# Half-orc dad, half-elf mom --> 'human' child?



## Driddle (Jan 22, 2005)

The player proposes that his half-orc PC and half-elf NPC love interest could actually have a fully human offspring, using the logic that each half human part of the parents' genetic makeup might actually get matched correctly with the other -- a 25 percent chance, he says.

Your perspective, please.


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## kirinke (Jan 22, 2005)

Wouldn't work.
Real-world example:
My mom is half german and half irish
My dad is half german and half danish
So I am half german, quarter irish and quarter danish.

For your half orc/half elf couple a child produced would be:
Half human, quarter orc and quarter elf.


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## painandgreed (Jan 22, 2005)

IMC, there are no female orcs. The child of any orc or half-orc with a non-orc race produces a half-orc. A child of an orc with a half orc or two half-orcs produces a full blooded orc. So the product of the above woulld produce a half-orc as the orc heritage takes over. This is one of the reasons that orcs and half-orcs are so dispised and distrusted even by other humanoid races as they are an intrusive race that must prey upon others to survive (so demands Gruumsch!).

This is closely related to the spiritual side of my world as there is only one orc god, Gruumsch, and he is male. As below as above, so since there is no female orc god, there can be no female orcs. It's said that Gruumsch has spawned female orcs before, but that he kills them as soon as they are born. This keeps his race strong by not only encouraging them to prey upon other races but also causes other races to fear his offspring, which is what he wants.


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## Gynsala (Jan 22, 2005)

*So many ideas...*

This is entirely the DM's call... so many ways to play this....

For all gaming purposes, it could be ruled that the char is entirely human.  For roleplay, either non distinguishable from other humans, or easily distinguishable (this would only enhance roleplay, and would be kinda a gip, as they would take racism penalties on something they don't benifit from directly in-game).

They could be given all the abilities of both (the completely half orc, half elf pairing, no human characteristics), which would be somewhat disturbing to see I think.  Probably would have to be given a -1 lev adjustment or some other sort of negative (perhaps everyone in this world is so wildly repulsed by the character that all Roleplay suffers... but that would kind of suck).

My favorite idea so far is to take all the stats from Human, half-orc, and half-elf, put them into one giant list, and roll for random racial bonuses.  You could end up with a +2 strength, -2 con char with immunity to sleep spells and +4 skill points at base level and +1 every additional level... or someone with +2 Dex and -2 Charisma, with darkvision, counts as an orc for all intents and purposes ingame, and an extra feat at the first level...  I'd just make sure that it's random to prevent min-maxing.

[addendum: as some racial bonuses are obviously better than others, you'd have to either separate the bonuses into 'minor' and 'major' categories, or submit it for DM's approval]


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## Sejs (Jan 22, 2005)

> The player proposes that his half-orc PC and half-elf NPC love interest could actually have a fully human offspring,



Human racial stats, but 'genetics' ...eh.  Genetics don't matter for much in D&D.


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## Mordane76 (Jan 22, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> The player proposes that his half-orc PC and half-elf NPC love interest could actually have a fully human offspring, using the logic that each half human part of the parents' genetic makeup might actually get matched correctly with the other -- a 25 percent chance, he says.
> 
> Your perspective, please.






			
				kirinke said:
			
		

> Real-world example:
> My mom is half german and half irish
> My dad is half german and half danish
> So I am half german, quarter irish and quarter danish.




Well, the real-world example isn't a truly correct analogy to the example given.  The real world example is human + human = human.  We're dealing with different species mating, not different heritages in one species.

Your DM is using a property of real-world biology to explain his reasoning, but you have to understand his reasonings.  Without given everyone here a lecture on freshman genetics, he's saying that the elf traits are discrete, the orc traits are discrete, and the human traits are discrete; the half-elf basically has a packet that reads ELF and one that reads HUMAN, while the half-orc has one that reads ORC and one that reads HUMAN.  Thus, these packets can segregate from each other and mix according to Punnett Square ratios.  From the pairing, you could end up with someone who was a Orc/Elf, an Elf/Human (a half-elf), and Orc/Human (a half-orc), or a Human/Human (a normal human).  If he's willing to go this route, then he has to not only accept the possibility that a half-orc and a half-elf mating could create a full-blooded human, but he also has to accept that it could create the Orc/Elf, something for which there are no present rules.

Now, since the interspecies mixing in D&D breaks basic principles of genetics not covered above in the first place, the DM can do whatever he wants, really.  He could say that the Orc/Elf mixture is fatal and does not produce a viable offspring, thus eliminating that problem.  But using a basic extension of Punnett Square ratios and Mendelian genetics, he is correct.


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## Shazman (Jan 22, 2005)

Actually the Kingdoms of Kalamar supplement, "Dangerous Denizens" has stats for unlikely half-races including a half-elf/half-orc mixture.  I can't remember the stats right now, but it's an interesting concept.


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## HellHound (Jan 22, 2005)

Sure, he would be 1/4 elf, 1/4 orc, 1/2 human, but in game terms we'd be dealing with a full-blooded human in most campaigns I've seen. (including mine, when running my few campaigns that allow half-elves)


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## Mordane76 (Jan 22, 2005)

Shazman said:
			
		

> Actually the Kingdoms of Kalamar supplement, "Dangerous Denizens" has stats for unlikely half-races including a half-elf/half-orc mixture.  I can't remember the stats right now, but it's an interesting concept.




Didn't know that - don't have any KoK at this time.


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## Tinner (Jan 22, 2005)

Not arguing genetics, or whatever, but if it would make for an interesting story, I'd allow the child to be fully human, but have the Orc-Blooded, and Elf-Blooded special traits.
Essentially weapons, spells, etc. that work in a certain maner for humans, orcs or elves would all respond to him as if he were of that species.
The real question then is, what Racial Paragon classes can this kid take?  
This child certainly sounds like fulfilled prophecy in any case ...


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## Torm (Jan 23, 2005)

Actually, if genetics mattered, the closest real world analogy is what happens when you have two couples, each with one brown eyed and one blue eyed. In both cases, their kids are probably going to have brown eyes - brown eye genes are dominant over blue. BUT, when their kids get together to have children, each kid would donate one of their two chromosomes to their sex cells, resulting in 3 out of 4 combinations being brown-eyed, but 1 out of 4 being blue-eyed.

Since the Orc and Elf characteristics tend to be dominate in their respective half-offspring, one would imagine that there are four main possibilities for offspring, each with about a 1 in 4 chance of occurring: 1 Half-Elf (received Elf chromosomes from Half-Elf parent, human ones from Half-Orc), 1 Half-Orc (the opposite of the previous), 1 Half-Orc-Half-Elf (received the respective chromosomes from both parents, with no or few human ones involved, and 1 Human (both parents donated human chromosomes.)

Of course, since you're actually dealing with quite a few chromosome pairs, you could still end up with a few minor attributes of the other progenitors cropping up, but for the largest part, it would map as above...


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## Rasyr (Jan 24, 2005)

kirinke said:
			
		

> Wouldn't work.
> Real-world example:
> My mom is half german and half irish
> My dad is half german and half danish
> ...




The above quote pretty much mirrors what I was going to say (Note: in HARP such a combination IS possible, just ask Teflon Billy)


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## takyris (Jan 24, 2005)

If I were going to rule on this, I'd do it quick and dirty and go with the Punnet Square, as other people have mentioned, using the one little trick I remember from biology 31 (in which Tacky was successfully weeded out of pre-med):

If "O" is Orc, "H" is human, and "E" is elf, than:

OH x EH =

25% each of:

OH -- half-orc
HE -- half-elf
HH -- pure human
OE -- Orc/Elf hybrid, which, as the DM, I'd rule meant that the conception failed, with the fertilized egg dying in just a few weeks.

The resulting statistics would never show an Orc/Elf hybrid, and, to someone not familiar with the Punnet Square, it'd look like fewer births than usual, with the births that did occur being one-third half-orc, one-third half-elf, and one-third human.  (25% of each, and 25% null result from failed conception)

But, as others have mentioned, this is taking the basic concept of genetics and applying it far too broadly.  Probably fine for the average game, but even in the D&D universe, elves and orcs are probably more genetically complex than fruit flies...


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## arscott (Jan 24, 2005)

Mordane76 said:
			
		

> But using a basic extension of Punnett Square ratios and Mendelian genetics, he is correct.



Not really.  The basic punnett square conept only applies for characteristics that are determined by one gene from the father and one gene from the mother.  And given the vast differences between orcs, elves, and humans, that's not going to be likely.  The human genome has 23 chromosome pairs, one set inherited from the mother, and one set inherited from the father.  And since our fictional elves and orcs are capable of interbreeding with humans, the same must be true of them.

So this hypothetical half orc PC has 23 pairs of chromosomes, one of each pair being a human chromosome and the other being an orcish chromosome.  Any children he has have a 50-50 chance of inheriting each.  The same applies to the half elf.

So in order to inherit all human DNA, the hypothetical child would have to get all 46 human chromosomes. The chances of that happening is 1 in 2^46 (which is 70,368,744,177,664)

to put that in perspective:  if your couple had over ten thousand times as many children as there are people living on earth, chances are one of them would be fully human.

