# Star Trek Picard SPOILERS thread



## MarkB

The series is off to a promising start with episode 1. It feels far more like a true continuation of the story of the Star Trek universe than I'd somehow been expecting. Above all, this story feels integrated into the shows and movies in fundamental fashion, with references both large and small that don't feel throwaway or gratuitous.

Whether it's large things like embracing and building upon the continuity established in Star Trek Nemesis and the backstory of the original Abramsverse movie, or references dating back into the TV series (I recognised Bruce Maddox's name, but had to take a trip down Memory Alpha lane to remind myself of the particulars), the story puts down some very strong roots in this first episode.

We finally get to learn who Dahj is - not a Borg as some speculated, but in some fashion Data's daughter, a fully artificial human with a positronic brain. Her apparent death seemed pretty thorough, but even though she does have a sister, I somehow don't entirely believe she's gone. They did a lot to establish the character, and it doesn't feel like they're done with her.

And now the waiting begins. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.


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## Raunalyn

It certainly seemed more introspective than I thought it would...certainly more in line with how the Star Trek universe "feels" than Discovery.

I like how the Romulans have "integrated" into Federation society. It seems as if there is a large faction that is doing the things that we are used to seeing from Romulans, but I'm not sure how large that faction is. 

The end of the episode certainly was interesting, and I am really curious to see the implications of the Borg Cube they are using as a starbase.


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## Morrus

Loved it. Loved the slower pacing, and the way it let scenes breathe. 

They're rebuilding a Borg Cube? Did I understand that right?

Patrick Stewart is finally starting to look old. For the last 30 years, his age hasn't visibly changed, but it's caught up with him now.


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## tomBitonti

They were doing _something_ with the damaged cube.

I just read that the Romulan supernova referenced in the episode is the event that let to the branched timeline of the reboot movies.  Does that put Picard in the original timeline?  Does anyone know if the Vulcan still exists in the series?


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## Morrus

Original timeline, yep.


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## Ryujin

A very strong start, that feels to me how Star Trek should.

I suspect that they're 'mining' the cube, rather than rebuilding it. It's the culmination of the best tech from thousands of assimilated species. That's got to be worth something.


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## MarkB

Yeah, it seems most likely that they are reverse-engineering the Borg technology. It will be interesting to see to what purpose, and how far they've got.

I'm also interested to find out the legal status of the operation. They have an ostensibly-human doctor on staff, and the facility appears to be guarded by a minefield rather than a cloaking device, so I don't get the impression that it's clandestine. But is there a link between them and the Romulan assailants who attacked Dahj?


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## Zardnaar

Need to rewatch it as I got sidetracked at the end. Not to bad so far.


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## bloodtide

It was a good, slow start.

Hum....so grow a synthetic from a single Data cell.  And synthetic's are all twins.  Just like Data....and Lore.  Humm...so what ever did happen to Lore's body?  Maybe each twin is one Data, one Lore...humm.

I guess the Romulans have Borg tech because Nero's ''Mining ship" was a super all powerful dreadnaught because it had Borg tech.

Of course Seven of Nine has all the Borg Tech in her database too.....right?  And.....say....ARE we in ''Future Janeways time" now?  So does the Federation have the awesome tech now?


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## Beleriphon

bloodtide said:


> Of course Seven of Nine has all the Borg Tech in her database too.....right?  And.....say....ARE we in ''Future Janeways time" now?  So does the Federation have the awesome tech now?




I think that's still a few years off.


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## Ryujin

Beleriphon said:


> I think that's still a few years off.




And we're going to see 7 of 9 soon enough, also.


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## Vael

Yeah, I'm all in. I really liked the premiere, it was well executed. Still eager for Disco S3, but this is hitting my nostaglia in all the right ways.


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## Truth Seeker

There were retcons on Data, which killed the comic book with his history after Nemesis. As for the recapturing on the essence of Data, is full of holes. Every part of him was artificial, nothing was organic. A true android, and as much I would like to entertain the notion on that pseudo science theory. Data wasn't born normally, but was created in steps, B4, Lore and then him.

You cannot recapture his total 'essence' from a single neuron, which is require to hold possible a 'trillion gigabytes' of data, his entire history on his life.

His daughter's body was in storage and of course part of him was within her. It is like passing one's genes via the natural process done by humans.

But to say, oh yeah...we can get it back from a single what?! How the frak, from a imamate piece of tech that needs power to work to carry the instructions to the others pieces of tech to make his body, mind to function.

That is* lazy writing*, it is like seeking the HOLY GRAIL, a fable tale.

I want to enjoy the show, long overdue for Trek stuff. But don't insult us with lame thinking. We are not stupid.


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## cbwjm

Finally watched this last night (kept quickly browsing past this thread) and I loved it. I really loved the addition if Data's daughters and am wondering how it is going to develop. 

It was epic when they zoomed out on the Borg cube at the end of the episode.

The telling off Picard gave the reporter was brilliant. Granted, the only reason I know about Dunkirk was because I watched the movie.

