# Jumping ahead: Bring back Bloodied for monsters



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 26, 2022)

This past year has seen multiple third party books either published or crowdfunded to make monsters more interesting. Since WotC seems to be dipping its toe into bringing back more of 4E design, I'd like to see some monsters who hit 50% health automatically have an attack or ability trigger. (Essentially a legendary action for non-legendary creatures.)

This probably wouldn't be appropriate for regular old bandits or guards, but if many dinosaurs suddenly had a tail sweep that hit everyone behind them in a cone for significant damage and knocked them back, they'd be a lot more interesting. Myconoid leaders could have an explosion of spores pour out of them. Harpy leaders could scream in pain and outrage, frightening and damaging all of their opponents who could hear them.

If this is mostly applied to leader or solo monster types, it doesn't significantly add to the complication of running combat for the DM, while instantly making combat feel much more dynamic and a little more dangerous.

Thoughts?


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## Charlaquin (Aug 26, 2022)

Heck, bring it back for PCs too! It doesn’t have to do anything on its own (just like it didn’t do anything on its own in 4e), simply having it as a state a creature can be in gives you a hook to hang other mechanics on.


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## Galandris (Aug 26, 2022)

Bloodied is something I kept, if only to inform players. I usually don't mention how many HP an enemy has, but I concede that character, in-universe, have a lot more information on whether a foe "looks wounded" or not. So I freely inform then when creature are at half-HP. Informing them with a spore attack would improve the situation ;-)


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## delericho (Aug 26, 2022)

I also kept Bloodied around, and would be in favour of it being used as the OP describes.


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## Blue (Aug 26, 2022)

5e went a bit too far in the "natural language, no keywords" direction for my tastes, leaving behind some interesting tools.  Bloodied, and abilities that trigger when it occurs, or are only unlocked with/without the condition are interesting and help keep things dynamic.


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## Lanefan (Aug 26, 2022)

I'd like it if only as a small first step toward a wound-vitality or body-fatigue hit points system.


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## the Jester (Aug 26, 2022)

Yeah, a lot of my own conversions or homebrewed monsters have reactions that trigger when bloodied (or similar things).


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## HammerMan (Aug 26, 2022)

Galandris said:


> Bloodied is something I kept, if only to inform players. I usually don't mention how many HP an enemy has, but I concede that character, in-universe, have a lot more information on whether a foe "looks wounded" or not. So I freely inform then when creature are at half-HP.




We kept bloodied as information. One DM has homebrew some monsters that get advantage either against bloodied enemies or when they are bloodied. 

I think having it back as a condition would do nothing but improve the game.


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## Stalker0 (Aug 26, 2022)

Looking at the houserules thread on enworld, bloodied is a pretty common houserule. If nothing else, its a great rule to help keep track of the pace of killing monsters. But its great to add in to various monsters to give them cool abilities and such.


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## Raith5 (Aug 27, 2022)

I love it for monsters as the OP describes but it also provides an interesting design space for PCs both for a reaction and as a condition - especially for martial types. For instance surely there could be some benefits for bloodied barbarians?

(Id rather see martials boosted rather casters nerfed by getting rid of crits for them).


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## beancounter (Aug 27, 2022)

Galandris said:


> Bloodied is something I kept, if only to inform players. I usually don't mention how many HP an enemy has, but I concede that character, in-universe, have a lot more information on whether a foe "looks wounded" or not. So I freely inform then when creature are at half-HP. Informing them with a spore attack would improve the situation ;-)




I used bloodied to inform players as well, but it doesn't take much for the them to figure out the monster's hp.

When you say bloodied, all the players have to is add up the damage they inflicted so far, and multiply by 2.


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## Eyes of Nine (Aug 27, 2022)

I like bloodied in 4e. I think it will make 1D&D better.


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## payn (Aug 27, 2022)

Eyes of Nine said:


> I like bloodied in 4e. I think it will make 1D&D better.



Work in the levels of effect like PF2 did, with bloodied, and you got yourself a great idea.


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## cbwjm (Aug 27, 2022)

Bloodied was a great keyword, I use it for some monsters and it would be great to have for PCs as well, so that when they get bloodied, things like gnolls get a lot scarier as they suddenly make more attacks (if I'm remembering 4e gnolls correctly)


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## DND_Reborn (Aug 28, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Thoughts?



