# Heroes#10: The Eclipse : Part 1/Nov2008



## Truth Seeker (Nov 24, 2008)

*The Eclipse Part 1*

Stars:Jack Coleman (Noah Bennet/HRG)
Zachary Quinto (Gabriel Gray/Sylar)
Milo Ventimiglia (Peter Petrelli)
Adrian Pasdar (Nathan Petrelli)
Hayden Panettiere (Claire Bennet)
Masi Oka (Hiro Nakamura)
James Kyson Lee (Ando Masahashi)
Ali Larter (Tracy Strauss)
Greg Grunberg (Matt Parkman)

Recurring Role:Brea Grant (Daphne Millbrook)
Robert Forster (Arthur Petrelli)
Jimmy Jean-Louis (The Haitian)
Kristen Bell (Elle Bishop)

Guest Star:Seth Green (Sam)
Breckin Meyer (Frack)

The dark eclipse plays havoc with the heroes' powers. Arthur orders Elle and Sylar to bring in Claire. Hiro, Ando, and Matt follow Daphne to her hometown to learn what hold Arthur has on her, and Peter and Nathan travel to the Haitian's hometown to recruit him for the war with Pinehearst.​


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## Darkwolf71 (Nov 24, 2008)

well, I have to say. I stopped watching Heroes out of disgust a month or so back. Being on vacation this week, I spent the time off catching up with my DVR. Watching with much lowered expectations had an interesting effect, I actually enjoyed the series again for the first time since the season premier.

The Eclipse should be interesting at least.


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## Felon (Nov 24, 2008)

Truth Seeker said:


> The dark eclipse plays havoc with the heroes' powers. Arthur orders Elle and Sylar to bring in Claire. Hiro, Ando, and Matt follow Daphne to her hometown to learn what hold Arthur has on her, and Peter and Nathan travel to the Haitian's hometown to recruit him for the war with Pinehearst.



Going to war? Get a shotgun and blow off Arthur's head. And Knox's and Sylar's and anyone else who gets in your way. Superheroes are a lot more manageable without solid defenses against high-powered firearms.


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## Brown Jenkin (Nov 25, 2008)

Real time comentary:

9:01: Maybe Arthur is writing the comic book now.

9:02: Shut up Mohinder.

9:02: With emo absorbtion comes the inability to use them. Once more.

9:03: I thought Tim Kring wasn't going to do romance.

9:03: Poor Claire. At least Ma Parelli is still smart. But then she hasn't met Mohinder yet.

9:05: Peter is confused. When he had his abilities he still didn't know what his purpose was.

9:06: Well that was a lovely metaphor for Mohinder.

9:06: Quit teasing us with threats of killing characters.

9:07: Sorry Pa. Nothing is going to change. The writers keep teasing us, but I won't be fooled anymore.

9:11: Yea, Parkman and Daphne. Even if Daphne is a betrayer and lier. While some people get mad because of others future actions, Matt falls in love.

9:12: Boy that was easy for Matt.

9 Yea, HRG. This episode holds some promise.

9:14: Ando and Daphne are great together.

9:14: Yea, Turtle. Maybe Turtle saves Hiro too. Now all we need is Lyle.

9:16: Come on Syler kill him. And Elle too for good measure. Also once more Elle has a personality change. I think her father gave her MPD.

9:19: Comercials: McDonalds sure has cut its advertising budget. That was a really bad comercial for them.

9:21: This sure seems to me a supernatural eclipse. Slowest eclipse ever.

9:21: Die Monder Die. I don't care why just die.

9:22: Maybe HRG shoots Claire durring the eclipse and she ends up dying.

9:23: Tracy seems to be hit by the Mohinder stupidity power as well.

9:24: Come Ma Patrelli, you recognize her as a traitor. Kill her.

9:25: Good thing there is only one corn farm in Kansas. 

9:25: That is one cool eclipse the way it happens at the same time everywhere at once. It seems there are no sience consultants on this show. 

9:26: Eeewww, Sylar and Elle kissing. And one more tease of deaths that won't occur.

9:29: Comercials: Does NBC really think Heroes and Rosie have the same audience?

9:30: Eeewww, naked Mohinder.

9:31: Supersonic flight ends in a safe crash landing?

9:33: Matts powers not working results in strange faces. LOL.

9:34: Continuity error. The windows inside the house had full daylight in the middle of the eclipse.

9:35: Definately a magic eclipse. Haiti and Kansas at the same time. 

9:35: If the eclipse takes the Haitian's powers away will anyone notice?

9:37: HRG is way to good to be hit by Claire.

9:38: Just shoot her dammit. Come on HRG shoot both of them.

9:39: Yea, down goes Claire.  The eclipe must be temporary. And the writers wuss out and don't have HRG kill them while he has a chance. I am now convinced no one will die ever.

9:42: Commercials and a thought: If Nathan is a Senator he sure doesn't seem to care about doing his job. And only one staffer? Really?

9:43: Your eclipse, now even longer by plot demands. Someone turn on the news to so we can learn what the scientists have to say about this magical event.

9:45: LOL: Go Hiro, throw more corn.

9:47: Mohinder's super stupidity still seems to work.

9:47: That is going to be one long Eclipse if Mohinder can find a solution before it ends.

9:48: But how does the Haitian know his powers don't work.

9:50: If bullets would only kill them.

9:50: What no warning about his powers. How did Pa Patrelli know the powers would stop?

9:51: Comercials and a thought. This would be a really cool way to go into Volume 4, All the powers are stripped away and they can start fresh. Volume 4 can cover limited numbers of people rediscovering their powers. Too bad we won't be so lucky.

9:55: The neverending eclipse continues.

9:56: Come Mom, on I want to see a HRG revenge killing spree.

9:57: Cool, Daphne's character is way cool.

9:59: I hope most of them stay human. But will the writers stop the moon forever?

9:59: Eeewww, please kill them HRG.

10:00: Not much of a preview.

I will have to think about it more to rate it. Somewhere between a 6 and an 8 on a scale of 10.


Edit: Real time editing.