This was a great start to the series, I like being excited about star trek again and I'm really looking forward to the next episode.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

The dream in the beginning seems also very symbolic, both foreshadowing things that are going to happen, and "backshadowing" what happened in the past (and is explained to us later).

Picard is acting angry or surprised that Data's bet would mean betting everything that Picard has - Picard bet everything he had to be able to save the Romulans... And he lost it all.



> "I don't want the game to end"



And of course, this wonderful, hard-hitting emotional line... it shows his particular sentimentality about Data - but it also symbolizes that he isn't really finished with Starfleet or at least what it represented - the game - yet. He still wants to go on another adventure, and towards the end of the episode, he acts on it.

His description of Data's "tell" represents his familiarity with android lifeforms, kinda symbolizing how he is so quick to get behind Dajh's true nature. Interesting to note: Data himself was able to pick up some oddities about Juliana Tainer (Soong's wife's Android replacement, for those that forgot) by visual cues like blinking patterns or the way she played her instrument. Whether Picard's ability in the dream is more representing a metaphor for his detective work regarding Dajh's origin, or literally means he can subconsciously or consciously pick up clues of Android-typical behavior is probably anybody's guess.

I am not sure if the 5 Queens are going to symbolize something upcoming - it could stand for the Borg Queen (and thus just the Borg), it could stand for Q, it could stand for 5 important women (In this episode, if we want to look for 5 significant women, we could take Dajh, her sister, Allison Pill's character, his female Romulan housekeeper and the reporter, but that might be a stretch. It could reference the rest of the season, Seven of Nine or Deanna Troi could be part of it...),or a wild combination of thereof - or really just a cute reference to the past. Maybe someone else has an idea?


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## shawnhcorey

During the opening shots of the Ent-D, there is a blue disc just to the left of the bridge. Is that a reflection of something because the Ent-D is being viewed thru a window? r is it something else?


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## MarkB

shawnhcorey said:


> During the opening shots of the Ent-D, there is a blue disc just to the left of the bridge. Is that a reflection of something because the Ent-D is being viewed thru a window? r is it something else?



Just lens flare as far as I can see.


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## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> Just* lens flare *as far as I can see.




Yupe...A JJA special


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## Hussar

Was noodling around youtube this morning and the "Easter Egg" videos are already out and multiplying like tribbles.   Wow, folks are HUNGRY for this.


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## Hussar

Although, I do have to ask, why does every Trek series take Star Fleet and make it the bad guy?  We saw it back in TNG, DS9, and STiscovery.  For a "utopian vision" of the future, Star Fleet sure likes to go back on its principles.


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## Morrus

Hussar said:


> Although, I do have to ask, why does every Trek series take Star Fleet and make it the bad guy?  We saw it back in TNG, DS9, and STiscovery.  For a "utopian vision" of the future, Star Fleet sure likes to go back on its principles.



I don’t think they’ve made it the bad guy. It’s still Starfleet. Just Picard and Starfleet disagreed about something 20 years back.


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## MarkB

Morrus said:


> I don’t think they’ve made it the bad guy. It’s still Starfleet. Just Picard and Starfleet disagreed about something 20 years back.



Indeed - and that's nothing new. Kirk was disagreeing with Starfleet frequently back in the original series, and Picard was doing so as recently as Star Trek Insurrection.

I'd consider it to be an abiding theme across all Trek series that, while principles may be established by a government, it is up to individuals to uphold them.


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## Janx

We loved it.

How come Picard never asked about the Daystrom Institute's new employee, Dahj?  I mean yes, they talked about Picard meeting her, but when he's given resistance to the idea of a synthetic, it's like "you tell me, you hired her." would have made a great line.

Which that line of discussion might have led to Maddox, once they backtracked Dahj to her home, parents, etc.


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## MarkB

Janx said:


> We loved it.
> 
> How come Picard never asked about the Daystrom Institute's new employee, Dahj?  I mean yes, they talked about Picard meeting her, but when he's given resistance to the idea of a synthetic, it's like "you tell me, you hired her." would have made a great line.
> 
> Which that line of discussion might have led to Maddox, once they backtracked Dahj to her home, parents, etc.



Hopefully they may pick up on that next week. We did leave off the episode with Picard still at the Daystrom Institute.


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## Ryujin

Janx said:


> We loved it.
> 
> How come Picard never asked about the Daystrom Institute's new employee, Dahj?  I mean yes, they talked about Picard meeting her, but when he's given resistance to the idea of a synthetic, it's like "you tell me, you hired her." would have made a great line.
> 
> Which that line of discussion might have led to Maddox, once they backtracked Dahj to her home, parents, etc.




I took it as Picard not wanting to lay all of his cards on the table, because at this point he has no idea who to trust.


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## Janx

So what do we know so far?

