# My attempt at the dipping technique



## Kris (Nov 23, 2006)

Hello All!

I've seen a few examples on the internet from people who have used the 'dipping' technique to get a bunch of their miniatures painted very quickly. However, being someone who likes to paint miniatures, I wasn't too fond of the idea - but in all honesty, I've got so many unpainted figures lying around, that well... I thought I could at least give it a try (and share my thoughts on my first 'dipped' miniature attempt).

For those of you unfamiliar with the technique... it basically involves priming your miniatures, and then giving them a quick base-coat of flat colours (no highlights or shading) - and then simply dunking them into a tin of varnish/stain. Sounds pretty crude right?

Anyway... I decided to give it a go, and so I assembled a GW plastic orc (I'm not all that fond of the GW orcs - so I was not too worried about ruining it  ), gave it a coat of primer and glued it to it's base (well actually, I had originally glued it to a square base prior to priming - but then decided to replace it with a 2p coin instead  ).

Then all I did was  give it a quick base-coat of the basic colours I had chosen... not being too particular - just getting the paint onto the miniature at this stage. It took me about one hour (as I am a very slow painter - most people could probably have done it in half the time).

Anyway here's what it looked like at the pre-dip stage: 






Next it was time for the dip.

The stuff I used was from my local Wilkinson's (Wilko's) Store, and is their own brand 'Interior & Exterior Woodstain'. I chose the 'satin walnut' colour (it cost £2.79 GBP for a 250ml tin I think).

So, once the miniature was dry I simply dipped the whole thing, head first, into the tin of woodstain for a few seconds... took it out... and shook off the excess for around a minute or so (in a nearby cardboard box).

At this stage there were a few areas where the stain had gathered heavily in some of the recesses (that I was having trouble shaking out) and after being placed back onto the table it slowly started to form a large drip at the bottom of his loincloth. To ease this problem I simply took a paper tissue, and gently poked the corner of it into these areas - and let it soak up some of the excess. All in all this whole process probably took less than 10 mins.

Then I left it to dry for a couple of hours (it say's 'quick drying' on the tin  ) - after which all it needed was the base painting brown and a little static grass added. This is the final result:





Admittedly it's not great, but it looks like this technique may be worthwhile if you are in a hurry to get a few figures painted up in time for your next game session, or if you simply have a lot of grunts to paint and would rather not spend that much time painting them.

So there you have it... I thought I would post my experience (and results) just in case it was of  interest to anyone out there who was considering the technique, or who had perhaps not heard of it before.

If anyone else has done this before, or has a few tips and tricks, it would be cool to hear about them


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## pogre (Nov 24, 2006)

Looks good. You have the technique down - here's one link I have about it:
Dipping
Here is a cool article on dipping figures in poly stain for speed painting. I have used it on Eastern Indians to great effect!
DIPPING FIGURES IN MINWAX POLYSHADE


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## Kris (Nov 24, 2006)

Thanks Pogre. I think it was in your painting guide post that I first heard about the technique 

It does seem that a few people use the MinWax brand - but I have not seen it over here in the UK ...so I just grabbed the cheapest tin of woodstain at the local store and thought I would see how it turns out.

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the technique or not yet (though it certainly is fast) ...but I will admit that the orc turned out better than I thought it would, and I think it looks much better than the pre-painted D&D mini's (which I am not criticising here... as I like buying the occasional box now and again).

I might try a couple more over the weekend... and I'll post more pic's if anyone is interested in seeing the results.


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## pogre (Nov 25, 2006)

Kris said:
			
		

> I might try a couple more over the weekend... and I'll post more pic's if anyone is interested in seeing the results.




Please post your results. I was kind of wondering about dipping D&D plastic minis. If you hit them with a shot of matte I wonder if the dip would still adhere?


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## Kris (Nov 25, 2006)

> Please post your results.



OK... here's 3 plastic mini's that I have quickly painted up this afternoon... just the basic colours on these pictures:

Another orc (so I can compare it to the previous one):





An old chaos warrior (I really do not like this figure - but a good test for armour)





And some kind of beastman (again plastic and hopefully a good test for skin and fur/hair):






They have just gone into the dip, and this time I have not spent so much time trying to shake of all the excess, but have instead used an old paintbrush to try and remove it (or move it around). Once they have dried I will spend a few minutes on the bases and post pictures of how they have turned out.



> I was kind of wondering about dipping D&D plastic minis



Hmm... I don't know about the woodstain actually sticking to the mini's... but if it does then it may work (aesthetically) on some of the earlier figures that didn't have a black ink/wash plastered all over them.


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## el-remmen (Nov 25, 2006)

Hey, I think those look great!

And personally, since minis take a lot of wear and tear (and chipping) in actual use, a quick method is preferable - saving crazy detail and attempted perfection for those meant to be on display, not played with/


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## Kris (Nov 26, 2006)

OK... here's the pictures of the same miniatures after they have been dipped in the woodstain (and their bases tidied up a little).