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## Darth Shoju (Nov 25, 2008)

Well, it looks like they're hitting the reset button on this series. Can't say I object at this point. Even though it involved even more painfully awful character inconsistency (Elle and Sylar -- really, what the hell? I want them to be evil again, but this just makes no sense), I'm glad they are reversing some of the more atrocious decisions of this season.

And, even though there was still wide-scale nonsense in the episode, I thought the characters felt much more convincing. The reveal about Daphne's condition was pretty cool too.

We'll see what part two holds. It might go a long way to restoring my faith in the series.

Or, it might not.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 25, 2008)

Just before one commercial break, some dude hits Sylar with a gun and says, "I'll be a hero!"

Sylar replies, " (ominous glower) . . . I _hate_ heroes."

I shout, "Me too!"


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## Darth Shoju (Nov 25, 2008)

RangerWickett said:


> Just before one commercial break, some dude hits Sylar with a gun and says, "I'll be a hero!"
> 
> Sylar replies, " (ominous glower) . . . I _hate_ heroes."
> 
> I shout, "Me too!"




LOL, yeah I thought that was an easy setup. I'm glad someone hit it out of the park.


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 25, 2008)

At least Heroes has one good thing going for it...  The SAG might go on strike which will bring bringing Heroes V4 to an premature pre-production end.


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## Mark (Nov 25, 2008)

RangerWickett said:


> Just before one commercial break, some dude hits Sylar with a gun and says, "I'll be a hero!"
> 
> Sylar replies, " (ominous glower) . . . I _hate_ heroes."
> 
> I shout, "Me too!"





Too much free time?


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## Dire Bare (Nov 25, 2008)

RangerWickett said:


> I shout, "Me too!"



What I don't get is why most of the people who post in ENWorld's "Heroes" threads even watch the show.  If it is so crappy, why do you watch?


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 25, 2008)

Dire Bare said:


> What I don't get is why most of the people who post in ENWorld's "Heroes" threads even watch the show.  If it is so crappy, why do you watch?




It's a train  wreck... that or we are all masochists.


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## Wycen (Nov 25, 2008)

We should start a petition so that Brown Jenkin has to give real time comments on every episode of Heroes (or whatever other show we can agree upon once Heroes is gone).

Maybe you've been doing that, but I only remember last weeks.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 25, 2008)

Alright.

What the hell was with the Elle and Sylar plotline? All is going more or less swimmingly from their perspective, and Sylar is being (probably) a good double agent (Angela's Dream tells it true), and all of a sudden...

BAM!!


Out of frikkin' NOWHERE Elle decides to foment domestic terroism - or at least a good old fashioned super villain murder and robbery without any remotely good reason for doing so - just...."because"?

And Sylar goes along with it? Just because? He's never kicked the crap out of normals just for kicks before. WTH was that all about?

Everything else was more or less ok (though Masi Oka must be pissed off at this turn of events his character has taken on the show...) but the Elle and Sylar thing was like someone in grade 8 - whose Dad is a writer on the show -  hopped on Dad's laptop and changed the script just before the shoot.

text to BFF: "ZOMG!! Like, you wouldn't BELIEVE it. Dad left his laptop on at the kitchen table!!!!".
BFF texts back: "ZOMG!!!!! Is the script there? Change it and let's watch what happens!"
text to BFF: "Wouldn't that be, like, totally cool?"
BFF texts back: "Oh, like, totally, Do it!!!1111!!"

*meh*

Digging deeper - I suppose you could chalk it up to Elle trying to save Claire's life and improvising on the fly - by randomly killing some rental guy, hoping that the cops would be on the way and stop them - or at least alert the Company...

Of course - just HOW Elle and Sylar know where to go tp find Claire is not at all clear. At least - it was not clear to me.

And when HRG is about to kill Sylar, Elle gets conflicted and goes to save her new love by shooting HRG, and bedlam ensues.

I guess, that's the best spin you could put on it all in there's-a-method-to-her-madness land.

But it still just came off totally wrong.


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 25, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> Alright.
> 
> What the hell was with the Elle and Sylar plotline?
> 
> ...




I think Sylar has the "plot convenience" power...  That or Lyle Bennet once again tipped Sylar off to Claire's location (since we all know he resents her).

Or...  maybe Elle has been hanging out with Mohinder.


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## Brown Jenkin (Nov 25, 2008)

Wycen said:


> We should start a petition so that Brown Jenkin has to give real time comments on every episode of Heroes (or whatever other show we can agree upon once Heroes is gone).
> 
> Maybe you've been doing that, but I only remember last weeks.




Thanks,

Its only been the last few weeks. I'm not sure why I started but I am having fun with it right now.


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## Brown Jenkin (Nov 25, 2008)

After thinking about things I have decided to go with my lower rating of 6/10. While there were some good character moments it was the science that leaves me upset. By this I don't mean the magical eclipse that covers everything and lasts forever. No my problem is that the show has spent a lot of time telling us that powers were genetic and that could be replicated via chemistry, and then this episode happens which makes an eclipse effect the powers. I need a really fast explanation of how this is possible.


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## satori01 (Nov 25, 2008)

It was a "Meh" espisode for me.  "Everything is going to change" and yet nothing really did.  The Nathan/ Peter dialogue was annoying to me.   I loved Nathan in season 1 but his character has reached an end.  Moreover Flight is just not useful enough in the context the show finds itself.

Too much banal character "personal" troubles and not enough plot /arc.  Note to Hereos.....you do not have good actors.....(Peter *cough* Matt* cough tracy*), please do not give the sensitive scenes that really would play well with acting touch and subtlety.


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## Elodan (Nov 25, 2008)

Can someone explain the whole Clair-bear is the catalyst thing?

Didn't a bunch of people already have powers before Clair was born (Adam Monroe I'm looking at you)?

I thought the show was getting better but it's seems to have relapsed with this episode.  I'm a tad worried that Vol. 4 will be called "Fugitives."


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## apoptosis (Nov 25, 2008)

Felon said:


> Going to war? Get a shotgun and blow off Arthur's head. And Knox's and Sylar's and anyone else who gets in your way. Superheroes are a lot more manageable without solid defenses against high-powered firearms.




This has always been my issue with superheroes stories. Many times a friggin gun is more useful than their powers. Yeah throwing flame is great, a gun will be as effective in most cases.

