# What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?



## Upper_Krust (Mar 13, 2009)

Hey all! 

Been pondering the levels of the D&D Gods. While WotC seem happy enough to cap at 35 (and I agree that makes sense given the game currently stops at 30th) they did mention a few possible levels of the others in the past.

For my own purposes I have been using the followng guide to determine their power, though I am curious to hear what everyone else thinks about their levels.

300+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 38
100+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 37
30+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 36
10+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 35
3+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 34
1+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 33
300,000+ Worshippers = Solo Level 32
etc.

As such...

*Solo Level 37*
Bane
Corellon
Gruumsh
Moradin
Pelor
Raven Queen

*Solo Level 36*
Asmodeus
Avandra
Bahamut
Kord
Tharizdun (imprisoned/weakened)
Zehir

*Solo Level 35*
Erathis
Lolth
Melora
Sehanine
Tiamat
Vecna

*Solo Level 34*
Demogorgon?
Ioun
Mephistopheles?
Torog

*Solo Level 33*
Baalzebul?
Orcus


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## Shemeska (Mar 13, 2009)

If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars. I would not give actual stats to their true forms since it seems (to me) silly to try to pin down a concept or a base idea of the universe made flesh into a stat block. That's not the answer for a very gamist approach to D&D I suppose, and it's very much at odds with your view on the interaction between PCs and gods Krust, but that's the one that I would go with given my style of running.

Mortals can (and do) fight such beings in my game, but there's no statblock for the deity when it happens, and there's never anything so straightforward as a combat between god and PCs (except for PCs versus avatars which has happened).


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## SKyOdin (Mar 13, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars. I would not give actual stats to their true forms since it seems (to me) silly to try to pin down a concept or a base idea of the universe made flesh into a stat block. That's not the answer for a very gamist approach to D&D I suppose, and it's very much at odds with your view on the interaction between PCs and gods Krust, but that's the one that I would go with given my style of running.




I wouldn't call killing gods something that is inherently gamist. I am big fan of ancient mythology, and I tend to model my campaigns and campaign settings on mythology. As a result, while gods are incredibly powerful, they are like really, really, powerful mortals. They can be defeated or even killed by powerful mortals, demons, or spirits. As such, having gods at a power level where they can be actually killed by the PCs is desirable for me on the basis of flavor and narrative. Besides, if you can't kill gods, how do you have the PCs fight against god-killing abominations of the likes of the Midgard Serpent and Fenrir? I like the idea of the PCs taking a crack at one of those. Of course, I think Thor is an appropriate character to model an epic level PC on.

As for the opening post, I have always hated the idea that gods draw power from their worshipers. To answer the main question though, I think gods are appropriate threats for characters in the upper end of the epic tier, and should primarily be elite or solo creatures.


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## greatamericanfolkher (Mar 13, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars. I would not give actual stats to their true forms since it seems (to me) silly to try to pin down a concept or a base idea of the universe made flesh into a stat block. That's not the answer for a very gamist approach to D&D I suppose, and it's very much at odds with your view on the interaction between PCs and gods Krust, but that's the one that I would go with given my style of running.
> 
> Mortals can (and do) fight such beings in my game, but there's no statblock for the deity when it happens, and there's never anything so straightforward as a combat between god and PCs (except for PCs versus avatars which has happened).




This is basically my feeling on this as well. Well said.


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## Moon_Goddess (Mar 13, 2009)

In my game at least, the Gods did not create the universe, and don't have that kind of power, they are products of the universe.   So I don't tend to think of them on that kind of unreachable level.   I like them at the insane but just barely possible level.


As such, Upper_Krust, I'd agree with your levels that's about the range I'd use maybe top it at 37, as I can't see any party of level 30 touching a level 38 anything.

Your listing of gods looks pretty good to me, numbers are about where I'd place them, care to stat them up for us.


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## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

Sounds good to me - maybe cap them out at level 40 solo and work down from there.  Very like 1e D&DG capping at 400 hp and working down.


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## Inyssius (Mar 14, 2009)

Deity power is not _that_ strongly linked to number of worshippers, I don't think. The gods existed long before mortals did; faith may be a power source, but I would hardly call it the defining one. The Raven Queen doesn't give a damn what you think, as long as you don't start stitching Blaspheme legionnaires together without her permission. Hardly anyone even knows the Chained God's *name*--but even imprisoned in an immense, timeless, inescapable prison overseen by _Torog the Jailor_, cast down and bound by literally all the gods capable of wielding any power at all, he can *still *will servants into existence who are _capable of butchering many Demon Lords_ merely by thinking about it! Tiamat is weak enough to die (and yes, that's worth commenting on) not because no one believes in her, but because she's _literally half_ of the god she was.

But those are just my thoughts, of course.  

I'm just an ivory-tower theorist! Please don't kill me!


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## Shemeska (Mar 14, 2009)

Inyssius said:


> Deity power is not _that_ strongly linked to number of worshippers, I don't think. The gods existed long before mortals did; faith may be a power source, but I would hardly call it the defining one.[/SIZE]




Depends entirely on your setting (and if you change it since it's your game after all). 4e's cosmology, I have no idea how they defined that, but prior to 4e, deities were considerably younger than the first outsider races, and many of them arose entirely out of mortal belief (the first ones indeed didn't seem to appear till after mortal life already existed in some form).


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## Inyssius (Mar 14, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> Depends entirely on your setting (and if you change it since it's your game after all).




Oh, indeed. I've got a stting I want to play in which belief really is the driving force for many gods, and this is causing them to fracture in increasingly freaky ways as the Celtic- and Mesoamerican-analogue myths are being simultaneously assimilated and stomped out by the Christianity analogue (while being worshiped in secret by several forbidden cults, whose beliefs are themselves changing wildly and in different ways as the world moves on). 

But since I see Zehir, Ioun, the Raven Queen, and Torog in the first post, I can only assume that the OP is talking about core cosmology--in which the Gods and Primordials, collectively the creators of the normal world and basically everything else (especially the mortal races), arose _way_ before anyone else came onto the scene.

Granted, there are gods who came after that; both the Raven Queen and Vecna were mortals who ascended long after the creation of everything (both by accumulation of arcane power, though the Raven Queen got a boost when she won her own private war with the tyrannical death god Nerull--now very dead indeed). Bahamut and Tiamat arose from the corpse of Io well after the Big War (and creation of the world) had gotten underway. After the Big War ended, Asmodeus ascended by rebelling against and then devouring the power of the now-nameless deity who created him. And so on. But my point remains; the Gods, as a group, created and empowered Man... not the other way around.


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## Bold or Stupid (Mar 14, 2009)

I vary my ideas of god's levels based on setting, but I enjoy the almost Grecian idea that heroes can kick a gods ass now and again. I'm sticking with this conceit of Core 4e in my semi homebrew world. I see the Core Deities as powerful beings who have have become patrons of the things that interest them and overseers of certain necessary tasks for realities function much in the same way that high level PCs. I'm unsure on exact levels, but I'm tending to think that it should be based on age somewhat. The only think I'm certain of is that Bahamut should be level 35 just like his sister.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 14, 2009)

Hey Shemeska mate! 

Been a while, hope you have been keeping well since we last chatted?



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars.




Certain Archfiends (Orcus) and Gods (Vecna) have already been detailed in 4th Edition.



> I would not give actual stats to their true forms since it seems (to me) silly to try to pin down a concept or a base idea of the universe made flesh into a stat block.




Unless of course they are not 'concepts' but rather supernatural intelligences drawing power from those concepts. For instance a God of Fire doesn't necessarily control Primordials of Fire (such as Imix or Surtur) and vice versa, so there is no reason to assume that a God of Fire is 'fire' itself.

Likewise your idea doesn't allow for the possibility of two Gods of Fire coexisting simultaneously. 



> That's not the answer for a very gamist approach to D&D I suppose, and it's very much at odds with your view on the interaction between PCs and gods Krust, but that's the one that I would go with given my style of running.




I know.



> Mortals can (and do) fight such beings in my game, but there's no statblock for the deity when it happens, and there's never anything so straightforward as a combat between god and PCs (except for PCs versus avatars which has happened).




I prefer the 'all power is relative' route...as you know.


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## Klaus (Mar 14, 2009)

In mythology gods were constantly going against mortals. And never forget that fact that, at level 30, a PC can very well be a demigod himself. I think a group of 5 demigods teaming up against a full god is entirely possible.

I'd put Bahamut and Tiamat of equal footing, since they're halves of Io, and place Melora in the highest rank. She is "Mother Nature", so to speak, so I'd say she should be on equal footing with the gods of War, Death, Magic and other basic forces. I'd even peg down Moradin and elevate Ioun.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 14, 2009)

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Sounds good to me - maybe cap them out at level 40 solo and work down from there.  Very like 1e D&DG capping at 400 hp and working down.




Oddly enough I have been putting together a new method of determining deities by worshippers and then converting Earth's Pantheons to the new format based on the time during Earth's history when they were at their strongest.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/eterni...ations-world-cultures-throughout-history.html

So for instance the Greek Gods would be weaker than the Roman Gods (or Roman incarnations of the same Gods).

Using this new system, Odin works out as a Level 35 Solo opponent (the same as Vecna and Tiamat in 4E), while Thor would work out as a Level 31 Solo opponent (less than Graz'zt in 4E who is Level 32).

The reason for this being of course that the D&D World has a single Pantheon whereas Earth has multiple Pantheons. So less worshippers to go around more deities. 

Of course in your campaign (where deities are potentially worshipped on multiple planets) Odin would probably be about Level 41 or so.

As for capping deities at Level 40, I actually cap Greater Gods at Level 41 - though that Level would require a single Pantheon (with a single figurehead) having 10+ billion worshippers.


