# DREAD NECROMANCER and TOMB-TAINTED SOUL feat---what do I do?



## Razz (Sep 24, 2006)

Ok the *Dread Necromancer* class in _*Heroes of Horror*_ has an ability called _Charnel Touch_. They basically channel negative energy that damages living creatures and heals undead. This can be done at will, no limit.

*Tomb-Tainted Soul * is a feat that allows you to heal from negative energy but suffer damage from positive energy.

Now basically, he'll always be healed to maximum at the end of each encounter since he can just touch himself and continually boosts his hp back up. This is the first broken combo I've come upon and I am not sure exactly what to do.

Then again, at 20th-level Dread Necromancer, you're an undead. Which means you can do the same combo without the feat that time. However that's at 20th. This is a 1st-level character that can pull it off.

Maybe I should house rule that you can use Charnel Touch on other creatures but not yourself. Or I should ask the authors or WotC about this.

Any thoughts?


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## RigaMortus2 (Sep 24, 2006)

What book is Tomb-Tained Soul in?  You could always disallow it...


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## Question (Sep 24, 2006)

Seeing as how the spell list is geared towards summoning low HD undead that will last maybe 1-2 rounds max(even if you pour most of your feats on undead summoning augmenting feats), or touch spells that will get you killed with low hd and light armor, i dont really consider this a problem.

The way encounters are structured, a cleric can handle the healing needs of a party anyway, so this is really only a problem if you throw dozens of encounters at a party every day.....in which case infinite healing will be better. But in most cases what you need is lots of healing on the spot in the middle of a battle. Its like CLW vs lesser vigor.


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## MadMaxim (Sep 24, 2006)

It's from Libris Mortis, and the combo you mention is just too obvious. The same goes for evil-aligned Clerics who spontaneously cast _inflict_ spells. Of course, they have a limited number of slots to do it with, but it still works the same way. Considering that you have a Dread Necromancer in your party, perhaps some good-aligned Clerics might start hunting him/her for dealing with the undead in that way. They might see him/her as an abomination because he/she sustains his/her life through negative energy which certainly isn't meant for living creatures.

Other than that, it's just a good combo and if the enemies choose to focus their attention on the Dread Necromancer, he/she will still go down as fast as any other arcane spellcaster.


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## Jubilee (Sep 24, 2006)

In every campaign I have played in, unless there were serious time constraints or endless waves of baddies, we have always taken the time to heal ourselves back up to full after an encounter before moving on to another.  Whether this means divine healing or wands of cure light wounds or potions, we have taken the time and expend the resources.  If it meant the cleric was out of spells or our wands had expired, then we made camp or headed back to civilization.  It just doesn't seem like that big of a deal that the dread necromancer could heal himself 1 hit point a round, especially if after everyone else were done, the cleric still needed to rest to recover spells.


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## airwalkrr (Sep 25, 2006)

Specifically, the ability to heal up completely after a fight is not a problem. However, in D&D, it is expected that this will consume resources.

Essentially, the dread necromancer gets a lich's or death knight's touch ability. The wording is not exactly the same, but given that the dread necromancer becomes a lich at 20th level and the effect is practically identical means that one is at least based on the other. Would you allow a lich or death knight to heal themselves with their negative energy touch? If so, then you should allow the PC to do the same. If not, then you could disallow the PC for the same reason; it is not in the spirit of the rules.

My personal opinion? The rules state what is specifically allowed. In this case, a dread necromancer's charnel touch explicitly states it can heal undead creatures and tomb-tainted soul explicitly says you are considered undead for the purpose of being healed by negative energy. On the surface, the combo seems allowable. The question is, did the designers foresee this as a problem? I am guessing not since they make the dread necromancer a lich at 20th level anyway. Consequently, I doubt that they considered it would be an issue, although perhaps they did not think of tomb-tainted soul. At any rate, the player is thinking very short term if he takes this feat as he will eventually become undead anyway.


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## Nyeshet (Sep 25, 2006)

Perhaps state that they need to use a Turn/Rebuke Attempt to use the Charnal Touch? That will somewhat limit their uses per day.


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## Sejs (Sep 25, 2006)

As far as healing goes, it's pretty crappy.  Each touch heals 1 hp +1 per four caster levels.

