# Weem’s DM Tips for RP Prompting and Immersion



## weem (May 11, 2010)

*Weem’s DM Tips for RP Prompting and Immersion*

Many of us would like to see more role-playing out of one or more of our players, and for good reason. These are role-playing games after all. We are seeking to immerse ourselves in alternate worlds and essentially let our imaginations take over for an evening.

But the benefits of a rich RP experience do more than simply allow you to be a hero (or perhaps a villain?) for a night. They have a way of helping resolve other common problems DM’s face that in some cases may not initially seem related to a lack of role-playing or deep enough character immersion.

I practice a lot of what I call “RP Prompting” in my games. These are techniques I have used to draw my players into deeper role-playing or to help them become more attached or immersed in their characters’ story. Most of my planning time (which, in total, equates to 3-5 hours the night before the game) involves thinking of ways to initiate RP prompts, and ways to draw attention to the importance of their characters in the story. They drive the story, and I always have a general idea of where they are heading. My improvisation skills are what I consider my strong point, and so that means I can focus more(most) of my time on the RP/Immersion aspects of my games.

A quick disclaimer before I start. Some of these tips you will have used, some may not work that well in your group and others may have you scratching your head. I make no assumptions about how well these will work for you – rather I simply want to share what works for me and my groups. This list does not cover everything I do, but it does cover the ones I feel are the most important/effective tools.

Character Foreground

One of the things we (in general) focus on initially when we think of role-playing is character backgrounds. Going into great detail with character backgrounds can be good, and even works for me for the most part, but when it comes to helping produce good RP opportunities in game, I like to create what I call a Character Foreground instead, and I like for my players to do this as well.

Character foregrounds, as opposed to backgrounds, focus entirely on the here and now. I tend to think of it as “what have I been doing the last day or two that lead me to hook up with this group”. Here is a quick example I used in another thread recently…



> DM: What about you, what's your background?
> 
> ME: "Me? Until a few minutes ago, I was standing on the corner holding three of my teeth in my hand. This town almost took my life about an hour ago when two men jumped me behind the tavern. This cut on my face? as you can see, it's fresh! I have no money, no friends, and no future. I heard these guys offering people money to help them clear out a basement? I mean, are you kidding me? I'm thinking hell yea... at this point, I would scrape barnacles off the pier for a whole day if I could get a drink at the end of the night"




So that's a quick example. It covers nothing of my characters’ life from more than a day ago, which leaves plenty of topics for conversation later (aka RP-ing) in-game. I may have some of the background information written down, but it would be in a very basic format (a few sentences maybe – just something to prompt me when asked, but not so much that I am bound by anything).

Help Create Unique “Outisde of the Box” Character Aspects

I want my players to be attached to their characters. I want them to care if they live or die. Whenever I can help create this connection, I do it.

One of the ways I accomplish this is to work with players to give their characters some unique aspect(s) that are for this character only. If the Elf Ranger dies, and rerolls another one, he will no longer have the unique aspect of the previous one. Furthermore, these unique aspects evolve and grow with a character, which often times creates within the player a desire to see where this aspect leads – just how far will it evolve.

Here is one example of how I did this in my current campaign (4th Edition for those who are curious)…

*The Psion*

The player of the Psion (at the time) explained that he saw his character as someone exploring his powers for the first time. He wanted to be someone who could manifest his abilities in ways outside of combat that did not stem from the power cards necessarily. He described a wandering gambler trying to hone his mental powers attempting to pick up the thoughts of others, and to try and "push" his thoughts into other's minds.

Of course, he has a power that allows him to basically do this, but he talked of it going a step further - allowing him to persuade people in a way, to get them to think something of his choosing. He understood that this kind of thing would be spotty and that for a while it could be as much of a problem for him as it could be a benefit (it might return false info, or he may end up sharing thoughts he didn’t want to share).

He liked the idea, and I was already full of ideas for the role.

Examples in play...

- In the first game, while watching someone in the forest, I let him know he was getting a sense for the thoughts of the person. He asked what he was picking up and learned that the person seemed anxious and was wondering when everyone would arrive.

- In the second game, someone in a tavern was giving him and the PC's some grief and he said out loud something I don't recall specifically, but it was something along the lines of "yea, big help", and in a very sarcastic way. So I asked him, "did you say that out loud?" and he said, "no"... so I replied, "well that was odd... you didn't say it out loud, but he seemed to hear 'something' that irritated him, and he looked around right as you thought that". So, the player understood his emotional reaction, while internal, had 'leaked' into the NPC's mind - he even said, "oops, I need to watch that".


Realistically Meaningless Actions

One of the things in life that occurs all the time but rarely makes it into movies or tv shows (or our games) are the little gestures we make, or things we say that go nowhere or have no importance to the current conversation. When we don’t include these things from time to time, it can feel like any action, no matter how small, MUST be important to the story. Otherwise, why employ it.

By bringing these aspects of life into you game you can not only add a bit of reality to your game, but you can also use it as a tool to draw attention to character aspects that will help a player with character immersion.

SIDE NOTE: _I would quickly mention two shows that immediately come to mind that did things like this (focused, very briefly on things that were insignificant to the story, but gave you tiny bits of insight into their characters) – “Seinfeld” and “Rosanne”._

One example is to have an NPC call attention to something (naturally in conversation) that is part of a player’s character. It can be just about anything, and can include things the player never detailed, like a tunic, or the presence of leaves and webs on their for example...



> NPC to PLAYER 1: "You have some crud on yer back my friend", he steps to your side and brushes off what appears to be a few leafs and webs, "You must have been walking through the brush."




It adds a bit of realism or life to a conversation (which is great on its own merit). More importantly, it also calls out character details that will likely illicit a response of some kind, of which the player will feel more compelled to answer from the characters point of view (in my experience) since attention was drawn to it in-game.

The great thing about this is they are easy to come up with on the fly, and done very quickly.

SIDE NOTE: _Something quick like this is especially nice when the room gets quiet during a PC to NPC conversation - use it to fill those long silent moments while a PC ponders his/her next actions, etc._

Special Character Insight

I will sometimes give players insights into their environment based on their race, or class etc by drawing their attention to something that would not otherwise be noticed (generally because we feel it's not important enough to). That doesn't mean it has to be important though - much of my smaller RP interactions like these mean nothing mechanically to the game.

For example, I might tell the group as they enter a clearing in the woods…



> "The cluster of trees begins to part just head of you and eventually you step into a clearing".



It's a simple descriptive statement aimed at everyone in general, but not very special.

Instead, I might translate the same information to everyone by showing it to them from the eyes of just one of the party members as well. For example, instead of the above descriptive text aimed at everyone, I may instead turn (physically turn my body) and face the Elf of the group...



> "This place is as peaceful of an area as you have visited in a while. Your comfort with the natural essence around you allows you a read on the path ahead - you are quickly approaching a clearing"




This puts the player into the head of his character. He knows his character has learned this because of who he is. At this point, I think most players will feel prompted to say something - again, from their characters point of view - maybe warning the players to stop before the clearing, or maybe telling them it would be a good place to rest. Either way, there is a prompt there.

It also had the added bonus of giving that player a connection to an aspect of his character that makes him unique from the others in the group. These are things (unique aspects and attention) that I think players (including myself) really enjoy. They connect you to your character and help pull you into them. It effectively sharpens the image in your mind of your character which is great for prompting more RP from a player. 

Using “Voices”

One of the things people new to RP-ing avoid most frequently is using voices for the characters. In fact, many veterans do as well. I won’t go into detail regarding the proper amounts or styles that should be used – my thinking is they are best used in moderation. Instead, I want to focus quickly on making voices work with regards to RP prompting and character immersion.

As a DM, characters not using voices (that aren’t theirs naturally) does not bother me one bit – but I do want the players to speak from their characters perspective, and by using voices myself, it’s a natural prompt for the player to respond from said perspective. When they speak from the perspective of their character, they are being further immersed in his/her reality. 

