# Dominate Person (Su) - Dispellable or not? (seems to be some confusion)



## Ferox4 (Jan 25, 2004)

I've searched through old posts and it seems no one has a steadfast ruling. That Ask the Sage post still has my head throbbing........

Perhaps I missed the thread that would give me the answer or perhaps there is no steadfast rule. 

Also, assuming that Dominate Person (Su) CANNOT be dispelled, is there really any protection from it (short of making your saving throw or killing the vampire)? Protection from Evil only buys some time. 

I know this is a tired subject, but I need to clear this up before next week.

Thanks


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## Piratecat (Jan 25, 2004)

Unless I'm missing something, I'm sure it can be dispelled. In addition, going to another plane (even with a rope trick) will temporarily remove control.


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## Ferox4 (Jan 25, 2004)

I thought that Supernatural abilities were not subject to Dispel Magic?


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## Nightfall (Jan 25, 2004)

Su abilities CAN be dispelled, negated or removed. Ex can't.


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## Ferox4 (Jan 25, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Su abilities CAN be dispelled, negated or removed. Ex can't.




Is this something that has been changed of late?

from the SRD: emphasis mine


> SPECIAL ABILITIES
> A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.
> 
> Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.
> ...




What's up?


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## Ferox4 (Jan 25, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Unless I'm missing something, I'm sure it can be dispelled.





			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Su abilities CAN be dispelled, negated or removed.




I just found this. I am assuming this is what you are referencing?

from 3.0 DMG errata:


> Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. This far-reaching  category includes the basilisk’s petrifying stare, the monk’s ki strike, and the ghoul’s paralytic touch.  Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed  or negated (such as an antimagic field). *A supernatural ability’s effect can be dispelled if the duration is longer  than instantaneous*, but a supernatural ability is not subject to counterspells.





* Note: This is from the 3.0 DMG errata and still doesn't answer my question for 3.5*


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## Caliban (Jan 25, 2004)

Where did you find the DMG 3.5 errata?   I didn't think it had been released yet, and I don't see it in the errata section of the WOTC website.


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## Ferox4 (Jan 25, 2004)

Caliban said:
			
		

> Where did you find the DMG 3.5 errata?   I didn't think it had been released yet, and I don't see it in the errata section of the WOTC website.




My bad, Caliban. I just assumed it was 3.5 - it's still the 3.0 DMG errata.

So now what am I to think about this? It was changed in 3.0 and subsequently changed back in 3.5? This makes no sense. 

Piratecat and Nightfall - what makes you certain that Su abilities can be dispelled in 3.5?

Caliban? You're always a definitive source. What's your take on this?


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## ciaran00 (Jan 25, 2004)

They can be dispelled. This is why Caster Level is specified under Su generally. If not, use the creature's HD as a guide.

ciaran


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## Ferox4 (Jan 25, 2004)

ciaran00 said:
			
		

> They can be dispelled. This is why Caster Level is specified under Su generally. If not, use the creature's HD as a guide.
> 
> ciaran




Can you please site where it says they can be dispelled?

All I can find explicitly says they cannot be dispelled:

again, from the SRD (also stated in the PHB, and DMG):

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). *A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.*


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## dcollins (Jan 25, 2004)

No. By the rules, Supernatural abilities cannot be removed with _dispel magic_. This is true in both the published 3.0 and 3.5 versions of the DMG (excepting that late 3.0 errata).

The recent response by the Sage actually re-emphasized this. Although he spilled a lot of ink getting it out, in short he said "no, _dispel magic_ won't work, but there might be some other spell that gets rid of it (depending on the exact Su ability)".

My feeling is that this sort of makes sense, if you look at the original examples intended for Supernatural abilities (in DMG). If monster-creators feel free to be putting any ability whatsoever down as Su, then the system breaks down.

Ferox4: It would be great if you could edit that post of yours above (the one posted at 23 past the hour) -- it still says on top that the quote is from 3.5 DMG Errata, which is incorrect.