Why do this only when a creature is below half hp? That makes no sense to me: you have a feature, something you can do, but you can't do it until you're seriously "injured".


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Aug 28, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> Why do this only when a creature is below half hp? That makes no sense to me: you have a feature, something you can do, but you can't do it until you're seriously "injured".



Hysterical strength exists:




__





						Hysterical strength - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## DND_Reborn (Aug 28, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Hysterical strength exists:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which is fine, if it is more or less universal.

And even then why half HP? Why not when you are hit by a critical hit? I mean it seems too arbitrary that every creature is suddenly considered "bloodied" at half HP.

Doesn't seem like anything I would have liked in 4E, so I'm hoping it won't make it going forward.


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 28, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> Why do this only when a creature is below half hp? That makes no sense to me: you have a feature, something you can do, but you can't do it until you're seriously "injured".



normally it was to recharge something (like a dragons getting there BW back and get to use it as a reaction) or something like "Blood in the water" where some creatures got bonus (in 5e advantage) vs targets that are bloodied. 

I made a martial boon called "You never get hit when your back's to the wall" (i was going through an 80's lyrics phase) and it allowed our 'ranger'* to dodge as a bonus action when bloodied. 

I also had a barbarian like monster that 'raged' when bloodied


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## DND_Reborn (Aug 28, 2022)

Out of curiosity, when a creature is bloodied does it lose features as well?

I mean, your caster is below half hp, so you have disadvantage on concentration checks, for example.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Aug 28, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> Which is fine, if it is more or less universal.
> 
> And even then why half HP? Why not when you are hit by a critical hit? I mean it seems too arbitrary that every creature is suddenly considered "bloodied" at half HP.
> 
> Doesn't seem like anything I would have liked in 4E, so I'm hoping it won't make it going forward.



It's always going to be arbitrary, whether it's specifically half-HP or recharging when you take a critical hit, or some other "you get more powerful/recharge a mechanic the more hurt you are" mechanic, just like HP and AC are abstractions.


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 28, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> Out of curiosity, when a creature is bloodied does it lose features as well?
> 
> I mean, your caster is below half hp, so you have disadvantage on concentration checks, for example.



it could.

In my 2e retroclone we used escalation die and bloodied as house ruled and I had caster monsters (drow if you care) that could not cast any spells while bloodied, but could spend an action to heal X amount and gain a special dodge when bloodied.


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## cbwjm (Aug 28, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> Out of curiosity, when a creature is bloodied does it lose features as well?
> 
> I mean, your caster is below half hp, so you have disadvantage on concentration checks, for example.



From memory that didn't happen, though others may know of examples. It should be noted that the effects of being half health/bloodied is already in 5e. Champion fighter gets regeneration when below half health, life cleric can Channel Divinity to heal up to half health, swarms deal less damage at half health (actually, this might be an example where a feature is lost in 4e).

These are the examples I can think of, there may be more in 5e, the only real difference is that they didn't want to call it bloodied.


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## Leatherhead (Aug 28, 2022)

Mythic Monsters are the next itineration of of Bloodied Elites or Solos. And honestly, they could take that even farther by having the Mythic Trigger remove status conditions or negative effects.


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## DND_Reborn (Aug 28, 2022)

cbwjm said:


> From memory that didn't happen, though others may know of examples. It should be noted that the effects of being half health/bloodied is already in 5e. Champion fighter gets regeneration when below half health, life cleric can Channel Divinity to heal up to half health, swarms deal less damage at half health (actually, this might be an example where a feature is lost in 4e).
> 
> These are the examples I can think of, there may be more in 5e, the only real difference is that they didn't want to call it bloodied.



Yeah, I was already thinking of the Champion fighter, but that is a single feature not gained until 18TH LEVEL, we we know 99.9% of players never reach unless they are playing a one-off or something.

Having a special thing happen for a few creatures is one thing, having a general "bloodied" condition is something else IMO.

I know a lot of people use it to describe a creature below half HP, but honestly with the abstract nature of HP I don't even think that is a good idea. The player can track how often he "hit" for "damage" already, so can learn to judge for themselves how "injured" a foe is.

