# Epic Destinies and Earth Giants



## DandD (May 12, 2008)

*Here is the excerpt about hill giants, and earth titans: *

[sblock]As a staple of fantasy, giants are instantly recognizable to any player: big, often brutish creatures that look like people, wielding enormous clubs or axes. They make great opponents at any tier of play, and we naturally wanted to keep them in 4th Edition.

However, giants as a group had some problems. Many giants of previous editions suffered from being too similar to each other. Hill giants and stone giants, for example, behaved almost identically in combat and differed only in Armor Class and Intelligence (stone giant elders were a rare exception.) Yet at the same time, giants as a whole had little in common other than being good at throwing and catching rocks, and carrying around sacks filled with random junk. That’s just not enough to hang an entire creature type on.

Later Monster Manuals introduced more interesting kinds of giants, such as the death giant, wrapped in captive souls, and the eldritch giant, a highly intelligent being that could use magic items and spells to devastating effect. The fantastic qualities of such giants made them more distinctive and challenging opponents. As part of the overall 4th Edition design philosophy, we took the best of those ideas to give giants more variety. At the same time, we decided to emphasize the more supernatural aspects of giants as a unifying factor.

The new cosmology, rooted in a great war between the primordial first creators and the gods, offered a way to incorporate giants into the setting. Many existing giants already embodied elemental forces, such as stone, fire, and wind. The natural next step was to make them into elemental beings, the first creatures shaped by the primordials to assist them in their work. This approach actually returned giants to their Classical roots as creatures embodying natural forces. In keeping with that ancestry, titans also became an elemental race, precursors to and creators of the lesser giants. Now a titan isn’t just a big dude with a ton of spell-like powers, but a powerful leader whose nature is closely tied to an element or kind of energy.

Having been forged in the Elemental Chaos, giants moved into other worlds. The fall of the primordials drove their creations into the planes, where they adapted to local conditions and became less closely tied to their origins. Some giants built mighty empires in the world, enslaving the dwarves in so doing. By adding this backstory to dwarves in the implied setting of the game, we were able to provide some roleplaying hooks for that race, as well as better define the roles of elemental dwarflike creatures in the setting, most notably galeb duhr and azers.

A few, such as the death giants, embody their adopted planes more than the elements—but that heritage lives on, along with their memories of ancient power and empire. When the primordials stir, giants are naturally drawn to their side in order to fight once more for control of creation.

Giants are hulking humanoid creatures with fundamental ties to the world, be that bedrock, uncontrollable fires, raging storms, or inevitable death. The first giants were massive titans of fire and frost, storm and stone. These giants labored under primordial lords to shape the newly forming world.

In the eons since the first days, giants have multiplied and moved on, finding places to call their own in planes beyond the Elemental Chaos, including the Shadowfell and the Feywild, and even in the realm of their masters’ deific foes, the Astral Sea. However, giants prefer the world their labor helped create, and giants of every variety can be found upon it. Indeed, when the primordials retreated from the world, one of the first empires of that dawn era was one created by giants, and their slaves were the children of Moradin. But those heady days are long vanished.

Giants and titans tend to lair in extreme environments, including scrublands, mountain peaks, volcanic calderas, and searing deserts. These brutal landscapes remind giants of the Elemental Chaos where their ancestors first drew breath.

Giants as a whole answer to no particular overlord or higher power, nor are they known to cooperate among themselves. Indeed, giant clans often make war each other, though no one except giants know why they fight. However, should ever an imprisoned or lost primordial return to the world, giants of the lineage once loyal to it would obey that ancient one’s command.

Giants have marshaled just so in past primordial awakenings. Giants have long memories and longer oral histories, and most clans await the day they can renew their claim on the world in service to an unstoppable primordial entity.
--Jennifer Clarke Wilkes





Earth Giant

Creatures of stone and rock, earth giants are mean, uncouth, territorial monsters that often enslave smaller, weaker creatures.

Earth giants live in mountainside caves, as well as valleys, rocky barrens, canyons, and foothills.
Hill Giant
Level 13 Brute
Large natural humanoid (giant)
XP 800
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +7
HP 159; Bloodied 79
AC 25; Fortitude 27, Reflex 21, Will 23
Speed 8
MeleeGreatclub (standard; at-will) Weapon
Reach 2; +15 vs. AC; 1d10 + 5 damage.
MeleeSweeping Club (standard; encounter) Weapon
The hill giant makes a greatclub attack against two Medium or smaller targets; on a hit, the target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone.
RangedHurl Rock (standard; at-will)
Ranged 8/16; +15 vs. AC; 2d6 + 5 damage.
Alignment Chaotic evil
Languages Giant
Skills Athletics +16
Str 21 (+11)
Dex 8 (+5)
Wis 12 (+7)
Con 19 (+10)
Int 7 (+4)
Cha 9 (+5)
Equipment hide armor, greatclub
Hill Giant Tactics

A hill giant hurls rocks at opponents until they close to melee range, at which point it switches to using its greatclub. As soon as two smaller targets come within reach, the giant uses sweeping club to knock them prone. A hill giant is wise enough to flee if hopelessly outmatched.
Earth Titan
Level 16 Elite Brute
Huge elemental humanoid (earth, giant)
XP 2,800
Initiative +7Senses Perception +9
HP 384; Bloodied 192
AC 31; Fortitude 33, Reflex 27, Will 28
Immune petrification
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6
Action Points 1
MeleeSlam (standard; at-will)
Reach 3; +20 vs. AC; 2d10 + 6 damage.
MeleeDouble Attack (standard; at-will)
The earth titan makes two slam attacks.
RangedHurl Rock (standard; at-will)
Ranged 20; +18 vs. Reflex; 2d8 + 6 damage, and the target is dazed (save ends).
Alignment Chaotic evil
Languages Giant, Primordial
Skills Athletics +19
Str 23 (+14)
Dex 8 (+7)
Wis 12 (+9)
Con 22 (+14)
Int 11 (+8)
Cha 13 (+9)
Earth Titan Tactics

An earth titan hurls rocks at foes until they close to melee, at which point it pounds them with its stony fists, spending its action point to use earth shock. Unlike their hill giants cousins, earth titans stand their ground even when faced with a losing battle.
Earth Giant Lore

A character knows the following information with a successful Arcana check.

    DC 20: Earth giants are the most brutish of giantkind. They inhabit badlands, deserts, and canyons, though lesser earth giants (such as hill giants) often gather in high mountain valleys and along mountain passes.

    DC 25: Many of the dwarves who were enslaved by the earth giants were transformed as galeb duhrs. Some of them continue to serve earth giants, while others escaped and view giants (and earth giants in particular) as bitter enemies.

Encounter Groups

Earth giants associate with other giants, as well as with galeb duhrs and other monstrous and savage humanoids.

Level 13 Encounter (XP 4,000)

    * 3 hill giants (level 13 brute)
    * 1 displacer beast packlord (level 13 elite skirmisher)

Level 17 Encounter (XP 7,800)

    * 1 earth titan (level 16 elite brute)
    * 2 hill giants (level 13 brute)
    * 2 war trolls (level 14 soldier)
    * 4 ogre bludgeoneers (level 16 minion)


    Be sure to return Wednesday for a look at the economy![/sblock]



*And how you can "win" the game at level 30.  :*
[sblock]When your character reaches 21st level, you can choose your epic destiny.

What does that mean?

Your epic destiny is a few things, actually. While it’s true that your epic destiny allows you to bend, break, or ignore some of the laws of the universe, an epic destiny isn’t merely about acquiring even more power. After all, you continue to gain more and more powerful class powers as you rise toward 30th level, some of which are nearly as fantastic as those your epic destiny provides.

You see, what your epic destiny is really about is defining your place in the universe. Your epic destiny is the mythic archetype your character aspires to achieve. Once you reach 21st level, the greatness you always knew you were destined for is no longer theoretical; it is actual.

As you continue to gain levels, working toward 30th, the challenges you take on become larger and more significant, potentially affecting nations, worlds, or even the universe itself. Thus, your epic destiny shapes your lasting impact on the campaign and helps determine how people forever afterward remember and talk about you.

Did you defeat Atropus, the roving World Born Dead? Did you defeat the Hulks of Zoretha when they rose unlooked for in the ancient wastes? Did you stem the catastrophic tide of Pandorym when it revived enough to begin eating even the gods?

Yes, perhaps you did.

And once you’ve achieved so much, your epic destiny allows you a way to gracefully step aside, to make room for new generations of heroes to take up the fight. After all, your immortality is assured, whether in myth or in actuality (depending on the destiny you chose). Upon completing your epic quest, where you faced the greatest challenges of your career, your destiny describes why, after so many adventures, you finally take your leave of the mortal realm… and where you go next.
--Bruce Cordell





Your epic destiny describes the mythic archetype you aspire to achieve. Some characters have a clear epic destiny in mind from the moment they began adventuring, while others discover their epic destiny somewhere along the way.

Most people don’t ever come close to achieving an epic destiny. Whether they simply failed in their journey, or whether the universe never intended them to gain such lofty heights, is unknown and unknowable.

Your epic destiny sets you apart from such individuals—you know you’re destined for greatness and you have every opportunity to achieve it.
Extraordinary Power

Compared to a class or paragon path, an epic destiny grants few benefits, but those it bestows are exceptional. Certain laws of the universe work differently for you—and some don’t apply at all.

Your race, class, path, and other character elements might define what you can do, but your epic destiny defines your place in the universe.
Immortality

Each epic destiny defines your lasting impact on the world or even the universe: how people forever afterward remember and talk about you.

Some people achieve lasting fame or notoriety without achieving an epic destiny, but that’s a fleeting thing. Inevitably, those people are forgotten, lost in the murky depths of history. Your epic destiny ensures that your name and exploits live on forever.
The End

Perhaps most important, your epic destiny describes your character’s exit from the world at large (and more specifically, from the game) once you’ve completed your final adventure. It lays out why, after so many adventures, you finally take your leave of the mortal realm—and where you go next.
Gaining an Epic Destiny

Epic destiny abilities accrue from 21st to 30th level. As shown on the Character Advancement table in Chapter 2, your epic abilities pick up where paragon path benefits leave off.

After gaining all other benefits of reaching 21st level (including class features, ability score increases, and the like), you can choose an epic destiny.

Epic destinies are broader in scope than a class or paragon path. Though most have certain requirements to enter, even these typically apply to a wide range of characters with various backgrounds, talents, and powers.

If you don’t choose an epic destiny at 21st level, you can choose one at any level thereafter. You retroactively gain all benefits of the epic destiny appropriate to your current level.
Fulfilling Your Epic Destiny

The “Immortality” feature of your destiny is not gained at 30th level. Instead, it is gained when you and your allies complete their Destiny Quest. This is described more thoroughly in the Dungeon Master’s Guide, but essentially, your Destiny Quest is the final grand adventure of the campaign, during which you face the greatest challenges of your characters’ careers.

This quest might actually begin before 30th level (in fact, most do), but the climax of the quest can only occur after all participants have reached 30th level. Upon completing your Destiny Quest, your adventuring career—and your life as a normal mortal being—effectively ends. Your DM might give your character a little time to put affairs in order before moving on, or it can occur spontaneously upon completion of the quest. Work with your DM to determine the appropriate timing based on your character, your destiny, and the quest.

Once you’ve completed your Destiny Quest and initiated your ascension to immortality, your character’s story has ended. He lives on in legend, but he no longer takes part in mortal events. Instead, it’s time to create a new group of adventurers and begin a new story.
Archmage

As the Archmage, you lay claim to being the world’s preeminent wizard.

Prerequisite: 21st-level wizard

Your lifelong perusal of grimoires, librams, tomes, and spellbooks has finally revealed the foundation of reality to you: Spells are each tiny portions of a larger arcane truth. Every spell is part of some far superior working, evoking just a minuscule fraction of that ultimate formula. As you continue your studies, you advance your mastery of spells so much that they begin to infuse your flesh, granting you a facility in their use undreamed of by lesser practitioners.

You are often called to use your knowledge to defend the world from supernormal threats. Seeking ever greater enlightenment and the magical power that accompanies it, you are at times tempted by questionable relics, morally suspect spells, and ancient artifacts. Your destiny remains yours to choose—will you be archmage or archfiend?

Immortality, of a Sort
Archmages are an idiosyncratic lot. There’s no telling what choices the preeminent wizard of the age will make when he has completed his destiny. The following section details a path several Archmages have walked, but your path might vary.

Arcane Seclusion: When you complete your final quest, you retreat from the world to give your full time and attention to the study of the ultimate arcane formula, the Demispell, whose hyperplanar existence encompasses all the lesser spells there ever were or ever will be.

To aid your study, you build a sanctum sanctorum. At your option, your retreat provides you complete seclusion, and thus could take the form of a tower lost somewhere in the Elemental Chaos. However, you might desire to retain a tie to the world, and thus build a sanctum with a connection to the world. In such a case, you might found a new order of mages for which you serve as the rarely seen High Wizard. Alternatively, you might found a school of magic, for which you serve as the rarely seen headmaster.

Regardless of your retreat’s physical form or temporal connection, your contemplation of the arcanosphere persists. As the years flow onward, your study of the fundamental, deep structure of the cosmos removes you from the normal flow of time. Eventually your material shell fades as you merge into the Demispell itself.

Thereafter, your name becomes tied to powerful spells and rituals used by lesser wizards.

Archmage Features
All Archmages have the following features.

Spell Recall (21st level): At the beginning of each day, choose one daily spell that you know (and have prepared today, if you prepare spells). You can use that spell two times that day, rather than only once.

Arcane Spirit (24th level): Once per day, when you die, you can detach your spirit from your body. In arcane spirit form, you heal to maximum hit points and gain the insubstantial and phasing qualities. You can cast encounter spells and at-will spells while in arcane spirit form, but you can’t cast daily spells, activate magic items, or perform rituals. If you die in arcane spirit form, you’re dead.

At the end of the encounter, after a short rest, your arcane spirit rejoins your body, if your body is still present. Your current hit point total is unchanged, but you no longer experience the other benefits and drawbacks of being in arcane spirit form.

If your body is missing, you will need other magic to return to life, but can continue adventuring in arcane spirit form if you like.

Archspell (30th level): Your comprehension of the ultimate arcane formula and of the spells that constitute it reaches a new threshold. Choose one daily spell that you know. You can now cast that spell as an encounter spell (rather than as a daily spell).

Archmage Power
Shape Magic
Archmage Utility 26
You reach into the ebb and flow of arcane energy and pluck a spell you have already used out of the invisible tide, instantly recalling it to memory.
Daily
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You regain one arcane power you have already used.[/sblock]


----------



## Dunamin (May 12, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> An earth titan hurls rocks at foes until they close to melee, at which point it pounds them with its stony fists, spending its action point to use *earth shock*. Unlike their hill giants cousins, earth titans stand their ground even when faced with a losing battle.



Looks like they made an error and forgot to include this power in the statblock. Which is a shame, because it sounds like the trademark "special" for the earth titan.

Hopefully, it will be corrected soon.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 12, 2008)

Hey, ENWorld's back!  Yay!

So there's a mention of an _earth shock_ ability in the earth titan's tactics text.  But it's not in the stat block.  Sigh...


----------



## Lenaianel (May 12, 2008)

Dunamin said:
			
		

> Looks like they made an error and forgot to include this power in the statblock. Which is a shame, because it sounds like the trademark "special" for the earth titan.
> 
> Hopefully, it will be corrected soon.




Earth Shock is on Earth titan DDMini card : 

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mi20080508a_etitancd.jpg

For RPG i think : encounter standard (recharge    )


----------



## DandD (May 12, 2008)

Yeah. I wondered about "Earth shock" too. Must be a mistake on some part of those who put the excerpt online... 

By the way, what's the code for putting text into a little spoiler box? My opening post is awfully big, and I would like to make it more reader-friendly, so that people only have to click one of the excerpts they like to read. :\


----------



## Blue (May 12, 2008)

*More interesting giants*

I'm rather uninspired by the giants.  The designers tout how they want things to be interesting, but the Hill Giant is humdrum.  It's got a ranged attack, a melee attack, and it can sweep people.  The last is at least a bit interesting.  PC strikers can surpass the damage it does fairly easily, and that was one thing about giants previously - they hit really hard so you had to watch out for them.  Take away that there hit hard even for their size and you don't have much left.  Will five of these really terrorize a 13th level party?  The only saving graces are the knockdown and the high speed.

I don't expect every monster to be a star, but if you're going to preview just a few, do the more interesting ones.


----------



## Cirex (May 12, 2008)

I'm a bit disappointed that they didn't show a list of the epic destinies with their prereqs, but well, we get to see what the standard will be : One "resurrection" power, one utility and two features.

EDIT:

Weird wording:


> Spell Recall (21st level): At the beginning of each day, choose one daily spell that you know (*and have prepared today, if you prepare spells*.). You can use that spell two times that day, rather than only once.




Sounds like 3.5 writing. Bold mine.


----------



## hong (May 12, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> Yeah. I wondered about "Earth shock" too. Must be a mistake on some part of those who put the excerpt online...
> 
> By the way, what's the code for putting text into a little spoiler box? My opening post is awfully big, and I would like to make it more reader-friendly, so that people only have to click one of the excerpts they like to read. :\



 [ spoiler ] DandD is a big POOPYHEAD [ /spoiler ]


----------



## theskyfullofdust (May 12, 2008)

I like the Hill Giant's sweeping attack, gives them flavour.

I wasn't too thrilled with the Epic Destiny bit, but that's just because it's a light preview. I presume that there'll be more in the core books (and more in later books).

And I really like the whole concept behind the giants, how they fit in with the mythology; they're just begging to be used in a final quest, when an old primoridal awakens to destroy the world with its army of giants, and all that stands in their way are a party of Epic heroes.

Looking forward to actually playing this game. Roll on June!


----------



## Derren (May 12, 2008)

The DDM Earth Shock
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mi20080508a_etitancd.jpg

And for my usual anti-4Eism:
Epic Destiny fluff highly situational and disruptive if the game is not build around the idea of epic quests, archmage arcane spirit not really fitting, other abilities bland.

Giants art lacks any noticeable reference object, those hill giants could also be human caveman. Abilities are average. Special point of interest: Rock Throw is different for two giants. Pros: Its simulationistic. Hill Giants rocks are small enough to be blocked, the larger Earth Titan rocks must be dodged. Cons: What if the target of the earth titan rock throw is large enough to be able to block the rocks too? Also two different mechanics with the same name is bad.
Tactics are again strange. either WotC omits informations from the statblock (why preview when you leave things out?) or has a very bad hand at writing tactics which meshes with the creature writeup.
Also I heard many people complaining about typos. Can someone comment on that? I as not native English speaker likely can't discover most of them.


----------



## DandD (May 12, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> [ spoiler ] DandD is a big POOPYHEAD [ /spoiler ]



No, not that, you fish. I mean another code, where your text is made compact, and where you have to click on a little button to see it. Not making it invisible.


----------



## hong (May 12, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> No, not that, you fish. I mean another code, where your text is made compact, and where you have to click on a little button to see it. Not making it invisible.



 Oh, sorry.

[ sblock ] DandD knows too much. Take him/her out. [ /sblock ]


----------



## Derren (May 12, 2008)

Edit: never mind

So I guess like with dragons each race of giants will have a different role? Earth Giants->Brutes, Fire Giants->Striker, etc.?


----------



## WhatGravitas (May 12, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> No, not that, you fish. I mean another code, where your text is made compact, and where you have to click on a little button to see it. Not making it invisible.



[ sblock=Some Title ] hong and DandD are big POOPYHEADs [ /sblock ] gives 
[sblock=Some Title] hong and DandD are big POOPYHEADs [/sblock]
Cheers, LT.


----------



## jaelis (May 12, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> No, not that, you fish. I mean another code, where your text is made compact, and where you have to click on a little button to see it. Not making it invisible.



Use [sblock] instead of


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

I was a bit underwhelmed by both articles.  

The epic destiny is... bland.  A few compound buzzwords from the index of a book on the Golden Dawn, or something.  I mean, really, Demispell and hyperplanar?  Sigh.  The abilities are just the progression I was expecting from the level progression, but not really particularly epic or amazing.  Shifting a daily to an encounter power?  Nice, but not all that exciting, particularly right before the character is retired with some generic form of 'immortality'.  The feel of the epic tier remains decidedly dull and lifeless- its just a continuation of what has gone before.  Which would actually be totally fine, but the devs seem to want to convince people that its something amazing.

