# Review of Non-d20 stuff [Morrus/Psion]



## Eosin the Red (Aug 3, 2004)

Since the ENnie awards now cover products outside of d20, I thought that I would see what the chances of having those products reviewed on ENworld might be? Specifically, I was thinking of reviewing a few fantasy products for Hero System.

To be forthright – this comes in response to this thread on the Hero Boards. I would mention that I have the following reviews: Deathright, Wheel of Time RPG, Prophecies of the Dragon, & Pagans & Pantheons.  

Thanks....Eosin


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## Morrus (Aug 3, 2004)

Hmmm.... I knew the day would come when I'd have to make a call on this.

I'm gonna say yes, with two caveats:

1) Make sure you stick to RPG materials only - no miniatures, boardgames, wargames, card games, etc.

2) Most people here are going to assume something is d20 unless you state otherwise, so make it very clear in your review, right near the beginning, that it's not a d20 product.

Sound fair?  You'll need to add the product(s) to the database yourself.


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## Eosin the Red (Aug 3, 2004)

It sounds very fair.

Thanks.


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## Sketchpad (Aug 3, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> You'll need to add the product(s) to the database yourself




This would be in the normal review area, correct?  Is there some way that someone could add Hero Games / DOJ as a publisher?   Much appreciated


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## diaglo (Aug 3, 2004)

will this include D&D products too?

i could see if i can find the reviews i did of Original D&D material from a few years..okay a couple decades ago...


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## Crothian (Aug 3, 2004)

Personally, I thing this great news.  

And I added them to the system: 

http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=publist&which=Hero+Games


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## haiiro (Aug 4, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> 2) Most people here are going to assume something is d20 unless you state otherwise, so make it very clear in your review, right near the beginning, that it's not a d20 product.




Perhaps a tag of some sort -- *[non-d20]*, for example -- would be a good way to set them apart. It's have to show up in the title to be effective, so you'd see it anytime the title was displayed.


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## Aaron2 (Aug 4, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Sound fair?




I was actually disappointed to see non-d20 reviews mixed in. I have nothing against Hero and own most of the stuff reviewed. However, there are plenty of other places to find reviews for non-d20 stuff (rpg.net for example). If the d20 and non-d20 stuff isn't seperated somehow, the d20 stuff will soon be swamped out. This is the only place I have to find reviews of the less common d20 stuff and use the "new reviews" section as a means to see whats been released that I should take a look at. I can't do this if its crammed with Hero, GURPS, and WW stuff. So, I respectfully request a seperate review section for non-d20 stuff. 


Aaron


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## enrious (Aug 6, 2004)

I agree with Aaron2 on this - he said virtually verbatim my own thoughts.


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## mythusmage (Aug 6, 2004)

Nobody says you have to read them.

Please remember that this is not a private site for a few friends, it is a public site with thousands of visitors a day. The interests of a few are not the interests of the whole. So note what system a review is for, and avoid those for systems you don't like.


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## Vanuslux (Aug 6, 2004)

Aaron2 said:
			
		

> I was actually disappointed to see non-d20 reviews mixed in. I have nothing against Hero and own most of the stuff reviewed. However, there are plenty of other places to find reviews for non-d20 stuff (rpg.net for example). If the d20 and non-d20 stuff isn't seperated somehow, the d20 stuff will soon be swamped out. This is the only place I have to find reviews of the less common d20 stuff and use the "new reviews" section as a means to see whats been released that I should take a look at. I can't do this if its crammed with Hero, GURPS, and WW stuff. So, I respectfully request a seperate review section for non-d20 stuff.
> 
> 
> Aaron




I also agree with Aaron2.  I hate it.  There are plenty of other sites for non-d20 material...I come here because ENWorld is not like those sites and the last thing I want is to see it become that.  I love GURPS and WoD, but I don't want to see them here.  

As for this not being a private site for a few friends...I didn't see any poll or anything being held on the subject to see how the community at large felt about it.  Morrus has a right to run his site how he feels like, but don't act like this was some group decision reflecting the overall feeling of the site and handwave away criticism of it as the naysaying of the insignificant minority.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 6, 2004)

haiiro said:
			
		

> Perhaps a tag of some sort -- *[non-d20]*, for example -- would be a good way to set them apart. It's have to show up in the title to be effective, so you'd see it anytime the title was displayed.




I think this could be done. 

Right now we have print and pdf as options to segreate or filter the non-d20 stuff. It could be print, pdf, or non-d20. 

As far as reviews of non-d20 stuff... I'm a little ambient about it right now. I can see that some would like to have more generalized RPG material here, but this isn't RPG.net, for better or for worse. Attempts to put the cart in front of the horse seem to have been made.

For example, where are the forums for people who want to discuss Hero, Rolemaster, or other games?