First here's the orc. For this test I just left the varnish on the swords however it dried to see how it turned out - as if it dried all patchy I figured it wouldn't matter too much as it could pass as a dirty/rusty orc blade. I was also curious to see how a paler skin colour (i.e. on the decapitated head) would turn out:





Next is the chaos warrior (which I may use as a heavily armoured orc). Even though I'm not fond of the figure, I think this one has gained the most from the dipping process:





Last is the beastman - who should pass nicely as some kind of half-fiend. With this one I tried to brush most of the stain off of the blades to make them look a little cleaner/brighter (and see what difference it made compared to the above orc):






So I think my verdict on the whole 'dipping' process is pretty much in agreeance with what el-remmen said. It's great for getting a bunch of figures done quickly... and because I've not spent all that long painting them, I'm also not gonna be too worried about them getting bashed around a little during use. Though in all honesty they do not look great under close inspection - but on the other hand, I can't remember the last time I painted several mini's in one afternoon (especially considering that half of that time was doing something else while waiting for the woodstain to dry).

But once you have several together... they don't look so bad:


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## Kris (Nov 27, 2006)

OK so while I am it I figured I'd start tossing a few other things into the dip... just stuff I have attempted to modify in the past or stuff that has got broke (and thus I've spent a few minutes fixing).

So next up is something a little different... as I found this mini lying around from a couple of years back (that I had added a few horns to, in an attempt to make a brown dragon from the 'Monsters of Faerîn' book). So here it is before it has gone into the dip (took about an hour to apply the base-coats):






However I may just have had my first dipping catastrophe... it went into the dip about 20 minutes ago and has been sitting on the table slowly drying. However I accidentally knocked it over and it landed on the carpet - smearing a large section of the 'tacky' woodstain (which I then had to try and recover with a brush)

Unfortunately my initial reaction wasn't "$#!# ...the carpet!" it was "$#!# ...the dragon!"

Hmmm...


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## Kris (Nov 27, 2006)

OK I faltered a little with this one...

So far I have resisted the urge to touch-up small areas of the miniature after the woodstain has dried - but seeing as how the stain doesn't really work to well on large flat areas I thought I'd just spend a quick 5 mins cleaning up this guys horns and claws a little (as they were a bit of a mess).

However I've only done it really fast with one colour and a large brush (as taking forever shading/highlighting them nicely kinda defies the object here), but I think it has helped.


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## Victim (Nov 27, 2006)

If I had some minis that looked like yours did pre-dip, I'd just call them finished.  Grr.


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## pogre (Nov 28, 2006)

These are great speed paint jobs! I would warrant you that these are nicer than 90% of others' painted minis out there. The nice thing too is you have a built-in finish for figures you are going to be playing with.


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## rowport (Nov 28, 2006)

Kris said:
			
		

> ...spend a quick 5 mins cleaning up this guys horns and claws a little...



Kris-

Thanks for the thread.  Your pics of the half-fiend results were enough to inspire me to give this technique a shot!    I am curious about this last bit, though; I realize that you just did a bit of 'cleanup' painting on the last fig, but I wonder about the surface texture after applying the dip.  Does the paint adhere properly to the waxed surface?  Do you then have to re-seal the mini to cover the new paint?  I wonder, because I am thinking about combining the dip layer with traditional drybrushing effects.  Specifically, I think I could dip the mini mid-painted to get the skin layer slightly shiny, then paint the rest of the mini (armor, weapons, etc.) with regular drybrushing, and maybe then dullcoat the lot.  (I spend the most time with wet-layers on skin, so dipping would save me the most time there.)  What do you think?


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## Kris (Nov 28, 2006)

Thanks again for the comments  

Anyway, I figured that these guys needed some kind of spellcaster to back them up... so here's a small goblin mounted on a 1p coin (a figure that I had to repair and modify just a little bit):











And for anyone who's interested - this is the stuff I have been dipping my miniatures into:





I will admit that it's been enjoyable just painting up a bunch of mini's as quick as possible and not really fussing over all the details and layering etc., and I would say that I could have painted, dipped and based all of the above miniatures in one day if I had put my mind to it (instead of just doing one here and one there like I have been). That is in no way a boast on my part... just an idea of how many miniatures I reckon could be done in a day with this technique.

That in itself is a nice change (As I'm usually a painfully slow painter) ...and although I would have liked to spend more time making the bases look a little better (rather than just sprinkling a bit of static grass on them) - it would have kinda been counterproductive, as the aim was to try and get a tabletop-quality miniature done in as short a time as possible.

Anyway... here's a quick look at the whole bunch (sorry not a very good photo):





Maybe if I get some spare time in the next few days I'll attempt to dip a metal miniature that I actually like (rather than old plastic figures I'm not all that fond of)... and maybe even get a lighter woodstain to try out on paler colours & skin tones.

And if it's of interest I will continue to post pictures of my little dipping experiments


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## Kris (Nov 28, 2006)

rowport...

I don't know if it makes a difference or not but the woodstain I am using is water-based (just thought I'd mention that) but the claws and horns covered OK (straight over the top). However the stain can gather quite heavily in some of the recessed areas... and drybrushing things like hair, fur or chainmail, may be problematic (as the raised areas might not be sitting much above the stain-filled recess - if that makes sense).