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## S'mon (Mar 14, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> So for instance the Greek Gods would be weaker than the Roman Gods (or Roman incarnations of the same Gods).




Hmmm.  Two points:

1.  The Pantheonic Roman gods like Jupiter were not really a big deal by and large, just copies of the Greek gods.  I can see Mithras being more powerful, though.

2. More importantly, what happens when civilisations and cultures come into conflict?  Take the Persian wars with Greece that I think we studied in Classical history back in BRA.  If # worshippers is the sole determinant of power, then the Persian gods with many tens of millions will easily kick the butts of the Greek gods with only a couple million.  That doesn't seem right to me.  At any rate, Persian gods fighting on the plain of Marathon (as described by Herodotus, who supposedly saw one kill the man next to him!) should not be more powerful than Greek gods fighting on the Greek side.

These can be treated in-game as 'avatars' of course, but that is an Indian concept, you don't see it in Aryan (or Greek, or Norse) myth AFAIK.  The Greek approach was more that gods were beatable, as Diomedes beat Ares at Troy, but being immortal were hard-to-impossible to permanently kill.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 14, 2009)

Howdy Klaus! 



			
				Klaus said:
			
		

> In mythology gods were constantly going against mortals. And never forget that fact that, at level 30, a PC can very well be a demigod himself. I think a group of 5 demigods teaming up against a full god is entirely possible.




Absolutely.



> I'd put Bahamut and Tiamat of equal footing, since they're halves of Io,




My reasoning behind this was to represent Bahamut's singular head against Tiamat's five. I am not sure how you could make a Level 35 Bahamut the equal of Tiamat without some ridiculously arbitrary powers and abilities. Both Tiamat and Vecna are the same level but it seems to me as if Tiamat is dealing on average around three times Vecna's damage.

Bahamut in 1st Edition had 168 hp while Tiamat had 128 hp but a higher damage output. So there is a precedent for this.



> and place Melora in the highest rank. She is "Mother Nature", so to speak, so I'd say she should be on equal footing with the gods of War, Death, Magic and other basic forces.




Possibly. At the very least I would swop Avandra and Melora, making Melora 36th and Avandra 35th instead of the other way around.



> I'd even peg down Moradin




Well didn't an official source by WotC peg Moradin at 37th?

Also would you have Moradin lower than Gruumsh and Corellon? Based on the new warring mythology of the core Pantheon it appears Gruumsh and Bane are also roughly equals (although naturally that doesn't have to mean the exact same level - but its a pretty good marker I think).



> and elevate Ioun.




Isn't Corellon meant to be the defacto God of Magic though?


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## Arawn76 (Mar 14, 2009)




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## Upper_Krust (Mar 14, 2009)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  Two points:
> 
> 1.  The Pantheonic Roman gods like Jupiter were not really a big deal by and large, just copies of the Greek gods.  I can see Mithras being more powerful, though.








> 2. More importantly, what happens when civilisations and cultures come into conflict?




A defeated culture would be subsumed by the victor, likewise the defeated Pantheon (assuming the fight took place simultaneously on the Earthly and Astral planes) would become a Slave Pantheon with its members reduced in power (possibly to Avatar status - still fleshing out the exat details).



> Take the Persian wars with Greece that I think we studied in Classical history back in BRA.  If # worshippers is the sole determinant of power, then the Persian gods with many tens of millions will easily kick the butts of the Greek gods with only a couple million.  That doesn't seem right to me.




The difference between the 30+ million (45 was the nearest I could glean rounded down to 30 as the start of this thread notes) of the Persian Gods and the 1+ million (2.5 million rounded down to 1) of the Greeks only translates into a 2 Level difference (on average) between the deities. Not insurmountable by any means - especially if you have home (realm) advantage.



> At any rate, Persian gods fighting on the plain of Marathon (as described by Herodotus, who supposedly saw one kill the man next to him!) should not be more powerful than Greek gods fighting on the Greek side.




Its possible that that there were numerically more Persian Gods but that individually they were only on a par or weaker than their greek counterparts. 



> These can be treated in-game as 'avatars' of course, but that is an Indian concept, you don't see it in Aryan (or Greek, or Norse) myth AFAIK.  The Greek approach was more that gods were beatable, as Diomedes beat Ares at Troy, but being immortal were hard-to-impossible to permanently kill.




Looking at this new worshipper conversion system Ares probably would have been about a Level 27 Solo encounter (circa his fight with Diomedes), so its possible that a Level 30 mortal PC could have bested him.


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## S'mon (Mar 14, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> The difference between the 30+ million (45 was the nearest I could glean rounded down to 30 as the start of this thread notes) of the Persian Gods and the 1+ million (2.5 million rounded down to 1) of the Greeks only translates into a 2 Level difference (on average) between the deities. Not insurmountable by any means - especially if you have home (realm) advantage.




OK, I'm not that familiar with the 4e power gradient.  One thing I know is that NPC stats in 4e are only there for interaction with PCs; so calling a deity a Level 35 Solo means "We expect him to fight alone with level 30 PCs as a difficult encounter", yes?

I'm currently tending to the Moorcock approach of having deities' stats/power vary wildly depending on the setting/world in which they appear, which would argue against any single "real" set of stats as encapsulating that deity.  Which fits 4e's postmodernist approach very well, I think.  So maybe "What level is Bane?" is the wrong question - his level will vary depending on the world/setting in which he appears.  This gives more flexibility to having say Kord be level 35 & killable on Greyhawk but level 40+ and unkillable in a homebrew, etc.   Kord's death on Greyhawk will not affect homebrew-Kord, except that homebrew-Kord might be dimly aware of events in other worlds and times.  Again, this is taken from Moorcock.

Closely linked clusters of planes that form a single setting may have just one Kord, who draws power from worshippers on all of them, but faraway world will have their own Kord.  This certainly helps maintain continuity when minor demon lord Lolth is killed on Oerth without having the great goddess Lloth vanish from Toril.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 14, 2009)

S'mon said:
			
		

> OK, I'm not that familiar with the 4e power gradient.  One thing I know is that NPC stats in 4e are only there for interaction with PCs; so calling a deity a Level 35 Solo means "We expect him to fight alone with level 30 PCs as a difficult encounter", yes?




An Elite monster is equal to 2 monsters of the same level, a Solo monster is equal to 5 monsters of the same level (and a Minion is 1/4). 

Five levels higher is roughly the maximum threshold you would use against a group (five levels lower is probably the minimum). 



> I'm currently tending to the Moorcock approach of having deities' stats/power vary wildly depending on the setting/world in which they appear, which would argue against any single "real" set of stats as encapsulating that deity.  Which fits 4e's postmodernist approach very well, I think.




Agreed. Although you could say that a deity would be maximum level on the Astral Plane (or wherever their home plane is) but when encountered on a particular world the level of their faith on that world might determine their power when encountered there - sort of like Avatars in a roundabout way.



> So maybe "What level is Bane?" is the wrong question - his level will vary depending on the world/setting in which he appears.  This gives more flexibility to having say Kord be level 35 & killable on Greyhawk but level 40+ and unkillable in a homebrew, etc.   Kord's death on Greyhawk will not affect homebrew-Kord, except that homebrew-Kord might be dimly aware of events in other worlds and times.  Again, this is taken from Moorcock.
> 
> Closely linked clusters of planes that form a single setting may have just one Kord, who draws power from worshippers on all of them, but faraway world will have their own Kord.  This certainly helps maintain continuity when minor demon lord Lolth is killed on Oerth without having the great goddess Lloth vanish from Toril.




Thats one possibility.


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## Klaus (Mar 14, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> Howdy Klaus!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Re: Bahamut and Tiamat: well, D&D has a history of making good creatures more powerful than their evil counterparts. But I see your point.

You're right that Corellon is the god of Magic. Ioun is the goddess of study (could say wizardry) and of prophecy (whereas the Raven Queen is the goddess of fate).

Moradin can stay up there, he is also the god of creation, hearth and family.


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## Shemeska (Mar 14, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> Unless of course they are not 'concepts' but rather supernatural intelligences drawing power from those concepts. For instance a God of Fire doesn't necessarily control Primordials of Fire (such as Imix or Surtur) and vice versa, so there is no reason to assume that a God of Fire is 'fire' itself.




Again, that boils down to how precisely you define what a god or similar being actually is on a basic level in your own campaign setting.



> Likewise your idea doesn't allow for the possibility of two Gods of Fire coexisting simultaneously.




It hasn't stopped me before. Imix and Kossuth just to pick a pair, both gain worship as 'gods of fire', and both openly claim to be just that. Assuming for the moment that they both are indeed gods of fire, and physically embody that concept -indeed -are- that concept itself- you might be right, except despite what they might claim, or their worshippers' believe, they're each embodying different aspects of the same concept.

Secondly, even if they embody the exact same concept like two deities created from the gestalt worship and belief of mortals on two different worlds on the material plane, I still see little reason to not allow one of them to exist, or have them be the same thing like you would imply. They might be the same concept, but the same concept as envisioned and viewed through the lens of devotion of two perhaps very different cultures.

Another example: demons being a physical manifestation of malignant chaos hasn't stopped the Abyss from being populated with an uncountable or infinite number of them. There's no limitation imposed at all like what you mentioned. It's a very different style than your own, but I've never come across anything restrictive or limiting (rather quite the opposite).


