# I'm getting increasingly worried about the fate of sorcerer



## MoonSong (Sep 30, 2022)

The newest UA doesn't feature sorcerers, however, it is full of content that makes me worried about the sorcerer. I started more confident, after all the arcane class spell list had all of these spells that used to be missing, so progress, right? Going from Bard, it seems that sorcerers will have to care about schools instead of a theme, more like one step forward, two steps backward. 

Subclass levels seem to be standardized across the board (good), but so far, they don't start at first level. (bad) And sorcerer is the kind of class where most of the theme is in the subclass. This would mean the class is going to have the theme forcefully watered down. Still, could be unfounded and mages will standardize to start at first....

And the most worrying, from reading the spellcasting description, it seems that all classes will prepare spells? 

When I talked about the chance to fix the sorcerer I was thinking more about making small adjustments. These changes might end up changing everything I love about sorcerers (strong theme from first level, stable identity, not having to deal with the very artificial scholarly lore...)


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## CleverNickName (Sep 30, 2022)

I share your concern.  Half the reason I would choose to play a sorcerer instead of a wizard is that I wouldn't have to fuss with preparing spells (it's bad enough that my DM won't let me use the Spell Points variant, so I'm still stuck with tracking spell slots).  The other half of the reason is the metamagic ability...which are pretty cool, I won't lie.

If sorcerers end up having to prepare spells, I worry it will feel like just another wizard.


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## tetrasodium (Sep 30, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> The newest UA doesn't feature sorcerers, however, it is full of content that makes me worried about the sorcerer. I started more confident, after all the arcane class spell list had all of these spells that used to be missing, so progress, right? Going from Bard, it seems that sorcerers will have to care about schools instead of a theme, more like one step forward, two steps backward.
> 
> Subclass levels seem to be standardized across the board (good), but so far, they don't start at first level. (bad) And sorcerer is the kind of class where most of the theme is in the subclass. This would mean the class is going to have the theme forcefully watered down. Still, could be unfounded and mages will standardize to start at first....
> 
> ...



the ranger (or maybe it was bard) has a thing where spells marked with a dagger always count as prepared without counting.  I wouldn't be surprised if sorcerer archetypes have similar always prepared spells.  With that said the spell lists themselves seem awfully complete in ways that leave little room for differentiation so classes & archetypes  themselves will need to do more heavy lifting to differentiate generic mage 1 from generic mage2 of a different class

I also have a suspicion that we might see something like sorcerers with more spell slots than wizard but wizards having some form of quantum spellbook or many more prep slots.  Not mentioning spellbooks in the new ritual casting entry is too suspicious.

Bard ranger & rogue were all classes that split into archetypes at level 3 before.  Frankly I wouldn't mind seeing the priest & mage classes start out a bit more generic before diversifying at level 3  either.  That even works for warlock & sorcerer simply by not being in tune enough with theit bloodline/patron to understand it until they start getting a bit more understanding.


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## Bill Zebub (Sep 30, 2022)

God I hope they make sorcerers more meaningfully different from Wizards.  I would love to see a completely different casting mechanic.


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## Horwath (Sep 30, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> God I hope they make sorcerers more meaningfully different from Wizards.  I would love to see a completely different casting mechanic.



spellpoints variant from DMG should be default Sorcerer casting method.
amount increased with current amount of sorcery points and Cha mod.


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## DeviousQuail (Sep 30, 2022)

Well the Sorcerer is paired with the Warlock and Wizard so my guess is they all start their subclasses at level 1. It has to be a lot easier to move Wizard ahead one level than to do the work of pulling two classes back. Let alone the flavor getting all screwy if you push back Warlocks and Sorcerers.

Right now they are:
Sorcerer - 1, 6, 14
Warlock - 1, 6, 10, 14 (not including level 3 boon)
Wizard - 2, 6, 10, 14

So give the Sorcerer the 1D&D Bard treatment and add another subclass feature and push wizard up one level and you get a standard 1, 6, 10, 14 for the mage group. Assuming no other additions you could swap Arcane Recovery to second level to fill in the vacated spot.