See, the thing is though, I perfectly understand why those forums are not here. Why would a site like this, mainly a d20 site, compete with the official forums of Hero, which are usually pretty jumping? Even d20 companies like Necromancer, Mongoose,and Malhavok have come a long way in terms of community.


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## Eosin the Red (Aug 6, 2004)

Vanuslux said:
			
		

> I come here because ENWorld is not like those sites and the last thing I want is to see it become that.  I love GURPS and WoD, but I don't want to see them here.




I asked the original question - so I would like to address this  a little. First, *me too!* ENworld is not like those sites. What you have done, is to draw causality from an observation where one may or may not be related. I dislike the sites mentioned for exactly the same reason you do, but having GURPs or WoD or Hero is not what makes those sites the way they are, nor is that fact that ENworld is ***D&D only - the reason that it is a community and friendly site. Those properties have nothing to do with one another. [***ENworld only gives the illusion of being d20 only. Several of the story hours and many of the plot threads are not d20]

There are plenty of sites for discussion of other systems - as mentioned Hero discussions are best conducted on another friendly site - Hero Games but when it comes to reviews, posting them to Heros own website is rather futile. 

There was an immediate flood of reviews but that should VERY shortly subside. d20 will remain the overwhelming bulk of ENworld reviews - time will show this. I, personally, don't have any desire to post supers reviews on ENworld but reviews of fantasy based RPGs - any FRPGs - can only help ENWorld. When it comes to other genres - well, the cat is out of the bag - we have modern, spycraft, future, SW, B5, SG-1, M&M, and just about any genre you could desire as legit reviews already on ENworld. The people who are interested in M&M have a huge crossover with those who are interested in Hero Games or Silver Age Sentinals. Just like a review of a Hero sytem fantasy module will appeal to many ENworld readers, a review of Champions Superheros by Arron Alliston will appeal to many of the players of M&M or SAS. Since those people are already here and already reading the reviews, it makes sense that those reviews would be useful to many folks even if they are not useful to me.

Finally, exclusionary has never been ENworlds policy. The opposite is true. The community is diverse and we tend to respect each others space rather than dictating what should or should not be legit for discussion.

That said a third category - non-d20 games certianly would be an easy fix.

[EDITED - because I had been up 26 hours and it really showed.]


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## BSF (Aug 6, 2004)

I see less need to have ongoing discussions regarding other game systems on ENWorld.  However, I would like to see more reviews of non-D20 products.  I play different games and I like to see what other ENWorlders have to say about different games.  Especially if the review is from somebody that I already have similarities in like/dislike areas.  If you rely on the New Reviews page to keep up with everything, I can certainly see how the flood of non-D20 product could be a nuisance.  I don't see it because when I go into the reviews, I am there for a long time looking at many, many reviews.  A non-d20 tag would be useful though.


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## Emiricol (Aug 7, 2004)

While I would prefer not to see non-D20 reviews here, that's a small matter really.  What would kill this site for me would be to see a flood of people who don't play D20 come here, flame the boards or harrangue on the glories of Game System [Insert Pet System Here] compared to D20 when we are trying to discuss AoO, etc.

 Having no non-D20 *forums* might just prevent that, and since the reviews are here anyway I hope we don't get forums for that stuff...


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## HellHound (Aug 7, 2004)

I agree that the non-d20 products should be indicated as such in the review title itself - maybe rename each product to be 

[non-d20] Fantasy Hero
[non-d20] GURPS The Prisoner

etc... That way I don't have to open each review to find out if the review is d20 related or not.


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## buzz (Aug 11, 2004)

If the ENnies are going to include products that are not d20, the reviews seciton should include products that are not d20. I think it would hurt the award's credibility if ENworld activle discouraged discussion and review of non-d20 product.



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> For example, where are the forums for people who want to discuss Hero, Rolemaster, or other games?



General RPG Discussion and Story Hour. It's happening even as we speak.



			
				Vanuslux said:
			
		

> Morrus has a right to run his site how he feels like, but don't act like this was some group decision reflecting the overall feeling of the site and handwave away criticism of it as the naysaying of the insignificant minority.



ENworld is a community. If members of the community are expressing an interest in non-d20 games, then why not let the site adapt organically to their needs? It's no secret that d20 is the focus here, so I don't see non-d20 discussion and reviews taking over anytime soon. Most people here probably play lots of different systems.

And, heck, if we can have forums dedicated to software, art, and TV, why shoudl Morrus & co. suddenly clamp down on non-d20 RPGs?

FWIW, I don't have a problem with a separate review category being set up, especially seeing as the review section is titled the "D20 System Guide & Reviews". A general "Other Systems Guide" would suffice.


