# She-Hulk: Attorney at Law trailer



## trappedslider (May 17, 2022)

Starts Wednesday, Aug. 17


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 17, 2022)

I'm . . . not sure how I feel about this. It definitely looks different from what I was expecting. I'm currently looking forward to Ms. Marvel more than this show. I'll wait until the show comes out to truly judge it, though.


----------



## John R Davis (May 17, 2022)

That looks fun


----------



## payn (May 17, 2022)

Getting_ Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer_ vibes.


----------



## MarkB (May 17, 2022)

Looks good. A few dashes of superheroics, but a lot more about being a known super who's trying to live in the world as an actual person - which I'm very much there for.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (May 18, 2022)

Hopefully they tweak the CG up a notch before full release (it's pretty cartoony) but I love Tatiana Maslany and I've always liked She Hulk. Done right, it could be very fun.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (May 18, 2022)

It looks like a lot of fun to me, but don't make the mistake I did and read through the comments on the Twitter or Facebook posts for the trailer. So many misogynists who can handle a strong female character commenting and coming up with all sorts of cracks to put her down without outright coming out and saying what they really think. Quite a few are using the "blame the CGI" line as well.


----------



## Richards (May 18, 2022)

Looks good - did we get a release date yet?

Johnathan


----------



## trappedslider (May 18, 2022)

Richards said:


> Looks good - did we get a release date yet?
> 
> Johnathan



right next to it is the release date Wednesday, Aug. 17


----------



## Richards (May 18, 2022)

Heh - that doesn't show up when you go full-screen for the video.  Thanks!

Johnathan


----------



## Tonguez (May 18, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I'm . . . not sure how I feel about this. It definitely looks different from what I was expecting. I'm currently looking forward to Ms. Marvel more than this show. I'll wait until the show comes out to truly judge it, though.




Its very much what I was expecting, She-Hulk comics are all self referential, 4th-wall breaking comedies - and this seems to be picking up the sexy lawyer slice-of-life comedy from that.

I do hope the cgi improves though and we get some real action from her (in more ways than one lol) - yeah I had a teenage crush on both She-hulk and Spiderwoman

and I am so hoping that Titania has ties to Sharon Carters Power Broker and that Poundcakes and the Grapplers get a cameo.


----------



## fba827 (May 18, 2022)

So basically ally mcbeal as a hulk? . 

(Kidding.  I know this source material and tone predates that other show)


----------



## HippyCraig (May 18, 2022)

I hope birdman attorney at law makes a cameo


----------



## Older Beholder (May 18, 2022)

Looks like a lot of fun. 
Also: Tim Roth!


----------



## Richards (May 18, 2022)

And the Abomination looks more and more like his comic book self with each MCU appearance!

Johnathan


----------



## Davies (May 18, 2022)

HippyCraig said:


> I hope birdman attorney at law makes a cameo



Really kind of doubt it, since he is owned by Warner Brothers.


----------



## DeviousQuail (May 18, 2022)

I thought she'd be bigger. I don't know anything about the character but she looked so tiny compared to The Hulk. For those in the know is this in line with the comics? I was expecting something more like the proportions of the strong sister from Encanto or some of those jacked Amazons from Wonder Woman.


----------



## Davies (May 18, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> I thought she'd be bigger. I don't know anything about the character but she looked so tiny compared to The Hulk. For those in the know is this in line with the comics?



Yes, the She-Hulk is usually not portrayed as being as tall (6'7'' vs. 7') or as broad-shouldered as the Hulk, except in some recent portrayals. She looked pretty much as I expected her to look.


----------



## Stalker0 (May 18, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Hopefully they tweak the CG up a notch before full release (it's pretty cartoony) but I love Tatiana Maslany and I've always liked She Hulk. Done right, it could be very fun.



My thoughts word for word.


----------



## jdrakeh (May 18, 2022)

This looks like good fun, much in the same vein Hawkeye was. Can't wait to see it.


----------



## Tonguez (May 18, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> I thought she'd be bigger. I don't know anything about the character but she looked so tiny compared to The Hulk. For those in the know is this in line with the comics? I was expecting something more like the proportions of the strong sister from Encanto or some of those jacked Amazons from Wonder Woman.



She-Hulk also worked as a bikini model, so yeah she is generally depicted as much smaller and differently proportioned than Bruces Hulk.
It does make sense though - Bruce was transformed by a gamma explosion and realised his savage-rage form, Jennifer got a gentler blood transfusion and thus a more controlled change.

That said Jen does develop a larger more monstrous savage form too (though I doubt we’ll see it on screen)


----------



## Morrus (May 18, 2022)

Richards said:


> Heh - that doesn't show up when you go full-screen for the video.



I would imagine not.


----------



## Morrus (May 18, 2022)

This looks kinda fun. I've never read the comics, but this looks like it's a comedy?


----------



## JAMUMU (May 18, 2022)

It looks exactly like what I'd expect a She-Hulk TV show to look like. Can't wait for it to drop!


----------



## Mannahnin (May 18, 2022)

I agree that this looks good, though it looks like the CGI could use a little more polish in post production.



Morrus said:


> This looks kinda fun. I've never read the comics, but this looks like it's a comedy?



As we've seen, most of the MCU stuff has significant comedic elements, but yeah, She-Hulk has classically been more comedically-focused, with some fourth wall breaking and a lot of self-referential humor.


----------



## wicked cool (May 18, 2022)

her cgi looks really bad compared to her counterpart.


----------



## Janx (May 18, 2022)

Here, in MCU, it looks like some kind of willing casual experiment, which I'm puzzled why Bruce would risk that on anybody.

I also didn't know she could change back and forth.  Kinda got the impression she was stuck green.

I'm sure it'll be fun.


----------



## billd91 (May 18, 2022)

Janx said:


> Here, in MCU, it looks like some kind of willing casual experiment, which I'm puzzled why Bruce would risk that on anybody.
> 
> I also didn't know she could change back and forth.  Kinda got the impression she was stuck green.
> 
> I'm sure it'll be fun.



She-Hulk getting stuck in her green form is later down the story line.


----------



## Retreater (May 18, 2022)

Do you think She-Hulk's Bar Exam was a Bend Bars check?

Re: the CGI
My wife commented on how odd the CGI looks - and she doesn't normally notice such things. I haven't watched the trailer, but it must be something really bad.


----------



## Sacrosanct (May 18, 2022)

I'm going to remain open-minded, because Wandavision and Hawkeye trailers didn't impress me very much, and they both turned out to be very good shows.


----------



## DeviousQuail (May 18, 2022)

Retreater said:


> Do you think She-Hulk's Bar Exam was a Bend Bars check?
> 
> Re: the CGI
> My wife commented on how odd the CGI looks - and she doesn't normally notice such things. I haven't watched the trailer, but it must be something really bad.



I wouldn't say bad, just not finished. Thinking of all the Disney+ shows none of them had a main character that needed this much cgi at all times. My guess is Disney is using this trailer to gauge how much more work they need to do.


----------



## Willie the Duck (May 18, 2022)

Hope this goes over well. The Hulk-slice of the Marvel universe (friends, allies, reoccurring villain roster, etc.) has gotten short shrift in the visual medium (since the 70s, when it had the most). It also is one that often intersects poorly with a wider Marvel-verse, so I hope they go light with the MCU plot seeping in (character cameos are a different matter). 



Tonguez said:


> She-Hulk also worked as a bikini model, so yeah she is generally depicted as much smaller and differently proportioned than Bruces Hulk.
> It does make sense though - Bruce was transformed by a gamma explosion and realised his savage-rage form, Jennifer got a gentler blood transfusion and thus a more controlled change.



Still not as subtle as (one of my favorite Marvel characters) Doc Samson gets it -- green hair.


----------



## delericho (May 18, 2022)

That one left me really cold. I'm not sure why.

That said, I try to put as little stock in trailers as possible - there doesn't seem to be much correlation between the quality of the trailer vs that of the finished product.


----------



## Staffan (May 18, 2022)

Willie the Duck said:


> Hope this goes over well. The Hulk-slice of the Marvel universe (friends, allies, reoccurring villain roster, etc.) has gotten short shrift in the visual medium (since the 70s, when it had the most). It also is one that often intersects poorly with a wider Marvel-verse, so I hope they go light with the MCU plot seeping in (character cameos are a different matter).



My understanding is that at least in modern times, it's because there are some rights issues – I think Universal has (or had) distribution rights to Hulk movies. That's why, after the Edward Norton movie, Hulk has only been around as a guest star in the Avengers movies as well as Thor Ragnarok. If they make a "straight" Hulk movie Universal gets a piece of the pie, and why do that when you can instead do a movie where Marvel/Disney gets all the monies? But that means that there's no room for Hulk's supporting cast, given that Hulk is relegated to a supporting cast role himself.


----------



## Rabulias (May 18, 2022)

Willie the Duck said:


> Hope this goes over well. The Hulk-slice of the Marvel universe (friends, allies, reoccurring villain roster, etc.) has gotten short shrift in the visual medium (since the 70s, when it had the most). It also is one that often intersects poorly with a wider Marvel-verse, so I hope they go light with the MCU plot seeping in (character cameos are a different matter).



As we get closer to seeing the X-Men in the MCU, I keep hoping we see a nod to Wolverine first appearing in the Hulk's book, like some face-to-face meeting (not necessarily a fight).


----------



## payn (May 18, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> As we get closer to seeing the X-Men in the MCU, I keep hoping we see a nod to Wolverine first appearing in the Hulk's book, like some face-to-face meeting (not necessarily a fight).



You are likely correct, but man it would be nice to see a little deemphasis on wolverine in the next gen of X-men.


----------



## Rabulias (May 18, 2022)

Staffan said:


> My understanding is that at least in modern times, it's because there are some rights issues – I think Universal has (or had) distribution rights to Hulk movies. That's why, after the Edward Norton movie, Hulk has only been around as a guest star in the Avengers movies as well as Thor Ragnarok. If they make a "straight" Hulk movie Universal gets a piece of the pie, and why do that when you can instead do a movie where Marvel/Disney gets all the monies? But that means that there's no room for Hulk's supporting cast, given that Hulk is relegated to a supporting cast role himself.



Well they are getting to use Abomination in _Shang-Chi _and _She-Hulk. _It would be nice if they could hash out a deal like they did with Sony and Spider-Man, and we get a Hulk film with some MCU characters. I would love to see them followup on the Leader, maybe in a film set during the Blip, and show more of the Hulk and Bruce's integration into Professor Hulk.

Plus it has been years since they made a standalone Hulk film -- don't the rights revert to Marvel? I guess it depends on the terms, which might not be public.


----------



## Ryujin (May 18, 2022)

Morrus said:


> This looks kinda fun. I've never read the comics, but this looks like it's a comedy?



It should be more comedy than anything else, if loosely based on the most recent run of comics. They were more slice-of-life stuff based around her law practice and personal life.


----------



## Stalker0 (May 18, 2022)

I am curious to actually see the law side of this show, and who she is going to represent. Maybe we will see what's happened with the Sokovia accords after all this time. Maybe we will hear about some interesting cases with the blip (can you imagine all the lawsuits caused by that thing, it would be a lawyers paradise)


----------



## Zaukrie (May 18, 2022)

Looks fun, and I'll 100% watch this. I'd bet good money I like it more than Moon Knight.


----------



## billd91 (May 18, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Looks fun, and I'll 100% watch this. I'd bet good money I like it more than Moon Knight.



I loved Moon Knight and I'm looking forward to She-Hulk: Attorney at Law too.
I'm even hoping for an appearance by Tim Blake Nelson.


----------



## Umbran (May 18, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Plus it has been years since they made a standalone Hulk film -- don't the rights revert to Marvel? I guess it depends on the terms, which might not be public.




The issue with the Hulk is that the rights are complicated - Marvel does, in fact, have the rights to use the character in whatever they want.  However, Universal holds the rights to _distribute_ any Hulk-centric movies, and negotiations just haven't gone well.  So, we keep seeing him in supporting roles, but not starring roles.


----------



## MarkB (May 18, 2022)

Umbran said:


> The issue with the Hulk is that the rights are complicated - Marvel does, in fact, have the rights to use the character in whatever they want.  However, Universal holds the rights to _distribute_ any Hulk-centric movies, and negotiations just haven't gone well.  So, we keep seeing him in supporting roles, but not starring roles.



It's such a shame, the MCU version of the Hulk is a really well-rounded character. I'd have loved to see where they could take him in his own movie.


----------



## Tonguez (May 18, 2022)

MarkB said:


> It's such a shame, the MCU version of the Hulk is a really well-rounded character. I'd have loved to see where they could take him in his own movie.



Beyond the distribution rights issue there is also the issue of how to tell a convincing 2 hour Hulk story in the MCU - you either revert to the Nortonesque Hulk v Banner as a psychological ‘monster’ movie or a carry on the BannerHulk buddy scenario theyve taken us to. 

Because of the light comic tone of the MCU I actually think having the Hulk as a co-star is the better option for him.


----------



## MarkB (May 18, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Beyond the distribution rights issue there is also the issue of how to tell a convincing 2 hour Hulk story in the MCU - you either revert to the Nortonesque Hulk v Banner as a psychological ‘monster’ movie or a carry on the BannerHulk buddy scenario theyve taken us to.



Or, y'know, properly explore his journey from one to the other. The whole "that's my secret - I'm always angry" bit in the first Avengers movie and him subsequently being more in-control as the Hulk really opened the door to telling stories in which the Hulk wasn't just the rage-fuelled loose cannon. Being able to see that journey instead of just the brief edited highlights is what would have made for a compelling movie or two.


----------



## wicked cool (May 18, 2022)

They could go Mr fixit  grey hulk and that would probably satisfy the base.


----------



## Mort (May 18, 2022)

jdrakeh said:


> This looks like good fun, much in the same vein Hawkeye was. Can't wait to see it.




If it's nearly as good (or as fun) as Hawkeye - I'll be pretty happy!


----------



## Morrus (May 18, 2022)

MarkB said:


> It's such a shame, the MCU version of the Hulk is a really well-rounded character. I'd have loved to see where they could take him in his own movie.



Wouldn't mind seeing him win a fight for once. I think the last fight he won against a named character was Loki in the first Avengers film. Since then he's been beaten up by Iron Man, Thor, Thanos, and then spent some films refusing to show up, spent the final Thanos battle just lifting a big rock, and now he's all placid. I still don't feel like he's actually been unleashed yet (except vs unnamed goons, and everybody smashes them). He loses more fights than Worf!


----------



## Staffan (May 18, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Wouldn't mind seeing him win a fight for once. I think the last fight he won against a named character was Loki in the first Avengers film. Since then he's been beaten up by Iron Man, Thor, Thanos, and then spent some films refusing to show up, spent the final Thanos battle just lifting a big rock, and now he's all placid. I still don't feel like he's actually been unleashed yet (except vs unnamed goons, and everybody smashes them). He loses more fights than Worf!



I *think* Fenris counts as a named character, even if he doesn't exactly have any lines.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (May 18, 2022)

I see that it is going to be 9 episodes long and that sounds like a half-hour show. Has anyone seen confirmation on episode length yet?


----------



## Ryujin (May 18, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Wouldn't mind seeing him win a fight for once. I think the last fight he won against a named character was Loki in the first Avengers film. Since then he's been beaten up by Iron Man, Thor, Thanos, and then spent some films refusing to show up, spent the final Thanos battle just lifting a big rock, and now he's all placid. I still don't feel like he's actually been unleashed yet (except vs unnamed goons, and everybody smashes them). He loses more fights than Worf!



_No one_ loses more fights than Worf (mainly because he's had time for more fights).


----------



## Tonguez (May 18, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I see that it is going to be 9 episodes long and that sounds like a half-hour show. Has anyone seen confirmation on episode length yet?




Wikipedia says 9 30 minute episodes  (so 4.5 hrs) 
Marvel also announced that Kat Coiro is set to direct episodes 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, and 9 while Anu Valia directs episodes 5, 6, and 7.


----------



## Ryujin (May 18, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I see that it is going to be 9 episodes long and that sounds like a half-hour show. Has anyone seen confirmation on episode length yet?



Feige originally said 10, 1/2 hour episodes at the beginning of the year.









						She-Hulk: Kevin Feige Reveals Length and Episode Count for the Disney Plus Series - IGN
					

Kevin Feige tells IGN that Marvel's She-Hulk will have more episodes than either WandaVision or The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.




					www.ign.com


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (May 19, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Feige originally said 10, 1/2 hour episodes at the beginning of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...












						Disney+ Shortens Marvel's She-Hulk Season One Episode Count
					

Marvel fans got a pretty big surprise on Tuesday, when Marvel Studios released the first official [...]




					comicbook.com


----------



## Stalker0 (May 19, 2022)

Staffan said:


> I *think* Fenris counts as a named character, even if he doesn't exactly have any lines.



I’d have to rewatch the movie,‘but wasn’t fenris winning against the hulk until some help arrived?


----------



## Tonguez (May 19, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I’d have to rewatch the movie,‘but wasn’t fenris winning against the hulk until some help arrived?




Hulk and Fenris fall off the bridge and Hulk gets bitten, rag-dolled and dragged underwater - luckily Fenris falls off a waterfall which ends the battle


----------



## Staffan (May 19, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Hulk and Fenris fall off the bridge and Hulk gets bitten, rag-dolled and dragged underwater - luckily Fenris falls off a waterfall which ends the battle



Hulk *punches* Fenris off a waterfall.


----------



## Ixal (May 19, 2022)

Hm, ok.
She kinda looks like whatever species Gamora is.


----------



## embee (May 19, 2022)

The acting doesn't even begin to hold a candle to Sir Laurence Olivier in _Wuthering Heights_, the dialogue lacks the bite and intensity of _Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf_, and the camera work is something that Gordon Parks would be ashamed of.

However, those are all highly unfair comparisons.

It looks mildly entertaining as compared to the other Marvel streaming offerings. I will likely find it diverting as I devote a portion of my attention to it while hanging out with my wife, folding laundry and/or derping on Twitter.

In short, it looks cromulent.


----------



## trappedslider (May 28, 2022)

Marvel Appears to Have Updated the 'She-Hulk' Trailer After Fans Complained About the CGI
					

She-Hulk: Attorney At Law's trailer has had its CGI updated following a Marvel fan backlash.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Ryujin (May 28, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Marvel Appears to Have Updated the 'She-Hulk' Trailer After Fans Complained About the CGI
> 
> 
> She-Hulk: Attorney At Law's trailer has had its CGI updated following a Marvel fan backlash.
> ...



The CGI is a _little_ better. More detail.


----------



## Morrus (May 28, 2022)

Ixal said:


> Hm, ok.
> She kinda looks like whatever species Gamora is.



I guess green will do that.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (May 28, 2022)

Gamora is done with make-up and not CGI and is the same height/size as the actress. She-hulk is CGI instead because she is also a foot or so taller than the actual actress when in Hulk form, so they have to do all CGI and not practical effects for it to all match up and her face/head to stay in proper dimensions for her body and height. But I guess to some people, all green people look the same.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 29, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Gamora is done with make-up and not CGI and is the same height/size as the actress. She-hulk is CGI instead because she is also a foot or so taller than the actual actress when in Hulk form, so they have to do all CGI and not practical effects for it to all match up and her face/head to stay in proper dimensions for her body and height. But I guess to some people, all green people look the same.



Couldn't they switch her out for Lou Ferringo?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (May 29, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Couldn't they switch her out for Lou Ferringo?




They could have painted Gina Carano green and used her, but instead of a Hulk, she turns in to an ass.


----------



## Ixal (May 30, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Gamora is done with make-up and not CGI and is the same height/size as the actress. She-hulk is CGI instead because she is also a foot or so taller than the actual actress when in Hulk form, so they have to do all CGI and not practical effects for it to all match up and her face/head to stay in proper dimensions for her body and height. But I guess to some people, all green people look the same.



And yet when you put her and Gamora next to each other no one, without Marvel knowledge, hardly anyone would think that they are not the same species.
It doesn't help that both of them have the same "slim and fit" body type.
They should have given her at least some abs and muscles to make her more Hulk like. Maybe not bodybuilder on steroids muscle but at least olympic atlethe level and not a "I stay healthy with yoga" body.
More like:


			https://854627.smushcdn.com/1843341/wp-content/uploads/elementor/thumbs/110245984_3190017917731042_4960169645737851068_o-p1parst0pnroy3sed5w8aod84ddn9wwx8zqxcn5fa8.jpg?lossy=1&strip=1&webp=1


----------



## Morrus (May 30, 2022)

Ixal said:


> And yet when you put her and Gamora next to each other no one, without Marvel knowledge, hardly anyone would think that they are not the same species.
> It doesn't help that both of them have the same "slim and fit" body type.
> They should have given her at least some abs and muscles to make her more Hulk like. Maybe not bodybuilder on steroids muscle but at least olympic atlethe level and not a "I stay healthy with yoga" body.
> More like:
> ...



This is a kinda weird post.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 24, 2022)

There's a new She-Hulk trailer out from SDCC:



CGI is still looking a little iffy and this is coming out soon.


----------



## Davies (Jul 24, 2022)

And we have fourth-wall-breakage.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 24, 2022)

Davies said:


> And we have fourth-wall-breakage.



Yes, but watch. Some TV critic is going to claim that they’re trying to copy Fleabag rather than realize it comes from the source.


----------



## Davies (Jul 24, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Yes, but watch. Some TV critic is going to claim that they’re trying to copy *Fleabag* rather than realize it comes from the source.



... I don't know what that is. And please don't try and explain.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 24, 2022)

Davies said:


> ... I don't know what that is. And please don't try and explain.



It’s a show on Amazon Prime written by and starring Phoebe Waller-Bridge. It’s magnificent and well worth checking out.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 24, 2022)

The tiktok aside earned a laugh from me, looks like what I expected. Cool to see lots of super cameos and broken 4th walls


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 24, 2022)

Is Wong becoming the new Nick Fury....gathering all teh superheroes to form the next Avengers. If so......WONG!

My one worry is something you see with a lot of these "taking over the old character's reigns" type stories that marvel is doing, it seems like we have another example of "She Hulk is just better than Hulk". She's as strong, but better in control, AND more balanced AND learns it more quickly, etc. Might not be how it turns out in the show (perhaps she starts that way until she hits a wall and really needs Bruce's help or something), but that's the vibe from the trailer.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Is Wong becoming the new Nick Fury....gathering all teh superheroes to form the next Avengers. If so......WONG!
> 
> My one worry is something you see with a lot of these "taking over the old character's reigns" type stories that marvel is doing, it seems like we have another example of "She Hulk is just better than Hulk". She's as strong, but better in control, AND more balanced AND learns it more quickly, etc. Might not be how it turns out in the show (perhaps she starts that way until she hits a wall and really needs Bruce's help or something), but that's the vibe from the trailer.



Not a comic expert, but . . . it's my understanding this is from the source. Bruce had to struggle against his "hulk", but Jennifer had (mostly) full control from the start. While the characters are of course related, She-Hulk (despite the name) isn't just a female hulk . . . they have different character arcs and struggles.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 24, 2022)

pukunui said:


> CGI is still looking a little iffy and this is coming out soon.



I'm fine with the CGI. It's close to Banner's look from Endgame, with a smaller budget. It's still hard to fully animate human-like figures without some degree of uncanny valley.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 24, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> Not a comic expert, but . . . it's my understanding this is from the source. Bruce had to struggle against his "hulk", but Jennifer had (mostly) full control from the start. While the characters are of course related, She-Hulk (despite the name) isn't just a female hulk . . . they have different character arcs and struggles.



Yeah, Jen knows Martial Arts (better agility) and also has better mental control - her transition to Hulk is gentler since she wasnt bombarded with mutating Gamma so doesnt suffer excess rage - however she is always depicted as less strong or durable than the Hulk.
I suspect the rock throwing scene was Hulk ‘taking it easy’ but Jen wanting to push things to show ‘she can do it’. This is Smart Banner-Hulk though so who knows what they’ll do with him.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 24, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah, Jen knows Martial Arts (better agility) and also has better mental control - her transition to Hulk is gentler since she wasnt bombarded with mutating Gamma so doesnt suffer excess rage - however she is always depicted as less strong or durable than the Hulk.
> I suspect the rock throwing scene was Hulk ‘taking it easy’ but Jen wanting to push things to show ‘she can do it’. This is Smart Banner-Hulk though so who knows what they’ll do with him.



One thing to bear in mind is that Bruce doesn't really _like_ accessing his full rage and physical strength. He may have come to terms with his Hulk side during the Blip, but he's probably still going to have trouble going all-out in a physical contest even if he wants to.

Also, he looks better here, but there's no telling whether his arm ever fully recovered from getting Infinity-Gauntleted.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 24, 2022)

Nice to see Daredevil at the end.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 24, 2022)

MarkB said:


> One thing to bear in mind is that Bruce doesn't really _like_ accessing his full rage and physical strength. He may have come to terms with his Hulk side during the Blip, but he's probably still going to have trouble going all-out in a physical contest even if he wants to.
> 
> Also, he looks better here, but there's no telling whether his arm ever fully recovered from getting Infinity-Gauntleted.



If you watch that scene, it's clear they are not putting equal effort into the lob.


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 24, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Nice to see Daredevil at the end.


----------



## Staffan (Jul 24, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah, Jen knows Martial Arts (better agility) and also has better mental control - her transition to Hulk is gentler since she wasnt bombarded with mutating Gamma so doesnt suffer excess rage - however she is always depicted as less strong or durable than the Hulk.



Back in the 80s RPG, She-Hulk had Monstrous Strength (on par with the Thing and one notch below Hulk and Thor at Unearthly), plus Hulk had his Rage ability that increased his Strength and Fighting ranks by one every round.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Jul 24, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> They could have painted Gina Carano green and used her, but instead of a Hulk, she turns in to an ass.




 Not cool.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Aug 3, 2022)

For anyone not seeing the announcement, Disney has just posted that She-hulk will be on Thursday nights, not Wednesday, so the first episode will debut on Aug 18th, not the 17th.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 7, 2022)

Official still of Matt Murdock from She hulk


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Aug 14, 2022)

If the people acting out were not so sad and pitiful, it would be hilarious how they are reacting to the news that She-Hulk will show a lighter side of Daredevil and not the dark, violent version from the Netflix show.

Also, there were apparently all sorts of obscure Marvel characters that they wanted to use in the show, but Marvel said no to some because they already have plans for them elsewhere. I really want to know who they could be.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 14, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> If the people acting out were not so sad and pitiful, it would be hilarious how they are reacting to the news that She-Hulk will show a lighter side of Daredevil and not the dark, violent version from the Netflix show.
> 
> Also, there were apparently all sorts of obscure Marvel characters that they wanted to use in the show, but Marvel said no to some because they already have plans for them elsewhere. I really want to know who they could be.



We know they weren’t allowed Spider-Man so I assume his rogues were off limits too, probably the likes of stiltman etc and armoured villains being kept for Armor Wars etc. 

And yeah it makes me laugh when people forget the comic means light entertainment


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 14, 2022)

Ixal said:


> And yet when you put her and Gamora next to each other no one, without Marvel knowledge, hardly anyone would think that they are not the same species.
> It doesn't help that both of them have the same "slim and fit" body type.
> They should have given her at least some abs and muscles to make her more Hulk like. Maybe not bodybuilder on steroids muscle but at least olympic atlethe level and not a "I stay healthy with yoga" body.
> More like:
> ...



I've seen a lot of complaints online about She-Hulk not being muscular enough. My gut feeling is if they made her more muscular people would be complaining about that instead. In the comics She-Hulk's muscularity varies from artist to artist but she is probably more frequently drawn close to how she appears in the TV show.


----------



## Blue Orange (Aug 14, 2022)

So they mashed together the young-single-woman-in-the-city genre and the superhero genre. Creative, bit of a play to extend the audience probably. (Though I believe the character was always written like this from my knowledge of Marvel?)


----------



## Davies (Aug 14, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> So they mashed together the young-single-woman-in-the-city genre and the superhero genre. Creative, bit of a play to extend the audience probably. (Though I believe the character was always written like this from my knowledge of Marvel?)



Eh, sort of. In her first run, Jen was basically the Hulk made fan-servicey -- she'd turn into the She-Hulk whenever stressed and run amok, usually thwarting villainous schemes in the process. Then she got control over the transformations, was inducted into the Avengers and given a bit more dignity, then became a member of the Fantastic Four and wound up stuck in She-Hulk form, and then, in the late 80s, she got her own series again where she frequently broke the fourth wall and there was a lot more attention paid to her attempts to live a mundane life and practice law. The latter became an even bigger feature of some of her later series.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 14, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> So they mashed together the young-single-woman-in-the-city genre and the superhero genre. Creative, bit of a play to extend the audience probably. (Though I believe the character was always written like this from my knowledge of Marvel?)



1980 - debut of Savage She-Hulk a raging amazon type (created to ensure Universal Television couldnt use the Bionic Womans success as an reason to spin off a female Hulk of their own). While she was angier, even as Savage She-Hulk she was much slimmer and more talkative than The Hulk.
1982 - becomes an Avenger
1984 - joins Fantastic 4

1985 - Sensational She-Hulk gets a graphic novel where John Byrne reimagines her sexier, and confident in her Hulkiness and inspired by the Moonlighting tv series makes her fully aware that she is in a comic book.

1989 - Sensational She-Hulk gets her own series that emphasizes the comedic style, even to the extent of directly arguing with the writer and physically crossing the white lines between comic panels, also pushes the comics code of acceptable sexiness. The series runs till 1994 (a long time in comics)

After these she floundered around wth low sales or guest spots, her greatest foe is revealed to be John Byrne, until

2004 She-Hulk returns written by Dan Slott who emphasizes her Lawyer career, less meta but maintains the comedy. Dann Slott also gives us Single Green Female with all that implies

2008 gets a replacement and 2009 goes Red

since 2010 has been a secondary character in the Hulk books, or appeared with Avengers, F4 or Heroes for Hire etc

(note a couple of edits made)


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 14, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> 1980 - debut of Savage She-Hulk a raging amazon type (created to ensure Universal Television couldnt use the Bionic Womans success as an reason to spin off a female Hulk of their own). While she was angier, even as Savage She-Hulk she was much slimmer and more talkative than The Hulk.
> 1982 - becomes an Avenger
> 1984 - joins Fantastic 4
> 
> ...



A fairly accurate timeline but Byrne's reimagining, if you want to call it that, really started with Roger Stern's Avengers and Byrne upped the ante in FF. She-Hulk's graphic novel wasn't where She-Hulk's awareness of being in a comic started (that's where Jen got "permanently" stuck as She-Hulk), that wasn't until her later solo series, also done by Byrne, and she started breaking the fourth wall.

I would also dispute John Byrne being her "greatest enemy". She-Hulk, as we know her today, wouldn't exist without Byrne's long tenure with the character.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 14, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I would also dispute John Byrne being her "greatest enemy". She-Hulk, as we know her today, wouldn't exist without Byrne's long tenure with the character.



thats actually a quote used in one of the graphic novels, where She-Hulk attempts to climb out of the comic and beat up the writer (Byrne), of course she gets pulled back because there might be readers watching… John Byrne went very meta and played up their arguing as a trope, and yes he was very very influential.

good point about the earlier stuff in Avengers and FF, especially as Byrne was lead on FF too


----------



## Blue Orange (Aug 15, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> A fairly accurate timeline but Byrne's reimagining, if you want to call it that, really started with Roger Stern's Avengers and Byrne upped the ante in FF. She-Hulk's graphic novel wasn't where She-Hulk's awareness of being in a comic started (that's where Jen got "permanently" stuck as She-Hulk), that wasn't until her later solo series, also done by Byrne, and she started breaking the fourth wall.
> 
> I would also dispute John Byrne being her "greatest enemy". She-Hulk, as we know her today, wouldn't exist without Byrne's long tenure with the character.




