# Obi-Wan Kenobi (spoilers)



## Davies

The animation when Leia's little droid wakes up and sees her situation is incredibly good at conveying Lola's sheer, "WHAAAAA?!" moment. I hope we get to see more of her.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

I am happy to see how Leia knows Obi-wan and explains why her ship would be caught near Tatooine and why she would send her "Help Me" message to him in the original movie.


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## Davies

So he visited this place and he _still_ thought Luke would never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy than Mos Eisley?


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## pukunui

I enjoyed that very much!

I assume the Grand Inquisitor survives, since he appears later on in Rebels.


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## trappedslider

Can't wait for the lego star wars skywalker saga character pack from this show!


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## MarkB

Having Obi-Wan meet Leia does make sense of one minor comtinuity blip in A New Hope, where Leia knows him by that name when Luke mentions him.

With Qui-Gon heavily featured in the opening recap, I'm really hoping we get an appearance from Liam Neeson in Force Ghost form at some point.


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## John R Davis

Warhammer40Kenobi!


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## RuinousPowers

I do like the restraint in lightsaber usage from Kenobi, but the series feels very "by the numbers". At least they got off Tatooine fast.


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## John R Davis

Plus Alderaan is very pretty. I hope nothing bad happens to it!


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## wicked cool

i found this to be a mixed bag

the good
Ewan picks up right where he left off
set pieces-
owen
bail
kumail-hope we see him again. he played a strange part well 

the bad 
the main plot-hes a jedi master and he takes barely any precautions. the rooftop scenes where the princess is running around . this felt like saturday morning television or something i would watch  the olsen twins did on full house. it was really really bad 

the acting of the inquisitors-especially Reva. Reva has to be one of the more annoying characters ever created for star wars and acting was horrible  

the acting of the young jedi-seen this before in the cartoons and this was bad as well

these are people living in a tougher society than most of us live in and yet none would survive in 2022. yes its tevelevision and yes its star wars but this is well below boba/Mando


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## John R Davis

Yeah I thought Reva was a terrible character and even worse actor. 
Tika the Jawa was awesome.


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## trappedslider

John R Davis said:


> Plus Alderaan is very pretty. I hope nothing bad happens to it!


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## DeviousQuail

Obi-wan is clearly trying to get the rust off in these opening 2 episodes. I like that. It really does help paint the picture of him not being the man he used to be. However, I do hope he gets his mojo back soon because I want some more lightsaber action.

There are two things in these episodes that took me out of the show. First, the clone trooper vet asking for change felt way too real. His appearance and Obi-wan's reaction to him was on a different level compared to the rest of the show. Just a huge moment of sadness and regret and a bunch of other feelings. I liked it but it felt like a scene from a different show. Second, my 4-year old is as big as Leia. She has multiple chase scenes and these grown-ass adults have a hard time catching her. It's embarrassing.


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## MarkB

DeviousQuail said:


> Obi-wan is clearly trying to get the rust off in these opening 2 episodes. I like that. It really does help paint the picture of him not being the man he used to be. However, I do hope he gets his mojo back soon because I want some more lightsaber action.



They set it up nicely, both in the Inquisitor's speech about how anyone who's still a Jedi will effectively hunt themselves, so Obi-wan's had to bury that side of himself in order to survive, and in his own obvious guilt over Anakin that's made him lose faith in the Jedi code. I think it's still going to be quite a journey for him to come back from that.


DeviousQuail said:


> There are two things in these episodes that took me out of the show. First, the clone trooper vet asking for change felt way too real. His appearance and Obi-wan's reaction to him was on a different level compared to the rest of the show. Just a huge moment of sadness and regret and a bunch of other feelings. I liked it but it felt like a scene from a different show.



It felt very much in keeping with the rest of what Obi-wan was going through to me. He's got to have a lot of mixed feelings about the clones after having led so many of them in battle. At the same time, I couldn't help wondering whether the clone's Order 66 compulsion was still in there, and if he'd turn murderous in an instant if he caught a glimpse of Obi-wan's lightsaber.


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## pukunui

My 10 yo thought Leia was a bit small. I can’t find any info on the actress. I enjoyed her sassy, precocious performance, though.

My only quibble was that I thought Anakin = Vader was meant to be a secret. I wouldn’t have thought that even the inquisitors would know. (I understand Obi-Wan knows because he hears Anakin being called Vader in the temple recordings.)


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## MarkB

pukunui said:


> My 10 yo thought Leia was a bit small. I can’t find any info on the actress. I enjoyed her sassy, precocious performance, though.



Yeah, she's definitely bringing the Leia. I just wonder if they can bring her through all this close contact with Jedi and Inquisitors without playing up the fact that she's strong in the Force too. They've already hinted at it with her almost-supernatural insight into other peoples' personality.


pukunui said:


> My only quibble was that I thought Anakin = Vader was meant to be a secret. I wouldn’t have thought that even the inquisitors would know. (I understand Obi-Wan knows because he hears Anakin being called Vader in the temple recordings.)



Was it a secret? Tarkin's well aware that he used to be a Jedi (he calls him the last remnant of the Jedi order in A New Hope) and Palpatine has him leading troops against the Jedi before he ever puts on the mask. I think it's just that Anakin Skywalker is a forgotten identity by the time of the original trilogy, and any of the rank-and-file would know that deadnaming Darth Vader is a fast way to get Force choked.


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## pukunui

Tarkin knew Vader was once a Jedi but that doesn’t meant he knew that Vader is Anakin. 

Anyway, it was a minor quibble.

My daughters and I all loved the part where Obi-Wan was talking to Leia about Padme. That was really poignant.

One thing I will say: I never expected to see Flea in Star Wars! That was a surprise.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

I wonder how many years it will take before the actress playing young Leia understands how important her role is in the canon? We also know how badly fame effects some child actors, so I hope she has a strong family and team around her to prevent that.


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## trappedslider

The sass is strong with this one.



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I wonder how many years it will take before the actress playing young Leia understands how important her role is in the canon? We also know how badly fame effects some child actors, so I hope she has a strong family and team around her to prevent that.



Hope the fans treat her kindly too


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## Morrus

Dang, that was good. I enjoyed!


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## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> Yeah, she's definitely bringing the Leia. I just wonder if they can bring her through all this close contact with Jedi and Inquisitors without playing up the fact that she's strong in the Force too. They've already hinted at it with her almost-supernatural insight into other peoples' personality.




Obi-wan and Yoda obviously know she has Force potential because of their conversation in the original trilogy. The hard part is keeping the bad guys from discovering this. As for the Inquisitors, all the ones we have seen in the show cannot die here, other than the new one, Reva, because the others have their fates later in the time line. So Reva is the only one who could figure out Leia is Force-sensitive, but then die with the knowledge. I just hope Reva does not somehow also figure out Leia is Anakin's kid. That would be one step too far.


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## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Obi-wan and Yoda obviously know she has Force potential because of their conversation in the original trilogy. The hard part is keeping the bad guys from discovering this. As for the Inquisitors, all the ones we have seen in the show cannot die here, other than the new one, Reva, because the others have their fates later in the time line. So Reva is the only one who could figure out Leia is Force-sensitive, but then die with the knowledge. I just hope Reva does not somehow also figure out Leia is Anakin's kid. That would be one step too far.



I'm not too concerned about the bad guys learning that Leia is Force sensitive, because they can always meet a sticky end at some point. I'm more concerned about Leia learning that Leia is Force sensitive, because that would be a bit of a continuity snafu.


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## Morrus

pukunui said:


> .
> 
> My only quibble was that I thought Anakin = Vader was meant to be a secret. I wouldn’t have thought that even the inquisitors would know. (I understand Obi-Wan knows because he hears Anakin being called Vader in the temple recordings.)



Me too, but I think that’s something we’ve brought to it. Nobody ever said it was a secret. It’s probably not common knowledge, though. Remember by the time of ANH people don’t even believe Jedi were real.


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## DeviousQuail

MarkB said:


> It felt very much in keeping with the rest of what Obi-wan was going through to me. He's got to have a lot of mixed feelings about the clones after having led so many of them in battle. At the same time, I couldn't help wondering whether the clone's Order 66 compulsion was still in there, and if he'd turn murderous in an instant if he caught a glimpse of Obi-wan's lightsaber.



It's hard to figure out how to explain it but I'll try. I agree that it feels very appropriate considering everything Obi-wan has been going through. No argument there. It took me out of the show because the rest of the show has this big adventure vibe to it. Leia is this fish out of water who wants more from life. Obi-wan is dragged back into a conflict he just wanted to leave behind. The bad guys are over the top villains. Kumail Nanjiani is doing Kumail Nanjiani things. All good fun. Even the other bad stuff we saw, like the strung up jedi, felt in keeping with that call to adventure vibe. 

But the scene with the trooper hits differently for me. It was like a slice of real life got thrown into my fun story about space wizards. This man who lived past their usefulness to an uncaring machine has to beg to survive. The look on Obi-wan's face knowing that he bares some responsibility for putting him there. Just a gut punch now that he's opening up to helping others again. Like saying, "You want to start caring again, Obi-wan? What about me?" Just a bit too real.


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## MarkB

DeviousQuail said:


> But the scene with the trooper hits differently for me. It was like a slice of real life got thrown into my fun story about space wizards. This man who lived past their usefulness to an uncaring machine has to beg to survive. The look on Obi-wan's face knowing that he bares some responsibility for putting him there. Just a gut punch now that he's opening up to helping others again. Like saying, "You want to start caring again, Obi-wan? What about me?" Just a bit too real.



I get that, but I guess in my case the unease over the clone's potential Order 66 response offset that for me. And it's only one in a series of scenes that are challenging Obi-wan's ability to distance himself from the world, starting with the workers being short-changed by their overseer, then the Jedi who asks for his help, and the Inquisitors threatening Lars.

It's all of a piece - for someone of Obi-wan's skills and conscience, the calls to action and connections to the life he used to live are everywhere, and trying to ignore them is a constant struggle against his own better nature that's clearly been taking a toll on him for awhile now.


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## pukunui

As the Grand Inquisitor said, the Jedi Code is an itch. Obi-Wan has been really struggling not to scratch it.

What I wonder about the clone vet scene is why they showed him to us right after Obi-Wan appealed to Qui-Gonn for guidance. I was expecting the clone to help Obi-Wan, but perhaps it was just meant to be a prompt to remind Obi-Wan of his past or something? Not sure what the narrative logic was there.

Other thoughts: will see see the younglings from the opening scene of the attack on the temple? I assumed they showed them to us not just as a reminder of what happened but because they are important to the story going forward. I wonder if perhaps the Jedi who appealed to Obi-Wan for help before being caught was one of them.

What did the Grand Inquisitor mean when he described the Third Sister (Reva) as being “from the gutter”? She seems old enough to have been a youngling, but that comment makes me think she was never a Jedi but was a Force sensitive found by the Empire.


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## tomBitonti

pukunui said:


> What I wonder about the clone vet scene is why they showed him to us right after Obi-Wan appealed to Qui-Gonn for guidance. I was expecting the clone to help Obi-Wan, but perhaps it was just meant to be a prompt to remind Obi-Wan of his past or something? Not sure what the narrative logic was there.



That seemed to be guiding Obi back to core value of empathy and providing assistance to those in need.  That these moments were next to each seemed very deliberate.  I thought this was both subtle — no force ghosts here! —and blatant.
TomB


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## MarkB

pukunui said:


> As the Grand Inquisitor said, the Jedi Code is an itch. Obi-Wan has been really struggling not to scratch it.
> 
> What I wonder about the clone vet scene is why they showed him to us right after Obi-Wan appealed to Qui-Gonn for guidance. I was expecting the clone to help Obi-Wan, but perhaps it was just meant to be a prompt to remind Obi-Wan of his past or something? Not sure what the narrative logic was there.



Me neither, but at the time I was too distracted by thinking that Liam Neeson is the perfect person to appeal to when trying to track down a kidnapped child.


pukunui said:


> Other thoughts: will see see the younglings from the opening scene of the attack on the temple? I assumed they showed them to us not just as a reminder of what happened but because they are important to the story going forward. I wonder if perhaps the Jedi who appealed to Obi-Wan for help before being caught was one of them.
> 
> What did the Grand Inquisitor mean when he described the Third Sister (Reva) as being “from the gutter”? She seems old enough to have been a youngling, but that comment makes me think she was never a Jedi but was a Force sensitive found by the Empire.



I think those two questions may be of a piece. One of those younglings looks like she could have grown up to be Third Sister, and she's even centred in the frame during the "what do we do now?" "we run." exchange, then takes the lead as they start running.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Those kids would still be too young to be that Jedi or Reva. They both look in their 20s and those kids would still be teens, if any survived. Remember that this is 10 years after Order 66.


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## pukunui

tomBitonti said:


> That seemed to be guiding Obi back to core value of empathy and providing assistance to those in need.  That these moments were next to each seemed very deliberate.  I thought this was both subtle — no force ghosts here! —and blatant.
> TomB



That works.



MarkB said:


> Me neither, but at the time I was too distracted by thinking that Liam Neeson is the perfect person to appeal to when trying to track down a kidnapped child.



LOL! True.



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Those kids would still be too young to be that Jedi or Reva. They both look in their 20s and those kids would still be teens, if any survived. Remember that this is 10 years after Order 66.



Good point!


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## Flamestrike

DeviousQuail said:


> Second, my 4-year old is as big as Leia. She has multiple chase scenes and these grown-ass adults have a hard time catching her. It's embarrassing.




Is your 4 year old Force sensitive?

Because that likely explains it.


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## Morrus

pukunui said:


> My 10 yo thought Leia was a bit small. I can’t find any info on the actress. I enjoyed her sassy, precocious performance, though.



She's 9. 10 next week.





__





						Vivien Lyra Blair - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Flamestrike

DeviousQuail said:


> But the scene with the trooper hits differently for me. It was like a slice of real life got thrown into my fun story about space wizards.




Ep 1-3 were all about the descent of a once great but decaying and paralyzed Republic into Fascism. It's one of the reasons it plays better now, than it did 20 years ago.

Much more real and disturbing for me, was the Order 66 scene of a Clone trooper running in a school, gunning down the teacher and the kids racing off screaming, trying to avoid getting shot and murdered.

That resonated with me (and others online as well) for obvious real life reasons.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Just looked up the age of the two actors and the one who played the Jedi is 36 and Moses Ingram/Reva is 29. So no way he is playing one of the kids, but I could see them trying to stretch it to make Reva maybe still late teens and maybe a child survivor of Order 66, or just as easy it could be family she lost that day and blames Obi-wan for letting it happen/not being their to protect them. She definitely has a personal grudge against him, though.

By the way, the actress playing Leia, Vivien Lyra Blair, turns 10 next month.


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## pukunui

So according to Wookieepedia, Reva is a former Jedi. She must have been surviving by living rough on the streets (hence the reference to being rescued from the gutter) when the inquisitorius found her. 


I know that getting shot or stabbed -- never mind getting cut in half -- doesn't automatically result in death in the Star Wars universe, but I am curious to see how the Grand Inquisitor survives. He obviously has to come back, since he is the primary antagonist of season 1 of Rebels. And since Reva is the new inquisitor, she's probably going to be the only one who dies on this show -- but will it be at Obi-Wan's hand or the Grand Inquisitor's? He's certainly not going to take being stabbed by her lying down (other than literally).

The Fifth Brother also survives through to Rebels, while the Fourth Sister has previously only appeared in comics.


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## Davies

pukunui said:


> I know that getting shot or stabbed -- never mind getting cut in half -- doesn't automatically result in death in the Star Wars universe, but I am curious to see how the Grand Inquisitor survives. He obviously has to come back, since he is the primary antagonist of season 1 of Rebels. And since Reva is the new inquisitor, she's probably going to be the only one who dies on this show -- but will it be at Obi-Wan's hand or the Grand Inquisitor's?



A third, loudly-breathing option is possibly more likely.


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## pukunui

Davies said:


> A third, loudly-breathing option is possibly more likely.



The barely recognizable Hayden Christensen!


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## DeviousQuail

Flamestrike said:


> Is your 4 year old Force sensitive?
> 
> Because that likely explains it.



Unfortunately, no. Fingers crossed Hogwarts doesn't let us down. 

Slightly more serious, I doubt the force is the issue because Obi-wan probably would have picked up on that. Instead it's likely just the limitation of finding a good actress for the role. She's great at all the parts that really matter. Having the grown ups look a little slow during the chase scenes is just the cost of doing business.


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## pukunui

DeviousQuail said:


> Unfortunately, no. Fingers crossed Hogwarts doesn't let us down.
> 
> Slightly more serious, I doubt the force is the issue because Obi-wan probably would have picked up on that. Instead it's likely just the limitation of finding a good actress for the role. She's great at all the parts that really matter. Having the grown ups look a little slow during the chase scenes is just the cost of doing business.



It did look a little comical, I agree, but they do also show her making good use of her small size to slip through spaces the adults can't easily follow. She's obviously more familiar with the terrain (it being her backyard and all) than they are. 

The Alderaanian royal family clearly doesn't put much stock in security, though, if kidnappers can get that close to their home and steal the royal heir away with very little trouble.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

DeviousQuail said:


> Slightly more serious, I doubt the force is the issue because Obi-wan probably would have picked up on that. Instead it's likely just the limitation of finding a good actress for the role. She's great at all the parts that really matter. Having the grown ups look a little slow during the chase scenes is just the cost of doing business.




Don't trust Obi-wan's reactions to anything relating to the Force at this point, as it is implied that he has not used it in nearly 10 years. Just look at the scene where he barely catches Leia after she falls. And it looked like he only knew there were Inquisitors because he saw them, not because he sensed them. But with his connection to the Force so weak, he is also hard to be detect. After all, if he were at full strength, do we think he could have just stood there and not be sensed by the Inquisitors when they were confronting Lars?


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## MGibster

John R Davis said:


> Warhammer40Kenobi!



That would be Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau from the old Rogue Trader days of 40k. 


wicked cool said:


> the main plot-hes a jedi master and he takes barely any precautions. the rooftop scenes where the princess is running around . this felt like saturday morning television or something i would watch the olsen twins did on full house. it was really really bad



The action is pretty much what I expect from Star Wars, Saturday morning television, or, more accurately, the type of action you'd see in 1930s serials they used to show in theaters before the main feature. 



wicked cool said:


> these are people living in a tougher society than most of us live in and yet none would survive in 2022. yes its tevelevision and yes its star wars but this is well below boba/Mando



I already like it better than Fett.  I was prepared to not like this, but they really hooked me.  I thought it was great.


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## Omand

Quite enjoyed the first two episodes.  Lots of character and world building to show the effect of 10 years of the Empire.

Looking forwards to the next 4 episodes.

Cheers


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## Rabulias

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am happy to see how Leia knows Obi-wan and explains why her ship would be caught near Tatooine and why she would send her "Help Me" message to him in the original movie.



_Rogue One _implies that Bail sends her to specifically pick up Obi-Wan and return with him to Alderaan.


pukunui said:


> My only quibble was that I thought Anakin = Vader was meant to be a secret. I wouldn’t have thought that even the inquisitors would know. (I understand Obi-Wan knows because he hears Anakin being called Vader in the temple recordings.)



Yeah, it did strike me as strange that Reva knew about Anakin. However, I think Vader was leader of the Inquisitors, right? Maybe he let them know this (or just Reva?) to use against Obi-Wan just as she did. It did bring to mind the scene in _Return of the Jedi _where Vader senses that Luke has a sister.

What_ really _struck me as odd was the fact that Obi-Wan did not know Vader was still alive. I would think that "Vader as the Emperor's enforcer" would be widely known, and even in a backwater world like Tatooine he would have heard mention about it at _some _point in 10 years. But I can handwaive this away for the effectiveness of that scene.

Other thoughts: Dang, Ewan really nailed the beaten down and depressed Obi-Wan. Though there were glimmers of the old Obi-Wan, such as in his conversation with Teeka.

The stimdealer Obi-Wan meets is played by Ewan's daughter, Esther Rose McGregor. Funny with her exit line.

Did some of the signs on Daiyu say "SW MILK"?


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## billd91

That 10 year old Leia is a real pip. Vivien Lyra Blair is doing a fantastic job channeling Carrie. Damn, I wish she was around to see it.


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## Maxperson

wicked cool said:


> the main plot-hes a jedi master and he takes barely any precautions. the rooftop scenes where the princess is running around . this felt like saturday morning television or something i would watch  the olsen twins did on full house. it was really really bad



That and he struggled pretty hard a Jedi Master when he was trying to lift her with the force.


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## Maxperson

Morrus said:


> Me too, but I think that’s something we’ve brought to it. Nobody ever said it was a secret. It’s probably not common knowledge, though. Remember by the time of ANH people don’t even believe Jedi were real.



Which was a silly position to take.  There were hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi across the galaxy running about saving people.  There would have been many millions of first hand accounts and billions, if not trillions of second hand accounts(My uncle told me about a Jedi that saves his town from pirates).  18 years isn't enough time to put much of a dent in that.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Rabulias said:


> Yeah, it did strike me as strange that Reva knew about Anakin. However, I think Vader was leader of the Inquisitors, right? Maybe he let them know this (or just Reva?) to use against Obi-Wan just as she did. It did bring to mind the scene in _Return of the Jedi _where Vader senses that Luke has a sister.




Yes, Vader formed the Inquisitors to help him hunt the Jedi. And the organization was dissolved, rather than replacing them, once all 11 were dead.



> What_ really _struck me as odd was the fact that Obi-Wan did not know Vader was still alive. I would think that "Vader as the Emperor's enforcer" would be widely known, and even in a backwater world like Tatooine he would have heard mention about it at _some _point in 10 years. But I can handwaive this away for the effectiveness of that scene.




Ahsoka did not realize it was Anakin inside the Vader outfit either when they fought on Rebels.


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## trappedslider

All the first scene on Daiyu needed was rain for the complete cyberpunk look.


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## Davies

trappedslider said:


> All the first scene on Daiyu needed was rain for the complete cyberpunk look.



It can't rain all the time.


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## billd91

Davies said:


> It can't rain all the time.



The sky won’t fall forever.


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## Benjamin Olson

Well so far I love this show. I think bringing in little Leia was just a fantastically inspired idea. It recontextualizes why original movie Leia had such absolute faith in Obi-Wan Kenobi as the person she should turn to when she's in desperate need. It gives substantially more character development to the original trilogy main character who was most conspicuously underutilized. I had also always wondered about her pre-original trilogy life on Alderaan, as we just never got much information about it. It even raises the emotional stakes of Alderaan's destruction a little to have actually visited it not just in video games. 

And the child actress is just doing a phenomenal job. 

Ewan McGregor of course knocks his character out of the park, but we all just assumed he would, so that's not nearly as exciting as him getting paired with 10 year-old Leia.



DeviousQuail said:


> There are two things in these episodes that took me out of the show. First, the clone trooper vet asking for change felt way too real. His appearance and Obi-wan's reaction to him was on a different level compared to the rest of the show. Just a huge moment of sadness and regret and a bunch of other feelings. I liked it but it felt like a scene from a different show.



That took me out of the show, not because I thought it was tonally off in any way, but simply because it got me thinking about how much more problematic the always problematic shoddy treatment of veterans would be in a universe where soldiers were literally created in government funded cloning centers for the purpose of war, with no family or connections outside of that life.


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## pukunui

Maxperson said:


> That and he struggled pretty hard a Jedi Master when he was trying to lift her with the force.



For starters, he’s been trying not to use the Force for ten years, but also, I took that scene as being him struggling with committing to using the Force (knowing what the consequences will mean) as much as remembering how to use it.



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Ahsoka did not realize it was Anakin inside the Vader outfit either when they fought on Rebels.



No, but then Obi-Wan had heard Sidious referring to Anakin as Vader in the temple recordings, whereas Ahsoka didn’t have that association, so she might have heard of a Lord Vader without knowing who he was, whereas so Obi-Wan would.


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## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> My 10 yo thought Leia was a bit small. I can’t find any info on the actress. I enjoyed her sassy, precocious performance, though.



She is 9, apparently. My partner (a primary school teacher) tracked it down because she thought she looked too young. I guess she was cast for precociousness rather than being exactly the right age!


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## Paul Farquhar

Rabulias said:


> Maybe he let them know this (or just Reva?) to use against Obi-Wan just as she did.



Reva clearly has more backstory to be disclosed. She is presumably one of the younglings seen during the opening attack on the Jedi temple sequence, maybe she knew Anakin from the temple, then recognised pre-armour Vader during the attack?


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> She is 9, apparently. My partner (a primary school teacher) tracked it down because she thought she looked too young. I guess she was cast for precociousness rather than being exactly the right age!




Leia is only 9 or 10 at this time, depending on that exact day of the year, so the actress matches. The show said 10 years after Order 66 and Luke and Leia were born after Order 66 was executed.


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## Arilyn

I'm really enjoying this so far. Haven't been paying much attention to the other Star Wars shows, but this one I like. Looking forward to next week's episode.


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## Zardnaar

I liked it off to a better start than BoBF.


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## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Leia is only 9 or 10 at this time, depending on that exact day of the year, so the actress matches. The show said 10 years after Order 66 and Luke and Leia were born after Order 66 was executed.



She says she is 10. But if we assume Kenobi wants to give the toy to Luke as a Birthday present, they are only just 10. Add to that that they where premature.


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## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> She says she is 10. But if we assume Kenobi wants to give the toy to Luke as a Birthday present, they are only just 10. Add to that that they where premature.



And Leia wasn't exactly tall even as an adult, so the actress's height works.


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## MarkB

pukunui said:


> I know that getting shot or stabbed -- never mind getting cut in half -- doesn't automatically result in death in the Star Wars universe, but I am curious to see how the Grand Inquisitor survives. He obviously has to come back, since he is the primary antagonist of season 1 of Rebels.



Is it confirmed that he's actually the same character? He certainly seems to be the same species, but in terms of character and physicality I'm just not getting the vibe of him being the person we saw in Rebels.


----------



## Morrus

Maxperson said:


> Which was a silly position to take.  There were hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi across the galaxy running about saving people.  There would have been many millions of first hand accounts and billions, if not trillions of second hand accounts(My uncle told me about a Jedi that saves his town from pirates).  18 years isn't enough time to put much of a dent in that.



Yeah we’ve both argued that at length in other threads.


----------



## Flamestrike

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Ahsoka did not realize it was Anakin inside the Vader outfit either when they fought on Rebels.




Yes she did. She sensed him as the Sith Lord Pilot of his souped up Tie fighter several episodes before (and blacked out from the shock).

Unlike Obi-wan she hasnt cut herself off from the force, so not only did she sense him, he sensed her.


Presumably Obi-Wan shuts himself off from the Force so he cant be found by other space Wizards, who have a knack for such things (like Luke, who does the same when he goes into hiding from the 1st Order and Kylo Ren).

When she met him in person later, and they dueled, she knew _exactly _who he was:


----------



## Zaukrie

The fact that the Jedi went into hiding and did nothing sounds an awful lot like some of the elites in the US these days. Other than the preposterous idea no one believes in the Jedi, this series of movies and shows hits home in realism in many ways.


----------



## pukunui

MarkB said:


> Is it confirmed that he's actually the same character? He certainly seems to be the same species, but in terms of character and physicality I'm just not getting the vibe of him being the person we saw in Rebels.



It would be pretty bizarre to have two identical people be Grand Inquisitor back-to-back.

FWIW Wookieepedia is treating them as the same person.


----------



## Dire Bare

pukunui said:


> It would be pretty bizarre to have two identical people be Grand Inquisitor back-to-back.
> 
> FWIW Wookieepedia is treating them as the same person.



If you look at photos of Rupert Friend, the actor who plays the Grand Inquisitor, he looks like he'd fit the part. But once they put him in make-up, he doesn't quite match with expectations.

But, it's a minor quibble to me. The animated series are all stylized anyway, and finding a good actor who looks just like the animated Grand Inquisitor might be asking for a unicorn . . .


----------



## Mallus

Thoughts:

Precocious Leia is almost as adorable as Baby Yoda. She does get better lines, though.

Ewan’s acting here might redeem the prequels. There’s still good in them, I can feel it.

I love the restraint being shown. No saber duel yet.


----------



## RuinousPowers

Ewan McGregor is great, as usual. The scene with the Clone Trooper, the Jawa, and Leia are standout; love that he hasn't used his lightsaber yet. 

But lots of really dumb stuff too. Too bad Inquisitor wasn't watching Bail since he would have led them right to his secret cave. "Let's get out of these clothes and dress exactly like a Jedi to hide".

Is it just me, or would everyone have preferred a little more Unforgiven/Logan before they reintroduced Anakin? Feels like it's going to be 4 episodes of filler until we get what we came for.


----------



## Zardnaar

Mallus said:


> Thoughts:
> 
> Precocious Leia is almost as adorable as Baby Yoda. She does get better lines, though.
> 
> Ewan’s acting here might redeem the prequels. There’s still good in them, I can feel it.
> 
> I love the restraint being shown. No saber duel yet.




 I think the clone wars cartoon redeemed the prequels


----------



## pukunui

Dire Bare said:


> If you look at photos of Rupert Friend, the actor who plays the Grand Inquisitor, he looks like he'd fit the part. But once they put him in make-up, he doesn't quite match with expectations.
> 
> But, it's a minor quibble to me. The animated series are all stylized anyway, and finding a good actor who looks just like the animated Grand Inquisitor might be asking for a unicorn . . .



Yeah, Rebels went with a very thin, elongated art style, so translating any of those characters into live action is going to be tricky.


----------



## Zardnaar

pukunui said:


> Yeah, Rebels went with a very thin, elongated art style, so translating any of those characters into live action is going to be tricky.




 Polite way of saying cheap animation

 Rebels is very good imho.


----------



## pukunui

Zardnaar said:


> Polite way of saying cheap animation
> 
> Rebels is very good imho.



I wouldn’t say it looks cheap. But yes, Rebels is fantastic. Some of the best Star Wars ever.


----------



## Zardnaar

pukunui said:


> I wouldn’t say it looks cheap. But yes, Rebels is fantastic. Some of the best Star Wars ever.




 It's why they went with that style. Clone wars cost a lot to animate apparently.


----------



## Flamestrike

Chris Currie said:


> But lots of really dumb stuff too. Too bad Inquisitor wasn't watching Bail since he would have led them right to his secret cave. "Let's get out of these clothes and dress exactly like a Jedi to hide".




You're seriously underestimating the power and influence Bail Organa has. There is a reason the Inquisition (and the Emperor or Vader) are pissed at Reva for messing with his kid.

The Imperial Senate wont be disbanded for another decade yet, and even Vader and the Inquisition are not in a position to be openly murdering Senators, which would effectively kick off a Galactic civil war.

The Emperor wants to consolidate power, and for the Death Star to be built first. Then Vader can step out of the shadows, he can disband the Imperial Senate, and simply blow up any planet that dares defy him.

Or basically the plot of Episode 4.


----------



## Rabulias

Flamestrike said:


> Yes she did. She sensed him as the Sith Lord Pilot of his souped up Tie fighter several episodes before (and blacked out from the shock).
> [...]
> When she met him in person later, and they dueled, she knew _exactly _who he was:



It is implied from those first encounters that she _suspects_ he is Anakin; she recognizes his presence through the Force, but finds it difficult to accept. By the time they duel, she is certain of it and has come to accept it. Pair this with the last story arc in _Clone Wars_, and it feels like it should not be such a surprise to her...


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> It would be pretty bizarre to have two identical people be Grand Inquisitor back-to-back.
> 
> FWIW Wookieepedia is treating them as the same person.




Right. Vader formed the Inquisitors, 10 regular and the Grand Inquisitor. There was only ever one of each and, until Disney changes it in the future, as each died, they were not replaced with a new one, so by the time of the original movie, all were dead and the group was disbanded. Of course, now that Cal Kestis has a sequel video game, if he gets more Inquisitors to fight, either they cannot die in the game or they will because they are replacements for previous ones who died in other stories.


----------



## South by Southwest

I guess my own opinions line up mostly with wicked cool's: the acting (and also the writing) for both Reva and Leia were really, really weak. Nearly all the rest of the writing, though, was great and McGregor's acting was stellar, as usual, as was Smits'.

The acting from the girl playing Leia I simply could not stand; I wanted to because I recognize how hard a role like that is for a child actor, but in the end I just couldn't stand it. And the writing around her was awful at times: a nine-year-old child on half-grown legs runs from four or five scary grown men and yet somehow they don't catch her inside of two seconds? That must be a new Force ability I haven't heard of before. Really, I blame the writers for that weak overall performance, not the actress herself: they never should have given so much dialogue to a kid so unprepared for the role's demands.

Still, there's a lot in these two episodes that I like very much. From these first two episodes I rate it well below _The Mandalorian_ but still above _The Book of Boba Fett_ (and far above the main story sequels and prequels).


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Right. Vader formed the Inquisitors, 10 regular and the Grand Inquisitor. There was only ever one of each and, until Disney changes it in the future, as each died, they were not replaced with a new one, so by the time of the original movie, all were dead and the group was disbanded. Of course, now that Cal Kestis has a sequel video game, if he gets more Inquisitors to fight, either they cannot die in the game or they will because they are replacements for previous ones who died in other stories.



That doesn't entirely make sense, since it is stated in Fallen Order that when a jedi is caught some are killed both others are turned, becoming new inquisitors. The Grand Inquisitor also shows an interest in turning Ezra in Rebels.

Also in Fallen Order Cal Kestis gets to kill a whole bunch of unnamed inquisitor mooks.

Clearly, once he was confident the Jedi where gone, Palpatine would want to see the Inquisitors wiped out.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> That doesn't entirely make sense, since it is stated in Fallen Order that when a jedi is caught some are killed both others are turned, becoming new inquisitors. The Grand Inquisitor also shows an interest in turning Ezra in Rebels.
> 
> Also in Fallen Order Cal Kestis gets to kill a whole bunch of unnamed inquisitor mooks.
> 
> Clearly, once he was confident the Jedi where gone, Palpatine would want to see the Inquisitors wiped out.




Those lesser ones do not count as the main ones, though. There are only 10 Brothers/Sisters and one Grand Inquisitor. Once all 11 of those are dead, the Organization is disbanded, rather than promoting more into those 11 roles.


----------



## Flamestrike

Rabulias said:


> It is implied from those first encounters that she _suspects_ he is Anakin; she recognizes his presence through the Force, but finds it difficult to accept. By the time they duel, she is certain of it and has come to accept it. Pair this with the last story arc in _Clone Wars_, and it feels like it should not be such a surprise to her...




No, she clearly knows who it is from that first time sensing him (and he also her). 

She literally tells him as much the first time they come face to face.


----------



## Flamestrike

Paul Farquhar said:


> Clearly, once he was confident the Jedi where gone, Palpatine would want to see the Inquisitors wiped out.




Vader also, because he (rightly) suspected they wanted his job as the second Sith.


----------



## Tonguez

The acting is bad, quite wooden
is the kid playing Leiz really 10? She seems younger (or Im just old and all kids look younger now)

nice that the story picked up directly from the movies and filled in some of the gaps


----------



## Mezuka

After the average second half of the Boba Fett series my exceptions were low. I'm very happy with the first two episodes of Obi-Wan. The last shot of episode two sent chills down my spine. Little Leia is perfect. I wonder what Carry Fisher would have said about her mini-me.


----------



## Morrus

Tonguez said:


> is the kid playing Leiz really 10?



She's 10 next week.


----------



## Rabulias

Morrus said:


> She's 10 next week.



As far as I can find, the show was filmed between May and September 2021. Depending on when her scenes were filmed, she was between 9 and 9 and a half when this was filmed.


----------



## Kobold Stew

The actress's age is great if they do follow-up series with her: she can stay young and in-continuity age-appropriate, even if (multiple?) series are produced over the next 3-4 years. Leia can always be "about 10" and the story can stay at the Order 66+10 years point.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Rabulias said:


> As far as I can find, the show was filmed between May and September 2021. Depending on when her scenes were filmed, she was between 9 and 9 and a half when this was filmed.




And Luke and Leia are still 9, maybe about to turn 10, at the time of this series. The kid playing Luke is still only 10, until his birthday in Oct, meaning that is also a 9 year old at time of filming, so the two actors are the same age, despite the difference in appearances.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

South by Southwest said:


> The acting from the girl playing Leia I simply could not stand;




I'm gonna have to hard disagree with you there. I find her an absolute _delight_.



South by Southwest said:


> A nine-year-old child on half-grown legs runs from four or five scary grown men and yet somehow they don't catch her inside of two seconds?




I'm always surprised how often I need to explain this to Star Wars fans: The Force is "with" her! "May the Force Be With You" is not an empty platitude in Star Wars. 

When the force is with you, you get all the good luck, and your opponents get all the bad luck. Leia is a perfect example. She almost never misses her target when she fires a blaster, and Storm Troopers (who, in spite of what we seem to be shown, are supposed to be excellent shots) ALWAYS MISS. It's not that Storm Troopers SUCK, it's that we're constantly watching characters who the Force is WITH.

Those guys chasing her stumble over trees because the force is with HER, not THEM.



South by Southwest said:


> Still, there's a lot in these two episodes that I like very much. From these first two episodes I rate it far above the main story sequels and prequels.




THIS, I agree with you wholeheartedly!


----------



## Morrus

FitzTheRuke said:


> I'm gonna have to hard disagree with you there. I find her an absolute _delight_.



Yeah, me too. I think she was excellent.


----------



## South by Southwest

FitzTheRuke said:


> I'm gonna have to hard disagree with you there. I find her an absolute _delight_.



No sweat; I am happy to have people disagree with me (and they'll even change my mind sometimes).

Pursuant to my parenthetical, can you say a bit more about what delighted you about her? I ask this not to be combative in the way we often see on EN World, but so that I can go back, re-watch the episodes, and see if I can come to see what you saw. I mean, the idea of a stubborn, preternaturally insightful, and rambunctious Leia I totally get and dig: it was just this actress' execution of it that I so disliked. What was it that especially charmed you?


----------



## Aeson

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that likes young Leia. She's adorable. I can definitely see her growing into older Leia. I knew something would take Oni-Wan off world. I had no idea it was her. 

Lots of aliens I'm not familiar with. I like identifying them as the shows go along. Not as easy with this show. The sloth on stilts might be my favorite so far. 

Not sure it's Mandalorian good, but it's already better than The Book of Boba Fett. We saw a down on his luck clone. I hope that's as close was we get to Boba Fett.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

South by Southwest said:


> No sweat; I am happy to have people disagree with me (and they'll even change my mind sometimes).
> 
> Pursuant to my parenthetical, can you say a bit more about what delighted you about her? I ask this not to be combative in the way we often see on EN World, but so that I can go back, re-watch the episodes, and see if I can come to see what you saw. I mean, the idea of a stubborn, preternaturally insightful, and rambunctious Leia I totally get and dig: it was just this actress' execution of it that I so disliked. What was it that especially charmed you?




I'm not sure how to describe it other than to say that I thought she nailed it. This is clearly where we differ (I, too, hold no animosity in disagreement) - I thought she did a particularly great job of embodying Leia-ness. What did you think was off about it?

As an aside, I've seen a lot of derision toward the actress of Reva here too. While I wouldn't say she was great, I thought she was fine, in a typical Star Wars Empire Nazi kind of way). True Imperials are just horrible people, which she did fine.


----------



## Tonguez

FitzTheRuke said:


> I'm not sure how to describe it other than to say that I thought she nailed it. This is clearly where we differ (I, too, hold no animosity in disagreement) - I thought she did a particularly great job of embodying Leia-ness. What did you think was off about it?
> 
> As an aside, I've seen a lot of derision toward the actress of Reva here too. While I wouldn't say she was great, I thought she was fine, in a typical Star Wars Empire Nazi kind of way). True Imperials are just horrible people, which she did fine.



I think the Reva actress was fine, the writing might need improvement though. Leia was fine for what she is too (despite the unnaturally stumpy legs ), I supposed her mature insightful comments were due to the Force, so could accept the cuteness factor which I would have otherwise derided.

someone needs to advise Ob-wan that staying pristinely clean (daily presdigitation?) and wearing a Jedi robe isnt a good idea when you’re trying to hide though


----------



## Morrus

Tonguez said:


> someone needs to advise Ob-wan that staying pristinely clean (daily presdigitation?) and wearing a Jedi robe isnt a good idea when you’re trying to hide though



That’s one of those weird continuity things.

When we first saw Star Wars those robes were basically desert wear. The sandpeople worse similar. They weren’t supposed to be a Jedi outfit.

Then the prequels were made and somehow the decision was made that all the Jedi would dress like that. So now Kenobi is retroactively wearing his Jedi robes, not old desert wear.


----------



## Ryujin

Aeson said:


> I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that likes young Leia. She's adorable. I can definitely see her growing into older Leia. I knew something would take Oni-Wan off world. I had no idea it was her.
> 
> Lots of aliens I'm not familiar with. I like identifying them as the shows go along. Not as easy with this show. The sloth on stilts might be my favorite so far.
> 
> Not sure it's Mandalorian good, but it's already better than The Book of Boba Fett. We saw a down on his luck clone. I hope that's as close was we get to Boba Fett.



I had a feeling about that. In "A New Hope" Leia know about General Obiwan Kenobi and she had to learn about him, or meet him somewhere, so it set off my Spidey Senses when they first showed her. A 30 year old 10 year old resonates with me rather well for... reasons.


----------



## MarkB

Ryujin said:


> I had a feeling about that. In "A New Hope" Leia know about General Obiwan Kenobi and she had to learn about him, or meet him somewhere, so it set off my Spidey Senses when they first showed her. A 30 year old 10 year old resonates with me rather well for... reasons.



Leia knowing about Obi-wan Kenobi could be explained by her father having told her about him. But when Luke rescues her from the detention centre he first refers to him as Ben Kenobi, and she's not even slightly thrown off by that name. This makes more sense of that scene, as he introduces himself to her as Ben.


----------



## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> Leia knowing about Obi-wan Kenobi could be explained by her father having told her about him. But when Luke rescues her from the detention centre he first refers to him as Ben Kenobi, and she's not even slightly thrown off by that name. This makes more sense of that scene, as he introduces himself to her as Ben.



Could be but in the context of her appearing in this show, it was obviously otherwise


----------



## pukunui

Morrus said:


> Then the prequels were made and somehow the decision was made that *all the Jedi would dress like that*. So now Kenobi is retroactively wearing his Jedi robes, not old desert wear.



There are a few exceptions, of course. Luminara Unduli gets to wear her culture's traditional garb, complete with headdress, while Aayla Secura gets to dress like she's going clubbing or something.


----------



## South by Southwest

FitzTheRuke said:


> I'm not sure how to describe it other than to say that I thought she nailed it. This is clearly where we differ (I, too, hold no animosity in disagreement) - I thought she did a particularly great job of embodying Leia-ness. What did you think was off about it?



I think it was Tonguez who used the term "wooden" for her acting, and I agree with that. It was all too easy for me to see the actress making all her efforts, whereas when Smits or McGregor were on screen, all I saw were their characters.


FitzTheRuke said:


> As an aside, I've seen a lot of derision toward the actress of Reva here too. While I wouldn't say she was great, I thought she was fine, in a typical Star Wars Empire Nazi kind of way). True Imperials are just horrible people, which she did fine.



Yeah, I thought it was again a bit wooden. Nothing _awful,_ mind you--just a bit two-dimensional compared to, say, the Grand Inquisitor. It seemed like Reva's only two emotions in both episodes were anger and impatience and she wore them both in equal degrees all throughout every scene.

Still, it wasn't a bad show by any means and I see a lot of promise in it.


----------



## MarkB

South by Southwest said:


> Yeah, I thought it was again a bit wooden. Nothing _awful,_ mind you--just a bit two-dimensional compared to, say, the Grand Inquisitor. It seemed like Reva's only two emotions in both episodes were anger and impatience and she wore them both in equal degrees all throughout every scene.



Huh, I wouldn't have called out the Grand Inquisitor as a better example. He came across as "grumpy middle management" to me, nowhere near the screen presence he had in Rebels.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

So that was actually Temuera as the old homeless trooper. It makes sense, though I did not even recognize him.


----------



## South by Southwest

MarkB said:


> Huh, I wouldn't have called out the Grand Inquisitor as a better example. He came across as "grumpy middle management" to me, nowhere near the screen presence he had in Rebels.



Never saw Rebels, so I've no grounds for comparison. I will agree he seemed like the stereotypical "grumpy manager" sort, though. I just saw a bit more range of emotions in his character than in Reva's  is all. Still, this is only a difference of degrees that I'm observing. Reva didn't kill the show for me.


----------



## Zaukrie

South by Southwest said:


> I guess my own opinions line up mostly with wicked cool's: the acting (and also the writing) for both Reva and Leia were really, really weak. Nearly all the rest of the writing, though, was great and McGregor's acting was stellar, as usual, as was Smits'.
> 
> The acting from the girl playing Leia I simply could not stand; I wanted to because I recognize how hard a role like that is for a child actor, but in the end I just couldn't stand it. And the writing around her was awful at times: a nine-year-old child on half-grown legs runs from four or five scary grown men and yet somehow they don't catch her inside of two seconds? That must be a new Force ability I haven't heard of before. Really, I blame the writers for that weak overall performance, not the actress herself: they never should have given so much dialogue to a kid so unprepared for the role's demands.
> 
> Still, there's a lot in these two episodes that I like very much. From these first two episodes I rate it well below _The Mandalorian_ but still above _The Book of Boba Fett_ (and far above the main story sequels and prequels).



There are people that don't like Leia in this? Mind. Boggling. She's the best part for me, by far. And it isn't close.


----------



## Ryujin

Zaukrie said:


> There are people that don't like Leia in this? Mind. Boggling. She's the best part for me, by far. And it isn't close.



People tend to expect far too much from child actors. It's like all of those job ads where they want someone to fill an entry level position, but have 5 years experience in the industry


----------



## South by Southwest

Ryujin said:


> People tend to expect far too much from child actors. It's like all of those job ads where they want someone to fill an entry level position, but have 5 years experience in the industry



Right, and that's why I said I fault the writers and directors more than I do the actress playing Leia: given her age, she's doing all she can with the role, but I also think given her age, they shouldn't have given her quite so much dialogue and action. There were times when she was 100% fine to my mind, like at the dinner with her smirking cousin: nailed it there. But then there were other times when I totally saw the actress acting and trying hard to conjure certain emotions, not the character living in the story.

I think it's just too big of a role for a nine-year-old kid to carry. The suits should've known that.


----------



## Zaukrie

South by Southwest said:


> Right, and that's why I said I fault the writers and directors more than I do the actress playing Leia: given her age, she's doing all she can with the role, but I also think given her age, they shouldn't have given her quite so much dialogue and action. There were times when she was 100% fine to my mind, like at the dinner with her smirking cousin: nailed it there. But then there were other times when I totally saw the actress acting and trying hard to conjure certain emotions, not the character living in the story.
> 
> I think it's just too big of a role for a nine-year-old kid to carry. The suits should've known that.



I disagree. We really love the dialogue and everything about her. To each their own.


----------



## RangerWickett

I figure a child actor will be like this. Whatever.

But the action and editing were weak in my view. Kenobi is engaged in a sorta lazy firefight on the rooftops and he has to stop to force grab Leia.

The next cut, he's at ground level, and there's no clue as to what the guy still shooting at him did. And we'd been watching Reva leap around as if she was going to be there imminently, but all her force parkour amounted to nothing.

That could have been tightened up. Like, Star Wars is an action franchise, and Disney has unlimited money. I don't get why the action doesn't look top notch.


----------



## RangerWickett

I think my favorite world building element, though, was the sand worm sushi workshop.


----------



## South by Southwest

RangerWickett said:


> But the action and editing were weak in my view. Kenobi is engaged in a sorta lazy firefight on the rooftops and he has to stop to force grab Leia.
> 
> The next cut, he's at ground level, and there's no clue as to what the guy still shooting at him did. And we'd been watching Reva leap around as if she was going to be there imminently, but all her force parkour amounted to nothing.
> 
> That could have been tightened up. Like, Star Wars is an action franchise, and Disney has unlimited money. I don't get why the action doesn't look top notch.



Yeah, that irked me a bit, too. I quickly forgave it because it's the crucial moment of Obi-Wan's change of heart, but it was an obvious hole in the action sequence.

Still, I'm keeping with my "mixed bag" assessment and for all the points I've made against it, in the end it's a mixed bag that I rate positively.


RangerWickett said:


> I think my favorite world building element, though, was the sand worm sushi workshop.



That was wonderful.


----------



## Tonguez

RangerWickett said:


> I figure a child actor will be like this. Whatever.
> 
> But the action and editing were weak in my view. Kenobi is engaged in a sorta lazy firefight on the rooftops and he has to stop to force grab Leia.
> 
> The next cut, he's at ground level, and there's no clue as to what the guy still shooting at him did.



yeah, that was just stupid and really took me out of the show- it was an absolute “enter stage left” moment. 
My expecttion was that Reva would swoop down to grab Leia thus forcing Obiwan to go full action hero and jump down into battle -  but nope,  bad guys with lasers gone and Obi-wan just walks in from off set


----------



## pukunui

They’re clearly delaying the inevitable lightsaber duel between Obi-Wan and Reva.


