# Jackie Chan Quits...



## Ranger REG (Sep 13, 2006)

I might be wrong, but is it true that Jackie Chan and Jet Li are out of the martial arts film business? Are they jealous that Chow Yun Fat is getting some choice roles from _Anna and The King_ (with Jodie Foster) to _Pirates of the Caribbeans 2: Dead Man's Chest_?


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## Donovan Morningfire (Sep 13, 2006)

I can't speak to Jackie Chan, but as for Jet Li, he's said in interviews from a while ago (a year at least) that he was planning to retire from the martial arts film genre.

Another thing to consider is that both men aren't getting any younger, and with new guys like Tony Jaa on the horizon, being able to deliver the kind of performance audiences expect out of a martial arts movie has got to be increasingly difficult on their bodies.  Heck, Jackie Chan's body has been put through the wringer during his film career (as the blooper reels at the end of his movies attest to).  So that could be a major reason why they are stepping out of that film genre; they want to get out before they really hurt something and end up crippled, or worse, dead.

Besides, Chow Yun Fat wasn't in PotC2; he's scheduled for PotC3.


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## librarius_arcana (Sep 13, 2006)

Well I know that Chan is doing at least another Rush Hour movie


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## Taelorn76 (Sep 13, 2006)

I think Jet Li's last movie is called "Fearless" They really are hyping it as his last martial arts film in the trailers.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 13, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I think Jet Li's last movie is called "Fearless" They really are hyping it as his last martial arts film in the trailers.





His last 'epic' martial art film. From what I understand they'll still be plenty of Craddle 2 the Grave stylings around the corner.


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## Rackhir (Sep 13, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I think Jet Li's last movie is called "Fearless" They really are hyping it as his last martial arts film in the trailers.




I really wish he had chosen something other than yet another "Evil Foriegners out to humiliate and destroy the Noble Chinese" film for his last Martial Arts flick. As China rises in power the constant harping on past slights and insults makes me nervous and I don't plan to go see it for that reason. Which is sad, since I've really enjoyed his non-rapper related films.

While Jackie Chan has good reason to retire from the action flicks, Jet Li hasn't suffered nearly the kind of damage that Jackie has, but he isn't exactly a spring chicken any more either (43 yrs old). The only injury mentioned in his IMDB listing is that apparently he was in Maldives when the Tsunami hit and his foot was injured when he was hit by a piece of furnature while he was scooping up his daughter and taking her to safety.


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## mmu1 (Sep 13, 2006)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> I really wish he had chosen something other than yet another "Evil Foriegners out to humiliate and destroy the Noble Chinese" film for his last Martial Arts flick. As China rises in power the constant harping on past slights and insults makes me nervous and I don't plan to go see it for that reason. Which is sad, since I've really enjoyed his non-rapper related films.




I said something similar to my friends when I saw the previews - I'm not paying money for nationalistic Chinese propaganda that features Westerners as villains. Though in my eyes, it's more laughable than worrying and smacks of insecurity... They need to make a fictional "epic" because they have precious few real stories to tell about victories over the Evil Westerners. (Well, just now, anyway... History is chaotic enough that 50 years from now, it might seem obvious we should have worried.)


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## ShinHakkaider (Sep 13, 2006)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> I said something similar to my friends when I saw the previews - I'm not paying money for nationalistic Chinese propaganda that features Westerners as villains. Though in my eyes, it's more laughable than worrying and smacks of insecurity... They need to make a fictional "epic" because they have precious few real stories to tell about victories over the Evil Westerners. (Well, just now, anyway... History is chaotic enough that 50 years from now, it might seem obvious we should have worried.)



.

Having actually seen the movie it's less about the "evil Westerners" than it is about a man fighting his own demons and overcoming his own hubris and obsession with being number one. Even the "Evil Westerners" arent ALL really evil as demonstated briefly at the end of Huo's fight with the westerns boxer O'brien and the mutual respect between Huo and his Japanese opponent Tanaka. The movie is based on the life of a real person Yuan jia huo who was the founder of the jin Wu martial arts school / federation. 

In fact if any of you have seen Fist of Legend, Huo is the teacher who Jet Li's character comes back from japan to avenge. So basically in Fearless he's playing his own teacher from Fist of legend.


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## Piratecat (Sep 13, 2006)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> They need to make a fictional "epic" because they have precious few real stories to tell about victories over the Evil Westerners.



No politics, please.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 13, 2006)

librarius_arcana said:
			
		

> Well I know that Chan is doing at least another Rush Hour movie



Thought that was canned because of the other guy (can't remember his name) asking for two much money.


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## mmu1 (Sep 13, 2006)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> .
> Having actually seen the movie it's less about the "evil Westerners" than it is about a man fighting his own demons and overcoming his own hubris and obsession with being number one.




It'd hardly be the first time advertising makes the movie look like something it's not... but _Hero_ really soured me on Jet Li, so I'll be reading the reviews very carefully on this one.