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## Ferox4 (Jan 25, 2004)

:23 edit done.

Specifically speaking of the Vampire's Dominate (Su) - the only ways I can think of to get rid of the effects are (using core rules):

1. Make the saving throw.
2. Kill the Vampire(s) that dominated the PC(s).
3. Go to another plane until the duration of the spell wears off.
4. Cast Break Enchantment.

It can be supressed by Protection from Evil, Magic Circle vs, Evil, but that only buys time. Dispel Evil won't work because it can't dispel things that Dispel Magic also cannot dispel. I don't think Greater Spell Immunity can prevent Domination since Supernatural abilities are immune to Spell Resistance (Spell Immunity, Spell Resistance & Greater SI all being in a spell chain essentially).

What else am I missing? Wish or Miracle i suppose, but that's pretty extreme.


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## dcollins (Jan 26, 2004)

Well, the Sage did specifically say that _dispel evil_ got rid of the vampire's dominate effect. Now, perhaps he's outright mistaken. But, he would be correct if a narrow reading is taken:



> *Dispel Evil:* ... 3. With a touch, you can automatically dispel any enchantment cast by an evil creature or any one evil spell. _Exception:_ Spells that can't be dispelled by _dispel magic_ also can't be dispelled by _dispel evil_. (3.0 PHB p. 196)




The vampire's domination ability doesn't fall into the "exception" because _it's not a spell_ (it's a supernatural effect). _Dispel magic_ would dispel the _dominate person_ spell... so _dispel evil_ is apparently allowed to dispel the supernatural enchantment which otherwise resembles _dominate person_.

Admittedly I wouldn't want to argue that one in court.


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## Geoff Watson (Jan 26, 2004)

I thought that the (Su) note for the Vampire's Dominate ability was a typo. It should be (Sp); it's a spell-like ability because it's identical to a spell.

Geoff.


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## ciaran00 (Jan 26, 2004)

Ferox4 said:
			
		

> Can you please site where it says they can be dispelled?



Uh, I thought I had this covered, but I think that my headache from that previous thread is coming back.

ciaran


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## Ferox4 (Jan 26, 2004)

ciaran00 said:
			
		

> Uh, I thought I had this covered, but I think that my headache from that previous thread is coming back.
> 
> ciaran




C'mon - is that necessary?   ....... I tried to search for other threads earlier today and if I missed the thread you're referring to I apologize. How about a link?


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## Ferox4 (Jan 26, 2004)

dcollins said:
			
		

> Well, the Sage did specifically say that _dispel evil_ got rid of the vampire's dominate effect. Now, perhaps he's outright mistaken. But, he would be correct if a narrow reading is taken.......
> 
> .......The vampire's domination ability doesn't fall into the "exception" because _it's not a spell_ (it's a supernatural effect). _Dispel magic_ would dispel the _dominate person_ spell... so _dispel evil_ is apparently allowed to dispel the supernatural enchantment which otherwise resembles _dominate person_.
> 
> Admittedly I wouldn't want to argue that one in court.




I can buy that argument. 



			
				Geoff Watson said:
			
		

> I thought that the (Su) note for the Vampire's Dominate ability was a typo. It should be (Sp); it's a spell-like ability because it's identical to a spell.




I don't think so. Is this an assumption you've made or did you read it in some errata or in another thread?


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## Nightfall (Jan 26, 2004)

I just figured since it was Su, it could be dispelled since its affected by an antimagic effect.


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## Darklone (Jan 26, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> I just figured since it was Su, it could be dispelled since its affected by an antimagic effect.



Nightfall, the SRD quote above shows clearly that it's supressed in an AMF but cannot be dispelled


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## Ferox4 (Jan 26, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Unless I'm missing something, I'm sure it can be dispelled.




You're still playing 3.0, aren't you? I believe I remember reading that in a thread not too long ago. That would explain your stance on this issue (it was subsequently changed for 3.0).


