# Bias at EnWorld?



## Belen (Sep 9, 2003)

Is there a bias here at EnWorld?

Let me start by saying that I love EnWorld.  In fact, I recently bought a supporter account because I felt bad for using the boards so much and not helping to keep running them.

However, like all familes, we can disagree.  I was wondering, though, if anyone else felt the same way.  I just finished reading the news for the day.  There was a definite slant in the reporting that portrayed the new D20 license change in a poor light.  When I read about the change yesterday, I was very much against WOTC's change, until I had time to think about it, and realize that I did not find the changes as bad as some others seemed to think they would be.

And I see no where in the news that the license change has been planned for the last year!  And this has been confirmed by Anthony Valterra (he was trying to rush a certain book ahead of the change!)

However, both news stories about the change are heavily biased against WOTC.  Instead of reporting on the license change and letting us make the decision, we get a very negative opinion on the impact.  I have noticed such things in the news before, but it never really bothered me before, but I decided to call attention to it now.

Sometimes it feels like there is a definite bias here at EnWorld.  Some ideas are just not as "acceptable" as others, even when stated within the bounds of Eric's grandma.  

I have seen very rational arguments against certain books, be flamed to the ground, with the rational people rather than the flamers blamed.

Maybe it is just that the idea of being unbiased or having rational debates is passe these days.

Dave


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## Joshua Randall (Sep 9, 2003)

Keep in mind that this is a fan site, not a news site. As such all the news reporting here has an inherent bias.

Not that the mainstream news outlets are free of bias, either. They're just more subtle about it.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 9, 2003)

I don't think bias is a good word.  News and informations at ENWorld are options, it is a view, and the writers are not held to a standard, other than good taste, they are not reporters, just gamers with an interest.


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## Harlock (Sep 9, 2003)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Is there a bias here at EnWorld?
> 
> Let me start by saying that I love EnWorld.  In fact, I recently bought a supporter account because I felt bad for using the boards so much and not helping to keep running them.
> 
> ...




Maybe it is a passe idea.  Every news station is sensational.  Even the major players show obvious politcal leanings, which is QUITE contrary to what I was instructed as being ethical in College Journalism courses just 4 years ago.  People change.  Some things never change however; sex, scandal and indignant rage sells papers and gets more attention than rationalism sometimes.  I guess that's just life.  As far as people having a leaning, I can see where EN World would feel a certain way about the new d20STL.

Having said that, I am also happy to say that Russ is not doing this for profit anymore so if he wants to put his spin on his site on his news page, then more power to him.  Like you said, it's sort of a family.  Sure, we'll bicker and disagree, but we're still together and we are still united by a common bond.  Gaming that is, not blood.


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## diaglo (Sep 9, 2003)

i find the news here much like the reviews. but i take what i want and leave the rest.


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 9, 2003)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Is there a bias here at EnWorld?



[/b]

There's bias everywhere man...EN World is no different



> *I just finished reading the news for the day.  There was a definite slant in the reporting that portrayed the new D20 license change in a poor light.  When I read about the change yesterday, I was very much against WOTC's change, until I had time to think about it, and realize that I did not find the changes as bad as some others seemed to think they would be.*




Then you have achieved your stated goal: You considered the given information and drew your won conclusion.

The idea that there is ever an unbiased statement in media is crazy, forget the statement itself, the fact that certain staements are made or not made shows the bias of the reporter or the editorial staff. 

Bias is not a bad thing, I myself am biased against the views of white supremacists, pedophiles and wife beaters, and were i to do a report on any of their views, my bias would likely cast its shadow over the piece.

In this case, I drew my conclusion after reading the opinions of people whose opinions I respect who have more insight into the situation that I do (Ryan Dancey for the most part, but others as well).

You've done the same thing (it would seem that you trust Anthony Valterra's commentary as much as I do), and it has affected your opinion on the news.



> *However, both news stories about the change are heavily biased against WOTC.  Instead of reporting on the license change and letting us make the decision, we get a very negative opinion on the impact.*




Yet somehow, you managed to make a decision contrary to the bias you saw. Mission accomplished.



