# The fate of the Advanced Player's Guide



## Mouseferatu (Aug 1, 2008)

Clark Peterson posted the following over at the Necro boards:



> Here another update for you.
> 
> I have released the text of the Advanced Player's Guide back to Ari for him to do with it what he will.
> 
> ...




I mention this, first of all, so I can thank Clark for being such a class act.  I can only hope that he _does_ get things worked out with WotC so I can do other 4E projects for him in the future.

Second, because I know a number of people have been wondering about the fate of this book, I wanted to give all of you an update. I'm doing everything I can to find a new home for this manuscript (and am already talking to a couple of names you might recognize, though it's all very preliminary), and as soon as I know more, I'll let you know.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 1, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Clark Peterson posted the following over at the Necro boards:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the information!
And Thanks to Clarke for doing this. 

So, Ari, I hope you'll find a way to get this out. Of course, finding a new partner to publish it might take more time then I'd like. But thank to yours and Clarks enthusiasmn, I really wanted to get my hands on the APG and was looking forward to it since it was announced. So, let's hope you get it done before the PHB II hits the streets...

How about a PDF release? I suppose since it is now "yours", and you usually don't publish stuff on your own, all those short-comings of the GSL can't really hurt you. Of course, I'd prefer a printed version...


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## Crothian (Aug 1, 2008)

Ari, get it published I'll be buying a copy.  I'm sure knowing that will help you find a publisher!!  Best of luck with this!!


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## RandomCitizenX (Aug 1, 2008)

This book was honestly the only product I was interested in from Necro, so I am very glad to hear that it has a chance of seeing the light of day.


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## Voadam (Aug 1, 2008)

Great! Good luck with finding it a new home.


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## The Lost Muse (Aug 1, 2008)

Two points:

1) I've been eagerly anticipating the APG since it was announced. Please publish it, and know that it'll sell at least one (and probably several) copies to my group.

2) That's a very classy move by Clark, and I hope necromancer and wotc can get their stuff together.


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## evilref (Aug 1, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> I mention this, first of all, so I can thank Clark for being such a class act.  I can only hope that he _does_ get things worked out with WotC so I can do other 4E projects for him in the future.




That's absolutely great of him, particularly given how often a manuscript will get buried rather than let it be published by another company.



Mouseferatu said:


> Second, because I know a number of people have been wondering about the fate of this book, I wanted to give all of you an update. I'm doing everything I can to find a new home for this manuscript (and am already talking to a couple of names you might recognize, though it's all very preliminary), and as soon as I know more, I'll let you know.




Also great news, I was very much looking forward to this so I hope it sees the light of day.


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## Darrin Drader (Aug 1, 2008)

Crothian said:


> Ari, get it published I'll be buying a copy.




Same here. I'm not the world's biggest 4th edition fan, but I will probably end up in a 4th edition game or two and I'd like to have this book in play when that happens.


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## Rechan (Aug 1, 2008)

I just want to say that Clark is a real stand-up guy. He is clearly a friend and a gamer first, and a businessman second. I wish there were more classy, reasonable, and enthusiastic people like that in business, not just in the gaming community.

I tip my hat to you, Mr Orcus.


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 1, 2008)

Clark and Ari are both class acts.  Let's get this thing published and out there in the hands of the masses!


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## VictorC (Aug 1, 2008)

Good luck finding a new publisher and know when (not if) this product is released I will be buying a copy.


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## Aus_Snow (Aug 1, 2008)

Hope you get to publish it soon. All the best with that.


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## Merlin the Tuna (Aug 1, 2008)

I just wanna give Orcus a great big hug.


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## Terwox (Aug 1, 2008)

Certainly classy.  I hope Necro can work something out w/ WotC.


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## WhatGravitas (Aug 2, 2008)

That's really, really good - and has the potential to make all of us happy (more or less), thanks to Clark's class. Necro remains a cool company, even now.

And you deserve to get that out, Ari (plus, we simply want it!  ), especially considering your current situation regarding the novels (though Shades will hopefully find a new home soon).

And, of course: Keep us updated! 

Cheers, LT.


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## JeffB (Aug 2, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Clark Peterson posted the following over at the Necro boards.




Ari- first of all, Congrats! This is great news!   I'm so disappointed (but totally understanding and agree with Clark) re: Necros recent decison about 4E. They are my "go-to" company when it comes to D&D products and  I was ready to jump all over some 4E goodies from them, including the APG.

Second- whomever publishes it (and I'm sure someone will take you up on it knowing the quality of your work), I'll be grabbing a copy as soon as it hits the shelves.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Aug 2, 2008)

Hey Ari!  No Name Publishing is willing to publish the Advanced Player's Guide as a pdf (though you'll have to agree to our philosophy of AFATT).


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## thundershot (Aug 2, 2008)

So.... where can I preorder it? 




...what? I want instant gratification. 



Chris


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## JVisgaitis (Aug 2, 2008)

Are my eyes deceiving me or am I reading actual good news? 

Clark is definitely a class act and this shows. Ari, I've been looking forward to this since you started talking about it. Sounds awesome and I'll be the first in line when it hits the shelves. Best of luck with it.

P.S. You have a final word on attending Gencon yet? If you are there, I'd like to meet up if possible. Drop me a line.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 2, 2008)

Awesome move by Clark. Good karma there.

Sign me up for a preorder. I'd prefer a hardcover, if possible. I paid for the full-color hardcover Empire of the Ghouls from Lulu, so you've got at least one person willing to drop real cash on this if need be, and I doubt I'm alone.


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## xmanii (Aug 2, 2008)

Wow, very classy of Orcus to do that.


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## Gothmog (Aug 2, 2008)

Wow Ari, this is great news!  Thanks to Clark for being such a standup guy and having the principles to do something for Ari and 4e fans!  I hope Necro can get something worked out with WotC soon so we can get the great support we all want.

And Ari, good luck with printing the APG.  Have you thought about using Lulu and print-on-demand?


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## BryonD (Aug 2, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> Are my eyes deceiving me or am I reading actual good news?



It is simple.  WotC had no involvement.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 2, 2008)

I am so in on this when it happens.  This is fantastic news.  I've been looking forward to this book since it was announced, and I love the Mouse's work.

Kudos to Clark for this move, and I hope that this whole GSL fiasco gets sensibly resolved quickly enough for NG to publish it after all.


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## Gundark (Aug 2, 2008)

I'll buy it


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Aug 2, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> I mention this, first of all, so I can thank Clark for being such a class act.  I can only hope that he _does_ get things worked out with WotC so I can do other 4E projects for him in the future.




Likewise on both counts!



> I'm doing everything I can to find a new home for this manuscript (and am already talking to a couple of names you might recognize, though it's all very preliminary), and as soon as I know more, I'll let you know.




Will many changes need to be made to make it GSL compliant?


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 2, 2008)

Scholar & Brutalman said:


> Will many changes need to be made to make it GSL compliant?




I don't believe so. Obviously, I'm not a lawyer, and it'll be up to the company in question to make certain, but I've tried my best to make it compatible by my understanding of the license.


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## Midnight Dawns (Aug 2, 2008)

I only recently became interested in 3pps. In fact it was thanks to you and Clark this happened. I wish the two of you luck and look forward to your book.


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## Gizmoduck5000 (Aug 2, 2008)

What is the Advanced Players Guide exactly?


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## icarusfallz (Aug 2, 2008)

Ari,

As an amateur designer and an author who got screwed over by MY publisher ( www.amazon.com/Just-Game-Book-Games...4899003?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176080762&sr=8-1 ), I want to congratulate you on your good luck here (and thank Necromancer for giving us the chance to see your work) I will be buying a copy of this, if you manage a way for us to do that.


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## Rechan (Aug 2, 2008)

Gizmoduck5000 said:


> What is the Advanced Players Guide exactly?



A 3rd party book that intended to take all of the 3e PHB options that were left out of the 4th ed PHB and convert them.

So, barbarian, druid, bard, monk, summoning/illusion/necromancy/enchantment, gnomes, half-orcs, etc.


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## WhatGravitas (Aug 2, 2008)

Rechan said:


> A 3rd party book that intended to take all of the 3e PHB options that were left out of the 4th ed PHB and convert them.
> 
> So, barbarian, druid, bard, monk, summoning/illusion/necromancy/enchantment, gnomes, half-orcs, etc.



Of course, it was written for Necromancer Games, meaning it had a distinct old-school feeling.

