# Epic D&D campaign (still recruiting)



## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 22, 2011)

Just to let people know, I'm still tying to fill out a second party, which has a few slots left open in it.

The characters themselves have no memory past when they origionally died, and find themselves born on a strange isolated island filled with turmoil, hate, and a deperate few willing to hope for a better life. They have no knowledge of the experiment they were created to participate in, nor do the islands inhabitants.

Simply speaking, the campaign consists of a world of clay that the adventurers can mold into whatever they choose. In terms of character personality, the idea here is not creating the character personality as characters level up, but to have the characters instead rediscover who they are and how they will fit into a new and strange world.

Rules time!

I'm going to be allowing core and completes entirely, while any other sources will require a yes or no answer, though for the most part I intend to be fairly liberal when it comes to that. I am looking for PCs more geared for a fun adventure rather than a number crunch, but I don't really intend to discriminate. Odd sources ar encouraged . 

Alignment is completely open, good or evil is fine. If I have enough interest I can run multiple parties of varying sizes in the world at once, or even single PCs or pairs if some people decide they want to do their own thing. The island will have enough content on it to run it that way.

When it comes to combat vs non-combat characters I will say this. You're interactions with this world and how in depth they are depend entirely on how much you want them to be. In alot of ways this will be reflected by how you make your character. My goal as a DM is to make sure PCs get use out of every aspect of their characters so nobody feels they took a skill for no reason or their crafting isn't working out very well. (btw, no item creation chart. Crafting can only make premade effects. Item slot switching/doubling up is fine though.)

I need to know how your characters died. Not only do I need how your characters died, I need WHEN your characters died as well. As such, pick a number between 1 and 10,000 and slot your life span into it. Remember to figure out how old you were. This can also be important because later players will know of the older players exploits.

Now, I'm adding a bit of homework to character backgrounds as to how they pertain to knowledge checks. I would like each character to have 5-10 things known about them or exploits thay have accomplished, or important events they were involved in. After that, pick a knowledge skill (or more should you choose) to be associated with your character, in addition to knowledge history. Then I would like you to pick a base Knowledge Check DC for each piece of info between 10 and 40, then add a d20 to determine the Knowledge check DC.

This process is optional for you to do, however I will warn anybody who chooses to skip the process or submit less than 5 things that I will be going through your characters and choosing information and DCs myself. Long story short if there are facts about your character you want to remain hidden, then choose for me.

I'm gonna clarify my magic item rules.
Magic Item Stacking: Yes
Magic Item Slot switching: Yes
Item Creation Chart: No
Buying Duplicates of Times/Day Items (i.e. mostly from MiC): No
Adding Enhancements to Specific Weapons/Armor (i.e. souldrinker): No

HPs will be rolled. I do use XP penalties for multiclassing. Inherant bonuses kick in at level 20 with one exception based off of if you put any level bonus into int. You have to have the int bonus put into it at the level the bonus would take effect. 
+1 into int = +1 Inherant at level 19
+2 into int = +1 at 18, +2 at 19
+3 into int = +1 at 17, +2 at 18, +3 at 19
+4 into int = +1 at 16, +2 at 17, +3 at 18, +4 at 19


I don't allow Thri-Kreen, Unearthed Arcana, Mord's Disjunction and all holy word style spells, Shapechange.

I allow spell turning to turn rays.


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## HolyMan (Apr 22, 2011)

To help you out will let you know interest would depend on a lot of things.

- What sources are allowed (would be the main one).
- What would the players be doing since they can save the world before morning tea. (Or at least should be able to)
- You say campaign but how long are you looking for it to truly last and how much lvling up will occur?

Also a lot of players like to build their character up personality wise and such as they go from lower lvls to higher. Maybe a campaign starting at somewhere between 10th-15th lvl would be more something people would be interested in as they could RP the change from Greater Hero to Epic Hero. 

And finally a lot of people are interested in Pathfinder if you have and thought about running this you might get a few more takers. Not saying 3.5 is a worse system. It's just a lot are making the switch and it is easier to keep your rules separate if you only play the one.

So I guess a little more info is needed to get people posting up questions about what it is you wish to do.

Good luck, I will keep an eye out and pop in from time to time.

HM


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## Shayuri (Apr 22, 2011)

Need a great deal more info than that before interest can be determined.

What kind of game are you talking? Save the multiverse? Planehopping for fun and profits? Ruling the world? Ascending to godhood?

In PBP especially, epic combat can draaaaaaaag out...so it's important to have a lot of noncombat stuff going on too. Epic dungeon crawls are a bit tedious. Encounters work better when there's a larger context for why we're there and what we're doing.

Also, what kind of setting do you have in mind? Homebrew? One of the many established D&D settings? Something wild and crazy? Something staid and well known?

Sizzle the concept...make us want it.


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## Scott DeWar (Apr 22, 2011)

HolyMan said:


> To help you out will let you know interest would depend on a lot of things.
> **snip**
> 
> Good luck, I will keep an eye out and pop in from time to time.
> ...






Shayuri said:


> Need a great deal more info than that before interest can be determined.
> **snip**
> 
> Sizzle the concept...make us want it.



you two are hilarious. one minute apart and you didn't even know it.

Just wanted to say good luck on your game now that I see you were told the same as what I was going to say. Twice even.


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## Jemal (Apr 22, 2011)

Whatever the level, I'll be interested.

I thought there wouldn't be any Epic games here until I started one up!
ER.. I mean.. nobody read that last part right?
*innocent Whistle*

*L* Anyways, the others are right in that you'll need to say more about what you want to run before you'll get many commited responses.


Also, Scott: h*i*larious.  Spelling Nazi strikes again!


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## Rathan (Apr 22, 2011)

I'm calling a spot if possible... I don't have access to all the books... or make as fancy a character as most here.. but I looooove making high level characters. Color me *very* interested!


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 22, 2011)

Alrighty, looks like I have enough heads turned my way to flesh out the campaign. The name of the game is "Dead Legends". A mad scientist of epic proportions has developted a method to recreate the greatest beings of history. He does so in order to get them to assist him in testing and improving his hideous creations. His goal, to be in control of the strongest creatures of all time. 

The characters themselves have no memory past when they origionally died, and find themselves born on a strange isolated island filled with turmoil, hate, and a deperate few willing to hope for a better life. They have no knowledge of the experiment they were created to participate in, nor do the islands inhabitants.

Simply speaking, the campaign consists of a world of clay that the adventurers can mold into whatever they choose. In terms of character personality, the idea here is not creating the character personality as characters level up, but to have the characters instead rediscover who they are and how they will fit into a new and strange world.

Rules time!

I'm going to be allowing core and completes entirely, while any other sources will require a yes or no answer, though for the most part I intend to be fairly liberal when it comes to that. I am looking for PCs more geared for a fun adventure rather than a number crunch, but I don't really intend to discriminate. Odd sources ar encouraged . 

Alignment is completely open, good or evil is fine. If I have enough interest I can run multiple parties of varying sizes in the world at once, or even single PCs or pairs if some people decide they want to do their own thing. The island will have enough content on it to run it that way.

When it comes to combat vs non-combat characters I will say this. You're interactions with this world and how in depth they are depend entirely on how much you want them to be. In alot of ways this will be reflected by how you make your character. My goal as a DM is to make sure PCs get use out of every aspect of their characters so nobody feels they took a skill for no reason or their crafting isn't working out very well. (btw, no item creation chart. Crafting can only make premade effects. Item slto swtiching/doubling up is fine though.)

I'll go into more specifics once people have decided yay or nay and we have narrowed down a level.

I will give one last note, and that is as a DM I'm going for fun and crazy here. The higher level the party the more I get to reach into the near infinite depth of 3.5 D&D monsters, templates, and races to come up with some seriously fun and unique baddies. As an example, one of the planned recurring baddies of this campaign is going to be called a Hycatoncheidra. I'll give a bonus to the first person to figure out what it is


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## Shayuri (Apr 22, 2011)

Hmm. Trapped on an island. So from that I assume we probably shouldn't invest too heavily on spells or items that give us long range or planar travel abilities, eh?


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## Rathan (Apr 22, 2011)

Ok.. well no one else seems to be jumping on the level question so I guess I'll throw out some numbers here. 

I'd say at least 30... 30 is a nice round number but if someone wants something else please speak up but 30 is my vote at the moment...

EDIT: Also Dharuhk Svahre... what are we doing for stats?... Point buy?... If so how many points? 4d6 drop lowest?

EDIT2: Also... where are we starting wealth-wise at 30?


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## Shayuri (Apr 22, 2011)

30's fine with me.


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## HolyMan (Apr 22, 2011)

Noooooooooooooooo!!! I must resist. I must. 

But 30th lvl - 30th lvl  No resist... 

30th lvl I would get to finally play my Wizard10/Cleric10/Mystic Theurge10 

No resist darn you... 

Can't I am weak... 

And I am in at 30th lvl if that is where we start. 

HM


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## Shayuri (Apr 22, 2011)

Some requests vis a vis sources:

- Warforged race and associated content from Eberron books.
- Magic Item Compendium.
- Tome of 9 Swords
- Spell Compendium
- Epic Warlock article on Wizards' website (now archived)


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## Rhun (Apr 22, 2011)

I'd love to play, but I honestly don't think I have the time to put together an epic level character.


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## Rathan (Apr 22, 2011)

Damn... I think Shay is going for a Lock... which is where I was going to head too :/... roshambo you for it Shay?! LOL


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## Rathan (Apr 22, 2011)

Ok.. I think I'm changing my mind on the level here... looking into a character concept... I wouldn't mind playing a vampire lock or vampire something else... but with a +8 level adj. I'm finding it hard to even getting one an epic feat.. perhaps 35 would be better? heh


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## Shayuri (Apr 22, 2011)

I still like 30. Gotta have SOME hard choices.


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## Rathan (Apr 22, 2011)

To be honest... I don't see any epic feats I'd really be interested in in the sources I have access to for a lock... now for a psion I'm contemplating.. maybe heh... 

Shay: Do you plan on playing a lock or no?


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 23, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> Hmm. Trapped on an island. So from that I assume we probably shouldn't invest too heavily on spells or items that give us long range or planar travel abilities, eh?




Long range teleportation is fine. The island is big enough for that to be useful. Planeshift... would be out of place. I'll let you guys know now there is a barrier outside the island that prevents leaving its radius. This barrier does extend through other planes (so all the other planes do have a part to play, just they can't take you back to the material anywhere other than the island)



Rathan said:


> Ok.. well no one else seems to be jumping on the level question so I guess I'll throw out some numbers here.
> 
> I'd say at least 30... 30 is a nice round number but if someone wants something else please speak up but 30 is my vote at the moment...
> 
> ...




30 is fine with me. Seems to be the general concensus. 30's wealth is 4.3 million. Stat system is no lower than 10, no higher than 18. Each stat is point for point (so an 18 is worth 18 points). 90 points in total.



Shayuri said:


> Some requests vis a vis sources:
> 
> - Warforged race and associated content from Eberron books.
> - Magic Item Compendium.
> ...




Get me a link to the epic warlock, spell compendium is all fine, tome of nine swords is good mostly, but I reserve the right to say no to things considering I don't no what you're using it for. Eberron is all fine. Magic Item Compendium... k I'm gonna go on the middle ground for this. Any item is ok BUT nobody is allowed to take any items from that book multiple times, in any way shape or form. Multiple weapons are ok. As well, any cost discrepancies that come up will go to the dmg, NOT MiC.



Rathan said:


> Ok.. I think I'm changing my mind on the level here... looking into a character concept... I wouldn't mind playing a vampire lock or vampire something else... but with a +8 level adj. I'm finding it hard to even getting one an epic feat.. perhaps 35 would be better? heh




If you want 35 convince everybody else to agree and I'm down with it. The higher the better in my mind.


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## Rathan (Apr 23, 2011)

Disregard... I've answered my own question!


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## Jemal (Apr 23, 2011)

Dharuhk - I believe Shayuri's referring to This page  Which is the page I was going to ask to use before I saw that Shay was interested in warlock.  

Well, lets see what other concepts does the red fisted wonder have..

Hmm, well first question : What's your take on Summoning in this place, you've said that planar travel is a bad idea, but how about planar ally/summon monster/etc?


As far as level, I too am of the 'bigger is better' school, but it's not a deal breaker for me.  Anything over 20 is my playground. 

Also, question re: power level.  How powerful do you want us to be in relation to 'standard' epic characters/challenges?   My character will be equally Role-play worthy and story-driven regardless of whether he's 'average' or 'superman' level.  I prefer playing a character who has a right to call himself epic other than an abundance of XP.

and finally, my guess as to the Hycatoncheidra - Hydra/hecatoncheirs hybrid?


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## Rathan (Apr 23, 2011)

Also Dharuhk Svahre, how do you want HP handled? Roll it... Average HP... Max... something else?


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## Shayuri (Apr 23, 2011)

Hehe, yeah, I'm doing a warlock.

A warforged warlock in fact...doing my Ancient Doomsday Machine concept at last.


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 23, 2011)

Mmmm epic lvl goodness.  

How do you feel about improving specific items, with the premade enhancements in the books, per the MIC ie: adding Holy to a Sunblade)? 

I am of the same mind as Jemal where lvl and epicness is concerned. The greatest beings in creation shouldn't waste their saturday nights playing cards, and should be able to hang in almost any situation, combat or not.

Looks like so far the ranged blaster role is being battled over, there was a multi-caster and a psion mentioned. Maybe something roguely would be a good direction for me to try as my first attempt at a strong druid destroyed the game , unless wipey is what you're expecting.


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## Rathan (Apr 23, 2011)

I've decided to work on a Elan strait Psion for now. I've never been a fan of 6000 classes for one character, never made sense to me. lol

EDIT: Asked by Vertexx as well, but I thought I'd ask here as well, In the DMG it states multiple abilities on one item state highest cost is double plus the other abilities cost as well. so a Belt of Giant Str and Health (Combining an amulet of health and a belt of giant str) would cost 36000 gp for one of the abilities and 72000 for the other correct?


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## Jemal (Apr 23, 2011)

Well I've been talking with my roomie, and he's helped me nail down some specifics on a rather intriguing concept thats been kickin around my head for a while.

It started out as "Ursa the bear god" (He was originally going to be a bug-bear, Wearbear, Bear Warrior.. hehe), but has since evolved into a less bear-specific, more general "Nature's Fury" Druidic kind of character.  He'll be a definite front-line fighter, but He's not a 'brute' nor is he a super-buff mage (Though being a druid, there will be some buffing involved).  He's a fairly peaceful character, slow to anger, but once he's angered.. well, see above re: BEAR

Figured I should run the basics by the DM to see if he has a specific problem with anything (Or questions about why I'm using any particular part)

Feral Half-Ogre Draconic Wearbear Cleric1/Druid3/Sorc4/Geomancer10 with Vow of Poverty.


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## Jemal (Apr 23, 2011)

Rathan/Vertexx - Unless Dharuhk decides to Houserule it, the way item stacking works is thus: 
Take the most expensive function.
Add 1.5X cost of Each other function.

Double the cost (In addition to the 1.5X, for a total of 3X if its not allready the most expensive)) of any function that would be out of place in that slot. (IE adding +6 Str to boots)

EXAMPLES:
Ring of Feather falling/Evasion = 20,000 for Evasion + (2,200X1.5)=3,300 for Feather Fall = 23,300 GP
Boots of Ogres Speed = Belt of Ogres might +6(36,000X2*Wrong slot*)=72,000 + Boots of speed(12,000X1.5)=18,000 = 90,000 GP


Stacking weapons/armour is a lot trickier b/c of the way they do the math on them, for those I'd suggest getting the DM to figure out what he thinks is an appropriate price.


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## HolyMan (Apr 23, 2011)

I have a plot question before I can think on equipment and such.

So we are all trapped on this large island with no memory of our past lives. And we will have all this great gear and abilities and know how to use them. 

Will we know about the world the island is on? Will Know History and other checks be useful? I can get into select forgetfulness as this mad scientist guy knew all the buttons to push. I bet he wanted to make great heroes into his mindless slaves to use to help defeat whoever got in his way. Smart plan but somehow we got out (will we remember that?)

I ask because I may go bard 10. So no need for spellbooks or early morning reading. I am seeing a bardic cleric and go healing and face man. A real wishes to enjoy the finer things in life... wine, women, music, women, art, women, gambling etc. (did I mention women?).

So whatever love goddess your world has he will worship her.

From a crunch aspect how many creature have immunity to sonics?? - Maximized Greater Shout anyone? 

HM


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## Shayuri (Apr 23, 2011)

The only creature immune to sonics that I recall is the destrachan.

Sonic is generally considered to be the top energy choice as far as evading damage reduction. Very little is even resistant, let alone immune. On the other hand, sonic damage spells tend to do less damage per dice than other energies.


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## Jemal (Apr 23, 2011)

Don't forget Slaad.  They were created by the howling chaos of Limbo.  A little sound don't bother them.

EDIT: 
Also, to the DM, Just realized there are a few parts of my currently suggested build that are outside of your listed sources.  
*Dropped Feral b/c it's too over-powered and kinda cheesy, and upgraded Draconic to Half-dragon*

Half-Dragon Half-Ogre Wearbear Cleric1/Druid3/Sorc4/Geomancer9 with Vow of Poverty
Half ogre is from Savage Species. 
What say ye?

*EDIT Response to xp comment: Nay, I know many things far worse than Vow, especially at Epic.


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## Rathan (Apr 23, 2011)

Thanks for the rundown on the item cost rules Jemal.. I'll have you check my numbers later after I get my magic equipment mostly if not totally shored up!


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 23, 2011)

Ok I'm thinking Laosu, is a Vampire (+8LA) Thri-Kreen (non psionic +1LA) 2 / Rogue 10 / Warblade 4 / Master of Nine 5. A shadowy stalker of a warrior poet, who's cold and alien voice spouts dark knowledge from beyond his own grave. (If we go lvl 35 then he will be rogue 15.)


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## ghostcat (Apr 23, 2011)

Have you room for one more?

Looking at Rouge/Shadow Dancer/Perfect Wight.

Also, what are you doing about hit-points?


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 23, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Dharuhk - I believe Shayuri's referring to This page Which is the page I was going to ask to use before I saw that Shay was interested in warlock.
> 
> Well, lets see what other concepts does the red fisted wonder have..
> 
> ...




I didn't say planar travel is bad, I said it doesn't really fit. If you want to go galavanting on the plane of nothings happening until you get bored an dgo back to the plot go ahead . Summoning is just fine. For the epic warlock, I apologize but my time is limited right now so I'll check it over later. As for power level, I don't care how strong you are, but fellow pcs might. If we do have split parties it may be best to have them decently mathcing in the power spectrum. Lastly for your guess, its close but not quite on the mark. 



Rathan said:


> Also Dharuhk Svahre, how do you want HP handled? Roll it... Average HP... Max... something else?




HPs will be rolled. 



Vertexx69 said:


> Mmmm epic lvl goodness.
> 
> How do you feel about improving specific items, with the premade enhancements in the books, per the MIC ie: adding Holy to a Sunblade)?
> 
> ...




I don't like the idea of improving specific items. Honestly in my mind if they were meant to be played with they would have just made them enhancements. And their effects for cost are usually better than norm because they can't be played with.



HolyMan said:


> I have a plot question before I can think on equipment and such.
> 
> So we are all trapped on this large island with no memory of our past lives. And we will have all this great gear and abilities and know how to use them.
> 
> ...




K, first off you got things a little backwards. You still have all your old memories, right up until you died. (everyone make sure they work how they died into their characters btw). You know nothing of the world you are in. To you it might as well be the morning after you died instead of how many years or centuries ect its actually been. As for knowledge checks, they will still be applicable in that you will be applying your knowledge of things you've seen and known in order to make an educated guess. Example: Knowledge history would not give an exact answer of what you want to know, but examples of similar cultures and actions that give your character a reasonable guess.



Vertexx69 said:


> Ok I'm thinking Laosu, is a Vampire (+8LA) Thri-Kreen (non psionic +1LA) 2 / Rogue 10 / Warblade 4 / Master of Nine 5. A shadowy stalker of a warrior poet, who's cold and alien voice spouts dark knowledge from beyond his own grave. (If we go lvl 35 then he will be rogue 15.)




Let me stop you right here, I don't allow Thri-Kreen, Its one of my few dislikes of 3.5 d&d. I apologize if this hinders your concept, everything else is fine.



ghostcat said:


> Have you room for one more?
> 
> Looking at Rouge/Shadow Dancer/Perfect Wight.
> 
> Also, what are you doing about hit-points?




Yes I have room for one more.

Btw, I haven't really used it much before, but the multiquote feature sure is awesome.


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## HolyMan (Apr 23, 2011)

I like my fluff for the bard/cleric so am gearing towards that. Not optimum like some but will be fun.

All our equipment (4.3 million worth ) needs to be on our person correct?

Roll HP - I like that (but I is crazy )

Ok I have a busy weekend and decisions to make but will have something beyond the concept soon.

HM


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## Shayuri (Apr 23, 2011)

A question! The epic feat: Damage Reduction normally gives DR 3/- per application of the feat. Would it be permissible for me to _downgrade_ that to DR 3/cold iron, so it would stack with the natural DR that warlocks gain as a class feature?

Having DR 10/cold iron is better than having DR 7/cold iron and DR 3/-.

Would that be okay?


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## ghostcat (Apr 23, 2011)

Another stupid question/clarification. Does the 90 points 18 max for abilities include ability increases from levelling?


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 23, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre said:


> As an example, one of the planned recurring baddies of this campaign is going to be called a Hycatoncheidra. I'll give a bonus to the first person to figure out what it is



I'm thinking its a type of ancient hundred headed hydra that has gotten so big it is buried underground and heads just pop out of the soil to attack things at random all over the island.

Alrighty then elven vampire it is. It does give me 3 extra class lvls to dump into his classes anyway. So we're at rogue 12 / Swordsage 5 / Master of Nine 5 right now.


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## Jemal (Apr 23, 2011)

So what were your thoughts on my idea for a Half-Dragon Half-Ogre Wearbear Cleric1/Druid3/Sorc4/Geomancer9 with Vow of Poverty?
Half ogre is from Savage Species. 
Vow of Poerty is book of Exalted Deeds.

I'm looking at the ultimate Archdruid.


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 24, 2011)

Lycanthropy can only be passed or born to humanoids and giants. So no matter how you build it, half dragon and were-anything cannot exist in the same body bud. As long as its type is dragon, its immune to the lycan gene. Same with feral as it changes your type to monstrous humanoid. When I built my super beast, I went Minotaur wearbear for a nasty combo. But if flying is your intent, there are a bunch of items that can do it for you around the 50k mark.

*And more questions:*
Can I add the strait money abilities to specific items, like adding Everbright (+2,000g MIC pg34) to the pair of souldrinkers I plan to mainly use?

Since I'm dual wielding would it be ok if I bought pairs of weapon crystals so I can add an effect to both weapons at the same time? 

Can we buy our epic items intelligence, or roll for it randomly? I'm thinking nothing more vocal than empathy to cut down on NPC banter.

How would you feel about using the Pathfinder bonuses and class features for base classes and feat progression?


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 24, 2011)

HolyMan said:


> I like my fluff for the bard/cleric so am gearing towards that. Not optimum like some but will be fun.
> 
> All our equipment (4.3 million worth ) needs to be on our person correct?
> 
> ...




If you want things not on your person we will have to work out the details on a case by case basis.



Shayuri said:


> A question! The epic feat: Damage Reduction normally gives DR 3/- per application of the feat. Would it be permissible for me to _downgrade_ that to DR 3/cold iron, so it would stack with the natural DR that warlocks gain as a class feature?
> 
> Having DR 10/cold iron is better than having DR 7/cold iron and DR 3/-.
> 
> Would that be okay?




I don't like the idea of changing the DR on the epic feat, because there is already a non-epic feat geared for that. Its not quite as good, but it does not use an epic feat so its better and worse. Look up thick-skinned from savage species. Or if you don't have the book, it just increases existing DR by 2.



ghostcat said:


> Another stupid question/clarification. Does the 90 points 18 max for abilities include ability increases from levelling?




Its like rolling, you have your max for the base stat then level and racial bonus ect are all added afterwards.



Vertexx69 said:


> I'm thinking its a type of ancient hundred headed hydra that has gotten so big it is buried underground and heads just pop out of the soil to attack things at random all over the island.
> 
> Alrighty then elven vampire it is. It does give me 3 extra class lvls to dump into his classes anyway. So we're at rogue 12 / Swordsage 5 / Master of Nine 5 right now.




And we have our winner. The answer was a 100 headed hydra. Though in this case since the level ended up being 30, not the max of 40, so you will be fighting one that is currently in development at a mere 41 heads. As for your prize, put a +2 in any ability score you choose. Merry Christmas. Jemal, because you were close I'll give you the runner up prize of a +1 to any stat.



Jemal said:


> So what were your thoughts on my idea for a Half-Dragon Half-Ogre Wearbear Cleric1/Druid3/Sorc4/Geomancer9 with Vow of Poverty?
> Half ogre is from Savage Species.
> Vow of Poerty is book of Exalted Deeds.
> 
> I'm looking at the ultimate Archdruid.




Character looks fun, but we will have to see what to do about the lycanthrope problem. Also, pitch me an epic progression for vow of poverty, and we'll go from there.


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## Shayuri (Apr 24, 2011)

Ahh, I didn't even think to check Savage Species. Thanks for the rules catch there!


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## Rathan (Apr 24, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre I humbly ask you rethink augmenting items to allow for multiple bonuses per item and the like. If we're to be epic... and more powerful the better, regular items just aren't worthy of the epic prowess. To encompass the epic spectrum we really need more diversity to show here that we have the stuff that's allowed us to survive in whatever world we came from to make it to the peak and height an epic level character stands at on a daily basis.

If you ask me this 'epic' prowess requires epic and non-traditional items to back it up, plus the rules in the DMG are given for just such occasions, letting PC's and DM's alike create items not so cookie-cutter. What do you say?


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## Jemal (Apr 24, 2011)

When utilizing templates, you begin with the base creature.  Then you add all inherited templates during the same step (Birth), after which you add aquired templates in whichever order they are aquired.

Both natural Lycanthrope and Half-Dragon are Inherited templates, and since they are both applied at the same time, would be applied in whichever manner is more appropriate.  Since half dragon>Lycanthrope is impossible, you must apply Lycanthrope first, which doesn't change the type but adds the shapechanger subtype.  You then would apply Half-Dragon and the type would become dragon(Shapechanger)

The only time two inherited templates cannot coexist is if no combination of them would be legal, or if any of them cannot be applied to the base creature itself.


As to the Vow, the simplest way is to just continue the natural extension of bonuses that allready acrue, which I'd be perfectly fine with unless you want to introduce more unique abilities (Like the fredom of movement/mind shield/greater sustenance).  The only question I have is do you consider the bonuses to be based on ECL or HD?


----------



## ghostcat (Apr 24, 2011)

As Vertexx69 has bagged the undead rogue spot, I'll go for the party tank instead. Which no-one seems to have claimed. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Still looking at options, so haven't definitely decided what I'll be going with yet.


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## Albedo (Apr 24, 2011)

I'd would like to toss my hat into the ring here if there is still room. I'm thinking of playing a chameleon from races of destiny, along with the draconic heritage feat and practical metagmaic from Races of Dragons, and some silthilar grafts from book of abberations. That should cover non sore/complete sources I want to use. Any objections?


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## HolyMan (Apr 24, 2011)

I think there will be room as I have no time. There is a bunch of things I should have been doing this weekend for other games and I found myself to busy with fleshing out the epic character. 

Thanks for the time and answering the questions right away but alas my second save to resist has succeed. 

Have fun everyone.

HM


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 24, 2011)

Vertexx69 said:


> Lycanthropy can only be passed or born to humanoids and giants. So no matter how you build it, half dragon and were-anything cannot exist in the same body bud. As long as its type is dragon, its immune to the lycan gene. Same with feral as it changes your type to monstrous humanoid. When I built my super beast, I went Minotaur wearbear for a nasty combo. But if flying is your intent, there are a bunch of items that can do it for you around the 50k mark.
> 
> *And more questions:*
> Can I add the strait money abilities to specific items, like adding Everbright (+2,000g MIC pg34) to the pair of souldrinkers I plan to mainly use?
> ...




k, so first off once again no mods on specific items, ehancement or gp value. Second, I mentioned that weapons are an exception to the one item rule, so I'll let the crystals slide. Third, intelligent items are fine. you are epic after all. Lastly, no pathfinder please.



Rathan said:


> Dharuhk Svahre I humbly ask you rethink augmenting items to allow for multiple bonuses per item and the like. If we're to be epic... and more powerful the better, regular items just aren't worthy of the epic prowess. To encompass the epic spectrum we really need more diversity to show here that we have the stuff that's allowed us to survive in whatever world we came from to make it to the peak and height an epic level character stands at on a daily basis.
> 
> If you ask me this 'epic' prowess requires epic and non-traditional items to back it up, plus the rules in the DMG are given for just such occasions, letting PC's and DM's alike create items not so cookie-cutter. What do you say?




Ok, I have no idea what you are actually asking here, so I'm gonna clarify my magic item rules.
Magic Item Stacking: Yes
Magic Item Slot switching: Yes
Item Creation Chart: No
Buying Duplicates of Times/Day Items (i.e. mostly from MiC): No
Adding Enhancements to Specific Weapons/Armor (i.e. souldrinker): No

Hope that helps.



Jemal said:


> When utilizing templates, you begin with the base creature. Then you add all inherited templates during the same step (Birth), after which you add aquired templates in whichever order they are aquired.
> 
> Both natural Lycanthrope and Half-Dragon are Inherited templates, and since they are both applied at the same time, would be applied in whichever manner is more appropriate. Since half dragon>Lycanthrope is impossible, you must apply Lycanthrope first, which doesn't change the type but adds the shapechanger subtype. You then would apply Half-Dragon and the type would become dragon(Shapechanger)
> 
> ...




I work off of HD, not ECL.



Albedo said:


> I'd would like to toss my hat into the ring here if there is still room. I'm thinking of playing a chameleon from races of destiny, along with the draconic heritage feat and practical metagmaic from Races of Dragons, and some silthilar grafts from book of abberations. That should cover non sore/complete sources I want to use. Any objections?




Sounds good. Welcome aboard.



HolyMan said:


> I think there will be room as I have no time. There is a bunch of things I should have been doing this weekend for other games and I found myself to busy with fleshing out the epic character.
> 
> Thanks for the time and answering the questions right away but alas my second save to resist has succeed.
> 
> ...




Sorry to lose you.


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## Rathan (Apr 24, 2011)

EDIT: a ring of protection +5 and a ring of freedom of movement are ok to stack... but making things like un-slotted items (for example a gem of luck) that gives a +5 luck bonus to saves is a no? 

Am I understanding correctly now?


----------



## Jemal (Apr 24, 2011)

Ah, I understand where he's going with the magic items now.  The only thing he's really saying NO to are adding extra enchantments to the 'unique' weapons/armour (Celestial armour, Sunblade, etc).

I'd suggest against doing the unslotted route, it tends to come off as cheezy.  Just pay the 1.5 to add it to something else (Cheaper AND seems less cheezy.. how is that possible?)



Dharuhk - Allright, so if you're working off HD then I'm only lvl 23 equivalent, which is easy as it adds very little following the natural progression of the vow.
Exalted AC, Exalted Strike, Resistance bonus, and Ability scores would each get one more enhancement.

Do you think epic vow should have any additional 'special' abilities (Nonepic gets DR, Sustenance, greater sustenance, Mind shielding, Freedom of Movemnet, True Seeing, Endure Elements, and Regeneration) Either way's good for me, I didn't take it for the abilities, I took it b/c it's one of the few ways to play a non-gear based character without sucking.


----------



## Rathan (Apr 24, 2011)

Right but I also think he's saying no to things like strait luck bonuses to AC and saves as well as it's not an existing item that gives the ability to have these is there that can be increased?

For example there's amulets of Nat. Armor from +1 to +5... there's no items that give +1 to +5 luck bonuses to saves and AC is there? if so I'll stack them to something I have, and if it's an uncommon spot I'll just pay double than x1.5...


----------



## Rathan (Apr 25, 2011)

Rolling my Hit Points in this post... rolls to follow!


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## Shayuri (Apr 25, 2011)

Hm, I should do that too.


----------



## Vertexx69 (Apr 25, 2011)

Alrighty then HP. +9 to my 1st HD for a total of 153.


----------



## Rathan (Apr 25, 2011)

Here's what I got so far... it's just a very rough draft at the moment...

[sblock=Psion 30]
Name: Ja`sul Aruneda
Race: Elan
Class: Psion (Psychokinesis)
Alignment: NG
Level: 30
Gender: Male
Height/Weight: 6'1"/165
Hair/Eyes: Bight Red/Silver Glowing

Str:	18	+4	(12 Points,+6 Enhancement)
Dex:	26	+8	(16 Points, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Con:	26	+8	(16 Points, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Int:	36	+13	(18 Points, +7 Level, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Wis:	24	+7	(14 Points, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Cha:	22	+6	(14 Points, -2 Racial, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Points Unspent: 0

BAB:	+10/+5
HP:	322/322
AC:	36	(10 Base, +8 Dex, +8 Armor, +5 Nat., +5 Deflection)

Saves:
Fort:	+24	(+6 Base, +8 Con, +5 Enhancement, +5 Epic)
Refl:	+24	(+6 Base, +8 Dex, +5 Enhancement, +5 Epic)
Will:	+28	(+12 Base, +6 Will, +5 Enhancement, +5 Epic)

Attacks:

Racial/Special Abilities:

Skills: (396 Points) 33 Max/16.5 Cross Class (*)
Autohypnosis +37 (30 Ranks, +7 Wis)
Concentration +38 (30 Ranks,+8 Con)
Decipher Script* +23 (10 Ranks, +13 Int)
Diplomacy* +10 (4 Ranks, +6 Cha)
Disable Device +16 (8 Ranks, +8 Dex)
Gather Information* +16 (10 Ranks, +6 Cha)
Intimidate +18 (12 Ranks, +6 Cha)
Jump* +12 (8 Ranks, +4 Str)
Knowledge [Psionics] +30 (17 Ranks, +13 Int)
Knowledge [Arcana] +29 (16 Ranks, +13 Int)
Knowledge [The Planes] +30 (17 Ranks, +13 Int)
Knowledge [Nature] +30 (17 Ranks, +13 Int)
Knowledge [Dungeoneering] +30 (17 Ranks, +13 Int)
Knowledge [History] +30 (17 Ranks, +13 Int)
Listen* +13 (6 Ranks, +7 Wis)
Psicraft +46 (33 Ranks, +13 Int)
Search* +23 (10 Ranks, +13 Int)
Sense Motive* +16 (9 Ranks, +7 Wis)
Spellcraft* +19 (6 Ranks, +13 Int)
Spot* +14 (7 Ranks, +7 Wis)
Survival* +14 (7 Ranks, +7 Wis)
Tumble* +18 (10 Ranks, +8 Dex)
Use Magic Device* +16 (10 Ranks, +6 Cha)

Feats: (7 Regular, 4 Epic, 5 Psion Bonus, 3 Epic Psion Bonus)
*Burrowing Power (Make Psicraft check DC 10 + Hardness +1 for each foot of thickness, if succeeded you can hit targets behind walls and force effects etc.)
*Chain Power (Powers that deal elemental dmg, arc hit up to 20 secondary targets for half primary damage.)
*Empower Power (All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half)
*Extend Power (An extended power lasts twice as long as normal.) 
*Weapon Focus (Ray)
*Maxmize Power (All variable, numeric effects of a power modified by this feat are maximized)
*Psicrystal Affinity (This feat allows you to gain a psicrystal)
*Psicrystal Containment (You can spend a full-round action attempting to psionically focus your psicrystal)
*Psionic Meditation (You can take a move action to become psionically focused)
*Quicken Power (You can quicken a power. You can perform another action, even manifest another power, in the same round that you manifest a quickened power. You can manifest only one quickened 

power per round. A power whose manifesting time is longer than 1 round cannot be quickened)
*Split Psionic Ray (You can split psionic rays you manifest. The split ray affects any two targets that are both within the power’s range and within 30 feet of each other. If the ray deals damage, each 

target takes as much damage as a single target would take)
*Twin Power (Manifesting a power altered by this feat causes the power to take effect twice on the area or target, as if you were simultaneously manifesting the same power two times on the same 

location or target. Any variables in the power (such as duration, number of targets, and so on) are the same for both of the resulting powers)
*Epic Psionic Focus (When you expend your psionic focus, you can simultaneously use two feats that require a psionic focus to be expended, instead of just one)
*Epic Psionic Focus (When you expend your psionic focus, you can simultaneously use two feats that require a psionic focus to be expended, instead of just one)
*Epic Psionic Focus (When you expend your psionic focus, you can simultaneously use two feats that require a psionic focus to be expended, instead of just one)
*Epic Expanded Knowledge (You learn one additional power at any level up to the highest level of power you can manifest. You can choose any power, even one that is part of another discipline’s list or 

another class’s list)
*Epic Expanded Knowledge (You learn one additional power at any level up to the highest level of power you can manifest. You can choose any power, even one that is part of another discipline’s list or 

another class’s list)
*Improved Metapsionics (Metapsionic powers you manifest cost 2 power points less than normal [to a minimum of 1 power point]) 
*Improved Metapsionics (Metapsionic powers you manifest cost 2 power points less than normal [to a minimum of 1 power point]) 


Equipment:

Magical Items: 2,488,200 gp
Tome of Clear Thought +5 (137,500 gp)
Tome of Understanding +4 (110,000 gp)
Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 (110,000 gp)
Manual of Quickness of Action +4 (110,000 gp)
Tome of Leadership and Influence +4 (110,000 gp)
Belt of Giant Strength +6 and Health +6 (108,000 gp)
Winged Gloves of Dexterity +6 [See Winged Boots] (68,000 gp)
Cloak of Charisma +6 and Resistance +5 (73,500 gp)
Amulet of Natural Health +6 and Wisdom +5 (104,000 gp)
Circlet [Helm] of Intelligence +6 and Comprehend Langs. and Read Magic (43,800 gp)
Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp)
Ring of Freedom of Movement and Protection +5 (115,000 gp)
Boots of Swiftness [Epic] [Doubles land speed, evasion, +20 to Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks] (256,000 gp)  
Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance [Epic] [SR 40] (290,000 gp)[/sblock]


----------



## Jemal (Apr 25, 2011)

wow, those HD blocks look so... uniform.  Be a shame to mess'em up like this...

*EDIT: Also, forgot my con mod'll be probly +15, so +345, 
total HP = 458.

Aaaand.. here's unfinished work in progress.  A lot of the numbers are in flux and may be wrong, so don't go around dissecting it just yet, this is just to show the direction I'm heading mechanically.
[sblock=Archdruid]
The Archdruid.
Type: Dragon(Giant-blooded, Shapechanger)
Half-Silver Dragon(+3LA) Half-Ogre(+1LA) Wearbear6(+3LA) Cleric1/Druid3/Sorc4/Geomancer9


*First 20 HD for BAB/Saves calculation: Wearbear(6) Druid3/Sorc4/Geomancer7*
AL: NG  HT: 9'4" WT: 1238  Appearance: Large, silvery scales covered with colour-changing fur, Birds eyes, Draconic wings, elongated claws/fangs, Cat's tail, Green eyes.  

*stats/AC/etc are assuming buffs cast*
STR: 70 (+30) [18 Base + 16 Enhancement + 5 Inherent + 30 Racial +1 LVL]
DEX: 30 (+10) [16 Base + 6 Enhancement + 5 Inherent +3 LVL]
CON: 30 (+15) [10 Base + 8 Enhancement + 4 Inherent + 8 Racial]
INT: 18 (+4) [18 Base + 2 Enhancement - 2 Racial]
WIS: 20 (+5) [10 Base + 4 Enhancement + 4 Inherent + 2 Racial]
CHA: 30 (+10) [18 Base + 8 Enhancement + 5 Inherent + 1 LVL]

HP:  (6d10+4d8+9d6+4d4+345)
AC: 57 (10 Base +10 Dex +5 Deflection + 17 Natural Armour +12 Exalted Armour +4 Shield -1 size) 
[47 Flat Footed, 28 touch]
Saves: 
FORT: +34 (14 base + 15 Con + 3 Resistance +2 Epic)  
REF: +24 (9 base + 10 Dex + 3 Resistance +2 Epic)  
WILL: +24 (14 base + 5 Wis + 3 Resistance +2 Epic)

Init: +10  Move: 45/90 fly

Bab: 16(15 base +1 epic)  Grapple : +50 Trip : +30
Claws: +51/51, 1d8+35
Bite: +49, 2d8+50
*Natural attacks overcome DR as Silver, Good, Magic*

Skills(Total/Ranks):[197 Points] Concentration(+48/33), Diplomacy(+45/33), Handle Animal(+10/5), Know:Arcana(+/6), Know: Nature(+/6), Hide(+14/0), Spellcraft(+/33), Spot(+/33), Tumble(+15/5cc), Survival(+/33)
*cc=cross class*
Languages: Common, Sylvan, Giant, Draconic, X

Feats[7]: Sacred Vow, Subduing Strike, Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, Extra Turning, Divine Metamagic: Persistant, Vow of Poverty

Bonus Exalted Feats: Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Sanctify Natural Attack

Epic Feats[1]: 

Racial Features: 
Wearbear: + 10 spd, +5 natural armour, +16 str +2 dex +4 con +2 wis, +4 swim, Alternate Form, Bear Empathy, Curse of Lycanthropy, Lowlight vision, Scent, DR 10/Silver
Half-Silver Dragon: +4 nat armour, +8 str +2 con +2 cha, Improved Racial HD, Wings, Breath Weapon (DC21+con), Immunity: Sleep, Paralysis, Cold
Half-Ogre: Large, +4 nat armour, +6 str -2 dex +2 con -2 int -2 cha, Darkvision.
total Racial stat mods: +13 nat armour, +30 str +8 con -2 int +2 wis

Class Features: Sorc Spellcasting@Level 4, Cleric Spellcasting@LVL 1, Druid Spellcasting@LVL 11, Clerical Domains: Moon(Turn Lycanthropes), Plant(Turn Plants), Turn attempts (X/day, x 3 types)
Ley Lines(Forest, Plains, Hills), Spell Versatility 9, 
Drifts: 
Stage 1: Light Fur, cat's tail
Stage 2: Adaptive skin(+4 hide), Elk's Swiftness(+5 speed)
Stage 3: Bird eyes: Owl&Eagle(+4 spot)
Stage 4: Improved Grab, Fish Gills(Breath Water&Air)
Stage 5: Batsight(Blindsense 30')

Voluntary Poverty: 
Ac bonus +10, Deflection +3, Natural Armour +2, Ability Score Enhancement (+8 cha, +6 dex, +4 wis, +2 int), Exalted Strike +5, DR 10/evil, Energy Resist 15(All), Resistance +3
Endure Elements, Greater Sustenance(no need to eat, drink, breathe), Regen 1/lvl/hour, Mind Shield, Freedom of Movement, True Seeing

Nonviolence/Peace:
+4 save DC's of targeted spells/abilities that do not cause damage/death.
20' radius calming aura (Will DC 35 vs Calm Emotions)
+2 nat armour, Deflection, Exalted armour.(Stacks with Poverty)
May not cause harm/kill living creatures, may not allow allies to kill helpless creatures.

