# Lost (5/17 SPOILERS!!!)



## TracerBullet42 (May 18, 2006)

Holy crap...I love this show!


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## Crothian (May 18, 2006)

eh, another show where they just confirm what they've hinted at and then not a lot happens.  How does a sail boat get that close without anyone seeing it?  I imagine its empty since no one was on deck. 

I'm curious if they are actually going to tell us what happen next week.  They've said that before and never have.


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## Crothian (May 18, 2006)

or maybe it's Desmond on that boat....that would be funny


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## DonTadow (May 18, 2006)

I could have done without the MIcheal flashbacks that took up half of the show.  It just confirmed what we knew.  But as usual the last ten minutes were great.  I think Sayid is going to tail the five, probably with another force.  

I'm a little upset that Charlie throughout all the heroin.  what else will they use when someone else has libby's decisions. 

Also it was a nice way to explain how a little boy grows up quickly in 20 days without them casting emmanual lewis.


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## Richards (May 18, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> How does a sail boat get that close without anyone seeing it?



I imagine because everyone's focus was on the funeral.

Johnathan


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## Crothian (May 18, 2006)

Richards said:
			
		

> I imagine because everyone's focus was on the funeral.
> 
> Johnathan




Well, it doesn't sail up in five minutes.  Over the open water one can see many miles and a boat is extremely obvious.  But it's not important and will never be answered or even worried about on the show.


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## dravot (May 18, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Well, it doesn't sail up in five minutes.  Over the open water one can see many miles and a boat is extremely obvious.  But it's not important and will never be answered or even worried about on the show.




I've seen real life things like that.  Every now and then something that should be bleeding obvious gets missed.  It's nothing to obsess over.

I'm disappointed that more people hadn't decided that Michael was off his rocker.


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## RangerWickett (May 18, 2006)

I actually appreciated them showing the flip side of the situation. Seeing that, I can actually forgive Michael for being a moron and actually trying to go along with the Others' plan. He should have told the group what was up from the get go, and then staged the escape for Henry Gale's sake, but I believed he was genuinely heartbroken when he saw Walt.

Ms. Clue? Or was it Mrs. Clue? And she did a nice mimick of the line the custody attorney used, right?


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## Crothian (May 18, 2006)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Ms. Clue? Or was it Mrs. Clue? And she did a nice mimick of the line the custody attorney used, right?




Ya, it was.  Michael should have at least asked why to one of the many things.  He seems like he has no cares of what is going on even when it involves his son.


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## RangerWickett (May 18, 2006)

What was that web address on the Hanso page? Letyourcompassbeyourguide? I can't seem to get there.


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## Crothian (May 18, 2006)

What if the boat is the one Michael asked for?  He said to the Others that he wanted a boat.....


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## Tiberius (May 18, 2006)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I'm a little upset that Charlie throughout all the heroin.  what else will they use when someone else has libby's decisions.




To be fair, I'm not sure he knew Libby was dead by that point, let alone that Jack was able to use some of the heroin for medicinal purposes.


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## Brown Jenkin (May 18, 2006)

I too was of the "what a waste of another episode" opinion. No real relevalation with Syiad being the closest and even that was noticing the blatantly obvious. Also what is up with Charlie being toltally taken back. I can only think what I thought at the time when it came to his episode earlier and that is that episode was completely out of place and would better have been not aired at all. 

So next week is the finalie and they once again promise us lots. Hopefully they learned from last year. Even so my basic thought is this episode better be real good because otherwise I am likely to give up on the series altogether.


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## RangerWickett (May 18, 2006)

Permissum Vestri Complector Rector Vos

That is the name on the webpage http://www.letyourcompassguideyou.com. Other than that, the webpage is completely blank, because my computer isn't loading the Flash movie. So while I try to fix that, I'm left attempting to translate Latin.

Permissum - probably just means 'permission'

Vestri - yours (more than one person's). But it's either singular possessive, or nominative plural. I don't quite know what a plural of a plural implies in Latin.

Complector - Embrace, nominative singular. That doesn't make sense, though.

Rector - Don't know. I think it's 'director.' Nominative singular.

Vos - yourself.

Now that I look at it, it probably just translates to 'Let your compass guide you."


And now the page has loaded, so it's time for me to finagle.


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## Banshee16 (May 18, 2006)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I could have done without the MIcheal flashbacks that took up half of the show.  It just confirmed what we knew.  But as usual the last ten minutes were great.  I think Sayid is going to tail the five, probably with another force.
> 
> I'm a little upset that Charlie throughout all the heroin.  what else will they use when someone else has libby's decisions.
> 
> Also it was a nice way to explain how a little boy grows up quickly in 20 days without them casting emmanual lewis.




Can't really blame Charlie...nobody tells him anything anymore.  He didn't know Libbie and Anna Lucia were dead, and didn't know anyone needed heroin for pain relief.

Everyone's so busy keeping secrets that as a group, they're kind of shooting themselves in the foot.


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## Banshee16 (May 18, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> test




Weird....I can post single words, but not the post I want to make..

Banshee


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## RangerWickett (May 18, 2006)

Y'know, it's almost sad that the internet actually has the answers to this game so readily available. It makes it so much less satisfying to play.


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## Crothian (May 18, 2006)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Y'know, it's almost sad that the internet actually has the answers to this game so readily available. It makes it so much less satisfying to play.





What game and what answers?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 18, 2006)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Ms. Clue? Or was it Mrs. Clue? And she did a nice mimick of the line the custody attorney used, right?



Klugh.

I had the closed captions on.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 18, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> What if the boat is the one Michael asked for?  He said to the Others that he wanted a boat.....



I think it's pretty definitely the boat the Others are delivering to him. After he turns everyone in to the Others, I doubt he's fooling himself that he can rejoin the other castaways.

The list of who they want is interesting. Everyone but possibly Sawyer either is a likely candidate for psychic powers or has experienced strange phenomena first-hand on the island.


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## LightPhoenix (May 18, 2006)

Best part of the episode by far:

Charlie: "You've got to be kidding me!  Did someone put you up to this?"

 

Second best:

Sawyer: "At least now we get to kill people."

Completely cool.


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## Hand of Evil (May 18, 2006)

Unless Mikey was brainwashed beyond what we know, he killed, when he did not have too, but then he has shown he is not the brightest or the most stable.  Still say Henry is the leader.  Also have to wonder about the ruins, what was on the other side of the hill; the modern complex?  

Charlie and the Hanso drugs, role to play next season to refreash our thought on them.  

Ah, the boat, yep, I also think it was sent by the others to entice Mikey and while it should be empty, would not be surprised to find one person on it as a new plant but is possible the others just grab it from the open seas and it will have some one on it to tell the tell of pirates or woe, possible a female who has ties to Jack.


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## Taelorn76 (May 18, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Well, it doesn't sail up in five minutes.  Over the open water one can see many miles and a boat is extremely obvious.  But it's not important and will never be answered or even worried about on the show.



Well it could have been close to the island but behind a rock formation or outcropping, then floated around it.


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## BastionLightbringer (May 18, 2006)

Did anyone catch the quick clip of Desmond  in the coming attractions? What was the symbol on the hatch doors the others were guarding? 

Also "letyour compass guide you"...its a commercial for jeep, right?

Bastion


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## jasper (May 18, 2006)

ok the station wasn't coming in clear last night and I didn't feel good. Anyone what to give me or point to a good recap? thanks


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## shaylon (May 18, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> What game and what answers?




There is a kind of internet game they are doing for the summer that is supposed to offer up all kinds of information, much like the show says it will.    So far the game has led you to information about the hanso foundation and it has pretty much been a wash.  What we know so far(prior to the letyourcompass one):  Hanso has not been seen since 2002 or so.  He was last seen in Barcelona Spain.  Hanso Foundation ran into trouble with a disease in Africa.  Oh, and one of the board members, the second in command guy, didn't go to the college he said he did.  It is also likely that he is not a doctor of any kind, like he claims.

More info can be found here.  The lostpedia wiki


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## KaosDevice (May 18, 2006)

Where to start?

