# Advanced Player's Guide questions



## tsadkiel (Oct 1, 2008)

I couldn't wait for my preorder, so I snagged the PDF.  It's marvelous, but of course there will be questions.  Here's mine -

Any way for a Martial Artist to gain an enhancement bonus on their Chi powers?  I don't see any reference to any sort of implement.  Troubadors have a similar problem, since they don't have any published implements, but other magic items can be reskinned.

EDIT - What paragon paths does a Spellbinder qualify for?  EDITEDIT - Already answered in the book.  You win this round, Marmell!


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 1, 2008)

tsadkiel said:


> Any way for a Martial Artist to gain an enhancement bonus on their Chi powers?  I don't see any reference to any sort of implement.  Troubadors have a similar problem, since they don't have any published implements, but other magic items can be reskinned.




Yeah, that's about the biggest omission, I'm afraid. When I first designed the classes, I'd planned to talk a little bit about magic items as regards the new classes, but in all the back-and-forth with the companies, and several levels of redesign, it _totally_ slipped off my radar. 

Essentially, I suggest making gloves or fist wraps available as magic "weapons." They add their enhancement bonus to attack and damage, but they only work with unarmed attacks. As far as the troubadour, I suggest "reskinning" staffs as standards, and orbs as instruments.


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## StickPerson (Oct 1, 2008)

Hmmm, items for Martial Artists and Troubadours.  Seems like a good opportunity for a web enhancement download...


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 1, 2008)

StickPerson said:


> Hmmm, items for Martial Artists and Troubadours.  Seems like a good opportunity for a web enhancement download...




Not a bad idea, really. I'm not sure when/if I'd have time for it, but it's something to consider...


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 1, 2008)

Oh, as far as the reskinning, I'd use holy symbols for the druid's fetishes.

But yeah, it was definitely a mistake for me to neglect a magic item section for this book--at least one giving reskinning advice, if not offering actual new items. Sorry, guys; I've never put together a book quite like this before.


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## jensun (Oct 1, 2008)

Where did you buy the pdf?


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 1, 2008)

jensun said:


> Where did you buy the pdf?




Well, I can't swear this is where he got it, but it's available here: Advanced Player's Guide [XRP8001] - $12.00 : Your Games Now, Publisher Co-Op


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## MerricB (Oct 1, 2008)

Bought! Downloaded!

Wow... Ari, congratulations on the Lingering Injury rules! They look fantastic. Have you been using them in your games?

Cheers!


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## garyh (Oct 1, 2008)

I stuck to the hard copy version and can't wait to get this in my hands as soon as the USPS can manage.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 1, 2008)

MerricB said:


> Bought! Downloaded!
> 
> Wow... Ari, congratulations on the Lingering Injury rules! They look fantastic. Have you been using them in your games?




I haven't, actually, since A) I haven't been running (though I'm about to start), and B) Most of my group aren't into the "grim-n-gritty" style.

But I'd love to do so.


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## WhatGravitas (Oct 1, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Essentially, I suggest making gloves or fist wraps available as magic "weapons." They add their enhancement bonus to attack and damage, but they only work with unarmed attacks. As far as the troubadour, I suggest "reskinning" staffs as standards, and orbs as instruments.



Concerning this: Does cloth armour count as "armour" for untouchable?

Because technically speaking, it is armour as well (which is why all characters receive proficiency with it)... I reckon that clothing (though also classified as "cloth armour") definitively isn't armour - but what about the masterwork versions?

But I'm impressed by the book in general. The races martial artist and savage warrior are a bit bland (even for generic classes), but the rest is good stuff. And I love the extra rules (crafting, rituals, lingering injury), they really make the book for me! Acrobat is also a neat Paragon Path. 

Though I have to admit, I've grown to like the 4E presentation, the book (as PDF) is certainly harder on the eyes and less easy to digest - but then, it of course has a different scope than a full PHB made by WotC.

Cheers, LT.


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## MerricB (Oct 1, 2008)

I ran into one power that made me go huh? The troubadour's "Glib Tongue". 10th level? Really? (I was comparing it to the Paladin's 2nd level Astral Speech).

I guess a lot of the design work was done before 4e was properly released, Ari?

Cheers!


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 1, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> Concerning this: Does cloth armour count as "armour" for untouchable?




No, it doesn't. Sorry for not making that clearer.



MerricB said:


> I ran into one power that made me go huh? The troubadour's "Glib Tongue". 10th level? Really? (I was comparing it to the Paladin's 2nd level Astral Speech).
> 
> I guess a lot of the design work was done before 4e was properly released, Ari?




Yeah, it was, and a lot of numbers changed even up to the last minute. 

I'd suggest upping the bonuses granted by _glib tongue_ to +4.


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## tsadkiel (Oct 2, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Well, I can't swear this is where he got it, but it's available here: Advanced Player's Guide [XRP8001] - $12.00 : Your Games Now, Publisher Co-Op




I can swear that's where I got it.

Thanks, Ari!  It's great to be able to get answers like this straight from the author.


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## tsadkiel (Oct 2, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, as far as the reskinning, I'd use holy symbols for the druid's fetishes.




Heh.  I didn't even notice that one - I guess I'd already made the conversion in my head.


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## Gothmog (Oct 2, 2008)

Congrats on the release of the APG Ari and Joe!  I got mine in today, and I have to say, you knocked the ball out of the part on the APG Ari!  Great job.  I love the way you took the Nature Priest and Spellbinder- they scream 1e druid and illusionist.


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## StickPerson (Oct 2, 2008)

So I just ordered my copy. Can’t wait for its arrival, druid and barbarian like characters are sorely missed by me and I look forward to the spellbinder. 

Ari, can you tell us about any other 4th edition projects you have in the works?


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 2, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> Congrats on the release of the APG Ari and Joe!  I got mine in today, and I have to say, you knocked the ball out of the part on the APG Ari!  Great job.  I love the way you took the Nature Priest and Spellbinder- they scream 1e druid and illusionist.




I preordered at the begining of Sept...I know Mega loth you for getting it...I am on pins an needles...


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 2, 2008)

StickPerson said:


> Ari, can you tell us about any other 4th edition projects you have in the works?




Well, let's see...

I can talk about some of the stuff that's already been announced. I worked on _Draconomicon I_, and both the _Player's Guide_ and _Campaign Setting_ for Eberron. I've just finished up work on another book, I'm talking to the WotC folks about another one, and I've got _several_ articles and adventures coming up for Dragon and Dungeon. But since none of those have been publicly announced, I'm afraid I can't talk about what they are.

I also did a bit of work for Code Monkey's upcoming 4E _Blackmoor_ conversion.


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## Spatula (Oct 2, 2008)

Love the idea of the monk's bonus striker damage - at first I didn't even realize that's what it was, thinking it was some oddly weak attack power...  Clever and fits in nicely with the flavor of the class.


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## Baumi (Oct 2, 2008)

Will it be available on RPGNow?


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Oct 2, 2008)

I hope to have my copy to read this weekend.  I've missed bards so.


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## Jack99 (Oct 2, 2008)

Can't wait for it to arrive over here, although it probably will be a while. Sorta starting to regret I didn't buy the PDF version. Ah well. Patience would be a wonderful thing to have...


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## thundershot (Oct 2, 2008)

Arrgh! Nothing in the mail yet. Though it upsets me a little that several errors have already been found.... At least Ari is here to help out with suggestions... 



Chris


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 2, 2008)

thundershot said:


> Arrgh! Nothing in the mail yet. Though it upsets me a little that several errors have already been found.... At least Ari is here to help out with suggestions...




Have no doubt, it upsets me, too. 

Not that they were found, I mean.  That they're there at all.

I could fall back on the fact that I've never put together a book quite like this, or that I was new to the system, or that the system was still in flux while I was coming up with some of this, and all that would be true... But it doesn't change the fact that I should have caught/realized a lot of this, and I didn't.

I truly believe this is an excellent resource, and I'm proud of how the book came out. Still, for the errors that did creep in, I certainly apologize.


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## tsadkiel (Oct 2, 2008)

Having had some time to digest the book, I'm impressed with the variety of character concepts it supports.  Yes, Elan and the rest of the Order of the Stick are now viable 4E characters, but so are Li Mu Bai (Martial Artist/Acrobat, focused on movement and weapon powers), Hercules (Savage Warrior/Ferocious Brawler/Demigod), and even Yuna (wisdom-based Cleric multiclassed into Nature Priest for summoning).  And the Troubador appears to have taken some of the Factotum's stuff.


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## Fifth Element (Oct 2, 2008)

Baumi said:


> Will it be available on RPGNow?



Considering the publisher, signs point to 'no'.


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## Halivar (Oct 2, 2008)

No, Mouse, you're doing it all wrong! _It wasn't a mistake_, see? Rather, you wanted to make sure that _further, for-pay_ expansions to the APG had _value-add_. You know... the APG2 that's going to have gish, psionics and kender? It'll have a section all for alternative class implements, too. And a section of summon materia.

All right, guys, I'll be taking over duties as Mouse's PR rep, since he's gonna be pretty busy for the next few months. Just go ahead and direct all his questions to me.

Alright, Mouse, back to work! *WWHHPSSSHH!!!*


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## catsclaw227 (Oct 3, 2008)

*Advanced Player's Guide - XRP and Ari Marmel - Anyone have it yet?*

Here's another one that I'd love to get some feedback about. How do the new classes play along with the core classes and are there any interesting combinations of race and class?


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## tsadkiel (Oct 3, 2008)

Yes.


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## Klaus (Oct 3, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Not a bad idea, really. I'm not sure when/if I'd have time for it, but it's something to consider...



Put together a web-enhancement and I'm in for providing a line-art picture of the cover party to illustrate it.


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## tsadkiel (Oct 3, 2008)

Here's the email I sent my players about the book -

Three new races:

Earth Gnome - Bonuses to Int and Con. The traditional, talking to
burrowing mammals gnome, rather than the new Gninja Gnomes found in
the Monster Manual.

Orc-Blooded - Bonuses to Strength and Wisdom. Half orcs, basically.
Good at hitting people very hard. Have a fever of a hundred and three.

Shire Halfling - Stats are in the preview. Also, I'm playing one
right now.

Five New classes:

Martial Artist - Monk. Divine Striker. Uses Dex and Wis. They move
fast, and gain bonuses to AC. While Rogues get bonus damage by
striking with surprise, warlocks get bonus damage by cursing people,
and rangers get bonus damage because they hate the guy they're hitting
SO MUCH!!!!!, martial artists basically punch them in the kidneys -
it's an extra attack they can use once per round, with damage
comparable to a warlock's curse. Easier to use, but they have to roll
to hit. Martial artists have a nice mix of weapon and unarmed powers,
and at 16th level they can fight a duel on the surface of a lake.

Nature Priest - Druid. Divine Controller. Uses Wisdom and more
wisdom. Powers are split between summoning spirit animals and
controlling weather and the elements. They have a paragon path for
shapeshifting.

Savage Warrior - Barbarian. Martial Defender. Uses strength and more
strength. Bonuses to charge, and when they're bloodied they get
bonuses to hit and AC, and are more likely to crit.

Troubador - Bard. Arcane Leader. A few powers use Dex, but most use
Charisma. A little bit of magic, a little bit of swordplay, highly
skilled, and not necessarily musical. They're better than other
leaders at enhancing spellcasters in the party, and they have a few
powers that let them borrow powers from other party members. They're
also the best choice for non-combat focused characters, and everyman
types. I think I love them.

Spellbinder - Illusionist. Arcana Controller. Charisma focused.
Sort of a subclass, since they borrow several powers from wizards, fey
warlocks, and troubadors.


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## Riley (Oct 3, 2008)

Not a question, but a comment:  I received my copy of the APG in the mail today, and it looks truly great!  I obviously haven't read it all yet, but I'm very impressed with the Druid* and Illusionist.*  The whole book really lives up to the '1e feel,' and it looks like it'll fit in very easily with the 4e rules.

Thanks!

(*: or whatever you've had to call them)


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## Riley (Oct 3, 2008)

I just received the book yesterday, so I can't offer any actual in-play insights, but the book rocks.  So far, I can say that I love the druid and the illusionist (you can see a good chunk of the druid in the free preview).  Looking at the powers, they look like they'd stack up fine next to the 4e PHB classes.

The only shortcoming of the book is the cover: it should've been a hardcover featuring an illustration of an adventuring party in front of a huge demon idol, with a rogue about to pry the gem out of the idol's eye socket.


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## TerraDave (Oct 3, 2008)

Just downloaded this and Plague. Best $19 I ever spent. 

But, is Orc-Blooded now the best (melee) cleric, (melee) ranger, and fighter?


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## TerraDave (Oct 3, 2008)

merging double post


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## Eridanis (Oct 3, 2008)

Merged threads. Carry on!


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## JustKim (Oct 3, 2008)

Is the print version available anywhere other than Paizo? I'm not finding it at the places I normally shop.


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## Halivar (Oct 3, 2008)

JustKim said:


> Is the print version available anywhere other than Paizo? I'm not finding it at the places I normally shop.



Advanced Player's Guide


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## JustKim (Oct 3, 2008)

Aha, thank you!


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## davethegame (Oct 3, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Here's another one that I'd love to get some feedback about. How do the new classes play along with the core classes and are there any interesting combinations of race and class?




Just finished posting my review:
Review: “Advanced Player’s Guide” | Critical Hits

But actual play is probably going to have to wait a bit. Maybe I can talk some people into a one-shot for the specific purpose of using them.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 3, 2008)

How did they mail them out. Mail..ups..???I didn't get it in US mail today...does that mean I wont have it this weekend


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## Sitara (Oct 3, 2008)

Well theofficialBarbarian class is coming out in 3 days on Dragon. It will be interesting tosee how Ari Marmells version compares tothat one.


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## thundershot (Oct 3, 2008)

I got mine today! I only had a chance to flip through it a bit. I discovered one bad thing about a B&W 4E book... I kinda like the green/red/gray color coding of the powers. Makes them stand out more. It won't matter after I make power cards for them, but still...




Chris


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## Spatula (Oct 3, 2008)

One design that I admit to not fond of is the barbarian as a defender.  It's been assumed that the WotC version will also go this route (I guess we'll find out for sure on Monday), so I think that choosing a different direction would have made a 3rd party "savage warrior" stand out more.

(personally I think the barbarian concept would work best as a 2H weapon striker that is adept at surviving attacks rather than avoiding them, as the ranger and the rogue are)

As it is, the savage warrior is an unusual defender.  Its AC is very poor (light armor, no real reason for Dex or Int other than AC, and the class build advice assigns a low priority to Dex), but to an extent the class _wants_ to get hit to activate the Fury ability.  And the Fury ability feels strange - better crits (good), bonus to hit (good), higher AC (...?).  I'm guessing the rationale is that the class isn't supposed to be harder to hit (with weapons only) but rather harder to hurt; it works out in a way but looks odd at first sight vs some kind of "resist all" mechanic.


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## DonAdam (Oct 3, 2008)

I got my copy yesterday. I haven't had a chance to look through it more that cursorily, but I am pleased with the scope of the material.

I also wondered about the monk's enhancement bonuses.

One question I haven't seen asked: what happened to the Spellbinder's level 1 daily's?


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## garyh (Oct 3, 2008)

TerraDave said:


> Just downloaded this and Plague. Best $19 I ever spent.
> 
> But, is Orc-Blooded now the best (melee) cleric, (melee) ranger, and fighter?




