# Sleep Poison not a Sleep Effect?!?!?!?!?!



## Final_boss325 (Jun 13, 2010)

This is going to sound like the stupidest question in the freaking world, but is "Sleep Poison" not a sleep effect?!

To clarify, let me provide the situation.  I was playing my Dragon Shaman (9th Lvl) last night in our bi-weekly 3.5 campaign.  I get shot with a poisoned arrow that had some sort of sleep poison on it.  I was instructed by the DM to make a fort save against the poison, to which I immediately said that I was immune to the sleep effect, due to draconic resolve.  To which he replied that Draconic Resolve only works against things like spells/spell-like abilities.  That I'm not immune to poison, so I still suffer the effects.

*Draconic Resolve* - Gained at Dragon Shaman 4th lvl.  "You are immune to sleep and paralysis effects.  You are also immune to the frightful presence of dragons."

I'm sorry, but how does a poison that has the effect of putting one to sleep, NOT COUNT AS A SLEEP EFFECT.

He told me that if I could find a rule in one of the books to back me up that It'd be okay.  Search as I did, the ruling I sought was nowhere to be found.  I can only assume that I couldn't find it because THE ANSWER IS SO FREAKING OBVIOUS IT SHOULDN'T NEED CLARIFICATION!!!

Opinions/Rulings are appreciated.


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## Volomon (Jun 13, 2010)

Pretty much basic English right there, you are immune to sleep effect, you are not immune to poison however the poison's effect is sleep, so you are immune to the effect of the poison.  In other words, yes you have to roll your Fort Save, however it really makes no sense to because although you can fail the Save you can not be affected by the out come.

I really don't see how your DM didn't realize this.


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## Arduin Angcam (Jun 13, 2010)

Hi,

Seems like your DM has mistaken your dragon shaman ability with the sleep immunity of elves. The latter is precisely defined as "magic sleep effects" (source : SRD 3.5/races) whereas Draconic resolve isn't worded the same and seems to include all kind of sleep and paralysis effects. I won't throw him the first stone though as I'd have probably reacted the same on the fly as a DM. 

Hope this helps.

Arduin.


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## IronWolf (Jun 13, 2010)

Arduin Angcam said:


> Hi,
> Seems like your DM has mistaken your dragon shaman ability with the sleep immunity of elves. The latter is precisely defined as "magic sleep effects" (source : SRD 3.5/races) whereas Draconic resolve isn't worded the same and seems to include all kind of sleep and paralysis effects. I won't throw him the first stone though as I'd have probably reacted the same on the fly as a DM.




This is likely the case.  Might be worth showing him the phrasing for the sleep immunity of elves compared to the draconic resolve in a non-confrontational manner so he can see the difference in wording.


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## Runestar (Jun 13, 2010)

Which poison is your DM using? I have yet to see a poison which explicitly lists "sleep" as the effect, all list "unconscious", even drow sleep poison.

So yes, I would rule that "sleep" poison would ignore sleep immunity, since it is not really a "sleep" effect, it merely replicates its effects. Plus, I don't see how your dragon shaman can withstand anesthesia being pumped into him.


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## IronWolf (Jun 13, 2010)

Runestar said:


> Which poison is your DM using? I have yet to see a poison which explicitly lists "sleep" as the effect, all list "unconscious", even drow sleep poison.




I had wondered about this angle as well, since we don't know for certain what poison was used since the original post says "I get shot with a poisoned arrow that had some sort of sleep poison on it".  

Knowing the exact poison used could make a difference in the ruling.  Good catch Runestar.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2010)

Runestar said:


> Which poison is your DM using? I have yet to see a poison which explicitly lists "sleep" as the effect, all list "unconscious", even drow sleep poison.
> 
> So yes, I would rule that "sleep" poison would ignore sleep immunity, since it is not really a "sleep" effect, it merely replicates its effects. Plus, I don't see how your dragon shaman can withstand anesthesia being pumped into him.



FWIW, many monsters have poison that has sleep as an effect (pseudodragons are a low-CR example).  So it really would depend on the type of poison.


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## Volomon (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm assuming he meant actual sleep poison since it was quoted, but if the DM called it sleep poison and it wasn't it was still his mistake.


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## Eldritch_Lord (Jun 13, 2010)

Runestar said:


> So yes, I would rule that "sleep" poison would ignore sleep immunity, since it is not really a "sleep" effect, it merely replicates its effects. Plus, I don't see how your dragon shaman can withstand anesthesia being pumped into him.




