# GAME OF THRONES #6 :-BEYOND THE WALL--Season 7 EPISODE #66



## Truth Seeker (Aug 20, 2017)

*BEYOND THE WALL*






Jon's mission continues north of the wall, but the odds against  his ragged band of misfits may be greater than he imagined.​


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## Joker (Aug 21, 2017)




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## wicked cool (Aug 21, 2017)

Looks like we have our first ice dragon or undead dragon on tv? Hope the nights watch gets their own crossbow.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 21, 2017)

If only they had had oh, I don’t know, a bunch of dragonglass-tipped arrows and a longbow. Probably left those behind along with their winter hats.

I dug the episode, quite a bit. Except for the “Oh, hi long lost uncle Benjen. Goodbye long lost uncle Benjen” moment. The death of the dragon was horrifying and momentous. I figured that there was a chance of it happening eventually, but it was a heavy moment, nonetheless.

Guess this is our first Dracolich in genre television and movies, too.


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## Mirtek (Aug 21, 2017)

It becomes way more believable if they just switch out every mentioning of "sending a raven" with "making a cellphone call".

Seriously, this sets the new gold standard for teleporting in GoT. The season so far was heavy of it, but Gendry's world-record breaking run to the wall, the supersonic flight of the raven from Eastwatch to Dragonstone, the supersonic flight of the dragons from Dragonstone to the lake beyond the wall - just wow


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## MarkB (Aug 21, 2017)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> If only they had had oh, I don’t know, a bunch of dragonglass-tipped arrows and a longbow. Probably left those behind along with their winter hats.




Longbows won't cut it (literally). I'm expecting we'll see a dragonglass-bolt-equipped Scorpion at some point (or maybe they'll just load Longclaw into it).


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## Argyle King (Aug 22, 2017)

I still enjoy the show.  However, it's hard to not feel as though the quality of writing has dropped significantly since passing the point of being completely without the books.  A lot of what made the show great was the small details which helped bring the fantasy setting to life.  

I understand that the scope of the story is now bigger and more epic, so it makes sense to gloss over a lot of things.  That being said, I feel as though the fight-logic is (at least to some extent) hurting the story by too often embracing what looks cool in a 10 second preview or a still shot rather than what actually feels narratively right while watching the show.


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## Tonguez (Aug 22, 2017)

Johnny3D3D said:


> I still enjoy the show.  However, it's hard to not feel as though the quality of writing has dropped significantly since passing the point of being completely without the books.  A lot of what made the show great was the small details which helped bring the fantasy setting to life.
> 
> I understand that the scope of the story is now bigger and more epic, so it makes sense to gloss over a lot of things.  That being said, I feel as though the fight-logic is (at least to some extent) hurting the story by too often embracing what looks cool in a 10 second preview or a still shot rather than what actually feels narratively right while watching the show.




absolutely, GoT became the huge cross over hit that appeals to my rugby loving father as much as it does his fantasy geek son because of the indepth story and character development that was able to unfurl over long episodes of travel and exploration. Thats been replaced with leaps of logic, forced exposition and the hope that the Epic shots of Dragons plummeting through the ice is enough.

I appreciated the growing tension between Dany and Tyrion and loved the zombie ice bear scene, that was unexpected and terrifying, but the dragon's demise was too conviniently set up, and Arya v Sansa just looks like a red herring. Really the whole season seems to consist of moving peices into place in order to set up some cool cgi battle scene.

its certainly spectacular, but also a little hollow

oh and where is Grey Wurm?


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## Joker (Aug 22, 2017)

Yeah, the troubling things about this season have been the leaps of logic and out of character decisions.

Going beyond the wall all so you can set up the relationship between Jon and Dani is convoluted at best. The excuse that it's to get a wight to convince Cercei of the real danger is ridiculous. You don't need Cercei. You can quite literally take the dragons and burn the Red Keep to its foundations.

About Arya: I'm hoping she's playing Littlefinger. Her exchange at the end of the episode with Sansa about the Game of Faces seemed to be trying to tell Sansa that Arya is not mad with her and does trust her. Giving her the dagger kind of drove home the point.
If that's not the case, then it's completely ridiculous for Arya to act this way. Everyone knows that Sansa was held captive. Everyone knows this happens in time of war.

