# Help with build: Dexterity based Swashbuckler->Duelist



## Genesist (Jan 19, 2011)

Hello everyone, this is my first time posting on the forums. I had the  idea to make a dexterity based warrior who also adds intelligence to  damage and AC. I however do not have much experience with standard D and  D (mostly done variants), and am wondering if I can get some tips on  the build I have come with. I have done plenty of research, but with  limited experience I am sure that I have overlooked a few things.

Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior)
Warlord (Tome of battle)
Fighter (Player's Handbook)
Duelist (Sword and Fist)

I  am going under be automatically proficient with the main gauche due to  starting as swash, as well as not having an exp penalty for  multicalssing (within reason).

My plan is to use the main guache  and a rapier. I am starting as an air goblin, giving a +4 bonus to dex,  with a -2 to str and con. Please tell me if you recommend another race. I  have 21 dex, 13 str, 13 con, 17 int, 13 wis, and 13 cha. Other than  feats I included a few of the major bonuses gained from class at that  level. We start at level one. 

1.  Swashbuckler: Feat: Two weapon fighting feat, auto get weap finesse
2.  Swashbuckler:
3.  Swashbuckler: Dodge feat, auto int to damage 
4.  Fighter: improved weapon finesse feat
5.  Warlord: Mountain hammer, punishing stance, stone vise, adamantine bones
6.  Fighter: mobility feat ambidexterity feat
7.  Duelist: Int to AC
8.  Duelist:
9.  Duelist: Main guache feat
10. Duelist:
11. Duelist:
12. Duelist: not sure what feat to add
13. Duelist:
14. Duelist:
15. Duelist:
16. Duelist:: not sure what feat to add

So please, improvements/suggestions?


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## Eman Resu (Jan 19, 2011)

Genesist said:


> Hello everyone, this is my first time posting on the forums. I had the idea to make a dexterity based warrior who also adds intelligence to damage and AC. I however do not have much experience with standard D and D (mostly done variants), and am wondering if I can get some tips on the build I have come with. I have done plenty of research, but with limited experience I am sure that I have overlooked a few things.
> 
> Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior)
> Warlord (Tome of battle)
> ...




improved initiative and lightening initiative (name ? its the +8 to init), Karmatic strike (for some situations), combat reflexes, spring attack, bounding assault, two wep defense, imp two wep fighting, greater two wep fighting, imp critical, great we p finese (dex to damage as well). Not sure about warlord, so I dont know those class/feat abilities...

happy hunting/wenching/womanizing!

PS: practice your outrageous French accent, alla Peter Sellers or Holy Grail... this will annoy the heck out of the other PC's, once the entire party is annoyed by you and you always get the girl only then will you be a poofter! 

Eman Resu


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## Genesist (Jan 19, 2011)

I avoid two weapon fighting, as it does not  function with duelist, which is what I was interested in. I will look into the rest of what you suggested, thanks for the advice! Also considered two weap defense, but didn't seem worth it.


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## Eman Resu (Jan 19, 2011)

Genesist said:


> I avoid two weapon fighting, as it does not function with duelist, which is what I was interested in. I will look into the rest of what you suggested, thanks for the advice! Also considered two weap defense, but didn't seem worth it.




ohh I thought you said you were planning on using the "parry dagger" and Rapier, that is two wep fighting


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## Genesist (Jan 19, 2011)

Also I have improved weapon finesse in the build, and did take one level of two weapon fighting, just so that I can use the main gauche for the extra AC, wondering if it's worth it at all.


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## Genesist (Jan 19, 2011)

What is the parrying dagger from?


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## Eman Resu (Jan 19, 2011)

Genesist said:


> What is the parrying dagger from?




I was ref to your main-gauche as a defensive weapon, much like a spiked buckler would be.


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## Dandu (Jan 19, 2011)

Duelist is a bad PrC that locks you into a weak fighting style. I'd avoid it like the Wailing Death. You can get a lot of AC, but as the Maginot Line proved, enemies can simply walk around you and kill the rest of your party before dealing with you.

I'd go Swashbuckler3/WarbladeX. Throw on a Tome of Battle prestige class if you want.


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## Eman Resu (Jan 19, 2011)

Genesist said:


> Also I have improved weapon finesse in the build, and did take one level of two weapon fighting, just so that I can use the main gauche for the extra AC, wondering if it's worth it at all.




You could use fist, knee & foot as a traditional off hand attack while weilding 1 wep. I think your build is intended for 1 wep, that is the duelist benefits from weilding 1 wep.

A level or two of Monk would be a great (mechanical) dip class for you. 
unarmed strike
deflect arrow (better than wrestling for your build)
combat ref
wis to AC
 not to mention the good saves all around!

I also suggest quick draw & close quarter combat, so any would be grapplers get attacked 1st!


