# [OT, Star Wars] The Vader/droid connection...



## PenguinKing (May 19, 2002)

Maybe someone can help me out here.  I need to know if there are any scenes in the original _Star Wars_ trilogy where,

a) Vader actually lays eyes on either R2D2 or C3P0, or

b) Aforesaid droids may be reasonably inferred to be within his line of sight.

Yes, you've probably guessed what this relates to - the old "how could Anakin just forget about the droids?" objection.  Thing is, I can't bring to mind a single instance where Vader actually got a good look at either of them.  Am I missing something here?

 - Sir Bob.


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## Phoenix8008 (May 19, 2002)

Lets see here, In Ep IV, he may have seen them at a distance as they crossed the Landing bay in the Death Star to enter the Millenium Falcon. Later he blasted R2 in the trench run sequence. Neither of these are conclusive. 

In Ep V, he gets close to 3PO in the Carbon freezing chamber, but the droid is in pieces on Chewie's back at that point. If someone calls 3PO by name here, I would think he should have reacted. Otherwise you get back to the standard answer to this question, there are lots of that type of droid in the universe and he's not gonna stare at each and every one of them.

In Ep VI, he doesn't get near either of the droids as far as I remember.

That's my best recollections. Any got better memories than me?


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## Lizard (May 19, 2002)

PenguinKing said:
			
		

> *Maybe someone can help me out here.  I need to know if there are any scenes in the original Star Wars trilogy where,
> 
> a) Vader actually lays eyes on either R2D2 or C3P0, or
> 
> ...




The first car I remember my mother owning was a red Ford Pinto.

Whenever I see a red Pinto on the road, I do not think, "Hey, that might have been my mother's old car!" At best, I'll think, "Hey, my mother used to own a car like that."

The are tens of millions of R2-D2's and C-3POs. We don't see droids with that designation in the movies, other than the 'stars', for the same reason you will never see two characters named "John Smith" in the same movie (usually). There is no reason for Darth Vader, upon seeing a protocol droid or an astromech droid, to think they might be the exact same droids he knew when he was  kid/young man.


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## Jerrid Al-Kundo (May 19, 2002)

Here's the part I find creepy:

Episode I: _Master Anakin, I know you're my maker and all..._

Episode IV: _Bless the Maker, this oil bath is going to feel so good..._

Anyone else catch that?


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## RangerWickett (May 19, 2002)

Well, we know that Obi-Wan is either lying or mistaken about not recognizing Artoo in Ep4.  He had enough contact with R2D2 for me to think he'd at least recall the name.  And I dunno, I guess Anakin never really talked about himself to Kenobi, or else he would've mentioned that, "Hey, Obi-Wan, did I ever tell you that I made this droid called C3P0?  Yeah, he lived with me for a while, and later with my mom.  Y'know, he was even at that big battle we had, where all the clones came and saved our butts.  Funny, ain't it?  Oh, but *waves hand* you don't want to remember that for Episode IV."

Kenobi:  "What's Episode IV?"

Skywalker:  *waves hand* "You never heard me mention Episode IV."





And how the heck did Owen not remember C3P0 when he _buys him again_ in Episode IV?!  I guess it was just R2 using his amazing Continuity-Glue powers to keep things from falling apart.


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## Zarrock God of Evil (May 19, 2002)

C3P0 looks a lot differently upon his return to Tatooine in Episode IV than he did when he left it. Owen Lars led a tough and demanding life for more than 10 years in the desert wasteland of Tatooine in between their encounters - I think its reasonable to assume that he may not recognize one protocol droid from the other...

-Zarrock


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## Ziggurat (May 19, 2002)

It also bothers me that in Ep. 4 "My first job was programming binary load-lifters; very similar to your vaporators in most respects", when we know that his first job was probably in fact programming exactly the same vaporators he's now responsible for.

both C3PO and R2D2 will obviously have to have their memories erased next episode.  At least that will make him forget about those dreadful puns


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## Vaxalon (May 19, 2002)

The binary load-lifters, clearly, were in Watto's junkyard.  Load-lifters would be useful there.

As for Vader not recognizing C3PO, considering the number of droids of that basic shape (I'm sure C3PO's outer shell is something mass-produced) I'm not surprised.

What interests *me* is that when C3PO arrives at the Lars farm in IV, he doesn't recall it.  I figure that C3PO doesn't have much of a memory.  After all... you wouldn't want a tranlation/protocol droid to have much in the way of historical memory.  You want him to forget most of what happens as it happens, so that he can't be a spy no matter how inadvertent.  C3PO really seems to live in the present.


