# Heroes Season [Volume] 2 (#32)---11/19/07-'Cautionary Tales'



## Truth Seeker (Nov 19, 2007)

*Cautionary Tales*​
*Star*:  Jack Coleman (Noah Bennet),  Hayden Panettiere (Claire Bennet),  Masi Oka (Hiro Nakamura),  Kristen Bell (Elle Bishop),  Sendhil Ramamurthy (Mohinder Suresh),  Greg Grunberg (Matt Parkman),  Dania Ramirez (Maya Herrera),  Zachary Quinto (Sylar),  Noah Gray-Cabey (Micah Sanders),  Dana Davis (Monica Dawson),  James Kyson Lee (Ando Masahashi),  Ali Larter (Niki Sanders),  Adrian Pasdar (Nathan Petrelli)  

*Recurring Role*:  Shalim Ortiz (Alejandro Herrera),  Nicholas D'Agosto (West),  Adair Tishler (Molly Walker),  Stephen Tobolowsky (Robert "Bob" Bishop)  

*Guest Star*:  George Takei (Kaito Nakamura)  


Mr. Bennet prepares to move his family when he thinks the Company has found them, but Claire doesn't like the idea. Hiro returns to the present and upon discovering his father's death, travels back in time to stop it. Meanwhile, Matt works to master his new mental abilities while Maya has to choose between Alejandro and Sylar.​


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## fba827 (Nov 19, 2007)

Yeah, more George Takei ! Albeit from a time travel experience.  Maybe we'll learn what (if any) power he had


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## Darkwolf71 (Nov 19, 2007)

fba827 said:
			
		

> Yeah, more George Takei ! Albeit from a time travel experience.  Maybe we'll learn what (if any) power he had



If we're _real_ lucky, Hiro will be able to save his father. I'm not holding my breath for it though.


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## Fast Learner (Nov 19, 2007)

"Maya has to choose between Alejandro and Sylar" says to me that the this particular story will _continue_ to plod along. Gah!


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## Ilium (Nov 20, 2007)

"Did you pack Mr. Muggles' doggy bath?"

Best line evar! 

Yet another reminder (as if we needed it) that you do NOT mess with Noah Bennett.


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## Ilium (Nov 20, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> If we're _real_ lucky, Hiro will be able to save his father. I'm not holding my breath for it though.




Yeah, he's already making "This is my fate" noises.  I have to say I'm getting a little tired of the whole "time travel can't actually change anything" bit.  I think it would be better if Hiro somehow lost his time travel ability and just stuck to teleporting and kicking butt with his sword.  And being a big ol' geek of course.


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## Richards (Nov 20, 2007)

Nooooooo!  Not HRG!  He's too cool of a character to die!

Hopefully Claire's blood can fix this or something....

Johnathan


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 20, 2007)

I still don't get the "history can't be changed" due to all the changes to history, but oh well.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 20, 2007)

Richards said:
			
		

> Nooooooo!  Not HRG!  He's too cool of a character to die!
> 
> Hopefully Claire's blood can fix this or something....
> 
> Johnathan





That was my first thought, "easily reversed with blood", but eh. He died as he should have and hopefully they leave the death meaning something.

That said, this show is horrid with guns. They're all using custom STI's and playing with the hammers a bit much, let alone getting shot in the eye should had more of an "effect"...


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 20, 2007)

And, so much for that.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 20, 2007)

Well that death lasted five minutes.


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## Richards (Nov 20, 2007)

Yessssss!  HRG!  He's obviously too cool a character to die!

Whew!

Johnathan


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## Ilium (Nov 20, 2007)

Ok.  He's back.  No big surprise (I was certain of it when Bob took some of Claire's blood).  Of course that means they'll still have to grab Claire to fix Niki (Nikki?  whatever).

And yes, people in movies and TV in general are constantly pulling back revolver hammers, working the slide on automatics and pumping shotguns.  I love it when somebody just pulls a gun out of the holster and it makes clicky hammer noises.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 20, 2007)

I sat down with my laptop, fully expecting to pay half attention and work on my presentation tomorrow.

That didn't work out.

This was the best episode this season, by far.

Lots of great lines ("Oh, uh... nice to see you again Mrs. Bennett!") by everyone.  Even West didn't grate as much.

The best part was the callback to Claire's first post-death experience.


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## DonTadow (Nov 20, 2007)

I saw the blood thing coming but the episode still rocks despite his flaws. Can't stand the bandwagon watchers  ( don't like this one thing i'm not watching in anymore... fine watch cbs)

That wsaid i don't like the way mohinder is written this season. He's just dumb and i don't understand his motivation. I go back to him saying that bob is gray at best.  I hope sylar kills, cuts up, tortures mohinder. 

Speaking of which, thank goodness. It took the twins 10 boring weeks to get to the mexican border and one week to get to new york city. 

Eh I take my time travel with a grain of salt.  I think hiro could very well play god and he could have just took his father away by force, but that is not what a hero does. That's selfish. That's the moral of time travel. You can use it to change terrible events, to benefit, but even then you can only nudge people in the right direction and not change it directly. 

I wonder what will happen when sylar gets ahold of el.


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## Alzrius (Nov 20, 2007)

Holy crap, this episode rocked on toast! How good was it? It was so good that even West actually seemed cool!

The thing with using Claire's blood to bring Bennett back was obvious, I admit, but I had a true moment of fear there, both before I figured that out, and in thinking that maybe that wouldn't be what they did (or it wouldn't work). Even so though...best death scene in the show thus far. The bullet time way he was shot, slowly falling over, and then the image that was shown in the painting...perfectly done.

I have to say, HRG is proving to be the best character on the show thus far. He's like Batman, showing that you don't need powers to be able to go toe-to-toe with people who have them; you just need to be smarter.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 20, 2007)

Well, was right on the blood thing, now to see who else creeps out of the grave.


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## Darkwolf71 (Nov 20, 2007)

Mohinder has gone from one of my favorite characters (last year) to OMG this stupid prick needs to die. And not by Sylar, oh no. HRG needs to put a gun to his head. "Hey, remember that day you killed me, down by the shore?"   

The bad part of the episode? Once again, they bring a character back from the dead only to kill him off again. That said, I hope Hiro goes all vigilante on Adam/Kensai 'Future Hiro' style.


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## Valerian (Nov 20, 2007)

*Keito's Power*



			
				fba827 said:
			
		

> Yeah, more George Takei ! Albeit from a time travel experience.  Maybe we'll learn what (if any) power he had




I'm fairly sure that Keito's power was his ability to Teach, as demonstrated by his ability to make Hiro more or less a master with the sword in a few hours of practice.  I also suspect Hiro's sister learned how to run the Nakamura corporation from Keito in a similar fashion.


Valerian


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## WayneLigon (Nov 20, 2007)

Valerian said:
			
		

> I'm fairly sure that Keito's power was his ability to Teach, as demonstrated by his ability to make Hiro more or less a master with the sword in a few hours of practice.  I also suspect Hiro's sister learned how to run the Nakamura corporation from Keito in a similar fashion.




Oh, very good idea.

Loved the episode


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 20, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Holy crap, this episode rocked on toast! How good was it? It was so good that even West actually seemed cool!



I think it was the Elle addition, she gives a good jolt to any plotline she's involved in.



> The thing with using Claire's blood to bring Bennett back was obvious, I admit, but I had a true moment of fear there, both before I figured that out, and in thinking that maybe that wouldn't be what they did (or it wouldn't work).




