# Redclaws Protectors OOC



## Redclaw (Jun 8, 2008)

Here is the OOC thread for the protectors group in my In Defiance of Dragons campaign.

The Protectors
Osric--Dwarf Fighter—Pathfinderq1
Penance—Tiefling Cleric of the Raven Queen—Walking Dad
Valamir—Human Warlock (Star Pact)—EvolutionKB
Immeral--Eladrin Ranger--Zurai
Mirna—Human Wizard—Graf


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## pathfinderq1 (Jun 8, 2008)

*Osric Vonheim- first work-up (in progress)*

Name: Osric Vonheim
Race: Dwarf
Class: Fighter (great weapon build)
Alignment: Good
Deity: Kord

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 16 (14+2 racial)
INT 11
WIS 15 (13 +2 racial)
CHA 10

Level: 1
HP: 31 (15 class +16 CON)/Bloodied 15
Healing surges per day: 12 (9 class +3 CON); 7 HP per surge
Armor class: 16 (10 +6 chainmail)
Fortitude: 15 (10 +3 CON +2 Fighter)
Reflex: 11 (10 +1 DEX)
Will: 12 (10 +2 WIS)
(Note: add +5 to saves vs. poison)

Size: medium
Speed: 5 (even while armored/encumbered)
Vision: low-light

Armor: chainmail (will be looking to upgrade to scale when possible)
Primary weapon: halberd (1d10, reach, +6 to-hit for basic STR attacks)
Secondary weapons: sling, hand ax (may buy a bow later)

Feat: Warrior of the wild (multiclass ranger)
Trained skills: Athletics +7, Endurance +9, Healing +7, +Dungeoneering +9;
Other skills: Insight +2, Perception +2 
Passive Perception: 12
Passive Insight: 12

Racial traits (dwarf):
Cast-iron stomach: +5 to saves vs. poison
Dwarven resilience: Use second wind as a minor action, not standard
Dwarven weapon proficiency: proficient with throwing hammer and warhammer
Encumbered speed: No speed penalty for armor or heavy load
Stand your ground: Forced move 1 less space (if desired), immediate saving throw to resist being knocked prone

Class traits (Fighter):
Combat challenge- Mark target with attack (hit or miss); Marked target has -2 to hit if the attack does not include Osric; Adjacent Marked targets that shift or attack other targets are subject to immediate attack
Combat superiority- +2 to hit with Opportunity attacks, an opponent hit by an Opportunity attack stops moving (if the attack was triggered by movement)
Fighter weapon talent- +1 to hit with two-handed weapons


At-will: Cleave (+6 vs. AC, 1d10+3 and adjacent enemy takes 3 HP)
At-will: Reaping strike (+6 vs. AC, 1d10+3; miss deals 3 HP)
Encounter: Covering strike (+6 vs. AC, 2d10+3 and ally adjacent to target may shift 2 squares)
(+Encounter: Hunter's Quarry, lasts 1 round; choose nearest enemy as quarry, deal +1d6 damage on one attack)
Daily: Villain's menace (+6 vs. AC; hit = 2d10+3 and gain +2 bonus to hit and +4 bonus to damage against target for remainder of encounter; miss= +1 bonus to hit and +2 bonus to damage against target for the rest of the encounter)

At level 2: Feat (Potent challenge), Utility power (Boundless Endurance)
At level 3: Encounter power (Sweeping Blow)
At level 4: +1 STR and WIS, Feat (Toughness)

Equipment (105 lb):
Chain mail armor (40 gp, 40 lb)
Halberd (25 gp, 12 lb)
Sling (1 gp, 0 lb)
20 bullets (1 gp, 5 lb)
Hand ax (x2; 10 gp, 6 lb)
Dagger (1 gp, 1 lb)
Basic adventurers kit (15 gp, 33 lb)
Basic clothing (2 sets- 1 worn, 1 spare; 2 gp, 8 lb)

Spare cash: 4 gp, 10 sp

Basic Background: [sblock]Osric never really knew his father- the older dwarf worked as a guardsman for Evenfall, and he died fighting orcs (Or whatever?) that had been raiding the outlying farms which supported the town.  Osric's mother raised him herself- she worked as a healer, midwife, and herbalist- as such Osric grew up seeing a lot of children around the house, and soon developed a protective instinct to those who were younger or weaker than he was.  And even from a fairly early point, lots of people were younger and weaker than he was- he took an apprenticeship with the local smith early on, and quickly turned into a burly lad, even for a dwarf.  His apprenticeship didn't work out terribly well, though- he was always more interested in wielding weapons than in  making them, and he often practiced for hours after his normal chores were done.  What spare time he had was often spend hanging around with the towns guardsmen- at least until a few years ago.  With only a few professional enforcers in town, competition for the spots was fierce, and some of the men who took the job were less than completely honorable.  Recently, Osric became disillusioned with the local guardsmen, and he has hired out as an independent guard for some of the gold panners who wanted to venture a bit farther out along the river, into dangerous territory.  Just last week, Osric very nearly got himself arrested when he stepped into a dispute between one of the guardsmen and a young woman who was not interested in the man's "attention".  Only the fact that several reputable townsfolk, (including one of the local clergy) witnessed the incident kept things from getting ugly.  Osric has continued to practice with a few other locals about his own age, but he seems quieter and more sullen- obviously the atmosphere in town is wearing on him.[/sblock]

Personality: Osric is a good-hearted fellow- he is hard-working and brave, though a bit gruff, at least around those he doesn't know well.  Behind his stone-faced exterior, he is nice enough, but he is much better at listening than at speaking.  He loves heroic tales, and when among friends he can laugh and tell stories as well as anyone.  He has a strong protective instinct around those who are less able to defend themselves.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 8, 2008)

Penance, Tiefling Cleric (Battle Cleric; Raven Queen)


Penance is a follower of of the Raven Queen, deity of death, fate and winter, but due to his parents devotion to Pelor, he keeps his allegience to himself. 

Appearance:
[sblock]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/sblock]

Personality: Penance seems hard-hearted and reserved to others. But this is only an acceptance of fate and death as part of life that results in a stoic, but not fatalistic worldview. He dutifully follows the Raven Queen's code.
In groups, he is quite adaptable to new ideas, but an unshakable voice of common sense to overly heroic ideas.

Background: Penance has never known his true parents. He only knows the human couple that raised him. Devoted followers of Pelor, they forced him to pray for forgivness of his unclean form and for the (imagined) sins of his true parents. But in his heart, Penance had known that this was wrong. He could not pray to a god who sees the world only in black and white.
But he found faith. Introduced by a pilgrim, he was taught in the ways of the Raven Queen. To her he devoted his heart and soul.
Because of the prejudices in a "town", that only prayed to the sun, that preached of light, but does nothing against the growing darkness and to a nature god that governed the wolves that preyed on their herds, he kept his faith a secret, despite being an ordained cleric of the Dark Queen...

Probable Feat: Raven Queen's Blessing
Probable At-Will Prayers: Righteous brand, Priest’s shield
Probable Encounter Prayers: Healing Strike
Probably Daily Prayers: Avenging Flame

-----------------

Hi everyone. Will we plan our skills, tactics, ect. with the others in mind?

This is the ooc not the RG, isn't it?

Short reminder for myself:

The Protectors
Osric--Dwarf Fighter—Pathfinderq1
Penance—Tiefling Cleric of the Raven Queen—Walking Dad
Valamir—Human Warlock (Star Pact)—EvolutionKB
Immeral--Eladrin Ranger--Zurai
Mirna—Human Wizard—Graf

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4295250&postcount=90


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## pathfinderq1 (Jun 8, 2008)

It is the OOC, and I don't think there is an RG yet- mostly posting my work-up as I get a chance to polish it, and to make the character a bit more transparent (both to those who know him, and to those who may not have the books yet).  Once I'm finished I'll move the details to the RG thread.


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## Redclaw (Jun 8, 2008)

Yes, this is the OOC thread.  My thought is to spend some time discussing characters, and getting to know the system, before putting final versions in the RG.


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## pathfinderq1 (Jun 8, 2008)

*Connections/tactics/builds*

So, given the size of the town, it seems likely that we will at least know of one another before game start.  Are we likely to actually be close compatriots initially?  That is, are we going to start as a group, or be thrown together by the circumstances of whatever is going on at game start?

Osric has done guard work for gold panners and similar folk outside the town walls, and he does practice (in a semi-competitve fashion) with other strong-armed types in town.  He might also have connections to anyone who deals regularly with the town smith (a former apprentice, Osric still helps out around the forge from time to time) or with anyone who deals with the town's healer/herbalist types (one of them is his mother Greta, and he probably knows the others).

From a build standpoint, Osric is a two-handed weapon fighter, mostly focused on his trusty halberd.  Some of his skills, feats, and power choices blur the line toward guardian fighter, reflecting his protective instincts, and this trend is likely to continue during advancement.


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## Zurai (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, that was somewhat of a surprise - a pleasant one, though!

Immeral isn't likely to have had extensive contact with any of this group, but he is likely to at least know of some of them. Mirna, for example, is hard _not_ to know. I also seem to recall from her background that she's done some things out in the wilderness; it's possible that Immeral has shadowed her some of those times to make sure she didn't get into more trouble than she could handle, but I'll leave that up to her player in case he wants that to be a true secret.

Here's Immeral's working statblock:[sblock=Immeral nar Rayya]*Immeral nar Rayya*
*Male Eladrin Ranger 1* 
*Alignment:* Unaligned
*Deity:* Sehanine
*Region:* Evenfall
*Height:* 6'0"
*Weight:* 165 lbs
*Hair:* Silver, worn in an intricate braid interwoven with colorful scraps of fabric, strips of fur, and beads
*Eyes:* Pale jade green
*Skin:* Fair
*Age:* ~60
*XP:* 0

*Str:* 11 (+0)
*Dex:* 18 (+4)
*Con:* 13 (+1)
*Int:* 12 (+1)
*Wis:* 14 (+2)
*Cha:* 12 (+1)

*Hit Points:* 25 *Bloodied:* 12
*Healing Surge:* 6 *Surges per day:* 7
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 6
*Perception:* 19 *Insight:* 12
*Action Points:* 1

*AC* 16 *Fortitude* 12 *Reflex* 14 *Will* 13

*Basic Melee Attack:* +3 (Longsword) *Damage:* 1d8 or 1d8+1
*Basic Ranged Attack:* +6 (Longbow) *Damage:* 1d10+4

*Skills:*

```
Arcana			+8 (+5 Trained, +1 Int, +2 Racial)
Athletics		+5 (+5 Trained, +0 Str)
Endurance		+6 (+5 Trained, +1 Con)
Nature			+7 (+5 Trained, +2 Wis)
Perception		+9 (+5 Trained, +2 Wis, +2 Feat)
Stealth			+9 (+5 Trained, +4 Dex)
```

*Feats:*
Defensive Mobility
Alertness

*Languages:*
Common
Elven

*Class and Racial abilities:* 
+5 Racial bonus to saving throws vs Charm effects
Considered a Fey creature
Trance
Hunter's Quarry
Prime Shot

*Powers:*
Fey Step (Encounter, Move, 5 square teleport)
Nimble Strike (At-Will, Standard, Ranged attack + shift)
Twin Strike (At-Will, Standard, Two weaker ranged attacks)
Fox's Cunning (Encounter, Immediate Reaction, Shift + strong ranged attack)
Hunter's Bear Trap (Daily, Standard, Strong ranged attack + ongoing damage and slow)

*Equipment:*
Leather Armor, 25g, 15 lbs
Longbow, 30g, 3 lbs
60 arrows, 2g, 6 lbs
Longsword, 15g, 4 lbs
Standard adventuring kit, 15g, 33 lbs
Climber's kit, 2g, 11 lbs

*Money:*
11 g[/sblock]
I'm still not set on his 1st level feat. There are several other decent alternatives (Quick Draw, Weapon Focus: Bows, Far Shot is possible, Improved Initiative is always nice...) and I'm even considering picking up Ritual Casting, though that's doubtful since there's 2 other strong ritual casters in the group.


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## Graf (Jun 8, 2008)

I've got more coming but just to chime in: tactics are huge in 4e. WD's been banging that drum in my kots game to little effect but (and others) are right. Especially in group with controllers and strikers. 

The sane thing for a lower level wizard is to take initiate of the faith, toughness or something that makes you less squishy. 
In Mirna's case I'm really loath to do so though. Her background "requires" a bunch of non-wizard trained skills.
that increases pressure on the rest of the group (a squishy with 20ish hit points can go from full to negative hit points in a surprise round)

Also: I'm very keen to go more or less straight orb controller. We may say that she got Gladir to get her a copy of the sleep spell (the potential for pranking is to awesome to resist) but her encounter and daily will be the ice-terain control spells and she'll have thunderwave (?) and cloud of daggers. 
I have some other stuff to do this morning but I'll try to get a spit  ball up today.


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

Not sure how much were' supposed to get linked together. Is the opening adventure going to be something were we get pulled in by each other (x finds out something weird calls their friend y, y thinks it's too dangerous gets z involved, etc) or more of a Phillian and Nosten have gone missing, and only you are brave enough to go find them, type thing?
(In the second one we're not connected too closely to each other necessarily).

Just some quick RP links:

I think that Mirna would probably, lets not say stalk, lets say... follow Valamir around for a while after the death of his family. I don't think she has the level of basic social awareness that would cause  a normal person to "not intrude on someone's grief". [_edit: this is because of the weirdness of the way his family passed, the silver star, everything says "interesting. Not because she stalks people who's families have died._]I don't know if she witnessed him blowing apart his house, but she'd almost certainly have noticed it when she went to notice it.
As well as his sudden facility with hunting... she'd probably figure out some way to get a look at the corpses.

Of course, discovering that he was doing magic she'd really start stalking him, and/or break into his house to find his spellbooks.

Since pranking around the temple is one of her favorite things to do she'd almost certainly have run into Penance. Maybe she witnessed one of his devotions to the Raven Queen and persuaded him into helping her with the "devout girl spouts nonsense" prank? 
(it seems like it might appeal to him -- and he'd be the best sort of cohort in that he's above reproach)

Or maybe he caught her setting up a prank but didn't give her away (so she "owes" him?)


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## Redclaw (Jun 9, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Not sure how much were' supposed to get linked together. Is the opening adventure going to be something were we get pulled in by each other (x finds out something weird calls their friend y, y thinks it's too dangerous gets z involved, etc) or more of a Phillian and Nosten have gone missing, and only you are brave enough to go find them, type thing?
> (In the second one we're not connected too closely to each other necessarily).



Figure on something sort of in between.  You shouldn't all be best friends, but knowing each other will help.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 9, 2008)

Tactics seem to be key in 4E(especially after DMing two TPKs on game day...no time for big details..but here goes...right now I am thinking that Valamir is taking the chain armor prof feat as well as pally multiclass feat.  At level 2 he will take skill training in stealth.  Warlocks are best multiclassing with pally, many of their attacks go off of chr.

Str13 Con14 Dex10 Int 13 Wis8 Chr18(16+2)


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## Zurai (Jun 9, 2008)

It occurs to me that Immeral _is_ trained in Arcana and, furthermore, is a member of a race famed for being arcane scholars. While he's not a spellcaster himself, he's quite familiar with magical theory and (should he take the feat) he'd actually be pretty proficient with Arcane and Nature Rituals. Mirna, being raised by an elven (eladrin?) wizard and raised with encyclopedic knowledge of the history of the elves, might even be one of the people Immeral would talk to if he came across her (or she, him).

Another possible link within the party is Osric's connections with the town apothecaries/herbalists. I would imagine that Immeral could just as easily "hunt" for rare plants and healing substances as he could for beautiful pelts. It's a friend-of-a-friend association, but it's at least a link.

I can't say much about links to Penance or Valamir until I read their backstories again.



Tacticswise, since we have a dual-striker party, I'm considering working Immeral's continued advancement towards a hybrid ranged striker/controller set, with lots of status effects and movement. He really shouldn't be much of a worry for Osric to protect given the extremely mobile nature of the Ranger powers combined with Fey Step; I envision him as a sort of wild card in the battles, sniping from the edges of the battlefield, taking out key enemies, harassing enemies that break free from Osric, and imobilizing/slowing/pushing enemies that threaten Mirna, Valamir, and Penance. He'll also have good multi-target potential with all the 2 and 3 attack powers Rangers get.



On a related note, Redclaw: It occurs to me that I'm going to be going through _a lot_ of arrows. Do we really need to keep track of them, especially considering the PHB's "you don't need to keep track of encumbrance unless you're sure you're going to go over" stance? I could easily spend the last 11 gold on arrows and have ~400 without going over into heavy burden, but that just seems silly and metagamish. The problem is that in any kind of lengthy trip out of town he's going to come real close to running out of a "reasonable" amount of arrows; that 60 may last him 10 fights or so, if I'm lucky.


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

I think it'd be very reasonable for Phillian to have invited Immeral over to talk. At least in the back story I had written up I'd imagined that Phillian liked to 1) speak elvin and 2) talk about arcane matters.

You'd make a great dinner companion on those grounds. Or even if you wouldn't he might feel compelled to invite you over as a matter of politeness (or because he's supposed to guard the town, and Norsten would expect him to know about other elves).

I think we won't get an official opinion on Phillian elf OR eladrin until Redclaw gets the books. Personally I could see him being an eladrin (matches the educated and arcane racial fluff) and just swapping feystep for elvin precision.

*********************

I may be underestimating the amount of control a ranger can get. I've really only seen the class in terms of the pregen. 

Having said that... feystep isn't really as awesome as people seem to think. You spend a move and.... you move five squares. If you follow that up with another move then it's good, but it's not the "make me safe" effect that I think people think it is.
Most monsters can charge 6. Or shift-charge 7, or move-charge 12.
I've seen at least one eladrin ranger who was in a tricky spot teleport 5 squares away, decide "OK, I'm safe now" turn around and start shooting and... get mobbed a second later when the monsters were all over them again. No more feystep, the defender is now 8 squares away and tied down with other monsters (much harder to help).
The whole group then has to try to move out of position to help the striker (who is probably already dead anyway)
I guess what I'm saying is that strikers who think they can solo and think "I don't need defenders" can sometimes open up "second fronts". As an adventuring party with one defender (and one leader) I think that we don't want to be fighting on too many fronts.
Obviously as the wizard, hypothetically I can try to lock down the front. (Use a daily to turn everything into difficult terrain and hope the ranger can work their way out of it before the monsters do).
it'd be fun to try 

Ranged strikers who actually play as strikers, (i.e. stick 10 squares away and prioritize positioning) -may- be a different story. By prioritize positioning I mean keep the defenders between them and the monsters, sacrifice an attack action when necessary to make sure they're staying out of melee, understand that if they're hurt and within charging distance the monsters -will- come after them, etc. are different.
I -haven't- seen anyone who was really willing to play that way yet (though it's early days of course).
If I were you I'd basically always be concealed too (at least in the wilderness). Just hang out in woodland or obscured squares, shoot, shift and you can make a stealth check for free.

Just my two cents. I'm hardly the expert.


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> Tactics seem to be key in 4E(especially after DMing two TPKs on game day...no time for big details..but here goes...right now I am thinking that Valamir is taking the chain armor prof feat as well as pally multiclass feat.  At level 2 he will take skill training in stealth.  Warlocks are best multiclassing with pally, many of their attacks go off of chr.
> 
> Str13 Con14 Dex10 Int 13 Wis8 Chr18(16+2)



 Star Warlock Crusader?
Neat concept!