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## Snoweel (May 19, 2002)

Maybe 3PO's just a liar?

Anyway, as for the Lars family failing to recognise 3PO again, remember that in that environment, droids must come and go with some frequency.

Maybe Owen was too busy fooling around with his girlfriend Beru back then.


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## KnowTheToe (May 19, 2002)

Just posting on this thread deepens my entrenchment in nerd-dom, but I can not resist.
C3PO could of had several owners between the two series and had his memory wiped several times over.  

Look at manufacturing now,  When anything new comes out it is made in huge quanitities and sold to millions of people (if it is successful) why would anyone remember a droid.  

Why would people get attached to R2-D2.  He beeps, you can't even understand him.

Anyway Lucas wanted to include the characters and they are just as fun in EP2 as they were in the 4-6, I am sure there will be inconsistancies, but who cares, when isn't there in Sci-fi/fantasy?


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## CWD (May 19, 2002)

I can't believe I'm posting to this thread... Oh well.

Easy solution:

In Ep IV R2 and 3PO are on the ship with Leia at the beginning, right?

Obviously in Ep III Padme sends them to the Organa family along with her child, but wipes their memory so Leia's identity can't be compromised.

Tada!


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## Psion (May 19, 2002)

CWD said:
			
		

> *In Ep IV R2 and 3PO are on the ship with Leia at the beginning, right?
> 
> Obviously in Ep III Padme sends them to the Organa family along with her child, but wipes their memory so Leia's identity can't be compromised.
> *




Actually, that makes sense. Presuming Padme is still alive to do such a thing.

Actually, that is about the ONLY explanation that makes sense to me, because having them change hands several times in a galaxy with thousands of inhabited worlds and have their memories erased, and then end up back on Leia's ship and back on Lars' farm is just TOO much of a coincidence.

I still think 3p0 is too much of a coincidence either way. There was no reason to have had Anakin make him except to hype up his Crusher-factor, which I also could have lived without.


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## Voneth (May 19, 2002)

I've read in plenty of places that Star Wars droids are supposed to get a memory erasure when they are bought by a new owner. It seems that when droids memories are allowed to culminate over time, they get personality glitches. My desktops have done the same thing -- if the frequecy of lockups counts as personality. 

It also ensures that the droids have no previous loyalties. Jabba shows his most extreame arrogance by not having his two "gifts" mind wiped before taking them on his barge along with their previous owners. Hmmmm, good case study.


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## DWARF (May 19, 2002)

Alright, so 10 years have passed since episode I, right?  Then did no one notice the glaring error I did?!  Shmii Skywalker is sold to Old Man Lars, who frees her and marries her.  Now, if we assume that he freed and married her all in one day and concieved Owen Lars that same day.... then Owen Lars should be 9 years old in episode II.  Right?

He sure didn't look 10 years old to me.  He looked to be only a few years behind Anakin in age.  I find it really sad that Lucas can't do math like that... oh well.


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## Corinth (May 19, 2002)

Owen is Cliegg's son by his previous wife.  Check the funeral scene again; there are three headstones, not one.  Furthermore, Owen refers to Anakin as a stepbrother, not a half-brother.  This makes clear that Owen is related to Anakin only by marriage.


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## Darklance (May 19, 2002)

DWARF said:
			
		

> *Alright, so 10 years have passed since episode I, right?  Then did no one notice the glaring error I did?!  Shmii Skywalker is sold to Old Man Lars, who frees her and marries her.  Now, if we assume that he freed and married her all in one day and concieved Owen Lars that same day.... then Owen Lars should be 9 years old in episode II.  Right?
> 
> He sure didn't look 10 years old to me.  He looked to be only a few years behind Anakin in age.  I find it really sad that Lucas can't do math like that... oh well. *




I did! All all I can say is: "Milk (of the bantha) it does a body good."


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## Mistwell (May 19, 2002)

C3PO has a bad memory.  This is clear from ANH.  Luke asks him if he has been in battles, and 3PO replies "Several, I think. I'm not very good with such things."  And that makes sense.  As said, you wouldn't want a protocol droid with a good memory for the people they meet.  In addition, Anakin builds him out of spare parts from a junk yard.

