# (IR) Announcing a New Strategic Roleplaying Campaign of Epic Proportions!



## Serpenteye (Nov 1, 2004)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=109539

Take control over a nation, a race, an empire or an alliance and lead them to greatness. Advance, trough magic, technology, diplomacy and war, to create a utopian society or elevate yourself to Godhood. Destroy your enemies or convert them to your cause until you, and only you, are the supreme ruler of the world. The Revolution is coming... and everything is about to change. 

The Industrial Revolution is about to return to Oerth, the world of Greyhawk, but I need you to play. I'm still figuring out the rules and the background, I've been figuring them out on and off for several years now, but before I commit them to the internet I want to know if there's still an interest for this kind of game.

The IR has a long and proud legacy. Edena of Neith was the original creator of the idea and his brilliant four IR games, particularly the magnificent 3rd IR, is the reason and inspiration behind this attempt of a game. I owe you a lot, Edena, and before this game is done I will owe you even more since I will borrow a lot from you. I will also most likely borrow some of the ideas and rules behind Creamsteak's Rokugan Revolution, a great game that ended too soon. But, in the end, I hope and intend that this game will be unique, mine. Ours. The rules will be different, the plot will be different, the factions will be different, the DM will be different, but I hope that a lot of the players will be the same. Edena, if you're reading this, consider yourself invited. 

The game will be loosely based on DnD 3,5, but you don't really have to know the rules. The scale of this game will be strategic, and though your Player Characters are the most important people in the world the details of their character sheets will most likely not matter. What matters is their general level and HD, and wether they are arcane, divine, warrior-classes, tech, or psionic. DnD is not built for a game of this scale, there will be too many battles with too many combatants of too high levels for me to be able to judge them according to the DMG.

There is a lot more to write. I could sit here typing all day and there would still be much more to write. But first I need to know if anyone's interested.

The game will start in the beginning of December (barring unexpected tragedies, like noone wanting to play, or mishaps, like my computer (or myself) spontaneously combusting). There is no hard limit to the amount of player's I want, but between 10 and 20 dedicated players would be ideal.


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## Eluvan (Nov 1, 2004)

This seems very interesting, I think I could definitely be enticed by this. But I need to be clear on exactly how the game would be played. Will it basically be a roleplaying game but with epic-scale consequences and based around strategic decisions? Or will parts of it start to resemble a wargame of some sort, with us commanding the forces specifically? If the former, I definitely want in. If the latter... nah, not so much. So if you could explain a little more of what you're intending in terms of gameplay style, I cna tell you whether to chalk me up.


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## Serpenteye (Nov 1, 2004)

Hi Eluvan.

The game will be a little of both, actually. The players have a lot of freedom in how they want to play. Some might want to focus on character-development and role-playing, while others are more into the strategy-gaming aspect and others combine the two. You don't have to command any armies or build a single factory unless you want to, and you can still be a force to be reconed with. Or you can make very simple and brief strategic decicions for your armies and leave it up to me to take care of the details according to my impression of your faction. Naturally, players who take a more hands-on approach will have a considerable advantage, but it's a choice you get to make from day to day.
 It will be a lot like the previous IR-games here on EN-world, the 3rd IR in particular, but since those threads are several hundred pages of text it's not required reading .
The game will not be about a group of high-level characters going monster-slaying, though there will certainly be plenty of killing of monsters (and people, puppies, babies and the undead) involved. You are a leader of a faction first and foremost, though your faction can be anything from an old-ladies knitting club to a continent-spanning empire. Role-playing and interacting with the other players and NPC's (Like Vecna, for example) is the most important part of the game. Diplomacy, more than anything else, is really the key to power.


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## Eluvan (Nov 1, 2004)

Then, I think I definitely want in.  What I'd really like to do is to head an underground organisation with political links and ties, kinda like a 'power behind the throne' thing. Think sort of a Greyhawk illuminatus. Would that be possible? My character would probably be primarily a rogue or bard, perhaps with levels in an arcane or psionic class as well. Like maybe Enchanter, Illusionist or Telepath. 

 What do you think?

 Oh, and do you think you could provide a link to the 3rd IR thread you mentioned so I can scan over it and get an idea of what this is going to resemble? Thanks.


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## Serpenteye (Nov 1, 2004)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> Then, I think I definitely want in.  What I'd really like to do is to head an underground organisation with political links and ties, kinda like a 'power behind the throne' thing. Think sort of a Greyhawk illuminatus. Would that be possible? My character would probably be primarily a rogue or bard, perhaps with levels in an arcane or psionic class as well. Like maybe Enchanter, Illusionist or Telepath.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Oh, and do you think you could provide a link to the 3rd IR thread you mentioned so I can scan over it and get an idea of what this is going to resemble? Thanks.




I think that would be great. Where would the organization be located?

Link to the 3rd IR:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/foru...stpost&sortorder=asc&daysprune=1000&x=14&y=13

I will write a list of some of the available factions that players can choose from soonish and begin to put together a map.
 I forgot to mention this earlier, but the IR will take place 20 years after the Greyhawk War when advanced (19th-20th C) technology first appears on the planet and the crystal sphere is cut off from all interactions with the rest of the Multiverse. Incidentally, the major Gods will also be cut off from the world and unable to influence the game. Deities, such as Iuz, who live on Oerth are still playable. And other Gods may rise from the ranks of the PCs, but that's going to be pretty hard to do.
There are a number of links to the world of Greyhawk in William Ronald's stickied thread in this forum. If you want you can read up on the history of the setting there and take a look at the official maps.


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## Eluvan (Nov 1, 2004)

> Where would the organization be located?




 Hmmm. Good question. It suddenly dawns on me that I know very little of the world of Greyhawk. Is that going to be a big issue? I'll do my best of course, but I might need occassional correction or information on locations, political systems, etc. Like right now, I could use some help on where would be appropriate for such an organisation to be centred.


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## Serpenteye (Nov 1, 2004)

It might be somewhat of an issue in the beginning, in part depending on how many players we get, since you'd be playing a very politically extroverted faction, spying and manipulating all over the place. If the previous IRs are any indication, though, we're soon going to make the setting nearly unrecognizable. And if a lot of players join in that might happen even before the start of the game.
I don't think you'll need a lot of knowledge in any case. I knew very little about the setting when I started playing in the 3rd IR, and I managed. 

A good location for your organization would be the City of Greyhawk. It's big, wealthy and cosmopolitical. The geographical, political and economical heart of the Flannaes in official canon.


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## Eluvan (Nov 1, 2004)

Okay then, the City of Greyhawk it is. Sounds fine.


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## Serpenteye (Nov 1, 2004)

It should work out well. The city is a very central and strategic location, a continental crossroads.  

Ok, you're in. Welcome .
--

Anyone else?


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## Knight Otu (Nov 1, 2004)

That should be interesting... Now, where did I put my Greyhawk gazetteer?


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## Blue_Genie (Nov 1, 2004)

I'd also be interested in giving this a try, although I would be drawn more to playing forces on the extreme.  It's been a while since I picked up my Gazetteer, but here are some groups/countries I'd be interested in.

Iuz (Nothing says industrial revolution like mindless undead bent over assembly lines.  It's Henry Ford's wet dream 

Celene (How do we keep them from chopping down our trees?  The mechanically-minded races have pushed our backs against the wall.  Now it's us or them.  It's time to bring out the big guns.)

Scarlet Brotherhood (The first multinational?)

Dwarven/Gnome Union of Iron Hills Steel Workers (You call that a mechanical lathe?  That human garbage isn't dwarf-forged, and has none of the ingenuity of our gnome clockworks!)


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## Xael (Nov 1, 2004)

Epic? Empires? Taking over the world? I'm interested, though I know nothing about Greyhawk.


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## Lichtenhart (Nov 2, 2004)

I cannot participate to this IR, but as a former IR player I can't help but wish you fun and glory. 

Saying this I also subscribe to this thread. Quoting a character that I'm sure Serpenteyes appreciates a lot "_We will watch your career with great interest._"


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## Serpenteye (Nov 2, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> That should be interesting... Now, where did I put my Greyhawk gazetteer?




Welcome Knight Otu, nice to see you again. 



			
				Blue_Genie said:
			
		

> I'd also be interested in giving this a try, although I would be drawn more to playing forces on the extreme.  It's been a while since I picked up my Gazetteer, but here are some groups/countries I'd be interested in.
> 
> Iuz (Nothing says industrial revolution like mindless undead bent over assembly lines.  It's Henry Ford's wet dream
> 
> ...




Welcome, Blue_Genie 

Either of those factions would be viable.

Iuz would get a special advantage from being a demigod in this setting since all planar communications have been cut off and divine casters can no longer recieve spells from their deities in the outer planes. (My solution to deal with the problem of assembly-line-resurrections and make the game a bit more lethal. What's the point of killing people if they don't stay dead? (It also fits into the story-line))
Iuz, as a Demigod would be able to grant his clerics 0 and 1st level spells. (lesser Gods could grant 0-4th, intermediate Gods 0-8th and greater gods 0-12th.) Even those lowly orisons and 1st level spells would somewhat reduce the casualty-rates of your armies by healing wounds that would otherwise become infected. Arcane spells are of course a lot more deadly, and their use is unrestricted by the planar isolation, but thir role is different.

Celene might be a bit weak on it's own, but there are other elven nations out there that could join into the same faction.

Technology... I won't say too much yet, but it's origins are a bit darker than mere human... You could even say that it's diabolic. (though technology in itself has no alignment) 



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> Epic? Empires? Taking over the world? I'm interested, though I know nothing about Greyhawk.




Welcome Xael , perhaps you would like to play a wizardly faction? The Circle of Eight will have a lot of fire-power, though not so much in the way of economical reasources. Or perhaps one of the big empires? The Great Kingdom, The Kevellond League, The Bakluni Empire and some of the exotic empires of the west are all going to be big, powerful, populous and vulnerable... 



			
				Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> I cannot participate to this IR, but as a former IR player I can't help but wish you fun and glory.
> 
> Saying this I also subscribe to this thread. Quoting a character that I'm sure Serpenteyes appreciates a lot "_We will watch your career with great interest._"




I'm sorry to hear that Lichtenhart, and thanks, but I hope we'll give you a good read at least. And maybe your calendar will clear up a little. Were not starting until December.
I am unfamiliar with that quote, though I'm sure that when you tell me where it's from I'll slap myself in exasperation. 

--

To all: 

I apologize for my current incoherency. The purpose of this thread is mostly to gauge your interest in the game and allow me to share some of my thoughts with you. Well before the game starts I will put together a comprehensive post where all the rules, background information and factions will be presented clearly and as succinctly as possible. Until then, please forgive my ramblings. I write them here not to intimidate you but to begin to prepare you for what is to come.

*Btw, if any of you have a small amount of space available on your internet-site it would be a great place for me to put the maps we're going to need for this game. As the game pregresses and the borders change it would be very convenient for everyone if you could easily know the lay of the land simply by clicking on a link. *


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## Lichtenhart (Nov 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I am unfamiliar with that quote, though I'm sure that when you tell me where it's from I'll slap myself in exasperation.




It's what the newly elected Chancellor Palpatine says to the young Anakin Skywalker at the end of Star Wars Episode 1.


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## Serpenteye (Nov 2, 2004)

Here is a preliminary list of some of the playable countries. I will, in due time, set various ratings and levels for the different countries to reflect their populations, productivity, military power and so on:

Minor nations of the NW:
Suel Barbarians (Snow-, Ice- and Frost-barbarians and Ratik.) The Bone March (Mostly Orcs). The Theocracy of the Pale (Human). The tribes of the Griff Mountains and Raker Mountains (Humanoids and monsters of many kinds. The tribes of the Timberway Forest (Elves, Fey, Humanoids and Monsters of many kinds). Gamboge Forest (the same) The Troll Fens (Mostly Trolls). Phostwood (Tenha partisans, Undead, various Monsters). Fellreev Forest (anti-Iuz partisans, various Monsters)

The Great Kingdom:
(Mostly Humans)
(Northern Aerdy, United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Almor, Rel Astra, the Sea Barons.)

Minor nations of the SE:
Irongate (Dwarven, major city). Iron Hills (Dwarven). Sunndi (Human). Lendore Isles (Elven). Grandwood Forest (Elven, Fey, Human).

Scarlet Brotherhood:
(Suel Humans, Monsters.)
(Tilvanot Peninsula, Lordship of the Isles, The coast of Hepmonaland, Onwall, Idee, The Olman Islands, The coast of the Amedio Jungle, The Hold of The Sea Princes.

Greater Nyrond:
(Mostly Human)
(Nyrond, Almor, Flinty Hills (Dwarves, Gnomes), The Celadon Forest (Elves, Fey), The Duchy of Urnst, The County of Urnst.

Empire of Iuz:
(Undead, Goblinoid, Orc, Human, Demon)
Stonehold, The Empire of Iuz, Tenh, The Bandit Kingdoms. 

The Kevellond League:
(Human, Halfling, Gnome, Elf, Dwarf)
The Shieldlands, The Kingdom of Furyondy, Veluna, Verbobonc, Dyvers, Bissel Gran March, the Kingdom of Keoland.

The Domain of Greyhawk*:
(Greyhawk (metropolis), Hardby, Cairn Hills, Gnarley Forest). 
*Power behind the Throne: Eluvan. 

The Empire of the Pomarj:
(Orc)

Celene:
(Elven)

The Lortmil Confederacy:
(The most powerful dwarven nation)
The Lortmil Mountains (Dwarf), The Lortmil Underdark (Dwarf), The Kron Hills (Gnome), The Lorridges (Human, Gnome, Dwarf), The Duchy of Ulek (Human, Dwarf), the County of Ulek (Human, Dwarf), The Principality of Ulek (Human, Dwarf).   

Minor Nations and Regions of the SW:
Dreadwood (Monsters, Goblinoids). The Yeomanry (Human). Sterich (Human). Geoff (Humans under Giant rule). The Crystalmists Mountains (Humanoids, Giants, Monsters) The Crystalmists Underdark (Drow). The Joten Mountains (Giants). The Hellfurnaces (Humanoid, Gaints, Monsters). The Hellfurnaces Underdark (Drow, Formians). The Valley of the Mage (Powerful Wizard and his slaves).

Minor Nations and Regions of the NW: 
Ket (Bakluni Humans), The Yatil Mountains (Giants, Dragons, Humanoids, Monsters). Tusman Hills (Bakluni Humans). Highfolk (Elves). Vesve Forest (Elves, Treants, Fey, Monsters). Perrenland (Human). Wolf Nomads (Human). Tiger Nomads (Human). Burneal Forest (Quaggoth, Monsters). Cold Marshes (Undead). Blackmoor (Undead, Human). Land of Black Ice (Unknown)

The Bakluni Empire:
(Bakluni Humans)
(The Zultanate of Zeif, The Caliphate of Ekbir, Tusmit, Udgru Forest, The Plains of the Paynims, Ull.

--
The Nations of the West: 



			
				Skip Williams said:
			
		

> Barbarian Seameast: A windswept land covered with primeval forests where fiery but convivial tribesmen dwell.
> Celestial Imperium: A vast nation peopled with a hard-working peasantry ruled by a complex bureaucracy.
> Dragons Island: Tales from the Celestial Imperium speak of a land ruled by a dragon prince.  If such a place exists, it probably lies here.
> Elvanian Forest: An enclave of lofty trees clinging to foothills rising from the desert below.  Elves and other wild sylvan races dwell here.
> ...




Organizations not primarily based on a specific location:

The Circle of Eight:
(A powerful group of Neutral high level Wizards)

The Black Brotherhood:
(An undercover organization inflitrating the Scarlet Brotherhood, seeking to bring about an apocalypse)

Various Churches:
(Though they have lost all their spellcasting-ability many clergies still hold considerable power over the peoples of Oerth)


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## Serpenteye (Nov 2, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> It's what the newly elected Chancellor Palpatine says to the young Anakin Skywalker at the end of Star Wars Episode 1.




Ah. Palpatine, the soon-to be-Emperor who would mismanage his Empire disastrously and drive it into rebellion against himself. Not a good role-model at all .


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## Serpenteye (Nov 2, 2004)

In this post I give you some of the background behind the events of the revolution.


We know a little of how the planes work. The Great Wheel. The Inner Planes. The Outer Planes. The Outlands. The Prime Material Plane. We know that when a being dies their soul travels to the plane of it's alignment and there it gains life again in a new form. We know that when that new form eventually dies its energies join the plane it lived on. Those energies strengthen the plane and as the plane grows stronger the power of the alignment it represents grows stronger. We know that the Multiverse if infinite, that every true plane in the Multiverse is infinite and that every level of such a plane is also infinite. But we also know that all planes have a finite amount of levels. All planes but one.

We have some knowledge about the inhabitants of the different planes. We know that some planes are populated by radiant beings of Good and others of perverse hordes of Evil.
 We know that the beings of Good are happy, content, complacent. They live long, peaceful, perfect lives and they have no desires, no wants.
 The beings of Evil, on the other hand, live short and brutal lives filled with pain and greed. They strive desperately to improve their lot, they have to to survive. Their need, their percieved need, is greater than any other beings. And need is the mother of invention.

Need is the mother of invention, but organization is the mother of industry. Life in the Abyss is too changeable, too chaotic and dangerous for long term investments. Demons, in general, are too impatient to do anything that does not give them immediate advantages. Only the most powerful of demons have that luxury. Though the hordes of the Abyss are by far more numerous than those of any other plane, though most of the beings in the Multiverse are Demons, only a very few Demons could ever become inventors. No, The Abyss is not the birthplace of Industrialization.

The Devils, on the other hand, have patience. They are the masters of organization. They have vast resources, brilliant minds and obedient workers. Their lives are also filled with greed and pain, they also constantly strive for advantage, but they live infinitely safer lives than their cousins in the Abyss. They have a system and they work their ambitions within the rules of the system. They are not the most creative of thinkers, but when they see an advantage they will take it and they are constantly looking for advantages.

A mere century ago one of the great Pit Fiends in the court of Mephistopheles had an epiphany while watching a slave being boiled in water. A vision of a beautiful machine of steam and fire, of moving cogs and gears spinning and grinding with untiring strength and power. Of great buildings filled with such machines driving great belts around to carry the pieces of more machines to the stations of a million chained slaves. A vision of eternal monotonous torment and perfect flawless efficiency. A vision of himself ascending, infinitely wealthy and powerful, to rule an entire level of Hell and then cleansing the entire Multiverse with the power of his machines.
 The idea ripened and he left the court and returned to his vast estates where he begun his slow and methodical work. Years passed, mere moments in his life of countless millennia, and the inventions followed each others faster and faster. Once he understood the underlying principles it was all rather simple. When he encountered problems he solved them and every time his knowledge and skill increased. Soon he had his factories and mines, with machines and slaves and efficient massproduction, and then his mind turned back to the machines of war. Before long he had even greater factories, even more slaves and wealth, and now great monstrous machines, armed and armoured, rolled off the assembly-lines. He began to set the second phase of his plan into motion when something completely unexpected happened.


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## Xael (Nov 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Welcome Xael , perhaps you would like to play a wizardly faction? The Circle of Eight will have a lot of fire-power, though not so much in the way of economical reasources.



How did you guess?  The faction list doesn't tell me much, but as you guessed, I'm interested in some mainly magical factions. Will have to take a closer look at that list and the 3RD IR.


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## Serpenteye (Nov 2, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> How did you guess?  The faction list doesn't tell me much, but as you guessed, I'm interested in some mainly magical factions. Will have to take a closer look at that list and the 3RD IR.




I've never seen you play anything else, that's how  .

The faction list will tell you more, all in due time. I'm still working on the mechanics of the rules and I can't set any power-levels until I know just what kind of PL's I will use. 
I will tell you that strategic mobility and concentrated magical fire-power will be quite deadly in combat, but that you as the Cicle of Eight will have to be rather active politically and militarily to be able to keep your initial advantage before more populous factions catch up with you.

--
*Btw. We will not use the Epic Spellcasting rules.* In this kind of game it would be absurdly unbalancing because of the way mitigating the cost of epic spells work. It would be very easy for any of the bigger factions to scrape together a few thousand low-level spellcasters to help a 21st level Wizard cast a spell to destroy the planet... Planet-destruction belongs in the end of the game, naturally. And there will be other ways to do that, all in due time.


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## Xael (Nov 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Organizations not primarily based on a specific location:
> 
> The Circle of Eight:
> (A powerful group of Neutral high level Wizards)



Neutral. Wizards. No backwater slums to take care of. Sold! 

It's like designed just for me...


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## Knight Otu (Nov 2, 2004)

You know, I very much like the half-fiend great red wyrm Ashardalon introduced in the Adventure Path, nominally set in Greyhawk, and the undeath/demonic cult around him. Though officially, he would be killed in Bastion of Broken Souls, the location of his death do make a return somewhat possible. And even if not, a partially undead faction might be interesting.

 Of course, I should try to decide on a more core-ish faction.


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## Lichtenhart (Nov 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Ah. Palpatine, the soon-to be-Emperor who would mismanage his Empire disastrously and drive it into rebellion against himself. Not a good role-model at all .



Well, he would have crushed the rebellion if the ewoks hadn't been revised overnight from CR 1/2 to 27. 

Anyway I'll stop hijackin' the thread now. Have fun!


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## Serpenteye (Nov 2, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Neutral. Wizards. No backwater slums to take care of. Sold!
> 
> It's like designed just for me...




Great! You might need a couple of little backwaters somewhere, or we might set you up as a covert organization.

--

I've been thinking a bit about espionage and infiltration. Everything has a cost in my IR, but everything that has an expence will also have its rewards.
 To place a spy in an enemy territory you have to pay an amount in PL that's based on the value of the territory. Once you have placed a spy you will gain information about important occurrences in the territory or organization you have infiltrated. Your target has a small automatic chance to discover that there is a spy in their territory and if they don't find out they can nevertheless conduct a routine search for a small fee. Once they know there's a spy they have an option to find and remove it, for a cost that's slightly lower than the base-value of the amount of PLs that the agressor payed to have it placed there in the first place.
 One spy gives you important intelligence about your target, but nothing else. To gain influence over a territory you must pay a greater amount of PLs, because it's naturally a lot harder and more expensive. (I'm still mulling over just how expensive this will be) Influence translates into PLs, and once you have gained influence over a territory you will automatically gain a percentage of the PL of the territory as your own (the same amount will be takes from the owner of the territory, who will automatically know he's being robbed, though not by whom).
 There are seven different degrees of control over a territory: Spy, minor (10%), considerable (25%), significant (50%), Normal (75%), Overwhelming (90%), Total (100%). Once your influence (and, if you wish, the influence of your allies) over a territory exceeds the influence of the other factions in that territory you will take over the management of the territory and it will be officially yours (though other factions will still be there they are then considered infiltrators). Infiltration is incremental, you have to have 10% control before you can get 25% control, etc. Though the owner of a territory can target several different infiltrators in his territory in the same month he can only reclaim one increment of control from each of them in that time.
Once a territory is considered yours you will get a decrease to the cost of further infiltration and anti-infiltration. The same mechanic is used to get rid of foreign influence in your territories as you use to establish your influence.
Some races will be harder to inflitrate, it will require more PL to get them under your control and they will get a bonus to getting rid of infiltrators in their territory. Celestials, Devils, Dwarves, Formians... etc. Also, the more totalitarian a regime is the harder it will be to get control over its territories and especially cosmopolitical regions will be easier to get into.

I'm thinking of giving some of the factions a special trait, Infiltrator, that will reduce their cost for all infiltration with between 25% and 50% (but the reduction will only work for the player who controls the faction, it does not allow the allies of the faction to funnel resources trough it to reduce their expenses.)
This will give small factions that's specialized in working this way a way to become powerful at the expense of their big, powerful neigbours. Though if they find out the location of your headquarters they might make a little visit...
Eluvan's faction would almost certainly get this trait.



Please, don't be frightened by an apparent complexity of the rules. If you don't want to concern yourself with the details you can leave them up to me. It's like a computer game, there's a lot of calculations going on all the time that the player doesn't really have to care about unless he wants to be as competitive as possible. I need the rules to be fair to you all, without rules I would be arbitrary and might easily be manipulated by your fellow players.


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## Serpenteye (Nov 2, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> You know, I very much like the half-fiend great red wyrm Ashardalon introduced in the Adventure Path, nominally set in Greyhawk, and the undeath/demonic cult around him. Though officially, he would be killed in Bastion of Broken Souls, the location of his death do make a return somewhat possible. And even if not, a partially undead faction might be interesting.
> 
> Of course, I should try to decide on a more core-ish faction.




He could be core-ish...

20 years have passed since the current Living-Greyhawk-time. Ashardalon could have used his cult, and his own considerable power, to take over one of the major factions on the map. It would be very interesting to see the Kevellond League or the Great Kingdom under the rule of an evil soul-eating Dragon.   

--
Generally I want to see the map filled by player-controlled factions. That will spare me from playing too many NPC's, and since the game is about Domination it makes sense that the major players are the Players. That being said, I will of course adapt the faction to the wishes of the player. If someone wants the Empire of Iuz ruled by an Archon that's not at all impossible. If someone else wants to play a corrupted Celene that's just great. And if someone else feels that his faction could be a bit more powerful I'll have no objections to giving them a couple of new territories from  the minor non-player nations, as long as it doesn't get too out of control. 
Btw, the Minor Nations need not be minor at all. If you want we can merge some of them into an alliance under player-control. It's all good, or evil.


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## Xael (Nov 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Great! You might need a couple of little backwaters somewhere, or we might set you up as a covert organization.



Yeah, backwater town/whatever or two wouldn't hurt really. I just have to make sure that they aren't backwater towns for long. 



> Please, don't be frightened by an apparent complexity of the rules.



Heh, the first few posts of the 3RD IR thread(s) were kinda overwhelming at first.


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## Serpenteye (Nov 2, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Yeah, backwater town/whatever or two wouldn't hurt really. I just have to make sure that they aren't backwater towns for long.




Perhaps Highfolk, The Valley of the Mage, Vesve Forest and The Yatils?



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> Heh, the first few posts of the 3RD IR thread(s) were kinda overwhelming at first.




Heh... I was so young back then.  Good times .


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## Xael (Nov 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Perhaps Highfolk, The Valley of the Mage, Vesve Forest and The Yatils?



I finally found a map of Greyhawk, and I'd have to say that those areas look fine from placement point of view. Not that I know anything about them, but anyway...


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## Serpenteye (Nov 2, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> I finally found a map of Greyhawk, and I'd have to say that those areas look fine from placement point of view. Not that I know anything about them, but anyway...




Information will be forthcoming, but if you want them a specific way you can remake them in your image.


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 2, 2004)

Hmm... Ahlissa and surrounding areas might be nice, Ashardalon ruling in secret after his return, planting a figurehead as the overking for the time being...


----------



## DemonAtheist (Nov 3, 2004)

I, as others, have no knowledge of Greyhawk, but am interested nonetheless.  Specifically, I'd like to play as some sort of Prince of Thieves.

basic idea would be that, while each city has its own thieves guilds, there is a behind-the-scenes organization that controls and monitors the working of them all.  It controls enough people in enough locations to be of value to anyone seeking information, and is more than willing to aid political factions if it thinks there is some reason to.  

As such, while the day-to-day activities of the guilds involve pick-pocketing, burglary, begging, and random other low-key crimes, the Shadow Guild (ooh i thought of a name!) plans the major heists, gets close to political leaders, bribes law enforcement, sells services, and organizes anything involving more than one guild.  It also keeps the peace between the guilds, with threat of force if necessary.

The leader of the SG is known as the shadow prince.  under him are seven master thieves (the shadow hands), and under them are thirteen enforcers and body guards (shadow blades).  The Shadow Hands do the lesser political maneuvering, mastermind heists, and do tricky assassinations.  The Shadow Blades are the most seen (though still secretive) arm of the Guild, issuing all threats, delivering most messages, and any works of thuggery that individual guilds cannot do.  The Prince himself distances himself from thievery, instead making crucial political allies (or enemies, if need be) that suboordinates cannot be trusted with.

Under the Twenty One (above), are a few dozen spies, known to the organization as Eyes.  They double as Bards, law enforcement, political advisors, mercenary guild leaders.  They do not control their fields, and are never openly admitted to belong to the Guild, but serve as an outlet of information.






What do you think?  Should I go read the CS at borders?


----------



## GnomeWorks (Nov 3, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Heh... I was so young back then.  Good times .




Not as young as I was! 

I will be watching...


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 3, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Hmm... Ahlissa and surrounding areas might be nice, Ashardalon ruling in secret after his return, planting a figurehead as the overking for the time being...




Those territories would make you a major power in the IR. I think that would suit you well. 




			
				DemonAtheist said:
			
		

> I, as others, have no knowledge of Greyhawk, but am interested nonetheless.  Specifically, I'd like to play as some sort of Prince of Thieves.
> 
> basic idea would be that, while each city has its own thieves guilds, there is a behind-the-scenes organization that controls and monitors the working of them all.  It controls enough people in enough locations to be of value to anyone seeking information, and is more than willing to aid political factions if it thinks there is some reason to.
> 
> ...




I like it. Welcome DemonAtheist . Where would you want your guilds to be located? (It might be wise to keep your power concentrated in a few locations since you would otherwise make a lot of enemies from the onset of the game. Thieves guilds are not exactly popular with the people in charge, you know)

Your faction would be an Infiltrator organization (see my post above about espionage). You would not get a lot of powerlevels at first but you would get a unique advantage that could make you very powerful later in the game. You and Eluvan are the only players that will get that particular trait, since I like to keep the trait rare, unless we get a lot of new players who fill more conventional roles as traditional great powers..

Now when I've re-read your post I get the impression that you're not so much interested in controlling territories by infiltration as you are in pure information-gathering. That could be an interesting role to play but it would not make you very powerful. 



			
				GnomeWorks said:
			
		

> Not as young as I was!
> 
> I will be watching...




Welcome GnomeWorks, hope you'll enjoy the show. 
It would be great if you could join in as a player (any faction but the Lortmils). Show these young'uns how it's done .


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 3, 2004)

I will be going out of town for a few days, back on monday. I will answer all your questions then.
To anyone who wishes to join: We still have plenty of room for new players. Feel free to claim any territory that hasn't already been claimed by someone else.


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 4, 2004)

Good news, I guess... My travel-plans got delayed, and perhaps canceled, by a flat tire, so I'm still around.
We still need a lot of players, so come on in and tell all your friends about it .


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 4, 2004)

Not knowing if you're still around, a few questions:

 I understand that epic spells a la the ELH are out. What about other high-powered magic (xth level spells or the like)?
 I trust we can create artifacts of great power, technological terrors and the like?  Given proper time, of course. 
 Since you've mentioned faction traits: Would they be fully fixed during the game, or could the evolve slightly?


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 5, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Not knowing if you're still around, a few questions:
> 
> I understand that epic spells a la the ELH are out. What about other high-powered magic (xth level spells or the like)?
> I trust we can create artifacts of great power, technological terrors and the like?  Given proper time, of course.
> Since you've mentioned faction traits: Would they be fully fixed during the game, or could the evolve slightly?





There will be very high-powered magic. 10th and 11th level spells will be extremely powerful and vastly enhance the fighting ability of your armies, as 
well as help against infiltration and espionage. It will be expensive, of course, but if you manage to get it in time, and are not wiped out by more agressive players first, it will likely be worth it. 

Technology will be more incremental and will give a steady increase in your productivity and fighting-ability turn by turn. Purely militarily you might be better off with magic (even nukes will not compare with the power of magical catastrophes though magically enhanced nukes might) but industrial production will probably be the single most important factor in the IR altogether. Higher level magics might enable you to do some rather radical genetic engineering and such... I'll probably not stat that out in the rules but ad-hoc it when it comes up.

Artifacts I really haven't thought about other than as just another bit of faction-PL, I'll have to consider them. 

I originally created Traits for the single purpose of making some of the smaller factions viable by reflecting their specialization and competence in a specific field. The Infiltrator Trait will make thieves-guilds, underground cults and such fit better into their roles than if their power was tied to industry, magic and war like everybody else.

A preliminary Researcher Trait would make small factions of wizards and sages more effective at researching magics (and possibly creating artifacts). I'm not quite sure that its needed since those factions would consist of mainly high-level magic users who therefore have a tremendous advantage from both their Quality as high levelers and Mobility as teleporters. On the other hand not giving them a non-warlike bonus would force them to be highly agressive from the very beginning or fall irrevocably behind. That might or might not be a problem and it's something I will have to consider.

There will alse be a Trait available for PCs that will vastly enhance both their personal power and the power of their faction. The Divine Trait will be subdivided in several different levels; Demigod, Lesser Deity, Intermediate Deity, Greater Deity and Overdeity. It will be given to one PC from the start, Iuz will be a Demigod, and other PCs might aquire it over the course of the IR. Demigod is not a terribly big deal, but once you've reached Overdeity your power will be truly awesome.

Once I have finished the rules for industrialization and war it will be easier for me to see what's balanced and what's not.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 5, 2004)

This sounds like fun.  I think I'd like to play completely against type and run the Pomarj; with their high breeding rate, swift maturation, and physical bent, orcs make the perfect lower-class industrialites.  Naturally, I'd need the leader of the faction, and his lieutenants, to be less short-lived and short-sighted; an extremely advanced barghest, perhaps, with half-fiend offspring to do his bidding?


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 5, 2004)

Welcome Paxus.

The Pomarj is an important nation, but it's not terribly strong on its own. Perhaps you would like to pick up a couple of other areas with a similar theme in addition? Factions don't necessarily have to be one single land-mass of bordering territories, though that's obviously easier to defend, but can have a bunch of little enclaves all over the place.

Barghests are one of the cooler monsters out there imo. One of the few things that can eat a soul, it's pretty tasty (especially in an IR). Go for it .


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 5, 2004)

It looks like the Crystalmists, Jotens, and Hellfurnaces would be good to seize.  They're already populated with humanoids and giants (fodder for my caste-system breeding program), should be rich sources of mineral wealth (and, in the Hellfurnaces, enough geothermal power to eliminate the need for imported fossil fuels), and most importantly, are the sorts of dense, impossible terrain that renders superior firepower, whether legions of fireball-wand-carrying wizards or tank battalions, almost completely moot.

EDIT:  Looking at the 3rd IR thread, I can see that even this is a tiny seizure.  Consequently, I might as well snatch up the Griff and Raker Mountains, and the Dreadwoods, and crown myself king of the goblinoids of Oerik.


----------



## devilish (Nov 5, 2004)

*Valley of the Mage?*

Has anyone claimed the Valley of the Mage yet?

Would love to play!

-D


----------



## Xael (Nov 5, 2004)

devilish said:
			
		

> Has anyone claimed the Valley of the Mage yet?



Well, Serpenteye suggested that I could claim it, but it's a bit off from my other areas. I could probably give it to you instead, though I don't know if it's some kind of ûber-valley of doom or something that-every-mage-must-have. I have no idea how valuable it is.


----------



## GnomeWorks (Nov 6, 2004)

Hmm...

Serpenteye, have you considered using the map again?  I recall that being a big help in the 3rd IR, and it definitely wouldn't hurt.

Ah yes, the Pomarj... I remember that well. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It would be great if you could join in as a player (any faction but the Lortmils). Show these young'uns how it's done .




I might just do that... do you have a list of what's still available, other than the Lortmils?  Though I doubt I could pull off what was done last time, I could try.


----------



## devilish (Nov 6, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Well, Serpenteye suggested that I could claim it, but it's a bit off from my other areas. I could probably give it to you instead, though I don't know if it's some kind of ûber-valley of doom or something that-every-mage-must-have. I have no idea how valuable it is.




Rats!  I read :
>Perhaps Highfolk, The Valley of the Mage, Vesve Forest and The Yatils?
as
>Perhaps Highfolk, The Valley of the Mage, Vesve Forest _*or*_ The Yatils?

Sorry, my bad!

What else is open?


----------



## Mr. Draco (Nov 6, 2004)

Wow... I drop all the boards but the D20 System board for a long time, due to general business and college starting, and this evening I scroll down on the first page and find this in the "latest threads" collum.

What can I say but it's good to see you around again serpenteye, gw, lichtenhart, and knight otu!

Well, that, and I'm in   I'm so definately in.  Though I don't have any ideas at the moment for a faction.  Serpenteye, what do you think would be interesting?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 6, 2004)

GnomeWorks said:
			
		

> Ah yes, the Pomarj... I remember that well.




Got any hints?  And what exactly was done with the Lortmils?


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> It looks like the Crystalmists, Jotens, and Hellfurnaces would be good to seize.  They're already populated with humanoids and giants (fodder for my caste-system breeding program), should be rich sources of mineral wealth (and, in the Hellfurnaces, enough geothermal power to eliminate the need for imported fossil fuels), and most importantly, are the sorts of dense, impossible terrain that renders superior firepower, whether legions of fireball-wand-carrying wizards or tank battalions, almost completely moot.
> 
> EDIT:  Looking at the 3rd IR thread, I can see that even this is a tiny seizure.  Consequently, I might as well snatch up the Griff and Raker Mountains, and the Dreadwoods, and crown myself king of the goblinoids of Oerik.




The Pomarj, Crystalmists, Jotens, Hellfurnaces, Griff and Raker Mountains and Dreadwoods are yours. You will be a a force to be reconed with Paxus. It's always good to hold the high ground.  




			
				devilish said:
			
		

> Has anyone claimed the Valley of the Mage yet?
> 
> Would love to play!
> 
> -D




Welcome devilish! It seems we're beginning to get quite a good number of players here. (Though I'll still welcome plenty more people) I was a bit worried we'd be too few, but I think this will turn out well.

And yes, they have been claimed by Xael. If he wants to give it to you, though, it's yours.

 What kind of faction would you want to play? What alignments would you want and would you prefer an specialized arcane faction over an industrial Imperial one? If you want to focus on magic, and don't mind being evil, I can throw in Acererak and his Tomb of Horrors and some of the other territories with plenty of undead (like the Cold Marches and Blackmoor). If you want to be good, then the Bakluni (a people similar to the ancient pre-moslem arabs) have a long magical tradition and a very big empire on the edges of the Flannaes. The Bakluni Empire is also close to the Valley of the Mage.



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> Well, Serpenteye suggested that I could claim it, but it's a bit off from my other areas. I could probably give it to you instead, though I don't know if it's some kind of ûber-valley of doom or something that-every-mage-must-have. I have no idea how valuable it is.




It's a pretty minor territory, relatively speaking.



			
				GnomeWorks said:
			
		

> Hmm...
> 
> Serpenteye, have you considered using the map again?  I recall that being a big help in the 3rd IR, and it definitely wouldn't hurt.
> 
> ...




I will definately use a map for this IR, if I can only find some site for it. It would be almost necessary to keep track of the game.

Ah indeed. The Pomarj... the only faction that was as treacherous as mine and Mr Draco's.   

Most territories are still available. The Kevellond League, Greater Nyrond, The Suel Barbarians, to mention a few, as well as all the territories west of the Bakluni (who may or may not be unclaimed as well). 



			
				devilish said:
			
		

> Rats!  I read :
> >Perhaps Highfolk, The Valley of the Mage, Vesve Forest and The Yatils?
> as
> >Perhaps Highfolk, The Valley of the Mage, Vesve Forest _*or*_ The Yatils?
> ...




See above for some suggestions.




			
				Mr. Draco said:
			
		

> Wow... I drop all the boards but the D20 System board for a long time, due to general business and college starting, and this evening I scroll down on the first page and find this in the "latest threads" collum.
> 
> What can I say but it's good to see you around again serpenteye, gw, lichtenhart, and knight otu!
> 
> Well, that, and I'm in   I'm so definately in.  Though I don't have any ideas at the moment for a faction.  Serpenteye, what do you think would be interesting?




Draco!  Hey, it's really great to see you again. Long time no see. Welcome to the IR! 
There's a lot of important factions still unclaimed in the Flannaes. The Lortmils are going to be big, as will the Kevellond League, the Bakluni and some of the Empires of the west; Lyrn, Celestial Imperium, The Khanates, Nippon, The Tarquish and Ishtarland. An alliance between a couple of them would be very powerful indeed.
 (Generally, like it was in Edena's IR, territories in the Flannaes will be somewhat more valuable than territories of comparable size outside of the Flannaes, but the differences won't be nearly as great in this IR.) 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Got any hints?  And what exactly was done with the Lortmils?




They were Gnomework's faction, and one of the key factions in the Alliance of Oerth (The Good Alliance, which most of the players of the IR joined). Technology, everything from nano-golem-bullets to nuklear weapons, was their specialty. They were essential in securing the victory of Good in the 3rd IR. 


Btw, It seems we're getting quite a bit more Evil factions than Good. Not a bad thing at all, since it will likely keep you from forming too many lasting alliances and make for a lot of intrigue and backstabbing. It should keep the game moving along nicely, but it will make things quite deadly for you.

We still need some heroes, though. Some powerful forces of Good to hold back the tides of Evil, a beacon of light in the darkness. I'm not playing any favorites, Evil has its advantages as do Good, but it would make things more interesting.


----------



## Eluvan (Nov 6, 2004)

Since it seems like as an infiltrator my faction is goign to work rather differently, should I still be looking at allies? I ask because I've been thinking that I'd really like soem fiendish support. I think my character himself will be a half-fiend rogue/telepath/shadowdancer/assassin, with links to the Devils through his ancestry. 

 I'm viewing him at the moment as very much the focus of my game - the organisation under him will be a useful tool, but only one of many he will use. He's definitely out for number one, and he manipulate shis own organisation when it suits him. Ideally, I'd like to aim for godhead with him. 

 What do you think? Possible?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 6, 2004)

That is a good point: are we going to have selections of planar allies, as was done in the 3rd IR?


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 6, 2004)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> Since it seems like as an infiltrator my faction is goign to work rather differently, should I still be looking at allies? I ask because I've been thinking that I'd really like soem fiendish support. I think my character himself will be a half-fiend rogue/telepath/shadowdancer/assassin, with links to the Devils through his ancestry.
> 
> I'm viewing him at the moment as very much the focus of my game - the organisation under him will be a useful tool, but only one of many he will use. He's definitely out for number one, and he manipulate shis own organisation when it suits him. Ideally, I'd like to aim for godhead with him.
> 
> What do you think? Possible?




Very possible. 

Adding additional territories to your faction would probably not be a good thing. For one, it would "put you on the map" and therefore make you more vulnerable since it wouldn't make you strong enough to deterr a determined attacker. It would also dilute the purpose and flavour of your faction since you would spend more time fighting conventional wars than on cloak and dagger stuff. I think a better alternative would be to simply give your organization a bit more power. It can be inflitrating a number of territories to varying degrees at the beginning of the game and would gain a considerable income from that.

The main prerequisite for becoming a God is to be known and worshiped by a great number of sapient beings. This might be a problem for your PC if he prefers to be a hidden manipulator, but there may be ways around that...



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> That is a good point: are we going to have selections of planar allies, as was done in the 3rd IR?




There will be a limited number of planar forces already in the crystal sphere of Oerth at the beginning of the game, a number not far from that in the official setting. So a part of your faction can certainly be diabolic or demonic, celestial or something else. Many of the factions, if they want it, can have a limited number of outsiders under their control. Some factions, like Iuz and Ahlissa who have significant outsider precense in the core setting, can have a greater number (but still rather limited). Fiends can be rather tricky, though, and it's not wise to put too much trust in them. 

In the very beginning of the IR there will be an influx of fiends into the setting, refugees carrying the secrets of technology to Oerth. They won't be assigned to factions at this point, but they will be significant. Just after they arrive, though, the Crystal Shpere (and the coterminous regions of the Ethereal and Astral planes) will be closed off for a time as the Gods seal it away out of even their own reach to protect it against something Big and Evil from the Outside. After that point, until either you or the Big Evil finds a way to break trough the seal and find your way back to the Multiverse, there will be no more arrivals of planar forces of any kind.
 I do this for reasons of focus and game-balance, to get rid of the Deities who would otherwise be predominant and to keep the story on Oerth and Oerthians, at least until the later stages of the game.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 6, 2004)

One very simple, but quite important to me, question is this: does the lack of access to the Astral prevent teleportation?


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> One very simple, but quite important to me, question is this: does the lack of access to the Astral prevent teleportation?




No, it does not. Nor is ethereal travel prevented. Because, in fact, you have access to the Astral and Ethereal. At least those parts of those planes that lie paralell to the crystal sphere of Oerth. Those parts of those planes are however themselves cut off from the rest of the Astral and Etheral respectively and therefore to the rest of the Multiverse. 

No, in short.

Nor does the cutting off prevent evocations and non-summoning conjurations. The stuff brought forth from such spells are just as easily drawn from Oerth as from the Planes with a few simple adaptations to the spells.

Positive and negative energy, since it can not be drawn from the outside, will instead be drawn from the forces of life and death on Oerth. Thus, when you cast a Cure Light Wounds you draw a miniscule amount of energy from every living thing in the sphere that's less powerful than yourself. And when you cast a Cause Wounds spell you draw from the everprecent forces of entropy. With normal levels of use the difference shouldn't be noticeable...


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 8, 2004)

*Questions. *

Had anone taken Iuz already ? 

If not, I'm quite interested in Him and his little empire. It need a lot of improvement ... Especially bigger temples.


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 8, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Had anone taken Iuz already ?
> 
> If not, I'm quite interested in Him and his little empire. It need a lot of improvement ... Especially bigger temples.




If I recall correctly someone was talking about claiming Iuz, I think it was one option among others. I don't think he ever got back to me on that. I'll re-read the thread tomorrow (don't have time now), if he didn't claim Iuz the faction is yours. 

And Welcome Rikandur Azebol! Welcome to the IR.


----------



## devilish (Nov 8, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> What kind of faction would you want to play? What alignments would you want and would you prefer an specialized arcane faction over an industrial Imperial one? If you want to focus on magic, and don't mind being evil, I can throw in Acererak and his Tomb of Horrors and some of the other territories with plenty of undead (like the Cold Marches and Blackmoor).




Most delicious!  Would love Acererak and environs.  

Many thanks,
-D


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 8, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly someone was talking about claiming Iuz, I think it was one option among others. I don't think he ever got back to me on that. I'll re-read the thread tomorrow (don't have time now), if he didn't claim Iuz the faction is yours.
> 
> And Welcome Rikandur Azebol! Welcome to the IR.




*Rikandur Azebol is hiding bloodied axe behind his back.*

Um ... I did my best to _convice_ him in civilised way ...   

Thank You for warm welcome ! Questions: Will it be somewhat similiar to *Brightright* ? Economy there was preety simple ... even if there was no improvement. Or somewhat along the line with *Fields of Blood*, with generals leading armies to clash on the battlefield ! Or it will be somewhat similar to Civilization series ?

 Anyway ... Funny scene that I just imagined.

*SCENE STARTS*

"All will obey Iuz ! Iuz rules all !" 

*Reads, with great difficulty, book's cover wich mysteriously appear in his sight.*

"Um ... I can read ... It states ... Echem ...Book ... of ... Exatle ... Esalted ... Chrum, chrum ..."

*Incincerates anyone watching and secretly don's hourglasses.*

"Book ... of ... Exalted ... Deeds ... What the &%$# is that ?! Let's read ..."

*Cry of pain echoes trough capital. One etheral wizard to another.*

"Like You saw, Bigby. Pen is more powerful than sword. Let's go."

*SCENE ENDS*

Sorry for spoilers, couldn't stop myself.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 9, 2004)

The church of Tritherion:  'cause every industrial revolution needs its uppity proleteriat.

_"No king!  No queen!  No lord!  We will not be slaves again!"_

*Begins humming various tunes from _Les Miserables.*_

Edit: Does this make me the first good guy?


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 9, 2004)

Iuz children would crush You beneath their feet. 

And, as far as I'm oriented You are in light hearted minority. Probably You have elven queen as possible ally. 

If I would have opportunity to use Iuz, the other player didn't seem very fixated on him, I would begin to forge alliance with evil lich Acererak ... 

Devilish, what would You say ? Fresh experimental subjects, for arcane support ?


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 9, 2004)

devilish said:
			
		

> Most delicious!  Would love Acererak and environs.
> 
> Many thanks,
> -D




Thanks yourself .



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> *Rikandur Azebol is hiding bloodied axe behind his back.*
> 
> Um ... I did my best to _convice_ him in civilised way ...




Turns out he never did write anything definite about claiming Iuz. Maybe your bloody axe scared him off or maybe we'll be finding pieces of him floating in the Whyestil Lake. Either way, you sure know how to handle the competition .

Blue Genie, you can still pick any other unclaimed faction for yourself.



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Thank You for warm welcome ! Questions: Will it be somewhat similiar to *Brightright* ? Economy there was preety simple ... even if there was no improvement. Or somewhat along the line with *Fields of Blood*, with generals leading armies to clash on the battlefield ! Or it will be somewhat similar to Civilization series ?




I don't know about Birthright or Fields of Blood (never read them), but it will not resemble the Civilization games. The economy will be a lot simpler than in Civ, there won't be nearly as much micromanagement and there will be more avenues of advancement. I'm not sure if it's very close to any particular game, besides the 3rd IR, as far as the rules are concerned. Hmm... 



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Anyway ... Funny scene that I just imagined.
> 
> *SCENE STARTS*
> 
> ...




Seems like Iuz is trying to fabricate a diplomatic incident to establish a casus belli against the Circle of Eight. "They attacked me first with that cursed book, I had no choice but to slaughter their entire population..." 



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> The church of Tritherion:  'cause every industrial revolution needs its uppity proleteriat.
> 
> _"No king!  No queen!  No lord!  We will not be slaves again!"_
> 
> ...




We have a couple of Neutrals, but you are the first Good. Good luck, brave man. 
 The Church of Tritherion is yours. Even though your clerics are unable to cast spells or turn undead while Oerth is cut off from the rest of the Multiverse the cause of Freedom will always attract the masses of the world. You won't be an Infiltrator organization but you will still hold a strong partial influence over a lot of territories.
Would you like some elves with that order?


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 9, 2004)

*Player List:*

Eluvan:
"Greyhawk illuminatus" -Secret organization with Infiltrator trait, based in Greyhawk.

Knight Otu:
Cult of Ashardalon. The Great Kingdom: Northern Aerdy, United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Almor, Rel Astra, the Sea Barons.

Blue Genie:
Celene, or the Scarlet Brotherhood, or a Dwarven/Gnome Union. (Would you like the Lortmils? A major industrial power.)

Xael:
Circle of Eight, Highfolk, Vesve Forest and The Yatil Monutains.

Demon Atheist:
The Shadow Guild -Infiltrator trait.

Paxus Asclepius:
The Pomarj, Crystalmists, Jotens, Hellfurnaces, Griff Mountains, Raker Mountains, and the Dreadwoods.

Devilish:
Valley of the Mage, Acererak and the Tomb of Horrors, The Cold Marches and Blackmoor. 

Gnomeworks: ?

Mr Draco: ?

Rikandur Azebol:
Iuz: Demigod. Empire of Iuz: Stonehold, The Empire of Iuz, Tenh, The Bandit Kingdoms. 

Thomas Hobbes: The Church of Tritherion.

---------

Unclaimed territories:



> Minor nations of the NW:
> Suel Barbarians (Snow-, Ice- and Frost-barbarians and Ratik.) The Bone March (Mostly Orcs). The Theocracy of the Pale (Human). The tribes of the Timberway Forest (Elves, Fey, Humanoids and Monsters of many kinds). Gamboge Forest (the same) The Troll Fens (Mostly Trolls). Phostwood (Tenha partisans, Undead, various Monsters). Fellreev Forest (anti-Iuz partisans, various Monsters)
> 
> Minor nations of the SE:
> ...


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 9, 2004)

http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/

A good map site to familiarize yourself with Oerth.
--

Btw, I still need somewhere to put the IR faction maps. Does anyone have a site?


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 9, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Thanks yourself .
> 
> Turns out he never did write anything definite about claiming Iuz. Maybe your bloody axe scared him off or maybe we'll be finding pieces of him floating in the Whyestil Lake. Either way, you sure know how to handle the competition .
> 
> ...




*Brightright* ... Me too know the game just from the PC wersion ... It seems that nobody have it, nowhere PDF to get. What I learned from PC wersion is simple enough. Everything was priced in Gold Bars ... 1 equals about 10 to 100 thousands of gold pieces. It's because after adventure all treasures gained by my party was weirdly transformed to GB. And clerics were ruling the battlefield ... since thanks to stupid bug, everything could been turned. Clerics were worse than tanks. Even Gorgon, the main and immortal bad guy was powerless. 
Several fields of influence ... like Espionage, Trade, Military. You could improve Your province's level wich was giving you options like choice of improving Your Mage Guild, Temple, Thieves Guild, Fortress Lvl. 

And much more to explain, but ultimately futile ... I don't remeber all too well.
haven't played the game for years. 

*Fields of Blood* ? Simplified Brightright, in my opinion, With nice mechanics changing creatures from Monster Manual into units of warriors. And how to change Your heroes into leaders of the country. 

Mechanics was too RTS based, Build cities, gather resouces, build upgardes that are giving You more resouce points. Very much left to players and DM.

I get the PDF via eMule.   

And lastly to the Archbishop of the First Good cult. You are competition, convert or die.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 9, 2004)

Wonderful!  I love religious wars, especially when they don't involve me.  Hurray for being a god-on-earth!


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 9, 2004)

Thank You, are You willing to convert ? 

I think that as fellow almost-god, You might get some experience from great example.
In one word ? Iuz. I propose Thee loose alliance and no-all-out-war treaty. Who would care for village or two wich were unable to protect themselves from bandits anyway ?

And since weedy Gruumsh left Your people ... what would You think of getting rid of all these big-mouthed clerics ? My altars and dungeons alvays welcome new visitors ... eagerly.


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 9, 2004)

Thank You, are You willing to convert ? 

I think that as fellow almost-god, You might get some experience from great example.
In one word ? Iuz. I propose Thee loose alliance and no-all-out-war treaty. Who would care for village or two wich were unable to protect themselves from bandits anyway ?

And since weedy Gruumsh left Your people ... what would You think of getting rid of all these big-mouthed clerics ? My altars and dungeons alvays welcome new visitors ... eagerly. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Serpenteye ... Am I correct that ther is one ugly forest in the middle of my land, wich is out of my grasp ? Fellreev forest ? And where is Stonehold ? I couldn't find it on the map.  Closest thing to Stonehold in my reach is Hold of Stonefist ... are they one and the same ?


----------



## Eluvan (Nov 9, 2004)

I guess I need a better name for my organisation than 'something like the Greyhawk illuminati'. So...

 To those in the know they are called the *Shepherds in Darkness*.


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 9, 2004)

Bah, you're all just snacks to Ashardalon.
 Alliances are good, as long as you can  toasttrust the ally.


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 9, 2004)

These adventurers didn't get You Ashardalon ?

I'm glad to see You in good health.   
Edit: Ashardalon is mighty Draconic magus and half-demon, maybe ... dracolichdom ?
Or friendly cleric with _Miracle_ spell. I guess that Ammet is in worse situation than You. Since You get even followers among the dragonkind, wich is rare ... I can perceive Dragon Ascendant Prestige class ahead of You ... and Godhead. Damn ... Good that I have better start.   

And, Serpenteye, can I ask You one some questions ? Where can I get stats for Iuz ? Is he divine spellcaster or arcane magus ? And most importantly ... wich  Divine Domains belong to him ? My guess is Pain and War ... But I don't know for sure.


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 9, 2004)

The exact nature of Ashardalon's survival and/or return will propably discussed between me and Serpenteye before the start of the game, though I've given a slight possibility earlier.


----------



## devilish (Nov 9, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Devilish, what would You say ? Fresh experimental subjects, for arcane support ?




A most excellent proposal -- if I didn't have gems for eyes, I would
cry for joy.  

Perhaps, after a fashion, we can take down that pesky Vecna -- two-bit lich doesn't deserve god-hood.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 9, 2004)

I could hardly convert without giving up my status as Wolf-God of all Goblinkind and Giantkind, now could I?  On the other hand, an alliance would seem profitable to eliminate the Theocracy of the Pale, and perhaps on into Furyondy?


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 10, 2004)

Elves would be nice.  They're philisophically aligned, they have the magical firepower the common people lack, and perhaps most importantly... those evil people are scary. 

Also, it strikes me that druids, which elves have in abundance, will be the only (full) divine casters.  Booyah!

Major character(s) on this end of things will probably be a Bard/Evangelist (head of operations for the Church), Some Fighter/Holy Liberators, and Elven Wizards and Druids, some of which will likely be heads of state.


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 10, 2004)

devilish said:
			
		

> A most excellent proposal -- if I didn't have gems for eyes, I would cry for joy.
> 
> Perhaps, after a fashion, we can take down that pesky Vecna -- two-bit lich doesn't deserve god-hood.




Your agreement warms my black heart ... maybe today I will torture wictim only for hour ? And leave him alive ... for tomorrow. We could discuss details later, when Serpenteye would give Us more to chew. 

My proposal is, You could expand into the Underdark ... With my support. Fresh zombies and rescouses for research. My thoughts that You might devolp in spare time ... between Your very important experiments. Devils have machine wich is massproducing zombies. Why bother minions with unnecesary hadiwork ... More time saved for important actions. And way to recharge divine wands. Very useful, and saving precious time. Collar of Controlling Tarrasque would be good ... too. Imagine wich insights to the science and understanding of Art would give You it's wiwisection, alive specimen that is surviwing to the end of experiment are rare these times.   

Why expand to Underdark ? I think that fresh, sterile place for magical factories and laboratories would be most useful.

And Vecna ... You have a point. Such weakling don't deserve to exist. There could be only one ruler of the world !


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 10, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I could hardly convert without giving up my status as Wolf-God of all Goblinkind and Giantkind, now could I?  On the other hand, an alliance would seem profitable to eliminate the Theocracy of the Pale, and perhaps on into Furyondy?




Och, it's rather simple. I might increase My pantheon ... and adopt You. 
Remeber that Humans, Orcs and Demons are reserved for worshipping me !

Theocracy ... if they just surrender and convert, It would save them long years of interrogation.  

Furyondy ... I will delude them with peace. For 10 years ... They will soften up, and my armies will grow. Later ... We will see. Lately I started to read a lot ... Cursed book of exalted deeds, to know my true enemy. Book of Vile Darkness, unending inspiration. And results of interrogations made with some devils. My horizons expanded beyond mere conquest.

We ar allies then, would You sell me ores, wich are plenty in mountains, and dead bodies. In exchange for food and timber. I have two troublesome forests ... Tee Hee.


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 10, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> And Serpenteye ... Am I correct that ther is one ugly forest in the middle of my land, wich is out of my grasp ? Fellreev forest ? And where is Stonehold ? I couldn't find it on the map.  Closest thing to Stonehold in my reach is Hold of Stonefist ... are they one and the same ?




My mistake.  Hold of Stonefist it is. 



			
				Eluvan said:
			
		

> I guess I need a better name for my organisation than 'something like the Greyhawk illuminati'. So...
> 
> To those in the know they are called the *Shepherds in Darkness*.




Cool. Better watch your flock, though. There's wolves out there...



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> And, Serpenteye, can I ask You one some questions ? Where can I get stats for Iuz ? Is he divine spellcaster or arcane magus ? And most importantly ... wich  Divine Domains belong to him ? My guess is Pain and War ... But I don't know for sure.




Your guess is as good as mine... I'll see if I can find anything.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> The exact nature of Ashardalon's survival and/or return will propably discussed between me and Serpenteye before the start of the game, though I've given a slight possibility earlier.




Assuming he was killed in any of the usual ways he could very easily have been True Resurrected. 



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Elves would be nice.  They're philisophically aligned, they have the magical firepower the common people lack, and perhaps most importantly... those evil people are scary.
> 
> Also, it strikes me that druids, which elves have in abundance, will be the only (full) divine casters.  Booyah!
> 
> Major character(s) on this end of things will probably be a Bard/Evangelist (head of operations for the Church), Some Fighter/Holy Liberators, and Elven Wizards and Druids, some of which will likely be heads of state.




There are (unclaimed) elves in Celene and the Lendarl Islands. Those territories are now yours, if you want them. We can also easily insert elven civilizations in off-map locations if you want some more power.
Your druids will be very useful indeed.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 10, 2004)

Do the humanoid tribes include any druids, or is it mostly adepts and clerics who are now spell-less?


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 10, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Where can I get stats for Iuz ? Is he divine spellcaster or arcane magus ? And most importantly ... wich Divine Domains belong to him ? My guess is Pain and War ... But I don't know for sure.



 According to Dragon #294 (which has a Deities and Demigods style writeup), Cleric 20/Assassin 10. Domains are Chaos, Evil and Trickery. He has the same domains in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (Trickery - goes very well with his favored weapon greatsword. ).


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 10, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> My mistake.  Hold of Stonefist it is.
> Your guess is as good as mine... I'll see if I can find anything.




Thank You for explaination. And I had found a bit about Iuz, he is magic using Cambion ...  :\  Tanar'ri, But I'm not sure what the hell cambions are. Since his momma is necromancer, I would guess that he isn't divine spellcaster.  

And one interesting twist about his priesthood ... Priests sponsored by him are unable to use Cure spells ! But from the other point of view ... His undead servitors can be reviwed with Inflict spells. Chmm ... must change doctrine a bit ... maybe this will be reserved for Prestige Class ? Yes, that is good choice ! Prestige Class with spells avaible only to Mouth's of Iuz.

But nowhere to find his stats ... I will search more.   

In any case, for example secret agreements, we can contact via @mail.
For secret contacts and sheming here goes mine: guldan[at]wp[dot]pl.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 10, 2004)

Cambions were, in 2e, half-tanar'ri.  He'd basically be a half-fiend of extremely high character level and a low divine rank.

I'll use my Yahoo mail address for this game; the address is joejay1066.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 10, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> There are (unclaimed) elves in Celene and the Lendarl Islands. Those territories are now yours, if you want them. We can also easily insert elven civilizations in off-map locations if you want some more power.
> Your druids will be very useful indeed.




Those two sound good (where are those islands, anyway?), and I'm laying claim to the alleigance of any expatriated elves besides.   

My e-mail, for cladestine communications, is ternashandrik(at)yahoo(dot)com.

I shall investigate the greyhawk resources to find out more about the history thereof, paticularly my territory (of special interest are any prexisiting NPCs I should aquire).

Is there any one place I should look for a primer on how IR works?


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 11, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> According to Dragon #294 (which has a Deities and Demigods style writeup), Cleric 20/Assassin 10. Domains are Chaos, Evil and Trickery. He has the same domains in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (Trickery - goes very well with his favored weapon greatsword. ).




Thank You Knight Otu.   
Ashardalon might also be useful ally ... Where is my rod of commanding dragons ?  

Would almighty dragon care to ally with someone who counts ?   

