# Medium Armor: Why?



## Herzog (Jun 24, 2011)

I've recently taken an interest in the various armors available for D&D, and ran into something I just can't wrap my head around.

If you are limited to light armor, you have a range of options to choose from.
The various armor's start with a +1 AC, with a max dex bonus of +8, and rangue up to +4 with a max dex bonus of +4.
Higher AC (from the armor) also means higher price, so a starting character may opt to buy a cheaper armor. Also, when you have a high DEX it might be interesting to buy a lower AC, allowing you to take full advantage of your dex bonus.

If you are in the position to take advantage of heavy armor, your range of options is very similar.
Your AC ranges from +6 to +8, and an increase in price either means a higher AC bonus or a higher dex bonus and/or decreased ACP.

Which leaves us with the middle ground, the Medium Armors.

The cheapest armor available is Hide, which is slightly more expensive than leather, and slightly cheaper than studded leather.
It has a lower max dex bonus and higher ACP than both leather and studded leather, and it carries the medium armor movement reduction.
Only characters REALLY pressed for cash (or characters wearing hide because of RP reasons....) would get Hide armor.

The second option when gettting medium armor is scale mail. Although half as cheap as a chain shirt, it's otherwise inferior to chain shirt in all aspects except the AC bonus.

The last two options are chainmail and breastplate, which have the same AC bonus but give better dex bonus/ACP options with an increased price.

So, to summarize:

When getting armor, 
light armor gives you AC +1 to +4
medium armor gives you AC +5
heavy armor gives you AC +6 to +8

in addition, if you really want it, you can get slightly cheaper armor when you switch from light to medium, getting the same AC bonus but worse ACP/max dex.

My question: WHY? Why reduce medium armor to the poor-mans-armor option it seems to be? 

The ONLY reason you'd want to restrict yourself to medium armor (instead of heavy) is when your class abilities restrict you to it, and even then you end up with a maximum of +1 AC relative to light armor.

The reason I was investigation armors is the selection of ranger levels for TWF, which requires me to wear light or no armor, and someone suggested I should buy a mithral breastplate. The increased price for that single +1 AC really makes me wonder about that suggestion.


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## anest1s (Jun 24, 2011)

Maybe if you had to take the armor proficiency line, you would use medium armor too for 2-3 levels.

Or maybe if you had too low strength for carrying heavy armor...? 

Other than that, I have to admit that I always prefer mithral chainshirts than breastplates...


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## Aus_Snow (Jun 24, 2011)

Yep, it's a very poorly thought out category. Well, set of categories, looking at the three.

Of course, there are supplements that add a heck of a lot of new armour types, and/or replace the "core" ones. That can help.

Otherwise, ditch it. Medium Armour, that is. Not _too_ much work to excise entirely.


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## Dandu (Jun 24, 2011)

Practically speaking, I've found that light armor means a chain shirt, medium armor means a breastplate, and heavy armor means full plate. All other armors may as well not exist unless you are a druid.


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## gwyllgi (Jun 24, 2011)

my DM was very open, so when i created a prestige class combining the warmage and dread necromancer (but with fire) and was allowed to use medium armors without fear of not being able to cast spell i quickly discovered that the medium armors aren't that useful unless the DM allows you to do special things with them.

For instance up until i crafted a new kind of Heavy armor based on a scale mail riveted chain mail fusion, i wore lamellar instead, the fun thing was that he allowed me to wear chahar-aina and dastana with it, this ended when he told me i could wear aina and dastana with my dragon scale mithril mail which was far cooler.

I.E. it's for flavor and nothing else.


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## Celebrim (Jun 24, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Practically speaking, I've found that light armor means a chain shirt, medium armor means a breastplate, and heavy armor means full plate. All other armors may as well not exist unless you are a druid.




This is true.

What annoys me further is that 'chain shirt' and 'breastplate' are not actually full sets of armor.  The use of a partial set of armor like that begs for a called shot system that D&D doesn't really want.

