# Medium characters grappling large creatures?



## Gwarok (Aug 21, 2018)

Ok, I'm sure this has been asked and answered somewhere, but I'm bad at looking up old threads.   The grapple rules say you can attempt it on creatures one size larger, but is there a penalty stated somewhere or some advantage to being bigger than your opponent?  Seems like it would grant advantage, and I seem to recall some ability or feat that said something like "larger creatures no longer automatically succeed on escaping your grapple" but I can't remember where I saw that.   Thanks.


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## Yunru (Aug 21, 2018)

Nope.
There was the Grappler feat, but that was just sloppy proof-reading since the rule it refereed to had previously been dropped and was, iirc, about creatures two sizes larger than you.


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 21, 2018)

If a character attempts to grapple a large (or bigger) creature they are attempting to ride on it.


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## Yunru (Aug 21, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> If a character attempts to grapple a large (or bigger) creature they are attempting to ride on it.




Citation, etc.
Because not according to the core rules. Or the DMG variants, those start at Giant.


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 21, 2018)

Yunru said:


> Citation, etc.
> Because not according to the core rules. Or the DMG variants, those start at Giant.




Citation: me just now.

I'm the DM I make the rules.


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## Oofta (Aug 21, 2018)

There are no official rules for penalties or bonuses for size differences that I know of.  Personally I grant advantage if there are more than 2 size categories different, but that's a house rule.


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## Yunru (Aug 21, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Citation: me just now.
> 
> I'm the DM I make the rules.




You're not his DM so... no?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 21, 2018)

5e grappling rules are awful.


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 21, 2018)

I can't remember an edition that handled grappling well.


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## Oofta (Aug 21, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I can't remember an edition that handled grappling well.




I was just going to say the same thing.  I had a grappler in 3.5 that was completely broken even at fairly low levels without even trying. I wasn't the only one, it didn't even take a great deal of system expertise or min/maxing.

Whether or not grappling being so inconsequential in all but a few edge cases in 5E is personal preference of course.


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## robus (Aug 21, 2018)

Oofta said:


> There are no official rules for penalties or bonuses for size differences that I know of.  Personally I grant advantage if there are more than 2 size categories different, but that's a house rule.




Hmm - I think I would go with advantage if the grabber is a size larger and disadvantage if there's a greater size difference than that (because relatively tiny things are hard to catch  )


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## Oofta (Aug 21, 2018)

robus said:


> Hmm - I think I would go with advantage if the grabber is a size larger and disadvantage if there's a greater size difference than that (because relatively tiny things are hard to catch  )




I think at some point the size might be too big, but I'm thinking grappling a medium size dog vs grappling a small dog for relative sizes.  Assuming they are both as fast and roughly as strong, it seems to me that the small dog is going to be easier to hold simply because you can grab a greater percentage of dog.

Of course not applying any penalty/bonus and simply following the rules works too.  It rarely comes up in my games.


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## pming (Aug 21, 2018)

Hiya!

So, Medium vs. Large? hehe... Personally, I think Disadvantage as a best scenario. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRbcNbr_mNg

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## WaterRabbit (Aug 21, 2018)

I think any situation involving grappling will require at least some common sense.  Take for example a human grappling a brown bear.  A brown bear is large vs. human that is medium.  A human could grapple it in the sense of holding a limb or perhaps a choke hold.  However, there is simply no way a human is going to move the bear as part of the grapple.  It is more likely that the human will just be moved by the bear.

If you take a super strong human with a strength score of 20, they can push or drag 600 lbs.  A small brown bear is going to be around 400 lbs, while a large one is going to be 800-1200 lbs.

As a DM, I tend to give disadvantage to a smaller grappler going against a large one in general.  I definitely do not allow a grappler to move a creature beyond its own strength.

Even though most people interpret the Grappler feat to be in error, it is probably a correct ruling to allow creatures one size larger to automatically succeed on checks to escape the grapple -- at the very minimum they should have advantage on escaping the grapple or allow them to attempt to escape as a bonus action.