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## Primal (Mar 14, 2009)

SKyOdin said:


> I wouldn't call killing gods something that is inherently gamist. I am big fan of ancient mythology, and I tend to model my campaigns and campaign settings on mythology. As a result, while gods are incredibly powerful, they are like really, really, powerful mortals. They can be defeated or even killed by powerful mortals, demons, or spirits. As such, having gods at a power level where they can be actually killed by the PCs is desirable for me on the basis of flavor and narrative. Besides, if you can't kill gods, how do you have the PCs fight against god-killing abominations of the likes of the Midgard Serpent and Fenrir? I like the idea of the PCs taking a crack at one of those. Of course, I think Thor is an appropriate character to model an epic level PC on.
> 
> As for the opening post, I have always hated the idea that gods draw power from their worshipers. To answer the main question though, I think gods are appropriate threats for characters in the upper end of the epic tier, and should primarily be elite or solo creatures.




Well, speaking of Midgard Serpent and Fenrir... I wouldn't. Seriously. I know that fighting gods and Elder Evils in their "True Forms" became fashionable once again in 3E, but even in the most Epic campaigns in my group, fighting deities (and seeing deities as "high-level mortals") has always felt alien and, well, silly. Avatars are another matter, so I agree with Shemeska on this one.

The rules for deities just didn't work in 3E, and I don't think 4E managed a better job in that regard. Of course, your opinion may vary.


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## arscott (Mar 14, 2009)

In the spirit of form follows function, I feel like these guys should be statted as appropriate to where we might see them used in a game.

WotC's choice of Level 35 Solo for Tiamat and Vecna are aimed at making these gods suitable for the last encounter of a campaign, which seems like a reasonable place.

Some gods should be less powerful than that, simply because we expect to fight them along with suitable minions.  It's hard to imagine facing Bane or Ioun in a five-on-one combat.  Either Lower the levels on such gods or make them elites to free up room in the XP budget for their allies.

Other Gods don't seem especially suited for that Ultimate encounter.  Torog and Bahamut, for example, are guardians of a sort, so I'd expect to fight them earlier in the epic tier, and then spend the rest of the campaign dealing with whatever it was that they were guarding in the first place.  So perhaps level 30 solo (with the aim of fighting them at 26th level)


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## Jhaelen (Mar 15, 2009)

*What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?*

Ah, that's an easy question 

Infinite, of course - all of them!


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## TarionzCousin (Mar 15, 2009)

In my campaign all of the gods are about 15th level, but they each have 100,000 times as many hit points as other 15th level monsters do. The PC's always get bored trying to kill them.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 15, 2009)

Hello again Shemeska! 



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> Again, that boils down to how precisely you define what a god or similar being actually is on a basic level in your own campaign setting.




Absolutely.



> It hasn't stopped me before. Imix and Kossuth just to pick a pair, both gain worship as 'gods of fire', and both openly claim to be just that. Assuming for the moment that they both are indeed gods of fire, and physically embody that concept -indeed -are- that concept itself- you might be right, except despite what they might claim, or their worshippers' believe, they're each embodying different aspects of the same concept.




So neither is (the ultimate expression of) 'Fire' itself. So you are not battling against a 'concept' anymore than you would be facing a fire elemental.



> Secondly, even if they embody the exact same concept like two deities created from the gestalt worship and belief of mortals on two different worlds on the material plane, I still see little reason to not allow one of them to exist, or have them be the same thing like you would imply. They might be the same concept, but the same concept as envisioned and viewed through the lens of devotion of two perhaps very different cultures.




But in universal terms neither would be 'fire' itself, thats the point I am making. You seem against the idea of slaying a god because you can't kill 'fire' (for example). But there may well be a dozen such beings linked to fire that are gods of fire, but not fire itself. So I am just wondering where and when it is you flip the switch to turn off the stats?



> Another example: demons being a physical manifestation of malignant chaos hasn't stopped the Abyss from being populated with an uncountable or infinite number of them.




Chaos does have a tendency to diversify.

However I am not sure what you are suggesting here, I doubt its that Demons should have no stats because they are the physical manifestations of malignant chaos.



> There's no limitation imposed at all like what you mentioned. It's a very different style than your own, but I've never come across anything restrictive or limiting (rather quite the opposite).




Did you know that 4E Gods have an accompanying sidebar that basically amounts to a handful of suggested stipulations PCs have to meet to even have a chance of (properly) defeating them?

Sounds a bit like what you suggested in your first post...albeit with stats after the PCs meet one or more stipulations.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 15, 2009)

Howdy Jhaelen! 



			
				Jhaelen said:
			
		

> *What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?*
> 
> Ah, that's an easy question
> 
> Infinite, of course - all of them!




Wizards (of the Coast) and I disagree with you.


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## Wombat (Mar 15, 2009)

I merely suggest that you refer to an earlier WotC publication -- _The Primal Order_


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## S'mon (Mar 15, 2009)

I guess weaker demigods should typically be something like 30th level elites?

BTW I can imagine in certain campaigns a god might be encountered at the Heroic tier as a 10th level Solo.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 16, 2009)

Wombat said:
			
		

> I merely suggest that you refer to an earlier WotC publication -- _The Primal Order_




Have it...good book.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 16, 2009)

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I guess weaker demigods should typically be something like 30th level elites?




As far as I can tell the whole thing is flexible along the following lines:

Solo 30 = Elite 35 (+5) = Standard 39 (+9) = Minion 47 (+17)

As for a rough hierarchy I'd suggest:

(Hero-deity = 17-21 Solo)
Quasi-deity = 22-26 Solo
Demi-deity = 27-31 Solo
Lesser Deity = 32-36 Solo
Greater Deity = 37-41 Solo

I'm thinking Avatars should maybe be ten levels lower, with Aspects 20 levels lower (adjusted for Elite/Standard/Minion as appropriate). Although the official rules don't abide by this (or any such method)*.

So for instance You could face Vecna (Solo 35) his Avatar(s) (Standard 34) and his Aspect(s) (Minion 32) in the same encounter.

*I think in the Monster Manual Orcus is Solo 33, but his Aspect is Elite 24, while in the Draconomicon, Tiamat (Solo 35) has a Solo 17 Aspect.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> BTW I can imagine in certain campaigns a god might be encountered at the Heroic tier as a 10th level Solo.




You could certainly have an Aspect of a Deity that was a 10th-level Solo encounter. Its a very flexible system.


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## Jack99 (Mar 16, 2009)

S'mon said:


> I guess weaker demigods should typically be something like 30th level elites?




I still think even demigods should keep the solo template. Aspects on the other hand are fine as elite (as they are).


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## CapnZapp (Mar 16, 2009)

> What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?



At least 10 levels higher than your player characters.


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## CapnZapp (Mar 16, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars.



This.

I would never consider the published stats to be that of the true god itself. 

That might work for campaign settings such as Forgotten Realms, where gods and epic adventurers routinely (well...) kill off troublesome gods and take their stuff (their portfolios).

The farthest I would be willing to stretch it is that while you can't fight a God, you can work to diminish its influence. Basically, reduce the faith and worship directed at it.

And it is here I can see a place for the Avatars (the level 35 monsters that WotC have statted up). Instead of spending decades converting the masses away from worshipping a certain god, it can be a more appropriate action for epic heroes to fight and defeat the god's avatar to acomplish the same thing.

The god won't be destroyed, but the defeat of the avatar could mean a serious blow to the faith of the populace, which pretty much amounts to the same thing. 



Of course, if or when WotC decide to publish an Immortals Tier Handbook (player character options for levels 31-40), they need to retcon the existing stats as not-quite-the-god anyway...


----------



## Klaus (Mar 16, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> If the system ends at level 30 for mortals,




Actually, by the time they reach 30th level, the PCs are very likely to be immortals themselves. You can even start a campaign after that where the new PCs worship the old PCs.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 16, 2009)

Hey CapnZapp! 



			
				CapnZapp said:
			
		

> The farthest I would be willing to stretch it is that while you can't fight a God, you can work to diminish its influence. Basically, reduce the faith and worship directed at it.
> 
> And it is here I can see a place for the Avatars (the level 35 monsters that WotC have statted up). Instead of spending decades converting the masses away from worshipping a certain god, it can be a more appropriate action for epic heroes to fight and defeat the god's avatar to acomplish the same thing.
> 
> *The god won't be destroyed, but the defeat of the avatar could mean a serious blow to the faith of the populace, which pretty much amounts to the same thing.*




If it amounts to the same thing as destroying a god then I don't really see much difference in allowing the god to be destroyed anyway.



			
				CapnZapp said:
			
		

> Of course, if or when WotC decide to publish an Immortals Tier Handbook (player character options for levels 31-40), they need to retcon the existing stats as not-quite-the-god anyway...




Not really...and for the record I do plan to release character options for Levels 31-50 (31-40 = Legendary Tier, 41-50 = Immortal Tier). I have ideas for up to 80th-level, but I don't think I'll be able to create enough monsters beyond 55th-level to make tiers beyond the Immortal Tier worthwhile.

The existing stats are perfectly fine as they are. When individual PCs are as powerful as Vecna or Tiamat (for example) then five of them won't see Vecna or Tiamat as anything more than a standard opponent (or about Level 44 I estimate). Chances are they will be facing Solo opponents more akin to Elder Gods and True Primordials at that juncture.


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## Jhaelen (Mar 16, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> Howdy Jhaelen!
> 
> Wizards (of the Coast) and I disagree with you.



Howdy Upper_Krust! 
Of course, I know that already - we've met before (well, virtually) discussing the very same topic in 3E. My opinion hasn't changed, and I don't get tired mentioning it whenever appropriate.

Imho, if a being deserves being called a 'God' it shouldn't be possible to be defeated by anything less than a 'God'. Otherwise it's just some incredibly powerful being that _aspires_ to become a 'God', like say, several of the top-tier demon/devil lords.

Maybe I just disagree on a semantic level...


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## CapnZapp (Mar 17, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> Maybe I just disagree on a semantic level...



