.3), meteor swarm(+3.4). At least it works for any spell, and once per turn (not round). So it works a bit better for repeate and off-turn damage spells, like firewall (+4.4) or vitriolic sphere (+4.4). It has some synergy with empowered metamagic, but that only increases it to about +3.8 damage per spell.
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Storm: Extra mobility and damage, but close range effects aren't the best for squishy sorcerers. Make sure to get some defense, (Con, Inspiring Leader, Mirror Image, Stone Skin, Mountain Dwarf, Tortle, dipping Cleric or Fighter 1) and possibly an ally healer to back you up. Cha matters a bit less with 1/2 damage spells and the auto-damage feature, so you have some room.
[sblock]
Wind Speaker: Not much.
Tempestuous Magic: Some extra mobility is helpful, particularly with Heart of the Storm. Though it competes with quicken.

Heart of the storm: Short range and a limited-but-not-bad spell selection makes this difficult to use well on a squishy caster. At least you're rewarded with good scaling damage if you can manage to pull it off. Note that the damage is independent of spell level, so a level 1 thunderwave is still useful at level 20, though still might be worth scrapping for the SP.
Storm guide: Nice for a freebie.

Storms fury: Good damage that almost makes you want to be hit. Best used with resistance (quicken+blade ward) and THP (inspiring leader).

Wind soul: Great utility that you can share.
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Divine Soul: Acces to a few choice cleric spells. Though each one you take is one less sorcerer spell, and you don't have much room. So it's not quite as good as it seems.
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Divine Magic: 1 known additional spell. And let's you _get clerics spells in place of sorcerer spells, not additiona to.  _, sorcerer spells with cleric spells. Good choices include guidance (cantrip), 1 or 2 heal spells, command, bless (until you get greater invisibility), conjure celestial (extend), revivify (can be twinned), and spiritual weapon (no concentration). Possibly spiritual guardian if you get armor.  Though that list is 7-8 of your 16 known spells.  There isn't much else that clerics do better than sorcerers.
Favored by the Gods: Nice boost.

Empowered Healing: Few healings spell roll lots of dice. So this won't add much. But it can be nice if you roll a bunch of 1's.

Otherworldly Wings: Flying is nice.

Unearthly Recovery: Some extra HP.
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Shadow Magic: Nice mix of defense and control. Darkvision makes variant humans the defacto shadow sorcerer.
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Eyes of the Dark: Disadvantage to be hit, and advantage for firebolts is a strong start. Though you can't quicken this, so the action cost keeps it down. Later levels you're usually better off concentrating on something else to help allies (twin greater invisibility).
Strength of the Grave: Not dying is good, but it's not very reliable, particularly at higher levels.

Hound of Ill Omen: A better heightened plus a conjure animal. Not only does it work each round of hold person, the wolf can dish out a modest amount of damage (17 with a crit) as well as take a some hits (though possibly only 1 at higher level). Note that you can have multiple hounds at once.

Shadow Walk: Huge distance lets you cast and run. Use minor illusion to set up places of dim light.

Umbriel Form: Powerful, but expensive. So it won't see too much use.
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## mellored

© = concentration
ⓣ = twinnable

*Cantrips*: You start with a solid 4 cantrips, going up to 6. Plenty of room here at least. I suggest 2-3 attack spells, and the rest can go to utility.
[sblock=cantrips]
ⓣFire Bolt: Good range and damage makes this the go-to cantrip.
Minor Illusion: Lots of uses.
Prestidigitation: Lots of uses.

Acid Splash: A pseudo-AoE without needing to be twinned. Scales well with 2 targets.
Blade Ward: Good to help keep concentration, also works nicely with quicken.
ⓣBooming Blade: A nice melee option if you have decent Dex or a magical weapon. You can quicken + disengage, or use greater invisibility, and other such tricks, to get the extra damage.
ⓣLight: Useful.
Mage Hand: Useful.
ⓣRay of Frost: Reducing movement can keep you safe.
ⓣShocking Grasp: Good for getting out of melee.

ⓣChill Touch: Less damage than firebolt, and there aren't many creatures that regain HP.  But at least it's a different damage type.
©Create bonfire: Low levels this is a nice area denial, gives your allies a place to push enemies into, and as well as an alternative Dex save which can be used in melee, but as you level, you will have more important things to concentrate on.
ⓣFriends: Almost more use to piss someone off than persuade them.
ⓣFrostbite: Pretty good at low levels. But doesn't scale with monster's multi-attack.
Green Flameblade: The other weapon cantrip. But you can't twin this, and you will generally have an AoE option.
Mending: Some uses
ⓣMessage: Some uses
Mold Earth: Some uses
ⓣPoison Spray: Short range and con save dampen the high damage.
Thunderclap: You generally don't want to be surrounded.

©Dancing Lights: Concentration really hurts this. Better to take light.
Control flames: A much more limited presditigitation.
Gust: A few uses.
Shape water: A few uses.
Infestation: Fun, but not useful. Also Con save is bad.

©True Strike: No. Just no. Attacking twice is better than attacking once with advantage. And this will spoil any concentration.
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*Spells Tips*
Sorcerers have a very limited number of known spells, not even 2 per spell level. I rated versatile spells a bit higher.
You can trade out your spells. This is particularly useful for damage spells, which don't scale well (except vitriolic sphere).
Since you can convert slots for SP, you don't need to know a spell for every level. Though avoid trading too much, it's not efficient.

[sblock=level 1]
ⓣChromatic Orb: Good damage and can get dragon's damage bonus, wilds tides of chaos, shadow's darkness, or storms heart. Ice dragons should go for ice knife instead.
Catapult: No bloodline bonus, but adds a bit of utility such as grabbing keys off a table, stabbing a guard with his friend's dagger, and is S only so it works if silenced or hidden. Can't be twinned (which requires targeting creatures).
and storm should stick with chromatic orb. Though it doesn't scale well, so trade it out later.
Sleep: Effective AoE spell at level 1. Scales well for a non-concentration spell.
Magic Missile: This does the most baseline damage of any level 1 spell. (Chromatic orb wins with the sub-class boost).

Chaos Bolt: Lower damage than chromatic orb, with a low chance of an extra attack. Better with empowered, which gives you an extra chance to get that bonus attack.
False Life: a good chunk of extra THP at level 1. But fades quickly, so trade it out for shield later.
Ice Knife: Decent single target damage, plus a little splash. Ice dragons want this though. At least at low level since this scales poorly.
Shield: You can't do much if you're dead. This spell effectively get's better as you level, definitely worth picking up at some point. It's also a reasonable use of SP to create more level 1 slots if needed.
©Fog Cloud: There are some good sneaky uses for this, and it stays useful at higher levels. Note that not being able to see a creature (disadvantage), or be seen by the creature (advantage), cancels out.
©Silent Image: Good utility. Combines nicely with subtle.
Thunderwave: Low damage, but pushing has it's used, particularly if you have zones.

Absorb Elements: Similar to shield, this spell get's better as you level. Half damage from a fireball can both keep you alive, and keep concentration.
Burning Hands: The highest damage AoE option at level 1. Which isn't saying much.
ⓣCharm Person: Utility.
Comprehend Languages: Utility.
©Disguise Self: Another utility. Better if you also have subtle metamagic, as it allows some great subterfuge.
©Expeditious Retreat: More utility.
Mage Armor: Most sorcerers shouldn't be taking 20+ attacks in a day. Though this effectivly scales, so it might be worthwhile at later level. Worthless for dragon.

Color Spray: With it's limited range and short duration, it's generally worse than sleep.
Detect Magic: Rarely used utility. And remember, you can't use it as a ritual.
Earth Tremors: Prone doesn't do much if their already this close. Might have some uses if multi-classed into a melee.
Feather Fall: Rarely used utility. Unless you're level 14+ dragon or storm, where falling is a serious threat.
©Witch Bolt: This can add up if you are stuck in a small room, and you don't yet have competing concentration spells. Though it completely fails to scale.

Jump: Really hard to make a case for.
ⓣRay of Sickness: Too many rolls for such a minimal effect.
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[sblock=level 2]
ⓣ©Suggestion: Only 1 save for a full 8 hours of control makes this great in and out of combat. "Help us kill your boss", "Surrender unconditionally" or "Go get me a beer". Some DM's may not play along though.

ⓣBlindness/Deafness: A weaker control effect, but the fact that it's not concentration makes useful. It's better to cast it in a higher slot then twin.
ⓣ©Hold Person: Great control, and gives allies advantage and crits.
ⓣ©Levitate: A nice combo of control and utility. Though many melee creatures have good Con and ranged won't care. A good candidate for heightened.
ⓣ©Phantasmal Force: Great control that target's the generally low Int, with some possible damage. A cave-in is a good default, or twin it to make 2 enemies see each other as enemies, but some creativity can really make this shine. Some DM's may not play along though.
Scorching Ray: Great damage at this level. Scales ok. Combo's with hold person/monster's advantage and crits.
Shatter: Good AoE damage, for the moment.

©Cloud of Daggers: Good damage and is one of the few damage spells that actually scales well, but is hindered by concentration. Better if you have allies that can control movement, like a grappler, or ranger with ensaring shot.
ⓣ©Enlarge/Reduce: The buff of choice at this level, as well as some decent utility, but a bit short lived. Also, the debuff if poor.
©Gust of Wind: 15 back, and double movement is 30', enough to shut down many melee enemies, at least in a hallway. It's still effective even against high Str enemies. Can be used with careful metamagic to not affect your allies. Better if an ally has a zone to push things into.
Mirror Image: Absorbs _up to_ 3 hits, but requires knowing you'll be targeted in advance. Which makes it great if you plan on running into melee (storm). Scales somewhat as damage-per-attack increases, and the lack of concentration keeps it useful as you level. There is negative synergy with heavy armor and shield, and to a lesser extent dragon or mage armor (more Dex has no net effect).
ⓣ©Invisibility: Good, long lasting utility. This is one of the few spells where extend would come in handy.
©Web: Good area of control, especially with careful that allows your allies to move freely.

©Alter Self: Utility. Better for water campaigns.
ⓣ©Crown of Madness: A great effect even if you drop it after 1 round, but it takes some finesse to use well, and can only target humanoids. Meaning that hold person wins in most use cases. It's easy to get 1 attack if you pay attention to initiative, and target the enemie(s) who goes next before others have a chance to move away. Also, some creatures have crappy melee attacks, so make the caster punch your fighter. Get's much better if you have a rogue with sentinel, who will love the off-turn attack, or some movement denial .
©Detect Thoughts: Utility.
ⓣ©Enhance Ability: Utility.
©Maximilian’s earthen grasp: Damage and control is good, but Str isn't the best thing to attack.
Misty Step: Utility.
©Spider Climb: Utility

Aganazzar’s scorcher: Short range leaves this only slightly better than burning hands.
©Blur: Taking both concentration and an action makes this a bit weak. Stick with Mirror Image if you take any at all. Better if you have high AC.
©Darkness: Not much use unless you have a special sense (warlock's devils sight). Note that not seeing your enemy (disadvantage), and them not seeing you (advantage) cancels out to a normal attack.
ⓣDarkvision: Most races have this; can be good for humans.
©ⓣ:Dragon's Breath: PC's will have an action that's nearly as good, that doesn't take up a spell slot, and a better action at level 5. However, this can work well with summons, skeletons, and the even familiars (it's not an attack, so they can use their own action).
Knock: Rarely used utility.
See Invisibility: Rarely used utility. Detect thoughts can usually work just as well.
©Shadow Blade: A nice weapon that you probably won't be using.
©Warding Wind: Can be used to protect your allies as well as yourself. Just not with ranged weapon allies.

©Dust devil: End of turn means this will rarely do anything.
©Earthbind: Too specific.
©ⓣMind Spike: Low damage and breaks your concentration on other spells.
Pyrotechnics: Too hard to use. Even with quicken + bonfire, it's not worth much.
Snilloc’s snowball swarm: Lower damage and smaller size than shatter. Not even cold dragons will want this.
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[sblock=level 3]
Fireball: The best AoE spell of this level, and for the next few. Might still be good at higher levels for clearing out low level hordes.
ⓣ©Haste: A great buff, particularly for twin-high damage allies (great weapon master / sharpshooter). Still useful with single sword and board. Works particularly for a rogue who can use the haste action to attack, and the normal action to ready an attack off-turn for double sneak attack, or just attack again if they miss. Alternatively, use it to hit-and-run with booming blade, or just double dash to escape a bad situation. Just make sure your concentration isn't interrupted.
©Hypnotic Pattern: The go-to control spell for most of the game; 1 save to take someone out of the fight and a free crit to whoever wakes them up. Just make sure to kill one enemy at a time, and avoid waking others. Careful metamagic can help here.
©Careful + Stinking Cloud: Given how much the utility of this spell changes with careful, I'm rating it twice. With careful, you and your allies can safely hide in it, while reducing enemy actions. Note that not seeing your enemy (disadvantage), and them not seeing you (advantage) cancels out to a normal attack. That means you can also cast firebolt in melee (1 advantage cancels out all disadvantage). Make sure to warn your allies, as no sight stops many spells and effects (both friendly sacred flame, and enemy medisa's gaze). But if they are prepared, they can make good use of it. For instance, bonus action attack (spiritual weapon) and standard action to hide, or using wild shape/polymorph/summon (animate objects) for a special sense which gives advantage.

©Clairvoyance: Nice utility. It can help you know if it's time to buff up. Though you might want to wait until later levels when a level 3 slots means a bit less.
Counterspell: Trading a slot for a slot is usually a bad deal for PC's, but trading a reaction to stop an action is a good trade. While this can technically be twinned, I don't think it will even come up.
ⓣ©Enemies Abound: Best if cast in the middle of a horde, but then, so is hypnotic pattern. Could pull off some really fun tricks with stealth and subtle.
©Fear: A good control effect can give your allies some OA's (rogues). Better with careful metamagic.
Lightning Bolt: The same damage as fireball, but generally harder to hit multiple enemies with.
©Melf’s minute meteors: A good bit of damage, and good targeting, but spread out over a few turns. If your DM likes swarms that are spread out, this works great. Scales poorly.
ⓣ©Fly: Good utility, and an auto-win for some battles.
©Major Image: Lots of utility.
©Slow: Slightly bigger area than hypnotic pattern, with built in careful, but quite a bit weaker effect. Better for ranged parties who can outrun the enemy.
Thunder Step: Escape + damage. Even better for storm, who can maneuver into a good position, and deal extra damage.

Blink: Not attacking you just means they hit your allies. So it doesn't help too much.
Dispel Magic: Utility.
Erupting earth: A good bit less damage than fireball in exchange for some difficult terrain, which is generally not worth it. However, this scales rather well, and beats fireball by level 5, and is only slightly behind cone of cold.
ⓣ©Protection from Energy: A good buff, if you know what's coming.
Tidal Wave: The loss of damage and area compared to fireball usually is made up for by prone.
ⓣTongues: Utility. Could be importaint for suggestion.
Water Breathing: Utility

©Flame arrows: The same damage as melf's minute meteors, but it requires a bow, and doesn't do half on a miss, or in a burst.
©Sleet Storm: Unless you're facing a lot of spell casting enemies, this just isn't much control.
©Stinking Cloud: Enemies can usually walk out of this, or dash though (no save on enter). A little better if you have forced movement.
Water Walk: Water breathing is usually better.