He's her greatest enemy in-comic. IRL of course the whole meta thing was a great breakout moment for the character.

Kind of like the way Optimus Prime's death was bad for the character, but wound up being great for the series by increasing the emotional depth (though of course it was only initially done to sell toys) and made Optimus Prime a much more memorable character and probably helped keep the series going as long as it did.

Thanks for clearing all that up!


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 15, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> thats actually a quote used in one of the graphic novels, where She-Hulk attempts to climb out of the comic and beat up the writer (Byrne), of course she gets pulled back because there might be readers watching… John Byrne went very meta and played up their arguing as a trope, and yes he was very very influential.
> 
> good point about the earlier stuff in Avengers and FF, especially as Byrne was lead on FF too



You're right, I totally forgot about that. Good call


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 15, 2022)

This is not a paid advertisement

Don’t get Angry, Get a Lawyer


----------



## Mad_Jack (Aug 15, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Don’t get Angry, Get a Lawyer




 A really angry lawyer...


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 16, 2022)

The number actually works,i'm not going to spoil it


----------



## pukunui (Aug 16, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> The number actually works,i'm not going to spoil it



Maybe you could spoil it for those of us living outside the USA?


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 16, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Maybe you could spoil it for those of us living outside the USA?



+1-877-743-4855
Single digit (international code) - three digits (typically area code) - three digits (more local number) - four digits (the last four numbers)
Dial 001 instead of +1 if you’re on a landline.

Be prepared for international call charges. or you can use google voice



Spoiler



The big, green legal machine appears to be pitching her services to Tony Stark (Robert Downey Jr.) and Thor (Chris Hemsworth), among others. Walters is heard workshopping the script, with someone in the background giving her notes. "Hi, you've reached the superhuman law division at GLK&H," Walters says before someone tells her to "record it as She-Hulk." Walters retorts, "You know they can't see me, right? Okay, whatever."

After informing potential clients how important their call is to her, Walters pitches her legal services. "Have you been fined for thousands of dollars for damage to the city you were trying to protect? Did you accidentally create a sentient robot who got the feels and tried to destroy the world? Maybe you're an Asgardian god who leaves a giant, burning imprint on private property every time you arrive on Earth."


----------



## pukunui (Aug 18, 2022)

First episode is up. The girls and I enjoyed it.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 18, 2022)

Just watched, enjoyed though lots was spoiled in trailers, how they explained the difference between Jen hulk and Bruce hulk was plausible, generally what I expected though could do with more action. I still dont like Smart-Hulk, the mid-credits scene was the funniest ‘joke’ and not even about Hulks


----------



## Mort (Aug 18, 2022)

Fun episode. I enjoyed it.

Hope that's not all we see of Jamila Jameel!


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 18, 2022)

what the heck was a Sakaaran class-eight courier craft doing there? Looks someone or something managed to put a bullet hole in an Iron Man helmet. Also at least we now know that Cap didn't "die" a virgin lol


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Aug 18, 2022)

Yeah, that was a lot of fun, and while I was avoiding reading early reviews for it, I now see why a rag like The Daily Beast called it trash in the title of it's review.   lol


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 18, 2022)

I thought it was a lot of fun. While I generally hate all of the GCI in modern movies (at least CGI people) I do think She-Hulk looked a lot better in the show than in the early trailers. 

The after credits scene was funny too.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 18, 2022)

Here's Chris Evan's repsonse to the mid credits


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 18, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> what the heck was a Sakaaran class-eight courier craft doing there? Looks someone or something managed to put a bullet hole in an Iron Man helmet. Also at least we now know that Cap didn't "die" a virgin lol



It was Ultrons head, from the Pinocchio scene.
and I guess Hulk may have left a little something back on Sakaar who is now come to visit


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 18, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> It was Ultrons head, from the Pinocchio scene.
> and I guess Hulk may have left a little something back on Sakaar who is now come to visit



The ladies sure seemed to like the big green boy.

Is it my imagination, or did they clean up the She Hulk CGI a bit more before release? I'm seeing less Uncanny Valley. Though Hulk is still choppy.


----------



## Davies (Aug 18, 2022)

<at Hulk brawl scene> Ah, God, Bruce, just admit that you're lonely.


----------



## Cadence (Aug 19, 2022)

That was fun!   The post-credit part was amusing, but I might turn it off before the post-credit scene if I watch it with with my 12yo.


----------



## DeviousQuail (Aug 19, 2022)

I appreciate the first episode doing a ton of heavy lifting setting up Jen's character. How she got the powers, a basic idea of her capabilities and limits, motivations, etc. We don't get much in the way of what's coming next but they have succeeded in convincing me to stick around for episode 2.

Who am I kidding? I was going to watch every episode anyway.


----------



## MarkB (Aug 19, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> and I guess Hulk may have left a little something back on Sakaar who is now come to visit



Fingers crossed it's the Grandmaster coming to seek asylum from his rebellious former subjects just hang out with his old pal for no particular reason.


----------



## Aeson (Aug 19, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I still dont like Smart-Hulk,



I'm glad I'm not the only one. I don't care for Mark Ruffalo's voice coming out of The Hulk. Hulk SMASH or nuttin.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 19, 2022)

She-Hulk: 12 MCU Easter Eggs & Hidden Details In Episode 1
					

Here's every Easter egg in the world-building She-Hulk season premiere on Disney+.




					thedirect.com
				




Did you catch them all?


----------



## Mezuka (Aug 19, 2022)

It was a lot of fun. We loved Tatiana in Black Orphan. Looks like the perfect role for her.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 19, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> It was a lot of fun. We loved Tatiana in Black Orphan. Looks like the perfect role for her.



In this one she only effectively has to play _two_ characters. Easy, peasy.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Aug 19, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one. I don't care for Mark Ruffalo's voice coming out of The Hulk. Hulk SMASH or nuttin.




Yeah, as much as everything else is good with Hulk and Banner, Mark's voice coming out of the Hulk has always been jarring. Everything about the Hulk is bigger: lungs, vocal cords, etc. That means he really should have a deeper voice, even in Smart Hulk form.


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 19, 2022)

One thing I didn't get is why have Ruffalo in Hulk form for the vast majority of the episode. I'm not talking from a story perspective but just from a financial one. There were plenty of scenes that would have played out the same with Banner as with Hulk. It seems like budgetary constraints led to fewer scenes with She-Hulk so maybe less Hulk would have helped resolve that?









						She-Hulk Writer Was Asked To Cut CGI Scenes Due To Budget Constraints
					

She-Hulk won't have as many She-Hulk appearances as initially planned.




					www.thegamer.com


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 19, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> One thing I didn't get is why have Ruffalo in Hulk form for the vast majority of the episode. I'm not talking from a story perspective but just from a financial one. There were plenty of scenes that would have played out the same with Banner as with Hulk. It seems like budgetary constraints led to fewer scenes with She-Hulk so maybe less Hulk would have helped resolve that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good point there, especially when the cheaped out on an actual transformation scene for him. Maybe that was limited by time constraints?


----------



## Mezuka (Aug 19, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> One thing I didn't get is why have Ruffalo in Hulk form for the vast majority of the episode. I'm not talking from a story perspective but just from a financial one. There were plenty of scenes that would have played out the same with Banner as with Hulk. It seems like budgetary constraints led to fewer scenes with She-Hulk so maybe less Hulk would have helped resolve that?



Availability of Ruffalo at time of shooting? Voice over is less expensive than paying full salary of the actor to be on site.


----------



## MarkB (Aug 19, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> One thing I didn't get is why have Ruffalo in Hulk form for the vast majority of the episode. I'm not talking from a story perspective but just from a financial one. There were plenty of scenes that would have played out the same with Banner as with Hulk. It seems like budgetary constraints led to fewer scenes with She-Hulk so maybe less Hulk would have helped resolve that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The whole point of the sequence was how much easier Jennifer was having it than Bruce did. Having him able to casually slip back into human form would have undermined that.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 19, 2022)

MarkB said:


> The whole point of the sequence was how much easier Jennifer was having it than Bruce did. Having him able to casually slip back into human form would have undermined that.



They could have just had him fix his inhibitor, then show it not working for Jen


----------



## MarkB (Aug 19, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> They could have just had him fix his inhibitor, then show it not working for Jen



Which would have undermined the hard time he was having.


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 20, 2022)

MarkB said:


> The whole point of the sequence was how much easier Jennifer was having it than Bruce did. Having him able to casually slip back into human form would have undermined that.



I get that, my point was more about finances rather than story.


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 20, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Availability of Ruffalo at time of shooting? Voice over is less expensive than paying full salary of the actor to be on site.



Compared to the expense of Marvel CGI? Let alone the stress it puts on the VFX artists.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 20, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Which would have undermined the hard time he was having.



would it though, its been a while since endgame and they already established he had the device so fixing it just returns to status quo. Personally I'd have then used it in a running gag of the beeps on his heart counter constantly rising every time he interacts with Jen and him having to take a moment to calm his emotions - until it rises too quickly and he Hulks out (leading to their bar fight)


----------



## Mezuka (Aug 20, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Compared to the expense of Marvel CGI? Let alone the stress it puts on the VFX artists.



Do you have comparative numbers? 
I'm sure VFX artists prefer working, than not working...


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 20, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Do you have comparative numbers?
> I'm sure VFX artists prefer working, than not working...



Comparative numbers? No, but there are plenty of articles talking about the treatment of VFX artists by Marvel Studios. Here, here, here, here, and here are just a few articles. A simple Goggle search will turn up a ton more and I am seeing more of these all of the time. I have read some articles that talk about some (no idea how many) VFX artists quitting the industry because Marvel is such a pain to work for.


----------



## Mezuka (Aug 20, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Comparative numbers? No, but there are plenty of articles talking about the treatment of VFX artists by Marvel Studios. Here, here, here, here, and here are just a few articles. A simple Goggle search will turn up a ton more and I am seeing more of these all of the time. I have read some articles that talk about some (no idea how many) VFX artists quitting the industry because Marvel is such a pain to work for.



Are you there Union Rep now?  

Anyway this is thread derailing. I'll get back to only commenting the episodes and not what is going on behind the scenes.


----------



## bloodtide (Aug 21, 2022)

It was a great start!  

She Hulk looked great, I'm glad they went with the classic "Athletic" look and not the "mass of muscle body builder" look. 

The training and showing off her powers was a nice touch, even more so for non comic reader viewers.  She hulk is slightly less strong, but way more agile and dexterous.  

I noticed the lawyer bit at the end was adapted from the She Hulk Solo Avengers story (somewhere in the teen issue number wise).   Jennifer goes to court(as she hulk as she was stuck as a hulk for years at this point), but before she can get to the case Titania attacks, just for fun.  The bit at the end where Jennifer fixes her torn clothing in court is right from the issue.  And when we see the "court sketches", one of them, tall nervous She Hulk  in an elevator with a bung of people IS the Splash Page(aka first page) of that story.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 21, 2022)

Why does her hair go straight? I didn't know gamma rays did that.


----------



## Janx (Aug 21, 2022)

We enjoyed it. We want more.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 21, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Why does her hair go straight? I didn't know gamma rays did that.



I’m sure if Gamma can buff people up to be green and muscular, it can do a nice brush and blow wave too


----------



## Janx (Aug 22, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Why does her hair go straight? I didn't know gamma rays did that.




Know any women with straight hair now, but curly as a kid, or the inverse.

Guess what causes that?

Hormones.

Never mind that her mass and bones grow and shrink at will.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 22, 2022)

Janx said:


> Guess what causes that?



Hair straighteners.


----------



## Morrus (Aug 23, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Why does her hair go straight? I didn't know gamma rays did that.



Gamma rays don't do any of that stuff.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 23, 2022)

Conditioner


----------



## MarkB (Aug 25, 2022)

A less eventful second episode, but still enjoyable. Emil was a fun character.

They still enjoy a nice mid-credits scene.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Aug 25, 2022)

MarkB said:


> They still enjoy a nice mid-credits scene.




Every episode is supposed to have a mid-credits scene, so I hope people are not skipping them.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 25, 2022)

I really liked the second ep, nice slice of life with some corny jokes and nods to the avengers.

and did you guys see the Wolverine reference on the weird job webpage?


----------



## Rabulias (Aug 25, 2022)

And I wonder what they are setting up for OG Hulk? Going back to Sakaar? And where will we see it play out? A new Hulk film?


----------



## Rabulias (Aug 25, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> and did you guys see the Wolverine reference on the weird job webpage?



Yes! There is also a reference to_ Eternals._


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 25, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> And I wonder what they are setting up for OG Hulk? Going back to Sakaar? And where will we see it play out? A new Hulk film?



My guess: in the Guardians of the Galaxy Christmas special.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 25, 2022)

I couldn't help be reminded of the toilets in _City of Heroes_: male, female and hulk.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 25, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> My guess in the Guardians of the Galaxy Christmas special.



I had entirely forgotten they were doing a Christmas special, good call! 
now to start speculating on who else they might be inviting to that…


----------



## DeviousQuail (Aug 25, 2022)

What a fun episode. Just a good time and a nice little bit of world building. Definitely need to check the mcu timeline again. Didn't realize everything we'd seen so far was pre Shang-Chi.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Aug 25, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> What a fun episode. Just a good time and a nice little bit of world building. Definitely need to check the mcu timeline again. Didn't realize everything we'd seen so far was pre Shang-Chi.




It is still post-Shang-Chi. Remember in the post credit scene, Bruce is still human and his arm is still injured, but he fixes his arm in episode one. Abomination had probably gone to the fight club multiple times before he was finally seen out of his cell and caught on camera. The official timeline I saw currently shows only Ms Marvel happening after She-Hulk.


----------



## Staffan (Aug 25, 2022)

I was surprised and mildly disappointed that we didn't see more Titania, as I am intensely curious about what they'll do with her. She clearly can't have her original origin story as that's linked to both the original Secret Wars and to Doctor Doom.

But then again, Tim Roth/Emil Blonsky is pretty cool too.


----------



## Rabulias (Aug 26, 2022)

Staffan said:


> I was surprised and mildly disappointed that we didn't see more Titania, as I am intensely curious about what they'll do with her. She clearly can't have her original origin story as that's linked to both the original Secret Wars and to Doctor Doom.



I think we will see her again before the series is finished. I also had to laugh that she was mad about being in _traffic _court.  I guess even super-villains get tickets!


----------



## DeviousQuail (Aug 26, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> It is still post-Shang-Chi. Remember in the post credit scene, Bruce is still human and his arm is still injured, but he fixes his arm in episode one. Abomination had probably gone to the fight club multiple times before he was finally seen out of his cell and caught on camera. The official timeline I saw currently shows only Ms Marvel happening after She-Hulk.



So the breakout happened previously and he was brought back to the prison without anyone knowing? I guess I misunderstood that when Jen turned on the tv. Thanks.


----------



## Rune (Aug 26, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> So the breakout happened previously and he was brought back to the prison without anyone knowing? I guess I misunderstood that when Jen turned on the tv. Thanks.



We saw Wong return him to his cell in Shang Chi. Presumably the same way he got out: through a portal. Also, I’m pretty sure it was established that those fights were live-streamed.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I really liked the second ep, nice slice of life with some corny jokes and nods to the avengers.
> 
> and did you guys see the Wolverine reference on the weird job webpage?






Rabulias said:


> Yes! There is also a reference to_ Eternals._







and her phone's wallpaper




Also nice acknowledgment of the change of actors from Norton to Ruffalo


----------



## Mezuka (Aug 26, 2022)

e2: Ah family! 

The episodes are too short.


----------



## Zaukrie (Aug 26, 2022)

The best part was the line about being a totally different person. It's a fine show, but more ok than great for me. I'll keep watching, as I'm mildly amused most of the time....


----------



## Dire Bare (Aug 26, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I think we will see her again before the series is finished. I also had to laugh that she was mad about being in _traffic _court.  I guess even super-villains get tickets!



Also, she was described as a super-powered _influencer_ . . . . HA!


----------



## Rabulias (Aug 26, 2022)

I believe we will get more of the Wong-Emil backstory, which I am looking forward to. I mean, really, how did these two connect? And get into a super-enhanced fight club? Perhaps Emil's new-found spirituality is part of Wong's influence?


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 26, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I believe we will get more of the Wong-Emil backstory, which I am looking forward to. I mean, really, how did these two connect? And get into a super-enhanced fight club? Perhaps Emil's new-found spirituality is part of Wong's influence?



And perhaps Emil's escape was the result of a carefully placed portal?


----------



## Rabulias (Aug 26, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> And perhaps Emil's escape was the result of a carefully placed portal?



The impression I got from _Shang-Chi_ was that Wong was portalling Emil out of his cell for their fight club activities, then returning him to his cell. They seemed to have a strange friendship in their dialog there.

I don't think Emil has escaped, but video evidence of his out-of-jail activities has come to light, jeopardizing his parole case. Perhaps the video leak was done by unscrupulous forces that want Emil to stay where he is? The timing is suspiciously convenient...

When I saw Wong and Emil in _Shang-Chi_, I thought maybe it was some kind of supervised release sessions, but this episode seems to put that in doubt. At any rate, Jen will get in touch with Wong to get the details, leading to his appearance we have seen in the trailers.

Edited to add: I had also assumed that Emil was being kept in the Raft, but it looks like that's not so. Or maybe he has been moved to the land-based facility as part of his parole case?


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Aug 26, 2022)

Saw a clip of Jen telling the Hulk that's had to control her anger all her life more then him, ignoring all thay absolute horrifying, painful, rage inducing things that have happened to him, like losing the women he loves, being hunted by the military, and so, so much more just turned my stomach so much I want nothing to do with this show. You folks seem to enjoy it so I'm happy for you, it's not for me.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 26, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I think we will see her again before the series is finished. I also had to laugh that she was mad about being in _traffic _court.  I guess even super-villains get tickets!



Confirmed to return episode 5


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Saw a clip of Jen telling the Hulk that's had to control her anger all her life more then him, ignoring all thay absolute horrifying, painful, rage inducing things that have happened to him, like losing the women he loves, being hunted by the military, and so, so much more just turned my stomach so much I want nothing to do with this show. You folks seem to enjoy it so I'm happy for you, it's not for me.



wow...I'm guessing you missed what she listed as to why she's had to hold it in. It's why the show has been getting review bombed by folks who don't like her "why" statement.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 26, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Edited to add: I had also assumed that Emil was being kept in the Raft, but it looks like that's not so. Or maybe he has been moved to the land-based facility as part of his parole case?



maybe theyre following the lead of Marvel Animated Universe where Gamma irridiated villains were kept in their own prison (Cube), whereas the Raft was for dangerous ‘normal’ villains and the Vault was for tech-based villains

but yeah Wong illegally taking Abomination out of jail to the underground fight club seems a bit weird, I do hope they give it a reasonable explanation


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Aug 26, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> wow...I'm guessing you missed what she listed as to why she's had to hold it in. It's why the show has been getting review bombed by folks who don't like her "why" statement.




 No I didn't miss it, it's just annoyances like that don't compare to loved ones dying horribly, or being hunted by the military, or all the carnage of innocent folks he's seen, or being forced to be a Gladitator, having your body hijacked by a walking disaster for years, having his are maimed by Thanos's glove, and so much more. Idiots cat calling you and getting your period doesn't compare to that. I'm not a fan of cat calling, periods sound like they suck, but comparing it to a walking tragedy like the Hulk is just narrassistic (and hypocritical given how she talks about Captain America). 

 And plenty of women agree with me on this. 

 Look if you like the show enjoy, it's just not something I'd like.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 26, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> No I didn't miss it, it's just annoyances like that don't compare to loved ones dying horribly, or being hunted by the military, or all the carnage of innocent folks he's seen, or being forced to be a Gladitator, having your body hijacked by a walking disaster for years, having his are maimed by Thanos's glove, and so much more. Idiots cat calling you and getting your period doesn't compare to that. I'm not a fan of cat calling, periods sound like they suck, but comparing it to a walking tragedy like the Hulk is just narrassistic (and hypocritical given how she talks about Captain America).
> 
> And plenty of women agree with me on this.
> 
> Look if you like the show enjoy, it's just not something I'd like.



To be fair a lot of that was experienced by "The Other Guy" and Banner has no memory of it.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Aug 26, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> To be fair a lot of that was experienced by "The Other Guy" and Banner has no memory of it.




 Some of that was, most of it wasn't, Bruce loved both women, Tony Stark was his friend. All I'm saying is it was very tone def and put her in a very bad light, some compassion would have been nice.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 26, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Some of that was, most of it wasn't, Bruce loved both women, Tony Stark was his friend. All I'm saying is it was very tone def and put her in a very bad light, some compassion would have been nice.



The episode was called “A normal amount of Rage” and was about Bruce using his experience of Rage to guide Jens experience. I  thought the comparison being made was acknowledging that Bruce had major trauma and thus his Rage is Dysfunctional and dangerous and took him 10 years+ to control - Jen doesn’t have that trauma, she experiences the normal rage of every modern woman and has learnt coping strategies that allow her to maintain a controlled form (at least until she goes savage).

It’s not discounting Bruce’s trauma, just making it clear that the two Hulks are different and can’t be compared. It’s also a comedy and Jens show, so sure it may not have been presented with due gravitas


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> The episode was called “A normal amount of Rage” and was about Bruce using his experience of Rage to guide Jens experience. I  thought the comparison being made was acknowledging that Bruce had major trauma and thus his Rage is Dysfunctional and dangerous and took him 10 years+ to control - Jen doesn’t have that trauma, she experiences the normal rage of every modern woman and has learnt coping strategies that allow her to maintain a controlled form (at least until she goes savage).



I was going to attempt to type something up along those lines but you did it faster and better.

The whole thing was for Bruce to help Jen to get to the same point only WITHOUT her dealing with the trauma he dealt with. Turns out that due to being who she is and her own DIFFERENT life experiences she doesn't need the whole training on merging and becoming one.

Even Bruce is like "Well, ummm okay this is new" and has very little idea other than helping her realize that being part hulk is something she needs to not embrace but get used to.


----------



## Dire Bare (Aug 27, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Saw a clip of Jen telling the Hulk that's had to control her anger all her life more then him, ignoring all thay absolute horrifying, painful, rage inducing things that have happened to him, like losing the women he loves, being hunted by the military, and so, so much more just turned my stomach so much I want nothing to do with this show. You folks seem to enjoy it so I'm happy for you, it's not for me.



Oh my goodness, you really missed the point of that scene, didn't you.

Bruce Banner, BEFORE he became the Hulk, had a pretty good life. Good job as a scientist, pretty girlfriend . . . . once the accident happened and he became the Hulk, then his life went to crap and he spent a long time mastering himself to overcome his rage.

Jennifer Walters BEFORE she became the She-Hulk . . . well, that's what her speech was all about. As a woman, and woman professional lawyer, she's had to master her rage all her life, which made her transition to Hulk-dom much easier than it was for her cousin.

Bruce, in that scene, reacted much as you did. He was to focused on his own experience to listen to Jenn's point-of-view, although he does come around.

This show treats the difficulties women go through in our society pretty damn well. It can be hard for some dudes to get over their privilege to see it though.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Aug 27, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> Oh my goodness, you really missed the point of that scene, didn't you.
> 
> Bruce Banner, BEFORE he became the Hulk, had a pretty good life. Good job as a scientist, pretty girlfriend . . . . once the accident happened and he became the Hulk, then his life went to crap and he spent a long time mastering himself to overcome his rage.
> 
> ...




 She's a lawyer not a homeless teen, her life wasn't that bad even compared to Bruce, both members of the professional class. But it's fine as long as your enjoying yourselves, I hope you continue enjoying it.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 27, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> And plenty of women agree with me on this.



It's odd but all of the women that I know have said that's their favorite bit when she basically mansplains to him what it's like to be a woman.

TBH, your reasoning sounds like someone telling me after I've told them my issues "Everyone's got problems"

EDIT: Bruce has come to terms with his losses, even the most recent being Tony, acknowledge by the look of sadness and missing he expresses when talking about the bar. There's really no need for Jen to bring it all up again.


----------



## Staffan (Aug 27, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> No I didn't miss it, it's just annoyances like that don't compare to loved ones dying horribly, or being hunted by the military, or all the carnage of innocent folks he's seen, or being forced to be a Gladitator, having your body hijacked by a walking disaster for years, having his are maimed by Thanos's glove, and so much more. Idiots cat calling you and getting your period doesn't compare to that. I'm not a fan of cat calling, periods sound like they suck, but comparing it to a walking tragedy like the Hulk is just narrassistic (and hypocritical given how she talks about Captain America).



But notably, when Bruce was exposed to those aggressions, he would usually hulk out. Pre-Hulk Bruce did not have much experience controlling his rage, because he rarely felt any. And once he turned green, it took him a good long while to master it and integrate his personalities.

Jen's a woman who has been exposed to aggression all her life and learned to deal with it *before* her encounter with gamma. So she had an enormous head start on Bruce.


----------



## MGibster (Aug 27, 2022)

Wait, this is the same Bruce that grew up with an abusive father.  Right?  This is the Bruce that had no experience with rage prior to the gamma radiation exposure?


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 27, 2022)

Staffan said:


> But notably, when Bruce was exposed to those aggressions, he would usually hulk out. Pre-Hulk Bruce did not have much experience controlling his rage, because he rarely felt any. And once he turned green, it took him a good long while to master it and integrate his personalities.



yeah I’m not certain that Bruce not experiencing rage is an accurate characterisation. I’ll need to rewatch Norton to check but if I recall before the gamma accident he was a an obsessive, loner who supressed his emotions rather than not having them - and that was linked to childhood trauma and in particular his violent father (or is that Ang Lees version?). 
It might be going beyond the MCU but it seems to me that its the suppression of his rage and lack of coping mechanisms that lead to the Banner/Hulk personality split - an issue that doesnt affect Jen-Hulk


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 27, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> yeah I’m not certain that Bruce not experiencing rage is an accurate characterisation. I’ll need to rewatch Norton to check but if I recall before the gamma accident he was a an obsessive, loner who supressed his emotions rather than not having them - and that was linked to childhood trauma and in particular his violent father (or is that Ang Lees version?).
> It might be going beyond the MCU but it seems to me that its the suppression of his rage and lack of coping mechanisms that lead to the Banner/Hulk personality split - an issue that doesnt affect Jen-Hulk






MGibster said:


> Wait, this is the same Bruce that grew up with an abusive father.  Right?  This is the Bruce that had no experience with rage prior to the gamma radiation exposure?




Yeah, the Daddy issues movie  Ang lee hulk movie isn't canon to the MCU,so we have no real idea about his upbringing or life prior to the Norton Hulk movie other than the quick montage at the start.


----------



## Dire Bare (Aug 27, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Wait, this is the same Bruce that grew up with an abusive father.  Right?  This is the Bruce that had no experience with rage prior to the gamma radiation exposure?



Good point . . . kinda . . .

Ang Lee's 2003 "The Hulk" starring Eric Bana is the one you are referencing, and it isn't considered part of the MCU canon. The next Hulk movie, 2008's "The Incredible Hulk" staring Edward Norton was a reboot, and is the first canon MCU Hulk appearance (retroactively, as the MCU started with "Iron Man" in the same year, 2008).


----------



## pukunui (Aug 27, 2022)

Enjoyed episode 2 with all its little Easter eggs and things.

I like Jen’s dad.


----------



## Aeson (Aug 28, 2022)

Jen's dad will always be Cousin Larry to me.

If you can't get enough Tatiana Maslany, she has a fiction podcast called Power Trip. After getting a new kidney off the black market she develops the power to command people. It's kinda funny with some good voice talents.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 30, 2022)

So, this is cool to know Marvel Studios Has Hired an Official MCU Timeline Keeper (Exclusive)


----------



## Stalker0 (Aug 30, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> Oh my goodness, you really missed the point of that scene, didn't you.
> 
> Bruce Banner, BEFORE he became the Hulk, had a pretty good life. Good job as a scientist, pretty girlfriend . . . . once the accident happened and he became the Hulk, then his life went to crap and he spent a long time mastering himself to overcome his rage.
> 
> ...



The biggest issue to me with that scene was, with the whole concept of "mansplaining" that is often brought up as an issue women go through; Jennifer effectively blows off the one person who actually has real experience, telling him what she needs to do because somehow she knows better even though she has ZERO experience with a radioactive gamma form living inside her. She commits the very act that men are often accused of doing.

The simple truth is, Jennifer doesn't have a clue what is going to happen to her. And frankly, she should be UTTERLY TERRIFIED. The one person on earth who has had the hulk inside them, was hunted for years, forced to live on the fringes of society, and has killed THOUSANDS of people. (make no mistake, when the Hulk rampaged in Age of Ultron, it was a massacre).

Now that doesn't mean she will have the same experience, but she treats it like a game, not the utterly serious thing that Bruce is trying to convey to her. Sure things go great on an island, she seems to have control. What happens when she is genuinely in fear of her life? Or she has a really nasty nightmare? Or hell just experiences a jump scare? She has NO IDEA how she will act with her new hulk self going forward, and seems to not understand that even one slip, just one slight loss of control....means someone dies. That should be a massive concern, but its played more for laughs than anything. While Bruce also doesn't know if her experience will be the same as his, at least he is approaching it from a position of caution....he respects the power, and so would rather be overly cautious and wrong than take it light hearted and now has to deal with Jennifer after she's killed someone or destroyed a building.

And that issue extends beyond Jennifer's character, its how the MCU has gradually changed its handling of the hulk. This is the guy that "put a bullet in his brain, and the other guy spat it out". Now he's this jovial almost comedic character. It could be argued that Bruce has earned that comedic play with his long road to control. He has tamed the monster, and now its more of a puppy. But Jennifer hasn't done that yet, she hasn't earned that lighthearted treatment of this grave power and responsibility. And that's why I think the scene just feels so wrong in many ways.


----------



## Eric V (Aug 30, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> That should be a massive concern, but its played more for laughs than anything.



Standard MCU approach, no?


----------



## Stalker0 (Aug 30, 2022)

Eric V said:


> Standard MCU approach, no?



It has become that way yes.... it wasn't that way in the first 2 phases, but has steadily shifted that way more and more.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 30, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> It has become that way yes.... it wasn't that way in the first 2 phases, but has steadily shifted that way more and more.



Yeah the MCU has increasingly focussed on the light entertainment formula which means that the more weighty issues are brushed over so as not to bring the whole thing down. It’s a stylistic choice which has worked though it is perhaps wearing thin.
Hulk in particular is a difficult character as he is more sympathetic Monster than Superhero and that story isn’t easy as a C-plot in someone else’s show


----------



## Stalker0 (Aug 30, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> It’s a stylistic choice which has worked though it is perhaps wearing thin.



yeah it feels like the MCU strategy is shifting away from "dramas with some plot" to "more light hearted whimsical adventurers". Aka less attention is paid into continuity and stakes and instead the focus is on comedy and fun interesting moments.

I personally think that's a poor way to go from my personal taste, but they have people making hundreds of thousands of dollars making those decisions, they probably know more about their audience than I do. At the end of the day, we all know the superhero train will derail at some point, as every genre has before them. We will see the end of "billion dollar" superhero movies and a shift into just "many million dollar movies". Its just a question of when. Marvel may feel this direction is the best way to maintain the longevity of their franchise, and perhaps this is the way to maintain the longest trek of movies in the forseeable future.


----------



## Cadence (Aug 30, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> yeah it feels like the MCU strategy is shifting away from "dramas with some plot" to "more light hearted whimsical adventurers". Aka less attention is paid into continuity and stakes and instead the focus is on comedy and fun interesting moments.