Don't get me started on Benjen. Hi Benjen. Bye Benjen.


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## Azurewraith (Aug 22, 2017)

Mirtek said:


> It becomes way more believable if they just switch out every mentioning of "sending a raven" with "making a cellphone call".
> 
> Seriously, this sets the new gold standard for teleporting in GoT. The season so far was heavy of it, but Gendry's world-record breaking run to the wall, the supersonic flight of the raven from Eastwatch to Dragonstone, the supersonic flight of the dragons from Dragonstone to the lake beyond the wall - just wow



I can't find it right now on mobile at work, but someone mathed it all out and it made sense.

What bugs me is why no one used the magic flamey sword for heat.


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## Joker (Aug 22, 2017)

Azurewraith said:


> I can't find it right now on mobile at work, but someone mathed it all out and it made sense.
> 
> What bugs me is why no one used the magic flamey sword for heat.




It only lasts one round per level?


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## wicked cool (Aug 22, 2017)

I love the criticism. What tv show or movie makes sense when it comes to syfy or horror or that matter real life. I watched Hacksaw Ridge recently. I would have thought Hacksaw was fiction the way things played out. This season has been some of the best television I have watched in years 

For those of you are are critical of the producers you think Martin is going to do a better job in setting up these scenes? Do you think they went to him and he said they go "outside wall and fight and dragon dies". 

For those who are critical and are roleplayers
give me a better roleplaying gaming module? 
Give me a better fantasy show


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 22, 2017)

I agree. It feels like the spectacle is driving the writing, whereas it used to be the other way around. I still absolutely love it, but the breakneck pace of this season definitely is showing some cracks, in both the plot and characterization.

Part of what made the last season so satisfying is that we finally got the answers to so many questions that had been plaguing us as the wait for the next book stretched on and on. But now we’re in completely unknown territory.



Johnny3D3D said:


> I still enjoy the show.  However, it's hard to not feel as though the quality of writing has dropped significantly since passing the point of being completely without the books.  A lot of what made the show great was the small details which helped bring the fantasy setting to life.
> 
> I understand that the scope of the story is now bigger and more epic, so it makes sense to gloss over a lot of things.  That being said, I feel as though the fight-logic is (at least to some extent) hurting the story by too often embracing what looks cool in a 10 second preview or a still shot rather than what actually feels narratively right while watching the show.


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## pukunui (Aug 24, 2017)

Azurewraith said:


> I can't find it right now on mobile at work, but someone mathed it all out and it made sense.



Is this what you are talking about?

The math only works if you pretend that they were stuck on that island for 5 days. The thing is, even the director has admitted there's problem with the timing. He was just hoping we'd be too enraptured by the fight scene to notice.



> What bugs me is why no one used the magic flamey sword for heat.



Maybe they did and we just didn't see it.


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## Azurewraith (Aug 24, 2017)

pukunui said:


> Yeah, it only works if you accept that it took 5 days in total for Gendry to run back to the Wall, the raven to fly to Dragonstone, and then the dragons to fly back up past the Wall. But the director has admitted to fudging the timeline. It was only meant to be overnight. But he was hoping we'd be too enraptured by the fight scene to notice.
> 
> Maybe they did and we just didn't see it.



Ye I read him admitting his fudging which is why I silently slipped into a dark corner.

If they had I can't imagine the corpse would be frozen.


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## pukunui (Aug 24, 2017)

Azurewraith said:


> If they had I can't imagine the corpse would be frozen.



Yeah, that's the other thing. If they'd been stuck on that island for days, surely they would've noticed that Thoros had died (or was dying) before the last morning!

As an aside, Richard Dormer says the sword really was on fire, and because of the tech needed to ignite it, it was heavier than usual, and he had to practice swinging it around so he didn't hurt anyone for real.