Depending on the creature, clothing or armor worn, etc. even those tell-tale nicks and scraps and profuse sweating from becoming tired might not even be visible. Only (perhaps!) critical hits might have some signs, but even that is meaningless when it comes to HP. 5E doesn't _describe_ what a critical hit is narratively, only mechanically: roll natural 20 then roll double damage dice. It isn't like (the superior) d20 SW which actually tells you YOU ARE HIT, you couldn't avoid or mitigate the attack, and you are injured by a reduction in wound points.

A lot of players don't like death spirals, but in essence getting below half your HP should be a warning sign, not a trigger for awesomeness IMO.


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## MockingBird (Aug 28, 2022)

I never cared for the bloodied condition, it just reinforced the gamey feel of 4e to me. I like that 5e did away with it, most players don't automatically know how longer an enemy will be standing. I agree, if you're bloodied I wouldn't think it should trigger some power attack, maybe something else.


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## Art Waring (Aug 28, 2022)

Bloodied or not, 5e monsters need tools to increase versatility, otherwise they tend to be bags of hit points.

GMs can use these tools without making them feel "gamey," and they shouldn't be discouraged from seeking out new solutions for monsters because they can really use a boost.

Furthermore, some of the most interesting encounters I have run involve custom monsters that have multiple phases. Once reduced to a set amount of HP, the monster changes its behavior, and may change attacks, tactics, and some rare ones even change their resistances. 

Mixing it up and making monsters more versatile keeps complacent players on their toes, especially veteran players who have grown jaded with typical monster design.


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 28, 2022)

cbwjm said:


> swarms deal less damage at half health (actually, this might be an example where a feature is lost in 4e).



yes in 4e swarms took 1/2 damage from no AOE, and at bloodied delt less damage


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## Sir Brennen (Aug 28, 2022)

We know the design team is already looking at beefing up monsters, so they reflect their CR more accurately. 

I didn't pick up Monsters of the Multiverse, for fear I'd be buying those critters a third time with the 2024 books come out. I know presentation changes to make creatures easier to run, practically outlining an optimal strategy, where included in MotM. Where there any other indications of the types of changes that we'll probably see in the future? Maybe something not exactly but similar to Bloodied?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 29, 2022)

Art Waring said:


> Furthermore, some of the most interesting encounters I have run involve custom monsters that have multiple phases. Once reduced to a set amount of HP, the monster changes its behavior, and may change attacks, tactics, and some rare ones even change their resistances.



Multi-phase boss monster fights are definitely something I think tabletop ought to swipe back from computer RPGs and MMOs. Especially on tabletop, where you're not fighting the same boss 40 times and don't know what to expect, I think it adds a lot of excitement.

A good example from World of Warcraft is Onyxia, the first big dragon fight, as I recall of the game. At various health stages, the eggs around her lair suddenly hatch and dozens of dragon whelps come to her aid, she takes to the air (it's a high-ceilinged cavern) and she breathes fire down on everyone. She also has the WoW-standard tail swipe she periodically does to anyone attacking her from behind. As the big archetypal dragon fight of the game, she _feels_ like a dragon in a very satisfying way.

Other boss fights in the game include giant monsters causing so much damage as they fight the players that parts of the ceiling fall down around them, doing crushing damage and waves of reinforcements coming in periodically.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 29, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> We know the design team is already looking at beefing up monsters, so they reflect their CR more accurately.
> 
> I didn't pick up Monsters of the Multiverse, for fear I'd be buying those critters a third time with the 2024 books come out. I know presentation changes to make creatures easier to run, practically outlining an optimal strategy, where included in MotM. Where there any other indications of the types of changes that we'll probably see in the future? Maybe something not exactly but similar to Bloodied?



I haven't combed through the books in detail, but basically, every spellcaster has an easy to do _something_ each turn the DM can quickly use rather than having to comb through the sometimes formerly very long spell lists. It's usually a magical attack that compares favorably to everything else of its CR, even if it's not always the most flavorful (although they do attempt to theme the attacks for the most part, that I saw).

Extrapolating from that, I'd say that even the boring default attack -- useful for the DM who has one too many types of monsters in an encounter -- will be a CR-appropriate attack each round.