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## Zurai (Jun 9, 2008)

[sblock=Ranger/ranged striker tactics discussion]







			
				Graf said:
			
		

> I may be underestimating the amount of control a ranger can get. I've really only seen the class in terms of the pregen.



There's not a ton of it - they couldn't replace a wizard by any measure of thinking - but there are quite a few powers that stun, slow, weaken, or push, all of which I consider "control" effects. 


> Having said that... feystep isn't really as awesome as people seem to think. You spend a move and.... you move five squares. If you follow that up with another move then it's good, but it's not the "make me safe" effect that I think people think it is.
> Most monsters can charge 6. Or shift-charge 7, or move-charge 12.
> I've seen at least one eladrin ranger who was in a tricky spot teleport 5 squares away, decide "OK, I'm safe now" turn around and start shooting and... get mobbed a second later when the monsters were all over them again. No more feystep, the defender is now 8 squares away and tied down with other monsters (much harder to help).



Oh, I didn't mean that Fey Step would make him immune to being attacked, or even that any of his abilities would make him immune to being attacked. It's not a "make me safe" ability at all, not unless you're being grappled (which it works great for). It's a positioning ability. It makes terrain _always_ work against the enemies, at least from the Immeral's perspective. No, his escape abilities come from class powers, like Yield Ground and Fox's Cunning (YG automatically cancels a melee attack against him by shifting away, FC does the same thing but gives him a basic attack with a bonus to attack equal to wisdom bonus), both of which are encounter powers.

No, my point in emphasizing his mobility is that he can get to wherever he needs to be, and he can keep away from the enemies in the first place. Even his at-will gives him a free shift in addition to the attack, which means he can effectively attack and move 7 just like an Elf. Most monsters move 6 or slower, which would mean they'd have to run/charge to catch him, which means they are only using their most basic attack.

Also, at least at this point in the game, his AC is actually going to be the same as a chainmail-wearing dwarf fighter  2 from leather armor + 4 from dexterity vs 6 from chainmail. His Fortitude defense will be lower, but his Will should be about the same and his Reflex will be higher. He'll have less HP, fewer and less powerful surges, and no powers that let him heal himself, so he won't be replacing Osric on the front line, but he's not as squishy as a mage.


> I guess what I'm saying is that strikers who think they can solo and think "I don't need defenders" can sometimes open up "second fronts". As an adventuring party with one defender (and one leader) I think that we don't want to be fighting on too many fronts.



Oh, hell no. I'm not suicidal. His plan is to let everything run into polearm range of Osric, let him tangle them all up, and make use of the 3x3 difficult/blocking terrain that a dwarven polearm fighter represents to best advantage  He's not some maverick gunslinger. I think you'll see what I mean when we get some battles with a goodly amount of terrain on them. I can't wait to make some brute chase Immeral across a bunch of difficult terrain only to Fey Step back to the original side and toss a Hunter's Bear Trap on it to slow it and give it a 5 damage ongoing bleed as it trudges back through the difficult terrain 1 square at a time.

_That_ is what I mean by a Controller hybrid. If he can pull off something like that, he's stunned that creature for at least 2 turns, for all intents and purposes. He's taken a potentially dangerous foe out of the battle. Admittedly, he used a Daily to do it in the example, but that's just because he's first level. There are Encounter level powers that do similar things later on.


> Ranged strikers who actually play as strikers, (i.e. stick 10 squares away and prioritize positioning) -may- be a different story. By prioritize positioning I mean keep the defenders between them and the monsters, sacrifice an attack action when necessary to make sure they're staying out of melee, understand that if they're hurt and within charging distance the monsters -will- come after them, etc. are different.



The great thing about Archer Rangers as ranged strikers is that they really don't have to sacrifice attack actions to move. An awful lot of the Ranger attack powers include movement in the attack. I'd say on the order of 25-30% - usually at least one out of every group of encounter or daily attack powers.[/sblock]


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

Zurai said:
			
		

> [sblock=Ranger/ranged striker tactics discussion]
> No, his escape abilities come from class powers, like Yield Ground and Fox's Cunning (YG automatically cancels a melee attack against him by shifting away, FC does the same thing but gives him a basic attack with a bonus to attack equal to wisdom bonus), both of which are encounter powers.[/sblock]



Generally I think we're on the same page. Just wanted to make a quick response on a specific point.
[sblock=Unfortunately]Both Yield Ground and Foxes Cunning are _Immediate Reaction_ powers. They don't  "cancel" anything (I think).

In my (admittedly limited experience) a foe runs up the ranger and smacks the snot out of them. Then you get to use FC and attack/shift a square or shift a square/attack.
Then the rest of the monsters move and pound you into a bloody smear.

Even if they were _Immediate interrupt_ powers you wouldn't necessarily "cancel" anything by shifting (unless the power says so of course). You'd get to interrupt, if you hit you could cancel(? maybe?) but if you miss and shift the monster gets to finish it's movement. And then hit you. 
And then all its friends get to go.

There may be -some- sort of defensive ranger power around that stops attacks, or whatever, but FC ain't it. [/sblock]


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

[sblock=And]FC is particularly bad for ranged fighters because they want to shift so they can use their bowshot.
So, instead of shifting someplace that's out of the way, they wind up shifting some place where they have a clear shot at the guy who just smacked them.

Which, usually means that somebody running at them from behind that guy can just plow right into.

_Furthermore_ if there's a guy in front of you then you know that that square isn't going to be occupied. If you move away, you open up another square, right in front of you, for another monster to step into and hit you again.
Obviously there are ranges or terrain where that's not true, but I see foxes cunning as really being something you'd want as a melee striker.
You're mixing it up with their back line and a solder moves to try to block/attacks you and you can shift to set up an attack against their back line.

The extra shift has a lot of currency in that situation. 
I look forward to you proving me wrong about the utility to a ranged striker. [/sblock]


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

*Mirna Human Wizard*

[sblock=Old chitchat about power selection]The current question absorbing me (other than giving Zurai a hard time of course  ) is: should I take _magic missile_? 
Definitely going with _Scotching Burst_ and _Thunderwave_ and I wanted the _Cloud of Dagger_ powers... but that's a lot of AoO/zone stuff (and _CoD_ does 2 damage, not much to write home about).
And _mm _is actual, honest to goodness damage at long range.

Of course that creates another problem, all three of my wizard at will powers don't have effects, which means... no point in doing orb. (at least until later levels).
Can I retrain to Orb from something else (staff?) at higher levels? With _Icy Terrain_, _Freezing Cloud_ and _Thunderwave _I think she's still a controller...
But _Ray of Frost_ and _Cloud of Daggers_ aren't particularly good, any time that I'd probably want to use _ray of frost _it'd probably be better to move and ready _thunderwave_. (or just freaking run away) you're more likely to plug a bunch of people and or mess up their attack. Miss with _ray of frost _ and they'll run you down for sure.

Even staff isn't that good, it's just a +1 to AC (the special power is keyed off of constitution, of which Mirna has not much). Of course that's better than nothing.

This, would, of course, be less of an issue if I didn't insist on having an int of 20... (my own fault really, I've seen too many clerics that can't hit). with my new constitution I now have a plus one![/sblock]

[sblock=Mirna DMs Block]
Passive Perception 17 ✦ Passive Insight 17
Defenses 15/11/15/15
Hit points 23 Bloodied 11[/sblock]

[sblock=Mirna "Oakspine" Level 1 Human Wizard - Rough Draft]
Initiative +0; Senses Perception +7
HP 23; Bloodied 11; Healing Surge 5 (7/day)
AC 15; Fort 12, Ref 15, Will 15 
Speed 6
Action Points 1
-----------------------------------------------------------------
 *a sour look (standard; at-will) ✦ non-Weapon*
     +0 vs Will; 0 damage and the victim may feel guilty about beating up a defenseless girl
 *Magic Missile (standard; at-will) ✦ Arcane, Force, Implement*
     Range 10 | +4 vs Ref; 2d4+4 damage | Counts as a *basic attack*.
 *Scotching Burst (standard; at-will) ✦ Arcane, Fire, Implement*
     Burst 1 (w/in 10 squares) | +4 vs Ref; 1d6+4 damage
 *Thunderwave (standard; at-will) ✦ Arcane, Thunder, Implement*
Close blast 3 | +4 vs Fort;  *Hit: * all creatures in blast take 1d6+4 damage and are pushed 2 squares
 *Icy Terrain (standard; encounter) ✦ Arcane, Cold, Implement*
      Burst 1 (w/in 10 squares) | +4 vs Ref;  *Hit: * 1d6+4 damage and knocked _prone_.  *Effect:*  Area is difficult terrain until end of Mirna's next turn; dismiss as minor
 *Freezing Cloud (standard; daily) ✦ Arcane, Cold, Implement*
      Burst 2 (w/in 10 squares) | +4 vs Ref;  *Hit:*  1d8+4 damage and knocked _prone_.   *Miss:* Half Damage.  *Effect:*  Could remains until the end of Mirna's next turn any creature that enters the cloud or start's its turn there is subject to another attack; dismiss as minor
OR​  *Sleep (standard; daily) ✦ Arcane, Implement Sleep*
      Burst 2 (w/in 20 squares) | +4 vs Will;  *Hit:*  The target is _slowed _(save ends). If the target fails its first saving throw against this power, the target becomes _unconscious _(save ends).
Miss: The target is _slowed _(save ends). 
 ✦*Rituals✦ 10 minutes*
Animal Messenger (Nature)
Silence (Arcana)
Tenser’s Floating Disk (Arcana)
*Staff of Defense (immediate interrupt; encounter)  ✦ Implement*[/s]Once per encounter as an immediate interrupt, you gain a bonus to defense against one attack equal to +1. You can declare the bonus after the Dungeon Master has already told you the damage total.
*Light (minor; At-will) ✦ Arcane*
     Range 5 | The light fills the target’s square and all squares within 4 squares of it. The light lasts for 5 minutes. Putting out the light is a free action. Only one light at a time.
*Mage Hand (minor; At-will) ✦ Arcane, Conjuration*
     Range 5 | [sblock=Mage Hand]You conjure a spectral, floating hand in an unoccupied square within range. The hand picks up, moves, or manipulates an adjacent object weighing 20 pounds or less and carries it up to 5 squares. If you are holding the object when you use this power, the hand can move the object into a pack, a pouch, a sheath, or a similar container and simultaneously move any one object carried or worn anywhere on your body into your hand.
As a move action, you can move the hand up to 5 squares. As a free action, you can cause the hand to drop an object it is holding, and as a minor action, you can
cause the hand to pick up or manipulate a different object.
*Sustain Minor:* You can sustain the hand indefinitely.
*Special:* You can create only one hand at a time.
[/sblock]
*Prestidigitation (minor; At-will) ✦ Arcane, Conjuration*
     Range 2 | [sblock=Prestidigitation]Use this cantrip to accomplish one of the effects
given below.

✦ Move up to 1 pound of material.
✦ Create a harmless sensory effect, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, faint music, or a strong odor.
✦ Color, clean, or soil items in 1 cubic foot for up to 1 hour.
✦ Instantly light (or snuff out) a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
✦ Chill, warm, or flavor up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
✦ Make a small mark or symbol appear on a surface for up to 1 hour.
✦ Produce out of nothingness a small item or image that exists until the end of your next turn.
✦ Make a small, hand-held item invisible until the end of your next turn.
Nothing you create with this cantrip can deal damage, serve as a weapon or a tool, or hinder another creature’s actions. This cantrip cannot duplicate the effect of any
other power.
*Special:* You can have as many as three prestidigitation effects active at one time.[/sblock]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Alignment Unaligned; Languages Common, Draconic, Elvin
Str 10 (+0) Dex 12 (+1) Con 13 (+1)
Int 18 (+5) Wis 14 (+2) Cha 11 (+0)

Athletics +0_u_, Arcana +10, Bluff +0_u_, Diplomacy +5, Endurance +1_u_, History +10, Insight +7.  Intimidate_u_ +0, Nature +10, Perception +7, Religion_u_ +5, Stealth +6
_u_ Untrained Skill
Gear:  Staff of Defense, ratty collection of crudely bound scrolls (spellbook - made up rather poorly to look like a cookbook about fungi)
_Adventurer's Kit?:  Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and Steel, Belt pouch, 2 sunrods, 10 days of trail rations, 50' of hemp rope, and a Waterskin.
_
xgp

[sblock=Appearance]Mirna is tall and rangy. Her hands and feet seem to be just a little bit bigger than they should be. No one has ever seen her wear a dress, until recently she was invariably dressed in a pair of patched pants and a worn shirt. Recently she's started to wear a flowing shirt that look suspiciously like a robe; putting on airs the townfolk think, since she's not a proper wizard.
For a long time she kept her fine blond hair short, but she's recently started to grow it out and it now hangs down her chin when it's not tied up (which it usually is).
Her high cheekbones, slightly pointed ears and pale blue eyes hint at elvin blood, but only a hint.
She seems to attract dirt, her habits aren't necessarily messy, in fact some of her guardian's fastidiousness seems to have rubbed off on her, but, nevertheless, she's always going about with a smudged face and ink stained fingers.[/sblock]

[sblock=Build Details]
Bonus Feat: Ritual Caster
Feat: Trained Stealth
Bonus Feat: Trained Perception
Human Skill: Trained Bluffhas to be class skill... diplomacy is closest I think.

Desired Feats: Toughness (wizard needs foodtoughness badly), burning blizzard; action surge; durable; human perseverance; expanded spellbook

I do not have the orb, I just spent time typing it up and didn't want to "lose" it.
✦*Orb of Imposition (free; encounter)  ✦ Arcane, Implement* [sblock=Orb]Once per encounter as a free action, you can use your orb to gain one of the following two effects.
You can designate one creature you have cast a wizard spell upon that has an effect that lasts until the subject succeeds on a saving throw. That creature takes a penalty to its saving throws against that effect equal to -2.
You can choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell (such as cloud of daggers or ray of frost) that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.
[/sblock]

[sblock=Equipment]Adventurers Kit, Staff, 60 gp of Alchemical Reagents (arcana ritual components) and 20 gp of Rare Herbs (nature ritual components) 
0gp[/sblock]
[/sblock]

[sblock=Background]Too long, needs its own post... :/
[/sblock][/sblock]


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## Zurai (Jun 9, 2008)

Ooops, you're right about YG and FC being Reactions rather than Interrupts. They won't cancel the attack, just get me away from the attacker to prevent a secondary attack.

You're wrong about Interrupts, though. The rules for Interrupts explicitly say that, if an Interrupt makes the action that triggered it invalid, the triggering action is lost. Using the level 6 Ranger power Weave Through the Fray (Imed Interrupt: When an enemy moves next to you, shift squares = Wis bonus) against an opponent that charges you, for example, you can just shift 2 squares perpendicular to his charge angle and his charge is invalidated, stopping him in the square before he moved adjacent to you and ending his turn (since charges always end the turn after they're resolved). Won't work against reach, but there are Interrupts later on that work against attacks rather than movement.

[sblock=Also]I don't think FC is nearly as useful for a melee character as you seem to think. The LAST thing a melee ranger wants is to be behind enemy lines. He wants to be one square behind and one square to the side of his Defender, tag-teaming some poor Brute or Soldier. Keep in mind that FC requires the enemy to have attacked you, requires you to shift 1 square, then requires you to attack the enemy that triggered FC. You can't use it to get away, as a melee attacker.

Also don't forget that the rules for charging are pretty much identical to 3.5: you have to charge to the nearest space (not nearest available space: nearest _possible_ space. If it's blocked, no charge) and you can't charge through an ally. An archer ranger could actually block a charge through clever use of FC.[/sblock]
That said, I'm reconsidering Fox's Cunning. It was a lot better when I thought it would let me cancel an attack. Evasive Strike (2W+mod damage and 1+Wis shift either before or after the attack) is probably a better option. More damage + more movement.


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## Zurai (Jun 9, 2008)

Magic Missile's ability to be used as a basic ranged attack won't do you any good without a Warlord around. I don't think anyone else gets the ability to grant others basic ranged attack actions, and I don't think Wizards get anything that's <something> + basic ranged attack.

So, at that point, you're comparing 1.5 higher average damage, harder to resist damage, targeting Reflex, and 10 longer range (MM) vs targeting Fortitude and a better secondary effect (RoF).

I think what'd tilt things in MM's favor for me is the longer range, rather than the extra damage. Slow is a very nice effect, but RoF's slow doesn't linger and it's short range. You want Mirna to be nowhere near the action.


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

Just so I have it up somewhere.
[sblock=Mirna's Background]No one in town was particularly happy to see the robed woman come to town one frigid winter night all those years ago. The shimmering runes on her robe were trouble. But the half-elf was frightfully pregnant and dragging along a half frozen young daughter and the worst winter storm of the year was blowing down on the town. So they put her up in the old stable house among the horses. That night saw strange, ominous signs in the sky and around the barn.

It had been a difficult winter already; Norsten and half of the men of the village had traveled out along the road to get a wagon train filled with essential supplies back to the town and been trapped in the heavy snows. 
Phillian had struck down a visiting warlock a few weeks back, with a blast that leveled part of the inn.  Twenty witnesses had seen the elf blow a man (and part of a building) away with a flick of his finger and sharp word. No one wanted to be the one to wake him. (The townsfolk as a whole have a poor appreciation for how little elves sleep).

Nobody wanted to get involved. Nobody wanted to travel to Phillian's tower in the storm to ask him what to do. 
Morning came and the woman was found dead. She'd arranged hay around her daughter in a circle of funny little marks that gave off an unnatural warmth. She'd apparently collapsed from exhaustion and died before she could complete the second circle around herself.
Her child, showing traces of elf in her face, exhausted from the travel, slept peacefully the whole night .

This was magic obviously, and one of the stable boys was sent for the elf. He arranged for a quick burial but could find no-one to take the girl. Lacking Norsten's ability to cajole the townsfolk (they feared him, but they feared the trouble of taking in some strange part-elf witch-girl more) he was forced to take the girl back to his tower.
It was a terrible bother at first. She wouldn't sleep at night unless he sung to her in elvin (even then she was obviously bright and spoke both languages with facility) and spent the day roving through his carefully organized tower like an imp doused in holy water. Research had to be put on hold, rules had to be explained (three times).
Still, Oakspine was not an elf to be trifled with, and by the time that Norsten had gotten the caravan back to the town a few weeks later something like order prevailed over the tower. The girl's knew her name was Mirna (which, improbably came from the elvin word for "dutiful") but at a few years old she understood little more about herself.

The girl was fostered off, of course, once the winter abated. Once Norsten assured people that they'd receive rations from the town storehouse in exchange for taking in the girl many families were happy to oblige. And no-one thought any good would come from having the girl stay with scary old Oakspine (including Oakspine himself of course -- he had research to attend to.)
No one, that is, except Mirna.

It was around this time the town developed the saying "dutiful in elvin" which would, for years, be applied to any situation where something was supposed to be one thing but was really it's opposite. The girl was uncontrollable. She refused to speak common. She pretended not to understand common. If she was outside she wanted to be inside, if she was locked up she'd get out as soon as someone looked away. Skinny and "only a pound heavier than a cat" children twice her age soon feared her teeth (and her habit of extracting revenge at a later date). She seemed to delight in havoc, most famously when she let out 20 pigs and rode around for almost a minute on the fattest one laughing with glee.