I'm currently using the following progression:

Light Armors
Padded	10 sp	+1	+8	0	5%		10 lb
Leather	20 sp	+2	+7	0	10%		15 lb
Ring	40 sp	+3	+6	-1	20%		20 lb
Medium Armors
Hide	25 sp	+3	+4	-3	15%		25 lb
Scale	60 sp	+4	+3	-4	25%		30 lb
Mail	80 sp	+5	+4	-3	30%		40 lb
Heavy Armors
Splint	70 sp	+6	+3	-7	40%		40 lb
Brigandine	100 sp	+6	+3	-5	35%		40 lb
Banded	150 sp	+6	+2	-6	35%		45 lb
Plate	20 gp	+7	+1	-7	40%		50 lb
Full Plate	100 gp	+8	+2	-6	35%		50 lb

I'm not fully happy with it, but at least the armors feel like realistic categories given the assumptions of the system and actual historical usage.  (I should note that I use a silver peice based economic system).  I would not introduce partial armor sets without a called shot system.

I tend to see a lot of ring and mail in use, with some leather when starting out before masterwork ring becomes available.  I currently have one character in hide for esoteric reasons of his build, and I expect some move toward Brigandine or Full Plate by the people who can wear heavy armor at some point.  I rarely see heavy armor on PC's before mithril becomes available though because the armor check penalties make it very problimatic in an adventuring environment. 

Any improvements I could make to the system would be welcome.  Anything is on the table.

Descriptions of armor as I categorize them currently are:

Banded: This armor is made of overlapping strips of metal sewn to a backing of leather and mail. The strips cover vulnerable areas, while the mail and leather protect the joints and provide freedom of movement. Straps and buckles distribute the weight evenly.  This class of armor includes any armor made of overlapping plates, such as lorica segmentata.
Brigandine: This armor consists of small plates of metal or laquered wood of various sizes which are sewn together and then to a cloth backing and covering, resulting in a flexible garment that provides excellent protection against piercing and slashing attacks.  
Full Plate: This armor consists of shaped and fitted metal plates riveted and interlocked to cover the entire body in such a way that the resulting armor is fully articulated and flexible. Buckles and straps distribute the weight over the body, so full plate hampers movement less than splint mail even though splint is lighter. 
Hide: This armor is prepared from multiple layers of leather and animal hides. It is stiff and hard to move in.  Armors made of bone, wicker, or other natural materials are included in this class of armor.
Leather: The peices of this armor are made of leather that has been stiffened by boiling in oil.  The resulting armor is much like plate only made of leather rather than steel.  Padded or soft leather armor provides flexibility for the joints.  
Padded: Padded armor features quilted layers of cloth and batting.  Armor made of relatively thick but soft leather is included in this category.
Ring: Ring armor is padded armor which has had a layer of metal rings sewn onto the outside to provide superior protection from slashing attacks.  
Mail: This armor is made of interlocking metal rings. It includes a layer of quilted fabric underneath it to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows.  Most of the armor's weight hangs from the shoulders, making mail uncomfortable to wear for long periods of time.  However, mail is still among the most commonly seen forms of armor.  
Plate: This armor is a combination of mail with metal plates (breastplate, epaulettes, elbow guards, gauntlets, tasses, and greaves) covering vital areas. Buckles and straps hold the whole suit together and distribute the weight, but the armor still fits less well and hampers movement more than full plate. It includes gauntlets.
Scale: This is a coat and leggings of leather covered with overlapping pieces of metal, much like the scales of a fish.  Scale is a largely obsolete form of armor in most areas, but it is comparatively lightweight and relatively easy to produce.  Masterwork examples are fairly common, perhaps because the resulting armor is so attractive.
Splint: This armor is made of narrow vertical strips of metal riveted to a backing of leather that is worn over cloth padding.  Mail protects the joints.  It is relatively easy and cheap to make, but heavy compared to the level of protection it provides and not often seen except when cost is the primary consideration.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jun 24, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Practically speaking, I've found that light armor means a chain shirt, medium armor means a breastplate, and heavy armor means full plate. All other armors may as well not exist unless you are a druid.




