# Goliath Monk: Which Unarmed Damage?



## findar (May 22, 2007)

Ok.  I have a friend that just joined my game that is playing a goliath monk.  Goliaths are from Races of Stone.  Here is my question:

Does the goliath's Powerful Build mean that the character uses the unarmed damage chart for Large monks?

Powerful build allows the goliath to function in many ways like it is one size catagory larger.  This includes wielding Large sized weapons.  So does this mean that goliaths get better damage to thier unarmed strikes.


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## DJCupboard (May 22, 2007)

That's how I've always let my players run it.


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## Klaus (May 22, 2007)

I'd allow it.


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## glass (May 22, 2007)

*Just to be contrary...*

No. Powerful Build allows you to wield larger weapons, but it doesn't actually make any given weapon any larger.

A medium character with Powerful Build wielding a medium longsword does normal damage. Unarmed strike is no different from a longsword in this context.


glass.


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## kayn99 (May 22, 2007)

I would have to agree with Glass on this one.  


Kayn


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## Gnome (May 22, 2007)

By the letter of the rules - no.  As a DM I'd likely allow it, since it would be an equivalent gain that other fighting classes get for choosing this race, so I don't see the harm in allowing it for the Goliath monk.  Same applies to a Goliath soulknife IMO.


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## Flynn (May 22, 2007)

From the SRD (please let me know if the goliath version is different from the half-giant version):



> Powerful Build (Ex)
> The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.




Let's see... is unarmed combat an opposed check? Nope, so that part is out. Is his own unarmed combat something that can affect him? Nope, that's dished out to others. Is unarmed combat a weapon designed for a creature one size larger? Nope, it's his own natural weapon.

Seems to me that powerful build would not apply to unarmed strike damage.

Now, that being said, if you want to allow it in your game, it would probably be alright. It will create a pretty nasty monk, of course, but if you are already okay with the larger weapon damage being present in the player's hands, then you're probably okay with the increased unarmed combat damage.

With Regards,
Flynn


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## SadisticFishing (May 22, 2007)

Yeah, their hands are not Large, and they're stronger so they should do extra damage - but the 4 strength represents that.

So, medium damage.


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## kayn99 (May 22, 2007)

If you have to be careful allowing it.  The next logical step of the player is to see if the feat improve natural weapons will apply.  Now you will have monk's hand  damage 2 catagories larger.  You have to look at it from all directions; allowing something is ok, but you have to make sure you do not end up introuble 3 levels from now.  

Kayn


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## Sejs (May 22, 2007)

Technically no, that's not how it works.


That said, I'd let it slide.  It's hardly a big deal.


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## Gnome (May 22, 2007)

kayn99 said:
			
		

> If you have to be careful allowing it.  The next logical step of the player is to see if the feat improve natural weapons will apply.  Now you will have monk's hand  damage 2 catagories larger.  You have to look at it from all directions; allowing something is ok, but you have to make sure you do not end up introuble 3 levels from now.
> 
> Kayn




I'd definitely say that those would overlap rather than stack since the Goliath is still size medium.


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## blargney the second (May 22, 2007)

Have they used Powerful Build on anything other than goliaths and .5-giants?


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## frankthedm (May 22, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Have they used Powerful Build on anything other than goliaths and .5-giants?



Redcaps in the MM3 have it.

Powerful build does not give one larger natural attacks nor larger unarmed strikes.


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## Hammerhead (May 22, 2007)

No, but it makes the decision to play a Goliath Monk pretty bad, compared to a Goliath Barbarian or the like. Why not allow it? If he were any kind of martial character except for a monk, he'd be doing more damage with his attacks.


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## Arkhandus (May 22, 2007)

No, the letter of the rules is pretty clear.  Goliaths deal unarmed damage as other Medium creatures do.  They are able to wield larger weapons, but nowhere does it say that they are treated as Large for purposes of unarmed damage.


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## findar (May 22, 2007)

It kind of seems like what I thought.  It comes down to a judgement call.  Some people say that it shouldn't.  And some say it really isn't a big deal.  The player that is playing the character is in no way a powergamer.  She and I just trying to figure out if there was a clear wording or not.


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## IanB (May 22, 2007)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> No, but it makes the decision to play a Goliath Monk pretty bad, compared to a Goliath Barbarian or the like. Why not allow it? If he were any kind of martial character except for a monk, he'd be doing more damage with his attacks.




A goliath monk is getting plenty of extra power from his racial choice anyway, in the form of +4 on all his grapple checks and an extra +4 strength.

They make absolutely brutal grapplers already, I don't feel like they need increased monk damage as well.


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## Arkhandus (May 22, 2007)

No, it's not.  The rules are clear.



			
				System Reference Document - Powerful Build of Half-Giants from Expanded Psionics Handbook said:
			
		

> A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty.




