# Lolth's appearance



## Klaus (Jul 13, 2010)

Which is your favorite version of Lolth's "Queen of Spiders" aspect:

Drow/Spider amalgam, like a big drider?






Spider with female head, like the 1e FF and the D&D cartoon?





All spider, like Shelob?





Other?


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## Theo R Cwithin (Jul 13, 2010)

Other.  Isn't another common aspect of hers simply that of a beautiful drow woman, without all the spidery legs, extra eyes, and whatnot?  Something like this:
[sblock]




[/sblock]
Although my favorite might be this weird disturbing one, though I don't know how to classify it:
[sblock]





[/sblock]


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## Klaus (Jul 13, 2010)

the_orc_within said:


> Other.  Isn't another common aspect of hers simply that of a beautiful drow woman, without all the spidery legs, extra eyes, and whatnot?  Something like this:
> [sblock]
> 
> 
> ...



Lolth has two appearances: a drow woman and a "queen of spiders" look. I'm trying to find out the preference regarding the second aspect.


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## MortalPlague (Jul 13, 2010)

Ah.  I voted "other" as well, in favor of her drow queen look.  In particular, the MM3 interior art makes me very happy.  She looks beautiful, terrible, and simply _monstrous_ in that piece of art.

Unfortunately, I can't find it on google.


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 13, 2010)

Damn, human-headed spider Lolth is thick! That's some phat booty.


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## hamishspence (Jul 13, 2010)

*Lolth*

I kinda like this "super-drider" Lolth pic- eight arms _and_ eight legs:

[sblock]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/sblock]


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## Lord Zack (Jul 13, 2010)

In my games her true form is a terrible spider-like obriyth demon (as an obriyth beholding her form can even cause madness). The drow form is merely a disguise that was originally used to seduce Corellon Latherian (a union that resulted in Eilistraee) and gain the worship of the first drow.


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## Theo R Cwithin (Jul 13, 2010)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Lolth has two appearances: a drow woman and a "queen of spiders" look. I'm trying to find out the preference regarding the second aspect.



Gotcha.  Sorry, I'd missed that you were zeroing in on the specific aspect.


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## hamishspence (Jul 13, 2010)

*The MM3 pic- from the WOTC site*






This isn't the whole pic from MM3- but it's a start.


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## Festivus (Jul 13, 2010)

Lolth has been and always shall be an ugly chick's head on a bug.  Drider is too sexy (and too close to aranea for my liking) to be what she is.


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## hamishspence (Jul 13, 2010)

*Drow style Lolth*

I dunno- I like the drow-look pics somewhat.

[sblock]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/sblock]


EDIT:
I can't figure out how to spoiler it- I've tried the normal spoiler tags.

Apparently it's sblock, not spoiler


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## hamishspence (Jul 13, 2010)

Another one- from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits:

[sblock]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/sblock]


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## Klaus (Jul 13, 2010)

hamishspence said:


> Another one- from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits:
> 
> [sblock]
> 
> ...



Oh, Lolth still has her "sexy drow goddess" form, but I'm more interested in knowing what the preference is regarding her *other* form.


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## Voadam (Jul 13, 2010)

Definitely drider.

Despite knowing her image first from the 1e FF I don't like that head on a spider look and always think of her as fully driderized.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 13, 2010)

I believe this poll has been skewed by the fact that the _quality_ of the "human-headed spider" art is so much lower than the "drider" art. 

Lolth is a spider with a human head. Period. Anyone who believes otherwise shall be tossed into the Demonweb Pit, where spiders will feat upon the juices of their souls for a thousand years.


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## Chainsaw (Jul 13, 2010)

Yeah.. I like a more spidery lloth - but I like my demons ugly and terrifying and disgusting, not sexy and gothy.


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## coyote6 (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm not convinced you can have a picture of a spider with a humanoid head and have it not look goofy. Ergo, drider-like.


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## hamishspence (Jul 13, 2010)

There was the Nodwick version of Lolth- more spidery than drider-ish. But yes- it did look a little goofy by comparison.


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## Voadam (Jul 13, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> I believe this poll has been skewed by the fact that the _quality_ of the "human-headed spider" art is so much lower than the "drider" art.