----------



## Maxperson

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> So that was actually Temuera as the old homeless trooper. It makes sense, though I did not even recognize him.



I didn't recognize him, either and I looked to see if it was him.  He was also wearing 501st legion armor.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Tonguez said:


> yeah, that was just stupid and really took me out of the show- it was an absolute “enter stage left” moment.
> My expecttion was that Reva would swoop down to grab Leia thus forcing Obiwan to go full action hero and jump down into battle -  but nope,  bad guys with lasers gone and Obi-wan just walks in from off set




It was a bad cut to be sure, but it's not like it's hard to assume that he shoots the guy and slides down a fire-escape ladder, or something. Woulda been nice to have taken the 5-10 _seconds_ of film that it would have taken to _show_ that, though!


----------



## pukunui

Maxperson said:


> I didn't recognize him, either and I looked to see if it was him.  He was also wearing 501st legion armor.



I recognised him straight away. My first thought was that it was Rex or one of the other chip-free clones who show up later in Rebels. But perhaps not. It seems he was just there to remind Obi-Wan of his past.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

RangerWickett said:


> I figure a child actor will be like this. Whatever.
> 
> But the action and editing were weak in my view. Kenobi is engaged in a sorta lazy firefight on the rooftops and he has to stop to force grab Leia.
> 
> The next cut, he's at ground level, and there's no clue as to what the guy still shooting at him did. And we'd been watching Reva leap around as if she was going to be there imminently, but all her force parkour amounted to nothing.
> 
> That could have been tightened up. Like, Star Wars is an action franchise, and Disney has unlimited money. I don't get why the action doesn't look top notch.




It did feel like something was filmed and then cut from the scene. He was exchanging fire with two bounty hunters, shot one, then Leia fell, he stopped her fall, then came running out of an alley or doorway from the opposite side of the street from the building he was on. So something had to have been cut to speed up the scene, maybe Obi-wan force jumping the same gap Leia missed, then hurrying down some stairs to the street and Leia. Also, the other bounty hunter from the rooftops, a droid, then shows up on the street and Kumail's character shoots him.


----------



## Stalker0

FitzTheRuke said:


> I'm gonna have to hard disagree with you there. I find her an absolute _delight_.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm always surprised how often I need to explain this to Star Wars fans: The Force is "with" her! "May the Force Be With You" is not an empty platitude in Star Wars.
> 
> When the force is with you, you get all the good luck, and your opponents get all the bad luck. Leia is a perfect example. She almost never misses her target when she fires a blaster, and Storm Troopers (who, in spite of what we seem to be shown, are supposed to be excellent shots) ALWAYS MISS. It's not that Storm Troopers SUCK, it's that we're constantly watching characters who the Force is WITH.
> 
> Those guys chasing her stumble over trees because the force is with HER, not THEM.



This is a really good point, and its one of the narrative tropes of Star Wars that lets it get away with a lot of stuff that makes no sense in a regular show. Leia LITERALLY has plot power due to the force.


----------



## Stalker0

hehe honestly Sith survive cuts to the abdomen so often I'm survived it hasn't just been made a sith power yet.

Anakin - Gets his legs cut off and lives.
Maul - Gets his lower half cut off and lives.

In context, the Inquisitor just get a stab through the gut is practically a flesh wound!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Stalker0 said:


> hehe honestly Sith survive cuts to the abdomen so often I'm survived it hasn't just been made a sith power yet.
> 
> Anakin - Gets his legs cut off and lives.
> Maul - Gets his lower half cut off and lives.
> 
> In context, the Inquisitor just get a stab through the gut is practically a flesh wound!




This is why I sometimes doubt the death of that one Inquisitor in Rebels who only fell to his "death". As far as I can remember, no body was shown either, so Disney/Lucasfilm has a loophole there to bring at least one of them back from the dead.


----------



## Tonguez

Talking about the bounty hunters

Has the Dinosaur headed alien ever appeared in canon before - or did they just pull a T-Rex mask out of the props bin?


----------



## pukunui

Tonguez said:


> Talking about the bounty hunters
> 
> Has the Dinosaur headed alien ever appeared in canon before - or did they just pull a T-Rex mask out of the props bin?



Well, considering that's how Wolfman ended up in the Mos Eisley cantina ...


----------



## Rabulias

Stalker0 said:


> hehe honestly Sith survive cuts to the abdomen so often I'm survived it hasn't just been made a sith power yet.
> 
> Anakin - Gets his legs cut off and lives.
> Maul - Gets his lower half cut off and lives.
> 
> In context, the Inquisitor just get a stab through the gut is practically a flesh wound!



This. We just saw two folks severely wounded in the abdomen get cybernetic repairs in _Book of Boba Fett._ I think abdomen wounds and lopped-off limbs are like common injuries in the GFFA.


----------



## Flamestrike

Rabulias said:


> This. We just saw two folks severely wounded in the abdomen get cybernetic repairs in _Book of Boba Fett._ I think abdomen wounds and lopped-off limbs are like common injuries in the GFFA.



_
*Jedi*: What happened to the Inquisitor?

*Padawan*: He's dead. I cut him in half with a lightsaber, and then severed three of his limbs, before tossing him down a bottomless shaft on the Death Star, where he was finally swallowed by a Sarlacc...

*Jedi*: You have much to learn my young Padawan..._


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Tonguez said:


> I think the Reva actress was fine, the writing might need improvement though.



She is playing a character who is so unpleasant even her evil colleagues hate her. It's a bit of a bum wrap for an actor!


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Huh, I wouldn't have called out the Grand Inquisitor as a better example. He came across as "grumpy middle management" to me, nowhere near the screen presence he had in Rebels.



He is played by Rupert Friend, who is a very experienced actor.


----------



## Nikosandros

Stalker0 said:


> hehe honestly Sith survive cuts to the abdomen so often I'm survived it hasn't just been made a sith power yet.
> 
> Anakin - Gets his legs cut off and lives.
> Maul - Gets his lower half cut off and lives.
> 
> In context, the Inquisitor just get a stab through the gut is practically a flesh wound!



'Tis but a scratch.


----------



## Zardnaar

FitzTheRuke said:


> I'm gonna have to hard disagree with you there. I find her an absolute _delight_.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm always surprised how often I need to explain this to Star Wars fans: The Force is "with" her! "May the Force Be With You" is not an empty platitude in Star Wars.
> 
> When the force is with you, you get all the good luck, and your opponents get all the bad luck. Leia is a perfect example. She almost never misses her target when she fires a blaster, and Storm Troopers (who, in spite of what we seem to be shown, are supposed to be excellent shots) ALWAYS MISS. It's not that Storm Troopers SUCK, it's that we're constantly watching characters who the Force is WITH.
> 
> Those guys chasing her stumble over trees because the force is with HER, not THEM.
> 
> 
> 
> THIS, I agree with you wholeheartedly!




 In the old SWSE rules heroes and important villains get force points. Mooks don't.

 I thought young Leia looked closer to 8 than 10 but she can grow up with the role over next 2-4 years and they can always advance the clock in universe. 

 She wasn't great but she's 9 years old she did fine lol.  Her dialogue to her cousin wasn't a kid talking though. I liked her. 

 Reva is unpleasant but she's a villain so it's fine. She's not a cool villain like Vader or Thrawn.


----------



## Tonguez

Paul Farquhar said:


> She is playing a character who is so unpleasant even her evil colleagues hate her. It's a bit of a bum wrap for an actor!



The others kept reminding herus that she is impulsive, reckless, obsessed with Obi-wan and willing to ignore chain of command - all the classic traits of Star Wars anti-heroes/memorable villains, but in her case betrayed by one note characterisation


----------



## Zardnaar

Tonguez said:


> The others kept reminding herus that she is impulsive, reckless, obsessed with Obi-wan and willing to ignore chain of command - all the classic traits of Star Wars anti-heroes/memorable villains, but in her case betrayed by one note characterisation




 Yeah I don't really care about Reva sooner she falls on a lightsaber the better. 

 She's just to intense/one dimensional in a vwa ha ha cheese all way.

Chaotic stupid in live action.


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> Yeah I don't really care about Reva sooner she falls on a lightsaber the better.
> 
> She's just to intense/one dimensional in a vwa ha ha cheese all way.
> 
> Chaotic stupid in live action.



They could've done with more "show don't tell" in her relationship with the other inquisitors, but I'd hardly call her stupid. The inquisitors have given up on Kenobi after failing to find him for ten years, and she drew him out in a couple of days - and by using the methods espoused by the Grand Inquisitor too.


----------



## MoonSong

Zardnaar said:


> I think the clone wars cartoon redeemed the prequels



I don't think the prequels were ever in need of any redemption...


----------



## Janx

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Those kids would still be too young to be that Jedi or Reva. They both look in their 20s and those kids would still be teens, if any survived. Remember that this is 10 years after Order 66.



and ten year old Leia looks like she's five.

Casting hasn't quite figured out age/sizing for child actors...


----------



## Morrus

Janx said:


> and ten year old Leia looks like she's five.
> 
> Casting hasn't quite figured out age/sizing for child actors...



Could we all stop commenting on the appearance of a 9 year old child, please? Whether you think she looks her age or not, I don’t think this is a good look for us.


----------



## Janx

Paul Farquhar said:


> Reva clearly has more backstory to be disclosed. She is presumably one of the younglings seen during the opening attack on the Jedi temple sequence, maybe she knew Anakin from the temple, then recognised pre-armour Vader during the attack?



that's my assumption.  some kind of young jedi-person during order 66.  

For her to spend 10 years hunting Kenobi, she has to have a reason, especially as a young-ish character (20s)


----------



## Janx

Morrus said:


> Could we all stop commenting on the appearance of a 9 year old child, please? Whether you think she looks her age or not, I don’t think this is a good look for us.



sorry, I was on page 2 and not caught up.


----------



## Hriston

I was surprised that the story touched so directly on the main plot line of the films. I have a few thoughts on this:

Obi-Wan takes an almost identical position to Luke's when he first appears in the sequel trilogy. I.e. "the time of the jedi is over". I was a bit surprised to hear this coming out of Obi-Wan's mouth. Clearly he'll need to reverse this by the end of the series, so he can be the person we see in episode IV that trains and passes the tradition on to Luke.

The thing that pulls him back into the action, i.e. "save Princess Leia", is the same call he answered in episode IV. He also pulls a similar move, "sacrificing" himself to allow the princess to escape.

The revelation that Vader survived their last meeting makes Obi-Wan aware of his own culpability not only in the failure of the jedi but in the deaths of those who have been hunted down by the inquisitors. What he does with this knowledge will be critical to the next episode. Does he seek to finish the job he left incomplete, or does he find some other synthesis having to do with the prophecy of the One? I expect this will be resolved with the understanding that it's Luke who must confront Vader.


----------



## pukunui

Hriston said:


> Obi-Wan takes an almost identical position to Luke's when he first appears in the sequel trilogy. I.e. "the time of the jedi is over". I was a bit surprised to hear this coming out of Obi-Wan's mouth. Clearly he'll need to reverse this by the end of the series, so he can be the person we see in episode IV that trains and passes the tradition on to Luke.



The important word being "almost" in that he's not advocating for the Jedi to end, since he makes it clear to Owen that he still wants to train Luke once he's old enough. Obi-Wan is very much in survival mode when we first see him, but he's not interested in burning it all to the ground like old Luke is. He's just trying to hang in there until the time is right for him to come out of hiding again ...



Hriston said:


> The revelation that Vader survived their last meeting makes Obi-Wan aware of his own culpability not only in the failure of the jedi but in the deaths of those who have been hunted down by the inquisitors. What he does with this knowledge will be critical to the next episode. Does he seek to finish the job he left incomplete, or does he find some other synthesis having to do with the prophecy of the One? I expect this will be resolved with the understanding that it's Luke who must confront Vader.



I am anticipating another showdown between Obi-Wan and Vader, which will put a new spin on Vader's EP 4 comment about sensing a presence he hasn't felt since conveniently whenever.


----------



## Maxperson

Stalker0 said:


> hehe honestly Sith survive cuts to the abdomen so often I'm survived it hasn't just been made a sith power yet.
> 
> Anakin - Gets his legs cut off and lives.
> Maul - Gets his lower half cut off and lives.
> 
> In context, the Inquisitor just get a stab through the gut is practically a flesh wound!



It killed Qiu Gon Jinn.


----------



## Davies

Maxperson said:


> It killed Qiu Gon Jinn.



On the other hand, that may have been voluntary on his part, a method to achieve transcendence.

Or maybe I'm just stirring the pot again.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Maxperson said:


> It killed Qiu Gon Jinn.




Evil always seems harder to kill. Look at all the Jedi who died just from some blaster fire during Order 66.


----------



## Zaukrie

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Evil always seems harder to kill. Look at all the Jedi who died just from some blaster fire during Order 66.



Troopers can only hit during the turn Order 66 is given, clearly.


----------



## Maxperson

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Evil always seems harder to kill. Look at all the Jedi who died just from some blaster fire during Order 66.



It's hard to overcome the power of plot.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Maxperson said:


> It's hard to overcome the power of plot.



The Dark Side was making its move! The force, to their surprise, was not "with" the Jedi.


----------



## Zaukrie

It's not really plot. It's an unwillingness to use new characters and some need to resurrect characters. It's one of the biggest issues with Star wars. Trillions of beings, and they can't find more than a handful to use.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Zaukrie said:


> It's not really plot. It's an unwillingness to use new characters and some need to resurrect characters. It's one of the biggest issues with Star wars. Trillions of beings, and they can't find more than a handful to use.




I think they're finally starting slowly to work toward doing more different things (at least I hope so), but I absolutely agree with you, and have made the observation that for a Galaxy-Wide setting, it sure feels "small". I think that the prequels were the first to set that terrible precedent, by going back to Tatooine and trying to shove in as many younger versions of already-seen characters as possible. 

It's a shockingly small galaxy, when we see all the same people and all the same planets over and over again. 

I hope they start to branch out as they start to figure out what works and what doesn't. Hollywood always seems to think that people want the illusion of the new, while really wanting the familiar. I would say it's really the opposite: We want the illusion of the familiar, while really getting something new.


----------



## Flamestrike

FitzTheRuke said:


> I think they're finally starting slowly to work toward doing more different things (at least I hope so), but I absolutely agree with you, and have made the observation that for a Galaxy-Wide setting, it sure feels "small". I think that the prequels were the first to set that terrible precedent, by going back to Tatooine and trying to shove in as many younger versions of already-seen characters as possible.
> 
> It's a shockingly small galaxy, when we see all the same people and all the same planets over and over again.
> 
> I hope they start to branch out as they start to figure out what works and what doesn't. Hollywood always seems to think that people want the illusion of the new, while really wanting the familiar. I would say it's really the opposite: We want the illusion of the familiar, while really getting something new.




The biggest mistake from Disney was to stick in the same time period with the same characters. Most SW fans basically disregard the Sequels as expensive fan fiction (and head canon the Saga ending at episode 6) along with a fair bit of the other films and TV.

I really want to see an Old Republic setting. You could do a whole Game of Thrones type TV show, but set in the Old Republic. That would be dope.


----------



## Dire Bare

Zaukrie said:


> It's not really plot. It's an unwillingness to use new characters and some need to resurrect characters. It's one of the biggest issues with Star wars. Trillions of beings, and they can't find more than a handful to use.



Like Din Djarin, the Mandalorian? And his charge, Grogu, "Baby Yoda"?

Star Wars is definitely expanding on characters from the classic movies heavily, but . . . giving Boba Fett and Obi Wan their own series, who's really complaining? And each series has had plenty of new characters.

The upcoming Star Wars series in 2022 and 2023 will also bring back some fan-favorite characters, Cassian Andor and Ahsoka Tano at the top of the list! But those shows will also give us a lot of new secondary characters as well. But we are also getting series centered around new characters, and characters introduced in the Mandalorian. Lucasfilm has already stated that's the future of Star Wars . . . moving away from the "Skywalker Saga".


----------



## trappedslider

i'm gonna use something Morrus said in a star trek thread:

SW: here’s some new stuff!

Fans: no! It’s too different! Show us old stuff!

SW: ok here’s some old stuff that’s not different

SW: no! that’s too much the same

SW: oh FFS


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Janx said:


> that's my assumption.  some kind of young jedi-person during order 66.
> 
> For her to spend 10 years hunting Kenobi, she has to have a reason, especially as a young-ish character (20s)



A couple of suggestions.

1) She was hiding in the Jedi temple after the massacre. Kenobi failed to rescue her.

2) She was rescued by Vader when he was still good looking and hero-worships him. She blames Kenobi for what happened to him.


----------



## Davies

3) She was almost recruited for the Jedi order shortly before Episode III, but was rejected (possibly by Kenobi, or possibly he was just present) for being too old.

Or maybe I'm just making up naughty word that not even I believe, since I'm a total liar who only comes into threads to annoy my betters.


----------



## Maxperson

4) She was found on the street as a force sensitive and trained in the dark side of the force.  She has a deep seated need to prove herself and rise in power, and she views Kenobi as the fastest way to climb the power structure and get the recognition she craves.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Davies said:


> 3) She was almost recruited for the Jedi order shortly before Episode III, but was rejected (possibly by Kenobi, or possibly he was just present) for being too old.





Maxperson said:


> 4) She was found on the street as a force sensitive and trained in the dark side of the force. She has a deep seated need to prove herself and rise in power, and she views Kenobi as the fastest way to climb the power structure.



Those _would _be plausible, but in that case the opening sequence of the younglings fleeing the temple attack serves no narrative purpose. Law of narrativium says Reva has to be one of those kids, and is therefore a former Jedi Padawan.


----------



## Davies

Paul Farquhar said:


> Those _would _be plausible, but in that case the opening sequence of the younglings fleeing the temple attack serves no narrative purpose. Law of narrativium says Reva has to be one of those kids, and is therefore a former Jedi Padawan.



Or those kids could come into the story in another way, perhaps involving the odd declaration, "You're not alone".

On the other hand, I'm probably just lying some more, because I'm a worthless human being.


----------



## trappedslider

Davies said:


> On the other hand, I'm probably just lying some more, because I'm a worthless human being.



Are comments like this really needed?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> Those _would _be plausible, but in that case the opening sequence of the younglings fleeing the temple attack serves no narrative purpose. Law of narrativium says Reva has to be one of those kids, and is therefore a former Jedi Padawan.




Those kids were still way too young for any of them to be her 10 years later. They would all be mid to late teens at the time of this show and, at least to me, clearly looks mid-20s, as it does not feel like the show did anything to make the character look younger than the actress. I still feel like she lost a sibling in the temple or a parent was an instructor there or something. She has a real hate for Obi-wan that requires personal loss to justify it. And that personal loss would also easily push her to the Dark Side.


----------



## trappedslider

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Those kids were still way too young for any of them to be her 10 years later. They would all be mid to late teens at the time of this show and, at least to me, clearly looks mid-20s, as it does not feel like the show did anything to make the character look younger than the actress. I still feel like she lost a sibling in the temple or a parent was an instructor there or something. She has a real hate for Obi-wan that requires personal loss to justify it. And that personal loss would also easily push her to the Dark Side.



maybe he took the last pudding cup?


----------



## Davies

trappedslider said:


> Are comments like this really needed?



Yes, it's very important that everyone knows that I should neither be heeded nor respected.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Well, maybe we will find out more on Wed, when the next episode moves to airing on it's normal day. The Jedi youngling who had the tiny bit of dialogue in that scene happens to be a young black actress, so either they are going to Force us to believe she is Reva or she is Reva's sister and did not make it out alive, as I thought there were zero survivors of the attack on the temple.









						Ayaamii Sledge - IMDb
					

Ayaamii Sledge, Actress: Obi-Wan Kenobi. Ayaamii Sledge is an actress, known for Obi-Wan Kenobi (2022), Truth Be Told (2019) and Partners in Rhyme (2021).




					www.imdb.com


----------



## pukunui

Maxperson said:


> 4) She was found on the street as a force sensitive and trained in the dark side of the force.  She has a deep seated need to prove herself and rise in power, and she views Kenobi as the fastest way to climb the power structure and get the recognition she craves.



As I mentioned upthread, Wookieepedia indicates that she was a former Jedi. FWIW.


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Those kids were still way too young for any of them to be her 10 years later. They would all be mid to late teens at the time of this show and, at least to me, clearly looks mid-20s, as it does not feel like the show did anything to make the character look younger than the actress. I still feel like she lost a sibling in the temple or a parent was an instructor there or something. She has a real hate for Obi-wan that requires personal loss to justify it. And that personal loss would also easily push her to the Dark Side.




those kids were around 10 or so werent they - its 10 years later, Reva could be early 20s …


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Davies said:


> Or maybe I'm just making up naughty word that not even I believe, since I'm a total liar who only comes into threads to annoy my betters.






Davies said:


> On the other hand, I'm probably just lying some more, because I'm a worthless human being.



*Mod Note:*

(There may be more like this, but that’s not important at this point)

It would be GREATLY appreciated if you stopped with the passive-aggressive, cross-thread BS.  If other posters get under your skin enough for you to want to post like that, take a moment and…*DON’T*.

INSTEAD, report posts that irritate you.  And/or use your account’s “Ignore” list.

Just don’t behave like that.  It’s a good way to rack up warnings and get banned from threads- *yes, even your own*- or even the site.


----------



## Flamestrike

Dire Bare said:


> Like Din Djarin, the Mandalorian? And his charge, Grogu, "Baby Yoda"?




The series where they insert Ashoka Tano, Boba Fett and Bo Katan before Luke Skywalker and R2-D2 appear at the end?

We have a new protagonist, but he spends a lot of time bumping into the same old characters, on the same old planet, Tatooine.

It's a big Galaxy. We just keep spending our time in the same places (Tatooine mainly) bumping into protagonists from earlier works.


----------



## Morrus

I find it amusing how Star Wars has convinced us to use the word "youngling"!


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Tonguez said:


> those kids were around 10 or so werent they - its 10 years later, Reva could be early 20s …



One of them is confirmed to be Nari (the fugitive jedi). Who appears to be in his early 20s (the actor is older, but he is acting). Reva would be the same. No problem.


----------



## Janx

Morrus said:


> I find it amusing how Star Wars has convinced us to use the word "youngling"!



that's because they won't get off our lawn,


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> Those _would _be plausible, but in that case the opening sequence of the younglings fleeing the temple attack serves no narrative purpose. Law of narrativium says Reva has to be one of those kids, and is therefore a former Jedi Padawan.



It served continuity.  Those seemed like the group that ran into Anakin to me.


----------



## billd91

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Evil always seems harder to kill. Look at all the Jedi who died just from some blaster fire during Order 66.



That's because when good guys/friends/mentors die, it's to give other heroes motivation. If they came back, it would cheapen the inspiration they give/heroism they performed.
Bad guys constantly coming back may be annoying, but dead heroes coming back is really infuriating.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> I find it amusing how Star Wars has convinced us to use the word "youngling"!



I remember being annoyed by the term when they first used it in the prequels. (Really? "Youngling"!?)

I still hate it, but I have gotten used to it.


----------



## Maxperson

FitzTheRuke said:


> I remember being annoyed by the term when they first used it in the prequels. (Really? "Youngling"!?)
> 
> I still hate it, but I have gotten used to it.



Hmm.

Hatchling, nestling, fledgling, duckling, gosling, starling...  Jedi are birds!


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Maxperson said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Hatchling, nestling, fledgling, duckling, gosling, starling...  Jedi are birds!



The word "Padawan" was annoying enough. Lucas doubled down with "youngling".


----------



## Maxperson

FitzTheRuke said:


> The word "Padawan" was annoying enough. Lucas doubled down with "youngling".



Well, I'm not surprised.

Swan, Palawan Blue Flycatcher, Palawan Bulbul, Palawan Flowerpecker, Palawan Scops Owl...

I mean, Palawan?  He changed one letter!  More proof of Jedi being birds!


----------



## Ryujin

FitzTheRuke said:


> I remember being annoyed by the term when they first used it in the prequels. (Really? "Youngling"!?)
> 
> I still hate it, but I have gotten used to it.



The Force is strong with this one.


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> The word "Padawan" was annoying enough. Lucas doubled down with "youngling".



Anything to avoid having to include the dialogue "he's slaughtering children" in your family-friendly movie.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> One of them is confirmed to be Nari (the fugitive jedi). Who appears to be in his early 20s (the actor is older, but he is acting). Reva would be the same. No problem.




Got a link? Because I have seen nothing but speculation and zero confirmation from Disney/Lucasfilm that any of those five children were young versions of any adult character so far.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Tonguez said:


> those kids were around 10 or so werent they - its 10 years later, Reva could be early 20s …




Really? Because they seemed about 6 or 7 to me. But considering all the people who said there was no way the Leia actress was even 9, who knows.


----------



## Hriston

pukunui said:


> The important word being "almost" in that he's not advocating for the Jedi to end, since he makes it clear to Owen that he still wants to train Luke once he's old enough. Obi-Wan is very much in survival mode when we first see him, but he's not interested in burning it all to the ground like old Luke is. He's just trying to hang in there until the time is right for him to come out of hiding again ...
> 
> 
> I am anticipating another showdown between Obi-Wan and Vader, which will put a new spin on Vader's EP 4 comment about sensing a presence he hasn't felt since conveniently whenever.



Well, he didn’t throw the lightsaber offered to him by the young Jedi over his shoulder like Luke did, but he refused it just the same and told him to bury it in the desert. The parallel is obvious and, I think, intentional. 

Digging it up is his first step in acknowledging that the Jedi can be relevant again. It’ll be interesting to see what shape that takes in the coming episodes.


----------



## Maxperson

MarkB said:


> Anything to avoid having to include the dialogue "he's slaughtering children" in your family-friendly movie.



I'm pretty sure that even without that direct dialogue, "he's slaughtering children" was still in that movie.  He killed them.  They were children.  The words wouldn't have made much difference.


----------



## Flamestrike

FitzTheRuke said:


> The word "Padawan" was annoying enough. Lucas doubled down with "youngling".




Lucas didnt invent Youngling. It's been around since the 12th century:

Definition of YOUNGLING


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Flamestrike said:


> Lucas didnt invent Youngling. It's been around since the 12th century:
> 
> Definition of YOUNGLING



I don't think I implied that he _invented_ the word! He _used_ it, in a way that many people (myself included) found cringe-worthy. Like I said earlier, though. I'm used to it now. Still cringe a little inside, though!


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Maxperson said:


> I'm pretty sure that even without that direct dialogue, "he's slaughtering children" was still in that movie.  He killed them.  They were children.  The words wouldn't have made much difference.




All he had to do was to not make the jedi training start so young. Luke being "too old" to start, could have been by a couple of years. Vader killing "padawans" would have been plenty bad enough.


----------



## Flamestrike

Hriston said:


> Well, he didn’t throw the lightsaber offered to him by the young Jedi over his shoulder like Luke did, but he refused it just the same and told him to bury it in the desert. The parallel is obvious and, I think, intentional.
> 
> Digging it up is his first step in acknowledging that the Jedi can be relevant again. It’ll be interesting to see what shape that takes in the coming episodes.




I think we'll see Obi Wan mirror Palpatine and have one of his force powers redirected on him by Reva, changing him into Sir Alec Guinness.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I think it's interesting that Alec Guinness was 63 when he played Obi-Wan. The current show takes place ~9 years before Star Wars (I still have trouble calling it "A New Hope") and Ewan is currently 51. While I have a hard time imagining Ewan looking as old as Guinness did in 9 years, it's not out of the question.


----------



## Flamestrike

FitzTheRuke said:


> All he had to do was to not make the jedi training start so young. Luke being "too old" to start, could have been by a couple of years. Vader killing "padawans" would have been plenty bad enough.




That scene always was just so jarring (as was the fall itself).

He certainly did a few questionable things in the Clone Wars (definately getting more jealous and occasionally dropping the odd force choke here or there) but his fall was just so sudden. Other than killing Dooku and some light genocide on Tatooine, there were not too many other acts, where you could say 'Yep, evil'.

And then suddenly, he's kneeling before the Emperor, and then off back to the place he just left on a speeder, to slaughter a ton of.... children?

Like I know he murdered a bunch of kids a while back on Tatooine (and told Padme about it, when they first started dating, and she was all like 'we all make mistakes sometimes Annie... like WTF?) but still.

Slaughtering the separatists first perhaps, and then Jedi, and then the kids.

*Palpatine*_: Rise, Lord Vader, for your first task as a Sith, I want you to return to the Jedi temple where you were raised and trained, and where your friends all reside, and murder everyone inside. Do what must be done!
*Vader*: Even the younglings?
*Palpatine*: Especially the younglings.
*Vader*: Errr... that sounds a bit intense. Like, you cant get someone else to do that?
*Palpatine*: We didnt join you, you joined us remember? In for a penny, in for a pound my young apprentice. Now off you go. I have an important holonet call I've been dying to make for some time now..._


----------



## MarkB

Flamestrike said:


> That scene always was just so jarring (as was the fall itself).
> 
> He certainly did a few questionable things in the Clone Wars (definately getting more jealous and occasionally dropping the odd force choke here or there) but his fall was just so sudden. Other than killing Dooku and some light genocide on Tatooine, there were not too many other acts, where you could say 'Yep, evil'.
> 
> And then suddenly, he's kneeling before the Emperor, and then off back to the place he just left on a speeder, to slaughter a ton of.... children?
> 
> Like I know he murdered a bunch of kids a while back on Tatooine (and told Padme about it, when they first started dating, and she was all like 'we all make mistakes sometimes Annie... like WTF?) but still.
> 
> Slaughtering the separatists first perhaps, and then Jedi, and then the kids.
> 
> *Palpatine*_: Rise, Lord Vader, for your first task as a Sith, I want you to return to the Jedi temple where you were raised and trained, and where your friends all reside, and murder everyone inside. Do what must be done!
> *Vader*: Even the younglings?
> *Palpatine*: Especially the younglings.
> *Vader*: Errr... that sounds a bit intense. Like, you cant get someone else to do that?
> *Palpatine*: We didnt join you, you joined us remember? In for a penny, in for a pound my young apprentice. Now off you go. I have an important holonet call I've been dying to make for some time now..._



One explanation / rationalisation I've heard is that Palpatine was telling him that he needed to become strong enough with the dark side in order to have the power to save Padme, so he basically deliberately went full-on evil in an effort to power himself up. Still doesn't make it sit any easier.


----------



## Mannahnin

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am happy to see how Leia knows Obi-wan and explains why her ship would be caught near Tatooine and why she would send her "Help Me" message to him in the original movie.



Agreed!



MarkB said:


> They set it up nicely, both in the Inquisitor's speech about how anyone who's still a Jedi will effectively hunt themselves, so Obi-wan's had to bury that side of himself in order to survive, and in his own obvious guilt over Anakin that's made him lose faith in the Jedi code. I think it's still going to be quite a journey for him to come back from that.
> 
> It felt very much in keeping with the rest of what Obi-wan was going through to me. He's got to have a lot of mixed feelings about the clones after having led so many of them in battle. At the same time, I couldn't help wondering whether the clone's Order 66 compulsion was still in there, and if he'd turn murderous in an instant if he caught a glimpse of Obi-wan's lightsaber.



I loved scene.  Nice bit of grounding.  I never much cared for the way the Clone Wars was done in the prequel, but seeing Temuera there as some poor anonymous clone trooper in the gutter was great.



MarkB said:


> Yeah, she's definitely bringing the Leia. I just wonder if they can bring her through all this close contact with Jedi and Inquisitors without playing up the fact that she's strong in the Force too. They've already hinted at it with her almost-supernatural insight into other peoples' personality.



I don't know how much of that is the force and how much of that is her being precociously brilliant, and Bail and Breha's child.  I think the senator and the monarch likely have been training her in understanding people's motivations for as long as she's been alive.



pukunui said:


> Other thoughts: will see see the younglings from the opening scene of the attack on the temple? I assumed they showed them to us not just as a reminder of what happened but because they are important to the story going forward. I wonder if perhaps the Jedi who appealed to Obi-Wan for help before being caught was one of them.
> 
> What did the Grand Inquisitor mean when he described the Third Sister (Reva) as being “from the gutter”? She seems old enough to have been a youngling, but that comment makes me think she was never a Jedi but was a Force sensitive found by the Empire.






MarkB said:


> I think those two questions may be of a piece. One of those younglings looks like she could have grown up to be Third Sister, and she's even centred in the frame during the "what do we do now?" "we run." exchange, then takes the lead as they start running.






Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Those kids would still be too young to be that Jedi or Reva. They both look in their 20s and those kids would still be teens, if any survived. Remember that this is 10 years after Order 66.






Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Just looked up the age of the two actors and the one who played the Jedi is 36 and Moses Ingram/Reva is 29. So no way he is playing one of the kids, but I could see them trying to stretch it to make Reva maybe still late teens and maybe a child survivor of Order 66, or just as easy it could be family she lost that day and blames Obi-wan for letting it happen/not being their to protect them. She definitely has a personal grudge against him, though.



Yeah, the way the temple scene was placed, it seems like the intent is for Nari and Reva to have been two of the kids who escaped from the temple, and they're just supposed to be playing 20 year olds.  The theory that Reva is the older sister of one of the slaughtered kids is also very reasonable, though.  I wondered if Kumail's Haja was also going to be one of them, pulling a double-bluff, but was definitely happy with what they did with him.

The "from the gutter" line I think is meant to both convey his disdain for her Jedi childhood and to spotlight the race politics Star Wars has always included, with its human supremacist space nazis, for greater emotional effect. I don't think it's any coincidence that the Grand Inquisitor is whiter than White.



Benjamin Olson said:


> Well so far I love this show. I think bringing in little Leia was just a fantastically inspired idea. It recontextualizes why original movie Leia had such absolute faith in Obi-Wan Kenobi as the person she should turn to when she's in desperate need. It gives substantially more character development to the original trilogy main character who was most conspicuously underutilized. I had also always wondered about her pre-original trilogy life on Alderaan, as we just never got much information about it. It even raises the emotional stakes of Alderaan's destruction a little to have actually visited it not just in video games.
> 
> And the child actress is just doing a phenomenal job.
> 
> Ewan McGregor of course knocks his character out of the park, but we all just assumed he would, so that's not nearly as exciting as him getting paired with 10 year-old Leia.






MarkB said:


> And Leia wasn't exactly tall even as an adult, so the actress's height works.



Yeah, I loved her. Is she perfect as an actor? No. But she had multiple great scenes, and even the wooden bits (from her and others) seemed highly appropriate for Star Wars. I remember Carrie Fisher's remarks on Lucas' dialogue, and much as I love the original trilogy, much of the dialogue is far from naturalistic. And I think the acting in this was generally superior to the prequel trilogy. I thought she looked a LITTLE small, but then reflected that kids grow at different rates, and that Carrie Fisher was tiny; about 5' 1".



FitzTheRuke said:


> I'm always surprised how often I need to explain this to Star Wars fans: The Force is "with" her! "May the Force Be With You" is not an empty platitude in Star Wars.
> 
> When the force is with you, you get all the good luck, and your opponents get all the bad luck. Leia is a perfect example. She almost never misses her target when she fires a blaster, and Storm Troopers (who, in spite of what we seem to be shown, are supposed to be excellent shots) ALWAYS MISS. It's not that Storm Troopers SUCK, it's that we're constantly watching characters who the Force is WITH.
> 
> Those guys chasing her stumble over trees because the force is with HER, not THEM.



Yup. In-canon plot armor. I had a negative gut reaction about her outrunning full-grown adults, but it was assuaged by reminding myself a) Trope, b) The Force, c) they DID show her ducking through and under tight spots multiple times.


----------



## Mezuka

That is sad.
‘Star Wars’ calls out racism after attacks on Moses Ingram​








						'Star Wars' calls out racism after attacks on Moses Ingram | CNN
					

The "Star Wars" franchise is sticking up for "Obi-Wan Kenobi" actor Moses Ingram after she revealed she had received hundreds of racist messages and comments on social media.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## South by Southwest

Mezuka said:


> That is sad.
> ‘Star Wars’ calls out racism after attacks on Moses Ingram​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Star Wars' calls out racism after attacks on Moses Ingram | CNN
> 
> 
> The "Star Wars" franchise is sticking up for "Obi-Wan Kenobi" actor Moses Ingram after she revealed she had received hundreds of racist messages and comments on social media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



Some people, man.....

Would these same individuals send racist hate-mail to Mr. James Earl Jones for voicing Vader?? I mean, exactly what is their problem???


----------



## Mezuka

South by Southwest said:


> Some people, man.....
> 
> Would these same individuals send racist hate-mail to Mr. James Earl Jones for voicing Vader?? I mean, exactly what is their problem???



They are bigots. Simple as that.


----------



## Morrus

South by Southwest said:


> Some people, man.....
> 
> Would these same individuals send racist hate-mail to Mr. James Earl Jones for voicing Vader?? I mean, exactly what is their problem???



I think we know what their problem is. They’re racists.


----------



## Nikosandros

MarkB said:


> One explanation / rationalisation I've heard is that Palpatine was telling him that he needed to become strong enough with the dark side in order to have the power to save Padme, so he basically deliberately went full-on evil in an effort to power himself up. Still doesn't make it sit any easier.



My "explanation" is that by saving Palpatine and betraying Windu he kinda broke the dam and was completely overwhelmed by the Dark Side.


----------



## South by Southwest

Morrus said:


> I think we know what their problem is. They’re racists.



I know--I just always find that entire mindset incomprehensible, though. It is such a deranged way of thinking.


----------



## Flamestrike

MarkB said:


> One explanation / rationalisation I've heard is that Palpatine was telling him that he needed to become strong enough with the dark side in order to have the power to save Padme, so he basically deliberately went full-on evil in an effort to power himself up. Still doesn't make it sit any easier.




I could have gotten behind a war weary Anakin, keen to see the war over after a decade of fighting it, so he can retire from the Jedi Order and be with his wife, being tasked to go on a special mission by Palpatine to terminate the Separatists who have just surrendered (and then taking things waaaaaay too far) 'for the greater good.'

So basically what happened on Mustafar.

Then the Jedi turn on him for the slaughter, and also find out Palps is the Sith. Palpatine then asks for his help again, to stop the new (Jedi-Sith) civil war about to erupt, and him making the hard decision to side with Palpatine, and going after the Jedi, because the die is basically already cast.

Ending with him killing kids.

The war is over, we now have peace and order, and then before he gets to enjoy it, Obi Wan pops up and they duel.

Instead Lucas did it in reverse, and it just feels so rushed, arbitrary and (notwithstanding his prior act of genocide) false to his character in many ways.


----------



## Ryujin

Flamestrike said:


> That scene always was just so jarring (as was the fall itself).
> 
> He certainly did a few questionable things in the Clone Wars (definately getting more jealous and occasionally dropping the odd force choke here or there) but his fall was just so sudden. Other than killing Dooku and some light genocide on Tatooine, there were not too many other acts, where you could say 'Yep, evil'.
> 
> And then suddenly, he's kneeling before the Emperor, and then off back to the place he just left on a speeder, to slaughter a ton of.... children?
> 
> Like I know he murdered a bunch of kids a while back on Tatooine (and told Padme about it, when they first started dating, and she was all like 'we all make mistakes sometimes Annie... like WTF?) but still.
> 
> Slaughtering the separatists first perhaps, and then Jedi, and then the kids.
> 
> *Palpatine*_: Rise, Lord Vader, for your first task as a Sith, I want you to return to the Jedi temple where you were raised and trained, and where your friends all reside, and murder everyone inside. Do what must be done!
> *Vader*: Even the younglings?
> *Palpatine*: Especially the younglings.
> *Vader*: Errr... that sounds a bit intense. Like, you cant get someone else to do that?
> *Palpatine*: We didnt join you, you joined us remember? In for a penny, in for a pound my young apprentice. Now off you go. I have an important holonet call I've been dying to make for some time now..._



It's just three Darkside Points to fall, at which point he becomes a NPC. Some GMs just can't carry a through-line.


----------



## Flamestrike

Ryujin said:


> It's just three Darkside Points to fall, at which point he becomes a NPC. Some GMs just can't carry a through-line.




Wisdom score in SWSE. So you need like 13+ because Wisdom is a pretty key stat for a Jedi.

Would love to know how many he racked up in the little 'incident' on Tatooine with the Tuskens...


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Really? Because they seemed about 6 or 7 to me. But considering all the people who said there was no way the Leia actress was even 9, who knows.



Heh, yeah that was my little in-joke to myself due to not being able to tell Leias age either - so maybe those kids were from 7 - 12? I don’t know. But if Leia actress is 9 then maybe those jedi younglings were too.
did a rewatch and the first youngling we see in close up is a black girl (human?) - makes sense to link her to Reva


----------



## pukunui

Flamestrike said:


> That scene always was just so jarring (as was the fall itself).
> 
> He certainly did a few questionable things in the Clone Wars (definately getting more jealous and occasionally dropping the odd force choke here or there) but his fall was just so sudden. Other than killing Dooku and some light genocide on Tatooine, there were not too many other acts, where you could say 'Yep, evil'.
> 
> And then suddenly, he's kneeling before the Emperor, and then off back to the place he just left on a speeder, to slaughter a ton of.... children?
> 
> Like I know he murdered a bunch of kids a while back on Tatooine (and told Padme about it, when they first started dating, and she was all like 'we all make mistakes sometimes Annie... like WTF?) but still.
> 
> Slaughtering the separatists first perhaps, and then Jedi, and then the kids.
> 
> *Palpatine*_: Rise, Lord Vader, for your first task as a Sith, I want you to return to the Jedi temple where you were raised and trained, and where your friends all reside, and murder everyone inside. Do what must be done!
> *Vader*: Even the younglings?
> *Palpatine*: Especially the younglings.
> *Vader*: Errr... that sounds a bit intense. Like, you cant get someone else to do that?
> *Palpatine*: We didnt join you, you joined us remember? In for a penny, in for a pound my young apprentice. Now off you go. I have an important holonet call I've been dying to make for some time now..._



I think it might count as non-canonical now, but IMO the novelization of Ep 3 does a much better job depicting Anakin’s fall than the movie does.


----------



## Dire Bare

FitzTheRuke said:


> I think it's interesting that Alec Guinness was 63 when he played Obi-Wan. The current show takes place ~9 years before Star Wars (I still have trouble calling it "A New Hope") and Ewan is currently 51. While I have a hard time imagining Ewan looking as old as Guinness did in 9 years, it's not out of the question.



Obi-Wan looks pretty rough in the first two episodes . . . it would be kinda fun if Lucasfilm aged him significantly over the series! Fighting off inquisitors is hard on the body! Especially on harsh Tatooine!


----------



## Morrus

Dire Bare said:


> Obi-Wan looks pretty rough in the first two episodes . . .



Yikes. Tough crowd. I hope I look that good when I’m 50.


----------



## Dire Bare

Morrus said:


> Yikes. Tough crowd. I hope I look that good when I’m 50.



Heh, heh . . . I turn 50 in less than a month, and I look way worse than Ewan McGregor! I look more like Alec Guinness did in A New Hope, only a bit shorter, pudgier, and without that British regality . . .

My words were poorly chosen, McGregor doesn't really look older than his age, both IRL or as Obi-Wan in the series. But as Obi-Wan, he does look like he's been living in the desert for 10 years, and hasn't been taking great care of himself. But despite that, he started as sexy Obi-Wan, and still is a rougher sexy . . .


----------



## pukunui

Yeah, it would be great if they at least gave a nod to Obi-Wan's seeming accelerated aging between the prequel and original trilogies.

Also, the next episode is out tonight (Weds), right?


----------



## Davies

pukunui said:


> Yeah, it would be great if they at least gave a nod to Obi-Wan's seeming accelerated aging between the prequel and original trilogies.
> 
> Also, the next episode is out tonight (Weds), right?



Yes, at midnight Pacific time.


----------



## Dire Bare

pukunui said:


> Yeah, it would be great if they at least gave a nod to Obi-Wan's seeming accelerated aging between the prequel and original trilogies.
> 
> Also, the next episode is out tonight (Weds), right?



Wednesday, June 1! But I don't think they release it at 12:01 am . . . not sure what time the episode goes live.


----------



## trappedslider

there's at least one movie in between this and A New Hope


----------



## pukunui

Davies said:


> Yes, at midnight Pacific time.





Dire Bare said:


> Wednesday, June 1! But I don't think they release it at 12:01 am . . . not sure what time the episode goes live.



Thank you both. I live in the future (aka New Zealand), where it's already Weds. New shows usually pop up on Disney+ around 8:30 or 9pm our time. Sounds about right for shortly after midnight Pacific time (we're currently 19 hours ahead of the US west coast.)


----------



## South by Southwest

Morrus said:


> Yikes. Tough crowd. I hope I look that good when I’m 50.


----------



## Rabulias

FitzTheRuke said:


> I think it's interesting that Alec Guinness was 63 when he played Obi-Wan. The current show takes place ~9 years before Star Wars (I still have trouble calling it "A New Hope") and Ewan is currently 51. While I have a hard time imagining Ewan looking as old as Guinness did in 9 years, it's not out of the question.



Yeah in another thread recently I had a hard time believing that William Hartnell was 55 when he was cast as the first Doctor. I am 55 and look nowhere near that old (if I say so myself). Maybe it's better nutrition, health, etc., in the last half century? Or maybe living through World War II would age anyone.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

FitzTheRuke said:


> I think it's interesting that Alec Guinness was 63 when he played Obi-Wan. The current show takes place ~9 years before Star Wars (I still have trouble calling it "A New Hope") and Ewan is currently 51. While I have a hard time imagining Ewan looking as old as Guinness did in 9 years, it's not out of the question.



It was Guinness who looked older than his years. But one might imagine Kenobi deliberately making himself look older as a disguise.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

South by Southwest said:


> Some people, man.....
> 
> Would these same individuals send racist hate-mail to Mr. James Earl Jones for voicing Vader?? I mean, exactly what is their problem???



Have you seen Kevin Smith's _Chasing Amy?_


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Rabulias said:


> Yeah in another thread recently I had a hard time believing that William Hartnell was 55 when he was cast as the first Doctor. I am 55 and look nowhere near that old (if I say so myself). Maybe it's better nutrition, health, etc., in the last half century? Or maybe living through World War II would age anyone.



If you look at Hartnell's pre-Doctor Who roles he looks old in all of them. He is one of those people who was born looking old!

But my dad lived through WW2, and he has more hair and less grey than I do.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

trappedslider said:


> there's at least one movie in between this and A New Hope



I thought that came between _The Main Course_ and _Coffee_?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Dire Bare said:


> Obi-Wan looks pretty rough in the first two episodes . . .



When 51 years old you are, look as good you will not.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

One part that didn't work for me was little Leia making fun of how elderly Obi-Wan looked. He looks younger than her dad! 

It seemed like something written by someone who assumed that Ewan McGregor had continued to age like a normal person for the last decade and a half since he finished the prequels, whereas as far as I can tell he mostly chose not to.


----------



## Tonguez

Benjamin Olson said:


> One part that didn't work for me was little Leia making fun of how elderly Obi-Wan looked. He looks younger than her dad!




he is younger than her Dad, Smits is 66. Of course Leia knows shes adopted. Simone is 47


----------



## Davies

God bless you, Mr. Jones. You did not have to come back yet again, but you did. Thank you. Thank you for one last gift of dread.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Benjamin Olson said:


> One part that didn't work for me was little Leia making fun of how elderly Obi-Wan looked. He looks younger than her dad!



You haven't met many children?!

To them every adult looks ancient.


----------



## Flamestrike

Vader was sufficiently menacing and evil.  Obi Wan is still a chump. Cant you switch that force stuff back on bro?

Then Vader chumped out. It's like he forgot he can use telekinesis, crush things at range, leap with the force or throw his lightsaber. Just looked on as Kenobi was getting evacuated.

On a related note, it reminded me of a scene we were apparently supposed to get in R1. A bunch of Rebel mooks sitting around a table talking about this bogeyman evil cyborg murdery space wizard... then Vader turns up (breathing first) and then from the darkness murders the lot of them.  It evolved into the R1 hallway scene (literally the best thing Disney has done to date).


----------



## Davies

Flamestrike said:


> Then Vader chumped out. It's like he forgot he can use telekinesis, crush things at range, leap with the force or throw his lightsaber. Just looked on as Kenobi was getting evacuated.



I don't think he forgot. I think he's just indulging himself and enjoying the chase.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Paul Farquhar said:


> You haven't met many children?!
> 
> To them every adult looks ancient.



Yeah, no I get that. It's just the little bit of dialogue along the lines of:

Kenobi: if anyone asks you're my daughter 
Leia: (mutters) Granddaughter maybe...

...that didn't ring true for a kid whose used to being the daughter of a character played by Jimmy Smits, an older actor who looks it.


----------



## pukunui

So maybe the Grand Inquisitor _is _dead? Or else he's going to pop up again somewhere and go _"Surprise?! Didja miss me?"_ If he is dead, and he doesn't come back, then there's a bit of a continuity error there.

Was it just me or did the glow of the lightsabers look different, as if they were using those LED light-up ones instead of relying on post-production? The glow just seemed to be a whole lot more intense - Obi-Wan looked like he was practically blinded by the light of his.



Davies said:


> God bless you, Mr. Jones. You did not have to come back yet again, but you did. Thank you. Thank you for one last gift of dread.



