# Character Build: Dragon Disciple



## Scratched_back

Hi all,

A friend of mine just got coup-de-graced by a Harpy (Please, no more laughing!) and we don't have the resources to raise him so it's new character time. I suggested a Dragon Disciple because they look quite novel and I've never seen one be used before. He's on the fence about it. Could somebody take a look at these stat rolls and suggest where to attriubute them if he goes for it, and also the best route in, bearing in mind he'd like to be more melee than caster.

*Starting Level:* 5th (I'm aware 6th is earliest for DD, just need advice on routes generally).
*Stats:* _18, 18, 15, 13, 12, 10_ (+1 floating point for 4th level - Yes he's a lucky roller).
*Race:* Flexible (Feel free to make suggestions for/against different races.
*Sources:* Core and Completes only please.

He said he's quite sceptical about their ability to tank because typically to get into the class you'd have to go via Bard or Sorcerer; not well known for their hitpoints or melee talents.

As ever, I thank replying ENWorlders in advance.

Take care.

-Ben


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## Jack Simth

Ah, but here's the thing - he only needs a single level in either Bard or Sorceror to qualify - the rest can be ... Barbarian, say (Note that pretty much any class will work in place of the barbarian levels; if you have something that requires you be lawful, take Sorceror, instead, and put it earlier on in the progression):
Barbarian 4/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple X
18 Dex, 18 Str, 15 Con, 13 Cha, 12 Int, 10 Wis, floating +1 at 4th into Con
At first, put your Bonus Language into Draconic, put one cross-class skill point into Knoweledge(Arcana), with the Bard level, put all 7 skill points into Knoweledge(Arcana) (taken as a class skill) and you will then meet all the pre-req's at 5th and ready to take DD at 6th. The Natural Armour increases help make up for the Barbarian's lack of armour, the rage synergizes nicely with the DD's strength boosts, and the natural attacks (Dragon Disciple 2) deal with the whole sunder/disarm issue. 

Barbarian/Bard or Ranger/Bard work well for a damage dealer build; Fighter/Bard, Sorceror/Paladin (can't take Paladin/Bard....), or Cleric/Bard work well for tank builds (for heavy armor proficiency).

You could also replace the Bard level with a Sorceror level in any of the above, but then you would need to take the Sorceror level earlier, as a Sorceror doesn't get as many skill points as the bard for quickly filling out those needed Knoweledge(Arcane) ranks (although some of the options have Knoweledge(Arcane) as class skills for all classes, and can take either anywhere).


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## rowport

Jack Smith covered it pretty well.  Thanee has some ideas on this as well in past strings; try googling or searching for dragon disciple here on ENWorld.  One slightly funky build that I like is Monk 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple X.  Take True Strike with Dragon Disciple and go Stunning Fist crazy!  I also like the Hexblade/Dragon Disciple concept, but it takes several levels to work effectively because of the slow Hexblade casting progression.  That might be out as non-core anyway...  If you can stray from core a bit, I always thought it would be fun to play a melee dude x/Sorcerer 1/ Dragon Disciple X that takes all the Draconic feats from Complete Arcane.

Anyway, the most important factor to remember is that DD's are *melee* dudes, not primarily spellcasters.  His spellcasting should be minimal, and either utility or buff spells only.


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## Thanee

We just lost our Barbarian/.../Dragon Disciple, so I guess it's the big, universal equation, that there must be someone creating one now to keep the balance. 



			
				Scratched_back said:
			
		

> *Starting Level:* 5th (I'm aware 6th is earliest for DD, just need advice on routes generally).
> *Stats:* _18, 18, 15, 13, 12, 10_ (+1 floating point for 4th level - Yes he's a lucky roller).
> *Race:* Flexible (Feel free to make suggestions for/against different races.
> *Sources:* Core and Completes only please.




Dragon Disciple is definitely a fighter class, not a spellcaster, but that seems to be the route he wants to go, so that is covered.

With those stats, he will probably be quite effective, too. 

As Jack already said, you need only one level in a spellcasting class to cover the requirements, and that is probably the best way, too... or was, before Complete Adventurer, since now 4 levels of sorcerer can actually be quite appealing with spells like _Wraithstrike_ available at 2nd level. He'll have quite a few spell slots to cast that eventually.

Here's an example, how it could look like:

Human Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 0 (not yet )

Str 18
Dex 15+1
Con 18
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 12

*Hit Points:* 12+4d4+20 (44 hp - that's about what a fighter with a 14 Con has at this level)
*Skills:* Climb 4 ranks, Jump 4 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks, Listen 4 ranks, Survival 4 ranks, Swim 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Concentration 8 ranks
*Feats:* Extra Rage (1st), Power Attack (human), Cleave (3rd), (Combat Expertise (6th), Improved Trip (9th)).
*Spells:* 1st - _Shield_, _True Strike_, _Critical Strike_; 2nd - _Wraithstrike_.
*Equipment:* Greatsword, Mithril Breastplate, etc.

With mithril armor, the arcane spell failure is low enough to be feasible (even the 25% from mithril full plate), sometimes a spell won't work because of that, but I wouldn't worry about it too much, just do not run around in heavy armor (it would also reduce the nice fast movement, anyways).