That's twisting the semantics, I think.  Anything in the game that does something is an "effect" whether it's a spell, SLA, monster ability, or anything else.  If you're immune to sleep effects, you're immune to _sleep_ and _deep slumber_, a dragon's sleep breath, sleep poison, and anything else that would cause you to sleep.

As Volomon noted, he isn't immune to poison, so if for example the poison's damage was "sleep and 1d2 Dex" for whatever reason, he'd still take the Dex damage, but he still wouldn't be put to sleep; a sleep effect is a sleep effect is a sleep effect.


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## Final_boss325 (Jun 13, 2010)

Drow sleep poison.  And as for the whole "unconsciousness" vs. "sleep" semantic issue.  Sleep isn't even a status effect in the DMG.  Even the spells that cause sleep don't really mention sleep beyond the title.  However they do mention "become unconscious".  So I don't even see how the argument is valid anymore.


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## frankthedm (Jun 13, 2010)

Drow poison is unconscious, edit, _at least_ since 2E. Pseudodragon poison deals out sleep.

*3.5*
_Drow usually coat their arrows with a potent venom.
*
Poison (Ex)*
An opponent hit by a drow’s poisoned weapon must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or fall unconscious. After 1 minute, the subject must succeed on another DC 13 Fortitude save or remain unconscious for 2d4 hours. A typical drow carries 1d4-1 doses of drow knockout poison. Drow typically coat arrows and crossbow bolts with this poison, but it can also be applied to a melee weapon. Note that drow have no special ability to apply poison without risking being poisoned themselves. Since this poison is not a magical effect, drow and other elves are susceptible to it. 


A pseudodragon can deliver a vicious bite, but its principal weapon is its sting-equipped tail.
*
Poison (Ex)*
Injury, Fortitude DC 14, initial damage sleep for 1 minute, secondary damage sleep for 1d3 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus. _


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## Final_boss325 (Jun 14, 2010)

Once again, your argument is all about semantics.  Allow me to define the word sleep if I may:

*Sleep*:  An UNCONSCIOUS state the body enters in order to repair itself.

To further the debate the way I see it is the dragon shaman has dedicated his life to emulating dragons, including their ability to shake off any unnatural attempts to render them unconscious, magical or otherwise.

Sleep effects, AFIK, have never been officially defined by WOTC.  I believe this is because it should be obvious.  A sleep effect is any that would immediately render the target unconscious.  Obviously, some things would get around this, such as non-lethal damage.

The idea that anyone could say that SLEEP POISON is not a sleep effect, when it's in the name, just because it doesn't say "sleep" as the effect, is just utter nonsense.  It doesn't make sense in any way, shape, or form.


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## frankthedm (Jun 14, 2010)

Final_boss325 said:


> The idea that anyone could say that SLEEP POISON is not a sleep effect, when it's in the name, just because it doesn't say "sleep" as the effect,



Where are you getting the term "sleep poison"? it is not in the poison entry or the Elf :: d20srd.org of the SRD. Do the written entries in the physical DMG or MM use different wording?


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## Final_boss325 (Jun 14, 2010)

frankthedm said:


> Where are you getting the term "sleep poison"? it is not in the poison entry or the Elf :: d20srd.org of the SRD. Do the written entries in the physical DMG or MM use different wording?




You're completely missing the issue.  If one is rendered unconscious, you fall to the ground, eyes closed, unresponsive but breathing.  If one is made to fall asleep, you fall to the ground, eyes closed, unresponsive but breathing.

Have you ever heard the phrase: "If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and moves like a duck, then guess what, it's a duck!"?

The point I'm trying to make is, that no matter what the wording, if the end result is the same, the effect is the same.  

I mean, if you got hit with a poison that was called "Paralysis Poison", but the effect did not say "Paralysis".  Instead it said that the target immediately ceases moving and appears rigid as if a statue.  Would you say that paralysis and that effect are different?!

If this is the case, I would say that an extreme amount of logic is missing from your argument.


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## pawsplay (Jun 14, 2010)

Except that sleep and unconciousness are not at all the same. For instance, a sleeping person can be awakened.


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## Final_boss325 (Jun 14, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Except that sleep and unconciousness are not at all the same. For instance, a sleeping person can be awakened.




Find me where it says an unconscious person can't be awakened at all, and I might buy that logic.


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## pawsplay (Jun 14, 2010)

Final_boss325 said:


> Find me where it says an unconscious person can't be awakened at all, and I might buy that logic.




Sure.



> Unconscious
> Knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.




There ya go. Unconscious characters are always knocked out and helpless.


