# Symbiotes (Venom/Carnage/Toxin) for D&D



## Flame Draconion (Oct 6, 2005)

Ok, so I have been trying to work out a symbiote for D&D.  As you can guess I like Spider-Man, but the problem is I think my stuff is to powerful.  I was thinking of making it an Intelligent Weapon of Legacy, but what to use to unlock them.  If anyone has ideas or what not Id really appriciate it.  I am not really looking for Conversions of the actual characters...though it would be useful story wise.  Any ideas out there?


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## Enamel_32 (Oct 6, 2005)

If it's any help, there's an intelligent symbiont armor in the eberron campaign setting book, in the monsters section, as well as a couple weapons.


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## aceofgames (Oct 6, 2005)

I've seen those.  Their not exactly what he's looking for, I bet.
I have a friend who once made up a magic item based on the symbiotes.  Waaay too borken.
However, I suggest creating a variant of the Glimmerskin from the MM2. It already has most of the stuff associated with symbiosis, but you might want to try giving it different restrictions based on the problems associated with Venom/Carnage/Toxin, i.e., the psychological and physiological problems caused by them.


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## Sigurd (Oct 6, 2005)

Unlike spiderman, you have far more magic to draw on.


Why not make it a demonic possession.


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## evolved (Oct 7, 2005)

because it was more subtle than that

closer to some freaky version of the fiend bound prc from dragon 300 i think

but the intelligent item of legacy power is a good one

it would require the ability to cast web, 4 ranks in climb, jump, maybe tumble, and improved unarmed strike

damn that wonk niether venom or carnage had those abilities before thier symbioses

well avoid skill penanlties


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## Flame Draconion (Oct 7, 2005)

It's not so much what a character needs to use, but what that suits give them.
Add in that the suits are trying to change the character to suit 'their' desires, then you have role-play and challenge for the players.  Taking Carnage's bloodlust and slowly turning it to the side of good, or succumbing to Venom's desire for Revenge.  The story and the pushes are there....it's how to add powers that do not break it. so that if a 3rd lvl character stubles on it it wont make them unstoppable.


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## Link 86 (Oct 10, 2005)

are you goin for an ultimate spider-man symboit or the normal symbiot? the ultimate one has venom jumping like the hulk with no web shooters but he can make whips come outta his hands, while the normal one has him with the webshooters


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## Flame Draconion (Oct 11, 2005)

Venom wise is probably going to be a touch both, but mostly original Venom.   There need to be slight modifications due to I dont think Spidey translates well.


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## Nyeshet (Oct 11, 2005)

I would suggest doing this in one of two ways: the Scion PrC (which uses an Item Familiar, empowering it as one increases in levels, as I recall), or the Acolyte of the Skin PrC (in which one slowly transforms into a fiendish creature). The Warlock class is basically an expanded variant of the latter. 

If you wish to insist on the Venom/Carnage/etc being intelligent items, then Scion is the best way to deal with it. As the item comes to trust the PC it slowly reveals more of its powers and abilities, thus empowering the character. If you are willing to see the final result as more of a permanent fusion of two sentient beings (which is not fully true to your source material) then a variant of the Acolyte of the Skin will work, I think.


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## Eversius (Oct 11, 2005)

The thing is, you won't be able to implement them without venturing into Epic level play. Carnage can military press 50 tons (or so I've heard, on Wikipedia).


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## Eversius (Oct 11, 2005)

Speaking of which, if you look at the mechanics of the military press, and apply it to D&D, the (Carnage) symbiote might just give  a +50 bonus to strength (according to the information I provided, of course; I am no sage of comics at all, merely a fan) to bring the wearer of the symbiote's max load up to around 100k pounds. Of course, this calculation would be with a peasant with only 10 STR, not with a serial killer like Cletus Kassidy who has spent quite a bit of time in prison.


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## Herobizkit (Oct 11, 2005)

You might give the Psionics/Expanded Psionics Hanbook a once-over.  One magic item contained within is called a Psychokinetic skin, which is essentially what Venom is.  The skin covers the entire body and grants the wearer certain boosts and abilities, and there are several different types.  IDHTBIFOM, so I can't quote them to you here.