Also unless you have a very high dex.  Then light armor could also be studded leather, padded, leafweave (iirc, that's what the Elf armor's called), or gnome twist cloth.


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## Tharkon (Jun 24, 2011)

Celebrim said:


> Brigandine    100 sp    +6    +3    -5    35%        40 lb
> Banded    150 sp    +6    +2    -6    35%        45 lb




Why would anyone pay the extra 50sp?


Also, I like to think the partial armor sets are somehow an explanation of lower AC despite being just the same type of material, when comparing breastplate to fullplate for example. You can assume that when you hit someone you would not have hit when wearing fullplate you probably hit in a place that breastplate does not cover, but fullplate does. This  is just the thought I keep behind it, I don't go as far as actually determining penalties for getting hit in certain places.


As far as medium armor is concerned, yes it is lacking in popularity and it will always remain so, cause there are 2 types of armor wearers. Those that want maximum protection (fighters, paladins, etc.), and those that want maximum flexibility (rangers, rogues, etc.). The former will go for the heaviest they can afford, while the latter will stick to leather, MW studded leather and mithril chainshirts. If you want players to wear medium armour, have a monster drop it. I guess the only exception is the Druid which usually doesn't go for the lighter types and can't wear the heavier types unless made out of wood or dragonscales. Especially when wildshape comes into play armor check penalties vanish when sneaking around as a snake.


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## anest1s (Jun 24, 2011)

Celebrim said:


> Light Armors
> Padded    10 sp    +1    +8    0    5%        10 lb
> Leather    20 sp    +2    +7    0    10%        15 lb
> Ring    40 sp    +3    +6    -1    20%        20 lb




I feel that there is something ''wrong''...some classes, like rogues  have abilities, like evasion that work only in light armor. At the same  time, most rogues will have a +4 DEX most of the time. This means that  they are ''punished'' by this change, since there is no +4 +4 light  armor here...

Also, someone has the option between +6 +7 pr +8 max dexterity...but I feel that when he will have a +6 dex he will already have a good magical armor, and he won't change it 3 times to benefit from +7 and +8 when his dex will go up too. So I really think I wouldn't like light armor as a rogue 



Celebrim said:


> Medium Armors
> Hide    25 sp    +3    +4    -3    15%        25 lb
> Scale    60 sp    +4    +3    -4    25%        30 lb
> Mail    80 sp    +5    +4    -3    30%        40 lb




Here Mail is the best, like breastplate was in the original system, only with +1 armor and with 10lb more. So yeah, medium armor is better than the original...but that just means that you now absolutely need a Mithral Mail, while before you could survive without one.



Celebrim said:


> Heavy Armors
> Splint    70 sp    +6    +3    -7    40%        40 lb
> Brigandine    100 sp    +6    +3    -5    35%        40 lb
> Banded    150 sp    +6    +2    -6    35%        45 lb
> ...




Brigandine>>Splint for just 30sp...
Brigandine>>Banded for just -50sp

Then Plate and Full plate are even better, but it feels like they have a huge max dex..because it makes it even more unfair for classes that can't wear heavy armor (a rogue with +4 dex having a Mithral Mail, will have a total of +9 AC while someone with +0-2 dex can have a Full plate, and waste that 4000gp for some other defensive item.)


I would propose an alternative, but for a slacker like me that would be overkill. 

edit: I wanted to say though, that I like that there aren't 4 kinds of armor for every type, since heavier armor is harder to get there should be more options. 

On the other hand, if most ppl in the world use light armor, it would make sense they would have created more light armor types... so I don't know


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## Celebrim (Jun 24, 2011)

Tharkon said:


> Why would anyone pay the extra 50sp?




Good catch.  I'll rethink the prices there.