It has always been the fatal flaw of most of these stories for me.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 25, 2008)

apoptosis said:


> This has always been my issue with superheroes stories. Many times a friggin gun is more useful than their powers. Yeah throwing flame is great, a gun will be as effective in most cases.




Or hitting them in the head with a wooden floorboard.  

There were some pretty cool scenes in this episode - mostly involving HRG - but that wasn't really enough to boost it over meh.  People having powers is what makes the show interesting, so it's kind of dumb to take them away.  Except for Peter, who is pretty awesome without powers, and the Haitian, who is pretty awesome all the time.

My vote for the story getting the axe this week is Hiro/Ando/Matt/Daphne.  It was a decent story... better than Elle/Sylar or Mohinder/Arthur, and a decent setup (people rely too much on powers).  However, it really didn't add anything to the movement of the story.  Also, add me to the list of people feeling bad for Masi Oka.

I think Elle/Sylar would have been a decent story with a little more context/subtext/explanation of what was going on.  I get the impression that _both_ of them were going to betray Arthur, and neither picked up on the other.  Elle was trying to convert Sylar, Sylar was trying to ignore Elle.  It was just a mess, and it needed a little more blatant exposition.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Nov 25, 2008)

Dire Bare said:


> What I don't get is why most of the people who post in ENWorld's "Heroes" threads even watch the show. If it is so crappy, why do you watch?



PLEASE tell me why I watch.  I can no longer justify it to myself, but I can't stop.  I need an intervention - or involuntary commitment or something.  I think the only thing that continues to draw me in are the hot women.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 25, 2008)

weak 4/10 - had some good character interaction but overall WTF, unless there is a freaking big mutant floating around the earth, this one sucked.  It did not move the story forward that I could see.


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 25, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Its only been the last few weeks. I'm not sure why I started but I am having fun with it right now.




Brown Jenkin, if you continue posting them could you place the real time reviews in a spoiler box?  That way those people who don't like seeing the spoilers could ignore them, while those of us who live on the west coast could still read them (to decide whether an episode is worth watching).





Elodan said:


> Can someone explain the whole Clair-bear is the catalyst thing?
> 
> Didn't a bunch of people already have powers before Clair was born (Adam Monroe I'm looking at you)?




1) The writers love watching her run around in her skintight tops
2) The writers did not have the entire plot planned out when they killed off Adam.
3) PA Patrelli is creepy old man with incestuous pederastic tendencies.




LightPhoenix said:


> My vote for the story getting the axe this week is Hiro/Ando....
> 
> SNIP
> 
> However, it really didn't add anything to the movement of the story.  Also, add me to the list of people feeling bad for Masi Oka.




I seriously wonder what he did to get the producers and writers pissed at him.  Seriously, if they writers cared for Hiro's character the scene in PArkman's Apartment would have gone like this:

Ando:  Matt Parkman, you have to fix Hiro.  He think's he's 10 years old.
Matt:   But I need to go find Daphne..  I love her..
Hiro:   < Hello Mr. Turtlesan, I have super powers.  Do you have super powers?   >
Ando:  < #%^& !!!> Hiro's talking to the turtle again..  You need to do something quick...
Matt:  I don't know if I could help him..  Let me try..
*Matt makes strange faces as he tries to read Hiro's mind and hiro makes strange faces*
Hiro's Thoughts:  < Parkersan makes me laugh.  He looks constipated. >
Matt:  I can't understand him.... He's thinking in Japanese..
Ando: Then read my mind... I'll help you understand Japanese...
Matt:  I don't know...
Ando:  Just try!
*Matt makes a funny face as he tries to read Ando's thoughts*
Matt:  Just who are you calling a lazy fat bastard?!?!

**Commercial Break**

*Fade in as Matt is reading Hiro's mind*
*Suddenly a smile breaks out on Hiro's face*
Hiro:  Parkmansan! You have a turtle!
Matt:  We have no time!  I have to go find Daphne!  She thought about going back home.. to a farm in Nebraska.  You have to take me there!
Hiro:  Who is Daphne?
Ando: Nemesis...
Hiro:  Eh?  You're dating the bad guy?
Matt:  It's a long story....


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## Arnwyn (Nov 25, 2008)

Darth Shoju said:


> Even though it involved even more painfully awful character inconsistency (Elle and Sylar -- really, what the hell?



No kidding. What. The. Hell. was that? We couldn't figure out what the hell was going on. What was that whole sequence?

And it was a damn, damn (damn) shame that Bennett didn't break Elle's neck after bashing her, and/or grab the gun and put a bullet in each of their heads. A wasted opportunity that would have made the show tons better, for me.



> And, even though there was still wide-scale nonsense in the episode, I thought the characters felt much more convincing. The reveal about Daphne's condition was pretty cool too.



Agreed. That was the best part of the episode and stopped me from entirely throwing my hands up in the air in disgust.



			
				Dire Bare said:
			
		

> What I don't get is why most of the people who post in ENWorld's "Heroes" threads even watch the show. If it is so crappy, why do you watch?



Stupid hope. (_Long_ since covered in previous threads, BTW. Sorry you missed it.)


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## Felon (Nov 25, 2008)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> PLEASE tell me why I watch.  I can no longer justify it to myself, but I can't stop.  I need an intervention - or involuntary commitment or something.  I think the only thing that continues to draw me in are the hot women.



Hey, the basic concept of Heroes is pure coolness for a comic fan. The execution is what's hurting here, giving us a profound impression that there's a "making it up as we go along" strategy at work. 

The eclipse can be the mcguffin that saves the show. Many characters have powers that need to be reined in, and this is the opportunity to do it.


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## Felon (Nov 25, 2008)

Elodan said:


> Can someone explain the whole Clair-bear is the catalyst thing?
> 
> Didn't a bunch of people already have powers before Clair was born (Adam Monroe I'm looking at you)?



Well, there's the possibility that Claire is not the first catalyst. There's also the possiblity that the catalyst triggers the next big push forward, triggering powers in greater numbers.