This could actually work out well for Sorcerers since they'll get another feature if my guess is right. In this one aspect anyway. Can't say I'm thrilled by the spell prep changes so far.


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## RoughCoronet0 (Sep 30, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> Right now they are:
> Sorcerer - 1, 6, 14
> Warlock - 1, 6, 10, 14 (not including level 3 boon)
> Wizard - 2, 6, 10, 14



Sorcerers also get a subclass feature at 18th level as well.


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## Horwath (Sep 30, 2022)

RoughCoronet0 said:


> Sorcerers also get a subclass feature at 18th level as well.



then 1,6,14,18 should be 1,6,10,14.


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## RoughCoronet0 (Sep 30, 2022)

Horwath said:


> then 1,6,14,18 should be 1,6,10,14.



Definitely, it was always a bit strange that the last two subclass features for the sorcerer came online so late.


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## DeviousQuail (Sep 30, 2022)

RoughCoronet0 said:


> Definitely, it was always a bit strange that the last two subclass features for the sorcerer came online so late.



Thanks for catching that. How I missed it I'll never know.

I agree moving them up to 10 and 14 would be a positive change. They did it with the rogue and I think it is great even if it delayed some other features.


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## Horwath (Sep 30, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> Thanks for catching that. How I missed it I'll never know.
> 
> I agree moving them up to 10 and 14 would be a positive change. They did it with the rogue and I think it is great even if it delayed some other features.



I believe that all subclass features of all classes will come online at levels 1(or 2 or 3), 6, 10 and 14.


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## Neonchameleon (Sep 30, 2022)

IMO Sorcerers should follow the Warlock pattern of 1 (3) 6 10 14 because the power source, like the patron is too fundamental to run the class without it. I don't know what the L3 possible proxy subclass should be or even if it's just an extra subclass feature but I like that warlocks still pick something important when everyone else is picking subclasses. Possibly metamagic is enough as it's pretty influential over the class.

Meanwhile wizards can use the normal 3, 6, 10, 14 because the base class is strong and as you don't actively lose spell schools L1 gives you enough to work with. There's ultimately no benefit in making wizards be weird and specialise at level 2 - and I'd either say the same about clerics or make their domains much more important.


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## Neonchameleon (Sep 30, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> God I hope they make sorcerers more meaningfully different from Wizards.  I would love to see a completely different casting mechanic.



I'm a huge advocate for the sorcerer having very strong subclasses on a weak core the way that started to happen in Tasha's. I want, for example, for the majority of the spell list to come from the subclass. And for the dragon sorcerer to be beefy enough to hang on the front lines. And for each subclass to be able to tap, and potentially recharge the font of power in a different way so for example the dragon sorcerer recharges 1pp by reducing a foe to 0hp and gets to turn power points into bonus action breath weapon.


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## Krachek (Sep 30, 2022)

All classes will prepare spells, will have access to ritual casting, and Sorcerer will have the same spell list as wizard. For base mechanics it will look quite the same.

Thematically sorcerer is innate, intuitive magic.
Wizard are scholar, learned magic.

How to mark this essential difference?

Using spell points may add some special flavor but it’s not so amazing. You manage your spell differently, but overall it’s converting 3 shield spell into a fireball. that is not an identity.

metamagic is the key element for sorcerer. Able to change the application of actual spells.
Tasha add the possibility to change element damage type (Transmuted spell), there is a need to alter shape ( cone, line, radius). At higher level sorcerer should be able to simply spend sorcerery point to do something cool. That may lead to abuse and DM fiat but that is the real essence of sorcerer.


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## Bill Zebub (Sep 30, 2022)

Yeah I agree spell points are not really that meaningfully different from spell slots. I’m not sure what would be. Some kind of risk mechanic would be cool, but I can’t imagine it happening. 