I had read His entry ... Wow, Iuz kick's back with his great power ! And have some basic "unique cambionic demon lord", Spellike abilities to rely upon. And all those enemies ... Vecna, Tharizdum, Nerull, St. Cuthbert to name just gods. Good that now he is ONLY god present, isnt it?   

Druids don't count, because they aren't getting their spells from gods. 

Serpenteye ... most of My empire is a half barren plain, in my resouce sites I have partisans ... or minimal control. Sigh ... must first steel my grip on what I have. Life of an Emperor is constant hadrdship. And they call me evil for all those little pleasures ... sob.  

Any suggestions about devolping of my Iuz, Serpenteye, or can I use entry from Dragon ?


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 11, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Do the humanoid tribes include any druids, or is it mostly adepts and clerics who are now spell-less?




There are a handful of druids and shamans (druids with another name afaIc), but humanoids generally do not respect nature or the balance of life enough to be druids. They, like most humans, regard nature as either an obstacle or a source of resources, not with any degree of reverance.



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Those two sound good (where are those islands, anyway?), and I'm laying claim to the alleigance of any expatriated elves besides.
> 
> My e-mail, for cladestine communications, is ternashandrik(at)yahoo(dot)com.
> 
> ...




Great , you are now a major power. 

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/foru...stpost&sortorder=asc&daysprune=1000&x=14&y=13

(the islands are at the eastern edge of the map of the Flannaes, south of the Sea Barons.)



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Thank You Knight Otu.




Yes, thanks K_O. 



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> I had read His entry ... Wow, Iuz kick's back with his great power ! And have some basic "unique cambionic demon lord", Spellike abilities to rely upon. And all those enemies ... Vecna, Tharizdum, Nerull, St. Cuthbert to name just gods. Good that now he is ONLY god present, isnt it?
> ...
> Any suggestions about devolping of my Iuz, Serpenteye, or can I use entry from Dragon ?




You can use the entry from Dragon, or make some alterations to it to adapt it to yourself. Just keep him in the same general level of power.




			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Serpenteye ... most of My empire is a half barren plain, in my resouce sites I have partisans ... or minimal control. Sigh ... must first steel my grip on what I have. Life of an Emperor is constant hadrdship. And they call me evil for all those little pleasures ... sob.




Tell me about it *sigh*, it was the same way for me in the 3rd IR. Rebelling governors, people dropping mountains on my head and others trying to abduct my population...


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 11, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Would almighty dragon care to ally with someone who counts ?



 Sure.  Who would be _that_, though? 



> http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/foru...=1000&x=14&y=13



http://www.enworld.org/forums/forum...stpost&sortorder=asc&daysprune=1000&x=14&y=13

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=502526&postcount=3

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=510491&postcount=7


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 11, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> You can use the entry from Dragon, or make some alterations to it to adapt it to yourself. Just keep him in the same general level of power.




Nay, it fits me the way he is ... or not. Yes, Can I change his domains ?
Not his Deific domains, of course, but his clerical domains I would like to change from Chaos and Evil to Demonic domain, to express his power over demonkind roaming his land, and Pain domain ... to express his personal tastes.   

I will ask one more thing ... Will You allow me to use high level spells or Iuz is as limited in his spellcasting as his clerics ? And ... can I use spells from "Book of Vile Darkness" ? They have there one spell named "Apocalypse from the Sky" Corrupted Magic, lvl 9. VERY devastating and in rather in huge area ... alog the line of fireball but with blast radius of A-bomb. 200 miles if I remember correctly.  

Iuz power level is 50, then ? Average god. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Tell me about it *sigh*, it was the same way for me in the 3rd IR. Rebelling governors, people dropping mountains on my head and others trying to abduct my population...




I will tell You what said famous bandit lord, General Fuji, when he heard that desperate villagers rebelled against him ... to not starve to death.

"I was too good for them. Should kill them on the beggining."

Terror and iron grip is the only way the people would respect, otherwise they will walk all over Your head.   

It is good to be evil.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 13, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=510491&postcount=7




Ah.  That was what I was looking for.  More specifically, the first few posts of 
this, but anyway....


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 13, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Nay, it fits me the way he is ... or not. Yes, Can I change his domains ?
> Not his Deific domains, of course, but his clerical domains I would like to change from Chaos and Evil to Demonic domain, to express his power over demonkind roaming his land, and Pain domain ... to express his personal tastes.




Sure .



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> I will ask one more thing ... Will You allow me to use high level spells or Iuz is as limited in his spellcasting as his clerics ? And ... can I use spells from "Book of Vile Darkness" ? They have there one spell named "Apocalypse from the Sky" Corrupted Magic, lvl 9. VERY devastating and in rather in huge area ... alog the line of fireball but with blast radius of A-bomb. 200 miles if I remember correctly.




Hmm... Yes, I suppose a Demigod would have enough power to grant himself 0-9th level clerical spells if he has the required class levels.
200 miles!?! Seriously? For a spell that powerful there has to be some sort of Major drawback for the caster, right? I'm loath to restrict anything that is official WotC-material, but can anyone tell me that spell is not insanely broken? 
I own but the barest minimum of books for DnD, but you can use anything official as long as it's not too obviously insane. If it is too obviously insane you might have to research it first . Nothing is too broken for the IR but everything has a cost, one way or the other...

-----

I have had a lot to do this week, but next week I will post most of the rules of the game. This is going to happen.

-----

I've asked this before but does anyone have a site for me to post the maps we're going to need for the IR?


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 13, 2004)

The spell requires an artifact, I believe as a material component (meaning it is used up). Also, as a Corrupted spell, it deals ability damage, pretty serious in this case I believe.


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 13, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Hmm... Yes, I suppose a Demigod would have enough power to grant himself 0-9th level clerical spells if he has the required class levels.




Yee ! Beware all who oppose Iuz ! i think that first I will conquer, alone, Underdark. Drow will submit ... without their goddes Mathrons are nothing.
Even their ambassador on my court. Tee Hee. Then Illithid ... mass zombie attack should be enough to subdue these ideal slavers. Drow virgins for my Red Dragon friend ...

Knight Otu, change Dragon's spell list ... it is lacking usefull spells of mass destruction and healing spells. What do You think of Dragon Ascendant prestige class ? It's like created just for You.  

And a steady stream of slaves for my demilich friend. Cannot wait till he would create zombie as hard to destroy as Tarrasque.   

And my alliance with Wolf-god of goblinkind ... After we crush the Theocracy and don't start fight during sharing the spoils, it may be fruitious ... And so called civilised countries can wait for their turn. belive me, time is working for our cause ... We will come to them in peace.   



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> 200 miles!?! Seriously? For a spell that powerful there has to be some sort of Major drawback for the caster, right? I'm loath to restrict anything that is official WotC-material, but can anyone tell me that spell is not insanely broken?
> I own but the barest minimum of books for DnD, but you can use anything official as long as it's not too obviously insane. If it is too obviously insane you might have to research it first . Nothing is too broken for the IR but everything has a cost, one way or the other...




As Knight Otu wrote, It uses up artifact as a material component. Who judges what is artifact ? Yep, You as DM.   
Corruption cost is meaningless for a ... god.  
But normal caster would suffer spell damage 10d6 fire or acid or sonic, 3d6 Constitution damage and 4d6 Wisdom drain. Simply having it memorised causes d3 Wisdom damage per day. That spell is outrageously, almost obscenely powerful. I will agree. But completly broken ? Nay, only a madman have manufacture of artifacts. Since even Epic items aren't artifacts ... 

And for masss destruction I can still use many clerical spells wich have obscenely huge area of effect. "Firestorm" lvl 6, "Storm of Vengance" lvl 9. For my liking arcane magic hides under small stone compared with such devastation.

I draw this ... drastic example just to probe activites that are possible for Iuz. Never played a god before ...   Even never played Epic character.   



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I have had a lot to do this week, but next week I will post most of the rules of the game. This is going to happen.
> 
> I've asked this before but does anyone have a site for me to post the maps we're going to need for the IR?




Sorry, I don't have website.    And about rules, It will happen, I'm eager to help ... share opinion and shamelessly criticize.


----------



## Mr. Draco (Nov 14, 2004)

Hey Serpenteye, unfortunately it looks like I'm going to face a veritable avalanche of work in the upcoming weeks -_-  So I'm gonna have to sit this one out, though I look forward to reading!


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 14, 2004)

As for a website, what about a wikipedia entry, or something?  (I know nothing about wikipedia, except that Living ENworld got an entry).  A wikipedia seems like the sort of thing that would be useful as a repository of information: rules, who's who, stats, maps....


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 16, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> As Knight Otu wrote, It uses up artifact as a material component. Who judges what is artifact ? Yep, You as DM.




:Heh: indeed, . Artifacts won't be easy to find, but they will be out there...



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Sorry, I don't have website.    And about rules, It will happen, I'm eager to help ... share opinion and shamelessly criticize.




 Get ready to criticize. The rules are coming. 



			
				Mr. Draco said:
			
		

> Hey Serpenteye, unfortunately it looks like I'm going to face a veritable avalanche of work in the upcoming weeks -_-  So I'm gonna have to sit this one out, though I look forward to reading!




Feel free to join in whenever you get the time. 



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> As for a website, what about a wikipedia entry, or something?  (I know nothing about wikipedia, except that Living ENworld got an entry).  A wikipedia seems like the sort of thing that would be useful as a repository of information: rules, who's who, stats, maps....




Hmm. I'll find something, I guess.


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 18, 2004)

Eh... I've not abandoned you, don't worry. I've just had some unexpected occurrencies this week. Good stuff, but time-consuming. 

I'll get everything in place well before December 1st.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 19, 2004)

I've had enough of the lies and incompetence of the current regime!  We must smash it's opressive, outdated mechanism and replace it with new, democratic rule by the people, for the people!

Down with Serpenteye!  Long live the revolution!

*Throws a cobblestone through a window*

...

Sorry, just getting into character.


----------



## Guilt Puppy (Nov 19, 2004)

Wow, how did I miss this one for so long?

Since it looks like you _may_ still have room for players left, I'd love to pounce in and claim the Brotherhood, or, if that got claimed and I overlooked it, Lortmil, because, well, Dwarves...

So, well? What's the status?


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 20, 2004)

Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> Wow, how did I miss this one for so long?
> 
> Since it looks like you _may_ still have room for players left, I'd love to pounce in and claim the Brotherhood, or, if that got claimed and I overlooked it, Lortmil, because, well, Dwarves...
> 
> So, well? What's the status?




I'm not the Serpenteye, but from wich I recall these positions might be free for taking still.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 20, 2004)

Blue Genie made tentative mention of those two, and a few others, but we've not heard anything else since; I think if you asked definitively for the Scarlet Brotherhood you'd get it.


----------



## Guilt Puppy (Nov 20, 2004)

Well, consider this a definitive _ask_. Come sunset, you can officially stop taking tomorrow morning for granted.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 20, 2004)

Hurray for eternal night!  This makes me glad that all of my subjects have darkvision.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 21, 2004)

Eek.  Things are definitely looking thin on the good guy side of things....


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 21, 2004)

Remember, we'll be fighting amongst ourselves, to some extent.  You can always make temporary alliances with us, and then throw us to the wolves when it suits your purposes.

Oh, wait; no, you can't.  That'd be _evil._

Edit: left out a verb.  But really, who needs verbs?


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 24, 2004)

Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> I've had enough of the lies and incompetence of the current regime!  We must smash it's opressive, outdated mechanism and replace it with new, democratic rule by the people, for the people!
> 
> Down with Serpenteye!  Long live the revolution!
> 
> ...




Yeah, Down with Me! I suck!  

Seriously, I know it seems like I'm making excuses, but I've been sick with the flu after too much heavy drinking and general screwing around last week. I'm still coughing my lungs out, but I feel good enough to write somewhat coherently once again. But... I'm writing again. And I will have the rules finished in time.



			
				Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> Wow, how did I miss this one for so long?
> 
> Since it looks like you _may_ still have room for players left, I'd love to pounce in and claim the Brotherhood, or, if that got claimed and I overlooked it, Lortmil, because, well, Dwarves...
> 
> So, well? What's the status?




Heh, how can I refuse those puppy-dog eyes? The Scarlet Brotherhood is yours. A major faction indeed, it will make things interesting on the southern flank I'm sure . Welcome Guilt Puppy!


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 24, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Seriously, I know it seems like I'm making excuses, but I've been sick with the flu after too much heavy drinking and general screwing around last week. I'm still coughing my lungs out, but I feel good enough to write somewhat coherently once again. But... I'm writing again. And I will have the rules finished in time.




Chmm ? My enemies started affecting scenery _so_ soon ? Iuz will give them all hot date with his shoe !!!  

And about the excuses ... Dear Serpenteye, as You know Iuz's patience, forgivness, kindness and calmness are unlimited. My doctors can treat Your illness, properly, just follow the guys with sharp and nasty halabards, down into the dungeon. Ignore screams of ... joy that  patients emit during curation, it's from hapiness.    

Like Eclavdra who is ready to swear on the grave of her mother that she hadn't mother. 

OOC: Couldn't stop myself. Wish You to get healthy fast, and if You would screw and drink again ...   Drop the latter, more of first.


----------



## Guilt Puppy (Nov 24, 2004)

Swoo!  This game looks like fun in a bag. A _big_ bag.

Read through Edena's rule description from the 3rd IR, I think I get the gyst of it... Will have to look through a turn or two from the previous games to see how things actually run, but it seems simple enough.

As for a website, how much do you need to be able to do? I have some webspace, but unfortunately my host doesn't support adding extra users, but I can probably put together something manageable, so long as I don't have to do any _heavy_ scripting...


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 24, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> And about the excuses ... Dear Serpenteye, as You know Iuz's patience, forgivness, kindness and calmness are unlimited. My doctors can treat Your illness, properly, just follow the guys with sharp and nasty halabards, down into the dungeon. Ignore screams of ... joy that patients emit during curation, it's from hapiness.



 I think it becomes obvious where that illness came from in the first place, doesn't it?  (hides evidence, and plants false evidence in Iuz' throne room)

 I'll need to tell my puppet, the Overking, that everything is ready for the ascension of Serpenteye into the cult. He'll be a nice replacement for the permanently dead Gulthias. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (ooc - get well soon, Serpenteyes! )


----------



## William Ronald (Nov 25, 2004)

> *Serpenteye originally posted:*
> Seriously, I know it seems like I'm making excuses, but I've been sick with the flu after too much heavy drinking and general screwing around last week. I'm still coughing my lungs out, but I feel good enough to write somewhat coherently once again. But... I'm writing again. And I will have the rules finished in time.




I hope you feel better soon, Serpenteye!!  Perhaps Archcleric Hazen can recommend a regimen of water, fruit juice, soup, and rest.    Also, hello to Gnomeworks, Mr. Draco, and Knight Otu!!

I am sorry that I did not notice this thread earlier, but I have had a very hectic time in grad school these past two months.  How soon might you start an IR and how much time commitment might it require, Serpenteye?  I am not certain if I can join in, as I have to ask how much time will be needed, but I am interested. (When  I also will see what I can do to have people drop by the thread. Would you like me to contact a few old IR stalwarts? I do have some resources available to me.

As I read this, there are some ideas that I would like to throw out to you. If you are familiar with Eberron, the gods there are somewhat distant (indeed, no one can prove they exist) and that model might work for your purposes.  

As for sources of technology, don't forget the modrons.  If you search WotC's website, you can likely find a free Manual of the Planes Web enhancement on these technologically inclined outsiders.  (Possibly devils and modrons might be sources of technological knowledge -- and might be bitter rivals if the modron feel their patent copyrights are being violated.  Ah, lawyers.  )  Additionally, the City of the Gods north of Blackmoor might be another source of technology.  As might a certain site in the Barrier Peaks.  The followers of the quasi-deity Murlynd might have a few things to put into the mix as well.  Also, in the Aquaria setting that Greg Mentzner created for the world of Greyhawk, there was some references to technology in the lands of Aquaria across the Solnor Ocean from the Great Kingdom. Most technological advances can come from a variety of sources and many theories have people advancing them around the same time.  

Serpenteye, I checked and Maudlin's maps seem to be gone.  However, there are some good Greyhawk maps to use in the Maps and Other Campaign resources link in my signature.  You might also want to check out WotC's site for information on the Living Greyhawk campaign as well as Canonfire!, which is a tremendous source of Greyhawk lore.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 25, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Yeah, Down with Me! I suck!
> 
> Seriously, I know it seems like I'm making excuses, but I've been sick with the flu after too much heavy drinking and general screwing around last week.




Eek.  Hey, no worries.  Hope you feel better.  :\


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 25, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> And about the excuses ... Dear Serpenteye, as You know Iuz's patience, forgivness, kindness and calmness are unlimited. My doctors can treat Your illness, properly, just follow the guys with sharp and nasty halabards, down into the dungeon. Ignore screams of ... joy that  patients emit during curation, it's from hapiness.
> 
> Like Eclavdra who is ready to swear on the grave of her mother that she hadn't mother.
> 
> OOC: Couldn't stop myself. Wish You to get healthy fast, and if You would screw and drink again ...   Drop the latter, more of first.




I have the greatest respect for eastern medicine. Maybe some... acupuncture is exactly what I'm needing. 



			
				Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> Swoo!  This game looks like fun in a bag. A _big_ bag.
> 
> Read through Edena's rule description from the 3rd IR, I think I get the gyst of it... Will have to look through a turn or two from the previous games to see how things actually run, but it seems simple enough.
> 
> As for a website, how much do you need to be able to do? I have some webspace, but unfortunately my host doesn't support adding extra users, but I can probably put together something manageable, so long as I don't have to do any _heavy_ scripting...




A big bag of fun! That could be our new promotional slogan. 
-
Good Puppy! We really need this.
I only need room for two pictures (the maps), they shouldn't take up more than one megabite of web-space, probably less. 
I am completely ignorant when it comes to scripting, but I can't imagine it would be very hard to get it to work, assuming you have the space.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I think it becomes obvious where that illness came from in the first place, doesn't it?  (hides evidence, and plants false evidence in Iuz' throne room)
> 
> I'll need to tell my puppet, the Overking, that everything is ready for the ascension of Serpenteye into the cult. He'll be a nice replacement for the permanently dead Gulthias.
> 
> ...




Remember gentle tyrants that there is no point in cursing me with diseases until you have achieved your goals in the war. Then, if I should be permanently incapacitated, your conquests will be preserved for an eternity. The current status quo could hardly be satisfactory for any of you, 'cause though you are powerful your enemies are equally so.

(thanks )



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I hope you feel better soon, Serpenteye!!  Perhaps Archcleric Hazen can recommend a regimen of water, fruit juice, soup, and rest.    Also, hello to Gnomeworks, Mr. Draco, and Knight Otu!!
> 
> I am sorry that I did not notice this thread earlier, but I have had a very hectic time in grad school these past two months.  How soon might you start an IR and how much time commitment might it require, Serpenteye?  I am not certain if I can join in, as I have to ask how much time will be needed, but I am interested. (When  I also will see what I can do to have people drop by the thread. Would you like me to contact a few old IR stalwarts? I do have some resources available to me.
> 
> ...




It's always nice to see you again WR! Welcome to the IR.
Your resource-thread has been very useful to me, and I imagine a lot of other people. I never got the chance to thank you for it so I do so now. 

The plan is that I will start the game in the first week of December. If I can get well enough to think clearly soon, and it seems I am, that's when the game will begin. 
I do not plan to let the game get quite as fast-paced as Edena's 3rd IR did, I'd burn myself out within a week if I did that, but I do want it to move a lot faster than games usually do here. Everyone can post as often as they like, of course, but I'll set the pace of the action to a level that is comfortable for most of us. If you can post once a day most days you should be able to keep up and still be able to count as a major player. 
Please do contact some of our old friends, this kind of game only gets better the more people play it. I don't want anyone to play the same faction they did last time, because I believe that would be boring, repetitive and predictable for them, but there's no other restrictions. We really need some more Good-aligned players. The IR is going to be dark and dangerous, but just because I usually play Evil doesn't mean I favoritize that side.

There will be a lot less "factional fast healing" this time around. Defeating your enemies will actually make them weaker. Some factions will be killed and removed from play. But that's the same for everybody, and the players can still stay around even if their factions are defeated. You can always roll up a new PC. 

I think I've got the plot concerning the gods and the arrival of technology down pretty good. But yes, there are plenty of possible sources of tech, some of which are less obscure than others.
 Since the game will advance in three-month turns (seasons), there won't really be enough time to realistically research technology. Instead you are going to be given plenty of high technology from the start, and the technological arms race will be more about finding advanced schematics, building up the necessary industrial infrastructure and applying technology incrementally than actually coming up with everything from scratch. (It's pretty much abstracted, and basically comes down to assigning resources (power points) at the beginning of the turn.)



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Eek.  Hey, no worries.  Hope you feel better.  :\




Thanks.  I'm getting there.


----------



## Guilt Puppy (Nov 25, 2004)

Serpenteye: http://www.rowf.net/ir/, not a problem at all. Ain't pretty, but it works.

William Ronald: Thanks for the link to Canonfire! I've been trying to get some web research going, but unfortunately it's hard to tell with most pages what's canon and what's just somebody's personal campaign info.


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 25, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I have the greatest respect for eastern medicine. Maybe some... acupuncture is exactly what I'm needing.




The pokers are heating in coal ...  
As for acupuncture, covering whole body is cruicial, don't You think so ? My chief ... doctor advises three hours daily, in iron maiden.  



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Remember gentle tyrants that there is no point in cursing me with diseases until you have achieved your goals in the war. Then, if I should be permanently incapacitated, your conquests will be preserved for an eternity. The current status quo could hardly be satisfactory for any of you, 'cause though you are powerful your enemies are equally so.




Ilness ? Phew, it is surely work of the Tharizdun fantics, like evidences that I found in my throne room are stating. I must thank Ashardalon apporiately for finding them.  

*Dragon's regenerated heart misses one beat.   *



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> The plan is that I will start the game in the first week of December. If I can get well enough to think clearly soon, and it seems I am, that's when the game will begin.
> I do not plan to let the game get quite as fast-paced as Edena's 3rd IR did, I'd burn myself out within a week if I did that, but I do want it to move a lot faster than games usually do here. Everyone can post as often as they like, of course, but I'll set the pace of the action to a level that is comfortable for most of us. If you can post once a day most days you should be able to keep up and still be able to count as a major player.




But with all these secret plots ... Yum, You will have a lot of paperwork. 
Maybe if Iuz kill everyone else, echem, our DM would have less ... work ? 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> We really need some more Good-aligned players. The IR is going to be dark and dangerous, but just because I usually play Evil doesn't mean I favoritize that side.




Yee, I need some good doers to thwart plans of my enemies. I mean o have prey for my humours.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> There will be a lot less "factional fast healing" this time around. Defeating your enemies will actually make them weaker. Some factions will be killed and removed from play. But that's the same for everybody, and the players can still stay around even if their factions are defeated. You can always roll up a new PC.




Or be immortal ... But from the other way can, for example, evil warlord flee from ruins of his palace ... went to the other corner of the world, where nobody knows him and make fresh start ?    



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I think I've got the plot concerning the gods and the arrival of technology down pretty good. But yes, there are plenty of possible sources of tech, some of which are less obscure than others.
> Since the game will advance in three-month turns (seasons), there won't really be enough time to realistically research technology. Instead you are going to be given plenty of high technology from the start, and the technological arms race will be more about finding advanced schematics, building up the necessary industrial infrastructure and applying technology incrementally than actually coming up with everything from scratch. (It's pretty much abstracted, and basically comes down to assigning resources (power points) at the beginning of the turn.)




Yes, my doctors are busy working with my devil guests ...


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 25, 2004)

Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> Serpenteye: http://www.rowf.net/ir/, not a problem at all. Ain't pretty, but it works.




Eexcellent , thanks.




			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Or be immortal ... But from the other way can, for example, evil warlord flee from ruins of his palace ... went to the other corner of the world, where nobody knows him and make fresh start ?




That's not impossible. It is also not impossible that the evil warlord will have to spend some time under the tender mercies of his enemies before he manages to escape. Perhaps he'll enjoy some therapeutic massage or a hot bath in acid...


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 25, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Then, if I should be permanently incapacitated, your conquests will be preserved for an eternity. The current status quo could hardly be satisfactory for any of you, 'cause though you are powerful your enemies are equally so.



 Who said anything about "permanently incapacitated"? Not me, certainly. The cult of Ashardalon doesn't waste important resources like that.Mind control and vampirism are great, aren't they?


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 25, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Who said anything about "permanently incapacitated"? Not me, certainly. The cult of Ashardalon doesn't waste important resources like that.Mind control and vampirism are great, aren't they?




It's good to know that I still have some  friends.  


Anyhow... Here's a little sample of what I'm working on right now. Critique away! (It's not finished.) I'm not at all sure about the specific numbers, not to mention the spelling, but this should give you some insight into my fevered mind. 




> *The Rules of the SerpentEye IR*
> 
> Above all else the IR is a game about power (and having fun while gaining and losing power). The object of the game is power and the means to the end is power. There are many different expressions of power. A brilliant speach or diplomatic negotiation can in the right circumstances guarantee your victory. Propaganda and manipulation are vital tools to control your own population, NPC-factions and even the other players. Role-playing is your most vital and decicive tool to acheive true power. But there is much more to the game.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 26, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It's good to know that I still have some  friends.
> 
> Anyhow... Here's a little sample of what I'm working on right now. Critique away! (It's not finished.) I'm not at all sure about the specific numbers, not to mention the spelling, but this should give you some insight into my fevered mind.




Chmm ... I think that Iuz have a lot of Regular armies from the beggining, ie Orcs and Hobgoblins for example ... Chmm, from the other side ... they might just be big amount of Militia, undisciplined bunch. Legion of the Black Death is surely Elite army, tee hee. And if Iuz himself isn't Epic, then nobody is. I can see devastation coming to my enemies.   

So ... Acererak will invent Arcane, Wolf-god would lend a hand in getting rid off the Theocracy of the Pale, Iuz will make _peace_ truce with Furyondy. With his over +70 Diplomacy it should work.  
I guess that citizens of my land grew fat and lazy without their's god tender attention. We will change that. From where get this 22 lvl of technology, to make USSI ? United Soviet States of Iuz, by the way.  

And as for spells, in Brightright were spells requing Resouces and Whole Guild of Mages/Big Churches full of Devotees, called Realm Spells They were like regular magic, but appllied to numerous units. For example Arcane Spell "Invisibility" affects one guy, isn't it ? Realm version of this spell may affect one unit of infantry. I think it may simplify whole magic system more  than devising these uber lvl spells and High Magic, and be a lot safer.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 26, 2004)

_Cool._

That's my initial reaction.  I have no idea about the balance of it.

How would guerilla warfare work?  I.e, some random poor shmuck of a patrol gets hit by a fullisade of Javelins in the middle of the night, or the local barracks gets hit with a flaming flask of oil, all done by everyday citizens or irregular units.  The only way to respond is by disrupting their own work force....

See, no sane Militia (or regular) unit will face a better-equiped or better-trained or better-manned force in the open and try to wipe it out, whereas harrassment and general inconvience are excellent options. 

The other things I disagreed with a little was the Militia not benifiting from technology- as I understand it, the reason the arquebus was so popular was that it was cheap (no wood or craftsmanship involved, like the crossbow or longbow) and simple to use (even _more_ simple than the crossbow, by some accounts), even if it was less accurate, less reliable and maybe even less powerful.  Which meant you could mass produce them and shove them in the hands of peasants after a week or three of training.

Even if they only hit on a natural 20, several hundred Commoner 1's with primitive firearms would be a little frightening)


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 26, 2004)

Well, militia progress up until 1700's-equivalent tech; it's true that after that point, improvements are in the form of more work-intensive weapons such as rifles and breech-loading weapons, which are too expensive to give to untrained troops.

A concern for game balance: numerical superiority has, as written, no effect on whether a group of individuals can inflict damage on an opponent, merely how much is inflicted if it does work.  This means that ten million regular troops cannot ever kill a single epic individual; unless they are allowed to merely bypass him and continue on into the targeted region, that means there's no reason ever to use sub-epic combatants as defenders.


----------



## Eluvan (Nov 26, 2004)

Well... no point to use them against epic combatants, no. Makes sense to me. Would you throw an undisciplined rabble in the way of an Archmage? Not if you have any sense. 

 Can we get some info on how Infiltration will work? Pleeeeeease?


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 26, 2004)

Could we get a new player list, with e-mail for covert contact?  I mean, we _could_ just use the spoiler tag, but covert contact is best if people don't know it's even happening. 

-Thomas, who is certainly isn't considering alliance with those not actively engaged in plunging the world into darkness and suffering.


----------



## Serpenteye (Nov 26, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Chmm ... I think that Iuz have a lot of Regular armies from the beggining, ie Orcs and Hobgoblins for example ... Chmm, from the other side ... they might just be big amount of Militia, undisciplined bunch. Legion of the Black Death is surely Elite army, tee hee. And if Iuz himself isn't Epic, then nobody is. I can see devastation coming to my enemies.




You would start out with a rather big army, though some of your territories won't be very productive and your population won't be quite as high as some of the other factions (because of the climate and general brutality of the regime ). Your Militia will not be quite as weak as everybody elses because of your divinity. You'd do well pursuing industry, but war might be a better option before your richer neigbours catch up to you.



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> So ... Acererak will invent Arcane, Wolf-god would lend a hand in getting rid off the Theocracy of the Pale, Iuz will make _peace_ truce with Furyondy. With his over +70 Diplomacy it should work.
> I guess that citizens of my land grew fat and lazy without their's god tender attention. We will change that. From where get this 22 lvl of technology, to make USSI ? United Soviet States of Iuz, by the way.




Stalinism is a way of life, not a technology that needs to be laboriously researched and applied. You can proclaim yourself a communistic state any time you like. It will take some time to build the gulags and develop the cult of personality, but you already have quite a head-start, being a Demi-God already.



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> And as for spells, in Brightright were spells requing Resouces and Whole Guild of Mages/Big Churches full of Devotees, called Realm Spells They were like regular magic, but appllied to numerous units. For example Arcane Spell "Invisibility" affects one guy, isn't it ? Realm version of this spell may affect one unit of infantry. I think it may simplify whole magic system more  than devising these uber lvl spells and High Magic, and be a lot safer.




Hmm, I think Xael would prefer to be able to eventually melt continents... Industry is powerful so magic has to be equally so to balance your factions against each others and make for some difficult choices for you.



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> _Cool._
> 
> That's my initial reaction.  I have no idea about the balance of it.




Thanks .
 Some of the numbers may change here and there if it seems unbalanced when I've put everything together.



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> How would guerilla warfare work?  I.e, some random poor shmuck of a patrol gets hit by a fullisade of Javelins in the middle of the night, or the local barracks gets hit with a flaming flask of oil, all done by everyday citizens or irregular units.  The only way to respond is by disrupting their own work force....
> 
> See, no sane Militia (or regular) unit will face a better-equiped or better-trained or better-manned force in the open and try to wipe it out, whereas harrassment and general inconvience are excellent options.
> 
> ...




It's an advantage of Militia, especially in defence, that they can spread out and harass a more powerful but less numerous enemy.
 Guerilla warfare works much like normal warfare. The Guerilla counts as the attacker, thereby getting a chance to do damage first, and uses local numerical superiority to inflict heavy damage on their target. I won't roll every single combat, of course, but I will roll guerilla warfare province by province. Only a part of the Regular or Militia forces of the enemy will be targeted at any given time, giving the guerilla an advantage of numbers.
 Guerilla forces are however vulnerable against Elite of Epic forces, who can use divinations to track them down. They will count as the attacker against a fraction of the Guerilla forces in the province at any given time, and will be an effective way of rooting out an insurrection although it will take them much valuable time.
Elite or Epic forces can also be used as guerilla forces, but that's considered the norm and works exactly like normal warfare.




			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Well, militia progress up until 1700's-equivalent tech; it's true that after that point, improvements are in the form of more work-intensive weapons such as rifles and breech-loading weapons, which are too expensive to give to untrained troops.




Exactly .



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> A concern for game balance: numerical superiority has, as written, no effect on whether a group of individuals can inflict damage on an opponent, merely how much is inflicted if it does work.  This means that ten million regular troops cannot ever kill a single epic individual; unless they are allowed to merely bypass him and continue on into the targeted region, that means there's no reason ever to use sub-epic combatants as defenders.




They are allowed to try to bypass just about anything, in the case of Epic opponents that might just be to smart thing to do. It is very difficult for millions of 1st level commoners to do any damage to a 32 HD Dragon, or 20th level Archmage or a high level fighter with millions of GPs worth of magical equipment. That's DnD.
However, it's very expensive to create Epic PLs. It takes a lot of time and PPts to do it, and if you want 10th level spells you will have to burn plenty of Epic PLs do get it .
Besides, you need a quantity of troops to occupy and keep the peace in a conquered territory. Sure, you can terrorize and threaten the people with annihilation from Epic forces if they don't behave, but it's probably more effective to keep troops on the ground. (oot: Just think of the situation in Iraq. The American military could keep the peace by nuking the country to death, but that would damage their reputation and keep the country permanently unproductive. They need troops (Regulars) on the ground to try to keep the peace and eventually possibly get a return on their investment. It works the same way in the IR.)



			
				Eluvan said:
			
		

> Well... no point to use them against epic combatants, no. Makes sense to me. Would you throw an undisciplined rabble in the way of an Archmage? Not if you have any sense.
> 
> Can we get some info on how Infiltration will work? Pleeeeeease?




Exactly. The best way to fight Epic PLs is by using a greater number of Epic or Elite PLs yourself. It's DnD.

And Yes.



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Could we get a new player list, with e-mail for covert contact?  I mean, we _could_ just use the spoiler tag, but covert contact is best if people don't know it's even happening.




Sure you can. Just Copy-Paste my player list, fill in the latest claims, and get everybody to fill in their E-Mails.
I'll do it, but you might get it faster is you work together .


----------



## William Ronald (Nov 27, 2004)

*If I had world enough and time...*

Serpenteye, I will likely be very busy during the next few weeks working on some of what I have had to put on hold.  So, I probably won't be able to join in -- however, I will try to observe in between working on my homebrew setting, fiction, work, and a few necessary household projects.  I will send an e-mail out to some of our past IR members.  (I have to try to balance my time out, so now that I know I will be busy, I will have to remain an observer.  Essentially, I had to put everything but grad school work on hold for the past few months.) However, I will send out an e-mail and I did ask some people to stop by here. 

An IR requires a fair amount of commitment, and I can't be sure if I can post everyday as a few good things are in the works. So, since I wonder if I can truly give this game the attention and effort it deserves, I am a bit reluctant to commit.

As things stand, you might want to list the possible factions for people and work on getting a commitment. (You may need a while to get more people to make a commitment. It is nearly December, and several people are likely busy with the holidays.  A key question is how many countries and factions are there in the game, as this can determine a minimal number of players that you need.) You might want to decide how long you will run the game. One of the problems in the 3rd IR was that some people left because of lack of time.  So, perhaps pacing is important.

As for diplomacy, PCs interacting with other PCs always have an advantage: free will.  So, people may well rely on their judgements than die rolls.  Perhaps one thing that people should keep in mind is that alliances often are based on mutual interests -- so, I would suggest the players to look for what they might have in common. 

So, as I wrap up this post, I would like to suggest that everyone here who will play try to contact some other EN Worlders to join in.  While I will be busy with a few things, I will watch this with great interest.  Perhaps a key thing for everyone to remember is that together people can accomplish much more than they can singularly.


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 27, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> You would start out with a rather big army, though some of your territories won't be very productive and your population won't be quite as high as some of the other factions (because of the climate and general brutality of the regime ). Your Militia will not be quite as weak as everybody elses because of your divinity. You'd do well pursuing industry, but war might be a better option before your richer neigbours catch up to you.




Increase Divine status then, but Priority will be industrialisation. And hiring some Demons who can understand my "vision".Or die in pain.

I cannot wait to strenghten my grip over empire ! Until I will squezze all juices out of it. And brutal regime is neccesary, people can be ruled trough fear only ... I don't want to have any democratic swamp here !   

Besides, my caring embrance over my people is good from evolutionary point of view ... Survival for the strong, weak die !   



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Stalinism is a way of life, not a technology that needs to be laboriously researched and applied. You can proclaim yourself a communistic state any time you like. It will take some time to build the gulags and develop the cult of personality, but you already have quite a head-start, being a Demi-God already.




Tsk, tsk ... what stalinism ? Iuz-ism if anything.   
First of all, pacify Orcs and increase number of Demons at my disposal. Do Demons count as "normal" race or they are incapable of increasing their numbers ? Melt some troubles in neighbourn countries ... just to buy time. I think that diplomatic exchange might be good headstart.   Hate politics.

And I think of something more along the line with another form of socialism, this one devolped by degenerate madman with funny litte moustache.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Hmm, I think Xael would prefer to be able to eventually melt continents... Industry is powerful so magic has to be equally so to balance your factions against each others and make for some difficult choices for you.




Divine magic, Divine magic, Divine magic and for good meansure a bit of Divine magic. There are rules how to increase my Divine status, yes ?  
Chmm ... missionaries all around the world to increase "divine energy" cap and hire some spies in the Greyhawk city ... just to know things not only from the Boneshadow. I don't trust them.  

Are ther any helpful Greayhawk citizens around ?  

And velcome Venus !      

P.S. Dear DM ... Can I change Iuz ? I think that distribution of feats need some improvement ... tinkering, some of them are illogically distributed ... Need to work over them a bit. And I think about simplified rules for deities, all this rambling about divine "ranks" is making me confused. God isn't a class to have lvl's isn't it ? And should I transform him to 3,5 edition ?


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## Gurdjieff (Nov 27, 2004)

You... You... Maniac! 
I haven't decided which faction I'll play, but I have decided that I'm in!


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## The Forsaken One (Nov 27, 2004)

I just found out abuot this threads thanks to William. I'll read up on it later today or else tomorrow. Expect a reply


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 27, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Sure you can. Just Copy-Paste my player list, fill in the latest claims, and get everybody to fill in their E-Mails.
> I'll do it, but you might get it faster is you work together .




Touche.   My apologies, I feel quite embarassed now... especially since rampant insomnia is giving me lots of free time when no one else is awake to talk to and I'm too tired to read books.

The List, and further reponse to the whole militia thing (current reponse is mostly "Well, that makes sense.") coming after breakfast.

edit: As a quick aside to Iuz (and here I put a "as far as I know and I'm not an expert on the subject" disclaimer), fascism lacked any sort of real policy or ideology other than "power is neat" and a bunch of "motivating passions" (as they were described to me) that were less things along the lines of "The workers are entitled to... [long philisophical treatise]" and more simple emotional or otherwise non-logic-based appeals that, for better or worse, don't work so hot when your head of state is an intensely evil demigod.    Organize your finacial system however it works best, and rule over your people with an iron fist; all the appeal you have to make is "Do it or be horrribly tortured/Do it and be rewarded with power beyond your wildest dreams at the hand of the great god Iuz" and the only justification for whatever economic system you settle on is "This is most efficient at promoting the glorious rise of the great god Iuz." 

Edit- one more quick thing before breakfast... theoretically, fascism could rise as a _response_ to Iuz, if there's ever a rebellion against him; since a big part of it is the glorious revival of a paticular nationality/ethnic group/what have you that has fallen prey to lesser whatsits, theoretically his conqurred lands could have something similar rise up as an attempt to regain a national identity seperate from this Godling who conquered them and brought in these Demons/Orcs/Whathaveyou.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 27, 2004)

Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> edit: As a quick aside to Iuz (and here I put a "as far as I know and I'm not an expert on the subject" disclaimer), fascism lacked any sort of real policy or ideology other than "power is neat" and a bunch of "motivating passions" (as they were described to me) that were less things along the lines of "The workers are entitled to... [long philisophical treatise]" and more simple emotional or otherwise non-logic-based appeals that, for better or worse, don't work so hot when your head of state is an intensely evil demigod.    Organize your finacial system however it works best, and rule over your people with an iron fist; all the appeal you have to make is "Do it or be horrribly tortured/Do it and be rewarded with power beyond your wildest dreams at the hand of the great god Iuz" and the only justification for whatever economic system you settle on is "This is most efficient at promoting the glorious rise of the great god Iuz."




I thought of Hitler because of obscenely high Diplomacy score that Iuz's entry from "Dragon" have, and suggestion from our DM about personality worshipping. Having it on the level of +70 make impressive speeches quite easy. (Imagine good ol' pre battle warming up that general shouts to his soldiers. And imagine Iuz, being of inmense power, already worshipped by most of his troops ... if he would make impressive speech before the battle, his men/orcs/whathaveyou would fight like possesed ! Even simple and favourite "Kill 'em all !" would be treated ... as if god has spoken.   )

And what I remeber, aside of mindless slaughter of millions of people, about fascism is it that mr A. was able to influence people greatly just by performing inpassionate speeches. Even W. Churchill was impressed, and he wasn't ordinary bread eater, don't You think ?

But Yes, You are right ... if Drow elves could organise themsleves under reign of this stupid girl, Lolth. And everybody know how ... undisciplined elves are.  Then Iuz's subjects should make it better and faster. Civilisation is inevitable, but Iuz must shape it carefully or be swept aside by tide of times.

Organise clear, and profitable sources of income ... coins could have Iuz's profile on one side and skull on the other side. Later devastate competition ... Ach, Iuz might even wrote, ehem, dictate book about trade. " Businessman Handbook." 

Thanks for the tips. By the way, maybe yOu will be spared after all.   

But using propaganda for Iuz's benefit and increasement of faithful worshippers is still juicy option. Send some "Iuz's Witnesses" trained in uninvasive brainwashing techniques to the poor and show them that goo ... *spat*, great god Iuz is watching them and is interested in their ... best.  



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Edit- one more quick thing before breakfast... theoretically, fascism could rise as a _response_ to Iuz, if there's ever a rebellion against him; since a big part of it is the glorious revival of a paticular nationality/ethnic group/what have you that has fallen prey to lesser whatsits, theoretically his conqurred lands could have something similar rise up as an attempt to regain a national identity seperate from this Godling who conquered them and brought in these Demons/Orcs/Whathaveyou.




From the time of Greyhawk Wars 20 years has passed ... do You think that it were not enough time to copletly strenghten Iuz's grip over the lands conquered ? As Serpenteye pointed out only Vesve elves still trouble Empire and some dying remmants of partisans from other forest ... wich live by grace of Iuz, and as focal point for all those who might cause big troubles othervise.


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## The Forsaken One (Nov 27, 2004)

> Gulf of Ra: A deep body reputed to hide a kingdom of sahuagin.
> Land of Black Ice (Unknown)
> The Troll Fens (Mostly Trolls)



Are the stuff I'm thinking about claiming. Formians are tempting as I introduced them to Greyhawk  (They aren't native there Serpenteye, I asked if I could use them there ). But it's so cliche... I'll be wanting to play a Troll Kingdom/Nation or the Sahuagins. In any case something nature themed, a druidic society. A druocracy . 

Sahuagin or Troll druid ruled kingdom or two would suit my wishes best.

Good luck with this show  You'll need it


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## Zelda Themelin (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi I got Williams's e-mail and got here to see. Ok, it was gone to my spam-box for some reason, so it took some time before I noticed it.

Quite an amazing number of intrest. I come back to read some more, when I have time.


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## Xael (Nov 28, 2004)

Rules look nice. Just checking in so that you know I'm still alive.


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## Gurdjieff (Nov 28, 2004)

Things I'm thinking of claiming:


> - Orcreich: A nation of orcs ruled by a tyrannical king. The orcs seem to thrive under the brutal regime.
> -High Khanate: An and land peopled by two tribes of sturdy nomads. The inlanders resemble the horsemen of the Balkanish (Baklunish? RH) Basin, but on the coast they take to boats.
> - Low Khanate: A companion realm to the High Khanate; named more for its location in a deep vale below the mountains than for any inferior status. A hidden valley reputedly contains the tombs of khans from both realms.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 28, 2004)

(hobbles in on his cane)

  Hey there, Serpenteye, you'all.  Thanks for the invite!  
  Let me have a look at this thread.  It is over 7 pages, and need some time to grasp it all.  I am interested in the game.

  Edena_of_Neith


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## James Heard (Nov 28, 2004)

Ok, this looks interesting and I've seen the rules but I still have absolutely no clue what it's all about- like little details such as "what does IR stand for?" and "are you already full?"


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## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 28, 2004)

"Industrial Revolution" and "No, we're not full."


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## James Heard (Nov 28, 2004)

Hah, ok. So what about some sort of loose collection of bards of some sort? The rock and roll faction? Novelists for change? Poets of Elan? The Spears of Britney? Barring that I think I could do with sailors, any sailor's nations left?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 28, 2004)

(said hesitantly)

  I request to take control of a power not listed:  the Drow of the Underdark.
  I'm assuming the drow live under the great mountain ranges:

  The drow of the Sulhaut Mountains
  The drow of the Hellfurnaces
  The drow of the Crystalmists
  The drow of the Barrier Peaks
  The drow of the Yatils.
  The drow of the Lortmils
  The drow of the Rakers
  The drow of the Griff Mountains
  The drow of the Corusk Mountains
  The drow of the Glorioles (around Sunndi)
  The drow of the Tilvanot Peninsula
  The drow of the Bright Hills (around the Bright Desert)

  There are drow elsewhere on Oerth, of course, but these are well known areas on the map.  If the drow enclaves above lack sufficient strength, perhaps there are drow enclaves under the dark forests of the Flanaess? (Adri, Celadan, Gamboge, Fellreev, Vesve, Grandwood ... some of those forests are really big and dark!)

  The drow are, naturally, alarmed at the loss of Lolth, Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun, and Kiransath.  Then there is this new thing come to the world:  technology, brought by the Devils (enemies of the drow if ever they had enemies.)  And now the surface world is getting too big for it's britches, and perhaps has become a serious threat to the drow.

  And who would lead them?

  Eclavdra (I know that isn't the right spelling) comes to mind.  She could have advanced considerably in power during the past 20 years.
  I remember she was a cleric of either Lolth or Ghaunadaur (I think it was Ghaunadaur.)  Perhaps she became a cleric/fighter/mage?  And advanced to considerable level in those classes?
  Eclavdra was a diplomat in her own right, if I remember her correctly.  She played a large role in the Giant Troubles.  She had a way of uniting her fractious people against common enemies.  Perhaps in the dangerous situation that exists now (the drow aren't stupid:  they can see a looming threat when it hits them in the face) they would follow her?

  Mind you, I'm referring only to the drow and their immediate slaves.  Not to any of the other races or powers of the Underdark (such as the illithid and aboleth.)  
  If there is a contested situation over the drow of the Hellfurnaces/Barrier Peaks/Crystalmists, please tell me.  I was assuming only the surface races of those savage mountains were claimed.

  Obviously, I'm not trying to claim control of the good drow of Eilistraee.

  If you give me the drow or some of the drow, Serpenteye, I will have to come up with a name for the new drow nation.  Hmmm ... I wonder what Eclavdra would name her new kingdom?  Hmmm ... names, names ...


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 28, 2004)

I note three major powers on the map have not been claimed:  the Kevellond League, the Baklunish nations, and Nyrond (and the Urnst nations?)

  Nobody has claimed the Knights of Luna, the Knights of the Hart, or any of the similar organizations.

  Serpenteye, are any of the powers of Greyspace allowed?
  You know, the Elven Imperial Spelljamming Navy?
  The Scro Fleet?
  The Illithid Squid Ships?
  The Neogi (and their Umber Hulk slaves) Pirates?
  The Dwarven Mountainjammers?
  The Gnomish Sidewheelers?
  The Gith Mercenaries?

  Also, were any of the Astral Races, such as the Githyanki and Githzerai (or some of the Githyanki and Githzerai) trapped in this dimension when it was sealed up?  Are they up for grabs?

  Are the Faerie Peoples of Oerth up for grabs?
  Are the Unseelie Peoples of Oerth up for grabs?

  Has anyone claimed the Ice Elves of the Adri Forest?  Or do they exist in this IR?  (remember that they were highly evil, corrupted by an artifact of cold that froze their city in the bitterest cold for millennia.  In the 3rd IR, it was assumed they had thawed out and mastered the artifact.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 29, 2004)

*To Serpenteye:  the Solistarim*

If the drow are disallowed, may I lay claim to a concept for Oerth I created on my own?
  This concept would be the Solistarim.  Led by an evil wizard, they are a confederation of primarily lawful and neutral evil races up in the Godspires (a mountain range that covers the tip of the Flanaess from the Black Ice northward.)
  The primary races of the Solistarim, in my conception, were the following (all live in the Godspires, Black Ice, or immediately adjacent to it on land, sea, and air) :

  A large community of native flannae humans determined to take the Flanaess back from the usurpers (meaning, all the other humans groups:  the suel, the baklunish, and the oerdians.)  They have set up great schools of magic under their lord, and have gone far along the Suel Imperium's road in their pursuit of magical understandings.
  A large community of deep and grey dwarves from the Underdark, with great magic, allied with them.
  A large community of evil gnomes from the Underdark, also with great magic, allied with them.
  A very large community of kobolds, led by kobold wizards and sorcerers.
  The dragons of the Godspires (the survivors:  mostly blue dragons and dracoliches under magical control.  The Solistarim killed most of the Godspire dragons in battles involving horrendous losses for themselves.)  These dragons have generally bonded with the flannae humans (and a couple of others) and live in symbiotic existence with them.

  A very large community of lizard men and lizard kings.
  Two large communities of sahuagin, one in the western coastal waters, and one in the eastern coastal waters.
  The giants of the Godspires:  mostly fire, but some frost, stone, hill, formian, and ettin.

  A large community of illithid from the Underdark.  (The alliance is one of convenience only, since the illithid consider the people of the Flanaess easier prey than their magically powerful neighbors.  Since the Solistarim intend war, fresh brains will be all the easier to procur.)
  Several beholder hives in the Godspires, totalling several hundred beholders (The beholders attacked the Solistarim on sight, but the greater number of them perished.  The remainder were successfully charmed, and the Solistarim maintain the charmed state carefully.)
  A modest but extremely potent group of aboleth in the deepest Underdark.  (The aboleth ally with nobody.  These are the survivors, after the Solistarim attacked and destroyed their community.  All the fairly numerous survivors are under heavy charm compulsion.)

  A large group of extraplanar beings:  fire elementals, salamanders, efreeti, who happen to enjoy living in the volcanic regions of the Godspires and who have abandoned their home planes.  (This group is allied to the Solistarim more out of whim than anything else.  After all, the Solistarim mean to burn things, and burning things is fun.)

  A LARGE army of assorted undead, kept under control by dark magic.  Several liches have thrown their lot in with the Solistarim, for some reason, which has enhanced their ability to create and manipulate such lethal forces.

  A small number of devils, who are allied with the Solistarim for their own, dark purposes.

  If Wildspace is included, the Solistarim also count as allies:

  A sizeable group of gith mercenaries, on permanent standby.
  A number of neogi pirates, who act as scouts (for extremely high pay and countless slaves taken.)
  A large fleet of illithid squid ships (the illithid of Wildspace are in contact with their Underdark brethren in the Godspires.)

  The Solistarim WILL NOT ABIDE the following:

  Orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, gnolls, flind, ogres, and most other humanoids.
  Drow.
  Elves of any kind, including half-elves.
  Humans of suel, baklunish, and oeridian stock.
  Demons (that includes Iuz.)

  Historically, the Solistarim have killed members of these races on sight, when they set foot in Solistarim lands or waters.


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## Creamsteak (Nov 29, 2004)

Heh... if you give Edena the Drow, I want to play...

_...the Illithids..._


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## William Ronald (Nov 29, 2004)

*Some observations*

As I said previously, I will likely be pretty swamped catching up on things.  However, I would like to help serve as a resource if I find a question I can answer for people.  (Working on a homebrew and fiction is likely going to be time consuming.  So, I will be reluctant to make any commitment that I can't keep. I did not yet receive an answer on the time involved.  I do know that I can't put in as much energy as I did in the 3rd IR.)  I am glad that my e-mail helped out.  Hello to Edena, Creamsteak, and Zelda!!

Edena, Eclavdra is a priestess of Lolth, and is listed in the Epic Level Handbook as a 23rd level cleric.  She is not particularly charismatic, but is known for her cunning and her cruelty.   (You got the spelling right.)

In addition to Nyrond, the states of the Iron League, such as Onnwal and Sunddi, and the Urnst states have a traditional foe in the Great Kingdom.  They might make a good unit of states for a faction to claim with the possible addition of the Theocracy of the Pale and the Duchy of Tenh.

The player claiming Greyhawk may well have trouble with the Bright Desert and Rary the Archmage.  The person playing Greyhawk may want to claim the Wild Coast or at least make contact with whoever controls the surrounding good and neutral aligned powers as a possible ally. The city is roughly between the spheres of influence of the Nyrond-Urnst states as well as Veluna and Furyondy.  It is also near to the lands of Iuz.  The Gem of the Flanaess may be a great prize in the IR.

It should be noted that Iuz is chaotic evil, and that much of the discipline of his troops often relies on fear of his retribution.  In the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, his control over parts of the former Bandit Kingdoms is somewhat lose.

If Edena does play the Solistarrim, his character may have access to the City of the Gods.  If this seems a bit much, there are other ways to help balance this out as suggested in an earlier post.  

As for the Forsaken One, possibly the Bone March might be a good location for a troll-ruled kingdom.  The area is  full of humanoids.  (Bugbear controlled the Bone March in Edena's IR.)  A possible place for a sahuaghin kingdom might be off the shores of the Hold of the Sea Princes -- which I recall is under Scarlet Brotherhood influence.  (As I recall, no one has claimed the Scarlet Brotherhood, which like the Solistarrim is moved by racial hatred.) Possibly, new powers might be created from land held by nations on the official map -- without loss of power to that faction.  

James Heard, I think you might be interested in the Hold of the Sea Princes as a naval power.

So far, it looks like few good or neutral powers have been claimed.  These can be powerful in their own right with the right leadership.


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## James Heard (Nov 29, 2004)

Ok, so I'll take the Sea Princes if no one minds. After reading the LGG entry it sounds suitably anarchistic and removed from the worries of the rest of the world. Maybe I'll even attempt to turn my nation of pirates into bardic pirates...


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## Paxus Asclepius (Nov 29, 2004)

Go ahead, but be warned: should you attempt to steal upon me with catlike tread, a mere profession that you love your Queen will not save you.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 29, 2004)

Thank you, William.  

  The Solistarim do not control the City of the Gods.  Their forays into it have met with repeated disaster.
  However, the Solistarim do claim the alliegance of the nation of Blackmoor and the surrounding marches, along with all the land down to the Burneal Forest.  This claim is loose and has not been enforced, but it is there nonetheless.

  The Solistarim are a bunch of lawful evil peoples.  They are totally unreasonable, devoid of compassion, and grant life no value as we would think of value.
  The Solistarim are a dictatorship-magocracy under their High Leader.  Mages, even powerful mages, are commonplace, and run almost every part of the government apparatus.  These mages observe a strict code of service and duty, and all look upon the High Leader as the One and True God.  All the other Solistarim either look upon the mages as semi-divine or divine messengers of the High Leader, or at the least they are scared witless by them.  The unbreakable unity of these mages, their unswearing and usually fanatical loyalty to the High Leader, and their absolute tyranny over everyone else, is what has allowed all these disparate and violent races to coexist.
  Indeed, the Solistarim are cosmopolitan.  Members of all the Solistari races freely mingle in their great fortress cities in the Godspires, in their Underdark cities, in the undersea cities, and in the swamp cities.  Individual attitudes, cultures, and preferences have been crushed under the heel of a omnipresent culture of service, loyalty, and tireless effort for the society.
  That is to say, for the average Solistari, the attitude is as follows:  you exist to serve and advancing the Nation.  You're life is dedicated to serving and advancing the Nation.  The greatest accomplishment in life is serving and advancing the Nation.  The highest of all ethics and morality is service to, and advancement of, the Nation.
  Families enforce this discipline upon their children immediately upon toddlerhood.  Somewhere between the age of 3 and 7, children male and female are taken for training (as in Sparta) in what the Solistarim determine them to be the most qualified for:  mage, cleric, fighter, etc.
  Afterwards, in their teens typically (equivalent) the men and women of the Solistarim are put to work in the armed forces, and after many tours of duty may be released for more domestic duties.  At this point, they can advance within the society, and those who achieve the most are often rewarded with great honor, nobility, ranks and title.  Some can even aspire to join the ranks of the semi-divine minions of the High Leader.  And go on to divine ascension and become his divine servants!  (Yes, it's a crock, but the Solistarim do not know this.)

  There is a remnant of local culture in each racial group that has not been crushed under the heel of conformity, but it is limited.  The law is absolute, covers almost every aspect of life, and is enforced rigorously.  
  There is zero tolerance for lawbreaking.  Minor lawbreaking invokes severe punishment and brainwashing in a reform center.  Major lawbreakers are killed.  Traitors (which covers a broad spectrum of offenses) are made grisly examples of, while the majority of the Solistarim revel, seeing in these traitors all that they hate and despise, moral and ethical bankruptsy.

  This is the case for the flannae humans, dark dwarves, dark gnomes, and kobolds, the founding races of the Solistarim.  The illithid have their own form of communal tyranny, but the High Leader long ago subverted the Elder Brain and with it the communal awareness of the illithid:  they now tow the Solistari line.
  The dragons are held in awe by the average Solistari, and the dragons live by a slightly different set of rules:  they have greater freedom.  Nonetheless, they are loyal to the High Leader and his agents, and they are loyal to those they have bonded with.

  The lizard men, sahuagin, and giants were induced to become allies of the Solistarim, and afterwards Solistari culture slowly poisoned it's way into their lives, until they were copying the Solistari way in most respects.  From there, it was a short hop for the High Leader to fully integrate them into mainstream Solistari society.

  The beholders and aboleth are all charmed (and watched closely.)  They adhere to the Solistari tenets due to magical compulsion.
  The undead, of course, do as they are told.  The lich lords who command them have their own pact with the High Leader.  Undead under the control of other Solistari wizards are fanatical loyalists like their masters and mistresses.

  The fire elementals, salamanders, and efreet are NOT a part of mainstream Solistari society, and generally keep apart.  After all, their homes are places most Solistari could not survive in for long anyways.  However, these races respect the High Leader and his minions (due to long and forceful diplomacy) and are reliable allies.

  The Gith mercenaries are semi-independent.  They are tolerated in Solistari cities because of their perceived use.  The Gith themselves look upon the Solistari as rather insane employers, but since the pay is good and the potential for pillage very great they don't complain.  And Gith society is itself highly militant and disciplined.

  The neogi are barely tolerated, and the ill will is returned in full.  These beings can never really be a true part of any society, being worse (if possible) than the illithid about supremacy.  However, they fear and respect the High Leader, he pays them fantastically well (not to mention he has secretly charmed most of them), and the potential for pillage and plunder is immense, so they work for him.  And they do make for excellent spies, scouts, and special forces.

  The devils work with the High Leader and his mages, and are held in fear and awe by the populace in general.  They alone are exempt from the rules, while mingling freely in Solistari society.  However, the devils seem to respect Solistari laws, if for no other reason than it advances their agenda.

  - - -

  The Solistarim aren't so much about racial hatred, William, as they are about their secure knowledge that the Flanaess is their backyard, but a bunch of squatters and loiterers are sitting on their property, and these worthless bums and rabble refused to leave when politely asked to do so.
  Since the rabble and the bums refused to move, they will just have to be dealt with in a more appropriate manner, and afterwards the mess they have made out of the Solistari backyard will be cleaned up, the land doled out to the rightful owners, and everything will then be roses and peaches.
  If that means killing the bums and the rabble, then so be it.  If the idiots won't be moved by reason, then they will have to be buried 6 feet under, and the world will be a better place for this.

  The Solistarim point the finger particularly at Iuz.  Here is a demon who is running amok and wrecking the yard, with his pathetic humanoid slaves and hordes of conjured demons (and by what right does he conjure demons into Greyspace, anyways?)
  The Solistarim point out that nobody has tried to deal with this demon idiot:  they were all too busy fighting each other, or plotting with said demon, to do anything about him.

  The Solistarim also point the finger at the Oeridians.  They can't run a kingdom (Aerdi), they can't impose order (witness the chaos of the Greyhawk Wars), they can't run an economy, and in the end they destroyed their own capital city and other major centers of population!  (witness Rauxes, other cities, and the whole realm of Medegia.)

  The Solistarim take a dim view of elves.  The elves think they rule the world, apparently, and the whole of the Flanaess should belong to them, and the humans be their slaves (witness the Lendore purging.)  They are too good for everyone else, refusing to cooperate with others even when it means the destruction of their own nations (witness the near destruction of neutral Celene at the hands of Turrosh Mak.)  
  And of course, their insane Underdark brethren, the dark elves, are worse.  They worship an insane Goddess, are insane themselves, and plan to bring their insanity and disorder to the whole of the surface world and even out into Greyspace.  Speaking of which, there is a bunch of those lunatic surface elves up there in Greyspace, with a fleet of spelljamming warships, menacing the whole planet of Oerth, and that has to be stopped too.
  Perhaps Greyspace would be better off without elves?

  The Solistarim are very unreasonable and hateful people.  Obviously.
  The Solistarim think of themselves as completely reasonable, ethical, moral, loyal, hard working, long suffering beings of reason and rational thought in a completely irrational and hostile world.

  - - -

  I'm not attempting to claim a Good Power, such as the Kevellond League, for the good reason that everyone is claiming Evil powers, and Evil seems to be the dominant force in play.
  And it's sorta hard to negotiate or reason with the evil guys, when you're a good guy and all you want is to hold what you have, keep peace and quiet, and ensure the safety of your people ... and all these maniacs are ready to descend on you from every side!

  Consider the Kevellond League.  It is threatened from the north by Iuz (and by the Solistarim if Serpenteye allows them into the IR), on the west by Ket and the other Baklunish, on the west and southwest by the drow, giants, and other horrors of the Crystalmists, on the south by the Scarlet Brotherhood, on the southeast by the Pomarj, and even in the east it's neighbor Greyhawk is an aggressive and militant power.  Of course, it is also threatened from below (from the Underdark), from above (from Wildspace), and from other planes (incursions from the Astral, for instance.)  And even within or near it's own borders, things like the Temple of Elemental Evil have happened.
  Anyone trying to run the Kevellond League is in for a difficult time!

  As for the Iron League, ad infinium.  They have Ahlissa to the north and northeast, the Scarlet Brotherhood threatening all their coasts, possible threats from Below and Above, and there is just a chance Ivid will break out of his prison in Rauxes and attempt revenge (on them, and everyone else he deems traitors to the Great Kingdom, which means just about everyone in the Flanaess.)  
  And Acererak is too close for comfort, over there in the Great Swamp.  (Let's just say, I wouldn't want to be living in Sunndi on Acererak's doorstep ...)