R2D2, on the other hand, seems to have a good memory (and is built by a royal family for their personal starship). He does remember Tatooine.  When he and C3PO arrive on tatooine in ANH, R2D2 takes off right away.  C3PO asks him where he is going, and why he seems so convinced that the village is that way (and then gets upset with him for being "technical").  Later, once on the Lars farm, R2D2 heads off asap to exactly where Obi-Wan lives.  It's clear, now, that he knew where he was going.  It's not like Leia had enough time (or even the knowledge) to instruct R2D2 on exactly the location of Obi-Wan Kenobi on Tatooine.  But she does seem to know that R2D2 knows the way, seeks him out, and gives R2D2 the death star plans, assigning him the mission to get them to Obi-Wan, R2D2's prior "master".  In fact, it's even possible that the whole reason the droids are on the same ship as Liea in ANH is so they can lead her to Obi-Wan on Tatooine.


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## Vaxalon (May 20, 2002)

VERY perspicacious, Mistwell.

It makes perfect sense.


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## Squire James (May 20, 2002)

All I can really confirm is that Vader didn't get to see CPO or R2D2 when the Falcon "visited" the Death Star.  He had one good chance to see them, but he was clearly facing away from them and really busy fighting Obi-Wan at the time.

I've never seen Ep I (so call me a heretic), but hearing that Anakin made the two droids strains my suspension of disbelief a bit.  It seems a Jedi has to be responsible for everything important, I guess (at least until a strange non-Jedi called Han Solo arrived at the scene, and who knows what he may be reverse-engineered into by the end of Ep III).


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## Mistwell (May 20, 2002)

Squire James said:
			
		

> *I've never seen Ep I (so call me a heretic), but hearing that Anakin made the two droids strains my suspension of disbelief a bit.  It seems a Jedi has to be responsible for everything important, I guess (at least until a strange non-Jedi called Han Solo arrived at the scene, and who knows what he may be reverse-engineered into by the end of Ep III). *




Actually, the only droid made by a Jedi is C3PO (and unfinished at that).  R2D2 seems to have been made on Naboo by a "normal" engineer as an astrometrics droid for a Naboo Corvette starship.


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## Zerovoid (May 20, 2002)

Squire James said:
			
		

> *I've never seen Ep I (so call me a heretic), but hearing that Anakin made the two droids strains my suspension of disbelief a bit.  It seems a Jedi has to be responsible for everything important, I guess (at least until a strange non-Jedi called Han Solo arrived at the scene, and who knows what he may be reverse-engineered into by the end of Ep III). *




Yeah, I've always found it absurd that he built a robot from scratch as a 10 year old.  I think its more likely that robots are highly modular, like the pieces of a PC.  If some kid told me he built a PC from scrap metal in a junkyard, I wouldn't believe it, but if he said he just found an old CPU, harddrive, etc... and plugged them into a motherboard, well, that's really easy to do.  Anakin probably just snapped C3PO together from a few pieces.  After all, we know that C3PO's body and head function seperately, so that seems to show that they are pretty modular.


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## Geo (May 20, 2002)

*RPG stuff.*

According to the WEG SW game R2-D2 has never had his memory wiped.  C-3PO has had several wipes.  R2 was the captains droid, not leia's, and C-3PO was probably just one of a few on board.  The idea that Padme sent them off to Alderaan is a good one, probably how they serve on the same ship.  R2 already had the plans inside of him the whole time.  In fact it caused him to lose some of his memory, probably the really old ones.  Also, Darth Vader isn't Anakin Skywalker, he is Darth Vader!  They may be the same man physically, but in thier souls, memories, actions, they are different men completely.  A life that full, that evil, probably forgets droids except as tools.  Ah well.


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## PenguinKing (May 20, 2002)

Zerovoid said:
			
		

> *Anakin probably just snapped C3PO together from a few pieces.  After all, we know that C3PO's body and head function seperately, so that seems to show that they are pretty modular. *



Well, if his appearance and "first words" are any indication, C3P0 is patterned on an existing design and runs factory-standard personality programs. =/

 - Sir Bob.


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## Bagpuss (May 20, 2002)

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *I figure that C3PO doesn't have much of a memory.  After all... you wouldn't want a tranlation/protocol droid to have much in the way of historical memory.  You want him to forget most of what happens as it happens, so that he can't be a spy no matter how inadvertent.  C3PO really seems to live in the present. *




Except in Return of the Jedi he tells the ewoks stories about Master Luke's adventures. If he couldn't remember them how did he manage that?