Bye
Thanee


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## Scion

If you are willing to use homebrewed stuff I have a modified halfdragon class which makes it much more gish like.

It needs a little work (very little) to fit into a different campaign, but the player was happy enough with it.


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## moritheil

Scratched_back said:
			
		

> He said he's quite sceptical about their ability to tank . . .
> 
> -Ben




Go for Paladin/Sorc and put an 18 into Charisma. That way your save bonuses will be huge (+5 to all from Divine Grace alone once DD gives you +2 Cha.) If you're tanking, you're already taking damage, so you'd better minimize any incidental spell damage you take. Look into taking Pious Templar later for Mettle, too.

So that will look like:

 Str 13
 Dex 15+1
 Con 18
 Int 12 (or Int 10 if you don't want the skill points, or actually want to cast paladin spells)
 Wis 10 (or Wis 12)
 Cha 18

Your strength will suck for a melee fighter, but 1) you're going to get a breath weapon, and 2) DD will give you progressive str increases (as well as con and a bit of cha.) 13 is just enough str to qualify for important feats.

Wield a 2h weapon and power attack with True Strike to ensure that you don't miss. (Note that Arcane Failure doesn't apply to True Strike, as it has no somatic components.)

Compounding the fact that you can tank decently and soak up spell damage, you can heal yourself with lay on hands, which doesn't provoke AOOs, though it is a standard action.  Four levels of paladin gets you 16 hit points/day, which increases to 20 when your charisma goes up to 20.

You're immune to diseases, and can play with turning feats, which is nice.  With a 12 wis, you'll be able to cast one 1st-level paladin spell per day, or you can toss the 12 into int for skill points.  If going for paladin spells, you can look at Bless Weapon, Lesser Restoration, or Protection from Evil.


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## Thanee

moritheil said:
			
		

> Your strength will suck for a melee fighter, but 1) you're going to get a breath weapon, ...




Please, go and look the breath weapon up! 

Bye
Thanee


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## moritheil

Thanee said:
			
		

> Please, go and look the breath weapon up!
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




I know you can't use it continuously. Are you trying to say that the damage stinks? If he really wants to tank, he should focus on defense first and worry about offense second or even third.

Psychologically, a breath weapon is great for attracting opponents' attention, though, which is another thing he needs to worry about as a defense-oriented player.


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## werk

I'm at third level, headed for dragon disciple in my current campaign.  I'm playing a deathtouched (Dragon 313) Battle Sorcerer.  It gives me nice hitpoints, decent BAB, and ignores light ASF.  I wish I had stats like your buddy's.


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## PrinceZane

I'm kinda biased here.  I'm a hardcore dragon fanatic.  DD is good, but it just comes no where near close to pureblood dragon.  I've played both DD char and dragon char, and DD is so far below the real thing, its hard for me to take it seriously anymore.


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## Thanee

moritheil said:
			
		

> I know you can't use it continuously. Are you trying to say that the damage stinks? If he really wants to tank, he should focus on defense first and worry about offense second or even third.
> 
> Psychologically, a breath weapon is great for attracting opponents' attention, though, which is another thing he needs to worry about as a defense-oriented player.




The only thing the Dragon Disciple's breath weapon is good for is to attract laughter! 

A character that is good at defense and bad at offense is no threat and will be ignored, while the high offense low defense ones will be slaughtered. You need to be good at both defense *and* offense to be a good 'tank' IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. As an addition to my above post... the Rage Mage PrC (2-4 levels) would also mix in well, I guess. Except for one feat, the prerequisites would be covered, too.


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## moritheil

Thanee said:
			
		

> The only thing the Dragon Disciple's breath weapon is good for is to attract laughter!
> 
> A character that is good at defense and bad at offense is no threat and will be ignored, while the high offense low defense ones will be slaughtered. You need to be good at both defense *and* offense to be a good 'tank' IMHO.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee
> 
> P.S. As an addition to my above post... the Rage Mage PrC (2-4 levels) would also mix in well, I guess. Except for one feat, the prerequisites would be covered, too.




How will the NPCs know, unless the DM is metagaming?  It could just have happened to put out low damage for the breath weapon the first time it hit them.  Will they really want to ignore a breath weapon, which is classically terrifying?  Or are all villains so well-educated that they know that DD breath weapons are weak?

See, I don't disagree that "a character that is good at defense and bad at offense is no threat and will be ignored," but these things aren't (or shouldn't be) obvious.  And a  greatsword wielder full power attacking, maybe with Smite Evil, and a True Strike to make sure he doesn't miss, will at least make a good first impression.


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## Thanee

A dragon is terrifying.

That's just a weird-looking human, who breathes fire (or something else), that doesn't really do anything. 

Using the breath weapon is just a waste of time, unfortunately. It might be good for posing. 

Bye
Thanee


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## moritheil

Thanee said:
			
		

> A dragon is terrifying.
> 
> That's just a weird-looking human, who breathes fire (or something else), that doesn't really do anything.
> 
> Using the breath weapon is just a waste of time, unfortunately. It might be good for posing.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




It's not my intent to dispute how bad DD breath damage is, but I do take issue with your implication that the paladin/sorc 13str DD build won't be able to attract enemy attention.