Also, critters that had intended synergies in their attacks -- sometimes only clear if you went through and read their entry in The Monsters Know What They're Doing -- had the other attacks that distracted from that clear sequence of abilities taken out or trimmed way back, so even a DM wanting to do something other than the standard damage attack wouldn't end up with a trap option and making the fight too weak.


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## Art Waring (Aug 30, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Multi-phase boss monster fights are definitely something I think tabletop ought to swipe back from computer RPGs and MMOs. Especially on tabletop, where you're not fighting the same boss 40 times and don't know what to expect, I think it adds a lot of excitement.



Absolutely agree, it also helps keep players on their toes, and helps with coming up with creative solutions to fighting monsters if you know the standard tactics aren't going to work.


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## Iosue (Aug 30, 2022)

I like the idea of bloodied as a trigger. I do not like the idea of bloodied as a condition. I do not want to see a return of the 4e Christmas tree, and I’m already leery about the return of Slowed.


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## Haplo781 (Aug 30, 2022)

Bloodied is returning in the WizKids skirmish game, so we'll see.


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## Eltab (Sep 7, 2022)

I miss Bloodied from 4e.  Sometimes the monster's new attack was overwhelming (especially auras) but the announcement was always an indication that the group was making progress taking this monster down.

I agree that 'cannon fodder' foes should not get an attack* at Bloodied but Lieutenants and Bosses should.

Bosses and "special agent" (think 007) monsters could get a lasting ability, not just a one-use-power, when they are really hurting.

Some classes of monsters - mindless undead, say - get nothing at Bloodied; they don't even recognize there is a problem. 

* They might get a disengage-aiding one-shot ability instead.


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## Tonguez (Sep 7, 2022)

Morale should be a thing so I’d be happy to use 50% HP to trigger a ‘run away” response. 
yeah the Harpie screams to tell her sisters to flee, the dinosaurs tail swipe as they are turning to run


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## Yaarel (Sep 7, 2022)

The Bloodied condition as a requirement makes more fair things that end combat, like forcing surrender or stunning.


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## glass (Sep 7, 2022)

beancounter said:


> When you say bloodied, all the players have to is add up the damage they inflicted so far, and multiply by 2.



Although they do not know if the last hit took them to exactly bloodied, or if they were one hp away from it before hand. So unless the bloodying hit is a fairly small one, it has a wide margin of error.



GMforPowergamers said:


> I made a martial boon called "You never get hit when your back's to the wall" (i was going through an 80's lyrics phase) and it allowed our 'ranger'* to dodge as a bonus action when bloodied.



Was that asterisk meanto to be linked to a footnote, because if so it was orphaned. Given the scare quotes, I am assuming the 'ranger' was not technically a ranger, so maybe some clarification on what it actually was? _EDIT: Not having a go (I do that sort of thing all the time). Just curious!_



DND_Reborn said:


> Out of curiosity, when a creature is bloodied does it lose features as well?



In addition to the swarms mentioned above, I am pretty sure that there were some creatures that had lowered defences when bloodied (possibly in exchange for improved attack). But I used to rely on the Compendium, so I can no longer cite any examples....



Iosue said:


> I like the idea of bloodied as a trigger. I do not like the idea of bloodied as a condition. I do not want to see a return of the 4e Christmas tree, and I’m already leery about the return of Slowed.



What is the difference between a trigger and a condition in this context? And what do either have to do with Christmas trees?


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## Iosue (Sep 7, 2022)

Trigger means, "If x, then y." If the monster is bloodied, then they get an extra attack, or their special attack automatically recharges, or something like that. It's quick, easy to remember, it's interesting and then it's gone.

Bloodied as a condition means that the effects of that condition have to be remembered, considered, and accounted for for the rest of the combat. So when we played 4e, we used to put different colored rings around the minis when they got a condition. The monster minis would get so full of conditions, it could barely be seen for all the condition rings hanging off it, like some miserable condition Christmas tree.


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## Yaarel (Sep 7, 2022)

@Iosue

Normally "Christmas tree" is gamer slang for the accumulation of many magic items that end up being more powerful than the character oneself.