I figured Claire might figure it out and save her dad, but I guess that'd be too heroic...


> Even so though...best death scene in the show thus far. The bullet time way he was shot, slowly falling over, and then the image that was shown in the painting...perfectly done.



They matched the painting well, but of course, as I've mentioned before, Isaac's paintings ARE fallible, so the constant "it can't be changed" attitude this season was bleh. For a moment I thought they might actually let him die, just like for a moment I thought Bob was giving Claire the virus rather than draining blood. (Followed by the virus mutating in her and wiping out civilization...)

Now I'm left wondering why the Company didn't go to the Bennet house and take Claire afterwards.



> I have to say, HRG is proving to be the best character on the show thus far. He's like Batman, showing that you don't need powers to be able to go toe-to-toe with people who have them; you just need to be smarter.




Smart enough not to trust Mohinder at least. Sure, Bennet can shoot Elle in the arm, but dumb@$$ Mohinder has to aim for the eye.

As for regeneration from death, it still irks me somewhat, but oh well. No one is ever dead in a comic anyway. (Sure coulda used Haitian tonight though...)

Also, when said about Adam "regeneration after a time <something something> old age" were they saying that his ultimate threat is because he's immune to aging? Did the Company really lock the guy up for not aging?


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## Grog (Nov 20, 2007)

Excuse me, but wasn't the whole "Claire hates and doesn't trust her father" plotline done last season? They are rehashing the exact same ground here. Come on - we've seen this storyline already. Can we please move on?

And Kristin Bell is a great actress, but she has been totally wasted in this role.

All I can say is, I'm glad I don't have a lot invested in this show, because this season would have really pissed me off otherwise.

Oh, and West - I was so sad that Claire broke his fall. Why couldn't it have been the other way around?


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 20, 2007)

I don't think it was Claire's blood that was used on Mr. Bennett.  I don't think that the Company has any reason to revive Mr. Bennett since I seriously doubt that they would risk him getting revenge (I'm pretty sure that he would kill Mohinder at the first available moment).  However, if anyone would want to bring back Noah, I'm pretty sure it would be an enemy of the Company... like Adam.




			
				Grog said:
			
		

> Excuse me, but wasn't the whole "Claire hates and doesn't trust her father" plotline done last season? They are rehashing the exact same ground here. Come on - we've seen this storyline already. Can we please move on?




If you read each week's topic you would have noticed how everyone where wished that plot line was not revived this season.  Fortunately, I'm pretty sure that it is FINALLY dead as a result of HGR's turn towards trusting West.




> Oh, and West - I was so sad that Claire broke his fall. Why couldn't it have been the other way around?




Believe me, most of us were.... only thing that sucks is that if he did died during this episode it would have been after he started becoming a slightly less irritating character.  What's funy is that teaming him up with Noah and Elle actually improved his character.


Sadly, out of every character that appeared in today's episode, I feel sorry for Lyle Bennet.  Not only did he have less screen time then Mr. Muggles, and is only used as a prop, but no one in his family cares enough for him to console him about his dad getting killed.  That is, assuming someone told him what happened.


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## fba827 (Nov 20, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> I don't think it was Claire's blood that was used on Mr. Bennett.  From where I stand the Company has no reason to revive Mr. Bennett (since he will take Bob and Mohinder out if he's not mind wiped immediately).  I actually think it might have be Adam and Peter who brought him back.




I was going to post the exact same thing.

We don't know who revived him.

Access to blood: Bob, Claire, Adam, Peter, or someone else
Reason to revive him: Claire, Adam (if they were working together to bring down the company since they both have the same goal), and only by a far stretch Bob, Mohinder (guilt?)
Access to that type of facility: Bob, Adam, Mohinder
Access to the body: since we don't know what happened after the show-down, we only know that Bob and Mohinder definetly had access to the body.



Mind you, I admit I have not completely thought this out, but Adam does seem to fall in to all three categories, and Mohinder pops up a lot too.  Not saying that Bob isn't a strong possibility, just saying we can't rule out that Bob isn't the only one who could have done it.


As for Mohinder shooting him in the eye, I can only guess (and it's the only way I will feel better  ) that Mohinder did it in the eye specifically because he was thinking about the painting he already saw.


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## Truth Seeker (Nov 20, 2007)

Fate cannot be broken, but a little blood on the healing side can hurt.  

Damn, what a twist.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 20, 2007)

To have Bennett is to have Claire.  To convert Bennett is to bring the Company together, in one direction, he is a resourse without equal and someone Bob needs to help him run things.  Bennett was the bigger prize, he knows too much.


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## fba827 (Nov 20, 2007)

Also, anyone else notice that basically half the picture of the "old generation" went untouched in terms of who those people are or reference to them or meeting them ...

wonder if we'll learn about them later on.  We only know (through whatever Matt did to investigate) that none of them are still alive (except that last one next to his father).  Or else they could just be hiding really well, etc. 

just random thoughts from my sleep deprived brain.  carry on.


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## D.Shaffer (Nov 20, 2007)

As much as I enjoyed the episode...did they REALLY need to bring out the old 'The last thing I said to him was 'I hate you!'' chestnut?


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 20, 2007)

A few thoughts:

First, must Elle grope every man that they put her in proximity to? Her father must be so proud.

Second, nobody has commented on the fact that, after having been berated by Ma Patrelli that he would be his father if he took the last name from her, in the final scene, he HAD  the name. Another step toward dark Parkman?

Third, I still think that Bob is the master manipulator in all of this. Eventually it will turn out that he and Adam had a plan hatched from the beginning. One thing speaking against this: Ma P. confirmed that they locked him away for 30 years. But there are wheels within wheels here. We don't yet have the whole picture.

Fourth, West IS actually growing on me. I like awkward and eager West a lot more than dark and brooding outsider-stalker boy West.

Fifth, despite the synopsis above, no snooze twins! Yay!


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 20, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> The bad part of the episode? Once again, they bring a character back from the dead only to kill him off again. That said, I hope Hiro goes all vigilante on Adam/Kensai 'Future Hiro' style.




See I liked the way they handled this. Because they did not bring him back from the dead. They explained the story of what happened right before he died. 


Also, was it that big of a shocker that Adam was the one who killed Hiro's dad.


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 20, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> Excuse me, but wasn't the whole "Claire hates and doesn't trust her father" plotline done last season? They are rehashing the exact same ground here. Come on - we've seen this storyline already. Can we please move on?




You only noticed that now. It was like that 3 or 4 episodes in.


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 20, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Sadly, out of every character that appeared in today's episode, I feel sorry for Lyle Bennet.  Not only did he have less screen time then Mr. Muggles, and is only used as a prop, but no one in his family cares enough for him to console him about his dad getting killed.  That is, assuming someone told him what happened.




That is just mean man.


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## Grymar (Nov 20, 2007)

I just thought of another way that this show is similar to Lost...everyone has daddy issues.   This isn't an insult, but an interesting observation.  The relationships with daddy aren't always so terrible as on Lost, but the Father-Child relationship is a key in many of the character's development.

I loved that Hiro finally realized that his place isn't to go back in time to change it, but it is to gather information to help the future.  Trying to change history is a messy, difficult thing.  

HRG is the best character and actor on this show, no question.

Kristen Bell is electrifying and fun to watch. Sure she's a bit over the top, but that's her role and she is doing it with wonderful enthusiasm.

Only 2 episodes left?  AAHHHRRGGHH!


