# Warlock Feats



## Seeten (Jun 28, 2008)

Maybe I am missing something, but feats for warlocks seem to either A be nonexistent, or B require crazy non warlock stats

Stuff like Astral Fire requires Dex 13, and Dark Fury requires Wis 13.

I dont get it.


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## theNater (Jun 29, 2008)

Um, Improved Dark One's Blessing, Improved Fate of the Void, Improved Misty Step?


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## Seeten (Jun 29, 2008)

As a Fey pact Warlock, I dont see how useful an extra 2 squares of movement would be, and I cant make use of the other 2 at all...


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## theredrobedwizard (Jun 29, 2008)

Those feats were designed with the intention that all characters would be made using the Standard Array.  You end up with a good range of ability scores that allow you to take feats of this nature.  Yes, this means some of your points have to go into non-core abilities, but that's part of the game now.

Fey Pact Warlock (Human)

10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16

Str 10
Con 14
Dex 13
Int 12
Wis 13 (11 w/ Human Bonus)
Cha 16

You now qualify for both feats without overly gimping yourself.

-TRRW


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## theNater (Jun 29, 2008)

So, wait, is the problem that there aren't any warlock feats, or that there aren't any warlock feats you like?  Those are different issues.

Did you take Fey Pact because you wanted mobility?  A greater teleport range gives you more of that.  Sometimes those two squares will be the difference between an enemy hitting you with a major attack and a basic attack.


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## Seeten (Jun 29, 2008)

Hey TRRW:

I took 16 cha, 14 con, 14 int, 13 wis 10 dex 8 str, as a tiefling, this finalizes out to 18, 14, 16, 13, 10 8, I guess I could drop int a bunch, but its a prime warlock stat, where dex is supposed to be completely unused, with the exception, apparently, of Feats Warlocks care about.


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## Gloombunny (Jun 29, 2008)

theredrobedwizard said:


> Those feats were designed with the intention that all characters would be made using the Standard Array.  You end up with a good range of ability scores that allow you to take feats of this nature.  Yes, this means some of your points have to go into non-core abilities, but that's part of the game now.
> 
> Fey Pact Warlock (Human)
> 
> ...



The feats aren't nearly worth such a crappy attribute setup.   Hell, even if you restrict players to the standard array, putting the 14 into Con instead of Int and applying the human +2 to Wis instead of Cha weakens the warlock far more than getting the feats improves him.


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## Seeten (Jun 29, 2008)

I dont consider, "But Improved Misty Step exists" to be an example of "Enough Warlock Feats"

Maybe I am used to 3.5, or whatever, but between 1 and 10 I get what, 6 feats? And I can take Hellfire Blood, which is designed for Tiefling Warlock, then next seems to be Astral Fire and Dark Fury, both of which seem to use what the PHB describes are "Non warlock stats that warlock powers will never use" and improved misty step. So I guess, to me it seems like there is 1 warlock feat, 1 tiefling feat, and some other feats not designed for Warlocks, that they could use if they gimp their warlock stats?


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## Danceofmasks (Jun 29, 2008)

Well ... if you want to get mileage from shadow walk, you're going to need skill training (stealth) and skill focus (stealth).


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## MarkB (Jun 29, 2008)

One thing I'd like to see is a few Implement-based feats along the lines of the martial classes' weapon-based feats. That'd help out both the Warlock and the Wizard for feat selection.


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## Seeten (Jun 29, 2008)

Yes, and I like the idea of stealth, although this seems like more...why cant I take stealth as a class feat, I can take Thievery...


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## Danceofmasks (Jun 29, 2008)

Yeah well .. 'cos from looking at how shadow walk works, it's plenty strong as it is.
I'm from the school of "warlocks need 2 stats, and dex is one of them"


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## Nifft (Jun 29, 2008)

@ *TRRW*: I would never recommend that use of the human stat bonus points.

