# This PDF cover has to be seen...



## jaerdaph (Apr 29, 2010)

...to be believed.

The good news is Potion Maker's Guide is 22 pages marked down to $7.50 from $15 bucks. What a bargain!



Edit: I've attached the image of the original cover.


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## DaveMage (Apr 29, 2010)




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## Gundark (Apr 29, 2010)

IMHO no art is better than bad art......


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## jaerdaph (Apr 29, 2010)

The other product in their catalog is pretty special too:


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## pawsplay (Apr 29, 2010)

Power Word: Stun


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## DaveMage (Apr 29, 2010)

In fairness, if I were to make the cover, it would look worse, but....


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## Crothian (Apr 29, 2010)

It's a tough economy, they have to cut costs were they can.


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 29, 2010)

Crothian said:


> It's a tough economy, they have to cut costs were they can.




Well, yeah, but there's "Cutting costs" and then there's "Damaging your brand."

There's free/dirt cheap clip art they could've used that's of higher quality. This doesn't just look cheap, it looks like they literally don't care. It's very unprofessional.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2010)

Very unprofessional...

That bodes ill for what lies behind.


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## Fifth Element (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm not sure what's worse, the quality of the artwork, or the fact that that ugly face has notion whatsoever to do with potions.

Sorry, lost my brain a bit there, I know which one is worse.

But the price is probably the worst part.

_Edit: No, the worst part is that one the tags the publisher used is "cool"._


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## pawsplay (Apr 29, 2010)

I wonder if the publishers are posters here.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2010)

If so, I hope they take this as constructive criticism.


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## Steel_Wind (Apr 29, 2010)

I know I'm about to ruffle some Old Skool feathers here - but I started in 1978 too - so... yeah.






Bad art on the cover can still sell a million copies+. Not saying, just sayin.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Apr 29, 2010)

Maybe the publisher is under 13-years-old and drew it themselves? It's kind of par for the course in 13-year-old fantasy fan art. Decent even, if so.

But if that art is the drawing of an adult . . . then . . .  I'm sorry. They should have skimped on art and gone all text.


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## Gundark (Apr 29, 2010)

Steel_Wind said:


> I know I'm about to ruffle some Old Skool feathers here - but I started in 1978 too - so... yeah.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




World of difference....world of difference. The 1st ed book might have been bad art, but it's still worlds better.


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## FireLance (Apr 29, 2010)

Since I'm not a great artist and I don't know any decent artists who are willing to work for close to free, I don't use any interior art and just try to make sure that the cover doesn't look too bad. This usually means fairly simple designs with uniform colors (no shading, etc.).


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## Mark (Apr 29, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Well, yeah, but there's "Cutting costs" and then there's "Damaging your brand."
> 
> There's free/dirt cheap clip art they could've used that's of higher quality. This doesn't just look cheap, it looks like they literally don't care. It's very unprofessional.





IME, when someone puts something of that quality on display, it is not that they do not care, it is because they are not aware of what others might think, even if those others would likely represent and overwhelming majority and that majority opinion would be unfavorable.  It is far simpler, and less expensive, to craft a cover that has no artwork or some nebulous graphic or texture.  One might even surmise that the person who created that cover art spent quite a bit of time and cares a great deal.  I think I would stop short of calling them unprofessional, though it is truly not to my taste nor likely to the taste of many.


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## pawsplay (Apr 29, 2010)

Gundark said:


> World of difference....world of difference. The 1st ed book might have been bad art, but it's still worlds better.




Plus, the troll looks pretty awesome.


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## CleverNickName (Apr 29, 2010)

"It took me like three hours to finish the shading on the upper lip."


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## Oryan77 (Apr 29, 2010)

That PDF cover looks almost exactly like the portrait my brother drew for his girlfriend when he was about 22  (I'm not joking). He meant for it to be romantic and I didn't have the heart to tell him not to give it to her. It was either hurt my bro's feelings, or his girlfriends feelings....I think I made the right choice


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## Oryan77 (Apr 29, 2010)

CleverNickName said:


> "It took me like three hours to finish the shading on the upper lip."




Holy crap! My brother wasn't the only one!


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## WanderingMonster (Apr 29, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> The other product in their catalog is pretty special too:




I would like to point out that after reading the preview pages of this book, that it is completely awesome in the most unexpected ways.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2010)

Mark said:


> One might even surmise that the person who created that cover art spent quite a bit of time and cares a great deal.  I think I would stop short of calling them unprofessional, though it is truly not to my taste nor likely to the taste of many.




Among other things, I'm an artist myself.  I also have a Marketing Masters.

When I say "unprofessional" here, I mean in the sense of 1) a true amateur and 2) not up to professional quality levels.

I can see that you're absolutely right- the artist in question spent time on their creations and did care about their creations.  But you also have to realize that if you are selling something, presentation matters.  Even if you have no choice but DIY, you still have to make good decisions.

Both of those illustrations were done from 100% straight on- there was no angling of the head that would suggest the artist had the requisite skill to render a higher quality illustration.  There is an element of similarity in those renderings to the works of artists like Patrick Nagel  or Dennis Mukai, but the poses are static.  Compare that to the original MM, and you see figures from straight-on, full side profile, and 3/4ths angles and others besides. 

Given a choice between what was actually chosen, doing a simple text cover or doing some fancy fontwork, as a non-Pro, the latter 2 options are far more likely to be well received than your personal artwork.


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## Aegir (Apr 29, 2010)

"So, um... are you saying you love me, or that you think I look like Sloth from Goonies?"


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## Stormonu (Apr 29, 2010)

Umm....wow.  I think the sample is creepier than the cover.  It's obvious this person believes he's got a lot of cool ideas he wants to get out, but... really, I think this person needs to step back and get some experienced help - both a graphic artist's input and someone to edit his text.

Honestly... "This guide is for every person that runs a _roll playing _game..." is your opening sentence?


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## MerricB (Apr 29, 2010)

My eyes! My poor, bleeding eyes!


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## MortalPlague (Apr 29, 2010)

That preview was _really_ something special.  The background for his campaign world is just... wow.


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## Soel (Apr 29, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> The other product in their catalog is pretty special too:




You can buy a print of this one for $75

Really.

There's also a picture on there entitled "Hottie."


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## SiderisAnon (Apr 29, 2010)

A quick web search turns up his Facebook, MySpace, and Art Wanted info.  The author is listed as 43 and also sells custom artwork.  He's doing a whole line of images.  Some of his work is better.  The drawing labeled as "Yulia" is actually decent.  Not good enough for the cover on a $15 product, but better than what he used.

I would have to say that the poster who suggested that the artist just doesn't realize how other people will see his work is the correct one.  This guy is clearly very proud of his work.  Based on the prices he lists, he clearly thinks it's valuable work.

I wonder if there's a polite way to contact him and suggest he get an editor and someone to preview his art?


I do have to ask:  Doesn't RPGNow look at the products being offered for sale?  I thought you had to go through an approval process first?


Some links.  Note that some of his images are not safe for work.
_Removed as requested._


Edit:  Be careful about where you go from links on his sites.  His Twitter account looks to have been hacked, based on the number of ads for garbage services that are listed as his tweets.  (Or he's selling questionable business credit services under the same company as the gaming books.)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2010)

Another piece of his, for $25:

Snake Dragon in Pen by Gerald Bocian | ArtWanted.com

Face + Palm = _______________

Words are failing me right now.

Upon further reflection...I did some research as to who "Aria Giovanni" and "Alex Del Monacco" are... and thereby figured out why the pictures on the covers of his PDFs look like they do: He's basing them on (presumably) copyrighted images of softcore/hardcore porn stars and glamour models.  I tried and tried and TRIED to find the particular images he was working from- _the sacrifices I go through for you guys!_-  but to no avail.  (Part of the reason I was looking for the images was to see how "transformative" his interpretations are- if they're too close to the originals, he could be sued..by the models, by the photographers or even by anyone who may have bought the rights to the images.)

And that one of his friend Yulia?  That SO looks like a photo that has gone through some filters.  As, now, do the ones based on Aria.  ESPECIALLY in comparison to his illustration of another RW person, Tila Nguyen , aka Tila Tequila.  That's the only way I can explain the vast stylistic differences between the pencil or pen illustrations and the others.

I'm SERIOUSLY questioning his actual skills now.  Some of the stuff he's selling for $20 I wouldn't have sold when I was just starting out and doing PC illustrations for other gamers.


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## Nikosandros (Apr 29, 2010)

Deleted by poster.


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## evileeyore (Apr 29, 2010)

That art is ... _special_.


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## Wepwawet (Apr 29, 2010)

SiderisAnon said:


> Some links.  Note that some of his images are not safe for work.