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 20, 2007)

What was HRG explanation to Elle about her father (Bob). I could not make it out. What did he to her? I picked up on the Hatian's involvement, but not the other part.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 20, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> What was HRG explanation to Elle about her father (Bob). I could not make it out. What did he to her? I picked up on the Hatian's involvement, but not the other part.



He impllied she was given to Bob, having been taken from her birth parents.  Making a leap here, meaning she was made into the person she was, aka not normal.  I think this is the biggest reason to think Bob as evil, the way Elle was raised.  This may also be why they are rehashing the relationship Claire has with Bennett, to show the how much a loving family life has on a person.


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## Grymar (Nov 20, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> He impllied she was given to Bob, having been taken from her birth parents.  Making a leap here, meaning she was made into the person she was, aka not normal.  I think this is the biggest reason to think Bob as evil, the way Elle was raised.  This may also be why they are rehashing the relationship Claire has with Bennett, to show the how much a loving family life has on a person.




Interesting....I didn't pick up the "taken from her birth parents" part.  I thought she was Bob's actual daughter but he allowed the Company to experiment on her, which pushed her abilities much farther than they would have developed.  This also had the unintended consequence of somewhat shattering her mind.


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 20, 2007)

Grymar said:
			
		

> Interesting....I didn't pick up the "taken from her birth parents" part.  I thought she was Bob's actual daughter but he allowed the Company to experiment on her, which pushed her abilities much farther than they would have developed.  This also had the unintended consequence of somewhat shattering her mind.




I took the nuts part as a side effect of the Hatian wiping her mind so many times. Sort of like the effect that was happening to Claire's mom in season one


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## Grog (Nov 20, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> You only noticed that now. It was like that 3 or 4 episodes in.



Actually, I've had that problem with this season for a while now. It was just especially annoying in this week's episode.

EDIT: Also, the Hiro storyline of him going back in time to save someone and finding out he can't is a rehash from season 1, too. Do the writers not have any new ideas for the show?


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 20, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> EDIT: Also, the Hiro storyline of him going back in time to save someone and finding out he can't is a rehash from season 1, too. Do the writers not have any new ideas for the show?




It's a different plotline then the previous one.  During Season one he learned that Charlie was doomed to begin with and unfortunately, Hiro's power activated so we never saw how things in the present were changed.  For all we know charlie died because she was waiting in Midland for Hiro to return only to discover that it was a different version of Hiro....

This time around things were different because he allowed it to happen even though Hiro could have still stopped it if he went against his father's wishes.  This time the lesson wasn't that some things can not be altered.  It was that somethings should not be altered (even when you have the ability to alter them) because once you begin meddling with the past for selffish reasons then you would cease to be a hero.  Kaito was teaching Hiro a lesson in responsibility.


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## Phoenix8008 (Nov 20, 2007)

Now when they are talking about only 2 episodes left, that's till the mid-season break right? They aren't cutting the whole season down to these episodes are they?


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 20, 2007)

Phoenix8008 said:
			
		

> Now when they are talking about only 2 episodes left, that's till the mid-season break right? They aren't cutting the whole season down to these episodes are they?




It depends on how long the strike goes on.  If it's a significant amount of time, then it probably will be the end of the season.  Negotiations are supposedly resuming on Monday, so hopefully there will be some resolution soon.

The problem is that even if an agreement is reached, there's a lag period between when they start writing and when they can put episodes on the air.  Keep in mind as well that most shows are burning through their buffers right now; most shows are not completed in only a week.  So once an agreement is reached, it will probably be at least a month before shows can start airing again, and almost certainly not on a regular schedule.

From what I understand, if the strike goes on into next year, say February, there's a decent chance of the whole season being scrapped.  However, I'm not of the exact timeline for this, and maybe someone else can jump in here.  I imagine a lot of it depends on what the networks want to do.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 20, 2007)

So, Parkman is following a dark path. I wonder how Angela took the final question physically.

I already suspected that Adam killed Hiros father, once we knew he survived the Kensei times. We needed a character that could take the fall and not be found by the cops. 
Flyers (Nathan?) and Regenerating characters fit this description pretty well. Once Adam appeared, it was the most likely solution.

And the HRG & Company storyline was well done. All characters were interesting (I don't count Claire's brother as character here. By the way, I liked the Mr.Muggles figure/"doll" in the packing scene. I can really see a market for "Mr.Muggles" action figures. 2-12 people is a market, is it not?), and you didn't really know how things would turn out. 
I constantly expected the episode to come to a sudden end, because I couldn't believe that they could bring the painting-inspired storylines to an end so soon. (But then, i didn't think of the strike and the mid-season finale looming). I consider this a positive thing. 
The episode was very nice.


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## Simplicity (Nov 20, 2007)

I liked the episode... even with the glaring plot hole.  Okay, so Claire's blood brings people back from the dead.  And they had Adam in captivity for 30 years?  Why then did they need Claire at all? Didn't they bother to get some of Adam's blood?  Why not?  Wouldn't that have been a good idea?  Hell, if I were the company I'd have installed a spigot in the guy.


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## Richards (Nov 20, 2007)

[Miracle Max] He was only a _little_ dead! [/Miracle Max]

Johnathan


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 20, 2007)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> I liked the episode... even with the glaring plot hole.  Okay, so Claire's blood brings people back from the dead.  And they had Adam in captivity for 30 years?  Why then did they need Claire at all? Didn't they bother to get some of Adam's blood?  Why not?  Wouldn't that have been a good idea?  Hell, if I were the company I'd have installed a spigot in the guy.




Because the blood has to be fresh. It's power to heal is not a physical or chemical property - it is in many respects a mystical one tied to the person with the power and not fully understood.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 21, 2007)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> I liked the episode... even with the glaring plot hole.  Okay, so Claire's blood brings people back from the dead.  And they had Adam in captivity for 30 years?  Why then did they need Claire at all? Didn't they bother to get some of Adam's blood?  Why not?  Wouldn't that have been a good idea?  Hell, if I were the company I'd have installed a spigot in the guy.





This does complicate Sylar for me. He was taken by IMO, either Company or minions of Adam. The Company at the time had Adam (and could heal Sylar) and if it was Adam, then he could have done something... but I guess the timing is off.



Anyway, to nitpick as usual;
1) If your Company depends on the Man Who Makes Gold... don't send him into the field.

2) If an Evil Company Man kidnaps you from your home, then kills your father, and you escape... don't return to that same home and act like you're invisible.

3) If you've got a Superior Mutant Tracker... pinpoint the Target Mutant when she's alone and kidnap her, don't lay an ambush for her psycho murderer father.

4) If you don't want to kill your buddy, the psycho murderer father... pack your Taser in addition to your STI.


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## DonTadow (Nov 21, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> You only noticed that now. It was like that 3 or 4 episodes in.



I'm having a problem with this argument.  It's like saying that pcs follow the same storyline in rpgs.  

Players go somewhere and use their traditional abilities to save someone. In that case you're always gong to have the same storyline. 

I don't mind an uneasy relationship between hrg and claire. I"m not a fan of pretty little endings and the fact that in the back of her mind she still resents the fact that he did some awful things makes for more realism.


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## Pseudonym (Nov 21, 2007)

Good episode.

I mentioned the using healing blood to undo the bullet in the eye thing to one of my coworkers last week.  Somewhat predictable, but I think it have been better for the scene with Noah waking up beginning next Monday's episode rather than ending this one.  Sure we knew he wasn't getting killed off permanently, but at least a week's cliff hanger would have been nice.