1e, 2e, and 3e are notorious for this. 4e standardized it so it was more like a "treadmill", where magic items of specific amounts of power were assigned as one advanced in levels. So everything else at that level also increased in power, with some feeling little changed.


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## glass (Sep 7, 2022)

Iosue said:


> Bloodied as a condition means that the effects of that condition have to be remembered, considered, and accounted for for the rest of the combat.



I can sorta see what you mean now, but even as a condition it doesn't actually do anything other than allow things to trigger off it (and it does not really need separate tracking since the GM and/or relevant player is tracking hp anyway).



Yaarel said:


> Normally "Christmas tree" is gamer slang for the accumulation of many magic items that end up being more powerful than the character oneself.



Indeed. Specifically IIRC, it refers to the notion that, when viewed using _detect magic_, high-level characters "light up like a Christmas tree".


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## GMforPowergamers (Sep 7, 2022)

glass said:


> Was that asterisk meanto to be linked to a footnote, because if so it was orphaned. Given the scare quotes, I am assuming the 'ranger' was not technically a ranger, so maybe some clarification on what it actually was? _EDIT: Not having a go (I do that sort of thing all the time). Just curious!_



we were using the middle earth 5e books so they had a few new classes and then they renamed some and took the spells away.
so what we would call a ranger is called a wanderer... the wanderer is a ranger without spells but has a single feature called 'known lands' that interacts with the journey system I like. but we never called it a wanderer.... we always called it a ranger.


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## glass (Sep 7, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> we were using the middle earth 5e books so they had a few new classes and then they renamed some and took the spells away.
> so what we would call a ranger is called a wanderer... the wanderer is a ranger without spells but has a single feature called 'known lands' that interacts with the journey system I like. but we never called it a wanderer.... we always called it a ranger.



Thank you for clarifying. I guessed it would be something like that, but it is good to get the specifics.


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## Lanefan (Sep 7, 2022)

Eltab said:


> I miss Bloodied from 4e.  Sometimes the monster's new attack was overwhelming (especially auras) but the announcement was always an indication that the group was making progress taking this monster down.
> 
> I agree that 'cannon fodder' foes should not get an attack* at Bloodied but Lieutenants and Bosses should.
> 
> ...



Thing is, what a monster gets from becoming bloodied IMO shouldn't always have to be to its benefit.  For some, it could be a weakening of some sort e.g. a loss of some ability it previously had (an easy example: a bloodied monster with flight can no longer fly, and if already aloft on becoming bloodied must glide to the ground).  For others, sure, it could be some one-time big attack or ability use.

Mix it up, is all I'm saying.


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## Iosue (Sep 8, 2022)

glass said:


> I can sorta see what you mean now, but even as a condition it doesn't actually do anything other than allow things to trigger off it (and it does not really need separate tracking since the GM and/or relevant player is tracking hp anyway).



Sure. I don't have a problem with a spherical bloodied condition in a vacuum. My problem was more with the multitude of conditions in 4e and the effect that had in play. I thought 5e did well in paring those down, and making combat less reliant on them.


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## Digdude@1970 (Sep 8, 2022)

Not a popular opinion, but id love for pc and monsters to suffer a debuff when bloodied. Maybe half movement and lose one attack, bonus or reaction. Just something to break up the all or nothing hp system.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 8, 2022)

Digdude@1970 said:


> Not a popular opinion, but id love for pc and monsters to suffer a debuff when bloodied. Maybe half movement and lose one attack, bonus or reaction. Just something to break up the all or nothing hp system.



IME, those systems tend to just turn into a long and painful death spiral. Great in fiction, but not fun in play.


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## Lanefan (Sep 8, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> IME, those systems tend to just turn into a long and painful death spiral.



That's kind of the point. 


Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Great in fiction, but not fun in play.



Just means one has to play differently, that's all; and look at every hit point - rather than just the last one - as being a highly valuable resource not to be expended unless there's no other option.

Don't get hurt, or make sure you get cured up as soon as you do, and the death spiral doesn't become an issue.


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## Haplo781 (Sep 8, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> That's kind of the point.
> 
> Just means one has to play differently, that's all; and look at every hit point - rather than just the last one - as being a highly valuable resource not to be expended unless there's no other option.
> 
> Don't get hurt, or make sure you get cured up as soon as you do, and the death spiral doesn't become an issue.