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## librarius_arcana (Sep 13, 2006)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> While Jackie Chan has good reason to retire from the action flicks,





wa?! dude don't let the years throw you, hes still good to go, 
Crap I'd miss him if he went,

You..you...you just shut you mouth Rackhir, LoL


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## Rackhir (Sep 13, 2006)

librarius_arcana said:
			
		

> wa?! dude don't let the years throw you, hes still good to go,
> Crap I'd miss him if he went,
> 
> You..you...you just shut you mouth Rackhir, LoL




"It's not the years Hon. It's the mileage." 

I doubt he'll retire from the comedic roles, he can do those for many years to come. So I don't think we'll need to worry about that. Just don't expect him to be sliding down the sides of skyscrapers or faling three stories and smashing through awnings any more.


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## ShinHakkaider (Sep 13, 2006)

Jackie Chans last GREAT movie in IMHO was Drunken Master II. 

There have been movies that have had one or two good sequences in them (the rooftop fight at the end of Who Am I?) but for the most part if you've followed his career since the early 80's you can see how the wear and tear has slowed him down quite a bit. 

Also his choice of projects has been less than spectacular, particularly his american films, the best of which by far was Shanghai Noon, but even that's not saying alot. 

Yeah, it's time for him to retire and do fight cheorography or direct like his buddy Sammo Hong Kam Bo. I'd love to see a Tony Jaa Movie directed by Sammo Hong or Jackie Chan.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 13, 2006)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> "It's not the years Hon. It's the mileage."
> 
> I doubt he'll retire from the comedic roles, he can do those for many years to come. So I don't think we'll need to worry about that. Just don't expect him to be sliding down the sides of skyscrapers or faling three stories and smashing through awnings any more.



But will Hollywood producers hire him for his acting, despite having put him in mostly bad-to-boring films?

(Yep, not only do Americans know how to bastardize imported entertainment like anime, they know how to derail imported actors. Hollywood is bad ju-ju medicine.)


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## librarius_arcana (Sep 13, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> But will Hollywood producers hire him for his acting, despite having put him in mostly bad-to-boring films?
> 
> (Yep, not only do Americans know how to bastardize imported entertainment like anime, they know how to derail imported actors. Hollywood is bad ju-ju medicine.)




Hey I liked the Rush Hours, but true 80 days etc did suck ass, 

Not all bad though,


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## takyris (Sep 13, 2006)

I liked *Rush Hour*. It didn't set the bar high, but it nailed what it wanted to nail -- a basic buddy cop movie that happened to star two non-white guys, which is actually pretty cool.

What drove stakes of pain through my eyes was "The Tuxedo", and what lit those stakes on fire was "The Medallion". I like Jackie Chan being Jackie Chan. There are many other people I'd rather watch do wire-fu or bluescreen acting.

("Tuxedo" hurt so badly because it held such promise. Okay, wire-fu, but wow, the concept that the secret agent really IS nothing but the suit? Wow, that's a neat little subversive kick on... wait, what the heck is Jennifer Love Hewitt doing here? Why is she shouting, "Front Attack One, Go!" and then suddenly doing leg sweeps and shouting, "Hey, I'm pretty good!" for no reason? Why is she watching Jackie drop to what appears to be his death and agonizing over the RING that got pulled from her finger instead?

"Medallion" was ten pounds of bad in a five-pound bag, but at least it had Claire Forlani. I have no idea if she can act, but she didn't actively attempt to destroy the entire premise of the movie.)


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## librarius_arcana (Sep 13, 2006)

Tuxedo and The Medallion? you might as well mention Around the World in 80 Days, Shanghai Knights, that pretty much covers most of the crappy stuff,

I think most of this came from bad advice,


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## trancejeremy (Sep 13, 2006)

Jackie Chan is in his mid-late 50s.  He's too old to do anything but light action/wire work movies these days.

Jet Li can probably still do them, but he's probably upset that most of his US movies have not done all that well. I mean, that Unleashed of his was seemingly straight to DVD after the awful "The One" flopped.  


And Chow Yun Fat hasn't exactly done well in Hollywood. Considering he was basically the coolest actor from HK, he's only had a few Hollywood roles, and most of them stink. PoTC3 is probably the only one that is good, along with Anna & the King (and that he had to star with Jodie Foster, bleh)

At least he never had to do a movie with Jean-Claude Van Damme.


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## frankthedm (Sep 14, 2006)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> I really wish he had chosen something other than yet another "Evil Foriegners out to humiliate and destroy the Noble Chinese" film for his last Martial Arts flick. As China rises in power the constant harping on past slights and insults makes me nervous and I don't plan to go see it for that reason. Which is sad, since I've really enjoyed his non-rapper related films.



I just did not care for how much the trailer makes the movie seem like it focuses on the one guy. But thats movies for you. I had my hopes up since when i first saw this i thought the movie was going to be about The Boxer Rebelion/Uprising.