Wanda Vision, Spiderman: No Way Home, and Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness didn't feel like the comedy was what they doubled down on in Phase 4.  And several of the Phase 3 ones seemed pretty heavy too.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 30, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Wanda Vision, Spiderman: No Way Home, and Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness didn't feel like the comedy was what they doubled down on in Phase 4.  And several of the Phase 3 ones seemed pretty heavy too.



Really? WandaVision was literally based on sit-com tropes, and MoM brought in the Bruce Campbell cameo as comic relief.

As far as I recall the only MCU movie with any real grit was The Winter Soldier (Maybe Dork World but that was boring)


----------



## Cadence (Aug 30, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Really? WandaVision was literally based on sit-com tropes, and MoM brought in the Bruce Campbell cameo as comic relief.



Until we found out her husband was dead, she was subjugating an entire town to power her fantasies, and she was going to lose her kids. 

And I'd argue sometimes comic relief is there because the darkness needs some relief.


----------



## Stalker0 (Aug 30, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Really? WandaVision was literally based on sit-com tropes, and MoM brought in the Bruce Campbell cameo as comic relief.



I can kind of see the point though. I mean Marvel movies have always had heavy comedy elements even during its "darkest" movies, that has never really changed.

I think the reason that it feels so weird in She Hulk is that we have this really light hearted character pressed right against an older character with a REALLY DARK BACKGROUND....I mean Bruce has been through the s***. And though Bruce is trying to have some fun with his cousin and show her that being a Hulk is not all doom and gloom....he is also trying to be serious about how life changing this is. So the fact that is just being pushed to the side as "sorry cuz, I got this, its allll good" when we have seen how wrong it can go for a hulk....it just feels really jarring.

But perhaps I am being too hasty in saying the entire MCU has shifted tonally. Part of that could just be there are a lot more tv shows now, and they tend to be lighter....which is fine. Eternals is a pretty heavy movie, No Way Home does at least deal with the concept of loss and revenge, Shang Chi does have the notion of a character possibly falling to the dark side by the end, etc.


----------



## Eric V (Aug 30, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Wanda Vision, Spiderman: No Way Home, and Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness didn't feel like the comedy was what they doubled down on in Phase 4.  And several of the Phase 3 ones seemed pretty heavy too.



Ok, so @Tonguez beat me to my first point, but I guess my second point is that all three had writing issues along the lines of "This could all be avoided if one person did one rational thing."  Strange not messing with everyone's memory because of a failed college application, for example.  A certain scenario is desired, and it matters not at all how it is achieved.

That's a taste thing, for sure; if I can forget how stupid the main premise is, _No Way Home_ is one of my fav MCU movies!


----------



## Eric V (Aug 30, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> But perhaps I am being too hasty in saying the entire MCU has shifted tonally. Part of that could just be there are a lot more tv shows now, and they tend to be lighter....which is fine.



I don't think so.  I think _Love and Thunder_ backs up your point quite well.


----------



## Stalker0 (Aug 30, 2022)

Eric V said:


> That's a taste thing, for sure; if I can forget how stupid the main premise is, _No Way Home_ is one of my fav MCU movies!



I'm exactly the same. No Way Home is an awesome movie until the second you actually start thinking about it, and then its just falls apart. But...the ride was actually fun enough I was able to not think about it!

I do think more MCU movies are relying on the "power of stupid". But again Shang chi's plot was a reasonably solid one, so was Eternals, at least by comic book standards.


----------



## pukunui (Aug 31, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> So the fact that is just being pushed to the side as "sorry cuz, I got this, its allll good" when we have seen how wrong it can go for a hulk....it just feels really jarring.



Perhaps as the show continues, we'll see that Jen was wrong to brush all that aside.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Aug 31, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Perhaps as the show continues, we'll see that Jen was wrong to brush all that aside.




More likely some supervillain will prove her right, even with her new powers.


----------



## pukunui (Aug 31, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> More likely some supervillain will prove her right, even with her new powers.



Yes, that could happen too.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Aug 31, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Yes, that could happen too.




Besides, there are enough toxic, impotent, patriarchal men in this world who are afraid of strong, independent women, that she probably needs to say it more than once to get through to them.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 31, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> More likely some supervillain will prove her right, even with her new powers.




Or, we can turn it around, and note something - both traditionally, and in this series, Jennifer Walters does not experience the extreme anger experienced by the Hulk.  She lacks the angry alter-ego.

So, that sequence could be viewed as Bruce (for probably good reason) assuming the worst, and showing how a man should turn around when faced with truth by a woman. 

The issue with it is that Jennifer lumps the anger issue together with the other superheroing problems, and ignores all of them.  She is, at that moment, explicitly in denial that she'll be using her powers at all. 

It will be interesting to see if she ever comes around to understanding that Bruce was partially right, and that she should have listened to his decade and a half of experience, without undermining her as a strong person in her own right.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 31, 2022)




----------



## pukunui (Sep 1, 2022)

Now I want to see the JD for a Kamar-Taj "Target Sales Associate".


----------



## Davies (Sep 1, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Now I want to see the JD for a Kamar-Taj "Target Sales Associate".



I imagine it would be pretty much the same as that of a Sales Associate at a Target anywhere in the world. Admittedly, that's sort of confusing, given that Target only has stores in the United States* here on Earth Prime, but the MCU is different in all sorts of ways.

(*Their stores in Canada all shut down in 2015.)


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 1, 2022)

Davies said:


> I imagine it would be pretty much the same as that of a Sales Associate at a Target anywhere in the world. Admittedly, that's sort of confusing, given that Target only has stores in the United States* here on Earth Prime, but the MCU is different in all sorts of ways.
> 
> (*Their stores in Canada all shut down in 2015.)



Well, Wanda made all of  Kamar-Taj a target.....


----------



## pukunui (Sep 1, 2022)

Davies said:


> I imagine it would be pretty much the same as that of a Sales Associate at a Target anywhere in the world. Admittedly, that's sort of confusing, given that Target only has stores in the United States* here on Earth Prime, but the MCU is different in all sorts of ways.
> 
> (*Their stores in Canada all shut down in 2015.)



I thought it was referring to sales targets. I mean, it does say Kamar-Taj underneath, which is the sorcerer fortress, not the city around it. (Otherwise when Dr Strange was asking for Kamar-Taj, people would’ve been like “You’re there, dude!”)


----------



## Davies (Sep 1, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I thought it was referring to sales targets. I mean, it does say Kamar-Taj underneath, which is the sorcerer fortress, not the city around it. (Otherwise when Dr Strange was asking for Kamar-Taj, people would’ve been like “You’re there, dude!”)



That was something I considered, but when I Google the phrase "target sales associate", this the first hit. Every reference points to stores run by the Target Corporation.


----------



## pukunui (Sep 1, 2022)

Davies said:


> That was something I considered, but when I Google the phrase "target sales associate", this the first hit. Every reference points to stores run by the Target Corporation.



Huh. Weird. Maybe Kamar-Taj has a special Target rep based on-site to get them special deals from the States.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 1, 2022)

i have no idea who Megan the Stallion is

But the episode amused me including the jibe at social media mysoginy, fake news and the elf shapechanger. Emils soulmates wasn’t as amusing though

I liked the Thor joke in particular


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 1, 2022)

Davies said:


> I imagine it would be pretty much the same as that of a Sales Associate at a Target anywhere in the world. Admittedly, that's sort of confusing, given that Target only has stores in the United States* here on Earth Prime, but the MCU is different in all sorts of ways.
> 
> (*Their stores in Canada all shut down in 2015.)




There is also a retail chain in Australia with the Target name and an identical brand. It was determined that the branding was so generic and “obvious’ that both were permitted to continue. 

So maybe Kamar-Taj has its own Target too


----------



## MarkB (Sep 1, 2022)

The B plot reminded me of the Red Dwarf episode in which Rimmer is put on trial for the deaths of the Red Dwarf crew, and Kryten exonerates him by proving that he is too obviously incompetent and insignificant to have ever been entrusted with their lives in the first place - to which he strenuously objects.


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 1, 2022)

The b plot feels like an episode of like judge judy   

Wong pulled another "Wong out"

That naughty word-eating grin Jen gives when describing Dennis 

It also looks like we have an over-arching villain


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 1, 2022)

I wonder how many times Wong snuck Emil out of the prison for those fights? It was more than once because episode one was post-Shang-Chi end-credits scene due the Bruce's arm still being in a sling in that, but then the fight club scene in Shang-Chi is before that, while the one in She-Hulk has to be after that scene. While Marvel and Disney+ are putting it after everything by Ms Marvel in the watch order, this series is obviously taking place over a longer time than most other series or movies, so this is running more parallel to other recent series and movies, rather than after them. I wonder what other crossovers will happen in the remaining six episodes, aside from the Daredevil appearance? And because of the Daredevil appearance we know is coming, any chance the mysterious big bad that gang was working for is Kingpin? Or would another of Daredevil's enemies fit better?

Also, I am cracking up at the negative reactions to the end-credit scene for episode three. All these people wanting everything Marvel to be super serious and can't handle that She-Hulk is a sitcom.   lol


----------



## MarkB (Sep 1, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I wonder how many times Wong snuck Emil out of the prison for those fights? It was more than once because episode one was post-Shang-Chi end-credits scene due the Bruce's arm still being in a sling in that, but then the fight club scene in Shang-Chi is before that, while the one in She-Hulk has to be after that scene. While Marvel and Disney+ are putting it after everything by Ms Marvel in the watch order, this series is obviously taking place over a longer time than most other series or movies, so this is running more parallel to other recent series and movies, rather than after them. I wonder what other crossovers will happen in the remaining six episodes, aside from the Daredevil appearance? And because of the Daredevil appearance we know is coming, any chance the mysterious big bad that gang was working for is Kingpin? Or would another of Daredevil's enemies fit better?
> 
> Also, I am cracking up at the negative reactions to the end-credit scene for episode three. All these people wanting everything Marvel to be super serious and can't handle that She-Hulk is a sitcom.   lol



It didn't have to be more than once. More likely, that footage was taken during the events of Shang-Chi and went viral on the internet, but it wasn't until Emil's upcoming parole and the She-Hulk factor bumped up public awareness that people joined the dots and realised it was The Abomination in that footage.


----------



## DeviousQuail (Sep 2, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Also, I am cracking up at the negative reactions to the end-credit scene for episode three. All these people wanting everything Marvel to be super serious and can't handle that She-Hulk is a sitcom.   lol



You aren't kidding. It's a short post credit scene that is just some dumb fun. Even if you don't like it it is harmless and so easy to ignore. 

The episode as a whole was fine. Jennifer gets a win with Emil's case, douchey DA lawyer is confirmed as such in the court of law, more 4th wall breaks, a potential nemesis, and a lesson in getting ahead of a story instead of ignoring it.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 2, 2022)

MarkB said:


> It didn't have to be more than once. More likely, that footage was taken during the events of Shang-Chi and went viral on the internet, but it wasn't until Emil's upcoming parole and the She-Hulk factor bumped up public awareness that people joined the dots and realised it was The Abomination in that footage.




I would have to go back and watch everything again and listen carefully, but I swear I remember Wong saying something to Abomination in Shang-Chi along the lines of "see you next time", which would mean it was not a one-time thing.

There is also this article linked to Wong and the fight club, though it does not say if he and Emil fought more than once.









						Wong’s Abomination Fight In Shang-Chi Explains An Infinity War Mystery
					

Wong's fight answers an Infinity War question.




					screenrant.com
				




And this one explains why Abomination and Wong were used at all in She-Hulk. Despite the big gap in release dates, the movie and show were being filmed at the same time, in the same location.









						'She-Hulk' finally explains why Wong was fighting Abomination in 'Shang-Chi'
					

Why was Wong (Benedict Wong) fighting Abomination (Tim Roth) in a seemingly throwaway scene in 'Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings?' 'She-Hulk: Attorney at Law' finally revealed the answer.




					ew.com


----------



## Aeson (Sep 2, 2022)

She-Hulk can not twerk. No junk in her trunk. 

We got a blink you miss it action scene. I want more SMASH!


----------



## MGibster (Sep 2, 2022)

I'm enjoying the series quite a bit.  It's fun and pretty much what I wanted out of a She-Hulk series.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 2, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And because of the Daredevil appearance we know is coming, any chance the mysterious big bad that gang was working for is Kingpin? Or would another of Daredevil's enemies fit better?




I am so hoping that they they’re going to bring back Samuel Sterns and that the Wrecking Crew are trying to get a blood sample so Sterns can use it to complete his transformation into the Leader.
The leader might even be able to upgrade both Titania and the Wrecking Crew so they are credible threats to She-Hulk.

Of course having confirmed that Elves are active on MCU earth, the wrecking crew might get a magical upgrade too


----------



## Mad_Jack (Sep 2, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> i have no idea who Megan the Stallion is




 Popular female rapper... Lot of sexual stuff and profanity in her lyrics.


----------



## DeviousQuail (Sep 2, 2022)

Mad_Jack said:


> Popular female rapper... Lot of sexual stuff and profanity in her lyrics.



She's also only been around for the last 4 or 5 years, celebrity-wise. If you aren't following the rap or pop music scenes it would be easy to miss her. I wouldn't be surprised if she eventually hits more widespread celebrity as Gen z gets older and she does more branching out stuff like this.


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 2, 2022)

Wong you can't keep leaving via portal to avoid problems lol


----------



## Mad_Jack (Sep 2, 2022)

Not that I've actually watched any of the Marvel shows or any movie beyond _Endgam_e, but I'm getting the impression that Wong seems to be taking the Captain Kirk approach to being one of the magical guardians of the planet...


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 2, 2022)

Im wondering if Wong as leader of the Kamar-Taj has diplomatic immunity anyway, he”s not a US citizen but does have the Scorcerer Supremes residence in NYC - what’s the legal status of an inter dimensional nexus anyway?


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 2, 2022)

'She-Hulk' team explains how Megan Thee Stallion ended up in series: 'We all lost our minds'
					

"She-Hulk" director Kat Coiro and star Tatiana Maslany talk about working (and twerking) with Megan Thee Stallion.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Stalker0 (Sep 2, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> You aren't kidding. It's a short post credit scene that is just some dumb fun. Even if you don't like it it is harmless and so easy to ignore.



Yeah it’s like the shawarma scene in avengers, just so fun that also shows the heroes as “real people”, perfectly fine.

It was a good episode, now that we are past the awkwardness in episode 1 the show is sailing pretty smoothly. It feels like Hawkeye, just a nice fun adventure


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Sep 2, 2022)

The show sure was impressed with itself for getting Megan Thee Stallion in it. I found it a bit jarring how self-impressed it was. Not being into celebrities, I have nearly no idea who Megan Thee Stallion is (I mean, I've heard the name, but beyond that...) I had to go "I guess that's her, then?"


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> The show sure was impressed with itself for getting Megan Thee Stallion in it. I found it a bit jarring how self-impressed it was. Not being into celebrities, I have nearly no idea who Megan Thee Stallion is (I mean, I've heard the name, but beyond that...) I had to go "I guess that's her, then?"



As an old, pasty white guy I had no idea who she is, but enjoyed the episode just fine. Whether you know who she is or not, the issue is referenced in a way that lets you know what's up.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Sep 2, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> As an old, pasty white guy I had no idea who she is, but enjoyed the episode just fine. Whether you know who she is or not, the issue is referenced in a way that lets you know what's up.



I guess. I mean, I don't mind not knowing who she is, I'm used to that when it comes to celebrities, and I enjoyed the episode just fine, too. 

Maybe it was the general fourth-wall breaking nature of the show, but it felt like every time they named her they nudged me in the ribs saying "Yes! MTS! Aren't you EXCITED!?" (To which I'd have to answer, "No, not particularly. I mean, that's cool for you, I guess?")

It wasn't a big deal, it was just mildly annoying.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 2, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> As an old, pasty white guy I had no idea who she is, but enjoyed the episode just fine. Whether you know who she is or not, the issue is referenced in a way that lets you know what's up.



This. My wife and I had no idea who she was, but we still enjoyed it. Frankly, the realism of the constant media coverage and all that kind of stuff is refreshing, compared to say, Star Wars where somehow no one knows what a Jedi is.


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> This. My wife and I had no idea who she was, but we still enjoyed it. Frankly, the realism of the constant media coverage and all that kind of stuff is refreshing, compared to say, Star Wars where somehow no one knows what a Jedi is.



Being a superhero or even someone with genetic expressions that make you as obvious as one, in this TMZ world we live in, would be a nightmare. When I want to really screw with my modern or SciFi RPG players, I saddle them with a reporter.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 2, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Being a superhero or even someone with genetic expressions that make you as obvious as one, in this TMZ world we live in, would be a nightmare. When I want to really screw with my modern or SciFi RPG players, I saddle them with a reporter.



I can't even imagine how awful their lives would be. Between this and The Boys, we get a flavor of it (two shows that couldn't be more different, clearly).


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I can't even imagine how awful their lives would be. Between this and The Boys, we get a flavor of it (two shows that couldn't be more different, clearly).



"She Hulk: Attorney at Law" - How the world would be if mostly regular people got super powers.
"The Boys" - How the world would be in The Kardashians got super powers.

A-Train's Turbo Rush commercial on "The Boys" wasn't an accident.


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 2, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Being a superhero or even someone with genetic expressions that make you as obvious as one, in this TMZ world we live in, would be a nightmare. When I want to really screw with my modern or SciFi RPG players, I saddle them with a reporter.



I'm a bard, but i'm only with the party so I can write plays about them and then a tell-all book


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 2, 2022)




----------



## pukunui (Sep 2, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> I guess. I mean, I don't mind not knowing who she is, I'm used to that when it comes to celebrities, and I enjoyed the episode just fine, too.
> 
> Maybe it was the general fourth-wall breaking nature of the show, but it felt like every time they named her they nudged me in the ribs saying "Yes! MTS! Aren't you EXCITED!?" (To which I'd have to answer, "No, not particularly. I mean, that's cool for you, I guess?")
> 
> It wasn't a big deal, it was just mildly annoying.



According to that article @trappedslider posted upthread, Tatiana is a huge MTS fan. The producer described her as literally vibrating with excitement at the prospect of getting to work with her. So what you picked up on was undoubtedly Tatiana’s very real excitement showing through her acting.


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 2, 2022)

pukunui said:


> According to that article @trappedslider posted upthread, Tatiana is a huge MTS fan. The producer described her as literally vibrating with excitement at the prospect of getting to work with her. So what you picked up on was undoubtedly Tatiana’s very real excitement showing through her acting.



It's so fun watching celebs fangirl over other celebs lol


----------



## Aeson (Sep 2, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Being a superhero or even someone with genetic expressions that make you as obvious as one, in this TMZ world we live in, would be a nightmare. When I want to really screw with my modern or SciFi RPG players, I saddle them with a reporter.



Tell me it's Peter Doocy* and you find the most horrid and painful ways for him to die. I'll be your bestest friend in the whole wide world forever and ever. 

* I'm sure you have no idea who he is. No one should. It's ok. All you have to do is lie and say yes.


----------



## Aeson (Sep 2, 2022)

trappedslider said:


>




I think I might be adding a couple of new books to my reading list. 


Halp! I'm not a librarian but I'm caught in a librarian trap.


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 3, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Tell me it's Peter Doocy* and you find the most horrid and painful ways for him to die. I'll be your bestest friend in the whole wide world forever and ever.
> 
> * I'm sure you have no idea who he is. No one should. It's ok. All you have to do is lie and say yes.



I would have said "John Roberts" instead, because he used to be a music reporter on a local TV station, when I was a teenager/early 20s


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 3, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Tell me it's Peter Doocy* and you find the most horrid and painful ways for him to die. I'll be your bestest friend in the whole wide world forever and ever.




Except he is nowhere near the worst person working for that news channel.


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 3, 2022)

So far, I think the show is enjoyable for what it is. 

It reminds me of old TV shows from the late 80s and early 90s.

You have a little bit of superhero cheesiness from the old live-action Hulk and Spiderman shows. You have a little bit of Zach Morris (Saved by the Bell) talking to the camera. You have a little bit of a flavor-of-the week (celebrity and/or character from other show) feel like the A-Team.

I see it as the MCU's take on old syndicated TV programs. 

My only negative thus far is that there seems to be very little downside to being She-Hulk. Is there any reason to not stay in She-Hulk form all the time?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 3, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> My only negative thus far is that there seems to be very little downside to being She-Hulk. Is there any reason to not stay in She-Hulk form all the time?




Not sure about the comics, but it looks like she has no choice returning to normal when she is unconscious/asleep, so she can't live it 24/7, unlike Bruce does in his current integrated Smart Hulk form. She never has that alter-ego, so she never has that choice. She is also still in denial and wants to go back to her normal human life, so would not want to be in Hulk form all the time.


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 3, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Not sure about the comics, but it looks like she has no choice returning to normal when she is unconscious/asleep, so she can't live it 24/7, unlike Bruce does in his current integrated Smart Hulk form. She never has that alter-ego, so she never has that choice. She is also still in denial and wants to go back to her normal human life, so would not want to be in Hulk form all the time.




Right.  I get the last part.

But, on a day-to-day basis, there doesn't seem to be a downside. 

Is there a reason to not want to have super strength, be super smart, have a lucrative job offer, be able to drink/party with little repercussions, be considered more attractive, and have celebrity status? 

The show has presented very little reason for why Jennifer's struggle with being a Hulk is an actual problem. Maybe that comes later on after the characters have been established.


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 3, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Right.  I get the last part.
> 
> But, on a day-to-day basis, there doesn't seem to be a downside.
> 
> ...



To me, it feels like "But I just want to be normal"


----------



## Dire Bare (Sep 3, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Right.  I get the last part.
> 
> But, on a day-to-day basis, there doesn't seem to be a downside.
> 
> ...



Jenn's celebrity status as "She-Hulk" isn't what she expected to happen, and isn't what she wanted. She was afraid of being a "hulk", a monster, of being different. Of not being able to pursue her career as a lawyer.

And that is part of what's happening. She gets fired from her job at the DA's office, and is only brought on with her new firm as a "diversity hire". In the real world, when you're hired only because you are a woman, or a person of color . . . you can doubt your own worth, or have others doubt your true worth. That's happening to Jenn at her new firm.

She-Hulk is gaining celebrity status . . . . and that's not always so great, as the story shows us. She has folks stalking and attacking her, she's mobbed by paparazzi making up sensational stories about her. She's loved by some, hated by others . . . and not for who she truly is, but for the celebrity construct of being "She-Hulk" which she has little control over.

From previews we've seen, in later episodes it seems likely that Jenn starts to lean into the more positive aspects of her new celebrity status and even enjoy being She-Hulk . . . but that hasn't happened yet. It's kinda hard to miss, it's the metaphor the show is pushing hard at, equating being super-powered to being a celebrity.

In the real world . . . being famous isn't always great, it's sometimes awful, and most often it's a mixed-bag. Many celebrities have a love/hate relationship with their celebrity status . . . they hate how they are judged and stereotyped, they hate how folks have strong opinions about them (without truly knowing them), they hate the loss of privacy . . . . but the career benefits, the (sometimes) wealth, the access, the adulation of the public . . . . it's truly a mixed-bag of blessings and curses.


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 3, 2022)

Visual of Wong going off to escape responsibility and or commit another crime


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 3, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> Jenn's celebrity status as "She-Hulk" isn't what she expected to happen, and isn't what she wanted. She was afraid of being a "hulk", a monster, of being different. Of not being able to pursue her career as a lawyer.
> 
> And that is part of what's happening. She gets fired from her job at the DA's office, and is only brought on with her new firm as a "diversity hire". In the real world, when you're hired only because you are a woman, or a person of color . . . you can doubt your own worth, or have others doubt your true worth. That's happening to Jenn at her new firm.
> 
> ...




Fair enough, but celebrities also don't get to be nigh invincible when they morph into their celebrity personality.

In comparison, Bruce had to struggle against being a Hulk for various reasons. Likewise, Abomination had a personal struggle and a character arc. 

What's the weakness of being She-Hulk?


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 3, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> To me, it feels like "But I just want to be normal"




Fair enough. 

Is there any sort of physical or mental downside to the transformation?

At a time when a lot of the audience is struggling, I think it's going to be difficult to garner sympathy for being rich, powerful, and famous. 

I enjoy the show. So, I'm not knocking the show. But from both an audience perspective and an in-world superhero perspective, I'm curious what tangible downsides there are to effectively having all of Hulk's powers with seemingly none of the struggles or downsides.


----------



## MarkB (Sep 3, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Is there any sort of physical or mental downside to the transformation?
> 
> ...



I don't think that's the story they're trying to tell.

The "what if suddenly superhero" story is actually one that the MCU's done remarkably little to explore, despite them (very sensibly IMO) having mostly done away with the concept of a "secret identity" right from the start ("I am Iron Man.")

But very few of the movies have ever really touched upon what it's like to have to deal with that on a daily basis. Stark was already a massive public figure with established coping mechanisms, and most of the other Avengers either arrived in present-day America fully formed and/or coped by being isolated in the Avengers compound most of the time, and Peter Parker resorted to extreme measures to keep out of the public eye.

Somebody having to live and work in the world while having a well-known superpowered side is something new and well worth exploring, so I'm glad they're so far focusing upon that, rather than rehashing the same character arc that Bruce Banner went through.


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 3, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Is there any sort of physical or mental downside to the transformation?
> 
> ...



For an introvert, it would be absolute torture.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 3, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> The show sure was impressed with itself for getting Megan Thee Stallion in it. I found it a bit jarring how self-impressed it was. Not being into celebrities, I have nearly no idea who Megan Thee Stallion is (I mean, I've heard the name, but beyond that...) I had to go "I guess that's her, then?"



This threw me, because I had never heard of her. I was left wondering "is this some superhero from the comics?"


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 3, 2022)

You know the feeling of "who is she/no clue who that is" is how non-geeks feel 90% when there's a reference that's aimed at the geeky and watching everyone's reaction n here is making me chuckle


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 4, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> You know the feeling of "who is she/no clue who that is" is how non-geeks feel 90% when there's a reference that's aimed at the geeky and watching everyone's reaction n here is making me chuckle



My wife isn't a geek, and she had never heard of Brenda Dee Horse either.


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 4, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> My wife isn't a geek, and she had never heard of Brenda Dee Horse either.


----------



## Aeson (Sep 4, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> My wife isn't a geek, and she had never heard of Brenda Dee Horse either.



I feel someone should be insulted by this. I'm just not sure if it's Megan Thee Stallion or us.


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 4, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I feel someone should be insulted by this. I'm just not sure if it's Megan Thee Stallion or us.


----------



## bloodtide (Sep 4, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> What's the weakness of being She-Hulk?



Do you mean like in a fight?  Well, a Hulk....or "Gamma Altered Human" still has a lot of human weaknesses.  For example they need air to breathe.  And sound attacks can still effect them.  Most things they have a resistance too, like fire, but fire will still burn them.  They can ignore small, low temp flames...but other then that...  And you still have the whole mental attack angle too.  

But sure for the most part she is invulnerable to "normal stuff".

But her BIG WEAKNESS is that she is public.  So the bad guys know where to find her.  The comics mostly just side step this, but for a more reality based story a bad guy can sure go after Jennifer's friends and family.  Also she has the public problem that she might get attacked at any time and people might get hurt or killed (again the comics mostly ignore this too).

Or did you mean personality wise?  Like she does not want to be a super hero?  Or she has no training?  Or no experience? Or, well, she really does not even think all that combativeness ?  She does not have the massive personality disorder like the Hulk.


----------



## Mad_Jack (Sep 5, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> Or did you mean personality wise?  Like she does not want to be a super hero?  Or she has no training?  Or no experience? Or, well, she really does not even think all that combativeness ?  She does not have the massive personality disorder like the Hulk.




 One thing that's going to get overlooked, and may even get a bit overlooked in the series itself, is that when Jennifer is She-Hulk, she's_* nearly seven feet tall*_, and much larger than regular people. Unless someone is taller or wider than the average person, they don't always realize the amount of complications this can cause...

Most obviously, she's going to need two completely different wardrobes - which, even as a highly-paid lawyer, isn't going to be inexpensive since all her She-Hulk outfits will need to be hand-made.
Then there's the fact that everything she picks up during the day, pens, paper, her phone, etc. are much smaller in relation to the size of her hands, since her fingers are probably literally twice the size they are in her Jennifer form. And she's going to need to be very careful not to accidentally crush everything with her superstrength. (Reference Superman's famous "world of cardboard" speech - it certainly applies to her as well.)
And the show has already covered her issue with appropriately sized furniture when they showed her bed collapsing under her increased weight and size when Bruce woke her up with the airhorn.
 Hell, I'm only average height, but I'm stocky as hell - almost three feet wide at the shoulders and 275 lbs., and I often have a hell of a time trying to maneuver around in a world that's only _half a size_ too small for me - imagine having to duck your head and turn sideways every time you enter an average door...


----------



## bloodtide (Sep 5, 2022)

Mad_Jack said:


> Most obviously, she's going to need two completely different wardrobes - which, even as a highly-paid lawyer, isn't going to be inexpensive since all her She-Hulk outfits will need to be hand-made.
> Then there's the fact that everything she picks up during the day, pens, paper, her phone, etc. are much smaller in relation to the size of her hands, since her fingers are probably literally twice the size they are in her Jennifer form. And she's going to need to be very careful not to accidentally crush everything with her superstrength.



Clothing is not that expensive.  Remember Jennifer Walters already has a wardrobe.  So she only needs to buy a new She Hulk wardrobe.  And so what, she spends $1,000 on clothing....that is not that much to a high payed lawyer.  

And it's not too hard not to Hulk Smash everyday items.  Do muscular people break everything they touch?  Can say Arnold Schwarzenegger or The Rock not pick up a pencil or pen without snapping it in half?  I can hold a piece of paper and not rip it to shreds....but I can rip a piece of paper to shreds.


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 5, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> Do you mean like in a fight?  Well, a Hulk....or "Gamma Altered Human" still has a lot of human weaknesses.  For example they need air to breathe.  And sound attacks can still effect them.  Most things they have a resistance too, like fire, but fire will still burn them.  They can ignore small, low temp flames...but other then that...  And you still have the whole mental attack angle too.
> 
> But sure for the most part she is invulnerable to "normal stuff".
> 
> ...




I mean in comparison to virtually every other Hulk and Hulk-adjacent character...? 

What's The risk-vs-reward for transforming? 

She gets most of the benefits but seemingly none of the drawbacks.


----------



## bloodtide (Sep 5, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> I mean in comparison to virtually every other Hulk and Hulk-adjacent character...?
> 
> What's The risk-vs-reward for transforming?
> 
> She gets most of the benefits but seemingly none of the drawbacks.



Well, just like the Hulk and other characters she has a personality and a mindset.  The Hulk does not have a drawback, so why must She Hulk?


----------



## Mad_Jack (Sep 5, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> Can say Arnold Schwarzenegger or The Rock not pick up a pencil or pen without snapping it in half?




 You mean folks within the regular range of human strength who've had literally their entire lives to adjust to how strong they are? As opposed to, say, an average-sized woman who suddenly woke up one morning in a body she's not used to and suddenly able to bench-press small houses?


----------



## Dire Bare (Sep 5, 2022)

Mad_Jack said:


> One thing that's going to get overlooked, and may even get a bit overlooked in the series itself, is that when Jennifer is She-Hulk, she's_* nearly seven feet tall*_, and much larger than regular people. Unless someone is taller or wider than the average person, they don't always realize the amount of complications this can cause...
> 
> Most obviously, she's going to need two completely different wardrobes - which, even as a highly-paid lawyer, isn't going to be inexpensive since all her She-Hulk outfits will need to be hand-made.
> Then there's the fact that everything she picks up during the day, pens, paper, her phone, etc. are much smaller in relation to the size of her hands, since her fingers are probably literally twice the size they are in her Jennifer form. And she's going to need to be very careful not to accidentally crush everything with her superstrength. (Reference Superman's famous "world of cardboard" speech - it certainly applies to her as well.)
> ...



