# Any other vegetarians / vegans?



## Gnome (Sep 23, 2005)

I was just curious how many other vergetarians or vegans were on EN World.  I'm a vegetarian who eats a mostly vegan diet myself.


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## Tewligan (Sep 23, 2005)

Well, I had been doing the full-on vegetarian thing for almost a year until just a couple of months ago. It wasn't as hard as I thought it would be - it helped that I live in an apartment with a couple of people who are mostly vegetarian. However, i just realized that I like meat a LOT, and I have other bad habits that aren't any good for me, so now I'm back on the meat wagon. Mmm, sweet flesh!

Oh, and something I discovered when I started eating meat again - if you suddenly eat a lot of meat after close to a year of not eating any at all, your digestive system will react VERY violently for a few days. Ugh.


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## Qlippoth (Sep 23, 2005)

I've been vegetarian since 1988, though I do include fish in my diet (being that they're among the least cuddly of the food animals, I guess) along with eggs & dairy. That said, my diet isn't the shining example it could be...


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## Crothian (Sep 23, 2005)

Darkness is and has been since he was quite young.


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## fusangite (Sep 23, 2005)

I'm an ex-vegetarian and still cook vegetarian food. I also contribute vegetarian recipes to my friend Ron's cookbook series.


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## Blue_Kryptonite (Sep 23, 2005)

I can't be a vegetarian. My doctor won't let me. I need beef protein to offset my neurological condition. 

Similarly, my son's fiancee used to be a vegetarian. But she, too was informed she needed to eat meat to avoid IBS complications. Fruit and vegetables exit her system at the speed of dark.


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## The Shaman (Sep 23, 2005)

I've been a vegetarian for a little over ten years now.

When I lived on my own, I kept to a strictly vegan diet. After my wife and I were married, I let in dairy and egg-whites again - it's a bit easier for both of us this way.


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## Pielorinho (Sep 23, 2005)

I eat fish, but no four-chambered-heart critters.  (It has to do with higher cognitive functions for me; I also won't eat octopodes).

Daniel


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## BOZ (Sep 23, 2005)

i eat anything i can kill, and if i can't kill it i eat it while it's still moving.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 23, 2005)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Oh, and something I discovered when I started eating meat again - if you suddenly eat a lot of meat after close to a year of not eating any at all, your digestive system will react VERY violently for a few days. Ugh.



You know, this is the *exact* example I give pet owners when telling them not to switch their pet's food too quickly.    Its true to a lesser extent of different kinds of meat, too. If I've been pure fish and chicken for my protien for a while then have a lot of beef, my digestive tract gives me what-for.   

I was veggie with fish for a while then went to "only free range meats" but convienience has been beating me down on that...    Maybe someday I will have a diet I can feel good about and, you know, actually get nutrition into me with.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Sep 24, 2005)

Me, I dream of the day when we can raise veal in zero-G.  I couldn't be a vegetarian if you put a gun to my head.


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## Dark Jezter (Sep 24, 2005)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Oh, and something I discovered when I started eating meat again - if you suddenly eat a lot of meat after close to a year of not eating any at all, your digestive system will react VERY violently for a few days. Ugh.




I've heard this as well, and it reminds me of a story I heard from a friend a while back:  He was at a barbecue, and one of the guests there was a woman who was a rather militant vegitarian (in the sense that not only did she not eat meat, but she'd get preachy about how wrong it was to eat animals to anybody who did).

Anyways, my friend and a couple of other guys managed to convince her that the hot dogs cooking on the grill were actually veggie dogs.  She ate two of them, and soon after suddenly felt very ill and left the party.  My friend learned from this that if you begin eating meat after being a vegitarian a long time, it'll make you pretty sick.  As for the woman who ate the hot dogs, I don't think anybody ever told her the truth about the "veggie dogs".


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## Ahnehnois (Sep 24, 2005)

If it's an animal, and it's dead, I ain't eating it. Been that way by choice since I was five or so. And while I am not often overt about it, I don't understand how anyone could be any other way.


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## BOZ (Sep 24, 2005)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Me, I dream of the day when we can raise veal in zero-G.  I couldn't be a vegetarian if you put a gun to my head.




i could be a vegetarian under threat of death, that's not a problem.  but the gunman's arm would have to get tired eventually...


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## Blue_Kryptonite (Sep 24, 2005)

Ahnehnois said:
			
		

> If it's an animal, and it's dead, I ain't eating it. Been that way by choice since I was five or so. And while I am not often overt about it, I don't understand how anyone could be any other way.




Not trying to cause any trouble, but not even if a number of doctors told you it was essential to your continued survival? Some of us do have that very problem. 

--BK, generally interested in the answer, no matter what it is.


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## GlassJaw (Sep 24, 2005)

Ahnehnois said:
			
		

> If it's an animal, and it's dead, I ain't eating it. Been that way by choice since I was five or so. And while I am not often overt about it, I don't understand how anyone could be any other way.




Food chain?


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## The Shaman (Sep 24, 2005)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Oh, and something I discovered when I started eating meat again - if you suddenly eat a lot of meat after close to a year of not eating any at all, your digestive system will react VERY violently for a few days. Ugh.



My understanding is that the flora in your intestines that digest meat die back, making it hard to handle until the flora population rebound.

Believe it or not, your colon has an ecosystem.


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## fusangite (Sep 24, 2005)

Ahnehnois said:
			
		

> If it's an animal, and it's dead, I ain't eating it. Been that way by choice since I was five or so. And while I am not often overt about it, I don't understand how anyone could be any other way.



Don't worry -- as you age you'll become more empathetic.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 24, 2005)

My wife and kids are vegetarian (lacto-ovo), and as I am the chef in the house and don't feel like cooking myself a special meal, I pretty much am as well.  I enjoy vegetarian cooking (especially not having to clean up the grease from cooking meat).

I may eat meat when I go out, but I look at the vegetarian items first.

The one thing I told my wife when we got engaged was that in no way would I ever give up my seafood.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Sep 24, 2005)

Meh. I like meat, and have satisfied myself on the moral issues, so I'm still an omnivore. 

Mmmmmm.....meat


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## elforcelf (Sep 24, 2005)

I was one for seven years but becasuse (sp) of health reasons eat some Beef and Some Turkey.