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## Yunru (Aug 21, 2018)

WaterRabbit said:


> I think any situation involving grappling will require at least some common sense.  Take for example a human grappling a brown bear.  A brown bear is large vs. human that is medium.  A human could grapple it in the sense of holding a limb or perhaps a choke hold.  However, there is simply no way a human is going to move the bear as part of the grapple.  It is more likely that the human will just be moved by the bear.
> 
> If you take a super strong human with a strength score of 20, they can push or drag 600 lbs.  A small brown bear is going to be around 400 lbs, while a large one is going to be 800-1200 lbs.



It's not about strength, it's about leverage. And strength because of course it is, D&D.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 22, 2018)

The 5e Grappling rules while simplistic are also very easy to use. So I use them.

If it means a PC can drag something it really shouldn't be able to, I just go with it. It doesn't break verisimilitude for me any more than a Banish spell would. It's just heroes figure out a way to do heroic things. 

I'd rather spend my time coming up with a cool reason why it worked, rather than tell my player "No that doesn't work".


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## The Crimson Binome (Aug 22, 2018)

Remember, by default, you can't even attempt to grapple a creature that's more than one size larger than you. Halflings can grapple humans, and humans can grapple ogres, but a halfling will never succeed at grappling an ogre. As long as you're only grappling a human, though, both halflings and humans are on equal footing.

It's a lot like the rules for heavy weapons. Halflings can use longswords, and humans can use greatswords, but a halfling can never use a greatsword. As long as you're only using a longsword, though, both halflings and humans are equally capable.

If nothing else, it's fairly consistent (within the context it's designed to represent).


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## CapnZapp (Aug 22, 2018)

The secret is: any rule that bypasses hit points is inherently unbalanced (either too good or too weak; never perfectly balanced).


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## WaterRabbit (Aug 22, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> The 5e Grappling rules while simplistic are also very easy to use. So I use them.
> 
> If it means a PC can drag something it really shouldn't be able to, I just go with it. It doesn't break verisimilitude for me any more than a Banish spell would. It's just heroes figure out a way to do heroic things.
> 
> I'd rather spend my time coming up with a cool reason why it worked, rather than tell my player "No that doesn't work".




Sure, but the grapple rules don't override the rules on how much a person can drag.


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## WaterRabbit (Aug 22, 2018)

Yunru said:


> It's not about strength, it's about leverage. And strength because of course it is, D&D.




Totally agree here, but leverage is a bit harder to work out as it is position based and D&D doesn't have rules granular enough nor is a round granular enough to account for leverage easily.  Giving large creatures advantage is a nod to that.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 22, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I can't remember an edition that handled grappling well.




Despite some issue 3.x rules were at least not worthless IME, but I never had a player focus on that so maybe I just didn't see the larger flaws.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 22, 2018)

WaterRabbit said:


> Sure, but the grapple rules don't override the rules on how much a person can drag.




But mass is not part of a stat block, and I'm not going calculate it.

Edit: There's also the old Specific Beats General rule that 5e embraces. Which do you find more specific, Grappling rules or Dragging rules? Which do you find more General?


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## Cap'n Kobold (Aug 22, 2018)

No advantage for a size difference in general: larger creatures are generally stronger, so are generally better at grappling. 
It takes an exceptionally strong human, or a highly skilled one to be able to match even a normal ogre for example.

I don't generally worry about weight limits when moving while grappling. Getting someone who you have in an armlock to go where you want is rarely a matter of having to drag their dead weight.


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## Greenstone.Walker (Aug 22, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> Edit: There's also the old Specific Beats General rule that 5e embraces. Which do you find more specific, Grappling rules or Dragging rules? Which do you find more General?




Neither. Or maybe both. There's no conflict between the two.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 23, 2018)

Greenstone.Walker said:


> Neither. Or maybe both. There's no conflict between the two.




If something exceeds the weight I can drag I *can't *drag it by the Lifting and Carrying rules. If I have a creature grappled I *can *drag it according to the grapple rules.

So If I have a creature grappled that weighs more than 30 times my strength score I both *can *and *can't *drag it.