And each night, no matter how she was locked up, the girl would manage to get away to Oakspine's tower.
After he caught her dangling from the second window of his house Oakspine took to simply leaving his front door unlocked with a magical light and a bundle of sleeping furs. He explained that "My research isn't disrupted this way, and I don't have to worry about finding some frozen body under my bushes in the morning".
Soon he was leaving hard boiled eggs and bread for morning meal before he went to sleep for the night. "Keeps her from banging about in the morning and disrupting my trance."
Then cheese. "She'll dig it out anyway."
For her part Mirna was as mindful of the elf as she was insolent toward everyone else. She kept his rules, followed his instructions and even stopped fighting (more or less) with the other children. She only obeyed the letter of those things, not the spirit - but Phillian had no problem crafting airtight rules and debating them with great facility in common and elvin - so the effect was much the same.

It was fairly obvious to everyone what had to happen. Mirna got her own little room - a nook really - under the stairway in the entryway to Phillian's little tower. Phillian's food was already made for him and brought by a nearby family, so it the amount was simply increased slightly. The girl finally started to put on weight (Rule: All food is to be eaten before you leave the table.)
And peace descended upon Evenfall again.

In the tower peace was too strong a word. Rules requiring the consumption of all vegetables brought to the table seemed to coincide with a disappearance of spinach from the delivery box. The discovery of a mound of rotting spinach in the cellar led to increased security surrounding the delivery of food. And so forth. Phillian laid rules with the same focus that he applied toward crafting a magical circle and enforced them with the same rigidity. 

The girl had terrible night frights, necessitating a regular nightly pause in research so that Phillian could sing her to sleep.
When she was bored (which was all the time) the girl roved the house. Everything that didn't have a lock had to be warded shut. Interesting looking containers that were warded shut seemed to mysteriously fall from heights and break open. After a little dwarven iron box Phillian kept on his bedstand mysteriously fell from the third story window (it didn't open, but it did have a large dent) Phillian embarked on a desperate course of action.

Aware that humans develop more quickly than elves but unaware of the details Phillian taught the girl to read. Not that he had proper books for children. Phillian simply started on "simple" history texts. Never mind that most of the townsfolk couldn't read something that complex. They were the simplest he had and Phillian made do.
This necessitated a whole new set of rules (To cut down on the constant questions all new words had to be looked up in three different appropriate reference works).
The definition of appropriate reference was debated exhaustively (the cookbook didn't count, nor the book of heraldry). But eventually the flood of questions trickled down to a stream. And from Phillian's standpoint intellectual challenges weren't challenges at all. His house was quiet, the girl was suddenly imminently trackable (she was wherever he left her, surrounded by a mound of books).
Meals were attended promptly and over quickly -- Phillian allowed no reading at the table, if anything he had to struggle to get the girl to chew properly, but the elf over a decade would ultimately prevail and basic table manners would be absorbed (Phillian 's idea of "basic" table manners being rather more developed than a common person's).
When they did speak the girl was vastly more interesting (from Phillian's standpoint); occasionally she'd even say something insightful.  Oakspine found a dinner companion fluent in elvin, even a child, to be somewhat more agreeable to dining alone. He had little opportunity to use even an iota of his vast knowledge during his regular life, it was pleasant to revisit various historical periods and areas in light conversation.

When it got out that the six year old was reading elvin and common her reputation as some sort of strange witch-child was secured.

When Phillian looks back over that four year period he recalls it quite blissfully. His tower was quiet, Mirna was, if not dutiful, then at least not troublesome. His research was finally back on track.

The problems started around her tenth year.
Phillian's library was modest and while he lovingly collected them over the years he freely admitted that no matter how good a book was it could only be read so many times before growing a bit repetitive. Phillian had magical books of course, and various pieces of contraband seized from troublemakers over the years but those were locked away (and in fact never mentioned to the girl -- though she would eventually divine that he had a stash of contraband books the powerful wards denied her access for many years).

So new books were acquired. And devoured.

Around this time Norsten, mindful of the fact that his elvin associate had a tenuous grasp on how quickly time passed for humans, innocently suggested that the girl ought to develop some sort of "useful skill" for her marriage.
After a somewhat pointed discussion about what skills were and were not useful it was agreed that, at the very least, the girl ought to be able to clean things.
Up until this point Phillian had used a cantrips to keep the place in order, but he agreed that he had no idea what humans expected but that Norsten probably did and he presumed that, lacking facility with even the most basic magics, humans would probably clean things and that, if Norsten said that human males expected women to clean things then he probably was right.

Teaching Mirna to clean proved troublesome... Phillian had no idea how to actually do so himself (he understood it involved impliments like brooms and so forth of course, but he'd never done it himself and had no idea how to). Neither did Norsten, who was too busy teach a girl how to clean in any case. Attempts to arrange for someone to teach Mirna were ... politely rebuffed (it was allowed the witch-girl behaved tolerably well under Oakspine's supervision, but none of the townsfolk had any illusions about her tractability -- or any desire to spend time with her in the elvin wizards tower).
Having Mirna learn-by-trying lead to a series of disasters. After spending 30 minutes knee deep in water in the cellar debating whether or not it was cleaner than before ("the water absorbs dust BEFORE it lands" the girl argued). Phillian finally dealt with the situation the only way he knew how. He taught the girl _prestidigitation_, the cantrip he used for cleaning.
The girl absorbed it with the same rapidity she learned everything else.
Soon the tower was spotless and quiet. Phillian could not have been more pleased. He resolved to simply deal with things like this in the future.

Rumors that the which-child was summoning _things_ to do her housework circulated, started by the boy who delivered the food, and who certainly had no magic to allow him to avoid his housework. Norsten quietly despaired. But it was very difficult to reproach Phillian. For starters he wasn't "teaching the girl spells, they're _can-trips_. It's _barely _magic at all."

To this day Phillian can't really recall exactly why he wound up teaching the girl _mage hand_. He'd agreed in the middle of some crucial calculations, and handn't been paying full attention. Not to teach her, per se, just to just show her how it worked; but when he did that she'd picked up the basics of it so quickly that she could soon cast a crude version. Phillian's innate dislike of leaving things "half done" as well as an awareness of the sort of destruction someone with a poorly controlled _mage hand_ cantrip could inflict caused him to finish it off.

Even Phillian admits teaching her _ghost sound_ was not a good idea. But he was at a very sensitive stage of his research, it was the dead of winter, the shipment of books he'd been counting on to tide him through the winter had been delayed by gnoll attack, the sweet yam shortage meant that even with his considerable position in the town he hadn't managed to secure any of Mirna's favorite treat and she'd honestly seemed so sincere.
How was he supposed to know that it wasn't actually true that "human children my age love to imitate animal calls".

And the tower had become so blissfully quiet after he taught her. For the first time in years Mirna was leaving during the day. Sometimes she's stay out all day and into the evenings... Perhaps she was finally making friends and being accepted by the townspeople. Reports of odd happenings always went up in winter, townsfolk staying in doors had more opportunities to work themselves into a fright over nothing. So if that particularly year there seemed to be more and more of them... how was Phillian to know they was something amiss?

He even continued to hold out hope when he heard that the Loghods scarecrow had apparently animated, fired of gouts of green mist from it's eyes, announced it was "Rhixallithen's avatar" and demanded a third of Loghods the sweet yam crop as tribute.

"It could be fey," suggested Norsten diplomatically (or so the guard who was with him says when he tells the story). "Some sort of sweet yam loving fairy perhaps?"

That hope was dashed upon the discovery that Mirna's little nook under the stairway was filled, floor to ceiling, with sweet yams. When the full truth of the avatar scam came to light (no less than 7 assuredly non-possessed animals, scarecrows and spooky looking rock formations had apparently presented themselves to townsfolk who were known for their superstitious natures, succeeding in at least five cases to get the person to bring at least a few sweet yams in tribute) Phillian was forced to take action.

A warded room was created where Mirna was compelled to stay unless she had business elsewhere. Mirna was forced to learn the _light _cantrip while maintaining _prestidigitation _and _mage hand_; effectively forcing her to forget _ghost sound_ (_ghost sound_ being, in Phillian's reckoning, the key component in demanding things without revealing one's identity -- no one is going to be scared of a little girls voice).

Regular demonstrations of facility with all three cantrips were required and much greater efforts were spent implanting morality, ownership and property rights in the girl. Culminating in a massive paper she wrote isolating the key concepts in three different cultures (human, elvin and dragon) which Mirna was forced to read in the public square. Phillian spent a good six months helping the girl and thought the whole thing was rather well done. In fact was confident the girl would be forgiven. He was secretly quite proud of how quickly the girl was mastering draconic. Surely the town would accept her now.

Norsten never really found a way to articulate to the elf that the sight of a twelve year girl reading fluently in three languages from an arcane and complex treatise on property rights was not going to help with the girl's acceptance.

It seemed, to Phillian at least, that the girls behavior was improved significantly by the ordeal. Partially as a result of her maturation she was growing into a pleasant (if slightly acerbic) conversationalist.

Nor was this the end of strange happenings. First there was the "whispering cave" (which revealed secrets but only if you told it secrets first), then the "monster in the pond that was eating livestock" (it left behind peculiar giant claw marks in the mud -- the livestock was later found tied up in the woods), then the "exhortations of the holy statue" (when a particularly naive and pious young lady was encouraged to speak gibberish during religious ceremonies by a statue of the sun god that spoke to her only when she was alone).

In each case it was hard to ignore the fact that the event in question shared certain characteristics. It was overtly supernatural, wildly improbable and seemed to abate or resolve itself instantly upon Phillian's appearance on the scene. Mirna naturally had air-tight alibis during all of the occurrences.
There was much muttering in the town, but in each case it was true that the person who had been tricked had been foolish.
Norsten was not about to encourage witch hunts without solid proof, no real harm had been done and at any rate, he didn't like the idea of trying to put the girl on trial. If the town had given the girls mother shelter when she first arrived then the woman would probably have lived and the girl would have left the town the next day. He had confidence that Phillian would reign the girl in, or she'd grow up eventually.

Between watching Mirna more closely and the spate of reported supernatural occurrences Phillian found his research time impeded, going into her fourteenth winter. His little tower was crammed with books and some sort of re-organization needed to happen. So he grudgingly agreed to allow Mirna to take care of the reorganization. He was barely surprised when it was suggested that some of his contraband books, the books he'd seized from troublemakers and spell casters who'd come to Evenfall and gotten into trouble, would stored in an impressively solid-looking cabinet near her little nook. A cabinet with a weak back that could be easily pulled back and replaced by cunning little hands.
Conveniently, from Phillian's point of view, contained within the contraband were many books that illiterate and spooked townsfolk had turned over to him over the years, but were of no threat to anyone. His love of writing forced him to hang onto them, for their original owners obviously cared little for them, but they were totally harmless and a tremendous waste of  space.
He took the chance to get it out of his workspace with relish.

Mirna was devastated to discover that there wasn't a single book of dark magic, or even gray magic, or even any writing about magic at all in the cabinet. Bored silly and stubborn she decided she was going to read every page until -something- salacious, or at least a little bit naughty, turned up.

Reading from a slim white volume on proper etiquette during social visits written by a woman named Lira l'Ranara a hundred and fifty years ago she made a discovery that would change her life. The book, which was suspiciously well maintained for it's age, reacted strongly to the application of cold immediately after heat . (She found this out after she tried to burn the book to see if it was as durable as it looked -- she found reading about etiquette to be excruciating -- and then dropping the hot thing on the ice block when it singed her fingers).

It turned out that Lady l'Ranara (the book was a combination diary and spellbook) had not actually been nearly so modest as one would have thought. Mirna was thrilled by the salacious details of the lady's various lovers and trysts and of the intrigue amongst the greatest magical clan of the northlands. However that emotion was dwarfed by what she felt about the contents of the second part of the book.
Spells.
Real ones.
Violently illegal, horribly damaging spells. The sort of spells that beautiful wizardesses from previous ages used to best their rivals and claim the hearts of the men they desired (Lady Lira l'Ranara was not one to sit around and let someone else, let alone a man, do things for her).

Heedless of how little need she actually had for spells that could rending her foes limb from limb or freeze them solid Mirna set out to transcribe the spells into a more useful form (quite an undertaking since the whole heating and cooling process revealed the lines only briefly and the arcane characters were tremendously complex). But a year of late nights and she was done. Then all she had to do was master them.

This... she discovered was vastly more difficult. So she turned to the only source of magical knowledge in town, the man she ate meals with.

Phillian reacted to his adopted daughter's renewed (and positively feverishly) interest in matters arcane with an understandable degree of wariness. But, it was honestly his favorite topic of conversation in the world, and he was hard pressed to give up the chance to have a proper discussion of the topic. Their evening chats extended long into the night and crossed many times over into practical application.

This was the source of no little concern to Norsten. 
Not that he didn't like wizards. Per se.
But the idea of Mirna developing any sort of increased capacity for magic did not sit well with him. He'd assuaged the townsfolk more than a few times with assurances that the happenings, which couldn't be directly connected to her, were just pranks. The idea of Phillian's witch-girl knowing actual combat magic was troublesome.

But Phillian assured him that she had no spell book, without which it was simply impossible to learn spells. Even the greatest of wizards couldn't learn magic without their spellbooks. "Like riding a horse without a saddle" he explained. When Norsten pointed out that some people could ride horses without a saddles Phillian promptly explained that "it was certainly then the opposite of horse riding, because, the spellbook is an essential, necessary part of the education process. I still refer to my spell book every day in order to ensure I can call forth my greatest magics."

"So you don't need it for your less great magics now?"

"Well, no. But it takes years to reach that level of mastery."

As the years have dragged on, Norsten, in between governing the town, keeping the peace, trying to keep traffic flowing on the road and bandits off of it has glanced up to see the lights on in the dining room his elvin friend's tower late into the night and noted that years have passed since anything that seems like a prank has happened. That his men have found odd holds blasted in trees, areas of the forest burned clear by fire and strange pools of chilled water, with chunks of ice floating in them.

Phillian assures him that he has only two spell books and they are both kept in his most heavily warded and protected room in his tower, one that Mirna can assuredly not get into. 

But even so Norsten has a bad feeling.[/sblock]


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

You can charge through allies. Insofar as it doesn't say you can't anywhere in the description of charge.

I'm not sure what your point is about "secondary attacks". Stopping them from using an action point? Since, by definition, immediate reactions happen after their last action (and their last action was a standard) they've already attacked.
I suppose you're talking about the solo monsters with "minor action; when you successfuly attack you may make another attack" type powers....
That is interesting... 

I agree that FC's not hot. But I do think that rangers sometimes have to mix it up in the back lines. I just don't think it's possible for a melee character to keep at range all the time. And if you are going to be in melee then, obviously, you want to be on top of their back line fouling up their ranged attackers.
You are right about FC on the attacker. That's what I was aiming for by "set up an attack". I.e. hitting your attacker is just a freebie, the point is that you can then shift deeper into the backfield. 
Now I want to make an ranger twf....

Thanks for the feedback!
I agree about the range for _mm_. As I kinda indicated above I see "within 5 squares of the enemy" = "zone o' death".
Actually wizards can take Opportunity Attacks with _mm_. So even with no warlord you can plug people moving around you or ranged attackers (wizard wars!). -not- the most useful, but adding it to the range and the higher damage output...


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## Zurai (Jun 9, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what your point is about "secondary attacks". Stopping them from using an action point? Since, by definition, immediate reactions happen after their last action (and their last action was a standard) they've already attacked.



No, the example in the PHB specifically says, "If a monster has a power that lets it make two attack rolls against you as a standard action, and the first one hits, you can use an immediate reaction before the nextattack roll". So any enemy with multiple attacks would still be foiled by an immediate reaction to move, which matters more at paragon and epic than at heroic tier. There aren't many multi-attackers in heroic, but they get pretty common later on, especially with solos and elites.



> Actually wizards can take Opportunity Attacks with _mm_.



No. OAs can only be performed with melee basic attacks. First line in the Opportunity Attack description on page 290.


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## Redclaw (Jun 9, 2008)

I really need to get my books so that I can actually participate in this discussion effectively!

I'm actually going to keep Phillian an elf rather than an eladrin.  Even though elves are less arcane than they used to be, I don't picture entire races sticking just to what they're best at.

Graf--based on your writeup of thunderwave, it's the new edition version of burning hands, meaning you need to be between your companions and the enemy.  It seems quite useful, but I know I spent too much time, as well as a few wizardly hit points, trying to set up burning hands.

EvolutionKB--I decided to go with the standard array for stats, so you'll need to shift some of your a bit.  It seems like a really nice trade for you, though.  One of your 13's becomes a 12, and your 8 becomes an 11.

Zurai--Don't forget that Osric's mother is a healer, so you could definitely explain a connection with the dwarven warrior, having shared some hunting stories with him, or something similar.  With Valamir, you could have been the one to discover his home and family after the 'flood', bringing him back to town, or you could have investigated this strange occurrance.  
As for arrows, I'm fine with not worrying too much about it, as long as the group doesn't sell any arrows you recover from enemies, and as long as you 'replenish' your supply whenever you get a chance.  I don't want you running out of arrows in the middle of combat, either.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 9, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> ...
> Since pranking around the temple is one of her favorite things to do she'd almost certainly have run into Penance. Maybe she witnessed one of his devotions to the Raven Queen and persuaded him into helping her with the "devout girl spouts nonsense" prank?
> (it seems like it might appeal to him -- and he'd be the best sort of cohort in that he's above reproach)
> 
> Or maybe he caught her setting up a prank but didn't give her away (so she "owes" him?)



Sound both good to me   



> Ranged strikers who actually play as strikers, (i.e. stick 10 squares away and prioritize positioning) -may- be a different story. By prioritize positioning I mean keep the defenders between them and the monsters, sacrifice an attack action when necessary to make sure they're staying out of melee, understand that if they're hurt and within charging distance the monsters -will- come after them, etc. are different.
> I -haven't- seen anyone who was really willing to play that way yet (though it's early days of course).



I'm playing a warlock in graf's B'n'P KotS game and tried it.

My experience from our first "real" fight:

When you get ambushed, use your actions to regroup!
The ranger and the warlock were far away from the defenders and got really hard. The defenders proceed to charge the enemy, ignoring the positions of the strikers. I tried to get behind the paladin, his next action was to charge another enemy (doing low damage in comparing to a striker) and left the striker in the open. The kobolds basically ignored the defenders as much as they could and went for the controller and defenders.

Basic:
Defenders, do defend (fight and dsamage as you like, but don't ignore the defense of others, please.
Strikers, don't solo!


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## Walking Dad (Jun 9, 2008)

Back to character building:
 Do we have to use the Standard Array method or can we use the Customizing Scores method?

Here are my proposed feats, skills and powers:

[sblock]
Pointbuy!: 22 Standard!
Str: 14
Con: 13
Dex: 10
Int: 11-> 13
Wis: 16
Cha: 12-> 14

Bonus Feat: Ritualist (Gentle Repose, Make Whole)
Probable Feat: Toughness or Weapon Focus (any better idea?)

