# Help me design a Wayfarer prestige class (now in its third iteration)



## RangerWickett (Mar 1, 2007)

The Wayfarers are one of the organizations in WotBS. Unlike the wayfarer guides in WotC's 'Complete Arcane,' these wayfarers are part circus, part FedEx. They play an important role in the campaign saga, starting in adventure 3. I know what they can do narratively, but I'd like some help making sure they are balanced from a rules perspective.

Take a look at this prestige class, and tell me what you think. I appreciate any and all feedback.

I have attached a revision in post 26, but I'm keeping the original here for comparison.


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## StGabe (Mar 1, 2007)

First of all, not knowing the rules for "teleportation lights you on fire" it's hard to comment.

The requirements for obtaining the class seem light.  Being able to get dimension door and teleport by level 6 and 7 respectively seems pretty damn good.  And being able to do them as swift actions by level 10?  Yeah that's crazy powerful.  But then that may be appropriate for the setting I don't know about that.  I would just think about it in terms of what comparable level 10's can do at that level and see if it's balanced for the setting -- maybe you've already done that in which case, nevermind. 

If you do want to keep it lower level then I would at least tack on some feat requirements.  Some semi-useful feats that are there, more than anything, just to make the character invest heavily in the prestige class before they get all that stuff.  The prereqs as they are, even if balanced, are just way too loose that any roguish character is going to quickly be within a level of qualifying for them.  Presumably these guys should be harder to qualify for, right?

The 1st level spell also seems, at first glance, to be crazy broken.  But then I don't know the "puts you on fire" rules.  First of all I would put a restriction on it that it is anywhere within a line of sight and secondly I would increase its level to 2nd or 3rd level depending on just how restrictive the "on fire" clause is and how easy it is to circumvent.  One way to slightly bump up the reqs for the prestige class and add some flavor would be to require that the character be able to cast this and put it at 2nd level.

Having "mass teleport" and an ability that allows you to take extra passengers seems redundant.  I would ditch "mass teleport" and simply increase the max number of passengers more regularly.  Gives more granularity to the class and makes it ability instead of two.


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## StGabe (Mar 1, 2007)

Also you need to clarify/define the DC on the will save versus an abduct attempt.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 2, 2007)

Thanks for the feedback.

From the WotBS campaign guide:



> For every hundred feet (or fraction thereof) you teleport at a time, you take 1d6 points of fire damage, to a maximum of 40d6. Average damage is 140, just slightly more than _protection from energy_ can help against, making long-distance teleportation difficult and dangerous.




One factor to bear in mind is that, from a campaign design standpoint, the PCs will only really have contact with the Wayfarers starting at level 5, and so I actually do want anyone who is interested in joining the class to be able to do so easily. Adventure 3 - _Shelter from the Storm_ - in which the PCs first interact with the wayfarers, starts at level 5 and bumps to level 6. I suppose I might switch it so that PCs who come in at 5th will likely have to use their 6th level to meet any niggling requirements, and then they can take the class at the end of the adventure, as they reach 7th.

Dimension door as a 1st level ability is no better than the Eberron Lesser Dragonmark of Passage, and Teleport itself isn't a broken spell. It doesn't make you stronger. It just changes the paradigm of the game a bit. Perhaps if I changed it so you had to spend one whole minute to teleport this way, it would cut down on the abuse of 'teleportation getaway.' 

My goal is to put the PCs in a position to get around and talk to their allies quickly, giving the players much more freedom regarding how they deal with the challenges of the war. If anything, I see teleport being abused the least, especially because of the oath restriction.

I understand that wayfarer's step is something not available in the core rules, but I don't see why you think it is 'crazy broken' at 1st level. At low levels, it takes you basically a full round action to teleport a distance of 15 to 30 ft. It's seldom more useful than just moving.

Abduct's DC would be whatever the save DC for your spell would be, so 15 + Int/Cha for teleport.


If anything, I thought this class might be underpowered. If you compare, say, a rogue 5/wayfarer 2 to a rogue 7, the rogue 7 is dealing more damage and hitting more often. The wayfarer gets a few spells that mostly just help the party, plus some mobility boosts he can use in combat.