Catnap: It only saves a little time.
Daylight: Not worth it for an upgraded cantrip.
ⓣ©Gaseous Form: I don't expect you need to fly though many keyholes.
©Wall of water: Warding wind is a level lower and gives you similar protection.
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## mellored

[sblock=level 4]
ⓣ©Greater Invisibility: A fantastic buff spell for any weapon attacker, or 2. You may wish to keep with haste for a little while though, least until you get more slots and SP.
ⓣ©Polymorph: A great buff spell, also great utility.
Vitriolic sphere: While slightly worse than fireball at this level. This scales extremely well, meaning 1 spell could cover 4-5 spell levels of blasting (though it doesn't completly replace them), potentially freeing up your limited known spells for other stuff like utility. Also works well with wilds spell bombardment, and careful.

ⓣ©Banishment: A rare Charisma save makes gives this a good chance to land. But otherwise isn't anything special. Note there is some utility here, to return to your own plane.
ⓣBlight: Good single target, or twinned, damage. Can also be a good with subtle.
Dimension Door: Good utility.
©Storm sphere: Decent damage overtime. Careful can be used to hide inside of it.
©Wall of Fire: A nice damage zone. Careful does NOT help. But forced movement (warlock with repelling blast) does.

©Dominate Beast: There just arn't many beasts, particularly at higher levels. At least they have low Wis, so this can stick despite the many rolls.
©Sickening Radiance: Big zone, but not much control unless they fail mutiple times, and Con save is a poor save. Works well with careful.
ⓣ©Stoneskin: Greater invisibility is better most of the time, though it doesn't work against special senses.
Vitriolic sphere: Only slightly more damage than fireball at this level, but over 2 turns. (Unless your an acid dragon) Though works a bit better than other blast spells with careful, as you avoid the secondary damage. Scales well, and will beat out fireball by level 6.
©Watery sphere: Control that you can move around, but restrained doesn't do much, except against melee, and melee has Str. Careful metamagic can help allies not get caught in it.

ⓣCharm Monster: Some utitily.

©Confusion: Small area an ineffective control.
Ice Storm: Less damage than erupting earth at this level, and a less duration on the difficult terrain.
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[sblock=level 5]
©Animate Objects: Lots of potential damage from a swarm of tiny rocks. Larger ones are less helpful. It also has some utility for animating jail keys to come to you.

Cone of Cold: Good damage in a big area, but cones are a bit harder to aim.
ⓣ©Hold Monster: Good control. Just make sure to use hold person for people.
©Insect Plague: Generally worse than firewall, which slows more and does more damage.
Synaptic Static: A little low on damage, but Int save means higher accuracy, and a modest non-concentration debuff (worth a little less than disadvantage).
Teleportation Circle: Good utility, as well as a good way to escape.
©Wall of Stone: More utility than control, but it can do both.

Creation: Utility
ⓣ©Dominate Person: Powerful, but requires a lot of saves.
ⓣ©Immolation: About on par with Blight, doing more damage, but taking concentration. Though there are a good number of low Dex high HP creatures which you can subtle cast or hit and run from until it dies.
Seeming: Utility
ⓣ©Skill Empowerment: Utility.
ⓣ?©Telekinesis: More utility than control, but it can do both. And I can think of a few things to do with a 1000lb boulder. I'm unsure if this can be twinned.

ⓣ©Ennervate: Low damage + low heal that's easy to break.
©Far Step: Misty step won't break your concentration and will be good enough most of the time.

©Control winds: Warding wind is level 2.
©Cloudkill: Worse than wall of fire and insect plague.
©Wall of Light: A wall that people can walk through isn't much of a wall.
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[sblock=level 6]
Mass Suggestion: All the benefits of suggestion, in an ally friendly area, without concentration.

Chain Lightning: Effectively an AoE that doesn't hit allies.
ⓣDisintegrate: Huge damage (75) and some utility. However, unlike similar spells, this does nothing on a save. Fortunately, dex is a low save, and it's can use heightened or twinned, as well as wild's bend luck.
©ⓣMental Prison: A little more damage then disintegrate (82.5), and the target loses a turn, but it takes concentration.

Circle of Death: Low damage, but huge area makes this great against hordes.
©Sunbeam: Another option for blasting, but concentration keeps it down a notch.
(4th level)Vitriolic sphere: Makes a good blast.

©Move Earth: Just reshape the dungeon as you see fit. One of the few spells that works well wtih extended metamagic.
Scatter: A modest improvement over dimension door.

©Arcane Gate: As fun as it is to play with portals, it's usually cheaper to walk. You can't even put one in the sky.
©Globe of Invulnerability: If your DM likes spell casters. Note that it doesn't do anything for weapons.
ⓣTrue Seeing: If your DM likes hidden things

©Investiture of wind: A combination of fly and warding wind can work great in some situations. Just not many.
©Eyebite: This uses too many actions to accomplish anything.
©Investiture of flame: Piddly effects and only slightly better than firebolt.
©Investiture of ice: Piddly effects and only slightly better than firebolt.
©Investiture of stone: Stoneskin is a few levels lower.
[/sblock]

[sblock=level 7]
Fire Storm: Great flexible targeting makes this superb against hordes. Note that you can go over top of allies.
ⓣPlane Shift: As close to a save-or-die spell as there is in the game. Also some great utility (cast twice to go anywhere on your original plane), as well as escape.

Crown of Stars: An decent upgrade to quicken + firebolt (still OK at level 17+). Just make sure you have 2 battles in the time frame to make full use of it. Better if you have advantage (wild, shadow) or extended to help ensure you get the full use.
ⓣFinger of Death: Good damage, and a way to get permanent servants.
©Reverse Gravity: A good mix of control, utility, and damage over a large area. Though it's less useful inside.

Etherealness: Utility
Teleport: Plane shift is generally better.
©Whirlwind: Watery sphere, with damage. Note that damage and restrained are 2 independant saves.

©Delayed Blast Fireball: Very difficult to use consistently, but amazing if you can pull it off. Consider hiding it in an allies darkness spell. Extended metamagic can really boost the damage, though that doesn't make it any easier to use.

Power Word Pain: 1 turn of disadvantage is pretty weak at this level, and the disavantage on saves could be over before you have a chance to cast another spell at it.
Prismatic Spray: Less damage than firestorm, and much worse targeting.
[/sblock]

[sblock=level 8]
Sunburst: Big area, decent damage, and a nice effect.

ⓣ©Dominate Monster: Great effect, but lots of saves.
ⓣPower Word Stun: Very few creatures have more than 150 HP. And those tend to be pretty obvious.
©Incendiary Cloud: High damage area, but moving usually doesn't help.

Abi-Dalzim’s horrid wilting: A bit more damage than Sunburst, but lacks blind. And I can't think of any high level plant monsters.
©Earthquake: More utility than damage. But it does have a long range.
[/sblock]

[sblock=level 9]
Wish (simulacrum). You get an extra ally. There are 3 main options, depending on your party. Make sure to take a long rest before casting, and possibly boost the target's max HP (aid, heros' feats).

Another high level caster. You still get the effects of a 9th level slot (foresight) AND all their other spells. And caster's don't need equipment. If that caster also has wish, they can safely use its alternative effects. There is also truly game breaking combo, where you can chain-cast simulacrum to make an army of high level casters in a few minutes. I assume any DM will squash this, or the player will.
Ranged DPR, who can deal tons of damage while staying safe in the back; lasting for days on a single cast. This frees up your slot for other spells. Note that you will need pare equipment, but that shouldn't be hard to find.
Yourself. You won't get the extra 9th level slot that you do with a second caster, but high level sorcerer's aren't exactly lacking in power (quad greater invisibility) and you will always have yourself as a target.
Half max HP makes copying melee types a bit less helpful (though still great). It should also be noted that you don't need permission to copy, just the target to be within reach for 1 action. So you could copy a king or BBEG. 

Wish (other) Even without simulacrum, this is an extremly flexible spell. It's great for spells with costly components, such as clone, resurrection, heros' feats, awaken, and greater restoration. Or any utility that you need, such as glibness, mirage aracan, teleport, or even something like create food and water. It also works if you need a different type of attacks, such as earthquake, force cage or tsunami. Avoid any of the alternate uses. It's not worth not losing the spell over unless it's campaign ending. Unfortunately, you can't twin this even if you use it to duplicate a twinable spell.
Meteor Swarm: The ultimate AoE. 140 on a hit, 70 on a miss, and can target 4 different places in a huge range. But make a wish->simulacrum first.

Psycich Scream: More of a mass stun then a blast spell (only 49 damage on a fail). But Int saves can shut down a lot of targets.

ⓣPower Word Kill: 100 HP just isn't that much, especially compared to meteor swarm. Though this works nicely with subtle.

©Mass Polymorph: Unlike normal polymorph, you can transfor for only 1/2 the target's level. Though there can be some utility for big parties, such as turning into birds, or digging.
Time Stop: Even with creativity and extended metamagic this is just hard to use well.

©Gate: Just use plane shift.
[/sblock]


----------



## mellored

*Feats
*+2 Cha: If you're using control spells, this helps.
+2 Con: Helps keep you alive, and maintain concentration.
Inspiring Leader: Protect yourself and your meat shields. Just keep in mind this is 1/party.
Healer: Since you're in the back, your usually the last to fall. Though take inspiring leader first. Also 1/party.
Resilient (wis): You lose concentration if you are stunned.

+2 Dex: Going first and not getting hit is good.
Alert: Hit before you are hit. Good if you don't know what else to take
Elven Accuracy (half-elf): If you have an odd charisma score and are wild and shadow who can generate easy advantage for firebolts.  Poor for anyone else.
Ritual Caster: Add a lot of utility.
Lightly/moderately armored: Only take light if you are aiming for moderately armored. +7 AC (with shield) for 2 feats is pretty good. Though consider multiclassing if you want this.
Lucky: Another good one if you don't know what else to take.
Prodigy (half-elf, human): Expertise is stealth can go a long way. Particularly with subtle.
Warcaster: Helps you keep concentration, but the other aspects aren't likely to be used.

Actor: If you have an odd charisma score.
Defensive Dualist: It's easy to grab a dagger, if you're not using the shield spell.
Durable: If you have an odd con score.

Elemental adept: A trap option that adds piddly extra damage and has anti-synergy with empowered metamagic.


*UA*

Favored soul: Broadens your choices, but not your known spells. You don't get many extra numbers like dragons +AC and +HP, wilds +free spells, or storms +damage. It's just allowing you to lose sunbeam in order to gain heal. Also, most of the best metamagic spells are already available to the sorcerer, and most cleric spells are designed for melee. Can be good for small groups where you need to take on multiple roles, though consider a lore bard.
[sblock]
Divine Magic: A few cleric spells mix with meta-magic, like quicken bless, or twin heal can work nicely. Spirital weapon is also a top spell in general. But given the limited number of known spells, your not gaining much versatility, and not any additional power. The free cure wound is nice, but doesn't scale well.
Favored by the Gods: Pretty nice. Mostly use this for saves, particularly at later level, when your firebolts don't do much.

Empowered Healing: Healing spells are not heavily dice based. With the best being mass cure wound's 3d8 + mod, which you may not even have. For cure wounds, casting it twice is better.

Divine Purity: Flying is a good way to stay safe and get free utility. Make sure to grab feather fall.

Unearthly Recovery: A decent amount of extra HP. Could be a little better with a high-level aid, but that's probably not worth the slot.
[/sblock]

Phoenix: Pretty lacking unless you fight one short battle a day. I suggest changing mantle of flame to once per short rest.
[sblock]
Ignite: Ribbon.
Mantle of Flame: Short lived, piddly damage, and you don't want to be hit. Might work with each scorching ray, or might not.

Phenox Spark: This is not a feature you should try to be using. Good when you need it though.

Nourishing Fire: A modest amount of HP thought the day.

Form of the Phenoix: Resisting all damage is great, but this is too short lived.
[/sblock]

Sea: A nice set.
[sblock]
Soul of the Sea: Nice to have. Especially on sea campaigns.
Curse of the Sea: Several nice effects. Quicken can help get past needing to hit with the cantrip first.

Watery Defense: A nice escape.

Shifting Forms: Pretty weak for a 14, as you likely won't provoke many OA's.

Water Soul: A bit late, but resistance is great.
[/sblock]

Stone: Lots of defense for you and the party.
[sblock]
Bonus Profiency+Stones Durabilitly: Effectively the medium armored feat, without jumping through light. Weapons proficiency doesn't add much.
Metal Magic: Nothing fancy here, particularly since the smites take concentration.

Stone Aegis: 2-5 damage reduction, which scales by multi-attack. Better than heavy armor mastery. Plus you get an occasional free attack.

Stones Edge: 50% more damage for firebolts. A good reason to quicken + cantrip.

Earth Master Ageis: DR for more people. Though at this point, most of the attacks should be going to one guy.
[/sblock]

Dark: Great for multi-classing and control.
[sblock]
Eyes of the Dark: This is the warlock's darkness + devils sight trick, but as a level 1 spell. Unfortunately, concentration is rough to give up for yourself.
Strength of the Grave: Not not likely to succeed often, nor do you really want to test it.

Hound of Ill Omen: Effectively an improved version of heightened metamagic, since it lingers for more than 1 save, and someone needs to spend an action to get rid of it. Goes well with hold person.

Shadow Walk: Some great mobility here.

Shadow Form: Great defense at a reasonable cost.
[/sblock]


----------



## mellored

*Multi-classing.*

Like most full casters, there is plenty of good reason to stick with sorcerer the whole time, and you even get one of the nicer capstone. The big exceptoin is armor. If your party lacks a good front line to hide behind, getting AC can be a big help. Hexblade 1 is the easiest stat wise. Cleric 1 is the other option, giving you higher level slots, but requires some Wis.

On the other side, dipping into Sorcerer 3 works nicely for several builds. Adding metamagic and Con saves, and letting you do things like quicken + bless + attack, extended + healing spirit, or use subtle + rogue for stealth spells (Arcane Trickster 9 for disadvantage on saves).


*Generic Example Build*
Variant Human with inspiring leader.
8 str, 14 dex, 16 con, 8 but, 10 wis, 16 cha.
Feats: +2cha, +2cha, resilient (wis), +2con,+2con
Metamagic: Twinned, quicken, heightened (level 10), empowered (level 17).
Cantrip: Firebolt, chill touch, minor illusion, prestidigitation, light, mage hand
Spells by level. Ones with a line through them get replaced.
1: chromatic orb, shield
2: sleep
3: suggestion
4: phantasmal force
5: haste, fireball (replace chromatic orb).
6: hypnotic pattern, blind/deafness (replace sleep)
7: greater invisibility, polymorph (replaces haste)
8: blight
9: cone of cold
10: animate objects
11: chain lightning, mass suggestion (replaces phantasmal force)
13: plane shift, firestorm (replaces cone of cold)
15: sunburst
17: wish


*Wild Sticky Bomb*: Switching up the normal, dipping hexblade 1 for armor, physical shield, and Cha to-hit. Use your SP to make level 1 slots, and go into melee. Attack with booming blade and use tides of chaos to make it stick, with warcaster for extra stickiness. When they attack you, cast shield to protect yourself, and trigger a wild surge in their face, and recharging tides of chaos. By level 11, you can have 24 AC and 33 rounds of surges. Buff with Greater invisibility for longer battles, and you still have the option to fireball.

