# Is the Internet a hive of scum and villainy?



## Bullgrit (Feb 27, 2014)

My sons are starting to watch some YouTube videos. Mostly Minecraft and World of Warcraft stuff. So far as I know, they haven't yet scrolled down and read any of the comments. My wife and I are trying very hard to keep them out of any comments section.

My experience with YouTube video comments, and pretty much comments on any site, is that people on the Internet are generally horrible, terrible people. In just about any comments section, at least half the people are either painfully ignorant or just nasty mean or both. Places like ENWorld are very, very rare. (From what I've seen of ENW's sister site, CM, even people who post civilly here can be awful when given the option.)

It's the Gabriel Internet ****wad theory: A normal person + anonymity + an audience = total ****wad.

I'm fearful of the day one of my boys finds a comment section or discussion forum that doesn't have any moderation. The Internet can be a well of infinite information and knowledge, but damn, it can also be a bottomless pit of just evilness.

What do you think? We are well past the Internet's infancy and even juvenility, so will the general culture ever mature to a point of general civility being the norm instead of negativity being the most common expression?

Bullgrit


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## delericho (Feb 27, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> What do you think?




Yep, at present it's pretty much a HoS&V.



> so will the general culture ever mature to a point of general civility being the norm instead of negativity being the most common expression?




There appear to be moves towards ending internet anonymity. That will help. Plus, there's a growing (and actually rather worrying) trend towards having people suffering real-world consequences for things that are documented online, sometimes vastly out of proportion with any reasonable response.

So I think things will improve over time... but it's going to be awfully painful getting there.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Feb 27, 2014)

This is what you get when you combine anarchy and anonymity ... a wretched hive of scum and villainy.  We must be cautious.

See also: Niven's _Cloak of Anarchy_.  Not the internet, but I think the lesson still applies.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 27, 2014)

It is just a reflection of who humans are. We are the ones on it, not AIs.


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## athos (Feb 27, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> What do you think? We are well past the Internet's infancy and even juvenility, so will the general culture ever mature to a point of general civility being the norm instead of negativity being the most common expression?




As long as there are no negative consequences for acting poorly, people will act to the lowest common denominator.  In a game store, if someone said something highly inappropriate, you could ask them to step out into the parking lot, but on the internet, they are completely safe.  This safety from a punch in the nose, allows those that are small and angry to lash out at anyone with no fear of reprisal.  In fact, I think they save up all the anger they have from real life where they are too timid to do anything and then vent it out into the internet.  That is why you see "nerd rage" over silly things.  People that are secure with who they are act the same in real life and on the net, people who are afraid in real life, IMO, are the ones that get really stupid on the internet.  So unless you can get therapy for all these angry anti-social people, they are going to continue to act tough where they are safe, the net.


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## Morrus (Feb 27, 2014)

YouTube comments are renowned.  There's a reason for that saying - "Don't read the comments!"


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## Michael Silverbane (Feb 27, 2014)

Just like on the forums, those comments sections usually have a "report post" button that you can use to report rude, derogatory, or bullying behavior. Whenever I watch a video on Youtube, I typically spend a few minutes going through the comments and reporting inappropriate posts. On the channels that I frequent, I have seen an improvement in the quality of comments.


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## Altamont Ravenard (Feb 27, 2014)

Are your boys too young to have the "people on the internet are worse than ingrown toenails" yet?

AR


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## Janx (Feb 27, 2014)

delericho said:


> Yep, at present it's pretty much a HoS&V.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I think it'll take a couple trolls getting hunted down and shot to demonstrate to the rest of society that you can't act like a jerk on the internet anymore because the other guy CAN find you.

That is of course a terrible way to respond to internet trolling, but you can't keep telling people "be nice or there will be consequences" without somebody actually being the demonstrative example of those consequences.  Sometimes YOU are somebody else's karma.

Overall though, yes, internet forums, discussions, comment are absolutely terrible for actual discussion due to the overwhelmingly poor signal to noise ratio.

I don't think it is a good idea to post on ANY comments section.  Especially news sites.

I don't think it's valuable to discuss politics or religion with any other human being.  The percentage probability that one party will handle it badly and NOT be moved to a new position is too low.


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## Hand of Evil (Feb 28, 2014)

hopefully by that time, they will know that most people who post are just doing so to hear themselves talk and what is being said, is by people wanting attention.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 28, 2014)

You probably already know this, but there are some browser extensions with the whole purpose of obfuscating youtube comments. Might be valuable in fending off that day of awful realisation.