For most of my NPC’s, I simply use my own voice. But there are a number of ways to give your own voice unique aspects.

Talking faster or slower than normal
Stuttering
Awkward pauses (accompanying these with eye gestures helps too… looking down for example, or even hand gestures… scratching your head or chest)

* Don’t Say Uh*

When you are speaking as an NPC, do not use “Uh” or “Um” unless the NPC is actually undecided or unprepared for something. This is very different than YOU, the DM being unprepared.

For example, if a player asks an NPC, “Where were you born?”, the NPC should not respond with “Uhhh… hmmm… here actually”. He knows where he was born more than likely, and if not, then that would be the answer “I’m not sure” – either way, those answers come to people immediately. When you indicate out-loud in this fashion that you are not prepared, often times players are immediately extracted from the immersion you had going. It takes some work to get back to it.

If you need a moment to think, give yourself a moment by demonstrating SOME kind of reaction while you think.

EX:



> PC: “Where were you born?”
> DM: The man looks at you and cocks an eyebrow as if trying to decide what it matters to you! Eventually he responds, “I was born here, what’s it to ya?”




 Rewarding RP (Fate Point Cards)

Back in February I created some Fate Point Cards to hand out to my players as a reward for good role-playing. The idea of pulling Aspects from FATE into 4e was not my own, but was something I really liked. As I mentioned, getting more RP from my players is one of my primary goals.

More about the cards and how it works can be found here on EN World.


And Done.

The goal in my games is to get the players immersed in the game at hand and in their characters lives, and to remain immersed as long as possible. All games include moments of stepping in and out of this immersion, but in my experience, the longer you can stay “in” the better the game is and the more connected the players feel to their characters, their story, and what is essentially their world.

Congratulations if you made it this far, well done and thanks for reading! I hope one or more of these ideas can help you in some way with your own game.

*Please feel free to share any feedback or questions about these, or even share your own tips and ideas!*


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## rusty2667 (May 11, 2010)

I like the foreground idea. So often as players, we like to take the Freudian approach by detailing a character's childhood. While this may affect a character's general outlook, it does little for directing a PrC's initial, immediate actions. Thanks!


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## weem (May 11, 2010)

rusty2667 said:


> I like the foreground idea. So often as players, we like to take the Freudian approach by detailing a character's childhood. While this may affect a character's general outlook, it does little for directing a PrC's initial, immediate actions. Thanks!




Yea.

That foreground information is immediately needed. The rest can come with time, and in fact leaving it a little open allows for a lot of RP wiggle room as you go. It's really cool to bring that creative process INTO the game. On top of that, some people just have a harder time than others setting up those deep, far reaching backgrounds anyway.

I kind of look at it like the bottom-up approach to world building... develop it as you go, as it is needed.

Thanks for reading through all of that - it's nice to see it provided something for you 

<edit> Welcome to EN World as well! </edit>


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## Oryan77 (May 11, 2010)

weem said:


> If you need a moment to think, give yourself a moment by demonstrating SOME kind of reaction while you think.




This tip is exactly what I do and I never thought of it as being something worth mentioning. But you're right, it is important and it does work! 

My wife tends to be the one that constantly asks the most random questions to NPCs when we're playing. It will be something that is not important at all, but she'll find an NPC interesting & will want to know more about this person, even when I just created that NPC right then & there. So I'm taken by surprise a lot and I stall for time by doing pretty much what you suggested. It does help keep the roleplaying going without killing the mood.

Focusing on the background and foreground issue, I'd like to offer some more advice by adding futureground as being important....it's a word, trust me, I wouldn't say it if it wasn't a real word.

What I mean is, if a player creates a backstory, then use it. Implement some portion of the backstory into the game no matter how small of a role it plays. Even if it has nothing to do with the current adventure, it will still liven up the world and make it seem more real. Not only does this get the player of that PC more interested in the PC, the other players usually get interested in that PC also. If planned out right, it should hopefully get the PC talking and the player roleplaying. And when the other players are blind-sided by this scenario, they might even be curious enough to join in just to figure out what in the world is going on. 

Here's an example of this from some recent sessions of ours:

I recently introduced a Paladin NPC who was the leader of the Cleric PCs old Holy Order (according to his History). The other players had no clue who this Paladin was, and the Cleric player was surprised to see him in game. So he enjoyed being able to discuss his history with the NPC and tell the other PCs who the guy was. And of course, my wife was intrigued and started talking to the Paladin. When I described the Paladin as having a handle-bar mustache, my wife's PC began telling him that he needs to shave that thing off or trim it down. Everyone laughed about it, tried really hard to convince him to shave it off, and he just kept explaining that women from his country find it to be a turn on and he does quite well with the ladies. We had some good roleplaying fun and then moved on with the game.

The Paladin joined the group on the current adventure, and now the Cleric has a personal friend to relate to since he's the only non chaotic PC in the group. A few sessions later, the chaotic PCs got into some mischief again that embarrassed the Cleric again, and upset the Paladin. So I had the Paladin tell my wife's PC that he'll shave off his mustache right then and there if she'll promise not to steal from a merchant again, or at least while in his presence. Focusing back on the mustache amused the group and they all got a kick out of it. This led back to another 15-20 minutes of immersed roleplaying and had absolutely nothing to do with the adventure. But it helps get people more involved with their PC and hopefully gives them a feeling for how their PC acts; which should help encourage them to roleplay thier character in the future on their own.


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## Janx (May 12, 2010)

Good ideas.  I need to spread some XP around before....


I like to keep the game moving at a brisk pace.  if things slow down, players tend to fall out of immersion. 

So I run fights at a faster pace, by talk faster, and not letting players dawdle.

If the players spend too long in the planning stage, I bring in an outside stimulus to provoke them into action.  Like the guards are coming.

This affects the immersion, because when things get slow, attention drifts, and players stop paying attention. Once that happens, immersion is lost.

I also encourage speaking in character.  Not necesarily with a funny accent, but to use language and mannerism the way your character would, rather than a stereotype of a modern street thug.

When I write my session material, I always try to make it directly tie into what a PC was planning on working on, or as a repercussion of what they did previously.  The first sessions is hard to do that, since there's no "past material", but after the 3rd session or so, there's usually been enough to reveal a lot of great plot hooks.

The result is, I don't have to keep writing "Quests to save the Princess" adventures.  Instead, I can write material to support "Jean Pierre lied about what happened at the pier, and got promoted.  Now, somebody has come forward with an accusation.  Will Jean Pierre's secret be revealed at the inquest?"

This gets immersion, because the game story is about the player's PC, and builds off of what decisions they made in previous games.


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## weem (May 12, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> Focusing on the background and foreground issue, I'd like to offer some more advice by adding futureground as being important....it's a word, trust me, I wouldn't say it if it wasn't a real word.
> 
> What I mean is, if a player creates a backstory, then use it. Implement some portion of the backstory into the game no matter how small of a role it plays. Even if it has nothing to do with the current adventure, it will still liven up the world and make it seem more real. Not only does this get the player of that PC more interested in the PC, the other players usually get interested in that PC also. If planned out right, it should hopefully get the PC talking and the player roleplaying. And when the other players are blind-sided by this scenario, they might even be curious enough to join in just to figure out what in the world is going on.




Good advice there, thanks for sharing!



Janx said:


> I like to keep the game moving at a brisk pace.  if things slow down, players tend to fall out of immersion.
> 
> So I run fights at a faster pace, by talk faster, and not letting players dawdle.
> 
> ...




Yea, pacing is really important. Mine could be better at times for sure - it's something I'm working on... kind of... 

<edit> I have to spread some butter before dishing it to you guys - sorry  </edit>


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## Desdichado (May 12, 2010)

*Create inter-character links before play starts*

I did this via randomization; i.e. players had to draw names of other players' characters out of a hat.

Each character writes a small vignitte, not too unlike the foreground idea above, although it does't need to have happened in the quite so immediate past.  Then, the players who draw that characters name have to add how _their_ character was involved.

A couple of quick examples from my recent(ish) Demons in the Mist game.