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## BiggusGeekus (Aug 11, 2004)

I also would like the non-d20 stuff labeled and kept in a seprate area much like the PDF flies are.  I realize this might mean a total of four databases (d20, non-d20, pdf d20, pdf non-20) which may be hard to administer.  However, I'd be ticked if I read about a great game, bought it under the assumption it was d20, and then found out that half the book was rules that wouldn't apply to my game.

I don't mind doing major rule conversions, but I want to know I have to do them before I buy a book.


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## buzz (Aug 12, 2004)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> However, I'd be ticked if I read about a great game, bought it under the assumption it was d20, and then found out that half the book was rules that wouldn't apply to my game.



I'd imagine it's a pretty poor review that you can get through and not know what system the book is for.


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## Emiricol (Aug 12, 2004)

Heck, if we can have reviews of non-D20 stuff on this D20 site (in addition to the previously mentioned TV, books etc forums) why not have a automotive section?  I want to know what the D20 community thinks about splitfires.  Or a section on archery techniques?  Or, why not discuss the latest pr0n sites and open reviews for the newest DVDs?

 Ok, I took the train of thought (trainwreck?) waaaay too far, but the point is that I think the line has to be somewhere, and keeping non-D20 stuff where it already is makes a fine line in my opinion.  As to the reviews, if they must be here anyway, at least please make them labeled clearly as being non-D20.  That way I can read them if I want or avoid them if I prefer.

 Ultimately I was happy with "the line" being "d20 stuff".


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## Vanuslux (Aug 22, 2004)

The thing is that the non-d20/ogl stuff in the forums is nicely tucked away in one spot that I'm barely even conscious of.  Non-d20/ogl stuff in the reviews section dilutes its usefulness as a reference.  Even though I love other systems and want to read reviews of other system's products, I really don't want them here.  The next logical step is non-d20/ogl news.  Then there's not any really point in coming here anymore because it's just another generic RPG site.  What I love about this site is system focus, much like my favorite WoD site doesn't cover anything but WoD and other storyteller system stuff, and this was a large step away from that.


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## Sketchpad (Aug 22, 2004)

Vanuslux said:
			
		

> The thing is that the non-d20/ogl stuff in the forums is nicely tucked away in one spot that I'm barely even conscious of.  Non-d20/ogl stuff in the reviews section dilutes its usefulness as a reference.  Even though I love other systems and want to read reviews of other system's products, I really don't want them here.  The next logical step is non-d20/ogl news.  Then there's not any really point in coming here anymore because it's just another generic RPG site.  What I love about this site is system focus, much like my favorite WoD site doesn't cover anything but WoD and other storyteller system stuff, and this was a large step away from that.



 Gotta disagree with ya here Van ... I use all sorts of games when I run ... like when I do D&D, I've referred to Fantasy Hero, Vampire: The Dark Ages, Dangerous Journeys and others.  When I run Champions, I use Mutants & Masterminds, Deeds Not Words, MSH, DC Heroes and more ... source material is sometimes great inspiration no matter the system


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## Vanuslux (Aug 22, 2004)

Sketchpad said:
			
		

> Gotta disagree with ya here Van ... I use all sorts of games when I run ... like when I do D&D, I've referred to Fantasy Hero, Vampire: The Dark Ages, Dangerous Journeys and others.  When I run Champions, I use Mutants & Masterminds, Deeds Not Words, MSH, DC Heroes and more ... source material is sometimes great inspiration no matter the system




I've known people to get inspiration from McDonald's commercials too, but I wouldn't want to see them reviewed here either.  A vast number of people get inspiration from novels, but I don't see them being reviewed here, nor would I want them to be.  A good GM can find inspiration everywhere...that doesn't mean I want to see the best d20 site ruined by off-topic stuff creeping out of the off-topic forum and onto the main areas of the site.


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## Welverin (Aug 24, 2004)

Why not give it some time, say a month or so, let things settle down after the initial rush and see how it works out? When the Non-RPG SCiFI/Fantasy and Off-topic forums were start there was a fair amount of doom and gloom, but have brought the site down.

I susect the fact that this has been d20 focused for so long will keep the number of non-d20 reviews down. Discussion of non-d20/D&D games has always been allowed in general, but there are never a lot of threads dedicated to such things.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 24, 2004)

Vanuslux said:
			
		

> I've known people to get inspiration from McDonald's commercials too, but I wouldn't want to see them reviewed here either.  A vast number of people get inspiration from novels, but I don't see them being reviewed here, nor would I want them to be.  A good GM can find inspiration everywhere...that doesn't mean I want to see the best d20 site ruined by off-topic stuff creeping out of the off-topic forum and onto the main areas of the site.




I'm with you on this. If the non-d20 reviews could be filtered, like the PDF and Print reviews can, I think that would help ease some of the burden if they were automatically filtered.

I also worry that some of these other products are going to start hitting the top spots. Do we now start ranking non-d20 products above d20 products or is there a system in place to handle that?


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