Yeah, I don't think they're going to be able to get him in to do voice work for too much longer. 



Flamestrike said:


> Then Vader chumped out. It's like he forgot he can use telekinesis, crush things at range, leap with the force or throw his lightsaber. Just looked on as Kenobi was getting evacuated.





Davies said:


> I don't think he forgot. I think he's just indulging himself and enjoying the chase.



That, and maybe there's still a teeny bit of internal conflict going on in there. He might not be quite ready to murder his old friend and master like he did those poor innocent people in the village. (As an aside, the scene of Vader getting put together after his bacta bath was awesomely creepy. "More machine than man" indeed!



Benjamin Olson said:


> ...that didn't ring true for a kid whose used to being the daughter of a character played by Jimmy Smits, an older actor who looks it.



That's just her being sassy. I'm sure Carrie would've loved it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Benjamin Olson said:


> Yeah, no I get that. It's just the little bit of dialogue along the lines of:
> 
> Kenobi: if anyone asks you're my daughter
> Leia: (mutters) Granddaughter maybe...
> 
> ...that didn't ring true for a kid whose used to being the daughter of a character played by Jimmy Smits, an older actor who looks it.



1) He has a greying unkempt beard. To a kid, that adds decades.

2) She is being cheeky.


----------



## MarkB

Well, Vader can still do terrifying just fine. I had chills when he caught up with Kenobi.

I was really missing the John Williams score during their confrontation, though.

That escape tunnel has very strange properties. The woman who was helping them (not sure if we actually got a name for her on-screen) was able to go all the way back and then get out to the quarry area without encountering Reva, who was standing at the start of it. And then Reva was able to get to the other end of it without encountering Leia along the way.


----------



## wicked cool

another mixed bag
Reva has become my most annoying star wars character. Seems to be the smartest 1 out there. sucks the life out of scenes

Kenobi/Ben has become unlikeable. This is a jedi master? regardless of his reluctance to use the force or what ever hes doing his part in the fight scene was pathetic 

Vader just killing people like Voorhees. Seemed out of character. to me he always came off as a corrupted knight not some sadistic killer. His reaction to Reva doing her own thing also seems out of character other than the dont fail me

the meeting place? Really they pick this fortified imperial area for a rendevous? Why didnt the driver tell the first 4 stormtroopers he picked up ?

Reva/Vader all get to the planet almost right away. The long tunnel that the kid is jumping around and yet everyone else is in and out so fast

i swear i heard a female stormtrooper at the checkpoint? 

the good
good to see the scout droid
good to see a guest appearance from a GOT actor


----------



## Stalker0

I agree that Vader letting him go seemed really weird, he seemed just happy with the torture (which was a cool scene), so I don’t know if I by the “he’s enjoying the chase”. I mean they been chasing him for 10 years.

Vader killing the people though seemed perfectly fine, as the grand inquisitor said, the Jedi code is an itch you can’t stop scratching. Obi wan saw what Vader was doing and couldn’t step away.

Phew obi wan needs a rocky montage to get back in shape, he performed worse than Rey in her first lightsaber duel


----------



## MarkB

wicked cool said:


> Vader just killing people like Voorhees. Seemed out of character. to me he always came off as a corrupted knight not some sadistic killer.



This is the same Vader who kills his own subordinates out of pique the first moment they screw up? And also, what @Stalker0 said - this is right in line with the "make the Jedi hunt themselves" doctrine of the Inquisitors.


----------



## South by Southwest

Paul Farquhar said:


> Have you seen Kevin Smith's _Chasing Amy?_



I have not, so no, I do not understand the reference.

On the latest episode, though, it's odd to say this in so short a time: all my previous complaints about the acting work of the girl playing Leia evaporated in the first five minutes. To play a double entendre on people who complained about the length of her legs (???), _"I think the girl just needed to find her sea legs."_ And she did; she was completely plausible to me this time.

I still have small reservations about the character of Reva, but even there it's minor: I wish there were a _bit more_ emotional range in her. A this point, though, that truly is a quibble and nothing more.

Tangentially, was I the only one who briefly confused Indira Varma with Natalie Portman? I had a few moments in there where I was saying to myself, _"My God! Did they just sneak Natalie Portman into this show?"_ It was eerie.


----------



## Davies

Stalker0 said:


> I agree that Vader letting him go seemed really weird, he seemed just happy with the torture (which was a cool scene), so I don’t know if I by the “he’s enjoying the chase”. I mean they been chasing him for 10 years.



The torture is what convinced me ... he wants to drag out Obi-Wan's suffering for as long as possible, because (since Sidious has never told him that Yoda survived) there are no members of the Jedi Council out there.


----------



## Dire Bare

MarkB said:


> That escape tunnel has very strange properties. The woman who was helping them (not sure if we actually got a name for her on-screen) was able to go all the way back and then get out to the quarry area without encountering Reva, who was standing at the start of it. And then Reva was able to get to the other end of it without encountering Leia along the way.



I loved episode 3, but I was thinking the same thing . . . how did Tala (_yes, she introduced herself to Obi-Wan_) get past Reva? How did Reva get ahead of Leia?

Another fun fact I picked up while double-checking Tala's name on IMDB . . . Zach Braff voices Freck, the guy driving the hover-truck who gave Obi-Wan and Leia a ride!


----------



## wicked cool

MarkB said:


> This is the same Vader who kills his own subordinates out of pique the first moment they screw up? And also, what @Stalker0 said - this is right in line with the "make the Jedi hunt themselves" doctrine of the Inquisitors.



yes they mess up and he kills them. but killing the civilians just randomly doesnt seem like him. he works with Lando etc


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Only a small part of the tunnel, or tunnel system, was shown. This is a mining area and one single tunnel running in a straight line seems unlikely, so Tala probably used a different exit and did not have to cross paths with Reva. Also, did we actually see Reva going through the tunnels? She could just have easily sensed the direction the main one was going and went back outside and straight to the port, where she killed the pilot and then waited at the tunnel exit for whoever would come out.

As for Vader, maybe he still has one weakness/fear and that is of fire, because of his near death in fire and lava. Sure, he started a small fire, but then Tala shot whatever that was and made it a larger and out-of-control fire, so perhaps Vader was having flashbacks to his near death and just did not act to stop the droid because of that.

As for the actor age thing, I am just pretending that Bail is not actually the same age as Jimmy Smits, as Smits definitely aged more than the rest of the cast. I am just glad they did not go with a different actor of a more accurate age or use de-aging CGI on him.

Edit: also on the age thing, Smits is 66, so maybe 65 when this was filmed. Bail was 67 when he died, so that makes him 57 or 58 in this show. I am now a little surprised they did not do a bit more with makeup and hair dye and stuff to make Smits look more the age of Bail.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Only a small part of the tunnel, or tunnel system, was shown. This is a mining area and one single tunnel running in a straight line seems unlikely, so Tala probably used a different exit and did not have to cross paths with Reva. Also, did we actually see Reva going through the tunnels? She could just have easily sensed the direction the main one was going and went back outside and straight to the port, where she killed the pilot and then waited at the tunnel exit for whoever would come out.



Possibly, but it didn't give the impression of being many branching tunnels, and Tala was confident of Leia being able to navigate the rest of the way unaided, which seemingly was still quite a distance (or, at least, she had to walk through that one 20-foot tunnel set they seemed to have at least three or four more times).

And how small is this port, if Reva can get there ahead of Leia and still have time to search through however many rooms there are in it, and find the one that has one specific tunnel leading into it?


Enevhar Aldarion said:


> As for Vader, maybe he still has one weakness/fear and that is of fire, because of his near death in fire and lava. Sure, he started a small fire, but then Tala shot whatever that was and made it a larger and out-of-control fire, so perhaps Vader was having flashbacks to his near death and just did not act to stop the droid because of that.



Yeah, I can buy that. The fact that he'd literally just raked Kenobi over the coals would have brought the pain of that traumatic experience sharply to the forefront of his mind, so he could easily be very nervous of the fire.


Enevhar Aldarion said:


> As for the actor age thing, I am just pretending that Bail is not actually the same age as Jimmy Smits, as Smits definitely aged more than the rest of the cast. I am just glad they did not go with a different actor of a more accurate age or use de-aging CGI on him.
> 
> Edit: also on the age thing, Smits is 66, so maybe 65 when this was filmed. Bail was 67 when he died, so that makes him 57 or 58 in this show. I am now a little surprised they did not do a bit more with makeup and hair dye and stuff to make Smits look more the age of Bail.



I just don't worry about tracking ages based upon real-world experience. The Star Wars galaxy seems to have human cultures that have grown up independently on thousands of different worlds, so there's no reason to assume that they all age or mature at the same rate as each other, or ourselves.


----------



## Tonguez

Liked this episode better than the last two, and appreciate that they did Vaders voice well.  But disappointed it was a big jump in the plotting and lots of gaping plot holes

and why didnt Tala shoot Vader when she had the chance?


----------



## Morrus

Great to see Vader!

So…. Jedi. Stormtroopers looking for a Jedi. Don’t they have a photo of General Kenobi, hero of the Clone Wars, Jedi Master, the famous guy they’re looking for? Anakin didn’t think to pass on what he looks like? 

And “Hey you, the guy dressed in Jedi robes, so you know of any Jedi nearby?”

That aside. Yeah. Great seeing (and hearing!) Vader! And Leia is still great!


----------



## Flamestrike

Morrus said:


> And “Hey you, the guy dressed in Jedi robes, so you know of any Jedi nearby?”




''Actually... (waves hand) No, I'm not the Jedi you're looking for. You don't need to see my identification.''

''Move along.''


----------



## Davies

Flamestrike said:


> ''Actually... (waves hand) No, I'm not the Jedi you're looking for. You don't need to see my identification.''
> 
> ''Move along.''



Given how we've seen Kenobi struggling with the Force, I don't think the mind trick is within his grasp right now. On the other hand, the opposition doesn't know that.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I meant to ask about this in my last post, but got a bit sidetracked.  lol

Anyway, we have another mention in episode 3 of Obi-wan remembering a baby brother. Other than the mention in the first prequel movie, and now here, is there anything else canon about this? Are we getting a set up for a younger Kenobi to show up in the Mandoverse? Some might not like that, but I think it would be cool if it did happen.


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I meant to ask about this in my last post, but got a bit sidetracked.  lol
> 
> Anyway, we have another mention in episode 3 of Obi-wan remembering a baby brother. Other than the mention in the first prequel movie, and now here, is there anything else canon about this? Are we getting a set up for a younger Kenobi to show up in the Mandoverse? Some might not like that, but I think it would be cool if it did happen.



Its messy, its the first mention in live action canon, however in the draft script for Return of the Jedi, Obi-wan has a brother named *Owen *and* he lives on Tattooine *_(make of that what you will)_


----------



## Ryujin

Tonguez said:


> Its messy, its the first mention in live action canon, however in the draft script for Return of the Jedi, Obi-wans hasa a brother named *Owen *and* he lives on Tattooine *_(make of that what you will)_



I make it crispy.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Tonguez said:


> Its messy, its the first mention in live action canon, however in the draft script for Return of the Jedi, Obi-wans hasa a brother named *Owen *and* he lives on Tattooine *_(make of that what you will)_




Not the first time. Obi-wan talks about his family with Qui-gon, including maybe having a brother.


----------



## pukunui

Some random thoughts:

1) Why is Reva the only Inquisitor referred to by name? (Yes, the Second Sister has a name, but the other inquisitors don't use it. And she's been dead for five years already by the time of this show.)

2) Is there any meaning to the numbering system the inquisitors use? I would've assumed it was either a hierarchy thing or a recruitment order thing, but neither of those really make sense, since Reva is the Third Sister, yet she is also considered the "least" among them and jockeys for position with the Seventh Brother. Is the numbering just random?




wicked cool said:


> Vader just killing people like Voorhees. Seemed out of character. to me he always came off as a corrupted knight not some sadistic killer. His reaction to Reva doing her own thing also seems out of character other than the dont fail me



Vader is walking along and then he stops suddenly, looks in Obi-Wan's direction, and then starts killing people. I figured that the sudden stop is when he first sensed Obi-Wan's presence, and so he started torturing/killing the villagers in order to draw Obi-Wan out.



wicked cool said:


> Reva/Vader all get to the planet almost right away. The long tunnel that the kid is jumping around and yet everyone else is in and out so fast



Travel times in Star Wars have always been a bit vague. Sometimes it takes a while, other times it's super quick. Speed of plot and all that.



wicked cool said:


> i swear i heard a female stormtrooper at the checkpoint?



We did as well!



Dire Bare said:


> I loved episode 3, but I was thinking the same thing . . . how did Tala (_yes, she introduced herself to Obi-Wan_) get past Reva? How did Reva get ahead of Leia?



I assumed she guessed that the tunnel would lead to the spaceport and went around, thus when Tala returned to the building, Reva was no longer there.



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> As for Vader, maybe he still has one weakness/fear and that is of fire, because of his near death in fire and lava. Sure, he started a small fire, but then Tala shot whatever that was and made it a larger and out-of-control fire, so perhaps Vader was having flashbacks to his near death and just did not act to stop the droid because of that.



Good thinking. I am still thinking that he may still feel just a little bit for his old friend and mentor that caused him to hesitate as well.



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> As for the actor age thing, I am just pretending that Bail is not actually the same age as Jimmy Smits, as Smits definitely aged more than the rest of the cast. I am just glad they did not go with a different actor of a more accurate age or use de-aging CGI on him.
> 
> Edit: also on the age thing, Smits is 66, so maybe 65 when this was filmed. Bail was 67 when he died, so that makes him 57 or 58 in this show. I am now a little surprised they did not do a bit more with makeup and hair dye and stuff to make Smits look more the age of Bail.



Yeah, the only one whose age was even a little bit of an issue for me was Smits, since he looks older here than he did in _Rogue One_, which takes place after. (A bit like how Legolas looks older in the _Hobbit _movies even though they take place before LotR.)


----------



## Tonguez

Subtitles confirm Female Stormtrooper


----------



## Benjamin Olson

A little bit of a mixed bag this week. I really loved most of it. Basically any Obi-Wan and Leia scene works for me, the friendly, imperial-collaborating bus driver alien was a fun energy, I generally find any extended conversations with stormtroopers interesting, Darth Vader choking random townspeople is one of those sequences that would have gone straight into the Star Wars movie 12 year-old me would have written, and yeah, we got Vader. QED a good episode. I'm really glad they made this series.

A few things I didn't like:

Obi-Wan instantly giving up on their contact picking them up was clearly just a plot convenience decision. It didn't really make sense and felt awkward. I can forgive the decision for setting up the "bus ride" sequence which I really liked, but it was weak writing, and took me out of the story. Come on show, you're better than that.

Obi-Wan's escape this week via lumbering loader droid because of a moderately large fire everyone could have easily run around (or perhaps force lept over, but that would look awkward with Vader) and caught up with him was an unfortunate note to end on. If they had had the same set up in a confined space it would have made sense, but it just seemed like a poorly staged action sequence to me. While I can head canon it (and hell, maybe they'll come right out and say) that Vader is toying with him, having it be the end of the episode is just made it end on weird note. The fire torture leading up to it worked, Vader lit by flames is a great image to end on, but the escape just didn't really make sense, and whereas a show like this could get me to ignore that in the middle of an episode by immediately distracting me with something else really cool, endings should really be harder to pick apart.

I really think Reva needed more of a distinct personality if they are going to focus on her so much. Most featured one-scene characters on this show are more distinct and memorable than her. Sometimes a character this bland can work for a protagonist as an audience insert/everyman, but as a villain, and in a series full of scene-chewing, cackling villains she's really not doing anything for me. I can imagine here being just a cold, nondescript evil could work as some sort of deconstruction of and comment on Star Wars villainy. Having her kill the grand inquisitor, a sith-central-casting character with little gravitas and more Palpatine-than-Palpatine diction, actually works well for that sort of subversion of typical Star Wars villain trope angle. But if that sort of angle was going to work at all (I don't think it's likely it could in any case) it would have had to be on a series where the quiet, reserved, ordinary, bland villain was actually the main villain. That all went out the window once Vader showed up. Now we have a series with the most iconic and memorable of Star Wars villains and this additional boring woman who just adds nothing but also exists and has a red lightsaber. That doesn't work. I hope they give her a personality soon. Or fewer scenes.


----------



## Maxperson

pukunui said:


> 2) Is there any meaning to the numbering system the inquisitors use? I would've assumed it was either a hierarchy thing or a recruitment order thing, but neither of those really make sense, since Reva is the Third Sister, yet she is also considered the "least" among them and jockeys for position with the Seventh Brother. Is the numbering just random?



I've taken it to mean the order in which they were found.  Here's a girl, let's call her First Sister.  There's another, she can be Second Sister.  And so on.  When you're found, though, doesn't have any bearing on your ability and how quickly you rise through the ranks.

I also enjoyed seeing Obi Wan and Leia land on Planet Southern California and trek through the Joshua Tree laden deserts that are almost my back yard.  Very familiar territory that.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

wicked cool said:


> yes they mess up and he kills them. but killing the civilians just randomly doesnt seem like him. he works with Lando etc



Lando was useful alive, the random civies are more useful dead.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Tonguez said:


> and why didnt Tala shoot Vader when she had the chance?



Because Vader would have deflected the shot and killed her, the rescue would have failed, Kenobi would have died, Luke would have been killed with the Lars family along with R2-D2, and the Emperor would have won.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

wicked cool said:


> i swear i heard a female stormtrooper at the checkpoint?



You did, but that's not new canon. In the Bad Batch some of the first stormtrooper recruits are female.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Maxperson said:


> I also enjoyed seeing Obi Wan and Leia land on Planet Southern California and trek through the Joshua Tree laden deserts that are almost my back yard. Very familiar territory that.



Meh, in Rogue One they ran through a London tube station.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I meant to ask about this in my last post, but got a bit sidetracked.  lol
> 
> Anyway, we have another mention in episode 3 of Obi-wan remembering a baby brother. Other than the mention in the first prequel movie, and now here, is there anything else canon about this? Are we getting a set up for a younger Kenobi to show up in the Mandoverse? Some might not like that, but I think it would be cool if it did happen.



I think it's very likely this is a case of Chekhov's Little Brother.

Even a younger brother would be quite mature (70s) in the Mandalorian though. I think Bad Batch or Andor more likely, if not this show.


----------



## Zardnaar

I love ked tomights episode. Lightsabers looked great in the dark made an awesome visual.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> I think it's very likely this is a case of Chekhov's Little Brother.
> 
> Even a younger brother would be quite mature (70s) in the Mandalorian though. I think Bad Batch or Andor more likely, if not this show.




Obi-wan was only 57 in the original movie, so he is about 48 in this series. And if he remembers a baby brother from when he was 5 or 6 on leaving for Jedi School, that baby brother would be between 65 and 70 at the time of the Mandalorian, So an actor who ages like Ewan and not Jimmy could easily play a character who looks good for his age. But regardless, I don't see why they would bring up his brother again if that brother were not going to show up somewhere in one of the series.


----------



## Flamestrike

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Obi-wan was only 57 in the original movie, so he is about 48 in this series. And if he remembers a baby brother from when he was 5 or 6 on leaving for Jedi School, that baby brother would be between 65 and 70 at the time of the Mandalorian, So an actor who ages like Ewan and not Jimmy could easily play a character who looks good for his age. But regardless, I don't see why they would bring up his brother again if that brother were not going to show up somewhere in one of the series.




Jimmy Smidts is 66 years old. He actually doesnt look too bad for a dude who is pushing 70.


----------



## Davies

Or possibly Owen, having been adopted by Cliegg Lars, is Obi-Wan's brother again.

Nah, too contrived.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I don't see why they would bring up his brother again if that brother were not going to show up somewhere in one of the series.



Simplest explanation is so Ewan can shave his beard and have a cameo in Andor.

Wackiest explanation: Denis Lawson (Wedge) is Ewan's uncle. In fiction turn it around and Kenobi is Wedge's uncle. The Captain Antillies who Vader kills at the beginning of ANH is Wedge's dad/Kenobi's brother.


----------



## Ryujin

Zardnaar said:


> I love ked tomights episode. Lightsabers looked great in the dark made an awesome visual.



Yes, a great visual, but not so great when you're trying to hide


----------



## delericho

I felt it was a good episode, but my big problem came right at the start: they escaped from the first planet on a big, slow-moving cargo ship that must surely have logged a manifest and destination. Couldn't the Empire have just checked where it was going and then intercepted it?


----------



## MarkB

delericho said:


> I felt it was a good episode, but my big problem came right at the start: they escaped from the first planet on a big, slow-moving cargo ship that must surely have logged a manifest and destination. Couldn't the Empire have just checked where it was going and then intercepted it?



Well, fake-Jedi-guy was helping to smuggle them out. Perhaps an element of that was scrambling the dock records to remove the ship's destination data.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Well, fake-Jedi-guy was helping to smuggle them out. Perhaps an element of that was scrambling the dock records to remove the ship's destination data.



Indeed, there seems to be an organised Underground Railroad for Jedi in operation.


----------



## delericho

MarkB said:


> Well, fake-Jedi-guy was helping to smuggle them out. Perhaps an element of that was scrambling the dock records to remove the ship's destination data.



Perhaps, but that still has the "big, slow moving" issue to deal with - with almost all the traffic on/off-world under interdict, a "stop that ship!" instruction and a couple of TIEs should do it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

delericho said:


> Perhaps, but that still has the "big, slow moving" issue to deal with - with almost all the traffic on/off-world under interdict, a "stop that ship!" instruction and a couple of TIEs should do it.



Reva was a little busy covering up the murder of her boss at the time.


----------



## delericho

Paul Farquhar said:


> Reva was a little busy covering up the murder of her boss at the time.



Why? He was killed with a lightsaber and they're chasing a fugitive Jedi.


----------



## wicked cool

at the end of 3 can someone explain the wall? a name was mentioned but i didnt catch it  Are we expecting to see other escapees? Also was that a ghost of the jedi that died in episode 1?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

wicked cool said:


> at the end of 3 can someone explain the wall? a name was mentioned but i didnt catch it



Quinlan Vos. A jedi seen only briefly in Episode I, but expanded in other media. He is shown to have a somewhat fractious relationship with Kenobi when they are teamed up in _The Clone Wars_. He is impulsive where Kenobi is careful.

Evidently he is still alive at this point.


----------



## wicked cool

Paul Farquhar said:


> Quinlan Vos. A jedi seen only briefly in Episode I, but expanded in other media. He is shown to have a somewhat fractious relationship with Kenobi when they are teamed up in _The Clone Wars_. He is impulsive where Kenobi is careful.
> 
> Evidently he is still alive at this point.



hes the one with the face paint? if so thanks.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

wicked cool said:


> hes the one with the face paint? if so thanks.



That's him.


----------



## Ryujin

Just wondering why they bothered to "shoot the lock" on the laser barrier, instead of walking through the open space behind the hut.

_EDIT_ - Yeah, I still enjoyed it


----------



## Mezuka

Ryujin said:


> Just wondering why they bothered to "shoot the lock" on the laser barrier, instead of walking through the open space behind the hut.
> 
> _EDIT_ - Yeah, I still enjoyed it



LOL! Stress maybe...that was a silly moment. Set design failure. Still a great episode.


----------



## embee

I love how Obi Wan Kenobi is always prepared for any situation, no matter what happens or who shows up.

For example, when Darth Vader appears, Kenobi is already very wisely wearing his brown pants. Because... yeah.


----------



## embee

Maxperson said:


> I've taken it to mean the order in which they were found.  Here's a girl, let's call her First Sister.  There's another, she can be Second Sister.  And so on.  When you're found, though, doesn't have any bearing on your ability and how quickly you rise through the ranks.
> 
> I also enjoyed seeing Obi Wan and Leia land on Planet Southern California and trek through the Joshua Tree laden deserts that are almost my back yard.  Very familiar territory that.



I was surprised that they didn't run into any Gorn.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> Just wondering why they bothered to "shoot the lock" on the laser barrier, instead of walking through the open space behind the hut.
> 
> _EDIT_ - Yeah, I still enjoyed it



Yeah I wondered that too. It did occur to me that the area on either side of the checkpoint might be mined.


----------



## embee

FitzTheRuke said:


> While I have a hard time imagining Ewan looking as old as Guinness did in 9 years, it's not out of the question.



Spend a decade living out past the Dune Sea, wondering if Vader is going to come back to finish the job.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> Yeah I wondered that too. It did occur to me that the area on either side of the checkpoint might be mined.



Until they actually walked through, I was expecting them to take the mole-man's truck.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Until they actually walked through, I was expecting them to take the mole-man's truck.



Not the road, the rough country on either side. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean.


----------



## Maxperson

embee said:


> I was surprised that they didn't run into any Gorn.



I've hiked there.  The Vasquez Rocks are a lot of fun.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

embee said:


> I was surprised that they didn't run into any Gorn.



They looked for them, but they had already gorn.


----------



## Ryujin

Maxperson said:


> I've hiked there.  The Vasquez Rocks are a lot of fun.



If you know, then you know.

duh-Duh-DUH-DUH-DUH-DUH-DUH-Duh-DUH-Duh-duh!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

wicked cool said:


> Also was that a ghost of the jedi that died in episode 1?




That was Anakin. Maybe a hallucination or a Force vision or some such. I expect more of that so that people can actually see Hayden's face during the show.


----------



## reelo

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am happy to see how Leia knows Obi-wan and explains why her ship would be caught near Tatooine and why she would send her "Help Me" message to him in the original movie.



That is already sufficiently explained in Rogue One: in that movie Bail Organa specifically mentions that he's meaning to get Obi-Wan (implied) involved, and then says he's gonna send a female someone (Leia) to recruit him.
Leia's ship, the Tantive IV is docked to Admiral Raddus's ship the Profundity when that one joins the fight over Scarif.

This makes it clear that Leia was always supposed to recruit Kenobi and she got the Death Star plans by chance because her ship did not have time to leave for Tatooine before the Battle over Scarif started.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

reelo said:


> That is already sufficiently explained in Rogue One: in that movie Bail Organa specifically mentions that he's meaning to get Obi-Wan (implied) involved, and then says he's gonna send a female someone (Leia) to recruit him.
> Leia's ship, the Tantive IV is docked to Admiral Raddus's ship the Profundity when that one joins the fight over Scarif.
> 
> This makes it clear that Leia was always supposed to recruit Kenobi and she got the Death Star plans by chance because her ship did not have time to leave for Tatooine before the Battle over Scarif started.




That all is still not good enough for what seemed to many people that Leia knew Ben/Obi-wan personally. And that is now finally given detail in this show.


----------



## embee

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That all is still not good enough for what seemed to many people that Leia knew Ben/Obi-wan personally. And that is now finally given detail in this show.



But, until this show, did she?

Because her message in SW makes it seem like she doesn't know Obi-Wan. She calls him "General Kenobi" and says that he served her father during the Clone Wars. 

She doesn't say, "also, you rescued me that time when I was 10," and she doesn't call him Ben.


----------



## MarkB

embee said:


> But, until this show, did she?
> 
> Because her message in SW makes it seem like she doesn't know Obi-Wan. She calls him "General Kenobi" and says that he served her father during the Clone Wars.
> 
> She doesn't say, "also, you rescued me that time when I was 10," and she doesn't call him Ben.



No, but when Luke bursts into her detention cell and says "I'm here to rescue you, I'm with Ben Kenobi", she isn't puzzled by the name for an instant and just responds "Ben Kenobi, where is he?"


----------



## embee

MarkB said:


> No, but when Luke bursts into her detention cell and says "I'm here to rescue you, I'm with Ben Kenobi", she isn't puzzled by the name for an instant and just responds "Ben Kenobi, where is he?"



I'm still not convinced. 

She records the message as her ship is being taken. She's in a rush. So to convince him to help her, she says "you helped my father 20 years ago" and not "I'm the little girl whose life you saved."

I'm not buying it. 

Also, Obi Wan is a jerk to his eopie. When we last see his eopie, he's tied it up. He then jets off to another planet entirely. What happens to the eopie? Does someone take it? Is it stolen? Does it starve or die from exposure?

This is on top of us seeing that he leaves it tied up all day while he's at work at the Krayt dragon meat processing plant. 

Sarah McLaughlin would like a word with him about how he treats his space camel.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

embee said:


> Because her message in SW makes it seem like she doesn't know Obi-Wan. She calls him "General Kenobi" and says that he served her father during the Clone Wars.



She has been trained as a diplomat and politician from a very young age. Of course she knows how to word a formal letter.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Maxperson said:


> I've hiked there.  The Vasquez Rocks are a lot of fun.



It looks rather dry and hot. Come to Surrey, we have rain!


----------



## Ryujin

embee said:


> I'm still not convinced.
> 
> She records the message as her ship is being taken. She's in a rush. So to convince him to help her, she says "you helped my father 20 years ago" and not "I'm the little girl whose life you saved."
> 
> I'm not buying it.
> 
> Also, Obi Wan is a jerk to his eopie. When we last see his eopie, he's tied it up. He then jets off to another planet entirely. What happens to the eopie? Does someone take it? Is it stolen? Does it starve or die from exposure?
> 
> This is on top of us seeing that he leaves it tied up all day while he's at work at the Krayt dragon meat processing plant.
> 
> Sarah McLaughlin would like a word with him about how he treats his space camel.



Compared to blasting a gate that they could just walk around, I'm willing to hand-wave a little wording in a "HELP!" message


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> It looks rather dry and hot. Come to Surrey, we have rain!



I've heard rumors of that stuff.  It's supposed to fall from the sky, right?


----------



## Morrus

embee said:


> But, until this show, did she?
> 
> Because her message in SW makes it seem like she doesn't know Obi-Wan. She calls him "General Kenobi" and says that he served her father during the Clone Wars.
> 
> She doesn't say, "also, you rescued me that time when I was 10," and she doesn't call him Ben.



I don’t think she had time to record his entire resume.


----------



## pukunui

embee said:


> This is on top of us seeing that he leaves it tied up all day while he's at work at the Krayt dragon meat processing plant.



People keep saying that was a krayt dragon but it didn't really look like one to me. It looked more like a giant sand manta ray.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Ryujin said:


> Compared to blasting a gate that they could just walk around, I'm willing to hand-wave a little wording in a "HELP!" message



I find it interesting that the gate they could walk around came up in the same episode as the fire Vader or his stormtroopers could walk around. Both seem like problems that weren't inherent to the script or fundamental planning for the episode but when they tried to use the specific locations they did it just didn't work and they didn't bother to figure out a way to make it work. Seems like someone got careless and/or cheap.

The gate thing could also be an artifact of a version of the scene where he did try to take the moleman's bus-truck (which is what I expected when he disabled the gate), but I suspect when they blocked out the scene of them immediately facing a new set of stormtroopers it worked better if they were walking.

I think the reason why these things bother me is because they both have that feeling of something someone must have noticed during production but someone with the authority to try to change things to make the details make sense decided the audience would be too oblivious to notice. So does the gate really matter in the grand scheme of things? No. Did it substantially get in the way of my enjoyment of the episode? Not really. Do I feel slightly insulted as an audience member that they thought I wouldn't notice that it made no sense? Yes.

Both the gate and the fire seemed to be actual outdoor locations, whereas the live action Star Wars tv shows have relied heavily on digital sets. It may be the crew is out of their comfort zone and slipped up a bit.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Paul Farquhar said:


> She has been trained as a diplomat and politician from a very young age. Of course she knows how to word a formal letter.



And does not make a habit of including secret personal information in her formal letters.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

pukunui said:


> People keep saying that was a krayt dragon but it didn't really look like one to me. It looked more like a giant sand manta ray.




It was definitely not a Krayt Dragon. Apparently people just assume that all massive animals on Tatooine are Krayt Dragons.


----------



## pukunui

FitzTheRuke said:


> It was definitely not a Krayt Dragon. Apparently people just assume that all massive animals on Tatooine are Krayt Dragons.



What I really want to know is how Tatooine is able to support so many massive animals - and why the banthas don't overheat in their shaggy coats.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

pukunui said:


> What I really want to know is how Tatooine is able to support so many massive animals - and why the banthas don't overheat in their shaggy coats.




Good question. I assume that they are extremely hardy but are dying off as time passes. 

 bet if you looked at the backstory of this giant fish-thing, it's probably extremely rare and learned to live in the clouds when the water dried up. This was probably one of the last ones, and was 500 years old or something. Brings tragedy to the somewhat comical bit of Ben carving it up for sushi to feed to his worm-horse.

Banthas must have a low body temp and the shaggy coat is insulating, keeping them cool.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

FitzTheRuke said:


> It was definitely not a Krayt Dragon. Apparently people just assume that all massive animals on Tatooine are Krayt Dragons.



Well we haven't met that much Tatooine ultra-megafauna, so folk are going to guess based on what they know. But given the size of predator the Krayt Dragon is we would have to guess that there are probably some prey of comparable or larger size somewhere in the ecosystem, or at least there were at some point.


pukunui said:


> What I really want to know is how Tatooine is able to support so many massive animals - and why the banthas don't overheat in their shaggy coats.



Well, per the _Book of Boba Fett_, it was once a lush rainforrest and ocean planet, so Banthas are explained as creatures whom the people who became the Tuskans maintained as beasts of burden after the ecosystem could no longer naturally support them. Perhaps some Tuskan tribe we haven't met uses Dewbacks instead. A few stray Krayt Dragons survived preying on these domesticated megafauna. 

Bantha hair I can't explain.


----------



## Ryujin

Benjamin Olson said:


> Bantha hair I can't explain.



The nomadic people of the Sahara don't exactly run around in Speedos.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Ryujin said:


> The nomadic people of the Sahara don't exactly run around in Speedos.



Nor fur coats. But sure, maybe bantha hair (or what we are calling "hair") does not function as we would expect.


----------



## Ryujin

Benjamin Olson said:


> Nor fur coats. But sure, maybe bantha hair (or what we are calling "hair") does not function as we would expect.



It would be tough to naturally develop flowing cotton robes, however, something like insulating air-filled hairs might be a possibility.


----------



## pukunui

Did anyone else pick up on the Quinlan Vos namedrop? I wonder if he will appear in this show or if that's just meant to be an Easter egg.


----------



## Argyle King

It's not bad, but something about the show just isn't clicking for me. I can't put my finger on what exactly it is, but something feels off.


----------



## MarkB

embee said:


> I'm still not convinced.
> 
> She records the message as her ship is being taken. She's in a rush. So to convince him to help her, she says "you helped my father 20 years ago" and not "I'm the little girl whose life you saved."
> 
> I'm not buying it.



I don't think anyone's saying that this was a plot hole that's been waiting 45 years to be fixed. Simply that there is some connective tissue there which lets this show tie in reasonably neatly with the established continuity and join a few dots.


----------



## MarkB

Argyle King said:


> It's not bad, but something about the show just isn't clicking for me. I can't put my finger on what exactly it is, but something feels off.



The bit that keeps giving me a disconnect is the music. It's not bad or even particularly unfitting, but when they're evoking so many classic themes of the movies, it just feels weird for the actual theme music to be absent.


----------



## DeviousQuail

Argyle King said:


> It's not bad, but something about the show just isn't clicking for me. I can't put my finger on what exactly it is, but something feels off.



I'm in the same boat. There could be any number of reasons but for me this is something that goes back to the Book of Boba Fett. The physical movement of the characters on screen during action bits sometimes feels like everyone is moving at .8 speed. And it's not happening all the time so it's hard to say if that's true or if I'm just reaching here.

What's weird is that I don't think this was an issue in Mando. The action in that show felt urgent. Watching people chase after Leia, Reva parkouring over the city, Obi-Wan playing tag with Vader, they all just felt a little too slow. I know I previously put some of that on having to work with Leia's actress' height but the more I see the more I think this is just a show(s) wide thing.


----------



## Flamestrike

embee said:


> But, until this show, did she?
> 
> Because her message in SW makes it seem like she doesn't know Obi-Wan. She calls him "General Kenobi" and says that he served her father during the Clone Wars.
> 
> She doesn't say, "also, you rescued me that time when I was 10," and she doesn't call him Ben.




That could be explained by diplomacy though. 

Like, even if I was on first name basis with someone official, in official communiques with that person, I'd still use their title, rather than address them informally.

She wasnt walking around calling Admiral Ackbar 'Gail' either, and referred to Han as 'General Solo' in an official capacity (and as a Scoundrel/ Nerf-herder in private).


----------



## Flamestrike

pukunui said:


> People keep saying that was a krayt dragon but it didn't really look like one to me. It looked more like a giant sand manta ray.



Neebray/Legends


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Flamestrike said:


> Neebray/Legends




There you have it! And hey, they can fly _in space_ so yeah, they're pretty resilient.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Benjamin Olson said:


> Nor fur coats. But sure, maybe bantha hair (or what we are calling "hair") does not function as we would expect.



Fur coats only keep us warm because we generate our own body heat, and the fur traps it. If banthas generate no natural body heat and instead rely on the slow conductance of heat through their fur it makes sense.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

MarkB said:


> I don't think anyone's saying that this was a plot hole that's been waiting 45 years to be fixed. Simply that there is some connective tissue there which lets this show tie in reasonably neatly with the established continuity and join a few dots.



Exactly. I had really never thought about the Kenobi-Leia relationship, much less been bothered by anything about it, but I appreciate that the show is fleshing out something left ambiguous and underdeveloped in the original film.

I don't always love this sort of thing. I found it rather tedious and uninspired when Rogue One made their whole plot about the capturing of the Death Star plans. While I wasn't bothered by the need of the Solo movie to establish every part of his character and relationships (mostly because I just found that movie a fun bit of fluff) I know it drove other people up the wall.

But I went into this show assuming that it would just be Obi-Wan goes on some random adventure I don't really care about that's only worth watching because the actor is good in the role. By instead making it a mission that actually ties very directly into his overall character arc and possibly makes some odd bits from the first movie that never exactly made as much sense as they could make sense it feels a lot more substantive than what I came in expecting.


----------



## Rabulias

embee said:


> Also, Obi Wan is a jerk to his eopie. When we last see his eopie, he's tied it up. He then jets off to another planet entirely. What happens to the eopie? Does someone take it? Is it stolen? Does it starve or die from exposure?
> 
> This is on top of us seeing that he leaves it tied up all day while he's at work at the Krayt dragon meat processing plant.



At least he ties it up in a covered shelter so it is in the shade.


----------



## wicked cool

so the writers are now explaining that Kenobi didnt know (comicbook. com) that Anakin survived and thats why hes so shook when she tells him.

the whole problem i have is how does she know he doesnt know and that this will work on him. This is just poor writing

just rewatched kenobi meet the kid from rebels. This is good writing with good dialogue


----------



## delericho

FitzTheRuke said:


> There you have it! And hey, they can fly _in space_ so yeah, they're pretty resilient.



Spelljammer Confirmed!


----------



## MGibster

As far as Kenobi being weaker, we should remember that he's a broken man.  He even tells Organa, "I'm not the man I used to be."  The dude lost almost everything he cared about and has been eeking out a hard scrabble existence in hiding on the ass end of the galaxy for a decade.  He hasn't been communing with the Force or training, and when he ignited his saber while facing Vader it was probably for the first time in ten years.  Vader, on the other hand, is an absolute beast who has only gotten stronger and dominates through strength and brutality.  Did anyone notice that Vader wielded his saber with just one hand?  It reminded me of his fight with Luke in ESB, where Vader also wields his saber with one hand as he toys with his opponent, but switches to two hands when he gains some respect for Luke's abilities.  Notice that he gains no such respect for Obi-Wan's prowess in this fight.  Obi-Wan is weaker than Luke was in ESB.  

I don't mind if it looks like things have slowed down a bit.  Personally, I think a lot of fighting in movies looks silly these days.  Too cartoonish.  If Vader can't leap around like he used to, well, he's got three artificial limbs and needs help breathing.  And Obi-Wan has slowed down because he's a broken man.


----------



## MarkB

MGibster said:


> Vader, on the other hand, is an absolute beast who has only gotten stronger and dominates through strength and brutality.



And mastery of Force powers, including Force multitasking - snapping one person's neck while in the process of choking another.

Which does rather belie his "When last we met I was but a learner - now I am the master" line - so far, it doesn't look like he has much else to learn.


----------



## South by Southwest

MarkB said:


> Which does rather belie his "When last we met I was but a learner - now I am the master" line - so far, it doesn't look like he has much else to learn.



That was the biggest story hole I saw from this episode, too.


----------



## delericho

MarkB said:


> And mastery of Force powers, including Force multitasking - snapping one person's neck while in the process of choking another.
> 
> Which does rather belie his "When last we met I was but a learner - now I am the master" line - so far, it doesn't look like he has much else to learn.



It didn't feel to me like this was the last time we were going to see Vader vs Kenobi this series. My guess is that at some point someone is going to give Kenobi a slap and tell him to get it together - I don't know yet if that's going to be Qui-Gon, Yoda, or Leia.

(I haven't heard anything about Liam Neeson being involved, but it wouldn't be the first big unannounced cameo he's made this year.)


----------



## Ryujin

MGibster said:


> As far as Kenobi being weaker, we should remember that he's a broken man.  He even tells Organa, "I'm not the man I used to be."  The dude lost almost everything he cared about and has been eeking out a hard scrabble existence in hiding on the ass end of the galaxy for a decade.  He hasn't been communing with the Force or training, and when he ignited his saber while facing Vader it was probably for the first time in ten years.  Vader, on the other hand, is an absolute beast who has only gotten stronger and dominates through strength and brutality.  Did anyone notice that Vader wielded his saber with just one hand?  It reminded me of his fight with Luke in ESB, where Vader also wields his saber with one hand as he toys with his opponent, but switches to two hands when he gains some respect for Luke's abilities.  Notice that he gains no such respect for Obi-Wan's prowess in this fight.  Obi-Wan is weaker than Luke was in ESB.
> 
> I don't mind if it looks like things have slowed down a bit.  Personally, I think a lot of fighting in movies looks silly these days.  Too cartoonish.  If Vader can't leap around like he used to, well, he's got three artificial limbs and needs help breathing.  And Obi-Wan has slowed down because he's a broken man.



Yes, we really have to remember how much mastery of The Force seems to be in the belief that you can control it. "Do or do not. There is no try." He's broken to the point that he no longer believes in himself, or his abilities.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Mallus

You know, seeing Vader did very little for me.

However, seeing Obi-Wan in the back of a space pickup looking at Leia while his eyes said, "I would like to have been your mom. It... could have been good. She was great." was excellent.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Vader *"When last we met, I was but a learner. Now I am the master."*

Obi-Wan *"What about that fight we had nine years ago? You were pretty damn impressive then."*

Vader *"Oh yeah, I nearly forgot about that one. You were pathetic then."*

Obi-Wan *"Hey, at least you stood around while I got away. Thanks, mate."*

Vader *"Yeah, well, there was fire. I'm a little nervous around fire since you... burned my limbs off and left me for dead."*

Obi-Wan *"You did that to yourself. I warned you, I had the high ground!"*

Vader *"... Now you will die, Old Man!*

Obi-Wan *"Strike me down, Darth, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!"*


----------



## Nikosandros

FitzTheRuke said:


> Vader *"When last we met, I was but a learner. Now I am the master."*
> 
> Obi-Wan *"What about that fight we had nine years ago? You were pretty damn impressive then."*
> 
> Vader *"Oh yeah, I nearly forgot about that one. You were pathetic then."*
> 
> Obi-Wan *"Hey, at least you stood around while I got away. Thanks, mate."*
> 
> Vader *"Yeah, well, there was fire. I'm a little nervous around fire since you... burned my limbs off and left me for dead."*
> 
> Obi-Wan *"You did that to yourself. I warned you, I had the high ground!"*
> 
> Vader *"... Now you will die, Old Man!*
> 
> Obi-Wan *"Strike me down, Darth, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!"*



Exactly. That''s how the original script was. Lucas, much like the Emperor, had foreseen everything, including the series that Disney would produce long after he sold Star Wars to them. But those fools at 20th Century Fox woudn't believe him and they changed the scene. Now, as a punishment, they've also been bought by Disney... or something like that.


----------



## pukunui

delericho said:


> (I haven't heard anything about Liam Neeson being involved, but it wouldn't be the first big unannounced cameo he's made this year.)



I expect we’ll get something, even if it’s just Qui-Gonn’s voice. It’s clear Obi-Wan hasn’t made that connection yet, and he needs to do so in order to be able to become a Force ghost in Ep 4, as per Yoda’s “I have training for you” bit at the end of Ep 3.

Anakin’s real power as the special Chosen One is his ability to become a Force ghost without having to learn how first.


----------



## Imaculata

So, I finally started watching this show. So far, I like it. The mood is dark, I like the look of the show, and Ewan Mc Gregor is great as beaten down old Obi Wan. And most importantly, there is a plot with a middle and an end.

Young Leia is great, but the writers shouldn't give her very complicated dialog. It seems very odd coming out of a 10 year old's mouth. Acting wise, I'm a little bit more forgiving towards child actors.

Boy, those kidnappers in episode 1 were really trying hard not to catch up with Leia!

Reva is very weak in the first episode, but she gets a little better with episode 2 and 3. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes actors need time to get comfortable with their character. Plus, that outfit in a desert can't be comfy.

Some cyberpunk-esque stuff in episode 2, which I enjoyed. The jedi fraud was fun. The rooftop shoot out had some weird editing, but I'll give it a pass. Another slow chase where Leia slowly gets away though. I do enjoy how they depict Obi Wan's trauma.

The whole checkpoint scene in episode 3 was silly. The stormtroopers really had no idea what the jedi they're looking for looks like, despite him wearing the most obvious jedi outfit imaginable? Weren't they informed he had a young girl with him too? And shooting the laser barricade was a bit of a set design blunder.

But there is also a lot to like. I enjoy the practical suit creatures and real sets. James Earl Jones is back, and they did a good job making Vader menacing. His fight with Obi Wan was fine imo. I also liked how he dragged him through the fire.

Why did Vader not immediately pursue Obi Wan? The way I interpreted it, it looked like he was having an introspective moment. Besides, it's not like Vader is ever in a hurry.

I geeked out when I saw the Imperial Shuttle in the background, and the probe droids, not gonna lie.

I hope we see some more Fallen Order crossover stuff. I really feel like Fallen Order got Star Wars right, and so far this show is echoing a similar vibe. Obi Wan will obviously get back in touch with the Force slowly over the course of the show and I'm here for it.

Lets hope they don't ruin it in the next couple of episodes.


----------



## Maxperson




----------



## MGibster

I don't think anyone's mentioned it, but props to Uncle Owen for not buckling when threatened by Reva.


----------



## Flamestrike

wicked cool said:


> so the writers are now explaining that Kenobi didnt know (comicbook. com) that Anakin survived and thats why hes so shook when she tells him.
> 
> the whole problem i have is how does she know he doesnt know and that this will work on him. This is just poor writing




She doesnt know he's unaware Anakin survived. She's literally surprised Obi Wan was unaware. She says as much.

You missed that?


----------



## Flamestrike

FitzTheRuke said:


> Vader *"When last we met, I was but a learner. Now I am the master."*




Obi Wan is going to own Vader later on in the series, likely using some Qui Gonn technique, and put Vader in his place with 'One last lesson'.

I'd wager my starship on it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Flamestrike said:


> Obi Wan is going to own Vader later on in the series, likely using some Qui Gonn technique, and put Vader in his place with 'One last lesson'.
> 
> I'd wager my starship on it.



Exactly. The whole point of the series is it's a redemption arc for Kenobi.

At the beginning he has lost his faith. His faith in himself, his faith in other people, his faith that the Force can make things better.

By the end he will have his faith restored, enabling him to become the confident powerful man we meet in ANH (or Rebels). And this will be symbolised by him giving Darth one last lesson.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

I would just like to point out that Kenobi believing his mission to destroy Vader had succeeded makes his decision to send Luke to live with his family make a lot more sense.

The discovery that Vader is alive is a double failure for Kenobi, since it makes it clear that Luke is in much more danger, should Vader ever learn of his existence.


----------



## Aeson

Should Vader be retired if James Earl Jones can no longer do the voice? He sounded better in this than in Rogue One. I hope he had a cold or something that day.

I thought about it; I kinda want to see Neil Nunes  take over.


----------



## Flamestrike

It's getting review bombed on Rotten Tomatoes at the moment.

Main critiques:

1) They ruined Obi-wan 'like they ruined Luke' by making him a sad, weak, disillusioned old guy who cant do anything anymore, and is 'not the story I had in my head-canon', and

2) There is a black woman in the show, so that's just more Disney 'forcing a political agenda on us'.

So the usual suspects.

We're a victim of our own Fandom with Star-Wars, and with that fandom being overwhelmingly male nerds lacking EQ, it spawns a real toxic and vocal element being very visible at times.


----------



## Flamestrike

Aeson said:


> Should Vader be retired if James Earl Jones can no longer do the voice? He sounded better in this than in Rogue One. I hope he had a cold or something that day.




It wasnt JEJ.

They used an AI program, which reconstructed JEJ's voice from audio data from the movies (and elsewhere), and blended it with hints of Haydens voice (which you can just make out if you listen close enough).

That's why it sounded so damn awesome.

He's credited for the same reason Hamill was credited in Boba Fett/ Mando (they used the same program to fake Hamills voice as well in those).

It's their voice... just recreated with a computer.