Of course, if other people have the same opinion, I'll change it, but as is I don't think it's broken. I do agree, though, that mass teleport and the extra passengers don't work together well. I need to find something else. I would like a nice fun capstone ability for the class.


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## Sigurd (Mar 2, 2007)

I think you need to strengthen the Cirque to make it a believable prestige class. Perhaps you should combine a relatively low entrance req with the downside of an increased chance to be traced. Perhaps something as simple as saying that the traditions of the Cirque are well known to all within the organization.

Give them a 7th or 8th level ability to track\be aware of teleportation. The adept Cirque Teleporter is able to sense the signature of his cohorts. It is a risky thing for a teleporter to work outside of the Cirque because they might be tracked down by these adepts.

You might also give them a metamagic rod that increases their accuracy but keeps track of their activities. The rod might be a symbol of their profession, a guarantee of their competence, and a way for the Cirque to control them.

my .02

What would you think of splitting the prestige class so it was either more efficient - could carry more further - or secret police like - abduct, combat, etc....

Secret police abilities might preclude some of the further bonuses or require a higher entrance req and greater trust. Just planning the secret police option would be a heads up to DM's in the campaign as to what the Cirque was capable of

Sigurd


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## RangerWickett (Mar 2, 2007)

Here's a revision. What do you think?


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## Primitive Screwhead (Mar 2, 2007)

RW, do you by any chance have Eberron and the DragonMarked supplement?

My first thought was to use the Eberron mechanics of Mark of Passage...
 - Least mark = Dimension leap 1/day with a range of 10' per character level
 - Lesser mark = Dim Door 1/day
 - Greater mark = Teleport 1/day

In the DragonMarked supplement is a PrC, the Blade of Orion, that is very close to what you posted. Its not OGL, so I cant' put it here, but the key abilities are more uses of the mark's effects, bringing others with you {forcibly is need be}, gain the 'blink' ability, and capstone of dimension leap being treated as a 5' step {even if you move more than 5'...}

Your 'Extra Passenger' ability has twice allows for twice as many as the Blade's equivilent ability.

I think the PrC's are near equivilent, with your leaning towards more mass movement and the Blade leaning towards individual combat ability. The Blade is a fighter class {full BAB} while your Wayfarer is a partial caster...


Both could have a home in the Wayfarer Organization.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 2, 2007)

Oh, I know House Orien very well. I love teleportation. I'm wondering if perhaps I should cut down on the 'mass teleport' stuff, but I want to make sure the character can teleport his whole party. I never liked that teleport would often divide the party for a day while the wizard went back to get the other half of the group.


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## StGabe (Mar 2, 2007)

> Dimension door as a 1st level ability is no better than the Eberron Lesser Dragonmark of Passage, and Teleport itself isn't a broken spell.




I don't get the reference (don't use Eberron either) however I simply disagree that dimension door isn't placed at 4th level for a reason.  You are proposing Dimension Door Lite which is going to do most of the things you want Dimension Door to do.  In some respects it is even better because you can cast this spell on someone else and let them Dimension Door away without you having to be there and because it is a Swift Action to be activated and could be cast before combat.

Example of a situation where it is superior to Dimension Door: cast on Rogue; have rogue sneak attack enemy or go into some very dangerous situation and do something; have rogue swift action dimension door back to safety on the same round.  You can't do that with Dimension Door, a 4th level spell, and you can do that with this.

Thinking on it more I would argue that it is the same level as Dimension Door and certainly no lower than 3rd level.

You seem to be concentrating on the effect it would have if cast in combat.  However it's much more useful out of combat or before combat.  It lets you walk right out of prison.  It lets you instantaneousl climb a cliff.  As expressed it lets you walk right into a bank vault.  First level players using abilities like that will completely break many intended challenges.   And cast before combat it can be used to huge effect for only a 1st level slot.  I'm not so much worried about the first level caster casting it in combat (although out of combat it's still pretty broken for a 1st level caster) as I am about the 10th level casting it (with a 60ft teleport range) and it only costs him a 1st level slot.

...

Your DC for Abduct still isn't completely clear.  Is there an ability modifier on the DC (i.e. a Wizard applies int bonus to his DC's)?  If so, which ability score does it use?