Interesting to see that Elle is not immune to her own powers.

West wasn't as annoying, but I was hoping he would be a casualty this episode.

No Dominican snooze twins is a good thing.


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## GandhitheBFG (Nov 21, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Also, was it that big of a shocker that Adam was the one who killed Hiro's dad.




It was to Hiro. He thought Kensei was dead. Now he knows that he survived the explosion, and the intervening three hundred years. Which is a fairly big deal, since the only other character who knows is Parkman, who seems to be going to the dark side.

I was hoping West would join Adam, and get killed by the good guys at some point...However, I might change my mind...

Also, did HRG's cell/ward seem a little haphazard to anyone else? Rather like Sylar's...? A possible hint towards non-company involvement.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 21, 2007)

I don't think that Parkman is going to the dark side. I think he is a normal man - with normal feelings, normal faults and an essential humanity.  That average schlubb has been given a power of mind control that Internet fan-fiction suggests is the singular _fuel for fantasy and abuse_.

How would you fare with such a power?

When Parkman decides to know Elle and Claire  a whole lot better - at the same time - you might place him in the darkside camp.   For now, the identity of a woman in a photo, the forced identification of a serial murderer and a command to just be a normal kid and eat your cereal is not yet a path to the darkside. And telling a boss to let you pursue a murder case which is most definitely _not_ closed so you can, in fact, do the job you were hired to do is not THAT morally gray.

"_These aren't the droids you are looking for_" != _"Discussing the location of the secret rebel base_"

Placed on a spectrum, is eating cereal and compelling someone to reveal a name more like "not the droids" or "revealing the location of the secret rebel base"? (Does your answer change if you substitute waterboarding for telepathy? Or a levitating black probe with a cruel needle sticking out of it? Possibly it does.)

Right now he's trying to save a woman's life. A violation of another human being? Yes. Justifiable? Perhaps (and perhaps not).

It may be that Parkman will  - in the end - wind up in a darker place - but let's face it: none of the Heroes, save for Peter, Sylar, and Hiro have had such a temptation for corruption laid at their feet.  Sylar is a psychopath whose movement to the dark side made black, blacker. Peter on the other hand, is too utterly _vapid_ to understand the bigger implications of what he is or what he can do. Pointing fingers at Peter is like faulting a six year old for having a poorly developed moral compass. 

As for Hiro  - he failed his first test along the road to Paladinhood too. And several others after that, it seems.


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 21, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I don't think that Parkman is going to the dark side. I think he is a normal man - with normal feelings, normal faults and an essential humanity.  That average schlubb has been given a power of mind control that Internet fan-fiction suggests is the singular _fuel for fantasy and abuse_.
> 
> How would you fare with such a power?
> 
> ...




All very good points. To answer them completely would bring us into non-ENWorld appropriate areas of discourse. I'll simply say that it's a question of character. The issue is not whether Parkman would do something mildly wrong in order to do something good. The issue is whether, having discovered how easy it is to do this "one small thing," it them becomes that much easier to justify doing it next time. Or to do something considerably worse in the face of a greater danger. As some of your examples indicate, it is easy to justify doing harm to someone in the name of a good end. The question isn't "Is Parkman now evil," but "will Parkman begin to slide into self-justification and abuse of his power." Right now, I don't know the answer, but the show wouldn't have raised the issue if it weren't a possibility. Matt's choice will eventually be: To become his father, or to become something better.


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## fba827 (Nov 21, 2007)

Phoenix8008 said:
			
		

> Now when they are talking about only 2 episodes left, that's till the mid-season break right? They aren't cutting the whole season down to these episodes are they?




It's 2 episodes left for this Volume: Generations   (Volume 1 was the entire first season.  Volume 2 is the first half of this season).  Volume 3 is _supposed_ to start after the mid-season break, however, that may be delayed due to the strike.


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## DonTadow (Nov 21, 2007)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> All very good points. To answer them completely would bring us into non-ENWorld appropriate areas of discourse. I'll simply say that it's a question of character. The issue is not whether Parkman would do something mildly wrong in order to do something good. The issue is whether, having discovered how easy it is to do this "one small thing," it them becomes that much easier to justify doing it next time. Or to do something considerably worse in the face of a greater danger. As some of your examples indicate, it is easy to justify doing harm to someone in the name of a good end. The question isn't "Is Parkman now evil," but "will Parkman begin to slide into self-justification and abuse of his power." Right now, I don't know the answer, but the show wouldn't have raised the issue if it weren't a possibility. Matt's choice will eventually be: To become his father, or to become something better.



I'm going to jump on that thin border for a minute and say that Parkman is going to the darkside because his motifs are selfish. Good ole fashion police work could have produced that woman's name.  Remember, Anikan thought his selfish reasons were just to. 

If there is another way to get something done, and he uses mind control,  i consider that the darkside.


----------



## Victim (Nov 21, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I'm going to jump on that thin border for a minute and say that Peter is going to the darkside because his motifs are selfish. Good ole fashion police work could have produced that woman's name.  Remember, Anikan thought his selfish reasons were just to.
> 
> If there is another way to get something done, and he uses mind control,  i consider that the darkside.




You mean Parkman?  He took a shortcut when finding his Dad too.  Once Molly got the address, detective work could have easily produced the apartment number or other useful information - there was no need for her to risk detection by staying around.  

At least in theory.  Since Parkman isn't a good cop or detective, he'd probably screw it up without his power.


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 21, 2007)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> I liked the episode... even with the glaring plot hole.  Okay, so Claire's blood brings people back from the dead.  And they had Adam in captivity for 30 years?  Why then did they need Claire at all? Didn't they bother to get some of Adam's blood?  Why not?  Wouldn't that have been a good idea?  Hell, if I were the company I'd have installed a spigot in the guy.



There may well be serious side effects from the process, as possibly evidenced by Nathan's visions. You may pick up more than just healing, making any of their blood less than ideal. It may be that you pick up a psychosis from Adam because he's psychotic, while you wouldn't end up with any negative side effects from Claire because she's sane.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 21, 2007)

Victim said:
			
		

> You mean Parkman?  He took a shortcut when finding his Dad too.  Once Molly got the address, detective work could have easily produced the apartment number or other useful information - there was no need for her to risk detection by staying around.
> 
> At least in theory.  Since Parkman isn't a good cop or detective, he'd probably screw it up without his power.



I am not so sure that Parkman isn't a good detective. But we will never really be able to determine that, since he is telepathic now, and there is no way any kind of detective wouldn't try to rely on that. And his life as a detective started just recently, so it's not like he has a lot of experience in doing detective work without telepathy.

But this tendendy to take dangerous shortcuts will probably lead to more bad things happening. Hopefully, he will eventually learn his lesson..


----------



## DonTadow (Nov 21, 2007)

Victim said:
			
		

> You mean Parkman?  He took a shortcut when finding his Dad too.  Once Molly got the address, detective work could have easily produced the apartment number or other useful information - there was no need for her to risk detection by staying around.
> 
> At least in theory.  Since Parkman isn't a good cop or detective, he'd probably screw it up without his power.



My bad Parkman..(sorry four hours of surgery, a vicadin and some unknown pain and my first thought is to check enworld ...i'm such a geek).  