Nothing in the description says or implies that a race with Powerful Build would deal unarmed damage as a Large creature.  The ability clearly describes the only ways in which a creature with Powerful Build is treated as being one size larger.  Unarmed damage is not one of those ways listed.

I'm just trying to make certain it's clear.  The rules are clear.


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## Hypersmurf (May 22, 2007)

Of course, if a goliath found an ogre's unarmed strike lying around, he could use it at no penalty.  A human would take a -2.

-Hyp.


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## cignus_pfaccari (May 22, 2007)

One could fairly easily slip in a substitution level to do that.  Maybe exchange Still Mind for it, and note clearly that it overlaps with Improved Natural Attack (Monk), so it doesn't stack.  That way, she's not out the feat, but she gets a benefit from the Powerful Build ability.  I mean, she could use a Large Kama, but that's just silly.

Of course, a somewhat cheesier way would be to take 2 levels of barbarian, take the Brb-1 sub level that turns you large when raging (Mountain Rage, it's called), and then dig out that issue of Dragon with the Chaos Monk variant, and take that for the rest of the levels, making sure to take some Extra Rage feats once in a while.

Huh...that's all kinds of rude, potentially.  I'll have to work on that some.

Brad


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## mvincent (May 23, 2007)

From the 3.5 FAQ (if desired):
_"*Does the powerful build racial trait change the damage
the character deals with unarmed strikes and natural
weapons?*
No. The powerful build racial trait allows the character to
“use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without
penalty” but doesn’t say anything about changing the damage
dealt by his unarmed strikes or natural weapons."_


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## findar (May 23, 2007)

Thanks, mvincent.  That's what I was looking for.


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## Machiavelli (May 23, 2007)

Okay... so he wears two Large sets of brass knuckles, gauntlets, etc...

If you want to obey the letter of the law, fine, but it won't actually hinder a Goliath monk.


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## satori01 (May 23, 2007)

You can make a strained argument from this line:

*A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons*

frankly it is not even worth the bother.  The Ultimate effect is not really that big of a deal.  I've had  an AE Giant/Monk in a game before w/ INA, still could not outdamage a two handed weapon and power attack.


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## boolean (May 23, 2007)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> One could fairly easily slip in a substitution level to do that.  Maybe exchange Still Mind for it, and note clearly that it overlaps with Improved Natural Attack (Monk), so it doesn't stack.  That way, she's not out the feat, but she gets a benefit from the Powerful Build ability.  I mean, she could use a Large Kama, but that's just silly.



I'd consider allowing a goliath to take INA as a bonus feat, replacing either the 1st or 2nd level bonus feat. (If I felt lenient I'd allow the player to choose it at either level. If I didn't, they'd have to take it as the 1st level feat.)


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## Hypersmurf (May 23, 2007)

satori01 said:
			
		

> You can make a strained argument from this line:
> 
> *A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons*




Not really.  Take a manufactured weapon.  Put it in the hands of someone with Powerful Build.  Does Powerful Build enhance or improve that manufactured weapon in any way?

-Hyp.


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## UltimaGabe (May 23, 2007)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> No, but it makes the decision to play a Goliath Monk pretty bad, compared to a Goliath Barbarian or the like. Why not allow it? If he were any kind of martial character except for a monk, he'd be doing more damage with his attacks.




Then again, what if the player wanted to play a Goliath Sorcerer? Would his Fireball deal d8s instead of d6s?

In other words, just because one race is better suited for one class doesn't mean it has to be suited for other classes.

-UG


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## pawsplay (May 24, 2007)

You know, the half-ogre (Races of Destiny) is only +2 LA and is actually Large.


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## Kmart Kommando (May 25, 2007)

While it doesn't look that bad to allow it, wait until he acquires a Monk's Belt, takes Improved Natural Attack, and Superior Unarmed Strike.  +2 size categories and +8 effective Monk levels adds up to one hell of a pimp slap.  Like 4d8 by 9th level, and that's not even pushing it.  You know they're gonna do it.  You don't pick a Goliath for fluff and role-playing.


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## Drowbane (May 25, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> While it doesn't look that bad to allow it, wait until he acquires a Monk's Belt, takes Improved Natural Attack, and Superior Unarmed Strike.  +2 size categories and +8 *9* effective Monk levels adds up to one hell of a pimp slap.  Like 4d8 by 9th level, and that's not even pushing it.  You know they're gonna do it.  You don't pick a Goliath for fluff and role-playing.



QFT


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## Kmart Kommando (May 25, 2007)

Drowbane said:
			
		

> QFT



Oops, forgot that Monk's Belt was +5 levels.


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## irdeggman (May 25, 2007)

Gnome said:
			
		

> By the letter of the rules - no.  As a DM I'd likely allow it, since it would be an equivalent gain that other fighting classes get for choosing this race, so I don't see the harm in allowing it for the Goliath monk.  Same applies to a Goliath soulknife IMO.





Even though the soulknife specifically gets a short sword sized approriately.