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## Zarrock God of Evil (May 20, 2002)

The mindwipe theory is still sound. In ANH, Owen Lars tells Luke to take R2 to Mos Eisley and give him a mindwipe so he'll forget about Kenobi...

-Zarrock


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## Angelsboi (May 20, 2002)

ok im new to the Star Wars genre but heres my take.

Why did 3PO tell the ewoks stories and remember?  EASY!!!  Neither Luke, Leia or Han had him wiped.  Did they really have the time?  No.  

Also Its easy to get attached to R2D2.  I did.  I think hes cute.

Did anyone else notice that Obiwan in Ep II used the same trick Han and Leia use in Ep V??  I think thats how Boba Fett knew how to find them ...


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## Corinth (May 21, 2002)

That is a bit of connectivity that I hadn't considered.


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## mmu1 (May 21, 2002)

Of course, a much simpler explanation for everything is that Lucas has no qualms whatsoever about re-writing history, and that, because he doesn't seem to mind screwing up continuity (R2D2's thrusters, anyone?), the droids' history just doesn't make any sense.   

He hasn't gone to any trouble to smooth out the rough edges on something as huge as Anakin and Padme's courtship, so I really doubt there's much to look forward to in the droid department. Yeah, there are many ways in which their horribly mangled story (the level of contrivance reminds me of some D&D games gone bad I've played in... and a few I ran ) could be put right, but it's not going to happen.  The fans have been doing a hell of a better job of explaining Star Wars plot holes than Lucas was ever interested in doing. 

Oh yeah, by the way, the whole  R2D2 'creation story' - I'm sorry, but if anyone thinks that it makes sense that the same people (as in same culture, not same three engineers) who designed the hood-ornament Naboo starships, the Naboo royal regalia, the guns the guard and the princess use, etc. also designed R2D2... Please, you have to promise me to get an interior decorator and get someone else to pick your clothing for you, because your sense of aesthetics is likely warped beyond recovery   These people DON'T do simple an utilitarian... An R2 unit might go well with an X-Wing, stuck into a Naboo starfighter it looks out of place. (Speaking of stuck into a starfighter - if R2's can fly, why is getting them in and out of fighters such a pain in the ass in Episodes IV-VI? Eh?)


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## Azathoth (May 21, 2002)

Did anyone else notice in Episode V when Han and the rest run away from Vader, Boba Fett is about to blast Chewie in the back, except he lowers Boba's blaster. Because C3P0 is on his back!

Or maybe it's nothing.


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## Mouseferatu (May 21, 2002)

Azathoth said:
			
		

> *Did anyone else notice in Episode V when Han and the rest run away from Vader, Boba Fett is about to blast Chewie in the back, except he lowers Boba's blaster. Because C3P0 is on his back!
> 
> Or maybe it's nothing. *




Actually, I think that's just because:

A) he wants the prisoners unharmed, and

B) he knows there's nowhere they can go.


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## CDX (May 21, 2002)

Voneth said:
			
		

> *I've read in plenty of places that Star Wars droids are supposed to get a memory erasure when they are bought by a new owner. It seems that when droids memories are allowed to culminate over time, they get personality glitches.*




Don't forget, 3PO mentions in ANH that they were both owned by Captain Antilles (Wedge) previous to Princess Leia. Obviously their memories weren't wiped between owners there, or he wouldn't know that.


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## Horacio (May 21, 2002)

That Captain Antilles is not Wedge, he's the captain of the rebel ship where Leia voyaged, the captain that was killed chocked by Lod Vader at the beggininf of Ep. IV.

AFAIK, Antilles is as common in Star Wars like Smith in the US or Gonzalez in Spain. In Ep. 1 and II there is a Bail Antilles who is memeber of the Senate.


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## Henry (May 21, 2002)

I think mistwell hit on something pretty big and obvious, here. It's not really C3PO and R2D2 who tie the series together, but rather just R2. Just think how different the entire history would have been had R2 been hit and destroyed in the running ship battle at Naboo in the beginning of Episode I. None of the story could have happened as it did. Maybe Lucas is giving a little of the "one being can make a difference" philosophy... 

Or rather, Lucas just loves the idea of that much improbably chance accumulating in one little non-force-sensitive droid...

_"...R2D2 - your midichlorians at work..._ 

BTW, Nubian Corp. (or whatever they're called), did not build Artoo, Industrial Automation did. The R2 as we can see is a VERY popular series of droids.