  Beset, and bankrupt, Nyrond is threatened to the northwest by Iuz, to the north by the Fists, to the northeast by the Theocracy of the Pale, on the east-northeast by the Bone March, on the east by North Aerdi (North Province), on the southeast by Almor (or rather, what Almor became), on the south by Ahlissa, on all it's coastlines by the Scarlet Brotherhood, from Above and Below, and by numerous enemies within - including a large number of formerly loyal barons who want to succeed from the country and create their own small kingdoms, and get away from the high taxation and enfeebled rule.
  Not to mention, once more, that if Ivid the Mad breaks out of his imprisonment in Rauxes, Nyrond is just about at the top of his Blacklist of Places to Annihilate.  (Heh, talk about a challenge to play!)

  Speaking of which, nobody has claimed Ivid and Rauxes.  Now, they could, and that would be an interesting challenge ...


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 29, 2004)

*Renewal of drow claim*

I really am more of a mind to claim the drow, in their scattered enclaves, with Eclavdra as their queen.

  Count me as claiming the drow (and being wishy-washy), Serpenteye.

  If I am given the drow, I need to know where their major enclaves are, that I control.

  (sighs)

  I suppose someone else could run the Solistarim, if Serpenteye allows them into the IR.  Ah me ... I would like to run my dark creation, but the drow are more tempting.  Who can resist Eclavdra?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 29, 2004)

(With gratitude to William and Maudlin)

  Here is a link that if you follow, you can bring up closeup maps of various parts of the Flanaess, or a closeup of the entire Flanaess.  Recommended:

http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/

  Here is the overview map of the Flanaess, with many of the names:

http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/completeflanaess.gif

  Here is a large-scale map of the Flanaess and adjacent areas.  No names are on this map:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/gridgeo.gif

  Here is an even larger scale map that shows the whole continent of Oerik, with the Flanaess and Hempmonaland at the eastern end.  The names of many off-Flanaess countries are on this map.

http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif

  Here's another large scale map:

http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/oerthlarge.gif

  Here are map links for Greyhawk from William's Map and Other Campaign Resources Post (the one with the sticky) at the top of the Talking the Talk messageboard.  (thumbs up, William!    )

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/wogmaps.html
Greyhawk Maps: http://www.thewatchman.de/spidersweb/oerik.htm
Oerth and Greyhawk maps: http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/Campaigns/GreyhawkMaps/
Oerth map: http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif
Oerik Continent: http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/...p/supermap.html
World of Greyhawk Map: http://www.arrantdestiny.com/maps.htm
Greyhawk Maps: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/wogmaps.html
(One shows latitude.)
Living Greyhawk Maps: http://ca.geocities.com/kanisl/
World of Greyhawk Maps: http://talmeta.net/maps/wog.htm

  I would recommend you peruse that thread.  There's a lot of good stuff in there, and William has done an excellent job of sorting it out.

  - - -

  - - -

  - - -

  Here is one of Maudlin's (cheers, Maudlin!  ) map from the 3rd IR.  It is the only map of his I can still access, unfortunately:

http://users.pandora.be/maudlin/Greyhawk.jpg

  From this, you can see a couple of things:

  1:  A map is vital for the IR.  Serpenteye is right on that.  And I do not know how to create maps at all, much less duplicate what Maudlin did.

  2:  Maudlin's work was (and is) beautiful, as you can see.  The 3rd IR wouldn't have been half of what it was without him.  But I cannot contact Maudlin.  I haven't heard from him in years.  And I don't know anyone who can duplicate what Maudlin did.

  3:  The map shows changes in the geography of the Flanaess.  That's because we seriously messed up the geography of the Flanaess.  And I'm sure we could have messed it up a lot more, given a bit more time.

  4:  We added a LOT of powers to the Flanaess that did not previously exist.  In addition, countries off-map are referred to by arrows on the fringes of the map.  And note the circle areas that depict Underdark and underwater nations.  (Mountains, forests and rivers are on the map, but shaded according to whoever held them.)

  5:  It's up to Serpenteye whether any of those new nations are used.  For example:  the Deepwater League (merfolk/triton nation), the Solistarim, Aerlindre (sky elven nation), Kinemeet (one of the Bandit Cities turned into a nation, along with Kor, Redhand, Artonsay, Riftcrag, and Fellands), Chauntosbergen (good aligned dwarven nation), Delrune (high elven nation), Heisenbaudos (frost giant nation), Usurbaudos (hill giant nation), Grannmont (storm giant/aarocroka nation), the Spirit Empire of Garnak (a powerful baklunish nation with powerful nature and good undead allies), Calrune (a centaur nation ), Varnaith (off-map equatorial elven empire), the Quaggoth Tribal Confederation of the Burneal Forest, and others.  
  A few of the new nations were solely the creation of the players.  For example:  The Hive Cluster (run by Forsaken One) is one of these.

  6:  As you can see from the map - and things had GREATLY sorted themselves out by the time this particular map was made!!! - the powers of the IR were all jumbled together in a confusing welter.  Everyone was right there in everyone else's face, far far too close for comfort.  Some players opted for one big territory for their protection.  Some opted for many small enclaves, so if one was destroyed the others survived.  And some weren't on the map at all:  the Black Brotherhood being a notable case (nothing like out of sight, out of mind.)
  Some players were content with what they had, and just watched events.  Some (like William) negotiated furiously and made alliances, creating the good aligned Alliance of Oerth.  Some played off the various sides against each other (let's you and him fight.  Heh, that was you, Gnomeworks.)  One attempted to create a kind of Dark Byzantium, forsaking combat but keeping force ready (cheers to you, John Brown)  Some went ballistic from the word Go (hey there, Melkor!)  And some connived and schemed and plotted, and threatened, and attacked, then plotted some more (look at how BIG Serpenteye and Mr. Draco's Empire of Aerdi - it became the nasty Union of Oerth - got!)  And two (Forrester, Anabstercorian) threatened Oerth from Wildspace as well as from the ground.  (My salutes to all in the 3rd IR!    )
  And that was before things got truly wild (don't ask, unless you have a very strong stomach.  You'll find out soon enough, if Serpenteye takes this IR anywhere close to what happened in the 3rd IR.  )


----------



## The Forsaken One (Nov 29, 2004)

If I get the chance I'm not pulling punches this time. This time I will blow everything to smithereens muhahahahaa! 

The Peninsula east of the Pearl Sea. I'll claim that as a Huge forest / Jungle and as an ancient troll kingdom/nation. Perhaps Sahuagin from the Pearl Sea as allies if the Trolls won't suffice.

And as you all can see clearly now, Edena is impossible to replace  But we'll have to may do 

[EDIT: According to the worldview from outer space, the Peninsula is called Hepmondland/EDIT]


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 29, 2004)

Again, here is Maudlin's last map from the 3rd IR, and the only one I can still link to.  It's a beautiful map, and it shows how ABSOLUTELY VITAL IT IS that we have such a working map for Serpenteye's IR!

http://users.pandora.be/maudlin/Greyhawk.jpg

  I cannot stress enough how valuable and helpful this map was, or how much I appreciated Maudlin's help in the 3rd IR.

  Edena_of_Neith


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 29, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I suppose someone else could run the Solistarim, if Serpenteye allows them into the IR.  Ah me ... I would like to run my dark creation, but the drow are more tempting.  Who can resist Eclavdra?




Noone. Even _Us_. 
She's my favourite elven ambassador.  
And You forgot one thing about Iuz, who I claimed and try to fold into character, Iuz is a god. Not merely a demon. And he was human before, half-fiend, but human. No demon is as nasty as humans.  

So if Serpenteye would, he dare to not   , allow You to run Drow elves. What would You say of little alliance against illithids and other subterran nasties ? Of course my fold is open for new faithful if You would like to convert.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 29, 2004)

*To Rikandur*

If Serpenteye allows me to play the drow ...

  Eclavdra has this to say, and it is heard publicly through various means:

  Anyone who doesn't acknowledge the might and glory of the Wise One, Iuz, should carefully consider their own reality.
  The drow have had a long and fruitful history in their friendship with the Wise One.  The drow have benefited enormously from the wisdom and doings of the Wise One, and many wise drow have sacrificed all for him, knowing his way was best.
  The drow wonder what the Wise One intends, now that the Crystal Sphere of Greyspace is closed off and none now remain in the world who can stand against his Magnificence?
  As for the illithid, isn't it possible that they, with their communal intellect and understanding which the drow have long appreciated, might not choose to worship the Wise One?
  Perhaps the Wise One should grant his grace to the all the small beings of the Underdark, and give them a chance to behold his radiance and kneel before him.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 29, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> If Serpenteye allows me to play the drow ...
> 
> Eclavdra has this to say, and it is heard publicly through various means:
> 
> ...




(OOC: Thou art ... beautiful, Edena. Sob, sob ... Pity that Iuz, being a paranoical maniac, might not understand beauty of Eclavdra's statements.   )

"Wery well then, since surface might only benefit from high culture, devolped by Drow magnificient intelligence during their long history of fruitious  existence, blessed by higer understanding of ...

*Iuz kicks his current advisor, terrorised devil clinked with his slave chains and standed straighter quietly reading papers with prepared speech. His quasit overseer smirked and branded devil's back with poker soaked in water. Fiend gritted it's teeth when burning marks displayed themselves where little demon branded him.*

.. higer principles of life. We, God-Emperor, Lord of Pain, Master of Skulls, Iuz the Old, Wise One,, Enlightend One are proclaiming ours eternal friendship with Drow nation in the person of Eclavdra, Supreme Matriarch of Drow." 

Nice writing ... You _may_ live longer, devil ... isn't it beautiful to be useful ? And now ... Prepare my Legions ! We are going to the war !

*Roar of the gathered orcs, demons, and other troops almost toppled heavens.*


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## Creamsteak (Nov 29, 2004)

If I run the illithids, I will attempt to claim a number of other aberrations, including the beholders and any aberrent undead which can be controlled suitably... but remember, the voidmind armies are not _evil_. They are certainly not _good_, but they are not by definition evil...

*Simply hungry.*

And what is to say that the illithids wouldn't serve alongside the powers of good? What little difference does it make to the lords of the illithids whom they would enslave? Why, only the delicate differences in the taste of the cerebral fluids and _delicious, soft, and nutricious_ brains. Troll brains, if they truly do regenerate like the rest of the troll, seem like an excellent and enduring foodstuff, do they not? Perhaps they are a bit grimier, and they certainly taste like phosphoric acid, human vomit, and sweat, but it happens to be an acquired taste. With a little bit of salt, who would notice? Well... perhaps our pet slug-monsters would notice... they don't seem to like salt. But hey, what good is a slug monster if you can't melt it down for butter?

Mmmmm...


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## Creamsteak (Nov 29, 2004)

Serpenteye, where is your factions list?



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> And Serpenteye ... Am I correct that ther is one ugly forest in the middle of my land, wich is out of my grasp ? Fellreev forest ? And where is Stonehold ? I couldn't find it on the map.  Closest thing to Stonehold in my reach is Hold of Stonefist ... are they one and the same ?




In the 3rd IR, Iuz found that forest to be one of his largest threats. Beware what sleeps...


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 29, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, where is your factions list?
> 
> In the 3rd IR, Iuz found that forest to be one of his largest threats. Beware what sleeps...




Yes, enemies on all corners ... I think that this particular fores nedds solid de-partisation, so my chief advisors claim that deforestation should give similiar result. What ot do with all this wood ?   

Echem, did illithidi consider opening trade routes ? I have a lot of troublesome goblins, who don't need brains anyway. I will think for them.  

And faction list, on the page 2 or 3. If I remeber correctly.


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## Anabstercorian (Nov 29, 2004)

Anabstercorian rustles himself from a morbid slumber.  Then, he goes back to bed.

"Heck, enough of Anabstercorian.  He's long since retired, and if he's involved in this it's only as a peripheral puppet master.  Can I play The Cult of Tharizdun?  We need a Melkor-esque."

Also, I'm in college now, so I have slightly less time available for play.  Can we assume there will be more strict controls on the flow of time in game?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 29, 2004)

I'm holding off on roleplaying further because Serpenteye has not given me permission to play the drow yet, and because other players are still joining and selecting powers (and thus I don't yet know what I'm dealing with yet.)  And of course, none of us know what our starting PLs are, so I don't know how powerful any of you are, and thus how dangerous any of you are. 
  If Serpenteye lets me play the drow, could you (Serpenteye) please tell me where my Underdark Drow Enclaves are, and what the starting PL is of each?  Yeah, I know that's a ways off yet, but when the IR starts obviously I'll need to know the information.
  Nothing like creating more work for Serpenteye (my sympathies to you, Serpenteye:  I've been in your shoes!!)

  We definitely will need that player roster ... after all the players have joined.
  But we need a map, and a mapmaker, more.  I'd do it, if I could.  I would.  But Macintoshes aren't known for their compatibility with the Wintel World, and I'm happy when this old computer just works, period.  I cannot make the maps.
   I tried to help by putting map links to the standard setting up (they are at the top of this page) and bringing over William's and Maudlin's map links.  It wasn't much, but it was better than nothing.  I hope so, at least.

  Anabstercorian, the idea of you playing the Cult of Tharizdun is utterly fascinating and terrifying.  Which is to say, my old friend, that you're the perfect guy for the job!  
  Now, I must wonder when someone is going to claim Zagyg the Mad Mage/Demigod?  

  - - -

  - - -

  - - -

  Please note that I have no working e-mail address.  I do not currently have access to Private Messaging on ENWorld.  I use PMing on Nothingland, though.
  If you wish to PM me, go to Nothingland (www.nothingland.com) and PM me there.  My SN there is the same as it is here:  Edena_of_Neith.

  Or, perhaps, there is another way for us to communicate?  Back in the 3rd IR, the players had a private (and secret, for a long time) message board in which they talked.  Perhaps we could establish such a thing here, with Serpenteye's blessings?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 30, 2004)

Where did everybody go?


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## Knight Otu (Nov 30, 2004)

Waiting for Serpenteye, I presume.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 30, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Where did everybody go?




Like Knight Otu stated, we are all waiting for Serpenteye ... Me too couldn't do much with my Empire, even not knowing any changes that occured during the 20 year period after the Greyhawk Wars. I could only imagine that Eclavdra were very busy with conquesting all those drow cities, killing all those upstart mathrons, and thwarting off all those assasination attempts. I would expect that she get more than her 23 lvl from "ELH". Ligh hand with extra 10 levels for her, maybe more. Chmm ... from the other side, then she would became a threat to Iuz ... 

I could imagine that Iuz was busy enough with internal problems, cleaning everything up cost many lives and precious time, as well as subjugating Stonefist and Tenh wholly. I guess that from the Horned Society my forces were kicked out. Pity, I'm sure that thoe responsilbe for this failure scream still.


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## Creamsteak (Nov 30, 2004)

Yep, I've got nothing much to say until I'm sure what I'm going to be playing. Once that's settled...


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## Guilt Puppy (Nov 30, 2004)

Waiting on serp as well, and working on a map by and by.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 30, 2004)

Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> Waiting on serp as well, and working on a map by and by.




*Iuz laughs heartily, evil mirth filling the air. Dread filled the hearts of gathered servitors, who are sure that heads will fell.*

Nice map Guilt Puppy ... You even marked my empire in progress.     

(OOC: Anyone suposses what might caused Serpenteye's silence ? I didn't found him in Iuz's dungeons.  )


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## devilish (Nov 30, 2004)

We sits and we waits.

*and we hopes that SerpentEye is well ... but do this 
when no one is looking.


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## William Ronald (Nov 30, 2004)

*I'm here to help*

I wonder if Serpenteye is still sick. Hopefully, he is feeling better.  

Edena, thanks for the overview of the Solistarrim and the compliments!

I do agree there is a need for a factions list.  I would like Serpenteye to answer a few questions as to how much time I should expect to devote to an IR, as I would like to play IF I can also do what else I need to do.  

As this is set 20 years after the current Greyhawk era of 594 Common Year, I imagine some nations have stabilized.  I am tempted to take Nyrond, the Urnst States, the Theocracy of the Pale, and the Iron League.  Or the Baklunish states perhaps.

I think Serpenteye needs to explain what benefits the Good and Neutral powers might have in this IR.  So far, I suspect that most of those here believe that the evil factions will have an upper hand.  So, how will balance be maintained.  (In the 3rd IR, everyone had a chance to shine. The same should be true not just for online games, but every game.  At least I think so.)

Perhaps the person playing the City of Greyhawk should claim Zagyg, the former mayor of Greyhawk who had such demigods as Iuz and Wastri trapped in his castle ruins.  Also, a neutral power might want to claim Kelanen the prince of Swords, while good powers might want to claim the quasi-deities Murlynd (who seems to hail from the Old West, or so his six-shooters hint), Keoghtom (probably associated with Keoland), and Heward (of the Mystical Organ fame, appropriate to anyone who likes bards.)

The Forsaken One, I do not see a Pearl Sea on the map of the Flanaess from the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer.  You mentioned jungles, and there is the Amedio Jungle west of the Azure Sea -- near the Hold of the Sea Princes -- and the jungles of Northern Hepmonaland.  The latter are controlled by the Scarlet Brotherhood.  (If anyone can find it, Sean K. Reynold's The Scarlet Brotherhood supplement from 2nd Edition was a great book about a creepy and racist power.  The Scarlet Brotherhood, which champions Suel supremacy, is a great villain and major player in the World of Greyhawk.)

Everyone, I suspect Serpenteye will need more time to organize this than he planned.  So, let's try to get a few more people here.  Also, if anyone wants to contact me, e-mail me at williamwronald@aol.com. I will try to help out with any questions until Serpenteye gets back.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 30, 2004)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> I do agree there is a need for a factions list.  I would like Serpenteye to answer a few questions as to how much time I should expect to devote to an IR, as I would like to play IF I can also do what else I need to do.




Join, join ! Serpenteye was claiming that he need about 20 players. And that IR pace will be slower than 3rd's. 



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> As this is set 20 years after the current Greyhawk era of 594 Common Year, I imagine some nations have stabilized.  I am tempted to take Nyrond, the Urnst States, the Theocracy of the Pale, and the Iron League.  Or the Baklunish states perhaps.




Don't take Theocracy ... Paxus Asclepius and I are intending to invade the place ... raze it to the ground, take captives and animate slain as reinforcenment for my army. Slaves are good currency ...  



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I think Serpenteye needs to explain what benefits the Good and Neutral powers might have in this IR.  So far, I suspect that most of those here believe that the evil factions will have an upper hand.  So, how will balance be maintained.  (In the 3rd IR, everyone had a chance to shine. The same should be true not just for online games, but every game.  At least I think so.)




Reliablity, perchaps ? Trustworthiness, courage ? Bwa, Ha, Ha ! Iuz can manage as much and more with his reasonable allies, without such mindless rabble ! And why I took evil faction ? For fun, my friend.  



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> Perhaps the person playing the City of Greyhawk should claim Zagyg, the former mayor of Greyhawk who had such demigods as Iuz and Wastri trapped in his castle ruins.  Also, a neutral power might want to claim Kelanen the prince of Swords, while good powers might want to claim the quasi-deities Murlynd (who seems to hail from the Old West, or so his six-shooters hint), Keoghtom (probably associated with Keoland), and Heward (of the Mystical Organ fame, appropriate to anyone who likes bards.)




Iuz became deity in Zagyg's dungeons ! he entered as powerful cambion, emerged as invicible power. With what they were feeding him there ?! 
_Murlynd ... Keoghtom ... Heward ...   _ Wastri ? Who is Wastri ?!?   



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> The Forsaken One, I do not see a Pearl Sea on the map of the Flanaess from the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer.  You mentioned jungles, and there is the Amedio Jungle west of the Azure Sea -- near the Hold of the Sea Princes -- and the jungles of Northern Hepmonaland.  The latter are controlled by the Scarlet Brotherhood.  (If anyone can find it, Sean K. Reynold's The Scarlet Brotherhood supplement from 2nd Edition was a great book about a creepy and racist power.  The Scarlet Brotherhood, which champions Suel supremacy, is a great villain and major player in the World of Greyhawk.)




I wonder if Iuz's momma is of Suel orgin ? But yes, Scarlet Brotherhood might be dangerous "ally". Or bitter enemy. Chmm ... So much to kill, and so small amount of time.   



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> Everyone, I suspect Serpenteye will need more time to organize this than he planned.  So, let's try to get a few more people here.  Also, if anyone wants to contact me, e-mail me at williamwronald@aol.com. I will try to help out with any questions until Serpenteye gets back.




Chmm, If You do offer Your head on the plate.   
Where can I found some more about Iuz, his mom, his political stance and about his lands at the end of Greyhawk Wars ? And if it is possible his hitlist, with explaination how particular soul wronged him.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 30, 2004)

Hey there, all.  

  Serpenteye, if you are indeed sick, my best wishes for a speedy recovery, and a big welcome back when you return and can read this.  

  Cheers, Guilt Puppy!  I've bookmarked that map.  Looks REALLY good.

  I believe the Pearl Sea is the sea around or just to the east of Nippon, on the really large scale maps.

  - - -

  William, remember the 1950s War of the Worlds film?  The narrator in that film said:  'Minds cool and vast and unsympathetic looked down upon our world with envious eyes.  It did not occur to mankind that a swift fate might be hanging over him.'

  In our campaign, the Solistarim were much like the Martians:  the analogy does fit.  It wasn't racial hatred.  Just cold, calculated, and pitiless greed.
  The Solistarim looked down upon the rich, green Flanaess from their cold and forbidding mountains and Underdark caves with envious eyes.  They looked upon the men, elves, dwarves, and others who populated that wealthy, warm, lush world south of them, and they made up their minds very quickly as to what was to be done with them.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 1, 2004)

Those who know me well... well... they can perhaps anticipate my actions. The rest of you, bah! You will find out!


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 1, 2004)

(Again, if Serpenteye allows me to play the drow this is relevant, and if not it's not relevant)

  Eclavdra makes a comment which is forwarded expeditiously to the illithid, and of course is heard openly by Iuz:

  We know that the illithid detest the sun, would see the sun extinguished, and with their communal intellect work toward that end.
  We the drow have historically chosen the enclosing granite strength of the Oerth over the lightscalded World Above.
  Iuz the Magnificient and Omnipotent, in His endless and eternal wisdom, has ever whelmed and crushed His foes with darkness.  And I might ask:  what being that looks to the sunlight, could ever hope to understand and befriend the darkness?
  In our common wisdom and intellect, our profound understandings, and always instructed and guided by Iuz the All Knowing, we transcend all who must look into the blinding glare of sunlight for their guidance.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Dec 1, 2004)

This plotting of those under his domains slightly concerns the Wolf God.  Not _worries_ him, of course; that would be unthinkable.  Still, perhaps it might be wise were he to extend an offer of alliance to the drow and illithids who seek to conspire with his ally Iuz.  He can offer mundane strength unparalleled to these dark-dwellers, in return for assistance sorcerous, divine, and psionic.  His people need not fear the dark; the fires of the earth can, if properly harnessed, provide the warmth needed to grow food, as they already provide the fires for his forges.


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## James Heard (Dec 1, 2004)

If the Fraternity of the Brazen Blade mentioned in the LGG is any coin in that sort of favor I wouldn't mind Kelanen on the side of the Sea Princes if I'm allowed to run them. If I can't of course, then I suggest that his demigodhood run off and dunk his head in a bucket water repeatedly until he shakes off that horrible notion....After 20 years though, I'd hope that the Sea Princes had stabilized and rebuilt finally because otherwise I think running the Princes is going to need an escape route from itself more than anything else. Arg, me head.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 1, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (Again, if Serpenteye allows me to play the drow this is relevant, and if not it's not relevant)
> 
> Eclavdra makes a comment which is forwarded expeditiously to the illithid, and of course is heard openly by Iuz:
> 
> ...



 True, the light is not my friend. I hear that it bothers Ted and Amy in accounting too. I'll go with your plan, for now. But I'll wait till I see action before you can buy my loyalty. Plus, it would be nice to once and for all, excommunicate that stupid Pelor guy.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 1, 2004)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> I think Serpenteye needs to explain what benefits the Good and Neutral powers might have in this IR.  So far, I suspect that most of those here believe that the evil factions will have an upper hand.  So, how will balance be maintained.  (In the 3rd IR, everyone had a chance to shine. The same should be true not just for online games, but every game.  At least I think so.)




I was thinking much this myself- Edena had a good point when she said it will be rough playing good or neutral territories with all this evil about (although this is something of a self fufilling prophecy- if more people played good, this wouldn't be a problem, but since everyone's playing evil and Edena's logic holds true, they won't).  Not all of her assumptions hold true about good and neutral powers, though; I'm pretty sure the Church of Tritherion will be an agressively pragmatical group, willing to ally with the lesser of two evils against the greater.  Iuz, the mad demigod, is pretty damn great; The Sherperds in Darkness is small patatoes by comparison.

Also of note is the fact that it the evil seems to be allying with itself almost in totallity (the Dragon with Iuz with the Drow with the Pomarj), thus creating a monolithicly evil alliance right off the bat.  Eek.    In campaigns, generally speaking, such alliances dissolve into infighting or don't happen at all for various reasons (the Drow are racial supremacists, the Orcs are rash and violent, Iuz is meglomaniacal), but the fact we can have impartial and rational "players" at the head of each group means that this won't be happening until someone thinks they can benefit, which is unlikely to happen as long as there's good and neutral territory to be raped, pillaged and burned.  Which, in totallity, is something of a bummer for those who aren't playing part of this massively evil alliance.

My initial thought, upon reading of the Sollistarim, was "OK, cool idea, but we already _have_ half a dozen massively powerful evil factions."  But on second thought, the fact that they are so xenophobic that they are likely to work against, say, Iuz and the rest, makes them seem like a _balancing factor._


----------



## Creamsteak (Dec 1, 2004)

Have you read the IR threads from the 3rd IR? There are a good 30 lessons to learn in there about "allies." I'd start at turn 1.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 1, 2004)

> Eluvan:
> "Greyhawk illuminatus" -Secret organization with Infiltrator trait, based in Greyhawk.
> 
> Knight Otu:
> ...




This was the list as it was quite some time ago.  I'm gonna run around the thread and see what other info (including contact info) I can find.


----------



## Creamsteak (Dec 1, 2004)

If Serpenteye gives me permission to use these conventions, this is how I would break down my starting powers:

3/9 Beholder Dominions. The Beholder Dominions that I have not been able to coax my way are "The First Eye" (the rulers), "The Final Forge" (the perfecters), "The Eternal Vigil" (the watchers), "The Revelations" (the seers), "The Enigma" (the strange), and "The Watching Wheel" (the wonderers). 

Since the first eye and the eternal vigil are the archnemisis of the Poisoned Eye (the largest and most military), and the Revelations and the Final Forge are not likely to be drafted for war, I've selected the three dominions that would be the most fitting for an alliance with the mind-flayers. I would be actively persuing the servitude of the Enigma and the Watching Wheel.

6/6 Overminds. I have gained control of all 6 psionic disciplines within the Illithids highest stratas of society.

Servitors, Aberrations and Undead recruited: Various psionic undead, mindless servitors, voidminds, 

Creamsteak:
Yugthulgon (Master of the Staff of Ilsensine), The Dominion of the Poisoned Eye (Beholders), The Dominion of Flesh Reborn (Beholders), The Dominion of the Consuming Eye (Beholders), The Collective Overminds (Illithids), The Voidminds, various Psionic Undead, the cults associated with the above, and other servitors. Based in the Deep Underdark.


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## Guilt Puppy (Dec 1, 2004)

Thomas: To make your life easier, I have the Scarlet Brotherhood (as represented by the demo map... Iuz is in blue, apparently), and my email address is *puppy* _that one symbol_ *rowf* _that punctuation mark_ *net*. (Fresh account, trying to keep it out of the hands of spam demons as long as possible -- if you don't mind, I'd rather not have it saved in any address books, or redistributed in spiderable form.)


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 1, 2004)

New list, with new players and contact info updated:

[sblock]Eluvan:
"Sheperds in Darkness" -Secret organization with Infiltrator trait, based in Greyhawk.

Knight Otu (olifram[at]gmx[dot]de):
Cult of Ashardalon. The Great Kingdom: Northern Aerdy, United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Almor, Rel Astra, the Sea Barons.

Xael:
Circle of Eight, Highfolk, Vesve Forest and The Yatil Monutains.

Demon Atheist:
The Shadow Guild -Infiltrator trait.

Paxus Asclepius (joejay1066[at]yahoo[dot]com):
The Pomarj, Crystalmists, Jotens, Hellfurnaces, Griff Mountains, Raker Mountains, and the Dreadwoods.

Devilish:
Valley of the Mage, Acererak and the Tomb of Horrors, The Cold Marches and Blackmoor. 

Rikandur Azebol:
Iuz: Demigod. Empire of Iuz: Stonehold, The Empire of Iuz, Tenh, The Bandit Kingdoms. 

Thomas Hobbes:
The Church of Tritherion, Celene, Lendarl Islands

Forsaken One:
Troll/Sanguhuin Druocracy (at either Troll Fens, Land of Black Ice, and Gulf of Re or Hepmonland)

Venus:
Orchreich, Upper Kahnate, Lower Kahnate

Edena_of_Neith (contact via PM as detailed here):
Drow

Guilt_Puppy (puppy[at]rowf[dot]com; privacy concerns stated here):
Scarlet Brotherhood

James Head:
Sea Princes

Creamsteak:
Illithids, Beholders in the Deep Underdark (detailed here)
[/sblock]

Tell me if'n I missed anything or anyone, and please- add your contact info for illicit missives!

No, scratch that, it sounds like I'm going to send you porn.  Ahem.  _Secret messages._


----------



## Creamsteak (Dec 1, 2004)

creamsteak at hotmail


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## James Heard (Dec 1, 2004)

dunlandor at earthlink dot net, and it's Heard    - as in I heard it through the grapevine. None of you will ever be able to stalk me if you can't even spell my last name...


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## Rikandur Azebol (Dec 1, 2004)

Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> New list, with new players and contact info updated:
> 
> Rikandur Azebol: Guldan[at]wp[dot]pl
> Iuz: Demigod. Empire of Iuz: Stonehold, The Empire of Iuz, Tenh, The Bandit Kingdoms.
> ...




Don't try to do that.   And I ask to not mess with my @mail, just like Guilt Puppy asked about his.   

And, dear Puppy, You are seriously mistaken red terrain is Iuz's. Why ? Because he spilled so much blood on it, of course. Places where blue blood of the Suel is spilled You marked also.   

(OOC: Here are changes, thanks for everything.  )


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 1, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Don't try to do that.   And I ask to not mess with my @mail, just like Guilt Puppy asked about his.




I'll edit the new stuff in.  You should edit the post you just made to the [at] [dot] format, though, if you're worried about spam.  Also, I think you may have posted your e-mail earlier in similar format....

Fresh new list:

[sblock]
Eluvan:
"Sheperds in Darkness" -Secret organization with Infiltrator trait, based in Greyhawk.

Knight Otu (olifram[at]gmx[dot]de):
Cult of Ashardalon. The Great Kingdom: Northern Aerdy, United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Almor, Rel Astra, the Sea Barons.

Xael:
Circle of Eight, Highfolk, Vesve Forest and The Yatil Monutains.

Demon Atheist:
The Shadow Guild -Infiltrator trait.

Paxus Asclepius (joejay1066[at]yahoo[dot]com):
The Pomarj, Crystalmists, Jotens, Hellfurnaces, Griff Mountains, Raker Mountains, and the Dreadwoods.

Devilish:
Valley of the Mage, Acererak and the Tomb of Horrors, The Cold Marches and Blackmoor. 

Rikandur Azebol (Guldan[at]wp[dot]pl,  privacy concerns stated here):
Iuz: Demigod. Empire of Iuz: Stonehold, The Empire of Iuz, Tenh, The Bandit Kingdoms. 

Thomas Hobbes (ternashandrik[at]yahoo[dot]com):
The Church of Tritherion, Celene, Lendarl Islands

Forsaken One:
Troll/Sanguhuin Druocracy (at either Troll Fens, Land of Black Ice, and Gulf of Re or Hepmonland)

Venus:
Orchreich, Upper Kahnate, Lower Kahnate

Edena_of_Neith (contact via PM as detailed here):
Drow

Guilt_Puppy (puppy[at]rowf[dot]com; privacy concerns stated here):
Scarlet Brotherhood

James Heard (dunlandor[at]earthlink[dot]net):
Sea Princes

Creamsteak (creamsteak[at]hotmail[dot]com):
Illithids, Beholders in the Deep Underdark (detailed here)
[/sblock]


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 1, 2004)

The Solistarim, in our campaign, never allied with anyone else.
  The Solistarim did not even ally with other monstrous or humanoid or human races who had factions represented within their own society.  That is, they never allied with other illithid, other kobolds, other lizard men, other sahuagin, other grey dwarves, other flannae humans (to Perrenland's great loss), other dragons, etc.  
  Of course, though, if Serpenteye allows the Solistarim, and someone (not me) plays them, that person can do as he or she pleases, and the situation for the Kevellond League could worsen further.  Or, the Solistarim could put a serious crimp in Iuz's plans.  Or anything else:  the Solistarim are a wild card.

  That map ( http://www.rowf.net/ir/demo.gif )  is hilariously great and just what we need.  When every faction is represented, it's going to be a regular mosaic of color.  Image a RISK game based on that map!  

  - - -

  (again, if allowed to play the drow)

  Eclavdra comments, and again her comment is made known:

  Have not the mighty peoples of the Crystalmists, Hellfurnaces, and other mountains not demonstrated time and again their valor and supremacy over the lowlanders?
  Did not the tall warriors of the Pomarj rout the dwarves in their holes, and send the little elfies skipping away like grasshoppers?
  Forged in the blizzards, as hard as the granite rock, as strong as the mountain winds, our ancient allies Above transcend those who must huddle in the little warm valleys, trembling at winter's wrath.
  The Wolf is on the hunt.  His nose is sure, His eyes keen, His teeth are bared, ready to savage the foe.  Once He picks up the scent, there is no escape for the quarry.  For the rabbit, only splinters of bone shall remain.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 1, 2004)

The first "m" in the e-mail address should be a "n."


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 1, 2004)

Remember that I do not currently have an e-mail address.
  PM me at nothingland and I'll answer any queries you have.


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## devilish (Dec 1, 2004)

devilishd[at]yahoo[dot]com


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## Xael (Dec 1, 2004)

My email is: Xael_Xorlarrin[at]hotmail[dot]com


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## Rikandur Azebol (Dec 1, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (Again, if Serpenteye allows me to play the drow this is relevant, and if not it's not relevant)
> 
> Eclavdra makes a comment which is forwarded expeditiously to the illithid, and of course is heard openly by Iuz:
> 
> ...




*Iuz sent _Sendings_ to all his allies feeling suddenly creative. *

Iuz, in his wisdom didn't destroyed the light. Eternal foe of the dark, and false promise for those blinded with it's glitter. Didn't earth itself grow plants in tries to devour it ? Without light, the creatures bewitched by it would open their eyes ... and who gives free advantage to enemy ? Let the fools grow fat in their blindness. That wich didn't kill You, only make You stronger.

Iuz has spoken.

*To Acererak, speech prepared by one of the liches in the service of Iuz.*

Wise and Mighty Archlich, ascendant in his arcane wisdom hig above dim witted fools, like Vecna who's biggest pretension is godhead. Those devoted to their Art, like thou, know that diverting their attention weakens their resolve. After burning down pretensional Theocracy, wich is thorn in my side ... ten thousands slaves will came to place of Your choosing. As a boon, to strengthen our friendship and evidence my honesty.

*To Wolf God of Goblinkind and Giantkind*

My son.

(OOC: This is the only way that Iuz may tolerate another deity, true or ascending. At least from my point of view.  )

Upstarts from Theocracy, weak and soft, will quail like rabbits under our shadows ! Their children will be our slaves, their so called men will die horrible deaths to please us, their women will be ours. Their riches ... rightfully ours, are too. Each city will belong to one who's armies conquer it. If some of them, by accident, will be besieged by forces of both of us ... Plunder will belong wholly to the Gods. And city will be razed to the ground as a mark of friendship. 

Iuz has spoken.

*To Eclavdra, demonic god was unusually nice. Prospect of torment, perhaps ...* 

Supreme Matriarch ... I can see that thorn in Your side, trechearous fools who rejected their proud heritage for delusions of weakling, bah, goddes. Will You agree with me that such nonsense is irritiating at best ?! In Our infinite generosity we will make of these fools example, that will teach them the error of their ways ... and any Drow defying You is spitting in Our face. Is there any one among Your brave herd, who is willing to prove hi's or her's loyalty to Your cause ? Brave hero only should find their nest, whenever they had cowardly hide themselves, wich no true Drow would ever do. Don't You think that such little test may be entertaining ?

Go with my blessings Supreme Matriarch. May Your enemies cry in fear.

(OOC: Elistaree might lose some worshippers here ...  And any remaining "independent" Drow will learn what happens to those who defy Valsharess Eclavdra.  )

*To everybody else.*

Our country, blessed with my divine attention is open for trade from now. Remeber the laws: You have right to defend Yourself. What You kill is Your. Iuz's will that is.


----------



## Guilt Puppy (Dec 1, 2004)

Correction for email list: It's net, not com.


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## Gurdjieff (Dec 1, 2004)

Contactinfo for me; mabisschops[at]hotmail.com


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 2, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Remember that I do not currently have an e-mail address.
> PM me at nothingland and I'll answer any queries you have.




I think I put a link next to your name to the post that explains that...



> That map ( http://www.rowf.net/ir/demo.gif ) is hilariously great and just what we need. When every faction is represented, it's going to be a regular mosaic of color. Image a RISK game based on that map!




Or Diplomacy.  Anyone ever play Diplomacy?

New list:

[sblock]
Eluvan:
"Sheperds in Darkness" -Secret organization with Infiltrator trait, based in Greyhawk.

Knight Otu (olifran[at]gmx[dot]de):
Cult of Ashardalon. The Great Kingdom: Northern Aerdy, United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Almor, Rel Astra, the Sea Barons.

Xael (Xael_Xorlarrin[at]hotmail[dot]com):
Circle of Eight, Highfolk, Vesve Forest and The Yatil Monutains.

Demon Atheist:
The Shadow Guild -Infiltrator trait.

Paxus Asclepius (joejay1066[at]yahoo[dot]com):
The Pomarj, Crystalmists, Jotens, Hellfurnaces, Griff Mountains, Raker Mountains, and the Dreadwoods.

Devilish (devilishd[at]yahoo[dot]com):
Valley of the Mage, Acererak and the Tomb of Horrors, The Cold Marches and Blackmoor. 

Rikandur Azebol (Guldan[at]wp[dot]pl,  privacy concerns stated here):
Iuz: Demigod. Empire of Iuz: Stonehold, The Empire of Iuz, Tenh, The Bandit Kingdoms. 

Thomas Hobbes (ternashandrik[at]yahoo[dot]com):
The Church of Tritherion, Celene, Lendarl Islands

Forsaken One (NukemUntilTheyGlow[at]hotmail[dot]com):
Troll/Sanguhuin Druocracy (at either Troll Fens, Land of Black Ice, and Gulf of Re, or Hepmonland)

Venus (mabisschops[at]hotmail[dot]com):
Orchreich, Upper Kahnate, Lower Kahnate

Edena_of_Neith (contact via PM as detailed here):
Drow

Guilt_Puppy (puppy[at]rowf[dot]net); privacy concerns stated here):
Scarlet Brotherhood

James Heard (dunlandor[at]earthlink[dot]net):
Sea Princes

Creamsteak (creamsteak[at]hotmail[dot]com):
Illithids, Beholders in the Deep Underdark (detailed here)
[/sblock]


----------



## The Forsaken One (Dec 2, 2004)

NukemUntilTheyGlow[at]hotmail.com


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 2, 2004)

The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> NukemUntilTheyGlow[at]hotmail.com




Edited in to previous post.  Uh, that's not special for this game, is it...?


----------



## The Forsaken One (Dec 2, 2004)

> Edited in to previous post. Uh, that's not special for this game, is it...?



Nah  Had it since I was 13 years old  (that almost 8 years ago )

Starcraft inspired me hehe, I was a pro-gamer Terran player and well... nothing is as cool as an Infested Terran but as Terran you gotta stick with your teams 500 dmg dealer


----------



## William Ronald (Dec 2, 2004)

Sorry that I was away for a bit.  My computer started acting up yesterday, so I had to take care of a few things.   In the good news, one headache is resolved as soon as I can visit a mailbox.  So, I am SERIOUSLY considering joining in.  As such, I will try to round up more people.

Rikandur Azebol, thanks for the invite.  As for Iuz, based on my reading of the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, I suspect he gained demigodhood shortly before his disappearance in 505 Common Year.  During his disappearance, Iuz's clergy had magical powers and the faith grew.  (Of course, Iuz's cult may have had a little demonic help. Iuz's dad is the Demon Prince Graz'zt he might have had a bit of help.  Iggwilv, a powerful arcane caster who was or perhaps is Iuz's mother, could have provided some help for him.  Iggwilv was/is of mixed Flan and Baklunish stock, which would tend to preclude full acceptance by the Suel supremacists of the Scarlet Brotherhood.

I see you may have realized one of the big problems with turning off the sun: agriculture and plantlife. Also, it might be a problem for lycanthropes, as you can't really have much moonlight without sunlight. Suffice it to say, everything seems to be getting interesting.  

You might be interested to read The Final Word on Iuz and Company written by Erik Mona and Witch Queen, Demon Lord 

Everyone, do try to get a Living Greyhawk Journal. It can help give you an idea of who is who in the World of Greyhawk and might give you a few more ideas for your faction.  

Edena, thanks for the insight on the Solistarrim.  I agree with you now that greed, not racial hatred is a primary motivating factor of theirs.   I do like the H.G. Wells reference. They would truly be a wild card.

I am fairly familiar with the World of Greyhawk, as I do play in Living Greyhawk events.  (There was a convention in the Chicago suburbs, with a great interactive involving a castle seige, giants, trolls, and ogres.) So, while we await the return of Serpenteye, can I answer any questions for the factions here.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Dec 2, 2004)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> I see you may have realized one of the big problems with turning off the sun: agriculture and plantlife.




The Hellrakers may provide something of a solution to that; geothermal energy can sustain some edible plants, if not the nice wholesome grains humans and their ilk favor so.  Obviously, they'd have to be expanded, but if we can snuff out the sun, a few extra volcanic vents shouldn't be problematic.


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 2, 2004)

My email address is somebodys_fool[at]hotmail[dot]com if anyone wants to contact me. Need something done done discretely? A leader brought round to your way of thinking? Or conveniently removed? Along with his entire family? And a whole other family set up in their place? And some other guy framed for it? Well, you know where to come... If anything, of any scale, needs to be done discretely and behind the scenes, I'm sure we can come to some kind of mutually beneficial arrangement...   

What was the final word on fiendish influence? Can I get some Baatezu support officially added to my portfolio? If not, that's cool too, but I just want to be sure.

 Oh, and for the record, 'shepherds' has an H in it.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 2, 2004)

Notes we're up to 15 players, if William plays.
  If Anabstercorian joins, that would be 16.

  (sighs, thinking Gez, Melkor and Darkness are sitting this one out.)

  Remembers Serpenteye hoped for 20 players.

  - - -

  Notes both James and Knight Otu are claiming the Sea Barons.


----------



## Knight Otu (Dec 2, 2004)

Actually, James claims the Sea *Princes*, a different entity altogether, to my south-west.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Dec 2, 2004)

I'm very much joining this game.  But for goodness sake, people, hold your horses!  The game hasn't even started yet, you goofs, and you're already making power plays.  Wait until things get properly organized, or everything shall surely spiral in to madness and spite.

But yeah, I'm going to be the Cult of Elemental Evil and the Black Cult of Tharizdun, I think, so, yes, snuff out the sun? That does sound appealing.


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## Guilt Puppy (Dec 2, 2004)

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I'm very much joining this game.  But for goodness sake, people, hold your horses!  The game hasn't even started yet, you goofs, and you're already making power plays.  Wait until things get properly organized, or everything shall surely spiral in to madness and spite.




Agreed. If we're to go into the start of play with alliances already existing, then there should at least be a designated time for such alliance-making (as it appears there was in the 3rd IR, but I'll admit to not having fully perused those threads yet, to be sure.)



> But yeah, I'm going to be the Cult of Elemental Evil and the Black Cult of Tharizdun, I think, so, yes, snuff out the sun? That does sound appealing.




On the above note, the Elder Brothers would like to reiterate that we have no existing relation to the Cult of Tharizdun, nor are we seeking any such alliance. Any rumors to the contrary are wholly unfounded.

BTW, what's your email address?


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 2, 2004)

> Nah  Had it since I was 13 years old  (that almost 8 years ago )
> 
> Starcraft inspired me hehe, I was a pro-gamer Terran player and well... nothing is as cool as an Infested Terran but as Terran you gotta stick with your teams 500 dmg dealer




Ah, fond childhood memories (sez the guy who's a couple of years younger than you...).



> Everyone, do try to get a Living Greyhawk Journal. It can help give you an idea of who is who in the World of Greyhawk and might give you a few more ideas for your faction.




I've heard also of a "living greyhawk gazeteer."  Are they one and the same?  Where might we find one?

Fresh list:

[sblock]
Eluvan (somebodys_fool[at]hotmail[dot]com):
"Shepherds in Darkness" -Secret organization with Infiltrator trait, based in Greyhawk.

Knight Otu (olifran[at]gmx[dot]de):
Cult of Ashardalon. The Great Kingdom: Northern Aerdy, United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Almor, Rel Astra, the Sea Barons.

Xael (Xael_Xorlarrin[at]hotmail[dot]com):
Circle of Eight, Highfolk, Vesve Forest and The Yatil Monutains.

Demon Atheist:
The Shadow Guild -Infiltrator trait.

Paxus Asclepius (joejay1066[at]yahoo[dot]com):
The Pomarj, Crystalmists, Jotens, Hellfurnaces, Griff Mountains, Raker Mountains, and the Dreadwoods.

Devilish (devilishd[at]yahoo[dot]com):
Valley of the Mage, Acererak and the Tomb of Horrors, The Cold Marches and Blackmoor. 

Rikandur Azebol (Guldan[at]wp[dot]pl,  privacy concerns stated here):
Iuz: Demigod. Empire of Iuz: Stonehold, The Empire of Iuz, Tenh, The Bandit Kingdoms. 

Thomas Hobbes (ternashandrik[at]yahoo[dot]com):
The Church of Tritherion, Celene, Lendarl Islands

Forsaken One (NukemUntilTheyGlow[at]hotmail[dot]com):
Troll/Sanguhuin Druocracy (at either Troll Fens, Land of Black Ice, and Gulf of Re, or Hepmonland)

Venus (mabisschops[at]hotmail[dot]com):
Orchreich, Upper Kahnate, Lower Kahnate

Edena_of_Neith (contact via PM as detailed here):
Drow

Guilt_Puppy (puppy[at]rowf[dot]net); privacy concerns stated here):
Scarlet Brotherhood

James Heard (dunlandor[at]earthlink[dot]net):
Sea Princes

Creamsteak (creamsteak[at]hotmail[dot]com):
Illithids, Beholders in the Deep Underdark (detailed here)

Anabstercorian:
Cult of Elemental Evil, Cult of Tharizdun.
[/sblock]

I'm really looking forward to this, fellows.  Should be a blast!


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Dec 3, 2004)

Oh, Edena and Anab here too.
Nice to see you. 
And everyone else too.

Mmh, awfully lot evil factions. So, how are you going to create some stir between evil and good and not just lawful vr. chaotic evil with neutrals forced to behave like neutral evil faction, because of all this pressure. Plus some insane destructive evil to ruin day for everyone (including themselves, which they probably don't take into account or care much for).

Are you going to force your dm Serpent Eye to play good factions to spite him about all the lawful evilness he put into his factions in previous IR:s?


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 3, 2004)

I'd be interested in adding the Theocracy of the Pale to my list, if they weren't, y'know, almost diametrically opposed philisophically speaking.  It would be an interesting challenge to try and salvage a country about to be swarmed by Iuz and the Wolf-God.


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 3, 2004)

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Oh, Edena and Anab here too.
> Plus some insane destructive evil to ruin day for everyone (including themselves, which they probably don't take into account or care much for).




 Oh, now I don't know about that....


----------



## James Heard (Dec 3, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Actually, James claims the Sea *Princes*, a different entity altogether, to my south-west.




Yup, and I'm watching everyone claim these huge swaths of land and power groups and wondering if I shouldn't have laid claim to the whole south of the equator just to hope to keep up with all the demigods, entire races, and massive  power blocks that seem guaranteed to pave my lands over with roads going after each other even if I try to stay out of the way. *sigh*


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 3, 2004)

It's OK; we can form an alliance of "those who do not wish to be eaten."  I can see it now... "The Inedible League!"


----------



## James Heard (Dec 3, 2004)

If I read the 3rd IR correctly that just means we'd be erecting signs saying "eat me first".

Some of the questions I've got include: 

Would the Princes get back the territory seized by the Scarlet Brotherhood and contested after the Greyhawk Wars?

What sort of power structure would I be allowed to invent for the "20 years after" nature of a shattered nation. As of the LGG, the Sea Princes are a real mess. Like a nest of ants that's been tread upon mess. Preferably I'd like the Princes and the Olman savages to have come to some sort of agreement of among equals, with the Olman recognizing the technological and naval potential of the Princes and the Princes conceding the situation of having an enormous chaotic group of warriors running rampant on your lands (albiet far from home and without any real sense of order that might make the force more formidable).

I just don't want to be Haiti while everyone else is running a nuclear power. I mean, that's challenging and all, but right now I'm thinking that I'm going to be trading quaint Sea Princes ethnic art for overpriced food and cheap obselete weapons for my corrupt police forces at this rate.


----------



## Guilt Puppy (Dec 3, 2004)

James Heard said:
			
		

> Would the Princes get back the territory seized by the Scarlet Brotherhood and contested after the Greyhawk Wars?




Which might push me into a Haitian situation of my own -- not sure, as I don't pretend to be an expert in Post-War geography or anything. Ironic, considering I'm the guy working on the map (which is progressing beautifully, I might add. I have a script set up to color it in on the fly based on who is designated as controlling what territory... now I just have to set up a script to actually do said designating  )

In any case, I'm under the impression that territory is not the most substantial factor in determining the power of a given faction -- I trust Serpenteye will work things out in a manner which keeps the game balanced, at least to the point that all factions will be competitive.


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Dec 3, 2004)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> Rikandur Azebol, thanks for the invite.  As for Iuz, based on my reading of the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, I suspect he gained demigodhood shortly before his disappearance in 505 Common Year.  During his disappearance, Iuz's clergy had magical powers and the faith grew.  (Of course, Iuz's cult may have had a little demonic help. Iuz's dad is the Demon Prince Graz'zt he might have had a bit of help.  Iggwilv, a powerful arcane caster who was or perhaps is Iuz's mother, could have provided some help for him.  Iggwilv was/is of mixed Flan and Baklunish stock, which would tend to preclude full acceptance by the Suel supremacists of the Scarlet Brotherhood.




Hush ! As far as I know, Brotherhood have enough common sense to see advantages of alliance with my godling. Besides, with true mystery about Iggwilv's orgins ... she is suposed to be Louhi, for example, and enraging such powerful caster is unwise. Guilt Puppy, how would You say about that?
During these 20 years of peace everything could be changed. Even "stock" from wich people descend.  

Not to mention that Iuz is supermacist too. My God ! If I knew that he is so ... irredemable from the beggining I would seriously consider other faction. I will change him and his portfolio during the game, that's for sure.   



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I see you may have realized one of the big problems with turning off the sun: agriculture and plantlife. Also, it might be a problem for lycanthropes, as you can't really have much moonlight without sunlight. Suffice it to say, everything seems to be getting interesting.




I wasn't writing about agriculture ... Iuz's subjects can eat fungi and drink fungus beer, and be happy that their god is busy somewhere else. Simply, if humans and other light loving races would have a choice of choosing harder way and simpler ... they would choose simple one. Ie, living under the sun and growing fat in their bliss.  Without the sun, they would be forced to fit into the nightly life. And advantage of darkness being feared by light-lovers would be lost. That's all, imagine Iuz worrying about someobody ?!    



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> Everyone, do try to get a Living Greyhawk Journal. It can help give you an idea of who is who in the World of Greyhawk and might give you a few more ideas for your faction.




Wonder if Iuz's empire is described here, for example I don't know what was the event that stripped him of most of his demons. Devils Exile or something ... 



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I am fairly familiar with the World of Greyhawk, as I do play in Living Greyhawk events.  (There was a convention in the Chicago suburbs, with a great interactive involving a castle seige, giants, trolls, and ogres.) So, while we await the return of Serpenteye, can I answer any questions for the factions here.




Yes ! Who was ruling Fuoryndy after Greyhawk Wars ? Iuz's brother or someone else ?


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Dec 3, 2004)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> Rikandur Azebol, thanks for the invite.  As for Iuz, based on my reading of the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, I suspect he gained demigodhood shortly before his disappearance in 505 Common Year.  During his disappearance, Iuz's clergy had magical powers and the faith grew.  (Of course, Iuz's cult may have had a little demonic help. Iuz's dad is the Demon Prince Graz'zt he might have had a bit of help.  Iggwilv, a powerful arcane caster who was or perhaps is Iuz's mother, could have provided some help for him.  Iggwilv was/is of mixed Flan and Baklunish stock, which would tend to preclude full acceptance by the Suel supremacists of the Scarlet Brotherhood.




Hush ! As far as I know, Brotherhood have enough common sense to see advantages of alliance with my godling. Besides, with true mystery about Iggwilv's orgins ... she is suposed to be Louhi, for example, and enraging such powerful caster is unwise. Guilt Puppy, how would You say about that?
During these 20 years of peace everything could be changed. Even "stock" from wich people descend.  

Not to mention that Iuz is supermacist too. My God ! If I knew that he is so ... irredemable from the beggining I would seriously consider other faction. I will change him and his portfolio during the game, that's for sure.   



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I see you may have realized one of the big problems with turning off the sun: agriculture and plantlife. Also, it might be a problem for lycanthropes, as you can't really have much moonlight without sunlight. Suffice it to say, everything seems to be getting interesting.




I wasn't writing about agriculture ... Iuz's subjects can eat fungi and drink fungus beer, and be happy that their god is busy somewhere else. Simply, if humans and other light loving races would have a choice of choosing harder way and simpler ... they would choose simple one. Ie, living under the sun and growing fat in their bliss.  Without the sun, they would be forced to fit into the nightly life. And advantage of darkness being feared by light-lovers would be lost. That's all, imagine Iuz worrying about someobody ?!    



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> Everyone, do try to get a Living Greyhawk Journal. It can help give you an idea of who is who in the World of Greyhawk and might give you a few more ideas for your faction.




Wonder if Iuz's empire is described here, for example I don't know what was the event that stripped him of most of his demons. Devils Exile or something ... 



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I am fairly familiar with the World of Greyhawk, as I do play in Living Greyhawk events.  (There was a convention in the Chicago suburbs, with a great interactive involving a castle seige, giants, trolls, and ogres.) So, while we await the return of Serpenteye, can I answer any questions for the factions here.




Yes ! Who was ruling Fuoryndy after Greyhawk Wars ? Iuz's brother or someone else ?    

Haitan situation ? Folly, who else thinks that martial power is the real factor that counts ? :\


----------



## Guilt Puppy (Dec 3, 2004)

As I mentioned, I've been working on a nice, updateable map for the game... It's still very much Work-in-Progress, but I thought I'd share the state of things, so you folks can tool around with it, make suggestions. http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-edit.php

To-do list:
- Add zooming, territory names to map.
- Fix one or two "broken" territories
- Get a better list of faction names
- Get a better list of territory names (once you can zoom around and such, it'll be easier for folks more familiar with Greyhawk than I to make suggestions.)
- Have a non-dynamically-served (but still always-up-to-date) world map available for viewing, to eat less cycles and hopefully avoid angering my webhost.
- Password-protect for serp, once the bugs are worked out 

Anyway, feel free to mess around with it, conquer the world, try to break the script, whatever. Any feature suggestions you have will be duly noted, but probably ignored, as it's been more work than I would have liked already


----------



## James Heard (Dec 3, 2004)

Wow. Just...wow.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 3, 2004)

James Heard said:
			
		

> Wow. Just...wow.




Seconded.

I like the way that little bit of Pomarji mountain range looks like it's eating the Theocracy of the Pale.


----------



## Xael (Dec 3, 2004)

Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Seconded.



Thirded. Whoa.


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Dec 3, 2004)

*WoW !*

I'm speechless ... It's great. Indeed ... Suel people art superior to other humans.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 3, 2004)

Holy mackeral!  Yes!  That is a map we can work with!

  I claimed the Drow of the Flanaess only.  Not the Drow of the whole Oerik continent.  This assumes Serpenteye allows it.
  The drow do not hold any surface areas, as far as I know, officially.
  However, I suppose they could have gained control of (tiny) surface areas, here and there, a scattering of tiny places across the map, which represent where major drow cities have established frontier outposts on the surface.
  Overall, though, the drow would not control any more land than James has with the Sea Princes.

  We have a problem here.  James is, as he has said, severely outgunned.  The Sea Princes alone could not hope to stand up against all these major powers, especially if they form the megalithic alliance I see forming.
  What to do?

  I would recommend that whoever claims the Kevellond League ALSO get the Baklunish nations of Zeif, Ekbir, Tusmit, Ket, Yecha, Ull, the Paynims, and the Dry Steppes (the Spirit Empire of Garnak and Istivar in the 3rd IR) which was the Baklunish Confederation in the 3rd IR.
  And, if that is not enticement enough to play the greatly threatened good and neutral nations, also give that player Nyrond, the Duchy and County of Urnst, the Iron League, and Sunndi.

  If 2 or 3 players claim these factions, they may end up being forced allies from the start.  If I was in their position, I would definitely ally with the other good players!  Thus, again we would effectively have one great coalition of countries, albeit played by a couple of different players.

  Such a unity of nations, whether run by one player or several players attempting to survive together in a harsh world, might be a match for the evil powers on the board.  (Some harsh diplomacy might work too, as in the IC version of the following:  The first power to attack ANY of our nations gets it.  See?  We don't care if the other evil powers later triumph:  we will make certain that YOUR power is crushed.  So stay smart, stay alive, and leave us alone!)


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 3, 2004)

Hey there Zelda.  Nice to see you again!  
  Are you jumping in to the IR?


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 3, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Holy mackeral!  Yes!  That is a map we can work with!
> 
> I claimed the Drow of the Flanaess only.  Not the Drow of the whole Oerik continent.  This assumes Serpenteye allows it.
> The drow do not hold any surface areas, as far as I know, officially.
> ...




 Maybe he could reach some kind of arrangement with a secret organisation that has the power to infiltrate such an vast coalition and tear it apart from the inside with dissent. Ummm... not that I know any organisations like that.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 3, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (hobbles in on his cane)
> 
> Hey there, Serpenteye, you'all.  Thanks for the invite!
> Let me have a look at this thread.  It is over 7 pages, and need some time to grasp it all.  I am interested in the game.
> ...




Hey there Edena . It's great to see you again, Welcome to (my humble) IR. 

-
Everyone  ... The dog ate my computer.   
I have no idea what you have been up to these lst few days, it will take me a while to read and answer all your posts, but it's obvious that the IR itself is doing well, though it's somewhat delayed. I would like to thank you all for your patience.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 3, 2004)

Hey there, Serpenteye.  Welcome back.  And cheers to your 5th IR.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 3, 2004)

Venus said:
			
		

> You... You... Maniac!
> I haven't decided which faction I'll play, but I have decided that I'm in!




Welcome Venus!



			
				The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> I just found out abuot this threads thanks to William. I'll read up on it later today or else tomorrow. Expect a reply




Great to see you again Forsaken_One. 

Thanks William .



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Touche.   My apologies, I feel quite embarassed now... especially since rampant insomnia is giving me lots of free time when no one else is awake to talk to and I'm too tired to read books.
> 
> The List, and further reponse to the whole militia thing (current reponse is mostly "Well, that makes sense.") coming after breakfast.




No need for apologies. I'm the one who should apologize.

Nice treatise, .



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> From the time of Greyhawk Wars 20 years has passed ... do You think that it were not enough time to copletly strenghten Iuz's grip over the lands conquered ? As Serpenteye pointed out only Vesve elves still trouble Empire and some dying remmants of partisans from other forest ... wich live by grace of Iuz, and as focal point for all those who might cause big troubles othervise.




Hitler=High Charisma=Yes. Although we who look at films of his speaches today only see a screaming little maniac our perceptions are coloured by what we know about his deeds. For many of his contemporaries he was indeed a demigod.


Oh, Iuz's grip is strong indeed. Few can escape his notice and few can evade his absolute justice. The last 20 years have been relatively peaceful, stability is the rule across the Flanaess.




			
				The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> Are the stuff I'm thinking about claiming. Formians are tempting as I introduced them to Greyhawk  (They aren't native there Serpenteye, I asked if I could use them there ). But it's so cliche... I'll be wanting to play a Troll Kingdom/Nation or the Sahuagins. In any case something nature themed, a druidic society. A druocracy .
> 
> Sahuagin or Troll druid ruled kingdom or two would suit my wishes best.
> 
> Good luck with this show  You'll need it




The Troll kingdom is rather tiny. But since the entire population is Elite (and a handful are Epic) it would be a powerful military force.

The Sahuagin... would probably get a penalty to Industrialization. Fire is essential to most heavy industry, and it's hard to light a fire under the sea.
They would however be both rich and powerful, not to mention secure in their dark and hidden depths.



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Hi I got Williams's e-mail and got here to see. Ok, it was gone to my spam-box for some reason, so it took some time before I noticed it.
> 
> Quite an amazing number of intrest. I come back to read some more, when I have time.




Amazing indeed. Welcome Zelda!

Thanks WR .



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> Rules look nice. Just checking in so that you know I'm still alive.




Whew! That's a relief!  

I too am alive, though I'm not so sure I'll survive the hailstorm of rotten tomatoes I'm likely to be hit with when people see that I'm back   .




			
				Venus said:
			
		

> Things I'm thinking of claiming:
> - Orcreich: A nation of orcs ruled by a tyrannical king. The orcs seem to thrive under the brutal regime.
> -High Khanate: An and land peopled by two tribes of sturdy nomads. The inlanders resemble the horsemen of the Balkanish (Baklunish? RH) Basin, but on the coast they take to boats.
> - Low Khanate: A companion realm to the High Khanate; named more for its location in a deep vale below the mountains than for any inferior status. A hidden valley reputedly contains the tombs of khans from both realms.




I seem to recall that somebody had claimed Orcreich. If they didn't it's yours, and the Khanates too. You are now officially a Great Power.