Skills: Religion, Arcana, Heal, Insight

Probable At-Will Powers: Rigtherous Brand, Sacred Flame
Probable Encounter Powers: Wrathful Thunder
Probably Daily Powers: Guardian of Faith (our second defender    )

HP: 23

AC: 16 (Scale Mail)
Fort: 12
Reflex: 11
Will: 15

Advanced Planning:
Feats:
2 Raven Queen's Blessing
4 Power Attack
6 Alertness
8 Quickdraw
10 

OR

Str: 14
Con: 11
Dex: 10
Int: 13 -> 15
Wis: 16
Cha: 12 -> 14

Bonus Feat: Ritualist (Gentle Repose, Make Whole)
Probable Feat: Initiate of the Arcane
(next level: Hellfire Blood)
Skills: Religion, Arcana, Heal, Insight, Diplomacy

Probable At-Will Powers: Priest’s shield, Sacred Flame
Probable Encounter Powers: Cause Fear, Scorching Burst
Probably Daily Powers: Avenging Flame

HP: 23

AC: 15 (Hide Armor)
Fort: 12
Reflex: 12
Will: 15

Advanced Planning:
Feats:
2 Hellfire Blood
4 Novice Power
6 Skill Training: Stealth or Bluff ?
8 Acolyte Power
10 Adept Power[/sblock]

Opinions?

Question: If I use a two handed weapon, can I use my holy symbol in the same turn (this was possible in 3.x)
Got a no 

Scythe (cool image) or Morningstar vs Mace and free hand

The tiefling - cleric combo seems to be a rather weak one. 
But I like my character concept.


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## Redclaw (Jun 9, 2008)

WD--To answer your question, we're using the standard array, so please use your second set of stats.

Graf--You'll need to change Mirna based on the standard array (16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10).


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

If you promise not to have the monsters attack me I'll take another power. 

Honestly i think that thunderwave is the best power in the game for a 1st level wizard.  

Thunderwave is...
... The only close at-will
... The only area fort at-will (wizards do lists vs ref; forts rarer)
... The only thunder at-will (historically nothing resists sonic)
... The only power that moves foes around (?-certainly the only at-will that does - pushing monsters over cliffs or into hazards is gravy.)
... One of the only area powers that knocks foes prone (less awesome a/out a rogue but it still eats their move next round. 

the problem is really that with one defender and three ranged squishies I will get in "base to base" contact. Shifting and moving is a fools game most of the time. The monsters will Runyon down and you'll pull the group out of position. W/out thunderwave your choices are really hope the group drops everything to kill your attacker or die. Casting a spell that isn't close or melée is dumb. If you're taking the OA you should be move-running.  

Thunderwave pushs 2 and knocks prone. That means they spend a move to stand and they can only charge their speed to get you.  
Move six away and only something with speed 7 can get you. 

And in spots where you can't run thunderwave is your only chance to push monsters back and get the defender into position between you.


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

seriously? Wow. First game I've played in where we weren't allowed to pick our own scores. (since 2ed anyway)

Your call of course.
 Are you concerned people designing their own characters is unbalancing?


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## Zurai (Jun 9, 2008)

I think it's less about designing unbalanced characters as it is giving him (and us) a chance to view characters on as close to a precisely equal footing as possible. The more variables he can eliminate, the easier it is to see what races, classes, and powers need work. If he had some people with 18/14/11/10/10/8 and some with 14/14/14/14/13/13 and some with 16/14/13/12/11/10, etc, it makes it a lot harder to judge.


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## Redclaw (Jun 9, 2008)

Zurai's got the right idea, but there are a few other factors as well.  First of all, it's the first method of stat selection listed in the PHB, so I figure it's worth checking out.  They give the modified point buy system, but it starts with the 'standard array'.  

Secondly, I have had some success with the old 'elite array' in 3.x, using 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and so had no hesitation about this new, slightly more powerful version.  

I also much prefer a more organic set of numbers, where it isn't one uber-important stat maxed and everything else dumped.  Sure it happens once in a while, but it's too overly specialized for me to see that character as a successful hero.  The other standard issue is that every stat comes out even when most people buy their own, and that seems too fabricated to me.  A few odd numbers just feel more right.


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## Graf (Jun 10, 2008)

It's your decision. 
I sense you've made up your mind.
I'll not trouble you with further discussion of it.

Having said that my basic sense of fun forces me to suggest that you reconsider granting some sort of flexibility for character/race combos that aren't optimal (i.e. teifling clerics). 

The pregen in my KotS game is +4 to hit with his attacks when a bad set of rolls strike he's misses for round after round after round.

With your assigned stats Penance is gonna be +3.


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## Redclaw (Jun 10, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> The pregen in my KotS game is +4 to hit with his attacks when a bad set of rolls strike he's misses for round after round after round.
> 
> With your assigned stats Penance is gonna be +3.



Dude, he rolled a 1, a 7 and a 4.  Those wouldn't hit if he had a 20 wis.  The difference is one extra hit out of 20 rolls, not a magical boost that is going to make those misses hits.  I honestly don't think the writers at WOTC intended everyone to have an 18 or better in their primary stat, which is why they suggest the standard array.  If people start missing too often, I'll find some other way to adjust it.

Besides, part of the tactics of 4E is picking which defense to target.  I've seen a number of builds coming in that have all powers targetting AC or Ref.  I would shift that up so that you're going after a probable weakness whenever possible.  If I were fighting kobolds I'd probably try to target fort or will, rather than ref, for example.  That will likely do more for your chances than an extra 2 points on a stat.


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## Graf (Jun 10, 2008)

I've completely accepted your ruling and am re-writing Mirna. But it seems like you want a response so...
[sblock]And if he'd rolled 10s he'd be getting 14s. Penance will average an attack roll of 13.5. Clerics don't have miss or effect powers, and they don't have area of effect attacks (so they don't get multiple dice). If your average attack roll is a miss, and you're playing a cleric that means most rounds your action is ~"do nothing".

What other defenses is he going to target? AC?
I know you're just starting out and you don't know the powers yet but Cleric at-wills *only target those two defenses*.
It's not like sg is a moron for targeting reflex. He targets reflex because that's the only powers that are available to clerics.

And I'm 100% sure that wotc built the game assuming most people in the party would have 18's and 20s in their prime stats. They've built the whole structure to encourage it.
People didn't like MAD and they've rebuilt the system so you don't need to stress about it. A wizard with high int and wis can dump dex and cha and still be perfectly playable. A rogue with a high dex can dump int and have all their skills. (this annoyed me no end with Kil'x/Kason)
You can play whatever you feel like and everyone, basically, will wind up more or less the same already.
Point buy just allows people to put their own touch on a character (or helps a bit if you've made a sub-optimal choice, b/c you can "dump" your bonus stats and get back some of those points to buy up your primary).

The standard array thing is just so newbies can get started without freaking out. "rank these six things in order" is a way to get over the mental hump of picking stats. It turns all the complex math into something a novice can grapple with and overcome.

I appreciate that you've got two groups you want to be completely balanced.
I appreiciate you've taken a conservative view.
I appreciate you're running multiple games (which is very cool and much appreciated) and want to keep things as simple as possible.

I'm not trying to be troublesome. I just felt bad for him because you didn't warn us.

You've made your decision. 
I've accepted it. 
I swear you'll hear no more from me. 
[/sblock]


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## Redclaw (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm going to appreciatively aknowledge your acceptance and respectfully disagree with some of your assumptions.  I hope that you all can find enjoyment in the character creation process using the standard array.


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## Zurai (Jun 10, 2008)

Redclaw said:
			
		

> Besides, part of the tactics of 4E is picking which defense to target.  I've seen a number of builds coming in that have all powers targetting AC or Ref.  I would shift that up so that you're going after a probable weakness whenever possible.



To be fair, about the only classes that get more than 2 choices on a regular basis are Wizards and Warlocks. About 90% of the Ranger powers target AC; I've found one that targets Ref and one that targets Fort. There are no Ref or Fort attacks that I can recall offhand for Rangers before Paragon tier, and no Will attacks at all.

Picking and choosing your target defense isn't really something that can be done for most classes. Everyone gets a couple choices, eventually, but most don't get a wide variety.


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## Redclaw (Jun 10, 2008)

Zurai said:
			
		

> To be fair, about the only classes that get more than 2 choices on a regular basis are Wizards and Warlocks. About 90% of the Ranger powers target AC; I've found one that targets Ref and one that targets Fort. There are no Ref or Fort attacks that I can recall offhand for Rangers before Paragon tier, and no Will attacks at all.
> 
> Picking and choosing your target defense isn't really something that can be done for most classes. Everyone gets a couple choices, eventually, but most don't get a wide variety.



Point taken, but I still am resistant to the idea that one needs an 18 or 20 in the class' primary stat to be an effective combatant.


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## Zurai (Jun 10, 2008)

I think an 18 in the primary stat is assumed, but I'm willing to wait and see how it plays out. I don't think it will break a character so utterly as to make it unplayable, but clerics (in particular) rely very much on hitting; even Mike Mearls has said one of the things they're fixing in the PHB2 is making clerics less reliant on hitting to buff or heal.

Anyway, I'm not trying to change anything here, just pointing out some observations on the system. I'm adopting a "playtest-and-see" approach to the whole edition. There's a lot of stuff I like and a lot of stuff I dislike, so far, but who knows? It may play like a dream.


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## Graf (Jun 10, 2008)

New version of Mirna up. 
(There were some errors as well that I corrected. The new version _should_ be close to 100%.)
Looking forward to playing .



			
				Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Graf said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cool! So we're not "best friends". But we get along enough to have pulled stunts before.
(Given that Mirna has no associates in town in her age group that actually probably makes you her "only friend"... Not that she cares. Or lets on that she cares anyway.)

I -think- we're all connected.
Osric -> herb merchants -> Immeral
---A bit weak, but he's probably known around town for being generally trustworthy. No?
Immeral -> dinners with Phillian -> Mirna
Valadmir -> tended/stalked by -> Mirna (after his accident)
Penance -> pulled pranks with -> Mirna (who "owes" him)


To get back to the tactics strategy/character build conversation: It looks like you can assist a ritual caster without having ritual casting (pg 299) so it doesn't look like we need more than one or two people with ritual caster (Mirna's got Arcane and Nature, she could take religion as well but that's Penance's turf).

But it also says you can copy from other people's ritual books (pg 298) just by paying for the cost of the ritual. So if we pick different rituals then we could all eventually have a pretty decent ritual book (for the cost of some gp).
I took animal messenger (instead of comprehend languages) because it seemed really useful for getting the group together (and it's a fun image -> girl in tower talking to birds) but if Immeral wants to do ritual caster and get that one then I'll go back to comprehend. 
Either seems fun, which fits your character better?

Other questions: 
Right now (in terms of her backstory) Mirna doesn't have a staff, rituals or any "gear" or money. Is that where we should start? Are we going to push the timeline of her life forward a bit so she's got that stuff? Should I do that? If so could I have some guidance on what would be acceptable ways to do so?
When she does get the "staff of defense" she'll have an encounter power (pg 157-158) that lets her increase her AC by one as an immediate interrupt after she sees the damage roll (and I'm assuming the to-hit roll).
Basically my impression is that you can "cancel" on attack vs AC if it's off by x.
(where x=con bonus, in this case 1). Does this match with your interpretation Redclaw? 
If it does, instead of pausing the game (immediate interrupts are making me a bit crazy in KotS) should we just say, "if it applies Mirna uses it".  (So the first time an encounter an attack vs AC misses by 1 she'll "cancel it"). Or would you prefer if I just remind you after the fact?


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## Zurai (Jun 10, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Either seems fun, which fits your character better?



I'd forgotten about being able to assist rituals without having Ritual Casting. I think that's the way to go with Immeral. I'll just pick up the two Ritual skills he doesn't have (Religion and Heal) and he can assist any ritual that needs casting. He'll probably pick up Religion through a Cleric multiclass, and Heal through simple Skill Training. There aren't a lot of Heroic tier feats I want, anyhow. I'm gonna grab Precise Hunter at 4; I think it's a bad feat but it fits the character and I'm willing to give it a shot (pun intended). I'm still not certain about my level 1 feat. May go ahead and swap it to Acolyte of the Faith or whatever the Cleric multi feat is.

I definitely like the concept of Immeral not being a spell/ritual caster himself but being able to support any kind of ritual as a secondary caster. Thanks for suggesting it.


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## Graf (Jun 10, 2008)

Can I say that I love Osric and his Covering strike power .

[sblock=I am a bad person]Thinking about thunderwave last night the -only- thing that makes it problematic is that it could be tricky avoiding hitting the rest of the party.
And I was also thinking that it'd "suck vs dwarves" (since they're resistant to sliding and falling prone).

Of course... Osric's a dwarf. 
With 15 fort he's got a close to 50/50 of not even being hit!

After a particularly tough fight: Oh, gosh, Osric. I had no idea that spell would hit you.... I'm so sorry about that. Does it hurt much? 
Oh, ow. Yeah. I guess it does.
Don't worry I'm sure that Penance can get that stuck back on.[/sblock]


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## Graf (Jun 10, 2008)

Zurai said:
			
		

> I'd forgotten about being able to assist rituals without having Ritual Casting. I think that's the way to go with Immeral. I'll just pick up the two Ritual skills he doesn't have (Religion and Heal) and he can assist any ritual that needs casting. He'll probably pick up Religion through a Cleric multiclass, and Heal through simple Skill Training. There aren't a lot of Heroic tier feats I want, anyhow. I'm gonna grab Precise Hunter at 4; I think it's a bad feat but it fits the character and I'm willing to give it a shot (pun intended). I'm still not certain about my level 1 feat. May go ahead and swap it to Acolyte of the Faith or whatever the Cleric multi feat is.
> 
> I definitely like the concept of Immeral not being a spell/ritual caster himself but being able to support any kind of ritual as a secondary caster. Thanks for suggesting it.



 Yeah, there are some nice touches in the new system. Less "I took this skill, but someone else already has it, so it's totally meaningless."

Multiclassing cleric or warlord is seriously awesome. The extra healing word is fantastic (and it really scales nicely). If it were at -all- possible to imagine Mirna doing that (not having skills she has) I'd be all over it.

[sblock=Feats]
This is a different conversation but I -love- how lame feats (except certain multiclassing feats) are now.

Before you basically -had- to take certain feats, just to stay on the power curve (or to get into the PrCs you needed to stay on the curve). Now you can kind of do whatever you feel like. If I buy Mirna Stealth and she's only got it at +5 (which is more of a level you'd use for roleplaying) then you're not an idiot and hurting your team for missing out on the feat you were supposed to take (or trapped in a class progression that will increasingly take you off the power level).[/sblock]


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 10, 2008)

On my mistaken ability scores in my last post:  I was too lazy to get my book, and went off what another poster on a different board was using(it seemed right, or I justed looked at the scores wrong)  Anyway, I think the standard array will work just fine.

Redclaw, I would also(once you get the books) like your opinion on the ability of warlocks to gain concealment when they move and using it to hide.  It seems to pretty easy to rule(they get concealment, they can hide.  A-->B).  I believe Graf DMed it correctly in the KotS game(I believe he quoted the text there if you want to look now).  I won't be really using it at first level(no skill training), because I'd be horrible at it.  Basically I'd be using to gain combat advantage(+2 att) for my encounter/dailies, once we reached second level and I took skill training.

One thing I've noticed in the rules(playing at the Exp) and specifically for my character:  Difficult terrain and cover/concealment are big deals.  When you do your maps can you try and indicate if any of them are available?  It would just save us a step.

One thing I would like other people opinions on.  Chain armor prof worth it?  From leather to chain is a big jump in AC.  But...with my movement of 5 while wearing chain, if in difficult terrain, I would only be able to move 2 squares, not getting shadow walk and the ability to hide w/o cover/concealment.  Wow...after typing all that, it seems like there is a lot of "ifs".  I think the armor prof is worth it.  Thoughts?

More tactics:  A nasty melee threat that is marked and in melee with the defender gets divine challenged by me.  I use dire radiance.  Now the bad guy has a choice:  Attack the defender(taking damage and a penalty to attack from my divine challenge) or move to attack me(taking a basic attack from the defender, a -2 penalty from the challenge and more damage from dire radiance).

Things I didn't realize with Warlock's Curse:  I have to attack or engage, it doesn't specify a melee attack.  I initially thought that it was melee attack/engage, and had only planned on using it when forced into melee.  Since I can use it with ranged attacks this makes just that much better.  I also initially thought that I had to drop the opponent to get the bonus on the d20 roll, but it doesn't matter who drops the cursed opponent.

Another Curse thing:  You can curse the nearest opponent.  It specifically says what breaks the curse.  The cursed target no longer being the closest enemy is not one of them.  So in theory, every round as long as I am able to target a different enemy each time with my curse, I could potentially gain a large bonus if all the opponents went down in the same round.  Am I reading that correct?

How are we on social skills for skill challenges?  My current plan involves taking bluff and intimidate.  I had planned on picking endurance fromt the pally list, but can get diplomacy if needed.  Arcane and religion were also in my set so I can help with rituals too.

Graf, did you see what intimidate can do?  Zaram can use that skill well, expect it to come up in the near future.


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## Graf (Jun 10, 2008)

If you can fulfill a defender role, even only for a bit, I think that'd help our front line out immensely.

Missed intimidate. Will check it out in a bit. Thanks for the heads up.

I was waiting for "warlock ninja" to come up. Personally I think that, by RAW, it's just about the sickest low-level combo I've seen. (It's not even really a combo, even without stealth trained it's still good. You just need a lucky roll or two).
Naturally Redclaw will rule how Redclaw will rule. My comment is just my interpretation.

I really don't know about chain; I haven't looked seriously at armor at all yet. For the record, my shtick is "making terrain difficult". Both my encounter and my daily do that. Of course, I'm not planning on "shooting" at the PCs. But I'll be putting at least one 3x3 square of Icy Terrain down every fight.

My understanding of curse is that you -can- have multiple curses out. In a given fight you can drop some curses, and, as those guys start to go down you can feystep around like a maniac. Of course, you're using up minors that way (but that's what they're for).

I took diplomacy (had to drop bluff because humans can only get their extra skill from in-class --- it was the only other skill that seemed likely). But only have +5...

I've allowed Divine challenge to work at a distance (i.e. dragonbreath the wyrmpriest -> divine mark). It says attack and doesn't specify the type. Ideally you'd use it rarely as an off tank type thing. Trying to pull a wounded skirmisher or something. A ranged attacker will just blast you and "pulling" a soldier or a brute could be kinda painful.
(Maybe you can defend with the extra AC from chain though?)

I thought that a divine challenge was considered a mark -> doesn't stack with the fighters mark but I could be wrong. If I'm right then you can't put a monster into double jeopardy like that...


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## Zurai (Jun 10, 2008)

I'd probably go all the way up to Scale armor - not immediately, but eventually. Scale is Chain, but better in all respects. Since it doesn't look like you're boosting either Dex or Int much, light armor won't do you much good. Do be aware that your Reflex defense is going to suffer, though.

Immeral, naturally, has no social skills  He's knowledgeable, sneaky, hardy... but not charming by any means. I did read Intimidate earlier today though, and wow. Make a bloodied enemy surrender? Yes please!


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## Zurai (Jun 10, 2008)

BTW, EvolutionKB:

How about, instead of being found by gold panners, Valamir was found by Immeral, like Redclaw suggested? I think that fits both backstories well, and it gives a strong link between the two characters. Immeral wouldn't need to know anything about his powers, but he'd probably routinely check on the people who lived near, but not in, the town, such as Valamir's family.


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## Graf (Jun 10, 2008)

That's a cool idea!

Man, Arcana is pretty cool too. I'm liking Sense the Presence of Magic... Especially being able to do it through walls and floors. It makes even normal people with some arcana skill kind of like mystics...
As a DM I see counting up and down squares (i.e. vertically) to be headache inducing.


Gets to Intimidate...
Reads Intimidate...

Wow. Not much wiggle room. Of course you're rolling vs a DC that's in it's 20s.
That kinda contradicts parts of KotS at least (in the sense that there are a bunch of monsters/individuals who are "fanatical" and "happily (!) fight to the death").