SPELLS: Druid CL 12  
Spells (per day) - Known - List 
LVL 0 (x) - 
LVL 1 (x) - 
LVL 2 (x) - 
LVL 3 (x) - 
LVL 4 (x) - 
LVL 5 (x) - 
LVL 6 (x) - Bite of the wearbear


Daily Cast Buffs :
Persistant Bite of the Wearbear(+16 str, +2 dex, +8 con, +7 nat armour, Bite 2d8+1.5str, 2xclaw 1d8+str, Blind Fight, Power Attack)


Other Buffs:

Equipment: 

Read Books : Dex+5, Str+5, Con+4, Wis+4, Cha+5 (632,500) 
*took vow of poverty @ lvl 19(6th hd), read books before*

MATH SECTION: 
Skills : 
bear: 6X9=54
Cleric: 2X1=2
Druid: 4X3=12
Sorc: 2X4=8
Geo: 4X10=40
INT: 3X27=81
Total skill points = 197

Epic Vow of Poverty: 
AC: 21,24,27,30
Exalted Strike: 23, 26,29
Deflection: 24, 30
Resistance: 23, 27
Ability Score: 23, 27
Nat Armour: 24
[/sblock]


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 25, 2011)

Rathan said:


> EDIT: a ring of protection +5 and a ring of freedom of movement are ok to stack... but making things like un-slotted items (for example a gem of luck) that gives a +5 luck bonus to saves is a no?
> 
> Am I understanding correctly now?




You are correct. All items have to exist before you move slots/combine them. No new items from the item creation chart.



Jemal said:


> Ah, I understand where he's going with the magic items now. The only thing he's really saying NO to are adding extra enchantments to the 'unique' weapons/armour (Celestial armour, Sunblade, etc).
> 
> I'd suggest against doing the unslotted route, it tends to come off as cheezy. Just pay the 1.5 to add it to something else (Cheaper AND seems less cheezy.. how is that possible?)
> 
> ...




k, the base increase looks good. I'm not gonna give any unique powers though, most things trail off when they hit epic to only their continuous effects.

Characters are looking great guys, keep it up. Also, start working on character backgrounds and deciding if you want to play as one large party or split into groups.


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## Albedo (Apr 25, 2011)

How are youworking item crafting? Do we have any XP available to us in order to make things?


----------



## Jemal (Apr 25, 2011)

So just noticed that both Shayuri and Vertexx maxed their first HD, were we supposed to? (Not that the extra couple HP's is gonna matter a lot at this level, just wondering)

My first HD would have been d10's, and my first d10 roll was 7, so it's a whopping THREE hp if we do .


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 25, 2011)

Albedo said:


> How are youworking item crafting? Do we have any XP available to us in order to make things?




I'll say that each pc is has 25% the required xp to get to the next level. That should let anyone willing to invest in the crafting rules have some fun with them.



Jemal said:


> So just noticed that both Shayuri and Vertexx maxed their first HD, were we supposed to? (Not that the extra couple HP's is gonna matter a lot at this level, just wondering)
> 
> My first HD would have been d10's, and my first d10 roll was 7, so it's a whopping THREE hp if we do .




Yes, you always max first HD.


----------



## Vertexx69 (Apr 25, 2011)

I'm coming up 1 feat short in my build, can we take a flaw from Unearthed Arcana for 1 extra feat?

Is this going to be an alternate prime, where a vampire can walk around in the sun without bursting into flame, or am I going to need some kind of continual darkness item?


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 25, 2011)

Vertexx69 said:


> I'm coming up 1 feat short in my build, can we take a flaw from Unearthed Arcana for 1 extra feat?
> 
> Is this going to be an alternate prime, where a vampire can walk around in the sun without bursting into flame, or am I going to need some kind of continual darkness item?




Unfortunatly I won't be allowing Unearthed Arcana. And Vampires will burst into flame so finding a way around that might be a good idea. Either darkness, or a transmutation to change out of being a vampire during the day.


----------



## rangerjohn (Apr 25, 2011)

How about an Elven warrior-mage, either a duskblade or a fighter 5/wizard 5/ eldritch knight 20?


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 25, 2011)

I  think he's about ready now:

[sblock=Hanshu]
	
	



```
[B]Name:[/B] Hanshu Mon'saru
[B]Class:[/B] Rogue/Swordsage/Master of Nine
[B]Race:[/B] Elven Vampire
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Alignment:[/B] Chaotic Neutral

[B]Str:[/B] 52 +21 (18/+6R/+5L/+5I/+10E/+8P)    [B]Level:[/B] 10/7/5 (+8 LA)            [B]XP:[/B] 435,000 (-15,067 with xp Penalty)
[B]Dex:[/B] 30 +10 (18/+6R/+6E)                        [B]BAB:[/B] 15/10/5                     [B]HP:[/B] 152/153 (22d12)
[B]Con:[/B] -- --- (-)                                  [B]Grapple:[/B] +32                  [B]Dmg Red:[/B] 10/S/M
[B]Int:[/B] 20 +05 (18/+2R)                            [B]Speed:[/B] 60'/60'/120'(G)    [B]Spell Res:[/B] -
[B]Wis:[/B] 32 +11 (18/+2R/+4I/+6E/+2Trivia)       [B]Init:[/B] +16                 [B]Spell Save:[/B] -
[B]Cha:[/B] 22 +06 (18/+4R)                              [B]ACP:[/B] -2               [B]Miss Chance:[/B] 20%/50% vs ranged

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Wis   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +12   +7    +10    +10   +11    +10    74(79)
[B]Touch:[/B] 55(60) I60(65)  [B]Flatfooted:[/B] ---

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc*  Total[/B] (*SS/R/L/C/I) +1 Sacred bonus vs evil
[B]Fort:[/B]                      9    +0    +11   +20  (5/2/3/1/0)
[B]Ref:[/B]                       13   +10   +15   +38  (5/5/3/2/0)
[B]Will:[/B]                      9    +11   +15   +35  (5/2/3/1/4)

[B]Weapon                        Attack             Damage     Critical[/B]
Large Katana         (+46 single) +44/+39/+34    2d8+35    17/20 X2
Large Katana                 +44/+39             2d8+20
Guantlet                       +46              4d6+28       X2
Large Comp LongBow (+21)       +30           2d6+22 Force    X3

[B]Languages:[/B] Common, Elven, Draconic, Infernal, Auran, Giant, Abyssal

[B]Abilities:[/B]

Rogue
Sneak Attack +8d6 (9d6 when denied Dex)
Trapfinding
Improved Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +4

Elf
+2 Racial bonus to Listen, Search, Spot
Immune to magic sleep

Vampire
Undead Traits
Slam 1d6+18
Blood Drain
Children of the Night
Dominate
Create Spawn
Energy Drain
Alternate Form
DR 10 / Silver & Magic
Fast Healing 5
Gaseous Form
Resistances 30 Acid/Sonic/Fire/Cold/Electricity
Spider Climb
Turn resistance +4
Skills +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen,
Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Bonus Feats

Swordsage
Initiator level 17
Quick to Act - +2 to initiative
Discipline Focus WF (Diamond Mind)
AC Bonus - +10 Wis bonus to AC
Discipline Focus IS (Tiger Claw) +11 dmg with TC strikes
Sense Magic
Manuevers - K/R 12/6
Stances - 3

Master of Nine
Dual Stance - 10/10 rounds/day
Perfect Form - +1 save DC for manuevers
Counter Stance - Change stance during the use of a counter
Master of 9 - +2 to hit & +9 dmg with all strikes
Manuevers K/R 8/5
Stances 2

Item abilities
Swim - 60ft, Immune to dissolution by submersion in running water
Flying - 120ft (Good), immune to tremorsense
Scentblind - Immune to Scent
Sequestered - Invisible to all sight including see Invisible and true seeing, 
- doesn't become visible after attacks
Nondetection - Divinations and detection items don't work
Ghost fighting - Ignore Icorporeal miss chance
Revelation - Evil Outsiders glow red, Undead glow White, anyone else glows green
Immune to Positive energy spells and effects and blindness
Freedom of movement
Steadfast - Always considered to have main Katana readied against a charge. (AoO deals 4d8+70)
Everbright - Katnanas and shield immune to acid and rusting effects.

[B]Feats:[/B] 
01 2WF
-- I2WF (Bonus Item)
03 EWP (Bastard Sword)
-- Alertness (Bonus Vampire)
-- Combat Reflexes (Bonus Vampire)
-- Dodge (Bonus Vampire)
-- Improved Initiative (Bonus Vampire)
-- Lightning Reflexes (Bonus Vampire)
06 Blind Fighting
09 O2WF
12 Extra Readied Manuever
-- WF (Bastard Sword, Rapier, Short Spear, Trident) (Bonus Swordsage 1)
15 Adaptive Style
18 Darkstalker
21 2WR (epic)

[B]Stances:[/B]
Giant Killing Style - +2 to hit +4 to dmg vs larger enemies
Assassin Stance - +2d6 SA
Giant's Stance - +5ft reach
Aura of Chaos* - Open ended dmg
Crusader Strike - heal 2 per hit to self or ally within 10ft

[B]Manuevers: (Known 20)[/B]
SS1 Saphire Nightmare Blade - Enemy is FF +1d6 with con check
SS1 Counter Charge - Force charging foe to move away from me
SS1 Mountain Hammer - +1d6 ignores DR and hardness
SS1 Stone Bones - DR 5/- with attack
SS1 Wolf Fang Strike - Make an attack with each weapon as standard action
SS1 Soaring Raptor Strike - Jump DC 20  vs larger foe +4 to hit +4d6 dmg
SS2 Burning Blade 
SS3 Shadow Stride - Teleport 50ft as move action
SS4 Searing Charge - Flying Charge deals +5d6 fire dmg
--- Retrain Burning Blade to Emerald Blade - Make melee attack against touch AC
SS5 Pouncing Charge - Make full attack at end of charge
SS6 Disrupting Blow (Will DC38) - Steal actions from foe for 1 round
SS7 Greater Insightful Strike - Deal Con check X2 dmg on regular hit
MN1 Shield Block - Give adjacent ally +11 shield bonus vs 1 melee attack as immediate Interupt
MN1 Divine Surge - +8d8 holy dmg
MN2 Steel Wind - attack 2 foes with standard action
MN3 Iron Heart Surge - end any 1 effect on me with a standard action and gain +2 moral bonus to next hit
MN3 Douse the Flame - foe loses abilty to make AoO for 1 round
MN4 Swooping Dragon Strike - Jump DC = foes AC, foe FF vs hit, +10d6 dmg and fort save DC=Jump for stun
--- Retrain Wolf Fang Strike to Raging Mongoose - Gain 2 extra attacks with each weapon as ImIn
MN5 Feral Death Blow - (Fort DC42) or foe dies, +20d6 if save is made.
MN5 Time Stands Still - Make 2 full attacks

[B]Manuevers: (Readied 12)[/B]
Time Stands Still
Counter Charge
Shadow Stride
Divine Surge
Iron Heart Surge
Searing Charge
Mountain Hammer
Douse the Flame
Feral Death Blow
Pouncing Charge
Swooping Dragon Strike
Raging Mongoose

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 301       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] (25*) 
[B]Skills                   Ranks   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Bluff (19)                 19 (25)     +06    +25
Sense Motive  (25)         25 (25)     +19    +44
Search  (19)               19 (25)     +24    +43
Spot (19)                  19 (25)     +30    +49
Listen  (22)               22 (25)     +22    +44
Hide  (25)                 25 (25)     +47(87)+72(112)
Move Silently (22)         22 (25)     +47    +69
Jump  (25)                 25 (25)     +76    +101
Tumble  (25)               01 (01)     +28    +29
Sleight of Hand  (19)      19 (25)     +11    +30
Use Magic Device (19)      19 (25)     +06    +25
Martial Lore  (18)         10 (10)     +06    +16
Knowledge (History)        10 (10)     +06    +16
Knowledge (Nob & Roy)      10 (10)     +06    +16
Knowledge (Religion)       05 (10)     +06    +11
Knowledge (The Planes)     05 (10)     +06    +11

[B]Equipment: (4,300,000g)                Cost  Weight[/B]

+05 Large Adamantine Katana         203,370g  12lb
-Necrotic Focus +3
-Deadly Precision +2
-Everbright                           2,000g
-Prismatic Burst                     30,000g
-Greater Fiendslayer Crystal          6,000g  --

+05 Large Adamantine Katnana         53,370g  12lb
-Everbright                           2,000g
-Prismatic Burst                     30,000g
-Greater Fiendslayer Crystal          6,000g  --

+05 Defensive Gauntlet               72,302g  01lb

+05 Spellstrike Gauntlet             72,302g  01lb

+1 Large Composite Longbow (22)      52,600g  06lb
-Force +2
-Seeking +1
-Precise +1
-Greater Crystal of Acid Assualt      6,000g

Quiver of Energy                     15,000g  01lb
-Elona's                              2,700g
-Large Arrows X120                       12g

+05 Heavy Adamantine Shield          67,170g  07lb
-Animated
-Ghost Ward
-Everbright                           2,000g
-Greater Agility (+5 Ref)             8,000g  --
-Greater Arrow Deflection Crystal     5,000g  --

Phylactory of Virtue                  6,500g

Sundark Goggles of Insight           20,000g  --
-Detection                           15,000g
-Mindarmor                           15,000g
-Raptor Mask                          5,250g
-Revelation                           2,100g

+5 Amulet of Natural Armor           50,000g
-Wisdom +6                           54,000g  --
-Scentblinder                        12,000g
-Vampire Torc  2/2                    7,500g
-Heartseeking  3/3                    4,500g
-Badge of Glory                       5,400g

Mantle of Great Stealth             242,000g
-Turn Resistance                     16,500g
-Mantle of the Predator              12,000g  02lb

Arms of the Naga                     56,000g  08lb
-Rogues Vest                         27,000g
-Ephod of Authority                   1,200g

Skin of the Hero                     68,000g

+07 Celestial Batalion Armor        616,300g  40lb
-Greater Crystal of Screening         3,000g  --

Gloves of the Balanced Hand           8,000g  --
-Ghost Fighting                       6,000g
-Finned                               5,250g

Strongarm Bracers                     6,000g  10lb
-Bands of Bloodrage   3/3             3,900g

Ring of Sequestering                300,000g  --
-Elemental Resist 30 X5             270,000g  --
-Freedom of Movement                 60,000g
-Positive Protection                 54,000g

+05 Ring of Protection               50,000g  --
-Entropic Deflection                 12,000g
-Arming                               7,500g

+10 Belt of Epic Strength         1,000,000g  01lb
-Cord of Favor                        4,500g

Boots of Swiftness 3/3              256,000g  02lb
-Steadfast                            2,100g

Pale Green (Red Garnet) Ione Stone   30,000g
Dusty Rose Prism Ione Stone           5,000g

Greater Trudeath Crystal X2          20,000g  --
Greater Demolition Crystal X2        12,000g  --

Permenant Girallon's Blessing (CL30)  8,400g  --
Permenant Fuse Arms (CL30)            8,400g  --

+05 Manual of Gainful Excersise     137,000g  --
+04 Tome of Understanding           110,000g  --

Portable Hole                        20,000g
-Silver Coffin w/pipe                   100g
-50 cubic feet of home soil            FREE!

Beltpouch                                 1g  01lb
Orb of Mental Renewal                 3,100g
-Eternal wand of Deeper Darkness     10,900g  01lb
-Eternal Wand of Devil Eye           10,900g  01lb
-Feather Tokens of the Tree X6        2,400g  --
474g

[B]Total Weight:[/B]lb 

                           [B]Lgt   Med     Hvy     Lift     Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]        14,900    200    300    600    1,500

[B]Age:[/B] 1,024
[B]Height:[/B] 6'0"
[B]Weight:[/B] 170lb
[B]Eyes:[/B] Blue
[B]Hair:[/B] White
[B]Skin:[/B] White
```
[sblock=Fluff]*Appearance:* 
In the classic fashion of a bygone era, this striking man could blend into any crowd, on any prime material plane just after sunset. His polished white skin is marbled with the softest network of grey veins. A pair of thin braids fall in front of his long and delicately pointed ears, creating a divider between the white of his stern face and the shining white of the rest of his perfectly combed long hair. When he deigns to slide the pair of burning red lenses down his perfect nose, his pale blue eyes can stop nearly anyone in their tracks.

Dressed in the finest black silks, his supple leather boots and gloves have 
been dyed the deepest crimson. While the outside of the cloak he wears is the fine black fur of some type of hunting cat, but the inside of it is blood red. And the fact that the garment hangs several feet below his hanging feet only accentuates the truth that Hanshu's boots rarely if ever touch the ground. Nobody is surprised when Hanshu simply vanishes from every form of perception, and ragged wounds appear on the enemy before they fall to pieces.

All of his jewelry and accessories, including the pair of prism crystals that 
orbit his head, are made of varying shades of red gemstones set in silver. 
Although he seems to carry no weapons beyond the blackened leather gauntlets on his hands and a quiver on his back, without the slightest indication he can be wielding a huge bow or a pair of immpossibly long black curved blades that shimmer with all the colors of the rainbow if any light reflect off of them. An equally menacing black shield floats beside the ancient vampire, also set with a dark red gem that seems to pull it in front of projectiles sent in its owner's direction.

*Personality:* 
Having been around for over a thousand years before being 
staked, Hanshu has gotten over the whole "Blah I'm evil!" thing and has become something of an altruist. And while he loves nothing more than a good long conversation with a beautiful woman, he is still occasionally plagued by fits of horrendous violence that can be the stuff of blackest nightmare. But for the most part he is the very model of a cultured, if flying, gentleman. This vampire from an age long past is eloquent to a fault, as if his linguistic banter is all that keeps him from slaughtering every living thing in sight.

*Background:*
Hanshu was a legendary thief, even before he drew the attention of the undead 
fiend that killed him... the first time. 

The Early Years
Born of wealth and privledge, a son of the tyranical ambassador Tasau (DC 40)
stole away during the night to live a secret life. In those dark hours that his 
cruel father would have never allowed, he discovered the truth of the world. 
Hanshu's days as a boy were filled with harsh lessons of decorum and poise on 
more than threat of violent reproach, should his presentation be anything but 
perfect. But by night he learned of excess and to hone his instincts, moving 
through alleys that not one of his illustrious tutors would walk down on a dare. 
And while he learned to play the part of the dutiful son like a true prodigy, 
the lavish galas that he was forced to attend, at all the neighboring palaces 
and mansions, became an endless series of scouting missions to case the most 
valuable treasures. Later he would return to liberate these baubles, even though 
he rarely kept what he stole from the oppulent collections.

The military precision of his daily fencing lessons with the palace gaurd served 
him well on more than one occasion, augmented by the savage improv of barroom 
brawlers and backalley sneakthieves. During his formative years Hanshu learned
the brutally versatile mastery of the katana in secret, while using the much 
lighter western blades of a "gentleman" inside the walled courtyard of his 
fathers home. The young aristocrat's fighting style soon became known however,
and during one of his nightly outings, a wealthy onlooker caught the end of an 
arguement between a pair of hooded ruffians where swords were drawn. Word moved
quickly through the circles of highest society, and Hanshu was forced to flee
for his life when his father flew into such a murderous rage at the slight to 
his reputation.

Needing money for the first time in his life, the highborn rogue was very glad to 
possess the skills to suvive. He traveled far from the reach of his blood-thirsty 
father. During a spectacular display of athleticism however the elf attracted the 
most unfortunate attention of a different kind of creature that hungered for the 
blood running through his veins. Hanshu had become quite adept at using words just 
as effectively as a sword and had no trouble finding a soft place to lay his beatiful 
face each night. His reputation as a legendary lover seemed to almost move faster than 
he could, as women began seeking him out to test the legend for themselves. One in
particular watched from the shadows of the brothels and winehalls, to the parlors
and more private chambers of the proper ladies he visited throughout many empires.
And he let her watch, never letting on that he saw her.

Over the decades that followed, rumors abounded that a young elven rogue had fathered 
more than a thousand children throughout the whole of the land. Born of everyone
from the lowliest of tavern wenches to the royal consorts of numerous thrones. (DC 30)
He crossed seas and stole fortunes, from the most ruthless beasts and ancient families,
Nothing and no woman was safe from either the skill or the charms of the gentleman
thief, and wherever he went, the mysterious woman with the fiery eyes watched, 
and waited. Until he discovered her watching him one night. The woman didn't smile,
or introduce herself, or take him to her bed. She simply tore out his throat with
her teeth and drank his blood until it stopped pumping out of him, and left his body
laying in the street. Nothing more than a meal with an interesting story.

The Arisen
Waking in a box not withstanding, discovering himself now a member of the undead
was quite a shock. In all his dealings before that bitch killed him, he had never 
run across any monsters besides those stinking dwarven merchants or those hafling
pipsqueaks. His beautiful golden hair and tanned skin had been drained of all their
lustrous color, leaving him a pale imitation of his former self. But this didn't 
seem to matter to the ladies who took him in that night just before dawn. They
fawned over his pale skin and lovely long white hair, saying over and over how 
lovely and exotic his features were. At sunset he woke covered in their blood,
and ran screaming from the house in a mindless rage. 

For an entire year he fought and screamed in denial at the thing he had become.
He hacked off his hair and carved his flesh only to find himself as handsome and
whole as ever moments later. Weapons did not cut him, poisons could not slay him,
and Hanshu suffered in anguish until he once more felt the craving for blood. 
And then she was there again, that bitch that had done this horrible thing to him, 
the woman with the fiery eyes. 

He attacked her with a fury that he never even knew was inside him. For hours they 
fought, tearing hunks out of eachother with hair and blood flying in all directions.
As the first hints of sunlight touched the horizon, the woman put a bit of distance 
between them, and told him they could keep fighting after sunset if he really needed
to continue. So they met every night for weeks, fighting nonstop from dusk til dawn. 
It became more of a dance after while, once they learned eachother's moves she began
talking to him as he tried to kill her. She told him what he was, how she thought
he could appreciate the gift she had given him, and that she was Evaine (DC 15). But 
his rage could not be placated, and as they continued he started getting closer and 
closer to casuing her serious harm. So with a wink, she blew him a kiss and vanished 
right before his eyes...

The Fury
He raged for centuries, absolutely sure that if he was going to be a monster he would 
do it properly. The elf laid waste to friends, families, sleepy hamlets, and after a
time systematically razed an entire city that gave rise to an entire army of vampire
spawn loyal to the legendary progenitor of the great vampiric plague (DC 35) during 
the second age of monsters, Hanshu. He carted away moutnains of treasure now that he
had no qualms about slaughtering the owners. The shiny bits he had become so acustomed 
to grabbing whenever the opportunity arose became second nature. 

Nothing was safe from his endless rampage be it humanoid, beast, undead or aberration.
Anything that had a mind grew to understand that this unassuming White Elf (DC 10) was
a being so purely malevolent and unmerciful that the only thing they could do if they 
happened to see him coming, was run in the opposite direction. The mindless rabble that
trudged across the surface of the realm stood little chance against the hell that
followed with him. At the head of a tidal wave of pestilence, nations were divided by 
the swaths of destruction he wrought across whole continents. Many fiends and monstrous
races crawled out of the woodwork as they were driven into the open by death weilding 
swords instead of the more traditional scythe. 

Petty squabbles were put aside, power struggles were paused, and kingdoms that had been
at war for generations were suddenly facing an adversary that they could not vanquish 
on their own. Legions of heroes, adventurers, and treasure seekers arose as the 1st
crusade (DC 20) swung into full gear. The cowering masses of civilization grew angry
and took to the streets, burning out every sewer, swarming through every abandoned
building, and scouring every cave for any creature unlike themselves...and kill it.
The parade of hunters that saught Hanshu out to make a name for themselves, honed his
skill with his katanas that he could channel massive energy through his blades...

The Awakened
Eight hundred years of slaughter saw The White Elf span not only several entire material 
planes but many inner and outer planes as well. Slowly and against all odds, Hanshu had
grown weary of the sounds of screams. So he desided to seek knowledge for a while 
instead of carnage. He began to quest for the most ancient keepers of secret lore and
martial ways...the Masters of the Nine. Atop the highest spire of a forgotten mountain
range on the plane of shadow sat the timeless ruin of a temple. In the center of this
temple, an insectoid being hovered before a single candle in the lotus position. Its
four segmented hands continually moved through a series of alien gestures in smooth
and flowing motions as it stared past the flame. Hanshu wasn't sure if the creature was
conscious or blind or insane as it did not acknowledge his presence as the powerful 
vampire stepped through the broken archway and took a seat opposite the tiny flame, 
without uttering a word.

Clu'Thrah (DC 25) was a true Master of Nine and had also grown tired of the incessant 
noise of other things some time before. So the Thri Kreen became the instructor to 
a vampire that was nearly 750 years his senior. Each movement was copied as closely
as a different species could, and the energy flowed between them. From far across the 
demi-plane of shadow massive flashes of light could be seen silloueting the temple 
against the empty blackness above the ground of that desolate place. 

Placing the last great stone at the foot of the master's grave Hanshu placed a pale 
hand on the sarcophogus he had fashioned for his friend and teacher in the center of
the temple that become a home for many years. Without the life force of the old bug
however, the ruin suddenly seemed like nothing more than a pile of rocks. So he left
the plane of shadow for the last time, it was time to go back and see the plane he had
originally called his own.

His material plane had changed a great deal since the last time he had seen it. Monsters
openly roamed the countryside while the peoples of the land cowered in their homes.
The great cities that had dotted the lands had been razed nothing but ash, and the great
nations that had claimed them had been all but forgotten. Fueldal lords claimed as much 
land as they could, but no more as the terrors that strode through the heavy fog banks
were more than most bands could handle. A few of the people he passed in the towns he 
visited bore a passing resemblance to the vampire that passed them unnoticed in the dark.
He found vampire spawn hiding here and there in his travels cowering in graveyards and
ancient sewer systems, snatching babies and drunks in the night.

Hanshu eventually figured he should do something with the veritable ocean of cash he had 
accumulated in a myriad of hidden places throughout the lands he had demolished centuries 
before. So he decided to build a city just for his kind. He found a bottomless fissure 
deep in the misty eastern mountain range and set out hiring every stonemason he could find
to carve a city from the living rock in the insides of the great chasm. The city of 
Mon'Sharu (DC 20) was completed in a mere twenty years with the limitless wealth that 
the White Elf had at his dispossal. 

Word spread through the underworld that vampires were welcome in the new city of shadows.
Beastly spellstitched barbaric vampires came flooding off the windswept plains. Little 
more than mindless slavering atrocities, Hanshu was ashamed of his own race for the first 
time in half a millenium. Eventually other old vampire would trickle into town, trying to
throw their weight around in the same old ways about the same old topics. This way is 
better than that way, or my idea is better than your idea. And the vampire nation suddenly 
had a capital. Living workers were brought in from all over and slowly farmed for food
without leaving a huge festering pile of bodies for families to miss and get angry about.
Things were going well in Mon'Sharu for quite some time, when who should walk into the 
private chambers of Hanshu himself but the fiery eyed Evaine in the 2 millenium old flesh.
"You ready for the next round?" 

The Cleansing of Mon'Sharu
Like so many other societies and kingdoms before, people like having something to blame 
besides themselves. Hanshu and Evaine stroll across one of the bridges that span the two 
sides of the fantastic city he had built, hand in hand getting ready to retire for the 
short day. None of the other vampires were allowed on the lowest levels where they shared 
quarters. The sun was just touching the top of the western face as the warning bells 
sounded as clay pots of oil began to rain into the chasm of Mon'Sharu shattering against 
the high stone walls. Soldiers began to flow into the city, down the steps and ladders 
and bridges like water. Every moment that passed brought the sun closer to flooding the 
open portions of the city in deadly sunlight. The vampires tore through soldiers as if 
they were made of tissue paper, but the living horde of enemy soldiers were spurred on 
by the deep pockets of greedy men who wanted the prosperous city of shadows for themselves.

The elder vampires emerged from their chambers to wade into the fray with prescious little
time to spare before the sun bathed them in fiery death. An eerie Deeper darkness rose from 
the bottom of the city as Hanshu himself entered the battle to protect what he had spent so 
long creating. Wooden arrows rained down from above as battalions of archers on the slopes 
above, emptied quivers in high arcs toward the yawning mouth of the fissure in the side of the
mountainous peaks. A few of the elder vampires were not among these undead warriors however,
Anlar, Ronshuvian and Bakalus (DC 35) could not be found.

From outside the city and down the slope of the mountain, a dark curtain started to rise from
the chasm like a sunrise in reverse. Hanshu flashed up into the air above the edge of the cliff
face with that all too familiar burning rage bright in his eyes. He slaughtered hundreds in a 
strait line from the city to the malevolently grinning generals at the back of the army. 
This wasn't some ragtag army of a neighboring kingdom, but a quiltwork merc army of specialized
squads. This army wasn't on any crusade - they had been hired. Moments before the white elf got
to the leaders of this rabble however, the order was given and a special platoon of fire archers
let blazing arrows fly into the oil soaked city. 

The wall of flame that was belched forth from the enterance of the hidden city shot hundreds
of feet into the sky. And to make matters worse, within moments of that fateful instant the sun
reached its zenith and the open center of Mon'Sharu was illuminated by the harsh light of day.
The roars of ancient vampires exploding rocked the montainside, knocking half the remaining
army from their already shaky feet as hanshu cut the last of the generals in half with a massive
single blow that spun him back towards the city just as all this happened. He raced back to the 
burning city as fast as he could cut a path back through the milling sea of archers, his arms 
and legs peirced by so many arrows that he could barely swing his massive swords. So dismissing 
them to the ring that was their sheath, he flew up above the flailing bodies to get back to her.

Topping the edge of the city once more, Hanshu saw all that he had built charred black. The 
darkness that traveled with him creating a small area of shade from the burning sun. He flew
down to where Evaine had been fighting before, but the ashes of fallen vampires and men was thick 
on these lowest levels. He tore through the deeper chambers where the suns rays and splashed oil
could not penetrate to no avail. Crossing to the other side of the city in a frenzy, he could 
not believe what his eyes saw there. The group of old and sodded vampires had Evaine on her knees,
and beheaded her right in front of him, her body falling to ash from the bridge where she was 
executed by her own kind. The roar that escaped him then silenced all other sounds of battle, as
the satisfied smirks vainshed from the undead faces that now looked upon their final deaths.

As Hanshu rose from bridge to close with the traitorous fiends, a trio of wicked black arrows
sprouted from his chest, unable to have passed anywhere but strait through his cold dead heart.
The gorgeous white skin of his chiseled face withered into the blackened husk of anything that
had been dead for almost a thousand years must look like. And the last thing he saw as he fell into
the abyss beneath his city of Mon'Sharu was the grins return to the greedy faces of petty things
before he vanished beyond the reach of the suns rays. 

Bouncing off the rocky walls of the chasm, the body was broken and battered as a sound Hanshu could 
barely hear grew louder and louder. The fissure actually did have a bottom, as an underground river 
raged from one end to another, and that would be his true end. No vamipre could sink beneath the 
surface of rushing water without being utterly destroyed forever. However when the desicated body 
of Hanshu finally hit the bottom, it was not reported with a splash, but with a bristly dry crunch. 
His staked form had become wedged in a rocky outcrop, barely a few yards from the roiling black 
water where no vampire could come to find it. So there he laid slain and oblivious...again, little 
more than a chunk of firewood wrapped in spectacular magic items where nobody ever thought or 
cared to look for the legendary White Elf - Hanshu.[/sblock]The Lore of Hanshu [sblock=Knowledge (History)]
DC 18 The Vampire that sired him was named Evaine. Hanshu tried to kill her for weeks after she
turned him. She met her final death during the cleansing of Mon'Sharu, after living with him
there for many decades.

DC 27 Hanshu was known on many planes as The White Elf. Reputed to have been given to him by a 
demonic beast who's name has been lost to the sands of time. But it was rumored that the loss of
several limbs was involved.

DC 29 Caused the 1st crusade after his vampiric army became a scrouge to the entirety of living
society, leading to the genocide of all things unnatural.

DC 35 Founded Mon'Sharu, the city of shadows in a mountain ravine.

DC 35 Before he was turned into a vampire, Hanshu supposedly fathered more than 1000 children by
nearly as many women. His line has survived to this day.

DC 36 Hanshu spawned the vampiric plague that began the second age of monsters, by slaughtering
the entire population of a small city single handedly, who then rose and spread across the land.

DC 41 The Master of Nine that taught Hanshu his true mastery of combat manuevering was Clu'Thrah.
Near the end of his time training Hanshu, the Thri Kreen died of extreme old age on the demiplane
of shadow. 

DC 43 Hanshu's father was the Ambassador Tasau Mon'saru, who tried to kill Hanshu for streetfighting
as he saw it as an afront to his reputation. He is also where Hanshu got his legendary mean streak.
He was one of the first people Hanshu ate after rising as a vampire.

DC 55 The traitorous vampires Anlar, Ronshuvian and Bakalus hired the mercenary army that cleansed
the city of Mon'Sharu that ultimately lead to Hanshu's slaying. 

Random Knowledge mods (1d20=17, 1d20=3, 1d20=15, 1d20=9, 1d20=16, 1d20=5, 1d20=1, 1d20=20, 1d20=3)[/sblock][sblock=Knowledge (Planes)]
DC 27 Hanshu was known on many planes as The White Elf. Reputed to have been given to him by a 
demonic beast who's name has been lost to the sands of time. But it was rumored that the loss of
several limbs was involved.

DC 41 The Master of Nine that taught Hanshu his true mastery of combat manuevering was Clu'Thrah.
Near the end of his time training Hanshu, the Thri Kreen died of extreme old age on the demiplane
of shadow.[/sblock][sblock=Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)]DC 35 Before he was turned into a vampire, Hanshu supposedly fathered more than 1000 children by
nearly as many women, including many in the royal courts of several thrones. His line has survived to this day.

DC 43 Hanshu's father was the Ambassador Tasau Mon'saru, who tried to kill Hanshu for streetfighting
as he saw it as an afront to his reputation. He is also where Hanshu got his legendary mean streak.
He was one of the first people Hanshu ate after rising as a vampire.[/sblock][/sblock]

Below is a test attack with my big power, the Feral Death Blow. Figuring the enemy makes its DC 42 fort save to not die outright, with flanking against an evil outsider that isn't immune to crits with my dual stance power active using aura of chaos and assassin's stance:


----------



## rangerjohn (Apr 25, 2011)

Is there any other way to channel a spell through a weapon?


----------



## Scott DeWar (Apr 25, 2011)

rangerjohn said:


> Is there any other way to channel a spell through a weapon?




 Spell sword 

Scott-the lurker-DuWar


----------



## Shayuri (Apr 25, 2011)

Okay, here's my Works In Progress. They're not ready for primetime...but any questions and comments are welcome. I have two concepts, both warlocks. One is an ancient tool of pyrrhic vengeance; a sentient doomsday machine of magic and technology unleashed on one ancient empire by another as it fell.

Omega has two things in its favor: firepower and durability. It hasn't got much fluffy noncombat abilities or skills. With 2 blasts per turn doing 16d6 each, Omega outputs the equivalent of a Meteor Swarm every turn that it can take a full attack. It cannot be fooled by illusion or concealment. It can fly, and engage in combat while completely invisible. It doesn't feel hunger, thirst, or fatigue. And it absolutely will not stop...ever...until your species is dead.

Damage reduction, spell resistance, and a mithril buckler that repulses anything that requires a ranged attack roll all spell serious defenses. Melee is Omega's weak spot...and it is quite effective at avoiding it.

[sblock=Omega]Name: Omega
Race: Warforged
Class/Level: Warlock 30
Exp: 

Desc: Khachaturian

Strength (STR) 10
Dexterity (DEX)	18 + 4 inherent + 6 enh = 28
Constitution (CON) 20 +4 inh + 6 enh = 30
Intelligence (INT) 10
Wisdom (WIS) 16 - 2 race = +4 inherent = 18
Charisma (CHA) 18 -2 race + 7 level + 5 inherent + 8 enh = 36

Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
AC: 44 (10 +6 dex +10 armor +6 shield +5 deflection, +5 natural +2 insight), Flatfoot 37, Touch 23
Hit Points: 397
Movement: 30' (30' flight, Good)

Init: +9
Base Attack Bonus: +20/+15/+10
Melee Attack: +20/+15/+10
Ranged Attack: +29/+24/+19
Fort: +28 (+6 base +8 resist +10 Con + 5 epic)
Reflex: +30 (+6 base +8 resist +9 dex + 5 epic +2 insight)
Will: +29 (+12 base +8 resist + 4 Wis + 5 epic)

Race Abilities
Construct type, living subtype
immune to poison, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain. 
Cannot heal damage naturally. 
Cannot be healed by Cure spells 
Stasis at 0 through -10 HP. 
Does not eat, sleep, or breathe. 
Composite plating: +2 armor bonus, as light armor. 
Light Fortification, 25% chance to avoid critical hits/sneak attacks. 
Natural weapon, one slam attack for 1d4+Str.

Class Abilities:
Eldritch Blast 16d6
Detect Magic at will
DR 9/cold iron
Deceieve Item (take 10 on UMD checks, even under stress)
Fiendish Resilience 25, 5 minutes
Energy Resistance 10: Fire and Cold
Imbue Item

Skills:	8 + 58
Concentration +20 (10 ranks + 10 Con)
Knowledge (The Planes) +24 (24 ranks + 0 Int)
Spellcraft +24 (24 ranks + 0 Int)
Use Magic Item +20 (8 ranks + 12 cha)

Spot +12
Listen +12
Search +8
Intimidate +13

Feats
1 Mithril Body
3 Ability Focus: Eldritch Blast
6 Extra Invocation: Hideous Blow
9 Extra Invocation: Void Sense
12 Improved Fortification (no crits)
15 Craft Contingent Spells
18 Thick Skinned (+2 DR/cold iron)

21 Eldritch Sculptor
23 Extra Invocation: Path of Shadows
24 Epic Fiendish Resilience
26 Extra Invocation: Dark Foresight
27 Paragon Visionary
29 
30 Fast Healing

Languages - Common

Invocations (All Eldritch Blast effects are DC 34 to resist, where applicable)
Least
- Eldritch Spear
- Devil's Sight
- See the Unseen 
- Hideous Blow

Lesser
- Eldritch Chain
- Fell Flight
- Flee the Scene
- Voidsense

Greater
- Eldritch Cone
- Devour Magic
- Vitriolic Blast

Dark
- Dark Foresight
- Retributive Invisibility
- Utterdark Blast 
- Eldritch Doom 
- Path of Shadows

Equipment 25,220

Armor
- +5 Mithril Body, +10 AC, Max Dex +6, ACP 0, 100k
-- Ghost Touch +3
-- Death Ward +1
-- Nimbleness +1

Repulsor Plate, +6 AC, ACP 0, 1.69mil
- +5 Mithril Buckler
-- Exceptional Deflection +8

Weapons
Slam, +20 to hit, 1d4 dmg
Eldritch Blast, +31 ranged touch, 16d6 dmg, 2 atks on full action

Gear
Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance, .29mil
Vest of Epic Resistance +8, .64mil
Headpiece of Epic Charisma +8, .64mil
Third Eye of Concealment, 120,000
Belt of Prowess, 90,000
- +6 enh to Dex, 36,000
- +6 enh to Con, 36,000
- 50% combo charge, 18,000
Ring of Protection +5, 50,000
Ring of Spell Turning, 98,280
Essence of Offense and Defense, 77,000
- Natural Armor +5, 50,000
- Greater Chauseble of Fell Power, 18,000
- 50% Combo charge, 9,000
Rod of Mystic Precision, 12,000

Tomes: 467,500
+4 Dex, 110,000
+4 Con, 110,000
+4 Wis, 110,000
+5 Cha, 137,500


Background: Pending
[/sblock]


My second concept is a pixie...one of the really old ones who's managed to accrue some real power. This character is more personable, more "flexible" in terms of powers and skills, but pays for it with a reduction in firepower and durability. Blast is down to 14d6 (x2), though she has some powers other than blasts to toss now too. DR is actually higher, but hit points are down and, crucially, the protection against ranged attacks is gone. Ironically, this could mean I'll take Hideous Blow and have the pixie specialize more in short-range and melee combat...using superior mobility to freely switch things up.

Pixie is more fragile, but...unlike Omega...can be healed magically, so there's that too.

[sblock=Pixie Power!]Name: Something
Race: Pixie
Class/Level: Warlock 26
Exp: 

Desc: Khachaturian

Strength (STR) 6
Dexterity (DEX)	26 + 4 inherent + 6 enh = 36
Constitution (CON) 18 +4 inh + 6 enh = 28
Intelligence (INT) 16
Wisdom (WIS) 16 + 4 race +4 inherent = 24
Charisma (CHA) 18 +6 race + 6 level + 4 inherent + 8 enh = 42

Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
AC: 45 (10 +13 dex +8 armor +5 deflection, +6 natural +2 insight + 1 size), Flatfoot 31, Touch 31
Hit Points: 26d6 + 240
Movement: 20' (60' flight, Good)

Init: +13
Base Attack Bonus: +18/+13/+8
Melee Attack: +16/+11/+6
Ranged Attack: +32/+27/+22
Fort: +27 (+6 base +8 resist +9 Con + 3 epic)
Reflex: +32 (+6 base +8 resist +13 dex + 3 epic +2 insight)
Will: +30 (+12 base +8 resist + 7 Wis + 3 epic)

Race Abilities
•-4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.
•Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
•A pixie’s base land speed is 20 feet. It also has a fly speed of 60 feet (good).
•Low-light vision.
•Skills: Pixies have a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
•Racial Feats: A pixie receives Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats.
•+1 natural armor bonus.
•Special Attacks (see above): Spell-like abilities.
•Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/cold iron, greater invisibility, spell resistance equal to 15 + class levels.
•Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling.
•Favored Class: Sorcerer.
•Level adjustment +4 (+6 if the pixie can use irresistible dance).

Class Abilities:
Eldritch Blast 14d6
Detect Magic at will
DR 6/cold iron
Deceieve Item (take 10 on UMD checks, even under stress)
Fiendish Resilience 25, 5 minutes
Energy Resistance 10: Fire and Cold
Imbue Item

Skills:	

Feats
b Dodge
b Weapon Finesse
1 Fey Heritage
3 Spell Penetration
6 Greater Spell Penetration
9 Ability Focus: Eldritch Blast
12 Fey Skin
15 Thick Skin
18 Extra Invocation: Painful Sleep of Ages

21 Eldritch Sculptor
23 Epic Fiendish Resilience
24 Paragon Visionary 
26 Fast Healing

Languages - Common

Invocations
Least
- Eldritch Spear
- Devil's Sight
- See the Unseen 

Lesser
- Eldritch Chain
- Voidsense
- Flee the Scene

Greater
- Eldritch Cone
- Devour Magic
- Vitriolic Blast
- Painful Sleep of the Ages (DC 34)

Dark
- Dark Foresight
- Utterdark Blast (DC 36)
- Eldritch Doom

Equipment 25,220



Weapons


Gear
Vest of Epic Resistance +8, .64mil
Headpiece of Epic Charisma +8, .64mil
Third Eye of Concealment, 120,000
Belt of Con, 36,000
Ring of Protection +5, 50,000
Ring of Spell Turning, 98,280
Amulet of Offense and Defense, 77,000
- Natural Armor +5, 50,000
- Greater Chauseble of Fell Power, 18,000
- 50% Combo charge, 9,000
Rod of Mystic Precision, 12,000

Tomes: 440,000
+4 Dex, 110,000
+4 Con, 110,000
+4 Wis, 110,000
+4 Cha, 110,000


Background: Pending
[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Apr 26, 2011)

Vertexx, keep in mind that Epic games are only truley fun when all the characters are relatively on par with each other.  That's why I tried to keep mine on the lower end of the power scale.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 26, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Vertexx, keep in mind that Epic games are only truley fun when all the characters are relatively on par with each other. That's why I tried to keep mine on the lower end of the power scale.




