# Question about Storm of vengeance



## Tar-Edhel (Mar 2, 2003)

The spell reads: If you continue to concentrate, the spell generates addtionnal effects in each following round.

We first thought that you applied the effects separately. First round deafening, second round acid, etc.

But our cleric is arguing that 'generates additional effects' means that those effects stacks as they appear.

First round: deafening, second round: deafening and acid, third round: lightning, deafenng and acid, etc

I think the spell is powerful even if the effects don't stack. The lightning bolts alone can deal 60d6 and the AoE is huge 360' radius.

But I'd like to know how you guys understand it. 

Thanks


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## Dr. Zoom (Mar 2, 2003)

IMO, the spell would be very specific if the effects stacked each round.  I understand the cleric's argument with the word "additional," but I don't think that was the intent of the spell, just a poor choice of words.  

The best guideline for these types of arguments is that you only get what the spell says you get, nothing more.  Don't try to hinge a questionable interpretation on an ambiguous word or vague sentence.  That should keep you from inflating a spell's power.


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## Berk (Mar 2, 2003)

I always played it as in addition to. Course that was my own interrpritation of the spell. To me the spell would seem kinda dinky if ya didn't get the acid rain every round of it and such. I think it makes the spell a bit more on par with other powerful 9th level spells that way. I mean yeah sure the range is huge and everything but look at the casting time!


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## Saeviomagy (Mar 2, 2003)

Berk - the spell already does some 66d6 of damage over  4 rounds. Your ruling bumps it up to some 103d6 damage over 10 rounds (plus all the additional effects).

My point of view - it's a bit much for a cleric spell already.  A full round of casting's primary disadvantage is that you could miss with it. When the spell has a radius of 360 feet, that suddenly becomes a lot less likely.

Simply put, it's one of the 9th level spells that emphasises what is supposed to be a wizard speciality - destruction. Why does it exist? Why doesn't a wizard get equivalent spells which emphasise a cleric's speciality? Why on earth isn't it on the druid list?


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## Super_Troll (Mar 3, 2003)

I agree with Saeviomagy. This spell may not be the best of the 9th level ones when it comes to single/small combat. But it will devestate a large group. I would not allow the effects to stack each round.


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## Berk (Mar 3, 2003)

> My point of view - it's a bit much for a cleric spell already. A full round of casting's primary disadvantage is that you could miss with it. When the spell has a radius of 360 feet, that suddenly becomes a lot less likely.




And getting out of a 360' radius is hard how? Especially when you have several rounds before anything anywhere near bad happens. If people wanna be silly and stay within the radius of the effect then let them get destroyed. Everything doesn't happen at once. First some thunder. Then some very little hurtfull rain with the thunder. If you aren't seeking sturdy shelter or running for your life by now then you deserve to get hit by every lightning bolt.



> I agree with Saeviomagy. This spell may not be the best of the 9th level ones when it comes to single/small combat. But it will devestate a large group. I would not allow the effects to stack each round.




A large group that doesn't move? And yes I am sure if your 17th+ level cleric is gonna start casting StoV on a large group like oh say an army I am sure the effects won't get past the 2nd round, 3rd if the cleric is really lucky.


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## Celebrim (Mar 3, 2003)

The Dungeon magazine which featured the first published Epic Level module (someone help me out with number and title) had a very extensive discussion of the effects of Storm of Vengence, and if I remember correctly, the effects stacked.


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## Shard O'Glase (Mar 3, 2003)

Berk said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And getting out of a 360' radius is hard how? Especially when you have several rounds before anything anywhere near bad happens. If people wanna be silly and stay within the radius of the effect then let them get destroyed. Everything doesn't happen at once. First some thunder. Then some very little hurtfull rain with the thunder. If you aren't seeking sturdy shelter or running for your life by now then you deserve to get hit by every lightning bolt.
> 
> ...




Depends on the group.  An army couldn't move effectively out of the area of effect asuming they recognized the spell and knew to start moving before the 2nd round.  And even then if they don't regognize the spell they might go with somethign like raising there shields above there heads to try and protect themselves from the effects.

And also I really wouldn't expect the cleric to get interupted. 