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 10, 2008)

Being found by Immeral sounds good.

Yeah, scale is the way to go once I can get there(level 4 or 6....?)

Yup, looks like you are right Graf, divine challenge is a mark...I was confusing it with the "special" section near the end of the power.  So divine challenging a non-marked target is still good, just not quite as good.(takes a -2 to attack defender and damage from challenge or can shift and move or charge me.  Doing so would cause extra damage then from dire radience.)


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## Redclaw (Jun 10, 2008)

Graf--go ahead and get some gear for Mirna.  I'm sure she's been collecting things she figured Phillian has forgotten he owns (one of the benefits of doing the cleaning).
--I'm not fully convinced on the idea that you would know the attack roll, but you would certainly know damage.  As a DM, I have to let you know how badly hurt she was, but I don't have to give info (and often don't) on the attack roll itself.  I also figure the power would state that she knew the attack role, as that's really the more important one to know for figuring an AC bonus.

EvolutionKB--I'll check up on the concealment question, but at first glance it looks like it should work.
--I definitely plan on labelling the maps with difficult terrain and concealment possibilities.  I'll probably put borders on squares with my excel maps.
--The curse power specifically says you can get multiple bonuses and that they stack.  You can mark as many as you want, and when they fall you get a bonus.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 10, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> But it also says you can copy from other people's ritual books (pg 298) just by paying for the cost of the ritual. So if we pick different rituals then we could all eventually have a pretty decent ritual book (for the cost of some gp).
> I took animal messenger (instead of comprehend languages) because it seemed really useful for getting the group together (and it's a fun image -> girl in tower talking to birds) but if Immeral wants to do ritual caster and get that one then I'll go back to comprehend.
> ...




What else did you take? I took gentle repose and make whole. No need to double up on rituals (we can teach each other)

I will try the standard point array. But to the all equal argument:
Who of the characters in this game and of the pregens didn't had one 18 at least    (fine, the halfling paladin..., but he got two 16)

Any input for me about taking a fighting cleric or the cleric/ multiclass wizard route?

My character so far:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4280895&postcount=26


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## Redclaw (Jun 10, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> I will try the standard point array. But to the all equal argument:
> Who of the characters in this game and of the pregens didn't had one 18 at least    (fine, the halfling paladin..., but he got two 16)
> 
> Any input for me about taking a fighting cleric or the cleric/ multiclass wizard route?



The half-elf cleric fastplay from KotS is +3 with most of his attacks, IIRC, suggesting a 16.
Some race-class combos are more equal than others.  It's a sad fact.  Elves should be better archers than dwarves.  I see no issue with that.  There are other benefits, however, in that the dwarven archer is less likely to get crushed by an enemy who gets past the defender, and your tiefling cleric will have better options for adding intelligence or charisma abilities to his repertoire.  
If, however, you would like to shift over to an elven cleric, I would be fine with that.  They get the wis bonus, and we don't have an elf in the party yet (in either party, actually) so it would still promote the exploration of the rules.

Again, let me say that I really don't think you need an 18 to have a viable character.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks, but I will play a tiefling, style over substance.   

Hm, I start to prefer the multiclassing to wizard route.

I will replace my daily next level to avenging flame to maximise benefits from the Hellfire Blood feat.

Str: 11
Con: 13
Dex: 10
Int: 14 -> 16
Wis: 16
Cha: 12 -> 14

Bonus Feat: Ritualist (Gentle Repose, Make Whole)
Feat: Initiate of the Arcane

Skills:
Passive Insight: 18
Passive Perception: 13

Religion (Int): +8
Arcana (Int): +8
Heal (Wis): +8
Insight (Wis): +8
Diplomacy (Cha): +7

At-Will Powers: Lance of Faith, Sacred Flame
Encounter Powers: Cause Fear, Scorching Burst
Daily Powers: Guardian of Faith (our second defender    )

HP: 25
Surge healing: 6

AC: 16 (hide armor)
Fort: 11
Reflex: 13
Will: 15

Advanced Planning:
Feats:
2 Hellfire Blood
4 Novice Power (Fire Shroud)
6 Skill Training: ?

Equipment:
Standard adventurer’s kit 15 gp 33 lb.:
-Backpack (empty) 2 gp 2 lb.
- Bedroll 1 sp 5 lb.
- Flint and steel 1 gp —
- Pouch, belt (empty) 1 gp 1/2 lb.
- Rations, trail (10 days) 5 gp 10 lb.
- Rope, hempen (50 ft.) 1 gp 10 lb.
- Sunrods (2) 4 gp 2 lb.
- Waterskin 1 gp 4 lb.

Also in Backpack
- Torch (2) 2 sp 2 lb.
- Ritual Components
-- Gentle Repose (2) 20 gp
-- Make Whole 10 gp worth

Holy symbol 10 gp 1 lb.
Morningstar +2 1d10  10 gp 8 lb.
Dagger +3 1d4 5/10 1 gp 1 lb. Light blade Off-hand, light thrown
Hide armor +3 –1  30 gp 25 lb.
96.2
Cash: 3 gp  8 sp
[sblock]
2.5b5*m1*Character Name*Hair:Standard,flatlong2,940018,6A0108,100,100,24,Eyebrows:Standard,hulk,313131,202020,100,100,21,Eyes:Standard,pharoah,B2B2B2,DDDDDD,100,100,20,Nose:Standard,thinbroke,342700,FFFFFF,100,100,28,Mouth:Standard,clenched,6A0108,6A0108,100,100,18,Beard:Standard,longchin,341600,392400,100,100,27,Ears:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,19,Skin:Standard,fraBlank,341200,392400,100,100,6,Mask:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,22,Headgear:Standard,demonhorns,4B4B4B,202020,100,100,23,Undershirt:Standard,long,8D6531,AC814A,100,100,7,Overshirt:FantasyCommon,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,8,Coat:Expansion1,trenchopen,005572,9C9C9C,100,100,26,RightGlove:Standard,wrought,636363,7CC774v,100,100,17,LeftGlove:Standard,wrought,636363,7CC774v,100,100,16,Insignia:Standard,hawk,202020,940018,100,100,25,Neckwear:Expansion1,crystal,390F7C,FFFA9C,100,100,9,Belt:Standard,dagger2,734901,7A7500,100,100,15,Leggings:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,10,Overleggings:Expansion1,capris,434343,005572,100,100,11,Pants:Expansion1,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,14,RightFoot:Standard,floppy,5A3410,724D21,100,100,13,LeftFoot:Standard,floppy,5A3410,724D21,100,100,12,Back:Standard,backpack,5A3410,724D21,100,100,3,Wings:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,4,Tail:Expansion1,fox,392000,110600,100,100,5,Aura:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,2,Companion:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,31,Background:New,mesas,726552,732C00,100,100,1,RightHand:Expansion1,flange2,8C8C8C,726552,100,100,30,LeftHand:Miscellaneous,torch,734901,FFF700,100,100,29,#


[/sblock]


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## Graf (Jun 10, 2008)

Ok. I'll see if I can figure out some Mirna appropriate gear. 
the power's useless with knowing the attack role. I'll see if I can dig some errata or smilar to buttess my point. Otherwise we can just forget about it.


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## Redclaw (Jun 10, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Ok. I'll see if I can figure out some Mirna appropriate gear.
> the power's useless with knowing the attack role. I'll see if I can dig some errata or smilar to buttess my point. Otherwise we can just forget about it.



I think it's more useful if you have a higher con bonus.  The other encounter powers for the orb and wand are pre-roll, so you can't add them in after seeing how you or the enemy does, which seems to back up my reading on it.  If you find the errata, however, I will obviously be glad to adjust my ruling.


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## Redclaw (Jun 11, 2008)

With books in hand, here are a few thoughts on the builds I've seen so far.  Please realize that many of you have had your books longer than I, so you might have seen something I missed.  Let me know about it and I will gladly check it out.    

Zurai--ref defense should be 15 (+4 dex, +1 ranger)

Graf--Mirna gets 7 surges per day (6 +1 con)

Walking Dad--HP should be 25 (12 + con score), which puts your surge value at 6.
--Where is the extra trained skill coming from?  As far as I can tell you should have religion +3 others.


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## Graf (Jun 11, 2008)

Woot! More surges for the win!

Yeah. You're right of course.
The item powers are sorta sub par all round. I'm thinking that the staff gives +1 to AC mostly to discourage wizards from using shields.

I'm more annoyed with the design decision than the ruling. 
I can still hope for errata of course.


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## Graf (Jun 11, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> What else did you take? I took gentle repose and make whole. No need to double up on rituals (we can teach each other)



Neither of those, you're fine. I'm thinking I may just roll over the gp I get into rituals (if the book & rc say I can).



			
				Walking Dad said:
			
		

> I will try the standard point array. But to the all equal argument:
> Who of the characters in this game and of the pregens didn't had one 18 at least    (fine, the halfling paladin..., but he got two 16)



You will be an asset to the team even if your highest score was a 12 .



			
				Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Any input for me about taking a fighting cleric or the cleric/ multiclass wizard route?



-If- you go wizard then I agree that you need an area of effect power (more to hit rolls = greater chance of actually hitting).
You could take Warlord and get another healing ability.  If you find you're having trouble hitting directly then "swapping warlord" later will let you attack-through-the-other-members (i.e. activate the groups base attacks, etc).
Especially if we're facing high AC/ref monsters a warlord power along those lines -might- be a good option. (In however many levels it would take for us to get there...)

My love of _thunderwave _has been mentioned before. In normal circumstances I'll be dropping an area of effect power every round (the only power I have that isn't area is _mm_) but if we see a lot of minions then hittingattacking 5~6 and killing 2~3 is a good action.

While we're talking about it: personally I wouldn't lead with scorching under normal circumstances... it just doesn't do enough damage to be worth it for non-minions. Obviously, as a low level wizard I'll probably wind up using it (the average damage to a group is much higher than mm and thunderwave, obviously, requires being closer than I'd like) but I think that you have better options most of the time...


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## Graf (Jun 11, 2008)

Interestingly... a ritual scroll doesn't let you "copy the ritual". You can use it, without the Ritual Caster feat (!) but you can't copy it.

Instead you buy "access" to ritual books when you want to copy them.

It looks like the book doesn't "bless" the acquisition of rituals at first level. I'll probably just have a a kit, a staff and bunch of arcane & nature ritual components I've picked up when "cleaning the shelves".


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## Redclaw (Jun 11, 2008)

All of those "acquisitions" make sense to me.  She could also have some residuum, picked up from Phillian's stockpile.  That would give you a bit of flexibility in terms of ritual components.


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## Redclaw (Jun 11, 2008)

EvolutionKB--I have to agree with Graf on the concealment-->hiding ruling.  You need concealment to try to hide, so if your power grants you concealment, you can attempt to hide.


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## Graf (Jun 11, 2008)

Redclaw said:
			
		

> All of those "acquisitions" make sense to me.  She could also have some residuum, picked up from Phillian's stockpile.  That would give you a bit of flexibility in terms of ritual components.




50 gp worth?


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## Walking Dad (Jun 11, 2008)

Redclaw said:
			
		

> ...
> Walking Dad--HP should be 25 (12 + con score), which puts your surge value at 6.
> --Where is the extra trained skill coming from?  As far as I can tell you should have religion +3 others.



Oops, you are right about HP. will change it.

Extra skill (Arcana) comes from the 'Initiate of the Arcane' feat




			
				Graf said:
			
		

> Neither of those, you're fine. I'm thinking I may just roll over the gp I get into rituals (if the book & rc say I can).



And we could give each other access for copying   



> You will be an asset to the team even if your highest score was a 12 .



Thanks   



> -If- you go wizard then I agree that you need an area of effect power (more to hit rolls = greater chance of actually hitting).
> You could take Warlord and get another healing ability.  If you find you're having trouble hitting directly then "swapping warlord" later will let you attack-through-the-other-members (i.e. activate the groups base attacks, etc).
> Especially if we're facing high AC/ref monsters a warlord power along those lines -might- be a good option. (In however many levels it would take for us to get there...)



I will look into the warlord stuff and crunch some numbers.
Edit: No, to much str dependence or doing the same as cleric powers.



> My love of _thunderwave _has been mentioned before. In normal circumstances I'll be dropping an area of effect power every round (the only power I have that isn't area is _mm_) but if we see a lot of minions then hittingattacking 5~6 and killing 2~3 is a good action.
> 
> While we're talking about it: personally I wouldn't lead with scorching under normal circumstances... it just doesn't do enough damage to be worth it for non-minions. Obviously, as a low level wizard I'll probably wind up using it (the average damage to a group is much higher than mm and thunderwave, obviously, requires being closer than I'd like) but I think that you have better options most of the time...



I wanted to maximise my benefits from 'Hellfire Blood' next level. I also like the fire thematics


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## Redclaw (Jun 11, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Extra skill (Arcana) comes from the 'Initiate of the Arcane' feat
> 
> I wanted to maximise my benefits from 'Hellfire Blood' next level. I also like the fire thematics



I missed that piece of the feat.  Sorry.

The fire theme certainly fits for a tiefling.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 11, 2008)

Good deal on the hiding.  As things are coming together tactic PC design-wise, I'm getting more and more excited for this game.  I will post a more or less complete character sheet for other player comments later tonight.


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## Zurai (Jun 12, 2008)

Alright, here's Immeral's updated stats and complete Appearance/Personality/Background:
[sblock=Immeral nar Rayya]*Immeral nar Rayya*
*Male Eladrin Ranger 1* 
*Alignment:* Unaligned
*Deity:* Sehanine
*Region:* Evenfall
*Height:* 6'0"
*Weight:* 165 lbs
*Hair:* Silver, worn in an intricate braid interwoven with colorful scraps of fabric, strips of fur, and beads
*Eyes:* Pale jade green
*Skin:* Fair
*Age:* ~60
*XP:* 0

*Str:* 11 (+0)
*Dex:* 18 (+4)
*Con:* 13 (+1)
*Int:* 12 (+1)
*Wis:* 14 (+2)
*Cha:* 12 (+1)

*Hit Points:* 25 *Bloodied:* 12
*Healing Surge:* 6 *Surges per day:* 7
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 6
*Perception:* 19 *Insight:* 12
*Action Points:* 1

*AC* 16 *Fortitude* 12 *Reflex* 15 *Will* 13

*Basic Melee Attack:* +3 (Longsword) *Damage:* 1d8 or 1d8+1
*Basic Ranged Attack:* +6 (Longbow) *Damage:* 1d10+4

*Skills:*

```
Arcana			+8 (+5 Trained, +1 Int, +2 Racial)
Athletics		+5 (+5 Trained, +0 Str)
Endurance		+6 (+5 Trained, +1 Con)
Nature			+7 (+5 Trained, +2 Wis)
Perception		+7 (+5 Trained, +2 Wis)
Religion		+6 (+5 Trained, +1 Int)
Stealth			+9 (+5 Trained, +4 Dex)
```

*Feats:*
Defensive Mobility
Initiate of the Faith

*Languages:*
Common
Elven

*Class and Racial abilities:* 
+5 Racial bonus to saving throws vs Charm effects
Considered a Fey creature
Trance
Hunter's Quarry
Prime Shot

*Powers:*
Nimble Strike (At-Will Attack, Standard, Ranged attack + shift)
Twin Strike (At-Will Attack, Standard, Two weaker ranged attacks)

Evasive Strike (Encounter Attack, Standard, Shift + strong ranged attack)
Fey Step (Encounter Racial, Move, 5 square teleport)

Hunter's Bear Trap (Daily Attack, Standard, Strong ranged attack + ongoing damage and slow)
Healing Word (Daily Class Feature, Standard, Self or ally uses a healing surge and gains surge + 1d6 hp)

*Equipment:*
Leather Armor, 25g, 15 lbs
Longbow, 30g, 3 lbs
60 arrows, 2g, 6 lbs
Longsword, 15g, 4 lbs
Standard adventuring kit, 15g, 33 lbs
Climber's kit, 2g, 11 lbs
Silver Holy Symbol of Sehanine, 10g, 1 lb

*Money:*
1 g
[/sblock]
[sblock=Appearance]Immeral is a tall, thin, but athleticly muscled Eladrin. His long silver hair is arranged in an intricate braid and reaches halfway down his back; intertwined in the braids are a series of leather strips, colored gemstone chips, fur and cloth ribbons, and other assorted colorful decorations. His eyes are a pale jade green shade, almost pastel in hue, and his skin is fair even after weeks in the wilds. He wears clothes of rich green, dark brown, and brilliant blue, often with silver emroidery. His "working clothes" consist of a suit of plain and battered hardened leather armor over dappled brown and green clothing. He carries a simple but functional longsword as well as a beautiful longbow made of a pale silvery wood.[/sblock][sblock=Personality]Immeral is slow to anger, but also slow to befriend. In point of fact, he does not consider himself to have _any_ friends, although he's on a first name basis with many of the townspeople. He isn't standoffish or rude, however; he simply chooses to stay out of the spotlight, stopping by in peoples' lives only long enough to assure himself that nothing is terribly wrong. Still, he has become attached to the community in the decades he's lived near Evenfall, and regularly patrols the wilderness around the town in an attempt to root out and destroy any evil creatures that roost nearby. He gives respect to those who show him respect, but witholds no scorn from those who are overtly rude or disrespectful towards him. People who are indirectly rude or disrespectful are simply ignored and avoided.[/sblock][sblock=Background]Immeral nar Rayya was born in the court of a Ghaele of Spring. It was a marvelous place to grow up; jewel-like flowers bloomed eternally, the trees and grass were shimmering emerald green year round, the brooks and streams that criss-crossed the realm ran clear and clean. The people of the court were a joyous people, spending much time with parties, galas, dances, and balls. Every night candles and _light_ spells would festoon some noble's tree-mansion, and the sound of laughter and merriment could be heard for a league outside its walls. His parents and, indeed, all the Eladrin in the court, were happy people who instilled in Immeral an immense love of life, of laughter, and of knowledge. 

The Spring Court was a marvelous place to grow up in. It was not, however, a marvelous place to mature in. As Immeral reached his mid-teens, he began to grow more and more restless. There was very little change in the court; the same people did the same things every day and every night, the landscape was eternally fixed in a beautiful but static springtime state, and even the animals were idyllic, living in harmony with each other as much as possible thanks to the Ghaele's magic. Immeral yearned, above all, for _change_. So, when he reached his maturity, he said goodbye to his parents and left the Feywild completely, charting his own course in the wilderness of the natural world. His parents, while sad to let him go, acknowledge his need to see new sights and gifted him with an ornate holy symbol of Sehanine and a book of her teachings. It was their hope that faith in a wanderer's God would strengthen him and aid him in his journey.

In the first few years, Immeral wandered through the vast wilds of the natural world without aim. He sought only to experience new things. At dusk when he climbed into the boughs of a tree or sat inside the entrance of a cave or made a tent of thorny bushes, he would pull out the book his parents gave him and read. All through his trance he would read Sehanine's teachings by the light of the stars and moon - as befits a God of the night. What he read therein spoke to the deepest core of his being. Sehanine's message of making your own destiny, following your own path, and avoiding extremes of thought or action were exactly what Immeral himself felt should be his own path through life. When he finished reading the book, he started over again, searching for deeper and more subtle meaning within; he was not disappointed. As he read and re-read the book endlessly in those years, Immeral's faith in Sehanine grew into a devotion fit enough for any priest, cleric, or paladin. He decided that his wanderlust was a divine spark within him, a message from the Goddess Sehanine Moonbow. It was his religious duty to wander the world.