> *Original Story*. A young Vuukran, a raw recruit of the fabled Red Legion, traveled to the frontier of the Xoth-Sarnath Empire alongside his shield-brothers to put down a secession instigated by a power hungry local governor. Double-crosses and triple-crosses alike took place as various factions within the Red Legion rebelled or sided with the separatists. While he escaped with his life after murdering the famous general who lead his battalion into certain death at the hands of co-consipirators, Vuukran's youthful ideals and patriotism were among the casualties left to die on a blood-soaked island in the Massacre at Kashalnev.
> 
> *The addition by another player*. Shautha had been hired by the governor to aid his secession attempt. During the almost comedic complexity of the backstabbing and double-crossing, she found herself on the side of a small contingent of the Red Legion, fighting against a much larger insurgent force. There, she met Vuukran and was impressed by his ferocity and ability to barf at the sight of blood.





> *The original story.* Shautha is living a peaceful life in her home village when suddenly it is attacked by masked humanoids. During the battle, her rages first come to light and she travels to the nearby lowlands to learn more about her ability and find an animal guide. She also searches for the cause of the attack.
> 
> *The other player's addition.*  It was supposed to be a simple job; get in, take out the target, wipe out the village full of filthy peasants surrounding the target, and get out. Vuukran was surprised by the young girl's ferocity, and still bears the scar she left him from neck to navel. Half an inch closer, and his days would have come to an early end.
> 
> *A second player's addition.*  Lash is a mate on a ship that Shautha is a passenger on. He breaks up a fight between her and another passenger, and ends up striking up a friendship with the half-orc. He's secretly envious of the half-orc's ability to channel and use her anger, while Lash's anger usually controls him.






> *Original story* Lash’s eyes narrowed as he watched dice bounce. The way they landed seems just a touch funny and they spun just a touch too long.
> 
> “Six Crowns,” his opponent drawled, “Your luck just isn’t in tonight, Hobgoblin.” Lash glanced down at his pile and realized he’d just managed to lose almost his entire share of the last haul. Lash felt the Rage begin to rise. It was a familiar feeling, one that he was trying to control, but the combination of realizing he was being cheated along with the fact he’d just lost what he’d been counting on to convince Madame di Vicenta to finance a boat made him welcome it tonight. Lash scanned the crowd marked those who were his friends and those, now obvious, who were backing the cheater. The odds were against him, but he liked long odds, it was how he got here in the first place.
> 
> ...



Anyway, and so on.  That campaign was one of the best, most immersive roleplaying experiences I've had, in part because they had such an anchor not only to their own characters, but to each other as well.  There was a complicated web of suggested relationships that predated the campaign itself, and it was fodder for all kinds of banter, background information, character development and more.  I'll never run another game without going through that exercise ever again.


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## buddhafrog (May 12, 2010)

So many helpful tips for this new DM.  Great posts everyone, thanks.

I also use the Foreground aspects most days we start playing.  I or a player will quickly recap where we are, etc, but then I ask each player exactly what they are doing.  They've learned that they have to be very specific in their detail.  Sometimes if the game break was after a particularly terrifying or deadly battle, I'll place the party around a fire, eating their dinner, and ask them to tell what the PC is quietly feeling - what fears/anxiety/hope they are pondering and keeping to themselves.  I've found this is a quick way to immediately get into character again and re-start our roleplaying.


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## weem (May 12, 2010)

Hobo said:


> *Create inter-character links before play starts*
> 
> I did this via randomization; i.e. players had to draw names of other players' characters out of a hat.
> 
> ...




That's a cool way of handling that. I have seen others who ask their players to work out their backgrounds, and then to details how they know 1 or more of the other players, but this is a more interesting way of achieving that I think - that you have to work yourself into a specific situation, etc.

Very nice, thanks for sharing Hobo!



buddhafrog said:


> Sometimes if the game break was after a particularly terrifying or deadly battle, I'll place the party around a fire, eating their dinner, and ask them to tell what the PC is quietly feeling - what fears/anxiety/hope they are pondering and keeping to themselves.  I've found this is a quick way to immediately get into character again and re-start our roleplaying.




Nice! That sounds fun, and it seems like an interesting way to segway from combat to the more relaxed, RP-focused environment.

Hmmm... this has me thinking of some ideas... thanks for sharing 

<edit> Arrgh... I guess I have already given you both XP recently as well... </edit>


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## TikkchikFenTikktikk (May 12, 2010)

Bookmarked. Nice.

I've recently learned to roleplay more during combat because my D&D Encounters DM is running the sessions like a boardgame.

I've come up with a combat gimmick for my Githzerai Monk, Dak. He fights with a bottle of wine in his hand. (Monk's don't need to spend their starting 100g on armor, weapons, or books, so I spent all of mine on wine bottles). His signature move is the _Drunken Monkey._

When it is Dak's turn, I no longer just say "Dak uses _Drunken Monkey_ to move next to the zombie, then attacks it" with a quick attack roll and damage roll. Instead I stay in character and say something like "I was taking a pull off the bottle when the corruption zombie hit me with that mote of corruption. That bastard's gonna pay! Stumbling into my _Drunken Monkey_ form, I lurch through the crowd to shove the broken bottle's neck down his!" Rolls to hit and damage. Etc., etc., if I hit or miss.

Another flavor enhancer is that sometimes Dak is finishing up a bottle as combat is entered, and he'll throw it at a target as an improvised ranged attack, especially if it isn't a tactically sound move.

On paper it looks like this would slow down the game, but it actually makes 4E feel much less grindy and much more cinematic.

Having players develop in-character combat rituals (like a baseball player's superstitions, not like actual in game magic rituals), catch phrases, and personalized descriptions of what their powers actually do and look like in-game really keeps that immersion going through what can be the biggest role-playing mood-destroyer in the game.

The flavor text on a power should be treated with equal importance to the power's effects!


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## Blastin (May 13, 2010)

TikkchikFenTikktikk said:


> Bookmarked. Nice.
> 
> I've recently learned to roleplay more during combat because my D&D Encounters DM is running the sessions like a boardgame.
> 
> ...




 As a DM I have been trying to encourage this type of description as well. If the player just does the "I hit and do <blagh> damage." I might give it a quick description of what happened to the target. 

I have a difficult group for this, as two are casual players and new to the group, and another doesn't really like 4E and keeps making "funny" comments, out of character, that pull everyone out of the immersion. 

I'm going to try a few of the things here to try and encourage the players a bit. I'm worried that if I can't get them interested in the game as more than just a tactical board game, that I'm gonna get bored myself.


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## Hussar (May 13, 2010)

Wow, great stuff here.  Off to work, but, definitely want to read more.


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## LostSoul (May 13, 2010)

My tip for RP and immersion:

Make sure the details of the game world, the PC's actions, and the NPC's actions have an impact on task resolution.

editz: I like the foreground stuff.  It's very similar to Kickers from Sorcerer, a good technique that works in many games.


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## Hussar (May 13, 2010)

I second, or third as the case may be, the idea of creating intra-party links.  Creating characters should be a group effort.  Sure, you can bring your Dragonborn paladin to the table, but, before we start creating the group, he shouldn't have much more than the barest skeleton of background.

I like the idea of passing around the stories.  Two or three rounds of that and you have a complete party.  I used a CCG card game to build parties to great effect as well.

Honestly, I think one of the biggest mistakes groups can make is to start play before having a very serious conversation about the upcoming campaign.  What does everyone expect and that sort of thing.  Goes so far in building a group effort.


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## weem (May 13, 2010)

TikkchikFenTikktikk said:


> Bookmarked. Nice.




