# Move Force questions.



## Kemrain (May 18, 2005)

Rangerwickett, I'm a bit confused by Move Force.

If I cast Move Force 2/Gen 2, I can make bullrush, disarm, grapple, overrun or trip attempts, out to a 30 ft. range, with an effective strength of 25, for 10 minutes.  I can make as many attacks in this manner in a round as I could normally, in my case, twice. My bonuses for these attacks are confusing me, though.

Base Attack Bonus of 7 plus the 7 effective strength bonus adds up to a grapple check bonus of 14. I have Improved Grapple, but I don't know if I can add that. 

I purchase Range, not Area of Effect, to reach my targets, right? I can grapple 2 seperate targets at once without penalty, right?

I'll assume that I don't provoke attacks of opportunity while performing these maneuvers, even if the target is adjacent. I'll also assume that I can performe these maneuvers myself, using the Move Force's effective strength in place of my own, as to not draw undo attention.

I'm taking the spell description to mean that I can tack a Move Force onto a Move Space, to be able to teleport the target where I want them to go. Do I need to do this to teleport someone else? do they get to choose the destination if I don't do this? I'm not sure why you included these lines if this isn't the case.  Also, I'm not sure, but it seems as though I can only move objects with Move Force, and to move creatures I need to cast Move Force/ Move Air.

If I cast Move Force to grapple, can I still use the same casting of that spell to lift an inanimate object, or can I only perform combat maneuvers, forcing me to cast a different version of the spell for object movement?

Could you provide some more examples of things you can use Move Force on that would require an Intelligence check? Could you, for instance, pick a lock telekinetically?

Thanks for helping me out, RW.

If I've grappled an opponent with Move Force, and I have a bow in my hands, can I then shoot him while he's denied his dexterity bonus? Since I'm grappeling him, is he denied his dexterity bonus to me? Seems a great way to sneak attack like mad.

Can I pick up a foe and move him through my buddy's threatened area to generate attacks of opportunity? Is there any way to move farther than 30 feet a round? Move Fire should do it.

- Kemrain the Telekinetic.


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## RangerWickett (May 18, 2005)

http://www.colorado.edu/Publications/styleguide/symbols.html



			
				Kemrain said:
			
		

> Rangerwickett, I'm a bit confused by Move Force.




Sorry about that.  Looking back, I think perhaps Move Force is slightly overpowered.  Compared to core telekinesis it's certainly stronger.

I honestly don't know why I made it so cheap.  It really ought to be more like:

*MP . STR : Weight (Size)*
0 . . . . . 1 . . . . . .  5 lb. (Tiny)
1 . . . . . 4 . . . . . . 30 lb. (Tiny)
2 . . . . . 8 . . . . . . 75 lb. (Small)
3 . . . . 16 . . . . . 125 lb. (Small)
4 . . . . 20 . . . . . 250 lb. (Medium)
6 . . . . 25 . . . . . 500 lb. (Medium)
8 . . . . 30 . . . . . 1000 lb. (Large)
10 . . . 35 . . . . . 4000 lb. (Large) 
12 . . . 40 . . . . . 16000 lb. (Huge)
14 . . . 45 . . . . . 64000 lb. (Huge)
16 . . . 50 . . . . . 256000 lb. (Gargantuan)
18 . . . 55 . . . . . 1,012,000 lb. (Gargantuan)
20 . . . 60 . . . . . 4,048,000 lb. (Colossal)

However, I'll answer the questions as per the rules as written (which are whacked; I mean, honestly, lifting 200 tons at 6th level?).



> If I cast Move Force 2/Gen 2, I can make bullrush, disarm, grapple, overrun or trip attempts, out to a 30 ft. range, with an effective strength of 25, for 10 minutes.  I can make as many attacks in this manner in a round as I could normally, in my case, twice. My bonuses for these attacks are confusing me, though.
> 
> Base Attack Bonus of 7 plus the 7 effective strength bonus adds up to a grapple check bonus of 14. I have Improved Grapple, but I don't know if I can add that.




If your BAB is +7, then yes, you'd have a +14 grapple check, and Improved Grapple should apply.



> I purchase Range, not Area of Effect, to reach my targets, right? I can grapple 2 seperate targets at once without penalty, right?




