# Musings on a A Song of Ice and Fire [SPOILERS]...



## Celtavian (Jan 7, 2004)

I recently finished this trilogy. It was very well written with a compelling plot and interesting characters.

I would like to share some of my musings on the various characters to hopefully foment a discussion about the books. 

Eddard Stark: An honorable, extremely stubborn, naive man with little notion of how to engage in feudal politics. I don't think he deserved to die, but he definitely killed himself. He was a true fool.

Catelyn Stark: Loyal to her family. Protective of her children. Loving wife. Prone to emotional overreaction. Didn't like the way she treated Jon Snow, but not an uncommon reaction for a woman to feel towards the child of another woman conceived during an affair, especially in medieval times. 

Jon Snow: A good son. Loyal to his family. Jon Snow really survived a tough ordeal with the wildlings and proved himself a worthy leader. Hopefully Martin won't suddenly decide Jon Snow must die and kill off the one truly likeable character in his series.

Robb Stark: Too young to lead. Made some very serious and sad mistakes because of his youth that led to the loss of a war he might otherwise have won. A tragic character whose death was sad, and yet utterably expected. He definitely was Eddard Stark's son.

Bran Stark: A young boy surviving tough times. Bran never really came into his own during the trilogy, and I have high hopes that we will some interesting things from Bran in future books. I think the continuation of his story is the one I most anticipate.

Rickon Stark: Not enough to go on. I'm hoping the boy shows up as some hardcore war trained in the wilds shaggy hair and a huge wild dire wolf at his side.

Arya Stark: I didn't like this character all that much individually, but her journey was interesting. I think Martin pushed the envelope of verisimilitude with Arya. I found it hard to picture or 8 or 10 year old girl being able to slit a man's throat or stab even a boy to death. She is utterly ruthless for a young girl with an extreme vengeful streak. She'll probably return as some badass Braavosi swordswoman ready to take revenge. I wouldn't be surprised if she eventually ends up with Daenerys.

Sansa Stark: A naive, innocent girl with fairy stories in her head. Probably the most tragic character in the book besides Tyrion. At first I didn't care for her when she seemed like a selfish little girl willing to lie against her own sister to keep herself in the good graces of Cersei and Joffrey. Yet the ordeal that she had to endure was unbelievably sad and tragic. All the times she behaved courteously around the evil Joffrey made me want to kill the little bastard myself. Poor Sansa. And now in the clutches of Littlefinger who lusted after her from the first moment he saw her.

Robert Baratheon: Some men are meant to fight and some to rule, but not always both. A tragic character who lost sight of himself after winning an extraordinary victory. 

Renly Baratheon: A likeable fool well-loved by the people. I don't know if he would have made a good king, but he definitely wouldn't have made a bad king. 

Stannis Baratheon: For some reason, I really like this guy. I like his sense of justice and duty and his grim determination. The man doesn't abide fools and asskissers. It's fairly obvious that he probably isn't the champion of Rh'llor (probably going to be Jon Snow), but I still like him. I will enjoy seeing the continuation of his story.

Daenerys: I like her. She is an interesting little character. Kind-hearted, caring, yet she does what she must to live up to her family name. Those dragons will grow and Westeros will fall to her. I almost think Arya will be riding a dragon with her, but who can say. Martin really seems to like this character. Freeing a slave city, what is more noble than that.

Littlefinger: I still don't quite know where this guy stands. It's obvious he is obsessed with Sansa, but is that all he wants? Will he help avenge Catelyn? Did he kill the king because as revenge for mistreating Sansa or some other reason?This guys motives are ever-shifting and he is utterly full of himself. Very intriguing, clever character.

Lysa Arryn: Good riddance. Hopefully now her son Robert can be raised proper.

Cersei Lannister: The epitome of the cold-hearted, vindictive woman. I wonder if she really even loves her children or if she loves them only because they are pawns in her games. I don't like her. I'm hoping Martin keeps it that way when he writers her perspective, otherwise every Lannister will become tolerable.

Jaime Lannister: Obviously, first inclinations are that this guy is a selfish, arrogant, impulsive psychotic, which may have been true up to the point where he lost his hand. It was nice to see his viewpoint and learn the motivation for his actions. I could understand why he had no loyalty to King Aerys which led him to kill him even after swearing an oath to protect him. Jaimie's at least partial redemption made the character likeable. I definitely want to see what happens with him.

Tywin Lannister: The quintessential stoic lord who holrds his honor and power over all else. The man reaped what he sowed and deserved to die in the manner he did. Another example of Martin's sense of justice.

Tyrion Lannister: My favorite character. I found his witty jibes amusing and the way he played so many people against each other was masterful. A very well-written character full of depth, probably the deepest character in the story. When he finally killed Shae and his father, I knew then that Martin had a very developed sense of justice. "A Lannister always pays his debts." 

I hope Martin has good things in store for Tyrion. I see him making his way to Dorne and finding refuge there for killing Tywin since justice was promise. I hope he finds Tysha.

Sandor Clegane "The Hound": A loyal soldier who truly understood his place in life. I didn't like this guy after he killed Mycah the butcher boy. Martin did a masterful job of turning a soldier thug into a sympathetic character.

I really think he loved Sansa as much as a man like him is able. He was for so long consumed by his own rage that he knew little else besides killing to make give him purpose. 

I hope he is not dead. Even though his brother Gregor is presumed to be dying, he still has business with Gregor.

Gregor Clegane "The Mountain that rides": What a son of a bitch. This is one of the true black and white evil characters in Martin's trilogy. I mean c'mon now, smashing a baby to pulp and then raping the baby's mother. It doesn't get any more evil than that. This character is irredeemable. I'm glad he is poisoned. The only reason I want this character to live is so his brother Sandor can kill him.

Theon Greyjoy: He could have been likeable. An arrogant, overconfident man with too ambition for his own good. 

Meera and Jojen Reed: I like the children of Howland Reed. I can't wait to learn more of their father and their relationship to the Starks. It would be kind of nice to see Meera and Bran develop a lasting relationship.

Hodor: Anyone who has seen _South Park_ knows this is Martin's incarnation of Timmy a half-giant's body body. 

Beric Dondarrion "The Lightning Lord": I was really expecting more than an undead knight with all the hype surrounding Beric Dondarrion. But it sure did explain how he had supposedly died so many times, and yet kept fighting the good fight. I'm hoping they take some serious vengeance on those bastard Frey's. I really want something nasty to happen to the Late Lord Walder Frey, the old man has it coming.