Awesome! Glad you found it useful 



TikkchikFenTikktikk said:


> I've recently learned to roleplay more during combat because my D&D Encounters DM is running the sessions like a boardgame.
> 
> I've come up with a combat gimmick for my Githzerai Monk, Dak. He fights with a bottle of wine in his hand. (Monk's don't need to spend their starting 100g on armor, weapons, or books, so I spent all of mine on wine bottles). His signature move is the _Drunken Monkey._
> 
> When it is Dak's turn, I no longer just say "Dak uses _Drunken Monkey_ to move next to the zombie, then attacks it" with a quick attack roll and damage roll. Instead I stay in character and say something like "I was taking a pull off the bottle when the corruption zombie hit me with that mote of corruption. That bastard's gonna pay! Stumbling into my _Drunken Monkey_ form, I lurch through the crowd to shove the broken bottle's neck down his!" Rolls to hit and damage. Etc., etc., if I hit or miss.




Sounds fun, hehe - thanks for sharing!



Blastin said:


> I'm going to try a few of the things here to try and encourage the players a bit. I'm worried that if I can't get them interested in the game as more than just a tactical board game, that I'm gonna get bored myself.




You mention trying to get them interested and it reminded me of another little post I did not too long ago called "Don't Forget the Excitement (when DM-ing)" you might check out. Basically, I share how I was reminded that the level of excitement my group has is strongly tied to the amount of excitement I bring to the table.

Maybe you are "bringing the excitement" already, but it's something to think about. Focusing on this has done wonders for my game, especially for newer players, or those quieter individuals.



LostSoul said:


> My tip for RP and immersion:
> 
> Make sure the details of the game world, the PC's actions, and the NPC's actions have an impact on task resolution.




A very good tip.



LostSoul said:


> editz: I like the foreground stuff.  It's very similar to Kickers from Sorcerer, a good technique that works in many games.




Cool! I'm not familiar with "Kickers from Sorcerer" so... time to do some searching (or if you/anyone has a handy link that would be great!).



Hussar said:


> Honestly, I think one of the biggest mistakes groups can make is to start play before having a very serious conversation about the upcoming campaign.  What does everyone expect and that sort of thing.  Goes so far in building a group effort.




Yes. Absolutely. I think a good way of doing this is to plan a night to discuss the upcoming game, work on character themes (or even the characters themselves) and generally just BS about the upcoming campaign.

Just 2 nights ago, myself and 4 others got together to work on an upcoming Shadowrun campaign. We had all talked here and there about the characters we wanted to play, but here we got together for 6.5 hours and worked on them together, going over our ideas, plans and goals. The GM of this upcoming campaign was there as well, reading over various books, answering questions and giving us ideas as well as detailing what he had in mind.

Spending a night like this where the focus was on the campaign and the characters really gave us a clear vision of how our characters were going to mesh as well as what we were expecting from the upcoming campaign, and the direction we wanted to go in.

By the end of it, it felt to me like we had already played a few games together - it gave us that kind of connection to our characters and the campaign. We were all on the same page (and now very excited to get started).


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## Kannik (May 13, 2010)

Sweet suggestions, I love this thread.

In my current campaign I basically Foregrounded each character at the start of each chapter/module.  When we started I took each character’s background story (I had told them it had to end with them arriving at a particular town – so they were all there albeit with a variety of motives and histories) and wrote a one-page ‘up to date’ history of the past month.  I was sure to include the relevant material from their backstory, gave important info and hooks into the upcoming adventure* and wrote it as a story including character thoughts, emotions, future plans, etc.  While there could be some concern for crossing the oft-repeated line of “you never tell a player what his character’s think,” because it was based on their backstory and conversations with the player not a single one of them took issue with it.  

As we all sat down around the table I handed them each their page (nicely printed on a parchment background in an appropriate ancient script) and let them read it.  The narrative for each of them ended with a paragraph setting the current scene, which I then laid out and we dove right into that scene.  So the players were taken right from their character’s minds (from the narrative) into the game.  And I’ve done that for every chapter since.  It really works, starting the whole campaign/chapter off on a strong RP footing, and the players love getting that personal attention for their characters.

* I also ensured that elements their backstory was woven into the campaign itself, in ways that didn’t feel forced.  I love it in that it makes my job easier as DM as it gives me ideas for organizations, villains, magic items, themes, etc.   Now the bad guys are using the Cult of the Dragon to supplement their forces, an artifact that had been stolen is being used in a powerful ritual, that the evil befalling the land is profiteering in slaves enrages another character, etc.  

One other technique that I’m using is to before the game write the results of certain known and important insight, perception or other checks onto the back of small cards.  When a player succeeds at one of those checks I’ll give them the card with the result – and then they have to convey it to the rest of the party.  I’ll also make them on the fly too if necessary.  This solves the case of you explaining something to one player (usually when they’re away from the party) and then they get back and say “I saw something... what the DM said.”  Giving them the chance to convey the information opens the opportunity for them to describe it as their character would, and thus be in character.  

Combine the above with special cards for events, things they notice, etc that is unique to their character (ie, someone they recognize, or something only a master stonemason would see) doubles the power of the technique.  }

I fourth (fifth, sixth?) the motion for creative combat descriptions too.  We're still coming to find the best balance between expediency and redundancy, but when it counts I describe for sure (and the player are doing so too now).  

And I've found the addition of mostly-unique "Trade Skills" for each character, or giving each character a specialty, gives each player a greater attachment to their characters and they try to find ways to use that ability or skill, further having them think as their character.  Plus when they pull something off that only they could really do and it comes from their history it makes them cheer.  

Game on!

Kannik


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## Hussar (May 14, 2010)

Kannik said:
			
		

> In my current campaign I basically Foregrounded each character at the start of each chapter/module. When we started I took each character’s background story (I had told them it had to end with them arriving at a particular town – so they were all there albeit with a variety of motives and histories) and wrote a one-page ‘up to date’ history of the past month. I was sure to include the relevant material from their backstory, gave important info and hooks into the upcoming adventure* and wrote it as a story including character thoughts, emotions, future plans, etc. While there could be some concern for crossing the oft-repeated line of “you never tell a player what his character’s think,” because it was based on their backstory and conversations with the player not a single one of them took issue with it.




This does surprise me honestly.  I'm not 100% sure how comfortable I'd be on either side of the screen with this - either as a player having the DM sit in the driver's seat of my character or as the DM driving someone else's character.  

I suppose if the touch is very light, most people wouldn't object.  How much character background do you have to work from?  I tend to be pretty light in the character background area - as a player I generally just do a paragraph or two and as a DM I don't want much more than that.  

Hrm, a thought occurs.  I wonder if I could get my players to rotate this.  Everyone takes someone else's character and does up the summary from that other character's point of view.  Would take the onus off the DM to "get it right" and if you rotate it around every "chapter" the differing views of a character could help a player see  how his character is being perceived.

Ooooo, I like this idea.


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## buddhafrog (May 14, 2010)

> Hrm, a thought occurs.  I wonder if I could get my players to rotate this.  Everyone takes someone else's character and does up the summary from that other character's point of view.  Would take the onus off the DM to "get it right" and if you rotate it around every "chapter" the differing views of a character could help a player see  how his character is being perceived.
> .




Yes, I like this combined suggestion.  I will try it in my game tonight.

Kannik - thanks for the reminder to use note cards to pass along perception or other info to individual characters.  It will help them stay in character and describe what they've perceived.


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## firesnakearies (May 14, 2010)

Great post, weem!  Thanks for sharing this excellent advice.

A lot of good posts in this thread, actually.  I like it.


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## weem (May 14, 2010)

firesnakearies said:


> Great post, weem!  Thanks for sharing this excellent advice.
> 
> A lot of good posts in this thread, actually.  I like it.




Glad you are enjoying it!


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## Kannik (May 14, 2010)

Hussar said:


> This does surprise me honestly.  I'm not 100% sure how comfortable I'd be on either side of the screen with this - either as a player having the DM sit in the driver's seat of my character or as the DM driving someone else's character.
> 
> I suppose if the touch is very light, most people wouldn't object.  How much character background do you have to work from?  I tend to be pretty light in the character background area - as a player I generally just do a paragraph or two and as a DM I don't want much more than that.