And this ignores the almost certainty of crossover, a phenomenon whereby portions of information are transferred between two chromosomes in a pair, which makes full human bloodedness even more unlikely.


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## fanboy2000 (Jan 24, 2005)

I love fantasy genetics. I'd allow it because it adds to the flavor of fantasy logic that permeates my D&D worlds.

As others have noted, creating a fertile child from the mating of two diffrent species is impossible in the real world. No accurate comparison exists. The closest I can think of are dog breeds.


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## Arrgh! Mark! (Jan 24, 2005)

I remember the game Arcanum - one of the characters was called Gar - Garfield Thelonius the Third or something. An orc.. of pure human stock.

And he liked tea, and spoke as a proper imperialist would.

Think less of his race - I'd suggest using a human for his stats, though - and more of how he's raised than anything - that'd be defining of his character and statistics.


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## Flyspeck23 (Jan 24, 2005)

Isn't there a campaign setting where humans are the descendands of orc-elf relations?

If not - there should be


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## Goblyns Hoard (Jan 24, 2005)

arscott said:
			
		

> So in order to inherit all human DNA, the hypothetical child would have to get all 46 human chromosomes. The chances of that happening is 1 in 2^46 (which is 70,368,744,177,664)




On the purely genetic level - the very fact that the half elf and half orc are viable means that they are the same species - so it doesn't matter which chromosomes they get they should still live.  So the child should be 50% human alleles, 25% elf alleles and 25% orc alleles.

On game terms I'd argue go with human stats and give him a few minor traits that point to the elven & orc heritage (little tusks, pointy ears, etc.)


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## arscott (Jan 24, 2005)

Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> On the purely genetic level - the very fact that the half elf and half orc are viable means that they are the same species - so it doesn't matter which chromosomes they get they should still live.  So the child should be 50% human alleles, 25% elf alleles and 25% orc alleles.
> 
> On game terms I'd argue go with human stats and give him a few minor traits that point to the elven & orc heritage (little tusks, pointy ears, etc.)



 25-50-25 is about how it should work out.  the 1 in ungodly number is the chance of having 100% human alleles assuming no crossover has taken place.

gamewise though? human stats would probably work out.  but the kid won't _look_ human, with one exception:  The one thing that both half-elves and half-orcs have in common is better night vision than humans.

There's an Initial feat in d20 Modern: Urban Arcana called Shadow Heritage.  Basically, it says that the character in question is mostly human but has some shadowkind (i.e. non-human) ancestry.  It grants low-light vision and a bonus to any one save.  That might be appropriate in this case.


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## Driddle (Jan 24, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> ... there are four main possibilities for offspring, each with about a 1 in 4 chance of occurring: 1 Half-Elf (received Elf chromosomes from Half-Elf parent, human ones from Half-Orc), 1 Half-Orc (the opposite of the previous), 1 Half-Orc-Half-Elf (received the respective chromosomes from both parents, with no or few human ones involved, and 1 Human (both parents donated human chromosomes.)




I guess that's the expert opinion I'll run with, as strange as it seems. So a fully human child is possible from the mix.

Thanks!


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## Desdichado (Jan 24, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> I guess that's the expert opinion I'll run with, as strange as it seems. So a fully human child is possible from the mix.



That's not an expert opinion, nor is it correct, but if that's what you want to do, more power to you.

Personally, I'm with the arscott position above; there are too many characteristics to have it be reduced to a simple Orc/Human/Elf result.  I'd have any offspring be mulish, infertile mongrels myself.


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## Driddle (Jan 24, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> That's not an expert opinion, nor is it correct, but if that's what you want to do, more power to you.




Why the dis? Why you be hatin' on me?


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## Voadam (Jan 24, 2005)

In D&D orcs, elves, and humans are not defined as different species. They are simply different "races" and so further mixing could be allowable or not with normal genetics depending on what DMs want to load into the term for their campaign concept.

A couple options are all human, chance for half-orc or half elf, apply either the half orc or half elf or half human templates from book of templates, or make it just like they are race touched instead of plane touched and give them a few features of the half races. You could even have different mechanics for different siblings of the same parents. I'd say it would depend on if a PC wanted to play this character then I would probably let them choose what mechanics they felt were appropriate to their concept or they thought would be fun to play.


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## Desdichado (Jan 24, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> Why the dis? Why you be hatin' on me?



Huh?  All I'm saying is, if you're going to ask for "expert" opinions, you could actually pay attention to them.  Even Torm says that he's generalizing and simplifying, and that his simplification isn't correct, it's just "close enough."

And like I said, that's fine -- if that's what you want to do in your game.  I don't know why you say I'm dissin' or hatin' on.


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## Driddle (Jan 24, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> All I'm saying is, if you're going to ask for "expert" opinions, you could actually pay attention to them.




There's no need to be insulting, Mister Dyal. I don't point out every time you fail to 'pay attention' on this board (as tempting as that might be). 

But I'm a big guy. So I accept your apology in advance, thank you. All is forgiven.


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## Desdichado (Jan 24, 2005)

I really don't know what your problem is.  You got some expert opinions, then you decided to ignore them.  I already said that's fine if that's what you want to do.


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## Mordane76 (Jan 24, 2005)

arscott said:
			
		

> Not really.  The basic punnett square conept only applies for characteristics that are determined by one gene from the father and one gene from the mother.  And given the vast differences between orcs, elves, and humans, that's not going to be likely.  The human genome has 23 chromosome pairs, one set inherited from the mother, and one set inherited from the father.  And since our fictional elves and orcs are capable of interbreeding with humans, the same must be true of them.




That's why I called it an EXTENSION.  It's not EXACTLY how it works; it's a gross oversimplification of the Punnett concept, rendering everything down to one simple trait, but, on its face, if that's how he wants to do it, then he's correct in his thought processes - his Punnett math is fine.

Personally, from a realistic POV, there shouldn't be any breeding between the species because of interspecies controls aganist cross fertilization, and IMO all the different races and creatures of D&D should be separate species.  By saying they can interbreed, it does render everything, and I mean EVERYTHING since pretty much all creatures in D&D can mate with one another and create viable offspring, into one species with some god-awful level of allelic diversity.  But they allow for magic to mix the genetic kool-aid... and, IMO, in such a setting, rendering everything down into one simple trait works pretty well.  

Is it realistic?  Five years of course work in biology, genomics, and BMB tells me HELL NO.  Is it simple and useable for a gaming system?  Sure, and it's a pretty elegant, no frills way of doing something that really doesn't need to be overly complicated in a game.  I know that after charting gene loci in class for months so I can properly replicate recombination effects against standard Mendelian genetics, I really don't want to have to worry about it in my leisure time.


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## Driddle (Jan 24, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I really don't know what your problem is.




Dude, calm down. I've already accepted your apology.

Is it because I didn't give a nod specifically to you? OK. Here ya go: "Thank you, Josh, for your expert opinion."


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## Torm (Jan 24, 2005)

I think it is because you referred to my opinion as "expert", and it isn't (although it is educated), and it seemed a little like a slight to Joshua's, because his _is_. I can see how Joshua's initial comment could be taken as rude, but I don't think he meant it that way, but rather just matter-of-fact. And it is rude to accept apologies before they are given, unless you full-out _know_ one is coming and the person is having difficulty admitting they were wrong, and you're doing it to be _nice_.

Seems to me you were both a little rude. Say you're sorry, kiss and make up. (Or, if you prefer, _in_ KISS make-up. Actually, definitely the second. That would be way cooler.  ) Oh, and I apologize for being rude and pointing out you're both being rude. Sorry.  

The merit that my opinion has isn't that it is expert, but that it places the outcome neatly on a d4, which is much more important for a roleplaying game. I agree with the posters that said whatever the outcome, the child should be considered Elf and Orc Blooded for purposes of magic items.


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## Desdichado (Jan 24, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> Dude, calm down. I've already accepted your apology.
> 
> Is it because I didn't give a nod specifically to you? OK. Here ya go: "Thank you, Josh, for your expert opinion."



I never said that *my* opinion was expert.  You had already obviously decided what to do before I even posted on the thread.  I'm just a bit surprised that when the actual expert opinions came in -- obviously expert by the proficiency with which they used technical knowledge that I am only passingly familiar with -- you completely bypassed that and went with something else entirely.

Just to set the record straight -- I'm not slighted, offended or insulted because you decided to do so.  I've said (for at least three posts in a row in this thread) that your solution is fine if it works for you.  I'm just a bit surprised that you didn't use the expert's opinions.  I'm not insulting you by saying that I'm surprised you're ignoring them; I'm just expressing matter-of-fact surprise.  Frankly, I thought they'd make for a more interesting game than having a human born of a half-elf/half-orc parentage anyway.  The discussion in the thread gave me some good ideas.

And also to set the record straight, I have not apologized for anything I've written in this thread, nor do I intend to.


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## Driddle (Jan 24, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I have not apologized for anything I've written in this thread, nor do I intend to.




There is no shame in apologizing, Josh. Don't succumb to peer pressure to strike a stubborn tough-guy pose.

So you're an expert, huh? I wish I'd looked at your profile first for clarification before I gave a nod to the wrong person.

Torm, you're out. My new best friend Josh is in.