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## Oofta (Aug 23, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> If something exceeds the weight I can drag I *can't *drag it by the Lifting and Carrying rules. If I have a creature grappled I *can *drag it according to the grapple rules.
> 
> So If I have a creature grappled that weighs more than 30 times my strength score I both *can *and *can't *drag it.




Exactly.  Which causes a singularity as the universe cannot handle a potential conflict in rules and the players are sucked into a vortex of contradiction.

Or it never really comes up because who knows how much an ogre weighs and even if we did* the DM would make a ruling and move on.  Whichever.  

*_yes I know you could do a cube mass calculation but then the ogre's bones couldn't hold him up.  So does he have supernaturally dense bones that would be even heavier?  Bones made of something like titanium so he doesn't really weigh as much?  Questions, questions, questions. _


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 23, 2018)

Oofta said:


> Exactly.  Which causes a singularity as the universe cannot handle a potential conflict in rules and the players are sucked into a vortex of contradiction.
> 
> Or it never really comes up because who knows how much an ogre weighs and even if we did* the DM would make a ruling and move on.  Whichever.
> 
> *_yes I know you could do a cube mass calculation but then the ogre's bones couldn't hold him up.  So does he have supernaturally dense bones that would be even heavier?  Bones made of something like titanium so he doesn't really weigh as much?  Questions, questions, questions. _




Bingo. It's a perfect case for a DM to make a ruling and move on. As a player I wouldn't care if they ruled one way or the other as long as they were consistent so I would know for the future.


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## DEFCON 1 (Aug 23, 2018)

If you have so many Large creatures that keep getting their movement dropped to 0 via grapple and that is actually causing you so much grief in your fights and encounter design that you feel like you now need to make a house rule so that it doesn't happen so often anymore...

...it's probably just easier to vary up which monsters you are using.  Cause odds are good you're suffering from more issues than just speed 0 Large creatures.


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## devincutler (Aug 24, 2018)

Cap'n Kobold said:


> No advantage for a size difference in general: larger creatures are generally stronger, so are generally better at grappling.
> It takes an exceptionally strong human, or a highly skilled one to be able to match even a normal ogre for example.
> 
> I don't generally worry about weight limits when moving while grappling. Getting someone who you have in an armlock to go where you want is rarely a matter of having to drag their dead weight.




The problem is that the modifier is so small compared to the die being rolled, that the stronger creature's strength doesn't matter that much. Let's compare a Str 19 ogre with a Str 10 peasant. The ogre has a +4, so the peasant will successfully grapple the ogre 30% of the time. Now take a reasonably strong human (Str 14) and you are looking at 38.25%. Throw in a low level proficiency in Athletics and you are at 47.5%. 


Advantage and disadvantage for size difference is a good solution IMO.


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## Greenstone.Walker (Aug 24, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> If something exceeds the weight I can drag I *can't *drag it by the Lifting and Carrying rules. If I have a creature grappled I *can *drag it according to the grapple rules.



I don't read it that way. I read it as saying "carrying or dragging a grappled creature is an option but you still have to follow the rules for carrying and dragging." Where are the rules for carrying and dragging? Earlier in the PHB.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 24, 2018)

And that's an ok way to rule, but I'd hesitate to call it the right way since there is nowhere in the rules that say that rules earlier in the book supercede rules later in the book.

There is however "specifics beats general".


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 24, 2018)

I think it you would need very long rules to cover every eventuality - grappling a gelatinous cube?


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## WaterRabbit (Aug 24, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> And that's an ok way to rule, but I'd hesitate to call it the right way since there is nowhere in the rules that say that rules earlier in the book supercede rules later in the book.
> 
> There is however "specifics beats general".




Uh, no.

Exceptions Supersede General Rules.  When an exception and a general rule disagree, the exception wins.  There isn't an exception in the grapple rules on how much a character can drag or lift.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 24, 2018)

WaterRabbit said:


> Exceptions Supersede General Rules.  When an exception and a general rule disagree, the exception wins.  There isn't an exception in the grapple rules on how much a character can drag or lift.




The Carrying rules say I *cannot *drag something larger that 30 times my strength score, but the grappling rules say I *can *move a grappled creature but at half my speed.