The show was based on the premise of "save the cheerleader, save the world", but once Sylar actually managed to do what he spent season 1 trying to do (take her powers), it begged the question of what the point of her is. She's supposed to be important in the show's mythos, and if she's not then Claire really ought to just go back to school once nobody cares about getting their hands on her anymore. So, they cooked up the catalyst idea.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 25, 2008)

Felon said:


> The show was based on the premise of "save the cheerleader, save the world", but once Sylar actually managed to do what he spent season 1 trying to do (take her powers), it begged the question of what the point of her is.




This reminds me of the original idea for the show - a rotating cast of characters, some of whom would leave or become background characters once their story was over.  I wish they had stuck with that idea... then they wouldn't be forced into shoehorning characters into a story.  We could still get glimpses of Claire's life through HRG, for example.  Ah well.

Also, while I feel bad for Masi Oka, I think I feel worse for Ramamurthy... mostly because his character has been crapped on the most.  I remember a quote that was generally, "If Suresh says something about a power, it's usually correct."

Sorry, all nostalgic.  High school reunion coming up this Friday.


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## JoeGKushner (Nov 25, 2008)

If the characters could stick with one character development for say, three episodes, I might start enjoying the show.

As it is, I'm watching it now with the HOPE that it'll get better.


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 25, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:


> Also, while I feel bad for Masi Oka, I think I feel worse for Ramamurthy... mostly because his character has been crapped on the most.




That's not even mentioning that Surresh routinely appears on many the "most worthless characters" and "most annoying characters" lists that many entertainment magazines and blogs create.   It's one thing to play a character that is despised because (s)/he is a bad guy but it is another to have one that is despised due to bad writing.  Thankfully for Ramamurthy, Surresh wasn't conceived as being a comic relief character, because if he were, he would be the Heroes equivalent of Jar-Jar


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## Brown Jenkin (Nov 26, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> Brown Jenkin, if you continue posting them could you place the real time reviews in a spoiler box?  That way those people who don't like seeing the spoilers could ignore them, while those of us who live on the west coast could still read them (to decide whether an episode is worth watching).




No problem, I will try to remember next time.


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## fba827 (Nov 26, 2008)

Elodan said:


> Can someone explain the whole Clair-bear is the catalyst thing?
> 
> Didn't a bunch of people already have powers before Clair was born (Adam Monroe I'm looking at you)?




She is not the catalyst because of her power to heal.  She is the catalyst because Kito (sp?  Hiro's father) hid the catalyst in her.   There was a conversation a couple episodes ago, regarding this.

As we knew from earlier seasons, Claire was Meridth's daughter who was taken by the company and handed from Kito to the Bennets to protect and raise.  Once they realized there was a catalyst, they tried to figure out where Kito hid it.  At that point, the different companies came to deduce that Kito hid it in Claire.

(Claire figured it out as a result of Sylar seeing something different in her brain and saying she was special; Arthur figured it out after reviewing case files that had both Hiro and Claire's profile in it)


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## Ed_Laprade (Nov 26, 2008)

So...

An eclipse that lasts forever, everywhere at once, and doesn't actually darken anything. (Except in one shot at the farm.)

The whole Elle/Sylar thing.

Peter and Nathan in a rainforest in Haiti. I've seen infrared satalite photos of Haiti, there aren't any left.

If HRG was not going to take Claire to a hospital, but go back and shoot Sylar, why didn't he do so _before_ he left?

Elle might have lost her zap power, but she obviously picked up super healing. Otherwise her jaw would have been dislocated, if not shattered. (But there's not a bruise to be seen.)

Claire-bear and dad get back together again. Dad immediately breaks a promise. Back to square one.

Mohindar: the less said the better.

The Parkman/Ando/Hiro/Daphne storyline was the only good thing in the episode.

That's it, I'm done. The show is just too stupid for words.


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## DonTadow (Nov 26, 2008)

Felon said:


> Hey, the basic concept of Heroes is pure coolness for a comic fan. The execution is what's hurting here, giving us a profound impression that there's a "making it up as we go along" strategy at work.
> 
> The eclipse can be the mcguffin that saves the show. Many characters have powers that need to be reined in, and this is the opportunity to do it.



I beg to differ, I think the problem with Heroes is that it tried to be the anti-comic book. It took a concept best suited for a one shot graphic novel and tried to stretch it to a comic book.

First it has "heroes" who have a wide range of powers.  Not in variety, but in scope.  You have flight guy, which is a basic.. not even real power in most comic book heroes, in the same class as a guy who can control time and space.  This type of world can only exist for a little time (one season) before it becomes too silly. You have to figure out reasons why these powers don't make them powerful. (we'll make him a 10 year old kid, we'll nurf his powers... repeatedly).  Else all of your plots would be shot to hell with (i just go back in time and change it, i just stop time and do what i need to do).  Whereas season 1 had a few notable deaths in it, seasons 2 and 3 are trying to keep a cast together and drag on a nonstory. 

Thinking of season 1 like a graphic novel, it had a beginning and an end. It was about something.  There was a serial killer killing the mutants and a nuclear bomb set to go off soon.  Season 3 seems to be consisently being rewritten.  This eclipse seems important, yet it wasn't mentioned until a few weeks ago (if that).  Whereas powers were described as genetic, it can not be provided through a formula and to a magical all covering the world for 24 hours eclipse.  

Because this show did not go in a different direction at the beginning of season 3, i doubt it will get picked up for a full 24 eps next year.  Tim Kring's loyalty to his actors was the death of him.  He should have stuck with his original concept, a different "graphic novel" every season.  Maybe kept 2 or 3 heroes a season, have the other pop up here and there.  

Knowing all this, I watch cause its the only decent scifi show on tv.  It's often a trainwreck.  

I don't buy the reasoning that "oh its just a comic book" . I wouldn't continue to read a comic book written so poorly sometimes.  Really a 24 hour multiple solar eclipse all day.  Serious Plot Device.


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## Darth Shoju (Nov 26, 2008)

Dire Bare said:


> What I don't get is why most of the people who post in ENWorld's "Heroes" threads even watch the show.  If it is so crappy, why do you watch?




I absolutely loved Season One (still do). I actually liked the second half of Season Two. I was looking forward to the beginning of Season Three more than any other show I can remember in a long time. So far it has been horribly disappointing, but not enough to make me forget what I enjoyed about the series. I keep hoping it will return to greatness, but that hope is fading fast.