There still is the decision as to how many parties we want to have. Any higher powered players can be grouped together for party balance if thats the rought we choose.



rangerjohn said:


> How about an Elven warrior-mage, either a duskblade or a fighter 5/wizard 5/ eldritch knight 20?




I'm all for it.

Shayuri: I'm kinda partial to the first build myself, but thats just me. One thing to add though is I'd like to suggest to you taking the Shield of Infinite Arrow Deflection instead of Exceptional Deflection. You already have a ring of spellturning, which means targeted spell effects will simply bounce off you anyways. I think you might get alot more milage out of deflecting all standard ranged attacks a round instead of 1 non-standard attack.

Vertexx: Looks good, but I would like you to flesh out how your character died a bit more. Its important to your starting perceptions of the world, and to how your legend is known to others. 

Btw, a few more things to slip in here. Not only do I need how your characters died, I need WHEN your characters died as well. As such, pick a number between 1 and 10,000 and slot your life span into it. Remember to figure out how old you were. This can also be important because later players will know of the older players exploits.


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## Rathan (Apr 26, 2011)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Vertexx, keep in mind that Epic games are only truley fun when all the characters are relatively on par with each other. That's why I tried to keep mine on the lower end of the power scale.
> 
> *STR: 70 (+30)* [18 Base + 16 Enhancement + 5 Inherent + *30 Racial* +1 LVL]
> DEX: 30 (+10) [16 Base + 6 Enhancement + 5 Inherent +3 LVL]
> ...




How is that lower on the power scale???!!! that's past epiclike and into godlike! I can't even come close to 40 in any stat let alone 70! I'm just not that great a building epic characters... but I love doing so!

EDIT: I fear I am slightly out of my league here....

EDIT2: Dharuhk Svahre... how are you handling Power Resistance vs. Spell Resistance? Are things with spell resistance still resistant to Psionic powers as well or do they need Power Resistance as well?


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## Shayuri (Apr 26, 2011)

_Shayuri: I'm kinda partial to the first build myself, but thats just me. One thing to add though is I'd like to suggest to you taking the Shield of Infinite Arrow Deflection instead of Exceptional Deflection. You already have a ring of spellturning, which means targeted spell effects will simply bounce off you anyways. I think you might get alot more milage out of deflecting all standard ranged attacks a round instead of 1 non-standard attack._

Well, this is an interesting question. But I'll explain my reasoning and see what you think.

1) The Ring of Spell Turning doesn't work on spells that have ranged touches. Such spells create effects, and are specifically excluded from Spell Turning per the spell description: _Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells._

Plus, it's limited uses per day. I bought it to deal with spells that target me directly and pierce my SR. Such spells are normally of the variety (Implosion...Finger of Death...etc...) that you do NOT want to be subject to. 

2) The Exceptional Deflection shield trait uses identical phrasing to Infinite Deflection. A case can be made for it operating just as Infinite Deflection, but covering a wider range of attacks. This would account for it being so much more expensive than Infinite Deflection when otherwise its relative strength would be comparable. From the SRD under Epic Magic Items:

*Exceptional Arrow Deflection*: This shield functions like a shield of arrow deflection except that it can deflect any type of ranged attack (including spells that require a ranged touch attack) as if it were an arrow. _Any time_ the bearer would normally be struck by a ranged attack, he or she can make a Reflex saving throw (DC 20). If the ranged attack has an enhancement bonus (or a spell level), the DC increases by that amount. If he or she succeeds, the shield deflects the attack. The bearer must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. _Attempting to deflect a ranged attack doesn’t count as an action._

Italics added by me. Compare to:

*Infinite Arrow Deflection*: This shield functions like a shield of arrow deflection, though it can deflect any number of projectiles or thrown weapons each round. _Any time_ the bearer would normally be struck by a ranged weapon, he or she can make a Reflex saving throw (DC 20). If the ranged weapon has an enhancement bonus, the DC increases by that amount. If he or she succeeds, the shield deflects the weapon. The bearer must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. _Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action_. Exceptional ranged weapons, such as boulders hurled by giants or ranged spells, can’t be deflected.

And NOW compare to:

*Great Reflection*: _Any time_ its bearer of this shield is targeted with a spell, it automatically reflects the spell back at the caster (as the spell turning spell). The wearer can lower or raise this effect as a free action (thus allowing beneficial spells in as desired).

...

If Exceptional Deflection only worked 1/rnd, then it would be perhaps a little more powerful than Infinite Deflection, which works against all incoming attacks, but of a limited subset. But the Exceptional Deflection trait is +8, compared to +6. That translates to hundreds of thousands of GP difference, and potentially several character levels before it becomes available.

My thought is that Exceptional Deflection works identically to Infinite Deflection, only improved. It's basically Infinite Deflection plus Exceptional ranged attacks too. Hence the power jump. 

What do you think?


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 26, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Vertexx, keep in mind that Epic games are only truley fun when all the characters are relatively on par with each other.  That's why I tried to keep mine on the lower end of the power scale.



I just tried to make something that can survive against epic lvl mobs. Keep in mind that the above test attack was a crit that got the highest possible dmg prismatic effect and most epic critters have epic DR and regeneration which I can't get by. So knock roughly 150 dmg off that total for my biggest attack, and Hanshu is down to about the same dmg as a full attack by the archdruid. Then remember 40% of mobs are immune to crits and there goes another 9d6 of my dmg. And as a rogue I'm supposed to deal more dmg in melee than anyone else, and I'm not actually that hard to hit by CR 30ish mobs either.


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## Rathan (Apr 26, 2011)

After careful consideration... based on what I'm seeing here character wise... and for me time wise I think it best I bow out now and give someone else a shot who know what he or she is doing heh. 

As much as a love making higher level character I feel I am outclassed here by leaps and bounds. I just don't have the sources or the grasp on combining classes, feats, and magic items etc... to make my character even remotely as effective and some I've seen so far. 

I wish you all the best of luck and I'll be watching the thread often!


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 26, 2011)

Rathan: Sorry to lose you, but if thats what you want...

Shayuri: First off, Spell turning does not work on Touch range spells, it DOES work on ranged touch spells. Anything your shield would deflect would by applicable basically.

Secondly, you're forgetting that both feats reference back to the shield of arrow deflection, which specificaly states once per round. While the description does say anytime in the scentence afterwards, I do believe its referring to circumstance of use, not frequency, as infinite deflection goes out of its way to state there is no limit, but only works when attacked by regular attacks.


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## Shayuri (Apr 26, 2011)

It's the usage of the phrase -any time- that I was finding compelling. For both Great Reflection and Infinite Deflection, the phrase "any time" means just what it says. Not limited by times per round and so on, but any time.

However, if that's your ruling, I'll accept it. It does make Exceptional Reflection rather...overpriced.

As for Spell Turning...it's true that it is not explicitly barred from affecting "ranged touch" spells as a category, however, all the ranged touch spells I can find have Effects...and those ARE specifically barred from being affected by Spell Turning. I print an example:

Scorching Ray
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2 
Components: V, S 
Casting Time: 1 standard action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
*Effect: One or more rays* 
Duration: Instantaneous 
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: Yes

Boldface is from me. Thus, Scorching Ray would not be subject to Spell Turning. Moving on to another example...

Disintegrate
Transmutation
Level: Destruction 7, Sor/Wiz 6 
Components: V, S, M/DF 
Casting Time: 1 standard action 
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) 
*Effect: Ray *
Duration: Instantaneous 
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (object) 
Spell Resistance: Yes

You see where I'm going with this. Although there could, in theory, be a spell that uses a ranged touch and is not an "effect," in practice, there aren't any such spells in the SRD that a relatively quick read through the Sorceror/Wizard spell list could reveal to me.

Anyway, I'll make some tweaks. Perhaps a wand of Ray Deflection, from Spell Compendium...as an interim solution at least...


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## ghostcat (Apr 26, 2011)

Just to let you know I am still here and beavering away behind the scenes. I'm just not has far along as the others. After a few false starts I have finally decided on a high dex fighter, with some combination of Ranger, Swashbuckler, Dervish.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 26, 2011)

Shayuri: The fact that both the exceptional deflection shield and the infinite deflection shield say 'any time' is actually what convinces me that Exceptional does only work once per round. If the use of any time implied that it could be used as many times as you wanted, the Infinite Deflection shield would not specifically state before hand it works on any number of attacks each round. As the Exceptional does not state that, it indicates to me at least that it is not intended to do so.

I know we have moved past that part, but I just wanted to make sure you knew why I feel this way.

Now, back to the spell turning. As far as I can tell, you are correct in the ray/effect thing, however I am going to use my all mighty powers as the DM to change that. Ray spells are called effects because Ray's can have effects that have durations, while the ray itself dissappears after use. Its an oversight of Spell Turning. There is no reason logically why you can turn magic missiles, but not magical beams. As such I will call rays an exception to the effect rule on spellturning.

Everyone: Now, I'm adding a bit of homework to character backgrounds as to how they pertain to knowledge checks. I would like each character to have 5-10 things known about them or exploits thay have accomplished, or important events they were involved in. After that, pick a knowledge skill (or more should you choose) to be associated with your character, in addition to knowledge history. Then I would like you to pick a base Knowledge Check DC for each piece of info between 10 and 40, then add a d20 to determine the Knowledge check DC.

This process is optional for you to do, however I will warn anybody who chooses to skip the process or submit less than 5 things that I will be going through your characters and choosing information and DCs myself. Long story short if there are facts about your character you want to remain hidden, then choose for me.


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## Ruiktheforgotten (Apr 27, 2011)

hey posting to show some interest in this game will be working on a character


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 27, 2011)

Welcome aboard. Got a character concept on the go yet?


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 27, 2011)

I posted Hanshu's background with his sheet on page 5. 

So as of right now we have:

*Hanshu* (me) Elven Vampire, 
- Rogue/Swordsage/Master of 9 (Melee Striker)

*The Archdruid* (Jemal) Half-Ogre/Half-Dragon Wearbear, 
- Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Geomancer (Melee Striker/Buffs)

*Omega* or *Something* (Shayuri) Warforged
- Warlock (Ranged Striker)

With Interest shown by:

??? (Ghostcat)
- Ranger/Swashbuckler/Dervish (Melee Striker)

??? (RangerJohn)
- Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight?

??? (Ruiktheforgotten)
- ???

I'm thinking the striker role is pretty well covered at this point  for those still mulling over concepts. We could really use some casters at this point though.


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## Shayuri (Apr 28, 2011)

Hah! Usually the position of arcanist gets snapped up so fast!

I could always make a mage if no one else wants to. I love playing epic mages...I just had this "ancient war machine" concept on the brain forever and it only works in high level/epic games.


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## Wilphe (Apr 28, 2011)

Posting to say interested if there is still room and you are interested in splitting, but not able to compete with an optimised epic character.

You might get an interesting one however.

Be looking at either:

Mashall
If that will be allowed, epic progression is here
Epic Insights: Epic Miniatures Handbook


or Fochlucan Lyrist, which is in the completes


I can make an decicated arcanist, but he/she/it will probably not be well built


Setting question:

If characters arrive here after they died, what age are they, especially if they died of old age?


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 28, 2011)

I'm thinking not many of the most legendary beings of all time, get to quietly drift off the end of their natural lives. I know at least Hanshu's second end was almost as brutal and sad as his first. Go nuts with the creative side of your demise 

@ Dharuhk Svahre - when you say + a d20 to determine the DC, are you saying its random on our end too? And I just added DCs throughout his background story. Is this ok or should I also pull the pertinent bits into a nested sblock for the knowledge checks?


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## Jemal (Apr 28, 2011)

[MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] - Aye, that is weird.. Main reason I went for the bear was b/c i figured mages would be overdone.


You know, my alternate idea for this game was a super-bard (Lyric Thaumaturge/Sublime chord/Archmage).

Hmm.. I'm gonna do some more work on it, then compare the two and see which resonates better for me... After I update my game.


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## Wilphe (Apr 28, 2011)

Vertexx69 said:


> I'm thinking not many of the most legendary beings of all time, get to quietly drift off the end of their natural lives. I know at least Hanshu's second end was almost as brutal and sad as his first. Go nuts with the creative side of your demise




Some seek to die with sword in hand, whatever they achieve is not enough, each challenge an itch that cannot be scratched. They drive ever, on and on, seeking a death that never comes til one day it does, or maybe somethin worse.

Me?

I started with nothing but the harness on my back and a sword in my hand. Death for some minor warchief's quarrel was not for me. So I went to learn the ways of men, and their weakness too, and the power that comes from true law. I told my people too, showed them that discipline and order served them better than their habitual casual petty tyranny.

I have carved an empire from the wilderness.
I have waged war with success but never wantonly.
I have made my people as great in peace as in war
I have taken cities and slain princes by my own hand, where I have had to
I have built cities where once there was nothing.
I have counted the daughters of Kings amongst the lowest of my slaves, and I do not deny that I enjoyed it.

My name shall live among the skalds and sages for evermore

And I die in my own bed, surronded by my loved ones and the trappings of sucess.

That makes me the winner boy.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 28, 2011)

Wilphe said:


> Posting to say interested if there is still room and you are interested in splitting, but not able to compete with an optimised epic character.
> 
> You might get an interesting one however.
> 
> ...




kk, lets go through this list shall we. First off, welcome aboard. Secondly, I don't know if we are splitting but it looks like we got a fair number of pcs so its a good possibility. Thirdly, All those classes look fine to me. Lastly, it is a prerequisite that your character had to have died unnaturally. Long story short, the res magic don't work on old age. You are brought back at the same age you died at.



Vertexx69 said:


> I'm thinking not many of the most legendary beings of all time, get to quietly drift off the end of their natural lives. I know at least Hanshu's second end was almost as brutal and sad as his first. Go nuts with the creative side of your demise
> 
> @ Dharuhk Svahre - when you say + a d20 to determine the DC, are you saying its random on our end too? And I just added DCs throughout his background story. Is this ok or should I also pull the pertinent bits into a nested sblock for the knowledge checks?




Yes, the DC is random on your end too. Its based on how much your character made these facts known throughout his/her life (your base DC) followed by how much facts got twisted, turned, forgotten, or immortalized since you died (the random d20). Btw, good job on the story. Gives you the feeling you are reading up on a legend. As for the mixed in DCs, it might help to define a little better what information you get from the check. When they are added in like thar I can't tell if you want them to know.


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## ghostcat (Apr 28, 2011)

Ishasha Wasmer, Human Female - Ranger(17), Swashbuckler(3), Dervish(10).

One too many rolls due to max HD at first level.  Ranger was first class, so do I dropped  the last (2).

Hit dice rolls:


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## Wilphe (Apr 28, 2011)

Ok.

What do we do about inherent bonuses to INT and skill points?
ie: When are we considered to have read tomes?


What about XP penalties for multiclasing?


Are we allowed to buy off LA as per UA?


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 28, 2011)

UA was nixed as an available source, that most likely means no LA buyoff.

@ Dharuhk Svahre - I've added a handy Lore section with various Knowledge checks, where I condensed the pertinent bits of Hanshu's background. Hope that makes it clearer


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## Albedo (Apr 29, 2011)

Alrighty, sorry it took so long, but I finally have a character concept off the ground now. 

I'm playing Dizzy May Ember, A chameleon geomancer... with some levels in other stuff. I should have the character done and up in the next day or two.

So I'm making a few assumptions about Vow of Poverty going epic so i'll just pitch where I believe it to be at 30th level.

+14 Exalted Armor
+7 Enhancement to attack and damage
Stat Enhancements 12/10/8/6/4/2
+5 Deflection to AC
+5 Resistant to all saves
+3 Natural Armor
Resist Energy 25

And I do believe I should probably roll some HPs as well.


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 29, 2011)

Wow, over 30 base classes and over 60 PrC and we get a second geomancer concept? Maybe The Archdruid's mate?

As far as skills are concerned, I think I read somewhere that if you have a racial bonus to a skill its always considered a "Class Skill". Is that in print somewhere, or was it just a house rule I picked up? (As skills are the last bit I have to finish on Hanshu. Takes a while to get though 401 points .)


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## Jemal (Apr 30, 2011)

Vertex - I believe the thing you're refering to is if a skill is on a creatures skill list it's a racial skill for them.  Don't recall racial bonuses giving class skills (Otherwise all elves would have Spot/listen, all halflings would have Hide/move silent/listen, All Half-elves would have diplomacy, etc..)

If you want to simplify things, (and your base rase is human) I'd suggest the Able Learner feat, it makes all skills cost 1 skill point regardless of cc or not.. Which means all you have to figure out at Epic is if a skill was a class skill for ANY of your classes.  If so, its 1/rank and max as a class skill=HD+3.  If not, it's 1/rank and max as a cc skill=(HD+3)/2.


And in regards to the Geomancer, I've done some work on my sublime chord, and allthough he's infinitely more complicated, he's also a LOT more fun, and I've allready got lots of backstory for him and his rod.. er, perhaps I should rephrase that.. You see, he has a magical stick that.. wait, wait..
I gave him an Intelligent Item, which is also an epic 1.6Million(Not counting intelligent cost) multi-purpose Rod.  I knew I had to use the sublime chord over the wearbear when I realized I'd had more fun making the Rod, it's purpose, its personality, and their combined backstory than I did making the bear.  Heck, I even added in Rod of Lordly might and Immovable Rod to its powers simply b/c they fit with it's Stubborn/Regal Personality! I love it when stuff like that happens 

Anyways, here's the dirty I've got so far.  It was originally copied from a lvl 20 sorc, so there may be some things I missed in the changing.  And I've yet to finish his spell selection, so it's not included (He casts as a lvl 6 bard, Full Sublime Chord, Full Wu Jen).

Gotta head to work but will post up backstory next time.

[sblock=The Messenger]
Human Bard2/Paladin2/Wu Jen3/Ultimate Magus 10/Mindbender1/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/E.Knight1/Sublime Chord 1/Magical Trickster3/Archmage2
*First 20 lvls = Bard2/Paladin2/WuJen3/Magus6/Sublime1/Mindbender1/Knight1/Lyric4
AL: CG  HT: 5'11" WT: 150 Hair: Red with Silver Highlights  Eyes: Sea-green

{91 Points *+1 for guessing near-correct on hundred headed hydra*}
STR: 10 (+0) [10 Points]
DEX: 30 (+10) [15 Points +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement +4 Sacred]
CON: 28 (+9) [17 Points +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement]
INT: 28 (+9) [18 Points +4 Inherent +6 Enhancement]
WIS: 24 (+7) [13 Points +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement]
CHA: 40 (+15) [18 Points + 7 level +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement +4 Sacred]

HP:  (3d10+11d6+16d4+270) AC: 58 (10 base +10 dex +12 Armour +6 Shield +5 Nat.Armour + 15 Deflection)
Saves: 
FORT: +45 (11 base +9 con +5 Epic +5 Resistance +15 Cha)
REF: +45 (10 base +10 dex +5 Epic +5 Resistance +15 Cha)
WILL: +53 (21 base +7 wis +5 Epic +5 Resistance +15 Cha)
Init: +10 (10 dex)

Bab: 16
Ranged Touch Attacks: +26

Skills(Total/Ranks):[273 Points, Max rank 33] 
Knowledges: Arcana(+42/33), History(+42/33), Royalty(+20/11)
Bluff(+20/5), Concentration (+10/1), Diplomacy(+48/33), Intimidate(+20/5),  Listen(+20/13), Spot(+45/33), Spellcraft(+40/28), Perform[Dance](+16/1), Perform[String](+50/33), Perform[Sing](+16/1), Profession[Astrologer](+13/6), Sense Motive(+12/5), Sleight of Hand(+18/8), Tumble(+42/12)
Skill Tricks: Point it out, Listen to this, Collector of Stories, Back on your feet, Acrobatic Backstab, Nimble Stand, Conceal Spellcasting, False Theurgy (12 pts)
*No synergy bonuses yet*

Feats: [13]  Skill Focus(Spellcraft), Spell Focus(Transmutation, Evocation), Melodic Casting, Extra Music, Maximize Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Persistant Spell, Quicken Spell, Twin Spell, Extend Spell

Epic Feats: [4]  Intensify Spell, Improved Spell Capacity(Sublime), Improved Metamagic, Epic Heighten

Bonus Feats/Class Features: 
Bardic Music(12/day), Bardic Knowledge(+21), Inspire Courage +1, Competence, Fascinate, Countersong, Captivating Melody, Bonus Spells(1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th), Spell Secret(1st & 2nd lvl Wu Jen spell known), Sonic Might(+1d6/spell lvl), Sublime Casting(Add to WuJen CL) Arcane Spellpower+4, Expanded Spell Knowledge(From Wujen to Bard: 1st,2nd,3rd; From Wujen to Sublime: 4th,5th), Augmented Casting(5th or lower, 8/day), Telepathy, Spontaneous Trickster, Metamagic Trick, Tricky Magic
High Arcana: Arcane reach(7th), Mastery of Elements(8th)

Languages: Common, Draconic, Sylvan, Celestial, Giant


Equipment: 4,300,000
Read Books: Dex+5, Cha+5,Con+5, Int+4, Wis+5(660,000)
Armour of the Celestial Battalion (616,300)
+5 Mithril Buckler of Heavy Fortification (101,015)
Cloak of Charisma+6/Resistance+5 (73,500)
Boots of Swiftness(256,000)
Circlet of Awareness[Int+6, Wis+6] (90,000)
Amulet of Supreme Health[Con+6, Immune to Disease/Poison, Wound Closure, Adaptation] (123,750)
Ring of Magic [Arcane Might, Spell Battle] (97,600)
Ring of Defense [Universal Energy Resistance, Sustenance, Freedom of Movement] (279,750)
Horizon Goggles of the Eagle(+5 spot) (11,750)
MW Lyre of Building(13,100)
Strings of Spell Storing (45,000)
Spool of Endless Rope (2,000)
Caster GloveX2 (40,000)
Portable Hole (20,000)
Hewards Handy Haversack (2,000)

Immovable Metamagic Lordly Rod "OF" [Immovable, Lordly Might + Lesser, Normal, and Greater of each: Chain, Empower, Maximize, Quicken, Enlarge, Extend, Silent](1,608,300) (+ 236,000) Intelligent)
Intelligent Item: Immovable Metamagic Lordly Rod "OF" : 
Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 19, AL: CN, Speech, Telepathy, 120' Darkvision, Blindsense, Hearing
Dedicated Purpose: Slay Dragons. Dedicated Power: Waves of Exhaustion.  
Primary Powers: Dimensional Anchor 1/day, Status at will, Haste 3/day
Lesser Powers: Intimidate(+16), Bluff(+14), Diplomacy(+18), Sense Motive(+14)
Ego: 27
Remaining: 23,935
[/sblock]
[sblock=Math Breakdowns]
Human Bard2/Paladin2/Wu Jen3/Ultimate Magus10/Sublime Chord1/Mindbender1/E.Knight1/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/Magical Trickster3/Archmage2
*First 20 lvls = Bard2/Paladin2/WuJen3/Magus6/Sublime1/Mindbender1/Knight1/Lyric4
*lvl order= Bard2/Paladin2/WuJen3/Magus3/Sublime1/Magus3/Mindbender1/Knight1/Lyric5/Magus4/Arch2/Trickster3

HD: Bard2d6+Paladin2d10+WuJen3d4+Magus10d4+Sublime1d6+Bender1d4+Knight1d10+Lyric5d6+Trickster3d6+Arch2d4


BAB: 
Bard 1, Pal 2, Wu Jen 1, Magus 3, Lyric 3, Knight 1, + 5 Epic = 16

Saves: 
Fort: Bard+0 Paladin+3 Wujen+1 Magus+2 Sublime+0 Mindbender+2 Knight+2 Lyric+1=11
Ref:  Bard+3 Paladin+0 Wujen+1 Magus+2 Sublime+0 Mindbender+0 Knight+0 Lyric+4=10
Will: Bard+3 Paladin+0 Wujen+3 Magus+5 Sublime+2 Mindbender+2 Knight+2 Lyric+4=21

Skills: 
Bard 6x2, Pal 2x2, Wu Jen 2x3, Lyric 4x5, Knight 2, Sublime 4, Bender 2, Archmage 2x2, Trickster 4x3, Magus10x2 Human&Int= 5x33 +2 Amplified Int @lvl20 = 11X2 = 273 Skill points 

CL Math: 
Bard2/Wujen3
Bard3/Wujen3(Magus1*Bard*)
Bard4/Wujen4(Magus2)
Bard5/Wujen5(Magus3)
Bard5/Sublime1/Wujen5(Sublime1)
Bard5/Sublime2/Wujen5(Magus4*Sublime*)
Bard5/Sublime3/Wujen6(Magus5)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen7(Magus6)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen8(Bender1*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen9(Lyric1*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen10(Lyric2*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen11(Lyric3*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen12(Lyric4*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen13(Lyric5*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime5/Wujen13(Magus7*Sublime*)
Bard5/Sublime6/Wujen14(Magus8)
Bard5/Sublime7/Wujen15(Magus9)
Bard5/Sublime8/Wujen16(Magus10)
Bard5/Sublime10/Wujen16(Trickster3*Sublime*)
Bard5/Sublime10/Wujen18(Archmage2*Wujen*)
CL: Bard 10, Sublime 33, Wujen 33

[/sblock]


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 30, 2011)

Wilphe said:


> Ok.
> 
> What do we do about inherent bonuses to INT and skill points?
> ie: When are we considered to have read tomes?
> ...




I do use XP penalties for multiclassing. I don't allow unearthed arcana. Inherant bonuses kick in at level 20 with one exception based off of if you put any level bonus into int. You have to have the int bonus put into it at the level the bonus would take effect. 
+1 into int = +1 Inherant at level 19
+2 into int = +1 at 18, +2 at 19
+3 into int = +1 at 17, +2 at 18, +3 at 19
+4 into int = +1 at 16, +2 at 17, +3 at 18, +4 at 19



Vertexx69 said:


> UA was nixed as an available source, that most likely means no LA buyoff.
> 
> @ Dharuhk Svahre - I've added a handy Lore section with various Knowledge checks, where I condensed the pertinent bits of Hanshu's background. Hope that makes it clearer




Thanks. A lore section will make things alot easier.

Albedo: Everything looks good. Hope to see your character up soon.

Jemal: Sounds fun. I look forward to seeing the item in action.


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## Shayuri (Apr 30, 2011)

*Name*: Omega
*Race*: Warforged
*Class/Level*: Warlock 30

*Description*: Omega stands a little taller than an average human at exactly six feet, though it walks with a slight hunch that makes it look a few inches shorter. Its head is set on a short articulated neck that angles forward, furthering the visual impression that the construct is constantly 'leaning forward.' Its arms are long, but spindly-looking. Its right arm has some kind of complicated weapon system built into it. Its left arm has a reinforced forearm brace with a round plate of metal attached. Its legs are more powerful looking, with digitigrade posture and some kind of advanced 'exoskeleton' built around the feet and ankles. 

The construct's 'skin' is silvery metal that gleams like quicksilver. Etched into it, all over, are arcane runes that gleam with gentle blue effulgence. Potent abjurations glare out of every one, creating formidable mystic defenses against harm both magic and physical. There are plates and portions which look removable that radiate magic and could perhaps be adapted to serve as magical items for other creatures. It has no mouth, but can speak in a hollow, inflectionless voice. The only facial 'feature' it has are the red eyes that burn out of its angular head.

[sblock=Combat Ministats]AC 44, FF 37, Tou 23 (Incorp Touch 33)
Fort: +29, Ref +31, Will +30 (+13 luck bonus to 1)
DR 9/cold iron
SR 40
Resistance: Fire 10, Cold 10, Acid 30
Fast Healing 3 (Boost to 25 for 5min/day)
HP: 397
Base Atk: +32 rngd tch, 16d6 dmg, 120' rng, x2 on Full Attack
Immunities: Immune to poison, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain, starvation, thirst, sleep, mind-affecting effects, detection via divinations, grapples, effects that slow or immobilize, critical hits, sneak attacks, surprise, any 'normal' projectile attack (as per arrow deflection).

Special Abilities: Constant True Seeing, Blindsight 60', Recognizes arcane and divine spellcasters on sight and can determine highest spell level they can cast, does not incur AoO due to spellcasting in threatened spaces.[/sblock]

[sblock=Game Stats]Strength (STR) 10
Dexterity (DEX) 36 (18 + 7 level + 5 inherent + 6 enh)
Constitution (CON) 30 (20 +4 inh + 6 enh)
Intelligence (INT) 10
Wisdom (WIS) 18 (16 - 2 race = +4 inherent)
Charisma (CHA) 28 (18 -2 race + 4 inherent + 8 enh)

Alignment: Neutral
AC: 44 (10 +6 dex +10 armor +6 shield +5 deflection, +5 natural +2 insight), Flatfoot 37, Touch 23)
Hit Points: 397
Movement: 30' (30' flight, Good)

Init: +13
Base Attack Bonus: +20/+15/+10
Melee Attack: +20/+15/+10
Ranged Attack: +36
Fort: +29 (+6 base +8 resist +10 Con + 5 epic +1 competence)
Reflex: +35 (+6 base +8 resist +13 dex + 5 epic +2 insight + 1 competence)
Will: +30 (+12 base +8 resist + 4 Wis + 5 epic + 1 competence)

Race Abilities
Construct type, living subtype
Immune to poison, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain. 
Cannot heal damage naturally. 
Cannot be healed by Cure spells 
Stasis at 0 through -10 HP. 
Does not eat, sleep, or breathe. 
Composite plating: +2 armor bonus, as light armor. 
Light Fortification, 25% chance to avoid critical hits/sneak attacks. 
Natural weapon, one slam attack for 1d4+Str.

Class Abilities:
Eldritch Blast 16d6
Detect Magic at will
DR 9/cold iron
Deceieve Item (take 10 on UMD checks, even under stress)
Fiendish Resilience 25, 5 minutes, 1/day
Energy Resistance 10: Fire and Cold
Imbue Item

Skills:	8 + 58
Concentration +20 (10 ranks + 10 Con)
Knowledge (The Planes) +24 (24 ranks + 0 Int)
Spellcraft +24 (24 ranks + 0 Int)
Use Magic Item +17 (8 ranks + 9 cha)

Spot +12
Listen +12
Sense Motive +12

Feats
1 Mithril Body
3 ?
6 Extra Invocation: Dark One's Luck
9 Extra Invocation: Void Sense
12 Improved Fortification (no crits)
15 Craft Contingent Spells
18 Thick Skinned (+2 DR/cold iron)

21 Eldritch Sculptor
23 
24 Epic Fiendish Resilience
26 Extra Invocation: Dark Foresight
27 Paragon Visionary
29 Improved Combat Casting
30 Fast Healing

Languages - Common

Invocations (All Eldritch Blast effects are DC 28 to resist, where applicable)
Least
- Eldritch Spear (500' range)
- Devil's Sight (see in magical darkness)
- See the Unseen (See invisible/Darkvision 60')
- Dark One's Luck (+Cha mod to one save)

Lesser
- Eldritch Chain (120' range, 60' secondary blast, 6 secondary blasts)
- Fell Flight (fly = ground speed, good maneuverability)
- Flee the Scene (100' range dimension door that leaves illusion of self behind)
- Voidsense (60' blindsight)

Greater
- Eldritch Cone (120' range)
- Devour Magic (+20 greater dispel on touch)
- Vitriolic Blast (+2d6 acid for 4 turns)

Dark
- Dark Foresight (As Foresight spell, plus can communicate telepathically with recipient within 100')
- Retributive Invisibility (As greater invis, explodes for 4d6 sonic if dispelled)
- Eldritch Doom (40' radius)
- Path of Shadows (As Shadow Walk, heals 1 day per hour.)

Equipment 
Cash: 1620gp

Armor
- +5 Mithril Body, +10 AC, Max Dex +6, ACP 0, 166k
-- Ghost Touch +3
-- Death Ward +1
-- Nimbleness +1
-- Greater Acid Resistance +66k

Repulsor Plate, +6 AC, ACP 0, 1.21mil
- +5 Mithril Buckler
-- Infinite Deflection +6

Weapons
Slam, +20 to hit, 1d4 dmg
Eldritch Blast, +36 ranged touch, 16d6 dmg, 2 atks on full action

Gear
Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance, .29mil
Vest of Epic Resistance +8, .64mil
Headpiece of Epic Charisma +8, .64mil
Boots of Swiftness, .256mil
Third Eye of Concealment, 120,000
Belt of Constitution +6, 36,000
Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, 30,000
Ring of Projected Force, 150,000
- Telekinesis, 75,000
- Protection +5, 50,000
- 50% Combo charge, 25,000
Ring of Implosive Fields, 158,280
- Spell Turning, 98,280
- Freedom of Movement, 40,000
- 50% Combo charge, 20,000
Essence of Offense and Defense, 77,000
- Natural Armor +5, 50,000
- Greater Chauseble of Fell Power, 18,000
- 50% Combo charge, 9,000
Rod of Mystic Precision, 12,000

Wands
Wand of Ray Deflection 50/50 (CL 7), 21,000
Wand of Targeting Ray 50/50 (CL 15), 11,250

Contingent Spells 13350, 534xp
When I am in the area of effect of a Disjunction: Antimagic Field (3300, 132xp)
When I am subject to a spell causing instant death that penetrates all other defenses: Death Ward (1400, 112xp)
When I am subject to a negative energy spell or effect that reduces ability scores and penetrates all other defenses: Death Ward (1400, 112xp)
When I am subject to Imprisonment that penetrates all other defenses: Freedom (7650, 612xp)

Tomes: 467,500
+4 Dex, 110,000
+4 Con, 110,000
+4 Wis, 110,000
+5 Cha, 137,500[/sblock]

Knowledge Checks:

[sblock=DC 10+19 (arcana)] Though resembling a small golem in some respects, Omega displays intelligence and cunning far beyond that of a normal 'mindless' construct.[/sblock]

[sblock=DC 15+20 (arcana)] The intricacy and power of the runes and layered magical defenses and attacks represents advanced techniques that have been lost for thousands of years. Even if those techniques were recovered though, the expense of creating something like this could bankrupt an entire kingdom.[/sblock]

[sblock=DC 20+3 (arcana)] The specific runes and sigils in the construct's hide are of a particular alphabet used almost exclusively by an ancient mageocratic country called Predas. The nation fell to the superior military might of Targas Empire during their third, and last, campaign to extend their borders by warfare. [/sblock]

[sblock=DC 25+19 (arcana)] Records from the Targas Empire during its decline made mention of a 'demon of metal and fury' attacking their border outposts and eventually even razing villages. As this destructive force slowly, but relentlessly, pierced farther into the Empire they were obliged to commit ever larger forces to try to stop it. This weakened their borders sufficiently that barbarian invaders finished what this 'demon' began, and the Empire slowly collapsed over the course of a hundred years.[/sblock]

[sblock=DC 30+4 (arcana)] The demon was said to fight craftily, engaging from afar to pick off commanders and mages (whom it appeared to be able to discern regardless of disguise) before appearing in the midst of the army, blasting indiscriminately with rapid-firing magical bolts that could dissolve flesh or 'devour souls.' Its hide was unnaturally tough, and it rapidly self-repaired what little damage could be done to it. All accounts agree on one element; the beast's furious speed, both of attack and of movement.[/sblock]

[sblock=DC 40+8 (arcana)] The so-called 'demon of Predas' was finally destroyed as it assaulted the capital city of the Empire in an apparent attempt to kill the Emperor himself. One of the Emperor's bodyguards knew enough magic to read a scroll, but evidently not enough to merit assassination by sniping. As the demon murdered the honor guard, and the few mages' still alive watched their spells bounce harmlessly off of its hide and shield, this guard read a scroll of Antimagic, surrounding himself in a globe of negation. He then jumped the monster from behind and latched on as tightly as he could. To his astonishment, he discovered the creature was not particularly strong, and he had no trouble holding off its attempts to dislodge him. In the absence of the magic it depended on, the remaining guard had much less trouble defeating its defenses and finally managed to beat it until it stopped repairing itself. Its inert body was then made into a statue. By that time however, the disastrous toll it had taken on the already overextended Empire made its eventual dissolution assured.[/sblock]

[sblock=A Little History]3000 years ago, The Targas Empire was the force that unified most of the disparate tribes, petty kingdoms and far flung nations of the continent for nearly two thousand years. It is because of the Targas that there can now be said to be a 'common' language, and a common system of measuring weights for coin and other materials. Though it didn't fall in one night, when it fell it took a great deal with it; ushering in a 500 year dark age of ignorance and degeneration that is only now beginning to lift. 

The Targas were originally primitive tribal humans who, unusually for such people, had all pledged to serve one man who's name was...shockingly...Targas. The individual became an office when he died, with warriors battling for the honor and privilege of becoming the next Targas. In time the entire people took that name for their ethnicity as well. Because the tribes acknowledge a single leader, they could more easily coordinate actions. Disputes could be arbitrated, rather than leading to bloodshed. As the tribes prospered, they began to need more land and more food. The obvious solution was to expand. This happened again, in three intervals. By the end of the third, the Empire was so stretched that its garrisons were needed on all frontiers to quell unrest. When trouble struck at home, requiring troops to be diverted...the subsequent weakening of the borders started a chain reaction that eventually led to the destruction of the Empire. The last Emperor is recorded as being slain in the Imperial Year 1997, and while there was squabbling for the throne afterwards, no one ever convincingly managed to claim it.  Even so, it was 500 years later before most scholars agree that the Empire was truly dead. [/sblock]


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Apr 30, 2011)

Excellent work there Shayuri. I enjoyed the read. 

You only need 2 more small things. First off, you need to add the random d20 modifer to all of your knowledge DCs, in addition you need to pick when Omega's life span took place between years 1-10,000. This will allow other characters who come after you to be able to know your story.

If you felt like it you could add dates to any events that occur in the backstory as well, but it is not required.


