# Building a better Hag



## Old_school_overlord (Sep 30, 2008)

I'm working on a band of powerful Hags, suitable for challenging my 8 player group of 10th level characters (almost entirely core). As its an aquatic dungeon, they'll be based off Sea and Green Hags,  and I've been having a little trouble with how to improve them...

A first option would be to throw character levels on, but If I put 7 Sorcerer Levels on a Green Hag, while I have a theoretically CR11 foe, It seems likely to be woefully underpowered. Some can add Martial class levels (say, Barbarian) this feels like it might be ok, but I definately need some to be magic users

alternatively, I could create entirely new "Elder Hag" monsters or Reskin something Else entirely - what do people think?


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 30, 2008)

There are a number of more powerful hags in various sourcebooks, as well as the Night Hag (that you could reskin).  There's a pretty nifty one in Frostburn, IIRC.  Another idea might be to turn the appoach around entirely, and make a "Hag Template" that you could hang on an otherwise straight up sorceror NPC - or one of a variety of Witch clases that are out there (there's a nice one on the WoTC boards that might be worth tracking down).

You could also add the Practised Spellcaster (?) feat if you go the "add 7 levels" approach, as that would help mitigate the underpowered-ness of the build.


----------



## frankthedm (Sep 30, 2008)

Old_school_overlord said:


> I'm working on a band of powerful Hags, suitable for challenging my 8 player group of 10th level characters (almost entirely core). As its an aquatic dungeon, they'll be based off Sea and Green Hags,  and I've been having a little trouble with how to improve them...
> 
> A first option would be to throw character levels on, but If I put 7 Sorcerer Levels on a Green Hag, while I have a theoretically CR11 foe, It seems likely to be woefully underpowered.



Then she is not CR11. She would be a CR 9, with gear of a 9th level NPC character.

Improving Monsters :: d20srd.org
_"A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability."_

Is referring to a monster like a Naga or a Nymph who have full on spellcasting, not just a few _spell like abilities_ as the green hag..

Be _cautious_ with the Non associated class levels concept. It was written before the _Sudden Metamagic_ and _Practiced Spellcaster_ feats were written up. Doing a quick playtest with the critter can help see what cr the critter really is. Notably cleric levels past 6th can basically ruin the non associated concept since that where divine power rears it's broken head.

But on the other hand if your players build overly strong characters with splat material, the monsters must do the same to keep in line with their CRs.


----------



## Old_school_overlord (Oct 1, 2008)

Ah, so the caster levels of spell likes would be separate to any added casting class then? Interesting the monsters with class levels get gear - i'm leery about dishing out too much treasure, can I justify a CR reduction by under equipping my monsters?

This is what I hate about the CR system though : 10 level sorcerer = CR10 threat, Green Hag + 10 levels of Sorcerer = CR10 !

I'm currently working on:

Green Hag + 12 Cleric (CR11)
Green Hag + 10 Barbarian (CR10)
Green Hag + 10 Wizard (CR10)
Sea Hag + 10 Sorcerer (CR9)
Sea Hag + 10 Druid (CR9)
Sea Hag + 10 Fighter (CR9)


----------



## roguerouge (Oct 1, 2008)

Be careful about it being underwater too. Usually, that environment really smacks around melee types (water resistance nerfs slashing and bludgeoning, they sink like a stone) and casters (soggy material components).


----------



## roguerouge (Oct 1, 2008)

Also, you've got two coveys there, which means six possible uses of forcecage, which means a possible death trap if the water breathing runs out... especially since they won't be able to crack open the old spell book to memorize dimension door or teleport.


----------



## Old_school_overlord (Oct 1, 2008)

I should probably mention that Force Cage is banned is one of a small number of banned spells in my house, I've also run several aquatic missions before, so the players are at least familiar with the issues of underwater combat...


----------



## frankthedm (Oct 2, 2008)

Old_school_overlord said:


> This is what I hate about the CR system though : 10 level sorcerer = CR10 threat, Green Hag + 10 levels of Sorcerer = CR10 !



CR 11 if you are rounding up. Huge part of it is if a monster is using a spell to blast you with, she is NOT beating you with the natural damage output that earned her original CR in the first place. 

That said, if a monster has a CR equal or _less_ than his CLASS level in any given PC class, he IS under CRed. I also recommend rounding UP when it comes to determining non associated class levels CR bumps.



Old_school_overlord said:


> I'm currently working on:




Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. _At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. _

So...
Green Hag + 12 Cleric (CR13) {I'd say CR14 Due to *Divine Power, Righteous might and Harm*!]
Green Hag + 10 Barbarian (CR15)Green hag is strong enough and has plenty of HD to synergize with rage for Barbarian to be associated.
Green Hag + 10 Wizard (CR12)
Sea Hag + 10 Sorcerer (CR13)
Sea Hag + 10 Druid (CR13)
Sea Hag + 10 Fighter (CR13)


----------



## Aeolius (Oct 4, 2008)

A post about hags and underwater adventuring... and I didn't even start it (take that, CM)!   