"The One" was a fine movie. I would love to see a sequel set on the prison planet.


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## Dog Moon (Sep 14, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> "The One" was a fine movie. I would love to see a sequel set on the prison planet.




Seriously?  I think you're the first person I've ever heard say that.

For Jet Li, his movies seemed to either be awesome [kiss of the dragon, hero] or crap [the one, cradle to the grave], or at least the American ones.

*Above is simply my opinion, btw.

Never did like Jackie Chan much.  Too much slapstick martial arts, though Rush Hours and Shanghai Noon were good.


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## Rackhir (Sep 14, 2006)

takyris said:
			
		

> What drove stakes of pain through my eyes was "The Tuxedo", and what lit those stakes on fire was "The Medallion". I like Jackie Chan being Jackie Chan. There are many other people I'd rather watch do wire-fu or bluescreen acting.




I think it was Roger Ebert who pointed out that Hollywood has to think of "magic" ways to explain why Jackie Chan can do the things he can do in real life.

I've also really been disapointed with the Hollywood fare that our favorite HK action stars and directors have been handled.

Though I liked "The One" as well. Not a great film, but decent popcorn time.


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 14, 2006)

As far as Jackie Chan quitting goes, I've seen him say in different places that he wants to distance himself from the martial arts movies because he wants to make more children accessible (non-violent) fare, to (most recently) wanting to be seen as an actor like Robert de Niro.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Sep 14, 2006)

I rather liked The One as well, it wasn't just some decent wire-fu it was different enough that it was pretty cool.  And when I saw it in the cinema I hoped it would generate a sequal since they set up an open end for it.  Alas I heard some rumors about a sequal being planned or written than dropped because of the way the first one tanked.

On the other side I went in and sat all through Hero all the way even though I hated it.  The wire-fu was just plain beautiful.  But it was also a peace of nationalist propaganda originally produced and filmed by a production group entirely owned by the Chinese Army, and the entire plot and thought processes in the movie were SO alien I thought they were disgusting.

That's one of those big hurdles with lots of famous Asian actors from the various movie scenes over there.  The culture and even the way people think and what they like in a movie is so different it's very hard to jump that gap successfully.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 14, 2006)

librarius_arcana said:
			
		

> Hey I liked the Rush Hours, but true 80 days etc did suck ass,
> 
> Not all bad though,



That's what I mean when I stated "*mostly* bad-to-boring films."

_Rush Hour_ is the only good Jackie Chan film with Hollywood handprints on it. Aside from that, bad ju-ju medicine.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 14, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> As far as Jackie Chan quitting goes, I've seen him say in different places that he wants to distance himself from the martial arts movies because he wants to make more children accessible (non-violent) fare, to (most recently) wanting to be seen as an actor like Robert de Niro.



I don't think the audience would buy a Chinese goodfella, or a Corleone.  :\


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## Ranger REG (Sep 14, 2006)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> That's one of those big hurdles with lots of famous Asian actors from the various movie scenes over there.  The culture and even the way people think and what they like in a movie is so different it's very hard to jump that gap successfully.



Yeah, and that's when Hollywood thought of a stoopid solution: let's westernize imported films.

Many years later, the _Complete Warrior_ samurai class is born.

*shakes head in disappointment* Baka.


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## trancejeremy (Sep 14, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> I don't think the audience would buy a Chinese goodfella, or a Corleone.  :\





Actually though, a remake of one of the best Hong Kong crime dramas (Infernal Affairs) is about to be released ("The Departed", starring a bunch of A list guys, directed by Martin Scorcsese)

Granted, it's been Americanized (or East-Coast-ized), but pretty much same basic plot.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 14, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Actually though, a remake of one of the best Hong Kong crime dramas (Infernal Affairs) is about to be released ("The Departed", starring a bunch of A list guys, directed by Martin Scorcsese)
> 
> Granted, it's been Americanized (or East-Coast-ized), but pretty much same basic plot.



Meh. I can forgive that (like _The Magnificent Seven_ is a western adaptation of Kurosawa's _The Seven Samurai_). It's when Leonardo starts doing gun-fu moves would I definitely invoke great disappointment.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 14, 2006)

Let's see... Jet Lee and my reaction to him.

Leathal Weapon 4: Alright, this guy is awesome. Need to get him in some other films.

The One: Popcorn movie but not my type. M'eh.

Kiss Of the Dragon: If they edited out the ugly girl playing the doped up hooker, this might've been a very solid movie but as it stands, one of the worst movies I've seen.

Hero: I enjoyed it. Lots of great fighting sequences and I'm afraid I'm very insensitive to the PC stuff going on as I neither know about it or spend nights awake worrying about the Chineese government.

Craddle 2 the Grave: Amusing but why does he let a known criminal walk away? Why is he 'surprised' by DMX when he's beaten senseless so many other people? (Same problem in Exit Wounds) 

Unleashed: Pretty good popcorn flick. Probably my favorite 'western' movie of his.