Sorry that isn't a game most of us want to play.


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## Yaarel (Sep 8, 2022)

Ideally:

*Fresh / Refreshed: *maximum hit points or some damage, full health, vigor, alertness, skillful response, luckiness, near misses, nonphysical damage, minor fatigue, distraction, only negligible physical damage, light contact (mainly for poison attack and similar), glancing strikes, minor scrapes.

*Bloodied:* half or more hit point loss, noticeable fatigue, distraction, sloppiness, punchdrunk, superficial but noticeable physical damage, blood drawn, solid impact landing, cut, there will be bruises and need for bandages.

*Downed:* zero hit points, helpless, loss of control. Depending on the nature of attack, bound, knocked unconscious, or deep physical trauma, organs rupture, bones break, hemorrhaging, system shock, an injury threatening life (or limb) occurs.


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## CubicsRube (Sep 8, 2022)

One thing I'd like to see used more in RPGs are reverse death spirals. Abilities at bloodied are one way I've seen to do that.

One element I like about this is it gives you a buffer as a GM for setting encounter difficulty. The closer a party gets to a TPK the more abilities they get, which should mean that their likelihood of getting a close win is increased.

In terms of monsters, there's a huge design space in there as mentioned above. Recharges on bloodied, some creatures may run or get weaker, while others become more dangerous. I'd love to see some element of this included in One D&D


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 8, 2022)

Bloodied would also help one make an estimated guess when you can hit a monster with sleep or colour spray.

I don't want to play a game with penalties for being bloodied. I really liked the 4e way of being more successible for certain attacks but also unlocking abilities.
There are already abilities that are basically: when bloodied -> life cleric healing channel divinity and champion regeneration IIRC.


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## glass (Sep 8, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> That's kind of the point.



You want to spend your precious leisure time doing things that are "long and painful"?


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## Lanefan (Sep 8, 2022)

glass said:


> You want to spend your precious leisure time doing things that are "long and painful"?



Long and painful for the characters, sure.

Doesn't mean it's long and painful for the players.  Quite the opposite, often enough.


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## jdrakeh (Sep 8, 2022)

Bring it back. All of the 5e DMs I play with already use it, so why not make it official?


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## CM (Sep 8, 2022)

My players all very much liked having the bloodied tag since 4e and we kept on using it in 5e. I would like to see it return if done correctly.


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## Marandahir (Sep 9, 2022)

jdrakeh said:


> Bring it back. All of the 5e DMs I play with already use it, so why not make it official?



This is the same reason Critical Failures may come back. 

I'm all for it!


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## Eltab (Sep 14, 2022)

Iosue said:


> My problem was more with the multitude of conditions in 4e and the effect that had in play. I thought 5e did well in paring those down, and making combat less reliant on them.



My favorite 4e character was a damage-lite Warlock that imposed status conditions on the enemy.  In effect I dumped barrels of molasses on them: you are still standing there, but try to _do_ anything.


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## Bill Zebub (Sep 14, 2022)

I just hate the term “bloodied”. Not sure why. 

But other than that, I’m all for the idea that a monster gains an ability, or otherwise changes behavior, when health dips below a threshold.


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## Emryys (Sep 15, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> I just hate the term “bloodied”. Not sure why.



13th Age uses "Staggered'...


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## Bill Zebub (Sep 15, 2022)

Emryys said:


> 13th Age uses "Staggered'...



I’d be ok with “50% HP”. That also allows for flexibility.


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## Horwath (Sep 15, 2022)

100%-76% of HP, Healthy
75%-51% of HP, Bruised
26%-50% of HP, Bloodied
1%-25% of HP, Injured
0HP dying

this are descriptions we mostly use to describe the amount of damage the monster took.


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## Lanefan (Sep 15, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> I’d be ok with “50% HP”. That also allows for flexibility.



Indeed, and good call: some people/creatures might go bloodied at half-hits, others only when down to 1/4 hits, and still others on being hit at all.  Just needs a one-liner in the stat block "Bloodied at ____".


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 15, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> Indeed, and good call: some people/creatures might go bloodied at half-hits, others only when down to 1/4 hits, and still others on being hit at all.  Just needs a one-liner in the stat block "Bloodied at ____".