Davos: I really like Davos. He is a good, honest man loyal to his king. Glad he survived the battle in the river and that Martin has confirmed the continuation of his story in the next book. 

Ser Arthur Dayne "The Sword of the Morning": I believe that was his name. I don't about the others who read the short excerpts about this guy, but I wouldn't mind a short story about him. He sounds like a serious warrior.

Ser Barristan Selmy: The old man is tough. I can't wait to see him go to work with his sword in service to Daenerys.

Sir Jorah Mormont: Hopefully the son of the bear will prove himself again to Daenerys. I wouldn't mind if he ended up on the wall as his father would have wanted it. 

I'll end here for now. I really enjoyed the trilogy and can't wait for the next book. Great writing. I read it because it was  highly recommended by so many folks on this board. I didn't know if I would like it because so often it was heralded as having morally ambiguous characters. But I didn't feel that the characters were morally ambiguous at all. It was the plot that was morally ambiguous given that it was a succession war for the crown of the Seven Kingdoms, not a battle of a good verus evil. The moral ambiguity fit the story and was not forced or gratuitous, it all fit. A very nicely written story.


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## KenM (Jan 7, 2004)

Tyrion is my favorite character as well, I say "the imp will be king".  I think Sansa will be a stronger charcter in the second trilogy, due to what she went though. I also hope that the keep Chersi a villian, but we know GRRM has some chapters from her prespective in the next book.


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## WizarDru (Jan 7, 2004)

There are no two-dimensional characters in this series.  I do believe that Cersei loves her children...so much so that she would do anything to protect them.  It will be interesting to hear what goes on in that cold, cold place that is her head.

The funny thing, to me, is how Celtavian descirbed Jon Snow as the only real likable character, and then proceeded to list at least four other characters he really liked.


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## Celtavian (Jan 7, 2004)

*re*



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> There are no two-dimensional characters in this series.  I do believe that Cersei loves her children...so much so that she would do anything to protect them.  It will be interesting to hear what goes on in that cold, cold place that is her head.
> 
> The funny thing, to me, is how Celtavian descirbed Jon Snow as the only real likable character, and then proceeded to list at least four other characters he really liked.




True, true. I should rephrase that as "traditionally likeable." hehe, though what that means is open to debate.


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## Vocenoctum (Jan 7, 2004)

Celtavian said:
			
		

> I recently finished this trilogy. It was very well written with a compelling plot and interesting characters.



 I started off liking it, but it grew old, so by the end, I was left with the feeling that I may not pick up the next one when it comes out.



> Eddard Stark:



Exactly, he sees his duty, and can't see the other options set out before him.



> Catelyn Stark: Loyal to her family. Protective of her children. Loving wife. Prone to emotional overreaction.



"emotional overreaction" being something of an understatement IMO. 
I hated Catelyn, every chapter of hers was riddled with (to my eyes) blatant stupidity, and not just her character. Since Robb's story was told with hers, he was doomed to die stupidly by the inclusion! 



> Jon Snow: A good son. Loyal to his family. Jon Snow really survived a tough ordeal with the wildlings and proved himself a worthy leader. Hopefully Martin won't suddenly decide Jon Snow must die and kill off the one truly likeable character in his series.



I think Snow's story is the central story of the books, the war is just to set the stage for it. He's on the front line against the REAL bad guys, and is the main character to grow and change in the series.



> Robb Stark:



Doomed, since he was in Catelyn's chapters. 



> Bran Stark: A young boy surviving tough times. Bran never really came into his own during the trilogy, and I have high hopes that we will some interesting things from Bran in future books. I think the continuation of his story is the one I most anticipate.



I know he'll become central, hopefully as Snow's side, but possibly falling to the Icey Side. His development was okay, but slow, too slow for me to take much notice.



> Arya Stark: I didn't like this character all that much individually, but her journey was interesting. I think Martin pushed the envelope of verisimilitude with Arya. I found it hard to picture or 8 or 10 year old girl being able to slit a man's throat or stab even a boy to death. She is utterly ruthless for a young girl with an extreme vengeful streak. She'll probably return as some badass Braavosi swordswoman ready to take revenge. I wouldn't be surprised if she eventually ends up with Daenerys.



Arya was my favorite actually, but her many trials began to grow repetitive. I figure she'll become one of those Faceless Assassins or whatever. The way she was raised, I have no trouble seeing her as vengeful. Possibly as she gets older, she'll get more perspective on the events, but I doubt it. As much as a liked her, she didn't really develop, except to become tougher to stand against what she saw.



> Sansa Stark: A naive, innocent girl with fairy stories in her head.



I think she's in shock at this point, but again I don't really see that her naive nature changed.


> Renly Baratheon: A likeable fool well-loved by the people. I don't know if he would have made a good king, but he definitely wouldn't have made a bad king.



Probably the best option for a King from all the character presented. He had knowledge of how to do it, and he did what needed to be done. He fell to dark magic, otherwise I think he could have won the day.


> Stannis Baratheon: For some reason, I really like this guy. I like his sense of justice and duty and his grim determination. The man doesn't abide fools and asskissers. It's fairly obvious that he probably isn't the champion of Rh'llor (probably going to be Jon Snow), but I still like him. I will enjoy seeing the continuation of his story.



He's like Stark, he's noble and such, but hideously blind to what lies in front of him. I see him getting redeemed just as he gets ripped to pieces by something Evil. 


> Daenerys: I like her. She is an interesting little character. Kind-hearted, caring, yet she does what she must to live up to her family name. Those dragons will grow and Westeros will fall to her. I almost think Arya will be riding a dragon with her, but who can say. Martin really seems to like this character. Freeing a slave city, what is more noble than that.



Daenerys didn't do much for me. A 13 year old going through the ups and downs of being a dragon queen. The story didn't really motivate me much. Maritn does seem to like the character, but in the sense of the "DM's Pet" way, where no matter what happens, she wins through.



> Littlefinger: I still don't quite know where this guy stands.



completely insane, irrational, whatever. I think he's serving the Icey Evil, and actually hope so, as maybe that can justify his evil plots. Evil Plots for their own sake just don't make fun for me.



> Jaime Lannister:



Starting as a self-centered character, who only needs to justify his actions to himself. He develops somewhat with his loss, and at least you get to see his self-justification from his POV. He should develop nicely in the later books.