			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> Ok, this looks interesting and I've seen the rules but I still have absolutely no clue what it's all about- like little details such as "what does IR stand for?" and "are you already full?"




Welcome James! No, no, we're never full. Never! There's always room for more souls for me to consume. Muahahaha! (sorry ).




			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> "Industrial Revolution" and "No, we're not full."




Yes, that's it.




			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> Hah, ok. So what about some sort of loose collection of bards of some sort? The rock and roll faction? Novelists for change? Poets of Elan? The Spears of Britney? Barring that I think I could do with sailors, any sailor's nations left?




Well, (un)fortunately there are no Harpers on Oerth. There were a handful, but Ashardalon ate them all. 
I don't think there are any significant forces of bards anywhere on official Oerth. But you could always invent a faction.
Sailors... Well, the Tarquish Dominion/Empire, at the far west of the continent, are still unclaimed. They are skilled sailors and quite powerful too.





			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (said hesitantly)
> 
> I request to take control of a power not listed:  the Drow of the Underdark.
> I'm assuming the drow live under the great mountain ranges:
> ...




That sounds great Edena , the Drow are yours.

Wherever there is darkness there are Drow... 

They don't all live under mountain-ranges. The underdark extends under plains and forests too, parts of it are even under the sea. 
The Drow are chaotic, insane, evil, intelligent deadly scheamers. A lot of them are Epic and Elite. Only a fool would underestimate them. Unfortunately Lolth is also, as are all the other true Gods, locked away beyond the Seal. We have some precedence to what happens when the Drow lose their connection to their Goddess, and it's not pretty at all  . If you can hold back the chaos and forge a solid whole ot of the Drow race you will be more powerful than any of the other factions who have been selected up until now.

The Drow of Elistraee are few... so very very few on Oerth. You see, Ashardalon ate most of them .




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I note three major powers on the map have not been claimed:  the Kevellond League, the Baklunish nations, and Nyrond (and the Urnst nations?)
> 
> Nobody has claimed the Knights of Luna, the Knights of the Hart, or any of the similar organizations.




Sadly no. Those areas, if left unclaimed, would probably be where much of the power of the Infiltrator organization was based, but they really do need a player to guide them actively.

The knightly organizations would count as a few Elite PLs added to the nation they are located in.




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, are any of the powers of Greyspace allowed?
> You know, the Elven Imperial Spelljamming Navy?
> The Scro Fleet?
> The Illithid Squid Ships?
> ...




Most spelljamming factions were locked out of Oerthspace before the beginning of the IR, but a few vessels were instead trapped inside the Sphere. They won't be major factions, but they are still claimable with one exception. THERE ARE NO SPELLJAMMING MOUNTAINS. Those who have read the 3rd IR knows why... Giving any faction access to them would be like giving them hydrogen-bombs. Explosive fun, but unbalancing. 

The Astral and Ethereal planes coterminous to Oerth were sealed in together with the Prime-material parts. So yes, the Gith-races are claimable. 

The seelie and unseelie on Oerth are mostly of the lesser, extremely chaotic kind. They are nearly completely unable to organize themselves into factions for any length of time. But they might heed the call when they face a powerful common enemy.

The Ice Elves are indeed around. They are few, but powerful and highly arcane. They do own an Artifact and have a small head-start in the Magic Armsrace. They are reluctant to ally with anyone who will not accept their rule, but they would make an interesting faction. 





			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> If the drow are disallowed, may I lay claim to a concept for Oerth I created on my own?
> This concept would be the Solistarim.  Led by an evil wizard, they are a confederation of primarily lawful and neutral evil races up in the Godspires (a mountain range that covers the tip of the Flanaess from the Black Ice northward.)
> The primary races of the Solistarim, in my conception, were the following (all live in the Godspires, Black Ice, or immediately adjacent to it on land, sea, and air) :
> 
> ...




The Drow are allowed, but so are the Solistarim. They are everything you said they are, a potent Elite and Epic force. Though their numbers are somewhat limited for the sake of game-balance they are still a potent threat to the unclean races of the Flannaes.




			
				Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Heh... if you give Edena the Drow, I want to play...
> 
> _...the Illithids..._




The Illithids dwell even deeper into the hidden depths of Oerth than the Drow. Their society is as twisted and evil as it is cultured and refined. The Illithids are a higher order of beings than the filth that crawls under the scorching sun of the surface, but they spend most of their time fighting their deadly advesaries... the Drow. 

They are powerful. How could they not be? Though not as numerous as the Drow they are by far better organized, and because of their alien nature they have a substantial bonus against foreigh Infiltration.




			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> As I said previously, I will likely be pretty swamped catching up on things.  However, I would like to help serve as a resource if I find a question I can answer for people.  (Working on a homebrew and fiction is likely going to be time consuming.  So, I will be reluctant to make any commitment that I can't keep. I did not yet receive an answer on the time involved.  I do know that I can't put in as much energy as I did in the 3rd IR.)  I am glad that my e-mail helped out.  Hello to Edena, Creamsteak, and Zelda!!
> 
> Edena, Eclavdra is a priestess of Lolth, and is listed in the Epic Level Handbook as a 23rd level cleric.  She is not particularly charismatic, but is known for her cunning and her cruelty.   (You got the spelling right.)
> 
> ...





Listen to William, people, for he is wise in the ways of the IR.

Iuz does, however, have a strong hold on his population. Since it is mostly based on fear, though, instead of true loyalty the people may respond poorly if they percieve a weakness in their ruler. That is a problem most players might face, but it is doubly true for the chaotic evil races. 

The Hold of the Sea Princes is ruled by the Scarlet Brotherhood, and someonw already claimed that.

The Trolls are in the Troll-(fens?swamp) north of the Theocracy.

The Bone-marsh is open for players. A good additional claim for people with an Orcish or Goblinoid focus to their faction.


----------



## Creamsteak (Dec 3, 2004)

Welcome back Serpenteye.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 3, 2004)

James Heard said:
			
		

> Ok, so I'll take the Sea Princes if no one minds. After reading the LGG entry it sounds suitably anarchistic and removed from the worries of the rest of the world. Maybe I'll even attempt to turn my nation of pirates into bardic pirates...




They have been taken, sorry. The HOld of the Sea Princes came under control of the Scarlet brotherhood during the Grewhawy war and remain so to this day. 
There are other naval powers in the West. Nippon, the Tarquish Dominion, various undersea races...




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Thank you, William.
> 
> The Solistarim do not control the City of the Gods.  Their forays into it have met with repeated disaster.
> However, the Solistarim do claim the alliegance of the nation of Blackmoor and the surrounding marches, along with all the land down to the Burneal Forest.  This claim is loose and has not been enforced, but it is there nonetheless.
> ...





The City of Gods (an extremely powerful high-tech NPC faction (a dead city ruled by computers)) is a legend in this IR. It is one old rumor of many, and few know that it exists. Hidden beneath the surface, protected by technology so ancient and powerful that it's indistinguishable from magic for the common men of Oerth it holds untold riches and power. If you can find it and penetrate its defenses there's no telling what you might find, what power may be put into your hands.
But beware for though the city seems dead it is very much alive and its retribution is crushing...

The players who choose to play Goodly factions are brave indeed... I do not so much forsee a conflict between Good and Evil as we saw in the beginning of the 3rd IR, though. Since Evil is so dominant it is very possible that Evil players will percieve Good factions as less of a threat than we used to do in the 3rd IR, thus there will be no need to ally against them.
Good factions have a huge potential advantage in diplomacy. Trustworthyness is their greatest weapon. Trustworthyness and honour are their greatest weapons. Trustworthyness and honour and surprise... (nobody expects the celestial inquisition...)




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I really am more of a mind to claim the drow, in their scattered enclaves, with Eclavdra as their queen.
> 
> Count me as claiming the drow (and being wishy-washy), Serpenteye.
> 
> ...




I allow, I allow. How could I not .

The Drow are everywhere. The underdark is vast and scattered and extends under most regions of the Flannaes. The Hellfurnaces hold the greatest and most powerful cities, but other centers of power are under the Pomarj and Celene, The Urnst-region and the Rakers.
The Bakluni-region and the Celestial Imperium are relatively free of underground caverns (and would form the border-zone for your influence), but the underdark continues to the West under the mountains and deserts of those vast lands.




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (With gratitude to William and Maudlin)
> 
> Here is a link that if you follow, you can bring up closeup maps of various parts of the Flanaess, or a closeup of the entire Flanaess.  Recommended:
> 
> ...





True, all true... Thanks Edena.

I only hope I can fill your shoes.   




			
				The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> If I get the chance I'm not pulling punches this time. This time I will blow everything to smithereens muhahahahaa!
> 
> The Peninsula east of the Pearl Sea. I'll claim that as a Huge forest / Jungle and as an ancient troll kingdom/nation. Perhaps Sahuagin from the Pearl Sea as allies if the Trolls won't suffice.
> 
> ...




And I'm not pulling any punches either... 

Peninsula-land... Ok, that's definately better than the Troll(swamp/march/place) north of the Theocracy. Serious blowing-up-the-World potential there. I think they'll suffice. 




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Again, here is Maudlin's last map from the 3rd IR, and the only one I can still link to.  It's a beautiful map, and it shows how ABSOLUTELY VITAL IT IS that we have such a working map for Serpenteye's IR!
> 
> http://users.pandora.be/maudlin/Greyhawk.jpg
> 
> ...




Absolutely Vital.

Ahh, that's a beautiful map. So much purple...




			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> (OOC: Thou art ... beautiful, Edena. Sob, sob ... Pity that Iuz, being a paranoical maniac, might not understand beauty of Eclavdra's statements.   )




Edena is a man, Rik. That's not to say that he can't be beautiful, he's got a beautiful mind for sure, I just thought you should know.




			
				Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, where is your factions list?
> 
> In the 3rd IR, Iuz found that forest to be one of his largest threats. Beware what sleeps...




It's everywhere... (Page 2 or 3).




			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Anabstercorian rustles himself from a morbid slumber.  Then, he goes back to bed.
> 
> "Heck, enough of Anabstercorian.  He's long since retired, and if he's involved in this it's only as a peripheral puppet master.  Can I play The Cult of Tharizdun?  We need a Melkor-esque."
> 
> Also, I'm in college now, so I have slightly less time available for play.  Can we assume there will be more strict controls on the flow of time in game?




Melkor-esque... Several people have threatened to blow up the World already, but the Cult of Tharizdun is closer to the primal forces of Evil than the others. It fits very well in with what I had planned as the frame-plot of the IR.
 (A Big Evil rises in the Abyss and threatens the Multiverse. It unites the Abyss and overruns Hell in a matter of days, then it begins to spread. The Gods of Oerth are terrified and seal off the Crystal Sphere in a place beyond the Multiverse where they believe noone can reach the world that is their sustenance, not even themselves...)
Perhaps Tharizdun could be an aspect of that Big Evil?

Oh, and Welcome Anabstercorian! Welcome to the IR. 




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Nothing like creating more work for Serpenteye (my sympathies to you, Serpenteye:  I've been in your shoes!!)
> 
> Or, perhaps, there is another way for us to communicate?  Back in the 3rd IR, the players had a private (and secret, for a long time) message board in which they talked.  Perhaps we could establish such a thing here, with Serpenteye's blessings?




I have absolutely no problem with that. It's a great idea. I'd just like to request that you (everyone) maintain a certain level of courtesy even when writing about the players who don't have access to the board. They will eventually read it anyway, after the end of the IR or sooner, and it's best if noone is seriously offended by what they read. E-Mails are still the more private alternative. 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Where did everybody go?






			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Waiting for Serpenteye, I presume.




Sorry ;(.



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> I could imagine that Iuz was busy enough with internal problems, cleaning everything up cost many lives and precious time, as well as subjugating Stonefist and Tenh wholly. I guess that from the Horned Society my forces were kicked out. Pity, I'm sure that thoe responsilbe for this failure scream still.




Did somebody claim the Horned Society? If not the area is still yours. I simply took for granted that the society itself no looner existed and that the lands were part of the territory known as the Empire of Iuz.



			
				Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> Waiting on serp as well, and working on a map by and by.




Great. Thank you very much.  We will probably need a map of the entire planet in addition to this one, but I can do that.





			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> (OOC: Anyone suposses what might caused Serpenteye's silence ? I didn't found him in Iuz's dungeons.  )




Ehrm... I ascended to Godhood last weekend and was therefore Sealed out of the IR. Eh, yes, that's the ticket   
God of procrastination and bad excuses. 

(You can ascend to Godhood when the IR has begun without being sealed out of the IR )



			
				devilish said:
			
		

> We sits and we waits.
> 
> *and we hopes that SerpentEye is well ... but do this
> when no one is looking.




Thanks. 




			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I wonder if Serpenteye is still sick. Hopefully, he is feeling better.
> 
> Edena, thanks for the overview of the Solistarrim and the compliments!
> 
> ...




I'm feeling well enough. Thanks for your well-wishes. 

The Baklunish states would probably be the safest choice, but an alliance of the before-mentined would be quite strong. 
I'd love for you to play, you would be a great asset for the IR. You already have been. 
Don't worry, I'll keep the pace to a tolerable level, that I myself can keep up with.



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I think Serpenteye needs to explain what benefits the Good and Neutral powers might have in this IR.  So far, I suspect that most of those here believe that the evil factions will have an upper hand.  So, how will balance be maintained.  (In the 3rd IR, everyone had a chance to shine. The same should be true not just for online games, but every game.  At least I think so.)





Quite right. Most people on Oerth are Neutral in alignment, and most nations on Oerth are also Neutral. It stands to reason that Neutral nations would be more inclined to ally against Evil than with Evil when given a viable choice. Neutral NPC factions do pursue their own self-interest, but they do so with moderation and are more likely to ally with someone who's trying to save the world than someone who's trying to destroy or conquer it.
It's the same way for Good NPC factions, but to an even greater degree. I'm not saying that I'll miraculously include a powerful force of Good in the game just because the balance between alignments is in danger, but you will find that diplomacy is easier for Good PC factions than for Evil ones.
Evil NPC factions are far more likely to break alliances and stab their allies in the back. Evil NPC factions are more likely to fight amongst each others and drag an alliance into their own conflicts.

That being said, the dice will fall, and I'm playing no favourites. Alignment is only one aspect of the game, and it's not any more important than you all make it. Any one of you can win the game. In the end, the winners are those who survive.




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Hey there, all.
> 
> Serpenteye, if you are indeed sick, my best wishes for a speedy recovery, and a big welcome back when you return and can read this.
> 
> ...




Thanks, and you're right about the Sea and the Map 




			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> This was the list as it was quite some time ago.  I'm gonna run around the thread and see what other info (including contact info) I can find.




Thank you so much for your hard work. 




			
				Creamsteak said:
			
		

> If Serpenteye gives me permission to use these conventions, this is how I would break down my starting powers:
> 
> 3/9 Beholder Dominions. The Beholder Dominions that I have not been able to coax my way are "The First Eye" (the rulers), "The Final Forge" (the perfecters), "The Eternal Vigil" (the watchers), "The Revelations" (the seers), "The Enigma" (the strange), and "The Watching Wheel" (the wonderers).
> 
> ...




This is good. 



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> New list, with new players and contact info




Thanks.


----------



## Knight Otu (Dec 3, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Well, (un)fortunately there are no Harpers on Oerth. There were a handful, but Ashardalon ate them all.



 *burp* Oh, sorry. 

 Welcome back, Serpenteye!


----------



## Anabstercorian (Dec 3, 2004)

Well, let me work out just what it is my faction wants and can do.

In combat, our thaumaturgists can conjure mad elementals to do our bidding, and our doom-dreamers can breathe oblivion and render you in to Unbeing.

In diplomacy, our ideologues and street preachers can bring the dispossessed in to our midst, where they can be brought in to the cult of elemental evil and slowly prepared and primed for Tharizdun's Dark Glory.

In magic, we hold dark secrets - _incantations_ that pollute and distort the land, _spells_ that let us not only blast our foes but transport ourselves through the membrane of Not-is, _artifacts_ that grant us a modicum of power over the forces of un-Creation.

Our Leader, the Great and Terrible Mnemesi, is a Low-Epic (21-30) Half-Fiend Cleric with the Ontic template created by Sepulchrave to describe Soneillon.  His madness is infinite, his power limitless, his uncreative potential stunning to perceive...

Oh, and we want to end the world, plus some other stuff.  Mostly get Tharizdun out, but also bring other gods low and acquire material power.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 3, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> *Iuz sent _Sendings_ to all his allies feeling suddenly creative. *




It warms my heart to see all this great role-playing... 



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> Sorry that I was away for a bit.  My computer started acting up yesterday, so I had to take care of a few things.   In the good news, one headache is resolved as soon as I can visit a mailbox.  So, I am SERIOUSLY considering joining in.  As such, I will try to round up more people.




Oh, heh, I understand completely . Join, please join.



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I am fairly familiar with the World of Greyhawk, as I do play in Living Greyhawk events.  (There was a convention in the Chicago suburbs, with a great interactive involving a castle seige, giants, trolls, and ogres.) So, while we await the return of Serpenteye, can I answer any questions for the factions here.




Thanks William, for your assistance.  



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The Hellrakers may provide something of a solution to that; geothermal energy can sustain some edible plants, if not the nice wholesome grains humans and their ilk favor so.  Obviously, they'd have to be expanded, but if we can snuff out the sun, a few extra volcanic vents shouldn't be problematic.




Where there is a problem there is a solution.




			
				Eluvan said:
			
		

> What was the final word on fiendish influence? Can I get some Baatezu support officially added to my portfolio? If not, that's cool too, but I just want to be sure.




Yes you can. (note to self)




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Notes we're up to 15 players, if William plays.
> If Anabstercorian joins, that would be 16.
> 
> (sighs, thinking Gez, Melkor and Darkness are sitting this one out.)
> ...




15 players are great, actually more than I expected, though we could use a few more.
--
Knight Otu has the Sea Barons, and the Scarlet Brotherhood has the Sea Princes (I'n pretty sure). James has other options.



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Oh, Edena and Anab here too.
> Nice to see you.
> And everyone else too.
> 
> ...




I'm not enforcing alignments that strictly. The players are pretty much allowed to try anything and as long as it's not completely out of character for their race it's no problem with me. Faction-politics might force some actions, and people may have to make compromises with themselves, but that's life.

Oh, I can play Good too. It's no problem.




			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> I'd be interested in adding the Theocracy of the Pale to my list, if they weren't, y'know, almost diametrically opposed philisophically speaking.  It would be an interesting challenge to try and salvage a country about to be swarmed by Iuz and the Wolf-God.




Hmm, The Theocracy is in a difficult position and might be going trough a great deal of unrest soon. It would not at all be impossible that your faction could be in a position to take control over it in the beginning of the game. I can give you a partial control over it (as in the rules about Infiltration).




			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> Yup, and I'm watching everyone claim these huge swaths of land and power groups and wondering if I shouldn't have laid claim to the whole south of the equator just to hope to keep up with all the demigods, entire races, and massive  power blocks that seem guaranteed to pave my lands over with roads going after each other even if I try to stay out of the way. *sigh*




There are several huge swathes of land out there for you to claim. 




			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> It's OK; we can form an alliance of "those who do not wish to be eaten."  I can see it now... "The Inedible League!"




A league of neutrality pledging itself to take no offensive actions and only fight in self-defence...
 If you're not percieved as a threat, but are still strong enough to deterr an attack you may be more trouble than it's worth to conquer you. It was Sweden's (my country's) way of staying alive for 190 years without ever fighting a war. Ehm, but it's probably not going to wark as well in an IR.




			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> If I read the 3rd IR correctly that just means we'd be erecting signs saying "eat me first".
> 
> Some of the questions I've got include:
> 
> Would the Princes get back the territory seized by the Scarlet Brotherhood and contested after the Greyhawk Wars?




I was under the impression that The SB took over all of the Princes' territory. Now I'm thinking that I'm probably wrong.
Still, the SB would probably be gunning for you from day one. I cannot make The Sea Princes alone into a faction powerful enough to resist the Scarlet Brotherhood without throwing realism out the window, and I'm loath to do that. 
... I suppose I shoulf give you the Sea Princes if you want to play them, but it might make your time in this game both difficult and brief.




			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> What sort of power structure would I be allowed to invent for the "20 years after" nature of a shattered nation. As of the LGG, the Sea Princes are a real mess. Like a nest of ants that's been tread upon mess. Preferably I'd like the Princes and the Olman savages to have come to some sort of agreement of among equals, with the Olman recognizing the technological and naval potential of the Princes and the Princes conceding the situation of having an enormous chaotic group of warriors running rampant on your lands (albiet far from home and without any real sense of order that might make the force more formidable).




After 20 years the situation would have stabilized one way or the other. Perhaps both sides came to a peaceful understanding of the need to unite against their common Scarlet foe. They would perhaps have united under a loose confederal system with both sides mostly ruling themselves. 



			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> I just don't want to be Haiti while everyone else is running a nuclear power. I mean, that's challenging and all, but right now I'm thinking that I'm going to be trading quaint Sea Princes ethnic art for overpriced food and cheap obselete weapons for my corrupt police forces at this rate.




A good point. It all depends on what kind of role you want to play in the game. 
The nations in the far west are big, powerful and unclaimed.




			
				Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> Which might push me into a Haitian situation of my own -- not sure, as I don't pretend to be an expert in Post-War geography or anything. Ironic, considering I'm the guy working on the map (which is progressing beautifully, I might add. I have a script set up to color it in on the fly based on who is designated as controlling what territory... now I just have to set up a script to actually do said designating  )
> 
> In any case, I'm under the impression that territory is not the most substantial factor in determining the power of a given faction -- I trust Serpenteye will work things out in a manner which keeps the game balanced, at least to the point that all factions will be competitive.




Indeed, the actual territories are a lot less important tham the people in them. The biggest Empires tend to be populated by great masses of low-level humans or humanoids, and some of the smaller ones have a greater concentration of powerful individuals. I'll try to make it fit the classical DnD-istical system.

All factions have their own strengths and weaknesses, but they are not all created equal. Some of them are a lot stronger or weaker than others, just like in the 3rd IR or in the real world. 
(Actually the differences are much much smaller than in the real world. There's no equivalent to the USA here, nor is there a Haiti. But there are differences nonetheless)
Weakness can be an advantage, allowing you to escape notice and always making you a lower priority for the more powerful players to deal with. The most powerful factions will unite people against them, while the small factions can grow stronger in relative peace. It depends a lot on geography, the Underdark players have an advantage in that regard and so do the players who are based outside the Flannaes.





			
				Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> As I mentioned, I've been working on a nice, updateable map for the game... It's still very much Work-in-Progress, but I thought I'd share the state of things, so you folks can tool around with it, make suggestions. http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-edit.php
> 
> To-do list:
> - Add zooming, territory names to map.
> ...




This is wonderful work GP , far better than anything I could have done. 



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Seconded.
> 
> I like the way that little bit of Pomarji mountain range looks like it's eating the Theocracy of the Pale.




How prophetic (?) .




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Holy mackeral!  Yes!  That is a map we can work with!
> 
> I claimed the Drow of the Flanaess only.  Not the Drow of the whole Oerik continent.  This assumes Serpenteye allows it.
> The drow do not hold any surface areas, as far as I know, officially.
> ...





But the Drow are famous for their martial skill, their powerful wizards and clerics and their deadly assassins. They are a people honed to perfection by millennia of constant ruthless struggle. The weak and the stupid, and their weak and stupid genes, cannot survive in Drow society. The Drow are a low-ecl race, but they have survived and thrived in an environment filled with dangerous creatures. They have been standing toe to toe with Illithids and Aboliths and Beholders and have still been able to build great cities filed with beautiful art and elaborate culture. There are not many of them, but the Drow are feared for a reason.  

The Sea Princes... meh... not so much. Skilled sailors, and good enough with a blade, but they are no more powerful per capita than any other human nation.




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I would recommend that whoever claims the Kevellond League ALSO get the Baklunish nations of Zeif, Ekbir, Tusmit, Ket, Yecha, Ull, the Paynims, and the Dry Steppes (the Spirit Empire of Garnak and Istivar in the 3rd IR) which was the Baklunish Confederation in the 3rd IR.
> And, if that is not enticement enough to play the greatly threatened good and neutral nations, also give that player Nyrond, the Duchy and County of Urnst, the Iron League, and Sunndi.




I'm not sure that's the best solution. The faction in question would either become the target of everyone's ambitions and carved up in the first turn or he would become the protagonist and one-and-only hero of the IR with the spotlight on him and all the other Good and Neutral players relegated to becoming side-kicks.
The first scenario is the most likely one. Someone that powerful will attract the fear, loathing and envy of everyone, and he'd not be powerful enough to fight a war against most of his neigbours.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> If 2 or 3 players claim these factions, they may end up being forced allies from the start.  If I was in their position, I would definitely ally with the other good players!  Thus, again we would effectively have one great coalition of countries, albeit played by a couple of different players.
> 
> Such a unity of nations, whether run by one player or several players attempting to survive together in a harsh world, might be a match for the evil powers on the board.  (Some harsh diplomacy might work too, as in the IC version of the following:  The first power to attack ANY of our nations gets it.  See?  We don't care if the other evil powers later triumph:  we will make certain that YOUR power is crushed.  So stay smart, stay alive, and leave us alone!)




That would be a better solution, though I would never force an alliance on the players it might well be in their best interest to forge a strong alliance. Instead of one overpowered faction they would be three players working together, no more powerful on their own than the other major factions but a superpower together. They would be feared (should be feared) but won't be as envied and loathed.

The final alternative is that I play them as three different NPC factions. They would be weaker that way, both since I intend to play them subjectively and because they would then be the main power-bases of the PC Infiltrator organizations in the IR. Which would have the side-effect of giving those organizations a stake in defending the factions.


----------



## James Heard (Dec 3, 2004)

Hrm. Maybe I could get a list of the unclaimed reaches/powers then? I don't have a clue about any powers "off the map" as it were and it looks like most of the rest of the map has been claimed? Maybe the map can be made to show unclaimed areas somehow? Gah.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Dec 3, 2004)

Wait a second!  I have a MUCH better idea for what faction I want, infinitely more devious and entertaining than another bunch of generic apocalyptic yahoos.

I want to be Eli Tomorast and the Seekers, along with House Maure.

BAM.  There it is!


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 3, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Hey there, Serpenteye.  Welcome back.  And cheers to your 5th IR.




Cheers to you Edena  Thanks, it's great to have you here.



			
				Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Welcome back Serpenteye.




Thanks . I can't believe how much has happened here while I've been gone. It is wonderful to see that so many new players have joined us.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> *burp* Oh, sorry.
> 
> Welcome back, Serpenteye!




Thanks Knight Otu. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Well, let me work out just what it is my faction wants and can do.
> 
> In combat, our thaumaturgists can conjure mad elementals to do our bidding, and our doom-dreamers can breathe oblivion and render you in to Unbeing.
> 
> ...




Your Leader might be uncreative, but you're certainly not . 
Nice.



			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> Hrm. Maybe I could get a list of the unclaimed reaches/powers then? I don't have a clue about any powers "off the map" as it were and it looks like most of the rest of the map has been claimed? Maybe the map can be made to show unclaimed areas somehow? Gah.




Hmm, let's see iIrc. 

Unclaimed Factions:

The Suel Barbarians (minor faction)
Nyrond+Urnst-states (major faction)
The Kevellond League (Major faction) [M intentional]
The Bakluni Empire (Major faction)
The Celestial Imperium (Major faction)
The Ice Elves of the Adri Forest (medium faction)
The Iron League (minor faction)
Nippon (medium faction)
Erypt (medium faction)
The Tarquish Dominion and Empire (Major faction)
Lyrn (Major faction)
Ishtarland (major faction)
Elven Forest (major faction)
Various Realmspace factions (minor-medium factions)


Just off the top of my head.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 3, 2004)

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Wait a second!  I have a MUCH better idea for what faction I want, infinitely more devious and entertaining than another bunch of generic apocalyptic yahoos.
> 
> I want to be Eli Tomorast and the Seekers, along with House Maure.
> 
> BAM.  There it is!




The Who and the Whatnow?

Never heard of them, please fill me in.


----------



## The Forsaken One (Dec 3, 2004)

I'd like to claim:


> The Ice Elves are indeed around. They are few, but powerful and highly arcane. They do own an Artifact and have a small head-start in the Magic Armsrace. They are reluctant to ally with anyone who will not accept their rule, but they would make an interesting faction.




Along with the Troll Fens, Hempmonland (As a Troll Kingdom in a lush jungle and soaring mounting peaks in a fetid ocean of wavering green trees ) and possibly the sahuagin depending on how far im getting with my PL.

To be clear about this, I most likely will NOT be an evil faction. Fully good neither but most certainly not an evil faction like iuz or the drow.


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 3, 2004)

Hmmm, can't say I blame you considering the mass of questions you just replied to, but you missed me out. Can I officially add some Baatezu support to my faction?


----------



## Knight Otu (Dec 3, 2004)

I don't think he missed you. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Eluvan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 3, 2004)

*To Serpenteye and the others:  is this ok?*

Ok, since I am now the player of the Drow, let me try to further clarify what I'm playing.

  I am assuming that after the Sphere was closed, anarchy prevailed among the drow, with the loss of the supremacy of theocratic rule.
  Eclavdra had something up her sleeve.  Nobody knows what it was - an artifact, direct help from Iuz, direct help from another power, or perhaps a secret group of infiltrators of her own.
  Whatever it was Eclavdra had, she used it in combination with her political and speaking abilities (and when you have survived decades of dealing with Lolth and Iuz simultaneously, you are both a great politician and a great public speaker!!!) to talk 12 of the larger and more influential drow cities into an alliance.  Somehow, she cemented this alliance fairly solidly, creating in effect a drow nation.
  This drow nation of 12 cities (sorta the Drow Dirty Dozen, as it were) represents currently (unless another player claims more drow, or Serpenteye represents them as NPCs) the only organized drow in the Flanaess.  All the rest are at their usual bickering and infighting amongst themselves, and ineffective in every respect.

  How powerful are the Drow Dirty Dozen?  Well, as powerful as Serpenteye makes them!  Preferably, balanced with the powers played by the other players.  A standard major power.

  In this case, I am not trying to play a nebulous power (such as the Black Brotherhood is.)  
  I wanted my Power to be on the map, visible to all.  The Drow Dirty Dozen might indeed have a nexus of tunnels through which they can interact with each other, running all underneath the Flanaess, but their primary strength is in the twelve cities in question.
  In other words, if you wipe out the Dirty Dozen, you effectively wipe out the drow!

  The Drow Dozen have gone to the surface NEAR (see below) where their cities lay Below, and have established local control, building secret fortresses on the surface to hold this new frontier. 

  I choose the locations so as to make my power as annoying as possible:  a threat to all, and threatened by all.

http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-edit.php

  And yes, I think I messed up the map.  Ick.  Took an hour finding those places even knowing what I do of Flanaess geography.  Nuts.
  I had to substitute.  I wanted small places, since that is all the drow could control at first.  Oftentimes the map would not allow me to take a small place where the drow were, so I went to a small place nearby.

  Here is a list of the places where I wanted the drow to be, and where I put them due to the map restrictions (what I'm claiming, in effect.)

  1:  A small part of the Yatil Mountains (I took the Dawn Mounds)
  2:  A part of the Dim Forest (I took the West Dim Forest)
  3:  A part of the Jotens (I took the Little Hills)
  4:  A small part of the lower Hellfurnaces (I took Jerlea Bay.)
  5:  A small part of the Bandit Kingdoms (I took the Tangles)
  6:  A small part of the Lortmils bordering Celene (I took Celene Hills)
  7:  A small part of the Abbor Alz (I took the West Gnatmarch)
  8:  A part of the Onnwal Headlands (I took the Onnwal Headlands)
  9:  Densac Isle (I took Densac Isle)
  10:  A small part of the western Griff Mountains (I took Hraak Forest)
  11:  A small part of eastern Adri Forest (I took Edgefield)
  12:  A part of the Glorioles (I took the Hestmark Peaks.)

  These are the Drow Dirty Dozen.

  Some amendments to the above:

  1:  The drow city is under the northern Yatils.  A remote point in the Dawn Mounds is their chosen point of egress to the surface world.  On the surface, the drow control only a part of the Dawn Mounds, staying clear of Exag and the Perrenlander settlements.
  2:  The drow city is under the Barrier Peaks.  A point well within the Dim Forest is their point of egress.  On the surface, the drow hold the western Dim Forest as shown on the map.
  3:  The drow city is under the Jotens, is Eclavdra's home city (E. Cinlu), and is the capital city of the new drow nation.  A little known cave in the Little Hills is their point of egress. On the surface, the drow control only a part of the Little Hills, staying clear of Longspear, and the Sterich and Yeomanry settlements.
  4:  The drow city is under the Hellfurnaces, and Jerlea Bay is their point of egress.  On the surface, the drow hold Jerlea Bay as shown on the map.
  5:  The drow city is under the Tangles.  The central Tangles is their point of egress.  On the surface, the drow hold the Tangles as shown on the map (they think of it as part of the Fellreev, for some reason.)
  6:  The drow city is under central Celene.  Somewhere in the Celene Hills is their point of egress.  On the surface, the drow hold the Celene Hills as shown on the map.
  7:  The drow city is under the Abbor Alz.  Somewhere in the West Gnatmarch is their point of egress.  On the surface, the drow hold only a part of the West Gnatmarch next to the Abbor Alz.
  8:  The drow city is under the Onnwall Headlands.  Their point of egress is the western Onnwall Headlands.  On the surface, the drow control only a part of the Onnwall Headlands, where they have driven the native dwarves, gnomes and others out.
  9:  The drow city is actually under the western Tilvanot Peninsula.  Their point of egress is central Denzac Isle.  On the surface, the drow hold Denzac Isle as shown on the map.
  10:  The drow city is under the western Griff Mountains.  Their point of egress is in the eastern Hraak Forest.  On the surface, the drow hold only the eastern, inner part of Hraak Forest.
  11:  The drow city is under central eastern Adri Forest.  Their point of egress is the eastern edge of Adri Forest.  On the surface, the drow hold a tiny piece of eastern Adri Forest, staying clear of North Province and the city of Edgefield.
  12:  The drow city is under the Glorioles.  Their point of egress is somewhere in the Glorioles.  On the surface, they hold only a part of the Glorioles.

  Again:

http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-edit.php


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Dec 3, 2004)

*Respones.*

Serpenteye:  
Um, nice to have You around.   I was slightly _worried_ that my plans of world domination would went trough the window.

Great to have You around, and all. This dog, who ate Your computer, even don't know what terrible fate awaits it in the afterlife, Iuz could be patient.   

I'm so relived that I couldn't pull myslef into proper mood to play insane megalomaniac Iuz, properly. Apologises to everyone. 

And ... just to clear everything, Edena's way of expressing Eclavdra's loathing of Iuz and all what he represents is so beautiful that I was overjoyed. Worst is ... that he knows that she, in fact, loathes him with every nice honeyed word. Isn't it brilliant ? But Drow need Iuz's support ... wich other deity present on Oerth would ever help them, except Tharizdun ? Is his avatar still trapped on Oerth ? Is Iggwilv around ? And I'm going to change Iuz. Again.   

Now his entry states that he have 20 HD of outsider, 20 lvl's of Cleric, 10 lvl's of Assasin.

I will threw out of the window all 20 outsider HD, instead take 6 lvl's of Epic Cleric, 10 lvl's of Epic Assasin and a Half-Fiend template. Wich have LA +4.

So now Iuz is human half-fiend 26 lvl Cleric, and 20 lvl Assasin. And demigod.  

Besides ... Iuz's only possesion is Anarchic, Unholy Greatsword +3.

And I'm intending on creating this huge alliance. For ... mutual benefit. Iuz have some experience in _maitaining_ various alliances.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 3, 2004)

(chuckles at the post above, but doesn't say a thing ... )


----------



## James Heard (Dec 3, 2004)

Ok, I've thought and done some more research and here's what I've come up with which, admittedly, is based upon not knowing a damned thing about the regions and influences described other than some sketchy bits on Canonfire and a map.

I'd like to take over the nations of the Mare Mysticum: the Elven Lands, Elvanian Forest, and Kingdoms of the Marches. I'm only supposing that those areas are culturally similar. A nation of elven warriors and mystics, with a corresponding nation of "Marchwards" of half-elven descent ruling the kingdoms along the northern borders of  the Empire of Lynn, the nations of the Mare Mysticum are sparsely inhabited but keenly edged in power. Not a sea power thanks to the powerful storms which rise from the Mare and protect their shores from the trepidations of the Tharquish and Fireland, the Mysticum alliance still maintains a discreet and relatively unnoticed trade network with far away lands thanks to a steady stream of pilgrims to its holy sites and the Celestial Empire's long standing agreement not to persecute those (usually well off) travellers. Indeed, the Mysticum Alliance would be isolated completely if it were not for those pilgrims and the presence of the Empire of Lynn to the south. 

Of course if there's another source contradicting this all a link would be appreciated?


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 3, 2004)

*The (mostly finished) Rules of the 5th IR*

The Turn

The IR is divided into turns. Each of them is three months long and roughly represents a season.
 At the beginning of each turn I request that you send me an E-Mail at ecaf99@hotmail.com where you let me know how you will allocate your power that turn. Tell me how many Power Points you put into Industrializing your respective provinces, how much you spend on Technology or Magic or how much you reserve for Infiltration or the Military. Let me know how you allocate your military PLs, if you upgrade your Regular armies to Elite and Your Elite armies to Epic. I need this information to know just how powerful you are going to be during the Turn.
When you and I know how your faction is going to invest its power for the Turn it's time for the game to begin.

If you do not send me an E-Mail before each Turn I'm going to allocate your power in a way that I think is in accordance with the nature of your faction in a way that I believe they would believe would benefit them. I do this for NPC-factions, but you may find that it is less than optimized for what you had in mind.

(note to self: polish and clarify)


Above all else the IR is a game about power. Power is, after all, the ability to affect the world around you. The object of the game is power and the means to the end is power. There are many different expressions of power. A brilliant speach or diplomatic negotiation can in the right circumstances guarantee your victory. Propaganda and manipulation are vital tools to control your own population, NPC-factions and even the other players. Role-playing is your most powerful tool to acheive true power. But there is much more to the game.

Industry, technology, war, magic, divinity and infiltration are the other tools at your disposal. They benefit your faction in different ways, and though you need not master them all they will all be relevant to the outcome of the game.


*Industry*

Industry is the backbone of the IR. The combined Industrial Capacity (IC) of your provinces determines how many Power Points you get to spend each season (3-month turn) of the game. The IC of the province itself is not reduced by this, but gives at the beginning of each turn yet more Power Points for you to spend. It represents the productive aspects of technology, your smithys, factories, farms, all the hard work of the vast majority of your population.  
The IC of a province is tied to three factors. 
*The amount of power you invest directly into the province at the beginning of each turn determines the maximum amount of IC the province will give you next season (And, cumulative with your future investments, the amount of IC it will give you in future turns). 
*1 power point invested gives you ½ points of IC*, 10 PP invested gives 5 IC, etc.
**The maximum level of Industrial Capacity in a province is limited by the population of the province multiplied with the tech-level of your faction divided by 200’000. * 

A province with a popluation of 600’000 inhabitants and a tech-level of 5 has a maximum IC of 15. A province with a population of 23’000’000 inhabitants and a tech-level of 20 has a maximum IC of 2300. (You still have to spend PPs to get the ICs) 


*Technology*

You all begin with a level of technology roughly equivalent to what Europe had the year 1500. In the prologue to the IR you were all given access to blue-prints, schematics and copies of more advanced technology but for now you lack the infrastructure required to manufacture most of the inventions. You know, or can rather easily find out, how to put this infrastructure together, how to manufacture the factories you need to make the components to make the factories to make the components to make the factories to make the components and the factories required to make a car or a tank, or an airplane. But doing all that takes time. Technology is complicated, but in the IR it’s rather simple.
You create the infrastructure needed to apply your technologies in increments, linearly, by spending Power Points. *You need to spend 50 PPs to advance your entire faction one level in technology.* You have the option of spending more Power Points, as many as you like, and advance accordingly.  The levels of technology are equivalent to the European (and, when later applicable to the North American) level of technology according to the following table;

1: 1500
2: 1600
3: 1650
4: 1700
5: 1725
6: 1750
7: 1775
8: 1800
9: 1810
10: 1820
11: 1830
12: 1840
13: 1850
14: 1860
15: 1870
16: 1880
17: 1885
18: 1890
19: 1895
20: 1900
21: 1905
22: 1910
23: 1915
24: 1920
25: 1925
26: 1930
27: 1935
28: 1940
29: 1942
30: 1944
31: 1946
etc.

Every 4th level of technology all your military units (except for militia after level 4) gains an increase of their attack and defence-values by +1 and +1. The strategic mobility of your units increases gradually, but this is a minor effect compared to magic. Technology also has an impact on your maximal industrial capacity.


*Population*

Each territory has a population that functions as the labour-force of your economy and the recruitment-pool of your army. A territory without population is of very limited use to anyone. 


*War*

War is the continuation of diplomacy with other means. If you can’t get what you want by talking to your fellow faction-leader don’t be afraid to beat them up until they surrender. Killing is the easiest thing in the word, it’s staying alive that’s difficult.

Conventional warfare is decided by the roll of a die. A number of factors can affect the outcome, but at its heart the system is random. *First I roll one d6 for the attacker, then for the defender.* If the attackers modified roll is higher than the defenders the attacker damages the defender. If the attacker and the defender have as many Power Levels in the battle (the base measure of military strength) the attacker inflicts a damage on the defender of 1/10th of the defenders original strength in the battle. *If the attackers are more numerous than the defenders (has more PLs in the battle) they will inflict damage in proportion to their relative numbers.* If he’s 1,5 times as numerous he’ll inflict 1,5 times as much damage as if the numbers were equal. 

When I have rolled for the attacker I will then make the same rolls for the defender. *The defender will then become the attacker and his current strength will be used for calculating damage.* And so it continues, back and forth, until either side has been defeated. 

There are four different categories of armies; Militia, Regular, Elite and Epic Armies.

* *Militia* is recruited directly out of your common population. They are 1-3 level characters of NPC classes, barely trained, nearly useless individually, but in great enough numbers they can be a terrible threat. Militia can be conscripted or recruited for no direct cost. You don’t have to pay any Power Points to create Militia armies, and they are the one kind of army you can raise after the beginning of a Turn. *Up to 25% of all of the population in a province can be turned into militia at the beginning of a Turn, up to 10% of the population can be mobilized when the Turn has already begun.*
 One PL of Militia is equivalent to 10’000 individuals. *Militia attacks with a modifier of –4 and defends with a modifier of –3.* *They do not benefit from improvements in technology beyond lvl 4 in the Technological Armsrace* (1700) (they are simply too many for you to be able to equip them with quality weapons). 
*Militia PLs can be demobilized at the beginning/end of a round and the surviving warriors can be put back into the industrial economy.*

**Regular* armies are your usual professional soldiers. They have adequate training and equipment and are PC-classes and monsters of levels 2-6. At the beginning of the game they may be vulnerable against hordes of militia but they will later be able to sweep them aside with ease. *One PL of regular armies costs 1 Power Point to create. They attack and defend with a modifier of +0/+0 and they benefit fully from improvements in technology.
Regular PLs can be demobilized at the beginning/end of a round and the surviving warriors can be put back into the industrial economy.* You then regain all the Power Points you spent on creating the surviving Regular PLs. 

**Elite* armies are experienced and educated soldiers, or big and scary monsters, of levels 7 to 16. They are deadly opponents who benefit fully both from improvements in technology and from advancement in the Magical Armsrace. *They can only be recruited from the ranks of your Regular armies (they need XPs, you know), at a cost of 10 Regular PLs for one Elite PL. They attack with a modifier of +4 and defend with a modifier of +3. 
They, as well as Epic PLs, also have complete strategical mobility; they can Teleport all over the planet whereas Regular and Militia PLs have to travel by mundane means.
Elite armies cannot be demobilized.*

**Epic* armies, or more appropriately individials, are the toughest, most skilled combatants on the planet. Your PCs are all Epic, but few others are in the beginning of the game. They are nearly untouchable by Regular PLs and can slaughter Militia without concern. They are as far above Elites as the Elites are above the Regulars. *They are the only ones who can research the Higher Magics in the Magical Armsrace and they benefit fully from both Magic and Technology* (though Technology is less significant for them than for the lesser catagories of PL).
*Epic PLs can only be recruited from your Elite armies, at a cost of 10 Elite PLs for 1 Epic PL.* In other words 1 Elite PL is as expensive as 100 regular PLs, but they may very well be much more valuable than that depending on your play-style. *They attack with a modifier of +8 and defend with a modifier of +7.
Epic armies cannot be demobilized.*

*Other Modifiers:* 
**Technology* gives an equal bonus to all units (except for militia after level 4) of +1 for every four levels in the technological armsrace. These bonuses are cumulative.

*A faction that has access to a significant degree of *Clerical or Druidic magic* gets a modifier of +1 to defence for Militia, Regular and Elite PLs, and a modifier of +2 to Epic PLs.

*A faction that has access to *10th level magic * gains a bonus of +2 to attack and defence for its Elite armies and a bonus of +4 to attack and defence for its Epic armies.

*A faction that has access to *11th level magic * gains a bonus of +4 to attack and defence for its Elite armies and a bonus of +8 to attack and defence for its Epic armies.

*A faction that has access to *12th level magic * gains a bonus of +8 to attack and defence for its Elite armies and a bonus of +16 to attack and defence for its Epic armies.

*A faction that has access to *13th level magic* gains a bonus of +16 to attack and defence for its Elite armies and a bonus of +32 to attack and defence for its Epic armies.

*A faction that has a *Demi-Deity * gains a bonus of +1 to defence and attack for all its PLs.
*A character that is a *Demi-Deity * gains a personal bonus of +2 to defence and attack.

*A faction that has a *Lesser Deity * gains a bonus of +2 to defence and attack for all its PLs.
*A character that is a *Lesser Deity * gains a personal bonus of +4 to defence and attack.

*A faction that has an *Intermediate Deity* gains a bonus of +4 to defence and attack for all its PLs.
*A character that is an *Intermediate Deity* gains a personal bonus of +8 to defence and attack.

*A faction that has a *Greater Deity * gains a bonus of +8 to defence and attack for all its PLs.
*A character that is a *Greater Deity * gains a personal bonus of +16 to defence and attack.

*A faction that has an *Over-Deity * gains a bonus of +16 to defence and attack.for all its PLs.
*A character that is an *Over-Deity * gains a personal bonus of +32 to defence and attack.

*A unit in a *fortification* in a strongly defendable terrain gets a bonus of +1 to defence and attack against an enemy that doesn’t have access to 10th or higher-level magic.
*A unit in an extremely *strong fortification* gets a bonus of +3 to defence and attack against an enemy that doesn’t have access to 10th or higher-level magic.

*A *demoralized* army gets a modifier of –2 to defence and attack.
*A *routing* army gets a modifier of –4 to defence and cannot attack.

**Undead* PLs gains a bonus of +2 to defence against factions who do not have access to Clerical Magic from a deity of at least Lesser status.

**Undead* PLs gains a modifier of –2 to defence against factions who have access to Clerical Magic from a deity of at least Intermediate status.

*Units who fight in *Dead-Magic Zones * do not get any benefit from any kind of Magic, Elite PLs get a modifier of –2 to defence and attack and Epic PLs get a modifier of –4 to defence and attack.

Note: *Like bonuses do not stack. The bonuses for deities and High Magics are not cumulative.*


When an army faces an enemy it believes it cannot defeat it will usually become demoralized. It will fight at a reduced efficiency and will attempt to disengage and retreat from the battle. If it cannot retreat in order it will either rout (break apart), surrender, or fight to the death.


*Magic*

Magic is the most powerful force on Oerth. It can destroy whole continents, and remake them anew. It can transform your people into godlike beings, and turn your enemies into toads, or ash. Magic is however expensive, and harder to get than technology.
You all start out at the same level of magical knowledge. All your factions know 0 to 9th level arcane spells. Many factions also have an equivalent knowledge of Psionics of Druidic magic. Psionics have a similar role as arcane magics and the two are therefore technically interchangable with each other, a matter or role-playing of no concern to the rules. Druidic and Clerical magic is another matter, it gives bonuses to the defence of your units and increases your population-growth.
Though your factions begins at the same theoretical level the differences within your factions is immense, as was shown in the chapter about War. What will be discussed here is the race for Higher levels of Magic and the power of the Higher Level spells.

In the IR magic works a bit differently than in normal DnD for characters in the Epic levels. First of all, there are no Epic level spells. Secondly, spells can not be metamagicked above 9th level. Thirdly, there are 10th level spells, 11th level spells, 12th level spells and 13th level spells. These Higher levels of spells are not a mere linear continuation of the normal spell-levels. They are vastly more powerful than normal 0 to 9th level spells and they are not (usually) cast by individual spellcasters but by the combined magical skill and willpower of the casters of an entire faction.

No PC faction has the power to cast 10th level spells at the beginning of the IR, the ability has to be researched. Unfortunately magic of such extreme power and difficulty is beyond the grasp of most people, and only a handful of your most talented spellcasters can ever hope to master its secrets. Also, even more unfortunately, such magics are as fickle as they are powerful and dabbling in it before one has achieved true mastery often comes with a deadly price. *Only your Epic PLs can be used to research the Higher level spells, and they are permanently spent by doing so. No magic has the power to bring them back to life.*

Magic is researched in a similar way as technology, though both the price and the rewards are much higher. *After spending 50 points of Epic PLs in the Magic Armsrace your faction gains the power to cast 10th level spells. After spending a total of 200 Epic PLs in the Magic Armsrace you gain the power to cast 11th level spells. 12th level spellcasting costs 600 Epic PLs and you get 13th for 1000 Epic PLs.*

*The number of 10th, 11th 12th and 13th level spells that a faction can cast per turn depends on the amount of Epic PLs the faction has.* Naturally a greater number of casters enables a faction to cast a greater number of spells. The Spell-progression is as follows:

………………….10th lvl spells…11th lvl spells…12th lvl spells…13th lvl spells
20 Epic PL……..…1…………………..0……………………0………………….0
50 Epic PL……..…1…………………..0……………………0………………….0
80 Epic PL……..…2…………………..0……………………0………………….0
110 Epic PL……..2…………………..0……………………0………………….0
140 Epic PL……..3…………………..1……………………0………………….0
170 Epic PL……..3…………………..1……………………0………………….0
200 Epic PL……..4…………………..2……………………0………………….0
230 Epic PL……..4…………………..2……………………0………………….0
260 Epic PL……..5…………………..3……………………1………………….0
290 Epic PL……..5…………………..3……………………1………………….0
320 Epic PL……..6…………………..4……………………2………………….0
350 Epic PL……..6…………………..4……………………2………………….0
380 Epic PL……..7…………………..5……………………3………………….1
410 Epic PL……..7…………………..5……………………3………………….1
440 Epic PL……..8…………………..6……………………4………………….2
470 Epic PL……..8…………………..6……………………4………………….2
500 Epic PL……..9…………………..7……………………5………………….3

As you can see you need to spend a lot of Epic PLs to cast the Higher level spells, but you also have to have a lot of Epic PLs to cast them. It’s a trade-off between quantity and quality.

*What good are those spells anyway?*

Well, there are three aspects of the Higher level spells. Destructive, Defensive and Creative. 

*A 10th level spell can *destroy an area the size of Celene * utterly, wiping out all life (except for a few lucky Epic PLs) and destroying the very bedrock itself.

*It can *devastate an area the size of Nyrond*, destroying most life but leaving some stronger structures only badly damaged and most Epic PLs alive.  

*It can *affect an area the size of the Kevellond League*, causing widespread death and destruction but leaving most common people alive. 

*It can also counter-spell any of those destructive effects.

*A 10th level spell can permanently enhance a number of individuals. It can give them enhanced ability scores, natural, extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The lesser the number of people affacted the stronger the effect. *In game-terms it increases your Elite PL by 100.* 

**A 10th level spell can restore the damage caused by a 10th level spell in an area one degree smaller.* It can restore the damage to an area the size of Celene that was damaged by a spell that affected an area the size of Nyrond. (It’s always easier to destroy than to create). 


11th level spells are even more powerful (note to self: write more later).



*Infiltration*

Few rulers have complete and utter control over their countries, there’s always someone who’s either powerful enough to flaunt the laws openly or cunning enough to do so unnoticed. Either way, not all the production of a territory falls into the hands of the lawful ruler. 

Most territories in the IR have Partial Ownership. Usually it’s a minor NPC faction that keeps some of the revenue of the territory out of the ruler’s hands. It can be a thieves guild, a church, a merchant-guild or a powerful corporation. It can be a rebel-force, a mages guild, or just a bunch of unorganized disloyal citizens. In other cases the cause is more sinister, because you can also infiltrate and undermine each other.

The lowest level of Infiltration is Espionage. *To place a spy in a territory you have to spend 1/20th of the IC-value of the territory in PLs * as a one-time expense. Once you have placed a spy you will gain information about important occurrences in the territory or organization you have infiltrated. Your target has a small automatic chance to discover that there is a spy in their territory and if they don't find out they can nevertheless conduct a routine search for a cost of 1 PL. *Once they know there's a spy they have an option to find and remove it, for a cost of 1/20th of the IC-value of the territory.*

The next level of control gives you 5% of the IC-value of the territory every turn. This level, and every following level of control, entitles you to a share of the IC-output of the territory. *To establish control over a territory you have to make an oposed d20 roll. It costs 1/10th of the IC-value of the territory to establish control.*

It works the same way for the following levels of control. *The cost of establishing a 25% control over a territory is 1/4th of the IC-value of the territory, cumulative with the cost of the previous level. The cost of 50% is another 1/4th of the IC-value and 75% and 95% and 100% costs another 1/4 of the IC.* For every attempt to increase your control there’s an opposed roll of d20.

There are several *bonuses* that contributes to the effectiveness of Infiltration:

**The Infiltrator Faction-Trait* reduces the costs for all Infiltration attempts by half.

**The Alien Faction-Trait* gives a cumulative bonus of +5 to the opposed roll both for defending his influence and expanding it in a territory where he has a greater percentage of control than any other faction.

*The Faction that controls a *greater percentage* of a territory than any other faction in that territory has a cumulative bonus of +5 to the opposed roll both for defending his influence and expanding it.

*A Faction that knows *10th level spells * is immune to infiltration from factions with a lesser degree of magical knowledge and has a +2 to the opposed roll to expand their influence in a territory.

*A faction that knows *11th, 12th or 13th level spells * are immune to Infiltration from factions with a lesser degree of magical knowledge and has a +4, +6, and +8 bonus to the opposed roll to expand their influence in a territory.


Conquering a territory by war will randomly remove or reduce the influence of infiltrators in the territory and give the conqueror a controlling percentage of the territory. Depending on the conquerors general policy towards the conquered population new organizations may arise.


*Divinity*

Hard times are coming to Oerth. The World is under siege from both the outside and within, and noone knows when a violent death might descend upon them. In times like these many people will turn to the Gods, crying out for help, for salvation. But the Gods will not hear them, for the Gods are gone.
Will the power of the faith of the people of Oerth be spilled away in desperation and fear or will new Deities arise to give succor to mortal man's weakness? The people will surely need Gods to look after them in this time of crisis. There is power to be had for those who are strong enough to ascend. 

*There are no hard-coded rules for attaining Divinity, but the people tend to love a winner. Be successful, be charismatic, fulfill the spiritual needs of your population and chances are they will begin to worship you as a God.*


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 3, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Serpenteye:
> Um, nice to have You around.   I was slightly _worried_ that my plans of world domination would went trough the window.
> 
> Great to have You around, and all. This dog, who ate Your computer, even don't know what terrible fate awaits it in the afterlife, Iuz could be patient.
> ...




Aww , I'm sorry. Really, I am. 




			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> And ... just to clear everything, Edena's way of expressing Eclavdra's loathing of Iuz and all what he represents is so beautiful that I was overjoyed. Worst is ... that he knows that she, in fact, loathes him with every nice honeyed word. Isn't it brilliant ? But Drow need Iuz's support ... wich other deity present on Oerth would ever help them, except Tharizdun ? Is his avatar still trapped on Oerth ? Is Iggwilv around ? And I'm going to change Iuz. Again.
> 
> Now his entry states that he have 20 HD of outsider, 20 lvl's of Cleric, 10 lvl's of Assasin.
> 
> ...





That is wise, an alliance will make you stronger. Not all evil alliances end with a knife in the back. Even I was loyal to Mr Draco until the very end of the 3rd IR and I'm the one with the dirtiest record in that game. 




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Ok, since I am now the player of the Drow, let me try to further clarify what I'm playing.
> 
> I am assuming that after the Sphere was closed, anarchy prevailed among the drow, with the loss of the supremacy of theocratic rule.
> Eclavdra had something up her sleeve.  Nobody knows what it was - an artifact, direct help from Iuz, direct help from another power, or perhaps a secret group of infiltrators of her own.
> ...




Looks great .
This is going to annoy a great deal of people who want their territory looking nice and unbroken on the map. It should be a lot of fun 

I won't take any PL or IC away from anyone who's territory has been violated, since the areas in question are small and remote there's no direct negative effect for anyone.



			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> Ok, I've thought and done some more research and here's what I've come up with which, admittedly, is based upon not knowing a damned thing about the regions and influences described other than some sketchy bits on Canonfire and a map.
> 
> I'd like to take over the nations of the Mare Mysticum: the Elven Lands, Elvanian Forest, and Kingdoms of the Marches. I'm only supposing that those areas are culturally similar. A nation of elven warriors and mystics, with a corresponding nation of "Marchwards" of half-elven descent ruling the kingdoms along the northern borders of  the Empire of Lynn, the nations of the Mare Mysticum are sparsely inhabited but keenly edged in power. Not a sea power thanks to the powerful storms which rise from the Mare and protect their shores from the trepidations of the Tharquish and Fireland, the Mysticum alliance still maintains a discreet and relatively unnoticed trade network with far away lands thanks to a steady stream of pilgrims to its holy sites and the Celestial Empire's long standing agreement not to persecute those (usually well off) travellers. Indeed, the Mysticum Alliance would be isolated completely if it were not for those pilgrims and the presence of the Empire of Lynn to the south.
> 
> Of course if there's another source contradicting this all a link would be appreciated?





It's good. In fact it's very good. Noone knows a damn about those regions, so we're free to make up whatever we want. There are advantages to that kind of freedom .

---

---

---

Btw, everyone, I'm not quite sure the rules are balanced, if technology is too cheap or infiltration too easy. I will probably be making some minor changes to the numbers before we begin the game and use Turn 1 as a trial period. The basic structure of the rules is set, but the numbers can still change a few times.
Note that most factions will gain a lot more IC in the beginning of this IR than what was gained in the 3rd. So don't worry that everything is more expensive now, worry if the expensiveness is unevenly balanced.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 3, 2004)

*To Serpenteye*

I do not have an e-mail.  I cannot currently obtain one.
  In order for me to participate in this IR, I must establish Private Messaging with you on Nothingland.
  My Screen Name on Nothingland is Edena_of_Neith, as it is here.  If you will PM me there one time, I can establish a link with you there, and Private Message you from there.  And thus I can communicate to you in private what my power is doing.
  That is currently the only way I can privately communicate.
  Could you PM me on Nothingland?  Do you have the e-mail for that message board?

  Edena_of_Neith


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 3, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I do not have an e-mail.  I cannot currently obtain one.
> In order for me to participate in this IR, I must establish Private Messaging with you on Nothingland.
> My Screen Name on Nothingland is Edena_of_Neith, as it is here.  If you will PM me there one time, I can establish a link with you there, and Private Message you from there.  And thus I can communicate to you in private what my power is doing.
> That is currently the only way I can privately communicate.
> ...




You can't even use on-line E-mail providers, like Hotmail? Because you use an unconventional computer or operative system?

Of course I'll PM you on Nothingland, (could you post a link there?) I'd prefer to keep all my correspondance in one place but that's a minor concern. Having you in the game is vastly more important. 


--
As a general rule, E-Mails are more convenient for me, but if anyone else is in a similar situation as Edena I'll do the same with you.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 3, 2004)

http://www.nothingland.com/index.php?

 I (rarely) go by my secondary screen name Ashardalon over there.


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## Serpenteye (Dec 3, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> http://www.nothingland.com/index.php?
> 
> I (rarely) go by my secondary screen name Ashardalon over there.




Thanks Knight Otu .

--
Eh, the Members-list has been disabled. How do I find Edena?


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## William Ronald (Dec 4, 2004)

*Count me in!!!*

As I am constantly commenting on everything, I have decided to join in.  For the moment, I will claim the Baklunish nations, including the Dry Steppes, the Plaines of the  Paynims, the Ullsprue Mountains, Ull, Zeif, Tusmit, Ket, Ekbir, the Janasib Islands, the Qayah-Bureis Islands, the Araphad Islands, the Tiger Nomades, the Wolf Nomads, and the Barrier Peaks.  Does the Spirit Empire of Garnak exist in this IR? If so, I would like to claim it.

As Gnomeworks and Mr. Draco have not posted a claim, I decided to keep the Kevellond League and the allies of Nyrond unclaimed.  Has anyone formally claimed the city of Greyhawk or the Bright Lands, home of Rary the Traitor. (Lawful evil archmage.)? These will be important territories.  Also the Ulek States, the Lortmils and many other areas remain unclaimed.

So, what will I do about this?  Elementary, my dear Serpenteye.  I will delve into my records to e-mail people from the first and second IRs.  Also, I will change my sig to create a link to this thread.  Maybe all of us should include a link to this thread in our sigs, so we can get more people here.

I will be back shortly after I e-mail to address my observation on some of the questions and issues that people have raised.  

Serpenteye, in order to use Private Messaging on Nutkinland, you need to register.  Then you can click private message and enter Edena_of_Neith.


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## William Ronald (Dec 4, 2004)

I will have to try to answer most of thequestions and related issues tomorrow, as I have to be somewhere in about an hour.  However, I will lend Edena a hand.   Eclavdra's home city of Erelhei-Cinlu is in the Vault of the Drow under the Hellfurnaces, and the Epic Level Handbook has a mention of a ome for her in the Crystalmists.  So, the Hellfurnaces and Crystalmists would be logical locations for drow cities and fit porevious World of Greyhawk descriptions.  Also, the giants still rule Geoff in the LGG, so you may want to claim that as a surface domain run by the drow and their allies.

I will be offline until tomorrow afternoon.  However, you can e-mail me at williamwronald@aol.com.

Serpenteye -- You might think of trying a recruiting thread over at Nutkinland. There are some people who have been in the IR over there.  I also did my mass e-mail of previous IR players.  Hopefully, some will show up.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

*To everyone in the 5th IR*

I will attempt to obtain an e-mail.
  I will do this as quickly as I can.  It will take a few days.
  IF I CANNOT CREATE AN E-MAIL, I WILL SAY SO.

