# Maneuvers and Stances



## Zanthorphs (Feb 10, 2007)

I had asked a question about a good PrC for the Monk class and was redirected to the Tome of Battle (ToB), more precisely the Shadow Sun Ninja (SSN). After reading the class I quickly became confused about the maneuvers known/maneuvers readied/stance system. So I read the section of the ToB that described them, but in the end it only left me slightly more confused. So I am asking for someone to essentially to break down the entire maneuver/stance system for me?

Thanks.


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## DarkJester (Feb 10, 2007)

Maneuvers and stances belong to one of nine disciplines. Each discipline has a key concept, weapons associated with it, and a skill associated with it. I tend to think of the guys from ToB as a kind of "spellcaster" as far as learning the system goes. Readied maneuvers are equivalent to prepared spells. Initiator level is the equivalent to caster level. 

*Maneuvers:* Think of these as spells for melee guys. They break down into three categories:

_Strikes_: These are single melee attacks as standard actions which general have some extra bonus thrown on there, such as some extra damage dice, or a fancy flip-over-bad-guy and attack him kind of thing.

_Boosts:_ These are swift actions to activate and provide some benefit for the round. For example, burning blade (Desert Wind 1) gives an extra 1d6+X fire damage on your attacks for that round.

_Counters:_ These are, as they sound, abilities you activate in response to being attacked. Some negate attacks, some allow for retribution, some give a bonus to saving throws.​
*Stances*: You know many fewer stances than you will ever know maneuvers. You gain the benefit of the stance all the time (it is not an action to use them). An example stance is child of shadow (Shadowhand 1) which grants concealment to your character if you are in shadows. 





The way the system is set up you have to take lower level maneuvers to meet the requirements for higher level maneuvers within a single school. Maneuvers are more generally limited by level at the same progression as wizards (2nd level maneuvers at 3rd level, 3rd level maneuvers at 5th level, etc).


Well, getting into the class requires a small number of maneuvers which would require you to take a level of swordsage or a couple feats. Monks are lacking feats so I assume you'd be going with the level of sword sage. A level of swordsage would grant 6 maneuvers and a stance. This would mean you'd get to select 6 maneuvers. Of these 6 maneuvers you would declare 4 of them as readied. Only readied maneuvers can be used, but changing your readied maneuvers only takes 5 minutes so its changeable outside of combat. Once a maneuver has been used you have to take a full round action to recover the maneuver to able to use it again. 



Assuming you already have a couple monk levels and you are adding sword sage on top you have the possibility of gaining higher than first level maneuvers (See page 39 about Initiator level). For instance, as a Monk 4 Swordsage 1 you'd have an initiator level of 3, and be able to pick up 2nd level maneuvers assuming you met the other requirements for those.


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## hong (Feb 10, 2007)

Think of it like Magic. The maneuvers you know are like the cards you own. For each fight, you choose a selected number of maneuvers that you ready. This becomes your deck. Each turn, you can tap one or more maneuvers to use it; that maneuver then becomes unreadied. Eg, you can tap the Cloak of Deception boost maneuver, which uses a swift action; move up to an enemy; and tap the Ruby Nightmare Blade strike maneuver, which uses a standard action.

You can untap a card in various ways, depending on your class. Eg if you're a swordsage, you untap one card by spending a full-round action. (There's also the Adaptive Style feat which is good for this sort of thing.)

At the end of the fight, all the cards in your deck untap and go back into your pool. Next fight, choose another deck. Easy!


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## Zanthorphs (Feb 10, 2007)

I found that very useful, but i still have a few questions:

One of the Requirements to get into SSN is that you must know one 2nd lvl Shadow hand or Setting Sun maneuver, and then one of any lvl of the other one.  Since as a lvl 1 Sword Sage you get 6 maneuvers known but only one stance.  Does that mean that you can only know either Shadow or Sun at that point, having all 6 maneuvers of that chosen discipline, and can not have 5 from Shadow and 1 from Sun?

If you can't have two different styles from one can you get a magic item like _Shadow Hands_ with a lvl 1 maneuver on it to meet the requirments to get into SSN?


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## DarkJester (Feb 10, 2007)

You basically need 1 second level maneuver from either shadowhand or Setting sun, and then 1 first level manuever from both. The only thing that prevents you from picking up higher level manuevers in a discipline is the number of prerequisites a maneuver has. Second level maneuvers generally have 1, so you'll be able to have one setting sun level 1 maneuver, 1 shadowhand level 1 maneuver, and 1 second level maneuver of either one (as well as still have 3 free maneuvers left over, which could be second level maneuvers in either discipline, or first level maneuvers in another disciple, or even a first level and then second level maneuver in another discipline).


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## hong (Feb 10, 2007)

You would have to be at least a 3rd level swordsage to pick up 2nd level maneuvers.


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## Zanthorphs (Feb 10, 2007)

So what you are saying is that you start gaining different lvl maneuvers at the same rate that a wizard starts to gain spell lvls?


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## DarkJester (Feb 10, 2007)

I was going with the assumption that you were a monk, and then looking to multiclass into swordsage in order to gain entry into the prestige class. Yes, if you were a straight sword sage you would have to be a 3rd level sword sage to gain access to 2nd level maneuvers. However, if you have 4 levels in any other class before you gain that first swordsage level you can take second level maneuvers directly because of the weird way initiator level stacks. Your initiator level is = to 1/2 not initiator class levels + your initiator class levels, so as a monk 4 Sword sage 1 you have a initiator level of 3, and assuming you pick up the lower level maneuvers can gain access to second level maneuvers.


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## hong (Feb 10, 2007)

Zanthorphs said:
			
		

> So what you are saying is that you start gaining different lvl maneuvers at the same rate that a wizard starts to gain spell lvls?



Yep. I'm not sure if it's explicitly spelled out in the books, but that's certainly the consensus here. Otherwise you could take Mountain Tombstone Strike (9th level Stone Dragon strike) at 1st level, since it has no prereq maneuvers.


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## Zanthorphs (Feb 10, 2007)

Ok, thanks Hong that is very useful.

DarkJester, how exactly does the stance system?  And yes i am a monk going to SS then to SSN.


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## DarkJester (Feb 10, 2007)

Table 3-1 on page 39 tells what the highest level maneuver you can learn is. It is based off of your initiator level. Mountain Tombstone Strike is weird in that it has no maneuver prerequisites but it would still be held to requiring a initiator level of 17+ as per the chart.

Edit: Stances are not a separate system, they use the same initiator level as maneuvers and I believe the cust. service has been saying they count as maneuvers as far as prerequisites are concerned. As I said, you have your stance always active. Switching stances is a swift action if you have more than one, after which you'd immediately gain the benefit of the other stance.


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## Zanthorphs (Feb 10, 2007)

Where would i be able to find the info on the different stances and their benefits, sorry for the stupid question.


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## DarkJester (Feb 10, 2007)

It's no problem Zan. 

They are listed alongside the maneuvers starting on page 48. Directly after the the bold text it will either say Strike, Boost, Counter or Stance. 

For more information just page through to that disciplines section and read the full blurb of course.


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## Nifft (Feb 10, 2007)

The other super-cool thing about choosing maneuvers is that your Initiator level, unlike your spellcaster level, depends on both classes that grant maneuvers (Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade, and the PrCs in that book), but also benefits half from levels of classes that don't.

So, you could qualify for 2nd level maneuvers at 4th level by doing this:

1/ Rogue 1
2/ Rogue 2
3/ Swordsage 1
4/ Swordsage 2

Cheers, -- N


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