> You can assume that when you hit someone you would not have hit when wearing fullplate you probably hit in a place that breastplate does not cover, but fullplate does. This  is just the thought I keep behind it, I don't go as far as actually determining penalties for getting hit in certain places.




You can always assume something, but D&D's general explanation for the lack of called shots is that unless the rules declare otherwise hitting a particular target is always less effective than exploiting a hole in the defenses because the entire target is roughly equally well protected.  In 1e this was even explicitly pointed out, by noting that if the character refused to wear a helmet (or for some reason had to take it off) then attacks to the head could be made as if the character was unarmored.   If however only the torso is armored, why can't I attack the unarmored limbs?   If only the torso is armored, why do you have a bonus to AC at all versus for example a wolf or a medium sized viper that's probably attacking your lower limbs anyway?   If what you've in game described is, "I have +5 plate on my chest but at most very light armor or no armor anywhere else.", then called shots would have to be very difficult indeed before it would be worth it to not attack the exposed limbs.


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## Empirate (Jun 24, 2011)

Take a look at Pathfinder. They really thought about armor types for that system overhaul, and the result is at least a bit better than 3.5:

Padded (5 gp): +1 / +8 / 0 / 5%
Leather (10 gp): +2 / +6 / 0 / 10%
Studded Leather (25 gp): +3 / +5 / -1 / 15%
Chain Shirt (100 gp): +4 / +4 / -2 / 20%

Hide (15 gp): +4 / +4 / -3 / 20%
Scale Mail (50 gp): +5 / +3 / -4 / 25%
Chainmail (150 gp): +6 / +2 / -5 / 30%
Breastplate  (200 gp): +6 / +3 / -4 / 25%

Splint Mail  (200 gp): +7 / 0 / -7 / 40%
Banded Mail (250 gp): +7 / +1 / -6 / 35%
Half Plate (600 gp): +8 / 0 / -7 / 40%
Full Plate (1,500 gp): +9 / +1 / -6 / 35%


The improvement seems to be more or less linear, so you will probably find the armor to fit your Dex mod. Non-Full Plate heavy armor is viable now (especially on a budget), and the medium armor types have received a buff as well, while light armor stays more or less as is.


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## domino (Jun 24, 2011)

Because without medium armor, mithral full plate would be light armor.


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## Summer-Knight925 (Jun 24, 2011)

if you have unearthed arcana, the Armor as DR makes more sense

it grants a small bonus to your actual armor class and grants damage reduction, what I didn't like about that system is it was DR for all types when in reality spears and arrows go through chainmail easily...in the system I'm making armor is DR to certain types of weapons, bludgeoning overcomes most types meaning a mace can be better than a longsword...yay for maces!


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jun 24, 2011)

Empirate said:


> Take a look at Pathfinder. They really thought about armor types for that system overhaul, and the result is at least a bit better than 3.5:
> 
> Padded (5 gp): +1 / +8 / 0 / 5%
> Leather (10 gp): +2 / +6 / 0 / 10%
> ...




Mostly like that, though I would've preferred they hadn't buffed full plate.  At 8/1 it was already the best armor for anyoe without crazy dex.  Alternatively, if they wanted to increase AC values across the board, boost all the heavy and medium armors another +1 and give the light armors higher max dex.  Or something.


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## Empirate (Jun 24, 2011)

I see you point, and feel much the same about Full Plate. I think they wanted to keep Full Plate as being really, really prestigious and special. It's so costly you could almost get a nice magic item for the price - one of very few mundane items in that regard. So they wanted to make it extra nice, I guess.


Concerning another point made above: Chainmail is actually quite good against spears and arrows. There are accounts in the medieval source texts that state crusader knights had "their mail stuck full of arrows like a hedgehog, but were in fact barely wounded underneath. Their sight filled the heathens with awe, for they knew not such armor", or some such.
Flexible armor that is well made (chain or scale mail) can work much like kevlar, dispersing the force of impact over a wider area. So being shot at with an arrow wearing chainmail might feel more like being whacked with a rubber hammer - IF the arrow is shot at range. At short distances, arrows and crossbow bolts could penetrate all medieval armor except plate.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 24, 2011)

One help would be to have Medium Armors _not reduce your speed_.