Did the people of LOST island just become completely stupid? Could Michael have been acting any more furtive, guilty and weird? He might as well been walking around with one of those lighted arrow signs pointed at his back with 'I've been turned by The Others' written on it.

Who in their right mind would head out into the jungle with him now?

Still, it is always fun to see 'behind the scenes' into what the Others are up to. That they went to all the trouble to set up Village of the Danged to present a false front (as witnessed by Walt and Claire first hand and Kate by evidence) is interesting in and of itself. The fact that the Pearl hatch isn't mentioned AT ALL in this episode is another. What was the symbol on the Other's hatch? A 'B'? I'm on the hunt for stills.

I'm with those that think it is Desmond on the boat, he was on a race around the world after all. it could tie in with the boat Michael requested though. Interesting....


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## Hand of Evil (May 18, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> Where to start?
> 
> Did the people of LOST island just become completely stupid?




It is possible that they are all infected, aka shots, that is making them act like they are.


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## RatPunk (May 18, 2006)

I'm with everyone else that thinks the boat is Desmond's. Michael demanded THE boat, meaning the boat the others used to attack the raft.

The symbol on the Others hatch was an upright rectangle with the word "Dharma" written across it.


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## Sir Brennen (May 18, 2006)

I can see Jack buying Michael's anxiety over Walt. He wants to have a plan and stick to it - he's scared about having too many unknowns. Everyone _knows_ how concerned Michael is over Walt, how it's made him a bit unstable, and I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume the other castaway's are going to give him some slack. It's only when Michael actually asks Sayid to back out, when he _is_ the most logical choice to join, that a red flag really goes up, and Sayid was the only one to witness it.

Also interesting that Kate is on the list, after the Others had given her back once, and Jack's previous comment that he took her with him to make the trade deal because "they don't want you."

At the Other's camp, did Zeke look meaningfully at some tent and say something about asking "her?" Don't remember the exact quote, but it seemed to imply he was referring to a woman who's his superior. My first thought that it's going to be Rousseau as a surprise twist, but I can't see that making any sense, given her behaviour previously in the series.


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## Brown Jenkin (May 18, 2006)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> At the Other's camp, did Zeke look meaningfully at some tent and say something about asking "her?" Don't remember the exact quote, but it seemed to imply he was referring to a woman who's his superior. My first thought that it's going to be Rousseau as a surprise twist, but I can't see that making any sense, given her behaviour previously in the series.




If it is Rousseau then there is scheming and plans within plans within plans since she is the one who turned Henry Gale over and facitated Claries escape. Not that there can't be that level of scheming going on but if there is I would definitely walk away from the show because then absolutely nothing going on could ever be trusted.


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## Taelorn76 (May 18, 2006)

I thought when they were carting Michael through the village I saw Desmond sitting outside a hut.


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## Arnwyn (May 18, 2006)

Not a great episode. However, I did really like seeing the "behind the scenes" (as KaosDevice so eloquently put it) of The Others, so that was cool. And Walt yelling "they're lying, they're not what they seem" (paraphrasing). Good stuff. And neat seeing the next Dharma hatch - some rectangle (along with the Swan, Pearl, Arrow, Medical, and Flame [from the map]). That's all six.

But the Lostaways stupidity just irks me. Michael is definitely all weird and wacko, and when it comes to anything about The Others, you've got to be fricken' nuts not to be really _really_ suspicious. Duh!

And I'm confused why they'd want Kate (and some of the others) when they had her before. Weird, and doesn't make any sense. They got some 'splainin' to do.



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> or maybe it's Desmond on that boat....that would be funny



That would be!

Desmond gets out, looks around, sees the Lostaways: "Aw, dammit!"


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## Ao the Overkitty (May 18, 2006)

Okay. let me see if I've got this figured out.  Michael's list is the list of (living) people who have seen abberations on the island.  Jack saw his father, Kate saw the horse, Hurley saw the 'imaginary' guy from the asylum, Sawyer saw.... can't remember.

Am I at all correct on this, or is this just the sickness talking?


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## shaylon (May 18, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> Did the people of LOST island just become completely stupid?




Actually no I think this happened on the first episode of last season but it is possible that they have become worse as of late.

I am not buying the Michael arguments.  He acted completly irrational to at least three people (Jack, Hurley, and Sayid) and no one except Sayid questioned it.  His convo with Jack about doing it his way was a complete flag and Jack should have seen that.

Regarding the boat, I don't care if it is Desmond or for Michael or something else, I agree with Crothian.  You would have seen that thing miles off if it was in the ocean.  Hell Locke was staring off into the ocean prior to the funeral, he didn't see it minutes before Sun did?  Likely it is a gift from the others, as I doubt Locke would have missed a boat on the horizon.  

Overall a crappy episode, but that has become the norm with this series.  Last season the story was good and captivating.  This year they have beaten a dead horse with the flashbacks and the lack of information the promised.  I am a firm believer that the producers have no idea what they are doing, as evidenced with the red herrings that they are feeding the net conspiricy theorists with.  If you have a storyline you don't need your writing team scouring the net to feed crap to the viewers with.  Tell us what the hell is going on, or tell us enough to want to tune in next season at least.

Oh, and so Kate didn't hear Michael when they were both captured, but she didn't hear Zeke talking to him about keeping his mouth shut and how we have another friend of yours or whatever he said?  Yeah that makes sense!


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## Hand of Evil (May 18, 2006)

Ao the Overkitty said:
			
		

> Okay. let me see if I've got this figured out.  Michael's list is the list of (living) people who have seen abberations on the island.  Jack saw his father, Kate saw the horse, Hurley saw the 'imaginary' guy from the asylum, Sawyer saw.... can't remember.
> 
> Am I at all correct on this, or is this just the sickness talking?



Yes, they are the ones that had some 'encounter' on the island...Sawyer's was the pig...but then so did Locke and Eko.  Kate may be on the list just as an 'object' to control both Jack and Sawyer, sort of if you do not help, we hurt her but if you remove those four, you basicly remove the people that have the greatest pull with the other castaways, which you may then be able to control better (if you had a person inside).


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## Taelorn76 (May 18, 2006)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> At the Other's camp, did Zeke look meaningfully at some tent and say something about asking "her?" Don't remember the exact quote, but it seemed to imply he was referring to a woman who's his superior. My first thought that it's going to be Rousseau as a surprise twist, but I can't see that making any sense, given her behaviour previously in the series.



I thought he was calling Mrs Clue


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## Sir Brennen (May 18, 2006)

The paper Michael was burning outside the hatch - wasn't that pink? The list he was given was on a piece of yellow paper. Did Walt slip him a note?


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 18, 2006)

Anyone know when the DVD set for season two will be released?

Never mind. I just found out it will not be until October. Lord. I'm gonna have to wait until the fall for new episodes of Battlestar, LOST and a DVD of the same. Well, I guess in the mean time it's back to my exhaustive collection of porn...


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## Fast Learner (May 18, 2006)

Some things that occurred to me upon just watching it, not yet mentioned in this thread:

The "rock" with the hole in it is an old building with a window. I suspect it was built by the original Hanso, survivor of the _Black Rock_.

Charlie, having beaten his demons and found resolution, can die now.

I'm surprised at how many Others were hanging out around the tent village a week after Michael was captured: who was the act for, outside the tent Michael was in? Do you tie up a dozen of your crew playing pretend so Michael can go outside and pee? Seems like a mistake.

Already mentioned: the color of the note is unchanged, it's just a matter of the yellow light in the tent vs. the light outside. Walt said the Others were "pretending." Michael is an idiot of the highest order: I have a daughter, the dearest thing to me on the planet, more dear than myself, but there's no frickin' way I'd fall for that crap, kill some people and send others to their doom when there's _no indication that my child is in definite danger_, and even to the contrary, though kidnapped, seems to be just fine. Also, he's an .


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## KaosDevice (May 18, 2006)

I think the others might be thinking of getting what they see as the 'leadership core' of the Lostaways in one fell swoop. Sawyer controlls the goods, people seem to look to Kate (on occasion for leadership), Jack is...well Jack and Hurley is the diplomatic envoy to just about everyone. It would seriously destabilize the dynamics of the the rest group if all four of them could be rounded up at once. Just by taking one of them (Kate for instance) would just serve to polarize and inspire the rest of the four against them (the Others), where as if they could take all four it would serve to be a pretty effective slap down for the rest of the Lostaways.