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## Link 86 (Oct 11, 2005)

since i played Ultimate Spider-man, i was thinkin bout doin this too, since the symbiots r living creatures that attached them selves, i was also thinkin givin them lvls in a monster class, so i was thinkin 1/4 the experince or somethin, after its HP is below 10% or somethin then it hides and its jus the person fully healed and stuff


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## frankthedm (Oct 11, 2005)

I gave out a suit of Living Armor [guyver inspired]. The player wanted one to look like ‘Killer croc’ to go along with a ““I was once a man!” escapee from a magical experiment” concept. The suit was really a curse, but the player liked it.

+1 Full Plate with masterwork “spiked” gauntlets: Armor was 1/2 normal weight, swim only normal armor check penalty, climb at no penalty due to clawed fingers and feet.
+2 Natural armor
+2 to STR
+2 to CON
Suit reabsorbs wastes [ -2 to be tracked overland]

BUT  
Not easily removable once it bonds to the wearer... It replaces heart & a few other vital organs besideds thier skin. if the wearer _submits_ to remove disease, they will need a  "Regenerate spell" immediatly since their skin and some needed organs are now quite dead.
Doubles food requirements [sustaining ring would return to normal requirement]
Double armor check penalty for tasks that require tactile sensation, because of nearly complete loss of tactile sensation.
No breeding or fornication [those vulnerable bits are now too well guarded]
Will save DC 13 daily or 2 wisdom damage.
& takes up the following “slots”
One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head
One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso
One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt)
One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists
One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands

Give this thing: http://www.joeacevedo.com/images/figurezone/dcdfigures/dcdkillercroc_brg.jpg
A bit more human face
Spiked knuckles
An iron ball on a 15' chain with the back end as a war ready grappling hook.

Remove Disease
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Rgr 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Remove disease cures all diseases that the subject is suffering from. *The spell also kills parasites, including green slime and others.* Certain special diseases may not be countered by this spell or may be countered only by a caster of a certain level or higher.
Note: Since the spell’s duration is instantaneous, it does not prevent reinfection after a new exposure to the same disease at a later date.


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## Link 86 (Oct 11, 2005)

thats pretty cool no waist for a -2 for tracking over land, would the suit feed off of other people or feedin off jus the host?


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## Kristivas (Oct 11, 2005)

I was thinking of a symbiotic character for my DnD game, but I was going in a different direction.

I was heading more toward the Goa'uld/Tok'ra type in Stargate.  I was thinking of an organization that harvests these little things and implants them.  I was also thinking along the lines of a PrC rather than using it as a magical item.  The more the character trains and uses the abilities of his symbiote, the stronger they become and the more abilities they unlocks.

I just can't find a way to make it viable without making it overpowering.  Perhaps I should stat a new thread, as this doesn't seem to be what the OP has in mind.  I don't much care for the little junk covering the character in a suit.


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## Link 86 (Oct 12, 2005)

the symbiot is a mutual relationship where both sides gain the benifits the Goa'uld are jus a parasite,  so the host would not be harmed nor would it gain anything, Tok'ra never heard of them but yea, basically its not what he is lookin for


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## Enamel_32 (Oct 12, 2005)

From my little knowledge of the series, I believe that once the Goa'uld symbiote fully matures, it takes control of the host, and becomes rather powerful.


Based on this idea, a prestige class could be made that allowed a character to control the powers of the symbiote.


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## Nifft (Oct 12, 2005)

From what I recall of the comics, it's quite ooze-like.
Perhaps a PrC (Acolyte of the Ooze?) that learns to wear an ooze, and gains all sorts of oozy goodness -- sort of a more martial Oozemaster -- ability boosts, but no spellcasting.

 -- N


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## Nyeshet (Oct 16, 2005)

*How about this? (as a starting point for further editting as it was made on the fly)*



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> From what I recall of the comics, it's quite ooze-like.
> Perhaps a PrC (Acolyte of the Ooze?) that learns to wear an ooze, and gains all sorts of oozy goodness -- sort of a more martial Oozemaster -- ability boosts, but no spellcasting.