Haven't seen any of his 'Once Upon A Time In China' films though.


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## ShinHakkaider (Sep 14, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Let's see... Jet Lee and my reaction to him.
> 
> Leathal Weapon 4: Alright, this guy is awesome. Need to get him in some other films.
> 
> ...




So basically you havent seen any of his good films then...

The only Once Upon A Time in China movies that matter are 1 & 2. Skip the rest. 2 is a little slow around the middle but is worth it for the fight between Jet Li and Donny Yen alone. 

Tai-Chi Master (Us title: Twin Warriors) is pretty awesome as well.

Fist of Legend which is basically a remake of Fists of Fury is blow for blow probably his most action packed movie. 

The two Fong Sai Yuk movies (US titles: The Legend and The Legend 2) are pretty funny and fairly action packed as well. 

I'm certain that there are more good movies of his that I'm forgetting to mention though.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 14, 2006)

Thanks for the tip.

I'll be picking up some after I complete my collection of Zatoichi films!


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## Ranger REG (Sep 14, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Let's see... Jet Lee and my reaction to him.
> 
> Leathal Weapon 4: Alright, this guy is awesome. Need to get him in some other films.



It's his first US appearance in a Hollywood film, and the first I've seen his performance. Not bad, but the film overall stank.


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## Villano (Sep 14, 2006)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> I really wish he had chosen something other than yet another "Evil Foriegners out to humiliate and destroy the Noble Chinese" film for his last Martial Arts flick.




I wish he would have gone out on something original, too.  Isn't this the plot of, like, half of his period kung-fu films?  :\


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 14, 2006)

We make movies about evil foreigners out to destroy America, why wouldn't it be the same over there?  I liked Hero a lot.  It was a fun movie.


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## Rackhir (Sep 14, 2006)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> We make movies about evil foreigners out to destroy America, why wouldn't it be the same over there?  I liked Hero a lot.  It was a fun movie.




Well "Hero" wasn't the film we were talking about, but obsessing over past grievences was a significant factor leading to WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Arab-Israeli wars, The Balkan's conflicts, Genocide in Rwanda and numerous other conflicts in the recorded history of mankind.

It's not something I lay awake at night worrying about, but it does make me nervous for the long term. China is going to be a great power one day, not too long from now, short of a complete societal collapse. Given the increasing tenousness of the Communist Party's historical justifications for staying in power, it's all too easy to see them turning to rabid aggressive nationalism to deflect the population's discontent and anger. It's not like they'd be the first to do so.


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## Mallus (Sep 14, 2006)

"Evil foreigners" never go out of style. Nor do they remain the same group as you move from country to country.

This thread reminds me that I have to buy "Drunken Master 2". And possibly "Rumble in Vancouver". Or is it the Bronx...


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## trancejeremy (Sep 14, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Meh. I can forgive that (like _The Magnificent Seven_ is a western adaptation of Kurosawa's _The Seven Samurai_). It's when Leonardo starts doing gun-fu moves would I definitely invoke great disappointment.




Actually, not all HK movies have gun-fu in them.  The original had a whole lot of tension (one of the most gripping movies I've ever seen), but almost no action...


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## Villano (Sep 15, 2006)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> We make movies about evil foreigners out to destroy America, why wouldn't it be the same over there?




I was thinking the same thing, however, it is a little different with some of these movies.  I can overlook the evil guy who happens to be foreign or villains who represent a foreign government or group (like, say, The Russian Mob).   The problem I have is when many different people from very different countries are all portrayed as being evil for no apparent reason.

For example, in Master of the Flying Guillotine, there is a martial arts contest with people from around the world (India, Thailand, Japan, etc) competing.  When the villain shows up and seeks assitance in killing the hero, all the foreign fighters join him.   There's no reason for this.  After all, they are just fighters in a competition.  They'll gladly kill someone because, well, they are evil foreigners.

Anyway, back to Fearless.  It looks to be an incredibly fictionalized account of this guy's life.  According to Wikipedia (don't read its entry unless you want spoilers), the film is about "The Foreign Chambers of Commerce" efforts to humiliate the hero, Huo Yuanjia, as a way to degrade the Chinese, so they set him up in a series of fights against  a British boxer, a German spear fighter, a Spanish fencer, and a Japanese fighter.  Also, earlier in the film, the hero fights an American wrestler named "Hercules O'Brien" who insults the Chinese by calling them the "sick men of the East" (whatever that means).

The life of the person it's based on seems to be very different.  First, it was a Russian wrestler who insulted the Chinese.  Huo Yuanjia never actually fights the guy, who backs down and claims it was just pro wrestling theatrics.   If the wrestler was Russian, who was Hercules O'Brien?  He was a British Boxer.  Huo Yuanjia never actually fought him either (they were trying to work out the rules and O'Brien eventually left the country).  He _did_ fight and defeat 10 members of the Japanese Judo team, though.