People heads on bugs just don't look cool in general, original 1e FF Lolth, the Fly, etc.

Taurics are generally much cooler images (drider, lamia, marilith, etc.)

I'm sure having more of a female body in the image influences preferences a bunch.



> Lolth is a spider with a human head. Period. Anyone who believes otherwise shall be tossed into the Demonweb Pit, where spiders will feat upon the juices of their souls for a thousand years.




Feat away! 

As a creature of twisted elemental Chaos I have no problem with her not being bound to that image/form/representation.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 13, 2010)

How about spinnerette?

Spinnerette! Wednesday, July 07, 2010


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## hamishspence (Jul 13, 2010)

I've managed to track down one Nodwick pic with Lolth in:

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/gamespyarchive/index.php?date=2007-12-26

though there are others in Dragon. Not sure if they went up online though.


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## Festivus (Jul 13, 2010)

A couple more Lolth pics the way I see her... though I don't quite agree with mammary glands on an arachnid/hybrid

http://www.toplessrobot.com/Lolth.jpg
Lolth by Jeff Russell - Fantasy art galleries at Epilogue.net - Fantasy and Sci-fi at their best


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## hamishspence (Jul 14, 2010)

*Another drider Lolth*

The front cover of MM3:

[sblock]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/sblock]


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## Nifft (Jul 14, 2010)

IMHO the necessary trait set contains:
- Dark skin (elf parts & spider parts both)
- Pointy elf ears
- Spidery bits
- Darkness all over the scene

Which specific bits are spidery is open to artistic interpretation. Drider is fine, mostly spider is fine, mostly elf is probably fine too (would have to see).

Cheers, -- N


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 14, 2010)

Might be an interesting twist to have a spider's head on a woman's body. I've not seen that one before, though it's reminiscent of Egyptian deities.


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## Nifft (Jul 14, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> Might be an interesting twist to have a spider's head on a woman's body. I've not seen that one before, though it's reminiscent of Egyptian deities.



 Ettercaps resemble this, but without the boobs.

Also: Blibdoolpoolp. Niche protection.


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## Alzrius (Jul 14, 2010)

Plane Sailing said:


> How about spinnerette?
> 
> Spinnerette! Wednesday, July 07, 2010




How about Evil Spinnerette?


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## Klaus (Jul 14, 2010)

Uh... guys? Remember Granma!


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## jefgorbach (Jul 14, 2010)

Although the first pic is definitely a good render, driders were considered a punishment for failed worshipers thus it seems ignorant to depict Her as such - therefore I always pictured her natural form to be a shapely six-armed female drow with eight spider eyes set above a pair of fanged mandibles; creating an overall emotional response that seems "wrong" to mortal minds, driving lesser beings insane from the juxtaposition. 

Reports of her "attractive" form are merely individuals who failed to notice the extra features hidden within her robe/hair when she choose to appear a normal mortal.


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## Shemeska (Jul 14, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Lolth is a spider with a human head. Period. Anyone who believes otherwise shall be tossed into the Demonweb Pit, where spiders will feat upon the juices of their souls for a thousand years.




Actually I really truly cannot take the 1e Lolth seriously, because it brings ~ removed link ~ to mind. Anyone who likes human-headed Lolth, that's what you apparently want.

I'll stick with drider-Lolth, because spider-boobs are hawt.


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## Dausuul (Jul 14, 2010)

Shemeska said:


> Actually I really truly cannot take the 1e Lolth seriously, because it brings ~ link removed ~ to mind.




OW OW OW MY EYES.

*pokes eyes out with a fork, then goes stumbling blindly around apartment in search of brain-bleach*

Seriously, put some kind of warning on that link. Not just the standard "You must be 18 to enter" stuff. More along the lines of "You will never want sex again."


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## Chainsaw (Jul 14, 2010)

Festivus said:


> Lolth by Jeff Russell - Fantasy art galleries at Epilogue.net - Fantasy and Sci-fi at their best




Kinda cool. You *can* do an unfunny human head on a spider, but it has to be some sort of distorted, twisted shape that is merely suggestive of a human head - it can't be something you'd see in women's shampoo commercial.