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## ciaran00 (Jan 26, 2004)

Ferox4 said:
			
		

> C'mon - is that necessary?   ....... I tried to search for other threads earlier today and if I missed the thread you're referring to I apologize. How about a link?



Actually I was admitting that I'd given you a wrong answer. 3.5 MM disagrees with me, and I think that this should be acceptable (as a conclusion)?

ciaran


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## Ferox4 (Jan 26, 2004)

ciaran00 said:
			
		

> Actually I was admitting that I'd given you a wrong answer. 3.5 MM disagrees with me, and I think that this should be acceptable (as a conclusion)?
> 
> ciaran




I took it in the wrong context (obviously). I thought you were being glib instead of realizing that you indeed did not "have it covered." Sincere apologies, ciaran. 

Cheers,
F4


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## MichaelH (Jan 26, 2004)

The problem comes from the chart in the 3.5 DMG on page 290.  The text on page 289 says that Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled, but the chart reads that they can be dispelled.  I think the text description is correct and the chart is a misprint.


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## Ferox4 (Jan 26, 2004)

In part, yes. However, after seeing the text in the PHB, and in the SRD, I had written the chart of as errata.


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## MerakSpielman (Jan 26, 2004)

Are there other examples of (Su) abilities that duplicate spell effects? If not, this would be a good basis for the arguement that this is a misprint, and it is supposed to be a (Sp) ability.


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## Flyspeck23 (Jan 26, 2004)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Are there other examples of (Su) abilities that duplicate spell effects? If not, this would be a good basis for the arguement that this is a misprint, and it is supposed to be a (Sp) ability.



You've only got to look as far as the vampire 
Gaseous form is SU, and it does (more or less) dublicate the spell.

_"Dominate (Su)"_ isn't a typo. IMHO of course.


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## Len (Jan 26, 2004)

Caliban said:
			
		

> Where did you find the DMG 3.5 errata?   I didn't think it had been released yet, and I don't see it in the errata section of the WOTC website.



It's in the FAQ:


> *The text on page 289 in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide says a supernatural ability cannot be dispelled. Table 8-1 on the next page, however, says it can. Which one is right? If supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled, can they be removed or countered in other ways? What would happen, for example, if a medusa turns my character to stone? Can anything restore my character?*
> The table is wrong. While you cannot dispel a supernatural ability with the _dispel magic_ spell, you can remove or reverse its effects on an area, object (but not one in the supernatural ability user’s possession), or creature (but not the ability user itself) in other ways.
> _[snip]_
> Likewise, spells such as _dispel evil_ can remove supernatural enchantment effects if they duplicate spells that can otherwise be dispelled. For example a _dispel evil_ spell will remove a vampire’s _dominate person_ effect from a victim. Similarly spells that block mental control, such as _protection from evil_ or _magic circle against evil,_ suppress the effects of a vampire’s _dominate person_ ability, as noted in their spell descriptions.


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## Len (Jan 26, 2004)

_Double, double toil and trouble;
Server burn and forum bubble._


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## Ferox4 (Jan 26, 2004)

Even a cursory glance through the MM will show numerous Supernatural abilities that duplicate spell effects:

Phase Spiders have the Ethereal Jaunt (Su)

Satyrs have Pipes (Su) - this has the option of mimicking Charm Person, Sleep, or Fear

Ice Devils have the Slow (Su)

Quasits have Alternate Form (Su) - mimicking 12th caster level of Polymorph

Darkmantles have the Darkness (Su) - mimicks spell of same name

All the eye rays of a Beholder are Supernatural

you get the idea - and not one of the Su are dispellable by Dispel Magic! 

Supernatural Abilities are very powerful if you don't have the equivalent magical antithesis.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jan 27, 2004)

1) My understanding is that supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled unless stated otherwise.

2) There are exceptions to the rules, as the first post has already noted.


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## Ferox4 (Jan 27, 2004)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> 1) My understanding is that supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled unless stated otherwise.
> 
> 2) There are exceptions to the rules, as the first post has already noted.




And that's a wrap.


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