As for the "R2 Booster rockets", I have to concur - if those are standard issue (which would seem logical in an astromech unit), then why don't we see more evidence of them? If not, then we are left with the question of how he loses them.


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## Macbrea (May 21, 2002)

You might notice that in ANH there is a silver C3-P0 walking about the halls at the same time as the Gold C3-P0. They are the exact same model.  When all throughout episode 1 and 2 C3-P0 is a dingy dirt colored unfinished metal.  

By episode 4, Darth Vader, the guy who now squashes people with his thoughts, probably hasn't a care in the world about his childhood toys.  And wouldn't think twice about a group of rebels protocal droid. 

As to C3-P0, not remembering Lars farm....has to be a brain wipe. 

R2-D2 never claims to have not been there.  And this droid is just prone to lie if the mission requires it.  He is stubborn and irresponsible as an astromech.  He is more like a hero with a sidekick.  When he lands on the planet he starts heading to the village.  When he is picked up he is sold to a known point of reference and heads toward Obi-wans residence. This droid didn't see any reason to deviate from its purpose. 


I think astromech were designed to fit in the exact same designed spot on every known fighter of the time.


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## Darklone (May 21, 2002)

*Droids*

I remember most of the old Starwars RPG and there was mentioned that most droids get mindwipes. Those things don't bug me too much and the explanation that young Anakin just repaired an old C3PO model is good enough for me.

Another thing: I read in those same old sources that Vader spent a lot of time hunting and killing the remaining jedi knights. As well as his children. I just can't believe he didn't check Tattoine as hiding place. Padme sure didn't trust him to still be nice enough not to kill his relatives at his mothers grave.


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## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

*Re: Droids*

The only reason to go to Tatooine would be for Luke or Obiwan. I don't think he would want to kill either of them.

1. He wants Luke alive so that the two of them can kill the Emperor and replace him.

2. He needs Obiwan alive to hide on Tatooine and protect Luke.

Anakin isnt dumb, he probably kills Dooku in EP3 and knows that you only keep the junior sith position for as long as you are strong enough. So he keeps Luke alive in hopes that he can use his son later to get rid of the Emperor. I would be willing to bet that this is reinforced in EP3 by Sidious basically casting off Dooku and telling Anakin to kill him. I bet Dooku dies with a shocked and betrayed look on his face.



			
				Darklone said:
			
		

> *
> Another thing: I read in those same old sources that Vader spent a lot of time hunting and killing the remaining jedi knights. As well as his children. I just can't believe he didn't check Tattoine as hiding place. Padme sure didn't trust him to still be nice enough not to kill his relatives at his mothers grave. *


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## Darklone (May 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: Droids*



			
				DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Anakin isnt dumb, he probably kills Dooku in EP3 and knows that you only keep the junior sith position for as long as you are strong enough.
> *




Nah, old books hint that Yoda killed the dark jedi on Dagoba.


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## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Droids*

Lucas has said that old books don't mean diddly. Besides the old book you are referring to also said that Dark Jedi was not human.




			
				Darklone said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Nah, old books hint that Yoda killed the dark jedi on Dagoba. *


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## Welverin (May 25, 2002)

Jerrid Al-Kundo said:
			
		

> *Here's the part I find creepy:
> 
> Episode I: Master Anakin, I know you're my maker and all...
> 
> ...




Episode II: _Oh my! Oh, my maker! Master Anakin!_

I took the quote out of the novel since I didn't remember exactly what he said in the movie.


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## Mouseferatu (May 25, 2002)

*Unobservant Droids*

(Cross-posted from the "Seen it I have" thread)

*WARNING!!* 

What follows is potentially a spoiler for Episode III. It's not much of a spoiler, because it's a very minor detail, and it's something we've all guessed already, but nevertheless, if you want to avoid it, don't scroll down.

*




*




*




*




*




Still here? Okay. The following is from E! News, courtesy of the Force.net website:




> Patrick Stinson: Anakin in Episode One created C3PO. In the original trilogy, C3PO doesn't recognize him as Darth Vader because...
> 
> George Lucas: Well, one, his brains have, his memory system has been erased and so has R2's. So, they don't remember anything from the first trilogy. I'm telling you something from Episode 3, but I shouldn't be telling you that, but I think most of the fans already know that.





There we have it, folks. An answer straight from the man himself. Thought you might like to know.


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