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## Desdichado (Jan 24, 2005)

I'm not sure if I've been elaborately punkd or something here, but anyway...

yeah, Driddle's my new best friend.


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## fanboy2000 (Jan 24, 2005)

Voadam said:
			
		

> In D&D orcs, elves, and humans are not defined as different species. They are simply different "races" and so further mixing could be allowable or not with normal genetics depending on what DMs want to load into the term for their campaign concept.




I disagree. For example, Dragons can breed with creatures that ordinarily can't breed together. Is everyone part of the Dragon species? Maybe in some campaigns, but it certainly is the default.


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## The_Universe (Jan 24, 2005)

Damned double post!


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## The_Universe (Jan 24, 2005)

kirinke said:
			
		

> Wouldn't work.
> Real-world example:
> My mom is half german and half irish
> My dad is half german and half danish
> ...



 Well, that's maybe true in the traditional sense, but not the genetic one.  
________________
            |            |
Orc       |   Elf       |
_______ |________|
            |             | 
Human   |  Human  |
_______ |________|

If one assumes that that orcs, humans, and elves all have 2 chromosomes (and that's probably reasonable, considering that they all can apparently produce fertile offspring with eachother) then the overwhelming genetic makeup is likely to favor only one of a few possibilities - 

So what are the possible combinations of the child's genetic makeup?  

Orc+Elf (Probably stillborn?)
Orc+Human (Half-Orc - favors daddy!)
Human+Elf (Half-Elf - favors mommy!)
Human+Human (Human!)
Elf+Orc (Stillborn)
Elf+Human (Half-Elf - favors mommy!)
Human+Orc (Half-Orc - favors Daddy!)
Human+Human (favors grandparents? Human!)

So - while the child's appearance would probably be a blend of his or her parents and grandparents, the overall statblock (for obvious reasons) should probably come from an existing race - in all, I agree with the original post.   The child would have a 25% of being stillborn, a 25% of being a half-elf, a 25% of being a half-orc, and a 25% chance of being Human.


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## Umbran (Jan 24, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Actually, if genetics mattered, the closest real world analogy is what happens when you have two couples, each with one brown eyed and one blue eyed.




Hm, I'm surprised that I don't see a better real-world analogy - dog breeds.

Let's take Spot.  Spot is half Black Lab, and half Standard Poodle.
Then take Rover.  Rover is half Black Lab, and half German Shepherd.

If we breed Spot and Rover, we will never get a full blooded Black Lab out of the mix.  While the resulting dog may be rather lab-ish, it also may not.  It's a mutt, plain and simple.

The game rules  don't have a choice for "mutt humanoid", but also require that we choose some race.  The choice to call him human for mechanics is a reasonable easy solution, but that doesn't say that he really and truely is human.  It's just that for purposes of game mechanics, it's the race to which he'd have the greatest similarities.


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## Desdichado (Jan 24, 2005)

Exactly what I was trying to get across, Umbran, but you've done it much more deftly than I.


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## Mordane76 (Jan 24, 2005)

Using the consideration of D&D races being of the same species, this is a great analogy, Umbran, and a very nice way of phrasing it, and arscott pointed out a very nice way of denoting this as well - Shadow Heritage from d20 Modern.  

Maybe a 'mutt human' would received the benefits from the Shadow Heritage feat (low light and the save bonus), and one other MINOR ability from a parental race for +0 LA?  Or maybe give them a bonus first level feat or the skill points bonus from Human, but obviously not both, alongside the Shadow Heritage feat benefits for +0 LA.


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## Voadam (Jan 24, 2005)

fanboy2000 said:
			
		

> I disagree. For example, Dragons can breed with creatures that ordinarily can't breed together. Is everyone part of the Dragon species? Maybe in some campaigns, but it certainly is the default.




There is nothing in the rules that I have read that says race=species.

In a biological sense if dragons can interbreed with anything and produce fertile offspring then yes everything is dragon species.

But this brings up another option for the DM. Perhaps the pair cannot interbreed and produce offspring. Perhaps no half "race" can. It is an arbitrary decision for a DM to decide for his campaign.


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## painandgreed (Jan 24, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> The game rules  don't have a choice for "mutt humanoid", but also require that we choose some race.




How about Mongrel Men?

As far as dragons breeding with other stuff, I was always under the impression that they did so while polymorphed into the species that they were mating with. of course, this begs the questions of other races that are polymorphed doing the same. Can I have a half-pixie?

In such cases, I'd probably just say that the majority race (human in this case) takes over and any result of their quarter orc|elf is left the player or DM for flavor text traits.


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## Desdichado (Jan 24, 2005)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> As far as dragons breeding with other stuff, I was always under the impression that they did so while polymorphed into the species that they were mating with.



I would hope so!  Yikes!  Even the _Book of Vile Darkness_ didn't touch on the other alternatives..


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## Mordane76 (Jan 24, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I would hope so!  Yikes!  Even the _Book of Vile Darkness_ didn't touch on the other alternatives..




The _Book of Erotic Fantasy_ might have...


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## Torm (Jan 24, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> Torm, you're out. My new best friend Josh is in.



That's fine. _You_ weren't *tithing* properly, anyway. 

Umbran - unless I'm mistaken, which I could very well be, it isn't completely impossible to get a Black Lab back out. The odds are just approximately 4^(however many chromosomes dogs have) to 1 against.

But I don't even _want_ to see the die you'd have to roll to determine that in-game. 

P.S. to Joshua: If you don't *know* you've been Punk'd, it wasn't done right. We'll try again, later.


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## Desdichado (Jan 24, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> P.S. to Joshua: If you don't *know* you've been Punk'd, it wasn't done right. We'll try again, later.



:gulp:  You make a good point.


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## Mercule (Jan 24, 2005)

Biologically speaking, it'd be a mix, plain and simple.  Some features of each of the mixed ancestry groups.  Maybe a thick brow, slightly upturned nose, large canines, slightly tilted eyes, long fingers, fine hair, hair in potentially unusual places, slightly pointed ears, etc.  Pick a few traits and have fun.

Mechanically, it's going to be one of three things IMO: Human, Near-Human, or Mongrelfolk.  

It would be human if you decided that those aspects of its heritage showed through most.  I'm only 1/4 Scottish, but those seem to be many of the features that show through.  These things happen.

Near human, if there were some noteworthy differences, like low-light vision or some such.  Open up some odd-ball abilities as feats at first level.  If the PC takes any, he's near human.  Otherwise, he's human.  He'll breed with others as a human would.

If you decide the child is an freakish mix that actually displays the 25% influence of elf and orc, then make it a mongrelfolk.  That's pretty much exactly the explanation given for their existence.

IMC, I had a 1/4 elf PC (son of 1/2 elf PC) marry a half-orc NPC.  I ruled the kids were just human.  Over the generations since, they have largely married humans, with a couple of elves in the mix, so rarely does anyone manifest any orcish traits.  When a scion does show orcish blood, it's usually just in the form of being strong or tempermental.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 24, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> The player proposes that his half-orc PC and half-elf NPC love interest could actually have a fully human offspring, using the logic that each half human part of the parents' genetic makeup might actually get matched correctly with the other -- a 25 percent chance, he says.
> 
> Your perspective, please.



If you want to get really technical, then actually he's right. The country-ancestry analogy doesn't work because those aren't different species. I'd say it works this way:

25% Full Human
25% Half Orc
25% Half Elf
25% Half Orc/Half Elf


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## John Morrow (Jan 24, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> I'd say it works this way:
> 
> 25% Full Human
> 25% Half Orc
> ...




And 3 out of 4 of those are clearly viable, the last one being questionable.  From this perspective, a human isn't the only viable option, even if an Orc/Elf mix isn't viable.

On the other hand, real genetics often involve more than a single gene and there is also the issue of recombination.  That raises the question of whether all Half-Elves and Half-Orcs would be mules (can't have children at all) or whether the genes get so intermingled that the odds of a a viable offspring (a child that has either no Elf and/or no Orc genes) if the Elf/Orc genes are incompatible could be very slim.  Making Half-Elves and Half-Orcs like mules (they are viable but can't reproduce) creates some interesting dynamics, though it certainly contains a strong potential element of tragedy.


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## Driddle (Jan 24, 2005)

It would prove interesting to perform a census of the D&D population and track the changes in racial diversity over the last 10 years of gaming. I think we'd find many more PCs checking the "multi-racial" box on the survey.

It's my hope that some day we won't need to discriminate based on the pointy-ness of ears, the shortness of stature or the tusky-ness of teeth. All PCs will be of the same race -- simply, "People." 

(In the meantime, though, it's really bugging me that **** elf immigrants don't bother to learn Common. What country do they think they live in, anyway?!)


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## Truth Seeker (Jan 24, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> It would prove interesting to perform a census of the D&D population and track the changes in racial diversity over the last 10 years of gaming. I think we'd find many more PCs checking the "multi-racial" box on the survey.
> 
> It's my hope that some day we won't need to discriminate based on the pointy-ness of ears, the shortness of stature or the tusky-ness of teeth. All PCs will be of the same race -- simply, "People."
> 
> (In the meantime, though, it's really bugging me that **** elf immigrants don't bother to learn Common. What country do they think they live in, anyway?!)