The hill giant is a bit, sad really.  Struggling to match the damage output of a first level character.  The sweep is the only interesting thing, and its only usable once.  A gang of hill giants using it concert would be dangerous, but given their mental abilities, somewhat beyond them.

As far as the Titan goes... it isn't bad. The earthshock snafu is a bit amusing, but whatever. Its cemented an idea I've been toying with: I'm definitely going to drop the hit point and defensive benefits of the elite tag.  They can keep the AP and the extra abilities (elite creatures seem to have more options than normal critters)- that makes them interesting.  But the extra 130 hit points and marginally higher defenses do nothing to make combat with elites _interesting_.  They just drag the fight out into grindfests.  With a lower XP value, and less hit points, you can add in more monsters (or use them at lower levels) and avoid having combat devolve into the static exchange of hits and misses of previous editions.  A 256 hit point Earth 'titan' with a 29 AC is still a threat, but its a threat that Beowulf can be challenged by, not one that Beowulf, the Grey Mouser and Harry Potter beat on for a couple extra rounds in the most boring and unheroic fashion.


----------



## TerraDave (May 12, 2008)

Giants: at least they will be easy to run.


----------



## Wormwood (May 12, 2008)

Epic Destinies and 30th-level 'retirement' are incredibly cool.


----------



## DaveMage (May 12, 2008)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Epic Destinies and 30th-level 'retirement' are incredibly cool.




If by "cool" you mean "lame" then we are in complete agreement.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 12, 2008)

Lenaianel said:
			
		

> Earth Shock is on Earth titan DDMini card :
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mi20080508a_etitancd.jpg
> 
> For RPG i think : encounter standard (recharge    )




Wait a second...

That's great if it's on the mini statblock.  But I don't plan on buying minis, so how exactly does that help me?

Edit: I'm of course assuming that the stat blocks in the previews are identical to the ones appearing in the MM.  Maybe that isn't the case, but if it's not what's the point of these previews then?


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Wait a second...
> 
> That's great if it's on the mini statblock.  But I don't plan on buying minis, so how exactly does that help me?




It doesn't.  It was either left out of this article, or cut from the MM at the last minute (without cutting the flavor text.

Oops.


----------



## DandD (May 12, 2008)

Probably a mistake by the guys who posted the excerpt on the wizards-page. I just hope that's not going to happen in the actual Monster Manual.


----------



## Wormwood (May 12, 2008)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> If by "cool" you mean "lame" then we are in complete agreement.



How cool.


----------



## hong (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> I was a bit underwhelmed by both articles.




Quelle surprise.



> As far as the Titan goes... it isn't bad. The earthshock snafu is a bit amusing, but whatever. Its cemented an idea I've been toying with: I'm definitely going to drop the hit point and defensive benefits of the elite tag.  They can keep the AP and the extra abilities (elite creatures seem to have more options than normal critters)- that makes them interesting.  But the extra 130 hit points and marginally higher defenses do nothing to make combat with elites _interesting_.  They just drag the fight out into grindfests.  With a lower XP value, and less hit points, you can add in more monsters (or use them at lower levels) and avoid having combat devolve into the static exchange of hits and misses of previous editions.  A 256 hit point Earth 'titan' with a 29 AC is still a threat, but its a threat that Beowulf can be challenged by, not one that Beowulf, the Grey Mouser and Harry Potter beat on for a couple extra rounds in the most boring and unheroic fashion.




Psst. D&D. Multiple players.


----------



## Torchlyte (May 12, 2008)

Hilarious.

Earth Shock is a classic Shaman spell from WoW.


----------



## UngeheuerLich (May 12, 2008)

I also got the impression that hill giants are a bit weak... 21 Strength for a giant? but then IIRC, hill giants were always the weakes of them...

Maybe making giants elite would be more interesting... right now it seems they are beatable by a group of Level 1 characters...

their most dangerous ability seems to be that rock throwing thing... (it does more damage than the great club)

edit: and once again an oversight... they should really be more carefull now... 

errors in the core books are the most annoying thing i can imagine... its not like a PC game, which can be easily patched...


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> Probably a mistake by the guys who posted the excerpt on the wizards-page. I just hope that's not going to happen in the actual Monster Manual.




The problem is, they would actually have to go inside the text block and edit that to remove it.   If it was the stat line, I could see how it could drop off, but that would be from the middle of the block.    My money is on cut, but they forgot to alter the tactics.

Its still a pretty frightening brute.  With the AP, 4 x 2d10+6 isn't something you can ignore.  The average character is going to be bloodied at least if all those attacks hit.


----------



## Ginnel (May 12, 2008)

Cirex said:
			
		

> I'm a bit disappointed that they didn't show a list of the epic destinies with their prereqs, but well, we get to see what the standard will be : One "resurrection" power, one utility and two features.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...




I believe in the wizard's character sheet it suggested a spellbook allowed him/her to have access to two daily spells but he/she was only allowed to memorize one for each day

I find it hard to believe the Earth Giants weren't just a snippet and therefore not the whole finished article. Although I also nitpicked the fact they were called Earth Giants one was called a Hill Giant and the other an Earth Titan, either call them Earth Giant and Earth Titan or Hill Giant and Earth Giant would make me happy anyway 

- - - - - - - - -
http://xkcd.com/386/


----------



## DandD (May 12, 2008)

What surprises me is that Earth Titans only have a strenght of 23. Quite low for a creature that is huge...


----------



## DaveMage (May 12, 2008)

So, after you finish your epic quest, you're done with the game as a single player.

But, you can still go on a *R*andom *A*wesome *I*ndividual *D*emiplane.

Neat!

Where do they come up with these ideas?


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> What surprises me is that Earth Titans only have a strenght of 23. Quite low for a creature that is huge...




It does seem low.  I understand why, but the paradigm shift is significant.  Apparently your warrior-type characters are supposed to really wrestle giants and win.  Since you can have a character with a 23 strength at 12th level and a 24 at 16th, you really can.

In some ways its a nice change from the stupidly large numbers in 3e to keep things 'realistic', despite the huge effect they had on the math.  Its rather interesting to compare the two stat-blocks.  A first edition stat block would add something as well.  The 4e giant has more hit points, and has a much better defense against non-fort spells.  Still not great, but a wizard won't have a 75% chance of charming one anymore.


----------



## TheLordWinter (May 12, 2008)

So on the subject of the epic destiny, I feel like I've read that somewhere before... I got almost a "strange" feeling from it. Perhaps I should see a "Doctor." A "Strange Doctor." Almost, perhaps, a "Doctor Strange" as it were.

That was subtle in the utmost.

As for the giants, there is a point of reference in the picture. Note that the hill giants are standing astride a fence, likely of approximately four feet in height (based upon a vague knowledge of fence heights) so I'd say the hill giants are looking to be about twenty feet tall, and the earth titan is probably thirty to forty, based on how much taller he is than them.

I really hope Earth Shock is left in, without it this brute doesn't have much going for him. I like giants increasing in size (I always felt D&D giants, particularly those who topped out at ten feet, were really not all that giant) but I just don't feel like these guys are doing much more than their 3.5 counterparts. A hill giant certainly couldn't do something interesting and unique each round for five rounds. 

Hopefully we'll see some more entries which really spice up the giants in the actual Monsterous Manual, maybe a Hill Giant Shaman who grants them a different ability set, ala the Gnollish Demonic Scourge.


----------



## Satori5000 (May 12, 2008)

I see no problem with the epic destinies.  Even if after the books come out and you still dont like the destinies presented, 4e seems like such an easy system to understand, it wouldnt be hard to sit down with your DM and come up with one of your own.  And if you like the destinies, but not the flavor text, change it.  Its just flavor text, you can change that to fit your campaigns or ideas.


----------



## That One Guy (May 12, 2008)

The archmage was... meh? One of my old players from 3.x would've loved that epic destiny... it's essentially what he wanted in and out of character. But, I personally liked the 3.5 epic destinies listed in that DDI article. They seemed more... universal. If there are focused ones like archmage... okay... whatever... but I hope there are awesomely widely applicable epic destinies (I originally wrote awesomely widely applicable EDs... but... it just sounds wrong). 

I didn't read the giants article. Perhaps later... although with reading most people's posts, maybe not.

(I'm glad enworld's back. Good times)


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

Satori5000 said:
			
		

> I see no problem with the epic destinies.  Even if after the books come out and you still dont like the destinies presented, 4e seems like such an easy system to understand, it wouldnt be hard to sit down with your DM and come up with one of your own.  And if you like the destinies, but not the flavor text, change it.  Its just flavor text, you can change that to fit your campaigns or ideas.




It just seems unnecessary.  The abilities are nice, and are logical conclusions to the power progression, but the [booming voice]DESTINY QUEST[/booming voice] and 'immortality' bits are more than a little campy.  They don't really add anything to what should be an exciting concluding arc to the campaign in its own right.  Yes, yes, your last quest is amazingly 'epic' and important and at the end you retire the characters and do something else...  but I'm not struck with any real need to inject this level of Bad Fantasy Stereotypes directly into the mechanics or a campaign.

'Course, I mostly blame them for using 'epic' in the first place.  Movies ads and videogames have applied it to pretty much everything that has been released in the last decade, making it essentially meaningless. Particularly since they're using it in the modern sense, and not the classic literary sense.


----------



## Dragonblade (May 12, 2008)

Finally we come to a couple of things in 4e that I actually dislike. Giants and Titans should have really high Strength scores. A 23 is too low. They should 30 or more. And since attacks and defences can be divorced from stats with 4e monster design, I don't see the problem with this.

This is one of the same issues I had back in 2e with STR 25. A Storm Giant in 2e wasn't even strong enough to do a pull up. The strength for such massive creatures should be much higher. I'm not much of a simulationist, but this is one of those areas where I will give a nod to simulationism.

My other issue is with Epic Destinies. Mechanically they have really toned everything down. I mean the projection of your spirit when you die is really cool and I like the fact that at epic, the game doesn't take such an exponential jump like the power curve did in prior editions.

However, I don't like the enforced ending. One of the things I actually did like about 3rd editions epic levels was the open ended advancement. I think one of the first house rules I come up with for 4e, is a way to reconfigure the retraining rules so that even 30th level PCs can be played and still experience some kind of mechanical character growth or change over time.

I also think there is a disconnect between the fluff and the mechanics. Other than the cool epic power, I don't feel there is a really big difference between a 30th level PC and a 20th level PC. For all the talk about departing the mortal realm, I expected the characters to be a bit more godlike. I actually prefer that PCs are not godlike, but still, the fluff doesn't fit.


----------



## malcolm_n (May 12, 2008)

I was awefully surprised that archmage was an epic destiny and not a paragon path.  I guess an archmage is on par with a demigod...

That being the case, I wonder which other seemingly nonepic epic destinies we'll see.  As long as a sorcerer can be a dragon disciple and eventually become a real dragon, I'm good.  


			
				dragonblade said:
			
		

> some stuff



I agree with you moderately here.  Just to kinda put it out there, I'm considering letting 30th level characters obtain additional power options and similar like "Ability points" in FFXI.  When you reach the end cap, you can buy bonus things, you get one point every time you earn the same experience you would have from 25th to 26th level (ballpark figure here).  You can buy a new at-will/skill with 1, encounter/ability point/feat with 2, daily with 3, and class feature with 4.  
Bare in mind you'd still need the prereqs for any paragon path or epic destiny powers you purchase.

In the end, it would give your character unending supply of power choices and of course break the game, but that's what the original epic rules did, so cheers to you for having an additional 6 encounter powers.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (May 12, 2008)

Cautiously happy about the Epic Destinies - in terms of worrying about whether or not you like them, how many campaigns actually went to 30th and beyond in 3e anyway? I can imagine that many campaigns will simply never need those rules.


----------



## Jer (May 12, 2008)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> So, after you finish your epic quest, you're done with the game as a single player.
> 
> But, you can still go on a *R*andom *A*wesome *I*ndividual *D*emiplane.
> 
> ...




From the D&D Master Set - published in 1984 I think.

Seriously - this entire entry on Epic Destinies completely brought back memories of reading through the "Immortality Paths" section of the Master Set when I was a wee bairn.  Back then there were only 4 of them, they were tightly structured, and the only new powers you got were from whatever artifacts were built into your particular path, but the flavor of the Immortality Paths is all right there in that epic destinies excerpt - including the suggestion that once you're done your character exits the "mortal plane" in some manner and is retired but that if the rest of your group wasn't done with their Path yet you would stick around in a "mortal" form until they were finished before going off to your reward.

Yet another notch that makes me think that the folks involved in this edition have a lot of love for the BECMI boxed sets - which I count as a good thing.  Stuff like this makes me want to own these books...


----------



## The B# (May 12, 2008)

It looks like hill giants make better artillery than brutes. The sweep is also disappointing because it's an encounter power. It would be far more potent if it could recharge.

Honestly, this really could be taken by a party of lvl 1 pcs. The young black dragon packs way more of a punch as a lvl 4 solo (though, to be fair that is worth a _whopping _75 more xp)


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 12, 2008)

I like it, while they should have chosen something other then the Archmage, it shows the principle is sound. I like too that the "Immortality" is not as "game-breaking" as some believed.

I would have liked to have seen some Epic-Tier Powers though.

Also for those who don't like it, I don't think it will be at all unbalancing to simply not use them, given this:







> If you don’t choose an epic destiny at 21st level, you can choose one at any level thereafter. You retroactively gain all benefits of the epic destiny appropriate to your current level.



This to me says well if you don't have to pick one at level 21 then obviously the game is still balanced without in the 21 + levels, so you may not need it at all.


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Finally we come to a couple of things in 4e that I actually dislike. Giants and Titans should have really high Strength scores. A 23 is too low. They should 30 or more. And since attacks and defences can be divorced from stats with 4e monster design, I don't see the problem with this.




They can?  They haven't been, in any of the monster previews we've seen.  Damage is based directly on the strength score, and has been factored into attacks.  Defenses are also reflective of the monsters stats, with a few unknown numbers as well.


----------



## AntiStateQuixote (May 12, 2008)

Thus far I have been extremely enthusiastic and excited about nearly everything that I have seen for 4th edition D&D.  If I posted more often people would almost certainly put me in the 4e apologist camp.

Today's excerpts are the first to truly disappoint me.

The Epic Destiny mechanic sounded like it was going to be something interesting and new.  I was looking forward to a new mechanic that helped transition a campaign through the "end game" with flavor and story.  Instead it looks like characters just get more kewl powers after 21st level and some generic "now you're immortal" storyline crap when they reach 30th level.  It's freaking lame.  Here's hoping that other Epic Destinies are more evocative and compelling.

The earth giant entry did exactly the opposite of what the designers claimed as the design goals for giants.  The hill giant is exactly what they said giants shouldn't be: a big person that throws rocks and hits people with a club.  There is zero elemental flavor and/or mechanics to make a hill giant different from any other big person that hits people with a club.

The earth titan is even worse because I really expected special things from the titans.  Again, it's just a bigger person that can throw rocks and hit people with a club.  Oh, but it's elite so it's got more hp, better defenses and an action point.  Boring.  I will assume that the earth titan still has the earth shock ability else there is nothing that differentiates the titan from the giant.  Even so a single elemental ability for a titan seems lame.  Titans are the first creatures created in the forgotten depths of time by the Primordials in the heaving crush of the Elemental Chaos!  They should seethe with elemental power and have a least two or three abilities related to the appropriate element or elements for their type.

Anyhow, my enthusiasm for 4e is not dampened . . . yet.  I'm still looking forward to a new campaign with kewl powers and wild action.  Wizards, don't preview anymore boring crap, please!


----------



## keterys (May 12, 2008)

I'm honestly wondering if they thought this one through... if they'd shown the fire giant / titan and the eternal hero, that would have been far more exciting.

At any rate, the hill giant is fine for what I want it to do. I'd rather the titan did one big attack with a push than 2 attacks, and I will admit that I immediately thought 'It should have an earthquake' power when I glanced at its stats, so the fact that it sorta does (earth shock), just not pictured, is at least slightly more reassuring.


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

Heh...They picked the worst giant to preview...

While reading the article, I started salivating as they highlighted everything I thought was wrong with giants. They made them more tied to their mythological roots (WIN), they recognized the problem of similarity between the giants (WIN again) and highlighted some of the later MM giants that I thought were cool (all types of WIN)

Then they previewed the HILL GIANT...Oh, WOTC, how could you tease me so!!!

As for the EPIC destinies, between this and thr 3.5 article, I think someone at WOTC has all types of love for BECM (two thumbs up for that person as the BECM Immortal rules simply blew away 3.5 EPIC's system.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2008)

My take?

*Giants*: Not too shabby. The fluff passes muster, the mechanics work for their Intended Purpose, and these guys obviously get along in the world at large, and don't purely exist to be grist for the XP mill. The earth shock omission is...well, just one of many. 

*Epic Destinies*: I'm diggin' it. I like that it shows that the designers are paying a lot of attention to how the game is paced, and that it wants to give the DM advice for actually making Epic feel Epic (the destiny quest and whatnot). The abilities are nice toppers, and the fluff is just fine enough to give newbie DMs some jazzin' inspiration. There's nothing as immensely game-breaking as the preamble text would have me believe, but they're nice things that no other character of a lower level could ever be capable of doing, which is nifty.

Really, I'm mostly excited by what is hinted at in the Epic Destiny text as DM advice. It's about friggin' time the DMG paid attention to what actually happens at the table for once.


----------



## Dragonblade (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> They can?  They haven't been, in any of the monster previews we've seen.  Damage is based directly on the strength score, and has been factored into attacks.  Defenses are also reflective of the monsters stats, with a few unknown numbers as well.




True. So instead of having giants do damage of 2d10 + 5 with STR 21 (or whatever it was), they do 2d6 +10 and have STR 30. Your avg. damage output is similar enough that it works without being broken, but now you have a giant with a more believeable STR score.


----------



## malraux (May 12, 2008)

Brent_Nall said:
			
		

> The Epic Destiny mechanic sounded like it was going to be something interesting and new.  I was looking forward to a new mechanic that helped transition a campaign through the "end game" with flavor and story.  Instead it looks like characters just get more kewl powers after 21st level and some generic "now you're immortal" storyline crap when they reach 30th level.  It's freaking lame.  Here's hoping that other Epic Destinies are more evocative and compelling.



I really got the sense that the epic destinies are something that the player and DM should work together to figure out the details.  The base fluff is an example of what it could mean, not a limitation.  The powers, since they affect the game mechanics, shouldn't be unstoppable abilities, just stuff that's really really good.  It also sounds like the epic destinies are also discussed in the DMG, so I'd imagine there's a bit about building different destinies there.


----------



## nothing to see here (May 12, 2008)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> However, I don't like the enforced ending. One of the things I actually did like about 3rd editions epic levels was the open ended advancement. I think one of the first house rules I come up with for 4e, is a way to reconfigure the retraining rules so that even 30th level PCs can be played and still experience some kind of mechanical character growth or change over time.




I think what you are highlighting as a flaw is, in fact a feature.  One of the key rule considerations in the development of 43 was to extend that mathematical "sweet spot" at all levels of play.  Perpetually open-ended advancement will probably stretch, if not outright break, the mathematical underpinings of this swee spot -- particularly if the only random variance in the rules is the ubiquitous d20 check.  I stand to be corrected on this point by people with greater math mojo.

But, from where I stand, by closing the loop at 30 -- the designers can say that every level of the game is playable with the same sweet spot and this adds, more than it subtracts from the game.

I like having an "upper anchor" for power level as well as it provides a frame of reference for everything in the game.  The 3e Epic Handbook suffered from a tacked on feel that forced you to rethink every other aspect of the game.  The most powerful things in the world should be the most powerful things in the world -- constantly retconning a campaign to include even larger and larger threats, only hurts the overall suspension of disbelief.  Internal thematic consistency is not as big a deal as the numbers, but it does matter to me.

This ultimately is a playstyle issue -- the new rules encourage arcs that can last for years and years of play time -- but arcs with a beginning and end nonetheless.  I personally like the idea of an 'end',  however distant , as focussing mechanism for the actual gameplay.   If, as a matter of taste, you favour a completely open-ended playstyle where the same groupd adventures in perpetuity than you do have a legitimate beef.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> It doesn't.  It was either left out of this article, or cut from the MM at the last minute (without cutting the flavor text.
> 
> Oops.




Seems to me that an ability like "earth shock" would be appropriate for something called an earth titan.  The ability from the stat card seems pretty appropriate for a 16th level elite brute to me.  I can't imagine why they cut it.  If I find incomplete statblocks in my monster manual, and am then expected to complete those statblocks by purchasing miniatures, then the three core books will be my first and last purchase for 4e.  I don't believe that will be the case, but this kind of editorial error makes me wary.