----------



## Marc Radle

Flamestrike said:


> It wasnt JEJ.
> 
> They used an AI program, which reconstructed JEJ's voice from audio data from the movies (and elsewhere), and blended it with hints of Haydens voice (which you can just make out if you listen close enough).
> 
> That's why it sounded so damn awesome.
> 
> He's credited for the same reason Hamill was credited in Boba Fett/ Mando (they used the same program to fake Hamills voice as well in those).
> 
> It's their voice... just recreated with a computer.




Are you sure about that?

I’ve just read articles about this from CNN, Deadline, Daily Mail, TV Line, and a number of others, and they all confirm the James Earl Jones did the voice and recorded all the dialog.  There was no mention of it being created using AI or being combined with Hayden’s voice.

Some of these did say that Respeecher — the same company that digitally modified the dialog Mark Hamil had recorded to sound more like a thirtysomething Luke Skywalker’s voice for _The Mandalorian_ and _Boba Fett_ — provided “Voice Conversion Services” for this episode.


----------



## Yora

FitzTheRuke said:


> Vader *"When last we met, I was but a learner. Now I am the master."*
> 
> Obi-Wan *"What about that fight we had nine years ago? You were pretty damn impressive then."*
> 
> Vader *"Oh yeah, I nearly forgot about that one. You were pathetic then."*
> 
> Obi-Wan *"Hey, at least you stood around while I got away. Thanks, mate."*
> 
> Vader *"Yeah, well, there was fire. I'm a little nervous around fire since you... burned my limbs off and left me for dead."*
> 
> Obi-Wan *"You did that to yourself. I warned you, I had the high ground!"*
> 
> Vader *"... Now you will die, Old Man!*
> 
> Obi-Wan *"Strike me down, Darth, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!"*



Several years ago I've come to the conclusion that I hate prequels as a concept in general. They do poorly at telling new stories, because everyone already knows how it all will turn out eventually, and so they end up being mostly references to stuff that is alredy known while simultaneously trying to upstage them.

Or as people in the business call it: Fan Service.

I am old enough to remember the glut of Star Wars products that was being cranked out in the 90s. But I feel that since then, storytelling has been replaced almost entirely by blatant fan service.


----------



## MGibster

Flamestrike said:


> Obi Wan is going to own Vader later on in the series, likely using some Qui Gonn technique, and put Vader in his place with 'One last lesson'.



Yeah.  Vader's got to lose this fight so the rest of the series can happen.  



Paul Farquhar said:


> The discovery that Vader is alive is a double failure for Kenobi, since it makes it clear that Luke is in much more danger, should Vader ever learn of his existence.



"Now his failure is complete."  -- Darth Vader



Aeson said:


> Should Vader be retired if James Earl Jones can no longer do the voice? He sounded better in this than in Rogue One. I hope he had a cold or something that day.



I don't have any objections to a different voice actor taking over.  At some point, they'll have to retire Vader simply because they're going to run out of story.  (And I just read that it wasn't Jones which makes me a little sad.)  



Flamestrike said:


> 1) They ruined Obi-wan 'like they ruined Luke' by making him a sad, weak, disillusioned old guy who cant do anything anymore, and is 'not the story I had in my head-canon', and



Which is a bad take on their part.  We witnessed Obi-Wan lose almost everything and we see the kind of live he's been living for the better part of a decade.  His character progression make sense and the story as a whole is new and interesting.  I think they made a lot of mistakes with the new trilogy, but personally I would have liked to have seen Luke an an elder statesman type role like Yoda and Ben from the original trilogy.  



Flamestrike said:


> 2) There is a black woman in the show, so that's just more Disney 'forcing a political agenda on us'.



I don't quite get this either.  But haters gonna hate.  



Yora said:


> I am old enough to remember the glut of Star Wars products that was being cranked out in the 90s. But I feel that since then, storytelling has been replaced almost entirely by blatant fan service.



I rememeber the glut as well.  The stuff being produced today is heads and shoulders above what we got in the 1990s.


----------



## Yora

It was definitely simpler. And there was a lot of trash.

But I feel that the better works were really trying to recapture the essence of the original movies. I haven't seen any such thing since the last Jedi Knight game. We are now living in a world where the Clone Wars seem to be the central founding myth, not the Rebellion. Not necessarily narratively, but stylistically.


----------



## wicked cool

Flamestrike said:


> She doesnt know he's unaware Anakin survived. She's literally surprised Obi Wan was unaware. She says as much.
> 
> You missed that?



Her tone implies that she wants it to hurt. The way she says anakin also doesn’t fit how a subordinate would talk about their boss. For example listen to teams talk about their coaches. They always say coach first. Same goes with military/police. It’s just crap

Now she’s going after fans . It’s almost like they knew what they were doing. Feels like a wwe heel moment . The bad guy will trash the fans to get them to throw things at the ring. I think this is some of that based on Moses reactions


----------



## Hriston

Flamestrike said:


> Obi Wan is going to own Vader later on in the series, likely using some Qui Gonn technique, and put Vader in his place with 'One last lesson'.
> 
> I'd wager my starship on it.



Right, it'll be like how Luke owned Kylo in Last Jedi.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Yora said:


> Several years ago I've come to the conclusion that I hate prequels as a concept in general.




I loathe prequels and fan service. What I'd always prefer is a new story set in the same universe. I'd much, much rather they create equivalents (for example, like they did with STNG where they were very aware that Data was going to be their Spock, in that he was the character that would struggle with what it is to be human) than recast the same characters over and over.

That said, I'm very much enjoying Obi-Wan (mostly in spite-of) its fan-service. (I say mostly because I can't help myself to get excited when I see Darth Vader and I loved the little girl's Leiah-ness, if I'm honest.)

I also absolutely LOVE Star Trek Strange New Worlds. But I would probably love it more if it was set after Next Gen and everyone had new names, even if they were otherwise almost exactly the same.

Solo would have been a better Star Wars movie if they'd made Han and Lando completely new loveable lowlifes, the Falcon a different hunk of junk and Chewie a different silent alien sidekick.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

wicked cool said:


> Now she’s going after fans . It’s almost like they knew what they were doing. Feels like a wwe heel moment . The bad guy will trash the fans to get them to throw things at the ring. I think this is some of that based on Moses reactions



Are you... trying to paint Moses as the aggressor against the fans? That's... an odd take.


----------



## South by Southwest

Flamestrike said:


> Obi Wan is going to own Vader later on in the series, likely using some Qui Gonn technique, and put Vader in his place with 'One last lesson'.
> 
> *I'd wager my starship on it.*



Please tell me we're not talking about just some local bulk cruiser, here.


----------



## Stalker0

Flamestrike said:


> 1) They ruined Obi-wan 'like they ruined Luke' by making him a sad, weak, disillusioned old guy who cant do anything anymore, and is 'not the story I had in my head-canon', and



I see this take on Obi-Wan very different from what they did with Luke:


Obi-Wan never lost faith in the Jedi as a concept, he lost faith in himself. Luke just threw away all of the teachings and cannon, saying "the jedi SHOULD end" whereas that has been forced on Obi-Wan.
We saw Obi-Wans journey. We saw him lose everything, saw him have to fight his former Padawan and friend. Conversely we get just a few scenes to describe Luke's fall into bitterness.
There is no blue milk.
Also plot-wise Luke's behavior never made sense. This is the same guy that apparantely made a map so people can find him (episode VII) but then when they do he's like "you never should have come looking for me" (episode VIII).


----------



## Imaculata

James Earl Jones definitely delivered a much better performance in this show, than he did in Rogue One. I don't know why it was so bad in Rogue One. Maybe he had a cold, or it was a hasty pickup? Who knows. But this sounded like original Vader. I paid extra attention to it, to see if it was someone new doing the voice. But it absolutely sounded like the legend himself.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Imaculata said:


> James Earl Jones definitely delivered a much better performance in this show, than he did in Rogue One. I don't know why it was so bad in Rogue One. Maybe he had a cold, or it was a hasty pickup? Who knows. But this sounded like original Vader. I paid extra attention to it, to see if it was someone new doing the voice. But it absolutely sounded like the legend himself.



It's been mentioned before - it's a digital recreation.


----------



## Imaculata

FitzTheRuke said:


> It's been mentioned before - it's a digital recreation.



If it is, then they did a really good job.


----------



## Hriston

Stalker0 said:


> There is no blue milk.



The sand-worm meat is the blue milk.


----------



## Tonguez

Imaculata said:


> If it is, then they did a really good job.



if the quality of digital voices has advanced to the point of being indistinguishable from the real voice then thats amazing - I had an emotional response to hearing it!


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

I found some of the editing or the way some scenes were depicted oddly looking. Like the chase for Leia - there was maybe one or two believable moves and the rest just weren't. I think they could have done that better, maybe with having more guards interfere or something. 

The Obi-Wan/Vader fight suffered from teleporting characters. But the teleporter doesn't seem to work near fire. 

But I like Leia. They gave her sass, but also some emotional moments. Reva seems rather unpopular with people, but I actually liked her. The biggest problem is that she makes the other Inquisitors, because she clearly gets results where they don't. That could be written better, I think. But I actually want to know why she is so eager to catch Obi-Wan - and if she has any other agenda but becoming Grand Inquisitor.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

FitzTheRuke said:


> It's been mentioned before - it's a digital recreation.




The voices are not digital recreations. The actors record new lines of dialogue and then they use technology to "de-age" the voices to sound like they did 40-45 years ago. I think it is shown being used in some of the behind-the-scenes stuff for Book of Boba Fett when talking about Mark Hamill.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The voices are not digital recreations. The actors record new lines of dialogue and then they use technology to "de-age" the voices to sound like they did 40-45 years ago. I think it is shown being used in some of the behind-the-scenes stuff for Book of Boba Fett when talking about Mark Hamill.




Sure. They are digital recreations of the classic voice. I don't know all the ins-and-outs of how they did it, but AFAIK James Earl Jones didn't record new lines here. Though Hayden Christiansen did.


----------



## Marc Radle

As I mentioned earlier, I’ve seen a bunch of articles about this from CNN, Deadline, Daily Mail, TV Line, and a number of others, and they all confirm the James Earl Jones did the voice and recorded all the dialog. There was no mention of it being created using AI or being combined with Hayden’s voice.

Some of these did say that Respeecher — the same company that digitally modified the dialog Mark Hamil had recorded to sound more like a thirtysomething Luke Skywalker’s voice for _The Mandalorian_ and _Boba Fett_ — provided “Voice Conversion Services” for this episode.


----------



## South by Southwest

Marc Radle said:


> As I mentioned earlier, I’ve seen a bunch of articles about this from CNN, Deadline, Daily Mail, TV Line, and a number of others, and they all confirm the James Earl Jones did the voice and recorded all the dialog. There was no mention of it being created using AI or being combined with Hayden’s voice.
> 
> Some of these did say that Respeecher — the same company that digitally modified the dialog Mark Hamil had recorded to sound more like a thirtysomething Luke Skywalker’s voice for _The Mandalorian_ and _Boba Fett_ — provided “Voice Conversion Services” for this episode.



So they de-aged Jones' voice after he delivered the lines? I suppose that'd make sense, though from listening to recent interviews I'd say his voice has aged really well.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Marc Radle said:


> As I mentioned earlier, I’ve seen a bunch of articles about this from CNN, Deadline, Daily Mail, TV Line, and a number of others, and they all confirm the James Earl Jones did the voice and recorded all the dialog. There was no mention of it being created using AI or being combined with Hayden’s voice.
> 
> Some of these did say that Respeecher — the same company that digitally modified the dialog Mark Hamil had recorded to sound more like a thirtysomething Luke Skywalker’s voice for _The Mandalorian_ and _Boba Fett_ — provided “Voice Conversion Services” for this episode.




Hmm. Okay. That's good to know. I love James Earl Jones, he's the best.


----------



## BrokenTwin

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Reva seems rather unpopular with people, but I actually liked her. The biggest problem is that she makes the other Inquisitors, because she clearly gets results where they don't. That could be written better, I think. But I actually want to know why she is so eager to catch Obi-Wan - and if she has any other agenda but becoming Grand Inquisitor.



I'm mostly curious about Reva not having the yellow sith eyes, honestly. To me that seems be a hint that she's not fallen as far as the others have, and might end the series with a redemption(-equals-death, perhaps) arc.
Or lazy costume design, but the costuming seems pretty good (unlike some of the set designs). I'd like to see Reva actually set up some plot instead of just last-minute reveals that she's behind things, though.

Off-screen teleportation feels like it's always been a thing in this universe, but it's feeling especially notable in this series for some reason. Probably just because having Reva:
1. Find the tunnels well after they had started running down them.
2. Figure out which exit they were going for.
3. Beat them there despite the massive head start.
4. Not run into the lady with Leia, despite them presumably having to have gone past each other at some point.
5. Kill the guy that was supposed to meet them with enough time to hide the body and avoid alerting Leia.
Immediately made me go Emperor's New Groove.
"No! How did you get here before us?!?"
"A... how did we, Kronk?"
"Well, ya got me. By all accounts it doesn't make any sense."


----------



## MarkB

BrokenTwin said:


> I'm mostly curious about Reva not having the yellow sith eyes, honestly. To me that seems be a hint that she's not fallen as far as the others have, and might end the series with a redemption(-equals-death, perhaps) arc.



Those seem to come and go. Anakin gets them after he kills the Separatist leaders on Mustafar, but when Padme and Obi-wan meet him there shortly afterwards they're mostly back to normal.


BrokenTwin said:


> 5. Kill the guy that was supposed to meet them with enough time to hide the body and avoid alerting Leia.



She didn't hide the body. He's lying on the floor right behind her when she greets Leia.


----------



## Tonguez




----------



## Maxperson

MarkB said:


> Those seem to come and go. Anakin gets them after he kills the Separatist leaders on Mustafar, but when Padme and Obi-wan meet him there shortly afterwards they're mostly back to normal.
> 
> She didn't hide the body. He's lying on the floor right behind her when she greets Leia.



If they were always there, none of this would have happened.  The Jedi would have seen Senator Palpatine's Sith eyes and just killed him before he ever had a chance to be a governmental threat.


----------



## BrokenTwin

Maxperson said:


> If they were always there, none of this would have happened.  The Jedi would have seen Senator Palpatine's Sith eyes and just killed him before he ever had a chance to be a governmental threat.



I... never realized that, but you're totally right. Huh. Well that just makes it more confusing.

As to the body, it was enough out of site that Leia apparently didn't notice it, which is what I was mostly referring to.


----------



## pukunui

BrokenTwin said:


> As to the body, it was enough out of site that Leia apparently didn't notice it, which is what I was mostly referring to.



She does see it. The very last scene is of her looking at the body, then looking at Reva, then backing into the tunnel to try and run away.


----------



## Maxperson

BrokenTwin said:


> I... never realized that, but you're totally right. Huh. Well that just makes it more confusing.
> 
> As to the body, it was enough out of site that Leia apparently didn't notice it, which is what I was mostly referring to.



Maybe it happens while the Sith are utilizing Sith techniques to harness anger and fear or something.


----------



## pukunui

Maxperson said:


> Maybe it happens while the Sith are utilizing Sith techniques to harness anger and fear or something.



Pretty much. 









						Why do the Sith have yellow eyes?
					

Outside of their red lightsabers, nothing is more intimidating than a Sith's yellow eyes. Why do all Sith seem to have yellow eyes?




					wegotthiscovered.com


----------



## Zardnaar

MGibster said:


> Yeah.  Vader's got to lose this fight so the rest of the series can happen.
> 
> 
> "Now his failure is complete."  -- Darth Vader
> 
> 
> I don't have any objections to a different voice actor taking over.  At some point, they'll have to retire Vader simply because they're going to run out of story.  (And I just read that it wasn't Jones which makes me a little sad.)
> 
> 
> Which is a bad take on their part.  We witnessed Obi-Wan lose almost everything and we see the kind of live he's been living for the better part of a decade.  His character progression make sense and the story as a whole is new and interesting.  I think they made a lot of mistakes with the new trilogy, but personally I would have liked to have seen Luke an an elder statesman type role like Yoda and Ben from the original trilogy.
> 
> 
> I don't quite get this either.  But haters gonna hate.
> 
> 
> I rememeber the glut as well.  The stuff being produced today is heads and shoulders above what we got in the 1990s.




 It's more consistent but ,90's stuff has higher highs and lower lows. More original though. 

 Best 90's stuff murders the Disney stuff imho eg Thawn trilogy/Duology, Han Solo trilogy, X-Wing books. 

 Disney hasn't vomited up a Crystal Star or Children of the Jedi though.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Hriston said:


> The sand-worm meat is the blue milk.



It's not sandworm meat, it's space-manta meat.


----------



## Imaculata

I feel like as long as this show keeps doing its own thing, it will remain good. I really hope they don't ruin it with blatant fan service in the next couple of episodes.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Imaculata said:


> I feel like as long as this show keeps doing its own thing, it will remain good. I really hope they don't ruin it with blatant fan service in the next couple of episodes.




Bringing Vader in is already massive fan service, plus potentially messing up/nullifying some dialogue from the first movie. So far it has not been a problem.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Bringing Vader in is already massive fan service, plus potentially messing up/nullifying some dialogue from the first movie. So far it has not been a problem.



I think the writers are paying very careful attention to the dialogue from the first movie, and if anything, are patching holes. How come Leia knows Vader so well?


----------



## Flamestrike

wicked cool said:


> Her tone implies that she wants it to hurt. The way she says anakin also doesn’t fit how a subordinate would talk about their boss. For example listen to teams talk about their coaches. They always say coach first. Same goes with military/police. It’s just crap
> 
> *Now she’s going after fans .* It’s almost like they knew what they were doing. Feels like a wwe heel moment . The bad guy will trash the fans to get them to throw things at the ring. I think this is some of that based on Moses reactions




Dude, have you _seen _the racist naughty word getting posted about her online by those 'fans'?


----------



## Imaculata

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Bringing Vader in is already massive fan service, plus potentially messing up/nullifying some dialogue from the first movie. So far it has not been a problem.



Anakin is directly tied to Obi Wan's plot, so while any appearance of Vader is sure to please fans, his inclusion is not what I would call fan service.


----------



## John R Davis

I'm sure in TV ep6 Ben will become Obi Wan once more and defeat Vader in a light sabre battle


----------



## BrokenTwin

pukunui said:


> She does see it. The very last scene is of her looking at the body, then looking at Reva, then backing into the tunnel to try and run away.



I rewatched the scene, and you're right! Not sure how i missed that. I still stand by the blatant offscreen teleportation jarring me completely out of the moment though.


----------



## Tonguez

Imaculata said:


> Anakin is directly tied to Obi Wan's plot, so while any appearance of Vader is sure to please fans, his inclusion is not what I would call fan service.



there was absolutely no expectation that Obiwan would encounter Vader until his death in the movie, so while it might make sense for Vader to be seen in his fortress, actually having an entire episode where Vader comes out of his fortress to have a lightsabre fight with Obi-wan was absolutely fan service


----------



## Imaculata

You didn't think Anakin would come after Obi Wan in an Obi Wan show?

...I don't know what to tell you.

But when I think of fan service, I think of something that was inserted into a show ONLY to please the fans on a superficial level, and not to serve the plot. Kinda like how the You-will-be-dead-guy showed up in Rogue One for no good reason.

This show follows up directly on the events of Revenge of the Sith, so of course Vader is going to be in it.


----------



## wicked cool

Flamestrike said:


> Dude, have you _seen _the racist naughty word getting posted about her online by those 'fans'?



I haven’t. I did hear she was fully engaged in the fight right from the begining 

That is awful as I assume its bad. I don’t blame her for the casting or the script


----------



## Zardnaar

If something is bad most if the time it's the writing. Basically don't blame the actor she's doing alright imho.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

So, Obi-wan not knowing Anakin survived and became Vader is something that has been canon and was not just made up for this show:









						'Obi-Wan Kenobi' Writer Explains Why the Jedi Master Didn't Know Anakin Was Alive
					

The Force is strong with the Star Wars canon!




					collider.com


----------



## bloodtide

S1E1

So....five kids got away from Order 66...ok, well, it's possible.

So...are Inquisitors Sith? 

So....Ben K gets a job as a bottom of the sand pile worker drone?  Why?  What does he really need money for?  He is a hermit that lives in a cave!  Maybe he does it for a cover....but, you know, hermit guy works too.

Ben K seems a bit odd not caring about the jedi guy....is not helping other jedi part of the Code?

Jedi Joe sure seems to find Ben K easy enough.....

Um....stealing is against the Jedi code too...right?

And....Ben K seems way wrong that he does not respect Owens wishes...

And like a minute later Owen shows he is 100% times better then Ben, when he does not give Ben up....

So...Ben is about the WORST at hiding.  And the Empire could not find him in TEN YEARS?!?

Also....umm...Darth Anikin KNOWS all about the Laars farm.  So in TEN YEARS he never sent even ONE person to check it out?  

Jedi and Sith can feel and detect each other, right?  So....why does that not happen?

Do the Inquisitors, NOT have Sith mind powers?  Or are they too low level or something?  You'd think having the Force powers of "mind reading", "feelings" "detecting thoughts" and such would be REQUIRED for an Inquisitor....

Too bad Leia did not get a Jedi Protector like Luke.....

So Luke "must be trained"....but, um, WHAT ABOUT LEIA?!?  Is she not just as likely to be the "Child of the Chosen One"?

And Ben K does not even try to hide his lightsaber?  Does not EVERYONE know that is a Jedi weapon?

And...and.....this show has a Star Wars Lore Advisor.....who is PAID to get everything above right!  But if they did that, there would be no text above!

S1E2

A Jedi Con??  Does not seem so wise to pretend to be part of the MOST HUNTED KILL ON SIGHT GROUP IN THE GALAXY!

Guess Ben found Leia by luck?

So the bad guys put out an APB on Ben.....wonder why no one thought to try that on Tattionne?

Leia sure acts very DUMB....does she not understand she was kidnapped and is in a very dangerous place?  

Is that lizard guy on the rooftop a Gorn from Star Trek?

So sure Leia is a clueless little girl....but she "suddenly" thinks Ben is a jedi because he sort of catches her and drops her on the ground.  Does she not know sith can make people float?

But Leia acts like she does not know about the Sith?  But....um...would this NOT be common knowledge.....like taught to school children.  Like DARTH VADER is a public figure, right?  EVERYONE knows who he is, right?  Sure they don't know all the details...but "Dark Lord of the Sith that slaughtered all the Jedi" is commonly known, right?

So...suddenly Reva HAS Force mind powers!?!  Good thing she forgot to use them on Tattoine.

I though the empire locked down the planet...no one in or out......yea the transport just zooms away?

S1E3

Of course, the problem with a story like this is Vader just sits around as his castle and tells Third Minion Sister to find Ben as it is so important.  Not important enough to do himself....but very important.

Ban K can fix driods now?  Sure, it's just a Palyskool Driod, but still.....

Hummm....they make an odd point.....is not Senator Bel Leia's stepdad...evil as he is part of the Evil Empire?  Or is he like part of the good minority?  

So Leia acted like an idiot last episode......but now she is a grant master spy in like seconds

So that is a lightsaber gate?

And was that a FEMALE Stromtrooper that came out of the second transport?

And a FEMALE Officer too?  Oh...but she is a spy!

So Ben can feel Darth Vader.....but Vader can't feel Ben?


So why does Vader move his robot arms to do Force powers?  In a living Sith they would go through the body, right?  But the Force does not flow through technology, right?

Is there some reason Ben's lightsaber glows so much?

So.....Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader have an EPIC Legendary duel.......but it's so sad.  But sure Ben is not the guy he used to be....but then should not Vader have won a lot easier?

Odd all that burning sand hardly seems to hurt Ben at all....not even burn his hair

And then Vader is like "oh well, he is gone?"


----------



## MGibster

bloodtide said:


> So...are Inquisitors Sith?



No?  I think it's established in the prequels that there are only two Sith at any given time, an apprentice and a master.  



bloodtide said:


> So....Ben K gets a job as a bottom of the sand pile worker drone? Why? What does he really need money for? He is a hermit that lives in a cave! Maybe he does it for a cover....but, you know, hermit guy works too.



Dude still needs food & supplies.  Even crazy people living on remote mountain tops in our world come out to trade once in a while.



bloodtide said:


> Ben K seems a bit odd not caring about the jedi guy....is not helping other jedi part of the Code?



Kenobi isn't the man he once was, he's a scared broken man now.  



bloodtide said:


> Um....stealing is against the Jedi code too...right?



Is it?  Qui Gon tried to use the Force to get Watto to accept Republic credits.  You try paying me with Canadian currency and I'm going to consider that pretty close to stealing.  Anyway, Kenobi isn't exactly living according to the Jedi code these days.   And he's stealing some food from his jerk employers who steal employee wages.  



bloodtide said:


> Jedi Joe sure seems to find Ben K easy enough.....



We don't know how easy it was for Jedi Joe to find Kenobi.  



bloodtide said:


> Jedi and Sith can feel and detect each other, right? So....why does that not happen?



Not all the time apparently.  Nobody in the prequels detected Palpatine, and the Inquisitors didn't detect Kenobi or the Jedi they were looking for.  Kenobi sure felt Vader's presence though.  



bloodtide said:


> Ban K can fix driods now? Sure, it's just a Palyskool Driod, but still.....



Why not?  He's been living on Tatooine for the better part of a decade, he's set up a security system at his cave, and he's got a working moisture vaporator.  



bloodtide said:


> So Ben can feel Darth Vader.....but Vader can't feel Ben?



Ben is weak, and Vader is a powerful malevolent presence.  



bloodtide said:


> So.....Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader have an EPIC Legendary duel.......but it's so sad. But sure Ben is not the guy he used to be....but then should not Vader have won a lot easier?



Vader was in control of that fight from the beginning until the very end when Kenobi was rescued.  And he didn't even break a sweat, Vader put in more effort to defeat Luke in ESB.


----------



## MGibster

Zardnaar said:


> If something is bad most if the time it's the writing. Basically don't blame the actor she's doing alright imho.



Bingo.  I strongly dislike the latest trilogy, but my problem has nothing to do with the actors, all of whom did an excellent job.


----------



## Zardnaar

MGibster said:


> Bingo.  I strongly dislike the latest trilogy, but my problem has nothing to do with the actors, all of whom did an excellent job.




 Acting wasn't a major problem in the prequels, seques and BoBF.


----------



## Flamestrike

wicked cool said:


> I haven’t. I did hear she was fully engaged in the fight right from the begining
> 
> That is awful as I assume its bad. I don’t blame her for the casting or the script




The usual assholes are review bombing the show, with a notable number of them discussing 'Woke agendas' and 'race based casting' and Disney 'cucking' Star wars etc.

Literally hundreds of 'fans' have posted racist crap on her social medial accounts (including using the 'n' word):

Star Wars Speaks Out Against Racist Comments Directed At Obi-Wan's Moses Ingram - IGN

These are the same toxic Nazi edge lord assholes who lurk on 4chan, doxxed women over Gamergate, bombed The Last Of Us 2 (over it's inclusion of a Jewish character, lesbian storyline, and transgender character) and got stuck into Kelly Tran and John Bogeya for race stuff as well in Ep 8.

If you're choosing a side in that debate, it's on on the side of Moses Ingram.


----------



## Flamestrike

Zardnaar said:


> Acting wasn't a major problem in the *prequels*, seques and BoBF.




The acting (and dialogue) in the prequels was awful, not that you can blame the actors (many of whom are fantastic actors).

Standing in front of a blue screen for weeks on end, while Lucas asks you to 'Do it again, only this time angry' is less than ideal to get into character, or to really portray a role.

Ewan McGregor hasnt suddenly become a better actor over the past 15 years. He's just been given a better environment to work his craft.


----------



## Hastati

I’ve been enjoying the show. My only complaint is that there’s just no real jeopardy in it. You know that the characters who show up in New Hope are bulletproof and anyone else isn’t. The fight with Vader lacked any tension because neither character can die. However, I’m enjoying the acting, visuals, and Easter eggs. The saddest thing is fandom showing it’s ugly side and trying to ruin a nice thing.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I find it strange when people require Death for there to be Stakes. As a comic book fan, I find the death of a character to be the absolute least interesting story that anyone can tell. Sure, that's partly because a comic book character will (nearly always) come back to life at some point, but it's also, just... boring.

I think that there are plenty of worthy stakes, tension, and jeopardy in a story even when death is off the table. It just takes a little more thought on the part of the writers. Death is of course, obviously a very powerful threat, and therefor an easy "tool" for tension, but it's not the only threat.


----------



## Zardnaar

Flamestrike said:


> The acting (and dialogue) in the prequels was awful, not that you can blame the actors (many of whom are fantastic actors).
> 
> Standing in front of a blue screen for weeks on end, while Lucas asks you to 'Do it again, only this time angry' is less than ideal to get into character, or to really portray a role.
> 
> Ewan McGregor hasnt suddenly become a better actor over the past 15 years. He's just been given a better environment to work his craft.




 Yeah acting wasn't the best in the prequels but I don't blame them for that as most of them are decent actors.

 I blame Lucas for the prequels problems, Disney creative team/lack of it for the sequels and the writers for BoBF. 

 Disney's batting about 50/50 which is similar to Luca's. Hell they're probably closer to 66%.

 Hell if I got to redo the sequels I would keep the same actors wasn't their fault.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MGibster said:


> No? I think it's established in the prequels that there are only two Sith at any given time, an apprentice and a master.



It's established that the Sith guard their secrets jealously, and thus Inquisitors only have a fraction of the power. The Grand Inquisitor is a former Jedi Temple guard.


MGibster said:


> Ben is weak, and Vader is a powerful malevolent presence.



It's pretty clear as a plot point that so long as he is not using the Force, Ben can't be detected through it. When he uses the Force he lights up like a beacon.


----------



## Flamestrike

FitzTheRuke said:


> I find it strange when people require Death for there to be Stakes.




The problem in this series is that there are no stakes at all. We already know Leia isnt going to die, or be revealed as Vaders daughter (and neither will Luke), or find it out for herself, nor is Obi Wan going to die, or anything really bad happen to him, and that he's going to trump Vader in the finale, and learn how to become a Force Ghost from Qui Gonn.

We're meant to be scared for Leia now she's in the hands of the Inquisition and Reva, but how can we be, already knowing she's gonna be fine? How can we truly be concerned for Obi Wan, knowing that he's got another 10 years left in him, and succeeds in talking to Qui Gonn and defeating Vader (again)?

It's the same with the Grand Inquisitor. We know he's not actually dead.

The only character with an open book is Reva (she can die, be redeemed or whatever) but she's been badly written in a very one dimensional manner to date.


----------



## Zardnaar

Flamestrike said:


> The problem in this series is that there are no stakes at all. We already know Leia isnt going to die, or be revealed as Vaders daughter (and neither will Luke), or find it out for herself, nor is Obi Wan going to die, or anything really bad happen to him, and that he's going to trump Vader in the finale, and learn how to become a Force Ghost from Qui Gonn.
> 
> We're meant to be scared for Leia now she's in the hands of the Inquisition and Reva, but how can we be, already knowing she's gonna be fine? How can we truly be concerned for Obi Wan, knowing that he's got another 10 years left in him, and succeeds in talking to Qui Gonn and defeating Vader (again)?
> 
> It's the same with the Grand Inquisitor. We know he's not actually dead.
> 
> The only character with an open book is Reva (she can die, be redeemed or whatever) but she's been badly written in a very one dimensional manner to date.




 This there's to many characters with built in plot immunity.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Flamestrike said:


> The problem in this series is that there are no stakes at all.



This is a fundamental problem with all prequals.

However, the "stake" in this series is Obi-Wan's faith, and the uncertainty is in how he will regain it.


----------



## Flamestrike

Paul Farquhar said:


> This is a fundamental problem with all prequals.




Tell that to Qui Gonn, Padme, Mace Windu, and many others.

Padme really had the worst character arc in the prequels. Lose everything you care about, be the victim of domestic violence at the hands of your secret (genocidal) husband, and then die in childbirth 'of a broken heart'.

She basically existed only to give Anakin a reason to fall from grace, and to give birth to Luke and Leia, because someone had to. She was a plot device, and not an actual character.

Such a waste of Portmans acting talent.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Flamestrike said:


> The problem in this series is that there are no stakes at all. We already know Leia isnt going to die, or be revealed as Vaders daughter (and neither will Luke), or find it out for herself, nor is Obi Wan going to die, or anything really bad happen to him, and that he's going to trump Vader in the finale, and learn how to become a Force Ghost from Qui Gonn.
> 
> We're meant to be scared for Leia now she's in the hands of the Inquisition and Reva, but how can we be, already knowing she's gonna be fine? How can we truly be concerned for Obi Wan, knowing that he's got another 10 years left in him, and succeeds in talking to Qui Gonn and defeating Vader (again)?
> 
> It's the same with the Grand Inquisitor. We know he's not actually dead.
> 
> The only character with an open book is Reva (she can die, be redeemed or whatever) but she's been badly written in a very one dimensional manner to date.



I guess if you just digest media out of curiosity over who will die or whatever then maybe that's true. But, you know, it's about the journey. 

And that goes double for something like Star Wars, where we know good will always win in the end. 

We don't need to know that Leia is Leia to know that she won't die, we just need to see that she's 10 and can safely assume that a 10 year old was always ultimately going to safely make it through a Star Wars story because she's a ten year old and this wasn't the sort of franchise where kids could die even before it was bought by the house of mouse.

And as proof that it is the journey, I offer the fact that even knowing their fates I am actually far more invested in what happens to Obi-Wan, Leia, or Vader in this series than I am in Reva the Boring, whose fate is unknown. For the record I am also more invested in the fates of several random one scene characters than in Reva, but that's besides the point.  

Needing to know how it ends is often a factor in compelling viewers, readers, etc. to consume your media. But if it's the primary reason your consuming something it's probably an unsatisfying experience. And if it was the main driver for people to consume media they would only ever want to read, watch, etc. anything once. Personally I find this show compelling without needing that cheap don't-know-what-will-happen factor. Others' mileage may vary.


----------



## Hussar

Yeah can I just say I’m enjoying a really cool Star Wars story? Do I really have to analyze it much further than that?

Hell I like Reva. Badass Jedi hunter with some mystery. Works for me. 

Since when does anyone watch Star Wars for the acting? Or the dialogue? People must have seen really different movies than I saw.


----------



## damiller

Flamestrike said:


> The acting (and dialogue) in the prequels was awful, not that you can blame the actors (many of whom are fantastic actors).




I think that the acting has been bad in all BUT the sequels.

Harrison Ford has been quoted saying, " 'George! You can type this sh*t, but you sure can't say it!"

And George has said that the Original Trilogy was an homage to the pulps (particularly Flash Gordon) of the 1930s/40s. The dialogue and characterization in those is stilted, is thin, is wooden. Its just what they did. And it amazing how well he implemented that kind of dialogue and characterization in the OT.

BUT out of step with what movies had become - which is why I think it was popular.

The prequels.

From what I can tell in reading about it and listening to interviews with George he was trying to make a greek tragedy. In the mode of a greek tragedy. From the little I know the acting in those was almost literally wooden because the actors had masks with faces on them. The main component of characterization: the music. Multiple times George stated he wanted the prequels to be Tone Poems. And if you listen to the music from the Prequels it rivals, as far as I am concerned, any of the other trilogies.

BUT out of step with what movies had become - I think you can dislike it because it isn't a good movie, but it is one HELL of a greek tragedy - in the greek tragedy form of delivery.

I also enjoy the Sequels. But they are modern movies. The acting is better than any of the other trilogies, and if not the acting at least the characterization. The music is good as well. The pacing is in step with modern movie.

I dont think this means anyone has to like any of the trilogies. But I do for those reasons, and I marvel that a director was able to capture SO well both the pulps of the 1930s and greek tragedies. The technical genius to do so astounds me. And I watch them for that achievement, not because they are good movies.


----------



## Mallus

Zardnaar said:


> This there's to many characters with built in plot immunity.



Plot immunity didn’t hurt Kirk or Bond. Well okay hurt yes, but kill, no.


----------



## wicked cool

Flamestrike said:


> The usual assholes are review bombing the show, with a notable number of them discussing 'Woke agendas' and 'race based casting' and Disney 'cucking' Star wars etc.
> 
> Literally hundreds of 'fans' have posted racist crap on her social medial accounts (including using the 'n' word):
> 
> Star Wars Speaks Out Against Racist Comments Directed At Obi-Wan's Moses Ingram - IGN
> 
> These are the same toxic Nazi edge lord assholes who lurk on 4chan, doxxed women over Gamergate, bombed The Last Of Us 2 (over it's inclusion of a Jewish character, lesbian storyline, and transgender character) and got stuck into Kelly Tran and John Bogeya for race stuff as well in Ep 8.
> 
> If you're choosing a side in that debate, it's on on the side of Moses Ingram.



i agree thats horrible and there is no excuse

however i think some of your examples are also just bad films/game changes as well .  the star wars movies are a complete mess. John Bogeya was treated horribly in this movies by Disney (his  storyline was a mess) . he started off as a top 3 character and was basically reduced to a side show . Disney was guilty of some of this with the posters in China and reducing his picture in them  

I would argue that there is more to the Moses story . she was quoted in articles months before the premiere that this was going to happen and she talked about the lack of non white characters . I think it was vanity fair but its somewhat easy to find 

like i said earlier. i think this is WWE theater


----------



## Flamestrike

Mallus said:


> Plot immunity didn’t hurt Kirk or Bond. Well okay hurt yes, but kill, no.




Both got killed off.


----------



## Imaculata

I enjoy watching the characters. So far I really like Obi Wan facing his traumas, and trying to reconnect with the force. His confrontation with Vader was something I was looking forward to, and not so much whether he lives or dies... because we all know he lives. But you don't need life or death stakes to create compelling television.


----------



## Mallus

Flamestrike said:


> Both got killed off.



And how long did that take?


----------



## Mallus

Imaculata said:


> I enjoy watching the characters. So far I really like Obi Wan facing his traumas, and trying to reconnect with the force. His confrontation with Vader was something I was looking forward to, and not so much whether he lives or dies... because we all know he lives. But you don't need life or death stakes to create compelling television.



Yeah, for me the most compelling part of the show so far is Obi-Wan wrestling with PTSD (and the feelings he had for Padme?). When they raised the stakes in the traditional way for an adventure story by putting Vader on-screen, I found myself reaching for my iPad.


----------



## Zaukrie

Leia is the only part my wife and I are enjoying. Obi Wan? He's spent ten years not helping people at all. Apparently no one can go around gates or fire in that galaxy. And they can fly anywhere in minutes. Ugh on that last part. It could be taking place on one planet and they couldn't travel that fast.....


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> And they can fly anywhere in minutes. Ugh on that last part. It could be taking place on one planet and they couldn't travel that fast.....



That's always been the case in the Star Wars universe. Travel between star systems is measured in hours at most, even across half the galaxy.


----------



## Morrus

Mallus said:


> Plot immunity didn’t hurt Kirk or Bond. Well okay hurt yes, but kill, no.



That’s untrue on both counts!


----------



## Mallus

Morrus said:


> That’s untrue on both counts!



In what way? Kirk didn't die until the first TNG movie, after his TV show and film series. 

Bond didn't... well, I actually haven't see the last one, but I assume in that one!


----------



## Morrus

Mallus said:


> In what way? Kirk didn't die until the first TNG movie, after his TV show and film series.



How is that not dying?


Mallus said:


> Bond didn't... well, I actually haven't see the last one, but I assume in that one!



Well… I recommend it. It’s a great film!


----------



## Flamestrike

Mallus said:


> Bond didn't... well, I actually haven't see the last one, but I assume in that one!




You might want to get on to that!


----------



## MGibster

Morrus said:


> How is that not dying?



You're technically correct, which might be the best form of correct.  But that crummy movie was written for the Trek torch to pass from the original crew to the next generation, so Kirk's death was no surprise.  It's kind of like counting Arthur's death in Le Morte d'Arthur or Beowulf in, uh, whatever story he appeared in.  It's the end of story, what else is going to happen?  However, Trek should get some credit in other areas.  I was sure as heck surprised and traumitized by the death of Spock in 1982's _The Wrath of Khan._  I still remember little six-year-old me holding back tears as Spock tells Kirk, "I have been and always will be your friend."  I was also genuinely surprised when Tasha Yar was killed off by a sentient and malevolant Magic Shell though it didn't quite have the emotional impact as Spock's death.


----------



## Mallus

Morrus said:


> How is that not dying?



What I meant was Jim Kirk had many adventures where we all knew he'd survive to the end credits. 

"Stakes are a relative thing when you're talking about TV series and media franchises. It's why Game of Thrones stood out so much - the folks you thought were protagonists could die. 


Morrus said:


> Well… I recommend it. It’s a great film!



I'm looking forward to seeing it but I'm being cheap. I'm waiting for it to hit a streaming service I subscribe to or go on sale on iTunes!


----------



## Zaukrie

MarkB said:


> That's always been the case in the Star Wars universe. Travel between star systems is measured in hours at most, even across half the galaxy.



Doesn't mean I like it. Even a little. It's making a certain Star Trek less fun also.


----------



## Hriston

I think this series is setting things up to be about Reva's redemption arc at least as much as if not more so than it is about Obi-Wan gradually regaining his lost faith, and I think it will be just as sudden as Vader's redemption in RotJ, which is why there has been so little development of her character so far. 

In the next three episodes, I think we're going to see Reva capture Leia and learn she is force sensitive, possibly even guessing her connection to Anakin, and try to bring Leia to Vader to be turned, luring Obi-Wan at the same time.

I think Vader won't reappear until the final episode at which point he will be betrayed by Reva who will sacrifice herself to save Leia and Obi-Wan. I have no idea how they're going to pull this off except that perhaps she has formed a bond with Leia at this point. We've already seen that she has no problem killing her boss, but this time it will be because of the good in her, prefiguring Vader's later betrayal of Palpatine.


----------



## trappedslider

'Obi-Wan Kenobi' Season Two Reportedly in Development
					

Ewan McGregor previously confirmed that he is open to returning as Obi-Wan again.




					hypebeast.com


----------



## Hussar

Hriston said:


> I think this series is setting things up to be about Reva's redemption arc at least as much as if not more so than it is about Obi-Wan gradually regaining his lost faith, and I think it will be just as sudden as Vader's redemption in RotJ, which is why there has been so little development of her character so far.
> 
> In the next three episodes, I think we're going to see Reva capture Leia and learn she is force sensitive, possibly even guessing her connection to Anakin, and try to bring Leia to Vader to be turned, luring Obi-Wan at the same time.
> 
> I think Vader won't reappear until the final episode at which point he will be betrayed by Reva who will sacrifice herself to save Leia and Obi-Wan. I have no idea how they're going to pull this off except that perhaps she has formed a bond with Leia at this point. We've already seen that she has no problem killing her boss, but this time it will be because of the good in her, prefiguring Vader's later betrayal of Palpatine.



I could live with this plot.


----------



## pukunui

trappedslider said:


> 'Obi-Wan Kenobi' Season Two Reportedly in Development
> 
> 
> Ewan McGregor previously confirmed that he is open to returning as Obi-Wan again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hypebeast.com



OK, so Ewan says that this series that's playing right now was made as a one-off and achieves what he wanted to achieve in terms of bringing his Obi-Wan closer to Alec's Obi-Wan. So while I'd love to see a season 2 with more Ewan, what would it be about? It would have to not involve Vader, I think.


----------



## Davies

pukunui said:


> OK, so Ewan says that this series that's playing right now was made as a one-off and achieves what he wanted to achieve in terms of bringing his Obi-Wan closer to Alec's Obi-Wan. So while I'd love to see a season 2 with more Ewan, what would it be about?



Developing a friendship with Luke, in contrast to the way that this was about Leia. Encountering Jabba the Hutt. Setting up events that play out decades later in _The Mandalorian_ or _Book of Boba Fett_.


----------



## Flamestrike

Davies said:


> Developing a friendship with Luke.




They seemed to not know each other when they met in 4 right?


----------



## Davies

Flamestrike said:


> They seemed to not know each other when they met in 4 right?



No, Luke clearly recognizes his face when he awakens and calls him "Ben". They might not have know each other _well_, but when Artoo claims to be the property of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke immediately brings up "old Ben Kenobi".


----------



## Flamestrike

Davies said:


> No, Luke clearly recognizes his face when he awakens and calls him "Ben". They might not have know each other _well_, but when Artoo claims to be the property of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke immediately brings up "old Ben Kenobi".




Yeah you're right:



Obi wan scares off the Sand People with a _Mind Trick,_ and then uses _Vital Transfer _on Luke to heal him back up from Zero HP.

Luke seems to recognize him as 'Ben' when he wakes up, and Obi Wan calls him 'Luke' without asking his name in return.


----------



## Hussar

Or, it could simply be Kenobi sort of wandering around, Kane style, solving problems.  So long as they keep the plots mostly self contained and not major (as in big, setting spanning stuff) the series could really be about anything it wants to be.  People were asking for some Star Wars that isn't all about the main series - well, here's a good way to do it.


----------



## pukunui

Hussar said:


> Or, it could simply be Kenobi sort of wandering around, Kane style, solving problems.  So long as they keep the plots mostly self contained and not major (as in big, setting spanning stuff) the series could really be about anything it wants to be.  People were asking for some Star Wars that isn't all about the main series - well, here's a good way to do it.



Well, OK, but if they do that, then Obi-Wan isn't really a crazy old hermit living out by the Dune Sea or whatever.


----------



## Tonguez

pukunui said:


> Well, OK, but if they do that, then Obi-Wan isn't really a crazy old hermit living out by the Dune Sea or whatever.



They could do Obi-wan: Dances with Sand People, or Obi-wan:Jawa adventures


----------



## Hussar

pukunui said:


> Well, OK, but if they do that, then Obi-Wan isn't really a crazy old hermit living out by the Dune Sea or whatever.



Why?  No one really has to know.  Would anyone notice if that crazy old hermit wasn't seen for a couple of months?  The only person who calls Obi-wan that crazy old hermit is Uncle Owen who isn't exactly an unbiased observer here.


----------



## pukunui

Hussar said:


> Why?  No one really has to know.  Would anyone notice if that crazy old hermit wasn't seen for a couple of months?  The only person who calls Obi-wan that crazy old hermit is Uncle Owen who isn't exactly an unbiased observer here.



I dunno. It just puts the lie to the idea that Obi-Wan spent the better part of 20 years in hiding.

At this rate, Disney is going to have to remake the original trilogy, adjusting the dialogue that no longer tracks as true because of all the prequel stuff that has contradicted it.


----------



## Nikosandros

pukunui said:


> At this rate, Disney is going to have to remake the original trilogy, adjusting the dialogue that no longer tracks as true because of all the prequel stuff that has contradicted it.



Don't give them any ideas!


----------



## Flamestrike

pukunui said:


> At this rate, Disney is going to have to remake the original trilogy,




Lucas did that already remember?


----------



## Imaculata

This reminds me of when Spielberg wanted to retroactively replace all guns in ET with walky talkies.


----------



## pukunui

Flamestrike said:


> Lucas did that already remember?



Sort of. I meant like completely remake with a new cast and everything. Everyone says Sebastian Stan would make a good Luke after all.



Imaculata said:


> This reminds me of when Spielberg wanted to retroactively replace all guns in ET with walky talkies.



Yeah, that was silly. And the scene he added of ET in the bathtub is just as awful-looking as some of the extra scenes Lucas added to the OT.


----------



## Hussar

pukunui said:


> I dunno. It just puts the lie to the idea that Obi-Wan spent the better part of 20 years in hiding.
> 
> At this rate, Disney is going to have to remake the original trilogy, adjusting the dialogue that no longer tracks as true because of all the prequel stuff that has contradicted it.



Who said Obi-wan spent 20 years in hiding?  As far as I can remember, that's never actually stated anywhere.  We just assume it's true, but, the only real information we get from the movies is that he's a crazy old man and that's from the guy who really, really doesn't like him.  

Although, as a prediction, I think something is going to have to happen to convince Vader that Obi-wan is dead.  After all, Vader isn't convinced, it's not terribly believably that he couldn't find him again.


----------



## delericho

trappedslider said:


> 'Obi-Wan Kenobi' Season Two Reportedly in Development
> 
> 
> Ewan McGregor previously confirmed that he is open to returning as Obi-Wan again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hypebeast.com



Oh, I hope not. As with Picard, it has been interesting to revisit the character, but it would be better to leave it as a single season.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Hussar said:


> Although, as a prediction, I think something is going to have to happen to convince Vader that Obi-wan is dead. After all, Vader isn't convinced, it's not terribly believably that he couldn't find him again.



Vader isn't surprised that Kenobi is alive in ANH. He is surprised that he "came back".


----------



## Maxperson

Imaculata said:


> This reminds me of when Spielberg wanted to retroactively replace all guns in ET with walky talkies.



That's like Lucas's alterations to the original three Star Wars movies.


----------



## Stalker0

pukunui said:


> Well, OK, but if they do that, then Obi-Wan isn't really a crazy old hermit living out by the Dune Sea or whatever.



It will still be true…from a certain point of view


----------



## Morrus

pukunui said:


> Well, OK, but if they do that, then Obi-Wan isn't really a crazy old hermit living out by the Dune Sea or whatever.