Then bump Chain Mail up to AC +6, bump price to 300gp (_it was a little sad that 3.x gave us so few D&D PCs wearing Chain Mail._)

I might even go with dropping the Banded and Splint Mail prices a sliver more.


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## Dandu (Jun 24, 2011)

anest1s said:


> I feel that there is something ''wrong''...some classes, like rogues  have abilities, like evasion that work only in light armor. At the same  time, most rogues will have a +4 DEX most of the time. This means that  they are ''punished'' by this change, since there is no +4 +4 light  armor here...



Actually...


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## anest1s (Jun 24, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Actually...




Why. Where was this one hidden all this time. 

Still, I didn't mean that there are no options, just that there aren't any without using magic or mithril 

Thanks for pointing out that armor though >.>


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## domino (Jun 24, 2011)

And depending on how you can argue it, you can make celestial mithril armor.  Which is a little silly, but awesome if you can get it.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 24, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Actually...



My holy liberator's follower—a bralani eladrin archer (with Dex gloves)—just loooooooves that.


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## BENINHB (Jun 24, 2011)

my crossbow laughs at your plate armor


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## Tharkon (Jun 25, 2011)

Summer-Knight925 said:


> if you have unearthed arcana, the Armor as DR makes more sense
> 
> it grants a small bonus to your actual armor class and grants damage reduction, what I didn't like about that system is it was DR for all types when in reality spears and arrows go through chainmail easily...in the system I'm making armor is DR to certain types of weapons, bludgeoning overcomes most types meaning a mace can be better than a longsword...yay for maces!




During medieval re-enactment, we called the mace the medieval can-opener. It was invented as response to full-plate.

If we are going to realistically we'd also have to go points where certain helms protect against weapons like flails while others don't. And have certain helms give penalties on attack bonus.



Eric Anondson said:


> One help would be to have Medium Armors _not reduce your speed_.




What be the difference between that and light armor then?



domino said:


> And depending on how you can argue it, you can  make celestial mithril armor.  Which is a little silly, but awesome if  you can get it.




Celestial armor is probably already made of mithril, if not an even lighter material.


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## Dandu (Jun 25, 2011)

It's made of silver or gold.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 25, 2011)

Tharkon said:


> What be the difference between that and light armor then?



Looking at the table . . .
The scale of the Dex penalties (2 points worse if chain mail is raised to AC +6 and comparing best light vs. best medium)
The armor check penalties (still rather severe)
The scale of the Arcane Failure % (a not insignificant 10–15% worse)
The weight (5–15 lbs heavier)
Plus, as was stated earlier, by not just being "Light", by existing as a middle category it ensures mithril full plate isn't _*light*_ armor.


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## agrelic (Jun 25, 2011)

Herzog said:


> The reason I was investigation armors is the selection of ranger levels for TWF, which requires me to wear light or no armor, and someone suggested I should buy a mithral breastplate. The increased price for that single +1 AC really makes me wonder about that suggestion.




The increased price for mithral makes a lot more sense at later levels.

+3 Mithral Breastplate = 13,200 gp = +8 AC (+5 max dex)
+4 Chain Shirt = 16,100 gp = +8 AC (+4 max dex)

For most characters, the mithral breastplate starts becoming a lot cheaper from here on.  If you plan on having a wizard/cleric keep magicing your armor as you level, you're better off to buy mithral early and have them work on that.  Otherwise, just wait until you're in the price range and dump your chain shirt for mithral breastplate.

Alternatively, if you have a Dex of 22 or higher, you can consider

+3 mithral chain shirt = 10,100 gp = +7 AC (+6 max dex)

for an even cheaper option.


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## Stalker0 (Jun 26, 2011)

the only use I've found for medium armor is right around 1st level, when characters don't have the money for decent armor yet. Past that point, yes there is little point for it.