> Moving a Grappled Creature: When you move, you can drag or carry the Grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.




So whether I can or can not will depend on a ruling on the GM.

I can see it going either way, and wouldn't care as long as the DM is consistent. What I don't agree with is the Carrying rules somehow having precedence because they occur earlier in the book. I don't think that argument has any merit.


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## cooperjer (Aug 24, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> The Carrying rules say I *cannot *drag something larger that 30 times my strength score, but the grappling rules say I *can *move a grappled creature but at half my speed.
> 
> So whether I can or can not will depend on a ruling on the GM.
> 
> I can see it going either way, and wouldn't care as long as the DM is consistent. What I don't agree with is the Carrying rules somehow having precedence because they occur earlier in the book. I don't think that argument has any merit.




I'm away from my book, but does the drag rules specifically use words that would indicate they apply to a creature?  In my opinion, Crawford edits the book in such a way that he might use words like items, or objects, etc., which in his mind are not creatures.  The drag rules might not apply at all to interaction with creatures if this is the case.

With respect to grapple of large creatures, there is usually a significant strength difference that helps compensate.  However, most creatures are not proficient in athletics or acrobatics to avoid the grapple.  In my game, this usually does not come up in play, but if it starts to become a tactic by the players to win, and then they complain that combat is too easy, I start giving creatures proficiency in Athletics.


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## Yunru (Aug 24, 2018)

Given that there are no known weights to creatures, and that there is no system in place to calculate how much a creature resists or not, nor how the grappled creature being capable of self-movement plays into things, I'm gonna say go with what's written:
You can grapple anything within one size of you. You can move them, but you move at half speed.


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## Gwarok (Aug 24, 2018)

Greenstone.Walker said:


> I don't read it that way. I read it as saying "carrying or dragging a grappled creature is an option but you still have to follow the rules for carrying and dragging." Where are the rules for carrying and dragging? Earlier in the PHB.




From the PHB:
*
Block and Tackle. A set of pulleys with a cable threaded through them and a hook to attach to objects, a block and tackle allows you to hoist up to four times the weight you can normally lift.*

Which is why I never leave home or grapple without my trusty block and tackle


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## Dualazi (Aug 25, 2018)

devincutler said:


> The problem is that the modifier is so small compared to the die being rolled, that the stronger creature's strength doesn't matter that much. Let's compare a Str 19 ogre with a Str 10 peasant. The ogre has a +4, so the peasant will successfully grapple the ogre 30% of the time. Now take a reasonably strong human (Str 14) and you are looking at 38.25%. Throw in a low level proficiency in Athletics and you are at 47.5%.
> 
> 
> Advantage and disadvantage for size difference is a good solution IMO.




It's a good solution if you want people to never bother grappling, I guess. You already have to give up an attack to attempt a grapple, which prior to 5th level can take a PC's entire turn essentially. Even if you succeed, it just sets their speed to 0 and little else. Sure, you can knock them down too for easy advantage, but that requires a second attack use and a second opposed check. It's one of 5th edition's successes that grappling is a reasonable action for PCs to take and has an appreciable sense of success. This is a large contrast to the garbage of 3.x grappling, in which you needed a flowchart to figure out what steps to take and was useless unless you were heavily invested in it.

Someone else said it in the thread as well, but if your encounter is being ruined reliably because a large creature was successfully grappled, it's not the rules that need to change.


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 25, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> The Carrying rules say I *cannot *drag something larger that 30 times my strength score, but the grappling rules say I *can *move a grappled creature but at half my speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




In the event of a conflict, apply common sense. If you can't budge it when it is dead, you aren't going to be able to budge it when it is alive and uncooperative!

Hypothetically, a creature could be large and not very heavy though, such as a gas spore or giant vulture.


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## Oofta (Aug 25, 2018)

If you go buy the 3.5 SRD, an ogre weighs 350 pounds.  A horse on the other hand can weigh from 840-2,200 pounds according to google.