----------



## Albedo (Apr 30, 2011)

Dizzy May Ember, The Lady of Dismay
[sblock]

Race: Human, Height: 5'11", Weight: 160lbs, Hair: Long Blonde, Eyes: One Green, One Blue, Skin: White, Lived between the years 234 and 263

10 Chameleon, 3 Champion of Gwynharwyf, 9 Geomancer, 1 Cleric, 1 Barbarian, 1 Contemplative, 3 Wizard, 1 Fighter, 1 Holy Liberater

Level Order: 1 Barbarian, 3 Wizard, 1 Fighter, 1 Cleric, 3 Chameleon, 3 Champion of Gwynharwyf, 8 Geomancer, 1 Contemplative, 2 Geomancer, 7 Chameleon

Str: 56/+23 (11 Base + 5 Inherant + 16 Enhancement + 6 Chameleon + 8 Size + 2 Graft + 4 Morale + 4 Sacred)
Dex: 28/+9 (11 Base + 5 Inherant + 6 Enhancement + 2 Size + 2 Graft + 4 Sacred + 4 Morale - 6 Iron Body)
Con: 42/+16 (15 Base + 5 Inherant + 4 Size + 8 Enhancement + 2 Graft + 4 Morale + 4 Sacred)
Int: 41/+15 (18 Base + 5 Inherant + 12 Enhancement + 6 Chameleon)
Wis: 47/+18 (17 Base + 5 Inherant + 8 Enhancement + 17 Insight)
Cha: 54/+22 (18 Base + 5 Inherant + 10 Enhancement + 6 Chameleon + 7 Level + 4 Profane + 4 Sacred)


AC: 71 = 10 Base + 14 Armor + 10 Natural Armor + 22 Deflection + 9 Dex + 2 Insight + 3 Profane + 1 Haste

Touch AC: 47 = 10 Base + 22 Deflection + 9 Dex + 2 Insight + 3 Profane + 1 Haste

Without Dex AC: 62 = 10 Base + 14 Armor + 10 Natural Armor + 22 Deflection + 2 Insight + 3 Profane + 1 Haste
Touch AC without Dex: 38 = 10 Base + 22 Deflection + 2 Insight + 3 Profane + 1 Haste

Fort: +81 = 17 Base + 14 Con + 8 Ability Focus + 6 resistance + 5 Morale + 22 Divine Grace + 5 Epic + 4 Sacred

Ref: +55 = 5 Base + 8 Dex + 6 Resistance + 5 Morale + 22 Divine Grace + 5 Epic + 4 Sacred

Will: +83 = 13 Base + 18 Will + 8 Ability Focus + 6 Resistance + 5 Morale + 22 Divine Grace + 5 Epic + 4 Sacred

BAB: +14 
HP: 603
Initiative: +26 = 9 Dex + 4 Graft + 5 Nerveskitter + 4 Signs + 4 Improved Initiative
Speed: 75 = 30ft base + 10ft Barbarian + 5ft Geomancer + 30ft Haste
Fly Speed: 120 (Perfect) = 60ft Base + 30ft Cloud Wings + 30ft Haste
Languages: Common, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Sylven


Feats: Able Learner (1st), Extend Spell (Human), Scribe Scroll (Wizard), Sacred Vow (3rd), Knight of the Stars (6th), Nymph's Kiss (6th), Improved Initiative (Fighter), Spell Mastery (Chameleon), Persistant Spell (9th), Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell) (12th), Extra Turning (15th), Divine Might (18th), Sanctify Weapon (20th), Vow of Poverty (21st), Nymphs Kiss (22nd), Righteous Wrath (24th), Improved Spell Capacity (Chameleon)(24th), Touch of Golden Ice (26th), Improved Spell Capacity (Chameleon)(27th), Gift of Grace (28th), Ranged Smite Evil (30th), Improved Spell Capacity (Chameleon)(30th), 


Special Abilities: Rage, Fast movement, Summon Familiar, Domains (Plant, Fire, Earth) Rebuke Undead 29/day(Cleric), Rebuke Plants 29/day, Rebuke Fire Elementals 29/day, Rebuke Air Elementals 29/day, Aptitude Focus 3/day (+4), Bonus Feat, Mimic Class Feature 3/day, Ability Boon +6, Double Aptitude, Rapid Refocus, Aura of Good, Smite Evil 2/day, Detect Evil, Divine Grace, Furious Casting, Geomancer Drifts (Cat's Tail, Touch Wilt's Flowers, Swift as an Elk, Eyes of the Owl, Eyes of the Eagle, Lion Claws, Grab Like Bear, Trip Like Wolf, Move Like Cheetah, Tremorsense of Earthworm), Leyline (Forest/+3), Spell Versitility 9, Bonus Domain, Divine Health


Grafts: Flexible Spine, Silthilar Bones, Silthilar Muscles, Silthilar Tendons, Healing Blood


Skills: 313
Knowledge Religion: 33/+52
Knowledge Planes: 33/+48
Knowledge Arcana: 6/+25
Knowledge History: 1/+16
Spellcraft: 4/+25
Concentration: 33/+49
Sense Motive: 33/+51
Survival: 18/+346Listen: 33/+51
Intimidate: 33/+55
Diplomacy: 33/+57
Spot: 16/+35
Knowledge Nature: 6/+25
Tumble: 8/+17
Disuise 8/+30
Hide: 0/+13


Spells:
Chameleon (Arcane/Caster Level 34) Spells Known: Greater Reduce Person, Inner Beauty, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Greater Anticipate Teleport, Wings of Cover, Rope Trick, Greater Dimension Jumper, Foresight, Investiture of the Horned Devil, Energy Immunity, Investiture of the Pit Fiend, Nerveskitter, Greater Arcane Sight, Misdirection, Detect Scrying
0 (4): Mage Hand x4
1 (8): Nerveskitter x8
2 (8): Wings of Cover x7, Misdirection
3 (8): Wings of Cover x5, Extended Rope Trick x3
4 (7): Inner Beauty, Ruin Delver's Fortune x5, Detect Scrying
5 (6): Extended Ruin Delver's Fortune x6
6 (4): Greater Anticipate Teleport, Extended Greater Reduce Person x3
7 (4): Energy Immunity x4 
8 (3): Investiture of the Horned Devil, Greater Arcane Sight, Extended Energy Immunity
9 (3): Foresight, Greater Dimension Jumper, Investiture of the Pit Fiend


Chameleon (Divine/Caster Level 34)
0 (4): Create Water x4
1 (9): Divine Favor x3
2 (9): Cloud Wings, Extended Conviction, Extend Comprehend Languages x3, Extended Divine Favor x2, Extended Ebon Eyes
3 (8): Blindsight x5, Extended Undetectable Alignment, Speak with Dead, Extended Speak with Plants
4 (8): Investiture of the Orthon, Non-Detection, Tongues, Greater Wing's of Air, Divine Power x4
5 (7): Righteous Might, Owls Insight, Extended Divine Power x3, Triadspell (Extended Divine Favor), Triadspell (Extended Conviction), 
6 (5): Bite of the Werebear, Sirine's Grace, Superior Resistance, Spell Resistance, Triad Spell (Extended Ebon Eyes)
7 (4): Aura of Vitality, Investiture of the Ice Devil, Persistant Crabwalk, Persistant Investiture of the Spined Devil
8 (4): Persistant Haste Swift, Persistant Investiture of the Chain Devil, Persistant Lion's Charge, Holy Transformation
9 (4): Investiture of the Hellfire Engine, Persistant Investiture of the Steel Devil, Persistant Devil's Ego, Persistant Charge of the Triceratops


Champion of Gwynharwyf (Caster Level 7)
1 (7): Divine Favor x3, Divine Sacrifice x4
2 (6): Shield Other x2, Extended Divine Favor x2, Extended Divine Sacrifice
3 (5): Blessed Sight, Magic Circle Against Evil x2, Prayer x2
4 (4): Restoration, Glory of the Martyr, Extended Magic Circle Against Evil, Extended Prayer


Cleric (Caster Level 1)
0 (3): Create Water x3
1 (6+1): Signs x6, (Entangle)

Wizard (Caster Level 3)
0 (4): Message x4
1 (7): Wings of Cover x7
2 (6): Wings of Cover x6


Daily Buff Spells: Misdirection, Persistant Inner Beauty, Detect Scrying, Greater Anticipate Teleport, Extended Greater Reduce Person x3, Enegy Immunity x5 (all), Persistant Investiture of the Horned Devil, Persistant Greater Arcane Sight, Persistant Foresight, Persistant Greater Dimension Jumper, Persistant Investiture of the Pit Fiend, Sign, Cloud Wings, Extended Conviction x3, Extend Comprehend Languages x3, Extended Ebon Eyes x3, Extended Undetectable Alignment, Persistant Investiture of the Orthon, Non-Detection, Tongues, Persistant Greater Wing's of Air, Persistant Righteous Might, Persistant Owl's Insight, Persistant Bite of the Werebear, Persistant Siren's Grace, Superior Resistance, Persistant Auro of Vitality, Persistant Investiture of the Ice Devil, Persistant Crabwalk, Persistant Investiture of the Spined Devil, Persistant Swift Haste, Persistant Investiture of the Chain Devil, Persistant Lion's Charge, Persistant Holy Transformation, Persistant Invesiture of the Hellfire Engine, Persistant Investiture of the Steel Devil, Persistant Devil's Ego, Persistant Charge of the Triceratops, Persistant Spell Resistance 

Attack:
Gore: *Attack+55* = +14 BAB + 5 Epic BAB + 21 Str + 7 Enhancement + 1 Haste + 3 Profane + 4 Ability Focus/*Damage 1d8+41+1d6 Cold* = +34 Str + 7 Enhancement + 1d6 Cold


Full Attack: 
Gore (Primary) x2: *Attack+55* = +14 BAB + 5 Epic BAB + 21 Str + 7 Enhancement + 1 Haste + 3 Profane + 4 Ability Focus/*Damage 1d8+45+1d6 Cold* = +34 Str + 7 Enhancement + 4 Ability Focus + 1d6 Cold
Claws x2: *Attack +56 *= +20 BAB + 5 Epic BAB - 5 Secondary + 21 Str + 7 Enhancement + 1 Haste + 3 Profane + 4 Ability Focus/*Damage 2d6+22+1d6 Cold* = +11 Str + 7 Enhancement + 4 Ability Focus + 1d6 Cold
Wings: *Attack +56* = +20 BAB + 5 Epic BAB - 5 Secondary + 21 Str + 7 Enhancement + 1 Haste + 3 Profane + 4 Ability Focus/*Damage 2d6+22+1d6 Cold* = +11 Str + 7 Enhancement + 4 Ability Focus + 1d6 Cold
Bite: *Attack +54* = +14 BAB + 5 Epic BAB - 2 Secondary + 21 Str + 7 Enhancement + 1 Haste + 3 Profane + 4 Ability Focus /*Damage 2d8+22+1d6 Cold* = +11 Str + 7 Enhancement + 4 Ability Focus + 1d6 Cold 

Description: The Lady of Dismay has become warped and disfigured after her descent into hell. Her body holds some likeness to a hound archon, but the comparison can easily be missed by the horn sticking out of her head, her demonic wings and claws, her bear-like mouth, lions feet, and cat's tail. Her skin is dark and metallic as if made of cold-iron, and her eyes and mouth emit the eerie glow of hellfire. She wears the same tattered robes she ventured into hell with, all color blackened away as it was near burnt to a crisp from her ordeals. Her only other possesion being a pouch attached to her hip containing components that allow her to use her magical powers. [/sblock]

Backstory:
[sblock]
The tale of the Lady of Dismay is one of trajedy. The forest her clan had lived in for as long as their history draws back had over the last hundred years had become filled with wandering devils. They had long since dedicated themselves to the eradication of the evil invaders, with their clan producing a long line of devil hunters. Dizzy's mother was a story teller, charged with making sure the children of the clan knew their history and role to play in protecting the forest. One night however, she became possessed and started slaughtering the village's children. Dizzy watched as her mother was cut down, as the twisted fiend controlling her popped out and laughed as it scurried into the woods. It was on this day Dizzy's fate as Devil hunter was sealed.
When she was 16, the age of adulthood in her clan, she went with her father on her first hunt. She came back wounded, but in high spirirts as they had brough back the heads of a dozen vile creatures. Her skills continued to develop until she became one of the best hunters in the whole clan. When she was 19, her hunting party stumbled on an excavation site being run by devils and slaves. They launched an attack on the site, and her entire hunting party was slain including her father. However the site was destroyed and all the devils had been slain or run off. She found what looked like a piece to a strange artifact at the site and decided that it must be what the devils were after. She dropped it off at a town bordering the edge of the forest, leaving it with the local church to protect. As she travelled home, she ran into a devious looking sorcerer. The man ranted and raved about how she years of hard work and planning. She knew the man to be dangerous so she drew her sword but it was far too late. With a flick of his hand she lost her ability to move. Laughing maniacally, he introduced himself as Kainin, and proceded to cast a dark and evil incantation on her. Telling her death was too quick, he cursed her and then let her go. 

Upon returning to her clan's village, she was greeted by a sight of destruction and agony. The village in ruins, all of her clan slaughtered on the ground. She knew it had to be that damned sorcerer's doing. She buried all of her fallen clan members in their ancestral burial grounds and left the forest in search of Kainin. The devils had spread to the entire area, making her find alot of work as a devil hunter over the next few years. But she began noticing an odd feeling whenever she slayed one. Unsure of what was happening to her, she sought out divine assistance from a church. At first she was turned away, the church members being suspicious of her for some reason. After explaining her plight, they revealed to her that she had a distinctly evil aura around her. They attempted to break the curse that Kainin had set upon her, but his magic was too powerful. Dizzy kept wandering, searching for Devil's to kill, searching for Kainin so she could extract her revenge, searching for a cure for the curse that was afflicting her. It was not long before she noticed the taint of her curse was spreading into her gear. Her sword and armor gained voices, whispering poison into her ear. She resisted them. They instead began to reach out to the people around her, corrupting them into performing evil acts. She would then be accused of working with devils and chased out of town. She knew it was time to get rid of her gear, passed down to her from her father as it was passed down to him for generations. She returned home to lay the items to rest in her clan's burial grounds. She returned a week later to destroy the her familys undead bodies that were ressurected by them.

The act of slaughtering her family was too much for Dizzy, and she finally gave up on life. Screaming to the heaven's, she demanded to know what to do. She was shocked to recieve a response. Out of the forest emerged a whirlwind of glittering sand. Dizzy watched in awe as the sand reformed itself into an elf-like being. The stories her mother had taught her as a child came to mind as Dizzy finally realized who it was that had come calling. Gwynharwyf herself was standing before Dizzy, and the prescense of such a divine entity left Dizzy absent of words. Gwynharwyf informed Dizzy that a great evil was sweeping the lands. And that Dizzy's fate had wound up entwined with that evil. Long ago a wizard with an obssessive quest for knowledge had wanted access to the planes of the gods themselves. When denied, he began constuction of a great portal that could force open any realm. When the gods discovered this plot, they punished the wizard, but found that whatever he had used to overcome the planar protections of the gods made the gate indusctructable. So they dismantled it, and scattered the pieces over the world. The evil sorcerer Kainin was attempting to reconstruct that gate for his master Mephistopheles, ruler of the 8th layer of hell. With that gate they could lay siege to any plane, putting the balance of the world at risk. As for Dizzy's involvement, she had unknowingly prevent Kainin from getting one of the pieces of the gate. The curse placed on Dizzy was designed to corrupt her with the essence of every devil she cut down. Such corruption would eventually consume her and make her a new powerful pawn for the dark sorcerer. However the divine Eladrin offered Dizzy assistance in order to harness the dark powers attempting to consume her soul, and use them to defeat the very man who had placed them upon her to begin with. 

Dizzy renewed her quest, backed by the divine power of Gwynharwyf herself. Channeling her dark curse, she found new and powerful ways to employ it to her advantage. Yet, the more powerful she became, the more powerful devils she began to slay, the more powerful devils, the stronger the curse, and the dark manifestations began to appear on her body. Ignoring her deteriorating state, she hunted after Kainin and attempted to prevent him from getting his hands on all the gate pieces. After years of struggling however, Dizzy failed in her quest. The dark spellcaster successfuly collected all the pieces and fled into the depths of hell. Informed by Gwynharwyf, she knew she had to follow. Followers of Gwynharwyf had secured a passageway to the first layer of hell for Dizzy, and she descended into its depths without a second thought. Fighting her way through each layer of hell, she finally made her way down to 8th layer where the portal was being assembled. She finally located Kainin, but was told if she killed him the curse would never go away. The portal was now active and a hoard of devils were travelling to the material plane. She had to act fast. She defeated him and tried to force him to release the curse, but he ended up being slain by an agent of his master Mephistopheles. In the Devil's hand was a soulstone connect to the bargain Mephestopheles had made with Kainin, glowing with the soul of the only man that could save Dizzy. She fought with the beast, but when he was about to lose he used Kainin's soulstone as a spell component in an attempt to empower a spell strong enough to defeat Dizzy. even though the spell failed to stop her, the true damage was done, as the soul of the only person who could break the curse was now forever destroyed. She cut the Devil's head off and proceeded to destroy the magical power sources to the portal. Then she used the divine energy implanted into her by Gwynharwyf to tranport the gate deep into the heart of Celestia where the dvils could not reach it again. The unstable portal itself was still not completely closed after its source was cut off, and Dizzy managed to leap through the rift in order to escape back to the material plane. 

Dizzy was expecting to face the devil horde that had crossed through the portal when she reached the other side. She was instead greeted by an army of paladins who had arrived to fight the devils. Corpses of slain fiends littered the earth as the paladins finished off the last of the invaders. Turning to Dizzy, they began to attack her as well. She tried to tell them to stop, but soon realized that the number of Devil's she had butchered on her way though hell had completely transformed her into an abomination of hell. They would not leave her be. Knowing she could not bring herself to attack the forces of good, she was forced to surrender to the paladins. Exhaustion from all the ordeals she was forced to face finally caught up with her as they decided on a scentence of death. The last thought going through her head was that she could finally rest as they chopped it off. [/sblock]

Knowledge Checks:
[sblock]
Knowledge History DC 10/22: The Lady of Dismay was a cursed woman who roamed around the world searching for a cure, never to find peace. Her place in history is that of a joke or cruel nursery rhyme.

Knowledge History/Planes DC 20/26: While her goals were never accomplished in life, she bears the honer of being one of the few mortals who braved the fires of hell all the way down to level 8 and successfully returned, though where she ended up after is a mystery.

Knowledge History/Religion DC 30/50: She comes from a long line of Devil hunters, and was known throughout the land for her skill in such regards. 

Knowledge Arcana DC 35/52: Her curse was consumed the essence of all the Devils she slayed and used that power to corrupt her from the inside. The goal of such a curse is to make her more and more tainted as she gets more and more powerful until she finally turns to the side of darkness as an extremely powerful new pawn. She was cursed by a powerful dark sorcerer named Kainin who was a servant of Mephistopheles, the Lord of the 8th layer of Hell. 

Knowledge Religion DC 35/42: The Lady of Dismay was doomed to be overcome by her curse. It was only through intervention by Gwynharwyf that she was able to overcome the darkness inside of her and harness it to give her the strength to continue fighting. 

Knowledge Religion/Planes DC 40/52: While her life goal was to break her curse, The Lady of Dismay's true purpose for venturing into hell was to prevent Mephistopheles from using an artifact gate to invade the material plane. She actually accomplished this goal, thwarting the Devil Lord's plan and saving the material plane.

Knowledge History DC 40/53: Her curse had turned her body into a horrific abomination, and when she returned to the material plane she was captured and executed by an army of paladins.
[/sblock]


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## Vertexx69 (Apr 30, 2011)

I was under the impression that profane and sacred bonuses were mutually exclusive? By having a good alignment you lose access to any spells with the evil descriptor regardless of class features?

Ah ha found it under cleric:

_*Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells:* A cleric can’t cast spells
of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). For
example, a good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) cannot cast
evil spells. Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated
by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell
descriptions (see Chapter 11: Spells)._ ~ PHB pg 33


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## Albedo (May 1, 2011)

Thats a clerical casting rule, as well as druid I believe. I cast using Chameleon, who can cast any divine spells. Origionally I was going to be an evil character using an ur-priest to cast good spells, but I thought this way was more interesting (and party friendly).

Anyways, I added my character backstory. Now all I need are my knowledge checks and description and I'll finally be done.


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## Jemal (May 1, 2011)

OK, Update time!
Still no Spellblock yet, will get it in next update.
[sblock=Kayla Elzmyr, the Messenger of the Song]
Human Bard2/Paladin2/Wu Jen3/Ultimate Magus 10/Mindbender1/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/E.Knight1/Sublime Chord 1/Magical Trickster3/Archmage2
*First 20 lvls = Bard2/Paladin2/WuJen3/Magus6/Sublime1/Mindbender1/Knight1/Lyric4
AL: CG  HT: 5'11" WT: 150 Hair: Red with Silver Highlights  Eyes: Sea-green

{91 Points *+1 for guessing near-correct on hundred headed hydra*}
STR: 10 (+0) [10 Points]
DEX: 30 (+10) [15 Points +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement +4 Sacred]
CON: 28 (+9) [17 Points +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement]
INT: 28 (+9) [18 Points +4 Inherent +6 Enhancement]
WIS: 24 (+7) [13 Points +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement]
CHA: 40 (+15) [18 Points + 7 level +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement +4 Sacred]

HP:  (3d10+11d6+16d4+270) AC: 58 (10 base +10 dex +12 Armour +6 Shield +5 Nat.Armour + 15 Deflection)
Saves: 
FORT: +45 (11 base +9 con +5 Epic +5 Resistance +15 Cha)
REF: +45 (10 base +10 dex +5 Epic +5 Resistance +15 Cha)
WILL: +53 (21 base +7 wis +5 Epic +5 Resistance +15 Cha)
Init: +10 (10 dex)

Bab: 16
Ranged Touch Attacks: +26

Skills(Total/Ranks):[291 Points, Max rank 33] 
Knowledges: Arcana(+47/33), History(+47/33), Royalty(+20/6), Other(+14/0)
Bluff(+20/5), Concentration (+10/1), Diplomacy(+48/33), Hide(+20/5), Intimidate(+20/5),  Listen(+20/13), Move Silent(+20/5), Perform[Dance](+20/5), Perform[String](+22/5), Perform[Sing](+48/33), Profession[Astrologer](+13/6), Sense Motive(+12/5), Sleight of Hand(+20/10), Spellcraft(+40/28), Spot(+50/33), Tumble(+42/12) *3 unspent*
Skill Tricks: Point it out, Listen to this, Collector of Stories, Back on your feet, Acrobatic Backstab, Nimble Stand, Conceal Spellcasting, False Theurgy (12 pts)
*No synergy bonuses yet*

Feats: [13]  Skill Focus(Spellcraft), Spell Focus(Transmutation, Evocation), Melodic Casting, Extra Music, Maximize Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Persistant Spell, Quicken Spell, Twin Spell, Extend Spell

Epic Feats: [4]  Intensify Spell, Improved Spell Capacity(Sublime), Improved Metamagic, Epic Heighten

Bonus Feats/Class Features: 
Bardic Music(12/day), Bardic Knowledge(+26), Inspire Courage +1, Competence, Fascinate, Countersong, Captivating Melody, Bonus Spells(1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th), Spell Secret(1st & 2nd lvl Wu Jen spell known), Sonic Might(+1d6/spell lvl), Sublime Casting(Add to WuJen CL) Arcane Spellpower+4, Expanded Spell Knowledge(From Wujen to Bard: 1st,2nd,3rd; From Wujen to Sublime: 4th,5th), Augmented Casting(5th or lower, 8/day), Telepathy, Spontaneous Trickster, Metamagic Trick, Tricky Magic
High Arcana: Arcane reach(7th), Mastery of Elements(8th)

Languages: Common, Draconic, Sylvan, Celestial, Giant

Equipment: 4,300,000
Armour of the Celestial Battalion (616,300)
+5 Mithril Buckler of Heavy Fortification (101,015)
Cloak of Charisma+6/Resistance+5 (73,500)
Boots of Swiftness(256,000)
Circlet of Awareness[Int+6, Wis+6] (90,000)
Amulet of Supreme Health[Con+6, Immune to Disease/Poison, Wound Closure, Adaptation] (123,750)
Ring of Magic [Arcane Might, Spell Battle] (97,600)
Ring of Defense [Universal Energy Resistance, Sustenance, Freedom of Movement] (279,750)
Robes of Elvenkind [+5Hide/Move Silent] (6,250)
Horizon Goggles of Draconic Vision(+10 spot, Lowlight, 60'Darkvision) (58,000)
MW Lyre of Building(13,100)
Spool of Endless Rope (1,400)
Caster Glove (20,000) *Holds Rod*
Glove of Storing (10,000) *Holds Book*
Portable Hole (20,000)
Hewards Handy Haversack (2,000)

Songbook of the Ages [Boccobs Blessed Book, Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance](24,500)
*This book also gave the inherent bonuses Dex+5, Cha+5, Con+5, Wis+5, Int+4.  I'm not increasing the cost for this b/c they are one use and it's a flavour thing, having zero in-game impact*(660,000)

Immovable Metamagic Lordly Rod "OF" [Immovable, Lordly Might + Lesser, Normal, and Greater of each: Chain, Empower, Maximize, Quicken, Enlarge, Extend, Silent](1,608,300) (+ 236,000) Intelligent)
Intelligent Item: Immovable Metamagic Lordly Rod "OF" : 
Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 19, AL: CN, Speech, Telepathy, 120' Darkvision, Blindsense, Hearing
Dedicated Purpose: Defeat/slay Dragons. Dedicated Power: Waves of Exhaustion.  
Primary Powers: Dimensional Anchor 1/day, Status at will, Haste 3/day
Lesser Powers: Intimidate(+16), Bluff(+14), Diplomacy(+18), Sense Motive(+14)
Ego: 27

Remaining: 2535[/sblock]

[sblock=MATH Breakdown]
Human Bard2/Paladin2/Wu Jen3/Ultimate Magus10/Sublime Chord1/Mindbender1/E.Knight1/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/Magical Trickster3/Archmage2
*First 20 lvls = Bard2/Paladin2/WuJen3/Magus6/Sublime1/Mindbender1/Knight1/Lyric4
*lvl order= Bard2/Paladin2/WuJen3/Magus3/Sublime1/Magus3/Mindbender1/Knight1/Lyric5/Magus4/Arch2/Trickster3

HD: Bard2d6+Paladin2d10+WuJen3d4+Magus10d4+Sublime1d6+Bender1d4+Knight1d10+Lyric5d6+Trickster3d6+Arch2d4

BAB: 
Bard 1, Pal 2, Wu Jen 1, Magus 3, Lyric 3, Knight 1, + 5 Epic = 16

Saves: 
Fort: Bard+0 Paladin+3 Wujen+1 Magus+2 Sublime+0 Mindbender+2 Knight+2 Lyric+1=11
Ref:  Bard+3 Paladin+0 Wujen+1 Magus+2 Sublime+0 Mindbender+0 Knight+0 Lyric+4=10
Will: Bard+3 Paladin+0 Wujen+3 Magus+5 Sublime+2 Mindbender+2 Knight+2 Lyric+4=21

Skills: 
Bard 6x5, Pal 2x2, Wu Jen 2x3, Lyric 4x5, Knight 2, Sublime 4, Bender 2, Archmage 2x2, Trickster 4x3, Magus10x2 Human&Int= 5x33 +2 Amplified Int @lvl20 = 11X2 = 291 Skill points 

CL Math: 
Bard2/Wujen3
Bard3/Wujen3(Magus1*Bard*)
Bard4/Wujen4(Magus2)
Bard5/Wujen5(Magus3)
Bard5/Sublime1/Wujen5(Sublime1)
Bard5/Sublime2/Wujen5(Magus4*Sublime*)
Bard5/Sublime3/Wujen6(Magus5)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen7(Magus6)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen8(Bender1*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen9(Lyric1*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen10(Lyric2*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen11(Lyric3*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen12(Lyric4*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime4/Wujen13(Lyric5*Wujen*)
Bard5/Sublime5/Wujen13(Magus7*Sublime*)
Bard5/Sublime6/Wujen14(Magus8)
Bard5/Sublime7/Wujen15(Magus9)
Bard5/Sublime8/Wujen16(Magus10)
Bard5/Sublime10/Wujen16(Trickster3*Sublime*)
Bard5/Sublime10/Wujen18(Archmage2*Wujen*)
CL: Bard 10, Sublime 33, Wujen 33
[/sblock]

I just need to add specific Knowledge info & DC's to flesh out the background.
[sblock=Background]
Kayla Elzmyr was descended from a long line of heroes and legends.  The Elzmyrs before her had all been mighty and noble.. Paladins, Sorcerors, even a few Dragons were amongst her ancestors.  Her youthful obsession with music came, needless to say, as somewhat of a letdown to her parents.  While her siblings were beginning their careers in politics, studying the finer arts, or off adventuring, all she seemed interested in was music.  

Ever since she had been a child, Kayla had heard the Song, it was inside her, all around her, in everything... But when she tried to express it, the sounds she produced came as a shock to those around her.. Metallic, loud, sometimes jarring, and rarely melodic.  It wasn't long before she was sent to the temple for some 'military and spiritual guidance'.  The two years she spent there, although informative, were hard - both on Kayla and those around her.  She was not cut out for the life of a paladin, and though she managed to tap into the divine spark, she could tell that she was 'doing it wrong'.  Her power came not from a deity, but from something else, something that called to her.  Her time at the temple did settle her somewhat though, calming the chaos within her.

After her unsuccessful attempts to join the ranks of the holy knights, it was decided that perhaps the minor arcane proficiency she'd developed (at the great consternation of the temples head paladin) could be focused into something constructive.  Thus was Kayla sent east, to enter the tutelage of her uncle, a wise and powerful master of arcane secrets.  She learned quickly under him, and her focus and clarity grew, taking her beyond the shortsightedness that had hindered her as a child.  It was while she was attempting to learn the art of combining her different magical styles that she heard it again - The music that had been her life when she was young - only know, it came through so clearly, and at last she understood.  It wasn't just about the sound, she was actually hearing the magic behind the world itself... Her mind had just been so unfocused before that it had been unable to translate what she heard.  And again, something was calling to her.. but this time, she could follow the call.

Her journey took her deep within the bowels of the earth, over pits of tar, beyond a portal of fire, past the corridor of contradiction, and through the hall of the mountains king she travelled.  She bested a devil in a musical duel, convinced a Trumpet Archon that she was worthy of his blessing, and crept past a dragon asleep for so long it had become covered in stalagmite formations.
Finally, Kayla found herself in a chamber untouched for millenia.  The song of the ages reverberated throughout the auditorium, and in the center was a pedastal holding an ornate book, its silver-trimmed exterior covered in musical and magical symbols.  Above the book floated an imposing looking mace, which introduced itself as the defender of the song.

With the help of "OF", and a great deal of time, Kayla was able to translate and understand the mystical music of the Songbook of the Ages, finally tapping into the song of the universe.  Once she understood the book (Or at least a good portion of it, there are verses yet beyond even her grasp) she set out into the world, to spread the word.. Or at least, that was the intention.  On her way out of the cavern, she passed once more the sleeping ancient wyrm, and such was OF's hatred of the beast that he could not keep silent, crying out for its death.  Although she was able to (just barely, with the help of the universal song) defeat it, it inflicted her with an ancient curse which stole her voice.

Through her magical prowess, Kayla forged powers of telepathy that allowed her to converse with those around her once more, but without her voice, she was unable to properly spread the song, and fell into a great depression.  She gave in for a time to OF's hatred of dragons, for their part in the fall of the song, and the two of them quested after many great wyrms, destroying any they came across.  It was while hunting a Great Silver, a reputed relative of hers, that she heard the song for the last time, and understood how far off the path she had gone.   Her actions had become meaningless, almost evil, and there was but one way to atone.  Against OF's very vocal objections, she offered her life to the Silver, convinced that if the curse could not be lifted, the song should find a new messenger.  Impressed by her offer, and chagrined at his races part in the downfall of the Song, the Silver made her an offer.  Its power could not match the evil drake she had fought before, even in final death, but together they could.  The two wove a communal spell, breaking the curse and freeing the Song at the cost of both of their lives, knowing that it was now unrestrained, and would find a new messenger, she died at peace, not knowing that it would once more choose her.
[/sblock]
As far as your scale of how old we are, not sure how to indicate that, but her story should be as recently as possible.  I also wanted to talk to you about some Fluff Stuff for the book..

[sblock=MR DM RE: SongBook of the Ages]
I was hoping to make the book a big, epic item much like the rod, to show its significance and importance, but I couldn't really find any magical books that aren't artifacts.  So, instead I've just taken some liberties with having it contain a lot of information.  Essentially most of the Knowledges Kayla has are from reading the songs in the book (Many of which detail past, and maybe even future events).  I also added the 'manual/tomes' of Inherent stat bonuses to it as a flavour thing.  Any other ideas?  (Also feel free to use it as a plot device to pass along any info/insight you wish, I make a very good DM Shill.  )
[/sblock]


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## Jemal (May 1, 2011)

New question for DM: How do you rule Nat 1's/Nat 20's?
I assume they are auto fail/success for Attacks/Saves(As is standard for most games), but what about Skill Checks?  I've played with and DM'd several variants, from 'nothing special, a 1 is a 1 and a 20 is a 20', to the auto success/failure, and a variant in between which is what I usually use when I'm DMing myself: +/-10 (Or 20 if you wanna make it really big).
Essentially a 1 is treated as a -10, a 20 is treated as a 30. 
IE: if you had a +20 skil modifier, a 1 would be treated as a result of 10, and a 20 would be a result of 50.

Just wondering which you use?  It occured to me that not accounting for a 'nat one' doing something bad to me, I know everything about Omega, and everything but the highest DC on Hanshu (Which requires an 8, or 3 if I expend my Collector of Stories).
It does makes sense though, considering she's wielding the book that contains the epic balads devoted to each of the legends..


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## Vertexx69 (May 1, 2011)

Albedo said:


> Thats a clerical casting rule, as well as druid I believe. I cast using Chameleon, who can cast any divine spells. Origionally I was going to be an evil character using an ur-priest to cast good spells, but I thought this way was more interesting (and party friendly).



Don't mind me, just my reflexive rules laywer rearing his ugly head  (thought I had beaten him into submission a couple years ago). Mellow game with the craziest sillyness we can come up with  raaar!


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## ghostcat (May 1, 2011)

Phew.  Finally finish. I hope I've got it right.

Background and DCs to follow.

[sblock=Ishasha Amar de Wasmer]
	
	



```
[B]Class:[/B] Ranger(17), Swashbuckler(3), Dervish(10)
[B]Race:[/B] Human
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Female
[B]Alignment:[/B] Chaotic Neutral
[B]Deity:[/B]
[B]Vision:[/B] Darkvision (60')
[b]Move:[/b] 9 Squares,55 ft.

STR 10 (+0)  [base 10]
DEX 38 (+14) [base 18] +7 [STAT Increase] +5 [Inherent] +8 [Enhancement]
CON 28 (+9)  [base 18] +4 [Inherent] +6 [Enhancement]
INT 28 (+6)  [base 18] +4 [Inherent] +6 [Enhancement]
WIS 16 (+3)  [base 16]
CHA 10 (+0)  [base 10]

[b]Fortitude:[/b] +29 (+11 [Base], +9[CON], +5[EPIC], +4[Ring])
[b]Reflex:[/b]    +28 (+13 [Base], +14[DEX], +5[ÈPIC], +1[Ability: Grace] +4[Ring])
[b]Will:[/b]      +26 (+10 [Base], +3[WIS], +5[EPIC], +4[FEAT: Epic ill] +4[Ring])

[b]Armor Class:[/b] 51 (10[Base], +14[DEX], +3 [Dervish] +1[FEAT: Two-Weapon Defence] +14[Bracers] +5[Natural Armour] +4[Deflection: Ring])
[b]Armour Class - Fighting Defensively, Total defence:[/b] 56 (51[STD AC] +1[FEAT:Two-Weapon Defence] +4[ABILITY:Elaborate Parry])
[b]Armour Class - Agains OOC:[/b] 53 (51[STD AC] +2[FEAT: Mobility])
[B]Touch:[/B] 20              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 14
[i]20% miss chance due to Cloak[/i]
[b]Spell Resistance:[/b] 40 (44 against Evil)

[B]HP:[/B] 415 = (90 [Ranger (17d8)] +17 [Swashbuckler (3d10)] +38 [Dervish +(10d10)] +270[CON])

[b]Initiative:[/b]  +16 
[b]BAB:[/b] +20+5[Epic], Melee +25/+20/+15/+10, Ranged +39/+34/+29/+24, Grapple +25/+20/+15/+10

[B]Weapon                  Attack         Damage     Critical[/B]
Scimitar:One Hand         [color=lightblue]+45/+40/+35/+30[/color] [color=red]1d6+14[/color]  [color=green]15-20[/color]/x2
Scimitar:TWF-Primary      +43/+38/+33/+28 [color=red]1d6+14[/color] [color=green]15-20[/color]/x2
Scimitar:TWF-Secondary    [color=yellow]+43/+38/+33/+28[/color] [color=red]1d6+14[/color]      [color=green]15-20[/color]/x2
Composite Shortbow	  +39/+34/+29/+24 1d6        20/x3 70'

[i]Color Codes:[/i] [color=lightblue][FEAT:Weapon Finess],[FEAT:Slashing Blades], [FEAT:Weapon Focus], [Weapon][/color];
[color=yellow][FEAT:Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting][/color];
[color=red]+4{FEAT:Insightful Strike] +5[Weapon][/color];
[color=green][FEAT: Power Critical[/color]

[B]Class Abilities:[/B]
Dervish
1,3,5,7,9	Dervish Dance (5/day, +5 bonus to attack and damage, Lasts 9 rounds)
1		Movement Mastery
1		Slashing Blades
2,5,8		Fast Movement (+15 to speed)
3		Spring Attack
4		Dance of Death
6		Improved Reaction
7		Elaborate Parry (+4 to AC when fighting defensively)
9		Tireless Dance
10		A Thousand Cuts (1/day, Double No. of Melee attacks in Full attack)

Ranger
1.		Favored Enemy (Humanoid (Orc))
1.		Wild Empathy
1.		Track
2.		Combat Style (Two Weapon Fighting)
3.		Endurance
4.		Animal Companion
5.		Favored Enemy (Outsider (Evil))
6.		Improved Combat Style (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)
7.		Woodland Stride
8.		Swift Tracker
9.		Evasion
10.		Favored Enemy (Undead)
11.		Combat Style Mastery (Greater Two-Weapon Fighting)
13.		Camouflage
15.		Favored Enemy (Dragon)
17.		Hide in Plain Sight

Swashbuckler
1.	Weapon Finesse
2.	Grace
3.	Insightful Strike


[B]Feats:[/B]
1.		Combat Expertise
1-Bonus		Dodge
3.		Mobility
6.		Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
9.		Improved Critical (Scimitar)
12.		Power Critical (Scimitar)
15.		Defensive Strike
18.		Combat Reflexes
21.		Combat Casting
24.		Two-Weapon Defense
27		Epic Will
30.		Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting

Automatic
-		Armor Proficiency (Light)
-		Martial Weapon Proficiency
-		Shield Proficiency
-		Simple Weapon Proficiency

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 337 +22[Inherent]
[B]Max Ranks:[/B] 33/16.5
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Balance                    19   +14   +2    +35
Escape Artist              19   +14   +0    +33
Heal                       30   +3    +0    +33
Hide                       33   +14   +0    +47
Jump                       22   +0    +15   +37
Knowledge (Geography)      8    +9    +0    +17
Knowledge (Nature)         14   +9    +4    +27
Listen                     33   +3    +0    +36
Move Silently              33   +14   +0    +47
Perform (Dance)            19   +0    +0    +19
Ride                       9    +14   +0    +23
Search                     25   +9    +0    +34
Sense Motive               6    +3    +0    +9
Spot                       26   +3    +0    +29
Survival                   33   +3    +0    +36
- Find or follow tracks         +3    +2    +38
- Lost/Natural hazards)         +3    +2    +38
- Natural environments)         +3    +2    +38
Swim                       6    +0    +0    +6
- Avoid fatigue damage)         +0    +4    +10
Tumble                     19   +14   +2    +35

[b]Equipment[/b]
Amulet of Protection (104,000)
- Natural Armor +5, (50,000)
- Health +6 (36,000)
- 50% Combo Charge (18,000)
Boots of Enhanced Movement (24,250)
- Boots, Winged (16,000)
- Boots of Striding and Springing (5,500)
- 50% Combo Charge (2,750)
Bracers of Epic Armor +14 (1.96mil)
Cloak of Defence (326,500)
- Mantal of Epic Spell Resistance +40 (290,000)
- Displacement (Minor) (24,000)
- 50% Combo Charge (12,000)
Gloves of Epic Dexterity +8 (640,000)
Goggles of Night (12,000)
Handy Haversack (2,000)
- Figurine of Wondrous Power (Obsidian Steed) (28,500)
Headband of Intellect +6 (36000)
Ring of Regeneration (90,000)
Ring of Virtuous Good (250,000)
Flaming Scimitar  (200,315)
- +5 (Flaming Burst/Ghost touch/Holy)
Shocking Scimitar (200,315)
- +5 (Ghost touch/Holy/Shocking Burst)
Composite Shortbow (75)

[b]Books Read:[b] Dex +5, Con +4, Int +4

[B]Total Weight:[/B]18 lbs.      [B]Money:[/B] 69,000gp, 0sp, 0cp Gems:

                          [B]Lgt   Med   Hvy  Lift  Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]                33    66   100

[b]Spells per Day[/b]

Level:	1	2	3	4
Number:	3	3	3	1

[B]Age:[/B] 32
[B]Height:[/B] 5' 9"
[B]Weight:[/B] 125 lbs.lb
[B]Eyes:[/B] Green
[B]Hair:[/B] Blond
[B]Skin:[/B] Brown
```
[/sblock][sblock=Background]Before I can tell you my story, I need to tell you a bit about my people; the Cuna. A nomadic tribe of some one hundred clans, who lived and roamed the Verde plain. Mostly herders only a few clans ever left the plain to trade and explorer in the surrounding lands.

In the middle of the plain is a circle of standing stones, that the Cuna called the Cakra. I don't know if it still exists but it was ancient when I was born. Every year all the Cuna clans gather at the Cakra to celebrate the summer solstice.

My birth clan, the Amar, roamed the plane with their herd of cattle, sheep and goats. I spent my childhood looking after sheep and goats. As I grow older, I also helped protect the heard from the occasional animal predator and the more common Orcish rustlers.

At the solstice meet following my coming of age, I met and married Juan Wesmer, leaving my birth clan and joining the Wesmer clan. I won't say it was a love match but we grew to like and respect each other, so I don't suppose I can complain.

The Wesmer clan consisted of 20 extended families, travelling the world in horse-drawn caravans. Ostensibly they were supposed to be traders. Although if truth be told they were more interested in seeing what was over the next hill than in trading.

I spent the next several years acting as scout for the clan and rising my five children. At the same time my mother-in-law capitalised on my natural agility and started teaching me the Cuna's unique fighting style, known only to a few tribe's members; mainly women.

Having just finished my preliminary training, I was just starting to master the slashing dance, which characterised the style, when the daemon war started. We never found out who did it but someone left a gate open to the abyss, permitting demon hordes to teem onto the prime.

At this time the clan had just discovered an unknown pass through the southern mountains and we were as far from the Verde plain as we had ever being. The first we knew of the invasion was when we received a message from the tribal elders telling us the clans were assembling at the Cakra and that we should return as soon as possible. This was the start of the Warmer clan's long hard fight back home.

In actuality we probably did not meet many demons probably only one or two a day but it felt like we had to fight for every mile we gained. Eventually we made it back to the Verde plain and were starting to relax, that's when things went from bad to worse. Orcus joined the invasion along with his hoard of undead. Instead of the odd demon looking for a meal, it was groups of zombies trying to kill you for no other reason than you were alive. We finally made it back to the Cakra. Everyone was injured, some seriously but miraculously no-one was dead.

Not all the clans made it and most of the ones that did had suffered fatalities. However, a surprising number did make it; the Cuna were a tough people.

The elders started to organise the tribe's defence. Much to my surprise, I was made tribal champion and presenting with my matched pair of scimitars.

The tribe had longer then they expected to prepare but eventually the demons got round to the Cuna. The fighting was long and protracted and while I could easily handle one or two demons, they eventually recognised my importance and came at me in hords. Although I destroyed what seemed like thousands, they were just too many and I was eventually overwhelmed.

How much time had passed I don't know but eventually I recovered conciousness and found myself covered in rotting demons corpses. Pushing my way through I emerged to a slaughterhouse. There were rotting bodies everywhere, human and demon. Plus some unidentifiable things that were long dead. Feasting on this carnage were what seemed like the plain's entire population of scavengers and vultures.

Needless of my own safety I started to run round in a panic checking the human bodies. I found my husband, in-laws, father and brothers. But there were no signs of my children or my mother and sisters. Calming down I noticed that most of the tribe's men had been killed but a lot of the woman and almost all of the children were missing. Checking the area outside of the battlefield for tracks, I finally found faint indications of a large group of humans surrounded by demons.

Revealed that my children were still alive but realising that I was very weak and in no fit state to rescue them, I belatedly sat down to think things through.

Firstly why was I still alive? This one was easy, it could only be the unusual wedding ring my husband gave me. What to do next? Obviously follow the track. At the moment I was in no fit state. So I started to search the bodies, demons as well as humans for anything useful. As for the bodies themselves, there were just to0 many for me to bury. I did briefly think of burying my relations but in the end decided to leave them with the others. As an aside, I did eventually find out that the demons intended to come back and raise the dead but got distracted.

Having found a number of unique items and emptied three curative wands in the process, I was ready to depart. The tracks were old and difficult to follow but I persevered. In the process I encountered a number of other tracks indicating that some of my people had escaped.
I followed the main tracks for several days. At last I came to an underground complex that the Cuna never even known existed. I'd rather forget the next few days, as I scouted an underground cave system teeming with demons. Knowing that if I was found my children were doomed but i needed all the information I could get if I was to rescue them. I found the prisoners; they were safe but very well guarded. I also found the gate that was the source of the invasion, also well guarded. As it was impossible for me to save the prisoners and destroy the gate alone, I had to retreat. I then set about rounding up the Cana survivors.

Eventually we attacked the complex. Split into two parties, the main party's job was to rescue the prisoners; while I lead a small group of heroes  and set about destroying the gate.

Unfortunately things did not turn out as planned. Orcus' avatar had taken over guarding the gate. The fight was long and fierce and I ended up sacrificing myself in order to destroy the gate.[/sblock][sblock="15+6=21 (Religion)"]Ishasha Wesmer was the Cuna tribal champion during the demon war[/sblock][sblock="10+17=27 (Religion)"]The demon war occurred in 6,572 Common Reckoning, when demon hordes invadid the Prime through an unsecured gate[/sblock][sblock="10+20=30 (Religion)"]Ishasha Wesmer destroyed the gate, thus ending the Demon war[/sblock][sblock="25+5=30 (Religion)"]Ishasha Wesmer lead the Wesmer clan in there heroic odyssey from the southern mountains to the Verde plain at the beginning of the demon war[/sblock][sblock="30+1 = 31 (Geography)"]The Cakra was an ancient stone circle  which held some religious significance to the Cuna[/sblock][sblock="15+18 = 33 (Geography)"]The Cuna were a nomadic tribe of herders that lived around the middle of the 6th millennium Common Reckoning.[/sblock][sblock="20+20=40 (Religion)"]Ishasha Wesmer died during the Cakra massacrer. Only to rise from the dead[/sblock][sblock="35+5=40 (Religion)"]Ishasha Wesmer rallied the survivors of the Cakra massacrer and lead the attack on the Demon's base that ended the demon war[/sblock][sblock="30+19=49 (Geography)"]Ishasha Wesmer lead the group that discovered the western pass through the southern mountains[/sblock][sblock="40+19=59 (Geography)"]Ishasha Wesmer's children survived the demon war and went on to rebuild the Cuna tribe[/sblock]


----------



## Wilphe (May 1, 2011)

I think I will pass here, as I am afraid as my build skills are not up to the task

Thank you anyway


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 1, 2011)

Wilphie: If thats what you think is best. Hate to lose you.

Ghost Cat: Looks good, though I must ask. You only have a +4 deflection bonus to AC. Wouldn't you save a boatload of cash if you reduced your bracers of armor and invested the money into getting your deflection to +5?