3 spells, spell resistance, anit-life circle, windwall. Once those are up the cleric is a virtually immune firing platform.  Is it possible to get through to the cleric sure.  Just really freakin difficult if your even when a really high level spellcaster.


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## Berk (Mar 3, 2003)

> Depends on the group. An army couldn't move effectively out of the area of effect asuming they recognized the spell and knew to start moving before the 2nd round. And even then if they don't regognize the spell they might go with somethign like raising there shields above there heads to try and protect themselves from the effects.
> 
> And also I really wouldn't expect the cleric to get interupted.
> 
> 3 spells, spell resistance, anit-life circle, windwall. Once those are up the cleric is a virtually immune firing platform. Is it possible to get through to the cleric sure. Just really freakin difficult if your even when a really high level spellcaster.




Completely circumstantial. Any army that lets someone get close enough to cast the spell is foolish.

And as for the spells the cleric would put up. Greater dispelling. Hell, even that on the StoV would work. You would figure an army to be prepared for such things. I mean if 17th+ level clerics are walking around trying to destroy armies the armies gotta have some kind of protection in the way of magic like oh say, either a high level cleric or mage themselves. I mean, something has to be up when it starts to rain acid. So like I said if the cleric is lucky, 3 rounds will go by before either the spell is dispelled or the cleric is interrupted.


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## Shard O'Glase (Mar 3, 2003)

They might have greater dispelling, but they might not have a  good enough one to deal with a 17+caster.  Perpared for spells is one thing prepared for 9th level spells is entirely another.


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## Berk (Mar 3, 2003)

> They might have greater dispelling, but they might not have a good enough one to deal with a 17+caster. Perpared for spells is one thing prepared for 9th level spells is entirely another.




Even regular dispel magic would work if cqast by a 10th+ level unless the cleric casting StoV was 20th+ level. I am sure there will be tons of scrolls high level and mid of not only dispel but greater dispel also throughout the army. Not to mention wizards and clerics who most likely have either or both spells prepared also. It's a fantasy world and campaign. Who would have an army without magical support? It's called an army for a reason. To think that one 9th level spell can take out an entire army is silly. Also to think that an army would only take up 720' diameter encampment is kinda silly.


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## Shard O'Glase (Mar 3, 2003)

Berk said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Even regular dispel magic would work if cqast by a 10th+ level unless the cleric casting StoV was 20th+ level. I am sure there will be tons of scrolls high level and mid of not only dispel but greater dispel also throughout the army. Not to mention wizards and clerics who most likely have either or both spells prepared also. It's a fantasy world and campaign. Who would have an army without magical support? It's called an army for a reason. To think that one 9th level spell can take out an entire army is silly. Also to think that an army would only take up 720' diameter encampment is kinda silly. *




I think you and I are visualizing two entirely different styles of army.


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## Berk (Mar 3, 2003)

> I think you and I are visualizing two entirely different styles of army.




Maybe we are, but I can't envision any army in a fantasy campaign that has magick in it to not include magickal support.


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## wolff96 (Mar 3, 2003)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> *The Dungeon magazine which featured the first published Epic Level module (someone help me out with number and title) had a very extensive discussion of the effects of Storm of Vengence, and if I remember correctly, the effects stacked. *




You are correct.  The effects did stack in the Dungeon adventure explanation of the spell.

And really, they have to do so.

When you're in a fight where you think 9th level spells are appropriate, do you really think someone is going to concentrate and maintain the spell from rounds 5 through 10 if all they get is some concealment and winds?? Heck, no!  They're going to be tossing out all their other high level spells.

Personally, I think it's a bit overpowered, but the spell is ridiculously underpowered for the majority of its duration if the effects do not stack.


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## Stalker0 (Mar 3, 2003)

Considering we all know how short high level combats tend to be, you should definately get some serious bang for your buck with those later rounds of SOV.


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## Shard O'Glase (Mar 3, 2003)

Berk said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Maybe we are, but I can't envision any army in a fantasy campaign that has magick in it to not include magickal support. *




I agree with magical support, but I don't see most armies having the magical support to deal with 9th level spells with a good deal of success.

I see most armies be controlled by minor lords, reasonably powerful warriors who've established a kingdom etc.  With anywhere from a few hundred to 1,000 solders in the army.  They'd ahve a decent number of low level spellcaster like 10-50 1-5th level spellcasters, and maybe a 10-12th level magical comander.