As another aside, one thing that bugs me about the wights in this show is how does hacking at one with a sword actually kill it? I get that smashing one of the more skeletal ones with a hammer so it literally falls apart would stop it, and I can accept that lighting one on fire will do the same, but surely just slicing it across the chest with a sword (which Jon et al appear to do on numerous occasions throughout the show, not just this episode) shouldn't be enough? 

Zombies on _The Walking Dead_ have that virus that reanimates their brain stem or whatever, so a headshot makes some sense. But on _Game of Thrones_, they're reanimated by magic. How is a simple slash or stab enough to de-animate them?


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## Azurewraith (Aug 24, 2017)

pukunui said:


> Yeah, that's the other thing. If they'd been stuck on that island for days, surely they would've noticed that Thoros had died (or was dying) before the last morning!
> 
> As an aside, Richard Dormer says the sword really was on fire, and because of the tech needed to ignite it, it was heavier than usual, and he had to practice swinging it around so he didn't hurt anyone for real.
> 
> ...



This never really bugged me until now, its like my brain just glossed over it. I guess in Jon's case it could be Valerian steel or targaryn blood that lets him do it, as for everyone else I'm afraid "A wizard did it".


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## pukunui (Aug 24, 2017)

Azurewraith said:


> This never really bugged me until now, its like my brain just glossed over it. I guess in Jon's case it could be Valerian steel or targaryn blood that lets him do it, as for everyone else I'm afraid "A wizard did it".



That could be it. When he stabbed that wight that was trying to get at Mormont, he wasn't wielding Longclaw, right? That time, it went down but then got up again, which is when Jon lit it on fire.

Speaking of that, he appeared to be hurt by the fire. Dany is immune to fire (and very hot water) but Jon appears not to be. But then Viserys wasn't either. So maybe not all Targaryens are. And since Jon was able to survive being dunked in an icy lake and a long ride home in sopping wet furs, maybe he is immune to cold instead? That would certainly fit with the whole ice and fire theme.


Other thoughts:

I think it would've been a lot cooler (and made more sense) if the Night King had had those undead giants we saw earlier in the season haul Viserion's body out of the ice. Using massive chains that came out of nowhere was just lame. Where'd they get them from? Hardhome? What would the wildlings have needed all those massive chains for? And I guess the Night King ordered some of the wights to swim (or walk) down to the bottom of the lake to attach them to the dragon corpse?

I can't decide if the capture of the wight was just lazy writing or a deliberate trap on the part of the Night King. It was just too damn convenient that they found a lone patrol, and that when Jon killed the white walker leading the patrol, all but one wight de-animated. If it was deliberate, the Night King must have known they were coming and why, and thus that one wight was planted in the patrol as bait. If it wasn't, well, that sure was convenient that the patrol happened to include exactly one wight that the walker hadn't animated itself. (As an aside, was it just me, or do the wights have some kind of hive mind? At one point the Hound kicks the captive wight, it shrieks, and then there's an answering shriek from the horde surrounding the lake, as if they all felt the kick too.)

Oh, and of course the Night King just happened to have some ice javelins on hand ... as if he was expecting dragons to show up. (Or was he going to chuck them at Bran's ravens the next time they fly past?) If it turns out it was just his lucky day, I'll be surprised. I feel like he must be able to see the future like Bran. He certainly has some kind of magical vision powers, since he could see (and touch) Bran while he was remote viewing the walkers and their army that one time.

I wish we could get some insight into how the Night King thinks and what it is that the wants. We know that, on the show at least, he is essentially a weapon gone rogue. But why has he waited so long to reappear? And what is he hoping to achieve? Is he Westeros' icy equivalent of Orcus, hoping to turn the world into an endless snowscape populated only by undead?

I have some theories: Perhaps he was dormant for a long time, or perhaps it's taken him a very long time to build up his army. If Craster's male babies were his only source of fresh white walkers, then I imagine it would've taken him a while to build them up. (Since he turns them into walkers as babies, it would seem like they'd still have to spend at least some time growing to adult size.)