So, the stuff had more of an older edition feel, I guess. So not illusion powers for the wizard, but instead a full-fledged Illusionist in the vein of older editions.

Druids probably more like the nature specialist priests of 2E than the 3E druid.

EDIT: I've done some searching... from here:


			
				Orcus quoting Ari said:
			
		

> So what have we got for you? The gnome and the half-orc as PC options make a return in the Advanced Player's Guide, as does the “shire halfling.” He's an older fashioned halfling, not the lithe athlete of modern editions but the portly, comfort-loving, hairy-footed hobbi... er, little guy of fantasy's most classic roots.
> 
> The furious barbarian, the inspirational bard (available in both singing and non-singing flavors), the nature-shaping and prayer-casting druid, and the unarmed monk all make their 4E debuts in the APG. And we've also called our old buddy the illusionist off the bench as well.
> 
> There's more, of course, as I mentioned above--new paragon paths, new rituals, new feats--but the races and classes represent the true beating heart of the Advanced Player's Guide, the reason for its existence. I hope you're at least half as excited to play them, moving into the game's new era, as I was to design them.




Ah, seeing Orcus' enthusiasm back then... 

Cheers, LT.


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## Umbran (Aug 2, 2008)

BryonD said:


> It is simple.  WotC had no involvement.





Everyone is welcome to have opinions, but you should all be aware that nigh-contentless negativity that is tangential or unrelated to the real topic at hand is classified as "threadcrapping", and we discourage it, because it tends to start arguments.  This is not a "Bash on WotC" thread - if you want to complain about WotC, do it in a reasoned manner, in some other thread.  Don't laden this good news with extraneous nastiness, please.


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## amethal (Aug 2, 2008)

I'm really pleased for everybody involved.

And its great to see a thread which is universally happy. Or almost, anyway.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 2, 2008)

No chance of PDF first through Lion's Den and print somewhere else?


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## SavageRobby (Aug 2, 2008)

It is indeed nice to see some good news. And that is pretty darn classy of Clark, all things considered. Congrats, Ari. I know its not the books, but I hope that takes some of the sting out of it.


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## davethegame (Aug 2, 2008)

So... this will be published by Gen Con, right?


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## PatrickLawinger (Aug 2, 2008)

*Give it Time*

Hey guys, give Ari a break and some room to maneuver here. Finding a publisher to take a completed manuscript and get it published in a short period of time isn't a trivial pursuit. This is the type of book that is going to require a lot of artwork and good layout to enhance its usability and sales. These things take time. Advertising to the distributors also takes time. 

While it would be fantastic to see this book out in October, you have to realize that this is highly unlikely. If it does come out (in print) in October you'll probably have to order direct from the publisher to get it (I am pretty sure any window to get something into distribution for October is long past).

Please give Ari time to find another publisher, and then please be patient with that publisher and give them time to give you the best product possible. Those of you that know Ari will also know that he wants to put out the best book(s) possible.

Patrick


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## Halivar (Aug 2, 2008)

The only 3PP product I ever bought was the Privateer Press IK stuff (which I purchased enthusiastically) because I generally have a policy of not purchasing 3PP content. Just not very interested.

I'm totally making an exception for this. I want this book, not only because it has crunch I want to see (and use! Illusionists, hooray!), but because I'd like to see 4E 3PP content succeed to show others it can happen.

PS: Artwork? Pshaw! We don't need no steenking artwork! Put it in an ASCII text file, and I'll buy it!


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## Zaukrie (Aug 2, 2008)

Ari and Clark: this is the book I was looking forward to purchasing most this fall. Of all the gaming books announced, this is the one I wanted. I hope it see print.

Clark: classy move.
Ari: I hope you find someone to print it.

I'm still sad that we aren't getting Necro products any time soon for 4E.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 2, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> No chance of PDF first through Lion's Den and print somewhere else?




'fraid not. Not only is LDP not yet 4E-compliant, legally, but it's the art and layout, more than the printing, that are going to eat up the time (and initial costs).


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 2, 2008)

PatrickLawinger said:


> Hey guys, give Ari a break and some room to maneuver here. Finding a publisher to take a completed manuscript and get it published in a short period of time isn't a trivial pursuit. This is the type of book that is going to require a lot of artwork and good layout to enhance its usability and sales. These things take time. Advertising to the distributors also takes time.




Thanks, Patrick. 

That said, I do have something working. I don't want to say anything prematurely--nothing's solid, and there are still 1,001 things that can go wrong--but I _may_ be in a position to make an announcement a little sooner than anyone expected.


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## Roland55 (Aug 2, 2008)

This is good news ... and nothing BUT good news. 

I'm having some personal problems (I think) with 4E -- not getting the instant "fun" I've always had from every D&D Edition.

That will not stop me from picking up this book.  That's how good Mr. Marmell's work is, every time.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Aug 3, 2008)

To Clark and Ari, my most sincere admiration and respect.

You are not only top notch designers, but intelligent and caring people as well.

I will be buying the APG as soon as it comes out.


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## Ghostwind (Aug 3, 2008)

Good luck, Ari. I hope you get paid what you're worth for it.


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## doctorhook (Aug 3, 2008)

Honestly, this is the first I've heard of this product. I don't usually follow 3PP stuff, nor have I ever spent money on any. But I've liked a lot of the stuff Mr Ari Marmell has written for WotC. (_The Sinister Spire_ was an awesome adventure!)

I think I'm going to buy this "Advanced Players Guide". Ari seems like a nice guy!


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 4, 2008)

Good (and surprisingly rapid) news announcement forthcoming in the near future.


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## jgbrowning (Aug 4, 2008)

Thought everyone would be interested to know that Expeditious Retreat Press has executed a contract with the esteemed Mr. Marmell and we'll be bringing the Advanced Player's Guide to print. We're aiming for an October release. Ari's familiarity and experience with the rules system, along with his clean and evocative style will be an asset for anyone playing 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons. We'd always wanted to work with Ari before, but the opportunity had never arisen, so we're excited to finally see an idea to fruition.

Exciting, and busy, times. 

Joseph Browning
Expeditious Retreat Press


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## Crothian (Aug 4, 2008)

Awesome, I'm very much looking forward to see this.


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## jaldaen (Aug 4, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Thought everyone would be interested to know that Expeditious Retreat Press has executed a contract with the esteemed Mr. Marmell and we'll be bringing the Advanced Player's Guide to print. We're aiming for an October release.




Awesome! Congrats to both of you!



> Exciting, and busy, times.




Yes, they are


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 4, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Thought everyone would be interested to know that Expeditious Retreat Press has executed a contract with the esteemed Mr. Marmell and we'll be bringing the Advanced Player's Guide to print. We're aiming for an October release. Ari's familiarity and experience with the rules system, along with his clean and evocative style will be an asset for anyone playing 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons. We'd always wanted to work with Ari before, but the opportunity had never arisen, so we're excited to finally see an idea to fruition.



Awesome.

And you know, on the speed to market issue, given the old school tone of the product, going with woodcuts and the like as you did with the original version of A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe would be perfectly appropriate (assuming you could find a few gnomes and half-orcs, or rather things that would pass for them).

Let us know when we can preorder.


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## Darrin Drader (Aug 4, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Good (and surprisingly rapid) news announcement forthcoming in the near future.




So did the various publishers who are willing to use the GSL get into a bidding war, or did you take the first offer that came your way? I'd imagine that there are about three parties right now who would be willing to pay well for the right to publish this book.


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## MacMathan (Aug 4, 2008)

That is great news, sign me up for a pre-order. 

I know some players who will be very happy once this is out.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 4, 2008)

Darrin Drader said:


> So did the various publishers who are willing to use the GSL get into a bidding war, or did you take the first offer that came your way? I'd imagine that there are about three parties right now who would be willing to pay well for the right to publish this book.




There might well be, and maybe I could've gotten a bigger deal with a bidding war. But no, Expeditious Retreat made me the first offer, and I went with it.

I like Joe and Suzi. I respect them professionally, and we've hung out socially. It wouldn't have felt at all right, once they made me a reasonable offer, to turn around and tell them "I'm going to try to find something better."

Plus, I've been looking for the chance to work with them for a while, anyway.