After his epiphany, Immeral set out with a renewed vigor for his aimless wandering. Quickly he realized, however, that perhaps his aimless wandering wasn't so aimless, after all. He found that no matter which direction he set out in at sunrise, his trail always gravitated towards the northeast by the end of the day. Giving in to the inevitible, Immeral followed his calling right up to the town gates of Evenfall - the first town of any significant size he'd encountered since leaving the Spring Court. He didn't stay there long, assuming that whatever he was being guided to was beyond Evenfall. He shortly found out, however, that he was similarly drawn back to the town after leaving its environs for more than a week's travel. Immeral, being trained in the theories of magic if not the practical applications thereof, carefully studied the town, himself, and his surroundings; he could find no magical effect that would cause such a lodestone effect. He was forced to conclude that, for some reason, his path at this time ended in Evenfall.

Once he made the decision to stay, at least for a time, in the area of the human town, Immeral set to work making himself more comfortable. He slipped back into the Feywild and hunted fey animals for their tasty meat and beautiful furs; these he traded in Evenfall for supplies and labor to build himself a small tree-cabin out in the woods. His goods caused quite a stir in town due to their high quality and unnatural beauty; everyone who saw them tried to find out where Immeral had gotten them. Immeral was no fool, however, and realized a good thing when he saw one. Being an exclusive supplier of rare and extraordinary luxuries in a small isolated town would bring with it status and outward, if not necessarily inward, respect. Immeral refused to give anything but extremely cryptic answers to any questions about his goods - "Yes, they're quite un-naturally beautiful, aren't they?" and "I found that one sleeping under the moonlight; I took it as a gift from my Goddess." being two of his common, vague, responses.

Once he settled into life near Evenfall, Immeral began to explore the area, looking for whatever it was that drew him to the area. The first thing he stumbled across, much to his horror, was a den full of slinking goblins. Over two dozen goblins lived in a small cave complex only a day's travel outside of Evenfall. They weren't a direct threat to the town itself, but they could easily overwhelm any of the isolated farms, cabins, or shrines nearby - including his own. He only had to watch as they tortured a rabbit to death to decide that he had no choice: he _had_ to eliminate this blight on the land. He kept careful watch on the den for a week, noting their haphazard patrols, familiarizing himself with each individual goblin's personality, and determining who their leader was. Once he felt he could wait no longer, he ambushed a hunting group of four goblins, burned the corpses, then picked off each, increasingly more frightened, patrol as they were sent after the missing hunting party. By the time the goblins stopped sending their patrols, Immeral had killed half of them.

With a dozen fighting goblins left alive huddling in the cave, Immeral knew that he had to be extremely careful. He couldn't possibly fight all of them at once. He crept up to camp unnoticed and waited for one of the inevitable arguments to spring up inside. Once most of the goblins had joined in the ensuing scuffle, Immeral began his attack. His first two arrows caught the two goblin sentries - who were paying far more attention to the fight inside the cave than threats outside it - through their throats, and the faint gurgles they made as they died went unheard by the squabbling mass inside the cave. Watchers disposed of, Immeral aimed his shots carefully, thinning the ranks from the outside in. By the time the arguing goblins realized they were under attack, there were only 8 left. They grabbed their weapons and howled out of the cave, chasing every imagined attacker. The goblins scattered to the wind in their frenzy to kill their unseen attacker, and Immeral was able to pick each off, one by one.

In the years and decades since, Immeral has never found what draws him to Evenfall. He continues to patrol the wilds nearby, keeping the area relatively clear of danger - though, as young Valamir's family found out, one Eladrin cannot keep out all the evil. Immeral has kept himself separate from most of the townsfolk, although he has accepted occasional invitations to dine with Phillian and discuss history, religion, arcana, and other subjects with him and, later, his "daughter" Mirna. He is also friendly with several of the herbalists and apothecaries in town, although he still confides in no one but himself. With the patience only one of the Elder Races can have, Immeral continues to wait and to search...[/sblock]


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## pathfinderq1 (Jun 12, 2008)

Osric should be about set from a mechanical standpoint- I'll try to get the details of description and so on up by tomorrow.


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## Graf (Jun 12, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> And we could give each other access for copying



Lets definitely RP in that direction.

Kinda irritating that it takes 10 gp to do animal messenger.... otherwise we could totally have an in town communication network...


----------



## Graf (Jun 12, 2008)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> Good deal on the hiding.  As things are coming together tactic PC design-wise, I'm getting more and more excited for this game.  I will post a more or less complete character sheet for other player comments later tonight.




Speaking of warlocks and tactics...
(and not meaning to be a **** in any way shape or form)
Warlocks suck in melee... you have nothing that is not ranged.

If you get stuck you will _not_ be able to fight your way out. Our only option may be for us to "focus fire" on something you've cursed and generate a teleport effect.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 12, 2008)

Graf, no offense taken at all.  I realize warlocks suck at melee.  I do intend at this point to take no part in melee combat.  I do realize that this is 4E however, and that multiple creatures are part of encounters now more than ever.  If we make it to level 4(doubtful, never seen a PbP game have that much advancement), I will have a paladin melee power(based of Chr of course, so I have  a chance to hit).  Hopefully our controller can control, our defender can defend, and us strikers can stay out of harms way.  An ambush, like what happened in KotS would not make good for anybody, especially strikers/controllers.

Sigh...I just finished reading all the classes/powers, now it is time to find my favorite to play.  Hopefully I don't die in these 4E games quickly enough where I have a chance to play them all.  I've always leaned towards melee characters before, though some of my highest level and most fun 3E characters were a wizard, cleric, and druid.  On that note it feels a little weird not playing a cleric in 4E.  In all my previous edition experience, my first character was always a cleric.

Edit: I've got the star pact, so no teleporting.  It gives me a +1 per cursed opponent dropped on a d20 roll by the end of my next turn.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 12, 2008)

[sblock=Character Sheet]Valamir
Human Male Warlock(Star Pact) 1
Alignment:  Good
Deity:  Pelor
Region:  Evenfall
Height:  6'2"
Weight:  190lbs
Hair:  Blonde, short and wavy
Skin:  Tan
Eyes:  Sky Blue
Age:  20
Exp:  0

Str:  13(+1)
Con:  14(+2)
Dex:  12(+1)
Int:  11(+0)
Wis:  10(+0)
Chr:  18(+4)

HP:  26  Bloodied:  13
Healing Surges per day/HP healed per surge:  8/6

Initiative:  +1
Speed:  5
Passive Senses:  Perception/Insight:  10/15
AP:  1

AC:  16  Fortitude:  13  Reflex:  13  Will:  16

Basic Melee attack:  +4 vs AC, Dagger, 1d4+1
Basic Ranged attack:  +4 vs Reflex, Star Blast, 1d10+4

Arcana +5 (Trained +5, +0 Int)
Bluff +9 (Trained +5, +4 Chr)
Diplomacy +9 (Trained +5, +4 Chr) (Bonus from Soldier of the Faith)
Intimidate +9 (Trained +5, +4 Chr)
Insight +5 (Trained +5, +0 Wis) (Bonus from Human class feature)
Religion +5 (Trained +5, +0 Int)

Feats:
Soldier of the Faith
Armor Proficiency:  Chainmail

Languages:
Common, Elven

Racial Abilities:
Extra Trained Skill(already included)
Extra At-Will Power(already included)
Bonus Feat(already included)
Human Defense Bonus(already included)

Class Abilities:

Warlock's Curse:  Minor action once per turn, place on enemy nearest than can be seen.  Lasts until end of encounter.  Once per round after damaging a cursed enemy, an extra 1d6 damage can be applied.  Upon a cursed enemy being reduced to 0 hp, Valamir gains a cumulative +1 bonus to a d20 roll made on his next turn.  If this bonus is not used it is lost.

Prime Shot:  If Valamir is closer to an opponent than any of his allies, he gains +1 on ranged attack rolls against that target.

Shadow Walk:  If Valamir moves more than 3 squares on his turn, he gain concealment(+2 AC) until the end of his next turn.

Powers:

At-Will:
Dire Radiance:  +2 vs Fort; Range 10; 1d6+2 Radiant Damage.  Target takes an additional 1d6+2 damage if moving nearer to Valamir
Eldritch Blast:  +4 vs Reflex; Range 10; 1d10+4 damage.
Eyebite:  +4 vs Will; Range 10; 1d6+4 Psychic Damage and Valamir is invisible to target until the start of his next turn.

Encounter:
Dreadful Word:  +4 vs Will; Range 5; 2d8+4 Psychic Damage and the target takes a -1 to Will defense until the end of Valamir's next turn.
Divine Challenge:  Minor Action; Close Burst 5; Target takes a -2 to attack rolls that doesn't include Valamir as a target.  If the target attacks somebody other than Valamir, the target takes 7 Radiant Damage.

Daily:
Curse of The Dark Dream:  +4 vs Will; Range 10 3d8+4 Psychic Damage and you slide the target 3 squares.  Valamir can sustain as a minor action, whether hit or miss, sliding the target 1 square, with a save ending the effect.

Equipment:

Chainmail
Dagger
Holy Symbol of Pelor
Adventurer's Kit(backpack, bedroll, flint/steel, belt pouch, two sunrods, ten days of trail rations, 50' of hemp rope, waterskin)
34gp[/sblock]

[sblock=Appearance]Valamir is relatively tall and solidly built from a childhood spent swimming and rowing in the river from which his family made their living.  His wavy blonde hair and warm blue eyes are the least of his handsome features.  Even in a small town of Evenfall, his has no shortage of admirers.  His only mark is the unsightly black burn mark on the palm of his left hand, where he grabbed the Silver Star.[/sblock]

[sblock=Personality]Valamir is easygoing and a hard worker.  Trying to do the best he can at everything he does.  Valamir is good at deceiving people, though he does so only to spare their feelings, and is good at reading people.  The death of his family is not something he likes to talk about, he believes somehow he was the cause.  When angry, his blue eyes turn completely black as he draws upon the power of the stars to menace his foes.  He feels he is in debt to Immeral, the Eladrin saved him from drowning, and will defend the ranger at all costs.[/sblock]

[sblock=Background]Valamir was the son of a fisherman, who lived in a house on the banks of the Thornwash. Valamir's father plied his trade on the waters in a small canoe, hooking and netting his catch for later drying and salting. He traded his bounty in Evenfall. 

Valamir's mother assisted his father in preparing the fish for drying as well as doing paintings. She was well known in Evenfall for her watercolors. Her work varied from the beautiful sunsets paintings of the river and it's landscape, to the horrific, a realistic portrait of a recently gutted trout. 

Valamir had two siblings, a brother and sister, twins. They were four years younger than Valamir. They were adept and repairing the nets their father used as well as helping their mother clean the fish. Valamir spent his days carving fishhooks from bits of bone, or collecting crusteaceans from traps laid near shore.

Valamir, as the oldest child had his room in the loft area of their small house. A skylight in the ceiling allowed most of the light in during the day, as well as an outlet for the smoke from their cooking fire. It also provided the family with drinking water. An invention from Phillian, Evenfall's wizard, helped collect rainwater and channel it into storage containers, all the while keeping it relatively dry inside.

When it was cold on clear nights, Valamir often slept beneath the skylight looking at the stars. His father told stories of the constellations, stories of the characters that they represent. Heroes of ages long past.

However, on balmy summer nights, Valamir often snuck outdoors, rowing the canoe out to the middle of the Thornwash. He'd throw a weight down into the water and sleep under the full of sky of stars, dreaming of being a hero like those in the constellations.

On one such fateful night, Valamir slept fitfully, perhaps he was getting to big to lay in the canoe or maybe he was just restless. He passed the night, staring up into the heavens, counting the stars. All of a sudden a shooting star, low and bright, trailed by white flame crossed over the constellation of Hevelka, Slayer of Dragons. It arced towards the horizon, and struck a hill with an loud crash.

Valamir started, he was certain his parents would come to investigate the noise, and find him lounging about in the canoe. But they never came. Valamir looked around nervously, then rowed the canoe towards the opposite shore. He walked for what seemed like hours until he saw the hill, where the fallen star smoked against the coming dawn. As he strode over to it, he saw a small crater had formed around it. The fallen star itself was broken up into pieces. Several black chunks of rock lay around a shiny, perfectly round silver piece of what seemed like metal.

When Valamir picked up the silver piece, it burned his palm, leaving an oddly shaped black mark the size of his palm. It caused him no pain, though at the time it smelled horrible. Valamir shoved the silver star into his pocket and returned home.

Neither parents noticed his absence, for he quickly got to work. When they questioned the burn, he said he had touched the pot in the cooking fire. They seemed satisfied that the burn caused him no discomfort and was not leaking puss or anything of the sort.

In the weeks afterward, things began to change for the child, he discovered when he was angry he could project a silver beam of energy from his burnt hand. He discovered this while gathering crawfish traps. He encountered a nasty snapping turtle that decided to challenge him for taking his meal away. After blasting the shelled one into oblivion, Valamir decided that this ablity could be related to the silver star he carried with him whereever he went. The star blast was only the least of his abilities.

Things then took a turn for the worse. Valamir doesn't remember much of anything from the night, but what he does is horrible. He awoke in his loft to a strange gurgling sound. He rolled to the edge of his bed, to find water a mere few inches lower than his bed. His entire house was flooded! He panicked, and in the process, the silver star fell from his pocket. Valamir dove for the object, and his hand clenched around it, just as it fell beneath the surface of the water. That is all that he remembers.

The next thing he knows, he is being tended to by a young girl in what appeared to be a large room. She said he was found floatingin the river by one of fey. An elf appears, announces himself as Phillian and that they are in his tower in Evenfall. Valamir demands to know where his family is. Phillian states that once his father stopped coming with fish, they investigated. What they found astounded even Phillian. The grass around the family's home was brown and dead. The entire house was waterlogged, as if it had been submerged underwater. Even stranger was that area around the homestead was untouched. His family could not be found

The second thing Valamir asks is where his silver star is. The elf denies knowing of the object(the wizard actually took the object for further study, he recognized magic within it). Valamir, once healthy, returns to the place he called home. He found the stories the elf told were true, and searched the home for his silver star. With his search fruitless, Valamir goes into a rage, nearly bringing the house down around him with his magic, until he realized he didn't need the star to power his magic after all.

After going back to Evenfall, for that was the only place he could go, he found himself adopted by several families. He soon proved his worth, as he brought home game from the surrounding areas, using his ability to fire star light at his targets.

A decade has passed since then, and although only Phillian and his adopted daughter know of his powers, he thinks that others are beginning to catch on, especially the one that saved him from drowning in the river.  Valamir is beginning to wear on the day to day activities in Evenfall.  They are getting to be boring and he secretly wishes something unexpected would happen.  Perhaps then he could be a hero.[/sblock]


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## Walking Dad (Jun 12, 2008)

What do you think of this pic for my character?

[sblock=Pic]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/sblock]


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## Redclaw (Jun 12, 2008)

Most of you look ready to post, so here's the RG 

Graf--Mirna needs to account for her spellbook in her gear value, so you'll have to lose 50 gp worth of ritual components.

Walking Dad--Can you put down some numbers for your skills.  You've identified which are trained, but haven't calculated out the bonuses so far as I can see.


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## Zurai (Jun 12, 2008)

Redclaw said:
			
		

> Graf--Mirna needs to account for her spellbook in her gear value, so you'll have to lose 50 gp worth of ritual components.



The Wizard Class Feature starts with "You possess a spellbook". I think it's intended (as in 3.5) that wizards get their initial spellbook for free. I don't think they have a 50% class tax. Up to you, of course, but I'm pretty sure that's the intent of the rules, at least.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 12, 2008)

Zurai said:
			
		

> The Wizard Class Feature starts with "You possess a spellbook". I think it's intended (as in 3.5) that wizards get their initial spellbook for free. I don't think they have a 50% class tax. Up to you, of course, but I'm pretty sure that's the intent of the rules, at least.



Same for clerics.

I will add numbers to my skills. No comment regarding the picture?


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## Walking Dad (Jun 12, 2008)

Hm, I get doubts, if full multiclassing and maxing a non-cleric ability would be the right way to go for my first "own" character.

I'm just playing around with numbers, my first crunch is already finished.

More Classical Cleric (same Background):

Str: 14
Con: 10
Dex: 13
Int: 11 -> 13
Wis: 16
Cha: 12 -> 14

Bonus Feat: Ritualist (Gentle Repose, Make Whole)
Feat: Astral Fire

Skills:
Passive Insight: 18
Passive Perception: 13

Religion (Int): +6
Arcana (Int): +6
Heal (Wis): +8
Insight (Wis): +8

At-Will Powers: Priest Shield, Sacred Flame
Encounter Powers: Divine Glow
Daily Powers: Guardian of Faith (our second defender    )

HP: 22
Surge healing: 5

AC: 16 (Chainmail)
Fort: 12
Reflex: 11
Will: 15

Advanced Planning:
Feats:
2 Ferocious Rebuke
4 Hellfire Blood
6 Shield Proficiency

Equipment:
Standard adventurer’s kit 15 gp 33 lb.:
Backpack (empty) 2 gp 2 lb.
- Bedroll 1 sp 5 lb.
- Flint and steel 1 gp —
- Pouch, belt (empty) 1 gp 1/2 lb.
- Rations, trail (10 days) 5 gp 10 lb.
- Rope, hempen (50 ft.) 1 gp 10 lb.
- Sunrods (2) 4 gp 2 lb.
- Waterskin 1 gp 4 lb.

Also in Backpack
- Torch (2) 2 sp 2 lb.
- Ritual Components
-- Gentle Repose 10 gp
-- Make Whole 10 gp worth

Holy symbol 10 gp 1 lb.
Morningstar +2 1d10  10 gp 8 lb.
Dagger +3 1d4 5/10 1 gp 1 lb. Light blade Off-hand, light thrown
Chain Mail +3 –1 -1  40 gp 40 lb.
96.2
Cash: 3 gp  8 sp

[sblock]
2.5b5*m1*Character Name*Hair:Standard,flatlong2,940018,6A0108,100,100,24,Eyebrows:Standard,hulk,313131,202020,100,100,21,Eyes:Standard,pharoah,B2B2B2,DDDDDD,100,100,20,Nose:Standard,thinbroke,342700,FFFFFF,100,100,28,Mouth:Standard,clenched,6A0108,6A0108,100,100,18,Beard:Standard,longchin,341600,392400,100,100,27,Ears:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,19,Skin:Expansion1,tiger,341200,392400,100,100,6,Mask:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,22,Headgear:Standard,demonhorns,4B4B4B,202020,100,100,23,Undershirt:Standard,long,8D6531,AC814A,100,100,7,Overshirt:Expansion1,mailHauberk,BDBDBD,B2B2B2,100,100,8,Coat:Expansion1,trenchopen,005572,6A0108,100,100,26,RightGlove:Standard,wrought,005572,6A0108,100,100,17,LeftGlove:Standard,wrought,005572,6A0108,100,100,16,Insignia:Standard,hawk,202020,940018,100,100,25,Neckwear:Expansion1,crystal,390F7C,FFFA9C,100,100,9,Belt:Expansion1,rightCross,734901,7A7500,100,100,15,Leggings:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,10,Overleggings:Expansion1,capris,434343,005572,100,100,11,Pants:Expansion1,mailSkirt,B2B2B2,BDBDBD,100,100,14,RightFoot:Standard,floppy,5A3410,724D21,100,100,13,LeftFoot:Standard,floppy,5A3410,724D21,100,100,12,Back:Standard,backpack,5A3410,724D21,100,100,3,Wings:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,4,Tail:Expansion1,fox,392000,110600,100,100,5,Aura:Expansion1,growth,DD002A,FF0000,100,100,2,Companion:Standard,fraBlank,FFFFFF,FFFFFF,100,100,31,Background:New,mesas,5A3410,734901,100,100,1,RightHand:Expansion1,flange2,8C8C8C,726552,100,100,30,LeftHand:Expansion1,fire,FF0000,5A5A5A,100,100,29,#
[/sblock]


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## Redclaw (Jun 12, 2008)

Zurai said:
			
		

> The Wizard Class Feature starts with "You possess a spellbook". I think it's intended (as in 3.5) that wizards get their initial spellbook for free. I don't think they have a 50% class tax. Up to you, of course, but I'm pretty sure that's the intent of the rules, at least.