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## Klaus (Jul 14, 2010)

jefgorbach said:


> Although the first pic is definitely a good render, driders were considered a punishment for failed worshipers thus it seems ignorant to depict Her as such - therefore I always pictured her natural form to be a shapely six-armed female drow with eight spider eyes set above a pair of fanged mandibles; creating an overall emotional response that seems "wrong" to mortal minds, driving lesser beings insane from the juxtaposition.
> 
> Reports of her "attractive" form are merely individuals who failed to notice the extra features hidden within her robe/hair when she choose to appear a normal mortal.



The "driders are failures" thing was reversed in 4E, where "driders are blessed".


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## RangerWickett (Jul 14, 2010)

The full MM3 Lolth in humanoid form:








(Lolth clearly has an excellent personal trainer.)

As for her monstrous form, I'm glad the_orc_within posted the Sam Wood sketch of Lolth, because I'd forgotten how much I liked it.


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## Alzrius (Jul 14, 2010)

I always preferred the spider-body-human-head Lolth because that form was supposed to be monstrous, and it was. Whether you accepted the interpretation that she was always a demon who became a goddess, or was originally a goddess who was banished and became a demon, that form is hideous enough that it makes perfect sense as her "natural" form.

Taking that stance, beautiful-drow-woman-Lolth was an illusion or alternate form she liked to adopt; it was how she _wanted_ to appear, even though it wasn't her real appearance.

By contrast, I never liked drider-Lolth because (prior to 4E) driders were the failures among the drow, so it made no sense to picture their goddess having that form.


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## Orius (Jul 14, 2010)

Voadam said:


> People heads on bugs just don't look cool in general, original 1e FF Lolth, the Fly, etc.
> 
> Taurics are generally much cooler images (drider, lamia, marilith, etc.)




Also, it lets her use weapons.  Gives her more options in a fight. 



> I'm sure having more of a female body in the image influences preferences a bunch.




Translation: D&D nerds like Lolth with breasts.



Shemeska said:


> I'll stick with drider-Lolth, because spider-boobs are hawt.




See what I mean? 

Personally, I think I'd like to present her as having a natural drider form, but with the ability to change shape at will into spider and drow forms.  She's a goddess, so that's not unreasonable.


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## Tewligan (Jul 14, 2010)

Shemeska said:


> Actually I really truly cannot take the 1e Lolth seriously, because it brings ~link removed~ to mind.



Dude, _seriously_?


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## Hand of Evil (Jul 14, 2010)

Humanoid drow form but find the drider form cooler, it is just that driders are drow that fail in her eyes and I just don't see her making them more like her, so, why would she be one?  No, she is a hot drow female that stands for everything the drow build their culture around.


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 14, 2010)

Drider-isation as a punishment for failure doesn't make sense to me.

1) Spiders are sacred to Lolth. Becoming more like a spider would be seen as a boon.
2) Lolth is often depicted as part elf/part spider, like a drider.
3) Driders are more powerful than the average drow. In 3e, a drider gets a +4 or +6 bonus to every stat, which is pretty awesome.


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## Dragonbait (Jul 14, 2010)

I always assumed that as a god her form was malleable.


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## Nifft (Jul 14, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> Drider-isation as a punishment for failure doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> 1) Spiders are sacred to Lolth. Becoming more like a spider would be seen as a boon.
> 2) Lolth is often depicted as part elf/part spider, like a drider.
> 3) Driders are more powerful than the average drow. In 3e, a drider gets a +4 or +6 bonus to every stat, which is pretty awesome.



 Yeah, I changed that in my campaign, and then 4e decided to follow.

It's a good feeling to delete a line from one's house rules for that kind of reason.

Cheers, -- N


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## Herschel (Jul 14, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Lolth is a spider with a human head. Period. Anyone who believes otherwise shall be tossed into the Demonweb Pit, where spiders will feat upon the juices of their souls for a thousand years.




Word up!


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## bagger245 (Jul 14, 2010)

Does anybody know who Zzamas is?

Anyway check out the phase spiders in Pathfinder Bestiary..