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## Kaodi (Feb 28, 2014)

Yes. Next question.

More seriously though, I would dispute the Gabriel theory in one respect: It is useless for predicting the behaviour of individuals. More properly X Normal People + Anonymity + Audience = Y Jerks, where X is greater than and not equal to Y, and X is greater than a certain sample size.

Also, anonymity should perhaps not in this context be understood in the traditional sense of unidentifiable in the real world, but rather in a sense of unidentifiable to the vast majority of readers. There are plenty of complete jerks who use their real names. All you have to do is go to any news site that uses Facebook to see this. Like the comments on the Times of Israel. Do not read those.


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## STIGMATADOR (Feb 28, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> so will the general culture ever mature to a point of general civility being the norm instead of negativity being the most common expression?




God I hope not!


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 28, 2014)

Well, if any part of the human race ever becomes civilized, maybe part of the internet will.

Who has the most free time? Teenagers and 20-something college students, and retirees.
What part of that group would spend hours on the internet for fun?
And what type of humor or comments does that group enjoy making?

The internet is like any other tool: it can be used, and it can be abused. Depends on the person. If as I suspect you've done a good job rearing your children, there's a pretty decent chance that they will be better than the people you are worried about. You can't shelter them forever, but you can give them the tools to discern for themselves what they should and should not do.


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## Janx (Feb 28, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Well, if any part of the human race ever becomes civilized, maybe part of the internet will.
> 
> Who has the most free time? Teenagers and 20-something college students, and retirees.
> What part of that group would spend hours on the internet for fun?
> ...




True.  Though I suspect there's a threshold of child age where before it, kids should probably be kept away from the comments section of YouTube.  And after it, they've already seen it from their friends' and they know how to be better than the people on the internet.


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## Bullgrit (Feb 28, 2014)

I just saw a picture of a guy dressed for Halloween. He was Luke Skywalker training with Yoda on his back. It was a great idea, (that I hadn't seen before), and well executed. My thoughts were, "Wow, that's really cool."

But the comments section was full of 
"He's just showing off his biceps." 
"What biceps? Don't skip arm day!"

Just on and on with dismissals or insults like that. Of the 20-30 comments, not one said anything about the costume, its concept, its result. And god help any woman or girl who posts a pic! The misogyny is frightening.

With so many monkeys throwing feces at everything on the Internet, you'd think people would stop posting their stuff. Actually, I'm surprised people do continue posting anything to the general Internet, or that people leave commenting turned on at all.

Bullgrit


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## Morrus (Feb 28, 2014)

A lot of people who post a lot of stuff develop a thick skin and learn how to ignore the noise. For example, I get 'attacked' in some way most days; I just learned not to look in certain directions. It's the price of 'doing' something - whatever it is, some people will hate you for it.


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## Umbran (Feb 28, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> Just on and on with dismissals or insults like that. Of the 20-30 comments, not one said anything about the costume, its concept, its result. And god help any woman or girl who posts a pic! The misogyny is frightening.




Sadly, just before humans discovered fire, we discovered that one of the basic ways to feel better about yourself it to tear down anyone around you who tries anything.  You can then look at the desolation around you, and feel you stand tall in the middle of it.


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 28, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> I just saw a picture of a guy dressed for Halloween. He was Luke Skywalker training with Yoda on his back. It was a great idea, (that I hadn't seen before), and well executed. My thoughts were, "Wow, that's really cool."
> 
> But the comments section was full of
> "He's just showing off his biceps."
> ...



There was a similar bit where someone had made a great 10th Doctor costume, and people were snidely saying things like "The Doctor has really let himself go", because the fan was of the larger physique of the two sci-fi fan stereotypes. His response was "If that's all they can find to comment on, my costume was bloody awesome." Jealousy is a green-eyed monster.


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## Zombie_Babies (Feb 28, 2014)

athos said:


> As long as there are no negative consequences for acting poorly, people will act to the lowest common denominator.  In a game store, if someone said something highly inappropriate, you could ask them to step out into the parking lot, but on the internet, they are completely safe.  This safety from a punch in the nose, allows those that are small and angry to lash out at anyone with no fear of reprisal.  In fact, I think they save up all the anger they have from real life where they are too timid to do anything and then vent it out into the internet.  That is why you see "nerd rage" over silly things.  People that are secure with who they are act the same in real life and on the net, people who are afraid in real life, IMO, are the ones that get really stupid on the internet.  So unless you can get therapy for all these angry anti-social people, they are going to continue to act tough where they are safe, the net.