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 24, 2005)

I'm a vegan. This is the kind of thread that makes a chap feel quite lonely.  



			
				Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Anyways, my friend and a couple of other guys managed to convince her that the hot dogs cooking on the grill were actually veggie dogs.  She ate two of them, and soon after suddenly felt very ill and left the party.  My friend learned from this that if you begin eating meat after being a vegitarian a long time, it'll make you pretty sick.  As for the woman who ate the hot dogs, I don't think anybody ever told her the truth about the "veggie dogs".




Just out of curiousity: if the anecdote had been about some of your friends tricking a Jew into eating pork or a Hindu into eating beef, would you still have put a winking smiley at the end?


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## Dark Jezter (Sep 24, 2005)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Just out of curiousity: if the anecdote had been about some of your friends tricking a Jew into eating pork or a Hindu into eating beef, would you still have put a winking smiley at the end?




Probably not.  But since the girl in question who unknowingly ate the meat was a self-rightous biatch who probably only became a vegitarian because it was the fashonable thing to do for college-age activists, I don't feel a lick of remorse over taking amusement in it.


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## fusangite (Sep 24, 2005)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Just out of curiousity: if the anecdote had been about some of your friends tricking a Jew into eating pork or a Hindu into eating beef, would you still have put a winking smiley at the end?



Are you suggesting that your vegetarianism rises to the level of religious faith? Are you a Buddhist or Jainist? Actually, Buddhists are a poor example because for Buddhists, vegetarianism stems from a desire to avoid doing harm rather than from some kind of ritual impurity covenant breach. Most vegetarians I know are simply trying to avoid causing themselves or animals harm to the greatest possible degree; this is very different from keeping kosher or halal which stems from an idea that ritual impurity damages the link between the self and God. 

Anyway, I can't answer for the original poster but I think there are legitimate reasons to view secular vegetarian food proscriptions differently than religious purity rules.


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## elforcelf (Sep 24, 2005)

It still is regious for them fung-man,


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## Tewligan (Sep 25, 2005)

Easy, guys...this is maybe starting to drift into the kind of talk that gets threads locked.


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## talinthas (Sep 25, 2005)

been a vegetarian my whole life (my parents became orthodox hindus (as opposed to run of the mill hindus) right before i was born), except for one time when i wondered why everyone else could get happy meals and i couldnt.  my dad took me to wendy's, bought me a burger, cleaned me after i was violently sick, and i've not desired it since.  It's not that i'm militant (my best friends would eat the cow if it was still moving, on the assumtion that it would stop eventually on the way down), but more out of habit than anything else.  Besides, my culture is entirely vegetarian, and my cuisine is too,  and since indian food is so damned good, i've got no reason to stop =)

However, since i moved to japan a few months ago, i gotta say it's been really freakin' hard to be vegetarian here.  at least in the states, it's possible to eat out and get junk food or whatever that's vegetarian.  but here in japan, don't even bother.

As for meat, i just don't have the enzymes to digest it, so when a stray chunk of something gets in my food, i pretty much autohurl.


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## BOZ (Sep 25, 2005)

if you've been a vegeterian your whole life, i.e. meat was never introduced into your system, does it become impossible to introduce it later in life, or merely just difficult?  say, if you ate something with tiny bits of chicken in it every day for a week would your system start to accept it after awhile or would that be futile?


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## talinthas (Sep 25, 2005)

i dont know.  i know that there are vegetarians who have managed to become meat eaters (my dad, for instance, came from india to texas during the 70's to go to school.  being vegetarian there ceased to be an option, and his first job was at a mcd's, no less.)
but as for practical experience, i recently thought hard about just giving up vegetarianism, but i couldnt do it.  my conscience just wouldnt let me give up my cultural customs.


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## BOZ (Sep 25, 2005)

i can respect that.


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Sep 25, 2005)

Lacto-ovo vegetarian since I was about 16.  Now, I'm just out of the habit, so meat seems gross to me when its served up alongside food, or as though it were food.  I married a meat eater, and though she has no intention of giving up meat, she eats very little of it anymore, just as a matter of happenstance and menu-planning convenience.


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 25, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Are you suggesting that your vegetarianism rises to the level of religious faith? Are you a Buddhist or Jainist? Actually, Buddhists are a poor example because for Buddhists, vegetarianism stems from a desire to avoid doing harm rather than from some kind of ritual impurity covenant breach. Most vegetarians I know are simply trying to avoid causing themselves or animals harm to the greatest possible degree; this is very different from keeping kosher or halal which stems from an idea that ritual impurity damages the link between the self and God.
> 
> Anyway, I can't answer for the original poster but I think there are legitimate reasons to view secular vegetarian food proscriptions differently than religious purity rules.




The way I tend to describe my veganism is that whilst it isn't a relgion, it occuplies the same place within my being that a relgion would otherwise occupy. And whilst I can't really compare the way I feel about it to the way a reglious person might feel about their relgion, I think I can safely say that I take it a damn site more seriously than most of the people I know who claim to be followers of a religion. (And I'm including religions that involve food prohibitions here).

So I guess I would say that my veganism "rises to the level of a religion". Certainly, that the way my friends (some of whom are religious) describe it when explaining me to other people.


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 25, 2005)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Easy, guys...this is maybe starting to drift into the kind of talk that gets threads locked.




Well I have to confess that I'm a bit curious as to why a thread which was supposedly for vegans or vegetarians "out themselves" is instead full of non-vegans and non-vegetarians.

I mean, if someone did a thread which asked if there were any Christians on here (i.e. purely as a social, gettogether call), I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do a post to say that I'm *not* a Christian, and I sure as hell wouldn't start doing posts which were vaguely critical of Christianity (or telling jokes about how friends of mine had done y things to Christians).


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 25, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Probably not.  But since the girl in question who unknowingly ate the meat was a self-rightous biatch who probably only became a vegitarian because it was the fashonable thing to do for college-age activists, I don't feel a lick of remorse over taking amusement in it.




So it's your opinion that it's okay to trample over someone's moral beliefs if you think they're a "self-rightous blatch" who is "probably" doing it for shallow reasons?

Nice.

Remind me not to ever share lunch with you.