Sure, but Owen Lars wants Luke to think he is.


----------



## Hussar

New series pitch. 

Sit-com where Obi-Wan continuously defends Luke every episode but can’t let Luke know. 

Hilarity ensues.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> New series pitch.
> 
> Sit-com where Obi-Wan continuously defends Luke every episode but can’t let Luke know.
> 
> Hilarity ensues.



Like Sgt. Hulka in "Stripes."


----------



## Older Beholder

I did a rewatch of the first 3 eps over the weekend. 
The show has gotten better with each episode, for me.

I noticed that the Jedi at the start is one of the Safdie brothers, (who directed the movies 'Good Time' and 'Uncut Gems'), I guess after Werner Herzog was in the Mandalorian I shouldn't really be surprised by any Star Wars cameos at this point. Still cool though.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

DeviousQuail said:


> It's hard to figure out how to explain it but I'll try. I agree that it feels very appropriate considering everything Obi-wan has been going through. No argument there. It took me out of the show because the rest of the show has this big adventure vibe to it. Leia is this fish out of water who wants more from life. Obi-wan is dragged back into a conflict he just wanted to leave behind. The bad guys are over the top villains. Kumail Nanjiani is doing Kumail Nanjiani things. All good fun. Even the other bad stuff we saw, like the strung up jedi, felt in keeping with that call to adventure vibe.
> 
> But the scene with the trooper hits differently for me. It was like a slice of real life got thrown into my fun story about space wizards. This man who lived past their usefulness to an uncaring machine has to beg to survive. The look on Obi-wan's face knowing that he bares some responsibility for putting him there. Just a gut punch now that he's opening up to helping others again. Like saying, "You want to start caring again, Obi-wan? What about me?" Just a bit too real.



This is exactly why I’m glad that scene is in the show. It shows a genuine understanding of the nature of Star Wars. The OT literally holds a mirror up to Western Imperialism, the prequels show a grand democratic republic descending into fascism, and here we get a reminder of the way militaristic governments aggrandize their military might on the one hand, and discard the actual people who make up that might when they stop being useful on the other. 

It’s an extremely Star Wars scene.


----------



## trappedslider

what did the little mouse droid do?!?


----------



## Tonguez

Oh no, Lola is a spybot!!!


----------



## pukunui

Alas, poor Wade, we hardly knew ye!

That was a great episode. 

Little Leia shows the beginnings of her legendary resistance to Imperial interrogation methods.

It was also fun to see a live action version of Nur. Interesting to see that Obi-Wan entered the base in essentially the same way as Cal. You'd think that after Cal's incursion, they'd have a) put more security on the underwater entrances and b) strengthened the underwater glass.

It was great to see Obi-Wan beginning to rediscover his strength in the Force and remembering his lightsaber forms and such.


----------



## John R Davis

Best ep yet.

Very very starwarsy.


----------



## wicked cool

32 minutes this week -slightly better episode but dialogue is really weak and the escape plan where shes under his uniform? why not put her in a cargo container and have him dress as a worker

the entrance with the security guard was really bad. shes not his commanding officer. 

are we supposed to know whos in the tanks? tombs?


----------



## John R Davis

Because it's Star Wars!
Terrible plan to get in 
Fully implausible escape.


----------



## trappedslider

wicked cool said:


> the entrance with the security guard was really bad. shes not his commanding officer.



It seems to me the best way to get into an imperial place where one shouldn't be is to act like you're management in some form.


----------



## embee

Leia is basically Kim Bauer (from 24) and Liam Neeson's daughter in that she has been kidnapped multiple times and needs to be rescued by the same special agent guy again and again.


----------



## MarkB

embee said:


> Leia is basically Kim Bauer (from 24) and Liam Neeson's daughter in that she has been kidnapped multiple times and needs to be rescued by the same special agent guy again and again.



Except that it's not coincidental. They're kidnapping her specifically to get to him.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> It was also fun to see a live action version of Nur. Interesting to see that Obi-Wan entered the base in essentially the same way as Cal. You'd think that after Cal's incursion, they'd have a) put more security on the underwater entrances and b) strengthened the underwater glass.




About 5 years go by between Cal and Obi-wan sneaking into the base, so maybe the security was relaxed again or got reassigned elsewhere in the base? I tried playing the game, but could not get into it, so I did not get that far and can't speak for how Cal sneaking in played out.


----------



## pukunui

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> About 5 years go by between Cal and Obi-wan sneaking into the base, so maybe the security was relaxed again or got reassigned elsewhere in the base? I tried playing the game, but could not get into it, so I did not get that far and can't speak for how Cal sneaking in played out.



He also sneaks in via an underwater access point, and at some stage, the glass breaks and floods sections that he has to swim through.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> He also sneaks in via an underwater access point, and at some stage, the glass breaks and floods sections that he has to swim through.




Well, we know he is canon and all the other characters, and any deaths, are canon, but the actual gameplay probably isn't. Obi-wan sneaking in that way, and the glass breaking, may be more of an homage to the game than a repeat of the same tactic. They like to do that kind of thing in the Star Wars and Marvel shows.


----------



## pukunui

Fair enough!

Further thoughts:

*Should we know who any of the dead people (were they all Jedi?) in amber were? The only one I (sort of) recognized was the kid in the youngling outfit. I’m guessing the inquisitors preserved the bodies as trophies.

*Did Reva give us some clues in her convo with Leia that she was indeed one of the younglings from the cold open? She talked about having had a droid that was taken away from her - sounds like something that would’ve happened when she was taken to the Jedi Temple.

*The Nur gate security guy didn’t comment when Tala mentioned the Grand Inquisitor so does that mean he’s still alive?


----------



## Nikosandros

pukunui said:


> *Should we know who any of the dead people (were they all Jedi?) in amber were? The only one I (sort of) recognized was the kid in the youngling outfit. I’m guessing the inquisitors preserved the bodies as trophies.
> 
> 
> *The Nur gate security guy didn’t comment when Tala mentioned the Grand Inquisitor so does that mean he’s still alive?



1) According to an Italian Star Wars fan site, two of the "aliens" were likely to be Master Coleman Kcaj and Tera Sinube.

2) Another explanation might have been that the death of the Grand Inquisitor has been kept secret for the rank and file. In any event, in some why he must come back or not be really dead since I don't think that they want to invalidate Rebels.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> *The Nur gate security guy didn’t comment when Tala mentioned the Grand Inquisitor so does that mean he’s still alive?




The organization was only in existence for the 19 years in between Order 66 and the original movie, and none of the ones with an actual title of Sister or Brother were replaced when they died, so far in canon at least, so if the Grand Inquisitor is alive for Rebels, he had to survive Reva's attack. Plus, no one else of the current Sisters and Brothers looks like the Grand Inquisitor, so they can't get promoted to the spot. And I really do not see this show invalidating a major part of the plot of Rebels.


----------



## embee

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The organization was only in existence for the 19 years in between Order 66 and the original movie, and none of the ones with an actual title of Sister or Brother were replaced when they died, so far in canon at least, so if the Grand Inquisitor is alive for Rebels, he had to survive Reva's attack. Plus, no one else of the current Sisters and Brothers looks like the Grand Inquisitor, so they can't get promoted to the spot. And I really do not see this show invalidating a major part of the plot of Rebels.



Retconning and invalidating central premises of other SW properties seems to be this show's modus operandi.


----------



## Yora

(that's been the case since 2015)


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

embee said:


> Retconning and invalidating central premises of other SW properties seems to be this show's modus operandi.




I don't care what they did with the old EU/Legends stuff, I am happy most of that crap no longer counts, but Rebels is Disney Star Wars and part of the limited stuff that is fully canon.


----------



## MarkB

Maybe at some point they'll do a fake-out version of one of those Obi-wan and Vader bacta tank connection visions, except that when the person startles back to awareness it turns out that it was actually Reva having a vision of the Grand Inquisitor.


----------



## Ryujin

pukunui said:


> *Should we know who any of the dead people (were they all Jedi?) in amber were? The only one I (sort of) recognized was the kid in the youngling outfit. I’m guessing the inquisitors preserved the bodies as trophies.



I was wondering if that might not be a variation on the "frozen in carbonite" thing. There were no visible wounds and they all seemed to be standing, from what I can remember.


----------



## South by Southwest

I no longer have any residual reservations about Ms. Ingram's acting work. I don't think it's that her character grew on me so much as that she grew into it. The emotional range and subtlety of posture, tone, and intonation she demonstrated in this episode was great. Even when she was right in front of Ewan McGregor, he didn't steal the scene from her: they were both right there in the scene 100%. I did not see an actress trying to accomplish something in this episode: all I saw were the characters on the screen.

Even the _deus ex machina_ at the end didn't bother me. Certainly, someone could reasonably complain about how predictable it was, but my rejoinder will be, "So what? They did it well and it worked."


----------



## Ryujin

South by Southwest said:


> I no longer have any residual reservations about Ms. Imgram's acting work. I don't think it's that her character grew on me so much as that she grew into it. The emotional range and subtlety of posture, tone, and intonation she demonstrated in this episode was great. Even when she was right in front of Ewan McGregor, he didn't steal the scene from her: they were both right there in the scene 100%. I did not see an actress trying to accomplish something in this episode: all I saw were the characters on the screen.
> 
> Even the _deus ex machina_ at the end didn't bother me. Certainly, someone could reasonably complain about how predictable it was, but my rejoinder will be, "So what? They did it well and it worked."



Star wars is essentially a 1930s/1940s movie serial in which they just skip the cliffhanger and jump directly to the save.


----------



## South by Southwest

Ryujin said:


> Star wars is essentially a 1930s/1940s movie serial in which they just skip the cliffhanger and jump directly to the save.



Yeah, I mean, you totally could feel it coming. The musical score, the people standing around in dramatic poses like it's some kind of face-off, the camera work: it all proudly announced, "Here we go!"







But it was cool.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

South by Southwest said:


> I no longer have any residual reservations about Ms. Imgram's acting work. I don't think it's that her character grew on me so much as that she grew into it. The emotional range and subtlety of posture, tone, and intonation she demonstrated in this episode was great. Even when she was right in front of Ewan McGregor, he didn't steal the scene from her: they were both right there in the scene 100%. I did not see an actress trying to accomplish something in this episode: all I saw were the characters on the screen.




Yeah, in this episode she was less the negative stereotype of the "uppity black woman" (loud, pushy, overbearing) than she was previously, but that may be because her character was dealing one-on-one with a child and not other adults/rivals/enemies, so we will see if she falls back into that in the final two episodes.


----------



## South by Southwest

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yeah, in this episode she was less the negative stereotype of the "uppity black woman" (loud, pushy, overbearing) than she was previously, but that may be because her character was dealing one-on-one with a child and not other adults/rivals/enemies, so we will see if she falls back into that in the final two episodes.



Reva's interactions with Leia were _great_. To me, those were some highlights of the episode.


----------



## MGibster

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yeah, in this episode she was less the negative stereotype of the "uppity black woman" (loud, pushy, overbearing) than she was previously, but that may be because her character was dealing one-on-one with a child and not other adults/rivals/enemies, so we will see if she falls back into that in the final two episodes.



Jesus, is that how people view the character?  To me, she was your standard evil user of the Force.  It didn't occur to me that she was what anyone thought of as a stereotype.  That's just so unfair to Ingram Moses.


----------



## pukunui

Nikosandros said:


> 1) According to an Italian Star Wars fan site, two of the "aliens" were likely to be Master Coleman Kcaj and Tera Sinube.



Not Tera! He was cool and taught Ahsoka some valuable lessons. 



Nikosandros said:


> 2) Another explanation might have been that the death of the Grand Inquisitor has been kept secret for the rank and file. In any event, in some why he must come back or not be really dead since I don't think that they want to invalidate Rebels.





Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The organization was only in existence for the 19 years in between Order 66 and the original movie, and none of the ones with an actual title of Sister or Brother were replaced when they died, so far in canon at least, so if the Grand Inquisitor is alive for Rebels, he had to survive Reva's attack. Plus, no one else of the current Sisters and Brothers looks like the Grand Inquisitor, so they can't get promoted to the spot. And I really do not see this show invalidating a major part of the plot of Rebels.



Yeah, I should have worded my question more clearly to be: was that _confirmation_ that the Grand Inquisitor is still alive? I agree that they don't want to invalidate Rebels.



Ryujin said:


> I was wondering if that might not be a variation on the "frozen in carbonite" thing. There were no visible wounds and they all seemed to be standing, from what I can remember.



Hmm. Obi-Wan described it as a tomb, so I assumed that meant they were all dead. I expect he'd be able to sense them through the Force if they were still alive, even if they're "frozen".


----------



## Mallus

OK, the fourth episode was fantastic.


----------



## Flamestrike

embee said:


> Leia is basically Kim Bauer (from 24) and Liam Neeson's daughter in that she has been kidnapped


----------



## Flamestrike

pukunui said:


> The only one I (sort of) recognized was the kid in the youngling outfit.




They kept his training helmet on him, all the way from the Jedi temple to Mustafar, including when being frozen in Amber?

I found that super weird.


----------



## pukunui

Flamestrike said:


> They kept his training helmet on him, all the way from the Jedi temple to Mustafar, including when being frozen in Amber?
> 
> I found that super weird.



Yeah it was a bit weird. Maybe they put it back on him as they were sticking him in there. They looked very trophy-ish, along with all the lightsabers on display in the other room.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> Yeah, I should have worded my question more clearly to be: was that _confirmation_ that the Grand Inquisitor is still alive?



If you listen to Vader's conversation with Reva in Ep 3 he doesn't _actually_ confirm GI is dead. He just allows Reva to believe it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> They like to do that kind of thing in the Star Wars and Marvel shows.



Much of Ep 4 is a homage to ANH. Obi-Wan sneaking around an Imperial base and distracting two stormtroopers with the Force. The unattended comlink. Leia being interrogated about the location of the secret rebel base. The planting of a tracking device.

Prediction: The proto-rebels survive and move their base to Dantooine.


----------



## Davies

Paul Farquhar said:


> Much of Ep 4 is a homage to ANH.



You realize why this statement is funny, right?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Oh, another easter egg I noticed. The force users are preserved in *amber*.

This is a Jurassic Park reference. They are there as part of Palpatine's cloning program, something that may well be referenced again in The Bad Batch, Ahsoka, and possibly Andor.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Davies said:


> You realize why this statement is funny, right?



I expect that was intentional too.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> Oh, another easter egg I noticed. The force users are preserved in *amber*.
> 
> This is a Jurassic Park reference. They are there as part of Palpatine's cloning program, something that may well be referenced again in The Bad Batch, Ahsoka, and possibly Andor.




Probably not Ahsoka because that is post-Jedi.


----------



## Zardnaar

MGibster said:


> Jesus, is that how people view the character?  To me, she was your standard evil user of the Force.  It didn't occur to me that she was what anyone thought of as a stereotype.  That's just so unfair to Ingram Moses.




 Didn't spot that myself but not American. Reva was alot better this episode she was just to chaotic stupid episode 1/2. Actors doing fine imho. 

   Alot of homages to ANH and one to Phantom Menace.


----------



## pukunui

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Probably not Ahsoka because that is post-Jedi.



But pre-_Rise of Skywalker_. If they can show us proto-Snokes in vats in _The Mandalorian_, they can show us more hints about Palpatine's cloning machinations in _Ahsoka_ as well. Disney/LFL is working very hard to establish some backstory for Palpatine's return.


----------



## Zardnaar

pukunui said:


> But pre-_Rise of Skywalker_. If they can show us proto-Snokes in vats in _The Mandalorian_, they can show us more hints about Palpatine's cloning machinations in _Ahsoka_ as well. Disney/LFL is working very hard to establish some backstory for Palpatine's return.




 It's like they could have put it in a movie or something. Hell Dark Empire did it better in 1991 and DE isn't great. 

 They basically explained his return in one of the visual books iirc. Well more Snoke perhaps. 

 It's not rocket science though. Cloning plus escence transfer or some variation.

There's also not much stopping Palps coming back again. They did deal with that possibility in the 90's via cloning shenanigans.


----------



## Mezuka

Fun episode. The rebel fly by attack was a bit over the top, even if I liked it. How could they surprise the Tower. Don't they use scanners?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> But pre-_Rise of Skywalker_. If they can show us proto-Snokes in vats in _The Mandalorian_, they can show us more hints about Palpatine's cloning machinations in _Ahsoka_ as well. Disney/LFL is working very hard to establish some backstory for Palpatine's return.



Exactly. Not only can they patch the JJ Abrams plot-holes-big-enough-to-drive-a-Death-Star-through, they can create a unifying narrative across the different time periods.


----------



## MGibster

Zardnaar said:


> Didn't spot that myself but not American. Reva was alot better this episode she was just to chaotic stupid episode 1/2. Actors doing fine imho.



I didn't spot it either and I'm American.  Personally, I think that particular interpretation is a stretch.  I also disagree with the assessment that she's been chaotic stupid.  Her behavior was explained in the first episode where they establish that Jedi just can't help but be Jedi.  When Reva cuts off that woman's hand on Tatooine and threatens Own, she's doing it for a specific purpose.  Vader did the same thing while looking for Obi-Wan but I don't think anyone calls him chaotic stupid.


----------



## Zardnaar

MGibster said:


> I didn't spot it either and I'm American.  Personally, I think that particular interpretation is a stretch.  I also disagree with the assessment that she's been chaotic stupid.  Her behavior was explained in the first episode where they establish that Jedi just can't help but be Jedi.  When Reva cuts off that woman's hand on Tatooine and threatens Own, she's doing it for a specific purpose.  Vader did the same thing while looking for Obi-Wan but I don't think anyone calls him chaotic stupid.




 She was annoying the other inquisitors though. Even in crappy regimes they don't tend to do such things in public.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MGibster said:


> I also disagree with the assessment that she's been chaotic stupid.




Unnecessarily antagonises allies;
ignores orders;
works at cross purposes to her own team;
lies to her own team;
stabs party member in the back.
That's a fairly good fit for your typical Chaotic Stupid party member. Not that there is anything wrong with this outside of a D&D context. Real life has plenty of chaotic stupid people. And I expect her motives will become clear in the big penultimate episode flashback.


----------



## Mallus

Mezuka said:


> Fun episode. The rebel fly by attack was a bit over the top, even if I liked it. How could they surprise the Tower. Don't they use scanners?



I think those craft were like the snowspeeders in Empire and the implication was they flew in 'below the radar'. Of course that would mean there weren't spacecraft, and they skipped the scenes showing how they got to that moon. Yeah, it was a little confusing.


----------



## MarkB

Mallus said:


> I think those craft were like the snowspeeders in Empire and the implication was they flew in 'below the radar'. Of course that would mean there weren't spacecraft, and they skipped the scenes showing how they got to that moon. Yeah, it was a little confusing.



What's confusing? We see the surviving speeder dock with a transport ship. That's how they got in.

And they have an Imperial officer working with them. If the ship and/or speeders need clearance codes to get close, she could provide them.


----------



## Mannahnin

Paul Farquhar said:


> If you listen to Vader's conversation with Reva in Ep 3 he doesn't _actually_ confirm GI is dead. He just allows Reva to believe it.



This also could play into a potential redemption arc or, perhaps more likely, villain-turns-on-other-villains plot twist for Reva, if the Grand Inquisitor shows back up/Vader betrays her later.


----------



## Imaculata

It was a fun episode. Happy we got to see more of the Inquisitor stronghold that I remember playing through in Jedi Fallen Order. Obi Wan does some minor force stuff, and lots of deflecting of laser blasts.

The writing isn't stellar, but it is entertaining and seems to be going somewhere.


----------



## Mallus

MarkB said:


> What's confusing? We see the surviving speeder dock with a transport ship. That's how they got in.



The speeders look too much like A-wings to me. I had the same problem with them in Empire. They actually call them T-47s in the episode, but when they first appeared on screen I though they were star fighters that jumped in.

A like of dialogue about flying below their scanners would have been nice. Though it is obvious that's what they did, It would also help if there was a clearer delineation between vehicles that are a) airplanes, b) glorified hovercraft, c) and interstellar starships. But I guess that's Star Wars for you .


----------



## Imaculata

It also didn't help that they just did the exact same rebel rescue in The Mandelorean, but with x-wings.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Paul Farquhar said:


> Unnecessarily antagonises allies;
> ignores orders;
> works at cross purposes to her own team;
> lies to her own team;
> stabs party member in the back.
> That's a fairly good fit for your typical Chaotic Stupid party member. Not that there is anything wrong with this outside of a D&D context. Real life has plenty of chaotic stupid people. And I expect her motives will become clear in the big penultimate episode flashback.



I actually felt more like the other Inquisitors were Chaotic Stupid, because they didn't realize that Reva's plan was working. They in fact seemed kinda squeamish, seemingly having problems with Reva's brutality and cruelty. But she wasn't even as bad as Vader was when he appears on the scene and casually breaks some kids neck when going after Obi-Wan. Unless they are afraid of out-eviling Vader, I am not sure whey they were holding back.

The backstabbing was kinda mutual - the Grand Inquisitor should have just worked together with Reva, instead of sending her way so he could get the glory for himself. If they hadn't had that stupid discussion and backstabbing, they probably could have had Obi-Wan.


----------



## MGibster

Paul Farquhar said:


> Unnecessarily antagonises allies;



Those allies treat Reva like garbage.  I'd antagonize them too.  


Paul Farquhar said:


> ignores orders;



Their orders are pretty stupid.  She gets results.  


Paul Farquhar said:


> works at cross purposes to her own team;



The same team that wants to keep her down?  I'd work at cross purpose as well. 


Paul Farquhar said:


> lies to her own team;



Seriously, %#@! those guys.  I'd lie to them too.  They're not my friends.  


Paul Farquhar said:


> stabs party member in the back.



She stabbed her commanding officer who treats her like garbage and plans to take credit for what she's done to find Kenobi.  At the risk of repeating myself, %#@# that guy.  


Paul Farquhar said:


> That's a fairly good fit for your typical Chaotic Stupid party member.



I think part of the problem might be that you're looking at this from a gaming perspective.  This isn't a game, it's a story, and it's a story where Reva is an odds with the organization she belongs to.  Her actions make sense, they're not stupid.


----------



## Ryujin

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I actually felt more like the other Inquisitors were Chaotic Stupid, because they didn't realize that Reva's plan was working. They in fact seemed kinda squeamish, seemingly having problems with Reva's brutality and cruelty. But she wasn't even as bad as Vader was when he appears on the scene and casually breaks some kids neck when going after Obi-Wan. Unless they are afraid of out-eviling Vader, I am not sure whey they were holding back.
> 
> The backstabbing was kinda mutual - the Grand Inquisitor should have just worked together with Reva, instead of sending her way so he could get the glory for himself. If they hadn't had that stupid discussion and backstabbing, they probably could have had Obi-Wan.



And besides, that was plainly a front-stabbing.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MGibster said:


> Those allies treat Reva like garbage.  I'd antagonize them too.
> 
> Their orders are pretty stupid.  She gets results.
> 
> The same team that wants to keep her down?  I'd work at cross purpose as well.
> 
> Seriously, %#@! those guys.  I'd lie to them too.  They're not my friends.
> 
> She stabbed her commanding officer who treats her like garbage and plans to take credit for what she's done to find Kenobi.  At the risk of repeating myself, %#@# that guy.
> 
> I think part of the problem might be that you're looking at this from a gaming perspective.  This isn't a game, it's a story, and it's a story where Reva is an odds with the organization she belongs to.  Her actions make sense, they're not stupid.



Sure, her behaviour might well be understandable, and if she was in a 1970s cop show like Starsky and Hutch, defying her stupid bosses in order to catch a villain, even admirable.

But when people start talking about "Chaotic Stupid" a gaming perspective is implied. It simply does not exist in any other context. And in D&D terms, her behaviour fits a chaotic alignment. That does not imply a value judgment. Lawful Stupid is equally stupid.


----------



## Ryujin

Paul Farquhar said:


> Sure, her behaviour might well be understandable, and if she was in a 1970s cop show like Starsky and Hutch, defying her stupid bosses in order to catch a villain, even admirable.
> 
> But when people start talking about "Chaotic Stupid" a gaming perspective is implied. It simply does not exist in any other context. And in D&D terms, her behaviour fits a chaotic alignment. That does not imply a value judgment. Lawful Stupid is equally stupid.



Just more predictable.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

trappedslider said:


> It seems to me the best way to get into an imperial place where one shouldn't be is to act like you're management in some form.




That's what happens when you live in terror of your psychotic bosses.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> Unnecessarily antagonises allies;
> ignores orders;
> works at cross purposes to her own team;
> lies to her own team;
> stabs party member in the back.



So basically Anakin. No wonder they get along.


----------



## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> So basically Anakin. No wonder they get along.



Throw in Kylo and you'd have a party pack.


----------



## Hussar

Flamestrike said:


> They kept his training helmet on him, all the way from the Jedi temple to Mustafar, including when being frozen in Amber?
> 
> I found that super weird.



I thought this was more of a trophy room.  These Jedi were on display.  And, being on display like this, really drives it home to Obi-Wan just how bad things really are.  It's one thing to kill your enemies, but, to turn them into hunting trophies is horrific.  And, wouldn't this be something of a trophy room for Vader?  This is how far Vader has fallen (as if we needed more - but, this is all pre-Episode IV so, Obi-Wan hasn't actually seen just how bad Vader really is yet) and presumably goes a long way to convincing Obi-Wan to not tell Luke who his father really is.  I mean, there's a difference between, "Your father is the right hand man to the Emperor, he's really bad" and "Your father is a psychopath, child murderer who keeps trophies of his kills".


----------



## MGibster

Hussar said:


> I thought this was more of a trophy room.  These Jedi were on display.  And, being on display like this, really drives it home to Obi-Wan just how bad things really are.  It's one thing to kill your enemies, but, to turn them into hunting trophies is horrific.  And, wouldn't this be something of a trophy room for Vader?  This is how far Vader has fallen (as if we needed more - but, this is all pre-Episode IV so, Obi-Wan hasn't actually seen just how bad Vader really is yet) and presumably goes a long way to convincing Obi-Wan to not tell Luke who his father really is.  I mean, there's a difference between, "Your father is the right hand man to the Emperor, he's really bad" and "Your father is a psychopath, child murderer who keeps trophies of his kills".



I'm wondering if the Emperor set up that tomb just to mess with Vader.  Vader's a brute, don't get me wrong, but it seems odd for him to have a tomb filled with so many of his victims.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I have realized that all the problems Leia is giving Vader and the Empire now starting when she was just 10 years old gives new meaning to why the Death Star just happened to be near Alderaan while she was a prisoner on it. It was not chance, it was revenge.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Well I seem to just like every episode of this show better than the last. This one had lots of original movie homages, some strong visuals, a good storyline for Tala, and Obi-Wan got to finally do some cool Jedi stuff (I like the him being depowered angle, but given that this is probably our last major outing with this character I don't want him to be depowered for too much of it). Even Reva has mostly stopped annoying me.

And I almost was ready to complain that they were going back to the the tracking device plot well yet again, but given Leia's "They let us go, they're tracking us" (totally justified) paranoia in the original movie, I think the particular form of tracking is good character development.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

MGibster said:


> Their orders are pretty stupid. She gets results.



Now I'm imagining Darth Vader's voice saying: You are a loose cannon Reva. Surrender your lightsaber and badge at once!


----------



## Flamestrike

Hussar said:


> this is all pre-Episode IV so, Obi-Wan hasn't actually seen just how bad Vader really is yet




He watched a holo-vid of Vader massacring Jedi children in RoTS.

If I watched a video of my best friend murdering kids at the church we were raised in, I wouldn't need anymore evidence as to whether they're a bad dude or not.


----------



## Imaculata

I rewatched the first episode again with a girlfriend, and she too was laughing at how bad the Leia chase scene looked. Could they really not have made that a little better? 

But apart from minor nitpicks, and edgelord Reva, it was quite enjoyable. Ewan Mc Gregor is doing an excellent job, and the restraint in the use of his lightsaber and force powers is excellent. Plus the show just looks fantastic. Most importantly, it feels like Star Wars.

It almost makes me forget how bad the prequels were.


----------



## Zardnaar

Benjamin Olson said:


> Well I seem to just like every episode of this show better than the last. This one had lots of original movie homages, some strong visuals, a good storyline for Tala, and Obi-Wan got to finally do some cool Jedi stuff (I like the him being depowered angle, but given that this is probably our last major outing with this character I don't want him to be depowered for too much of it). Even Reva has mostly stopped annoying me.
> 
> And I almost was ready to complain that they were going back to the the tracking device plot well yet again, but given Leia's "They let us go, they're tracking us" (totally justified) paranoia in the original movie, I think the particular form of tracking is good character development.




 This. 

 Story was good this week, everyone improved character wise fun episode.

 Reva was also better this episode. Wife said the show is better than BoBF and I would agree.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MGibster said:


> I'm wondering if the Emperor set up that tomb just to mess with Vader.  Vader's a brute, don't get me wrong, but it seems odd for him to have a tomb filled with so many of his victims.



No, the "trophy" interpretation doesn't make sense. Vader is pragmatic, not sentimental. And you can't use it to intimidate your enemies if you keep it hidden. As I said earlier, the amber gives away the true reason for preserving those force users.


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> No, the "trophy" interpretation doesn't make sense. Vader is pragmatic, not sentimental. And you can't use it to intimidate your enemies if you keep it hidden. As I said earlier, the amber gives away the true reason for preserving those force users.



The lightsabers on display in the room where Reva confronts Tala are definitely trophies. The dead Jedi are, I think, a combo of trophy and part of Palpatine's future Force sensitive clone programme. I don't think they're still alive (e.g. in stasis) but preserving them like that means the Empire still has access to their midichlorian-rich DNA.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> The lightsabers on display in the room where Reva confronts Tala are definitely trophies.



Those are _organisational_ trophies, put where everyone can them to inspire the rank and file.

Not in a hidden room that no one sees.


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> Those are _organisational_ trophies, put where everyone can them to inspire the rank and file.
> 
> Not in a hidden room that no one sees.



Yes. I am agreeing with you.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> Those are _organisational_ trophies, put where everyone can them to inspire the rank and file.
> 
> Not in a hidden room that no one sees.



How is it a hidden room that nobody sees? Obi-wan finds it by following main corridors on the way to the interrogation rooms.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> How is it a hidden room that nobody sees? Obi-wan finds it by following main corridors on the way to the interrogation rooms.



Tala says it's hidden when she hacks the computers. That's what draw her attention to it. Obi-Wan was presumably guided by the Force. Or possibly Tala, it's not made clear how much she is doing to help him along his way.


----------



## Imaculata

Zardnaar said:


> Wife said the show is better than BoBF and I would agree.




Not a high bar.


----------



## BrokenTwin

Paul Farquhar said:


> No, the "trophy" interpretation doesn't make sense. Vader is pragmatic, not sentimental. And you can't use it to intimidate your enemies if you keep it hidden. As I said earlier, the amber gives away the true reason for preserving those force users.



Vader is the biggest drama queen in the series. Almost everything he does from the word go is (badly) trying to manage his traumas and seek a sense of control over his life. I can fully imagine him keeping a trophy room full of frozen/dead Jedi as a way to assert himself over that aspect of his past. And repeatedly exposing yourself to your traumas to keep the pain fresh and emotions powerful seems like a very Sith thing to do.


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> Tala says it's hidden when she hacks the computers. That's what draw her attention to it. Obi-Wan was presumably guided by the Force. Or possibly Tala, it's not made clear how much she is doing to help him along his way.



Yeah, Tala's assistance seems mostly limited to opening the underwater door then providing Obi-Wan with a distraction so he can free Leia. He seems to find his way to Leia (via the "trophy" room) on his own. I suppose Tala also gave him the code stick thing that let him access that restricted area too. (I was actually a bit surprised that her officer clearance was good enough to access that area, to be honest.)



BrokenTwin said:


> Vader is the biggest drama queen in the series. Almost everything he does from the word go is (badly) trying to manage his traumas and seek a sense of control over his life. I can fully imagine him keeping a trophy room full of frozen/dead Jedi as a way to assert himself over that aspect of his past. And repeatedly exposing yourself to your traumas to keep the pain fresh and emotions powerful seems like a very Sith thing to do.



While I agree, I think if the Jedi corpses are anyone's trophies, they're the inquisitors', not Vader's. Fortress Inquisitorius isn't Vader's castle, even if they do look similar. I would think he would keep his personal trophies closer to home, in his own basement, not his minions' basement. (The father of one of my childhood friends was a bow hunter, and he kept his taxidermied trophies in the basement, out of sight from polite company. We used to call it the basement of death.)


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> I was actually a bit surprised that her officer clearance was good enough to access that area, to be honest.



Rogue (Spy): expertise in Slicing and Deception.


pukunui said:


> While I agree, I think if the Jedi corpses are anyone's trophies, they're the inquisitors', not Vader's. Fortress Inquisitorius isn't Vader's castle, even if they do look similar.



Exposing trauma is why Vader lives on Mustafar. But as Anakin, his quarters were generally cluttered with construction projects, not souvenirs. and Vader doesn't bring luggage with him when he is aboard star destroyers. Unlike Kylo Ren.


----------



## bloodtide

S1E4

Talla just lands at Darth Castle?  Because she has some codes?  Some how it should not be that easy....

And guess on imperials listen for random transmissions and pick up the two of them talking

It's a bit odd that Reva thinks a 10 year old knows "so much" about everything.

Why is Reva SO SURE Ben is dead?  He got burned a bit and then GOT AWAY......so why does she jump to "oh he is dead"

The little girl hand cuffs are so cute.....as if Leia could even hurt a fly

And even odder that Leia is "so strong" she can resist mind scans

Sure is CONVENIENT Darth Vader just decides to hang out in space

Sure is nice to see Evil Women in the Empire and Star Wars

Guess Star Wars does not have Transparent Aluminum..... 

Guess Broken Ben had no escape plan?


So....do the Rebels fly speeders like planes, is that right?  I thought speeders had to stay close to the ground?


And how do a couple of old speeders get so close to Darth Castle?  The Empire has radar or such, right?

And how does the sewage ship get on to Planet Darth for that matter?  Do they have imperial sewage codes

And again I ask.....Vaders hands are all machine, right?  So how does he use and shape the Force through them?


----------



## MarkB

bloodtide said:


> Why is Reva SO SURE Ben is dead?  He got burned a bit and then GOT AWAY......so why does she jump to "oh he is dead"



She's doing this thing that evil villains sometimes do that's called lying.


----------



## trappedslider

MarkB said:


> She's doing this thing that evil villains sometimes do that's called lying.



why do you respond to the hate watcher..i mean I'm honestly starting to slide towards his postings being satire and tbh I've love to see how he takes The Boys lol


----------



## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> why do you respond to the hate watcher..



Because it's more polite than responding to someone who's responding to him purely to comment on him.


----------



## Zardnaar

MarkB said:


> She's doing this thing that evil villains sometimes do that's called lying.




 Yeah Reva was a lot better villain episode 4.


----------



## Arilyn

Enjoyed this episode. Lightsabers, stirring Star Wars music and incompetent stormtroopers!


----------



## South by Southwest

Arilyn said:


> ...and *incompetent stormtroopers!*



Natch.


----------



## Marc Radle

trappedslider said:


> why do you respond to the hate watcher..i mean I'm honestly starting to slide towards his postings being satire and tbh I've love to see how he takes The Boys lol



The funny thing is you can just tell that he thinks he’s being really clever and witty


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Marc Radle said:


> The funny thing is you can just tell that he thinks he’s being really clever and witty




Clearly some of these trolls must think they are on Twitter or 4chan.   lol


----------



## trappedslider

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Clearly some of these trolls must think they are on Twitter or 4chan.   lol



I think his posting in the D&D section has allowed him to be around for awhile, as to why he isn't banned from discussions I got nothing lol


----------



## Maxperson

MGibster said:


> Jesus, is that how people view the character?  To me, she was your standard evil user of the Force.  It didn't occur to me that she was what anyone thought of as a stereotype.  That's just so unfair to Ingram Moses.



This.


----------



## Maxperson

So my wife and I just got caught up on this last episode.  I liked it, but we laughed a lot at yet more Stormtrooper incompetence.  Especially the part where the two are in the dark room with Leia and a lightsaber pops into view and cuts one down, then the other one who has no clue where the Jedi is says, "You can't get out." as if he had Obi Wan right where he wanted him.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Because it's more polite than responding to someone who's responding to him purely to comment on him.



You can ignore trolls without being rude.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> You can ignore trolls without being rude.



Yes, that's what I said.


----------



## Waller

Marc Radle said:


> The funny thing is you can just tell that he thinks he’s being really clever and witty



The old adage "don't feed the trolls" is around for a reason. I'm sure he's enjoying everybody talking about him.


----------



## Dioltach

I've finally realised what bugged me about the Grand Inquisitor: he's the spitting image of Kryten from Red Dwarf.


----------



## Morrus

Yeah I thought their costumes looked like that too.


----------



## Dioltach

Costumes, ears, foreheads.


----------



## MarkB

Yeah, he has the same basic design and costume as his Rebels version, but just can't pull off that same air of menace. And why is he beige?


----------



## pukunui

While I know that Rebels had a specific elongated aesthetic design, the previous Pauans we've seen in live action (in _Revenge of the Sith_) have all had somewhat elongated heads as well, which makes Rupert Friend's rendition of the Grand Inquisitor look off because of his round head.

They could have made Rupert look more like this:





As an aside, I expect that the showrunners are keeping the Grand Inquisitor out of the way so he doesn't overshadow/overcomplicate Reva as the main antagonist, but also, I expect that they're playing it that Vader is taking advantage of Reva's ambition and is keeping the Grand Inquisitor's survival a secret from her so that he can dangle the carrot of false hope that she might be able to take his place. As soon as her usefulness in hunting Obi-Wan comes to an end, Vader will cast her aside.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> As an aside, I expect that the showrunners are keeping the Grand Inquisitor out of the way so he doesn't overshadow/overcomplicate Reva as the main antagonist, but also, I expect that they're playing it that Vader is taking advantage of Reva's ambition and is keeping the Grand Inquisitor's survival a secret from her so that he can dangle the carrot of false hope that she might be able to take his place. As soon as her usefulness in hunting Obi-Wan comes to an end, Vader will cast her aside.




Or something as simple as Vader sending him off on a different hunt, once he recovered from the wound, along with the other 7 Brothers and Sisters who have not (yet) appeared in the show. Who knows how many years it took them to track down Maul before they all appeared in Rebels.

As for casting Reva aside, there are already talks of her getting her own show, but I don't know how official any of that is at this point.


----------



## pukunui

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Or something as simple as Vader sending him off on a different hunt, once he recovered from the wound, along with the other 7 Brothers and Sisters who have not (yet) appeared in the show. Who knows how many years it took them to track down Maul before they all appeared in Rebels.
> 
> As for casting Reva aside, there are already talks of her getting her own show, but I don't know how official any of that is at this point.



Happy to be proven wrong! That was just my current theory.


----------



## Mannahnin

MarkB said:


> Yeah, he has the same basic design and costume as his Rebels version, but just can't pull off that same air of menace. And why is he beige?



He's not really beige, though, right?  He's unnaturally paler-than-pale caucasian.  Like Vader under his helmet from RotJ.  The first scene in episode 2 with him condescending to Reva it's obvious that he's whiter than white, and that seemed part of the subtext.

I think he looks a little beige in that photo you picked just because he's on Tatooine and there's a bunch of tan/sandy light around him.


----------



## MarkB

Mannahnin said:


> He's not really beige, though, right?  He's unnaturally paler-than-pale caucasian.  Like Vader under his helmet from RotJ.  The first scene in episode 2 with him condescending to Reva it's obvious that he's whiter than white, and that seemed part of the subtext.
> 
> I think he looks a little beige in that photo you picked just because he's on Tatooine and there's a bunch of tan/sandy light around him.



I didn't post that photo. But I can't find an image of the live-action Grand Inquisitor that doesn't have the yellowish tinge to his skin. It's very distinct from completely colourless grey-white of the Rebels version.


----------



## delericho

pukunui said:


> As an aside, I expect that the showrunners are keeping the Grand Inquisitor out of the way so he doesn't overshadow/overcomplicate Reva as the main antagonist, but also, I expect that they're playing it that Vader is taking advantage of Reva's ambition and is keeping the Grand Inquisitor's survival a secret...



Any reason to think that he did actually survive? After all, we know the Star Wars universe has cloning technology this version of it doesn't have any difficulties with cloning force users...


----------



## pukunui

delericho said:


> Any reason to think that he did actually survive? After all, we know the Star Wars universe has cloning technology this version of it doesn't have any difficulties with cloning force users...



They do have difficulty cloning Force users. That’s a big plot point from Ep 9 that they’ve been building up through the various shows now. 

Palps has spent years trying. Snoke was his best attempt. But he’s still had to settle for what seems to be an undead body (but is probably just a badly decaying clone body because his original body would have been vaporized).

So no, I don’t think the Grand Inquisitor in Rebels is a clone. He’s either still alive, or someone at LucasFilm has messed up badly.


----------



## pukunui

Ha! I was right! Vader was using Reva and hiding the Grand Inquisitor’s survival from her.

And we were right about Reva being that youngling from the beginning.

That ending is ominous. Young Luke is in danger!

It was nice to see Hayden’s face again, even if the de-aging tech didn’t quite work.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> And we were right about Reva being that youngling from the beginning.



The laws of narattivium are inescapable...


----------



## pukunui

They also explained how Reva knew Vader was Anakin and had Obi-Wan state that he would’ve kept that knowledge secret.

What I’m not sure about is what Reva intends to do with her newfound knowledge. She’s not just going to tell Vader he’s got a child. But I can’t really see why she’d want to harm Luke herself. I’m curious to see what happens next.

Other thoughts:
*That purge trooper went down a little too easily but then he wasn’t armed with batons or staff, just a blaster.

*Obi-Wan did indeed school Anakin one more time, just not with a lightsaber.

*I’m not sure how they do it, but somehow they always manage to make the “death” of a droid an emotional experience.

*Vader is really strong with the Force! We’ve never seen him do that before in live action! I wasn’t expecting that switcheroo with the transports.

So last episode will be fixing the hyperdrive so they can escape from Vader, taking Leia back to Alderaan, then getting Obi-Wan back to Tatooine to protect Luke.


----------



## Tonguez

Reva backstory confirmed
Stormtroopers have both bad aim and apparently bad hearing too
and yeah abdominal wounds are apparently only a minor inconvinience


----------



## Davies

Someone finally used a thermal detonator for something other than a bluff.


----------



## Davies

pukunui said:


> What I’m not sure about is what Reva intends to do with her newfound knowledge. She’s not just going to tell Vader he’s got a child. But I can’t really see why she’d want to harm Luke herself.



Revenge on Vader and Obi-wan, who've both used her and discarded her.

Also, she's a Sith. They're just generally in favor of harming people.


----------



## Ryujin

Tonguez said:


> Reva backstory confirmed
> Stormtroopers have both bad aim and apparently bad hearing too
> and yeah abdominal wounds are apparently only a minor inconvinience



Have you ever tried to hear anything while wearing a helmet? 

In BoBF they replaced Fennec's entire mid-section with cyber, in something akin to a tattoo parlour, so yes, I'd say it's a minor inconvenience.


----------



## pukunui

Davies said:


> Revenge on Vader and Obi-wan, who've both used her and discarded her.



By killing Luke? Yeah, I guess.



Davies said:


> Also, she's a Sith. They're just generally in favor of harming people.



She isn’t a Sith. Only Palpatine and Vader are. The rest are just dark side Force users.


----------



## wicked cool

another mixed bag episode
That lightsaber fight was really bad. enjoyed the crushing of the ship and the flashbacks
the acting is really bad at times again.


----------



## Flamestrike

Davies said:


> Also, she's a Sith.




No, she's not. Dark sider, but not a Sith.


----------



## MarkB

The ever-flexible Inquisitor lightsabers get a new trick - they can be split in two if you fancy dual wielding. Those things are ridiculous.


----------



## BrokenTwin

I always wondered why the Sith keep using their boring basic lightsabers when they're outfitting their elite mooks with swiss army equivalents. It spins, it splits, it actually has a hand guard!

Edit: Removed colorful language.


----------



## South by Southwest

wicked cool said:


> another mixed bag episode



Totes.


wicked cool said:


> That lightsaber fight was really bad. enjoyed the crushing of the ship and the flashbacks





Spoiler: SPOILERS



One of my first quarrels was with the flashbacks: the de-aging of McGregor and Christensen was, to my eye, as bad as Tarkin's in _Rogue One_. _Book of Boba Fett_ already proved they can do the de-aging properly via the latest deep fake tech, but this episode just did not deliver on that at all. This wasn't just, _"Hey, the valley is uncanny again."_ This was, _"Who the <bleep> is that?? Wait!--that's supposed to be *Anakin**?!* What, were they drunk when they did this CG???"_ Honestly, I still wonder if perhaps they were.





wicked cool said:


> the acting is really bad at times again.



I didn't see much that I minded in the acting work; my quarrel is with the writers this time. 



Spoiler: MORE SPOILERS



They pulled Reva's motivation-switcheroo reveal and the Grand Inquisitor and Vader's double-cross out of thin air with little more than a, _"So yeah, that happened."_ The actors were fine to my eye; the writers, though, were drunk again.



I give it a B- or maybe a B, which is disappointing coming after that last episode (a solid A).


----------



## Morrus

Shame nobody thought to use a grenade earlier. That battle would have been over much quicker.


----------



## South by Southwest

Morrus said:


> Shame nobody thought to use a grenade earlier. That battle would have been over much quicker.


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> Shame nobody thought to use a grenade earlier. That battle would have been over much quicker.



But then there would have been no rising tension, nor Valiant Sacrifice©.


----------



## Jmarso

BrokenTwin said:


> I always wondered why the Sith keep using their boring basic lightsabers when they're outfitting their elite mooks with swiss army equivalents. It spins, it splits, it actually has a hand guard!



I think Vader answered that question rather definitively this week. Sith Lords rarely need the weapons they do carry.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> She isn’t a Sith. Only Palpatine and Vader are. The rest are just dark side Force users.




Back during the days of the Old Republic, there was an entire planet of Sith. That "there can only be two" thing used to refer to the Sith Lord and his/her apprentice, not the Sith in general. So just like you can have thousands of Jedi, you can have thousands of Sith.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Tonguez said:


> and yeah abdominal wounds are apparently only a minor inconvinience




Sith, and dark siders in general, just seem to be very hard to kill and keep dead. Something about the dark side seems to sustain them, while the light side users seem to be more willing to let go when near death.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

wicked cool said:


> the acting is really bad at times again.




It is Star Wars, not Shakespeare. It would not be proper sci-fi without some bad/cheesy acting.   lol


----------



## Tonguez

South by Southwest said:


> Totes.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: SPOILERS
> 
> 
> 
> One of my first quarrels was with the flashbacks: the de-aging of McGregor and Christensen was, to my eye, as bad as Tarkin's in _Rogue One_. _Book of Boba Fett_ already proved they can do the de-aging properly via the latest deep fake tech, but this episode just did not deliver on that at all. This wasn't just, _"Hey, the valley is uncanny again."_ This was, _"Who the <bleep> is that?? Wait!--that's supposed to be *Anakin**?!* What, were they drunk when they did this CG???"_ Honestly, I still wonder if perhaps they were.




yeah I didnt recognize him initially either, it was certainly uncanny bad cgi at work - not sure why they didnt just reuse the movie footage


----------



## pukunui

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Back during the days of the Old Republic, there was an entire planet of Sith. That "there can only be two" thing used to refer to the Sith Lord and his/her apprentice, not the Sith in general. So just like you can have thousands of Jedi, you can have thousands of Sith.



Yes, but the Inquisitors are not Sith. They have been kept in the dark, so to speak. Once upon a time there were more, but at this point in the timeline, there are only two.



Tonguez said:


> yeah I didnt recognize him initially either, it was certainly uncanny bad cgi at work - not sure why they didnt just reuse the movie footage



I recognized it was Hayden straight away. They just didn’t do a good job scrubbing his wrinkles away. (As an aside, Hayden is less than a month younger than me.)

Also, this wasn’t a scene from the movies, and there isn’t really a comparable one they could have used in its place.


----------



## Morrus

Tonguez said:


> yeah I didnt recognize him initially either,



What?


----------



## Nikosandros

Morrus said:


> What?



Yeah, I share your surprise. It was clearly him...


----------



## Hussar

Yeah, the de-aging thing didn't faze me too much.  The ridiculous hairstyle did.    I kinda forgot how goofy they made Anakin look.


----------



## MGibster

Hussar said:


> Yeah, the de-aging thing didn't faze me too much. The ridiculous hairstyle did.  I kinda forgot how goofy they made Anakin look.



A lot of us cringe at the goofy haircuts we thought were so cool when we were younger.


----------



## Marc Radle

I’m confused by the de-aging complaints as well.  It was clearly him and honestly I thought everything looked quite good.

Overall I liked the episode a lot and look forward to the last one next week.

I thought Vader was particularly awesome this episode!


----------



## MoonSong

Marc Radle said:


> I’m confused by the de-aging complaints as well.  It was clearly him and honestly I thought everything looked quite good.
> 
> Overall I liked the episode a lot and look forward to the last one next week.
> 
> I thought Vader was particularly awesome this episode!