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## phloog (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm confused  - wasn't this book meant to cover things like Bards, barbarians and such...and weren't many of those things set to be included in PHB2, making you in dangerous competition?  (maybe I'm thinking of another book)


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 4, 2008)

phloog said:


> I'm confused  - wasn't this book meant to cover things like Bards, barbarians and such...and weren't many of those things set to be included in PHB2, making you in dangerous competition?  (maybe I'm thinking of another book)




No, that's this book. But...

A) It's coming out almost half a year before the PHB2.

B) I deliberately designed the classes to go in a different direction than (as far as we know) WotC is going with their versions. For instance, WotC's druid (according to _Races and Classes_) focuses primarily on shapeshifting. So I created a class that focuses primarily on natural spells. The idea being, even when both versions are out, they both fill different niches and can function in the same campaign, or even the same party. 

Also, I've tried to design mine more in-line with older-edition versions, to make converting old campaigns easier.


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## jgbrowning (Aug 4, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Let us know when we can preorder.




Once we send the file to the printers we'll open up pre-orders. Once that milestone is reached it's highly unlikely that anything can pop-up delaying the process. As soon as we can, we'll set up a pre-order system for the APG.



Darrin Drader said:


> So did the various publishers who are willing to use the GSL get into a bidding war, or did you take the first offer that came your way? I'd imagine that there are about three parties right now who would be willing to pay well for the right to publish this book.




It was very much a "Two man enter, One man leaves!" situation, but once I got that old chainsaw working things went quickly... 

joe b.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 4, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> It was very much a "Two man enter, One man leaves!" situation, but once I got that old chainsaw working things went quickly...




You weren't supposed to tell anyone about that until _after_ I borrowed the chainsaw to go "talk to" Uwe Boll...


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## jgbrowning (Aug 4, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> There might well be, and maybe I could've gotten a bigger deal with a bidding war. But no, Expeditious Retreat made me the first offer, and I went with it.
> 
> I like Joe and Suzi. I respect them professionally, and we've hung out socially. It wouldn't have felt at all right, once they made me a reasonable offer, to turn around and tell them "I'm going to try to find something better."
> 
> Plus, I've been looking for the chance to work with them for a while, anyway.




Dammit! My story had chainsaws! That's so much cooler... 

But seriously, I know we'd been trying to find a way to work together for several years now but nothing ever fell into place. When I saw your announcement is just seemed like the time had come.

joe b.


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## The Little Raven (Aug 4, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> B) I deliberately designed the classes to go in a different direction than (as far as we know) WotC is going with their versions. For instance, WotC's druid (according to _Races and Classes_) focuses primarily on shapeshifting. So I created a class that focuses primarily on natural spells. The idea being, even when both versions are out, they both fill different niches and can function in the same campaign, or even the same party.




Are they named in such a way as to avoid issues when the official versions are released? From what I understand, having the same name as something but defining it entirely differently is a no-no.


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## Darrin Drader (Aug 4, 2008)

Wow, that's a huge score for Expeditious Retreat. Congrats!


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 4, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> Are they named in such a way as to avoid issues when the official versions are released? From what I understand, having the same name as something but defining it entirely differently is a no-no.




We've addressed that.


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## thundershot (Aug 4, 2008)

Oh good... I was worried about that issue as well. So they should be able to safely stand side-by-side with the WotC classes.

Are you allowed to use the other power sources before WotC? After all, they're all mentioned in the PHB... Just wondering if you did...

Oh, and I'm keeping an eye out for preorders. I'll be all over it....


Chris


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## SavageRobby (Aug 4, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Thought everyone would be interested to know that Expeditious Retreat Press has executed a contract with the esteemed Mr. Marmell and we'll be bringing the Advanced Player's Guide to print. We're aiming for an October release. Ari's familiarity and experience with the rules system, along with his clean and evocative style will be an asset for anyone playing 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons. We'd always wanted to work with Ari before, but the opportunity had never arisen, so we're excited to finally see an idea to fruition.
> 
> Exciting, and busy, times.
> 
> ...





I'm not a big 4th edition guy (heck, I'm not even a little 4e guy), but that is some cool news. Sounds like a definite win-win situation. Congrats to you both.


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## The Little Raven (Aug 4, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> We've addressed that.




Looks like I'm buying my first-ever Expeditious Retreat product. I wanna see what this hip Marmell ca...errr mouse can do.


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## Treebore (Aug 4, 2008)

As a big fan of XRP and Ari I am very glad to hear this.

I also agree Joe and Suzi are good people. When my daughter and I spoke with them at GenCon 06 I got HUGE "good people" vibes off of them.

Plus they do great gaming stuff, with their Silk Road and MMS: WE being my favorites.


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## jaldaen (Aug 4, 2008)

Treebore said:


> I also agree Joe and Suzi are good people. When my daughter and I spoke with them at GenCon 06 I got HUGE "good people" vibes off of them.




Having been in a similar situation as Ari... I can also say they are definately "good people" as both friends and publishers


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## JVisgaitis (Aug 4, 2008)

Sweetness! Does this mean more 4e from XRP, or is this a one shot deal?


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## thundershot (Aug 4, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> Sweetness! Does this mean more 4e from XRP, or is this a one shot deal?




Oooo.. I didn't even think of that.


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## DaveMage (Aug 4, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> Sweetness! Does this mean more 4e from XRP, or is this a one shot deal?




XRP has already announced a 4th edition line.


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## WhatGravitas (Aug 5, 2008)

I like the news! Looking forward to it, indeed!

Cheers, LT.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 5, 2008)

Congratulations!

I didn't see this. Apologies if I missed it. Will this be pdf-only, Lulu (or other PoD vendor), softcover, hardcover or printed on leaves from Borneo?


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## racoffin (Aug 5, 2008)

Good news indeed. Congrats to Ari and XRP.


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## VictorC (Aug 5, 2008)

Congratulations, everybody wins (especially me).


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## jgbrowning (Aug 5, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> XRP has already announced a 4th edition line.




Besides Lands of Darkness, we have another 4e product planned about the Plague. We're getting the cover together and should have a preview of it shortly.



Varianor Abroad said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> I didn't see this. Apologies if I missed it. Will this be pdf-only, Lulu (or other PoD vendor), softcover, hardcover or printed on leaves from Borneo?




It'll be softcover, shooting for 128 pages, but that may change as this will be our first layout with the new 4e powers which could result in unexpected pagination results - we'll have to see. It will also be available in PDF form for those who prefer that medium.

joe b.


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## carmachu (Aug 5, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Awesome move by Clark. Good karma there.
> 
> Sign me up for a preorder. I'd prefer a hardcover, if possible. I paid for the full-color hardcover Empire of the Ghouls from Lulu, so you've got at least one person willing to drop real cash on this if need be, and I doubt I'm alone.




link for that? I'm curious


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## Merlin the Tuna (Aug 5, 2008)

VictorC said:


> Congratulations, everybody wins (especially me).



Everybody except Clark. 

But it's good to hear that this is making it to press.  Congrats.


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## Zaukrie (Aug 5, 2008)

Wow. This is great news. I'm waiting for the pre-order....


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## JeffB (Aug 5, 2008)

I knew it would only be a short period of time before someone picked this up!  Awesome news! 

Thank You Mr. Browning, and Congrats again Ari! Looks like I'll be buying my first product by either of you!


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## Ghostwind (Aug 5, 2008)

Congratulations Joe and Ari. I'll be buying this for certain.


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## mach1.9pants (Aug 5, 2008)

Excellent news for us and the mouse. looking forward to getting it


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## Malcor Sylverwood (Aug 5, 2008)

I don't as a habit pick up third party stuff (or post for that matter), but I think I'll preorder this as soon as its available...


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 5, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> Looks like I'm buying my first-ever Expeditious Retreat product. I wanna see what this hip Marmell ca...errr mouse can do.



Get Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe. It's one of the best things ever published for D20/OGL. If I were in charge of WotC, it'd make up a substantial portion of the DMG, or certainly DMG2.



carmachu said:


> link for that? I'm curious



No such link for non-patrons. It was one of Wolfgang Baur's Open Design projects. (And it's good enough to jump in on a later project just to have a chance to buy this one.)


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## amethal (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm in the opposite position of some of you guys - I own a lot of Expeditious Retreat books, but probably won't be getting this one as I'm unlikely to switch to 4th edition anytime soon.

However, I'm really glad for everyone else. It would have been such a shame if this book had died.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 5, 2008)

Let's hope that Dragonworld or amazon.de will have some copies available, too!