There's one HUUUUUUUUGEEEE problem with your li'l theory: There are plenty of folks out there who say nasty things online that can most assuredly effectively defend themselves from attack.  You're acting like it's only nerdy losers who can barely stand to carry their own weight who act out online.  For your sake I hope you never, ever decide to track a troll down and punch him in the nose.  Your theory could put you in the hospital.  

I mean, I'm sure your theory here makes you feel better - people that hurt your feelings are inherently small, weak and cowardly is an outlook that can't help but make you feel superior.  Thing is, it's pretty wrong and I hope for your sake you reevaluate before taking any sort of action.  Hell, even if you never look a troll up and roll to his house (I honestly doubt you would - I mean, you said yourself what people who talk on the internet do) it'd still be a healthier option.  Pretending folks who hurt your feelings are lesser beings really isn't the best way to go about it.  It's not realistic.



Bullgrit said:


> I just saw a picture of a guy dressed for Halloween. He was Luke Skywalker training with Yoda on his back. It was a great idea, (that I hadn't seen before), and well executed. My thoughts were, "Wow, that's really cool."
> 
> But the comments section was full of
> "He's just showing off his biceps."
> ...




... _those _are nasty comments?  Really?  I ... wow ...


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Feb 28, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> For your sake I hope you never, ever decide to track a troll down and punch him in the nose.




For _his_ sake? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.


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## athos (Mar 1, 2014)

[MENTION=6750039]Zombie_Babies[/MENTION]

If the shoe fits...


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 1, 2014)

athos said:


> As long as there are no negative consequences for acting poorly, people will act to the lowest common denominator.



There are plenty of "negative" consequences for behavior. The problem isn't that there aren't any, it's that they aren't effective.


> In a game store, if someone said something highly inappropriate, you could ask them to step out into the parking lot, but on the internet, they are completely safe.  This safety from a punch in the nose, allows those that are small and angry to lash out at anyone with no fear of reprisal.



People still act like jerks off the internet. Physical aggression may serve to keep you from doing something, but there are plenty of people that won't be deterred by the possibility of a fight. In fact, there are some people that look for that, so it's quite possible that by becoming physically aggressive, you are in fact playing into what they want.


> In fact, I think they save up all the anger they have from real life where they are too timid to do anything and then vent it out into the internet.  That is why you see "nerd rage" over silly things.  People that are secure with who they are act the same in real life and on the net, people who are afraid in real life, IMO, are the ones that get really stupid on the internet.  So unless you can get therapy for all these angry anti-social people, they are going to continue to act tough where they are safe, the net.



Behavior is far more complex than that.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 1, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Behavior is far more complex than that.



Them be fighting words!


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## Serendipity (Mar 1, 2014)

Not any more so than the naked face of humanity itself, no.  
Of course, you might infer a bit of realism-*koff* pessimism as some would have it from that but whatever.  The internet isn't any worse than the species using it, IOW.


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## Gonozal (Mar 1, 2014)

> It's the Gabriel Internet ****wad theory: A normal person + anonymity + an audience = total ****wad.




I don't think that's true. Of course anonymity does a lot to encourage all kinds of scummy behavior, but a normal person on the internet still usually acts like a normal person. It's the minority of attention-addicted or scummy people that loose all inhibitions on the internet and find it hilarious to insult others


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Mar 1, 2014)

I think some of it comes from what would be considered joking ribbing with friends. It's easy to get caught up in a community like ENWorld and forget that 1) most of the other posters aren't your friends; and 2) the body language and tone you use to joke with friends is lost on the internet. Add into that subjects you wouldn't joke with your friends over because you know they take the subject seriously and/or sensitively and you have a hidden minefield of unintended offense to deal with as well.


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## STIGMATADOR (Mar 2, 2014)

I bet nobody would mess with Gurkhas on the internet.
They *would* track you down and lay waste to you and your kin!

WOOT!


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## STIGMATADOR (Mar 2, 2014)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> For _his_ sake? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.




Correct.
I'm sure ZB would hate it if that guy went looking for someone who made him butt hurt on the interwebz, and ended up getting his ass whooped.
Although I would find it hilarious, ZB might not.


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## Zombie_Babies (Mar 3, 2014)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> For _his_ sake? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.