Ultimately, it is just a TV show, and I'm not going to stress myself out over it -- one of these days I'll just stop watching it. Frankly, if I didn't have a DVR that day would have likely come some time ago.


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## Mark (Nov 26, 2008)

How about a full episode with nothing but Claire _bare_?


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## Felon (Nov 26, 2008)

Mark said:


> How about a full episode with nothing but Claire _bare_?



Sure, we can have an episode where she develops the power to apply makeup properly. She's looked pretty waxy-faced in a few episodes.


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## Felon (Nov 26, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> I beg to differ, I think the problem with Heroes is that it tried to be the anti-comic book. It took a concept best suited for a one shot graphic novel and tried to stretch it to a comic book.
> 
> First it has "heroes" who have a wide range of powers.  Not in variety, but in scope.  You have flight guy, which is a basic.. not even real power in most comic book heroes, in the same class as a guy who can control time and space.  This type of world can only exist for a little time (one season) before it becomes too silly. You have to figure out reasons why these powers don't make them powerful. (we'll make him a 10 year old kid, we'll nurf his powers... repeatedly).  Else all of your plots would be shot to hell with (i just go back in time and change it, i just stop time and do what i need to do).  Whereas season 1 had a few notable deaths in it, seasons 2 and 3 are trying to keep a cast together and drag on a nonstory.
> 
> Thinking of season 1 like a graphic novel, it had a beginning and an end. It was about something.  There was a serial killer killing the mutants and a nuclear bomb set to go off soon.  Season 3 seems to be consisently being rewritten.  This eclipse seems important, yet it wasn't mentioned until a few weeks ago (if that).  Whereas powers were described as genetic, it can not be provided through a formula and to a magical all covering the world for 24 hours eclipse.



Not sure how anything you say here amounts to begging to differ. 

The basic concept for Heroes is fine. But building on it, they should've taken into account proper scaling of abilities. It's not like comic books are jam-packed full of superheroes that have the power to travel back in time and change history. There's a reason for that. The ability to copy other folks' powers is usually the realm of a BBEG (e.g. Amazo, Super-Adaptoid); when Heroes can do it, it's usually with significant limitations (Rogue, Mimic). Conversely, most comic book writers would understand the limited potential of a character that's a petite little girl with a purely defensive power. For some reason, the writers of Heroes thought they could get away with it.


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## Felon (Nov 26, 2008)

Ed_Laprade said:


> So...
> 
> An eclipse that lasts forever, everywhere at once, and doesn't actually darken anything. (Except in one shot at the farm.)



Heh. That bugged me too. Eclipses are brief events. Those heavenly bodies are moving around at pretty fast clip. 

I can live with HRG not taking the time to murder Elle and Sylar properly; that's a standard trope in fiction (along with not confiscating weapons from fallen enemies).


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 26, 2008)

Felon said:


> I can live with HRG not taking the time to murder Elle and Sylar properly; that's a standard trope in fiction (along with not confiscating weapons from fallen enemies).




The problem with trope is that it has to make sense within the characters.  Here's the problem I see with that scene:

1) HRG is blinded by need to protect Claire, carries her off and ignores finishing Elle and Sylar.  Yet, he'll go and leave her when she's vulnerable to return and finish them off?

2) HRG is the bad-ass we know him to be and can (and would) finish Elle and Sylar, but chooses instead to whisk away Claire, whom he says has a flesh wound?

The two are mutually exclusive.  Either HRG is merciless and kills Elle and Sylar when he gets the chance, or HRG is merciful and protects Claire at the expense of leaving Elle and Sylar alive.

The way I think the scene _should_ have played is that HRG finishes the beat-down on the two, and draws his gun for the kill, assuming Claire is fine due to healing.  Then she cries out (and is actually hurt), and HRG has to make a choice to do one or the other... but absolutely not both.  It's not a choice if he can choose to do both.  I'm thinking back to the S1 scene where HRG/Haitian are going to catch Peter/Claude, but HRG has to abandon that to attend to Sandra.


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## Shayuri (Nov 26, 2008)

Here's my take on things:

First, yeah, it's a mess. A real disappointment. Having gotten that out of the way...

Elle, in the wake of her catharsis from Syler deconstructing her with his empathy (nngh), has become a rogue agent. No longer beholden to the Company, nor Pinehurst, she's decided that she, and Sylar, can do whatever they want...so why not do it? This is the agenda she pushes on Sylar...who continues to be ridiculously easily manipulated in this entire season. This is one of the many, many examples of weak, lazy writing in Season 3. Whenever they need Sylar to switch sides, they just have someone say a paragraph or so, and bam. Done. Swapped. He's done it THREE times now.

Sylar knew where Claire was because he's "analyzed" HRG's brainz0rs from when HRG and he were trading barbs. We've sort of seen this from Sylar before...it's not psychic so much as just having a quick ability to gauge a person's inner workings. Of course, I'm not sure how this would give him access to one of the -many dozens of places- HRG could have taken Claire. Especially when Sylar didn't even KNOW Claire had gone after Black Hole Man, and had no way of knowing that. Weak and lazy writing.

The theory of the eclipse seems to be: the powers started with an eclipse, and an eclipse can turn them off too. Why? Eh. I get a definite feeling that they're trying for a Hail Mary here...a sort of Crisis on Infinite Earths resolution to all of the innumerable continuity problems that their overuse of time travel, inconsistant pseudoscience, and the fiasco of Season 2 left them with. Reset to start positions. No one has powers again. Claire's good again. Sylar's bad again. Take it from the top, people.

It's gimmicky, and silly, but if it puts an end to the madness and lets them have a stab at recapturing what made the show great in the first place, I'll be fine with it. Everything now rests on what they do next.

My prediction is that when the eclipse is over, powers will return. Most likely gradually...though possibly with dramatic speed. Alternatively, Hiro will do something (the "I have a plan" clause) like bend time to make another eclipse that turns powers back on.

Sorta like The Clapper. Eclipse on! Eclipse off!

They'll be reset though. So Vampire Dad will have to start over. Peter will start over. Sylar will start over. Of course, with Peter that's not much of a burden...it is possible (though unlikely) that they'll find some other way to neuter him, up to and including killing him during the eclipse or before he absorbs Claire again.