However, if you look at the orc with the two swords... the stain has just gathered in random areas on the flat surfaces of the weapons (it really doesn't handle these kinds of area's well) ...but they are smooth to the touch and I think I could probably tidy them by simply painting over them easily enough (though I have no idea if a drybrushing technique on them would pick up any inconsistencies that I can't see/feel).

It's probably also worth noting that I have also been slapping on a quick coat of brush-on matt varnish when they are dried... because after the dip they can be a little shiny.

I hope that helps


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## Kris (Nov 30, 2006)

Tonight I thought I'd try a couple of metal miniatures - and see how they handled the dip.

So sticking with a similar colour scheme I've quickly painted a couple of LotR orcs (yep more orcs  ). Also seeing as how the woodstain is basically shading the miniatures dark brown, I'm trying to stick with colours that work best with that (i.e. no bright blues etc.).

Anyway, these guys are a lot smaller than your average GW or Reaper miniature - and are more like true 28mm scale. The paint jobs are very basic (and remind me of the first ever miniatures I painted when I was like 12 years old or something  ) - with the second one taking a mere 35 min's to complete (yep... I was sad enough to time myself for this little speed painting experiment  ).











I much prefer the look of these orcs (even though these two particular mini's are not the best ones in the range) as they are far less comical looking than the regular GW orcs and goblins.

And here they are after the dip:





I am really happy with the difference the dip has made to these figures - whether it's just because they are smaller, or because they are metal and have deeper recesses than the plastic figures, I'm not sure... but they are without doubt my favourite of the ones I have dipped so far (of course it probably helps that I prefer the style of the sculpts themselves too  )


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## Pbartender (Nov 30, 2006)

Are you painting the "metallic" parts of the minis (swords and armor, for example), or leaving those bits unpainted as suggested in some dipping guides?  From here, it looks like you're painting most them...  even the silver-colored bits.


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## Kris (Nov 30, 2006)

I've been giving everything a coat of white primer (brush on) and then painting all the basic colours - metallics included.

In truth I had not thought of leaving the metallic parts bare on the metal figures... but in all honesty I think I prefer to know that all of the miniature has had a coat of paint  ...just so that I know I'm not cheating too much


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## Pbartender (Dec 1, 2006)

That's what I thought...  In the link Pogre posted above about dipping, the minis werem't primed, and "metal" parts weren't painted.  There was also a link to some pirate figures that has been dipped "in the nude"...  without any paint at all.  It made them look rather antique-ish.

I was just curious to see a first-hand sample of how dipping worked on bare metal.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Dec 4, 2006)

I gave "dipping" a try last night, and I'm very happy with the results. I used MinWax Polyshades Satin Tudor (#360), as recommended in the link Pogre provided. Instead of dipping and flicking (since I was painting at the dining room table and my wife wouldn't really appreciate the flicking part   ), I just lightly coated the minis with the stain by brush. I did a variety of minis-a GW plastic skeleton, an old Grenadier mummy, and a few Reapers (dwarf, female rogue, and wood golem). Very basic paint jobs, hit them with the stain, and let dry overnight. They look much better than my usual paint jobs (ie. not much shading or dry brushing). Once I get them based up (it'll be a few days before I can do so), I'll post some pics of the results. 

Some things I noticed-
On white, it shows up VERY dark (duh... why did I not expect this?), so white clothing is probably not the best on minis that will be dipped unless you don't mind the look. It does, however, make skeletons and mummys VERY easy to paint-slap on a coat of white then stain and forget. Those came out quite good, IMHO. 

The stain does make for quite glossy minis. I'm going to hit them with some dull coat tonight after they have dried a full 24 hours. I have read, however, that normal dull coat spray doesn't adhere very well to the poly stain (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/minwax/dip2.gif) and the minis should be coated with an adhesive/fixative spray before applying the dull coat to keep the dull coat from wrinkling as it dries. Anyone have any advice on that? I have been unable to find the recommended Kamar Varnish near me.


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## Kris (Dec 5, 2006)

> I'll post some pics of the results



 I am looking forward to seeing them - especially the skeleton, as I have a few of these lying around myself and am interested to see the results.



> On white, it shows up VERY dark



Yeah, I have actually got myself a 'medium oak' coloured stain today (as I was passing by the store that I got my other tin from) and I'm gonna give that a try on some lighter colours later on in the week. I'll post the results when they are done.


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## Kris (Dec 7, 2006)

I had some spare time today... so I have given the lighter shade of woodstain a test.

So here's a couple of plastic miniatures that I painted up quickly ...and painted them in brighter/lighter colours than those in the previous batches - just to see how they turn out:






And here's the shade of woodstain that they have been dipped into:





And the final result (crudely based and matt varnished):





...well if nothing else I think I've found  a good colour for pale human skin  ...the yellow looks a bit dirty (and probably not a good colour choice for this type of mini) - but I'm very happy with the skin tone


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## Kris (Dec 9, 2006)

Here's a couple more that I have tried with the lighter woodstain:





The skeleton really could not be any easier to paint (as Cthulhu's Librarian mentioned in his above post)... just three basic colours (GW's bleached bone, bestial brown and chainmail) and it's done. If someone was going to attempt to paint a miniature for the first time, and was also considering the 'dipping' technique - then I would definitely recommend starting with a few skeletons 

Anyway, here they are post-dip:


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 30, 2007)

This technique is going to revolutionize my army painting.