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## Jemal (May 2, 2011)

Wilphe - It's not about the build skills (Well, not ALL about the build skills, though they do grow with every use).   Epic is about picking a concept that you couldn't ordinarily do and doing it to the best of your ability, whithout worrying too much how it will stack up to the other characters.  
At epic, it's usually better for the better munchers to power themselves down to keep in line with the party's power level than to expect everyone else to twink themselves out.  
And if it comes down to it, Those who DO build powerful characters do so b/c we love building epic characters, so if you ever want/need any assisstance, most of us would be more than eager to help out.  

If the fact that you _THINK_ you're out of your league is the only thing keeping you out, I'd highly suggest trying anyways.  At the very least you may learn something you can apply to future epic characters, and at the best you end up playing an awesome fun character that you'll love 


Dharuhk - Any Thoughts on my character or answers to my questions?

ghostcat - I gotta agree with Dharuhk, the cost between +13 armour and +14 armour is 270,000.  That's 5X the cost of a rings of protection+5... *L* And the Deflection bonus is useful in more circumstances (I can't think of a single circumstance where you would loose the deflection bonus but keep the armour bonus)
Also, I see you're getting your resistance and Deflection bonuses from the +4 from Holy Aura (Ring of Virtuous good), but I'm really not convinced that it's a useful ability.
Just a little crunching: 
+4 Resistance, +4 Deflection : These could be gotten cheaper and better with +5's.
SR 25vs Evil : Eh, at lvl 30 this is a 5% chance to negate an evil character's spell, more useful would be DMG's spell resistance cloak, only gives SR 18 but it's functionally the same due to the caster levels we'll be dealing with (Better b/c it would apply vs neutral and good spells also)
Blocks possession and mental influence: Can get same bonus from anything that gives Pro Evil.
Blinding : OK, this parts pretty cool and I can't think of another way to duplicate it.

So yeah, if you're taking it for the bonuses, there are more effective ways to do it.  If you're using it for the fluffy awesomeness of good, then I'd suggest also adding +5 Deflection to the ring for 75K.  Even though it's a lot to pay for 1 armour bonus, it's less than the 270K you're paying for the 13-14 bracers difference.


----------



## ghostcat (May 2, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre and Jemel. Thanks for the comments guys. As you can probably tell I'm not used to working at these powers level. Although I have to admit building Ishasha was a valuable learning experience.  The ring was taken as it fits nicely into the background. Anyway, I'll take your comments under serious consideration but I want to get the background up first. Hopefully later today or tomorrow.

Does +1 to deflection really make that much difference? 

Wilphe. The highest character I've played before now is level 10. I used pcgen and built her one level at a time. Very time consuming but you to get to see how things fit together.  What was interesting was how 4Mil GPs worth of magic items change the character


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## Wilphe (May 2, 2011)

Ok, here is what I have in outline

Quarnabeet

Hobgoblin Ftr 2 / Marshall 27

Normal Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot

Leadership
Force of Personality
Jack of All Trades
Improved Initative
Improved Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
EWP: Musket (Story reasons, that's not his weapon)

Epic Feats:
Superior Initative or Multiaura
Epic Leader
Legendry Commander
Widen Aura
Lasting Aura

Base Stats:
S  18
D  25
C  25
I   25
W 15
C  30

Grant Move Action 7/day
Major Aura +5


At the moment, despite archer feats his main effect is to stand next to you and grant circumstance bonuses and move actions.

I am uncertain how much initative is going to be important to that, so I might either take up to Ftr 4 to get Weapn Specialisation so his damage output is not so terrible and get a 4the iterative or drop the Ftr levels entirely if he does not need so many feats.


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## Nephtys (May 2, 2011)

Hello. I've been away for a few years but before that I was pretty active and played a few epic games with some of you (hi Jemal, Shayuri ). I'm a bit rusty on the mechanics, but I think it would be fun to give it a shot.

Is this game still open to new players? What types of character would best complement the others characters abilities?


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 2, 2011)

Jemal: I'll have to think on that tome. I'll get back to you but so far what you have seems good. Btw, I'll be going with the +/- 20 on the 20/1 rolls. I've always believed that bonuses got so high in epic alot of rolls stopped mattering. I intend to make you guys sweat at least a little when you roll dem bones. 

Albedo: I'm a little sketchy on the exalted character casting evil spells... but I'm gonna let this one slip through. It is a fun campaign after all, and your character seems to be based on the concept. Points for storytelling I guess.

Nephtys: Welcome aboard. So far any role would fit honestly, but it really depends on if we are doing more than one party.

Wiplhie: Looks good so far. Hope you decide to stay in.

We got 5 characters posted so far. Looking good. To those of you still working at it, feel free to take your time, but I would like an estimate as to how long you think it will take.

Also, I still haven't seen anybodys preferences on whether ot not we are splitting the party and who goes where. Speak up people.


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## Nephtys (May 2, 2011)

Thanks. It will probably take a few days for me to write up a new character, unless I can recycle the stats of an old one.
 I get the impression you don't place a lot of restrictions on our builds so I'm thinking about making a monstrous character, perhaps an Outsider of some sort. Would that be ok?


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 2, 2011)

Nephtys said:


> Thanks. It will probably take a few days for me to write up a new character, unless I can recycle the stats of an old one.
> I get the impression you don't place a lot of restrictions on our builds so I'm thinking about making a monstrous character, perhaps an Outsider of some sort. Would that be ok?




sounds good.


----------



## Nephtys (May 2, 2011)

How do I calculate the effective level of a monstrous character of a species that doesn't have a LA? Do I base it on HD or CR or something else?


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## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

I'm gonna cast my vote for a party split..  So far we've got an Exalted character, A Paladin, and a Vampire who's backstory pegs him as pretty Bleeping evil, and.. er.. one of these things is not like the other? (No offense Vertexx, I just don't see the Exalted and the Paladin getting along to well with Hanshu).  Not enough info on the others to figure out where they'd belong.


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## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

My favorite idea right now is a Marilith, and that would probably not work too well with a Paladin and an Exalted, unless I play her as a fallen demon or an amnesiac and in either case she would probably be morally confused rather than good per se.

But if she's even allowed I'll need an ECL-ruling from Dharuhk Svahre before I can put some more work into it.

Can you say no to this face?


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## Wilphe (May 3, 2011)

Quarnabeet is LN

Very LN.

He has no problem with paladins - but does not mean that they will not have a problem with him.
He has a big problem with being racial profiled.

He is more or less done; I just need to put all the stats in one place


Expect to do that and upload everything Thursday.


What deities are we using BTW?


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 3, 2011)

Nephtys said:


> My favorite idea right now is a Marilith, and that would probably not work too well with a Paladin and an Exalted, unless I play her as a fallen demon or an amnesiac and in either case she would probably be morally confused rather than good per se.
> 
> But if she's even allowed I'll need an ECL-ruling from Dharuhk Svahre before I can put some more work into it.
> 
> Can you say no to this face?



Ok, well first off I'm gonna mention that anything with a level adjustment of - isn't meant to be played as a character. Now that being said I didn't deny your request flat out. Unfortunatly, after trolling Devil/Demon CR for about 20 minutes, its become clear that every level adjustment is within 2 of their HD. Basically that would put you at 16 HD and 14 level adjustment which would force you to play a straight marileth out of the monster manual. Though I suppose the fact that you'd get 4.3 million gold worth of stuff means you'd have at least some customization. Its up to you.



Wilphe said:


> Quarnabeet is LN
> 
> Very LN.
> 
> ...




Hmmm... deities. So far I've been using Greyhawk standard, but I'm not gainst mixing and matching.


----------



## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre said:


> Ok, well first off I'm gonna mention that anything with a level adjustment of - isn't meant to be played as a character. Now that being said I didn't deny your request flat out. Unfortunatly, after trolling Devil/Demon CR for about 20 minutes, its become clear that every level adjustment is within 2 of their HD. Basically that would put you at 16 HD and 14 level adjustment which would force you to play a straight marileth out of the monster manual. Even if I gave some wiggle room and dropped the LA a little I don't think its gonna work out very well for you.




Oh, no that wouldn't be very balanced. Unless... I think I remember that there is a rule in some book that allows us to buy down LA with XP (pay ?x1000 xp for each level of LA). That would make her a lower level character but unburdened by the LA. I'm not sure that would work with a LA of 14 though, maybe 10 or 12. I don't even know the book the rule is in. Maybe someone else does?
Figured it out myself. It's in the SRD. Unfortunately it requires 18 class levels to even begin buying off an LA of 6, which means she cannot do it unless we make this a level 48 game 
So, back to the drawing board I guess.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 3, 2011)

I don't know where that rule is from, but I know I probably wouldn't allow it. However, I have made a decision based off of looking over all of the merileth's stats. I'm gonna knock your level adjustment down to 10. That will give you 4 levels to play with, then 10 LA and 16 racial HD.


----------



## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

it's unearthed arcana and is extremely broken at high level... No offense Neph, not tryin to rain on your Marilith parade.

I'd say 10 LA sounds about right given the bonuses of the Marilith.


----------



## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre said:


> I don't know where that rule is from, but I know I probably wouldn't allow it. However, I have made a decision based off of looking over all of the merileth's stats. I'm gonna knock your level adjustment down to 10. That will give you 4 levels to play with, then 10 LA and 16 racial HD.




That's ok, it wouldn't work for her anyway since she wouldn't have enough class levels to begin using it. 

I like the concept, though so I'll give the Marilith a try. Do you allow me to use the Monster Manual II Monster of Legend (pg 213)? It's a powerful template but would fit the premise of the game well and make her more worthy of being "collected" than other dead mariliths.



Jemal said:


> it's unearthed arcana and is extremely broken at high level... No offense Neph, not tryin to rain on your Marilith parade.
> 
> I'd say 10 LA sounds about right given the bonuses of the Marilith.




None taken. I need a bit of support on the rules, so I appreciate that you're trying to help.


----------



## Vertexx69 (May 3, 2011)

Jemal said:


> I'm gonna cast my vote for a party split..  So far we've got an Exalted character, A Paladin, and a Vampire who's backstory pegs him as pretty Bleeping evil, and.. er.. one of these things is not like the other? (No offense Vertexx, I just don't see the Exalted and the Paladin getting along to well with Hanshu).  Not enough info on the others to figure out where they'd belong.



Hanshu was very evil for the first 650 years of his unlife, but then got tired of the endless slaughter and turned his attention to seeking knowledge and then spent over 200 years slowly moving toward his current outlook of altruistic wimsy (CN). After which he built a city and became an instructor in the martial path of the nine swords, for those dedicated individuals that can look past the whole "learning from the undead" thing. With his betrayal by his own kind, he has since developed an intolerance to all other undead, during the countless eons he laid at the bottom of the gorge of shadows.


----------



## Shayuri (May 3, 2011)

Omega is amoral, at least to start with. He has a series of directives that are hardcoded into him to fulfill. Previously, anything outside of those directives was also outside of his interest.

Now, however, most of the directives are obsolete. The only one that still applies is his self-preservation directive.

It is very likely he'll be modeling his morality after whichever group he winds up being part of.


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## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

Nephy, two problems with the monster of legend concept
A: Applies only to animal, magical beast, or humanoid, changes type to outsider. (Marilith is allready an outsider and so Not Applicable)
B: Level Adjustment +7.  Even with the LA reduction to 10 that Dharuhk has decided on, that would put you at lvl 33.


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## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

So I've been going through the knowledge DC's posted so far, and I came across this which confused me


			
				Vertexx69 said:
			
		

> DC 18 The Vampire that sired him was named Evaine. Hanshu tried to kill her for weeks after she
> turned him. She met her final death during the cleansing of Mon'Sharu, after living with him
> there for many decades.
> 
> ...



So, are the numbers from your rolls added onto what it allready is, or were they added allready?  If added allready, that would make your starting DC's 
1, 24, 14, 26, 19, 31, 40, 23, 52..
If after, that would make the dc's.. 
35, 30, 44, 44, 51, 41, 42, 63, 58.

Either way is a bit confusing.. Why would you have such seemingly random DC's.. arent' they supposed to be like 5/10/15/20/etc before the randoms?
I got curious as I was going through other peoples DC's trying to decide what to put mine as.. Is there a limit to how high/low the initial DC should be?


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## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Nephy, two problems with the monster of legend concept
> A: Applies only to animal, magical beast, or humanoid, changes type to outsider. (Marilith is allready an outsider and so Not Applicable)
> B: Level Adjustment +7. Even with the LA reduction to 10 that Dharuhk has decided on, that would put you at lvl 33.




A: You got me there.

B: The CR is only +2, I don't see anything about the LA.

So, what can I do with my 4 levels that's legally overpowered? I'm looking to maximize the nr of attacks and make them hurt by using Devastating Critical (the required feats eat almost my entire allowance but it should be pretty nice). I'm also looking at the Multiweapon tree. Strength + whatever I can synergize with 1 or 2 level dips are my prioritized stats.


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## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

Monsters Manual 2 3.5 Update From wizards website contains the LA.

As for the 4 lvls, we're on it.  catch ya back in a few.


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## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

OK, ideas so far: 
For the levels: 

Half dragon barbarian (+10 speed, flight, bonus strength, 1 bab)

Half celestial : More amusing than powerful, the half angelic fiend would have a reason to be caught between two worlds.  Would require GM ruling to allow it to be added to the marilith (As it states it's requires a non-evil base creature)

Swashbuckler3/fgtr 1: Bonus feat, 4 bab, Intelligence to dmg with all attacks (Doesn't hurt things with immunity to crits/sneak attacks)

Fgtr1/Dervish 3 : A standard for dual wielders.  Bonus feat, 4 bab, Dervish 2/day for move+attack and +2 atk/dmg.

Other stuff: 
Fiendish grafts.. on a fiend.. who's trying not to be evil.  I don't know, I find it amusing. (And some of them are rather powerful), depending on what the DM thinks.

Feat from Rokugan: Hand of Osano-wo.  This is a must-have for dual-wielders (Or multi-weapon fighters), it allows you to add your full str bonus to dmg with all attacks instead of half with the off-hand attacks.

Quicken Spell-Like ability for Greater Teleport (To close the gap so you don't have to charge and loose all your bonus attacks.. assuming you're not taking dervish dancing.


Another option would be instead of 6 weapons, wielding some combination of Falchion & Scimitars(If you want improved threat range), Scythe/Picks(For improved crit damage), or Greatsword/shortsword(For just straight damage).
1 BIG as primary, 4 LIGHT as off-hands


Also, keep in mind that at 20HD you won't be getting any epic feats, so Devastating Crit is kinda out.


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## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

Well while I'm at it I might as well look at all the other characters and give my opinions.. wanted or not. 

Lets start with Omega, since Warlock's my favourite class.

Shayuri, first off I have to say that you are one of the best Epic Warlock creators I have ever seen.
Aside from myself, of course.
Gaming in front of a mirror..
Which I do...
Every day...
In ze nude.
 *EDit: Cookie/xp to any who get the reference. 

Anyways.. *L* The only thing I have to say about the character is that I would highly suggest swapping your Cha and Dex.

I understand that Charisma is the 'warlock stat', but that's a bit misleading.. What exactly are you using your epic charisma FOR? 
Dark luck: Bonus to one save.
Eldritch Cone, Eldritch Doom, Retributive Invisibility, Utterdark Blast: Save DC

OK granted that's more than I usually use, but the Dex would grant Reflex and Attack bonus which I believe will be far more useful (Especially since your attack bonus is very low as is).  The Dc's for your abilities are currently max of 31 (For Doom and Utterdark), which for almost everything/person we'll be fighting is an instance of "Don't Nat 1", so I doubt loosing the ~4 DC for swapping to Dex would make a difference.


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## Shayuri (May 3, 2011)

I calculate my DC for any Blast-related effect as being DC 34.

The reason is that the DC for EB's is based either on the blast or shape "spell level" or on the generic "spell level" of the EB which is 1/2 your character level. Whichever is more.

Still, you have a point. Sadly, my chassis limits the Dex bonus to my AC...


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## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

Ghostcat: Hold onto your Lugnuts, it's time for an overhaul. 

high lvl Ranger is nice fluff-wise, but it's not exactly all that good for power level.  Also the Swashbuckler is a nice class, but I don't think the 6 dmg for 3 lvls is really all that worth it (Especially since it won't apply to things immune to crit/sneak)

A few suggestions, I have.
Primarily, I suggest replacing your Swashbuckler and most of your Ranger with Scout(It's from Complete Adventurer, and is thematically very similar to Ranger, and seems more in line with your characters proposed style), and since you're a dextrous, unarmoured character anyways, why not add the token monk level?  Plus a lvl of fighter for the bonus feat...

My suggestions: 
Levels: Scout16/Ranger2/Monk1/Fighter1/Dervish10

Feats: 
From complete Scoundrel, 
Swift Hunter allows your ranger and scout levels to stack for Skirmish and Favoured Enemy, and allows your Skirmish damage to affect your favoured enemies even if they're immune to critical hits/sneak attack damage.

From Complete Adventurer, 
Improved Skirmish: An additional +2d6 dmg and +2 ac if you skirmish 20' rather than 10'.

From Rokugan: Hand of Osano Wo (See previous post to Nephy for details, also requires DM to OK it since it's an odd source)

Epic Feats:
Drop Combat Casting since there's no more casting.
Drop Epic Will b/c.. well.. meh.. +4 will saves for an Epic feat doesn't seem useful to me(Also your will save shouldn't take a hit due to other changes)
Two Weapon Defense is nice, but the +1 AC isn't all that useful as an Epic Feat.

This buys you three Epic Feats.  Some suggestions I could make are Two Weapon Rend(More damage), Fast Healing(Always fun), Armor Skin (+2ac, better than Two weapon defense), Epic Weapon Focus(+2 attack), Epic Speed(+30' movement is fun for a mobile fighter), Penetrate Damage Reduction.  Also, Epic Speed, Fast Heal, and Armour Skin are all stackable if you want to pick something and just spam it(Though I'd suggest not)

Stats: Drop Con to 17 to raise Wis to 17, and buy +5 books for both, as well as a +6 enhancement to wis.  This would raise your Wisdom to 28, (increasing your Will save even despite loosing the epic will feat).  It also gives you +9 AC from Monk (Since you're not wearing armour/wielding a shield anyways).
GAIN STRENGTH.  Sure you add other things to damage, and don't use it for attack, but it's still extra dmg.  Even just a +4inherent/+6 magical would only cost 146,000 for +5 dmg(This is assuming hand of osano wo is available, if not then it's kind of a tossup). 

First 20 lvls: 
Scout6/Ranger2/Monk1/Fighter1/Dervish10.
BAB 17, Base fort+16(+2 battle fortitude), Ref+17, Will+7*But +6 from wisdom increase*

OK, so what's different?

You would loose your ranger spellcasting*twirls finger*, 3 bab, and a couple minor ranger abilities(Wild Empathy, Animal Companion, Woodland stride, Swift Tracker), You also loose Insightful strike, Weapon Finesse, Improved/Greater Two Weapon Fighting, and Endurance
Most of the important ranger abilities ones are recreated by the new bonuses, and the favoured enemies would keep improving thanks to the Swift Hunter feat.

You would GAIN: 
Well primarily is Skirmish+5d6/4ac: Whenever you move 10' or more in a round before your attacks deal +5d6 damage(Precision based, so useless against things immune to sneak attack/crit) and you gain +4 Competence bonus to AC.  Since you're a dervish, this would likely be your standard attack form anyways..

Other things you gain: Trapfinding, uncanny dodge, +20 enhancment to speed(Does not stack with Dervish sadly, but would give you a net +5 increase to speed), trackless step, Battle Fortitude(+2Fort/Init), evasion, flawles stride, blindsense 30', Monk Wisdom bonus to AC, Flurry of Blows, Improved Unarmed Strike.
You would keep the rangers Camouflage and Hide in plain sight abilities.

By my calculations, your saves would change as follows: Fort+8, Ref+4, Will+0 
Also, Bonus Feats: 
Scout: Swift Hunter, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise(From Scout), Any Fighter : Weapon Finesse to replace the loss of Swashbuckler, I guess?
Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike and either Imp Grapple or Stunning fist(Meh..)

Also since you gained Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Imp TWF, and Weapon Finesse from bonus feats, that leaves you with Greater TWF required on your feat list gained by level, and then you have 2 more feats to select.  If Hand of Osano Wo is allowed, there's one, leaving you with one open (Improved Skirmish is a maybe, or you could take two weapon defense as a non-epic feat, but Improved Skirmish is better in almost every way).


Your saves would improve for the most part (Though Fort would likely drop somewhat), your AC would improve (How much Depends on how much you drop the Bracers and how much you invest in other things). Due to the Monk&Monks belt, even if you dropped your Bracers by 6, your ac would be up by 3(+10 monk, -6 Armour, -1 Shield for loosing TW Defense).  This would go up an additional 4 when you're skirmishing, and could be augmented if you take Armour Skin.


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## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> Still, you have a point. Sadly, my chassis limits the Dex bonus to my AC...




Aye, but not to anything else.

As for the DC's, I was assuming Invocation level.  Going by Half warlock lvl , then that would make them 10+15lvl+13Cha=38, which..actually, isn't that bad.  Vertex, Albedo, and I all make that easily regardless of what save it is(Except FOrt for Vertex, though that don't matter since he's undead), but we're kinda on the high end of saving throws.  I'd Assume a Save bonus of ~ +30 is what you have to beat, a DC 38 would then mean a 35% chance of failure.  Under that assumption, it's not a bad investment, though my personal preference would still be for the Attack bonus.


WILPHE: Unfortunately I know nothing about Marshal or how to play it, and I don't really have any input on a leadership-based character (Especially since I'm not sure how it would work in this type of campaign.. Do you gain a new cohort/followers, or were they resurected along with you?  Are the followers even viable at Epic since most people/monsters could likely wipe them out with little effort?  Is the DM designing the Cohort or leaving that up to you?)


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## ghostcat (May 3, 2011)

[MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION] All I can say is wow; I'm speechless.

I'll comment fully when I have had chance to digest your comments and investigate. My only comment at the moment is "GAINING STRENGTH".  The whole idea was to build a low strength fighter, so gaining strength defeats the object. 

[MENTION=31780]Nephtys[/MENTION] I know I haven't published my background yet but believe me, Ishasha hates demons and will attack him/her on sight

[MENTION=6668704]Dharuhk Svahre[/MENTION] the above comment to Nephtys means that Ishasha and Nephtys' character can't be in the same party.


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## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

Jemal said:


> OK, ideas so far:
> For the levels:
> 
> Half dragon barbarian (+10 speed, flight, bonus strength, 1 bab)
> ...




Ouch! When Jemal opens a window he closes a door . Without epic feats she loses a lot more power.
Dharuhk Svahre, could I get some dispensation on this rule? Her Equivalent Character Level is 30, surely she should get some epic feats? 

I've been thinking of going 1 lvl Marshal (minor focus strength), 1 lvl Monk (wisdom to AC, yes she'd have to be lawful and I feel it cheapens her a bit), 2 lvls Fighter (2 bonus feats).
Fiendish Graft, is that in BoVDarkness? Costs GP, or XP?
Hand Of Osano Wo sounds very interesting. Does it have prerequisites?
Quicken SLA is niceish, but its limited to 3 times/day, right?
Maybe she could have an item with the same effect? A Haste item would let her teleport on the added action and still get a full attack.




ghostcat said:


> @Jemal All I can say is wow; I'm speechless.




Yes, he's pretty awesome.



ghostcat said:


> @Nephtys I know I haven't published my background yet but believe me, Ishasha hates demons and will attack him/her on sight
> 
> @Dharuhk Svahre the above comment to Nephtys means that Ishasha and Nephtys' character can't be in the same party.





Yes, demons and fanatics don't play well together. Unless the fanatics are demon-worshipers. Off course, my character doesn't have to be a typical demon, nor does your character have to be a fanatic. Some nuance is always nice.


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## Shayuri (May 3, 2011)

38 isn't bad. But spell levels cap at 9, regardless of hit dice. 

Reading over the epic monsters, most everything at or near CR 30 has a Fort save that's pretty high. So I think you're right in the final analysis...my focus probably ought to be on dealing straight up damage with Vitriolic and/or normal blasts. As much as I like Utterdark, it's probably not worth it...


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## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

*Deep bow*

Neph : 
Hand of Osano Wo has no prereqs that you wouldn't allready qualify for by being a dual wielder in the first place.

Fiendish grafts are from the Fiend Folio.
Yes Quicken SLA is only 3/day, but it's still a very useful ability.
Especially since Haste giving extra action was 3.0.  It's 3.5 variant is +1 attack when full-attacking, +1 ac, +1 Reflex Saves, +1 attack bonus, and +30 enhancement to movement.
As far as an Item to do it, I think the Belt of Battle from Magic Item Compendium gives you extra actions. It has 3 charges/day, 1 charge:move, 2 charges:Standard, 3 charges: Full Round.  12,000GP
I'd go with both of them personally, if you're worried about the 3/day thing.

As far as the levels go, it's ultimately up to you, I just figured I'd throw out some ideas.

And to the downside of considering some of your HD as Epic - It's basically a trade-off.  If they're epic and qualifying for Epic Feats, then they're NOT granting Base Attack or Saves (Which stop once you become Epic).  The ultimate bummer of LA at Epic.  Either you loose epic feats or you loose Base attack/Saves.



> Yes, demons and fanatics don't play well together. Unless the fanatics are demon-worshipers. Off course, my character doesn't have to be a typical demon, nor does your character have to be a fanatic. Some nuance is always nice.



Unfortunately if his background has him Hating Demons, there's not allways a lot of Nuance involved in hatred.
It's ok, one of you can come play with the Good Guys (ME & Albedo?) and the other can stick with VampyVertexx. 
So where's that leave Shayuri?


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## Wilphe (May 3, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre said:


> I don't know where that rule is from, but I know I probably wouldn't allow it. However, I have made a decision based off of looking over all of the merileth's stats. I'm gonna knock your level adjustment down to 10. That will give you 4 levels to play with, then 10 LA and 16 racial HD.




That is the rule I asked about for me; as Hobgoblins are - so I understand considered week for LA+1 - and the benefit they gain from it (+2 Dex, +2 CHA, +4 Move silently) should be somewhat underwhelming at level 30.


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## Wilphe (May 3, 2011)

Jemal said:


> WILPHE: Unfortunately I know nothing about Marshal or how to play it, and I don't really have any input on a leadership-based character (Especially since I'm not sure how it would work in this type of campaign.. Do you gain a new cohort/followers, or were they resurected along with you?  Are the followers even viable at Epic since most people/monsters could likely wipe them out with little effort?  Is the DM designing the Cohort or leaving that up to you?)




I have no idea about how that will work either, I will leave that to the GMs input. Either way it is two feats that are necessary to his character, so I am not especially bothered what if any benefit he gets from them. I fact I roughly think he is entitled to about 14,000 followers of up to 10th level (and he gets 10 at that level)

Rod of Fortification, Rod of Besiegment, Lyre of Building, Walls of Stone please start building a fortress somewhere. This is why he has K/Architecture and Engineering

I have noted however that Jack of All Trades enables 1/2 rank in all skills, and with a high CHA he can use most wands with a fair chance of success via UMD

And he can have a lot of classed level followers making them for him; depends how viable 1st to 4th level spells will be at this level.


In fact potentially anything that can be churned out by less than 10th level characters he might end up with a large supply (arrows of up to +3 bonus, gives you access to Bane (Whatever I happen to be fightingright now) and all the energy types)

Now:
If you can tell me how to make him an efficient archer, I'll be very greatful.


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## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

Jemal said:


> *Deep bow*
> 
> Neph :
> Hand of Osano Wo has no prereqs that you wouldn't allready qualify for by being a dual wielder in the first place.
> ...




Point taken about the HD as Epic. Maybe I'm better off getting a full attack progression and focusing on dealing damage. Within a few levels I'll be able to gain the epic feats I want anyway since I'll probably pick levels in Fighter.

Grafts in general seem rediculously overpowered. It seems the rules set no limitation on their number so I could add dozens of additional arms and eyestalks and whatnot at a minimal GP cost. It's so broken in fact that I won't touch it, unless there are Celestial grafts which would just be too cool to resist.

Is there an item that grants Antimagic Field activated at will unlimited times/day? If not can I create one using the core item creation rules, or are we only allowed to use already statted items from books?


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## Jemal (May 3, 2011)

Neph : the sources I've seen grafts in state a limit of 5.  Also they replace the current body part and almost all of them are tied to a specific location (Meaning you can't usually have multiples taking up the same location, like with magic items.. You can't replace your heart with a dragons heart AND a fiends heart, for example.. unless you naturally have two hearts...)

As far as permanent antimagic field, I know of a few ways to gain it but I'm not sharing for a couple big reasons.
A: Antimagic field is the least party-friendly ability I can think of
B: It's most useful function is when the character using it is designed specifically to function IN an antimagic field, at which point it's horrendously broken unless you're facing another being designed to function in antimagic. (Same reason I hate the Collosus or Death Magic.. I despise "All or Nothing" encounters)

Neither of these is conducive to fun gaming IMO.

And no, we're not allowed to use the item creation rules, just existing items and Item stacking, with no repeat items (So no buying 20 "X/day" items).  Not sure if he meant that to apply to things like wands/potions, though, or just the more abusable stuff like all the times/day equipment from Magic Item Compendium.


Wilphe - If you plan on your followers being a Magic Item factory don't forget a couple things.
A: Followers with character levels count as 2 lvls higher (So an 8th lvl Sorceror, Wizard, or Cleric would take up the slot of a 10th lvl follower).
B: Item creation requires feats and XP, and you would have to run it all by the DM, figuring out how much XP each follower has.
C: Followers are people too, and are going to want some reason/compensation for supplying you with cheap gear at the expenditure of their life force(XP) and time.

Also, Hobgoblins may be on the lesser side of what you should expect from a LA+1, but +4 stat mods, Darkvision, and +4 move silent is still worth a level.  They're no Feral or Half-Ogre, but Hobs are still worth their LA... barely.


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## ghostcat (May 3, 2011)

I've added Background and Knowledge checks to this post.


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## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

Jemal said:


> As far as permanent antimagic field, I know of a few ways to gain it but I'm not sharing for a couple big reasons.
> A: Antimagic field is the least party-friendly ability I can think of
> B: It's most useful function is when the character using it is designed specifically to function IN an antimagic field, at which point it's horrendously broken unless you're facing another being designed to function in antimagic. (Same reason I hate the Collosus or Death Magic.. I despise "All or Nothing" encounters)
> 
> ...




My main problem with my build is that it's very weak against spellcasters. Sure I can buy items that grant immunities against most effects, and her saves will be decent. But her SR is terrible for her ECL and I don't think the rules allows it to stack with magic items, so a cleric with Holy Word and a few boosts to Spell Level will kill her instantly (and it's not a "Death" effect so Deathward is no help even if there's a statted item somewhere that grants it.)
Also, without the Epic feat of Devastating Critical (and even with it most opponents will be immune to crits) her only major trick is Improved Grab and grapple. Freedom Of Action or any number of magic effects protect against that so the only way to make it work is by using an Antimagic Field.
I've played a few Epic spellcasters and I know just how powerful they are, Antimagic Field or Disjunction are pretty much the only ways to beat one. And Quickened scrolls are so very expensive.

-
The item rules certainly makes things easier, although it requires a lot of digging trough the books.


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## rangerjohn (May 3, 2011)

So what are the rest of us supposed to do in the anti-magic field?  Fight CR equal to our level without our abilities or items?

I was going to ask for help with my "gish" but it may now be a moot point.


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## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

Eh, why do you have to be inside the AMF? The radius is only 10ft. You could be attacking another enemy, or attacking our vulnerable grappled prey from outside the field (your weapons wouldn't count as magical but the rest of your equipment would).
Besides, I've been able to find a couple of ways to use the Antimagic Field, but nothing unlimited in use. It seems I could only use it a couple of times and I would thus have to save it for mages or other obvious glass cannons.

I still haven't figured out a way to beat the Holy Word spells, so my character is a bit of a glass cannon herself.


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## Shayuri (May 3, 2011)

I could give you a crafted Contingent Spell that detonates in reponse to a Holy Word. Even an antimagic field. I have one of those myself, contingent on being subject to a Disjunction. Normally an AMF is a death sentence for my character, but NOTHING is worse than Disjunction.

Nothing.

You could have a contingent Blasphemy, since that counters Holy Word...

Or, most easily, a Silence. Holy Word has the Sonic descriptor, I believe. A Silence will stop it cold.


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## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

Shayuri, I love you . Silence! That's a brilliant idea and I feel so stupid for not seeing it. She can have silence up permanently since she has telepathy and doesn't cast spells. And it would even be pretty useful against any spellcasters she's fighting. 

There are some other spells that can ruin her day, but since she can't be Banished (no planar travel possible in the setting) it's not that bad.


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## Vertexx69 (May 3, 2011)

@ nephyts - a lvl of crusader would give you access to the martial spirit stance that lets you heal yourself or an ally within 10ft for 2 with each hit. With 15-20 attacks a round, that a hellacious amount of healing.


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## Shayuri (May 3, 2011)

I think Banish/Dismissal will still work...planar travel is possible in the game. The GM has assured us that there's no real reason to visit other planes, but that they're there if we really super-duper want to go.

But you can easily fix your Banishability with those manacles that inflict Dimensional Anchor on whoever wears them. Just put them on, and cut the chain. Now you have stylish wristbands that keep you firmly in this plane. 

Alternatively, contingent Dimensional Anchor. That has the bonus of letting you teleport until it's set off.


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## rangerjohn (May 3, 2011)

Well could someone make a stab at a "gish" for me?  I just don't have access to the books the rest of you do.


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## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

Vertexx69 said:


> @ nephyts - a lvl of crusader would give you access to the martial spirit stance that lets you heal yourself or an ally within 10ft for 2 with each hit. With 15-20 attacks a round, that a hellacious amount of healing.




It would, but I would have to trade it for a level of Monk that gives me +11ish AC, Marshal which gives me and the entire team (with hirelings and all) +16 (or something like that) to strength, or Fighter which gives me two feats which take me closer to being able to kill anything without a massive Fort save and crit immunity with every third or fourth attack.
Still, I need some Healing so it's a good advice. Which book is it in? 

The Bodyfeeder (+3cost Expanded Psionics Handbook) does the same thing and more, but that's only for one weapon and I don't know if its allowed by the DM.



Shayuri said:


> I think Banish/Dismissal will still work...planar travel is possible in the game. The GM has assured us that there's no real reason to visit other planes, but that they're there if we really super-duper want to go.
> 
> But you can easily fix your Banishability with those manacles that inflict Dimensional Anchor on whoever wears them. Just put them on, and cut the chain. Now you have stylish wristbands that keep you firmly in this plane.
> 
> Alternatively, contingent Dimensional Anchor. That has the bonus of letting you teleport until it's set off.




Nice outside-the-box thinking  Especially with the manacles.


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## Nephtys (May 3, 2011)

rangerjohn said:


> Well could someone make a stab at a "gish" for me? I just don't have access to the books the rest of you do.




Some of the best "gishes" (that's fighter/mages, right?) are clerics. They have plenty of buffing spells that make them better fighters than most Fighters with plenty of support, offensive and defensive power and flexibility. With a Domain that grants you Shapeshange you'll be a terror on the battlefield. 
For a purer Fighter/Arcane caster you'll have access to more destructive spells, but it can be hard to get a good synergy that's better than either archetype on its own.

Not much concrete, I know, but others have a lot more routine than I do right now.


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## rangerjohn (May 3, 2011)

Yes, warrior/mage of some sort is what I meant.  As for cleric, I thought we had a druid covering that role.  I am aware of the power of clerics, I play one 90% of the time.


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## Wilphe (May 3, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Wilphe - If you plan on your followers being a Magic Item factory don't forget a couple things.
> A: Followers with character levels count as 2 lvls higher (So an 8th lvl Sorceror, Wizard, or Cleric would take up the slot of a 10th lvl follower).
> B: Item creation requires feats and XP, and you would have to run it all by the DM, figuring out how much XP each follower has.
> C: Followers are people too, and are going to want some reason/compensation for supplying you with cheap gear at the expenditure of their life force(XP) and time.




I'm not planning on it; more a case of, I'm going to have these feats for story reasons, what might I use them for?

A:
I had thought that there were class restrictions on Followers, but I cannot see anything to that effect in either the DMG or the SRD. If you can find me a source please do

Mind you, DMG also seems to explicitly state that you can have more than one cohort and I thought one was the limit.

C:
While I am not going to push Diplomacy, he will have mex ranks in it, Skill Focus and high CHA. So the DC to convert someone from HELPFUL to FANATIC should be achievable


Most of that is moot anyway, as Leadership feats are exactly as powerful as the DM lets them be and is not the part of the build that needs work.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What I am after is:
1) Is it going to better to take another 2 levels of Fighter to get Wpn Spec and an extra iterative attack

PrCs are out as they would all stop his Aura progression, and while could ask to adapt a Bard or Cleric PrC I don't want to creat a hassle

2) As low level wands are dirt cheep for an epic character, and the DCs look to be achievible via UMD - is that a viable option?


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## Wilphe (May 3, 2011)

Quarnabeet

Hobgoblin Ftr 2 / Marshall 27

S 18  + = +4
D 25  + 6 enchance = +10
C 25  +  = +7
I 18   +  = +4
W 15 +  = +2
C 30  + 6 enhance = +13

+5 inherent to everything from tomes
+7 to CHA from level increases

Base BAB 14/9/4 +5 Epic
Melee +4 Str   23/18/13/
Ranged +10 29/24/19

F 13 + 7 Con + 5 Epic +4 Resist = 29
R 5 +10 Dex + 5 Epic + 4 Resist = 24
W 10 + 2 Wis + 5 Epic 4 Resist = 21

AC: 10 +10 Dex + 4 Deflection + 8 Armour + 5 Nat = 37

Hit Points: 8+2d10+27d8 + 203

Bluff 33
Diplomacy 33 +2 Bluff +2 K/NR + 2 SM +3 SFocus = 42
K/ Architecture + Engineering 5
K/ History 5
K/ Geographry 5
K/ History 5
K/ Noblity and Royalty 5
Intimidate 24 +2 Bluff
Sense Motive 33
Spot  33

Got 14 more to spend I think

Epic Items:
Rod of Besiegment
Rod of Fortification
      Note to self: Nowhere does it say Siege Engines generated by these go away.
+7 Composite Longbow +4 STR
Ring of Adamant Law
      +4 Deflection +4 Resistance
       SR 25 v Chaotic Spells and Creatures
       Blocks possession and mental influence
       Chaotic Creatures to save v Will if hit in melee or Slow

Already consumed items:
6 x +5 tomes

Non-epic Items:

Order's Wrath  +5 Axiomatic Ghost Touch Longsword

Ring of Regeneration, Freedom of Movement, Telekinesis, MindShielding, Sustenance and Feather Fall.
          Which I think is 281 550 if I understand the rules for combining

Amulet of Natural Armour +5
Bag of Holding T IV
Bottle of Air
Carpet of Flying (Going for a vaugely Arabic/Turkich theme wth his background)
Cloak of Charisma +6
Daern's Instant Fortress
Decanter of Endless Water
Dust of Dryness
Dust of Tracelessness x 4
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Hat of Disguise
Hewards Handy Haversack
Quiver of Elhonna

Bracers of Armour +8 & Greater Archery  101,500?


Expendable items:
8 Wands of Vigor CL 1
2 Wands of CLW  CL 1
Wand of Stoneskin
Wand of Restoration
Wand of Neutralise Poison

Ammunition:
100 arrows each of
+1 Human Bane
+1 Aberration Bane
+1 Evil Outsider Bane
+1 Dragon Bane
+1 Chaotic Outsider Bane



3 990 775 total ATM

Feats:
Skill Focu Diplomacy - Class
Leadership
Force of Personality (might ditch this as Ring of Adamant Law makes it unecessary)
Jack of All Trades
Improved Initative (Someone want to explain Knowledge Devotion please as that sounds a thematic fit?)
Improved Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
EWP: Musket (Story reasons, that's not his weapon)

Normal Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot

Epic Feats:
Superior Initative or Multiaura
Epic Leader
Legendry Commander
Widen Aura
Lasting Aura



Grant Move Action 7/day
Major Aura +5


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## Shayuri (May 3, 2011)

1) Weapon Specialization is just +2 damage per hit, with the relevant weapon. It doesn't suck, but I dunno if it's worth a 2 level dip all by itself. The extra iterative is likewise nice, but unless your to-hit bonus is very high, you'll probably only be hitting with the first couple of attacks anyway.

2) UMD with high Charisma and even just a CC rank or two is viable, sure...just be sure you're aware of the limitations of the stuff you're using. Wands are terrific for low spell level buffs, for example. I went this route with Omega, in fact. A simple 1st level spell (at caster level 15 for maxed effect) gives him a juicy +5 to hit for 15 rounds per charge. Very nice against critters with high Touch AC's. 

What you'll find though is that most items are only useful for buffing and noncombat spells. This is because they're limited to Caster Level 20 without the Epic Feats, and SR tends to make CL20 spells very unhappy. It's also because most items have inherently low save DC's which cannot be increased easily.

But if you identify a hole in your character's defenses, a wand or scroll can be a useful thing to have on hand...


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## Wilphe (May 3, 2011)

Well, at the moment he is doing 1d8+11; with whatever bonuses you get from the arrow.

+7 Composite Long Bow with +4 STR.

Bane weapon for whatever he is fighing will add +2d6 to that, and +2 arrows are not that expensive

At the moment the wand inventory looks like:
Vigor
CLW
Though the former will take ages in these PCs and either will be drained dry on probably one PC

Buffing:
Stoneskin
Shield

I do not know if Animal Series (Bull's,Bear's, Fox's) will be worthwhile at this level of play; nor if things like Mirror Image and Invisibility will be worth it given that the opposition probably has ways of neutralising them very easily


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## Jemal (May 4, 2011)

Allright first up, I have something I have to say to the thread:
I may not be the DM, but the thing I absolutely despise about Epic is when people turn it into an All-or-Nothing Rock-Paper-Scissors game.  
Disjunction
Holy Word
Antimagic Field
Silence
Diplomacy(sigh)
Banish/Dismiss
Death Spells
"Save-Or" effects.
Immunities

It's my beliefe that things like this make the game LESS fun via their inclusion, because they completely negate whole encounters or character concepts.  
DM: "OK, so the Epic elder fire elemental comes at you"  
Player: "Stand back guys, I'm immune to fire and this guys physical can't beat my DR... NEXT"
DM: "ER.. ok.. The Elder titan comes around a corner and.."
Player: "I cast Disjunction to take out his defenses followed by a quicken deathspell. NEXT"
DM: "A magical anvil falls on you.  You die."
Player: "Actually, my antimagic field stops the magic, and the falling anvil only deals a hundred damage. NEXT."
DM: "Your DM quits."
Player: "Actually, I have a contingent spell that..."


Now I like making an uber-powerful, twinked character as much as the next guy(Actually studies have shown that I like it more than most, but anyways..), but you'll note that the suggestions I give and the characters I make avoid things like these.  It's far too easy to turn Epic into a case of "Initiative roll=win".  If you want to keep the game fun, then both the players and the DM need to forge an air of what we like to call "Mutually Assured Disjunction"... wherin the DM won't use DEATH SPELL/DISJOIN/Etc on you unless you do it first or plan on doing it.