So personally I'd say you could generally drag a bipedal large creature if you are reasonably strong but not a quadruped.  Why?  It's simple and it doesn't make any sense that I could drag a live horse but not a dead one.  Especially one that people keep beating for no reason.  Poor horse.


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## WaterRabbit (Aug 29, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> The Carrying rules say I *cannot *drag something larger that 30 times my strength score, but the grappling rules say I *can *move a grappled creature but at half my speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No one said or implied that rules have precedence because they occur earlier in the book.  

However, what you do imply is the following scenario:  You come across a statue that weights 10 tons.  Clearly by the encumbrance rules you cannot move it (it is medium-sized and made of solid gold).  However, you decide to grapple it and then move it 15' per round out the door.

That is why both rules work together.  They don't conflict, so there isn't a specific beats general case here.

Or even more ridiculous, you grapple a brown bear and drag it around, but then after you kill it, you cannot move it out of the way because it is too heavy.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 29, 2018)

WaterRabbit said:


> No one said or implied that rules have precedence because they occur earlier in the book.




Greenstone Walker asked where the Carrying rules were, and then answered his own question with "Earlier in the PHB" If order of the rules didn't have have a place in his argument what was the point of asking and answering that question?

But perhaps I have been chasing after a red herring and should just let that go.



WaterRabbit said:


> However, what you do imply is the following scenario:  You come across a statue that weights 10 tons.  Clearly by the encumbrance rules you cannot move it (it is medium-sized and made of solid gold).  However, you decide to grapple it and then move it 15' per round out the door.



 Grapples are a contest. The statue cannot grapple or be grappled.



WaterRabbit said:


> That is why both rules work together.  They don't conflict, so there isn't a specific beats general case here.
> 
> Or even more ridiculous, you grapple a brown bear and drag it around, but then after you kill it, you cannot move it out of the way because it is too heavy.




Or while grappling the Brown bear you use its own movements against it. Diverting its momentum into the direction you want to go resulting in moving half your speed in the direction you wish with the brown bear still grappled. 

Upon it's death it no longer moves at all and since you can no longer leverage its own movement against it you are forced to use only your own strength to move it and thus are unable to.


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## WaterRabbit (Aug 29, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> Greenstone Walker asked where the Carrying rules were, and then answered his own question with "Earlier in the PHB" If order of the rules didn't have have a place in his argument what was the point of asking and answering that question?
> 
> But perhaps I have been chasing after a red herring and should just let that go.
> 
> ...




A statue can be grappled, it just loses the contest.  Logically, it is no different than grappling a person.

I would have to see an example of a single person grappling a brown bear and "diverting its momentum into the direction you want".  It also is contradicted by your assertion that grapples are contests.  A bear actively working against a character in combat should be much much more difficult to move than one just lying around dead.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 29, 2018)

WaterRabbit said:


> A statue can be grappled, it just loses the contest.  Logically, it is no different than grappling a person.



 You are free to rule that way if you wish.



WaterRabbit said:


> I would have to see an example of a single person grappling a brown bear and "diverting its momentum into the direction you want".




I don't. For me D&D is not a realism simulator. Heroes can do heroic things even if they are unrealistic.



WaterRabbit said:


> It also is contradicted by your assertion that grapples are contests.



 Not at all. the Bear is actively resisting the grapple. The greater skill and ability of the hero is what allows her to turn that active resistance against it.  



WaterRabbit said:


> A bear actively working against a character in combat should be much much more difficult to move than one just lying around dead.




If that makes the game more fun for you and your players sure, go for it.


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## Cap'n Kobold (Aug 29, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> In the event of a conflict, apply common sense. If you can't budge it when it is dead, you aren't going to be able to budge it when it is alive and uncooperative!
> 
> Hypothetically, a creature could be large and not very heavy though, such as a gas spore or giant vulture.






WaterRabbit said:


> Or even more ridiculous, you grapple a brown bear and drag it around, but then after you kill it, you cannot move it out of the way because it is too heavy.



 Just to clarify: When you talk about "grappling" you both seem to be requiring the grappler to be bodily lifting or dragging their opponent rather than head/arm/whatever locks or gripping somewhere sensitive.
Is that correct?