Longtooth shifters have +2 to Str and Wis, and I imagine it would be a rare DM that would allow the APG but for some reason not allow material from the Monster Manual.  So my answer would be "Orc-Blooded is no more dominant in those areas than a core MM race, so I don't see a problem."  It's also no more dominant than dragonborns are at paladins and inspiring warlords or halfings at artful rogues, elves at ranged rangers, and so forth.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 3, 2008)

Spatula said:


> One design that I admit to not fond of is the barbarian as a defender.




I'm actually not sure if the WotC barbarian is going to be a defender or a striker, honestly.

In either case, yeah, I went back and forth on that a lot, myself. Ultimately, I decided that the barbarian's ability to take all sorts of punishment and keep on going, at least as I envisioned it, was just more appropriate for a defender. And yeah, unlike other defenders, his shtick is less about not being hit and more about not caring that you hit him. 

He _does_ have a marking ability, though I admit it's not nearly as prevalent of the paladin's or fighter's. (Part of Savage Charge.) I wanted to see if I could design a solid defender that didn't rely on marks as much. Time will tell if I've succeeded, I guess.



DonAdam said:


> One question I haven't seen asked: what happened to the Spellbinder's level 1 daily's?




*blink*

Oh, son of a _bitch_... 

Okay, I have no idea if that was my mistake or a printing error. I'll check my files when I get back home on Saturday and find out.  (I have a horrible suspicion it was mine. Let me tell you, there's a reason WotC doesn't assign people to design five classes in rapid succession; your eyes start to bleed...) In either case, I'll have errata on that sent to Joe before the end of the weekend.



davethegame said:


> Just finished posting my review:
> Review: “Advanced Player’s Guide” | Critical Hits




I appreciate the review--the good and the bad both.


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## thundershot (Oct 3, 2008)

You could make it up to us by having the updated pdf version free for people who bought the dead tree version.... *nudge nudge hint hint*






Chris


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## Phaezen (Oct 3, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> I'm actually not sure if the WotC barbarian is going to be a defender or a striker, honestly.




I am hoping striker, as it would be interesting an nice to see the difference the two roles could make to a raging warrior.



Mouseferatu said:


> In either case, I'll have errata on that sent to Joe before the end of the weekend.



And here I was about to buy the pdf, I hope you don't mind too much if I hold off a short while .  Impatient people could use the Phantom Chasm daily from Dragon 364 for a close-ish? fit.

Phaezen


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 3, 2008)

thundershot said:


> You could make it up to us by having the updated pdf version free for people who bought the dead tree version.... *nudge nudge hint hint*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh yeah that sounds fair to me as well! Now I just have to see how long before it winds it's merry way to NZ


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 3, 2008)

thundershot said:


> I got mine today! I only had a chance to flip through it a bit. I discovered one bad thing about a B&W 4E book... I kinda like the green/red/gray color coding of the powers. Makes them stand out more. It won't matter after I make power cards for them, but still...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's an interesting point Chris.

With PDF having all sorts of options, that doesn't sound impossible and it sounds like there's some errata that's going to have to be hit anyway. Maybe the old publishers will take that into account.


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 4, 2008)

Well I got it and I am liking it. Especially the monk, I just love his minor attack, a great way to do the strikers extra damage....elf monks as well -great fun speed 8! And as to the barbarian sorry Savage Warrior, I am really interested in seeing how one defends without marking (edit: I mean less reliance on marking)...marking can be annoying in the game so it is nice to see another mechanic.

Anyway do you want us to post errors, queries etc here Mouseferatu? Or email them or something. Just a few we have picked up so far:

1. Savage Charge is not as good as the PHB feat Fast Runner
2. Obfuscating Mist (SB Util 1) does not have a duration. 
3. No SB Daily 1st level powers.
4. Troubador Arcane Channel could just be a free action, I think. You can do a free action whenever you want, so you should be able to do it during an allies turn. If not just a free action it needs to be an imm interrupt as a reaction is taken after the action (i.e. the allies power) is totally resolved/finished. However if using it as a free action is not correct an immediate action definitely needs a trigger description.
5. Soothe the savage beast (Tr Daily 1)has the paralysis keyword which does not exist AFAIK.
6. IMO Demon Dance (MA Enc 1) which basically does [w] damage to every creature within 2 squares for the entire encounter is just a little over powered!


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## Evilhalfling (Oct 4, 2008)

new book.
I want it.


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## Gizmoduck5000 (Oct 4, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Have no doubt, it upsets me, too.
> 
> Not that they were found, I mean.  That they're there at all.
> 
> ...




Not to worry, we gamers are a clever lot and prone to tinkering, so we will be able to fill in any vacancies left in the book.

And since it turns out that "A Dance With Dragons" didn't come out this week afterall, I will be popping into my FLGS to pick this up post haste.

So take heart, a small chunk of my personal finances now belongs to you, and your work will soon be gracing my gaming table.


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## catsclaw227 (Oct 4, 2008)

Well if Ari and XRP tells me that they updated the PDF with the different editing problems that have come out I would buy the PDF immediately.  

Some of the edits that I see would be:

missing 1st level daily for spellbinder
martial artist weapons
alternate implements
editing the text to make barbarian marking clearer
glib tongue bonus to +4
making the powers color-coded


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## tsadkiel (Oct 4, 2008)

So, about the Spellbinder level one daily thing - I was looking at the Troubador, figuring they probably have something which could be used by a Spellbinder, and I noticed Imaginary Terrain.  Uses an implement, Illusion keyword - perfect, in other words.  Then I looked at the Spellbinder power list again, and Imaginary terrain is listed with the encounter powers, though the power text still says it's a daily.  Which is it supposed to be?


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 4, 2008)

tsadkiel said:


> So, about the Spellbinder level one daily thing - I was looking at the Troubador, figuring they probably have something which could be used by a Spellbinder, and I noticed Imaginary Terrain.  Uses an implement, Illusion keyword - perfect, in other words.  Then I looked at the Spellbinder power list again, and Imaginary terrain is listed with the encounter powers, though the power text still says it's a daily.  Which is it supposed to be?




Well, I don't have access to my books or files right now--I'm away from home until tomorrow evening--but it's entirely possible that my error was not one of omission, but simply neglecting to break out the level 1 dailies into their own section, but instead kept them under the same heading as the level 1 encounters.

If that proves to be the case, it's certainly a much easier fix. 

But again, I'll check tomorrow, as soon as I can.


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## Jack99 (Oct 4, 2008)

/derail thread



Gizmoduck5000 said:


> And since it turns out that "A Dance With Dragons" didn't come out this week afterall, I will be popping into my FLGS to pick this up post haste.




GRRM isn't done with the book yet, so that's no small surprise. His last update was January 1st, and he promised to post here again when he was done.

/rerail(?) thread


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 4, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> 1. Savage Charge is not as good as the PHB feat Fast Runner




True. OTOH, there's no minimum stat prereq, and they stack.  (Basically, I wanted a feat that mimics the ability many orcs to charge faster from the _MM_.)



> 2. Obfuscating Mist (SB Util 1) does not have a duration.




Any sustainable power that doesn't give a max duration can be sustained for up to 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter. )_PHB_, p. 278.)



> 3. No SB Daily 1st level powers.




Working on that as we speak. 



> 4. Troubador Arcane Channel could just be a free action, I think. You can do a free action whenever you want, so you should be able to do it during an allies turn. If not just a free action it needs to be an imm interrupt as a reaction is taken after the action (i.e. the allies power) is totally resolved/finished. However if using it as a free action is not correct an immediate action definitely needs a trigger description.




The "free" is extraneous. It's an immediate action. (It _does_ have a trigger description.) 



> 5. Soothe the savage beast (Tr Daily 1)has the paralysis keyword which does not exist AFAIK.




D'oh! Old keyword that got cut. Just ignore it. 



> 6. IMO Demon Dance (MA Enc 1) which basically does [w] damage to every creature within 2 squares for the entire encounter is just a little over powered!




Damn it! That's supposed to be a _daily_ power!

As far as the color-coding, I can't speak to that. That's the layout department, and I have no clue if it's something they can do easily or not. My guess is no, because the entire file is in black-and-white (as that's how it was published), but like I said, I'm just guessing.

Sending the errata list to Joe in just a few minutes. 

(And lest anyone get the wrong idea, while I'm _very_ sorry for these mistakes, I'm still quite proud of the book as a whole.)


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## Ghaerdon Fain (Oct 4, 2008)

Awesome job Ari!  I never bought non WotC 3x stuff ... I know so sad, even sadder if it was of this quality.  I got the PDF last night after reading the review and link here at EnWorld.  Thanks for the heads up.

QUESTION: Is the non pdf version in full colour?  If it is I'm sad because I was so hoping for a colour pdf 

Cheers


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 5, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> True. OTOH, there's no minimum stat prereq, and they stack.  (Basically, I wanted a feat that mimics the ability many orcs to charge faster from the _MM_.)



cool, fair enough.







> Any sustainable power that doesn't give a max duration can be sustained for up to 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter. )_PHB_, p. 278.)



what sustain? There is no sustain action listed???







> Working on that as we speak.



cool 


> The "free" is extraneous. It's an immediate action. (It _does_ have a trigger description.)



D'oh sorry ..how embarrassing!







> D'oh! Old keyword that got cut. Just ignore it.



 Will do, was going to just letting you know 


> Damn it! That's supposed to be a _daily_ power!



 Kay, still pretty awesome!







> Sending the errata list to Joe in just a few minutes.



 If we find more do you still want it here?







> (And lest anyone get the wrong idea, while I'm _very_ sorry for these mistakes, I'm still quite proud of the book as a whole.)



And you should be great book, especially since it was written with the rules in a state of flux. One might even say that the WotC core 3 probably have more errors per page!  Worth the money and I paid for the hardcopy and PDF  Keep it up and I'll keep buying.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 5, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> what sustain? There is no sustain action listed???




That's odd. Both my print copy and my PDF have "Sustain Minor" listed.



> Kay, still pretty awesome!




Yeah, it's definitely on the upper end. That's why I didn't include any stat mods.  But I wanted it to be a pretty good offensive stance, since the monk's a striker and most stances belong to the defenders.



> If we find more do you still want it here?




Here's just fine. Or e-mail me, either way you prefer.



> And you should be great book, especially since it was written with the rules in a state of flux. One might even say that the WotC core 3 probably have more errors per page!  Worth the money and I paid for the hardcopy and PDF  Keep it up and I'll keep buying.




Thanks.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghaerdon Fain said:


> Awesome job Ari!




Thank you. 



> QUESTION: Is the non pdf version in full colour?  If it is I'm sad because I was so hoping for a colour pdf




Nope, it's B&W.


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 5, 2008)

I haven't received my hardcover yet, hopefully soon! However the PDF from XRP has this for Obfuscating Mist [sblock]Obfuscating Mist Spellbinder Utility 2
A wide bank of mist rolls in out of nowhere, obscuring the 
area around you.
Daily • Arcane, Illusion
Standard Action Close burst 3
Effect: The  fog  blocks  line  of  sight. Although  it  initially 
forms around you, it does not move with you.[/sblock]If you want me to delete this please tell me and I'll get rid of it but it is not giving too much away


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 5, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> I haven't received my hardcover yet, hopefully soon! However the PDF from XRP has this for Obfuscating Mist [sblock]Obfuscating Mist Spellbinder Utility 2
> A wide bank of mist rolls in out of nowhere, obscuring the
> area around you.
> Daily • Arcane, Illusion
> ...




I think I can tolerate one power appearing here. 

It's odd, though. My copy has the following line at the end:



> *Sustain Minor: *The cloud persists.




I have _no idea_ why your PDF wouldn't have that when the book and my PDF do. That's the funkiest thing...

Guys? Can anyone else reading this thread who bought the PDF check their copy, please? I'd like to know if this is some sort of glitch in Mach's copy, or if it's endemic to all the YGN-purchased PDFs.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 5, 2008)

Oh! Wait a minute! I see what the problem is.

Somehow, I hadn't registered that you were looking at the _spellbinder_. I've been looking at the _nature priest_, where the power first appears.

The spellbinder version must not have gotten copied-and-pasted in its entirety.

I'll add that to the errata, but damn, I feel better knowing WTF is going on.


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 5, 2008)

I hope I haven't come off as too negative. I think this is a great book, and the '1st edition feel' is there. I DM now but when I used to play (after BECMI) my fave PCs where half orc fighter assassins and gnome illusionists so I love the book. I always even liked 3E bards despite their suckyness and I am happy to see a decent one here!

You can keep your druids and barbarians though! 

EDIT: cool weirdness solved


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## miscreationist (Oct 5, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Guys? Can anyone else reading this thread who bought the PDF check their copy, please? I'd like to know if this is some sort of glitch in Mach's copy, or if it's endemic to all the YGN-purchased PDFs.




My PDF also has nothing about sustaining in Obfuscating Mist in the Spellbinder section.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see you already figured it out Ari.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 5, 2008)

I just bought a pdf copy, and I've skimmed it.

My 1st impression....honestly its disappointment, and let me go through a few points and clarify why.

My first look was the martial artist. I thought the charge mechanic was a great idea. The extra attack is interesting, it lowers his big damage numbers but makes his damage more consistent, provided he has minor actions to spend. I think as levels get higher and a character needs those minor actions for more activations the mechanic is going to look weaker and weaker.

And then I saw the 1st level encounter power Demon Dance, and I'll admit I reread the power 5 times because I couldn't believe my eyes. It is much stronger than the Fighter's Rain of Steel (considered by some to be an overpowered power its in own right)...its 1st level....and its an encounter power! I think that is literally the strongest power I have seen to date. Sure this guy is a striker, but I don't think he's supposed to be mowing down every minion in sight at 1st level....every single fight.

I'll admit I stopped looking at the martial artist after that. I will go back and read the whole class, but if those are the kind of powers I'm going to be seeing I don't have a lot of hope for the book.


But hey, just because I find a part of a book I don't like, doesn't mean the rest of the book isn't good! So I read on. The troubador looks cool, but my eyes moved on to the savage warrior. I am playing a "barbarian" right now (fighter with some barbarianesque qualities) so I was itching to see this class.

Once again, the charge mechanic is a good innovation. The rest is...meh is the only thing I can say. Primal Resilience doesn't come close to making up for the loss of 3 or 4 AC in many cases (as neither dex nor int are prime stats) for barbarians. Fury looks neat, until you compare it to a fighter. As a fighter I get a +1 to attack rolls straight up. My fighter's AC is naturally higher all the time. The crit bump is the nicest part of the class, but eventually becomes overwritten by feats, magic items, and other crit enhancing abilities.

Further, the class doesn't feel like a defender to me. I only mark when a charge, so I don't mark on many encounter and daily abilities. I get a piece of a the fighter's defending ability, but don't get the stickiness.

And lastly I skimmed through the first few levels of powers. I like the at-wills for the most part, the encounter powers don't seem that great, and the dailies are just okay. I honestly think my dragonborn fighter seems to be a better barbarian than this class. I get better AC, reaping strike, big attacks all the time, my encounter powers do more damage, etc.


So I'm going to finish reading the rest of the book, and some of the other mechanics look interesting. I hope I find some other sections of the book that I do really like, we shall see.


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 5, 2008)

I agree on Demon Dance. MF has stated above it is supposed to be a daily, just read back a couple of posts. even then it is too powerful IMO. However that aside I really like the MA. the powers are a lot more interesting than many of the rangers and rogues.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 5, 2008)

Okay, guys, I'm going to give you the chance to chime on a change.