The mechanism of having things trigger at various health levels, not just 50%, opens up things like a lich being destroyed breaks its magical staff, unleashing the dreaded retributive strike, or, at lower levels an owlbear lashing out with its claws with its dying breath to take its foes with them. Some foes should be scary until they're completely, 100% dead.


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## Bill Zebub (Sep 15, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> Indeed, and good call: some people/creatures might go bloodied at half-hits, others only when down to 1/4 hits, and still others on being hit at all.  Just needs a one-liner in the stat block "Bloodied at ____".




And what if there are two thresholds?

Just call it “threshold” and insert it after ability name.

Example:

*Keening Wail* (threshold: 60 HP) The Troll sobs in despair over the state of its favorite roleplaying game. Creatures within 60’ who can hear must make a DC 10 Wisdom save and on a failure roll their eyes so hard they become Blind until the end of their next turn.

“Threshold” probably isn’t the best term, but something that denotes a numerical cut-off, not a physical state of the creature.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 15, 2022)

I would flip it around to have the threshold first, and then the effect, so DMs will be less likely to miss it during play.


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## vagabundo (Sep 15, 2022)

Bloodied is great in 4e as its a number you can easily reference. It's easy to remember and can impact both mechanics and the narrative in interesting ways.

WotC were fools to get rid of it.


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## cbwjm (Sep 15, 2022)

vagabundo said:


> Bloodied is great in 4e as its a number you can easily reference. It's easy to remember and can impact both mechanics and the narrative in interesting ways.
> 
> WotC were fools to get rid of it.



I think at minimum, WotC should have brought forward the bloodied condition and effects that trigger off it, tougher level 1 PCs (level 1 hit points being doubled or given a flat increase of 8 to 10 hit points would do it), and healing surges. Hit dice are fine, but I think PCs having a pool of healing surges would be better.


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## Lanefan (Sep 16, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> And what if there are two thresholds?



With this, sir, you're on to something.  And why stop at just two?


Bill Zebub said:


> Just call it “threshold” and insert it after ability name.



Or "Trigger", and lose the ability name entirely - it's not necessary.


Bill Zebub said:


> Example:
> 
> *Keening Wail* (threshold: 60 HP) The Troll sobs in despair over the state of its favorite roleplaying game. Creatures within 60’ who can hear must make a DC 10 Wisdom save and on a failure roll their eyes so hard they become Blind until the end of their next turn.
> 
> “Threshold” probably isn’t the best term, but something that denotes a numerical cut-off, not a physical state of the creature.



I'd far rather stick with fractions or %-ages to keep it simpler for DMs who want to tweak monster h.p. totals (a common 5e variant, I believe, sees DMs cut everyone's h.p. by half) and also to allow for similar creatures with somewhat variable h.p. totals as if those totals had been rolled.  It would also have to be made clear somehow that triggers can only happen once per combat, otherwise regenerating or self-curing creatures might get broken fast as they repeatedly passed through a trigger point. 

But, for your Troll it might look like:

Trigger 1 = 50% hit points: the Troll screams in pain and frustration.  Anyone in the room (or within 60' if area larger) that can hear must make a DC 10 Con save or have no reactions, no bonus actions, no spellcasting, and -2 to hit and damage until the Troll's next turn.

Trigger 2 = 25% hit points: the Troll ceases attacking and seeks only to escape, immediately (regardless of turn order) fleeing in what to it appears the safest direction, bullrushing anyone who would try to stop it.  If fleeing is impossible e.g. the combat is taking place in a closed room then the Troll will instead become mindlessly berserk for three rounds, gaining double its usual number of attacks each at +4 damage though during this time all to-hit rolls against it are at advantage.

Trigger 3 = 0 hit points: if a foe is within reach, the Troll gains an extra full attack sequence as it collapses.

And this multi-trigger idea can go into some class- or species-specific feats or abilities as well.  Hobbits might gain +1 on their Con saves for each 10% hit points lost, for example; or a Rogue's sneak attack damage might suffer a progressive penalty for each 20% hit points lost - that sort of thing.

The more I think about it, the more wide-open design space I find here.