----------



## Allensh (Aug 5, 2008)

This announcement is full of epic (not heroic or Paragon) win.

Allen


----------



## Protagonist (Aug 5, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Let's hope that Dragonworld or amazon.de will have some copies available, too!



 Dito!
But with a law  changing in december, ordering stuff from the USA will at least become more worthwhile.
(http://www.pcwelt.de/start/dsl_voip...ertgrenze_fuer_kleinsendungen_wird_angehoben/)


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 5, 2008)

Protagonist said:


> Dito!
> But with a law  changing in december, ordering stuff from the USA will at least become more worthwhile.
> (http://www.pcwelt.de/start/dsl_voip...ertgrenze_fuer_kleinsendungen_wird_angehoben/)




Interesting!



> DMG-p.42: The answer to the 4E question.



Reading it phrased this way - How hard did the editors work to get the table on page 42?


----------



## WhatGravitas (Aug 5, 2008)

Protagonist said:


> Dito!
> But with a law  changing in december, ordering stuff from the USA will at least become more worthwhile.
> (http://www.pcwelt.de/start/dsl_voip...ertgrenze_fuer_kleinsendungen_wird_angehoben/)



Oh, cool! 

Cheers, LT.


----------



## meomwt (Aug 5, 2008)

VictorC said:


> Congratulations, everybody wins (especially me).






Merlin the Tuna said:


> Everybody except Clark.




No, no: this is *Orcus* we're talking about. He'll be winning on this deal too, somehow 

Congrats on getting a deal tied up. Whilst not into 4E, I've enjoyed Ari's other work, and I'm glad to see him winning here.


----------



## vagabundo (Aug 5, 2008)

Do you guys ship to Europa?

Will the the hardcopy be sold on something like Amazon?


----------



## Protagonist (Aug 5, 2008)

vagabundo said:


> Do you guys ship to Europa?
> 
> Will the the hardcopy be sold on something like Amazon?




at least some  expeditious retreat press products ( a magical medieval society etc.) are avaiable via dragonworld.de and other online shops  so I think it is likely that the APG will be available *somewhere* in Europe.


----------



## jgbrowning (Aug 5, 2008)

Protagonist said:


> at least some  expeditious retreat press products ( a magical medieval society etc.) are avaiable via dragonworld.de and other online shops  so I think it is likely that the APG will be available *somewhere* in Europe.




We ship to Europe via our website purchases (sent some product off to Germany yesterday) and we should be available in gamestores in Europe if they want to order from their distributors. Pretty much anywhere in the world you should be able to at least get a gamestore to special order XRP product.

joe b.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 5, 2008)

vagabundo said:


> Do you guys ship to Europa?



They can't. 



			
				Dave Bowman said:
			
		

> "ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA. ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE."


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 5, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> They can't.







Spoiler



I have to write something here, otherwise I am not allowed to post.


----------



## Rechan (Aug 6, 2008)

I can only assume this will be in PDF form too?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Aug 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I can only assume this will be in PDF form too?






jgbrowning said:


> It'll be softcover, shooting for 128 pages, but that may change as this will be our first layout with the new 4e powers which could result in unexpected pagination results - we'll have to see. *It will also be available in PDF form for those who prefer that medium.*




See above.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Aug 6, 2008)

Ari,

That's amazingly good news.  This is the sole product that made me think 4e could be "done right".  When it was announced, I was hoping that we'd end up seeing it.  I'm glad Clark is such a classy guy.  And, of course, my opinion of you has always been high.

RC


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## thundershot (Aug 6, 2008)

No pressure on the guy.... Man.. 


What *I* expect is a book that I can use alongside my core books (including the ones next year) that won't step on the toes of the other races and classes.

What DID you call Halflings if you couldn't use "Halfling"? Though in my campaign, I'll call them Hobbits. I've already got Halflings. 



Chris


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## vagabundo (Aug 6, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> We ship to Europe via our website purchases (sent some product off to Germany yesterday) and we should be available in gamestores in Europe if they want to order from their distributors. Pretty much anywhere in the world you should be able to at least get a gamestore to special order XRP product.
> 
> joe b.




Good news! Roll on Oct...


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## Protagonist (Aug 6, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> We ship to Europe via our website purchases (sent some product off to Germany yesterday) and we should be available in gamestores in Europe if they want to order from their distributors. Pretty much anywhere in the world you should be able to at least get a gamestore to special order XRP product.
> 
> joe b.




That's great to hear. I'll try and order directly from you then.


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## jgbrowning (Aug 6, 2008)

thundershot said:


> What *I* expect is a book that I can use alongside my core books (including the ones next year) that won't step on the toes of the other races and classes.
> 
> What DID you call Halflings if you couldn't use "Halfling"? Though in my campaign, I'll call them Hobbits. I've already got Halflings.




That's what we're aiming for - a book that complements what WotC will officially do with the archetypes by providing different flavors for 4e players.

Shire Halflings
_Shire halflings are cousins of the more well known halfling race—more closely related than, say, elves and eladrin, but still boasting their share of racial differences. Where other halflings are nomadic traders and river-travelers, shire halflings prefer lives of homey comfort, and view the notion of adventuring with something akin to horror. Yet some of them possess the same wanderlust as their nomadic cousins, a need that drives them, despite their “better judgment,” to take up an adventuring lifestyle, at least for a time._

The fruit falls close to the tree on this one. 

joe b.


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## Zaukrie (Aug 6, 2008)

Shire Halflings....

Ok, preview 1 is a home run.


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## Darkwolf71 (Aug 6, 2008)

Clark, you rock. 

Ari and ERP, great for you guys. I don't know that I have any Expeditious books in my collection, but this has been on my 'must have' list since it was announced, so I will come October.


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## thundershot (Aug 6, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> That's what we're aiming for - a book that complements what WotC will officially do with the archetypes by providing different flavors for 4e players.
> 
> Shire Halflings
> _Shire halflings are cousins of the more well known halfling race—more closely related than, say, elves and eladrin, but still boasting their share of racial differences. Where other halflings are nomadic traders and river-travelers, shire halflings prefer lives of homey comfort, and view the notion of adventuring with something akin to horror. Yet some of them possess the same wanderlust as their nomadic cousins, a need that drives them, despite their “better judgment,” to take up an adventuring lifestyle, at least for a time._
> ...





Wow! Glad I managed to inspire a "sneak preview". Too bad they're being viewed more as a sub-race than the elf/eladrin/drow path. I'll more than likely call them hobbits and take that route...

Thanks!
Chris


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## TerraDave (Aug 6, 2008)

XRP plus APG is like rolling


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## Rechan (Aug 6, 2008)

I'm curious if this still has the 0 level PCs in it. Not that I'd use it, but I can't remember if that was Clark's designing or Ari's.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I'm curious if this still has the 0 level PCs in it. Not that I'd use it, but I can't remember if that was Clark's designing or Ari's.




That was Clark's, honestly. I'm not opposed to the idea, but it's not something I'd planned to include myself.


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## cangrejoide (Aug 7, 2008)

TerraDave said:


> XRP plus APG is like rolling





You do know that is the worst roll if you play an Angel in InNomine?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Aug 7, 2008)

thundershot said:


> I'll more than likely call them hobbits and take that route...




Feel free.  I'd have done so myself, but there's those pesky laws to consider...


----------



## ProfessorCirno (Aug 7, 2008)

Good to see you got stuff straightened away.  Despite not liking 4e, I myself might buy it and take a look around to see what you're doing and how you're doing it; maybe I could cannibalize something for my own games


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## tsadkiel (Aug 7, 2008)

Question that y'all probably can't answer yet, but which I'll ask anyway - Power sources?  Just Arcane, Divine, and Martial, or will there be new ones?

(I'm actually hoping for just the PHB sources.)


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 7, 2008)

tsadkiel said:


> Question that y'all probably can't answer yet, but which I'll ask anyway - Power sources?  Just Arcane, Divine, and Martial, or will there be new ones?
> 
> (I'm actually hoping for just the PHB sources.)




I don't think Joe would mind me telling you that you, personally, are going to be happy. 

Rather than try to create our own versions of new power sources--especially since we're going somewhat "old school" in some of our interpretations--it made more sense to fit the classes into the three existing, and arguably most "classic," power sources.


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## Lackhand (Aug 7, 2008)

... can I get you another can of soda? Foot rub? expedited delivery to the printers? Celebratory cigar?