One other thing: People like to joke about how long it's taken the army of the undead to reach the Wall. I don't think they've been on the march this whole time. I think they must have some kind of home base, from which they've been striking out on specific missions (killing wildlings, attacking the Night's Watch expedition at the Fist of the First Men, attacking Hardhome, picking up Craster's babies, and so on). I'd say they've only just started marching on the Wall for real now. I think Bran even said as much in his message to Jon, didn't he? And the fact that they seemed to be marching towards Eastwatch ties back in with my theory above that the Night King knew if he went there, he'd get himself a dragon ... Otherwise, why go specifically to Eastwatch? It's not like they can go around the Wall.

Wights can pass the Wall but Uncle Benjen and the white walkers can't because magic. But even so, if I were the Night King, I'd head for one of the numerous abandoned fortresses with a gate through the Wall, not a manned fortress by the sea ... unless I had had visions leading me to that location. Of course, the Hound *also* had a vision leading him to that location. Hmm ...


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## Azurewraith (Aug 24, 2017)

pukunui said:


> That could be it. When he stabbed that wight that was trying to get at Mormont, he wasn't wielding Longclaw, right? That time, it went down but then got up again, which is when Jon lit it on fire.
> 
> Speaking of that, he appeared to be hurt by the fire. Dany is immune to fire (and very hot water) but Jon appears not to be. But then Viserys wasn't either. So maybe not all Targaryens are. And since Jon was able to survive being dunked in an icy lake and a long ride home in sopping wet furs, maybe he is immune to cold?
> 
> ...




As much as I would love to multi quote this and pick it all apart because I love a good discussion, I don't think discussing GoT is a valid reason for being late to work.

I honestly can't remember if it was Long claw or just some generic sword.

As cool as it would be for each Targaryn has his own elemental immunity, which would insinuate dragons had differing elemental types, much like DnD which seems a tad of a stretch for something we won't ever see. I think Jon simply has plotline immunity. Maybe Viserion wasn't her full brother or something? Did he die instantly? Maybe some got into his lungs and he suffocated as it hardened don't fully remember the scene.

The night king definitely set that reverse ambush up and knew the dragons where coming, I mean he could of icelanced the group on the island at any time or made a ladder of corpses or anything. He knew, my personal theory is he is a corrupted 3 eyed raven or something along those lines.


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## pukunui (Aug 24, 2017)

Azurewraith said:


> As much as I would love to multi quote this and pick it all apart because I love a good discussion, I don't think discussing GoT is a valid reason for being late to work.



Fair enough. It's the middle of the night where I am. I got back from a D&D session a little while ago, and it always takes me some time to wind down enough to go to sleep.



> I honestly can't remember if it was Long claw or just some generic sword.



I'm pretty sure it wasn't until sometime after that fight that Mormont gave Jon his sword. I'll have to go back and check.



> I think Jon simply has plotline immunity.



You're probably right. But still ...



> Maybe Viserion wasn't her full brother or something? Did he die instantly? Maybe some got into his lungs and he suffocated as it hardened don't fully remember the scene.



I just rewatched the scene. No gold goes over his nose or mouth (or even his eyes), and it's pretty obvious he's screaming from the pain of the intense heat. It probably melts his skull and cooks his brain or something. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dany's fire immunity is meant to be unique to her. I don't know that any other Targaryens were known to be immune to fire. Also, I think in the books it was just a one-time thing, not a permanent immunity, but I'm not sure.



> The night king definitely set that reverse ambush up and knew the dragons where coming, I mean he could of icelanced the group on the island at any time or made a ladder of corpses or anything. He knew, my personal theory is he is a corrupted 3 eyed raven or something along those lines.



That's an interesting idea. Or maybe the ritual the Children of the Forest used to turn him into the first white walker gave him three-eyed raven like powers. That flashback made it seem like he was just some random First Man that the children had captured. 

To be honest, I was expecting the whole "Bran being marked means the Night King can pass the magic protecting the cave" thing to be foreshadowing so that when Bran passes back through the Wall, he makes it so the white walkers can bypass its magic as well ... but it seems more likely that they're just going to melt the Wall with undead dragonfire.