> Tyrion Lannister: My favorite character. I found his witty jibes amusing and the way he played so many people against each other was masterful. A very well-written character full of depth, probably the deepest character in the story. When he finally killed Shae and his father, I knew then that Martin had a very developed sense of justice. "A Lannister always pays his debts."



I also liked Tyrion, but at some point just got tired of him. I think it was more a matter of "if you had said THIS instead", but there's also an element of his lack of vision as well. He never did see what was in front of him, even when the information was telegraphed. But unlike Stanis or Robert, he was portrayed as clever and clear sighted.



> Sandor Clegane "The Hound": A loyal soldier who truly understood his place in life. I didn't like this guy after he killed Mycah the butcher boy. Martin did a masterful job of turning a soldier thug into a sympathetic character.
> 
> I really think he loved Sansa as much as a man like him is able. He was for so long consumed by his own rage that he knew little else besides killing to make give him purpose.



I don't think he "loved" Sansa. He seemed very imbittered and I think saw her as a thing of beuaty to protect. Like Jaime, it's not so much that he changes during the book, as that we can now see WHY he is what he is.


> Gregor Clegane "The Mountain that rides":



He just seemed too cliche. I hate unbeatable warriors, and he should have died many times. I wish that the viper had won the match.



> Theon Greyjoy: He could have been likeable. An arrogant, overconfident man with too ambition for his own good.



Again, could have been a decent character if he'd just have said what I wanted him to say. I got tired of his father and his interaction, since at each point that his father accused him of being weak for being raised among the Starks, he should have commented "well, I was raised there because you were too weak to win".
Martin could have portrayed it more as his father not being able to look on him, since he marked the fathers failure. Instead it's just overlooked. For all that the characters portray, it was Theon that failed against Stark & Baratheon. It was his fault for staying there, where his father had left him.


> Hodor: Anyone who has seen _South Park_ knows this is Martin's incarnation of Timmy a half-giant's body body.



I just can't wait until Bran learns to "ride" him mentally and he goes about the battlefield smashing with a more graceful and intelligence master at the "helm".



> Ser Barristan Selmy: The old man is tough. I can't wait to see him go to work with his sword in service to Daenerys.



Finally, the noble warrior that has a clear sense of what's happening. Unlike Robert and Stannis, he sees what's in front of him, and looks for options. Unlike Jaime, his sense of honor is still intact in it's own way. Too bad he's mostly a useless side character.


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## johnnype (Jan 7, 2004)

What impresses me the most about the series is how all the characters, with few exceptions, are prone to make mistakes, sometimes grave mistakes that cost them their lives. 

I agree with almost all of your opinions. The only character that leaves me wanting is Daenerys. I found her story dragged on a bit too long. In the last book it finally picked up speed. I just hope she is able to keep her army long enough to make them worth something. 

Davos has to be one of my favorite characters. He is one of the few who actually does what I would do if I were in his shoes. One of my favorite moments in the entire series is when Stannis made him his right hand. I think I almost cried at that point. Finally, FINALLY! someone does the smart thing. Pure genius. 

A couple other characters that merit mentioning are the kings advisors. I don't really remember their names but I think they included among others, Varys and  Littlefinger (is this Petyr Baelish?). I'm talking about the guys who work for the hand of the king. What are their names? They are as influential as any.

Remind me, who are Qhorin Halfhand, Roose Bolton, Bronn, Jaqen Hghar?

One other thing, Here is a site that has portraits of most of the major characters: http://amoka.net/eng/gal/asoiaf/index.html

Enjoy.


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## Look_a_Unicorn (Jan 7, 2004)

johnnype said:
			
		

> What impresses me the most about the series is how all the characters, with few exceptions, are prone to make mistakes, sometimes grave mistakes that cost them their lives.
> 
> I agree with almost all of your opinions. The only character that leaves me wanting is Daenerys. I found her story dragged on a bit too long. In the last book it finally picked up speed. I just hope she is able to keep her army long enough to make them worth something.
> 
> ...




The characters "making mistakes" is also what I love best about this series- the characters are more realistic & approachable because of it.

While Daenerys story is a bit slow (compared to the fast-paced interactivity of Westeros only!), and indeed she does seem to be a bit of a "DM's pet", surely we can allow GRRM to, at least once, be unsubtle in his buildup towards future events (ie the quite likely triumphant entrance into Westeros of Daenerys, Dragon Queen)? 

Qhorin Halfhand: One of the Night Watch "heroes" that Jon Snow kills to show he's on the side of the Wildlings.
Roose Bolton: Lord of the Dreadfort, one of Winterfell's vassals. I'm not sure if this guy is actually the son of the Lord (who betrays Starks by capturing Arya), or the Lord who burns Winterfell. Don't think I'm remembering either correctly, but it's something similar.
Bronn: Tyrion's surprisingly loyal sell-sword.
Jaqen Hghar: The Bravo who agrees to kill three people for Arya when she's a servant?


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## WizarDru (Jan 7, 2004)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Again, could have been a decent character if he'd just have said what I wanted him to say.



That's a valid opinion, as much as I disagree with it...but strikes me as a really strange statement.


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## Endur (Jan 8, 2004)

I disagree with the below characterization of Eddard Stark.  He wasn't foolish.  He knew when he accepted the position of King's Hand that he was going to his death.  But his honor, the knowledge that Jon had been murdered, and the knowledge that the alternative was worse forced him to go:the Lannisters would have the position of King's Hand otherwise.  See page 63

It all goes back to his father.  His father and older brother went to see the Mad King Aerys even though they knew it probably meant their death.  They did their duty and now Eddard can not ignore his duty.  



			
				Celtavian said:
			
		

> Eddard Stark: An honorable, extremely stubborn, naive man with little notion of how to engage in feudal politics. I don't think he deserved to die, but he definitely killed himself. He was a true fool.




Jon is the brave hero and the main protagonist of the series.



			
				Celtavian said:
			
		

> Jon Snow: A good son. Loyal to his family. Jon Snow really survived a tough ordeal with the wildlings and proved himself a worthy leader. Hopefully Martin won't suddenly decide Jon Snow must die and kill off the one truly likeable character in his series.




Littlefinger is the main bad guy, playing both sides against each other.  He was responsible for the killing of Eddard Stark, then later the killing of Joffrey.  Along with Roose Bolton, Bolton's bastard, and some of the Iron men, one of the more despicable characters in the novel.



			
				Celtavian said:
			
		

> Littlefinger: I still don't quite know where this guy stands. It's obvious he is obsessed with Sansa, but is that all he wants? Will he help avenge Catelyn? Did he kill the king because as revenge for mistreating Sansa or some other reason?This guys motives are ever-shifting and he is utterly full of himself. Very intriguing, clever character.