I'm willing to admit when I've made a mistake, and the truth is, even as a daily power, _demon dance_ is still a little too good.

So, would you rather see it

A) weakened? or

B) moved to 5th level?

And if A, how would you prefer to see it done? Based on a non-primary stat for martial artists (probably strength)? Or something else?


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 5, 2008)

Sorry you feel that way, Stalker.


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## WhatGravitas (Oct 5, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> And if A, how would you prefer to see it done? Based on a non-primary stat for martial artists (probably strength)? Or something else?



As it stands now, I see two problems with it:

a) It deals too much damage, and by using the [W] expression, it adds enhancement bonuses and other weapon-derived stuff (Weapon Focus), which makes it very damaging.
b) It clears minions in a big, big field, simply by being too close to the MA.

Personally, I see this as a possible "fix", or at least as a route to go:

To fix a), it should just deal damage equal to a stat modifier. This lowers the damage and avoids piling up additional bonuses.
Fixing b) is a bit harder, but I think doing the damage _when an enemy ends it turn_ within 2 squares would do.

That way, minions are only killed if they move close _and stay here_. Furthermore, it ties into the general theme of strikers of being able to avoid attacks by the enemy - usually this is done by being movement.
This version of Demon Dance would effectively set up a disincentive to attack the MA directly, especially for weaker enemies.
The power is still interesting, as in conjunction with slow/immobilisation effects it is still very effect - effects the MA can use (and it also encourages teamwork).

Cheers, LT.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 5, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Sorry you feel that way, Stalker.




Well....give me a chance to read the rest of it. If I find some solid stuff that I like I promise I will toot the horn

As for Demon Dance, I think the minion killing potential of this power is just too great right now, so lowering the damage isn't going to help. Besides, the monk is a striker, so I don't mind the damage as much. So you might consider lowering the radius on it to creatures adjacent to you, like rain of steel, which will help the problem.

You could in fact just make demon dance like rain of steel. ROS is probably one of the most strikerish powers a fighter gets, so giving it to the monk doesn't seem unreasonable.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 5, 2008)

I got my copy today as I was going to my sat game, so I brought it with me...I have to say after all the lead up, and the great work I have seen you do it was a let down...Most of the mistakes I found are noticed here, especialy the Martial Art minnor attack, but they have a bunch of stances that minnor sustain...and the Damage is like hunters quarry when I would expect...since it can miss it would be like sneak att (2d6...3d6...5d6).

However even with all that, and the fact that it is B&W not color, it was still worth the $25. I see you have some GREAT ideas. I see you have some real great work, but I think you may have bitten off alittle more then you can chew. 

all and all 2.5 stars, and 1 thumb up...

keep up the good work, your worst (that i know of) book is still better then alot of 3pp books I have seen over the last 8 years


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## Melfast (Oct 5, 2008)

*Demon Dance Redux*

I suggest Daily 5 and change to damage = Wisdom Modifier (using same ability as Writhing Serpent Strike, which is not going to be as high as Dexterity).

I like the idea of moving it to affect characters who end their turns within 2 squares just to differentiate it from Rain of Steel (and I would not incorporate the requirement to have free Opportunity Attacks included in Rain of Steel).

As Stalker mentioned, this still becomes a minion killer, though because of the Range 2.  Maybe range should be 1 even with the reduced damage?

Another option might be to have it take effect at the start of the Martial Artist's turn.  The MA would have to use a minor action at beginning of her turn to effect up to Dex mod enemies within 2 squares with damage = Wis Mod.  If you are a Hard Style MA, damage = +1; if you are a Soft Style than one of the enemies you damaged is knocked prone.

If you move this to level 5, then you also need to include another encounter power.   Currently, none of the encounter powers give 2(W), unlike both Rogue and Ranger (the other strikers), so I see room for an encounter power that gives 2(W).

Maybe something that is Dex vs. AC, and opponent is unbalanced.

Destabilizing Strike
Martial Artist Attack 1
You strike an ememy's joints or other vulnerable points to knock your target off balance.
Encounter • Chi, Divine
Standard Action     Melee:  Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] and your target has -2 AC and Reflex penalty until beginning of your next turn 

Or something that lets you judo flip the target

Crushing Throw
Martial Artist Attack 1
You use leverage and technique to throw your target crashing to the ground
Encounter • Chi, Divine
Standard Action     Melee:  Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] 
Effect:  Slide target into square adjacent to you, and make target prone 


OVerall I likethe book and look forward to using it in my campaign.


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## J-Dog (Oct 5, 2008)

Hey, I like this book. If all it has wrong are a few spots of errata and one misplaced power, then I think you’re doing great. I can simply house rule out the Uber-power, but I don’t even have to do that because the author is cool and responsive. So I say, thumbs up, man! Good job, and thanks!

J-Dog

Specifically, I liked the fact that the abilities weren’t simple variations on the abilities in the PHB. If I wanted a sticky defender, I’d play a Fighter. The Savage Warrior pays you back for attacking someone else. Heck, he doesn’t even have to mark you to do it. So you don’t necessarily know it’s coming.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 5, 2008)

Just to balance out some of my negative comments, I do like the lingering wound system. Its quick, easy to use, can be tailored to a person's campaign, and gives some more use for endurance I also think the slightly deadly option is a great idea, it makes it so that lingering wounds aren't too commonplace, but doesn't require a lot of complicated tracking. My only fear is that it will encourage players to rest more frequently.

I think we will see a lot more use out of the disease track as time goes on, people in general seem to really like it.


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## Melfast (Oct 5, 2008)

*Spellbinder and Illusion Spells in Dragon 364*

Ari,

The Class Acts article in Dragon 364 had nine new illusion spells for wizards (all from levels 1-10).

Given the specialization of the Spellbinder on illusions, would it make sense to trade some or all of these spells for the ones on the Spellbinder list? 

I noticed some overlap between the Spellbinder level 1 attack Imaginary Terrain and the Utility 2 Phantasmal Terrain, and the at-will Illusory Ambush and the Spellbinder's at-will Phantom Strike.  

I realize that your work on the Spellbinder and Rodney's work on the Class Acts article were going on at the same time, so you would not have been able to take these spells into account.

Since I intend to make both options available to my players, using the new illusion spells with their wizard and playing a Spellbinder, I was just trying to get a sense on how to balance the two.

Perhaps the simplest answer is to just let my players choose if they want to swap out a Spellbinder spell for one from the article.  I don't think I would let Wizards go the other way though and take Spellbinder spells in lieu of theirs.

Thanks -- comments from everyone else are welcome as well.

Melfast


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## CrimsonHawk (Oct 5, 2008)

Melfast said:


> Perhaps the simplest answer is to just let my players choose if they want to swap out a Spellbinder spell for one from the article.  I don't think I would let Wizards go the other way though and take Spellbinder spells in lieu of theirs.
> 
> Thanks -- comments from everyone else are welcome as well.
> 
> Melfast




I planned on correcting the whole Imaginary Terrain problem with this.  Move Imaginary Terrain to 1st-Level Daily where it belongs, and supplement the 1st-Level Encounter and 1st-Level Daily with the ones from the Dragon Magazine article.  So that the Spellbinder power list actually went....

Level 1 Encounter -- Grasping Shadows
Level 1 Encounter -- Orb of Amber Gleam
Level 1 Daily -- Imaginary Terrain
Level 1 Daily -- Phantom Chasm

Well, it works until the official errata comes out, at least.  

EDIT:  I never did get around to thanking Ari for all of the hard work he's put into this book, both before and after publication.  I was so busy jonesing for it before Oct 1 and incorporating it into my home-brew campaigns after Oct 1 that I forgot my manners.  Thank you, Ari.  Thank you.


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## Kirnon_Bhale (Oct 5, 2008)

This is the only non-WotC book I have every bought (actually - on preorder through my FLGS) - I have been through the review and previews - I have read peoples comments here, I think that some are being overly critical as not all of the errors should be placed on Ari's shoulders - editing missed things too. If I can happily accept the plethora of errors that the Core books contain then the few found by those here are as nothing. I am really looking forward to this book - I am curious about how well the classes actually play compared to the core classes. I also look forward to any web enhancements you manage to get out.

Nobody seems to have mentioned it - Klaus big thanks for offering up art for the Web enhancement - it will make it nice and special. Love the cover.


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## Byronic (Oct 5, 2008)

I liked the effort put in the Crafting system and I think I might use Lingering Wounds in my game. However, aren't conjurations a bit strong for Encounter powers? Especially the Hunting Wolf pack, being able to attack up to four people as a minor action?

Also would you allow monsters of at least 10 Int to know that if they knock the Druid away from the conjurations they will vanish?


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 5, 2008)

Hey, guys. I appreciate the thoughts, both positive and negative.

As far as the illusion spells from Dragon, yep, I'd allow them, or at least allow players to trade for them. If Dragon was Open Content, I'd have added at least some of them to the illusionist as soon as the article came out. 

As far as _demon dance_, I've been thinking about it since yesterday. I'd really like to make it a power that's cool and that people want to take, but that isn't overpowered (obviously), and that's not just a copy of the fighter's _rain of steel_. I've come up with something that I think is kind of interesting, and since I promised you folks input, I figured I'd run it by you all.

*Demon Dance*	Martial Artist Attack 1
_You launch into a sequence of abrupt and unpredictable moves, stepping this way and that, turning the area around you into a veritable storm of fists and feet._
Daily • Stance, Divine, Weapon
Minor Action	Personal
Effect: Any time you deal damage to an enemy with a melee attack (other than _quick strike_), you also deal damage equal to your Dexterity modifier to a second target (which cannot be the same creature that triggered this power). The second target must be within 2 squares of you.

Essentially, it's a stance that allows you to Cleave (as the fighter at-will power). It lets you Cleave off _any_ attack, has a broader range, and doesn't require the targets be adjacent--but it's a daily power instead, so it only functions for (at most) one encounter.

I think this is worth taking, and still plays into the monk's whole "do damage to everyone in creation" shtick, without turning the power into an unbeatable minion sweeper. And it lets me keep the power at 1st level.

Thoughts, folks? I'm heavily leaning toward going this route, but if someone points out a serious problem or thematic concern, I'm happy to listen.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Oct 5, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> My 1st impression....



I too haven't had time to digest the whole book, but I thought it was funny that my initial impression is almost the opposite....
 I love the Martial Artist {refered to as 'monk' at least once in the book   }, thought the Nature Priest was perfect, and wasn't impressed with the Troubadour...

But that could be due to working with Chimera on an alt-Bard that more closely mirrors the 3x version as well as our opinion of what a Bard should be able to do 


*Mouseferatu*, yes..  I will be glad to put in my two cents after getting a better grasp on the classes!
 The rewritten Demon Dance {above} looks to my unpracticed eye as a good rewrite...altho very much the *right* move in a mob style encounter. DM's would have to be sure to provide the opportunity for the power to be usefull. I don't know if I like powers that slant encounter design that much, altho throwing a handfull of extra minions really isn't that hard 

Side thought: instead of range 2, perhaps range 'adjacent to either yourself or the target of melee attack'... allowing for a flavor of smashing your enemies into thier allies.


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 5, 2008)

I will add my 'yes' vote to the Demon Dance Mk2. Looks much more balanced as a daily like that. We will be using that IMC this week


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## Melfast (Oct 5, 2008)

*Updated Demon Dance*

Folks,

I like it, but have two questions.

First, it says "Effect: Any time you deal damage to an enemy with a melee attack"

     So, if  I use an ability like Dragon Tail Slap or Serpent Bends Aside that are immediate reactions, does the stance allow me to do the extra damage from Demon Dance?  I'd think yes, and it is not too overpowered since I only get one immediate action per round.

Second, can I maintain the stance while I grabbing someone or have someone grabbed?  Again, I imagine so since the descriptions are just fluff to give you a visual image of how a power might work.  

     So, I grab Goblin A or do damage to Goblin A while maintaining the grab, and do Dex Mod damage to the Goblin Hexer 2 squares away applying the Demon Dance power.

Thanks.

Melfast


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 5, 2008)

Good points, Melfast. While I agree those wouldn't be broken in and of themselves, it opens the door to other abuses, like opportunity attacks or extra attacks granted by warlord powers.

My instinct is to alter the phrasing of the power so it says any time you deal damage with an attack _on your own turn_. But again, that's just my first thought, and I'm willing to field other thoughts.


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Oct 5, 2008)

*Apg*

Too bad about the editing mistakes, but keep in mind that this book has gone through a couple of publishers so there was more room for mixups.  Also, people don't have 10 years of experience with the 4E system yet, so it's harder to notice that something 'isn't right'.

One thing was mentioned that has me curious:  lingering damage rules?  Can someone post a short summary of what this is?

Ken


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## Beholden (Oct 5, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> *Demon Dance*    Martial Artist Attack 1
> _You launch into a sequence of abrupt and unpredictable moves, stepping this way and that, turning the area around you into a veritable storm of fists and feet._
> Daily • Stance, Divine, Weapon
> Minor Action    Personal
> Effect: Any time you deal damage to an enemy with a melee attack (other than _quick strike_), you also deal damage equal to your Dexterity modifier to a second target (which cannot be the same creature that triggered this power). The second target must be within 2 squares of you.




I really like the flavor of Demon Dance Mk2, but the new version might be a little weak for a daily.  Instead, I'd like to see this version kept as an encounter power.  Killing stray minions as the MA damages the bad guys fits right in with the flavor and is not overpowering, even every encounter.

For my argument though, I'm assuming the extra damage from Demon Dance is only suppose to occur once per power and not for every opponent injured.   As written it could be assumed that if I Flurry of Fists and hit three monsters I then get to damage three extra creatures with Demon Dance.  I think this should be clarified.

Completely off topic, is the Troubadour's Cause Fear ability really supposed to be based off Wisdom like the Ceric version?  Seems a little strange to me.  Personally, I think the attack should be Charisma based, but have the extra squares moved based off Wisdom.

Thanks,

- Beholden.


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## Zander (Oct 5, 2008)

Ari,

I'm really looking forward to this book. To my mind, it fills gaps that should never have been left vacant in the PHB in the first place.

Questions:
1. When will the hard copy version be available in the UK? {Gollum voice}_We wants it now, Precious!_{/Gollum voice}

2. Will a compiled errata be available online without having to download the entire PDF version of the book? If so, where? And if you don't mind me asking, when?

Thanks,

Zander


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 5, 2008)

Zander,

I'm afraid I can't easily answer either of those. I'll try to direct Joe Browning to the thread again (if he's not watching already), and hopefully he can provide more info.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 5, 2008)

Beholden said:


> For my argument though, I'm assuming the extra damage from Demon Dance is only suppose to occur once per power and not for every opponent injured.   As written it could be assumed that if I Flurry of Fists and hit three monsters I then get to damage three extra creatures with Demon Dance.  I think this should be clarified.




Good point, and it will, indeed, be clarified. 



> Completely off topic, is the Troubadour's Cause Fear ability really supposed to be based off Wisdom like the Ceric version?  Seems a little strange to me.  Personally, I think the attack should be Charisma based, but have the extra squares moved based off Wisdom.




I'm going to go bang my head against a wall for a while, now. 

No, it shouldn't be Wisdom-based. The attack is Charisma-based, and the extra movement is Intelligence-based.