  William, thank you for helping Serpenteye!  It is greatly appreciated!

  The City of Greyhawk and the Bright Lands, are still unclaimed.

  I am trying to be of assistance in this IR, appreciating what it like to run one.
  I have compiled a list of the Players similar to Rikandur's list, and will post it here for all to see.  I hope nobody is offended by this!  
  I am doing this merely to aid in clarity, and to clarify in my own mind who is playing what and who.  This is what I did in the 3rd IR.

  - - -

  THE 5TH IR

  Created and run by SERPENTEYE

  -

  GUILTY PUPPY'S 5TH IR MAP (in it's current guise)

http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-edit.php

  OTHER GREYHAWK/OERTH MAP URLS

Close-in maps:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/
Overview map:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd...eteflanaess.gif
Large-scale map:  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/gridgeo.gif
Large-scale map:  http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif
Large-scale map:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/oerthlarge.gif

Map links from William's Map and Other Campaign Resources Post (note that some links are broken)

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/wogmaps.html
Greyhawk Maps: http://www.thewatchman.de/spidersweb/oerik.htm
Oerth and Greyhawk maps:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/Campaigns/GreyhawkMaps/
Oerth map: http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif
Oerik Continent: http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/...p/supermap.html
World of Greyhawk Map: http://www.arrantdestiny.com/maps.htm
Greyhawk Maps: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/wogmaps.html
(One shows latitude.)
Living Greyhawk Maps: http://ca.geocities.com/kanisl/
World of Greyhawk Maps: http://talmeta.net/maps/wog.htm

  MAUDLIN'S FINAL MAP FROM THE 3RD IR

http://users.pandora.be/maudlin/Greyhawk.jpg


  PLAYERS AND THEIR INFORMATION

  ANABSTERCORIAN
  PC:   The Great and Terrible Mnemesi, Low-Epic (21-30) Half-Fiend Cleric with the Ontic Template created by Sepulchrave to describe Soneillon.  
  Powers:  The Cult of Tharizdun, the Cult of Elemental Evil
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  unknown

  OR:

  PC:  Eli Tomorast (also known as Eli the Demon-handed), Leader of the Seekers, neutral evil wizard, fiend-binder specialist
  Powers:  The Seekers (adventuring company), House Maure (home of the forsaken House Maure, a cabal of Warlocks descended from Suel refugees of the Rain of Colorless Fire) (Both groups are Infilitrator factions)
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  unknown

  OR BOTH

  -

  CREAMSTEAK
  PC:  Yugthulgon, Master of the Staff of Ancient Penumbra
  Powers:  Beholder Dominions (Dominion of the Poisoned Eye, Flesh Reborn, Consuming Eye), Illithid Dominions (The Collective Overminds), cults associated with the above, servitors, slaves, thralls, voidminds, enslaved abberations and undead, and allied psionic demons and undead.
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  None. _Based in the darkest coldest depths of the underdark._

  DEMON ATHIEST
  PC:  unknown
  Power:  The Shadow Guild (has the Infiltrator Trait)
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  unknown
  PC?s PL:  unknown
  PL:  unknown

  DEVILISH 
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  Acererak/Tomb of Horrors, Valley of the Mage, Blackmoor, the Cold Marshes
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  as above

  MR DRACO  (It is unclear if Mr. Draco is playing)
  PC:  unknown
  Power:  unknown
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  unknown

  EDENA OF NEITH
  PC:  Vesharess Eclavdra
  Power:  The Drow Dirty Dozen (12 drow cities united as a nation, led by the city of Erelhei-Cinlu in the Vault of the Drow), servitor races, assorted servitor monsters, assorted servitor undead
  Color on map:  Violet
  Territories on map:  Mounds of Dawn, West Dim Forest, Little Hills, Jerlea Shores, Tangles, Celene Hills, Western Gnatmarch, Onnwal Headlands, Denzac Isle, Hraak Forest, Edgefield, Hestmark Peaks - each represents a Province held by a nearby Underdark Drow City
  Vesharess Eclavdra?s PL:  unknown to me yet
  PL:  unknown to me yet

  ELUVAN
  PC:  unknown
  Power:  Shepherds in Darkness (secret organization with Infiltrator Trait, based in Greyhawk), unknown amount of Devil support
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  unknown

  FORSAKEN ONE
  PC:  Unknown
  Powers:  Troll/Sahuagin Druocracy, the Ice Elves of the Adri (?)
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  A large peninsula region unnamed off-map, unspecified waters both on and offmap, Hempmonaland, the Troll-Fens, the Adri Forest

  GNOMEWORKS (It is unclear if Gnomeworks is playing)
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  unknown
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  unknown

  GUILT PUPPY:  MAPMAKER OF THE 5TH IR
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  The Scarlet Brotherhood
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  as above

  JAMES HEARD
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  The Nations of the Mare Mysticum (the Elven Lands, Elvanian Forest, Kingdom of the Marches.), Marchwards (Half-elven nation on northern border of Empire of Lynn)
  Color on map:  Not applicable
  Territories on map:  Large off-map nations

  KNIGHT OTU
  PC:  unknown
  Powers  Cult of Ashardalon, the Great Kingdom, Northern Aerdi, United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Rel Astra, the Sea Barons
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  as above

  PAXUS ASCLEPIUS
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  The Pomarj, the Crystalmists, the Jotens, the Hellfurnaces, the Griff Mountains, the Raker Mountains, the Dreadwood
  Color on map:  Yellow
  Territories on map:  as above

  RIKANDUR AZEBOL
  PC:  Iuz the Old, Demigod, human half-fiend Cleric 26th level, Assassin 20th level  
  Powers:  The Empire of Iuz, the Horned Society, the Bandit Kingdoms, Tenh, Stonehold
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  as above

  THOMAS HOBBES
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  The Lendore Isles, Celene, the Church of Tritherion (The Alliance of ?Those Who Do Not Wish to be Eaten? or ?The Inedible League?    ), possible control of the Theocracy of the Pale
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  as above

  VENUS
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  Upper Khanate, Lower Khanate, Orcreich
  Color on map:  Not Applicable
  Territories on map:  All territories are off-map

  WILLIAM
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  The Baklunish Confederation (Zeif, Tusmit, Ekbir, Ket, Ull, the Plains of the Paynims, the Dry Steppes (Spirit Empire of Garnak and Istivar if Serpenteye allows it), the lands of the Tiger Nomads, the lands of the Wolf Nomads, the Ullsprue Mountains, the Barrier Peaks, the Janasib Islands, the Qayah-Bureis Islands, the Araphad Islands)
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  as above

  XAEL
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  Circle of Eight, Highfolk, the Vesve Forest, the Yatil Mountains
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  as above

  ZELDA THEMELIN
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  unknown
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  unknown


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Dec 4, 2004)

Ok, I'd like to join, if you can come up with some less tactical position, mostly characters. Or backing someone else up. 

If you want me that is.

ah, forget

E-mail: zelda@dlc.fi


----------



## Anabstercorian (Dec 4, 2004)

Who are Eli Tomorast, the Seekers, and House Maure, you may ask?

Let me tell you...

The Seekers are, simply put, an adventuring company.  A very large, very successful one!  Though they act under the official profession of 'antique dealers', 'historians of ancient ruins', and similarly scholarly titles, they are in truth more looters, explorers, and treasure hunters along the line of Indiana Jones.  Like Indi, however, they do have their scholarly streak - it's not uncommon for one of their member groups to spend some time exploring and reporting on a 'find' after it's been appropriately looted, delving in to the history and significance of it's contents.

Eli Tomorast is a member.  Recently, he became the leader.  This is a dangerous thing.

Eli Tomorast is a wizard, specializing in fiend-binding, known as Eli the Demon-handed for the fiendish grafts he has in place of hands.  He has long been studying the long-crumbled Maure Castle, the home of the forsaken House Maure, a cabal of Warlocks descended from Suel refugees of the Rain of Colorless Fire.  Recently he unearthed secrets there, secrets so potent he rocketed to the top of the Seekers hierarchy.  Though his rule is absolute, the Seekers as a whole remain more or less free to act as they will.  

Eli is Neutral/Neutral Evil.  His malevolence is passive - he seeks power for himself, and revenge against those who have wronged him, but his wisdom, intelligence, and charisma drive him to great deeds that inspire awe, terror, and admiration in those around him.

The Seekers and House Maure are an Infiltrator faction, with a focus on Elite/Epic PL as opposed to Standard PL.  If they manage to seize significant territory (as they may), this could change quickly.

*Eli Tomorast*
Wiz 22.  Artifacts: Tome of the Black Heart, Demonhands, Sword of the Ebon Flame

More information about Eli Tomorast, the Seekers, and House Maure can be found in Dungeon Magazine #112, the 30th anniversary issue.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

Hey there, Zelda.  Nice to see you!
  I want you in.  Yes!  By all means.

  A number of powers are unclaimed.  Back on the last page, Serpenteye lists them.  Some are formidable powers.  Check the map links in my long post above, to see where they are.

  And welcome back!  

  Edena_of_Neith


----------



## Creamsteak (Dec 4, 2004)

Hey Edena, it doesn't bother me, but some people don't want thier email addresses listed in a form that's as easy to read as that. I'd recommend, at the very least, replacing all @ with some series of symbols like "$##$" and replacing all of the dots with something entirely different like "*#*". If you have some kind of text editor other than a raw notepad, use control-f, then use find and replace to replace the symbols in the email addys or something.

Also, I accidently called the "Staff of Ancient Penumbra" the staff of Illsensine. My bad, but with my magical mod powers I'm editing it into your post.

- - - - -

In spirit of the usual epic clout of the characters in the IR:

The background for my faction is that the sudden absence of the dieties on Oerth (and the loss of the connection to Illsensine) resulted in a sudden break in the Illithids, thier slaves, and virtually the entire structure of society. My PC (Yugthulgon) is an amalgamation of three high "priests" of the illithids enclaves. By amalgamation, I mean that Yug'rig'noth (egoist), Thul'hur'mca (shaper), and the enslaver Istigon (telepath) were litterally bound to one single body. As such Yugthulgon has 12 tentacles instead of 4. He has 6 eyes instead of two. This aberrant emissary that was created to take control of the chaos is completely and totally nuts for what it's worth.

Yugthulgon (also called virtually any combination of the three original names at different times) killed perhaps 80% of the Mind Flayers on Oerth, mostly those of the three other psionic disciplines. However, he certainly made it a point to excercise his new power to destroy anyone with objections to his new rule. The combined Flayer-deaths, slave split off, and lack of a god to glue it together basically destroyed whatever empire they retained on Oerth.

Weakened, beaten, and otherwise crippled, Yugthulgon went in search of an artifact of his diety in order to perhaps revive some degree of unity (and end the slaughter of his own race). He recovered the Staff of Ancient Penumbra from its prison of over a thousand Githzerai monks, fists of Zouken, and illithid slayers. This made more enemies than one could have ever predicted.

So, following this, Yug united the remaining flayers (though at only 25% strength at best). In an effort that would be called blasphemy (and certainly was, resulting in some additional flayer deaths), Yug agreed to treat some of the "lesser" races like Beholders and certain demons/undead as equals.

Now, with allies in tow, Yug has quitely bided his time, watching as Technology is developed by the surface above. Yug firmly believes that technology serves some eldritch purpose which sealed out the gods, and possibly even magic and psionic power later. Because of this, Yug sees this "power" in a very negative way, and has slowly been building his armies of war to do two things: Subjugate those who were offered "equality" but rejected it, and to COMPLETELY destroy both the demons who brought the tech, and thier technology.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

I will erase the e-mails from the list altogether.
  I'll keep a private list for myself, but not post a public one.

  I'm really not sure what the etiquette is on e-mails.  So, instead of guessing, I'm removing the e-mails altogether.  I don't want to offend anyone.


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 4, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I don't think he missed you.




 Whoops... guess it was me who missed him. And I have much less of an excuse.    Sorry to be a bother...


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

*To Serpenteye*

Serpenteye, how long do we have until the start of the IR?


----------



## Airwhale (Dec 4, 2004)

Are you still accepting players? This seems *really* cool.


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 4, 2004)

Well, to make up for that little embarassment, here is some serious faction information:

 PC: *Nyrael*: Half-fiend Rogue 9/Telepath 20/Soul Eater 13

 The Shepherds at Twilight are an organisation steeped in mystery and shadow. In the highest corridors of power the name echoes here and there and is forgotten or dismissed as rumour before it dies away. On the streets and in the taverns of Greyhawk the name is whispered sometimes, something of an urban legend, a force with which to explain the inexplicable.

 Judging by this reputation, one could be forgiven for assuming that the Shepherds were an ancient organisation with a history spanning centuries and explaining many of the stranger events in Greyhawk's political continuum. Indeed, among those who know of the name at all, most believe the organisation to be exactly that. The truth is, however, the Shepherds have sprung up only very recently. Nyrael, the enigmatic figure at the top of their command chain and the driving force that keeps the group together by sheer force of personality and will, was first heard of in Oerth two years after the end of the Grehawk War.

 It is unclear how he made a niche for himself so quickly. Certainly, the instability that followed the War made it easier for an opportunistic and powerful figure to rise to prominence. Rumours circulated that he had an elite force of fiendish assassins and spies, and if they were founded then certainly some of his rapid success can be credited to them.

 Regardless of how he achieved it, however, the fact was that by the third year after his emergence in Greyhawk, Nyrael headed the most powerful and successful organisation of thieves, spies, assassins and brigands that most could ever remember there being. And then, he disappeared. It is not clear where he went. Wild rumours circulated - some said he was dead, assassinated by a rival. Some believed the stories of his fiendish associations and said he had finally been dragged to the Hells to make good on the diabolical oaths he must surely have made. Some said he had simply gone into hiding, trying to gain some advantage. Some even claimed that he had assassinated a major political figure and was even now impersonating him. 

 Regardless of the reliability of any of these rumours, Nyrael was never again seen in anything approaching the public eye. His name continued to be whispered here and there, but slowly people began to forget him. He finally began to reassert his influence recently, with the cataclysmic sealing off of Oerth and the devil-forged technology that began to creep its way into the world. 

 When he chose to make his presence felt once again, at least some of his activities during his long seeming activity would have been obvious to anybody able to penetrate the layers of obfuscation that cloak him. For when he did so, he did so with one of the most formidable societies ever seen on Oerth fully formed and under his complete control. Through subtle manipulations he had succeeded in attracting some of the most ambitious, talented, and cunning minds in Greyhawk to his banner and already the Shepherds have begun to make their presence felt, twisting the inevitable political machinations to their own unknown ends. 

 As of yet there is nothing to link Nyrael to the Shepherds. Even the Shepherds themselves, except for the very top ranks, do not know the nature of their leader. As for Nyrael's true motives, they are still unclear. Certainly he seems to wish for power, but perhaps more than that as well. His links to the Baatezu are becoming ever more apparent - he has even held an audience with his direct subordinates whilst flanked by Cornugon guards. His agenda is perhaps a Diabolical one then - but it seems odd that a being of his obvious power would totally subordinate himself. It seems likely that his own desires are somehow involved in his plans, and what form they might take is hard to guess.


----------



## Airwhale (Dec 4, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith,

I can give you a gmail invite.  I find gmail as handy as Eudora or MSoutlook, almost as good as pine, and it's free!  I'm even using an account there as my primary e-mail.  Let me know if you want one.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

*To Airwhale*

Hey there, Airwhale.
  There are openings still in the IR, and a number of powers, good and evil, still unclaimed.  Come on in!  

  I am attempting to set up my own e-mail account today.  If I'm successful, great.  If not, I may take you up on that offer!

  (Eclavdra reads the rules of the 5th IR, and groans, muttering something about the stupid surface races blowing up the Oerth.)


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 4, 2004)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> Well, to make up for that little embarassment, here is some serious faction information:
> 
> PC: *Nyrael*: Half-fiend Rogue 9/Telepath 20/Soul Eater 13
> 
> ...




 



			
				Airwhale said:
			
		

> Are you still accepting players? This seems *really* cool.




We have a lot of cool players . Sure I'm accepting more players. What faction do you want to play?




			
				Airwhale said:
			
		

> Edena_of_Neith,
> 
> I can give you a gmail invite.  I find gmail as handy as Eudora or MSoutlook, almost as good as pine, and it's free!  I'm even using an account there as my primary e-mail.  Let me know if you want one.




Thanks for helping Edena, Airwhale .


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 4, 2004)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> As I am constantly commenting on everything, I have decided to join in.  For the moment, I will claim the Baklunish nations, including the Dry Steppes, the Plaines of the  Paynims, the Ullsprue Mountains, Ull, Zeif, Tusmit, Ket, Ekbir, the Janasib Islands, the Qayah-Bureis Islands, the Araphad Islands, the Tiger Nomades, the Wolf Nomads, and the Barrier Peaks.  Does the Spirit Empire of Garnak exist in this IR? If so, I would like to claim it.




Splendid!  Welcome William Ronald to the 5th IR.

There is no Spirit Empire of Garnak in this IR (Remember that it arose as a reaction to the imminent return of Vecna in the 3rd IR. Vecna will return here too (as a plot-device for the beginning of the IR), but his actions will be quite different this time around.)



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> As Gnomeworks and Mr. Draco have not posted a claim, I decided to keep the Kevellond League and the allies of Nyrond unclaimed.  Has anyone formally claimed the city of Greyhawk or the Bright Lands, home of Rary the Traitor. (Lawful evil archmage.)? These will be important territories.  Also the Ulek States, the Lortmils and many other areas remain unclaimed.
> 
> So, what will I do about this?  Elementary, my dear Serpenteye.  I will delve into my records to e-mail people from the first and second IRs.  Also, I will change my sig to create a link to this thread.  Maybe all of us should include a link to this thread in our sigs, so we can get more people here.




The City of Greyhawk has been claimed (by Eluvan iIrc). Rary and the Bright Lands won't be terribly important, certainly not enough to form a faction on it's own.  
The Lortmils, Kevellond league and Greater Nyrond are a lot more important.

Great, bring in as many players as you want. Everyone's welcome. 




			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I will have to try to answer most of thequestions and related issues tomorrow, as I have to be somewhere in about an hour.  However, I will lend Edena a hand.   Eclavdra's home city of Erelhei-Cinlu is in the Vault of the Drow under the Hellfurnaces, and the Epic Level Handbook has a mention of a ome for her in the Crystalmists.  So, the Hellfurnaces and Crystalmists would be logical locations for drow cities and fit porevious World of Greyhawk descriptions.  Also, the giants still rule Geoff in the LGG, so you may want to claim that as a surface domain run by the drow and their allies.
> 
> I will be offline until tomorrow afternoon.  However, you can e-mail me at williamwronald@aol.com.
> 
> Serpenteye -- You might think of trying a recruiting thread over at Nutkinland. There are some people who have been in the IR over there.  I also did my mass e-mail of previous IR players.  Hopefully, some will show up.




Thanks for helping. 




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I will attempt to obtain an e-mail.
> I will do this as quickly as I can.  It will take a few days.
> IF I CANNOT CREATE AN E-MAIL, I WILL SAY SO.
> 
> William, thank you for helping Serpenteye!  It is greatly appreciated!




Hey, I appreciate it too! 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The City of Greyhawk and the Bright Lands, are still unclaimed.
> 
> I am trying to be of assistance in this IR, appreciating what it like to run one.
> I have compiled a list of the Players similar to Rikandur's list, and will post it here for all to see.  I hope nobody is offended by this!
> ...




Very good. You are all making this a lot easier for me. 




			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Ok, I'd like to join, if you can come up with some less tactical position, mostly characters. Or backing someone else up.
> 
> If you want me that is.
> 
> ...




Less tactical huh... Well, the smaller faactions will have a lot less paperwork, but there will still be tactical decisions to be made. Perhaps you would like to co-rule a faction with someone else, like I did with Mr Draco, and leave most of the hard choices to them? In my experience sharing your power did not make the game any easier, since it required a lot of discussion and cooperation, but if you settle for a background-role it could work for you.

If you do want to rule a faction by yourself and don't want to worry too much about tactics I'd suggest that you choose a faction in a peripheral location with few natural enemies. Most off-map powers fit that description.

Oh, and Welcome Zelda to the IR! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Who are Eli Tomorast, the Seekers, and House Maure, you may ask?
> 
> Let me tell you...
> 
> ...




Terrific! Now we have three Infiltrator organizations, Anabstercorian's, Demon_Atheist's and Eluvan's. A good amount, enough to make it interesting without overcrowding the niche. 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Hey there, Zelda.  Nice to see you!
> I want you in.  Yes!  By all means.
> 
> A number of powers are unclaimed.  Back on the last page, Serpenteye lists them.  Some are formidable powers.  Check the map links in my long post above, to see where they are.
> ...




Indeed. 




			
				Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Hey Edena, it doesn't bother me, but some people don't want thier email addresses listed in a form that's as easy to read as that. I'd recommend, at the very least, replacing all @ with some series of symbols like "$##$" and replacing all of the dots with something entirely different like "*#*". If you have some kind of text editor other than a raw notepad, use control-f, then use find and replace to replace the symbols in the email addys or something.
> 
> Also, I accidently called the "Staff of Ancient Penumbra" the staff of Illsensine. My bad, but with my magical mod powers I'm editing it into your post.
> 
> ...




Good old slimy, tentacly fun.  




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I will erase the e-mails from the list altogether.
> I'll keep a private list for myself, but not post a public one.
> 
> I'm really not sure what the etiquette is on e-mails.  So, instead of guessing, I'm removing the e-mails altogether.  I don't want to offend anyone.




Please send me a copy of that list when you get the means to do so. The players who don't mind having their E-mail adress posted to the boards can still be on the official list.



			
				Eluvan said:
			
		

> Whoops... guess it was me who missed him. And I have much less of an excuse.    Sorry to be a bother...




No bother, we all make mistakes... 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, how long do we have until the start of the IR?




Things seem to be moving along nicely. The rules are done (unless anyone could give me some feedback?), we have enough players (though we could always use more) and it seems like most of you have thought your factions trough very well.
What we need now is that all the players who have been accepted choose a faction for themselves, that I assign PLs and territorial IC and populations, and set the degrees of control you have in your various territories, that the maps of the Flannaes and Oerth are completed. When all of this is done I will post the prologue to the game and you'll send me your templates (power-allocation) for the 1st Turn while I make the templates for the major NPC-factions. Then I'll take a deep breath and begin the game.

I'm not setting a definate deadline for now, but expect the game to begin some time in the second half of the coming week. I'll try to give you your IC and PLs as soon as possible.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 4, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (Eclavdra reads the rules of the 5th IR, and groans, muttering something about the stupid surface races blowing up the Oerth.)




Do the rules seem balanced, Edena? Your input is especially valuable to me because of your experience DM-ing several games like this one. If something's not working it's best if I correct it now before it can cause damage to the game.
I like the rules, but I'm a huge egomaniac so my oppinion doesn't really count.


----------



## Knight Otu (Dec 4, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> The rules are done (unless anyone could give me some feedback?),



 Would artifacts (of any flavor) be considered Epic PL?
 As far as I understand, I'd need the regular PL at the start of the turn before recruiting an Elite PL out of them? (and the same a step above for Epic PL)
 To gain the ability to cast 11th level spells when I already can cast 10th, I have to sacrifice 150 Epic PL, correct?


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 4, 2004)

Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> As I mentioned, I've been working on a nice, updateable map for the game... It's still very much Work-in-Progress, but I thought I'd share the state of things, so you folks can tool around with it, make suggestions. http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-edit.php
> 
> To-do list:
> - Add zooming, territory names to map.
> ...




Again, this is great. Thank you very much for your help.
I would also like to post the populations and territorial ICs on the map (when I come up with them).


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 4, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Would artifacts (of any flavor) be considered Epic PL?
> As far as I understand, I'd need the regular PL at the start of the turn before recruiting an Elite PL out of them? (and the same a step above for Epic PL)
> To gain the ability to cast 11th level spells when I already can cast 10th, I have to sacrifice 150 Epic PL, correct?




All artifacts are considered Epic PL. It's the easiest way to handle them.
Yes, you need Regular PLs (PLs are the designation for your armed forces) to create Elite PLs and Elite to create Epic. You can create Elite PLs at the beginning of the Turn and use them the same Turn, though you can't use those same PLs to create Epic PLs the same turn (you have to wait 'till the next one.)
You are correct. You need to put 50 Elite PLs into magical research (which cost 500 Epic PLs, which cost 5000 Regular PLs) to get 10th level spells and 200 Elite PLs to get 11th level spells. When you have put PLs into magical research the points stay there, they are cumulative. The only way to wipe out the points is to utterly destroy the faction.

---

Thoughts about the balance between Magic and Technology:

It costs you the equivalent to 5000 ppts to get 10th level spells, giving you the ability to  blow up countries and giving your Elite and Epic units +2 and +4 to the attack and defense, as well as making you a lot better at Infiltration.

The Same 5000 ppts spent on Technology would give you a score in the Technological Armsrace of 100, giving all your Regular, Elite and Epic PLs a +25 to attack and defense...!...
(And increasing the potential IC of your territories)
That's too much, even if the technological army can still be blown to pieces by a 10th level spell they would be unbeatable in actual combat.

Suggestion for Fix: Double the cost of Technology and double the combat-bonuses of 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th level spells.

Is that a big enough change? Considering that the Tech-player will have nukes (damn, I need to make up rules for nukes)?


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

*To Serpenteye:  Questions (and comments) about the Rules*

Edena here.
  I only just finished throughly reading the rules.  I am unclear on quite a number of them, so I cannot say if they are balanced with one exception:

  I think the destructive power you assigned to 10th level spells, should go to 11th level spells instead.  I'm betting the Rain of Colorless Fire and the Invoked Devastation were 11th level, not 10th.
  Make it a bit more difficult to obtain the ability to instantly destroy an area the size of Nyrond.  Everyone will still want the power to do so, but they'll have to pay more for it:  and pay they will.

  Now, other than that I cannot tell yet.  I'm still confused about the rules.  I have a lot of questions.  This is my Questions about the Rules thread.  There will be this post, and then a More Questions post, and a More Questions post, and yet another More Questions post.
  And, after all, the players benefit from questions.  If someone is unclear on the rules at the start, and makes a big mistake, that would be unbalancing indeed!    (Heh, what?  I need only 5 PL to have 10th level spells!  Yeah!)


  Ok, using my PLs, I can:

  Build any number of militias (limited by my population) for free.
  Upgrade militias to Regular Armies for 1 PL.
  Upgrade Regular Armies to Elite Armies for 10 PLs.
  Create Epic Armies (small groups of individuals) out of Elite Armies for 100 PLs.

  But ...

  On Turn 1, I have NO Regular Armies to start with!
  How can I upgrade something I do not have?
  It would seem to me, that it would be impossible on Turn 1 to create Elite Armies, because no Regular Armies existed at the START of the Turn to upgrade!

  It would seem to me that one would HAVE to create Regular Armies on Turn 1, then Upgrade them to Elite Armies on Turn 2.

  And the same goes for Epic Armies.  How can you upgrade to Epic Armies, if you have no Elite Armies at the start of the Turn?!  You'd have to have those Elite Armies, to do ANY upgrades to Epic.

  Thus, if I created Regular Armies on Turn 1, I would have to wait until Turn 2 to upgrade them to Elite Armies.
  Then, on Turn THREE, I could upgrade my Elite Armies to Epic Armies.

  But, if I do not create Regular Armies on Turn 1, I CANNOT upgrade them to Elite Armies on Turn 2 because I do not have them!  

  See?

  So, being wise, I spend a number of PLs creating a LOT of Regular Armies on Turn 1.
  Then, also being wise, I spend a lot of PLs creating a LOT of Elite Armies on Turn 2.
  Then, ALSO being wise, I spend a lot of PLs creating Epic Armies out of my Elite Armies on Turn 3.

  - - - 

  And that brings me to my next question:

  I want to research 10th level magic, but only Epic PLs (that is the terminology you used in the rules, Serpenteye) can do such research, and the Epic PLs are lost in the research, you say.
  I'm GUESSING that this means I must create Epic Armies, and these Epic Armies must conduct the research, and that they are destroyed in the process.
  It costs 50 PL to successfully research 10th level magic, using Epic Armies (or, Epic PLs as you call them.)  Since a single Epic Army would count as 1 PL (right?), but it cost 1 + 10 + 100 PL to create in the first place ... that's 5 x 111 = 555 PL spent to successfully research 10th level magic.

  I have Eclavdra, and she is an Epic Army, I am presuming.  I do not know if she is worth 1 PL or more than 1 PL.
  But regardless of her PL value, I wouldn't want to sacrifice her life in order to research 10th level magic!
  Likewise, if I had an artifact or relic - which might (?) count for epic PLs, I wouldn't want to sacrifice those (at least, I don't think I would) in order to research 10th level magic!

  THEREFORE ...

  In order to research 10th level magic, I MUST create Regular Armies, then upgrade them to Elite Armies, then upgrade them to Epic Armies, then sacrifice the Epic Armies on a one army to 1 PL worth of 10th level magic research (50 PL needed for success) in order to obtain 10th level magic.
  And I MUST wait one turn to upgrade Regular Armies to Elite, and one turn to upgrade Elite Armies to Epic.

  So, being wise, I spend a LOT of PLs on Turn 1 to create a lot of Regular Armies.
  On Turn 2, I upgrade as many Regular Armies to Elite Armies as I can.
  On Turn 3, I upgrade as many Elite Armies to Epic Armies as I can.  And on Turn 3 - and NOT BEFORE Turn 3 - I can spend PLs (if I have them left over!) to conduct research on 10th level magic, sacrificing my Epic Armies in order to do so.
  I REFUSE to sacrifice Eclavdra.  Even if I did, her PL value is probably not 50, so I have done some research on 10th level magic, and wasted my only Epic Army (if Eclavdra counts as an Army) that I had.  Not a good idea, and I won't do it.

  - - -

  - - -

  - - -

  This is the impression I have gotten from the rules so far.  (I will have more questions on the rules later.)  

  This is how I THINK the rules work.

  Am I right?
  Am I wrong?

  If I am wrong, how exactly am I wrong?


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

I request at least another week before we start Turn 1.  This is a request.  Would that be ok, Serpenteye?

  People are still trying to join, people are still claiming powers, and I still have a lot of questions about the rules.  I'm betting others do also.

  Besides, I have to get myself an e-mail!


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 4, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Edena here.
> I only just finished throughly reading the rules.  I am unclear on quite a number of them, so I cannot say if they are balanced with one exception:
> 
> I think the destructive power you assigned to 10th level spells, should go to 11th level spells instead.  I'm betting the Rain of Colorless Fire and the Invoked Devastation were 11th level, not 10th.
> Make it a bit more difficult to obtain the ability to instantly destroy an area the size of Nyrond.  Everyone will still want the power to do so, but they'll have to pay more for it:  and pay they will.




Hmm, I think that's pretty comparable to the 10th level spells in the 3rd IR. Vecna completely destroyed an area the size of Celene in the big battle of Turn 3, wounding the very Oerth itself and causing the Red Plague. That's actually a more powerful effect than merely wiping out all life in an area the size of Celene (about equivalent to Germany(?)).

Getting 10th level spells is still quite expensive. See my comparison between magic and Tech in the post above yours.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Now, other than that I cannot tell yet.  I'm still confused about the rules.  I have a lot of questions.  This is my Questions about the Rules thread.  There will be this post, and then a More Questions post, and a More Questions post, and yet another More Questions post.
> And, after all, the players benefit from questions.  If someone is unclear on the rules at the start, and makes a big mistake, that would be unbalancing indeed!    (Heh, what?  I need only 5 PL to have 10th level spells!  Yeah!)
> 
> 
> ...




Oh, Sure you do! You all have Regular PLs, and Elite and Epic PLs at the beginning of the IR. I will assign them to you and you can spend them any way you like in your forst Template. No worry. Your countries have been around for a while, and are not simply created out of nothing on day one.

edit: No, you do not have to upgrade Militia to Regular PLs. You can create Regular armies directly out of your the Power Points you get trough your Indistrial Capacity or Infiltration.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> It would seem to me that one would HAVE to create Regular Armies on Turn 1, then Upgrade them to Elite Armies on Turn 2.
> 
> And the same goes for Epic Armies.  How can you upgrade to Epic Armies, if you have no Elite Armies at the start of the Turn?!  You'd have to have those Elite Armies, to do ANY upgrades to Epic.
> 
> ...




Not necessarily, it all depends on how you want to play your faction. You all have Regular Elite and Epic PLs at the beginning of the IR, you have quite a lot of them in fact.
 You can choose to direct your efforts singlemindedly towards the goal of getting 10th level spells and put every available resource into creating Epic PLs. That will give you a small but strong army capable of doing great harm to your enemies but not really conquering much populated land (Until you start to burn that army to gain 10th level spells, a sacrifice some of them might have problems with . It's not always lethal for the Epic level characters but it's always debilitating to say the least.).
 It will also ensure that your Industrial Capacity will be smaller than some other players and that your total Growth-rate will be lower. You will be small, but strong. Time, and the other player's growth, will be against you, but if you do manage to get 10th level spells before anyone else it might very well be worth the sacrifice.

If you instead direct your efforts towards Technology, and spend the points you don't put into defence in increasing the IC of your territories and climbing in the Technological Arms-race you will get a strong Regular (or Elite, there are advantages to that strategy too) Army that will be able of absolutely kicking ass on the battlefield but will be quite vulnerable to being annihilated by 10th level spells. Since you will probably have chosen to spend some points on Indistrialization your PL-Growth will be greater than the Magic-Users in the long term (under peaceful conditions).




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> And that brings me to my next question:
> 
> I want to research 10th level magic, but only Epic PLs (that is the terminology you used in the rules, Serpenteye) can do such research, and the Epic PLs are lost in the research, you say.
> I'm GUESSING that this means I must create Epic Armies, and these Epic Armies must conduct the research, and that they are destroyed in the process.
> It costs 50 PL to successfully research 10th level magic, using Epic Armies (or, Epic PLs as you call them.)  Since a single Epic Army would count as 1 PL (right?), but it cost 1 + 10 + 100 PL to create in the first place ... that's 5 x 111 = 555 PL spent to successfully research 10th level magic.




Oh, nonono, it's not nearly that easy. One Epic PL costs the equivalent of 100 Regular PLs. You need 50 Epic PLs to get 10th level spells. 10th level spells will cost you 100x50=5000 Regular PLs=5000 PPts, quite a lot more.

Keep in mind that most factions will get a lot of IC, PPts and PLs, but the cost is still such that many factions will find it very very difficult to get 10th level magic.




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I have Eclavdra, and she is an Epic Army, I am presuming.  I do not know if she is worth 1 PL or more than 1 PL.
> But regardless of her PL value, I wouldn't want to sacrifice her life in order to research 10th level magic!
> Likewise, if I had an artifact or relic - which might (?) count for epic PLs, I wouldn't want to sacrifice those (at least, I don't think I would) in order to research 10th level magic!
> 
> ...





You have quite a lot of Regular, Elite and Epic PLs at the very beginning, though of course you might want to create even more of them in the T1-Template. 

Eclavdra, by herself without her artifact, might be worth 1 Epic PL (she's a character in the lower 20s).

You need Epic PLs to cast 10th level magic. In fact you need 20 Epic PLs to even cast 1 10th level spell per Turn (iIrc), if you have more PLs you can cast more spells, a consideration before you spend your PLs on getting 11th level spells later.




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> This is the impression I have gotten from the rules so far.  (I will have more questions on the rules later.)
> 
> This is how I THINK the rules work.
> 
> ...




Quite wrong, Edena. But I accept the full responsibility for that. If you have any more questions please ask away. It will not only help you, but everyone else as well (including myself).


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 4, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I request at least another week before we start Turn 1.  This is a request.  Would that be ok, Serpenteye?
> 
> People are still trying to join, people are still claiming powers, and I still have a lot of questions about the rules.  I'm betting others do also.
> 
> Besides, I have to get myself an e-mail!




I'll not start the game until everything is in place, and I don't want to stress anybody (or myself) overly.

Request granted.


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Dec 4, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> All artifacts are considered Epic PL. It's the easiest way to handle them.




Great ... then let's prepare for Iuz's "nuking" !  
And can I, as Eclavdra ... echem Edena suggests create in few turns an Artifact ? 100 regular PL's and ... Mu, Cha, Cha !  

I humbly remind everybody about existence of spell called "Apocalypse from the Sky."    



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Thoughts about the balance between Magic and Technology:
> It costs you the equivalent to 5000 ppts to get 10th level spells, giving you the ability to  blow up countries and giving your Elite and Epic units +2 and +4 to the attack and defense, as well as making you a lot better at Infiltration.
> The Same 5000 ppts spent on Technology would give you a score in the Technological Armsrace of 100, giving all your Regular, Elite and Epic PLs a +25 to attack and defense...!...
> (And increasing the potential IC of your territories)
> That's too much, even if the technological army can still be blown to pieces by a 10th level spell they would be unbeatable in actual combat.




I doubt. that would be ... technology from 80' ... And don't say that antinuclear bunkers couldn't surviwe some petty blasting from above. Besides ... even low lvl spells could devastate technologically advanced army of mortals/demons/whatever. Producing marvels of technology takes much more time than slinging spells that would destroy or stop production. Simple "heat metal" put strategically would disable even fully automatic factory of invicible T-1000. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Suggestion for Fix: Double the cost of Technology and double the combat-bonuses of 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th level spells.




It's Your IR, Serp. But ... just mebbi, can we change this whole thing with High Magic ? I wish that Acererak will discover "Rain of Colorless Fire" ! It is surely 12 or even 13 level of magic. Why just don't create spells ? I serve faithfully ith my help. Absolutely from samaritarian purpouses.    



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Is that a big enough change? Considering that the Tech-player will have nukes (damn, I need to make up rules for nukes)?




Nukes ? And what would You say about Infrasound Cannon ? Russians have them from old USSR ...  Imagine, there is village of enemy people ... You point at them, trucks set the Big Berta in right direction ... Your technicians, You etc. flee to safe distance. You push the button. After two seconds, You can send Your settlers to their new home. Warning them to clear this bloody goo from the ground. And plant new trees, grass, bring animals. Gossp claims that they used it to persuade something to the Chinese.

And nukes one can have just from about ... 35-40 Tech Level. Who need thermonuke, when good ol' atom bomb suffice. 

And Edena ... Devilish's PC is Acererak himself. Knight Otu's PC is bit overweighted but still deadly half-fiendish red dragon. My colour is graish blue ... As stated by Guilt Puppy. He should recive badge of honour for his efforts, as well as Edena. If they submit totally, Iuz might give it in person. 

And one more thing ... I think that everybody facing Vecna know the right word to spell ? I ... U ... Z.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 4, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Knight Otu's PC is bit overweighted but still deadly half-fiendish red dragon.



 I'm not overweighted - that's pure muscle. Souls don't have fat, you know?


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 4, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> I doubt. that would be ... technology from 80' ... And don't say that antinuclear bunkers couldn't surviwe some petty blasting from above. Besides ... even low lvl spells could devastate technologically advanced army of mortals/demons/whatever. Producing marvels of technology takes much more time than slinging spells that would destroy or stop production. Simple "heat metal" put strategically would disable even fully automatic factory of invicible T-1000.




But an army is pretty ineffectual sitting cooped up in a bunker all the time, and the moment they venture outside in concentrated force they will be vulnerable. 
True technological counters to magic (force-fields and whatever) are still far in the future.



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> It's Your IR, Serp. But ... just mebbi, can we change this whole thing with High Magic ? I wish that Acererak will discover "Rain of Colorless Fire" ! It is surely 12 or even 13 level of magic. Why just don't create spells ? I serve faithfully ith my help. Absolutely from samaritarian purpouses.




You can call your High Magic spells anything you like. The rules allow for role-playing, though they may seem cold and rigid.  when you get 10th level spells you (pending my approval) can create a variety of spells of that general level of power. They need not all be destructive, or direct.
The Rain of Colourless Fire would probably be a 12th level spell or perhaps several lower High Magic spells cast simultaneously in a pattern. It destroyed an area the size of the Kevellond league utterly and permanently, that fits into my rough hierarchy of spells.




			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Nukes ? And what would You say about Infrasound Cannon ? Russians have them from old USSR ...  Imagine, there is village of enemy people ... You point at them, trucks set the Big Berta in right direction ... Your technicians, You etc. flee to safe distance. You push the button. After two seconds, You can send Your settlers to their new home. Warning them to clear this bloody goo from the ground. And plant new trees, grass, bring animals. Gossp claims that they used it to persuade something to the Chinese.
> 
> And nukes one can have just from about ... 35-40 Tech Level. Who need thermonuke, when good ol' atom bomb suffice.




One of those big bad weapons that make High-Tech armies so very dangerous. That's what I'd say .


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Dec 4, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I'm not overweighted - that's pure muscle. Souls don't have fat, you know?




Souls ... Yes. But explain me one thing, why so many soul eating demons are so ... obese ?  

But Harpers ? They are like vermin in FR, and according to books and other pictures, Harperesses have "fat" in certain areas. 
And if they infected Oerth, Iuz save us, there was surely big amount of them.

Elistaree drowlings, bah, when all You do is sitting on Your four letters ang go barmy with delight about birdies, streams etc ... Imagine, Drow metabolism isn't created for such overdoses of endorfine ! Nor for sitting and getting fat from lack of adrenaline and hatred.

But surely, Ashardalon isn't overweighted with fat, sane dragons don't build more fat that it is neccesary for healthy letharg. And only short time before it.   

Serpenteye:
I still belive that Antimagic Field should protect from direct attack by magic. Even High Magic.  But I'm just being stubborn, so You could ignore it.   

How to increase my Demon population ? Can they breed normally ? Or I need Rebirth Pits. And safe demiplane to put them in. And I need a list of fiends in my service ... Rough numbers, and detailed description of Legion of The Black Death ! 

And how create Magic Items in IR ! I'm in need of some artifacts ... Tee Hee. I decided to transform my empire into something along the line with USSR. All preequisitives I have. And leader more charismatic and terrible than Stalin.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

*From Edena to Serpenteye:  Long article:  Unsolicited (?) attempt to help out*

This post is going to be 
difficult and messy.  Bear with me, Serpenteye.

  I am ... guessing ... that you are assigning PLs to each nation, like I did in the 3rd IR.
  For example:  Furyondy 10, Duchy of Ulek 3, Keoland 15, North Province 15, etc.

  That's a guess, and I'm basing the entire rest of this post on my guess being right.  I'm assuming that's how you're working it.

  In the 3rd IR, I divided the Flanaess up like a RISK or Axis and Allies map, and I had some big areas (like Furyondy) and some little areas (like the Duchy of Ulek.)  And I gave points (PLs, or Power Levels) to each one.

  Now ...

  In THIS IR, we have two separate situations.

  1:  We have a gigantic jigsaw puzzle of a map, with over a hundred pieces (or, areas.)  Unless you have a very good geographic understanding of the Flanaess (I know you and I do, Serpenteye, but not all the others are familiar with the geography) you probably couldn't name a lot of those jigsaw pieces.
  2:  We have a lot of off-map nations.  Many players currently do not even know these nations exist, much less where they are, or how to link to maps that show them.

  There is nothing that I can do to help the other players more than I have.
  To the players, I can only recommend they look at the map links, look at Greyhawk source material, ask questions via e-mail to other players (who just might know more about those countries and places), and otherwise do research on the subject of the Flanaess/Oerik/Oerth.  
  Also, the players who don't know might ask what a Crystal Sphere is, what Wildspace is, how many moons Oerth has, if there are other planets in the solar system, and so on.  Some players might be able to answer the questions.  (I don't remember the other worlds of Greyspace!)

  But getting back to you, Serpenteye:

  I don't know if this will be of any help, but here's what I'd do, or try to do - considering the complexity, I don't know if I could do it - to resolve problems I see:

  1.  I would establish what the PLs of the major nations of Oerth are.
  2.  I would look at that jigsaw map, and I'd assign PLs to each jigsaw piece as appropriate.  For example, Furyondy is broken up into about 5 pieces on that map.  If Furyondy had, say, a PL of 10, then I'd divide the 10 PL up among the 5 jigsaw pieces.  Ditto for every other nation (and jigsaw piece) on the map.
  3:  THEN I would consider the jigsaw pieces that are not a part of any country.  I would assign them PL values based on what I knew of them.  If I knew nothing of them, I would grant them a basic PL on the assumption that SOMETHING lives under every rock in this setting (and probably, not a something you'd want to meet!)  For example, take the desert that used to be the Suel Imperium:  it seems worthless, right?  But actually - just perhaps - colossal magical secrets lie under the desert sands, in the ruins of the ancient Suel Empire, and actually this chunk of real estate is actually worth a FORTUNE in PLs!
  4:  I would then deal with the off-map countries.  I would treat each of them as a single jigsaw piece, with a correspondingly higher PL.  After all, if it's the entire nation in one jigsaw piece, that jigsaw piece will both worth more than a jigsaw piece representing a fraction of Furyondy!  See?  If all of Erypt is one jigsaw piece, or Nippon, or Orcreich, or the Celestial Imperium, then certainly those off-map jigsaw pieces would be worth a lot more than a jigsaw piece representing a fifth of Furyondy!!
  5:  I would divide the oceans into arbitrary jigsaw pieces.  Not a pretty prospect, but I'd do it.  After all, the oceans are contested, and the undersea nations (Forsaken One's sahuagin nations, for example) have their own PLs.
  6:  Concerning Greyspace, I would - instead of dividing it into jigsaw pieces - would assign PLs to specific factions.  If the Scro have a warfleet in Greyspace, it would have a PL, and count as one 'jigsaw' piece.  Likewise for the Illithid Squid Ships, the Elven Imperial Armada, the Free Gith Mercenaries (not already a part of another power, like the Solistarim), and any other spelljamming groups.
  5:  If there are Astral or Ethereal Nations (such as the Githyanki and Githzerai) I would treat each of these as one 'jigsaw' piece.
  6:  If the IR ventures to Oerth's moon, Luna, I would treat the moon as having it's own separate nations and cultures, each a 'jigsaw' piece with it's own PL, and subject to conquest.  If this is too much work, then simply treat Luna as having - say - 10 or 20 'jigsaw' pieces that could be occupied, and which have a base PL each.  That way, when every player in the IR sends a conquering force to the moon, they get an automatic bonus for each 'jigsaw' piece they collect on the moon, and they can all fight over the moon as much as they please.
  7:  What goes for Luna, goes for the other planets (if you include them) in the system.

  That is how I'd do it.

  - - -

  Now ... if you use the system above, something else is going to become frightfully apparent.

  The question about Infiltration is:  do I infiltrate a SINGLE jigsaw piece of my opponent's territory (a 5th of Furyondy, one of the 12 drow cities, northwest Aerdi, the Tilvanot Jungle, etc.) or do I infiltrate the ENTIRE power being played by that player?
  I would recommend that Infiltration be of the ENTIRE power, and here's why:

  If I must send a spy to each and every jigsaw piece of one of the player's powers on-map, isn't this unfair to those off-map?
  After all, the off-map countries are single jigsaw pieces.  If I infiltrate Orcreich, or Nippon, Erypt, the Celestium Imperium, etc., I get to infiltrate the whole country at once, because it is one jigsaw piece!
  But if I try to infiltrate the powers on-map, I must infiltrate an endless number of little jigsaw pieces of their power, one at a time.  Thus taking forever to do to them what I could do instantly to an off-map power.

  Likewise, the numbers accounting will be a nightmare, if infiltration involves every one of those little jigsaw pieces.  You, the Arbiter of the IR, must arbitrate what percentage of EACH and EVERY piece I have infiltrated (that little piece was worth 2 PL, and I get 10% of that, which is 0.2 PL ... and multiply this by a 100 as many different players infiltrate a hundred little jigsaw pieces of nations.)  It's a nightmare!

  But ...

  If you infiltrate my ENTIRE power (including all conquests I have made) then accounting is made simple.  You take my combined PL, and the infiltrator gets his cut of that.
  This will DEFINITELY encourage infiltration!  Nothing like sending in spies, and taking over an enemy power from within!!
  And, needless to say, this will cause great consternation and alarm among all the powers, that it is so relatively EASY that an Infiltrator group can just walk in and take them over (witness the Scarlet Brotherhood's work in the Greyhawk Wars.)

  - - -

  I am still puzzling through the espionage rules.  I am confused about them.
  For some reason (don't ask why) I thought up the following rules, which I thought you might care to look at.  Perhaps there is an idea or two in there that would help with the 5th IR.  I don't know.  (goes on puzzling through the espionage rules.)  

  Defender, First Turn  

  Each and every Turn, the Defender may allocate PL to detecting the Attacker's spy, enabling a dice roll to detect the spy.  (1st Bidding War between the Attacker and the Defender.)
  The Defender MUST detect the Attacker's spy to proceed to ejection/nullification of the Attacker's spy.
  If the Defender discovered the Attacker's spy, he may spend PL to eject/nullify the Attacker's spy, enabling a dice roll to eject/nullify that spy (Second Bidding War between the Attacker and the Defender.)  This applies to all discovered spies.

  Defender, Second Turn:

  As above, and:

  If the Defender ejects/nullifies the Attacker's spy, any attempt at Corruption of the Defender's power by the Attacker is ruined, without need for a 3rd Bidding War.  However, if the Attacker has ALREADY effected Corruption on the Defender, ejecting/nullifying the Attacker's spy does not negate or affect the Corruption in any way.

  Defender, Third Turn:

  As above, and:

  The Defender may spend PL to lessen the Corruption of his power (levels of Corruption 1 through 5.)  This assumes the Attacker has already Corrupted the Defender's power:
  Level 1 Corruption gives the Attacker 10% of the Defender's PL.
  Level 2 Corruption gives the Attacker 25% of the Defender's PL.
  Level 3 Corruption gives the Attacker 50% of the Defender's PL.
  Level 4 Corruption gives the Attacker 75% of the Defender's PL.
  Level 5 Corruption gives the Attacker 90% of the Defender's PL.
  Level 6 Corruption gives the Attacker 100% of the Defender's PL, and it cannot be broken (the Defending Power is now a possession of the Attacker.)

  If the Defender succeeds in breaking the Corruption (levels 1 through 5, but not 6) then the Attacker loses 1 level of Corruption.  If at level 1 Corruption, the Attacker loses all Corruptive influence and must start over.
  This is resolved by dice.  PL spent by the Attacker to Corrupt is countered by PL spent by the Defender to break the Corruption.  This is known as the 3rd Bidding War between the Attacker and the Defender, and applies to all Corrupt/Break Corrupt attempts. 

  Defender, Fourth Turn:

  As above.  Etc.

  -

  Attacker, First Turn

   Each and every Turn, the Attacker may spend PL on implanting spies in the Defender's power (in as many Defending powers as desired.)
  Each and every Turn, the Attacker may allocate additional PL on protecting spies from detection by a Defending power, affecting the dice roll to detect the spy.  (1st Bidding War between the Attacker and the Defender.)
  Each and every Turn, the Attacker may allocate PL to prevent ejection/nullification of his spy, if the Defender has discovered that spy and is attempting to expel/nullify that spy, affecting the dice roll for expulsion/nullification (2nd Bidding War between the Attacker and the Defender.)
  The Attacker must successfully have his spy implanted within the Defender's power for one full Turn before he can attempt a level 1 Corruption of the Defender's Power.

  Attacker, Second Turn

  As above, and:

  The Attacker may spend PL to attempt a level 1 Corruption of the Defender's Power.  (He may attempt to Corrupt as many Defending Powers as he pleases, as long as he had spies implanted therein for at least one full turn first prior to any Corruption attempts.)  A dice roll resolves whether the Corruption effect is successful (3rd Bidding War between Attacker and Defender.)
  If the Corruption was successful, the Attacker has achieved level 1 Corruption of the Defender.  The Defender will know his power was corrupted, but there is nothing further he can do about it this turn.  The actual level 1 Corruption will begin on the next turn.
  If the Corruption was unsuccessful, the Attacker gains nothing, but may try again next turn.

  Attacker, Third Turn

  As above, and:

  The Attacker may spend PL to attempt a level 2 Corruption of the Defender's Power.  (He may attempt level 2 Corruption as many Defending Powers as he pleases, as long as he had previously Corrupted them to level 1)  A dice roll resolves whether the Corruption effect is successful (3rd Bidding War between Attacker and Defender.)
  If the Corruption was successful, the Attacker ups his level of Corruption of the Defender to level 2.  The Defender knows this, but there is nothing further he can do about it this turn.  The actual level 2 Corruption will begin on the next turn.
  If the Corruption was unsuccessful, the Attacker loses one level of Corruption.  If the Attacker was at level 2 Corruption, and striving for level 3, he falls to level 1.  If the Attacker was at level 1 Corruption, and striving for level 2, he loses all his Corruption of the Defending power and must start his Corruption efforts over again.

  Attacker, Fourth Turn

  As above.  Etc.

  -

  Interloper, Turn 1:

  Each and every Turn, Interloper may spend PL on implanting spies in Defending powers (in as many Defending powers as desired.)
  The Interloper is subject to having his spies detected and expelled/nullified, and he may expend PL to protect his spies (the 1st and 2nd Bidding Wars, except in this case between the Defender and the Interloper.)

  - The Interloper must successfully have a spy implanted in the Defending Power, whether detected or not, full a full turn before he can Interfere.
  - The Interloper must successfully have detected the Attacker's spy in order to Interfere (requiring a 1st Bidding War between the Interloper and the Attacker) although this requirement is voided if the Attacker freely tells the Interloper about the spy.
  - There must be some manner of attack (placing a spy, attempting a Corruption) or defense (detecting a spy, expelling/nullifying a spy, lowering/breaking a Corruption) between Attacker and Defender for any Interference from the Interloper to be possible.

  Interloper, Turn 2:

  Each and every turn that he has a spy within a Defending Power, and otherwise meets all the above requirements, and all the other requirements above are met, the Interloper can do the following:

  - He can Interfere with attempts to detect spies (the First Bidding War) either against or for the Defender.
  - He can Interfere with attempts to expel/nullify spies (the Second Bidding War) either against or for the Defender.
  - He can Interfere with attempts at Corruption (or raising the level of Corruption) of the Defender (the Third Bidding War) either against or for the Defender.

  The Interloper must spend PL to do so.  The more PL he spends, the more he can Interfere.
  The Interloper can interfere with as many Attackers against one Defender, or as many Attackers and Defenders, as he wishes, so long as he has a spy within the Defender's (or each Defender's) territory and otherwise meets the requirements given above, and he is willing to spend the PL to do so.

  Note that all powers are simultaneously Attackers, Defenders, and Interlopers, if they wish to be!


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

(feels like a total idiot)

  Serpenteye, when you say powers start with elite and epic PLs, are you saying they start with elite armies and epic armies?  PLs = armies?

  I have extensively modified the Infiltration rules above.  If you have read them, read them again.  I think they are more understandable now.
  And ... I have modified them again.  I hope they are clear now!


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 4, 2004)

One small question, to which I think I already know the asnwer but would like to be completely sure: 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th level Psionics are researchable in precisely the same way as Magic and have precisely the same rules governing them. Correct?


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Dec 4, 2004)

So, to make it easier for me to pick from free factions, can anyone give me a link to page they appear, and are rules complitely set, and where is newest version of them?

And if someone want's me to join as co-operative member, I am available for that option too. I live in Europe area, can post probably 2/day most, e-mail I read more often, especially if I home. I have pretty much free time until 17.1., so this would be good time for me to play.

I am not very good at tactical games, but it's not the reason why I would like to avoid some important decicion making. It's because during last IR I was always around when it was too late to react some some even, and it got really confusing to having to read so many pages and notice that some even I wanted to do something was already over.

If the time problem is gone from this game this won't be so much an issue for me.

Oh and if anyone want's to contact me personally my e-mail was zelda@dlc.fi


----------



## Airwhale (Dec 4, 2004)

Hey Zelda,

Maybe we could work together? I have never played an IR before and frankly, it's a bit intimidating.


I'm not too familier with the world of Oearth. I'm looking at the celestial folk (can't remember there name right now) or maybe the spelljammers?  With so many evil folk out there, perhaps it would be good to get a few more neutrals or good folk in? Anyone have a suggestion on what might be fun to play? I'm really up for anything.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

*To Airwhale and Zelda*

Here are the unclaimed Powers.  There were on page 12.
  The complete rules of the 5th IR are also on page 12.  You can't miss them:  it's a HUGE post by Serpenteye!  
  A list - as updated as I could get it so far - of the Players and their powers is on page 13, near the top I think.

  Here are the powers Serpenteye says are still open for claims.  I added some things to his list for you to look at.

  Unclaimed Factions:

The Suel Barbarians (minor faction) (Northeast part of map) (Neutrals)
Nyrond+Urnst-states (major faction) (Central east part of map) (Good)
The Kevellond League (Major faction) [M intentional] (Central west part of map) (Good)
The Bakluni Empire (Major faction) (West part of map, just claimed by William) (Neutral)
The Celestial Imperium (Major faction) (Off-map to the west) (Neutral)
The Ice Elves of the Adri Forest (medium faction) (In Adri Forest, east part of map, just claimed by Forsaken One I believe.) (Evil)
The Iron League (minor faction) (Central southeast part of map.) (Good)
Nippon (medium faction) (Off-map to the southwest) (Unknown)
Erypt (medium faction) (Off-map way to the southwest) (Unknown)
The Tarquish Dominion and Empire (Major faction) (Off-map way to the west) (Unknown)
Lyrn (Major faction) (Off-map, WAY to the west) (Unknown)
Ishtarland (major faction) (Off-map, westward) (Unknown)
Elven Forest (major faction) (Off-map, way to the west, and I think it just got claimed) (Good)
Various Greyspace factions (minor-medium factions) (Off-map, up in Wildspace) (All alignments and many races.)

  Serpenteye stated that the Solistarim (Major faction) (Northwesternmost part of map, Black Ice and Godspires beyond off-map) (evil, xenophobic, lawful evil races) are also available.

  Also, the City of Greyhawk (and the lands it controls) and the Bright Desert/Bright Lands (Rary's Empire) are unclaimed. (Center of map, neutral, and center of map, evil) (Faction strength unknown to me)

  Also, call me a fool, but I think everyone has overlooked it:  Zindia is still unclaimed (off-map, to the south/southwest) (alignment unknown) (faction strength unknown to me)

  I would like to note that the Empire of Lyrn is HUGE.  It's as big as the entire Flanaess.  I'm guessing it's a regular powerhouse of might.

  - - -

  And here are all the maps I could find, and can throw at you:  

  GUILTY PUPPY'S 5TH IR MAP (in it's current guise) (This is our working map for the 5th IR, showing who owns what)

http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-edit.php

  OTHER GREYHAWK/OERTH MAP URLS

Close-in maps:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/
Overview map:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd...eteflanaess.gif
Large-scale map:  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/gridgeo.gif
Large-scale map:  http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif
Large-scale map:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/oerthlarge.gif

Map links from William's Map and Other Campaign Resources Post (note that some links are broken)

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/wogmaps.html
Greyhawk Maps: http://www.thewatchman.de/spidersweb/oerik.htm
Oerth and Greyhawk maps:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/Campaigns/GreyhawkMaps/
Oerth map: http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif
Oerik Continent: http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/...p/supermap.html
World of Greyhawk Map: http://www.arrantdestiny.com/maps.htm
Greyhawk Maps: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/wogmaps.html
(One shows latitude.)
Living Greyhawk Maps: http://ca.geocities.com/kanisl/
World of Greyhawk Maps: http://talmeta.net/maps/wog.htm

  MAUDLIN'S FINAL MAP FROM THE 3RD IR

http://users.pandora.be/maudlin/Greyhawk.jpg


  - - -

  (exhausted, goes offline)


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 4, 2004)

Oh - for the record, I'm perfectly happy to have my email up here in whatever format you like.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

I will place Eluvan's e-mail on my (next) list in it's normal format.
  Does anyone else give me permission to show their e-mail (as it actually is) on my public (on this thread) list?

  (NOW goes offline, exhausted)


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 4, 2004)

*To everyone*

If we could somehow produce a working model (colors, powers assigned, et. al as per Guilt Puppy's map) of this map, we'd have it made.

http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif


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## Airwhale (Dec 4, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Here are the unclaimed Powers.  There were on page 12.
> 
> The Celestial Imperium (Major faction) (Off-map to the west) (Neutral)





Nuh-uh... Really? With a name like The *Celestial* Imperium I'd expect a kingdom full of goody two-shoe angel huggers! 

I gotta do some reaserch.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Dec 4, 2004)

PC description:

In game terms, the Wolf God is a paragon greater barghest of 18 hit dice, with five levels of warshaper, five of planar champion, and several dozen of legendary dreadnought.  This is a purely combatant build, with only minimal and passive magical abilities.

For flavor text:  The Wolf God is a terrible sight to behold: a 15-foot goblinoid form, most of its body masked in several hundred pounds of urdrukar full plate.  The leering wolflike head that forms the helm is, in fact, identical to the true visage of its wearer, down to the blazing topaz eyes.  His pride and joy, _Grimcleaver_, is a masterwork of vile metallurgy.  The falchion, tall as two men, has been patternwelded from Baatorian greensteel, morghuth-iron, and adamantine, heated in fires made from the souls of fallen paladins, and quenched in the still-living bodies of kidnapped priests of Trithereon; the bounties placed by the Wolf God on live swanways indicates that he hopes to duplicate the honing of the _Angelwing Razor._

The policies of the Wolf God are simple: order is the proper way of the world, and he is the proper director of that order.  To this end, he has made common cause with those who are willing to stomach his means: a brutal tyranny which also includes a complicated caste system.  To appease Iuz, he allows his clerical castes (primarily bureaucrats, but also numbering sorcerors, wizards, and those with natural magical powers) to worship the cambion demigod (incidentally providing him with a corp of divine casters to assist his armies); to the drow who dwell so unfortunately close to his heartlands, he has promised positions in the upper hierarchy.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Dec 4, 2004)

I claim Rary and the Bright Lands as under Eli Tomorast's influence - see Dragon 112 for why.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 4, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Serpenteye:
> I still belive that Antimagic Field should protect from direct attack by magic. Even High Magic.  But I'm just being stubborn, so You could ignore it.
> 
> How to increase my Demon population ? Can they breed normally ? Or I need Rebirth Pits. And safe demiplane to put them in. And I need a list of fiends in my service ... Rough numbers, and detailed description of Legion of The Black Death !
> ...




There's a precedence in WOTC's official DnD rules for Epic levels that state that A non-epic Antimagic Field does not work against an Epic spell. I think I'll apply that ruling to the High Magic of this IR. 