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## Thanee

Well, that's certainly possible... it's not like he wouldn't be able to do some damage. I was more speaking of your general assessment, that offense could be sacrificed pretty much for defense.

In any way, the Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple would be *way* better with different stats, tho... like:

Str 18 Dex 12 Con 18 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 15+1

Bye
Thanee


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## moritheil

Thanee said:
			
		

> Well, that's certainly possible... it's not like he wouldn't be able to do some damage. I was more speaking of your general assessment, that offense could be sacrificed pretty much for defense.
> 
> In any way, the Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple would be *way* better with different stats, tho... like:
> 
> Str 18 Dex 12 Con 18 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 15+1
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Well, let me explain my thinking on putting that 16 into dex. The enemies will probably eventually start gunning for the DD with ranged touch spells, since his saves are so good. You therefore want decent dex.  Also, you want to ramp AC as high as possible, and Dex is the stat that contributes to that.

I don't think you can have no offense, but since the guy playing this is absolutely paranoid about his inability to take damage, you might want to play more for the safe side of things when you show him the possibilities. 

I do stand by my comment that defense is your focus before offense when it comes to tanks. I've seen a lot of tank makers ignore my advice to invest in a lot of armor and defensive magic and instead dump all their gp into weapons; they invariably end up needing new characters before too long. Obviously you're familiar enough with the game mechanics and efficiencies to not have that problem, but for those who tend to focus on awesome weaponry (IME, the majority of players), I tend to tell them their priority should be defense.


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## Thanee

moritheil said:
			
		

> Well, let me explain my thinking on putting that 16 into dex. The enemies will probably eventually start gunning for the DD with ranged touch spells, since his saves are so good. You therefore want decent dex.  Also, you want to ramp AC as high as possible, and Dex is the stat that contributes to that.




It's certainly useful, but it's not worth to reduce your *primary* ability that much (IMHO, of course).



> I don't think you can have no offense, but since the guy playing this is absolutely paranoid about his inability to take damage, you might want to play more for the safe side of things when you show him the possibilities.




Hmm... that is one point, which I'm not entirely sure of... while 'tank' usually refers to defense, as you obviously use it, I've quite often seen people use it synonymously with 'melee fighter', including stuff like raging barbarians, who dish out damage like crazy, but have no AC to speak of.

The original post speaks of hit points and melee talents, so I take it to mean 'tank' as both, defensive *and* offensive there. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Sledge

First off, the core DD is underpowered.  I've done the math and it is basically 2 or so levels behind by 10th.  That said, it has coolness.  The thing to do with those stats is to throw an 18 into str and con, and the 15 into cha for the sorceror/bard level.  Dex doesn't need to be high, because you really don't need the spells so ASF is irrelevant.

For classes I would personally take either barbarian or fighter, and probably fighter as all those bonus feats will allow you to take advantage of the flavour of the character.

If you must go high dex low armour, I strongly urge you to take even levels of sorceror or 4 levels of bard.


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## moritheil

Thanee said:
			
		

> It's certainly useful, but it's not worth to reduce your *primary* ability that much (IMHO, of course).
> 
> Hmm... that is one point, which I'm not entirely sure of... while 'tank' usually refers to defense, as you obviously use it, I've quite often seen people use it synonymously with 'melee fighter', including stuff like raging barbarians, who dish out damage like crazy, but have no AC to speak of.
> 
> The original post speaks of hit points and melee talents, so I take it to mean 'tank' as both, defensive *and* offensive there.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Interesting semantics.  I always assumed barbs were considered tanks due to their frontline positions, d12 hit dice, increased hps during rage, and their DR, and that it had nothing to do with damage output.

I take it by your statement above that you consider strength/damage dealing to be the primary emphasis of paladins . . . I don't know.  There are other ways to take care of many of the other things that call for strength.  More damage is always good, of course, but . . . throwing an 18 into strength when you're going to get a lot of strength increases from DD anyhow, and you could instead improve your saves, doesn't sit well with me.  YMMV.


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## Scion

While it is a bit out there (and potentially not part of 'core + completes', my group considers the 3.5 psionics handbook to be core and it is certainly better balanced than the completes) you could try to convince the dm to change the arcane parts to psionic.

At that point you could go psychic warrior 5 to get in (knowledge psionic instead of arcane, able to manifest powers instead of cast spells without preperation, add autohypnosis as a class skill). Have him focus on claw and bite powers and effects that boost these. He will be a fighting machine with his weapons.

At some point he feels the calling of the dragon, but in this case it is one of the psionic dragons (gem dragons, they are in one of the monstrous manuals and available for download several places).

At second level in the prc he will get a claw/claw/bite routine, which will fit perfectly with the character concept. He should at this point find someone to get psychic reformation to trade out his claw and bite powers for others more fitting.

Everytime he would have gotten 'extra spell 1' he instead gets enough pp to manifest his highest level power once. For a 5th level psychic warrior this would be 3 pp.

While very strange I think this could actually be a very viable concept.

Stats would go as follows:
Str 18
Dex 13
Con 15 (+1)
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 10

Feats something along the lines of improved natural attack claw and bit, multiattack, various weapon focus.. you know the drill.