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## Zander (Oct 5, 2008)

Ari,

Thanks for the super speedy reply and for pointing Joe Browning this way. 

If it makes any difference, I'm pretty sure that it will sell like hotcakes in the UK. I'm the organiser of one of the largest D&D clubs in the country (we have c. 200 members), and that's the consensus so far.

As for a compiled errata available online, all I can say is that it would be greatly appreciated.

Z


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## jgbrowning (Oct 5, 2008)

Zander said:


> Questions:
> 1. When will the hard copy version be available in the UK? {Gollum voice}_We wants it now, Precious!_{/Gollum voice}




The book is making its way through the distribution chain right now. Books should start hitting FLGS next week.



> 2. Will a compiled errata be available online without having to download the entire PDF version of the book? If so, where? And if you don't mind me asking, when?




Once Ari's comfortable that he's corrected the most important issues, we'll put up a free PDF for anyone to download. I suspect that it shouldn't take more than a week, and more than likely, it will be within a few days.



> If it makes any difference, I'm pretty sure that it will sell like hotcakes in the UK. I'm the organiser of one of the largest D&D clubs in the country (we have c. 200 members), and that's the consensus so far.




That's definitely good news to my ears. I think Ari did a bang-up job for the the book and people will have a lot of fun using it.

joe b.


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 5, 2008)

Another bit of errata I have noticed is that several of the Paragon Paths have a feature given at 17th rather than 16th level: Stormwalker, Master of Flowers, Master of Four winds, Mystic Healer & Acrobat.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> Another bit of errata I have noticed is that several of the Paragon Paths have a feature given at 17th rather than 16th level: Stormwalker, Master of Flowers, Master of Four winds, Mystic Healer & Acrobat.




Yeah, we caught that one a few days ago, and it's in the errata. Thank you, though.


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 6, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> ... and it's in the errata. Thank you, though.



No probs. Umm what do you mean 'it is in the errata'? Is there errata published already? Or it is on your own list?

Or is it back somewhere in this thread and I have missed it


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> No probs. Umm what do you mean 'it is in the errata'? Is there errata published already? Or it is on your own list?




I have my own list, and I'm sending regular updates to Joe Browning, so that we can get it up quickly once we're sure we've covered the big stuff.


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## Nikosandros (Oct 6, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Once Ari's comfortable that he's corrected the most important issues, we'll put up a free PDF for anyone to download. I suspect that it shouldn't take more than a week, and more than likely, it will be within a few days.



Will the PDF of the book be updated at some time?


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## Ghaerdon Fain (Oct 6, 2008)

Nope, it's B&W.[/quote]

Oh well .. still, I'm happy with the product and will continue to support your efforts... you might have even helped me in supporting other non-WotC 4E products, so thanks.


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## Ghaerdon Fain (Oct 6, 2008)

Nikosandros said:


> Will the PDF of the book be updated at some time?




This is a great question ... my hope is that a new PDF will be able to be downloaded by us early adopters   As opposed to an errata sheet.


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## MerricB (Oct 6, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Good points, Melfast. While I agree those wouldn't be broken in and of themselves, it opens the door to other abuses, like opportunity attacks or extra attacks granted by warlord powers.
> 
> My instinct is to alter the phrasing of the power so it says any time you deal damage with an attack _on your own turn_. But again, that's just my first thought, and I'm willing to field other thoughts.




"_The first time each round..._"

Doing extra on every attack? Could be troublesome, especially once multiclassing is taken into account. (Ranger/Monk... hmm)

Cheers!


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## Stalker0 (Oct 6, 2008)

Ari, I think for Demon Dance MK2, go with once per round and then allow quick strike to apply. Then its a strong daily, but not in the overpowered range in my opinion.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2008)

Okay, based on people's comments and my own thoughts, we're currently looking at this:



> *Effect:* Once per round, when you deal damage to an enemy with a melee attack, you also deal damage equal to your Wisdom modifier to a second target (which cannot be the same creature that triggered this power). The second target must be within 2 squares of you.




We've got the one/round limit, now, but we're also not limiting it to the character's turn (since it's just once/round, it can be on an OA or an immediate action).

I think it's still worth a daily, since you can maintain it for an entire encounter and it basically adds the _cleave_ power to every attack you make (and it's only 1st level). But by all means, please continue to comment, if you'd like.


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 6, 2008)

Sitara said:


> Well theofficialBarbarian class is coming out in 3 days on Dragon. It will be interesting tosee how Ari Marmells version compares tothat one.




out and it's a striker.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> out and it's a striker.




A fact for which I'm actually grateful. It keeps the classes that much more distinct, which is what I was shooting for. 

I _am_ amused at how much we thought alike in _some_ respects, though. Both classes have a lot of charge-related powers, powers that you can use instead of basic attacks after making such a charge, and major aspects of the class based around the notion of temporary hit points.


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## Connorsrpg (Oct 6, 2008)

Wow, Ari you must be so excited to have this out. The first full 3rd party 4e book. A huge amount of info in there by the sounds of it.

I definitley will be buying this when it hits Oz in hard format.

Congrats ad a bigger congrats getting on here immediately and ironing out the issues. Issues I am sure in no way will stop people buying the book. Kudos.

C


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2008)

Connorsrpg said:


> Wow, Ari you must be so excited to have this out.




More than a little. 



> Issues I am sure in no way will stop people buying the book. Kudos.




From your mouth to God'sthe marketplace's ear...


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## FabioMilitoPagliara (Oct 6, 2008)

well it will take a little to get it (in Italy) so maybe I will get also the errata for when I get my hands on it)

sounds interesting every bit of it


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## PeelSeel2 (Oct 6, 2008)

I am looking at buying this PDF after it has the errata (Mouseferatu or jgbrowning could you post here when it is available?).  In the meantime, I was wondering about a comparison between the WOTC play test barbarian and this one?

I am really curious.  Thanks!


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## Halivar (Oct 6, 2008)

I still don't have mine. 

How did you ship it?


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## catsclaw227 (Oct 6, 2008)

PeelSeel2 said:


> I am looking at buying this PDF after it has the errata (Mouseferatu or jgbrowning could you post here when it is available?).



For now, this is what I am doing as well.  I don't have the kind of disposable income I had with 3.x, what with those pesky wife and kids (and mother-in-law) running around the (new) house. 

Oh, the halcyon days of buying everything I wanted..................


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## CrimsonHawk (Oct 6, 2008)

APG Savage Warrior vs WotC Barbarian?  Well, the first is a Martial Defender while the second is a Primal Striker.  That's the most telling difference.  Rage is also handled differently in the WotC version (it's basically activated when you use a Daily power and grants different benefits).

On a slightly less important note, we now know that Primal powers are called evocations and that the PHB2 will feature goliaths.


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## tsadkiel (Oct 6, 2008)

CrimsonHawk said:


> APG Savage Warrior vs WotC Barbarian?  Well, the first is a Martial Defender while the second is a Primal Striker.  That's the most telling difference.  Rage is also handled differently in the WotC version (it's basically activated when you use a Daily power and grants different benefits).




The Barbarian also becomes overtly supernatural at higher levels, with rages giving them elemental auras and turning them insubstantial and the like.  And the Barbabrian looks more complicated to me than the Savage Warrior does.  But the two classes can easily coexist.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 6, 2008)

Nikosandros said:


> Will the PDF of the book be updated at some time?






Ghaerdon Fain said:


> This is a great question ... my hope is that a new PDF will be able to be downloaded by us early adopters   As opposed to an errata sheet.




There will be no updated PDFs, only an errata sheet.

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 6, 2008)

Halivar said:


> I still don't have mine.
> 
> How did you ship it?




Media, which can take up to 10 business days to arrive. My e-mail is josephbrowning@gmail.com.

joe b.


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## Nikosandros (Oct 6, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> There will be no updated PDFs, only an errata sheet.



That's really too bad. Given the amount of errors that have already been found in this product, an update might have made a purchase more enticing for me, but thanks anyway for answering my question.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 6, 2008)

Nikosandros said:


> That's really too bad. Given the amount of errors that have already been found in this product, an update might have made a purchase more enticing for me, but thanks anyway for answering my question.




I understand everyone has different purchasing inputs and that not everyone will be satisfied with our solution which I believe to be fairly industry standard.

joe b.


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## Filcher (Oct 6, 2008)

Is there really that much errata? Is there a compiled list somewhere?


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## Spatula (Oct 6, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Most of the mistakes I found are noticed here, especialy the Martial Art minnor attack, but they have a bunch of stances that minnor sustain...and the Damage is like hunters quarry when I would expect...since it can miss it would be like sneak att (2d6...3d6...5d6).



I don't see how quick-strike is a mistake.  It's a different way of looking at the bonus striker damage, which is an all or nothing affair with the ranger, rogue, & warlock.  The martial artist instead makes it as a seperate attack roll, which increases the chance of dealing _some_ damage to the target.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 6, 2008)

Filcher said:


> Is there really that much errata? Is there a compiled list somewhere?




Currently we have less than 2 pages, with roughly one page being composed of moving paragon path abilities from 17th to 16th level and certain powers listed as immediate reactions turning into free actions. The errata sheet will probably be available by this weekend.

joe b.


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## Nikosandros (Oct 6, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> I understand everyone has different purchasing inputs and that not everyone will be satisfied with our solution which I believe to be fairly industry standard.



I certainly don't begrudge your choice. I might be spoiled here by SJ Games fantastic behavior with their PDF.

Also, let me tell you that I have ordered in the past from your online store and the customer service and the quality of the items were truly top notch...


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## Beholden (Oct 6, 2008)

Just to add to my list of questions/possible errata:

1) Is Soothe the Savage Beast really supposed to be Int based?  I assume this is a copy and paster error from Sleep.  The description really makes it seem to be Charisma based (not to mention it would be the only Int power in the Troubadour list).

2) Deal With Him! does not specify when/how the mark expires.  I would assume end of your next round, but it should be specified.

I might have more later, but those are two I just ran into looking at the first few level of Troubadour.

I've focused on the Troubadour because it's my favorite class from the book.  I've _never_ liked bards before, but this version is very cool and has me interested in character concepts I've never considered before.  I also really like the option to use a Battle Standard as an implement vs musical instruments only.

Thanks again Ari for a great book!


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2008)

Beholden said:


> 1) Is Soothe the Savage Beast really supposed to be Int based?  I assume this is a copy and paster error from Sleep.  The description really makes it seem to be Charisma based (not to mention it would be the only Int power in the Troubadour list).




I can see how you might think that, but no, in this case, not a mistake. I feel that _soothe the savage beast_ is a hair better than _sleep_. It's true that it's worse on a miss, and that damage awakens the target (something not true of the _sleep_ spell). _But_, the effect takes place _instantly_, rather than progressing through a failed save or two. I decided that part of balancing that would be basing it on one of the troubadour's other ability scores. Int is one of their primaries, but not their _most_ important, so it seemed the way to go.

I might have been wrong about how potent it is and how it needed balancing--as I said above, I'll cop to mistakes when I make them--but it was a deliberate decision.



> 2) Deal With Him! does not specify when/how the mark expires.  I would assume end of your next round, but it should be specified.




This, however, is indeed an error. I intend to make it work like the paladin's divine challenge; to maintain the mark, the "marking ally" must either attack the foe, or end the round adjacent to the foe.



> I've focused on the Troubadour because it's my favorite class from the book.  I've _never_ liked bards before, but this version is very cool and has me interested in character concepts I've never considered before.  I also really like the option to use a Battle Standard as an implement vs musical instruments only.
> 
> Thanks again Ari for a great book!




And thank you for your thoughts.  I was really happy with how the troubadour came out, myself; I hope to hear how people enjoy using it.


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## PeelSeel2 (Oct 7, 2008)

I went ahead and bought despite the errata.  I can download the fixed PDF later.  Then I can compare your barbarian to the Unofficial WOTC barbarian.

This is the first edition of D&D since basic and AD&D that I have felt that I want to buy supplements for.  Exciting.


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 7, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Currently we have less than 2 pages, with roughly one page being composed of moving paragon path abilities from 17th to 16th level and certain powers listed as immediate reactions turning into free actions. The errata sheet will probably be available by this weekend.
> 
> joe b.



Sweet, that'll be good. Not much major errata for the first 3PP book, IMO. From what I've seen just a few niggles which common sense sorts and a couple of slightly larger changes. Nothing as earth crushingly rubbish as, oh I dunno, maybe getting the DCs for checks all out by around 10!


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 7, 2008)

Spatula said:


> I don't see how quick-strike is a mistake.  It's a different way of looking at the bonus striker damage, which is an all or nothing affair with the ranger, rogue, & warlock.  The martial artist instead makes it as a seperate attack roll, which increases the chance of dealing _some_ damage to the target.




I just feel that it is a little weak...fince it requres a seprate att roll, maybe it should be a bit more damage... like 2d6...3d6...5d6 for rogue.

   maybe if it followed the unarmed strike damage...1d6  2d8  3d10  with the feat upping it to 1d8   2d10   3d12???


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 7, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I just feel that it is a little weak...fince it requres a seprate att roll, maybe it should be a bit more damage... like 2d6...3d6...5d6 for rogue.




It does indeed require a separate roll, and that's a downside.

On the other hand...

You can attack a separate foe from the main attack, which makes it a great minion killer, or lets you attack someone else if your main attack drops a foe. You can use it as a minor action even if you don't take a main attack (for whatever reason), allowing you (for instance) to double move and still make a small attack. You can use it to try to deal a little damage even if your main attack misses. The rogue/ranger/warlock extra damage cannot do any of these.

So yes, it's got the downside of requiring two rolls, but it's a _lot _more versatile. I think that's a pretty fair trade.


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## Spatula (Oct 7, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I just feel that it is a little weak...fince it requres a seprate att roll, maybe it should be a bit more damage...



But requiring a seperate attack roll doesn't make it weaker.  Imagine you have an attack that does 4d6 damage with a single attack roll, but if you want you can split it up into two attacks that do 2d6 each, instead.  Which way does more damage?

Now, requiring a minor action each round may make it a little weaker, but I don't think that's a huge deal.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 7, 2008)

ok...I can see where you guys are comeing from, but it still feels weak...I will wait untill I get to playtest it, but my feeling is still there...


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 7, 2008)

I think the flexibility of it awesome, many times in a game the extra damage from our Ranger has been wasted. IMO once I read that I just wanted to play a monk, specifically an elven monk....but (bugger it) I DM


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## Ghaerdon Fain (Oct 7, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> There will be no updated PDFs, only an errata sheet.
> 
> joe b.




I cried myself to sleep :-(


LOL


oh well ... still a great 3rd party effort!


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## thundershot (Oct 7, 2008)

I was really hoping you'd update the PDF and then, with a stroke of kindness, give free PDFs to those who bought the dead tree version. Now I'm gonna have to have the book with pages of errata and.... I have enough papers all over the place.. Ah well....



Chris


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## BlU_sKrEEm (Oct 7, 2008)

I just have to say that this product has been a big hit with my group. The craft rules are being used by two PCs, and players already called dibs on the Specialist Mage and Martial Artists MC Paragon in our main game.

Rather than our normal game this week we decided to run the Kobold Hall using the APG classes, just to test things out. So far we have a Gnomish Nature Priest, Orc-Blooded martial Artists, Shireling Savage Warrior, an Eladrin Spellbinder, and one undecided (hopefully a Troubadour.) I'll try and report on how it goes sometime Wednesday.