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## Brown Jenkin (May 18, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> I think the others might be thinking of getting what they see as the 'leadership core' of the Lostaways in one fell swoop. Sawyer controlls the goods, people seem to look to Kate (on occasion for leadership), Jack is...well Jack and Hurley is the diplomatic envoy to just about everyone. It would seriously destabilize the dynamics of the the rest group if all four of them could be rounded up at once. Just by taking one of them (Kate for instance) would just serve to polarize and inspire the rest of the four against them (the Others), where as if they could take all four it would serve to be a pretty effective slap down for the rest of the Lostaways.




I thought that too for a moment then realized that there is still Locke, Echo, Sayid and Rose to provide more than competant leadership. Unfortanately the only logical reason I can come up with is that the producers have no clue what they are doing and this is a railroad to get the most popular characters all together for the finalie.


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## RangerWickett (May 18, 2006)

Which is a shame, because until this season Sayid and Locke were my favorite characters, with Eko making a strong showing earlier in the season. I was also rather partial to Jin. But they neutered Sayid and Locke, and . . .

Yeah, I'm irritated, but I'll keep watching.



P.S., if you want a mystery story with action, characterization, comedy, and actual revelation from time to time, read my High Fantasy - The Long Road storyhour. Modern fantasy, as fun as LOST. You'll love it, or your money back!


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## KaosDevice (May 18, 2006)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I thought that too for a moment then realized that there is still Locke, Echo, Sayid and Rose to provide more than competant leadership. Unfortanately the only logical reason I can come up with is that the producers have no clue what they are doing and this is a railroad to get the most popular characters all together for the finalie.





Hmmm...Sayid still seems to be pretty isolated from the death of Shannon, Locke seems to have lost just about all confidence in himself, Eko just seems to be interested in doing his own thing, he really seems to only interact with the rest of the Lostaways when he needs something or is doing something priest-like. Rose seems like the only one and she is kind of caught up with Bernard and doing her own thing as well. The 'big four' seem like the most aggressive/outgoing of the group right now. 

Just my opinion.


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## shaylon (May 18, 2006)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Unfortanately the only logical reason I can come up with is that the producers have no clue what they are doing and this is a railroad to get the most popular characters all together for the finalie.




Thanks Jenkin, that made me laugh!  You are probably right it is a ploy to get the "main" characters together so people will tune in!

Writers of Lost remind me of Bad DM's!  Railroaders!


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 18, 2006)

shaylon said:
			
		

> You would have seen that thing miles off if it was in the ocean



Except boats that size typically have small motors used to maneuver in harbor. It's hardly difficult to imagine there being a remote control to guide it around the coast and not from out in the ocean.

What's the logic there? The Others sail it out to sea, around to the other side of the island, jump off, swim home and just hope it washes up on the survivors' beach?

It's likely remote controlled and was guided in, along a path that let the Others stay in control of it as long as possible.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 18, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I thought he was calling Mrs Clue



Klugh. 



			
				Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> The paper Michael was burning outside the hatch - wasn't that pink? The list he was given was on a piece of yellow paper. Did Walt slip him a note?



We saw the note in the yellow light inside the tent. I think it's probably the same piece of paper.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 18, 2006)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I thought that too for a moment then realized that there is still Locke, Echo, Sayid and Rose to provide more than competant leadership.



Locke, Eko and Rose all have experienced psychic phenomena and are friendly to whatever the Island is up to. And, as we saw previously, the Others HAVE tried to grab Eko, but he killed two of them with his bare hands. They're probably waiting on him, assuming he and Locke don't wander over to them of their own accord.



> Unfortanately the only logical reason I can come up with is that the producers have no clue what they are doing and this is a railroad to get the most popular characters all together for the finalie.



Or, alternately, they're up to something you haven't imagined.


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## KaosDevice (May 18, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> They're probably waiting on him, assuming he and Locke don't wander over to them of their own accord.




And don't forget that Henry said (assuming he wasn't lying) that he came 'to get Locke'.


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## Desdichado (May 18, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> What if the boat is the one Michael asked for?  He said to the Others that he wanted a boat.....



Yep.  That's exactly the first thing I thought when I saw it floating up.


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## grimslade (May 18, 2006)

*Lost*

The four 'leaders' are being led away to make a strike on the Lostaways much easier. They don't want Kate, Sawyer, Hugo and Jack. They want the rest. With no weapons. No leaders. Easy pickings.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 18, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Or, alternately, they're up to something you haven't imagined...




Personally, I think they will be running hard towards the horizon or around a corner or something and suddenly smash through a plywood and plaster wall and realize the entire island is just a sound stage, ah la _The Truman Show_...

Mark my words...


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## RigaMortus2 (May 18, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> And don't forget that Henry said (assuming he wasn't lying) that he came 'to get Locke'.




Hmmm, then I wonder why he wasn't on the list they gave Michael?

Unless there are two groups of Others (which I don't beleive there is), each wanting certain people.


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## KnowTheToesToe (May 18, 2006)

Has anyone gone to:

www.letyourcompassbeyourguide.com

ONce it loads there will be a compass.  Put your curser about 1" outside compass and have the point spin just below East.  This will bring up a link.

When you click on the link, you're brought to another page where you'll get a message asking if you are one of the good ones?  N for no. Enter.  Yes doesn't do anything.

Entering N then takes you to an inner page of the Hanso Corp website.  A page I don't think has been "released" before.  

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/#section=bios

Missed the episode last night.  Can't wait for the finale.


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## shaylon (May 18, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Except boats that size typically have small motors used to maneuver in harbor. It's hardly difficult to imagine there being a remote control to guide it around the coast and not from out in the ocean.
> 
> What's the logic there? The Others sail it out to sea, around to the other side of the island, jump off, swim home and just hope it washes up on the survivors' beach?
> 
> It's likely remote controlled and was guided in, along a path that let the Others stay in control of it as long as possible.




Yes, of course, but this is only if the boat is from the Others, which is my point.  They should be freaking out that they didn't notice it from afar, instead they all look toward it as if they are prepared to rush into the water after it.  We know that the Others use explosives(rudimentary) and are watching them, and we know that the boat was not sailing and "happened" upon the island.  That said we don't know that the Others put the boat there, it is all speculation at this point.


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## eris404 (May 18, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Never mind. I just found out it will not be until October. Lord. I'm gonna have to wait until the fall for new episodes of Battlestar, LOST and a DVD of the same. Well, I guess in the mean time it's back to my exhaustive collection of porn...




OCTOBER! What's the point of that?!? That's a bad move on their part.


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## KaosDevice (May 18, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Hmmm, then I wonder why he wasn't on the list they gave Michael?
> 
> Unless there are two groups of Others (which I don't beleive there is), each wanting certain people.





I think they want the four for different reasons then they wanted Locke. Locke I think they believe is one of 'the good ones' and sympathetic to their cause. The big four they want so that the rest of the Lostaways are no longer a threat (or at least much less of one).


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## Fast Learner (May 18, 2006)

Why would the Others have sent Michael his boat right in front of everyone where he'd have to argue over it, etc.? No, that boat's not from the Others.

I'm also curious where Michael suddenly gets the balls to demand a boat while he's ready to sign up to kill folks. What a butthead.


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## Brown Jenkin (May 18, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> I think they want the four for different reasons then they wanted Locke. Locke I think they believe is one of 'the good ones' and sympathetic to their cause. The big four they want so that the rest of the Lostaways are no longer a threat (or at least much less of one).




Except again for Eko and Sayid who are both quite a threat on thier own. And how is Hugo a threat?


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## KaosDevice (May 18, 2006)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Except again for Eko and Sayid who are both quite a threat on thier own. And how is Hugo a threat?





Eko and Sayid seem to be pretty caught up in their own trips and not likely to take a leadership role. Personally sure, but not out there rallying the troops. Hugo I think is something of a unifier, he gets people together and disseminates information. I'd want him out of the way if keeping a group confused, scared and off balance was my goal.