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## Gnome (Sep 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if you've been a vegeterian your whole life, i.e. meat was never introduced into your system, does it become impossible to introduce it later in life, or merely just difficult?  say, if you ate something with tiny bits of chicken in it every day for a week would your system start to accept it after awhile or would that be futile?





I have met one person who was raised vegetarian from birth who ate meat as an adult, and have heard of others.  AFAIK, it's no different for them them it is for someone who had been vegetarian for several months, then went back to meat-eating.


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## Gnome (Sep 25, 2005)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Well I have to confess that I'm a bit curious as to why a thread which was supposedly for vegans or vegetarians "out themselves" is instead full of non-vegans and non-vegetarians.
> 
> I mean, if someone did a thread which asked if there were any Christians on here (i.e. purely as a social, gettogether call), I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do a post to say that I'm *not* a Christian, and I sure as hell wouldn't start doing posts which were vaguely critical of Christianity (or telling jokes about how friends of mine had done y things to Christians).




Well said.  I was wanting to say something similar myself, but wasn't able to find a way to say it diplomatically (like you just did).


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 25, 2005)

Gnome said:
			
		

> I have met one person who was raised vegetarian from birth who ate meat as an adult, and have heard of others.  AFAIK, it's no different for them them it is for someone who had been vegetarian for several months, then went back to meat-eating.




Yep, I've known people who have started on meat with no problems, and others who had a really hard time of it.  I think it can be done by anyone, but it may be more difficut for some.  We figure at some point we'll have to deal with it with the kids, hopefully not at school after eating a school lunch (of course there isn't really meat in those).


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## Ahnehnois (Sep 25, 2005)

Blue_Kryptonite said:
			
		

> Not trying to cause any trouble, but not even if a number of doctors told you it was essential to your continued survival? Some of us do have that very problem.
> 
> --BK, generally interested in the answer, no matter what it is.



My memories of eating meat (both before I stopped and once accidentally afterwards) are possibly the most disturbing ones I have. I honestly believe if I had a choice between killing some animal and eating it or dying myself, I would choose the latter. Of course, when presented with a life-or-death situation, humans will do almost anything, even eat each other. I am simply glad I live in a society where eating meat is a matter of choice (at least for many people).

IMO meat eating, like many things, is more social than biological. I had one vegetarian parent (who did not trumpet the idea or try to impose it on me) and one not-so-vegetarian parent. I tried both ways at an early age, and picked vegetarianism without a second thought. I don't miss eating the flesh of dead animals one bit. It's not about animal rights for me, nor about being on a diet, nor do I even think about it as being a big moral choice. To me, plants are food and animals aren't. I suspect that in my situation, most people would choose the same way, but most people do not have a clear choice like I did.

Incidentally, a recent talk I was at mentioned things that various cultures did that were accepted at the time but deemed horribly immoral later, human slavery and sacrifice being obligatory examples. I suspect that in a few generations, if there are any humans left, they will probably be vegetarians.


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## LeapingShark (Sep 25, 2005)

My body is a "lean mean sports machine" and I monitor my "fuel" carefully.  I tend to avoid many meats because they have so many saturated fats.  But lean meats, like turkey, are good.  My meals are more focused on things like albacore tuna, and of course beans beans beans wonderful beans.  I do love the taste of steak though, and remember the days when I ate more.  Yum! Just thinking about it makes me hungry for roast beef sandwich.


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 25, 2005)

LeapingShark said:
			
		

> My body is a "lean mean sports machine" and I monitor my "fuel" carefully.  I tend to avoid many meats because they have so many saturated fats.  But lean meats, like turkey, are good.  My meals are more focused on things like albacore tuna, and of course beans beans beans wonderful beans.  I do love the taste of steak though, and remember the days when I ate more.  Yum! Just thinking about it makes me hungry for roast beef sandwich.




Again, is this not a blatent thread-jack?


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## Dark Jezter (Sep 25, 2005)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> So it's your opinion that it's okay to trample over someone's moral beliefs if you think they're a "self-rightous blatch" who is "probably" doing it for shallow reasons?




That's pretty much the gist of it, yes.

Of course, you also have to take into account that she would wear _leather_ shoes and belts while preaching about how wrong it was to kill animals.  That kinda took away some of her credibility right there.



> Nice.
> 
> Remind me not to ever share lunch with you.




Such a reminder would only be necessary if I ever wanted to have lunch with you.


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## Wereserpent (Sep 25, 2005)

For every animal you dont eat, I'll eat three.  

J/K, I dont have anything against Vegetarians.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 26, 2005)

I've been a vegetarian (ovo-lacto) for about 10 years now.

joe b.


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## fusangite (Sep 26, 2005)

Hey guys, seeing how things have gone since my last post, I just have to retract what I said. 

While I'm really not impressed by Johnny Nexus's statements, especially his suggestion that the jock claiming poultry is a vegetable doesn't belong in this thread (he does represent a subset of the people who call themselves "vegetarians"), I really have to urge my fellow carnivors to give these people a break. This thread is here, I think, to help vegetarians on ENWorld get a bit of a sense of community within the community; we should probably back off and let them do that.


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## LeapingShark (Sep 26, 2005)

Alot of friends ask me if I'm a vegetarian, because people often confuse me with one. For example I'll be at a dinner party and I'll pass on the meats.  Then of course the host will ask why I'm not eating the main course.  That's why I posted in a thread about vegetarians, my diet has some similarities.  Geez, I didn't know I had to fit some kind of specific qualifications in order to post here.     I mean come on, if a lacto-vegetarian posted here, would he also be accused of derailing the thread?? That's pretty rough! My diet is very close to what some dieticians might categorize as "semi-vegetarian" (small portions of fish or chicken, rarely any red meat), which is just one step more lax than lacto-ovo vegetarianism.   

LOL, where are people coming up with the wild accusation that I am claiming poultry is a vegetable??


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## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

i have seen some people give up on red meat and consider themselves vegetarians.  mmm, yummy vegetarian chicken sandwich!  give me a break!    as far as i'm concerned, vegetarians don't eat animal parts and that's it.  vegans take it a step further and don't eat anything that came from an animal at all.

if you eat chicken or fish, then "vegetarian" is not the right word for you.  (not speaking about anyone on here, even if it seems i am, just ranting about people in general).