Some Demons breed faster than others. But still, since the IR is divided into 3-month turns and probably won't last more than a few years, natural population growth won't be very significant for any race. Magical means can perhaps be researched, but let's leave that to after the game has begun. Making up rules about it would be unwieldy for me, much better if I can simply read and judge your own suggestions and plans in your E-mails to me.

Magic items are represented by Elite and Epic PLs (they can be conquered or stolen from your enemies). They can be created normally. Artifacts are trickier. Creating them takes time and power beyond the ability of most mortals. You're better off trying to take them from someone else. 




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> This post is going to be
> difficult and messy.  Bear with me, Serpenteye.
> 
> I am ... guessing ... that you are assigning PLs to each nation, like I did in the 3rd IR.
> ...




That's good advice. 

This time around PLs is a measure of disposable power that can be used at an immediate notice during the Turn. It represents your armies, magical items and cold hard cash. It's not tied to the territories, but to your faction as a whole.

IC, Industrial Capacity is the measure of the productive capacity of the territories. It represents the value of your factories, mines, farming and so on. In other words, the aspects of your wealth that can not be liquidated on a short notice but builds the foundation of your productive economy. At the end/beginning of each Turn it decides how many Power Points (PPts) you can spend in your template.

Power Points exists only between Turns, it is what your IC turns into and it is what you spend on technological research, industrialization, creation of armies and such.

Your IC is turned into PPts which can be turned into PLs or more IC. That's the way it works. (And this is going into my rules-post).



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Now ... if you use the system above, something else is going to become frightfully apparent.
> 
> The question about Infiltration is:  do I infiltrate a SINGLE jigsaw piece of my opponent's territory (a 5th of Furyondy, one of the 12 drow cities, northwest Aerdi, the Tilvanot Jungle, etc.) or do I infiltrate the ENTIRE power being played by that player?
> I would recommend that Infiltration be of the ENTIRE power, and here's why:
> ...




This seems a bit complicated to me   . My system involves one opposed roll with a couple of possible bonuses. Easy as pie, at least for me and I'm the one who'll do most of the work.
The Power required to infiltrate a territory is directly proportionate to the value of the territory so it doesn't really matter that territories are differently sized.
You conquer a faction one province at a time, mostly, it's only sensible that you should Infiltrate it the same way. If it's truly all or nothing, the way it seems your rules would have it, it's too easy for a faction to lose everything in one sudden blow. And it's also too hard for the attacker if he's in danger of losing everything with one wrong step. It doesn't reflect the way I've pictured Eluvan's, Anabstercorian's and... (sorry, I know there is a third Infiltrator-player, but can't remember their name atm.)... faction would work. 
 My rules for incremental infiltration gives the target the chance to gather his forces and strike back next turn if he fails to defend himself and doesn't have enough power reserved to strike back the current turn.
Perhaps we would need rules for how to do a coup de'tat but it seems to me that that would be handled well enough trough the combat-rules.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (feels like a total idiot)
> 
> Serpenteye, when you say powers start with elite and epic PLs, are you saying they start with elite armies and epic armies?  PLs = armies?
> 
> ...




No, no, don't feel like that. There's no reason to.

PLs are martial, so yes PLs can = armies, but can also be used for other things like Infiltration (spend your Regular PLs) or magical research (Elite PLs).

(That's a new thought for me. Using regular PLs for Infiltration would simplify the system considerably. No longer need you put specific PPts in reserve for Infiltration... Regular PLs, as the two other kinds of PL, can represent various kinds of currency (magical and otherwise), that in turn can be used to bribe and manipulate. In essence you spend "money" to infiltrate.)

Thanks for giving me the idea by raising the question about Infiltration. 



			
				Eluvan said:
			
		

> One small question, to which I think I already know the asnwer but would like to be completely sure: 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th level Psionics are researchable in precisely the same way as Magic and have precisely the same rules governing them. Correct?




Same effect, different flavour. 




			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> So, to make it easier for me to pick from free factions, can anyone give me a link to page they appear, and are rules complitely set, and where is newest version of them?
> 
> And if someone want's me to join as co-operative member, I am available for that option too. I live in Europe area, can post probably 2/day most, e-mail I read more often, especially if I home. I have pretty much free time until 17.1., so this would be good time for me to play.
> 
> ...




I will do my best to keep the game at a reasonable pace that everyone should be able to keep up with.





			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Here are the unclaimed Powers.  There were on page 12.
> The complete rules of the 5th IR are also on page 12.  You can't miss them:  it's a HUGE post by Serpenteye!
> A list - as updated as I could get it so far - of the Players and their powers is on page 13, near the top I think.
> 
> ...




Good post. 




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> If we could somehow produce a working model (colors, powers assigned, et. al as per Guilt Puppy's map) of this map, we'd have it made.
> 
> http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif




I think the other map of Oerth, "bigoerth" I believe it's called, would be easier to work with for our cartographer. It's less cluttered with colour and fanciful motives.




			
				Airwhale said:
			
		

> Nuh-uh... Really? With a name like The *Celestial* Imperium I'd expect a kingdom full of goody two-shoe angel huggers!
> 
> I gotta do some reaserch.





My impression is that the Celestial Imperium is meant to be some kind of pseudo-chinese location, but you can play it any way you like.
 It would be interesting if the lands outside the Flannaes were characterized differently to the pseudo-European way that that region for the most part is, but that's just a random thought from my part.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 4, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> PC description:
> 
> In game terms, the Wolf God is a paragon greater barghest of 18 hit dice, with five levels of warshaper, five of planar champion, and several dozen of legendary dreadnought.  This is a purely combatant build, with only minimal and passive magical abilities.
> 
> ...




Coolness .



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I claim Rary and the Bright Lands as under Eli Tomorast's influence - see Dragon 112 for why.




A place like that would be a good base for your organization...
Claim granted.


----------



## Creamsteak (Dec 4, 2004)

Can magic affect tech (what I'm looking for, is could I create a 10th or 11th level spell that functions as a large scale "anti-technology" field)?

Second, would there be any benefits to attaining both 10th level magic AND psionics?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Dec 4, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Can magic affect tech (what I'm looking for, is could I create a 10th or 11th level spell that functions as a large scale "anti-technology" field)?




That seems devastatingly imbalanced to me; if high-level magic not only directly counters other high-level magic, and increases combat effectiveness, but can directly counter technological improvements as well, there will be absolutely no reason to develop technology.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 4, 2004)

Figure that if an anti-tech or tech-dampening field can be created, its benefits are included in the combat bonuses from high-level magic.

RE: The Theocracy of the pale:

Hmm... it is an intersting question what a theocracy would do in the sudden absence of the actual diety in question.  Widespread confusion and despair, which is the perfect environment for a benevolent and charistmatic religious orginization to appeal to the mass of those disenfranchised under the previous regime.  I was, in any case, going to pull the diplomatic equivalent of a blitzkrieg in attempting to persuade them to act a paticular way, so I wouldn't object to getting all or part of that soon-to-be-pwned-country.

Some rules questions:

Mostly I'm wondering about cooperation.  What benefits can be gained in any given field (tech, industrialization, magic, war) through cooperating with your allies?  Militarily, obviously, you just throw your forces in with theirs and smash things.

In terms of industrailization, it seems like their should be some way to spend your PPs or PLs (not sure which is right), perhaps at a reduced efficiency, to invest it in someone else's industrial capacity.

In terms of Tech, it's not a straight "sharing tech secrets" thing 'cause everyone has the blueprints.  But cooperation still seems like it would help- even if you have the precise instructions on how to, say, install a DVD player, having someone who is tech-savvy help you with it means it gets done faster.

In terms of magic, you have to figure out what having 10th level spells researched means.  Is it transferable knowledge?

More later, must run,.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Can magic affect tech (what I'm looking for, is could I create a 10th or 11th level spell that functions as a large scale "anti-technology" field)?
> 
> Second, would there be any benefits to attaining both 10th level magic AND psionics?




As a "catastropy type" offensive spell, yes you can. Generally, though, it's probably easier to simply blow up the technology in question. It would be a spell with a limited duration, not exceeding a few days even in the smallest possible area of effect, and the side-effects may be surprising.

(sidebar:
How would one define "technology" in the terms of the laws of nature (Magic is a part of those laws.)? Are not living beings biological machines? What would be the effects of a spell directed specifically against technology, something that we define more from a societal and economical perspective than a physical one?
Granted, magic defies conventional reason. But it's still regulated by certain laws)




			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> That seems devastatingly imbalanced to me; if high-level magic not only directly counters other high-level magic, and increases combat effectiveness, but can directly counter technological improvements as well, there will be absolutely no reason to develop technology.




The effects of such a spell would be limited both in duration and area, similar in scope to the usual "blow them up"- spells. Some particularly sturdy pieces of technology may even be resistant.
The spell would be viable, but not overpowered.



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Figure that if an anti-tech or tech-dampening field can be created, its benefits are included in the combat bonuses from high-level magic.




That's part of it, yes. That would reflect the standard, individual use of 10th level spells, but not the faction-wide ritual spells.



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Some rules questions:
> 
> Mostly I'm wondering about cooperation.  What benefits can be gained in any given field (tech, industrialization, magic, war) through cooperating with your allies?  Militarily, obviously, you just throw your forces in with theirs and smash things.
> 
> ...




Knowledge of High Magic or High-Tech is not transferable faction to faction. Allowing that would open a huge can of worms and could very well ruin the game for a lot of the players. It would force you all to gang together into huge power-blocks and rob you of much of your ability to make individual decisions. Perhaps that's ok with some of you, but others are going to resent the necessity of it and it's going to cause stagnation in the game as people see that their individual actions do not matter. That's my worst-case scenario, but it's bad enough.

In game terms I could explain it like this. You all know plenty of High-Tech, but to use it you have to construct the proper infrastructure to construct all the components. That's what the technological arms-race is all about, and that's what costs your people their time and effort. Of course, you could spend your own Power Points to upgrade somebody elses infrastructure of industrial capacity, but that would cost you just as much as if you had spent it on yourself. Helping each others is all fine and well, but it's no shortcut to power.

Magic is expensive. Researching magic requires a huge sacrifice from the most powerful, strong-willed and individualistic people in your faction. These people are willing (more or less) to make that sacrifice for their own faction, but they won't stand to see their work put freely into the hands of their potential enemies. They won't trust even the most lawful or goodly ally enough to put the fruit of their very souls into their hands. They are stubborn like that, so no sharing of researched magic between factions. 

Actually actively sacrificing themselves by putting points into another factions magical arms race is simply an unthinkable act for them.

You are free to concieve of a more convincing rationale, but my ruling stands as a firm solid No. ))


I realise that any realistic world-simulation would allow you to trade weapons, wealth and magic between each others. But if I'm going to allow that I might as well throw the arms-races out the window because everybody would be able to get their hands on technology and magic (trough trade or infiltration or conquest) and nobody would want to spend their hard-earned resources to develop it.
A game based on a more realistic model would be very interesting. I would personally want to play it, but I cannot put such a game together.


----------



## Guilt Puppy (Dec 5, 2004)

Thanks for the nice comments, all... Been working on it more, and while it ain't bug-free, I think the next edition is ready to show off  ... http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-view.php will be the map that players ought to be looking at (map-edit is useful for serp, on the other hand.)

I noticed Edena made a comment about "jigsaw puzzle" infiltration... Not sure if it's in direct reference to the map or not, but it reminds me of something I've been meaning to bring up: I hope this map will be a useful tool, but in no way do I want or intend for it to influence actual game mechanics. Meaning I assume and hope that serp is keeping his own track of territories owned and conquered, in a manner which can be more or less detailed as the case warrants... So just because, to stick with the example, the 12 drow cities aren't separated by black lines and filled in with color, shouldn't mean that they aren't unique places, or that they can only be infiltrated/conquered all-at-once. The map should be useful for visualization and for reference, but by no means is it intended to be a game board or other definitive description of the state of the game.

Just wanted to put that out there. I've just had this terrible nagging feeling that I'd end up going down in history as the guy who reduced the 5th IR to a clunky game of Risk.

Updated to-do list:
- Some "broken" territories still need fixing. I've gone so far as to identify different levels of broken-ness, which only complicates the matter.
- Update the faction names & colors once a the list is complete (big applause for those who are currently working on assembling that info)
- Get a better list of territory names -- if anyone spots something incorrect, or has better names for certain territories, let me know!
- Have a non-dynamically-served (but still always-up-to-date) world map available for viewing, to eat less cycles and hopefully avoid angering my webhost.
- Password-protect map-edit for serp
- Fix zooming bugs
- Add driving directions and a dining guide

I think this to-do list is actually longer than the last one... Hate how that happens.

Anyway, I'll give a background/bio of the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Elder Brothers later... for now, I need to head back to my own game and try to catch up on that


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2004)

*To Everyone In The 5th Ir:  Please Read*

Edena_of_Neith here.  Greetings to all my old friends and to the new people too.  Glad to meet you!  

  Almost 3 years ago, I ran the 3rd IR.  It went from early January to late March of 2001.
  We carried the 3rd IR to a point in the storyline where I felt I could stop.

  But, I want everyone to know just what it meant, to run the 3rd IR, with it's 25 players and rules complexity - and this, the 5th, IR has a large number of players and some rules complexity, so there is a rough analogy, and what applied there may well apply here too.

  I had to work 8 to 12 hours a day, every day, for 3 months straight - working day and night - to conduct the 3rd IR.  That's hardly a boast:  many people were greatly dissatisfied with the pace of the IR (it was too slow.)
  I collapsed under the pressure and workload on Turn 5, then recovered, and the IR recovered ... miraculously.  I guess it really recovered because most of my players really wanted it to, wanted the fun to continue, and refused to let my mistakes kill it.

  The single biggest thing that caused pressure on me was a deluge of e-mails.  A literal deluge.
  I had 25 people simultaneously:
  -  Sending in plans for the tech arms race, magical arms race, troop build-up and movement, alliances, special plans for special inventions, special plans for how those inventions would be used, and so on.
  -  A lot of questions concerning the rules.  This includes people asking me to resolve a rule where I had already e-mailed them with the resolution, and in a few cases people accusing me of ignoring their question when I had already e-mailed them with a resolution (I did miss a lot of questions, though, and this angered players justifiably.)
  -  A lot of grand plans.  By grand, I mean plans on the order of creating new races, colonizing other worlds, taking over another power by wildly nefarious means, and some rather incredible magical and technological inventions that were all too plausible in the environment (for example, someone figured out how, using low level spells and basic materials, to blow up the planet!  If that sounds like a joke, think again:  I had to arbitrate that.)

  The deluge of e-mails, coming day and night, was in addition to everything happening on-screen.  A double whammy.

  By freak circumstances, I had the time to spend, back then.  I had the 8 to 12 hours a day, every day.  And I was obsessed:  obsessed with making the IR work, keeping it going, and making it great (I may not have succeeded in making it great, but I tried.)

  Now ...

  Serpenteye is brighter than I am.
  Serpenteye has a stronger work ethic than I do (he can accomplish far more, per hour of work, than I can.)
  Serpenteye has access to better computer programs than I do.
  And Serpenteye has the help of Guilt Puppy, in making the map (a CRUCIAL development, without which I don't know how we'd do this at all.  Without Maudlin, the 3rd IR wouldn't have worked at all, much less been as good as it was for many people.)

  But ...

  Serpenteye has limits:  physical, psychological, timewise, and otherwise.
  If those limits are overthrown, we will have a burned out Gamemaster.
  A burned out Gamemaster means the 5th IR is over.
  Finis the fun.  Finis the IR.
  We don't want that to happen.

  I will go out on a limb here, and say the following:

  We must coddle Serpenteye along.  That's not meant to be condescending in any way, but is the literal truth.  We must help him, must be patient with him, must NOT attack him or accuse him of ignoring us, and otherwise give him every bit of slack possible.
  Even if we do that, Serpenteye will still face overwhelming pressure.

  We MUST NOT deluge Serpenteye with e-mails!!!  We must limit e-mails as much as we can:  trust me when I say that he will still have a LOT of e-mails to deal with, even if we exercise great restraint!

  Anyone who can help with maps (THANK YOU, GUILT PUPPY) needs to work with Serpenteye and help him as a surrogate.

  We players must not be lazy.  We must proactively read the rules, understand the rules (and accept the consequences on ourselves if we do not understand, rather than blame Serpenteye), and act on them.
  Those players who have not claimed factions, should claim them, and aggressively develop them.
  Players should try to be self-reliant as much as possible.  Don't lean on the Gamemaster any more than is possible.  We must do it ourselves.
  If that sounds unreasonable, imagine being a gamemaster where everyone wants every single little question about their power answered in triplicate, then has more questions from the answers, and is constantly hitting the gamemaster with e-mails and online comments, and ... we have a burned out gamemaster.

  We players are the bearers of the IR.  That has ALWAYS BEEN TRUE of the IRs.  We, not the gamemaster, carry the game.  The gamemaster simply arbitrates, going along with our insanity!
  If we rely on the gamemaster to make all the calls, to play the game for us, he will be whelmed.  Remember that Serpenteye has his hands full with rules and unclaimed powers as it is:  he has no time to play our game for us too!

  We must do this in the spirit of fun.  The SECRET of a successful IR (take it from the IR's creator, folks) is that it is slightly tongue-in-cheek.  It is not dead serious, and neither is it totally frivolous, but somewhere in between.
  In a scenario where you have a faction seriously trying to take over the world in a strategic game, yet the possibility exists of someone blowing up the world with some crazy invention (or, in the case of the 1st IR, turning all the evil races good, turning the sky green, letting pure Chaos hit Realmspace, and other things of this sort), there has to be a kind of ... compromise ... between seriousness and frivolity.

  If you go all serious, you will take the frivolous elements of the IR as ridiculous, and we lose players, and that disheartens everyone.  Not to mention, Serpenteye will be accused of being a ridiculous gamemaster (I know, for it happened to me, folks.)  This will not make Serpenteye feel very good, will it?
  And if Serpenteye is not feeling good, and is not having fun himself, you have a burned out gamemaster, and why not?  Why should he run the game when people are attacking him, or not having fun themselves, or quitting en mass?

  If you go completely frivolous, this won't work either.  Serpenteye (and I, in the 3rd IR) developed rules, and the rules were meant to be used.  A guideline by which to hang all the impossible inventions, dreams, and plots upon.
  Learn the rules, respect the rules, and use the rules to win!  That is what Serpenteye did himself in the 3rd IR as a player, and he was winning because of it!
  And when Serpenteye sees that players are working hard to win, using his rules, he will take that as a sign people are truly interesting in his game, truly respect his game, like his game, and want to stay the course.  That will mean more fun for him, and more inspiration for him.

  Did you know that when the players are having fun, it generates fun for the gamemaster?
  And when the gamemaster is having fun, he is generally a better gamemaster, and runs a better (read:  funner) game?
  And that this becomes a self-perpetuating cycle, and feeds on itself?
  I am presuming that all of you know this.  And the cycle can feed on itself until the players are all but maniacal in their efforts to play and win!  (I should know.  I watched the 1st IR explode like a rocket.  It was astounding.  I had never expected a casual question to turn into a major game!)
  Try to have fun, try to help others have fun, try to help Serpenteye have fun, and that will be reciprocated!  If it looks too frivolous (or absurd, or over the top) let it go:  it's only an IR.  If it looks too serious, let it go and loosen up:  the strain on you will kill your power as surely as the enemy will!

  Now, I may have offended people with this post, but that was not my intent.
  I may have told you a LOT of things you ALREADY know.  I appreciate that:  I am just trying to relate what I learned from the 3 IRs I ran.

  I am informed that the 4th IR, the Rokugan IR, died due to burn-out.
  We don't want that to happen to us!
  And it won't happen if we are having fun, and we are trying to have fun and help others have fun, and cutting slack for others, and maintainng the compromise between the frivolous and the serious.

  That does not mean that everyone is going to be happy with the 5th IR.
  Some players will simply find the situation unfun and/or intolerable.  And they will quit.
  This is inevitable.
  But, if we work at this, most of us will stay the course, and we will make this an IR for the record books.
  And THAT will be remembered, and cherished in our memories, and the legacy of the IR will be one of fun, friendship, and perhaps a desire to start a 6th IR!

  I CARE about this 5th IR.  I cared enough to post this.  If we care about the IR, and we work hard to make it work, and we compromise between seriousness and frivolity, and we fight to aid Serpenteye against burn-out ... this could be an IR that goes down in legend.

  Yours in True Sincerity and in Humbleness
  Edena_of_Neith


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## James Heard (Dec 5, 2004)

I picked out three jigsaw pieces off map precisely because I saw the whole invade a single part and die situation already. Another note related though: The Marchwards I talked about are the rulers of the "Kingdoms of the Marches" shown on the map here http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif that I was using as my basis for pickin' and choosin'.

The Mare Mysticum Alliance

For ages the elven nations of the Mare Mysticum lived in relative isolation from the human and other demihuman powers that ruled to the east and west across the sea. Their only true contest of powers were with the giants of Fireland and the primitive monsters of Gigantea, but that changed with the coming of mankind to the south. With the establishment of the Eryptian refugees that came to call themselves the Empire of Lynn the elves found themselves in conflict, war had come for the first time to groves since the dark ones were cast down into the depths of Oerth. 

Still, the Lynndites were primitive compared to the elves and more vulnerable to manipulation by ancient minds of the elven elders. The humans were seeded with heresies and embroiled into civil wars, sympathetic and promising humans were seduced by fair elven maidens for the good of the People. Once the dust settled the Empire of Lynn was cut into three portions, the Empire, the heretical tribes of the Enllave, and the half-elven protectorate kingdom of the Marches. Today, Lynn still covets or claims areas of the Mare Mysticum such as the Marches and Elven Forest. The Mare itself is unclaimed by either side for the most part, being a place difficult to travel to thanks to difficult seas and of questionable value due to its enormous swampy prominence (roughly the size of the Suel Empire at its height). 

Physically the Elven Forest itself is the least forgiving of all geography around the Mare. Some of the treants of the Forest remember when the elves and their dark brothers the drow were one people, and when humanity was a mere  myth used to frighten gullible elven children. Portions of the faerie court hold residence here deep in the recesses, and the ghosts of fey elven heroes lurk in the shadows to waylay the unannounced into the forest. The Elven Forest is what defines the Mare Mysticum region for what it is, a magical place. Even though few brave elves actually make residence in the forest, its presence is the entire reason for being for the elves to be in the area. Time itself seems to pass more slowly and sometimes less clearly within its borders, and elven and sylvan priestesses and seers come from all across the world to consult with the forest itself's strange intelligence. It is said that before the breaking with the outer planes that Corellon Larethian would while away hours in conversation with the rocks and trees of the Elven Forest. Some say that the  legendary patience of the elves was learned in this place, and that in the center of the forest the most ancient of all elven holy sites - a temple dedicated to Sehanine who led the ancient elven people to Oerth - sits untouched by the sands of time.

The Kingdoms of the Marches spread to cover the lands between Gigantea, Lynn, the lost dwarven lands of the Landspire mountains that provide a buffer between the Marches and the lands of the Khanates and Celestial Imperium, and most of the land between the Elven homelands and the Elven Forest. Once the Marches were much smaller, and the Elven homelands much greater, but as time has passed the elves have retreated more and more as their number dwindled and the Marchward's subjects multiplied. The Marchwards are a hardy, industrious folk of mostly half-elven descent. Pledged eternally to their ancient task of guardianship, the Marchwards divide their lands according to celestial accordances garnered from the seerage of the elves. Few humans are allowed to immigrate to the Marches unless they pass a series of tests of magic and skill maintained to establish their loyalty to the elves, but those same tests guarantee that the rulers of the Marches are mighty and committed to their task indeed. Much of the land of the Marches is wide, fertile valleys left over from glaciation. Few occupy the lands, but ancient elven fortresses dot much of the countryside and are occupied by their now half-elven defenders and their fey allies. The overall governship of the Marches is covered by the Council of Y'Cind, whose traditional members include the Prince of Elvenkind, the high priest of Y'Cind, and an ambassador from the Faerie Court of the Elven Forest.

The Elven nation itself is empty. No, not entirely - but the cities of the elves lie mostly unoccupied and the storm wracked seas off the coast sometimes wash through the ages old magics that once protected the shores from the worst of the blizzards that wash over Gigantea. One of the first thing most notice about the place is that most of the residents are old, visibly old as few elves outside the Elven nation are ever seen. A few reckless and ill-tempered young elves pledged as honor guard stay here, and the occasional pilgrim seeking knowledge that might only be found in the capital Coronel's hallowed libraries come for moments. Elves in the ancient homelands live longer than they might live someplace further from the Elven forest and the magic invoked over the years in the Mysticum. The only ambassadors to the Elven nation is a single solitary building in Coronel hosting the delegation from the Celestial Imperium. There has never been an embassy for the Empire of Lynn, all such conversations having been between intermediaries such as the Marchward kings. Even though the Elven nations and the Mysticum alliance covers a huge amount of acreage it is quite thinly populated, being the home of mostly elves, their fey allies, ancient treants and awakened animals, ghosts, and their half-elven knight-protectors.

Also, for the record I found some reference to an article by Skip Williams in Dragon about some of this - I didn't actually get a cite for the article, just some vague murmurings that perhaps the Celestial Imperium might be a Roman sort of nation according to Skip. That's what I've been acting on, since the Sage is probably a better source for starting on things Oerthian sans Flan than me at least. If anyone has a cite on the actual article that would be great, I'd like to see what there is to see (and there's a good chance that I have the Dragon...somewhere I guess). If anyone's got the Dragon cd text to blurb at everyone far away from LGG-land that might even be better, because while I have no doubt my version is awfully cool I'd at least like to give a looksee at what the pretense of canon might garner me.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 5, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> (sidebar:
> How would one define "technology" in the terms of the laws of nature (Magic is a part of those laws.)? Are not living beings biological machines? What would be the effects of a spell directed specifically against technology, something that we define more from a societal and economical perspective than a physical one?
> Granted, magic defies conventional reason. But it's still regulated by certain laws)




For the purposes of the IR I would define technology as anything derived from technology or plans brought to Oerth by the Demons. That seems both finite, clear, and pretty accurate for the IR.

Second, you didn't answer my earlier second question: Would there be any benefit to researching BOTH magic AND psionics?


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 5, 2004)

So, up to date again having read all of it  I'll post a description of my faction in the next few days. I'm kinda ill (like when haven't I been for the last 5 years but now just a tad worse then normal) and my study is killing me and I still have a D&D game to run tomorrow so it might take a few days to get it all together and with decent descriptions and stuff.

So please bare with me here hehe. Looks good btw, everything and all that  Just one thing I'd like to contribute as advice to Serp:

Keep the players on a short leash on several levels. People will attempt the weirdest, boldest and most severely power increasing plans and plots from the start. Don't give in to that, giving too much power too fast will destroy the game like what happened in the Rokugan IR.

Keep the power increase kinda low, no super plans and stuff happening and allowing in the first couple of rounds. Alot of people will enjoy playing with the map as it is. Like as in the RISK game and all that. Most people will enjoy battleing it out with normal armys over borders, without having to think about nukes, airstrikes and magical catastrophes. Not even mensioning Spelljamming and teleporting armys that appear all over the world in an instant (or the 6 seconds it takes to cast the teleport spell in question) that destroy your most intrecate defense plans for your borders and the pleasure you get from natural borders and obstacles like mountains and stuff.

Let the first few turns be simple, not too complicated with everyones plans comming to fruition too soon. This is what destroyed the Rokugan IR and what caused the reset for the 3rd IR in the first place (yes if you remember, the 3rd IR was reset after the 3rd turn orso when I abused the system and had like 8 people summoning my devils which resulted in my amount of PL exploding and ruining everything for everyone, my bad.).

Everyone will enjoy the classic battlefields and that kinda stuff, the weird magic and tech stuff will come later. People will grow into it over the course of a couple of turns.

Hope I said something usefull to increase game enjoyment for everyone


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 5, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> You are free to concieve of a more convincing rationale, but my ruling stands as a firm solid No. ))




No, I think I'll leave you alone on this one.   I _might_ argue the finer details of your in-game rational, but your out-of-game one is entirely reasonable, and about what I expected- no, magical research isn't transferable, and yes, you could spend your own PPs on other people for industry and tech, but there's no direct gain.  I would ask about the second point- could I, for example, negotiate with an Infiltrator faction to infiltrate territory X and pass on the info for me; in exchange, I'll pay for the insertion cost, or such-and-such many regular PL's.  If I get this right, since regular PL that aren't converted to armies can represent any number of things, including money, this is a reasonable system.

One thing I did want to add, and didn't have time for, was that I think it would be cool (and, perhaps more to the point, balanced) to allow people to cast high-level spells over multiple factions if they both have the capability.  For example, both Celene and the Mare Mysticum (a purely hypthoetical alliance, I assure you) have access to 10th-level spells and X and Y number of Epic PLs.  Alone, they could cast a certain number of 10th-level spells per turn; together, their mages wreak untold devastation!

Very often in fiction, paticularly in the history of a world (random thought: after we wrap this up, run an RPG game set in post-IR greyhawk, if there is one), there's a line about "The mages of Elves and priests of men combined their power to..." etc., etc. and it would be great if we could throw that sort of thing in here.

To return to something you said earlier, perhaps small mage-centric factions like the Circle of Eight should have a Researcher trait, to go along with the small rogue-centric Infiltrators, allowing them to get more bang for their epic PL buck.  This would allow them to compete with their larger neighbors in a way similar to the way Infiltrator does.  This may or may not be required, depending on how you "stat out" the territories and forces they control.

Some thinking aloud: Your output is Industry and the number of PPs you generate, basically.  So what is trade with other countries?  The scale actually seems large enough for business to matter a little (hey, each turn is a quarter!), but on the other hand, not matter _that much._  Probably best to keep it abstract.  Although it occurs to me that one way to represent trade is to voluntarily trade some control of a territory.  So the Kevelond League gets 1 point of a territory of the Baklunish league and Baklun gets 1 point of a territory.  There's no real benefit to either side, but it makes the co-dependent and might be a good sign of trust, a gesture of goodwill, a strengthening of bonds, etc., etc.  It may or may not be worth doing in any case.  Any other thoughts on the matter?

Edena- Thanks for the historical and first-hand view of trying to run this thing.  I like to think I would have been careful and polite before, but I must admit I never actually thought real hard about the _out_ of game logisitics of the IR.  Thanks again to Serpenteye, doghead, William Ronald, Edena, and everyone else who takes some time to pitch in.

As an aside, I'm assuming anyone who made their e-mails available to be contacted about the IR doesn't object to having them up; as I eventually figured out from others on this board, the logic runs that there are programs scanning messageboards and other likely places for e-mail addresses and adding them to spam lists, and they can be fooled by changing the usual [username]@[domain].com format.  So by all means, feel free to post the e-mail addresses in this list I compiled, but on this messageboard I've picked up the habit of [dot]ing my .s and [at]ing my @s. 

Edit:

Something to add about e-mails, other messageboards, and assorted private communication: these boards, with the *spoiler* (which creates blacked-out text) and *sblock* tags (which creates a hideable/revealble section like I've been using for the e-mail list to save scrolling) can also be used.  So if I wanted to send a secret message to Iuz, I could do this:



> Message for Iuz's eyes only:
> [sblock]
> Dear Iuz,
> 
> ...




With no offense intended to the Vecna wannabe in question.  

The disadvantage of this is that, while no one can see _what_ I've written to Iuz (assuming we're all good boys and girls and don't peek), they can see that I _have_ communicated with Iuz.  I also consider having stuff on the boards a virtue, so historians without access to individual e-mail accounts can reconstruct things post-apocalypse. 

I should ask, Serpenteye, 'cause I've been wondering: do you want to see our inter-player communication?  You have to read it, which is more work, but it might save you from being blindsided.  The main reason I mention it, really, is that spying on someone generally include knowing whom they diplomacize with; I think it would be cool if Infiltrators got forwarded the occasional e-mail.   I had assumed you would want to, and my plan was to e-mail the player in question and then post the correspondence under [sblock] tags with a "GM's eyes only" note.  It ends up on the board, and the GM knows what I said, but no one but he and the recipient knows who the recipient _is._

This might be a good way to do all GM-player secret communication, since it means Serpenteye doesn't get deluged with e-mails.


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## Zelda Themelin (Dec 5, 2004)

Airwhale said:
			
		

> Hey Zelda,
> 
> Maybe we could work together? I have never played an IR before and frankly, it's a bit intimidating.
> 
> I'm not too familier with the world of Oearth. I'm looking at the celestial folk (can't remember there name right now) or maybe the spelljammers?  With so many evil folk out there, perhaps it would be good to get a few more neutrals or good folk in? Anyone have a suggestion on what might be fun to play? I'm really up for anything.




That could be fun. I don't have much experience with those factions of Oerth that are left. (well few I am, but they are the minor ones).
Heavenly empire oriental theme is pretty cool, but also something that would need a bit more information to on for me. I am not really informed about oriental mythos.

Some of those off-map factions might be cool too, not much is know so we'd need to ask Serpentseye what he has determined about them, and how much is up to players.

I like Lyrn myself, must be the name. Can be claim that one?

If we play good faction I presume we get our ass handled to us very soon. 

Never know though, these things are unpredictable.

Well, unless you want sometthing more "on-map" I'd like to claim following:

The Celestial Imperium (Major faction) (Off-map to the west) (Neutral)
Lyrn (Major faction) (Off-map, WAY to the west) (Unknown)
Ishtarland (major faction) (Off-map, westward) (Unknown)

(it's just shot in the dark, they just happen to be western. problem is that they are all major factions, not sure if that's too much)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2004)

Serpenteye, it is necessary to create an SN on Nothingland to PM me there.
  Once you have created an SN, just find a thread of mine there (there is one in the Traditional Games forum, and it is about this 5th IR) and click on my SN.  Then you will see the option of PMing me.
  Until you do that, I cannot communicate privately with you.
  I would like to privately communicate with you as soon as possible.

  I am still working on getting an e-mail.  Effort ongoing.

  I am struggling to understand the rules on page 13.  The rules are not clear to me on a number of points (but this reflects on ME, not you ... and the obligation is on me to understand, obviously.)
  I will do my best to learn the rules, and to ask the minimum number of questions.
  I'm still going to totally mess up on Turn 1, I'm guessing.  
  I feel like I did when I played my first game of D&D back in 1977, and it was all fun and new and exciting (and terrifying, too) and I didn't really know what I was doing at all!

  Serpenteye, I am staggered at what you have taken on.  And how calmly you are taking the initial pressure and set-up.  It is nothing short of astounding, and you have my genuine kudos.

  And Guilt Puppy, I am staggered by that map.  Gods, that have been a lot of work to set up.  And setting up still.  I'm rather humbled.  The amount you and others are putting into this:  I'm just staggered.  All I can say again is:  kudos to you.

  I will do what I can to convince someone to play the Kevellond League (and Lortmil League and Ulek States if possible) and the Nyrond-Urnst Confederation.  And Greyhawk.  I think it is very important that someone play those countries.  I really do.  
  And if I cannot do so ... well (and LISTEN UP, FOLKS) I am guessing that you, Serpenteye, will play those powers VERY AGGRESSIVELY (read:  some of us are going to get SQUASHED) starting on Turn 1.
  Why?
  Because if ... I ... were running those greatly threatened Powers, I would play aggressive!  The best defense is a good offense, and those powers are certainly on the defense!

  So, guys, think about it:  either we get someone to play them who may or may not play them quietly and carefully ... or Serpenteye plays them, and he uses them to NUKE us on Turn 1.  Which would you prefer, folks?
  And if you don't believe Serpenteye would do just that, think again.  I ran the 3rd IR, and he was one of the most aggressive players in the game.  He and Mr. Draco made the Union of Oerth into the great power it was.
  In other words, SOMEONE NEEDS TO PLAY THE KEVELLOND LEAGUE, LORTMIL LEAGUE, ULEK STATES, AND THE NYROND-URNST CONFEDERATION.  BEFORE SERPENTEYE GETS HIS GREEDY HANDS ON THEM!!!

  Just a thought there ...

  Now, I've got to go back and read the rules on page 13 again.  (and again, and again, until I understand them.  I won't totally understand them, and I will learn my mistakes soon enough, in the actual game!  And that's ok, and how it should be.  Or, at least, how it always is, with a new game!  (sheepish look))


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2004)

*To Zelda and to Airwhale*

Take a look at this map:  http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif

  As you can see, both the Empire of Lyrn and the Celestial Imperium are HUGE empires, each the size of the entire Flanaess!
  I believe both are Major Factions.  Powerful Factions.

  And I'm guessing ... guessing! ... that Serpenteye will only allow you to choose one of them, because they are such Major Factions.

  He may or may not allow one of you to also have smaller Ishtarland.  I don't know.  (Note the nearby lesser but still large nations of Enllaves (the Tribes of), the Red Kingdom, the Tharquish Empire and the Tarquis Dominions ... I don't know if any of these are claimed, or what their power level is.)

  All I can say is this:

  I would feel whelmed just playing one Major Faction (I am playing one Major Faction:  the Drow of the Flanaess, and I AM feeling whelmed, since I'm still studying the rules on page 13 with great frustration.)
  I wouldn't dream of claiming 2 or more Factions.  I don't think my nervous system could handle it.  I mean:  yes, I once ran the 3rd IR.  But since then it seems ... well, let's just say I admit to being a newbie all over in this 5th IR, and do not presume to know anything until it is knocked through my thick skull!   
  I most certainly wouldn't attempt to claim 3 Factions.  I'd have a nervous breakdown.  The rules on page 13 clearly indicate it would be a paperwork nightmare.

  So, Zelda, I'd claim Lyrn and the Celestial Imperium and Ishtarland at my peril.  I wouldn't do it.  I couldn't do it!  Maybe you can do it (anyone who can speak and type fluent Finnish AND fluent English is a lot brighter than Yours Truly, and I mean that), and Serpenteye will let you, but I sure couldn't do it in your shoes!

  - - -

  Airwhale ...

  If there is a western faction you'd like, you could divy up the western nations with Zelda.

  Do not believe that being far to the west makes you safe!  That is not true!
  Out of sight is NOT out of mind.  Anyone can look at the map above and see where your country is!  And they WILL.
  We will not sit around and let you develop 10th level magic and nukes while we do nothing.  No way!  It isn't going to be that easy for you!


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## Zelda Themelin (Dec 5, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Take a look at this map:  http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif




Thanks Edena. 

 Do you recall is there any information about those lands on that map, or is it kind of "feel free to make it up" thing?


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2004)

*To Zelda (and to Airwhale and anyone else, if they select an off-map power)*

There is information, but it's scant information.  I don't have that information handy.

  Could someone else help Zelda here?  Zelda, William would have the answer to your questions, and you could e-mail him.  Perhaps others here could answer her question above on-screen?

  Serpenteye said to be free with our imaginations.  And those western nations are poorly defined.
  I see no reason why you couldn't make up an enormous amount of stuff:  great stuff, imaginative stuff, neat stuff, and just write it all down on-screen, and e-mail a copy of it to Serpenteye as gamemaster.
  Why not?
  It's your power!  Be creative.  That's what Serpenteye says he wants!

  I mean, consider Lyrn.  It's the size of the Flanaess.  It's just gotta have all sorts of neat and interesting quirks and peoples.  Maybe a different surprise under every rock!  It's own history and culture.  Perhaps, it's native people aren't human or elven or dwarven or any of that, but a strange people from the Monster Manual!  
  Anything you want them to be!  Why not?!  

  Zelda, read my post above yours above again.  I added some stuff.


----------



## Creamsteak (Dec 5, 2004)

Edena, is the email thing like your chosen style of typing? You'll never say what the problem is?

Cause, ya know, I could make 500 email accounts and you could just "pick one" if you want. It wouldn't bother me.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2004)

Not at all, Creamsteak.
  I just decided safe was better than sorry.  I didn't want to offend anyone, so I totally deleted the e-mails.  I will put them back on a permission basis, case by case.
  I have an almost complete list in my private word processor, and intend to send the list to Serpenteye as soon as he PMs me on Nutkinland and enables me to do so.  
  Or, I could PM the list to you and you could send it to him (in which case, please post to my thread in Traditional Games in Nothingland, and I'll PM you based on that, and then you can e-mail it to Serpenteye.)  Because Serpenteye has requested I get it to him ASAP.
  Just trying to help here.  And to be careful not to offend or break any rules I didn't know about.

  In fact, I'll go to Nothingland now, and attempt to find your SN, and PM you with the list.  I want to get that list to Serpenteye ASAP.  I'm just trying to help Serpenteye however I can (feebly as that may be, I fear.)

  EDIT:  I sent you the PM, Creamsteak.  Were you able to receive it, and send it to Serpenteye?


----------



## James Heard (Dec 5, 2004)

Zelda: Lyrn - it's Lynn according to the map I've been looking at isn't it(unless it's *ahem* a cartography error by lazy acolytes). If someone does claim the Empire of Lynn, I'd appreciate it if they'd go over my faction notes post and either let me have a chance to change my faction's interaction notes with Lynn - which, to be fair, aren't much in the notes. If Lynn is an expansionist civilization based upon someone's idea of Environmentalist Borg though, that's probably going to make a difference in the way the Mysticum Alliance thinks about its nearest neighbors to say the least. Right now I'm writing up myself as a sort of vast sleepy homeland of the elves filled mostly with OG Elves (capitalized) of Great Power (likewise). They could probably do stuff as long as they took their prune juice in the morning and lots of arthritis medicine. A more dangerous neighbor would suggest a more vibrant and youthful Mysticum though, as more younger elves and half-elves would have hearkened the call to protect the homelands. So, anyways, since we haven't started yet I'd appreciate an hour or so to heads up and revise. 

General Power Level Concern: I agree with Forsaken One, I think a more...sedate pace and power level might be in order in this IR (based solely on my reading of the 3rd IR) - I'd much rather have a game where we each spent long turns trying to get our plans in motion and achieve our ends rather than a nukefest of some sort. Disorderly factions having to spend power to move and being resistant to outside influence sounds fun.

Researcher trait: I think that might be a bit too scary, seeing how (as I understand it) certain nations will already be getting bonuses to their magic of various flavors thanks to the Arcane or Clerical (or did I misread/misremember?) traits. Stacking something like that would be obscene, though I think that there should be corresponding (but rare, who on Oerth has it besides Murlynd?) trait for technology.

Edena: Would you be interested in a GMail account? I've got six to give. Take it anywhere  I might even be able to tentatively set the thing up by bouncing myself invites, letting someone else bounce you the info via NLPM, and then you'd just sort of kick the password into submission. Or we could do it here and hope everyone on ENWorld is a nice person, I think they all are. Except me, except when I'm playing old elf hippies.

Now, I've got to reread the rules too. Because it's all Greek to me, and I barely speak Frat.


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## Zelda Themelin (Dec 5, 2004)

Yep, it would be kind of over my talents to play three major factions. Though since I know very little of that far land some of them might not be major except in the sense that they got a lot of empty wilderness. Big doesn't always make great.

That aside. Oriental-esque is not really my thing.
Since I am considering joining forces with Airwhale, it might still be interesting to have more than one land between two players. Not that they have to be both major. Just kind of being more safe than sorry. Other players might chime in and grab all that's left.

I am not so much into spelljamming either. I found it kind of confusing during my 2nd edition days. But both might work pretty well with Airwhale, dunno that.

I am not really very bright what comes to strategic gaming, never played risk or much civilization for that matter. It would be interesting to give this a try.
I still have most of the rules to read too. 

And Edena, hehe, my English is far from good.


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## Zelda Themelin (Dec 5, 2004)

Yep, it would be kind of over my talents to play three major factions. Though since I know very little of that far land some of them might not be major except in the sense that they got a lot of empty wilderness. Big doesn't always make great.

That aside. Oriental-esque is not really my thing.
Since I am considering joining forces with Airwhale, it might still be interesting to have more than one land between two players. Not that they have to be both major. Just kind of being more safe than sorry. Other players might chime in and grab all that's left.

I am not so much into spelljamming either. I found it kind of confusing during my 2nd edition days. But both might work pretty well with Airwhale, dunno that.

I am not really very bright what comes to strategic gaming, never played risk or much civilization for that matter. It would be interesting to give this a try.
I still have most of the rules to read too. 

And Edena, hehe, my English is far from good.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 5, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Not at all, Creamsteak.
> I just decided safe was better than sorry.  I didn't want to offend anyone, so I totally deleted the e-mails.  I will put them back on a permission basis, case by case.
> I have an almost complete list in my private word processor, and intend to send the list to Serpenteye as soon as he PMs me on Nutkinland and enables me to do so.
> Or, I could PM the list to you and you could send it to him (in which case, please post to my thread in Traditional Games in Nothingland, and I'll PM you based on that, and then you can e-mail it to Serpenteye.)  Because Serpenteye has requested I get it to him ASAP.
> ...




You don't comprehend what I'm saying (in the form of text).

Why are you unable to attain an email address. Why are you unable to find an email address that you can connect to through the internet.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 5, 2004)

> Now, I've got to go back and read the rules on page 13 again. (and again, and again, until I understand them. I won't totally understand them, and I will learn my mistakes soon enough, in the actual game! And that's ok, and how it should be. Or, at least, how it always is, with a new game! (sheepish look))






> Now, I've got to reread the rules too. Because it's all Greek to me, and I barely speak Frat.




I think I've got a pretty good handle on the rules, for the most part (this is not surprising, as I seem to have a strange ability to learn game systems really quickly.  Which is why I gotta ask: How come I'm no good at math, memorizing dates, or languages?   ).  If it's OK with serpenteye, I (or anyone else who thinks they understand) could field questions; the worst that happens is that we get it wrong and Serpenteye has to answer anyway, and if we're right or even mostly right it'll save him some work. 

In that spirit, Creamsteak, I'll answer your question:



> Second, would there be any benefits to attaining both 10th level magic AND psionics?






			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Psionics have a similar role as arcane magics and the two are therefore technically interchangable with each other, a matter or role-playing of no concern to the rules.




by saying that since, in all other aspects, Psionics and Magic are different only in flavor, I'd assume this extends to high level magics of either kind.  Spending PL to research "Magic" is the same as doing so for Psionics.

*takes off All Knowing Hat, which is oddly conical...*

I do have a question/suggestion of my own, though:
(I put the below in sblock so people won't have to scroll through it unless they want rules wonk discussion. )
[sblock]

The one thing I'm a little fuzzy on is nature of PL's.  I think there are some slight gaps in the rules that need to be filled in, but it's easily enough done.

If I've got it right:

At the beginning of a turn, we get a certain number of PP's, as determined by how developed our territories are and how much control we have over them, as capped by our tech level and the population.  Also at the beginning of the turn, we earmark things for certain uses, those being:

Military: You can use PPs to convert your population into Regular units.
Industrialization: You can use PPs to increase production in your territories.
Tech: You can use PPs to increase your tech level.

Once this is done, the turn proper commences.  This is where things start to get fuzzy.  You talk about "spending" PL's of various levels (you spend PL's to infiltrate a faction, Regular PLs to create Elite PLs, Elite PLs to create Epic PLs, and epic PLs to research magic).  But these PL's refer to people.  In terms of magic, as you've explained, this makes sense: the people in question are killed or seriously injured in the researching.  But what about when upgrading military units?  Does it really kill off, or cause the disbandment of, the other 9 units of 2-6 level people to get the one unit of 7-16 level people?  That's one hell of a training regimen .  What about infiltration?  Do you sacrifice regular military units in order to send spies in?

PLs make sense when they mean something other than military units, but the only point in the process that you've listed to turn PPs into PLs is when you recruit some of your populace to become professional soldiers.  Really, it seems to me not so much a point of confusion about how the rules work as noticing that you seem to have forgotten a passage.   You even wrote later:



> This time around PLs is a measure of disposable power that can be used at an immediate notice during the Turn. It represents your armies, _magical items and cold hard cash._ It's not tied to the territories, but to your faction as a whole.
> 
> ...
> 
> (That's a new thought for me. Using regular PLs for Infiltration would simplify the system considerably. No longer need you put specific PPts in reserve for Infiltration... Regular PLs, as the two other kinds of PL, can represent various kinds of currency (magical and otherwise), that in turn can be used to bribe and manipulate. In essence you spend "money" to infiltrate.)




I wrote the first part of this post before I went back and read this one of yours.    So the wording above may be a little off, but I think the idea it may bear returning to.  As is, PLs represent People as well as Resources, which means it's a little wonky to "spend" them at a rate of 10-to-1 in order to get better people or spies.   I'm trying to think of a way to tweak this (although you may disagree about the need to tweak it) that's elegant.  Would it be too complex to be able to "stockpile," converting PP into the "magic items and hard cash" form of PL without throwing population into the mix?  

Or perhaps that's what you do every time you create a PL (which is to say, you create some form of useful material wealth) and making regular armies is in fact the process of _combining_ a PL and some population (whatever it is, magic item or gold, it's sold and the money used to make weapons).  Of course, when the population is destroyed (i.e, killed in battle) the PL is lost because the equipment is destroyed too.  I think I like this best.

The way things would work under this system:

Replace the "military" step of the before-the-turn actions with the "stockpile" step.  PPs are converted into PLs as usual.  People have a certain amount of PL hanging around as a matter of course.  Still at the beginning of the turn, you earmark some of your PL to be wed to some of your population to create military units.  Like before when you could spend PP to get regular PLs, you can only do this at the beginning of your turn.  Any other PLs you keep.

If you disband a military unit, the PL remains.  To convert a low-level military unit to a higher-level military unit, you spend unwed PL's.  You would spend 9 PLs to turn a Regular "unit" (which replaces PL when referring to armies) into an Elite unit (for a total cost of 10) and you would spend 90 PLs to turn an elite unit into an Epic unit (totalling 100 PL).  This represents spending money on training as much as anything else, which is why you can't just disband an epic unit and get the PLs back (at least until you research a spell to turn their XP into GP ).  Infiltration requires a similar expenditure of loose PLs.  

Magic costs loose PLs for research costs, and should require the _presence_ of Epic units (you need to have 1 epic unit for each 100 PL you want to spend in a turn), and maybe a lesser expenditure thereof.  For example, say expenditure is 90% PL, 10% Epic unit.  Reaching the 10th level mark still costs 5000 PLs worth of effort, but that's 4,000 PL spent and 10 Epic units sacrificed to accidents.[/sblock]

On another note:



> Researcher trait: I think that might be a bit too scary, seeing how (as I understand it) certain nations will already be getting bonuses to their magic of various flavors thanks to the Arcane or Clerical (or did I misread/misremember?) traits. Stacking something like that would be obscene, though I think that there should be corresponding (but rare, who on Oerth has it besides Murlynd?) trait for technology.




You misread, a little.  There are no Arcane or Clerical traits.  Everyone has arcane magic (0-9th), but/so it doesn't give any bonuses.  Not everyone has divine magic, so it gives a +1 bonus to Militia, Regular, and Elite PLs and a +2 bonus to epic PLs.  And possesing epic spells, or having a Diety on your side, gives combat bonuses.

What I was preposing (or reminding the DM about his own proposal for) was making it slightly easier for some factions to research Magic.  Perhaps they get a 10% discount on research (requiring only 4,500 PLs to get 10th level spells) or perhaps there could be another trait called Arcane Might which means you count as having more Epic units then you do when casting 10th+ level spells (although since this wouldn't become relevant until you can actually _cast_ them, it'd be useless for a loong time and best combined with the research trait)

Just tossing out ideas to make small mage-based factions viable in the same way Infiltrator makes other smaller factions viable.  None of these may be needed, depending on how Serpenteye "stats them out". 



> I just decided safe was better than sorry. I didn't want to offend anyone, so I totally deleted the e-mails. I will put them back on a permission basis, case by case.




Edena, all the e-mails on my list (which is, I assume, where you got yours) were posted on this thread when asked for contact.  I assume you've got permission to _re_post them on the _same_ thread- or at least, I hope so, 'cause I sure did.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2004)

My last post of the night:  I am really tired.  It's 2 in the morning, and I should have been in bed 3 hours ago.

  James, thanks again for the gmail offer.  I may take you up on it.  Let me see if I can establish my own e-mail address tomorrow.  I appreciate your offer!  I may yet use it!  Tomorrow will decide it:  tomorrow I will attempt to create a standard e-mail address with my local ISRP.

  Creamsteak, I simply do not have an e-mail address.  I never created a new one after moving into temporary quarters before moving to Florida.
  As I just told James, I will rectify that tomorrow.  Dealing with the local ISRP will be most annoying, but I think I can manage it.  I hope!

  I'm very fearful, folks, that Serpenteye will be overwhelmed and burn out.  I (and Creamsteak) appreciate the overwhelming challenge of running an IR, and I am trying to give all the support I can to Serpenteye, in the form of direct information and indirect support in trying to help other players.  I can't do much, but I can try, and every little bit helps.

  William has stated he can be there, to a limited extent, for Serpenteye.
  William says he will be glad to be a source of campaign information for the setting for Serpenteye, should Serpenteye have any questions on Greyhawk names, places, and history.  William has a real knack for history and names!!!
  William is also very worried that Serpenteye will be whelmed and burn out, and wants to give what support he can.

  Could one of you relate that William wants to be supportive in this way to Serpenteye, so Serpenteye will know he has some backing there, and help there?

  Both I and William really want to make this thing work.  We know you do also.  So, we are just doing our best to try and help, in what little ways we can.  
  It's already taking it out of me - you might note my posts tonight are febrile, because I am very stressed out and tired and somewhat rattled - but I will stay in there and plug for Serpenteye and this IR, and fight to make it work and be fun for all of us.
  Even if I cannot figure out the rules, make a total embarrassment of myself on Turn 1, and get squashed into red goo!!

  Please remember all those powers yet unclaimed:

  The Kevellond League (Good)
  Nyrond-Urnst-Iron League Alliance (Good)
  Lortmil Alliance (Good)
  Ulek League (Good)
  Zingia (Unknown, off-map to the south)
  The Solistarim (Evil, northwesternmost part of map)
  All those others given by Serpenteye, such as Lynn (spelled it right this time, I hope.)

  I think, and this is just my opinion, that the more the merrier.  And it would enhance the IR if the remaining on-map powers were claimed.
  I have already claimed the drow, so I can't claim another power.  It wouldn't make sense for me to claim practically any other power anyways, since the drow are opposed to most other factions.  So, I'm sticking with the drow.

  Good night, everyone.  See you in the afternoon my time, tomorrow!

  Edena_of_Neith


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## William Ronald (Dec 5, 2004)

*Some observations and comments*

Hello, everyone:

I have been busy contacting people, and e-mailed everyone I could from the previous IRs.  While I don't know if I have recruited anymore players, one former IR player of note let me know he will try to stop by.  (I am not revealing whom, but I think all the old IR players will recognize this mover and shaker.)

Airwhale and Zelda:  You might want to share a faction or two on the map.  If I can help with any questions, e-mail me at williamwronald@aol.com.  



> *Edena of Neith originally posted:*
> SOMEONE NEEDS TO PLAY THE KEVELLOND LEAGUE, LORTMIL LEAGUE, ULEK STATES, AND THE NYROND-URNST CONFEDERATION. BEFORE SERPENTEYE GETS HIS GREEDY HANDS ON THEM!!!




This is a major issue.  If Serpenteye wants, I could play those factions for a shortwhile.  However, it would be very tiring after a while.  (For a while in the 3rd IR, I was running multiple factions while people were elsewhere.  It was tiring.)

Also, while we are fine tuning things, we could make claims on behalf of future players.  I suspect if we wait another week, which seems to be the case, we will likely have more people show up. (In the build up to the 3rd IR, I held onto a few things just for new people.  As I recall, Sollir Furryfoot and Uvenelei ended up gaining a lot of those territories.)  So, hopefully a few more people will show up before we start.  (Creamsteak has finals, and we can probably use a little more time to fine tune things. Plus, I want to make sure that Serpenteye has the time he needs.  I don't want anyone to burn out.)

Thomas Hobbes: As you already have some elven factions, you might consider taking Celene and the Ulek states.  

James Heard:  You might be interested in claiming some more terri

Xael:  You might want to claim Perrenland, as it borders the Yatils.  

Guilt_Puppy:  The map is incredible!!!  Also, as I used orange last time, I can use orange again.

A question for Serpenteye on quasi-deities and demi-deities.  Are they available for players to claim, as there is one on the map already?  There is one Baklunish demi-deity who might be appropriate to claim.  If not, no great deal.

Also, is the nation of Esmerin (giants and halflings, mentioned briefly in the LGG) available? Darkness had it in his Baklunish Confederation, which was kind of a neutral to good faction.

It also might be a good idea to have a preliminary PL list, and have an upper starting limit like Edena did in the 3rd IR.  (Under Edena's system, I think the upper limit in turn 1 was about 100 -120 PLs.) Some small factions, like Rhialto's Black Brotherhood, were very effective with low PLs.  So, I think the infiltrator organizations will have a role to play -- they may well have very different agendas from each other and perhaps some professional rivalry.  (In Eberron, the House that controls espionage split into two.)

I expect Serpenteye's Vecna to be quite terrifying. And I am looking forward to it.   

Also, here is a website for Greyhawk fans.  The Living Greyhawk Homepage can be a great resource for learning about the Flanaess.  

So, should I recap the events of the Greyhawk Wars up to the year 591 CY? (If this opens 20 years after the end of the Greyhawk Wars, the game will start in Common Year 604.)  Everyone, try to recruit someone.  

Also, from reading the rules (which may require a little more tinkering) I would like to propose that the unofficial motto of the IR could well be: Ad astra, per aspera.  (Latin: To the stars, through difficulty.  Or loosely translated, if you want something great, expect to work hard for it -- one way or another.)


----------



## William Ronald (Dec 5, 2004)

*Some observations and comments*

Hello, everyone:

I have been busy contacting people, and e-mailed everyone I could from the previous IRs.  While I don't know if I have recruited anymore players, one former IR player of note let me know he will try to stop by.  (I am not revealing whom, but I think all the old IR players will recognize this mover and shaker.)

Airwhale and Zelda:  You might want to share a faction or two on the map.  If I can help with any questions, e-mail me at williamwronald@aol.com.  



> *Edena of Neith originally posted:*
> SOMEONE NEEDS TO PLAY THE KEVELLOND LEAGUE, LORTMIL LEAGUE, ULEK STATES, AND THE NYROND-URNST CONFEDERATION. BEFORE SERPENTEYE GETS HIS GREEDY HANDS ON THEM!!!




This is a major issue.  If Serpenteye wants, I could play those factions for a shortwhile.  However, it would be very tiring after a while.  (For a while in the 3rd IR, I was running multiple factions while people were elsewhere.  It was tiring.)

Also, while we are fine tuning things, we could make claims on behalf of future players.  I suspect if we wait another week, which seems to be the case, we will likely have more people show up. (In the build up to the 3rd IR, I held onto a few things just for new people.  As I recall, Sollir Furryfoot and Uvenelei ended up gaining a lot of those territories.)  So, hopefully a few more people will show up before we start.  (Creamsteak has finals, and we can probably use a little more time to fine tune things. Plus, I want to make sure that Serpenteye has the time he needs.  I don't want anyone to burn out.)

Thomas Hobbes: As you already have some elven factions, you might consider taking Celene and the Ulek states.  

James Heard:  You might be interested in claiming some more terri

Xael:  You might want to claim Perrenland, as it borders the Yatils.  

Guilt_Puppy:  The map is incredible!!!  Also, as I used orange last time, I can use orange again.

A question for Serpenteye on quasi-deities and demi-deities.  Are they available for players to claim, as there is one on the map already?  There is one Baklunish demi-deity who might be appropriate to claim.  If not, no great deal.

Also, is the nation of Esmerin (giants and halflings, mentioned briefly in the LGG) available? Darkness had it in his Baklunish Confederation, which was kind of a neutral to good faction.

It also might be a good idea to have a preliminary PL list, and have an upper starting limit like Edena did in the 3rd IR.  (Under Edena's system, I think the upper limit in turn 1 was about 100 -120 PLs.) Some small factions, like Rhialto's Black Brotherhood, were very effective with low PLs.  So, I think the infiltrator organizations will have a role to play -- they may well have very different agendas from each other and perhaps some professional rivalry.  (In Eberron, the House that controls espionage split into two.)

On another matter, I think there should be some in game benefit to having trade relations with other powers. (The Baklunish do have a huge trading organization that operates in many states.) I will leave it to Serpenteye to decide what those benefits might be.  Perhaps just significant enough to make trade useful between two parties.

I expect Serpenteye's Vecna to be quite terrifying. And I am looking forward to it.   

Also, here is a website for Greyhawk fans., from the RPGA's own Living Greyhawk Campaign.  The Living Greyhawk Homepage can be a great resource for learning about the Flanaess.  (Different real world regions and countries run parts of the Flanaess, so you may have to hunt around to read up on your faction's country.)  I also made a few changes to the Campaign Maps and Other Resources link in my thread.  Some links I quickly checked no longer worked, but I added some new non-Greyhawk resources.

So, should I recap the events of the Greyhawk Wars up to the year 591 CY? (If this opens 20 years after the end of the Greyhawk Wars, the game will start in Common Year 604.)  Everyone, try to recruit someone.  

Also, from reading the rules (which may require a little more tinkering) I would like to propose that the unofficial motto of the IR could well be: Ad astra, per aspera.  (Latin: To the stars, through difficulty.  Or loosely translated, if you want something great, expect to work hard for it -- one way or another.)


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 5, 2004)

I just (via e-mail) tried to enticed a player of mine to join through a combination of threatening to break his knees and offering him XP.  I promise to not use these to influence him if he actually plays.   He loves Machiavelli, which means he's a good bet to play, although he make take some persuading to play any of the large good leagues .  Maybe he'll grab a neutral one.

Anyway,



> Thomas Hobbes: As you already have some elven factions, you might consider taking Celene and the Ulek states.




I already have Celene; if I had known the Ulek states were elven, I would've offered already.   Apparently, I need to research more.  If nobody else wants them, consider them claimed.



> So, should I recap the events of the Greyhawk Wars up to the year 591 CY?




Can't hurt and will almost definitely  help. 

Thanks again to Edena, doghead, WR, others, and most of all Serpenteye who are doing lots to get this thing to work.


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## William Ronald (Dec 5, 2004)

Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> I just (via e-mail) tried to enticed a player of mine to join through a combination of threatening to break his knees and offering him XP.  I promise to not use these to influence him if he actually plays.   He loves Machiavelli, which means he's a good bet to play, although he make take some persuading to play any of the large good leagues .  Maybe he'll grab a neutral one.
> 
> Anyway,
> 
> ...




Tell your friend that the good aligned powers can still be sneaky and make a decent living.  Good is not stupid.  Just have him read the 3rd IR for some of the stuff that the good and neutral parties pulled on their adversaries. (Nyrond and the Urnst states are good and neutral for the most part.)