Yeah, internet tough guys really scare me.  



athos said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> @_*Zombie_Babies*_ <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> 
> If the shoe fits...




So how's that shoe feel?  Your toes nice an' comfy?


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## Janx (Mar 3, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> There's one HUUUUUUUUGEEEE problem with your li'l theory: There are plenty of folks out there who say nasty things online that can most assuredly effectively defend themselves from attack.  You're acting like it's only nerdy losers who can barely stand to carry their own weight who act out online.  For your sake I hope you never, ever decide to track a troll down and punch him in the nose.  Your theory could put you in the hospital.




Putting a bit more on this thought:

I've never seen school bullies who were weak.

Sure, bullies are probably suffering from some need or lack of care, but generally, they are stronger than their victims.

I would suspect that online bullies have a higher rate of un-empathy than they have of weakness.


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## athos (Mar 3, 2014)

Pretty funny you make the OP's point ZB


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## Jet Shield (Mar 4, 2014)

athos said:


> Pretty funny you make the OP's point ZB



I find it interesting that you would say that to someone who is simply giving good advice. You seem to be implying that a person who is expressing hope that another person not do something rash and potentially dangerous is either a scum or a villain or both.

That's just plain foolish.


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## Bullgrit (Mar 4, 2014)

Is it that the person making a nasty comment on the Internet is a jerk, or is it that the commenter doesn't think of the target as a real person (with real feelings, etc.)? That is, does the anonymity make a person a jerk, or does it make everyone else unreal? 

Is it that the Internet makes people immune from physical retribution, or that the Internet blinds people to the emotional reaction? 

Bullgrit


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## Umbran (Mar 4, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> Is it that the person making a nasty comment on the Internet is a jerk, or is it that the commenter doesn't think of the target as a real person (with real feelings, etc.)? That is, does the anonymity make a person a jerk, or does it make everyone else unreal?
> 
> Is it that the Internet makes people immune from physical retribution, or that the Internet blinds people to the emotional reaction?




You state this as if we must choose.  Embrace the power of "and".

Though, honestly, the commenter knows the target is a real person, if they stop to think about it.  There's just such a suggestion of distance or separation from the target that the commenter probably doesn't really care.


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## doghead (Mar 6, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> The internet is like any other tool: it can be used, and it can be abused. Depends on the person. If as I suspect you've done a good job rearing your children, there's a pretty decent chance that they will be better than the people you are worried about. You can't shelter them forever, but you can give them the tools to discern for themselves what they should and should not do.




I agree. Inevitable they are going to be exposed to the comments people write. Time for a sit down and chat?

thotd


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## Zombie_Babies (Mar 6, 2014)

athos said:


> Pretty funny you make the OP's point ZB




How?  You come closer to that than I do - I mean, you're the one making threats, no?


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## athos (Mar 7, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> How?  You come closer to that than I do - I mean, you're the one making threats, no?




No one made any threats.  I pointed out that if you were in a game store and said something very rude, you might get asked to step outside.  Without that physical threat, rude little people get to act like scum on the internet without ever getting held accountable.

Don't worry little fellow, no one can hurt you on the internet, keep being obnoxious all you want.


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## EscherEnigma (Mar 8, 2014)

athos said:


> Don't worry little fellow, no one can hurt you on the internet, keep being obnoxious all you want.



/headscratch

I hope you realize that's not exactly true, right?  Actions have consequences.  How does it go... "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words affect my mind, the one eternal part of my composite being".  Further, we have plenty of stories where the things someone did online came back and bit them.  Whether it's a Judge's online comments getting tied back to him, online affairs being revealed and leading to heartbreak and divorce, letting enough personal information slip† that someone can steal your identity, and so-on.  

People think online they're anonymous (they aren't) and that they're free from consequence (they really aren't) but that doesn't make it true.  It's just a fantasy.

Admittedly, the internet _is _quite excellent for being conducive to entertaining and indulging in fantasies of many stripes, but that doesn't make the fantasy real.  Yet, anyway.  Gimme a budget and twenty years, and I will _make_ it real.
________
†Doesn't take that much, really.  General location can often be narrowed down to a few zip codes, gender is given out pretty freely, and then you just need birthday which is a bit less casually slipped but not all that rare.  With those three and access to voter rolls for the zip codes (not that hard to get) you can winnow down to a half dozen or so people.  A few social engineering phone calls later and you've found the person.  And that's when the _real_ fun begins.