Then their are ARMIES, these are vast legions found in a empire, or large country, probably base number around 10,000 with spellcasters the spellcasting commander being probably aorund 15th level.


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## The Proconsul (Mar 3, 2003)

On the other hand, a high-level party probably faces enemies who are high level too, don't they? And if a minor lord with a few hundered soldiers enrages the PCs, it's really his fault...


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## Saeviomagy (Mar 3, 2003)

Berk - just a point. The spell has a 400+40ft/level range.

At 17th level, that puts it at 1000+ feet of range.

Now - how many armies are going to be capable of detecting a lone individual at 1000+feet? Or forming effective tactics to deal with him when they've just become deafened?


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## Super_Troll (Mar 3, 2003)

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I agree with Saeviomagy. This spell may not be the best of the 9th level ones when it comes to single/small combat. But it will devestate a large group. I would not allow the effects to stack each round.
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A large group that doesn't move? And yes I am sure if your 17th+ level cleric is gonna start casting StoV on a large group like oh say an army I am sure the effects won't get past the 2nd round, 3rd if the cleric is really lucky.
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Everyone is assuming the target CAN move. How about using this spell against a town. "Fire and Brimstone" type stuff. See that evil temple of Set...no, that's right...I just smashed it into the ground!


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## Destil (Mar 4, 2003)

1d4+1 Huge air elementals that stick around for 17+ rounds could reak similar havoc on a large number of low level creatures with their wirlwind attack. How well a 9th level spell can devistate a large number of low level creatures is completly moot. Unless you're talking about how the extistance of such magic will affect the world at large, this is a non-issue, really (and a 4x enlarged cone of cold cast from an extreme height by a flying wizard is expetonaily more devistating to an army of low levels, anyway. Nevermind that it's a standard action to cast, or that as a full round action a sorcerer can do it again and again and again).

Now, clearly the wording of the spell means that the effects 'stack' in the later rounds. "additional effects" means just that: *additional* effects. For instance: _Acid fog_ "In addition to slowinf creatures down and obscuring sight .... the fog dealas 2d6 points of acid damage" clearly, both take effect. Likewise _True Strike_ "Your next single attack roll gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionaly you are not affected by the miss chance..." Again, each casting of the spell grants both benifits, not just one or the other. Thus _Storm of Vengence_ provides all of the previous effects on every round, otherwise it would be simply listed as "effects" not "additional effects".


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## Saeviomagy (Mar 4, 2003)

Which means that it deafens in addition to doing each of the listed effects for a single round.

Badly worded, but I'm perfectly willing to bow to the logic concerning the dungeon adventure - ie, it wasn't changed or erratad, so it's probably right.


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## Berk (Mar 4, 2003)

> Everyone is assuming the target CAN move. How about using this spell against a town. "Fire and Brimstone" type stuff. See that evil temple of Set...no, that's right...I just smashed it into the ground!




There is a problem if-

1. The temple is protected from things like this with various energy immunity spells.

2. The temple only has 1st-5th level casters, in effect not really making it a temple but more of a shrine.

3. Oh hey look, any other spell that deals damage could potentially have the same effects. 

4. Not to mention oh say gate or the elemental swarm spells.

5. Come to think about it, meteor swarm is pretty nice for taking out a building also, and look, that's 9th level. Actually, make that a city block. 

6. Ooooo, delayed blast fireball works good also. Now there's an idea, at 17th level my delayed blast fireballs will be doing oh 17d8 damage, cast 5 of those around stationary objects and that is 85d8 damage as they all go off at the same time. Better damage for less time!!!!! 

The only advantage for StoV is the area of effect, but even that isn't anywhere near a big decent advantage. Sure it could level a village or the power center of a small city but ummm, why in the world are 17th+ level characters doing this to small cities and villages? If there is a threat there then the threat should be able to deal with it. I mean if something can threaten a 17th+ group of adventurers or heck, even a cleric of that level then it sure as hell better be able to deal with it. Common sense people. Use it, please. 



> Berk - just a point. The spell has a 400+40ft/level range.
> 
> At 17th level, that puts it at 1000+ feet of range.
> 
> Now - how many armies are going to be capable of detecting a lone individual at 1000+feet? Or forming effective tactics to deal with him when they've just become deafened?