I wonder will parkman realize is behavior or will this be a heel turn for the Mohinder/parkman team.  Mohinder shot someone to save the company.  That's the equivalent of a chair shot.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 21, 2007)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> I liked the episode... even with the glaring plot hole.  Okay, so Claire's blood brings people back from the dead.  And they had Adam in captivity for 30 years?  Why then did they need Claire at all? Didn't they bother to get some of Adam's blood?  Why not?  Wouldn't that have been a good idea?  Hell, if I were the company I'd have installed a spigot in the guy.



It is always good to have a backup plan.  Plus, shelve life, we don't know how long the blood retains it's healing.  As far as the spigot, they are more interesting in the creation of a demand for their cure.  Adam, maybe out for the Company for the simple reason that for 30 years he has had a spigot in him.  The lab rat that just would not die, no matter what they did to him.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 21, 2007)

Alternatively, Bob knew Adam's blood would not work to save Nikki because the virus had been engineered to resist it.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 21, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Alternatively, Bob knew Adam's blood would not work to save Nikki because the virus had been engineered to resist it.



I think Adam's blood whould have worked, one of my reasons for feeling that Bob wants to create the virus, so they who have the cure can come to power and rule the world!


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 21, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Alternatively, Bob knew Adam's blood would not work to save Nikki because the virus had been engineered to resist it.




And possibly even tailored specifically to kill Adam.


----------



## Ilium (Nov 21, 2007)

GandhitheBFG said:
			
		

> I was hoping West would join Adam, and get killed by the good guys at some point...However, I might change my mind...




I hope West joins up with Adam just so we can call the team Adam/West.

"To the batcave!"


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Nov 21, 2007)

Grymar said:
			
		

> Interesting....I didn't pick up the "taken from her birth parents" part.  I thought she was Bob's actual daughter but he allowed the Company to experiment on her, which pushed her abilities much farther than they would have developed.  This also had the unintended consequence of somewhat shattering her mind.



That's how I saw it. Elle seems to have the self-control of a spoiled, moody, sexually awakened 8 year old. This came about because, as HRG said, 'The human brain wasn't made to handle that much electricity' or something like that.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Nov 21, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> There may well be serious side effects from the process, as possibly evidenced by Nathan's visions. You may pick up more than just healing, making any of their blood less than ideal. It may be that you pick up a psychosis from Adam because he's psychotic, while you wouldn't end up with any negative side effects from Claire because she's sane.



I suspect Nathan's mirror flashes were nothing more than a brain still in shock dealing with the fact that he had been horribly disfigured for life and then miraculously healed to not even a scar. Story wise they served as WTF moments to lead into the 'Four Months Ago' episode.


----------



## DonTadow (Nov 21, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> That's how I saw it. Elle seems to have the self-control of a spoiled, moody, sexually awakened 8 year old. This came about because, as HRG said, 'The human brain wasn't made to handle that much electricity' or something like that.



HRG draws a parrell between Bob and himself which makes me think that Elle is adopted. The parrell made me feel that it was exact, meaning Bob turned his "adopted" daughter into a guinny pig and hrg didn't.  I couldn't imagine any bioligical father letting that happen.


----------



## Mark (Nov 22, 2007)

Valerian said:
			
		

> I'm fairly sure that Keito's power was his ability to Teach, as demonstrated by his ability to make Hiro more or less a master with the sword in a few hours of practice.  I also suspect Hiro's sister learned how to run the Nakamura corporation from Keito in a similar fashion.
> 
> 
> Valerian




Naw.  Follow the bloodlines and know that later generations can become more powerful.  Keito can stop time (and teach you what he wants you to know before starting it again) but Hiro can travel through it.  Adam's blood can heal, and his son Linderman could actually heal things outside his body without using his blood, which makes Linderman's daughter the one who is going to eventually be the most powerful of all . . . more than just a cheerleader.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 22, 2007)

Umm....Mark, Claire is Nathan's daughter.  Kaito being able to do training montages as his power is just conjecture, it was not actual training, just helping Hiro to put things in perspective so it did not neccessarily take that long at all.


----------



## Krug (Nov 22, 2007)

One of the better episodes, mainly because it focused on mainly a central story with another reflecting the first. Interesting turn of events.


----------



## GandhitheBFG (Nov 22, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> HRG draws a parrell between Bob and himself which makes me think that Elle is adopted. The parrell made me feel that it was exact, meaning Bob turned his "adopted" daughter into a guinny pig and hrg didn't.  I couldn't imagine any bioligical father letting that happen.




Another parallel to the Parkman/Maury thing; HRG was (possibly) in the same situation as Bob, and did the good thing, whereas Parkman was probably in a situation similar to Maury and did (probably) the same thing.

Not that I don't like Parkman, or think he is going horribly evil or anything. But he IS abusing the mind control power, as has already been mentioned.


----------



## Mark (Nov 22, 2007)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> Umm....Mark, Claire is Nathan's daughter.





According to Angela.  Course, she never lies.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Nov 22, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> According to Angela.  Course, she never lies.




According to Angela, according to Nathan, and according to Claire's mom.


----------



## Mark (Nov 22, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> According to Angela, according to Nathan, and according to Claire's mom.





Nathan didn't actually know until later and then thought them both dead.  Clare's (supposed) mother is also not to be trusted.  I think Elle comes from trailerpark-energy-power-woman and that the flyboy is actually Nathan's kid.  The Company is really big on switcharoos and misdirection.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 22, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Nathan didn't actually know until later and then thought them both dead.  Clare's (supposed) mother is also not to be trusted.  I think Elle comes from trailerpark-energy-power-woman and that the flyboy is actually Nathan's kid.  The Company is really big on switcharoos and misdirection.




Elle is totally the wrong age to be Fire Lady's child though. 24 vs 18. Plus, Fire Lady and Nathan are the ones that had a kid, so giving each of them a different kid seems off.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Nov 22, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Nathan didn't actually know until later and then thought them both dead.  Clare's (supposed) mother is also not to be trusted.




Unfortunately I think you're wrong here.  If you rewatch the phone conversation between Nathan and the Claire's mom its obvious that he knew that they had a child since he said that he went to Claire's mom's funeral and its highly unlikely that he wouldn't have heard the about the baby during the service especially if both were thought to have perished in the fire.  Also, considering Claire's mom's personality, I seriously doubt that she wouldn't have let the fact that she was pregnant and had a Nathan's child slide before the fire occurred.


----------



## DonTadow (Nov 22, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I think you're wrong here.  If you rewatch the phone conversation between Nathan and the Claire's mom its obvious that he knew that they had a child since he said that he went to Claire's mom's funeral and its highly unlikely that he wouldn't have heard the about the baby during the service especially if both were thought to have perished in the fire.  Also, considering Claire's mom's personality, I seriously doubt that she wouldn't have let the fact that she was pregnant and had a Nathan's child slide before the fire occurred.



Yeah, if claire winds up not being firelady's baby it would feel like a major post retcon (the kind i hate in comics).  They'd have to explain how elle survived the fire and why does the mom get around so much.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 22, 2007)

Claire is Nathan and Firemommy's kid.

For one, that's why Nathan paid her off - he knows it's his.

Also, we don't see it completely in the show (and is thus not canon to some), but the comic clarifies that before Kaito gives Claire to HRG on the rooftop, their (Claude and HRG) mission is to take in Firemommy, and they save Claire.

The similarity between Claire and Elle (down to appearance and attitude) is to highlight the idea that Elle is what Claire would have turned into if HRG gave her up to the Company.  Hence the title of this episode, "Cautionary Tales."