I'm actually going to disagree with that, although I'll gladly listen to other ideas.  My reasoning comes from a few things:
1--3.x gave significantly more money to fighter types due to the expense of armor and lack of similar expense for spellcasters.  With everyone getting the same 100 gp at the start, I think the balance is the expense of the wizard's spellbook.

2--the equipment chapter states "your character probably doesn’t walk into a store one
day with a bag of coins—unless you just came into an
inheritance or won a tournament of some sort. Rather,
the items you start with, and any gold you have left
over, might come your way as gifts from family, gear
used during military service, equipment issued by a
patron, or even something you made yourself."  Which suggests that a spellbook that you possess probably counts against that starting gold.

3--The equipment chapter also has a section on adventuring gear (p. 221) that starts with the statement that "You’re assumed to start with basic clothing, and before your first adventure, you should
equip yourself with weapons, armor, and other gear."  It then goes on to describe the standard items one might purchase at the start of one's adventuring career, and the spellbook is on that list.

Again, I could be wrong, but that's how I see it based on what is there.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 12, 2008)

1.) And what about clerics?

If they buy there ritualbook (that is said they possess in the cleric description) and a chainmail, they don't even have enough money to buy a adventurer's kit or a holy symbol.

3.) The eladrin race says that you know one extra skill. The class states that you know x skills. Later chapters don't take all exceptions into account.

It doesn't say: "but , if you are an eladrin, you have one more skill"
nor: "but , if you are a wizard, you start also with a spellbook (as we already said in the class section)"

I don't try to be sarcastic, but only to show you my point of view.


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## Redclaw (Jun 12, 2008)

Honestly, I'm a little torn here.  I understand what you're saying, but I don't know why wizards and clerics would be the only classes to start with "free" equipment.

It doesn't say you start with a spellbook, just that you possess one, the same way that the fighter section assumes you possess a weapon.  I realize that the language is a bit different, but the assumption is there for both.

Additionally, the pre-generated clerics for KotS and the LFR preview games don't possess ritual books.  They don't really have ritual information for those character, so they aren't necessary, but it's still worth noting that it was left off of both clerics' possessions.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 12, 2008)

But the choice of foregoing your armor or a class featue is a hard one for the cleric.
Sounds like only book (5o), chainmail (40) and a holy symbol (10) for my character. I don't want to loose the two free beginning rituals my character has to carry in his book...

Just to show an actual example.


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## Redclaw (Jun 12, 2008)

You're working on the assumption that having chainmail is more important than a weapon...

Like I said, I'm torn.  Give me some time to troll the message boards and think about it.  But can you explain to me why a wizard and a cleric would automatically be worth be worth an extra 50% more than members of any other class?  You're basically saying that you get 150% of the starting wealth that everyone else does.  That seems a bit off to me.


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## Zurai (Jun 12, 2008)

I think the Cleric point is the most telling. It uses the same language - "You possess a ritual book" - and it is impossible to buy a ritual book, any kind of armor, a weapon, a holy symbol, and an adventuring kit with 100g. They cost 50 + 25 minimum + 1 minimum + 10 + 15 = 101 minimum (and that's for leather armor and a club, whereas they're proficient with chainmail and a morningstar which cost 25g more).

Furthermore, it's in a class feature. When a class feature tells you that you have something or can do something, that's (to me) telling you that it's an assumed part of the class. Fighter class features don't mention anything about owning a weapon. You get bonuses if you do, but they don't say "you possess a longsword" or even "you possess a weapon". You can make a brawler fighter if you want and just use improvised weapons.

You really can't make a wizard without a spellbook, though. They're part and parcel of the class. That's why I believe it's intended for them to get their spellbook for free.

EDIT:


			
				Redclaw said:
			
		

> But can you explain to me why a wizard and a cleric would automatically be worth be worth an extra 50% more than members of any other class? You're basically saying that you get 150% of the starting wealth that everyone else does. That seems a bit off to me.



Why should the wizard and the cleric be forced to spend _half of their starting gold_ to gain any benefit at all from a _class feature_ that is universal to all paths of the class, and in the wizard's case, to even use daily powers? That's saying they're worth 50% _less_ than any other character, because they HAVE to have that piece of equipment to even function. It'd be like telling a Ranger, "Yeah, you get +1d6 damage once a round, but only if you take half of your starting cash and burn it as an offering to the Gods!" - and note that spellbooks are a much bigger deal to Wizards than Hunter's Quarry is to Rangers.


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## Zurai (Jun 12, 2008)

For the record, I started a thread in the 4E rules forum about this, both to get insight from other people and to clear this thread of it. The spellbook discussion thread is here.


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## Redclaw (Jun 13, 2008)

Question answered thanks to Zurai's discussion thread.  The spellbook and ritual book are free as class features.


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## Graf (Jun 13, 2008)

Zurai said:
			
		

> For the record, I started a thread in the 4E rules forum about this, both to get insight from other people and to clear this thread of it. The spellbook discussion thread is here.



 Thanks for clearing this up.

With all the playtesting you'd think they'd find things like this.

I think the point of the "extra money" for wizards is -probably- that to use rituals you need to have ritual materials. So, technically, a wizard is "richer" but if you spend it on material components all you get is x number of uses of your class power.
Mirna of course is spending it on boys and beer. (j/k)

Is it still ok for me to take residuum or should I just do that 50gp arcana/30gp nature thing?


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## Graf (Jun 13, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Same for clerics.
> 
> I will add numbers to my skills. No comment regarding the picture?



 You invariably have cool pictures. The rest of us are just jealous. 

Not sure where I'm going to find a picture of a short haired blond wizardess with "over sized hands and feet".


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## Graf (Jun 13, 2008)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> If we make it to level 4(doubtful, never seen a PbP game have that much advancement), I will have a paladin melee power(based of Chr of course, so I have  a chance to hit).



Depressing thought...
I was expecting more and more varied 4e games to show up. There's this one (&KotS). And the one that opened and closed immediately and the eternally on life-support ePoL.

All first level too.
Maybe people are still absorbing?



			
				EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> An ambush, like what happened in KotS would not make good for anybody, especially strikers/controllers.



HA!
My _thunderwave _will protect me.
I laugh in the face of ambush!
HAHAHA!
(what? _thunderwave _ doesn't knock people prone after all... Oh. Uh... in that case.... OOOSSSRRRIIIIIICCC!)

Seriously, I think that if we're ambushed it's daily & AP time. 
KotS (about which I need to stop talking and start posting) is kinda written to challenge, the ambush isn't supposed to be a big encounter, but it's written that way.

A group I know offline has abandoned the "role" system. Two out of three people are playing defenders. They have the best defense, good damage and (if you're a paladin, which they both are) good saves and healing.
We'll see how far they make it.



			
				EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> Sigh...I just finished reading all the classes/powers, now it is time to find my favorite to play.  Hopefully I don't die in these 4E games quickly enough where I have a chance to play them all.  I've always leaned towards melee characters before, though some of my highest level and most fun 3E characters were a wizard, cleric, and druid.  On that note it feels a little weird not playing a cleric in 4E.  In all my previous edition experience, my first character was always a cleric.



The cleric looks... tricky to me. "You hit one guy for small damage and give someone a small bonus"? 
Maybe it'd be a more attractive class if you could really pump your strength.  But I was looking forward to "finally" having a good "casting cleric" possibility. So that's not really appealing to me. 

I like _sacred flame_ the best, if you get a few good rounds of roles you can make a big different in terms of "retarding hit loss" for the tank. But it's a bit "small ball" compared to wizards or even strikers.

I skimmed down and it seems like you're stuck with the same at-wills for "forever", no?. And the most attractive powers (utilities, etc) are ones are healing abilities. I confess to having hope for something like semi-regular "flamestrike that buffs".
_Flamestrike _and _Purifying Flame_ are both powerful, but they're dailies... (and they don't buff of course)

Which makes sense in the cleric=WoW priest sense, but not in the "you do cool stuff AND that causes buffing!" sense.



			
				EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> Edit: I've got the star pact, so no teleporting.  It gives me a +1 per cursed opponent dropped on a d20 roll by the end of my next turn.



I wasn't so impressed by teleporting when I first saw it... but it's got a certain sort of appeal compared to +1 on x roll once.
Still I suppose you could apply it toward a saving throw, which isn't shabby.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 13, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> You invariably have cool pictures. The rest of us are just jealous.
> 
> Not sure where I'm going to find a picture of a short haired blond wizardess with "over sized hands and feet".



I made this one myself, using Hero Machine   , but I doubt there is a 'big hands' option.


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## Redclaw (Jun 13, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Is it still ok for me to take residuum or should I just do that 50gp arcana/30gp nature thing?



I think it still makes sense with Mirna's backstory.  Phillian might get suspicious if 80 gp worth of residuum disappears, however, so why don't we say you can get 40 gp worth.


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## Zurai (Jun 13, 2008)

By the way, I'm getting really excited for this game. Can't wait for it to start! You slackers need to write up your characters and put em in the Rogue's Gallery!


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## Walking Dad (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm still awaiting comments about the two different builds. What would be better for the group:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4284061&postcount=52

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4289730&postcount=75

before I post in the RG
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=230605


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## Zurai (Jun 14, 2008)

I can't really put my finger on why, but I like the first build (wizard multiclass) a little better.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 14, 2008)

I am torn between the two.  It may not be the case, but the second build seems better in melee(which I think we need).  The first has the at will that gives an ally +2 to attack.  That is a good idea with two strikers in the party.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 14, 2008)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> I am torn between the two.  It may not be the case, but the second build seems better in melee(which I think we need).  The first has the at will that gives an ally +2 to attack.  That is a good idea with two strikers in the party.



I could change sacred flame to lance of faith without problems.
Good point about more melee characters needed.

Votes so far:

Wizard multi: Zurai

Melee (pure): EvolutionKB


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## Redclaw (Jun 14, 2008)

Still waiting on three entries to the RG. I'm hoping to get things started tomorrow evening, but I need your characters finalized first.

WD, I know you're waiting on a vote for your final decision, but get it up there as soon as you make up your mind, okay?


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## pathfinderq1 (Jun 14, 2008)

(Osric's write-up- moved to RG)
[sblock=Character Sheet]Osric Vonheim
Dwarven male Fighter 1 (great weapon build)
Alignment:  Good
Deity:  Kord
Region:  Evenfall
Height: 4'8" 
Weight:  195 lbs
Hair: black 
Skin:  deeply tanned
Eyes: brown 
Age:  19
Exp:  0

Str:  16 (+3)
Con:  16 (+3)
Dex:  12 (+1)
Int:  11 (+0)
Wis:  15 (+2)
Chr:  10 (+0)

HP:  31  Bloodied:  15
Healing Surges per day/HP healed per surge:  12/7

Initiative:  +1
Speed:  5 (Even in heavy armor or with a heavy load)
Senses:  Low-light vision; passive Perception/Insight:  12/12
AP:  1

AC:  16  Fortitude:  15  Reflex:  11  Will:  12

Basic Melee attack:  +6 vs AC, halberd, 1d10+3, (reach 2)
Basic Ranged attack:  +3 vs AC, Sling, 1d6+1, range 10/20

Skills: 
+7 Athletics (+5 trained, +3 stat, -1 armor)
+9 Dungeoneering (Bonus, +5 trained, +2 WIS +2 racial)
+9 Endurance (+5 trained, +3 CON,+2 racial, -1 armor)
+7 Healing (+5 trained, +2 WIS)

Feats:
Warrior of the wild

Languages:
Common, Dwarven

Racial Abilities (Dwarf):
Cast-iron stomach: +5 to saves vs. poison
Dwarven resilience: Use second wind as a minor action, not standard
Dwarven weapon proficiency: proficient with throwing hammer and warhammer
Encumbered speed: No speed penalty for armor or heavy load
Stand your ground: Forced move 1 less space (if desired), immediate saving throw to resist being knocked prone


Class Abilities (fighter):
Combat challenge- Mark target with attack (hit or miss); Marked target has -2 to hit if the attack does not include Osric; Adjacent Marked targets that shift or attack other targets are subject to immediate attack
Combat superiority- +2 to hit with Opportunity attacks, an opponent hit by an Opportunity attack stops moving (if the attack was triggered by movement)
Fighter weapon talent- +1 to hit with two-handed weapons



Powers (numbers assume he is using his halberd):
At-will: Cleave (+6 vs. AC, 1d10+3 and adjacent enemy takes 3 HP)
At-will: Reaping strike (+6 vs. AC, 1d10+3; miss deals 3 HP)
Encounter: Covering strike (+6 vs. AC, 2d10+3 and ally adjacent to target may shift 2 squares)
(+Encounter: Hunter's Quarry, lasts 1 round; choose nearest enemy as quarry, deal +1d6 damage on one attack)
Daily: Villain's menace (+6 vs. AC; hit = 2d10+3 and gain +2 bonus to hit and +4 bonus to damage against target for remainder of encounter; miss= +1 bonus to hit and +2 bonus to damage against target for the rest of the encounter)




Equipment (105 lb):
-Chainmail Armor
-Halberd
-Hand axe
-Sling
-20 sling bullets
-Dagger
-Adventurer's Kit(backpack, bedroll, flint/steel, belt pouch, two sunrods, ten days of trail rations, 50' of hemp rope, waterskin)
-Basic clothing (2 sets- 1 worn, 1 in pack)
Spare cash (4gp, 10 sp)[/sblock]

[sblock=Appearance](Coming soon)
[/sblock]

[sblock=Personality]Osric is a good-hearted fellow- he is hard-working and brave, though a bit gruff, at least around those he doesn't know well. Behind his stone-faced exterior, he is nice enough, but he is much better at listening than at speaking. He loves heroic tales, and when among friends he can laugh and tell stories as well as anyone. He has a strong protective instinct around those who are less able to defend themselves.[/sblock]

[sblock=Background] Osric never really knew his father- the older dwarf worked as a guardsman for Evenfall, and he died fighting orcs (Or whatever?) that had been raiding the outlying farms which supported the town. Osric's mother raised him herself- she worked as a healer, midwife, and herbalist- as such Osric grew up seeing a lot of children around the house, and soon developed a protective instinct to those who were younger or weaker than he was. And even from a fairly early point, lots of people were younger and weaker than he was- he took an apprenticeship with the local smith early on, and quickly turned into a burly lad, even for a dwarf. His apprenticeship didn't work out terribly well, though- he was always more interested in wielding weapons than in making them, and he often practiced for hours after his normal chores were done. What spare time he had was often spend hanging around with the towns guardsmen- at least until a few years ago. With only a few professional enforcers in town, competition for the spots was fierce, and some of the men who took the job were less than completely honorable. Recently, Osric became disillusioned with the local guardsmen, and he has hired out as an independent guard for some of the gold panners who wanted to venture a bit farther out along the river, into dangerous territory. Just last week, Osric very nearly got himself arrested when he stepped into a dispute between one of the guardsmen and a young woman who was not interested in the man's "attention". Only the fact that several reputable townsfolk, (including one of the local clergy) witnessed the incident kept things from getting ugly. Osric has continued to practice with a few other locals about his own age, but he seems quieter and more sullen- obviously the atmosphere in town is wearing on him.[/sblock]


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## Walking Dad (Jun 14, 2008)

I will post my character in the RG in 3h at the latest. I hope I will get one more vote till then.


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## pathfinderq1 (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm inclined to vote for the second one.  As noted, it looks somewhat more effective in melee, and since we have two ranged strikers and a wizard, we probably want someone other than Osric who can fight close in. 

If nothing else, the cleric and warlock can be one fire team and Mirna and Osric a second team, with Immeral out at range.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 14, 2008)

pathfinderq1 said:
			
		

> I'm inclined to vote for the second one.  As noted, it looks somewhat more effective in melee, and since we have two ranged strikers and a wizard, we probably want someone other than Osric who can fight close in.
> 
> If nothing else, the cleric and warlock can be one fire team and Mirna and Osric a second team, with Immeral out at range.



Ok, I will post the second one (with a change from sacred flame to lance of faith) in the RG


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 15, 2008)

Very good, now we just wait on Graf.  If indeed the game starts tomorrow, I won't be able to post until tomorrow night or Monday morning, late evening.  Basegball game and work.


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## Graf (Jun 15, 2008)

Sorry... the baby's sick so I've been playing "the human bed"
Will try to get on a proper computer so I cancopy her over tonight.


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## Graf (Jun 15, 2008)

Got a sec. Final is up. Sorry for the hold up.


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## Redclaw (Jun 15, 2008)

No worries, I understand about the baby factor.  Mine is 2 now, so a little less demanding, but he still has his moments.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 15, 2008)

Redclaw said:
			
		

> No worries, I understand about the baby factor.  Mine is 2 now, so a little less demanding, but he still has his moments.



Hey, I got two!

One will be two soon and the other 4 later this year


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## Redclaw (Jun 15, 2008)

IC thread is up.  I hope you all enjoy!

Protectors' IC


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## Redclaw (Jun 21, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> OOC: Are we really supposed to risk failure in rolls we are not proficient in? Penance has no proficiency in any of the check you mentioned. I haven't realized that the skill challenge had only so few rounds, too. I thought the elf would only go after we failed...
> 
> Sorry, still new to the mechanics.



No worries about learning the mechanics, WD.  Here are a few excerpts from the DMG about skill challenges:



> To deal with a skill challenge, the player characters make skill checks to accumulate a number of successful skill uses before they rack up too many failures.
> 
> Certain skills lead to the natural solutions to the problem the challenge presents.  These should serve as the primary skills in the challenge.
> 
> ...




So, yes and no.  I expect you to be involved in any skill challenge that comes along, including some that will rely on skills you don't excell at.  If you can creatively come up with a use of a skill you are trained in, you can use it, but the DC will be higher.  

As for the rounds, it depends on the complexity.  For this one, I made it complexity 2, which meant you needed 6 successes before you got 3 failures.  The numbers are a 2:1, depending on how long the DM wants the challenge to take.  

After each roll, or set of rolls, I indicated your success, just like I would in a combat round, letting you know if your attacks had hit or missed.  Phillian didn't actually do anything in the challenge except react to (or defend against) your skill checks.


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## Graf (Jun 21, 2008)

I agree strongly with what redclaw's said in ic. 
I confess to wanting to win (who likes to "lose" right?) but I think losing added a lot more to the story.

Mirna, an unwanted orphan, probably wants to go on adventures at least partially b/c Pjillian's created a space where she feels safe and protected.  
I wrote that in to the backstory (along w/ Mirna lying about her degree of proficinency); redclaw was respecting that by making this a challenge.