*Storm Surge*: Similar to above, go cleric, and use SP to make a lot of level 1 slots. Then you spam booming blade + quicken thunderwave to trigger heart of storms (triggers before the push). This doesn't directly trigger booming blade's secondary, but melee enemies will need to move back towards which will. Overall it's more damage, but less defense than the wild.

*Shadow Mini Gunner*: Start normal shadow, going up to 9 or 10, with quicken as your (third) metamagic. Then 2 levels of hexblade for eldritch blast, agonizing blast. Start a battle with darkness (2SP), and spam quicken eldritch blast. That's 6d10+30 with advantage, for 2 SP. At level 17, it get's boosted to 8d10+40, which is better than disintegrate, still for 2 SP. Alternatively, use hound and hold person to turn them all into eldrich crits.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:
			
		

> *Cons*
> . . .
> Evocation wizards tend to do slightly better at pure blasting, especially at lower levels.




Are you basing this statement entirely on AoEs with spell sculpting? I view twinned spell, tides of chaos, and Con proficiency as better for blasting at lower levels, especially given that the large and powerful AoEs don't come online until 3rd spell level.



> [*]Make sure your allies know to punch you if you turn into a pot or sheep.




This is kind of table-talky, and you actually don't want anyone hitting you if you're a pot. It is not a polymorph, so your HP are your HP.



> Spell Bombardment: A very small damage boost at this level, adding only 1.9 damage to firebolts and 2.7 to fireballs. Works a bit better with empowered metamagic.




Yet it adds damage to disintegrate (and erupting earth), which neither dragons nor evokers can do. It can also add damage to the same spell repeatedly in subsequent rounds (storm sphere, insect plague, sunbeam), and it can deal damage on enemy turns (vitriolic sphere, investiture of flame). Basically, if you get to eighteenth level, you should have better spells than fireball. Edit: The 2.7 number is also for a fireball cast at third level. By eighteenth character level, third-level slots should probably be going toward twinned haste, control spells, or sorcery points.

By the way, thanks for giving wild magic its due.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> Are you basing this statement entirely on AoEs with spell sculpting? I view twinned spell, tides of chaos, and Con proficiency as better for blasting at lower levels, especially given that the large and powerful AoEs don't come online until 3rd spell level.



always on and better careful metamagic, and always on and better empowered metamagic.  (At least as far as blasting goes).

I could see a high level wild doing better with bend luck + empowered + bombardment, but that's level 18 for all the pieces.

Fair point about lower level twin but not sure what Con saves have to do with it.  Con is good for buffing and control, but it doesn't effect a twinned chromatic orb.



> This is kind of table-talky, and you actually don't want anyone hitting you if you're a pot. It is not a polymorph, so your HP are your HP.



 I'll double check.



> Yet it adds damage to disintegrate (and erupting earth), which neither dragons nor evokers can do. It can also add damage to the same spell repeatedly in subsequent rounds (storm sphere, insect plague, sunbeam), and it can deal damage on enemy turns (vitriolic sphere, investiture of flame). Basically, if you get to eighteenth level, you should have better spells than fireball. Edit: The 2.7 number is also for a fireball cast at third level. By eighteenth character level, third-level slots should probably be going toward twinned haste, control spells, or sorcery points.



I'll calculate a few more examples.



> By the way, thanks for giving wild magic its due.



I'll have to calculate the odds of TPK by surge before you get enough hp to survive.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> always on and better careful metamagic




It has its advantages, but it is restricted to evocation spells and can only protect a number of creatures equal to one plus the spell's level. And, again, in the first tier, your AoEs are not a huge threat to your allies.



> and always on and better empowered metamagic.




What are you even talking about? The tenth-level evoker feature? It is always on, providing the wizard is always casting wizard evocation spells, but it is (varying with Int mod) flat added damage, meaning that it does not scale as the metamagic does. If you want to spam cantrips all day, sure, empowered evocation is better. If you want added damage to your higher-level spells, though, empowered spell beats it.

Or do you mean the fourteenth-level evoker feature? It functions something like a better empowered metamagic on spells of fifth level and lower, but it is always on only if the wizard wants to die.

And how are you using either one of those at lower levels?



> I could see a high level wild doing better with bend luck + empowered + bombardment, but that's level 18 for all the pieces.




Or with tides of chaos at first level. It's hard for me to see the evoker competing until tenth level at the earliest, except with AoEs in certain circumstances.



> Fair point about lower level twin but not sure what Con saves have to do with it.  Con is good for buffing and control, but it doesn't effect a twinned chromatic orb.




Conjure bonfire, cloud of daggers, hold person, invisibility, phantasmal force, web. All of those have blasting applications.


----------



## Blue

One big use for subtle at the tables I play is to prevent the casting from being noticed for Counterspell.  That might be worth noting.  (I agree with the blue color, just want to add another thought for people taking it.)

EDIT:  BTW, kudos on finding a non-armored yet not skimpily dressed caster image.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> It's hard for me to see the evoker competing until tenth level at the earliest, except with AoEs in certain circumstances.



Fair.
I must have been mixing up evokers empowered evocation with dragons elemental affinity.  I wasn't thinking it was that late.


----------



## mellored

Blue said:


> One big use for subtle at the tables I play is to prevent the casting from being noticed for Counterspell.  That might be worth noting.  (I agree with the blue color, just want to add another thought for people taking it.)
> 
> EDIT:  BTW, kudos on finding a non-armored yet not skimpily dressed caster image.



Noted.

And your welcome.


----------



## Yunru

For multiclassing I'd actually suggest Warlock 3 over just 2. You get the cool Pact and now your Warlock slots are 2nd level, you get your Capstone feature too!


----------



## mellored

Ok done.
Let me know if you disagree with anything.




Yunru said:


> For multiclassing I'd actually suggest Warlock 3 over just 2. You get the cool Pact and now your Warlock slots are 2nd level, you get your Capstone feature too!



Ehh... Darkness + devils sight works better than greater invisibility.  Though it can't be twinned.  So it depends on the party.

Otherwise, you end up losing 3-4 SP for the sub-class feature.


----------



## Yunru

mellored said:


> Otherwise, you end up losing 3-4 SP for the sub-class feature.



Nonsense! Your maximum becomes 3 lower, but your actual SP increases by 3/6 versus pure Sorcerer (1 lower max, 2/4 higher compared to Warlock 2).


I'm... not sure where Greater Invisibility comes into it though? Unless you're on about the familiar.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> Ok done.




Storm?


----------



## mellored

Yunru said:


> Nonsense! Your maximum becomes 3 lower, but your actual SP increases by 3/6 versus pure Sorcerer (1 lower max, 2/4 higher compared to Warlock 2).



Warlock 3 gives you level 2 * 2 slots * 3 rests = 12 SP.
Sorcerer 20 gives you 3 more base, and an extra 5th, 6th, 7th slot = 21 SP.   Plus the capstone for aother 12.


But I guess we are talking warlock 2  vs 3.  So that's 1 extra level * 2 slots * 3 rests = 6SP.
Sorcerer 18 gives 1 more base, and 5th level slot = 6 SP.

Net is the same SP either way.
So it's down to spell bombardment (+0.55 damage per EB ray) vs some THP.



> I'm... not sure where Greater Invisibility comes into it though? Unless you're on about the familiar.



For advantage.  EB spam greatly benifits from it, and sorcerer's don't get foresight.  Twinned Greater Invisibility helps both you, and an ally fighter/rogue/paladin/monk/ect...

Darkness + devils sight would be cheaper, but only work for you.   It also requires warlock 3.
Generally, I favor party total over personal.  Particularly since you're hiding behind them.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> Storm?



Fixed.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> Fixed.




Cool, but there is actually a published version in the SCAG. If memory serves, the only difference is that a bonus-action cost has been added to one of the features.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> Cool, but there is actually a published version in the SCAG. If memory serves, the only difference is that a bonus-action cost has been added to one of the features.



Re-fixed.

A little better than the UA, with more mobility options and ally friendly burst, (it lost the bonus spells, but those wheren't much) but still has the same main issue of a squishy caster in melee range.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

Re-cool.

I'll probably make some comments about spells when I get a better chance to look them over, but for the time being, well done.


----------



## Yunru

mellored said:


> Net is the same SP either way.
> So it's down to spell bombardment (+0.55 damage per EB ray) vs some THP.



Nay, it boils down to timing!
When do you want your 4SP/Rest? At level 20, or level 7?


----------



## mellored

Yunru said:


> Nay, it boils down to timing!
> When do you want your 4SP/Rest? At level 20, or level 7?



Fair.

Though you're going to be a spell level behind.  Getting mass suggestions, Fire storm, and wish all a level later.


----------



## Yunru

mellored said:


> Fair.
> 
> Though you're going to be a spell level behind.  Getting mass suggestions, Fire storm, and wish all a level later.




Touché, it is a trade off.


----------



## gyor

You under value Divine Magic feature,  which is worth at least sky blue,  if not gold,  as it opens up entire new builds,  and combos,  in areas that traditional sorcerors suck at. 

 Example,  Necromancy,  the tråd sorceror doesn't really do necromancy, but the Favoured Soul does and does it well,  with animate undead,  create undead,  finger of death,  ect... 

 Want a conjurer,  if your a tråd sorceror too bad,  but a Favoured  Soul has Spiritual Weapon,  Spiritual Guardians,  Guardian of Faith,  Planar Ally,  Conjure Celestial. 

 Here is a great combo for you,  put Aid in a 9th level slot, it heals 3 people for 85hp each, but better yet, it increases max hps by 85hp for each of them for 8 hours.

 With extend spell (which is far more awesome for Favoured Souls then other Sorcerors), you can have Aid for 16 hours.

 If you are one of the characters who recieves Aid, it makes your Unearthly Recovery more power because that is based on you maxium hps, which you just increased, half of 85 rounded down is 42hp extra healed by Unearthly recovery. And it doesn't take consentration to maintain.

 Also if you are surrounded with spirit guardians up, and you get hit, consentration is a saving throw,  which you can use Favoured of the Gods on. 

 With twin spell,  you can cast twin resurrection,  twin revify,  twin lesser restoration,  twinned greater restoration,  and so. 

 Also because cleric spells are more likely to have touch,  distance spell has more value. Revify from 30 feet instead of touch for example. 

 Its also great if your party doesn't have any other healers. 

 The Divine Magic feature almost changes the Favoured Soul into its own class. 

 And the features of the latest Favoured Soul has changed. 

 Divine Magic still in, but now it has grants Cure Wounds as a known spell free. Supernatural Resistance out. Blessed Counterance out,  but some of the fluff in used in the 14th level feauture.

 Instead at 6th level you get Empower Healing, for 1 sorcery point you can reroll any die in a healing spell. Kind of like Empowered Spell, but for healing instead of damage and no charisma cap. 

 At 14th level the wings are back, but spectral, and you have a minor physical alternation of your appearance (the fluff from former blessed counterance.

 Unearthly Recovery is still Unearthly Recovery.


----------



## mellored

gyor said:


> You under value Divine Magic feature,  which is worth at least sky blue,  if not gold,  as it opens up entire new builds,  and combos,  in areas that traditional sorcerors suck at.
> 
> Example,  Necromancy,  the tråd sorceror doesn't really do necromancy, but the Favoured Soul does and does it well,  with animate undead,  create undead,  finger of death,  ect...
> 
> Want a conjurer,  if your a tråd sorceror too bad,  but a Favoured  Soul has Spiritual Weapon,  Spiritual Guardians,  Guardian of Faith,  Planar Ally,  Conjure Celestial.



Meta-magic doens't do anything for those spells, except finger of death, which the sorcerer already has.  So why not just be a cleric?  It comes with armor and a lot more spells.

Nor do sorcerer's have that many spell choices to begin with.  Each cleric spell is one less sorcerer spell.



> Here is a great combo for you,  put Aid in a 9th level slot, it heals 3 people for 85hp each, but better yet, it increases max hps by 85hp for each of them for 8 hours.
> 
> With extend spell (which is far more awesome for Favoured Souls then other Sorcerors), you can have Aid for 16 hours.



It would be a really odd day where you cast aid, and not take damage for 8 hours.
Also, a good bit of a waste of your 9th level slot.  Mass heal is 700HP, or 233 HP for 3 people.



> With twin spell, you can cast twin resurrection,  twin revify,  twin lesser restoration,  twinned greater restoration,  and so.



True.  But how often do you get 2 dead/poisoned allies?
Now of clerics had spells like maze or foresight.... that would be different.  But they don't.  At best, a twin healing word, or twin heal.



> Instead at 6th level you get Empower Healing, for 1 sorcery point you can reroll any die in a healing spell.



Empowerd doesn't work with healing.
I would allow it as a houserule, but by RAW it's damage only.


----------



## Bishop_

My great grudge against the Sorcerer is... why not trying a Wizard? That is, from a mechanical point of view, what is the Sorcerer selling point vs Wizard?

In time, good work. I like your objective writing style.


----------



## mellored

Bishop_ said:


> My great grudge against the Sorcerer is... why not trying a Wizard? That is, from a mechanical point of view, what is the Sorcerer selling point vs Wizard?



Careful web, twin greater invisibility, quicken and disengage, and subtle sneaky spells.


----------



## Yunru

Empowered Healing is the Favoured Soul's F6 iirc.


----------



## gyor

mellored said:


> Meta-magic doens't do anything for those spells, except finger of death, which the sorcerer already has.  So why not just be a cleric?  It comes with armor and a lot more spells.
> 
> Nor do sorcerer's have that many spell choices to begin with.  Each cleric spell is one less sorcerer spell.
> 
> It would be a really odd day where you cast aid, and not take damage for 8 hours.
> Also, a good bit of a waste of your 9th level slot.  Mass heal is 700HP, or 233 HP for 3 people.
> 
> True.  But how often do you get 2 dead/poisoned allies?
> Now of clerics had spells like maze or foresight.... that would be different.  But they don't.  At best, a twin healing word, or twin heal.
> 
> Empowerd doesn't work with healing.
> I would allow it as a houserule, but by RAW it's damage only.




 Conjure Celestial, Spirit Guardians, Guardian of Faith, and Spiritual Weapon benifits from Extend Spell.

 The healing that Aid does is a bonus, its the increased maxium hps that matter, the Favoured Soul has tons of healing to refill the targets to maxium. That is the point of extend spell is to maintain the increased maxium for 16 hours.

 A character with say 100 hp max nearly doubles their hps with 140 hp max, the character takes 184 damage they are still standing, and you can heal them back up to 140hps.

 Create/animate Undead with Suble spell can be fun, turn an enemy into an undead from hiding creating a distraction.

 Empower Spell can be used on Spiritual Weapon and Spiritual Guardians.

 Also Divine Magic gets better everytime the sorceror and cleric spell lists increase.