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 22, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Nathan didn't actually know until later and then thought them both dead.  Clare's (supposed) mother is also not to be trusted.  I think Elle comes from trailerpark-energy-power-woman and that the flyboy is actually Nathan's kid.  The Company is really big on switcharoos and misdirection.




I noticed that Heroes is pretty good at avoiding invalidating previous information. 
They often put things in a new direction or put a different perspective on it, but they avoid contradicting previous explainations or relations. 
Usually, Occam's Razor works in (or on?) Heroes.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 22, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> I noticed that Heroes is pretty good at avoiding invalidating previous information.
> They often put things in a new direction or put a different perspective on it, but they avoid contradicting previous explainations or relations.
> Usually, Occam's Razor works in (or on?) Heroes.




I haven't noticed it as much this season, though I've not been paying as much attention perhaps, but last season was rampant with little tweeks in flashbacks. A lot of times, they'd reshoot the recaps at the start of the episode and add/ remove dialogue to push things in the new direction the new guy wanted for his episode.

I do believe Claire is Nathans, though I put forward the idea that perhaps Nathan had more than one illegitimate child (Flyboy), it's entirely possible they'll retcon and show that Firelady was unfaithful.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 22, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I haven't noticed it as much this season, though I've not been paying as much attention perhaps, but last season was rampant with little tweeks in flashbacks. A lot of times, they'd reshoot the recaps at the start of the episode and add/ remove dialogue to push things in the new direction the new guy wanted for his episode.
> 
> I do believe Claire is Nathans, though I put forward the idea that perhaps Nathan had more than one illegitimate child (Flyboy), it's entirely possible they'll retcon and show that Firelady was unfaithful.




I have no problem with Claire and Elle being half-sisters.  I don't know why this is controversial, to be honest. 

I can see why there are arguments suggesting that Elle and Claire are not half-sisters. I'm fine with that. But the suggestion that they ARE related is entirely possible.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 22, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I have no problem with Claire and Elle being half-sisters.  I don't know why this is controversial, to be honest.



Half sisters is possible I suppose, I'm just saying that Elle wouldn't be the baby that Firelady and Nathan had. Even accepting that Bob is Elle's dad, that leaves a mother out there.



> I can see why there are arguments suggesting that Elle and Claire are not half-sisters. I'm fine with that. But the suggestion that they ARE related is entirely possible.




Retcon's are always a chance and nothing is ever concrete, so anything is possible.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Nov 23, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> HRG draws a parrell between Bob and himself which makes me think that Elle is adopted. The parrell made me feel that it was exact, meaning Bob turned his "adopted" daughter into a guinny pig and hrg didn't.  I couldn't imagine any bioligical father letting that happen.



When Elle tells HRG "You don't know anything about me" it would have been the perfect opportunity to reveal that she was adopted like Claire. Yet he simply says "I was there when your father brought you in."


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Nov 23, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I can see why there are arguments suggesting that Elle and Claire are not half-sisters. I'm fine with that. But the suggestion that they ARE related is entirely possible.



The way I see it, they may _all_ be descended from Adam/Kensai. He's had 400 years to sow his wild oats all over the place.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Nov 23, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> The way I see it, they may _all_ be descended from Adam/Kensai. He's had 400 years to sow his wild oats all over the place.




Thats entirely plausible considering that some geneticists say that 80% of England's population is descended from Edward III


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 23, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Thats entirely plausible considering that some geneticists say that 80% of England's population is descended from Edward III



Or some time traveller(s)....from the future...What did become of Peter's Irish love.


----------



## Mark (Nov 23, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I think you're wrong here.  If you rewatch the phone conversation between Nathan and the Claire's mom its obvious that he knew that they had a child since he said that he went to Claire's mom's funeral and its highly unlikely that he wouldn't have heard the about the baby during the service especially if both were thought to have perished in the fire.  Also, considering Claire's mom's personality, I seriously doubt that she wouldn't have let the fact that she was pregnant and had a Nathan's child slide before the fire occurred.





Right.  Nathan didn't know he had a kid until after the child was born.  At birth, the Company switches out Nathan's real kid, flyboy, for Adam's kid, Clare, who the Company is trying to hide from Adam, lest Adam kill Clare as potentially able to withstand Adam who the Company has long since feared was too powerful.  Meanwhile, the Company, who has a prior relationship with trailerpark mom when they took Elle off her hands and gave Elle to Bob, on which to experiment and turn into an assassin, sends Noah to take out trailerpark mom since she is unstable but Noah fakes a fire, pays off trailerpark mom to take a powder and passes flyboy on to some other foster parents, keeping tabs on him periodically.  It's why, when Noah's family had to run, they could so easily move near flyboy, as Noah was keeping a second life going there as one of his "paper" Company business trips.  A little later, trailerpark mom resurfaces again anyway and puts the squeeze on Nathan's family which was intercepted by Angela, then part of the Company, who pays off trailerpark mom yet again.  In this scenario even trailerpark mom does not know that Clare is not her and Nathan's kid.  Angela does and it is one of the very deep secrets she is deparately trying to keep so that Adam never finds out.  Bob, perhaps now working for Adam, suspects but is not sure of Clare's actual heritage and it is the real reason he wants either Clare or some of her blood.

(I originally thought that the lineage was Adam to Linderman to Clare.  Now I think it is Linderman to Adam to Clare and that sometime in a future episode the Haitian will wipe Adam's memories and future Hiro will take Adam back in time to become Kensei, only to become more powerful than his father Linderman. It's what makes Clare so special, she is actually a third generation mutant.  That would also mean that flyboy is third generation, too.)

As to the last woman in the photo, I think that one is the _real_ mother of Sylar and Peter.


btw, this seems very wrong.


----------



## Mark (Nov 23, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> I noticed that Heroes is pretty good at avoiding invalidating previous information.
> They often put things in a new direction or put a different perspective on it, but they avoid contradicting previous explainations or relations.
> Usually, Occam's Razor works in (or on?) Heroes.





Occam's Razor suggests that the mating of a hero and non-hero begets a hero with the same power that becomes more powerful and the mating of a hero and hero beget a hero with a mutated new power.  What we know from the show (so-caled "previous information") is all from perspective and just as likely to be false information as truth.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 24, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Occam's Razor suggests that the mating of a hero and non-hero begets a hero with the same power that becomes more powerful and the mating of a hero and hero beget a hero with a mutated new power.  What we know from the show (so-caled "previous information") is all from perspective and just as likely to be false information as truth.




I think Occam's Razor suggests very little, because we don't have enough data to make an informed assumption.  The only confirmed instances of parents with powers who have children with powers are:

1) Nathan & Firemommy -> Claire
2) DL & Niki -> Micah
3) Mr. Walker -> Molly (note: Mrs. Walker did not have a power, else Sylar would have eaten her brains as well)
4) Maury -> Matt (no clue on Mrs. Parkman)

In that we have only one real "pattern" - two parents with powers will have children with powers.  Occam's Razor suggests that, at least.  There's no correlation between a parent's power and a child's, as given by the Walkers.  Furthermore, in "Five Years Gone" it's implied that parents with no powers are giving birth to children with powers.

Mr. Walker had an ability, but we don't know what it is.  Angela Petrelli and Kaito Nakamura _probably_ have powers, but we haven't seen them.  Regardless of if they do or not, we don't know if their spouses did.  Bob may or may not be Elle's biological father - I think the episode is sufficiently ambiguous on the point.