Tyrion is the second main protagonist.  A sneaky hero instead of a brave hero.



			
				Celtavian said:
			
		

> Tyrion Lannister: My favorite character. I found his witty jibes amusing and the way he played so many people against each other was masterful. A very well-written character full of depth, probably the deepest character in the story. When he finally killed Shae and his father, I knew then that Martin had a very developed sense of justice. "A Lannister always pays his debts."




Lots of other characters, but I think the main three are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion.  I thought originally the Dragon Riders would be Dany, Tyrion, and Bran, but now I'm not so sure about Bran.


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## Vocenoctum (Jan 8, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> That's a valid opinion, as much as I disagree with it...but strikes me as a really strange statement.




Well, for Theon Greyjoy I mentioned it. His father and others repeatedly denigrate him for having lived among the Starks, but it wasn't his fault.
He could have fled or something, but he abided the terms his father set out in the defeat.

Over and over again, he tries to get past having been a prisoner, while he should have been pointing out that it wasn't HIM that failed. HE didn't get captured, his father (and/ or brothers) were the total failures that lost the battles in their ill fated conflict.

Tyrion seemed to lose his personality when talking with his father. I can understand that he may claim up, but that behavior isn't realy there. It's like he just stops being Tyrion. The fact as I'm reading their conversation many things that he COULD have said popped into my head, detracted from the story for me.

At various points in the novels, it felt like Martin just did stuff to advance the plots without really justifying it from the characters view. IMO of course.


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## ConnorSB (Jan 8, 2004)

Now, my only qualm is that my favorite character only made it into two or three chapters.

How can anyone forget Syrio Forrel? He was basically Arya's catalyst for the rest of the books. I mean, when in an Arya chapter does she NOT fall back on her water-dancer training. All those little catch phrases and such.

And he talked in the coolest way possible!

Him and Jaqen H'garr were my two favorites, although after rereading I'm starting to believe that they are one and the same. Jaqen's background is purposefully vague. Nothing is specific save that to get in jail he did "something bad that no one knows about but was bad."

And in the Soup chapter, when he basically whipes his face off and becomes totally different looking... could not he be Syrio? And Arya is going east, towards the Seven Cities... towards Bravos...


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## Endur (Jan 8, 2004)

That is one heck of an insight!  I'm impressed.



			
				ConnorSB said:
			
		

> Syrio Forrel and Jaqen H'garr were my two favorites, although after rereading I'm starting to believe that they are one and the same. ...


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## Nightfall (Jan 8, 2004)

Indeed.

Though for me the only true heroes died. Drogo's dead, Eddard Stark is dead, and Arthur Dayne is dead too. Course the entire Kingsguard died then, but I thought they were cool, the old ones before Jaime did the deed. But nice to see he's trying to make amends.


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## Celtavian (Jan 8, 2004)

*re*



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Tyrion seemed to lose his personality when talking with his father. I can understand that he may claim up, but that behavior isn't realy there. It's like he just stops being Tyrion. The fact as I'm reading their conversation many things that he COULD have said popped into my head, detracted from the story for me.




I thought all the Lannister kids including the grandkids stopped being who they were when Tywin Lannister was present. The man was used to absolute control and would have it no other way. I thought it was very realistic that even Tyrion felt "small" around his father. 



> At various points in the novels, it felt like Martin just did stuff to advance the plots without really justifying it from the characters view. IMO of course.




I remember feeling this way when Eddard Stark completely brushed Arya off when she was telling him what she heard below the castle, the two men conspiring to get rid of Robert. Eddard Stark was already suspicious, and it seemed too stupid for even him to ignore what his daughter had heard.


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## Celtavian (Jan 8, 2004)

*re*



			
				ConnorSB said:
			
		

> Syrio and Jaqen H'garr




I don't know if they are same person, but I would definitely not mind if Martin brings them both back as one or separate in future books. Both were cool characters.


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## Nightfall (Jan 8, 2004)

I'd much rather see Lady Dowger Bear in her own series. She's cool.


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## WizarDru (Jan 8, 2004)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Well, for Theon Greyjoy I mentioned it. His father and others repeatedly denigrate him for having lived among the Starks, but it wasn't his fault.
> He could have fled or something, but he abided the terms his father set out in the defeat.



I think it was more the phrasing that got me, than anything else.

As for the two instances you mention, I think they make perfect sense, both in the context of the characters and the story.  I've known many people who behave differently in front of their parents, particularly if their father was a powerful, domineering man who you feared....which is the case for both Tyrion and Theon.

In Tyrion's case, let's remember that his father can cow Kings, let alone Tyrion.  Tywin was not impressed with Tyrion's mental faculties, and had little use for him.  At the heart of it, all Tyrion wanted to do was get his father's approval...to get a measure of the respect his brother Jamie receives.  But he never could, never did and never would have.  Because Tywin was an absolute bastard.

In Theon's case, two different things contribute.  Theon was a fool, and the code of the Iron Men.  The Greyjoys barely even considered Theon one of them, as likely a turncoat as anything else.  He doesn't behave like a Greyjoy, really, and is almost a foreigner in some respects.  He's cocky, arrogant and inexperienced in the ways that matter most to them.  Further, the Iron Men are driven by competence.  He who is the smartest, most powerful and most charismatic will lead.  Take a look at how the next leader is chosen in the excerpt published in Dragon magazine a few months back.  Next, Theon is a constant reminder of a failure the Greyjoys would just as soon forget, and they resent him personally for it.  Is that fair?  No.  But it's very believable, especially given their beliefs.  Theon pointing that out would have counterproductive to what he was trying to accomplish.  Now that he'd returned, Theon thought he could sweep in as the new heir to the throne.  Given that one of his uncles had taken the priesthood, another had no designs on ruling the third had been exiled and his only sibling was a woman, Theon thought he was a shoe-in.  Therefore it did little good to anger his father by pointing out his failure to conquer Westeros.

And again, Theon is pretty intimidated by his father.  He just clams up in his presence, as all of the issues between them come up.  Not the least of which is that his father, like Tyrion's, has little use for him and thinks him an abject failure.  In fact, Theon's father thinks _less_ of him than Tywin does of Tyrion.  Tyrion is an embarassment to Tywin and a reminder of his dead wife, while Theon is just useless in his father's eyes.  Even Tywin uses Tyrion as a tool....Theon's father doesn't even have that much use for him.