- - -

Cha-based Warlocks can benefit from Skill Training, more so than most other classes. Warlocks get free Concealment (nice for Stealth), and you have the Charisma to pull off a lot of Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Streetwise checks. You may have Arcana trained, in which case Ritual Caster is good. With your high Intelligence, you'll do well with the various knowledge-skills (Arcana, History, Religion).

If you're Human, you want Action Surge and Human Perseverance.

Extra teleporation is very nice. Don't think of it as "only 2 squares". Think of it as a +66% improvement in range.

Everybody benefits from Improved Initiative.

- - -

Why are you making a Human fey-pact Warlock? That's a sub-optimal race/class combo -- you are throwing away your best racial feature (extra At-Will).

Cheers, -- N


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## theNater (Jun 29, 2008)

Seeten said:


> I dont consider, "But Improved Misty Step exists" to be an example of "Enough Warlock Feats"
> 
> Maybe I am used to 3.5, or whatever, but between 1 and 10 I get what, 6 feats? And I can take Hellfire Blood, which is designed for Tiefling Warlock, then next seems to be Astral Fire and Dark Fury, both of which seem to use what the PHB describes are "Non warlock stats that warlock powers will never use" and improved misty step. So I guess, to me it seems like there is 1 warlock feat, 1 tiefling feat, and some other feats not designed for Warlocks, that they could use if they gimp their warlock stats?




Ah, I see now.  You want 6 heroic tier feats that your warlock will get good use out of.  Let's see what we can find.

Alertness: Nobody likes giving up combat advantage.
Dark Fury: All good and you already qualify for it.
Defensive Mobility: Warlocks have few close or melee powers, with this you are more likely to be able to afford to cast while adjacent to an enemy.
Fast Runner: Every now and then it's time to flee.
Ferocious Rebuke: Make your already impressive Infernal Wrath even better.
Hellfire Blood: All good.
Improved Initiative: Probably not as well as Alertness, but one or the other is okay.
Improved Misty Step: Useful sometimes.
Jack of All Trades: Always handy for skill challenges.
Ritual Caster: Arcana and Religion are both class skills, and rituals do a number of nifty things.
Toughness: Being harder to kill is always good.
Weapon Proficiency: When surrounded, bust out the Bastard Sword and carve a path to safety.

That's what, 11 feats?  Pick your favorite 6 and you're good to go.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 29, 2008)

Seeten said:


> Maybe I am missing something, but feats for warlocks seem to either A be nonexistent, or B require crazy non warlock stats
> 
> Stuff like Astral Fire requires Dex 13, and Dark Fury requires Wis 13.
> 
> I dont get it.




I consider this to be a feature to encourage players to not just pump the prime stat as high as possible, but instead to reward them for spreading their abilities around a little.

Cheers


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## Danceofmasks (Jun 29, 2008)

I think of it as _compensate_ for spreading stats around a little.
Such a feat gives you +3 damage. At epic tier. And costs you a feat.
It's still weaker than +1 to hit & damage always.


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## Seeten (Jun 29, 2008)

theNater said:


> Ah, I see now.  You want 6 heroic tier feats that your warlock will get good use out of.  Let's see what we can find.
> 
> Alertness: Nobody likes giving up combat advantage.
> Dark Fury: All good and you already qualify for it.
> ...




Without further ado, lets start:


Alertness: Nobody likes giving up combat advantage.

yawn

Dark Fury: All good and you already qualify for it.

Only because I dropped con to 14 and bought wis up to 13

Defensive Mobility: Warlocks have few close or melee powers, with this you are more likely to be able to afford to cast while adjacent to an enemy.

play better tactically?

Fast Runner: Every now and then it's time to flee.

...

Ferocious Rebuke: Make your already impressive Infernal Wrath even better.

seems pretty weak...

Hellfire Blood: All good.

My level 1 feat

Improved Initiative: Probably not as well as Alertness, but one or the other is okay.

I'll likely take this, but it doesnt excite me at all.

Ritual Caster: Arcana and Religion are both class skills, and rituals do a number of nifty things.

I have this pencilled in as level 2 or 4 feat.

The rest are just lame. I guess I was spoiled by tons of cool feats in 3.5

These seem to be boring, lame, and drag me out of character.