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## StGabe (Mar 2, 2007)

Oh, I see you moved the spell to a move action.  That makes it a candidate for a 3rd level spell IMO.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 3, 2007)

StGabe said:
			
		

> I don't get the reference (don't use Eberron either) however I simply disagree that dimension door isn't placed at 4th level for a reason.  You are proposing Dimension Door Lite which is going to do most of the things you want Dimension Door to do.  In some respects it is even better because you can cast this spell on someone else and let them Dimension Door away without you having to be there and because it is a Swift Action to be activated and could be cast before combat.




Dimension door lets you take others with you, and travel a great distance. You cast it as a standard action and your turn ends.

Wayfarers step lets any one person travel the distance of one or two move actions. You cast it as a standard action, and spend a move action to use it. If you're 10th level (6th level character plus 4 levels of Wayfarer) you can cast it on yourself as a swift action and teleport as a free action. If you cast it on anyone else it still takes a standard action to cast.

[Actually I think I'll change the wayfarer ability so that if you cast it on yourself, you can cast as a swift action and teleport as part of the same action. If you don't want to teleport that round, you have to use a swift action later.]

Your proposed brokenness, where your rogue buddy moves up, sneak attacks, and retreats in one round is not viable. However, a wayfarer could give his buddies a bit more mobility, a type of teamwork I encourage. And yeah, a rogue/wayfarer could move up, sneak attack, and retreat as a swift action. But that's his schtick, and it's only available at 10th level.



> You seem to be concentrating on the effect it would have if cast in combat.  However it's much more useful out of combat or before combat.  It lets you walk right out of prison.  It lets you instantaneousl climb a cliff.  As expressed it lets you walk right into a bank vault.  First level players using abilities like that will completely break many intended challenges.   And cast before combat it can be used to huge effect for only a 1st level slot.  I'm not so much worried about the first level caster casting it in combat (although out of combat it's still pretty broken for a 1st level caster) as I am about the 10th level casting it (with a 60ft teleport range) and it only costs him a 1st level slot.




Sorry. I did not explicitly state it, but I assumed a short-range teleport would be limited to line of sight. And the spell lets one person bypass these challenges. I could at most see it as a 2nd level spell, on par with spiderclimb, but certainly no higher.



> Your DC for Abduct still isn't completely clear.  Is there an ability modifier on the DC (i.e. a Wizard applies int bonus to his DC's)?  If so, which ability score does it use?




A wayfarer sorcerer with Cha 16 uses dimension door, and wants to bring along an enemy who is adjacent to him. Dimension door is a 4th level spell, and he has a +3 Charisma modifier, so the save DC is 17. Likewise, a wayfarer wizard with Int 16 would have the same save DC.


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## StGabe (Mar 3, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Dimension door lets you take others with you, and travel a great distance. You cast it as a standard action and your turn ends.
> 
> Wayfarers step lets any one person travel the distance of one or two move actions. You cast it as a standard action, and spend a move action to use it. If you're 10th level (6th level character plus 4 levels of Wayfarer) you can cast it on yourself as a swift action and teleport as a free action. If you cast it on anyone else it still takes a standard action to cast.




However, as you have it defined it can be cast out of combat up to 10 rounds before it is used (1 minute duration).  Now that you have made it a move action to activate it's true that you can't sneak attack and use it in the same round however you still teleport out right away next round.



> Sorry. I did not explicitly state it, but I assumed a short-range teleport would be limited to line of sight. And the spell lets one person bypass these challenges. I could at most see it as a 2nd level spell, on par with spiderclimb, but certainly no higher.




Yes.  I suggested you add this in my initial criticism and it is important to have this explicitly stated.  



> A wayfarer sorcerer with Cha 16 uses dimension door, and wants to bring along an enemy who is adjacent to him. Dimension door is a 4th level spell, and he has a +3 Charisma modifier, so the save DC is 17. Likewise, a wayfarer wizard with Int 16 would have the same save DC.




Right, I imagined you meant that (although it's a non-standard way to define this, generally a prestige class would have its own attribute for this) however you need to make this clear "The DC is equivalent to what it would be if the caster cast it with as an arcane caster of any arcane class that he has levels in" for example.



> I could at most see it as a 2nd level spell, on par with spiderclimb, but certainly no higher.