They have already dealt with this in the show, multiple times. Perhaps not in every detail, but they made a point of it already.


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 5, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> Clothing is not that expensive.  Remember Jennifer Walters already has a wardrobe.  So she only needs to buy a new She Hulk wardrobe.  And so what, she spends $1,000 on clothing....that is not that much to a high payed lawyer.
> 
> And it's not too hard not to Hulk Smash everyday items.  Do muscular people break everything they touch?  Can say Arnold Schwarzenegger or The Rock not pick up a pencil or pen without snapping it in half?  I can hold a piece of paper and not rip it to shreds....but I can rip a piece of paper to shreds.



$1K, for a high payed lawyer, is one suit.


----------



## bloodtide (Sep 5, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> $1K, for a high payed lawyer, is one suit.



I have no idea.  I'm the kind of guy that buys suits at Value City for $39.00.

But....yawn...just say the Tony Stark Foundation For Statuesque Super-Heroines gave her a billion dollar clothing allowance and or Stark Big Girl nanites make all her clothing in .00001 seconds.


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 5, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> Well, just like the Hulk and other characters she has a personality and a mindset.  The Hulk does not have a drawback, so why must She Hulk?




The Hulk does/did have drawbacks.

They're even brought up in episode 1 of She-Hulk.


----------



## Rabulias (Sep 5, 2022)

Mad_Jack said:


> You mean folks within the regular range of human strength who've had literally their entire lives to adjust to how strong they are? As opposed to, say, an average-sized woman who suddenly woke up one morning in a body she's not used to and suddenly able to bench-press small houses?



In my head canon this was covered off-screen in her Hulk orientation camp with Bruce.


----------



## delericho (Sep 5, 2022)

I'm mostly enjoying this show, and especially the first episode. The only issue I have is the CGI of She-Hulk herself, which after that first episode just doesn't look 'right'. Which is something of a weakness.


----------



## Bagpuss (Sep 5, 2022)

delericho said:


> I'm mostly enjoying this show, and especially the first episode. The only issue I have is the CGI of She-Hulk herself, which after that first episode just doesn't look 'right'. Which is something of a weakness.



Agreed, it seemed odd that they sort of set themselves up for her being CGI a lot of the time, with the law firm requiring her to be "in Hulk form" for work. It's like they made a rod for their own back. They didn't need to do that.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> The b plot feels like an episode of like judge judy
> 
> Wong pulled another "Wong out"
> 
> ...



M.O.D.O.K.?


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 5, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> The show sure was impressed with itself for getting Megan Thee Stallion in it. I found it a bit jarring how self-impressed it was. Not being into celebrities, I have nearly no idea who Megan Thee Stallion is (I mean, I've heard the name, but beyond that...) I had to go "I guess that's her, then?"



Well, they did have her announce who she was in the courtroom for those of us who wouldn't otherwise know.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 5, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> The Hulk does not have a drawback, so why must She Hulk?




Being a nearly-mindless rage-beast is kind of a drawback.
Having a large number of people figuring that you are threat to human safety any place you go is a drawback.
Having to withdraw from most human contact to manage the rage beast was kind of a drawback.
Presumably, having the possibility of the rage-beast returning is a drawback.


----------



## bloodtide (Sep 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Being a nearly-mindless rage-beast is kind of a drawback.
> Having a large number of people figuring that you are threat to human safety any place you go is a drawback.
> Having to withdraw from most human contact to manage the rage beast was kind of a drawback.
> Presumably, having the possibility of the rage-beast returning is a drawback.



1-3 do not apply to Professor Hulk.
4 is possible for She Hulk  (happened in the comics)

And She Hulk has the Is a known public celebrity drawback and the inexperience drawback.


----------



## Stalker0 (Sep 5, 2022)

She hulk doesn’t have true weaknesses in terms of any physical problems, but that’s not really a problem for the show she is in.

For example, Rey from Star Wars gets the Mary Sue criticism because she has few real struggles, but is also in a “heroes journey” type story where the struggle and growth of power is a key part of the story.

She Hulk is more a comedy and deals with the instant becoming of a celebrity…in a way the protagonist didn’t want, and the impact that has on her life. So the traditional “hero struggles” aren’t really q part of the story, and so the lack of those qualities doesn’t really affect the story.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 5, 2022)

'She-Hulk' team explains how Megan Thee Stallion ended up in series: 'We all lost our minds'
					

"She-Hulk" director Kat Coiro and star Tatiana Maslany talk about working (and twerking) with Megan Thee Stallion.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 6, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> $1K, for a high payed lawyer, is one suit.




Which is about 2-3 hours of work -assuming she's making about the average. Given that she works for a firm which specializes in a particular type of law (especially in the LA area,) she should be doing pretty well.

She does mention still having student loans. So that may make things tighter.


Stalker0 said:


> She hulk doesn’t have true weaknesses in terms of any physical problems, but that’s not really a problem for the show she is in.
> 
> For example, Rey from Star Wars gets the Mary Sue criticism because she has few real struggles, but is also in a “heroes journey” type story where the struggle and growth of power is a key part of the story.
> 
> She Hulk is more a comedy and deals with the instant becoming of a celebrity…in a way the protagonist didn’t want, and the impact that has on her life. So the traditional “hero struggles” aren’t really q part of the story, and so the lack of those qualities doesn’t really affect the story.




Rey was the villain, so it's difficult to compare her to She-Hulk.

I get that She-Hulk is a different style of show. I would agree that it doesn't necessarily impact her self-contained story. However, as she is (presumably) connected to other stories, it is noticeable that a core part of her character (which is the central basis for the show) functions differently than what the audience has been trained to understand.

I still like the show. At the same time, I think it's easy to forget that she has powers (or struggles with those powers) at all outside of the occasional minor inconvenience. Maybe that's intentional.


----------



## Aeson (Sep 7, 2022)

The actress they use as a reference for the VFX for She-Hulk posted a few BTS photos. I guess that's her twerking with Megan and not Tatiana. 









						First Look at She-Hulk’s 6-Foot-5 On-Set Actress Behind-the-Scenes (Photos)
					

New behind-the-scenes photos show the on-set actress for She-Hulk used as a reference by the VFX team.




					thedirect.com


----------



## Umbran (Sep 7, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> 1-3 do not apply to Professor Hulk.




It applies to the majority of his existence in the MCU, and at the time of this series, he's still working on it.  This entire series happened because needed to wear a Hulk-suppressor, remember.



bloodtide said:


> 4 is possible for She Hulk  (happened in the comics)




Theoretically.  But really, it is a short series, and that development wouldn't be in theme, so I expect it terribly unlikely.


----------



## pukunui (Sep 8, 2022)

Episode 4 was fun ... but I couldn't help but wonder why Wong didn't (couldn't?) just take Donnie Blaze's sling ring away.

"Wongers". LOL.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 8, 2022)

Ep. 4 is my least favourite so far, Maddisynn could have been a much better character rather than just a dumb cliche, there was no reason to use the name Donny Blaze and I think that was abad decision from the writing team plus I found his sidekick/mentor more interesting and funnier character.

 I was also kinda suprised they used a swarm of little demons for the action scene.

overall very meh


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 8, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Episode 4 was fun ... but I couldn't help but wonder why Wong didn't (couldn't?) just take Donnie Blaze's sling ring away.
> 
> "Wongers". LOL.





i love how Wong's whole thing is just because Maddisynn spoiled The Sopranos.


----------



## Aeson (Sep 8, 2022)

They found the dimension my sister came from. . Can Wongers send her back?


----------



## John R Davis (Sep 8, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Ep. 4 is my least favourite so far, Maddisynn could have been a much better character rather than just a dumb cliche, there was no reason to use the name Donny Blaze and I think that was abad decision from the writing team plus I found his sidekick/mentor more interesting and funnier character.
> 
> I was also kinda suprised they used a swarm of little demons for the action scene.
> 
> overall very meh



Yeah. All felt kinda flat to me and the 4th wall stuff wasn't as good as ep3 where it was very well used.


----------



## Aeson (Sep 8, 2022)

I hate that the guy was disappointed to see Jen instead of She-Hulk. I would see it as a two for one deal. 

And she should wait until she's nearly 50 and still single. Dating doesn't improve with age. I'd swipe right in a heartbeat if she came up.


----------



## Rabulias (Sep 8, 2022)

Ned Leeds better watch out. This sets a precedent.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 8, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I hate that the guy was disappointed to see Jen instead of She-Hulk. I would see it as a two for one deal.
> 
> And she should wait until she's nearly 50 and still single. Dating doesn't improve with age. I'd swipe right in a heartbeat if she came up.



Yeah I agree, the writers trying to tell us Jen is a 6 was just dumb 
two for one deal lol


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 8, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah I agree, the writers trying to tell us Jen is a 6 was just dumb
> two for one deal lol



The bozo calling her a 6 just reinforces for us realistic folk that he is, in fact, a bozo


----------



## Stalker0 (Sep 9, 2022)

I feel like a terrible person, but I want some more Maddisynn in the MCU!


----------



## Bagpuss (Sep 9, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I feel like a terrible person, but I want some more Maddisynn in the MCU!




She needs to meet Luis from Ant-Man, and share their versions of events.


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 9, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I feel like a terrible person, but I want some more Maddisynn in the MCU!



The Disney Plus Day announcement you are waiting for


----------



## bloodtide (Sep 11, 2022)

The whole Wong could not do anything to Johnny Blaze did not make sense: why could Wong just not stop him?  The Ancient One would have just whipped his memory or killed him, right?  Guess they just needed a court case for She Hulk at Law....

TV shows like to show us the very attractive stars on "dating apps" and then show us how they can't find dates.  No one in LA found Jennifer attractive?

Otherwise the episode just felt like filler


----------



## MGibster (Sep 11, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> The whole Wong could not do anything to Johnny Blaze did not make sense: why could Wong just not stop him? The Ancient One would have just whipped his memory or killed him, right? Guess they just needed a court case for She Hulk at Law....



She-Hulk is being sued by Titania for trademark infringement.  Think of how absurd that is for a moment.  Now think of the other absurdities you've seen on that show.  Jennifer forgetting for a moment she can turn into She-Hulk when someone's mugging her, being called to the stand to testify that her former coworker is a narcissist, twerking with Megan Thee Stallion, and of course Maddisyn.  _She-Hulk_ is the type of show where we're just supposed to enjoy the ride rather than consider the logic.  It's like watching _Green Acres_.  You don't complain that everyone except Oliver can hear the patriotic musicthat plays whenever he gives an impassioned speech about something or that Lisa can see the credits still playing at the beginning of an episode.


----------



## Blue (Sep 11, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> It is still post-Shang-Chi. Remember in the post credit scene, Bruce is still human and his arm is still injured, but he fixes his arm in episode one. Abomination had probably gone to the fight club multiple times before he was finally seen out of his cell and caught on camera. The official timeline I saw currently shows only Ms Marvel happening after She-Hulk.



Does that mean he has broken parole by turning back into Abomination after Jennifer got him released?


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 11, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> The whole Wong could not do anything to Johnny Blaze did not make sense: why could Wong just not stop him?  The Ancient One would have just whipped his memory or killed him, right?  Guess they just needed a court case for She Hulk at Law....



The first Dr Strange movie established that the Ancient One did evil things (like killing people would be), Wong as Scorcerer Supreme is far more responsible (despite breaking Abomination out of jail). And even if it was played for laughs the actions of Strange doing a memory wipe in Spiderman, has Wong  a bit more relunctant about doing that again - _its very messy_ - thus he goes and uses the court as an new alternative.

of course he should just take the sling ring but that doesnt make a good story


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 11, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> The whole Wong could not do anything to Johnny Blaze did not make sense: why could Wong just not stop him?  The Ancient One would have just whipped his memory or killed him, right?  Guess they just needed a court case for She Hulk at Law....



Yeah.  Wong is the Sorcerer Supreme.  Stopping people who threaten the Earth with magic is his job description.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 11, 2022)

Blue said:


> Does that mean he has broken parole by turning back into Abomination after Jennifer got him released?




The thing is that we don't know how long after that fight was recorded and put on the dark web before it was discovered and shared to the media outlets. Plus, any and all fights for which Wong snuck him out, had to have happened before the parole hearing and board decision, but after Shang-Chi ended, as we have the condition of Bruce's arm as proof. So right now there has not been a parole violation by him for transforming into Abomination.


----------



## Rabulias (Sep 11, 2022)

Donny might be thankful he has stopped using the mystic arts. I mean, Mordo is still out there...


----------



## MarkB (Sep 11, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  Wong is the Sorcerer Supreme.  Stopping people who threaten the Earth with magic is his job description.



Maybe he's thinking that setting a legal precedent will save him from having to get too hands-on every time.


Rabulias said:


> Donny might be thankful he has stopped using the mystic arts. I mean, Mordo is still out there...



Wasn't there a throwaway line in Multiverse of Madness that indicated he'd been dealt with off-screen?


----------



## Rabulias (Sep 11, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Wasn't there a throwaway line in Multiverse of Madness that indicated he'd been dealt with off-screen?



There were rumors that Mordo would be killed by Wanda early in the film, but I don't know how accurate they were. In any event, I don't think the film states Mordo's fate either way.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 11, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Maybe he's thinking that setting a legal precedent will save him from having to get too hands-on every time.



Law is very specific, though.  Precedent set will be for when someone leaves Wong's organization with one of those thingies, has little or no training, and tries to use one in public. Different circumstances with a different object, etc. would need a new trial. It would also take close to two years to get to a civil trial like that.  Wong needs to do it himself.

Hell, if he gets Kamar Taj into the legal system as "The" organization for magic, the federal government would likely break it up for being a monopoly.  He needs competition! 

Plus there's the worrisome fact that She-Hulk and Wong coerced Blaze to agree to their terms under threat of great bodily harm or death.  They committed felonies.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 11, 2022)

I've decided it's a comedy, so I'm reducing my need for logic, some.


----------



## Staffan (Sep 11, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> TV shows like to show us the very attractive stars on "dating apps" and then show us how they can't find dates.  No one in LA found Jennifer attractive?



I think there's a level of Hollywood Homely at play here. Basically, people who aren't conventionally attractive generally don't get roles in Hollywood, at least not in leading parts. This warps the concept of what is considered attractive in tv/movies. So someone like Tatiana Maslany, who is a fairly attractive woman but not a "total babe" gets demoted to a 6 on the Hollywood scale. Well, that and the guy's a bozo.


----------



## billd91 (Sep 11, 2022)

Bagpuss said:


> She needs to meet Luis from Ant-Man, and share their versions of events.



Only if it also includes Korg.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 11, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Some of that was, most of it wasn't, Bruce loved both women, Tony Stark was his friend. All I'm saying is it was very tone def and put her in a very bad light, some compassion would have been nice.



It isn’t tone deaf at all for her to point out that she has been controlling internal rage her whole life, and he didn’t start even trying to do so until he was already a grown man. 


Henadic Theologian said:


> Saw a clip of Jen telling the Hulk that's had to control her anger all her life more then him, ignoring all thay absolute horrifying, painful, rage inducing things that have happened to him, like losing the women he loves, being hunted by the military, and so, so much more just turned my stomach so much I want nothing to do with this show. You folks seem to enjoy it so I'm happy for you, it's not for me.



Very little of that required him to control his inner rage. Much of it happened _after_ he’d spent years having to learn how to do what most women spend their entire lives learning how to do.

It’s not a “whose been through worse stuff” comment, it’s a “yeah I’ve been doing this since I was 10, Bruce.”


----------



## Arnie_Wan_Kenobi (Sep 11, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Only if it also includes Korg.



I would literally watch Korg, Luis, and Madisynn recap the MCU as either MST3K style show OR a faux-news pundit show, happily.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 11, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I've decided it's a comedy, so I'm reducing my need for logic, some.



Same.  I think Wong should have taken care of it himself, but I'm also not upset at all with how it turned out. It was a fun episode.


----------



## Blue (Sep 11, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Saw a clip of Jen telling the Hulk that's had to control her anger all her life more then him, ignoring all thay absolute horrifying, painful, rage inducing things that have happened to him, like losing the women he loves, being hunted by the military, and so, so much more just turned my stomach so much I want nothing to do with this show. You folks seem to enjoy it so I'm happy for you, it's not for me.



I hadn't realized that those things had happened to Bruce regularly for all of his teen and adult life, so that by the time he became The Hulk he already had learned to deal with that anger.

EDIT:  Reading further on, I see some others have addressed this, and you've basically blown off what woman go through to compare to a large trauma.  Can you picture every single day of your life being worried about getting violated if you are out after dark?  At being afraid to take a drink at a party from someone or pick up your drink if you put it down for a moment because you are afraid it's been roofied?  People could go on and on, but it really comes across as the "guy who has no idea what it is like therefore dismissing it as not all that bad".


----------



## Stalker0 (Sep 11, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Now think of the other absurdities you've seen on that show.  Jennifer forgetting for a moment she can turn into She-Hulk when someone's mugging her, being called to the stand to testify that her former coworker is a narcissist, twerking with Megan Thee Stallion, and of course Maddisyn.  _She-Hulk_ is the type of show where we're just supposed to enjoy the ride rather than consider the logic.  It's like watching _Green Acres_.  You don't complain that everyone except Oliver can hear the patriotic musicthat plays whenever he gives an impassioned speech about something or that Lisa can see the credits still playing at the beginning of an episode.



The idea that someone loses their train of thought and forgets a superpower they just recently acquired when mugged....perfectly reasonable.

Twerking with a client...if you think that's absurd you have never have had clients. People do all sorts of fun little stuff like that in client facing jobs.

Now the other two things....those are pretty absurd


----------



## Stalker0 (Sep 11, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> Same.  I think Wong should have taken care of it himself, but I'm also not upset at all with how it turned out. It was a fun episode.



Agreed. Especially since we have already established that Wong has no regard for American law. He reports to a "higher power" afterall.


----------



## Eric V (Sep 12, 2022)

I am just not sure what I am supposed to be getting out of the show; is it laughs?  Is there a plot in here somewhere?  I dunno.

I know I keep tuning in hoping _this _will be when I see Daredevil...and then being sad.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 12, 2022)

Eric V said:


> I am just not sure what I am supposed to be getting out of the show; is it laughs?  Is there a plot in here somewhere?  I dunno.
> 
> I know I keep tuning in hoping _this _will be when I see Daredevil...and then being sad.




Better prepare to keep being sad then, because it will be Daredevil doing sitcom stuff, not the dark, violent stuff some people seem to prefer.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 12, 2022)

Eric V said:


> I am just not sure what I am supposed to be getting out of the show; is it laughs?  Is there a plot in here somewhere?  I dunno.
> 
> I know I keep tuning in hoping _this _will be when I see Daredevil...and then being sad.



Pretty sure it's mostly a sitcom


----------



## Mallus (Sep 12, 2022)

I didn’t realize the MCU needed a character who accessorizes with Big Gulp-sized Cosmopolitans until I did.

Random observation: Wong & Madisynn were sweet in a way Jen & Hot Oncologist were not. What should we read into this?


----------



## MarkB (Sep 12, 2022)

Mallus said:


> Random observation: Wong & Madisynn were sweet in a way Jen & Hot Oncologist were not. What should we read into this?



That no two relationships are exactly equal in sweetness? Anything more seems like over-analysis.


----------



## Eric V (Sep 12, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Pretty sure it's mostly a sitcom



Hmmm. If that's the case, I guess I am just not finding it funny.  I like the character, I just wish more happened.


----------



## Eric V (Sep 12, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Better prepare to keep being sad then, because it will be Daredevil doing sitcom stuff, not the dark, violent stuff some people seem to prefer.



I don't need the dark, violent stuff.  I have read all of DD's comic runs; I know he isn't always dark and gritty.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 12, 2022)

Eric V said:


> Hmmm. If that's the case, I guess I am just not finding it funny.



That's the nature of comedy.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Sep 12, 2022)

Blue said:


> I hadn't realized that those things had happened to Bruce regularly for all of his teen and adult life, so that by the time he became The Hulk he already had learned to deal with that anger.
> 
> EDIT:  Reading further on, I see some others have addressed this, and you've basically blown off what woman go through to compare to a large trauma.  Can you picture every single day of your life being worried about getting violated if you are out after dark?  At being afraid to take a drink at a party from someone or pick up your drink if you put it down for a moment because you are afraid it's been roofied?  People could go on and on, but it really comes across as the "guy who has no idea what it is like therefore dismissing it as not all that bad".




 That isn't a rational fear, stranger rape is rare enough it ends up on the news, most rape is from someone you already know. Men are more likely to be victims of violence then women, more likely to be assaulted y a stranger, more likely to be murdered, more likely to be mugged, pre Hulk Bruce has more to fear at night then his Jen. He's also potentially subject to being drafted by the American Government, Jen isn't.


----------



## Blue (Sep 12, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> That isn't a rational fear, stranger rape is rare enough it ends up on the news, most rape is from someone you already know. Men are more likely to be victims of violence then women, more likely to be assaulted y a stranger, more likely to be murdered, more likely to be mugged, pre Hulk Bruce has more to fear at night then his Jen. He's also potentially subject to being drafted by the American Government, Jen isn't.



If you really believe that men live in more fear then women, then your mind is closed to the facts of the matter.


----------



## billd91 (Sep 12, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> That isn't a rational fear, stranger rape is rare enough it ends up on the news, most rape is from someone you already know. Men are more likely to be victims of violence then women, more likely to be assaulted y a stranger, more likely to be murdered, more likely to be mugged, pre Hulk Bruce has more to fear at night then his Jen. He's also potentially subject to being drafted by the American Government, Jen isn't.



Don't go telling any woman that stranger rape isn't a rational fear or that she doesn't need to be wary of *any* men around her since the vast majority of violence committed against women is perpetrated by men, even if men often do move in circles more likely to lead to victimization by violence (mostly by other men). 

Also, given Banner's age, he's never faced any realistic threat of being drafted in the US. Talk about irrational fear...


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 12, 2022)

Most fear isn't rational anyway. One of my D&D players was screaming last session because a bat flew into his living room.

The emotion is the same, whether it is rational or not.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 12, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> That isn't a rational fear, stranger rape is rare enough it ends up on the news




*Mod Note:*
"Rare" is a vague word that can effectively dismiss issues.  Let us be specific.

In roughly 27% of cases, the woman does not know the assailant. That is still _millions_ of cases.

So, no, it isn't "rare".  Please don't try to dismiss such violence again.


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 12, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> That isn't a rational fear, stranger rape is rare enough it ends up on the news, most rape is from someone you already know. Men are more likely to be victims of violence then women, more likely to be assaulted y a stranger, more likely to be murdered, more likely to be mugged, pre Hulk Bruce has more to fear at night then his Jen. He's also potentially subject to being drafted by the American Government, Jen isn't.



The first thing that you have to realize is that fear isn't rational.

The second thing is... no. Just no.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Sep 12, 2022)

I'm leaving this thread, there is no point to me being this thread.


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 12, 2022)

Blue said:


> I hadn't realized that those things had happened to Bruce regularly for all of his teen and adult life, so that by the time he became The Hulk he already had learned to deal with that anger.
> 
> EDIT:  Reading further on, I see some others have addressed this, and you've basically blown off what woman go through to compare to a large trauma.  Can you picture every single day of your life being worried about getting violated if you are out after dark?  At being afraid to take a drink at a party from someone or pick up your drink if you put it down for a moment because you are afraid it's been roofied?  People could go on and on, but it really comes across as the "guy who has no idea what it is like therefore dismissing it as not all that bad".




Early trauma, fear, and etc aren't limited to one set of genitalia.

While I would agree that there are challenges which tend to face some portions of the population more than others, I would posit that's it's comparably dismissive to say that things like PTSD (from constant war and conflict); being viewed by society as a monster; and so-forth aren't difficult challenges. 

In some ways, the fact that Jen is so easily accepted while Bruce's struggles are swept aside as unimportant highlights the challenges of seeking mental health help as a male. Admitting having challenges or admitting that you need help with mental or emotional trauma tends to be ridiculed or brushed aside as something of a joke.


----------



## Blue (Sep 12, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Early trauma, fear, and etc aren't limited to one set of genitalia.



Never said they were.  I did say that they are more of a constant issue for women.  Please actually address what I wrote instead of setting up a strawman, since I never said men didn't have any early trauma or fear.



Argyle King said:


> While I would agree that there are challenges which tend to face some portions of the population more than others, I would posit that's it's comparably dismissive to say that things like PTSD (from constant war and conflict); being viewed by society as a monster; and so-forth aren't difficult challenges.



Again, please actually read what I wrote.  Did Bruce have the PTSD from war and conflict _before becoming the Hulk_?  We are talking about Jen's experiences pre-Hulk compared to Bruce's experiences pre-Hulk.



Argyle King said:


> In some ways, the fact that Jen is so easily accepted while Bruce's struggles are swept aside as unimportant highlights the challenges of seeking mental health help as a male. Admitting having challenges or admitting that you need help with mental or emotional trauma tends to be ridiculed or brushed aside as something of a joke.



Sure, I'll go along with this.  It's a valuable PSA.  And Bruce had a 15 year year journey back to mental health - a good thing.


----------



## MGibster (Sep 12, 2022)

I don't mind making a commentary on this because it was introduced in the show.  So let Uncle MGibster tell you a little story where my attitude was pretty crummy.  I used to handle parking at work, and one of the biggest bones of contention I had with employees was with assigning them parking spots.  The issue was that we had too many employees and not enough spaces close to the building, so I would have to assign a lot of people to spaces that were about two blocks away from where they work.  I would frequently receive calls from women, particularly those who showed up to work prior to sunrise, asking for a spot closer to the building because they felt unsafe walking by themselves.  Unfortuantely there was little I could do since I couldn't conjure up more parking spaces, but I was sympathetic at least and would assign them closwer spots as they became available.

One day, a male employee contacted me and told me he felt unsafe walking to the building from his parking space in the week hours of the warning.  You know what immediately went through my head?  "Just bring your balls with you and walk, you'll be fine."   While I told him the same thing I told women employees, there was zero empathy in my heart and I thought less of him as a man for voicing his fear.  It wasn't until a few weeks later that I re-examined my attitude and came to the conclusion that it was crummy.  I suppose it was an example of what they call toxic masculinity rearing its ugly head. 

Regardless of statistics, I do think women are encouraged to be fearful of many situations whereas men are actively discouraged (punished) for voicing any fears they might have.  I don't mind Jennifer Walters bringing that up as maybe a reason why she's in control when turning into She-Hulk.  Quite frankly, I can't remember if they ever explained why Jennifer was in control in the comic either.  It's been a while.


----------



## Staffan (Sep 12, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Quite frankly, I can't remember if they ever explained why Jennifer was in control in the comic either.  It's been a while.



In the comics, she gained control over her transformations when Morbius cured her of a blood disease of some sort. Since then, her level of control has fluctuated somewhat, but as far as there is such a thing, her default state has either been one where she is in control or where she's permanently She-Hulk.

In the comics (at least from time to time), She-Hulk has a distinct persona from Jennifer Walters, although the difference is not as big as the Hulk's traditionally is. She-Hulk is less inhibited and more confident. I would not be surprised if there were comics that delved into the psychology of that.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 12, 2022)

Staffan said:


> In the comics, she gained control over her transformations when Morbius cured her of a blood disease of some sort. Since then, her level of control has fluctuated somewhat, but as far as there is such a thing, her default state has either been one where she is in control or where she's permanently She-Hulk.
> 
> In the comics (at least from time to time), She-Hulk has a distinct persona from Jennifer Walters, although the difference is not as big as the Hulk's traditionally is. She-Hulk is less inhibited and more confident. I would not be surprised if there were comics that delved into the psychology of that.



Not so much a distinct personality but an increase in her self confidence which is touched on in the show lightly (comics version was more dramatic since original Jen was a meek and shy girl). She haS gone savage a couple of times due to meddling by aliens but mostly stays in control of her faculties. One of her writers tried to bulk her up once, but fans hated it and she soon reverted to sexy green Amazon form


----------



## Umbran (Sep 12, 2022)

Blue said:


> Never said they were.  I did say that they are more of a constant issue for women.  Please actually address what I wrote instead of setting up a strawman, since I never said men didn't have any early trauma or fear.




So, how about we reframe this:

"Please actually address what I wrote, instead of setting up a stawman...," is accusative, and while it doesn't explicitly say it, likely implies it as an intentional act to many readers.

Next time, maybe try, "I'm not quite sure how you got that.  While yes, I didn't explicitly mention men's problems, that doesn't imply they don't exist, just that I wasn't addressing them in that moment..."

"I think you may have missed my point," is a lot different in flavor than the accusation of setting up strawman


----------



## Irlo (Sep 13, 2022)

I'm pretty jaded and normally go into super-hero, fantasy, and sci-fi shows with low expectations, but I was actually excited for She-Hulk based on the one trailer that I saw. Now I'm three episodes in and I remember why  I don't get my hopes up. The show is okay, and I see what they're going for, but the funny stuff doesn't often exceed mildly amusing. I was hoping for something wittier. I'll watch the rest of the series. I like Maslany's performance well enough and I can squint through the CGI, but the scripts are a let-down.


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 13, 2022)

Blue said:


> Never said they were.  I did say that they are more of a constant issue for women.  Please actually address what I wrote instead of setting up a strawman, since I never said men didn't have any early trauma or fear.
> 
> 
> Again, please actually read what I wrote.  Did Bruce have the PTSD from war and conflict _before becoming the Hulk_?  We are talking about Jen's experiences pre-Hulk compared to Bruce's experiences pre-Hulk.




I'm aware you didn't claim that. I didn't say that you did. 

That's hard to say. The MCU hasn't addressed very much of Bruce's life. It could be that Bruce had a great life; it could be that he had early traumatic experiences to cause a personality disorder (which was later accentuated by gaining powers, much like Moon Knight).

I think it's interesting that the show is highlighting a lot of cultural hypocrisy:

"...being catcalled has caused me to endure years of rage..." but "how about the donk on Captain America..."

"...I'll only date someone if they're hot, successful, and everything I want..." but "I'll also be upset if they don't accept the real me exactly as I am."

It's done for comedic effect (and I do find that the jokes are good,) but, like a lot of comedy, it lands because it has some basis in truth.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 15, 2022)

Ep 5 was quick and seemed largely filler, Shrek reference and stuff


----------



## John R Davis (Sep 15, 2022)

Yeah I didn't feel for Ep5. Maybe not the demographic for such a storyline.
Whose was the helmet in the shop at the end?


----------



## MarkB (Sep 15, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> Whose was the helmet in the shop at the end?



The colours don't match Daredevil, but the shape seems to - it looked to have the little horns.


----------



## John R Davis (Sep 15, 2022)

Ah. Yes. Good spot


----------



## Rabulias (Sep 15, 2022)

MarkB said:


> The colours don't match Daredevil, but the shape seems to - it looked to have the little horns.



It is Daredevil; he will be using a yellow and black costume per the clip we saw earlier. It also evokes the original DD costume in the comics, which was yellow and black.


----------



## DeviousQuail (Sep 15, 2022)

That episode kinda flew by. Anyone binging these down the road might enjoy episodes 4 & 5 more than people who waited a week in-between.


----------



## RangerWickett (Sep 16, 2022)

I adore this show. Every week I giddily await the latest episode.


----------



## pukunui (Sep 16, 2022)

That episode was OK. Disappointed that it didn't have a credits scene. (I had thought every episode was going to have one.)

That said, having recently binged _The Flight Attendant_, I was pleasantly surprised to see Griffin Matthews as the superhero fashion designer.


----------



## Dire Bare (Sep 17, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Ep 5 was quick and seemed largely filler, Shrek reference and stuff



If by "filler" you mean "lots of fun" . . . YEAH!