Ability boosts, resistances, etc sound as much like the Warlock or the Favored Soul as the Acolyte of the Skin. Not surprising really, since the AotS changes the PC into a fiend and the FS changes the PC into a celestial, and even the Warlock's non-casting abilities are supposed to represent its less than human heritage (ie: what the Sorcerer class says _it_ is supposed to do). Actually, the Dragon Disciple also sounds a bit like this, now that I think about it. Hmm, . . . . .

Okay, I wrote up the following. It is almost certainly too powerful, but I think it captures the general feel and perhaps gives a starting point to work from. Please note the title of this post. This was made on the fly and I do not even pretend it is balanced. It needs extensive editting. I'm just not sure where / how to edit it so as to keep the flavor abilities while also maintaining the balance. 

Click the button to open it (as it is a bit long). 

- - - - -
[sblock]
The following is what comes to my mind when I consider a way to do this. I chose the Dragon Disciple for the base set up and expanded it to 15 levels instead of the standard 10. I expect Monks or Rogues as the initial class due to their Evasion ability. Skill points are a major give up for this PrC for the rogue (also trap sense, sneak attack progression, and eventual rogue specials). Poor Will save (and maybe medium save), unarmed damage, increased AC due, increased speed, slowfall, some specials are given up by the monk. 

I do not know what (likely extensive) pre-reqs to set for this. Perhaps a few extraplanar languages, a couple feats, Evasion, and a couple unlikely (DM controlled) specials such as meeting an extraplanar aberrant or two. Wasn't there a feat "Aberrant Blood"? Perhaps it should also be taken to signify the unusual bond forming (prior to actually attachment, so to speak). The more I look at it, the less useful having skills as a pre-req seem to be. A dip into Wiz or even bard could grant any needed for Know (the planes), Decipher Script, or anything such as that - including the languages, actually. Of course, if one actually _stacks_ the bonii to BAB and the saves, then dipping is not enough to offset the BAB, and the N/PC will still need to gain five levels prior to taking the PrC. So perhaps this works out, actually. 

Pre-Requisits
BAB: +3
Feat: Aberrant Blood, Skill Focus (Knowledge [the planes])
Skills: Knowledge (the planes) 4 ranks
Languages: At least two Extraplanar Languages
Special: Evasion
Special: Has had contact with an extraplanar aberrant ooze-like creature which has decided to bond with the character (literally). 

Name: ??? (undecided)
HD: d8
BAB: Medium
Prof: none gained
Saves: Medium Fort, Good Refl, Poor Will
Skill Pts per Level: 2 + Int
Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Speak Language, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble. 

1 Aberrant Form, Natural Armor (+1/+1)
2 Combat Style (2WF), Frightful Form
3 Ability Boost (Str +2), Slippery Mind
4 Natural Armor (+1/+2), Acrobatic Mobility
5 Improved Combat Style (Impr 2WF)
6 Ability Boost (Dex +1/+2), DR 1/magic
7 Natural Armor (+2/+3), Improved Evasion
8 Combat Style Mastery (Grtr 2WF)
9 Ability Boost (Str +2/+4), Athletic Mobility
10 Natural Armor (+2/+4), DR 2/magic
11 Aberrant Metabolism, Energy Resistance 5
12 Ability Boost (Con +1/+2), A Thousand Faces
13 Natural Armor (+3/+5)
14 Perfect Mobility, DR 3/magic
15 Ability Boost (Str +3/+6), Aberrant Apotheosis

1 Aberrant Form: The character has bound himself to an aberrant creature remenescent of an ooze. Initially the changes are minor, but as levels increase the changes become more and more pronounces. 

Upon first level the character gains the ability to alter their form as a swift action. While in this form their overall shape is unchanged, but it takes on an odd seeming, as if unfinished. Their fingers lengthen and firm to become claws, and their head loses most of its recognizable features, perhaps assuming a characture of its typical forms (vast eye spots, massive mouth able to open impossibly wide, etc). 

The character gains a +10 to disguise checks while in this form (in the sense that others seeing him are quite unlikely to be able to identify him; he cannot suddenly seem as another person, however; instead such attempts should receive a -10 penalty while in this form). The character gains the benefits of Improved Unarmed Strike while in this form and can make Bite and Claw attacks readily, the damage increasing by one degree for each from that typical of humanoids of thier size. 