Spiderclimb won't let you teleport through windows, out of jail cells, etc.  Dimension Door has some slight advantages (you can take a few people with you, but not a lot, and you can go further) but as you've defined this it is also superior in other ways (usable as a move action if cast before combat, caster doesn't have to teleport or even be near the person who does the teleport).  However, generally, the things that make Dimension Door a 4th level spell are its abilities to break/trivialize a lot of challenges like being locked in a prison cell.  Dimension Door isn't an amazing combat spell and you could compare it to Spiderclimb too if you just want to think about combat.  This is, IMO, definitely at least a 3rd level spell.

I'm not sure why you are so dead set on it being lower anyway.  The wayfarer can take this as one of his Expanded Spells if they aren't a caster.

...

I also think that the class probably needs a lower BAB progression and or hit die.  Balancewise, it's giving some pretty impressive spell casting boosts that seem to more than replace the lost rogue abilities that, for example, a rogue would give up to become a wayfarer.  Consider a 4rogue/1sorceror/10wayfarer versus a 15 rogue and I think you will find that the former is considerably more powerful.

You can just diagreee, that's fine, but I think it would be useful to step back a bit from the class.  You seem to be trying a bit too hard to make the class really attractive to players.  For example, you seem to be predicating the class around being easy to aquire at a certain point in the module.  That's nice and all but I think you need to make sure that it is balanced with other prestige classes with respect to requirements and abilities first and consider that later.  If players need a heads up about the prestige class in order to plan for it then maybe you just need to inform them of the prereqs sooner.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Mar 3, 2007)

I know this is a bit off-track, but I was thinking about my game and how to incorperate the Eberron elements into the adventures.. and it hit me like lightning out of blue sky...


Sorry if this is a bit disjointed, and slanted towards Eberron...


WayFarer's Step, Graft
 - The infusion of specially prepared DragonShards grants the graftee the ability to step through planar boundries as a move action. Upon arrival the graftee must succeed at a FORT check vs 15 or become fatigued.

- The basic infusion is a Syberus shard and a Kyber shard. The addition of an Eberron Shard limits the ability to travel on the Prime Material. The graftee may shift his position on Eberron by 10' per character level. Without the Eberron Shard the graftee must succeed at a Concentration Check DC 25 to arrive at the right plane and location.

- Additional beings can be brought along at a cost of a +5 increase of both the Fort save DC and the Concentration DC, per additional character.

- Fatigue increases the Concentration check DC by +5

- Failure of the concentration check results in arriving at a random location on a random plane. If the characters are PCs, this should be a nice opportunity for a side plot, arriving right smack into the middle of a story ala Dr Who.

- The initial graft procedure causes 1D4 CON permanent drain. This loss cannot be recovered via Restoration while the graft is still installed.

Wayfarer's revenge... when a character with this graft breaks with the Wayfarer's guild a contingency effect destroys the Eberron Shard while the character is taking a 'step'. This results in the characters arrival at a random plane...usually meaning the wayward wayfarer does not return.



With this as the entry requirement to the PrC, the class can focus on reducing the penalties for stepping and increase functionality. It allows for non-casters to be members and provides a very clean package for why no-one outside of the Guild knows the secrets of the Wayfarer's step.

Additional abilities could include:
Expanding the range of travel, for instance increasing movement allowance to 10' * twice character level
Decreasing penalty for moving additional characters
etc...

Let me know if my random thought is worth keeping and working on 
Non-Eberron games could use alternate graft components with the same results.


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## maggot (Mar 3, 2007)

I'm not a big fan of first-level teleportation either.  It is just a solution to too many problems.  Locked door: teleport.  Entangle: teleport.  Web: teleport.  Resilient Sphere: teleport.  Force Cube: teleport.  Grapple: teleport.

True, Wayfarer's step is a standard action and then a move, but that hardly limits its power.  The fact that you take damage teleporting might help.  But for a standard campaign, I wouldn't go for it.

As for the class, I find it misses something to make it compelling.  You coud just take levels in a spell-using class and do better.  A simple feat that allows you to take more people with you on a teleport would do half of what this class does.  Also, where is the "part circus" in the class.  All the abilities deal with teleporation magic.