Any army worth their weight in lead should have scouting and patrolling in atleast a half mile radius around their encampment. Especially with the knowledge of long range spells being in existance.


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## Shard O'Glase (Mar 4, 2003)

Destil said:
			
		

> *1d4+1 Huge air elementals that stick around for 17+ rounds could reak similar havoc on a large number of low level creatures with their wirlwind attack. How well a 9th level spell can devistate a large number of low level creatures is completly moot.  *




The only issue for me is its existence on the cleric list. The cleric is the last class that should have this spectacular of a destructive spell.  It might not be the most effective spell but it is a huge, spectacular, potentially devastating spell.  

Since its a storm spell the druid list is the most probable.  Since its a spectaular big bang spell wizards are the next most likely.  And if clerics get this then the druid list should have a similar spell with an much larger area of effect, and the wizards should have something similar but maybe using a non nature feel to it again with a much larger area of effect.

This is probably one of those lame spell and magic super cleric spells that they decided they had to translate over no matter how poorly it fit the cleric list.


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## wolff96 (Mar 4, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *The only issue for me is its existence on the cleric list. The cleric is the last class that should have this spectacular of a destructive spell.  It might not be the most effective spell but it is a huge, spectacular, potentially devastating spell.*




I would have to agree. Druids, at the very least, should have this spell. 

As to why it is a cleric spell... well, you have to admit, it makes one HECK of a Fire and Brimstone "divine retribution" style spell. This is a spell that could level Sodom and Gomorrha (sp?). This spell could be a divine plague all on it's own. From that standpoint... it still doesn't make much sense, but at least you can sort of see what they might have been thinking.

---------------------------------------

By the way... if you go with the Dungeon magazine ruling, the spell does 524d6 over 10 rounds.  That's an average damage of 1834.  Kind of makes meteor swarm look wussy, eh?

It sucks against a single target (especially since it can be negated with elemental protections... 480d6 alone goes away with a simple lightning-negating spell or item).

However, a smart caster could wipe an army with this spell. Wait for a thunderstorm (to cover the rumblings first round). Then, when the army is huddled in their tents, start the spell.  Once the acid rain starts falling, the army will definitely realize something is wrong... but by that point, the body count is going to be huge before they all escape the area of effect.


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## Berk (Mar 4, 2003)

> By the way... if you go with the Dungeon magazine ruling, the spell does 524d6 over 10 rounds. That's an average damage of 1834. Kind of makes meteor swarm look wussy, eh?
> 
> It sucks against a single target (especially since it can be negated with elemental protections... 480d6 alone goes away with a simple lightning-negating spell or item).
> 
> However, a smart caster could wipe an army with this spell. Wait for a thunderstorm (to cover the rumblings first round). Then, when the army is huddled in their tents, start the spell. Once the acid rain starts falling, the army will definitely realize something is wrong... but by that point, the body count is going to be huge before they all escape the area of effect.




Control weather, if 9th level spells are being thrown around let's throw a 7th level one around, and quite frankly which commanding officer of an army wouldn't want the weather to be good around their encampment? It makes everything so much easier. Also makes for a good detector if something is up in the sky. Hmm something is happening to the weather something is up. Or oh look, it's something flying towards us or over us. Very usefull spell it is.

And it only comes out to 519d6 for the entire spell. Course actually being able to target something through rain and all that from a quarter mile away isn't that easy, especially when you have to concentrate on other things.


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## Saeviomagy (Mar 4, 2003)

Berk said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Control weather, if 9th level spells are being thrown around let's throw a 7th level one around, and quite frankly which commanding officer of an army wouldn't want the weather to be good around their encampment? It makes everything so much easier. Also makes for a good detector if something is up in the sky. Hmm something is happening to the weather something is up. Or oh look, it's something flying towards us or over us. Very usefull spell it is.
> *




True, useful. Still, when you spot the guy incoming at 1000ft, and he deafens 3/4 of your army in 6 seconds, you're not going to be able to do a lot about it. And then your army just starts dying. You don't NEED a covering storm for this spell, it's effective enough on it's own.

*



			And it only comes out to 519d6 for the entire spell. Course actually being able to target something through rain and all that from a quarter mile away isn't that easy, especially when you have to concentrate on other things.
		
