# Monk without being Lawful



## Herzog (Oct 22, 2008)

I am trying to find feats and/or PrC's for a character that has 9 (10?) levels of rogue and wants to add monk abilities.

Problem is, the character is definetely not Lawful, and the group has expressed sincere doubt the player is even capable of playing a lawful character.

So instead, I'm trying to help the player in question find monk or monk-like abilities that can be obtained WITHOUT taking levels in the monk class, or a different class that requires you to be lawful. He already plans on taking the whirlwind attack, but what other feats or PrC's do you recommend?


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## Angel Tarragon (Oct 22, 2008)

Dragon Compendium I has the Battle Dancer class, it has many features that are the same as the monk, but is limited to characters of chaotic alignment.


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## awayfarer (Oct 22, 2008)

Between the Book of 9 Swords and the PHB2 it is now possible (if a bit feat-intensive) to build a competent unarmed fighter. 

The Superior Unarmed Strike feat out of the Bo9S is really necessary for this. Basically it gives a damage progression similar to (but weaker than) the monk's unarmed progression, capping at 2d6.

I'm currently playing an unarmed tiefling scout. At low levels his damage output is pretty bad when not using skirmish, but I think things will turn around when he qualifies for SUS.


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 22, 2008)

Herzog said:


> I am trying to find feats and/or PrC's for a character that has 9 (10?) levels of rogue and wants to add monk abilities.
> 
> Problem is, the character is definetely not Lawful, and the group has expressed sincere doubt the player is even capable of playing a lawful character.
> 
> So instead, I'm trying to help the player in question find monk or monk-like abilities that can be obtained WITHOUT taking levels in the monk class, or a different class that requires you to be lawful. He already plans on taking the whirlwind attack, but what other feats or PrC's do you recommend?



 Ask him why he wants Monk?

If Wisdom to AC buy a Monk Belt: it does the same thing.

If Unarmed damage, take Superior unarmed Strike feat (same thing)


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## Barendd Nobeard (Oct 22, 2008)

Starbuck_II said:


> If Unarmed damage, take Superior unarmed Strike feat (same thing)




Also, if the DM allows it, Improved Natural Attack from the Monster Manual.  And have *Mighty Wallop* (or, even better, *Greater Mightly Wallop*) available, if possible.  Imp. Nat. Attack will increase your damage by one size category, and the Mighty Wallop spells increase it even more (esp. Greater Mighty Wallop).


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## Herzog (Oct 22, 2008)

The reasoning is actually kind of silly.

He saw the Feat that lets you add your monk level to your rogue level for the purpose of gaining unarmed damage.
This made him want to get a lvl of monk. 
When the DM, and actually most of the other players, said he couldn't because his aligment didn't match, he argued, but in the end (I think) he agreed.

However, for some obscure reason (even if the feat option would no longer be valid) he still wants unarmed damage increase. 
As I understand it, he would like to be able to do (lethal) sneak attack damage with his bare hands.

The Bo9S option seems a good bet, although we currently don't allow the book (mainly because we are hesitant about introducing stances and maneuvers, so maybe the feat will be accepted).

I think the Improved Natural Attack will be frowned upon, but I'll suggest the option.

The Dragon Compendium (or, to be more precise, anything from Dragon Magazine) is not really part of the 'normal' ruleset, and will therefore not be allowed, unless I can make a REALLY good argument to include it. But thanks for pointing it out!


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## Kristian Serrano (Oct 22, 2008)

Herzog said:


> The Dragon Compendium (or, to be more precise, anything from Dragon Magazine) is not really part of the 'normal' ruleset, and will therefore not be allowed, unless I can make a REALLY good argument to include it. But thanks for pointing it out!




What's the definition of normal ruleset? It's 100% official D&D content from Dragon Magazine and even bears the official D&D and WotC logos.

PS - I second the battle dancer option.


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 22, 2008)

Barendd Nobeard said:


> Also, if the DM allows it, Improved Natural Attack from the Monster Manual. And have *Mighty Wallop* (or, even better, *Greater Mightly Wallop*) available, if possible. Imp. Nat. Attack will increase your damage by one size category, and the Mighty Wallop spells increase it even more (esp. Greater Mighty Wallop).



 He doesn't qualify for Improved Natural Attack.

Unarmed Strike is only a natural attack for feats for the Monk (monk entry makes it both manufactored and natural attack).

THe PHB put unarmed strike in the simple weapon category in the weapons table  in the PHB. So that makes it a simple weapon.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 22, 2008)

*First*, I'll second the Battle Dancer.