----------



## Yunru

Spiritual Weapon and its ilk don't benefit from Extend Spell. They're _eligible_ for it, but to no benefit.
An extra minute isn't going to carry you to the next fight, after all, and fights rarely last longer than 10 rounds to make it worthwhile for a single battle.


----------



## mellored

Yunru said:


> Empowered Healing is the Favoured Soul's F6 iirc.



It's not on in this UA.  https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf

Is there a newer one?


----------



## Yunru

mellored said:


> It's not on in this UA.  https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf
> 
> Is there a newer one?



Yes: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...gg6MAI&usg=AFQjCNFlZnWtCaFhVg4jgfzFNqxP-DxBPg


----------



## mellored

Yunru said:


> Yes: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...gg6MAI&usg=AFQjCNFlZnWtCaFhVg4jgfzFNqxP-DxBPg



Updated.

Still the same main issue.  You get choices, not bonuses.


----------



## Bishop_

mellored said:


> Careful web, twin greater invisibility, quicken and disengage, and subtle sneaky spells.




Aside metamagic, don't you envision nothing more? (This is only a question, not an argument or judgment or something biased, only a question).


----------



## mellored

Bishop_ said:


> Aside metamagic, don't you envision nothing more? (This is only a question, not an argument or judgment or something biased, only a question).



I can envision more, sure.  Overall, the sorcerer feels like a wizard subclass.

But as written, the only real difference is metamagic.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

Bishop_ said:


> My great grudge against the Sorcerer is... why not trying a Wizard? That is, from a mechanical point of view, what is the Sorcerer selling point vs Wizard?




For me it's the glorious wild surge table.


----------



## Kevin Smith

Noice


----------



## gyor

Extend spell on spells with 1 minute durations isn't useless as with good intel it allows you enough time to cast it before combat. 

 Example my Favoured Soul knows that the boss enemy and minions are in her throne room,  so before entering I cast an Extend Spell Dust Devil (from EE) and send it ahead of me into the throne room. So that one or two rounds before combat,  its a boss battle so say it lasts ten rounds, the Dust Devil lasts until the battle is over because it lasts for 12 rounds, not 6 like usual.


----------



## mellored

gyor said:


> Extend spell on spells with 1 minute durations isn't useless as with good intel it allows you enough time to cast it before combat.
> 
> Example my Favoured Soul knows that the boss enemy and minions are in her throne room, so before entering I cast an Extend Spell Dust Devil (from EE) and send it ahead of me into the throne room. So that one or two rounds before combat, its a boss battle so say it lasts ten rounds, the Dust Devil lasts until the battle is over because it lasts for 12 rounds, not 6 like usual.



It's not completely useless, no. But it's hard to use consistently.

Lots of times you might use it, and find the battle was only 8 rounds, or get hit and lose concentration. And thus you would have just wasted the SP.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> Controlled Chaos: Nearly eliminates the chances of a bad surge. So go wild. 59% good, 13% mixed, 2% bad, 26% RP.




I just noticed, these numbers seem off. As I calculate it, good would be 71% [1-(1-0.46)^2]. Bad would be 2% [0.14^2]. The others would vary depending on whether you prefer mixed or RP, but they would be something like 12% mixed [0.18*(1-0.46)+0.18*0.14] and 15% RP [0.22*(1-0.46)+0.22*0.14].

In words, the good is calculated as the odds of _either_ die being good, the bad as both dice being bad, and the others as the first die being mixed/RP and the second die being not good, or the first die being bad and the second being mixed/RP.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> I just noticed, these numbers seem off. As I calculate it, good would be 71% [1-(1-0.46)^2]. Bad would be 2% [0.14^2]. The others would vary depending on whether you prefer mixed or RP, but they would be something like 12% mixed [0.18*(1-0.46)+0.18*0.14] and 15% RP [0.22*(1-0.46)+0.22*0.14].
> 
> In words, the good is calculated as the odds of _either_ die being good, the bad as both dice being bad, and the others as the first die being mixed/RP and the second die being not good, or the first die being bad and the second being mixed/RP.



I though it seemed off...
You are correct.  Fixed.


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## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> The 2.7 number is also for a fireball cast at third level. By eighteenth character level, third-level slots should probably be going toward twinned haste, control spells, or sorcery points.



Recaculated the spell bombardment as a %.

It's a bit better than I thought.  About 15% for pure dice spells, being better for smaller dice.    Though since disintegrate and finger of death are half flat damage, it's only 6% for them.


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## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> I though it seemed off...
> You are correct.  Fixed.




Cool, but I think you used the original numbers for the RP/neutral category: 







> 71% good, 39% mixed/RP (generally your choice), 2% bad.






> Recaculated the spell bombardment as a %.
> 
> It's a bit better than I thought. About 15% for pure dice spells, being better for smaller dice. Though since disintegrate and finger of death are half flat damage, it's only 6% for them.




I appreciate the effort, but those percentages only hold true as long as you are rolling a single die. Using d12s as an example:

1 die, 0.083 chance to roll maximum, 0.54 (8.3%) added damage
2 dice, 0.160 chance to roll at least one maximum, 1.04 (8.0%) added damage
3 dice, 0.230 chance to roll at least one maximum, 1.49 (7.6%) added damage
etc.

Now with d4s:

1 die, 0.25 chance to roll maximum, 0.625 (25%) added damage
2 dice, 0.438 chance to roll at least one maximum, 1.093 (21.9%) added damage
3 dice, 0.578 chance to roll at least one maximum, 1.445 (19.3%) added damage
etc.

Notice the gained damage slowly decreasing with each added die.

If you were to graph it, you would find that the added damage is asymptotic with that die size's average damage. No matter how many d4s you roll, spell bombardment with never quite add 2.5 average damage.

This design has a few consequences. Though the gain is greater with small dice if you are only rolling one or two, it becomes greater for larger die sizes when you are rolling three or more, as you can see in the above comparison. Though small dice gain a greater percentage early, that percentage falls off rapidly.

For an extreme demonstration, consider a vitriolic sphere cast at both 4th level and at 9th, ignoring the 5d4 damage added on the opponents' turns. At fourth level, it deals 10d4 (25) damage, with spell bombardment adding 2.359, a gain of 9.4%. At ninth, it does 20d4 (50) damage, and spell bombardment adds 2.492, or 5.0%.

A third-level fireball, 8d6 (28) damage, gains 2.686 from spell bombardment, so it is already gaining more, both in absolute terms and as a percentage, than a vitriolic sphere at 4th or at 9th.

[There is a caveat with this example, of course. Vitriolic sphere provides _two_ chances to trigger spell bombardment, which makes it a very good spell for WMS.]

Thus, the general rule of thumb is, raw damage being equal, the sorcerer should choose the larger die size if he or she will still be rolling at least three dice. There are only a few cases where it actually comes up practically, though.

The best possible average gain with spells that are currently on the sorcerer list is 3.707 damage from . . . some spell, I don't remember which, cast at ninth level using 13d8, unless you count a crit on a ninth-level chromatic orb, which would deal 22d8 (99) damage and gain around 4.25 from spell bombardment. And then there's its function of increasing the value of rerolls with empowered spell. Anyway, enough trivia.

Spell bombardment will, on average, no matter the spell being cast, add less damage, on the first instance of damage, than the dragon's +Cha feature or the evoker's +Int. However, the big advantage of spell bombardment is that it can add damage to _anything_ and add it more often, and several of the best damage spells at high levels are neither elemental nor evocation.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> I appreciate the effort, but those percentages only hold true as long as you are rolling a single die.



Blah. I miss read that... again...

Yea, back down to black it goes.



> [There is a caveat with this example, of course. Vitriolic sphere provides _two_ chances to trigger spell bombardment, which makes it a very good spell for WMS.]



Hmm... i'm still not sure it's worth the delayed damage and the heavier miss penalty.

A level 4 vitrolic = 25 + 2.5 = 27.5 now ; 12.5 + 1.9 later = 14.4 later
A level 4 fireball = 31.5 + 2.8 = 34.3 now.

Hmm... yea. 7 less damage now for 14 damage next turn can be a good trade.


I calculated a few of the higher spells. Correctly this time.



> Spell bombardment will, on average, no matter the spell being cast, add less damage, on the first instance of damage, than the dragon's +Cha feature or the evoker's +Int. However, the big advantage of spell bombardment is that it can add damage to _anything_ and add it more often, and several of the best damage spells at high levels are neither elemental nor evocation.



Agreed.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

Okay, to make a start at commenting on spells . . . 

I more or less agree with you on cantrips.

You are generous to witch bolt. Its up-front damage (6.5 average) is low compared to magic missile's (10.5), and the ongoing damage is only one die size larger that fire bolt, meaning that you have to get the added damage four times for it to pull even with magic missile and fire bolt spam. That's without factoring in the chance to miss, that an enemy can simply walk out of range to break the effect, and that it requires concentration. Except for that, the 1st-level ratings are good.

You overrate crown of madness, as well. You are virtually never going to get more than one redirected attack out of it--note that it's "a melee attack" and not the full attack action. The DM doesn't even necessarily have to make the character attack with a weapon. So you have to ask if, with a 2nd-level slot and concentration, you couldn't do more damage and/or exert more control by casting something else. The answer is almost always that you could.

I've never had the chance to try out gust of wind in play. How does it do? I has always seemed decidedly inferior to web to me.

You rate mirror image way too low. In a group that has regular combat encounters, it is one of the strongest spells in the game. In addition to protecting you, it can put your group way, _way_ up in the action economy.

That's all I've got for 2nd level.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> You are generous to witch bolt. Its up-front damage (6.5 average) is low compared to magic missile's (10.5), and the ongoing damage is only one die size larger that fire bolt, meaning that you have to get the added damage four times for it to pull even with magic missile and fire bolt spam. That's without factoring in the chance to miss, that an enemy can simply walk out of range to break the effect, and that it requires concentration. Except for that, the 1st-level ratings are good.



You're not counting that firebolt can miss.
Also, at level 1, there isn't much to compete with concentration.

But your right about the range, i'll move it down a notch.



> You overrate crown of madness, as well. You are virtually never going to get more than one redirected attack out of it--note that it's "a melee attack" and not the full attack action. The DM doesn't even necessarily have to make the character attack with a weapon. So you have to ask if, with a 2nd-level slot and concentration, you couldn't do more damage and/or exert more control by casting something else. The answer is almost always that you could.



I was going to disagree with you, but I just noticed it says "humaiod".

So yea... down it goes.



> I've never had the chance to try out gust of wind in play. How does it do? I have always seemed decidedly inferior to web to me.



Is has denial-on-miss.  So even a high Str barbarian/paladin takes an extra turn to get to you.   It also moves with you, so if you move back 30, they need to move 60'.

1 save and they can run right though web.  Though it's a better effect if they get caught.



> You rate mirror image way too low. In a group that has regular combat encounters, it is one of the strongest spells in the game. In addition to protecting you, it can put your group way, _way_ up in the action economy.



Mirror image is self.  So it only protects you.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> You're not counting that firebolt can miss.
> Also, at level 1, there isn't much to compete with concentration.
> 
> But your right about the range, i'll move it down a notch.




I was counting that fire bolt can miss; I just didn't mention it because it doesn't matter much. It just means that fire bolt spam is less swingy. I mean, if you really do the math, sans resistance and immunity:

Witch bolt does 6.5 on a hit, 13 on a crit, and 0 on a miss. If we assume 60/5/35% chance of those, respectively, it comes out to 4.55 average damage. The ongoing effect does 6.5 average damage, but only if the initial attack landed, and it cannot crit, so it averages 4.225 damage under our assumptions.

Magic missile averages 10.5 damage. Fire bolt does 5.5 on a hit, 11 on a crit, and 0 on a miss. Using the same assumptions, it averages out to 3.85 damage.

So then, witch bolt starts out 6.05 damage in the hole, and it gains an average of 0.375 per turn after the first. It therefore takes just over _sixteen_ turns of witch bolt's ongoing damage for it to catch up, and, of course, it doesn't last that long. I guess you were right that my rough estimate was off. 

You are correct that there aren't overwhelmingly better concentration options at first spell level, but part of the finesse of playing sorcerer is picking spells not just for a level or two. All that said, I think violet is the right place for witch bolt, since there are conceivable ways that metamagic can make it more fun.



> Is has denial-on-miss.  So even a high Str barbarian/paladin takes an extra turn to get to you.   It also moves with you, so if you move back 30, they need to move 60'.
> 
> 1 save and they can run right though web.  Though it's a better effect if they get caught.




Web creates difficult terrain, so it's not many characters who can stroll through unaffected, and it slows them going any direction, not just toward you. And there's the better save type.

That's a good point about gust of wind moving with you, and I'm not arguing against your evaluation by any means, but what has always concerned me is the 10' width. I guess it depends on how much dungeon crawling you do.



> Mirror image is self.  So it only protects you.




Uh . . . true, but not addressing either point I was driving at. Mirror image is phenomenally good at protecting you. In most practical scenarios, it is the equivalent of 4-6 added AC, averaged through the first ten attacks, and it provides more on the earlier attacks. It never goes obsolete, scales with the sorcerer's Dex, and scales with attackers' chance to hit. At the upper extreme, it can be worth 12 AC or more against the first attack. (If, for example, the enemy has an 80% chance to hit you, and if you have three illusions and thus only a 25% chance to be targeted, your chance of being targeted and hit is only 20%. That's the equivalent of making the attack roll go from requiring a 5+ to hit to requiring a 17+.) Heck, it doesn't stop functioning if you're incapacitated, restrained, or even unconscious.

And, again, in protecting you, mirror image can absorb a _lot_ of enemy actions, which can quickly turn a fight in your group's favor.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> That's a good point about gust of wind moving with you, and I'm not arguing against your evaluation by any means, but what has always concerned me is the 10' width. I guess it depends on how much dungeon crawling you do.



Gust of wind is 10x60
vs web's 20x20, which isn't terribly hard to walk around either.



> Uh . . . true, but not addressing either point I was driving at. Mirror image is phenomenally good at protecting you. In most practical scenarios, it is the equivalent of 4-6 added AC, averaged through the first ten attacks, and it provides more on the earlier attacks. It never goes obsolete, scales with the sorcerer's Dex, and scales with attackers' chance to hit. At the upper extreme, it can be worth 12 AC or more against the first attack. (If, for example, the enemy has an 80% chance to hit you, and if you have three illusions and thus only a 25% chance to be targeted, your chance of being targeted and hit is only 20%. That's the equivalent of making the attack roll go from requiring a 5+ to hit to requiring a 17+.) Heck, it doesn't stop functioning if you're incapacitated, restrained, or even unconscious.
> 
> And, again, in protecting you, mirror image can absorb a _lot_ of enemy actions, which can quickly turn a fight in your group's favor.



I'm not seeing it.
Anything that misses your duplicate would have missed you anyways. Raising your dex doesn't change that.

So this basicly absorbs 3 attacks, which is really good, but only if you are attacked several times in a minute. Which can be great for anyone regularly taking attacks (arcane trickster, eldrich knight, abjuration wizard), but I don't see many sorcerer's rushing in to tank (except stone, but that's still UA). So i don't see much use out of this. Much better to protect your whole party with a web, gust of wind, or blind. Or levitate/invisible yourself out of danger, or kill the enemy with shatter or scorching ray.