I really enjoyed Nikki and Pug tracking down Luke, the super outfit designer! It was also fun to see how Jennifer won her lawsuit against Titania, and bonded a bit with her work-rival Mallory. Titania, and her "She-Hulk" product line, was a fun parody of the real-world fashion industry.

She-Hulk is a very different kind of superhero show than what's come before, Marvel is expanding the kinds of stories it can tell . . . . and I am 100% there for this one!


----------



## Dire Bare (Sep 17, 2022)

pukunui said:


> That episode was OK. Disappointed that it didn't have a credits scene. (I had thought every episode was going to have one.)
> 
> That said, having recently binged _The Flight Attendant_, I was pleasantly surprised to see Griffin Matthews as the superhero fashion designer.



THAT'S where I've seen him before! Yeah, he was great in The Flight Attendant, and fun in She-Hulk too!


----------



## pukunui (Sep 17, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> THAT'S where I've seen him before! Yeah, he was great in The Flight Attendant, and fun in She-Hulk too!



I hope we get to see more of his character in the MCU going forward!


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 17, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> If by "filler" you mean "lots of fun" . . . YEAH!
> 
> I really enjoyed Nikki and Pug tracking down Luke, the super outfit designer! It was also fun to see how Jennifer won her lawsuit against Titania, and bonded a bit with her work-rival Mallory. Titania, and her "She-Hulk" product line, was a fun parody of the real-world fashion industry.
> 
> She-Hulk is a very different kind of superhero show than what's come before, Marvel is expanding the kinds of stories it can tell . . . . and I am 100% there for this one!





pukunui said:


> That episode was OK. Disappointed that it didn't have a credits scene.



the Luke Jacobson scene felt to me more like a post-credit scene or maybe a one-shot than part of the She-Hulk plot, so sure it was fun but it just seemed too fluffy, though Luke is apparently a really deepcut into Marvel history.

I did think that Titania’s bootleg cosmetics and booty cremes were amusing and the relationship between Jen and Mallory played well. It was just far too short









						Who Is SHE-HULK's Luke Jacobson? The Tailor's Marvel Comics History, Explained
					

She-Hulk introduces Luke Jacobson, a fashion designer for superheroes who is inspired by a pair of obscure Marvel Comics characters.




					nerdist.com


----------



## Stalker0 (Sep 17, 2022)

Fine little episode. My only issue is that Titania is coming across as another Madisynn, except Madisynn was WAY better!


----------



## pukunui (Sep 17, 2022)

Are we supposed to know who Titania is? All I know is she smashed through the courtroom wall in episode 1 and that she has super strength. 

I feel like she’s meant to be an in-universe celebrity of some sort, but I’d never heard of her before this show.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 17, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Are we supposed to know who Titania is? All I know is she smashed through the courtroom wall in episode 1 and that she has super strength.
> 
> I feel like she’s meant to be an in-universe celebrity of some sort, but I’d never heard of her before this show.



Yeah thats one of the weird things theyve done with her - mixing the super strength and ‘social media’ celebrity aspects without any logical connect between those two aspects.
Titania is a supervillain who has a long standing feud with She-Hulk, and is considered a major She-Hulk nemesis (despite always losing to the superior Green Amazon) so She-hulk comic fans will recognisd the name if not the Jameela version.
In comics the first Titania was a wrestler (so the super strength made sense), the second one was given powers by Dr Doom. Whether either of these origins will factor in to the show is anyones guess


----------



## MarkB (Sep 17, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Are we supposed to know who Titania is? All I know is she smashed through the courtroom wall in episode 1 and that she has super strength.
> 
> I feel like she’s meant to be an in-universe celebrity of some sort, but I’d never heard of her before this show.



It seemed pretty straightforward that she's just a parody of Youtube influencers and self-promoting 'celebrities' in general. I didn't feel like I was missing anything when it came to understanding the character or where she was coming from.


----------



## pukunui (Sep 17, 2022)

MarkB said:


> It seemed pretty straightforward that she's just a parody of Youtube influencers and self-promoting 'celebrities' in general. I didn't feel like I was missing anything when it came to understanding the character or where she was coming from.



Good for you. I want to know how she got her super strength, for one.


----------



## Aeson (Sep 17, 2022)

Am I the only one that thinks Madisynn should be dropped in a pocket dimension with no mirrors, alcohol, or cell service, and forgotten about?


----------



## Eric V (Sep 17, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Am I the only one that thinks Madisynn should be dropped in a pocket dimension with no mirrors, alcohol, or cell service, and forgotten about?



Nope.


----------



## Crimson Longinus (Sep 17, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Am I the only one that thinks Madisynn should be dropped in a pocket dimension with no mirrors, alcohol, or cell service, and forgotten about?



Yes. Yes you are.


----------



## Aeson (Sep 17, 2022)

Crimson Longinus said:


> Yes. Yes you are.



I weep for humanity.


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 17, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Am I the only one that thinks Madisynn should be dropped in a pocket dimension with no mirrors, alcohol, or cell service, and forgotten about?



You want super villains? 'Cause that's how you get super villains.


----------



## Aeson (Sep 17, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> You want super villains? 'Cause that's how you get super villains.



Yes, cuz this series is criminally lacking in super villains.


----------



## Rabulias (Sep 17, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I weep for humanity.



Do I want to see her in a show? Oh yes.

Would I want to be seated next to her on a plane or live next door to her? Absolutely not.


----------



## Staffan (Sep 18, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Are we supposed to know who Titania is? All I know is she smashed through the courtroom wall in episode 1 and that she has super strength.
> 
> I feel like she’s meant to be an in-universe celebrity of some sort, but I’d never heard of her before this show.



Comics Titania originated in Secret Wars, a 12-issue limited series where a nigh-omnipotent being from another universe had various heroes (Avenger, Fantastic Four, X-Men, and Spider-Man) and villains fight one another on Battleworld, a planet the Beyonder made from parts of other worlds (including apparently a Denver suburb). It is notable for setting up a few things in continuity back in the day: most notably Spider-Man's black costume which eventually turned out to be a symbiote which then lead to the creation of Venom, but also the Thing taking a sabbatical from the FF and She-Hulk replacing him, Magneto first being identified as "heroic" (as the Beyonder placed him with the heroes rather than villains), the introduction of a new Spider-Woman, and Doctor Doom using local super-science to empower two regular women as Titania and Volcana.

Comics Titania is basically a mirror image of She-Hulk: originally a rather timid lady who gained super-strength and toughness (not to mention height and the Most Common Super-Power). So of course they become rivals. Comics Titania is also a long-time partner of The Absorbing Man, who showed up in Agents of SHIELD (which makes his MCU version have dubious canonicity).


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 18, 2022)

Crimson Longinus said:


> Yes. Yes you are.



No they aren’t. I feel the same. She’s just the female version of dudebro, and I can’t stand dudebros


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 20, 2022)

That last episode cements the idea it is more of a sitcom than a super show. And I'm good with that. Not every super show has to be the same. If anything, it could be a regular sitcom with a full season.


----------



## MGibster (Sep 20, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Am I the only one that thinks Madisynn should be dropped in a pocket dimension with no mirrors, alcohol, or cell service, and forgotten about?



Probably not, but I thought she was great.  I do think she's one of those characters that's best in small doses.  I wouldn't want to see a lot of Madisynn becaus I think she'd wear out her welcome quickly.  But I thought she was one of the best parts of the episode she appeared in.


----------



## pukunui (Sep 20, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> That last episode cements the idea it is more of a sitcom than a super show. And I'm good with that. Not every super show has to be the same. If anything, it could be a regular sitcom with a full season.



I think also that Kevin Feige seems more willing to embrace the MCU’s comic format origins than he was previously, and I think that may be what’s rubbing some people the wrong way with both this show and the most recent Thor movie. Both are more enjoyable if you just think of them as live action comic books. The same can’t really be said of much of the earlier MCU offerings.


----------



## Crimson Longinus (Sep 20, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I think also that Kevin Feige seems more willing to embrace the MCU’s comic format origins than he was previously, and I think that may be what’s rubbing some people the wrong way with both this show and the most recent Thor movie. Both are more enjoyable if you just think of them as live action comic books. The same can’t really be said of much of the earlier MCU offerings.



I don't think that is quite true. She-Hulk comics often featured comedy, but Thor comics less so. Comedy in She-Hulk doesn't bother me at all, but not just because it is consistent with the comic version. It is obviously a honest sitcom. Besides, the characters still come across as more real than in Love and Thunder. In L&T they're combining bizarre caricature versions of the characters with supposedly heavy storylines of 



Spoiler



a godkiller traumatised by death of a child and a character dealing with terminal cancer.


You can combine comedy and tragedy, but not like this. She-Hulk is tonally coherent and thus works for me.


----------



## Rabulias (Sep 20, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I think also that Kevin Feige seems more willing to embrace the MCU’s comic format origins than he was previously, and I think that may be what’s rubbing some people the wrong way with both this show and the most recent Thor movie. Both are more enjoyable if you just think of them as live action comic books. The same can’t really be said of much of the earlier MCU offerings.



Humor is completely fitting for some of comic runs that featured She-Hulk, but most of the Thor titles I read way back were serious most of the time. Sprinkling a little humor in here and there is fine (for example, see the issues where Loki turns Thor into a frog).

_Thor: Love and Thunder _turns the humor up to 11, at the expense of Thor, and the story, IMO.


----------



## pukunui (Sep 20, 2022)

I wasn’t trying to suggest that Love and Thunder was more of a Thor comic book movie than the previous Thor movies. Just that it is a movie that embraces its comic book _format _roots more than previous entries have. To me, it plays like a live action comic book. I haven’t read any Thor comics, so I can’t speak to its “faithfulness” in that regard.


----------



## MarkB (Sep 20, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I wasn’t trying to suggest that Love and Thunder was more of a Thor comic book movie than the previous Thor movies. Just that it is a movie that embraces its comic book _format _roots more than previous entries have. To me, it plays like a live action comic book. I haven’t read any Thor comics, so I can’t speak to its “faithfulness” in that regard.



It didn't seem much that way to me. If there was a Thor move that was comic-book-y, it was Ragnarok, with its vibrantly contrasting colour palette on Sakarr, hair-and-costume makeover for Thor, and iconic spiky-costumed knife-slinging villain tearing up Asgard. And it worked wonderfully, in all the ways Love and Thunder didn't.


----------



## pukunui (Sep 20, 2022)

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree — or take it to the L&T thread so we don’t derail this one.


----------



## Ogre Mage (Sep 21, 2022)

I am enjoying _She-Hulk _and watch it every week.  Some thought about Episode 5:

--I liked how the episode forced Jennifer Walters to take ownership of her She-Hulk identity.  Seeing the conflicting emotions on her face over her date that was very attracted to She-Hulk but had no interest in Jennifer was an interesting way to highlight the difficulties of having an alter ego.

--Titania was selling sham beauty products.  I wondered if this was a subtle troll of Gwyneth Paltrow and goop.  I snickered when Jen said "she's selling literal snake oil."

--Is the fashion designer Nikki hired supposed to be the MCU's Edna Mode?

--The helmet reveal at the end of the episode was a clear sign Daredevil will be appearing soon.  It will be fascinating to see She-Hulk interact with the other major character in the Marvel Universe who is also a superhero-lawyer.  They are very similar but also very different.


----------



## Cadence (Sep 21, 2022)

Staffan said:


> Comics Titania originated in Secret Wars, a 12-issue limited series where a nigh-omnipotent being from another universe had various heroes (Avenger, Fantastic Four, X-Men, and Spider-Man) and villains fight one another on Battleworld, a planet the Beyonder made from parts of other worlds (including apparently a Denver suburb). It is notable for setting up a few things in continuity back in the day: most notably Spider-Man's black costume which eventually turned out to be a symbiote which then lead to the creation of Venom, but also the Thing taking a sabbatical from the FF and She-Hulk replacing him, Magneto first being identified as "heroic" (as the Beyonder placed him with the heroes rather than villains), the introduction of a new Spider-Woman, and Doctor Doom using local super-science to empower two regular women as Titania and Volcana.
> 
> Comics Titania is basically a mirror image of She-Hulk: originally a rather timid lady who gained super-strength and toughness (not to mention height and the Most Common Super-Power). So of course they become rivals. Comics Titania is also a long-time partner of The Absorbing Man, who showed up in Agents of SHIELD (which makes his MCU version have dubious canonicity).



And Volcana ended up dating the (possibly) most powerful being in the universe (besides the Beyonder) and something happened between Wasp and Magneto that I really don't want to think about (either what happened or how much the art was really not what the Distinguished Competition had going on in their mega-crossover).


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 21, 2022)

Ogre Mage said:


> --Is the fashion designer Nikki hired supposed to be the MCU's Edna Mode?



I was waiting for "NO CAPES!"


----------



## Ogre Mage (Sep 22, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I was waiting for "NO CAPES!"



 Hee hee.  I think She-Hulk would find a cape impractical and pretentious.  She would agree with Edna's take.


----------



## Mad_Jack (Sep 22, 2022)

Ogre Mage said:


> Hee hee.  I think She-Hulk would find a cape impractical and pretentious.  She would agree with Edna's take.




 She doesn't even wear _pants_.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 22, 2022)

Mad_Jack said:


> She doesn't even wear _pants_.



Mmm and looks so good not doing it


----------



## pukunui (Sep 22, 2022)

OK so now I can see that they are slowly building up Titania as She-Hulk's nemesis, but who is it that wants a sample of her blood, and for what nefarious purpose do they want it?

If Josh turns out to be faking his interest in her because he's working for whoever wants her blood, I'm going to be a bit disappointed because that's getting to be a bit of a tired trope at this point.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 22, 2022)

No post-credit scene again - its seems they're gone

I enjoyed the wedding comedy, even if some of the stuff is a bit forced (like the shirt ironing scene)

Mr Immortal storyline was a bit iffy
I agree re Josh, it would be good if he's legitimately interested in Jen and not just another bad guy.

We get a lab so I'm still thinking Doctor Samuel Sterns is involved with seeking the blood sample (Sterns was taken to a SHIELD facility for further research)


----------



## pukunui (Sep 22, 2022)

Something is like to know: have these “minor” super-powered people like Titania and Mr Immortal always been around, or are they all starting to appear because of the opening of the multiverse?


----------



## John R Davis (Sep 22, 2022)

I'm getting old as I really didn't get the last two episodes, having enjoyed the first four.

Mr Immortal is such a massive ability. Number 1 super power for anybody!! they should be after his blood not hers.

I do hope Josh doesn't turn out be a baddie.


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 22, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Something is like to know: have these “minor” super-powered people like Titania and Mr Immortal always been around, or are they all starting to appear because of the opening of the multiverse?



I expect that they've always been around but, like "B" and "C" list celebrities, you don't hear about them unless they're more local to you or part of your niche interests. After all, who has ever heard of that Daredevil guy?


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 22, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> Mr Immortal is such a massive ability. Number 1 super power for anybody!! they should be after his blood not hers..




in Comics Mr Immortal is a founder of the Great Lakes Avengers, the protectors of Wisconsin, who are a bit of a Joke team, created by John Byrne (who was the writer responsible for the Sensational She-Hulk too).
The divorce thing is a TV creation and I can understand why the Marvel bosses allowed his use as a disposable character, even if his power is significant -in comics he’s presented as manic-depressive, and rages upon ressurection, but he is destined to be one of the few survivors at the end of the multiverse.

one interesting easter egg though is that Mr Immortal thought he was a mutant (ala X-Men) and the Great Lakes Avengers (GLA) even changed their name to GLX-Men after the real Avengers told them they didnt have the rights to use the Avengers name. Deadpool also acted as the Avengers liaison with the GLA


----------



## Mad_Jack (Sep 22, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> in Comics Mr Immortal is a founder of the Great Lakes Avengers, the protectors of Wisconsin, who are a bit of a Joke team, created by John Byrne (who was the writer responsible for the Sensational She-Hulk too).
> The divorce thing is a TV creation and I can understand why the Marvel bosses allowed his use as a disposable character, even if his power is significant -in comics he’s presented as manic-depressive, and rages upon ressurection, but he is destined to be one of the few survivors at the end of the multiverse.
> 
> one interesting easter egg though is that Mr Immortal thought he was a mutant (ala X-Men) and the Great Lakes Avengers (GLA) even changed their name to GLX-Men after the real Avengers told them they didnt have the rights to use the Avengers name. Deadpool also acted as the Avengers liaison with the GLA




 Maybe I'm misremembering, but wasn't Mr. Immortal sort of a joke character even within the team? I seem to remember that the GLA was around for a fair while before Mr. Immortal's power ever got used, and that actually became sort of a running thing in the books... But then they turned it around so that he was dying all the time.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 22, 2022)

Mad_Jack said:


> Maybe I'm misremembering, but wasn't Mr. Immortal sort of a joke character even within the team? I seem to remember that the GLA was around for a fair while before Mr. Immortal's power ever got used, and that actually became sort of a running thing in the books... But then they turned it around so that he was dying all the time.



Yeah, his power is that he dies and then resurrects (retconned as a massive healing factor) and he has a deathurge so he is always throwing himself into high risk situations where he invariably dies in horrible ways - which makes him depressed


----------



## Davies (Sep 22, 2022)

Mad_Jack said:


> Maybe I'm misremembering, but wasn't Mr. Immortal sort of a joke character even within the team? I seem to remember that the GLA was around for a fair while before Mr. Immortal's power ever got used, and that actually became sort of a running thing in the books... But then they turned it around so that he was dying all the time.



He gets killed and revives in his first appearance, but it wasn't treated as a joke (rather as something a bit horrifying.)


----------



## Davies (Sep 22, 2022)

pukunui said:


> OK so now I can see that they are slowly building up Titania as She-Hulk's nemesis, but who is it that wants a sample of her blood, and for what nefarious purpose do they want it?



Intelligencia? High probability that it's MODOK or the Leader.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 22, 2022)

I am glad this is a comedy, because putting Mr Immortal in a torture porn movie/series would be absolutely horrifying, having a victim that never permanently dies and is not super-powered in any other way to use for escaping?


----------



## Mad_Jack (Sep 22, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am glad this is a comedy, because putting Mr Immortal in a torture porn movie/series would be absolutely horrifying, having a victim that never permanently dies and is not super-powered in any other way to use for escaping?




 DC did something sort of like that in a scene in the comics - there's a similar "reset button" guy in prison who ends up with a different power every time he dies - so when the Joker tries to escape, he ends up having to kill the guy *54 times* before he ends up with the right power he needs to enact the next part of his plan...


----------



## Staffan (Sep 22, 2022)

Davies said:


> Intelligencia? High probability that it's MODOK or the Leader.



I wonder if that means we'll be getting a red Hulk and/or She-Hulk. Perhaps Titania looking for a way to get payback?


----------



## RealAlHazred (Sep 22, 2022)

I just can't believe how "woke" this show is! And how it clings tenaciously to all of the meaningless pop culture references and memes, both from the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general and coming from this show in particular!

I love it! Can't wait for the next episode!


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 22, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> No post-credit scene again - its seems they're gone



The "stinger" was in the end credits artwork.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 23, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> No post-credit scene again - its seems they're gone.




I think the extra bit at the end IS the post-credits scene, just shown before the credits instead.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 23, 2022)

Staffan said:


> I wonder if that means we'll be getting a red Hulk and/or She-Hulk. Perhaps Titania looking for a way to get payback?



I dont think we'll get that soon since they still need to introduce the Leader and/or MODOK first

I can see them giving Titania a power-up for a final fight but making her Red Titania would be a step too far I think


Davies said:


> Intelligencia? High probability that it's MODOK or the Leader.



good call on Intelligencia, I had forgotten about MODOKs involvement with the Leader in that
mainly since the MCU has already hinted at MODOK maybe 3 times already (including Agents of SHIELD) with no final committment


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 23, 2022)

No to MODOK in this series, as it has already been said his debut will be in Ant-man 3.


----------



## Mort (Sep 23, 2022)

If you believe internet rumors, then:



Spoiler



It's not MODOK but Leader, the hyper intelligent head of a spy ring that steals scientific secrets - and also has ties to the Hulk


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 23, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> No to MODOK in this series, as it has already been said his debut will be in Ant-man 3.



yeah and The Leader will return in Captain America: New World Order
still either could be given a cameo to set them up for their movie appearance, but the Leader is a bit more likely in a 'Hulk' property


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 26, 2022)

Well following confirmation that The Leader will be the villain in the next Captain America movie, rumours are now circulating that She-Hulk will also appear in that movie and that many of the She-Hulk “easter eggs” are set-up for the next phase of the MCU - including The Leader, Intelligencia and the return of The Hulk. 
Hulk family seems to be a big part of the next meta-plot (rumour is the Universal rights revert back to Marvel in 2024)

Its also all but guaranteed that Jen will be an Avenger (as the show often hints)


----------



## pukunui (Sep 26, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Well following confirmation that The Leader will be the villain in the next Captain America movie, rumours are now circulating that She-Hulk will also appear in that movie and that many of the She-Hulk “easter eggs” are set-up for the next phase of the MCU - including The Leader, Intelligencia and the return of The Hulk.



So far most (if not all) of the Disney+ shows have been a combination of origin story and set up for later shows / movies.


----------



## MGibster (Sep 26, 2022)

pukunui said:


> So far most (if not all) of the Disney+ shows have been a combination of origin story and set up for later shows / movies.



Which I think is kind of cool because that's how comic books worked.  Just so long as they don't make it necessary to have watched every show in order to enjoy and follow the movie.  Though, honestly, a lot of people might have been confused with Wanda's behavior in Dr. Strange if they weren't familiar with her show.


----------



## pukunui (Sep 26, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Which I think is kind of cool because that's how comic books worked.  Just so long as they don't make it necessary to have watched every show in order to enjoy and follow the movie.  Though, honestly, a lot of people might have been confused with Wanda's behavior in Dr. Strange if they weren't familiar with her show.



Yeah, they even reference Westview in the movie. I think it’s going to get harder as time goes on to follow the events of the MCU if you only watch the movies.


----------



## Crimson Longinus (Sep 26, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Which I think is kind of cool because that's how comic books worked.  Just so long as they don't make it necessary to have watched every show in order to enjoy and follow the movie.  Though, honestly, a lot of people might have been confused with Wanda's behavior in Dr. Strange if they weren't familiar with her show.



And people who were familiar with the show were even more confused and probably quite annoyed!


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 27, 2022)

Crimson Longinus said:


> And people who were familiar with the show were even more confused and probably quite annoyed!




Nope loved it, logical consequence and resolution of Wandas trauma and declining sanity. Great to emphasize that not everyone gets a happy ending


----------



## Cadence (Sep 27, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Nope loved it, logical consequence and resolution of Wandas trauma and declining sanity. Great to emphasize that not everyone gets a happy ending



And infinitely better than some parts of the comics I think..



Spoiler: Master Pandemonium does what with who!?!?!


----------



## Dire Bare (Sep 27, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Which I think is kind of cool because that's how comic books worked.  Just so long as they don't make it necessary to have watched every show in order to enjoy and follow the movie.  Though, honestly, a lot of people might have been confused with Wanda's behavior in Dr. Strange if they weren't familiar with her show.



I was a bit confused with Wanda in Multiverse of Madness because I DID watch WandaVision! At the end of WandaVision, while you do see Wanda paging through the Darkhold listening to whispers of her children's multiversal counterparts . . . . she had also pulled back from her attacks on the citizens of Westview and come back to sanity.

I guess I wasn't confused, just disappointed that Wanda's redemptive arc in WandaVision was discarded so quickly. Still enjoyed the movie though.


----------



## Stalker0 (Sep 27, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> I guess I wasn't confused, just disappointed that Wanda's redemptive arc in WandaVision was discarded so quickly. Still enjoyed the movie though.



Quoting a friend of mine, "no one gives any credit to the thief who puts the money back after their caught".

Which is ultimately what happens in Wandavision. There wasn't really any redemptive arc for Wanda, she did bad things for understandable (but still wrong) reasons, she got caught, she stopped doing those bad things....and then left. I mean, its good that she stopped doing those bad things, and yes it was an emotional sacrifice to her...but she never did anything "redemptive", she never did any penance or tried to help those she had wronged in any way. She just stopped doing villainous things.... well unless you include imprisoning Agatha in that character motiff that apparently is so torturous that the people in them literally asked to die rather than continue to be in them.....yeah lets not forget about that one.


----------



## Older Beholder (Sep 28, 2022)

I’m really enjoying the series. I will say though that the courtroom subplots are usually the weakest element of the show. The ideas themselves are great, but given how much high quality legal drama/comedy TV there has been over the years, it does seem like the writers are a little out of their element during some of these scenes.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 28, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> I was a bit confused with Wanda in Multiverse of Madness because I DID watch WandaVision! At the end of WandaVision, while you do see Wanda paging through the Darkhold listening to whispers of her children's multiversal counterparts . . . . she had also pulled back from her attacks on the citizens of Westview and come back to sanity.




Note the order of events - she pulled back from abusing the folks of Westview, _THEN_ you see her with the Darkhold.

The Darkhold is not just a morally neutral collection of information.  It is a corrupting influence.  And, stepping back from mass torture doesn't mean Wanda was in a good, solid, psychological state to expose herself to such, especially when she has a lot of power, but very little understanding of magic.


----------



## MGibster (Sep 28, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> I guess I wasn't confused, just disappointed that Wanda's redemptive arc in WandaVision was discarded so quickly. Still enjoyed the movie though.



What redemption arc?  She spent who knows how long torturing an entire town and in the end she just walked away without really paying any price.


----------



## Cadence (Sep 28, 2022)

MGibster said:


> What redemption arc?  She spent who knows how long torturing an entire town and in the end she just walked away without really paying any price.




Not in the sense of justice for the townsfolk, but losing her husband again and her children felt like a pretty heavy price to me.


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 28, 2022)

Besides, how do you punish someone with the effective power of a god?


----------



## MGibster (Sep 28, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Not in the sense of justice for the townsfolk, but losing her husband again and her children felt like a pretty heavy price to me.



They weren't real.  And far from being just a fantasy, they were created in conjunction with enslaving the townsfolk.  She lost nothing because she had nothing.  It was all fake.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 28, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Not in the sense of justice for the townsfolk, but losing her husband again and her children felt like a pretty heavy price to me.




Redemption isn't to be found in the loss of ill-gotten gains.



Ryujin said:


> Besides, how do you punish someone with the effective power of a god?




With another godlike power, obviously.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 28, 2022)

MGibster said:


> They weren't real.  And far from being just a fantasy, they were created in conjunction with enslaving the townsfolk.  She lost nothing because she had nothing.  It was all fake.




Oh, psychologically, she did lose something.  But the pain of that loss is not a step in a redemption arc - it is merely more trauma.


----------



## billd91 (Sep 28, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Oh, psychologically, she did lose something.  But the pain of that loss is not a step in a redemption arc - it is merely more trauma.



She definitely lost something her power created. If that's willingly taking on trauma to stop inflicting it on the townspeople, how is that not part of a redemption arc?


----------



## Cadence (Sep 28, 2022)

MGibster said:


> They weren't real.  And far from being just a fantasy, they were created in conjunction with enslaving the townsfolk.  She lost nothing because she had nothing.  It was all fake.




Is it said that they were all just running on Wanda's subconscious and not sentient on their own? (Similarly for the Vision).  

Had me off checking on the Holodeck.  Are Moriarty and the Doctor not real?

-----

Even if they were just her subconscious, are having hope lost, aspirations thwarted. and dreams crushed "losing nothing"?


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 28, 2022)

Umbran said:


> With another godlike power, obviously.



Of which there seemed to be a definite deficiency, at that time.


----------



## Cadence (Sep 28, 2022)

billd91 said:


> She definitely lost something her power created. If that's willingly taking on trauma to stop inflicting it on the townspeople, how is that not part of a redemption arc?




Switching genres, if a criminal gives up their ill-gotten gains, is that a first step towards redemption, or just setting themselves up for possible redemptive actions?  (Does making amends take more - something to make up for all of the trauma the crimes inflicted on the victims and for the benefit the criminal got from the stolen goods?).  

Back in the MCU, is Bucky's meeting with the people he hurt making amends, or just trying to deal with his personal trauma?


----------



## billd91 (Sep 28, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Switching genres, if a criminal gives up their ill-gotten gains, is that a first step towards redemption, or just setting themselves up for possible redemptive actions?  (Does making amends take more - something to make up for all of the trauma the crimes inflicted on the victims and for the benefit the criminal got from the stolen goods?).



Is setting up for a redemption arc really separate from being on one? The arc starts somewhere. 


Cadence said:


> Back in the MCU, is Bucky's meeting with the people he hurt making amends, or just trying to deal with his personal trauma?



Why isn't it both?


----------



## MarkB (Sep 28, 2022)

What does all this have to do with She-Hulk, again?


----------



## Cadence (Sep 28, 2022)

MarkB said:


> What does all this have to do with She-Hulk, again?




She-Hulk show is setting She-Hulk to be in some movies.  Having folks need to watch the shows to understand the movies is a change, consider Wanda in last Dr. Strange.   Spiral to where we are now.


----------



## MGibster (Sep 28, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Besides, how do you punish someone with the effective power of a god?



Beats me.  But she didn't exactly redeem herself either.


Cadence said:


> Even if they were just her subconscious, are having hope lost, aspirations thwarted. and dreams crushed "losing nothing"?



Close enough for government work.  She essentially had her foot on the necks of thousands (?) of people for weeks or months.  Giving up a fantasy and finally taking her foot off their necks isn't an act of redemption.  If someone spent a few weeks torturing your children, would you consider that person redeemed simply because they stopped torturing them one day?


----------



## Cadence (Sep 28, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Close enough for government work.  She essentially had her foot on the necks of thousands (?) of people for weeks or months.  Giving up a fantasy and finally taking her foot off their necks isn't an act of redemption.  If someone spent a few weeks torturing your children, would you consider that person redeemed simply because they stopped torturing them one day?




I was arguing against the idea that she hadn't lost anything/given anything up.  In another post to someone else I was questioning whether that counted as even starting a redemption arc.  Did someone actually say they thought she was redeemed? (If so, I missed that post).


----------



## MGibster (Sep 28, 2022)

Cadence said:


> I was arguing against the idea that she hadn't lost anything/given anything up.  In another post to someone else I was questioning whether that counted as even starting a redemption arc.  Did someone actually say they thought she was redeemed? (If so, I missed that post).



She lost a fantasy.  To me, that's pretty much losing nothing.


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 28, 2022)

MGibster said:


> She lost a fantasy.  To me, that's pretty much losing nothing.



A solid, 3 dimensional, interactive fantasy that in every tangible way was otherwise real? If it feels like loss, it is loss.


----------



## Stalker0 (Sep 28, 2022)

To clarify my position, Wanda absolutely did lose something, her family was real to her. So it was a personal sacrifice.

It’s just not redemption. Redemption requires penance…and that’s where it fails for Wanda. She stops the violence, that’s a good start, but she never does anything for the people she wronged. 

Let’s contrast that with Bucky. He feels temendous quilt, he is going to individuals he’s wronged and trying some reconciliation, he’s continued fighting is in part to make up for the wrongs he’s caused. That’s how you start a redemption arc.


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 28, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> To clarify my position, Wanda absolutely did lose something, her family was real to her. So it was a personal sacrifice.
> 
> It’s just not redemption. Redemption requires penance…and that’s where it fails for Wanda. She stops the violence, that’s a good start, but she never does anything for the people she wronged.
> 
> Let’s contrast that with Bucky. He feels temendous quilt, he is going to individuals he’s wronged and trying some reconciliation, he’s continued fighting is in part to make up for the wrongs he’s caused. That’s how you start a redemption arc.