There are elves, dwarves, and gnomes in the Ulek States.  They also border Celene and can help in any war against the Pomarj.  If you follow the Living Greyhawk link above, you can read up on them.  As can everyone else.  Remember, things will be somewhat different in this IR, but the link can take you to specific regions.  You just have to look for your country a little (I am more or less resigned to the thought that I am not going to dramatically boost sales of the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer.)

I also added a link to this thread in my sig.  So, hopefully, that will help with recruiting as well.


----------



## Xael (Dec 5, 2004)

Lots of posts here. Okay: 

 1. I have practically no knowledge of the world of Greyhawk or the Circle of Eight (other than there's actually 9 of them, and there's Mordenkainen etc.). Don't know if I'm supposed to stat them or list their levels or something (some people seemed to do this). Or make/choose on as a PC (like Iuz). I'm pretty sure that they're epic though...

 2. I'm somewhat confused about the rules, but I think I got the general idea. So one needs to sacrifice epic PLs (=units/characters) to research 10th level magic? Not good, I need to whip up some disposable armies. No way I'm changing the faction name to "The Circle of Three" or something after the first turn. 

  3. You can present my e-mail in the real format.



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> Xael:  You might want to claim Perrenland, as it borders the Yatils.



 Well, If I can go just claiming areas and it's close, then I quess I could claim it. Especially since there seem to be drow hanging around my mountains...


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 5, 2004)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> There are elves, dwarves, and gnomes in the Ulek States.  They also border Celene and can help in any war against the Pomarj.




Sounds good!



> If you follow the Living Greyhawk link above, you can read up on them.  As can everyone else.  Remember, things will be somewhat different in this IR, but the link can take you to specific regions.  You just have to look for your country a little.




The other place I'm looking is Canonfire, but that seems to be a TON of info which you have to sift through.  here is something that looks useful (it's a map, and overview of the history of, the entirity of Oerth!), and what it says about the Flanaess fits with what I knew, which seems to indicate it's up to date.  What it says about the far, far, far west, though, has little or no relation to the map with the Maer Mysticum.  Hmm.  Those who want to play in that area, take a look; it may give you ideas, and it may be the map, rather than the text I just linked to, is the outdated/innaccurate thing.  Or perhaps one talks about more small nations, while the text is explicitly an overview.  I dunno.  Since we're not sticking 100% to cannon, it's not a killer issue, and anyway, someone asked for info....

EDIT:  The map/info above, or those parts of it east of the Flannaes, is based at least partially on decidedly non-canon stuff.  Oh well.



> (I am more or less resigned to the thought that I am not going to dramatically boost sales of the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer.)




I often have trouble thinking of what to ask for for christmas, since my material needs are slim (or at least, my desire for "stuff" tends to be limited to internet access, and books, which for the most part can be got from the library).  This may well make the list, if only as a study guide for Liberation of Tenh story hour.


----------



## James Heard (Dec 5, 2004)

> James Heard: You might be interested in claiming some more terri



I thought about it, but Gigantea and Fireland seem to be sort of iffy as regards to the implied nature of the Mare Mysticum nations - sort of monsterish places. I thought about the Empire of Lynn too, until I realized how freakin' huge the place was and I backed off to something that was "only" the size of HALF the Flannaes. Then there's the players who haven't decided what they're picking, even though everyone's clamoring that the good nations of the Flan region should be taken up immediately I wouldn't wish upon any new player (including myself) the unenviable position of playing the "good guy at the bottom of the dogpile" surrounded by the majority of the players of the 5th IR playing evil factions. If someone wants to take a monolithic but defensible nation out here in the west I think it would be nice to let them have the choice. I think either Gigantea or Fireland would have to be recent conquests, and that would mean rethinking the nature of the Mysticum alliance as I envisioned it initially. 

Besides, my territory is freaking huge already. I already said that though, let it be said again.


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 5, 2004)

Well... I must admit I'm starting to feel guilty for taking on a minor, and in many ways counter-productive (since I'm actually adding another faction rather than being helpful and taking one on) faction when I have the time and inclination to do a lot more. So - assuming at this stage it would still be more help than harm for me to do so, I will allow the Shepherds in Darkness to fade gracefully back into the recesses of my imagination, and take on the Kevellond League instead. They sound interesting to me from what I've seen fo their doings in the 3rd IR.

 *scurries off to read vast amounts of Greyhawk information*

EDIT: Ummm... google searches for 'Kevellond League' are returning nothing except pages from the 3rd IR. Is it something invented for that? What provinces is it made up of? How can I find out more about it?


----------



## The Forsaken One (Dec 5, 2004)

> Do not believe that being far to the west makes you safe! That is not true!
> Out of sight is NOT out of mind. Anyone can look at the map above and see where your country is! And they WILL.
> We will not sit around and let you develop 10th level magic and nukes while we do nothing. No way! It isn't going to be that easy for you!



I've been there and done that, if you need any tips concerning that issue, feel free to contact me .


----------



## The Forsaken One (Dec 5, 2004)

*Important?  To Serp*



> EDIT: Ummm... google searches for 'Kevellond League' are returning nothing except pages from the 3rd IR. Is it something invented for that? What provinces is it made up of? How can I find out more about it?



William played it in the 3rd IR so you might wanna talk to him about it. He's quite serious and thourough in conducting his RPing buiseness. Allthough his speeches are kinda long now and then 

on another note:

Serpenteye might want to start up a new thread. With the Player and the factions they choose as first post and the rules in the second post. Then we dont have to scroll back to find them the whole time and it's more easy to keep up with a thread and find where you left off it it's under 10 pages.

Just a friendly piece of advice 

TFO out


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 5, 2004)

I've been directed to join this by a friend, and damned if it don't look too cool not to.  That being said, is there still room open?


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Dec 5, 2004)

Hi all! Edena has informed me of this game, and i am considering joining, despite being absorped by studies, girlfiend and three other onlne games. I am considering playing either a Solistarim or some Underdark races. Where can I find  info on the Solistarim? Serpenteye, maybe I could create a joint power with someone else, like you and Mr Draco did in 3rd IR?


----------



## The Forsaken One (Dec 5, 2004)

> I've been directed to join this by a friend, and damned if it don't look too cool not to. That being said, is there still room open?



There most certainly is room to spare and factions to pick! Gladly even! Please join in!



> I am considering playing either a Solistarim or some Underdark races.



AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHH!! IT'S HIM!!!


(Then I would suggest the Solistarim, practically every Underdark race that has soem power has been claimed already between Creamsteak and Edena I believe.)


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Dec 5, 2004)

It seems some underdark races are still not claimed, like Kuo-Toa and Duergar.


----------



## Creamsteak (Dec 5, 2004)

Well, that's because they are so vastly inferior to illithidkind. The Duergar shall be enslaved again, or wiped out completely. It matters not...

Welcome Melkor!


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Dec 5, 2004)

*Achhh ! My grandiose plans ...*

Serp, Edena, Will, Thom, GP. I love You all guys for the heart and effort that You are putting int our epic achievment. 

And since my comp is broken, I cannot contribute as much as I want ... and apologise humbly for that. 

I think that one issue needs explaination. Other was picked up by rest of the maginificient Players. 

Armies need Upkeep ! Even Undead ones ... Necromacers need expensive resouces etc. Vampires need fancy coffins, ghouls need meat. Army need fresh corpses ... for replacement of rotten ones. 

War should be expensive ! Very Expensive ! Guess why Iuz is living in backwater wasteland ? Not just because he's evil ... He's living in perpetual state of internal war with everything that breathes. So much evil races, evil humans, demons, elves and evil Boss just for good meansure. His hold is maybe seeming peaceful ... but in fact all it need to explode with violence is tiny spark. These huge armies, that I will posess to balance my ... unproductive country.    Are mostly serving as medieval equivalent of police forces. But Theocracy will be crushed, and Wolf-God would learn meaning of "Teufelkrieg". 

Anyone ... who understands rules, how about short term gains ? Pillage and juice out someone ... ( Permamently Burning out the land's PL's) to push out faster resouces, money, slaves etc. And leave desolated ruin behind ... 

I think that it may be achieved that way: You need army to pillage province, and this army would be useless for other actions ... troops are busy.   

At the start of next turn You are gaining additional Pl's but amount of additional PL's is destroying productivity of pillaged province by amount 1 to 1. And when it would reach 0 PL potential ... it meant that the province's economy in question was simply destroyed, not left even one standing stone ... woods cut out, or burned every people fled or killed or taken into slavery, or as cusine. And to rebuild it You need to allocate PL's from other sources. What od You think of this ?

Issue 2: Population. I would put it simply ... use spare PL's to improve wellbeing of Your people. For example, Iuz might build Colloseum so citizens might watch spilled blood and return home content ... and don't kill neighbourn out of boredom, today.   

Less deaths, imigration by fools who heard that in particular place streets are made of gold. Or that Iuz's soldiers eat warm meal every day !

Since setting is almost medieval, how with such quietly devastating magics like "Contagion" ? Disease spreading like wildfire may ruin many countries ...

And without Clerical Magic ... one word, without Iuz.  
Read history books about what Black Plague did to medieval Europe, sweetcheeks. 

But it is concerning me greatly in other possible fighting point. Battles ... For example, here is list of troubles that I spotted:

-What if enemy is fighting with superior tactics ? Iuz might destroy supply lines of overhelmingly stronger Fuoryndy army of expensive medieval Knights. During this time his goblin worg riders, being cheap and mobile would harass their enemies from afar, mostly by shotting voleys of arrows from safe distance and retreating out of sight of the Knights. Im open combat, Fuoryndy Elite units will crush Iuz's Regular gobbos packs. Fev days without supplies, no cleric to create food and water, morale dropping frustration growing ... all wells poisoned, no livestock to plunder. They sta to eat their own horses ! Goblins well fed, after many "wictories" as Iuz said morale hig ... And when my godling feel safe in knowing that Fuoryndians are too exchausted to put much a fight, slaughter them during the night !    :\ 

I will write more later. Kisses for Eclavdra.


----------



## The Forsaken One (Dec 5, 2004)

> It seems some underdark races are still not claimed, like Kuo-Toa and Duergar.



 Duergar are almost non existant if they are existant in Greyhawk at all. For the rest... Kua Toa are weak and low in numbers. In canon that is. But it's the IR so that's easily changed. I was just thinking in canon hehe so yup that's true and could make a cool Underdark alliance.

The Duergar most of all would fit brilliantly in the IR.... NE and LE dwarves who are OBSESSED with their crafts and works. They live endless lives of toil and craft deep under the world above them caring for nothing else. They could most singlemindedly chase after the secrets of technology and invention... Now I think of it, Duergar would be the perfect IR race and civilisation, even moreso then dwarves and gnomes due to the singlemindedness of their persuits. Where Kuo Toa fit into that, I don't know but still.

Hmmmm seems like the Duergar would make a fine faction indeed Melkor, just one that might fit some more dicipline, restraint and single mindedness then your last endeavour 

Grtz TFO.


----------



## The Forsaken One (Dec 5, 2004)

> Serp, Edena, Will, Thom, GP. I love You all guys for the heart and effort that You are putting int our epic achievment.
> 
> And since my comp is broken, I cannot contribute as much as I want ... and apologise humbly for that.
> 
> ...



I suggest we keep the game as simple as possible... with magic war tech and psionics along with infiltration and stuff the game is more then complicated enough. Especially at the start of the game and considering how things devellopped in the 3rd IR possibly even moreso later on.

Don't forget that these rules are just the basics, the real game is about strategy, politics and most of all DIPLOMACY. I once talked more then half of the world in supporting me after threatening to destroy 3 whole crystal spheres hehehehehehe....  

Really, you will want most of your ideas to be winged by the GM (Serp in this case) then that there are rules for them. It's annoying to have alot of rules and the existance of rules limits your possibilities. If you just be creative and let the GM wing and handle it and its effects things have more possibilities since there are no limits or bounderies to your ideas.

Rules can be broken, a GM's judgement not. Keep it simple is my advice.


----------



## Bugbear (Dec 5, 2004)

Greetings and salutations,

I recived WR's E-mail earlier this week and have been pouring over the thread and decifering the rules and have decided to say hi. I haven't decided if I want to partake in the festivites as of yet.

Oh and *Eluvan*, The 'Kevellond League' was an alliance of William's factions, consisting (IIRC) of Keoland, Gran Marc, The Duchy of Ulek, and the County of Ulek. It does not exist outside of the 3rd IR.


----------



## James Heard (Dec 5, 2004)

I'd just like to say that I'm working on a document compiling and um, clarifying (I hope) the rules, maps, and faction list for the 5th IR. I'm not sure what to do with it exactly. I started working on it so I could stop bouncing around the thread looking for things and so that I could understand the rules better. I'm loathe to post it for fear that I've made some error and because it's as unfinished as of right now, but if Serpenteye would like the file for review or if a significant amount of people think it's ok I might be convinced to post the WIP version here or in another thread. I'm unfamiliar with what ENWorld does to copy/paste formatting from rtf docs when you plop it down in the forum reply box, is it bad? Magnificent? Not worth the trouble? Is there a word count maximum on forum posts?


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 5, 2004)

Bugbear said:
			
		

> Greetings and salutations,
> 
> I recived WR's E-mail earlier this week and have been pouring over the thread and decifering the rules and have decided to say hi. I haven't decided if I want to partake in the festivites as of yet.
> 
> Oh and *Eluvan*, The 'Kevellond League' was an alliance of William's factions, consisting (IIRC) of Keoland, Gran Marc, The Duchy of Ulek, and the County of Ulek. It does not exist outside of the 3rd IR.




 Ah, that explains it just beautifully, thankyou. Well, if it's generally felt that it should also exist in the 5th IR, I'd be happy to take it on.


----------



## Bugbear (Dec 5, 2004)

*serpenteye Wrote* (way back on page one)


> the crystal sphere is cut off from all interactions with the rest of the Multiverse. Incidentally, the major Gods will also be cut off from the world and unable to influence the game.




 I'm curous, If worshipers are cut off from there gods, how are Divine spellcasters reciving their spells.  Normaly clerics (with the obvious exception of the cult of Iuz) would be limited to spells of 3rd level or less under these circumstances.

Edit: Nevermind, I found the ansewer further along:
*The gospel of Serpenteye:*


> Iuz would get a special advantage from being a demigod in this setting since all planar communications have been cut off and divine casters can no longer recieve spells from their deities in the outer planes




In other words, they don't. Heh, puts the theocracy of the pale at distinct disadvantage dontcha think.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Dec 5, 2004)

I don't think it's entirely necessary for it to exist, personally.  While the 3rd IR should be remembered and revered, it shouldn't necessarily restrict our options for this game.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 5, 2004)

Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> I just (via e-mail) tried to enticed a player of mine to join through a combination of threatening to break his knees and offering him XP.  I promise to not use these to influence him if he actually plays.   He loves Machiavelli, which means he's a good bet to play, although he make take some persuading to play any of the large good leagues .  Maybe he'll grab a neutral one.




Yes, quite, you can expect me to play.  Nothin' quite like getting to be a conniving bastard AND getting free XP .

Out of curiousity, is it accepted to make up a new faction?  If so I have my eye on a powerful psionic group, if not, I'll take another look at the current factions.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Dec 5, 2004)

A number of new factions have certainly been created, but one thing that we seem to be worrying about is making sure that all of the existing factions get assigned, so Serpenteye doesn't need to worry about running them as well as the game overall.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 5, 2004)

You could always choose to combine the two - for example, while the Cult of Ashardalon is (semi-)made up, it is the real power behind the throne of the United Kingdom.


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## Serpenteye (Dec 5, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Edena_of_Neith here.  Greetings to all my old friends and to the new people too.  Glad to meet you!
> 
> Almost 3 years ago, I ran the 3rd IR.  It went from early January to late March of 2001.
> We carried the 3rd IR to a point in the storyline where I felt I could stop.
> ...




You succeeded Edena, you succeeded at doing the impossible. I can honestly say (and I know that this sounds weird) that the 3rd IR has had a real impact on my life. I will try to do as much, pretentious as that may sound, but it will be easier for me because I have learned from you. I have learned from your successes and from your failures. And, as importantly, it does seem like I'm going to get a the support from a lot of our intelligent and dedicated players.
But yes, I have learned. I know what happens when the DM pushes himself too hard, trying to make everybody happy all the time when doing so is impossible. I know what happens when the DM burns out, lashes out, and still thinks of everybody else before he thinks about his own needs. And I know, so very, very well, that I'm not half the DM you are Edena.
I'll try to take it easy, handle the game with good humour and a certain degree of detachment and self-irony. I'll put in the hours, but I'll spread it out, split it up into smaller parts that are easier to handle to allow both myself and the players the time we need. I will try to make the game flow naturally in a way that both the rules and common sence indicates. I will try to use my meager skill in handling the English language in a way that should be adequate. (Although I know that my writing is sloppy and full of gramatical errors and misspellings.) But, honestly, I'm afraid that I will be unequal to the task.
Edena is a brilliant writer and story-teller. His writing can be both bone-chillingly terrifying and hilariously funny. He is passionate, compassionate, committed 100% to everything that I've seen him do. He is a man who gives of himself even when it does him actual bodily harm.
I am a selfish nihilistic little man, and I do this not primarily for any of your sakes but for my own. Your enjoyment means a lot to me because I do not enjoy failing, so I will carry this trough to the end and try to be as brilliant as I possibly can, but I will not kill myself over this. I am lying to you even now, for I do not truly know myself, but I will tell myself this lie and try to be calm in the face of whatever may come.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Now ...
> 
> Serpenteye is brighter than I am.
> Serpenteye has a stronger work ethic than I do (he can accomplish far more, per hour of work, than I can.)
> ...




You flatter me Edena, for I do not believe that I am more intelligent than you are. But if I have learned one thing in this life it is that intelligence counts for very little. What matters is how it's being used, and by helping me with all the big and small details of this IR you are making me effectively more intelligent, enabling me to put my thoughts to work where I'm needed.

The IR is about the players, you are absolutely right about that Edena. But the ultimate responsibility for it is mine. You are free to try anything, do anything, and it is your actions that determine the outcome of the game. I am free to turn you down, to be as fair or unfair as I have to be to make the game work. I am flawed. I am human. I will make mistakes, and so will you.

 I cannot do this without you. If I do I'm just a sad little man sitting home alone and playing with himself (the pun is intentional, and in very bad taste. ). 




			
				Creamsteak said:
			
		

> For the purposes of the IR I would define technology as anything derived from technology or plans brought to Oerth by the Demons. That seems both finite, clear, and pretty accurate for the IR.
> 
> Second, you didn't answer my earlier second question: Would there be any benefit to researching BOTH magic AND psionics?




Yes... That's reasonable, and would allow for spells that targeted such fiendish influences.

No. Magic and Psionics ultimately spring from the same source, the fundamental energy of the Multiverse. They take different paths and different expressions, but are not that dissimilar. High Magic taps into magic and Psionics from a primal and powerful level where the two energies are pretty much indistinguishable from each others.
Druidic magic springs from Life, a more evolved (and different) aspect of the primal energies that lie at the core of existance. And Divine Magic springs from a very highly evolved and complex source, the faith of the minds of sentient beings.

All you need to know, for all practical purposes, is: No, they are the same. 




			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> I picked out three jigsaw pieces off map precisely because I saw the whole invade a single part and die situation already. Another note related though: The Marchwards I talked about are the rulers of the "Kingdoms of the Marches" shown on the map here http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif that I was using as my basis for pickin' and choosin'.
> 
> The Mare Mysticum Alliance
> 
> ...




Very good. 




			
				The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> So, up to date again having read all of it  I'll post a description of my faction in the next few days. I'm kinda ill (like when haven't I been for the last 5 years but now just a tad worse then normal) and my study is killing me and I still have a D&D game to run tomorrow so it might take a few days to get it all together and with decent descriptions and stuff.
> 
> So please bare with me here hehe. Looks good btw, everything and all that  Just one thing I'd like to contribute as advice to Serp:
> 
> ...




You've read my mind Forsaken One. Now, go wash yourself, young man   .

Hope you get better soon. 





			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> ...
> I would ask about the second point- could I, for example, negotiate with an Infiltrator faction to infiltrate territory X and pass on the info for me; in exchange, I'll pay for the insertion cost, or such-and-such many regular PL's.  If I get this right, since regular PL that aren't converted to armies can represent any number of things, including money, this is a reasonable system.




Oh, yes. You can pass information around freely. You can even send each other gifts of money or volunteers, or demand wealth or territory in exchange for your assistance. That's all fine, but magic and technological infrastructure are not that easily transferable.  



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> One thing I did want to add, and didn't have time for, was that I think it would be cool (and, perhaps more to the point, balanced) to allow people to cast high-level spells over multiple factions if they both have the capability.  For example, both Celene and the Mare Mysticum (a purely hypthoetical alliance, I assure you) have access to 10th-level spells and X and Y number of Epic PLs.  Alone, they could cast a certain number of 10th-level spells per turn; together, their mages wreak untold devastation!
> 
> Very often in fiction, paticularly in the history of a world (random thought: after we wrap this up, run an RPG game set in post-IR greyhawk, if there is one), there's a line about "The mages of Elves and priests of men combined their power to..." etc., etc. and it would be great if we could throw that sort of thing in here.




That's perfectly all right. As long as both factions have the ability to cast spells they can do so together. But you will find that the spell-progression in my rules do not usually reward such cooperation, except in the circumstance where one or both of the factions do not have enough PL to cast a spell of a spell-level they have researched.
Actually planning to use this as a strategy requires you to put a lot of trust in your fellow players, for if they would betray you you would suddenly find yourself in a great deal of trouble. Can you really trust anyone that much, when their suggestion of such a cooperation might well be a trap to make you into their helpless victim? Even people who present themselves as Good may harbour Evil in their heart, just waiting to be unleashed on the unsuspecting. There can be alliances, and counter-alliances, double and triple agents. Who can you really trust...? (Muahaha)




			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> To return to something you said earlier, perhaps small mage-centric factions like the Circle of Eight should have a Researcher trait, to go along with the small rogue-centric Infiltrators, allowing them to get more bang for their epic PL buck.  This would allow them to compete with their larger neighbors in a way similar to the way Infiltrator does.  This may or may not be required, depending on how you "stat out" the territories and forces they control.




I've considered that. The problem is that those factions might manage to make themselves quite powerful by skillful play, and that every IC they captured would be twize as powerful for them as it would be for any other faction. It would encourage, or if the circumstances are pressing even force, other factions of similar alignment and apparent goals to clear the way for that Researcher faction, by directly or indirectly donating power to them. Donating wealth, handing over conquered provinces, defending them from attackers enabling them to put everything they have into research... The ways are many, and I cannot ban them all or I may as well make you all into my personal NPCs.

A similar thing happened in the 3rd IR. Oerth was under threat from Vecna and the goodly factions in the Alliance of Oerth needed to get 10th level magic as quickly as possible to counter that threat. So they looked to their most powerful ally, Forrester of the Torillian Commonwealth, and directly gave of their own power to give him 10th level magic. Forrester defeated Vecna and the horrors he had unleashed and then he was pulled in (mostly against his will because everyone still needed him so) into becoming the judge, jury and executioner of the IR. The Evil factions (including my own) looked on in hatred and disgust, and the Good factions became increasingly frustrated with their own situation in the shadow of Forrester and the fact that they themselves had enabled him to reduce them to a lesser degree of relevance. Few people, not including Forrester himself, were very happy with the situation. 

(That's my interpretation of the situation and everybody's posts about it. My perspective is not the only one, or the most correct one. And I intend no offense to anyone, because nobody was truly to blame, the situation simply got rather difficult.)

I know that you are perfectly capable of finding ways around the intent of my rules, there's not one stupid person among us, but allowing that trait would make it too easy for you. The consequences, which you'll see if you translate my example into your own situation in this IR, would be negative for the game.



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Some thinking aloud: Your output is Industry and the number of PPs you generate, basically.  So what is trade with other countries?  The scale actually seems large enough for business to matter a little (hey, each turn is a quarter!), but on the other hand, not matter _that much._  Probably best to keep it abstract.  Although it occurs to me that one way to represent trade is to voluntarily trade some control of a territory.  So the Kevelond League gets 1 point of a territory of the Baklunish league and Baklun gets 1 point of a territory.  There's no real benefit to either side, but it makes the co-dependent and might be a good sign of trust, a gesture of goodwill, a strengthening of bonds, etc., etc.  It may or may not be worth doing in any case.  Any other thoughts on the matter?




You can hand over territory to each others, but your population would probably resent being traded around like cattle.  Recently conquered populations might not care, or if they care that won't make much difference.

Most countries trade with each others on a capitalistic level, between individuals. It is abstracted and reflected in the general productivity of your provinces. Under normal, peaceful, conditions it will be assumed that there is a certain level of internal and international trade. In times of war, or other times of chrisis, trade will be affected and recessions may occurr under any circumstance. The IC of your provinces will perhaps fluctuate a little, but that's minor and need not really cause any serious concern. Ignore it if you want, I'll probably forget about it. (No big deal. It's only brought up because you asked about it )



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Edena- Thanks for the historical and first-hand view of trying to run this thing.  I like to think I would have been careful and polite before, but I must admit I never actually thought real hard about the _out_ of game logisitics of the IR.  Thanks again to Serpenteye, doghead, William Ronald, Edena, and everyone else who takes some time to pitch in.




And thank you too for helping. 



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> As an aside, I'm assuming anyone who made their e-mails available to be contacted about the IR doesn't object to having them up; as I eventually figured out from others on this board, the logic runs that there are programs scanning messageboards and other likely places for e-mail addresses and adding them to spam lists, and they can be fooled by changing the usual [username]@[domain].com format.  So by all means, feel free to post the e-mail addresses in this list I compiled, but on this messageboard I've picked up the habit of [dot]ing my .s and [at]ing my @s.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...




It would be best if everything but the most secret of plans eventually found their way to the IR-threads, for the sake of making it a good read, but you don't have to post your semi-IC conversations and negotiations on the board.

 I only really need to be told what you have agreed to and with whom and only if you believe you need me to know. If I don't know something I'll do nothing about it and if that's what you want that's what you'll get.
Not that I will blab about your plans to anyone or in the thread itself, of course, by my brain can only hold so much information.

Generally I'd have to say your PCs are powerful and cunning enough to find ways to talk to each others without spies finding out about it (unless you want them to find out about it, or are being sloppy). But as soon as you put anything into motion as soon as it goes from talk to action you will have to tell me, or it simply will not happen.




			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> That could be fun. I don't have much experience with those factions of Oerth that are left. (well few I am, but they are the minor ones).
> Heavenly empire oriental theme is pretty cool, but also something that would need a bit more information to on for me. I am not really informed about oriental mythos.
> 
> Some of those off-map factions might be cool too, not much is know so we'd need to ask Serpentseye what he has determined about them, and how much is up to players.
> ...




That's too much for anyone, sorry. No player will get a claim that powerful granted. You can pick one and Airwhale can pick one, but that way you'd still be two separate factions. You could cooperate with each others but you couldn't share everything.

Feel free to make up anything you want about your faction (within reason). That goes for all players, because 20 years have passed since the current official time in Greyhawk. A lot could have happened since then. (But please keep the really outrageous stuff to the IR itself. )





			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, it is necessary to create an SN on Nothingland to PM me there.
> Once you have created an SN, just find a thread of mine there (there is one in the Traditional Games forum, and it is about this 5th IR) and click on my SN.  Then you will see the option of PMing me.
> Until you do that, I cannot communicate privately with you.
> I would like to privately communicate with you as soon as possible.
> ...




Heh, . Thanks for reminding me about Nothingland, it had totally slipped my mind. Feel free to ask if there's anything in the rules that's unclear to you. If I've espressed myself oddly I need to know so that I can simplify and make it more understandable.

Thanks for the compliment. 
 But not all rulers are as aware of the world as you players are. Some of them are conservative or confused, overly proud or overly cautious, and won't truly understand what's going on, what's changed and how.
Other NPCs know just as much as you do. They know exactly how the world works and they are ambitious and powerful enough to act on that knowlege. They are the ones to look out for. Some of them will be obvious threaths, and others will bide their time...



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Take a look at this map:  http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif
> 
> As you can see, both the Empire of Lyrn and the Celestial Imperium are HUGE empires, each the size of the entire Flanaess!
> I believe both are Major Factions.  Powerful Factions.
> ...




Quite right... But you can only share one Major power.




			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> General Power Level Concern: I agree with Forsaken One, I think a more...sedate pace and power level might be in order in this IR (based solely on my reading of the 3rd IR) - I'd much rather have a game where we each spent long turns trying to get our plans in motion and achieve our ends rather than a nukefest of some sort. Disorderly factions having to spend power to move and being resistant to outside influence sounds fun.




That's my preference as well.
 Keep in mind that Epic PLs will be quite limited for most factions from the start and that it takes time to upgrade enough Regular PLs to make a difference. Your Epic and Elite PLs will be your most valuable asset, and using them frivolously is taking a dangerous risk. They can be killed by a lucky blow from a Regular army, and there's no raising the dead for anyone in the beginning of the game. Without them as a mobile reserve your faction will be very vulnerable. Perhaps most fighting is best left to the relatively expandable Militias and Regulars?
10th level magic is expensive, and noone will have enough resources to get it within the first few turns.



			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> Researcher trait: I think that might be a bit too scary, seeing how (as I understand it) certain nations will already be getting bonuses to their magic of various flavors thanks to the Arcane or Clerical (or did I misread/misremember?) traits. Stacking something like that would be obscene, though I think that there should be corresponding (but rare, who on Oerth has it besides Murlynd?) trait for technology.




(You misremembered. It's a lot to keep track on, huh?   )
Researching technology or magic are the mains way to increase your power in the IR. Infiltration, by contrast, is only really viable as the main source of power for a handful of factions. It's relatively expensive for normal factions, but it enables a traditional DnD niche to be filled by giving the trait to a few underground organizations.



			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> Now, I've got to reread the rules too. Because it's all Greek to me, and I barely speak Frat.




Can I clarify in any way?

Regardless, I think that once you see the rules in play most of you will catch on pretty quick. Turn 1 will be a test-run for all of us. (A test-run of deadly serious chaotic fun, but a test-run nevertheless. ) 



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> That aside. Oriental-esque is not really my thing.
> Since I am considering joining forces with Airwhale, it might still be interesting to have more than one land between two players. Not that they have to be both major. Just kind of being more safe than sorry. Other players might chime in and grab all that's left.
> 
> ...
> ...




Any one of the Major nations of the west will make you two quite powerful. 
If you want to play two factions and be closely allied you can do that, but I don't want you to be too strong from the start.

The nations in the inlands will be mostly desert or dry plains, because there's such a long distance to the sea, but they make up for it in size.

...

And your English is good enough. As good or better than my own.




			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> I think I've got a pretty good handle on the rules, for the most part (this is not surprising, as I seem to have a strange ability to learn game systems really quickly.  Which is why I gotta ask: How come I'm no good at math, memorizing dates, or languages?   ).  If it's OK with serpenteye, I (or anyone else who thinks they understand) could field questions; the worst that happens is that we get it wrong and Serpenteye has to answer anyway, and if we're right or even mostly right it'll save him some work.
> 
> In that spirit, Creamsteak, I'll answer your question:




Great.  Thanks. And your answer is correct, so yes; You can be my rules-answer-guy. (As can anyone else who's pretty sure their answer is right, discussion is a great help to facilitate understanding.) 




			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> The one thing I'm a little fuzzy on is nature of PL's.  I think there are some slight gaps in the rules that need to be filled in, but it's easily enough done.
> 
> If I've got it right:
> 
> ...




Quite right. 



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Once this is done, the turn proper commences.  This is where things start to get fuzzy.  You talk about "spending" PL's of various levels (you spend PL's to infiltrate a faction, Regular PLs to create Elite PLs, Elite PLs to create Epic PLs, and epic PLs to research magic).  But these PL's refer to people.  In terms of magic, as you've explained, this makes sense: the people in question are killed or seriously injured in the researching.  But what about when upgrading military units?  Does it really kill off, or cause the disbandment of, the other 9 units of 2-6 level people to get the one unit of 7-16 level people?  That's one hell of a training regimen .  What about infiltration?  Do you sacrifice regular military units in order to send spies in?
> 
> PLs make sense when they mean something other than military units, but the only point in the process that you've listed to turn PPs into PLs is when you recruit some of your populace to become professional soldiers.  Really, it seems to me not so much a point of confusion about how the rules work as noticing that you seem to have forgotten a passage.   You even wrote later:




... (This is hard...) 

Ehh, true. The prospect of killing off tens of thousands of your soldiers to train a handful of them into Epics would be unpalatable to most factions. Even if PL also represents your wealth and equipment most of it will always be in the form of the mortal flesh of your soldiers.
 I wrote the rule with the intention that your production should not be immediately convertable into high-level individuals. One million tons of grain does not an archmage make, though it can feed and pay an army. And I wanted there to be a delay for mechanical reasons too, to make the factions more different from each others and to make it less attractive to max-out industrialization and then put everything at once into getting Epic PLs and 10th level spells. Hmm, what to do, what to do?

Let's say that the training regimen is very demanding. The only way to learn new skills and abilities in DnD is to gain experience points. The main way of gaining experience points, as it is presented in the DnD rules, is killing things... (and the reasoning breaks down... It would lead to the position that Epic PLs could only be given to armies that had survived hundreds of battles against an enemy of 1/4 of their strength... Absurd, and a nightmare of paperwork.) 

Sorry.
I do not know how to explain this in a logical way, nor do I know how to change the rules so that they would make sense. I'm afraid the only way the rules would make sense from every possible perspective is that they were made ten times as complicated. 

Let's say that a lot of the soldiers flunk-out of Elite-school, those who survive it) turn to drinking and become useless bums. Eh no...

*I've got it! Eureka!*   It's expensive, very very expensive, to train Elite and Epic soldiers or breed and raise Elite and Epic monsters. So expensive, in fact, that you cannot afford to maintain your army in its current strength (having an army is expensive, though this is also abstracted). You cannot afford to pay or feed all your soldiers or to maintain their weapons and supply them with ammunition, clothing, toothbrushes, wenches, spirits and so on. So some of them will have to be sent home. But since you've still spent a lot of money to keep them in the army you don't get any PPts back when you send them home. 
You can only train people who already have the basic required skills, thus only Regulars or Elites respectively, and you have to train a lot of people to get a small number of graduates. And yes, the training regimen is very demanding and a lot of those who enter it are killed or physically and mentally crippled.

It's not perfect, but the best I could do on a not-so-short notice. *whew!*  

I do realize that it's unpalatable, especially for the Goodly factions (who we happen to need a lot more of  :\) , but you don't have to role-play it that way...  

And yes, it costs people, as well as money, to Infiltrate your enemies. Espionage is a deadly business.





			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> I wrote the first part of this post before I went back and read this one of yours.    So the wording above may be a little off, but I think the idea it may bear returning to.  As is, PLs represent People as well as Resources, which means it's a little wonky to "spend" them at a rate of 10-to-1 in order to get better people or spies.   I'm trying to think of a way to tweak this (although you may disagree about the need to tweak it) that's elegant.  Would it be too complex to be able to "stockpile," converting PP into the "magic items and hard cash" form of PL without throwing population into the mix?
> 
> Or perhaps that's what you do every time you create a PL (which is to say, you create some form of useful material wealth) and making regular armies is in fact the process of _combining_ a PL and some population (whatever it is, magic item or gold, it's sold and the money used to make weapons).  Of course, when the population is destroyed (i.e, killed in battle) the PL is lost because the equipment is destroyed too.  I think I like this best.
> 
> ...




I should have read this part first. It's actually quite good. It wouldn't add a lot of complication to the system to add one more step in the creation of PLs and one more variable to the research of magic. I would have to use another word for it to reduce confusion, or I could just widen my definition of Power Points.
Now I feel like an idiot. But that's a good thing, indicative of the quality of our players.  Kudos. 

(I'm not being sarcastic here, though I realize I may seem that way because I'm tired, have a head-ache and don't feel too bright right now. You have made a real and constructive contribution to this game Thomas, and I'm grateful for that.)




			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> On another note:
> 
> Edena, all the e-mails on my list (which is, I assume, where you got yours) were posted on this thread when asked for contact.  I assume you've got permission to _re_post them on the _same_ thread- or at least, I hope so, 'cause I sure did.




You, any and all of you, have my permission to post your own E-mails to this thread, or repost the personal E-mail that someone else has posted on this thread.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 5, 2004)

Okay, I need to read the whole thread so that I'm up on the rules, but I think I like the idea of combining two faction/ideas, so I'm thinking a hidden cabal of powerful psionics behind a current faction (which faction, well, I haven't read enough to decide).

Give me a day or so and I'll be able to be more specific.


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Dec 5, 2004)

How about this?

Gallador`s Concord: Gallador The Undying King, Master of The Night Eternal is an ancient Vampire who was banished to the Underdark centuries ago . For ages ha has waged a war of conquest and deception, and now with the current dramatic events, his attention is brought back to the surface world!

I would claim:

-Duergar( they have autonomy, but their leaders are bribed, terrorized and compelled by Gallador, like Roman divide and conquer)

-Kua -Toa

-Goblinoids and other servitor races not yet claimed by Creamsteak or Edena.

-Court of The Eternal Night!- Vampire Children of Gallador, organized in feudal/dynastic system-power is usually based on proximity to Gallador, like generations in Vampire RPG). 

Lesser Undeath Armies.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 5, 2004)

Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> Thanks for the nice comments, all... Been working on it more, and while it ain't bug-free, I think the next edition is ready to show off  ... http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-view.php will be the map that players ought to be looking at (map-edit is useful for serp, on the other hand.)
> 
> I noticed Edena made a comment about "jigsaw puzzle" infiltration... Not sure if it's in direct reference to the map or not, but it reminds me of something I've been meaning to bring up: I hope this map will be a useful tool, but in no way do I want or intend for it to influence actual game mechanics. Meaning I assume and hope that serp is keeping his own track of territories owned and conquered, in a manner which can be more or less detailed as the case warrants... So just because, to stick with the example, the 12 drow cities aren't separated by black lines and filled in with color, shouldn't mean that they aren't unique places, or that they can only be infiltrated/conquered all-at-once. The map should be useful for visualization and for reference, but by no means is it intended to be a game board or other definitive description of the state of the game.
> 
> ...




The map is a very useful tool. But no, it won't influence the game mechanics, though it will make the game easier for everyone. Just because something's not on the map doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There will be lists for all that. 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> My last post of the night:  I am really tired.  It's 2 in the morning, and I should have been in bed 3 hours ago.
> 
> James, thanks again for the gmail offer.  I may take you up on it.  Let me see if I can establish my own e-mail address tomorrow.  I appreciate your offer!  I may yet use it!  Tomorrow will decide it:  tomorrow I will attempt to create a standard e-mail address with my local ISRP.
> 
> ...




I may be on fire, but I'm not burning out.   

I really do appreciate all your (players in general specific) help. Even though I have quite a decent knowledge about the setting I'm finding that my time is too limited to do much studying of all the various sites. Most of my IR-time is spent answering posts, and by doing so analyzing and learning my own rules and getting to know the players better.
 I will contact you on Nothingland, I will make a list of the factions and the IC of the territories, I will edit the rules becuase Thomas' suggestions had a lot of merit, and I will post a new thread because this one is becoming too long. There's a great deal of things that I have to do. And I will do them all in due time.




			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> Hello, everyone:
> 
> I have been busy contacting people, and e-mailed everyone I could from the previous IRs.  While I don't know if I have recruited anymore players, one former IR player of note let me know he will try to stop by.  (I am not revealing whom, but I think all the old IR players will recognize this mover and shaker.)
> 
> Also, while we are fine tuning things, we could make claims on behalf of future players.  I suspect if we wait another week, which seems to be the case, we will likely have more people show up. (In the build up to the 3rd IR, I held onto a few things just for new people.  As I recall, Sollir Furryfoot and Uvenelei ended up gaining a lot of those territories.)  So, hopefully a few more people will show up before we start.  (Creamsteak has finals, and we can probably use a little more time to fine tune things. Plus, I want to make sure that Serpenteye has the time he needs.  I don't want anyone to burn out.)




Great work, WR, thanks . 




			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> A question for Serpenteye on quasi-deities and demi-deities.  Are they available for players to claim, as there is one on the map already?  There is one Baklunish demi-deity who might be appropriate to claim.  If not, no great deal.
> 
> Also, is the nation of Esmerin (giants and halflings, mentioned briefly in the LGG) available? Darkness had it in his Baklunish Confederation, which was kind of a neutral to good faction.




Generally quasi and demi-deities would be unwilling to join a faction as subordinates, but would be more than pleased at the opportunity to lead a major faction by themselves (or at least as the most important of many). It's not a matter of alignment, for the most part, but of pride. Humble deities are few and far between.

Esmerin? (I remember that one) Is it on either of the maps? Then yes. If it's not on any map, then no it cannot be claimed until we've sold out on more attractive real-estate.



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> It also might be a good idea to have a preliminary PL list, and have an upper starting limit like Edena did in the 3rd IR.  (Under Edena's system, I think the upper limit in turn 1 was about 100 -120 PLs.) Some small factions, like Rhialto's Black Brotherhood, were very effective with low PLs.  So, I think the infiltrator organizations will have a role to play -- they may well have very different agendas from each other and perhaps some professional rivalry.  (In Eberron, the House that controls espionage split into two.)
> 
> I expect Serpenteye's Vecna to be quite terrifying. And I am looking forward to it.
> 
> ...




Since I'm assigning PLs and ICs after I've assigned territories (shouldn't do that I know, but that's the way it works out) I only have to keep in mind the general power of a territory in question before I allow anyone to claim too much. I've already had to turn several claims and suggestions to claims down for the sake of balance. There's no set limit, since I decide on a case to case basis.

Please do write a recap of the history of the Grewhawk Wars and the aftermath. That's information all of us could benefit from and it's better to have it here than off-site.

On the topic of Vecna:  ...




			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> Also, from reading the rules (which may require a little more tinkering) I would like to propose that the unofficial motto of the IR could well be: Ad astra, per aspera.  (Latin: To the stars, through difficulty.  Or loosely translated, if you want something great, expect to work hard for it -- one way or another.)




 
A little tinkering? Indeed, it does seem that they are difficult to understand for a lot of our players. Ahh... It's a work in progress.




			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> I just (via e-mail) tried to enticed a player of mine to join through a combination of threatening to break his knees and offering him XP.  I promise to not use these to influence him if he actually plays.   He loves Machiavelli, which means he's a good bet to play, although he make take some persuading to play any of the large good leagues .  Maybe he'll grab a neutral one.
> 
> Anyway,
> 
> ...




Break his knees. That way he will have more time to play the game...

I would want the player of the Lortmils to get the Uleks, they fit better together racially and geographically, but if we get no player of the Lortmils they're yours.
Hmm, would that make you too powerful since you're the only player who has access to significant amounts of druidic magic? ... Nah, I guess not.

(Thanks )



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> Lots of posts here. Okay:
> 
> 1. I have practically no knowledge of the world of Greyhawk or the Circle of Eight (other than there's actually 9 of them, and there's Mordenkainen etc.). Don't know if I'm supposed to stat them or list their levels or something (some people seemed to do this). Or make/choose on as a PC (like Iuz). I'm pretty sure that they're epic though...
> 
> ...





1. You only need detailed knowlege about the characters in question for the purpose of RP, I'll consider them all Epic cause they're major characters in the setting and presumably close enough in level.

2. It may or may not work that way, entirely. I'll have to look over those rules again.

3. Good. 



			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> Besides, my territory is freaking huge already. I already said that though, let it be said again.




True. You're already powerful.
-
All places on the map need not be claimed. What's important is that most significant areas on the main continent are claimed. Not all pieces of Oerth are particularly civilized or even important.



			
				Eluvan said:
			
		

> Well... I must admit I'm starting to feel guilty for taking on a minor, and in many ways counter-productive (since I'm actually adding another faction rather than being helpful and taking one on) faction when I have the time and inclination to do a lot more. So - assuming at this stage it would still be more help than harm for me to do so, I will allow the Shepherds in Darkness to fade gracefully back into the recesses of my imagination, and take on the Kevellond League instead. They sound interesting to me from what I've seen fo their doings in the 3rd IR.
> 
> *scurries off to read vast amounts of Greyhawk information*
> 
> EDIT: Ummm... google searches for 'Kevellond League' are returning nothing except pages from the 3rd IR. Is it something invented for that? What provinces is it made up of? How can I find out more about it?




You don't have to think in those terms. What's more helpful than anything else is having fun and playing your faction well. As long as you do that you're not being counter-productive. You can play whatever you would enjoy the most. Nobody has the right to pressure you into anything, not even I.
Now, if you really want to play the Kevellond League that's great too. You're in for quite an intense game as a Major power with a great potential but a lot of dangerous neigbours. It will not get boring (unless I  up completely )
William Ronalds and Edena know a lot about the League, but you're free to put your own flavour to the mix. 




			
				The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> William played it in the 3rd IR so you might wanna talk to him about it. He's quite serious and thourough in conducting his RPing buiseness. Allthough his speeches are kinda long now and then
> 
> on another note:
> 
> ...




Long but full of substance.

I think I do want that, yes. Good advice.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Dec 5, 2004)

Melkor: Most of the goblinoid servitor races actually fall under the purview of the Wolf God. Any that you could find would be from the deepest parts of the Underdark, such as quaggoth or grimlocks.


----------



## The Forsaken One (Dec 5, 2004)

So, read up till here. Just a marking post for me to know where to start reading again tomorrow  Gnight all.


----------



## Eluvan (Dec 6, 2004)

Alright. I've done some reading, and in the spirit of community and helping out the IR in general (well, that and I think it would be cool ) I hereby relinquish my claim to the Sepherds of Darkness. Instead I would like to claim Keoland, the Gran March, the Duchy of Ulek, and Sterich - collectively, the League of Athyr. I don't want to take the Kevellond League per se because, as Anabstercorian said, it would be nice to pay the 3rd IR the respect it deserves and then move on and come up with our own ideas. If anyone feels that I've screwed this up (or my understanding of the politics and geography of the area is somehow flawed), please tell me and I'll revise my ideas. I realise that most everybody else here knows more about the setting than I do, so any and all input is appreciated. Similarly, if people have a problem with the Kevellond League failing to make an appearance in this IR, tell me and I'll start over.

 PC: Arden Leonson, King Arden I of Keoland and High Councillor of the League of Athyr, Human Paladin 32

 Following the Greyhawk War, Keoland was left in sorry shape. Once the most powerful and influential land in the entirety of the Sheldomar valley, in the war that was to shape the future of much of the Flanaess it had no cohesive policy and achieved nothing. In negotiations, the leader's indecisiveness proved sufficient to ensure that Keoland's allies were overrun whilst King Skotti dithered and wondered whether to interfere. Militarily, the once-great land suffered losses and humiliations on all sides and lost territory and influence. 

 Post-war, the land found itself in a weaker position than it had been for many years since. It badly needed time to rebuild and regenerate its economy, and confidence in the country's rulers was low after their mistakes in the war. When Skotti was assassinated in a plot by Cedrian of Dorlin to take the throne, the country descended into civil war. The noble houses squabbled amongst themselves for power, and for some time disorder reigned. 

 When finally this was curtailed, it occurred in dramatic fashion. Arden Leonson, the youngest son of a minor noble house in the Gran March, marched into Niole Dra with a small but resplendent contingent of knights and, nervous but determined, stood up in the town square and announced that he had been sent a vision from Heironeous showing him that he must unite Keoland under his banner and restore order and greatness to the country once again. He spoke with courage, power, and conviction, but of course it amounted to very little. He stood no chance of convincing the people that mattered that he should be handed control of the country. 

 He persevered, however. At first he had little success. But on the occassion of his seventh speech in the capital of Keoland, his divine mandate was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. As he spoke, the clouds above him parted and a sunbeam reached down to touch him. Bathed in divine radiance he continued his speech with ever-increasing fervour, and as he did so his audience watched stunned as a Celestial host numbering several hundred descended and knelt behind him, bowing their heads to the young knight. 

 The result was electric. Word travelled across the country lightning-fast that a messiah had come, a Paladin with a divine mandate to rule the country. Supporters flocked to him, and though he still had a struggle ahead of him, he eventually succeeded in taking the Throne of the Lion and restoring peace and order to the land, as well as using his heritage to reforge strong links with the Gran March.

 He did not rest long on his laurels, however. He led the country wisely and well, and under his leadership it prospered once again. In his third year on the throne, as the country's affairs were once again seeming in order, disaster struck as the creatures overruning Sterich set their sights on eastward expansion. The County of Flen and the March of Mandismoor came under attack, and it was all the Keoish forces could do to slow their relentless progress. 

 Arden made a spectacular speech asking for aid from his immediate neighbours, appealing to his already strong alliance with the Gran March and bidding the County of Ulek and the Duchy of Ulek to imagine how things would be if they were faced with the prospect of worrying not only about the Principlality's struggle against the Orcish hordes, but were faced with the immediate prospect of monstrous invasion from the West as well. 

 The Duchy of Ulek and the Gran March both responded by sending strong military forces to aid Keoland in their efforts to push the invaders back. The County of Ulek, however, perhaps feeling secure in its more remote location from Keoland, sent its sympathies but nothing else. The aid that was sent was enough, however, and the monstrous atatckers suffered a number of crushing defeats and wer epushed back. Feeling that the threat of the monsters of Sterich could no longer be allowed to exist on Keoland's doorstep, and that Keoland should make good on its obligation to aid Sterich in its time of need, Arden then launched a retributive crusade to push the evil creatures out of Sterich and allow its people to return home. He was successful, and with Keoland's help Sterich has been able to restore itself to some semblance of a functioning nation once again. 

 With the recent cataclysmic events, the alliance between these four lands has been renewed. The have each felt that they need an additional bulwark of strength in these times, and have rallied together under Arden's banner, calling themselves the Kingdom of Athyr, meaning 'phoenix' in the Celstial tongue. Revitalised and united under an extremely strong and charismatic leader, these lands now look set to play a major role in the unfolding events.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 6, 2004)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> EDIT: Ummm... google searches for 'Kevellond League' are returning nothing except pages from the 3rd IR. Is it something invented for that? What provinces is it made up of? How can I find out more about it?






> luvan, The 'Kevellond League' was an alliance of William's factions, consisting (IIRC) of Keoland, Gran Marc, The Duchy of Ulek, and the County of Ulek. It does not exist outside of the 3rd IR.




The Living Greyhawk Keoland website (which you kind find, among other things, at the link WR provided) has lots of useful information, including a brief overview that gives you everything you'll probably need to know, and the lots of specifics if you want to go in-depth.  That's here.  Also from the Living Greyhawk website William Ronald linked to is a .pdf made by the wizards folks, all about he Kingdom of Keoland.  You can download that here.  The gist of it is that Keoland was one big happy kingdom for a while, then was imperialistic for a while, and when that went sour went back to being a big happy kingdom.   Gran March and the Uleks, among other territories, are provinces which Keoland lost direct control of, but it makes gobs of sense that they'd ally together into one faction.



> I'm curous, If worshipers are cut off from there gods, how are Divine spellcasters reciving their spells. Normaly clerics (with the obvious exception of the cult of Iuz) would be limited to spells of 3rd level or less under these circumstances.




Where do you get the 3rd level figure, out of curiosity?  'cause if clerics get spells of even 3rd level, that would be nice.  Means they get _remove disease_ and _create food and water_, for example. 



> The problem is that those factions might manage to make themselves quite powerful by skillful play, and that every IC they captured would be twize as powerful for them as it would be for any other faction. It would encourage, or if the circumstances are pressing even force, other factions of similar alignment and apparent goals to clear the way for that Researcher faction, by directly or indirectly donating power to them.




Mmm.  Good point.  Perhaps it simply allows them to spend pure PLs, as opposed to sacrificing epic units.  It's not much of a benefit (all they really save is the trouble of converting PLs to units to elite units to epic units), but it's there.  Perhaps combined with the "Each epic unit counts this much more when casting epic spells" it could work.  Again, I don't know if the magic factions actually need a boost.



> Great.  Thanks. And your answer is correct, so yes; You can be my rules-answer-guy.




Huzzah!



> I should have read this part first. It's actually quite good. It wouldn't add a lot of complication to the system to add one more step in the creation of PLs and one more variable to the research of magic. I would have to use another word for it to reduce confusion, or I could just widen my definition of Power Points.
> Now I feel like an idiot. But that's a good thing, indicative of the quality of our players. Kudos.
> 
> (I'm not being sarcastic here, though I realize I may seem that way because I'm tired, have a head-ache and don't feel too bright right now. You have made a real and constructive contribution to this game Thomas, and I'm grateful for that.)




Glad to be of service. 

Perhaps PPs should be done away with altogether- it's all PL's (or you could call them PPs, I suppose) and you can either use them or not use them, but you can only use them for certain things (industry, tech, magic, regular units) at the beginning of a turn.

It may or may not be an issue, but you could theoretically have someone stockpile LOTS of PL's and suddenly research 4 years worth of Tech in 3 months... not likely. But you may want to say the maximum number of PL you can invest in any given turn in any given field is equal to your total PL production on a turn (so if you get 15 PL/turn faction-wide, you can invest a maximum of 15 PL _each_ per turn in Industry, Technology, or Mobilization of your armies).  This represents your maximum capacity for improvement.  The rule doesn't disallow any rate of improvement that couldn't be achieved under the original system, and prevents large infusions of cash from buying _everything._  At least all at once.



> You can hand over territory to each others, but your population would probably resent being traded around like cattle.  Recently conquered populations might not care, or if they care that won't make much difference.




I figure it this way: Take the US and, say, China.  In roleplaying terms, the two set up a trade agreement that gives Chinese companies more hold in the US stock market and the US companies are allowed to develop some of rural China.

In game terms, the US gives China partial control of a really highly developed area- say, New York City- with lots of IC (perhaps the maximum for the tech level).  China gives US partial control of an underdeveloped, high-population area that's no where near full IC for the tech level.  China gets a boost of PP's from it's new territory, and the US pours its resources into developing its new real estate, hoping to eventually make back their investment.

Or another situation: The US and a third-world nation.  The third-world nation wants an army; the US wants access to the third-world nation's natural resources.  They trade.  In game terms, the US gives the third-world nation PLs which it turns into military units, and the third-world nation gives the US some control of a territory, which they then proceed to develop heavily.


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## Bugbear (Dec 6, 2004)

Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Where do you get the 3rd level figure, out of curiosity? 'cause if clerics get spells of even 3rd level, that would be nice. Means they get remove disease and create food and water, for example.




From 1st/2nd edition AD&D, actualy. I don't recall if there is a 3rd edition rule for clerics cut off from there gods, but in earlier editions clerics were limited to low level spells (which were not granted by the deity itself) in situations like this.


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## Eluvan (Dec 6, 2004)

A Cleric with no God gets no spells in 3E. It's that simple. The cleric's God is the source of their power.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 6, 2004)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> A Cleric with no God gets no spells in 3E. It's that simple. The cleric's God is the source of their power.



 Technically, god-less clerics are possible, but that's not what you meant. I seem to remember reading things about access to 1st level spells, though that may have been 3rd-party material.


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 6, 2004)

> Arden made a spectacular speech



And he's the ruler of Keoland.....


Deja vu anyone?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2004)

*To Melkor:  Urgent*

Melkor, welcome to the 5th IR!
  You stated an interest in the Solistarim.
  A complete description of the Solistarim is on pages 7, 8, and 9 of this thread:  I posted the description.
  They are quite evil, and quite bent on taking the Flanaess for themselves.  They view the Flanaess as their natural backyard, and everyone else in it are bums and riff-raff tresspassing on their property.  And they don't like trespassers!
  And since the trespassers won't leave on their own, they are to be removed.  Removed ... period.

  (exhausted look)

  Ok guys, I have a Megapost to post.  It took the last 3 hours just to create it.  It is intended to clarify things.  Your specific power is in this post:  just scroll down through it until you find it.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2004)

*Edena's 1st Megapost:  the Powers of the 5th IR*

THE 5TH IR

  Created and run by SERPENTEYE

  Serpenteye?s e-mail (with permission)   ecaf99@hotmail.com

  GUILTY PUPPY'S 5TH IR MAP (in it's current guise)

http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-edit.php

  OTHER GREYHAWK/OERTH MAP URLS

Close-in maps:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/
Overview map:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd...eteflanaess.gif
Large-scale map:  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/gridgeo.gif
Large-scale map:  http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif
Large-scale map:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/oerthlarge.gif

Map links from William's Map and Other Campaign Resources Post (note that some links are broken)

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/wogmaps.html
Greyhawk Maps: http://www.thewatchman.de/spidersweb/oerik.htm
Oerth and Greyhawk maps:  http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/Campaigns/GreyhawkMaps/
Oerth map: http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif
Oerik Continent: http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/...p/supermap.html
World of Greyhawk Map: http://www.arrantdestiny.com/maps.htm
Greyhawk Maps: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/wogmaps.html
(One shows latitude.)
Living Greyhawk Maps: http://ca.geocities.com/kanisl/
World of Greyhawk Maps: http://talmeta.net/maps/wog.htm

  MAUDLIN'S FINAL MAP FROM THE 3RD IR

http://users.pandora.be/maudlin/Greyhawk.jpg

  - - - 

  - - -

  - - -


  PLAYERS AND THEIR POWERS

  - - -

  AIRWHALE

  E-Mail:  UNKNOWN
  PC:  Unknown
  Powers:  Unknown
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  UNKNOWN

  - - -

  ANABSTERCORIAN

  ANABSTERCORIAN (NEW POWER)

  E-Mail:  UNKNOWN
  PC:  Eli Tomorast (Eli the Demon-handed), Leader of the Seekers, Wiz 22, fiend-binder specialist, neutral evil.  Artifacts: Tome of the Black Heart, Demonhands, Sword of the Ebon Flame
  Powers:  The Seekers (adventuring company), House Maure (home of the forsaken House Maure, a cabal of Warlocks descended from Suel refugees of the Rain of Colorless Fire), Rary the Traitor, the Bright Lands
  Special Note on Powers:  Anabstercorian?s Powers are Infiltrator Organizations
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  Maure Castle, The Bright Lands

  NOTES ON ANABSTERCORIAN?S POWER

  ?Who are Eli Tomorast, the Seekers, and House Maure, you may ask?
  Let me tell you...
  The Seekers are, simply put, an adventuring company. A very large, very successful one! Though they act under the official profession of 'antique dealers', 'historians of ancient ruins', and similarly scholarly titles, they are in truth more looters, explorers, and treasure hunters along the line of Indiana Jones. Like Indi, however, they do have their scholarly streak - it's not uncommon for one of their member groups to spend some time exploring and reporting on a 'find' after it's been appropriately looted, delving in to the history and significance of it's contents.
  Eli Tomorast is a member. Recently, he became the leader. This is a dangerous thing.
  Eli Tomorast is a wizard, specializing in fiend-binding, known as Eli the Demon-handed for the fiendish grafts he has in place of hands. He has long been studying the long-crumbled Maure Castle, the home of the forsaken House Maure, a cabal of Warlocks descended from Suel refugees of the Rain of Colorless Fire. Recently he unearthed secrets there, secrets so potent he rocketed to the top of the Seekers hierarchy. Though his rule is absolute, the Seekers as a whole remain more or less free to act as they will.
  Eli is Neutral/Neutral Evil. His malevolence is passive - he seeks power for himself, and revenge against those who have wronged him, but his wisdom, intelligence, and charisma drive him to great deeds that inspire awe, terror, and admiration in those around him.
  The Seekers and House Maure are an Infiltrator faction, with a focus on Elite/Epic PL as opposed to Standard PL. If they manage to seize significant territory (as they may), this could change quickly.
More information about Eli Tomorast, the Seekers, and House Maure can be found in Dungeon Magazine #112, the 30th anniversary issue.?

  - - -

  BUGBEAR

  E-Mail:  UNKNOWN
  PC:  Seth Rhynnon, King of Greater Nyrond
  Powers:  Greater Nyrond (Nyrond, the County of Urnst, the Duchy of Urnst)
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  UNKNOWN

  NOTES ON BUGBEAR'S POWER

  'Here's a quick history of "Greater Nyrond", as I like to call it:
  Nyrond was hard hit by the Greyhawk Wars, with almost a hundred thousand dead, starvation, disease, and thoughts of rebelion spread like wildfire. The new king, a vibrant and young man named Lynwerd managed to save his kingdom from the predations of the Aerdy, and was now faced with even greater task of saving his kingdom from itself.
  Over the next fifteen years, Lynwerd dedicated his life to the reconstruction of Nyrond. Using monies borrowed from the Urnst States, he rebuilt the smashed cities, repopulated the empty countryside, and established new trade routes, earning him the name "Lynwerd the Rebuilder".
  Lynwerd also sought to provide a lasting peace in Nyrond, negotiating treaties with the remnants of once great Aerdy, often at great cost. Lynwerd surrendered all lands captured by Nyrond in the Greyhawk wars and even gifted small portions of Nyrond itself to sucure this peace, earning him the name "Lynwerd the Appeaser".
  In CY598 The Duke of Urnst died leaving no heir, making Lynwerd the new Duke. Lynwerd Unified Nyrond, and the Urnsts under one banner and one king. With the influx of goods, services and Labor from the new territorres, Nyrond quickly prospered into a nation as great, if not greater than it was before the wars.
  Lynwerd died in CY 603 passing the throne of Greater Nyrond to his cousin Seth Rhynnon , a high noble from the County of Urnst. Durring the Wars, a young Rhynnon, fought along side the Knights of the Shield against the armies of Iuz to liberate the Sheild Lands. Though Rhynnon has had the throne for less than a year, he is popular among the people of Greater Nyrond, especially amongst the Urnst peoples who are ecstatic to see one of their own on the throne.'