Frankly, I don't think thoroughly-edited copy is too much to ask from WotC, but this has been a significant problem with their books for past few years.  I'm going to assume the best, that this is simply an error in the article and not the book itself.  But that may be a poor assumption on my part.


----------



## Cadfan (May 12, 2008)

I'm fine with the epic destinies.

They're a good idea, but WOTC has to tread a fine line with them.

Remember how originally prestige classes represented organizations and in game groups, so you could only join a PRC if your DM explicitly set it up so that you could roleplay your entrance into it?

That rule, had it remained enforced, created problems.  Players felt they had the right to create the character they wanted, but doing so required the DM to alter the campaign's storyline to fit in elements the player needed for their PRC.

Fortunately, this was never a problem for most campaigns because that rule was happily ignored.

Now, epic destinies seem at risk of creating the same problem.  They represent mechanically things that are happening in game.  If epic destinies are highly evocative, they'll also run the risk of being too specific to fit into most campaigns.

Imagine that you're a DM, and you have 4 players.  One wants to transcend mortality and become a deity.  One wants to die, party in valhalla, and rise again as a major player during the final battle of the apocalypse.  Another wants to attain immortality of reputation by establishing an earthly dynasty capable of lasting thousands of years.  And another wants to achieve lichdom.

Now suddenly you need to write all of those into your game at one time, and STILL have enough time to handle your main plotlines.

That's a bit challenging.  And its also why I think the basic epic destinies are going to be a little bit generic.  "Wizard who masters the arcane completely, then retreats from the world" isn't very hard to work into a campaign.  Its certainly no tougher than "retires to raise grandchildren."

So... I expect we'll see some flashy epic destinies.  I just expect the initial layout of epic destinies to be a little bit generic, or at least to contain a certain number of generic options.

All in all, I like them though.  Just may be challenging as a DM when I have to juggle the needs of the ascendant deity with the dragonlord.


----------



## Knight Otu (May 12, 2008)

"I'm so powerful, I can meteor shower you twice! Maybe even three times... do you want to take the chances?"

I know it's my 3.X mind talking, but having a PBP character that, along with others, has been on the receiving end of a few tons of delayed blast fireballs... that sounds underwhelming.

Leaving out a power/leaving in a reference to a cut power? Horrible.

The Strength of the Earth Titan really is far too low compared to the hill giant. So it's much closer to Elemental Earth, much bigger, and... a lil' bit stronger?!

The text makes it clear that the two aren't the only kinds of Earth Giants walking about. Presumably stone giants and mountain giants (mountain titans?) are among them some fashion. Goliaths, too? I'm wondering if desert giants like sun and sand Giants belong there, among fire giants, or their own group?


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (May 12, 2008)

I'm in agreement about the fluff/crunch disconnect in the Archmage.  The Arcane Spirit meets it, but I'm not seeing how recall of a Daily spell at 21st level or the shift of a Daily spell to an Encounter spell at 30th level constitutes "bending the laws of the universe."  I guess Daily spells only being cast once is a Universal Law - what an odd Universe that it should care about things like that.  

Neither of these previews did much for me.


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> True. So instead of having giants do damage of 2d10 + 5 with STR 21 (or whatever it was), they do 2d6 +10 and have STR 30. Your avg. damage output is similar enough that it works without being broken, but now you have a giant with a more believeable STR score.




I think Voss is right though...At the Epic tier, a fighter barehanded should be able to slap around a hill giant SANS magic. This is Beowulf, Heracles territory and they certainly could do it and that's what high Paragon/Epic tier is modelling.

Putting Giant stats at a STR of 30 and above means that's impossible.


----------



## Andur (May 12, 2008)

Methinks Derren is begining to fail his Will saves...  

Random points:

Nobody is forcing anyone to go into Epic Levels, DM can make a campaign for any single tier, or combination of tiers.  I know some folks will shudder at the thought, but I can see many a "low magic, low fantasy" campaign only doing Heroic tier advancement.

Epic Destinies:  I don't think the DMG will be able to make a "single" epic destiny quest which will cover all the PC needs.  It's one of those sounds good in theory, but sucks in application concepts...

Giants:  I am hoping that Hill Giant and Earth Titan are not the only two "types" of Earth Giant.  Though a sub-type like Earth can be Brute heavy and maybe Controller devoid, they should still have artillery, lurker, skirmisher, soldier, etc. NPC roles filled out.  Turning them into one trick ponies and then specifically stating that they "don't play well with others" is both self defeating and lame.  "Oh earth giants, slow them, range attack them, and throw up a "protection from boulders" barrier..."  

Exerpts:  Small sampling of a larger piece of work, often incomplete...

Carry on...


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> Now suddenly you need to write all of those into your game at one time, and STILL have enough time to handle your main plotlines.
> 
> That's a bit challenging.




For me, this is the mojo for my Improv Engine.

One wants to die and go to Valhalla?
One wants to be a lich?
One wants to sire a lineage?

Save the princess that will become your bride from a necromancer (whom you can then steal the secrets of) requiring the heroic sacrifice of yourself in combat (so that you are assured a seat in Valhalla).

Everyone Wins, and I have a new villain, a new princess/kingdom, and a new "heroic sacrifice" mechanic to work out. I'm a happy DM!


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I'm in agreement about the fluff/crunch disconnect in the Archmage.  The Arcane Spirit meets it, but I'm not seeing how recall of a Daily spell at 21st level or the shift of a Daily spell to an Encounter spell at 30th level constitutes "bending the laws of the universe."  I guess Daily spells only being cast once is a Universal Law - what an odd Universe that it should care about things like that.
> 
> Neither of these previews did much for me.




Actually, I loved the 30th level ability...One of the things I hated about 3.5 EPIC was that it many of the effects/spells were just "bigger" versions/numbers of a lower level spell. Basically a case of bigger numbers

Here though...Can you imagine what it would look like to a non-30th level wizard when he sees an Archmage simply cast Meteor Swarm every 5 minutes without fail. The non-Epic wizard can only do this a few times per day but the Epic Archmage could literally do this for infinitity....

The stdents at the Archmage's school are going to be stunned and should be in awe.


----------



## Derren (May 12, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> For me, this is the mojo for my Improv Engine.
> 
> One wants to die and go to Valhalla?
> One wants to be a lich?
> ...




Wow, you must do a epic quest in order to marry and have children...
The population of your worlds must be very low.


----------



## TerraDave (May 12, 2008)

Jer said:
			
		

> From the D&D Master Set - published in 1984 I think.




Like I've said: feels like retro.


----------



## DylanCB (May 12, 2008)

I'm not understanding the complaints about Epic Destinies. Im not sure how an ability that says once per day, when you die, turn into a cloud of wizardness is boring. Casting multiple daily spells is not boring, considering what kind of power a wizard of that level has. Turning a high level daily into an encounter power seems powerful and fun.

Fluffwise, its what I'd expect of an Archmage, retreating into the aether to do interesting things. The excerpt specifically said that Archmages are not limited to that anyway. This seems great if you want your own destiny.

I get not liking ending the game, but thats not exactly hard to circumvent. Once you playing past 30, you can make up whatever yo want. Finding monsters would be hard, though.


----------



## Gort (May 12, 2008)

I love the idea of epic destinies, but that one really leaves me cold.

"You build a tower somewhere and never leave it. Good game."

I'm hoping some of the other ones are better - I was hoping for stuff like "How to become a god" - stuff we couldn't do before. It's not like it was particularly tough to do "Your wizard starts a wizarding school" with the rules we had before.


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

TerraDave said:
			
		

> Like I've said: feels like retro.




Er, no. That's not what you implied earlier. You immedieately thought it was WoW even though many of us think Epic Destinies were scribbled straight from the Immortal boxed set.


----------



## DandD (May 12, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Wow, you must do a epic quest in order to marry and have children...
> The population of your worlds must be very low.



 She's a divine princess from the Astral Sea, and the necromancer is the archlich-son of Orcus. And the final battle takes place on the wastes of Megido, a legendary dessert on the world where it is said that the gods and the primordials clashed upon each another in the last days of the creation wars. 

All you need is a little bit imagination.


----------



## Knight Otu (May 12, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> Er, no. That's not what you implied earlier. You immedieately thought it was WoW even though many of us think Epic Destinies were scribbled straight from the Immortal boxed set.



Are you mixing up your Daves there?


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Wow, you must do a epic quest in order to marry and have children...




Nah, read it again.

Epic quest to save a princess from a necromancer (who might already be a lich due to the aforementioned secrets) that requires someone to die.

"We have known for many years of Al'grazzar and his need for the Blood of the Royals to cement his unholy immortality. The lineage of Princess Phedra has long been blessed with the everlasting watchful eye of the gods. But what can we do? Al'grazzar is also blessed with that watchful eye, and it is written that anyone who faces him in combat will have their soul rent from their body by the sheer force of his evil magic wards."

But the PC's have saught out Knowledgeable Sage #37, who is more aware of these wards!

"Indeed, the first person to face Al'grazzar will be inevitably killed by these wards. This death comes gradually, over several minutes. And triggering this death will also strip the wards away, leaving him vulnerable. If one was to sacrifice themselves, for a few moments, Al'grazzar would be vulnerable."

And the PC's now know what they must do...


----------



## Sojorn (May 12, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Nah, read it again.
> 
> Epic quest to save a princess from a necromancer (who might already be a lich due to the aforementioned secrets) that requires someone to die.
> 
> ...



"Surely no one would be self-sacrificing enough to destroy my wards!"

*self-sacrificed!*

"NOOOOOOO! Done in by judging others by my own standards!"


----------



## Derren (May 12, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> And the PC's now know what they must do...




Grab a random kobold and toss him in first so that he dies and strips the wards away?


----------



## Slander (May 12, 2008)

n/m


----------



## Logan_Bonner (May 12, 2008)

_Earth shock_ is in the _Monster Manual_ stat block, and Bart's fixing the omission in the preview.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2008)

> "Surely no one would be self-sacrificing enough to destroy my wards!"
> 
> *self-sacrificed!*
> 
> "NOOOOOOO! Done in by judging others by my own standards!"




Hehehe, yup, classic Villain move.

And the sacrificer is rewarded in Valhalla (and is chosen amongst the elect to come back at Ragnarok for his noble sacrifice), the anti-hero gains access to the Lich's secret (perhaps the next party now has a villain! ), and the guy who wants a lineage gets a special blessed bloodline to make babies with (perhaps the next party has a new history for their PCs!).

I like it when a game ends with a sense of _awesome_.


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Are you mixing up your Daves there?




I think I am...Apologies to TerraDave. I was thinking of another Dave.


----------



## Knight Otu (May 12, 2008)

Slander said:
			
		

> ...



I think you want this article. You're quoting from the 3.5 article.



			
				WotC_Logan said:
			
		

> _Earth shock_ is in the _Monster Manual_ stat block, and Bart's fixing the omission in the preview.



Thanks for the info!


----------



## Waneta (May 12, 2008)

Torchlyte said:
			
		

> Hilarious.
> 
> Earth Shock is a classic Shaman spell from WoW.




Now we know why they aren't including frost giants.  'Cause then they would have Frost Shock and the session would never end with the wow players continually going "Frost Shooooock!!!"


----------



## Gargazon (May 12, 2008)

Slander said:
			
		

> I liked the Epic Destinies article. It is a big jump from the previous tier w/o going to ridiculous levels. But there were also a lot of nice bits of info buried within:
> 
> * There is a section in the DMG on how artifacts can have an impact on character creation incarnation
> 
> ...




Um.... that's the 3.5 article for implementing Epic Destinies in your 3.5 game.

Also, hooray for the MM not having an monster ability missing!


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Grab a random kobold and toss him in first so that he dies and strips the wards away?




Sure, if one of their expressly stated character goals wasn't to die gloriously and live a happy afterlife in Valhalla. 

Such a character would be LOOKING for an out like this!

If their epic goal was to kill a random kobold, then that would probably satisfy them...though that sounds like a player that I'd have a bit of a talk to about what "epic" meant.


----------



## Swedge (May 12, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Grab a random kobold and toss him in first so that he dies and strips the wards away?




Are you just in this thread to shoot down other peoples ideas?  The only posts i've seen from you are just that.  Please try to contribute something constructive instead.


----------



## Slander (May 12, 2008)

Well damn, after mistaking the 3.5 Epic article for the 4E one, the actual 4E article was kind of a let down. If the actual implementation is something along the line of the 3.5 article, I'll be happy with the Epic tier. I'd actually be willing to play in it for once. But the actual content of the 4E article was far less inspiring than the 3.5 article.


----------



## Andor (May 12, 2008)

First impression of the Giants article: I like the new fluff, though the need to bad mouth earlier editions is just pathetic. Titans have always been awesome remnents of a legendary past when they helped shape the world.

The crunch that follows is underwhelming however. Big orc that can throw rocks does not scream 'ancient elemental force of creation and destruction.'


----------



## Zil (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> It does seem low.  I understand why, but the paradigm shift is significant.  Apparently your warrior-type characters are supposed to really wrestle giants and win.  Since you can have a character with a 23 strength at 12th level and a 24 at 16th, you really can.



Erg, really?  What is this game now?  Some kind of form of Xena Warrior Princess where the characters are practically godlings/demigods (or at least on a level where they can wrestle with a titan and win).   



> In some ways its a nice change from the stupidly large numbers in 3e to keep things 'realistic', despite the huge effect they had on the math.  Its rather interesting to compare the two stat-blocks.  A first edition stat block would add something as well.  The 4e giant has more hit points, and has a much better defense against non-fort spells.  Still not great, but a wizard won't have a 75% chance of charming one anymore.



What stupidly large numbers in 3E?  Strength modifiers for huge creatures?  Or am I missing anything.

As for the charm, yea, that's always been an issue in 3E going both ways.  There's always one person in every adventuring group it seems who tanks their wisdom and ends up being charm bait somewhere down the road.   I always liked the idea that it was easier to charm big stupid brutes though.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

Things that surprised me: Hill Giants/Earth Titans Alignment: *Chaotic Evil*. Arcane spirit. *Wow* - now THAT feels Epic. 

Giants: I agree that their stats are very underwhelming. I expected a little more... giant. I expect the Earth Titan to be kicking PCs around (literally), or picking them up and wielding them like a club against his party members. A fight with an Earth Titan should feel like a _Shadow of the Colossus_ fight. 

Epic Destinies: Totally not digging the "You buy a tower and retire." Also the "Forced retirement." Granted, I likely won't play a game all the way to 30th level, but still.


----------



## AntiStateQuixote (May 12, 2008)

DylanCB said:
			
		

> I'm not understanding the complaints about Epic Destinies. Im not sure how an ability that says once per day, when you die . . .



OK, I have to admit that the phrase "once per day, when you die" amuses me to no end.  Also, the ability to become an insubstantial puff of wizardly blastiness is fun.  However, the cast a selected daily spell twice per day instead of once, and the use a daily power as an encounter power abilities are boring.  Give me something new and different that makes me say, "Wow!  This archmage stuff is badass!"

Anyhow, I won't bitch too much until I see it all.  Maybe the other epic destinies are better (that's the official, as defined by Brent, better as opposed to the generic, non-specific better that lesser beings sometimes use), and maybe there are good guidelines for creating alternative epic destinies specific to your PCs and campaign.

I'll will wait patiently and optimistically for my books to arrive from Amazon.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Erg, really?  What is this game now?  Some kind of form of Xena Warrior Princess where the characters are practically godlings/demigods (or at least on a level where they can wrestle with a titan and win).



When you're 21+ level, you're no longer a farmboy who picked up a sword. You _are_ practically a godling by this point.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2008)

Brent Nail said:
			
		

> OK, I have to admit that the phrase "once per day, when you die" amuses me to no end. Also, the ability to become an insubstantial puff of wizardly blastiness is fun. However, the cast a selected daily spell twice per day instead of once, and the use a daily power as an encounter power abilities are boring. Give me something new and different that makes me say, "Wow! This archmage stuff is badass!"




This is a valid point, but this isn't the first time that WotC has shown a deep lack of imagination, and I'm sure it won't be the last.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

What's funny is that, comparing the Orc entry to the Hill Giant entry... there's no contest: orcs are far more interesting.

Orcs all have abilities that say "THIS IS AN ORC" and "It'S DIFFERENT from every other humanoid." It really drives home ORC ORC ORC.

Hill giant: "I hit you. I can throw a rock. Once, I can knock two people down!" Just as unsubtle as the orc, but it doesn't really say "Giant", to me.

It's not _interesting_. Not like the Orc entry, to say the least.


----------



## Cadfan (May 12, 2008)

Swedge said:
			
		

> Are you just in this thread to shoot down other peoples ideas?  The only posts i've seen from you are just that.  Please try to contribute something constructive instead.



Not thread, forum.


----------



## Zil (May 12, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> Heh...They picked the worst giant to preview...
> 
> While reading the article, I started salivating as they highlighted everything I thought was wrong with giants. They made them more tied to their mythological roots (WIN), they recognized the problem of similarity between the giants (WIN again) and highlighted some of the later MM giants that I thought were cool (all types of WIN)



Mythological roots?  You mean back to Norse and Greek mythology?  Oh wait, that's all gone now with the destruction of the Great Wheel.    Or perhaps something like the story of "Jack the Giant Killer"?  Hmn, wait, I don't think Jack was forced to deal with elemental beings.  No, whatever these things are, they aren't going back to any recognizable mythological roots so far as what I can see.  They don't even go back to D&D's roots because they jettisoned all that came before.


----------



## Andor (May 12, 2008)

Epic Destiny impression: Cast a daily spell twice? Really? That's the preemminent Wizard of his era? That's Elminster and Raistlin? That's the power that lets me challange the gods themselves? 

I think I'd sooner have an artifact level whoopie cushion. :\


----------



## OchreJelly (May 12, 2008)

Giants are… I had this thought rolling around in my head that all giants would be elite and titans would be solo.  Expectation meets reality: Adjustments commencing…

Ok that’s better, but it's still a bit meh-tastic.  The giant levels here really surprised me.  I just wonder how much of a step up they will be from ogres / trolls – i.e. other big bruisers.  I guess this was probably intentional so they can be mixed into encounters more.


----------



## Korgoth (May 12, 2008)

I thought the Giants excerpt was reasonable.  The Primordials stuff is interesting.  As far as Giant powers... are they supposed to be known for their subtlety?

Epic Destinies remind me of BECMI.  I like closing the progression at 30 and saying: here are the mechanical conditions for transcending the game world _and_ the game.  Your character is complete at this point.  I also like that the Epic powers are not totally outrageous.  Assuming that they are balanced against the other powers in the game, they don't need to be.  Just the power of coming back to life in the Archmage path is a big one... especially if the DM is stingy with the Resurrection Ritual (and/or it contains at least one impossible material component, like the tears of a golem or something).  Anyway, the powers seem more flavorful and less of the "Do infinity damage to infinity targets as a free action".  Which is a good thing.



			
				WotC_Logan said:
			
		

> _Earth shock_ is in the _Monster Manual_ stat block, and Bart's fixing the omission in the preview.




Cool.  It would have been bad if that had been left out of the MM.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Mythological roots?  You mean back to Norse and Greek mythology?  Oh wait, that's all gone now with the destruction of the Great Wheel.    Or perhaps something like the story of "Jack the Giant Killer"?  Hmn, wait, I don't think Jack was forced to deal with elemental beings.



Greek mythology.

For instance, Hercules once faced an earth giant/titan/somethingorother that was immensely powerful _as long as it touched the ground_. He defeated it by picking it up/keeping it off the ground.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (May 12, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Grab a random kobold and toss him in first so that he dies and strips the wards away?



 No, because we know the wards protecting Al'grazzar feed on evil.  Tossing in a kobold would only strengthen the wards. To bring them down one must be strong enough in body, spirit and heart to willingly withstand the wards for several minutes in order to make them expend all their energy.  

Thinking about the Archmage powers again, one thing they don't mention, and I don't think we've seen, is if there are new, more powerful encounter and daily spells in the Epic tier.  Perhaps the bending the laws of the universe will be more evident in the spells than in the abilities.


----------



## Cadfan (May 12, 2008)

I have to jump in here to support the Archmage's powers.

Spell Recall is about equivalent to an extra spell slot of your best spell level in 3e.  It may not be flashy, but its anything but trivial.  It seems appropriate for level 21.