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## Nightfall (Jan 8, 2004)

The difference between Tywin Lannister and Balon Greyjoy is simple. Balon Greyjoy is a land raiding, old school thinking man with dellusions of the past and present. Tywin Lannister is ambitious, plotting self-centered, arrogant SOB with a pride greater than all the wealth in all the Kingdoms. While both had sons they aren't proud of, at least Balon has an excuse for treating his as he does. He feels justified that he was robbed of the old ways.


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## Tsyr (Jan 8, 2004)

Now, see, strangely, I got a wholey different vibe from Daenerys than most people... I didn't see her as kind-hearted at all.


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## Cor Azer (Jan 8, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Now, see, strangely, I got a wholey different vibe from Daenerys than most people... I didn't see her as kind-hearted at all.




Care to expand upon that? I think she has a ruthless streak to her, or maybe it's just arrogant pride, but she does seem to care (or at least, seems to want to care) about others.


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## Tsyr (Jan 8, 2004)

Cor Azer said:
			
		

> Care to expand upon that? I think she has a ruthless streak to her, or maybe it's just arrogant pride, but she does seem to care (or at least, seems to want to care) about others.




See, I don't think she really CARES about anything (Excepting the dragons), except in that by presenting a caring image, she gains support for her cause. I think the ruthless streak is the true face of her personality.


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## WizarDru (Jan 8, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> See, I don't think she really CARES about anything (Excepting the dragons), except in that by presenting a caring image, she gains support for her cause. I think the ruthless streak is the true face of her personality.



I tend to think Daenrys isn't really emotionally mature enough to fully make such subtle distinctions.  I think that she cares, on an irrational, immature level.  I think she does care, but I also think that she doesn't fully empathize with anyone in a truly adult manner.  I think she's a confused teenager who's had a harsh life and has gotten an awful lot of power awfully fast, and while she has a backbone of steel, I don't think she's really all that savvy, just charismatic.  I think when her forces meet up with the Greyjoys fleet, she's going to be in a world of hurt, and a lot of people are going to end up dead.


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## Tsyr (Jan 8, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I tend to think Daenrys isn't really emotionally mature enough to fully make such subtle distinctions.




I've met far too many 5 to 10 year olds who are VERY skilled at presenting exactly the face they think they need to to get what they want to fully buy that...


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## WizarDru (Jan 8, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> I've met far too many 5 to 10 year olds who are VERY skilled at presenting exactly the face they think they need to to get what they want to fully buy that...



I didn't say she couldn't be manipulative.  However, speaking of the perspective of a father and an uncle, I can tell you that maintaining such a facade day-in and day-out for hourse, let alone months, is pretty much beyond most 5-10 year olds.


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## stevelabny (Jan 8, 2004)

I still think Jon Snow is the LEAST likeable character and the one most asking for a beating. Whines constantly about his duty, than abandons all logic and friendship to do his duty so he can look all noble. 
And even though I'm firmly on the Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon bandwagon, which would make him the central character of the series, I still hope right after he gets his moment of glory, any two-bit character with a sword cuts him down and says "You know NOTHING Jon Snow" as they spit on his corpse.

But thats just me :-D

But one comment to Celtavian:  Cersei will definately be more of a sympatheic character in her own POV. The mindless-masses ALWAYS are much easier on someone when they can see it from their eyes. Look at Jaime. Most readers talk about despising Jaime UNTIL he got his POV, and now some go as far as to call him a tragic hero. I don't know why the average person can't ever see a situation from the viewpoint of the "bad guy" otherwise, but thats the way its always been. This is my favorite part of the series though, that if you look hard enough, you can see every side of every story, whether you have a POV or not.


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## Pants (Jan 8, 2004)

Celtavian said:
			
		

> I recently finished this trilogy. It was very well written with a compelling plot and interesting characters.



Welcome to the fanbase.   



> Eddard Stark: An honorable, extremely stubborn, naive man with little notion of how to engage in feudal politics. I don't think he deserved to die, but he definitely killed himself. He was a true fool.
> 
> Robb Stark: Too young to lead. Made some very serious and sad mistakes because of his youth that led to the loss of a war he might otherwise have won. A tragic character whose death was sad, and yet utterably expected. He definitely was Eddard Stark's son.



I've heard a lot of people claim that Martin kills off characters for no reason whatsoever and then they proceed to cite Robb and Eddard as examples.  However, when I'd look at the situation, I'd come up with the very same belief.  The both of them made terrible, terrible mistakes and they died because of those mistakes. 



> Jon Snow: A good son. Loyal to his family. Jon Snow really survived a tough ordeal with the wildlings and proved himself a worthy leader. Hopefully Martin won't suddenly decide Jon Snow must die and kill off the one truly likeable character in his series.



Next to Tyrion, my favorite character in the series.



> Bran Stark: A young boy surviving tough times. Bran never really came into his own during the trilogy, and I have high hopes that we will some interesting things from Bran in future books. I think the continuation of his story is the one I most anticipate.



Like others, I found Bran's story the slowest and, at times, the most boring.  However, the way that his story ended at _A Storm of Swords_ really made me want to read more and more.  I'm dying to know who/what Coldhands is.  Some think he's Benjen, but I seriously doubt that.



> Rickon Stark: Not enough to go on. I'm hoping the boy shows up as some hardcore war trained in the wilds shaggy hair and a huge wild dire wolf at his side.



I foresee that Rickon will have a _very_ dark road ahead of him.



> Stannis Baratheon: For some reason, I really like this guy. I like his sense of justice and duty and his grim determination. The man doesn't abide fools and asskissers. It's fairly obvious that he probably isn't the champion of Rh'llor (probably going to be Jon Snow), but I still like him. I will enjoy seeing the continuation of his story.



I just hope that he grows out from under Melisandre's influence at some point.



> Tyrion Lannister: My favorite character. I found his witty jibes amusing and the way he played so many people against each other was masterful. A very well-written character full of depth, probably the deepest character in the story. When he finally killed Shae and his father, I knew then that Martin had a very developed sense of justice. "A Lannister always pays his debts."
> 
> I hope Martin has good things in store for Tyrion. I see him making his way to Dorne and finding refuge there for killing Tywin since justice was promise. I hope he finds Tysha.



Greatest character in the series, if only for the humor value.  Pretty much every chapter of Tyrion's is a delight to read.  He's cunning, smart, but he has his weaknesses and even though he knows his weaknesses, he still can't help but fall prey to them.