I think it'd wind up being pretty fun  Basically a character who focuses primarily upon natural weapons and tearing things apart with his hands and teeth then starts turning into a dragon. Nice.


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## Thanee

moritheil said:
			
		

> I take it by your statement above that you consider strength/damage dealing to be the primary emphasis of paladins . . .




Nah, Paladin's primary stat is Charisma, but I don't consider a Paladin/Dragon Disciple to be a typical Paladin.

I do consider 'damage dealing' to be a (not the) primary emphasis for melee fighters.



> ...throwing an 18 into strength when you're going to get a lot of strength increases from DD anyhow, and you could instead improve your saves, doesn't sit well with me.  YMMV.




You can never have enough Str, as a melee fighter. And 16 Cha isn't *that* bad, really. 

Bye
Thanee


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## moritheil

Thanee said:
			
		

> Nah, Paladin's primary stat is Charisma, but I don't consider a Paladin/Dragon Disciple to be a typical Paladin.
> 
> I do consider 'damage dealing' to be a (not the) primary emphasis for melee fighters.




Fair enough.



> You can never have enough Str, as a melee fighter. And 16 Cha isn't *that* bad, really.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




No, it's not.  Actually, I'm struck by something.  Another 2 Cha is (aside from a tiny bit of healing and more turning attempts) just +1 to all saves - which could be achieved using the next higher up cloak of resistance, a luckstone, a starting feat, or the like.  Of course, from 16 to 18 str you're looking at the next level of gauntlets of ogre strength to make that difference up. 

I guess I was biased towards attaining maximum saves possible since I'd already suggested Mettle down the line.


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## Klaus

Forget Bards and Sorcerers.

Go Hexblade all the way!

d10 HD, Full BAB, Charisma-based spellcasting, etc. You only need to be Hexblade 5 to become a Dragon Disciple.

Take Arcane Strike (CW) to swap spell slots for +1 to hit/+1d4 damage per spell level.


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## Thanee

Str just comes into play a lot more often... 

Another decent option for the Paladin-based Dragon Disciple would be Str 18 Con 16 Cha 18 and then pick up Divine Might. 

Bye
Thanee


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## moritheil

Thanee said:
			
		

> Str just comes into play a lot more often...
> 
> Another decent option for the Paladin-based Dragon Disciple would be Str 18 Con 16 Cha 18 and then pick up Divine Might.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Str comes into play more often than making saves?  Hrm . . . I'm going to go out on a limb and say it depends on your campaign/party/DM.  They're pretty even in frequency from what I've seen, but I can definitely see that I suffer from a bit of tunnel vision (current party has no rogue; traps = ouch.)  When you don't do as well on an individual str check or damage roll, it may or may not make a big difference, but when you fail a save, it tends to be catastrophic.  YMMV.

Turning based feats are indeed a good reason to get a high Cha


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## Thanee

moritheil said:
			
		

> When you don't do as well on an individual str check or damage roll, it may or may not make a big difference, ...




On one... no... on an average one, however... and don't forget, that the original comparison was between an 18 and a 13 in Str (with the 16 in Dex).



> ...but when you fail a save, it tends to be catastrophic.  YMMV.




Yeah, that's true, but the saves would be pretty good either way. 

Bye
Thanee


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## moritheil

Thanee said:
			
		

> On one... no... on an average one, however... and don't forget, that the original comparison was between an 18 and a 13 in Str (with the 16 in Dex).
> 
> Yeah, that's true, but the saves would be pretty good either way.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Correct; the original build I suggested was not a full plate build, and as such, would benefit from the dex.  Whatever you prioritize, if you go for full plate, there's obviously no need to have 16 dex since you'll pretty much never benefit from it.

Personally, in my heart of hearts, going for high saves would not only entail going for Mettle, but also picking up Evasion.  This precludes heavy armor and is an entirely different build and playing style.


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## Corsair

Barbarian 1 / Hexblade 4 / Dragon Disciple X

Full BAB, good HD, rage, fast movement, etc.


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## Scion

Corsair said:
			
		

> Barbarian 1 / Hexblade 4 / Dragon Disciple X
> 
> Full BAB, good HD, rage, fast movement, etc.




non lawful, non good. Interesting start on life this guy must've had


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## Jack Simth

Scion said:
			
		

> non lawful, non good. Interesting start on life this guy must've had



 ... and as there is no middle ground on the good/evil axis for standard dragons ... and his classes require him to be non-good....


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## the Lorax

I'm gonna go against some of the common thoughts, and suggest a human:

Bard 1
Bard 1 Ranger 1
Bard 1 Ranger 2
Bard 1 Ranger 3
Bard 2 Ranger 3

Favored Enemy +2 
Track
Wild Empathy
Two-Weapon Fighting (combat style)
Endurance
Inspire Courage (+ some other bardic stuff)

+4 BAB
+3 Base Fort
+6 Base Ref
+3 Base Will

35 (+5xInt Mod.) Bard skill points
21 (+3xInt Mod.) Ranger skill points

3 Extra feats

Ability to take Cure Light Wounds (and use a wand of such)


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## Thanee

moritheil said:
			
		

> Personally, in my heart of hearts, going for high saves would not only entail going for Mettle, but also picking up Evasion.