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## Mon (Jun 26, 2011)

Eric Anondson said:


> Looking at the table . . .
> The scale of the Dex penalties (2 points worse if chain mail is raised to AC +6 and comparing best light vs. best medium)
> The armor check penalties (still rather severe)
> The scale of the Arcane Failure % (a not insignificant 10–15% worse)
> ...



Just switch the maximum running speed limitation from heavy armour to medium, and the actual speed reduction to heavy armour only.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 26, 2011)

Mon said:


> Just switch the maximum running speed limitation from heavy armour to medium, and the actual speed reduction to heavy armour only.



Um, what?


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## Visigani (Jun 26, 2011)

Why has no one mentioned Mithril Mechanus Gear?

It has the highest potential Dex/AC (+12, I believe) of all the unenchanted armors I believe, is medium armor and doesn't require a feat. It has some ugly movement penalties (among others)...but for sheer not getting deadness, it's hard to beat.


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## Trance-Zg (Jun 26, 2011)

my suggestion for making armor more viable and worth the feat.

Armor name/armor bonus/max dex/a.c.p./a.s.f./cost(gp)


light;

leather................... + 2/+6/-0/10%/   5
studded leather........ +3/+5/-1/15%/  25
chain shirt............... +4/+4/-2/20%/ 100

medium;

hide........................ +5/+4/-3/25%/  50
chain mail................ +6/+3/-3/25%/ 200
breastplate.............. +7/+2/-4/30%/ 300

heavy;

half-plate................. +8/+1/-7/40%/ 500
elven plate............... +8/+2/-4/30%/2000
full plate.................. +9/+1/-6/35%/1500
heavy plate.............. +10/0/-7/40%/2000

half plate/hide is "budget NPC/1st level PC" armor.


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## Jackinthegreen (Jun 26, 2011)

Eric Anondson said:


> Um, what?



Heavy armor limits a character to 3x running speed instead of the normal 4x.  The Run feat changes this and specifies 4x with heavy armor and 5x without.  The proposed change Mon makes is to have Medium armor also limit running speed, which actually makes perfect sense.


And Mithril Mechanus armor?  O_O


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 26, 2011)

So:

Light ..... Speed 30/20; Run x4; w/Run Feat x5
Medium . Speed 30/20; Run x3; w/Run Feat x4
Heavy ... Speed 20/15; Run x3; w/Run Feat x4

I can get behind that.


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## domino (Jun 27, 2011)

Tharkon said:


> Celestial armor is probably already made of mithril, if not an even lighter material.






Dandu said:


> It's made of silver or gold.



Personally, I count the silver or gold as the coloring not the material.  While the writers may have intended to make Celestial Armor out of mithral, and the stats certainly suggest it, the description never actually says it's mithral.


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## Jackinthegreen (Jun 27, 2011)

The base stats are even more mithrily than mithril.  Seriously, a +8 Dex bonus?  It's also got a 15% arcane failure chance instead of a typical mithril chain's 20%.

I'd be inclined to say it's already mithril since saying it isn't means it can be made of mithril, meaning a massive +10 to Dex, no armor penalty, and only a 5% arcane failure chance.


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## Dandu (Jun 27, 2011)

That actually sounds pretty awesome.


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## Tharkon (Jun 27, 2011)

Eric Anondson said:


> Plus, as was stated earlier, by not just being "Light", by existing as a middle category it ensures mithril full plate isn't _*light*_ armor.




Removing the speed penalty from medium armor, would make mithril full plate equal in statistics to removing the medium armor altogether. Except for maybe proficiency.

As for Celestial Armor, even if not made of mithril, I wouldn't say it can be made of mithril,  since it's a specific item, messing with it voids its abilities probably.


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## Sal (Jun 27, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Mostly like that, though I would've preferred they hadn't buffed full plate. At 8/1 it was already the best armor for anyoe without crazy dex. Alternatively, if they wanted to increase AC values across the board, boost all the heavy and medium armors another +1 and give the light armors higher max dex. Or something.