> Sandor Clegane "The Hound": A loyal soldier who truly understood his place in life. I didn't like this guy after he killed Mycah the butcher boy. Martin did a masterful job of turning a soldier thug into a sympathetic character.
> 
> I really think he loved Sansa as much as a man like him is able. He was for so long consumed by his own rage that he knew little else besides killing to make give him purpose.



The scene where Sansa sang him the song during the Battle of the Blackwater and he began to cry was so well written, I actually felt myself choking up.



> I hope he is not dead. Even though his brother Gregor is presumed to be dying, he still has business with Gregor.



As much as I'd love to see Sandor kill Gregor, I don't think it will happen.  Gregor is f-ing dead, at least that's how the end of _A Storm of Swords_ seemed to imply.  However, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe Gregor came back wight-ified and then Sandor got to kill him.  Imagine a Gregor Wight, smarter than the regular Gregor, but even more vicious and mean.   



> Beric Dondarrion "The Lightning Lord": I was really expecting more than an undead knight with all the hype surrounding Beric Dondarrion. But it sure did explain how he had supposedly died so many times, and yet kept fighting the good fight. I'm hoping they take some serious vengeance on those bastard Frey's. I really want something nasty to happen to the Late Lord Walder Frey, the old man has it coming.



Frey is dead.  Even if no one kills him, he's far too old to last much longer.  I foresee him dying in _A Feast for Crows_ in some way (probably in bed) and then House Frey will tear itself apart in a succession war.  Good riddance.

As for Beric, I'm more interested in seeing what the end result of all of these ressurections will have.  Even though I don't think he's Azor Ahai Reborn (that's Dany), I'm wondering what his purpose in the grand scheme of things is.



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> He just seemed too cliche. I hate unbeatable warriors, and he should have died many times. I wish that the viper had won the match.



Yeah, but with his status at the end of the last book, even though Oberyn lost, the Mountain didn't really win at all.   



			
				johnnype said:
			
		

> A couple other characters that merit mentioning are the kings advisors. I don't really remember their names but I think they included among others, Varys and  Littlefinger (is this Petyr Baelish?). I'm talking about the guys who work for the hand of the king. What are their names? They are as influential as any.



Didn't see anyone answer this but here are the current members (that I remember):
Varys 'The Spider' - Master of Secrets (can't remember the exact title)
Petyr Baelish 'Littlefinger' - Master of Coin
Grand Maester Pycelle
Jaime Lannister
Mace Tyrell

There are a bunch of other characters that served on the council at various times:
Renly Baratheon - Master of Laws
Janos Slynt
Oberyn Martell
Barristan Selmy



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> But one comment to Celtavian:  Cersei will definately be more of a sympatheic character in her own POV. The mindless-masses ALWAYS are much easier on someone when they can see it from their eyes. Look at Jaime. Most readers talk about despising Jaime UNTIL he got his POV, and now some go as far as to call him a tragic hero. I don't know why the average person can't ever see a situation from the viewpoint of the "bad guy" otherwise, but thats the way its always been. This is my favorite part of the series though, that if you look hard enough, you can see every side of every story, whether you have a POV or not.



Actually, I only started liking Jaime slightly after he lost his hand and when Brienne started wearing off on him.  I love the scene where he's in the Tower of the Kingsguard and he is reprimanding Blount and Trant for being useless fools.  Once he gets back to King's Landing and he actually starts trying to be a TRUE Kingsguard (trying to wipe away the whole 'Kingslayer' name), that is when he truly changes.


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## ASH (Jan 8, 2004)

I love these books. I really liked Arya.. There was something very real about how she reacted to things. Very much like a  child trying to stay alive.  I hope that she comes back as some great swordswoman.. I also hope she comes back with Dany. 

Dany's first few chapters were great, but all the chapters in the last book I found to be kind of boring. I still like the character a great deal. I just can not wait until she gets to where she is going.  

Jon Snow is a great character.  He is a man of the wall. Not of the wildlings...He had NO loyalty to them what so ever. He lied to them to stay alive, slept with Yigrette to stay alive, and the memory of Yigrette will haunt him forever.  I am anxious to see how his character will change. I also believe that he is the central character in the books.

I also really like Tyrion.  Jamie has a way's to go to redeem himself, and I dont know if he ever can, but he is going in the right direction.


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## Vocenoctum (Jan 9, 2004)

Celtavian said:
			
		

> I thought all the Lannister kids including the grandkids stopped being who they were when Tywin Lannister was present. The man was used to absolute control and would have it no other way. I thought it was very realistic that even Tyrion felt "small" around his father.



I can understand it, but as the chapters are written from his POV, I think his behavior change should have been noted. It still doesn't sync well with me, but I do acknowledge that it's a personal thing. It diminished the character for me that he didn't even think of such things, let alone do it.



> I remember feeling this way when Eddard Stark completely brushed Arya off when she was telling him what she heard below the castle, the two men conspiring to get rid of Robert. Eddard Stark was already suspicious, and it seemed too stupid for even him to ignore what his daughter had heard.




The whole Dire Wolf thing just resonated with me as a big "how can they ignore it" plot point. I accept that Eddard Stark knew he was going into a dangerous situation, but he seemed blind to everything else while doing it.

Oh, and I hope Arya becomes an assassin, gets her wolf back, and really gets revenge 

I really wanted Robb's wolf to have escaped, so it could ravage the place and really terrify the whatstherenames. I hated it when Catelyn was returned, due mostly to my "every Catelyn chapter is stupid" feeling.


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## ConnorSB (Jan 9, 2004)

Well, Martin has said that there will be no more Catelyn chapters. She'll be around, she just lost her POV.


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## Hypersmurf (Jan 9, 2004)

ConnorSB said:
			
		

> Well, Martin has said that there will be no more Catelyn chapters. She'll be around, she just lost her POV.




Sounds like a petition's in order!

_Braaaaa-ains..._

-Hyp.


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## Eosin the Red (Jan 9, 2004)

ConnorSB said:
			
		

> Him and Jaqen H'garr were my two favorites, although after rereading I'm starting to believe that they are one and the same. Jaqen's background is purposefully vague. Nothing is specific save that to get in jail he did "something bad that no one knows about but was bad."




While I like the idea and have read it elsewhere, the Syrio/Jaqen theroy just does not seem to hold water for me. There are too many issues about the strange assassain.

1) Why was he in jail in Kingspoint? It is pretty obvious that it could not have held him, nor could Yorean. 