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## wicked cool (Aug 24, 2017)

he turns the flying  ravens with a glance so hes got multiple powers


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## Tonguez (Aug 24, 2017)

pukunui said:


> I just rewatched the scene. No gold goes over his nose or mouth (or even his eyes), and it's pretty obvious he's screaming from the pain of the intense heat. It probably melts his skull and cooks his brain or something. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dany's fire immunity is meant to be unique to her. I don't know that any other Targaryens were known to be immune to fire. Also, I think in the books it was just a one-time thing, not a permanent immunity, but I'm not sure..




I  thought the killing of Viserion was a statement that Only the Rightful Tragaryan heir has the Fire Immunity required to hatch a dragons egg, Viserion wanted a gold crown but wasn't worthy, Dany who was previously discounted proved her worthiness.

do the books say anything about the first Targaryan and the first Mother of Dragons? May only one gets to hatch an egg, but the others get to ride them due to common blood

Of copurse that means that if Jon isn't fireproof he isn't the true Dragon Heir either


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## pukunui (Aug 24, 2017)

wicked cool said:


> he turns the flying  ravens with a glance so hes got multiple powers



Yes, there's that as well. He seems to be able to interfere with Bran's warging. I wonder if his ability to do that is tied in with the fact that he marked Bran or not.



Tonguez said:


> I  thought the killing of Viserion was a statement that Only the Rightful Tragaryan heir has the Fire Immunity required to hatch a dragons egg, Viserion wanted a gold crown but wasn't worthy, Dany who was previously discounted proved her worthiness.



This is what GRRM had to say about it back in 1999: "TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold."

While Dany is clearly permanently immune to fire (and hot water) on the show, it would still appear to be a thing that's unique to her, rather than to Targaryens.


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## MarkB (Aug 26, 2017)

pukunui said:


> Oh, and of course the Night King just happened to have some ice javelins on hand ... as if he was expecting dragons to show up. (Or was he going to chuck them at Bran's ravens the next time they fly past?)




They looked like lances rather than javelins, which would make sense as a choice of weapon for a horse rider. The fact that they could be thrown effectively is the fortuitous coincidence.


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## pukunui (Aug 26, 2017)

MarkB said:


> They looked like lances rather than javelins, which would make sense as a choice of weapon for a horse rider. The fact that they could be thrown effectively is the fortuitous coincidence.



Javelin, lance, spear ... whatever. I still think he came prepared for dragons.


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## smbakeresq (Aug 28, 2017)

Mirtek said:


> It becomes way more believable if they just switch out every mentioning of "sending a raven" with "making a cellphone call".
> 
> Seriously, this sets the new gold standard for teleporting in GoT. The season so far was heavy of it, but Gendry's world-record breaking run to the wall, the supersonic flight of the raven from Eastwatch to Dragonstone, the supersonic flight of the dragons from Dragonstone to the lake beyond the wall - just wow




I wonder where they happened to find about 1500m (at least) of marine industrial chain with hook links to drag the dragon out of the lake.


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## Azurewraith (Aug 28, 2017)

smbakeresq said:


> I wonder where they happened to find about 1500m (at least) of marine industrial chain with hook links to drag the dragon out of the lake.



Home depot? Duh


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## wicked cool (Aug 28, 2017)

night king must have knowledge of future events and that's why he has spears along with the chains. the whole event including the wall last night seems well planned (opposite power of Brans).


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## smbakeresq (Aug 29, 2017)

Azurewraith said:


> Home depot? Duh



Yeah they do have everything there.  The Night King will probably return the chains for a refund even though they are used.  He looks like the type that would do that.


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## smbakeresq (Aug 29, 2017)

wicked cool said:


> night king must have knowledge of future events and that's why he has spears along with the chains. the whole event including the wall last night seems well planned (opposite power of Brans).




How would he make it? That sort of stuff wouldn't just be lying around.


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## pukunui (Aug 30, 2017)

smbakeresq said:


> How would he make it? That sort of stuff wouldn't just be lying around.



They might have had some chains at Hardhome. Or maybe he raided one of the many abandoned Night's Watch outposts. Judging by the map that HBO posted recently, Westwatch appears to be beyond the Wall, so it might be more easily accessed that some of the others.


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