What? Are you serious?
If my boss caught me with those images on my screen, he'd just go "Aw that's cute, so your son is expressing puberty through drawings?"


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## Steel_Wind (Apr 29, 2010)

Guys,

What began as a smile and lampoon of a cover on RPGNow has taken on an almost sadistic schoolyard bent.

You've tracked the other works of the man down, identified him by name and described who he is.

There is now enough information in this thread that, given that ENWorld forums is thoroughly spidered by Google, it is an absolute certainty that at some point, he's going to google his own name or book or art - and see this thread.

And he's going to be pretty hurt by it.

Yes, some skin toughening is expected as you grow older -- and yes -- some further flinty heartedness is required when you put your own products for sale on the Interwebs.

I get all that. Sure, I agree.

But he's still a human being, still a gamer, and if he reads this thread? Well...

How would you feel if it were you?

I think to be ridiculed like this -- and make no mistake, that is *precisely* what this piling on thread has become -- would be a pretty devastating kick in the nuts. We're going to hurt this guy - and I don't think that something I'd be very proud of.

I got to think that a website full of geeks and nerds must have had some moments in our childhood when we were each  -- for some moment at least -- the brunt of the joke by our peers.

So. Now that we've had our fun - how about we not do this? 

And if you linked to his stuff in the above messages or Myspace or whatever track backs you pointed to - how about you just delete what you linked to  - and maybe he won't end up finding this. Cause this just isn't going to help anybody.


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## jaerdaph (Apr 29, 2010)

In all fairness to the publisher, I will admit that artistically I certainly couldn't do better, and as a potential customer, 
he already lost me at *• Copy/paste disabled*...


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## Dykstrav (Apr 29, 2010)

Steel_Wind, I have to commending you for trying to be cool and actually empathizing with the artist as a fellow human being. I do have a certain degree of disagreement with you, however. I must also point out the futility of shielding people who engage in creative work from criticism.

When I write, I want proofreaders who are, well... Critical. I want them to point out every tiny flaw that I may or may not have considered, rake the work over the coals, and make me realize where the work has come up short. There is a big difference between saying that a given piece of work is horrible and making a personal attack. "That which would give off light must endure burning," after all. I have no problem with the criticism, as long as it's of the artwork and not a high-school style personal attack.

On that topic, incidentally, I feel that it's a legitimate criticism of his work to lambaste him for trying to sell this stuff. People who want to sell a product should certainly be held accountable for the quality of that product. I won't presume to speak to the artist's motivations or personality since I don't know him personally, but I can damn sure recognize something that's worth paying for and something that is not.

One final issue... Artists in all media and across all spectra of talent level deal with criticism. _Constantly_. One of the marks of a true professional is to recognize legitimate criticism and when it's so much noise. That's not even to mention all the absolute crap that gets put out in the entertainment industry because of contractual obligations. People who would endeavor to make a living in a creative field know how to deal with criticism... Or they go get a day job somewhere and give up on the whole thing.

Just my two cents, for what it's worth.


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## Elton Robb (Apr 29, 2010)

Thank God for DAZ Studio, Poser, and all the other 3D Art Apps.  Right everyone?


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## jaerdaph (Apr 29, 2010)

I just want to echo what Steel Wind said - I got a good laugh out of the cover, but I don't want to go too far and hurt anyone's feelings. 

I know that sounds hypocritical coming from the OP, but I have a thicker skin than a lot of people and tend to "call 'em as I see 'em", but I sometimes forget that isn't always the case for some of my fellow gamers.


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## Nebulous (Apr 29, 2010)

Gundark said:


> World of difference....world of difference. The 1st ed book might have been bad art, but it's still worlds better.




I think the cover of the 1e monster manual is pure awesome, even all these years later. 4e should take that picture and update it with modern artists!


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## Wicht (Apr 29, 2010)

Nebulous said:


> I think the cover of the 1e monster manual is pure awesome, even all these years later. 4e should take that picture and update it with modern artists!




The 1e MM cover is excellent for what it was.  There wasn't a lotta money in the industry back then for artists but that image, while appearing a bit simple at first, actually manages to convey quite a bit.  Its a piece of art that has grown on me over time.


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## Elton Robb (Apr 29, 2010)

Dykstrav said:


> Steel_Wind, I have to commending you for trying to be cool and actually empathizing with the artist as a fellow human being. I do have a certain degree of disagreement with you, however. I must also point out the futility of shielding people who engage in creative work from criticism.
> 
> When I write, I want proofreaders who are, well... Critical. I want them to point out every tiny flaw that I may or may not have considered, rake the work over the coals, and make me realize where the work has come up short. There is a big difference between saying that a given piece of work is horrible and making a personal attack. "That which would give off light must endure burning," after all. I have no problem with the criticism, as long as it's of the artwork and not a high-school style personal attack.
> 
> ...





I think it would be much more cruel if Copyright were abolished.  Then the Audience votes with their dollars on a product.  If the product is bad, it's value never increases.  But if its a great product, then its value often shoots through the roof over the years.

Which is one of the bad things about copyright being abolished.  One of the best things about it being abolished is the competition that Wizards of the Coast would automatically get.  Think about the derivative works that would be published. And what sorts of Awesome we would get out of such derivative works.  The audience would be the final judge on a piece of work.  If it's good, we support the goodness.  If it's bad, its value would never rise a peep. 

That's why I'm setting up the audience, the gamer community, to be my distributor.  I call it a trial by fire, everyone.


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## doctorhook (Apr 29, 2010)

I gotta say, this guy should illustrate FATAL. I mean it.


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## renau1g (Apr 29, 2010)

To be fair the quality of the art-work about matches the quality of the sample work. I read through just the first two paragraphs and there's already a few mistakes "roll-playing" & "Psci-Blades" are two that jumped out at me. Oh..and "allot" + the capitalizing of "Cool Stuff" bothered me. It's not necessarily the artist that is the problem. I don't enjoy it myself, nor would I spend any real world cash on it, but that's the way I feel with a lot of art out there. As a published product I would've certainly hoped it to have gone through even one review by someone before publishing. I mean I'm not even an editor, I'm just a guy who reads a fair amount of books, and I cringed after reading the first 2 paragraphs.


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## JediSoth (Apr 29, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> I gotta say, this guy should illustrate FATAL. I mean it.




FIE! FIE on you for suggesting such a vile thing. There are things in FATAL that should NEVER be illustrated.

DOOM. DOOOOOOOOM!


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## Silverblade The Ench (Apr 29, 2010)

Elton Rob,
Actrually Poser work can be EXTREMELY good, don't knock it, depends on the artist's skill 
Nor is it "cheap, easy" as some folk seem to think. 
The differnce between the _greats _with poser and _others_, is same as _greats _and _others _with ANY medium.
Some outstanding art ha sbeen made with Poser

I'm "good" but not great, one of mine...
(I use Vue, and import Poser characters, and do postwork in Photoshop)







the creator of the pdf should have checked on DAZ3D, Renderosity or such for artists!
but each to his own


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## Elton Robb (Apr 29, 2010)

Exactly, Silverblade! 

I was defending Poser, Vue, and other 3D art apps.  Thanks for clarifying my point for me!

Isn't debate wonderful?


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## the Jester (Apr 29, 2010)

Steel_Wind said:


> Guys,
> 
> What began as a smile and lampoon of a cover on RPGNow has taken on an almost sadistic schoolyard bent.
> 
> ...




Sorry, dude, but anyone that puts out products for sale should expect reviews. If they're crap products, they should expect crap reviews. If they are horribly-illustrated, horribly-edited and someone (or a bunch of someones) calls it out as such, the best thing the author can do is _listen and learn so that he does it better next time._

Have you ever been part of a performance that got a bad review? A friend of mine was Tybalt in Romeo and Juliet and a review in the local paper called him "as ferocious as a kitten". 

AFAIK, he still hasn't cried about it, and it's been many years now.

If you publish a product, you really need someone to edit it and give you the hard "This sucks" first, or some shmucks on a website will do it for you later.

Now, I'm not eagerly trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but if someone publishes stuff like this, they either need a wakeup call or they ignore feedback anyhow.


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## Mark (Apr 29, 2010)

Some fruit hangs too low.  I suspect there is some as yet unknown reason why these have been published as is, perhaps due to age or capacity, that would make any barrelfish-shooting feel shameful in retrospect.  Under standard circumstances, I doubt we'd see such things.


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## Steel_Wind (Apr 29, 2010)

the Jester said:


> Sorry, dude, but anyone that puts out products for sale should expect reviews.




Perhaps so. But I think there that where posters start otherwise tracking down the guy, his myspace and artwanted postings --  and otherwise go beyond the product described or "reviewed", all of which is done in an effort to hold the guy's work up as an example for *ridicule* by the group...