2) Who was he sent to kill? (most likely suspect is Balon Greyjoy IMO)

3) There is some small nagging little piece of information that eludes my brain about the Braavosi and the various assassain groups that would make it unlikely that the Jaqen would pose as a water dancer....I will look on some of the sites and see what I can find about it.

4) When did his magic return?


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## Nightfall (Jan 9, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Now, see, strangely, I got a wholey different vibe from Daenerys than most people... I didn't see her as kind-hearted at all.



Course not. But she is compassionate to her people. She cares for them, even as she rules them.

Oh yeah regarding Ceseri, she may be human, but then so is Charley Manson. Don't see me shedding tears for him.


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## DMScott (Jan 9, 2004)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> But one comment to Celtavian:  Cersei will definately be more of a sympatheic character in her own POV. The mindless-masses ALWAYS are much easier on someone when they can see it from their eyes. Look at Jaime.




I think it's more that Martin works to make the character more sympathetic so people want to read those chapters. Jaime's dialogue and actions are actually different from the time he becomes a POV character on - he's portrayed as more intelligent and less capricious than his actions earlier would suggest.

Despite that, I'd still like to see Jaime die in some slow and painful manner. I don't care how much time is spent on him begging for the reader's pity. He's a great counterexample to the "characters that screw up, die" line of thought - from the king slaying through the attempt to murder Bran and onwards, Jaime has been a physically gifted, morally bankrupt, mentally weak putz. He's screwed up far more than Eddard and Robb combined. His continued existence demonstrates to me that Martin is showing that people rarely get what they deserve, which is true if not very encouraging.


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## ConnorSB (Jan 9, 2004)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> While I like the idea and have read it elsewhere, the Syrio/Jaqen theroy just does not seem to hold water for me. There are too many issues about the strange assassain.
> 
> 1) Why was he in jail in Kingspoint? It is pretty obvious that it could not have held him, nor could Yorean.
> 
> ...




Hmm... I've been musing on this for a while, and I've come up with a few thoughts. Some support the idea, and some don't.

First, why exactly did Yoren take Arya in the first place? Besides her being, well, a Stark.

Second, If Syrio basically changed his face and name while in the black cells (assuming he relented from the guards and they didn't outright kill him, how did he know that Arya was traveling with Yoren?

Third, if Syrio is Jaqen, did a "real" Jaqen ever exist?

Here's this for a theory:

Syrio is a Faceless Man (Are these different than the Sorrowful Men? 'Cause wasn't it a sorroful man that Robert sent against Danys?). He is in town on a mission, whether it be to kill or to recruit. To recruit, he decides the best way to find good canidates is to teach them young- hence posing (possibly legitimatly) as a simple weapons teacher/water dancer in from Bravvos. So he starts teaching Arya and can see her great potential-maybe she is one of the very few people born to kill. 

He trains her, protects her when the Lannisters take over, etc. After she runs away, he wins the battle (but doesnt kill his opponenent, as he was, you know, still around later). But he follows her and see's Yoren grab her and take her with him. So he tracks them. When he learns that she is going to go to the wall, he, secretly, follows them some more, finds a particularly silent prisoner who obviously doesn't have a background (people say he did something dark, but no one knows what). So he kills the origional Jaqen and takes his place, thus being able to keep tabs on his newest recruit.

And then he gives her the coin, as she has the potential. Basically he doesn't want to force her to do anything, so instead he gives her the coin and lets her decide to go to Bravvos on her own.

Oh, and as to when his magic returns, perhaps it comes back with everyone elses, when the dragons are born. The mages of the alchemist guild thing, the one that made the wildfire for Tyrion, he does note (and this is about 2 chapters after Jaqen does his face-thing), that the magic seems to have returned, as they have made far more Wildfire than they used to be able to...


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jan 9, 2004)

Minor hijack -- has anyone seen SoI&F in an audio format?  My wife would probably enjoy them, but she's such a slow and inconsistent reader she's too intimidated by the length of the books.  She plows through books on tape/CD, though.


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## Eosin the Red (Jan 10, 2004)

ConnorSB said:
			
		

> Oh, and as to when his magic returns, perhaps it comes back with everyone elses, when the dragons are born. The mages of the alchemist guild thing, the one that made the wildfire for Tyrion, he does note (and this is about 2 chapters after Jaqen does his face-thing), that the magic seems to have returned, as they have made far more Wildfire than they used to be able to...




A little reflection...when did Syrio "change" forms? That would require magic and I don't think it was very powerful at that point. I don't think the dragons were reborn when we met Jaqen....of course since the two stories are 100% divorced from each other I assume that it is possible there was some time differences.


My theroy....Arya will at some point be forced to choose between Syrio (who survived) and the Waterdancers (good) or Jaqen and the Faceless Assassains (evil). These are the two destinies laid out before her, give into hate and fear and turn into what you despise or walk away from that and let the hate, fear and loss flow through you like water; affecting you and mingling with you but not directing you, not consuming you. Waterdancing and Syrio are her only hope for "redemption."

Snow faces a similar delema in his future; abandoned his oaths and the nightwatch and lead "men" to victory (possibly with Dany) or hold to his oaths and be honurable *just like* his Ned (I was gonna say his father ).

The Sorrowful men are the ones who tried to get Dany. Faceless men are a different magic assassain sect....I loose track of the wierd magic stuff on the eastern continent....and I don't think we have enough to piece allot of this stuff together. The Red Witch is from Bravoos (iirc) and could very well be mixed in with the assassains (or choosing their targets).

Fire and Ice....which is the bad guy.....are both bad....and why are the Seven so powerless while the other "gods" gain strength in leaps and bounds. Where are the older gods of the Wier woods.....The real battle is shaping up and "divine" powers have chosen to fight this battle out on Westeros while Westeros rips itself apart in a succession crisis. As much as I want book four....I really want book five when some of this stuff starts really coming into play. 

Why do the old gods of the Wier Woods want the Starks alive so much? The only action seen by the Old Ones is the omen of the Stag and the Dire Wolves and the protection of the Dire Wolves for the children. The problem with that protection is that the kids (barring Snow) did not know how to listen to thier Guardians. Even Jon does not understand that Ghost is the Old Ones trying to save him....surley as the Dragons are to save Dany. Magic started escalating in book one......the Dragons came but so did the Dire Wolves......?? Losts of really cool questions but no real answers.