I guess the filmmakers decided that fights with American, German, and Spanish guys was more exciting than scenes of Huo Yuanjia and Hercules O'Brien hammering out rules to a fight that eventually never happens.


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## Arnwyn (Sep 15, 2006)

Mallus said:
			
		

> "Evil foreigners" never go out of style. Nor do they remain the same group as you move from country to country.



Yes indeed. Complaining that another country does it is... silly.


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## Lord Pendragon (Sep 15, 2006)

I've always had a soft spot in my heart for _Romeo Must Die_, myself.  "I love American football."  heh.

As far as _Fearless_ goes, I'll definitely see it at some point.  It looks awesome.  Regarding the nationalistic issues, I don't have a problem with them.  I cheered Rocky Balboa when he beat the stuffing out of the Russian guy in _Rocky IV_.  It'd be somewhat hypocritical of me to object to a Chinese hero whupping on foreigners now.


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## ShinHakkaider (Sep 15, 2006)

Villano said:
			
		

> For example, in Master of the Flying Guillotine, there is a martial arts contest with people from around the world (India, Thailand, Japan, etc) competing.  When the villain shows up and seeks assitance in killing the hero, all the foreigner fighters join him.   There's no reason for this.  After all, they are just fighters in a competition.  They'll gladly kill someone because, well, they are evil foreigners.




I also think that fighting the fighters of different nationalities is a staple in martial arts films quite frankly. I mean the same thing is done at the end of Game of Death, and most recently in Tom Yun Goong w/ Tony Jaa. Heck, look at all of the fighting video games for petes sake. Tekken, Virtua Fighter, I even think that Dhalsim uses the East Indian fighter from Master of the Flying Guillotine as it's template. Anyway I way trying to avoid commenting on the whole "evil foreigners" thing. I think it's really kind of silly being that there are fair amount of US made action movies use the evil foreigners idea especially the british villian. You know Rocky IV (Russian), Die Hard (European), Marked for Death (Jamaican) and the list can go on an on and on if I bother to go digging and not use the examples off the top of my head. 



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> Anyway, back to Fearless.  It looks to be an incredibly fictionalized account of this guy's life.  According to Wikipedia (don't read its entry unless you want spoilers), the film is about "The Foreign Chambers of Commerce" efforts to humiliate the hero, Huo Yuanjia, as a way to degrade the Chinese, so they set him up in a series of fights against  a British boxer, a German spear fighter, a Spanish fencer, and a Japanese fighter.  Also, earlier in the film, the hero fights an American wrestler named "Hercules O'Brien" who insults the Chinese by calling them the "sick men of the East" (whatever that means).




Like I said before I saw this movie several months ago and watched it again a few weeks ago and the entire conflict with the foreign chamber of of commerce takes place via flash forward in the first 5 - 10 min of the movie and then the last 30 min of the movie. If the movie has a real antagonist it's Yuan jia huo HIMSELF. He sees some thing happen as a child that molds him into a not so nice adult. For a large portion of the film he's his worst enemy until he's forced to take a good look at himself and what he means to his friends and country men. 

The other thing to consider is how films are marketed and sold, we've sent more than our share of jingoistic action movies over seas and relied on the universal theme of mindless violence to sell tickets. To be annoyed that a movie made by the chinese mainly,for a chinese audience is a little..well I dont know what it is, but it seems a little strange. I'm a black man born in brooklyn NY and grew up watching predominately white heroes (until I discovered Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan in the early 70's) save the world for most of my life. So I really dont see what the problem is here.

But hey maybe it's just me...


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## Villano (Sep 15, 2006)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I also think that fighting the fighters of different nationalities is a staple in martial arts films quite frankly. I mean the same thing is done at the end of Game of Death, and most recently in Tom Yun Goong w/ Tony Jaa. Heck, look at all of the fighting video games for petes sake. Tekken, Virtua Fighter, I even think that Dhalsim uses the East Indian fighter from Master of the Flying Guillotine as it's template. Anyway I way trying to avoid commenting on the whole "evil foreigners" thing. I think it's really kind of silly being that there are fair amount of US made action movies use the evil foreigners idea especially the british villian. You know Rocky IV (Russian), Die Hard (European), Marked for Death (Jamaican) and the list can go on an on and on if I bother to go digging and not use the examples off the top of my head.




Not to drag this out, but like I said, I have no problem with a foreign group as a threat or a villain who happens to be foreign.  My point is when the villains are all from different places with no connection to one another and are just evil for evil's sake (and there isn't a single good foreigner among them).  Dhalsim isn't evil.  Most characters in "tournament" movies aren't evil, merely opponents.

During Rocky IV, he doesn't encounter a random Indian guy who tries to murder him.  And then meets a Chinese guy who wants him dead.  And then a killer Italian.  And then the Japanese chef jumps him at the restaurant.  He just wants to fight Drago, who happens to be Russian.