Also, multi-attack means it doesn't scale well. Since it will be taken out quicker.  Though no concentration keeps it from competing with things like twin greater invisibility.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> Gust of wind is 10x60
> vs web's 20x20, which isn't terribly hard to walk around either.




I don't want to belabor the point, but any creature that passes the Str save only uses five feet of movement to gust of wind, if it is smart enough to step out perpendicular to the stream. A creature that passes the Dex save of web will expend ten to twenty feet getting out, no matter which way it goes.



> I'm not seeing it.
> Anything that misses your duplicate would have missed you anyways. Raising your dex doesn't change that.




Anything that misses your duplicate does not destroy your duplicate, which increases your functional AC on subsequent attacks. The Dex scaling is protection against low-level mooks throwing rocks to destroy your defenses, which in turn makes your defenses stronger against bigger threats.



> So this basicly absorbs 3 attacks, which is really good, but only if you are attacked several times in a minute. Which can be great for anyone regularly taking attacks (arcane trickster, eldrich knight, abjuration wizard), but I don't see many sorcerer's rushing in to tank (except stone, but that's still UA).




First, the protection is front loaded, so you don't necessarily have to be attacked several times. If an enemy has a 60% chance to hit or crit you, mirror image is worth 9 AC against the first attack. Second, you contradict this point yourself when you bring multiattack into it. The more common multiattack becomes as you go up in level, the more opportunities mirror image has to eat attacks. Third, you don't always have control over when and how many times you are attacked.

I mean, rephrase it thus: The first attack made against you in the next minute has a 75% chance of failing to target you and being wasted. The second has _at least_ a 65% chance. The third has _at least_ a 50% chance. Subsequent attacks may also have a chance to fail.

You are saying that _that_ spell, from a 2nd-level slot and without using concentration, rates no better than black?



> So i don't see much use out of this. Much better to protect your whole party with a web, gust of wind, or blind. Or levitate/invisible yourself out of danger,




Concentration, concentration, concentration, concentration/concentration. Also, Dex save and eventual Str check, Str save and doesn't affect ranged attacks, repeated Con saves and only affects two creatures out of a 2nd-level slot, limits your mobility and doesn't affect ranged attacks/ends if you attack or cast a spell. Also, disadvantage is a weaker effect than mirror image in most practical situations.



> or kill the enemy with shatter or scorching ray.




It can be hard to kill the enemy before combat starts. You are always in a position to target yourself.

For a demonstration, suppose we were in a sorcerer duel and your strategy were to burn me down. I have prepared by casting mirror image on myself. The gates open, we step out, you win initiative and cast scorching ray. Each ray has a 60/5/35% chance to hit/crit/miss against both me and my duplicates, so any that make it to me deal an average of 5.05 damage.

The first ray will be diverted 75% of the time. 5.05 * 0.25 = 1.26 damage to me, on average. If the attack was directed at me, or if it was directed at an illusion and missed, I will still have three duplicates. 0.25 + 0.75 * 0.35 = 51% chance I still have three dupes. 0.51 * 0.75 + 0.49 * 0.65 = 70% chance the next ray is diverted.

5.05 * 0.3 = 1.52 average damage. [Fast forward through the math.] 64.5% chance the next ray is diverted.

5.05 * 0.355 = 1.79 average damage. Mirror image just reduced the average damage of scorching ray from 15.15 to 4.57, a reduction of almost 70%. At third level, I should have around 19 hp, so you have knocked off about a quarter of my health. 93.3% of the time, I will still have at least one image at this point. I am going to win this duel.

If you rely on shield in this situation, all else being equal, the average total from scorching ray will be 9.45 damage, half your health. That makes mirror image (in this situation) worth just a little over twice what shield is, which is fitting for a 2nd-level spell. Except that's with all the attacks coming in one round, which is optimal for shield, and mirror image will most likely still be having an effect in the next round.



> Also, multi-attack means it doesn't scale well. Since it will be taken out quicker.  Though no concentration keeps it from competing with things like twin greater invisibility.




Mirror image scales with the number of attacks that are leveled in your direction, up to the point where all of the images are extinguished. Multiattack becoming more common makes it more likely that you will be attacked multiple times without being able to get to safety between the attacks, which only increases the value of mirror image. Further, every alternative defensive/control spell you named above is concentration. Concentration spells suffer _much more_ from multiattack if you are making saves properly.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> I don't want to belabor the point, but any creature that passes the Str save only uses five feet of movement to gust of wind, if it is smart enough to step out perpendicular to the stream. A creature that passes the Dex save of web will expend ten to twenty feet getting out, no matter which way it goes.



While we are belaboring... 
Web, centered on the target, takes extra 10'. The other 10' was going to be spent moving in that direction anyways.
Gust takes an extra 5' side step out and a 5' side step to get back to you = 10'. Of course, that only counts if you are their target. But you can reposition it for next turns.




> Anything that misses your duplicate does not destroy your duplicate, which increases your functional AC on subsequent attacks. The Dex scaling is protection against low-level mooks throwing rocks to destroy your defenses, which in turn makes your defenses stronger against bigger threats.



Still irrelevent. Dex scaling protects you _exactly_ the same amount without it as much as it does with it.
With 1 dex, it can absorb 3 attacks.
With 100 dex, it can absorb 3 attacks.



> First, the protection is front loaded, so you don't necessarily have to be attacked several times.



Which is the biggest downside. The fact that it can be wasted.
Enemies see you protected and can simply ignore you until it's gone. Or you can cast it, kick down a door, and fine no one on the other side.



> For a demonstration, suppose we were in a sorcerer duel and your strategy were to burn me down. I have prepared by casting mirror image on myself. The gates open, we step out, you win initiative and cast scorching ray.
> <snip>
> I am going to win this duel.



Nope.
You spent 1 action and a level 2 slot to block block 3 attacks.
They spent 1 action and a level 2 slot to make 3 attacks.

However, there's a good chance at least one of their first-turn sorching rays will land an extra 0.5 damage compared to your firebolt (a bit pedantic, yes. But magic missile won't work because you both have shield).

Also, mirror image only works if you know when the gates will open ahead of time. If you cast it, and there's a minute delay, you're out your slot.



> mirror image will most likely still be having an effect in the next round.



If mirror image is effective the next round, that means it wasn't the first round.
It's 3 attacks max, no matter how you cut it.



> Mirror image scales with the number of attacks that are leveled in your direction



Stiill a flat 3. Though you are correct that it makes it easier to not waste.

Perhaps a more poinent point would be that damage-per-attack scales. A kobold does 5 damage (*3 =15), a black dragon does 19 (*3 = 57).
I'll move it up to blue.


----------



## Blue

Reading about Mirror Image and how much it protects you against the first attack leaves out part of it.  If the attack would miss you but would hit your mirror image, then you have chances to lose an image from attacks that would have a 0% chance to hit you.  Ignoring the ablative nature of it vs. those types of attacks makes it appear more powerful than it is.

At the least, assume Dragon Bloodline or Mage Armor, which means +3 AC for the caster over the images.  That's 15% of all attacks that can take out an image that would have missed in the first place.  And it's easy to boost AC from there.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> While we are belaboring...
> Web, centered on the target, takes extra 10'. The other 10' was going to be spent moving in that direction anyways.
> Gust takes an extra 5' side step out and a 5' side step to get back to you = 10'. Of course, that only counts if you are their target. But you can reposition it for next turns.




If you know which direction it's going, you don't center the web on it. 



> Still irrelevent. Dex scaling protects you _exactly_ the same amount without it as much as it does with it.
> With 1 dex, it can absorb 3 attacks.
> With 100 dex, it can absorb 3 attacks.




With 1 Dex, it absorbs 3 attacks no matter how inaccurate and weak. With 100 Dex, it absorbs three accurate, probably very powerful attacks. That is scaling, my friend. Without that, you would lose images to attacks that would have missed you anyway.



> Which is the biggest downside. The fact that it can be wasted.




I'm sorry, but this really feels like grasping at straws. The biggest downside of mirror image is that it provides the most defense against the earliest attacks? With as brief as combat usually is in this game, that is a strength, not a weakness.



> Enemies see you protected and can simply ignore you until it's gone.




Mirror image just reduced the damage the sorcerer takes by 100%. In practice, I have never seen a DM do this. In fact, I once had a couple of the thugs we were fighting become so frustrated with how difficult I was to hit that they kept targeting me. In practice, I have also only rarely seen a combat last more than a minute.



> Or you can cast it, kick down a door, and fine no one on the other side.




Then I have misjudged the situation. I've seen players do it with dozens of spells.



> Nope.
> You spent 1 action and a level 2 slot to block block 3 attacks.
> They spent 1 action and a level 2 slot to make 3 attacks.




Their level-2 spell slot bought them 4.57 damage. Mine prevented 10.58, and will most likely have an effect in at least one subsequent round. This is not an equivalence, and it only has the appearance of one because I set up the combatants to be equal. Mirror image will continue to be a 2nd-level spell when it is deflecting multiattacks from a CR 5 cambion, a CR 10 aboleth, or a CR 17 death knight.



> However, there's a good chance at least one of their first-turn sorching rays will land an extra 0.5 damage compared to your firebolt (a bit pedantic, yes. But magic missile won't work because you both have shield).




Which is why I would cast scorching ray right back. Even if he uses shield, he will be half dead when I'm still at 75% health. What does he do then? Another scorching ray? The same casting of mirror image will reduce it to 7.66 average damage, a 49% reduction, even if I don't use shield. 54% of the time, I will still have at least one duplicate left, and the total damage reduction done by that one spell slot is now 18.07. Because it scaled in value with the number of attacks directed at me. (If 18.07 seems impossible because the damage of the average ray is 5.05, bear in mind that that latter number includes the chance to miss. Rays which would have hit me--the rays which the duplicates intercept--average 7.77 damage.) On average, 2.1 rays have now missed, 2.33 have hit illusions, and the remaining 1.57 have hit me.

Cast shatter instead? His spell DC ought to be about 15, while I've got a +4 to my Con save, and that gives me a 50% chance to succeed. 3d8 on a failed save, half on a successful one makes an average damage of 10.125. Mirror image just reduced the damage I took by 33% compared to his unaltered scorching ray, and I still have as many duplicates as I started the round with.



> Also, mirror image only works if you know when the gates will open ahead of time. If you cast it, and there's a minute delay, you're out your slot.




There are so many "if" clauses you can use with any number of spells.

Sleep only works your targets have low HP. If you cast it and don't roll high enough to match anything's HP, you're out your slot.

Suggestion only works if the target can understand you. If you cast it and the target doesn't speak your language, you're out your slot.

Fireball only works if you can see a space more than 20 feet from your party members. If you cast it and there's not enough room--well, you'll still do damage, but you might cause a TPK.

You can do it for virtually any spell in the game. Does mirror image still have value if not cast at the optimal moment? Yes. Is the optimal moment reasonably frequent anyway? Yes.



> If mirror image is effective the next round, that means it wasn't the first round.




Horse hockey! (Yes, I went full Sherman T. Potter.) In the demonstration, it reduced the average incoming damage by 70%. That it will most likely continue reducing damage in subsequent rounds is hardly evidence that it was not effective. Yes, you will sometimes take damage; that's the nature of the game. Show me the 2nd-level, non-concentration spell that protects you from 100% of attacks for the entire combat. Show me the one that is more effective than mirror image against the first attack, the second, the third, the fourth, or the fifth.



			
				Blue said:
			
		

> Reading about Mirror Image and how much it protects you against the first attack leaves out part of it. If the attack would miss you but would hit your mirror image, then you have chances to lose an image from attacks that would have a 0% chance to hit you. Ignoring the ablative nature of it vs. those types of attacks makes it appear more powerful than it is.
> 
> At the least, assume Dragon Bloodline or Mage Armor, which means +3 AC for the caster over the images. That's 15% of all attacks that can take out an image that would have missed in the first place. And it's easy to boost AC from there.




I won't "assume" the +3 from mage armor, because it is the caster's choice whether to accept that antergy, though you are quite right that it exists. Still, I will be happy to do the math--I long ago built a calculator in a spreadsheet that accepts all these variables.

Baseline 65% chance to hit or crit both the caster and the illusions:
Mirror image is worth 9.75 AC on the first attack, 9.11 on the second, 8.39 on the third, 7.35 on the fourth, 6.14 on the fifth, and it averages 5.62 over the first ten attacks. 23% chance at least one image remains after ten attacks.

With mage armor, 50% chance to hit or crit the caster, 65% chance the illusions:
Mirror image is worth 7.5 AC on the first attack, 7.01 on the second, 6.45 on the third, 5.65 on the fourth, 4.72 on the fifth, and an average of 4.32 over the first ten. 23% chance at least one image remains after ten attacks (no change).

Mage armor: 3 AC
Mirror image: 5.62 AC, averaged over ten attacks
Mage armor + mirror image: 7.32 AC, averaged over ten attacks

For a wild or a storm, I would recommend keeping one or the other but not both, since the diminishing returns are significant and you can always use another spell known. Use your judgment based on your campaign, but I generally prefer mirror image. For a dragon, there is less opportunity cost to keep mirror image, so it depends how much defense you feel you need.

Now, for fun, boss fight! 80% chance to hit or crit both caster and images:
Mirror image is worth 12 AC on the first attack, 11.04 on the second, 9.91 on the third, 8.10 on the fourth, and 6.12 on the fifth, and it averages 5.86 over ten attacks. The chance of at least one illusion surviving is 10%.

Boss fight, with mage armor, 65% chance to hit or crit the caster, 80% the illusions:
Mirror image is worth 9.75 AC on the first attack, 8.97 on the second, 8.05 on the third, 6.58 on the fourth, and 4.97 on the fifth, and it averages 4.76 over ten attacks. (Still 10% chance of a dupe hanging around.)

Mage armor: 3 AC
Mirror image: 5.86 AC, averaged over ten attacks
Mage armor + mirror image: 7.97 AC, averaged over ten attacks

There is less loss from the combination of the two effects here, suggesting that dragons might be best served by holding on to mirror image and only using it against especially powerful opponents. Still the player's judgment call.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> If you know which direction it's going, you don't center the web on it.



Fair.
I do agree that web probably has the edge over gust in more cases.  But they're still pretty close.



> Then I have misjudged the situation. I've seen players do it with dozens of spells.



So have I.  However, I've never seen someone waste a scorching ray/hold person/shatter/ect...  because you see the target before you cast.
(ok, i've seen a wasted fireball once, after a darkness + hide + misty step left everyone thinking the enemy was still there, but point still stands).


> In the demonstration, it reduced the average incoming damage by 70%



And it reduced your damage output by 73%.  (5.5 firebolt instead of 21 scorching ray * same to-hit).  Assuming you correctly pre-cast the spell.

It also has negative synergy with all the sub-classes (Wilds tides of chaos, storms tempetuous magic and heart of storm, and dragon has extra AC).