> Mind Blade (Su): As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for its wielder. For instance, a Medium soulknife materializes a Medium mind blade that he can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19–20/x2). Soulknives who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus.


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## evilbob (May 25, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> Even though the soulknife specifically gets a short sword sized approriately.



Actually, that's a pretty good side-question:  what kind of sword is "sized appropriately" for a goliath?  (Or did I just make a sex joke?)


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## irdeggman (May 25, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> Actually, that's a pretty good side-question:  what kind of sword is "sized appropriately" for a goliath?  (Or did I just make a sex joke?)





Well is a goliath a medium or large sized creature?

They are medium.


What is size for a weapon?



> Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
> 
> A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.





So a medium creature uses a medium size weapon.  Hence an appropriates sized weapon for a goliath would be a medium sized one.

This is per the RAW, of course.


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## NilesB (May 25, 2007)

kayn99 said:
			
		

> If you have to be careful allowing it.  The next logical step of the player is to see if the feat improve natural weapons will apply.  Now you will have monk's hand  damage 2 catagories larger.




Oh noes!!! Monks might be able to deal only slightly less damage than other melee characters at much less accuracy! The sky, it is falling!!



By the rules as written, just as clearly as Monks _do_ qualify for improved natural attack, Goliath Monks _don't_ deal unarmed damage as a large Monk. That doesn't mean it would be unbalanced for them to do so though.


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## evilbob (May 25, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> So a medium creature uses a medium size weapon.  Hence an appropriates sized weapon for a goliath would be a medium sized one.



I dunno, though; a goliath can use a large-sized weapon without penalty, and they are considered large for certain things when it is advantageous to them...  I understand that you're saying a strict reading of the RAW indicates "medium" is "sized" for a medium creature regardless, but I also think the goliath description makes a good case for large-sized weapons being "sized appropriatly" for them.  Eh; it's a judgement call, I say.


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## glass (May 25, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> Actually, that's a pretty good side-question:  what kind of sword is "sized appropriately" for a goliath?  (Or did I just make a sex joke?)



I'd say, based on nothing much at all admittedly, that any size of weapon they can wield without penalty is sized appropriately. So, either medium or large in the case of a goliath.


glass.


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## glass (May 25, 2007)

NilesB said:
			
		

> By the rules as written, just as clearly as Monks _do_ qualify for improved natural attack...



Have you not seen the threads on that subject? Some of us think that they quite clearly don't. Not that I rreally want to debate that again.


glass.


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## cignus_pfaccari (May 25, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> I dunno, though; a goliath can use a large-sized weapon without penalty, and they are considered large for certain things when it is advantageous to them...  I understand that you're saying a strict reading of the RAW indicates "medium" is "sized" for a medium creature regardless, but I also think the goliath description makes a good case for large-sized weapons being "sized appropriatly" for them.  Eh; it's a judgement call, I say.




Personally, for the mindblade, were I to make a call, I'd say the goliath gets the Medium version, and the half-giant, being naturally psionic to begin with, gets the Large version.

Admittedly, that's not terribly well-thought-out, but it's my gut judgement call.  (I love goliaths, and think that half-giants need more love in general)

Brad


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## irdeggman (May 25, 2007)

glass said:
			
		

> I'd say, based on nothing much at all admittedly, that any size of weapon they can wield without penalty is sized appropriately. So, either medium or large in the case of a goliath.
> 
> glass.





So if a creature has monkey grip (3.5 version) then a weapon of category one size larger would be "appropriately sized" for them too?


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## evilbob (May 25, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> So if a creature has monkey grip (3.5 version) then a weapon of category one size larger would be "appropriately sized" for them too?



Technically, he did say "without penalty," and Monkey Grip gives you a -2 penalty (I think it's for wielding a weapon inappropriately sized, actually).  But yeah, Monkey Grip works a lot differently than the racial feature, and I would not think it would be treated the same.


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## UltimaGabe (May 26, 2007)

glass said:
			
		

> Have you not seen the threads on that subject? Some of us think that they quite clearly don't. Not that I rreally want to debate that again.
> 
> 
> glass.




Quite a few people still think that they don't qualify for INA- but the issue was already clarified in one of the FAQs last year. (The only debate was whether or not a feat was an "effect" for purposes of the monk's unarmed improvement- and the FAQ clearly stated that YES, a feat IS an effect.) Anyone who still claims that monks don't qualify for INA is blatantly ignoring a rules clarification, and therefore have no right to argue. If I decide to ignore the Power Attack prerequisite for Cleave, do I get to argue that Cleave doesn't require Power Attack?

It's been clarified. A lot of people may not agree with it, but the rules have been stated. There shouldn't be any argument anymore.


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## Kmart Kommando (May 26, 2007)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> If I decide to ignore the Power Attack prerequisite for Cleave, do I get to argue that Cleave doesn't require Power Attack?



Actually, my Crusader in my Friday game has Cleave but not Power Attack.

Stone Power FTW!


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