You do use range to reach targets, but if you don't spend any enhancements on area of effect, the area is only one 5-ft. square, so you can only grapple creatures in that square. Also, the spell only moves at 30 ft. per round if you want to move it. So if you grapple a person 30 ft. away on your left, then want to grapple a person 30 ft. away on your right, you'd have to spend two rounds moving the spell.

If you had a large area of effect, you could divide your attacks between creatures.



> I'll assume that I don't provoke attacks of opportunity while performing these maneuvers, even if the target is adjacent. I'll also assume that I can performe these maneuvers myself, using the Move Force's effective strength in place of my own, as to not draw undo attention.




Concentrating on a spell provokes attacks of opportunity, but no, the spell itself does not provoke an AoO. By the rules as written, you cannot move your body to fake a grapple while the spell does the grappling for you, because you can't move while concentrating. But I'm a lenient DM, so I'd let you do it with a bluff check.



> I'm taking the spell description to mean that I can tack a Move Force onto a Move Space, to be able to teleport the target where I want them to go. Do I need to do this to teleport someone else? do they get to choose the destination if I don't do this? I'm not sure why you included these lines if this isn't the case.  Also, I'm not sure, but it seems as though I can only move objects with Move Force, and to move creatures I need to cast Move Force/ Move Air.




Normally, move spells grant the target a new movement mode. The creature is in control of its own movement. If you cast Move Space on an enemy, all you've done is given him the option of teleporting, and when he does, he can teleport wherever he wants that's within range.

Move Force lets you control a creature's movement, so to fling someone into the air, you need Move Force and Move Air. To teleport a human into a rock, you'd need at least Move Force 2 (to get a medium creature) and Move Space 1 (to teleport him straight down into rock). The spell would try to resist this, so the person would take 1d10 damage, and you'd keep making Intelligence checks until you roll a 16 or higher, and each time the victim would take 1d10 damage. You can't choose to fail these Int. checks.

You can move creatures with Move Force, but remember that without Move Air, you can just push or pull them around on the ground. The text just got a little muddled because there are so many options available. 



> If I cast Move Force to grapple, can I still use the same casting of that spell to lift an inanimate object, or can I only perform combat maneuvers, forcing me to cast a different version of the spell for object movement?




You can use the spell different ways; just concentrate to change what it's doing.



> Could you provide some more examples of things you can use Move Force on that would require an Intelligence check? Could you, for instance, pick a lock telekinetically?




Yes you could. The Int check is a remnant from the core rules; I'd recommend just making it a normal Dex check or skill check, with a -1 penalty for every 10 ft.  So you can pick locks telekinetically if you can pick locks in real life.



> Thanks for helping me out, RW.
> 
> If I've grappled an opponent with Move Force, and I have a bow in my hands, can I then shoot him while he's denied his dexterity bonus? Since I'm grappeling him, is he denied his dexterity bonus to me? Seems a great way to sneak attack like mad.




If you cease concentration on the spell so you can make another attack, it no longer is grappling, so the target would not be denied his Dex. You could probably create a version of the spell that works on it's own . . . as a rough guess I'd say the enhancement should cost about 10 MP, and it lets you control it as a swift action, making one move or attack a round.



> Can I pick up a foe and move him through my buddy's threatened area to generate attacks of opportunity? Is there any way to move farther than 30 feet a round? Move Fire should do it.
> 
> - Kemrain the Telekinetic.




Yes to both.


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## astriemer (May 18, 2005)

While we're on the topic of Move Force, what would the enhancement cost be to allow something being moved with move force to be used in a normal attack? To create a dancing sword for example or Spiritual Weapon effect.


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## RangerWickett (May 18, 2005)

It's more cost effective to use Summon Construct to create a flying animated object, since what you basically want is a creature. If you don't have Summon, you could wing it with Evoke (and a damage per round effect), or, worst case, Compel Construct 1/Move Air 3/Transform Life 2/Gen 0 to transform a weapon into a creature, give it flight, and make it defend you.


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## astriemer (May 19, 2005)

What a clever way to create that effect! I wasn't thinking outside the box.


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## Kemrain (May 19, 2005)

A very thorough answer. Thanks for getting back to me that quickly. I like your answers, and the new table makes a lot of sense.  One more queston about it, though: I can't tell whether I need to pay (on your new chart) 4MP merely to move a medium creaure, or to affect one with the spell at all? Can I grapple a human with Move Force 3, or must I use Move Force 4?



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> http://www.colorado.edu/Publications/styleguide/symbols.html



By the way, are you correcting my grammar?