You know, for a volume called "Generations," there hasn't been a lot revealed about families.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 24, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> 3) Mr. Walker -> Molly (note: Mrs. Walker did not have a power, else Sylar would have eaten her brains as well)




Theoretically, Mr Walkers power wouldn't be "find anyone" either, since Sylar didn't display such a talent, instead following Older Suresh's list, IIRC.


----------



## Mark (Nov 24, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> The only confirmed instances of parents with powers who have children with powers are:
> 
> 1) Nathan & Firemommy -> Claire





Confirmed by who?


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 24, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Confirmed by who?



By everything that happened in the show.

Ma Petrelli helps Claire because she is her daughter.
Nathan pays Firemommy to keep her mouth shut about her daughter.
Firemommy says Nathan is Claires daughter. 

Sure, tomorrow Sylars father could appear and say that he is her true father, but that's exactly the kind of twist Heroes managed to avoid so far. They don't invalidate previous information entirely. They add context which might change the meaning, but this changes only our interpretation of the information, or adds new implications. 
The information we got was "Nathan is Claires father". Maybe there is some further twist - it wasn't a "love child", it happened when Nathan was drunk, or Firemommy just stole Nathans sperm and just claimed it happened during her affair. Maybe Firemommy is actually Nathan's half-sister or Adams daughter. That's the kind of twist Heroes might do.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 24, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Right.  Nathan didn't know he had a kid until after the child was born.  At birth, the Company switches out Nathan's real kid, flyboy, for Adam's kid, Clare, who the Company is trying to hide from Adam, lest Adam kill Clare as potentially able to withstand Adam who the Company has long since feared was too powerful.  Meanwhile, the Company, who has a prior relationship with trailerpark mom when they took Elle off her hands and gave Elle to Bob, on which to experiment and turn into an assassin, sends Noah to take out trailerpark mom since she is unstable but Noah fakes a fire, pays off trailerpark mom to take a powder and passes flyboy on to some other foster parents, keeping tabs on him periodically.  It's why, when Noah's family had to run, they could so easily move near flyboy, as Noah was keeping a second life going there as one of his "paper" Company business trips.  A little later, trailerpark mom resurfaces again anyway and puts the squeeze on Nathan's family which was intercepted by Angela, then part of the Company, who pays off trailerpark mom yet again.  In this scenario even trailerpark mom does not know that Clare is not her and Nathan's kid.  Angela does and it is one of the very deep secrets she is deparately trying to keep so that Adam never finds out.  Bob, perhaps now working for Adam, suspects but is not sure of Clare's actual heritage and it is the real reason he wants either Clare or some of her blood.




Firemommy knows she had a daughter not a son. And her daughter could not be Elle because there is a 6 year difference between the two.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 24, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> By everything that happened in the show.
> 
> Ma Petrelli helps Claire because she is her daughter.
> Nathan pays Firemommy to keep her mouth shut about her daughter.
> Firemommy says Nathan is Claires daughter.




I think you meant granddaughter for Ma Petrelli.



			
				Mark said:
			
		

> Confirmed by who?




We have to assume the events in the show (and comic, if you consider it canon as well) are not lying to us.  Otherwise, we can't assume anything, and Occam's Razor doesn't apply.

As an aside, it's why I hate Candice's power, and I hope Sylar doesn't get it.  It's a vehicle for the show to lie to the viewer, and then all of us that like to speculate can't really do so because all events are automatically suspect.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 24, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I think Occam's Razor suggests very little, because we don't have enough data to make an informed assumption.  The only confirmed instances of parents with powers who have children with powers are:
> 
> 3) Mr. Walker -> Molly (note: Mrs. Walker did not have a power, else Sylar would have eaten her brains as well)




DO we know that Sylar didn't play with his fingers in her head? I had actually assumed that he had. How do we know he didn't?

The father was frozen at the table.  The mother was pegged to the side of the staircase with forks and knives. Was there some clear indication that Mrs. Walkers head was entirely intact? I don't think we know this for sure.

It has never been Sylar's _M.O._ to kill normals. "There is nothing to gain from it, so why would I do it", says Sylar to the audience when he is agonizing over his prophesied role in the destruction of New York.

He killed one normal in the graphic novel to make sure he made his escape - but I think that's the only instance of it in Heroes...up until the death of the Car Thief man with a rock in Mexico, who was also killed to allow Sylar to prevent him from calling the police.

It was for this reason that I had always assumed he killed *both* of the Walkers for their abilities.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Nov 24, 2007)

Well, he did kill the wrong cheerleader. It is entirely possible that he knew that _someone_ in the Walker household had an ability but not who specifically. So, he killed Mr. & Mrs. blindly groping. This doesn't explain why he would have left Molly alive, but maybe he just couldn't find her.


----------



## Mark (Nov 24, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> By everything that happened in the show.
> 
> Ma Petrelli helps Claire because she is her daughter.
> Nathan pays Firemommy to keep her mouth shut about her daughter.
> Firemommy says Nathan is Claires daughter.





None of those things confirm that Claire is Nathan's daughter.  Those only confirm that Nathan believes that Claire is his daughter and that Angela and trailerpark mom claim that Claire is his daughter.




			
				Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Firemommy knows she had a daughter not a son. And her daughter could not be Elle because there is a 6 year difference between the two.





We do not know for a fact that she has had any children  Trailerpark mom cannot be trusted to tell the truth.  She may be lying about everything.  It is even just as possible in the context of the show that she had Elle (who she gave up to the Company for experiments) and later had flyboy (who may have been switched with or without her knowledge, if she was not in possession of the knowledge of the sex of the baby before birth and not conscious during the birth).  Or that someone else we have yet to meet had flyboy and that the Company paid her to blackmail Nathan's family.  The truth is far from clear at this point.

Let us not forget that Claire and flyboy are about the same age.  Why, also, have flyboy be someone who can fly?  Why not have the new boyfriend with some other ability?  They go out of their way to make sure that we know that abilties are passed down and then randomly decide that someone who is supposedly not related has the same ability as a major character that has been in the show since the beginning?  With all of the abilities the writers might have chosen for the new boyfriend, we are to believe that the writers accidently chose an ability already in use without thinking what that might do to their series bible?  I'm not convinced it is an accident.

In any event, trailerpark mom needs to be put in a room with Parkman for a half an hour so we can get some straight answers.




			
				LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> We have to assume the events in the show (and comic, if you consider it canon as well) are not lying to us.  Otherwise, we can't assume anything, and Occam's Razor doesn't apply.





We have to make the distinction between an event in the show and what one character tells another.  Even then, events within the show can be altered due to the time traveling element, though it seems the writers/producers are reluctant to do anything along those lines and have written Hiro to have a conscience about such things.  Although, I would guess they are making sure we know something like that is possible by showing Hiro and Nakamura Sr. are against doing something like that precisely so that when they decide to do something later in the series the writers can claim they let us know it was possible early on even if they chose not to exploit it this early.  Still, I don't think we will be seeing Denise Crosby showing up in season five claiming to be Angela's half-Romulan love child.


----------



## Glyfair (Nov 24, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Why, also, have flyboy be someone who can fly?  Why not have the new boyfriend with some other ability?



One of the points they made in interviews, just before the season started, was they wanted to suggest there are only a finite number of abilities to go around.  Thus, you would see a lot of repeating of abilities.

That doesn't break your theory.  However, it does make it a bit more shaky.