Arcane Spirit is flashy, everyone seems to agree on that.  Should be a fun villain power, too.  "His soul is escaping!  Get it!"

Shape Magic is quite literally equivalent to getting an extra spell slot of the level of your best spell, except better because you can choose on the fly what to do with it.  Again, not flashy, but anything but trivial.

So, at level 26 in the epic destiny, you've got two more daily powers spells than anyone else.

And at level 30, when you get Archspell, you get a daily spell as a per encounter.  Again, not flashy, but quite powerful.  You no longer need to hold back big guns in case you need them later.  Meteor Swarm can become your combat opener.

So... fine, they're not flashy.  But for a "generic archmage" epic destiny, it 1) has a lot of power to it, and 2) is highly customizable.  And that seems to be what it should be.


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Mythological roots?  You mean back to Norse and Greek mythology?  Oh wait, that's all gone now with the destruction of the Great Wheel.    Or perhaps something like the story of "Jack the Giant Killer"?  Hmn, wait, I don't think Jack was forced to deal with elemental beings.  No, whatever these things are, they aren't going back to any recognizable mythological roots so far as what I can see.  They don't even go back to D&D's roots because they jettisoned all that came before.




You got to be kidding me, right? Norse and Greek mythology != Great Wheel. A thousand curses on planescape for shoehorning the Greeks et al into the Great Wheel.

As for the epic destinies, I actually like that they didn't go for "bigger numbers". The fact that an archmage can use any daily power every 5 minutes isn't epic enough? Can you imagine the sheer awe on younger mages when they start practising their once daily meteor swarms and the headmaster calmly walks in and starts throwing meteor swarms EVERY 5 MINUTES?

Even a level 20 wizard in 4E should have the jaws on the ground watching him do that...


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2008)

Swedge said:
			
		

> Are you just in this thread to shoot down other peoples ideas? The only posts i've seen from you are just that. Please try to contribute something constructive instead.




The irony of this being your only post is not lost on me. 

thnx 4 teh lulz, mang!


----------



## Mirtek (May 12, 2008)

Swedge said:
			
		

> Are you just in this thread to shoot down other peoples ideas?  The only posts i've seen from you are just that.  Please try to contribute something constructive instead.



As the idea was described that was the most sensible solution almsot anyone would come to.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

Okay! Earth Stomp is now in the statblock:



> Close BurstEarth Shock (standard; encounter)
> Close burst 2; +18 vs. Fortitude; 2d10 + 6 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of the earth titan’s next turn. Miss: Half damage, and the target is not stunned.




A thought occurs to me: What if Earth giants are the weakest? What if Fire/Storm/etc guys are the weakest of the Giants? 

But then I have to wonder why Earth, the strongest, most durable, "Old as the mountains" element is the weakest.

I think in my games, the stats for the Earth Titan will be a regular giant, and the actual Titan will be a Solo.


----------



## OchreJelly (May 12, 2008)

I bet I'm ninja'ed but it's been updated: 

Earth Shock (standard; encounter)
Close burst 2; +18 vs. Fortitude; 2d10 + 6 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of the earth titan’s next turn. Miss: Half damage, and the target is not stunned.


----------



## Sojorn (May 12, 2008)

I'm a little bit confused as to what people were expecting with the Epic Destinies.

Most of the flashy stuff is offloaded onto the classes. The EDs are really more of a meta-class than the paragon paths. The class lets you drop big rocks of doom on people (or make pit fiend a slave to your will for a few seconds. Or whatever). The ED lets you drop big rocks of doom every encounter rather than once a day.

Using a daily more than once a day or as an encounter is indeed breaking the rules of the game. It just seems to be a bit more subtle than most were hoping for?


----------



## Zil (May 12, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> When you're 21+ level, you're no longer a farmboy who picked up a sword. You _are_ practically a godling by this point.



And perhaps that is why I've never cared for epic level play in 3E and now it sounds like it might be worse in 4E.  It's all too cheesy for my tastes - like Xena dancing on flag poles with Aries.    I like the world to stay a dangerous place and high level not meaning comic book superhero.    Guess I should be shopping around for a different game if I ever want to play something truly epic.


----------



## Burne (May 12, 2008)

Gort said:
			
		

> I love the idea of epic destinies, but that one really leaves me cold.
> 
> "You build a tower somewhere and never leave it. Good game."
> 
> I'm hoping some of the other ones are better - I was hoping for stuff like "How to become a god" - stuff we couldn't do before. It's not like it was particularly tough to do "Your wizard starts a wizarding school" with the rules we had before.




And yet that's exactly what a friend of mine's character did.  Moridin made a tower, married a dyrad and founded a college.  He was a Blood Magus so I'd file the serial numbers of the Arcane Spirit and make it some sort of blood form, but otherwise the Destiny is a perfect fit.  In later campaigns, our character's have visited Moridin's tower, and recently (as we approach epic powers ourself) we're met him directly.

And it's true, you could found a wizard tower in the old rules, in fact if memory serves there were rules for playing a Wizard before 4th edition as well, and as other poster's have pointed out, rules for achieving godhood as well.  Arguing that the rules don't add anything new is a good argument for not switching your game to 4th edition, but not a reason to object to a particular rule.  I find the rules for rope sort of tedious and repetitive as well, but I won't argue that they don't have a place in 4th ed.

Burne


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Erg, really?  What is this game now?  Some kind of form of Xena Warrior Princess where the characters are practically godlings/demigods (or at least on a level where they can wrestle with a titan and win).




Pretty much.  D&D has always done classical myth better than anything else.  Quests, face stabbing, stealing their stuff, affronting the gods... all that good stuff.  Its always fallen down more often when you introduce the modern anachronisms in the current low in the fantasy genre.  




> What stupidly large numbers in 3E?  Strength modifiers for huge creatures?  Or am I missing anything.




Exactly those.  Hit points accelerated off at an exponential rate, and between the strength score and BAB of large creatures, the d20 roll really didn't matter.


On the giant article- the addition of earth shock helps the titan immensely.  An area stun effect puts gives it a definite sense of danger.  Particularly since it can smack you in the face twice right afterwards.

Other thoughts: Primordial language, eh?  Interesting.


----------



## Jack99 (May 12, 2008)

OchreJelly said:
			
		

> I bet I'm ninja'ed but it's been updated:
> 
> Earth Shock (standard; encounter)
> Close burst 2; +18 vs. Fortitude; 2d10 + 6 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of the earth titan’s next turn. Miss: Half damage, and the target is not stunned.




Smells like earthstomp, not earth shock lol. I like it.


----------



## Mirtek (May 12, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> What's funny is that, comparing the Orc entry to the Hill Giant entry... there's no contest: orcs are far more interesting.
> 
> Orcs all have abilities that say "THIS IS AN ORC" and "It'S DIFFERENT from every other humanoid." It really drives home ORC ORC ORC.
> 
> ...



To be honest, the practical application of these "special" orc powers is just as boring. Execpt for the Eye of Gruumsh all orcs just hit you with their melee weapon and on some hits gain some hp back. 

Hit
hit
hit
hit&heal
hit
hit
.
.
.
.
.


----------



## Cadfan (May 12, 2008)

Mirtek said:
			
		

> As the idea was described that was the most sensible solution almsot anyone would come to.



So _I_ post a concern about 4e, Kamikaze Midget reassures _me_, Derren trolls the thread, a newb tells him to buzz off, Kamikaze Midget defends the troll, and Mirtek defends the troll as well by criticizing Kamikaze Midget for not including better rules text in a three sentence forum post.

I'd ask for Mod action, but I can't follow my own paragraph there to figure out who to report.


----------



## Sojorn (May 12, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> As for the epic destinies, I actually like that they didn't go for "bigger numbers". The fact that an archmage can use any daily power every 5 minutes isn't epic enough? Can you imagine the sheer awe on younger mages when they start practising their once daily meteor swarms and the headmaster calmly walks in and starts throwing meteor swarms EVERY 5 MINUTES?



The wildlife probably avoids that firing range.


----------



## Daniel D. Fox (May 12, 2008)

*Earth Shock (standard; encounter) * 
Close burst 2; +18 vs. Fortitude; 2d10 + 6 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of the earth titan’s next turn. 
Miss: Half damage, and the target is not stunned.


----------



## Trolls (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Mythological roots?  You mean back to Norse and Greek mythology?  Oh wait, that's all gone now with the destruction of the Great Wheel.    Or perhaps something like the story of "Jack the Giant Killer"?  Hmn, wait, I don't think Jack was forced to deal with elemental beings.  No, whatever these things are, they aren't going back to any recognizable mythological roots so far as what I can see.  They don't even go back to D&D's roots because they jettisoned all that came before.




The Norse giants, Jotun, were created by Ymir in Ginnungagap. Ymir and Ginnungagap map pretty closely to primordials and the Elemental Chaos.


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> And perhaps that is why I've never cared for epic level play in 3E and now it sounds like it might be worse in 4E.  It's all too cheesy for my tastes - like Xena dancing on flag poles with Aries.    I like the world to stay a dangerous place and high level not meaning comic book superhero.    Guess I should be shopping around for a different game if I ever want to play something truly epic.




I'm actually curious as to what you look for in an epic game. On the one hand, you don't like the "wahoo" nature of the PCs, but on the other hand you want the giants et al to be monstrously stronger than the PCs...

Yet, when I think Epic, I think Heracles kicking the crap out of giants, Beowulf ripping off grendels arms etc...

At epic level, your fighter should be able to lay a smackdown on giants WITHOUT the use of magic. Just plain pure badass skill.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (May 12, 2008)

Sojorn said:
			
		

> Using a daily more than once a day or as an encounter is indeed breaking the rules of the game. It just seems to be a bit more subtle than most were hoping for?



 Where my disconnect came in was that they didn't say Epic PCs could break the rules of the game, but rather the rules of the _universe._  In my mind I don't equate the rules of the game with the rules of the universe, so it seemed a bit disappointing.  As I stated in a later post though, I will wait to see if perhaps the "universe breaking" feel has ended up in some Epic spells, rather than Epic abilities.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> So... fine, they're not flashy.




And that is problematic. Flashy is what we've waited 20 levels for, yo.



			
				Zil said:
			
		

> And perhaps that is why I've never cared for epic level play in 3E and now it sounds like it might be worse in 4E. It's all too cheesy for my tastes - like Xena dancing on flag poles with Aries. I like the world to stay a dangerous place and high level not meaning comic book superhero. Guess I should be shopping around for a different game if I ever want to play something truly epic.




Well, "truly epic" is a lot of that cheesiness. Achilles was immune to everything except one specific little speck of flesh, after all. The world was NOT a dangerous place for him.

The world isn't a dangerous place for 21+ D&D characters. The danger has to keep pace with their heroics, there are bigger dangers out there than "the world."

Like "Asmodeus."

If you prefer something a bit more prozaic, you could always "E6" the game at level 10.


----------



## Wormwood (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> I like the world to stay a dangerous place and high level not meaning comic book superhero.    Guess I should be shopping around for a different game if I ever want to play something truly epic.



Or, you just stop playing at 20th level.


----------



## Zil (May 12, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> You got to be kidding me, right? Norse and Greek mythology != Great Wheel. A thousand curses on planescape for shoehorning the Greeks et al into the Great Wheel.



Of course you don't need the Great Wheel.  But at least within the Great Wheel you had the mythological origins of the Frost and Fire Giants and the Titans represented in some way.  The underpinnings were all there.  With the new cosmology, you have none of that in any way.  The new cosmology reminds me of a somewhat lame law/chaos cosmology (Moorcock, Cooper or Zelazny have all done it better).  But even with Moorcock, when he portrayed giants in his eternal champion cycle you could still see their mythological roots (in this case Celtic origins in the stories I'm thinking of).  I don't see anything at all in these new giants other than making them quasi-elementals with an ancient allegiance to the primordial elemental lords.

By the way, the Great Wheel predated Planescape by many, many years so I think your curses are misdirected.  



> As for the epic destinies, I actually like that they didn't go for "bigger numbers". The fact that an archmage can use any daily power every 5 minutes isn't epic enough? Can you imagine the sheer awe on younger mages when they start practising their once daily meteor swarms and the headmaster calmly walks in and starts throwing meteor swarms EVERY 5 MINUTES?



I misunderstood you.  I thought you were referring to something else specific to the giants.


----------



## Korgoth (May 12, 2008)

I'm still miffed that they're holding back Frost Giants for MM2.  First of all, they were the stars of G2, one of the first modules published, and second (and more importantly), they go along with Fire Giants as important figures in Norse Myth.  And if D&D is about any one thing, that thing is Vikings.

This "Death Giant" sounds like a poser.  I want my Viking giants.


----------



## Zil (May 12, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> I'm actually curious as to what you look for in an epic game. On the one hand, you don't like the "wahoo" nature of the PCs, but on the other hand you want the giants et al to be monstrously stronger than the PCs...
> 
> Yet, when I think Epic, I think Heracles kicking the crap out of giants, Beowulf ripping off grendels arms etc...
> 
> At epic level, your fighter should be able to lay a smackdown on giants WITHOUT the use of magic. Just plain pure badass skill.



Skill, yes.  Comic book strength and dex no.   Your fighter should be a formidable swordsmen able to strike critical blows, hamstring the giants or whatnot.  He should not dance on his nose or arm wrestle him.   And if a giant lands a blow, it should hurt, throw him around, etc.  The fighter just has the staying power and _skill_ to overcome. but without it turning into a comic book feel.  Magic is optional.  I actually prefer lower magic games as well, but I can go either way depending in what the players are expecting.


----------



## Jack99 (May 12, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> I'd ask for Mod action, but I can't follow my own paragraph there to figure out who to report.




Yourself for doubting the awesomeness of 4e?


----------



## Serensius (May 12, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> I'm still miffed that they're holding back Frost Giants for MM2.  First of all, they were the stars of G2, one of the first modules published, and second (and more importantly), they go along with Fire Giants as important figures in Norse Myth.  And if D&D is about any one thing, that thing is Vikings.
> 
> This "Death Giant" sounds like a poser.  I want my Viking giants.




QFT.


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> This "Death Giant" sounds like a poser.  I want my Viking giants.




Yeah, I was worried when they started going on about the death and eldritch giants.  Those things were horrible and uninteresting.  Frost and Fire are where its at.


----------



## Kishin (May 12, 2008)

Torchlyte said:
			
		

> Hilarious.
> 
> Earth Shock is a classic Shaman spell from WoW.




Little surprised by the choice of name, but the WoW version is a lightning blast that interrupts spells. I'm pretty sure the Earth Titan isn't hurling lightning.



			
				Derren said:
			
		

> And for my usual anti-4Eism:
> Epic Destiny fluff highly situational and disruptive if the game is not build around the idea of epic quests,




Blah blah, just ignore it. Seriously, how do people get worked up over fluff like this? It takes hardly any effort to gloss over its existence.


----------



## Kishin (May 12, 2008)

Torchlyte said:
			
		

> Hilarious.
> 
> Earth Shock is a classic Shaman spell from WoW.




Little surprised by the choice of name, but the WoW version is a lightning blast that interrupts spells. I'm pretty sure the Earth Titan isn't hurling lightning.



			
				Derren said:
			
		

> And for my usual anti-4Eism:
> Epic Destiny fluff highly situational and disruptive if the game is not build around the idea of epic quests,




Blah blah, just ignore it. Seriously, how do people get worked up over fluff like this? It takes hardly any effort to gloss over its existence.

I will agree though, there was nothing too mechanically interesting about the Archmage.



			
				Korgoth said:
			
		

> Korgoth said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Zil (May 12, 2008)

Trolls said:
			
		

> The Norse giants, Jotun, were created by Ymir in Ginnungagap. Ymir and Ginnungagap map pretty closely to primordials and the Elemental Chaos.



Do they?  I hope you're right, but so far I haven't seen any hint of that in the new cosmology.   What they posted today made them sound like quasi-elementals, not of the lineage of Norse giants.   Maybe when they do the Manual of the Planes things will fit together better for me.


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Skill, yes.  Comic book strength and dex no.   Your fighter should be a formidable swordsmen able to strike critical blows, hamstring the giants or whatnot.  He should not dance on his nose or arm wrestle him.   And if a giant lands a blow, it should hurt, throw him around, etc.  The fighter just has the staying power and _skill_ to overcome. but without it turning into a comic book feel.  Magic is optional.  I actually prefer lower magic games as well, but I can go either way depending in what the players are expecting.




But tha's not Heracles or Beowulf though...Odysseus is paragon, Heracles is Epic and it does to me at any rate refer to over-the-top feats of strength and athletics. Basically, epic heros should be physically impressive that even paragon creatures don't want to mess with them if they come out of the shower.

re: Giants

The war between the primordials (plus their servants) and the gods (with their champions) is one of the most common mythic archtypes around. Really, 4E seems definitely aimed at capturing that type of history whereas with say Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, I've never gotten a mythic vibe from the world.


----------



## Storminator (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Skill, yes.  Comic book strength and dex no.   Your fighter should be a formidable swordsmen able to strike critical blows, hamstring the giants or whatnot.  He should not dance on his nose or arm wrestle him.   And if a giant lands a blow, it should hurt, throw him around, etc.  The fighter just has the staying power and _skill_ to overcome. but without it turning into a comic book feel.  Magic is optional.  I actually prefer lower magic games as well, but I can go either way depending in what the players are expecting.




Um... huh?

Hercules holding up the world while Atlas takes a breather doesn't count as comic book strength?

PS


----------



## Andor (May 12, 2008)

Ahh! So now we see the Earth Shock, the special power of the 16th level elite Earth Titan! And it's... the classic comic book foot stomp. Wheee. Nothing screams "Ancient elemental titan of creation" like a once per encounter abilty to replicate the 3.5 edition 1st level psionic power. -_-


----------



## Ultimatecalibur (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Skill, yes.  Comic book strength and dex no.   Your fighter should be a formidable swordsmen able to strike critical blows, hamstring the giants or whatnot.  He should not dance on his nose or arm wrestle him.   And if a giant lands a blow, it should hurt, throw him around, etc.  The fighter just has the staying power and _skill_ to overcome. but without it turning into a comic book feel.  Magic is optional.  I actually prefer lower magic games as well, but I can go either way depending in what the players are expecting.




It sound like you are looking for paragon not epic. Paragon has the giant fight going the way you want. At _Epic_, Earth Titans are mooks and the Godlike Earth Primordial the characters are fighting just had his fist stopped by one hand of the fighter.

Just a question for all of those posters who are complaining about Earth Shock and that the Earth Giants throw rocks: What sort of abilities do you expect Earth Giants to have?


----------



## Sojorn (May 12, 2008)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Where my disconnect came in was that they didn't say Epic PCs could break the rules of the game, but rather the rules of the _universe._



Just double checked the Tiers article. It just says "rules". Nothing about if they meant universe or game. So I guess everyone just reads that however they want 

There might have been other mentions of it I missed, but the tiers article was where I remember picking up the "break the rules" idea of epic destinies.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (May 12, 2008)

One thing is we haven't seen much about what the Epic tier powers and feats and items are.  We don't have a complete picture of what an Epic Wizard can do.  We haven't seen the 4e versions of spells like Meteor Swarm or Hellball yet.  There's no idea what it completely means with a 30th level wizard-battlemage-archmage  wielding a +8 Staff of the Archmagi (speculation) and the ability to use a daily as an encounter power.

All we know about Epic Powers, is the Paladin's Binding Smite.


----------



## Knight Otu (May 12, 2008)

Sojorn said:
			
		

> Just double checked the Tiers article. It just says "rules". Nothing about if they meant universe or game. So I guess everyone just reads that however they want
> 
> There might have been other mentions of it I missed, but the tiers article was where I remember picking up the "break the rules" idea of epic destinies.



This very article:


			
				Bruce Cordell said:
			
		

> While it’s true that your epic destiny allows you to bend, break, or ignore some of the laws of the universe, an epic destiny isn’t merely about acquiring even more power.



Granted, it's from the intro rather than the excerpt, but it's there.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> I mean, really, Demispell and hyperplanar?  Sigh.




Demispell - surely that is half as good as a real spell, yes? I've never got the idea that the demi prefix is used to mean 'really bad-ass' in D&Dland (demilich, demispell) rather than the 'half as good' as the normal usage would suggest 



			
				Voss said:
			
		

> They just drag the fight out into grindfests.




I wondered how long a hill giant would take to kill another hill giant, taking club average damage, hit probability and so on.

27-28 melee rounds.

Earth Titans can finish each other off slightly more quickly, at 22-23 melee rounds.

