# Race for Rogue - which is best ?



## Istar

Forked from: Eladrin Rogue Questions - skills and feats ? 



			
				Istar said:
			
		

> Everyone has been really helpful.
> 
> "Rogue Weapon Mastery" high crit 2D10 and 3D10 must be a no brainer on 18 to 20 crits.
> 
> Man Daggermaster rocks when you start adding it all up.
> 
> And 20 Dex at Level 1 is brilliant.
> 
> Does any other race make for a better Daggermaster Brawny Rogue than Eladrin ??
> 
> I am thinking this fey step aint quite as hot as it looked at first.




Is the Halfling defensive re-roll quite good, I cant quite get used to the concept of a Brutal Scoundrel Halfling pushing people about and knocing them down, do they have any penalties for their small size.

ie. I cant imagine a halfling knocking a Titan on its back, and I would assume a larger sized rogue to be more useful in the Brutal Scoundrel field.

So do most people go for an Elven Rogue simply for the re-roll opportunity ?

I am assuming the Eladrin, Halfling, Elf are the most advantageous rogues due to their +2 to Dex.


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## Istar

A 20 Dex, 14 Str , 13 Con Brutal Scoundrel Dagger Master Rogue.


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## Mr. Teapot

Istar said:


> So do most people go for an Elven Rogue simply for the re-roll opportunity ?




That's a big reason, but not the only one.  You also get a Wisdom Boost, which is good for Perception (ie, searching for traps), you can move an extra square to position yourself for a flank, Low Light vision is decent if you're sneaking (and only one race gets better vision), Wild Step and roup Awareness are both pretty good for Rogues, too.

If you're a Brutal Scoundrel, an Elven Rogue could dump Charisma and keep Wisdom up instead, without losing much.


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## DracoSuave

Drow is always good, the racials are rogualicious, and even if you don't bother with the Cha bonus and go brutal scoundrel, the Drow make for some good power hitting with crossbow technologies.


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## andarilhor

Gnolls too makes good rogues, especially ruthless ruffians ones.


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## scarik

For PHB races anything with +dex is good, I would Say Elf and Halfling are better than Eladrin.

If you include Dragon Magazine then Gnolls are good Rogues, about Halfling calibur.

If you can use the MM, then Bugbear is the Rogue King.


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## Istar

DracoSuave said:


> Drow is always good, the racials are rogualicious, and even if you don't bother with the Cha bonus and go brutal scoundrel, the Drow make for some good power hitting with crossbow technologies.




What are the Ability modifiers for this Race, cant seem to find the notes.
Also cant find "Cloud of Darkness" info.

A coward from way back I quite like the idea of sneak attacks with a ranged weapon, and also the 15% crit effect to be able to get a shot off with the Crossbow also.

In doing this extra shot can you use one of your normal powes on it ?

If anyone has the Race details for Drow any chance they could scan and e-mail to me at paul.magill@godfreyhirst.co.nz (cheecky aye, but maybe worth a crack)


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## themilkman

Istar said:


> What are the Ability modifiers for this Race, cant seem to find the notes.
> Also cant find "Cloud of Darkness" info.
> 
> A coward from way back I quite like the idea of sneak attacks with a ranged weapon, and also the 15% crit effect to be able to get a shot off with the Crossbow also.
> 
> In doing this extra shot can you use one of your normal powes on it ?
> 
> If anyone has the Race details for Drow any chance they could scan and e-mail to me at paul.magill@godfreyhirst.co.nz (cheecky aye, but maybe worth a crack)




The Drow information is in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide.  I think that scanning it in and e-mailing it to you would be a little too copyright infringementy, but I'll answer some of your questions...

Cloud of Darkness is an encounter power that Drow have to create small areas that are completely obscured and blind creatures within them.  Blind creatures grant CA, and obscuring allows for stealth checks, so this is good for rogues.

Drow get a bunch of nice bonuses to crossbows, particularly hand crossbows.  They also get a feat which lets you make ranged attacks in melee range without provoking opportunity attacks, which is pretty cool.  At some point, you're going to have to decide if you want to be more melee focused (and favor your dagger) or more ranged focused (and favor your hand crossbow).  Dread fang (in Martial Power) is a paragon path for Drow Rogue that offers some cool crossbow powers, but it's going to lock you out of those nice Daggermaster path features.

The bonus attack that you get from Two-Fisted Shooter is a ranged basic attack, so you can't use any powers with it.


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## unan oranis

the halfling rogue in our party fares well; 

their size plays into the artful dodger and at least one of the rogue powers requires your opponents to be larger than you (close quarters, very useful)

In the case of titan tripping I'd say shoelaces tied together?


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## Cadfan

There is no "best."

Rogues have good at wills.  Humans get more of them.  This is useful.  They also have feats and skills, which of course never hurt a rogue.

Elves can shift over rough terrain, which is very useful.

Halflings have dex/cha bonuses, and good skill boosts.  They can also stack a bunch of AC improvements until they safely ignore most OAs.