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 26, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Hey guys, seeing how things have gone since my last post, I just have to retract what I said.
> 
> While I'm really not impressed by Johnny Nexus's statements,




Well given that all I've done is pointed out that a) this was supposed to be a thread for vegetarians and vegans, and b) tricking people who follow certain ethcical beliefs into eating food that contravenes those ethical beliefs is a spectacularly  thing to do, I didn't think I'd actually said anything particularly out of order.

But I guess that's a matter of opinion.   



			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> especially his suggestion that the jock claiming poultry is a vegetable doesn't belong in this thread (he does represent a subset of the people who call themselves "vegetarians"),




Erm... Could I just point out that the post that I accused of being a thread-jacking was this one:



			
				LeapingShark said:
			
		

> My body is a "lean mean sports machine" and I monitor my "fuel" carefully.  I tend to avoid many meats because they have so many saturated fats.  But lean meats, like turkey, are good.  My meals are more focused on things like albacore tuna, and of course beans beans beans wonderful beans.  I do love the taste of steak though, and remember the days when I ate more.  Yum! Just thinking about it makes me hungry for roast beef sandwich.




I don't see any mention of poultry being a vegetable there. All I see is a health-conscious non-vegetarian who eats meat, talking about what meat he eats.

And just because someone calls themselves a vegetarian, that in itself doesn't make them a vegetarian. It's actually *being* a vegetarian that makes you a vegetarian.


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 26, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> vegans take it a step further and don't eat anything that came from an animal at all.




Just to clarify things: vegans attempt to avoid the use of animal *products* as far as possible. As a rough summary, this means: no meat, fish, eggs, milk, leather, wool or silk.

If someone avoids eating animal products, presumably for some perceived health-reasons, but happily wears leather and wool, then they aren't vegans but are instead simply someone who follows a vegan diet (the phrase "dietary vegan" or "dietary-only vegan" is sometimes used).


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 26, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> That's pretty much the gist of it, yes.
> 
> Of course, you also have to take into account that she would wear _leather_ shoes and belts while preaching about how wrong it was to kill animals.  That kinda took away some of her credibility right there.




Well in the interests of fairness and honesty, I do have to say that while I still don't in any way condone what your friend and his mates did, if it was true that she wore leather shoes and belts then she was, in my opinion, a spectacular hypocrite.



			
				Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Such a reminder would only be necessary if I ever wanted to have lunch with you.




Well clearly that's not the case, so I guess we should just agree to dislike each other.


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## LeapingShark (Sep 26, 2005)

"Non-vegetarian who eats meat" is relative too.  For example in my case I posted here specifically because I do not eat meat, with some small exceptions.  This week, I've had albacore tuna twice, and that was the total extent of my meat consumption.  Not a strict vegetarian, but eating just like one in 19 of 21 meals.  (I drink nonfat milk, but do not ever eat cheese, I don't know to categorize that..)  At times, it can be very difficult to hold back my cravings, because I do like meat!


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 26, 2005)

LeapingShark said:
			
		

> "Non-vegetarian who eats meat" is relative too.  For example in my case I posted here specifically because I do not eat meat, with some small exceptions.  This week, I've had albacore tuna twice, and that was the total extent of my meat consumption.  Not a strict vegetarian, but eating just like one in 19 of 21 meals.  (I drink nonfat milk, but do not ever eat cheese, I don't know to categorize that..)  At times, it can be very difficult to hold back my cravings, because I do like meat!




Well my feeling on this would be (and I'm saying this in a desire to show where I'm coming from) is that what you're saying is a bit like someone saying, "I'm celebate*... except when I have sex, which I did twice last week."

i.e. A vegetarian is someone who thinks it's wrong to eat meat and so doesn't eat meat. At all. 

You don't feel that is wrong to eat meat, and do eat meat, therefore I wouldn't consider you to be a vegetarian. That's not meant as criticism, but simply as a statement of fact.

* Although interestingly enough, I have noticed that people who describe themselves as celebate usually have sex considerably more often than I do, because the very fact that they have "chosen" to abstain from sex indicates that they have a lifestyle in which sex is readily available to them.


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## Azul (Sep 26, 2005)

I'm definitely not a vegitarian and I can't really imagine trying to live off a vegan diet.  It's both personally and culturally rather alien to me.  I understand and respect why someone would choose vegetarianism (both for moral and health issues).  I simply disagree on the morale issues (humans are omnivores by nature and it seems silly to me to feel guilty about our biology).

That being said, I do have significant concerns regarding inhumane agricultural practices such as factory farming.  Sure, I'm fine with eating an animal but I think that animal should be given a reasonably good quality of life and a painless death.

I guess it is a question of respect and of avoiding unnecessary cruelty for me.  I am fine with eating animals but I feel that any food animal deserves to be treated with as much respect as possible.  Wherever I manage to find options for more humanely treated animal products in my food purchases, I pretty systematically go for those.  I wish more such non-factory farmed animal products were available.

This philosophy also lead me to support controlled hunting where the hunter makes optimal use of the animals he hunts (e.g. using the meat, fur/hide, whatnot).  I used to generally dislike hunting (it seemed cruel at first glance) until I realized it was less cruel than how much of our meat is produced.  This form of meat production provides the animal with a humane life up until the day it is harvested.  In my view, such hunting is a more ethical alternative to many current farming practices.  Sport hunting, on the other hand, is something I view as needless waste and cruelty.  Killing to eat is one thing.  Killing for fun is another.  For the record, no, I'm not a hunter but several of my friends and relatives are.

If my views were strong enough to override my innate desire to eat meat, I imagine I'd be a vegetarian or nearly so (perhaps I'd raise a few animals myself or buy only from humane farmers I knew) .

However, I just don't feel strongly enough about it to make radical changes in my lifestyle like that.  For better or wose, other issues (both personal and political) are more important to me.  I just try to minimize my contribution to supporting less savoury farming practices whenever I can and use my purchasing power to encourage more humane practices.  Maybe it's just my conscience speaking, but animals that lead happier lives seem to result in tastier animal products too.

As for vegetarianism, I'm always happy to accomodate those who I know that have made that choice.  It seems like a fairly tough thing to be in much of North America since our culture involves a lot of meat eating.  The vegitarians I know have all seemed to struggle against a deep craving for meat.  Perhaps it is merely a psychological craving since none were brought up veggie (i.e. they remember the taste of meat and the smell of a steak still makes the drool).  They also seem to be motivated by moral issues rather than any health or cultural reasons.