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## Lord Pendragon (Sep 15, 2006)

Villano said:
			
		

> During Rocky IV, he doesn't encounter a random Indian guy who tries to murder him.  And then meets a Chinese guy who wants him dead.  And then a killer Italian.  And then the Japanese chef jumps him at the restaurant.  He just wants to fight Drago, who happens to be Russian.



You're telling me you don't think there was a nationalistic undertone to _Rocky IV_?  Or that the movie wasn't making a statement about American heart versus Russian authoritarianism?


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## Villano (Sep 15, 2006)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> You're telling me you don't think there was a nationalistic undertone to _Rocky IV_?  Or that the movie wasn't making a statement about American heart versus Russian authoritarianism?




No, I didn't say that.  Doesn't anyone actually read my posts?  :\ 

You are right, it was about America vs Russian.  My point was (once again for clarity) it didn't claim that _all_ foreigners are bad. 

Here's my original post:



> I was thinking the same thing, however, it is a little different with some of these movies. I can overlook the evil guy who happens to be foreign or villains who represent a foreign government or group (like, say, The Russian Mob). The problem I have is when many different people from very different countries are all portrayed as being evil for no apparent reason.
> 
> For example, in Master of the Flying Guillotine, there is a martial arts contest with people from around the world (India, Thailand, Japan, etc) competing. When the villain shows up and seeks assitance in killing the hero, all the foreign fighters join him. There's no reason for this. After all, they are just fighters in a competition. They'll gladly kill someone because, well, they are evil foreigners.




If Rocky IV took place in an international competition in which he had to fight someone from Russia, Italy, Spain, Japan, etc.  and they all turned out to be evil and wanted to kill him for no reason (or because Drago said, "Let's all kill the American"), then that would be a good example.  Rocky IV was about Rocky vs Drago, not "Rocky vs everyone in the entire world who isn't American and, oh, by the way, they are all evil and want him dead".


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 15, 2006)

And looking at Wikedpia, it notes that Jet Li has Rogue coming out in '07 so at least one more movie from him eh?


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## Rackhir (Sep 15, 2006)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I also think that fighting the fighters of different nationalities is a staple in martial arts films quite frankly. I mean the same thing is done at the end of Game of Death, and most recently in Tom Yun Goong w/ Tony Jaa. Heck, look at all of the fighting video games for petes sake. Tekken, Virtua Fighter, I even think that Dhalsim uses the East Indian fighter from Master of the Flying Guillotine as it's template.




My complaints have nothing to do with there being foriegners or even foriegners as bad guys per se. The bad guys in Jackie Chan's Project A movies were foriegners, but the movies were also set in "foriegn countries" so I didn't have a problem with that. In Japan there were a series of Mafia vs Yakuza movies and I don't really have a problem with that since it's not like mobsters are red cross volunteers. 



			
				ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> Anyway I way trying to avoid commenting on the whole "evil foreigners" thing. I think it's really kind of silly being that there are fair amount of US made action movies use the evil foreigners idea especially the british villian. You know Rocky IV (Russian), Die Hard (European), Marked for Death (Jamaican) and the list can go on an on and on if I bother to go digging and not use the examples off the top of my head.




Again it's not so much the fact that the villians are foriegners that bothers me, it's the emphasis that is placed _in the trailer_ on the foriegners being there to "humiliate" and "Bring China to it's knees." and this is in the American trailer! I can only imagine what the chinese trailer was like.

If it was also only this film that had this sort of theme that wouldn't bother me. But there are a substantial number of movies with similar themes that I've seen and I don't exactly go out of the way to catch martial arts flicks about evil foriegners. Plus, I keep reading reports about how the Chinese Communist party is increasingly turning to rabid nationalism to help butress their rule and deflect criticisim of their missdeeds. 

You're examples are of course true, but the thing that is different at least as I see it is that Hans Gruber isn't bad and evil _because_ he's a foriegner, it's because he's the bad guy, who happens to be a foriegner. Probably because Alan Rickman sounds so cool doing that accent. Hans is a foriegner in large part probably due to a reverse snobbery. We tend to look at Europeans as being more cultured and sophisticated than americans, especially working class cops like John McClane.

However, if the US started making dozens of different movies about various attrocities that the British had committed in the American Revolution and the war of 1812, in which characters complained constantly about how the evil british robbed us of our "birthright" of Canada. I'd start being concerned about that too. I've also known americans who've complained about Mel Gibson's movie "The Patriot" precisely because the british characters were portrayed as evil for no good reason and in contradiction of the historical record. I think that is a valid complaint about the film.