I have to say I find the giants damage uninspiring (and their strength seems paltry for their size - I wonder what is going on there?). Shouldn't bigger creatures have bigger weapons or something?

Cheers


----------



## Dausuul (May 12, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> I'm still miffed that they're holding back Frost Giants for MM2.  First of all, they were the stars of G2, one of the first modules published, and second (and more importantly), they go along with Fire Giants as important figures in Norse Myth.  And if D&D is about any one thing, that thing is Vikings.
> 
> This "Death Giant" sounds like a poser.  I want my Viking giants.




Agreed.  I'm going to be running a campaign set in an ice age world.  How the heck am I supposed to make an ice age world without frost giants?  They just better have stats for woolly mammoths, or I'm going to be really upset.

(Okay, I'll probably just use elephant stats for mammoths.  And I'm sure I can whip something up for frost giants, maybe just change the elemental abilities on fire giants.  But it's the principle of the thing, dangit!  )


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

Andor said:
			
		

> Ahh! So now we see the Earth Shock, the special power of the 16th level elite Earth Titan! And it's... the classic comic book foot stomp. Wheee. Nothing screams "Ancient elemental titan of creation" like a once per encounter abilty to replicate the 3.5 edition 1st level psionic power. -_-




Actually I think this is a good point.

4E has dialled back the numbers that mid to high (level 10+) characters/monsters could generate in 3E.

You aren't going to see massibe 20d6 powers or anything like that even at the EPIC range is my guess. Remember, they've always said that in terms of sheer raw power, 4E characters start off stronger but they don't reach the game-warping effects of the highlevel wizard.

A 4E character without magic at late paragon and epic is probably going to be stronger/more varied than the equivalent high level core only fighter in 3.x without magic items but their class abilities will be nowhere near what an Wizard/Archmage/Initiate of Seven Veils will be.

From seeing the blinding smite long ago and the high level monsters/powers, a 4E character at high levels without magic items is probably going to resemble closer a high level rogue in capability (without the high sneak attack multiple damage dice)


----------



## Felon (May 12, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Demispell - surely that is half as good as a real spell, yes? I've never got the idea that the demi prefix is used to mean 'really bad-ass' in D&Dland (demilich, demispell) rather than the 'half as good' as the normal usage would suggest



The prefix "Demi" doesn't tend to mean "half" as in "only half as good", but rather as in "half this, half something else". Thus, a demigod is a hybrid of god and something not a god, and might consider himself lucky to possess even half the power of a full god. OTOH, a demilich has some of the qualities of a lich, but it's also something else--presumably, something greater than a lich. The connotation with demilich and demspell seems to be that their other half is something so unique and unkown that there's no true word for it.


----------



## Andor (May 12, 2008)

Ultimatecalibur said:
			
		

> Just a question for all of those posters who are complaining about Earth Shock and that the Earth Giants throw rocks: What sort of abilities do you expect Earth Giants to have?




Earth giants? That sounds fine.

But if you're going to take endless paragraphs to tell me how awesometacular the Titans are, and how they helped the primordials shape the planes themselves in the beginning of all then they should have some kind of ability that reflects that. "Stomp hard" does not qualify. "Raise a wall of stone with a wave of your hand" is a good start, but apparently verboten because that might be role confusion. *rolls eyes* "Reshape the earth and rock of the battle field at will" is better yet, but again is too controllerish to be dared.

Really how hard is it to add something like:

*Reshape the earth* (minor, at will) Ranged 10, The Earth titan can make 3 squares of earth or stone floor into difficult terrain or even terrain.

Earth Titan Lore DC 30 - The Earth Titans ancient command over the rocks continues to this day. They can raise or lower pillars of earth or twisted stone at will. Wherever they pass they tend to leave strange formations of stone warped into fantastic shapes.


----------



## Sojorn (May 12, 2008)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> This very article:
> 
> Granted, it's from the intro rather than the excerpt, but it's there.



Hrm.

Thanks, but hrm.


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Demispell - surely that is half as good as a real spell, yes? I've never got the idea that the demi prefix is used to mean 'really bad-ass' in D&Dland (demilich, demispell) rather than the 'half as good' as the normal usage would suggest




I assume that usage is coming from Demiurge or something similiar (in the sense of creation) unfortunately its been situated alongside other concepts like demilich (which, depending how you want to look at it, is even more awesome than a lich, or just a remnant of one), and demihuman (in the sense of sub- or partial human).   They just don't have a consistent handle on metaphysics.




> I wondered how long a hill giant would take to kill another hill giant, taking club average damage, hit probability and so on.
> 
> 27-28 melee rounds.
> 
> ...




Damage numbers are lower all around,  it feels somewhat odd, but I think 3rd edition was the true aberration in this regard, with the 4e numbers a bit more consistent with the rest of D&D.  Hit points are still fairly high, however, which is what drags these combats out.  It avoids a problem with one shot kills and easy fights, but I worry that it can drag on for too long and the fights become dull.


----------



## Wolfwood2 (May 12, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I have to say I find the giants damage uninspiring (and their strength seems paltry for their size - I wonder what is going on there?). Shouldn't bigger creatures have bigger weapons or something?




Remember that even in Third Edition, "strength" was not preciusely parallel to carrying capacity and weightlifting.  in 3E, a Large character with strength 20 could lift twice what a medium character with strength 20 could.  A Huge characters was (I think) x4.

Perhaps 4E continues this trend even further, making the size multiplier even larger.  That would allow big monsters to be able to carry as much as they should be able to, without forcing the game to give them such ridiculously high strength scores as to break the math.  I'm fine with titans having strength 23, if they can lift 20 times what a strength 23 human can.


----------



## Derren (May 12, 2008)

Andor said:
			
		

> "Raise a wall of stone with a wave of your hand" is a good start, but apparently verboten because that might be role confusion. *rolls eyes* "Reshape the earth and rack of the battle field at will" is better yet, but again is too controllerish to be dared.




Seconded. (And I don't care if that would be role infringement).


----------



## Tewligan (May 12, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> I'm still miffed that they're holding back Frost Giants for MM2.  First of all, they were the stars of G2, one of the first modules published, and second (and more importantly), they go along with Fire Giants as important figures in Norse Myth.  And if D&D is about any one thing, that thing is Vikings.
> 
> This "Death Giant" sounds like a poser.  I want my Viking giants.



Hell, yeah! When I think of giants, I should be hearing Led Zeppelin thundering in my head - the Death Giant is MOST unevocative of "The Immigrant Song", damn it!


----------



## Merlin the Tuna (May 12, 2008)

I'm not really concerned about the lack of oomph in the Archmage epic destiny; we pretty much already knew this from the Tiers article.  One utility power from the destiny at 26th level, and that's it for powers.  If you want universe-destroying powers, you look at the class powers you pick up at 22nd, 23rd, 25th, 27th, and 29th.  And I imagine at-wills fill in the blanks at a few of the other levels.

I'm not really sure where the old Frost and Fire Giants were interesting.  Maybe Against the Giants was pretty cool.  I wouldn't know on account of having been negative five years old when it was published.  All I know is that, looking at 3.5 fire giants, they are about this interesting.  These seem to be a step up, if only a small one in the case of the Hill Giant.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

Ultimatecalibur said:
			
		

> Just a question for all of those posters who are complaining about Earth Shock and that the Earth Giants throw rocks: What sort of abilities do you expect Earth Giants to have?



Hill giant: 

Savage Haymaker (Standard Encounter Recharge   )
Reach 2; +15 vs Fort, 1d10+12, opponent is weaked (save ends)

Hurling Swing (Standard At Will)
Reach 2; +15 vs AC, 1d10+5 and push 3.

For Earth Titans:

Stomp (Standard Encounter)
Reach 3; +20 vs. Reflex, 2d10+12, enemy is stunned, prone and weakened (save ends).

Rain of Stone (Standard Encounter)
Ranged 15 Area Burst 1; 18 vs. Reflex; 2d10+10, enemy is dazed, pushed 2

Pick Up (Standard, At Will)
Reach 3; +20 vs Reflex. Treat as regular grapple. Followup: Squeeze (+20 vs. Fort; 3d10+5) or Hurl (Push 8, 2d10+15)

Rending Bedrock Wave (Standard Encounter Recharge  )
Close Blast 5; +20 vs. Reflex, 2d10+3, enemy is knocked prone, pushed 4.


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I wondered how long a hill giant would take to kill another hill giant, taking club average damage, hit probability and so on.
> 
> 27-28 melee rounds.
> 
> ...




Their not meant to fight each other though...

For example, at level 16, a fighter or paladin will have 15x6 + 9 + con score = say 120 hp. His AC I'm guessing will be at 30 (pre-combat, given that Kathra started at 19 and gains +8 from levels and then +3 from magic armour)

Thus, the earth titan on average every round will dish out 17 pts of damage. Should only take 7 rounds of combat for the titan to finish off one PC at that level which means that 2 PCs should be able to kill the titan at least in 5-6 rounds.


----------



## WhatGravitas (May 12, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Demispell - surely that is half as good as a real spell, yes? I've never got the idea that the demi prefix is used to mean 'really bad-ass' in D&Dland (demilich, demispell) rather than the 'half as good' as the normal usage would suggest



After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that many problems are solved, if the "demi-" prefix would be replaced by "meta-".

Metalich.
Metahumans.
Metaspell.

While not always spot on (besides the somewhat arbitary use of the prefix), it sounds better, at least IMHO. But I'm Shadowrun-damaged in that way.

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Bold or Stupid (May 12, 2008)

Giants: I don't mind the strength thing as long as one rule from 3rd ed is carried over. The carrying capacities being multiplied as you go up size categories (and down). The bonus on attacks and damage become a matter of how well strength is applied and a sort of force/square inch equation starts to mean that damage doesn't increase as fast as it may seem it should. Plus I see giants a doing slow parryable swings and since velocity has more effect on kinetic energy it all looks fine to me.

Epic Destinies: I wanta play an Archmage!!! So long as epic encounter and dailies kick ass.


----------



## Wolfspider (May 12, 2008)

Andor said:
			
		

> But if you're going to take endless paragraphs to tell me how awesometacular the Titans are, and how they helped the primordials shape the planes themselves in the beginning of all then they should have some kind of ability that reflects that. "Stomp hard" does not qualify.




Rituals.


----------



## Vendark (May 12, 2008)

Andor said:
			
		

> Earth giants? That sounds fine.
> 
> But if you're going to take endless paragraphs to tell me how awesometacular the Titans are, and how they helped the primordials shape the planes themselves in the beginning of all then they should have some kind of ability that reflects that. "Stomp hard" does not qualify. "Raise a wall of stone with a wave of your hand" is a good start, but apparently verboten because that might be role confusion. *rolls eyes* "Reshape the earth and rack of the battle field at will" is better yet, but again is too controllerish to be dared.




It would be easy to flavor the Earth Titan's rock hurling along these lines. Maybe instead of picking up a rock, he holds out his hand, palm down, and earth flows up to fill it. Or maybe instead of throwing anything, he simply points, and shards of earth lance up to strike his enemies. That would have the added advantage of you not having to make sure there always just happen to be a bunch of giant rocks conveniently strewn about for him to pick up and throw.


----------



## lutecius (May 12, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> They made them more tied to their mythological roots (WIN)



So giants now have serpents for feet or regenerate when they touch the ground like in Greek mythology? 
Or are they crafty sorcerers and shapechangers, like in the Norse tradition?
And titans are the well-proportioned ancestors and cousins of the gods?

I understand that they needed a name for their über-giants but these "titans" seem closer to the Disney version than actual mythology.
It's not necessarily a bad thing, the titans in previous editions weren’t very interesting imho, but the new look, them being chaotic evil by default and "only slightly smarter than the dirt [they're] made of" doesn't do it for me either.

I know dnd giants have always had elemental affinities but this "earth titan" is basically a huge earth elemental and even those had more potential in 3e.
And does everything in 4e has to be a walking (or floating) pile of elemental junk? Archons and maybe demons, to differentiate them from devils, I can see, but angels and titans/giants? blah!


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> I'm not really concerned about the lack of oomph in the Archmage epic destiny; we pretty much already knew this from the Tiers article.  One utility power from the destiny at 26th level, and that's it for powers.  If you want universe-destroying powers, you look at the class powers you pick up at 22nd, 23rd, 25th, 27th, and 29th.  And I imagine at-wills fill in the blanks at a few of the other levels.
> 
> I'm not really sure where the old Frost and Fire Giants were interesting.  Maybe Against the Giants was pretty cool.  I wouldn't know on account of having been negative five years old when it was published.  All I know is that, looking at 3.5 fire giants, they are about this interesting.  These seem to be a step up, if only a small one in the case of the Hill Giant.




Hmm.  In both these cases its the feel and flavor rather than the power.  The archmage doesn't lack oomph because of his abilities, which are fine.  But the powers are what I'd expect to be getting anyway at those levels (and given the one really high level power we've seen, the paladin smite that disrupts all line of effect from the target for a round, I don't expect world destroying).  But they don't really have anything to do with being an archmage- you get some neat abilities at high level that allow you to be more of a wizard (in this case) and you get a paper hat that says  'Archmage' on it.  The abilities are nice, but you might as well toss the hat in the rubbish bin.  It doesn't add anything interesting to the character.  If Bob the 30th level wizard who doesn't have the Archmage destiny wants to call himself an Archmage, who is going to tell him no?  

Same with the giants.  Frost and Fire giants have a history, a theme and a point.  A death giant is just a big guy with a bunch of random necromantic abilities that have nothing at all to do with being a giant.  He could have been a hill giant with 15 levels of Cleric (of Nerull) and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.  Thats a dull monster.  You could make an individual death giant interesting if you really tried, but collectively, they aren't interesting as giants.


----------



## Felon (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> Same with the giants.  Frost and Fire giants have a history, a theme and a point.  A death giant is just a big guy with a bunch of random necromantic abilities that have nothing at all to do with being a giant.  He could have been a hill giant with 15 levels of Cleric (of Nerull) and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.  Thats a dull monster.  You could make an individual death giant interesting if you really tried, but collectively, they aren't interesting as giants.



Lots of unsupported and unsupportable declarations there. Death giants were one of the most interesting critters from the MMIII IMO, with a very distinctive background. Not sure what you think constitutes a "gianty" ability, but there are lots of myths about giants wielding magic, not just bashing things with clubs.


----------



## fnwc (May 12, 2008)

*Ranged 8/16?*

On the Hill Giant:

Hurl Rock (standard; at-will)
*Ranged 8/16*; +15 vs. AC; 2d6 + 5 damage.

What exactly does Ranged 8/16 mean? I haven't seen this before...


----------



## keterys (May 12, 2008)

Just for fun, threw together an elite hill giant and solo earth titan.

I do think it'd be worthwhile to have it with some of the extra fodder from the example encounter, but you could still manage that as a 17-19 fight, even with it a solo.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

fnwc said:
			
		

> What exactly does Ranged 8/16 mean? I haven't seen this before...



The same as any other ranged attack.

Look at any archer. They have the range, usually 10/20. Anything within the first number has no penalty; anything after gets a -2.


----------



## AllisterH (May 12, 2008)

I much prefer the Death giant from MMIII than the bog standard Frost and Fire ones. I'm sorry but while they have lots of history with D&D, they just plain ass suck for me. I've never been enamored with them and have never seen the big deal with giants.

These hill giants are the same way IMHO which is why I find them disappointing. Giants are basically upscale version of kobolds.


----------



## Merlin the Tuna (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> But the powers are what I'd expect to be getting anyway at those levels...  But they don't really have anything to do with being an archmage...



The archmage casts draining, tiresome magic without becoming drained or tired.  Nothing seems off about this to me.  What was your expectation for the Archmage?

To be honest though, I do have to say that I don't think "Archmage" is useful as the name of anything in game, and I'm kind of disappointed that it's hung around this long.  The title tends to be associated with power, and as you said, 30th level Wizards tend to have the power.  I still feel that the reusability of the Archmage's powers gives him the feel of one who has truly mastered magic rather than one who can only barely grasp its power, but I consider the archetype fairly... not archetypal as soon as you introduce it to a classed, level based game.







			
				Voss said:
			
		

> Frost and Fire giants have a history, a theme and a point.



Absolutely disagree.  Like I said, I don't have a 27 year old module to work with to give me history.  I have a 3.5 Monster Manual that tells me that Fire Giants are grumpy, wear red and orange, and like volcanos and flaming swords.  And that Frost Giants are also grumpy, wear pelts, and like glaciers.  I accept that, _somewhere_, there may be a cool history, but I don't see it.  The theme is apparently "these creatures are palette swaps," and their point appears to be being a big dumb meatsack with a club or axe.

You could make an individual frost/fire giant interesting if you really tried, but collectively, they aren't interesting as giants.


----------



## Felon (May 12, 2008)

So, folks, do epic destinies really mean that the likes of Elminster and The Symbul have been forced into mandatory retirement?


----------



## keterys (May 12, 2008)

Ranged 8/16 means your normal range is 8, and your max range is 16 but you're at -2 to attack at long range.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

Never did like the Frost/Fire giants either.

I thought the Death Giant was interesting, but too powerful; I don't like save or die, and that's what he had, so.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> So, folks, do epic destinies really mean that the likes of Elminster and The Symbul have been forced into mandatory retirement?



Didn't the spell plague kill them?


----------



## Tuft (May 12, 2008)

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> I'm not really concerned about the lack of oomph in the Archmage epic destiny; we pretty much already knew this from the Tiers article.  One utility power from the destiny at 26th level, and that's it for powers.  If you want universe-destroying powers, you look at the class powers you pick up at 22nd, 23rd, 25th, 27th, and 29th.  And I imagine at-wills fill in the blanks at a few of the other levels.




It's not about the oomph - it's the wet cardboard flavour....


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> The archmage casts draining, tiresome magic without becoming drained or tired.  Nothing seems off about this to me.  What was your expectation for the Archmage?




Nothing at all.  Its a title, nothing more.  But they're trying to build it up into something amazing, and it looks kind of sad, because it remains just a title despite all the 'epicness' and 'destiny' that they're trying to imbue into it.  The abilities wouldn't be out of place as just optional picks for wizard class abilities at levels 21, 24, and whatever.  I like the abilities, there just doesn't seem to be any reason to separate it out and put on a pointy hat with 'archmage' stitched on it.




> .Absolutely disagree.  Like I said, I don't have a 27 year old module to work with to give me history.  I have a 3.5 Monster Manual that tells me that Fire Giants are grumpy, wear red and orange, and like volcanos and flaming swords.  And that Frost Giants are also grumpy, wear pelts, and like glaciers.  I accept that, _somewhere_, there may be a cool history, but I don't see it.  The theme is apparently "these creatures are palette swaps," and their point appears to be being a big dumb meatsack with a club or axe.
> 
> You could make an individual frost/fire giant interesting if you really tried, but collectively, they aren't interesting as giants.




It has nothing to do with Against the Giants (which frankly, as far as modules go, is pure trash)  Giants go back into folklore, myth and literature.   Drawing from that background is what makes them interesting, not being a beatstick or a random collection of spell-like abilities. Thats why the death giant fails- its *just* a collection of abilities.  It has no depth at all. Classic giants are the aggressive and dangerous side of humans literally written large, with all the failings and flaws available to exploit by the cunning hero.  If you delve into it, there are cultures and preferences and tactics and all sorts of things.  A death giant is just a big guy who casts finger of death at you. (or whatever).


----------



## keterys (May 12, 2008)

I'm actually surprised they didn't give the Archmage some of the abilities from 3.x. Ie, like 

Arcane Fire at-will, Mastery of Elements - change energy type by spending an action point, some type of counterspell...


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 12, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> So, folks, do epic destinies really mean that the likes of Elminster and The Symbul have been forced into mandatory retirement?



Or they simply aren't fully level 30, and even if they are that doesn't mean they have "retired" they have simply reached the pinnacle of their power (thank god when it comes to Elminster in this regard).

I don't think too the abilities of the Archmage are underpower or "non-Epic" think about what the Archmage is, he is simply a extremely powerful Wizard. As such, it makes sense a Archmages powers would simply allow better use of one's Wizard powers, since guess what that is all a Archmage is, a powerful Wizard.

I suspect ordinary Epic-Tier Wizard powers will be plenty powerful and epic enough. Not to mention what Rituals you may have, hell! There may be Archmage-specific Rituals.