PS:First Post!


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 7, 2008)

BlU_sKrEEm said:


> Rather than our normal game this week we decided to run the Kobold Hall using the APG classes, just to test things out. So far we have a Gnomish Nature Priest, Orc-Blooded martial Artists, Shireling Savage Warrior, an Eladrin Spellbinder, and one undecided (hopefully a Troubadour.) I'll try and report on how it goes sometime Wednesday.




Please do. I'd love to hear about it. 

And welcome to ENWorld.


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## Jack99 (Oct 7, 2008)

I just wanted to chime in, since I got mine already (not bad considering the distance), along with Plague and the adventure. I didn't read it all  yet, since tuesday is when I run my campaign, but it looks (from a quick scan) just as awesome as I expected.

Cheers


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## garyh (Oct 7, 2008)

I got my copy in the mail yesterday and gave it a quick skim.  I love LOVE *LOVE *the orc-blooded.  It's elegant, simple, and fills a niche left out of PHB 1.  I need to find a game I can play it in.    The martial artist, savage warrior, and druid all look fun as well.

Anyone reading this thread feel like running a APG-allowed game here on the Play by Post forums?


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## Halivar (Oct 8, 2008)

I FINALLY GOT MINE!

Initial thoughts on skimming:

1) Great presentation and arrangement. Man, I wish the power titles were color-coded.

2) Am I the only one that sees immense out-of-combat potential for the Troubadour and Spellbinder 1st-level daily power _Imaginary Terrain_?

3) Eldritch Trickster! This is a delight to see. I was a huge fan of the splat-book version of the Arcane Trickster, and this is a worthy adaptation.

4) Spymaster daily utility _Invisibility Globe_ is the answer to one of my wizard-player's biggest gripes: no more _Mass Invisibility_.

5) We never used crafting rules in 3.5E, and we probably won't use them in 4E. Nevertheless, it's nice to know that if somebody randomly requests it, I've got a good framework here.

6) It is my belief that the inclusion of ninjas, no matter how out of place they may be, improves any book.

7) Really? Is that all the Wildshaper gets? I think there's a missed opportunity here; Mouse's approach to wild-shaping is fantastic, IMO, and I wish this were a 30-level class with a wider range of shifting options. I am _very_ happy that there is no Monster Manual look-up's here. In other words, this paragon class is so cool, I wish there was more of it.

8) Best bard ever. I can't believe it, but I want to play one. As someone who has always loved the _concept_ of the bard, but always hated the _execution_, this is a huge boon.

9) I know that the Spellbinder != Illusionist (well, not exactly), but I do wish there was more illusory goodness. There are an awful lot of direct attack spells, when I think this would have been a good opportunity to try crafting a class whose attacks are always status affects of some sort. It will be harder to fluff this as an Illutionist, IMHO. I *AM* happy that illusions aren't the automatic "you are now out of the fight" spells they were in 3.x. Well done.

10) This is gonna sound weird, but from a min-max perspective, I see shire halfling paladins and warlocks in my future.

EDIT:

11) Martial Artists can use weapons with most of their skills? I can have _Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon_ swordfights? Sweet.


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## JustKim (Oct 8, 2008)

I got mine today and it looks great. I haven't had time to read everything but the monk, druid, bard, crafting rules and lingering wounds inspire me and I'd like to try them. Unfortunately, I do not have any errors to report. 

Also, I really like Joan Guardiet's artwork in the book.


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## Sphynx (Oct 8, 2008)

Before I go sounding like a critic, let me start by saying that I love the book.  Seriously, it's WAY better than what WotC has been producing lately.  Maybe not from an Art point of view, but nicely balanced and sensible (I'll avoid my regular tirade of how stupid Swordmages are, and pretty much everything else in the FR Player's Guide).

The book is awesome.  I not only approve its use in the game I run, but encourage it (while having banned the FR stuff and Dragon stuff entirely to-date).

Here are the issues I see so far (and I'll try not to repeat things already said, but 5 pages of posts, I'm sure to make that mistake at least once without having an errata next to me).

Monk.   Errr.... Martial Artist.


Untouchable is not only very touchable, but practically pointless, since a simple leather armour feat will do better than that altogether.  I want to completely encourage unarmoured monks.  So, my House rule is to double the bonus (2, 4, 6) and give a bonus to reflexes (1, 2, 3), unless you don a piece of armour or would not normally receive a Dex bonus to your Armour.  Class loses the auto +1 Reflex, receiving only Will and Fort bonuses.  This still isn't as effective as Leather with Enhancements, and I fear that even with this House Rule, everyone is going to want Leather (not only for the enhancement, but because alot of nice properties, such as Sylvan Leather)
I know you've addressed this one in a round-about way, but with no enhancement bonus for unarmed, the House Rule I've implemented is  a Chi Battery equal to half your level + your Wisdom Modifier.  You can split those points up per-encounter as a Free Action to give 'enhancements' to all unarmed attacks for that particular Turn (not round).  You can not have an enhancement greater than your Wisdom Modifier from this, at any time.  Ie: 11th level with a Wisdom of 16 has 5+3 points (8).  On his first turn he can spend up to 3 (Wisdom Modifier) of his Chi Battery on an Unarmed Enhancement.  This applies to all attacks (even Quick Strike) on that Turn.
Now that Magical Armour and Weapons have been handled without having to actually wear/wield either, I adjust Powers.  The first Power I adjust is Writhing Serpent Strike.  Pet-Peeve of mine, and a cause for me having changed many of the Paladin Powers in my game (and banning of the SwordMage).  Mental Attributes aren't to be used for Melee Weapon Powers unless highly thematic, such as the Nature Priest's Flaming Blade (which, btw, has a description of a Spear, not a Blade ).  Writing Serpent Strike: Dex to Attack Roll instead of Wisdom.  Wisdom still used for damage.
Same applies to Powers such Choker Grabs His Prey, Crippling Blow, Debilitating Strike, Agonizing Strike, Hammer Blow, Kraken Grasps Prey, Stunning Palm, and Quivering Fist.
Demon Dance - Yes, you've addressed it nicely, but taken it out of its position to do so.  Minions are the reason that Demon Dance is so... overkill.  Minions can not be harmed if Missed.  Minions are not what this Power was intended for.  I've changed the text to the following:

Close Burst 2
Attack: Wisdom vs Fortitude (Auto Damage is Bad)
Hit: 1[W] Damage.  Treat this hit as a Missed Attack.
Leg Sweep: Added 1[W] Damage and the following text added to the end of the 1 sentence.  unless the Target makes a Saving Throw.
That's all for the Monk. 

Druid.... err.... Nature Priest



Flaming Blade -> Flaming Spear now.

That's all.  I love the Druid as is, but haven't had time to fully analyze the higher level conjurations yet.

Barbarian Berserker



Replaced Boundless Endurance (level 2 Utility) with a Power to Regenerate 2
Replaced Iron Warriors (level 16 utility) with a Power to Regenerate 5
Sorry, in my mind, Regenerate was just something all Barbarians had in my early games, and I'm not a huge fan of classes sharing the same Powers anyhows.    Other than that, a very very nicely done class (I prefer it to the one I see on the WotC site/Dragon article).

Troubadour: Banned from my games.  Too many melee attacks based on Charisma to hit.  While I'm ok with the concept of someone being so distracting that people reveal their weaknesses, the chance to hit those weaknesses is still your Dexterity or Strength.  Slipping past defenses (via Charisma) would be a negative to that defense (equal to the Charisma Modifier?).  This would be over-kill since stacking 2 attributes together for Attacks would be the most powerful thing any class has, but it has to take the physical ability to hit into account.  Best solution would probably have been damage-less effects based on Charisma (dazed would be very common usage of Charisma), allowing the other party members to benefit from that distraction.  As-is, the Troubadour is, for me, thematically unsound.  Fortunately, nobody I know actually likes (or ever liked) playing a Bard anyhows (cept maybe in the game Bard's Tale, the originals, not the later version ).  

Regardless, much thanks for the book.  I look forward to my hard-copy arriving in the mail soon.  Money well spent on a book well done.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 8, 2008)

Sphynx said:


> Before I go sounding like a critic, let me start by saying that I love the book.




Appreciate that.  And no worries.



> [*]Untouchable is not only very touchable, but practically pointless, since a simple leather armour feat will do better than that altogether.  I want to completely encourage unarmoured monks.




Actually, the leather armor feat isn't as much a no-brainer as you might think. Remember that martial artists _can_ wear cloth armor, and that cloth armor can be enchanted, and has its own masterwork options as well. Assuming standard equipment values, the AC difference between a MA using Untouchable and a MA who spent the feat for leather armor) is only +1 in favor of the leather for most of the Heroic tier, a tie for most of the Paragon tier, and actually +1 in favor of the MA w/Untouchable in the Epic tier. And that's not even counting the possibility of a high Wisdom bonus. 



> [*]I know you've addressed this one in a round-about way, but with no enhancement bonus for unarmed, the House Rule I've implemented is  a Chi Battery equal to half your level + your Wisdom Modifier...




Hmm. A little more complex on the record-keeping than I like, but if it works for you, fantastic. 



> Pet-Peeve of mine, and a cause for me having changed many of the Paladin Powers in my game (and banning of the SwordMage).  Mental Attributes aren't to be used for Melee Weapon Powers unless highly thematic, such as the Nature Priest's Flaming Blade (which, btw, has a description of a Spear, not a Blade ).




Heh. No wonder you dislike so much of the monk, and most of the troubadour.  Me, since the monk's powers are technically prayers and the troubadour's are technically spells--even if they happen to also involve attacks--I've got no objection to using Wisdom or Charisma.

(Uh, obviously, or I wouldn't have written 'em that way. )

But again, if you've found a solution that works for you, that's great. I'm glad you were able to get as much use out of the book as you have.


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## Sphynx (Oct 8, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Actually, the leather armor feat isn't as much a no-brainer as you might think. Remember that martial artists _can_ wear cloth armor, and that cloth armor can be enchanted, and has its own masterwork options as well. Assuming standard equipment values, the AC difference between a MA using Untouchable and a MA who spent the feat for leather armor) is only +1 in favor of the leather for most of the Heroic tier, a tie for most of the Paragon tier, and actually +1 in favor of the MA w/Untouchable in the Epic tier. And that's not even counting the possibility of a high Wisdom bonus.



I admit, I'd forgotten that cloth was an Armour Type.  Well stated.


> Heh. No wonder you dislike so much of the monk, and most of the troubadour.



I don't dislike the Monk at all (minus the Wisdom based melee attacks), I think it's better written than I would have done.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 8, 2008)

Ari...I am just wondering did you try to base troubadour off elan form OotS? cause it looks like I can do a pretty good 'Dashing Swordsman' with the class.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 8, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Ari...I am just wondering did you try to base troubadour off elan form OotS? cause it looks like I can do a pretty good 'Dashing Swordsman' with the class.




I sense a Paragon path coming on! I'd love to see someone stat that up.


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## Sphynx (Oct 8, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Sphynx said:
> 
> 
> > I know you've addressed this one in a round-about way, but with no enhancement bonus for unarmed, the House Rule I've implemented is  a Chi Battery equal to half your level + your Wisdom Modifier.  You can split those points up per-encounter as a Free Action to give 'enhancements' to all unarmed attacks for that particular Turn (not round).  You can not have an enhancement greater than your Wisdom Modifier from this, at any time.  Ie: 11th level with a Wisdom of 16 has 5+3 points (8).  On his first turn he can spend up to 3 (Wisdom Modifier) of his Chi Battery on an Unarmed Enhancement.  This applies to all attacks (even Quick Strike) on that Turn.
> ...




LuckLender (pg 71 Adventurer's Vault)
Feystep Lacings (pg 129 Adventurer's Vault)
Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (pg 134 Adventurer's Vault)
Healer's Sash (page 166 Adventurer's Vault)

Just pointing out that it's not too complex an idea.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 8, 2008)

Sphynx said:


> I admit, I'd forgotten that cloth was an Armour Type.  Well stated.




If it makes you feel any better, I almost forgot that as well when I was designing the class. Had I done so, they _would_ have had a higher AC bonus, and would have wound up being very, very broken.

Nice to know I occasionally find my mistakes _before_ the book is published. 



GMforPowergamers said:


> Ari...I am just wondering did you try to base troubadour off elan form OotS? cause it looks like I can do a pretty good 'Dashing Swordsman' with the class.




Not Elan specifically; I just envisioned bards the way I've usually seen them played, and tried to design a class that would make that concept work.



Sphynx said:


> LuckLender (pg 71 Adventurer's Vault)
> Feystep Lacings (pg 129 Adventurer's Vault)
> Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (pg 134 Adventurer's Vault)
> Healer's Sash (page 166 Adventurer's Vault)
> ...




Oh, I didn't say it was too complex to exist; just more complex than I personally prefer.


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## Jack99 (Oct 8, 2008)

Okay, I finally got to read the book. Ari, you did a great job. You can and should rightfully be proud of it. Sure, there are a few hick-ups in some of the powers (most of which have been mentioned here), but nothing that a little playtesting or math can't fix. 

Unless I missed a lot on that read-through, the book will definitely be put on the allowed list for my campaigns, creating a lot more options for the players, as I kill their characters. 

Thanks for writing this.


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## Quantarum (Oct 9, 2008)

Very pleased with the book and the classes have my players excited. After we finish KotS and shift back to my refurbished homebrew I have a feeling I'll have a martial artist and a troubadour in the new group.
  Bravo Ari!
-Q.


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## Jeremy757 (Oct 9, 2008)

tsadkiel said:


> Any way for a Martial Artist to gain an enhancement bonus on their Chi powers?  I don't see any reference to any sort of implement.  Troubadors have a similar problem, since they don't have any published implements, but other magic items can be reskinned.




I was thinking about this and the Dragon article on Warforged made me think it wouldn't be to hard to come up with a enchant magic tattoo ritual that works like enchant magic item for Chi martial artists.  It would allow you to basically embed a magical weapon effect in your body that you can use with your unarmed attacks.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 9, 2008)

Jeremy757 said:


> I was thinking about this and the Dragon article on Warforged made me think it wouldn't be to hard to come up with a enchant magic tattoo ritual that works like enchant magic item for Chi martial artists.  It would allow you to basically embed a magical weapon effect in your body that you can use with your unarmed attacks.




That is a great idea...I have been trying to find an excuse to make magic tatoos


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 9, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Unless I missed a lot on that read-through, the book will definitely be put on the allowed list for my campaigns, creating a lot more options for the players, as I kill their characters.






Quantarum said:


> Very pleased with the book and the classes have my players excited. After we finish KotS and shift back to my refurbished homebrew I have a feeling I'll have a martial artist and a troubadour in the new group.




Thanks, guys. 

Once you've had the chance to actually see these classes in play for a few games straight, I'd love to hear about your experiences.


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## catsclaw227 (Oct 9, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Currently we have less than 2 pages, with roughly one page being composed of moving paragon path abilities from 17th to 16th level and certain powers listed as immediate reactions turning into free actions. The errata sheet will probably be available by this weekend.



If there's one thing that an update sheet won't really be able to help with is the color coding of the powers.  Is it possible to have the PDF be properly color coded to make skimming powers easier?


----------



## catsclaw227 (Oct 9, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> I understand everyone has different purchasing inputs and that not everyone will be satisfied with our solution which I believe to be fairly industry standard.