Yeah, looking back on it from this perspective I’m almost surprised it worked out as well as it did.  } 

I was fortunate that each player did write a backstory of between one to three pages, so I had a lot to go by.  I read them carefully and managed to nail their ‘headspace’ well, such that mostly what I was doing was putting their creation into a first-person story that was a small recap, wove in the foundation for the campaign to come and reflected that ‘headspace’ of the character such that reading it in first person put them right there into that headspace ready to relate and interact with the game world as the character.  



Hussar said:


> Hrm, a thought occurs.  I wonder if I could get my players to rotate this.  Everyone takes someone else's character and does up the summary from that other character's point of view.  Would take the onus off the DM to "get it right" and if you rotate it around every "chapter" the differing views of a character could help a player see  how his character is being perceived.




Iiiinteresting!  I'd love to hear how that goes...



buddhafrog said:


> Kannik - thanks for the reminder to use note cards to pass along perception or other info to individual characters.  It will help them stay in character and describe what they've perceived.




You’re welcome.  }  It works great... except for that one time when a player just took the card and passed it around.    (I spoke to them afterwards and explained what the card was for... they said OOPS! and was totally into it next time)

Gamingly,

Kannik


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## buddhafrog (May 14, 2010)

Kannik said:


> One other technique that I’m using is to before the game write the results of certain known and important insight, perception or other checks onto the back of small cards.  When a player succeeds at one of those checks I’ll give them the card with the result – and then they have to convey it to the rest of the party.  I’ll also make them on the fly too if necessary.  This solves the case of you explaining something to one player (usually when they’re away from the party) and then they get back and say “I saw something... what the DM said.”  Giving them the chance to convey the information opens the opportunity for them to describe it as their character would, and thus be in character.




I know different people use this technique, but I've never got around to using it (call my lazy).  However, after reading this post I prepared it for my game last night.  The PC's meet a powerful and very important NPC/mentor who they knew was in danger and who might have been killed.  When the PC's saw him, they were thrilled he was alive and were glad to have his support b/c they were in a very tough bind themselves.... except for the fact that one of the PC's perceived something that led him to believe that the NPC ally was actually not himself at all - he was an impostor.  I slipped him the card with the info.  He couldn't directly tell the other PC's b/c the immediate situation was too dangerous to show his hand.  This created a great role playing situation that lasted quite a long time.  It worked wonderfully.  

The PC's were 7th grade students; the looks on all ther faces were priceless, "What?  What is it?!!  What did you see?"  Of course I quickly replied "Anything you say is in real time as your character."  The PC who had the hidden info loved it as well.  He knew the secret the entire scenario and kept looking for ways to either share the info (which I made it very difficult to do with my multiple, urgent NPC's and guards) or find the best time to make a sudden attack - but at great risk to the PC's life.


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## buddhafrog (May 14, 2010)

EDIT: sorry - double post


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## LostSoul (May 15, 2010)

weem said:


> Cool! I'm not familiar with "Kickers from Sorcerer" so... time to do some searching (or if you/anyone has a handy link that would be great!).




They are pretty similar to Foregrounds.  It's what the PC is doing right now that has turned their world upside-down, something that means they can't go back to the status quo.  An "inciting incident".  It's a more involved in Sorcerer since a lot of play and decisions that are made will focus on the Kicker and the resolution of it.


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## weem (May 15, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> They are pretty similar to Foregrounds.  It's what the PC is doing right now that has turned their world upside-down, something that means they can't go back to the status quo.  An "inciting incident".  It's a more involved in Sorcerer since a lot of play and decisions that are made will focus on the Kicker and the resolution of it.




Ahh, I see - thanks. That's interesting.

I just now went and looked around and found this (you already explained, but I thought I would drop this in as well)...



> _Finally, you choose the Kicker – the event or realization that pushes your character into action. It can be finding a suitcase full of money or a mysterious stranger that only appears when no one else can see him. The Kickers are very important to Sorcerer; they make the PCs worth playing._




So in my example, I might say his kicker was that he hit bottom... he was homeless and had nothing, not even food or drink. Something needed to happen now, etc.


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## weem (May 16, 2010)

I wanted to take a minute and thank everyone for the comments, they are much appreciated. This is a bit unorthodox, but I'm going to respond to some comments here...




> rusty2667:
> kudos to working in a Seinfeld reference!




Haha, AND 'Rosanne'! - who would have thought those two would be sharing space in a D&D related post 



> Oryan77:
> Good stuff, but there could have been more nudity to spice things up.
> 
> Jack7:
> I'll second the nudity thing. Otherwise, good ideas.




Next time. I will think about including something next time 



> Jack99:
> Awesome. Should be in DMG3




You're giving me more credit than is deserved, but I appreciate it 



> Fridayknight:
> just right




Awesome! You know, I had this fear that it would be 1) Too much, or 2) Too little, hehehe


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## Prestidigitalis (May 16, 2010)

Interesting post, even though I'm a player who never DMs -- well, not since 1980 anyway.  Teach me to spend all my time over on the 4e Rules forum!

Regarding backgrounds and such:  I always feel selfish when I try to get the party to do something that advances my character's long-term agenda.  I know the game is not all about me or my characters, but I think I probably overcompensate -- a lot.  Suggestions for me or my DMs?


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## Kannik (May 16, 2010)

buddhafrog said:


> The PC who had the hidden info loved it as well.  He knew the secret the entire scenario and kept looking for ways to either share the info (which I made it very difficult to do with my multiple, urgent NPC's and guards) or find the best time to make a sudden attack - but at great risk to the PC's life.




That.  Is.  AWESOME.  }  Sounds like the whole table got immersed into the scene and into their characters.  I can imagine them (and the PCs) squirm.  Hooray for results out of not being lazy... 



LostSoul said:


> They are pretty similar to Foregrounds.  It's what the PC is doing right now that has turned their world upside-down, something that means they can't go back to the status quo.  An "inciting incident".




That's a great idea too, it gives an impetus for why the PC is interested in heading out into the world/adventure.  I'm going to ensure that is included in any future background/foreground conversations I have about new PCs.  

gamingly,

Kannik


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## Hussar (May 17, 2010)

Prestidigitalis said:


> Interesting post, even though I'm a player who never DMs -- well, not since 1980 anyway.  Teach me to spend all my time over on the 4e Rules forum!
> 
> Regarding backgrounds and such:  I always feel selfish when I try to get the party to do something that advances my character's long-term agenda.  I know the game is not all about me or my characters, but I think I probably overcompensate -- a lot.  Suggestions for me or my DMs?




I wonder if this hits on something.  I know I tend to kinda grind my teeth when the players won't pony up and start advancing their own goals.  Could it be that the players are looking for some sort of sign or permission that they can put themselves forward like that?

I mean, just about every "good player guide" out there tells players not to hog the spotlight.  To be polite and not dominate the game.  I wonder if players take this a bit too far and become almost afraid of "being a bad player" by trying to take a bit of control.

I also wonder, thinking about the groups I have played with, if this explains a bit about why one or two players can so dominate a group.  If one or two players doesn't feel bad about putting a foot forward, and the rest do, that player becomes the one eyed man in the land of the blind.  

Sure, there are players out there who just aren't interested in getting behind the wheel, but, I wonder if there aren't at least just as many players who are too polite to drive.

Not sure how to deal with that.


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## weem (May 17, 2010)

Hussar said:


> I wonder if this hits on something.  I know I tend to kinda grind my teeth when the players won't pony up and start advancing their own goals.  Could it be that the players are looking for some sort of sign or permission that they can put themselves forward like that?
> 
> I mean, just about every "good player guide" out there tells players not to hog the spotlight.  To be polite and not dominate the game.  I wonder if players take this a bit too far and become almost afraid of "being a bad player" by trying to take a bit of control.
> 
> ...




That's a good observation - I had never really thought too much about this. I think my immediate assumption was simply that some are more comfortable with the spotlight than others, but there could be more to it than that - as you mentioned.

I would imagine that a good conversation before a game/campaign gets underway could go a long way - particularly if this subject was touched. For example, letting players know that there will be moments where the spotlight is fully intended to be on them and that they should seize that moment understanding that it (the spotlight) will make it around to everyone more than once, etc - don't worry about stepping on toes, etc.