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## RichCsigs (May 18, 2006)

KnowTheToesToe said:
			
		

> Has anyone gone to:
> 
> www.letyourcompassbeyourguide.com
> 
> ...




I enterd "Y" and got this:
http://www.letyourcompassguideyou.com/usr/


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## Brown Jenkin (May 18, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> Eko and Sayid seem to be pretty caught up in their own trips and not likely to take a leadership role. Personally sure, but not out there rallying the troops. Hugo I think is something of a unifier, he gets people together and disseminates information. I'd want him out of the way if keeping a group confused, scared and off balance was my goal.




But Jack, Sawyer and Kate are equally isolated from everyone else. Jack leads occaisionally but for the most part he is the doctor. He has been just as likely to wander off with delusions or hide out in the hatch. Sawyer on the other hand is the complete opposite of a leader. After all his lying, stealing, hoarding and the gun incident who in thier right mind would follow (oh wait, these are the moronic lostaways). Kate has never really demonstated leadership either, she just seems to want to tag along with her "boyfriends".  No I still haven't come up with any grouping that fits these 4.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 18, 2006)

eris404 said:
			
		

> OCTOBER! What's the point of that?!? That's a bad move on their part.




I dont know. I just know that according to Amazon.com the LOST DVD Release Date is October 3, 2006. I had hoped for something much sooner, but that will be about the time the new season starts. 

In the mean time, what to watch, what to watch... Hrm...

Dancing Nymphos, Vol. 4
Girls Gone Wilder, Vol. 8
Mean Chicks, Vol. 15
Random Naked People, Vol. 16
Naughty Nuns, Vol. 23
Thing People Do On An Island When They Think No One is Watching, Vol. 42


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 18, 2006)

grimslade said:
			
		

> The four 'leaders' are being led away to make a strike on the Lostaways much easier. They don't want Kate, Sawyer, Hugo and Jack. They want the rest. With no weapons. No leaders. Easy pickings.



Even without guns, I wouldn't consider Eko and Sayid easy pickings. Eko can kill with his hands, and I suspect Sayid can improvise weapons fairly easily.


----------



## Steverooo (May 18, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I'm gonna have to wait until the fall for new episodes of Battlestar





It's already out.  See my post in that thread...


----------



## EricNoah (May 18, 2006)

RichCsigs said:
			
		

> I enterd "Y" and got this:
> http://www.letyourcompassguideyou.com/usr/




the User/hmcintyr/mail folder has...

 a link to a movie on youtube.com -- an add for a 1970s model Jeep.  


This graphic (large): http://www.letyourcompassguideyou.com/usr/hmcintyr/mail/139191991471518711419.jpg

A fake e-mail

the "don't believe bad twin" ad http://www.letyourcompassguideyou.com/usr/hmcintyr/mail/news_ad.jpg

the signature of a Peter Thompson.

The user/pthompso folder likewise has some stuff in it. 

One of his e-mails has this link to google in its subject line: 

http://www.google.com/search?source...GLG,GGLG:2006-09,GGLG:en&q=binary+translators

There are scans of a number documents related to the establishment of a fleet of late model Jeeps, including Jeep Compasses.  Also a memo from the source of the Jeeps, rescinding their offer to supply the Jeeps.  http://www.letyourcompassguideyou.com/usr/pthompso/mail/memo2.png 



You gotta love a show that goes to these lenghts to entertain!


----------



## satori01 (May 18, 2006)

I think alot of what people are complaining about is what happens when the audience is "ahead" of the characters on a suspensefull show.  Yes the flashback to the "Meeting" scene with Jack and the Others, only served to confim what we already know, that the Others are clinical practioners of misdirection and Pyschological Manipulation.

Most of us have guessed, that, now we know it.  The Others are not supernatural supermen, they are just really clever manipulators, how is that not a good thing?

As for Michael and the people's reaction to him.  Michael is a pretty difficult personality.  The guys is thick headed, stuborn, and a yeller.  From personal experience, people who run roughshod over others, often get what they want, because deep down many people do not want a confrontation.  Moreover, Jack is the classic reluctant Leader.


----------



## EricNoah (May 18, 2006)

Yep, the audience gets to know a lot more than any one character on the show knows.  The characters don't share everything with each other for various reasons (could be foolishness, mistrust, cautiousness, "didn't seem important at the time" etc.).  [I really need to see one episode I apparently missed (one with Claire and the baby) recently.]

I think the biggest revelation for me was Walt trying to communicate ... something ... to his dad about the Others not being what they seem.  Maybe even moreso than we have been let in on?  Miss Clue (or whatever her name was) seemed genuinely worried when that stuff started slipping out.  

That season finale looks like it's gonna be great.  

How is Michael ever going to live down what he did when the lostaways find out?


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 19, 2006)

Ao the Overkitty said:
			
		

> Okay. let me see if I've got this figured out.  Michael's list is the list of (living) people who have seen abberations on the island.  Jack saw his father, Kate saw the horse, Hurley saw the 'imaginary' guy from the asylum, Sawyer saw.... can't remember.
> 
> Am I at all correct on this, or is this just the sickness talking?




Sawyer saw the horse as well


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 19, 2006)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Why would the Others have sent Michael his boat right in front of everyone where he'd have to argue over it, etc.? No, that boat's not from the Others.
> 
> I'm also curious where Michael suddenly gets the balls to demand a boat while he's ready to sign up to kill folks. What a butthead.



 He was never told to kill anyone. Hew was just told to free Henry and bring those four back. Killing Anna Lucia was him just taking the easy road and not thinking things through and being an a$$. As always he was to impatient and acted before coming up with another solution.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 19, 2006)

satori01 said:
			
		

> I think alot of what people are complaining about is what happens when the audience is "ahead" of the characters on a suspensefull show.  Yes the flashback to the "Meeting" scene with Jack and the Others, only served to confim what we already know, that the Others are clinical practioners of misdirection and Pyschological Manipulation.
> 
> Most of us have guessed, that, now we know it.  The Others are not supernatural supermen, they are just really clever manipulators, how is that not a good thing?



Just from my experience with co workers, most of them only watch the show, they are not scouring the web loking for hidden meanings and clues like us. Some of them are in the same place as the show and haven't peiced together some of the things and when I mention some of the topics we discuss here as well as other Lost sites, they are taken by suprise. Some hadn't picked up on the Hanso commercials or even aware that Michelle Rodriguez and "libby" were involved in DUIs.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 19, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> We saw the note in the yellow light inside the tent. I think it's probably the same piece of paper.




If you're really looking, you can see Kate and Jack's names on the piece of paper before Michael burns it.

I've said it before, I'll say it again... Michael is the textbook definition of a low WIS character.  After this episode, I'd probably give him a decent CHA though, considering how he managed to (almost) get everyone to go along with his plan.  Of course, you could then make a case for most of the characters having an average to low WIS too for not catching it.  Sayid obviously did, and I'm reasonably sure Eko knew something was wrong as well, and they're two very high WIS characters.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 19, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> He was never told to kill anyone. Hew was just told to free Henry and bring those four back. Killing Anna Lucia was him just taking the easy road and not thinking things through and being an a$$. As always he was to impatient and acted before coming up with another solution.



I said "was ready to sign up to kill others," which is exactly what he did. He specifically said he'd do _"anything"_ to get Walt back, and knew full well that he was agreeing to turn four of his friends in, no problem, with no reason at all to believe they wouldn't be harmed or killed (and plenty of evidence to the contrary). When it came time to release Henry, did he carefully slip him a gun, or cold-c.o.c.k. (that's not a dirty word) Ana-Lucia, or anything at all besides cold-blooded murder? No, he shot someone in cold blood, bang. And in a panic automatically shot someone else in cold blood, bang bang. He'll do _anything_ to get Michael back.

As long as he gets a boat. I say bs.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 19, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Best part of the episode by far:




... was when Sawyer and Jack were talking. "'Cause you're the closest thing I've got to a friend."