			
				ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> Like I said before I saw this movie several months ago and watched it again a few weeks ago and the entire conflict with the foreign chamber of of commerce takes place via flash forward in the first 5 - 10 min of the movie and then the last 30 min of the movie. If the movie has a real antagonist it's Yuan jia huo HIMSELF. He sees some thing happen as a child that molds him into a not so nice adult. For a large portion of the film he's his worst enemy until he's forced to take a good look at himself and what he means to his friends and country men.
> 
> The other thing to consider is how films are marketed and sold, we've sent more than our share of jingoistic action movies over seas and relied on the universal theme of mindless violence to sell tickets. To be annoyed that a movie made by the chinese mainly,for a chinese audience is a little..well I dont know what it is, but it seems a little strange. I'm a black man born in brooklyn NY and grew up watching predominately white heroes (until I discovered Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan in the early 70's) save the world for most of my life. So I really dont see what the problem is here.
> 
> But hey maybe it's just me...




I would be very pleased if it's not the sort of film they seem to be billing it as. Also I'm quite frankly not a fan of mindlessly jingoistic american films like the aformentioned Rocky IV either.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 15, 2006)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Also I'm quite frankly not a fan of mindlessly jingoistic american films like the aformentioned Rocky IV either.




You're a sick man.

How can you not love the dialog in Rocky IV?

"If he dies, he dies."

"I must break you."

"I fight for me!"

Truly some of the best cinema ever!


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## Rackhir (Sep 15, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> You're a sick man.
> 
> How can you not love the dialog in Rocky IV?
> 
> ...




You mean there was actually DIALOG in Rocky IV? All I was able to make out was a bunch of heavily accented mumbling.


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## Felon (Sep 17, 2006)

There's a bit of a double-standard for fans of these movies. When the movie's an Asian import, the cheesy dialogue, shallow characters, and absurd plot is expected and accepted. I suspect "The One" would've been considered a classic if it hadn't come out of Hollywood. 

Man, look at how popular "Returner" was. A horrible, gimmick-driven, Matrix derivative with silly characters and a nonsensical plot, yet it was considered a real discovery by fans in the U.S. But pretty much any criticism you can level at "The One" could be applied to it as well.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 17, 2006)

Felon said:
			
		

> There's a bit of a double-standard for fans of these movies. When the movie's an Asian import, the cheesy dialogue, shallow characters, and absurd plot is expected and accepted.



By Americans? Really? Nah!!!!   

Well, that's one way the mainlanders can discriminate asian entertainment.


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## Lord Pendragon (Sep 17, 2006)

Villano said:
			
		

> No, I didn't say that.  Doesn't anyone actually read my posts?  :\
> 
> You are right, it was about America vs Russian.  My point was (once again for clarity) it didn't claim that _all_ foreigners are bad.



Drago didn't just "happen to be a Russian."  He was symbolic of the Russian governmental machine.  Rocky defeating Drago, and the Russian people cheering, was a statement.

While the movie's scope did not encompass all foreigners, it was a blatant attack on a foreign government, and an aggrandizement of ours.  America is wonderful, Russia is evil.  Heck, at the end of the movie even the Russians were cheering Rocky.  Conversion at its finest.

I feel that you're splitting hairs.  One kind of foreigner or several kinds, the central theme is the same.  Our country is better than others.  Our way of life is better than others.  Be proud to be us.  We accept movies like _Rocky IV_ and _Independence Day_ in the US without batting an eye, but somehow China isn't allowed to put out Nationalistic movies because they're Communist?

Don't get me wrong, I do not support China's government.  One set of grandparents were driven out of China to Taiwan by the Communists.

But accepting nationalism in one's own movies, but decrying it in another country's, is inappropriate, IMO.  If a movie's agenda gets in the way of its entertainment value, then I will condemn it for being a bad movie that fails to entertain.  But a movie can contain nationalist undertones and still be highly entertaining, in which case it succeeds.  _Hero_ was such a movie, IMO.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Sep 18, 2006)

First off I saw Hero, and I loved most of it, the action scenes were brilliant wire-fu.  My problem wasn't even really with the nationalism directly.  It was with the characters themselves and the rigidly deterministic mindset of their actions.  The way their actions were so stylized that they were simply alien to me.  

Such as the two later assasins, broken sword and snow.  They engage in a stupid and pointless fight over an issue neither of them are going to influence.  Then broken sword "shows his love" for snow by letting her kill him?  What sort of mindless purile drivel is that?  And after she kills him she commits suicide, when she drew down on him in the first place, if she was so heartbroken over killing him she committed suicide why did she draw down in the first place? You don't draw a lethal weapon unless you intend to kill with it.  

Then there's the Nameless Hero, I can see him realizing that the emperor had to live to unite the land.  My problem is that once he spares the emperor's life the emperor now owes him his life.  And even assuming the emperor still orders him killed it's perfectly clear he could have escaped any time he wanted if he tried, or even turn around and go right through those guards to kill the emperor anyway for his betrayal after his life was spared.  So why did he just stand there and allow them to kill him, it makes no sense at all?