- Kemrain the Pleased.


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## RangerWickett (May 19, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> A very thorough answer. Thanks for getting back to me that quickly. I like your answers, and the new table makes a lot of sense.  One more queston about it, though: I can't tell whether I need to pay (on your new chart) 4MP merely to move a medium creaure, or to affect one with the spell at all? Can I grapple a human with Move Force 3, or must I use Move Force 4?
> 
> By the way, are you correcting my grammar?
> 
> - Kemrain the Pleased.




You can grapple, bull rush, etc. with any level spell, but to move objects you need to meet the minimum size/weight requirements.  Actually, what do you think about having Move Force not allow a save, but instead requiring an opposed Strength check when you want to move a creature around?

And no, wasn't fixing your grammar. I was just working on something else, and I copy-pasted the link into the file I was typing my reply in.


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## Kemrain (May 19, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> You can grapple, bull rush, etc. with any level spell, but to move objects you need to meet the minimum size/weight requirements.  Actually, what do you think about having Move Force not allow a save, but instead requiring an opposed Strength check when you want to move a creature around?



Interesting idea. Really puts the small and weak at a disadvantage. I'd suggest looking at the Move rules from the Grapple section on page 156.



			
				PHB Page 156. said:
			
		

> You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.
> Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.)




Making it a grapple check at least gives your target a chance to resist, if small, and you get a huge strength mod when you cast the high MP spells required to move larger critters, so I think it may be fair, even given size bonuses/penalties.



			
				You said:
			
		

> And no, wasn't fixing your grammar. I was just working on something else, and I copy-pasted the link into the file I was typing my reply in.



Ah. Ok. I thought it might have been because in my initial post, I capitolized Ranger, but not Wickett.

- Kemrain the Grappled.


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## Primitive Screwhead (May 19, 2005)

*Moving with Force*

I like the idea of using the Grapple rules instead of a save, and presuming that the 'size' of the spell would be used instead of the size of the character.. so you could have a Pixie cast a 'Large' Move: Force 8 spell..

  It would be a good way to emulate the Bixby series of spells. It would also allow a DM to deal with something like trying to rip a sapling from the ground by giving it a STR score.


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## Thomas5251212 (May 20, 2005)

I think probably not getting a save may be a bad idea; Grapple is sometimes already a bit overpowered, but its limited by three issues; you have to be within reach, you typically evoke an AoO doing so, and you put yourself in a grapple to do it.  Doing so at range makes all these go away.  This would get particularly ugly if using EoM with D&D classes, as it can neutralize a big part of the spell repetoire of those using the normal spell system, given its effect on spells with gestures.


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## Kemrain (May 20, 2005)

Some more questions I had, after reading through all the replies.

Can I cast the spell on myself, to replace my effective Strength score when performing these combat maneuvers or picking things up without having to move them telekinetically?

Can I give myself a +5 from strength (replacing my normal +1) when grappling if I cast Move Force 4/Gen 0 on myself? Do I need to concentrate, and thus can't do anythign with it?

- Kemrain the Curious.


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## RangerWickett (May 20, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Some more questions I had, after reading through all the replies.
> 
> Can I cast the spell on myself, to replace my effective Strength score when performing these combat maneuvers or picking things up without having to move them telekinetically?
> 
> ...




You have it right on the second question: you _could_ do that, and basically give the spell a range of touch, but you have to concentrate, which makes grappling impossible, unless you're hasted. And also being in a grapple makes it very hard to concentrate on a spell.


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## Kemrain (May 20, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> You have it right on the second question: you _could_ do that, and basically give the spell a range of touch, but you have to concentrate, which makes grappling impossible, unless you're hasted. And also being in a grapple makes it very hard to concentrate on a spell.



 How come I need to concentrate? I don't have to for the other Move Lists, do I? I dont' want to give my Move Force spell a range of touch, as much as a range of personal. It can't work that way?

- Kemrain the Confused.


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## astriemer (May 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> How come I need to concentrate? I don't have to for the other Move Lists, do I? I dont' want to give my Move Force spell a range of touch, as much as a range of personal. It can't work that way?
> 
> - Kemrain the Confused.




Way back in one of the spell creation discussions, RW indicated that Move Force normally requires concentration (perhaps assumed from the similar requirement for the core TK spells), but he indicated that you could give the Move Force a "simple" automated command and let it go without concentration. The example was a shield that could move to defend the user to create a Shield spell effect.


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