So yeah, sure, given enough time he can heal himself back up to full but that's all time they're not doing something else.

Also bear in mind that with tomb-tainted soul the dread necromancer is very self sufficient, but at the same time they cannot be healed by the party cleric unless said cleric is evil or goes out of their way to memorize inflicts in addition to whatever other spells they prep.

In the end it's not that bad.  I'd just leave it be.


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## FireLance (Sep 25, 2006)

I think that the ability to start each encounter at full hit points isn't as broken as many people used to believe. 

From experience, once a party gets access to a _wand of cure light wounds_ (which, depending on the campaign, could happen as early as 3rd or even 2nd level) most PCs will go into fights at or close to full hit points anyway. 

Even in a campaign that does not allow easy access to magic items, most parties will try to retreat and rest when they have depleted most of their resources, especially hit points and the spells that restore them.

Unless the DM's primary means of challenging the PCs is to keep them constantly at low hit points, the combination of Charnel Touch and Tomb-Tainted Soul doesn't sound game-breaking to me, especially if the dread necromancer is only healing his own wounds. 

Mind you, even if the other party members catch on to the idea and take Tomb-Tainted Soul as well (if alignment permits), all that means to me as a DM is that the party will need to rest less, and I will be able to calibrate the challenges better since I can be fairly sure that the PCs will be at full hit points at the start of each one. Individual fights can still be pretty challenging since the rate of "healing" output for Charnel Touch is too low to have a significant effect once combat begins.


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## IceFractal (Sep 25, 2006)

Its not really a problem, especially because a Dread Necromancer is primarily a summoner type, and not at all a tank.  As such, spell slots, not hit points, are the resource that determines when they have to stop and rest.  A summoner shouldn't really be getting hit anyway, and if they are attacked, they're pretty much as likely to die at full hp as partial hp, given their low totals.  

Even if the whole party somehow benefits from this, it's not really a big deal - it just means they'll last a few more encounters before they need to rest, but they won't be much stronger in any given encounter.  Ditto for fast healing - it's not the problem it's cracked  up to be.  

The perception of this as a problem may come from the idea of healing as a Cleric's niche, something that should not be infringed on.  Now that Clerics can fight and cast a variety of non-healing buffing and summoning spells, healing is more properly looked at as a chore that should be shared to the extent possible.


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## moritheil (Sep 25, 2006)

This is more of a liability to the player than a help, as the DM will usually subconsciously correct by throwing a little more damage at a player who has the ability to heal himself/herself at will.  People do not die of wounds between fights; they die of wounds _in_ fights, and the rate of healing that combo offers is not so astronomical.


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## Kurotowa (Sep 26, 2006)

It also makes combat healing harder.  You get left out of the Mass Cure, you can't be hit with an emergancy Heal, and so on.  Not that important at low levels, but it makes a lot of difference at high levels.


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## Tharkon (Aug 21, 2011)

This isn't the only one combo for that either.
I don't know at what level you can take Dread Necromancer, since I don't have Heroes of Horror.

Touch of Healing (Complete Champion, p.62) grants a healing touch infinitely usable on all living creatures, given enough time.
Storm Bolt  (Complete Mage, p.42) combined with Mechanatrix (Fiend Folio, p.137) allows healing yourself while attacking others.


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## Wyvernhand (Aug 23, 2011)

Dread Necro is a base class, so it can be taken from level 1. If all of the other players put their heads together and think, they can ALL take TTS and the Dread Necro can top EVERYONE up after combat.

But really, infinite or near infinite OOC healing is amazingly easy to obtain. The player is paying a feat and playing a specfic class to get this benefit. The player could just as easily be a Binder (Tome of Magic) and bind Buer to gain Fast Healing 1 all day, and the ability to heal other players for 1 HP/touch as a standard action or 1d8+level as a full round action 1/5 rounds. She also grants you and your allies within 30' full immunity to poisons, diseases, and the Track feat.