That was the best part.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 19, 2006)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> At the Other's camp, did Zeke look meaningfully at some tent and say something about asking "her?" Don't remember the exact quote, but it seemed to imply he was referring to a woman who's his superior. My first thought that it's going to be Rousseau as a surprise twist, but I can't see that making any sense, given her behaviour previously in the series.




I think he was referring to Miss Klugh, since she was the person who next approached Michael with her questions.

(Also, as I pointed out to my friend who thought it might be Rousseau, considering that the Others have Alex with them, and Rousseau has been searching for her since, well, forever, it wouldn't make sense. BTW, I forget- did Rousseau find out from Claire that her daughter is alive?)

One thing that I really liked about this season, and didn't really think about until this episode, is how they have been using the flashback trademark of the show to depict past occurrences on the island itself that took place either between or otherwise around the episodes we've already seen. It gives them a chance to fill in some of the gaps of things that we sometimes ask about ("how'd so and so know that they did such and such, when we didn't see them tell them about it?" Find out a couple of episodes later), as well as to maintain the show format while not always having to rely on reaching way back into the castaways' pasts to fill us in on things. Hopefully it will avoid having redundant flashback episodes like Michael's previous two episodes (which, it seemed to me, just rehashed the same story- this time, Michael's flashback actually advanced the plot and provided new information and insight).


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 19, 2006)

Ao the Overkitty said:
			
		

> Okay. let me see if I've got this figured out.  Michael's list is the list of (living) people who have seen abberations on the island.  Jack saw his father, Kate saw the horse, Hurley saw the 'imaginary' guy from the asylum, Sawyer saw.... can't remember.




Sawyer heard the voices, as I recall. Maybe they want him because he's infected?


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 19, 2006)

shaylon said:
			
		

> I am not buying the Michael arguments.  He acted completly irrational to at least three people (Jack, Hurley, and Sayid) and no one except Sayid questioned it.  His convo with Jack about doing it his way was a complete flag and Jack should have seen that.




Jack did accept Sayid's argument pretty quickly, though (admittedly, the way it came across was more because of Sayid's performance in judging Henry Gale rather than because of suspicions over Michael's behavior...)

I found it pretty significant that Jack looked over at Michael to see his reaction during the burial of Ana Lucia. He may have needed Sayid to connect the dots for him, but I think he has put Michael's irrational behavior together with Sayid's warning, and suspects that Michael may have been the guy on the grassy knoll.



> Regarding the boat, I don't care if it is Desmond or for Michael or something else, I agree with Crothian. You would have seen that thing miles off if it was in the ocean. Hell Locke was staring off into the ocean prior to the funeral, he didn't see it minutes before Sun did? Likely it is a gift from the others, as I doubt Locke would have missed a boat on the horizon.




Locke did get up and walk away for some mysterious reason. It seemed to be because of the funeral, but maybe he did see the boat. He's not exactly forthcoming with information.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 19, 2006)

shaylon said:
			
		

> Yes, of course, but this is only if the boat is from the Others, which is my point.  They should be freaking out that they didn't notice it from afar, instead they all look toward it as if they are prepared to rush into the water after it.




They didn't really show us a whole lot of their reaction to the boat, considering that it appeared in the last two minutes (or less) of show time. You sound as if you expect them to be immediately reacting in a rational and calculating manner, based on all manner of clues that we, the audience, possess, but that they may not possess, or at least not in equal amounts. These are castaways, who have been stranded at sea for over a month and a half, and have been subject to all kinds of difficulties (including the burial of two of their number right then). I don't think most people would have the sort of immediate reaction you suggest, much less people under their circumstances.

Maybe we'll see a little more of what is actually going on in their heads next week, when the series resumes?


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 19, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Of course, you could then make a case for most of the characters having an average to low WIS too for not catching it.  Sayid obviously did, and I'm reasonably sure Eko knew something was wrong as well, and they're two very high WIS characters.




Michael's got high Bluff and/or Intimidate scores. Sayid and Eko have high Sense Motive ranks. 

Ultimately, the only ones that Michael really tried to use his story on, though, were Jack and Hurley. Sawyer wasn't convinced, and had to be bullied into compliance by Jack; Kate arguably may not have known the extent of the plan (only us five), or may have thought that plans might change before the date of the expedition- she didn't see Michael and Jack's meeting, and her concern was for Hurley in the second incident (and the fact that she wasn't pushing for Hurley to join is some evidence that she wasn't in favor of Michael's plan- not actively against it, but not convinced that "this is the way it must be").


----------



## John Crichton (May 19, 2006)

Wow, there is alot of bitchin' and moaning in this thread over character stupidity, bad writing or even saying the producers don't know what they are doing.  Hah!

We are all still watching, conversing and having fun doing it.  I think they have done their jobs in spades.  

Um, yeah, I liked this ep and the internet game is kewl.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 19, 2006)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> But Jack, Sawyer and Kate are equally isolated from everyone else. Jack leads occaisionally but for the most part he is the doctor. He has been just as likely to wander off with delusions or hide out in the hatch. Sawyer on the other hand is the complete opposite of a leader. After all his lying, stealing, hoarding and the gun incident who in thier right mind would follow (oh wait, these are the moronic lostaways). Kate has never really demonstated leadership either, she just seems to want to tag along with her "boyfriends".  No I still haven't come up with any grouping that fits these 4.



the other castaways look to them as the leaders, if something needs to be done, they are the ones that the other castaways go to.  Hugo is sort of middle management or union boss, he is in between.  Sawyer is office supply, you don't like asking for stuff but you have to and he is questions actions.  Kate is a lot like Hugo.  Locke and Eko are not really trusted and seem to go their own way, and I think can be made to see the 'path' the others follow.  Sayhid mostly defers to Jack but he follows orders and has been show to be flexable in the path of greater good (this may be known from back story).  

If looked at as a business model, you replace management and your workers continue to do what they do.  If it was one of those personality/management test, I think you would see that those four score high, being red and blues, if I remember the colors right.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 19, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> They didn't really show us a whole lot of their reaction to the boat, considering that it appeared in the last two minutes (or less) of show time. You sound as if you expect them to be immediately reacting in a rational and calculating manner, based on all manner of clues that we, the audience, possess, but that they may not possess, or at least not in equal amounts. These are castaways, who have been stranded at sea for over a month and a half, and have been subject to all kinds of difficulties (including the burial of two of their number right then). I don't think most people would have the sort of immediate reaction you suggest, much less people under their circumstances.
> 
> Maybe we'll see a little more of what is actually going on in their heads next week, when the series resumes?




Your right I think it was less than one minute left when they showed the boat. I believe that the Lostaways we just in shock from the funeral and and then a seeing a boat. Also, unless I missded the scene in a previous episode, most of them had no idea that they had captured an other. So to find out that they had been holding an other for over a week and that he escaped and killed two of their friends is a lot to take in.
In next weeks previews:
[sblock]
 They show people jumping into the water to get to the boat.
[/sblock]


----------



## RangerWickett (May 19, 2006)

It's really entertaining to see gamers 'roleplaying' in stressful situations. Stranded on an island for two months, you see a boat approaching. What do you do?

"It's obviously a trick! None of us saw the boat before just now - what's up with that? Don't touch the boat, it might be diseased! Quick, let us construct a complex truss-like device to anchor the boat thirty feet out from shore, and then the professor will stitch together a Hazmat suit from coconuts and old vinyl records, so that . . . let's see, who has come closest to resolving their personal issues. Charlie, you still a heroin addict?"

"No."

"Okay, Charlie, here, put on this haz-mat suit. And if you see a black flying carpet composed of electrostatic iron filings, let us know, okay?"


----------



## shaylon (May 19, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Locke did get up and walk away for some mysterious reason. It seemed to be because of the funeral, but maybe he did see the boat. He's not exactly forthcoming with information.




This is something I hadn't considered.  That would be interesting if he saw the boat and didn't say anything about it.


----------



## Arnwyn (May 19, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> BTW, I forget- did Rousseau find out from Claire that her daughter is alive?)



IIRC, the answer is "kind of". At the end of that episode, when they were talking, neither knew what the other was really talking about, but enough hints came out that Rousseau now _suspects_ that her daughter is alive and with the Others.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 19, 2006)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> It's already out.  See my post in that thread...