That all depends on where they migrated from, some know the lesser tongue already(human), and secondly, and this debatable, the common tongue is very static in speaking...unlike elven, there is a certain somatic rhytm when it is spoken.


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## vox (Jan 25, 2005)

*racial tension*

A human child from half-orc/half-elf mating could cause quite a stir in the game world. Perhaps there would be a group out to get him if they realized what he/she was. Maybe his parents hid the facts about the child to protect him but things come to light when he becomes an adult. Some folks want to study him, some want to kill him as an abomination, some want to hold him as the symbol of the dawning of a new era, etc.

I think it would end up having some academics proposing the theory that elves, orcs and humans are all the same species; just different "breeds". That could cause a lot of fuss!  Lots of story potential there.


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## ecliptic (Jan 25, 2005)

> Wouldn't work.
> Real-world example:
> My mom is half german and half irish
> My dad is half german and half danish
> So I am half german, quarter irish and quarter danish.




That is not a good example. Irish, German and Danish are of all Caucasian decent. There is very little variation between the three.


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## Voadam (Jan 25, 2005)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> How about Mongrel Men?
> 
> As far as dragons breeding with other stuff, I was always under the impression that they did so while polymorphed into the species that they were mating with. of course, this begs the questions of other races that are polymorphed doing the same. Can I have a half-pixie?
> 
> .




In 3.5 only Bronze, Gold, and Silver Dragons have the alternate form ability and none of the other dragons have polymorph as a spell like ability.

Yet  "“Half-dragon” is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature)." and all the different metallics and chromatics can produce half dragons from the chart listed in the half dragon entry.


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## Umbran (Jan 25, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Umbran - unless I'm mistaken, which I could very well be, it isn't completely impossible to get a Black Lab back out. The odds are just approximately 4^(however many chromosomes dogs have) to 1 against.




You are slightly mistaken - there's a process called crossover that happens in replication/cell division, in which paired chromosomes will trade genes.  So, Spot will hand over some chromosomes that were originally black lab, but they'll have some standard poodle genes on them.  No amount of sorting of the chromosomes will save you!  Bwahahahaha!



> But I don't even _want_ to see the die you'd have to roll to determine that in-game.




And no amount of mathematical proof or dice-rolling will get the AKC to recognize your new doggie as a purebreed anyway


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## kirinke (Jan 25, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> That is not a good example. Irish, German and Danish are of all Caucasian decent. There is very little variation between the three.





Tell that to the germans, irish and danes. Heheh.

Actually, (for the most part) at least genetically, there is very little difference in the human 'races'. Only when you get to some of the more obscure, genetically isolated tribes, do you get noticable differences. Correct me if I'm wrong. My genetic history ranks are relatively low. lol.


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## Umbran (Jan 25, 2005)

kirinke said:
			
		

> Actually, (for the most part) at least genetically, there is very little difference in the human 'races'. Only when you get to some of the more obscure, genetically isolated tribes, do you get noticable differences.




Depends upon what you call "notable".  Humans, as a species, have a very low amount of genetic variety.  It's conjectured that this is due to the human population being very small at some point some time in the past.  It is often found that two individual humans of different races will have fewer genetic differences than two humans of the same race.


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## Fenris (Jan 26, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> And no amount of mathematical proof or dice-rolling will get the AKC to recognize your new doggie as a purebreed anyway




That is because the AKC tracks breed based upon an established and verifiable lineage. That same dog, could however pass as a purebred lab in a dog show since in dog show they look at breed traits. Assuming that a significant portion of alleles were black lab and (dare I introduce yet another twist...I dare) that those genes are expressed. And in truth, that is what truly matters from the original post, not the genotype of the progeny but the phenotype!

But to weigh in on the original question, I would thow my hat in with the sterile offspring crowd. Certainly it could look human, but if elves and orcs do not normally produce viable progeny, then we have some barrier to gene flow. Whatever that barrier is could easily be manifested as sterility in this odd case. If this were the casue of elf-orc genetic incompatibility, then I think that with recombination being what it is, that there would not be any viable births between the half-orc and the half-elf in the first place.


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## arscott (Jan 26, 2005)

Voadam said:
			
		

> In 3.5 only Bronze, Gold, and Silver Dragons have the alternate form ability and none of the other dragons have polymorph as a spell like ability.



Then it would appear some of them have 3.0 genes   

Seriously though, they can all cast sorcerer spells, and all achieve the minimum level for polymorph in later age categories.


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## Goblyns Hoard (Jan 26, 2005)

I always felt that the dragon cross-breeding was on the basis of the inherent magical nature of dragons, rather than on a species/genetic basis.  On the other hand I felt that elves humans and orcs were not inherently magical, so their cross-breeding had to stem from their biology.  Hence they are all the same species as each other and not just massively differentiated species of dragons.

If we want to break the molecular biology down - it could run that dragon genes are woven with some inherent magic which allows them to reconfigure to match any other species.  Celestial and Fiendish genes - as extraplanr beings - don't have genes but have the ability to magically impose a genetic 'shape' on their in-built desire to procreate.  Therefore all of these can breed with any creature and produce viable offspring (half-dragon, half-fiend and half-celestial).


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## Goblyns Hoard (Jan 26, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> It is often found that two individual humans of different races will have fewer genetic differences than two humans of the same race.




Interesting - can you point me at a source...  I'm wondering how this can be the case when organ donation problems become a serious issue in certain populations that's individuals are less frequent donors.

E.g. There were posters around London that point out that something like only 2% of black people in England carry organ donor cards or are willing to donate organs, yet 33% of black people will need a heart or maybe it was kidney donation at some time (been a while since I saw the posters - don't live in London anymore).  

Also there was a case where some racist tosser said he would donate organs but only if they went to white people. The doctors had to refuse because they aren't allowed to make those sort of restrictions - but at the same time they were saying that they would only ever go to a white person because of organ rejection.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong - just that the info I have is pointing the other direction and if you can point me to a new source that would be great!     I still work in genetic information and haven't seen anything on this (though I don't read the journals as much as I should)


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## Bagpuss (Jan 26, 2005)

All half-races are sterile in my campaign, so it isn't an issue.

If you want to bring genetics into it, then it would depend on which genes are dominatant. My money would be on the orc genes, and the child would most likely be a half-orc.


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## edbonny (Jan 26, 2005)

You can have a lot of fun options with this... I'd say playing a human is just out of the question. The bloodline is just not pure. One does not get a purebreed ancestor race from breeding two mutts. That leaves you figuring out what you want the new class to be/have. Besides designing a new race for this character, you can open up new options to the player once you have picked a race to start with.

Start off with choosing to be either a half-elf or a half-orc and challenging the player to define the character intertwining three ancestral races. Here are a few ideas:
> Allow the character to take feats, prestige classes, etc. normally exclusive to those of human, orcish or elvish blood. Races of Faerun has a good number of both.
> Consider allowing the character access to one or two levels of the various human / elf / orc racial paragon classes introduced in Unearthed Arcana as a means of exploring his racial heritage.
> Create an elf-touched feat if the character is a half-orc or an orc-touched feat if the character is a half-elf, that allows some "voice" to the character's less obvious heritage. Is a human-touched feat out of the question?

- Ed


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## Driddle (Jan 26, 2005)

*A Tangent*

Amusing, isn't it, that in a fantasy world driven by magic, the game designers continue to adhere to certain unwritten rules regarding humanoid breeding?

Why is this still reenforced in our increasingly small (real) world? Why not just break down the character-design system into the two elements that would serve players best?: 1. PC descriptors such as pointy ears or background heritage, and 2. game mechanics such as +2 ability or darkvision.

Because the premise that certain "races" of people -- who can interbreed and produce viable offspring -- are limited by consistent physical characteristics is a cliche that serves no good purpose in our world. We've outgrown that (or most of us have).

So I ask again, Why do we keep it in a game? Why is it so appealing?


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## Goblyns Hoard (Jan 26, 2005)

*Taking the tangent and running with it*

I think that the original game design was really trying to capture the concept different 'species' but referred to them as races rather than species.  I'd say it probably stems from Tolkien who refers to the race of elves, the race of man, etc.  They also ran with the elves and men can breed based on Elrond Half-Elven and his children.  And as so many of us are just so used to these ideas that they've become sacred cows.

Anyone up for a sacrifice?

Options:

1) Some 'species' are in fact races and can interbreed producing viable offspring (elves and humans), others are related species and can interbreed and produce non-viable offspring (humans and dwarves), while still others can not produce any offspring at all (humans and centaurs).

2) Magic allows certain 'species' to interbreed and produce viable offspring (elves and humans, orcs and humans), but not others (elves and orcs).  All races are species but non are close enough related to produce non-viable offspring.

3) Everything is just a really wierd race of dragons and can in fact breed with anything else... it just doesn't happen very often

Thoughts?  Ideas? Flames for hijacking an otherwise interesting thread?


----------



## Desdichado (Jan 26, 2005)

Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> I think that the original game design was really trying to capture the concept different 'species' but referred to them as races rather than species.  I'd say it probably stems from Tolkien who refers to the race of elves, the race of man, etc.  They also ran with the elves and men can breed based on Elrond Half-Elven and his children.  And as so many of us are just so used to these ideas that they've become sacred cows.