That's where it passes from fair comment to _piling on_. That's where I see somone getting collectively kicked when he's down. 

That's when that nagging part of me, doubtless the product of a happy childhood reared by a compassionate mother,  says "this is now going way too far" and we are now having FUN *at someone else's emotional expense.*

You're right. Simple human decency and compassion isn't required on the Internet. It's completely optional.

Want to be a dick? Go ahead. Feel perfectly entitled.

But that doesn't mean you can be just willfully blind and pretend that the names you read on this screen don't have real people attached to them somewhere -- with real feelings.


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## Piratecat (Apr 29, 2010)

Relax, guys. Trying to make someone feel guilty because you have a different benchmark than they do isn't a great tactic.

No personal attacks on the artist or author when discussing this product, please. That hasn't changed! But reviewing published work is entirely reasonable, appropriate and expected. If someone publishes some work that is below industry standards while being more expensive than normal, they should expect that to be called out.


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## Steel_Wind (Apr 29, 2010)

" Trying to make someone feel guilty because you have a  different benchmark than you do isn't a great tactic."

I'm really not sure what you mean. I invite you to clarify it.

Edit: Ah you have. Quite so.  

My objection wasn't to the reviews. It was to the Myspace and other art postings business getting dragged into it. It seemed to make the thread a_ personal_ one.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Apr 29, 2010)

Elton Robb said:


> Exactly, Silverblade!
> 
> I was defending Poser, Vue, and other 3D art apps.  Thanks for clarifying my point for me!
> 
> Isn't debate wonderful?




Ah!  
No worries bud, sorry, I  wasn't sure which side of that debate ye were on, as yer original post may have been in "/sarcasm mode", you know? 

hell I cna't draw a decent stick man, lol, so I use 3D as I'm good at building things and having ideas for scenes, I just can't paint.

Pirate Cat,
well, I couldn't do much better, fi  at all, if I tried drawing 
I know this, but I also know folk can do MUCH better, hence the pdf creator should have, IMHO, aksed aorund for a better peice of artwork for their book.

the book itself maybe awesome, but that is nto good quality artwork, which will hurt thier sales.

I'd quite happily give a list of artists/sites that maybe good to ask for art for use 

this is a semi-nuide so, maybe wrong to post the link? but it shows some of the odd but fantastic work that can be done in 3D. reminds me very much of the Lady of Pain!

NTSFW!
~* Unicornst *~ (Protecter of Unicorns) by calum5 Poser Fantasy


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## the Jester (Apr 29, 2010)

Steel_Wind said:


> Perhaps so. But I think there that where posters start otherwise tracking down the guy, his myspace and artwanted postings --  and otherwise go beyond the product described or "reviewed", all of which is done in an effort to hold the guy's work up as an example for *ridicule* by the group...
> 
> That's where it passes from fair comment to _piling on_. That's where I see somone getting collectively kicked when he's down.




True, when we hold up things he's done, er, not professionally (shut up, all of you), that's different. OTOH he's also put them up online, which is about as public of a space as you can achieve. I'm not saying it's _right_ to dogpile him, but I do think anyone that publishes art online, no matter how good their art, has to expect it. (Again, not that it's right.)

But there's another issue that we all seem to have overlooked here, regarding the quality of this fellow's work. Does anyone buy it? If so, _it's good enough for someone._ And that's just fine. If this guy makes a living with his art, then, despite any mockery, he _is_ a professional artist.


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## doctorhook (Apr 29, 2010)

JediSoth said:


> FIE! FIE on you for suggesting such a vile thing. There are things in FATAL that should NEVER be illustrated.
> 
> DOOM. DOOOOOOOOM!



Haha Well, upon perusal of his other drawings, it just seemed like his artistic style would be a good match for the unspeakable horrors described in that despicable tome by "The Mad Arab" Abdul Alhazr-, I mean Byron Hall. 

Incidentally, the piece of artwork that this thread is referring  to seems to be a part of a larger *nude* piece called "Devils Bride  with Wings" on this guy's art page. Perhaps not ironically, the artist begins  his description of the piece with "Devils Bride is more like  Frankenstein's Bride...". You don't say, buddy.


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## olshanski (Apr 29, 2010)

Obviously the artist does better stuff than I do.  
I wouldn't knock it though... I like the Stanislaw Lem doodles in "Cyberiad":


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## Stormonu (Apr 29, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> In all fairness to the publisher, I will admit that artistically I certainly couldn't do better, and as a potential customer,
> he already lost me at *• Copy/paste disabled*...




Yeah, that was a red flag for me too.

I have no desire to make personal attacks against the author; I can see the enthusiasm in his writing - he clearly believes he has something valuable to share with the world, and I can see the kernels of some good ideas in the sample.  But his works need a lot of polishing to bring it up to a professional standard.

I feel like I should write a review of his work in the hopes of getting him to improve it, but I don't want to lay out the money - or ask for a free sample and just end up criticizing the work.


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## Piratecat (Apr 29, 2010)

olshanski said:


> Obviously the artist does better stuff than I do.
> I wouldn't knock it though... I like the Stanislaw Lem doodles in "Cyberiad":



Anyone saying anything bad about Stanislaw Lem or the Cyberiad gets banninnated. You've been warned! Warned, I tell you. WARNED!

Ahem.


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## renau1g (Apr 29, 2010)

*Opens mouth...then sees P-cats post and promptly shuts it again*

Yes...I also like those drawings...


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 29, 2010)

Wow, when I originally saw this, I honestly assumed it was the guy's kid doing the art or something.

I've got to imagine that the company isn't doing so well, and the guy's trying to make a living at doing this. Why else the high price? Every small time third party publisher I've seen says not to expect to make a living off of it, though.


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## ExploderWizard (Apr 29, 2010)

Heh. I plan on submitting a self-illustrated module to Dragonsfoot soon. It will be free but I better make sure it's up to snuff!


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## Storminator (Apr 29, 2010)

I've seen that second picture before. It's an ad or something. I can't place it tho.

PS


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## doctorhook (Apr 29, 2010)

Storminator said:


> I've seen that second picture before. It's an ad or something. I can't place it tho.
> 
> PS



I think it's an edited version of a photo of some model, actually, in which case it wouldn't be impossible that you've seen it before.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2010)

olshanski said:


> Obviously the artist does better stuff than I do.
> I wouldn't knock it though... I like the Stanislaw Lem doodles in "Cyberiad":




That art Lem did there isn't mere doodles- that is meticulous and precise work.  Oddball, perhaps, but requiring a lot of work and at least a modicum of practice.


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## GuJiaXian (Apr 29, 2010)

Back to the topic on hand, I scanned through the sample pages for the alchemy book. All of his reagents are lifted right from The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, right down to weights and effects. Isn't that a pretty blatant copyright violation, considering as he's charging money for it?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2010)

Like I was saying about the illustrations, it would depend upon how much transformation of the original he did.  In a sense, its the first step in the analysis.

If he's using portions of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion without alteration, that's a potential violation.  If he's using their terminology but changes the results & effects, odds are that it isn't a violation.  If both he and the original work were shown to be logically derived from another source- say, someone's historical work on alchemy- there might not be a violation of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion...but there might be one of that historical text (though its unlikely, since there is the transformation from historical work to RPG mechanics).

And, for the record, it doesn't matter to the Courts if he's selling the stuff.


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## jaerdaph (Apr 30, 2010)

GuJiaXian said:


> Back to the topic on hand, I scanned through the sample pages for the alchemy book. All of his reagents are lifted right from The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, right down to weights and effects. Isn't that a pretty blatant copyright violation, considering as he's charging money for it?




If that's true (and I'm not familiar with Elder Scrolls), it really needs to be brought to the attention of RPGNow/Drivethru....


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## jaerdaph (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm not a fan of Poser et al. art, especially fantasy art (although that drow that Silverblade did above is really quite good - I guess it's less about the tool than it is the tool in the hands of a skilled master  )  - but I do think Poser art lends itself quite well to paper minis. Perhaps its the smaller size that gives them a sense of realism that I can't appreciate at full size (which generally screams "computer generated"/"too videogamey" to me). 

And even though I don't particularly like covers done with Poser art, I've always liked this cover:


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## Mark (Apr 30, 2010)

Is there actually some term that is unique to Oblivion or are they real world terms that were merely gathered?  Are the definitions (effects) lifted word for word or are they just the general effect that real world substances were claimed to have had in alchemical theory?


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## Merkuri (Apr 30, 2010)

Mark said:


> Is there actually some term that is unique to Oblivion or are they real world terms that were merely gathered?  Are the definitions (effects) lifted word for word or are they just the general effect that real world substances were claimed to have had in alchemical theory?




Oh, no, these are lifted straight from Oblivion.  There's no doubt about it.