While I respect your decision, Joe...  Really, is that all you want to strive for?  Just meeting a perceived "fairly industry standard"?  I would think that a small press outfit would want to try to do more, to set themselves ahead of the pack.

I've gotten quite a few notifications from RPGNow about PDFs that have been errata'd, so it can't be that uncommon.  I got it from Malhavoc, as well as a number of other publishers.


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## Jack99 (Oct 9, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Thanks, guys.
> 
> Once you've had the chance to actually see these classes in play for a few games straight, I'd love to hear about your experiences.




I have the next week off, so while I doubt I will see any of the classes in action (none of my players are planning to die - on the other hand, I guess that could be arranged... ) I do plan on getting a firm grip on the classes and ask a few questions/give some feedback.

Cheers


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## jgbrowning (Oct 9, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> If there's one thing that an update sheet won't really be able to help with is the color coding of the powers.  Is it possible to have the PDF be properly color coded to make skimming powers easier?




_Advanced Player's Guide _is a B&W book, both in print and PDF.

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 9, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> While I respect your decision, Joe...  Really, is that all you want to strive for?  Just meeting a perceived "fairly industry standard"?




When it comes to PDF errata, yes.

The errata sheet will be added to the back of the PDF so new customers will have the errata at purchase and pre-existing customers can redownload the product. Also, it will be available separately as a free download for customers who have not purchased the PDF version of the _Advanced Player's Guide_.

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 10, 2008)

DM Magic said:


> Any  idea on when the errata will be available?




This weekend still looks good. I will be surprised if it's not available by Monday.

joe b.


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## Daelkyr (Oct 10, 2008)

I must say that I am liking what I see with the APG Ari. I bought it the first day. I usually shy away from third party publications, but everything I saw about this book made me want to purchase it. While I am also saddened about the fact that there will be no update to the pdf when the errata is made available (I know that Piazo and Green Ronin do this), I plan on using Adobe Acrobat to make those changes to the pdf myself.

I especially like your Troubadour and Nature Priest. When I get my player's to give it a try, I'll let you know how they play. Great buy and worth the money.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Oct 10, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> When it comes to PDF errata, yes.
> 
> The errata sheet will be added to the back of the PDF so new customers will have the errata at purchase and pre-existing customers can redownload the product. Also, it will be available separately as a free download for customers who have not purchased the PDF version of the _Advanced Player's Guide_.



Fair enough. There are acutally two points that bum me out here, though.

1. I guess I was hoping that more companies would realize that they SHOULD go color with PDF, as well as make a print friendly B&W version that is the one that ultimately is used for print.

In this PDF, is there some other way that the daily, encounter, at-will powers are differentiated?  Like an icon or a big D, E, or W on the power block?

2. PDFs don't require a reprint. So, by nature, the medium is designed to be easily updated.  I am not sure what publishing software is used primarily in the RPG industry, but I am an amateur, and I have updated 10-12 different Quark and InDesign publications (for a 64+ page print publication that was going to put their issues online) over two days with mega ads all over the place.  And this was over 6-7 years ago when the software wasn't as forgiving.  Yes, page breaks, some breakout boxes and such need to be positioned and recalculated, but in reality it's pretty easy.  The main reason it wasn't done prior to that was the printing and distribution costs of getting the updated issues out.

Is it about time and money?  Return on investment of the time spent updating?


I would consider myself one of your loyal customers.  Looking at my personal PDF library, I have purchased 14 different XRP PDFs, and three of the ones below in print as well:


Monster Geographica: Forest
Monster Geographica: Plain and Desert
Monster Geographica: Marsh and Aquatic
Monster Geographica: Hill and Mountain
Monster Geographica: Underground
Silk Road
Beast Builder
City Guide
Ecology and Culture
Western Europe 2nd ed.
Liber Artefactorum
Nevermore for True20 and two different Nevermore supplements. 

The Advanced Adventures and the 1-on-1s just didn't fit my gaming, and I missed out on the NPC files after you switched to YourGamesNow.

I guess that for late 2008 this kind of attitude about PDFs is disappointing...


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## BlU_sKrEEm (Oct 10, 2008)

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Here is my review of my One Shot Through the Kobold Caves using APG classes:

The Party: 
 [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]*Mr Fu* - [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Orc-Blooded Martial Artists (hard style)[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Powers:
Leaping Strike[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]granite Palm[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Charging Gorgon Kick[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Catch the Striking Scorpion[/FONT]

 [FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]*Humbug*: [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Earth Gnome Conjuration Nature Priest[/FONT]
Powers:
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Lightening Fists[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Swarming Summons[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Diving Raptor (flavored as a Giant Cockroach)[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Blinding Bats (Flavored as a Gnat Swarm)[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]*Napoleon* - [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Shire Halfling Savage Warrior[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Powers:
Distracting Blow (I assume this only applies to _your_ attack right?)[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Warding Strike[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Kick them When their Down[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Hounding strike[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]*Bowie* - [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Eladrin Spell Binder[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Powers:
Eye Bite[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Phantom Strike[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Grasping Shadows (From Dragon 364)[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Imaginary Terrain[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif] *Piper - *[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Minotaur Skillful Troubadour[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Powers:
Nicks and Scratches[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Phantom Strike[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Get them off of Me![/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Sooth the Savage Beast[/FONT]*

The Adventure:* 
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Minotaur player was worried that the Troubadour would not provide enough healing for a five member party, so the only way I could get him to play one was to provide a healing potion for each player at the start of the adventure. This probably made the adventure a little easier then I had thought.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]This party had already conquered the cavern before with their normal characters, and with the added boost of the healing potions the party felt invincible, which was probably not a good thing. The first few encounters was full of foolishness; Mr Fu (Martial Artist) would start each encounter by running into battle Quick Striking and then running back to hide behind the Bowie (spellbinder), Napoleon (Savage warrior) would spend each round charging from one enemy to the next, ect ect. However as time went on the party got over the newness of their PCs, and started playing smart.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]I have to share the end to one of the most epic combats I have ever seen in 4th to date: On the Big Boss battle the dice suddenly turn against the players. The Wyrm Priest and Drake go down relatively quickly, but for some reason the Dragon Shield refuse to quit. Eventually they bring one down, but the last one proves unnervingly lucky: so far it has three critical hits to it's total, but his support is down two rounds ago.[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Dragon Shield Attacks Humbug, manging to get its fourth critical in one combat. Humbug does not look good and I curse not using a DM screen.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Mr Fu charges into combat and knocks the Dradionshield on his back with a Charging Gorgon Kick before shifting out of the boulder's path with an action point (donated by Piper two rounds earlier.) This is followed up by a savage stomping by Napoleon (Kick em When They're Down! Crit!) [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Napoleon makes his limping escape with a cloud of biting gnats (blinding bats; no opportunity attack for you Sr Kobold!) [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Boulder rounds the corner before either the Dragon Shield or Napoleon can react, and both are hit. When the dust settles Napoleon is critically injured, but standing (3 hp left), the Dragon shield is not as lucky.[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]*Here is my final analysis;* The Team worked well together, although it did have some problems with minions.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Martial Artists was perhaps the most chaotic character I have ever seen. It was impossible to pin him down. The combo of charging, pushing atacks, and shifting was pretty impressive. The player has asked if he can switch his main character for an Elven Martial artists after this session.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Nature Priest was and still is my favorite class over all. the Flavor is just to damned cool, and the implementation is fantastic. I was very happy to see the player keep with a theme as well.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Savage warrior is an even better Defender than I thought. It's very tempting to attack a charging player, and it becomes hard to ignore him once he's marked you, especially once he starts getting free attacks when you do (Most likely buffed with effect such as Distracting Blows and Warding strike.) I thought the lower damage might hinder this, but extra attacks really make up for it. I imagine a more optimized character would have been amazing[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Troubadour provides plenty of healing, we were worried for nothing. The team work effects made this probably one of the funnest characters to watch in the game. If there is one class that typifies the intended feel of fourth, I'd say the Troubadour is it. I am at a lost as to why a non-minotaur character would pick Inspiring Strike over Phantom Strike at first level, however.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]I'm still not a fan of the Spellbinder, as it doesn't feel very controllerish to me.[/FONT]​​


----------



## catsclaw227 (Oct 10, 2008)

Daelkyr said:


> While I am also saddened about the fact that there will be no update to the pdf when the errata is made available (I know that Piazo and Green Ronin do this), I plan on using Adobe Acrobat to make those changes to the pdf myself.



I hope it works for you.  Many of these PDFs are locked down and don't allow updating.  Unless you do something to rebuild the PDF.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Oct 10, 2008)

BlU_sKrEEm said:


> [FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Here is my review of my One Shot Through the Kobold Caves using APG classes:
> 
> <snip stuff>



That sounded fun.   I may end up getting this book via PDF anyway, since Ari's name is on it and it's getting some good press.  I will likely wait for the errata sheet though.


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## Daelkyr (Oct 10, 2008)

When I buy a pdf, my first measure it to help it come to an understanding that I have purchased it and I will do any and all formatting I see fit with it on my own PC. Sure, there's a little brute force involved, but once we both understand each other, everything goes so much smoother. I haven't yet found a pdf that couldn't say no after a little persuasion.


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## Shazman (Oct 10, 2008)

For those of you who have the book or Ari.  What does the Martial Artist multiclassing feat give you, and what does the Unseen Ninja PP do?  I'm really leaning towards getting this book, and this info is crucial to my decision.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 10, 2008)

Shazman said:


> For those of you who have the book or Ari.  What does the Martial Artist multiclassing feat give you, and what does the Unseen Ninja PP do?  I'm really leaning towards getting this book, and this info is crucial to my decision.




FOLLOWER OF THE WAY (MULTICLASS MARTIAL ARTIST)

*Prerequisite:* Dex 13, Wis 13

*Benefit:*  You  gain  training  in  one  skill  from  the 
martial artist’s class skill list.

Once  per  encounter,  you  can  use  the  Wind-Swift 
Charge ability. This allows you to use an at-will power—
of  either  your  normal  class,  or  the  martial  artist  class 
if you’ve gained any such abilities via future multiclass 
feats—at  the  culmination  of  the  charge,  rather  than 
relying on a basic attack.

As far as the unseen ninja, well, I'm willing to copy-and-paste a whole feat, but not a whole paragon path.  However, in summary...

It gives you stealth-related path features (including the ability to turn briefly invisible when spending an action point to gain an extra action), gives you some ability to use daggers with _chi_-based powers, gives you a few ninja-appropriate attack powers, and a utility power that you'll find _very_ useful for some of the ninja's supernatural "how the hell did he get in there?!" shtick.


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## Shazman (Oct 10, 2008)

That sounds interesting, but I was really hoping it would give the quick strike ability once an encounter and maybe proficiency with unarmed strike.  The Unseen Ninja PP does sound pretty cool.


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## Jack99 (Oct 10, 2008)

Okay, so I read some more now. I focused mostly on the heroic tier powers, since I feel they are the most important (to me). I skipped all the stuff that I saw had already been discussed. 

*The Martial Artist*
First of all, I really like what you did with the class. While the divine part is arguable (and not really how I would do it), it is so easy to change that it is not even worth wasting these lines on it . The only issue I have, is the Quick-strike. I see how it gives some added versatility to have it be an additional roll. However, I prefer a keep it simple approach, and was wondering if you think it would unbalance the class to just add the damage, much like the ranger does. My gut says no, but I would like to get some feedback on it 


Serpent Bends Aside: Is it supposed to deflect magical attacks as well?

False dead: Is it supposed to be usable in combat? If so, shouldn't it be an immediate reaction?
*Nature Priest*
Love this class as well. Awesome job.


Lightning Fist: Shouldn't it’s secondary attack be against reflex?

Gust of wind: Push 6 really sounds like a lot. I get that it's a classic druid thing, but 6 squares?

Sphere of fire: Why does it give -2 to attack rolls? Ongoing damage seems to be the fire shtick these days. What causes the penalty?

Heavy fog: Is there some height rule to it, that I have missed?

Slashing tree: Why suddenly use cha to attack, all other attacks use wis from what I noticed?

Bramble wall: That is a sweet power, but maybe the 1 hour duration is a bit too much. Do we have examples of other powers with similar durations? Maybe 5 minutes would be enough?

Entangling terrain: Why only up to 1 minute duration? Sustainable stuff can be sustained for the encounter, normally.
*Savage Warrior*
_Relentless Attack
Once per round, as an opportunity action, you may make a basic melee attack against an adjacent foe who attacks one of your allies with a melee or ranged attack._
If an enemy makes a ranged attack against anyone, while being adjacent to you, you already get an OA. Do you get another, or is something else?


Staggering blow: shouldn't this be a push effect? 

Interposing strike: (see above)

In general, I must admit that I am not too happy about the barbarian.  I see it as either the defender who hits hard (being able to take a lot of punishment to make up for the lower ac) or as the striker who hits really hard, while being able to take some hits (lots of big hulk smash hits). This barbarian feels a little bit too controller-ish or something. I see what you did, with the powers that crit on a 15+ (might want to mention that it assumes a hit) but it feels a bit too random. Which is a pity, because you really seem to have captured the feel, with many of the other powers.

*Troubadour*
Love this one as well!

Soothe the savage beast: No reason why it cant be cha vs will – the bard should be a better “sleeper” than the wizard. Having to use a secondary ability for one or two powers is a tad odd, design wise, at least imo.
*Spellbinder*
Not really sure about this one. I like the class, but something about it feels underpowered. However, I can't quite decide why, so for now, I will have to wait and see. 

All in all, a great book, thanks for writing it, Ari.


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## todd-ehrling (Oct 10, 2008)

Hi,
I just got the book, and I'm very pleased with it. There's a lot of great ideas.
I have one question though :
I read the problem with Demon Dance and I admit I have problems with its little brother : Writhing Serpent Strike. Is-it really an at-will power ? This minion auto-killer felles more like an encounter to me...

Thanks


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## goodmangames (Oct 11, 2008)

[removed per request]


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## Nikosandros (Oct 11, 2008)

*Edit:* This post is now irrelevant. Please remove.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 11, 2008)

[removed out of courtesy]


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## Gothmog (Oct 11, 2008)

Hey Joe and Ari,

I've got two players in my game who are going to be using the APG classes (nature priest and troubador), and they brought something up the other night.  We've been using power cards for the base classes in the our games so far, and we've come to really like using them in play.  Is there any chance you guys would be willing to put out a PDF of the powers in the APG, with space on them to write in attack bonus and damage?  I think there might be a market for them, and I know I'd be willing to pay $7-12 for a PDF file of the power cards.  I'd love to see this done as an industry standard when new powers are available in products.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 11, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> Hey Joe and Ari,
> 
> I've got two players in my game who are going to be using the APG classes (nature priest and troubador), and they brought something up the other night.  We've been using power cards for the base classes in the our games so far, and we've come to really like using them in play.  Is there any chance you guys would be willing to put out a PDF of the powers in the APG, with space on them to write in attack bonus and damage?  I think there might be a market for them, and I know I'd be willing to pay $7-12 for a PDF file of the power cards.  I'd love to see this done as an industry standard when new powers are available in products.




You. Are. Brilliant. We'll get this done and we'll make them color. We'll only be able to do the ones that are entirely new powers, but that's the vast majority of them.

What size cards would you prefer? 3x5 or some other size?

joe b.


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## catsclaw227 (Oct 11, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> You. Are. Brilliant. We'll get this done and we'll make them color. We'll only be able to do the ones that are entirely new powers, but that's the vast majority of them.
> 
> What size cards would you prefer? 3x5 or some other size?
> 
> joe b.