It wasn't bad in a vacuum, but Anakin looked like Ep III Anakin with his EP II haircut. It was odd.


----------



## Warpiglet-7

Vader was kewl.  Very kewl.


----------



## Sacrosanct

I guess between then and episode IV-VI, Vader lost a whole lot of power.


----------



## Mallus

I kinda want a Reva series now. I thought this last episode was great. Really put the opera in space opera (where ‘opera” = Wagner).


----------



## pukunui

MoonSong said:


> It wasn't bad in a vacuum, but Anakin looked like Ep III Anakin with his EP II haircut. It was odd.



Maybe that scene took place some time between the two episodes.



Sacrosanct said:


> I guess between then and episode IV-VI, Vader lost a whole lot of power.



Well, I guess he got prematurely old too, just like Obi-Wan, who goes from looking like 51 yo Ewan to 63 yo Alec in a span of 9 years.


----------



## Hussar

It is nice to see Vader be the reason he was terrifying though. 

In the original series, he’s supposed to be this terrifying figure and he never really does anything. 

Here we see why people are actually mind buggereringly scared when Vader comes. 

Otherwise, why didn’t Yoda just kick his ass in the couple of decades between the end of Ep 3 and the beginning of RotJ?

We know that Yoda could move space ships. And defeat armies on his own. 

So why not just ambush Vader some time and bump him off?

Well because Vader is as powerful as Yoda.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Yoda said that size matters not. You can see that with Vader's force vs spaceship.

I honestly don't understand many complaints. This is about as good as Star Wars gets. (You can take that either way, but in this case I really like it!)


----------



## Marc Radle

I honestly think some people just like to complain …


----------



## Sacrosanct

FitzTheRuke said:


> Yoda said that size matters not. You can see that with Vader's force vs spaceship.
> 
> I honestly don't understand many complaints. This is about as good as Star Wars gets. (You can take that either way, but in this case I really like it!)



Oh, I'm not complaining. I enjoy the show. Taking it for what it is and not too seriously. Just making an observation is all.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

This episode did the astonishing double trick of making me finally enjoy Reva a little, while at the same time pleasing the part of me that found her annoying by having Vader utterly wipe the floor with her.

I'm glad that Hayden Christiansen finally got something real to do in the series. I liked the duel flashback. Character development and exposition through swordplay is rarely perfect, but compared to the "I have the high ground" incident this did the job very well indeed. In fact, more generally this feels like the prequels I wish we had gotten.

My only real complaint was that little Leia was shuttered off dealing with a tech problem the whole episode. This meant not only plot reliance on the mystical Skywalker tech-prodigy gene but also mostly side-lining one of the best characters. Maybe it was just that they didn't really come up with much material for her tech-repair subplot.



FitzTheRuke said:


> Yoda said that size matters not. You can see that with Vader's force vs spaceship.
> 
> I honestly don't understand many complaints. This is about as good as Star Wars gets. (You can take that either way, but in this case I really like it!)





Marc Radle said:


> I honestly think some people just like to complain …




Ultimately with Star Wars there are always things that don't really make sense. When you're completely enjoying ride you don't care that, say, an AT-AT is about the worst design you could devise for something to fulfill it's function (can only fire straight ahead, slow to turn, big weakness to tripping, presumably requires huge amounts of level terrain to function at all). When you're not particularly enjoying it there's always plenty to complain about, to be pointed at to prove that whatever Star Wars you just watched is the worst episode ever. When you're partially enjoying the ride there is always something that irritates you a little that you wish had not been there or been more consistent, or whatever and you temper your enjoyment with complaints.

Personally I usually fall in between the enjoying the ride and partially enjoying the ride camps with Star Wars these days. This particular series I really enjoy, but I can certainly see plenty to complain about if I was enjoying it less. 

Vader playing the long game with Reva really makes no sense (why not just employ people who don't want to kill you?), but the "did you really think I didn't know what you were" was such a perfect James Earl Jones delivery of such a perfect Vader line that I just didn't care. The double freighter fake-out made no sense (rather than spend time planning for the eventuality that Darth Vader arrives right as you take-off, just get out of there 5 seconds quicker!) and involved Vader having hitherto undemonstrated rip-a-ship-out-of-the-sky force ability, but damned if it wasn't cool, and a delightful subversion of my expectations given the visual homage to the times in the original series when the Millennium Falcon gets away right as he arrives. The nit-picking part of my brain was able to just enjoy the ride. Other people's mileage will vary.

Star Wars just seems to vary a lot with the eye of the beholder. 

As, incidentally, do de-aging effects and the like. I don't even know what people are complaining about here, but at the same time I seem to constantly be directed to supposedly impressive "deep-fake" pictures that just look like the most slap-shod digital editing to me.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Morrus said:


> Shame nobody thought to use a grenade earlier. That battle would have been over much quicker.



Look, there is a certain etiquette to combat in the Star Wars universe. Thermal Detonators are only to be used suicidally. To do otherwise would be unsporting.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Benjamin Olson said:


> Vader playing the long game with Reva really makes no sense (why not just employ people who don't want to kill you?)




As every Sith apprentice wants to kill the Master and take over, all Dark Force users would want to kill the apprentice and take their spot.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> As every Sith apprentice wants to kill the Master and take over, all Dark Force users would want to kill the apprentice and take their spot.



Fair point. Sith having master-apprentice relationships kind of doesn't make sense either. Doesn't bother me though.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

BrokenTwin said:


> I always wondered why the Sith keep using their boring basic lightsabers when they're outfitting their elite mooks with swiss army equivalents. It spins, it splits, it actually has a hand guard!
> 
> Edit: Removed colorful language.



The Inquisitor lightsabre compensates for inferior skill.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Benjamin Olson said:


> Look, there is a certain etiquette to combat in the Star Wars universe. Thermal Detonators are only to be used suicidally. To do otherwise would be unsporting.



Who would invent a grenade that has a blast radius greater than you could throw it?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

I've seen a few ropy FX in this show, but given that I love old Doctor Who with wobbly cardboard sets and rubber suit monsters I'm inclined to give it a free pass.


----------



## Flamestrike

Sacrosanct said:


> I guess between then and episode IV-VI, Vader lost a whole lot of power.




Move Object

He's roughly 17th level there, so a +16 to Use the Force (+the best result of 3 x d8's spending a force point). He likely rolls a 33 or so on average.

If he was prepared to spend a Destiny Point (and let's face it, he was) its only a DC 20 Use the Force check to grapple a (Colossal) space transport, but because its moving, he's looking at an opposed roll vs its Grapple bonus (roughly +40, going by other ships of that size and type) so that's a little more problematic for the Dark Lord.

If he succeeds (with the Destiny Point usage) its 16d6 damage as well.

He rolled well and the DM rolled poorly.


----------



## Flamestrike

Paul Farquhar said:


> Who would invent a grenade that has a blast radius greater than you could throw it?




An Evil Empire with countless blindly loyal but woefully inaccurate troops?


----------



## Mannahnin

pukunui said:


> I recognized it was Hayden straight away. They just didn’t do a good job scrubbing his wrinkles away. (As an aside, Hayden is less than a month younger than me.)



I don't think it was the wrinkles, but more the wider/more filled-out shape of his face and head.  In the prequel movies he still had that adolescent "lightness" a person has before their body fills out at maturity.


----------



## Jmarso

Paul Farquhar said:


> Who would invent a grenade that has a blast radius greater than you could throw it?



Farther than _wh_o can throw it? A wookie, or a human? I'll bet it has an adjustable blast setting, as well.


----------



## BrokenTwin

Paul Farquhar said:


> The Inquisitor lightsabre compensates for inferior skill.



That may be true, but it's also an objectively superior tool. A master swordsman might be more effective with a wooden sword than an apprentice would be with a metal sword, but that doesn't mean that the swordsman would reach for the wooden sword when the metal one is readily available. The Jedi I can 100% believe using an objectively inferior tool because of tradition reasons, but the "grab any advantage possible" Sith? Eh, not so much.
But, ultimately, Star Wars runs on rule of cool, and it's by far not my biggest nitpick with the series.


----------



## ko6ux

Paul Farquhar said:


> Who would invent a grenade that has a blast radius greater than you could throw it?




People who also invented a grenade launcher.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

BrokenTwin said:


> That may be true, but it's also an objectively superior tool. A master swordsman might be more effective with a wooden sword than an apprentice would be with a metal sword, but that doesn't mean that the swordsman would reach for the wooden sword when the metal one is readily available. The Jedi I can 100% believe using an objectively inferior tool because of tradition reasons, but the "grab any advantage possible" Sith? Eh, not so much.
> But, ultimately, Star Wars runs on rule of cool, and it's by far not my biggest nitpick with the series.



A metal sword might always be better than a wooden sword, but is supa-motorized-spinny-double-sword always better than a straightforward metal sword?


----------



## Ryujin

Paul Farquhar said:


> A metal sword might always be better than a wooden sword, but is supa-motorized-spinny-double-sword always better than a straightforward metal sword?



I'd say that a supa-motorized-spinny-double-sword is more dangerous to the wielder, than to the enemy. That's why I've never used the double-weapon cheese for any of my characters in D&D.


----------



## Mannahnin

Double weapons are always silly; unless it's something blunt like a quarterstaff where you can reasonably handle the ends and not cut yourself open if you accidentally bonk your shin or something.  And people still give themselves concussions and fractures training with those.

That being said, Ray Park was so amazing that he made it look viable.  At least for a world class martial artists with psychic powers.


----------



## BrokenTwin

Oh, double-bladed weapons are completely ridiculous. But they appeal to the giddy child part of my brain.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> I'd say that a supa-motorized-spinny-double-sword is more dangerous to the wielder, than to the enemy. That's why I've never used the double-weapon cheese for any of my characters in D&D.






Mannahnin said:


> Double weapons are always silly; unless it's something blunt like a quarterstaff where you can reasonably handle the ends and not cut yourself open if you accidentally bonk your shin or something.
> 
> That being said, Ray Park was so amazing that he made it look viable.  At least for a world class martial artists with psychic powers.



That might be why it has a handle with a guard: so a numpty can just hold it in front of themselves and spin it, rather than actually swing it and risk damaging themselves. When used by more skilled practitioners they often seem to just have one blade on and use it like a conventional lightsabre.


----------



## Mannahnin

Paul Farquhar said:


> That might be why it has a handle with a guard: so a numpty can just hold it in front of themselves and spin it, rather than actually swing it and risk damaging themselves.



Maybe.  In practice even the "hold it in front of you and spin it" plan is going to require tilting and angling it against an opponent who's actually fighting you, and then you run into the same issue of hitting yourself.



Paul Farquhar said:


> When used by more skilled practitioners they often seem to just have one blade on and use it like a conventional lightsabre.



Probably because every actor who's got any real life sword skills (except for extraordinary flukes like Ray Park) knows how absurd and contrary to all their training a double sword is.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Mannahnin said:


> Maybe. In practice even the "hold it in front of you and spin it" plan is going to require tilting and angling it against an opponent who's actually fighting you, and then you run into the same issue of hitting yourself.



It's not designed for use against someone who is actually fighting you, it's designed to intimidate.


Mannahnin said:


> Probably because every actor who's got any real life sword skills (except for extraordinary flukes like Ray Park) knows how absurd and contrary to all their training a double sword is.



The fight co-ordinators certainly do.


----------



## Ryujin

Mannahnin said:


> Maybe.  In practice even the "hold it in front of you and spin it" plan is going to require tilting and angling it against an opponent who's actually fighting you, and then you run into the same issue of hitting yourself.
> 
> 
> Probably because every actor who's got any real life sword skills (except for extraordinary flukes like Ray Park) knows how absurd and contrary to all their training a double sword is.





Paul Farquhar said:


> That might be why it has a handle with a guard: so a numpty can just hold it in front of themselves and spin it, rather than actually swing it and risk damaging themselves. When used by more skilled practitioners they often seem to just have one blade on and use it like a conventional lightsabre.



Inquisitor: < Starts twirly lightsabre >
Classically Trained Swordsman: Are you serious? Are you serious right now?
Inquisitor: < Grins in evil >
Classically trained Swordsman: < Casually removed fingers from Inquisitor's sword hand >


----------



## Ryujin

Ryujin said:


> Inquisitor: < Starts twirly lightsabre >
> Classically Trained Swordsman: Are you serious? Are you serious right now?
> Inquisitor: < Grins in evil >
> Classically trained Swordsman: < Casually removed fingers from Inquisitor's sword hand >



For rapier users replace the last line with, "Stabs Inquisitor through the heart, through the gaping hole it their guard."


----------



## Mannahnin

Ryujin said:


> For rapier users replace the last line with, "Stabs Inquisitor through the heart, through the gaping hole it their guard."



I don't want that spinny circle of death falling on me while I'm in full lunge!


----------



## Ryujin

Mannahnin said:


> I don't want that spinny circle of death falling on me while I'm in full lunge!



Recovery is key, since a dying opponent doesn't necessarily die _right that second_


----------



## Mannahnin

Ryujin said:


> Recovery is key, since a dying opponent doesn't necessarily die _right that second_



Yeah, but you know a Star Wars villain stabbed through the heart is going to do that dramatic fold-in-on-themselves-and-clutch-at-the-blade pose.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Mannahnin said:


> Yeah, but you know a Star Wars villain stabbed through the heart is going to do that dramatic fold-in-on-themselves-and-clutch-at-the-blade pose.




Or do the movie version of the Lancelot vs Mordred fight, where Lancelot (or was it Arthur?) is impaled on the spear, but pulls himself down the spear shaft to mortally stab Mordred with a sword. I think similar has been done, or attempted, by the dying villain in various movies as well.


----------



## Ryujin

Mannahnin said:


> Yeah, but you know a Star Wars villain stabbed through the heart is going to do that dramatic fold-in-on-themselves-and-clutch-at-the-blade pose.



Probably. Let go. Dead man walking.


----------



## Imaculata

An enjoyable episode. I think this might be the first time in live action, that we see the force being used to pull a spaceship out of the sky. I remember first seeing it in The Force Unleashed.

It was fun seeing Vader wipe the floor with Reva with just force powers alone. They kind of copied Pai Mei from Kill Bill Vol. 2 there with those dodges.

I was a little bit disappointed that the invasion of the planet didn't involve cool vehicles of some kind. Also, the plot point of them having only a few hours to evacuate confused me. Surely by the time a Star Destroyer arrives at a planet, it can simply shoot down any ship that tries to leave said planet?

I did enjoy the cuts between young Anakin and Vader. And I thought the de-aging was pretty well done. Sure, you can still tell by the body and head size, that something is off. But to me, it wasn't as jarring as full CGI Tarkin in Rogue One. (Honestly, why didn't they just recast Tarkin as Charles Dance?)

I agree that side lining little Leia for most of the episode, is a bit sloppy. They could have done more with her evil flying droid than what they did.

Reva was pretty enjoyable in this episode. I'm not sure if I'd want to see a full Reva show though.


----------



## Ryujin

Imaculata said:


> An enjoyable episode. I think this might be the first time in live action, that we see the force being used to pull a spaceship out of the sky. I remember first seeing it in The Force Unleashed.
> 
> It was fun seeing Vader wipe the floor with Reva with just force powers alone. They kind of copied Pai Mei from Kill Bill Vol. 2 there with those dodges.
> 
> I was a little bit disappointed that the invasion of the planet didn't involve cool vehicles of some kind. Also, the plot point of them having only a few hours to evacuate confused me. Surely by the time a Star Destroyer arrives at a planet, it can simply shoot down any ship that tries to leave said planet?
> 
> I did enjoy the cuts between young Anakin and Vader. And I thought the de-aging was pretty well done. Sure, you can still tell by the body and head size, that something is off. But to me, it wasn't as jarring as full CGI Tarkin in Rogue One. (Honestly, why didn't they just recast Tarkin as Charles Dance?)
> 
> I agree that side lining little Leia for most of the episode, is a bit sloppy. They could have done more with her evil flying droid than what they did.
> 
> Reva was pretty enjoyable in this episode. I'm not sure if I'd want to see a full Reva show though.



I think that Reva might work in a buddy cop - good cop/bad cop sort of series. The question is who to have her play off of?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Imaculata said:


> Also, the plot point of them having only a few hours to evacuate confused me. Surely by the time a Star Destroyer arrives at a planet, it can simply shoot down any ship that tries to leave said planet?




In this case, an escaping ship had a high chance of having Obi-wan on board, so no shooting it down without Vader specifically saying so, since he wanted to deal with Obi-wan personally.


----------



## MarkB

Imaculata said:


> An enjoyable episode. I think this might be the first time in live action, that we see the force being used to pull a spaceship out of the sky. I remember first seeing it in The Force Unleashed.
> 
> It was fun seeing Vader wipe the floor with Reva with just force powers alone. They kind of copied Pai Mei from Kill Bill Vol. 2 there with those dodges.
> 
> I was a little bit disappointed that the invasion of the planet didn't involve cool vehicles of some kind. Also, the plot point of them having only a few hours to evacuate confused me. Surely by the time a Star Destroyer arrives at a planet, it can simply shoot down any ship that tries to leave said planet?
> 
> I did enjoy the cuts between young Anakin and Vader. And I thought the de-aging was pretty well done. Sure, you can still tell by the body and head size, that something is off. But to me, it wasn't as jarring as full CGI Tarkin in Rogue One. (Honestly, why didn't they just recast Tarkin as Charles Dance?)
> 
> I agree that side lining little Leia for most of the episode, is a bit sloppy. They could have done more with her evil flying droid than what they did.
> 
> Reva was pretty enjoyable in this episode. I'm not sure if I'd want to see a full Reva show though.



One star destroyer probably isn't enough to maintain a blockade from orbit. But the whole ground assault seemed like a really inefficient option. We know canonically from Rogue One that star destroyers have no trouble operating in atmosphere, so Vader could have simply parked directly above the hangar bay and ordered tractor beams readied in case anyone was foolish enough to call his bluff by trying to fly out past point-blank turbolasers.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

The Darth Maul double lightsaber is not actually as ridiculous as it might seem. The long handle makes it relatively viable for a skilled user to safely use. While the second blade introduces major limitations, there are also situations in which it would allow a very quick and difficult to block follow up strike with the opposite end from what they just blocked, and it also has some utility in occupying a larger space to offend multiple opponents. Key to the overall utility, however, is that when the second blade is not advantageous to have you *turn it off*.

Remember a key difference between a lightsaber and a real world sword is that the blade only appears when you are using it. Part of the reason it makes no sense for a real world sword is that most swords were sidearms and/or non-battlefield weapons, favored as versatile weapons that were much more convenient to carry. All that's out if you put a second blade on it.

When real people did want an impractical-for-regular-carry sword to offend multiple opponents on a battlefield they tended to go with very large single blades such as a greatsword, which also limits motion (the ground is in the way of a lot of moves you would use with a smaller two-handed sword) and requires a very-specific move set to use effectively, but which has advantages in reach and fighting multiple opponents. It's not clear why there are not "great-lightsabers", but maybe they are technologically impossible. If so the double-bladed saber fills some of the same niche.

The inquisitor blade, however, is just dumb. Even in non-spinning mode it lacks a long enough handle to use two-blades effectively even in many of the limited ways that you could. Then it has spinning mode, which basically makes it impossible to really aim the blade at your opponent at all. I can imagine spinning mode might have some utility to basically turn the whole thing into a shield against blaster fire, or generally as a defensive function, but it seems to be presented as some sort of super-offensive mode and I appreciated seeing Darth Vader defeat it effortlessly.


----------



## Imaculata

No doubt this show has a huge budget, but is it big enough to pull off some kind of Game of Thrones level battle?

It would have been incredible to have a bunch of AT ST's attack the base, and not just another shoot out with Stormtroopers in a hallway.


----------



## MarkB

Imaculata said:


> No doubt this show has a huge budget, but is it big enough to pull off some kind of Game of Thrones level battle?



Is it comparable to the budget for The Mandalorian? If so, the krayt dragon battle says "yes."


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Imaculata said:


> I agree that side lining little Leia for most of the episode, is a bit sloppy. They could have done more with her evil flying droid than what they did.



I was especially disappointed that they didn't give her a little more of a character moment in discovering she had been tracked (and her droid had been switched to evil-mode) by the empire because in the original movie, she is the one worried they are being tracked by the empire, when they are. It would have made this plot retread feel more like a cool character development thing rather than a plot retread.


----------



## Hussar

Paul Farquhar said:


> Who would invent a grenade that has a blast radius greater than you could throw it?



Is this a serious question?

 Because, right now, grenades have a blast radius MUCH farther than you can throw them.  There's a reason you have to stand behind something to throw a grenade.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

MarkB said:


> One star destroyer probably isn't enough to maintain a blockade from orbit. But the whole ground assault seemed like a really inefficient option. We know canonically from Rogue One that star destroyers have no trouble operating in atmosphere, so Vader could have simply parked directly above the hangar bay and ordered tractor beams readied in case anyone was foolish enough to call his bluff by trying to fly out past point-blank turbolasers.



Well, they had apparently one single landing bay they could come out of, that should be somewhat "coverable". At the minimum you could have some TIE Fighter patrols around the area where they are breaking into. 
I guess Vader didn't want to risk murdering Obi Wan by his pilots or gunners blowing up his ship.


----------



## pukunui

Imaculata said:


> An enjoyable episode. I think this might be the first time in live action, that we see the force being used to pull a spaceship out of the sky. I remember first seeing it in The Force Unleashed.



I feel like that scene was also a nod to Ep 9, where Ben and Rey use the Force to fight over the fleeing transport that Rey thinks Chewie is on. After she accidentally destroys it, surprise! There was actually another one and Chewie was on board that one!


----------



## This Effin’ GM

Can we all take a moment to appreciate that this show continues Obi’s awesome trend of manipulating young impressionable force users to attempt assassinating Vader? I couldn’t stop laughing. “Oh Ben you rascal”


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> Is this a serious question?
> 
> Because, right now, grenades have a blast radius MUCH farther than you can throw them.  There's a reason you have to stand behind something to throw a grenade.



Thing is that a Thermal Detonator not only has a blast radius bigger than how far you could throw it, it seems to take out everything in that area. Including cover.Seems more like something to use in a booby trap or just straight suicide.


----------



## Nikosandros

Imaculata said:


> I was a little bit disappointed that the invasion of the planet didn't involve cool vehicles of some kind. Also, the plot point of them having only a few hours to evacuate confused me. Surely by the time a Star Destroyer arrives at a planet, it can simply shoot down any ship that tries to leave said planet?



The attack on Hoth in ESB showed that the Imperial Fleet isn't very good with blockades...


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

And from the sequel trilogy (can't remember the number), we know what happens when a ship goes to hyperdrive with ships between them and open space.


----------



## Nikosandros

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And from the sequel trilogy (can't remember the number), we know what happens when a ship goes to hyperdrive with ships between them and open space.



It's Episode VIII, when Holdo rams an enemy ship at light-speed.


----------



## Morrus

Imaculata said:


> I was a little bit disappointed that the invasion of the planet didn't involve cool vehicles of some kind.



Budget.


----------



## MarkB

Nikosandros said:


> It's Episode VIII, when Holdo rams an enemy ship at light-speed.



And in Rogue One we see what happens when people try that with Vader's ship.


----------



## Morrus

So apparently they didn’t de-age Anakin (other than giving him a silly haircut). That’s exactly what he looks like.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> So apparently they didn’t de-age Anakin (other than giving him a silly haircut). That’s exactly what he looks like.



Sounds about right. I hadn't been under the impression that he'd been de-aged until people started talking about it here.


----------



## pukunui

MarkB said:


> Is it comparable to the budget for The Mandalorian? If so, the krayt dragon battle says "yes."



It certainly feels like they didn't have as big a budget as _The Mandalorian_ but I can't confirm it.



Benjamin Olson said:


> I was especially disappointed that they didn't give her a little more of a character moment in discovering she had been tracked (and her droid had been switched to evil-mode) by the empire because in the original movie, she is the one worried they are being tracked by the empire, when they are. It would have made this plot retread feel more like a cool character development thing rather than a plot retread.



Yeah, this was one of several missed opportunities this show has had.



MarkB said:


> And in Rogue One we see what happens when people try that with Vader's ship.



As someone explains in Ep 9, Holdo's maneuver was "one in a million". I think it helped that she entered hyperspace before hitting _Supremacy_, whereas the little Rebel ship that crashes into Vader's ship is still in the process of entering hyperspace when his comes out of it.

My big beef with Holdo's maneuver - and really that whole chase scene in Ep 9 - is that the way it's portrayed, the ships are stationary rather than in motion. Holdo really shouldn't have had time to turn her ship around, pause long enough to send a final message, _then _blast into hyperspace before _Supremacy_ flew past her current position. (I can at least justify Leia's Mary Poppins moment by thinking that the ship was catching up to her as much as she was flying back to it.)



Morrus said:


> So apparently they didn’t de-age Anakin (other than giving him a silly haircut). That’s exactly what he looks like.



Huh. That explains that then! I would've thought they'd have at least tried to make Hayden look like a teenager again for that scene but maybe it wasn't in the budget!


----------



## Rabulias

pukunui said:


> It certainly feels like they didn't have as big a budget as _The Mandalorian_ but I can't confirm it.



Maybe they are spending a lot of their budget in the next episode.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Hussar said:


> Is this a serious question?



No?


----------



## Imaculata

Nikosandros said:


> The attack on Hoth in ESB showed that the Imperial Fleet isn't very good with blockades...



But at least the rebels used a giant Ion Canon to temporarily disable some of the Star Destroyers, allowing shuttles to break the blockade.

In the episode there's nothing stopping the Empire from opening fire on the ship really, or using a tractor beam to bring the ship in.

It bothers me how sloppy these Disney shows tend to be with the plot. I'm fine with minor plot holes, but when the show establishes stakes (we must leave in a few hours), the stakes need to make sense (what happens in a few hours?). I still don't get what the urgency was. If they wanted to leave before the empire arrives, then you have to leave right now. But they were unaware that the droid was carrying a beacon. And once the empire has arrived, thats it right? You can't leave the planet. But apparently you can. Then what was the urgency?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> the ships are stationary rather than in motion.



Motion is relative. There is really no such thing as "stationary".


----------



## fikuvino

Benjamin Olson said:


> The inquisitor blade, however, is just dumb. Even in non-spinning mode it lacks a long enough handle to use two-blades effectively even in many of the limited ways that you could. Then it has spinning mode, which basically makes it impossible to really aim the blade at your opponent at all. I can imagine spinning mode might have some utility to basically turn the whole thing into a shield against blaster fire, or generally as a defensive function, but it seems to be presented as some sort of super-offensive mode and I appreciated seeing Darth Vader defeat it effortlessly.




The only benefit I could see to it is intimidation of people who aren't trained lightsaber duelists.  That doesn't really confer enough of an advantage to be worth all the problems inherent with the design, though.

If I were hunting Jedi who might still have their lightsabers and wanted a specialized weapon, I would want to carry something like a lightsaber-tipped pike with a shaft that is coated in cortosis.  The extra reach and ability to short-out a lightsaber simply by parrying it would be very useful.


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> Motion is relative. There is really no such thing as "stationary".



I'm aware of that. I'm just saying that's what it _looked _like.


----------



## BRayne

MarkB said:


> Sounds about right. I hadn't been under the impression that he'd been de-aged until people started talking about it here.




Yeah I thought I was going crazy, he just looked like he was 20 years older than the character


----------



## Zardnaar

I thought it was Hayden Christensen now just dressed up and makeup to look younger and failing badly. 

 If it was a deafing effect bit of a fail.


----------



## Imaculata

It definitely seems to be Hayden in the Vader suit. He's no longer as tall or broad as David Prowse.

The show isn't great, but it is entertaining enough to keep watching. Ewan is great, even if his character always was (and still is) boring. But occasionally there are fun character moments, so Obi Wan definitely is slightly more interesting than he was in the prequels. The sets and costumes look great. The effects are good, but occasionally there's scenes that come across as rather low budget. Such as that bizarre laser barrier that looked small enough to hop over. The action varies from fun, to poorly choreographed. And the plot, while simple, is servicable. At least there is one, and despite it being riddled with tiny plot holes, for the most part it is alright. And the kid playing Leia is really well cast.

For all its minor faults, I'll keep watching. I don't really care if Reva's lightsaber is a practical weapon either. That just seems like nitpicking to me. It's fantasy.


----------



## Hussar

Imaculata said:


> It definitely seems to be Hayden in the Vader suit. He's no longer as tall or broad as David Prowse.




According to Google there’s like an inch difference I height and about twenty pounds lighter. If you can tell that through that suit, you’ve got much better eyes than mine.


----------



## Imaculata

Hussar said:


> According to Google there’s like an inch difference I height and about twenty pounds lighter. If you can tell that through that suit, you’ve got much better eyes than mine.



I was looking mostly at the shoulders. It seems like Vader has the same body frame as Hayden, so I think it's actually  him in the suit.


----------



## pukunui

Was Hayden wearing the suit in the final scene in Ep 3?


----------



## Imaculata

I don't know, but apparently according to an instagram post of someone who worked on the show, Darth Vader is actually played by 3 different people, including 2 stunt men, and Hayden himself. Apparently for most of the fight scenes, it is not actually Hayden.


----------



## pukunui

Sorry. I meant Ep 3 as in _Revenge of the Sith_, not episode 3 of this show.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Imaculata said:


> I don't know, but apparently according to an instagram post of someone who worked on the show, Darth Vader is actually played by 3 different people, including 2 stunt men, and Hayden himself. Apparently for most of the fight scenes, it is not actually Hayden.



If you take stuntmen into account most characters are played by at least 3 different people.


----------



## Marc Radle

pukunui said:


> Was Hayden wearing the suit in the final scene in Ep 3?



Yes! There was a lot of press about it at the time - Hayden was super excited to be in the suite, and folks on the set on the day that was shot all talked about how cool and imposing Hayden looked when he walked onto the set as Vader


----------



## Rabulias

Marc Radle said:


> Yes! There was a lot of press about it at the time - Hayden was super excited to be in the suite, and folks on the set on the day that was shot all talked about how cool and imposing Hayden looked when he walked onto the set as Vader



The other notable thing about that scene is Wayne Pygram in a blink-and-you-miss-it turn as a younger Tarkin. I think they should have hired him for _Rogue One._


----------



## Imaculata

Paul Farquhar said:


> If you take stuntmen into account most characters are played by at least 3 different people.



The question was: is Hayden in the Vader suit in the episodes that feature Vader?

And the answer to that is: sometimes.


----------



## Zaukrie

We are mostly enjoying the show, until it is over and I give a moment's thought to how bad some of the writing is, and how no one in this galaxy understands tactics at all. And how the empire can't ever stop one small ship. Also, I was really enjoying the focus on Leia, but now I fear we are switching to Luke....

Vader was great this episode for the most part.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> Budget.



Perhaps, But there are few things more disappointing than when actual Darth Vader shows up at a planet in his personal star destroyer, orders "start the attack", and then two teeny little transport ships fly out.


----------



## Hex08

Zaukrie said:


> and how no one in this galaxy understands tactics at all. And how the empire can't ever stop one small ship



This seems to be failing across the franchise. I just chalk it up to the heavy fantasy nature of the franchise and assume there is some odd in-universe reason, like the existence of the Force caused people to not develop those skills for some yadda-yadda... reasons.


----------



## Jmarso

This problem with tactics (or lack thereof) really started to show up in the PT, starting with the final battle of TPM.

Droids and gungans just roll up on each other, form ranks like it's the 1800's or something, and start shooting. Ridiculous. I guess droid armies don't need air cover either, even when they have it available.

From there it just gets progressively worse, right up to the stuff we are seeing in this series.


----------



## Zaukrie

If I was a force user, I'd crush Vader's life support systems and helmet. While my friends shot at him from all angles. Actually, I'd probably just lure him somewhere and drop a massive bomb... Or have one already there and detonate it. Or, well, there are a million ways ...


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Zaukrie said:


> If I was a force user, I'd crush Vader's life support systems and helmet. While my friends shot at him from all angles. Actually, I'd probably just lure him somewhere and drop a massive bomb... Or have one already there and detonate it. Or, well, there are a million ways ...




Yeah, a million ways to make the shows/movies totally boring and over in 10 minutes. When people can't suspend their disbelief and just enjoy what they are watching, it makes me wonder if they are really even fans.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yeah, a million ways to make the shows/movies totally boring and over in 10 minutes. When people can't suspend their disbelief and just enjoy what they are watching, it makes me wonder if they are really even fans.



I always hate it when you hear that _really toxic_ element of the internet referred to as "fans". People who _hate_ something are not fans of that thing!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

FitzTheRuke said:


> I always hate it when you hear that _really toxic_ element of the internet referred to as "fans". People who _hate_ something are not fans of that thing!




Yeah, there are so many stupid memes and comments on the social media sites and apps about "if this happened instead, movie X is over in 2 minutes". Some are just made in innocent fun, but so many are toxic hate in disguise, that I have a hair trigger reaction to them right now, and I hope I did not sound like I was attacking @Zaukrie personally in my reply to them.


----------



## Zaukrie

FitzTheRuke said:


> I always hate it when you hear that _really toxic_ element of the internet referred to as "fans". People who _hate_ something are not fans of that thing!



I literally said I'm liking it, but wish there was some sense of tactics. I'm unsure how that is toxic.


----------



## Zaukrie

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yeah, a million ways to make the shows/movies totally boring and over in 10 minutes. When people can't suspend their disbelief and just enjoy what they are watching, it makes me wonder if they are really even fans.



Or, there could be a way he lives. But they don't even try. Edit ...I see that wasn't aimed at me.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Zaukrie said:


> I literally said I'm liking it, but wish there was some sense of tactics. I'm unsure how that is toxic.



Huh? I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the toxic cesspool that people usually refer to as "Star Wars Fandom" (that IMO has nothing to do with fandom, but a small group of very verbal haters from the bowels of the internet).

Sorry if the chain-of-events made it seem personal. You are free to nit-pick! That's another thing entirely and perfectly okay!


----------



## Aeson

"I'm going to need a ladder."
It's not going to be iconic, but I think it should be. Next Halloween, there should be a ton of young Leias running around. Kamala Khan and Leia, the IT costumes this year?


----------



## Aeson

I've had no issues with the acting. It could be how they asked her to play Reva. I don't know about Halloween, but I see cosplayers taking on the character. Episode 5 was her time to shine. We got back story. I saw it coming early on, though. Obi-Wan using her was delicious. 

I looked at Anakin, and thought they made no effort to de-age him. That was the type of scene I expected to see him in. Were they experiencing the same memory? It kinda looked that way.


----------



## Ryujin

Aeson said:


> "I'm going to need a ladder."
> It's not going to be iconic, but I think it should be. Next Halloween, there should be a ton of young Leias running around. Kamala Khan and Leia, the IT costumes this year?



Can you ever remember seeing a ladder, or hearing one mentioned in a Star Wars property before? I can't. A bit jarring, for some reason.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Ryujin said:


> Can you ever remember seeing a ladder, or hearing one mentioned in a Star Wars property before? I can't. A bit jarring, for some reason.



That reason probably being that Star Wars is usually chock-full of needlessly hovering things.

But, I have most definitely _seen_ them in Star Wars before. I don't think they've ever been mentioned.


----------



## Ryujin

Benjamin Olson said:


> That reason probably being that Star Wars is usually chock-full of needlessly hovering things.
> 
> But, I have most definitely _seen_ them in Star Wars before. I don't think they've ever been mentioned.
> 
> View attachment 251300



I was thinking more about general utility ladders, but had admittedly forgotten about boarding ladders.


----------



## MarkB

Benjamin Olson said:


> That reason probably being that Star Wars is usually chock-full of needlessly hovering things.
> 
> But, I have most definitely _seen_ them in Star Wars before. I don't think they've ever been mentioned.
> 
> View attachment 251300



Plus they have them all over the interior of larger starships - like the ones used to access the Falcon's gun turrets, which have a really cool factor in that gravity flips 90 degrees as you're climbing them, so that you can emerge and sit down in the vertically-facing turret.


----------



## Zardnaar

I thought episode v5 was reasonably good. Reva isn't the brightest.


----------



## Aeson

Ryujin said:


> Can you ever remember seeing a ladder, or hearing one mentioned in a Star Wars property before? I can't. A bit jarring, for some reason.



It wasn't jarring to me. I chuckled. They were already shooting from below, I could easily see her saying the line with her hands on her hips in a Superman pose. lol I bet there's a take with that shot. 

Didn't the Ewoks have ladders? Not mentioned but I'm sure as stated by others, they do exist.


----------



## Aeson

Zardnaar said:


> I thought episode v5 was reasonably good. Reva isn't the brightest.



It's best that henchmen aren't the brightest. Hungry for power but dim. That's how Vader likes them.


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> Can you ever remember seeing a ladder, or hearing one mentioned in a Star Wars property before? I can't. A bit jarring, for some reason.



That's how you get into an X Wing. Going back to the first Star Wars film.


----------



## Hussar

As far as nit picking goes, there’s a great quote from Mark Hamil to Harrison Ford during the making of Star Wars scene with the trash compactor. 

Hamil says to Ford something like, “I’ve just been swimming in all this muck. Shouldn’t my hair be all gunky?” To which Ford replies, “it ain’t that kind of movie kid. If they’re looking at your hair, we’re doing it wrong”

It’s just funny on so many levels.


----------



## Imaculata

Ryujin said:


> Can you ever remember seeing a ladder, or hearing one mentioned in a Star Wars property before? I can't. A bit jarring, for some reason.




I think it was mostly jarring because it was a bad line. If instead the dialog focused on "just giving Leia a shot, she's smarter than you think", it would have been fine. Obi Wan asking for a ladder is just oddly specific. Also, weren't the vents pretty high up? Out of range of most ladders? And then we never see the ladder, because they cut around it. Which makes mentioning a ladder we never see, stand out even more.


----------



## Hussar

Imaculata said:


> I think it was mostly jarring because it was a bad line. If instead the dialog focused on "just giving Leia a shot, she's smarter than you think", it would have been fine. Obi Wan asking for a ladder is just oddly specific. Also, weren't the vents pretty high up? Out of range of most ladders? And then we never see the ladder, because they cut around it. Which makes mentioning a ladder we never see, stand out even more.



Thought that this was wrong.

At 28:16 we see Leia climbing down the ladder to meet Obi-wan.  Do we really need to see her climbing up the ladder?


----------



## Imaculata

Hussar said:


> Thought that this was wrong.
> 
> At 28:16 we see Leia climbing down the ladder to meet Obi-wan.  Do we really need to see her climbing up the ladder?



Oh, on second thought, you're right! We do see the ladder! It was all so odd.

I think what makes it so jarring, is that ultimately it doesn't matter how she gets up to the vent. What matters is that Obi Wan trusts her, and wants to convince the rebel in charge, to trust her as well. We don't need to detail how she gets up there, or how she gets back down.

Besides, wasn't the reason Leia had to do it, because it was a very narrow space? So why put focus on how to get up there?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> Can you ever remember seeing a ladder, or hearing one mentioned in a Star Wars property before? I can't. A bit jarring, for some reason.



Hydroladder?


----------



## Imaculata

That's what gets me with this show. It is charming and feels like Star Wars, but in every episode there is always something that is kind of clumpsy.

The Leia chase in episode 1, with a bunch of adults trying so hard not to immediately catch her.

The slow unnecessary rooftop parcour in episode 2, and the odd way the firefight ends.

The silly laser checkpoint in episode 3, that you could just hop over or go around.

Pulling rank in fortress inquisitous in episode 4. Also, hiding behind a crate, in what seems to be full view of the room. But maybe I'm misremembering.

And now the ladder in episode 5, and Vader commanding an invasion of the planet, which is followed by just two transports with a handful of Stormtroopers landing.

And yet, despite the clumpsiness, it is still a fun watch.


----------



## Flamestrike

Morrus said:


> So apparently they didn’t de-age Anakin (other than giving him a silly haircut). That’s exactly what he looks like.




While I thought he looked a lot older than the 19 years old he is portraying there, Hayden isnt doing too bad for a bloke in his 40's.


----------



## Flamestrike

Imaculata said:


> But at least the rebels used a giant Ion Canon to temporarily disable some of the Star Destroyers, allowing shuttles to break the blockade.
> 
> In the episode there's nothing stopping the Empire from opening fire on the ship really, or using a tractor beam to bring the ship in.




Tractor beams havent been shown to work from orbit to the surface of a planet into the atmosphere, and there is literally nothing stopping the Transport from flying to the other side of the planet and leaving from there.


----------



## Flamestrike

Zaukrie said:


> If I was a force user, I'd crush Vader's life support systems and helmet. While my friends shot at him from all angles. Actually, I'd probably just lure him somewhere and drop a massive bomb... Or have one already there and detonate it. Or, well, there are a million ways ...




If only he wasnt a space wizard who can see into the future and read minds.


----------



## Imaculata

Flamestrike said:


> Tractor beams havent been shown to work from orbit to the surface of a planet into the atmosphere, and there is literally nothing stopping the Transport from flying to the other side of the planet and leaving from there.




Star Wars never really explores the tactics of the empire, and I guess they don't really need to. But it would make sense to surround a planet with more than just one Star Destroyer, if you want to prevent your target from escaping a planet.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Imaculata said:


> That's what gets me with this show. It is charming and feels like Star Wars, but in every episode there is always something that is kind of clumpsy.



Partly I think we have writers focused on prioritizing good character moments at the cost of even less plot sense or world-building consistency than we've come to expect in a franchise that's always been a little slapshod on those counts really. Partly I think we have a director, or whoever on the production team has the authority to do otherwise, who either doesn't notice that scenes that maybe seemed like they worked in the script don't quite make sense as actually staged or who just figures it doesn't matter. Maybe it was just a rushed or troubled production.

And it doesn't matter quite enough to really hurt my enjoyment of the show, but it definitely takes some of the shine off my enjoyment. It also gives the toxic corner of the "fanbase" plenty of little nitpicks to hyperbolically denounce it over, not that I much care about their nonsense. It feels like giving everything another pass and paying for some reshoots really could have made it a much stronger series.

It's still probably going to end up being my favorite Star Wars prequel though.


----------



## MarkB

Imaculata said:


> That's what gets me with this show. It is charming and feels like Star Wars, but in every episode there is always something that is kind of clumpsy.
> 
> The Leia chase in episode 1, with a bunch of adults trying so hard not to immediately catch her.
> 
> The slow unnecessary rooftop parcour in episode 2, and the odd way the firefight ends.
> 
> The silly laser checkpoint in episode 3, that you could just hop over or go around.
> 
> Pulling rank in fortress inquisitous in episode 4. Also, hiding behind a crate, in what seems to be full view of the room. But maybe I'm misremembering.
> 
> And now the ladder in episode 5, and Vader commanding an invasion of the planet, which is followed by just two transports with a handful of Stormtroopers landing.
> 
> And yet, despite the clumpsiness, it is still a fun watch.



I really don't get your objection to the ladder. Thinking "do they have ladders in Star Wars?", that I get - but the rest of it feels like you think you've backed yourself into the corner with the first bit, and are now doubling down to try and retain the shreds of your initial complaint.

Leia says "get me a ladder" because she needs one to get to the vent. Obi-wan says "get her a ladder" as confirmation that they should be doing what she asked them to. Nothing clunky or "clumpsy" about it.


----------



## Imaculata

MarkB said:


> I really don't get your objection to the ladder. Thinking "do they have ladders in Star Wars?", that I get - but the rest of it feels like you think you've backed yourself into the corner with the first bit, and are now doubling down to try and retain the shreds of your initial complaint.



No. See, ladders exist in Star Wars. What bothers me is just the way the scene flows. The dialog feels off, the scene doesn't flow well. This is by far not the only scene that has that problem.

I don't do doubling down, if I know I'm wrong. But I can't shake the feeling that something about the scene was clunky. I'm merely trying to put into words what it is.


----------



## Zaukrie

Flamestrike said:


> If only he wasnt a space wizard who can see into the future and read minds.



Doesn't seem to help him all the time. But sure, that could be hope he stops it. My point is, I'd try stuff to stop him, not that it would work. You know, for fun and entertainment.... We can disagree, politely.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Imaculata said:


> Star Wars never really explores the tactics of the empire, and I guess they don't really need to. But it would make sense to surround a planet with more than just one Star Destroyer, if you want to prevent your target from escaping a planet.



Having fighters launched and standing by.

However, if your objective is to capture Kenobi and as many Force sensitives as possible _alive_, you might use minimal force.

Of course, if you were Thrawn, you would have fighters equipped with tractor beams. But Vader aint Thrawn.


----------



## Flamestrike

Paul Farquhar said:


> Having fighters launched and standing by.




If you want to enter Hyperspace, those fighters first need to land on your Star Destroyer.

Or you're leaving them behind, with no Hyperdrives.


----------



## MarkB

Flamestrike said:


> If you want to enter Hyperspace, those fighters first need to land on your Star Destroyer.
> 
> Or you're leaving them behind, with no Hyperdrives.



That's why you have spares.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Rabulias said:


> The other notable thing about that scene is Wayne Pygram in a blink-and-you-miss-it turn as a younger Tarkin. I think they should have hired him for _Rogue One._



Ah, good old Scorpius! He'd make a fine Tarkin. But maybe not a younger Tarkin anymore...


----------



## Haiku Elvis

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Ah, good old Scorpius! He'd make a fine Tarkin. But maybe not a younger Tarkin anymore...




He could offer Vader pizza and margarita shooters! 

Anyway don't sweat the whole time/aging thing. Ten years after this series Obi wan is due to look like Alec Guiness while Bail Organa is due to look younger than he does now. (based off Rogue One) Just go with the flow.


----------



## Staffan

Hussar said:


> I thought this was more of a trophy room.  These Jedi were on display.  And, being on display like this, really drives it home to Obi-Wan just how bad things really are.  It's one thing to kill your enemies, but, to turn them into hunting trophies is horrific.  And, wouldn't this be something of a trophy room for Vader?  This is how far Vader has fallen (as if we needed more - but, this is all pre-Episode IV so, Obi-Wan hasn't actually seen just how bad Vader really is yet) and presumably goes a long way to convincing Obi-Wan to not tell Luke who his father really is.  I mean, there's a difference between, "Your father is the right hand man to the Emperor, he's really bad" and "Your father is a psychopath, child murderer who keeps trophies of his kills".



I had a thought, given the amber... what if they're frozen on the cusp of death, in mortal terror? We know the Dark Side thrives on fear, so it might serve to make the fortress more Dark Side-y and explain the bad vibes people are mentioning.


----------



## Staffan

Flamestrike said:


> That scene always was just so jarring (as was the fall itself).
> 
> He certainly did a few questionable things in the Clone Wars (definately getting more jealous and occasionally dropping the odd force choke here or there) but his fall was just so sudden. Other than killing Dooku and some light genocide on Tatooine, there were not too many other acts, where you could say 'Yep, evil'.
> 
> And then suddenly, he's kneeling before the Emperor, and then off back to the place he just left on a speeder, to slaughter a ton of.... children?
> 
> Like I know he murdered a bunch of kids a while back on Tatooine (and told Padme about it, when they first started dating, and she was all like 'we all make mistakes sometimes Annie... like WTF?) but still.



The Dark Side is not just a scorekeeper. While it might not have a mind per se, it is active malevolence. Once you go Dark Side, "forever will it dominate your destiny". So it makes sense that once Anakin succumbed to fear and rage, he'd go all in.


----------



## Staffan

Zaukrie said:


> If I was a force user, I'd crush Vader's life support systems and helmet. While my friends shot at him from all angles. Actually, I'd probably just lure him somewhere and drop a massive bomb... Or have one already there and detonate it. Or, well, there are a million ways ...



Like that'd help.


----------



## MGibster

Hussar said:


> At 28:16 we see Leia climbing down the ladder to meet Obi-wan. Do we really need to see her climbing up the ladder?



It's vital to the plot.  Or, you know, as vital as finding out how Bruce Waybe gets back to Gotham after escaping his prison in _The Dark Knight Rises_ was to the plot.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Staffan said:


> Like that'd help.



I guess there is some element of Vancian spellcasting to the Dark Side... If you don't prepare your "crush space shuttles" spell after meditation, you won't be able to cast it.


----------



## Staffan

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I guess there is some element of Vancian spellcasting to the Dark Side... If you don't prepare your "crush space shuttles" spell after meditation, you won't be able to cast it.



Star Wars Saga had force powers in a more-or-less Vancian format. So maybe Vader used his telekinesis power to lift the ATs, and didn't have any left for the _Phantom_. Or maybe he just wasn't angry enough at that point.


----------



## Flamestrike

Staffan said:


> Star Wars Saga had force powers in a more-or-less Vancian format. So maybe Vader used his telekinesis power to lift the ATs, and didn't have any left for the _Phantom_. Or maybe he just wasn't angry enough at that point.




Move Object on a (Colossal) Space Transport is possible, but if it's moving you have to overcome its Grapple bonus (+40 or so and up to +50 for some of the bigger ones).

A tall order for an 18th level Vader with +17 to UtF.