Me too... To me a true god isn't just some dude with really cool moves and bolts and such.

It's more like a swirling cloud of sentience, existing everywhere at the same time.

You can't kill it, and you can't become it. (Not unless you give up your mortal - humanoid - form, and the petty desires that go with it, at least)

Thus I will treat any monster WotC calls a "god" it's favored avatar or something.

The only way to eradicate a god would be, by definition, to have 1) nobody believing in it and 2) nobody even knowing it existed.

A tall order to be sure, but nothing a group of Epic heroes can't accomplish, given a suitably long campaign arc! 

But most importantly: *you can't accomplish it simply by smashing its face in.*

That's so incredibly simplistic and debasing to the entire concept, in my honest opinion.

I do realize my vision isn't shared by WotC, however. As long as it remains easy to say "that wasn't the god you just offed, only its personal champion" I don't have much of a problem though.


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## Keveras (Mar 17, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> Well didn't an official source by WotC peg Moradin at 37th?




Moradin might be on lvl 38, according to Rich Baker. And according to Ari Marmell, who wrote the Bane article, Bane might be on lvl 38 or 39


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## S'mon (Mar 17, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> That's so incredibly simplistic and debasing to the entire concept, in my honest opinion.




Yet it's a lot closer to many real world mythologies than is your approach.  Myths don't present (eg) the Norse gods as anything like these omnipresent unkillable diffuse energy beings of yours.  Why should WotC?

That said, I have no problem with settings where gods never appear and their existence is moot, as in REH's Conan stories.  Or you could have a setting where gods only appear obliquely, through visions and auguries.  But there's tons of respectable precedent for the alternative.


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## Jhaelen (Mar 18, 2009)

S'mon said:


> Yet it's a lot closer to many real world mythologies than is your approach.  Myths don't present (eg) the Norse gods as anything like these omnipresent unkillable diffuse energy beings of yours.



Well, it's been ages since I read real world mythologies (though I did read a lot of them). Care to give me some examples of mortals slaying gods?


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## arscott (Mar 18, 2009)

Gugalanna, the sumerian Bull God, was slain by Gilgamesh and Enkidu.  Gilgamesh is described as a demigod, but Enkidu is fully mortal.

In general, there are few circumstances where a clearly-defined non-god has killed a clearly defined god, but much of that is because deific status is never as well defined in mythology as it is in D&D.  Real-life figures from greco-roman and egyptian history have laid claim to godhood.  On the opposite side of the spectrum, celtic mythology survives only through christian adaptaions, and the celtic dieties are described as mere historical figures.

What leads to the "deities can be slain by mortals" reasoning isn't so much mythological precident of actual deicide, but the mythological descriptions of gods and their powers.  Compare the abilities evidenced by a 30th-level Wizard to the abilities evidenced by the norse god Loki, and your Wizard ends up kicking ass.  Or consider the story of divine exploits that begins the Volsunga saga:  The dwarves Hreidmar, Fafnir, and Regin are enough of a threat to Odin, Loki, and Thor that they can compel the gods to pay a weregild.


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## Lurks-no-More (Mar 18, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> For my own purposes I have been using the followng guide to determine their power, though I am curious to hear what everyone else thinks about their levels.



For my 4e uses, I'd decouple the power of a god from the numbers of their followers. 

The idea that gods are powered by the faith of their worshippers, which began as a subversion of the older ideas, has become the de facto standard, so I think it deserves to be subverted right back. 

(And, as I think I've said before, it solves the question of who in their right mind would worship a being like Torog, granting them godhood: the King that Crawls _exists_, no matter how much you loathe and fear him, and you have to deal with that.)


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## S'mon (Mar 18, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> Well, it's been ages since I read real world mythologies (though I did read a lot of them). Care to give me some examples of mortals slaying gods?




Diomedes 'kills' Ares before the walls of Troy.  As the Greek gods are immortal, Ares respawns back on Olympus.

Normally it's deity kills deity, eg Loki getting Hodur to kill Balder.  Mortal killing deity is common in fantasy fiction, Moorcock's Eternal Champion does it a lot.


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## resistor (Mar 19, 2009)

I think what's most interesting about this thread is the attitude shift from ~5 years ago.

When Deities & Demigods came out for 3e, it was pretty soundly derided for "Why in the world would we want stats for gods!?"


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## Shemeska (Mar 19, 2009)

resistor said:


> I think what's most interesting about this thread is the attitude shift from ~5 years ago.
> 
> When Deities & Demigods came out for 3e, it was pretty soundly derided for "Why in the world would we want stats for gods!?"




This thread maybe. I don't know if there has been any major change in the gaming public at large though, or even here at Enworld. Sounds like time for a poll I think. I'd be honestly curious to see the result.


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## Mouseferatu (Mar 19, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> This thread maybe. I don't know if there has been any major change in the gaming public at large though, or even here at Enworld. Sounds like time for a poll I think. I'd be honestly curious to see the result.




Because we know how accurate those are. 

Trust me, there's a _huge_ demand for god stats, whether or not it shows on EN World. When my Bane article came out and _didn't_ include stats for Bane (since he's above 35th level, and I was told that we're not statting up gods higher than that), there was a _huge_ outcry on the WotC forums. Even though most people liked the article, a large number were upset that Bane's stats weren't included.


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## Kask (Mar 19, 2009)

Currently the gods in my campaign are from Greek mythology, thus unkillable even by other gods.  I assign them levels based on magic ability and what  not but, since they can't be killed it isn't that meaningful.


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## Fallen Seraph (Mar 19, 2009)

Well when my campaign does actually include Gods (that aren't say for example a machine) they usually are much weaker and more local then normal D&D Gods. As such in my campaigns, yeah, they definitely would have stats.

They are somewhat like Animism, where there are hundreds, thousands of them that reside over every thing in the natural world. They are generally more powerful their your average spirit but you could claim they are spirits.

It isn't uncommon for a God to be wandering the streets of a city for instance, or town or village. More likely then not near whatever aspect they reside over.

As far as power goes well it depends. When prepared I would say they would be the equivalent of around Level 30 (+ needing the plot-points to attack them), but when unaware, a simple dagger in the back could kill them. Now what this does to the aspect they reside over is up for grabs. They may be reborn to continue residing over it, the aspect may die off, berserk, etc.


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## Shemeska (Mar 19, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Trust me, there's a _huge_ demand for god stats, whether or not it shows on EN World. When my Bane article came out and _didn't_ include stats for Bane (since he's above 35th level, and I was told that we're not statting up gods higher than that), there was a _huge_ outcry on the WotC forums. Even though most people liked the article, a large number were upset that Bane's stats weren't included.




Yes, but that's the WotC forums we're talking about.


----------



## Jhaelen (Mar 19, 2009)

arscott said:


> Gugalanna, the sumerian Bull God, was slain by Gilgamesh and Enkidu.  Gilgamesh is described as a demigod, but Enkidu is fully mortal.
> 
> In general, there are few circumstances where a clearly-defined non-god has killed a clearly defined god, but much of that is because deific status is never as well defined in mythology as it is in D&D.  Real-life figures from greco-roman and egyptian history have laid claim to godhood.  On the opposite side of the spectrum, celtic mythology survives only through christian adaptaions, and the celtic dieties are described as mere historical figures.



Thanks for the example - I'll have to look up what actually happened there. 

I mainly asked in my previous post because I could only remember instances where demigods were involved.

Regarding your other examples: Now, killing someone _claiming_ to be a god is something I'm completely comfortable with 


arscott said:


> What leads to the "deities can be slain by mortals" reasoning isn't so much mythological precident of actual deicide, but the mythological descriptions of gods and their powers.  Compare the abilities evidenced by a 30th-level Wizard to the abilities evidenced by the norse god Loki, and your Wizard ends up kicking ass.  Or consider the story of divine exploits that begins the Volsunga saga:  The dwarves Hreidmar, Fafnir, and Regin are enough of a threat to Odin, Loki, and Thor that they can compel the gods to pay a weregild.



Well, yes, epic characters can do some awesome stuff, even in 4E. Most of them seem to be especially good at returning from the dead. However, that's something that is the archetypical hero quest, so it's not really indicative of god-like power. So I'm not convinced by that particular reasoning.


S'mon said:


> Diomedes 'kills' Ares before the walls of Troy.  As the Greek gods are immortal, Ares respawns back on Olympus.



Well, in D&D that would clearly have been an aspect of Ares. I'm fine with killing a god's aspect. It doesn't harm the god in any way. But actual killing, as in 'the god ceases to exist', doesn't happen in Greek mythology, as far as I remember. E.g. when the gods fought the titans, the titans were just eternally imprisoned.


S'mon said:


> Normally it's deity kills deity, eg Loki getting Hodur to kill Balder.  Mortal killing deity is common in fantasy fiction, Moorcock's Eternal Champion does it a lot.



I'm fine with gods killing gods, too. I just think characters shouldn't be able to do so.

Well, Moorcock's novels aren't real world mythology (though I admit they're inspired by it to a certain degree). Which gods are killed by which incarnation of the eternal champion?
Would you consider Arioch, Elric's patron demon lord to be a god? I'd say it's an example of, well, a demon lord.
I remember Corum fighting against the Fhoi Myore (sp?) but those would just be Fomorian Giants in D&D, not even close to gods.

Does anyone have any other ideas or examples from real world mythology?


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 19, 2009)

Howdy Lurks-no-More! 



			
				Lurks-no-More said:
			
		

> For my 4e uses, I'd decouple the power of a god from the numbers of their followers.
> 
> The idea that gods are powered by the faith of their worshippers, which began as a subversion of the older ideas, has become the de facto standard, so I think it deserves to be subverted right back.




It was never my standard but rather one of three options I presented in my *Immortals Handbook: Ascension* pdf.