Or buy a Wand of Lesser Vigor (CDivine) which heals 550 HP for 750g over 550 rounds (out of combat, this is amazing, in combat, not so much). Alternatively, MIC has the Healing Belt, which heals 2d8 HP per charge @ 3 charges/day for 750g each. A half a dozen belts will heal 36d8 HP damage each day for the same cost as a CL3 Wand of Cure Moderate, but again, will take a handful of rounds, and thus isn't really that amazing in combat. A single SNA IV will get you a unicorn, which has a Cure Moderate + 3x Cure Light wounds, 5 levels of cure for the price of a 4th level spell (spontaneously). The Touch of Healing reserve feat in CChamp and the Draconic Vigor aura (available to Dragon Shamen, or any dragonblooded character with a feat to burn) provide infinite healing up to 1/2 HP.

There are plenty of consumable resources for you to tire your players out. Spells, for one, combat or utility. Also, charges/day from a lot of the stuff in the MIC run low with multiple combats. Really, if you step out of core (or even within core, with CLW sticks), there is almost no reason why a PC should ever start combat with less than full HP. As long as you understand this, and plan for it, its not THAT much harder to balance. A Dread Necro who burned all of his spells is reduced to meleeing or plinking away with his composite longbow if he picked his proficiency right. That alone is worth taking a break to rest and regroup.

Required reading for anyone who gets browbeaten into playing a "healbot" cleric.

EDIT: Holy necromancery Batman!  This thread is almost 5 years old!


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## Ahnehnois (Aug 23, 2011)

Razz said:


> Any thoughts?



My thought is that out-of-combat healing is not a major balancing factor in most D&D games. Most parties will rest after any legitimately challenging battle and heal up anyway. In some games, you won't even fight frequently enough for battle damage to matter. Obviously you know better than us whether your game works this way.

As others have noted, there are more infinite healing loopholes than just this one, and being quasi-undead has drawbacks. While it does feel a bit cheesy, I don't think allowing it will kill your game. That said, there's nothing wrong with just saying no to the feat if you're uncomfortable with it. Do you really want your PCs to have "tomb-tained souls" anyway?


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## Tharkon (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, out of combat healing can be useful if you just won a fight and are about to bash in a door for the next fight. You wouldn't rest at that point, but free healing (not costing half your daily spells) is very welcome at that point.


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## Stalker0 (Aug 24, 2011)

I can say that in our 9th level planescape game the Dread Necromancer was by far the strongest character, weidling an army of undead he could heal to full without issue, as well as healing himself.

He was literally an army of one....except with hordes of undead.


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## Empirate (Aug 24, 2011)

Around levels 8-10, the Dread Necromancer is at his strongest, I'd say. After that, undead creatures that're worthwhile to animate start having a few too many HD. You can't have an "army" that is also composed of creatures which are at all useful then.
When you advance a few levels, you'll probably see Wizard and Cleric leaving the DN a bit behind.


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## NEXxREX (Aug 29, 2011)

iv played dread necros for an entire epic campaign and their awesome but you all are missing the point, dread necromancer.........IS A NECROMANCER. 

he relies on being able to hide behind undead or other party members, their more resilient then mages but depending on their con scores they usually dont have that many HP so if they really need to use their charnel touch in combat then their playing the class wrong. cause a wand of cure mod is like what 4.5k for 50 charges and thats if your dm doesnt increase the price which cant be much if he did

the tombtainted soul is just a bonus so he can heal himself as well as summoned or constructed undead (and at lv8 he gets undead mastery so he can have 4+cha mod/hd of undead with animate dead) which is a hell of alot. its more about utility beign able to heal your created undead if nice cause THERES NO OTHER WAY TO DO IT BEISDES INFLICT WOUNDS (so if you blow your spell you got to wait a day or longer depending where you are) and the flavor is nice which if your playing in a good aligned party that doesnt know your evil gets really fun making will saves when your party tries to heal you.

and the healing cap just makes it viable out of combat, but during combat 1d8+ 1 pt evry 4 lvs......i mean cmon its pathetic at higher levels. and the tomb-tainted soul is more useful with negative energy burst for emergency healing of 1d4 per class level in a 5 ft area around you, so surround youself with undead and heal yourself and them.

the charnel touch is just 1 aspect of the class to help you out yeah being able to heal out of combat is nice but the dm can throw thing at you besides damage (ability score damage, paralysis, poison) theres a million things to get around it if you have a creative dm. so in the long run its useful but not as over powered as some of you are thinking its just another class feature to help you play a NECROMANCER....


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