There's the ring, that grants Evasion... for later at least. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Shadowdweller

Sledge said:
			
		

> First off, the core DD is underpowered. I've done the math and it is basically 2 or so levels behind by 10th. That said, it has coolness. The thing to do with those stats is to throw an 18 into str and con, and the 15 into cha for the sorceror/bard level. Dex doesn't need to be high, because you really don't need the spells so ASF is irrelevant.



 Are you so very sure about that?  Have you noted the strength increases as compared to BAB reduction?  Have you checked the rules on secondary natural attacks recently?

DD definitely has potential for a combat class.


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## pbd

*Monk/Sorc/DD*

I like this idea.

Stat:

STR 18
DEX 18
Con 15+1
Int 10
Wis 13
CHA 12

take monk 6/Sorc 1 (This way, with a mok's belt you get 2 extra flurry attacks at no penalty, for d10 damage) then start on DD.  take shield and true strike for the sorc spells, try to get a rod of extend spell if you can, that way your true strike will last 2 rounds.  

On a full atatck you will have a huge amount of attacks:  flurry (normal +2 extra attacks), then 2 claws, then bite.  WIth true strike, you will do outrageous damage.

With the natural armor from the DD, you can end up with a good AC, not to mention lots of HP.


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## Deset Gled

I have built a DD before that played up the very nice bonuses to strength that the class gives.  Barbarian X\Sorc 2\DD X, putting as much into Str and possible, and only a 13 Cha.  I gave him a two handed reach weapon (he still threatens at 5 ft with his natural weapon), Improved Trip, Power Attack, and Improved Bull Rush.  He had great battlefield control, good hit points, and could match the other tanks in terms of damage output with no difficulty at all.  His AC was on the weak side, though.  If you want, I could post the build more completely sometime when I'm not at work.


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## Sledge

Yes I am sure it is underpowered.  Not unplayable but still underpowered.  The only things that keep it viable are the HD and the flight.  Great flavour though.  IMC I changed it to simply give a couple of caster levels instead of bonus spells.


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## Sledge

pbd what is the point of extending true strike?


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## RaVan

Tank you say? Forget the DD and go Half-Dragon/Barb, Fighter, or Ranger. It's Core (MM) and WAY better in a fight with the increased STR and CON. Other bonuses, NAT Armor +4... jeez +4!!!... and a breath weapon that can actually come in handy on occasion. 

House rule bonus ideas- Since there are only three in our party and the DM enjoys in-game ideas that would look really cool, have the party Magic User cast Enlarge Person and watch them sprout wings Muahahaha!

Negatives- Level Adjustment +3
Outweighed by the fact that, IT'S WORTH IT! +8 STR, Come on!

~Rav


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## Shadowdweller

Sledge said:
			
		

> Yes I am sure it is underpowered. Not unplayable but still underpowered. The only things that keep it viable are the HD and the flight. Great flavour though. IMC I changed it to simply give a couple of caster levels instead of bonus spells.



 See, it doesn't sound to me like you HAVE done the math.  So why don't you tell us what specific math you've done in this case.


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## Thanee

RaVan said:
			
		

> Tank you say? Forget the DD and go Half-Dragon/Barb, Fighter, or Ranger. It's Core (MM) and WAY better in a fight with the increased STR and CON.




At 10th level the DD gets full Half-Dragon benefits... without the LA. At least, I think so. 

Bye
Thanee


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## IcyCool

Thanee said:
			
		

> At 10th level the DD gets full Half-Dragon benefits... without the LA. At least, I think so.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Yep, including wings (regardless of size).


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## pbd

Sledge said:
			
		

> pbd what is the point of extending true strike?





Sorry, my bad, I though it gave +20 to all attacks for the next round.  Does it show I don't play casters much?


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## Scion

RaVan said:
			
		

> Tank you say? Forget the DD and go Half-Dragon/Barb, Fighter, or Ranger. It's Core (MM) and WAY better in a fight with the increased STR and CON. Other bonuses, NAT Armor +4... jeez +4!!!... and a breath weapon that can actually come in handy on occasion.




I dont much care for either overall really 

I think he'd be better off making a druid and going for dragon wildshape out of the draconomicon! 

Sure it'll take awhile, but hey, long term goals are good right?


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## Feldspar

Scratched_back said:
			
		

> *Starting Level:* 5th (I'm aware 6th is earliest for DD, just need advice on routes generally).
> *Stats:* _18, 18, 15, 13, 12, 10_ (+1 floating point for 4th level - Yes he's a lucky roller).
> *Race:* Flexible (Feel free to make suggestions for/against different races.
> *Sources:* Core and Completes only please.
> He said he's quite sceptical about their ability to tank because typically to get into the class you'd have to go via Bard or Sorcerer; not well known for their hitpoints or melee talents.