*Power *- Quintessence through combat (Highlander style stealing a portion of another immortals power)
*Glory *- Quintessence through worship (Using an Event system to determine how much worship a particular event will give a particular character)
*Resonance *- Quintessence granted to a character from a supernatural source (another immortal via a pact, or some location imparting its power)

The total Quintessence determined your measure of divinity (which is added as a Divinity Template, Hero-deity Template, Demigod Template etc.).

I'm sure my 4E rules will be an extension of this.



> (And, as I think I've said before, it solves the question of who in their right mind would worship a being like Torog, granting them godhood: the King that Crawls _exists_, no matter how much you loathe and fear him, and you have to deal with that.)




Sometimes fear itself can be a form of worship, for instance Sailors might not worship a monstrous Sea Goddess, but in making some sort of acknowledgement to her (throwing a gold piece overboard in the hopes of gaining calm waters) she is thus empowered.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 19, 2009)

Hey there resistor! 



			
				resistor said:
			
		

> I think what's most interesting about this thread is the attitude shift from ~5 years ago.
> 
> When Deities & Demigods came out for 3e, it was pretty soundly derided for "Why in the world would we want stats for gods!?"




Soundly derided!? Perhaps by a vocal minority brought up on the back of 2nd Edition's lily-livered tomfoolery.

As I recall, when they first showed Tiamat's 3E stats in Dragon magazine everyone was pretty "kewl" about the whole thing.

3E did drop the ball on immortals by giving deities stats that:

A) Didn't use the epic rules
B) Set the deities too high so that their stats were basically irrelevant ~ or rather didn't give a staggered progression to divine power with demigods being the same level as greater gods (even if not the same divine rank)
C) Didn't give any functional rules for PC Immortals
D) Used the 3E rules - which get exponentially more intricate the higher you go

4E gods are far better handled.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 19, 2009)

Hey Mouseferatu! 



			
				Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Because we know how accurate those are.




Exactly. Even if you get 200 people voting against and 100 people voting for thats still 100 people that want to buy that sort of thing.



			
				Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Trust me, there's a _huge_ demand for god stats, whether or not it shows on EN World. When my Bane article came out and _didn't_ include stats for Bane (since he's above 35th level, and I was told that we're not statting up gods higher than that), there was a _huge_ outcry on the WotC forums. Even though most people liked the article, a large number were upset that Bane's stats weren't included.




I have to admit I was upset. I was close to subscribing until I heard there were no Bane stats.

I put a CR 9732 monster (Neutronium Golem) in my Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary. Not that I thought the monster would get used, simply that I thought it might be interesting to show people what was out there.

To this day I have only heard of one person using the golem in play...but everybody who read the book loved the monster. In a sense I think that crunch, even unused crunch can be interesting fluff in its own right.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 19, 2009)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Yes, but that's the WotC forums we're talking about.




Do the people over in that forum not know what they want Shemeska?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 19, 2009)

Hello Jhaelen! 



			
				Jhaelen said:
			
		

> I'm fine with gods killing gods, too. I just think characters shouldn't be able to do so.




So when characters are gods and/or demigods (As some epic 4E characters are) then you are okay with it. So in fact you are okay with Vecna's stats in 4E being Vecna the god, because Epic characters are in fact part divine themselves and thus not exactly mortal.



> Well, in D&D that would clearly have been an aspect of Ares.




Incorrect. I don't remember reading it was an Aspect or Avatar. If anything its clear it was Ares himself. The god.

Under 1E rules Ares (battling on Earth) would have been banished back to his home plane (Olympus).

Under 2E rules it presumably would have been Ares' Avatar. Thus an utterly futile gesture where Ares risks nothing.

Under 3E rules Diomedes would have needed to be about 50th-level to even beat Ares (or his Avatar). Which seems unlikely.

Under 4E rules it could easily be the God himself, who discorporates after being Bloodied and reforms on the Astral Plane (Mt. Olympus).


----------



## resistor (Mar 19, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> Soundly derided!? Perhaps by a vocal minority brought up on the back of 2nd Edition's lily-livered tomfoolery.




I can only base this on what I have observed, but in the time I've been reading D&D forums (since 2002 or so), this is the first thread I've seen where the net sentiment on god-stats was positive.

While there certainly were some people who spoke out in favor of Deities and Demigods, the _overall_ sentiment on it, in multiple threads of a span of years, seemed to be pretty constantly negative.  Whether this reflects an attitude shift in the overall population, I don't know.  But it's definitely a shift in the attitude around her.

Also, I'm not convinced it has anything to do with the mechanical implementation thereof.  I don't recall many people deriding Deities & Demigods for being clunky or complicated, but for being a bad concept.


----------



## Darkness (Mar 19, 2009)

resistor said:


> When Deities & Demigods came out for 3e, it was pretty soundly derided for "Why in the world would we want stats for gods!?"



For many of us, it wasn't quite that clear-cut. Rather, a combination of factors made the book a lot less useful than it could have been.

One, quantity (of stat blocks) was a big issue. The number of people who want a 'monster manual' of deities (which DDG came somewhat too close to) is likely much lower than the number of people who want rules for PC demigods/gods or to fight a god at the end of an adventure or campaign.

Two, stats for good deities are generally useful to fewer people than stats for evil deities. DDG had lots of them.

Three, the gods as statted in DDG just were too powerful to be very useful to a lot of groups. You'd have to be pretty epic to take on one of these gods and the ELH rules just weren't very good. (Besides, level 35 or whatever is pretty away far from 3.x's "sweet spot" in any case.) Now, you could have advanced the PCs by ascending them to demigod status rather than by having them attain epic levels - but as I recall, this route wasn't that well-supported either.

If the DDG (and ELH) had been better/more useful, more people would have defended it. Of course, a lot of critics wouldn't have vanished or anything even then; it's also a matter of taste, after all.


----------



## Bold or Stupid (Mar 19, 2009)

The Greek Gods didn't kill the Titans because they were family and if you kill family members you call the furies/erinyes down on your sorry ass. The Titans seized godhood by kill Uranus, their father (his death created the Furies, so no revenge).


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## Kask (Mar 19, 2009)

Bold or Stupid said:


> The Greek Gods didn't kill the Titans because they were family and if you kill family members you call the furies/erinyes down on your sorry ass. The Titans seized godhood by kill Uranus, their father (his death created the Furies, so no revenge).





Umm, no.  Reread the original myths as written by the Greek authors.  Uranus was castrate, not killed...


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## Shemeska (Mar 19, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> Do the people over in that forum not know what they want Shemeska?




I'm sure they know what they want, but if you missed my meaning above, what I meant was that I wouldn't exactly call the WotC forums a representative sample of D&D players, even of those players online.


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## Shemeska (Mar 19, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> Soundly derided!? Perhaps by a vocal minority brought up on the back of 2nd Edition's lily-livered tomfoolery.




As I recall from every thread prior to this one, 3e Deities and Demigods was soundly panned. I think it was up on the last poll as one of the worst/most useless books for 3e. And I also recall some rather amusing, if unflattering comments by at least one of the authors of subsequent books that used its rules on gods, and the precident for deity statblocks rather than more useful, detailed fluff (I want to say it was Mona talking about deity statblocks in 3e's Faiths and Pantheons).

Now I know that fully statted out deities are your thing. You're even crazier about them than I am about all things planar and fiendish, but I think you might be projecting your favored stance onto more people than might be warrented, given past discussions over the years on the topic.

Compare the generally posted opinion on 3e D&DG versus the 2e FR deity books. The former provides all the crunch you could want, and exceedingly slender flavor text. The latter provide avatar stats, tons of in-game history, details on their dogma, clergy, holidays, symbols, etc. The former was poorly received, and that reputation hasn't gotten much better. The latter is typically held up as the gold standard for sourcebooks on D&D deities.


----------



## Bold or Stupid (Mar 19, 2009)

Kask said:


> Umm, no.  Reread the original myths as written by the Greek authors.  Uranus was castrate, not killed...




Find me a translation of the original and I'll happily read it. 

All the versions I've read have the castration kill him.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 20, 2009)

Hey resistor! 



			
				resistor said:
			
		

> I can only base this on what I have observed, but in the time I've been reading D&D forums (since 2002 or so), this is the first thread I've seen where the net sentiment on god-stats was positive.
> 
> While there certainly were some people who spoke out in favor of Deities and Demigods, the _overall_ sentiment on it, in multiple threads of a span of years, seemed to be pretty constantly negative.  Whether this reflects an attitude shift in the overall population, I don't know.  But it's definitely a shift in the attitude around her.
> 
> Also, I'm not convinced it has anything to do with the mechanical implementation thereof.  I don't recall many people deriding Deities & Demigods for being clunky or complicated, but for being a bad concept.




Well I think you had two crowds involved debating 3E Deities. The 1st Edition crowd and the 2nd Edition crowd. Obviously those brought up on the latter were only interested in continuing the whole Avatar business perpetrated during 2nd Edition. Naturally the 2nd Edition crowd was fresher and bigger.

But now with the advent of 4th Edition we have those raised on 3rd Edition too, another Edition where deities were statted, badly statted yes, but statted nonetheless. 

So now you have the majority not necessarily in favor of stats for gods but certainly not openly against the idea - as the 2nd Edition crowd certainly were.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 20, 2009)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> I'm sure they know what they want, but if you missed my meaning above, what I meant was that I wouldn't exactly call the WotC forums a representative sample of D&D players, even of those players online.




Even though its by far the largest community online...and the official community...in your opinion they don't represent a good proportion of D&D players.

Can you further explain your reasoning here?


----------



## Kask (Mar 20, 2009)

Bold or Stupid said:


> Find me a translation of the original and I'll happily read it.
> 
> All the versions I've read have the castration kill him.