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## Filcher (Jul 14, 2010)

She showed up in the D&D animated cartoon as spider w/ human head and I remember it being sufficiently terrifying.


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## billd91 (Jul 14, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> Drider-isation as a punishment for failure doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> 1) Spiders are sacred to Lolth. Becoming more like a spider would be seen as a boon.
> 2) Lolth is often depicted as part elf/part spider, like a drider.
> 3) Driders are more powerful than the average drow. In 3e, a drider gets a +4 or +6 bonus to every stat, which is pretty awesome.




Think of it as turning a drow failure into something *useful* for a change. But by doing so, she rips away its former self, which I think your typical egotistical drow would consider a grave punishment.

You have to consider how the drow feel about this transformation as well as how Lolth might feel. Spiders may be sacred, but as servants, allies, or ideals to become? What sort of minions does Lolth really want? The drow or violent and bloodthirsty abominations? Both have their uses, but I think you'll probably get better results, certainly more subtle ones, with the drow than with driders.


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## billd91 (Jul 14, 2010)

hamishspence said:


> The front cover of MM3:
> 
> [sblock]
> 
> ...




Is this guy channelling Bill Willingham?


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## The Shaman (Jul 14, 2010)

'cause she's gotta much better shot at convincing me to give up my precious bodily fluids and my immortal soul than a human-headed spider.


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## bastrak (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned her in Drow form on the front cover by Keith Parkinson of GDQ1-7 Queen of Spiders. Along with the cover for T1-4 the two best adventure covers ever IMO.


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## Peraion Graufalke (Jul 14, 2010)

Yeah, that's a nice one. Especially the mind flayer's pose.


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## Lord Zack (Jul 14, 2010)

The Shaman said:


> 'cause she's gotta much better shot at convincing me to give up my precious bodily fluids and my immortal soul than a human-headed spider.[/quote]
> 
> Sure, that's the point. Doesn't mean that's her true form though...


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## The Shaman (Jul 14, 2010)

Lord Zack said:


> Sure, that's the point. Doesn't mean that's her true form though...



If that's the point, then who cares what her true form is?


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## M.L. Martin (Jul 15, 2010)

Based on what I've seen of her MM3 writeup and other factors, I'd have to go with 'drow-headed spider' for the imagery of defeating her Drow Queen form and seeing it fall away like rags or burst open like a cocoon to reveal her hideous, bloated monstrous spider form . . . which retaining the head of her beautiful disguise.


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## Theo R Cwithin (Jul 15, 2010)

The Shaman said:


> If that's the point, then who cares what her true form is?



Ah, so Llolth's hawt drowess form is like epic level "beer goggles."  Except that the next day is a LOT more awkward.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 15, 2010)

Alzrius said:


> Taking that stance, beautiful-drow-woman-Lolth was an illusion or alternate form she liked to adopt; it was how she _wanted_ to appear, even though it wasn't her real appearance.




This.

The form she chooses is one of the extremely beautiful female drow, probably with lots of spider-themed attire.  If somebody is dumb enough to cast True Seeing around her or she's angry enough to show her true form, you're going to see the drow-headed spider abomination that will feast upon your soul.

So, I voted other on the idea that the form she chooses and will generally be encountered in (except in particularly serious combat when she sees herself in enough danger or is enraged enough to reveal her true form) is a female drow.


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## Lord Zack (Jul 15, 2010)

The Shaman said:


> If that's the point, then who cares what her true form is?




Well she's not always interested in tempting you. Sometimes she just wants to kill you. In that case there's no reason to conceal her more monstrous form.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 15, 2010)

A goddess of lies and treachery who reveals her true form shouldn't still be remotely attractive. The contrast between "beauty" and "beast" is not as effective if the beast is just going to take a few more beers.

But that's the lover of mythology in me. The marketer in me, who is aiming for D&D's teens-and-twenties dorky dudes demo, would want to put as many boobs all over every book as humanly possible. 

"I don't wanna see five pages go by without at least one T&A shot! Breasts should be spilling out of this thing!"

I'm comfortable with WotC's current middle-of-the-road approach. Lolth still looks badass, and it's easy enough to change her to more horrific in the home games.