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## Empirate (Jan 19, 2011)

The idea of a Dex based fighter is surprisingly hard to pull off in D&D 3.5. First of all, let me recommend getting some sort of bonus damage. Insightful Strike is a start, but doesn't really make up for losing the tons of Power Attack damage a Str-focused build would provide. Look into getting Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike or Skirmish damage dice. The best would probably be a few Rogue levels, and the Daring Outlaw feat. This lets your Swashbuckler levels count as Rogue levels for continuing Sneak Attack progression. Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 is a simple and useful build. Use the TWF feat chain for the full benefit from sneak attack damage.

Second, Duelist is often commented on as being very weak (even weaker than straight Swashbuckler, IMO). It forces you into a horrible fighting style: one-handed light weapons. That way, you forgo almost all the damage you can do - Precise Strike is much too little to compensate. Also, while Int to AC is nice, you have to be unarmored to use this feature. A simple Chain Shirt will do more for you here. Elaborate Parry is the only worthwhile class feature, and this comes really late.

Since Tome of Battle is obviously allowed, how about going stright Warblade or Swordsage? Maneuvers will allow you to deal good damage even while using light weapons. The Shadow Blade feat allows you to add Dex to damage with certain weapons, as long as you have Swordsage levels.


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## arcseed (Jan 19, 2011)

How to get int to AC: Be smart enough to buy the heaviest armor consistent with your DEX.  With a +5 DEX, you can wear a mithril breastplate for an additional +5 AC and your full dex bonus, with additional enhancement bonuses cheaper than the armor bonus from bracers.

And no gimpy feats to qualify for a gimpy prestige class.  And you can use two weapons, with a feat a buckler (and another source of enhancement bonuses).

Elaborate parry is the ability that really gets you the high AC from the duelist, but it's probably still not worth it.


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## Genesist (Jan 19, 2011)

so would you recommend going straight warblade and ignoring dex (as well as choosing a different race). Or should I do that with warblade/3 levels in swash?


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## kitcik (Jan 19, 2011)

Warblade is a very strong and flexible melee class. Tht said, if everyone played wizards, sorcs, druids, clerics and warblades, D&D wouldn't be as fun.

I agree with Dandu - go Swash 3 / Warblade X / ToB PrC - it will put you more in the RP mode while still making a strong character.


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## Eman Resu (Jan 19, 2011)

the problem here is feel, vibe, flavor. It would be easier if you told us what you wanted and we could make it happen. If you want a unarmored pc that in and of itself cuts out a lot of ideas/suggestions but still leaves a lot to be discussed. Unarmored, is one thing but now you want to be a martial type-melee combatant? or a skill junky rogue/scout type? or a spell caster?

so its easier if you tell us what you want, do you want to cast spells, be a warrior type? just give us a percentage 1-100. The total sum of your pc is 100. Now place a value assigning a number to each ability, the higher the priority the higher the number. This should make it easy for us to help you. Just put a number next to the below, the total of eerything below to equal 100. This will give us a great idea as to what it is you want and we can really narrow down selections and give better advice

melee prowess
archer/thrown weapon
saving throws
hit pionts
armor class
skill points
spellcasting divine
spellcasting arcane
spellcasting psionic (called manefesting)
unarmored
any race with or without LA
big and strong
medium and quick


notice I didnt put down multiclassing or mixing of abilites we will do that with what you select.


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## kitcik (Jan 19, 2011)

*Cool idea - build me a character!*

This should have its own thread, or even its own board.

I want my next character to have:
Sneak attack ability
Ability to move in and out of combat
Some missile weapon capability
Blazing fast speed or teleportation or something, or a fly speed
High AC or displacement or other
Any race, LA no more than +1
At least some utility in non-combat situations

OK, let 'er rip....


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## Eman Resu (Jan 19, 2011)

kitcik said:


> This should have its own thread, or even its own board.
> 
> I want my next character to have:
> Sneak attack ability
> ...




a gish type that moves fast, displacement, have you ever looked into the Swiftblade  prc? if not do so, its most of what you listed.

If you like teleport and you want it many times a day look into psion or erudite / elocater


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## kitcik (Jan 19, 2011)

Thanks, that's perfect. I never looked at Swiftblade before since it's got a big arcane component and I usually don't play casters.

Would you suggest something like human Warblade 1 / Wizard 5 / Warblade +4 / Swiftblade 10 as a plan?

I mean Elf Wizard 10 / Swiftblade 10 gets a lot more casting power, but it seems to somewhat defeat the purpose of Swiftblade.

What would a good balance be? Should I enter Swiftblade as soon as I qualify, or build up to it more?


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## Dandu (Jan 19, 2011)

> Warblade 1 / Wizard 5 / Warblade +4 / Swiftblade 10 as a plan?



Seems like it would work fairly well, though if you're going for a Warblade/Wizard you might want to try Jade Phoenix Mage.

You want to have higher level spell slots to make full use of the Swiftblade capstone ability, so perhaps Warblade1/Wizard4/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 10 would be better for a Swiftblade build.



kitcik said:


> I want my next character to have:
> Sneak attack ability



Assassin's Stance, ToB, gives +2d6 Sneak Attack.



> Ability to move in and out of combat



You can definitely do this as a tumbling Swordsage.