Eladrin teleport, which is like getting a superior version of Tumble at level 1.


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## thecasualoblivion

I would suggest Drow and Halfling over all other Rogue races. They have the perfect stat array for Artful Dodger(the best of the Rogue builds), and have very synergistic racial features. Halflings are mobile and hard to kill, while Drow excel at producing their own combat advantage. After Drow/Halfling, we have Eladrin, Elves, and Humans. Elves are probably the best of these, as you can dump Cha and go Brutal Scoundrel with good Wis and perception. They get a really sexy feat out of martial power too. Eladrin's teleport is nice on a Rogue, and the extra skill isn't anything to sneeze at. Humans are an underrated Rogue race. The extra at-will isn't wasted on a Rogue, and the +1 to Fort/Ref/Will is very nice, as are human feats and the extra skill. Rogues aren't terribly stat intensive, so you don't get burned by the lack of the second +2. 

Out of the PHB/FRPG/Dragon races:

1. Halfling--The standard
2. Drow--Almost as good as Halflings, and more powerful on offense
3. Elf--Sneaky Accuracy from Martial Power is teh sex
4. Human--Very underrated, and can do Artful and Brutal equally well
5. Eladrin--Teleportation is nice, and you should take advantage of the mobility to go Brutal
6. Tiefling--Artful Dodger maxes Cha so Infernal Wrath is nasty. 
7. Half-Elf--Pretty solid at Artful Dodger, and the +2 Con isn't wasted
8. Gnoll--Not a fan of this race in general
9. Genasi--Earthsoul=combat advantage, and you benefit from multiple manifestations as well
10. Dragonborn--bonuses to both secondary stats, but the Race isn't really built for Rogue
11. Minotaur--Minotaurs make for fine Acrobatic chargers, as strange as that sounds
12. Warforged--Well, you'll be tough to kill...
13. Dwarf--5 speed sucks, and overall the Dwarf doesn't serve Rogues well.


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## unan oranis

in defence of dragonborn rogues:

throwing a minor action breath weapon thats got a very high chance of hitting *someone* on a turn you missed using your backstab damage is really great...  happens almost every encounter in my group.

plus you can upgrade to lowlight vision if you like for the sneaking, not too bad at all.


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## Tony Vargas

One candidate for 'best' brutal rogue, out of the MM:  Bugbear.  Racial bonus to STR & DEX, plus /all/ thier racial abilities dovetail nicely with the brutal rogue.  


Dragonborn have high STR & DEX, both secondaries for the Rogue, so they're potentiall good rogues.  A 'balanced' rogue isn't exactly awe-inspiring, but a Brutal Rogue with a good CHA as well as STR and Sly Flurish with a sneak attack does about as much damage as you could hope for.  

Halflings are ideal Artful Dodgers, of course.

Elves make good, perceptive rogues - but better rangers.

Eladrin rogues suffer from a redundant INT bonus.  It's nice not being a dumb rogue, I guess, but you really get just about nothing for it - stat-wise, you might as well be human.

Tiefling Rogues make good Artful Dodgers, with thier racial bonuses to CHA, stealth & bluff (and attack bonuses, which are always handy for a striker), but INT is still redundant.


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## Victim

I like Elf; I'm more fond of brutal rogues than Artful ones.  You get Dex to boost your primary stat.  Since you don't need CHA much as an brutal rogue, going with Wis to make use of the racial bonus has its advantages even for a rogue.  Higher WIS -> perception (with a racial bonus too) will lead to a character better at dealing with traps, secret doors and ambushes.  Improved speed and ability to shift makes it easier to flank without inviting OA.  And since rogues tend to make few, but highly damaging, attacks, elven accuracy is pure gold - a ranger tends to spread out its damage between several attack rolls, making the power somewhat less effective.

For the Artful Dodger, both Halfling or Drow make an excellent choice.

As usual, Humans are up there, especially since rogues have good at wills.


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## Gruns

The corect answer is of course Dwarf.
Dwarf > all


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## jaelis

unan oranis said:


> throwing a minor action breath weapon thats got a very high chance of hitting *someone* on a turn you missed using your backstab damage is really great...  happens almost every encounter in my group.



Since you can't get sneak attack damage on your breath weapon, what makes this particularly useful?


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## On Puget Sound

> I cant quite get used to the concept of a Brutal Scoundrel Halfling pushing people about and knocing them down, do they have any penalties for their small size.
> 
> ie. I cant imagine a halfling knocking a Titan on its back




There are ways to manipulate larger opponents that don't rely on muscling them around.  My halfling rogue likes to duck under his big foe's reach and jab at various tender parts that are about eye level to a halfling, causing the enemy to scamper away in momentary panic.  Or sometimes he'll whack the point of the enemy's elbow (the "funnybone" spot) with his dagger hilt, sending a shock of pain that causes the target to reel back uncontrollably.  Or advance with such casual confidence that his foe takes a few steps back to reassess the combat.  All 3 of these are "positioning strike" or a similar power.


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