I think their system is better.  you need 3 feats to get heavy armor and med and heavy armor have increased ACP, which under the current system you get nothing for, so you end up with a naster ACP.  Good luck climbing, jumping or swimming.  I assume if you are wearing heavy armor your not going to be using dex based skills. (except maybe balance.  I forget if this is one of the inclusive dex based skills.)

have a good day all.

Sal


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 27, 2011)

Tharkon said:


> Removing the speed penalty from medium armor, would make mithril full plate equal in statistics to removing the medium armor altogether.



Except that it is not light. 

That is not meaningless. It means rogues, rangers, and every class feature or ability that needs light armor won't work with mithral full plate. So, not equal to light.


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## Tharkon (Jun 28, 2011)

Eric Anondson said:


> Except that it is not light.
> 
> That is not meaningless. It means rogues, rangers, and every class feature or ability that needs light armor won't work with mithral full plate. So, not equal to light.




True I guess, although I don't thinkg a rogue would wear mith full plate even if it was light. It still has a large CP and low Max Dex.


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## green slime (Jun 29, 2011)

Empirate said:


> Concerning another point made above: Chainmail is actually quite good against spears and arrows. There are accounts in the medieval source texts that state crusader knights had "their mail stuck full of arrows like a hedgehog, but were in fact barely wounded underneath. Their sight filled the heathens with awe, for they knew not such armor", or some such.




Well, that is hardly surprising, since only a madmen would walk around in metal armour in 40 degrees celsius or more. Those heathens were mostly wearing lighter armour, more suitable to the climate. Another thing DnD fails to reflect. The risk of dehydration, heat exhaustion and overexhertion in warm climates, and the chill of cold climates or the effect of wearing large amounts of steel in anything but a moderate climate. 

DnD stories are about heroics, not overcoming local climate. Once the game selects to ignore these issues, it is difficult to reflect real life choices cultures were forced to make with regards to armour, and its performance. There was more at play than price / dex mod.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jun 29, 2011)

Well, Endure Elements is a level 1 spell with a 24 hour duration, even on a wand.  So it's not a real problem even if the DM tries to enforce "realism."


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## Tharkon (Jun 29, 2011)

green slime said:


> Well, that is hardly surprising, since only a madmen would walk around in metal armour in 40 degrees celsius or more. Those heathens were mostly wearing lighter armour, more suitable to the climate. Another thing DnD fails to reflect. The risk of dehydration, heat exhaustion and overexhertion in warm climates, and the chill of cold climates or the effect of wearing large amounts of steel in anything but a moderate climate.
> 
> DnD stories are about heroics, not overcoming local climate. Once the game selects to ignore these issues, it is difficult to reflect real life choices cultures were forced to make with regards to armour, and its performance. There was more at play than price / dex mod.




You should check out the books Sandstorm and Frostburn, but even the DMG has some info on the effects of heat I believe. And at certain temperatures characters wearing armor are affected as though heat or chill metal has been cast on them.


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## Dandu (Jun 29, 2011)

green slime said:


> Well, that is hardly surprising, since only a madmen would walk around in metal armour in 40 degrees celsius or more.



Madness?

THIS! IS! ROLEPLAYING!


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## Empirate (Jun 30, 2011)

Races of Faerûn has the magical Armor of Cooling, which is Chainmail with Endure Elements tacked on. Much appreciated in Calimshan...


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## Tharkon (Jul 4, 2011)

Empirate said:


> Races of Faerûn has the magical Armor of Cooling, which is Chainmail with Endure Elements tacked on. Much appreciated in Calimshan...




So Armor of Cooling would protect you from the cold as well, interesting....


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## Jackinthegreen (Jul 4, 2011)

Tharkon said:


> So Armor of Cooling would protect you from the cold as well, interesting....



The best analogy I can think of are a couple of elemental shields from final Fantasy 6.  The Fire Shield absorbs fire damage and nullifies ice, while the Ice Shield absorbs ice and nullifies fire.

