# Human + Half-Elf = ?



## MissCalculation (Dec 6, 2004)

Hi there,


I don't know if this question has been posted before. I didn't find any search function, so here my question:

The 10th-level Half-Elf Wizard (male) made the the 7th-level Bard (female) pregnant. What would be the result and on what facts would this depend? 

a) a Quarter-Elf
b) a Human
c) a Half-Elf
d) an Elf
e) something totally different

I'm totally unsure about this and would be glad about some answers or suggestions.

Greets,
MC


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## CRGreathouse (Dec 6, 2004)

The rules don't address the issue.  In my campaign, the result is a quarter-elf, but quarter-elves are mechanically identical to humans.  (I've had a player play one, as well as using quarter-elf NPCs.)


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## Aust Diamondew (Dec 6, 2004)

If what I correctly understand what I learned in high school biology a couple years ago half of the time you're get a half elf and the other half of the time you'd get a human.


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## Thanee (Dec 6, 2004)

Yep, just make it 50% for half-elf or human, seems the most simple without the need for any new races. 

 Bye
 Thanee


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## der_kluge (Dec 6, 2004)

It'd be quarter elf.  HARP has rules for this.  D&D doesn't.

I'd just talk to the player and find out what they hope to gain by being 1/4 elf.  

I think a good build would be the bonus feat, bonus skill points, and a 1 point con deduction and a 1 point int increase.  That would be fairly balanced.


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## Thanee (Dec 6, 2004)

Int? 

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 6, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yep, just make it 50% for half-elf or human, seems the most simple without the need for any new races.




I really can't see the need to take any approach other than this one. Random chance as to whether the child favours the mothers or fathers side.


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## Wolf72 (Dec 6, 2004)

just a human ... maybe with pointy ears.


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## MissCalculation (Dec 6, 2004)

OK. No official rule, that is not good. 

(1) Plain logic (okok, i know it's fantasy):
The Genes of humans and elves can be mixed 
=> half-elves, something between humans and elves 
=> so half-elves have also the ability to mix with humans and elves
=> the result is something between human and half-elve (or elve / half-elve )

(2) "Roll the dice". "fifty-fifty-chance"

it has great impact on the campaign, which rule we choose.

In-Play-Problem:
The Half-Elf-wizard (PC) is the father of the bard's child, but soon after she got pregnant, she fell in love with another human (NPC). If we apply the first rule, it would be clear who is the father, if we apply the second rule, the wizard would have a fifty-fifty-chance


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## Sejs (Dec 6, 2004)

Personally, I'd say the offspring would be human, but with some resembalance to the half-elf parent - so a slender human with somewhat delicate features, basically.


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## Volsung (Dec 6, 2004)

I only have my 3e PHB handy, but it seems to imply that half-elves are only produced in pairings where one of the indiviuals is an elf or both parents are some part elf.

AD&D is very specific on the issue:
"1)Anyone with both elven and human ancestors is eith a human or an elf (elves have only elven ancestors)
2)If there are more human ancestors than elven, the person is human; if ther are an equal number or more elves the person is half-even"

Ultimately this is a DM call, unless the language regarding this issue was changed in the 3.5 PHB (and I don't think it was in any significant way).


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## ARandomGod (Dec 6, 2004)

According to genetics it could range from anywhere between full human to half elf. Depending on which genes from the half elven parent gets passed down. Quarter elf would be the most likely circumstance. Of course, there's no rule for quarter elf... so you'd have to decide which genotype took precedence in this case. I'd rule whichever way makes the GM the happiest, as all events could technically happen. If you like to roll the dice, I'd say roll a D4. 
1=human.
2= 1/4 elf with human dominant, treat as full human.
3= 1/4 elf with elf dominant, treat as 1/2 elf
4= 1/2 elf.

Depending on the overall dominance of the genes in question, of course. This is a fairly reasonable spread with the assumtion that all the genes are roughly equal in dominance.


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## dcollins (Dec 6, 2004)

Agreeing with Volsun et. al., it seems like ths should be rules-wise a human, perhaps with some elvish visual flavoring.

Genetically the 50/50 chance should only be applied to one single specific genetic trait. The overall mix of thousands of traits is statistically certain to come out in the middle, i.e., a character that is 75%, effectively human.


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## AuraSeer (Dec 6, 2004)

I use the old 2E rule. Anyone with more human ancestors than elvish ones is a human. If he has more elvish ancestors, or equal numbers, then he's a half-elf. Elves have only elvish ancestors.