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## Nightfall (Jan 10, 2004)

I'd like to state while I did want to torture Jaime, I'll just be content with him dying of a grevious wound in battle. But Cerisi has nothing redeemable about her. I read her POV. There's still nothing I find remotely human about her. Her lack of empathy is as much as sign of true sociapathology as well as her own need to have sex with herself or Jaime.


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## ShadowX (Jan 10, 2004)

I find 2 two problems stick out to me when analyzing the books.

1)  I find none of the characters sympathetic, most of them I find obnoxious and imbecilic.  I liked Ned, but he is dead.  Tyrion is now the only character I adore and empathize with.  Unlikable characters are not conducive to a story.

2)  Books 2 and 3 appear stretched and artificially elongated.  Martin's original idea for a trilogy should have been conserved.  Of course, maybe this was because I thought it was a trilogy until I realized during the 3rd book that this would not conclude the saga.


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## Kahuna Burger (Jan 10, 2004)

ConnorSB said:
			
		

> Him and Jaqen H'garr were my two favorites, although after rereading I'm starting to believe that they are one and the same. Jaqen's background is purposefully vague. Nothing is specific save that to get in jail he did "something bad that no one knows about but was bad."
> 
> And in the Soup chapter, when he basically whipes his face off and becomes totally different looking... could not he be Syrio? And Arya is going east, towards the Seven Cities... towards Bravos...




I'm glad I'm not the only one who considered this as a serious possibility... didn't reread, but it was something that came to me after I was done, around the same time as _"What the hell is up with those moronic horn codes? Who invented those?"_   I won't be continuing the books, but luckily my husband will and can give me the spoilers and answers to any questions I still have. 

Kahuna Burger


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## Tsyr (Jan 10, 2004)

ShadowX, don't ya like Jon?


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## Tiefling (Jan 10, 2004)

Look_a_Unicorn said:
			
		

> Roose Bolton: Lord of the Dreadfort, one of Winterfell's vassals. I'm not sure if this guy is actually the son of the Lord (who betrays Starks by capturing Arya), or the Lord who burns Winterfell. Don't think I'm remembering either correctly, but it's something similar.




Roose Bolton is indeed the Lord of the Dreadfort, and is the man who took Harrenhal from the Brave Companions while Arya was there. Since he did not know who she was, there was no betrayal. However, he did betray Robb Stark by allowing Jaime Lannister to continue to King's Landing, and later, of course, at the Red Wedding. Ramsay Snow (or Ramsay Bolton) is Roose Bolton's natural son, and the man who burned Winterfell.



			
				ConnorSB said:
			
		

> Syrio is a Faceless Man (Are these different than the Sorrowful Men? 'Cause wasn't it a sorroful man that Robert sent against Danys?).




The sorrowful men are a different organization. Robert does not send a specific assassin after Dany, but rather offers a lordship to whomsever kills her. The sorrowful man who attempted to kill Dany was sent by Pyat Pree and the Warlocks after she destroyed the Palace of Dust.



			
				Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Minor hijack -- has anyone seen SoI&F in an audio format?  My wife would probably enjoy them, but she's such a slow and inconsistent reader she's too intimidated by the length of the books.  She plows through books on tape/CD, though.




GRRM reports on his website that a book-on-tape version of the first three novels is in the works. The GoT one is about 40 tapes long, as I recall.



			
				Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> My theroy....Arya will at some point be forced to choose between Syrio (who survived) and the Waterdancers (good) or Jaqen and the Faceless Assassains (evil).




There's no real indication that the water dancers are good or that the faceless men are evil. From the preview chapters there is strong indication that the faceless men are a religious order of sorts, but otherwise we know little.



> The Red Witch is from Bravoos (iirc) and could very well be mixed in with the assassains (or choosing their targets).




Melisandre is from Asshai-by-the-Shadow, so the possibility of an affiliation with the sorrowful or faceless men is remote.


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## Nightfall (Jan 11, 2004)

Tief,

Are you sure the Faceless Men are a religious order? I thought they were just killers is all. Now maybe the Sorrowful man might be. But I could be wrong. Just help a guy out here.


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## Tiefling (Jan 12, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Tief,
> 
> Are you sure the Faceless Men are a religious order? I thought they were just killers is all. Now maybe the Sorrowful man might be. But I could be wrong. Just help a guy out here.




Pretty sure. Read this page:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/chapter.html

_[Note: Page contains sample chapter from A Feast for Crows.  Spoiler warning. -Hyp.]_


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## ConnorSB (Jan 12, 2004)

Whoa.... trippy. It was almost exactly what I was expecting of Arya, but... awsome.


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## Hypersmurf (Jan 12, 2004)

Tiefling - I've just added a warning to your post for anyone who might not want to read excerpts until the book comes out.  Hope you don't mind.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


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## Celtavian (Jan 13, 2004)

*re*



			
				Tiefling said:
			
		

> Pretty sure. Read this page:
> 
> http://www.georgerrmartin.com/chapter.html
> 
> _[Note: Page contains sample chapter from A Feast for Crows.  Spoiler warning. -Hyp.]_





Sounds like Arya is going on a cool road. She definitely has the heart to be an Assassin.


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## WizarDru (Jan 13, 2004)

Well, I can see how the surviving Starks are essentially gearing up for their 5-year gap.  Each is situated in a position that gives them 'ramp-up' time.

Arya trains to be an assasain.  Bran trains to be a powerful seer.  Rickon becomes an actual character.  Jon becomes fully-vested as leader of the men on the Wall.  Sansa....hmmm.

I suspect that Sansa's growth from porcelain doll to political animal is about to begin.  She's learned some hard lessons at court, and now is under Baelish's control.  But I think that Littlefinger may just see Sansa like a daughter, and may train her to be a the savvy schemer that he is.  Or not.  

And all the while Dany moves further, consolidating her power, while the war continues.  I suspect "Feast for Crows" will have little by way of actual resolution on anyone's character arc directly, but I can easily see how just saying "And then, 5 years later..." could be unsatisfying.  It's much more interesting to see Tyrion find his way to Daenrys (as I expect he will) than it is to hear it happened four years ago, or the like.


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## Nightfall (Jan 14, 2004)

Wow. Thanks Tief. Guess this will teach me to look more closely at such things. Even so this wasn't in any of the books I read so I don't count it as anything..yet. At least not until Crows comes along in print. Whenever that is...


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## Pants (Jan 14, 2004)

I've been purposefully ignoring those sample chapters.  I want to read aFfC with as little previews as possible.  That said, I have read some spoilers...


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