This is excellent news.  Joe, you get this done and you've got my sale.


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## Jack99 (Oct 11, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> This is excellent news.  Joe, you get this done and you've got my sale.




Yeah, I will buy that too! 

Another company included this up front in their release of a multiclass-class, and I must admit, doing so should be the new community standard for 3rd party publishers.

In color of course!


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## Zaukrie (Oct 11, 2008)

The should be the same size as DDM cards so they fit into the generic card sleeves.

Has this book made it to distributors yet? I'd really like to get my hands on it, but my FLGS has said that it isn't with their distributor yet.


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## Gothmog (Oct 11, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> You. Are. Brilliant. We'll get this done and we'll make them color. We'll only be able to do the ones that are entirely new powers, but that's the vast majority of them.
> 
> What size cards would you prefer? 3x5 or some other size?
> 
> joe b.




I'm glad you liked the idea and this could be a reality!    I'd prefer to see cards about the size of standard playing or DDM cards, that could fit down into card sleeves.  That makes the cards more durable, and you can put a standard card behind them for extra support.  Plus, you could fit more of them onto a page for easier printing with that size!

And as for landscape or standard format for the card- doesn't really matter to me.  The ones we've been using are landscape format, and they have plenty of white space left over on the card for writing notes.


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## RodneyThompson (Oct 11, 2008)

Just got my copy in the mail yesterday. I haven't had time to read it too in-depth, but it looks interesting. Nice work, guys!


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## jgbrowning (Oct 11, 2008)

Just want to let everyone know that the errata is now available at Your Games Now.

However, if you've purchased the PDF already just redownload it and the errata is included. Where possible errata was included in the text of the PDF (things like changing the levels of the paragon powers from 17th to 16th for example) but for larger corrections which would have resulted in changing the entire layout of the book there is a single errata page at the end of the PDF. Hopefully this compromise in errata presentation is satisfactory for most of our customers.

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 11, 2008)

Zaukrie said:


> Has this book made it to distributors yet? I'd really like to get my hands on it, but my FLGS has said that it isn't with their distributor yet.




The book is in distribution and should be available at distributors worldwide. Perhaps there is a local disruption in supply? If so it should be correctable in a short period.

joe b.


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## Nikosandros (Oct 11, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Where possible errata was included in the text of the PDF (things like changing the levels of the paragon powers from 17th to 16th for example) but for larger corrections which would have resulted in changing the entire layout of the book there is a single errata page at the end of the PDF. Hopefully this is compromise in errata presentation is satisfactory for most of our customers.



This is entirely reasonable. Thanks a lot, it's very appreciated.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 11, 2008)

Zaukrie said:


> The should be the same size as DDM cards so they fit into the generic card sleeves.






Gothmog said:


> I'd prefer to see cards about the size of standard playing or DDM cards, that could fit down into card sleeves.  That makes the cards more durable, and you can put a standard card behind them for extra support.  Plus, you could fit more of them onto a page for easier printing with that size!




We've been looking over the powers and have run across a potential snag. Some of the powers and class features may be too big fit on a single card. In that case, should we spread the information out through as many cards as it takes or is there a different method of presentation that would be preferred?

We've never made cards, so feedback is appreciated.

joe b.


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## Jack99 (Oct 11, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> We've been looking over the powers and have run across a potential snag. Some of the powers and class features may be too big fit on a single card. In that case, should we spread the information out through as many cards as it takes or is there a different method of presentation that would be preferred?
> 
> We've never made cards, so feedback is appreciated.
> 
> joe b.




From what I have seen, some use a smaller font when the amount of information that needs to be on the card increases.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 11, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> From what I have seen, some use a smaller font when the amount of information that needs to be on the card increases.




I think this should be possible for almost all of them, but something like the Wildshaper Prayer Hunter's Form (page 50) is over a full column of text, so I don't think it will shrink down enough.

joe b.


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## Jack99 (Oct 11, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> I think this should be possible for almost all of them, but something like the Wildshaper Prayer Hunter's Form (page 50) is over a full column of text, so I don't think it will shrink down enough.
> 
> joe b.




Could it fit on two cards? If so, make like a double-sided card where one side has the stats (Hunter's Form, Wildshaper Class Feature 11th level, Daily, Divine, Polymorph, Standard Action, Personal, along the begining of the effect. Then the other page has the rest of the Effect, along with the Sustain Minor info. If that make any sense. 

If you can keep the info down to two cards, people can keep the info together in one plastic card pocket, or whatever those are called.


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## RangerWickett (Oct 11, 2008)

Small request which I'd love, but I understand if it's not doable:

Could you possibly create some simple textures for the colored bar backgrounds of the powers? For instance, nature at-wills wouldn't just be green, they'd be green with a leaf pattern. Divine at-wills could have an angelic feather texture in the green bar. Etc.

I think WotC really dropped the ball by just having flat bars of color. Some manner of texture would look much more elegant, I believe (and would help you avoid any potential claims of you stealing their 'trade dress').

Like I said, I doubt it's feasible financially, but I'd love if it you did it.


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## Vanuslux (Oct 11, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Just want to let everyone know that the errata is now available at Your Games Now.
> 
> However, if you've purchased the PDF already just redownload it and the errata is included. Where possible errata was included in the text of the PDF (things like changing the levels of the paragon powers from 17th to 16th for example) but for larger corrections which would have resulted in changing the entire layout of the book there is a single errata page at the end of the PDF. Hopefully this compromise in errata presentation is satisfactory for most of our customers.
> 
> joe b.




For what it's worth, this compromise is the reason I'll be buying the AGP PDF come payday rather than Forgotten Heroes.


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## Gothmog (Oct 11, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> We've been looking over the powers and have run across a potential snag. Some of the powers and class features may be too big fit on a single card. In that case, should we spread the information out through as many cards as it takes or is there a different method of presentation that would be preferred?
> 
> We've never made cards, so feedback is appreciated.
> 
> joe b.




I'd say if you have to go to smaller font and use multiple cards, it should be fine.  Double-sided clear sleeves could house those cards, but I wouldn't use more than 2 sides for a given power or class feature.  Actually having to sort and keep track of multiple cards for the same power or feature would be a pain.

Anyway, thanks for listening to XRP's fans Joe- you guys are awesome!  I'm eagerly awaiting these APG cards!


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 11, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Just want to let everyone know that the errata is now available at Your Games Now.
> 
> However, if you've purchased the PDF already just redownload it and the errata is included. Where possible errata was included in the text of the PDF (things like changing the levels of the paragon powers from 17th to 16th for example) but for larger corrections which would have resulted in changing the entire layout of the book there is a single errata page at the end of the PDF. Hopefully this compromise in errata presentation is satisfactory for most of our customers.
> 
> joe b.





Is there a way to get the errata without signing up for an account?


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## BlU_sKrEEm (Oct 12, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> You. Are. Brilliant. We'll get this done and we'll make them color. We'll only be able to do the ones that are entirely new powers, but that's the vast majority of them.
> 
> What size cards would you prefer? 3x5 or some other size?
> 
> joe b.




Fantastic news! Count me on the buy list. I'm all for the standard DDM size,a nd color is a bonus, but not a requirement as far as I am concerned.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 12, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> Is there a way to get the errata without signing up for an account?




You can also find errata in the corrections section of our website.

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 12, 2008)

RangerWickett said:


> Small request which I'd love, but I understand if it's not doable:
> 
> Could you possibly create some simple textures for the colored bar backgrounds of the powers? For instance, nature at-wills wouldn't just be green, they'd be green with a leaf pattern. Divine at-wills could have an angelic feather texture in the green bar. Etc.
> 
> ...




As templates have been provided by the GSL SRD we'll be using those templates.

joe b.


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## Deadstop (Oct 12, 2008)

Ari or Joe,

Not a nitpick, just a matter of amused curiosity: Any idea what was the nature of the search-and-replace that transformed every mention of "lava" in the nature priest's Burning Lava power into "lahar"? I've been trying to work out the sort of change that would accidentally transform "va" into "har," and I haven't been able to come up with anything yet.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 12, 2008)

Deadstop said:


> Ari or Joe,
> 
> Not a nitpick, just a matter of amused curiosity: Any idea what was the nature of the search-and-replace that transformed every mention of "lava" in the nature priest's Burning Lava power into "lahar"? I've been trying to work out the sort of change that would accidentally transform "va" into "har," and I haven't been able to come up with anything yet.




I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly with all the "&quot"'s and such, but a lahar is a type of mudflow or landslide composed of pyroclastic material and water that flows down from a volcano. It's a flavor choice I think Ari made to be a bit different than standard lava.

We didn't do any search and replaces when editing APG. Those things are dangerous.

joe b.


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 12, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> You can also find errata in the corrections section of our website.
> 
> joe b.




Thank you!


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## catsclaw227 (Oct 12, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> You can also find errata in the corrections section of our website.



Hi Joe -- I just added the book to my RPGNow cart, along with Plague, which I will then purchase when my account fills back up on Wednesday (good day, lots of PDFs in my cart!)

Will the errata be part of that download, on RPGNow, or is it only uploaded to YourGamesNow users?


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## Deadstop (Oct 12, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly with all the "&quot"'s and such, but a lahar is a type of mudflow or landslide composed of pyroclastic material and water that flows down from a volcano. It's a flavor choice I think Ari made to be a bit different than standard lava.





Oh. Well, don't I look uneducated.



Not sure about the "&quot"s. I posted from my phone, and had to edit a few times to add spacing between paragraphs. I tried to change those codes back to quotation marks, and it looked as though it had worked in the preview, but apparently not.

Thanks,

Deadstop


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## jgbrowning (Oct 12, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Hi Joe -- I just added the book to my RPGNow cart, along with Plague, which I will then purchase when my account fills back up on Wednesday (good day, lots of PDFs in my cart!)
> 
> Will the errata be part of that download, on RPGNow, or is it only uploaded to YourGamesNow users?




The errata is part of all downloads. The file will also soon be up at Paizo and e23.

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 12, 2008)

Deadstop said:


> Oh. Well, don't I look uneducated.




Don't worry, it's not like most people ever even hear of lahars unless they live in the valleys of the rivers that have heads near volcanoes or unless one's a nature show buff. Since I know where Ari lives, I suspect it's the latter for him. Not a lot of volcanoes in Texas. 

joe b.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 12, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Don't worry, it's not like most people ever even hear of lahars unless they live in the valleys of the rivers that have heads near volcanoes or unless one's a nature show buff. Since I know where Ari lives, I suspect it's the latter for him.




Yep. Watch Discovery and National Geographic all the time, or rather I did back when I had cable. 

Although I think I actually first heard the word on History Channel.

It's amazing how much D&D inspiration you can get from those three channels...


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 12, 2008)

Okay, missed this the first time around.



Jack99 said:


> The only issue I have, is the Quick-strike. I see how it gives some added versatility to have it be an additional roll. However, I prefer a keep it simple approach, and was wondering if you think it would unbalance the class to just add the damage, much like the ranger does. My gut says no, but I would like to get some feedback on it




I don't think it'll unbalance anything, as long as you add some sort of minor action (like the warlock's curse or the ranger's quarry) to use it. I think it loses a lot of the class's flavor, but of course, that's just me. 



> Serpent Bends Aside: Is it supposed to deflect magical attacks as well?




_Any_ melee or ranged attack.



> False dead: Is it supposed to be usable in combat? If so, shouldn't it be an immediate reaction?




While there are some battlefield applications, it's not primarily a combat-power. It's not meant to be an immediate reaction, no.



> Lightning Fist: Shouldn't it’s secondary attack be against reflex?




Nope. Same as the primary attack--Fortitude--just on different targets.



> Gust of wind: Push 6 really sounds like a lot. I get that it's a classic druid thing, but 6 squares?




It's a lot, yep. But since it doesn't actually do any damage, I'm okay with that. 



> Sphere of fire: Why does it give -2 to attack rolls? Ongoing damage seems to be the fire shtick these days. What causes the penalty?




Just part of the spell. Ongoing damage is _common_ for fire attacks, but it's not _universal_. Think of it as being distracted by the pain, if you'd like. 



> Heavy fog: Is there some height rule to it, that I have missed?




I probably should have specified/called it out, but it's the same as the other dimensions of the burst--3 squares.



> Slashing tree: Why suddenly use cha to attack, all other attacks use wis from what I noticed?




I did that deliberately with all the "tree" spells. Since they can make multiple attacks completely separate from the druid's turn, I didn't want them to be _quite_ as good in terms of "to-hit."



> Bramble wall: That is a sweet power, but maybe the 1 hour duration is a bit too much. Do we have examples of other powers with similar durations?




See _wall of ice_ in the _PHB_.



> Entangling terrain: Why only up to 1 minute duration? Sustainable stuff can be sustained for the encounter, normally.




Actually, in the _PHB_ there are quite a few powers that can be sustained for less than the standard 5 minutes. This one felt too powerful to allow for the full 5.



> _Relentless Attack
> Once per round, as an opportunity action, you may make a basic melee attack against an adjacent foe who attacks one of your allies with a melee or ranged attack._
> 
> If an enemy makes a ranged attack against anyone, while being adjacent to you, you already get an OA. Do you get another, or is something else?




Okay, this is my fault for not clarifying. You only get one OA against the enemy who provokes via making a ranged attack. _But_, there are powers that allow you to make your Relentless Attack against someone farther away than adjacent to you, or that grant bonuses to your Relentless Attack roll, and in _those_ cases, it's important to know that ranged attacks also trigger it.



> Staggering blow: shouldn't this be a push effect?




No, because it doesn't have to be away from you. You can knock someone to the side, if you want.



> Interposing strike: (see above)




Again, nope, because "push" is defined as "away from _you_," and this is "away from your ally[/i]. "Slide" seemed to make the most sense.



> I see what you did, with the powers that crit on a 15+ (might want to mention that it assumes a hit) but it feels a bit too random. Which is a pity, because you really seem to have captured the feel, with many of the other powers.




Defenders often have vaguely controllerish powers, so I figured it was safe to go that route. In general, going this way--defender-leaning-controller, rather than defender-leaning-striker--let me include a lot of powers I thought were pretty cool, that I couldn't have included otherwise.

But hey, you've always got WotC's barbarian. 



> Soothe the savage beast: No reason why it cant be cha vs will – the bard should be a better “sleeper” than the wizard. Having to use a secondary ability for one or two powers is a tad odd, design wise, at least imo.




It's not without precedent in the _PHB_, though, and making this "Sleep" be better than the wizard's--especially when the wizard is a controller and the troubadour a leader--just didn't work, balance-wise.



> Not really sure about this one. I like the class, but something about it feels underpowered. However, I can't quite decide why, so for now, I will have to wait and see.




It's certainly a _narrower_ class (which is one of the reasons I borrowed a lot of other class's powers for it). But underpowered? Let me know if your experience confirms that.



> All in all, a great book, thanks for writing it, Ari.




Ya velcome.


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## Jack99 (Oct 12, 2008)

Thanks for the very thorough explanation. Helps a lot when my players ask the questions that I can quote the author. Saves some arguments back and forth 


Cheers.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 13, 2008)

My own personal money is very limited at the moment (I'm paying off debts, unsurprisingly!) but I'm going to mention this book to my gaming group tonight.