----------



## Victim (Nov 24, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Let us not forget that Claire and flyboy are about the same age.  Why, also, have flyboy be someone who can fly?  Why not have the new boyfriend with some other ability?  They go out of their way to make sure that we know that abilties are passed down and then randomly decide that someone who is supposedly not related has the same ability as a major character that has been in the show since the beginning?  With all of the abilities the writers might have chosen for the new boyfriend, we are to believe that the writers accidently chose an ability already in use without thinking what that might do to their series bible?  I'm not convinced it is an accident.




We only have 1 case of direct power inheritance, and a whole lot of "people with powers have children with powers," plus some powers seem to pop across the population randomly.  For instance, Shanti apparently had a power, but there's no evidence that anyone else in the family does.  So in other words, the show has not made an effort to show that abilities have been passed down.


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## Mark (Nov 24, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> One of the points they made in interviews, just before the season started, was they wanted to suggest there are only a finite number of abilities to go around.  Thus, you would see a lot of repeating of abilities.
> 
> That doesn't break your theory.  However, it does make it a bit more shaky.





Perhaps.  It also may have been something they said in an interview so that when flyboy was introduced everyone did not assume it was Nathan's son.  Still, have they shown any others with abilities identical to someone else in the show?


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## Mark (Nov 24, 2007)

Victim said:
			
		

> We only have 1 case of direct power inheritance, and a whole lot of "people with powers have children with powers," plus some powers seem to pop across the population randomly.  For instance, Shanti apparently had a power, but there's no evidence that anyone else in the family does.  So in other words, the show has not made an effort to show that abilities have been passed down.





Hiro has a power inherited from his father, only more powerful.  Parkman has a power handed down from his father, only more powerful.  In other words, the writers/producers have made an effort to show this as possible and it may be part of the series bible.  We will have to see if this is something on which guessers can hang their hat or just something they did as a fluke, twice.  I suspect more of that will become evident as the series ties more of the story lines together and wraps more and more of their loose ends up.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 24, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Hiro has a power inherited from his father, only more powerful.




Huh?

We never found out whatever his father could do. There was the assumption that his father was Kensei, hence long life, etc...but that was long before Season 2 started, and its definitely not true.

In fact, of the older generation of heroes, we ONLY know the power of Adam and Parkman's father.

Kind of seems like you're reaching a little too hard to make everyone connected. I mean, they ARE connected in the sense that they're all 'special', but I don't think that also means everyone needs to be related. In fact, for me, that would cheapen it a great deal.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 25, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Parkman has a power handed down from his father, only more powerful.




Is it more powerful? I thought the whole point with Parkman was duplicating the advances his father had made, not that his power was different. Ma Petrilli seemed aware of him being capable of it at least.


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## Mark (Nov 25, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Huh?
> 
> We never found out whatever his father could do. There was the assumption that his father was Kensei, hence long life, etc...but that was long before Season 2 started, and its definitely not true.
> 
> ...





Nakamura Sr. states that he was impressed his son could time travel and that Hiro had become even more powereful than he had been, indicating that the father had a less enhanced version of the same power.


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## Mark (Nov 25, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Is it more powerful? I thought the whole point with Parkman was duplicating the advances his father had made, not that his power was different. Ma Petrilli seemed aware of him being capable of it at least.





Parkman was able to stop his father at his own game.  Not a different power but a more enhanced (stronger) version of the same power, from what I gathered.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 25, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Nakamura Sr. states that he was impressed his son could time travel and that Hiro had become even more powereful than he had been, indicating that the father had a less enhanced version of the same power.



 See, I didn't take that as Nakamura saying he had the SAME power...just the his son had become stronger than him as a whole.


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## Mark (Nov 25, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> See, I didn't take that as Nakamura saying he had the SAME power...just the his son had become stronger than him as a whole.





If one of us gets the chance, perhaps we could check that part out again on the NBC site.

http://www.nbc.com/Heroes/video/episodes.shtml


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## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 25, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> See, I didn't take that as Nakamura saying he had the SAME power...just the his son had become stronger than him as a whole.




I rather thought Kaito's power was to _slow_ time, but not move through it.

Hence the training montage.

Yes, he has the power of... MONTAGE!


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## Richards (Nov 25, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> In fact, of the older generation of heroes, we ONLY know the power of Adam and Parkman's father.



Actually, we also know of Linderman's power as well.  Remember what he did with that wilted plant?

Johnathan


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 25, 2007)

Richards said:
			
		

> Actually, we also know of Linderman's power as well.  Remember what he did with that wilted plant?
> 
> Johnathan



 Ack, yeah. Still, of the people in that picture, that's a whole three people we know.

It IS possible that Kaito Nakamura had a time related power, and I did go back and watch that scene again...its maybe HINTED at, but its still very vague and I still see the scene as a way for the father to say that his son has become a better man. The classic coming of age thing.

...though the power of montage would, indeed, rock.


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## Ed_Laprade (Nov 25, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Let us not forget that Claire and flyboy are about the same age.  Why, also, have flyboy be someone who can fly?  Why not have the new boyfriend with some other ability?  They go out of their way to make sure that we know that abilties are passed down and then randomly decide that someone who is supposedly not related has the same ability as a major character that has been in the show since the beginning?  With all of the abilities the writers might have chosen for the new boyfriend, *we are to believe that the writers accidently chose an ability already in use without thinking what that might do to their series bible? *  I'm not convinced it is an accident.



I added the bold. To answer the question: No. In a TV Guide interview Kring said that it was done deliberately because they thought it would be cool for Claire's boyfriend to have the same power as her father. Which pretty much puts paid to most of your theory.


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## Mark (Nov 25, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> I added the bold. To answer the question: No. In a TV Guide interview Kring said that it was done deliberately because they thought it would be cool for Claire's boyfriend to have the same power as her father. Which pretty much puts paid to most of your theory.





Do you have a link?  I'd love to see the actual wording on that.  More than once I have seen things intimated in interviews (for any number of shows) in one direction as a red herring to deliberately befuddle online mavins like ourselves.  I would not put it past Kring to be clever enough to do just such a thing.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 25, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Parkman was able to stop his father at his own game.  Not a different power but a more enhanced (stronger) version of the same power, from what I gathered.




IMO, that had nothing to do with his "power", but more to do with outwitting his father.


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## Hijinks (Nov 25, 2007)

> Elle is totally the wrong age to be Fire Lady's child though. 24 vs 18.




It's quite possible that Elle is not the age she thinks she is.

She's been living at the Company, she said, since she was 8 (IIRC).  If he wanted to, Bob could have easily sped up her age by having birthday celebrations more often than usual (say every 8-10 months) or less often than usual.  Bob completely controlled her existence and he can make her think anything he wants.

Visually, to me she could be anywhere from 18 to 26 or so.

What was the name of the woman in the picture?  My husband walked in during the episode's ending and distracted me (grr)


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 25, 2007)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> What was the name of the woman in the picture?  My husband walked in during the episode's ending and distracted me (grr)




Victoria Pratt.

She features prominently in the next episode.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 25, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> DO we know that Sylar didn't play with his fingers in her head? I had actually assumed that he had. How do we know he didn't?




She had an intact head when she was pinned up against the wall, and Audrey only mentioned Mr. Walker's head being cut off.


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## Fast Learner (Nov 25, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Ack, yeah. Still, of the people in that picture, that's a whole three people we know.



We also know Bob's power.


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