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## Seeten (Jun 29, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> I consider this to be a feature to encourage players to not just pump the prime stat as high as possible, but instead to reward them for spreading their abilities around a little.
> 
> Cheers




Why put in the PHB that "Warlocks will never need Dex or Str or Wis" if you expressly make warlock feats that use them?


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## Incenjucar (Jun 29, 2008)

I think he's trying to say that he wants to have a bunch of feats that make him explode people more rather than feats that round out his character.


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## Bison (Jun 29, 2008)

also keep in mind that yes you get 6 feats in heroic play, but you also get stat bumps at level 4 and level 8.  so you don't have to start out qualifying for all those feats at level 1.

true you are likely to want to bump up  your prime stat with each bump, but it still gives you a few more points to work with as you plan your feats.


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## Goumindong (Jun 29, 2008)

Seeten said:


> Maybe I am missing something, but feats for warlocks seem to either A be nonexistent, or B require crazy non warlock stats
> 
> Stuff like Astral Fire requires Dex 13, and Dark Fury requires Wis 13.
> 
> I dont get it.




So if you start at 11 you can pick them up via retraining in the epic tier.

At least you aren't a wizard, the two best and nearly essential feats have rough prereqs.

Spell Focus... 13 cha
Arcane Reach ... 15 dex


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## Verdande (Jun 29, 2008)

Incenjucar said:


> I think he's trying to say that he wants to have a bunch of feats that make him explode people more rather than feats that round out his character.




Seems like he's out of luck in that department.


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## Gloombunny (Jun 29, 2008)

Incenjucar said:


> I think he's trying to say that he wants to have a bunch of feats that make him explode people more rather than feats that round out his character.



Too bad he's not playing a rogue.  Then he could spend all his feats on stabbing people better!


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## hong (Jun 29, 2008)

Feats in 4E are heavily powered down compared to 3E. This is considered by the designers to be a feature, not a bug. Your main source of effectiveness should be your class powers.


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## fba827 (Jun 29, 2008)

Also keep in mind that, as of now, we only have the one book for 4e , so choices are somewhat limited.  As more PHBs (phb 2 scheduled for march) and arcane power source (scheduled for april), and what not are released, you'll have more feat options that are warlock-friendly.

(As opposed to 3.X, which you used as a comparison, they had more years worth of books put out, even 3.5 had 3.0 material to build off of right out of the gate since we got all the splat books fairly quickly right after 3.5's release)


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## theNater (Jun 29, 2008)

Well, I can't help you become excited by these feats.  But I do want to respond to a couple of things you've said.


Seeten said:


> Defensive Mobility: Warlocks have few close or melee powers, with this you are more likely to be able to afford to cast while adjacent to an enemy.
> 
> play better tactically?
> 
> ...



Can you teach me your tactical style?  The one that prevents you from becoming adjacent to enemies even when surprised or facing enemies that can teleport or shift long distances?  The one that makes it so that you never have to make a strategic withdrawal, even when faced with great numbers of vastly superior foes?

That would be handy.



Seeten said:


> These seem to be boring, lame, and drag me out of character.




Sorry about dragging you out of character.  My suggestions might be more helpful in that regard if I knew more about your character than:
Tiefling Warlock, fey pact.
Cha 18, con 14, int 16, wis 13, dex 10, str 8.
I'm sorry if I come across as snarky, but I'm feeling a little put upon because you started with "there's no feats", then, upon being shown one changed to "not enough feats", then, when shown several changed to "not enough feats that are in character".  Having the bar repeatedly raised on me kind of gets my goat.

Edited for grammar.


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## Gloombunny (Jun 29, 2008)

theNater said:


> Sorry about dragging you out of character.  My suggestions might be more helpful in that regard if I knew more about your character than:
> Tiefling Warlock, fey pact.
> Cha 18, con 14, int 16, wis 13, dex 10, str 8.



That should be plenty to tell that a bastard sword would be out of character.  Not to mention a total joke mechanically.