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## LeapingShark (Sep 26, 2005)

Jonny Nexus: Your analogy assumes everybody has sex about 21 times a week.  For some of us, those would be rather lofty expectations!


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## talinthas (Sep 26, 2005)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> i.e. A vegetarian is someone who thinks it's wrong to eat meat and so doesn't eat meat. At all.
> 
> You don't feel that is wrong to eat meat, and do eat meat, therefore I wouldn't consider you to be a vegetarian. That's not meant as criticism, but simply as a statement of fact.




I don't know that i like this tone as representative of all vegetarians.  I don't think it's wrong to eat meat--i just choose not to do it.  Vegetarian refers to a style of diet, not a philosophy and way of being.  In my case, i'm a brahmin hindu raised to be vegetarian, because that's how our culture has established values for the priest class.  Lower castes eat meat because the scriptures indicate that it's good for their professions or what have you.  Certainly, some extremists have taken that to mean that eating meat itself is entirely wrong, but that's an entirely different ballpark than not eating meat yourself.

it's a shame that too often, diet and politics mix in western culture, when they really have no need to.


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## GeorgeFields (Sep 26, 2005)

We've been easing into the veggie diet for a few months now. We have some meat, but the amounts keep decreasing. I don't think I've ever been healthier in my entire life.

I never knew that eggplant tastes good!


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 26, 2005)

talinthas said:
			
		

> I don't know that i like this tone as representative of all vegetarians.  I don't think it's wrong to eat meat--i just choose not to do it.  Vegetarian refers to a style of diet, not a philosophy and way of being.  In my case, i'm a brahmin hindu raised to be vegetarian, because that's how our culture has established values for the priest class.  Lower castes eat meat because the scriptures indicate that it's good for their professions or what have you.  Certainly, some extremists have taken that to mean that eating meat itself is entirely wrong, but that's an entirely different ballpark than not eating meat yourself.
> 
> it's a shame that too often, diet and politics mix in western culture, when they really have no need to.




Well I guess to a certain extent I shouldn't speak for vegetarians given that I'm not a vegetarian - I'm a vegan.

With veganism the issue is much simpler: the Vegan Society actually invented the word vegan during a brainstorming session at their first meeting. So what the vegan society says is the definition of the word is by definition the definition, if you get my drift.  

(And their definition is that vegans avoid the use of all animal products whereever possible - i.e. it's a lifestyle and *not* just a diet).

With vegetarianism, the issue is more complex because the word predates organisations such as the Vegetarian Society, so it could be argued that they can't define what it means (and I'm not sure what their definition is, anyway).

But I take your point that a vegetarian is simply someone who abstains entirely* from meat - for whatever reason - and that you can't, and shouldn't, assume why they are doing so.

* And technically speaking, it could be argued that the definition of an English word is whatever people use it to mean, so if enough people start using it to mean "someone who eats some meat but not a lot" then that is what it will mean - and since the Vegetarian Society didn't invent the word, there's not a lot they can do about that, were it to occur.


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## Gnome (Sep 26, 2005)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Well in the interests of fairness and honesty, I do have to say that while I still don't in any way condone what your friend and his mates did, if it was true that she wore leather shoes and belts then she was, in my opinion, a spectacular hypocrite.




Well, one thing to consider is existing items: I've been vegetarian for ethical reasons (trying to move closer to vegan all the time) for about 1 1/2 years, but have only had non-leather shoes for about a month.  Why?  Because I had already purchased them before my switch, and giving them up wouldn't bring the cow back to life.

I understand why others would choose to give-up such items right away, but I tend to be more pragmatic about such matters.


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## Gnome (Sep 26, 2005)

Btw, my definition of vegetarian is not eating anything that poops.


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 26, 2005)

Gnome said:
			
		

> Well, one thing to consider is existing items: I've been vegetarian for ethical reasons (trying to move closer to vegan all the time) for about 1 1/2 years, but have only had non-leather shoes for about a month.  Why?  Because I had already purchased them before my switch, and giving them up wouldn't bring the cow back to life.
> 
> I understand why others would choose to give-up such items right away, but I tend to be more pragmatic about such matters.




This is a question that comes up from time to time.

My personal take on it is that I believe that animal products should be treated as taboo, evil in fact, and that to use them - even where they are pre-existing - risks weakening that taboo, and giving the impression that it's an okay thing to do.

An analogy here is the fight against furs, when they tried to get over an idea that fur coats were simply disgusting, and no decent person would want to be seen in one. This wouldn't have worked if they were simultaneously saying that it was okay to wear fur coats that you already had.

*However* (and this is a big however) whilst I personally don't agree with the wearing of pre-existing animal products, I do *not* consider that it disqualifies someone from being a vegetarian or vegan.

In other words I still recognise vegans who wear pre-existing leather shoes as vegans, merely vegans who are following a different interpretation of the code to me. (Whereas if a "vegan" was to go out and buy a pair of leather shoes, I simply wouldn't consider them a vegan at all).

Hope that all makes sense.


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## Jesus_marley (Sep 26, 2005)

Umm...

technically speaking, once it's dead... it doesn't poop.


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## Gnome (Sep 26, 2005)

Jesus_marley said:
			
		

> Umm...
> 
> technically speaking, once it's dead... it doesn't poop.




Okay, anything that _pooped_.  Happy now?


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## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

i know a vegan who *loves* cheese, and dairy products of all sorts.  we usually order chesse pizzas in our gaming group, and i know he dies a little inside every time because he can't have any.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 26, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if you eat chicken or fish, then "vegetarian" is not the right word for you.  (not speaking about anyone on here, even if it seems i am, just ranting about people in general).




We run into it all the time when we ask if there will be vegetarian food for my wife to eat and someone will say "Sure, we have fish."  When we try to explain that fish is in fact meat, we usually end up getting the confusion over the Catholic "no meat on Fridays but fish is perfectly OK" thing.

Wait, am I allowed to post here since I am technically not a vegetarian?  I do the cooking for three of them, does that give permission to post and not be accused of threadjacking?


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## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

the sarcasm in this thread is dripping.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 27, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Wait, am I allowed to post here since I am technically not a vegetarian?  I do the cooking for three of them, does that give permission to post and not be accused of threadjacking?