> *Sometimes it feels like there is a definite bias here at EnWorld.  Some ideas are just not as "acceptable" as others, even when stated within the bounds of Eric's grandma.*




That communities develop standards cannot be news to you. The prevailing culture here at En World is biased toward the third-party D20 Publishers. Ever has it been and ever shall it be. The 3rd party folks are present, active and helpful. When the core of the license that allows them to prosper is changed to protect a monolithic corporation, then yes, you can expect bias to lean in support of the people we know.

This is a community. Communities rally around their members. It's the way of the world (or it should be). 



> *I have seen very rational arguments against certain books, be flamed to the ground, with the rational people rather than the flamers blamed.*





Me too. it happens all the time. I've seen people expressing unpopular opinions get slammed more than once (hi Snoweel ).

Hell, I've _been_ the slamee more than once (Hi Piratecate )

But in the final analysis, to pretend (or expect) that community standards should not reflect the community that creates them is a hard statement to get behind.



> *Maybe it is just that the idea of being unbiased or having rational debates is passe these days.*




You'll win no points by placing yourself as the one free thinker in Stepford man Lots of people here hold opinions contrary to the majority. They are allowed to express them at will (so long as Eric's Grandma doesn't bring the hammer down...fascist ol' lady )

But nobody has to agree with them. If you have a point, try and make it. People can be swayed. But to imply that the starting point for your argument should be moved somewhere other than where the prevailing sentiment places it is not going to win you any converts.


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## Morrus (Sep 9, 2003)

I guess one man's bias is another's opinion.  I think it's odd that anyone can look at the main page and claim that EN World is biased against WotC - EN World is, 90%, a WotC fan site and I spend a lot of time promoting WotC stuff! 

I wrote the news item last night, and I've been out of town since. I've only become aware that AV has said anything just now (from your post above).  I'll look for that later (unless someone wants to point me at it).


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## Brother Shatterstone (Sep 9, 2003)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i find the news here much like the reviews. but i take what i want and leave the rest.



I think that hits the nail right on the head.

Everybody and everything has a bias.  It’s just part of being human.


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## Belen (Sep 9, 2003)

I agree with you on most counts, Diaglo, except that nasty bent towards older editions.  

Of course, I love to argue/ debate, so my natural proclivities tend to be used more than often here at EnWorld where I can hang out with people who share more in common with me than "normals."

However, I intend to play a wait an see game with WOTC.  I have participated in more than my fair share of "sky (WOTC) is falling arguments" and I am usually wrong about the demise of the hobby anyway.

However, a little less bias in the new could be a good thing, imo.

Dave


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## Nightfall (Sep 9, 2003)

Is En World Biased? Well depends...I mean more biased than say some of the people out in the real world? Probably not.  More biased than me? Very doubtful!  (No I'm not THAT biased but I am hardly unbiased either.  )


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## Desdichado (Sep 9, 2003)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Hell, I've [/i]been_ the slamee more than once (Hi Piratecate )_



_
Hey, now!  Is that a subtle dig at PC's masculinity?      

I'd say there is certainly bias at enworld.  As TB says, there's a bias towards third party publishers, I think.  There's also a bias in favor of DMs over players that's been commented on many times.  Then again, there's bias in every community -- online or otherwise -- to which I belong.  It doesn't affect my own personal biases any, though.  _


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## Ferret (Sep 9, 2003)

News is what the writer says not what happens. Even by accident bias leeks in.


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 9, 2003)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> *Hey, now!  Is that a subtle dig at PC's masculinity?      *





Heh, no. I think measured by any yardstick that's a dig at _mine_ 



> *...There's also a bias in favor of DMs over players that's been commented on many times....*




May it never change!


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## Belen (Sep 9, 2003)

Teflon,

I do agree with you, but I thought this may be a question that the people of EnWorld would enjoy discussing/ thinking about, so I decided to throw something into the ring.

Morrus,

here is the quote from AV:



> Folks,
> 
> So, yes, it is me. I'm trying to standardize my name to ACValterra. I used Zulkir when I was with WotC. I use ACValterra on the boards on our site (www.valarproject.com).
> 
> ...