Note that while in his aberrant form the character does not need to make fortitude saves against extreme environmental heat or chill, such as being in a hot desert or arctic waste. Of course, his appearance may be an issue if others are near. Note that assuming the aberrant form is similar to assuming a Wild Shape: worn items are subsumed into the aberrant flesh, leaving no sign as to their presense, but unless the benefit of such items would remain even while wildshaped all benefit from such subsumed items is lost while the character is in their aberrant form. 

1 Natural Armor (+1/+1): The character's skin hardens as they advance in experience with their aberrant symbiote. The initial number represents the character's natural armor while not in their aberrant form. The second number is their natural armor bonus while in their aberrant form. Note that the nature of this skin is alterable. Sometimes the blows glance off as if their skin were too hard to penetrate. Other times the weapon penetrates as normal but - upon removal - have caused no damage. 

2 Combat Style (2WF): The character gains Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat, for as they advance in their symbiotic nature they slowly lose their ability to discern the difference between their left and right - becoming first ambidextrous and eventually multidextrous as their feet become as readily utile as their hands. 

2 Frightful Form: The odd coloration and horrific unfinished caracature appearance of their alternate form may inspire fear in those that witness it. While in their alternate form the character gains a bonus to their Intimidation checks equal to their level in this PrC. Upon a successful Intimidation check the foe is Shaken. If they fail by more than 5 they are Frightened. If they fail by more than 10 they are Panicked. 

3 Ability Boost (Str +1/+2): The symbiote grants increased ability to its host, increasing his Strength by the degree indicated. While in his aberrant form the increase is the second (larger) number; the increase is halved while in his more normal form. 

3 Slippery Mind: The two minds are slowly fusing to become one. By this point they are close enough that each suffers a chance of being affected by any effect that targets the host, but they are far enough apart that each receives its own save. If one succeeds, they both succeed (due to the increasingly singular nature of their minds). 

4 Acrobatic Mobility: The character gains increased benefits to its movement while in his aberrant form. His increasingly ooze-like nature allows him to sqeeze out of bonds and through tight situations, and it also allows his movements to occationally bend in ways one would not expect of being with a skeleton. He gains a benefit to Escape Artist and Tumble equal to half his level in this PrC. His ability to Jump is even more improved, allowing him to make extraordinary leaps. He need take only a five foot step to make a running jump (whether in length or height), and he gains his entire level in this PrC as a bonus to Jump checks. 

5 Improved Combat Style (Impr 2WF): The character gains Improved Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat. 

6 Ability Boost (Dex +1/+2): The character's increasingly bendable skeleton and stretchable tendons and ligaments grant him a bonus to Dexterity. The former is in regards to his normal form (although the character may be starting to think otherwise, in regards to this particular form), and the latter is in regards to his aberrant form. 

6 DR +1/magic: The aberrant flesh of the character begins resisting some of the damage it should be receiving. It is likely, at first, that the character may not even notice this effect, as it is visually similar to when its natural armor seems more ooze-like than stone-like. Note that this benefit only exists while the character is in its aberrant form. 

7 Improved Evasion: The character's flesh, while in its aberrant form, now seems to bend away from the damaging energies that seek to harm it. Those witnessing this may even gape in surprise at the results, as the limbs seem to stretch and bend into odd contortions to evade the damage of, for instance, a line of fire. Its overall size and position remains unchanged (except for minor acrobatic movements accompanying the alterations in form), but otherwise its form may briefly take almost any contortion to successfully evade the damage heading its way. 

8 Combat Style Mastery (Grtr 2WF): The character gains Greater Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat. 

9 Ability Boost (Str +2/+4): The strength of the character's body - both aberrant and otherwise, increases to double its prior advancement. Due to its aberrant flesh there may, in fact, be no noticeable alterations to musclemass despite this advancement. The character may look significantly weaker than he truly is. 