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## Final_boss325 (Jun 14, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Sure.
> 
> 
> 
> There ya go. Unconscious characters are always knocked out and helpless.




The example you provided only entails when a character is between -1 to -9 hit points.  As I stated with non-lethal damage, these would be exceptions to my argument.  As they are natural, physical examples of being rendered unconscious.

When I said find me where unconscious characters cannot be woken up, I meant an example where an effect has rendered a character unconscious (not asleep), and says he cannot be awakened.


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## frankthedm (Jun 14, 2010)

Another way to get knocked unconscious.

_*Ability Damaged*
A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious._


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## Final_boss325 (Jun 14, 2010)

frankthedm said:


> Another way to get knocked unconscious.
> 
> _*Ability Damaged*
> A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious._




Yet again, another physical example.  The fact remains that I haven't seen a convincing example of why a character with immunity to sleep effects would be affected by sleep poison, whether or not the effect is unconsciousness.  

The fact that sleep is not in the list of status effects says to me that there is no concrete definition as to what a sleep effect is.  Therefore, as far as I can see, any unphysical effect that would cause unconsciousness should be defined as a sleep effect.


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## Ashtagon (Jun 14, 2010)

Weird issue here.

You say immune to sleep effects obviously covers sleep poison, so they didn't write it in.

Someone else says immune to sleep effects obviously doesn't covers sleep poison, so they didn't  write it in.

Who is to say either is right?


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## frankthedm (Jun 14, 2010)

> Final_boss325 said:
> 
> 
> > The fact that sleep is not in the list of status effects says to me that there is no concrete definition as to what a sleep effect is.
> ...


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## Vegepygmy (Jun 14, 2010)

Final_boss325 said:


> The fact remains that I haven't seen a convincing example of why a character with immunity to sleep effects would be affected by sleep poison, whether or not the effect is unconsciousness.



I think you've gotten your answer, and just don't like it.

Which I can understand. It _does_ seem unfair that immunity to sleep effects would not protect one from "drow sleep poison." But there is definitely a cogent argument that it doesn't.


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## Siuis (Jun 14, 2010)

Final_boss325 said:
			
		

> Once again, your argument is all about semantics.  Allow me to define the word sleep if I may:
> 
> Sleep:  An UNCONSCIOUS state the body enters in order to repair itself.
> 
> ...




Actually, if dragons resisted all attempts to render them non-conscious, why don't they benefit from the Diehard feat at all times and have a sidebar saying that nonlethal damage and suffocation cannot render them unconscious? Because they would have to have full-spectrum protection for your claim to have merit.

Yes, it didn't specify magical sleep, but as any drunk can tell you, sleep and being poisoned past consciousness are different. It's sort of a jerk-move, but unconsciousness poison does affect the shaman. 

He'll, it may have been designed by the DM to specifically affect said shaman, since the player was in a position where he expected his protection to kick in (saying "I'm immune" when the DM only asked for a fort save means he knew what the affect should be).



> Yet again, another physical example.  The fact remains that I haven't seen a convincing example of why a character with immunity to sleep effects would be affected by sleep poison, whether or not the effect is unconsciousness.




So you are willing to have a poison that arbitrarily deals, we'll say 100 damage to a mental ability score, can render you unconscious because the rules say so (no further explanation needed) but a poison thatrenders you unconscious can't do so because there is no definition in-game specifically separating sleep and unconsciousness, despite multiple cited in-game examples (which, to use your own argument, should be obvious enough they don't need further explanation)?
It seems like the answer, while painful, is right there. What is the difference between asphyxiation via blocked airway, and asphyxiation via a toxin which renders your blood less able to process oxygen? Unconscious is just that. Sleep is definitely something different, and saying "you can't cite the most obvious evidence as proof" in the case of nonlethal damage is just... Well, trying to bully your way into finding support. No rule to my memory says you should stay conscious, but several I can recall (but not cite, I'm afraid) specify that poison can bypass the usual sleep immunity (as with elves).


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## Final_boss325 (Jun 14, 2010)

Siuis said:


> Actually, if dragons resisted all attempts to render them non-conscious, why don't they benefit from the Diehard feat at all times and have a sidebar saying that nonlethal damage and suffocation cannot render them unconscious? Because they would have to have full-spectrum protection for your claim to have merit.
> 
> Yes, it didn't specify magical sleep, but as any drunk can tell you, sleep and being poisoned past consciousness are different. It's sort of a jerk-move, but unconsciousness poison does affect the shaman.
> 
> ...




Wow...jeez.  Where to start with that one?