What are you talking about? Season two is over and episodes from season three will not be aired until the fall. I can't even find a listing for a DVD set for season 2.5 (or 2.0 Vol. 2) anywhere. And where is the thread you are talking about?



			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Charlie, having beaten his demons and found resolution, can die now.




Why do people have to die once they issues they have been struggling with are resolved? Why can they not simply go on to being a productive member of society, albeit a member who have a troubled past? 

It seems to be an almost shockingly dark philosophy to say that once someone has overcome an issue, his or her reward for overcoming it is to die, to fly down and to become another gibbering ghost and so much rotting meat, to paraphrase Virgil.

This seems to part of the same sadistic philosophy that says life is only about the journey and only about the struggle. That way if someone works hard at something – like getting home from being trapped, or overcoming a personal problem – there is never a reward. They are just kept in a tight loop, running in circle, until hurting them becomes difficult, at which point you kill them, like any other cow to the slaughter.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (May 19, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Why do people have to die once they issues they have been struggling with are resolved? Why can they not simply go on to being a productive member of society, albeit a member who have a troubled past?
> 
> It seems to be an almost shockingly dark philosophy to say that once someone has overcome an issue, his or her reward for overcoming it is to die, to fly down and to become another gibbering ghost and so much rotting meat, to paraphrase Virgil.
> 
> This seems to part of the same sadistic philosophy that says life is only about the journey and only about the struggle. That way if someone works hard at something ? like getting home from being trapped, or overcoming a personal problem ? there is never a reward. They are just kept in a tight loop, running in circle, until hurting them becomes difficult, at which point you kill them, like any other cow to the slaughter.




That is someting you need to talk to the producers about.  Its not that we neccesarily subscribe to that philosophy but on on Lost it seems to very much be what happens.


----------



## KaosDevice (May 19, 2006)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> But Jack, Sawyer and Kate are equally isolated from everyone else. Jack leads occaisionally but for the most part he is the doctor. He has been just as likely to wander off with delusions or hide out in the hatch. Sawyer on the other hand is the complete opposite of a leader. After all his lying, stealing, hoarding and the gun incident who in thier right mind would follow (oh wait, these are the moronic lostaways). Kate has never really demonstated leadership either, she just seems to want to tag along with her "boyfriends".  No I still haven't come up with any grouping that fits these 4.




But for what-ever reason they seem to be the ones with all the power. Jack with medicine, Sawyer with his control of the gear (etc.), Hurley with the food and info and general cheer and Kate with her influence on everyone else. I still think if I wanted to completely destabilize the Lostaways those are the four I would take out one way or another.


----------



## KaosDevice (May 19, 2006)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> "Okay, Charlie, here, put on this haz-mat suit. And if you see a black flying carpet composed of electrostatic iron filings, let us know, okay?"




"I fire at the boat! No wait, I set fire TO the boat!!"


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 19, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> This seems to part of the same sadistic philosophy that says life is only about the journey and only about the struggle.



Or, alternately, they have something like 50 characters on the island and the ones that don't have compelling storylines, they want to take off stage to provide room for those that do have stories in them.

They could probably keep them around, just off at the edge of the screen, but 1) they periodically need to reinforce the danger of the situation and killing someone who's "done" lets them do this without removing the more compelling storylines from play (for the most part; see Libby for an example of how this isn't always true) and 2) people would keep asking to see Shannon, Ana Lucia and Charlie, which would eventually clutter things up with "done" characters.

I don't think there's a sinister agenda here on Lost, just them trying to manage a fairly rough story structure they've set out for themselves.


----------



## DonTadow (May 19, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Or, alternately, they have something like 50 characters on the island and the ones that don't have compelling storylines, they want to take off stage to provide room for those that do have stories in them.
> 
> They could probably keep them around, just off at the edge of the screen, but 1) they periodically need to reinforce the danger of the situation and killing someone who's "done" lets them do this without removing the more compelling storylines from play (for the most part; see Libby for an example of how this isn't always true) and 2) people would keep asking to see Shannon, Ana Lucia and Charlie, which would eventually clutter things up with "done" characters.
> 
> I don't think there's a sinister agenda here on Lost, just them trying to manage a fairly rough story structure they've set out for themselves.



Yeha, but I don't think the writers are going to chalk this up to "coicodence" and that they just needed an effective way to write people off the show.  They've already formed a pattern now of people dying after they have "completed" something.


----------



## Sir Brennen (May 19, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Why do people have to die once they issues they have been struggling with are resolved? Why can they not simply go on to being a productive member of society, albeit a member who have a troubled past?
> 
> It seems to be an almost shockingly dark philosophy to say that once someone has overcome an issue, his or her reward for overcoming it is to die, to fly down and to become another gibbering ghost and so much rotting meat, to paraphrase Virgil.



Well, if you subscribe to the Island is Purgatory theory, a character's "death" is actually a positive thing, and for the character's who's demons have been purged, they're probably flying up, not down 

However, if that's true, we don't know what Libby's issues really were, let alone if they were resolved by an abortive picnic, so why did she die? Also, how do the deaths of the Others, killed by Ana Lucia and Mr. Eko, fit into that theory? Or for that matter, the guy Ana threw into the pit that was really from the flight but killed by an Other?

And hasn't Hurley resolved his food issue? And come to grips with his psychological issues in the form of Dave? Or, with the death of Libby, is he now in a position to backslide, just like Charlie did once. Remember, Charlie did have his drug habit beat before, but then the island presented him with temptation again.


----------



## Staffan (May 19, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Why do people have to die once they issues they have been struggling with are resolved?



Because that seems to be the way things work on Lost. Boone managed to deal with his issues regarding Shannon... and dies. Shannon overcomes her grief for Boone and starts to get into a relationship with Sayid... and dies.

Don't know if Scott (Steve?) had any issues to overcome, though.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 19, 2006)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Yeha, but I don't think the writers are going to chalk this up to "coicodence" and that they just needed an effective way to write people off the show.  They've already formed a pattern now of people dying after they have "completed" something.



This happens on a lot of shows, honestly. I don't think there needs to be any grander explanation than "we were done with Shannon, guys."


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 19, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Why do people have to die once they issues they have been struggling with are resolved? Why can they not simply go on to being a productive member of society, albeit a member who have a troubled past?




They don't- they only have to die when they've had sex, or are contemplating having sex (c'mon, Libby was getting _blankets_- we all know what that means, right? Nudge, nudge, wink wink, say no more squire!)

Of course, that raises some interesting and/or disturbing questions about Boone's death...


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 19, 2006)

I think you guys analyze this show about 10 time more than anyone I know who watches it. Cthulhudrew was right about the boat, it was the cliffhanger end of the show, did you expect it to have been resolved immediately?   I think Jack had a good idea something was wrong with Mike, but there was a lot going on at the moment.  Who can say if he would have had more to say on it the next morning, but Sayid figured it out first.  Anyway I enjoyed it.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 19, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Why do people have to die once they issues they have been struggling with are resolved? Why can they not simply go on to being a productive member of society, albeit a member who have a troubled past?



As mentioned, this is a producer thing.



> It seems to be an almost shockingly dark philosophy to say that once someone has overcome an issue, his or her reward for overcoming it is to die, to fly down and to become another gibbering ghost and so much rotting meat, to paraphrase Virgil.



Yes, that is dark. An alternate perspective, though, is that once someone has overcome an issue, their reward is not having to deal with that issue, frankly one heck of a reward much of the time. Then you're faced with your next problem. Some day perhaps you will have overcome all of your issues and have the ultimate reward of no issues. Doesn't seem dark to me at all. It's that dying and rotting meat and such that makes is sound dark, not the overcoming is its own reward part.



> This seems to part of the same sadistic philosophy that says life is only about the journey and only about the struggle. That way if someone works hard at something – like getting home from being trapped, or overcoming a personal problem – there is never a reward. They are just kept in a tight loop, running in circle, until hurting them becomes difficult, at which point you kill them, like any other cow to the slaughter.



Again, the killing is a producer thing, not a common life philosophy held by anyone but the most pessimistic.