Personally, I don't think 'species' or anything like that was on the minds of the first developers (although I guess we could ask; Col_Pladoh still hangs around occasionally.)  I think they were just pure Tolkienisms and nothing else.  And even Tolkien didn't really address the concept of his races in biological terms, except in an obscure note in his previously unpublished notes, drafts and setting files, in which he states that elves and men are biologicall the same, yet _spiritually_ different.

But hey, Tolkien's got half-elves and half-orcs, so so does D&D.  I think it's really that simple and no thought was given to any type of realistic biological ramifications of that.


			
				Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> Anyone up for a sacrifice?



Sure, I've already done it.


			
				Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> 1) Some 'species' are in fact races and can interbreed producing viable offspring (elves and humans), others are related species and can interbreed and produce non-viable offspring (humans and dwarves), while still others can not produce any offspring at all (humans and centaurs).



It's still not quite that simple.  A lot of taxonomists are thrown for a loop by all kinds of weird things that happen in the real world.  Still trying to decide the classification of the various groupings of the genus _Canis_ for example, with _Canis lupus lupus_ and _Canis lupus familiaris_ and _Canis lupus dingo_ on one end, and _Canis lupus_, _Canis familiaris_ and _Canis dingo_ on the other.  If we can't figure that out in real life with an animal with which we're very familiar, why do we demand more precision from our fantasy races?


			
				Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> 2) Magic allows certain 'species' to interbreed and produce viable offspring (elves and humans, orcs and humans), but not others (elves and orcs).  All races are species but non are close enough related to produce non-viable offspring.



I think the typos in that last sentence obscured the meaning somewhat, but if you're saying that all races are species, yet are closely enough related to produce viable (yet non-fertile?) offspring; mules, so to speak, then that's a good idea for why we have half-elves and half-orcs in the game.  This is probably the best fit to what we actually see represented in the core rules.


			
				Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> 3) Everything is just a really wierd race of dragons and can in fact breed with anything else... it just doesn't happen very often



I wonder.  The fact that we have half-elves and half-orcs that are crossed with humans, but no other combinations, does indeed suggest a cultural divide more than a biological one.  Maybe they all can interbreed?  The whole half-_x_ template issue, on the other hand, just doesn't work from a biological standpoint; I'd recommend either tossing it entirely, or tossing biology instead.  The two are irreconcilable, IMO.


			
				Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> Thoughts?  Ideas? Flames for hijacking an otherwise interesting thread?



Well, since the thread-starter started his own hijack, I'd say that's OK...


----------



## Driddle (Jan 26, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> ... The whole half-_x_ template issue, on the other hand, just doesn't work from a biological standpoint; I'd recommend either tossing it entirely, or tossing biology instead.




Thus my suggestion that we divorce game mechanics (the pluses and minuses and special abilities) from the descriptors (cosmetics and ethnic background). 

For example, make the +2/-2 ability modifier a choice separate from whether the PC is called a "half-elf" or "dwarf".

Once you do that, a player could have a PC he refers to as "mostly human, with some orc blood from my father's side of the family and elf blood from my mom," without going through contortions to get there.


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## Desdichado (Jan 26, 2005)

Ah, I wasn't following that train of thought.  Yeah, I could do that.  Especially with the various "half" races.

That does seem a bit drastic, though.  I wonder how many people would go for "using elf stats, but calling myself a hobgoblin" or something like that.  It's not a problem if the character is supposed to be some kind of demihuman mutt, but otherwise I can imagine a lot of resistance to the idea.


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## Kemrain (Jan 26, 2005)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> As far as dragons breeding with other stuff, I was always under the impression that they did so while polymorphed into the species that they were mating with. of course, this begs the questions of other races that are polymorphed doing the same. Can I have a half-pixie?




I was always under the impression that body parts removed from a polymprphed creature returned to their origional state.  Bodily fluids probably aren't an exception. This might cause difficulties if the polymorphed creature is male. If it's the female that's polymprphed, she would probbly need to remain polymorphed for the entire pregnancy, or at least a few days after copulation to assure fertalization.  It's a very interesting idea.



			
				Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> If we want to break the molecular biology down - it could run that dragon genes are woven with some inherent magic which allows them to reconfigure to match any other species. Celestial and Fiendish genes - as extraplanr beings - don't have genes but have the ability to magically impose a genetic 'shape' on their in-built desire to procreate. Therefore all of these can breed with any creature and produce viable offspring (half-dragon, half-fiend and half-celestial).




I agree with the idea that Outsiders don't breed in the same way that creatures native to the prime do.  It opens a whole new can of worms that, while very interesting, is rather off topic.  Suffice it to say, I would speculate that an outsider would need to *want* a child in order to be 'fertile', otherwise we'd probably see such things as Half-Fiendish Bacteria...  To that end, I'm suprised we don't.

- Kemrain the [Evil].


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## Driddle (Jan 26, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> That does seem a bit drastic, though. ...  I can imagine a lot of resistance to the idea.




Roleplayers pride themselves on fluid imaginations, and yet we default to game mechanics to define entire races.

There's a lesson in human nature there somewhere... :\


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## Kast (Jan 26, 2005)

IMC Orcs, Elves and Humans are combatible genetically/magically - same difference if contemperaries don't understand the process. Orcs and Elves represent two extremes and humans are in the middle. 

I have created the templates Orc-blooded and Elf-blooded to describe off-spring of mixed parentage - where the player wants his PC to show those traits. 

I would allow the child of a half-orc and a half-elf to be described as human. That is certainly possible as far as the game-mechanics are concerned, although the actual creature would still have elf and orc traits locked away in it's being somewhere.


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## Joker (Jan 27, 2005)

I remember a similar thread posted a few months ago and I stand by my earlier reply:

Have a halfing come out and scare the  out of everyone.


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## Goblyns Hoard (Jan 27, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't think 'species' or anything like that was on the minds of the first developers <snip> I think they were just pure Tolkienisms and nothing else




That was what I was getting at - they just ran with what they saw in Tolkien, without considering the implications on any further level.  It's only now that so many more players have a decent grasp of genetics (still a fairly rudimentary science back in the late 70s) that we get into the debates about it.



			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Sure, I've already done it.




So how do you handle these things (or have I missed a post higher up this thread   )



			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> It's still not quite that simple.  A lot of taxonomists are thrown for a loop by all kinds of weird things that happen in the real world.  <snip>  If we can't figure that out in real life with an animal with which we're very familiar, why do we demand more precision from our fantasy races?




Not saying it is or we should - just presenting some options for people to use as explanations in a game.  However as a DM I want to understand how MY world works so that when a player asks I can answer.  Afterall I'm the only thing that counts as truly omniscient in my world (well maybe those lesser beings the characters call gods, but only on a good day).  And as a DM with a degree in genetics I think I can.  In my world all half-breeds are non-viable, and there are some half-breeds that most worlds don't go with (e.g. half-dwarves).  However magical creatures (celestials, dragons, fiends, maybe some others) have the ability to manipulate they're genetics into working like a human's (or elf's or bugbear's...) while still passing on the traits of the magical creature.




			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I think the typos in that last sentence obscured the meaning somewhat, but if you're saying that all races are species, yet are closely enough related to produce viable (yet non-fertile?) offspring; mules, so to speak, then that's a good idea for why we have half-elves and half-orcs in the game.  This is probably the best fit to what we actually see represented in the core rules.




Ooops... ummmm.... yeah didn't put that very well did I.  The idea was that no races are closely enough related that they can breed at all on a biological basis.  They can't even produce mules.  However the magic/divine intervention/bizarre magnetic field/whatever allows a few limited species to breed together and produce viable offspring.  As you said probably the closest to the 'basic D&D world'



			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I wonder.  The fact that we have half-elves and half-orcs that are crossed with humans, but no other combinations, does indeed suggest a cultural divide more than a biological one.  Maybe they all can interbreed?  The whole half-_x_ template issue, on the other hand, just doesn't work from a biological standpoint; I'd recommend either tossing it entirely, or tossing biology instead.  The two are irreconcilable, IMO.




I'd have to say not neccessarily.  You can combine the explanations of magic and biology - I feel my point above holds up to that:

Some species breed on a basic biological level, others on a magical level.  

Those that breed purely biologically have to conform to the rules of genetics and need to be effectively a species.  This assumes the word species is the biological concept of an organism capable of breeding true with another organism of the same species rather than a species because someone somewhere decided it was a separate species (e.g. your wolf-dog divide which as you point out is very probably not a true species boundary.  These creatures may have close relatives they can produce mules with, or may not.  Thus elves, humans and orcs could be a single species with very large allelic variation between the populations, while dwarves are an entirely separate species.  However the relationships between all of them are constrained by biology - none are inherently magical enough to change their genes through an act of will (though who knows what a wish could do).

Those that breed magically are able to overcome the constraints of simple biology - their inherent magical nature allows them to imprint a morphology on their chromosomes that allows those genes to be compatible with the chromosomes of another species.  Those chromosomes allow the organism to breed true with other members of that species, and may (or may not) retain enough of their inherent magic to allow the half-x to breed true with a third species.  Effectively the magic introduces a set of new alleles into the gene pool of that species - alleles which reflect the nature of the magical being they derived from.