If the human is pure blooded, and the half-elf is exactly one-half elvish, then their child is human. If their ancestry is more complicated, the child is probably a half-elf.


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## Felix (Dec 6, 2004)

[Mendelian Genetics]

A half-elf inherits one elf gamete (E) and one human gamete (H). These genes exhibit incomplete domininance, so when both are present in a heterozygote (EH), the result is a half-elf, with traits from both parents.

When you combine a Half-elf (EH) with a Human (HH), the results follow the table below:

.... H .... H
:     :       :
E.. EH ... EH
:     :       :
H.. HH ... HH

So there is a 50% chance that the offspring will be a heterozygous half-elf, and a 50% chance the child will be a homozygous human.

What's really funky is that there's a 25% chance that the child of a half-elf and a half-orc will be fully human. 

[/Mendelian Genetics]


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## MissCalculation (Dec 6, 2004)

It's right, but the mendelian genetic theory would apply to all attributes of the offspring, hair color, ear-size, int, char, darkvision or not,  etc., so that i would have to roll the 50-50-chance for everything. 

And you're right, the chance to get a human if you cross a half-orc and an half elf is 25%. But if you are exact, this propability applies to every characteristic of the child, so the overall propability to get a full human is (1/4) * [number of attributes]. 

However, I hoped there'd be a simple rule out there for this, but it seems, that we will have to freestyle a bit


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## AuraSeer (Dec 6, 2004)

MissCalculation said:
			
		

> It's right, but the mendelian genetic theory would apply to all attributes of the offspring, hair color, ear-size, int, char, darkvision or not,  etc., so that i would have to roll the 50-50-chance for everything.



And that's only if each individual trait is controlled by exactly one gene, and each gene is on a separate chromosome! In RL humans, a simple trait like hair coloring is influenced by multiple genes and they interact in complex ways. Even if the science of genetics works in your D&D world, these calculations are probably not worth your time.



> However, I hoped there'd be a simple rule out there for this, but it seems, that we will have to freestyle a bit



The closest thing I've ever seen to a rule is the one I posted about above. It has the advantage of being very simple in standard cases: a human plus a half-elf produces a human, and all other combinations produce half-elves. The only time you need to spend any brainpower on it is when a half-elf breeds with a human of mixed ancestry, and it doesn't sound like that's happening in your case.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 6, 2004)

I'm gonna agree with AuraSeer on this one.  If I had to rule on it...

- If your ancestry is at least 50% (but less than 100%) elven, from a rules standpoint, you're a half-elf.
- If your ancestry is less than 50% elven, from a rules standpoint, you're human.  From a flavor standpoint, you could certainly show some of your elven ancestry (slightly pointed ears, slender build, eye color, etc.), but I wouldn't let this have any "crunch impact."

So, in MissCalculation's example, the bard would have a baby that's "statistically" human, even if she does have her dad's ears.


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## Felix (Dec 6, 2004)

> And that's only if each individual trait is controlled by exactly one gene, and each gene is on a separate chromosome!



Ah, but you discount the ubergene or over-gene! It controls the rest of the genes, which, if homozygous, you have fully normal traits for that species. If heterozygous, you have the half-breeds. And the averages of hair color, height, eyes, etc. have been worked out in the PHB in the Half-breed entries.



> ...I hoped there'd be a simple rule out there for this...




50-50 sounds pretty simple to me.


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## dcollins (Dec 6, 2004)

Felix said:
			
		

> A half-elf inherits one elf gamete (E) and one human gamete (H). These genes exhibit incomplete domininance...




Is "human-ness" a single gene? Note, it's the sum total of all our genes.


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## ARandomGod (Dec 6, 2004)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> And that's only if each individual trait is controlled by exactly one gene, and each gene is on a separate chromosome! In RL humans, a simple trait like hair coloring is influenced by multiple genes and they interact in complex ways. Even if the science of genetics works in your D&D world, these calculations are probably not worth your time.




True that it's relatively complex. But the statistics can be boiled down to a pretty simple 25% of the time the child will be statistically human, with no real noticable difference.

25% of the time the child will be statistically human, but with some exotic traits.

25% of the time the child will be statistically half elf, but with fewer exotic traits than the common half elf.

And about 25 % of the time the genes will be not only statistically half elven, with a fairly standard half elven build.


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## Bryin (Dec 6, 2004)

Give it +4 to sleep spells and spell-like abilities and a weaker version of low-light vision, bam you got a quarter elf


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## Wolf72 (Dec 6, 2004)

Felix said:
			
		

> What's really funky is that there's a 25% chance that the child of a half-elf and a half-orc will be fully human.




that's actually a kinda cool character background  ....