Arrowroot Plant, restores dexterity, damages luck, fortifies strength... 

Glow dust from will-o-the-wisps?

Crab meat?

Edit: If I can figure out how to make this game take screenshots I can post some up that show the in-game ingredients almost exactly match his items.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 30, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> That art Lem did there isn't mere doodles- that is meticulous and precise work.  Oddball, perhaps, but requiring a lot of work and at least a modicum of practice.



Indeed, that style of art isn't necessarily easy, and has some tricky shading techniques, IIRC.


----------



## Merkuri (Apr 30, 2010)

Here we go:














From the PDF in question:

Alkanet Flower Restore Intelligence 1 0.1
Resist Poison
Light
Damage Constitution

Arrowroot Plant Inherent Traits Value Weight
Restore Dexterity 2 0.1
Damage Luck
Fortify Strength
Encumbrance +25#

Blackberry Inherent Traits Value Weight
Restore Constitution 1 0.1
Resist Shock
Fortify Endurance
Restore Magic

Edit: By the way, I used the "contact us" field on RPGNow to notify them of this.


----------



## Fifth Element (Apr 30, 2010)

Well spotted. And a new worst thing about it?


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2010)

Yeah...the more I see, the less I am likely to shed a tear that people are all over him.


----------



## tenkar (Apr 30, 2010)

I saw this as the "Featured Product" on RPG now earlier this week.  Not sure which one it was, as I wound up having to look at  the page for both products.

I felt like I was rubbernecking at a serious vehicle accident on the other side of a highway.

It's not that its bad.  There are lots of products that get published via PDF that are bad.  It's not the horrible editing.  It's not the derailed-train of thought writing.  Nor even the better then I can draw but still pretty awful art.  All that for free or a buck would make this negligible in the grand scheme of RPG products.

It's the outrageous prices for these... terminally flawed products... that he is asking.  $7.50 for the 22 page "Potions" book, $15 for the Gamemaster's book?  

I didn't have to DL a sample:  This from the author's own blurb on the Game Master's Fantasy Guide gave it all away:



> The Game Masters Fantasy Guide is a compilation of almost everything a Game master or a Player might wish to add to their game system.  I have found in my many years of gaming that there is some real cool things in our RPG's but they are unexplained like Alchemy for instance just gives the vaguest of descriptions and has no rules for it till now.  This Guide will tell you exactly how to make potions amongst other things that you haven't even imagined.  That is only one of the things in this guide it is cram packed full of new things for every adventurer and GM!




If I had purchased this RPGNow would have had their first ever request for a refund from me.

I'm knocking the products.  I don't know the author from a hill of beans.  He certainly loves gaming, so he's probably a great guy at the game table.  These products are NOT going to make him any fans among anyone that purchases them.  

Not even addressing the "borrowing" of tables from other sources.


----------



## Silverblade The Ench (Apr 30, 2010)

Jaerdaph,
Chers!  though I got lucky with the drow 
slowly getting better, portraiture is VERY hard ot make good, IMHO

skill, innate or earned is moreimportant than the tools
I';ve seen awesome art made with Microsoft's bog -standard "Paint" that comes with Windows!


----------



## doctorhook (Apr 30, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> ...The poses are static.  Compare that to the original MM, and you see figures from straight-on, full side profile, and 3/4ths angles and others besides.



Maybe I can use this to voice a complaint about an otherwise very talented D&D artist: Wayne England.

His artwork is generally pretty awesome, but the faces he draws? Blech. Almost every single one of them is 100% straight on, and IMHO, it ruins his artwork for me. Perfectly static, perfectly symmetrical faces seem ugly to me, compared to ones that have even the slightest bit of dynamic to them.


----------



## jdrakeh (Apr 30, 2010)

Storminator said:


> I've seen that second picture before. It's an ad or something. I can't place it tho.
> 
> PS




Yeah, that was my first thought, too. It looked familiar.


----------



## odhen (Apr 30, 2010)

Merkuri said:


> Oh, no, these are lifted straight from Oblivion.  There's no doubt about it.
> 
> Arrowroot Plant, restores dexterity, damages luck, fortifies strength...
> 
> ...




Well,



			
				preview PDF: said:
			
		

> We have all played Wizards in our RPG, but to the best of my knowledge there have never been any set rules for making potions.  With maybe the exception of the *Arcanum and Morrowind*, I have not seen anyone take up the task of making rules for Potion Creation. So I was inspired to make some rules using both game systems as a basis.  Well that and one of my players wanted to be a Potions Master.  So we sat down and created some rules for making potions.




He admits right there he's pulling it from Morrowind (Elder Scrolls III). And apparently Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura as well.

Not justifying the theft in any way, just pointing out that it he basically admits he's lifted this work.


----------



## Wormwood (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, this "humor" thread sure has evolved into something . . . darkly fascinating.


----------



## SiderisAnon (Apr 30, 2010)

Wormwood said:


> Well, this "humor" thread sure has evolved into something . . . darkly fascinating.




If we're lucky, at least one aspiring self-publisher will take this thread to heart and have someone who hasn't read any piece of the work read it before it's published so that they can provide an honest opinion.  (Just make sure you get someone to proofread who will give an actual opinion.  Someone I knew had several us proofread a manuscript he was submitting and I was the only one in the group who took a red pen to it and provided a full accounting.  Probably because I do documents for a living.)



So, a stated opinion of the gaming work as presented for sale:

Honestly, in the case of these two products, there is nothing about them so far that would NOT be a reason not to buy.  The price point is too high, the cover is awful, the description is poor, and the sample text supplied is so bad I literally could not finish reading the first page.  I can't imagine trying to write a detailed review of this product because I'd never get through reading the whole thing.  If one of my clients gave me the provided sample pages to edit for them, I would have to return it for a full rewrite of the material.

Putting aside some of the implied "dog-piling" on the author/artist, this product is just not something that should be professionally published.  The quality is just too low.  At best, it's an example of what not to do when you self publish.  In truth, I think that simply carrying it on their website does RPGNow a discredit.

If the original author actually reads this, as was suggested by a previous poster, I genuinely hope that he takes this information to heart and either learns to look at this work being published by his company from an objective view or gets someone to edit for him who can do this.  He may actually have some good ideas, but most people will never see them because they are presented so poorly.


----------



## Wepwawet (Apr 30, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> Well spotted. And a new worst thing about it?



Hummm. No, not really.


----------



## Primal (Apr 30, 2010)

odhen said:


> Well,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The best part is that he claims nobody has done this before. I can instantly think of at least two systems with extensive alchemy/potion-making rules that utilize a similar list of herbal components (and which things they affect): Ars Magica and WFRP 2E (fan-made rules, I think, for the latter, but very good nonetheless).


----------



## Fifth Element (Apr 30, 2010)

Primal said:


> The best part is that he claims nobody has done this before.



Especially since he lifted the material from another game, and apparently admits it. Not a tabletop RPG to be sure, but still.


----------



## Old_school_overlord (Apr 30, 2010)

The second one bears an uncanny resemblance to KoDT's april fools Russian Gamer Girls picture.

Alas, my goolge-fu is too weak to find it.


----------



## Merkuri (Apr 30, 2010)

odhen said:


> He admits right there he's pulling it from Morrowind (Elder Scrolls III). And apparently Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura as well.




There's a difference between being inspired by something and taking material from it.  This guy apparently doesn't realize that difference (or doesn't care).



			
				SiderisAnon said:
			
		

> (XP Comment) Very good of you to do the research and point it out to RPGNow. They don't want trouble because of a product.



I'm actually in the middle of playing Oblivion and have amassed a metric ton of alchemy components in all of my houses and I knew I had at least one save near one of those houses, plus my character is good enough at alchemy to know all of the properties of each component, so it didn't take me long at all to confirm this.  It took me more time to figure out how to let Oblivion take screenshots than it did to get into that position to take them.


----------



## Mark (Apr 30, 2010)

Merkuri said:


> There's a difference between being inspired by something and taking material from it.  This guy apparently doesn't realize that difference (or doesn't care).





True.  Since you've done the legwork, you should send the email to RPGNow pointing out the problem and allow them to deal with it from this point forward (if you haven't already done so).  Well done.


----------



## Rykion (Apr 30, 2010)

Storminator said:


> I've seen that second picture before. It's an ad or something. I can't place it tho.
> 
> PS



It looks a lot like Jeri Ryan, 7 of 9 from Star Trek:Voyager, to me.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2010)

> The second one bears an uncanny resemblance to KoDT's april fools Russian Gamer Girls picture.



and


> It looks a lot like Jeri Ryan, 7 of 9 from Star Trek:Voyager, to me.



As I pointed out upthread, he's taking those images from particular softcore/hardcore pornstars' & "glamour" models' photos and manipulating them in some kind of art program.