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## Owldragon (Mar 4, 2007)

maggot said:
			
		

> I'm not a big fan of first-level teleportation either.  It is just a solution to too many problems.  Locked door: teleport.  Entangle: teleport.  Web: teleport.  Resilient Sphere: teleport.  Force Cube: teleport.  Grapple: teleport.




It's ironic that the most debate so far is on something that isn't even part of the prestige class, just a spell that the class uses.  My only thought at first was that maybe a cap should be put on the range so it doesn't let you go _too_ much further than you could move normally.  Your argument is making me start to wonder about the impact of low-level teleportation, though.  It didn't occur to me until now that it could get you out of things like entanglement or grapples, since the spell casting is done first and then you just use a move action to actually teleport.  On the other hand, you'd have to cast the spell first to be ready to escape such a condition.  I'm not decided yet.  I mean, if there was no advantage to the spell, why learn it or memorize it in the first place?  And, as has been pointed out, there is a Least Dragonmark that does something similar, and I would imagine that if it was horribly broken, somebody would have found a way to exploit it already.

StGabe is right that the limitation to line-of-sight should be explicit; that would get rid of some of the problems, like getting past a lot of locked doors (a first level spell that's as good as knock as well as having other uses would _definitely_ be overpowered).  *RangerWickett*, do you think limiting it to line-of-effect as well would be too much?  Having it blocked by things like a resilient sphere would counter other concerns, but I don't know what you actually have in mind for the spell.  What do you really want people to be accomplishing with the spell?

Also, StGabe, I think the reason RangerWickett would like to keep the spell the way it is as much as possible might have something to do with the fact that it's already been published that way in the Burning Sky Player's Guide, back in January (same wording, down to requiring a standard action to cast and a move action to teleport). "Errata" is such a nasty word.  



			
				maggot said:
			
		

> As for the class, I find it misses something to make it compelling.  You coud just take levels in a spell-using class and do better.  A simple feat that allows you to take more people with you on a teleport would do half of what this class does.  Also, where is the "part circus" in the class.  All the abilities deal with teleporation magic.




I do agree with this.  The class could use some more flavor, something to show the "part circus" part of the concept.  Maybe some sort of magical augments to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skill checks?  As it is, the abilities the class grants seem to fit more with the WotC version of Wayfarers than with the Wayfarers you've portrayed in the background information and Lyceian Arcana.


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## Gabester (Mar 4, 2007)

I am compiling a list of spells available to different priests for a variant priest class I have made for my campaign and as such I've been pouring over the Player's Handbook and Spell Compendium looking for spells with the right flavor that are well ballanced.  A couple spells to compare this 1st level spell to:

Invisibility (swift): similar behavior (activate single-round invisibility), however it has overall less utility especially out of combat and it's a 2nd level spell
Amorphous Form: let's you get through cracks, windows, etc., but while it grants some combat bonuses is largely a bad thing to cast for combat (prevents spellcasting, loses your armor bonus, etc.).  This is a 3rd level spell.

Standard spells to compare it too:
Spiderclimb: better duration but far more limited in what it will let you bypass.  2nd level.
Fly: Ok but not amazing for combat (guess that depends on the combat) but lets you get a lot of places you couldn't otherwise.  3rd level.
Gaseous Form: Similar. 3rd level.
Dimension Door: as stated, only a slight improvement over the given spell for most situations and 4th level.

I see nothing even close as a 1st level spell.  Expeditious retreat?  Yeah, right.  There's just no way this is 1st level.  Even if there is some ability in some sourcebook otherwise that is also broken.  That a mistake was made the first time it was published is also not a good reason to continue with it.  I could see an argument that it seems to be better than most similar 2nd level spells because of it's extremely broad utility but yet at the same time not quite as good as say Gaseous Form.  That would put it at 2 1/2 basically.  I don't know what you want to do from there.  I would either buff it a bit to make it clearly a 3rd level spell or consider some other slight restrictions on it.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 4, 2007)

Okay, did some checking:

In Complete Psionic, a 1st level power lets you teleport 10 ft. as a swift action.

In PHB2, a 2nd level spell lets you teleport 5 ft./2 levels.

I originally thought the "standard to cast, move to teleport" was a drawback. People seem to disagree. The question is whether the psionic power is broken, or the PHB2 spell is weak. Sure, it's something not available in core, but would it really disrupt a game or unbalance it?