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## pogre (Jul 31, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> This technique is going to revolutionize my army painting.




It's been around a long time my friend. SOme folks have really got their dips down to a science. If you want to see painters who expertly use glazes and dips check out the folks at Blue Table Painting.


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## Kris (Jul 31, 2007)

Seeing how the thread has resurfaced again, I thought I'd post a a few more pictures of other things I have attempted with varying success since the original post:

Skeleton & mummy before:





Skeleton & mummy after:


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## Kris (Jul 31, 2007)

An old (and quite comic looking  ) style of beholder, before:





And after (yeah I really hate this figure):


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## Kris (Jul 31, 2007)

An old Ral Partha Ogre I think:





And after the dip (my favourite of all the dipped figures):


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## Pbartender (Jul 31, 2007)

Kris said:
			
		

>




That mummy looks really nice.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 31, 2007)

Kris, that's an interesting range of colors that you are using. Have you tried dipping over any brighter or different colors (reds, greens, blues, etc)? I've found that it shades most colors quite nicely, but there are a few that clash. Just curious what your experiences were.


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## Kris (Jul 31, 2007)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Have you tried dipping over any brighter or different colors (reds, greens, blues, etc)?



Not really... since the stain is basically shading the colours in a similar way to a brown ink/wash I have tried to stick with colours that will compliment that (i.e. reds/browns/flesh tones/etc. ...I think the Ral Partha ogre shows how you can use a somewhat limited palette and still get a reasonable result.)

I tried bright red and bright(ish) yellow on the plastic empire swordsmen above... but I really didn't like the end result - even with the lighter woodstain.

The green I used on the plastic GW orcs was 'Catachan Green' I believe - and that worked out OK - but then again it's not really a 'bright' colour.

So I guess my answer is, no I haven't really tried bright blues or greens (though I have probably gone the long way about saying it  ).

If you have any pic's of these colours (pre and post dip) it would be interesting to see them (even if the mini didn't turn out very well and it serves only as a 'what colours to avoid' example).

Of course any figures that turned out nice are always good to see too


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm going to the hardware store tonight to get some stain.  If I can't find Tudor what is the next best genral color?  Walnut?  Oak?


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## Kris (Jul 31, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> If I can't find Tudor what is the next best genral color?  Walnut?  Oak?



I guess it kinda depends on the colour you intend on painting the mini's, and also the brand of stain you are using.

I can only comment on the stuff I have used, and I have found that the Walnut stain has dried somewhat similar to GW's scorched brown colour (even darker where it has gathered in deep recess) and is does a good job on colours like bestial brown, scab red etc.

The medium oak I have used dries a little bit like GW's bestial brown (maybe even as dark as  scorched brown where it gathers really heavily) and is what I have used on the skeletons and most of the figures with regular flesh-tones. It doesn't really alter anything you paint bestial brown (or darker) all that much.

Both seem to do an OK job on metallics (though it can be a bit hit and miss - especially on large flat areas)

Anyway, I hope that helps


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## Doug Sundseth (Jul 31, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I'm going to the hardware store tonight to get some stain.  If I can't find Tudor what is the next best genral color?  Walnut?  Oak?




Tudor is a _very_ dark stain.  If you can't find it, look for as dark a brown as you can find.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 31, 2007)

Kris said:
			
		

> I guess it kinda depends on the colour you intend on painting the mini's, and also the brand of stain you are using.
> 
> I can only comment on the stuff I have used, and I have found that the Walnut stain has dried somewhat similar to GW's scorched brown colour (even darker where it has gathered in deep recess) and is does a good job on colours like bestial brown, scab red etc.
> 
> ...




Thanks.  I think I'm going to order some Tudor through Lowes, though they have to special order it.   If I decide to do another army I'm may do a Tomb Kings one since this method would really speed up the work on all those skeletons.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 31, 2007)

Doug Sundseth said:
			
		

> Tudor is a _very_ dark stain.  If you can't find it, look for as dark a brown as you can find.




I'm going to order some Turdor tonight but I think I'll grab a small can of the darker brown they carry in stock as well.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 31, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Thanks.  I think I'm going to order some Tudor through Lowes, though they have to special order it.   If I decide to do another army I'm may do a Tomb Kings one since this method would really speed up the work on all those skeletons.




Yes, I found that Lowes does not stock Tudor, but the 2 local independant hardware stores near me did carry it and had it in stock, and in smaller cans than Lowes would special order for me.


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## pogre (Jul 31, 2007)

That ogre is really outstanding. Great stuff Kris - thanks for posting these!