He actually _tells you their identities _on his site.  I just haven't been able to find which _particular _nudie photos he worked from.

And I'm pretty sure his "Soulless Gypsy" was inspired by a painting by Frans Hals.  Nothing wrong with that, though- its not anywhere approaching a copy of the original, and all artists (regardless of genre or medium) find inspiration in the works of other artists.

I'm just concerned about the other stuff...


----------



## Rykion (Apr 30, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> As I pointed out upthread, he's taking those images from particular softcore/hardcore pornstars' & "glamour" models' photos and manipulating them in some kind of art program.



I read your post.  Even though he evidently started with a picture of Aria Giovanni, it reminded me of Jeri Ryan.  I'd seen that picture when browsing RPGNow before I ever saw this thread, and that's who I immediately thought of.

Edit: Although I can understand why you might think I missed your post.  I was just stating who I thought it looked like that others might also think of.


----------



## Silverblade The Ench (Apr 30, 2010)

By the way, a good way to learn/make digital paintings, is to use Poser (or DAZ studio) as it was originally meant to be used: as a maquette.

You pose a 3D model person as desired, render
import to any paint app, even MS Paint
then paint over the render, the figure gives you the basic pose and shape 
and lighting if done right, Ambient Occlusion passes are best for that kind of stuff with shading

having the shape, you can concentrate on colouring/shading, painting in clothing etc 


this is a digital work made by a guy named Martin Murphy from about 13 years ago, never forget his stuff, amazing! 
just shows you that it's the skill, not the tools, as the apps we have now are a heck of a lot better tha what he had, and yet he still did amazing work!

NTSFW
Autumn Flirts with Winter

folk shouldn't be scared of trying art, it's fun


----------



## Merkuri (May 1, 2010)

Mark said:


> True.  Since you've done the legwork, you should send the email to RPGNow pointing out the problem and allow them to deal with it from this point forward (if you haven't already done so).  Well done.




Already done. 

I got a reply from them saying they were forwarding the message to their publisher relations department.  Haven't heard anything else beyond that.  I wouldn't be surprised if they never informed me about what's going to happen to the work, though.


----------



## jaerdaph (May 1, 2010)

*Wtf?*

Check out his latest offering - Pscion Blades & Aura Blades. 12 pages for $10 bucks - reduced from $20! 

I'm not sure this falls under the humor tag anymore...


----------



## jaerdaph (May 1, 2010)

He's also swapped out the original Potion cover for this:


----------



## ppaladin123 (May 1, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> He's also swapped out the original Potion cover for this:





Well, at least it appears to have something to do with potions/alchemy...that or it's a depiction of an elderly drug dealer.


----------



## jdrakeh (May 1, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> Check out his latest offering - Pscion Blades & Aura Blades. 12 pages for $10 bucks - reduced from $20!




And with copy/paste functionality disabled!


----------



## doctorhook (May 1, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> Check out his latest offering - Pscion Blades & Aura Blades. 12 pages for $10 bucks - reduced from $20!
> 
> I'm not sure this falls under the humor tag anymore...



That's because there's no horror tag.

Also, does the word "psci-blade" make anyone else imagine some kind of fish-sword?


----------



## SiderisAnon (May 1, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> Check out his latest offering - Pscion Blades & Aura Blades. 12 pages for $10 bucks - reduced from $20!
> 
> I'm not sure this falls under the humor tag anymore...




The description of that product was painful to read.  The author actually used "lol" in a sentence. 

This company's products have got me thinking about why we're all so interested in them, in a painful way.  I think it's a combination of two factors:  

The biggest is that most or all of us have seen and/or purchased some bad PDF products, especially during the height of PDF publishing.  These products seem to be trying to wrap every possible bad PDF publisher trick into one package.  We can't stop talking about it because these products are just such a perfect storm.

The other is that morbid quirk of human psychology that keeps you from looking away from a train wreck.


If anyone does buy any of these products, I hope they post a review.  I'd be fascinated to see what the full content was like.  Unfortunately, the closest thing I could find to a review with a Google search was a reviewer who has it in their "to do" pile because they were sent a free copy.


----------



## Dykstrav (May 1, 2010)

SiderisAnon said:


> The other is that morbid quirk of human psychology that keeps you from looking away from a train wreck.




This is basically why everyone is so interested. It's got an element of MST3K appeal, the impulse of many people is to laugh when exposed to things like this--and then wonder if it could possibly be genuine, if someone could actually be _this_ untalented and blatantly derivative.

When you learn that this is the real deal, this person is actually trying to get people to pay him money for things like this... Well, it's like Cthulhu, sort of. You lose sanity by even being exposed to it, but now you've seen things that cannot be unseen, so you must now behold the foetid depths of whatever lies beyond to have any hope of making any sense of it and maintaining your grip on your sanity.


----------



## jaerdaph (May 1, 2010)

SiderisAnon said:


> The description of that product was painful to read.  The author actually used "lol" in a sentence.
> 
> This company's products have got me thinking about why we're all so interested in them, in a painful way.  I think it's a combination of two factors:
> 
> The biggest is that most or all of us have seen and/or purchased some bad PDF products, especially during the height of PDF publishing.  These products seem to be trying to wrap every possible bad PDF publisher trick into one package.  We can't stop talking about it because these products are just such a perfect storm.




I buy almost everything in PDF. Most of my purchases are made as an educated consumer, many are purchased based on my past experience with the publisher's products and the publisher's reputation for quality. I've also taken a few chances and blindly purchased a few PDFs. Of that last category, I've probably only been stuck with two or three bad apples. But in that last blind category, my gut feeling was always based on *presentation *- from cover to ad copy to free previews. 



SiderisAnon said:


> The other is that morbid quirk of human psychology that keeps you from looking away from a train wreck.




Guilty as charged.


----------



## Pseudonym (May 1, 2010)

ppaladin123 said:


> Well, at least it appears to have something to do with potions/alchemy...that or it's a depiction of an elderly drug dealer.




After the defeat of Sauron, Gandalf really let himself go.


----------



## JustKim (May 1, 2010)

Merkuri said:


> There's a difference between being inspired by something and taking material from it.  This guy apparently doesn't realize that difference (or doesn't care).



The Legacy Powers on pages 5+ of the Game Master's Fantasy Guide are out of TSR's Red Steel setting. I was one of the handful of people who played Red Steel and recognized it immediately.

I checked my Red Steel Campaign book, and it seems to be copied almost word for word. Even the campaign-distinctive detriments are included. I remember WotC offered a free PDF of the setting on their earlier edition PDFs page, so it may have been copied and pasted directly from there.

I imagine that takes up about 20 pages of the PDF.


----------



## jdrakeh (May 1, 2010)

JustKim said:


> The Legacy Powers on pages 5+ of the Game Master's Fantasy Guide are out of TSR's Red Steel setting. I was one of the handful of people who played Red Steel and recognized it immediately.




Please report this to RPGNow (if you haven't already)! I would report it myself if I owned the _Game Master's Fantasy Guide_, but I'm not going to purchase a potentially infringing work just to report it.


----------



## nedjer (May 1, 2010)

Crothian said:


> It's a tough economy, they have to cut costs were they can.




Perhaps a further cut to slick typography would have been a good option.


----------



## Merkuri (May 2, 2010)

JustKim said:


> The Legacy Powers on pages 5+ of the Game Master's Fantasy Guide are out of TSR's Red Steel setting. I was one of the handful of people who played Red Steel and recognized it immediately.




Yes, please report that.  I used the "contact us" button on the bottom of the page.  You'll be doing RPGNow a favor, as they can get in trouble for selling copyright-infringing material (I think).

If two different people report two different products from this guy they might decide to pull down all of his work.  Judging by what I've seen so far that would be a good thing.


----------



## tenkar (May 2, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> Check out his latest offering - Pscion Blades & Aura Blades. 12 pages for $10 bucks - reduced from $20!
> 
> I'm not sure this falls under the humor tag anymore...




No free preview?  Damn.  heh

Wonder what his next product is going to be, page and price-wise?  Since he's lifting these pretty liberally from other products, the least he could do is offer a better page to cost ratio


----------



## Lord Xtheth (May 2, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Another piece of his, for $25:
> 
> Snake Dragon in Pen by Gerald Bocian | ArtWanted.com
> 
> ...




First you draw an "S" then you draw a slightly smaller "s", put a big muscle arm, and TROGDOR!


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (May 2, 2010)

JustKim said:


> The Legacy Powers on pages 5+ of the Game Master's Fantasy Guide are out of TSR's Red Steel setting. I was one of the handful of people who played Red Steel and recognized it immediately.
> 
> I checked my Red Steel Campaign book, and it seems to be copied almost word for word. Even the campaign-distinctive detriments are included. I remember WotC offered a free PDF of the setting on their earlier edition PDFs page, so it may have been copied and pasted directly from there.