He'd need to blow a Force Point, likely also a Destiny point (and you only get 1 a level, and when theyre gone theyre gone) plus have a use of the Power to burn.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Staffan said:


> Star Wars Saga had force powers in a more-or-less Vancian format. So maybe Vader used his telekinesis power to lift the ATs, and didn't have any left for the _Phantom_. Or maybe he just wasn't angry enough at that point.



The Phantom is a hero-ship, and therefore strong in the Force.


----------



## Maxperson

pukunui said:


> Well, I guess he got prematurely old too, just like Obi-Wan, who goes from looking like 51 yo Ewan to 63 yo Alec in a span of 9 years.



51+9=60, which is just 3 years from 63.  Given how hard and soft various people age, it isn't too much of a stretch to think that he goes from Ewan to Alec in 9 years.


----------



## Dioltach

Obi-Wan's rapid aging could be explained if we see him use Force Lightning. Just a bit, not full Darth Sidious, but enough to turn him prematurely grey.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Maxperson said:


> 51+9=60, which is just 3 years from 63.  Given how hard and soft various people age, it isn't too much of a stretch to think that he goes from Ewan to Alec in 9 years.



I'm 2 years older than Ewan, and could easily pass for 10.


----------



## Zardnaar

Flamestrike said:


> Move Object on a (Colossal) Space Transport is possible, but if it's moving you have to overcome its Grapple bonus (+40 or so and up to +50 for some of the bigger ones).
> 
> A tall order for an 18th level Vader with +17 to UtF.
> 
> He'd need to blow a Force Point, likely also a Destiny point (and you only get 1 a level, and when theyre gone theyre gone) plus have a use of the Power to burn.




 His stats aren't very good in game. Think I've had close to +17 reasonably early on. 

 Iirc he could spend a force point to get a power back. 

 D6 spend a point double your roll.


----------



## Imaculata

So, next wednesday is the last episode of the show I think? Wonder how they will end it.


----------



## Ryujin

Imaculata said:


> So, next wednesday is the last episode of the show I think? Wonder how they will end it.



They're captured, Leia is tortured in front of Obi Wan and her parents. Vader takes Obi Wan back to Tatooine and kills young Luke and then, just when he's about to kill Obi Wan, he wakes up and it was all a dream.


----------



## South by Southwest




----------



## Haiku Elvis

Ryujin said:


> They're captured, Leia is tortured in from of Obi Wan and her parents. Vader takes Obi Wan back to Tatooine and kills young Luke and then, just when he's about to kill Obi Wan, he wakes up and it was all a dream.



Whatever happens I'm guessing they will all be so traumatised that they'll never mention these events ever again and act as if it never happened. Even if they meet the same people again they'll make no reference to them.


----------



## Flamestrike

Zardnaar said:


> His stats aren't very good in game. Think I've had close to +17 reasonably early on.




How? Your DM allowed SF (UtF) early game?

He does get a -4 to UtF from 4 Cybernetic limbs.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Imaculata said:


> So, next wednesday is the last episode of the show I think? Wonder how they will end it.




You mean in two days when episode 6 airs? Rumors say the episode may be as long as 90 minutes, so almost a double-sized episode, or plenty of time to wrap things up.


----------



## Marc Radle

Really? 90 minutes?

I follow this stuff fairly closely and haven’t heard that anywhere … do you have a source for where you’ve seen these rumors?

Hope it turns out to be true though!


----------



## MarkB

Wednesday is now looking extremely busy for me, TV-wise.

Obi-wan Kenobi finale, possibly clocking in at 90 minutes.
Ms Marvel
Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness
Paramount+ launches in the UK, so I can finally start catching up on Strange New Worlds
Oh well, at least I'll have plenty to keep me occupied for the next several evenings.


----------



## pukunui

Marc Radle said:


> Really? 90 minutes?
> 
> I follow this stuff fairly closely and haven’t heard that anywhere … do you have a source for where you’ve seen these rumors?
> 
> Hope it turns out to be true though!



Looks like the 90 mins thing came from a live showing that's going to be followed by a live Q&A. So the actual episode probably won't be any longer than usual.









						Obi-Wan Kenobi Finale Runtime Rumors Debunked
					

Obi-Wan Kenobi's rumored finale runtime may have been debunked.




					thedirect.com


----------



## Rabulias

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> You mean in two days when episode 6 airs? Rumors say the episode may be as long as 90 minutes, so almost a double-sized episode, or plenty of time to wrap things up.



That would be wizard if true!


----------



## Mezuka

South by Southwest said:


>




I'm old enough to have lived it. My mother, who is very peaceful by nature was swearing at the TV like a sailor.


----------



## Zardnaar

Flamestrike said:


> How? Your DM allowed SF (UtF) early game?
> 
> He does get a -4 to UtF from 4 Cybernetic limbs.




+5 trained
+5 skill focus
+3-5 ability score

 That's +15 potentially level 1-3 or so depending on race. Guardian Spirit talent can give you a +2 bonus. +1 bonus at level 2 and 4 and 6 iirc.

 So basically you're better at force checks than Vader early on.


----------



## Marc Radle

Rabulias said:


> That would be wizard if true!



Wizard?


----------



## Mannahnin

Marc Radle said:


> Wizard?



wizard
adjective
Definition of _wizard_ (Entry 2 of 2)
1chiefly British *: *worthy of the highest praise *: *EXCELLENT
2archaic *: *having magical influence or power
3archaic *: *of or relating to wizardry *: *ENCHANTED









						Definition of WIZARD
					

one skilled in magic : sorcerer; a very clever or skillful person; a wise man : sage… See the full definition




					www.merriam-webster.com


----------



## Rabulias

Marc Radle said:


> Wizard?



I intended this to be a callback to this scene in _Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace_:


----------



## Haiku Elvis

A spiffing reference indeed! Just capital!


----------



## South by Southwest




----------



## Marc Radle

Rabulias said:


> I intended this to be a callback to this scene in _Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace_:
> View attachment 251592





Mannahnin said:


> wizard
> adjective
> Definition of _wizard_ (Entry 2 of 2)
> 1chiefly British *: *worthy of the highest praise *: *EXCELLENT
> 2archaic *: *having magical influence or power
> 3archaic *: *of or relating to wizardry *: *ENCHANTED
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definition of WIZARD
> 
> 
> one skilled in magic : sorcerer; a very clever or skillful person; a wise man : sage… See the full definition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.merriam-webster.com



Wow, I’ve never heard that word used in that way ever. I guess not being British has a lot to do with that.


----------



## pukunui

It's probably intended as a callback to that Phantom Menace scene as well, but I recall Mando saying "wizard" when testing out his refurbished Naboo starfighter on Tatooine. (He even goes through Beggar's Canyon on his test flight.)


----------



## Rabulias

Marc Radle said:


> Wow, I’ve never heard that word used in that way ever. I guess not being British has a lot to do with that.



I was unaware of the British usage; I thought it was George Lucas's attempt to coin a new phrase (like maybe "fetch," for another reference). So you did not watch Episode I?


----------



## trappedslider

Rabulias said:


> (like maybe "fetch," for another reference).


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Marc Radle said:


> Wow, I’ve never heard that word used in that way ever. I guess not being British has a lot to do with that.



It's a bit dated. 60s/70s sort of vibe.


----------



## Marc Radle

Rabulias said:


> I was unaware of the British usage; I thought it was George Lucas's attempt to coin a new phrase (like maybe "fetch," for another reference). So you did not watch Episode I?



Oh sure, but it’s been _years_ since I last saw I last saw it and I definitely don’t remember that line from the movie.


----------



## pukunui

OK that was a satisfying ending.

Obi-Wan schools Anakin one last time. The voice effects there were cool.

Reva is still alive and could easily get her own spin-off show.

Stuff happened in this show without really changing the status quo of what comes later, although it did perhaps fill in some gaps. So that was cool.

I would not mind seeing more of Ewan as Obi-Wan. He does a good job.

Also, that final scene!


----------



## Nikosandros

It was a nice show, not great (IMO), but I enjoyed it.



pukunui said:


> Obi-Wan schools Anakin one last time. The voice effects there were cool.




Very cool indeed.



pukunui said:


> Reva is still alive and could easily get her own spin-off show.




She's an interesting character and they could do more with her. Making the toxic fan mad would be an added bonus...



pukunui said:


> Stuff happened in this show without really changing the status quo of what comes later, although it did perhaps fill in some gaps. So that was cool.




The fact that the future "state" of all the main characters was already know, reduced for me the emotional stakes. Still, it couldn't  be helped.



pukunui said:


> I would not mind seeing more of Ewan as Obi-Wan. He does a good job.




I've always loved Ewan's interpretation of Obi-Wan.


----------



## Davies

Y'know, when Obi-Wan finds Lola in his pocket, I think that is the first genuine smile he gives in the whole series.


----------



## wicked cool

final scene-great loved it. Would love more of that if it comes back. Pay that person as you have the money

the rest of the episode was  garbage

the power surge -really? it was a cool fight if it had ended in a different way. It carries over to the conversation vader has after the battle. He lost/no big deal that a jedi general is still out there and is alive. the emperor would not be so casual about this loss

the redemption of a dark side character to a light side. she has been trained her entire childhood for this. has no problem torturing the princess and cant forgive herself over a boy she has never met. Not buying the whole concept . reva leaving the lars family alive. Doesnt really fit with her character

Meeting Ben/being chased by a lightsaber character-seems to me this sort of destroys lore. hes not blind as he runs through the canyon. this is an event that would shape the whole family including luke 

the shuttle craft getting there after the battle almost in time to save the day. 

probably the worst story they have written so far filled with horrible acting and poor directing

Other than a few moments i would argue that the Solo movie is superior in every way 

This franchise is basically alive due to mandalorian and some cartoons


----------



## Ryujin

wicked cool said:


> final scene-great loved it. Would love more of that if it comes back. Pay that person as you have the money
> 
> the rest of the episode was  garbage
> 
> the power surge -really? it was a cool fight if it had ended in a different way. It carries over to the conversation vader has after the battle. He lost/no big deal that a jedi general is still out there and is alive. the emperor would not be so casual about this loss
> 
> the redemption of a dark side character to a light side. she has been trained her entire childhood for this. has no problem torturing the princess and cant forgive herself over a boy she has never met. Not buying the whole concept . reva leaving the lars family alive. Doesnt really fit with her character
> 
> Meeting Ben/being chased by a lightsaber character-seems to me this sort of destroys lore. hes not blind as he runs through the canyon. this is an event that would shape the whole family including luke
> 
> the shuttle craft getting there after the battle almost in time to save the day.
> 
> probably the worst story they have written so far filled with horrible acting and poor directing
> 
> Other than a few moments i would argue that the Solo movie is superior in every way
> 
> This franchise is basically alive due to mandalorian and some cartoons



They were pretty careful with Luke. His head was out the hatch and he never saw Reva in the compound. He was above and in front of her on the ridge, then unconscious when she walked up to him.


----------



## wicked cool

so we are going to argue that leia remembers her meeting with ben but Luke will block it all out. I think Luke would at least have recognition and maybe ponder why the sandperson had that red light that was chasing him

hes 10? not 5-


----------



## Ryujin

wicked cool said:


> so we are going to argue that leia remembers her meeting with ben but Luke will block it all out. I think Luke would at least have recognition and maybe ponder why the sandperson had that red light that was chasing him
> 
> hes 10? not 5-



Well, to be fair, he did say, "I wonder if she means old Ben Kenobi" after seeing Leia's vid, and Kenobi has had a full body transplant by then.


----------



## MarkB

wicked cool said:


> the redemption of a dark side character to a light side. she has been trained her entire childhood for this. has no problem torturing the princess and cant forgive herself over a boy she has never met. Not buying the whole concept . reva leaving the lars family alive. Doesnt really fit with her character



If she had no problem with torturing Leia, it's funny that she left it to an absolute last resort after trying everything else. And she never actually does it.


wicked cool said:


> so we are going to argue that leia remembers her meeting with ben but Luke will block it all out. I think Luke would at least have recognition and maybe ponder why the sandperson had that red light that was chasing him
> 
> hes 10? not 5-



She had extinguished her lightsaber by the time she started chasing him across the desert, and didn't light it again until he was unconscious. All he knows is that some unidentified figure chased him in the dark.

And Luke doesn't have anything to block out when it comes to meeting Ben. He's not friends with him or anything in A New Hope, but he knows him and recognises him on sight.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

I think it was overall emotionally satisfying.
But the space chase scene was as bad as it was in TLJ. They could have at least put Vader in a smaller ship (like an Arquitans or what it's called) or something that it seems plausible that his ship maybe can't destroy a freighter - or drop ship - that's flying in front of them.

The Emperor's response to Vader's failure seemed also rather light. Maybe Vader lied when he said the Emperor was not as forgiving as him.


----------



## trappedslider

My biggest problem with the episode was that Vader didn't say "Now I have the high ground"


----------



## MarkB

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I think it was overall emotionally satisfying.
> But the space chase scene was as bad as it was in TLJ. They could have at least put Vader in a smaller ship (like an Arquitans or what it's called) or something that it seems plausible that his ship maybe can't destroy a freighter - or drop ship - that's flying in front of them.



The chase was rather ridiculous. This is an Imperial II class Star Destroyer, it has entire squadrons of TIE Fighters it can deploy in pursuit of a vessel that's currently incapable of going to lightspeed - it's not an either-or proposition between the two ships.

I think that's really why the Emperor calls Vader off in the end - he's demonstrating a clear lack of objectivity and clarity in his pursuit, and allowing him to continue it might give him some wrong ideas.


----------



## Dioltach

Very satisfying lightsaber duel. But, just like in Revenge of the Sith, I think it would have ended better with Vader's scene.

(Seriously, if RotS had ended with the POV of the mask descending on Vader's face, it would have changed the whole tone of the movie - and made A New Hope a much better title for its sequel.)


----------



## Morrus

Was good. Was very good. Was very Star Wars.I approve!


----------



## Stalker0

A fine show, not a great one, but fine enough.


----------



## Tonguez

It was a satisfying end episode for the story, 

I did not like the Qui-gon cameo though, a ghost on the side of the road who was ‘always with you’ seems more like Ben being delusional (and a little too “Footsteps in the Sand”)

and why is Vader searching the galaxy when he already knows Obi-Wan lives on Tatooine?


----------



## Morrus

Tonguez said:


> It
> 
> and why is Vader searching the galaxy when he already knows Obi-Wan lives on Tatooine?



I missed that. Did he say he knew that?


----------



## pukunui

I don’t think any of them discovered that Obi-Wan lives on Tatooine. Reva had to kidnap Leia to draw Obi-Wan out of hiding, but she encountered him on Daiyu, not Tatooine. Reva also learned that Luke was on Tatooine but not that Obi-Wan has been living there too. And she didn’t share that info with Vader since he’d already left her for dead.


----------



## Ryujin

pukunui said:


> I don’t think any of them discovered that Obi-Wan lives on Tatooine. Reva had to kidnap Leia to draw Obi-Wan out of hiding, but she encountered him on Daiyu, not Tatooine. Reva also learned that Luke was on Tatooine but not that Obi-Wan has been living there too. And she didn’t share that info with Vader since he’d already left her for dead.



Though Reva obviously knows that Kenobi has been on Tatooine, now, and that Luke is there.


----------



## pukunui

Ryujin said:


> Though Reva obviously knows that Kenobi has been on Tatooine, now, and that Luke is there.



Yep, but she obviously never tells Vader …


----------



## South by Southwest

I'll leave the picking of innumerable nits to those who enjoy such things.

I liked the finale and I liked the series. 



Spoiler: SPOILERS



Paul Farquhar, I think it was, who first predicted it'd be a redemption story for Reva, and he was on the money (nice call, Paul). The redemption arc for Obi-Wan I liked, too, and the final light saber duel was great. The call-back to RotJ at the end of the duel fit naturally and worked well, and it's even consistent with, _"When last we met, I was but a learner..."_



I rate the whole series just a hair under _The Mandalorian_. Sure, it had a rocky start, but soon enough it got there and ultimately delivered more than I expected. Ingram's acting (especially in her final scene) was just spot on: ain't nothin' wooden here, baby. Really, really good.


----------



## Morrus

I really liked that lightsaber fight.

I don't like bouncy flippy lightsaber fights*. I like it when they feel real, and that there is passion behind them. The Luke v Vader fight in RotJ is awesome. It doesn't need triple cartwheels or spinning whizzing stuff. That's just cartoony.

This one was good. There were a few moments (Ewan, you don't need to do that random forward roll, and especially not three times) but it was good. It felt real; way better than those in the prequels (though I'll give the one with Maul a pass).


*Yoda vs Dooku never happened. I refused to believe it.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

South by Southwest said:


> Ingram's acting (especially in her final scene) was just spot on: ain't nothin' wooden here, baby. Really, really good.




Yeah, I am glad her character evolved beyond the stereotype stuff from the first couple of episodes into a more real person.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> I don’t think any of them discovered that Obi-Wan lives on Tatooine. Reva had to kidnap Leia to draw Obi-Wan out of hiding, but she encountered him on Daiyu, not Tatooine. Reva also learned that Luke was on Tatooine but not that Obi-Wan has been living there too. And she didn’t share that info with Vader since he’d already left her for dead.




Right. They went to Tatooine to look for a Jedi and that other one just happened to be there at the same time. And Reva learned something about a boy that Owen was hiding, but unless she took the time to get the message fixed and heard the whole thing off-camera (I hate assuming anything canon happens off-camera), all she had was the broken-up part of the message that was still audible. And I am pretty sure nothing in that part said anything about "the boy" being Vader's kid, though she would have at least sensed he was Force-sensitive as she as chasing him. And since Obi-wan did show up at the end and was face to face with her when she returned with Luke, I think she is smart enough to at least assume that Obi-wan was staying on Tatooine and watching over him.


----------



## pukunui

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And since Obi-wan did show up at the end and was face to face with her when she returned with Luke, I think she is smart enough to at least assume that Obi-wan was staying on Tatooine and watching over him.



Yeah, and honestly I'm fine with that. Reva doesn't factor into the original trilogy, so she obviously never goes back to the Inquisitorius, and thus the Empire doesn't ever find out that Obi-Wan is on Tatooine or that Luke is Vader's son until after he blows up the Death Star.

I'm not sure what a Reva-centered spin-off show would be about, but I expect she'd be on the run from her fellow inquisitors, and there'd be some close calls where they almost find out but ultimately don't -- a recurring theme throughout the Clone Wars cartoon.


One thing I particularly appreciated from this episode was hearing Vader say that Obi-Wan wasn't responsible for his "death" as Anakin, that he'd done it to himself. That ties in nicely with Obi-Wan telling Luke that Vader had killed his father in _A New Hope_. It makes that line less of a deliberate lie on Obi-Wan's part.


----------



## Older Beholder

Loved that last episode. 
As great as the fight between Vader and Kenobi was, and it was amazing, I think the dialogue at the end of it between them was some of the best TV all year and some of the best Star Wars Disney has produced.


----------



## RangerWickett

As one reviewer put it, it was a hat on a hat. Like, it was fine, I suppose, but I already have a hat. This provided almost nothing I didn't already have.

We got to see Ewan and Hayden get another crack at these characters, and they did _great_, and yes, I think we got some good lines and good symbolism . . . except that Filoni already tapped this well in Star Wars Rebels. I suppose it's nice to get a 'mask cut open to reveal Anakin's scarred face' scene for all the folks who'll never watch that cartoon.

And we got a nice light saber fight, except that it had zero stakes because we know basically how it has to turn out. And the 'suddenly deciding that he will stop losing because he remembers oh yeah other people matter' trope was not that well-delivered.

There was a lot of slipshod storytelling and film-making here. From crappy rooftop parkour, to an injured Obi-Wan being dragged away by a droid while a bunch of storm troopers apparently can't be bothered to shoot at it because there's a fire in the way, to Vader sending down a small squad of dudes to lay siege to a base, to the people in said base using barely any cover and yet not being hit in the ensuing gun fight, to a Star Destroyer not being able to run down a freighter (or sending fighters to blow it up), to Reva apparently discovering 'Force teleportation' so she could get to Tatooine . . . there were weird moments that could have been avoided if someone cared to avoid them.

The Mandalorian didn't have these weird gaps in logic (aside from that pointless 'you must scan your face' moment in the imperial base), so I don't know why this show did. 

Disney needs to stop eating its own tail. Do this same story with a different set of people hiding from the inquisitors, and don't rely on the cast of the previous movies to drive the plot, and it would immediately become a better series. That's why Star Wars Rebels worked.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

So _there_ was where they digitally mixed Hayden and JEJ's voices.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

trappedslider said:


> My biggest problem with the episode was that Vader didn't say "Now I have the high ground"



I was disappointed that, after ordering his star destroyer to intensify fire, he didn't dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back Kenobi's body.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> I'm not sure what a Reva-centered spin-off show would be about,



She might wander into Andor.


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> She might wander into Andor.



That could be interesting!


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Kenobi series 2: a buddy comedy, in which Hondo "We are friends, aren't we?" Ohnaka drags Kenobi off on a madcap treasure hunt.

After all, now he has decided he doesn't he need to keep such a close eye on Luke, he has plenty of time to kill.


----------



## Hussar

RangerWickett said:


> Filoni already tapped this well in Star Wars Rebels



Who did what where?

Oh, was there a cartoon that I missed?  Possibly.  

People have to remember that these shows are not meant for hardcore fans that have devoured every single thing Star Wars for the past twenty years or more.  They're for people like me who watch it from time to time.  

This applies to every single IP out there, be it Star Wars or Star Trek or Marvel or anything else.  If you are someone who devours this stuff and has watched every single episode of Clone Wars and every single episode of Rebels and read the books and played the video games, these movies/shows are not for you.  You will not like them because they are made for me - the fairly casual fan who likes Star Wars and will watch it or not as the mood takes.

It's just a fact of life.

I mean, I watched the Mandalorian without actually knowing what a Mandalorian was.  Never watched Clone Wars.  Had only the vaguest idea what a Mandalorian was and when those other Mandalorians showed up with the painted helmets and Starbuck leading the pack, I had zero idea and zero interest in who they were or where they came from.  They weren't part of the story I was watching.  

I have to put up with stuff like Tonoka Ahsoko (again, who?  Who cares?) showing up in my Mandalorian show, so, you get to put up with the times that they retread ground.


----------



## Older Beholder

Hussar said:


> Who did what where?
> 
> Oh, was there a cartoon that I missed?  Possibly.
> 
> People have to remember that these shows are not meant for hardcore fans that have devoured every single thing Star Wars for the past twenty years or more.  They're for people like me who watch it from time to time.




Not to mention kids who might be watching Star Wars for the first time.
For what it's worth, I thought it did a good job of adding value to the original trilogy. I was a little worried when young Leia showed up in the first episode, but by the end I thought they did a great job with it.

Also, one of my favourite things about Disney Star Wars is the way they combine the visual aesthetics of the prequels and the original trilogy. That aspect was particularly strong with this series. They created some iconic imagery, especially with that last episode.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Hussar said:


> People have to remember that these shows are not meant for hardcore fans that have devoured every single thing Star Wars for the past twenty years or more. They're for people like me who watch it from time to time.



I'm pretty sure one of the things the Disney+ shows are meant to do is encourage people to watch the animated shows: also availabe through your Disney+ subscription.


The Lizard Wizard said:


> Not to mention kids who might be watching Star Wars for the first time.



Probably watched The Clone Wars before they saw ANH.


----------



## pukunui

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Also, one of my favourite things about Disney Star Wars is the way they combine the visual aesthetics of the prequels and the original trilogy. That aspect was particularly strong with this series. They created some iconic imagery, especially with that last episode.



I feel like this last episode also invoked _The Last Jedi _in its positioning of Obi-Wan with his back to a wall vs Darth Vader approaching across an open plain, only it was inverted with Obi-Wan on the left and Vader on the right (whereas TLJ had Luke on the right and Kylo on the left.)


----------



## RangerWickett

Hussar said:


> People have to remember that these shows are not meant for hardcore fans that have devoured every single thing Star Wars for the past twenty years or more.  They're for people like me who watch it from time to time.




You seem to have read my comment as if I thought only 'hardcore' fans should get shows. That's not it at all. I actually said, 



			
				Me said:
			
		

> I suppose it's nice to get a 'mask cut open to reveal Anakin's scarred face' scene for all the folks who'll never watch that cartoon.




See? I don't get bothered if people haven't seen everything in the franchise.

What I'm bothered by, though, is that this is a big marquee production, and it wasn't well done. It's wholly possible to make a show for casual fans that's actually tightly written and produced. The Mandalorian did that really well. This show didn't.


----------



## delericho

I enjoyed the episode, mostly, as I've enjoyed the show, mostly.

My one big problem with it is that Obi-wan had the beating of Vader, again, and walked away leaving him alive, again. Given that he is (as far as he knows) one of only two Jedi masters left alive, and given that Vader represents a huge danger both to the galaxy as a whole and to Luke and Leia in particular, shouldn't he have finished the job?

(And, funnily enough, the producers had a way out of that already built in - all they needed to do was bring his "Luke's in danger!" vision forward by a few seconds, and he suddenly has a really good reason to leave the job half-done.)


----------



## Paul Farquhar

delericho said:


> shouldn't he have finished the job?



No. Because in that case, Reva should have finished the job. That was the whole point of the sequence. Being unable to take a life is not weakness.


----------



## Hussar

There's always been a pretty strong element of mercy in the Jedi depictions.  Sort of a Lord of the Rings "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then donot be too eager to deal out death in judgement" element has always been in the series.  Plus, the fact that Anakin is actually the one to kill the Emperor in the end, killing Vader here wouldn't actually accomplish anything and likely would have made things far, far worse.

After all, if Vader dies, then someone else becomes the Emperor's new apprentice.  Someone with no connections whatsoever to the Skywalkers and someone who just blows the Millennium Falcon out of the air rather than letting it escape.  Or some such thing.  It's pretty much on message for Obi-wan not to finish Vader off.  

Which, like @Paul Farquhar says, is nicely mirrored by the fact that Reva can't do it either, even though, realistically, she probably should.  Allowing the child of Anakin Skywalker to survive is an incredibly dangerous thing.  If Luke had turned to the Dark Side, things would have gone very, very badly for everyone.  



			
				@Rangerwicket said:
			
		

> What I'm bothered by, though, is that this is a big marquee production, and it wasn't well done. It's wholly possible to make a show for casual fans that's actually tightly written and produced.




Meh, I'm not seeing the problems here.  It was fun.  It was more than good enough to make me actually look forward to watching it when it came out - the first Star Wars production where that's been true in decades.  I liked the characters, liked the story, and found the writing and acting to be pretty good.  Certainly as good as Star Wars gets.  

Do people actually watch Star Wars for the writing and the plot?  Seriously?


----------



## Benjamin Olson

That was a great finale to the most satisfying Star Wars prequel we've gotten so far. Yeah, there's things to quibble with here or there, but at the end of the day it tied up all the loose ends the series had efficiently with solid emotional payoffs. Series finales are rarely this good, all things considered, even when they don't also have to work around a bunch of established canon.

There were dumb things in every episode, but all and all I really love this series. It seemed to flesh out the characters of the original trilogy, without causing any serious continuity issues, while also making the prequel trilogy feel more meaningfully connected to the original. 

On the whole it was possibly my favorite Star Wars thing outside of the original trilogy, and definitely my favorite addition to the core "Skywalker Saga" narrative.



delericho said:


> My one big problem with it is that Obi-wan had the beating of Vader, again, and walked away leaving him alive, again. Given that he is (as far as he knows) one of only two Jedi masters left alive, and given that Vader represents a huge danger both to the galaxy as a whole and to Luke and Leia in particular, shouldn't he have finished the job?




No, but a line or two referencing the consequence of that decision and the reasoning probably would have made it seem less irresponsible. I can accept that Kenobi can't bring himself to kill even the husk that once was Anakin, who was basically a brother, a son, and a best friend all wrapped up into one for him, and I think McGreggor's acting and what we know of the relationship almost tells that story and explains that decision well enough, but an actual line spelling it out a bit more might have been good. I think not explaining and letting the audience ponder could be better with comparable characters in a different series, but given that everyone knows he couldn't kill Vader here for continuity reasons, the character reasoning probably should have been spelled out better so it doesn't seem like an overly convenient decision.

That said the dialogue between Vader and Kenobi here was excellent as is, and I'd hesitate to change any of it.


----------



## Mezuka

'Hello there!' 

Loved the Obi-Wan series. Now I want to see a Reva series.


----------



## delericho

Paul Farquhar said:


> No. Because in that case, Reva should have finished the job.



The difference being that Luke is a helpless innocent. Vader is an armed and dangerous mass-murderer who _will_ do it again - he's literally just said he's not going to stop. And as far as Obi-wan knows this may be the _only_ chance anyone ever gets to deal with him.



Paul Farquhar said:


> Being unable to take a life is not weakness.



The Jedi took hundreds of lives in the Clone Wars. Even in this series, Obi-wan has killed multiple stormtroopers without a second thought. He's quite capable of taking a life.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

delericho said:


> The Jedi took hundreds of lives in the Clone Wars.



And it led to the destruction of the order. It's pretty clear in the narrative that the jedi where wrong to allow themselves to be sucked into the Clone War.


delericho said:


> And as far as Obi-wan knows this may be the _only_ chance anyone ever gets to deal with him.



The Force will deal with him. It's called _faith_, the thing Kenobi just got back.


----------



## damiller

delericho said:


> The difference being that Luke is a helpless innocent. Vader is an armed and dangerous mass-murderer who _will_ do it again - he's literally just said he's not going to stop. And as far as Obi-wan knows this may be the _only_ chance anyone ever gets to deal with him.
> 
> 
> The Jedi took hundreds of lives in the Clone Wars. Even in this series, Obi-wan has killed multiple stormtroopers without a second thought. He's quite capable of taking a life.



I see it in the same vein as Gollum in Lord of the Rings.

It was not Frodo that destroyed the ring, it was Gollum.

Had Frodo killed Gollum, the ring would not have been destroyed. He played a pivotal part in its destruction. Hence Gandalf's warning noted upthread.

Vader is Gollum. If not for him, the Emperor (as noted up thread) would not have been killed. We know that because we've seen it.

In way not killing Vader is the reverse of Christ. Folks begged him to not kill himself. To stay around and heal and bless. And at least to Christians - if he had actually done that, it would have been a disaster. Oh sure, the 100s of thousands he could have helped in 1st century. But what about the billions since then? Ok. Vader killed many people, but how many did he save by "ending" the Emperor?

Yes Kenobi could have killed him. he knows how. But discretion, isn't it the better part of valor? And in the end is that what makes him different from Vader?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Benjamin Olson said:


> a line or two referencing the consequence of that decision and the reasoning probably would have made it seem less irresponsible



"You were the chosen one."


----------



## delericho

Paul Farquhar said:


> "You were the chosen one."



When Obi-wan delivers that line in RotS he believes that he _has_ killed Vader. He's surprised when Reva lets slip that Vader's still alive.


----------



## Bolares

Paul Farquhar said:


> Probably watched The Clone Wars before they saw ANH.



I'd say probably no one who saw the Clone Wars is a kid anymore


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Bolares said:


> I'd say probably no one who saw the Clone Wars is a kid anymore



I can think of a couple of kids who are currently watching it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

delericho said:


> When Obi-wan delivers that line in RotS he believes that he _has_ killed Vader. He's surprised when Reva lets slip that Vader's still alive.



Which is the point. It's where Kenobi loses the faith he regains in this show.


----------



## Bolares

delericho said:


> When Obi-wan delivers that line in RotS he believes that he _has_ killed Vader. He's surprised when Reva lets slip that Vader's still alive.



He believes he gave vader a mortal wound and left him to die. Even then Obi-wan couldn't give the mortal blow. It took everything from him, in the heat of the battle to do what he did in RotS, it's completelly in character for him to not be able to do it now.


----------



## Bolares

Paul Farquhar said:


> I can think of a couple of kids who are currently watching it.



I meant to say "almost no one" sorry


----------



## Morrus

I feel like the Qui Gonn  encounter should have been before the Vader fight. Classic pep talk, Kenobi goes back in full of faith.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Bolares said:


> I meant to say "almost no one" sorry



I think you will find it's a popular show on Disney+, and where most youngsters are first introduced to the Star Wars saga. There being some stuff in the live action movies some parents would be reluctant to let younger children watch.

The is some pretty dark stuff in TCW too, but not at the start, and being animation tends to slip under the parental radar.


----------



## Bolares

Morrus said:


> I feel like the Qui Gonn  encounter should have been before the Vader fight. Classic pep talk, Kenobi goes back in full of faith.



When watching I was expecting that too, but thinking about it later, I think it would have taken from the catharsis and healing Obi-wan did by himself. I like that he overcame his trauma and reconnected with the force by himself.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

An important point about the Star Wars universe is it is a metaphysical universe.  Whatever you believe in the real universe, good and evil, fate and destiny are very real things in Star Wars. And striking someone down in cold blood is definitely a dark side (i.e. evil) action, and leads directly to Anakin's fall. Anakin strikes down Dooku, Mace Windu tries to strike down Sidious.

Grey pragmatism may work in real life, but in the Star Wars universe no good can come of it.


----------



## billd91

delericho said:


> The Jedi took hundreds of lives in the Clone Wars. Even in this series, Obi-wan has killed multiple stormtroopers without a second thought. He's quite capable of taking a life.



The Jedi, including Obi-Wan, killed opponents in battle - they didn't execute them. There's a key difference there.


----------



## delericho

billd91 said:


> The Jedi, including Obi-Wan, killed opponents in battle - they didn't execute them. There's a key difference there.



And, again, Vader was _armed and dangerous_ in the scene in question.


----------



## Bolares

delericho said:


> And, again, Vader was _armed and dangerous_ in the scene in question.



He was on all fours, having real trouble breathing and clearly not offering any resistance.


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> I feel like the Qui Gonn  encounter should have been before the Vader fight. Classic pep talk, Kenobi goes back in full of faith.



It felt more like a quest reward, to me. You have completed the quest, so you now get to speak to your dead friend.


----------



## Ryujin

Paul Farquhar said:


> An important point about the Star Wars universe is it is a metaphysical universe.  Whatever you believe in the real universe, good and evil, fate and destiny are very real things in Star Wars. And striking someone down in cold blood is definitely a dark side (i.e. evil) action, and leads directly to Anakin's fall. Anakin strikes down Dooku, Mace Windu tries to strike down Sidious.
> 
> Grey pragmatism may work in real life, but in the Star Wars universe no good can come of it.



And you see, that's why trying to pseudo-science it up with "midichlorians", in the prequels, just fell flat with me. Leave it as Science Fantasy, where some things are just unknowable or fantastic.


----------



## Bolares

Ryujin said:


> It felt more like a quest reward, to me. You have completed the quest, so you now get to speak to your dead friend.



You reconnected fully with the force, is at peace with your past, and relinquisehd anger and guilt, now you can talk to force ghosts


----------



## MarkB

Bolares said:


> You reconnected fully with the force, is at peace with your past, and relinquisehd anger and guilt, now you can talk to force ghosts



And, crucially, begin to unlock your own Force Ghost powers, which you'll want once you take up the inherently fatal profession of protagonist's mentor.


----------



## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> And, crucially, begin to unlock your own Force Ghost powers, which you'll want once you take up the inherently fatal profession of protagonist's mentor.



Other than Yoda, Obi Wan probably had the longest lifespan of any Jedi


----------



## Maxperson

pukunui said:


> OK that was a satisfying ending.
> 
> Obi-Wan schools Anakin one last time. The voice effects there were cool.
> 
> Reva is still alive and could easily get her own spin-off show.
> 
> Stuff happened in this show without really changing the status quo of what comes later, although it did perhaps fill in some gaps. So that was cool.
> 
> I would not mind seeing more of Ewan as Obi-Wan. He does a good job.
> 
> Also, that final scene!



I just want to know how Reva can get up from being stabbed through the abdomen, find her transport(and have it still be there), and fly to Tatooine all before the empire finishes firing at the escaping transport.  Then the transport lands, the fight happens, and Obi-Wan gets to Tatooine in time to see her with Luke.  

Loved the episode, but it played loose with timing a bit too much.


----------



## Maxperson

delericho said:


> I enjoyed the episode, mostly, as I've enjoyed the show, mostly.
> 
> My one big problem with it is that Obi-wan had the beating of Vader, again, and walked away leaving him alive, again. Given that he is (as far as he knows) one of only two Jedi masters left alive, and given that Vader represents a huge danger both to the galaxy as a whole and to Luke and Leia in particular, shouldn't he have finished the job?
> 
> (And, funnily enough, the producers had a way out of that already built in - all they needed to do was bring his "Luke's in danger!" vision forward by a few seconds, and he suddenly has a really good reason to leave the job half-done.)



Yeah.  I had the same reaction to him walking away in that manner.  I also wondered why Vader walked away after burying Kenobi. He had to know that Kenobi was still alive as he'd have felt the death if it had happened. You don't walk away from a powerful Jedi Master like that when you know it's possible for him to escape and you want him dead.


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> No. Because in that case, Reva should have finished the job. That was the whole point of the sequence. Being unable to take a life is not weakness.



I think there's a big difference between killing a Sith that just convinced you that the good inside him was dead, and who is going to continue to murder more Jedi and innocents, and the murder of a helpless child.


----------



## Retreater

If you've read anything I've posted on these boards, you should know that I notoriously hate most stuff. I am very hard on Star Wars - even though it was my favorite series when I was a kid, I didn't like the prequels, sequels, Rogue One, Solo, the Clone Wars series, or most other stuff. 

I had no problems with Obi-Wan Kenobi. I thought the story was coherent, the action was good, the acting was passable (and certainly better than any performance in the entire prequel series). I don't understand the hate people have with Reva - the actress did fine. I suppose maybe her delivery and accent seemed more "modern American" than other actors in the franchise - and maybe that felt out of place. But you know what - I prefer that to the stilted, faux Shakespearean accents and wooden delivery from  the prequel trilogy.



Maxperson said:


> I just want to know how Reva can get up from being stabbed through the abdomen, find her transport(and have it still be there), and fly to Tatooine all before the empire finishes firing at the escaping transport. Then the transport lands, the fight happens, and Obi-Wan gets to Tatooine in time to see her with Luke.
> 
> Loved the episode, but it played loose with timing a bit too much.



I don't know? Maybe the same way Luke got from Dagobah to Cloud City in a matter of an hour in Empire Strikes Back? 
Star Wars has always played it loose with the timing. It's a modern myth with roots in serialized sci-fi from the 1930s. It's not realistic science-fiction.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Maxperson said:


> I think there's a big difference between killing a Sith that just convinced you that the good inside him was dead, and who is going to continue to murder more Jedi and innocents, and the murder of a helpless child.



Mace Windu thought that too, and look how that turned out.


----------



## Stalker0

The Obi-Wan leaving Vadar alive didn't bother me, because that's just star wars. It uses the same logic as comic books, once the bad guy is on their knees they are invincible from the good guys. It also seems baked into the jedi code.

Ultimately now having watched the full series the only two scenes that still bother me are:

1) The fire scene where obi-wan escapes because....there is a small pool of fire that is easy to walk around (like I can literally see the edge).
2) The freighter taking more hits from a star destroyer than a capital ship can tank. I mean....please, at least try to sell it to me. Just give me a throw away line, "this freighter is heavily armored and packed with shields, but it still won't hold forever", something to make that remotely believalbe.

I know a lot of people will point to the Leia chase scene, and yes its super awkward. To me its the same "one with the force" logic as why storm troopers never hit the good guys, the bad guys just couldn't grab leia because the force was with her.


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> Mace Windu thought that too, and look how that turned out.



Bad writing is bad.  Had Windu just pushed his saber forward 2 inches instead of taking a wide swing, this wouldn't have been happening.  With the death of Sidious, Anakin might have been savable right then and if not, he'd not have been able to take over the way Sidious did.


----------



## Retreater

Maxperson said:


> Bad writing is bad. Had Windu just pushed his saber forward 2 inches instead of taking a wide swing, this wouldn't have been happening. With the death of Sidious, Anakin might have been savable right then and if not, he'd not have been able to take over the way Sidious did.



Yeah, but then we wouldn't have had Episodes IV-VI and Episodes I-III wouldn't have been made at all. Stars Wars as a franchise would cease to exist.
So I guess it's good that Palpatine rose to power?


----------



## Maxperson

Retreater said:


> Yeah, but then we wouldn't have had Episodes IV-VI and Episodes I-III wouldn't have been made at all. Stars Wars as a franchise would cease to exist.
> So I guess it's good that Palpatine rose to power?



I'm all for setting things up so that he failed, but at least write in something plausible.  If you have a Sith Lord at saber point like that and you're going to kill him, you don't take chances.


----------



## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> I just want to know how Reva can get up from being stabbed through the abdomen, find her transport(and have it still be there), and fly to Tatooine all before the empire finishes firing at the escaping transport.  Then the transport lands, the fight happens, and Obi-Wan gets to Tatooine in time to see her with Luke.
> 
> Loved the episode, but it played loose with timing a bit too much.



Reva was in the hangar along with the decoy transport ship Vader ripped up. Now obviously she's not going anywhere in that, but we know the transport that did escape had a hyperspace-capable landing craft, so it's reasonable that the other one would have done too.

And what's wrong with the timing? Reva needs extra time to cope with her grievous stab wound, find Owen's farm and then dramatically wait for nightfall, while Obi-wan needs extra time to decide to leave the otherwise-doomed transport, wait while the landing craft is prepared, have a few heartfelt conversations, play tag with a star destroyer, land on a planet and have a protracted fight with his former pupil. No particular reason why one should take any longer than the other.


----------



## Myrdin Potter

Anakin killing the helpless Count Dooku was a big step towards the dark side. Jedi don’t kill helpless foes.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Maxperson said:


> I'm all for setting things up so that he failed, but at least write in something plausible.  If you have a Sith Lord at saber point like that and you're going to kill him, you don't take chances.



And then you go to the dark side and become a Sith Lord yourself and nothing is achieved.

I think you may have missed the memo about Star Wars being a morality play.


----------



## Ryujin

Paul Farquhar said:


> And then you go to the dark side and become a Sith Lord yourself and nothing is achieved.
> 
> I think you may have missed the memo about Star Wars being a morality play.



That brings to mind the old adage, "If you kill a murderer, then the number of murderers remains unchanged."
... and the retort, "Not if I kill a _LOT_ of murderers."


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> That brings to mind the old adage, "If you kill a murderer, then the number of murderers remains unchanged."
> ... and the retort, "Not if I kill a _LOT_ of murderers."



Destroy the universe, and you get ALL the murderers!


----------



## Imaculata

I liked it. I wanted to see a Qui Gon force ghost, and I got it at the end. I really liked the scene where Obi Wan cuts half of Vaders helmet off, and we see mutilated Hayden inside. They did that perfectly.

Some of the screens in the dark scenes were a bit too obvious, but overall really well done. I also really liked the way they did the sound effects in this episode. Both the light sabers and Vaders voice combined with that of Hayden. Really well done. Reva's motivation for sparing Luke was a bit weak, but the actress did pretty well.

I wouldn't mind seeing further adventures of Obi Wan. Maybe a Fallen Order cross over of sorts? Timeline wise that would work.


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> And then you go to the dark side and become a Sith Lord yourself and nothing is achieved.



This is not true. There is no hate, anger or fear in killing the Sith, so no dark side.  You can kill the enemy in the situation that Windu was in.


----------



## delericho

Actually, never mind. I'm better off out of this thread.


----------



## Zardnaar

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Not to mention kids who might be watching Star Wars for the first time.
> For what it's worth, I thought it did a good job of adding value to the original trilogy. I was a little worried when young Leia showed up in the first episode, but by the end I thought they did a great job with it.
> 
> Also, one of my favourite things about Disney Star Wars is the way they combine the visual aesthetics of the prequels and the original trilogy. That aspect was particularly strong with this series. They created some iconic imagery, especially with that last episode.




 The visuals and lighting were great imho.


----------



## Zardnaar

delericho said:


> I enjoyed the episode, mostly, as I've enjoyed the show, mostly.
> 
> My one big problem with it is that Obi-wan had the beating of Vader, again, and walked away leaving him alive, again. Given that he is (as far as he knows) one of only two Jedi masters left alive, and given that Vader represents a huge danger both to the galaxy as a whole and to Luke and Leia in particular, shouldn't he have finished the job?
> 
> (And, funnily enough, the producers had a way out of that already built in - all they needed to do was bring his "Luke's in danger!" vision forward by a few seconds, and he suddenly has a really good reason to leave the job half-done.)




 Destiny. The force knows. Kill Vader who takes out the Emperor? Luke's to weak.


----------



## Zardnaar

Overall I liked the show. Probably slightly better than Solo not as good as Rebels, Mando's in S tier.


----------



## Hussar

Stalker0 said:


> 2) The freighter taking more hits from a star destroyer than a capital ship can tank. I mean....please, at least try to sell it to me. Just give me a throw away line, "this freighter is heavily armored and packed with shields, but it still won't hold forever", something to make that remotely believalbe.



Weren't they trying to take the ship, rather than blow it out of space?  As in Vader wanted Obi-Wan alive.  I'm pretty sure they were firing to keep the pressure on, not to blow the ship up.  

It's not like they could go anywhere, they had no hyperdrive and absolutely couldn't escape.  So, why not just slap them around a bit until they surrender/their engines fail?  

Granted, that doesn't explain why they didn't use a tractor beam...    Do Star Destroyers have tractor beams?  Has that ever been shown in the movies?


----------



## Zardnaar

Hussar said:


> Weren't they trying to take the ship, rather than blow it out of space?  As in Vader wanted Obi-Wan alive.  I'm pretty sure they were firing to keep the pressure on, not to blow the ship up.
> 
> It's not like they could go anywhere, they had no hyperdrive and absolutely couldn't escape.  So, why not just slap them around a bit until they surrender/their engines fail?
> 
> Granted, that doesn't explain why they didn't use a tractor beam...    Do Star Destroyers have tractor beams?  Has that ever been shown in the movies?




 ANH Tantive IV iirc.


----------



## pukunui

Hussar said:


> Granted, that doesn't explain why they didn't use a tractor beam...    Do Star Destroyers have tractor beams?  Has that ever been shown in the movies?



Possibly not.



Zardnaar said:


> ANH Tantive IV iirc.



Thanks to the wonders of Disney+, I just rewatched the opening of ANH. After the _Tantive IV_'s engines are blown, it cuts to the people and droids on board listening to ominous metallic sounds. It then jumps back outside to show the _Tantive IV _holding still while the Star Destroy maneuvers over it into position to grab it with its docking clamps. So no, I don't think that particular Star Destroyer at least had a tractor beam.

Even if some do have them, I suspect they'd be much shorter range than the one/s on the Death Star.


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> Possibly not.
> 
> 
> Thanks to the wonders of Disney+, I just rewatched the opening of ANH. After the _Tantive IV_'s engines are blown, it cuts to the people and droids on board listening to ominous metallic sounds. It then jumps back outside to show the _Tantive IV _holding still while the Star Destroy maneuvers over it into position to grab it with its docking clamps. So no, I don't think that particular Star Destroyer at least had a tractor beam.
> 
> Even if some do have them, I suspect they'd be much shorter range than the one/s on the Death Star.



The Empire Strikes Back seems to confirm that. Vader's super star destroyer does have a tractor beam, but it takes them ages to rig it, and they don't even try to use it until the Falcon is practically scraping their hull.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

If you have flown a Tie Defender in the Tie Fighter game, the tractor beam is pretty short range. Well short of a capital ship's main guns. And Rebels made the Tie Defender canon.


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> This is not true. There is no hate, anger or fear in killing the Sith, so no dark side.  You can kill the enemy in the situation that Windu was in.



Are you telling me that there would be no hate, anger of fear in kenobi killing vader? All but the last fight between them were all about hate anger and fear.


----------



## Rabulias

Bolares said:


> Are you telling me that there would be no hate, anger of fear in kenobi killing vader? All but the last fight between them were all about hate anger and fear.



I would say that Obi-Wan was motivated more by his duty to defend the Republic in their previous fight. He literally warned Anakin about the high ground, still not wanting to kill his former padawan.

Killing Vader in this episode could have been seen as a mercy killing out of pity, seeing the pain and self-hatred that Vader has.


----------



## Zaukrie

Wow. My wife and I hated it. Also, you let Vader live? Someone actively hunting and killing innocent people? Why even bother fighting evil at all? Just let them live and let them be free to keep killing innocent people. Gollum was not actively hunting anyone. Not the same at all. 

Guess I was right last week, Vader can be beaten, he's not invincible.... But I enjoyed being kicked for suggesting that.


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> Are you telling me that there would be no hate, anger of fear in kenobi killing vader? All but the last fight between them were all about hate anger and fear.



I didn't see any hate, anger or fear in Kenobi. Not in that last fight anyway.  I saw love, sadness at the loss of his friend and disappointment. Kenobi had resolved his issues and gotten his powers back.


----------



## Zaukrie

Paul Farquhar said:


> An important point about the Star Wars universe is it is a metaphysical universe.  Whatever you believe in the real universe, good and evil, fate and destiny are very real things in Star Wars. And striking someone down in cold blood is definitely a dark side (i.e. evil) action, and leads directly to Anakin's fall. Anakin strikes down Dooku, Mace Windu tries to strike down Sidious.
> 
> Grey pragmatism may work in real life, but in the Star Wars universe no good can come of it.