I suppose spell lists dictated, or mostly dictated, by sub-class, with metamagic, would suffice, but…I still don’t find it all that exciting.


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## TwoSix (Sep 30, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> IMO Sorcerers should follow the Warlock pattern of 1 (3) 6 10 14 because the power source, like the patron is too fundamental to run the class without it. I don't know what the L3 possible proxy subclass should be or even if it's just an extra subclass feature but I like that warlocks still pick something important when everyone else is picking subclasses. Possibly metamagic is enough as it's pretty influential over the class.
> 
> Meanwhile wizards can use the normal 3, 6, 10, 14 because the base class is strong and as you don't actively lose spell schools L1 gives you enough to work with. There's ultimately no benefit in making wizards be weird and specialise at level 2 - and I'd either say the same about clerics or make their domains much more important.



I could get behind making all subclasses either 3/6/10/14 or 1/3/6/10/14.


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## Krachek (Sep 30, 2022)

Some other meta magic options that need to come:

ability to choose any metamagic option, and pay a higher cost.
ability to cast a spell and removing concentration
ability to use  magic action surge and cast to real spell in a round. ( without MC into 2 levels of fighter!)
Ability to cast a spell using a lower spell slot, we just see this with the conjure barrage of the Ranger.
Ability to switch for line, cone, burst.

All these option need to be scaled, and not need to be available at level 1. But eventually a sorcerer might do this.


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## Frozen_Heart (Sep 30, 2022)

I'm looking at the arcane spell list and what's on it and in what school.

Either they're going to give sorcerers the same choice of spells as wizards (they won't). Or to stop them getting spells like magnificent mansion, true polymorph, and other restricted to wizard things, they're going to lock out the conjuration and transmutation spells from them. Which in turn will utterly gut the sorcerer of many spells which are extremely thematic or iconic for them.


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## Undrave (Sep 30, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> The newest UA doesn't feature sorcerers, however, it is full of content that makes me worried about the sorcerer. I started more confident, after all the arcane class spell list had all of these spells that used to be missing, so progress, right? Going from Bard, it seems that sorcerers will have to care about schools instead of a theme, more like one step forward, two steps backward.
> 
> Subclass levels seem to be standardized across the board (good), but so far, they don't start at first level. (bad) And sorcerer is the kind of class where most of the theme is in the subclass. This would mean the class is going to have the theme forcefully watered down. Still, could be unfounded and mages will standardize to start at first....
> 
> ...




If subclasses are now all on the same track, they could make the Sorcerer a series of class-less subclasses. You discover your bloodline and add it to whatever else you were doing already.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Sep 30, 2022)

My suggestion is to spend "essence points" (an idea from Magic of Incarnum) to "buy" metamagic effects, for example energy subtituion. Maybe we could use different pools of essence points, one to recover with only one turn to rest, other would need a short rest, and other with the most powerful effects a long rest.

Other idea is sorcerer subclasses as hibrid of arcane spellcaster and other power, for example divine soul with some divine spells, or wilder with some psionic powers.

Sorcerers are very cool with the concept of "my ancestor studied in Monster-High".


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## Baron Opal II (Oct 1, 2022)

I think that at the absolute worst, it will become a subclass of wizard where you have sorcery points instead of a spellbook, and pick bloodline abilities instead of guild abilities.


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## Neonchameleon (Oct 1, 2022)

Baron Opal II said:


> I think that at the absolute worst, it will become a subclass of wizard where you have sorcery points instead of a spellbook, and pick bloodline abilities instead of guild abilities.



Yeowch. Copying Pathfinder's stuff would be a huge downgrade in almost all ways. Especially thematically.


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## Frozen_Heart (Oct 1, 2022)

Never understood the logic of folding sorcerer into wizard. Though I'm 100% convinced they should be their own class, if I had to merge it with one, it would be the warlock.

Anything which can be a patron can be a bloodline and vice versa. The two have a lot in common with 'weird' spellcasting and identical subclass themes.