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## DracoSuave (Jun 29, 2008)

Let's examine a little remembered tactic from WAY back in the days of roleplay.

Many characters were designed around the concept of having a good AC and making attacks against them fall to the wayside...

But some characters developed the idea of DGH as even better than AC.

What is DGH?  It's called 'Don't Get Hit.'

See, if you have really good DGH, your AC became superfluous and unnecessary.  Mages exploited this by using the spell Stoneskin to negate what few hits came their way.  DGH would win the game for them, when AC was a non-issue.

Warlocks have one of the few abilities to give themselves DGH in 4th edition, altho it gets renamed to 'Don't Get Targetted.'

DGT Warlocks favor Dexterity, not for the bonus to AC, but because of the bonus to Stealth.  So long as you keep moving, you can remain Stealthed, enjoying the fact that a)  Most enemies won't even realize you are there.  n) won't target you if your existance is unknown, and c)  Even if they -do- know you're there, you still have that +2 to your defenses from concealment.

Not to mention, the benefit this tactic gives to your -to hit-, because of the +2 you'll get from combat advantage -all the time.-

So compare... is the +1 to hit +1 damage from that extra point in Charisma comparable to the +2 to hit +3 damage from combat advantage and Astral Fire?

Yeah.


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## oldbone (Jun 29, 2008)

Astral Fire and Hellfire blood don't stack their damage bonus on "Fire" powers... 

If yer a tiefling, Hellfire blood is much better than astral fire... + to hit is king.


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## DracoSuave (Jun 29, 2008)

oldbone said:


> Astral Fire and Hellfire blood don't stack their damage bonus on "Fire" powers...
> 
> If yer a tiefling, Hellfire blood is much better than astral fire... + to hit is king.





Altho, admittedly you can use the +1 attack and +3 damage from Astral Fire without problem.


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## Seeten (Jun 29, 2008)

theNater said:


> Sorry about dragging you out of character.  My suggestions might be more helpful in that regard if I knew more about your character than:
> Tiefling Warlock, fey pact.
> Cha 18, con 14, int 16, wis 13, dex 10, str 8.
> I'm sorry if I come across as snarky, but I'm feeling a little put upon because you started with "there's no feats", then, upon being shown one changed to "not enough feats", then, when shown several changed to "not enough feats that are in character".  Having the bar repeatedly raised on me kind of gets my goat.
> ...




There's no feats that do Warlock stuff. Weapon proficiency: Bastard Sword is not an example of a feat that meets any criteria. No one shifted the bar. No feats and not enough feats never included Alertness. I dont care about Alertness. What makes you think its a Warlock feat? It isnt. Warlocks are Strikers. That means they hurt people.

Rogues can take back stabber, two weapon fighting, weapon focus, and 12 more feats to hit people harder, without any of those requiring cha 13, or con 13 or wis 13 or int 13.

Reading out fighter feats from the book doesnt answer the OP, it essentially just threadcraps. "No warlock feats?? Why not use a Bastard Sword with your 8 str!"


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 29, 2008)

Seeten said:


> Without further ado, lets start:
> 
> 
> Alertness: Nobody likes giving up combat advantage.
> ...




If you ask for help and someone gives you help, don't be snarky or rude to people who have bothered to try to help you out.

Your original question could have been left to die with 0 responses, but people have spent time and effort to come up with possible solutions for you. The least you could do is be polite in responding to them.

Doesn't seem to be much point in keeping this thread open, unless you plan to change your ways. 

Do you?


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## Benly (Jun 30, 2008)

The short answer is: yes, warlocks are short on feats. The consequence of this is that you have room for Shenanigans. You have plenty of feat slots free to blow on multiclassing for oddball/utility powers or on training in a whole extra character's worth of skills if you feel like it.


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## theNater (Jun 30, 2008)

Seeten said:


> There's no feats that do Warlock stuff. Weapon proficiency: Bastard Sword is not an example of a feat that meets any criteria. No one shifted the bar. No feats and not enough feats never included Alertness. I dont care about Alertness. What makes you think its a Warlock feat? It isnt. Warlocks are Strikers. That means they hurt people.