I obviously want to keep it 1st level. I would rather make a weaker version that is 1st level than take the current version and bump it to 2nd.


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## maggot (Mar 5, 2007)

Comparing psionic powers and spells isn't an exact science.  Also the power you mention (Dimension Hop) is only available to the Freedom Mantle, requiring a feat for most character to access it (or taking a class that provides a Mantle and selecting that specific mantle).


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## StGabe (Mar 5, 2007)

IMO, always best to compare to core spells when possible.  They are the best playtested and balanced.  Comparing against psionics is, as mentioned, problematic.  IMO, it's clear from the  core spells that the power level is far higher than you are positing.  Your ability is more versatile and has more than twice the range of the 2nd level spell from the PHB-2.  That further asserts its current status at 2.5 (although actually I don't think I'd had that PHB-2 spell to my campaign for the same reasons I wouldn't want this spell to be level 1).


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## RangerWickett (Mar 5, 2007)

What I really want is a valid 1st level teleportation spell. Any suggestions?


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## StGabe (Mar 5, 2007)

I think it would have to something like instantaneous flight.  I.e. it will carry you anywhere in range, instantly, but won't take you through any intervening objects whatsoever.  You can't go through jail cell bars or a window but you can go up a cliff or across a chasm.  You probably can't break a grapple with it but you can make a single attack and then teleport atop a nearby wall for example.

That's probably manageable for a 1st level character to have.  It is basically a powerful, but single-use, version of Jump.  Flavorwise it seems to make sense.  The idea would be that this is a very crude version of teleportation that has limitations with respect to how many laws of physics it can break.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Mar 5, 2007)

I did an ability kinda like that over in HRs for an EoM Shadow Mage I had..: Shadow Slip 

The ability lets you move about the battlefield in a limited fashion... I did not expand it to full blown teleports tho.


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## Nifft (Mar 6, 2007)

Teleportation *lights you on fire*? Your first level benefits are:
1/ Fire Resistance 5
2/ _Detect Teleportation_ (constant)
3/ Teleport 10 ft. as a swift action (costs one 'port point, or PP, because I *heart* Psionics)

You gain more Fire Resistance as you level up. 5 points is enough to make 10 ft. jumps mostly safe, right? That's only 1d6 damage?

Cheers, -- N


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## RangerWickett (Mar 6, 2007)

Thing is, the fiery teleportation bit is a new development. This group has not learned to cope with it yet.

I like St Gabe's idea for the limited TP. PrimScrew's idea is a bit too complicated for what I want.

Detect teleportation is a psionic power? Good, I can use it then, since it's in the SRD. I don't like reinventing the wheel /too/ much.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll post the revision soon.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Mar 7, 2007)

But complex is sooo much fun


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## RangerWickett (Mar 8, 2007)

Third attempt. A little less spellcasting, a little more fun abilities.


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## Owldragon (Mar 9, 2007)

I like the new abilities.  This version definitely has more flavor to it; I like it.

I also like the new version of the spell.  My only nitpick is you changed the casting time but forgot to change the duration.  Otherwise, it looks good to me.

You see, this is why my wallet hates you.  You keep coming up with stuff like this, and I have no choice but to do things like buy a full subscription to the Burning Sky saga.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 9, 2007)

Thanks for catching the error.

And for having a weak will. If it makes you feel any better, you're helping the cause of love. I need to save up enough money for airfare to Brazil.


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## Mr. Beef (Mar 10, 2007)

It looks good to me, but I'm not big on designing Prestige Classes. I have a tendency to make ones that have already been made or make them too weak or too powerful.

Is there a reason that it's only eight levels instead of the standard five or ten levels? That's the first thing I picked up on. 

I have yet to get the _War of the Buring Sky_ but this element of it sounds neat.

Keep it coming.

Mr. Beef


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## maggot (Mar 10, 2007)

I kinda like it, but I wish you could lose less spellcasting levels.  Losing 5 spells-known levels is awfully harsh.  You are 2-3 spell levels behind, but gain the ability to one 4th level spell many times per day.  Would this class be broken if you lost only 2 spells-known levels, and thus were only 1 spell level behind?


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