Wanda is more of a return to sanity, than redemption, but that gets blown right out the window when the evil book twists her mind again.


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 28, 2022)

Cadence said:


> She-Hulk show is setting She-Hulk to be in some movies.  Having folks need to watch the shows to understand the movies is a change, consider Wanda in last Dr. Strange.   Spiral to where we are now.



That's stretching it imo, the next three pages will then be a rehash of how Wanda was treated or mistreated by MoM instead of talking about the actual topic.


----------



## Dire Bare (Sep 28, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> That's stretching it imo, the next three pages will then be a rehash of how Wanda was treated or mistreated by MoM instead of talking about the actual topic.



Threads wander, it is the way of things. I have spoken.


----------



## Cadence (Sep 28, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> That's stretching it imo, the next three pages will then be a rehash of how Wanda was treated or mistreated by MoM instead of talking about the actual topic.



I was literally just reporting on which posts in this thread led us to this point


----------



## trappedslider (Sep 28, 2022)

To get back to the actual topic 
	

	







						She-Hulk Sneak Peek: Blonsky's Back, With a Pair of Marvel-ous Friends
					

This week on Disney+’s She-Hulk: Attorney at Law, Emil Blonsky is back in the picture — and he’s not alone. When last we saw Marvel vet Tim Roth’s reformed (?) villain, he — with help from attorney Jen Walters (Tatiana Maslany) and testimony from Wong (Benedict Wong) — had successfully...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 28, 2022)

Good thing Wanda is dead or she might try to hire She-hulk to represent her in court. As an aside to that, the Sokovia Accords are supposed to come up in at least one episode. With only 3 episodes left, and Daredevil supposed to be in either 2 or all 3 of them, I wonder if they have to team up in court over the Accords, as aren't they both defense attorneys?


----------



## beancounter (Sep 28, 2022)

I'm not a fan of the current trend of knocking the old/original character down as a way to elevate the new/replacement character.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 29, 2022)

beancounter said:


> I'm not a fan of the current trend of knocking the old/original character down as a way to elevate the new/replacement character.




Who is being knocked down?


----------



## Older Beholder (Sep 29, 2022)

Really enjoyed todays episode, they need to work Tim Roth into more series or just give him his own show.


----------



## Tonguez (Sep 29, 2022)

Miss Piggy Cameo! (_Is there anything Disney doesnt own?_)

fun episode where things are starting to progress forward, I enjoyed it including the mechanical bull joke.

 Interesting set of Marvel dump characters with some interesting implications since one is a Mutant, and one is an ancient Nosferatu (although thats played as a joke in the show)

pity about Josh

and I’d really enjoy it if Emil Blonsky got his own spin off series, maybe a series of shorts- reality talk show style where Emil gets villains to talk out their issues…


----------



## Ryujin (Sep 29, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> ...and one is an ancient Nosferatu (although thats played as a joke in the show)...



I believe that Disney also owns "What We Do in the Shadows" as well


----------



## Cadence (Sep 30, 2022)

Just watched it as a family. Other half is wondering what happened to the soul mates?


----------



## Staffan (Sep 30, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Miss Piggy Cameo! (_Is there anything Disney doesnt own?_)



There's a long tradition of muppets showing up in Marvel properties. Here's a page from X-Factor #73 (1991), for example:


----------



## pukunui (Oct 6, 2022)

OK so lots to unpack with tonight’s episode!

I’m sure people more familiar with the comics will have more to say. I enjoyed it right up until the end, and then … I dunno. The whole toxic Anonymous-meets-QAnon Intelligencia thing is just a little too on the nose maybe and just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth … and the fact that a) real women have to deal with this sort of naughty word in real life and b) the writers decided to make _this_ the triggering moment to show us Jen almost losing control just feels like we’re once again falling back on the same old “powerful woman can’t handle her power and goes mad” sexist trope.

On a more positive note, Daredevil was a real treat, and Jen said it out loud, so I guess we’ll be getting a red Hulk as some sort of bad guy version? I’m going to take a leap of faith and guess that this red Hulk will end up joining Val’s Anti-Avengers team along with Yelena and John Walker and such. Am I right?


Also, I want to see more of Luka Jacobson in the MCU because Griffin Matthews is just the best.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 6, 2022)

That was a shock twist!
But yeah the Intelligencia thing was a bit much without some real payoff (of Savage She-Hulk). And why did everyone let the guys in gasmask escape and is it Damage Control waiting outside with the guns?

Stupid Fun Lilypad fight and a nice Matt-Jen hook up

But OMG the Sokovia Accords have been repealed!


----------



## Rabulias (Oct 6, 2022)

pukunui said:


> On a more positive note, Daredevil was a real treat, and Jen said it out loud, so I guess we’ll be getting a red Hulk as some sort of bad guy version? I’m going to take a leap of faith and guess that this red Hulk will end up joining Val’s Anti-Avengers team along with Yelena and John Walker and such. Am I right?



There is no Red Hulk in the _Thunderbolts_ promo illustration Disney showed at D23. Using Red Hulk in a fourth wall line indicates to me they have no current plans for an MCU Red Hulk.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 6, 2022)

pukunui said:


> b) the writers decided to make _this_ the triggering moment to show us Jen almost losing control just feels like we’re once again falling back on the same old “powerful woman can’t handle her power and goes mad” sexist trope.



Ultimately the "can't handle their power and go mad" is the trope of the Hulk...I mean its one of the key principles of the whole Hulk gig.

I took it less as a woman thing specifically and more of what Bruce had cautioned against in the very first episode, that when you get triggered your power will go out of control as a hulk, and total control is necessary. Its just that for Jen she had none of the triggers that Bruce had, but this kind of "revelation" of very personal stuff, was a key one for her apparently.

And ultimately this didn't feel like a person going "mad", it was a literal moment of rage. Its clear right afterwards based on Jen's face that she has calmed down and she has very quickly realized what she has done, its just....well now the damage has been done.

I liked the Daredevil cameo, and it felt right to me. Whereas in Matt's own show he was dealing with more personal stakes, a kingpin he hated, watching his own people and streets get swallowed up by crime. In this case its him just doing a favor for a buddy, its literally just a light fun night out for him, so to see him in a less serious way just kicking back made sense to me. You could argue he would be more concerned with Jen knowing his secret identify, but Matt also has a strong intuition about people, and probably figures she would never betray that trust.

the fact that the Sokovia accords were repealed is very interesting, not entirely unexpected. It would be interesting to see what triggered that (maybe during the snap), as getting many countries to sign an agreement is no easy feat, and so repealing it would likely be a very large task.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 7, 2022)

pukunui said:


> The whole toxic Anonymous-meets-QAnon Intelligencia thing is just a little too on the nose maybe and just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth …




I think it being direct is the strong bit.  

The makers of this show _knew_ that there'd be a big toxic pushback to a strong female character, and they were entirely correct.  This entire episode was letting them know that they are actually the villains of the piece, which I find to be marvelous.



pukunui said:


> and the fact that a) real women have to deal with this sort of naughty word in real life and b) the writers decided to make _this_ the triggering moment to show us Jen almost losing control just feels like we’re once again falling back on the same old “powerful woman can’t handle her power and goes mad” sexist trope.




There is no "go mad" here.  That was not Hulk fury - we can tell because _she stopped_, where an enraged Banner/Hulk would not.  That was a woman who was rightfully pissed off at how she has been treated, and just happens to have the power to do something about it.  

I mean, in that episode, Daredevil beat the living crud out of a dozen and more goons - hammers them all into unconsciousness.  Not a peep about that violence.  We are totally okay with it.  When a woman is publicly humiliated, and she gets violent against a couple walls and a _single_ person who afterwards can still get up and run away, she's "gone mad"?




pukunui said:


> On a more positive note, Daredevil was a real treat, and Jen said it out loud, so I guess we’ll be getting a red Hulk as some sort of bad guy version?




In the comics...Red Hulk is General "Thunderbolt" Ross, who falls to the old adage that when one fights monsters, one must be careful not to become one.  There is no "good guy" Red Hulk - he's traditionally at best an anti-hero.

While it is possible they'll have a Red Hulk when they get around to the Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers, I think the line was more a nod to, "We know you're theorizing and expecting a Red Hulk here, and we are not going to do what you expect."


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> While it is possible they'll have a Red Hulk when they get around to the Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers, I think the line was more a nod to, "We know you're theorizing and expecting a Red Hulk here, and we are not going to do what you expect."




Yep, they did not even get her blood yet with the new, sturdier needle. I expect that in the final episode and then whoever they use it on to show up in a different series or a movie.

As for Red Hulk/Ross, there are a lot of rumors floating around about Ross being recast and Harrison Ford's name has come up to play him in the Thunderbolts movie.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 7, 2022)

More _City of Heroes_ flashbacks in this episode. "How many warehouses full of goons have you cleared?" Probably hundreds!


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 7, 2022)

I love how Matt's first line is "I'm here", both in the show and to the fans waiting for his appearance. The facepalm at "she-hulk smash".


----------



## Older Beholder (Oct 7, 2022)

This show is trying to do a few different things all at once, not everything gets hit out of the park but the rom-com stuff from this episode was great. I need to finally get around to watching Daredevil.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I mean, in that episode, Daredevil beat the living crud out of a dozen and more goons - hammers them all into unconsciousness.  Not a peep about that violence.  We are totally okay with it.  When a woman is publicly humiliated, and she gets violent against a couple walls and a _single_ person who afterwards can still get up and run away, she's "gone mad"?



That's less picking on women and more just comic book logic. You can cream the bad guys, but rough up one innocent and you get the public reaction. I mean hell the property damage she causes is just played for laughs, because she did it in pursuit of the bad guy, so all is forgiven. And to be fair, in this example Jen destroys property in a VERY PUBLIC gathering, she's snarling, roaring....I mean the optics aren't great, its understandable would people would get freaked out.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> The makers of this show _knew_ that there'd be a big toxic pushback to a strong female character, and they were entirely correct.  This entire episode was letting them know that they are actually the villains of the piece, which I find to be marvelous.



I do think that is an excuse at times, a way to push away legitimate criticism of a project.

In She-Hulks case, I think the first few episodes do have problems tonally (I already talked about them early in this thread no need to rehash). The show to me hits its stride and becomes a lot better, but I think it would be disingenuous to say all the criticism is due to a "strong female character".

I consider the same thing for Captain Marvel for example. The movie is not that great to me, and there is a lot of legitimate and fair criticism about the movie. But a lot of people started retorting, "you only hate the movie because the lead is a woman". And again, that's disingenuous, the movie has some real problems with it, etc.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> In the comics...Red Hulk is General "Thunderbolt" Ross, who falls to the old adage that when one fights monsters, one must be careful not to become one.  There is no "good guy" Red Hulk - he's traditionally at best an anti-hero.
> 
> While it is possible they'll have a Red Hulk when they get around to the Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers, I think the line was more a nod to, "We know you're theorizing and expecting a Red Hulk here, and we are not going to do what you expect."



There is one good guy Red Hulk portrayal. It's in the cartoon "Hulk and the Agents of S.M.A.S.H."


----------



## pukunui (Oct 7, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yep, they did not even get her blood yet with the new, sturdier needle. I expect that in the final episode and then whoever they use it on to show up in a different series or a movie.



Huh. Josh’s text message to “Hulk King” suggested to me that he’d gotten a blood sample while she was sleeping.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 7, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> That's less picking on women and more just comic book logic. You can cream the bad guys, but rough up one innocent and you get the public reaction.




So a guy, standing in the back of the room with other guys, all _wearing obscuring masks_ at a formal event, filming the results of a group's smear campaign... doesn't sound particularly innocent.  



Stalker0 said:


> And to be fair, in this example Jen destroys property in a VERY PUBLIC gathering, she's snarling, roaring....I mean the optics aren't great, its understandable would people would get freaked out.




I am not referring to how the public in the fictional world view it.  I'm talking to one of my fellow viewers in the real world who apparently saw it as her "going mad".

Since they brought Daredevil into this, we can do a comparison - there's a point in that series when Matt finally has had enough.  He goes to Fisk's apartment, and beats Fisk to a bloody pulp, in front of Fisk's wife.  It is one of the most brutal fights in a series known for its brutal fights.

And for that, Daredevil is badass and edgy.  

Jennifer here leaves the guy able to run away, and she's "gone mad". 

The different interpretations of their emotional states, and whether they are appropriate, in the context of a world in which when women get upset they are "too emotional" seems relevant for this series.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> So a guy, standing in the back of the room with other guys, all _wearing obscuring masks_ at a formal event, filming the results of a group's smear campaign... doesn't sound particularly innocent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess for me the daredevil scene in question is daredevil absolutely going mad, it’s the scene he lets it all go and stuffs those catholic values in the can for a moment…so I never really saw a different interpretation there.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 7, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I guess for me the daredevil scene in question is daredevil absolutely going mad, it’s the scene he lets it all go and stuffs those catholic values in the can for a moment…so I never really saw a different interpretation there.




You left off the bit where, overall, we see Daredevil as _badass and edgy_.  Overall, we accept violent expression of male anger.


----------



## billd91 (Oct 7, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I’m sure people more familiar with the comics will have more to say. I enjoyed it right up until the end, and then … I dunno. The whole toxic Anonymous-meets-QAnon Intelligencia thing is just a little too on the nose maybe and just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth … and the fact that a) real women have to deal with this sort of naughty word in real life and b) the writers decided to make _this_ the triggering moment to show us Jen almost losing control just feels like we’re once again falling back on the same old “powerful woman can’t handle her power and goes mad” sexist trope.



Or... and this is more how I see it, this is a woman who is having shots taken at her and, particularly, her sexuality, and rather than being just angered, she can *do* something about it so she lets her anger out. She can be portrayed as doing exactly what a lot of women would like to do but can't. It wouldn't surprise me if Jen raging is, for women, not unlike guys watching Captain America punching Nazis. It's something we'd like to do but are inhibited from doing because of the real-life consequences.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 7, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Huh. Josh’s text message to “Hulk King” suggested to me that he’d gotten a blood sample while she was sleeping.
> 
> View attachment 263452




Yeah, I still think that was weird. They did not show it being done and "show, not tell" is a big part of comics.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 7, 2022)

Great episode. I think the show is hitting it's stride, just in time for the season to end.....


----------



## pukunui (Oct 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I am not referring to how the public in the fictional world view it.  I'm talking to one of my fellow viewers in the real world who apparently saw it as her "going mad".



In the context of the show, particularly the scene setting with Bruce at the beginning, I saw it as Jen _almost_ losing control. Yes, she lets the guy go, and whether she actually lost control or not, that’s what it _looks _like. That’s why the Damage Control guys are there, pointing guns at her. Hell, their quick response suggests they were already there _just in case. _They’ve undoubtedly been waiting for her to go into a Hulk rage like Bruce used to do.

So yeah, we viewers might be able to discern the truth here, but in the fictional world, it _looks _like a case of powerful woman gone mad.

Perhaps I’m just overly sensitive to it because of how I felt about Wanda in MoM.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 7, 2022)

pukunui said:


> That’s why the Damage Control guys are there, pointing guns at her. Hell, their quick response suggests they were already there _just in case. _They’ve undoubtedly been waiting for her to go into a Hulk rage like Bruce used to do.




I think that implies someone _told_ Damage Control there was going to be a problem ahead of time - Intelligensia using Damage Control to do their dirty work for them, likely hoping they will shoot first and ask questions later when someone big and green gets justifiably angry.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I think that implies someone _told_ Damage Control there was going to be a problem ahead of time - Intelligensia using Damage Control to do their dirty work for them, likely hoping they will shoot first and ask questions later when someone big and green gets justifiably angry.



Agreed


----------



## pukunui (Oct 7, 2022)

Yes, that’s possible too.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 8, 2022)

Umbran said:


> You left off the bit where, overall, we see Daredevil as _badass and edgy_.  Overall, we accept violent expression of male anger.



Maybe particularly because he doesn't let go and he doesn't stop himself, at least not until he (and we as audience) has some catharisis.
Jen still hasn't hadn't reach that catharsis moment. She stops herself before she can get there. Or at least the episode stops...


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 8, 2022)

Umbran said:


> You left off the bit where, overall, we see Daredevil as _badass and edgy_.  Overall, we accept violent expression of male anger.



I didnt get badass and edgy from that DD scene, just _shocking and brutal_, the way Kingpin, on his knees, surrendered to leting the beating happen while Vanessa is there watching was hard to watch and made DD less a hero and more a man obsessed - a true devil

I can see the powerful woman gone mad concern with Jen, but have to also accept that this is a hulk story and in the context of the first episode Savage She-Hulk going into a rage is a thing that the normal people of the MCU still need to be wary of. The MCU has looked at the downside of Superheroism (Wanda, John Walker) so had potential to go there with Jen too


----------



## MarkB (Oct 8, 2022)

Basically, it's important to draw a distinction between "hulking out" and just getting pissed off. What Jen did to the monitors was how she'd have reacted whether she had powers or not, except that without them she'd have had to resort to throwing a chair or a mic stand.

The problem is that people who don't like her - like Intelligencia - can spin it differently because of both the superpowers factor and the usual societal double-standards. The irony of real-life people doing exactly what that in-world organisation will be doing will no doubt be lost upon them.


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 8, 2022)

Now I have to wonder how other heroes deal with "the walk of shame"


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 8, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Now I have to wonder how other heroes deal with "the walk of shame"



I would definitely say that the advantage goes ot heroes who have a secret identity


----------



## Umbran (Oct 9, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I didnt get badass and edgy from that DD scene, just _shocking and brutal_,




Okay, let me try it this way - take yourself out of the equation for a minute.  I'm not actually taking about you, personally, because I don't know you from Adam. I'm referring to _general public_ approach to anger in men and in women.

Is the general perception of Daredevil "shocking and brutal" now?  Despite how many scenes of incredibly brutal violence in his shows?


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 9, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I would definitely say that the advantage goes ot heroes who have a secret identity



And those who don't have to walk at all


----------



## fluffybunbunkittens (Oct 9, 2022)

I appreciated how the female lawyer award was... participation trophies for all.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 9, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> I appreciated how the female lawyer award was... participation trophies for all.



It was a very strong statement.


----------



## Rabulias (Oct 9, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> I appreciated how the female lawyer award was... participation trophies for all.



Eh? I don't understand your statement here. It's not like those 6 women are the only female lawyers in southern California, so the trophies are prestigious.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 9, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Eh? I don't understand your statement here. It's not like those 6 women are the only female lawyers in southern California, so the trophies are prestigious.



It's a singular title - "Female Lawyer of the Year". The mere act of not awarding it to an individual devalues it, and calls into question whether it was based upon merit at all.

Add to that the empty-headed beauty-pageant question of "What's it like to be a female lawyer?" and it's pretty much the antithesis of being taken seriously for your profession.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 9, 2022)

MarkB said:


> It's a singular title - "Female Lawyer of the Year". The mere act of not awarding it to an individual devalues it, and calls into question whether it was based upon merit at all.
> 
> Add to that the empty-headed beauty-pageant question of "What's it like to be a female lawyer?" and it's pretty much the antithesis of being taken seriously for your profession.



Which is why Mallory Book's answer is perfection.


----------



## Aeson (Oct 11, 2022)

It's about dang time. That's what I'm talking about, two CGI characters doing CGI damage. It took them long enough. She-Hulk SMASH!.


----------



## MGibster (Oct 13, 2022)

pukunui said:


> The whole toxic Anonymous-meets-QAnon Intelligencia thing is just a little too on the nose maybe and just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth … and the fact that a) real women have to deal with this sort of naughty word in real life and b) the writers decided to make _this_ the triggering moment to show us Jen almost losing control just feels like we’re once again falling back on the same old “powerful woman can’t handle her power and goes mad” sexist trope.



One of the neat things about fiction is that we can use it to explore real life issues.  When we look at the classic X-Men comics, we don't hear a lot of people complaining that it was a little "on the nose" when it came to racial prejudice which was huge social issue when the first issue was published in 1963.  A lot of people really appreciate seeing their struggles portrayed in fiction because it's evidence that someone out there actually acknowledges the problems that exists.  

And quite frankly, this is a good example of the truth that women just can't win.  She-Hulk was pretty restrained when the "New Asgard Construction Crew" tried to mug her but I don't remember anyone giving her any credit for that.  This is the first time in the series we've seen someone hurt She-Hulk, and she had a very human reaction most of us would understand.  If I was in her position, I'd be seeing red.  If I saw someone who was responsible I'd do what I could to knock their teeth out.  And because I'm a dude, a lot of people would think it was perfectly reasonable for me to knock someone's teeth out over this and I wouldn't be criticized for losing control.  

Jen didn't almost lose control, she lost control.  She pulled it together before it escalated too far, but she lost it.  I'm not just going to chalk this up to some lazy trope about powerful women losing control as I don't think that's fair to the  writers.  I think they're making a point.  It's a bit on the nose, true, but we're talking about a show whose main character is a giant green woman with super strength.  It's a comic book movie and subtly is not a requirement.


----------



## pukunui (Oct 13, 2022)

So that’s no for the Leader but yes for Bruce’s son, and yay, Jen got to write her own ending!

But what is Wong doing?


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 13, 2022)

Wow they certainly smashed that finale!
not what I expected but I did like K.E.V.I.N

and Wong came through on his offer…


----------



## MGibster (Oct 14, 2022)

I kind of enjoyed the 4th wall breaking, meeting with the writers, and the head producer, but overall I was a little unsatisfied with the ending.  I would have preferred it if Jen had talked the writers into coming up with something better, and then follow that up by showing us that better ending rather than just magically resolving everything.  But hearing Jen say that Hulks smash things, sometimes even Daredevil, was worth the price of admission.  I'm looking forward to another season.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 14, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I kind of enjoyed the 4th wall breaking, meeting with the writers, and the head producer, but overall I was a little unsatisfied with the ending.  I would have preferred it if Jen had talked the writers into coming up with something better, and then follow that up by showing us that better ending rather than just magically resolving everything.  But hearing Jen say that Hulks smash things, sometimes even Daredevil, was worth the price of admission.  I'm looking forward to another season.



Jen meets Deadpool. Creates an Nth Wall tesseract break, sparking "Secret Wars."


----------



## pukunui (Oct 14, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I kind of enjoyed the 4th wall breaking, meeting with the writers, and the head producer, but overall I was a little unsatisfied with the ending.  I would have preferred it if Jen had talked the writers into coming up with something better, and then follow that up by showing us that better ending rather than just magically resolving everything.  But hearing Jen say that Hulks smash things, sometimes even Daredevil, was worth the price of admission.  I'm looking forward to another season.



Yes, the resolution of the conflict was a bit abrupt, but I really appreciated that, after all that real world sexist naughty word Jen had to put up with throughout the show, she actually got to write her own ending. My 16 year old says she has liked this show of all the Disney+ MCU shows the most, and she really appreciated that aspect of the ending as well.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 14, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Jen meets Deadpool. Creates an Nth Wall tesseract break, sparking "Secret Wars."



Which is eventually resolved when they go back in time to team up with Ferris Bueller.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 14, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Yes, the resolution of the conflict was a bit abrupt, but I really appreciated that, after all that real world sexist naughty word Jen had to put up with throughout the show, she actually got to write her own ending. My 16 year old says she has liked this show of all the Disney+ MCU shows the most, and she really appreciated that aspect of the ending as well.




Interesting to hear the perspective of a young woman.
As a 50 yr old non-American brown man I do wonder if I miss some of the cultural cues embedded in these shows - especially as I dont tend to understand American comedy. 
Im a Marvel fan though and hopefully openminded which is what keeps me invested


----------



## pukunui (Oct 14, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Interesting to hear the perspective of a young woman.
> As a 50 yr old non-American brown man I do wonder if I miss some of the cultural cues embedded in these shows - especially as I dont tend to understand American comedy.
> Im a Marvel fan though and hopefully openminded which is what keeps me invested



Indeed. I should point out that she's a young Kiwi woman with an American father, so she may not pick up on all the American cultural cues herself (although the vast majority of the media she has consumed during her life has been from America, so I could be wrong about that).


----------



## MGibster (Oct 14, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Yes, the resolution of the conflict was a bit abrupt, but I really appreciated that, after all that real world sexist naughty word Jen had to put up with throughout the show, she actually got to write her own ending. My 16 year old says she has liked this show of all the Disney+ MCU shows the most, and she really appreciated that aspect of the ending as well.



And I'll admit that I was a bit disappointed the only good superhero brawl we got was between She-Hulk and Hulk with the She-Hulk versus Daredevil coming it at number two.  This is a comic book show, and She-Hulk does, or at least she did, smash stuff in the comics on occasion.


----------



## pukunui (Oct 14, 2022)

MGibster said:


> And I'll admit that I was a bit disappointed the only good superhero brawl we got was between She-Hulk and Hulk with the She-Hulk versus Daredevil coming it at number two.  This is a comic book show, and She-Hulk does, or at least she did, smash stuff in the comics on occasion.



As Jen said, this season was about her coming to terms with having two identities, and she stated right at the end when talking to that reporter that she'll be acting as both a lawyer and a super-hero moving forward, so I hope that we will get to see her doing more Hulk smashing next season and in any movie appearances.

It would be cool if she also gets to make some appearances in the upcoming Daredevil Reborn show.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 14, 2022)

pukunui said:


> As Jen said, this season was about her coming to terms with having two identities, and she stated right at the end when talking to that reporter that she'll be acting as both a lawyer and a super-hero moving forward, so I hope that we will get to see her doing more Hulk smashing next season and in any movie appearances.
> 
> It would be cool if she also gets to make some appearances in the upcoming Daredevil Reborn show.




I think its more low budget and bad writing - the whole thing with Jen dismissive of an end brawl may be a push against genre but its also dismissive of the fanbase who want those action scenes. I want another season with the same cast but a new writing team and really hope her Avengers appearances are played a bit more “straight” superhero rather than self referential comedy


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 14, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Indeed. I should point out that she's a young Kiwi woman with an American father, so she may not pick up on all the American cultural cues herself (although the vast majority of the media she has consumed during her life has been from America, so I could be wrong about that).




Wasn't that different 30 years ago. 

 At around that age alot of references get missed or we missed what they're trying to say because whatever they're showing doesn't have the same relevance here.

So some jokes fell flat, we missed allegories and The Simpson bullies were nice ones.


----------



## pukunui (Oct 14, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I think its more low budget and bad writing - the whole thing with Jen dismissive of an end brawl may be a push against genre but its also dismissive of the fanbase who want those action scenes. I want another season with the same cast but a new writing team and really hope her Avengers appearances are played a bit more “straight” superhero rather than self referential comedy



I meant that Jen spent most of the season _resisting _doing the whole "Hulk smash" thing because she didn't want to be She Hulk. Now that she's finally accepted that part of her and is prepared to be an actual super-hero, I expect we'll see her doing more smashing in the future.


----------



## Argyle King (Oct 14, 2022)

I enjoyed the show up until episode 9.

I can appreciate breaking the 4th wall. I enjoyed the Deadpool movies, I love Mel Brooks, and I can laugh at Monty Python -but I'm not sure that I understand the intent here. 

It's a bit odd to spend an entire season building plot and story arcs just to handwave, end the season, and seemingly just use Jen's show as a stepping stone to telling Hulk's next story.

I dunno... just weird to me that so much effort would be put into establishing how/why she's her own character with her own story, just to circle back on that and erase that effort. In a way, it felt like they did the work of almost empowering a strong female lead just to say, "eh, nevermind." 

The end result was to make me feel as though I shouldn't have spent time investing in the story.

If the intent was comedy, it fell flat for me. If the intent was to "subvert expectations" (as is often said,) it instead came across as openly admitting to not knowing how to wrap up the season. 

Yeah, I know that stuff like this happens in the comics. I don't particularly like it there either.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 14, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I meant that Jen spent most of the season _resisting _doing the whole "Hulk smash" thing because she didn't want to be She Hulk. Now that she's finally accepted that part of her and is prepared to be an actual super-hero, I expect we'll see her doing more smashing in the future.





Argyle King said:


> I dunno... just weird to me that so much effort would be put into establishing how/why she's her own character with her own story, just to circle back on that and erase that effort. In a way, it felt like they did the work of almost empowering a strong female lead just to say, "eh, nevermind."
> If the intent was comedy, it fell flat for me. If the intent was to "subvert expectations" (as is often said,) it instead came across as openly admitting to not knowing how to wrap up the season.




yeah I think the show had lots of _potential_ to subvert the MCU tropes and tell a fun story that was genre savvy and both told an interesting story about the modern career woman and gave some laughs, but while the cast was good, and some of the ideas were fun, in the end the writers werent skilled enough to achieve that outcome so what was served up was mediocre and at times just stupid.
they need a team that both loves MCU tropes and can write a good legal comedy— and a budget that allows them to actually have She-Hulk do some real fight choreography and smashing, hopefully season 2…


----------



## billd91 (Oct 14, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I think its more low budget and bad writing - the whole thing with Jen dismissive of an end brawl may be a push against genre but its also dismissive of the fanbase who want those action scenes. I want another season with the same cast but a new writing team and really hope her Avengers appearances are played a bit more “straight” superhero rather than self referential comedy



Or, you know, it's embracing the fan base that *does* like the Sensational She-Hulk's alternative takes on things like breaking the fourth wall with viewers and directly interacting with the writers to change the story. Sensational She-Hulk in the early 1990s established her as a character who is not just a "straight" superhero.
If the alternative is and end brawl to cap off the season, give me more of the self-referential comedy. The MCU can sustain the difference in perspective - I'd argue it even needs it to remain fresh.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 14, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> ...the whole thing with Jen dismissive of an end brawl may be a push against genre but its also dismissive of the fanbase who want those action scenes.




There is no one, "the fanbase".  



Tonguez said:


> I want another season with the same cast but a new writing team and really hope her Avengers appearances are played a bit more “straight” superhero rather than self referential comedy




So, give a message about how the rest of things have gotten formulaic, but... then go follow the formula? 



MGibster said:


> This is a comic book show, and She-Hulk does, or at least she did, smash stuff in the comics on occasion.




I think the patriarchal aspects of culture and fandom are a more interesting target than the usual supervillain faces for smashing.


----------



## Mallus (Oct 14, 2022)

I have to admit I laughed out loud when we apparently got dropped back into the Disney+ menu 2/3 of the way through the episode. That was more meta than I was expecting. Even considering the episode started with an intro in the style of the Bixby/Ferrigno Hulk series.

It was all very clever. So clever I can't really tell which bits worked and which didn't, outside of Matt Murdock's sweet, barefoot, still-costumed walk-of-shame. I guess this was their design? The finale recontextualized most of the problems I had with the season, but it still meant the prior episodes littered with sour notes at odds with the general tone.

Solid B for effort. Tatiana Maslany (and the rest of the cast) were delightful.


----------



## AnotherGuy (Oct 14, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> ...in the end the writers weren't skilled enough to achieve that outcome so what was served up was mediocre and at times just stupid.



That is the gist of what is being said by half a dozen or so reviewers I have been following online.
It would be sad if that is the reality of the show, cause I love the actress and I like the concept of She-Hulk even though I'm not familiar with the comic. I'm aware of the 4th-wall breaking which can be great if it is done well. I just haven't gotten round to watching the show yet.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 14, 2022)

AnotherGuy said:


> That is the gist of what is being said by half a dozen or so reviewers I have been following online.
> It would be sad if that is the reality of the show, cause I love the actress and I like the concept of She-Hulk even though I'm not familiar with the comic. I'm aware of the 4th-wall breaking which can be great if it is done well. I just haven't gotten round to watching the show yet.



Try to go into it without the preconceptions that reviewers may have had you form. See if you can just enjoy it for what it is.


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 14, 2022)

Mallus said:


> I have to admit I laughed out loud when we apparently got dropped back into the Disney+ menu 2/3 of the way through the episode. That was more meta than I was expecting. Even considering the episode started with an intro in the style of the Bixby/Ferrigno Hulk series.