Someone on reddit today already suggested that they could share subclasses in 5.5e.


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## Neonchameleon (Oct 1, 2022)

Frozen_Heart said:


> Never understood the logic of folding sorcerer into wizard. Though I'm 100% convinced they should be their own class, if I had to merge it with one, it would be the warlock.
> 
> Anything which can be a patron can be a bloodline and vice versa. The two have a lot in common with 'weird' spellcasting and identical subclass themes.
> 
> Someone on reddit today already suggested that they could share subclasses in 5.5e.



If I had to fold two of the arcane casters into each other I'd fold _wizard_ into _sorcerer_. Where a wizard was a specialist sorcerer whose two special things were (a) using Int and (b) preparing from books rather than being a spells known class.

And as it's getting me cranky. *Other than the draconic bloodline D&D sorcerers are not and have never been bloodline based*. You're thinking of Pathfinder Sorcerers.*

D&D sorcerers _can_ be bloodline based. But a Shadow Sorcerer might also be a shadow sorcerer because they were born at the moment of the Grand Eclipse with all three moons lining up between the sun and the planet.  Or they might be shadow sorcerers because they blundered into the Shadowfell and survived there for years and had it seep into their bones. Or any of a dozen other reasons.

The wizard studied for their spells. The warlock bargained for them. The bard probably practiced for them. The sorcerer? Got lucky - or none of the above.

* Although draconic bloodline was the only suggestion offered in 3.0/3.5. There are reasons I find its fluff highly unimpressive.


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## MoonSong (Oct 4, 2022)

Undrave said:


> If subclasses are now all on the same track, they could make the Sorcerer a series of class-less subclasses. You discover your bloodline and add it to whatever else you were doing already.



Thank you for making my fears worse.


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## MoonSong (Oct 4, 2022)

Frozen_Heart said:


> Never understood the logic of folding sorcerer into wizard. Though I'm 100% convinced they should be their own class, if I had to merge it with one, it would be the warlock.
> 
> Anything which can be a patron can be a bloodline and vice versa. The two have a lot in common with 'weird' spellcasting and identical subclass themes.
> 
> Someone on reddit today already suggested that they could share subclasses in 5.5e.



I've expressed my thoughts on the matter. D&D 5E - On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)


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## Ruin Explorer (Oct 4, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> Subclass levels seem to be standardized across the board (good), but so far, they don't start at first level.



I wouldn't worry too much about that.

People are reading a ton into it, but all three classes were classes that started their subclasses at 3 anyway.

And WotC have said they prefer subclasses to start at 1 - literally in the video for the previous playtest IIRC.

So the only reason to start at 3 is compatibility. And the reason to stick with 1 for Sorcerers is the same - compatibility.


MoonSong said:


> And the most worrying, from reading the spellcasting description, it seems that all classes will prepare spells?



Personally that doesn't worry me.

Being able to prepare spells will just give them more flexibility. The main reason Sorcerers exist is to, as you seem to note, make it so you can have a caster who is either a natural, or "not a book wizard" or the like. If they can just pull spells from the ether, that's fine. I mean, that's already what they do - it's not like they can access spells not on their spell list.

I imagine they'll probably get to be the most powerful Arcane caster, because of metamagic allowing them to boost spells, and Wizards will get to be the most flexible, because of their spellbook allowing them to access a ridiculous number of spells effectively prepared.

Re: schools, I will be shocked if Sorcerers can't access all schools of Arcane.


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## Ruin Explorer (Oct 4, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> Thank you for making my fears worse.



I mean, it's genuinely not reasonable to assume that all classes ARE on the same track, that's the thing. There's no good evidence to support it, and WotC were saying they preferred level 1 literally last month. Compatibility seems like the best explanation for stuff being L3 here.


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## Undrave (Oct 4, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> Thank you for making my fears worse.



Sorry, that wasn’t my intention.


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## Li Shenron (Oct 4, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> And the most worrying, from reading the spellcasting description, it seems that all classes will prepare spells?