----------



## KaosDevice (May 19, 2006)

What I find odd is the producers have said on many occasions 'the island is NOT Purgatory'. Yet here we are in a situation that is very purgatory like, espescially in terms of the whole 'life issues resolution' thing. Add on to that the whole Purgatory theme that seems to be a big component of 'Bad Twin' and I wonder if the producers are either second guessing themselves or just were deliberately blowing hot air when they kept up with the whole 'there is nothing supernatural here' thing.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 19, 2006)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> However, if that's true, we don't know what Libby's issues really were, let alone if they were resolved by an abortive picnic, so why did she die? Also, how do the deaths of the Others, killed by Ana Lucia and Mr. Eko, fit into that theory? Or for that matter, the guy Ana threw into the pit that was really from the flight but killed by an Other?



The rule only seems to apply to castaways that we've really gotten to know over several episodes. The fact that we don't see Libby come to resolution, if you're a supporter of this theory, throws a great deal of suspicion on her as an Other.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 19, 2006)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> The rule only seems to apply to castaways that we've really gotten to know over several episodes. The fact that we don't see Libby come to resolution, if you're a supporter of this theory, throws a great deal of suspicion on her as an Other.



Or that they needed to write her and Anna Lucia off because of the DUI. No matter what spin actors and producers put on their deaths, both of their plot lines were way to rushed to tie up the loose ends. They needed them off the show and they used Micheals impulsivness and low WIS to do.


----------



## Mimic (May 19, 2006)

Is it me or did every person on that plane lose about 50 IQ points between seasons?

Lets look at Micheal first.

1) These people took Walt.
2) These people shot at him and his friends.
3) These people blew up his raft and left him to die in the ocean.
4) It was fairly obvious that they sent him the computer messages (or let Walt do it.) They knew where he was going to be and when. It was an obvious trap in hindsight.
5) They held him prisoner for at least a week and never let him see Walt.

So of course when they say that they will let him and Walt go free, he believes them. Micheal has zero reasons to believe that they are telling the truth. I understand the whole 'I will do whatever I can for a loved one' thing but come on.

Kate. 
After being captured by the others she must have heard the one guy tell Zeke that they captured 'another one' and yet fails to come to the conclusion that this might be information worth sharing. Not even mentioning the time they discovered another hatch and didn't tell anyone about it.

Ecco and Locke
No one else is telling anyone about the hatches they find so I guess it ok to keep up the trend. Even though the stuff they find is of huge importance but I guess telling everyone that they are being watched really isn't that big of a deal.

Charlie
Yes lets inject yourself with some drugs that you have absolutely no idea as to what it does, too bad you don't have a doctor that might you know, have a clue.

Jack
Sure lets agree with someone who obviously isn't playing with a full deck decide on who they are going to take on this little rescue party. Because nothing says stealth like a big fat guy. (Don't get me wrong, I like Hugo but quiet and stealthy he is not.)

I loved the first season of Lost but this season has taken a 180 degree turn, if they don't do something spectatular for the last episode I will not be watching any more.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 19, 2006)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> ...for the character's who's demons have been purged, they're probably flying up, not down...




Don't fool yourself - no one flies up. Ever.



			
				Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Of course, that raises some interesting and/or disturbing questions about Boone's death...




You mean, you didn't see the episode where he and Locke... Never mind.



			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> ...the killing is a producer thing, not a common life philosophy held by anyone but the most pessimistic.




Says you. I my experience most people _do_ operate under that life philosophy, they just lie to themselves and others about it.

In any event, I still say 99% of what is going on is just distractions and mind games on part of Hanso to control people, and most of the mysteries will turn out to be dead ends. Its all just a sad and mad game for a billionare.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 19, 2006)

Mimic said:
			
		

> Kate.
> After being captured by the others she must have heard the one guy tell Zeke that they captured 'another one' and yet fails to come to the conclusion that this might be information worth sharing. Not even mentioning the time they discovered another hatch and didn't tell anyone about it.




Well, they did capture Walt, so even if she heard the guy say we captured another one, she might have only assumed they meant Walt. Of course, she had her head in a burlap sack and was probably panicked (even for cool Kate), so maybe she didn't hear him say anything.

Not saying anything about the other hatch until much later (IIRC, she did mention it finally) is really stupid, I agree.



> Ecco and Locke
> No one else is telling anyone about the hatches they find so I guess it ok to keep up the trend. Even though the stuff they find is of huge importance but I guess telling everyone that they are being watched really isn't that big of a deal.




I assume that Locke is embarrassed by what he now sees as himself being a big fool, and so that's why he didn't mention it. He hasn't seemingly talked to anyone since he returned (Jack said they hadn't seen Locke or Eko, and Charlie and Claire didn't know where Eko was either).

Eko tends to keep things to himself also. 

Not very conducive conduct to having people stay together and be merry and survive on a seemingly deserted island, to be sure, but not out of character for them. I wouldn't say its any change from their characterization from last season.

Definitely kind of dumb, though.


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## Hand of Evil (May 19, 2006)

Mimic said:
			
		

> Because nothing says stealth like a big fat guy. (Don't get me wrong, I like Hugo but quiet and stealthy he is not.)



Hugo is "spry" and has show he can go the distanance, remember the Numbers show.


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## eris404 (May 19, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I dont know. I just know that according to Amazon.com the LOST DVD Release Date is October 3, 2006. I had hoped for something much sooner, but that will be about the time the new season starts.




I think all of the TV people are mad...Veronica Mars Season 2 doesn't come out until August I think. I mean, you'd think they'd want people who missed these seasons to get caught up so that they could watch Season 3 in the fall. I guess not. 



			
				The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> In the mean time, what to watch, what to watch... Hrm...
> Girls Gone Wilder, Vol. 8




For some reason I saw that as Girls Gene Wilder.


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## Mimic (May 19, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Well, they did capture Walt, so even if she heard the guy say we captured another one, she might have only assumed they meant Walt. Of course, she had her head in a burlap sack and was probably panicked (even for cool Kate), so maybe she didn't hear him say anything.




That is true, there is a chance that she might not have heard it. As for Ecco and Locke I agree they are very secretive but still that is a pretty big chunk of info not to let the others in on.



			
				Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Hugo is "spry" and has show he can go the distanance, remember the Numbers show.




Don't get me wrong, I like Hugo, good actor, great character but really you are going out to save your son. Do you take Hugo or Sayid?

I really want to like the show but the supension of disbelief they are asking for is getting way out there. I mean really give me something to work with here, a simple 5 second shot with Ms. Clue and one of the others talking about drugging Micheal into being more co-operative would have done wonders.


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## KaosDevice (May 19, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> In any event, I still say 99% of what is going on is just distractions and mind games on part of Hanso to control people, and most of the mysteries will turn out to be dead ends. Its all just a sad and mad game for a billionare.




In all actuality I would kind of like that. If at the end of everything they turned it back at the viewers with 'Aha! All those paterns you thought you were seeing? It was all in your head, this was a series of random and unpleasant events!'

*sigh* Good times...good times...


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## Arnwyn (May 19, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> or just were deliberately blowing hot air when they kept up with the whole 'there is nothing supernatural here' thing.



Well, I think this much is patently obvious. There is no question that there's either something supernatural/paranormal or superscience-related going on - it's been proven this season. The producers telling us otherwise? Pffft. Whatever.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (May 19, 2006)

I think the reason I can overlook some of the plot holes that have been pointed out from time to time is that I really like some of the characters.  It's the exact opposite of my reaction to BSG.  I began to have major problems with the plots and since I didn't care about a single character on the show I had no incentive to keep watching.


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## Richards (May 20, 2006)

Getting back to the "if you resolve your issues on the island, you die" discussion a dozen or so posts upstream, what about Arnst from season one?  He was a somewhat significant player for two episodes in a row, and he certainly hadn't resolved his anger at not being in with the "in crowd" when he "got blowed up real good."

If the "resolve personal issues means death" is in fact a given on the island, it's certainly not the only way you can get yourself killed.