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## AuraSeer (Dec 6, 2004)

ARandomGod said:
			
		

> True that it's relatively complex. But the statistics can be boiled down to a pretty simple 25% of the time the child will be statistically human, with no real noticable difference.
> 
> 25% of the time the child will be statistically human, but with some exotic traits.[snip]



If we're still talking about RL genetics, I think you're making unwarranted assumptions. We don't have enough information to determine the odds of a "statistically human" child.

Take an example involving three genes, the ones whose elvish versions grant pointy ears, low-light vision, and _sleep_ immunity. Assume they're all carried on separate chromosomes, and a given child has an even chance of ending up with the human or elvish version. You'll end up with only one-eighth of the children having all human traits, one-eighth being statistically "half-elven", and the remaining 75% having some other combination of traits.Change the assumptions-- put multiple genes on one chromosome, or make multiple genes control one trait-- and the odds change wildly. And it only gets more complex if you consider the sum of all human and half-elvish traits together.


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## Sado (Dec 6, 2004)

Make half-elves unable to reproduce, like that loveable cross between a horse and donkey-the Mule.


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## AuraSeer (Dec 7, 2004)

Sado said:
			
		

> Make half-elves unable to reproduce, like that loveable cross between a horse and donkey-the Mule.



Hey, that reminds me. Doesn't Eberron say that its half-elves breed true? I wonder if they mention half-elf crossbreeding too...


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## Felix (Dec 7, 2004)

EDIT:

This post was me being silly. Heh heh.


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## AuraSeer (Dec 7, 2004)

Felix said:
			
		

> Because the game mechanics provide 3 discrete races, the easiest thing to do is to assume a "Human" gene and an "Elf" gene, and that whenever they are both present, you have a half elf, with all that entails game mechanics wise.



Did you read my post before quoting? Go read the very first line again-- the one where I qualified that *ARandomGod* and I were discussing RL genetics. In RL genetics, it doesn't make sense that there would be a single "elf" gene. (It does make sense in D&D pseudo-genetics, though, hence the qualifier.)



> The guy is looking for a simple answer.



Yes, that was my original point, thanks for restating it.

As I said in my second post in this thread, statistical genetic calculations are very complicated and not worth the DM's time. Later posts along that line are simply side discussions about just how complicated it would be. Some of us like playing around with gratuitous math; if you don't, you needn't read those posts.


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## ARandomGod (Dec 7, 2004)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> As I said in my second post in this thread, statistical genetic calculations are very complicated and not worth the DM's time. Later posts along that line are simply side discussions about just how complicated it would be. Some of us like playing around with gratuitous math; if you don't, you needn't read those posts.





....

Yes. It really all boils down to how complicated a GM wants to get. Basically it's best to do it the first way I stated: The genetics return whatever type child the GM decides it does. Of course, it's usually best if the GM attempts to stay within the realm of reason. A half dragon out of this would require some justification... ~_^


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## Felix (Dec 7, 2004)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> Did you read my post before quoting?



What, are you kidding? Absolutely not! I passed completely over your assumptions to more directly assualt your then-baseless claims and make you look so embarassingly victimized by my razor sharp commentary that you would send me all your money, and any phone numbers of attractive women you might know as tribute that it might not happen again! HA!

And so I look like a git. 

Sorry about that!


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## Harmon (Dec 7, 2004)

Couple years back I made a character for my wife, the character was small, thin and had almost Elven features.  She was raised by a man that said he was her father (he was human) but seemed some how lacking in confidence to that fact.

She became an adventurer taking up her mother's bow, she eventually found her mom, turned to stone many years before- a Half Elven woman, the daughter of two half Elves herself.

I gave no benifits to her for this linage, thou I did (secretly) allow her to have better visual range at night under the open stars then the other human PCs.

I think a better question might be- what of the Half Elf full blooded Elf combination, what would a 7/8ths child have?


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## Wolf72 (Dec 7, 2004)

according to previous editions Elf+Half Elf still = Half-Elf


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## Vorith (Dec 7, 2004)

now, you get to roll the 50-50 to see whether its a boy or a girl


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## Joker (Dec 7, 2004)

Just give her triplets.  Now you can have a human, an elf and a half-elf.


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## Felix (Dec 7, 2004)

Joker said:
			
		

> Just give her triplets. Now you can have a human, an elf and a half-elf.



That sounds like the beginning of a joke.