On the bright side, the only 5e shortcoming of being a Sorcerer used to be having the smallest number of known spells of every full caster, and now they will know A LOT. Except that, if they go with the currently rumored "four schools of magic only", the Wizard will of course know twice as many.

I don't know what to say, I've always wished that even Clerics and Druids had a fixed list of spells known, instead of access to the entire class spells list, and now 6e seems to give everyone full access to entire (or half) lists.

So what will really sort the Sorcerers from the Wizards will be the specific class features. Maybe they'll come up with some additions to the Sorcerer class. I wouldn't hold my breath though, usually WotC always falls for the "but Wizards should be able to do this (read: everything)" mantra, and will make sure Wizards eventually will steal the Sorcerer's schtik again, like with metamagic.


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## MoonSong (Oct 4, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> On the bright side, the only 5e shortcoming of being a Sorcerer used to be having the smallest number of known spells of every full caster, and now they will know A LOT. Except that, if they go with the currently rumored "four schools of magic only", the Wizard will of course know twice as many.



That's not a bright side. That is a cop out. Part of the essence, the feel of the sorcerer is the stability of character identity given by a fixed set of spells known. Sorcerer magic is not an active choice, and overall not an ongoing choice. Having to prepare spells is an active ongoing choice, and opting out of it is a betrayal of the party because then you are not contributing fully to the party and the party suffers because of it.  The possibility of full access to wizard spells is tempting, but I also expect them to suddenly curtail it for no reason. Like dragon sorcerers only get evocation, divine souls only get abjuration and so on. The more mechanics sorcerers and wizards have in common, the more the sorcerer will suffer.


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## Li Shenron (Oct 4, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> That's not a bright side. That is a cop out. Part of the essence, the feel of the sorcerer is the stability of character identity given by a fixed set of spells known.



Yes I was being ironic. As I just wrote elsewhere, I actually always wished that even Clerics and Druid had a limited/chosen known spell list. In addition to strengthening character identity, it also makes strategic thinking more important when levelling up.


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 4, 2022)

Known Spells are merely Prepared Spells that you just never change.

So if by some chance they decide to try out Sorcerers as Prepared casters in the Mage packet... just make your initial spell choices as your new slots arrive and never swap them out in the morning. Your results become the same as Known Spells except you end up with more of them over your career.


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## Maxperson (Oct 4, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> The newest UA doesn't feature sorcerers, however, it is full of content that makes me worried about the sorcerer. I started more confident, after all the arcane class spell list had all of these spells that used to be missing, so progress, right? Going from Bard, it seems that sorcerers will have to care about schools instead of a theme, more like one step forward, two steps backward.



I don't think this is as big of an issue as you think.  Yes the 2014 bard class doesn't say it is limited to 4 schools, but the bard list of spells you pick from consists primarily of those 4 schools. There some exceptions, but the vast majority are enchantment, divination, transmutation and illusion.  And healing spells are giving to you via Songs of Restoration.  

I really doubt sorcerers will see the same school limitation.


MoonSong said:


> And the most worrying, from reading the spellcasting description, it seems that all classes will prepare spells?



This is a power increase for sorcerers if they get the same ability as bards to just prepare any spell of any level that they can cast each day.  They will no longer be limited to just a few spells to pick from.

Personally I hate that change to the bards and will never allow it to be used in my game, but there it is.


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## UngeheuerLich (Oct 4, 2022)

I don´t see any scenario where they scrap a class. Full stop.


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## Mephista (Oct 4, 2022)

They'll likely print the sorcerer, but I am honestly afraid that they'll still end up as the "wizards stole my metamagic, Venn Diagram of Patrons and Origins is a circle" class. 

If that does happen, I'm just dropping Sorcerer and making Artificer into the third Mage class for my game.  Metamagics can be Mage feats, and druid can steal dragon soul, bards wild magic and warlocks already have abomination magic.