Stop threadjacking. Go back to the kitchen and make some falafal.



joe b.


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## Shemeska (Sep 27, 2005)

talinthas said:
			
		

> it's a shame that too often, diet and politics mix in western culture, when they really have no need to.




3 words: wierd white hippies.

And I say this while I eat blood drenched keishka, I went vegetarian for 10 months about 5 years ago and lost around 50 lbs eating mostly vegetables and pasta, with eggs and milk for protein. Since then however I'm simply not willing to abstain from the variety of food that the human body is geared to consume. I'm made to be an omnivore and I'll happily be one.


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## Aust Diamondew (Sep 27, 2005)

Ahnehnois said:
			
		

> Incidentally, a recent talk I was at mentioned things that various cultures did that were accepted at the time but deemed horribly immoral later, human slavery and sacrifice being obligatory examples. I suspect that in a few generations, if there are any humans left, they will probably be vegetarians.




Eating meat however is something humans have evolved to do, it's a simple fact that we are omnivores.  Not eating meat could arguably be abberant (which would give you the abberation type from the MM   ) and unatural, though I do not hold this point of view.

You saying that me eating meat is akin to slavery and human sacrifice though is offensive.  May I point out that plants are living creatures as well?  Why do you spare all of your hunger for just that one life form?  Are you trying to cause a mass plant genocide?  Just something to think about   

I do not eat alot of meat but around 3 or 4 meals a week I have a good helping of it.


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## talinthas (Sep 27, 2005)

i'm vegetarian, as i mentioned, by culture and habit.  my girlfriend, however, isnt.  she comes from a family that are bonafide foodophiles--so when she announced that she was going vegetarian some time into our relationship, it shocked the hell out of both me and her family.  If there is anything i'm staunchly against, it's missionary evangelism, so i didn't want to be the reason she went vegetarian.  But she basically was only eating chicken anyway, so apparently it wasnt too hard for her to give it up.

but still, five years later, i still wonder periodically why she would give up something just for me, especially now that we're in japan, where meat eating is a survival trait.


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## BOZ (Sep 27, 2005)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> Stop threadjacking. Go back to the kitchen and make some falafal.




mmm, yummy!


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## Voadam (Sep 27, 2005)

One of my favorite quick jokes from a comedian I can't remember:

"I'm not a vegetarian because I like animals. I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants."

I eat vegetarian meals regularly (my breakfast is usually cereal during the work week and I like cheese pizza and PB&J sandwiches) but I do not claim to be a vegetarian.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Sep 27, 2005)

As someone who grew up in farm county, I find empathy for a chicken or cow hard.  If D&D TRULY wanted to give chickens an accurate Int score it would have to be .0002.  

If you really can't bear to eat meat do to empathy with your dinner, you then need to make sure any mouse you get in your house you live-trap and release into the wild, as any mouse is smarter and equally deserving of empathy as any farm animal.

(Not codeming vegetarians, just pointing out when you make a concious decision there are sometimes un-thought of conditons that happen.  Such as no beef = no leather.  Of if you think it is wrong to kill animals, that should apply to the little critter eating your flour & leaving little presents behind).

I've been decreasing the amount of meat in my diet (and choosing healthier cuts of the meat I still eat), but am trying to include more and more veggies in my diet.

This is easy where I live as we have lots of local farms to buy produce from.  The vegetables in the supermarket ain't fit to eat, or goes bad in just a few days.  We aslo get our meat from local farms.  Open range-fed open meat is soooo much better than anything a factory farm can put out.  However, those farms have meat 12 months a year.  Veggies peter out around the end of Oct.  I've never cared for canned/frozen, so our meat diet increases when all the vegtables go bye-bye.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 27, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> We run into it all the time when we ask if there will be vegetarian food for my wife to eat and someone will say "Sure, we have fish."  When we try to explain that fish is in fact meat, we usually end up getting the confusion over the Catholic "no meat on Fridays but fish is perfectly OK" thing.
> 
> Wait, am I allowed to post here since I am technically not a vegetarian?  I do the cooking for three of them, does that give permission to post and not be accused of threadjacking?



As I'm sure you know, the issue is not non-vegitarians posting to the thread, the issue is non-vegitarians posting "hell no I wouldn't be a vegitarian and here's why!" with the not so subtle implication that vegitarianism is a Bad Choice (tm).

If there was a thread about catholicism and I posted about my son's catholic baptism, that wouldn't be rude just because I'm not catholic. However, if made a post wth the sole purpose of saying, "no way, and here's what makes catholicism a Bad Choice", that would be very rude.

Unfortunately, it seems a given that all threads on veg* diet/lifestyle will lead to this. I've seen the same reaction to discussions of both atheism and teetotalling and I have a feeling that a serious thread about celibacy would provoke similar responses as well. My best theory is that there's something a little threatening about a person who does without that which you do not or cannot.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 27, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> If you really can't bear to eat meat do to empathy with your dinner, you then need to make sure any mouse you get in your house you live-trap and release into the wild, as any mouse is smarter and equally deserving of empathy as any farm animal.
> 
> (Not codeming vegetarians, just pointing out when you make a concious decision there are sometimes un-thought of conditons that happen.  Such as no beef = no leather.  Of if you think it is wrong to kill animals, that should apply to the little critter eating your flour & leaving little presents behind).



This is a false dicotomy. Empathy with animals is at least as conditional as empathy with humans, after all. Is it fair to say that if you don't believe in slavery due to empathy with the slaves that you need to make sure that there are no prisons? If you don't want to see forced gladiator battles does that magically apply to self defense on your way home?

Personally I would prefer to exclude mice from my house over killing them, but a critter eating my food and leaving presents behind is endangering my health and that of my family, its not there by my choice and I need to decide the best way to deal with it. There's just no comparison to the choice not to have an animal bred and raised for the sole purpose of killing and eating it.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Sep 27, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> This is a false dicotomy. Empathy with animals is at least as conditional as empathy with humans, after all. Is it fair to say that if you don't believe in slavery due to empathy with the slaves that you need to make sure that there are no prisons? If you don't want to see forced gladiator battles does that magically apply to self defense on your way home?
> 
> Personally I would prefer to exclude mice from my house over killing them, but a critter eating my food and leaving presents behind is endangering my health and that of my family, its not there by my choice and I need to decide the best way to deal with it. There's just no comparison to the choice not to have an animal bred and raised for the sole purpose of killing and eating it.