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## Morrus (Sep 9, 2003)

Actually, I don't see any particular bias in my news item.  I just re-read it, and apart from a minor dig at WotC for responding with a boilerplate statement, both news items just say "X said this, and B said this" in the order in which they said it.  I've added the latest quote, from AV, which was written by him after I wrote the news item.


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## Morrus (Sep 9, 2003)

Thanks, BelenUmeria.  I found it just before you posted it!


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## johnsemlak (Sep 9, 2003)

EN World's messageboard definitely has a pro-d20 and pro third-party slant, though I'm not sure if that means anti-WotC necessarily.

Also, the EN World's messageboards and the EN World news site are somewhat different entities, particularly in this regard.

As far as EN World bias against WotC at EN World and by Morrus in particular, I think it might be worth pointing out that when the news of 3.5 leaked out Morrus and others were quick to defend WotC on the messageboards and later on the News site.  In the past news items have been posted at the news site to clarify WotC's position on things during various online WotC-bashing sessions (when WotC laid off several people, Morrus posted a lengthy quote from Monte Cook which tried to dispell numerous outrigh myths about how evil WotC was)


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## Belen (Sep 9, 2003)

Morrus,

I tried!  That was the only successful post of three.    

Dave


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## fusangite (Sep 9, 2003)

I'm with BelenUmeria in that I disagree with ENWorld's attitude towards the license changes. That said, I agree that basically all modern publications are biased; what is upsetting is when a publication (and I'm thinking especially of North American daily newspapers and TV newscasts) pretend at being unbiased. Now _that_ is tiresome.


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 9, 2003)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Teflon,
> 
> I do agree with you, but I thought this may be a question that the people of EnWorld would enjoy discussing/ thinking about...




Ahh, ok. I just thought that your comment....



> *...Maybe it is just that the idea of being unbiased or having rational debates is passe these days...*




..Sounded not so much like you "throwing a topic into the ring" as being passive/agreesive sarcasm aimed at placing your point of view above that of the rank and file of EN World.

Given that your post was a call for less bias; this seemed a mite hypocritical.


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## reapersaurus (Sep 9, 2003)

darn good topic.

Thought-provoking, and leads to self-examination.
All Good Things.


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## Belen (Sep 9, 2003)

I try to avoid bias, however, I am sadly lacking in that area and can develop strong opinions on matters.

The last comment of my first post was more of a general "this is how the world works these days" rather than trying to say that "I am not like this and why are you" statement.

I actually do think that decrying media bias is passe these days.  Unfortunately, I am worried that one day no one will ever have to listen to a opinion other than their own.

That will be a sad day.

Dave


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 9, 2003)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> ..Unfortunately, I am worried that one day no one will ever have to listen to a opinion other than their own.
> 
> That will be a sad day...




Then why do you want a move away from bias? Personal bias is the very heart of discourse.


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## Desdichado (Sep 9, 2003)

It seems more likely that people will be spoon-fed opinions and not question them to me, but that's probably not appropriate material for discussion on these boards.


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## diaglo (Sep 9, 2003)

Of course my own bias leads me to say:

Original D&D (1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.


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## Belen (Sep 9, 2003)

True, but bias should be on the part of the individual and not the majority.

For example, what it five different EnWorld existed.  Each EnWorld would cater to a subset of people.  Yeah, they may have disagreements sometimes, but they mainly agreed on all the big things and each person supported the authors arguments so you always felt good about the way you felt on a matter.  

Worse, what would happen if you could turn on the TV and always here your viewpoint, so that all was always right in to world.  Eventuall, the bias that you watched initially because you agreed with it, would form your opinion period and thus what they say becomes your view on any topic that you could consider.      

This is why I would prefer the facts for news and allow my own opinion to form.

Then shoot my mouth off on the boards and have you all jump down my throat.    

However, I would prefer civil jumping down of the throat and constructive arguments rather than flames.    