Google is your friend, or a college level ancient history course...


----------



## Shemeska (Mar 20, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> Can you further explain your reasoning here?




I base that on its reputation and the exodus of many people over the past year for a variety of reasons (who may or may not have been replaced with new folks, but site traffic from what I've been told would suggest otherwise).


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## Shemeska (Mar 20, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> But now with the advent of 4th Edition we have those raised on 3rd Edition too, another Edition where deities were statted, badly statted yes, but statted nonetheless.
> 
> So now you have the majority not necessarily in favor of stats for gods but certainly not openly against the idea - as the 2nd Edition crowd certainly were.




I think you're assuming a bit much in your approach's favor about those of us raised on 3rd edition. I was raised on 3e, and I greatly favor the 2e approach.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 20, 2009)

Hey Shemeska! 



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> As I recall from every thread prior to this one, 3e Deities and Demigods was soundly panned.




No one in this thread has said 3E D&Dg was good. But what we are saying is that 4E god stats are good - thats what this thread is saying.



> I think it was up on the last poll as one of the worst/most useless books for 3e.




So it was. I only gave it 3/10 in my online review and (as you know) there is no bigger proponent for God Stats than myself.

Immortality

But the fault wasn't that the book featured God stats - it was the way the God stats were featured...don't confuse the two.



> And I also recall some rather amusing, if unflattering comments by at least one of the authors of subsequent books that used its rules on gods, and the precident for deity statblocks rather than more useful, detailed fluff (I want to say it was Mona talking about deity statblocks in 3e's Faiths and Pantheons).




I remember that. 



> Now I know that fully statted out deities are your thing. You're even crazier about them than I am about all things planar and fiendish, but I think you might be projecting your favored stance onto more people than might be warrented, given past discussions over the years on the topic.




I don't think so. What we have is you projecting your stance by saying that Deity Stats are a bad thing - then using 3E D&Dg (a terrible book) as an example.

When the reality is, people have moved on...to 4th Edition (which is what this thread is about) which does feature God Stats very successfully. So successfully in fact that, as Mouseferatu pointed out, there were a large amount of people disappointed that he didn't include the full Bane stats in his Insider article.  



> Compare the generally posted opinion on 3e D&DG versus the 2e FR deity books. The former provides all the crunch you could want, and exceedingly slender flavor text. The latter provide avatar stats, tons of in-game history, details on their dogma, clergy, holidays, symbols, etc. The former was poorly received, and that reputation hasn't gotten much better. The latter is typically held up as the gold standard for sourcebooks on D&D deities.




Absolutely. 3E D&Dg = bad book (on gods or religions). 2E Faiths & Avatars = good book (on religions). 

4E to date has god stats in the Monster Manual (Orcus), Open Grave (Kyuss, Vecna), Manual of the Planes (Baphomet, Dispater, Graz'zt), Draconomicon (Tiamat), D&D Insider (Maglubiyet via the Bane Article) as well as the thus far detailed Primordials (of whom I'm not sure if they have Cults/Followers). All of these have been very well received by the community at large.


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## Kask (Mar 20, 2009)

The gods have been statted since 1st Ed.  I still have my original Deities & demigods, complete with Cthulhu gods, Fafhrd and the _Gray Mouser_, etc.  When were gods NOT statted in D&D?


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## arscott (Mar 21, 2009)

Planescape, basically.  (Hence Shemeska's devotion to non-statted gods)


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## Shemeska (Mar 21, 2009)

Kask said:


> The gods have been statted since 1st Ed.  I still have my original Deities & demigods, complete with Cthulhu gods, Fafhrd and the _Gray Mouser_, etc.  When were gods NOT statted in D&D?




2e generally treated deities as beyond the relevancy of stats, and provided stats only for their avatars (hence Krust's bit about 'lilly-livered 2e'). Planescape used this approach during the latter half of the edition, but it was there and used heavily, well prior to that point.


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## Quartz (Mar 21, 2009)

I have a slightly different take: when a 4e Demigod ascends, per the PHB he becomes a very minor deity, so the corrupted Primordials and weaker deities such as Vecna, an ascended mortal, are levels 31-40, and proper deities (Erathis etc) and Primordials are levels 41+.

In effect you're inventing two new 10-level tiers, maybe three if you remember the old Lesser / Intermediate / Greater god rankings. WotC's marketing department should have an evilgasm over that.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 22, 2009)

Hey there Quartz! 



			
				Quartz said:
			
		

> I have a slightly different take: when a 4e Demigod ascends, per the PHB he becomes a very minor deity, so the corrupted Primordials and weaker deities such as Vecna, an ascended mortal, are levels 31-40, and proper deities (Erathis etc) and Primordials are levels 41+.




I don't think ascended deities are necessarily weaker, as all power is relative.



> In effect you're inventing two new 10-level tiers, maybe three if you remember the old Lesser / Intermediate / Greater god rankings. WotC's marketing department should have an evilgasm over that.




At the moment what I have pencilled in is:

Hero-deity = Level 30

*Legendary Tier (Levels 31-40)*
Quasi-deity = Level 31-35
Demi-deity = Levels 36-40

*Immortal Tier (Levels 41-50)*
Lesser Deity = 41-45
Greater Deity = 46-50

Remember that NPC deities are adjusted as follows:

Solo = Standard -9
Elite = Standard -4
Standard = Standard (obviously)
Minion = Standard +8

Therefore if we take *Orcus *as an example:

Solo Level 33 opponent

equivalent to:

Elite Level 38 opponent
Standard Level 42 opponent (meaning Orcus is the equivalent of a Lesser God)
Minion Level 50 opponent

Or how about a *Balor *as an example:

Elite Level 27 opponent

equivalent to:

Solo Level 22
Standard Level 31 (meaning a Balor is a relatively low-level Quasi-deity)
Minion Level 39 

I have tiers going up to Level 80, but I don't believe I would be able to create enough monsters for six new tiers to make those tiers worthwhile. But I think I have enough for two new tiers. Naturally this will mean monsters up to 55th or maybe one or two levels higher being detailed.


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## Nymrohd (Mar 22, 2009)

I've liked the up until now statted gods and epic level threats of 4E. Mostly because 4E is capped at level 30 which means you cannot simply hope to overpower them. They are credible, deific threats to groups of the most accomplished of mortals (a group of level 30 adventurers). Honestly unless you use some broken mechanic from the CharOp boards you don't really have much a chance against any of them, even if you somehow manage to get them alone. And as with all 4E monster stats, the stat block only represents what a deity can do in fair combat. Nothing about what it can do in its own domain or what it can do offscreen.

About 4E ever allowing characters above level 30, god I hope not. Maybe I would like something like a Legendary Power book that allowed you to stay at level 30 and slowly gain additional benefits, like more powers per day or more feats, but allowing characters of levels higher than 30 would break all balance for me.

I can understand that anyone who had seen the D&D book would be appalled by the massive waste of space that 3E god stats was. Tons of unnecessary information that would take a day or two to actually interpret on how it works in combat. And as someone who played planescape during 2E i very much disliked the fact that the average deity could wtfpwn Demogorgon even inside Abysm. Deities certainly were statless in 2E but you could still encounter and interact with them meaningfully. And a couple of mortals did kill deities in 2E lore, always under special circumstances. They did not have stats, sure, but epic level play in 2E was very poorly developed anyway so noone could expect to actually face a deity in that ruleset.

I find that 4E are far closer to the statless deities of 2E than the statblock horrors of 3E. They are easy to interact with, impossible to be killed outside of special circumstances, and a terrifying challenge for the strongest of adventurers in the game.


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## Shemeska (Mar 23, 2009)

Nymrohd said:


> And as someone who played planescape during 2E i very much disliked the fact that the average deity could wtfpwn Demogorgon even inside Abysm.




They could? The strong implication for the deity versus archfiends scenario was that within their home planes, and especially so their own domains/layers, an archfiend would wtfpwn a deity (but not so outside of having home field advantage). There was a reason that gods generally stayed as far away from the Blood War (and fiendish politics in general) that they could.


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## Jhaelen (Mar 23, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> 4E to date has god stats in the Monster Manual (Orcus), Open Grave (Kyuss, Vecna), Manual of the Planes (Baphomet, Dispater, Graz'zt), Draconomicon (Tiamat), D&D Insider (Maglubiyet via the Bane Article) as well as the thus far detailed Primordials (of whom I'm not sure if they have Cults/Followers). All of these have been very well received by the community at large.



Humm? Wait a second. Maybe it's because I'm almost asleep right now, but about half of these aren't actually gods, are they?


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## Bold or Stupid (Mar 24, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> Humm? Wait a second. Maybe it's because I'm almost asleep right now, but about half of these aren't actually gods, are they?




Two of them are gods (Vecna and Tiamat) the others are Archukes of Hell, Demon Princes, and an Exarch. Plus Kyuss I have no idea how he classes (beyond icky).


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## Jhaelen (Mar 24, 2009)

Bold or Stupid said:


> Two of them are gods (Vecna and Tiamat) the others are Archukes of Hell, Demon Princes, and an Exarch. Plus Kyuss I have no idea how he classes (beyond icky).



Ah, okay, so I wasn't totally wrong. I think 'Maglubiyet' is also a racial god of ... bugbears, or something...

In 3E Vecna was the only core god that didn't exist in my campaign setting. Vecna was a mortal, right? How does ascending to godhood work, anyway? If I remember the backstory from MotP correctly, technically, the Raven Queen is an example for this, too.

Bahamut and Tiamat, well, to me they've always been just big dragons, not gods. I guess, that's where I deviated from the core assumptions. I mean, how does borrowing the name of a Babylonian deity turn a critter into a god?