_Edit_: About the Drider Curse? I'm okay with it being both ways. Driders are cursed forms for failing the Goddess. The Goddess herself has this cursed form. It is the form she was cursed with when she betrayed Corellon and the rest. She doesn't like it. She doesn't want it. She does everything in her power to overcome it. Only those who erode her might enough so that she can't maintain her lies get to witness it. In order to express her contempt for those who fail her, she gives them what _she_ loathes the most: this vile spider form. It wasn't a blessing when she was forced into it, it's not a blessing when she gives it to others. In this concept, the Drow themselves hate warping their bodies in any way (no tatoos, no polymorphs, kill those with birth defects), because their bodies are a sacred form. For Lolth to be robbed of that form -- or to rob another of that form -- is to steal from them their divine essence, the thing that makes life worth living, _being a drow_. Now they are some other hideous monstrosity, and this does not suit them at all.


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## Alzrius (Jul 15, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> The marketer in me, who is aiming for D&D's teens-and-twenties dorky dudes demo, would want to put as many boobs all over every book as humanly possible.
> 
> "I don't wanna see five pages go by without at least one T&A shot! Breasts should be spilling out of this thing!"




Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to drool over subscribe to your newsletter.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 16, 2010)

Dragonbait said:


> I always assumed that as a god her form was malleable.




Certain bits are, anyway.

I prefer the hawt drow chick (the drawing from D3 above is the classic), but for the alternate form I prefer the drider.


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## jaerdaph (Jul 16, 2010)

Other.


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## TarionzCousin (Jul 16, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> Other.



That would make this guy Lolth's consort:


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## Alan Shutko (Jul 16, 2010)

I think H.R. Giger should be commissioned to depict Lolth's true form.  He does the best combination of sexy and deeply monstrous I can think of.


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## Henry (Jul 16, 2010)

Since she's a shapechanger, I say "all of the above." Since she is Chaotic as well as evil, I think it's a cool idea for her to appear in a slightly different form every time she appears, assuming your PCs live long enough to see her more than once. 

BTW, that MM3 version of her is NASTY! That chick could rip a level 30 party in half if they're not careful!

My favorite, if I had to pick, is the classic look - the old Fiend Folio bulbous spider with female head.


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## Klaus (Jul 16, 2010)

Nice way to almost-sidestep the question, Henry. 

Now that Counter Collections Paragon 2, Epic 2 and Heroic 3 are done, soon the time will come to do Paragon 3 and Epic 3. This will include the counter for Lolth. The actual results of the poll won't determine the appearance by themselves. The rationale's being posted are more likely to help me determine Lolth's look.

And I must say, the humanoid-headed spider is winning in that regard.


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## Shemeska (Jul 16, 2010)

Another reason for the drider version is that given her background as one of the elven gods of the Seldarine, when she was stripped of all but the barest shreds of her divinity and exiled into the Abyss, part of her punishment could be seen as that form. It's one thing to say 'you must be an ugly human headed spider thing' but another to allow her to retain a humanoid torso to mock her and perpetually remind her of her original form, her original beauty, and the fact that her past actions caused her to forever remain trapped within a warped version of her original self. 

It's a lot more meaningful IMO than just she's an ugly spider goddess with pretensions of demonhood and a humanoid head.


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## Klaus (Jul 16, 2010)

Shemeska said:


> Another reason for the drider version is that given her background as one of the elven gods of the Seldarine, when she was stripped of all but the barest shreds of her divinity and exiled into the Abyss, part of her punishment could be seen as that form. It's one thing to say 'you must be an ugly human headed spider thing' but another to allow her to retain a humanoid torso to mock her and perpetually remind her of her original form, her original beauty, and the fact that her past actions caused her to forever remain trapped within a warped version of her original self.
> 
> It's a lot more meaningful IMO than just she's an ugly spider goddess with pretensions of demonhood and a humanoid head.



Okay, how is retaining your torso worse than retaining only your head?


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## Theo R Cwithin (Jul 16, 2010)

Klaus said:


> Okay, how is retaining your torso worse than retaining only your head?



Two words: 

Bewbs.


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