9 Athletic Mobility: The character is increasingly capable in moving swiftly and efficiently while in his aberrant form, despite the terrain. His Climb and Swim skills receive a bonus equal to half his level, and his penalties for moving at his normal base speed while Climbing are halved. So too are his penalties for moving at greater than his base speed while Climbing, and he can remain underwater for fourfold as long as normal without penalty. Finally, his ability to Jump is slightly enhanced again, as his skill bonus increases to half-again his level (x1.5), and he no longer needs to take a five-foot step to make a running jump - all jumps are effectively considered running jumps. While in its aberrant form it gains +5 to its base speed. 

11 Aberrant Metabolism: His increasingly aberrant metabolism grants him benefits against penalties that affect his Fortitude. Should he fail a Fortitude save the penalty is delayed a round, and he receives a second save at that point to attempt again to resist it. Furthermore, while he is in his aberrant form should he fail the Fortitude save (twice) he takes only half damage unless the effect also affects objects. He also is continuously under the effect of Lesser Fortification while in his aberrant form: Critical Hits and Sneak Attacks have a 25% chance of failing as his organs and blood vessels seem to simply move out of the way, change into something less sensitive to damage, or even react like his increasingly oozy flesh - simply bending around the wound and restoring entirely itself after. 

11 Energy Resistance 2/5: The character's aberrant flesh becomes resistant to two of the following four energies: acid, cold, electricity, fire. The greater of the two numbers reflects its - I mean _his_ - aberrant form. 

12 Ability Boost (Con +1/+2): The character's metabolism is increasingly aberrant, increasingly able to deal with the best and worst with equal ease. It gains the listed bonii when in its relavent form ("normal" / aberrant). By this time the character probably can no longer tell which should feel "normal" to it. 

12 A Thousand Faces: Its aberrant flesh can assume a slightly altered appearance even in its "normal" form, granting it a +10 bonus to Disguise checks while in its "normal" form. 

14 Perfect Mobility: The character's aberrant form becomes exceptionally skilled in mobility, its form changing with its needs in some instances, gaining and losing whatever limbs may best be suited to its needs. Note that any extra limbs gained in this manner are extremely simple in form, barely adequet for grasping branches, spiking into walls, maintaining balance, etc. They cannot hold items, let alone weapons. 

The character gains Spider Climb at will as an Supernatural ability. Its bonus to Jump increases to twice its level in this PrC. Its benefit to Swim allows it to remain underwater for up to tenfold its normal duration without penalty. Its bonii to Escape Artist and Tumble increase to equal to its level in this PrC. It can briefly grow as many as 2d4 additional limbs, but these limbs do not have digits (although they do have "hands" capable of gripping branches, wall surfaces, etc). It may use weapons to defend itself while climbing without penalty due to these additional limbs maintaining the effect. 

15 Ability Boost (Str +3/+6): The character's body is again increased in strength, as indicated. 

15 Aberrant Apotheosis: The character's aberrant symbiosis is complete, for the two are now one. It retains the benefit of Slippery Mind now more due to their aberrant thought processes than due to having two minds. It gains Dark Vision 60 ft and its base speed increases to +10 ft (instead of +5 ft). Its Natural Armor again increases by +1 (to +6), and its Foritified aberrant flesh gains increased resistance to Critical Hits and Sneak Attacks; such fail 50% of the time. It gains Fast Healing +1, and removed limbs can be reattached or regrown. Also, its two chosen Energy Resistances increase to 5/10. Finally, it gains SR equal to its level (which, admittedly, is of arguable worth at this point, but it adds further flavor to this creature). It can maintain two additional limbs indefinately while in its alternate form, but again they are unable to hold items (such as weapons) well enough to do more than simply hold them. 

While in its aberrant form it has a Frightful Aura (Su). All that enter the aura have to make a Will save as if the character had targetted them with its Frightful Presense ability. A separate Intimidation check is rolled for each. If one rolls successfully against it they are immune for 24 from the Frightful Aura (but not necessarily the Frightful Presense; the character must choose to use Intimidate against them for that, however, and as it is a standard action this is unlikely in combat, especially if the Aura failed).

Its type changes to Aberration, regardless of its current form. However, due to its (more or less cosmetic by this point) dual forms it remains vulnerable to both effects that affect humanoids and also effects that affect aberrations (such as bane weapons, etc). 