1. Slaves & Prisoners are NOT the same.  (at least in modern society).  Although Prisoner can lead to Slave, that's not the point.

2. You are right about the self defence thing.  A mouse in your house can be a health issue.  I was more refering to a class of vegetarins (of which you clearly don't belong), who can't stand the fact that a living creature had to die to make a steak, yet are more than willing to poison a mole in their yard.  If you can't eat meat because of the rights of living things, you can't really justify your own whole-hearted slaughter of creatures once they inconveince you.

3.  You last sentence shows your personal beliefs about why you are a vegetarian.  I wasn't targeting you.  If fact, to a degree, I agree with you.  The mass raising of animals in confined conditions soley for the purpose of getting them fat enough to slaugher I oppose.

I don't mind vegetarians, just don't try to impose your beliefs upon me (i.e lecture why meat eating is evil; INFORMING me about facts are just fine.  I no longer eat poultry that could come from 'De-beaked' birds.  It was a vegan who let me in on this little 'secret' of the poultry world.

Also, I hope I'm not coming off as condescending.  If you choose to be a vegetarian (however you define it, from the 'Vegan' to the Everything but Mammels) is fine by me.  I've gotten some good recipies off of veggie friends.  I'm just saying you should consider, fully, your gastronomic choice.  You've clearly done so.  I'm still evaluating mine (I.e meat good, huge factory farms bad; it leads to me having to make a lot of hard choices in order to 'Walk the Walk'.

PS. Is the www.vegansociety.org the official vegan website (i.e where they define what 'vegan' means?.  If so, you can go there to find out more about a meat/animal free lifestyle.

PS2.  When does 'vegetarian' kick in for you.  Several here indicate preety much anything in the Animal Kingdom.  I know others who only kick out mammels, others who kick out killing the creatures, but their by-products (such as milk) are ok.  Others kick out mammels & birds, but fish is OK.  How low does it go?


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 27, 2005)

Just to clarify, I am not currently a vegitarian, and I never made it all the way to being one. I just felt that your example was a poor one, and (while it seems you didn't mean it that way) looked like a projection of hypocrisy on any vegitarian who doesn't strain his tea for gnats.    Which I have seen asserted and it bugs me.

Your second example I can get behind much more. If you are a vegitarian based on empathy for animals, that empathy should inform (but not control) other choices you make with regard to animals. You can also have empathy for animals without being a vegitarian, as I feel I do, and it sounds like you do. And of course you could be a vegitarian for non empathy related reasons. Just like there's a whole range of feelings on animal testing, its not a matter of "yum veal" vs st francis of assisi and anyone in between is a hypocrit.   

About lecturing... While I may have a skewed perspective, I've encounter more lecturing, self righteous meat eaters (by an order of magnitude) than the stereotypical evangelical vegitarian. They're out there and I'm sure they would annoy me, but I consider them an anomoly amoung veg*s, not the default.

P.S. To add another layer of nuance, I'm quite comfortable taking sides between animals. I hate possums because they kill cats. Are cats "really" any better than possums? no of course not, but I like cats better and I'm taking sides. (of course people who let their cats out where they are at risk from the possums bug me too....   )


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## jgbrowning (Sep 27, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> About lecturing... While I may have a skewed perspective, I've encounter more lecturing, self righteous meat eaters (by an order of magnitude) than the stereotypical evangelical vegitarian. They're out there and I'm sure they would annoy me, but I consider them an anomoly amoung veg*s, not the default.




Me as well. I think it's because the instant you say you're vegetarian many people feel the need to explain why they eat meat and why eating meat is natural or good or whatever instead of just going, ok, you don't eat meat and leaving it at that. It seems like people view it as an invitation for discussion/debate rather than as something simply a matter of fact.

But that's human nature I think. Anything that appears as a challange to any belief, no matter how the said challange is stated, tends to put people on the defensive. And it's only viewed as a challange because there *must* some reason why the vegetarian doesn't eat meat and that *must* mean they think their choice is *better* than yours so the non-veg feels the need to assert their choice as just as *better* as the veg's choice. 

Again, gotta love human nature. 

joe b.


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## Rel (Sep 27, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> As I'm sure you know, the issue is not non-vegitarians posting to the thread, the issue is non-vegitarians posting "hell no I wouldn't be a vegitarian and here's why!" with the not so subtle implication that vegitarianism is a Bad Choice (tm).




I couldn't agree with you more, Kahuna.

I admit that there is something about being confronted by vegetarianism that I feel is a challenge to me as an omnivore and I experience an innate defensiveness when the topic arises.  But I try to shut up about it unless somebody really does try and get in my face with the issue.

Too often I witness folks who are itching to catch a vegetarian in some kind of hipocracy as though they are somehow obligated to be inhumanly consistant in every one of their choices.  I believe that so long as it isn't bothering me, people can make whatever dietary and fashion choices they want, no matter how much cow or broccoli must die in order to accomodate that.  If you want to eat no meat at all yet dress only in leather and furs, that's fine by me.  

Especially if you're a hot chick!


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## talinthas (Sep 28, 2005)

as for leathers, well, india has a lot of cattle, and the reason they aren't eaten is because they provide us with milk and labor while alive, and leather after death.

of course, there is a whole class of people who are outside the caste system that deal with leather work and tanning and stuff, and they eat meat.  but that's a whole nother debate.

but yeah, i'm passively vegetarian.  i don't bring it up unless there's a reason to that impacts other people.  but man, it sure riles up some folk right quick, and they start jumping on me with all sorts of ludicrous defenses and hypotheticals (what if you were dying of starvation and the only thing around was a cow? etc).  Seriously dude, lay off.  I'm not gonna take your meat away from you, and if i did, what would i do with it anyway?