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 1, 2007)

Well I found some Polyshade but couldn't find anything quite as dark as the Tudor so I bought the darkest I could find, a mahogany.  Man when you actually dip them instead of brushing it on the stain goes on so damn thick that it almost made me panic about messing up the figures, GW Orks.  I shook them off and then brushed off a few clumps on the weapons.  They are drying now and I'll try to post some pics tomorrow.

I actually found one place that sells Tudor here but its 16 bucks for a quart and I don't need that much.  The can I got was five bucks and a much small can.   I'm going to get some oak to do some lighter figs if these turn out ok.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 2, 2007)

The Mahogany I used gave the Ork too much of a tint for my tastes, I think I'll find some Tudor for a more blackish tone and get some cans of oak and walnut for lighter tones.  I didn't clean the excess off good enough either and it left too much on parts, globs of dark stain.  The fig is easily usable in Warhammer and doesn't look bad, but I think I'll use a brush next time.


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## pogre (Aug 2, 2007)

I use a brush too, but one of the articles on dipping talks about spinning the excess off. He secures the figure on the end of a "dipping stick" and after dipping spins the figure back and forth in an empty paint can or box to rid it of the excess stain.


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## Kris (Aug 2, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I didn't clean the excess off good enough either and it left too much on parts, globs of dark stain.



Yeah, if you are going to dip them then you really need to shake the excess off... and then shake some more 

In addition, I found this site a while ago where they are actually selling stuff especially for miniatures:
http://armypainter.fanatic.dk

I'm not sure how much better it would be (considering how much more expensive it is  ) - but there is a little introductory video on the home page and quite a lot of examples to look at (which is nice).

If anyone has used it, it would be good to hear your opinion on the stuff (though I think I'll stick to the stuff that costs me less than £3 rather than something that costs around £20 ...but that's just me being cheap  )




			
				pogre said:
			
		

> I use a brush too...



I think if I do any more I'll try the brush-on method and see how it turns out. It should be less messy at least


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 2, 2007)

pogre said:
			
		

> I use a brush too, but one of the articles on dipping talks about spinning the excess off. He secures the figure on the end of a "dipping stick" and after dipping spins the figure back and forth in an empty paint can or box to rid it of the excess stain.




I tried the spin.  I had a flat head screw glued to the base for the dip and I spun that in the front yard to get off the excess.  I just didn't do enough I think.  A nice soft brush will work better methinks.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Aug 2, 2007)

I've never actually dipped, I've always brushed. I need to get pics of those minis and post them...


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 2, 2007)

Wow, what a great thread. 

(Come on, pogre, you should point me to these when they come up.)

I am not a painter anywhere in the mold of pogre. I paint to play, which means I paint for speed. I consider myself a very good speed painter. (I can typically paint a 1500-point army in two weekends.)

In the evolution of my painting I started with GW's Chestnut Wash and I have probably gone through more bottles of that than even White or Black base coat. (Considering how I clean my brushes that probably means I've ingested an ounce or two of ink...)

I discovered very early on that Chestnut Wash improves almost any figure, which I think is confirmed somewhat by the brown stains being suggested in this thread.

I used the GW inks in general with a very heavy brush to cheat all my shadows, and a really amateur drybrush afterwards (usually just with white) to pick out highlights.

A few years ago (back when I was still painting regularly) I discovered WonderWash which is also a really great cheat. It's just black ink, water, and a drop of dish detergent, if I am not mistaken. (The detergent helps the water dry evenly without puddling-- in theory. I think. The detergent changes the cohesive properties of the mix, somehow.)

I used a really heavy brush with WonderWash and went through bottles and bottles of it-- so much so that if I had been thinking I could have very well combined them all in a single container and gone straight to dipping.

Which brings me to a few questions for folks who know a bit more about the chemistry behind the washes and the stains.

1) Would a water-based stain dry more evenly (with fewer puddles)?

2) Would a water-based stain _with a mixture of detergent_ in the vein of WonderWash work better?

3) Even just using the basic stains folks have been using here, do you recommend picking out details like eyes, claws, and teeth *after* the dip-- or will the stain repel the paint? Or do you not really need to do eyes at all? I have to imagine that the eye sockets will pretty much suck the stain right in.

This thread actually has me itching to paint again! I have a box of 20 or 30 mummies that's been sitting around for ages unpainted, I bet I could get them all done in an hour. =)

EDIT
Interesting:
http://armypainter.fanatic.dk/

All of the links under the Union Jack open PDF files like this one:
http://armypainter.fanatic.dk/UserFiles/File/UK_Q&A.pdf


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 2, 2007)

I found that where I didn't let it puddle too much the stain did not overpower the small details.  I want it to puddle in the creases but not in the small details like teeth and claws.  On mine the excess was on the arms and boots, the teeth and claws were fine. 


On another non-related note.  Man I Hate priming figs here in St. Louis in the summer. The humidity is always through the roof and the spray primer f'ing clumps too much!  I have to strip the group of Empire Greatswords I primed last night.  Too much "fuzz" on the finish.   Grr!!!