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## Hussar (May 18, 2010)

I know in my current gaming system (Sufficiently Advanced) the mechanics dump a HUGE amount of power in the player's laps.  I have one player who really isn't all that comfortable with it.  She keeps asking if she can do this or that before trying.

I keep telling her that it would be much better if she simply declares what she's going to do, and trust that her understanding of the mechanics is sufficient to draw her own limits.  If she wants to do X and X is cool and X is fitting with the character, then she can do X.

It's a really different feel than something like D&D where everything is proscribed by the character sheet.


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## fba827 (May 18, 2010)

Prestidigitalis said:


> Interesting post, even though I'm a player who never DMs -- well, not since 1980 anyway.  Teach me to spend all my time over on the 4e Rules forum!
> 
> Regarding backgrounds and such:  I always feel selfish when I try to get the party to do something that advances my character's long-term agenda.  I know the game is not all about me or my characters, but I think I probably overcompensate -- a lot.  Suggestions for me or my DMs?




One thing I did with an older group when I used to DM regularly -- the first level at the start of the campaign would actually be broken down into a miniadventure for each PC (individually) with the other players being NPCs that tie to the focused-PC.  Culminating in the PC getting to some point that would tie in with the other PCs.  Thus the campaign with the group as a whole would begin at 2nd level (where 1st level was everyone's 'semi solo' adventure).

Example: The person playing the paladin would play his own PC, while everyone else played some premade clergy-type NPCs.  The paladin's player had in his background that he is a local hero to everyone except the sheriff who never liked him.  So, for the miniadventure, this paladin with NPCs would then go off to find the missing townsfolk, and in the course of doing so may get a clue (that is inconsequential at the time but leads to something that makes sense in the later campaign plotline) and the sherriff might have either been involved with enough deniability to save himself or else he is just miffed at the paladin for stealing his spotlight.

Next session the rogue player who wanted his background to be about being on the run for a murder he didn't commit might have him trying to flee some area, with the NPCs all being other convicts (if they escaped from jail) or just travelers that he tried to 'blend in' with..

And so on until every PC had their own 1st level adventure.

Sometimes they would each last half a session, other times it would be an entire one-to-two sessions for each PC... but it was important that each PC had the same length everytime we did this in order to not show favorites.  Of course, we often had at least two PCs have some sort of relation (it was players who were brothers so they often had brother PCs or "old friends" etc and they'd plan spells and feats that worked well off of each other) so they'd have their miniadventure combined into one.

It really brought to life everyone's personal goals and made it a) real to the player rather than just words on the background, and b) saw how it tied to the grander campaign arcs


It worked fine for that old group, but I am sure it would not work all groups since some people would scoff at the idea of needing to play an NPC, or playing when the narrative is strongly dictated by the primary PC of that arc.  So I wouldn't advise such a tactic for all groups.


But also keep in mind, some DMs may have plans for your background that may just not have come up yet (but they are there)... but then there are other DMs that generally forget/dismiss it if it doesn't come up fairly early in the campaign. So it's really as much as thing with the particular player and how vocal they are (possibly at the detriment of other players), what the DM has is remembering, and what the campaign direction allows...


edit: that ended up being much longer than i meant it .. sorry for the wordiness


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## Hussar (May 18, 2010)

fba827 - I like the idea, but, I'm not sure about the time requirements.  I have a group of five players.  To do what you're suggesting would require me to spend five or six sessions of pre-game play. That's a pretty big chunk of time for me.

I wonder if cutting it down to a much, much smaller thing would be better.  Each PC gets a talky bit and an encounter (not necessarily combat).  That should take about an hour to get through.  If the encounters were all connnected somehow, you could have a shared experience.

For example, in the beginnign of the WOTC module Rescue at Rivenroar - the module starts out with the town of Rivenroar under attack by bad guys.  (Not really a spoiler since this is actualy the very first scene of the module)  You could split that up a bit so that instead of the party being all at the same location, they could be at separate locations, each dealing with a separate part of the attack, culminating an a larger encoutner where all the PC's arrive at roughly the same time.


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## Evilhalfling (May 18, 2010)

TikkchikFenTikktikk said:


> Bookmarked. Nice.
> 
> I've recently learned to roleplay more during combat because my D&D Encounters DM is running the sessions like a boardgame.
> 
> ...




I feel the same way playing some LFR games.  I play a priest of Waukeen (trade) - actually an invoker with cleric multiclass. 

For Hand of Radiance - I throw coins at monsters, and tell them to go away. 
I also use Waukeen's Buyout: " Ill offer you 5 THP and a shiny gold piece, if you dont attack me or my friends for a bit.  If you do, ill have to smite you" I dont actually recall the printed name of this power -its his l3 encounter.


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## weem (May 19, 2010)

fba827 said:


> One thing I did with an older group when I used to DM regularly -- the first level at the start of the campaign would actually be broken down into a miniadventure for each PC (individually) with the other players being NPCs that tie to the focused-PC.  Culminating in the PC getting to some point that would tie in with the other PCs.  Thus the campaign with the group as a whole would begin at 2nd level (where 1st level was everyone's 'semi solo' adventure).




I have actually done that in my campaigns as a transition from one tier to another.

From a post I made 1 year and 11 days ago (oddly enough)...

_The campaign I currently run, we have played 17 sessions... after the 18th (next weekend) the group will likely be splitting to get a number of different things done in time for a large event. So, after the next session, we will be planning "individual" games where, for example, one weekend we play the path of the Fighter, at which point the other players will play NPC's involved in his storyline - another weekend will be for the Wizard, etc etc until they are done and meet back up which will be one session for each player._

These worked out REALLY well. One of players (the one playing the Fighter) has since told me that his individual game in that campaign was his favorite game ever as a player of D&D (and he has played for a long time, many editions).

I highly recommend this approach (either during a campaign as I have done, or at the beginning as fba827 has mentioned). If you have time that is....



Hussar said:


> fba827 - I like the idea, but, I'm not sure about the time requirements.  I have a group of five players.  To do what you're suggesting would require me to spend five or six sessions of pre-game play. That's a pretty big chunk of time for me.




He might do them in pairs perhaps (or into smaller chunks as you later mention). I will be doing that with two of my players whose characters are really close (also to cut back on time spent).


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 20, 2010)

Hussar said:


> I wonder if this hits on something.  I know I tend to kinda grind my teeth when the players won't pony up and start advancing their own goals.  Could it be that the players are looking for some sort of sign or permission that they can put themselves forward like that?
> 
> I mean, just about every "good player guide" out there tells players not to hog the spotlight.  To be polite and not dominate the game.  I wonder if players take this a bit too far and become almost afraid of "being a bad player" by trying to take a bit of control.
> 
> ...



 The last group I DM'ed was a group of eight players and  I found myself running into that very question.  The way I handled it was to take a little bit of time during a session advancing individual story lines for the three players who were quite obviously ready to  roleplay and grab the spotlight for a bit.  During the next session, I tried to draw some of the other players out by providing hooks and scenes directly related to items from their PCs background, Doing a bit like Weem in his description of a scene, addressing the relevant player while facing them directly, so there was no confusion that for the moment, the scene was all about them.  

I ended up drawing a couple of players in, dipping their toes in a bit.  I then (off line) encouraged my three very active roleplayers to see if they could help those players by interacting with them in role, in game.  It worked to draw them out a bit more when it wasn't just them being in the spotlight, but was an active thing between the players.

The other players I found just were not into or not at all comfortable with the more active roleplaying side of things and just were there for socialization or to kill stuff.  We talked about it and they were fine with letting the roleplayers have their fun, as long as they got what they wanted out of a session as well.  

I miss that group.


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## Janx (May 20, 2010)

drawing on the points about "not hogging the spotlight":

at one point in my B5=D&D naval campaign, as the campaign shifted, a PC was put in charge of the fort.