And, I think rp skill challenges are about more than "showing up and rolling high".  I didnt post about it (mostly b/c I think Mirna was too caught up in the moment to have thought about it yet) but sticking up for her (esp. people who did so repeatedly after enduring Phillian's tongue) probably improved (or further improved) Mirna's thinking of them. 
And what ever was said to Phillian was said to Phillian. Even if you didnt get "a success" saying "I/we'll protect her" and then (should the opportunity arise later) doing so is potentially important in story terms. 

And I think 3 "rounds" was plenty; I'm glad we got the chance to rp it but minor stuff is minor stuff. You have to roll and play through. Mirna will still be able to participate just under different conditions.


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## Redclaw (Jun 21, 2008)

And your reception on your return to town will likely be a little different...


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## Zurai (Jun 21, 2008)

The problems I have with skill challenges and forced participation are twofold:

One, Immeral isn't a social character. It would, in the most literal sense, Out Of Character for him to get into a protracted social "challenge" of most sorts, at least at the present time; that's why I had him withdraw from this one (BTW, Osric: Immeral never even offered to help with carrying the trader, let alone started to do it!  He had already left at that point). It would be similarly OOC for other characters to be nosing in on areas where they're intentionally ignorant. Forcing participation is a method of railroading and I very much dislike that the DMG includes it as an implied rule for Skill Challenges.

Two, failure is failure, regardless of how severe it is. Directly contributing to failure isn't fun. Being _forced_ to directly contribute to failure is about as far from fun as I can imagine.



Also, the math of the Skill Challenge system has a lot of flaws. You have to be very precise in how you set it up or it becomes either far too difficult or far too easy for the party to succeed in the challenge. Even changing the target DC by 1 can have a dramatic (20+ percentage points) shift in the probability of success/failure. If you just follow the chart in the DMG, the chance of success for an average party is something like 20%.


That all said, I trust Redclaw not to make the game unfun.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 22, 2008)

I think it is just a new mechanic we have to used to.

About anyone has to participate: What if the group split? Not possible in 4e? Or can the skill challenges be adjusted at the fly?
I'm not totally up to date about this mechanic, but trust redclaw entirely to mange it!


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## Graf (Jun 22, 2008)

I interpreted redclaw's comments about participation as being more more general. 

There will be social challenges that we all will have to deal with.  If we come back to town and norsten wants to arrest us then we're all involved. we can't just have the person with+10 make all the rolls (any more than we could have that person make all the attack rolls in a fight.
If norsten thinks one of us is acting skechy we all get hauled in. 

If someone can't hit a diplo roll in a diplo oriented challenge then those who can need to shift the conflict to an area where they can make a roll.
it's like protecting the controller or sending the rogue across the rickety bridge  first to tie off the rope so the wizard and fighter can make it. 

This was just a practice run... Most of the challenges will not be as prosaic...


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## Redclaw (Jun 22, 2008)

I think the other reason behind the forced participation is that every character should have some ability in the different areas.  If the party needs to scale a cliff to get to the big fight, it isn't a good idea for one character to have an 8 strength and not train in atheletics.  I see it as a way to keep someone from completely dumping a certain subset of skills.  The good piece is that you usually have some leeway as to which skill you're going to use.  It doesn't have to be diplomacy, as you can use bluff or intimidate, or one of the knowledge skills.  That way you can play to your own strengths.  

I saw it as more of a way to make the skills actually mean something without making a series of encounters that exclude half or more of the party.  I know in Red Hand of Doom, there were moments where my 'face' fighter did most of the work, with a little help from our cleric, while the antisocial rogue and wizard hung back and did nothing.  That's a lot of pressure to put on a couple of party members, and not a lot of fun for the rest.

I will do my best to be flexible, but I think the other half is that the days of the "I have no social skills" barbarian or fighter are gone, as are the "I can't climb the stairs" wizard.  Everyone needs to be able to do something useful in every situation, and with the flexibility of the skill challenge, everyone should be able to do so.


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## Zurai (Jun 22, 2008)

Redclaw said:
			
		

> I think the other half is that the days of the "I have no social skills" barbarian or fighter are gone...



The problem with that is it dictates characters and character builds. Rangers can't get social skills as trained skills, for example, without using feats on them or being an Eladrin. It's not only that I saw Immeral as an 'outsider' ... the rules of the game pretty well dictated that to me. You might have a good point if there were no restrictions on which skills each class could pick, but there are - very severe restrictions in most cases. So, instead of the stated goal of getting everyone involved in the fun, it instead forces people to make choices that are counter-intuitive and counter-productive just so they don't feel they're going to let the entire group down on the off chance there's a skill challenge involving skills they aren't allowed to pick by their class.


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## Redclaw (Jun 22, 2008)

Yeah.  I see your point.  I guess you could try to be a bit more devious in ideas for other skills.  Perception works in some cases where the atheletic skills are important (spying a place to hide instead of trying to jump across a gap between buildings) and I would bet Insight would work in most social situations (I try to get a read on what Phillian's biggest concern or argument is.)  If that doesn't work, Mirna's History use was fine, etc.


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## Zurai (Jun 22, 2008)

Oh, I know. Like I said, I trust you to not screw us over without good reason  I'm just ranting a bit about the flaws in the system.


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## Zurai (Jun 22, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Since Mirna is trying to follow the group from further back (and Immeral has't pointed her out to the rest of the group) is it reasonable for me to say that she's at 30G...?



I think Redclaw said she caught up to us at the edge of town, didn't he? I thought you were with the group. Immeral would have told you to catch up anyway as soon as he spotted you - and since his perception beats your stealth, that's kinda a foregone conclusion unless you were actively trying to hide from him.


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## Graf (Jun 22, 2008)

that was what I was asking in my prior post. Mirna is definitely trying not to overtly flaunt the instructions. 
Since you didnt say anything I'd assumed..


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## Graf (Jun 22, 2008)

I suppose I should say that I didnt see Mirna just coming back like nothing had happened but that at the same time I feel like we've spent a lot of time rping will-she-come won't-she-come. 

Following along behind is fast and easy. 
Rewinding to roleplay Immeral calling her out and rejoining the group now seems a bit disruptive...


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## Redclaw (Jun 22, 2008)

I think your post about Immeral seeing her covered it, which is why I jumped to the battle.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 22, 2008)

Although, the success rates of the skill challenges can be harsh(from what I've read), I also think "failure" can mean more interesting story.  Don't forget on skill challenges you can also aid another(only DC10) to give somebody else a +2.  Opening up all skills leads to creativity by the players.  To use the climb the cliff example:  Wizard without athletics can use knowledge nature to say:  "Don't stick your piton there, that layer of stone is soft and won't hold well!"(aid another, climb).


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## Walking Dad (Jun 22, 2008)

Redclaw said:
			
		

> ...
> I will do my best to be flexible, but I think the other half is that the days of the "I have no social skills" barbarian or fighter are gone, as are the "I can't climb the stairs" wizard.  Everyone needs to be able to do something useful in every situation, and with the flexibility of the skill challenge, everyone should be able to do so.




But where should I do my 10 (assuming standard array) if I want to play a wizard? Con and totally screw HP (being in the class with the least hp. Dex? No wand wizards and using my area atteacks everytime after all others acted? Int? Come on! Wis? No orb wizards and some of the better feats, heal and perception. Cha? Being screwed in socila skill challenges.
So, do I have to use my first level feat to aquire skill training in athletics?

BTW: The old 'can't climb the stairs' was the fighter in heav plate trying balance checks.


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## Redclaw (Jun 22, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> BTW: The old 'can't climb the stairs' was the fighter in heav plate trying balance checks.



My fighters usually had trouble crossing bridges or patches of ice, personally.    

As for the dump stat, that's one reason the standard array doesn't have an 8 anymore, and it's also why they combined so many skills, IMHO.  Now instead of climb, balance, swim, jump, tumble you've got atheletics and acrobatics, and you can usually use either one.  Back to the cliff scenario, the fighter might use atheletics to pull himself up, rock-climbing style while they rogue use acrobatics to jump from perch to perch.  I guess what I would say is that in most cases people should be trying to train in either Atheletics or Acrobatics, and to pick up at least one social skill.  If not, you just need to be creative with using your other skills.  It puts the cleric, ranger, warlock and wizard at a disadvantage, as they don't have access to one group or the other, but a single feat overcomes it.  Besides, you're likely to have some points in Dex or Str, and in Cha, Wis (Insight) or Int (knowledges) to make sure that you're not at a +0 for all of the rolls.

Regardless, I agree with Zurai and the rest of you that the system isn't perfect.  However, I kind of like the possibilities, and I definitely prefer it to "All right Sir Smites-a-lot, you take the diplomacy checks and we'll go sit in the corner".


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## Walking Dad (Jun 22, 2008)

Redclaw said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Regardless, I agree with Zurai and the rest of you that the system isn't perfect.  However, I kind of like the possibilities, and I definitely prefer it to "All right Sir Smites-a-lot, you take the diplomacy checks and we'll go sit in the corner".




Just include skills we have in the list, so we don't have the penality to use them.


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## Redclaw (Jun 22, 2008)

Sorry, I'm not going to make sure that everyone has one of the primary skills for each challenge.  It wouldn't be much of a challenge then, would it?  That's like saying, "My fighter uses a flaming greatsword, so make sure we don't fight any creatures that are immune to fire damage."    

The challenge lies in overcoming the penalty, or working around it.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 22, 2008)

Note the   

But is reasonable to include some more skills to be used. Maybe arcane to tell Phillian about the merits of unconventionel learning trips.


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## Redclaw (Jun 22, 2008)

That's where the creativity comes into play.  The DMG suggests that there should be a few (roughly 3) primary skills that are most tied into the challenge.  Others are a  bit harder to use effectively, with higher DCs, but still viable.  I thought about this challenge, and bluff and diplomacy seemed natural fits, then I added Nature as the goal was to get Phillian to okay her journey into the forest.  Arcana could have worked, but it didn't seem as clear a fit, so it wasn't one of the primaries.

In general, I will try to privide a bit of variety in the primary skills, so that it's not just socials or physicals, but always know that you can try something not listed, as long as you come up with a good way to make it fit.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 22, 2008)

Little rules nitpick: They should really changed bluff and diplomacy to persuasion

curious situation: If you don't believe my honest advice, I have to lie to you to make you trust me.

Trained in bluff but not diplomacy.


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## Graf (Jun 23, 2008)

I think it's probably to avoid having an "uber" social skill.
I did want to train Mirna in Athletics too... but I figured that she's out of shape compared with her tomboy youth with all the reading (that was going to be my 2nd level feat).

Personally I don't think it's strange that they made it harder to dump social skills; some games I've seen struggle with the "outcast band of misanthrope loners make for poor roleplaying" thing mostly b/c everyone's cha is 8.


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## Graf (Jun 23, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> But where should I do my 10 (assuming standard array) if I want to play a wizard?



Dex. Definitely Dex.


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## Redclaw (Jun 23, 2008)

[sblock=Graf] I understand that you're trying to stay in character by following behind, and I am trying to work with you on that, but please try to respect the start areas in the future.  The idea here was that the group wouldn't see the kobolds until they got to that spot, and while Mirna has moved close enough to see the fire beetle and one of the kobolds, she's still very much unable to see most of the action  (see the attached map).  You're using your knowledge of the map, which she doesn't have, to plan your action.  

She can see all of the squares that her burst will affect, and she has line of effect to the chosen square, so I'll allow it, but separating yourself from the group, and going beyond the setup guidelines that I gave, makes things a bit more challenging for your friendly neighborhood DM.   [/sblock]


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## Graf (Jun 24, 2008)

Understood. 
Obliged. 
Won't happen again!


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## Graf (Jun 24, 2008)

Just for reference (since I think that FB 1&2 and KS2 are _prone_... they can still take OA's on Penance if he runs (  ), but at -2.)
[sblock=Prone]
You grant combat advantage to enemies making
melee attacks against you.
You get a +2 bonus to all defenses against ranged
attacks from nonadjacent enemies.
You’re lying on the ground. (If you’re flying, you safely
descend a distance equal to your fly speed. If you
don’t reach the ground, you fall.)
You take a –2 penalty to attack rolls.
[/sblock]


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## Redclaw (Jun 24, 2008)

Actually, the wording of the Covering Strike ability lacks any reference to the target in terms of the shifting ability.  It reads as if the fighter's attack shields the ally from everyone, allowing him to shift without any Opportunity Attacks from anyone.


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## Zurai (Jun 24, 2008)

Shifts normally don't provoke OAs, regardless of their source. They're the 4E version of the 5 foot step, except you can go more than 5 feet at a time with them in a lot of cases.


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## Redclaw (Jun 24, 2008)

[sblock=EvolutionKB] My initial read on Shadow Walk is that you ahve to end up at least three squares away from where you started.  As a result, your up, over, over approach wouldn't actually give you concealment, as you wind up only two squares away from your starting point.  I'm not sure what the official word is, so if you find some errata to the contrary, please let me know. [/sblock]


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## Walking Dad (Jun 24, 2008)

At everybody, thanks for saving Penance, I was a bit over enthusiastic I fear.


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## Redclaw (Jun 24, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> At everybody, thanks for saving Penance, I was a bit over enthusiastic I fear.



Is Penance going to save himself?  You're the only one we're waiting on.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 24, 2008)

Sorry, I was sick. First my son throw up all night and two days later my daughter and me. I will update now.


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## Zurai (Jun 24, 2008)

WD:

Using your Healing Word (while an _excellent_ idea and I don't want you changing that at all) won't give you +2 to defenses. That's from Second Wind, which is its own separate ability. You don't get the defense bonus from using a healing surge, you get it from using Second Wind.


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## Redclaw (Jun 24, 2008)

I just posted that in the IC thread, Zurai.    

And no worries about the posting WD, I just saw that you'd posted here and not in the IC.  I had that same experience about three months ago.  First my son, then me.  It was horrible.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 24, 2008)

Sorry, thought the bonus of defense being part of the healing surge not of second wind, my bad..
I will edit my post.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 24, 2008)

On shadow walk:

I'll offer my opinion.  "Away" is a difficult word to interpret I think.  It stems from the scout base class in 3.5 who after moving 10' gained a bonus to damage/AC.  They later errata/FAQ the skirmish ability to say that the scout had to move away from their current position, they could't move around and end up where they began.

"Away" is my opinion is a square that is not the same as the square held at the beginning of the turn and the warlock must move closer or further away from their prior position, and not necessarily at least 3 squares away from their prior position in any direction.

By moving up-over-over(with increasing or static distance from my starting position, I never decreased the distance moved relative to my starting position), I still moved 3 squares away from my starting square, even though you cannot directly count a 3 square difference between starting and ending square.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 24, 2008)

There is no penality for being prone in melee? So the best option when being surrounded is to fall down???

Edit: I just saw it gives the attacker combat advantage in melee (p 280), never mind.


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## Redclaw (Jun 24, 2008)

I understand, but I had the same ruling on the scout feature.  I just never liked the idea of someone taking the long way from point a to b just to kick in a class feature.  If there's a reason to move around  something, that's fine, but if you can take the diagonal, it only counts as one square of movement.


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## Redclaw (Jun 29, 2008)

Hey all, I should be able to post a good amount tomorrow, and maybe a little on Monday morning, but I'm headed cross country in a gigantic U-Haul starting Monday afternoon (as soon as we finish selling the house).  As a result, I probably won't be able to advance the story much until Friday or Saturday.  I hope you all can bear with me.

We should be able to wrap this first combat up tomorrow.  I'm just waiting on Osric's action to post the next round.


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## Walking Dad (Jul 15, 2008)

Marching order:

Penance would like to be second or third in the marching order.


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## Zurai (Jul 15, 2008)

Immeral would be vanguard/scout, likely being a good 50-100 feet ahead of the rest of the party. He's by far the most mobile in the group, he's a wilderness type, and he's kind of a loner in the first place.


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## Graf (Jul 16, 2008)

Mirna will probably try to be with Immeral at first, and then sulk when she has to stay behind.

(what? dungeons? tactics? huh?)


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## Redclaw (Jul 16, 2008)

And where in the back 4 would she put herself?


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## Zurai (Jul 16, 2008)

Off-topic for the moment, but I had a stray thought given Immeral's multiclass:

Spellcasting is prohibited within the town, except for licensed practioners. Does that include divine spellcasting, or just arcane? In other words, do Immeral and Penance need to hide their magic?


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## Redclaw (Jul 16, 2008)

It's not so much hide it as avoid using it within town limits.  Norsten is paranoid that the dragon will think he is trying to prepare to fight it, so he is intent on keeping spellcasting to a minimum inside the town.  If you use spells in the forest, he won't care, but if you walk into Evenfall all make flashy displays of your abilities he will likely not be amused.


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## pathfinderq1 (Jul 16, 2008)

At least for the initial marching, Osric will take rear guard.  Once we get underground, or into regular fighting, that may change.


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## Graf (Jul 27, 2008)

Kinda wanted to wait and give someone else a chAnce to go but... If nobody else has done anything Mirna will continue to act unilaterally on Monday.


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## Redclaw (Aug 8, 2008)

hey all.  I'm sorry that I let this drag so much.  I've been moving my family across country and dealing with all of the included stress.  Anyway, I'm ready to get back into this game if you're all still around.  Can you sound off and let me know who's still here?


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## Walking Dad (Aug 8, 2008)

Still here and ready to play!


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## Graf (Aug 8, 2008)

ditto!


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## pathfinderq1 (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm still here.


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## Redclaw (Aug 10, 2008)

That leaves Evo (who is still on his honeymoon) and Zurai to chime in.  I'll go on the assumption that Evo will rejoin us when he's done celebrating his nuptials, and that's enough to continue with.  Awesome.  I'll start us up again.


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## EvolutionKB (Aug 11, 2008)

I'm back!


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## Walking Dad (Aug 16, 2008)

I wait in the IC thread just for Osric's movement to make best use of Penance's 'Divine Glow' power.


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## Graf (Sep 9, 2008)

So I'm curious if there is anything we can do as players to help/get this game going...?


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## Walking Dad (Sep 9, 2008)

I just need to know Osric's new position before I post...


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## Redclaw (Sep 9, 2008)

Nudging me like this and letting me know you're still interested is a good start.  I got a bit frustrated with three people disappearing from the two games, and I fear that allowed me to give in to all of the RL chaos going on (moving, job hunting, etc.)  I'll try to get an update going tonight.

As an aside, how would you all feel about merging with the other group?  They lost their defender and controller, so they have two strikers and a leader left.  With Zurai AWOL, that would put the group at 7: 3 strikers, 2 leaders 1 defender and 1 controller.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 9, 2008)

Sounds good to me, even with preferring 2 defenders over 3 strikers...


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## pathfinderq1 (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm up for joining forces with the other group, if that would keep the game going.  Any word on the status of the Eyes of the Lich Queen game- is it dead?

In game, Osric will end up at G7- WD, hopefully that will be good enough for Penance to act...


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## Graf (Sep 10, 2008)

I am all for joining with the other group.


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 10, 2008)

As am I.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 10, 2008)

I just saw that I already posted an action for this round


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 11, 2008)

If we are concerned about party balance, I would volunteer to take up a different role.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 11, 2008)

If Osric's OA hits, the kobold cannot move (Combat Superiority).


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 11, 2008)

Indeed, I hope he does.  Then he should be able to finish off the kobold on his turn, leaving the rest of us to concentrate on that last one.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 12, 2008)

The roll is up. Redclaw, can you tell me if the kobold is still up on my turn? My action depends on it.


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