Hell, I could've easily made a caster who's Nigh-Indestructible due to dozens of CL 40+ Buffs, and could walk around slaughtering epic dragons... But the instant he gets disjoined, he's just another human and he dies b/c he put all his eggs into the magical buffs.  The problem with that is that it's an 'all or nothing' concept.  If the opponent doesn't have Disjunction, I win.  If he does and he manages to get it cast, He wins. 
Heck, I could make that one even more powerful by loading it down with Contingent Re-buffs and Tenacious Magic, but how is that fun for anybody other than the person playing "GOD"?


I also have some specific posts I wanted to respond to, but wanted to get this said first.

*EDIT: Also if you're worried about Badguys using InstantDeath on you, then I have one thing to say : If the DM WANTS your character to die, he will find a way. Nothing you buy/cast will stop him, he's the DM and it's his world.   And if he doesn't actively WANT you dead(Which is the more likely scenario), then why would he send an encounter which has a 100% (Or near) kill factor?  Things that CAN kill you are required, otherwise there's no challenge, but do you really expect your DM to be using CL-Buffed Holy words and Disjunction-Death spell combos?


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## Shayuri (May 4, 2011)

Yeah, low level healings are probably a waste. You'll get better value out of a higher level wand...or even a staff. Staff of Healing isn't too bad, and staves are nice because they scale with your CL and your casting attribute.

Stoneskin is a good buy, though if you expect to be using it a LOT, check out the epic ring that basically gives you constant Stoneskin. More expensive than a wand, but not outrageously so.

Shield is an excellent choice if you don't have one! Very scaleable, and it blocks an irritating mouse spell.

Animal buffs are normally superseded by items, because they give enhancement bonuses just like the items do. 

Mirror Image is a big maybe. Blindsight defeats it. Tremorsense defeats it. True Sight defeats it. Not ALL monsters have those things, but a significant number of things do.

Invisisbility is much the same as Mirror Image, but probably better, if only because you'll SOMEtimes be interacting with folks who aren't the same level as you, and it gives you some noncombat options. 

Jemal, I think it's fair for a player to recognize that his concept has a giant smoking "Kill Me Like This" sign on his back, and to prepare for it. Holy Word IS death on wheels for an Outsider of the Evil persuasion, and there's only a few ways to stop it. Given that this Marilith has lived this long, it's reasonable to assume she probably knows how to survive a Holy Word.


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## Nephtys (May 4, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Of course I'm paranoid, Everyone's Trying to Kill me!






----

I've noticed something odd about the Marilith. Their length from head to tail is 20ft, but their stated weight is 4000 lbs. That's 200 lbs/foot! And the art indicates the Marilith is slim, both her humanoid and serpent parts. Since demons are made of flesh and not lead or uranium that doesn't make sense. A 6ft human with the same BMI would weigh 1200 lbs and they wouldn't exactly look slim. 
I think a weight of 700-1000 lbs would be more realistic, and still account for natural armour, heavy bones or whatnot.
DM, what do you think?


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## Jemal (May 4, 2011)

Neph - You worry far too much about tryin to be immune to everything.
Relax and worry more about having FUN.  That's how you create a good epic character.  Don't think about all the thousand different ways you could Win or Loose with a single action, it's counterproductive to good storytelling, which is what Epic Campaigns are all about - An Epic Story.

RangerJohn - If you want a Fighter-mage, my suggestions would be to include any/all of the following:
Fighter.  Sorc.  Monk(you likely won't be wearing armour, and monk is awesome.  Every Adventurer should have the ability to punch someone in the face without provoking an AoO). Eldritch Knight.
And from Complete Mage, my favourite Fighter-Mage class: Abjurant Champion.

And now for some quotes



> But you can easily fix your Banishability with those manacles that inflict Dimensional Anchor on whoever wears them. Just put them on, and cut the chain. Now you have stylish wristbands that keep you firmly in this plane.



While I disagree that it's required, there are two things I wanted to say.
Mechanically, cutting the chain would destroy them b/c it's part of the magical Item.
Thematically, I doubt most DM's would have a problem with doing so and just calling them 'bracers'




> I'm not planning on it; more a case of, I'm going to have these feats for story reasons, what might I use them for?



I Personally disagree with taking feats ONLY for backstory purposes.  99% of the time the same function and fluff can be gained simply with good storytelling.  Especially in a setting like this where the whole "Dead for thousands of years" thing is a VERY good way of explaining why you USED to be an epic leader of men but don't have any followers with you know... They've all been dead for millenia.



> A:
> I had thought that there were class restrictions on Followers, but I cannot see anything to that effect in either the DMG or the SRD. If you can find me a source please do




*Paraphrased from the ELH*
 Optional rule: Exceptional followers
Normally You can only attract members of the Warrior, Expert, or Commoner classes.  Using this optional rule, Adept or Aristocrats count as followers two levels higher, any follwer with even a single level in a PC class counts as THREE levels higher, and a follower with any levels in a prestige class counts as FIVE levels higher.
/snip
It's under the Epic Leadership Section, and apparently I was underquoting originally.  Your tenth lvl followers could be 7th lvl PC classes or 5th level with a PRC(If you could find any for which they meet the Requirements by then)


> Mind you, DMG also seems to explicitly state that you can have more than one cohort and I thought one was the limit.



The references to Multiples are there so you can REPLACE a cohort who has died or otherwise left your services.  I don't think you'll find many who read it as saying you can have any number of cohorts (And if they do, they're wrong. )


> C:
> While I am not going to push Diplomacy, he will have mex ranks in it, Skill Focus and high CHA. So the DC to convert someone from HELPFUL to FANATIC should be achievable



 Not.  Even.  Saying. It.



> What I am after is:
> 1) Is it going to better to take another 2 levels of Fighter to get Wpn Spec and an extra iterative attack



If you're going to be making attacks, Extra BAB is always useful, though as Shayuri pointed out, Weapon Spec isn't all that impressive.. Although it's still a USEFUL feat, and becomes more useful the more attacks you can make in a round.


> PrCs are out as they would all stop his Aura progression, and while could ask to adapt a Bard or Cleric PrC I don't want to creat a hassle



Don't know much about the auras but why would a PrC stop his progression if a base class such as Fighter wouldn't?  Do Auras specifically state that they progress with all base classes but not PrC's?


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## Vertexx69 (May 4, 2011)

Nephtys said:


> Still, I need some Healing so it's good advice. Which book is it in?



That would be the book of nine swords A.K.A. the tome of battle. You can also just get a power and the stance for 2 feats. Your initiator lvl for any power would be half your HD. So if you took the Crusader Strike power with the martial study feat, so if you hit with the power, you or an ally would heal 1d8+10 at 20HD.


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## Jemal (May 4, 2011)

Neph - Don't forget that size increase and Mass increase are not on a one to one scale.  Mass jumps faster.
Look at halflings - An average 3' halfling weighs about 34 pounds.  If you were to just double that you'd get a 6' tall person weight 68 pounds... Rediculously underweight.  So the weight is multiplied by FOUR instead of just two, giving you 6' tall 136 pounds - A kinda skinny tall guy, but not rediculous.
This concept is shown again and again in spells that alter size (Enlarge/reduce person, Righteous might, Giant Size)

Now take into account that Mariliths aren't just 'big people', they're demonic half-snake women with 6 arms who are INCREDIBLY built (Natural 28 str/18 Con).  They're masses of muscle, despite the fact that they may not look it.


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## Nephtys (May 4, 2011)

I am having fun, I just want to keep my character alive so I can have even more fun when the game starts. I know it seems like I'm munchkining, but that's just because I'm so obvious posting about it. It's those who don't need to ask questions we should worry about, if we should bother worrying at all. I won't unbalance the game, I'm simply not skilled enough.
The good thing about fighter characters is that they pretty much play themselves. Once the game starts I'll be able to concentrate on the RP. For now I mainly want something that will work, be useful and stay alive. That's not to say I'm not working on a kick-ass backstory, mind you.


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## Nephtys (May 4, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Neph - Don't forget that size increase and Mass increase are not on a one to one scale. Mass jumps faster.
> Look at halflings - An average 3' halfling weighs about 34 pounds. If you were to just double that you'd get a 6' tall person weight 68 pounds... Rediculously underweight. So the weight is multiplied by FOUR instead of just two, giving you 6' tall 136 pounds - A kinda skinny tall guy, but not rediculous.
> This concept is shown again and again in spells that alter size (Enlarge/reduce person, Righteous might, Giant Size)
> 
> Now take into account that Mariliths aren't just 'big people', they're demonic half-snake women with 6 arms who are INCREDIBLY built (Natural 28 str/18 Con). They're masses of muscle, despite the fact that they may not look it.




Edit: And if we multiply 136 by four we get 544, which seems to fit pretty good. Multiply it with 8 and it's 1088, which is not far from what I suggested though a bit on the heavy side.

Though perhaps it's a bit silly to discuss realism. If we consider the existance of demons realistic why should their weight be what breaks our suspension of disbelief? 
However, the added length of a marilith is mostly snake and snakes are not known for their girth. The weight system in DnD has always been a bit off..... 
--
Besides, her weight makes it harder for me to find an appropriate mount to summon, which I need for the added move action which will let her use a full attack against a mobile enemy.


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## Shayuri (May 4, 2011)

A marilith...with a mount?

*boggle*

...

*still boggling*

Hee hee.

Well, good luck with that. 

Though I will say this with respect to mounts and followers...given the premise of the game, it makes sense we wouldn't start with things like this. Familiars, even animal companions, are a bit more of an intimate connection, and I could see something like that coming back with us...but it seems like we'd need to procure followers, cohorts and mounts once the game started.

Then again, I guess the same argument could apply to our possessions too. Hm. Oh well.


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## Jemal (May 4, 2011)

... You're getting a mount for a 20 foot long snake-demon lady?
Hmm, well even though I think thats silly, lets figure out the math..
4000 pound Large creature.
The mount would have to be huge (One size category above the rider), and most mounts are quadrupeds.. So normal carrying capacity would be X6(Huge Quadruped), meaning for 4000 pounds to be a light load, it would require a Strength score of 32 (Light load: 4,152)
So if the DM doesn't decide to lower the weight, you would require a Huge Quadruped with 32 Strength for a mount.

If your weight were halved to 2000, you would require a huge quadruped with a strength of 27(Light load: 2076).
At 1200 pounds (Your suggestion, though I think it's rediculously underweight.  ) your mount would need a strength of 23.

Not sure what you were planning on 'summoning' as a mount, but a quick gander through the MM got me the following creatures that fit your criterea (Huge quadruped)
Behir: Str 26(Technically not a quadruped though, more of a centipede)
Bulette: Str 27
Retriever: Str 31
Dinos: Elasmosaurus(Str 26), Triceratops(Str30), 
Hydra: Str 23 
Cauchemar Nightmare: Str 31 
Giant Crocodile: Str 27
Elephant: Str 30
Various Dragons and Huge Insects

Alternatively a Gargantuan creature such as Roc, Purple Worm, or older dragons could carry you at any of the listed weights with ease.

My biggest question is how you're planning on long-term summoning and control of one of these creatures as a mount..

**
Also, PLEASE delete that picture, I ask as a personal favour, I can't even scroll past it to read posts without becoming naseous.  Normally I have no problem with overweight people, but that picture is revolting, and I fail to see how it in any way helps the discussion.


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## Nephtys (May 4, 2011)

She can Use Magic Item to cast Summon Monster IX from a scroll. Colossal Fiendish Spider ftw . It can already carry much more than her 4000 lbs, so that's not an issue. It will obey her commands and she has the stat bonuses to be able to ride it. But I want to be able to use something less over the top.

Jemal, it's done. But just imagine, at 4000 lbs she should be looking like that.


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## Jemal (May 4, 2011)

> I am having fun, I just want to keep my character alive so I can have even more fun when the game starts. I know it seems like I'm munchkining, but that's just because I'm so obvious posting about it. It's those who don't need to ask questions we should worry about, if we should bother worrying at all. I won't unbalance the game, I'm simply not skilled enough.
> The good thing about fighter characters is that they pretty much play themselves. Once the game starts I'll be able to concentrate on the RP. For now I mainly want something that will work, be useful and stay alive. That's not to say I'm not working on a kick-ass backstory, mind you.




I'm not worried about you munchkining or ruining the game, I'm just saying that It's my belief that it's pretty pointless, and leads to a way of thinking that tends to turn epic games into all-or-nothing.  As I stated previously, if the DM wants you dead, you're dead.  If he doesn't, he's not going to use things that have a very specific "If you don't have the counter to this ability you're dead".
EXAMPLE: 
Blasphemy CL 40 would kill EVERY one of us who isn't evil (I don't think anybody's evil aligned, just playing 'evil creatures who're morally ambiguous'.).  The casters SR check would likely be 50+ (None of us are going to have that SR).  So anybody who's not specifically designed to be immune to it would be dead.
WHY would he do that?  I don't think he would, and if any DM DID do something like that, I would gladly leave the campaign for one where the DM cares more about telling the story than killing the PC's.


Also, as a spellcaster I always use my companions as a 'testing board' for how effective my spells are going to be, making the assumption that the opponents will be about on par with the PC's.
Under that assumption, if my party is all covered in immunities, I must assume that the badguys will be too, rendering much of my repertoire useless and forcing me into that same "find the one spell that instakills your opponent that he's not immune to" thinking.
If I wanted to play like that, I'd just mords + Twinned Intensified Force Orb everything to death, at which point why make the rest of the character?  Everything beyond Maxing out that one trick is just fluff..  Might as well just be playing a statless/Diceless roleplaying system and go by the "no god moding" rule.  Now granted, those can be fun, but the thing I like about Epic D&D is that you can do so much with it yet you still have the stats to back it up.


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## Jemal (May 4, 2011)

Neph, I must disagree about the fatness.  (Although at this point the argument is kinda moot as it's the DM's call, I'm just sharing my opinion, pls don't take it as an offense, I just like beating dead horses)
Speaking of horses.. Lets take a look at them.
clydesdale - 6 feet tall, 8-9 feet long, 2000 pounds
Marilith - 9 feet tall, 20 feet long, 4000 pounds.

Clydesdales are not FAT, they're loaded with muscles.  The marilith is Bigger than a Clyde, and arguably even more butch (Being able to bench press over two tonnes!).
True you could point out that she's not built in the same shape as a horse (she's more long than tall wile the horse is square), but then I point out that most of the horses size is taken up by its legs, which account for very little of its mass.  Lets look at just the torso of the horse.  It's about 6' long, 3'X2', and weighs say 1800(I can't see its legs/head weighing much more than 200 pounds).. That's 36 cubic feet of muscle, weiging in at 50 pounds per cubic foot.
The Marilith, even if you just assume her as 20' long, 3X2 wide, ignoring arms/head (Which I think is an underestimation), she would have 120 cubic feet.  Now, assuming she's built HALF as solidly as that horse, that gives us 25 pounds per cubic foot, or 3000 pounds.  And that's on the Low end of what I think is an underestimation of her size.


In essence what I'm getting at is that I think you're viewing her as a human with a snake tail, wheras I'm looking at her as a 9' tall butch demon whos lower half is a 20' long scaley coil of muscles.



> She can Use Magic Item to cast Summon Monster IX from a scroll. Colossal Fiendish Spider ftw . It can already carry much more than her 4000 lbs, so that's not an issue. It will obey her commands and she has the stat bonuses to be able to ride it.



You also realize that it would only last for 17 rounds, right?  It's something that you'd have to spend the first standard action of every combat doing, in order to gain a move action...
And then there's the question of whether or not snake lady can even 'sit/mount' the thing.


> But I want to be able to use something less over the top.



Probably a good idea, I just had an amusing image of a _Marilith_ riding into combat on a _Fiendish spider_ shouting "I'M NOT EVIL I SWEAR!!"


I still say if you're looking for mobility, Belt of battle + Quicken SLA: Teleport make more sense and are just as(If not more) effective.


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## Nephtys (May 4, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Neph, I must disagree about the fatness. (Although at this point the argument is kinda moot as it's the DM's call, I'm just sharing my opinion, pls don't take it as an offense, I just like beating dead horses)




Me too, and no offense taken. I wouldn't be posting like this unless I enjoyed the discussion, and the outcome is not really that big a deal. The Belt of Battle is in, it's just nice to have a backup.


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## Jemal (May 4, 2011)

Excellent   I love these type of discussions.. Well, not specifically "how fat is this creature", but I think you get the drift.


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## Vertexx69 (May 4, 2011)

@ nephyts - Think of it from the serpent side. The biggest anacondas only have a ten inch diameter and weigh in at the thousand pound mark. Think of it at the 24 inch diameter mark for 17 feet of lower body and there you go.

@ Jemal - I put the knowledge DCs throughout my background (10-40), then lined them them up by DC low to high. Then I added the d20s and reordered them low to high again which threw my original order out the window.


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## Wilphe (May 4, 2011)

Jemal said:


> I Personally disagree with taking feats ONLY for backstory purposes.  99% of the time the same function and fluff can be gained simply with good storytelling.  Especially in a setting like this where the whole "Dead for thousands of years" thing is a VERY good way of explaining why you USED to be an epic leader of men but don't have any followers with you know... They've all been dead for millenia.




If he had them while he was alive the first time around then he has them now.



> *Paraphrased from the ELH*
> Optional rule: Exceptional followers
> Normally You can only attract members of the Warrior, Expert, or Commoner classes.  Using this optional rule, Adept or Aristocrats count as followers two levels higher, any follwer with even a single level in a PC class counts as THREE levels higher, and a follower with any levels in a prestige class counts as FIVE levels higher.
> /snip
> It's under the Epic Leadership Section, and apparently I was underquoting originally.  Your tenth lvl followers could be 7th lvl PC classes or 5th level with a PRC(If you could find any for which they meet the Requirements by then)




Thanks.



> If you're going to be making attacks, Extra BAB is always useful, though as Shayuri pointed out, Weapon Spec isn't all that impressive.. Although it's still a USEFUL feat, and becomes more useful the more attacks you can make in a round.




When his base damage is so low (1d8+11 + maybe 2d6)
+2 to that is proportionatly better than for someone doing power attack in melee
Not that that contribution is ever going to be more than marginal anyway



> Don't know much about the auras but why would a PrC stop his progression if a base class such as Fighter wouldn't?  Do Auras specifically state that they progress with all base classes but not PrC's?



No, Fighter is a two level or maybe 4 level dip to get feats and BAB.

Auras only advance in the Marshall class itself so far as I know.

There are plenty of PrCs that provide spellcasting advancement, there are some which will provide Invocation advancement, there are a couple that stack with Bardic class features (Knowledge, Music). There are none that that say something like "+1 level of Marshall Aura"


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 4, 2011)

Ok, first order of business. SHAME ON ME! When things were going a ta slow and relaxed pace I took a few days off to relax and plan the start of this thing. Now look how far behind I've gotten .

Second order of business. 

SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the love of all that is holy I just spent an hour sorting through PAGES of discussion about power gaming and FAT CHICKS!!!! The hell people! THE HELL!!!!!

Moving on. 

Mord's Disjunction and all holy word style spells are hereby being banned in this campaign. I had no intention of using any of then in the first place. I'm just sick of everyone talking about them. Besides, its prevents MAD (mutually assured disjunction) in case any PCs really wanted to mess around in this area. I was gonna leave the Word spells in case anybody wanted to use them in a reasonable sense, but I'm sick of reading about them now. That ship has sailed.

Btw, antimagic, death spells, and save or are all still in, so protect yourself as you see fit. (insert evil laugh here)

Wilphie: Step 1: No Leadership. You can take it as a prereq, but this isn't a leadership style game. 

Step 2: You said I didn't answer your query about the LA buyoff. Thats because Vertexx answered for you. He pointed out I don't allow Unearthed Arcana. If you want to see me say it myself, again, here you are. I don't allow Unearthed Arcana.

ghostcat: You're background stuff looks good, but I'm gonna get you to make 1 change. You're knowledge geography doesn't really fit. After all geography isn't exactly a study of legends. In that regard I'd like you to shift it over to knowledge history. I wouldn't mind so much, but the checks you have associated with it aren't about landmarks or places as knowledge geography would suggest, but are about you. 

Ummm... Ok I've honestly lost my train of thought on this one. I' m not going back through that mess again, so anybody with unanswered game relevant question please repost them. Too much advice, too much argument, too much FREAKING FAT CHICK DISCUSSION!!!!! Who cares if you're fat! Have you seen some of the hideous monsters in these books. My eyes they burn.... I mean.... Goosfraba. Gooosfraaba. Ok, I'm fine now.

On that note, Nephtys you're weight is as much as it says it is. You picked it, thats what you are. It was a horse. Deal with it .

Lastly, I need volunteers to be in the first starting party. I want to get this show on the road.


----------



## Jemal (May 4, 2011)

Well, my character's ready to go save three things
A: I need to post my spell list.
B: Still waiting on your responses re: The book
C: Wondering whether it's even worth working up the Knowledge DC's on my character since she's the most recent legend.  Meh, I'll go roll'em up anyways, I guess NPC's might wanna know about me.

OK, scratch C.

Aside from that, I'm ready and more than willing to get into the first party.\


On that note, are we going to be doing a Rogue's Gallery thread so there's easy-access to all the character sheets?


----------



## Nephtys (May 4, 2011)

Sorry, guess I got a bit carried away . I'll try to finish my character by today, but it will probably be done tomorrow.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 4, 2011)

Jemal: When I said repost, I didn't mean remind me you had unanswered questions, I meant rewrite them so I don't have to go digging for them again.


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## rangerjohn (May 4, 2011)

Sorry, guess I'll have to bow out.  I only have access to the SRD, and that won't compete at this level.


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## Nephtys (May 4, 2011)

rangerjohn said:


> Sorry, guess I'll have to bow out. I only have access to the SRD, and that won't compete at this level.




I have a few books, but 95% of what I'm using is from the SRD. Other sources are good for one or two details per book, but the SRD is a great resource. If you get started on the basic structure of your build I'm sure some of us can help you fill it out to your satisfaction.


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## rangerjohn (May 4, 2011)

The basic structure of my build is a gish.  A warrior who uses magic to suplement his battle prowess.  It's the details that are important at this level.
If DS has to design encounters at the level of powergaming your characters are at, I need to be at that level to survive.  I need to know what is important to hit?  spell penetration? something else I'm not aware of?  As for background the reason he is famous is he is the founder of a school.  Something akin to a bladedancer.  He may also may have been king, but the thing he is most famous for is his art.


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## Nephtys (May 4, 2011)

3.5e Optimized Character Builds - D&D Wiki

There are some good ideas on this site. They are not 30 level builds, so hardly optimized for you but a good starting point or at least some inspiration.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868042/Character_Build_Spotlight:_Gish

This thread looks interesting.


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## Vertexx69 (May 4, 2011)

I just have a bit more cash to wade though before I post up my skills and gear updates, but aside from that Hanshu is just about ready.


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## rangerjohn (May 4, 2011)

I've looked at those already.  They are three problems with them.  One I have yet to find a lowly elf build there, two you are right they are not 30th level, three they reference material outside the SRD.


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## Wilphe (May 4, 2011)

rangerjohn said:


> Sorry, guess I'll have to bow out.  I only have access to the SRD, and that won't compete at this level.




You can join me in Epic Special Ed...



I think however I will knock Quarnabeet on the head; he is not developing into anything actually useful and there is a time I want to tell his story but this is not it.

I'll play about with some else, see what else there is in the group.


Maybe a legendary progenitor archetype:

Bob the Epic 3rd level Fighter

The very first ever Half Orc Paladin

The very first ever Orc Paladin

The very first ever dualwielding good drow ranger with an animal companion in a magical knick-knack.


Ok, maybe not that last one


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## Jemal (May 4, 2011)

Well, I'd originally posted 
[sblock=Book]
I was hoping to make the book a big, epic item much like the rod, to show its significance and importance, but I couldn't really find any magical books that aren't artifacts. So, instead I've just taken some liberties with having it contain a lot of information. Essentially most of the Knowledges Kayla has are from reading the songs in the book (Many of which detail past, and maybe even future events). I also added the 'manual/tomes' of Inherent stat bonuses to it as a flavour thing. Any other ideas? (Also feel free to use it as a plot device to pass along any info/insight you wish, I make a very good DM Shill. )
[/sblock]

But while I was looking for it I noticed that you had responded 


> Jemal: I'll have to think on that tome. I'll get back to you but so far what you have seems good.



So I'm guessing that means it's good as is?


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## Albedo (May 4, 2011)

You know rangerjohn, I can create a character using only core d&d at level 20 who has an AC over 100. And I can create a character at the level who can hit that as well. Nothing about core d&d is underpowered.


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## rangerjohn (May 5, 2011)

How?  With a monster race?   20 BAB +5 weapon +17 strength +1 WF +6 Divine Focus = d20 +51.  What am I missing?

I know these can all go higher with epic, but you said level 20.


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## Nephtys (May 5, 2011)

I have some difficulty assigning skillpoints, it seems I just have too many of them. Do I have to spend all my skillpoints each level or can I save some to use when I change class?
Also, I saw some of you posting die rolls earlier. Where did you use roll those?



rangerjohn said:


> How? With a monster race? 20 BAB +5 weapon +17 strength +1 WF +6 Divine Focus = d20 +51. What am I missing?
> 
> I know these can all go higher with epic, but you said level 20.




Touch attacks.

--


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## Albedo (May 5, 2011)

Ok, well you basically have 3 options when it comes to hitting your best at 20th level.

Option the first is ironically, optional. It is something you and the dm have to workout the specifics on. Simply speaking, its the paragon and psuedonatural templates. While these have no standard LA, as long as the agreed upon LA is 18 or under you're pretty much good to go. This is the fun option, and is in no way shape or form designed for serious or competitive gaming.

Option the second is the tricky way. This is to negate portions of your opponents AC, rendering it to a much more manageable figure. Flat-Footed touch ACs are always gonna be you're best shot, especially if you lose em their dex from sources other than flat-footed to get around uncanny dodge. Arcane Trickster is my favorite on this line.

The last is the standard, horrible, cleche truth about d&d. Spellcasters win. With a successful build combining every attack buff in the phb, followed by a simple touch of the secret ingredient, and you are a wrecking machine. Whats the secret ingredient you ask? Only one of d&ds most powerful spells, SHAPECHANGE. Using shapechange can grant you a str or dex score considerably higher than you ever thought possible. Add on a bit of True Strike/Moment of prescience Icing, and package it with the previous method of ignoring aspects of your opponent's AC, and you might just forget that there was an attack roll step in the first place.


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## Jemal (May 5, 2011)

Nephtys - The Dice Roller is at the bottom of your post after you post it (IT's like an edit function).  It's a secure dice roller that once you roll, is added to the post permanently, and you can't change it.
*Also, if you click the "Save and add more* button, yes it does save them until you hit ROLL, but It doesn't always show the list of what you've got saved on the right like it should, so don't worry that it's not saving them*

Ranger - I think Albedo allready answered most of your question.  Buffs are one way of improving your attack, the other way is situational - Finding ways to get their Flat footed and/or Touch ACs.
Core only, the easiest way is an Arcane trickster with a Brilliant Energy weapon.  Your opponents will gain Luck, Monk, and Deflection bonuses and that's it.  At 20 core, the best THAT AC will be is ~30=-40 for a fullout AC Twinked monk-build.

As far as GETTING AC high with core, thats also not too dificult.  Heck, lets see what we can do without templates OR spellcasting... WITH A KOBOLD!! MUAHAHA

[sblock=Example NONCASTING Core AC build]

Kobold Monk 2/Fighter8/Duelist 10
Dexterity 34 (18 base + 6 enhancement + 3 lvl + 5 inherent + 2 racial)
Wisdom 30 (18 base + 6 enhancement + 1 lvl + 5 inherent)
Intelligence 30 (18 base + 6 enhancement + 1 lvl + 5 inherent)

Feats(6): Weapon Finesse, Improved Natural Armour X5(Monsters Manual)

Fighter Bonus Feats(5): Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, 2-weapon fighting, 2-weapon defense, mobility

Items: 
+6 dex/wisdom/intelligence enhancers
+5 books: Dix, wis, int
Bracers of armour +8
Ring of protection +5
Amulet of natural armour +5
+5 defending weapon

Total AC: 10 base + 1 size + 12 dex + 10 int + 10 wisdom + 8 armour + 11 natural armour + 5 deflection +5 defending weapon + 5 Expertise 
+ 13 Fighting Defensively + 2 shield +1 Dodge=93
FF: 45
Touch: 72
FFTouch: 26

SO, total fighting defensively AC of 93 vs single opponent (97 vs AoO).  

I worked this up in about 20 minutes... it's not complete, but it's just to show that it's not impossible.... I mean this is using 
JUST the core 3 printed books and no spellcasting, and I'm sure others could point out things I've missed.

NOW, using this guy as a Sendoff for trying to hit him..
His AC is insane for 20th level, but his Flat-footed touch AC is only 26... EASILY hitable by a lvl 20 fighter type.  All you gotta do is catch him with his guard down.  Most opponents have a way around their 'super-powers'.  You just gotta find their kryptonite.[/sblock]

ON another note, the reason you won't find many Elf Builds is b/c most people not using Level Adjustment races use Human base for the bonus feat, or if they do use a base race that gives them the proper stat bonus, then Halfling is usually more appealing than elf from a Mechanics point of view when doing the same job.
  That doesn't mean you cant MODIFY builds to make them elves.  

OR we could do what I did with Ghostcat.  You post up your concept/first draft/skeleton build/whatever, and We'll offer suggestions.


And finally, Dharuhk - So I.. er.. Fudged up.. I was going through my character before work today just doing a last final touch up, and I noticed that I'd completely messed up my spellcasting (I had been adding my Lyric Thaumaturge levels to my Wujen casting, but I just noticed that they specifically state they can only be added to BARD)... So that changed how my spellcasting worked, and it may take me a little longer to get my spell list fixed up...
Sorry   I still would like to be in the starting party, however.  I can guarantee I'll have it up before I cast anything.


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## Vertexx69 (May 5, 2011)

Ok I think Hanshu is ready to go now (Post 63 on pg 5). I think giving up a +1 to hit +2 to dmg was totally worth the 440k of extra toys I got for it  (pesky epic lvl item costs).


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## ghostcat (May 5, 2011)

[MENTION=6668704]Dharuhk Svahre[/MENTION]. My character was ready but then jemal wrote his tome and it was back to the drawing board. Hopefully I'll have an updated character by tomorrow.

Your comments on Knowledge checks noted. I though you wanted things other than Knowledge (History).

[MENTION=26918]JAM[/MENTION]el. I'm not ignoring your comments and hope to have a detailed response up later today.

[MENTION=2469]rangerjohn[/MENTION]. I'm a bit nervous about this game as well. As I am not really into character optimisation. But I'm willing to give it a go and see if a sub-optimal character can survive. Only downside is generating Epic characters takes a serious amount of time. That said I think I have already got a good return, just in learning how things fit together.


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## Nephtys (May 5, 2011)

Here she is, nearly completed.
--​ 
Shahaza​ 
[sblock=Background]

Part 1 or 2

She stood upon the broken plane of Avernus, surveying a field of carnage. Endless rows of fiends and mortals surged forth beneath her, crashing into her enemies. Expendable. They would die killing diabolic shock troops who were themselves expendable to their master, the Lady Zariel of the First. Somewhere beyond those lines her true enemy hid, cloaked in magic. And killing her would not only win the battle but this entire stage of the endless Blood War. Unlikely as that would be, her schemes had made it a possibility. Diplomacy could someimes win greater victories than any battle.
But this battle was more than a distractrion, her enemies had important resources here in the Golden Forges of Kagat and looting them would take her closer to victory. The Diabolic line rolled back, putting her vanguard in the beginning of a bulge that would surely turn into an encirclement. She sneered. Her opposing general thought her a fool, and he could go on thinking that for a while longer. The loss of a few thousand Dretches, Manes, Rutterkin and Mortals would weaken her less than overconfidence would weaken the Baatezu. Devils were predictable when you understood their way of thinking. They would crush her vanguard, and were surely already moving up hidden troops to attack her flanks and rear. When she moved to protect her flanks they would commit their fliers and then their elite reserves. She shook her head. Her flanks would hold longer than their apparent strength would indicate, her center was unassailable (unless her opponent had the mind of a Demon), and her back protected by a few unpleasant surprises. Her opponent thought that he had chosen the site of this battle. He was mistaken.
They moved sooner than she had expected. So much the better. Fighting a Demonic army on the defensive must have unnerved them. Before the jaws of the enemies trap closed on a near third of her shock troops she felt the report of Asenavi the Merciful, her Captain of the Left. She was under heavy attack by a sizeable force of Hamatula and Barbazu, joined by a company of Osyluth and an elite core of Cornugons. It was a force designed to cut trough the corps of Babau, Bar Igura and Hezrou it attacked and in time it would. Even the skill of her officers could only delay the end. But that would have to be enough. A brief command sent a fraction of her reserves to their aid. That, and the strength of the demonic resistance would convince the enemy general that she had committed a major portion of her strength there. That and - silence. 
So, her enemy had some tricks of his own. Several spellcasters of not inconsiderable level if they could act on such a scale. Lieutenants on the edge of the flank confirmed her suspicions, as did a dark miasma on the horizon. No demon would leave that part of the battlefield alive, blocked off from teleportation, burning in black flames and under assault by a force a fraction the size of their own but a dozen times their power. It wouldn't be long before the enemy would commit that force again to another part of the battlefield, all but undamaged by her defenders. She ground her teeth. Never underestimate a Devil. Now the real battle would begin and the pace shift to lightning strikes. 
In the center of the battlefield the two vanguards battled on, all but irrelevant to the final outcome. Daiasath the Bold had done well in that ungrateful role, breaking the encirclement, reuniting her two forces of rabble and cutting off a slice of the enemy's rabble in the process. Clever girl, too bad her disloyalty was so obvious. Still, if she survived this she would deserve a promotion for that feat alone.
The strength of the enemies assault on her flank meant that a significant portion of their mobile forces were committed there. That would make this the perfect time to go on the offensive. Sending her center forward like an avalance in a pincer movement around the blood drenched vanguards and her right flank moving with unnatural speed into the surprised enemy Left she signalled open desperation to her unknown opponent. A feint, but not one he could afford to ignore. The attack would cause a ripple in the lines of her foes, a wave of communication that could be read and traced to their source. And then...
"My Lady," a tiny mortal in a dirty cloak, a Halfling or perhaps a Gnome if such distinctions mattered, spoke out in a weary but triumphant voice. "I believe I have found him and I know his defenses." He coughs, expelling blood and viscera, only some of it his own. "Now, can I have More?" "You can have all you desire, once our victory is complete. Those were the terms of your contract, and far more generous than you deserve. Ready yourself, and your acolytes. The time has come."
Space folded and she stepped trough. To the chanting chorus of a hundred mortal casters, the roaring of the Horde and the shrieking noise of layers of magic wards ripped apart she committed herself and her elite guard to combat. There stood the enemy general, a Pit Fiend towering over all others in the great hall, fury radiating from him in palpable waves. "Filth! Incompetent traitors!" She gave him no more time to curse his troops. With a hiss she crossed the space between them and her many weapons clashed with his flesh. He did not last long.


[/sblock] 

[sblock=Appearance]





[/sblock] 


[sblock=stats]
LA 10 / Marilith 16 HD / Fighter 2 / Marshal 1 / Monk 1

AL: LE HT: 10 ft, 22 with tail WT: 4000 lbs


90 points........base..race level Inherent Enhancement Special
Str....63/+26...17....+18..+1... +5....... +6............... +16 (motivate strength)
Dex...36/+13...17....+8..........+5........ +6 
Con...42/+16...13...+18.........+5........ +6 
Int....32/+11...13....+8..........+5........ +6 
Wis...32/+11...13....+8..........+5........ +6 
Cha...42/+16...17...+14.........+5........ +6 


HP: 422 (8 + 94 + 320) (8 + 15d8 + 2d10 + 1d8 + 1d8 + 20x16)

AC: 68 (10 + 13 dex + 8 armour + 16 nat armour + 5 natural armour enhancement + 5 Deflection + 11 wisdom)
Touch AC: 39
AC at full use of defending weapons: 83 (68+15)
Touch AC at full use of defending weapons: 54 (39+15)

Saves:
For: 38 (10 Outsider +3 Fighter +2 Marshal +2 Monk +16 Con +5 resistance)
Ref: 30 (10 Outsider +0 Fighter +0 Marshal +2 Monk +13 Dex +5 resistance) + Evasion
Will: 30 (10 Outsider +0 Fighter +2 Marshal +2 Monk +11 Wis +5 resistance)

Init: +24 (13 dex + 4 competence +2 typeless +5 insight) 
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.


Bab: 18
Grapple: 48 (18 bab + 26 str + 4 size)
Attack +49 (18 bab + 26 str +5 weapon)

Full Attacks

Primary hand
Conflict: +49/+44/+39/+34 
Large Mithral Scimitar +5, Heavenly Burst, Bodyfeeder, Thundering
Damage: 1d8+26 /15-20x2 + Critical hit effects (1d8 sonic, 3d6 vs Evil and Bodyfeeding) 

Secondary hand 
Hunger: +49/+44/+39 
Large Alchemical Silver Scimitar +5, Defending, Bodyfeeder, Heavenly Burst
Damage: 1d8+26 /15-20x2 + Critical hit effects (3d6 vs Evil and Bodyfeeding) + Defending

Teriary Hand
Thirst: +49/+44/+39 
Large Cold Iron Scimitar +5 , Defending, Transmuting, Desiccating, Desiccating Burst
Damage: 1d8+26 /15-20x2 + 1d4/1d8 dehydrating + Critical hit effects (1d8/2d8 dehydrating, fatigue) + Defending + Transmuting

Quaternary Hand
Aurora: +49/+44/+39
Large Mithral Scimitar +5 , Bane (Evil Outsiders), Heavenly Burst, Transmuting
Damage: 1d8+26 /15-20x2 + 2d6 (Evil Outsiders) + Critical hit effects (3d6 vs Evil) + Transmuting

Quinary Hand
Eclipse: +49/+44/+39 
Large Mithral Scimitar +5 , Unholy, Stunning Surge (DC 10 +1/2 char level + Cha), Transmuting
Damage: 1d8+26 /15-20x2 + 2d6 (good alignments) + Stun DC 36, 16/day + Transmuting

Senary Hand
Nemesis: +49/+44/+39
Large Mithral Scimitar +5 , Souldrinking, Defending
Damage: 1d8+26 /15-20x2 + 1 negative level + Critical hit effects (2 negative levels to target. +1d8 temp HP and +2 strength enhancement to wielder)

Tail slap +49
Damage: 4d6+39 + Improved Grab (free action grapple on hit with tail)


Skills (Total/Ranks) 348 [8x4 + 8x15 + 2x2 + 4x1 + 4x1 + 8x23] [Max rank 23]

..............................................HD.... Fighter.... Marshal.... Monk.... Ability.... Racial.... Feat.... Item.... Synergy
Bluff....................................... (19 
Concentration........................... (19 
Diplomacy................................ (19 
Disguise (+2 acting)................... (19 
Hide........................................ (19 
Intimidate................................ (19 
Listen...................................... (19 
Move Silently............................ (19 
Search..................................... (19 
Sense Motive............................. (19 
Spellcraft +23 (+25 scrolls).......... (19 
Spot........................................ (19 
Survival +4 (+6 follow tracks)....... (19 
Use Mag Dev +26 (+28 scrolls)...... (19 

Class Skills:
Marshal
Bluff Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Monk
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). 
Fighter
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str). 


Feats [7+2]
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Improved Critical (scimitar), Multiweapon Fighting [Note: Mariliths gain no penalty for off-hand attacks], Improved Multiweapon Fighting [+1 offhand attack/hand], Greater Multiweapon Fighting [+1 offhand attack/hand], Hand of Osano Wo [Full str bonus to all attacks] 

Additional Feats/Class Features: 
Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, Minor Aura (Motivate Strength).


Special Attacks
Constrict 4d6+, improved grab, spell-like abilities, summon demon

Special Qualities
Damage reduction 10/good and cold iron, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 25, telepathy 100 ft.

Constrict (Ex)
A marilith deals 4d6+39 points of damage with a successful grapple check. The constricted creature must succeed on a DC 10+str Fortitude save or lose consciousness for as long as it remains in the coils and for 2d4 rounds thereafter. The save DC is Strength-based.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a marilith must hit with its tail slap attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it succeeds on the grapple check, it can constrict.

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—align weapon, blade barrier (DC 32), magic weapon, project image (DC 30), see invisibility, telekinesis (DC 31), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), unholy aura (DC 34). Caster level 16th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Summon Demon (Sp)
Once per day a marilith can attempt to summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrou, or one nalfeshnee with a 50% chance of success, or one glabrezu or another marilith with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell.

True Seeing (Su)
Mariliths continuously use this ability, as the spell (caster level 16th). 

Skills
Mariliths have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. 

Feats
In combination with its natural abilities, a Marilith’s Multiweapon Fighting feat allows it to attack with all its arms at no penalty.
[/sblock] 

[sblock=Equipment]

Head: 
Headband of the Mind: +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha, + 10 diplomacy, +10 Bluff, +10 Perform(Sing) -- 180,000gp (36,000 + 54,000 [36,000x1,5] + 54,000 [36,000x1,5] + 36,000 [24,000x1,5]) (Greater Choker of Eloquence, Complete Adventurer) 

Eyes:
Piercing Eyes: X-ray vision, +5 spot, +5 search, -- 32,500 gp (25,000 + 3,750 [2,500x1,5] + 3,750 [2,500x1,5])
On command, the ability to see into and through solid matter. Vision range is 20 feet. X-ray vision can penetrate 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, or 
up to 3 feet of wood or dirt. Thicker substances or a thin sheet of lead blocks the vision. Physically exhausting, causing the wearer 1 point of Constitution damage per minute after the first 10 minutes of use in a single day.

Neck:
Amulet of the Void: Antimagic Torq (1/day), Necklace of Adaptation, +5 Natural Armour -- 101,000 gp (50,000 + 37,500 [25,000x1,5] + 13,500 [9,000x1,5]) The magic of the necklace wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, making him immune to all harmful vapors and gases and allowing him to breathe, even underwater or in a vacuum.

Shirt:
Scarab of Unnatural Advantage: Golembane Scarab, +Scarab of Protection, -- 41,750 gp (38,000 + 3,750 [2,500x1,5])
The scarab can absorb 12 energy-draining attacks, death effects, and negative energy effects.
Detect any golem within 60 feet (a standard action). A scarab enables its possessor to combat golems with weapons, unarmed attacks, or natural weapons as if those golems had no damage reduction. 

Body:
Bikini of the Roaring Bosom: +1 Mithral Bikini of Heavy Fortification (+5), Roaring (+3) (MIC, +4 competence to initiative, etc, Death Ward (1/day 
automatically for 70 minutes (MIC, +1). -- 101,500 gp

Those Lucky and Attentive Spikes: +1, Eager (+2) (MIC, +2 typeless Initiative bonus, +2 damage to all attacks the first round of combat and surprise rounds), 
Initiative (Oriental Adventures, 10,000 gp, +2 luck bonus on Initiative), Warning (+1) (MIC, +5 insight bonus to initiative), Luck (+1) (ExPH, reroll 1/day) 
-- 60,000 gp

Waist: 
Belt of the Body: +6 str, +6 Con, +6 Dex, Belt of Battle (MIC) -- 162,000 gp (36,000 gp + 54,000 [36,000x1,5] + 54,000 [36,000x1,5] + 18,000gp [12,000 x 1,5])3 charges/day, 1 charge:move, 2 charges:Standard, 3 charges: Full Round.