I think Sylar will wind up killing Dad and taking his stuff.

I think Nathan will finally go public with superpowers, and this time Peter will either let it happen, or he'll be dead so he can't come back AGAIN. Then next season, if there is one, will be about the public reaction to superpeople, and the possibility of the show's mythology progressing onto things like supergroups, laws for powers, tension between normal people and superpeople...maybe even a cult of celebrity for supers and what that means.

Could be neat. If it was done well. Which I don't have high hopes for.


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## Felon (Nov 26, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:


> The problem with trope is that it has to make sense within the characters.  Here's the problem I see with that scene:
> 
> 1) HRG is blinded by need to protect Claire, carries her off and ignores finishing Elle and Sylar.  Yet, he'll go and leave her when she's vulnerable to return and finish them off?
> 
> ...



How about this: when Claire got hurt, he's not sure how badly she's injured until after he's gotten her away from Elle and Sylar. After all, unlike us, he didn't know her power wasn't functioning as a result of the eclipse, so he has no idea what's going on with her. At the time of the "whisking away" she could've been dying for all he knew.

So, he gets her out of harm's way, ascertains that she doesn't need urgent medical attention, drops her off, then runs back to snipe the two nutjobs--just in time for the eclipse to end, of course, and be unable to seal the deeal.


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 26, 2008)

Felon said:


> How about this: when Claire got hurt, he's not sure how badly she's injured until after he's gotten her away from Elle and Sylar. After all, unlike us, he didn't know her power wasn't functioning as a result of the eclipse, so he has no idea what's going on with her. At the time of the "whisking away" she could've been dying for all he knew.




I'm assuming that someone who is essentially a trained assassin, like HGR, would know that the wound was serious or not.

From a still of the scene where Claire was shot, the bullet hit her below the collarbone.  If any vital organs were hit, it would have been her lungs resulting in a collapsed lung (she would be experiencing difficulty in breathing).  No matter what, its most likely the bullet hit a bone and is still lodged in her body since there was no blood splattering on the wall opposite of her.  If this is the case then she is extremely likely to have severe if not critical internal injuries from the bone shards piercing her lungs or any other organs. 

Fortunately, we all know Claire is still conscious and lucid (which is strange since she should be suffering from shock, and thus should be unconscious if not in extreme pain).  However, from the teaser we know that once she is taken to the hospital she wasn't admitted into the emergency room and as a result she goes into Cardiac Arrest.

CONCLUSION:  Heroes volume 3 takes place in the spring of 2007 and Claire was admitted into King-Drew Hospital before it was closed.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 26, 2008)

Some people wonder why they are still watching Heroes, I wonder why I am still reading the threads! All this negativity... Terrible. 

I liked this episode. Despite stuff like incredibly long-lasting eclipses and so on... 

There were a lot of funny moments when the heroes and villains tried to use their powers using their typical gesture and mimic and seeing it didn't work. (A small gift to us fans who, thanks to SFX in most of these scenes, don't see even half of how ridicilous the actors have to look for making these?  )


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## Grymar (Nov 26, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Some people wonder why they are still watching Heroes, I wonder why I am still reading the threads! All this negativity... Terrible.




Exactly.  I'm going to stop reading these Heroes threads.  I used to love coming here to talk about it but now it is just a pile of complaints.

No, it sure isn't perfect and there are some things I don't like a lot, but I still love the show and look forward to it weekly.


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## Shayuri (Nov 26, 2008)

I still want to see how it ends, basically.

I've really liked it, but I can't handwave the many problems. I don't think I'm as critical as some (in particular, I don't think anyone "needs to die"), but I've definitely soured on the show since it's inception.

Sticking with it though. Heroes at its worst is better than most TV.

I also think HRG is, and remains, the best realized character on the show. Him leaving with Claire made perfect sense to me. Claire was hurt. Flesh wound or no, her safety is -first- for HRG. He evacuates her, fully planning even then to return, track them down if need be, and finish them.

The "rehabilitation" of Claire was welcome in this episode, largely because the "evilification" of Claire never felt very well done or believable. Not because it was based on bad premises or was even badly acted...it was just rushed. Rushed rushed rushed. Everything had to happen too fast.

Is it just me, or does Season 3 feel...haphazard? Like they started with an idea, then scrapped it partway through, then scrapped it again...it has this weird stop and start thing, where just when pieces are coming together, suddenly everything changes...and not in a cool "Wow I didn't see THAT coming!" way, but rather in a bad, "Huh?!?! WTF?!?!" sort of way.

Sorry...little more negativity there, but I was curious to see if that was a general perception or one man's opinion.


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## Simplicity (Nov 27, 2008)

Everything is going to change?  It sure doesn't seem that way.  

I agree with a previous poster.  This season can't figure out where to go.  Oh no!  The world is going to end when everybody gets powers...  And so we must fight Pa Patrelli...  And everyone who was bad is good and good is bad, except for when they change their minds for an episode or two.  Let's see... Sylar was bad.  Then he went good.  Then he pretended to be bad, until now that he's gone bad for good.  Except for in the future where he's good again.

Pa Patrelli: "I can't have someone who can see the future getting in my way, so I'll kill the guy in Africa.  But someone who can VISIT the future?  Him I won't decapitate.  I'll just make him ten so he can cause some real havoc with the timeline."

I'll keep watching it because it's the only thing on television that is even remotely in my sphere of interest.  This is not television's golden age.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 27, 2008)

Shayuri said:


> Here's my take on things:
> 
> I think Nathan will finally go public with superpowers, and this time Peter will either let it happen, or he'll be dead so he can't come back AGAIN. Then next season, if there is one, will be about the public reaction to superpeople, and the possibility of the show's mythology progressing onto things like supergroups, laws for powers, tension between normal people and superpeople...maybe even a cult of celebrity for supers and what that means.
> 
> Could be neat. If it was done well. Which I don't have high hopes for.




I'm going to remember this when I start up a superhero game.