Just tell us when + where to preorder


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## Rechan (Aug 7, 2008)

Ari, is there New stuff in this, or is it just Conversions "Old skewl"?


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 7, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Ari, is there New stuff in this, or is it just Conversions "Old skewl"?




The overwhelming bulk is conversion, since that was the design mandate--to "fill in some of the major gaps" left from prior editions. So, for instance, the races and classes are all conversions, albeit with 4E mechanics fully in mind.

But some individual powers, paragon paths, and other options, while designed to fit _aesthetically _with the converted stuff, are new in terms of specific details.

And it's important to note that "conversion" doesn't mean "everything but the mechanics is _exactly _the same." That doesn't always work, obviously. So for instance, our nature priest isn't _exactly_ the druid of 1E, 2E, or 3E. Rather, it's a 4E class designed to incorporate as much of the feeling, mood, and aesthetic of the past versions.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 7, 2008)

Gnome or illusionist previews next, please.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 7, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Gnome or illusionist previews next, please.




So you don't buy it and just steal it from the internets?!


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 7, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Gnome or illusionist previews next, please.




No promises, but I'll talk to Joe and Suzi at GenCon about what we'll be previewing and when.


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## Mercule (Aug 7, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> The overwhelming bulk is conversion, since that was the design mandate--to "fill in some of the major gaps" left from prior editions. So, for instance, the races and classes are all conversions, albeit with 4E mechanics fully in mind.



So, just how "old skool" is the druid?  I've always been a fan of the flavor from the 1e Heirophant.

I expect to pick up this book, regardless.  If nothing else, shape-shifting isn't really what I'd whittle the druid down to.


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## Vayden (Aug 7, 2008)

Put me down for a pre-order as soon as possible. I've got a player who would kill for a "nature-themed caster" druid - I think she wild-shaped twice in 9 levels in our 3.5 campaign before we converted.


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## cangrejoide (Aug 8, 2008)

Sorry if this has been asked before:

But when is the release date for this?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Aug 8, 2008)

cangrejoide said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before:
> 
> But when is the release date for this?




Joe said that he's pretty sure an October release date is "possible," though we're not 100% certain yet.


----------



## Vael (Aug 8, 2008)

Just out of curiousity, what are your ideas for the Sorcerer? Since the 4e change, a lot of the differences between the wizard and sorcerer are gone.


----------



## JeffB (Aug 8, 2008)

Can we order this yet? 

Can we order this yet? 

Can we order this yet?


----------



## VictorC (Aug 8, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Joe said that he's pretty sure an October release date is "possible," though we're not 100% certain yet.





Do we have an ISBN yet or are we still waiting on that?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Aug 8, 2008)

Vael said:


> Just out of curiousity, what are your ideas for the Sorcerer? Since the 4e change, a lot of the differences between the wizard and sorcerer are gone.




Heh. I had a number of ideas, none of which felt right.  Thankfully, since--as you point out--converting sorcerers to 4E is _really_ easy (just make them wizards), and since sorcerers don't have a pedigree in older editions the way the other classes did, we didn't feel constrained to include them.

See, unlike the other classes, who had schticks that we could bring into 4E to fill an existing gap, the sorcerer's "gap" is already filled. Again, the wizard does it. So we'd have had to make up a brand new class, and what would be the point in that in a book intended to bring old options into the new edition?

So yeah, I'm kinda stumped on the sorcerer. I'm interested in seeing what WotC does with it.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Aug 8, 2008)

VictorC said:


> Do we have an ISBN yet or are we still waiting on that?




Urf. That, I haven't the _slightest_ idea. Entirely Joe's department, this is.


----------



## Jack99 (Aug 8, 2008)

First of all, that was very classy of Clark/Orcus.

Second of all, grats to Ari and Joseph Browning/Expeditious Retreat Press.

Third. I just got back from 2 weeks on Crete (with no I-net), so someone fill me in. Did Necro ditch 4e entirely or just the APG?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Aug 8, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Second of all, grats to Ari and Joseph Browning/Expeditious Retreat Press.




Thanks. 



> Third. I just got back from 2 weeks on Crete (with no I-net), so someone fill me in. Did Necro ditch 4e entirely or just the APG?




Clark's not happy with certain aspects of the GSL. He's working with WotC, trying to get certain details clarified before he goes forward. He still hopes to take Necromancer 4E, but it likely won't be for a little while yet, even assuming it happens.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 8, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Clark's not happy with certain aspects of the GSL. He's working with WotC, trying to get certain details clarified before he goes forward. He still hopes to take Necromancer 4E, but it likely won't be for a little while yet, even assuming it happens.




What I wonder about (I don't expect you to know or talk about it): Is Clark working with WotC, or is Clark working WotC? Or in other words - do they actually respond to him, or is he just firing off emails? 

Because I wonder if WotC is willing to change the license if enough comments have been made, or if it's just us hoping they might with no evidence to it?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Aug 8, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> What I wonder about (I don't expect you to know or talk about it): Is Clark working with WotC, or is Clark working WotC? Or in other words - do they actually respond to him, or is he just firing off emails?




You're right; I don't know.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 8, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> You're right; I don't know.




Let's do what I always do - prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


----------



## vagabundo (Aug 8, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Let's do what we always day - prepare for the worst, hope for the best.




We also make up crazy conspiracy theories. Lets do that too...


----------



## jgbrowning (Aug 8, 2008)

VictorC said:


> Do we have an ISBN yet or are we still waiting on that?




We've assigned it one from our list, but haven't made a bar code or done any of the cover design.

joe b.


----------



## Jack99 (Aug 8, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Clark's not happy with certain aspects of the GSL. He's working with WotC, trying to get certain details clarified before he goes forward. He still hopes to take Necromancer 4E, but it likely won't be for a little while yet, even assuming it happens.




Ah well it looks as my 3PP money will be going to XRP and GG for now.


Clark, if you are reading this, keep up the fight. I think that I speak for a lot of people, when I say that we want 4e Necro products, but we understand and respect why you aren't happy with the GSL.

Cheers


----------



## Orcus (Aug 8, 2008)

Jack, thanks for the encouragement. 

I have the luxury of being a fan of D&D first and a game company owner second. Its a nice position to be in. I firmly believe 3P support is crucial to the long term success of D&D as a game. I will continue to work with Wizards. I am optimistic. I have had good dialogue with them. We'll see what happens.

Clark


----------



## StickPerson (Aug 8, 2008)

Orcus said:


> Jack, thanks for the encouragement.
> 
> I have the luxury of being a fan of D&D first and a game company owner second. Its a nice position to be in. I firmly believe 3P support is crucial to the long term success of D&D as a game. I will continue to work with Wizards. I am optimistic. I have had good dialogue with them. We'll see what happens.
> 
> Clark




I hope things go well with the dialogue you're having with Wizards.  I was looking forward to Necromancer's Iron Tower adventure path and Tome of Horrors almost as much as I was the advanced players guide.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Aug 8, 2008)

Orcus said:


> Jack, thanks for the encouragement.
> 
> I have the luxury of being a fan of D&D first and a game company owner second. Its a nice position to be in. I firmly believe 3P support is crucial to the long term success of D&D as a game. I will continue to work with Wizards. I am optimistic. I have had good dialogue with them. We'll see what happens.
> 
> Clark




Good luck, Clark!

Work things out with WotC, and when you do, I'll be one of the first to preorder the new Tome of Horrors!


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 8, 2008)

Orcus said:


> Jack, thanks for the encouragement.
> 
> I have the luxury of being a fan of D&D first and a game company owner second. Its a nice position to be in. I firmly believe 3P support is crucial to the long term success of D&D as a game. I will continue to work with Wizards. I am optimistic. I have had good dialogue with them. We'll see what happens.
> 
> Clark




Let me say, I'm not the biggest Necro fan, though I know plenty, but I am an Ari fan, so thanks for helping this product!

I don't think 3P support is crucial to the success of D&D, but I do think when done well, it contributes to the overall community spirit of D&D. 3P guys like yourself are great for forming cults (Cult of Orcus...) and your personal following has soured a lot on WotC as you went away from comfortable with the GSL. Same way the PaizoFans rally to Pathfinder or the Ronin Fans head to his banner.

In the final days of 3.5, there was a definite shift in the spirit of the fanbase (at least on ENWorld) towards viewing WotC as the faceless corporation (ala the T$R days) and the GSL is pushing it further. I didn't like those days much, and hope that WotC realizes they can make just as much (if not more) money with a good community feel as with a mercenary one. They are slow to react due to their corporate layers, and they need 3P cheerleaders for more than just product support...