My current character is 5th level and about to go into Dragon Disciple. My plan is to make use of that increased strength to improve my tripping abilities.  Trip is a pretty dang wicked move to pull in combat; +4 to hit while they're down, AoO provoking move equivalent to get up.  The other melee combatants (Rogues, Clerics, etc) in the party love ya.  Here's what I'd go with if I were you:

Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Sorceror 1 / Dragon Disciple
Str 18 - this is your primary stat
Dex 15+1 - 4 AoO's with Combat Reflexes, +3 Dex perfect for Breastplate
Con 18 - sweet, sweet HP's
Int 13 - needed for Disarm
Wis 10
Cha 12 - you're only spellcasting to get into DD, you can neglect this

Race: human
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, _____
1st level Sorc spells: 
True Strike (no Somatic means no ASF; combine it with Power Attack)
Enlarge Person (awesome spell for a tank, reach, size bonus on opposed checks, extra damage from larger weapon)

My DM doesn't allow Spiked Chains, and I'm also pretty sure that he won't allow me to threaten both 5' and 10' by combining a reach weapon with my natural weapons.  But, if your DM will let you do that, that would be the way to go and you still have feat left over if you have to buy EWP: Spiked Chain or Two Weapon Fighting or something.

At fifth level, right now, while enlarged and raging you'd have a 24 str and bonus of +15 on opposed trip rolls against a medium sized creature - and you'll have reach.  DD will end up giving another +4 on that trip roll by the time you reach the end.

Since the roll to start the trip attempt is just a touch roll, you can even afford to convert some or all of that "+4 to hit prone target" bonus into Power Attack damage and get more use out of that feat.

As for the future, once you get your wings you'll probably want to get the feat that bumps up your manueverability class by one category.  That will let you hover which is a pretty big deal.


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## Shadowdweller

Feldspar said:
			
		

> My DM doesn't allow Spiked Chains, and I'm also pretty sure that he won't allow me to threaten both 5' and 10' by combining a reach weapon with my natural weapons. But, if your DM will let you do that, that would be the way to go and you still have feat left over if you have to buy EWP: Spiked Chain or Two Weapon Fighting or something.



 The DM will allow what the DM will allow.  The thing is, natural weapons don't work quite like manufactured weapons....in this particular case, you've no need of TWF at all (that I can see, anyhow).  You SHOULD technically be able to make a spiked chain attack and a bite attack with this combo in the same round....at no penalties to your iteratives (spiked chain) and a flat -5 from highest for your bite (or -2 if you have multiattack).

(Apologies if you knew this already.  I've been wondering whether this was understood by everyone.)


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## Thanee

Feldspar said:
			
		

> My current character is 5th level and about to go into Dragon Disciple.




Very similar to the Barbarian/.../Dragon Disciple who just died in our campaign. 

Not that this means to foretell your fate or anything... 

He had a ranger level instead of the 2nd barbarian level, though, and no Combat Reflexes, but EWP: Bastard Sword instead. And Cleave and Extra Rage later. Oh, and _Shield_ instead of _True Strike_.

Bye
Thanee


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## Feldspar

Thanee said:
			
		

> *Very similar to the Barbarian/.../Dragon Disciple who just died in our campaign.
> Not that this means to foretell your fate or anything...  *



Oh, I'm quite sure he won't last long. We're in the WLD and have already had one party wipe, so he's my first replacement.  I think one person might be on character number 4 - not sure though ...







			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> *He had a ranger level instead of the 2nd barbarian level*



1st level? for the extra skill points? With the Sorc level in there, I like the extra d12 and Uncanny Dodge.







			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> *no Combat Reflexes*



The best thing about Combat Reflexes, so far, has been that it allows you take attacks of opportunity even when flat footed.  Combine this with Uncanny Dodge from that 2nd level of Barbarian and I'm perfectly happy walking point in front of the rest of the party with my Guisarme. When something surprises that party and charges you ... and you trip it before it can even get to you ... now that is sweet!







			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> *EWP: Bastard Sword instead. And Cleave and Extra Rage later. Oh, and Shield instead of True Strike.*



That's ... odd. I wouldn't bother with a Bastard Sword unless I thought I might be using a shield - but then they also have the Shield spell.  Just feels like there's some wasteage there due to redundancy.  Also seems like with the high str that it would be advantageous to use two handed weapons as much as possible.

Very suprising to me not to have True Strike. Got tired of missing dark mantles due to concealment - started True Strike-Power Attacking them.  That was fun.  Miss a round (casting the spell), obliterate a dark mantle, repeat until out of dark mantles or daily allotment of spells


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## Thanee

Well, I didn't mean to say, that these changes would be better or recommendable... just what came to mind, where the character differed from yours. 

He, indeed, used a shield (a buckler). No idea, why he had the _Shield_ spell, I think he changed that from the initial _Identify_. 

_True Strike_ is definitely a good idea for such a character, as are some of the nice swift spell in Complete Adventurer, i.e. _Critical Strike_ or _Swift Expeditious Retreat_.

Bye
Thanee


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## Inconsequenti-AL

Considered making one of these guys for the game I'm playing in atm.

Always worth noting that True Strike is a V/F spell... no spell failure for casting in armour. Full Plate all the way. 

The DD gets nice Str boosts, but offsets their lowered BAB. If I wanted to play a fighter type, I'd definitely put one of those 18's into Strength... I'd put being able to hit stuff right up there on a fighters 'to do' list. I'd put the other one in Con, but that's just me.

Paladin 4/Sorceror 1/DD X is a very strong build in my opinion. Plenty of potential for interesting backgrounds.

Now a Gestalt Paladin/Sorceror > Sorceror/DD - that'd be 'interesting'.