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## cbwjm (Sep 16, 2022)

Better to keep the number of hit points for the triggers in there somewhere so that DMs aren't having to work out what those %s actually translate into at the table.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 16, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> The more I think about it, the more wide-open design space I find here.



MMOs have gotten a lot of crap over the years from tabletop players, but I think boss monster design there is head and shoulders above where it is in 5E. 

It's an expectation in World of Warcraft, for instance, for big raid bosses to have multiple health-related triggers for all sorts of changes to an encounter, from armies of spirits stampeding across the battlefield to powerful attacks to the floor being smashed and everyone dropping down to a new battlefield on the floor below. (This isn't exclusive to WoW, of course. I believe it was pioneered in EverQuest's ring events back in 2000.)


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## Bill Zebub (Sep 16, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> MMOs have gotten a lot of crap over the years from tabletop players, but I think boss monster design there is head and shoulders above where it is in 5E.
> 
> It's an expectation in World of Warcraft, for instance, for big raid bosses to have multiple health-related triggers for all sorts of changes to an encounter, from armies of spirits stampeding across the battlefield to powerful attacks to the floor being smashed and everyone dropping down to a new battlefield on the floor below. (This isn't exclusive to WoW, of course. I believe it was pioneered in EverQuest's ring events back in 2000.)




*YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!*


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## Lanefan (Sep 16, 2022)

cbwjm said:


> Better to keep the number of hit points for the triggers in there somewhere so that DMs aren't having to work out what those %s actually translate into at the table.



Except if there's six different ones of the same creature with six different hp values that doesn't work. (e.g. six Trolls, starting h.p. 54, 51, 47, 46, 40, 38).

Unless you put separate trigger blocks for each one, of course, but that seems like a big waste of space when one can just use % or fractions instead of hard numbers.


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## Lanefan (Sep 16, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> MMOs have gotten a lot of crap over the years from tabletop players, but I think boss monster design there is head and shoulders above where it is in 5E.
> 
> It's an expectation in World of Warcraft, for instance, for big raid bosses to have multiple health-related triggers for all sorts of changes to an encounter, from armies of spirits stampeding across the battlefield to powerful attacks to the floor being smashed and everyone dropping down to a new battlefield on the floor below. (This isn't exclusive to WoW, of course. I believe it was pioneered in EverQuest's ring events back in 2000.)



I'll have to take your word for this.

The closest I've ever got to World of Warcraft is watching someone else play it, while not really having much clue what was going on despite her best attempts to explain.


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## cbwjm (Sep 16, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> Except if there's six different ones of the same creature with six different hp values that doesn't work. (e.g. six Trolls, starting h.p. 54, 51, 47, 46, 40, 38).
> 
> Unless you put separate trigger blocks for each one, of course, but that seems like a big waste of space when one can just use % or fractions instead of hard numbers.



I think in the case of 5e, that's unlikely to be the case. I don't think many DMs use varied hit points for the same monsters. Anyway, I mean in the standard stat block, the one you get in the MM which lists the average hit points you could easily have "trigger 50% (27) hit points". If you're adding in something like this, you want to make it easy for the DMs running the game, especially if you have more than juat a 50% trigger. Having to make them figure out what 25% of 73 hit points in the middle of the game is a sure fire way of making DMs ignore it.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 16, 2022)

I wouldn't want to use this sort of thing for a monster or NPC type that would be encountered en masse. This should be something special -- a boss monster or a solo, to use (I think) the 4E terminology.


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## Lanefan (Sep 16, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I wouldn't want to use this sort of thing for a monster or NPC type that would be encountered en masse. This should be something special -- a boss monster or a solo, to use (I think) the 4E terminology.



Au contraire: I think it should be a feature of many creatures both common and rare, along with PCs and NPCs of certain classes and-or species.

Even the humble little Goblin might have something that triggers at 25% hit points, even if its triggered "ability" is just to drop everything and surrender.


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## Eltab (Sep 17, 2022)

cbwjm said:


> I don't think many DMs use varied hit points for the same monsters.



_raises hand_
One.

I had a pack of carnivores hunting the heroes as they traversed wilderness terrain.  A few had minimum HP (indicating near-juveniles).  Most HPs were rolled randomly.  Two had max HP and were the 'alpha male / female' of the pack.


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