Hopefully that made some sense. 
(And I didn't fork it because I don't feel like discussing it point by point with the ENSharks, so sidetrack over!)


----------



## Mouseferatu (Aug 10, 2008)

StickPerson said:


> I hope things go well with the dialogue you're having with Wizards.  I was looking forward to Necromancer's Iron Tower adventure path and Tome of Horrors almost as much as I was the advanced players guide.




This. Heck, I was hoping to _contribute_ to _Tome of Horrors 4E_. (And will still happily do so, to any 4E monster book Necro might eventually do.)


----------



## Henrix (Aug 10, 2008)

I hope things work out with Wizards, Orcus! (By the Abyss, what I really hope is that you get WotCo to change the GSL!)

You deserve better terms than the current GSL. This has confirmed that.



I hope this works out to the benefit of all involved - I dare say XRP has already gained by this, and I hope it gets better for Necromancer, all other 3pps, freelancers (not least Ari).


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 2, 2008)

For those who want more of a preview--or are ready to pre-order--Joe's announced both here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=240007


----------



## mach1.9pants (Sep 2, 2008)

Excellent! Pre-ordered and looking forward to it.....more 3P stuff please


----------



## Plane Sailing (Sep 2, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> For those who want more of a preview--or are ready to pre-order--Joe's announced both here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=240007




Interesting preview, I'll have to take a look at it.

Glancing down the powers, are there really two powers called "Deadly Dodge"?



> Deadly Dodge.....................................15
> Deadly Dodge.................................... 55




Cheers


----------



## jgbrowning (Sep 2, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Interesting preview, I'll have to take a look at it.
> 
> Glancing down the powers, are there really two powers called "Deadly Dodge"?
> 
> Cheers




It's the same power in two different locations. We should have recorded them as one power with two locations like Discordant Hallucinations and Distant Eyes.

joe b.


----------



## Phaezen (Sep 2, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> So yeah, I'm kinda stumped on the sorcerer. I'm interested in seeing what WotC does with it.




I though I saw some reference of them being more along the lines of "wild mages" with barely controlled powers and residual effects.

edit: page 85 of Races & Classes

Phaezen


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 3, 2008)

Phaezen said:


> I though I saw some reference of them being more along the lines of "wild mages" with barely controlled powers and residual effects.




Interesting. I'd seen that, but I'd forgotten it. Looking forward to seeing what they do. 

But yeah, definitely not something that screams "first edition feel."


----------



## Plane Sailing (Sep 3, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> It's the same power in two different locations. We should have recorded them as one power with two locations like Discordant Hallucinations and Distant Eyes.
> 
> joe b.




OK, cool.


----------



## Spatula (Sep 4, 2008)

Very interested in seeing more than just the TOC of this... is there a problem with the current state of the GSL that keeps us from seeing a few powers as a preview?

Also, am I right in thinking that the shire halfling is an old style hobbit-like halfling?  If so, that ratchets up my interest a few more notches.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 4, 2008)

Spatula said:


> Very interested in seeing more than just the TOC of this... is there a problem with the current state of the GSL that keeps us from seeing a few powers as a preview?




More previews are forthcoming. 



> Also, am I right in thinking that the shire halfling is an old style hobbit-like halfling?  If so, that ratchets up my interest a few more notches.




I wouldn't bet against it.


----------



## Spatula (Sep 4, 2008)

Good to hear!  Looking forward to the future previews.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 8, 2008)

Second preview is up, guys.  It includes all the material from preview #1, plus a brand new race write-up.

http://www.yourgamesnow.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2391


----------



## Spatula (Sep 8, 2008)

Neat.  I likes, although I question the game balance of giving the halflings a base move of 5.  A speed of 4 (in heavy armor) is really, really limiting.  Their cousins the acrobat-halflings have a speed of 6, so if you can swallow that...

Just a note, last sentence in Keep on Going should be "your stamina (...) _allows_ you to..." instead of "allow."  Also, Unending Determintation is said to be a daily power in the text and an encounter power in the writeup.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 8, 2008)

It would be really cool if I didn't have to log into yet another site to get the previews....


----------



## Vocenoctum (Sep 8, 2008)

Yeah, is there anyway to get it without registering?


----------



## tsadkiel (Sep 8, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Second preview is up, guys.  It includes all the material from preview #1, plus a brand new race write-up.
> 
> http://www.yourgamesnow.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2391




Neat.  And just in time - I'll be playing a shire halfling warlock in the game starting this week.


----------



## jgbrowning (Sep 8, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:


> Yeah, is there anyway to get it without registering?




No. We favor Your Games Now to distribute our electronic products, be they for free or for pay.

joe b.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 16, 2008)

Preview #3 is now available. It includes the entirety of the prior previews, plus most of the non-powers text of the drui--ahem, "nature priest" class. 

Find it here: Advanced Player's Guide Preview #3 [APGPreview3] - It's Free! : Your Games Now, Publisher Co-Op


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 16, 2008)

Coool. 

I'm really glad to see the druid back. Uh...I mean nature priest. 

EDIT:  Mouse, do powers go all the way through Epic or stop after Paragon?


----------



## Spatula (Sep 16, 2008)

Divine Controller, woo!  Does the nature priest have any minor healing abilities?

But, no scimitar proficiency?


----------



## Ventifus (Sep 17, 2008)

Just downloaded the preview, looks awesome! Can't wait to see how a conjurer druid plays.

I do have a small quibble too: the shire halfling's Unerring Determination is a "Free Reaction". Surely it's supposed to be a "Free Action" like Elven Accuracy.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 17, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> Coool.
> 
> I'm really glad to see the druid back. Uh...I mean nature priest.
> 
> EDIT:  Mouse, do powers go all the way through Epic or stop after Paragon?




All the way. These classes are as complete as those in the PHB.



Spatula said:


> Divine Controller, woo!  Does the nature priest have any minor healing abilities?
> 
> But, no scimitar proficiency?




A very few, yes. Mmmm-mmm, those are some really good berries... 

And no, no scimitar. Since the sickle exists as a simple weapon in 4E, and even the creators (IIRC) admitted that the scimitar proficiency was just a nod to the sickle, it didn't seen to make any sense to keep it. 



Ventifus said:


> Just downloaded the preview, looks awesome! Can't wait to see how a conjurer druid plays.
> 
> I do have a small quibble too: the shire halfling's Unerring Determination is a "Free Reaction". Surely it's supposed to be a "Free Action" like Elven Accuracy.




Yeah, it probably should.


----------



## mach1.9pants (Sep 17, 2008)

Great stuff, just waiting for my pre-order to arrive here in sunny NZ


----------



## GMforPowergamers (Sep 17, 2008)

awsomeness...I am more psyced then ever...

That nature priest so far looks to be a runaway hit with my tue night gameing crew.

I have to say mousse you out did yourself...(waiting for my preorder)

anychance preview 4 is mon...I mean martial artest????


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## thundershot (Sep 17, 2008)

Forget the previews. I just want the book in my hands...  The previews are more of a TEASE at this point in the game. Only a couple more weeks...




Chris


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## jgbrowning (Sep 17, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> awsomeness...I am more psyced then ever...
> 
> That nature priest so far looks to be a runaway hit with my tue night gameing crew.
> 
> ...




Preview 4 will include two paragon paths for the Martial Artist as well as all content from Preview 3.

joe b.


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## Shazman (Sep 17, 2008)

Thsi book does contain mutilclass feats for the new classes, right?


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## Halivar (Sep 17, 2008)

Agh! I can't find the APG on YGN to pre-order! Is there a link? All I can find is preview #3.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 17, 2008)

Halivar said:


> Agh! I can't find the APG on YGN to pre-order! Is there a link? All I can find is preview #3.




Sorry, I'll add it to the sales text at YGN. Follow this link to pre-order.

Expeditious Retreat Press 4th Edition D&D Pre-Orders

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 17, 2008)

Shazman said:


> Thsi book does contain mutilclass feats for the new classes, right?




Yes.

joe b.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 17, 2008)

Joe, will there be any kind of policy for other 3rd-parties to to be able to reference the material in the book, such as a campaign setting that would use some of the classes? Not reprint, obviously... more of a "See the *Advanced Player's Guide* from Expeditious Retreat Press for details on the nature priest." type thing.