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## ARandomGod

Thanee said:
			
		

> A dragon is terrifying.
> 
> That's just a weird-looking human, who breathes fire (or something else), that doesn't really do anything.
> 
> Using the breath weapon is just a waste of time, unfortunately. It might be good for posing.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee





Hey, it's also good for killing off those distracting swarms, lighting the campfire at night, an emergency lighting of a torch, killing off that pesky fly that's been bugging you all day... a finishing touch on a regenerating monster. Once a day, of course, so really you'll bypass all sorts of useful things to do with that weapon, waiting for that better one that just never comes...


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## bloodydrake

I'm curious what is change to the DD is needed to make this a viable sorcerer class.
It seems everyone is dead set against it due to limiting a sorcerer to 5th level spells and ending up having subpar melee.
I really like the idea of a sorcerer/DD as a natural progression in a character driven sense after 10th level.
This would be a purely secondary caster in the group not the primary.
He'd have major focus on firebased offensive spells and brass dragon as type and take the Engery exchange(actual name escapes me atm) feat cold to diversify the firebased spells he gets.
Would simply changing the levels that have no bonus spells to +1 to spellcaster level not give him enuff of boost bringing him up to acess to 6th level spells.

Would this change just be to much to be overpowerd?
I guess i really like the fluff of this idea just not sure how the crunch will hold up.


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## Thanee

bloodydrake said:
			
		

> I'm curious what is change to the DD is needed to make this a viable sorcerer class.




You definitely need to advance spellcasting ability. The bonus spells do next to nothing for a sorcerer (unless you are epic level, or very high already).



> Would simply changing the levels that have no bonus spells to +1 to spellcaster level not give him enuff of boost bringing him up to acess to 6th level spells.




That's what I would do as well. Or just give them a +1 effective level every odd level up.



> Would this change just be to much to be overpowerd?




It's hard to say. This would allow for a pretty buff fighter with decent spells. Maybe there should be some additional prerequisites in that case.

Bye
Thanee


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## RaVan

Thanee said:
			
		

> At 10th level the DD gets full Half-Dragon benefits... without the LA. At least, I think so.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee





Absolutely. But as a tank, why wait 11 levels, when you could be immune to <element>, breathing <element>, and have a likely +10 to hit /+12 damage (before any magic add-ons) at ECL 5?

~Rav


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## IcyCool

RaVan said:
			
		

> Absolutely. But as a tank, why wait 11 levels, when you could be immune to <element>, breathing <element>, and have a likely +10 to hit /+12 damage (before any magic add-ons) at ECL 5?
> 
> ~Rav




Because you'll only have 2 hit dice.  And a really bad will save.


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## Brother MacLaren

moritheil said:
			
		

> Go for Paladin/Sorc and put an 18 into Charisma. That way your save bonuses will be huge (+5 to all from Divine Grace alone once DD gives you +2 Cha.) If you're tanking, you're already taking damage, so you'd better minimize any incidental spell damage you take. Look into taking Pious Templar later for Mettle, too.



What's interesting about the Paladin/Sorc is that you can use Enlarge Person on yourself and have it affect your mount.  Right there in the "Share Spells" description - it will affect it even though the spell doesn't normally affect magical beasts.

Shield is another good one to share with your mount.  And from your Paladin list, the 2-for-1 Cure Light Wounds.


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## RaVan

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Because you'll only have 2 hit dice.  And a really bad will save.




We're talking about a tank. Tanks don't get good will saves, that's the compromise. But HP's are a concern. You will start off way behind, but with the heightened Con you'll mostly catch up in 5 levels. Here's a break down-

Rolled Abilities - Adjusted
Str 18 - 26 (+8)
Dex 13 - 13 (+1)
Con 18 -  20 (+5)
Int 12 -  14 (+2)
Wis 15 -  15 (+2) 
Cha 10 - 12 (+1)

Half-Dragon ECL 5
Starting AC Before Add-ons 15
Barb/Fighter  d12
HP (Average) 28
Fort +8
Ref +1
Will +2

Ranger d10
HP (Average) 25
Fort +8
Ref +4
Will +2

Normal race:
Reg AC (Before Add-ons) 11
Lev 5 Reg Barb HP 56
Lev 5 Reg Fighter HP 46
Lev 5 Reg Ranger HP 44

And here are the Ave HP's at ECL 10
Reg Barb HP 106
Reg Fighter HP 95
Reg Ranger HP 84
Half-Dragon HP 89

But if you're really worried about saves, consider this Paladin build. Hmm, Half-Dragon Paladin of Bahamut...

Paladin (switch Int-Wis-Cha)
Adjusted
Str 26 +8
Dex 13 +1
Con 20 +5
Int 12 +1
Wis 14 +2 
Cha 15 +2

Starting AC Before Add-ons 15
HD d12
HP (Average) 28
Fort +10
Ref +3
Will +4

So in summary, your Half-Dragon tank will likely spend her hard earned cache on things that will increase her Con and HP, and in the beginning at least, will want to be good friends with the party healer. She will probably have Bear's Endurance cast on her more often than Bull's Strength. Upside is, she won't have to survive as many rounds in combat and she doesn't have to spend her hard earned cache on exponentially expensive weapons to get great hits and damage (automatic +4) and exponentially expensive amulets of natural armor (automatic +4). Also, she can swim and climb in armor if need be, and doesn't worry so much about those pesky save-or-die fortitude rolls. 