Personally I feel that this option is much cleaner - it retains fundamental biology but includes magic and thus includes the major aspects of a D&D world.


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## Goblyns Hoard (Jan 27, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Suffice it to say, I would speculate that an outsider would need to *want* a child in order to be 'fertile'[Evil].




Yep - exactly what I was getting at


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## Desdichado (Jan 27, 2005)

Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> So how do you handle these things (or have I missed a post higher up this thread   )



No, I probably haven't gone into it in this thread, but I kinda cheated anyway; I use a lot of homebrew races in lieu of orcs, elves, dwarves, etc.  All of them are essentially human biologically, but are new races from a games mechanics perspective.  The backstory is that humanity was enslaved for many, many generations in the past, and bred in the same way that we have breeds of dogs, cats, horses, cattle, etc.  These breeds are true; if they don't mix and produce "mutts" (which of course, they can, but I haven't really explored that yet.)  That's the version I'm currently running, anyway.  The Mk. II version of the setting, which I'm working on on the side for later introduces a race that mechanically (and appearance-wise as well) will be very similar to Claudio Pozas' half-orcs --I'd link to his pictures, but I'm not sure where the hosted sites have gone anymore-- and explore a dynamic similar to when we had modern humans and Neanderthals coexisting.  I'm thinking of having them actually be difference species in that case; able to produce sterile offspring only.  In both cases, that ignores the half-x templates, which I would interpret as not actually genetic half-breeds, but rather magical transformations of formerly regular humans/orcs/x-creature.


			
				Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> I'd have to say not neccessarily.  You can combine the explanations of magic and biology - I feel my point above holds up to that:



True, that.  Good post.  I like that somewhat more limited and repeatable aspect of magic.  One of my pet peeves is a rather blasé handwave of "it's magic" to explain things.  Yes, it's magic, but if it still doesn't make any sense, that's not desirable (in my opinion, of course.)  You've got a good workaround; it's magic, but it's consistent and repeatable; almost as if magical implications are another scientific discipline rather than simply a plot device.  Good show!


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## Goblyns Hoard (Jan 27, 2005)

Cheers mate

The Hoard

PS - any chance you could elaborate on those races of yours... I've got plenty of 'open space' in my current homebre - mostly because none of the game has gone anywhere near it and I don't want to design stuff just for the sake of it, I'd rather wait until a good idea comes along and I'm always looking out for something a bit different.  At the moment I need a race of desert-based lizard men (rather than the amphibian types in the MM).  I'm using the Reptilian template from Savage Species, but any new ideas are always appreciated.


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## Desdichado (Jan 27, 2005)

Sure, you can look at my campaign website; the races page is specifically right here and if you're interested, you can get to the rest of the stuff from there.  The DM only stuff is largely done in a Ray Winninger Dungeoncraft style (I've been meaning to update that for some time, but there's still 13-14 or so articles on the setting right here.)

At least, that's where they are now.  I'm going to have to take them off that server by the end of February as my web-hosting company is going through a major overhaul, and as a result I'm getting more services (which I don't want) and getting a major price hike.  I'll be moving all these files away from them when that happens, and I haven't identified a new address yet.  In any case, if you do want to look at them, I'd suggest you do it sooner rather than later...


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## Sykotyck (Jun 13, 2005)

*(not of Subject)*

Just saying hi...


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## the Jester (Jun 13, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if I've been elaborately punkd or something here, but anyway...




Neither am I, but it was fun to watch it happen- whatever it was.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 13, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> The player proposes that his half-orc PC and half-elf NPC love interest could actually have a fully human offspring, using the logic that each half human part of the parents' genetic makeup might actually get matched correctly with the other -- a 25 percent chance, he says.
> 
> Your perspective, please.




I say "yes" AND "no."

No: His character would be a "mutt," and not truly 100% human (as has been mentioned in above posts).

Yes: I'd allow a player to have such a character.  However, for all rules and effects related to race, he's considered a human.


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 13, 2005)

They have rules for this: The kids are called mongrelfolk.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 13, 2005)

Shazman said:
			
		

> Actually the Kingdoms of Kalamar supplement, "Dangerous Denizens" has stats for unlikely half-races including a half-elf/half-orc mixture.  I can't remember the stats right now, but it's an interesting concept.




Dangerous Denizens, page 207-208

It's the _tel-amhothlan _ (in Elven), or the _guruk-vra _ in Orcish.

Basically, as follows, without the flavor text/details:

+2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Low-light vision
Orc blood
+1 against Enchantment spells/effects
+1 on Listen, Search, Spot
Automatic Languages: Orcish or Elven (depends which parent raised it)
Favored Class: Fighter


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## AZNtrogdor (Jun 13, 2005)

Mark Plemmons said:
			
		

> Dangerous Denizens, page 207-208
> 
> It's the _tel-amhothlan _(in Elven), or the _guruk-vra _in Orcish.
> 
> ...




I think it would be really cool if someone could draw a picture of what you think one of these might look like


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## Kaodi (Jun 13, 2005)

*Interbreeding...*

Since this is D&D, and not the real world, my preference would be something like this: As in Middle Earth,  where Orcs are descended from Elves, start with the idea that Elf and Orc are like two sides of a coin. For whatever reason, maybe a direct cross between an Elf and an Orc either isn't possible, or results in aborted fetuses. Perhaps because they are opposites, they don't mix well together. 
Now, since both Elves and Orcs can mix with  Humans, perhaps the Human blood allows healthy babies with both Elf and Orc mixed in, allowing the traits of both Elf and Orc. Since this type on union is probably quite rare, you could allow the result to be more a mixture of Elf and Orc than Half-Elf and Half-Orc, combining some of the best features of both... And even make it a +1 or better race.

Alignment Tendancy: Chaotic Neutral
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Wis - Both strong, graceful and ruggedly beautiful, but suffers from a clash of personalities that often leaves them susceptible to manipulation.
Low-light Vision
+2 Racial Bonus on Listen, Search and Spot
Automatic Languages: Common, plus one or both of Elven and Orc; Bonus Lanuages: Any (but favour Sylvan)
Favoured Classes: Ranger and Druid - More attuned to the myriad forces of nature than any branch of their ancestors.


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## frankthedm (Jun 13, 2005)

The frailer elf blood is killed by the stronger orc blood. With only 1/2 the blood it should have had, the child dies in the womb.


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## Conaill (Jun 14, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Let's take Spot.  Spot is half Black Lab, and half Standard Poodle.
> Then take Rover.  Rover is half Black Lab, and half German Shepherd.
> 
> If we breed Spot and Rover, we will never get a full blooded Black Lab out of the mix.  While the resulting dog may be rather lab-ish, it also may not.  It's a mutt, plain and simple.



Exactly.

If this is just for a one-of-a-kind offspring, I'd be tempted to emphasize the random outcome of such an offspring. For each of the affected traits, roll a d4. 25% chance the offspring gets the Elf trait, 25% chance the Orc trait, and 50% chance it gets the human version of the trait. At the end, adjust some of the numbers (preferably by moving them closer to the 1/2 orc or 1/2 elf side) to gets something roughly LA+0.

For example, Elves get +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution, whereas Orcs get +4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma. Let's roll randomly, and decide to give the offspring Human Dex, Elf Con, Orc Str, Human Int and Wis, Elf Cha... that means -2 Con, +4 Str.

Now let's look at the other Elf traits. (Some more random rolling...) offspring gets Low-Light Vision and a +2 bonus on Listen, Search and Spot, plus ability to sense secret doors. Other Orc traits... (roll, roll...) offspring gets Favored class: Barbarian.

Not too bad overall, although somewhat overpowered. So let's reduce some of these closer to 1/2 orc and 1/2 elven stats... how about +2 Str / -2 Con, Low Light Vision, +1 on Listen/Search/Spot and Favored Class: Brb. Sounds like a viable PC to me...

For the same money, you could have gotten something like +2 Dex, -2 Wis, Favored Class: Wizard, and Darkvision. Or -2 Con, -2 Cha, immune to magical sleep, +2 vs. enchantments, an d Light Sensitivity. Ouch... could make for an interesting NPC though!


Again, I would only use this on a case-by-case basis. Once you get a whole race of these type of crossbreeds, it makes much more sense to write up something a bit more uniform and predictable.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 14, 2005)

AZNtrogdor said:
			
		

> I think it would be really cool if someone could draw a picture of what you think one of these might look like




You'll see the Tel-Amhothlan as the second from the left.  Quality of the scan isn't that great, but I don't have the original art file at the moment.

From left to right: half-dwarf, half-elf/half-orc, half-gnome, half-goblin, human, half-gnoll.

All have 25% chance to grow to full term, 50% to survive past first month after birth, and 75% chance to live a normal lifespan (25% die at middle age).


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## Steel_Wind (Jun 14, 2005)

arscott said:
			
		

> So in order to inherit all human DNA, the hypothetical child would have to get all 46 human chromosomes. The chances of that happening is 1 in 2^46 (which is 70,368,744,177,664)




It's actually far worse than even this. Gene crossovers among the chromsomes themselves during meiosis will jumble all those genes together among the parent sperm and egg. The result?: It's just an infetismally small chance of occurring.  You have a far greater chance of your computer shorting our and exploding and killing you right now as you read this. 