Similarly, I'm bothered about using the term 'demigod' for the epic destiny in 4E. How can someone _become_ a demigod? I mean, you can't become a half-elf, either. You have to be born as one!

What are the qualities that define a god? Is being able to grant spells to followers important? In the Darksun setting the sorcerer kings were able to do this. In Ravenloft the Lords of a Realm were all-powerful within their realm (similar to Demon Princes and Archdukes of Hell). Does that make them gods? I don't think so. Is it simply the fact that they are worshipped by followers (or cultists)? That would make it quite easy to qualify as a god.

Let's look at some other systems:
- In Earthdawn there are no gods. There are passions, but they aren't worshipped like gods (though there are Questors dedicated to them which are granted certain powers). You cannot affect them in any way and they rarely (if ever) directly interfere with Namegivers.
- In Ars Magica there's the gods of the predominant real-world religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) which are all-powerful. And then there's the pagan gods of the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, German, etc. pantheons which are just powerful Faeries.

Ah, well, I think, I'm not getting anywhere here. I just don't like the idea of fighting (and killing) gods.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 24, 2009)

Howdy Nymrohd! 



			
				Nymrohd said:
			
		

> I've liked the up until now statted gods and epic level threats of 4E. Mostly because 4E is capped at level 30 which means you cannot simply hope to overpower them. They are credible, deific threats to groups of the most accomplished of mortals (a group of level 30 adventurers). Honestly unless you use some broken mechanic from the CharOp boards you don't really have much a chance against any of them, even if you somehow manage to get them alone.




Agreed. Certainly a solo opponent about 3 or more levels higher than the party level is going to be very tough indeed.



> And as with all 4E monster stats, the stat block only represents what a deity can do in fair combat. Nothing about what it can do in its own domain or what it can do offscreen.




Exactly, although I suspect most DMs will set the encounter up so the PCs can win, if indeed the encounter is played at all.



> About 4E ever allowing characters above level 30, god I hope not. Maybe I would like something like a Legendary Power book that allowed you to stay at level 30 and slowly gain additional benefits, like more powers per day or more feats, but allowing characters of levels higher than 30 would break all balance for me.




Not sure it would break balance, but I totally get what you are saying. With PCs capped at 30 they can't just roll over the top of gods by virtue of being higher level.

Of course that doesn't really deter me from instigating two new tiers. Primarily because the PCs will themselves be gods, so its not that big a deal to have a group of gods defeat another god. But secondly because I'll have the same dynamic at Level 50 when the Greater God PCs are taking on Overgods and the oldest Primordials who are Level 51+, whom they won't simply be able to go 'over the top' on from levels alone.



> I can understand that anyone who had seen the D&D book would be appalled by the massive waste of space that 3E god stats was. Tons of unnecessary information that would take a day or two to actually interpret on how it works in combat.




The stat blocks were a complete bland overload.



> And as someone who played planescape during 2E i very much disliked the fact that the average deity could wtfpwn Demogorgon even inside Abysm. Deities certainly were statless in 2E but you could still encounter and interact with them meaningfully. And a couple of mortals did kill deities in 2E lore, always under special circumstances. They did not have stats, sure, but epic level play in 2E was very poorly developed anyway so noone could expect to actually face a deity in that ruleset.




I like the idea that all power is relative. Thats why I never liked the 'well because hes a god' excuse.



> I find that 4E are far closer to the statless deities of 2E than the statblock horrors of 3E. They are easy to interact with, impossible to be killed outside of special circumstances, and a terrifying challenge for the strongest of adventurers in the game.




Try telling that to Shemeska though.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 24, 2009)

Howdy Jhaelen! 



			
				Jhaelen said:
			
		

> Humm? Wait a second. Maybe it's because I'm almost asleep right now, but about half of these aren't actually gods, are they?




Depends on your definition of a 'god'. To me its any being with a body of mortal worshippers. Note that Orcus, Graz'zt, Baphomet and Tiamat all have cults/cultists referenced and detailed.


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## Quartz (Mar 24, 2009)

Upper_Krust said:


> I don't think ascended deities are necessarily weaker, as all power is relative.




True, but they allegedly _start off_ as being considerably weaker.





> At the moment what I have pencilled in is:
> 
> Hero-deity = Level 30
> 
> ...




If you're separating them out like that, you might as well turn each into a 10-level tier with its own path.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 25, 2009)

Hey there Quartz! 



			
				Quartz said:
			
		

> True, but they allegedly _start off_ as being considerably weaker.




That might depend on the events that lead to them becoming immortal in the first place. For instance it seems as though the Raven Queen (an ascended mortal) is in a significant position of power after relatively little time.



> If you're separating them out like that, you might as well turn each into a 10-level tier with its own path.




Well, that wouldn't gel with the core rules, whereby we see Demon Princes are in the high 20's/low 30's. Lesser Gods are in the mid 30's and Greater Gods presumably in the high 30's.

Additionally, the more tiers you have the more monsters you need to make each tier worthwhile (and 4E requires A LOT of monsters). I think I have enough to make two tiers worthwhile, but probably not more than that.


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## Shazman (Mar 25, 2009)

They're gods.  They shouldn't have levels.  Their avatars or aspects, maybe.  The gods are gods. They aren't meant to be killed and have their stuff taken like some random monster.  This concept of having to fight everything you see is overwhelming prevalent in 4E and is just plain silly.


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## Wolfwood2 (Mar 25, 2009)

It's my opinion that there's no point in statting out any god higher than mid-thirties.  Past that point, PCs can't possibly defeat them, so why do you need stats?

Sure there's the epic quest to get some thingamajiggie to reduce them in power enough that you can take them on option.  (Which some DMs may consider mandatory for any divine level being.)  If that's the case though, you still only need the mid-thirties stats with an asterisk saying that this can be considered the god after they have been depowered enough under the appropriate quest/circumstance to fight.



Shazman said:


> They're gods. They shouldn't have levels. Their avatars or aspects, maybe. The gods are gods. They aren't meant to be killed and have their stuff taken like some random monster. This concept of having to fight everything you see is overwhelming prevalent in 4E and is just plain silly.




Come, the debate on whether gods should be fightable has raged under every edition of D&D.  Don't act like this is some 4E thing.  As always, every DM has their own opinion and either option is perfectly reasonable.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 25, 2009)

Hey there Wolfwood2! 



			
				Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> It's my opinion that there's no point in statting out any god higher than mid-thirties.  Past that point, PCs can't possibly defeat them, so why do you need stats?




Well you are missing the obvious. I'm working on some books that add two new tiers (for immortals) allowing players to get to Level 50.



> Sure there's the epic quest to get some thingamajiggie to reduce them in power enough that you can take them on option.  (Which some DMs may consider mandatory for any divine level being.)  If that's the case though, you still only need the mid-thirties stats with an asterisk saying that this can be considered the god after they have been depowered enough under the appropriate quest/circumstance to fight.




Indeed.



> Come, the debate on whether gods should be fightable has raged under every edition of D&D.  Don't act like this is some 4E thing.  As always, every DM has their own opinion and either option is perfectly reasonable.




I think the key thing now though is that God stats in 4E really work very successfully.


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## ilikepie (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm new to the forums- in fact I just joined when I saw this topic...

The answer to this question is 31.

That's right. Demigod is an epic destiny starting at players level 21, so demi-gods would be like players, limited to level 30. Like the example of Orcus shows, while demons and such can be immensely powerful, they are material creatures and should also be constricted to level 30. Anything that is physical is confined to level 30 because no matter how much experience they gain, they cannot level up further. Gods are beyond physical beings and more powerful. Which is why they are all level 31.

Depending on your campaign setting, of course, gods could either be irrelevant or beings that walk the earth, or somewhere in between. My setting is based heavily on a diverse pantheon of gods and the idea they affect almost everything in the world. Regardless, they aren't physical creatures, so they are level 31. Some gods may be more powerful than others, but they're all gods, and in my games, that means they are all roughly equals. Though it depends on your campaign setting, I personally think that the basic level for the basic gods in the basic setting is 31.


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## Inyssius (Jun 9, 2009)

ilikepie said:


> Though it depends on your campaign setting, I personally think that the basic level for the basic gods in the basic setting is 31.




...except for Tiamat, at level 35? And Vecna, at level 35? And Maglubiyet, at level 32? 

I'm pretty sure I've misunderstood your meaning.


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## ilikepie (Jun 12, 2009)

I never new Vecna was level 35. I'm just saying what's the point of giving a whole new tier exclusively for gods?


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## pippenainteasy (Oct 11, 2011)

The worshiper requirements here exceed the population of Faerun lol.

I know everyone here talks about "multi-spheric deities" but is that concept even acknowledged by WoTC? I was the impression that the "Corellon/Bane/Moradin" of different settings are just recycled gods (but meant to be distinctly separate entities, i.e. core moradin and FR moradin are different gods altogether) and not actually meant to be the same being that occupies multiple spheres.


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## S'mon (Oct 12, 2011)

pippenainteasy said:


> The worshiper requirements here exceed the population of Faerun lol.
> 
> I know everyone here talks about "multi-spheric deities" but is that concept even acknowledged by WoTC? I was the impression that the "Corellon/Bane/Moradin" of different settings are just recycled gods (but meant to be distinctly separate entities, i.e. core moradin and FR moradin are different gods altogether) and not actually meant to be the same being that occupies multiple spheres.




Nice thread necromancy - just got through rereading the whole thing! 

I address your point about different versions of the same god in different settings here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=252348&page=2#post4710334

With the benefit of more experience of 4e, I now know that as you say 4e does indeed take the Moocockian approach; the Bane of Forgotten Realms is not the same entity as the Bane of the core D&D world, and the death of one does not affect the other.