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## Villano (Sep 18, 2006)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> Drago didn't just "happen to be a Russian."  He was symbolic of the Russian governmental machine.  Rocky defeating Drago, and the Russian people cheering, was a statement.
> 
> While the movie's scope did not encompass all foreigners, it was a blatant attack on a foreign government, and an aggrandizement of ours.  America is wonderful, Russia is evil.  Heck, at the end of the movie even the Russians were cheering Rocky.  Conversion at its finest.
> 
> I feel that you're splitting hairs.  One kind of foreigner or several kinds, the central theme is the same.  Our country is better than others.  Our way of life is better than others.  Be proud to be us.  We accept movies like _Rocky IV_ and _Independence Day_ in the US without batting an eye, but somehow China isn't allowed to put out Nationalistic movies because they're Communist?




It isn't about splitting hairs, but a missed point.  You said that Rocky IV's scope "did not encompass all foreigners".  That was my point!  I was talking about a film that portrayed *all* foreigners as being evil.  As you said, Rocky IV didn't do that.  I also said that I had no problem with a villain representing a foreign government.  

On one hand, you have a film which represents a conflict between people from countries that are currently in some from of conflict with each other.  The other shows a hero beset by people from a multitude of countries who are all out to kill him simply because they are evil foreigners.   One makes a political statement, while the other is xenophobia.


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## Taelorn76 (Sep 18, 2006)

*Jet Li Confirms Jackie Chan Team-Up*

Comingsoon.net has an article on Li and Chen teaming up on a possible kids movie.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 18, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Comingsoon.net has an article on Li and Chen teaming up on a possible kids movie.



So they're continuing the _Spy Kids_ franchise, now with Asian kids. Cool.   

Let's hope he won't be the next _Pacifier._


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## trancejeremy (Sep 18, 2006)

Felon said:
			
		

> There's a bit of a double-standard for fans of these movies. When the movie's an Asian import, the cheesy dialogue, shallow characters, and absurd plot is expected and accepted. I suspect "The One" would've been considered a classic if it hadn't come out of Hollywood.
> 
> Man, look at how popular "Returner" was. A horrible, gimmick-driven, Matrix derivative with silly characters and a nonsensical plot, yet it was considered a real discovery by fans in the U.S. But pretty much any criticism you can level at "The One" could be applied to it as well.




I disagree - the Returner was a great movie. 

I don't understand how it can be a Matrix derivative. It was more a Terminator derivative in terms of plot. And in terms of action scenes, the Matrix copied from asian movies, not the other way around.

Still, what made the Returner good was the characters.  The main guy was likeable.  The villain was great - I love how in pretty much every fight scene, he grabs one of his own henchmen as a human shield.

While in The One, it was a standard Good twin, evil twin movie. Which frankly, always suck.  Plus all the fight scenes were bad CGI, I saw a making of it - basically all Jet Li did was hit tennis balls on a string, and they added the rest in.


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## Lord Pendragon (Sep 19, 2006)

Villano said:
			
		

> The other shows a hero beset by people from a multitude of countries who are all out to kill him simply because they are evil foreigners.   One makes a political statement, while the other is xenophobia.



I think a case can be made for China having a tumultous relationship with "the West" just as we had with the USSR.  The fact that it's several countries instead of one doesn't make the representation less symbolic and a product of unprovoked xenophobia.

Draco didn't kill Apollo simply because he was an "evil Russian".  It was a statement about the merciless Russian machine.

Similarly, the humiliators in _Fearless_ may not be evil merely for the sake of being evil.  they could serve to make a statement--a negative statement--about how the West has treated China (at least in the minds of certain Chinese.)


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## Felon (Sep 23, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I disagree - the Returner was a great movie.
> 
> I don't understand how it can be a Matrix derivative. It was more a Terminator derivative in terms of plot. And in terms of action scenes, the Matrix copied from asian movies, not the other way around.




Think it's safe to say the guy in leather moving in bullet-time super-speed is pretty heavily derivative of the Matrix. But yes, it was derivative of Terminator, Independence Day, and a few other flicks too. The movie's spectacularly brainless. I particularly liked the way the aliens were given a big 180 at the end of the movie, so that they seemed like they were not so bad after all--the whole planetary genocide thing was just a misunderstanding. 



> Still, what made the Returner good was the characters.  The main guy was likeable.  The villain was great - I love how in pretty much every fight scene, he grabs one of his own henchmen as a human shield. While in The One, it was a standard Good twin, evil twin movie. Which frankly, always suck.  Plus all the fight scenes were bad CGI, I saw a making of it - basically all Jet Li did was hit tennis balls on a string, and they added the rest in.




As stated, the action in Returner and many other supposedly "great" Asian films are heavily CGI'ed, so you're not pointing any difference there. "The Stomr Riders" even shows all the green-screen effects during the closing credits. Frankly, the distinctions you're drawing just seem syptomatic of exactly what I saying. In a Hollywood flick, if the main guy is just blandly likable, and the villain is this ridiculous, over-the-top, one-dimensional dastard, the movie's lambasted for being uninspired and insulting the audience's intelligence.


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