BOOM? Dead yet? How about now?

So it's a frighteningly unrealistic statistical possibility. It is so remote a chance one can say that it is beyond any moral certianty that it will NEVER happen.


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## Andor (Jun 14, 2005)

I find it interesting that when discussing a fantasy world where the basics of chemisty are so altered that gun powder won't burn, everyone still assumes deoxyribonucleic acid works just fine. 

Why pretend DnD genetics have a damm thing to do with real life genetics? It's all a matter of blood don't you know.  That's why elf blood is still detectable in humans tens of generations after the mixing. (In Tolkein anyway.)

Seriously, in a world with half-dragon griffons and half-celestial oozes, why are you quibbling about meiosis?

If you want the two halves to make a whole do so. If you don't, feel free to screw them sideways. Have the baby be a teifling. Or even a cambion. Maybe elves and orcs don't interbreed for very immediate and practical reasons....


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## Storyteller01 (Jun 14, 2005)

Sejs said:
			
		

> Human racial stats, but 'genetics' ...eh.  Genetics don't matter for much in D&D.




Agreed. Might operate as a human, but I dont think he'll pass for one.


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## Dirigible (Jun 14, 2005)

> The frailer elf blood is killed by the stronger orc blood. With only 1/2 the blood it should have had, the child dies in the womb.




Behold, science!

The best way to make a character like this would probably be to go with human rules, and use those extra feats and skill points to acquire abilities that suggest quarter-orc / quarter-elf / all-MAN. Like, uh... Power Attack and Spell Focus: Poncy? Ranks in Knowledge: Quaffing and Profession: Flower Arrangement?


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## Storyteller01 (Jun 14, 2005)

Andor said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that when discussing a fantasy world where the basics of chemisty are so altered that gun powder won't burn, everyone still assumes deoxyribonucleic acid works just fine.
> 
> Why pretend DnD genetics have a damm thing to do with real life genetics? It's all a matter of blood don't you know.  That's why elf blood is still detectable in humans tens of generations after the mixing. (In Tolkein anyway.)
> 
> ...




Reminds me of a shortstory I've read awhile back. Comet passed by Earth, turning water to nitro and gas to something edible. Nice read...


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## RandomPrecision (Jun 14, 2005)

I'm sorry, but I don't see how the spawn of a half-orc and half-elf has a 25% chance of being human, 25% chance of death, 25% half-elf, and 25% half-orc.  You're saying that orc, elf, and human are all alleles that segregate and behave like a Punnet Square.  If that was true, the offspring of two half-elves would be a half-elf only 50% of the time.


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## WayneLigon (Jun 14, 2005)

Storyteller01 said:
			
		

> Reminds me of a shortstory I've read awhile back. Comet passed by Earth, turning water to nitro and gas to something edible. Nice read...




"Something Passed By", one of my favorite stories.


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## Aeolius (Jun 14, 2005)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> How about Mongrel Men?




darnnit...somebody beat me to it  

   You want to see some mixed-up lineage? Try one of my campaigns, for awhile. Everyone seems to have some hags blood in them, somewhere


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## Zappo (Jun 14, 2005)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> As far as dragons breeding with other stuff, I was always under the impression that they did so while polymorphed into the species that they were mating with.



I hope so.


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## Umbran (Jun 14, 2005)

Andor said:
			
		

> Why pretend DnD genetics have a damm thing to do with real life genetics?




Why pretend that the parents have any impact at all upon what the baby is?  Why not have human mothers give birth to elves, or fish, or overstuffed chairs?  

Because the notions of inheretance are based upon observed real life.  Sure, fantasy has embellished and changed the notions of inheretance in these non-existant worlds, but there is something to be said for the verisimilitude you get from basing stuff on things the players understand intuitively.  

Or, to look at it like poetry - it is usually a good idea to understand the rules before you break and bend and twist them to fit your needs.


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## Andor (Jun 15, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Why pretend that the parents have any impact at all upon what the baby is?  Why not have human mothers give birth to elves, or fish, or overstuffed chairs?
> 
> Because the notions of inheretance are based upon observed real life.  Sure, fantasy has embellished and changed the notions of inheretance in these non-existant worlds, but there is something to be said for the verisimilitude you get from basing stuff on things the players understand intuitively.
> 
> Or, to look at it like poetry - it is usually a good idea to understand the rules before you break and bend and twist them to fit your needs.




Umm... Yeah. That was kind of my entire point. You can just base it off of the intuitively understood fantasy tropes of bloodlines and familial inheritance, rather than actual science which your players may or may not be familiar with.


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## TheAuldGrump (Jun 15, 2005)

HellHound said:
			
		

> Sure, he would be 1/4 elf, 1/4 orc, 1/2 human, but in game terms we'd be dealing with a full-blooded human in most campaigns I've seen. (including mine, when running my few campaigns that allow half-elves)




I have _never_ seen it handled that way - typically I have seen it either run as a 'pure' half orc or a 1/2 human, 1/2 orc, 1/4 elf hybrid.

For my own homebrew campaign they would be treated as 1/2 elfs, since orcs are merely an offshoot of humans... the differences being environmental and cultural as well as genetic - they are the only true 'race' game wise, the others are 'species'. And elfs have, ummm, _interesting_ genetics... 1/2 elfs are sterile hybrids.

The Auld Grump


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## ender_wiggin (Jun 15, 2005)

Well, to beat a dead horse, applying real-world genetics to your scenario would mean that there's no way a half-orc and a half-elf are producing an offspring. Technically speaking they can't even mate with each other, as half-breeds can't produce offspring. Unless you rule that Orcs and humans and elves are all the same species, merely different ethnicities.

Also, IMW I wouldn't allow it, as half-orcs and half-elves wouldn't be able to mate. Two humans, one with faint orcish blood, and one with faint elven blood, however, might be able to produce a human offspring. I'd allow the player that.


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## TheAuldGrump (Jun 15, 2005)

ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> Well, to beat a dead horse, applying real-world genetics to your scenario would mean that there's no way a half-orc and a half-elf are producing an offspring. Technically speaking they can't even mate with each other, as half-breeds can't produce offspring. Unless you rule that Orcs and humans and elves are all the same species, merely different ethnicities.
> 
> Also, IMW I wouldn't allow it, as half-orcs and half-elves wouldn't be able to mate. Two humans, one with faint orcish blood, and one with faint elven blood, however, might be able to produce a human offspring. I'd allow the player that.




Orcs and humans, yes, they are the same species, merely different breeds/races.

Elfs are 'special', but produce sterile hybrids with either.

Dwarfs are not interfertile with humans, orcs, or elfs. (But can produce sterile hybrids with ogres, a situation that has ne'er come up - dwarfs in my campaign are giants, just very _short_ giants... and ogres are a lot nicer than their stock D&D counterparts, rape isn't on their menu.)

Halflings are also a human race, but the result of a double recessive, so a human and a halfling pairing produces human offspring, while two half-halflings have a chance of producing a halfling. Elf-halfling pairings always keep the small size of the halfling parent, and are sterile hybrids.

The Auld Grump


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## RandomPrecision (Jun 15, 2005)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> ...half-halflings...




Quarterlings?


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## glass (Jun 15, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Why pretend that the parents have any impact at all upon what the baby is?  Why not have human mothers give birth to elves, or fish, or overstuffed chairs?




I feel an adventure idea coming on...  


glass.


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## Tarril Wolfeye (Jun 15, 2005)

You're all doing it wrong.    
Using the _Scientific Method_ we should

1. Examine reality (what are the rules for half-races)
 - human + elf = half-elf; human + orc = half-orc; human + ogre = half-ogre (RoD)...  
 - half-humans are races, other half-races are templates
 - half-humans inherit weaker traits from their non-human part
 - other half-races inherit all traits from their "weaker" part and modify them
 - some templated half-races can go either way: half-dragon fiend / half-fiend dragon

2. Formulate a hypothesis (or just guess at the underlying principles)
 - half humans result in mixing the "weak" human race with other races, diluting those
 - other half-races result in superimposing a racial energy on the "weaker" part
 - half-races can only result from an unequal pairing, two equally "strong" races don't mix
 - humans are the weakest race, followed by other humanoids, then everyone else
 - if two "strong" races mix, the resulting half-race is mostly chosen by chance

3. Test our hypothesis (against the feel of "what's right", by looking at the consequences)
 - there could be half-dwarves or half-hobgoblins or even half-halflings   
 - the "racial energy" seems to be magical, so it breaks even barriers of monster type
 - there can be no orc/elf-hybrid except via templates
 - humans are "special" in a strange way; everything can mate with humans
 - every non-human half-race should use the template rules

4. Modify our hypothesis based of the results of 3.
 - put half-dwarves and other new half-races in our campaigns or explain their non-existence
 - can we detect this "racial magical energy"; if not, why? Is it even magical?
 - if we really want an orc/elf-hybrid we must scrap the theory
 - don't like "special" humans? Just change the theory
 - if there's a non-human half-race that's not a template, we must adjust the theory.

And 5. Start over if there is anything we cannot make fit.