Dave


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## Piratecat (Sep 9, 2003)

diaglo said:
			
		

> Of course my own bias leads me to say:
> 
> Original D&D (1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.




You know, I've heard that somewhere before, but I can't remember where. Huh.

Incidentally, folks, Teflon Billy is proud to announce that he will be changing his user name to "Teflon Nipple." It's radical, but he's a radical sort of guy.  

On a more serious note, I'm not sure that our fondness for 3rd party d20 publishers isn't based on the fact that many of them hang out here. I for one would love it if more WotC folks posted on the messageboards, and I celebrate the ones that do.


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## Henry (Sep 9, 2003)

And in my own totally biased opinion, this thread belongs over in Meta, since it concerns the forums and the community in general.

_Sccchhhlinng!_


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## Pants (Sep 9, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Incidentally, folks, Teflon Billy is proud to announce that he will be changing his user name to "Teflon Nipple." It's radical, but he's a radical sort of guy.



I guess he'll have to be OGL then   
Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## Morrus (Sep 9, 2003)

I'd be interested to hear from those who disagree with my opinion on the subject - what is my opinion, exactly?  Thus far, I have refrained form offering one (although I probably will do so in a few days once all the info is in).


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## Umbran (Sep 9, 2003)

When considering the notion of bias, you must also consider that bias does not neccessarily all coome from the reporter.  Much also comes from the sources.  If the sources are biased, the reportage will have to be as well.

So far, we've got the new license itself, and statements from three major sources - Ryan Dancey, Anthony Valterra, and WotC itself.  Dancey and Valterra don't like the change, and WotC's statement is more corporate than personal, meaning it comes across as fairly empty of emotion.  So, the overall percieved weight will seem against the change, even before any reporter gets their hands on it.


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## BSF (Sep 9, 2003)

Well, in regards to my opinion on the D20STL changes, I have put my opinion in the Publishers forum.  For those that care, feel free to read it there.

Now, as for bias...

I do not agree that EN World seems to be overly biased.  Reading the News article, I think Morrus is a bit frustrated because Andy's post seemed to avoid a lot of the issues that many people were hoping would be addressed.  Perhaps frustrated is even too strong a word.  Maybe I am projecting my bias on what I think Morrus should be saying?  

Anyway, it might be that boilerplate responses from companies (Or any organization, for that matter.) are falling on many jaded ears.

Bias does happen.  I am biased.  I would like to think that I am (usually) smart enough (Or would that be a Sense Motive on myself?  So, I am hoping I am wise enough?) to recognize it and try to act accordingly.  I am a bit cynical and tend to think that everyone has a bias and an agenda.  

In fact, I want some bias.  That means people have opinions.  I want to hear opinions.  Even if I disagree, I am much likely to respect that you can think rather than just toeing the party line.  Look at it this way:  If you put up a thread even mentioning Scarred Lands, you *know* that Nightfall will respond.  If you read his sig, you even have a pretty good idea that he will provide a positive opinion.  Is that bad?  Heck no!  You know he is biased, but that does not automatically invalidate his thoughts.  In fact, Nightfall will suggest non-Scarred Lands product to people as well.  (Hey Nightfall, I'm not picking on you, I promise.  But, you are a great example of some bias, so I chose to use that.)

I do agree with you BelenUmeria.  When people begin to accept other peoples opinions without every questioning them, we end up with a poor substitute for thinking.  

However, I will express my opinion that many of us are a little edgy lately.  Many of the discussions that I have seen you participating in (No criticism, how would I see that if I weren't in there also!  ) are the type that are somewhat sensitive.  I think that if the recent news had been reported a year ago, before the BoEF had ever been announced, Morrus' reporting on it wouldn't seem as biased.  Having said that, I further incriminate myself in that response!  When I first read Morrus' news this morning, I thought it sounded biased as well.  After my initial reaction, I went back and re-read it and discovered that I laced his news with my opinions and projected what I thought he was saying onto it.  

Again, no criticism on anyone here.  If I were going to criticise, I would have to begin with myself!


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## Dinkeldog (Sep 9, 2003)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> However, I will express my opinion that many of us are a little edgy lately.