*Second*, follow the link in my sig to the Monk Database and take a close look at the alternative Monks and PrCls.  Some do not even require levels in Monk, just a certain set of feats and skill levels.

Of note:

1) the Shou Disciple is a PrCl that doesn't require actual Monk levels, allows armor use, and eventually grants the ability to FoB with any weapon.

2) the OA Shaman and Sohei (especially after their Dragon #318 revision by James Wyatt, author of OA) have some Monk-like abilities.

3) the Chaos Monk (Dragon #355) is, as I recall, a Chaotic aligned Monk variant base class.

4) the Shou Disciple is one of the best Monk dip PrCls, with a single level granting a Wis bonus to Att & Dmg rolls.

*Third*, if your player goes one of those routes, there are several ways to gain FoB with non-Monk weapons.  Besides the aforementioned Shou Disciple and Sohei, there are several feats that grant FoB with selected weapons.  They are listed under the Weapon Focus header in the Feats section of the Database.

*Fourth*, AFAIK, the ability to treat unarmed strikes as natural or manufactured weapons is unique to the Monk class.  The revised OA Shaman's Unarmed Strike _does_ increase in power like the Monk's, though.


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## blargney the second (Oct 22, 2008)

Another recommendation for battle dancer.  Just get your DM to have a look at it - he might change his mind once he's actually seen it.


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## Shin Okada (Oct 23, 2008)

One of the easiest and non-arguable way to increase unarmed attack damages is, to take 4 levels of fighter and take Improve Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) & Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike). Then buy some good magic gauntlet.


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## Sylrae (Oct 24, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> One of the easiest and non-arguable way to increase unarmed attack damages is, to take 4 levels of fighter and take Improve Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) & Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike). Then buy some good magic gauntlet.




there is a chaos monk class that was detailed in dragon mag. I believe you can find it at crystalkeep.
Crystal Keep - D&D and d20 System


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## Voadam (Oct 24, 2008)

I forget if Beyond Monks by Chainmail Bikini games requires lawfulness for their full BAB monk alternative the martial artist.

I think there is a prestige class in Libris Equitis Compiled by E.N. Publishing called the dirty monk that is a non lawful dirty fighting style monk alternative.

Neither are official WotC but are designed for 3e under the OGL.


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## dystmesis (Oct 28, 2008)

Change your alignment to lawful. Take a level of monk. Then put your alignment back to chaotic or whatever. Task complete. Seriously, alignment doesn't matter in the slighest, I don't see why people even bother.


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## Dragonwriter (Oct 29, 2008)

dystmesis said:


> Change your alignment to lawful. Take a level of monk. Then put your alignment back to chaotic or whatever. Task complete. Seriously, alignment doesn't matter in the slighest, I don't see why people even bother.




The entire point of alignment is that it is your character's outlook. It doesn't just change overnight. It's like saying "I love chocolate" one day and the next screaming about how chocolate is evil and should not exist. It just doesn't happen, short of magic.

That said, creating a character above 1st level and making them ex-monk is possible. Really, the simplest way for a chaotic person to be good at hand-to-hand fighting is through Imp. Unarmed Strike and maybe going Reaping Mauler (PrC from CW, I think they are non-lawful).
(I can't comment on the PrCs mentioned by other posters since I don't know/don't have them available to me.)


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## Herzog (Oct 29, 2008)

In my (my groups) opinion, there are several points where alignment matters:

1. As a guideline for roleplaying your character. Large deviations could be a reason for the DM to suggest changing the alignment of the character. However, an aligment chosen at character creation should be seen an intention of roleplay, and keeping that alignment should be encouraged unless in-game situations have influenced the character to a point that he starts to behave differently.
2. As a strict guideline for roleplaying your character when an aligment is forced upon you. This is the case when a helmet of opposite alignment comes into play, or when you are temporarily playing an NPC. (for instance, when your character has been possessed, or replaced with a doppleganger)
3. When you want to change your alignment. If, for whatever reason, you want to change your alignment, the new alignment should fit your characters' actions. If not, the alignment hasn't changed at all (or maybe to a different alignment). It should of course be possible to get into a Monk class at some point, but in our opinion that alignment change shouldn't come easy, and as stated above, our group doesn't think the player in question can pull it off.

Of course, there are several playstyles less heavy on the roleplaying aspect where Alignment is just another stat. As there are retraining rules for Feats, skills, and spells, you could in a similar manner change your alignment.
I'm not saying that is badwrongfun, it's just not our way of playing...


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