1.  About two posts ago I even said that physical things that cause unconsciousness would be exceptions, such as non-lethal damage, being in negative hit points, and having a zero strength score.  The ability says sleep effects, not unconscious situations.

2.  The fact that sleep isn't in the list of status effects in the DMG leads me to believe that there is no concrete definition of a sleep effect.  Reading the description of the sleep spells, i believe they were implying unconscious.

3.  I can't buy the whole "It says unconsciousness as the effect so obviously it doesn't cause sleep" thing.  This is just arguing semantics.

4.  I never said I should be immune to all the effects of said poison, just the sleep effect.  If it had a 1d4 dex and unconsciousness effect, I believe I would take the dex damage, but not the other effect.

5.  I stated the literal definition of sleep earlier.  Even with rudimentary logic, one can figure out that sleep poison=tranquilizer.  People snore, dream and wake refreshed from tranquilizers (As long as they don't abuse them.)  UNCONSCIOUSNESS=SLEEP.

6.  As for being poisoned past consciousness?  The dragon shaman has dedicated his life to emulating dragons.  Including learning how to shake off things that would UNNATURALLY cause him to suddenly lose consciousness, magical or otherwise.  He wouldn't spend time worrying about unconscious vs. sleep. 

7.  If the poison was designed to work on me, there was no mention of this.  I'll clarify the situation a little more in a sec.

8.  THE WHOLE ARGUMENT OF THIS POST FROM THE BEGINNING WAS THE DM SAYING MY ABILITY ONLY WORKS ON SPELL OR SLAs THAT CAUSE SLEEP, WHEN OBVIOUSLY IT WORKS ON ALL SLEEP EFFECTS.

9.  And finally, I stand by old argument of "If it's called a sleep poison, (as it was to me) it's a sleep effect.

Apparently, as I've discovered, the encounter was one of those "supposed to lose fights".  I despise these things but that's beyond the point.  We were under attack by bounty hunters that were trying to capture us alive.  If we're going to go through one of these stupid things, I would think that the DM would be a little more creative with things rather than saying "Uh...this sleep effect does work on you".  There were a lot of ways he could have handled it, and he took the "DM magic" route.  I'm sorry but if my immune-to-sleep-effects character is going to be put to sleep by your poison, you better be able to tell me how/where/when/and from who this poison came from (keeping player knowledge and character knowledge separate), and it better be good.  "DM magic" doesn't fly with me...and I guess that's why I'm so frustrated.

Logic is the name of the game here.  Not rules nazi-ing.  When the end result is the same I believe the effect is the same.  Allow me to show an example:

1+1+1+1+1 = 5

Both sides of the equation say the same thing...just in different ways.  One may look longer and more complicated but they equal out to the same thing.


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## irdeggman (Jun 14, 2010)

Final_boss325 said:


> Wow...jeez.  Where to start with that one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Final_boss325 (Jun 14, 2010)

Alright.  I'm tired of arguing.  I'm just gonna look at it like my character saw all his comrades going down from the poison and forgot he's immune to the crap.   Maybe sometime I'll post the build...ask for opinions on that.

I bow down to the board's superior logic and shame myself in response to my overwhelming inadequacies.  

Seriously, thanks for the help.


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## Runestar (Jun 14, 2010)

Aha! Found it!!! From page 98 of the FAQ,



> _Dragons are immune to sleep and paralysis effects. Does this include “unconsciousness” effects, such as from drow poison or a color spray spell?_
> 
> No. Both sleep and paralysis effects create specific conditions defined in the rules (although the “sleeping” condition created by most sleep effects is typically defined in the effect, rather than the glossary). Unconsciousness is an entirely different condition, and dragons are not immune to becoming unconscious.



Do note I am not attempting to gloat or anything, since I reviewed my post and thought the tone might have come across as just a tad arrogant. I know I ruled the I did because I read said article years ago, and am elated at having found it again.


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## Final_boss325 (Jun 14, 2010)

Runestar said:


> Aha! Found it!!! From page 98 of the FAQ,
> 
> Do note I am not attempting to gloat or anything, since I reviewed my post and thought the tone might have come across as just a tad arrogant. I know I ruled the I did because I read said article years ago, and am elated at having found it again.




Wow.  Just after I've surrendered you actually find proof of it.  Crap, why couldn't you have found that a lot earlier?! Lol.  Big thanks, now I know, once and for all, officially, that I am wrong.  Thanks.

On a lighter note, if I wanted to post my build, can I do it here?  Or should I start a new thread?