Shoulders: 
Barbed chain of Scornful Resistance: Resistance +5, +Flesh Ring of Scorn (BoVileD) -- 37,500 gp (25,000 + 12,000 [8000x1,5]) 
When this ring is pierced into the flesh of an evil outsider, it allows the outsider to automatically score a critical hit against a nonoutsider whenever the 
threat of a critical hit is indicated. 

Wrists: 
Death Defying Bracers: Deathsrike Bracers (Magic Item Compendium), Armour +8 -- 71,500 gp (64,000 + 7,500 [5000x1,5])
Activation: Swift (mental) When activated, deathstrike bracers allow you to use melee weapons to deal extra damage from critical hits and sneak attacks to 
constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead as if they were not immune to such extra damage. 1rd, 3/day.

Hands: 
Gauntlets of Hextor's corruption -- 26,500 gp (11,500 + 15,000 [10,000x1,5] + 6000 [4,000x1,5])
Gauntlets of War (CC) +1 damage to melee attacks, +3 if you worship a deity with access to the War domain.
Gauntlets of Rusting: Once per day, it can affect an object as with the rusting grasp spell. It also completely protects the wearer and her gear from rust 
(magical or otherwise), including the attack of a rust monster.
Glove of Storing: On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the item is a free action. 

Ring: 
Ring of Devious tricks: Major Spell Storing (Quickened Antimagic Field), + Evasion, -- 237,500 gp (200,000 + 37,500 [25,000x1,5])

Ring: 
Ring of the Stolen Paradise: Ring Of Solar Wings (BoExaltedD), +Freedom of Movement, +5 deflection: -- 253,000 gp (118,000 + 75,000 gp + 60,000 )
Gives Gleaming White Solar wings and the ability to fly at a speed of 150 ft (good maneuverability) and feather fall if removed. 

Feet/Tail: 
Tail Ring of Temporal Acceleration (MiC, swift action "timestop" 2rds 1/day) -- 43.000 gp


Weapons:
Conflict: Large Mithral Scimitar +5 , Heavenly Burst (+1) (MIC, 3d6 damage to evil creature on crit.), Bodyfeeder (+3) (ExPH, Critical hit gives temporary HPs equal to damage for 10 minutes), Thundering (+1) (1d8 sonic on crit) -- 202,500 gp

Hunger: Large Alchemical Silver Scimitar +5 , Defending (+1), Bodyfeeder (+3) (ExPH, Critical hit gives temporary HPs equal to damage for 10 minutes), Heavenly Burst (+1) (MIC, 3d6 damage to evil creature on crit.) -- 201,000 gp

Thirst: Large Cold Iron Scimitar +5 , Defending (+1), Transmuting (+2) (MIC, weapon overcomes targets DR after the first round it hits for 10 rounds) Desiccating (+1) (MIC, 1d4 dehydrating damage, 1d8 agaist water elementals and plants.), Desiccating Burst (+1) (MIC, + 1d8 (2d8 vs water elementals and plants) and fatigue on critical hit. -- 202,500 gp 

Aurora: Large Mithral Scimitar +5 , Bane (Evil Outsiders) (+2), Heavenly Burst (+1) (MIC, 3d6 damage to evil creature on crit.), Transmuting (+2) (MIC, weapon overcomes targets DR after the first round it hits for 10 rounds) -- 202,500 gp

Eclipse: Large Mithral Scimitar +5 , Transmuting (+2) (MIC, weapon overcomes targets DR after the first round it hits for 10 rounds), Unholy (+2) (2d6 against good), Stunning Surge (+1) (MIC, Fort save (DC 10 +1/2 char level + Cha or target is stunned for 1 round, 1+Cha/day.) -- 202,500 gp

Nemesis: Large Mithral Scimitar +5 , Souldrinking (+4) (BoVD, Weapon bestows a negative level when it does damage. +1d8 temp HP and +2 strength enhancement on critical hit), Defending (+1) -- 202,500 gp


Tomes +5 x6 = 825,000 gp

Sum: 3,385,750 / 4,300,000 gp

Rods:
Rod of Absorption -- 50,000gp

Wands: 
Wand of Wraithstrike 50/50: (Complete Adventurer, lvl2. Swift Action. Your Melee attacks strike as touch attacks for 1 round) -- 4500 gp
Extended Wand of Wraithstrike 50/50 -- 11,250 gp

Scrolls:
20 Scrolls of Quickened Dimension Door: 76,500 gp (3,825x20)

Misc:

[/sblock]


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 5, 2011)

ghostcat: I didn't want them ALL to be history. Some history is manditory if you want to be a legend. 

Nephtys: k, I've still got more looking through to do, since I don't have alot of time right now. But I did want to point out something. Your marshal aura does not add to strength. It gives a bonus on strength checks. big difference since you don't get any bonus to attack or damage.

_Motivate Strength:_ Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.

Also, I noticed you are adding armor enhancements to clothing pieces. Thats not allowed. Either its armor, in which case you can't use it with monk, or its not armor in which case you can't enhance it as armor. Thats the penalty of playing a monk.

On that regard as well you can't put armor spikes on regular clothing either. They gotta be on armor.

One last thing before I'm off, I also noticed you are not paying the x2 cost for slotting items into things they aren't supposed to go into (rings into shoulders, dex into a belt, ect).

I'll finish checking it over later.


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## Jemal (May 5, 2011)

If you want armour bonus as a monk, that's what Bracers of Armour are for.
Although I know I've seen the rules on Chain Mail Bikini somewhere...

On another note, I'm mostly (Re)done my spell list, and then I'll post the full character with Knowledge DC's and everything.. but right now I'm heading to sleep.. then work.. so probably sometime tommorow morning.


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## ghostcat (May 5, 2011)

Jemal. Once again thank you for the comprehensive assessment of my character.

It certainly deserves a comprehensive reply. Before I do I would like to comment that I am not so much into optimising characters as coming up with a concept and seeing where it leads. in this case concept is a "Low Strength Fighter". So I don't want to increase Strength. This means no strength bonus. Bearing this in mind, here goes:

*Classes*

Scout.

Thematically Scout fits the character concept better than Ranger. However, replacing Ranger means that I loose two attacks per round, which for me is a show stopper.

As an aside, I agree with you about ranger spell casting. i did look at the No Spell Casting variant in CW but the changes did not really excite me.

Swashbuckler.

This is harder. Because I have no strength bonus I need to find some other way of increasing damage, the Swashbuckler's "Insightful Strike" is the only I can think of achieving this.

Monk

Monk doesn't really fit into the character background and would mean changing alignment. However Ninja has the same Wisdom bonus to AC and is a much better fit. Also _Sudden Strike_ is more useful than _unarmed strike_, which I can't see me using.

Fighter

Keeping _Hide in Plain Sight_ would be worth the bonus feat I would get from fighter. However, the 1 level of Nija remove this anyway and Rangers don't get anything at 16th level, taking one level of fighter for the bonus feat is now worth it. Especially as you still get full BAB with Fighter.

*Epic Feats*

This more or less makes sense, although I my retain "Combat Casting".

NOTE: D20 SRD has _Greater Weapon Focus_ as a pre-requisite. So I double checked with [url="http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/EpicFeats.rtf]WotC[/url] which doesn't.

*Stats*

Definitely worth the change.


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## Vertexx69 (May 5, 2011)

@ Nephtys - The reason you can't have quickened or swift spells in spell completion items like wands and scrolls, is because activating a wand or scroll is a standard action no matter how fast the spell is cast.

A large +10 cold iron scimitar costs 402,330g before any strait money abilities as all enhancement costs are doubled on cold iron weapons.

@ Dharuhk Svahre - I did have a question about the xp penalty though. You said we were 1/3 into lvl 30 which give us roughly 445,333xp. But with my xp penalties I have 25,400xp less. I added that as a deficit to be worked off as we go, since starting with a whole hd less would require me to completely rework the character. Is this OK?


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## Nephtys (May 5, 2011)

Some of that's easy to change, for others it will require some rethinking. 

I've added part of her background to the post above. It's not finished and I'll try to raise the quality of the writing when I go over it again.

I'm continuously revising my character to incorporate your rulings and advice.

--

I noticed somewhere that we're not allowed to use the Item creation chart. But does that mean we're not allowed to buy scrolls, wands and staffs?

Has anyone compiled the house rules for this game? If not then I guess I just volunteered myself. 

--

Since Marshal's motivate strength doesn't add to to hit and damage, but to str checks and skills (and presumable str DCs) would I be better off changing the Aura to motivate Tactics, which adds cha to damage when flanking? It's about half as good as I thought motivate strength was.

If I can't add armour enchantments (or spikes, but that's kind of obvious) to clothing and can't use armour as a Monk would I be better off dumping Monk entirely and getting an Animated Tower shield instead? I'd mostly lose touch AC, but I can in part make up for that with a few more Defending enchantments on the swords.

Should I dump both Marshal and Monk? And pick up what instead? 2 levels of Fighter would get me a bonus feat but at the price of some good class skills. 1 lvl of Cleric for turning I could use for that feat that adds cha to damage cha#/day? But that would cost me another useful feat, probably greater multiweapon with 5 extra attacks. No easy choices.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 6, 2011)

Nephtys: Ok, so second half of my revue:

First off, scarabs go on amulet slots, not a shirt slot.

I'm not allowing repeat items, so taking 20 scrolls of something isn't legit. 

Wands and scrolls are allowed in the singular, but Vertexx already pointed out that spell triggers are standard action so quicken spells don't help.

I'm not allowing gear from the book of vile darkness into this game. This falls under my right to say no to other sources. Most of whats in the book of vile darkness has been reprinted, though you have to use the MiC rules for it. Fleshring of Scorn is a big example, I don't know if Souldrinking has been reprinted.

You don't get to pick what spell you get in a spell storing ring. Since you can't cast a quicken antimagic field, you can't put one in it.

You never put where antimagic torq was from.

I'm not allowing defending to stack with itself. You can only use it once.

Thats seems to be about it. 

Vertexx: I'll allow the penalty. 

ghostcat: The scout is where you would be getting a bonus to damage. The extra int mod against things not immune to crits would be less useful than skirmish.


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## Jemal (May 6, 2011)

GLAH.. Had a big post, internet ate it. Don't have time to rewrite it now.

Essentials are: 
Scrolls can be quickened (They have those in ELH)
Ghostcat, Scout does NOT loose you any attacks, and gives you a better damage bonus than swasbuckler.

Will post more details later.


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## Jemal (May 6, 2011)

OK, so here's the details I'd originally tried posting before the internet decided to pull a fast one on me: 

Ghostcat - I will reply to each of your comments in turn.  Firstly, if you don't want strength then I won't push it.  I'm not trying to change your concpt, just help you play the type of character you want more effectively.



> Classes
> 
> Scout.
> 
> ...



OK, not sure why you think you loose any attacks, the example I posted is still full iterative attacks, and ranger doesn't give any abilities that grant extra attacks (Except the feats that the scout could take as regular feats anyways).  As for Swashbuckler, as Dharuhk pointed out, Skirmish from the Scout would give you a much better damage bonus than swashbuckler, AND it wouldn't be negated by all crits (B/c if you took the swift hunter feat with it, it would still apply to favoured enemies even if they were immune to crits)

*Another note: RE Base Attack Bonus - If you take the levels in the proper order, your Base Attack bonus need be no lower than 18.  
MATH: 10 Dervish = 10, 2 ranger = 2.  These are classes I KNOW you will have, regardless of whether you go with swashbuckler/scout/fighter/more ranger.  That leaves you with 8 levels.  Even if you were to take scout for those 8 levels(3/4 base attack), that still gives another 6 BAB, leaving your total at 18.  



> Monk
> 
> Monk doesn't really fit into the character background and would mean changing alignment. However Ninja has the same Wisdom bonus to AC and is a much better fit. Also Sudden Strike is more useful than unarmed strike, which I can't see me using.



Meh, I'm just a monk fanboy, I think it makes everything cooler.   If you don't like it, don't use it. 



> Fighter
> 
> Keeping Hide in Plain Sight would be worth the bonus feat I would get from fighter. However, the 1 level of Nija remove this anyway and Rangers don't get anything at 16th level, taking one level of fighter for the bonus feat is now worth it. Especially as you still get full BAB with Fighter.



 Don't see where you loose Hide in Plain Sight from, so long as you make sure you have either 17 lvls ranger or 14 Scout, they both grant the exact same hide in plain sight rule.  (Or you could go the easy path and grab a single level of shadow dancer, But I didn't think it fit with the characters theme so I didn't suggest it originally.)



> Epic Feats
> 
> This more or less makes sense, although I my retain "Combat Casting".



I will request once more that you seriously reconsider that.  Combat casting is IMO one of the worst feats in the game at high level.  I have quite literally never seen a case at Epic where a concentration check for casting defensively would have had its outcome altered by the presence or absence of +4.  It IS possible to fail concentration checks, but they won't be for Fighting Defensively.  The DC for that is only 15+Spell level, and provided you have ranks in it, that will be a matter of 'don't nat one' (Or if your check is high enough, you may be able to do it EVEN on a nat one).

If you're taking it for the Thematic aspect, I would suggest that just maxing out your ranks in Concentration serves the same function, as it is an indicator that the character is skilled at such things.  Heck, at that point Just take the "Open Minded" feat.  It grants 5 skill points, which you could put ALL into concentration for a total +5 bonus that applies to ALL usages of the skill, rather than a +4 that just applies to fighting defensively/Grapple.
The only reason I would ever advocate taking that feat at high levels is as a prereq for something else (And no, I don't mean Epic combat casting)

And the last reason I am against it is b/c.. You're giving up an EPIC feat to do it.  I can see sacrificing a normal feat for theme.. I do it all the time with things like Eschew Materials and Cleave..
But EPIC feats are there to help you live up to your name, to help you do EPIC things.


In the end, it's your character, so keep in mind these are just my opinions and do what you feel like.


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## Jemal (May 6, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre said:


> First off, scarabs go on amulet slots, not a shirt slot.



I actually had to go and check that, I had allways thought Scarabs were a slot-less item but that you could only have one.  Huh, guess you never stop learning no matter how much of a powergaming rules-muncher people call you. 



> Wands and scrolls are allowed in the singular, but Vertexx already pointed out that spell triggers are standard action so quicken spells don't help.



'cept that the ELH seems to indicate otherwise, offering options for metamagic'd scrolls, including Quicken.



> You don't get to pick what spell you get in a spell storing ring. Since you can't cast a quicken antimagic field, you can't put one in it.



 Though if he were to buy a scroll/wand/staff, he could use that couldn't he?  Or ask one of his fellow partymembers if they know it.



> You never put where antimagic torq was from.



IIRC, It's from Forgotten realms underdark campaign setting, allows you to cast AMF 1/day for 25,000 GP.


ALSO, A note re the last two quotes: If anybody casts an antimagic field (Or a silence spell for that matter) and Kayla gets caught in it, she WILL take it personally.  Impeding the flow of the musical lifeblood of the Universe may not be an explicitly EVIL act, but it's on par with casting an evil spell as far as she's concerned - You better have a damn good reason.


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## Jemal (May 6, 2011)

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I felt it kept the issues well grouped... Just one more..

And finally, a couple questions for the DM before I can finish the last of my spell list.
A) Time stop.  Your take on it?
IE: Do you have any particular feelings PC's using it?  Would you avoid it if we do?(I like this idea, Time Stop to me is one of the spells that I feel falls under MAD)

B) Shapechange.  Which version do you use?  
Original PHB states 2Xcaster level, no more than 50HD.
Revised SRD states Caster lvl no more than 25HD
Most people I've gamed with use the houserule that's somewhere in between: caster lvl no more than 50HD.
*Not that it matters much(25HD still gets you the vast majority of the MM), nor am I planning on using it as a frequent combat style, I just like knowing my options ahead of time.

C) This isn't something that my character's dependant on, more of a situational "I thought it'd be cool" idea.  If I were to TWIN a true strike, would you allow the +20's to be used on two seperate attack rolls, assuming they were used similarily? (My specific Idea is Twinned true strike to enhance a Twinned attack spell, which thematically makes sense, I believe).
Like I said, it's just an option I'm wondering about.

D) Polymorph Any Object: Do you allow it to be used on PART of an object? It states it can affect a nonmagical object of up to 100 Cubic feet/lvl, but would you allow it to be used to affect PART of a larger object?  
IE Transforming one wall of a castle, or a portion of the floor.  I love using it as a construction spell, polymorphing a large portion of the ground.
I've never had any complaints in the past, but I figure it's always best to check.


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## ghostcat (May 6, 2011)

[MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION].

1.  Loosing attacks was just me misunderstanding how BAB works at high level. I did say I'm not used to the stratosphere  So Scout it is. Ninja and Fighter fit nicely. So in order its Ranger(2), Scout(3),  Fighter(1),Dervish(10),Ninja(1), Scout(4-16)

2.  Hide In Plain Sight. All I was trying to say here is that as long as I was sticking with Ranger, I would rather have HiPS than a fighter bonus feat. As soon as I took a level of Ninja I lost it, so went with the Fighter bonus feat. Now I am going with scout I get it back.

3. Having investigated further, I agree about Combat Casting.

[MENTION=6668704]Dharuhk Svahre[/MENTION]

Given I have rebuilt my character do you want me to re-role the HD. I could use the existing ones - Ranger ones can be split between Ranger and Scout; Dervish is unchanged. So I just need to roll for Ninja and Fighter.


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## Jemal (May 6, 2011)

One final thing - Which Ninja are you using? I presume the one from Complete Adventurer, yes?
If so, I would suggest altering ONE level in your order... Take Ninja AFTER 20, and take another scout nonepic. It's better BAB that way.  
(3/4 bab classes loose their bab on the FIRST of every four levels, so the next three are all +1BAB before you loose another.)
Although if you use the ninja lvl your saves'll be better.
For your amusement: 
First 20 lvls:
Ranger2/Scout3/Fighter1/Dervish10/Ninja1/Scout4-6 
BAB 17, Fort10, Ref17, Will9

Ranger2/Scout3/Fighter1/Dervish10/Scout4-7 
BAB 18, Fort 10, Ref15, Will9

Your choice, +1 BAB or +2 Reflex.  With the massive Reflex save you're allready going to have, I'd suggest the BAB.

Also keep in mind that juggling lvl order won't affect anything but saves&attack.  Skills/feats/HP will remain the same regardless of when you took the level.. 
OOH, well, except for whichever is your FIRST level.. I would suggest scout first for the bonus skill points(8 more than ranger if taken at first lvl)


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 6, 2011)

First off, I'm gonna say no epic scrolls. Not that i think anybody has gone out to purchase them, but I just want to curb the rediculousness of buying as much metamagic as you want on scrolls with millions of gp to spend. Not a good combo.

Jemal: First off, so far no party member has posted a spell list or ability that let them cast a quickened antimagic field yet. As for Wand/Staff/Scroll, its a level 10 spell. I don't allow epic scrolls, there are no epic wands, and there are no listed staffs that can cast it.

Now for A: I don't know what you're asking. Timestop = fun? I don't know. I believe it is an encounter fast forward button, so I kinda like it myself. 

B: I'm gonna ask that you don't use shapechange. Its the biggest headache spell I've ever had to deal with, and has caused me some personal problems in previous gaming experiences. Stupid spell is just too variable, especially at epic level.

C: A twin truestrike sadly does not work. It is quite specific that the variables be exactly the same, and more to the point you can't cast 2 truestrikes in one round and have them apply to the next 2 attacks you make. They would all go off on the next attack, not one at a time.

D: I think common sense is the dictating factor here. I don't want to say no, I do think you can polymorph a single section of wall or a chunk of ground. On the other hand I don't think you can polymorph just half of a person's face. I know people aren't objects, but I don't think you could do that to a corpse either. 

ghostcat: I leave the option for a reroll or a shift around of HD up to you as long as the ending results are legit.


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## Nephtys (May 6, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre said:


> Nephtys: Ok, so second half of my revue:
> 
> First off, scarabs go on amulet slots, not a shirt slot.
> 
> ...




Thanks. Most of the equipment I can adjust without much additional cost and I still have a lot of gold unspent. I was hoping to use the scrolls as a way to equalise my powerlevel compared to the casters, but the removal of Shapechange goes a long way so I'm satisfied. I know it's not a competitive game, but it's good not to feel overshadowed by squishy little mortals who can turn themselves into Glooms or Solars at a whim.

--

Before I implement some changes I wanted to know if you would accept them:

Complete Champion (46)
Barbarian alternative class feature

Level: 1st.
Replaces: This benefit replaces the fast movement class feature.

_Lion Totem: _​Regal and intimidating, the powerful lion is a symbol of nobility among the races of the wild. By selecting him as your spiritual totem, you gain the pounce ability 
(_MM _313).


There are no mechanical restrictions why a demon couldn't use this class feature although the flavour is a bit strange. The savagery of a barbarian fits with the demonic image and the lion part could just be an aspect of their animalistic nature.​ 


--​ 

A valorous weapon allows its wielder to make powerful charge attacks. When used in a charge, the valorous weapon deals double damage, much like a mounted warrior with the Spirited Charge feat. More than one doubling of damage increases the damage multiple by one per additional doubling, so double-double damage is triple damage, triple-double damage is quadruple damage, and so on.​ 
*Price*: +1 bonus​ 
Unapproachable East

-- 

Halberd of Vaulting
This _+2 halberd_ allows its wielder to make powerful leaping attacks. The _halberd of vaulting_ gives its wielder a +30 bonus on Jump checks and removes the usual maximums for jumping distance. Whenever the wielder takes the charge action, she may attempt a vaulting charge. If the wielder can make a running high jump at least 5 feet high during the charge, the charge attack deals double damage. To make a vaulting charge, the wielder must have a clear path through the air to the target. In an area with a low ceiling or overhanging obstructions, a vaulting charge might not be possible.
Market Price: 20,310 gp; Cost to Create: 10,310 gp + 800 XP
Source: Arms And Equipment Guide


*-*​ 

As you can see I'm trying to change my build to a charger. Do any of you have any tips how I could improve it more? For my Marshal minor aura I'm going Over the Top (+ to charge), of course. But are there some feats or items I'm missing out of? It's a real shame I have to be orcish for this feat, it would really fit very well for demons too:

Headlong Rush
*Type*: General
*Source: *Races of Faerun
You charge your foes with immense force, heedless of your own safety.
*Prerequisite*: Orc or half-orc, base attack bonus +4 or higher
*Benefit*: Instead of a normal charge attack, you can perform a headlong rush. A headlong rush is a charge that provokes attacks of opportunity from every foe who can reach its path, including the opponent you attack. A headlong rush otherwise functions like a charge attack (+2 attack, -2 AC, straight-line movement only), except that a successful attack deals double damage.


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## ghostcat (May 6, 2011)

Jemal. Thanks for the advice.  As I have already mentioned, I am not really used to building characters at this level, so these sort of things don't even occur to me. That said, I am really enjoying the learning experience.

As to which way to go, I think I'll sleep on it.


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## rangerjohn (May 6, 2011)

DS sounds like its better to go archmage in your games than gish.

Time Stop any blasting spells, I win.

Wheras you limit the spells that help in melee.


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## Jemal (May 6, 2011)

Can't say any of those answers surprise me.  The True Strike thing I Know doesn't work per the base rules, that's why I was asking if you'd be willing to allow it for specific functions, but as I said earlier, it's not a large part of the character so not that important.

I was actually kinda hoping you'd say no to Timestop, b/c if it's in then I pretty much have to take it.. I'd loose my Sorcerors license if I didn't. *L*

Your views on Poly-Anything are the same as mine, just wanted to make sure.

And finally, if Shapechange causes you headaches like that, would you like me to avoid polymorph too?  Changing forms isn't a standard part of the character, but I always like having the option.  If it's something you'd rather not have in your campaign though, I'll drop it.


Nephtys - Are you taking the leap attack feat? B/c if you are then you're well on your way to making the Uber-Charger, one of the highest(non-casting, non-infinite) damage dealers the Optimization boards ever came up with.  I think around lvl 20 he was in close to (if not above)4 digits worth of damage per round.


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## Jemal (May 7, 2011)

DM - Someone asked a page or two ago if there was a compilation of the house rules/question rulings somewhere.  I wonder if you could edit the first post to include all of them so that people could check them all in a single, easy-to-find post rather than having to try and leaf through a dozen pages?

Rangerjohn - Actually, my favourite Fighter-mage(I hate 'gish') I ever played didn't use any of the banned spells.  He wasn't a mage who expended all his magic to turn into a better fighter, he was a fighter who also had mage abilities and used BOTH during combat.
Teleport, Sunschool to smack opponent, quickened force orb to the face.  
Next round, full attack, quickened lightning leap to zap THROUGH the opponent, sunschool to smack him.
Etc, etc.

Twas a really fun character.


Anyways, not that that really matters to your concept, so What spells exactly are you worried that he's gotten rid of?  Only buff spell so far that I can think of is Shapechange, and it's not required to make mages into fighters, just to make them into gods. 

If you're looking for some buff spells: Greater Mage Armour, Greater Blink, Mighty Wallop/Greater(If using blunt weapon), Dolorus Blow, Heroics, Heroism/Greater Heroism, Tensers Transformation(Though this prevents further casting), Wraith strike are all good, just to name a few. I think those are all from PHB/Spell Comp except Mighty Wallop which is, I believe, Races of the Dragon.


Also keep in mind that you cannot effect others while in Time Stop, the only way to blast during it is with Delayed spells set to go off on your turn after the time stop ends, or area effect spells such as Evards & Clouds that will also not start affecting them till the Time Stop ends.


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## Nephtys (May 7, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Nephtys - Are you taking the leap attack feat? B/c if you are then you're well on your way to making the Uber-Charger, one of the highest(non-casting, non-infinite) damage dealers the Optimization boards ever came up with. I think around lvl 20 he was in close to (if not above)4 digits worth of damage per round.




I'm considering it, but I would have to trade off another feat, probably Greater Multiweapon Fighting or Hand of Osano Wo. Either would cost me a lot of damage potential in return for boosting Power Attack, and using PA reduces my chances to hit unless I take Shock Trooper, which costs me another feat as a prereq. If I went that route I would drop the Cleave feats and would never be able to get Devastating Attack. But DA is far in the future as it is, so it might not be worth aiming for.


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## Jemal (May 7, 2011)

well if you do, that should make you by far the Highest DPS in the party outside of my alpha-strike. (Heck, if you do it right you'll beat that too)
I'd suggest dropping the Greater MWF if you plan on power attacking, the lower-end iterative attacks aren't gonna be hitting on anything but a 20 at that point, and if you're leap-attack pouncing at 3 or 4X damage, then things you CAN hit will be dead before you get that many attacks off anyways.  It's very much a one-turn one-kill build at that point.

Anyways, Off to work we go, back in ~10 hours.


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## rangerjohn (May 7, 2011)

I'm just going to bow out.  We have Omega an ancient relic warlock, you sorcerer of some stripe, a maralith, and a vampire swordsage.  No matter what I would be stepping on someone's toes.


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## Nephtys (May 7, 2011)

Jemal said:


> well if you do, that should make you by far the Highest DPS in the party outside of my alpha-strike. (Heck, if you do it right you'll beat that too)
> I'd suggest dropping the Greater MWF if you plan on power attacking, the lower-end iterative attacks aren't gonna be hitting on anything but a 20 at that point, and if you're leap-attack pouncing at 3 or 4X damage, then things you CAN hit will be dead before you get that many attacks off anyways. It's very much a one-turn one-kill build at that point.




It all hinges on Pounce, though. Unless there is some bonus to str or PA damage to wielding a weapon in six hands. I'm guessing not. 



rangerjohn said:


> I'm just going to bow out. We have Omega an ancient relic warlock, you sorcerer of some stripe, a maralith, and a vampire swordsage. No matter what I would be stepping on someone's toes.





My character doesn't even have toes, so no risk there.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 7, 2011)

rangerjohn: First off, if yo uwant to bow out thats fine, but I do believe your worry about stepping on people's toes is unfounded. So far every character posted has been radically different, and theres still alot of wiggle room.

As for the pro archmage comment, I do take slight offense to that (not that I believe any was intended mind you). At this level, no matter which rendition of shapechange you use, it can make you better BY FAR than any of the current posted characters here. And the trajic part is there is no controling factors to it. I can't see how far off your stats will go because you get to pick something new each time you cast it, hell each round you are in it! I don't remove shapechange for me, I remove it so that every character who doesn't have it gets to play.

Nephtys: I'm really hoping it doesn't feel like I'm picking on you. Its not my intention and 90% of your character is going well. BUT, I am going to disallow the barbarian alternate class feature. I've always despised that ability. They weren't thinking straight when they made it. 1 level to get unlimited pounce is WAY too cheap for such a powerful ability, and if you took it you would overmatch every non-spell flinger in the party unless they all went back and took it too. Same problem as the shapechange.

Jemal: Putting up a consolidated house rules list is on my things to do list, which means god knows when its gonna show up. Been too busy with off-line life recently. Honestly the Rogues Gallery is next on my list. Hopefully tommorow, but it IS mothersday so it might be monday.


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## Shayuri (May 7, 2011)

For Neph's character, I wonder if there may be a point of compromise?

What if Neph downgraded the marilith's natural abilities somewhat...enough to bump the LA to +9. Then you can get another level of something, giving you access to epic feats.

Then you can get Dire Charge, which is kind of like Pounce, but a squidge more limited. It gives you some of the functionality without that abusability that has our GM concerned.

As far as what would need to be sacrificed to get the ECL to +9...well, that's something you'd need to discuss.


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## rangerjohn (May 7, 2011)

The problem is I don't see a niche that hasn't been filled.  My original idea now that I've finally been able to read TOB is amazingly close to the swordsage.  Heck he was even an elf in life.  

Going the other way we have Jemal's sorcerer and Shayuri's warlock.  Or if I were to go more warrior, we run into the maralith.  What am I missing?


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## Nephtys (May 7, 2011)

Without the ability to do a full attack from feats or scrolls (Q Ddoor) or class features I gain nothing from the main feature of the Marilith since six arms are no better than two against an intelligent opponent who keeps mobile. As it is I get an extra move action 3/day from an item, other than that it's one attack per round possible most of the time. Against the ACs in the ELH I'm not likely to hit with my single attack unless I can use touch attacks I gain from wands or scrolls. 

Maybe it's true that the character would be more powerful than the other non-casters in the party, but it would never have the power or versatility of the casters. If "overpowered" abilities geared for non-casters are not allowed and if we are not allowed to compensate for their relative inflexibility with crafted items that cast or duplicate the spells that casters can use with few restrictions there is no way we will even come close to the power of the inherently overpowered casters. I understand that you're requesting the spellcasters players not to use Shapechange, and that is a good request. It keeps the spellcasters being spellcasters and not melee monsters. In the same way it is reasonable to keep the fighters from stepping on the casters toes by using crafted items and scrolls. But reducing a fighting character to using one attack per round (against an opponent with half a brain), while spellcasters have near unlimited power and flexibility (with a request not to use Shapechange), is not balanced.

It's your right to disallow whatever you want. And I certainly understand that you won't allow anything that could be against the rules. It is your game and I respect that. I'm sorry if my frustration comes off as offensive to you. Your task is more difficult tham mine. But creating this character has taken a lot of time and effort for me and I can't get it to work. It's disheartening.


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## Jemal (May 7, 2011)

Neph - Don't forget Quickened SLA: Teleport, that'll do the same trick (And just FYI, quickened D-Door as you suggested would NOT, as you loose all other actions after you dimension door).  Sure the quickened Teleport doesn't allow you the charge bonuses, but they still allow you the extra attacks.

Shayuri's idea seems an interesting solution, as well.  Along with Quickened Greater Teleport 3/day and belt of battle 3/day, that would give you one guaranted full-round per combat (Assuming you either charge during the first round, or convince the DM to change it to the more common and sensical 'once per combat' house rule rather than "in the first round") and 6 more expendable per day.

Assuming 3 combats per day, that would be 3 times per combat that you could assault your opponent from further than your reach.  Speaking of which, don't forget Marilith's have 10' reach, so people can't just walk away, they HAVE to tumble to get out of your range without provoking an AoO, which limits what they can do, AND they have to end up more than 15' from you(To prevent you from simply 5 foot stepping).  And if they're powerful enough that you HAVE to full round them (IE not minions) then they'll likely be outnumbered, and the manuevering advantage belongs to the side with the greater number of pieces.

Also, keep in mind that any Opponent who's a melee fighter (one not focused on mobility such as a dervish or scout) would also want to Full-Round, it's kinda they way melee classes work unless you specifically build the character otherwise.  A mage or ranged character is going to try to get away from ANY melee that attacks them, so you're essentially trying to argue that melee is pointless at Epic (Which I can guarantee you from experience is far from true)


I just don't see a lot of badguys repeatedly running away from you on every turn, and even if they do, they would have to run away from you successfully four times in a row before it would even START to become an issue (Using my assumptions above about dire charge/belt of battle/quickened teleport and 3 encounters per day)  Even at SIX encounters per day (Which is way more than I would expect at this level), you could still do it twice per encounter, meaning they'd have to run on three concurrent turns.  Personally, I'd go with One big weapon and four little weapons as your 'off-hand attacks'.  (IE Greatsword/4XShortsword or some such).   That way you have the one Two-hander for a single big bash when you can't full round, and you could view the MWF capabilities as the icing on the cake for the 2-3 rounds(guaranteed) per combat that you DO get them.


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## Jemal (May 8, 2011)

Rangerjohn: 
 here's a list of Common archetypes we do not have: 
Combat Priest
Healing Priest
Spellcasting Priest
Shapechanger (Druid or transmuter mage)
Controller
Ranged Fighter Type(Archer, dagger thrower, etc)
Mascot (monstrous non-humanoid character.  No, Marilith doesn't count)
Fighter-Mage (Wasn't that your original idea? Why doesn't it work?).

Also, there are dozens of different variations on most types.  Especially melee fighters.

So as you can see, there are a lot of toes around.  Dont' gotta worry that it'll be ours you step on.

Also, I believe we are doing split parties, so that also removes the toes of whomever is in the other party.


EDIT: Vertexx - I was going over everyones sheets to see what roles had been filled, and noticed your obscene hide check.. How'd you get a +47 misc and then another situational +40 on top of that? (I assume that's what the +47(+87) = +72(+112) means).  In fact a lot of your stuff has really high mods, I'd be interested to know where they came from, as I've been looking for ways to shore up my skills what with not being able to make skill-items via the chart.


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## Vertexx69 (May 8, 2011)

Oops was off by one (Max hide modifier of 1d20+111) 10D/-2ACP/8R/30C: The mantle of great stealth (ELH) takes care of most of it with a lovely +30 Comp mod. As a vampire Hanshu gets +8 racial mods to 8 skills, hide among them. For the situational +40, that's from my lovely ring of sequestering that makes Hanshu invisible (a +40 if not moving or a +20 if he is to hide checks), without being susceptible to those pesky divination spells like "see invisibility/true seeing", or konk out when I attack. Coupled with his darkstalker feat from the book of aberrations, scentblinder and flight, Hanshu really is invisible to every form of detection unless an enemy can beat his obscene hide check.

Luckily there are 2 epic items that give the good, epic lvl bonuses to skills and I bought them both. Jump being based off both strength and speed is easy to get huge bonuses for. I'm just getting the most out if it with tiger claw maneuvers


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## Wilphe (May 8, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Rangerjohn:
> here's a list of Common archetypes we do not have:
> Combat Priest
> Healing Priest
> ...




Hmmm...


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## Jemal (May 8, 2011)

Er.. Sequester works against divinations that Detect or Locate.. such as the appropriately named spell trees "detect X" and "Locate Y".  Assuming it prevents against True Seeing/Invisibility is giving it far too much power & Credit, especially since it specifically states that items such as Gem of Seeing and Robe of Eyes locate you.. Robe of Eyes is based off True Seeing, and Gem of Seeing is quite literally just a device that allows you see as though using the True Seeing spell.


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## rangerjohn (May 8, 2011)

Oh, so its useless at the level it is made for?  Only useful against minions.  The only things in the srd I have found without true seeing so far are animals, elementals and Le Shay.  Oh, and golems/Colossi, but they are immune to magic.  The colossi even generating anti-magic fields.


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## Shayuri (May 8, 2011)

Far from useless. You're overstating the prevalance of True Sight, even at epic levels. Most monsters that have True Sight are outsiders. Very few non-outsiders have True Sight unless they have caster levels and can cast it (in which case it can also be dispelled). 

True Sight itself also has limits, one of which is range. That's why, for example, I'm bothering to take the Greater Invisibility invocation for Omega. He can attack from 500 feet away. True Sight doesn't go that far. In fact, no divination does.

As long as he's in a position to control the range of the engagement, he can attack invisibly. It's the same reason I'm not stressing over Blindsight.


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## rangerjohn (May 8, 2011)

So invisbility is not useless to a blaster, but is to a melee character.  Such as the swordsage or my original idea.  I am really beginning to think a gish is not viable at epic level.  All the buffs are counteracted, or superseded by items.  So its better to go straight blaster or warrior.  
On another note, your counting on a lot of long range encounters, mostly outside.  Just about any building is going to put you within range.


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## Shayuri (May 8, 2011)

Yep. Invisibility is nice when you can get it, but it isn't the cornerstone of the concept. Omega ought to do fine when he's visible too.

As for gishing, I think the key is to use your buff spells to save money on items...and then to spend that money on a really GOOD item that you wouldn't otherwise be able to afford.

For example, Sequester isn't that much different than Greater Invis + Mind Blank. So if you can cast those two spells, then you can save 600 grand on a ring of Sequestering, get the same basic functionality, and spend that cash elsewhere. Spell Compendium also makes some juicy buffs like Wraithstrike available that are hard to get in other ways. 

The effectiveness of a gish pretty much hinges on your willingness to plod through every book to cherry pick the spells that synergize best. If that's not your idea of fun, then a gish might not be the best choice for you at level 30.


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## rangerjohn (May 8, 2011)

Your right.  But its worse than that.  Not only would I need to read through every spell, but every opponent. Then since I'm so new to them all, I would still make mistakes.  While he wouldn't need a ring of sequestering, he would need the animal line items, unless I'm missing something.  The items blow the spells out of the water.  If I were to go cleric at this level, all I see is a healer that uses persistant divine power and divine favor, effective but not interesting, and that's only with the right equipment.  Paticulary something that would allow touch attacks.


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## rangerjohn (May 8, 2011)

On another note, how do you cast 10+ level spells?  Those with meta-magic effects.  I see the rules for getting the spells to that level, but not the rules for having access to them.


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## Jemal (May 8, 2011)

Oh where to begin..
Invisibility is FAR from pointless.  As Shayuri pointed out, not EVERYTHING has see invis/true seeing, even at epic.  Most PC's do, because most players are worried about covering every possible eventuality(though thats another rant)

The ability to cast lvl 10+ spells is granted by the Epic Feat "Improved Spell Capacity".  It requires max lvl spellcasting and each time you take it it grants you access to spell slots of one higher level, for use with metamagic feats.

If by "the animal line" you mean Bulls strength/Cats grace/etc, then you are correct that the BASE spells are worse than items, but if you have access to Spell Compendium, you'll find that is not the case..

As for the cleric, I have to correct you there - Have you never heard of CoDzilla?  Clerics are even better buffers than normal mages.  Divine Power, Divine Favour, and Righteous Might(Just to name a few from CORE) are the cornerstone and by themselves put a cleric on par with a fighter. Then they get other bonuses and options... Spell immunity, healing, divinations, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestement, and of course various attack and utility spells.  I never felt that the fighter-mage was about casting a bunch of buffs and then just being a fighter, I always love the utility and options the spellcasting provided.

Why is knowing every possible opponent any more relavent for a fighter-mage than any other concept?  I don't even think it's advisable unless your character's got the appropriate knowledge skills, b/c it leads to metagaming. (This fact and the fact that I know a lot about the monsters/powers/spells/etc at Epic is why I usually invest heavily in Knowledge skills at epic.)
Furthermore, I don't think it's physically possible to know every opponent. The majority of opponents in most Epic Games are NPC's rather than monsters, meaning they coulc be/do literally anything.  


I don't want to sound harsh, but it seems like you're TRYING to come up with reasons not to play it.. If you don't feel like going through all the epic spellcasting work(It is very much like doing your taxes), then just make up something else.  It's not like we're going to sneer and say "Oh that guy changed concepts b/c he couldn't do casting".. 


If you're really worried about effectiveness, my character has several flaws.  
Primarily, Dispels and Antimagic kick her ass.  A lot of her defenses and abilities come from buffs.  The weakness makes sense b/c she is a character who is becoming one with magic itself, and so if that wholeness is interupted, it leaves her weak and vulnerable.  
She also has NO IMMUNITIES except for Disease/Poison and Crits, She's not sequestered, Permanently Invisible, or mind blanked.

Now, I could go back and rework her so that she's immune to everything and would never run into a situation she couldn't handle, but where's the fun in that?  Epic Level to me isn't about creating a perfect character who has no weaknesses and can kill anything.  Despite the fact that she has so many of what a lot of people would consider crippling flaws, I think she's going to be fantastically fun to play, and I think she's powerful enough to hold her own.  That's all I believe matters.


And finally, Shayuri - See Invisibility has no range.  But I think that's just as well, since without it your character would be nigh invincible at long range.  Some of your spells don't even have an effect they can trace back to you, so you could just fly around bombarding and cackling in any outdoor encounter.


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## Nephtys (May 8, 2011)

rangerjohn said:


> On another note, how do you cast 10+ level spells? Those with meta-magic effects. I see the rules for getting the spells to that level, but not the rules for having access to them.




Improved Spell Capacity [Epic]
Benefit
When you select this feat, you gain one spell slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level spell you can already cast in a particular class. You must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to cast any spell stored in this slot. If you have a high enough ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, you also gain the bonus spells for this spell level. You must use the spell slot as a member of the class in which you can already cast spells of the normal maximum spell level.
*Special*

You can gain this feat multiple times.


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## Shayuri (May 9, 2011)

It doesn't? Hm! Well, no biggy. Like I said, Invisibility is just one of Omega's defenses. Handy, but not by itself essential.

Thanks for the warning though.


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## rangerjohn (May 9, 2011)

Thanks you two, somehow I missed the phrase 'one level higher than you can already cast.


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## Vertexx69 (May 9, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> It doesn't? Hm! Well, no biggy. Like I said, Invisibility is just one of Omega's defenses. Handy, but not by itself essential.
> 
> Thanks for the warning though.



Ditto  hence situational bonus, and sequester should work against see invisibility and true seeing for a couple of reasons: 

1. It isn't an illusion its an abjuration. (In other words, you don't just think I'm invisible, I'm actually wrapped in a protective shell of invisibility.)

2. It specifically says it works against divinations that detect or locate the subject, and it says you become invisible to ALL forms of sight and seeing (except through items). 

3. Its a higher lvl spell than either of those divination spells that detect and/or locate the subject, and an epic lvl item vs non epic lvl spells.

So I'll take a DM ruling on this one, and call it done without any more debate thx


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## rangerjohn (May 9, 2011)

Question on the bite of line of spells.  Can you wear armor in that form and can you use manufactured weapons?


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## Jemal (May 10, 2011)

Vertexx69 said:


> So I'll take a DM ruling on this one, and call it done without any more *kibitzing* thx




A: Very well, we'll leave it to the DM.  If he rules that it works that way, then that's his call, it's his campaign, and I'll be joining you in the 'permanently undetectable by any means other than + 100 spot or Items' club.  