  - - -

  CREAMSTEAK

  E-Mail (with permission)  creamsteak@hotmail.com
  PC:  Yugthulgon, Master of the Staff of Ancient Penumbra
  Powers:  Beholder Dominions (Dominion of the Poisoned Eye, Flesh Reborn, Consuming Eye), Illithid Dominions (The Collective Overminds), cults associated with the above, servitors, slaves, thralls, voidminds, enslaved abberations and undead, and allied psionic demons and undead.
  Color on map:  NO COLOR
  Territories on map:  NONE _Based in the darkest coldest depths of the underdark._

  NOTES ON CREAMSTEAK?S POWER

   ?The background for my faction is that the sudden absence of the dieties on Oerth (and the loss of the connection to Illsensine) resulted in a sudden break in the Illithids, thier slaves, and virtually the entire structure of society. My PC (Yugthulgon) is an amalgamation of three high "priests" of the illithids enclaves. By amalgamation, I mean that Yug'rig'noth (egoist), Thul'hur'mca (shaper), and the enslaver Istigon (telepath) were litterally bound to one single body. As such Yugthulgon has 12 tentacles instead of 4. He has 6 eyes instead of two. This aberrant emissary that was created to take control of the chaos is completely and totally nuts for what it's worth.
  Yugthulgon (also called virtually any combination of the three original names at different times) killed perhaps 80% of the Mind Flayers on Oerth, mostly those of the three other psionic disciplines. However, he certainly made it a point to exercise his new power to destroy anyone with objections to his new rule. The combined Flayer-deaths, slave split off, and lack of a god to glue it together basically destroyed whatever empire they retained on Oerth.
  Weakened, beaten, and otherwise crippled, Yugthulgon went in search of an artifact of his diety in order to perhaps revive some degree of unity (and end the slaughter of his own race). He recovered the Staff of Ancient Penumbra from its prison of over a thousand Githzerai monks, fists of Zouken, and illithid slayers. This made more enemies than one could have ever predicted.
  So, following this, Yug united the remaining flayers (though at only 25% strength at best). In an effort that would be called blasphemy (and certainly was, resulting in some additional flayer deaths), Yug agreed to treat some of the "lesser" races like Beholders and certain demons/undead as equals.
  Now, with allies in tow, Yug has quitely bided his time, watching as Technology is developed by the surface above. Yug firmly believes that technology serves some eldritch purpose which sealed out the gods, and possibly even magic and psionic power later. Because of this, Yug sees this "power" in a very negative way, and has slowly been building his armies of war to do two things: Subjugate those who were offered "equality" but rejected it, and to COMPLETELY destroy both the demons who brought the tech, and thier technology.?

  - - -

  DEMON ATHIEST

  E-Mail:  UNKNOWN
  PC:  unknown
  Power:  The Shadow Guild
  Special Note on Powers:  Demon Athiest?s power is an Infiltrator Organization
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  UNKNOWN

  - - -

  DEVILISH

  E-Mail:  (withheld until direct permission is given by Devilish)
  PC:  Acererak the Demilich
  Powers:  Acererak/Tomb of Horrors, Valley of the Mage, Blackmoor, the Cold Marshes
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  Tomb of Horrors in the Great Swamp, Valley of the Mage, Blackmoor, the Cold Marshes, possible other territories

  - - -

  MR DRACO  (It is unclear if Mr. Draco is playing)

  E-Mail:  UNKNOWN
  PC:  unknown
  Power:  unknown
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  UNKNOWN

  - - -

  EDENA OF NEITH

  E-Mail:  (under construction)
  PC:  Vesharess Eclavdra, Drow Priestess 18th / Wizard 17th / Warrior 12th (Epic 27.)  Artifact:  Morganti Long Sword
  Power:  The Drow Dirty Dozen (12 drow cities united as a nation, led by the city of Erelhei-Cinlu in the Vault of the Drow), servitor races, assorted servitor monsters, assorted servitor undead
  Color on map:  VIOLET
  Territories on map:  Mounds of Dawn, West Dim Forest, Little Hills, Jerlea Shores, Tangles, Celene Hills, Western Gnatmarch, Onnwal Headlands, Denzac Isle, Hraak Forest, Edgefield, Hestmark Peaks:  each area represents a Province held by a nearby Underdark Drow City

  - - -

  ELUVAN

  E-Mail (with permission)  somebodys_fool@hotmail.com
  PC:  Arden Leonson, King Arden I of Keoland and High Councillor of the League of Athyr, Human Paladin 32
  Powers:  The League of Athyr (Keoland, Gran March, the Duchy of Ulek (contested claim with Thomas Hobbes)
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  Territories in the western and southwestern Flanaess.  

  NOTES ON ELUVAN?S POWER

  'Following the Greyhawk War, Keoland was left in sorry shape. Once the most powerful and influential land in the entirety of the Sheldomar valley, in the war that was to shape the future of much of the Flanaess it had no cohesive policy and achieved nothing. In negotiations, the leader's indecisiveness proved sufficient to ensure that Keoland's allies were overrun whilst King Skotti dithered and wondered whether to interfere. Militarily, the once-great land suffered losses and humiliations on all sides and lost territory and influence.
  Post-war, the land found itself in a weaker position than it had been for many years since. It badly needed time to rebuild and regenerate its economy, and confidence in the country's rulers was low after their mistakes in the war. When Skotti was assassinated in a plot by Cedrian of Dorlin to take the throne, the country descended into civil war. The noble houses squabbled amongst themselves for power, and for some time disorder reigned.
  When finally this was curtailed, it occurred in dramatic fashion. Arden Leonson, the youngest son of a minor noble house in the Gran March, marched into Niole Dra with a small but resplendent contingent of knights and, nervous but determined, stood up in the town square and announced that he had been sent a vision from Heironeous showing him that he must unite Keoland under his banner and restore order and greatness to the country once again. He spoke with courage, power, and conviction, but of course it amounted to very little. He stood no chance of convincing the people that mattered that he should be handed control of the country.
  He persevered, however. At first he had little success. But on the occassion of his seventh speech in the capital of Keoland, his divine mandate was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. As he spoke, the clouds above him parted and a sunbeam reached down to touch him. Bathed in divine radiance he continued his speech with ever-increasing fervour, and as he did so his audience watched stunned as a Celestial host numbering several hundred descended and knelt behind him, bowing their heads to the young knight.
  The result was electric. Word travelled across the country lightning-fast that a messiah had come, a Paladin with a divine mandate to rule the country. Supporters flocked to him, and though he still had a struggle ahead of him, he eventually succeeded in taking the Throne of the Lion and restoring peace and order to the land, as well as using his heritage to reforge strong links with the Gran March.
  He did not rest long on his laurels, however. He led the country wisely and well, and under his leadership it prospered once again. In his third year on the throne, as the country's affairs were once again seeming in order, disaster struck as the creatures overruning Sterich set their sights on eastward expansion. The County of Flen and the March of Mandismoor came under attack, and it was all the Keoish forces could do to slow their relentless progress.
  Arden made a spectacular speech asking for aid from his immediate neighbours, appealing to his already strong alliance with the Gran March and bidding the County of Ulek and the Duchy of Ulek to imagine how things would be if they were faced with the prospect of worrying not only about the Principlality's struggle against the Orcish hordes, but were faced with the immediate prospect of monstrous invasion from the West as well.
  The Duchy of Ulek and the Gran March both responded by sending strong military forces to aid Keoland in their efforts to push the invaders back. The County of Ulek, however, perhaps feeling secure in its more remote location from Keoland, sent its sympathies but nothing else. The aid that was sent was enough, however, and the monstrous atatckers suffered a number of crushing defeats and wer epushed back. Feeling that the threat of the monsters of Sterich could no longer be allowed to exist on Keoland's doorstep, and that Keoland should make good on its obligation to aid Sterich in its time of need, Arden then launched a retributive crusade to push the evil creatures out of Sterich and allow its people to return home. He was successful, and with Keoland's help Sterich has been able to restore itself to some semblance of a functioning nation once again.
  With the recent cataclysmic events, the alliance between these four lands has been renewed. The have each felt that they need an additional bulwark of strength in these times, and have rallied together under Arden's banner, calling themselves the Kingdom of Athyr, meaning 'phoenix' in the Celstial tongue. Revitalised and united under an extremely strong and charismatic leader, these lands now look set to play a major role in the unfolding events.'

  - - -

  FORSAKEN ONE

  E-Mail:  (withheld until direct permission is given by Forsaken One)
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  Troll/Sahuagin Druocracy, the Ice Elves of the Adri
  Color on map:  unknown
  Territories on map:  Part of Adri Forest, Troll Fens.  Large off-map territories of an unclear nature, land and sea:  see  http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif

  - - -

  GNOMEWORKS (It is unclear if Gnomeworks is playing)

  E-Mail:  UNKNOWN
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  unknown
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  UNKNOWN

  - - -

  GUILT PUPPY:  MAPMAKER OF THE 5TH IR

  E-Mail:   (withheld until direct permission is given by Guilt Puppy)
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  The Scarlet Brotherhood
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  Tilvanot Peninsula and possible other territories

  NOTES ON GUILT PUPPY?S POWER

  IC, the Scarlet Brotherhood is one of the well known evil factions of the Flanaess, although very few known the actual details of the organization.  
  OOC, numerous sourcebooks discuss the Scarlet Brotherhood and it?s history in depth.

  - - -

  JAMES HEARD

  E-Mail:  (withheld until James gives direct permission) 
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  The Nations of the Mare Mysticum (the Elven Lands, Elvanian Forest, Kingdom of the Marches.), Marchwards (Half-elven nation on northern border of Empire of Lynn)
  Color on map:  NOT APPLICABLE
  Territories on map:  No territories on-map.  Off-map territories on the western side of the continent of Oerik:   see http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif

  NOTES ON JAME?S POWERS

  The Mare Mysticum Alliance
  For ages the elven nations of the Mare Mysticum lived in relative isolation from the human and other demihuman powers that ruled to the east and west across the sea. Their only true contest of powers were with the giants of Fireland and the primitive monsters of Gigantea, but that changed with the coming of mankind to the south. With the establishment of the Eryptian refugees that came to call themselves the Empire of Lynn the elves found themselves in conflict, war had come for the first time to groves since the dark ones were cast down into the depths of Oerth.
  Still, the Lynndites were primitive compared to the elves and more vulnerable to manipulation by ancient minds of the elven elders. The humans were seeded with heresies and embroiled into civil wars, sympathetic and promising humans were seduced by fair elven maidens for the good of the People. Once the dust settled the Empire of Lynn was cut into three portions, the Empire, the heretical tribes of the Enllave, and the half-elven protectorate kingdom of the Marches. Today, Lynn still covets or claims areas of the Mare Mysticum such as the Marches and Elven Forest. The Mare itself is unclaimed by either side for the most part, being a place difficult to travel to thanks to difficult seas and of questionable value due to its enormous swampy prominence (roughly the size of the Suel Empire at its height).
  Physically the Elven Forest itself is the least forgiving of all geography around the Mare. Some of the treants of the Forest remember when the elves and their dark brothers the drow were one people, and when humanity was a mere myth used to frighten gullible elven children. Portions of the faerie court hold residence here deep in the recesses, and the ghosts of fey elven heroes lurk in the shadows to waylay the unannounced into the forest. The Elven Forest is what defines the Mare Mysticum region for what it is, a magical place. Even though few brave elves actually make residence in the forest, its presence is the entire reason for being for the elves to be in the area. Time itself seems to pass more slowly and sometimes less clearly within its borders, and elven and sylvan priestesses and seers come from all across the world to consult with the forest itself's strange intelligence. It is said that before the breaking with the outer planes that Corellon Larethian would while away hours in conversation with the rocks and trees of the Elven Forest. Some say that the legendary patience of the elves was learned in this place, and that in the center of the forest the most ancient of all elven holy sites - a temple dedicated to Sehanine who led the ancient elven people to Oerth - sits untouched by the sands of time.
  The Kingdoms of the Marches spread to cover the lands between Gigantea, Lynn, the lost dwarven lands of the Landspire mountains that provide a buffer between the Marches and the lands of the Khanates and Celestial Imperium, and most of the land between the Elven homelands and the Elven Forest. Once the Marches were much smaller, and the Elven homelands much greater, but as time has passed the elves have retreated more and more as their number dwindled and the Marchward's subjects multiplied. The Marchwards are a hardy, industrious folk of mostly half-elven descent. Pledged eternally to their ancient task of guardianship, the Marchwards divide their lands according to celestial accordances garnered from the seerage of the elves. Few humans are allowed to immigrate to the Marches unless they pass a series of tests of magic and skill maintained to establish their loyalty to the elves, but those same tests guarantee that the rulers of the Marches are mighty and committed to their task indeed. Much of the land of the Marches is wide, fertile valleys left over from glaciation. Few occupy the lands, but ancient elven fortresses dot much of the countryside and are occupied by their now half-elven defenders and their fey allies. The overall governship of the Marches is covered by the Council of Y'Cind, whose traditional members include the Prince of Elvenkind, the high priest of Y'Cind, and an ambassador from the Faerie Court of the Elven Forest.
  The Elven nation itself is empty. No, not entirely - but the cities of the elves lie mostly unoccupied and the storm wracked seas off the coast sometimes wash through the ages old magics that once protected the shores from the worst of the blizzards that wash over Gigantea. One of the first thing most notice about the place is that most of the residents are old, visibly old as few elves outside the Elven nation are ever seen. A few reckless and ill-tempered young elves pledged as honor guard stay here, and the occasional pilgrim seeking knowledge that might only be found in the capital Coronel's hallowed libraries come for moments. Elves in the ancient homelands live longer than they might live someplace further from the Elven forest and the magic invoked over the years in the Mysticum. The only ambassadors to the Elven nation is a single solitary building in Coronel hosting the delegation from the Celestial Imperium. There has never been an embassy for the Empire of Lynn, all such conversations having been between intermediaries such as the Marchward kings. Even though the Elven nations and the Mysticum alliance covers a huge amount of acreage it is quite thinly populated, being the home of mostly elves, their fey allies, ancient treants and awakened animals, ghosts, and their half-elven knight-protectors.

  - - -

  KNIGHT OTU

  E-Mail:  (withheld until Knight Otu gives direct permission)
  PC:  Half-fiend red dragon
  Powers  Cult of Ashardalon, the Great Kingdom, Northern Aerdi, United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Rel Astra, the Sea Barons
  Color on map:  BROWN
  Territories on map:  Large areas of the southeastern Flanaess

  - - -

  MELKOR  (It is not clear yet if Melkor is playing)

  E-Mail:  UNKNOWN
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  Unknown
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  UNKNOWN

  - - -

  NAC MAC FEEGLE

  E-Mail:  UNKNOWN
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  Unknown
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  UNKNOWN

  - - -

  PAXUS ASCLEPIUS

  E-Mail (with permission)  joejay1066@yahoo.com
  PC:  The Wolf God, paragon greater barghest 18 hit dice, warshaper 5 / planar champion 5 / legendary dreadnought (several dozen levels)
  Powers:  The Pomarj, the Crystalmists, the Jotens, the Hellfurnaces, the Griff Mountains, the Raker Mountains, the Dreadwood
  Color on map:  YELLOW
  Territories on map:  Mountain ranges in the southwest, west, and northeast Flanaess.  The Dreadwood.

  NOTES ON PAXUS?S POWERS

  ? In game terms, the Wolf God is a paragon greater barghest of 18 hit dice, with five levels of warshaper, five of planar champion, and several dozen of legendary dreadnought. This is a purely combatant build, with only minimal and passive magical abilities.
  For flavor text: The Wolf God is a terrible sight to behold: a 15-foot goblinoid form, most of its body masked in several hundred pounds of urdrukar full plate. The leering wolflike head that forms the helm is, in fact, identical to the true visage of its wearer, down to the blazing topaz eyes. His pride and joy, Grimcleaver, is a masterwork of vile metallurgy. The falchion, tall as two men, has been patternwelded from Baatorian greensteel, morghuth-iron, and adamantine, heated in fires made from the souls of fallen paladins, and quenched in the still-living bodies of kidnapped priests of Trithereon; the bounties placed by the Wolf God on live swanways indicates that he hopes to duplicate the honing of the Angelwing Razor.
  The policies of the Wolf God are simple: order is the proper way of the world, and he is the proper director of that order. To this end, he has made common cause with those who are willing to stomach his means: a brutal tyranny which also includes a complicated caste system. To appease Iuz, he allows his clerical castes (primarily bureaucrats, but also numbering sorcerors, wizards, and those with natural magical powers) to worship the cambion demigod (incidentally providing him with a corp of divine casters to assist his armies); to the drow who dwell so unfortunately close to his heartlands, he has promised positions in the upper hierarchy.?

  - - -

  RIKANDUR AZEBOL

  E-Mail:  (withheld until Rikandur gives direct permission)
  PC:  Iuz the Old, Demigod, human half-fiend Cleric 26th / Assassin 20th  
  Powers:  The Empire of Iuz, the Horned Society, the Bandit Kingdoms, Tenh, Stonehold, large force of Demons including the Legion of Black Death
  Color on map:  GREY BLUE
  Territories on map:  Large areas of the north central Flanaess

  - - -

  THOMAS HOBBES

  E-Mail (with permission) ternashandrik@yahoo.com
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  The Lendore Isles, Celene, the Duchy of Ulek (contested claim with Eluvan), the County of Ulek, the Principality of Ulek, the Theocracy of the Pale, the Church of Tritherion
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  powers in the southwest and northeast Flanaess.  The Lendore Isles (just off-map to the east, see  http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif )

  - - -

  VENUS

  E-Mail:  (withheld until Venus gives direct permission)
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  Upper Khanate, Lower Khanate, Orcreich
  Color on map:  Not Applicable
  Territories on map:  No on-map territories.  Off-map territories to the far west:  see  http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif

  - - -

  WILLIAM

  E-Mail (with permission)  williamwronald@aol.com
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  The Baklunish Confederation (Zeif, Tusmit, Ekbir, Ket, Ull, the Plains of the Paynims, the Dry Steppes, the lands of the Tiger Nomads, the lands of the Wolf Nomads, the Ullsprue Mountains, the Barrier Peaks, the Janasib Islands, the Qayah-Bureis Islands, the Araphad Islands)
  Color on map:  ORANGE (?)
  Territories on map:  Part of the northwest Flanaess and large on-map areas west of the Flanaess, extending off-map to the west.  Islands off-map to the northwest, see  http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif

  - - -

  XAEL

  E-Mail (with permission)  Xael_Xorlarrin@hotmail.com
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  Highfolk, the Vesve Forest, the Yatil Mountains, Perrenland, Morkenkainen and the Circle of Eight
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  powers in the northwest Flanaess

  - - -

  ZELDA THEMELIN

  E-Mail (with permission)  zelda@dlc.fi
  PC:  unknown
  Powers:  unknown
  Color on map:  UNKNOWN
  Territories on map:  UNKNOWN


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2004)

*Edena's 2nd Megapost:  Collected rules addendum from previous posts*

A cautionary note here:  If the rules seem too complicated, they may drive people off.  And the rules seem to be getting pretty complicated.  I'm reminded a bit of Star Fleet Battles here.

  Here is the megapost, and you'll see what I mean:

  SERPENTEYE?S ADDENDUM TO HIS RULES

  Addendum 1:

  Serpenteye commented:  All artifacts are considered Epic PL. It's the easiest way to handle them.
  Yes, you need Regular PLs (PLs are the designation for your armed forces) to create Elite PLs and Elite to create Epic. You can create Elite PLs at the beginning of the Turn and use them the same Turn, though you can't use those same PLs to create Epic PLs the same turn (you have to wait 'till the next one.)
   You need to put 50 Elite PLs into magical research (which cost 500 Epic PLs, which cost 5000 Regular PLs) to get 10th level spells and 200 Elite PLs to get 11th level spells. When you have put PLs into magical research the points stay there, they are cumulative. The only way to wipe out the points is to utterly destroy the faction.

  Addendum 2:

  Serpenteye commented:  No, you do not have to upgrade Militia to Regular PLs. You can create Regular armies directly out of your the Power Points you get through your Indistrial Capacity or Infiltration.

  Addendum 3:

  Serpenteye commented:  You can call your High Magic spells anything you like. The rules allow for role-playing, though they may seem cold and rigid.  when you get 10th level spells you (pending my approval) can create a variety of spells of that general level of power. They need not all be destructive, or direct.
The Rain of Colourless Fire would probably be a 12th level spell or perhaps several lower High Magic spells cast simultaneously in a pattern. It destroyed an area the size of the Kevellond league utterly and permanently, that fits into my rough hierarchy of spells.

  Addendum 4:

   Serpenteye commented:  There's a precedence in WOTC's official DnD rules for Epic levels that state that A non-epic Antimagic Field does not work against an Epic spell. I think I'll apply that ruling to the High Magic of this IR.
  Some Demons breed faster than others. But still, since the IR is divided into 3-month turns and probably won't last more than a few years, natural population growth won't be very significant for any race. Magical means can perhaps be researched, but let's leave that to after the game has begun. 

  Addendum 5:

  Serpenteye commented:  Magic items are represented by Elite and Epic PLs (they can be conquered or stolen from your enemies). They can be created normally. Artifacts are trickier. Creating them takes time and power beyond the ability of most mortals. You're better off trying to take them from someone else.

  Addendum 6:

   Serpenteye commented:  This time around PLs is a measure of disposable power that can be used at an immediate notice during the Turn. It represents your armies, magical items and cold hard cash. It's not tied to the territories, but to your faction as a whole.
  IC, Industrial Capacity is the measure of the productive capacity of the territories. It represents the value of your factories, mines, farming and so on. In other words, the aspects of your wealth that can not be liquidated on a short notice but builds the foundation of your productive economy. At the end/beginning of each Turn it decides how many Power Points (PPts) you can spend in your template.
  Power Points exists only between Turns, it is what your IC turns into and it is what you spend on technological research, industrialization, creation of armies and such.
  Your IC is turned into PPts which can be turned into PLs or more IC. That's the way it works. 

  Addendum 7:

   Serpenteye commented:   PLs are martial, so yes PLs can = armies, but can also be used for other things like Infiltration (spend your Regular PLs) or magical research (Elite PLs).
   That's a new thought for me. Using regular PLs for Infiltration would simplify the system considerably. No longer need you put specific PPts in reserve for Infiltration... Regular PLs, as the two other kinds of PL, can represent various kinds of currency (magical and otherwise), that in turn can be used to bribe and manipulate. In essence you spend "money" to infiltrate.

  Addendum 8:

  Question from Eluvan:  One small question, to which I think I already know the asnwer but would like to be completely sure: 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th level Psionics are researchable in precisely the same way as Magic and have precisely the same rules governing them. Correct?

  Serpenteye answered:  Same effect, different flavour. 

  Addendum 9:

  Question from Creamsteak:  Can magic affect tech (what I'm looking for, is could I create a 10th or 11th level spell that functions as a large scale "anti-technology" field)?
  Second, would there be any benefits to attaining both 10th level magic AND psionics?

  Serpenteye answered:  As a "catastropy type" offensive spell, yes you can. Generally, though, it's probably easier to simply blow up the technology in question. It would be a spell with a limited duration, not exceeding a few days even in the smallest possible area of effect, and the side-effects may be surprising.

  Addendum 10:

  Comment by Paxus:  That seems devastatingly imbalanced to me; if high-level magic not only directly counters other high-level magic, and increases combat effectiveness, but can directly counter technological improvements as well, there will be absolutely no reason to develop technology.

  Serpenteye answered:  The effects of such a spell would be limited both in duration and area, similar in scope to the usual "blow them up"- spells. Some particularly sturdy pieces of technology may even be resistant.  The spell would be viable, but not overpowered.

  Addendum 11:

  Comment by Thomas:   Figure that if an anti-tech or tech-dampening field can be created, its benefits are included in the combat bonuses from high-level magic.

  Serpenteye answered:  That's part of it, yes. That would reflect the standard, individual use of 10th level spells, but not the faction-wide ritual spells.

  Addendum 12:

  Questions by Thomas:   Mostly I'm wondering about cooperation. What benefits can be gained in any given field (tech, industrialization, magic, war) through cooperating with your allies? Militarily, obviously, you just throw your forces in with theirs and smash things.
  In terms of industrailization, it seems like their should be some way to spend your PPs or PLs (not sure which is right), perhaps at a reduced efficiency, to invest it in someone else's industrial capacity.
  In terms of Tech, it's not a straight "sharing tech secrets" thing 'cause everyone has the blueprints. But cooperation still seems like it would help- even if you have the precise instructions on how to, say, install a DVD player, having someone who is tech-savvy help you with it means it gets done faster.
  In terms of magic, you have to figure out what having 10th level spells researched means. Is it transferable knowledge?

  Serpenteye answered:   Knowledge of High Magic or High-Tech is not transferable faction to faction. Allowing that would open a huge can of worms and could very well ruin the game for a lot of the players. It would force you all to gang together into huge power-blocks and rob you of much of your ability to make individual decisions. Perhaps that's ok with some of you, but others are going to resent the necessity of it and it's going to cause stagnation in the game as people see that their individual actions do not matter. That's my worst-case scenario, but it's bad enough.
  In game terms I could explain it like this. You all know plenty of High-Tech, but to use it you have to construct the proper infrastructure to construct all the components. That's what the technological arms-race is all about, and that's what costs your people their time and effort. Of course, you could spend your own Power Points to upgrade somebody elses infrastructure of industrial capacity, but that would cost you just as much as if you had spent it on yourself. Helping each others is all fine and well, but it's no shortcut to power.
  Magic is expensive. Researching magic requires a huge sacrifice from the most powerful, strong-willed and individualistic people in your faction. These people are willing (more or less) to make that sacrifice for their own faction, but they won't stand to see their work put freely into the hands of their potential enemies. They won't trust even the most lawful or goodly ally enough to put the fruit of their very souls into their hands. They are stubborn like that, so no sharing of researched magic between factions.
  Actually actively sacrificing themselves by putting points into another factions magical arms race is simply an unthinkable act for them.
  You are free to concieve of a more convincing rationale, but my ruling stands as a firm solid No.
  I realise that any realistic world-simulation would allow you to trade weapons, wealth and magic between each others. But if I'm going to allow that I might as well throw the arms-races out the window because everybody would be able to get their hands on technology and magic (trough trade or infiltration or conquest) and nobody would want to spend their hard-earned resources to develop it.
A game based on a more realistic model would be very interesting. I would personally want to play it, but I cannot put such a game together.

  Addendum 13:

  Creamsteak commented and asked:  For the purposes of the IR I would define technology as anything derived from technology or plans brought to Oerth by the Demons. That seems both finite, clear, and pretty accurate for the IR.  Second, you didn't answer my earlier second question: Would there be any benefit to researching BOTH magic AND psionics?

  Serpenteye answered:  Yes... That's reasonable, and would allow for spells that targeted such fiendish influences.  
   No. Magic and Psionics ultimately spring from the same source, the fundamental energy of the Multiverse. They take different paths and different expressions, but are not that dissimilar. High Magic taps into magic and Psionics from a primal and powerful level where the two energies are pretty much indistinguishable from each others.
Druidic magic springs from Life, a more evolved (and different) aspect of the primal energies that lie at the core of existance. And Divine Magic springs from a very highly evolved and complex source, the faith of the minds of sentient beings.

All you need to know, for all practical purposes, is: No, they are the same. 

  Addendum 14:

  Thomas asked:   I would ask about the second point- could I, for example, negotiate with an Infiltrator  faction to infiltrate territory X and pass on the info for me; in exchange, I'll pay for the insertion cost, or such-and-such many regular PL's. If I get this right, since regular PL that aren't converted to armies can represent any number of things, including money, this is a reasonable system.

  Serpenteye answered:  Oh, yes. You can pass information around freely. You can even send each other gifts of money or volunteers, or demand wealth or territory in exchange for your assistance. That's all fine, but magic and technological infrastructure are not that easily transferable.

  Addendum 15:

  Thomas asked:   One thing I did want to add, and didn't have time for, was that I think it would be cool (and, perhaps more to the point, balanced) to allow people to cast high-level spells over multiple factions if they both have the capability. For example, both Celene and the Mare Mysticum (a purely hypthoetical alliance, I assure you) have access to 10th-level spells and X and Y number of Epic PLs. Alone, they could cast a certain number of 10th-level spells per turn; together, their mages wreak untold devastation!
  Very often in fiction, paticularly in the history of a world (random thought: after we wrap this up, run an RPG game set in post-IR greyhawk, if there is one), there's a line about "The mages of Elves and priests of men combined their power to..." etc., etc. and it would be great if we could throw that sort of thing in here.

  Serpenteye answered:  That's perfectly all right. As long as both factions have the ability to cast spells they can do so together. But you will find that the spell-progression in my rules do not usually reward such cooperation, except in the circumstance where one or both of the factions do not have enough PL to cast a spell of a spell-level they have researched.
Actually planning to use this as a strategy requires you to put a lot of trust in your fellow players, for if they would betray you you would suddenly find yourself in a great deal of trouble. Can you really trust anyone that much, when their suggestion of such a cooperation might well be a trap to make you into their helpless victim? Even people who present themselves as Good may harbour Evil in their heart, just waiting to be unleashed on the unsuspecting. There can be alliances, and counter-alliances, double and triple agents. Who can you really trust...? 

  Addendum 16:

  Thomas commented:  To return to something you said earlier, perhaps small mage-centric factions like the Circle of Eight should have a Researcher trait, to go along with the small rogue-centric Infiltrators,  allowing them to get more bang for their epic PL buck. This would allow them to compete with their larger neighbors in a way similar to the way Infiltrator does. This may or may not be required, depending on how you "stat out" the territories and forces they control.

  Serpenteye answered:  I've considered that. The problem is that those factions might manage to make themselves quite powerful by skillful play, and that every IC they captured would be twize as powerful for them as it would be for any other faction. It would encourage, or if the circumstances are pressing even force, other factions of similar alignment and apparent goals to clear the way for that Researcher faction, by directly or indirectly donating power to them. Donating wealth, handing over conquered provinces, defending them from attackers enabling them to put everything they have into research... The ways are many, and I cannot ban them all or I may as well make you all into my personal NPCs.
  A similar thing happened in the 3rd IR. Oerth was under threat from Vecna and the goodly factions in the Alliance of Oerth needed to get 10th level magic as quickly as possible to counter that threat. So they looked to their most powerful ally, Forrester of the Torillian Commonwealth, and directly gave of their own power to give him 10th level magic. Forrester defeated Vecna and the horrors he had unleashed and then he was pulled in (mostly against his will because everyone still needed him so) into becoming the judge, jury and executioner of the IR. The Evil factions (including my own) looked on in hatred and disgust, and the Good factions became increasingly frustrated with their own situation in the shadow of Forrester and the fact that they themselves had enabled him to reduce them to a lesser degree of relevance. Few people, not including Forrester himself, were very happy with the situation.
  (That's my interpretation of the situation and everybody's posts about it. My perspective is not the only one, or the most correct one. And I intend no offense to anyone, because nobody was truly to blame, the situation simply got rather difficult.)
  I know that you are perfectly capable of finding ways around the intent of my rules, there's not one stupid person among us, but allowing that trait would make it too easy for you. The consequences, which you'll see if you translate my example into your own situation in this IR, would be negative for the game.

  Addendum 17:

  Thomas commented:   Some thinking aloud: Your output is Industry and the number of PPs you generate, basically. So what is trade with other countries? The scale actually seems large enough for business to matter a little (hey, each turn is a quarter!), but on the other hand, not matter that much. Probably best to keep it abstract. Although it occurs to me that one way to represent trade is to voluntarily trade some control of a territory. So the Kevelond League gets 1 point of a territory of the Baklunish league and Baklun gets 1 point of a territory. There's no real benefit to either side, but it makes the co-dependent and might be a good sign of trust, a gesture of goodwill, a strengthening of bonds, etc., etc. It may or may not be worth doing in any case. Any other thoughts on the matter?

  Serpenteye answered:  You can hand over territory to each others, but your population would probably resent being traded around like cattle.  Recently conquered populations might not care, or if they care that won't make much difference.
  Most countries trade with each others on a capitalistic level, between individuals. It is abstracted and reflected in the general productivity of your provinces. Under normal, peaceful, conditions it will be assumed that there is a certain level of internal and international trade. In times of war, or other times of chrisis, trade will be affected and recessions may occurr under any circumstance. The IC of your provinces will perhaps fluctuate a little, but that's minor and need not really cause any serious concern. Ignore it if you want, I'll probably forget about it. (No big deal. It's only brought up because you asked about it )

  Addendum 18:

  Comment by Serpenteye:   It would be best if everything but the most secret of plans eventually found their way to the IR-threads, for the sake of making it a good read, but you don't have to post your semi-IC conversations and negotiations on the board.
  I only really need to be told what you have agreed to and with whom and only if you believe you need me to know. If I don't know something I'll do nothing about it and if that's what you want that's what you'll get.
  Not that I will blab about your plans to anyone or in the thread itself, of course, by my brain can only hold so much information.
  Generally I'd have to say your PCs are powerful and cunning enough to find ways to talk to each others without spies finding out about it (unless you want them to find out about it, or are being sloppy). But as soon as you put anything into motion as soon as it goes from talk to action you will have to tell me, or it simply will not happen.

  Addendum 19:

  Comment by James:   General Power Level Concern: I agree with Forsaken One, I think a more...sedate pace and power level might be in order in this IR (based solely on my reading of the 3rd IR) - I'd much rather have a game where we each spent long turns trying to get our plans in motion and achieve our ends rather than a nukefest of some sort. Disorderly factions having to spend power to move and being resistant to outside influence sounds fun.

  Serpenteye answered:  That's my preference as well.
Keep in mind that Epic PLs will be quite limited for most factions from the start and that it takes time to upgrade enough Regular PLs to make a difference. Your Epic and Elite PLs will be your most valuable asset, and using them frivolously is taking a dangerous risk. They can be killed by a lucky blow from a Regular army, and there's no raising the dead for anyone in the beginning of the game. Without them as a mobile reserve your faction will be very vulnerable. Perhaps most fighting is best left to the relatively expandable Militias and Regulars?
10th level magic is expensive, and noone will have enough resources to get it within the first few turns.

  Addendum 20:

  Comment by James:   Researcher trait: I think that might be a bit too scary, seeing how (as I understand it) certain nations will already be getting bonuses to their magic of various flavors thanks to the Arcane or Clerical (or did I misread/misremember?) traits. Stacking something like that would be obscene, though I think that there should be corresponding (but rare, who on Oerth has it besides Murlynd?) trait for technology.

  Serpenteye answered:

   Researching technology or magic are the mains way to increase your power in the IR. Infiltration, by contrast, is only really viable as the main source of power for a handful of factions. It's relatively expensive for normal factions, but it enables a traditional DnD niche to be filled by giving the trait to a few underground organizations.

  Addendum 21:

  Thomas commented:   Once this is done, the turn proper commences. This is where things start to get fuzzy. You talk about "spending" PL's of various levels (you spend PL's to infiltrate a faction, Regular PLs to create Elite PLs, Elite PLs to create Epic PLs, and epic PLs to research magic). But these PL's refer to people. In terms of magic, as you've explained, this makes sense: the people in question are killed or seriously injured in the researching. But what about when upgrading military units? Does it really kill off, or cause the disbandment of, the other 9 units of 2-6 level people to get the one unit of 7-16 level people? That's one hell of a training regimen . What about infiltration? Do you sacrifice regular military units in order to send spies in?
  PLs make sense when they mean something other than military units, but the only point in the process that you've listed to turn PPs into PLs is when you recruit some of your populace to become professional soldiers. Really, it seems to me not so much a point of confusion about how the rules work as noticing that you seem to have forgotten a passage.

  Serpenteye answered:

   Ehh, true. The prospect of killing off tens of thousands of your soldiers to train a handful of them into Epics would be unpalatable to most factions. Even if PL also represents your wealth and equipment most of it will always be in the form of the mortal flesh of your soldiers.
I wrote the rule with the intention that your production should not be immediately convertable into high-level individuals. One million tons of grain does not an archmage make, though it can feed and pay an army. And I wanted there to be a delay for mechanical reasons too, to make the factions more different from each others and to make it less attractive to max-out industrialization and then put everything at once into getting Epic PLs and 10th level spells. Hmm, what to do, what to do?
  Let's say that the training regimen is very demanding. The only way to learn new skills and abilities in DnD is to gain experience points. The main way of gaining experience points, as it is presented in the DnD rules, is killing things... (and the reasoning breaks down... It would lead to the position that Epic PLs could only be given to armies that had survived hundreds of battles against an enemy of 1/4 of their strength... Absurd, and a nightmare of paperwork.)
  Sorry.
  I do not know how to explain this in a logical way, nor do I know how to change the rules so that they would make sense. I'm afraid the only way the rules would make sense from every possible perspective is that they were made ten times as complicated.
  Let's say that a lot of the soldiers flunk-out of Elite-school, those who survive it) turn to drinking and become useless bums. Eh no...
  I've got it! Eureka! It's expensive, very very expensive, to train Elite and Epic soldiers or breed and raise Elite and Epic monsters. So expensive, in fact, that you cannot afford to maintain your army in its current strength (having an army is expensive, though this is also abstracted). You cannot afford to pay or feed all your soldiers or to maintain their weapons and supply them with ammunition, clothing, toothbrushes, wenches, spirits and so on. So some of them will have to be sent home. But since you've still spent a lot of money to keep them in the army you don't get any PPts back when you send them home.
You can only train people who already have the basic required skills, thus only Regulars or Elites respectively, and you have to train a lot of people to get a small number of graduates. And yes, the training regimen is very demanding and a lot of those who enter it are killed or physically and mentally crippled.
  It's not perfect, but the best I could do on a not-so-short notice. *whew!*
  I do realize that it's unpalatable, especially for the Goodly factions (who we happen to need a lot more of ) , but you don't have to role-play it that way...
  And yes, it costs people, as well as money, to Infiltrate your enemies. Espionage is a deadly business.

  Addendum 22:

  Thomas commented:  I wrote the first part of this post before I went back and read this one of yours.  So the wording above may be a little off, but I think the idea it may bear returning to. As is, PLs represent People as well as Resources, which means it's a little wonky to "spend" them at a rate of 10-to-1 in order to get better people or spies.  I'm trying to think of a way to tweak this (although you may disagree about the need to tweak it) that's elegant. Would it be too complex to be able to "stockpile," converting PP into the "magic items and hard cash" form of PL without throwing population into the mix?
  Or perhaps that's what you do every time you create a PL (which is to say, you create some form of useful material wealth) and making regular armies is in fact the process of combining a PL and some population (whatever it is, magic item or gold, it's sold and the money used to make weapons). Of course, when the population is destroyed (i.e, killed in battle) the PL is lost because the equipment is destroyed too. I think I like this best.
  The way things would work under this system:
  Replace the "military" step of the before-the-turn actions with the "stockpile" step. PPs are converted into PLs as usual. People have a certain amount of PL hanging around as a matter of course. Still at the beginning of the turn, you earmark some of your PL to be wed to some of your population to create military units. Like before when you could spend PP to get regular PLs, you can only do this at the beginning of your turn. Any other PLs you keep.
  If you disband a military unit, the PL remains. To convert a low-level military unit to a higher-level military unit, you spend unwed PL's. You would spend 9 PLs to turn a Regular "unit" (which replaces PL when referring to armies) into an Elite unit (for a total cost of 10) and you would spend 90 PLs to turn an elite unit into an Epic unit (totalling 100 PL). This represents spending money on training as much as anything else, which is why you can't just disband an epic unit and get the PLs back (at least until you research a spell to turn their XP into GP ). Infiltration requires a similar expenditure of loose PLs.
  Magic costs loose PLs for research costs, and should require the presence of Epic units (you need to have 1 epic unit for each 100 PL you want to spend in a turn), and maybe a lesser expenditure thereof. For example, say expenditure is 90% PL, 10% Epic unit. Reaching the 10th level mark still costs 5000 PLs worth of effort, but that's 4,000 PL spent and 10 Epic units sacrificed to accidents.

  Serpenteye answered:

   I should have read this part first. It's actually quite good. It wouldn't add a lot of complication to the system to add one more step in the creation of PLs and one more variable to the research of magic. I would have to use another word for it to reduce confusion, or I could just widen my definition of Power Points.
Now I feel like an idiot. But that's a good thing, indicative of the quality of our players. Kudos.


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## Serpenteye (Dec 6, 2004)

New thread: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=109539

Edena: Wow. Thanks 

I'm logging off now, I'll be back tomorrow to answer your questions. 

Good night.


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## Serpenteye (Dec 6, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (exhausted look)
> 
> Ok guys, I have a Megapost to post.  It took the last 3 hours just to create it.  It is intended to clarify things.  Your specific power is in this post:  just scroll down through it until you find it.




Hey, Edena. Take it easy, I'm the one who's supposed to be exhausted. We don't want any burned out players either.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Dec 6, 2004)

Should we now use the new thread exclusively?

Edena, go ahead and put up my email on the list.


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## Airwhale (Dec 6, 2004)

Okay,

So, I'm curious, If I were to pick the SpellJamers, how would the game mechanics work?  Would the land I have clamed be off world?  Would that make things harder/easier when I war?  Would I be like a corner power in diplomacy?  (Hard to kill, but hard to win the game) 

All this failing, sure, I'll be the Celestial Bureaucracy/Imperium.  Them orental dragons and immortal monks look fun.

Or I'll be anything Zelda wants to be. Whatever, I'm easy.


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## Bugbear (Dec 6, 2004)

All right after much consideration, I've decided to join in, claiming Nyrond and the duchy and county of Urnst. Provided no one object of course.

Here's a quick history of "Greater Nyrond", as I like to call it:

Nyrond was hard hit by the Greyhawk Wars, with almost a hundred thousand dead, starvation, disease, and thoughts of rebelion spread like wildfire. The new king, a vibrant and young man named Lynwerd managed to save his kingdom from the predations of the Aerdy, and was now faced with even greater task of saving his kingdom from itself.

Over the next fifteen years, Lynwerd dedicated his life to the reconstruction of Nyrond. Using monies borrowed from the Urnst States, he rebuilt the smashed cities, repopulated the empty countryside, and established new trade routes, earning him the name "Lynwerd the Rebuilder".

Lynwerd also sought to provide a lasting peace in Nyrond, negotiating treaties with the remnants of once great Aerdy, often at great cost. Lynwerd surrendered all lands captured by Nyrond in the Greyhawk wars and even gifted small portions of Nyrond itself to sucure this peace, earning him the name "Lynwerd the Appeaser".

In CY598 The Duke of Urnst died leaving no heir, making Lynwerd the new Duke. Lynwerd Unified Nyrond, and the Urnsts under one banner and one king. With the influx of goods, services and Labor from the new territorres, Nyrond quickly prospered into a nation as great, if not greater than it was before the wars.

Lynwerd died in CY 603 passing the throne of Greater Nyrond to his cousin *Seth Rhynnon*, a high noble from the County of Urnst. Durring the Wars, a young Rhynnon, fought along side the Knights of the Sheild against the armies of Iuz to liberate the Sheild Lands. Though Rhynnon has had the throne for less than a year, he is popular among the people of Greater Nyrond, especially amongst the Urnst peoples who are esstatic to see one of their own on the throne.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2004)

Airwhale, Bugbear, and the rest of you:  may I post your e-mails openly on my megathread above?


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## Creamsteak (Dec 6, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Ok guys, I have a Megapost to post.  It took the last 3 hours just to create it.  It is intended to clarify things.  Your specific power is in this post:  just scroll down through it until you find it.




Edena, for the good of your own health, please slow down. I firmly believe that perhaps your taking a bit "too much" on if your putting 3 hours into a post.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2004)

*To Melkor:  Again, urgent*

Again, welcome to the IR Melkor!  Hey there, nice to see you.
  You expressed an interest in running the Solistarim earlier.
  I created them, and a complete description of them is on pages 7, 8, and 9 of this thread.

  They are quite evil, xenophobic, and consider the Flanaess their backyard, with a bunch of trespassing louts and riff-raff tromping on the grass.  And since the louts and riff-raff refuse to leave when asked, they will just have to be removed.  
  The Solistarim are not one race.  They are a cosmopolitan nation of many lawful and neutral evil races coexisting under rigid laws, strict law enforcement, and deeply propagandized loyalty to the leadership (magical, in some cases.)
  A hierachy of mages rules the Solistarim, so the Solistarim could be called a Magocracy.  The High Leader of the Solistarim is considered a diety by the Solistarim, and he might just be a diety in this IR.

  Like the Martians in War of the Worlds, they are looking south from their cold, forbidding mountains and caverns, at the green, lush, warm lands of the Flanaess, with vast intellect and unsympathetic thoughts, and greed is in their hearts.


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## Bugbear (Dec 6, 2004)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Airwhale, Bugbear, and the rest of you:  may I post your e-mails openly on my megathread above?




Yes You may.  Litberg@Yahoo.com  Please put [IR] in the subject line so I may spot them easier.

And Edena, get some rest, there's allways tomorrow.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2004)

I'm ok.  And yes, I will slow down.

  I am still puzzling through the rules.  They are posted on page 13 of this thread.
  Obviously, Serpenteye will repost them on the new thread, as well.

  I'm guessing everyone is puzzling through the rules, and that some players haven't read them yet.  

  - - -

  Airwhale, are you claiming the Celestial Imperium, then?


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## James Heard (Dec 6, 2004)

Right now I'm organizing my own sort of "mega-thread" and compiling everything into a hopefully coherent document that everyone can use. You know, with headers, footers, and a format that's easy to read. Forums are nice and all, but there's an awful lot of info being passed around here. Having something to read offline and even maybe print could be useful. So I'm trying to be useful.

Right now I'm working out with Serpenteye on if my formula for figuring out how many Power Points to invest into IC each turn has turned horribly wrong, clarifying some other talking points, desperately trying to catch up with everyone's factions (because hopefully once it's nice and formatted it won't be a problem to do it ever again), and trying to figure out where to slash some of those pesky addendums into the Rules portion of the document. If anyone wants a preliminary copy of the thing, send me an email at dunlandor@earthlink.net with I WANT THE 5TH IR in the header (please). There's bound to be significant, horrific errors in my editing - so please be gentle if you find out that I've mistakenly accorded you control over the cows of Oerth.


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## Airwhale (Dec 6, 2004)

I'm curious how the game will handle Spelljamers before I make my final choice... waiting to hear back from SE. Also seeing if Zelda chimes in with his thoughts.

Oh, I think I'm okay with having my e-mail up, but I am afraid of e-mail mineing... has anyone had a non-obfuscated e-mail adress up here and not gotten spam?  These boards may be hard to traverse with a bot...

Doing something like scgeerTHISISNOTPARTOFTHEEMALADDRESS int he gmail.com service is okay.

edit: It seems that individual posts here are able to be picked up by google, so, as I have had to abandon one email due to spam, I'm going to have to say no to  having my raw e-mail adress posted.  Obfuscated is fine though.


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## William Ronald (Dec 6, 2004)

Airwhale, Zelda is a woman ... and a better player than she thinks.  

Everyone, go to the new thread at http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=109539 for a mega post.     First, Bugbear and Melkor, it is good to see you here!


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## Serpenteye (Dec 6, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> I've been directed to join this by a friend, and damned if it don't look too cool not to.  That being said, is there still room open?




Welcome Nac Mac Feegle! There's still a lot of room open. 
(I hope nobody had to break your knees )



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> Hi all! Edena has informed me of this game, and i am considering joining, despite being absorped by studies, girlfiend and three other onlne games. I am considering playing either a Solistarim or some Underdark races. Where can I find  info on the Solistarim? Serpenteye, maybe I could create a joint power with someone else, like you and Mr Draco did in 3rd IR?




Hi Melkor, welcome!  Great to see you again.

Edena made a post about the Solistarim a few pages ago. The underdark under the Flannaes only has two factions so far so there's plenty of room, and then there's a lot of underdark in the West with pretty much anything you can imagine.
You can create a joint power, certainly. It's both easier and harder to play the game that way, in my experience.



			
				The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHH!! IT'S HIM!!!




 



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Serp, Edena, Will, Thom, GP. I love You all guys for the heart and effort that You are putting int our epic achievment.
> 
> And since my comp is broken, I cannot contribute as much as I want ... and apologise humbly for that.




No need for apologies, your RP-ing is quite a contribution. It really helps set the mood for the game.



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> I think that one issue needs explaination. Other was picked up by rest of the maginificient Players.
> 
> Armies need Upkeep ! Even Undead ones ... Necromacers need expensive resouces etc. Vampires need fancy coffins, ghouls need meat. Army need fresh corpses ... for replacement of rotten ones.
> 
> War should be expensive ! Very Expensive ! Guess why Iuz is living in backwater wasteland ? Not just because he's evil ... He's living in perpetual state of internal war with everything that breathes. So much evil races, evil humans, demons, elves and evil Boss just for good meansure. His hold is maybe seeming peaceful ... but in fact all it need to explode with violence is tiny spark. These huge armies, that I will posess to balance my ... unproductive country.    Are mostly serving as medieval equivalent of police forces. But Theocracy will be crushed, and Wolf-God would learn meaning of "Teufelkrieg".




Let's say that you all pay resources to create your armies (though your militias creates and maintains itself and need not be payed). A part of those resources are the costs of training and equipment and another cost are the 1-year cost of paying and maintaining the army. One year is a long time in an IR, so problem solved. 



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Anyone ... who understands rules, how about short term gains ? Pillage and juice out someone ... ( Permamently Burning out the land's PL's) to push out faster resouces, money, slaves etc. And leave desolated ruin behind ...
> 
> I think that it may be achieved that way: You need army to pillage province, and this army would be useless for other actions ... troops are busy.
> 
> At the start of next turn You are gaining additional Pl's but amount of additional PL's is destroying productivity of pillaged province by amount 1 to 1. And when it would reach 0 PL potential ... it meant that the province's economy in question was simply destroyed, not left even one standing stone ... woods cut out, or burned every people fled or killed or taken into slavery, or as cusine. And to rebuild it You need to allocate PL's from other sources. What od You think of this ?




We don't really need rules for that. It's all pretty intuitive and I'll handle it when it comes up. Of course looting and pillaging is a source of wealth, historically that's how armies got most of their pay until the 18th century civilized warfare somewhat.



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Issue 2: Population. I would put it simply ... use spare PL's to improve wellbeing of Your people. For example, Iuz might build Colloseum so citizens might watch spilled blood and return home content ... and don't kill neighbourn out of boredom, today.
> 
> Less deaths, imigration by fools who heard that in particular place streets are made of gold. Or that Iuz's soldiers eat warm meal every day !




-"Why would Iuz the Cruel care about the wellbeing of his people?"
-"Because they taste better marinated in endorphines."
 

Again, that's a bit detailed for most people. I myself think it would be neat, but I can already picture a lot of our players groaning about the additional rules. 

You can do most of this stuff for free (always within reason). And if you want something really spectacular for role-playing purposes I'll let you pay a few PLs, as I find appropriate at the time. It probably won't have a major effect on the mechanical aspects of the game, but it will sure impress some NPCs.



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Since setting is almost medieval, how with such quietly devastating magics like "Contagion" ? Disease spreading like wildfire may ruin many countries ...
> 
> And without Clerical Magic ... one word, without Iuz.
> Read history books about what Black Plague did to medieval Europe, sweetcheeks.




The thing about an epidemic is that you never know where it's going to spread... But yes, that's a viable tactic. A mere Contagion spell won't do much, though, the effect will fade as it spreads to a greater amount of people and DnDiseases are kindof lame anyway. Few of them are lethal. However, when the strategy is used on a greater scale...



			
				Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> But it is concerning me greatly in other possible fighting point. Battles ... For example, here is list of troubles that I spotted:
> 
> -What if enemy is fighting with superior tactics ? Iuz might destroy supply lines of overhelmingly stronger Fuoryndy army of expensive medieval Knights. During this time his goblin worg riders, being cheap and mobile would harass their enemies from afar, mostly by shotting voleys of arrows from safe distance and retreating out of sight of the Knights. Im open combat, Fuoryndy Elite units will crush Iuz's Regular gobbos packs. Fev days without supplies, no cleric to create food and water, morale dropping frustration growing ... all wells poisoned, no livestock to plunder. They sta to eat their own horses ! Goblins well fed, after many "wictories" as Iuz said morale hig ... And when my godling feel safe in knowing that Fuoryndians are too exchausted to put much a fight, slaughter them during the night !    :\
> 
> I will write more later. Kisses for Eclavdra.




Hmm. I cannot create rules detailed enough to reflect that very well and even if I could they would just be a major head-ache for most of our players.
 But there's actually few lines in the rules that should do a lot in this regard.
The attacker, that would be you in this case, in a specific area of the battle rolls to damage the defender before the defender rolls to damage the attacker. That makes the first strike rather important since the damage done depends on the relative strength of the two sides. The side who uses the best tactics or has the best position will generally count as the attacker.

The rest I'll simply rule on the spot.




			
				The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> Duergar are almost non existant if they are existant in Greyhawk at all. For the rest... Kua Toa are weak and low in numbers. In canon that is. But it's the IR so that's easily changed. I was just thinking in canon hehe so yup that's true and could make a cool Underdark alliance.
> 
> The Duergar most of all would fit brilliantly in the IR.... NE and LE dwarves who are OBSESSED with their crafts and works. They live endless lives of toil and craft deep under the world above them caring for nothing else. They could most singlemindedly chase after the secrets of technology and invention... Now I think of it, Duergar would be the perfect IR race and civilisation, even moreso then dwarves and gnomes due to the singlemindedness of their persuits. Where Kuo Toa fit into that, I don't know but still.
> 
> ...




Quite right. The Duergar are very appropriate. That is, unless you want to play Greater Nyrond or (possibly, depending on what Eluvan decides) the Kevellond League?...



			
				The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> Rules can be broken, a GM's judgement not. Keep it simple is my advice.




Ahh, Forsaken One, your confidence is reassuring .



			
				Bugbear said:
			
		

> Greetings and salutations,
> 
> I recived WR's E-mail earlier this week and have been pouring over the thread and decifering the rules and have decided to say hi. I haven't decided if I want to partake in the festivites as of yet.
> 
> Oh and *Eluvan*, The 'Kevellond League' was an alliance of William's factions, consisting (IIRC) of Keoland, Gran Marc, The Duchy of Ulek, and the County of Ulek. It does not exist outside of the 3rd IR.




Hi. And you are very welcome to the 5th IR .

Please partake. Getting a hangover i's a worry for another day. 

I don't think the Ulek states were ever menbers of the League, they had their own faction under Dagger (?).



			
				James Heard said:
			
		

> I'd just like to say that I'm working on a document compiling and um, clarifying (I hope) the rules, maps, and faction list for the 5th IR. I'm not sure what to do with it exactly. I started working on it so I could stop bouncing around the thread looking for things and so that I could understand the rules better. I'm loathe to post it for fear that I've made some error and because it's as unfinished as of right now, but if Serpenteye would like the file for review or if a significant amount of people think it's ok I might be convinced to post the WIP version here or in another thread. I'm unfamiliar with what ENWorld does to copy/paste formatting from rtf docs when you plop it down in the forum reply box, is it bad? Magnificent? Not worth the trouble? Is there a word count maximum on forum posts?




Wonderful, I think since I haven't seen it. It saves me the trouble of having to look trough my own rambling posts.
I'm not sure about the copy/paste formatting, but I'd certainly like a copy. 




			
				Eluvan said:
			
		

> Ah, that explains it just beautifully, thankyou. Well, if it's generally felt that it should also exist in the 5th IR, I'd be happy to take it on.




It does fill in the map nicely, and the countries are similar in culture and general alignment. Mostly Neutral (humans usually are) with plenty of Good.




			
				Bugbear said:
			
		

> *The gospel of Serpenteye:*
> 
> In other words, they don't. Heh, puts the theocracy of the pale at distinct disadvantage dontcha think.




That puts pretty much everyone at a distinct disadvantage .
 No, really, it fit with my first outline of what I would like the game to be like. I wanted the players in the centrum and not overshadowed by the Gods (something I stole entirely from Edena, btw). I wanted there to be form a spiritual void in the hearts of mortal men because their prayers would go unanswered. Who then would they turn to if not the most powerful and prominent people in the world, the PCs?
 I also wanted to remove the ability to raise the dead. I find that in a lot of high-level games, and an IR is a high-level game if anything, Raise Dead and Resurrection screw up the plot. Those spells make a lot of the actions of both players and opposition irrelevant since it's almost impossible to get somebody to stay dead. Then what's the point of killing someone in the first place?

Ergo, no clerical spells.   




			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I don't think it's entirely necessary for it to exist, personally.  While the 3rd IR should be remembered and revered, it shouldn't necessarily restrict our options for this game.




Indeed. It's not necessary at all, but it does make a big and powerful Good/Neutral faction on a continent that sorely lack such things. It will be a source of conflict, and conflict always makes things interesting. 
It's not merely a relic, it actually serves a purpose.



			
				Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Yes, quite, you can expect me to play.  Nothin' quite like getting to be a conniving bastard AND getting free XP .
> 
> Out of curiousity, is it accepted to make up a new faction?  If so I have my eye on a powerful psionic group, if not, I'll take another look at the current factions.




Heh, there's no lack of XP to be made here either. 

Paxus and Knight Otu answered that pretty well.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> A number of new factions have certainly been created, but one thing that we seem to be worrying about is making sure that all of the existing factions get assigned, so Serpenteye doesn't need to worry about running them as well as the game overall.




Yeah.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> You could always choose to combine the two - for example, while the Cult of Ashardalon is (semi-)made up, it is the real power behind the throne of the United Kingdom.




The United Kingdom? God save the Queen! Poor Tony Blair, I always thoght the power behing the british throne was GWB   

(Sorry, sorry. No real world politics, I know.) 



			
				Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Okay, I need to read the whole thread so that I'm up on the rules, but I think I like the idea of combining two faction/ideas, so I'm thinking a hidden cabal of powerful psionics behind a current faction (which faction, well, I haven't read enough to decide).
> 
> Give me a day or so and I'll be able to be more specific.




Greater Nyrond (+the Urnsts) is a major faction in a good position. You'll be quite powerful with them.




			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> How about this?
> 
> Gallador`s Concord: Gallador The Undying King, Master of The Night Eternal is an ancient Vampire who was banished to the Underdark centuries ago . For ages ha has waged a war of conquest and deception, and now with the current dramatic events, his attention is brought back to the surface world!
> 
> ...




Sweet! 

"From beneath you it devours."




			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Melkor: Most of the goblinoid servitor races actually fall under the purview of the Wolf God. Any that you could find would be from the deepest parts of the Underdark, such as quaggoth or grimlocks.




You control a lot of Goblinoids Paxus, enough goblinoids in fact that the vast majority of them are under your rule. But you do not own an entire race, no faction does that, and there are Goblins under Melkor, and Creamsteak (slaves+food) and Edena (more slaves) and others to a lesser degree.

Edena does not control all Drow, Creamsteak does not control all Illithids, Thomas does not control all Elves and so on.




			
				Eluvan said:
			
		

> Alright. I've done some reading, and in the spirit of community and helping out the IR in general (well, that and I think it would be cool ) I hereby relinquish my claim to the Sepherds of Darkness. Instead I would like to claim Keoland, the Gran March, the Duchy of Ulek, and Sterich - collectively, the League of Athyr. I don't want to take the Kevellond League per se because, as Anabstercorian said, it would be nice to pay the 3rd IR the respect it deserves and then move on and come up with our own ideas. If anyone feels that I've screwed this up (or my understanding of the politics and geography of the area is somehow flawed), please tell me and I'll revise my ideas. I realise that most everybody else here knows more about the setting than I do, so any and all input is appreciated. Similarly, if people have a problem with the Kevellond League failing to make an appearance in this IR, tell me and I'll start over.
> 
> ...
> ...
> ...




Granted.

(Nice post )



			
				Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Mmm.  Good point.  Perhaps it simply allows them to spend pure PLs, as opposed to sacrificing epic units.  It's not much of a benefit (all they really save is the trouble of converting PLs to units to elite units to epic units), but it's there.  Perhaps combined with the "Each epic unit counts this much more when casting epic spells" it could work.  Again, I don't know if the magic factions actually need a boost.
> 
> Huzzah!
> 
> ...





The less we have to change in the rules the better. It gives us all a lot less new information to learn. 

Stockpiling PPts for multiple turns would be counter-productive, better to invest them quickly and reap the rewards over a longer time. (Better to have money in the bank than in the matress.)

This kind of trade seems quite complicated. I think I'll just rule it on the fly.


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## Zelda Themelin (Dec 6, 2004)

Airwhale said:
			
		

> Okay,
> 
> So, I'm curious, If I were to pick the SpellJamers, how would the game mechanics work?  Would the land I have clamed be off world?  Would that make things harder/easier when I war?  Would I be like a corner power in diplomacy?  (Hard to kill, but hard to win the game)
> 
> ...




I really don't feel so comfortable playing neither of them. But if you want to, pick either, which means I will remain in backseat, until I pick up the theme.

My idea of oriental is mostly based on Hongkong movies. 

Spelljammers, mmh, that's kind of even more confusing, especially since the funky rules. I can probably pick that up too, eventually. That would work fine after they are  clered out. There is also many factions of spelljammers and they are less than friendly compared to one another. 

Good questions by the way, not my favourite picks, but failing to come up with the master plan myself, they sound fine. 

Claim which you like best.


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## Serpenteye (Dec 6, 2004)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> A Cleric with no God gets no spells in 3E. It's that simple. The cleric's God is the source of their power.




It's that simple, almost. It's also possible to gain spells from worshiping an ideal, but the energy is still derived from the depths of the outer planes where the ideals exist in their pure form.  
Faith has power, and that power can sometines find it's focus even on the lest expected of places.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Technically, god-less clerics are possible, but that's not what you meant. I seem to remember reading things about access to 1st level spells, though that may have been 3rd-party material.




Not for the purpose of this IR.




			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Should we now use the new thread exclusively?




Yes. I will still answer your old posts here, but post everything new on the other thread.



			
				Airwhale said:
			
		

> Okay,
> 
> So, I'm curious, If I were to pick the SpellJamers, how would the game mechanics work?  Would the land I have clamed be off world?  Would that make things harder/easier when I war?  Would I be like a corner power in diplomacy?  (Hard to kill, but hard to win the game)
> 
> ...




Your land would be off world, which would make things much harder for your enemies, but not so much for you. You could definately make an impact on the game, though your PLs would not be very high a lot of them would be Elite.



			
				Bugbear said:
			
		

> All right after much consideration, I've decided to join in, claiming Nyrond and the duchy and county of Urnst. Provided no one object of course.
> 
> Here's a quick history of "Greater Nyrond", as I like to call it:




I have no objections  Welcome to the IR 



			
				Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Edena, for the good of your own health, please slow down. I firmly believe that perhaps your taking a bit "too much" on if your putting 3 hours into a post.




Yes, as I wrote earlier, I'm the one who's supposed to get exhausted over this. Take it easy. You are one player of many, and though I need all the help you can give me I'm the one who has to carry the game.




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> A cautionary note here:  If the rules seem too complicated, they may drive people off.  And the rules seem to be getting pretty complicated.  I'm reminded a bit of Star Fleet Battles here.




Some players are requesting more detailed rules, to simulate trade, public works or battlefield-tactics. Since they are not getting that, and since some of you are asking for reduction and simplification I'll consider the current level of rules a good compromize.
I'll try to put everything together in such a way as to make it comprehensible to most of us. If the rules are only well-written I have no doubt that they are easy enough by themselves for everyone to be able to handle them. You all know hoow to play DnD and there are a lot more rules in that game.


----------



## Creamsteak (Dec 6, 2004)

Want this thread closed?


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2004)

Remember to archive this thread, Creamsteak.


----------



## Serpenteye (Dec 6, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Want this thread closed?




Yes please.


----------



## Rikandur Azebol (Dec 6, 2004)

Yes, You may post my @mail Edena.


----------