Ooh, that's bad. BTW, the free .pdfs are still available under the Savage Coast name. You can at least still find them on the official Mystara fan site. Haven't checked WotC's downloads sections in ages. . .

I was very close to having some sympathy with all of critical piling on towards his art. But this amount of blatant plagiarism is just . . . unforgivable.


----------



## Edgewood (May 2, 2010)

The art may be bad, but he's got an entire thread of posters talking about him. I did most of the artwork for Sword's Edge Publishing and never received a peep, so the artist is doing something right I guess.


----------



## pawsplay (May 2, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> He's also swapped out the original Potion cover for this:




What I don't understand is why he doesn't even bother to put the product name on the cover. It's sort of traditional.


----------



## Theo R Cwithin (May 2, 2010)

The pics of the blue-haired demon chick and the strung-out wizard in a raincoat keep replacing each other seemingly at random whenever I reload the posts in this thread (or look at the product on different pages on the sales site).  What's up with that?

It's _seriously_ freaky.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (May 2, 2010)

_*suspects the_orc_within purchased something...*unusual*...from the scurrilous-looking bearded old man, and unwisely ingested it...*_


----------



## Kafen (May 2, 2010)

Edgewood said:


> The art may be bad, but he's got an entire thread of posters talking about him. I did most of the artwork for Sword's Edge Publishing and never received a peep, so the artist is doing something right I guess.




It's attention. People are scoping out his site. For artists, it's a good thing. Generally speaking, the man has passion and motivation - actual direction and skill aside - which means he is likely to progress and grow from this experience. Hopefully,  he gets some good advice and help at this point.

Anywho, I ask about my own work with the d20 Magazine Rack as I think about making PDFs. Korak's Reach, The Dwarven Stronghold of Siginzar, and the 18 Diseases PDF from the project represent some of my serious efforts at writing. The Korak's Reach PDF is on RPGnow for a short time. Then, it gets the boot when you have to start paying to host PDFs at that time. The second and third projects fail to make it past the D20 Magazine Rack. The sheer amount of work that goes into the three projects makes me cringe to this day when I consider the fact that nobody outside of Scott Stokes and Ghostwind likely knows they even exist.

I wonder how many of us have old stuff laying around that we regret working on. I find myself asking...

Q. Would I use my own content?
Q. Was it worth the time?
Q. What was I smoking?

Frankly, I know that some of my work in that section is lacking, but I have no problem with the effort in hindsight. It gives me stuff like this to reuse.



> The Flats is the new plaza and trade center for the Poor Man’s Way. It is the first market center in a generation that the Poor Man’s Way can call its own, since the Vineyard Wall separates the older plaza of the Old Section from the active section of the Poor Man’s Way. A series of kiosks and carts change the face of the plaza each dawn as merchants and buyers change overnight. The few permanent businesses include: Rafe’s Bed and Roast, The Red Inn, and the wide grain silos where merchants hold their grain and ore for sale at market.
> 
> GM Secret: Tiser and Grimse, a pair of rogues, patrol the Flats for victims of their trade each morning. A party of wealthy adventurers is sure to attract the attention of Tiser and Grimse if the party displays a large amount of wealth in the plaza.
> 
> ...




*shrug* I guess it's a hindsight thing. I wonder if the author and artist is going to look back on this say... "I made my mistake, but I made the effort." ...which is kind of how I look back on my own work. I suppose the hindsight bit makes me cautious about throwing too many stones when it comes to mistakes.


----------



## SiderisAnon (May 2, 2010)

ppaladin123 said:


> Well, at least it appears to have something to do with potions/alchemy...that or it's a depiction of an elderly drug dealer.




That new cover image has been driving me nuts because I KNOW I've seen it somewhere before, like in a gaming book.  (But with better quality.)  I just can't find it.

Considering that some of his other work is derivative, I'm not sure I should be surprised I recognize that dwarf image.  I just wish I could place it so my mind would let it go.


----------



## Wicht (May 2, 2010)

SiderisAnon said:


> That new cover image has been driving me nuts because I KNOW I've seen it somewhere before, like in a gaming book.  (But with better quality.)  I just can't find it.
> 
> Considering that some of his other work is derivative, I'm not sure I should be surprised I recognize that dwarf image.  I just wish I could place it so my mind would let it go.




I think I've seen it somewhere too.  But not in a gaming book.  One of the discworld books maybe or an illustrated Sword in the Stone?  Its going to nag me now that you mentioned that.


----------



## Theo R Cwithin (May 2, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> _*suspects the_orc_within purchased something...*unusual*...from the scurrilous-looking bearded old man, and unwisely ingested it...*_





Well, the first one *was* free, now that I think about it...


----------



## Kafen (May 2, 2010)

Wicht said:


> I think I've seen it somewhere too.  But not in a gaming book.  One of the discworld books maybe or an illustrated Sword in the Stone?  Its going to nag me now that you mentioned that.




I am going over my steam punk collection looking for it. Nothing as of yet...


----------



## Wicht (May 2, 2010)

Kafen said:


> I am going over my steam punk collection looking for it. Nothing as of yet...




Upon further reflection it reminds me of some of the art used by Mongoose.


----------



## Jasperak (May 2, 2010)

CleverNickName said:


>




You studied under Picasso? I'm impressed.


----------



## Fifth Element (May 3, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> What I don't understand is why he doesn't even bother to put the product name on the cover. It's sort of traditional.



Perhaps he doesn't know how?

Given that we know know he's a plagiarizer, I feel no remorse in piling on any more.


----------



## odhen (May 3, 2010)

SiderisAnon said:


> That new cover image has been driving me nuts because I KNOW I've seen it somewhere before, like in a gaming book.  (But with better quality.)  I just can't find it.
> 
> Considering that some of his other work is derivative, I'm not sure I should be surprised I recognize that dwarf image.  I just wish I could place it so my mind would let it go.




It'd be nice to figure out where it's from, since he obviously didn't draw it himself judging from his other works.


----------



## darjr (May 3, 2010)

I keep thinking old school GDW.

Maybe internal art from the fighting fantasy books?


----------



## TheAuldGrump (May 3, 2010)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Elton Rob,
> Actrually Poser work can be EXTREMELY good, don't knock it, depends on the artist's skill
> Nor is it "cheap, easy" as some folk seem to think.
> The differnce between the _greats _with poser and _others_, is same as _greats _and _others _with ANY medium.
> ...




Very nice. I can draw better than the victim topic of this thread, but I honestly fail at Daz 3d.  (No time - or patience - to practice.)

I most certainly agree that good Poser/Daz art is much better than bad hand drawn art. (While I am better at drawing than the artist concerned I would lump my own efforts under 'bad'.) I picked up a goodly amount of Daz material at a recent sale, and do not in any way regret it. I just wish I was better at _using_ it. (They have some very nice Steampunk material, for example.) I would not mind seeing more used by the amateur RPG industry.

For real embarrassment - I once used Oblivion to create a scene for an illustration that I wanted to use in game. (An orc with a balloon....) Yes, I _am_ that bad with Daz.

The Auld Grump





*EDIT* Just in case anyone thought that I was joking about using Oblivion....


----------



## FireLance (May 3, 2010)

darjr said:


> I keep thinking old school GDW.
> 
> Maybe internal art from the fighting fantasy books?



Unlikely. From what I recall of the Fighting Fantasy series (and I was quite a fan when I was younger), the internal art was of a better quality than that.


----------



## Lancelot (May 3, 2010)

FireLance said:


> Unlikely. From what I recall of the Fighting Fantasy series (and I was quite a fan when I was younger), the internal art was of a better quality than that.




Agreed. I have every book in the series, and it's not from Fighting Fantasy - nor any of it's major competitors (Lone Wolf, BloodSword, FateMaster, etc). 

Fighting Fantasy (e.g. Warlock of Firetop Mountain) art was actually quite spectacular in some cases, given the original price of the books. There have been a few new releases over the last couple years (Howl of the Werewolf, Bloodbones, etc) which have improved even further. Artwork is at least 50% of the reason why I still buy 'em...


----------



## darjr (May 3, 2010)

Not the quality of it, just something about the pose and accouterments that strikes a cord.


----------



## FireLance (May 3, 2010)

darjr said:


> Not the quality of it, just something about the pose and accouterments that strikes a cord.



In that case, it kind of reminds me of a picture of Nicodemus the wizard (picture in article reproduced below).


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## SiderisAnon (May 3, 2010)

darjr said:


> Not the quality of it, just something about the pose and accouterments that strikes a cord.