I recently posted a bit of this, over at Phoenix Lore , to get some feedback on an ecology article I am working on. 


The Hag-Touched: Oceanids, Harridans, Sea Hags, and Annis
(I reserve the right to publish this information and ideas derived from it elsewhere, as I see fit.)

   In my campaigns, I accept Nigel Findley’s “Ecology of the Greenhag” (DRAGON #125) as canon. Simply stated, this means that the greenhag is the daughter of a night hag and an annis is the daughter of a greenhag. The article states that the greenhag is the offspring of a night hag and either human or demi-human father, while the annis is the daughter of a greenhag and either ogre or hill giant father. The offspring of an annis is always a female of the father’s race.

   I have expanded upon that family tree, keeping the greenhag as the offspring of an advanced night hag known as a midnight hag and either human or high elf, while adding unique offspring from the union with aquatic, sylvan, and drow elves. I also added outsiders as viable fathers with night hags. Demons, devils, daemons, and demodands siring succubi, erinyes, naelle(1), and phlenar(1) respectively. 

   The greenhag, according to the article, can produce an annis through her union with either an ogre or hill giant. To this I added the sea hag as a daughter from either a merrow (aquatic ogre) or bog giant father. I rounded out the roster with new ogres for jungle, desert, and arctic environments, while choosing from large-sized giants from similar locales, to sire unique hags for these settings. To this I added a union with trolls, to account for the hags in Frostburn and Sandstorm, as well as the bog hag in Oriental Adventures. This left the scrag, as father to the shoal hag(1) and the jungle troll as father to an as yet unnamed rainforest-themed hag. If I was to borrow hags from either Unapproachable East or 4e, I could make the shrieking/howling hags daughters of jungle trolls, and death hags daughters of jungle ogres.

   Thus one begins with the night hag as the progenitor. The greenhag, salt hag(1), woodhag(1), and greyhag(1) follow as half-hags (a template), as outsider’s blood sullies the acquisition of this particular template. Third generation hags, or hag-touched (a level adjustment) creatures include the annis, bog hag, dune hag, marzanna, harridan(1), shrieking hag, death hag, and oceanid(1).

   Greenhags that spend the majority of their time in the water are known as shellycoats, and differ in appearance and abilities from greenhags, in a similar manner as aquatic storm giants differ from their cloud-dwelling kin. Hag-touched offspring of shellycoats include the sea hag and shoal hag(1).

   A fourth generation of hags, the hag-cast, include hags created in unconventional means such as the elemental hags born of a night hag’s ashes, the parthenogenetic reef hag(1), and the stormfire hag(1). In addition, hag-blooded beings have been known to appear, several generations after their hag-touched ancestors.

   In addition, midnight hags have been known to assume a male gender and sire offspring with human, derro, and demon (yochlol) mothers. Unions between gender-changed midnight hags and unchanged midnight hags are not unheard of, though the offspring is almost always a night hag. Any male child born of such a union is quickly slain and consumed. 

   A gathering of three epic hags, including the likes of the midnight hag, is known as a covyn, while gatherings of three lesser hags such as half-hags, hag-touched, hag-blooded, and hag-cast is known as a clutch. A clutch is often sponsored by a more powerful hag.

   Midnight Hags have been known to train other hags in the ways of the beldamei; a prestige class exclusive to hags. Another hag-oriented prestige class, reserved for those embracing darker magics, includes the body snatcher. Both of these paths begin with the onset of demon fever instilled by either the bite of a midnight hag or that of her improved homunculus.

   In such a way a hag-touched (Level Adjustment) oceanid could be a beldamei (Prestige Class) member of a clutch (Organization/Affiliation).


That might give you a thing or two to think about.


----------



## Aeolius (Oct 7, 2008)

To add a further layer of confusion, you could always resort to the use of templates... the presence of scrags and merrow might lead to a half-troll hag or half-ogre hag, somewhere. A hag dalliance with a nixie or kelpie might lead to a half-fey hag (I seem to recall a half-fey hag in either Dungeon or a WotC web-enhancement, somewhere).


----------



## Jhaelen (Oct 7, 2008)

Old_school_overlord said:


> A first option would be to throw character levels on, but If I put 7 Sorcerer Levels on a Green Hag, while I have a theoretically CR11 foe, It seems likely to be woefully underpowered.



Interestingly that's exactly what I used for a recent encounter. For some reason I even arrived at a CR of 12 (I assumed the levels would be associated). Actually, I didn't find her 'woefully underpowered'. I mostly chose buff & touch spells for her and used a mwk/+1 stunning surge quarterstaff to good effect. I selected power attack and brutal strike as additional feats.

I'm not sure if posting the whole statblock would be fine - assuming you were interested?


----------