I advised him, to be more like Captain Picard, in delegating, rather than bossy to the PCs.

He interpreted that, to when something would happen, he would turn to an NPC and direct them to take care of it.

Unfortunately, what i meant was, to delegate to another PC, thereby bringing them in on the scene.

Part of my thinking was, the reason Dr. Crusher is on the away team, is because her player showed up at the game table that day.  Whereas Brent Spiner had a tummy ache and couldn't play Data, so Data stayed on the ship.

In improve theater, one of the tricks they use is to try to move the scene in a way that brings in the other actor standing there on stage with them.

For an RPG, when a player is pursuing a personal goal, they should try to bring the other PCs into the scene.  Either just to discuss it, or to eventually help with it.

Basically, players have a responsibility, while the scene is still about them, to incorporate the other players so it becomes a group scene.


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## pemerton (May 21, 2010)

Janx said:


> Basically, players have a responsibility, while the scene is still about them, to incorporate the other players so it becomes a group scene.



4e tackles this in the combat context via the use of combat roles.

It still needs work, though, in relation to skill challenges. Does anyone have experience of running skill challenges in such a way that the spotlight expands in the way Janx is describing? What techniques did you use?


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## Janx (May 21, 2010)

pemerton said:


> 4e tackles this in the combat context via the use of combat roles.
> 
> It still needs work, though, in relation to skill challenges. Does anyone have experience of running skill challenges in such a way that the spotlight expands in the way Janx is describing? What techniques did you use?




You've actually taken my point to an area I hadn't given much thought to.

I assumed, relatively speaking, that if the party was in a room with monsters, everybody was probably involved in the fight if they weren't dead or something.

I had been thinking about talking scenes, where the PC is pursuing his "personal goal", and could easily do so with out the other PCs, but has an opportunity to bring the PCs into it so they WOULD be there when a fight or other such scene came up.

For example, Bob wants to go check in with a contact who used to know his father, so he can learn how he died.   The party just got into town from the dungeon.  He could just say, I split off from the party to go do this.  Or he could say, "hey Jack, I've got some personal business that I could use a man to watch my back."

Suddenly, there's another player in the scene, so now two, instead of one players are actively involved for a few minutes.

And Jack, could easily say, "Sure, I got yer back.  But you know, if this busineess is dangerous, maybe you should tell us about it, and we can be even more prepared.  heck Wyatt's got spells he could use to spot trouble."

Basically, the players, in the interests of always getting to do stuff, support other players in their personal goals, versus forking the party and having dead time.


Now for what Pemerton is implying, Skill Challenges to me strike me as "the best man for the job" gets to roll dice, while everybody else stands back, or at best "lends support" for the +2 bonus.  I haven't seen 4e's definition of a skill challenge, but the concept seems to be "a situation that requires the use of a skill".

I would bet, that the way to incorporate more people, is to make a challenge have multiple steps, with different skills, and potentially, simultaneous skill usage in order to suceed.  Basically Bob has to roll a Balance, while Jack does a Climb on top of him, to reach higher.

The other part to solve, is that a skill challenge doesn't get stuck on a simple die roll.  Making a situation that has multiple diverse skill solutions means that Bob gets to try his way with his skills, then Jack gets to try if Bob fails (or perhaps they both try at about the same time, if there's no reason not to try both).


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## weem (May 23, 2010)

_*Thornir Alekeg*_: said...



> The last group I DM'ed was a group of eight players and I found myself running into that very question. The way I handled it was to take a little bit of time during a session advancing individual story lines for the three players who were quite obviously ready to roleplay and grab the spotlight for a bit. During the next session, I tried to draw some of the other players out by providing hooks and scenes directly related to items from their PCs background, Doing a bit like Weem in his description of a scene, addressing the relevant player while facing them directly, so there was no confusion that for the moment, the scene was all about them.
> 
> I ended up drawing a couple of players in, dipping their toes in a bit. I then (off line) encouraged my three very active roleplayers to see if they could help those players by interacting with them in role, in game. It worked to draw them out a bit more when it wasn't just them being in the spotlight, but was an active thing between the players.
> 
> ...




This is good stuff here, and I underlined an important aspect of it - have those who are mroe experienced/comfotbale with RP-ing draw the others in. _*Janx*_: mentions something like as well about players bringing other PC's into the scene.

In my current campaign, all four of my players are great roleplayers (I picked them for this campaign for that reason), but even if this is the case, it's good when PC's can bring others into their stories when possible and remember that their story is still theirs, even if there are others along to help out.


_*pemerton*_: asked...


> It still needs work, though, in relation to skill challenges. Does anyone have experience of running skill challenges in such a way that the spotlight expands in the way Janx is describing? What techniques did you use?




I don't really run skill challenges the way they are described to be run. I do not structure them at all in fact. I have been meaning to make a thread about it actually...


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## Greg K (May 23, 2010)

Throughout my campaigns, I tend to have an occassional one night session based around an individual charcter's goals/background/etc.  

Character A wants to gain glory and reknown among his tribe?  When the player's go back to character A's homeland, the party members have a chance to tell of the character's deeds at the festivities celebrating his return.  Hearing about the character's deeds from others carries more weight than the character's own retelling.

Character B left his homeland, his family, his fiancee and his duties as a knight without word to anyone in order to track the people that ambushed his border patrol?  The characters get to deal with the fallout and intrigue as they try to restore his good name upon returning to his homeland.

Robin Laws actually had a Dragon article about making a campaign like a TV show.  While I don't like plotting out the campaign like that,  I liked that it discussed having a session that highlights a particular character's story.


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## TarionzCousin (May 23, 2010)

One thing I've done for the past ten years or so is give a consistent "Plus One to any d20 roll if you adequately describe what you are doing." I've never required that players do this, but I have regularly prodded them after a close roll with "Do you want to go for the +1 description bonus?"

If the description is particularly entertaining to the group, I've been known to give a +2 or even grant an immediate success. This particularly helps keep the group interested when the rogue is off scouting alone--as he is highly motivated to give elaborate and amusing descriptions so he doesn't trigger any traps, alert the bad guys, make too much noise, etc.


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## Hussar (May 23, 2010)

Interestingly enough, on the same vein as sending emails during the week and the like, Fear the Boot just had a podcast on Using ARG's (Alternate Reality Games) in RPG's  The gist is that you set up something like some of the TV shows like Lost have done - a website where there is a clue that leads you to another website, maybe an email address, that sort of thing.  Blind alleys and whatnot, all based around your game.

Sounds like a hell of a lot of work, but, it might be interesting.


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## Hussar (Jun 7, 2010)

Dusting this one off.

One of the biggest things you can do to prompt RP as a DM, is to actually have NPC's TALK to the PC's.  I've seen it many times that DM's have the NPC's treat the PC's like they have a nasty social disease and basically treat the PC's like dirt at every opportunity.  If the players actually try to talk to your NPC's, as in the players initiatiate conversation, GO WITH IT.  

Since the players have already initiated things, they obviously are showing interest.  If every barkeep responds like the gruff bastard in Mos Eisley cantina, the players are just going to shut down.  If every time they try to talk to someone, they're meeting nothing but resistance and obfuscation, and outright beligerance, well, that's only going to discourage further attempts.

To be honest, I wonder if many of the players I've had over the years have been taught by DM's who constantly did this.  If you do this, the only thing you're teaching is that NPC's are there to be killed.


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## weem (Jun 7, 2010)

Hussar said:


> Dusting this one off.
> 
> One of the biggest things you can do to prompt RP as a DM, is to actually have NPC's TALK to the PC's.  I've seen it many times that DM's have the NPC's treat the PC's like they have a nasty social disease and basically treat the PC's like dirt at every opportunity.  If the players actually try to talk to your NPC's, as in the players initiatiate conversation, GO WITH IT.
> 
> Since the players have already initiated things, they obviously are showing interest.  If every barkeep responds like the gruff bastard in Mos Eisley cantina, the players are just going to shut down.  If every time they try to talk to someone, they're meeting nothing but resistance and obfuscation, and outright beligerance, well, that's only going to discourage further attempts.