I know I've seen that coat somewhere before.  I'm more sure of that than the pose itself.  I was thinking Shadowrun, but while I could flip through a few books, most of them are in storage right now so I just don't know.


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## Mikaze (May 3, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> He's also swapped out the original Potion cover for this:




?!?!

He looks like that fishstick brand mascot.


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## JediSoth (May 3, 2010)

Mikaze said:


> ?!?!
> 
> He looks like that fishstick brand mascot.




That's it! The Gorton's Fisherman!


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## Scribble (May 3, 2010)

JediSoth said:


> That's it! The Gorton's Fisherman!




Well... You CAN trust the Gorton's fisherman~!


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## jaerdaph (May 3, 2010)

The Gorton's Fisherman of Gloucester, or Obed Marsh of Innsmouth?


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## jaerdaph (May 3, 2010)

FYI: This publisher's products are no longer for sale at RPGNow.


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## renau1g (May 3, 2010)

You are a bringer of doom jaerdaph, remind me never to mess with a guy who bets on D&D in smoke-filled rooms


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## jaerdaph (May 3, 2010)

*I am the Harbinger of Doom*

I know it was ultimately the blatant plagiarism and IP theft that brought about this turn of events, but a part of me feels a little guilty... 

Anyhow, I hope the guy learns from his mistakes - misguided as his business endeavor was, it's clear he loves the hobby.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 3, 2010)

If it helps, think of the people whose IP he misappropriated- they didn't get the payment they were due.  And they clearly love what _they_ did just as much if not more so than he loved what he was doing.

Who knows?  If he had paid the proper royalties on the photos of the porn stars, they might have been able to afford some clothes!


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## doctorhook (May 4, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> FYI: This publisher's products are no longer for sale at RPGNow.



Does this mean we're no longer allowed to mock him? [/cruelty]


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## Fifth Element (May 4, 2010)

Anyone who posted in the thread before the products were taken down should get grandfathered in.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 4, 2010)

As should anyone who copies and pastes someone else's post from earlier in this thread, makes a couple of changes, and presents it as their own opinions...


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## Steel_Wind (May 4, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> If it helps, think of the people whose IP he misappropriated- they didn't get the payment they were due.  And they clearly love what _they_ did just as much if not more so than he loved what he was doing.
> 
> Who knows?  If he had paid the proper royalties on the photos of the porn stars, they might have been able to afford some clothes!




100% of nothing is nothing.  Do you seriously think he sold even a SINGLE copy of this?

My bet? : not even one.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 4, 2010)

Steel_Wind said:


> 100% of nothing is nothing.  Do you seriously think he sold even a SINGLE copy of this?
> 
> My bet? : not even one.




_His _sales don't matter.  The sale or licensing fee that his use would normally generate is the key.

If I want to use Lockheed-Martin's inventions for something, I have to pay for the privilege...it doesn't matter if I sell a single unit.


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## Fifth Element (May 4, 2010)

Steel_Wind said:


> 100% of nothing is nothing.  Do you seriously think he sold even a SINGLE copy of this?
> 
> My bet? : not even one.



Daring, out-on-a-limb prediction by Steel_Wind!

Although it is possible someone bought one out of morbid curiosity.


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## Steel_Wind (May 4, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> _His _sales don't matter.  The sale or licensing fee that his use would normally generate is the key.
> 
> If I want to use Lockheed-Martin's inventions for something, I have to pay for the privilege...it doesn't matter if I sell a single unit.




Really? Gee. Thanks for the education. However, I must confess, that I am well aware of the ins and out of the legal aspects of intellectual property, licensing fees and copyright litigation. I happen to do it for a living. Do you?

What you say might be the proper measure of damages and the relief granted, though it is not _necessarily _the proper measure of damages. You are free to make that argument to a judge; and he or she (or a jury) is free to deny your claim, too.  

So why don't we await for that result from a court - instead of having the trial here, ok?

My point was far less bookish and far more practical: the man has not taken a single cent out of anyone's pocket -- to suggest otherwise is a crock. *And you know it, too.*

I'm not defending his ations - but the great and exaggerated affront you seem to have taken on behalf of a party who isn't, in fact, you and has not, in fact, suffered any real damages at all, seems very misplaced.

All by way of saying, you sure you are not sitting on top of an Oliphaunt? Because it seems to me that whatever is you are riding, it's an awfully high climb down from up there.

Nevetherless, perhaps you should climb down off that high horse. 

When it comes to gamers and technical violations of the _Copyright Act_, I'll wait for the sinless to cast the first stone, thanks. 

My guess is that it will be a very long wait, indeed.

*Admin here. This post is a good example of someone being insulting and condescending because they took a post personally that wasn't meant that way. It's also a good reminder that no one but you knows what your profession is, and it's a lot friendlier to expand (or disagree) with what someone tells you than it is to be rude to them.

Please don't respond to this, everyone. Steel Wind, please avoid posts like this in the future; better to walk away from the keyboard for a bit if you're angry at someone. 

~ PCat*


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## doctorhook (May 4, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> Daring, out-on-a-limb prediction by Steel_Wind!
> 
> Although it is possible someone bought one out of morbid curiosity.



Speaking of morbid curiosity, I still think this guy should illustrate FATAL.


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## darjr (May 4, 2010)

As far as damages go, I think it went some way in damaging the drivethru brand. Seeing it taken down, for me, fixes that, but it could still be an issue for some.

Didn't someone here have access to the contents that were not in the preview? Was that a gratis copy?


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 4, 2010)

Steel_Wind said:


> Really? Gee. Thanks for the education. However, I must confess, that I am well aware of the ins and out of the legal aspects of intellectual property, licensing fees and copyright litigation. I happen to do it for a living. Do you?




Not to start a contest or anything, but check my sig.  I've been an Entertainment lawyer for about 12 years, and also have an MBA in Sports & Entertainment marketing.  IOW, I see the same stuff you see.

I'm not trying to "have his trial" here, but if you really are what you say you are, why post a factually incorrect post in your own area of expertise?

Yeah, the guy is probably so far below the radar that, in all likelihood, nothing will ever come of it.  I'd go so far as to say that 99% of all IP violations go unpunished, even major ones.  Most of the time, even if the infringer is caught, a simple fingerwave or warning is all that happens.

Remember how The Rolling Stones went after The Verve for "Bittersweet Symphony?"  That same album contained an equally lifted song from Vangelis' first band, Aphrodite's Child.  Nobody went after them for it, though, at least not in the courts, AFAIK.



> ... the man has not taken a single cent out of anyone's pocket -- to suggest otherwise is a crock. And you know it, too...but the great and exaggerated affront you seem to have taken on behalf of a party who isn't, in fact, you and has not, in fact, suffered any real damages at all, seems very misplaced.




I beg to differ.

Without seeing the actual source material for his inspirations, we can't say who has suffered damages.  However, you of all people should know that if nothing else, he'd probably owe the photographers their little licensing fee for using their work, assuming he didn't land in some kind of protected "safe harbor."

It may not be _substantial_ damage, but it is _real._  So what if the fee might have only been $200... or just $20?  Or $10?  That's real money out of the photog's pocket.




> When it comes to gamers and technical violations of the Copyright Act, I'll wait for the sinless to cast the first stone, thanks.




I believe I pointed out upthread- and if I didn't, I apologize- all artists (especially in the visual arts) learn at least in part by emulating those who came before.  Its part of the learning process.  But you don't pass off copies as originals.

Besides, we're hardly talking "technical" violations.  Besides the derivative visuals, we've had several posters cite some sizable chunks of lifted material, based on just the sample- who knows what is in the full version?  Some clever redrafting...citation of sources...heck, "reskinning" in some way, all could have minimized the issue.  As you well know.


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## Piratecat (May 4, 2010)

Danny, we cross-posted. Please see my note above. You don't need to remove your post, and thank you for not responding with equal sarcasm, but I want to make sure the thread doesn't turn into sniping.

Holler via PM with questions.


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## Fifth Element (May 4, 2010)

Deleted.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 4, 2010)

Message received, PC.


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## tenkar (May 4, 2010)

Does this mean the accident has been cleared and I can't rubberneck anymore?  

I'm sure some poor fool made a purchase from this guy.  There is a sucker born every minute, or so I have heard...


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## Merkuri (May 4, 2010)

Steel_Wind said:


> 100% of nothing is nothing.  Do you seriously think he sold even a SINGLE copy of this?
> 
> My bet? : not even one.






tenkar said:


> I'm sure some poor fool made a purchase from this guy.  There is a sucker born every minute, or so I have heard...




When I was confirming the plagiarism of Oblivion I noticed that his potions PDF had a list of 4 or 5 "people who bought this also bought..." products, which leads me to believe that at least one and possibly several people bought this.