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## Staffan (Nov 27, 2008)

Simplicity said:


> Pa Patrelli: "I can't have someone who can see the future getting in my way, so I'll kill the guy in Africa.  But someone who can VISIT the future?  Him I won't decapitate.  I'll just make him ten so he can cause some real havoc with the timeline."



I got the impression that Arthur intended to do a complete mindwipe on Hiro, but was stopped by Ando tackling him. So he only got like a two thirds of the way through.


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## Felon (Nov 27, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> I'm assuming that someone who is essentially a trained assassin, like HGR, would know that the wound was serious or not.



Well, that's a bold assumption to say the least. Trained assassin or not, an injury needs more than a momentary glance before you can be certain whether or not it's serious. Bullets can ricochet off bone, they can shatter into little pieces, and as you point out, your own skeleton can turn into shrapnel. I don't see it being that incredible that a father would feel an all-consuming reason-defying need to whish his daughter out of danger. HRG has shown that even he is prone that kind of irrational protective instinct. Then the feeling subsides, and he goes back to finish business.


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## Richards (Nov 27, 2008)

Shayuri said:


> Of course, I'm not sure how this would give him access to one of the -many dozens of places- HRG could have taken Claire. Especially when Sylar didn't even KNOW Claire had gone after Black Hole Man, and had no way of knowing that.



Sure he did: he was "partnered" with HRG when they both went after Black Hole Man.  Remember, HRG even tried to get Black Hole Man to kill Sylar for him once and for all right there at the house.

Johnathan


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## DonTadow (Nov 27, 2008)

Felon said:


> Not sure how anything you say here amounts to begging to differ.
> 
> The basic concept for Heroes is fine. But building on it, they should've taken into account proper scaling of abilities. It's not like comic books are jam-packed full of superheroes that have the power to travel back in time and change history. There's a reason for that. The ability to copy other folks' powers is usually the realm of a BBEG (e.g. Amazo, Super-Adaptoid); when Heroes can do it, it's usually with significant limitations (Rogue, Mimic). Conversely, most comic book writers would understand the limited potential of a character that's a petite little girl with a purely defensive power. For some reason, the writers of Heroes thought they could get away with it.



I'm sorry, i only meant to highlight a comment (and that said that heroes was like a comic book my bad) but your'e absolutely right.  What i was trying to say was in a graphic novel with a beginning and an end, you can have heroes who have amazing powers like power absorbtion and not worry too much about nurfing them, justh having villians that can challenge them. But what you cant have is a contious series with a hero who can auto take any power he comes in contact with and not expect him to be more powerful than any villian he comes across.  This and time travel are typical BBEG abilities.  

YOu're right, the writers of heroes wrote themsleves into a corner, having a great first season (the graphic novel) and not knowing where to go from there. Thus the heroes with the most extrodinary powers are treated as being total idiots.  Another problem was that the heroes are stuck with characters with very very basic powers like flight.  Fight is usually a basic ability of a hero, so it seems so forced when they constantly try to maneuver ways to make flight "viable."  

And, because it seems that everyone in the heroes universe has the "warp" ability and always know where to find who they need at the right time, flight (and to an extent instant teleport) are only used as huge plot devices and comes off as forced.

LIke i've said before heroes is one of the better scifi shows on television, a remnant of its former self, and my digust is more or less like a guy watching something he enjoys head to cancelation city. So its difficult for me to just smile and nod at the horrible paths that will prevent a 4th season.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 27, 2008)

Felon said:


> How about this: when Claire got hurt, he's not sure how badly she's injured until after he's gotten her away from Elle and Sylar. After all, unlike us, he didn't know her power wasn't functioning as a result of the eclipse, so he has no idea what's going on with her. At the time of the "whisking away" she could've been dying for all he knew.
> 
> So, he gets her out of harm's way, ascertains that she doesn't need urgent medical attention, drops her off, then runs back to snipe the two nutjobs--just in time for the eclipse to end, of course, and be unable to seal the deeal.




Then it's not really a choice with consequences.

Also, he couldn't check on her at the house quickly, while Elle and Sylar were manhandled?  After all, he didn't even get her on the couch before proclaiming it was a flesh wound.

Also, once he figured out the powers weren't working... given all three failed... he wouldn't take five seconds to cap the two of them?

Ironically, I find the second half much more satisfying... HRG as to make a choice to stay with Claire or persue the baddies... chooses the latter, and then Claire gets worse.  That's consequence, of a minor sort I suppose.



Relique du Madde said:


> I'm assuming that someone who is essentially a trained assassin, like HGR, would know that the wound was serious or not.




I'd disagree.  HRG probably knows nothing about medicine except for the barest of first aid procedures.  It's highly doubtful he's proficient enough to diagnose a gun shot - that's why they have scanners to detect fragments.


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 27, 2008)

Here's a thought:  If you are Sylar and Elle, two people who have first hand experience dealing with someone as ruthless and relentless as HRG,  would you even stick around in the house after seeing HRG leave with Claire?    




LightPhoenix said:


> It's highly doubtful he's proficient enough to diagnose a gun shot - that's why they have scanners to detect fragments.




Yeah, but considering where she was shot its also easy to surmise that the wound would be serious (if not fatal) even if the bullet some how managed to miss her ribs, shoulder blade, or spine before leaving her body.

The best case scenario: The bullet hit Claire beneath her shoulder, essentially hitting her arm pit, while missing several nerves and arteries and her ribs.


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## GSHamster (Nov 27, 2008)

I think you guys are overthinking the HRG thing.  Claire is his weak point (his kryptonite, if you will) where he becomes irrational.

He saw her get hurt, so his first priority was to get her to safety. After she is safe (bandaged, at home, asleep), his rationality reasserts itself and he goes back to take out Sylar/Elle.


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## DonTadow (Nov 27, 2008)

GSHamster said:


> I think you guys are overthinking the HRG thing.  Claire is his weak point (his kryptonite, if you will) where he becomes irrational.
> 
> He saw her get hurt, so his first priority was to get her to safety. After she is safe (bandaged, at home, asleep), his rationality reasserts itself and he goes back to take out Sylar/Elle.



I somewhat buy the scene, but it did feel like one of those instances on heroe where the hero goes stupid to keep people alive.  It only takes a few seconds to plug someone with a bullet hole, not to kill them, but to protect your daughter.  To leave both alive, with a gun endangered him and claire.  