I was like "wait..what" it honestly took me a couple of seconds to realize what was going on.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Oct 14, 2022)

It was a mess. Some jokes really hit for me (like Daredevil's walk of shame) and some really fell flat. I enjoyed the commentary on the patriarchy, but I felt the show undermined a lot of it by making Jen so insecure as to cause a lot of her own problems. 

I dunno... it was fine, I guess? I think my biggest problem with it is that it was very close to being good. It had everything it needed, but it didn't quite make it for me.


----------



## Argyle King (Oct 14, 2022)

Umbran said:


> There is no one, "the fanbase".
> 
> 
> 
> So, give a message about how the rest of things have gotten formulaic, but... then go follow the formula?





At this point, "subverting expectations" has almost become a cliche over the past few years. 

A lot of aspects of the final episode are things I would like if done in a better way. I think, in trying to be overly clever, something was lost in the execution of the idea. 

Old-school Hulk into -awesome
Talking to the audience -cool
...even the ending was kinda cool
But the middle meat of the episode wasn't cooked right for me.


----------



## Dire Bare (Oct 14, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> It was a mess. Some jokes really hit for me (like Daredevil's walk of shame) and some really fell flat. I enjoyed the commentary on the patriarchy, but I felt the show undermined a lot of it by making Jen so insecure as to cause a lot of her own problems.
> 
> I dunno... it was fine, I guess? I think my biggest problem with it is that it was very close to being good. It had everything it needed, but it didn't quite make it for me.



Jenn's insecurity is relatable, one of the more realistic aspects of her character. Most of us, IRL, do end up causing or contributing to our own problems.


----------



## Dire Bare (Oct 14, 2022)

Mallus said:


> Even considering the episode started with an intro in the style of the Bixby/Ferrigno Hulk series.



That intro was fun! I'm glad they gave that too us before the season ended.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 14, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> At this point, "subverting expectations" has almost become a cliche over the past few years.
> 
> A lot of aspects of the final episode are things I would like if done in a better way. I think, in trying to be overly clever, something was lost in the execution of the idea.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that's where I landed. I've enjoyed the rest of the series, and I really liked what they were going for here, but they just didn't quite stick the landing. Fourth-wall breaking is funny, but is deliberately writing a bad ending purely in order to self-parody really better than just writing a good ending? I didn't want a big fight scene, but I did want Jen to confront her attackers on her own terms, and we wound up skipping that part and going straight to the end.


----------



## Eric V (Oct 14, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> I think my biggest problem with it is that it was very close to being good. It had everything it needed, but it didn't quite make it for me.



Funny, I have felt that way about all the Marvel shows.  At least this one had Charlie Cox!


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Oct 14, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> Jenn's insecurity is relatable, one of the more realistic aspects of her character. Most of us, IRL, do end up causing or contributing to our own problems.




I didn't do a very good job of explaining what I didn't like about it. It's not that she was insecure in itself, it was something about the way that it was done. I'm not at my most articulate ATM. It has something to do with the confidence that is required to break the fourth wall (which she has WHEN she does that) but the rest of the time... everyone treats her like she's some kind of loser (including herself), which she clearly isn't.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 14, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> I didn't do a very good job of explaining what I didn't like about it. It's not that she was insecure in itself, it was something about the way that it was done. I'm not at my most articulate ATM. It has something to do with the confidence that is required to break the fourth wall (which she has WHEN she does that) but the rest of the time... everyone treats her like she's some kind of loser (including herself), which she clearly isn't.




yeah that was jarring, Jen is a successful lawyer who worked in the DAs office and yet she is presented as an insecure loser who cant handle her personal life and frankly isnt a very good lawyer either.
that was the biggest issue for me, sure the take down of online trolls and males whining about the mcu had potential but the commentary was undermined by the writers missing the mark in various ways.



billd91 said:


> Or, you know, it's embracing the fan base that *does* like the Sensational She-Hulk's alternative takes on things like breaking the fourth wall with viewers and directly interacting with the writers to change the story. Sensational She-Hulk in the early 1990s established her as a character who is not just a "straight" superhero.
> If the alternative is and end brawl to cap off the season, give me more of the self-referential comedy. The MCU can sustain the difference in perspective - I'd argue it even needs it to remain fresh.



just to be clear I thought the fourth wall breaks were the best parts of the show - I enjoyed John Byrne doing them in the comics too. But even those meta moments need to help tell the story


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 15, 2022)

She-Hulk Director Talks Kevin Feige's Role in MCU-Mocking Finale, Wanting [Spoiler] to Be Her 'Baby Yoda'
					

The following contains spoilers from the She-Hulk finale. Marvel’s image-conscious overlords had minimal notes on the She-Hulk: Attorney at Law season finale, which envisioned franchise boss …




					tvline.com


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 16, 2022)

Umbran said:


> There is no one, "the fanbase".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed on all points. They really attacked toxicity well


----------



## Ogre Mage (Oct 16, 2022)

Thoughts having seen the entire season ...

--Tatiana Maslany was consistently excellent as both Jennifer Walters and She-Hulk.  Her work on _Orphan Black_ suggested she could handle an alter ego character adroitly and she did.  Her casting suggests the creators were going for a sharp contrast between the Jen Walters/She-Hulk personas.  Whereas casting someone like Gwendoline Christie would have suggested an equivalence between the two.  Hopefully we will see more of Maslany.

--The series effectively introduced Daredevil into the MCU.  He's less angsty and more powerful than he was on the Netflix series, but that was to be expected given this is the MCU and the show is _She-Hulk: Attorney At Law_.  I do expect him to be a bit darker on his solo show in 2024.  Charlie Cox adjusted well to this lighter tone and he and Tatiana Maslany have great chemistry on screen. Given that Daredevil/Matt Murdock returned during the finale and even attended a backyard barbecue with Jen's family (!) I think it is likely we will see these two together again in future shows/movies.

--The writing of the show was uneven and the pace sometimes felt disjointed and rushed.  I can forgive that somewhat because _She-Hulk_ was so willing to take chances, especially in the finale, which was unexpected and wild to say the least.  It was a show that did NOT follow the standard MCU blueprint.  I remember the She-Hulk fourth wall breaks from the comics but I had forgotten they sometimes got that extreme.

--I think the fact the show deviated so far from the MCU blueprint is why some people didn't like it.  It was basically a 1/2 hour sitcom with relatively low stakes that happened to exist within the MCU.  It wasn't what we are used to.  But I like the change.  I grew up in the era before prestige TV watching the sitcoms of the 1980s and 90s.  It was fun to see this within the MCU.  Not everything has to be stories where the world or the hero's life/loved one is at stake.

--Perhaps having seen the attacks against _Captain Marvel_ and _Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk _correctly anticipated the backlash from certain (mostly male) quarters of the Internet and made them the principal villains of the season.  I found this amusing, though incels probably didn't.


----------



## p_johnston (Oct 16, 2022)

So let me start by saying I really liked She-Hulk. I don't think it's the best MCU series on D+ but (even accounting for recency bias) I do think it's going to land near the top of my list. 

That being said I think my overall review of the show is "More clever then most of the D+ marvel series's so far but not as clever as it thinks it is."
Having the big bad of the season actually be just angry male internet trolls? Very clever and up to episode 8 very well done. 
The ending of the series, although it did have high points, just felt kinda disappointing though. They essentially deliberately wrote a very naughty word ending, made a joke about doing so, and then used said joke to avoid having to write an actual ending. It wasn't the worst season finale they've done (_cough_ _cough_ Loki) but it wasn't great. 

Also side note, Did anyone else wonder why Jen had her job back at the end of the show? Like I was under the impression that she lost her job because of the bad PR from her "Hulk out" at the end of episode eight. How does sueing the assholes who provoked her magically fix that? Just a minor quibble overall but it annoyed me.


----------



## p_johnston (Oct 16, 2022)

I really liked the end of episode 8 by the way and wanted to just do a thought experiment of how other Marvel heroes would have reacted/dealt with the troll squad (Intelligencia) if they did something equally embarrassing to them.

And let's first get out of the way that every single hero would smash the hell out of those TV's if for no other reason then it's the easiest way to get them to stop playing the footage. So how would they deal with both the Member at the gala (Initial Guy) and HulkKing? Also would they face any consequence for there actions. 
*Iron Man*
Initial Guy: Interrogated 2 miles above the city and dumped 10 miles out into the wilderness with no phone.
HulkKing: Ruins his naughty word life. Gets him fired, ensures he is unable to find other jobs. Jarvis now has a subroutine of "naughty word his life up whenever you can."
Consequences: naughty word all he's a rich white guy and beloved super hero.
*Hulk*
Initial guy: Dead. Just so very, very naughty word dead. Turned into strawberry jam dead.
HulkKing: Probably end up dieing just because he's stupid and choose to keep poking a naughty word hulk.
Consequences: Bruce feels guilty and ends up self isolating but public opinion is behind him because he's a man, an Avenger, and Intelligencia was stupid for provoking him.
*Thor*
Initial Guy: In traction for being hit by lightning.
HulkKing: Dead or severely wounded if Thor can ever figure out how to actually track him down.
Consequences: Nothing. Thor would see nothing wrong with naughty word all those trolls up and the government doesn't want the headache/PR nightmare of trying to arrest him.
*Captain America*
Initial Guy: Cap does exactly what Jen does which is chase him down, capture him, and not significantly harm them.
HulkKing: Much like Thor it depends on if Cap can actually find him. If he ever does he probably just tells him to stop and if he doesn't Cap breaks his nose because HulkKing is a bully.
Consequences: He's captain america. He probably get's a god damn medal.
*Hawkeye*
Initial Guy: In the Er for arrow wound to leg and several broken bones.
HulkKing: dead. Just naughty word dead.
Consequences: None.
*Black Widow*
Initial Guy: Initially heavily injured but alive. Later find dead in his hospital bed under "mysterious circumstances."
HulkKing: Dead. Just naughty word dead.
Consequences: None.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 16, 2022)

p_johnston said:


> So let me start by saying I really liked She-Hulk. I don't think it's the best MCU series on D+ but (even accounting for recency bias) I do think it's going to land near the top of my list.
> 
> That being said I think my overall review of the show is "More clever then most of the D+ marvel series's so far but not as clever as it thinks it is."
> Having the big bad of the season actually be just angry male internet trolls? Very clever and up to episode 8 very well done.
> ...



I got the impression Jen lost the job because she couldnt be She-Hulk anymore, at the end of show thats resolved and she’s back in the Superhuman Law Division. Her boss is kinda unscrupulous so I could believe that


----------



## p_johnston (Oct 16, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I got the impression lost the job because she couldnt be She-Hulk anymore, at the end of show thats resolved and she’s back in the Superhuman Law Division. Her boss is kinda unscrupulous so I could believe that



I mean that makes more sense but I think my initial point still stands. All the trouble she got in was because of the actions she took at the Gala in response to the video. How does sueing the people responsible magically make all of those disappear? Like I said it's a minor quibble but it irked me.


----------



## Ogre Mage (Oct 16, 2022)

p_johnston said:


> Also side note, Did anyone else wonder why Jen had her job back at the end of the show? Like I was under the impression that she lost her job because of the bad PR from her "Hulk out" at the end of episode eight. How does sueing the assholes who provoked her magically fix that? Just a minor quibble overall but it annoyed me.




In the final scene we saw She-Hulk practicing law but do we know she was rehired by GLK&H?  That wasn't shown.  She might be working somewhere else or maybe she started her own practice like Matt Murdock.   She might have developed enough of a client base during her time at GLK&H to do that.

Two other unrelated observations --

--We saw Hulk introduce his son Skaar.  Might this be setting up World War Hulk?  Further evidence  -- K.E.V.I.N was explaining why he suddenly dropped Hulk into the finale and Jen said "save it for the movie."

--This was the first MCU show I watched that felt like a true sitcom instead of a 6 hour movie cut up into six parts.  The format lends itself more toward multiple seasons than some other shows.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 16, 2022)

Now that this one is over, it looks like all that is left for 2022 is season 2 of What If? and the GotG Holiday Special. Next after that is the Secret Invasion series some time in the Spring. That is not much over the next 4-6 months.


----------



## pukunui (Oct 16, 2022)

p_johnston said:


> I mean that makes more sense but I think my initial point still stands. All the trouble she got in was because of the actions she took at the Gala in response to the video. How does sueing the people responsible magically make all of those disappear? Like I said it's a minor quibble but it irked me.



It's because Jen got to write her own ending. Apparently that included getting her job back (or at least being able to continue working as a lawyer if she's not still with GLK&H).



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Now that this one is over, it looks like all that is left for 2022 is season 2 of What If? and the GotG Holiday Special. Next after that is the Secret Invasion series some time in the Spring. That is not much over the next 4-6 months.



Also Black Panther: Wakanda Forever.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 16, 2022)

p_johnston said:


> . How does sueing the people responsible magically make all of those disappear? Like I said it's a minor quibble but it irked me.



yeah, again I think they need writers who can do better legal comedy and give better endings -  there are so many unanswered questions left hanging: 
what happened to Josh? How did Todd get access to a Lab that could make the big needle? Where are Emils soulmates? who gave Skaar his terrible haircut?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 16, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Also Black Panther: Wakanda Forever.




That is not on Disney+, that is in theaters.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 16, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That is not on Disney+, that is in theaters.



Yeah I guess theyre hoping Black Panther hype fills the gap until then. 

Looks like Willow will need to be the new focus


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 16, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah I guess theyre hoping Black Panther hype fills the gap until then.
> 
> Looks like Willow will need to be the new focus



The last, best hope for original IP...


----------



## pukunui (Oct 16, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That is not on Disney+, that is in theaters.



I didn't realize you were speaking solely about Disney+.

Besides, I'm sure it'll end up on Disney+ pretty quickly.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 16, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I didn't realize you were speaking solely about Disney+.
> 
> Besides, I'm sure it'll end up on Disney+ pretty quickly.




They were still doing the 45-day gap with Thor, but Black Panther is such a big deal that it may wait longer. So not likely before the 1st of the year.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 16, 2022)

pukunui said:


> It's because Jen got to write her own ending. Apparently that included getting her job back (or at least being able to continue working as a lawyer if she's not still with GLK&H).



Yeah, and I think that was my biggest issue with the finale. By re-writing the story, they make the characters feel less real, even the good ones - even Jen herself.

I saw this video recently, which winds up feeling rather relevant, even prescient:


Especially two of the points that were made: 

First, that the one inevitable consequence of breaking the fourth wall is to remind your audience that they are an audience, and take them out of appreciating the fiction of the show. 

And second, any time an author attempts to do some lampshading of their own product they're making assumptions about what their audience thinks and believes, and since those assumptions inevitbably won't be true for the whole audience, some of them will wind up feeling excluded.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 16, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> who gave Skaar his terrible haircut?



Mom, of course.

Introducing Skar could also be a prelude to a more kid friendly "Agents of S.M.A.S.H.", with a few more Hulks.


----------



## Staffan (Oct 16, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Jen meets Deadpool. Creates an Nth Wall tesseract break, sparking "Secret Wars."



There's a Marvel vs Capcom fighting game where one of Deadpool's special moves is to grab his health bar and beat his opponent with it. I haven't managed to find video evicence of it, but I'm told that if he uses that on She-Hulk, she comments on how if the game had been made ten years ago she'd have been the one pulling that move.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 16, 2022)

Staffan said:


> There's a Marvel vs Capcom fighting game where one of Deadpool's special moves is to grab his health bar and beat his opponent with it. I haven't managed to find video evicence of it, but I'm told that if he uses that on She-Hulk, she comments on how if the game had been made ten years ago she'd have been the one pulling that move.



Found reference, but no video.


----------



## bloodtide (Oct 17, 2022)

The show is now over....and it was OK, but not by much.  I can see the show had problems by executive meddling and writers not knowing what to do.

First, being under the Disney+ "everything must be PG(or pg-13)".  It's always had to make a show about an adult character that acts like a child.  And you can't have any real drama, or real comedy, without adult themes. 

"The show MUST be She-Hulk attorney at law" came the executive order.  It's already hard to do a fictional law show.  It's hard to make a law show "sound real", but also not be boring.  But having a "She-Hulk" in a court room, might sound like a wacky "fish out of water", but it does not really work out so well.  They just CGI She-Hulk sitting there.

"The show must be girl power" order.  Well, always hard to do this one.  She-Hulk's life is "bad" because of something.....somehow.  But the show never quite shows that, just sort of says it shows it.  

"Don't show She-Hulk too much...she is expensive." order.  Sure, CGI is expensive.   

"Don't show too much action" order.  Odd as She-Hulk has Hulk in her name.  But she gets little action, and less 'smash'.  You just get mostly the show Jennifer attorney at law.

"It's a comic book show, but it's also not" order.  Well, some writer or such read at least a couple She-Hulk comics.....but then they use little of that except names  and vague shadows of the ideas.  

The end result is the show we got.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 17, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> The show is now over....and it was OK, but not by much.  I can see the show had problems by executive meddling and writers not knowing what to do.
> 
> First, being under the Disney+ "everything must be PG(or pg-13)".  It's always had to make a show about an adult character that acts like a child.  And you can't have any real drama, or real comedy, without adult themes.
> 
> ...



We watched a completely different show.


----------



## Bolares (Oct 19, 2022)

p_johnston said:


> Also side note, Did anyone else wonder why Jen had her job back at the end of the show? Like I was under the impression that she lost her job because of the bad PR from her "Hulk out" at the end of episode eight. How does sueing the assholes who provoked her magically fix that? Just a minor quibble overall but it annoyed me.



I don't know if she had her exact job back. She continued being a lawyer, but I understood it as her not being in that office anymore. Her family was also making a big deal of Matt having a private practice.


----------



## Dire Bare (Oct 19, 2022)

Bolares said:


> I don't know if she had her exact job back. She continued being a lawyer, but I understood it as her not being in that office anymore. Her family was also making a big deal of Matt having a private practice.



The finale wasn't clear, but . . . Jen's amoral boss made it clear at the beginning of the show, that it wasn't Jen that GLK&H hired, but She-Hulk. No She-Hulk, no job. So when Jen was legally barred from transforming into She-Hulk, she lost her job. When she had that privilege restored, she got her job back.


----------



## Bolares (Oct 19, 2022)

that makes sense


----------



## John R Davis (Oct 19, 2022)

I really enjoyed it.
Some jokes I didn't get ( non-USA / non-young viewer).


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 20, 2022)

Some of the jokes certainly failed to make it across the Atlantic.


----------



## Maxperson (Oct 20, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> That intro was fun! I'm glad they gave that too us before the season ended.



That was the only part of the last episode that I liked.  Loved the series up until the finale.


----------



## Maxperson (Oct 20, 2022)

p_johnston said:


> Also side note, Did anyone else wonder why Jen had her job back at the end of the show? Like I was under the impression that she lost her job because of the bad PR from her "Hulk out" at the end of episode eight. How does sueing the assholes who provoked her magically fix that? Just a minor quibble overall but it annoyed me.



The bad guy was caught and the charges against her were dismissed.  I got the impression that they realized that she was set up and it really wasn't her fault, and unlike the Hulk, she calmed down as soon as she was outside and someone told her to.  All of that combined = forgiven.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 20, 2022)

The super 4th wall break at the end could have been really cool, and I liked the Kevin bot. But ultimately the ending fell flat.

So after all of our cool little character development with Emil...he's a bad guy again? Was he even aware he was at an intelligencia gathering (which would have major implications for his relationships with jen, talk about a breach of trust), or was he just doing a speaking engagements about "achieving your dream" having no idea what the dream was? Its really not clear.

So the stealing of She-Hulk's blood meant nothing? I'm all for not just having another villain with superpowers, but it seems like that plotline is just dropped now? They could have at least done something else with that for the villain to keep it relevant.

Ultimately the show made it seem like Jen was entirely innocent in all of this, that is was all Intelligencia's fault. But....Jen's destructive outburst WAS HER FAULT. It was horrific what happened to her, but at the end of the day she destroyed private property (could have brought the building down if she had gotten unlucky and that had been a more weight supporting wall), she scared a crapton of innocent people (imagine someone walking into a mall waving a gun. Even if they don't shoot someone, that is NOT ok). Effectively what Bruce warned her about (and what she blew off at the beginning of the show) came to pass, as a Hulk, you don't get to have a bad day, you don't get to lose control because of mean things people do to you. When you hulk out of control....people can die, and that is an ENORMOUS responsibility. But the show plays it off as if Jen did nothing wrong....and that's not right.

So ultimately the show just ended on a flat note to me, as so many of the marvel shows seemed to do nowaways.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 20, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> But the show plays it off as if Jen did nothing wrong....and that's not right.




I mean ... your issue with the ending was ... the point, right?  

Jen didn't do anything wrong. 

And if we really think about it, get right into it, we have a standard for one Hulk ... you know, who truly has done some deplorable things and yet not only gets forgiven for it is but is a _member of the Avengers, _and another standard for She-Hulk, who was expertly set up on by some terrible men and was publicly humiliated in the worst possible fashion in front of every professional she works with along with her family ... and she should be punished even more?

It's almost ... _almost_ ... like there's a difference in how male and female anger are viewed as appropriate and/or forgivable. 

(Now, I still think that the ending isn't for everyone; not everyone likes breaking the fourth wall, and the particular way that this show did so and subverted narrative expectations about how the show was _supposed _to tied up plot points and _supposed_ to have the big bad fight can be off-putting. I can respect that. But I do think that the intention of the show w/r/t the message was fairly unambiguous.)


----------



## Bolares (Oct 20, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> So after all of our cool little character development with Emil...he's a bad guy again? Was he even aware he was at an intelligencia gathering (which would have major implications for his relationships with jen, talk about a breach of trust), or was he just doing a speaking engagements about "achieving your dream" having no idea what the dream was? Its really not clear.



I don't think he is a bad guy again. He is a slimy coach that breaks the law to do lectures as abomination. He didn't know they were inteligencia, but was arrested for braking his parole. If he was a bad guy again I doubt Wong would've saved him.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 20, 2022)

Bolares said:


> I don't think he is a bad guy again. He is a slimy coach that breaks the law to do lectures as abomination. He didn't know they were inteligencia, but was arrested for braking his parole. If he was a bad guy again I doubt Wong would've saved him.




Agreed. IIRC, when Hulk comes in, Jen briefly tries to stop the two from fighting before breaking the Fourth Wall. I remember thinking while watching it, "Oh no, Emil's part of the baddies," but then understanding that he was just the hired coach.


----------



## RealAlHazred (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Agreed. IIRC, when Hulk comes in, Jen briefly tries to stop the two from fighting before breaking the Fourth Wall. I remember thinking while watching it, "Oh no, Emil's part of the baddies," but then understanding that he was just the hired coach.



I mean, Emil picked her up to get her away from the men so she wouldn't _have _to turn into She-Hulk to defend herself and break the law. _He's_ got a lackadaisical attitude to the Law, but he knows _Jen_ doesn't.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 20, 2022)

RealAlHazred said:


> I mean, Emil picked her up to get her away from the men so she wouldn't _have _to turn into She-Hulk to defend herself and break the law. _He's_ got a lackadaisical attitude to the Law, but he knows _Jen_ doesn't.




I would totally watch a show with Emil, Madisynn, Trevor Slattery, Yussuf Khan, and Lucky the Pizza Dog.


----------



## Bolares (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I would totally watch a show with Emil, Madisynn, Trevor Slattery, Yussuf Khan, and Lucky the Pizza Dog.



all renting an apartment in new york


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 20, 2022)

Bolares said:


> all renting an apartment in new york




Now, I did hear a scurrilous rumor, probably from TMZ, that Lucky the Pizza Dog has gone to the dark side.

That's right ... he has been seduced by the evil that is .... _pineapple pizza. _Pray for his immortal soul.


----------



## RealAlHazred (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I would totally watch a show with Emil, Madisynn, Trevor Slattery, Yussuf Khan, and Lucky the Pizza Dog.



You forgot Darryl, Thor's roommate.


----------



## Bolares (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Now, I did hear a scurrilous rumor, probably from TMZ, that Lucky the Pizza Dog has gone to the dark side.
> 
> That's right ... he has been seduced by the evil that is .... _pineapple pizza. _Pray for his immortal soul.



he is a dog... dogs eat anything.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 20, 2022)

Bolares said:


> he is a dog... dogs eat anything.




Are you sure? Or is this, perhaps, the first piece of evidence that Lucky has been replaced by ... a _Skrull_??????

#bringbackthereallucky
#thesecretinvasionbeginswithpineapples


----------



## Bolares (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Are you sure? Or is this, perhaps, the first piece of evidence that Lucky has been replaced by ... a _Skrull_??????
> 
> #bringbackthereallucky
> #thesecretinvasionbeginswithpineapples



With how afraid skrulls get of flarken, I don't think they can turn in to dogs


----------



## MarkB (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Are you sure? Or is this, perhaps, the first piece of evidence that Lucky has been replaced by ... a _Skrull_??????
> 
> #bringbackthereallucky
> #thesecretinvasionbeginswithpineapples



What makes you think skrulls like pineapple?


----------



## Bolares (Oct 20, 2022)

MarkB said:


> What makes you think skrulls like pineapple?



what makes you think snarf thinks?


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 20, 2022)

MarkB said:


> What makes you think skrulls like pineapple?




1. Skrulls hate us.

2. Pineapples want to eat us.

3. Therefore, skrulls are trying to get us used to having pineapples .... the enemy is calling from on your pizza! 

LOGIC.


----------



## Ixal (Oct 20, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> hopefully season 2…



Doesn't look like there will be one








						She-Hulk May Already Be Cancelled
					

According to actress Tatiana Maslany, the future of She-Hulk: Attorney at Law is not a sure thing at Disney+.




					www.giantfreakinrobot.com


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 20, 2022)

Ixal said:


> Doesn't look like there will be one




It's unfortunate, if not surprising.

The problem with the Disney+ MCU shows is that they aren't really ... shows. They're just _movie-adjacent media properties_.

With the exception of Loki, none of the live-action shows has been given a greenlight for a second season. It doesn't matter if the property in question was wonderfully received and works great as a TV show (_Ms. Marvel_) or if the show ended on some type of ending that called out for another season (_Moon Knight_).

I think it might be time to stop viewing them as TV Shows and start viewing them as miniseries related to the movies.


----------



## Ixal (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> It's unfortunate, if not surprising.
> 
> The problem with the Disney+ MCU shows is that they aren't really ... shows. They're just _movie-adjacent media properties_.
> 
> ...



Speaking of which, they apparently want to bring back Agents of Shield and connect it to the MCU which would be exactly what you suggested.








						Exclusive: Agents of SHIELD Returning To The Marvel Cinematic Universe
					

At long last, the Agents of SHIELD are being brought back to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, but that raises some questions.




					www.giantfreakinrobot.com


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 20, 2022)

Ixal said:


> Speaking of which, they apparently want to bring back Agents of Shield and connect it to the MCU which would be exactly what you suggested.




I have to assume this is the long con in action.

Kevin Feige is just looking for a way to get Agent Coulson back in the MCU ... so they can come up with new ways to kill him (and bring him back).


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> It's unfortunate, if not surprising.
> 
> The problem with the Disney+ MCU shows is that they aren't really ... shows. They're just _movie-adjacent media properties_.
> 
> ...



Yeah thats generally what I’ve been doing - thinking of Multiverse of Madness as season 2 of WandaVision. and then whatever's next.

I’m sure that Jen will show up again somewhere and with all the Hulks coming up in New World Order, it seems we will be getting the story continued in some form.

not sure if we’ll ever see Titania again though, she ended up being very incidental


----------



## pukunui (Oct 20, 2022)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jen / She-Hulk shows up in the new Daredevil show.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 20, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah thats generally what I’ve been doing - thinking of Multiverse of Madness was season 2 of WandaVision. and then whatever's next.
> 
> I’m sure that Jen will show up again somewhere and with all the Hulks coming up in New World Order, it seems we will be getting the story continued in some form.
> 
> *not sure if we’ll ever see Titania again though, she ended up being very incidental*




Which totally sucks! Look, I would love to see more of the low-stakes "villainy" of Titania. Or find out what's in Pug's sneaker collection. Or find out about Nikki's fabulous dating life. Or see if Mallory actually has a family ... or maybe is ducking the inevitable Nikki/Mallory ... _teamup_. 

Heck, I would love some more super-law. Yeah, it's not real law. And it's kind of stupid. But c'mon ... who didn't love the settlement conference with Mr. Immortal? 

Some things don't need movies. They need to be enjoyed over time.


----------



## RealAlHazred (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Some things don't need movies. They need to be enjoyed over time.



Funny you should say that, because the next Disney+ Marvel series on the roster is _Mr. Immortal's Guide to Life_. I assume we'll just watch him ducking responsibility time and time again for 22 episodes or so.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Which totally sucks! Look, I would love to see more of the low-stakes "villainy" of Titania. Or find out what's in Pug's sneaker collection. Or find out about Nikki's fabulous dating life. Or see if Mallory actually has a family ... or maybe is ducking the inevitable Nikki/Mallory ... _teamup_.
> 
> Heck, I would love some more super-law. Yeah, it's not real law. And it's kind of stupid. But c'mon ... who didn't love the settlement conference with Mr. Immortal?
> 
> Some things don't need movies. They need to be enjoyed over time.



We are getting the Special Presentations coming up, so who knows Pug might get to pimp his sneakers soon


----------



## Umbran (Oct 20, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I think it might be time to stop viewing them as TV Shows and start viewing them as miniseries related to the movies.




Not everything has to be a trilogy of novels.

There was a time when the short story was the monarch of the sci-fi/fantasy genre.  The shift away from that has more to do with marketing and the economics of publishing than whether novels or short stories are "better".  If Marvel wants to give us a bunch of short stories, I'm good with that. It fits the comics genre pretty well.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 20, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Not everything has to be a trilogy of novels.
> 
> There was a time when the short story was the monarch of the sci-fi/fantasy genre.  The shift away from that has more to do with marketing and the economics of publishing than whether novels or short stories are "better".  If Marvel wants to give us a bunch of short stories, I'm good with that. It fits the comics genre pretty well.



Imagine how we'd all feel about Heroes, had it ended after one season....rather than what they gave us later!

That said, I'd have liked a different ending of WandaVision if that's all we got.....at least She Hulk had something of an ending.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 20, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> That said, I'd have liked a different ending of WandaVision if that's all we got.....at least She Hulk had something of an ending.




I thought WandaVision ended fine.  If Ms. Marvel weren't headed for the movies, that ending was sub-par.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 20, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I thought WandaVision ended fine.  If Ms. Marvel weren't headed for the movies, that ending was sub-par.



Haven't watched that yet. So many shows....


----------



## MarkB (Oct 21, 2022)

I feel like Disney really need to take some time to reconsolidate their brand with Marvel. Everything since Endgame has just felt so... unfocused. There's too little of that sense of a larger continuity that ran through the Avengers era, instead it all feels like various unrelated people off doing unrelated stuff, with some occasional wisps of interconnection.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 21, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I feel like Disney really need to take some time to reconsolidate their brand with Marvel. Everything since Endgame has just felt so... unfocused. There's too little of that sense of a larger continuity that ran through the Avengers era, instead it all feels like various unrelated people off doing unrelated stuff, with some occasional wisps of interconnection.



I don't know... The earlier MCU stuff wasn't connected, until it was. We've got a huge number of new chaarcters, with old ones cycling out, so they need to be introduced before they're put into major use.


----------



## Staffan (Oct 21, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I don't know... The earlier MCU stuff wasn't connected, until it was. We've got a huge number of new chaarcters, with old ones cycling out, so they need to be introduced before they're put into major use.