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## Halivar (Sep 17, 2008)

Boo-yah! I just made my first ever 3PP purchase on that pre-order. I think Mouse and XRP were pretty daring by early-adopting the GSL. I hope they reap rich reward from a gamble many of us 4E fans have been wanting _someone_ to take.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 17, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> Joe, will there be any kind of policy for other 3rd-parties to to be able to reference the material in the book, such as a campaign setting that would use some of the classes? Not reprint, obviously... more of a "See the *Advanced Player's Guide* from Expeditious Retreat Press for details on the nature priest." type thing.




Hrm... we haven't given such a thing much thought, to be honest.

joe b.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 17, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Hrm... we haven't given such a thing much thought, to be honest.




It's something to think about. You can really extend the life of the product by allowing other companies to reference it, thereby pushing some sales your way, while creating connections between 3rd parties.

And as it's a "Player's Guide," I don't expect too much DM material, but are there NPC class templates for each class in the book, too?


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## JesterOC (Sep 17, 2008)

*So....*

So any chance I can order this on Amazon.com?

JesterOC


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## jgbrowning (Sep 17, 2008)

JesterOC said:


> So any chance I can order this on Amazon.com?
> 
> JesterOC




It won't be directly available at Amazon - it may be available through one of the companies that use them as a sales hub, but I don't know if that will happen. Our products go only through the hobby chain to gaming stores.

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 17, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> It's something to think about. You can really extend the life of the product by allowing other companies to reference it, thereby pushing some sales your way, while creating connections between 3rd parties.
> 
> And as it's a "Player's Guide," I don't expect too much DM material, but are there NPC class templates for each class in the book, too?




There are no NPC class templates in the Advanced Player's Guide. There are some in _Plague_, but those are for a plague-oriented situations obviously.

joe b.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 17, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> It's something to think about. You can really extend the life of the product by allowing other companies to reference it, thereby pushing some sales your way, while creating connections between 3rd parties.




Obviously it's Joe's and Suzi's decision, but I'd be all for allowing other people to reference the book. 



> And as it's a "Player's Guide," I don't expect too much DM material, but are there NPC class templates for each class in the book, too?




Nope, but now that you mention it, it wouldn't be a bad idea for a web enhancement, if/when I have a few minutes...


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## VictorC (Sep 17, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> It won't be directly available at Amazon - it may be available through one of the companies that use them as a sales hub, but I don't know if that will happen. Our products go only through the hobby chain to gaming stores.
> 
> joe b.




I guess that means I won't be able to get it at Barns and Noble?


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## jgbrowning (Sep 17, 2008)

VictorC said:


> I guess that means I won't be able to get it at Barns and Noble?




Correct. Only through FLGS, be those of the brick-and-mortar type or online. Direct purchases from our website are another possibility.

joe b.


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## catsclaw227 (Sep 18, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Nope, but now that you mention it, it wouldn't be a bad idea for a web enhancement, if/when I have a few minutes...



It really is a good idea.  I would love to quickly be able to bang out a couple of NPCs based on these classes.


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## catsclaw227 (Sep 18, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Correct. Only through FLGS, be those of the brick-and-mortar type or online. Direct purchases from our website are another possibility.



Will those that direct purchase from your website get a free PDF of the product as well?  [hint, hint]


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## Spatula (Sep 18, 2008)

Not to rain on the promotional value of a web enhancement, but class templates are just the basic class info from the class description.  Choose a proper monster role & 2 trained skills from the class list and you're done.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 18, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Will those that direct purchase from your website get a free PDF of the product as well?  [hint, hint]




We're going to include a coupon in the package with the APG when it ships for $5 off the $12 PDF of the book at Your Games Now. So a discount, but not free.

joe b.


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## Jack99 (Sep 18, 2008)

Another question: When do you guys ship for *Europe*? So we have the book close to October 1st, or will you only start shipping October 1st? I have paid already, but curious about when I can expect it.

Cheers


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## jgbrowning (Sep 18, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Another question: When do you guys ship for *Europe*? So we have the book close to October 1st, or will you only start shipping October 1st? I have paid already, but curious about when I can expect it.
> 
> Cheers




We'll start shipping on Sept 30th to US customers to ensure that no one can get it before the GSL product street date. Non-US customers we'll ship out on the 29th. We would ship earlier, but that's the weekend and were we to ship on the 26th there is a slim chance that someone would receive before the 1st.

joe b.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 18, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> We're going to include a coupon in the package with the APG when it ships for $5 off the $12 PDF of the book at Your Games Now. So a discount, but not free.
> 
> joe b.





Does that mean that if I buy it from my FLGS (who I like to support to keep them in business) that I won't get the coupon?


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## jgbrowning (Sep 18, 2008)

Zaukrie said:


> Does that mean that if I buy it from my FLGS (who I like to support to keep them in business) that I won't get the coupon?




Correct.

joe b.


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## Jack99 (Sep 18, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> We'll start shipping on Sept 30th to US customers to ensure that no one can get it before the GSL product street date. Non-US customers we'll ship out on the 29th. We would ship earlier, but that's the weekend and were we to ship on the 26th there is a slim chance that someone would receive before the 1st.
> 
> joe b.




Thanks for the answer, joe. I am guessing it wouldn't be possible to ship to Europe a bit earlier? After all, there is absolutely no chance of them arriving in 4-5 days. 

Cheers


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## jgbrowning (Sep 18, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Thanks for the answer, joe. I am guessing it wouldn't be possible to ship to Europe a bit earlier? After all, there is absolutely no chance of them arriving in 4-5 days.
> 
> Cheers




I don't think there would be much of a chance, no, but as it is a license requirement I'm hesitant to try and play the ship early game more than just a day or two. Were this just a normal street date I'd try to perfectly time it, but there could be greater consequences for an early delivery that I'm trying hard to avoid.

joe b.


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Sep 19, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Nope, but now that you mention it, it wouldn't be a bad idea for a web enhancement, if/when I have a few minutes...




Well, given how an entire section of this book came to pass, I suppose taking good ideas from the internet is just an APG tradition at this point.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 19, 2008)

OStephens said:


> Well, given how an entire section of this book came to pass, I suppose taking good ideas from the internet is just an APG tradition at this point.




Hey! Don't let on to people that I get ideas from _outside_. It'll ruin my reputation of sheer, misunderstood genius!!!  













What Owen's actually talking about is the section on crafting rules, which came about as the result of an exchange we had in Rob Schwalb's Live Journal.


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## Jack99 (Sep 19, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> I don't think there would be much of a chance, no, but as it is a license requirement I'm hesitant to try and play the ship early game more than just a day or two. Were this just a normal street date I'd try to perfectly time it, but there could be greater consequences for an early delivery that I'm trying hard to avoid.
> 
> joe b.




Of course. I wouldn't want you to play a game of chance with your 4e license. But I felt I had to ask . Thanks for the answers.

Cheers


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## Whitemouse (Sep 19, 2008)

Does anyone know if this is going to be available to purchase at Amazon.com?


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 19, 2008)

Whitemouse said:


> Does anyone know if this is going to be available to purchase at Amazon.com?




See up-thread. 

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4469770-post177.html


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## Whitemouse (Sep 19, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> See up-thread.
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/4469770-post177.html




Unfortunately, I don't have a [F]LGS, that plus I don't trust small online retailers, so I guess I'm screwed. 

Nuts, this was something I was looking forward to.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 19, 2008)

Whitemouse said:


> Unfortunately, I don't have a [F]LGS, that plus I don't trust small online retailers, so I guess I'm screwed.
> 
> Nuts, this was something I was looking forward to.




You can order directly from Expeditious Retreat Press (the publisher), here: 4th Edition D&D


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## Whitemouse (Sep 19, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> You can order directly from Expeditious Retreat Press (the publisher), here: 4th Edition D&D



I would, except I don't trust small online retailers for fear of identity theft.


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Sep 19, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> It'll ruin my reputation of sheer, misunderstood genius!!!




I'm pretty sure your reputation for being misguided is secure. 



Mouseferatu said:


> It'll ruin my reputation of sheer, misunderstood genius!!!



What Owen's actually talking about is the section on crafting rules, which came about as the result of an exchange we had in Rob Schwalb's Live Journal. [/QUOTE]

Which, by the way, is I think the first time I ever got even a small 1-section gig as a result of a blog entry.