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## Yaarel (Oct 6, 2022)

Regarding a non-Wizard identity of the Sorcerer.

What if the Sorcerer serves as the missing Swordmage: a fullcaster with melee-range combat spells, who focuses on melee combat and is a Warrior?


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## Gorck (Oct 6, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> Regarding a non-Wizard identity of the Sorcerer.
> 
> What if the Sorcerer serves as the missing Swordmage: a fullcaster with melee-range combat spells, who focuses on melee combat and is a Warrior?



That would certainly line up well with my desire to have Sorcerers be CON-based instead of CHA-based.  After all, their magic comes innately from within, and being CON-based would improve their HP to survive in melee combat (especially if they only get Light Armor in this fictional redesign)


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## MoonSong (Oct 6, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> Regarding a non-Wizard identity of the Sorcerer.
> 
> What if the Sorcerer serves as the missing Swordmage: a fullcaster with melee-range combat spells, who focuses on melee combat and is a Warrior?



If that happened, how would we get the concepts that only sorcerer currently can?


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 6, 2022)

At that point, re-fluffing... the same way other folks currently have to do to get those class concepts the 5E game doesn't support, like the Psion, Warlord, Swordmage, Shaman, Oracle, Warden, and so forth.

Not the answer anyone really wants... but quite possibly could end up being the only answer that possibly works if things don't go as planned and changes happen.


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## Yaarel (Oct 6, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> If that happened, how would we get the concepts that only sorcerer currently can?



Which ones?

The various Sorcerer concepts − from Dragon to Shadow − can work as a Swordmage fullcaster warrior.

The concept of the Swordmage fullcaster is − melee attacks and defenses are spells or magical features.


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## Frozen_Heart (Oct 6, 2022)

Not a fan of the idea of a swordmage class being a full caster. Being capable in melee while also being good at magic is like having your cake and eating it too.

A dedicated swordmage should be a half caster like paladins, rangers, and artificers.


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## Pauln6 (Oct 6, 2022)

Personally I think Sorcerers and Warlocks needed a list of themed known spells instead of just slightly expanded lists to choose from.  I have a shadow sorcerer and the dearth of shadow based spells means I can't really get into it.  I ended up multiclassing in warlock to get a darker vibe going.


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## Mephista (Oct 6, 2022)

Frozen_Heart said:


> A dedicated swordmage should be a half caster like paladins, rangers, and artificers.



I consider warlock closer to a half caster than full.


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## Yaarel (Oct 6, 2022)

Mephista said:


> I consider warlock closer to a half caster than full.



Warlock is a full-on full-caster.

The Arcanums are proper high-slot spells at the appropriate class levels.


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## Neonchameleon (Oct 6, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> Warlock is a full-on full-caster.
> 
> The Arcanums are proper high-slot spells at the appropriate class levels.



But warlocks can't cast the volume of spells of normal casters - it's legit to consider Pact Magic less than full casting.


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## Frozen_Heart (Oct 6, 2022)

Warlock gets 9th level spells. They are absolutely a full caster.


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## Mephista (Oct 6, 2022)

There are a number of reasons to consider them less than a full caster, with plenty of similarities to other half casters.  EB treated as similar to a magic weapon attack, hex vs hunter marks, invocations v. Imbuements, access to a class pet (companion, mount, golem, chain pact), number of spells a day closer to half caster amount. Pact blade progression mirrors paladin attacks.

Pact magic is weird enough that it falls outside classic definitions of full or partial caster. To many, full caster implies a suite of low level slots for utility that pact magics lack, for instance.

My personal view is to treat them as a half caster with access to high circles of magic in place of auras or expertise. I understand some will disagree, but I feel there's enough design similarities to the half casters that it's worth using them as a comparison instead of wizard, cleric, druid and bard.

EDIT - In either case, my point was that I feel like bladelock fills the caster spell sword niche.  So it's not a great option for a unique  sorcerer, imho. And that's before we talk about Bladesinger or Eldritch Knight.


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