Why stop him from killing anyone, if you are going to let him live to keep doing it? It's the same thing. He knows he'll keep killing, over and over. Why stop him while he's killing, it's effectively the same thing.


----------



## Mannahnin

Zaukrie said:


> Gollum was not actively hunting anyone. Not the same at all.



Gollum was a murderer, who was actively hunting Frodo, at least...


----------



## Zaukrie

Mannahnin said:


> Gollum was a murderer, who was actively hunting Frodo, at least...



Not even close, and we both know it. Vader is hunting across the whole galaxy, killing everyone with force powers, and every rebel he can. Gollum is hunting the person that stole something from him. So, no. Not close.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Gollum eats children.


----------



## Zaukrie

Of course, we're missing the point that Obi is letting a murderer, who will keep killing, live. He knows he'll keep killing. He not only lets him live, he doesn't take his life support, and put him in jail, or something. Anything to keep him from killing and killing. He just walks away and let's him keep killing 

We would have vastly preferred that they not fight a second time, and Vader would have won.


----------



## Stalker0

Paul Farquhar said:


> Gollum eats children.



So does Baby Yoda


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Amazing how something as simple as Star Wars can go right over some people's heads.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> So does Baby Yoda



This guy?


----------



## Zaukrie

Paul Farquhar said:


> Amazing how something as simple as Star Wars can go right over some people's heads.



Or that people can disagree with a plot point, and that it isn't about ignorance....


----------



## Imaculata

To me, it seemed Obi Wan was shocked to see what his friend had become; perhaps a fate worse than death. Vader, trapped in his own suit. I think that stayed his hand.


----------



## Maxperson

Zaukrie said:


> Of course, we're missing the point that Obi is letting a murderer, who will keep killing, live. He knows he'll keep killing. He not only lets him live, he doesn't take his life support, and put him in jail, or something. Anything to keep him from killing and killing. He just walks away and let's him keep killing
> 
> We would have vastly preferred that they not fight a second time, and Vader would have won.



No.  He had to fight Vader and kick Vader hard or Vader's line in Star Wars, "I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now, I am the master." would not have made sense.  What they should have done, though, is bring in the Inquisitors or some other overwhelming force that would have made Obi-Wan run and have to leave Vader alive.


----------



## Morrus

Yeah, Obi Wan has to win the last fight before ANH for that film to make sense.


----------



## Ryujin

Zaukrie said:


> Of course, we're missing the point that Obi is letting a murderer, who will keep killing, live. He knows he'll keep killing. He not only lets him live, he doesn't take his life support, and put him in jail, or something. Anything to keep him from killing and killing. He just walks away and let's him keep killing
> 
> We would have vastly preferred that they not fight a second time, and Vader would have won.



It's an old school morality play. The evil guys have to be really evil and the good guys have to be squeaky-clean. White Hats only, non Grey. If Vader was killed with one stroke, that's one thing. Killing him when he's helpless is quite another.


----------



## Zaukrie

Ryujin said:


> It's an old school morality play. The evil guys have to be really evil and the good guys have to be squeaky-clean. White Hats only, non Grey. If Vader was killed with one stroke, that's one thing. Killing him when he's helpless is quite another.



How is letting him walk away to keep killing a good act?


----------



## RuinousPowers

Maxperson said:


> No.  He had to fight Vader and kick Vader hard or Vader's line in Star Wars, "I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now, I am the master." would not have made sense.  What they should have done, though, is bring in the Inquisitors or some other overwhelming force that would have made Obi-Wan run and have to leave Vader alive.



It still doesn't really make as much sense as them just not meeting at all between RotS and ANH. 

Since nothing Vader said actually implies that they fought at all, just that they are meeting again after he fell to the Dark Side. 

So much has been retconned and added to over they years that all the original dialog doesn't make a whole lot of sense anymore, unless everyone is just lying all the time.


----------



## Ryujin

Zaukrie said:


> How is letting him walk away to keep killing a good act?



Because, like I said, it's an old school morality play. Doing an evil act, for a good outcome, isn't considered good.


----------



## Stalker0

Zaukrie said:


> How is letting him walk away to keep killing a good act?



So something we have to remember....a Jedi's morality is not the same as standard human morality. Remember that these people wield powers normal humans can only dream of, and they literally have this "voice" in their head that seems to whisper its will to them. They get visions of crazy possible futures, etc etc. Aka there is nothing "normal" about being a force user.

It comes down to...killing a defenseless person leads to the dark side. Why does it....well why is water wet? That is apparently how the force works, you just learn to accept that just like you learn to accept gravity. I'm sure Jedi would prefer it didn't, it would make certain things so much easier....but thems the brakes.


----------



## Zaukrie

Ryujin said:


> Because, like I said, it's an old school morality play. Doing an evil act, for a good outcome, isn't considered good.



That's assuming killing evil is an evil act . Is it? Or, trying to imprison him (admitting I have no idea how that works in star wars, but in theory is an option).


----------



## Zaukrie

Zaukrie said:


> That's assuming killing evil is an evil act . Is it? Or, trying to imprison him (admitting I have no idea how that works in star wars, but in theory is an option).



It's like being required to be tolerant of hate, in the name of tolerance. I'm not required to do that.


----------



## Ryujin

Zaukrie said:


> That's assuming killing evil is an evil act . Is it? Or, trying to imprison him (admitting I have no idea how that works in star wars, but in theory is an option).



Killing isn't an evil act, in and of itself. _MURDER_ is. Like I said, old school. @Stalker0 has also made a very valid point on the matter.

If you can't accept either of those, then how about, "Because Vader has to be alive in 'A New Hope'"?


----------



## Zaukrie

Ryujin said:


> Killing isn't an evil act, in and of itself. _MURDER_ is. Like I said, old school. @Stalker0 has also made a very valid point on the matter.
> 
> If you can't accept either of those, then how about, "Because Vader has to be alive in 'A New Hope'"?



Hence my desire that something keeps Obi from killing him. Like the idea above about others coming to save Vader. That would humiliate him and make him hate Obi even more. 

Don't both Obi and Yoda tell Luke he has to kill Vader? Or am I recalling that wrong?


----------



## Ryujin

Zaukrie said:


> Hence my desire that something keeps Obi from killing him. Like the idea above about others coming to save Vader. That would humiliate him and make him hate Obi even more.
> 
> Don't both Obi and Yoda tell Luke he has to kill Vader? Or am I recalling that wrong?



I can't remember if Obi Wan said anything, but IIRC Yoda said that Luke must "confront" Vader.


----------



## Nikosandros

Ryujin said:


> I can't remember if Obi Wan said anything, but IIRC Yoda said that Luke must "confront" Vader.



In RotJ Luke tells Obi Wan that he can't kill his own father and the reply is: "Then the Emperor has already won".


----------



## Maxperson

Stalker0 said:


> It comes down to...killing a defenseless person leads to the dark side.



Where is this ever said?  Hate. Anger. Fear.  Those things lead to the dark side.  Killing a defenseless Sith Lord who had already murdered thousands and will murder many more in order to prevent innocents from dying?  I don't remember that being on the list of things that lead to the dark side.


Stalker0 said:


> Why does it....well why is water wet?



Water isn't wet. Water makes things wet.


----------



## Davies

Zaukrie said:


> Don't both Obi and Yoda tell Luke he has to kill Vader?



Yes. But they're both either lying or wrong when they do so.


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> Where is this ever said? Hate. Anger. Fear. Those things lead to the dark side. Killing a defenseless Sith Lord who had already murdered thousands and will murder many more in order to prevent innocents from dying? I don't remember that being on the list of things that lead to the dark side.



It's at least heavilly implied when anakin beheads count dooku


----------



## Zaukrie

Davies said:


> Yes. But they're both either lying or wrong when they do so.



The point being, they both felt he should be dead for the good of the Galaxy. What changed, because Obi had a real chance there ...


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> It's at least heavilly implied when anakin beheads count dooku



And yet he didn't go to the dark side because of it.  It took being seduced by the emperor into wanting to save Padme from death(strong emotion of fear) and the anger within him that caused him to fall.


----------



## Mannahnin

Zaukrie said:


> The point being, they both felt he should be dead for the good of the Galaxy. What changed, because Obi had a real chance there ...



Probably they lost faith.

The story arc does parallel LotR, in that if Vader had been killed earlier, he wouldn't be around to defeat the Emperor*, and if Gollum had been killed earlier, he wouldn't be around to destroy the ring once Frodo was finally corrupted.  In both cases evil contains the seeds of its own destruction, and fate/The Force required that the good people give mercy to the evil and corrupt.

(*I'm ignoring Episode IX, as it bringing back the Emperor is trash)


----------



## Mannahnin

Maxperson said:


> And yet he didn't go to the dark side because of it.  It took being seduced by the emperor into wanting to save Padme from death(strong emotion of fear) and the anger within him that caused him to fall.



But presumably killing Dooku was the first big step on the path/in that direction.


----------



## Maxperson

Mannahnin said:


> But presumably killing Dooku was the first big step on the path/in that direction.



No.  It wasn't.  He was on that path from the moment Qui-Gon found him as an *angry* and *fearful* child.  Yoda saw that right away.  It wasn't the beheading of Dooku.  It was the anger and vengeance behind it that pushed him farther along the path.


----------



## Davies

Zaukrie said:


> The point being, they both felt he should be dead for the good of the Galaxy.



_Or they were lying or just plain *naughty word* *wrong*._ Your refusal to deal with the fact that it was Vader who defeated the Emperor, not Luke, does you no credit.


----------



## Zaukrie

Davies said:


> _Or they were lying or just plain *naughty word* *wrong*._ Your refusal to deal with the fact that it was Vader who defeated the Emperor, not Luke, does you no credit.



Which has nothing to do with decisions to that point, unless Obi knew the future, in which case it was preordained and nothing matters.


----------



## MoonSong

Mannahnin said:


> Probably they lost faith.
> 
> The story arc does parallel LotR, in that if Vader had been killed earlier, he wouldn't be around to defeat the Emperor*, and if Gollum had been killed earlier, he wouldn't be around to destroy the ring once Frodo was finally corrupted.  In both cases evil contains the seeds of its own destruction, and fate/The Force required that the good people give mercy to the evil and corrupt.
> 
> (*I'm ignoring Episode IX, as it bringing back the Emperor is trash)



Headcannon episodes vii+ happened in an alternate timeline where Luke didn't redeem Vader and managed to overpower Sidious, but failed to propperly finish the job.


----------



## billd91

Zaukrie said:


> How is letting him walk away to keep killing a good act?



This kind of reasoning comes up a lot in various stories from the Avengers: Endgame to Minority Report. But you have to weigh being responsible for someone else abusing the mercy you've shown them vs not showing anybody mercy. Is it good to murder a baby if that baby turns out, in the future, to be a monster?

There's no perfect answer to the issue. Is it good to show mercy to a murderer? Are you responsible for the things he later does of his own free will if you do show mercy?


----------



## Davies

Zaukrie said:


> Hence my desire that something keeps Obi from killing him.



Something does keep Obi-Wan from killing him -- Obi-Wan's pity for the self-loathing monster that Darth Vader reveals himself to be. The fact that you view this as _nothing_ does you no credit.


----------



## billd91

Zaukrie said:


> Which has nothing to do with decisions to that point, unless Obi knew the future, in which case it was preordained and nothing matters.



Well, if Obi-Wan doesn't know the future, he can't know that Vader will go on killing and thus be party to the evil he commits.


----------



## Ryujin

billd91 said:


> This kind of reasoning comes up a lot in various stories from the Avengers: Endgame to Minority Report. But you have to weigh being responsible for someone else abusing the mercy you've shown them vs not showing anybody mercy. Is it good to murder a baby if that baby turns out, in the future, to be a monster?
> 
> There's no perfect answer to the issue. Is it good to show mercy to a murderer? Are you responsible for the things he later does of his own free will if you do show mercy?



Without mercy, Batman's "rogues gallery" would have a far shorter list.


----------



## Davies

billd91 said:


> There's no perfect answer to the issue. Is it good to show mercy to a murderer? Are you responsible for the things he later does of his own free will if you do show mercy?



Edgelord: If you let him live, you're as good as killing everyone he later kills!
Me: Am I then responsible for all the lives he saves in the process?
Edgelord: What? What the hell are you talking --
Me: If he kills someone who would then kill five people, those five people are going to die if he doesn't kill the first person. If I kill him, I've killed those five people. And what if one of those five people will save countless lives in the future? By killing him and thus them, I've killed countless lives.
Edgelord: You can't know --
Me: Oh, so this morality play you've set up only works the way you want it to? How convenient. Go play with someone else. I have control only over my own choices and do not seek anything else. Anyone who does seek that is a tyrant in the making, and I would inevitably be one of the bodies in the foundation of any utopia they seek to create.


----------



## Zaukrie

Davies said:


> Something does keep Obi-Wan from killing him -- Obi-Wan's pity for the self-loathing monster that Darth Vader reveals himself to be. The fact that you view this as _nothing_ does you no credit.



I never said don't have pity. I never said his story isn't tragic and sad. I said he let a known murderer go free. Did nothing to detain him, at the minimum. Did nothing to stop him from continuing. Just walked away. 

To be clear, people are saying it is ok to kill Vader in combat, but not to stop him from doing what you know he'll do in the future, right?  How many children did he have to kill for anyone to think they should stop him? I assume bombing his home is also out, since he can't defend himself? 

Again, I'd have been much happier had there been another reason Vader lives, than a warrior looking at his fallen foe, and deciding it was ok to let him live and keep hunting every force sensitive in the galaxy. 

I'm ok with people disagreeing, and I'm pretty sure I've made enough posts here....


----------



## Zaukrie

Davies said:


> Edgelord: If you let him live, you're as good as killing everyone he later kills!
> Me: Am I then responsible for all the lives he saves in the process?
> Edgelord: What? What the hell are you talking --
> Me: If he kills someone who would then kill five people, those five people are going to die if he doesn't kill the first person. If I kill him, I've killed those five people. And what if one of those five people will save countless lives in the future? By killing him and thus them, I've killed countless lives.
> Edgelord: You can't know --
> Me: Oh, so this morality play you've set up only works the way you want it to? How convenient. Go play with someone else. I have control only over my own choices and do not seek anything else. Anyone who does seek that is a tyrant in the making, and I would inevitably be one of the bodies in the foundation of any utopia they seek to create.



Are you suggesting it is likely anyone thought Vader would just stop? How about detaining him instead of killing him? For the story, he could escape....


----------



## Davies

Zaukrie said:


> Are you suggesting it is likely anyone thought Vader would just stop?



It doesn't matter.

Detaining him was not within Obi-Wan's resources. He had two choices -- kill him while he's helpless, a monstrous act, or walk away and keep Vader's anger focused on himself instead of the galaxy as a whole. He made the right decision.


----------



## Bolares

Couldn't we have this discussion in a more chill way?


----------



## Ryujin

Bolares said:


> Couldn't we have this discussion in a more chill way?



You'd think that we could discuss something that has all of the depth of a 1930s American Western with some civility, wouldn't you?


----------



## Bolares

Ryujin said:


> You'd think that we could discuss something that has all of the depth of a 1930s American Western with some civility, wouldn't you?



Tell that to Umbran when he appears


----------



## Stalker0

Maxperson said:


> Where is this ever said?  Hate. Anger. Fear.  Those things lead to the dark side.  Killing a defenseless Sith Lord who had already murdered thousands and will murder many more in order to prevent innocents from dying?  I don't remember that being on the list of things that lead to the dark side.



Its shown three times in the movies that I can recall. The movies show that Anakin's killing of helpless Dooku is considered a step towards darkness.

When Windu is going to kill Palpatine while he's helpless, Anakin tries to remind him that "this is not the Jedi way".

When Luke has Vadar down for the count, the emperor flat out says, "strike him down, and your journey to the dark side will be complete".


The series has a long tradition of showing "killing helpless person = bad". We can argue why, we can argue if it makes sense, but you can't argue it doesn't exist.


----------



## Imaculata

Davies said:


> Something does keep Obi-Wan from killing him -- Obi-Wan's pity for the self-loathing monster that Darth Vader reveals himself to be.




This is how I interpreted the scene as well. Obi Wan has a mix of pity and horror when he sees what Anakin has become. He wasn't ready to see Anakin like this. He recoils, rather than finish the job.


----------



## Ryujin

Imaculata said:


> This is how I interpreted the scene as well. Obi Wan has a mix of pity and horror when he sees what Anakin has become. He wasn't ready to see Anakin like this. He recoils, rather than finish the job.



"Then my friend is truly dead."


----------



## Maxperson

Stalker0 said:


> Its shown three times in the movies that I can recall. The movies show that Anakin's killing of helpless Dooku is considered a step towards darkness.



Yes. Killing Dooku in anger for revenge was a step towards the darkness.


Stalker0 said:


> When Windu is going to kill Palpatine while he's helpless, Anakin tries to remind him that "this is not the Jedi way".



When Anakin is trying to keep the guy who will help him save Padme alive and would say anything?


Stalker0 said:


> When Luke has Vadar down for the count, the emperor flat out says, "strike him down, and your journey to the dark side will be complete".



Again, it was when Luke was attacking his father while filled with anger and hate.  The emperor wanted him to give in to the emotion.

Luke kills hundreds, if not thousands of janitors, computer techs and other non-combatants when he blows up the Death Star.  That didn't drive him to the dark side. 

Luke force strangles to death two Gamorreans who answer Jaba's door.  That didn't drive him to the dark side.

We are shown Anakin murdering a whole tribe of Tuskans out of anger and a desire for revenge in order to show him sliding to the dark side.  If all it took as his killing them, we didn't need to see the anger and revenge motivation.  He could have dispassionately cut them down.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Stalker0 said:


> The series has a long tradition of showing "killing helpless person = bad". We can argue why, we can argue if it makes sense, but you can't argue it doesn't exist.



I feel like it came up a lot in the Clone Wars animated series as well, and I seem to recall poorly executed plot points related to this being my least favorite thing about that series and one reason why I stopped watching it. But as someone who just watched about two thirds of the episodes once five or six years ago I can't really cite examples.

I've often disliked the way Star Wars handled this, because it seems so happy so often to let probably-not-irredeemably-bad footsoldiers of villains be chopped up by Jedi all day with laser swords without shedding a tear, but when named-villain-who-is-definitely-going-to-do-more-evil is at a Jedi's mercy it is suddenly a moral conundrum. But it is definitely a trope of Star Wars to make it a moral conundrum.

All that said, this ending to the Obi-Wan series was not one of the places it bothered me, because Obi-Wan not choosing to kill Vader felt appropriate to his character and their relationship, and because he hadn't just cut a path of rampant destruction through a bunch of Stormtroopers to get to him, or otherwise done anything _recently_ that treated lives more trivially. I wish the dialogue had made the thought process a little clearer, but oh well.


----------



## Morrus

I think any internet argument about what Jedi 'morality' is or is not supposed to be is pretty much doomed to failure (and   parody).


----------



## Zaukrie

And bordering on incivility....


----------



## MoonSong

Zaukrie said:


> And bordering on incivility....



Just bordering?...


----------



## Staffan

Maxperson said:


> Luke kills hundreds, if not thousands of janitors, computer techs and other non-combatants when he blows up the Death Star.  That didn't drive him to the dark side.



The Death Star was a clear and present threat at the time.


Maxperson said:


> Luke force strangles to death two Gamorreans who answer Jaba's door.  That didn't drive him to the dark side.



I did not get the impression that Luke killed those guards, just that he KOed them. When Vader force chokes someone to death, it takes a while, but Luke only keeps it up for a few seconds on the guards.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> I think any internet argument about what Jedi 'morality' is or is not supposed to be is pretty much doomed to failure (and   parody).




Yep, and to toxic fandom, as can be seen in posts in the past few pages.


----------



## Maxperson

Staffan said:


> The Death Star was a clear and present threat at the time.



So it's okay to kill non-combatants if they are in the way?


Staffan said:


> I did not get the impression that Luke killed those guards, just that he KOed them. When Vader force chokes someone to death, it takes a while, but Luke only keeps it up for a few seconds on the guards.



Maybe you're right.  We never get to see the conclusion.  Either way, though, he's using the dark side when he does it.  Jedi don't force choke.


----------



## Hussar

Zaukrie said:


> Why stop him from killing anyone, if you are going to let him live to keep doing it? It's the same thing. He knows he'll keep killing, over and over. Why stop him while he's killing, it's effectively the same thing.



For Board Rules reasons, let's not dive into the morality of the death penalty shall we?  Let's just say that for some people, there is never a justification for the death penalty.


----------



## Hussar

Zaukrie said:


> How is letting him walk away to keep killing a good act?



Well, at the end of the day, letting him walk away results in the Empire being defeated, the Emperor killed and the forces of Good winning in the Galaxy.

Considering we know that the Force is able to see the future, you could argue pretty easily that the Force guided Obi-Wan at this moment to not kill Vader, in the knowledge that in the future, Vader will not kill Luke and will kill the Emperor.

We are dealing with a force (sorry for the pun) that is quasi-godlike in nature that is unknowable but, more than capable of affecting the real world.  So, it's pretty plausible actually.  Just like Obi-wan knows that he will become more powerful if Vader kills him.


----------



## Hussar

Zaukrie said:


> The point being, they both felt he should be dead for the good of the Galaxy. What changed, because Obi had a real chance there ...



Well, Alderaan hadn't happened by this point.  Vader is bad, but, then again, lots of things in the universe are bad.  Heck, at this point, Obi-wan doesn't even know about the Death Star.  All he knows is his padawan brother went to the Dark Side.  Vader didn't institute Order 66 - that's the Emperor.  Heck, most of the bad things that are happening aren't from Vader - they're from the Emperor.  Now, after Vader blows up a planet?  Ok, all bets are off.  

But, again, we cannot discount the idea that the Force is guiding things here (through the power of Narativium) towards the one good ending.  After all, 50% of the universe had to die in order to defeat Thanos.


----------



## Hussar

Zaukrie said:


> Are you suggesting it is likely anyone thought Vader would just stop? How about detaining him instead of killing him? For the story, he could escape....



Luke?

And, again, how on earth would you detain him?  Obi-wan has no power here.  He's a rebel.  Heck, at this point, the Rebellion has pretty much zero power.  Someone who can literally rip apart a spaceship with the power of his mind?  Never minding that Obi-wan has a duty to protect Luke and Leia, not stop Vader.  The longer he stays with Vader, the greater the chance Vader learns of Luke and/or Leia, resulting in Obi-wan failing yet again.

If Obi-wan kills Vader, the Emperor wins and millions more will die at the hands of a virtually immortal Sith lord.  After all, without Vader's weakness for his children, the Emperors new apprentice will be unstoppable and certainly will have no reason to betray the Emperor outside of standard greed.  

This is a bog standard morality tale.  Again, it goes back to the quote from LotR - “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” You might not like it, but, the story here pretty plainly supports this interpretation.  Kill Vader now and evil wins.  Do evil, even with good intentions, and evil wins.  That's been the basic premise of Star Wars since day 1.  

I'm really frankly baffled how you can interpret Star Wars any other way.


----------



## Davies

Hussar said:


> Now, after Vader blows up a planet? Ok, all bets are off.



It's worth noting that Vader didn't give the order there. That was all on Tarkin. Both the radio play and the novelization portray Vader as _slightly_ uncertain whether doing this is a "good" idea (and, in the aftermath, a bit amused that it failed to get the information they wanted.) I don't offer this as exculpation, as the slaughter of the students and torturing Leia, and later Han and possibly Chewie, are sufficiently terrible in and of themselves. But the decision to commit genocide against Alderaan was not his.


----------



## Imaculata

Alderaan would have been blown up with or without Vader.

It also seems a bit silly to critique Obi Wan's decision to spare Vader, based on future atrocities commited by Vader that Obi Wan has no knowledge of.

All that really matters is character motivation. Obi Wan appears horrified by what Anakin looks like beneath the mask; How he is now more machine than man, artificially keeping him alive. Possibly in constant pain as well.

Nothing he could do to Vader at this point, would be worse than the fate Vader already has. Perhaps killing him would have been a mercy. But of course, that is not what Obi Wan does canonically. As this is a prequel, Obi Wan cannot kill Vader. We already know this outcome before watching the show.

I appreciate how the show at least tries to make Obi Wan's lines about Vader betraying and murdering Luke's father, less of a deliberate lie. That was rather clever.


----------



## Maxperson

Imaculata said:


> It also seems a bit silly to critique Obi Wan's decision to spare Vader, based on future atrocities commited by Vader that Obi Wan has no knowledge of.



I don't have any direct knowledge that the trees in the Amazon are giving off oxygen and intaking carbon dioxide, either.  Obi-Wan has as much reason to believe that Vader is going to kill many more, including Jedi, as I have for believing that the trees in Amazon work like I described above.


----------



## Imaculata

Maxperson said:


> I don't have any direct knowledge that the trees in the Amazon are giving off oxygen and intaking carbon dioxide, either.  Obi-Wan has as much reason to believe that Vader is going to kill many more, including Jedi, as I have for believing that the trees in Amazon work like I described above.




I don't believe he does. I don't think Obi Wan knows what or who Anakin is at this point. He is a different person from the Anakin he knew.

Keep in mind, it has been years since the slaughter at the Jedi temple. Obi Wan has lived as an outcast all this time, believing Anakin was dead. Then he is shocked to learn that some how, Anakin survived. He feels guilty about what he did to Anakin. Obi Wan has never forgiven himself.

All Obi Wan knows, is that Vader is obsessed with him. And that makes complete sense, considering how guilty Obi Wan must feel about what he did. How he left Anakin mutilated and to die.

We presume Obi Wan has been keeping track of what Vader has been up to all this time, because we as an audience have been shown this on the show and in the original trilogy. But he hasn't. Obi Wan has been on a desert planet all this time, by himself, believing Anakin was dead. How could he have any inkling of what Vader now is, and what he has been doing?


----------



## Maxperson

Imaculata said:


> I don't believe he does. I don't think Obi Wan knows what or who Anakin is at this point. He is a different person from the Anakin he knew.



He knows who Vader is, though.  It's not as if he hasn't heard what is going on.  He just didn't know Vader was Anakin until this show.  Hell, he walked the row of dead masters.  He landed and saw the dead younglings.  He experienced Vader multiple times in this show. 


Imaculata said:


> Keep in mind, it has been years since the slaughter at the Jedi temple. Obi Wan has lived as an outcast all this time, believing Anakin was dead. Then he is shocked to learn that some how, Anakin survived. He feels guilty about what he did to Anakin. Obi Wan has never forgiven himself.



Again, not so much of an outcast that he was unaware of Vader and his antics.


Imaculata said:


> We presume Obi Wan has been keeping track of what Vader has been up to all this time, because we as an audience have been shown this on the show and in the original trilogy. But he hasn't. Obi Wan has been on a desert planet all this time, by himself, believing Anakin was dead. How could he have any inkling of what Vader now is, and what he has been doing?



Even Tatooine gets the news and he works in town.  It may be months old, but he is aware of what was happening out there. There's no way that those he worked with, shopped from, etc. didn't talk about it. He even knew that the order to kill the Jedi was called Order 66 as he mentioned that in the show. Nothing in this show said that he was avoiding even hearing about what was happening outside.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Zaukrie said:


> That's assuming killing evil is an evil act . Is it? Or, trying to imprison him (admitting I have no idea how that works in star wars, but in theory is an option).






Zaukrie said:


> It's like being required to be tolerant of hate, in the name of tolerance. I'm not required to do that.



This is YOUR moral code. Which is fine in a universe that has no built in moral code: people develop their own ideas of what is right and what is wrong. But the Star Wars universe has a built in absolute moral code which may differ from your own. That's part of the fantasy.


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> This is YOUR moral code. Which is fine in a universe that has no built in moral code: people develop their own ideas of what is right and what is wrong. But the Star Wars universe has a built in absolute moral code which may differ from your own. That's part of the fantasy.



No.  No it doesn't have any such thing.  The vast majority of the members of the sentient races can have fear, anger, etc. and not be evil.  They can have traits like being calm and be evil.  It's only the force users that run the risk of going dark if they give in to anger, fear and hate.  And that's not because of some moral code that the force imposes. It's because the force comes from living things and those emotions are dark.  

It's not some sort of universal moral code at all, absolute or otherwise.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Maxperson said:


> No. No it doesn't have any such thing.



So, you know better than George Lucas?

It's not YOUR universe. You might not LIKE the rules the Star Wars universe operates under, but you can't make them go away by denying them.


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> So, you know better than George Lucas?



I'm describing what the movies told us.  And quite frankly, after the crap he fed us with his directors editions(Han shot first!), I'm pretty sure that I do know better than him at this point.


----------



## Imaculata

Maxperson said:


> It's not as if he hasn't heard what is going on.




This is a big presumption.



> Even Tatooine gets the news and he works in town.  It may be months old, but he is aware of what was happening out there.




Do we know this for a fact? Obi Wan lives divorced from civilization for the most part. All he knows is that the Empire is continuing to hunt down Jedi. Obi Wan has been in hiding for a while. I think it isn't until the events of the first episode of the show, that Obi Wan has a run in with the empire.

But even then, he doesn't know who Vader is or what he has been doing. Obi Wan seems to be playing catch up for the full duration of the show, which seems to span only a few days. Thats a lot to take in. I'll forgive Obi Wan for not being as quickly up to speed as we as an audience are, and for not having been privy to as much information as we as an audience have been.


----------



## Maxperson

Imaculata said:


> This is a big presumption.



Not really.  As I said, he isn't a real hermit.  He works in town, talks to people and Tatooine gets information.  He will in fact hear things and Vader would have been the talk of the town for years.  You have to presume some sort of force forgetting technique that he's using on himself to forget all the things he hears.


Imaculata said:


> Do we know this for a fact? Obi Wan lives divorced from civilization for the most part.



Maybe you watched a different Obi-Wan series than I did.  I saw him working in town and talking to people in the one that I watched. Before things hit the fan.


Imaculata said:


> All he knows is that the Empire is continuing to hunt down Jedi. Obi Wan has been in hiding for a while. I think it isn't until the events of the first episode of the show, that Obi Wan has a run in with the empire.



You don't need a run in with the empire to hear the people around you talking about the Vader guy heading up the hunting of the Jedi.


Imaculata said:


> But even then, he doesn't know who Vader is or what he has been doing.



He doesn't know Vader is Anakin, no.

We do see that as soon as the Jedi shows up, he know about Inquisitors and tells the guy to run away.  When he is told that Vader is Anakin, he immediately knows(from the expression on his face) that Anakin is this big, bad evil dude and is horrified. That couldn't happen if Obi-Wan was as ignorant as you are saying.  He clearly hears things, which makes sense for someone who works in town and talks to people.


----------



## Zardnaar

Mannahnin said:


> Probably they lost faith.
> 
> The story arc does parallel LotR, in that if Vader had been killed earlier, he wouldn't be around to defeat the Emperor*, and if Gollum had been killed earlier, he wouldn't be around to destroy the ring once Frodo was finally corrupted.  In both cases evil contains the seeds of its own destruction, and fate/The Force required that the good people give mercy to the evil and corrupt.
> 
> (*I'm ignoring Episode IX, as it bringing back the Emperor is trash)



 Emperor returning by itself isn't bad just was poorly explained. Being cloned is an obvious one. 

 Plageous would have been better IMHO ties it back to the PT and has a nice reveal element to it.


----------



## Hussar

In the 10 years from the end of Episode 3 to Obi-Wan, what has Vader actually done, canonically?  Yup, hunted Jedi - but, then again, that's just the extension of Order 66.  LOTS of people were hunting Jedi, presumably.  And, what else?  Yeah, Anakin Skywalker killed the children, but, Obi-wan thought he was dead.  He has no connection to Vader whatsoever.  As far as Obi-wan is concerned, and, at the beginning of Obi-Wan, it's not like he was concerned about much of anything, Vader is just another Empire baddie in a rather large crowd of Empire baddies.


----------



## Hussar

Zardnaar said:


> Emperor returning by itself isn't bad just was poorly explained. Being cloned is an obvious one.
> 
> Plageous would have been better IMHO ties it back to the PT and has a nice reveal element to it.



What is a Plageous and what is a PT?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Hussar said:


> What is a Plageous and what is a PT?


----------



## Staffan

Hussar said:


> What is a Plageous and what is a PT?


----------



## Rabulias

Hussar said:


> Well, Alderaan hadn't happened by this point.  Vader is bad, but, then again, lots of things in the universe are bad.  Heck, at this point, Obi-wan doesn't even know about the Death Star.  All he knows is his padawan brother went to the Dark Side.  Vader didn't institute Order 66 - that's the Emperor.  Heck, most of the bad things that are happening aren't from Vader - they're from the Emperor.  Now, after Vader blows up a planet?  Ok, all bets are off.



As others have pointed out, Vader did not make the decision about Alderraan. And while it is not shown directly in the films, the destruction of Alderaan is supposedly a tipping point in the GFFA that drives many systems to support the Rebellion. So maybe the Force knew this too?


Maxperson said:


> He doesn't know Vader is Anakin, no.



Yes he does. In _Revenge of the Sith_, Obi-Wan and Yoda watch the security footage in the Jedi Temple and hear Sidious call Anakin "Lord Vader."

Edited to add: Perhaps he has heard about this imposing figure in black leading the Inquisitors, but does not know his name is Vader. I mentioned before though that I found it a bit hard to believe that after 10 years of the Empire, word of the Emperor's brutal right-hand man and feared enforcer, Lord Darth Vader, would not have found its way to Obi-Wan's ears, even out in the Outer Rim.


----------



## Rabulias

Hussar said:


> What is a Plageous and what is a PT?



And PT = Prequel Trilogy (Episodes I, II, and III).


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Rabulias said:


> Edited to add: Perhaps he has heard about this imposing figure in black leading the Inquisitors, but does not know his name is Vader. I mentioned before though that I found it a bit hard to believe that after 10 years of the Empire, word of the Emperor's brutal right-hand man and feared enforcer, Lord Darth Vader, would not have found its way to Obi-Wan's ears, even out in the Outer Rim.



When Vader shows up in Rebels, about six years after Kenobi, he is not recognised, so clearly the emperor prefers to keep his attack dog out of the news.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> Luke?
> 
> And, again, how on earth would you detain him?  Obi-wan has no power here.  He's a rebel.  Heck, at this point, the Rebellion has pretty much zero power.  Someone who can literally rip apart a spaceship with the power of his mind?  Never minding that Obi-wan has a duty to protect Luke and Leia, not stop Vader.  The longer he stays with Vader, the greater the chance Vader learns of Luke and/or Leia, resulting in Obi-wan failing yet again.
> 
> If Obi-wan kills Vader, the Emperor wins and millions more will die at the hands of a virtually immortal Sith lord.  After all, without Vader's weakness for his children, the Emperors new apprentice will be unstoppable and certainly will have no reason to betray the Emperor outside of standard greed.
> 
> This is a bog standard morality tale.  Again, it goes back to the quote from LotR - “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” You might not like it, but, the story here pretty plainly supports this interpretation.  Kill Vader now and evil wins.  Do evil, even with good intentions, and evil wins.  That's been the basic premise of Star Wars since day 1.
> 
> I'm really frankly baffled how you can interpret Star Wars any other way.



Unfortunately, the idea of moral ambiguity has seeped into all types of entertainment to the point that the public no longer recognizes it for what it is. Moral certitude is the stuff of old legends, even when the actual people that the tales were about were objectively pretty crappy, as humans go.


----------



## WayneLigon

Paul Farquhar said:


> So, you know better than George Lucas?
> 
> It's not YOUR universe. You might not LIKE the rules the Star Wars universe operates under, but you can't make them go away by denying them.



What 'rules'? He's the ultimate seat-of-his-pants GM who forgets vital plot points he told you ten minutes ago. 

Honestly, it's not hard to know better than Lucas. One of the main reasons it's pointless to argue about anything dealing with this franchise is that the top person source, Lucas himself, is vague, inconsistent, and contradictory all at the same time and has been for 40 years. He constantly lays down the law with one hand and picks it back up again with another, over and over and over again. heck, he's wanted us to buy that he 'had it all planned out decades ago' when it's patently obvious he did not.


----------



## billd91

WayneLigon said:


> What 'rules'? He's the ultimate seat-of-his-pants GM who forgets vital plot points he told you ten minutes ago.
> 
> Honestly, it's not hard to know better than Lucas. One of the main reasons it's pointless to argue about anything dealing with this franchise is that the top person source, Lucas himself, is vague, inconsistent, and contradictory all at the same time and has been for 40 years. He constantly lays down the law with one hand and picks it back up again with another, over and over and over again. heck, he's wanted us to buy that he 'had it all planned out decades ago' when it's patently obvious he did not.



With respect to story events (including his own history), you're right. George isn't good on consistency and detail. But delivering a set of movies based on recapturing the feel of action serials like Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon? He does that pretty well. And for serials like this, the good guys are good, bad guys are bad - the moral questions are relatively simple, not layered with tons of nuance. Add on to that a light side vs the corrupting, seductive dark side and you really do have some simple rules to follow.


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## Bolares

Rabulias said:


> Edited to add: Perhaps he has heard about this imposing figure in black leading the Inquisitors



My take is that he heard nothing. He was not looking for news, and was living as a hermit in a backwater planet in the outer rim


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## Mannahnin

Mannahnin said:


> The story arc does parallel LotR, in that if Vader had been killed earlier, he wouldn't be around to defeat the Emperor*, and if Gollum had been killed earlier, he wouldn't be around to destroy the ring once Frodo was finally corrupted.  In both cases evil contains the seeds of its own destruction, and fate/The Force required that the good people give mercy to the evil and corrupt.
> 
> (*I'm ignoring Episode IX, as it bringing back the Emperor is trash)






Zardnaar said:


> Emperor returning by itself isn't bad just was poorly explained. Being cloned is an obvious one.



No, in my opinion it is bad writing.  It sabotages the story arc of the original and prequel trilogies.  It betrays the existing themes and makes them incoherent.

Episode IX had some beautiful stuff in it, and I was able to squint past a lot of junk in it to enjoy it in the theater, but the writing is absolutely terrible overall.  It betrays both the original story and the new characters.


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## Zardnaar

Mannahnin said:


> No, in my opinion it is bad writing.  It sabotages the story arc of the original and prequel trilogies.  It betrays the existing themes and makes them incoherent.
> 
> Episode IX had some beautiful stuff in it, and I was able to squint past a lot of junk in it to enjoy it in the theater, but the writing is absolutely terrible overall.  It betrays both the original story and the new characters.



 Ross was crap the execution was off. 

 I don't think cloning the emperor is a great idea wasn't great whent they did it in Dark Empire 1991. 

But if he did return it needs to make sense in universe and cloning is the obvious one. 

 They didn't make that clear in Ross and messed up the execution and it was a stupid movie as well. 

 Dark Empire still had the same issues you raised but they did explain it and wrapped it up in a way Ross didn't eg the Emperor can just keep coming back at another location as RoS left that door open.


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## pukunui

Zardnaar said:


> They didn't make that clear in Ross and messed up the execution and it was a stupid movie as well.



Which is why they're trying to work it into all the Disney+ shows and such as some kind of retroactive foreshadowing.


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## Zardnaar

pukunui said:


> Which is why they're trying to work it into all the Disney+ shows and such as some kind of retroactive foreshadowing.




 Yeah I know. They kinda explained it in some book the shows are just filling in the gaps. 

 Still won't make RoS any better though.


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## Gradine

I binged it all at once. It was good. Nothing groundbreaking. The best parts were when Obi-Wan was very clearly still in love with Padme (make it overt cowards!), the part where Vader's helmet is broken and they mix the two voices together, basically anything involving Reva, and the part where he says "hello there." Also the one-scene wonder that was that drug pushing girl.

My least favorite parts were when Disney refuses to stop trying to make Kumail a thing; he seems like a swell enough guy but he's just a terrible actor. He's like the anti-Cara Dune. Flea also took me out of it, but that's probably more on me than him.


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## The Myopic Sniper

I liked the first episode and last episode pretty well and found most of the middle episodes a bit of a slog. I watched it episodically week to week, I wonder if it might have worked better if I had waited and binged it in one sitting and treated it as four hour movie instead of being underwhelmed week after week until I got to the end.


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## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> My take is that he heard nothing. He was not looking for news, and was living as a hermit in a backwater planet in the outer rim



He worked in town with crowds of people and bought goods there.  It would have been impossible for him not to hear news.  He didn't need to look for it.


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## Mallus

Gradine said:


> My least favorite parts were when Disney refuses to stop trying to make Kumail a thing; he seems like a swell enough guy but he's just a terrible actor.



Have you seen The Big Sick? He’s fantastic in that film. Granted he is playing a character based on himself. But if that was easy… ummm… everyone would be more compelling!


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## pukunui

Gradine said:


> I binged it all at once. It was good. Nothing groundbreaking. The best parts were when *Obi-Wan was very clearly still in love with Padme (make it overt cowards!)*, the part where Vader's helmet is broken and they mix the two voices together, basically anything involving Reva, and the part where he says "hello there."



I get that a lot of people seem to think Obi-Wan was in love with Padme based on that one line, but there's never been any indication that he had feelings for anyone other than Satine Kryze. I personally interpreted that dialogue has him wishing he could be Leia's father because he likes her and wants to protect her, not because he was in love with Padme.



Gradine said:


> Also the one-scene wonder that was that drug pushing girl.



That was Ewan McGregor's daughter, Esther-Rose.


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## Benjamin Olson

The Myopic Sniper said:


> I liked the first episode and last episode pretty well and found most of the middle episodes a bit of a slog. I watched it episodically week to week, I wonder if it might have worked better if I had waited and binged it in one sitting and treated it as four hour movie instead of being underwhelmed week after week until I got to the end.



I personally am fairly sure I would be more positive on episode 3 if I had been able to binge the next episode rather than being left contemplating what they were thinking with the staging of that fire that neither Vader nor his minions can walk around. There were lot of parts of that episode I really liked, but it ended on the dumbest thing in it, and left me thinking about the other dumb things in it.


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## Gradine

pukunui said:


> I get that a lot of people seem to think Obi-Wan was in love with Padme based on that one line, but there's never been any indication that he had feelings for anyone other than Satine Kryze. I personally interpreted that dialogue has him wishing he could be Leia's father because he likes her and wants to protect her, not because he was in love with Padme.



Oh, I'm aware it is more headcanon than something within the actual text. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate the nod.


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## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> He worked in town with crowds of people and bought goods there.  It would have been impossible for him not to hear news.  He didn't need to look for it.



Didn't he work in the middle of the desert in a place where interacting was discouraged? All the scenes where he was working he was dead quiet and not wanting to interact. Obi-Wan was deeply traumatized and activelly trying to bury his head in the sand. He was not just not looking for news, he was avoiding them. He chose to not help a jedi in danger, he said no to saving Leia, I can see the man from the start of the series avoiding news about the empire.


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## Zaukrie

I avoided coming back for a week, as the discussion got less than ideal .... So thank you to those that replied to me after that. We might not agree, but it was pretty respectful.


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## Gradine

Frankly I'm just waiting for D+ to stop milking as much as they can out of midquels and actually, you know, tell new stories. I'm champing at the bit for some post-Skywalker content, to the extent that I'm trying to hype my friends up about Star Wars so I can convince them to play SW5e with me and we can tell them ourselves. _And it's not working_


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## Bolares

Gradine said:


> Frankly I'm just waiting for D+ to stop milking as much as they can out of midquels and actually, you know, tell new stories.



Isn't this literally the Mandalorian?

Other than that I agrre. I'd love some non skywalker stories.


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## Gradine

Bolares said:


> Isn't this literally the Mandalorian?
> 
> Other than that I agrre. I'd love some non skywalker stories.



Mando is still pre-sequel trilogy, but it is the best thing they're doing with SW at the moment.


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## Bolares

Gradine said:


> Mando is still pre-sequel trilogy, but it is the best thing they're doing with SW at the moment.



Oh true, the trauma of ep 9 blocked the sequel trilogy from my mind


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## Gradine

Bolares said:


> Oh true, the trauma of ep 9 blocked the sequel trilogy from my mind



The 5th worst Star Wars movie aside, at least it, at least in theory, put a pin in the whole "everyone is about the Skywalkers and also mostly Palpatine" thing


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## Zardnaar

Gradine said:


> The 5th worst Star Wars movie aside, at least it, at least in theory, put a pin in the whole "everyone is about the Skywalkers and also mostly Palpatine" thing




 Wrong place to do it though since they marketed the movies as VII, VIII and IX and the conclusion of the Skywalker saga. 

 They should have doubled down on that and come up with something a bit more detached from the Clone Wars/,Rebellion era for the TV shows and other movies. 

 It's Disney though they won't stray to fair from the formula. 

 For rpg material are you familiar with the older SWRPGs?


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## Hussar

Considering the end of Ep 9 where you see that little kid using the force, yeah count me in on a future SW series set a decade or so after EP9. 

Sort of clean slate start. The Jedi and the Sith are rebuilding. The universe is fractured into all these fairly equal powers so no side dominates. 

I would watch the heck out of that.


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## Zardnaar

Hussar said:


> Considering the end of Ep 9 where you see that little kid using the force, yeah count me in on a future SW series set a decade or so after EP9.
> 
> Sort of clean slate start. The Jedi and the Sith are rebuilding. The universe is fractured into all these fairly equal powers so no side dominates.
> 
> I would watch the heck out of that.




Not a bad idea outside the movies Disney has been doing the high republic (300 years before PT/OT) and they've hinted at old republic stuff. 

 In legends old republic 4-5000 years before PT/OT and Legacy series (140 years after RotJ). 

 Old Republic not a Skywalker to be found Legacy had descendents of the Skywalker's and various other characters. 

 Generally there's always been a huge focus on Sith/Jedi, Skywalker's, and Mandalorians so kinda makes sense why Disney focuses on them. 

 Spaceships would be another one with multiple games, books and comics.


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## Gradine

Hussar said:


> Considering the end of Ep 9 where you see that little kid using the force, yeah count me in on a future SW series set a decade or so after EP9.
> 
> Sort of clean slate start. The Jedi and the Sith are rebuilding. The universe is fractured into all these fairly equal powers so no side dominates.
> 
> I would watch the heck out of that.



That was actually the end of Episode 8, but otherwise yeah, I want all of this


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## Zardnaar

Gradine said:


> That was actually the end of Episode 8, but otherwise yeah, I want all of this




 It's not a bad idea episode 8 was just the wrong place to do it. The clue is in the title episode 8. 



 It's a big galaxy and over Skywalker's anyway due to various reasons. 

 Disney overall is probably batting better than average it's not like Lucas did everything right either. Ewok movies, holiday special......


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## Hussar

Y'know, I think I need to actually rewatch the movies.  I've only seen most of them (outside of the original trilogy) once.  Might actually  be fun.  I recently did that with the Marvel movies and man, if you actually watch them all pretty close  together (as in over a month or two like I did) so much of the little stuff starts making so much more sense.  

I think because I'm usually not one for rewatching very much, I forget so many of the details between movies that all this stuff about ret-cons and contradictions never really matter to me very much because I don't typically remember the details that closely anyway.  If Vader's lightsaber was suddenly a different color I doubt I'd even notice.  Just don't care about that level of detail.


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## Mannahnin

Zardnaar said:


> It's not a bad idea episode 8 was just the wrong place to do it. The clue is in the title episode 8.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a big galaxy and over Skywalker's anyway due to various reasons.
> 
> Disney overall is probably batting better than average it's not like Lucas did everything right either. Ewok movies, holiday special......



Episode 8 was where Rian Johnson got the opportunity to put it in.  Unfortunately Disney had no overarching plan and continuity for the trilogy. While I have my complaints about TLJ, it at least had arcs for the characters, and built in an interesting direction on TFA's tease of Rey coming from nowhere.  Johnson went with the idea that it's NOT all about special bloodlines- that power and virtue can spring from "nothing".  That any person can have the potential to be heroic, to be a Jedi.

Then RoS went back to "everything is about the magic families".  Yuck.  In addition to wasting/betraying Vader's whole arc by bringing Palpatine back.

I'll certainly agree that Lucas had his issues too.


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## Zardnaar

Mannahnin said:


> Episode 8 was where Rian Johnson got the opportunity to put it in.  Unfortunately Disney had no overarching plan and continuity for the trilogy. While I have my complaints about TLJ, it at least had arcs for the characters, and built in an interesting direction on TFA's tease of Rey coming from nowhere.  Johnson went with the idea that it's NOT all about special bloodlines- that power and virtue can spring from "nothing".  That any person can have the potential to be heroic, to be a Jedi.
> 
> Then RoS went back to "everything is about the magic families".  Yuck.  In addition to wasting/betraying Vader's whole arc by bringing Palpatine back.
> 
> I'll certainly agree that Lucas had his issues too.




 The idea is a good one just in the wrong place considering Disney was marketing it as the Skywalker Saga. That's the big problem there not that the idea is bad.

 It did kind of get explored in the old EU as well. One of my favorites was a force sensitive clone who became force sensitive in a society where they were supposed to be perfect clones Dorsk 81 iirc. 

 Good idea wrong place and time. Don't need to be a Skywalker to be a powerful force user eg Palpatine, Obi Wan, Windu etc.


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