Anyways, I already moved it up to blue.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

I guess you've never seen someone cast scorching ray on a fire-immune fiend. (In his defense, he didn't recognize it as a fiend. Not in his defense, that's because he was so eager to blast something up that he didn't take the time to let someone do a religion check.) I've also seen things like a paladin using her highest-level smite on a creature that had about 3 HP left. There are plenty of ways to mismanage resources.

If I correctly pre-cast mirror image, the use of that slot need not affect my DPR until the third round of combat, depending on how I played it. You have two 2nd-level slots at 3rd level, and you can create a third through flexible casting. You can actually create a fourth if you crunch three of your 1st-level slots; that would probably be ill advised, though. So I could still cast scorching ray in both of the first two rounds of combat, which is just about enough to defeat a 3rd-level sorcerer with shield.

That's still talking about the spell in the context of 3rd-level characters, as well. A 2nd-level slot becomes fairly inconsequential pretty quickly. The more spell slots you have, and the higher level, the less mirror image affects your DPR.

The negative synergy with dragon is real--that's what they get for taking the dumb subclass--though I'm not convinced that it's bad enough for them to forego mirror image altogether. The other negative synergies are pretty tenuous. By the same rationale, you could say that any spell cast out of combat has negative synergy with those features. You could also say that any spell which does not deal thunder or lightning damage has negative synergy with heart of the storm, and if the sorcerer avoids spells for that reason, he or she is left with a very short list. The wild and storm negative synergies are lessened as you gain more slots, as well.

Anyway, I'll leave it alone, though I do think the spell is underrated even at blue. I appreciate your guides, mellored.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> The more spell slots you have, and the higher level, the less mirror image affects your DPR.



Agreed.  Though unlike a wizard, you can use that slot for more SP.  It's not like you'll be stuck casting a level 2 scorching ray at level 20.  It can instead be empowering cone of cold, or help sqeeze off one extra twined greater invisibility.


> The wild and storm negative synergies are lessened as you gain more slots, as well.



Agreed.


> Anyway, I'll leave it alone, though I do think the spell is underrated even at blue.



Disagree.
It's a strong spell when it works, sure, but I just see it as also being a bit niche.  Barring 1v1 situations, most sorcerers just won't take that many attacks on any sort of regular basis.  They will be in the back, supporting their tankier melee allies with concentration spells they don't want to lose.   Most of the time, I see them poping out long enough to shoot a spell, and ducking back behind a wall.

Now, if your playing a 20 dex melee storm sorcerer, who spams booming blade and quicken thunderwave (not really worried about hitting), then yes, sky blue, possibly gold.



> I appreciate your guides, mellored.



I appreciate your feedback.


----------



## Ovarwa

This conversation about Mirror Image has been a great subtopic.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

Moving on to 3rd-level spells . . .

You could bump fireball down, or bump lightning bolt up. It's easy to say that fireball can hit more enemies, but lightning bolt is usually more useful indoors. It's also more viable as a single-target spell. They also don't scale terribly well, so its seems like the light-blue rating might only hold up for a couple of levels.

Is haste really light blue without twinned spell and a suitable party make-up?

I think you overrate both Melf's minute meteors and stinking cloud a little bit. The problem with Melf's is the amount of time that it takes to deal all of its damage; it's 12d6 damage overall, but predicting the combat two rounds out is difficult, so there is a good chance that some of that damage will be lost. Frequently you are better served taking the front-loaded 8d6 from a fireball or lightning bolt, even if only on a portion of the enemies. The scaling only makes the problem worse, without increasing the per-round damage.

Stinking cloud has a few problems. It's a Con save, its area is heavily obscured, it does nothing to slow movement, and a fair number of creatures are immune to it. Net effect, it's sort of a crapshoot whether any enemies are affected, your allies will have difficulty attacking them while they're in the cloud, and then they'll just walk out in one turn. It can consume a few actions in the first round, but it's not really effective control beyond that.

Then the big one, you underrate slow by a mile. Its effects are massive--halved movement, -2 to AC and Dex saves, no reactions, a choice between actions and bonus actions, only one attack on the victim's turn, a 50% chance to delay or deny any 1-action spell. For anyone who doesn't have careful spell, it is the better option than hypnotic pattern, and unlike that spell, it doesn't require a change in the way your side plays.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> Moving on to 3rd-level spells . . .
> 
> You could bump fireball down, or bump lightning bolt up. It's easy to say that fireball can hit more enemies, but lightning bolt is usually more useful indoors. It's also more viable as a single-target spell. They also don't scale terribly well, so its seems like the light-blue rating might only hold up for a couple of levels.



I havn't noticed many times i wanted lighting bolt over fireball.
Even in a hallway, indoors, you could effecivly have fireball be 5' x 40' and not hit your allies you're standing behind.
It is better at hitting single target's though.



> Is haste really light blue without twinned spell and a suitable party make-up?



If you just count damage, no.  2d6+4 is on par with melf's, but it also adds protection and maneuverability.  Also useful for hit-and-run tactics.  Booming blade and disengage.  Or just for double speed *  2 dashes = 180' uncatchable.  It's flexibility is a big benifit with sorcerer's limited list.
But i'll mention party makeup.



> The problem with Melf's is the amount of time that it takes to deal all of its damage; it's 12d6 damage overall, but predicting the combat two rounds out is difficult, so there is a good chance that some of that damage will be lost. Frequently you are better served taking the front-loaded 8d6 from a fireball or lightning bolt, even if only on a portion of the enemies. The scaling only makes the problem worse, without increasing the per-round damage.



Agreed.
But 12d6 (50% more than fireball) is still high enough to keep it blue, at least when you get it.



> Stinking cloud has a few problems. It's a Con save, its area is heavily obscured, it does nothing to slow movement, and a fair number of creatures are immune to it. Net effect, it's sort of a crapshoot whether any enemies are affected, your allies will have difficulty attacking them while they're in the cloud, and then they'll just walk out in one turn. It can consume a few actions in the first round, but it's not really effective control beyond that.



There's no difficulty hitting.  Not seeing the enemy, and them not seeing you cancles out.  Of course, that also means it doesn't stop arrows from the other side.
But i'll move it down.  I was thinking about standing in it with cafeful a bit too much, giving extra chances to stun targets.



> Then the big one, you underrate slow by a mile. Its effects are massive--halved movement, -2 to AC and Dex saves, no reactions, a choice between actions and bonus actions, only one attack on the victim's turn, a 50% chance to delay or deny any 1-action spell. For anyone who doesn't have careful spell, it is the better option than hypnotic pattern, and unlike that spell, it doesn't require a change in the way your side plays.



Fair.  I'll move it up to blue.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

Okay, I agree with most of what you said. The limitation on fireball indoors is needing to be able to see a center point at least 20 feet away to avoid nuking your own party. So winding passages, umber hulk ambushes, even a simple 20 x 20 room can make fireball unusable. Combat also tends to be close quarters indoors, so if you don't roll well on initiative, you might never have the opportunity to cast fireball.

Regarding stinking cloud, I apologize for saying "attacking" when I meant "targeting." It sounds like you are treating heavy obscurity as though it only gives advantage and disadvantage. However, the first sentence runs, "A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely" (PHB 183). Thus any spell that requires the caster see the target cannot be cast into the area. As far as attacks, per the rules on unseen attacker and targets, the DM might rule that your side has to guess where the targets are when attacking into the cloud (PHB 194-5).


----------



## mellored

A 20x20 twisted hallway fighting a umber hulk is the *perfect* time to cast careful stinking cloud.  Blocking vision goes both ways, and it goes around corners.

Also, if your concentrating on stinking cloud, your probably don't need line of sight for other spells.  You'll mostly be tossing firebolt (no disadvantage, even in melee, since 1 advantage cancels them all).

But that is _careful_ stinking cloud.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

Well, blocking vision would help with the confusing gaze, to be sure, but an umber hulk has termorsense, so I qua DM would rule that it would not suffer the penalties of being blinded the way the party would. With a high Con, it has a reasonable chance to pass the saves, as well. You should have just lightning bolted it in the face.

Even if you are flinging fire bolts at its 18 AC, you have blocked your allies from casting spells and using features that require sight. Vicious mockery, Tasha's hideous laughter, sacred flame, healing word, hunter's mark, hex, chromatic orb, magic missile, protection fighting style, barbarian's danger sense, cutting words, uncanny dodge, a number of channel divinities--those all are affected and all have common applications.

That is the generic problem, any time you cast a spell that creates a heavily obscured area, whether with careful spell or not.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> Well, blocking vision would help with the confusing gaze, to be sure, but an umber hulk has termorsense



Missed that.
So yea, the umber hulk would have advantage. So not the best option there.



> Even if you are flinging fire bolts at its 18 AC, you have blocked your allies from casting spells and using features that require sight. Vicious mockery, Tasha's hideous laughter, sacred flame, healing word, hunter's mark, hex, chromatic orb, magic missile, protection fighting style, barbarian's danger sense, cutting words, uncanny dodge, a number of channel divinities--those all are affected and all have common applications.
> 
> That is the generic problem, any time you cast a spell that creates a heavily obscured area, whether with careful spell or not.



Yes, but it works both sides. And you have the prio-knowlage of the effect. So flaming sphere, spiritual weapon, moonbeam, polymporh/summon something with tremorsense. Heck, melf's as a bonus actoin, and hide as your normal action.

Not that it would make it worth while by itself (darkness is a level lower, and purple). But the ability to stand in the middle of a control zone is great, and it's much bigger than web.


----------



## InspetorG

I have some 'Wild' questions, here...

First:

Would it be worthwhile, with a DM who is a bit hesitant with Wild Magic Surges, to frame the matter as you are willing to concede expecting a Roll after every lvl1+ spell you cast in exchange for having the Player retain the option to choose to roll on the Wild Surge Table after Tides of Chaos in order to recharge it?

The Player can thus ensure fewer rolls due to normal casting, easing any DM or fellow Player fears, and judiciously use Tides until the party gets hooked on the Clutch-factor.

Second:

If you use Tides to get Advantage on casting a Scorching Ray, does the Advantage apply to all 3 Rays? Or just one?
(The next part is about the Action Economy, and assumed your DM agreed to the above mechanics.)
And if its just one, can you roll on the Wild Table to recharge Advantage BETWEEN attack rolls for the Rays?

RAW, the rules for Tides do not indicate an action cost or timing, just DM fiat.

Third:

Has anyone did the Maths on a Wild Sorcerer as a Controller with Tides+Bend Luck factored into the various Saves or Checks?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## mellored

InspetorG said:


> First:
> 
> Would it be worthwhile, with a DM who is a bit hesitant with Wild Magic Surges, to frame the matter as you are willing to concede expecting a Roll after every lvl1+ spell you cast in exchange for having the Player retain the option to choose to roll on the Wild Surge Table after Tides of Chaos in order to recharge it?
> 
> The Player can thus ensure fewer rolls due to normal casting, easing any DM or fellow Player fears, and judiciously use Tides until the party gets hooked on the Clutch-factor.



Rolling after each spell has a very low chance of happening.  You could go though the first 3 levels without a single surge.  It's easy enough to remove without issue.



> If you use Tides to get Advantage on casting a Scorching Ray, does the Advantage apply to all 3 Rays? Or just one?
> (The next part is about the Action Economy, and assumed your DM agreed to the above mechanics.)
> And if its just one, can you roll on the Wild Table to recharge Advantage BETWEEN attack rolls for the Rays?
> 
> RAW, the rules for Tides do not indicate an action cost or timing, just DM fiat.



Tiides works for 1 attack.  Whichever one you want.
You can surge immidiatly AFTER the spell is cast, recharging it for the next spell.  

So you can use it for a scorching ray, and surge and recharge immidiatly afterwards.  But you can only use it for 1 ray.



> Has anyone did the Maths on a Wild Sorcerer as a Controller with Tides+Bend Luck factored into the various Saves or Checks?



They work very well.
Tides of chaos doesn't help land control spells.  It's only for your rolls.

But heighten and bend luck can give you a very strong chance (about -7 to the roll) of landing a spell.  Though it can eat though your SP quickly so make sure it's a good one.
Fortunatly, bend luck is a bit harder to waste.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

4th-level spells:

I think you are a little generous to wall of fire. It has a couple of noteworthy shortcomings. For as much damage as it does, you are only rarely going to deal damage to any individual creature more than once in the absence of forced movement. It is also expressly opaque, which limits spellcasting through it and leads to guess targeting of attacks. I'm not sure why you say that the spell has "control and damage." Are you looking at the deterrence effect as control?

Vitriolic sphere is underrated. It has several advantages over fireball, beyond the synergy with spell bombardment. It deals more damage, scales better, deals a less-resisted damage type, and doesn't burn down the house. It also has a small advantage with careful spell.

If we assume a 35% chance for a successful save, the average-damage comparison looks like this:

4th level
Fireball - 26.0
Vitriolic sphere - 20.6 immediate + 8.1 delayed = 28.75 total

5th level
Fireball - 28.9
Vitriolic sphere - 24.75 immediate + 8.1 delayed = 32.9 total

6th level
Fireball - 31.8
Vitriolic sphere - 28.9 immediate + 8.1 delayed = 37 total

By 6th level, even a fire-dragon sorcerer gets more total damage from vitriolic sphere.

7th level
Fireball - 34.7
Vitriolic sphere - 33 immediate + 8.1 delayed = 41.1 total

8th level
Fireball - 37.5
Vitriolic Sphere - 37.1 immediate + 8.1 delayed = 45.3 total

Note that vitriolic sphere has all but pulled even in initial damage at this point, so the delayed damage is icing. The two questions that will always enter into this comparison are, "How much damage now is damage later worth?" and "What is the danger of delaying damage?" They are difficult questions to answer in a white room, but they become less relevant as you go up in spell level.

In my experience, a spell like fireball is almost always cast early in a combat, while enemies are still clustered together and allies are not mixed in with them. In those cases, the delay of damage with vitriolic sphere is less consequential, since the enemies are likely fresh enough that they would not have been one-shot by a fireball.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> 4th-level spells:
> 
> I think you are a little generous to wall of fire. It has a couple of noteworthy shortcomings. For as much damage as it does, you are only rarely going to deal damage to any individual creature more than once in the absence of forced movement. It is also expressly opaque, which limits spellcasting through it and leads to guess targeting of attacks. I'm not sure why you say that the spell has "control and damage." Are you looking at the deterrence effect as control?



Hmm...
For some reason, I thought there it reduced movement going through it.

I must have mixed it up with another spell.  I'll bump it down.



> If we assume a 35% chance for a successful save, the average-damage comparison looks like this
> 
> 4th level
> Fireball - 26.0
> Vitriolic sphere - 20.6 immediate + 8.1 delayed = 28.75 total
> 
> 5th level
> Fireball - 28.9
> Vitriolic sphere - 24.75 immediate + 8.1 delayed = 32.9 total
> *Cone of Cold - 29.7*
> 
> 6th level
> Fireball - 31.8
> Vitriolic sphere - 28.9 immediate + 8.1 delayed = 37 total
> *Chain Lighting - 37.125 (+targeting)*
> 
> 7th level
> Fireball - 34.7
> Vitriolic sphere - 33 immediate + 8.1 delayed = 41.1 total
> *Firestorm - **31.7625*
> 
> 8th level
> Fireball - 37.5
> Vitriolic Sphere - 37.1 immediate + 8.1 delayed = 45.3 total
> *Sunburst - *34.65 (+blind)



That does scale nicely....
Though I think a 40% would be more accurate, which would hurt vitriolic a bit more than the others.