Click to expand...


*
Which only makes it the single most damaging spell in the game. Given to a cleric. Giving to a cleric for soddom/gomorrah smackdowns doesn't really hold water either - isn't that what miracle would be for?



> *
> Any army worth their weight in lead should have scouting and patrolling in atleast a half mile radius around their encampment. Especially with the knowledge of long range spells being in existance.
> *




Yeah. Scouts capable of taking out a 17th level caster, or surviving an encounter with him. If he obliterates your army, it doesn't matter that you knew he was there.


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## Super_Troll (Mar 4, 2003)

Hey berk...why don't you stick the sarcasm. I expressed an opinion. If you disagree state you case, but if you want to be an ass go visit the Whitehouse.


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## dcollins (Mar 5, 2003)

wolff96 said:
			
		

> *You are correct.  The effects did stack in the Dungeon adventure explanation of the spell.
> *




No, that's incorrect. I've got "The Storm Lord's Keep" in front of me, and it goes into great detail about the effects of _storm of vengeance_ over two pages. The different effects do not stack up together.

Some quotes (p. 72-73):


> *
> As described in the Player's Handbook, the spell effect begins with a deafening thunderclap... In the second round, the rain of the thunderstorm briefly turns to acid... In the third round, six lightning bolts strike targets in the village... In the fourth round, hailstorms rain down...
> *




Note the words "begins" and "briefly" above. Damage dice are not shown as being stacked. Also, it refers to a moment when "the damaging effects of the storm" are finished, which in context must be different from the end of the spell itself (i.e., in rounds 5-10 with rain & wind only).


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## Berk (Mar 5, 2003)

> Hey berk...why don't you stick the sarcasm. I expressed an opinion. If you disagree state you case, but if you want to be an ass go visit the Whitehouse.




*yawn* should look at your own post first, you threw the first stone





> True, useful. Still, when you spot the guy incoming at 1000ft, and he deafens 3/4 of your army in 6 seconds, you're not going to be able to do a lot about it. And then your army just starts dying. You don't NEED a covering storm for this spell, it's effective enough on it's own.




I personally am not talking about a covering storm for defensive purposes. Course I could be confused by what you mean, it is after 3am. Anyways there will be the tell-tale signs of the StoV coming if the skies are clear. Magically clear at that. If the sky I made clear through magic started getting cloudy or what not right away an alarm sounds before any effects could even happen. Don't need to be able to hear to move.





> Yeah. Scouts capable of taking out a 17th level caster, or surviving an encounter with him. If he obliterates your army, it doesn't matter that you knew he was there.




They just need to be able to disrupt the caster. The spell is concentration after all. I know, low level scouts and a high level cleric, tons of ranks in concentration, well if the cleric is gonna do nothing about them while they stand there and whack at him then oh well. Also I would deffinately be sure that the scouts have some way of signaling the encampment if danger is nearby.


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## Destil (Mar 5, 2003)

dcollins said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No, that's incorrect. I've got "The Storm Lord's Keep" in front of me, and it goes into great detail about the effects of storm of vengeance over two pages. The different effects do not stack up together.
> 
> ...



While this is almost certinaly the intention of the spell, as written the wording implys that they stack. Though really I'm of the oinion it needs to be re-worded in eratta to remove the word additional.


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## Celebrim (Mar 5, 2003)

Well, I'm glad that's settled. 

BTW, Storm Lord's Keep is an excellent module, even if it is Epic Level and therefore can't help but occassionally be cheesy.

For instance in the Roc Eerie when it notes that the eight half-white dragon rocs present no challenge to a party of this level and thus no XP should be awarded.


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## Berk (Mar 5, 2003)

> Well, I'm glad that's settled.
> 
> BTW, Storm Lord's Keep is an excellent module, even if it is Epic Level and therefore can't help but occassionally be cheesy.
> 
> For instance in the Roc Eerie when it notes that the eight half-white dragon rocs present no challenge to a party of this level and thus no XP should be awarded.




I don't know. Our 19th-20th level group killed all the rocs and giants and the storm lord pretty easily, no deaths for us at all. The only problem we had was the dragon. We are still fighting the dragon 8 months later. =op


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