> Some missile weapon capability



There's the Bloodstorm Blade PrC in ToB that's very good for thrown weapon users.



> Blazing fast speed or teleportation or something, or a fly speed



Swordsage gets a maneuver that allows for short ranged teleportation.



> High AC or displacement or other



There's probably something in ToB for this.



> At least some utility in non-combat situations



There's a few utility maneuvers in ToB.

I think you might find a Warblade/Swordsage/Bloodstorm Blade/Master of the Nine fun.


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## Genesist (Jan 19, 2011)

Sorry, haven't been able to get on. I am not interested at all in casting. And don't want to play a burly armored character, nor am I interested in range or being a skill monkey. I am okay with some sneak, but not to the point of wanting to go rogue. A character who can dodge a bit, and deal nice damage, maybe with some interesting tricks is ideal. maybe the PrC sun/dark ninja thing from ToB?


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## BENINHB (Jan 20, 2011)

I would go Swash3/Wiz3/Spellsword1/Abjurant ChampionX/SwiftbladeX 

1 Swash (free Weapon Finesse, Feat TWF)
2 Wizard (pick up some buffs and utility spells, Trade away the Familiar for something else. i like Abrupt Jaunt)
3 Swash (Feat: Knowledge Devotion, Makes TWF work since you can actually hit and increase the INT to damage theme both mechanically and for role playing reasons)
4 Swash (Insightful Strike for +INT to Damage)
5 Wizard (more arcane goodness per day)
6 Wizard (feat: Power Attack, your To Hit should be super high from buffs and knowledge devotion. Use power attack to turn that into damage.)
7 Spellsword (+1 BaB, +1 casting class lvl, -10% spell failure)
8+ Abjurant Champion (Full BaB, Casting progression, Great Class features for a fighter/mage)
10+ Add some Swiftblade in here and there to fill out where Abjurant Champion ends

You could switch the order you take Power Attack and TWF if you want, i went with TWF first since i know you will meet the pre-reqs at 1st lvl and depending on where you put your stats you might not start with 13STR for Power Attack. Power Attack + Truestrike while two handing a weapon is a great combo at lower levels.

There is a lot of elf hate out there for the hit they take to CON but I like the Fire Elf from pg 17 of Unearthed Arcana for this build. +2 DEX +2 INT -2 CON -2 CHA, Fire Resistance 5 (so commonly useful, even outside of combat) and all the normal Elf Immunities and bonuses.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jan 20, 2011)

If all else fails, 3e has an incredibly bustling homebrew fanbase, and there's a few places (I think Giant in the Playgound has the biggest) where you can browse selections to find a class or PrC that best fits your ideas.


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## Genesist (Jan 20, 2011)

My DM doesn't allow homebrew for the most part. However I just found something I love. Warlock 3, swordsage 2, shadow sun ninja. Get necropolitan in there. With the warlock you get the shadow spell thing (forget the technical name), and get the blend into shadows feat. Constantly allowing hide, and with the SS ninja's ability to blind everyone when they attack from hide, it is amazing. Plus their negative energy attack followed by positive allows you to heal yourself and party.


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## Eman Resu (Jan 20, 2011)

Genesist said:


> Sorry, haven't been able to get on. I am not interested at all in casting. And don't want to play a burly armored character, nor am I interested in range or being a skill monkey. I am okay with some sneak, but not to the point of wanting to go rogue. A character who can dodge a bit, and deal nice damage, maybe with some interesting tricks is ideal. maybe the PrC sun/dark ninja thing from ToB?




Let me see you dont want a heavy armored pc - no tank. You want to hide a bit, move around but not nec. a skill junky. 

random classes

Monk for 6 levels
Scout for the uncanny dodge, evasion, skirmish
Warlock for the darkness at will or spider climb whatever build you want pick a Warlock package that best fits for a level or more
Shadow Dancer for a 3 level dip is nice


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## Eman Resu (Jan 20, 2011)

or 
1 Scout (bab, 2 good saves & skill pts)
2 ranger
3 scout
4 ranger
5 scout
6 scout
7 scout
8 fighter
9 fighter

ok so heres a range archer build, that moves, has very good skill pts, lightly armored, "almost max bab", has good reflex and fort saves, not awesome, but functional. Get the shot on the run feat for the skirmish, run around and shoot the enemy. 2nd level ranger gives you rapid shot, 2 levels of fighter = 2 more feats, scout gives bonus feat...so your doing ok as far as feats go, the best thing as an archer is you get hit a lot less and you can threaten the whole battlefield to add support where needed.


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## Eman Resu (Jan 20, 2011)

and here is another, I got it from a gestalt build that was just insane. I dont know the exact numbers but hopefully you can research to see if this is even possible with a straight non gestalt build.

soulknife/kensai/soulbow/fighter/psion

the idea is your a missile platform, with a shyt load of feats and the class blade/arrow enhancments all stack on your mind blade/arrow. This player had a + 10 weapon with all the feats you would want and had many attacks. He was a low level Psion just enough for some low level powers for self buffing.


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