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 2, 2007)

I emailed the maker of that mini stain to see if they sell anywhere in the US.  I figured the rate of the cans in dollars and with the sad state of the dollar its about 42 bucks a can.  Jeez!


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 2, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I emailed the maker of that mini stain to see if they sell anywhere in the US.  I figured the rate of the cans in dollars and with the sad state of the dollar its about 42 bucks a can.  Jeez!




Yeah, and I thought the WonderWash guy was making a killing on mark-up!

The secret really is finding the right stuff that goes into your mix (ie, ink, water, and Future floor polish for WonderWash) and making your own mix, instead of paying some internet entrepreneur a huge markup to do the mixing for you. (God bless 'em, don't get me wrong.)


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## Kris (Aug 2, 2007)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> ...Which brings me to a few questions...
> 
> 1) Would a water-based stain dry more evenly (with fewer puddles)?



The stuff I have been using is water-based - but I haven't tried anything else to compare it to  (I didn't even realise it was water-based when I purchased it).



> 2) Would a water-based stain _with a mixture of detergent_ in the vein of WonderWash work better?



Hmm... I might give that a try and see how it works out.



> 3) Even just using the basic stains folks have been using here, do you recommend picking out details like eyes, claws, and teeth *after* the dip...



The only thing I have touched up after the dip are the horns and claws of the brown dragon-thing I posted on the first page, and that seemed to cover fine... though maybe that is because I am using water-based stain?

With regard to eyes (before dipping) ...on the human figures I just painted the whole face one flat colour. On some of the orcs and stuff I have painted a simple red dot and left it at that.



> Interesting:
> http://armypainter.fanatic.dk/
> 
> All of the links under the Union Jack open PDF files like this one:
> http://armypainter.fanatic.dk/UserFiles/File/UK_Q&A.pdf



I think the pirate looking guys in the 'features archive' look about the best of what he has done to date, and the LotR uruk-hai look pretty good too for such a simple base-coat.



			
				Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I emailed the maker of that mini stain to see if they sell anywhere in the US.  I figured the rate of the cans in dollars and with the sad state of the dollar its about 42 bucks a can.  Jeez!



Yeah it does seem quite expensive


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 2, 2007)

After more searching the only place that sells Tudor around his is the big cans for about 17 bucks.  I'm going to buy one though.


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## Doug Sundseth (Aug 2, 2007)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> A few years ago (back when I was still painting regularly) I discovered WonderWash which is also a really great cheat. It's just black ink, water, and a drop of dish detergent, if I am not mistaken. (The detergent helps the water dry evenly without puddling-- in theory. I think. The detergent changes the cohesive properties of the mix, somehow.)
> 
> ...
> 
> 1) Would a water-based stain dry more evenly (with fewer puddles)?




No.  Water has a higher surface tension than most other solvents used for painting.  High surface tension means beading/puddles.



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> 2) Would a water-based stain _with a mixture of detergent_ in the vein of WonderWash work better?




Yes.  Detergent is a surfactant (it reduces the surface tension of the water).  Adding a little bit of detergent allows the stain or paint to flow more easily, which means it is more likely to settle into the places you'd like it to.

Various alcohols (propylene glycol is popular among paint formulators) can do much the same thing.  In fact, you're usually better off using something other than straight water as a thinner for paint in _all_ cases.



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> 3) Even just using the basic stains folks have been using here, do you recommend picking out details like eyes, claws, and teeth *after* the dip-- or will the stain repel the paint? Or do you not really need to do eyes at all? I have to imagine that the eye sockets will pretty much suck the stain right in.




If you're dipping, you might want to (I would) clean up some details after the dip is finished.  It depends on how much you care about precision in your painting.  For bulk painting, it's not particularly necessary.  As to eyes, you can make a cogent argument that eyes should not be painted (especially on 15mm or smaller figures), since the eyes of a human are only seen as shadows at a distance.  (FWIW, I still paint eyes, but I do lots of silly things.  I've used 15 colors of paint on a single 6mm figure, for instance.  8-/ )


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 2, 2007)

Thanks for the answers, Doug.

I picked up two pots of stain over lunch: one water based, and one poly-based (although I could not find #360, I had to settle for a darker shade, I think #380).

I'm going to give them both a try, including adding a bit of Future floor wax (which I mistakenly called detergent earlier) to the water-based mix.


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## GlassJaw (Aug 2, 2007)

This thread is awesome - great stuff Kris.  I consider myself a good slow painter but a horrible speed painter.  I'm too much of a perfectionist.  I really want to try the techniques in this thread though.

Slightly OT: Kris, what is your photography setup and method - really great pics.


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## Kris (Aug 2, 2007)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> ...I consider myself a good slow painter but a horrible speed painter.  I'm too much of a perfectionist.  I really want to try the techniques in this thread though.



I know how you feel, I'm usually painfully slow when painting normally - but it is kinda satisfying to get a bunch of figures done quickly this way (even if they look kinda cruddy compared to something you might spend hours on) 




			
				GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Slightly OT: Kris, what is your photography setup and method - really great pics.