Johnathan


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## RangerWickett (May 20, 2006)

Richards said:
			
		

> Getting back to the "if you resolve your issues on the island, you die" discussion a dozen or so posts updtream, what about Arnst from season one?  He was a somewhat significant player for two episodes in a row, and he certainly hadn't resolved his anger at not being in with the "in crowd" when he "got blowed up real good."
> 
> If the "resolve personal issues means death" is in fact a given on the island, it's certainly not the only way you can get yourself killed.
> 
> Johnathan





You kidding? He got to hang with the big boys. He _was_ part of the in crowd. Then he a'splodified!


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 20, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> What I find odd is the producers have said on many occasions 'the island is NOT Purgatory'. Yet here we are in a situation that is very purgatory like, espescially in terms of the whole 'life issues resolution' thing. Add on to that the whole Purgatory theme that seems to be a big component of 'Bad Twin' and I wonder if the producers are either second guessing themselves or just were deliberately blowing hot air when they kept up with the whole 'there is nothing supernatural here' thing.



Or folks on this board are being too literal with the thematic concepts in the story. Yes, there is a Purgatory element in Bad Twin and the show, but it's simply that, thematic.


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## EricNoah (May 20, 2006)

But isn't the best metaphor one that is literally true??


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## Phoenix8008 (May 20, 2006)

Well, I was a big follower of the Purgatory theory myself. In fact, right after Anna Lucia said that she was unable to kill Henry I turned to my wife and said "She's next to die. Her issues are resolved." And then, *BANG!* she's dead. I was hopping with excitement! "Did you see that? I said she was gonna buy the farm but I didn't expect it to be that quick..." *BANG! BANG!* Libby goes down, clearly not with issues resolved. "It's okay" I told myself. "She's not dead. He shot her through the blankets and those slowed the bullets down enough so she'll live." And then she stays unconcious until right before death and obviously isn't at peace as she croaks. *KWOOOOSH* That flushing sound you're hearing is the Purgatory theory going down the crapper.

I figure that's all her death was supposed to do. Kill that theory dead. They got us into a pattern we thought we could rely on, then yanked the rug right out from under our feet. Now nobody's safe and anybody could be gone without resolution! What if Locke dies and we never find out what the heck happened to his legs?! What if Hugo dies and we never find out why he was nicknamed Hurley?! It's kinda like the panic Han Solo went through in the begining of the New Jedi Order series. After so many adventures where you all live happilly ever after by the skin of your teeth, when somebody close to you finally kicks the bucket it makes you wonder how safe you and your other loved ones really are. Hasta la vista, charmed life! On the opposite side though, if that theory is dead now, then that might mean that well liked characters like Charlie can still stick around for awile.

Anyway, overall it was a so-so episode. Like lots of others, I was put off some by the re-hash of what we already knew. I could have just watched the last 15 minutes and gotten the whole episode worth of new info. Personally, I wonder where Locke is off to? Something about the way he left just didn't seem like he was just headed back to the hatch or anywhere normal. The way he walked off hitching his backpack up seemed to imply a longer journey ahead. Can't wait for next Wednesday to see alot of new info and a good wrap up for the season.


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## Taelorn76 (May 20, 2006)

Is next weeks going to be two hours long, or is it going to be one hour special and then a one hour season finale?


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## TwistedBishop (May 20, 2006)

It looks like the Reckoning recap at 8pm and then a two hour finale from 9pm to 11pm.


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## Fast Learner (May 20, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Or that they needed to write her and Anna Lucia off because of the DUI. No matter what spin actors and producers put on their deaths, both of their plot lines were way to rushed to tie up the loose ends. They needed them off the show and they used Micheals impulsivness and low WIS to do.



Minor spoiler for next season that puts a hole in that theory: 



Spoiler



The actress who plays Libby will be seen in multiple people's flashbacks next season. Even though she's doing her own show, we will learn about her involvement in multiple people's backstories.


 Which seems pretty unlikely if it was the DUI thing.


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## Fast Learner (May 20, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Says you. I my experience most people _do_ operate under that life philosophy, they just lie to themselves and others about it.



Says you. In my experience most people who pretend to operate under that philosophy actually believe in much, much more, but are simply afraid to admit it. So, y'know, different perspectives.


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## Taelorn76 (May 20, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> It looks like the Reckoning recap at 8pm and then a two hour finale from 9pm to 11pm.



 Wow so a full three hours of Lost, nice


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## dravot (May 20, 2006)

Richards said:
			
		

> Getting back to the "if you resolve your issues on the island, you die" discussion a dozen or so posts updtream, what about Arnst from season one?  He was a somewhat significant player for two episodes in a row, and he certainly hadn't resolved his anger at not being in with the "in crowd" when he "got blowed up real good."



I must say that was one of the best moments in broadcast teevee EVAR.


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## majustismp15 (May 21, 2006)

I don't want to sound like one of the many pessimistic LOST haters, but I do have a question that perhaps on of you fine posters can answer:

How was Michael able to find his way using a compass? The fact that there is a huge Magnetic field being generated near his point of origin, how can he hope to use a compass?
The B-field produced by the hatch is WAY strong than that of earth's, so really I would assume that the compass would point to the hatch (or away depending on the field).

So does that mean the engineers set up the hatch to have such a strong B-field that it will line up a faux magnetic north? 

After typing it, I realized not everybody would know what a B-field is, it's physics talk for Magnetic field...


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 21, 2006)

In other words, the hatch is the magnetic north pole (of the island) and everywhere else is south, when you're standing at the hatch?

That makes sense and does make for a good question. How far does the field extend, though?


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## dravot (May 21, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> In other words, the hatch is the magnetic north pole (of the island) and everywhere else is south, when you're standing at the hatch?
> 
> That makes sense and does make for a good question. How far does the field extend, though?




Is the field on all the time?


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## Steverooo (May 21, 2006)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Don't know if Scott (Steve?) had any issues to overcome, though.




Steve...  THEY KILLED STEVE!!!   Or Swimmer-Girl!


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## GSHamster (May 21, 2006)

Magnetism follows an inverse square law.  So as you get farther away, its strength drops off rapidly.  Double the distance away, the field is at a quarter strength.

So unless the magnet is *crazy* strong, it really shouldn't affect things outside the hatch, or wherever it is.


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## dravot (May 22, 2006)

GSHamster said:
			
		

> Magnetism follows an inverse square law.  So as you get farther away, its strength drops off rapidly.  Double the distance away, the field is at a quarter strength.
> 
> So unless the magnet is *crazy* strong, it really shouldn't affect things outside the hatch, or wherever it is.




Yup.  I forgot to bring that up.  Didn't they discover in the first season that their compass wasn't working?  They were somewhere in the interior of the island.


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## GSHamster (May 22, 2006)

dravot said:
			
		

> Yup.  I forgot to bring that up.  Didn't they discover in the first season that their compass wasn't working?  They were somewhere in the interior of the island.




Hmm.  You are correct. I forgot about that.  Not sure why the compass works all of a sudden.  Or maybe the first compass is broken, or they were too close to the magnet.


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## RangerWickett (May 22, 2006)

GSHamster said:
			
		

> Hmm.  You are correct. I forgot about that.  Not sure why the compass works all of a sudden.  Or maybe the first compass is broken, or they were too close to the magnet.




Actually, the way I saw it, Michael was aware the compass didn't work, and he was navigating based on that fact. I'd have to see a screenshot to be sure, but he was supposed to head north, and I'm pretty sure the compass needle wasn't pointing the direction he was heading.


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## Fast Learner (May 22, 2006)

I just reviewed that little section and it seems that he looks at his compass, sees that north is off to his diagonal left, and then heads exactly in that direction.

Which leads to another possibility: Michael's an idiot and ran into the Others (including the peeing one) by accident. He was supposed to go north to the "rock" with the hole in it, but my guess is he's just wandering. If it wasn't an accident, the Others needed to track the moron down.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 22, 2006)

I just think the magnetic field doesn't cover the entire island.  In the first season, they just happened to be closer to the magnetic field then Michael was at when he used the compass.


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## KaosDevice (May 22, 2006)

I wonder if the magnetic field is tied to the whole 'cerbrus security system' maybe it follows buried lines that the system uses to get around the island.


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