> In my experience, a spell like fireball is almost always cast early in a combat, while enemies are still clustered together and allies are not mixed in with them. In those cases, the delay of damage with vitriolic sphere is less consequential, since the enemies are likely fresh enough that they would not have been one-shot by a fireball.



Fair.  But it's still damage now > damage later.  And there just isn't enough difference to make up for it.  And being able to be used in level 3 and 4 slots > just level 4 slots.  So it's still black at level 4.

But, yea, that's some pretty good scaling.  Particularly since it's 1 blast that covers several levels, giving you room for other stuff.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> That does scale nicely....
> Though I think a 40% would be more accurate, which would hurt vitriolic a bit more than the others.




Sounds to me like another way of saying that vitriolic sphere scales better with your spellcasting mod. 

I use a 65% chance to deal full damage on Dex saves based on observations of ability-score trends in the monster manual. If you are up against a random enemy from that book, about which enemy you know nothing, and if you have a 60% chance of dealing full damage by picking a random ability score (or AC) to target, Dex will, on average, deal full damage about 66.5% of the time. When I'm just scratching something out, I round to the nearest 5% for ease of calculation, making Int/AC 70%, Dex 65%, Wis/Str/Cha 55%, and Con 45%. I use this as a yardstick to compare spells and attacks across ability scores and AC. I would thus calculate cone of cold and sunburst differently than you have above, but that's beside the point.



> Fair.  But it's still damage now > damage later.  And there just isn't enough difference to make up for it.  And being able to be used in level 3 and 4 slots > just level 4 slots.  So it's still black at level 4.




I don't disagree with "damage now > damage later" as a rule of thumb, but it's awfully hard to say how devalued damage later ought to be considered. Especially when it comes to damage later within a round, value can vary widely depending on the initiative order. Thus, the consideration to me is not whether, at 4th level, vitriolic sphere's additional damage is worth the loss in immediate damage; it is whether the initial-damage advantage of fireball justifies its retention under the sorcerer's stringent spells-known structure, when vitriolic sphere is clearly the better spell at higher levels.

This is actually one reason why I consider lightning bolt on par with fireball, as well. It allows you to retain a third-level AoE without the redundancy of keeping two 20-foot spheres known, and it gives you greater versatility in spell form at higher levels.

That aside aside, vit sphere has other advantages over fireball, as I mentioned previously. There are fewer than half as many acid-resistant and -immune monsters as fire-resistant and -immune, and there is less likelihood with vitriolic sphere of heinous property damage.



> But, yea, that's some pretty good scaling.  Particularly since it's 1 blast that covers several levels, giving you room for other stuff.




Yes, agreed.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> vitriolic sphere is clearly the better spell at higher levels.



Agreed.  But I still don't think it's all that good at the level you get it.

So I rated it again as a level 5 spell.  When it's worth more.


----------



## Blue

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> I think you are a little generous to wall of fire. It has a couple of noteworthy shortcomings. For as much damage as it does, you are only rarely going to deal damage to any individual creature more than once in the absence of forced movement. It is also expressly opaque, which limits spellcasting through it and leads to guess targeting of attacks. I'm not sure why you say that the spell has "control and damage." Are you looking at the deterrence effect as control?




I would count Wall of Fire as soft control.

1.  You can easily force creatures to avoid certain areas (within 10' of the wall).
2.  Taking the damage a second time to move through it is a soft deterance.
3.  Blocking line of sight also affects foes, who may waste actions going around (if terrain allows) or may take more damage to go through to reestablish LoS.
4.  A ringed wall (explicitly given option) is 20' in diameter, which leaves nowhere not within 10' if you make it inward facing.  However, if you make it outward facing it gives you an area where you can protect objectives with both an area foes don't want to physically enter and also have blocked line of site - makes it pretty secure.

Not saying it's a fantastic spell, but it does have it's uses.


----------



## mellored

xanathar's update.


----------



## Gabi Saints

@mellored  forgot to add absorb elements


----------



## mellored

Gabi Saints said:


> @mellored  forgot to add absorb elements



added


----------



## mellored

I also bumped up subtle metamagic.  There are enough sneaky spells to make it worthwhile, as well as prodigy for stealth expertise.
Subtle + enemies about is my new favorite.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

I think you missed far step and skill empowerment, [MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION].


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> I think you missed far step and skill empowerment, [MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION].



Added, thx.


----------



## saintstardust

> And let's you replace (not add), sorcerer spells with cleric spells.




It looks like when you would learn a sorcerer spell, you could instead learn a cleric spell. So it looks like you can add spells and also replace.


----------



## gyor

Conjure Celestial,  Aid,  Guardians of Faith,  Geas and others are great spells for the Divine Soul. 

 Sorcerers tend to be good at damage spells like Evocation,  Illusion Spells,  and Enchantment spells with a few odds and ends. Clerics tend to be good at healing spells,  both damage,  death,  and conditions,  conjurations,  necromancy (creating undead), radiant damage,  and buffs. They focus on totally different areas,  only the Divine Soul can bridge them and combine with metamagic. 

 The Coualt one conjurers up with conjure Celestial can cast 22 spells,  not including the 3 it can cast at will,  can change it's shape to any CR 4 animal or human at will (including some with innate magic spells it can use), has a poisonous bite that it can use in other forms with a bite, like Sabre Tooth Tiger. It flies in its natural form, reads, writes, and speaks all languages, has telepathy, and a few other things. Seriously extend spell Conjure: Celestial to conjurer Coautls (the only CR 4 Celestials) are worth being a Divine Soul by itself.

 Then there are spells like Planar Ally,  Temple of the Gods, Commune, Holy Weapon, and others.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

saintstardust said:


> It looks like when you would learn a sorcerer spell, you could instead learn a cleric spell. So it looks like you can add spells and also replace.




What he's saying is that you don't get any additional spells known. You peak at fifteen (plus one for alignment), no matter how many you've got to choose from.


----------



## mellored

gyor said:


> Conjure Celestial,  Aid,  Guardians of Faith,  Geas and others are great spells for the Divine Soul.



Conjure Celestial could be better than finger of death.
But i don't see Aid as any better then shield, guardiands of faith being better than greater invisibiltity, or geas as better than animate objects.

You have to think about the spells you lose, not just the ones you gain.



> Then there are spells like Planar Ally,  Temple of the Gods, Commune, Holy Weapon, and others.



You just listed 8 spells, plus my list of 8 = 16.
That means you have 0 sorcerer spells.

I will add conjure celestial though.  That's nice.


----------



## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> Added, thx.




Cool. Gut reaction is that you underrate crown of stars, but I haven't closely considered the math and mechanics of it yet. Are you going to look at the racial feats as well? Elven accuracy seems like an obvious winner, especially for wild magic.


----------



## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> Cool. Gut reaction is that you underrate crown of stars, but I haven't closely considered the math and mechanics of it yet.



Disintigrate (6th level + quicken)
75 damage

Crown of stars (7th level)
26 per turn = 78 in a 3 round battle

Spiritual Weapon (7th level)
32 per turn = 96 in a 3 round battle

Quicken + Firebolt + fire dragon sorc (convert a 7th level slot for SP).
21.5 per turn = 64.5 in 3 round (+ 1 SP left over).

Sunbeam (6th level, AoE, concentration, action, half on miss)
27 per turn = 81 in 3 rounds.

All (except sunbeam) do nothing on a miss, so accuracy not included.

So unless you get multiple battles worth, something I find dubious even with an hour, I don't see it as all to great.



> Are you going to look at the racial feats as well? Elven accuracy seems like an obvious winner, especially for wild magic.



Most spells don't use advantage. And there's really no other feat that makes/breaks anything. Unless you have an odd score.

But fair point about wild. And shadow as well. So I'll add that one.


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## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> Cool. Gut reaction is that you underrate crown of stars, but I haven't closely considered the math and mechanics of it yet.



Is crown of stars twinable?


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## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> Disintigrate (6th level + quicken)
> 75 damage
> 
> Crown of stars (7th level)
> 26 per turn = 78 in a 3 round battle
> 
> Spiritual Weapon (7th level)
> 32 per turn = 96 in a 3 round battle
> 
> Firebolt + fire dragon sorc (convert a 7th level slot for 3 rounds of quicken + 1 SP).
> 21.5 per turn = 64.5 in 3 round
> 
> Sunbeam (6th level, AoE, concentration, action, half on miss)
> 27 per turn = 81 in 3 rounds.
> 
> All (except sunbeam) do nothing on a miss, so accuracy not included.
> 
> So unless you get multiple battles worth, something I find dubious even with an hour, I don't see it as all to great.




Your rationale for making Melf's minute meteors blue was that it does 50% more damage than fireball at 3rd level. Well, crown of stars does 370% more damage than fire storm at 7th level, 569% more than sunburst at 8th, and 104% more than meteor swarm at 9th. Unlike Melf's, it doesn't require concentration, and it lasts six times as long.

The net effect of crown of stars is to give you 7/9/11 quickened spells within the next hour, at the cost of 7/8/9 sorcery points instead of 14/18/22, while upgrading your fire bolt from 3/4d10 fire damage to 4d12 radiant. Accuracy should be a consideration, since not all save types (and AC) are equal, attacks can crit, and advantage on attacks is more common and cheaper than disadvantage on enemy saves. So:

Sunbeam: Con save, concentration, can't be scaled up, risk of friendly fire, and you're quickening anyway if you want to cast other spells.
Fire bolt + dragon bonus: I agree, crown of stars is better than fire bolts while quickening other spells, even for fire dragons. That makes it a whole lot better for the other 4.8 sorcerer subclasses.
Spiritual weapon: Double check the scaling. A 7th-level spiritual weapon does 3d8 + spellcasting mod. 18.5 * 3 = 55.5 damage. It's also not available to most sorcerers.
Quickened disintegrate: All right, and what are you doing with your action? Fire bolt? Twinned fire bolt? Well, if you had used your bonus action for crown of stars, you could cast a twinned disintegrate with your action. That's 176 damage with crown of stars, 108 without.

Beyond all that, at bottom I disagree with the calculation that you need to use it more than three times to get value. Crown of stars allows you to front-load damage and to use other spells with metamagic when you would otherwise be quickening them. It improves both damage per round and flow.

I also disagree about seeing more than one combat in an hour. In my experience, it is very common to fight, for example, undead minions in the first room, henchlings in the second, a stronger undead in the third, overseers in the fourth, and the boss in the fifth.



> Most spells don't use advantage.  And there's really no other feat that makes/breaks anything.  Unless you have an odd score.
> 
> But fair point about wild.  And shadow as well.  So I'll add that one.




Greater invisibility + scorching ray should be in every sorcerer's playbook. Heck, dip two levels of hexblade warlock, cast eldritch blast and quickened scorching ray from invisibility with elven accuracy, and enjoy a 27.1% chance to crit on each attack.



> Is crown of stars twinable?




Nope, but neither are any of the spells you just compared it to.


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## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> Your rationale for making Melf's minute meteors blue was that it does 50% more damage than fireball at 3rd level.



Fair.  Though melfs is an AoE that can often hit 2 people and does half-on-a-miss.
Crown of starts is single target with nothing if you miss.
So your %'s aren't a fair comparison.

Still, I'll bump it to blue.



> Greater invisibility + scorching ray should be in every sorcerer's playbook



Sorcerer's are not usually the best target for greater invisibility.

Eldrich blast deals 31.5 per round. (*3 rounds for a quicken  = with a 7th level slot).  So if your dipping hexblade, crown of stars loses to that.
And multiclassing means you're behind on wish.  So it'a a heafty trade off.



> Spiritual weapon: Double check the scaling.



Wow... I've been playing that one wrong for a while...



> Nope, but neither are any of the spells you just compared it to.



Firebolt is.
But that's less direct than quicken.


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## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> Sorcerers are not usually the best target for greater invisibility.




I would be curious to know why you say this. I consider greater invisibility + scorching ray our best single-target option outside of disintegrate.



> Eldrich blast deals 31.5 per round. (*3 rounds for a quicken  = with a 7th level slot).  So if you're dipping hexblade, crown of stars loses to that.




True, one of the most notoriously powerful multiclass combos beats out crown of stars. A single-classed sorcerer, of course, would not have eldritch blast, and a single-classed warlock would not have quickened spell, so it remains a good spell for either of them individually. As you point out, multiclassing has its drawbacks as well.

The point I was making was about elven accuracy and its application in crit fishing. Even without the larger crit range of the hexblade, the feat raises your crit chance to greater than 14.25% on advantaged attacks.


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## mellored

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> I would be curious to know why you say this. I consider greater invisibility + scorching ray our best single-target option outside of disintegrate.



Sharpshooter.
1d8+15 * 2 attacks = 39 * .5 = 19.5
+ greater invisbility = 39 * .75 = 29.25
GI adds +9.75 damage.

Scorcing ray
2d6 * 3 attacks * = 21 * .65 = 13.65
+ greater invisibility = 21 * .8775 =18.4275
GI adds +4.7775

So you get double the damage, and get to keep your level 2 if you cast it on an archer instead of yourself. And that doesn't include action surge, hunter's mark, or whatever.

Just for completness

Eldrich Blast
1d10+5*2 = 21
...so same as scorching ray, but without expending spell slots.
(Though warlocks probably have their own advantage).


So yea, I don't see the sorcerer as the prime target to put the GI on. Unless you're alone. In which case, i would be using subtle and not reveal your location with scorching ray, so not even then.



> The point I was making was about elven accuracy and its application in crit fishing. Even without the larger crit range of the hexblade, the feat raises your crit chance to greater than 14.25% on advantaged attacks.



That's total. You would have 9.75% chance with just advantage. So the feat only adds 4.5% chance to crit, to a single spell or 2, if you also are using another spell for advantage.
* 4d12 = +1.17 crit damage.

Or to be complete.
4d12 * .65 = 16.9
4d12 * .8775 = 22.815
4d12 * .957125= 24.88525 (+ 1.17 crit)
GI adds +5.915 damage.
EA adds +3.24025 damage
= +9.15525 total.

Still better off using GI on the fighter. But does beat a warlock.

As for the other cost...
Half-elf,
8 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 15+2 Cha + elven archery (18 Cha)
vs
8 str, 16 dex, 16 con, 8 int, 10 Wis, 14+2 Cha + 2 Cha (18 cha)

So your trading out +1 Wis for elven accuracy. Not bad on that front.


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## gyor

The value of Metamagics and spells vary greaterly between subclasses. Heighten Spell is awesome for many builds,  blue at least, but it red for Shadow Sorcerers, because Hound of Ill Omen does what but does 10 times better, for the same price.

 Extend Spell is much better for Divine Souls then other Sorcerers because they have far more spells with durations like 10 minutes,  an hour,  even some like Aid and Guardian of Faith last for 8 hours without concentration.  Btw the healing that Aid grants, which you can cast before battle, is gravy, its real value is in boosting the maxium HPs of 3 characters for 8 hours (16 with extend spell), which is great especially for front line squishy characters like Rogues and Monks and Ranger Beast Companions.