----------



## cthulhus_pinky (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> Hmm.  In both these cases its the feel and flavor rather than the power.  The archmage doesn't lack oomph because of his abilities, which are fine.  But the powers are what I'd expect to be getting anyway at those levels (and given the one really high level power we've seen, the paladin smite that disrupts all line of effect from the target for a round, I don't expect world destroying).  But they don't really have anything to do with being an archmage- you get some neat abilities at high level that allow you to be more of a wizard (in this case) and you get a paper hat that says  'Archmage' on it.  The abilities are nice, but you might as well toss the hat in the rubbish bin.  It doesn't add anything interesting to the character.  If Bob the 30th level wizard who doesn't have the Archmage destiny wants to call himself an Archmage, who is going to tell him no?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ryryguy (May 12, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Hill giant:
> 
> Savage Haymaker (Standard Encounter Recharge   )
> Reach 2; +15 vs Fort, 1d10+12, opponent is weaked (save ends)
> ...




Not to say that I don't like these particular abilities, and they certainly seem like some more fun options than what was given in the article.

However, isn't it part of the 4e plan that monster attack profiles (to-hit, damage, and presumably add-ons like push or stun) are very strongly determined by the monster's level and role?  In order to help stay in that magic "sweet spot"?  Perhaps that is why the giants in the article don't have the damage output nor some of the special effects that people are expecting from giants.

And if that is the case, it may not work out too well to simply bump up the damage output of these powers and to tack on more effects, which is what it seems like you've done here.

Note, my point here is not "4e rulez!!! and therefore your suggestions stink!!!", rather to point out why the giant stat blocks may look like they do.  It could be argued that this is a weakness of the 4e framework: that it tends to make bland monsters which aren't greatly distinguished mechanically from other monsters.  

I hope there is a very good look at the nuts and bolts of the framework with lots of guidelines for modifying monsters, so that if you do want to soup up a giant's stat block, you can do it in a way that won't blow everything up.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> Nothing at all.  Its a title, nothing more.  But they're trying to build it up into something amazing, and it looks kind of sad, because it remains just a title despite all the 'epicness' and 'destiny' that they're trying to imbue into it.  The abilities wouldn't be out of place as just optional picks for wizard class abilities at levels 21, 24, and whatever.  I like the abilities, there just doesn't seem to be any reason to separate it out and put on a pointy hat with 'archmage' stitched on it.



 Maybe part of the problem is a lack of anything to compare it with.  Are there other Epic Destinies for a Wizard that might have more interesting abilities?  Perhaps the Archmage is one of the least inspired choices, but there is a lot of goodness among other destinies.    

4 1/2 more weeks and we will know the answer to this.


----------



## keterys (May 12, 2008)

I suspect that cultural background does not automatically make a monster cooler than a new idea. One man's background can be another's baggage, and all that.

At any rate, I'm okay with earth titans not throwing up walls of stone - honestly that's not going to really make their combat more interesting. I do wonder if there are any additional earth titans to throw at people. Ie, like an earth titan stoneshaper, earth titan mountainstomper, whatever.


----------



## ryryguy (May 12, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> So, folks, do epic destinies really mean that the likes of Elminster and The Symbul have been forced into mandatory retirement?




I believe there will be an NPC-only epic destiny in the FR material called "Deus Ex Machina".  "Immortality" in this destiny will consist of hanging around smoking, seeming really wise and generally making up-and-coming adventurers feel inferior and insignificant.


----------



## catsclaw227 (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> Same with the giants.  Frost and Fire giants have a history, a theme and a point.  A death giant is just a big guy with a bunch of random necromantic abilities that have nothing at all to do with being a giant.  He could have been a hill giant with 15 levels of Cleric (of Nerull) and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.  Thats a dull monster.  You could make an individual death giant interesting if you really tried, but collectively, they aren't interesting as giants.



Wait a sec... I am genuinely confused.  Was there a Death Giant write-up for 4e that I missed?


----------



## Intense_Interest (May 12, 2008)

I find the low strength on Giants to be interesting.

What a 21 Strength Large giant tells me that Strength is not a Linear concept- that a Small race with 18 Strength does not have the equivalent "Pulling Power" as a Large race with 18 strength.

Hopefully all the simulationist clap-trap is rolled in with the specific corner cases that they deal with (Grappling), which would also keep the Double Screwed situation of trying to grapple something large (that gets the size bonus PLUS the strength Bonus that is already given by being large).


----------



## Voss (May 12, 2008)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Maybe part of the problem is a lack of anything to compare it with.  Are there other Epic Destinies for a Wizard that might have more interesting abilities?  Perhaps the Archmage is one of the least inspired choices, but there is a lot of goodness among other destinies.
> 
> 4 1/2 more weeks and we will know the answer to this.




Again, at least for me, it isn't the abilities. Its the flavor of the 'destiny', even though they haven't detailed the others, none of them really strike me.  Partly because both words irritate me, partly because its a gross misuse of the term destiny,  but mostly because its a background/fluff thing thats being jammed into the mechanics for little reason and less gain. 

Some of them are fates or curses.  They aren't something you choose.  Some are accomplishments- not something you are until after you've done it.  Some, like the archmage are just a title you claim, until someone smacks you around for getting an overblown ego. 
Choosing your destiny is like choosing your hair color...before you're born.  Even with the weird way they are using the term destiny, its a metagame concept for a character decision, and that is, for lack of a better word, wrong.


----------



## Intense_Interest (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> Choosing your destiny is like choosing your hair color...before you're born.  Even with the weird way they are using the term destiny, its a metagame concept for a character decision, and that is, for lack of a better word, wrong.




"Choose Your Destiny" is a tagline for the Mortal Kombat series of games.  D&D has always had more to do with Mortal Kombat than any sort of Quality Literature, and complaining about the semantics here shows that you haven't accepted this.

Unless you argue that there is more to D&D than being an easy-to-run agreeable power-accruing beat-em-up.


----------



## zerotkatama (May 12, 2008)

Hm. I wonder... Could you apply Metaspell to Shape Magic? Iiiinteresting if you could.

Edit: Nevermind, Shape Magic doesn't have the Arcane keyword.


----------



## bert1000 (May 12, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Hill giant:
> 
> Savage Haymaker (Standard Encounter Recharge   )
> Reach 2; +15 vs Fort, 1d10+12, opponent is weaked (save ends)
> ...




Exactly!!

For Earth Titans:

Thunderdome (Standard Encounter Recharge 6)
Close Blast 1-3; a dome of stone 40' feet high is created in the blast area, trapping all in range.  The dome lasts for 2 rounds, or if the dome takes 75hp of damage it crumbles.

Now that would be cinematic -- split the party in half, trapped in the dark with this giant thing, no one knowing how long the dome lasts, etc.

I really hope more flavor powers like these aren't discarded simply b/c of roles, etc.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

ryryguy said:
			
		

> Not to say that I don't like these particular abilities, and they certainly seem like some more fun options than what was given in the article.
> 
> However, isn't it part of the 4e plan that monster attack profiles (to-hit, damage, and presumably add-ons like push or stun) are very strongly determined by the monster's level and role?  In order to help stay in that magic "sweet spot"?  Perhaps that is why the giants in the article don't have the damage output nor some of the special effects that people are expecting from giants.



Well, as I said, I compared the giants to the orc entry.

Aside from just a slight bump in the damage dice, the orcs are just more interesting. Compare the Orc Bloodrager to the Earth Titan; both are elites. While the OB is a 7 Elite Brute, he's got _more stuff to do_ and he's just tougher than the ET 16 Elite Brute. 

Also, the ET's earth shock is a close burst that knocks opponents prone, so I don't know so much about role. 

I agree with an earlier poster how Giants ought to be, well, elite and the titans ought to be solo. This allows them to have more power, and (at least in the case of a solo titan) have a few other abilites (i.e. Controllerish powers in addition to putting on the Brutish hurt).


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

However, three things occur to me.

1) There might be more than one Earth Titan (i.e. a controllerish Titan moving stone about like it has been discussed here). Although I find this unlikely. However, if I ever pit my PCs against the earth giant/titans, that will be the case (or the ET will be a solo monster with some controllerish abilities).

2) There are going to be other Earth-based giants. We have seen pictures of Mountain Giants in the "Worlds and Monsters" book. But so far, I'm not impressed with the stats.

3) Archons, being the new elementals, might have elemental-based controlling powers. Though I woudln't hold my breath, given how they're all depicted having weapons.


----------



## Amy Kou'ai (May 12, 2008)

Intense_Interest said:
			
		

> Unless you argue that there is more to D&D than being an easy-to-run agreeable power-accruing beat-em-up.




I argue that there is more to D&D than being an easy-to-run agreeable power-accruing beat-em-up.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand: I like epic destinies to be honest.  As a GM, it gives me Plot to work with.  I don't even mind the metanarrativity -- it gives me a mechanical construct around giving players limited narrative abilities, which _implicitly tells me what style of epic game they want to play_.  In my opinion, this is very valuable, but your mileage may vary.


----------



## drjones (May 12, 2008)

nothing to see here said:
			
		

> I think what you are highlighting as a flaw is, in fact a feature.  One of the key rule considerations in the development of 43 was to extend that mathematical "sweet spot" at all levels of play.  Perpetually open-ended advancement will probably stretch, if not outright break, the mathematical underpinings of this swee spot -- particularly if the only random variance in the rules is the ubiquitous d20 check.  I stand to be corrected on this point by people with greater math mojo.



I think you are right about the math.  By drawing a line in the sand they do not need to 'support' anything scaling off the defined levels.  When designing a monster/power they know when the math stops.

But I think the intention of the whole epic/end at 30 thing was more to encourage DMs and players to not think of leveling up as the goal in and of itself.  It provides a structure to hang your character arc upon and serves as a reminder that how many hit points you have is not a huge deal, who your character is and what story they are part of is.

BUT I CAN DO THAT ALLREADY!!! you say.  Yes YOU can.  Mr. dm who has never played before needs the help.  As for it being too constricting I don't see anything here that requires a certain characterization, your epic destiny could be to settle down and farm turnips as far as I can tell, just that you do so after having done fabulous things and become amazingly powerful.  The only thing it is pushing is that you should think about wrapping things up as you approach 30.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2008)

drjones said:
			
		

> But I think the intention of the whole epic/end at 30 thing was more to encourage DMs and players to not think of leveling up as the goal in and of itself.




That's part of it. Balance is part of it. More cynically, part of it is also that it allows the multiple new settings and supplements to be useful. 

All of my 3e campaigns had a defined "end point." This had the secondary effect of me buying a lot of things to use in "my next campaign," even if I wasn't actively using them at the moment, because I would be using them in a few months. A big part of that was campaign settings. I don't play in the same setting for more than a few months, so a plurality of settings is very useful to me. If you don't have an express "end point" it's a lot easier ot have your campaign peter out without a real difinitive "stopping point." I can always go back and revisit the favorite settings, but I didn't have to worry about DMing for 10 years in one world.


----------



## Zil (May 12, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> But tha's not Heracles or Beowulf though...Odysseus is paragon, Heracles is Epic and it does to me at any rate refer to over-the-top feats of strength and athletics. Basically, epic heros should be physically impressive that even paragon creatures don't want to mess with them if they come out of the shower.



Well, I guess that my interest ends at Paragon then.  I would say Beowulf is Paragon in the D&D sense, not epic.  While he could wrestle with Grendel, it was no walk in the park.  And.. in the end, he was mortal.  He did die.  

I do think that epic characters can be impressive without having ridiculous ability scores.  They are just deadlier and can survive more things.  What I would have liked to have seen was a progression along the lines of what Gygax seemed to hint at in his old Dragon Magazine articles with his quasi-deities like Muryland.  These characters have just a whiff of the divine in them, but they are not superheroes.  

I guess we just have a different idea of what we would like to see for very high level play and that's fine.  I'll just either avoid using the 4E (or 3E) rules for epic play and just come up with something else that works better for me.



> The war between the primordials (plus their servants) and the gods (with their champions) is one of the most common mythic archetypes around. Really, 4E seems definitely aimed at capturing that type of history whereas with say Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, I've never gotten a mythic vibe from the world.



Are the gods in 4E the children of the Primordials who turned on their parents?  If they are really going for the classic mythic archetypes, that's a must.   On the other hand, if the gods are just mortals who have stepped into portfolios or who have advanced to level 30 or beyond, that's a different sort of animal that isn't quite so mythic in my mind.  It's more like Steven Erikson which I suppose could be fine, but it's not really like the classic Greek or Norse myths.   Maybe they have done this...  I'm not sure how we went down this road.  Oh, right.  Giants!


----------



## Spatula (May 12, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> You got to be kidding me, right? Norse and Greek mythology != Great Wheel. A thousand curses on planescape for shoehorning the Greeks et al into the Great Wheel.



Planescape?  Planescape didn't invent the great wheel.  The great wheel appears in the back of the 1e AD&D PHB, is probably in the 1e DMG too, and includes Olympus, Asgard, Valhalla, Vanaheim, Nirvana, Dante's Nine Hells, and so on.  The real-world pantheons appeared in the 1e Dieties & Demigods, and the 1e Manual of the Planes detailed these real-world analogs in more depth.  I think 2e renamed most of those planes to try and get away from the grab-bag nature of it all, actually.


----------



## Spatula (May 12, 2008)

The hill giants are hill giants.  For all the talk about improving giants and making giants "different"... the hill giants are exactly the same as they've always been.  Which is a good thing, IMO, although I like some of the alternate abilities that people have proposed to give them some decent combat options.

The earth titan is just a big earth elemental.  Yawn.  I'd prefer the greek titans of past D&D editions to this any day.  If they had some cool earth powers it would be different, but these guys aren't impressive or interesting in any respect.


----------



## Zil (May 12, 2008)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Planescape?  Planescape didn't invent the great wheel.  The great wheel appears in the back of the 1e AD&D PHB, is probably in the 1e DMG too, and includes Olympus, Asgard, Valhalla, Vanaheim, Nirvana, Dante's Nine Hells, and so on.  The real-world pantheons appeared in the 1e Dieties & Demigods, and the 1e Manual of the Planes detailed these real-world analogs in more depth.  I think 2e renamed most of those planes to try and get away from the grab-bag nature of it all, actually.



The oldest drawings of the outer planar wheel that I recall seeing is a very old Dragon magazine article that I believe predated the 1E AD&D players handbook.   It was reprinted in the first 'Best of Dragon' I think.  So the wheel goes back to at least 1978.  There were also throw-away references to some of the Norse gods in some of the very early Gygax and company campaigns even though they were never gods of Oerth/Oerik. 

And yes, with 2E, and especially in Planescape, they started renaming a lot of the planes and trying to make more sense of the wheel plus creating some mythologies and creation myths for the entire meta-plane structure.  They did an especially good job with the lower plane myths for the Baatezu, Tanar'ri, 'leths and 'loths.

And so we digress....


----------



## pawsplay (May 12, 2008)

On the subject of archmages:

First, I'd like to register a complaint. Demi- means half. An archmage devotes his existence to mastering a... half-spell?

Anyway. Thoughts. I'm not sure I dig how this epic destiny is written up. It's not evident to me why an archmage would simply fade away, nor does sticking them in a tower sufficiently remove them from play to really be the end of them. Characters in D&D related books usually have a number of grand adventures left in them long after they've built their little sanctum. Further, it seems strange that someone who has devoted his studies to bending the universe to his will would ultimately merge with some kind of spell, losing his identity. It also seems to me that many archmages would seek to master spells with the aim of ultimately becoming a deity. Sure, there's undoubtedly a "become a deity" epic destiny, but it probably doesn't grant the benefits of the archmage path. I wonder if the book will suggest you can swap out the GAME OVER screen from the various destinies among each other.


----------



## A'koss (May 12, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> On the subject of archmages:
> 
> First, I'd like to register a complaint. Demi- means half. An archmage devotes his existence to mastering a... half-spell?



I believe they're trying to evoke comparisons to the word _Demiurge_, suggesting god-like power...


----------



## malcolm_n (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Well, I guess that my interest ends at Paragon then.  I would say Beowulf is Paragon in the D&D sense, not epic.  While he could wrestle with Grendel, it was no walk in the park.  And.. in the end, he was mortal.  He did die.
> 
> I do think that epic characters can be impressive without having ridiculous ability scores.  They are just deadlier and can survive more things.  What I would have liked to have seen was a progression along the lines of what Gygax seemed to hint at in his old Dragon Magazine articles with his quasi-deities like Muryland.  These characters have just a whiff of the divine in them, but they are not superheroes.
> 
> ...



 He died, yes, but we still remember him to this day.  So, in a sense, he's immortal.  Almost as though he'd achieved his epic destiny.


----------



## Andor (May 12, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Well, I guess that my interest ends at Paragon then.  I would say Beowulf is Paragon in the D&D sense, not epic.  While he could wrestle with Grendel, it was no walk in the park.  And.. in the end, he was mortal.  He did die.




Grendal was a Troll who'd been butchering Vikings by job lots. Beowulf ripped his arm off with his bare hands and nailed it over the door. Then he stuck a broadsword between his teeth and swan across a Norwegian fjord while wearing a suit of chainmail. And that my friend, is not humanly possible. Beowulf was not Batman style "peak of possible human achievment", he was superhuman.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 12, 2008)

A'koss said:
			
		

> I believe they're trying to evoke comparisons to the word _Demiurge_, suggesting god-like power...



Archmages create Prometheans!!! *coughs*

I think either that, or simply D&Dism with "demi" now thanks to things like the demilich, meaning "more powerful"


----------



## Upper_Krust (May 12, 2008)

Hey all! 

Firmly in the camp of those looking at the giant damage and thinking "What!?"

The Hill Giant is dealing about the same as a Level 3 Human Berserker (Brute 3) and less than a Level 7 Bugbear Headreaver (Brute 7).

By my reckoning it should be more akin to an average 22 points of damage* (4d6+8 maybe).

4.5 + 1/2 level x2 (Brute)

The Earth Titan deals almost the same (single attack) damage since its attacks are divided. It should be averaging around 50 damage* 25x2 (3d10+9 maybe)

4.5 + 1/2 Level x4 (Elite and Brute).

Also must admit that after seeing the amazing Orcs on Friday, that the giants were very uninspired in terms of powers as well. Kudos to Rechan for his new giantish powers.


----------



## AntiStateQuixote (May 12, 2008)

*New Hill Giant Encounter Power*

 *Hurl Elemental Earth* (standard; encounter)
_Calling on the power of its Primordial master the hill giant empowers a stone with energy from the Elemental Chaos to pulverize its foe._
Ranged 8/16; +15 vs. AC; 2d6 + 5 thunder damage and ongoing 5 thunder damage (save ends)


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

Brent_Nall said:
			
		

> *Hurl Elemental Earth* (standard; encounter)
> _Calling on the power of its Primordial master the hill giant empowers a stone with energy from the Elemental Chaos to pulverize its foe._
> Ranged 8/16; +15 vs. AC; 2d6 + 5 thunder damage and ongoing 5 thunder damage (save ends)



Hell yeah!

"Did... did that Titan just hadoken us?"


----------



## NaturalZero (May 12, 2008)

Have we seen the stats for other giants yet? The hill giant's abilities become a bit more evocative if only earth giants have the ability to throw boulders now.


----------



## Andor (May 12, 2008)

Is it a bad sign that the "Ain't it cool" preview article intended to show off how cool 4e is going to be ends up generating a long string of "But why didn't they do this" suggestions that make the article look like Solieri trying to impress Mozart with his creation?


----------



## SkidAce (May 12, 2008)

Ok now I'm tired of them spying on me and putting my campaign in their rules.  How am I going to impress my players with my convoluted impressive backstory if they think "oh thats the standard for giants...you big copycat!"

Quote:  "This approach actually returned giants to their Classical roots as creatures embodying natural forces. In keeping with that ancestry, titans also became an elemental race, precursors to and creators of the lesser giants. Now a titan isn’t just a big dude with a ton of spell-like powers, but a powerful leader whose nature is closely tied to an element or kind of energy."

BAH!

/shuffles off to look for hidden cameras in study


----------



## mneme (May 12, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> Some, like the archmage are just a title you claim, until someone smacks you around for getting an overblown ego.





Well, except that the game's sources and early siblings included Vance's archmages (who had deific power) and the mages of Tekumel's College at the End of Time (who, again, were possessed of immortality and magical power vastly in excess of that held by other beings on Tekumel beyond the gods themselves, though they could be killed by foul mischance).  The idea of an "archmage" as a deific wizard who has largely abandoned the world to focus on his or her own designs is the root of the term, and it's rather nice, IMO, to see D&D getting back to it.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

You know. If a _titan_ is just a 16th level elite brute... What sort of monsters are in the Upper portion of the Paragon level, anyhow?