Re big populations of worshippers - in my core homebrew D&D campaign setting Ea, the same god can be worshipped on dozens of linked planes, allowing them to rack up very high Worship Point tallies.  My player Upper_Krust adapted and expanded by WP system for his published 3e products, so that's what he's going with.  Recently though I've been using dissasociated settings - killing Bane in my Forgotten Realms campaign would not kill Bane in my concurrent Wilderlands campaign, though I might well have an 'echo' of that defeat affect the Wilderlands version.  Likewise Bane in my FR campaign is a very major deity, whereas in my Wilderlands game he's a relatively obscure deity of the dead Nerathi Empire.  Zehir-Seth appears in both though as the evil god of snakes, magic and necromancy.


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## pippenainteasy (Oct 13, 2011)

Back on topic, do you think it's kind of odd Lolth (a greater deity) is Level 35, while both Vecna and Tiamat (also Level 35) are lesser deities? And Bahamut is either lesser or intermediate, yet he's Level 36.

Is there only a limited relationship between combat capability and worshiper base?


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## S'mon (Oct 13, 2011)

pippenainteasy said:


> Back on topic, do you think it's kind of odd Lolth (a greater deity) is Level 35, while both Vecna and Tiamat (also Level 35) are lesser deities? And Bahamut is either lesser or intermediate, yet he's Level 36.
> 
> Is there only a limited relationship between combat capability and worshiper base?




I think the odd thing there is Lolth being 'Greater', she was only a lesser goddess bumped up demon princess in 1e.  But yes I don't think combat threat level should be directly determined by worshipper base - Aphrodite is a powerful goddess but not a powerful combatant.  Maybe demons like Lolth, Orcus etc are unusually dangerous combatants, that would seem reasonable.

BTW if a 30th level PC is a Demigod, that implies an equivalent NPC demigod would be a 30th level Elite, which is equivalent to a 25th level Solo.  However I just statted out the God Emperor Hatulin Seiheitt, demigod or hero deity exarch of Natch Ur, god of the deep earth, as a 30th level Solo.  In the 3e Wilderlands stats he's listed as 50th level, so that's actually a comedown for him!  

The God-Emperor Hatulin Seiheitt	Level 30 Solo Controller (Leader)
Medium natural humanoid	XP 95,000
Initiative +24		Senses Perception +23; darkvision
Vigour of Natch Ur aura 5; allies who start their turn within the area gain 15 temporary hit points.
HP 554; Bloodied 277
AC 44; Fortitude 41; Reflex 41; Will 44
Immune fear; Resist 15 acid, 20 poison, 20 radiant
Saving Throws +5 
Speed 7 , Swim 6 
Action Points 2
 Indomitability of the Gods (no action; at-will) 
Haulin may save against any and all effects upon him which include Daze/Stun/Dominate at the beginning of his turn (at +5 for being a Solo), but after any ongoing damage has been taken.  He makes a single save to eliminate all such effects.  He saves normally at the end of his turn.  
 Vicious Harrier (at-will) 
If Hatulin  and an ally are both adjacent to the same enemy, that enemy grants combat advantage to them even if they are not flanking.
R Iron Gaze (minor; at-will) • Charm, Fear
Ranged 10; +33 vs Will; 3d8 + 24 psychic damage, and the target is stunned (save ends). 
m Ebon Mace of Natch Ur +6 (standard; at-will) • Fear, Weapon
Reach 2; +35 vs AC; 4d8 + 20 damage (crit 19-20 6d8+52), plus the target is pushed 2 and knocked prone.
A Cthonic Tentacles of the Deep Earth (standard; recharge 4 5 6) • Divine
Area burst 2 within 20; +33 vs Fortitude; 4d6 + 24 damage, and each target is restrained until the end of Hatulin's next turn.
A Invocation of Natch Ur (standard; recharge 3 4 5 6) • Psychic
Area burst 2 within 20; +33 vs Will; 4d6 + 24 psychic damage, and ongoing 20 psychic damage (save ends)
C Inspiration (minor 1/turn; at-will) 
Close burst 20; one ally in the burst can shift-1 and make an immediate basic melee attack against a target in its reach; for that attack, if the target is immobilized (including stunned or restrained), the ally gains a +15 bonus to damage rolls and deals a critical hit on a roll of 16–20
C Divine Inspiration (minor; encounter) 
Close burst 10; all allies in the burst gains a +15 bonus to damage rolls and deal a critical hit on a roll of 16–20, until the end of Hatulin’s next turn. (This bonus damage does not stack with Inspiration.)
Alignment Evil	Languages Common, Goblin, Primordial, Supernal
Skills Athletics +30, Intimidate +29, Religion +28
Str 31 (+25)	Dex 28 (+24)	Wis 26 (+23)
Con 29 (+24)	Int 27 (+23)	Cha 28 (+24)


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## pippenainteasy (Oct 13, 2011)

I was just thinking, in 3E, Deities & Demigods, there was a clear connection between your deity rank and level.

An overdeity (like Taiia) was DvR20, greater gods (Corellion and Moradin) were ~DvR17-19, Intermediates (like Lolth) were ~DvR 14-16, and Lesser Deities were ~DvR10-12.



S'mon said:


> The God-Emperor Hatulin Seiheitt    Level 30 Solo Controller (Leader)
> HP 554; Bloodied 277




Shouldn't he have twice as many hit points?


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## S'mon (Oct 13, 2011)

pippenainteasy said:


> I was just thinking, in 3E, Deities & Demigods, there was a clear connection between your deity rank and level.
> 
> An overdeity (like Taiia) was DvR20, greater gods (Corellion and Moradin) were ~DvR17-19, Intermediates (like Lolth) were ~DvR 14-16, and Lesser Deities were ~DvR10-12.
> 
> Shouldn't he have twice as many hit points?




I halve all monster hps IMCs.  4e works much better that way.  

'Divine Rank' is a more incremental version of demi/lesser/intermediate/greater.  You can tie it closely to CR/level, but don't have to.


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## RainOfSteel (Oct 15, 2011)

In my opinion, of course:

Whether "the gods" can even be challenged, or even understood, by mortals is established at the time of milieu creation.

If they cannot be challenged, they tend to be the type that do not personally appear, or do so only rarely or in forms that are either invulnerable or of too great a size to even engage.

Level is irrelevant in these cases.  There is nothing the characters can do.  Such appearances, if they even occur, tend to be accompanied by great radiating levels of charismatic and magical power that absolutely overwhelm all senses, no matter what type of protections are in place.  They are the presence of power beyond power beyond fate and time.  What they desire will happen.  Is your character's level 1,000,000,000,000?  Too bad, you lose.

I tend to want to run such powers as remote with control held by church officials to make religious situations more human.  If only you can get good men in control, you can get good religion.  Fail this, and evil will beset you.  It also allows the overarching power, if it so chooses, to set up confrontational sects against those it has felt have fallen.

Then there is the next level down.  Tremendously powerful gods that have avatars that appear in the mortal world.  These avatars have mortal levels and can be challenged by mortals.  Each avatar "takes up" a certain amount of divine power to create and so there is a limit on how many can be running around, especially linked to the base power tier of the deity involved.  These types tend to fit most of what is presented such as in Planescape (to me) and many similar products.  It is possible to go find these gods, meet and interact with them, be manipulated, and manipulate in return (if you're smart enough).

Hurting these beings is not always a smart idea, as their "over core" (or whatever you call it) has a long memory.  If a demon prince is defeated in one slice (or slice group) of the Prime Material and cannot return there for 100-10,000 or whatever year penalty, then it may tend to try and retaliate indirectly by manipulating (or forcing) others to take up the role of vengeance.  If the demon can do as, as some GMs may choose to impose absolute penalties against any type of retaliation due to the defeat, the "no power expenditure possible" option as a true reward for victory.  But watch out after that as descendants are attacked and worlds smashed.  (Ooh, a new campaign.)

To actually create a dead god with this set up, then to me one must eliminate all extant avatars, cutting the over core off from most of reality.  (Or however you structure it.)  This is a beyond epic task.  Kill off Orcus?  Good luck with that.

Then there are the type of gods that have only one divine existence, and if they can be slain, that is it.  The Greek Gods may have been like this.  David Eddings gods in the Elenium where like this.  When 



Spoiler



Azash is slain the other gods all go into deep mourning when their most evil member of all and ever dies and the rest are forced to face the unpleasant realization of their own mortality despite their immense power.



The key to this is making sure you know what kind of gods yours are, and where they sit.

In the middle, with the avatar system, their "mortal facing" construct can be whatever level is appropriate for your current players to go against.

The top level is simply impossible.  The bottom level is very difficult to manage given that presets can easily be overun, unless you intend to allow floating presets that actualize only when encountered.  This is why I tend not to use it much when I tinker with milieus.


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## pippenainteasy (Oct 15, 2011)

The D&D gods aren't monotheistic universal gods, for the most part their power is secluded to a very small region and have a fairly limited number of worshipers (just look at how many "gods" are in Faerun). A greater god in D&D has the worshipper base of maybe the city of San Francisco (if even).

There's no reason for them to "untouchable"; in reality they are nothing more than "the boss of Texas" or some such.


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## prosfilaes (Oct 15, 2011)

pippenainteasy said:


> The D&D gods aren't monotheistic universal gods, for the most part their power is secluded to a very small region and have a fairly limited number of worshipers




On the flip side, real polytheistic gods tended to have all the population in the area worship them. Everyone in Greece propitiated Hestia when the time was right. In D&D, the same man who openly and honestly worshiped Saint Cuthbert during the day might offer a sacrifice to Vecna at night to cover up the fact he slept with his neighbor's daughter.


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