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## amethal (Jun 14, 2010)

For what its worth :-



> Since this poison is not a magical effect, drow and other elves are susceptible to it




That implies that drow would otherwise be immune to their "unconsciousness" poison by virtue of their immunity to (magical) sleep.


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## frankthedm (Jun 14, 2010)

Final_boss325 said:


> Wow.  Just after I've surrendered you actually find proof of it.  Crap, why couldn't you have found that a lot earlier?! Lol.  Big thanks, now I know, once and for all, officially, that I am wrong.  Thanks.



Big reason is that a lot of folks around here feel the official FAQ has made some questionable decisions and thus they don't give it much weight. 


This ruleset rather than operate by human logic sometimes seems to operates by computer logic.

Rather than a half dragon Giant being effected by anti giant abilities because "Hey he is still half giant", instead you go to the *Type:* entry, which was *changed* from Giant to Dragon by the Half-Dragon Template.

A GM who want to make make changes to a game he is running is well within his/her prerogative. Indeed many times a poster will point out how things work by the Rules As Written {RAW} but add a caveat about how they believe the Rules as Intended {RAI} should work or they might simplly state how they feel how things ought to be.



Final_boss325 said:


> On a lighter note, if I wanted to post my build, can I do it here?  Or should I start a new thread?



I doubt anyone would mind either way. You could even EDIT your title of the first post to rename the thread for that purpose.


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## Siuis (Jun 14, 2010)

Ugh. Designed to Lose fights are the worst. If they lack the chance, no matter how remote, that you can win... It's not a fight, it's a cut-scene. No-one likes huge character alterations from cut-scenes. 

And appologies for not finding the proof meself, I was browsing before bed and couldn't be bothered to look up anything until today.  It *did* sound like you had found the proof yourself and chose to dismiss it though. That's likely where a lot of the vehemence came in. Try telling the DM you'd prefer a little more trust in him, and that can't happen if he is forcing things on the party in an unbeleiveable way (the party losing and not knowing it was designed that way is fine; auto-winning is not).


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## pawsplay (Jun 15, 2010)

Final_boss325 said:


> The example you provided only entails when a character is between -1 to -9 hit points.  As I stated with non-lethal damage, these would be exceptions to my argument.  As they are natural, physical examples of being rendered unconscious.
> 
> When I said find me where unconscious characters cannot be woken up, I meant an example where an effect has rendered a character unconscious (not asleep), and says he cannot be awakened.




Show me where it says a petrified character cannot be awakened. Just give 'em a good ol' slap, right?

Because unconscious does not list away to become conscious, other than losing the unconscious condition, that's why. There are NO exceptions stated in the description of unconscious I listed.

In any case, sleep and unconsciousness, in real life, are completely different.


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## Runestar (Jun 15, 2010)

> Big reason is that a lot of folks around here feel the official FAQ has  made some questionable decisions and thus they don't give it much  weight.




Which means we must weigh each argument based on its own individual merits, rather than rejecting or accepting them outright simply because they are from the FAQ.

At any rate, I feel the FAQ's response is quite reasonable, the way it makes the distinction between sleep and unconsciousness.


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## Final_boss325 (Jun 15, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Show me where it says a petrified character cannot be awakened. Just give 'em a good ol' slap, right?
> 
> Because unconscious does not list away to become conscious, other than losing the unconscious condition, that's why. There are NO exceptions stated in the description of unconscious I listed.
> 
> In any case, sleep and unconsciousness, in real life, are completely different.




Okay pawsplay...I already gave up, you can stop arguing now.  There's no more battle to be fought.

Anyways, for those interested, my dragon shaman build!

I decided to take dragon shaman all the way to 20 and I've decided each feat up until level 12.  I have no idea what to take anymore that would be useful around the time I would take it.  I stay a dragon shaman to get full progression of the breath weapon and auras.  I decided my first two feats would be shield related.  I had originally decided to take one level of barbarian and take Extra Rage and Power Attack as my Level one feats, but quickly learned that power attacking with a 2/3 BAB is the suck.  I decided to go front-line melee, at least for my first two feats.  The rest would be meta-breath/DDA.

CN Human Red Dragon Shaman
1.  Shield Specialization (Heavy), Heavy Armor Proficiency
3.  Shield Ward
6.  Clinging Breath
9.  Maximize Breath
12. Double Draconic Aura
15. ?
18. ?

On a side note, if I combine Maximize Breath and Clinging Breath, how much clinging damage do they take?  
Example:  Currently my breath weapon does 4d6 damage.  Maximized, it does 24.  Do they take 12 damage each round?  Or do they take half of 4d6?


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