Indeed.

I always talk to my players with the voice of the NPC.

If a player says, "Well, I ask him about the wagon", I will generally respond with something like, "what do you ask?" which reminds them that they need to be more specific and in most cases, they use their characters' voice. If they don't still, I am answering with the NPC voice anyway which immediately prompts them - sometimes I even get the (unnecessary) apologetic nod, like "oops, my bad, you want to know what my character says".

Once the players get used to this, as mine have, you will find they use their characters voice more often than not (if not all of the time), which is awesome.

And personalities definitely need to vary, as you mentioned. It's okay for some to be gruff and hard to deal with, but the majority of people (common folks), at least in my campaigns, are personable at least. When my players run into someone truly hard/impossible to deal with, it's more of a surprise to them as this is not the norm.


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## pemerton (Jun 7, 2010)

Adding to Hussar's point - in a more-or-less standard heroic fantasy campaign, PCs of mid-to-high level not only should be able to talk to NPCs, but should be figures held in high regard by many of those NPCs. If you let PCs have successful audiences with mayors, barons etc (as well as publicans) you can go a long way to making the players engage in an affirmative way with the gameworld. Even if the world is still mostly backdrop, I think it can help the mood and tone of the game if the players have a positive rather than an indifferent conception of that backdrop and their PCs' place in it.


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## Hussar (Jul 8, 2010)

Wanted to blow a bit of dust off this one.  Too good a thread to let languish.

Another thing I think DM's can do to prompt RP is to keep an eye on the pacing.  I know that there is a tendency around tables to get caught up by one of two things - excessive detail or analysis paralysis.  Either of these can lead to one or two players getting really excited while the others start zoning out.  In the first case, one or two players get really fixated on some element - what does X look like for example - and the game gets bogged down in minutia.

The latter case usually springs from the first - overloaded with details that lack context, the players try to formulate some plan of action and that planning goes on and on and on.  I've seen groups spend over an hour trying to work out the exact questions to a Divination spell so that they have all their ducks in a row before the spell is cast.  Meanwhile the other three players at the table are pretty much bored out of their minds.

As a DM, you really have to nip this in the bud.  I'm of the opinion that no single scene should take more than about 15 or 20 minutes.  I do except combat from this, because the scene should be changing pretty drastically round on round.  But, if you're spending more than about half an hour on any single point, you're probably losing the interest of the players.

To this end, I actually don't have a huge problem with the DM being a bit pushy.  Turn to the players and ask them to sum up.  If they can't, just start advancing the action anyway.  "You finally come to an idea of what your spell should look like.  This is the information that is revealed."

It might be heavy handed, but, a bit of heavy handed is far and away preferable to mind boggling boredom.


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## bryantsonnier (Apr 21, 2011)

The group i dm seems to be the hack and slash type of group, where i really like the whole story line idea of d&d. This leads to an issue where going from the town where the "roleplay" tends to be minimalistic to the location of the dungeon. I get a rather dry tastless feel rolling for random encounters on the path as well as the board "and we're walking and we're walking...." when i try to get them to describe to me what they're doing.

Ideally i feel the dm is to set up the backdrop and the players tell me what they are doing. I get a negative feel about the whole thing so i almost want to say "you set off for the dungeon and arive there 2 days later and 'Action!' " but in a world where monters lurk around every bush and its a wilderness out there to put it the way i just described it, it sounds like they took a leisurely stroll through the woods of despair and their way to the dungeon of death. 

I also don't want to steam roll them throught the story i want to tell. Any tips?

Also on the steam rolling thing, what is the balance between running everything by the rules (i.e. roll perception, you see nothing, roll perception, you see a beholder) and dictating you see nothing  you see nothing oh! you found a beholder.  with the see nothing, their may or may not be something there cause if everytime you ask for a perception roll they find something when they get a crappy roll or i tell them they found nothing they tend to metagame and dig deeper anyway causing me to add extra rolls where there really is nothing just to throw them off the trail.  I end up having a lot of rolls which doesn't feel like it flows.


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## Hussar (Apr 25, 2011)

[MENTION=6669441]bryantsonnier[/MENTION] - a couple of thoughts.  First off, only roll when the results are in some sort of conflict.  In other words, only roll when it matters.  You want them to see stuff anyway, so, don't bother rolling.  Just tell them.  Why try to hide stuff?

If the wilderness is dangerous, don't tell them it's dangerous, show them.  If they traveled for two days and saw nothing more dangerous than an irate squirrel, even though there might be dangerous stuff out there, they don't see it.  You want to make the forest seem dangerous, eat a couple of the characters once in a while.  That tends to help.


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## weem (Apr 25, 2011)

[MENTION=6669441]bryantsonnier[/MENTION] - See hussar's advice above, which is spot on.

Also, here are some quick ideas regarding how you might show them the forest is dangerous. Some can be simple, some more complex...

*Simple*

1) There could be corpses along the path

2) Large/ominous footprints spotted

3) Areas of the forest could be destroyed by what must have been something very large

*Dynamic situations*

I think of these as setting a small stage that the players can explore, which you can turn into something big, or leave static for effect.

An example might be that you describe to the players...

_"After traveling for what must be hours at this point, your find yourself stepping into an opening in the woods... at the far side, perhaps 40 feet away, you spot 4 deer, 3 of which quickly dart away from you, but the 4th seems to have it's leg caught in a hunters trap"_

The idea is simple... "trapped deer". However, you leave the rest of the details open and let the players actions determine how far you want to take it.

If they approach very carefully, perhaps investigating the clearing before getting closer, maybe that is enough (in your eyes) to demonstrate the danger of the woods. They were obviously very cautious not taking the woods for granted.

However, if they decide to shoot the deer from there, laughing and running over to it - perhaps you spring a trap on them. As they get closer they see that the trap is not a simple man-made trap, but rather one crudely made by who-knows-what. It might be at this point that they are ambushed. In this case, they get some combat (which you know this group likes) AND you demonstrate the danger of the woods. Perhaps they are not ambushed, but find something else... perhaps the deer is an illusion and as they get closer, they discover the remains of humans nearby, crudely buried under leaves and a thin layer of dirt. You could then ambush them OR, better yet, do nothing... let them worry now... "what is out here?"

The idea is, you throw something in their path and let them explore it, using their actions to determine whether or not you make more of it. Their actions may inspire an idea for you as well - something they might say or do might make you think of something to add, etc.


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## bryantsonnier (Apr 25, 2011)

Thank you for your response i'll be sure to add that in next time we run.  Had a run night before last which we really weren't prepared for. We gathered around 7:00 and didn't get started into actual play until 10:00-10:30, Once we were started it took us 2-1/2 hours for 2 encounters.

This question is more time managment, obviously have characters ready ahead of time is a must but the game was sort of spur of the moment so i can't blame the players.  Generally how long does an average encounter take (roughly 4 PC's 5 Monsters).  Are there any tips for speeding up the encounter?


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## weem (Apr 25, 2011)

bryantsonnier said:


> Had a run night before last which we really weren't prepared for. We gathered around 7:00 and didn't get started into actual play until 10:00-10:30, Once we were started it took us 2-1/2 hours for 2 encounters.
> 
> This question is more time managment, obviously have characters ready ahead of time is a must but the game was sort of spur of the moment so i can't blame the players.  Generally how long does an average encounter take (roughly 4 PC's 5 Monsters).  Are there any tips for speeding up the encounter?




This probably isn't the best thread to cover how to speed up an encounter - there are many other threads for that. Here are some links to just a few of them here at EN World...

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/300152-speeding-up-combat-ditching-damage-rolls.html

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-dis...th-edition-d-d-reposted-general-rpg-area.html

And this one even has a response from me (second post)...

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...e-speed-up-our-encounters-what-about-you.html


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## bryantsonnier (Apr 26, 2011)

Yah i was thinking that after i posted but it was done and i had to go. Thank you for the links i will definetly look them over


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