I'm also going to mention the _fantastic_ attitude towards errata, corrections and revisions that has gone on in this thread over the past week. Ari, if the rest of your stuff is going to be this good, you may as well open up some sort of "subscribe to publications by this author" feature on the website.

jgbrowning - the speed of response has me appluading. You're all doing a great job, just wish I could afford the book!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 13, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Thanks for the very thorough explanation. Helps a lot when my players ask the questions that I can quote the author. Saves some arguments back and forth
> 
> 
> Cheers.




Let's break into an argument on "authorial intent" and "interpretation by the reader" - Not.


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## Shazman (Oct 13, 2008)

I want to commend both Ari and jgbrowning for their helpfullness on this thread.  I have one more annoying question before I finally cave in and buy the book.  What is the difference between the merciless assassin PP in the APG, and the shadow assassain PP in the PHB?


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## Primitive Screwhead (Oct 13, 2008)

*Mouseferatu*,   one of my players will be running an Elvish Martial Artists in my campaign... and it looks like it will be a ton of fun!

But he had one question that I couldn't answer.

Serpent Bends Aside (Daily, level 1) and Deadly Dodge (Encounter, level 3)...
The only apparent differences are that SBA allows deflection of ranged attacks and DD requires an adjacent enemy to deflect the attack to...?

Was this near duplication intentional?


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## Zander (Oct 13, 2008)

In response to my question about The Guide's availability in the UK, Joe B. said: 







jgbrowning said:


> The book is making its way through the distribution chain right now. Books should start hitting FLGS next week.




Well, three days after its UK release, Orcs Nest, central London's only dedicated RPG shop, had sold out. By the end of day 5 after release, there were only two copies left for sale in central London shops - and I snagged one of them.  

My guess is that before the book has been out a week in the UK, there'll be no copies left for sale in central London. That's pretty damn hot!

I haven't had time to peruse the book but a cursory examination explains why: this is a must-have 4E supplement.

Zander
Organiser, London D&D Meetup


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 13, 2008)

Primitive Screwhead said:


> Was this near duplication intentional?




They're deliberately similar, yes. Although _deadly dodge_ is a higher level, it's an encounter power, so I wanted it to be similar to, but a little less versatile, than the daily equivalent.

In retrospect, I probably should've made them more distinct, since there's no good reason to take both, now. But it wouldn't be fair of me to call that "errata," per se, since it's not a mistake--just a reconsideration on my part.


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## The Little Raven (Oct 13, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> They're deliberately similar, yes. Although _deadly dodge_ is a higher level, it's an encounter power, so I wanted it to be similar to, but a little less versatile, than the daily equivalent.
> 
> In retrospect, I probably should've made them more distinct, since there's no good reason to take both, now. But it wouldn't be fair of me to call that "errata," per se, since it's not a mistake--just a reconsideration on my part.




Learning from what you did not-so-well is the mark of a good designer. I haven't picked up the book yet, but my FLGS is supposed to get in a copy for me tomorrow, so I look forward to seeing it.


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## Zaukrie (Oct 16, 2008)

Well, for some reason my FLGS can't get this ordered, so I gave up and downloaded it last night. On first glance, I'll give it a very high grade. The classes look fun and interesting to play. I had very little time to look at things, but the MA doesn't look like it has the same kind of damage output that most of the other classes do (I want to stress I looked at it for about 5 minutes, so I'm probably missing something - and I only read up to the level 3 powers).

The troubador looks great, as does the savage warrior. 

This is going to see a ton of use in my games, thanks for writing it.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 16, 2008)

Zaukrie said:


> Well, for some reason my FLGS can't get this ordered, so I gave up and downloaded it last night. On first glance, I'll give it a very high grade. The classes look fun and interesting to play. I had very little time to look at things, but the MA doesn't look like it has the same kind of damage output that most of the other classes do (I want to stress I looked at it for about 5 minutes, so I'm probably missing something - and I only read up to the level 3 powers).
> 
> The troubador looks great, as does the savage warrior.
> 
> This is going to see a ton of use in my games, thanks for writing it.




Glad you're happy with the book.

Zaukrie, if you'd either pm me or send me an e-mail at josephbrowning@gmail.com letting me know your local retailer I'll pass this information along to my consolidator who'll track down where the communication is breaking down in the distribution chain. The APG is available right now, so I'm a bit intrigued as to what's going on.

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 16, 2008)

Thought everyone would like to know the power cards for the Advanced Player's Guide are now available.

joe b.


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## Gothmog (Oct 16, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Thought everyone would like to know the power cards for the Advanced Player's Guide are now available.
> 
> joe b.




Wow!  That was fast.  Thanks Joe- and in perfect time for my game tomorrow night!  The cards look great and are exactly what I was hoping for.  Thanks again for being so responsive to XRP's fans!


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## Zaukrie (Oct 16, 2008)

$7 seems a tad high to me. I'm not sure what the price point for me is, but $7 isn't it.


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## thundershot (Oct 16, 2008)

Easy enough to just make them as we need them...


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## Vanuslux (Oct 16, 2008)

Zaukrie said:


> $7 seems a tad high to me. I'm not sure what the price point for me is, but $7 isn't it.




Agreed...though to a certain extent it makes sense because the classes are the meat of the book and the powers are the meat of the classes.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 16, 2008)

Zaukrie said:


> $7 seems a tad high to me. I'm not sure what the price point for me is, but $7 isn't it.




Well, check your e-mail, then.  It looks like a little serendipitous thanks for the information concerning your FLGS's distribution concerns.



thundershot said:


> Easy enough to just make them as we need them...






Vanuslux said:


> Agreed...though to a certain extent it makes sense because the classes are the meat of the book and the powers are the meat of the classes.




The power cards are roughly 50 pages, and as you note, the meat of much of the book. Since this is purely a convenience product, we priced it as such. Those who want to make their own will do that, while those who'd rather not now have an option. It's a time/effort choice each individual customer will have to determine for themselves.

joe b.


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## Jack99 (Oct 16, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Thought everyone would like to know the power cards for the Advanced Player's Guide are now available.
> 
> joe b.




Do the cards have errataed versions of the powers?


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## jgbrowning (Oct 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Do the cards have errataed versions of the powers?




Yes, they do.

joe b.


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## Darkwolf71 (Oct 16, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Well, check your e-mail, then.  It looks like a little serendipitous thanks for the information concerning your FLGS's distribution concerns.



This was very cool of you. 

Think we could get a preview of one of the cards? I thought there would be one on your website, but didn't see anything but the cover image.


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## Zaukrie (Oct 16, 2008)

yes, that was nice. Thanks,


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## Jack99 (Oct 16, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> This was very cool of you.
> 
> Think we could get a preview of one of the cards? I thought there would be one on your website, but didn't see anything but the cover image.




There is on RPGnow


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## Darkwolf71 (Oct 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> There is on RPGnow




So there is, thanks.

They look good too, I might have to consider these.


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 17, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Thought everyone would like to know the power cards for the Advanced Player's Guide are now available.
> 
> joe b.




Is there a combo deal? I can see how some would hate paying for the same thing twice but it is convinence you're paying for.

Hmmm... perhaps future production/products will feature powers put into such a style to being with...


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## VictorC (Oct 17, 2008)

My appologies if this has already been touched upon. Under the Spellbinder power list in the at-will section appears a power called Orb of Pearly Light, however, in the keywords it's listed as a encounter power. 

Is it in the wrong list or is it mislabeled?


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 17, 2008)

VictorC said:


> My appologies if this has already been touched upon. Under the Spellbinder power list in the at-will section appears a power called Orb of Pearly Light, however, in the keywords it's listed as a encounter power.
> 
> Is it in the wrong list or is it mislabeled?




It's just mislabeled. It's in the right place.


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## VictorC (Oct 17, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> It's just mislabeled. It's in the right place.





Thanks, congradulations again on the book. I just got it last night, so I'll probably have more. 

I really like it all so far. It took me a few seconds to get the awsome of the Martial Artist, but I get it now.


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## Jack99 (Oct 17, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Yes, they do.
> 
> joe b.




Thanks. I have them now. And while I of course wouldn't mind them to be free, I find $7 to be more than fair, considering  the time it would take to copy-paste 400 powers, assuming one had your book on pdf.

Cheers

PS: Keep up the great work. APG and Plague are imho two of the best 4e products produced outside of the core 3.


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## thundershot (Oct 17, 2008)

I think the issue with the cost of the cards is that no one will ever use all the cards... just what the character needs..


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## VictorC (Oct 17, 2008)

The Nature Priest's "Lightning Fist" power, do you make the secondary attack before or after you push the target?

Additionally, can conjured animals flank? I apologize if I missed it in the book.


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## Shazman (Oct 19, 2008)

So, do any of you that have been using the new classes and races from the APG care to share your play experiences?


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 19, 2008)

VictorC said:


> The Nature Priest's "Lightning Fist" power, do you make the secondary attack before or after you push the target?




As written, it occurs after, since the push effect is part of the primary attack and the secondary attack occurs once the primary is resolved.

If you wanted to house rule it to occur before, that wouldn't break anything. Just make sure you're consistent one way or the other. 



> Additionally, can conjured animals flank? I apologize if I missed it in the book.




Afraid not. Because they're designed around similar conjuration powers (like some of the cleric's), they're really more summoned "effects" than actual creatures. One of the results of that is that they cannot make OAs, or do anything without explicit command from their creators. This makes them ineligible to provide flanking bonuses.

(Plus, it'd make the prayers overpowered as currently written.)


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## VictorC (Oct 20, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> (Plus, it'd make the prayers overpowered as currently written.)




Thanks for your responces, as previously stated, there will most likely be more questions. If at any point I get too annoying just tell me to shut up.


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## Madcap (Oct 23, 2008)

I have read the APG quite a bit over the past couple of days.  A couple of things stick out that seem out of sorts.

1. I know you touched on this already, but Gusting Wind seems way overpowered for a Level 1 Encounter Power.  The area of effect and power effects are uber when compared to wizard spells like Color Spray, Burning Hands and Thunderwave.  Being an encounter power, I expect it to be better than Thunderwave.  But it is a bit much.  My play experience (KotS, TsL) tells me that push effects are strong.

2.  A vast majority of the Troubadour melee attacks target something other than AC.  Other Leaders, Strikers and Defenders target AC a majority of the time with their melee attacks unless the power is meant to be "armor defeating".  This seems to give the Troubadour a decided edge in melee.

Other than that, I like the product well enough.  I think the races are well done.  The rules in the back, such as crafting and optional wound effects, are also well done.  I think some of the class powers may need to be tweaked to make them comparable to the other classes we've seen so far from WotC.  But maybe I am wrong...


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## Piratecat (Oct 23, 2008)

One of my players has picked it up, and is very excited to play a troubador. She loves how it can be a flag-wearing symbol of inspiration, instead of merely a musician. Nice job on that.

Is there anything about the troubador that I, as DM, should be aware of?


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## Zaukrie (Oct 23, 2008)

My FLGS now has this book. Of course, now I own the PDF, so I have not decided what to do yet. Obviously they resolved whatever the issue was.

I still have trouble understanding how the martial artist dishes out damage at a meaningful rate compared to the other available PC classes. Clearly I need to play one and see.


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## Phaezen (Oct 23, 2008)

Bought the pdf, very happy.  In an related note we are in pre-campaign discussions for next year ad one of the players expressed an interest in playing a more hobbit like halfling and another wants to play a half orc, neither of them were aware that I had bought the APG yet. 

Phaezen


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## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 23, 2008)

Ari - my copy was waiting for me in my email this morning & I want to say a big thank you for helping it to arrive.

To everyone else - I am going to be running 4e at Dragonmeet - Home at the end of November in London, UK. Having heard so many good things about this book, I PM'd Mouseferatu and asked if it would be at all possible to have a copy of the game - on the basis that I used it to create characters for this convention game, and made it clear that I had received the book as a gift. He then gave his blessing and asked me to email Joseph Browning, who has also kindly agreed that this could happen.

The reason that I asked is that I have no spare money to spend on gaming books right now, given that I have a large debt to pay off. I am massively indebted to Ari, Joseph & Suzi Yee for agreeing to give me a copy of the .pdf, and I fully intend to get lots of use out of it!


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## Evilhalfling (Oct 24, 2008)

okay I finally got my copy: 
this weekend the party  will be opposing the Blackleaf tribe, defended by savage warriors and nature priests, and demons of course.  One question though..

Lighting Fist (at-will) you push the target and make a secondary attack vs 2 adjacent targets.  Is that before after the push?


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 24, 2008)

Evilhalfling said:


> Lighting Fist (at-will) you push the target and make a secondary attack vs 2 adjacent targets.  Is that before after the push?




http://www.enworld.org/forum/4514377-post234.html


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## MichaelSomething (Oct 26, 2008)

I also have a Troubadour question!  How am I suppose to handle the weapon/implement thing?  It seems like I'll need a weapon for the melee weapon powers, an implement for the magical like powers, and a ranged weapons sometimes too?  I'm not sure what I'm suppose to do in this regard.


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## Connorsrpg (Nov 6, 2008)

Wow, my ordered copy arrived in the mail. XRP is amazing. It took a week to reach me here in rural Australia. I am still waiting on CDs I ordered almost 2 months ago 

Well done Ari. This looks great and nature classes are likely to get a real work out in my African-influenced campaign.

BTW: someone had concern re a power being similar to another but at higher level. Don't forget the RETRAINING rules. When you power up to the higher level retrain the lower level one to something else. Given the retraining mechanic I actually wish there were more powers that are very similar, but more powerful. Makes more sense to power up rather than more complete new powers appearing as you drop off others.

Anyway great job guys. and your enthusiasm and responses on this thread are also much appreciated.

Cheers, C


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## J-Dog (Nov 21, 2008)

Hey Ari,
I absolutely love this book. Fantastic Job! Thanks.
I’ve played the Savage Warrior a lot, and in a campaign I’m running, one of the players is playing a Nature Priest.
I do have a question about Blinding Bats. It is a first level Daily that does 2 dice of damage and blinds the target. It does half on a miss, and it can be maintained for a minor, doing the damage again every round (and presumably doing half on miss and blinding the target on a hit). It affects a burst 1, so it can hit several targets. In play, this has been very powerful. The only time that it hasn’t been is in cramped quarters. Is it meant to be this powerful?
Anyway, great job.
J-Dog


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## MonkLover (Jan 17, 2009)

*Any plans to sell the hard Cover on Amazon.ca*

I have noted that the hard cover version of this book is available on amazon.com, but is not available on amazon.ca. Is there any possibility of this book being made available through amazon.ca
I look forward to getting my hands on this book as It was almost a deal breaker for me that 4E did not have a monk. My current DM has let me work out a monk class with his help, and it would be nice to see some concepts or options that we did not think of.


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## goodmangames (Jan 17, 2009)

MonkLover said:


> I have noted that the hard cover version of this book is available on amazon.com, but is not available on amazon.ca. Is there any possibility of this book being made available through amazon.ca




Normally we don't do anything special to have books listed on amazon.ca...they just pick up the products from amazon.com. But I'll inquire and see what we can do.


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## Jack99 (Jan 17, 2009)

goodmangames said:


> Normally we don't do anything special to have books listed on amazon.ca...they just pick up the products from amazon.com. But I'll inquire and see what we can do.




Did Goodman Games buy the rights to the Advanced Player's Guide from XRP?


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## goodmangames (Jan 18, 2009)

Whoops, nevermind! I thought this was in reference to another book. My fault.


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