I'm using a Fuji FinePix A202 camera (2 mega pixels) - which I guess is a little pathetic by today's standards - but it still works, so I'm not intending on upgrading any time soon 

When I'm taking the pictures I simply have the mini on a sheet of white paper and two standard desk lamps (with 60W bulbs) shining on the mini (i.e. not using the camera's flash).

I'll admit that I'll usually take around half a dozen pic's of the mini at various distances and then choose the best one


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## Kris (Aug 2, 2007)

And all this talk about the technique has got me at it again... so here's a couple I've painted tonight that I'm going to use when attempting to brush the stain on.

An old Citadel skeleton (or some other undead):






An Armalion orc (yeah I seem to have a 101 different styles of orcs):


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## GlassJaw (Aug 3, 2007)

Kris said:
			
		

> I'm using a Fuji FinePix A202 camera (2 mega pixels) - which I guess is a little pathetic by today's standards - but it still works, so I'm not intending on upgrading any time soon
> 
> When I'm taking the pictures I simply have the mini on a sheet of white paper and two standard desk lamps (with 60W bulbs) shining on the mini (i.e. not using the camera's flash).




Do you take the pics in macro mode?  Do you use a tripod?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 3, 2007)

Found a can of Tudor stain for 8 bucks!  Woot!

I also went back and did some touch up on my orcs.  Since I put too much stain on I went back and redid the weapons so they were not so dark.


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## Kris (Aug 3, 2007)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Do you take the pics in macro mode?  Do you use a tripod?



I do have the macro feature turned on, but the camera itself I just rest on the table and tilt it a little (by hand) so that the miniature appears in the centre of the display. Not very hi-tec I'm afraid 

Anyway… here's the results I got by brushing the woodstain (walnut colour) on the above miniatures rather than actually dipping them. Well 'brushing' is not too accurate a description as I just loaded a large brush with the stain and dabbed it on the figure and then used a clean brush to soak up any stain that was gathering too heavily in any one area.

Here's the armoured skeleton:





And the orc (probably a bit too dark):





All in all I think it's just as good (or bad  ) but it's also a lot less messy 

I did however have to lie the skeleton on his back after he had dried, and add a little more stain to the area beneath his chin and where the shield meets the body - as the original stain had either evaporated or run further down the mini (leaving those areas without much shading). But lying the figure on it's back and letting little drops of stain pool in those areas did the trick


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## Pbartender (Aug 3, 2007)

I'm wondering just how deep you dip the figures...  base and all?

How do you dry them without the stain drying such that  it glues the base to whatever it's resting on?


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## Redrobes (Aug 3, 2007)

Kris said:
			
		

> I do have the macro feature turned on, but the camera itself I just rest on the table and tilt it a little (by hand) so that the miniature appears in the centre of the display. Not very hi-tec I'm afraid



This is a great thread Kris. I haven't painted miniatures for years and I want to have a go now !! I am stunned at how good they come out given the basic paint job before hand. Anyway, on the camera topic, have you or anyone else tried to take photos top down to use in the digital aids ? I know using digital maps kinda defeats the object of using real minis but you could play with your own minis as photo tokens online too, or swap tokens of classically great paint jobs.


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## Kris (Aug 3, 2007)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> How do you dry them without the stain drying such that  it glues the base to whatever it's resting on?



I generally stick the miniature to a bit of 'blu tack' ('fun tack' in the US?) while it dries ...like I did on this mini - though this was one I was painting rather than dipping:
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l159/csp_kris/mmgoblin1.jpg



			
				Redrobes said:
			
		

> ...have you or anyone else tried to take photos top down to use in the digital aids ?



Never tried that to be honest, but it sounds as though it might work.


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## Kris (Aug 3, 2007)

Here's another quick test on a couple of new colours...





The white hair (well 'bleached bone' in this instance) was always going to be a bit of a problem when using the darker woodstain - but since I'm now using a brush to apply it, I'm wondering if it would be possible to be a little more selective and add different stains to different parts of the mini...

...but then again, they are supposed to be 'speed paints' and if I'm going to start complicating matters then I may as well just paint the mini in a more conventional manner


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 8, 2007)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> I'm wondering just how deep you dip the figures...  base and all?




Well, I've done one DIP now so I can report my results. 

It was intended to be as quick and primitive as possible to get my baseline "worst case scenario" results.

My victim was the WOTC "Zhentarim Fighter."
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/af_gall/X_200_200_80340_CN_RGB150dpi.jpg

A decent sculpt with a really bad paint job. Basically, I wanted to see what improvements I could make to some of the worst WOTC minis, and I wanted something I could test quickly without even having to basecoat my own stuff.

Process:
Put the Zhent in a pair of needlenose vice-grips, dunked the whole damn thing into a can of Minwax #380 (Walnut), shook it off, and left it to dry over the weekend. (I left it on my usual painting board/palette to dry, and it didn't stick to the board at all. Not a problem.)

Results:
Pretty amazing, actually-- I will try to get some before/after side-by-side pics up later. But basically, EVERY bad WOTC mini deserves to get dipped. It will make a big improvement.

1) There was some pooling on the mini itself. Next time, I'll use a cotton swab to soak up any obvious glops. 