Sure it was a frantic situation, which is why i somewhat buy it.  But that little nagging of "just shoot them both now" is still there.


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## Arnwyn (Nov 27, 2008)

Shayuri said:


> Is it just me, or does Season 3 feel...haphazard?



"Understatement of the... week."


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## Krug (Nov 28, 2008)

The reason I keep watching is that there are some good segments in there. Too bad for the last episode it was just... sucko. Characters behaving bizarrely, acting stupidly (yes what STRANGE EVENT IS CURRENTLY OCCURING THAT IS DRAINING ME OF MY POWERS) and just little sense overall.

Oh well lets hope for lotsa permanent death in the next ep. They need it if they're gonna cut their $4 mil an episode budget.


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## Goodsport (Nov 28, 2008)

Poor Daphne. 


-G


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## Felon (Nov 28, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:


> Then it's not really a choice with consequences.
> 
> Also, he couldn't check on her at the house quickly, while Elle and Sylar were manhandled?  After all, he didn't even get her on the couch before proclaiming it was a flesh wound.
> 
> Also, once he figured out the powers weren't working... given all three failed... he wouldn't take five seconds to cap the two of them?



The way I see it, it's not an issue of what decisions could have or should have made so much as it is whether or not the impulse he acted on is credible. Isn't it likely that by the time he got Claire home he had a better idea that her condition was stable than he did in the middle of a melee with a couple of guys whose powers might, for all he knew, turn back on in an instant? Is HRG enough of a loving father to act on pure protective instinct in the spur of the moment? I'd say yes in both cases, and can give them a pass on that particular inefficient decision.


GSHamster said:


> I think you guys are overthinking the HRG thing.  Claire is his weak point (his kryptonite, if you will) where he becomes irrational.
> 
> He saw her get hurt, so his first priority was to get her to safety. After she is safe (bandaged, at home, asleep), his rationality reasserts itself and he goes back to take out Sylar/Elle.



Right. And besides, although the trip between point A and B happened off-camera, that doesn't it only took two minutes. He probably had time to assert that her pulse wasn't fading, she wasn't bleeding out all over the upholstery, or showing the signs of internal bleeding, et cetera.



DonTadow said:


> Sure it was a frantic situation, which is why i somewhat buy it.  But that little nagging of "just shoot them both now" is still there.



I don't disagree. That's one of those reactions we're used to from watching movies and playing RPG's. Go for the kill.


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## Felon (Nov 28, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> I'm sorry, i only meant to highlight a comment (and that said that heroes was like a comic book my bad) but your'e absolutely right.  What i was trying to say was in a graphic novel with a beginning and an end, you can have heroes who have amazing powers like power absorbtion and not worry too much about nurfing them, justh having villians that can challenge them. But what you cant have is a contious series with a hero who can auto take any power he comes in contact with and not expect him to be more powerful than any villian he comes across.  This and time travel are typical BBEG abilities.
> 
> YOu're right, the writers of heroes wrote themsleves into a corner, having a great first season (the graphic novel) and not knowing where to go from there. Thus the heroes with the most extrodinary powers are treated as being total idiots.  Another problem was that the heroes are stuck with characters with very very basic powers like flight.  Fight is usually a basic ability of a hero, so it seems so forced when they constantly try to maneuver ways to make flight "viable."



Yep, to all of that. They keep giving themselves great situations to write out these characters, and they keep trying to play fake-out instead. 

Do we even know yet how Nathan came back from the dead if Linderman was never actually around to heal him?


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 28, 2008)

Yes. We are left to surmise that Peter used Linderman's power subconsciously to save Nathan.


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## Felon (Nov 28, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> Yes. We are left to surmise that Peter used Linderman's power subconsciously to save Nathan.



How and where is that ever implied?

Do we even know that Future Peter somehow acquired Linderman's powers, depsite Present Peter having never encountered him?


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## Blastin (Nov 29, 2008)

present Peter did encounter Linderman: at least once shown. In Hiro's flashback, at the party at the Patrelli house they are there together. Considering how close Linderman was with the Patrelli family it's not too much of a strech to think Peter was close enought to absorb the power.
  Of course, it is still never implied that Peter did use the power, as far as I remember.


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## dravot (Nov 29, 2008)

Blastin said:


> present Peter did encounter Linderman: at least once shown. In Hiro's flashback, at the party at the Patrelli house they are there together. Considering how close Linderman was with the Patrelli family it's not too much of a strech to think Peter was close enought to absorb the power.
> Of course, it is still never implied that Peter did use the power, as far as I remember.




Were Peter's powers active at that time?


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## Kishin (Nov 30, 2008)

The sooner Arthur Petrelli dies, the better.

Most contrived, one-dimensional, mustache twirling evil character I've seen in awhile. They don't even bother to give him depth, motivation, anything at all.


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## Mark (Nov 30, 2008)

dravot said:


> Were Peter's powers active at that time?





That might have been pre-eclipse.  What was Charles's power, btw?


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 30, 2008)

Mark said:


> That might have been pre-eclipse.  What was Charles's power, btw?




The power of Red Herring since Charles's original power seemed to be the "dreaming" but then they decided to give Angela Patrelli's a similar power (Prophetic/telepathic dreams) at the beginning of this season... Or was it the end of last?


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## F5 (Nov 30, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> The power of Red Herring since Charles's original power seemed to be the "dreaming" but then they decided to give Angela Patrelli's a similar power (Prophetic/telepathic dreams) at the beginning of this season... Or was it the end of last?




I think it was the end of last season, but I can' remember for sure.

And there's no reason they can't both have the Dreaming power.  Which is, apparently, related to the Future Painting power, since the African Painter Guy showed up when Matt jumped into Angela's dream.  Which also implies that the Dreaming power can persist after death, as seen with both Painter Guy and Charles.  And, apparently, has something to do with Matt's mind-reading, since he could get into the Dreams...

I forsee this whole Dreaming thing becoming the same kind of Albatross that Hiro's time travel is.  Or, that it's got untapped depth, that the new writing team will turn into a really interesting and thought-provoking plot element.  Yeah, I'll go with that one...


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