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## Fifth Element (May 4, 2010)

Merkuri said:


> When I was confirming the plagiarism of Oblivion I noticed that his potions PDF had a list of 4 or 5 "people who bought this also bought..." products, which leads me to believe that at least one and possibly several people bought this.



They sell Florida swampland on RPGNow?


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## Cleverusername (May 4, 2010)

That and I just put up a bridge for sale in Brooklyn if anyone's looking. Oh, hi BTW long-time lurker, first time poster. This whole thread has been hilarious. Just wanted to drop by and thank everyone for the hilarity.


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## Fifth Element (May 4, 2010)

Hi! Clever user name, by the way.


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## Cleverusername (May 4, 2010)

Why...thank you  Clevernickname was already so I went with the next best thing.


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## Silverblade The Ench (May 4, 2010)

TheAuldGrump said:


> Very nice. I can draw better than the victim topic of this thread, but I honestly fail at Daz 3d.  (No time - or patience - to practice.)
> 
> I most certainly agree that good Poser/Daz art is much better than bad hand drawn art. (While I am better at drawing than the artist concerned I would lump my own efforts under 'bad'.) I picked up a goodly amount of Daz material at a recent sale, and do not in any way regret it. I just wish I was better at _using_ it. (They have some very nice Steampunk material, for example.) I would not mind seeing more used by the amateur RPG industry.
> 
> ...




*nod*  oh yeah, the apps now are miles better than years ago, makes it much easier, and there's a huge load of tutorials out there to learn from which is just as important.
the most important thing to learn is *lighting*, doesn't matter what app, good lighting is crucial.

try this book, it's THE refference, huge help 
"Digital Lighting and Rendering by Jeremy Birn" version 2 
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Lighting-Rendering-Jeremy-Birn/dp/0321316312]Amazon.com: Digital Lighting and Rendering (2nd Edition) (9780321316318): Jeremy Birn: Books[/ame]

One of my tutorials is about that, some pics ot illustrate, same scene, just different lighting setups and some tweaks ot render settings

Tutorials: Lightinng for Vue (and Bryce)












Vue, Carrara and Bryce let you import Poser/DAZ folk  and build complex scenes, with foliage or whatever if you want more "scene building"

As you found, grabbing apps/content on sales etc you cna get tons of stuff free or cheap, so I keep telling folk to sign up to news letters or such, as that's how I've afforded my tools 

DAZ Studio is free, though for the better renders you need ot buy the plugins.
BLender is free and amazing, but a *pain* to learn, and importing Poser stuff is complex for beginners.
Bryce 5.5 is free.
so folk can pick this hobby up, it's not that hard really, jsut takes time to get good 

I got into digital art because of Baldurs gate, so hey, yer orc's not alone!


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## jaerdaph (May 4, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> If it helps, think of the people whose IP he misappropriated- they didn't get the payment they were due.  And they clearly love what _they_ did just as much if not more so than he loved what he was doing.
> 
> Who knows?  If he had paid the proper royalties on the photos of the porn stars, they might have been able to afford some clothes!




Thanks Danny. 

Yeah, I know this had to go down like it did.


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## CleverNickName (May 4, 2010)

Cleverusername said:


> Why...thank you  Clevernickname was already so I went with the next best thing.



Didn't I meet you in Powell's a few months ago, when you were working on the #Leverage project?


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## jaerdaph (May 4, 2010)

You guys think you're _so_ Clever!


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## CleverNickName (May 4, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> You guys think you're _so_ Clever!



AFAIK, CleverLogin, CleverHandle, and CleverMoniker are still open.


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## Silverblade The Ench (May 5, 2010)

jaerdaph, 
thanks! 

the_orc_within,
my pleasure 
I've done a pile of tutorials over the years, all free.

art's fun and if you cna mix it with D&D, double fun! 

doctorhook
hehe 

Auld Grump
sent ye a message but don't know if ye got it, not a cummunity supporter so maybe it didn't arrive? (sorry my money goes on D&D and art, kind of stretched thin this weather sigh)

anywya
this is a "studio render", one just to show off a character without any refference. 
lets you see how well the character or model works, and looks nice 






my tutorial on how ot do this
Tutorials: #53: MAKING A STUDI RENDER IN VUE

when I'm building models (usually weapons or Spelljammer ships), I use Maxwell, a special, very expensive render engine, to do tests and "beauty" shots
test renders are really important to check for flaws.

I model in RHino. note that you can afford such apps, *legit*, if you use yer head, I got Rhino at education prices while at college and upgraded ever since, Maxwell I bought when it was in testing so VASTLY cheaper. 

hence I keep telling folk to sign up to newsletters, check sites etc as a 50% sale makes a huge difference when yer an Ordinary Joe with an ordinary budget.
Plenty of cheap/free apps of course, but what is crucial is finding the app *_you enjoy using_* NOTHING is more important than that, exept if yer working in a studio that requires specific tools.

so try various apps (lots of demos out there and PLE versions) to you get the one that's fun to use 

this is my "tutorial", on an introduction to digital art, with some recommend apps to try, will need ot upate it, always new stuff coiming out!
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/tutorials/htm/19.html

[sblock="Maxwell render of SJ ship"]




[/sblock]

and,er, sorry if I've dragged this into more off topic than it should be! 

for folk who "paint" I'd recommend Corel's "Painter", but Photoshop and Paint SHop Pro, as well as GIMP and Dogwaffle are all perfectly good, too.
a "graphics tablet" is an absolute MUST have though. if yer rich, a Wacom Cintiq would be the bomb *drools*!
it's an LCD monitor with a screen you cna use s a graphics tablet.

I'll try and get round to do doing some Ambient Occlusion renders ot show you what I mena about using them as a basis for paintings 
my health sucks at the moment so not been doing as much art as I wanted to.


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## ssampier (May 5, 2010)

So awful... but yet... can't... look... away.

*start mumbling*

ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
*http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Cthulhu*


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## jmucchiello (May 5, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> As should anyone who copies and pastes someone else's post from earlier in this thread, makes a couple of changes, and presents it as their own opinions...



[sblock]
I was going to do this but couldn't figure out how to charge folks $10 (on sale from $20) for the privilege of reading my post.
[/sblock]

Copying of this post is disabled.


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## TheAuldGrump (May 16, 2010)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Auld Grump
> sent ye a message but don't know if ye got it, not a cummunity supporter so maybe it didn't arrive? (sorry my money goes on D&D and art, kind of stretched thin this weather sigh)




Sorry, I have been away from E.N.World - I just don't visit it as much as I did in the 3.X days. Let me take a look....

Hmm, a notice of XP from a few folks (thanks all!), but the only E-mail in the folder is from 2007.... Aaand, nothing in my real world email address folders either. I would have to say that I did not get it.

My real world E-dress is the same as my handle here at Yahoo dotty com.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* That gobber is quite nice.


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## Silverblade The Ench (May 16, 2010)

sigh, ok guess I can't send messages then, nor do I have a "sent" message folder to retrieve it, and with my dittzy memory I cna't recall what I said, lol

no offence to Enworld as I genuinely appreciate the site and would like to subscribe, but DDI subscription, D&D books, art stuff, art proggies etc...can't afford everything :/

Ta!  
been working on more Spelljammer art though, need to work on the goblin shaman's final scene more and it's bugging me hehe


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## Mikaze (May 16, 2010)

Silverblade The Ench said:


>




Someone please tell me I'm not the only one that had Baby Got Back flashbacks run through his head upon seeing this.


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## renau1g (May 16, 2010)

Not just you


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## jaerdaph (May 16, 2010)

Mikaze said:


> Someone please tell me I'm not the only one that had Baby Got Back flashbacks run through his head upon seeing this.




I can see it on the left side, but the other "cheek" looks like Betty White's hip replacement. 

Booty: It's all about the symmetry...


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## Silverblade The Ench (May 16, 2010)

Mikaze,
lol, omg!! 


in case anyone wants to know the real reason the image looks like that...using primitives, sphere, cylinder (and also a teapot, no kidding) are classic ways of testing shadows, colours etc in 3D renders 

thinking of the original topic of this post...Megadeth's verison of "Anarchy in the UK", the video for that would be appropriate, but I won't post as it's probably against the rules, NTSFW etc hehe


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 16, 2010)

Mikaze said:


> Someone please tell me I'm not the only one that had Baby Got Back flashbacks run through his head upon seeing this.




No you are not.

"I like big swords and I cannot lie!
You other brothers can't deny!"


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## Plane Sailing (May 17, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> FYI: This publisher's products are no longer for sale at RPGNow.






doctorhook said:


> Does this mean we're no longer allowed to mock him? [/cruelty]






tenkar said:


> Does this mean the accident has been cleared and I can't rubberneck anymore?




I think we can probably close this thread now.


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