This is preferable to using (and rapidly destroying) a brush, I think. I wouldn't try to use a swab to apply the stain, as I imagine it would leave bits of cotton, but for carefully soaking up excess stain in certain recesses, I think it should be fine. And they're cheap and disposable.

2) There was a lot of puddling on the base of the mini-- actually a rather good sign, I think, as it meant the stain ran off pretty good. Next time, I will probably base the mini first with a rough sand or pebble mixture, BEFORE dipping, and let the dip stain/seal the sand base even more thoroughly.

3) Very glossy. Personally I don't mind, these minis are for playing, but if I had a row of soldiers done I might give them a couple of very quick passes with Matte sealer.

Again, I apologize for no pics, but the results were every bit consistent with what you are seeing in this thread.

Next up: Kermit the Green Slaad...


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## Pbartender (Aug 8, 2007)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Put the Zhent in a pair of needlenose vice-grips, dunked the whole damn thing into a can of Minwax #380 (Walnut), shook it off, and left it to dry over the weekend. (I left it on my usual painting board/palette to dry, and it didn't stick to the board at all. Not a problem.)




Cool.  Thanks, Wulf.  I was thinking tying a length of thread around the base to dip, and then spinning around by the string to centrifuge the excess off might work well, especially with the heavier metal minis.

I might have to try this with some of my plastic WotC minis this weekend.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 8, 2007)

I have an old shoebox, so I just held the pliers inside the shoebox, put the lid on as best as I could, and shook the mini back and forth like hell.

In other news, THE DIP has forced me to order up a batch of spray primer and new basecoat paints-- most of my paints are packed up or dried out-- and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for a whoooooooole lot of painting I have to catch up on.


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## Pbartender (Aug 8, 2007)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> In other news, THE DIP has forced me to order up a batch of spray primer and new basecoat paints-- most of my paints are packed up or dried out-- and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for a whoooooooole lot of painting I have to catch up on.




I was thinking the same thing...


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## bytor4232 (Aug 8, 2007)

Victim said:
			
		

> If I had some minis that looked like yours did pre-dip, I'd just call them finished.  Grr.




hehe, I know.  Most of my painted minis at this point look little better than the first pic!


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## Pbartender (Aug 8, 2007)

Another question -- especially for Wulf, who I know dipped a plastic WotC mini -- does the pliability of the plastic minis have any impact on the durability of the coat of wood stain?


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## Kris (Aug 10, 2007)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> ...I will try to get some before/after side-by-side pics up later...



It'd be great to see how any of the WotC mini's turn out after a quick dip 



> ...and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for a whoooooooole lot of painting I have to catch up on.



Yeah... for me it's been good to get a coat of paint on some figures that I probably would never have got round to painting otherwise 

For example, I painted up the rest of my Armalion/DSA orcs yesterday, applied the woodstain, and left them to dry overnight. Today I tidied up the bases and gave them a coat of matt varnish (to eliminate some of the shine) and here's the results.










The woodstain has left the shields a bit patchy, but for these figures (i.e. dirty orcs) I quite like the effect (though I'd hate it on a more 'clean-looking' mini).


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## Decado (Aug 11, 2007)

This an awesome thread. I think I just found my inspiration to finish my GW Beastman army. Thanks!! I do have a question, when putting the base paint on the minis do you use a brighter color then normal base paint to offset the darkness of the stain?

Decado


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## Kris (Aug 12, 2007)

Decado said:
			
		

> I do have a question, when putting the base paint on the minis do you use a brighter color then normal base paint to offset the darkness of the stain?



The stain definitely darkens the whole of the mini - so you will have to keep this in mind when applying your basecoat.

With the stain I'm using, I think the best way to describe the finished colours on the raised areas is that they look somewhat like the original colours but with a spot of GW scorched brown added to the mix.

The main colours I used on my own beastman attempt were chainmail for the metal bits, scab red for the skin, and bestial brown for the fur/hair (if that's of any use).

Anyway I hope that helps


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## Cergorach (Aug 12, 2007)

Thanks for pointing this out! After some googling i found some good examples of GW ranges that were dipped. I have so many unpainted miniatures laying around that it's scarring me into buying piles of prepainted ones ;-)

I have a bunch of genestealers that make excellent experimentation fodder.

I'm wondering if this will work with smaller ranges like 10mm Warmaster or 30mm vehicles (like W40K tanks)...

I'm looking into using a airbrush or spraycans for coating in an appropriate base color (bleached bone for skeletons), using the GW foundation paints to do the coloring (these have good coverage, one layer should be enough). Anything to get faster results...


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## Decado (Aug 12, 2007)

Kris, that did help thanks. I tried it on a Beastmen mini that had 95% finished. The end result was very good and I am working on some more. My base color scheme is pretty close to yours.

Decado


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 13, 2007)

WOW.

I am well...

WOW.

Awesome thread.


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## pogre (Aug 13, 2007)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if this will work with smaller ranges like 10mm Warmaster or 30mm vehicles (like W40K tanks)...




I have used it on 15's to good effect.


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