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## the Jester (Dec 7, 2004)

IMC, there's a large area that used to be a 'half-elf' nation, but these half-elves were really mixed blood between elves and humans, averaging about half.  I always ruled that 3/4 elves were treated mechanically like elves, and 1/4 elves are treated mechanically like humans.


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## Sejs (Dec 8, 2004)

> What's really funky is that there's a 25% chance that the child of a half-elf and a half-orc will be fully human.
> ----
> that's actually a kinda cool character background ....




Heh, and you name him Ogrek


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## Scharlata (Dec 8, 2004)

MissCalculation said:
			
		

> [...] I'm totally unsure about this and would be glad about some answers or suggestions. [...]




Hi!

I ever since truly believed that half-elves were sterile.    

Kind regards und schöne Grüße aus Köln


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## ARandomGod (Dec 8, 2004)

Vorith said:
			
		

> now, you get to roll the 50-50 to see whether its a boy or a girl




Nope, 60/40, there are statistically more girls born than boys.

Wait, these are elves... 40/60 then. We want more female elves!


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## Andor (Dec 8, 2004)

It depends how strong you want to make elven 'blood'. Fer example in LoTR Elrond half elven was actually only 1/4 elven. He married an elf and his kids seem to be full on elves. 

There is that line of nobles from the south who decended from the 3rd pairing of humans and elves whose elven blood was still evident during the war of the rings. For that matter Aragorn (Elronds second cousin 48 times removed) was pretty spiffy but it's unclear if that's due to his elven heritage or the lingering blessings of numenor. 

Of course genetics gives the answers everyone else has given, but this is fanatsy. In a world that contains griffens and hippogriffs there isn't any need to assume genetics work the way they do here.  

-Andor


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## FireLance (Dec 8, 2004)

Well, this is from the Dragonshards article Half-elves of Khorvaire (in the Eberron Campaign Setting), off the WotC website:


> *Half-Elven Blood*
> 
> The genetics of the Khoravar (half-elves) are unusual. Many alchemists and sages are amazed that it is possible for humans and elves to interbreed at all. When a human and half-elf conceive, the resulting child has an equal chance to have the race of either parent. In all other cases - human and elf, half-elf and half-elf, and elf and half-elf - the result is always the same: a half-elf child. The Aereni (elves) claim that this is not a matter of physiology or genetics, but of magic; the blood of the elves holds the light of ancient Xen'drik, and once diluted it can never be regained. Whether this is true is a matter for each DM to decide.



Sounds like a good enough system to me.


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## taliesin15 (Dec 12, 2004)

*Numenoreans? (re: human+half-elf=?)*

This thread came back to me this weekend watching Fellowship of the Ring on TNT. I thought it might be of some relevance for folks wondering what to do in their campaigns to reconsider Tolkien. In the scene where Elrond urges Isildur to cast the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom I realized: both are half-elves. 

Some half-elves essentially lived like Elves (Elrond was one of the few half-elves I know of who passed into the West). Elven blood in men, I believe, was represented in the literature as "the blood of Numenor". There's all that stuff about the blood of Numenor being diminished in men--which meant men like Aragorn, who had old elvish blood, but much diluted, had a life span of something like 300-400 years, whereas more pure blood Numenorean kings I think lived more like 1000 years.


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## Lord Morte (Dec 12, 2004)

taliesin15 said:
			
		

> Some half-elves essentially lived like Elves (Elrond was one of the few half-elves I know of who passed into the West). Elven blood in men, I believe, was represented in the literature as "the blood of Numenor". There's all that stuff about the blood of Numenor being diminished in men--which meant men like Aragorn, who had old elvish blood, but much diluted, had a life span of something like 300-400 years, whereas more pure blood Numenorean kings I think lived more like 1000 years.




IIRC half-elves are given a choice: live as men or as elves. Elrond chose elf, his brother chose man, and Arwen also chose man and hence gets to stay in Middle-Earth. The half-elves who choose elf aren't really that different from normal elves, exhibit A: Elrond.

I agree that the child of a half-elf and a human would have a 50% chance between being functional human or functional half-elven, but I do feel that the functional human should get something nifty from the bargain to represent the few elven traits buried amongst all that mundane human-ness, such as with the Numenorean kings. I'd say the easiest way to represent this would be a feat, such as the Orc Blooded one in Dragon 315.


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## Adam Radenheimer (Jul 14, 2017)

roll a d4 1 is an elf, 2 and 3 are half elves, and 4 is a human


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## steeldragons (Jul 15, 2017)

Just Human.


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