Yes, it's a compromise from a standard Fighter or Barbarian Tank, but still, a much better tank than a Dragon Disciple no matter how you look at it.

~Rav


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## Klaus

One can also make a Monk/Sorceror, taking Ascetic Mage (levels stack to AC bonus, add Cha bonus to AC instead of Wis) and Force of Personality (add Cha to Will instead of Wis).

Natural Armor, ability to cast Mage Armor and Shield, level bonus to AC and Cha + Dex to AC.


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## pbd

I pesonally like the Sorc4/barb1/DDx build.  It gives 2nd level spells, access to true strike (use with power attack for a big hit), shield, and blur at second level; plus you have a 4th level caster ability.  You lose 1 BAB vs the sorc1/barb4 or sorc1/barb2/ftr2 builds.  You get a better (IMHO) spell selection that a bard build.

I have been thinking of playing a DD in a campaign (replacing a charcter that isn't working out too well) currently 12th level.  The charcter I cam up with is Barb1/Sorc4/DD7, weilds a spiked chain (has combat reflexes and improved disarm) and has true strike, shield, endure elements (flavor partly), and blur for spells.  The ability increases and added natural armor allow for a good AC and hp (even with the 4d4 for sroc) to provide staying power.  The character has decent fort and will saves, reflex is lacking, but high HP help that.  

Overall, not too shaby a character.


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## Thanee

pbd said:
			
		

> I pesonally like the Sorc4/barb1/DDx build.  It gives 2nd level spells, access to true strike (use with power attack for a big hit), shield, and blur at second level; plus you have a 4th level caster ability.  You lose 1 BAB vs the sorc1/barb4 or sorc1/barb2/ftr2 builds.  You get a better (IMHO) spell selection that a bard build.




I made such a proposal on the first page.  I would pick _Wraithstrike_ for 2nd level, tho.
Nasty little spell that one is.

Bye
Thanee


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## pbd

Thanee said:
			
		

> I made such a proposal on the first page.  I would pick _Wraithstrike_ for 2nd level, tho.
> Nasty little spell that one is.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




yeah, I was weighing in with my support, although I went back and I like he Sorc1/bard4/x quite a bit also.  

Unfortunately, we use core only, so no wraithstrike :\


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## IcyCool

RaVan said:
			
		

> Yes, it's a compromise from a standard Fighter or Barbarian Tank, but still, a much better tank than a Dragon Disciple no matter how you look at it.
> 
> ~Rav




Aside from aquiring the benefits of the half-dragon template slower, how exactly is this a better tank than the Dragon Disciple?

Take a Sorc 1/Fighter 4/DD 10 and compare it to a Half-Dragon Fighter 12.  The DD has a better Will Save, better Fort Save, and better HP.  The Half dragon has a slightly better BAB (+1).

How is the Half-Dragon a much better tank again?


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## LordBOB

hey guys why dont you throw in some monk levels as well.  This is b/c monks get AC from BOTH  WISDOM and DEXTERITY.  therefore pump those stats up and your set.  Your str. will adventually raise so you dont have to worry about that for now.  Also as your monk levels its natural speed increases so you can fly faster which is also awesome

Also correct me if I am wrong but someone mentioned useing a greatsword for damage, and im pretty sure that a DD is only profecient with natural attacks, so that means they cant wear armor or weild weapons.

And yes i think it would be GREAT to have a breath weapon.  Sure it isnt powerful in the beginning but when you reach lv.10 than it becomes full power.  Of course you can still use it only one a day which is horrible.  What i would try and do is to compromise with your DM to let your breath weapon act like a regular dragons breath weapon maybe by giving up a feat or two for it.  I know i would


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## pbd

LordBOB said:
			
		

> hey guys why dont you throw in some monk levels as well.  This is b/c monks get AC from BOTH  WISDOM and DEXTERITY.
> 
> ...
> 
> Also correct me if I am wrong but someone mentioned useing a greatsword for damage, and im pretty sure that a DD is only profecient with natural attacks, so that means they cant wear armor or weild weapons.
> 
> ...





The wisdom to AC bonus only works if you aren't wearing armor, which leads to the second point...

I think you may be misreading the armor and weapon proficiency portion.  For a pestige class with this wording it means that you don't gain any additional weapon or armor proficiencies; you still retain any you had upon entering the class.


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## LordBOB

really.......well thats kool anyway.


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## Night_Knight

I would take one level of warmage instead of battle sorcerer

A LOT more spells known 4,13 VS 4,1 (level 0,1)
More spells per day. 5,3 VS 4,2
Warmage Edge is a bonus.

d6 instead of d8 for hit points, enlarge person is not on the spell list, and no familiar are the only real drawbacks I saw.

Oh yeah don't forget to take practiced spellcaster so all your 1st level spells will be cast at up to 5th level of ablity! You should have about 10 of them before you are done with DD might as well make them a little useful... And they are very effective between 3rd and 5th... Well better than a normal mage's anyway.
At least that is MY plan... Haven't got there yet...


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