I've been told it's a by-product of Mars in perigee.


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 9, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> ...Incidentally, folks, Teflon Billy is proud to announce that he will be changing his user name to "Teflon Nipple." It's radical, but he's a radical sort of guy.  ...




I hate when you spoil my surprises

C'mon folks, Piratecat is right; this is no place to talk about nipples


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## jdavis (Sep 9, 2003)

I haven't noticed any real bias on the main page but as far as the messageboard goes, well there will always be somebody to disagree with anything anyone post on the messageboards, there is a lot of bias and slanting and just downright goading of other posters that happens here, but that's just part of the fun

As far as the real world, just watch 30 minutes of CNN and then watch 30 minutes of Fox News. there is enough bias on real world news between the two you would think they were talking about totally different news stories, it's just part of how things work in the real world. (that's why I get my news from the Daily show).


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## ColonelHardisson (Sep 9, 2003)

Someone should make a "sky falling" smiley. A bit of a _non sequitor_, I know, but it hit me while I was reading this thread (but it wasn't motivated by anything posted here, thankfully).

Used to be these kinds of occurrences would come along, and the resulting flame wars and discussions would be kinda fun to read or participate in. Nowadays, I have to admit that they don't have the same luster. 

To address something AV said about those who blamed the BoEF for prompting WotC's action - I'm not sure anyone should have to eat their words. I mean, people were using the information given to them, which led to a pretty logical deduction. It's like saying "boy, aren't you stupid for not knowing a secret piece of information!" People do leap to conclusions way too quickly in a lot of cases, but this seemed like there was a pretty direct correlation.


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## Desdichado (Sep 10, 2003)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> C'mon folks, Piratecat is right; this is no place to talk about nipples



Absolutely right.  You should go to the nipple section of Nutkinland, where the only topic of discussion is nipple's -- from big hairy man nipples to what's best to put on a bottle for a 2 month old.  Teflon Nipple's thread over there has all the details.


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## Henry (Sep 10, 2003)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> I've been told it's a by-product of Mars in perigee.




I don't like Pierogies - potato and pasta gets too starchy for me.


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## S'mon (Sep 10, 2003)

I agree with TB et al that EN World definitely has a pro-3rd party d20 publisher slant.  I can't see how that's a bad thing, every message board or news outlet has its own atmosphere.  In EN World's case it means that when WoTC does things that help 3rd party d20 publishers it's praised, when it hinders them it's criticised.  It also mean the EN World mood is more pro-author's rights/publisher's rights, and more anti-copyright infringement, than you'd probably find on most Internet boards, for instance.


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## Dinkeldog (Sep 10, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> As far as the real world, just watch 30 minutes of CNN and then watch 30 minutes of Fox News. there is enough bias on real world news between the two you would think they were talking about totally different news stories, it's just part of how things work in the real world. (that's why I get my news from the Daily show).




"More Americans get their news from the Daily Show than probably should."


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## Welverin (Sep 10, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I for one would love it if more WotC folks posted on the messageboards, and I celebrate the ones that do.




Is anyone left? All of the WotC folks I remember seeing post here have left the company (I smell a conspiracy).

Of course I don't make it to the publishers forum so maybe I'm just missing them.


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## Pigeon (Sep 13, 2003)

I personally have never noticed any bias on EN world’s roleplaying news page, but then again I don't actually go anywhere else for my RPG news so for all I know WotC could be at this very point planning to give away copies of all its books free to anyone who sends a stamped addressed envelope.

However, I'm not particularly worried about bias from EN world as it has a face (i.e. Morrus) that I can recognise as individuals with an individual viewpoint.  Where it starts to get tricky is where the news source is a faceless entity which claims to be impartial, such as the whole BBC vs. the government thing going on at the moment.  In an ideal world we would never trust a single source, however in reality that's just too much effort for most of us


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## Cedric (Sep 13, 2003)

How could a moderated forum not have bias? If you don't care for the methods, means and reasons for which the forum is moderated (in other words, the built in bias), then choose a different forum. 

Cedric


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