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 12, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> You know. If a _titan_ is just a 16th level elite brute... What sort of monsters are in the Upper portion of the Paragon level, anyhow?



Well who is to say there aren't more powerful Titans? This could have been for example simply a regular soldier during the Primordial Wars and has nothing in comparison to a General Titan.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 12, 2008)

So, will there be a Epic Destiny that will allow a wizard to perform the Ritual of Ashk Ente backwards and allow, say, the founder of the Unseen University to become the aide of Death himself? 

The Giant examples weren't particularly impressive. I was surprised by the low damage output, though even more surprised that the Giants ranged attack actually seems better then its melee attacks. 

I still like the Epic Destinies. The Arch-Mage sounds like a nice exit for a wizard.
I also like the "exit" idea. Returning to an ordinary life after 20-30 levels of experience sounds just unsatisfying and even unbelievalbe - Maybe if you are true neutral, it could work, but if you just are slightly good-aligned, you can't just stand by idly and do nothing if trouble arises. You have to meddle. Better find a way to have this meddling culminate into something final and lasting..


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 12, 2008)

So, will there be a Epic Destiny that will allow a wizard to perform the Ritual of Ashk Ente backwards and allow, say, the founder of the Unseen University to become the aide of Death himself? 

The Giant examples weren't particularly impressive. I was surprised by the low damage output, though even more surprised that the Giants ranged attack actually seems better then its melee attacks. 

I still like the Epic Destinies. The Arch-Mage sounds like a nice exit for a wizard.
I also like the "exit" idea. Returning to an ordinary life after 20-30 levels of experience sounds just unsatisfying and even unbelievalbe - Maybe if you are true neutral, it could work, but if you just are slightly good-aligned, you can't just stand by idly and do nothing if trouble arises. You have to meddle. Better find a way to have this meddling culminate into something final and lasting..


----------



## Felon (May 12, 2008)

NaturalZero said:
			
		

> Have we seen the stats for other giants yet? The hill giant's abilities become a bit more evocative if only earth giants have the ability to throw boulders now.



So, nerfing some other guy can be perceived as buffing the hill giant? OK, D&D is officially an MMO now.


----------



## Rechan (May 12, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> Well who is to say there aren't more powerful Titans? This could have been for example simply a regular soldier during the Primordial Wars and has nothing in comparison to a General Titan.



I'll put it to you like this.

The "General" of anything ain't that scary. Why? Because the _Pit Fiend_, a 26th level monster, is a leader. He's a General. As is the Orc Chieftan, who ain't that scary for level 8 either.

*Brutes* are supposed to be the assbeaters of monsters. They do the damage and make you cry for mommy. Soldiers/leaders/whatever are all about finesse.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 12, 2008)

A bigger Titan with a bigger club then? jk.

Umm, probably see things like Titans who are Avatars of Primordials or some such type of thing.


----------



## frankthedm (May 12, 2008)

Unless human sized greatclubs are 1d8s, those giants are getting short changed. Those large great clubs ought to at least be 1d12 and maybe 2d8.

While i suspected giants would not have thier 3E damage output, the hill giant's has weaker damage with a melee weapon than a first edition ogre! Reducing the rediculous damage of 3rd editions giants is reasoanable, but this one is just a smidge too low for a 13th level foe.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart (May 12, 2008)

This preview has finally started to show people the power range of 4e.  What you'll find is that the power level of characters and monsters in 4e has actually dropped.  Dramatically.  There are a lot of people out there who were complaining that 4e was too high powered, that it was becoming too anime with at-will powerful abilities and the like.

This is the first preview that has really started to hint at the new power scale.  Let me just say that as weak as the Archmage powers seem when compared to 3e, they are VERY powerful in 4e.


----------



## frankthedm (May 12, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> So, nerfing some other guy can be perceived as buffing the hill giant? OK, D&D is officially an MMO now.



That's how it works in all situations. Giving something to one person in a group is funtionally the same as taking away soming from all other members of that group.

plus, the other giants have thier own elements, fire giats may hurl lava at thier foes. Where that lava is being squirted from when a source is not nearby, don't ask  .


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 12, 2008)

You know, now that I think about it, I plan on having lots of traps and hazards with Titan confrontations. 

-I want a Titan to split asunder the ground, I set a trap that causes the PC to fall into the ground (which then becomes a hazard). 

-I want a Titan to cause the mountains to shake and bring down massive boulders, I set rows of boulder traps.

-I want a Titan to completely reshape the landscape, I set tons of different hazards that become known periodically throughout the combat.


----------



## NaturalZero (May 12, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> So, nerfing some other guy can be perceived as buffing the hill giant? OK, D&D is officially an MMO now.




If thugs in game A all have baseball bats and this is found to be boring so you take away the baseball bats from half of them in game B only to give them machine guns, it hardly counts as nerfing the ones without baseball bats.


----------



## ProfessorCirno (May 12, 2008)

Ugh.

My complaint over the previous content was that they tried making early levels "too epic" and it became campy in a bad way in the process.

And now my complaint is that end levels are too bland and lifeless.

The irony is not lost on me.

Also, please, for the love of god, change the name of "Demispell."  I don't think _anyone_ can take it seriously.


----------



## Felon (May 12, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> That's how it works in all situations. Giving something to one person in a group is funtionally the same as taking away soming from all other members of that group.



All situations are not zero-sum scenarios. If I gain $100, is it really the same as taking $100 from several other people? The earth giant's rock throwing either has merit or it doesn't. What some fire giant off in some other dungeon has is tangential at best.


----------



## Dausuul (May 13, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Unless human sized greatclubs are 1d8s, those giants are getting short changed. Those large great clubs ought to at least be 1d12 and maybe 2d8.




Who says those are large greatclubs?  If you look at the picture of the hill giant, you'll notice it's swinging that club in one hand.  I'm guessing it's a regular-sized greatclub and they've gone back to the 3.0 system where weapon size was fixed for all weapons of that type.  (Which in turn means there may be special weapon types for big wielders; a sword that a giant needs two hands to use might be called a giantsword instead of a greatsword.)



			
				frankthedm said:
			
		

> While i suspected giants would not have thier 3E damage output, the hill giant's has weaker damage with a melee weapon than a first edition ogre! Reducing the rediculous damage of 3rd editions giants is reasoanable, but this one is just a smidge too low for a 13th level foe.




It does seem awfully low, I have to admit.  The 4th-level orc berserker (also a non-elite brute) does more damage.  Of course, the giant is a whole lot tougher and has a ranged attack, plus that nasty per-encounter double-attack-knockback-knockdown ability, but it still seems like fighting a band of hill giants would be something of a grind.


----------



## FireLance (May 13, 2008)

Did anybody notice that the giant preview had "ogre bludgeoneers" as level 16 minions?

Perhaps "bludgeoneer" is the brute minion template while "legionnaire" is the soldier minion template.


----------



## keterys (May 13, 2008)

I suspect it's not a template, and more just like the 'orc drudge' and 'orc warrior'. Just a name.


----------



## Sojorn (May 13, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> You know, now that I think about it, I plan on having lots of traps and hazards with Titan confrontations.
> 
> -I want a Titan to split asunder the ground, I set a trap that causes the PC to fall into the ground (which then becomes a hazard).
> 
> ...



Dear Fallen Seraph,

Please stop making us sound awesome. We were trying not to get slaughtered this edition.

Your friends, 
the Earth Titans


----------



## Spatula (May 13, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> Who says those are large greatclubs?  If you look at the picture of the hill giant, you'll notice it's swinging that club in one hand.  I'm guessing it's a regular-sized greatclub and they've gone back to the 3.0 system where weapon size was fixed for all weapons of that type.  (Which in turn means there may be special weapon types for big wielders; a sword that a giant needs two hands to use might be called a giantsword instead of a greatsword.)



What?  The 3.0 hill giant had a "Huge greatclub."  (the human-size one being size Large, as the size in 3.0 was the size of the creature that could use it one-handed without the weapon being considered "light")


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 13, 2008)

Sojorn said:
			
		

> Dear Fallen Seraph,
> 
> Please stop making us sound awesome. We were trying not to get slaughtered this edition.
> 
> ...



Tisk, tisk Titans I give you the opportunity to live life fast and hard like a rock star and you turn it down. Your made of rock and you can roll rocks: rock and roll. This easy-going quiet life does not suit you.


----------



## jeffhartsell (May 13, 2008)

Apparently WOTC did some editing of the preview. They added in the earth shock power that was missing last night. Did they change the name of the 30th-level Archmage power from Demispell to Archspell?


----------



## Lurker37 (May 13, 2008)

jeffhartsell said:
			
		

> Apparently WOTC did some editing of the preview. They added in the earth shock power that was missing last night. Did they change the name of the 30th-level Archmage power from Demispell to Archspell?




What's the point of a spell that summons a pair of every animal?

...

Wait. Sorry. That's Arkspell. My bad.


----------



## Rechan (May 13, 2008)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> This preview has finally started to show people the power range of 4e.  What you'll find is that the power level of characters and monsters in 4e has actually dropped.  Dramatically.  There are a lot of people out there who were complaining that 4e was too high powered, that it was becoming too anime with at-will powerful abilities and the like.
> 
> This is the first preview that has really started to hint at the new power scale.  Let me just say that as weak as the Archmage powers seem when compared to 3e, they are VERY powerful in 4e.



No, I think the Pit Fiend did that.

There was a WHOLE lot of complaining that the pit fiend was doing chump change.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn (May 13, 2008)

Have to say I'm disappointed in the Earth Titans.  An epic creature fluffed as having helped the primordials create the planes gets the equivalent of a 3e 1st level pisonic power?  What's the point of even advancing in 4e, when the powers are this uninspiring?


----------



## AllisterH (May 13, 2008)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey all!
> 
> Firmly in the camp of those looking at the giant damage and thinking "What!?"
> 
> ...





I disagree with this quite strenuously...

A level 16 defender will be hardpressed to have an AC over 30 (Kathra started at 19 and she would gain +8 from level, throw in another +3 from magic et al).

Meaning that the Titan every round will do on average 17 pts of damage which means it can finish off a defender in 7 rounds. Which means to me that two level 16 characters should be able to beat it in 5-6 round.

Which I consider a good battle length.


----------



## Cadfan (May 13, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> So, nerfing some other guy can be perceived as buffing the hill giant? OK, D&D is officially an MMO now.



Yes.  Nerfing one guy does make the other comparatively more interesting.  The alternative is open ended power inflation each edition.

This has been another episode of Serious Answers to Unserious Questions.


----------



## Shroomy (May 13, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> I disagree with this quite strenuously...
> 
> A level 16 defender will be hardpressed to have an AC over 30 (Kathra started at 19 and she would gain +8 from level, throw in another +3 from magic et al).
> 
> ...




And lets not forget that the earth titan will be chucking rocks from 20 squares away for an average of 15 points of damage (plus being dazed).  That's potentially bad news...


----------



## pawsplay (May 13, 2008)

SkidAce said:
			
		

> Ok now I'm tired of them spying on me and putting my campaign in their rules.  How am I going to impress my players with my convoluted impressive backstory if they think "oh thats the standard for giants...you big copycat!"
> 
> Quote:  "This approach actually returned giants to their Classical roots as creatures embodying natural forces. In keeping with that ancestry, titans also became an elemental race, precursors to and creators of the lesser giants. Now a titan isn’t just a big dude with a ton of spell-like powers, but a powerful leader whose nature is closely tied to an element or kind of energy."
> 
> ...




Ja, I was going to do this to giants, and was already preparing my notes when the 4e announcement was made...


----------



## pawsplay (May 13, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> You know. If a _titan_ is just a 16th level elite brute... What sort of monsters are in the Upper portion of the Paragon level, anyhow?




Typhon. The Hundred-Handed. The Tarasque. Really big elementals. The nobility of the Brass City.


----------



## Henry (May 13, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> While i suspected giants would not have thier 3E damage output, the hill giant's has weaker damage with a melee weapon than a first edition ogre! Reducing the rediculous damage of 3rd editions giants is reasoanable, but this one is just a smidge too low for a 13th level foe.




I know it's nitpicky, but a 1e giant did 1d10 damage, or base weapon +2 for strength (which implied that ogres had an 18 nonpercentile strength, instead of the eponymous 18/00). These guys do more than a 1e Ogre.... but not by much. 

However, I do understand why: they want the combats to last 5 or more rounds, not the 2 or 3 that they do under 3e, hence the lower damage. I do love the "Sweep" ability - it's a built in large and in charge, with knockdown. And I find it ironic they do MORE with boulders than with a melee weapon! Before, melee was where a giant wanted to be; now, maybe not?...


----------



## Rechan (May 13, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Typhon. The Hundred-Handed. The Tarasque. Really big elementals. The nobility of the Brass City.



Pretty sure that the Tarrasque is going to be an Epic thing, not a paragon thing. Also, I'm not really keen on "More elementals. Elements elements ELEMENTS!!!!" Oxygen H20 Plasma and Soil get a little old when they're the only things on the block.

And as someone who's never played 2e, I have little hardon for the City of Brass.


----------



## A'koss (May 13, 2008)

Henry said:
			
		

> However, I do understand why: they want the combats to last 5 or more rounds, not the 2 or 3 that they do under 3e, hence the lower damage.



I think a lot of people are still having trouble getting their heads around the fact that encounters are now designed around larger groups of opponents rather just a single opponent. That when you add up all the abilities of the following...

Level 17 Encounter (XP 7,800)

1 earth titan (level 16 elite brute) 
2 hill giants (level 13 brute) 
2 war trolls (level 14 soldier) 
4 ogre bludgeoneers (level 16 minion) 

... you've got plenty of different abilities working their mojo on the battlefield. Judging one non-solo monster is really taking it out the context of the larger encounter they're going to be a part of. 

And further, we still don't know how skills might play a roll on the battlefield. There might be some interesting synergy there we don't know about yet.


----------



## Rechan (May 13, 2008)

Simply put the abilities are just boring. Even if it's a 5 man team, that's still 5 guys with 'hit' 'throw rock' 'step on ground really angrily'. Yawn.


----------



## A'koss (May 13, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Simply put the abilities are just boring. Even if it's a 5 man team, that's still 5 guys with 'hit' 'throw rock' 'step on ground really angrily'. Yawn.



Who says you have to have a 5 giant encounter if you find it boring? 

Why not 2 giants, a rakshasa leader, a frost worg and an acid spitting drake? I'm just pulling these monsters out of a hat, but the point is that with a standard 5 monster enounter (and monsters having a broader range of levels they can threaten) you should have a lot of flexibility in getting what you want out of a fight.


----------



## Shroomy (May 13, 2008)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Who says you have to have a 5 giant encounter if you find it boring?
> 
> Why not 2 giants, a rakshasa leader, a frost worg and an acid spitting drake? I'm just pulling these monsters out of a hat, but the point is that with a standard 5 monster enounter (and monsters having a broader range of levels they can threaten) you should have a lot of flexibility in getting what you want out of a fight.




Yeah, I'm fairly confident the designers don't intend to have the PCs fight five monsters of the exact same type and role.


----------



## Rechan (May 13, 2008)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Who says you have to have a 5 giant encounter if you find it boring?
> 
> Why not 2 giants, a rakshasa leader, a frost worg and an acid spitting drake? I'm just pulling these monsters out of a hat, but the point is that with a standard 5 monster enounter (and monsters having a broader range of levels they can threaten) you should have a lot of flexibility in getting what you want out of a fight.



*Regardless* of what I can put a giant with, it's boring at its base. Orcs feel like orcs, hobgoblins feel like hobgoblins, giants feel like nothing. 

It's like saying "So WHAT if the ham is bland and flavorless? Just put this mayo on there, and this lettuce, and then you won't be able to taste it!" _It's still frickin' bland_; I want to taste it in the first place, otherwise I wouldn't put it in there.

They don't add anything interesting to an encounter, therefore I will not use them.


----------



## FireLance (May 13, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Simply put the abilities are just boring. Even if it's a 5 man team, that's still 5 guys with 'hit' 'throw rock' 'step on ground really angrily'. Yawn.



Suddenly, I had the mental image of five hill giants doing the haka.


----------



## A'koss (May 13, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> REGARDLESS of what I can put a giant with, it's boring at its base. Orcs feel like orcs, hobgoblins feel like goblins, giants feel like nothing.
> 
> It's like saying "So WHAT if the ham is bland and flavorless? Just put this mayo on there, and this lettuce, and then you won't be able to taste it!" _It's still frickin' bland_; I want to taste it in the first place, otherwise I wouldn't put it in there.
> 
> Because they don't add anything interesting to an encounter, I'm just not going to use them.



And I look at as pieces of a puzzle, each monster fulfilling a specific role in a larger encounter, rather than judging them as an island of their own (barring the solos of course). After the initial volleys, the Giants will move in to sweep the PCs together so that the Rakshasa and the Drake can maximize their AoE attacks against them, leaving the Wizard isolated for the Worg to maul. If all goes well, next they'll try to... 

In some ways it might help to look at as building one 3e monster with 8-10+ powers.


----------



## Rechan (May 13, 2008)

I'm well aware of how a 4e encounter functions.

I do not find the giants powers at all evocative or interesting. I'd much rather use a different kind of brute or soldier in a combination encounter, with, simply put, _cooler and more thematic powers_. Or give them different powers that allow them to fulfill their encounter _role_, but to still _look like *giants* when they do it_.


----------



## jeffhartsell (May 13, 2008)

Agree that the hill giant was uninspiring. A cool "pick up and throw foe" recharge ability as a minor action would have been worthy! Also, would have been nice if giants were "scarier", maybe have made them all elites and lesser creatures were their standard and minion mobs.

Even though the hill giant is one of the weakest giants, it still could have had shiny new abilities. Sweep is okay, but that should have a recharge and it should also have a minor attack ability with a recharge. 

Charge in and sweep + throw. Set recharge on both to be different numbers and have a gap so that in some rounds it can only basic attack, but some rounds it sweeps and other rounds it throws people around (AND throw foes at other people as a living rock   )

I think 4e is headed in the right direction, but the R&D team does need to really treat each mob with lots of TLC.  If it is not cool enough to do something special, kick the creature out.

Giants should be freakin' bad mofos, like with a capital M.


----------



## jeffhartsell (May 13, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> I'm well aware of how a 4e encounter functions.
> 
> I do not find the giants powers at all evocative or interesting. I'd much rather use a different kind of brute or soldier in a combination encounter, with, simply put, _cooler and more thematic powers_. Or give them different powers that allow them to fulfill their encounter _role_, but to still _look like *giants* when they do it_.




QFT. That hill giant should be more inspiring and new. "Snatch and throw at enemy" would have been sweet as.


----------



## Rechan (May 13, 2008)

As an example of what I mean, I'll repost my ideas for the giant abilities:

[sblock]Hill giant: 

Savage Haymaker (Standard Encounter Recharge   )
Reach 2; +15 vs Fort, 1d10+12, opponent is weaked (save ends)

Uprooting Swing (Standard At Will)
Reach 2; +15 vs AC, 1d10+5 and push 3.

For Earth Titans:

Stomp (Standard Encounter)
Reach 3; +20 vs. Reflex, 2d10+12, enemy is stunned, prone and weakened (save ends).

Rain of Stone (Standard Encounter)
Ranged 15 Area Burst 1; 18 vs. Reflex; 2d10+10, enemy is dazed, pushed 2

Pick Up (Standard, At Will)
Reach 3; +20 vs Reflex. Treat as regular grapple. Followup: Squeeze (+20 vs. Fort; 3d10+5) or Hurl (Push 8, 2d10+15)

Rending Bedrock Wave (Standard Encounter Recharge  )
Close Blast 5; +20 vs. Reflex, 2d10+3, enemy is knocked prone, pushed 4.[/sblock]


----------



## A'koss (May 13, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> I'm well aware of how a 4e encounter functions.
> 
> I do not find the giants powers at all evocative or interesting. I'd much rather use a different kind of brute or soldier in a combination encounter, with, simply put, _cooler and more thematic powers_. Or give them different powers that allow them to fulfill their encounter _role_, but to still _look like *giants* when they do it_.



Fair enough, but I think they're appropriately slotted as uncomplicated, commonly encountered brute foes. I can foresee a 4e Against the Giants style adventure somewhere down the line and I can see why they might not want the rank-and-file giants to be too tough. And who knows, there may be more flavors of Hill Giant in the MM...