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## Jet Shield (Mar 8, 2014)

EscherEnigma said:


> †Doesn't take that much, really.  General location can often be narrowed down to a few zip codes, gender is given out pretty freely, and then you just need birthday which is a bit less casually slipped but not all that rare.  With those three and access to voter rolls for the zip codes (not that hard to get) you can winnow down to a half dozen or so people.  A few social engineering phone calls later and you've found the person.  And that's when the _real_ fun begins.



It's often even easier than you make it out to be. People leave little crumbs all over the 'net. An hour or two of effort can frequently net you someone's real name, address, phone number, nicknames, parents names/addresses/phone numbers, siblings, children's names, past residences/phone numbers, criminal records, sports played/numbers worn, and friends/classmates names.

Anonymity on the internet is a fiction.


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## Umbran (Mar 8, 2014)

athos said:


> No one made any threats.  I pointed out that if you were in a game store and said something very rude, you might get asked to step outside.  Without that physical threat, rude little people get to act like scum on the internet without ever getting held accountable.
> 
> Don't worry little fellow, no one can hurt you on the internet, keep being obnoxious all you want.





So, let's see... the guy talking about rudeness and consequences on the internet starts getting personal and a bit snarky.   And a moderator sees it...

Is the irony of this invisible to anyone but me?

How about this - we all remember that on EN World, we expect folks to show each other a modicum of respect.  And failure to do so does can have consequences.  Some may call them small, but they're there.

So, let's all play like nice, mature adults, and not stoop to the schoolyard posturing and needling hm?  Thanks, all!


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## STIGMATADOR (Mar 9, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> Is it that the Internet makes people immune from physical retribution, or that the Internet blinds people to the emotional reaction?




It is because the internet keeps people from getting their noses bloodied.
Reminds me of a quote...

“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they  can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”   
  ― Robert E. Howard.
Just replace "civilized men" with "online posters" and there you have it.


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## trappedslider (Mar 9, 2014)

I think it also depends on the environment that your posting in,which can also dictate the behavior of the posters.


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## Zombie_Babies (Mar 10, 2014)

Thanks to the mod team for pointing out something I'd have probably pointed out in a much less nice way.


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## DungeonsNDads (Mar 13, 2014)

Give a man a mask and you see the real man.

Basically people suck.


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## Zombie_Babies (Mar 13, 2014)

DungeonsNDads said:


> Give a man a mask and you see the real man.
> 
> Basically people suck.




People do suck but it's got nothing to do with a mask.  Did you get bullied in school or at least see someone get bullied?  Did the bullies wear masks?  Your username has 'dad' in it so I'm gonna assume you have kids.  You're probably aware, then, that the new thing to do for teens is to grief their enemies on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.  They could (and sometimes do) do this anonymously but very, very often they don't.  The theory about anonymity and bad behavior isn't as solid as many like to present.  I mean, how many people get into bar fights?  What about road rage?  There's just so much evidence that points to the fact that sucky people will be sucky no matter what.


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## DungeonsNDads (Mar 13, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> People do suck but it's got nothing to do with a mask.  Did you get bullied in school or at least see someone get bullied?  Did the bullies wear masks?  Your username has 'dad' in it so I'm gonna assume you have kids.  You're probably aware, then, that the new thing to do for teens is to grief their enemies on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.  They could (and sometimes do) do this anonymously but very, very often they don't.  The theory about anonymity and bad behavior isn't as solid as many like to present.  I mean, how many people get into bar fights?  What about road rage?  There's just so much evidence that points to the fact that sucky people will be sucky no matter what.




Can't say I was ever bullied, people used to try but that's just kids, I grew a thick skin and bloody knuckles growing up 

I agree that people will suck if they just inherently suck, and an a-hole on the street will equally be an a-hole on the internet, he doesn't need a mask nor anonymity. However, you take the trolls, griefers, anonymous bullies and faceless scum on the internet that have a mask and then put them face to face with that same person they were harassing... I guarantee that that vast majority of them won't be quite so quick to be a jerk. If you're a nice guy in real life.. that generally translates over into how you are with people in general and when you get on the internet you're equally a nice person. If you have that mean streak in you in real life but society and conformity make you push it to one side, or the general acceptance that if you did _whatever you wanted to do and screw the consequences_ then the consequences might get you your ass kicked.. so people generally stfu and keep their heads down.

So yeh, people can suck without a mask, and hell at least we're seeing what those people are like, but for most people you don't see the real them until there are no consequences to their actions.


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