Just because a character's role is striker doesn't mean that feats not improving damage are useless to them.  Combat Mobility is totally a striker feat.  Defenders and leaders often use melee abilities, and controllers have a large number of close powers.  Strikers are more likely to be using ranged attacks or moving around in reach of enemies.  Alertness is not a warlock only feat, but it is a feat that is useful to warlocks.


Seeten said:


> Rogues can take back stabber, two weapon fighting, weapon focus, and 12 more feats to hit people harder, without any of those requiring cha 13, or con 13 or wis 13 or int 13.



Have you considered the possibility that rogues get more damage boosting feats because they _need_ more damage boosting feats?  In the heroic tier, the only level where a rogue gets a power that does a number of weapon dice and is not met by a warlock power that does the same number of d10s is level seven, where the warlock is limited to d8s.  Given that the rogue's powers cannot be used with weapons that provide higher than a d8, I think the warlock has it pretty good on damage.

For improving your damage output, you may want to try multiclassing into wizard.  Using the power swap feat to pick up Spectral Ram as your 7th level encounter power gives you a little more damage.

If your actual complaint is that you can't boost the damage on Avernian Eruption as much as a rogue can boost the damage on Deep Cut, then I have no sympathy for you.


Seeten said:


> Reading out fighter feats from the book doesnt answer the OP, it essentially just threadcraps. "No warlock feats?? Why not use a Bastard Sword with your 8 str!"



I don't understand the term "fighter feat" in this context.  Can you explain what you mean?

Also, there seems to have been some confusion about the suggestion of acquiring Weapon Proficiency with a bastard sword.  The point is that there comes a time in every adventurer's life when not acting is preferable to provoking opportunity attacks.  In most such situations, making a basic melee attack with a bastard sword is preferable to not acting.  I'm trying to give you options for awkward situations, not another primary attack.


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## Seeten (Jun 30, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> If you ask for help and someone gives you help, don't be snarky or rude to people who have bothered to try to help you out.
> 
> Your original question could have been left to die with 0 responses, but people have spent time and effort to come up with possible solutions for you. The least you could do is be polite in responding to them.
> 
> ...




With all due respect, as you are an admin, and all, I think that was a legitimate response. Alertness is a boring feat, and I dont want it. It certainly doesnt meet the criteria of "Warlock Feat" as I see a Warlock feat. In fact, you know what? I'm done. Go ahead and lock the thread. I won't be back.

ENWorld has been on a steady slide from what it used to be, to what it is now. Frankly, I'm getting much more interesting replies and discussion in several other places. This sort of moderation is good for just about nothing. Telling a strength 8 character to use a bastard sword, and calling alertness a warlock feat are about as useful as not replying, to answer your own snarky question, so no, I am not thrilled to have non-useful answers. Sorry if that hurts someone's feelings.


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## The Sword 88 (Jun 30, 2008)

You can always just leave and go to the "other places" you mention.

But what did you expect for answer?  People to find some feat you overlooked?  Well there aren't any, too bad, yeah the bastard sword thing is stupid, but skill training stealth and skill focus stealth certainly werent stupid and have good warlock falvor in addition to giving another use for DEX which opens up the possibility of taking some of the DEX based feats.  As for Alertness, improved initiative, and toughness people suggested those because they are good for all characters.

Sorry that no one found that awesome feat that has no prereqs adn gives you a crazy bonus to dmg or to hit or whatever but it's not there so people did their best to help.

Oh and the bastard sword idea was really stupid.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 30, 2008)

Seeten said:


> to answer your own snarky question, so no, I am not thrilled to have non-useful answers. Sorry if that hurts someone's feelings.




I don't know what makes you think you can go on being rude to people (including me). You say ENworld is on a steady slide, and yet you are the one that I see being rude to people and not prepared to change your ways.

The good options that you had were

a) agree with me, and start behaving politely to people
b) disagree with me and email me with your reasoning.

Disagreeing with moderators in public in the thread is a no-no

Thread closed


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