We should use genetics _only_ if it fits what we know.
(/smartass)


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## Bagpuss (Jun 15, 2005)

Half-race creatures are sterile in my campaign so it's never been an issue.


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## glass (Jun 15, 2005)

How about this:

What if there are two parallel methods of heridity: heredity of body (ie genetics) and heredity of spirit (some other mechanism). The former works more or less like it does IRL (to the limits of the DMs understanding). The latter works under it own set of rules (which we can make up).

Which method is more significant varies from pairing to pairing: for example, demons would probably have no genetics at all, but very compatible spirits.

Humans, elves and orcs would be genetically compatible (the same species), orcs and elves would be spiritually incompatible with each other.

Whatya think?


glass.


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## Umbran (Jun 15, 2005)

ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> WTechnically speaking they can't even mate with each other, as half-breeds can't produce offspring. Unless you rule that Orcs and humans and elves are all the same species, merely different ethnicities.




Speciation isn't quite that simple.  Capability of interbreed is a major component used to define species, but it is not the only thing.  Consider that every single extinct species ever classified has gone through the process without any check of how it interbreeds.  For them, it's all done on phenotype, mostly only skeletal structure.  

And then there's things like dogs - large number of phenotypes available, to the point where physically, interbreeding cannot happen.  But genetically all the same species.

Humans are a bit odd - as a species, despite out racial phenotypes, we have a remarkably low level of genetic diversity.  So perhaps we aren't considering that elves and orcs are the same species, but something a bit more broad - that D&D humanoids are all one species, like dogs.  Humans, elves, dwarves, orcs goblins, hobgoblins... all one under the skin.

The limitations on breeding between some of them may be more akin to things seen in dogs - more a matter of physical or developmental issues than genetic incompatability.  Tack on top of that the social differences, and you're all set.  One common humanoid species, in the process of speciation to fill many niches.


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## Aeolius (Jun 15, 2005)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Half-race creatures are sterile in my campaign so it's never been an issue.




   No planetouched tieflings or aasimar in your campaigns, then?

   I typically follow Nigel Findley's example in DRAGON #125. In "The Ecology of the Greenhag", he desribed greenhags as the daughters of night hags and humans, while the annis was the daughter of a greenhag by either a hill giant or ogre. The daughters of an annis were females of the father's race, though with a blue tint to their skin.

   Granted, I've added to that a bit.  Generally, my hags breed with just about everything and produce viable offspring by the union.


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## cmanos (Jun 15, 2005)

By 'simple' genetics...like for determination of sex, yes....

Male = XY
Female  = XX

drawing up a simple genetic chart you get a 50% chance of a female and a 50% chanc eof a male.

Race is not a simple gene. Take skin color.  In an interratial breeding between an extremely dark skilled person and an extremely lightskinned person, the skin colors of the children will vary from dark to light.  None will be as dark as the dark skinned parent or as light as the light skinned parent.  If two mulatos were to breed, odds are their children would not be extremely dark skinned or extremely light skinned. 

Nationality isn't a good analogy as genetics don't know anything about what country you are from.

As for the case at hand, the children of a breeding between an half orc and a half elf, IFF we consider that orcs and humans are not completely different species and can breed true, may be something looking like an orc, something looking like an elf, or something looking like a human or some mucky mix.

Personally, I would make the person playing the child of such a union decide which 'race' they would claim their abilities and such from.  Some may be more bestial and orclike, some may be more fine and elflike, some may be more akin to humans.  If the character is one of the parents, I'd make sure to make the child a roleplaying tool.  Perhaps the child looks like an elf if the character lives in an orc community.


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## werk (Jun 15, 2005)

I vote...Gibbering Mouther!

It was either that or gnome.


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## Tarril Wolfeye (Jun 15, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> How about this:
> 
> What if there are two parallel methods of heridity: heredity of body (ie genetics) and heredity of spirit (some other mechanism). The former works more or less like it does IRL (to the limits of the DMs understanding). The latter works under it own set of rules (which we can make up).
> 
> ...



I like it a lot. And it's not a tangled mess, unlike my "Scientific Method".


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## Thaniel (Jun 15, 2005)

fanboy2000 said:
			
		

> I love fantasy genetics. I'd allow it because it adds to the flavor of fantasy logic that permeates my D&D worlds.
> 
> As others have noted, creating a fertile child from the mating of two diffrent species is impossible in the real world. No accurate comparison exists. The closest I can think of are dog breeds.




Actually, some Ligers (half tiger half lion) are fertile. There goes your assumption of "impossible". To quote Jeff Goldblum's character from Jurassic Park, "Life will find a way."


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## takyris (Jun 15, 2005)

Ugh. Threads like this are why my campaign world has humans, humans, humans, and stuff that can't mate with humans. If I start making half-races, it's going to be through genetic manipulation via incredibly powerful magics man was never meant to wield, just like the gods intended.


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## werk (Jun 15, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> Ugh. Threads like this are why my campaign world has humans, humans, humans, and stuff that can't mate with humans. If I start making half-races, it's going to be through genetic manipulation via incredibly powerful magics man was never meant to wield, just like the gods intended.




So no aberrations in your game either?


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## the black knight (Jun 15, 2005)

This is the dumbest thread I've ever read.


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## Aeolius (Jun 15, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> ...my campaign world has humans, humans, humans, and stuff that can't mate with humans.




I guess one branch of the Night Hag Family Tree would positively frighten you, then


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## takyris (Jun 15, 2005)

werk said:
			
		

> So no aberrations in your game either?




Only those created through the use of horrific magical arts involving the artifacts of dead gods and the destruction of sacred places of power and the opening of the eyes of the world to the hellish abyss over which all of creation hangs suspended by a spidersilk thread of protective ignorance. You know, like the gods intended.


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## TheAuldGrump (Jun 16, 2005)

the black knight said:
			
		

> This is the dumbest thread I've ever read.





Thank you very much for your, oh so useful, comment.

Next!

Outsiders are a special case in my campaign, and can breed with anything, since the 'body' is merely something that they are 'wearing', in part designed for that specific task.

Dragons breed with dragons or outsiders, and that is it.

The Auld Grump


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## Umbran (Jun 16, 2005)

the black knight said:
			
		

> This is the dumbest thread I've ever read.




Nah.  I'm pretty sure that title goes to the elven flatulence thread over in over in OT.


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## Aeolius (Jun 16, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Nah.  I'm pretty sure that title goes to the elven flatulence thread over in over in OT.




He must not have gotten wind of that one, yet.


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## Lord Ravinous (Jun 16, 2005)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> Can I have a half-pixie?




LOL, that would be a easy childbirth!


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## Aeolius (Jun 16, 2005)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> Can I have a half-pixie?




What's the other half?


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## Mark (Jun 16, 2005)

Aeolius said:
			
		

> What's the other half?





In your game?  Something wet, I'd imagine.


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## Aeolius (Jun 16, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> In your game?  Something wet, I'd imagine.




Sea Pixes were in Greyhawk Adventures, after all. 

Perhaps a half-fiend pixie....i.e.  Pixie, Styx


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 16, 2005)

Aeolius said:
			
		

> What's the other half?




Well, if you're using HackMaster, it's a fairy.    That's where pixie fairies originally came from.  (And which you'll see even more of in the Adventurer's Guide to Pixie Fairies, in October).  But I digress...

Regarding the D&D crossbreeds, I agree that humans should be the only race that produce half-breeds (with a few rare exceptions when needed and when appropriate).  When you make an exception, there should always be some reason behind it.

For example, the Tel-Amhothlan (half-elf/half-orc) of the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting is connected to the deity known as the Creator of Strife.  Legend has it that this deity used elves to create the race of orcs.   The two races have genetic similarities.  So, there is a very slight chance that orc raping of elves may lead to the birth of these bizarre creatures.

Making a half half-breed (quarterbreed?) would require a very creative player and a very understanding (and rules-aware) DM.     While I wouldn't allow it in anything I might run/write/edit, doesn't bother me if other folks want to do so in their own campaigns.


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## Umbran (Jun 17, 2005)

Lord Ravinous said:
			
		

> LOL, that would be a easy childbirth!




That depends.  A St. Bernard/Chihuahua cross can go two ways.  If the Mom is the smaller one of the two, you're in for trouble.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 17, 2005)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> IMC, there are no female orcs. The child of any orc or half-orc with a non-orc race produces a half-orc. A child of an orc with a half orc or two half-orcs produces a full blooded orc. So the product of the above woulld produce a half-orc as the orc heritage takes over. This is one of the reasons that orcs and half-orcs are so dispised and distrusted even by other humanoid races as they are an intrusive race that must prey upon others to survive (so demands Gruumsch!).
> 
> This is closely related to the spiritual side of my world as there is only one orc god, Gruumsch, and he is male. As below as above, so since there is no female orc god, there can be no female orcs. It's said that Gruumsch has spawned female orcs before, but that he kills them as soon as they are born. This keeps his race strong by not only encouraging them to prey upon other races but also causes other races to fear his offspring, which is what he wants.




Neat! (and yoinked!)


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## LightPhoenix (Jun 17, 2005)

arscott said:
			
		

> Semi-advanced genetics stuff...




That was awesome.  Can I have your babies?


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