Shame it's not exactly easy to absorb elemental energy to regain hitpoints in DnD.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 4, 2011)

There are ways.  Most inevitably can be "broken" for unlimited healing.  Broken in quotes because with wands of CLW and Lesser Vigor, a party basically has unlimited out of combat healing by level 3 anyways.

One combo I remember is Mechanatrix (+1 LA race, heals from electricity damage) + Storm Bolt reserve feat.


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## Tharkon (Jul 7, 2011)

As long as your DM is fine with it you could acquire an item that absorbs damage and heals it, probably some kind of armour, maybe an amulet or belt.

I found the Mechanatrix in the Fiend Folio, +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Dex, -2 Cha, could make an interesting Wizard build if your DM allows it. I wonder if it's possible to include your own spacing in the area of a fired line though. Maybe if you fire it trough yourself attacking your rear.
I don't think by DM would allow this race atm, I don't think he allows any planetouched atm.


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## Imperialus (Jul 12, 2011)

Ultimately D&D's armour system is borked and has been since 1974...  Mainly because they tried to combine (conservatively) 700 years of armour evolution (from 8th and 9th century mail) right through to 16th century articulated plate.  It's a little tougher to nail down the evolution of lighter armours like leather jacks and the like since no artifacts have survived and artists weren't real keen on depicting common soldiers in artwork or statues, but you can trace the evolution of the heavy armours and based on that alone D&D makes zero sense.

Realistically you'd see a small subset of each of those armours in use at any point in time.  In a lower tech campaign say 9th-10th century you'd see leather, ringmail and mail coats as the predominant armour types since combat was mostly fought on foot and armour was needed to protect from blows either aimed directly at the torso or towards the head and shoulders.

After that in the 11th century you see the evolution of the halburk to protect a horsemans legs, and later still by the 1st and second crusades, mail leggings to further protect him.

A century or so later you'd start seeing things like coats of plate worn in conjunction with mail and start to see things like gambsoons (padded armour) and brigadine replacing the lighter armour.

The next couple centuries were spent gradually replacing mail with plates through varying stages of transitional armour

By the late middle ages you'll start seeing full suits of articulated plate though gambsoons remained popular.  By this point in time too armourers had figured out how to 'mass produce' munitions quality breastplates and the like for liverymen and other professional but non noble soldiers.  

The key thing though is that by the time superior armour types began to be available the older armour types just weren't used any more.  Even a "poor" knight during the 15th century would not wear a mail halburk.  It was no longer effective against the weapons of the time.  Coats of plate were invented in around the 12th century to protect the wearer from the impact of lance strikes since by then the mounted charge had become the primary tactic and a mail halburk was not going to stand up to a lance strike at all.  Mail would not be 'cheaper' than whatever the modern equivalent is.  There would naturally be some overlap, armour was bloody expensive and every knight on the battlefield would not necessarily be on the cutting edge of technology but there is no way that you would see the range of armour types that D&D assumes.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 12, 2011)

It's also presumably trying to cover the armors of various civilizations and geographic areas aside from just Europe, also.


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## Tharkon (Jul 14, 2011)

Imperialus said:


> ...there is no way that you would see the range of armour types that D&D assumes.




Considering the range of weaponry available in D&D it could make sense. If you wanted to make it historically accurate you would have to remove weapons first since armor is a response to weapons. You'd also have to remove magic, and all the various magical creatures, so that battle tactics become more important. Otherwise buildings and castles would even look different, cause in a world with dragons and other flying nuisances and the ability of a magician to grant knights the ability to fly, castles would have developed full roofs much sooner.

All in all, I'm starting to think D&D just isn't meant to be historically accurate as presented in the book. It's up to the DM to pick a setting and decide how accurate it is. In other games with magic sometimes metal conducts magical energy and leather (especially made from tough creatures like dragons) and wooden armor become a lot more popular.

I think it's better to provide a full range of possible items and let the DM decide what is available.


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