The MCU stuff was connected from the start. Iron Man ended with Nick Fury showing up at Stark's place saying he'd like to talk about the Avengers Initiative. The Hulk had a mix of an attempted recreation of the super-soldier serum with gamma rays creating the Abomination. Hawkeye had a cameo in Thor.

It took a while before one could see the shape of it, but it was definitely planned out from the start.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 21, 2022)

Staffan said:


> The MCU stuff was connected from the start. Iron Man ended with Nick Fury showing up at Stark's place saying he'd like to talk about the Avengers Initiative. The Hulk had a mix of an attempted recreation of the super-soldier serum with gamma rays creating the Abomination. Hawkeye had a cameo in Thor.
> 
> It took a while before one could see the shape of it, but it was definitely planned out from the start.



Echo appears in "Hawkeye", Captain Marvel appears in "Ms. Marvel, " Daredevil appears in "She-Hulk." just to name a few.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 21, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Echo appears in "Hawkeye", Captain Marvel appears in "Ms. Marvel, " Daredevil appears in "She-Hulk." just to name a few.



Yeah, but they're mostly just there. In the early Marvel movies we knew basically from the start that they were building towards the Avengers. There isn't that sense of threads drawing together in the recent movies and shows.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 21, 2022)

Phase four is just as connected as Phase One was. Maybe people are just expecting more connection than they should because of Phases Two and Three. Also, all the Covid delays have really thrown off the pacing for Phase Four. Things are not being released in filming order, for one thing.


----------



## pukunui (Oct 21, 2022)

With the possible exception of _Loki_, pretty much all of the D+ shows have been character origin stories. Even _WandaVision_ was the "origin story" for her (brief) iteration as the Scarlet Witch. _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier _was the origin story for both the new Captain America and John Walker / US Agent. _Hawkeye _was both an origin story for Kate Bishop and a passing-of-the-torch story, as well as a sort of intro for Echo. And so on.

I agree that Phase 4 has felt messy. Let's hope that Phase 5 starts to tighten things up. One of the first things we're getting is _Ant-Man 3_, which will introduce Kang ... whom we've all been waiting for since _Loki_.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> With the possible exception of _Loki_, pretty much all of the D+ shows have been character origin stories. Even _WandaVision_ was the "origin story" for her (brief) iteration as the Scarlet Witch. _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier _was the origin story for both the new Captain America and John Walker / US Agent. _Hawkeye _was both an origin story for Kate Bishop and a passing-of-the-torch story, as well as a sort of intro for Echo. And so on.
> 
> I agree that Phase 4 has felt messy. Let's hope that Phase 5 starts to tighten things up. One of the first things we're getting is _Ant-Man 3_, which will introduce Kang ... whom we've all been waiting for since _Loki_.



"WandaVision" also gave us the origin for Monica Rambeau as Spectrum, though clearly not the origin from the comics. Darcy Lewis gave a link to Thor.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 21, 2022)

I'd be good with stand alone movies.....


----------



## Cadence (Oct 21, 2022)

Finally got to see the last two episodes...  I think our household verdict was 1-8 were mostly enjoyable, and 9 was wtf (and not in a good way).


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 21, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I don't know... The earlier MCU stuff wasn't connected, until it was. We've got a huge number of new chaarcters, with old ones cycling out, so they need to be introduced before they're put into major use.




The phase one movies were connected by the set-up of the Avengers Initiative which was played out through the Post-Credit scenes which linked  Hulk, Iron Man and SHIELD (Fury/Coulson/Hawkeye/Black Widow)-which then linked in Cap and Thor.

Phase four has been tying up loose ends from Endgame, handing over to the new generation and ‘experimenting‘ to broaden the MCU out. Yeah its been messy but it does seem that on top of the _new_ Avengers, there is also a Cosmic stream and a Magic/Horror stream developing -Which is kinda neat, not to mention the arrival of Mutants and Fantastic 4.

I can see why people are impatient, but until the big movies come on next year and we get some proper canon confirmations I dont think that messiness is going to resolve.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Not everything has to be a trilogy of novels.
> 
> There was a time when the short story was the monarch of the sci-fi/fantasy genre.  The shift away from that has more to do with marketing and the economics of publishing than whether novels or short stories are "better".  If Marvel wants to give us a bunch of short stories, I'm good with that. It fits the comics genre pretty well.




Not everything does. 

But some things are better in certain forms than other. There is, in fact, a real difference between (1) a movie; (2) a single-season miniseries, and (3) a multi-season series.

And the problem is not that the miniseries, completed story is a necessarily bad format- in fact, it can be quite excellent! Station Eleven doesn't need another season. Or ... Chernobyl.* Or Alias Grace. Or Sharp Objects. Etc. 

Same here- Hawkeye told its story. I don't _need a season 2. _Same with _WandaVision. Ditto for TFATWS. Loki_ probably could have been one season- I'm not really keen on S2. 

But other shows really could use ... more. Because the things about multi-season series is that they are great when you have amazing supporting characters. When it's not about the action, but more about the world. When I watched _Ms. Marvel_, the person I was watching with (not into superhero stuff) turned to me at the the end and said, "When is season 2?" Or _She-Hulk_. I want more of that low-stakes and FUN MCU. Those are shows that would work really well as extended series, and it's sad that they aren't. Because they aren't making "shows." 

Not everything has to be a TV series. But ... some things should be. 



*It REALLY doesn't need a sequel.


----------



## RealAlHazred (Oct 21, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Station Eleven doesn't need another season. Or ... Chernobyl.*
> 
> *It REALLY doesn't need a sequel.



Well, I have good/bad news for you! We _may very well_ be getting another season of _Chernobyl_! Negotiations and tactics are ongoing!


----------



## fluffybunbunkittens (Oct 21, 2022)

I don't mind the 4th wall break at the end, but it wasn't handled the best it could. Which applies to a lot of things. What an uneven season...

My main objection is that our main character was so often made to feel weak and somehow lame. And not all of it came in the patriarchal ways that they meant to put in, but in them inherently writing stuff in a fashion that you wouldn't do to a male character. And it's weird for a comedy show to be such a downer, and then _not resolve that in a solid fashion_ - I didn't want a fight with losers at a lodge, but the whole ending is just in a rush to get things over with oh and here is obligatory movie tie-in bye now


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 22, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> It's almost ... _almost_ ... like there's a difference in how male and female anger are viewed as appropriate and/or forgivable.



I agree there is a big difference. Lets take a look and compare how the anger of our male hulk and female hulk have been treated in the MCU.

Male Hulk
Was hunted by the US government, using lethal force.
Was forced into exile for years living outside the bounds of society.
Was used as an example for the Sokovia Accords (even though that incident was actually 100% not his fault).

Female Hulk
Got minor jail time and lost her job
Immediately got back her reputation and job back by the end of the episode.

Also how much personal responsibility did our various Hulk's feel for their actions?

Male Hulk

Felt like such a monster and threat to society that he tried to kill himself.
After Sokovia, felt like such a monster and threat to society again (even though it wasn't his fault) that he exiled himself into space (which depending on how well he could have navigated that ship, could be construed as another suicide attempt).
Commonly thought of himself as a monster until finally merging with the Hulk.
Tried to instill that responsibility and importance of control into Jen.
Female Hulk

Felt no remorse for the property damage she caused.
Blamed all of her problems on Intelligencia.


Now you could argue that the Hulk did a lot more damage in his time (which is fair). You could also argue that the Hulk should have been in prison...though maybe he got special release for helping to save New York (or maybe was placed in "special custody" by SHIELD), but its fair to say none of that was explained. But at the end of the day, our Male Hulk got plenty of punishment for his "anger", society ripped into him plenty. Whereas our Female Hulk got a slap on the wrist. If the goal was to show that women get punished by society for showing their anger by comparing her treatment to her male counterpart....well then they failed miserably.

The better approach would have been to not have Jen do property damage, not burst through a brick wall. Have the gala occur, have the video air. Jen "loses it" and just roars and screams. People get scared, suddenly there are guns in her face, she gets put in jail, loses her job because of the publicity. NOW you have a case, this poor woman who just got a bit overwhelmed and screamed in public....no crimes committed, yet everyone freaks out. NOW you are pushing the message in a reasonable way, that this woman is being unfairly treated for "showing a little anger". Instead of what we got, which was a person committing a crime in public...getting arrested.


----------



## Hex08 (Oct 22, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> The better approach would have been to not have Jen do property damage, not burst through a brick wall. Have the gala occur, have the video air. Jen "loses it" and just roars and screams. People get scared, suddenly there are guns in her face, she gets put in jail, loses her job because of the publicity.



Even though it was a comedy it was still a superhero show and that sounds like a pretty dull superhero show.


----------



## pukunui (Oct 22, 2022)

They do acknowledge the whole property damage thing in the second-to-last episode when Daredevil calls her out and she says she’ll go leave a note.

Also, the reason that Jen gets away with it all and gets her reputation/job back is because she gets to write her own ending. If she hadn’t, things probably would’ve gone worse for her.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 22, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Even though it was a comedy it was still a superhero show and that sounds like a pretty dull superhero show.




Um, what superheroing did they have Jen do? Besides smashing the TVs and screaming that was it for that scene. 

The whole series had what 3 legit superhero fights? (4 if Im generous)


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 22, 2022)

Eh, superhero comedy and fourth-wall breaking, such as Deadpool and She-Hulk, is just something you get or you don't. I am not a fan of Deadpool and I enjoyed She-Hulk more in the team comic books, than her solo stuff, back in the days when I still read them, so I went into this show more to just make sure I have watched all MCU stuff, than because I was a big fan of this style. But I ended up enjoying the show for itself and thought all the actors did a good job. Even all the fourth-wall stuff in the final episode, that I would normally not care for, was enjoyable.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 22, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Eh, superhero comedy and fourth-wall breaking, such as Deadpool and She-Hulk, is just something you get or you don't. I am not a fan of Deadpool and I enjoyed She-Hulk more in the team comic books, than her solo stuff, back in the days when I still read them, so I went into this show more to just make sure I have watched all MCU stuff, than because I was a big fan of this style. But I ended up enjoying the show for itself and thought all the actors did a good job. Even all the fourth-wall stuff in the final episode, that I would normally not care for, was enjoyable.




I for one love fourthwall breaking comedy, to the point that I do it in my games and even make pop references in my daily life (since all the worlds a stage), that wasnt the issue with She-Hulk

She-Hulks problem was introducing characters like Titania and Josh and the Lab scene and then dumping them without consequence or follow through.  Then making Jen such a pathetic character that Madisynn was a sparkling light of hope. 

Fourth wall breaks need to serve the narrative and help tell the story not circumvent it and make up for bad writing


----------



## Hex08 (Oct 23, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Um, what superheroing did they have Jen do? Besides smashing the TVs and screaming that was it for that scene.
> 
> The whole series had what 3 legit superhero fights? (4 if Im generous)



It was a superhero show, specifically an MCU superhero show, so it needs some action. Not necessarily fights, but action. Either way, you enjoyed it or you didn't. for what it's worth I did.


----------



## Staffan (Oct 23, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> It was a superhero show, specifically an MCU superhero show, so it needs some action. Not necessarily fights, but action. Either way, you enjoyed it or you didn't. for what it's worth I did.



I thought Jen got plenty of action.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 23, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Female Hulk
> 
> Felt no remorse for the property damage she caused.
> Blamed all of her problems on Intelligencia.




I'm just going to excerpt this part without comment. If you don't see it after you've written it and it's been pointed out, you're not going to.

Again, let's compare the amount of outrage over, say, Hawkeye (another light comedy) and his _shenanigans _as Ronin_. _I've seen a lot of criticism of the show for different reasons, but do you know what I haven't seen? Someone say, "Hey, you know what? I didn't like the show because it allowed Clint to return to his family, instead of suffering for all of the .... 'property damage' he inflicted as Ronin."

I mean- yeah, She-Hulk sure did destroy a bunch of televisions. In the MCU, that needs to be PUNISHED!


----------



## Ixal (Oct 23, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I don't know... The earlier MCU stuff wasn't connected, until it was. We've got a huge number of new chaarcters, with old ones cycling out, so they need to be introduced before they're put into major use.



 And you have no idea which characters are important and which not, which amplifies the feeling that the MCU is unfocused.

Who will make up the next Avengers? Will Spiderman be on the team? What about the Eternals? Or what about the still available old Avengers like Ms. Marvel or Dr. Strange? Or will Wong take his place?
Will She-Hulk be part of the Avengers? Will she also do constant 4th wall breaks or will she behave completely differently? And will the Deus Ex wall break in the last episode be canon?


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 23, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I'm just going to excerpt this part without comment. If you don't see it after you've written it and it's been pointed out, you're not going to.
> 
> Again, let's compare the amount of outrage over, say, Hawkeye (another light comedy) and his _shenanigans _as Ronin_. _I've seen a lot of criticism of the show for different reasons, but do you know what I haven't seen? Someone say, "Hey, you know what? I didn't like the show because it allowed Clint to return to his family, instead of suffering for all of the .... 'property damage' he inflicted as Ronin."
> 
> I mean- yeah, She-Hulk sure did destroy a bunch of televisions. In the MCU, that needs to be PUNISHED!



They didn’t focus on the property damage as Ronin…because the villain is trying to KILL ronin. Aka the punishment has already been taken up a notch.

Let’s also remember a key aspect of the show was Hawkeye helped Kate because she got caught up in the Ronin stuff…and he felt responsibility for that. The character actually cared that their previous actions had negative consequences. That is what is missing from she hulk and one of the reasons Jen doesn’t seem all that interesting. I can forgive details about X and Y if the story and message are on point, and the reason I nitpick she hulk is because the story and message is just scrambled and weak


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 23, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Someone say, "Hey, you know what? I didn't like the show because it allowed Clint to return to his family, instead of suffering for all of the .... 'property damage' he inflicted as Ronin."




all we know about MCU Ronin is that he was a gangster killing vigilante during the five years of the snap who eventually got brought in by Black Widow to help recover the Infinity stones - for all we know he was punished   due to his crimes and then got released to retirement.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 23, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> They didn’t focus on the property damage as Ronin…because the villain is trying to KILL ronin. Aka the punishment has already been taken up a notch.
> 
> Let’s also remember a key aspect of the show was Hawkeye helped Kate because she got caught up in the Ronin stuff…




Okay, I guess this does need to be spelled out ...


The Ronin "stuff?" Hawkeye straight-up was killing people. It wasn't property damage. HE WAS KILLING PEOPLE. He was the baddie.*

And you keep getting hung up on consequences of ... this property damage? _THIS PROPERTY DAMAGE?_ Have you ever watched an MCU movie? Let's put aside the possibility that there are people in building and cities that might have ... you know ... died ... the sheer amount of "property damage" caused by heroes on a regular basis is insane.

I mean ... I can't point this out any better than you have yourself, multiple times. If you are getting really hung up on this, if you just have to insist that She-Hulk be more punished for ... this property damage ... I don't think you'll find the answers on the screen. 



* @Tonguez Actually, we know a lot more. Ronin was never caught. We know that (1) he was Ronin throughout the "snap." That Natasha brought him back to help reverse the snap. So it was some time from 1 to five years leading up to the snap reversal. There is nothing from Yolena indicating that she thinks Hawkeye has suffered in any way, nor do people identify him in any way as having been punished. So no- your belied that he has been punished for his many many many murders makes no sense.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 23, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> * @Tonguez Actually, we know a lot more. Ronin was never caught. We know that (1) he was Ronin throughout the "snap." That Natasha brought him back to help reverse the snap. So it was some time from 1 to five years leading up to the snap reversal. There is nothing from Yolena indicating that she thinks Hawkeye has suffered in any way, nor do people identify him in any way as having been punished. So no- your belied that he has been punished for his many many many murders makes no sense.




Barton was still under house arrest via Secretary Ross when the snap happened. Then after the original Thanos is killed he loses hope of getting his family back and because there is no government left becomes a vigilante killer. He is eventually brought in by Widow and given a chance to reverse the snap as the first person to test time travel.
Yelena is of the opnion he wasnt punished but at that point is still antagonistic to Barton so her opinion is probably biased. Nonetheless the show does make an effort to point out that rightly or wrongly the Avengers get special privilege of being ‘heroes’. 
As per there time in the Raft, we know there are special deals being made with government authorities to hold them accountable without being incarcerated.

Then theres a whole question of who has the authority to punish Barton for his crimes as Ronin - the social effects of the snap have only been hinted at so far, but at least some government function was lost and had to be rebuilt.

but the escape from the Raft, Wanda leaving Westview and Ronins ‘retirement’ all beg the question - is there anyone who can arrest and hold a an avenger who doesnt volunteer to stay put


----------



## Staffan (Oct 23, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> but the escape from the Raft, Wanda leaving Westview and Ronins ‘retirement’ all beg the question - is there anyone who can arrest and hold a an avenger who doesnt volunteer to stay put



Also, Scott slipping his ankle monitor onto an enlarged ant while he was supposedly under house arrest.


----------



## p_johnston (Oct 23, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I agree there is a big difference. Lets take a look and compare how the anger of our male hulk and female hulk have been treated in the MCU.
> 
> Male Hulk
> Was hunted by the US government, using lethal force.
> ...



I did a post about it earlier but just to reiterate. Every single hero in the MCU would have acted in the exact same manor as Jen at a minimum. I cannot think of a single hero that wouldn't have destroyed the televisions and captured the fleeing dickbag. The only reason I can't say the same about destroying the brick wall is because a lot of other hero's wouldn't have been able to, not that they wouldn't. I would go further to say that most of the MCU hero's would have done much, much worse to both the guy at the scene of the awards and intelligencia as a whole. 

To further the point let's take Captain America. The unequivocal good guy of the MCU. The moral compass of that entire universe. He's receiving and award and some Natzi Dickbag puts a sex tape of Peggy Carter on the screen. What does cap do? Well he destroys the TV's to stop the tape and chases down the Natzi Dickbag and you can bet your behind that he would Kool-Aid man through a wall to do so. The only difference there is that no one would blink an eye at Cap doing so.


----------



## Cadence (Oct 24, 2022)

p_johnston said:


> I did a post about it earlier but just to reiterate. Every single hero in the MCU would have acted in the exact same manor as Jen at a minimum. I cannot think of a single hero that wouldn't have destroyed the televisions and captured the fleeing dickbag. The only reason I can't say the same about destroying the brick wall is because a lot of other hero's wouldn't have been able to, not that they wouldn't. I would go further to say that most of the MCU hero's would have done much, much worse to both the guy at the scene of the awards and intelligencia as a whole.
> 
> To further the point let's take Captain America. The unequivocal good guy of the MCU. The moral compass of that entire universe. He's receiving and award and some Natzi Dickbag puts a sex tape of Peggy Carter on the screen. What does cap do? Well he destroys the TV's to stop the tape and chases down the Natzi Dickbag and you can bet your behind that he would Kool-Aid man through a wall to do so. The only difference there is that no one would blink an eye at Cap doing so.



Now I'm imagining the various Thor reactions one might get at different stages in the MCU...


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 24, 2022)

The only reason that Black Widow wouldn't have left the Intelligencia guy bleeding out on the floor is that she would need him alive in order find, then deal with all the others. She might be one of the few MCU women who could get away with that, because it's expected at this point.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 24, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Okay, I guess this does need to be spelled out ...
> 
> 
> The Ronin "stuff?" Hawkeye straight-up was killing people. It wasn't property damage. HE WAS KILLING PEOPLE. He was the baddie.*
> ...



So I read over your thoughts....and (que shocked side track)....I agree with you. There are a number of times when a person "should" have been punished more in MCU movies and wasn't.

So I thought about it a bit deeper. Why did it bother me so much in this show and not elsewhere?

The answer.... the spiderman phrase "With Great Power comes Great responsibility". The classic separation between heroes and villains is that heroes take responsibility for their power,

Now sometimes the MCU does that "externally", by actually inflicting punishment on the heroes when they do wrong. And sometimes its "internal", we see the heroes struggle with guilt, vow to do better, etc etc. But whether its internal or external, the common heroic theme is....heroes rise with their power, they pick themselves up, they take responsibility, they become better versions of themselves, etc.

That is what is missing from She-Hulk to me. There is no real character growth. You could say Jen has learned to be comfortable with her alter-ego....which is something, but its pretty flat all said and done. Had She-Hulk taken that moment as a bit of a wake up call, "maybe Bruce was right, I do have to respect these powers and what they mean", that could have been some interesting character development. Instead everything was just tidied up with a nice little bow, bad men did bad things, hulk smash, all is good for hulk again. Its....boring when your characters don't grow and evolve.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> So I read over your thoughts....and (que shocked side track)....I agree with you. There are a number of times when a person "should" have been punished more in MCU movies and wasn't.
> 
> So I thought about it a bit deeper. Why did it bother me so much in this show and not elsewhere?
> 
> ...




So, addressing this. You have to understand _what the actual theme of the show is. _Spiderman, for example, is often focused on "With great power comes great responsibility." But do you know what isn't?

Almost every other superhero arc, including almost every iteration of the Hulk. If you were looking for She-Hulk to be Spiderman, and to have that theme, you're going to be disappointed- just as if you went into Captain America: Civil War and were like ... dang, I wish they had explored the idea of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility." Or the latest Batman movie. Or the last Black Widow movie. And so on.

I'll give you another example. Some people think all superhero stories are supposed to be "fight, fight, and then fight the big bad." Again, if you were looking for that, you were going to be disappointed. Because that wasn't this show.

And it's okay to not like the choices that were made! Different people like different things. But you have to start by trying to understand what was trying to be accomplished, and the degree to which it was successful.

This show didn't "hide the ball." When you watched the first episode, you thought it was about Hulk trying to teach Jen about "being responsible." _It wasn't_. It was about Jen trying to stand up for herself- about affirming that she wasn't two different people, that she wasn't the same as Bruce/Hulk, and _most importantly_, she wasn't going to just be a superhero- she wanted her life that she had worked hard for and she wanted to be an attorney. Importantly, it also dealt with the theme of the difference between how women and men act and are perceived in society- something that continued throughout the season in serious (that gala....) and playful ways (such as Daredevil's "walk of shame"). The show practically hit you on the head with the themes- this wasn't going to be a MCU beat 'em up, but was going to be a fourth-wall breaking light comedy that touches on gender issues in society. 

And that point was hammered home in the season (series?) finale. K.E.V.I.N. wanted to give the viewers what they expected from an MCU show. Solve things with your fists. Payoff to yet another "blood" plotline. Hulk comes to save the day. Etc. But Jen wasn't having this- she had already announced it in the penultimate episode (this is her show). This wasn't going to be a big battle royale. Hulk wasn't saving the day. Instead, we jump ahead and see regular ol' police arresting the Big Bad. And then Jen (as She-Hulk, and happily so) going into Court.

But Jen did massively evolve throughout the series. She went from resenting the intrusion of the She-Hulk alter-ego to integrating it. She didn't need to use hulk powers to smash the sneering and mediocre men trying to take her down- she could use her awesome Jen powers for that. She doesn't need to be She-Hulk to get a hottie like Matt Murdock- she can get him to an embarrassing family meal just as herself.

And she didn't need to take what was given to her in the season finale. She  gets to advocate for the ending she wants. It's her show.


Again, in saying this, I don't think the show was perfect. When I ranked the MCU shows, I still rank it in the second tier of Disney+ MCU shows- along with Moon Knight and Loki. I think some of the jokes in the finale could have been better. I think the finale had some bad transitions. I think that the show could have focused a little more on the law side- the parts they did were pretty funny and did a good job with the absurdity of the MCU universe (like Mr. Immortal).


----------



## Ixal (Oct 24, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> So, addressing this. You have to understand _what the actual theme of the show is. _Spiderman, for example, is often focused on "With great power comes great responsibility." But do you know what isn't?
> 
> Almost every other superhero arc, including almost every iteration of the Hulk. If you were looking for She-Hulk to be Spiderman, and to have that theme, you're going to be disappointed- just as if you went into Captain America: Civil War and were like ... dang, I wish they had explored the idea of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility." Or the latest Batman movie. Or the last Black Widow movie. And so on.



Hulk was constantly faced with this problem, both in his own movie, in Avengers when Loki used this (for example the existence of the holding cell) to sow distrust and in Ultron when his actions were the reasons for the Accords and everything they caused. Not to mention that it led him to exile himself from Earth.

Iron Man has a similar theme with his good intentions coming back to haunt him and causing problems, again both in his own movies and in Ultron which directly set up Civil War because it shaped his character.

Thor was faced with the consequences of his actions in Thor 1 and Loki in his own series which contributed greatly for him to become more of an anti-hero than a straight up villain. And even Natasha had glimpses of this theme in Avenger of being haunted by her past as assassin.
That power corrupts was even the theme of Ant Man 1.

So, no, its not just Spiderman, its a pretty common theme.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 24, 2022)

Ixal said:


> Hulk was constantly faced with this problem, both in his own movie, in Avengers when Loki used this (for example the existence of the holding cell) to sow distrust and in Ultron when his actions were the reasons for the Accords and everything they caused. Not to mention that it led him to exile himself from Earth.
> 
> Iron Man has a similar theme with his good intentions coming back to haunt him and causing problems, again both in his own movies and in Ultron which directly set up Civil War because it shaped his character.
> 
> ...




You're mixing up different themes. "Power corrupts," is a very different theme than, "With great power comes great responsibilty."

This was the raison d'etre of Spidey- the reason he _had to be a hero_ is because his refusal to engage in heorism- his selfishness, led to the death of his Uncle Ben. This is a simple and powerful message- if you have the power to do something, do it for weal (for good). This is nothing more than a modern example of the very old idea - entitlements also come with social obligations. Heck, you can see this idea (nobelesse oblige) in House of Dragons right now!*

But that's not the same as "power corrupts." Nor is it the same as the Hulk- in fact, it's far from it! The exile from the earth is the _exact opposite _of it. The themes that run through the various iterations of the Hulk have nothing to do with this.

The theme is very specific in Spiderman- and the modern form is more about civic virtue and duties.


*The idea that, "It's good to the be the King," pace History of the World, is always balanced by the responsibilities of the nobility.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 24, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> She didn't need to use hulk powers to smash the sneering and mediocre men trying to take her down- she could use her awesome Jen powers for that.



I think that is part of what bothered me. I don't mind that Jen does things differently, finding another path other than violence I think is a great thing.

But there is no struggle, no real conflict at all. Jen just literally waves a magic wand, and gets the ending she wants. That's not really a satisfying story. It would have been like if Thanos had the full infinity gauntlet at the beginning of the movie, he walks up, wins....movie ends. Now since the show is supposed to be a comedy it could be played for laughs....but it really wasn't that funny either. I did have a light chuckle at the KEVIN bot, but that was about it.

So ultimately that's part of the failure to me, it didn't really fit in to any genre. It wasn't funny enough to be a true comedy, wasn't dramatic enough to be a drama. Not enough character dive to be a character profile show. It just...kind of did stuff, and stuff kinda happened.


----------



## RealAlHazred (Oct 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> But there is no struggle, no real conflict at all. Jen just literally waves a magic wand, and gets the ending she wants.



Did you see the episode where she had to humiliatedly admit in court that nobody wanted to date her, they all wanted to date She-Hulk? I mean, that's basically a compliment!


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 24, 2022)

RealAlHazred said:


> Did you see the episode where she had to humiliatedly admit in court that nobody wanted to date her, they all wanted to date She-Hulk? I mean, that's basically a compliment!



Yay for female empowerment? Or something?


----------



## pukunui (Oct 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Jen just literally waves a magic wand, and gets the ending she wants. That's not really a satisfying story.



Maybe not for you. I expect there are heaps of women out there who reveled in the wish fulfillment of Jen getting to write her own ending, though.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 24, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Maybe not for you. I expect there are heaps of women out there who reveled in the wish fulfillment of Jen getting to write her own ending, though.



That's an interesting thought. Do women generally prefer in their fantasy the notion of "win without struggle", is that something that female watchers generally prefer in their stories?

Hmm interesting psychological study idea.


----------



## RealAlHazred (Oct 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> That's an interesting thought. Do women generally prefer in their fantasy the notion of "win without struggle",



You keep using that phrase, "without struggle." I don't think it means what you think it means.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> That's an interesting thought. Do women generally prefer in their fantasy the notion of "win without struggle", is that something that female watchers generally prefer in their stories?
> 
> Hmm interesting psychological study idea.




I think that depends on what country you are in. I am sure if the women of Iran could "win without struggle", meaning no more of them being murdered by their own government, they would be happy with that.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> That's an interesting thought. Do women generally prefer in their fantasy the notion of "win without struggle", is that something that female watchers generally prefer in their stories?
> 
> Hmm interesting psychological study idea.



You must have missed the episodes before the finale, and the part of the finale where there was clearly struggle and pain. Like, totally.


----------



## billd91 (Oct 24, 2022)

Bolares said:


> I don't think he is a bad guy again. He is a slimy coach that breaks the law to do lectures as abomination. He didn't know they were inteligencia, but was arrested for braking his parole. If he was a bad guy again I doubt Wong would've saved him.



It's not like he's the bad guy, or even a particularly slimy coach. I think he's just someone who compartmentalizes various things to live the life he wants, breaking various relatively minor laws/requirements that aren't really hurting anyone, but nevertheless are important symbols of his rehabilitation to the people and institutions he hurt. I think he's genuinely not really the titanic asshat he was in the Hulk movie anymore - but sit in a prison cell or give up being Abomination when he could have more fun in life doing something else - that's fine and doesn't *really* hurt anyone.


----------



## billd91 (Oct 24, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I feel like Disney really need to take some time to reconsolidate their brand with Marvel. Everything since Endgame has just felt so... unfocused. There's too little of that sense of a larger continuity that ran through the Avengers era, instead it all feels like various unrelated people off doing unrelated stuff, with some occasional wisps of interconnection.



I don't think so. I think having a little bit of fun with properties more tangentially involved with the overall plots is perfectly fine. The point is they're telling stories that many of us want to see. And that's enough.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 24, 2022)

billd91 said:


> I don't think so. I think having a little bit of fun with properties more tangentially involved with the overall plots is perfectly fine. The point is they're telling stories that many of us want to see. And that's enough.



It doesn't feel like it to me. I revisit most of the pre-Infinity War movies quite often, they stand alone well and also form a satisfying narrative between them.

But I've felt very little incentive to revisit the post-Endgame content. I've re-watched Loki once and that was satisfying, I tried re-watching Wandavision and stalled, and nothing else has felt sufficiently compelling to take a second look at.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 24, 2022)

MarkB said:


> It doesn't feel like it to me. I revisit most of the pre-Infinity War movies quite often, they stand alone well and also form a satisfying narrative between them.
> 
> But I've felt very little incentive to revisit the post-Endgame content. I've re-watched Loki once and that was satisfying, I tried re-watching Wandavision and stalled, and nothing else has felt sufficiently compelling to take a second look at.



My problem with WandaVision was a bit different. I grew up with black & white family sitcoms. It took a conscious effort to make it through the first few episodes, because of that, to see where the show was going. I suppose if I'd been younger and hadn't had the experience of those sappy, saccharine shows I'd have had an easier time of it, because it would have just been a novelty.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 24, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> My problem with WandaVision was a bit different. I grew up with black & white family sitcoms. It took a conscious effort to make it through the first few episodes, because of that, to see where the show was going. I suppose if I'd been younger and hadn't had the experience of those sappy, saccharine shows I'd have had an easier time of it, because it would have just been a novelty.



That is kind-of the problem I had. I was familiar with at least some of the source material (Bewitched was common daytime TV when I was a kid) and the first time through, it was both fun to see how they adapted/parodied the source material and intriguing to see the out-of-place elements poking through.

Second time around, the show didn't have either of those things going for it, so I didn't make it through those first couple of mostly-played-straight episodes to where things started to get weirder.


----------