WaterRabbit said:


> A statue can be grappled, it just loses the contest.  Logically, it is no different than grappling a person.



 Logically the fact that a person is capable of supporting their own weight and has a tendency to more in fairly predictable ways under some stimuli would indicate that moving them whilst you have a grip on them would be easier than a 1 ton statue.

This is visible in for example videos of police actions: a demonstrator who goes completely limp requires several officers to carry. One that stays upright and under their own power can be moved by one when put in a hold.



> I would have to see an example of a single person grappling a brown bear and "diverting its momentum into the direction you want".  It also is contradicted by your assertion that grapples are contests.  A bear actively working against a character in combat should be much much more difficult to move than one just lying around dead.



 A dead horse for example, is probably flat-out too heavy to move unassisted. A living horse however, even one that doesn't want to go with you can be forced to move in a direction under its own power. 
The creature might be making attacks with the intent of killing/injuring you, but gripping the ears or lips for example may still allow you to drag it around.


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## Oofta (Aug 29, 2018)

According to the 3.5 SRD, an iron golem weighs 5,000 pounds. I find it hard to believe that any human could move 2.5 tons because "grappling".  That same golem that would require Superman like strength to budge if it were no longer animated.

Heaven forbid the grappling rules just don't include the wording "limited to your drag capacity" because the authors made the decision to not write the rules like computer code.

Oh well. To each their own, I know how I'll rule if it ever comes up at my table.


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## The Crimson Binome (Aug 29, 2018)

Dualazi said:


> It's a good solution if you want people to never bother grappling, I guess.



It's also a good solution if you want grappling to be rare - limited to situations where it is both physically plausible, and where circumstances warrant dragging the battle out much longer than is necessary. It's no loss whatsoever to suggest that "when fighting a larger creature" should not be one of those rare circumstances. 

So you don't try to wrestle a ten-foot iron golem. You don't try to strangle a hydra, either. Why would anyone even consider such a thing in the first place, unless the rules foolishly declare that it's a good idea?


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 29, 2018)

Oofta said:


> According to the 3.5 SRD, an iron golem weighs 5,000 pounds. I find it hard to believe that any human could move 2.5 tons because "grappling".  That same golem that would require Superman like strength to budge if it were no longer animated.



 Not necessarily Superman. A level 6+ Bear totem barbarian with Powerful build from race, and the Brawny Feat from UA, and 21+ strength from a belt of giant strength could drag more than 5000lbs.



Oofta said:


> Heaven forbid the grappling rules just don't include the wording "limited to your drag capacity" because the authors made the decision to not write the rules like computer code.




Where are the weights for creatures listed in the 5E SRD? Where does it say that a 5E Iron Golem is the same mass as a 3.5E Iron Golem. How would a DM that has just the 5E resources at their disposal know how much their Iron Golem weighs? Would they even care what it weighs?

Is the Brown Bear that has been used as an example in this thread already a 400lb Female inland Grizzly or a 1500lb Male Coastal Brown Bear? Should I even have to care about that as a 5E player or DM?



Oofta said:


> Oh well. To each their own, I know how I'll rule if it ever comes up at my table.




Without hard defined weights in the 5E statblocks this is very DM dependent. Which is why I can see it going either way, and lean towards the simpler solution of not caring about weight since Grappling is already limited by Size category.


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## Oofta (Aug 29, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> Not necessarily Superman. A level 6+ Bear totem barbarian with Powerful build from race, and the Brawny Feat from UA, and 21+ strength from a belt of giant strength could drag more than 5000lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As far as what could drag 2.5 tons, I'll take your word for it, but that's not the point. 

If I don't think someone should be able to drag a golem-sized statue made of iron, then they won't be able to drag an iron golem.  Being animated doesn't make it any easier to drag.  If you let people drag anything then it doesn't matter.  I don't allow rule loophole silliness in my game.

But run it the way you want.  I don't know that it's ever come up in any game I've been involved in and it's not worth arguing about.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 29, 2018)

Oofta said:


> I don't know that it's ever come up in any game I've been involved in and it's not worth arguing about.




I agree 100% on this.


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