[/sblock]


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## Link 86 (Oct 17, 2005)

i really like that, it goes right down to the wire, imo, umm i'd take the best part's and make those parts into the living armor portion instead of makin it a PrC, but i really like that, two thumbs up


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## Kristivas (Oct 18, 2005)

Link 86 said:
			
		

> the symbiot is a mutual relationship where both sides gain the benifits the Goa'uld are jus a parasite,  so the host would not be harmed nor would it gain anything, Tok'ra never heard of them but yea, basically its not what he is lookin for




Tok'ra are the good (or neutral) version of the Goa'uld.  They actually share a body with their hosts.  They switch back and forth between who's concious and whatnot.  Becoming a host to the Tok'ra is voluntary, they aren't taken over or used the way Goa'uld use their hosts.


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## Storyteller01 (Oct 19, 2005)

Herobizkit said:
			
		

> You might give the Psionics/Expanded Psionics Hanbook a once-over.  One magic item contained within is called a Psychokinetic skin, which is essentially what Venom is.  The skin covers the entire body and grants the wearer certain boosts and abilities, and there are several different types.  IDHTBIFOM, so I can't quote them to you here.




I thought of this too, but it gets expensive. The Venom suit has nearly all the abilities available for a psychoactive skin.

Examples via 3.0:
Skin of the Chameleon; +15 to Hide; 4,500

Skin of the Claw; unarmed attacks do 1d12 damage w/o AoO's (for Carnage??); 16,000

Skin of the Defender; +4 natural armor; 32,000

Skin of the Hero (it WAS made for Spider-Man, maybe this represents the spider sense??); +3 luck bonus to all saves, AC, and attack rolls; 68,000

Skin of Iron; grant Iron Body benefits (a possible Venom bonus? the +6 Str/-6 Dex would seem to fit that); 240,000

Skin of Proteus; grants the metamorphosis power (limited shapechange); 90,000

Skin of the Spider; +20 to Climb checks + body equilibrium; 20,000

Skin of the Troll; regenerative abilities (1 hp per level per hour, plus other bennies); 90,000


I just picked the ones that seemed relevant (all but one or two), but you can see the cost build-up (470,500 gp for all this). Only one skin is supposed to be active at one time, but if one has the cash there's no reason they can't all be part of one intelligent (empathic??) skin.


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## Storyteller01 (Oct 19, 2005)

Kristivas said:
			
		

> Tok'ra are the good (or neutral) version of the Goa'uld.  They actually share a body with their hosts.  They switch back and forth between who's concious and whatnot.  Becoming a host to the Tok'ra is voluntary, they aren't taken over or used the way Goa'uld use their hosts.





ie they're a more conscientious roommate. The Tok'ra don't take control of the consciousness without consent (usually) and the hosts get to take advantage of the extended lifespan (they're allowed to have persuits of their own).


Slight hi-jack: WHo is Toxin? I know Venom had 5 or 6 more 'kids' but I didn't think they survived.


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## Link 86 (Oct 19, 2005)

yea i was askin my self a that same question, so i looked it up online, Toxin is the son of Carnage, if im not mistaken he is also a good guy because his host is an ex-cop


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## Link 86 (Oct 19, 2005)

whats the feat "Aberrant Blood" do?


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## Flame Draconion (Oct 19, 2005)

Toxin is the son of Carnage, who attached to a cop.  The cop was so taken with Spider-man that he followed his example.  So yes the Symbiote is a good guy, but still new to the whole good guy concept.
As for the feat it gives a couple of different abilities, it is in Lords of Madness


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## Herobizkit (Oct 20, 2005)

*Re: Costs of Psychokinetic skin*

You could make it similar to a bloodline as seen in Unearthed Arcana, or even the way that Celestials gain their spell-like powers (albeit I'm sure you'd like the character to get his powers faster).  Make a symbiote template. 

Or, play Mutants and Masterminds, and have him re-make his character as a super.


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## Link 86 (Oct 20, 2005)

well if u did it kinda like a template, i think u'd have to go more like a slaadi, and have a the "egg" type deal and let the symbiot grow from that


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