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## spider_minion (Sep 28, 2005)

I've been a vegetarian for nearly two years.  Though I had been considoring it for a while, it was ultimately reading an essay from my ethics textbook (_Vegetarianism and the "Other Weight Problem"_ by James Rachels -- http://www.stpt.usf.edu/hhl/eip/vegetarianism.pdf) that gave me the final push.  Given that we didn't eat a lot of meat in my household, it wasn't hard at all to make the switch.  I had to endured a bit of ridicule during the transition period while I explained the reason why I changed 'teams' (because I am opposed to animal suffering).  Some people view this as threatening their lifestyle, so they give lame moral reasons to justify their meat-eating habits (“I'm an omnivore”).  I certainly would like to see more people become vegetarians, but as long as other people aren't bothering me about my eating habits I'll do they same to them (not to mention it being a waste of time . . .).  Since then I've become very comfortable with it and will probably never go back.

If anyone here is interested in the moral reasons behind vegetarianism, I'd encourage them to read the linked essay.  The author makes a very thorough and readable case for it.  Also, there are a lot of soybean-based alternatives to meat products that taste about as good as the real thing (if a bit more expensive).  Other than chinese food and chicken-finger subs, there isn't much that I miss.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 28, 2005)

spider_minion said:
			
		

> Other than chinese food and chicken-finger subs, there isn't much that I miss.




Chinese food is tasty because of the sauces and spices rather than the meat (this is true of most foods IMO).  See if your chinese restaurant is willing to substitute tofu for the meat, especially if they have the fried tofu.  True that frying tofu negates many of the healthy aspects of soy, but it makes a nice substitute.  I have a friend who gets me the fired tofu from Chinatown whenever she goes there whic I use to make either my Kung Pao or my Sweet and Sour Pepper stirfry.

As for chicken-finger subs - have you tried making your own using the soy-based substitutes?  I contend that the Morningstar Farms Chk'n nuggets are virtually identical to meat nuggets in taste and texture.  Use them instead of chicken fingers (Morningstar Farms makes a soy chicken finger, but it is honey mustard flavored).


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 28, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Chinese food is tasty because of the sauces and spices rather than the meat (this is true of most foods IMO).  See if your chinese restaurant is willing to substitute tofu for the meat, especially if they have the fried tofu.  True that frying tofu negates many of the healthy aspects of soy, but it makes a nice substitute.  I have a friend who gets me the fired tofu from Chinatown whenever she goes there whic I use to make either my Kung Pao or my Sweet and Sour Pepper stirfry.




I find that frying tofu tends to block out the penetration of flavor when you cook it with stir fry... I like extra firm tofu sauted for flavor - softer, but reminds me less of flavor coated packing foam.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 28, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I find that frying tofu tends to block out the penetration of flavor when you cook it with stir fry... I like extra firm tofu sauted for flavor - softer, but reminds me less of flavor coated packing foam.




I agree with you about the flavor not penetrating as well, and I often use extra firm tofu sauteed, but some people don't like the texture of tofu, and in some of my dishes I hate the way it breaks up.  The fried tofu is much closer to that of stir fried chicken, I think, and it holds up much better.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 28, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I agree with you about the flavor not penetrating as well, and I often use extra firm tofu sauteed, but some people don't like the texture of tofu, and in some of my dishes I hate the way it breaks up.  The fried tofu is much closer to that of stir fried chicken, I think, and it holds up much better.



yeah, you can't be too rough with tofu.... If I was willing to put more work into cooking, I'd try marinating/sauteing first then fry it for the crispy texture. These days I only cook with tofu on fridays during Lent (hubby is catholic but hates fish) because the hubby is willing to accept is when he can't have meat, but doesn't see the point of cooking with it just because.


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## ecliptic (Sep 28, 2005)

To all the vegans and vegetarians. I always feel the need to warn you of he health risks of that life style. Like any other strict life style, there are side effects. B12 deficiency is not pretty and only shows up later in life and can never be reversed. 

Your body needs a constant resupply of vitamin B12. If it does not, your B12 reserves dwindle over time and cannot be replaced. B12 deficiency causes permanent damage to your nervous system aswell as many other neurological side effects.  

B12 can only be found in meat, eggs, and dairy products. Recent studies have shown that B12 analogues in plants such as seaweed while structually similar to B12, actually increase the speed of your natural B12 depletion and enhance the effects B12 deficiency.

B12 vitamin supplements are not effective because its inability to absorb through your small intestine. IYou will want to foods fortified in B12 and calcium (calcium is needed for B12 absorption) such as cereals.

Also beware if the foods you eat are fortified with plant B12 analogues. While most aren't it is best to try and confirm that they use B12 from animal protein.


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## Gnome (Sep 28, 2005)

While it's true that B12 deficiency is serious, it is quite rare in humans, even among strict (dietary) vegans.  Here's an article that discusses the subject in some detail for those who wish to know more.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 28, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> To all the vegans and vegetarians. I always feel the need to warn you of he health risks of that life style.




to all thread jackers. I always feel the need to warn you that you are being rude.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 28, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> To all the vegans and vegetarians. I always feel the need to warn you of he health risks of that life style. Like any other strict life style, there are side effects. B12 deficiency is not pretty and only shows up later in life and can never be reversed.




Someone else always feels the need so you don't have to do it anymore.

joe b.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 28, 2005)

To all the meat eaters I want to warn you of the health risks of this life style:  Heart disease, cancer and TSEs have all been linked to the consumption of meat.  

I don't think I've met a vegetarian who is not informed of how they must balance their diets in order to maintain their health.  I'm sure there are a few out there, but they are not the standard.  So, thanks for trying to help out Ecliptic, but it probably was not needed.


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## spider_minion (Sep 28, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> As for chicken-finger subs - have you tried making your own using the soy-based substitutes?  I contend that the Morningstar Farms Chk'n nuggets are virtually identical to meat nuggets in taste and texture.  Use them instead of chicken fingers (Morningstar Farms makes a soy chicken finger, but it is honey mustard flavored).




That's a really good idea.  I'll be giving it a try later tonight.   

Morningstar has and will continue to make a ton of money off me.


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## talinthas (Sep 28, 2005)

the thing that gets me?  my family has been vegetarian for thousands of years.  if there was any deficiency or problem in our diet, i'm sure someone would have noticed by now =)

/edit-  ah, b12 is in dairy.  if there is anything the hindu diet may have too much of, it's milk and milk derivatives.  lot more folks die of heart failure from too much oil and ghee in their diet than of b12 deficiencies, for sure =)


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 29, 2005)

[Post deleted]

Life's too short and this thread's been bad enough for me already.


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