 Distant Spell is also better for Divine Souls then other because cleric spells are more likely to be touch range like revify, cure wounds, lesser restoration, and so on.

 Temple of the Gods is also worth getting if your a Divine Soul. Its a safer fortress then Mighty Fortress, a meterite spell can hit it and it won't be damaged, it can be far more flexible in size, healing boosted within, ect... It perfect for resting and healing safely and there are other creative uses for it.


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## Cognomen's Cassowary

mellored said:


> Sharpshooter.
> 1d8+15 * 2 attacks = 39 * .5 = 19.5
> + greater invisbility = 39 * .75 = 29.25
> GI adds +9.75 damage.
> 
> Scorcing ray
> 2d6 * 3 attacks * = 21 * .65 = 13.65
> + greater invisibility = 21 * .8775 =18.4275
> GI adds +4.7775
> 
> So you get double the damage, and get to keep your level 2 if you cast it on an archer instead of yourself. And that doesn't include action surge, hunter's mark, or whatever.




I think you are mostly right in this specific example, though you are glossing over some finer points--the sorcerer could actually nova for more damage by casting scorching ray out of a 4th- or 5th-level slot, and more yet by quickening and throwing out a fire bolt. Though the sorcerer would be more likely to lose concentration if not invisible, the sharpshooter would have the higher sustained damage.

However, I don't think that sharpshooter by itself suffices to prove that sorcerers are not usually the best target for greater invisibility. I do not believe that every party has a character built to maximize one of the most-banned and -houseruled feats in the game. Or two such characters, if the sorcerer can twin greater invis. In fact, I have never seen a character with sharpshooter or GWM in actual play; I only see those feats talked about a lot on these forums. If I can find the time, I might do some math on more-common builds to see how they compare.

And, of course, if the sorcerer has elven accuracy . . . 
Scorching ray - 0 damage on a miss/7 on a hit/14 on a crit
35/60/5 base = 4.9 damage per ray
12.25/78/9.75 with advantage = 6.825 damage per ray
4.29/81.45/14.26 with elven accuracy = 7.70 damage per ray 

That sorcerer can out-damage the sharpshooter with a 3rd-level scorching ray. A 6th-level scorching ray will average 7.7 * 7 = 53.9 damage. A 6th-level disintegrate averages 75 * 0.65 = 48.75, so I think the crit-fishing approach has some merit.

Moving back to the absurdly theorycrafty realm of the hexblade multiclass for the fun of it, let's throw on the hexblade curse.

0 damage on a miss/10 on a hit/17 on a crit (assuming a +3 proficiency bonus)
4.29/68.61/27.1 = 11.47 damage per ray

That one outdoes the sharpshooter with a 2nd-level scorching ray.

The 6th-level scorching ray would then average 80.28 damage. Not bad. Tack on another 30-ish points if someone else casts greater invisibility on you so you can concentrate on the hex spell. Add on fire-dragon bonus if you like. Come to think of it, even without advantage and elven accuracy, the hexblade's scorching ray would deal 7.2 damage, so just over 50 at 6th level. I'm starting to think that a dip into hexblade is a little too good.


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## Zmajdusa

Consider that with hexblade you can grab improved pact weapon, thirsting blade, and eldritch smite all by 5th level as a hexblade.  You would get 2 attacks and could then quicken an eldritch blast, and all 4 attacks that round would crit on a 19 or 20.


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## ppaladin123

So is a 1 level dip in hexblade just the default for sorcerers now (especially non-Dragon)? Seems like the armor/shields alone are enough to justify it.


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## vonkraush

Very interested in getting a divine soul sorcerer build online, but the sheer number of available spells and limited spells known is making it very difficult for me to figure out exactly what to choose. Does anyone have a set of 'optimal' recommendations at each level? That would be very helpful to consult.


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## ScuroNotte

vonkraush said:


> Very interested in getting a divine soul sorcerer build online, but the sheer number of available spells and limited spells known is making it very difficult for me to figure out exactly what to choose. Does anyone have a set of 'optimal' recommendations at each level? That would be very helpful to consult.




Homebrew and increase the number of spells. That is the only way we play the sorcerer.

Otherwise, depends on your party make up. Are you the healer, support, blaster, etc.


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## mellored

ppaladin123 said:


> So is a 1 level dip in hexblade just the default for sorcerers now (especially non-Dragon)? Seems like the armor/shields alone are enough to justify it.



No.  If you have a good front line, it's better to stick with the extra spell slots and spell level.

If you don't have a good front line, it competes with cleric.  Would you rather have a single level 5 slot, or 3 level 1 slots?  Wis is a good start to have anyways, so it's not much of a factor.


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## vonkraush

I believe I'm going for mostly blaster? I was hoping I could also pair that with at least some support and beyond just haste though.


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## mellored

vonkraush said:


> I believe I'm going for mostly blaster? I was hoping I could also pair that with at least some support and beyond just haste though.



You still only get 1 concentration spell.

But grab a healing word and revivify, you can twin them.


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## ScuroNotte

vonkraush said:


> I believe I'm going for mostly blaster? I was hoping I could also pair that with at least some support and beyond just haste though.




If you are using the 15 spells known, I would say select 2 damage spells that target single targets and 2 damage spells that target groups. Try to select different saving throw types and different damage types for each. For groups, you can use Fireball (old standby) that targets Dex and fire damage. Then select Synaptic Static later on for Int saving throw with psychic damage.

Single Target you can select spiritual Weapon as no concentration and a free bonus action to attack. Saves you sorcery points instead of spending on Quicken. Firebolt or Sacred Flame or Ray of Frost and then Spiritual Weapon every round against a single target.

Also can select Silence spell and Subtle Metamagic. Use against casters. They cant cast but you can.
Distant Metamagic and Cure Wounds. No need for touch.


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## Ogre Mage

vonkraush said:


> Very interested in getting a divine soul sorcerer build online, but the sheer number of available spells and limited spells known is making it very difficult for me to figure out exactly what to choose. Does anyone have a set of 'optimal' recommendations at each level? That would be very helpful to consult.




If you are planning your PC as a support caster/healer, I would recommend taking a 1 level dip into Life Cleric.  It will give you several more known spells, especially as Life Clerics automatically know _bless_ and _cure wounds_.  Not to mention armor and a bonus to your healing spells.

That aside, some of my generic top choices per level are:

1st level:  Bless, Guiding Bolt, Healing Word, Magic Missile, Sleep, Shield, Absorb Elements.
2nd level:   Spiritual Weapon, Invisibility, Flaming Sphere, Misty Step, Suggestion.
3rd level:  Spirit Guardians, Revivify, Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Haste, Counterspell.
4th level:  Death Ward, Banishment, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph.
5th level:  Mass Cure Wounds, Hold Monster, Wall of Force.  Possibly True Seeing depending on the campaign.
6th level:  Heal, Mass Suggestion, Chain Lightning.  Possibly Planar Ally but that one is quite GM dependent.

Not familiar enough with higher level spells to comment.  Although Wish is a no-brainer.


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## gyor

vonkraush said:


> Very interested in getting a divine soul sorcerer build online, but the sheer number of available spells and limited spells known is making it very difficult for me to figure out exactly what to choose. Does anyone have a set of 'optimal' recommendations at each level? That would be very helpful to consult.




 Figure out what kind of Spells you want to focus on and how deeply you want to focus on them.

 Example say I want a Divine Soul who focuses on Conjuration Spells and Healing, with a couple of useful spells to fill in gaps.

 So for Conjuration I take Guardian Spirits, Spiritual Weapon, Guardian of Faith, Planar Ally, Temple of the Gods, Conjure Celestial, and Wish. And the Extend Spell Metamagic.

 Then for healing I get Cure Wounds 4 free, get Lessèr Restoration, Revify, Mass Cure Wounds, then trade regular cure wounds for Aid (when you want a proper cure wounds spell you cast Mass Cure Wounds).

 This allows you to specialize in 2 different areas while retaining some variety.



 That leaves 5 spells to fill in any holes for some rounding. Dominate Monster, Major Illusion (use 6th level slot to make it permanent), Chromatic Orb (can be twinned, deals good single target damage, flexible in that you have many choices in damage types), Mage Armour for safety, and Polymorph for a spell that can buff/debuff as needed.

 Before Wish becomes available you can cure the blind, the deaf, the diseased, the poisoned, the dead, heal wounds, throw a balls of Thunder Damage, Force Damage, Fire Damage, Cold Damage, Lightening Damage, Acid Damage, Poison Damage, create both temperary and permenant illusions, Dominate almost anything, turn yourself and others into animals of your choice, buff, debuff, cast damage dealing spells, Conjure Couatls, Summon Planar Allies (Elemental/Celestial/Fiend) that serve any cosmic entity and buy their service, summon countless fey or celestial spirits to fight for him, summon a Guardian of Faith, and a Spiritual Weapon, buff and debuff.


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## Arthil

Hello!

So I've got an interesting setup right now and am still wondering on where to take it.  The Wild Sticky Bomb from the OP seemed interesting, but all of that is based around being a Variant Human(like too many builds).

Thanks to my DM rolling up an odd but interesting combo of stats, I decided to make a Goliath Sorcerer.  My stat layout is below:

15 STR 12 DEX 12 CON 10 INT 15 WIS 15 CHA

The Wild Sticky Bomb build appealed to me cause with my high strength I can be in the fray once I got some armor, actually make use of shove actions with my strength score and a natural proficiency with athletics.  But I'm sure I'm gonna need to go a different route, what with an uneven CHA etc.  I'm also not sure how I am meant to end up with 24 AC by Level 11.

I know for my CHA, I'd need to go +2, +2 and then a +1 with a dip of one into something else to get it maxed out.  Which is where my feats would end cause dipping 1 into Hexblade deprives you of one of your AIS's.


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## mellored

Arthil said:


> Hello!
> 
> So I've got an interesting setup right now and am still wondering on where to take it. The Wild Sticky Bomb from the OP seemed interesting, but all of that is based around being a Variant Human(like too many builds).
> 
> Thanks to my DM rolling up an odd but interesting combo of stats, I decided to make a Goliath Sorcerer. My stat layout is below:
> 
> 15 STR 12 DEX 12 CON 10 INT 15 WIS 15 CHA



Since you have the Str, no need to go hexblade.  I would dip fighter for heavy armor and defensive style, or cleric for the spell slots.  And then take +1 Str / +1 Cha, +2 Str, +2 Str, and resilient Wis.  Possibly inspiring leader.

You will end up with 26 AC.  18 heavy armor, +1 defensive style, +2 shield, and +5 shield spell.

+3 Cha will still be enough to cast the occasional fireball, which does half on a miss anyways.  And spells like greater invisibility and haste don't require Cha.


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## Arthil

mellored said:


> Since you have the Str, no need to go hexblade.  I would dip fighter for heavy armor and defensive style, or cleric for the spell slots.  And then take +1 Str / +1 Cha, +2 Str, +2 Str, and resilient Wis.  Possibly inspiring leader.
> 
> You will end up with 26 AC.  18 heavy armor, +1 defensive style, +2 shield, and +5 shield spell.
> 
> +3 Cha will still be enough to cast the occasional fireball, which does half on a miss anyways.  And spells like greater invisibility and haste don't require Cha.




I actually thought about dipping into Paladin as well after looking around for other ideas.  You can't get Heavy Armor proficiency from dipping into Fighter though, only way to get it without taking the feat is to dip Cleric and take a domain which gives it. So "only" 25 AC instead .


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## mellored

Arthil said:


> I actually thought about dipping into Paladin as well after looking around for other ideas.  You can't get Heavy Armor proficiency from dipping into Fighter though, only way to get it without taking the feat is to dip Cleric and take a domain which gives it. So "only" 25 AC instead .



If you start fighter, you get heavy armor.  Then take the rest of your levels as sorcerer.  And if you're only dipping 1 level, fighter is just better than paladin, as it get's defensive style.

But cleric works as well, bringing spell slots.


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## Arthil

mellored said:


> If you start fighter, you get heavy armor.  Then take the rest of your levels as sorcerer.  And if you're only dipping 1 level, fighter is just better than paladin, as it get's defensive style.
> 
> But cleric works as well, bringing spell slots.




Ahh yeah I'm set in starting off with Sorcerer, both because I want to but also because now that we've done a Session 0 everything is locked in.

The dip into fighter would work really well, although going that route might make taking it from a dip into going 5/6 levels a better idea.  My idea was to push 5 levels into Warlock so I'd be able to get the invocation which gave Extra Attack.


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## gyor

Enveration is better for Shadow Sorcerers then other classes that get because of the Shadow Hound. 

 A Shadow Sorcerer uses it's bonus action to summon the Shadow Hound and then casts an Empowered Enveration on a target,  the SH ensures the target has disadvantage on it's saves against Enveration,  not just the first one,  and it knocks down the target,  helping to make sure it can't get far enough away to end the spell early. The empower metamagic allows to reroll the damage dice,  which boosts the damage,  but also as a side effect boosts the  healing which is based upon the damage dealt.


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## clutchbone

mellored said:


> ⓣChill Touch: Can be used in both melee and ranged,




Don't ranged spell attacks suffer disadvantage in melee?


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## mellored

clutchbone said:


> Don't ranged spell attacks suffer disadvantage in melee?



Yes.
I must thought it was a saving throw.

I will update.


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## Yunru

I'd like to note that while Simulacrums can't _regain_ spell slots, there's nothing against them _creating_ them.
So your Simulacrum army is still usable beyond the first day.


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## InspetorG

Pardon the necro...

Any Updates pertaining to the massive class updates in the UA?
I havent tried them yet, but they seem to mainly be a buff.

Spell Versatility to help the lack of Spells Known.

Empowering Reserves seems to have some negative synergy with Tides of Chaos, 2Sp for advantage on an Ability Check
Imbuing Touch is a nice low-level buff for the party Beatsticks.
Sorcerous Fortitude some Temp HP, costs an action so cant be used as a clutch safety measure.

Metas:
Elemental Spell: YES! 1SP to convert between a few energy types. Fewer spells can do more duty.
Seeking Spell: meh. 1SP to ignore cover on a spell attack roll that allows a Dex Save.
Unerring Spell: 2Sp to reroll a missed attack spell roll. Hmm... costly but i wanna say when Bend Luck misses

Spells:
0: Primal Savagery- Melee Attack 1d10 acid damage. No weapon needed so, decent for desperate shield carrying Hexblade Sorlocks?
1: Grease-nice, Protection from Good/Evil- niche but there are probably better things to use Concentration on.
2: Flame Blade-meh. Maybe for gish fire dragon sorcs. Flaming Sphere- NICE! A summon that does fair AOE damage. I want to say it can be Twinned...
3: Vampiric Touch- requires a Melee Spell Attack... Maybe for a gish?
4: Fire Shield- Good due to non-concentration. Resist either fire or cold with some light and retaliation damage.
5: nothing
6: Flesh to Stone-Hmm. Con Save sucks but with Bend Luck it could be a costly but nice Save-or-Suck.
7: nothing
8: Demiplane- Yup!!!
9: Foresight- very nice, but better than Wish?

Thoughts?


----------