Which also got me a sneak look at the book early, which was just as nice as the money.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 19, 2008)

Whitemouse said:


> I would, except I don't trust small online retailers for fear of identity theft.




They take PayPal.


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## Whitemouse (Sep 19, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> They take PayPal.



I've heard too many horror stories about PayPal.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 23, 2008)

Preview 4 is up, including all the prior material plus a couple martial artist paragon paths.

Advanced Player's Guide Preview #4 [APGPreview4] - It's Free! : Your Games Now, Publisher Co-Op


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## Henrix (Sep 23, 2008)

Whitemouse said:


> I would, except I don't trust small online retailers for fear of identity theft.





Whitemouse said:


> I've heard too many horror stories about PayPal.




Relax, dude, the world isn't that dangerous. And, frankly, your identity isn't that much worth to small games companies, nor to Paypal.

Get it from a large online retailer, then, like Noble Knight, they're bound to get it.


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## Wonka (Sep 23, 2008)

Whitemouse said:


> I would, except I don't trust small online retailers for fear of identity theft.




If you are talking about the company publishing the APG, you DO know that one of the head people in the company posts here on a regular basis right? More often than not, its not the companies you need to worry about for identity theft anyway, its hackers and scammers. Pretty sure Expeditious Retreat Press has cred on these boards as not going to steal your identity


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## Halivar (Sep 23, 2008)

I'm also phobic about my identity (I've had it stolen and horrible things done to my bank account), and I can say that as a wary shopper, I'm satisfied with XRP's on-line shop. The most important thing? Forcing the use of SSL on HTTP connections on their on-line shop. Many small-time outfits still don't use this basic and minimal security measure.

Another bonus is that XRP is not a "nobody" store you got off Google no one has heard of before. They have a significant presence in the D&D gamer community, and you have the names and contact information for its owner.


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## Crothian (Sep 23, 2008)

I trust the people at XRP, but then I also game with them.

I have not seem a copy of this yet, but Suzi did give me the  The Plague  over the weekend


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## drothgery (Sep 23, 2008)

Halivar said:


> I'm also phobic about my identity (I've had it stolen and horrible things done to my bank account), and I can say that as a wary shopper, I'm satisfied with XRP's on-line shop. The most important thing? Forcing the use of SSL on HTTP connections on their on-line shop. Many small-time outfits still don't use this basic and minimal security measure.




FWIW, many big-time outfits only use SSL for login  and billing information, because it's a major performance hit.


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## Wonka (Sep 24, 2008)

Crothian said:


> I trust the people at XRP, but then I also game with them.
> 
> I have not seem a copy of this yet, but Suzi did give me the  The Plague  over the weekend





Neat, I hadn't noticed before that jb at least is based in Ohio. My powers of observation are astounding at times


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## Spatula (Sep 24, 2008)

Regarding the martial artist (really I don't see the issue with the name - everyone knows what a martial artist is) paragon paths, shouldn't the 17th level abilities really be 16th level, like the PPs in the PHB?

Also, I'm guessing that 'chi' encompasses the weapon keyword.

I really like the concept of the Master of the Four Winds, as over the top as it is.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 24, 2008)

Spatula said:


> Regarding the martial artist (really I don't see the issue with the name - everyone knows what a martial artist is) paragon paths, shouldn't the 17th level abilities really be 16th level, like the PPs in the PHB?




Aw, _damn_ it!! 

Yes, that should be 16th level. And looking back over the files, I think that error pops up in several other paragon paths. 

I'm sorry, guys. I don't know how that happened. 



> Also, I'm guessing that 'chi' encompasses the weapon keyword.




"Chi" is a new power keyword, defined in the book.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 24, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Aw, _damn_ it!!
> 
> Yes, that should be 16th level. And looking back over the files, I think that error pops up in several other paragon paths.
> 
> I'm sorry, guys. I don't know how that happened.




Don't worry about it Ari, we'll put up a correction at our website once the book goes live. I should have caught it, but I didn't notice it. *sigh*

joe b.


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## tsadkiel (Sep 24, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Aw, _damn_ it!!
> 
> Yes, that should be 16th level. And looking back over the files, I think that error pops up in several other paragon paths.
> 
> I'm sorry, guys. I don't know how that happened.




I'm sure it's pretty embarrassing, but as errors go, it's fairly harmless.  In the absolute worst case scenario, with new players and DM picking up the book and not realizing it's an error, some characters would be slightly underpowered for one level.


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## Northern Guard (Sep 26, 2008)

I just read through the preview and it doesn't look like the rest of the book will disappoint. Thanks for writing the book and putting out the preview, folks. The PDF will be on my 'must buy' list. Still thinking about the dead-tree version and seeing if it's worth the shipping costs to Canada.


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## Whitemouse (Sep 26, 2008)

Wonka said:


> If you are talking about the company publishing the APG, you DO know that one of the head people in the company posts here on a regular basis right? More often than not, its not the companies you need to worry about for identity theft anyway, its hackers and scammers. Pretty sure Expeditious Retreat Press has cred on these boards as not going to steal your identity




You are right about that, but smaller compaines are more prone to hacker attacks. Thats all it takes for someone to get CC info.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 26, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Don't worry about it Ari, we'll put up a correction at our website once the book goes live. I should have caught it, but I didn't notice it. *sigh*
> 
> joe b.




You don't want to be doing that so quick. Burn through a few print runs, sell the PDF's, and then talk about how it'd be extra work to get those files corrected, and then maybe, maybe, in a deluxe leatherbound edition, put the corrections up.

You've got to follow the lead in cases like this. Sheesh.


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Sep 27, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Aw, _damn_ it!!
> 
> Yes, that should be 16th level. And looking back over the files, I think that error pops up in several other paragon paths.
> 
> ...


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## Jack Colby (Sep 27, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> You don't want to be doing that so quick. Burn through a few print runs, sell the PDF's, and then talk about how it'd be extra work to get those files corrected, and then maybe, maybe, in a deluxe leatherbound edition, put the corrections up.
> 
> You've got to follow the lead in cases like this. Sheesh.




4.5 in all but name, if you ask me.

Advanced Player's Guide sounds like a good investment though.


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## Ghostwind (Sep 27, 2008)

Whitemouse said:


> You are right about that, but smaller compaines are more prone to hacker attacks. Thats all it takes for someone to get CC info.




I've had my CC stolen twice in my lifetime. Both times I could trace it back to Ebay. So don't give me that line about smaller companies being prone cause it isn't true. If you won't trust EXP directly and can't go to a brick & mortar gaming store to have them order it (which they can if they buy from Alliance, ACD or Premier Hobbies) then look at an online store with an established reputation for security who is also a b&m store in California, FRP Games. FRP has a solid reputation both here and at RPG.net for fairness and security.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 27, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> You've got to follow the lead in cases like this. Sheesh.




You mean the lead that put up the first errata in record time, which then provoked complaints from members of the community that errata going up so quickly is a _bad thing_?


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 28, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> You mean the lead that put up the first errata in record time, which then provoked complaints from members of the community that errata going up so quickly is a _bad thing_?




Yeah, it put up the errata so quickly that the DM screen which came out MONTHS latter still wasn't corrected.

Yes, that is a "bad thing".


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## The Little Raven (Sep 28, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> Yeah, it put up the errata so quickly that the DM screen which came out MONTHS latter still wasn't corrected.




July (first errata was released) to August (release of DM screen) is *a* month, not months. A month between errata finalization for the product and it's actual release isn't enough time for a publisher the size of WotC to incorporate changes, since it probably had to be sent to the printer before they finalized the errata.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 28, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> July (first errata was released) to August (release of DM screen) is *a* month, not months. A month between errata finalization for the product and it's actual release isn't enough time for a publisher the size of WotC to incorporate changes, since it probably had to be sent to the printer before they finalized the errata.






> You mean the lead that put up the first errata in record time, which then provoked complaints from members of the community that errata going up so quickly is a bad thing?




So I guess that wouldn't be "record" time then eh?


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## Midnight Dawns (Sep 28, 2008)

Whitemouse said:


> You are right about that, but smaller compaines are more prone to hacker attacks. Thats all it takes for someone to get CC info.



Buy a prepaid card. I believe they are selling them at places like Walgreens now. If you don't have a place to "buy" them then try a bank there are some that give them out.


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## tsadkiel (Sep 28, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> So I guess that wouldn't be "record" time then eh?




Could the discussion of WotC's errata policies be moved to another thread, please?


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