----------



## Majoru Oakheart (May 13, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Simply put the abilities are just boring. Even if it's a 5 man team, that's still 5 guys with 'hit' 'throw rock' 'step on ground really angrily'. Yawn.



And that's why you don't use nothing but Brutes, Soldiers, and Minions either.  Unless you want the encounter to be mostly smash in people's heads.


----------



## AllisterH (May 13, 2008)

A'koss said:
			
		

> I think a lot of people are still having trouble getting their heads around the fact that encounters are now designed around larger groups of opponents rather just a single opponent. That when you add up all the abilities of the following...
> 
> Level 17 Encounter (XP 7,800)
> 
> ...




I'm sorry but I'm with Rechan on this one. I'm fine with the damage based on what I think the AC and HP of an equivalent level PC will be but the the Hill giant didn't make me go "woah, I like what they did".

The orcs, gnolls, hobgoblins, kobolds all have great signature abilities that scream, "This is a X", from the kobold's shifty movement to the pack attack of the gnolls.

The Earth titan and his lesser cousin?Eh, not so much IMO.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 13, 2008)

This sorta plays a part with my traps/hazards comment about the Titans. But when it comes to Giants it is sorta good they have just basic style attacks, since I always imagined them to be the kind that normally simply attack straight on, unless they have environmental means that they adapt to.

So things like tearing up trees, shoving rocks down cliff-sides, etc. These aren't really options handled well by powers since their much more situational.

I also have always imagined them to gather things and use that to their advantage. For example this picture of a giant:

[sblock]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/sblock]

I imagine he would use the anchor wrapped around the tree to do additional harm.


----------



## keterys (May 13, 2008)

Wow. That's a picture.


----------



## ruleslawyer (May 13, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> As an example of what I mean, I'll repost my ideas for the giant abilities:



Those rock! I will definitely pick those up for my 4e games.


----------



## Merlin the Tuna (May 13, 2008)

jeffhartsell said:
			
		

> QFT. That hill giant should be more inspiring and new. "Snatch and throw at enemy" would have been sweet as.



Why would they throw the enemy?  It'd make way more sense to just crush them in their big, meaty paws.

I'll probably end up making their encounter ability a recharge 6 ability, but that's about it.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 13, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> Their not meant to fight each other though...




Oh yes, I know that 

It is only marginally more sensible than having minions 'fight' each other... but until I get my hands on the PHB and monster manual I can't really work out 'realistic' scenarios.

I do think it illustrates Voss's concern however - that much increased hp and much reduced damage compared to 3e may result in surprisingly long combats, which might end up 'dragging' a little


----------



## Baron Opal (May 13, 2008)

Jer said:
			
		

> From the D&D Master Set - published in 1984 I think.
> 
> Seriously - this entire entry on Epic Destinies completely brought back memories of reading through the "Immortality Paths" section of the Master Set when I was a wee bairn.




Oh, good. I wasn't the first to notice this.


----------



## UngeheuerLich (May 13, 2008)

Hmmh... what i curently don´t like is that it seems monsters tend to get more hp than the average PC and do less damage... wasn´t it possible that both, PCs and monsters tend to do a comparable amount of damage so that HPs are roughly equivalent?


----------



## Gort (May 13, 2008)

UngeheuerLich said:
			
		

> Hmmh... what i curently don´t like is that it seems monsters tend to get more hp than the average PC and do less damage... wasn´t it possible that both, PCs and monsters tend to do a comparable amount of damage so that HPs are roughly equivalent?



Quite possible, I'd say. Monsters do less damage than players, but they have numbers on their side to make up for that, meaning they also have more HP. Players have lots of powers so that they can deal with the higher HP.

Seems to work.


----------



## keterys (May 13, 2008)

Monsters deal less damage and fight things with less hit points.

PCs deal more damage and fight things with more hit points.

Okay, that seems all in ratio, and reasonable. There's probably good reason for it - if you look at the old DDM RPG stats, monsters used to have a lot less hit points for instance.


----------



## Ecaiki (May 13, 2008)

Something that just occurred to me Re: the Archmage.

The crowning ability of the destiny is to make a daily power usable per encounter, doesn't sound like much alone.... however we haven't seen even a hint of epic feats yet.  My thinking is there could very well be a feat that makes an encounter power usable more then once, so a daily becomes encounter, then becomes 2x encounter.

So if we take a spell such as Time Stop we can make it per encounter, an incredible power boost already... except another feat allows 2 uses of it and BAM your archmage is suddenly a lot more supreme wizard.  

Now add on top of that the ability to swap that daily power by taking a quick refresher from Mr. spellbook and your level 30 wizard is a very scary creature, even more so since once per day he can die and STILL cast Time Stop twice!

My logic on all this is that 4th ed seems a lot more about synergy between powers and feats rather then front loading a feat to be godly, so it will require a lot more outside the box thinking to achieve 3e style strength.


----------



## ForumFerret (May 13, 2008)

I'm very much looking forward to seeing 4e's version of Greater Anyspell... re-use any xth level spell you know, as a Daily, which you then demote to an Encounter via Shape Spell, and poof: there's your master of the mystic arts, able to utilize nearly any spell in the game every 5 minutes.


----------



## MindWanderer (May 13, 2008)

Zil said:
			
		

> Well, I guess that my interest ends at Paragon then.  I would say Beowulf is Paragon in the D&D sense, not epic.... in the end, he was mortal.  He did die.



"Immortality," in the Epic Destiny sense, doesn't necessarily mean you don't die.  We're discussing the dude a thousand years after he lived.  I call that immortal.







			
				keterys said:
			
		

> Monsters deal less damage and fight things with less hit points.
> 
> PCs deal more damage and fight things with more hit points.
> 
> Okay, that seems all in ratio, and reasonable. There's probably good reason for it - if you look at the old DDM RPG stats, monsters used to have a lot less hit points for instance.



Reminds me of Final Fantasy games.  I hated Charm/Confusion in Final Fantasy IV: When applied to a monster, it would deal 1 point of damage to itself or one of its allies, out of the 100,000 HP it had.  When applied to Rydia, she would cast Quake on the party, dealing 9999 damage to everyone, out of no more than 9000 or so.  Yeah.


----------



## NHBaggesen (May 13, 2008)

Ultimatecalibur said:
			
		

> Just a question for all of those posters who are complaining about Earth Shock and that the Earth Giants throw rocks: What sort of abilities do you expect Earth Giants to have?




To start off with a quote from one of my favorite movies:

Sir Didymus: My brother! Canst thou summon up the very rocks? 
Ludo: Sure. Rocks friends. 

So that would be one ability - "Summon rock". 

Then we have earthquakes. Sure Earth Shock does a bit of that, but how about forming crevasses and chasm as a form of battlefield control. (Maybe a controller type Earth Giant will be able to do this).

Unmovable. Their size as well as their ties to the earth would be obvious reasons to make them resistant to being pushed and pulled.

Juggernaut. Similarly their immense size could be used to make it hard/impossible to stop them when they shift etc.

Slapping people around. The Hill Giants have their swipe, but IMNSHO giants could have a lot more of that.

Earthbond. Being healed, or never counting as bloodied, or getting improved saving throws or a similar 'lifeforce' when they are in contact with the earth.

Grappling. Picking up the littl' uns' is a Giant standard. Maybe it will be covered by some basic grappling rules, but then mention it in the tactics section.

Intimidation. I know they can always use it untrained, but why not put it on their skill list. The roaring giant panicking the horses is cool.

Those where just e few off the top of my head. And I'm not saying they would have to have all these abilitites (though in general I think it would be nice if 4E monster where less 'one trick ponies' that do the same verytime you meet them), but a bit more spice would be nice. Or maybe I'd just like to see a solo giant, because to me giants have always been great solo opponents, not something I've thrown at the players in droves.


----------



## ShockMeSane (May 13, 2008)

The great irony here of course is that it isn't like Hill Giants did anything other than swing their club and throw rocks at things in 3.x. I mean, this isn't exactly a step backwards.

As far as Titans go, yea, the preview one is a little dissapointing for sure. But, I imagine that the most powerful servants of the primordials were not level 16 elites or whatever. If there aren't higher level Giants available I'd be shocked.


----------



## UngeheuerLich (May 13, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> Monsters deal less damage and fight things with less hit points.
> 
> PCs deal more damage and fight things with more hit points.
> 
> Okay, that seems all in ratio, and reasonable. There's probably good reason for it - if you look at the old DDM RPG stats, monsters used to have a lot less hit points for instance.




So why wasn´t the Damage of players toned down (maybe a bit difficult) or Player HP on par with monster HP, so that monsters can do double damage...

Hill giants are a bit "weak"... at least their club should do more damage than their thrown rocks...


----------



## ProfessorCirno (May 13, 2008)

ShockMeSane said:
			
		

> The great irony here of course is that it isn't like Hill Giants did anything other than swing their club and throw rocks at things in 3.x. I mean, this isn't exactly a step backwards.




Ye,s but 3.x didn't promise anything else .  Giants were just that - very large creatures.

This preview talks about how awe inspiring and epic and amazing the giants are, and then they give...this?


----------



## Upper_Krust (May 13, 2008)

Howdy AllisterH! 



			
				AllisterH said:
			
		

> I disagree with this quite strenuously...




So, in your opinion then, a Hill Giant should only deal the same damage as a Level 3 Human Berseker and less damage than a Level 7 Bugbear Headreaver...is that correct?

I mean I know damage in 4E is lessened but there has to be some verisimilitude here surely.



> A level 16 defender will be hardpressed to have an AC over 30 (Kathra started at 19 and she would gain +8 from level, throw in another +3 from magic et al).
> 
> Meaning that the Titan every round will do on average 17 pts of damage *which means it can finish off a defender in 7 rounds.* Which means to me that two level 16 characters should be able to beat it in 5-6 round.
> 
> Which I consider a good battle length.




Brutes are meant to be the heavy-hitters. Engaging one in melee should be a bad move for all but the most accomplished defenders.


----------



## Wolfspider (May 13, 2008)

ShockMeSane said:
			
		

> The great irony here of course is that it isn't like Hill Giants did anything other than swing their club and throw rocks at things in 3.x.




What's 3rd edition got to do with it?


----------



## Gargazon (May 13, 2008)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> So, in your opinion then, a Hill Giant should only deal the same damage as a Level 3 Human Berseker and less damage than a Level 7 Bugbear Headreaver...is that correct?
> 
> I mean I know damage in 4E is lessened but there has to be some verisimilitude here surely.




First of all the Bugbear Headreaver stat-block I imagine you are referring to (as I'm pretty sure the actual MM stats haven't been leaked) comes from a DDM stat card, which dates from a time where monsters were designed with 'less hp, more damage' in mind. The one in the MM is probably more reasonable.

As for the giant's damage, I don't see the problem. A gang of Hill Giant is still going to pummel the 13th level party. I imagine the Defender can only keep one or two busy while the other three throw rocks and kill the squishier characters.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Brutes are meant to be the heavy-hitters. Engaging one in melee should be a bad move for all but the most accomplished defenders.




No, a Defender should be the only character that CAN stand toe-to-toe with the brute. If the Earth Titan was facing a character of a different role I imagine he'd turn them into a fine paste in 3-4 rounds.

And just something else - if you do make the Sweeping Club into a recharge power, does this not open up the sport of PC tennis to the Hill Giants?


----------



## AllisterH (May 13, 2008)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Howdy AllisterH!
> 
> 
> 
> So, in your opinion then, a Hill Giant should only deal the same damage as a Level 3 Human Berseker and less damage than a Level 7 Bugbear Headreaver...is that correct?.




Not so sure about the Hill Giant myself. Seriously, read the Tactics section and that doesn't really sound like a Brute (the Hill Giant uses rocks UNTIL the OPPONENT closes in?). I wonder if the Hill Giant is an "exception based design" creature in that it has the defenses of a Brute, but the long-range power of Artillery....



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Brutes are meant to be the heavy-hitters. Engaging one in melee should be a bad move for all but the most accomplished defenders.




The titan's fine though...Fighters and the paladin will have the highest AC (both the DDXP and the Shadowfell have an AC of 20 at 1st level) and the highest HP and a Titan can still take them out either one in 7 rounds...

The other classes though? Most of the other classes are looking at an AC at least 3-4 lower than the defenders and I'd be surprised if any break 100 HP at that point.

A difference of 3-4 in their AC jumps up the average damage from the Titan to 22-24 pts per round and thus killing them off in 4-5 rounds. Heh, basically, a Titan could probably kill 2 non-defenders in the time it takes the Titan to kill off one Defender...


----------



## keterys (May 13, 2008)

Can we stop mentioning the Bugbear's RPG stats (which are from a DDM card and wrong) and use something from the actual monster manual for the example?

I mean, we've got gricks and gnolls, and they illustrate the point too


----------



## Stalker0 (May 13, 2008)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> What's 3rd edition got to do with it?




About as much as love

I do think the giants seem a tad bland, but on the other hand you don't want every monster to be chock full of powers and the like, sometimes you want a monster the dm can just sit back, relax, and beat his players into submission. I agree that these low damages seem very low, but we aren't accustomed to the 4e paradigm yet.

To me, 5 giants would be scary mainly for their rock throwing, as it basically lets them target any one of the characters at the same time, a tactic even giants would probably use. 5 rocks thrown at the wizard's head is likely to make for a bad day.


----------



## Fanaelialae (May 13, 2008)

IMO, if you're going to compare orcs and giants, you should probably use the same types.  The orc berserker and Hill giant are both basic brutes:

[sblock]Orc Berserker Level 4 Brute
Medium natural humanoid XP 175
Initiative +3 Senses Perception +2; low-light vision
HP 66; Bloodied 33; see also warrior’s surge
AC 15; Fortitude 17, Refl ex 13, Will 12
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
m Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+8 vs. AC; 1d12 + 5 damage (crit 1d12 + 17).
M Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter)
✦ Healing, Weapon
The orc berserker makes a melee basic attack and regains 16 hit
points.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Intimidate +6
Str 20 (+7) Dex 13 (+3) Wis 10 (+2)
Con 16 (+5) Int 8 (+1) Cha 9 (+1)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe

Hill Giant
Level 13 Brute
Large natural humanoid (giant)
XP 800
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +7
HP 159; Bloodied 79
AC 25; Fortitude 27, Reflex 21, Will 23
Speed 8
Greatclub (standard; at-will)  WeaponReach 2; +15 vs. AC; 1d10 + 5 damage.
Sweeping Club (standard; encounter)  Weapon
The hill giant makes a greatclub attack against two Medium or smaller targets; on a hit, the target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone.
Hurl Rock (standard; at-will) Ranged 8/16; +15 vs. AC; 2d6 + 5 damage.
Alignment Chaotic evil 
Languages Giant
Skills Athletics +16 
Str 21 (+11) Dex 8 (+5) Wis 12 (+7) Con 19 (+10) Int 7 (+4) Cha 9 (+5) 
Equipment hide armor, greatclub[/sblock]

And the Orc Bloodrager to the Earth Titan (both elite brutes):

[sblock]Orc Bloodrager Level 7 Elite Brute
Medium natural humanoid XP 600
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
HP 194; Bloodied 97; see also warrior’s surge
AC 21; Fortitude 22, Refl ex 19, Will 17
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
Action Points 1
m Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+11 vs. AC; 1d12 + 5 damage (crit 1d12 + 17); see also blood for
blood.
M Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter)
✦ Healing, Weapon
The orc bloodrager makes a melee basic attack and regains 48
hit points.
MWounded Retaliation (immediate reaction, when hit by an
adjacent enemy; at-will)
The orc bloodrager makes a melee basic attack against the
enemy.
Blood for Blood ✦ Healing, Weapon
When it hits a bloodied enemy, the orc bloodrager deals an extra
5 damage and regains 10 hit points.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +11, Intimidate +8
Str 20 (+8) Dex 15 (+5) Wis 11 (+3)
Con 17 (+6) Int 9 (+2) Cha 10 (+3)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe

Earth Titan
Level 16 Elite Brute
Huge elemental humanoid (earth, giant)
XP 2,800
Initiative +7
Senses Perception +9
HP 384; Bloodied 192
AC 31; Fortitude 33, Reflex 27, Will 28
Immune petrification
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6
Action Points 1 
Slam (standard; at-will)Reach 3; +20 vs. AC; 2d10 + 6 damage.
Double Attack (standard; at-will)The earth titan makes two slam attacks.
Hurl Rock (standard; at-will) Ranged 20; +18 vs. Reflex; 2d8 + 6 damage, and the target is dazed (save ends).
Earth Shock (standard; encounter) Close burst 2; +18 vs. Fortitude; 2d10 + 6 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of the earth titan’s next turn. Miss: Half damage, and the target is not stunned.
Alignment Chaotic evil 
Languages Giant, Primordial
Skills Athletics +19 
Str 23 (+14) Dex 8 (+7) Wis 12 (+9) Con 22 (+14) Int 11 (+8) Cha 13 (+9)[/sblock]

The Hill Giant does indeed do less damage than the Berserker, but I expect that this is because he is one handing a (human) greatclub whereas the orc is two-handing a greataxe.  If you replaced his greatclub with a larger weapon I imagine the discrepancy would be fixed (although I am curious as to the reasoning behind it, assuming it wasn't just an oversight).  My best guess would be that the hill giant, unlike the berserker, has a ranged attack as well.

The Titan does do significantly more damage than the Bloodrager though.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 13, 2008)

Henry said:
			
		

> However, I do understand why: they want the combats to last 5 or more rounds, not the 2 or 3 that they do under 3e, hence the lower damage. I do love the "Sweep" ability - it's a built in large and in charge, with knockdown.




Then again, Human Guard (1st level soldier). Yes, that's 1st level

has Powerful Strike (standard, recharge 5,6)
Reach2, +8 vs AC, 1d10+6 damage and target is knocked prone.

So something that the giant can do once per encounter, the 1st level soldier can do every time it recharges?

Something is a bit wacky in the state of Denmark here.

Surely the giant ought to at least get a recharge on his ability to give him a little flavour!

Cheers


----------



## Upper_Krust (May 13, 2008)

Hey guys! 

General response to the topic at hand.

*I think the problem with the Hill Giant's damage is simple. Its a typo. I am convinced it should be dealing 2d10+5.*

The Hill Giant is being 'out muscled' (if you'll forgive) by pretty much every monster of a roughly similar level (whether Lurker, Skirmisher, Soldier or whatever). Brutes should not be dealing less damage than monsters of different roles of the same (or roughly similar) level. It simply doesn't make any sense dealing 1d10+5.

I have boiled the damages of all the monsters down to a bare minimum and it looks to me as though the following is the standard design parameter (give or take a point). I had initially supposed that Brutes were dealing double damage off a Base 4.5, but further study shows that probably isn't the case.

Brutes: Base 9 + 1/2 level average damage
Soldiers: Base 8 + 1/2 level
Artillery: Base 7 + 1/2 level
Lurker: Base 6 + 1/2 level
Skirmisher: Base 5 + 1/2 level 
Controller: Base 4 + 1/2 level

To pick up on a few other points:

The Hill Giant is not wielding a human sized greatclub in one hand. Its obviously wielding a giant sized greatclub. Theres no reason why it would be wielding a human sized greatclub, giants never have in the past, the illustration shows both Hill Giants with two hands on their greatclubs. Giants use two-handed weapons...thats what they do! 

The Earth Titan, using its natural weaponry would therefore deal slightly more damage with a single punch than the Hill Giant would using a Large Greatclub.


----------



## Jhaelen (May 13, 2008)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> What's 3rd edition got to do with it?



I've seen you asking that question lots of times but it's about the first time I believe it's indeed the right question to ask.

IMHO, after having seen a couple of very well conceived, evocative 4E monsters like the orcs, expectations have increased _a lot_. Many have already forgotten how incredibly boring some monsters have been in 3E or older incarnations of the game.

One of the things I never liked in 1E and 2E was the inflation of (mechanically!) almost identical monsters. Every campaign setting, terrain, climate and plane had it's own variant of a common theme. Often the only difference was their appearance and background.

3E was a bit better in that regard since there were more ways to put a unique touch to them (feats, skills, ability modifiers, etc.).

Now, 4E comes along and has signature abilities for every kind of monster that suggest different tactics or even make an encounter a unique experience. I think even critics of 4E will have to admit that it changed the way what is to be considered a well-designed monster.

I also think it's an excellent sign that some imaginative individuals can come up with better or at least more evocative signature abilities for monsters. To me that's proof the decision to have separate rules for npcs/monsters was a good one - a decision that I considered a bad one after it was initially announced.

I can hardly wait until I've finally got those books!


----------