B: I'm going to assume that you don't actually know what kibitzing means, b/c if you do then you're being rude.. not to mention misusing the word.  Kibitzing is when a meddlesome person offers unwanted advice. 
If you consider me meddlesome, that's your perogative, though there are more polite ways to ask someone to stop doing so.  Secondly, I wasnt offering you advice, I was stating my opinions on a rule. and I'll thank you to not try and prevent me from offering my own opinions.


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## Jemal (May 10, 2011)

Rangerjohn - the Bite of X Spells don't actually change you that much.  They make you a bit bulkier, give you hands claws, and alter your face.  They don't mention anywhere in any of them that they give any penalties to the way you normally function (Most transmutations that alter your form make a point of saying things like "equipment that can't be worn melds", "Can't speak", "Can't wield weapons", etc. )


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## rangerjohn (May 10, 2011)

That's what I thought, they're basically turning you into a pseudo-were creature.


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## Nephtys (May 10, 2011)

I would like to apologize to you Dharuk for the complaining that I have done in this thread. I have been petty, unreasonable, and selfish. My only excuse is that I got carried away by enthusiasm for the game. From now on I will keep a more positive tone.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 12, 2011)

Ok, first off, my apologies once more guys. It pains me to sya this so soon after last time, but I got really sick for the last while and haven;t been able to summon up much energy to post.

That being said, I have posted a rogues gallery and started the ingame thread. I would like everybody who wants to start us off to start the roleplaying aspect of their characters after they post, even though I haven't had any chance to look over the final version yet. We can work all that out as we go, I would just like to see us get started.

Nephtys: First off, I do apreciate the apology, and would like to issue one to you as well. I know that working with a concept like yours can be very trying, and I do like to promote original character concepts for this game, But I do also have to play Devil's advocate and I hope that my attempts at balancing characters do not suffer you too much stress. On the other hand though, even without the ability to full round every turn, I still believe you have a very sound character that will prove invaluable to the party. 

Vertexx: Ture seeing beats sequester. It may not say so directly under either spell, but a robe of eyes duplicates the effects of true seeing and that is specifically mentioned by sequester. 

Alright guys, lets see if we can get this moving. I would love to see your characters in action as soon as possible.

Btw, I apologize but I'm still a bit rusty with the posting system and have to research how to put up links. Maybe I'm just tired and can't remember. Either way, I'm sorry to make you search for the rogues gallery and in game thread.

Just so you all know, the name of those threads is DEAD LEGENDS.


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## Nephtys (May 12, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre said:


> Ok, first off, my apologies once more guys. It pains me to sya this so soon after last time, but I got really sick for the last while and haven;t been able to summon up much energy to post.
> 
> ...
> 
> Nephtys: First off, I do apreciate the apology, and would like to issue one to you as well. I know that working with a concept like yours can be very trying, and I do like to promote original character concepts for this game, But I do also have to play Devil's advocate and I hope that my attempts at balancing characters do not suffer you too much stress. On the other hand though, even without the ability to full round every turn, I still believe you have a very sound character that will prove invaluable to the party.




Thank you. 
It's good to see you post again, I hope you're feeling better now. There are still some details I need to finish on the character, but unless we're thrust right into combat I'm pretty much ready to begin the game. 
There was some talk about making two separate groups. Is that still the plan? And in that case, who goes where?


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## ghostcat (May 12, 2011)

Couple of points.

1. After jemal's comments, I have completely reworked my character and now have a Scout(16), Ranger(2), Fighter(1), Dervish(10), Ninja(1).

The character is actually complete. I just have to update the character sheet.

Can I play without a complete character sheet?

2 and more important. 

The character died fighting demons. Although she is not a fanatic, she would likely attack Nephtys' character on sight. So, has anyone any suggestions on how we introduce them so that Ishasha realises that Nephtys' character is not a garden variety demon?


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## Nephtys (May 12, 2011)

ghostcat said:


> Couple of points.
> 2 and more important.
> 
> The character died fighting demons. Although she is not a fanatic, she would likely attack Nephtys' character on sight. So, has anyone any suggestions on how we introduce them so that Ishasha realises that Nephtys' character is not a garden variety demon?




Ironically, my character was also killed by demons. She doesn't really have a high opinion of her own kind at this point, so a little conversation might sort things out enough so they won't kill each other. Maybe your character attacks mine, hopefully doesn't kill her in the surprise round, and then they can talk as they fight. Maybe my character gains the upper hand and shows mercy. Maybe your character gains the upper hand and kills mine. Maybe our summoner intervenes, or maybe not. If we play this out it might turn out to be quite intense and fun. The risk is part of the excitement, though some deux-ex-machina will probably give us both a chance to keep our character alive. If we think of this as a movie it might make a pretty good scene, or insanely cheesy (which can also be fun).


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## Jemal (May 12, 2011)

Also, Albedo's character looks like and was cursed by demons, and Vertexx's is a vampire.  We've got a lot of characters in here that at first glance would appear to be of the 'evil, kill on sight' variety.

My character has the benefit of great knowledge checks, meaning she'll know (For the most part) who and what everybody is.  Perhaps she'll be able to intervene and explain "No wait that giant evil demon thing isn't actually evil.. well, not completely.."


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 13, 2011)

I did state before that submitting what you have and finishing up your sheet while we do initial roleplay is acceptable.

Heres how we are deciding if we are having two parties and who will be in them. So far Shayuri, Vertexx, and Nephtys have posted in the gallery, so they will be in the first party. Anybody wishing to join them can simply post in the rogues gallery and start in on the playing the game thread. Anybody who wants to wait can simply say so and we will start that party off after.

No matter which we do though, I would like to do a simple role call to see where we are at for players.


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## Jemal (May 13, 2011)

Kayla Elzmyr, paragon of virtue, Messenger of the Song, and wholesome good girl has joined the Vampire, Marilith, War-Machine, and Cursed lady.
Hmm.. this should make for some interesting RP


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## rangerjohn (May 13, 2011)

Jemal, how are you a bard and a paladin at the same time?  Bard alignment requirement any nuetral, paladin alignment requirement lawful good.


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## ghostcat (May 13, 2011)

Still around.  Just wondering if we have enough players for two parties. 

If yes, I'll join the second.


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## rangerjohn (May 13, 2011)

Still around, will difinatly be in the second group if there is one.  Have decided on a druid, possibly druid/wizard/mystic theurge.


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## Jemal (May 13, 2011)

As per Kayla's backstory, she used to be a wild, carefree individual but her time at the temple calmed her somewhat.
Started as a CG bard, became LG and became Paladin.  Bards who become lawful don't loose their powers, they just can't progress in the class anymore.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 14, 2011)

K, I consolidated all my my rulings on the first page and am trying to attract more people to fill out the second party. Hopefully we will get enough.


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## Nephtys (May 16, 2011)

I'm done with most of the technical bits on the character, enough that she's ready for combat. I'm still working on the background and the knowlege checks.


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## Jemal (May 18, 2011)

I don't see how this situation can end well with the current party dynamic.

The guards appear to be the rightful law, there is no indication that they aren't, and any attempts to discern anything about them have failed.  Therfore I am bound by paladins code to abide by their laws.  
Albedo's exalted character has similar restrictions, and neither of our characters will allow the guards to be slaughtered because of the pride of a seemingly evil demon.
I have, in fact, gone out of my way metagaming to try and prevent a fight with the marilith allready, but there is no indication that she could be good.  Shahaza claims not to be evil, but her actions are just as bloodthirsty as Dizzy's (Who also seems fairly intent on violence), and so far there's nothing in either of their actions that indicates they're good.

The guards, also, are not helping, as they have shrugged off every offer of compromise and are insistant that the PC's be shackled and arrested.  As I stated before, If there were some way of telling that they're Evil, Kayla would resist them, but she has no reason to believe that.

The ironic part is that if not for the fact that people spent so much time becoming immune to non-lethal forms of combat such as Holds/charms/Grapples/etc, I might have been able to stop it.  

Well, I guess it's up to Neph/Albedo and the DM.


*EDIT: Actually, I do have ONE idea I'm going to try, it's a bit out of character but its' all I can think of.


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## Nephtys (May 18, 2011)

Oh, Shahaza is not actually going to fight Dizzy. At least not long enough to kill her. I'll do the metagamey thing and teleport away. Pride be damned.
But you have to admit there is something very wrong about these guards. They do not respond to diplomacy checks of 50 to 70, they act like they are mind controlled and the officer seems quite insane, evil, or both. It is very unlikely he's working for anything but an evil state. Whatever law they represent is probably not "rightful". Your characters should realise this.
Anyway, Dharuhk has stated he had no problem if we split the group and continued separately. We can still meet up later and compare notes and exchange threats and insults. Could be fun.  But I can't see Shahaza and Dizzy in the same party, that will get old fast.


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## Albedo (May 18, 2011)

Its not like Dizzy is uncompromising on the working with the demon thing, though I did press the issue right off the start in order to get it out of the way so we can start building up party trust. What she was implying to Shahazza was that she didn't care if she FOUGHT with the guards, but wasn't going to let her KILL the guards. 

If Shahazza decided to fight the guards and knock them out or scare them away, it would improve relations with Dizzy. If killing was the only option for Shahazza, then there would be obvious evil tendencies in the future that would prevent them from working together anyways.

As for the issues with the guards/guard leader... it is obvious something is wrong, but to punish and kill the guards who may not be involved would be an evil way to go about it. All they are doing is listening to orders or being controlled.


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## Shayuri (May 18, 2011)

Hee hee

It simplifies things so much when you play a character who is completely singleminded.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 18, 2011)

Wow, things have gotten tense really fast. Most unfortunate.

Jemal: We now have come to something that I really hate about PbP gaming, vaguely worded readied actions. In the future I would prefer a more action specific description of a readied action, because now I have to stop and wait after anybody does ANYTHING and see if you feel like it triggers your readied action. I don't wan't to rag on you or anything, and having readied actions for scenarios like this is reasonable, but I don't want to have an argument with you about what you consider violent everyone time somebody takes an action.

Let me say this now for everyones benefit, when you describe readied actions, please do it off of in game actions so that they have obvious triggers.

So Jemal, does Albedo's actions trigger your readied action?


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## ghostcat (May 18, 2011)

I haven't deliberately been avoiding reading the IC thread, so I am not aware what's actually going on. But was just wondering if this is a good point to introduce rangerjohn's and my characters. As its looks like we are not going to get enough players for a second party.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 18, 2011)

I wouldn't be against it. Worst comes to worst, if some of the party members can't coexist then we can still split into two more stable groups.

Get your characters into the rogues gallery and I'll work you in after the current situation is dealt with.


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## Jemal (May 18, 2011)

Allright, first off, i think it'd be a good idea to throw all the PC's in right now and see how things sort themselves out.

Secondly, Apologies if my actions seem angry, I just tend to get twitchy when inter-party tension rises, and sometimes go a bit overboard trying to head it off.

Thirdly, to your comment about the readied actions, no that won't, it doesn't seem violent to me (Though aggressive, so I can see where it would be a wording problem).
In the future if my readied actions are too vague for you, I'd suggest just making the call yourself and If I don't like it, it's my own fault for not being specific enough. (That's usually the way I deal with it when I'm DMing).


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## Nephtys (May 18, 2011)

Albedo said:


> Its not like Dizzy is uncompromising on the working with the demon thing, though I did press the issue right off the start in order to get it out of the way so we can start building up party trust. What she was implying to Shahazza was that she didn't care if she FOUGHT with the guards, but wasn't going to let her KILL the guards.
> 
> If Shahazza decided to fight the guards and knock them out or scare them away, it would improve relations with Dizzy. If killing was the only option for Shahazza, then there would be obvious evil tendencies in the future that would prevent them from working together anyways.
> 
> As for the issues with the guards/guard leader... it is obvious something is wrong, but to punish and kill the guards who may not be involved would be an evil way to go about it. All they are doing is listening to orders or being controlled.




Point taken, but even if Shahaza did knock them out (at this point I don't think it's possible to scare them off) it would get in the way of your plan to get arrested and interrogated so you could ask for directions. But, reading the game thread, I guess you changed your plans. So, I'll just go with the flow and do what comes naturally.

Oh, and btw, I enjoy the conflict we got going. I have no problem letting the tensions continue for a while as long as they don't take over too much of the story.


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## ghostcat (May 18, 2011)

Ishasha is now up in the Rogue's gallery.


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## Vertexx69 (May 18, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre said:


> Wow, things have gotten tense really fast. Most unfortunate.



Well, hellacious combat monster characters do tend to come with monstrous egos, so its not that unexpected. Though we do seem to have a decent cross section of the personality spectrum represented so far, from alien and aloof to laid back to seething.  Should be interesting.

And those names are getting really close to the point of confusion.


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## WarlockLord (May 18, 2011)

Are you still recruiting? I may throw my drow anima mage into the ring.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 18, 2011)

Yes I am. Welcome aboard.


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## Jemal (May 18, 2011)

RE: IC occurence

Well now, THAT's interesting... Though not unexpected.

Since Shahaza's technically neutral, she didn't need a save as the primary effect does nothing to her either way(I just didn't know that in character), and I was hoping Dizzy would choose to fail as proof that she's good.  Didn't realize she allready had it cast. 
Good to know about the guard leader, if he's that evil, then that makes decision making regarding him much easier.
I'm going to wait before I post any further, Kayla's been doing a lot lately, so I'll wait a while and let others respond.


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## WarlockLord (May 19, 2011)

Thanks.  I have exams next week, so is it ok if i hold off on chargen until those are over?


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 19, 2011)

WarlockLord said:


> Thanks. I have exams next week, so is it ok if i hold off on chargen until those are over?




Take all the time you need.

ghostcat: If you are ready to join, give me the word and I'll insert you now.

Everybody: Alrighty, we are really getting into the swing of things, so I want everyone to make sure their characters are finalized. Post here if you're completely done, just so I know. I'll look over the sheets when I get a chance in order to check for errors.


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## rangerjohn (May 19, 2011)

*Arcane Heirophant*

Jemal, can you give me some suggestions on the following?

Elwynn of the Source

Druid 4 Wizard 3 Arcane Heirophant 10 Druid 3 Arcane Heirophant 10

with these probable attributes:

Str:16 +5 inherent 

Dex: 10 +5 inherent 

Con: 18 +5 inherent 

Int: 18 +5 inherent

Wis: 18 +5 inherent

Cha: 10 +5 inherent


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## Jemal (May 19, 2011)

Well that would depend on what type of character you want.. Buff mage, Dual-caster, or Companion Buffer (The arcane Heirophant's companion familiar can get fairly powerful)
For example, with your listed progression, you would be an equivalent 23 wizard caster/27 Druid Caster with 27 levels of wild shape and the animal companion of a 27th level druid with all of the familiar abilities.  It pretty much comes down to what kind of style you want to go for.  

One amusing side bar: If you decide to go with the companion route, I might suggest checking out the Beast Master from complete adventurer, not a caster but gets some good beast buffs, and multiple companions.


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## rangerjohn (May 19, 2011)

He would probably have enough slots to do both.  But his main combat tactic would be buffing his wild shape, shield, greater mage armor, bite of spells etc.


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## Jemal (May 19, 2011)

I'd suggest dropping some levels for Nature's Warrior (Complete Warrior).  It's a 5 lvl prestige class, gives full wild shape, 2 spellcasting, and three 'nature's armaments'.  It's also full bab.

How bout:
Druid3/Wizard3/ArcaneHeirophant10/NaturesWarrior5/ArcaneHeirophant9
Would give you @20: BAB 14, Fort 11, Ref 6, Will 14, 
Also gives Druid casting 24, wiz casting 22, Wild shape 27

I could also suggest things like Warshaper(Comp War) and Master of Many Forms(Comp Adventurer), but they both have the same problem : While they give some nice bonuses to your alternate forms, they don't give any casting increase or Wild shape HD.
I also know some nice Arcane buff classes, but they wouldn't give you any druid casting or Wild shape increase.


**EDIT: I'd say look through the MM and ELH and see what creatures you can find that you'd like to wild shape into with HD between 20-27, list a couple of them, and then decide how much you're willing to give up to buff other things.  The primary decision is what do you want to be your main form? (Also don't forget to look at dragons/etc, there are epic feats that allow you to Wild Shape into them, or Master of Many Forms if you're willing to give  up some wild shape HD and casting)
As far as Casting goes, if you're just using it for self buffs, then so long as you have maxed casting (~20) then you'll be fine, meaning loosing some caster level for other things wouldn't impact you all that greatly.

I believe Shayuri's also fairly knowledgable on Shifters, playing one in my Epic Campaign.


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## Shayuri (May 20, 2011)

All right, I've read the Natural Spell description and nothing there says it's limited to druid magic...so yeah, get it. Druidic wildshape, without MMoF or epic feats, is not actually terrifically great for combat, but there are some good forms snuck in there.

Giant Octopus is nice, for example. Use Fly to circumvent its crappy land movement score. The elemental forms are also useful, especially since you can get Huge forms which have DR, and movement modes that are very nice.

My suggestion to you is this. Plot out three or four shapes you'll be using frequently. Work out how each one will modify your combat stats...Str, Dex and Con, AC, saves and Init and so on. Make a spot on your sheet to write all that down. Then when you change into a dire tiger, you'll be able to tell very easily what your claw to hit bonus is (your BAB + your str mod adjusted by the dire tiger form). Remember that your physical stats really need not be any higher than 10, since you'll probably be spending most of your time in other shapes anyway. Oh, Con should be higher though, cuz your Hit Points stay the same regardless of form. Pump Con in your base form. Get it decently high, because you'll be spending more time in melee than most wizards.


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## rangerjohn (May 20, 2011)

Those are base stats plus books.  Level adj and enhancements have not been applied.  Would the bite of line of spells adjust the animals base stats?


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## Shayuri (May 20, 2011)

If memory serves, those are enhancement bonuses. So they'd not stack with magic items.


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## rangerjohn (May 20, 2011)

I didn't ask about items, I asked about an animal's/elemental's/dragon's base stats.


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## Shayuri (May 20, 2011)

The Bite spells are bonuses to your stats. Enhancement bonuses.

As to "base stats" I don't know if that's different from "stats" or not. 

If your Strength is 12, the Bite spell will change it. If your Strength is 16 the Bite will change it by the same amount.

Just remember that when you Wildshape, your "base" stat becomes the average stat for your shape. Then you apply bonuses (like a Bite spell) to that. Clearer?


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## Jemal (May 20, 2011)

your BASE stat changes, and you loose racial modifiers, but Inherent, Enhancement, and Level bonuses all apply to the new form if possible.

The bite spells are Enhancement bonuses and would still apply (Though as mentioned before, they do not stack with other Enhancements such as from Items).

For example, using the stat examples you provided: 
Str:16 +5 inherent 
Dex: 10 +5 inherent 
Con: 18 +5 inherent 

If you were to use Bite of the WearBear(The best of the bunch), you would gain +16 Str, +2 dex, +8 con.
If you were to change into a Hydra (for example), you would gain its base physical stats: Str 23, Dex 12, Con 20
Your end stats would be: 
STR: 23 base + 5 Inherent + 16 Enhancement = 44
Dex: 12 base + 5 Inherent + 2 Enhancement = 19
Con: 20 base + 5 Inherent + 8 Enhancement = 33

Also note that if the new forms stat is LOWER than your current stat, it still changes (So for example if you were to change into something with a Con of 12, yoru base con would reduce to 12 before adding Inherent and Enhancement.

As Shayuri pointed out, it's usually easiest to pick several forms and note the relevant changes to your abilities for each.  (Using the above Hydra Example, your changes would be STR + 7, Dex +2 , Con + 2)


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## rangerjohn (May 20, 2011)

Except you say the hydra has a dex of 12 then give it a 10 in the example?


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## Jemal (May 20, 2011)

Typos happen to the best of us.  It hath been corrected.


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## rangerjohn (May 20, 2011)

*Elwynn's HD rolls*

Elwynn's base hps.

I give up!  My luck with dice rollers has struck again.  I would never be able to survive this with my luck.  Much less as a melee character.  Come on 14 rolls of two or below?!


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## Shayuri (May 20, 2011)

rangerjohn said:


> Elwynn's base hps.
> 
> I give up!  My luck with dice rollers has struck again.  I would never be able to survive this with my luck.  Much less as a melee character.  Come on 14 rolls of two or below?!




Hmm...not as bad as you think. Here.

Averages:
3d4 = 7.5
19d6 = 66.5
2d8 = 9
5d10 = 27.5
+8
Average result of all: 118.5

You're only a few points down. Slap a decent Con bonus on there and you're in business.


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## rangerjohn (May 20, 2011)

What happens when I start rolling ones and twos to hit?  The best con I can have is 33  thats 11* 30 =330 +111= 441 for a melee character with low ac?


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## Shayuri (May 20, 2011)

If you roll 1's and 2's to hit, then you'll miss. Happens to the best of us. 

441HP is right on par with the rest of us though. More than Omega has by a comfortable amount.

And it's not like you'll be fighting alone. Relax...we've got your back.

Oh, and I wouldn't worry about AC. You have the potential for some catastrophic AC's. As in, very high.

If you REALLY are worried, max out your Knowledge: Nature ranks and get the Dragon Wild Shape epic feat.

Your AC troubles will be over.


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## Vertexx69 (May 20, 2011)

rangerjohn said:


> What happens when I start rolling ones and twos to hit?  The best con I can have is 33  thats 11* 30 =330 +111= 441 for a melee character with low ac?



For some perspective Hanshu is melee and only has 153 hp, since he doesn't have a con score.


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## rangerjohn (May 20, 2011)

I'm worried about that combined with a low touch ac.  Most of my defense would come from armor, shield, and natural armor.  All of which don't apply to touch ac.  Matter of fact the only form I can think of that wouldn't be don't roll a one to hit is air elemental.


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## Shayuri (May 20, 2011)

Touch attacks are far from common. And you'll have dozens of spells handy to help protect you. Trust me, this is a powerful character. A little ingenuity between forms and spells will get you past most challenges.


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## Vertexx69 (May 20, 2011)

Epic lvl is where the 2 or 20 philosophy comes into play, where enemies need either a 20 to hit you or only a 2. 

A couple things I used though are the augment crystals from MIC: the greater arrow deflection shield crystal for +5 ac vs any ranged (including touch), and the greater armor crystal of screening for a -10 penalty to incorporeal attacks (including touch) against you.


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## rangerjohn (May 20, 2011)

Won't be able to use crystals in wild shape.  Any weapon they are attached to would be absorbed into my body.


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## ghostcat (May 20, 2011)

Anyone have any suggestions for my fourth Favoured Enemy. I already have orc, outsider(evil) and undead, which come directly from my history. Problem is said history does not imply a fourth. So anything I choose, will be sort of a wildcard.

[MENTION=6668704]Dharuhk Svahre[/MENTION]. Ready when you are. Can you let me know where to start as I deliberately haven't read the IC thread so far. Also. What are we doing about mumdane equipment; eg. rope, iron spikes, water skins, etc. Are we supposed to select it or are we just using if we need it we have it approach?


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## rangerjohn (May 20, 2011)

Shayuri, could you make some scaled down items for my character?  I won't need armor, I'll be casting epic mage armor, or str bite of the bear.


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## Shayuri (May 20, 2011)

Scaled down in what way? If you want some items you can use in wildshape, just buy a Wilding Clasp for 4000gp...1 per item to be used.

You'll look awfully weird in wildshape...but it'll be quite effective.


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## rangerjohn (May 20, 2011)

Scaled down as in 30th level wealth, as opposed to 40th.  Like your shifter in Jemal's game.  Also Elwynn will have craft wondrous item feat.


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## Vertexx69 (May 21, 2011)

A 4000g wilding clasp on an animated shield keeps it by your side regardless of what shape you are in, and the +2 beastskin armor enchancement lets your armor morph around whatever form you're in too, putting both crystals back in the game


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## rangerjohn (May 21, 2011)

Beastskin would be at the cost of arcane spell failure.  I'm a wizard/druid.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 21, 2011)

You're in ghostcat, you can read the IC thread now. Btw, as a hunter/protector of people who lived on a plains my best recomendation for your last favored enemy is magical beasts.

Everyone in Game: btw, you guys seemed to have stalled out without making a decision. Somebody decide where you guys are going and post it so I can continue this thing


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## Vertexx69 (May 21, 2011)

rangerjohn said:


> Beastskin would be at the cost of arcane spell failure.  I'm a wizard/druid.



Thats where the lovely +1 twilight armor enhancement that lowers ASF by 10% comes into play, which gives you the option of leather or leafweave for a couple extra points of AC.

@ ghostcat - I'd go with something more off the wall like oozes or aberrations.

@ Dharuhk - I'd say in the opposite direction from the castle a few miles or so.


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## Jemal (May 21, 2011)

> Everyone in Game: btw, you guys seemed to have stalled out without making a decision. Somebody decide where you guys are going and post it so I can continue this thing



Thought I allready did, I was waiting for confirmation that we arrived safely without the guards interfering.
I'll assume from this statement that we can get away safely, and that the conversations everybody's having are off in the woods, since I doubt everybody's just standing around yacking and waiting for the guards to recover.

Dharuhk - Also, this is something I should've mentioned earlier.
Are you going to be RPing my Intelligent Rod, or can I do it? I realize I've allready spoken for him once, but as the DM it is your right to run any/all intelligent items and NPCs if you wish.  I just figured I'd find out now before it comes up again.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 23, 2011)

Jemal: You can roleplay the item for now, though I may step in at some point.


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## rangerjohn (May 23, 2011)

I withdraw my application from this game.  Another game closing today made me realize this is a poor medium for roleplay.  In nearly a decade, not one game I have been in has completed.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 25, 2011)

hate to lose you, but if thats what you feel is best.


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## Jemal (May 26, 2011)

So, what kind of scroll can be seen by detect magic but not Analyze Dweomer...
Thoughts anybody?

The only thing I can think of is an Artifact..


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## Shayuri (May 26, 2011)

Artifacts usually don't radiate magic either...

But there's nothing to say they -can't-. I suppose technically Analyze Dweomer doesn't detect magical radiation. It merely tells the caster what the functions of a magic item are. Maybe protection from Analyze Dweomer is built into it somehow. Detect Magic, which provides much more vague answers, wasn't seen as a threat, so they didn't bother blocking it.


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## Albedo (May 26, 2011)

First off, the very last line of Analyze Dweomer spcifies it doesn't work on artifacts. Secondly detect magic specifically has an aura strength FOR artifacts, which just happens to be overwhelming. Its probably a normal (if you can call them that ) artifact.


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## Jemal (May 28, 2011)

Neph - Portable holes only function while spread open on a flat surface.  There's no 'partially open', it's all or nothing.

Also, Kayla won't be letting you leave with the prisoner when she doesn't trust you not to slaughter or torture him (Especially after your statement about it providing 'low amusement').  If you intend to force your way out, we'll have to figure out what happens round by round.


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## Nephtys (May 29, 2011)

Jemal- What's done is done. Shahaza has already left, unless Kayla can turn back time there's nothing to figure out.

SRD 3.5:
*Portable Hole*

A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains.
The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process.
Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, plane shift; Price 20,000 gp.


"When opened fully" it is 6 feet in diameter. But why would it say that unless it can be opened less than fully. If it could only be opened fully it would say "When Open". 

It can be opened on any surface. It doesn't have to be perfectly flat (says nothing about that) nor does it have to be 6 feet in diameter. She could easily open in on her flat stomach or on the side of a scimitar.


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## Jemal (May 29, 2011)

As far as the portable hole is concerned, I believe you're misreading it, but that's up to the DM to decide.

As far as the "I posted it so its done", That's a little bit of god-moding you got going on there.  

When posting actions in an interactive game, you can't just post yourself an hour into the future and expect that nobody else has a chance to respond.

For example: 
If we're gonna play like that, I could post a couple pages worth of what I do to find you, get the portable hole from you, and knock you out without ever entering combat, and you wouldn't be able to stop me b/c "what's done is done"


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## Nephtys (May 29, 2011)

If my actions in any way involved you then you would certainly get the chance to respond. In this case they do not. But I see the Dm has already approved your action and dismissed mine, so there's no point discussing who is right. 
 But if we're going to have every post in this game include only 6 seconds worth of actions this game will never get anywhere. And if we keep bickering and second-guessing each others then maybe it shouldn't. There are a thousand ways your character could have got the information she wants without antagonizing mine. I can not justify Shahaza submitting to Kayla's claims to authority. She wouldn't do that even if her alignment was LG and certainly not when it's on the darker side of neutral. After having been physically assaulted like that she can not turn the other cheek (I doubt any character in this party would). So she's going to leave the group as an enemy. I can't play it any other way. Would you?


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## Dharuhk Svahre (May 29, 2011)

Nephtys: Ok, I've got a few things to say on this matter.

Step 1: I said your teleport FAILED, not that I dismissed it. Do not think party bickering has anything to do with it. I'd appreciate a little more respect than that please. 

Step 2: If you want to play neutral, it might help if you change your alignment to neutral instead of leaving it LE. 

Step 3: You were not in any way physically assaulted, you just choose to see it that way. Now what Jemal did is not NICE, and definatly not party friendly, but if you choose to see it in that extreme of a way its you thats being uncooperative. 

Step 4: I'm not gonna say that this issue is all on you, it isn't. Ok, the fact that you are evil really doesn't help things, but moving past that. To make this situation work you guys need to give some ground here. You say that Jemal could have gotten the information thousands of other ways, but you attempted to teleport away with the prisoner even after you knew that the other party members were not done with him. 

Considering you knew you would get access to the prisoner again later and were pretty much done with him at the moment, that was you being uncooperative. Not your character. Not your alignment. This may be my misconception, but you seemed to be responding more to Jemal's post rather than his in game actions. 

Now I am not chewing you out as if this is all your fault. This is more of a response to you posting that you CANNOT cooperate with your fellow party members. And a little bit because you implied that I am picking sides. If you can't sort actual in game information from bickering then something has to be fixed.

Despite all I've said, if you want to go it alone, feel free. Thats part of the point of being able to do what you want.

ALL: In order to make this work, you guys need to shift your prospectives a little. If you guys want to party, and not break into smaller groups, you need to remember that your characters need to BELIEVE it is in their best interests to do so. That will allow some compromises that you wouldn't normally be made. You can go for more of the, "I wouldn't put up with that usually, but I need you for now so I will get you for it later" or "I need his help to destroy a greater evil so I should put up with it for now" mentalitys. That would really assist the party in moving forward and getting around the evil/good wall you seem to be ramming your heads into.


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## Shayuri (May 29, 2011)

Would I? Yep, I totally would.

Give a little slack, get a little slack. Name of the game.

Were I completely and slavishly devoted to the concept of my character, I'd be floating off on my own over the ocean after having blasted a library into pieces and located an atlas with a big "YOU ARE HERE" tag.

But since my character serves me, and not the other way around, I decided to mitigate that basic goal in favor of actually, y'know, having fun. I can justify it all I want. Maybe Omega's discovering that it likes having people around that it isn't compelled to vaporize. That's a new thing for it. With that, its normal drive to fulfill objectives is...less than it might otherwise be. Especially since its current objective is self-administered and admittedly rather vague, based on oodles of missing information and attempts to shove round commands into square circumstances.

In short, its objectives are flawed, and Omega knows it. So it's hanging with you guys while it tries to figure out how to fix that. Omega wasn't designed to figure things out though...it was designed to go and go and go until it couldn't go anymore. 

...

As for our marilith, nothing wrong here that a round of chill-pills can't fix. Even if you want to play her really really evil, even evil people will cooperate with others if it serves their interests. And this dude she's kidnapping...it doesn't seem like he's so valuable that she'd throw away goodwill and trust just because she wants to take him on a magic flying voyage. If the mouthy bard wants him, let her have him! You get brownie points for being so kind and reasonable...all for giving something up that you don't even care about. It's win win. And by win win, I mean you win...twice. That's the Evil way.


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## rangerjohn (May 29, 2011)

Shayuri, as an unbiased outside observer, what goodwill are you talking about?
Except for Omega, who just doesn't care, everyone has been either standoffish or outright hostile.  Now as DS said the maralith isn't innocent in this, but on the other hand, the rest have more than contributed to the problem.  Now it maybe that the personalities just cannot mesh.


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## Shayuri (May 30, 2011)

The good will that any self-serving character would want to try to be building up as soon as it became clear that these entities were all too potent to make it economical to try to dominate by force, or dispose of by guile.

Mind you, I'm speaking from the point of view of an intelligent, long-term thinking evil entity here. Make allies of them, with oneself as the organizing force of course, so as to have a marginally superior position. Then, over time, make them dependent on your leadership and your aid so that you become "too big to fail" essentially. At that point, they'll keep supporting you even through qualms. 

It's that, escape, or try to fight...and you can't beat them all. Escape is possible, but it still leaves you at the bottom of the heap.

Just saying, even if you want to play total selfishness, there's still excellent reasons to try to get along.


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## rangerjohn (May 30, 2011)

You said lose goodwill.  At this point there no is  goodwill to lose, they're waiting for her to make one mistake, so they will have an excuse to kill her.  At this point I don't seeing her establishing goodwill without bending over backwards.  OOC: a lawful good act, something so out of character it isn't something likely to happen.


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## Jemal (May 30, 2011)

I would prefer to keep from causing fights (Both in AND out of character), but I have tried to be as party friendly as possible in the past(with the exception of the outburst in the square), and my attempts have been either ignored or dismissed.  Kayla has done as much as she could to attempt to stave off fights between the legends, and tried to get them to come together to understand what's going on.
Now, I understand that these are all epic characters with egos to match (And some are "not-so-good"), so it's kind of understandable, but there's only so much leeway I could give.  

Shahaza attempted to just take off with my only readily available source of information after refusing to allow us access to him (while making a joke about how the only reason to torture him would be for amusement).  Then there's the fact that this occured in the middle of what I had assumed was going to be a "party-chat time" to attempt to sort out how we all feel about each other and build some trust.  But then, two of the party members decided "workign with these people is a waste of my time, I'm going to go it solo", and tried to leave.  I didn't try to stop Dizzy b/c I had no reason, but when an evil demon chick tries to take off with our only prisoner after makign a torture joke, I'm allready stretching the meta-gaming "don't fight other PC's" to the limit when my Lawful Good Paladin hasn't smote the vile beast down allready.  

If Shahaza weren't a PC, we'd have been in combat rounds long ago, and definitely NOT because I'm 'waiting for her to make a mistake'.  I think I've gone out of my way to avoid confrontation before this.


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## Jemal (May 30, 2011)

I've tried to come up with a way to resolve the issues without force, but the only thing I can think of is one of us backing down completely and allowing the other to be dominant, and I don't see that happening...  

I'm open to suggestions.


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## rangerjohn (May 30, 2011)

From my previous post:  Now it maybe that the personalities just cannot mesh.


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## Albedo (May 30, 2011)

Seriously rangerjohn, it is not productive in any way,shape, or form to go into a game you decided NOT to be a part of and attempt to convince the players that they can't work together and shouldn't even try.


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## Vertexx69 (May 30, 2011)

I was also working under the presumption of the lodge being the "getting to know each other" time instead of the "can we eat her" time. 

Going into a game knowing who your character was going to be loosely grouped with, should have at least mildly flavored the personalities of the characters. Specifically choosing to make snap judgments, and taking everything said as some personal insult or slight is not the way to start any game. We have a vampire, a mutant, a construct, a demon and a pair of human women, so a bit more leeway than usual is going to be needed.

I'm trying to have Hanshu explain it IC, in a way that can't be seen as some sort of retreat, and to just chill folks out, so everyone can have a chance to play with the meat book.  

And seeing it from outside the game, that this guard is completely useless is just funny as far as I'm concerned. We could have been resurrected in the middle of a town as some sort of magical urban pacification weapons, so that plan just backfired big time! Going all rampagy isn't going to help anyone.


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## WarlockLord (May 30, 2011)

I'm going to bow out.  You all have fun.  Not really too sure how epic works anyway.


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## Jemal (Jul 1, 2011)

Dharuhk, I need to know your take on the tarrasque's Carapace. It says it reflects "Rays, lines, cones, and even magic missiles". Now, to most people that's fairly straight forward - It reflects Rays, Lines, Cones, and Magic Missiles. But I've heard some arguments over the fact that it says "EVEN" magic missiles, meaning it affects more things.. though its always vague on what those 'other' things might be.

So I figured I'd just ask.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 2, 2011)

Its not great wording in any way shape or form, but I'm gonna go with It reflects Rays, Lines, Cones, and Magic Missiles.


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## Shayuri (Jul 2, 2011)

I support this interpretation, as it hopefully means that it doesn't deflect Eldritch Blast, unless they're in the form of a ray, line, or cone...and thus Omega is not about to get a face full of his own acid.


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## Jemal (Jul 2, 2011)

Yeah, that'd suck allright.

Good news is it means I can affect the thing directly, and don't have to use my 'backup-vs-magic immune' strategy.


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## Jemal (Jul 8, 2011)

Allright, couple questions about the not purple worm.

Does it have any other visible appendages besides the wings?
Does its tail appear to have a stinger?
What size is it?
What about it makes me think it's NOT a purple worm if it so closely resembles one?  What's different?  Is it just a gaint worm that happens to be purple, or does it actually look like a 'purple worm'?


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 8, 2011)

1. There are no other appendages, however there do appear to be hook like claws protruding from the end of the creature's wings.

2. Yes, the tail has a stinger, just like a purple worm.

3. Colossal

4. You know that the creature very closely resembles a 'purple worm'. But you know that it is not a purple worm in the same way that a well trained person can tell apart breeds of cats.


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## ghostcat (Jul 10, 2011)

[MENTION=6668704]Dharuhk Svahre[/MENTION] After rolling something like 40 dice, I have come to the conclusion that the ENWorld Dice Roller interface is a bit unwieldy for a two-weapon epic fighter. Either that or I don't know how to use it properly. Anyway, is it OK if I use Invisible Castle for dice rolls?


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 10, 2011)

sounds good to me. And fyi, you can skirmish a purple worm. Its referring to things like oozes that don't actually have any definable organs.


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## Jemal (Jul 12, 2011)

Shayuri - You're warlock 30, your SR check should be at +30 but you listed+20 in the game.  Typo?


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## Shayuri (Jul 12, 2011)

Oops! Yep, my bad!


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## Jemal (Jul 12, 2011)

also too bad I dont' have any way to chain/share personal spells, I'm sure you'd love a +10 on top of that wouldn't ya? 

I originally thought Assay Resistance was targeted and lowered the targets resistance, but then my roomate pointed out that it's personal and raises my chance to overcome it.  Oh well, not as party friendly as I'd hoped, but still useful.

OH, while we're on the subject, Remember that i struck the worm with a targeting ray, so all ranged attacks against it get a +6 Insight bonus to hit.  Not just my attacks.


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## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 14, 2011)

[MENTION=30034]ghostcat[/MENTION]: So it appears that your low movement speed is going to be a real hindrance to your character, so I've decided to step in and give you some advice.

Simply put, I want you to do four things to fix up your character.

1: Get rid of your current boots entirely. 
2: Buy Boots of Swiftness for 256,000gp
3: Buy Wings of Flying for 54,000gp
4: Remove the resistance quality you put on your ring and put it on a vest of resistance to save you 50,000 gold.

Should you do these 4 things, the boots of swiftness will double your movement speed to 130ft when you are walking.

The wings are flying are like your boots, but they do not have a limit to how long you can use them, which grants the additional benefit that you don't have to turn them off so you don't need to waste a standard action in order to use them. Paired with the boots, you would have a fly speed of 190ft (good).


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## ghostcat (Jul 15, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre said:


> [MENTION=30034]ghostcat[/MENTION]: So it appears that your low movement speed is going to be a real hindrance to your character, so I've decided to step in and give you some advice.
> 
> Simply put, I want you to do four things to fix up your character.
> 
> ...




Yep. Didn't realise that a 50' movement would be so sluggish in an Epic game. I must admit I was surprised when I suddenly found myself so far behind the action. 

I'll make the changes. Do you want me to revise my last action?


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## Jemal (Jul 15, 2011)

two things ghostcat.
First, your current movement's 65, not 50.
Second, you could've charged the purple worm anyways.  It was 100' from you, for which a double move/charge would've been sufficient.


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## ghostcat (Jul 15, 2011)

Jemal said:


> two things ghostcat.
> First, your current movement's 65, not 50.
> Second, you could've charged the purple worm anyways.  It was 100' from you, for which a double move/charge would've been sufficient.




Thanks for that Jemal. I'm not used to High Level games and I have more to learn that I realised.

How do you get 65' movement? I work it as 30' [basic] +20' [Enhancement:scout]. I know a 2nd level Dervish gets _Fast Movement_ but I thought _Enhancement_ bonuses don't stack.


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## Jemal (Jul 16, 2011)

That would be my bad, I thought the fast movement was unnamed like the barbarians, didn't realize it was enhancement.


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## ghostcat (Jul 17, 2011)

Dharuhk Svahre said:


> [MENTION=30034]ghostcat[/MENTION]: So it appears that your low movement speed is going to be a real hindrance to your character, so I've decided to step in and give you some advice.
> 
> Simply put, I want you to do four things to fix up your character.
> 
> ...




[MENTION=6668704]Dharuhk Svahre[/MENTION]. I have finally got round to looking at this and there are a few problems.

1 - As I told Jemel, Scout _Fast Movement_ and Dervish _Fast Moevement_ are both enhancement bonuses and don't stack. So Ishasha's base movement is 50' which will double to 100'.

2 - As far as I can tell, fly speed is a fixed 60' and doesn't stack with the characters base speed. This will give a flying speed of 60', the same as the winged boots.

3 - Wings of Flying are classed as a cloak, which uses the back slot. This is already in use.

Changing the Boots to _Boots of Swiftness_ and *Step 4* still makes sense. Wings instead of winged boots maybe not. In fact sticking the wings back on the boots only costs 24K.

Comments.


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## Jemal (Jul 18, 2011)

flight speed should still be affected by anything that increases your speed so long as it doesn't state in increases your "LAND" speed (Which several do).

Also what's yer back slot?  You could add the wings to it, or swap it to a different slot if applicable.


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## ghostcat (Jul 18, 2011)

Jemal said:


> flight speed should still be affected by anything that increases your speed so long as it doesn't state in increases your "LAND" speed (Which several do).
> 
> Also what's yer back slot?  You could add the wings to it, or swap it to a different slot if applicable.




Currently Ishasha's back slot is taken up with:

```
Cloak of Defence (326,000)
- Mantal of Epic Spell Resistance +40 (290,000)
- Displacement (Minor) (24,000)
- 50% Combo Charge (12,000)
```

This could be changed to:

```
Cloak of Defence (407,000)
- Mantal of Epic Spell Resistance +40 (290,000)
- Displacement (Minor) (24,000)
- Wings of Flying (54,000)
- 50% Combo Charge (39,000)
```

Even with the extra funds released by DS' changes, I still can't afford this. I could release sufficient funds by getting ride of my _Obsidian Steed_. Still if I can fly all day at a speed faster then a steed then I don't need a warhorse.


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## Jemal (Sep 5, 2011)

hey, back from the vaca with a new compy, and ready to rejoin assuming you guys are still going and still want me.


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## Shayuri (Sep 5, 2011)

The GM seems to have vanished.


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## Jemal (Sep 5, 2011)

yeah I noticed he hasn't logged for as long as i've been gone.. weird and saddening.


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