Data is dead, his appearance is a dream sequence
Nobody ever says Data's daughter's name, Lal.
the Daystrom Institute still exists
Synthetics became more common place at some point
Synthetics went bad and burned Mars
Synthetics were banned, yet at least one works in StarFleet Archives
Picard has a storage unit to keep his old stuff
He kept the Captain Picard Day sign
Maddox is in hiding, probably made the new Lal-alikes
Dahj-Mom hasn't called the other daughter out of concern
Romulans work for Picard and his vineyard
Romulans have a thriving Scrap business
The Federation turned its back on Romulan Refugees
Some neighborghoods on Earth aren't as smurfy as others
Picard isn't used to running up stairs


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## Anoth

Romulans integrating in Star fleet made no sense to me. They were a cast empire with hundred of world or more to move to. They would have stayed in their own empire and relocated to another planet in their empire. Other than that I liked it.


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## Raunalyn

Janx said:


> Synthetics were banned, yet at least one works in StarFleet Archives




I think that was a hologram, but I may have to rewatch the episode to confirm.


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## Raunalyn

Anoth said:


> Romulans integrating in Star fleet made no sense to me. They were a cast empire with hundred of world or more to move to. They would have stayed in their own empire and relocated to another planet in their empire. Other than that I liked it.




I saw it as a group of Romulans "defected" to the Federation. Perhaps some of them were grateful for the assistance in evacuating Romulus when the sun went supernova. That being said, I think there is a group of Romulans that are trying to undermine this integration (at least, that was how I interpreted the Romulan assassins trying to kill Dahj).


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## shawnhcorey

Raunalyn said:


> (at least, that was how I interpreted the Romulan assassins trying to kill Dahj).




I thought they were trying to capture her. It seems they had some questions.


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## Ryujin

Janx said:


> So what do we know so far?
> 
> Data is dead, his appearance is a dream sequence
> Nobody ever says Data's daughter's name, Lal.
> the Daystrom Institute still exists
> Synthetics became more common place at some point
> Synthetics went bad and burned Mars
> Synthetics were banned, yet at least one works in StarFleet Archives
> Picard has a storage unit to keep his old stuff
> He kept the Captain Picard Day sign
> Maddox is in hiding, probably made the new Lal-alikes
> Dahj-Mom hasn't called the other daughter out of concern
> Romulans work for Picard and his vineyard
> Romulans have a thriving Scrap business
> The Federation turned its back on Romulan Refugees
> Some neighborghoods on Earth aren't as smurfy as others
> Picard isn't used to running up stairs




Also, that the synthetics weren't on-par with Soong leval androids. I suspect that will figure into why they 'rebelled.'


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## Janx

Ryujin said:


> Also, that the synthetics weren't on-par with Soong leval androids. I suspect that will figure into why they 'rebelled.'



I imagine they all saw the Doctor's holoplay.  Humanity's got a lot to learn about Artificial Rights.


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## MarkB

Ryujin said:


> Also, that the synthetics weren't on-par with Soong leval androids. I suspect that will figure into why they 'rebelled.'



I'm betting that "went rogue" will turn out to actually be "were re-programmed / ordered by someone with an agenda against letting the Federation save Romulans."

I'm tempted to lay the blame with Dr Maddox, given that (a) they were built in his lab, (b) he's pulled a disappearing act, and (c) he's the most likely candidate to be Dahj's creator, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.


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## Janx

MarkB said:


> I'm betting that "went rogue" will turn out to actually be "were re-programmed / ordered by someone with an agenda against letting the Federation save Romulans."
> 
> I'm tempted to lay the blame with Dr Maddox, given that (a) they were built in his lab, (b) he's pulled a disappearing act, and (c) he's the most likely candidate to be Dahj's creator, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.




I'd be against that bet.  I expect Maddox to be obsessed with perfecting synthetic life and that's pretty much it.  He vanished because of the Mars incident and the ban against his work.  He's a victim of politics, not the cause.  Whoever used the synthetics, did so  as a means to an end. Perhaps to slow down Federation ship-building, and to remove a chunk of workforce (synthetics).

That would fit a Romulan objective, to strengthen their position in the galaxy.  Especially important as so many Romulans are learning to be nice as they integrate into their rescuers society.  Setting up an us vs. them (as with the interviewer) might be valuable to light a fire under Romulans who've become too trusting.

---
Now one thing that puzzles me, for both humans and Romulans.  In the 24th century, they are very distributed to other worlds.  Why is losing Romulus or Mars such a setback?  Sure, it's terrible.  But life goes on. You can evacuate people to other star systems within you own territory. You can build another shipyard. Is this a flaw in the writers' mindset or am I missing something that 18 years couldn't have adapted to.


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## shawnhcorey

Janx said:


> But life goes on. You can evacuate people to other star systems within you own territory. You can build another shipyard. Is this a flaw in the writers' mindset or am I missing something that 18 years couldn't have adapted to.




It's called fiscal budget. The universe is full of politicians that believe nothing will go wrong, so why budget for them? Snipping funds from one part of the budget to pay for their elaborate plans continues to happen even in the face of bad outcomes.


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## MarkB

Janx said:


> Now one thing that puzzles me, for both humans and Romulans.  In the 24th century, they are very distributed to other worlds.  Why is losing Romulus or Mars such a setback?  Sure, it's terrible.  But life goes on. You can evacuate people to other star systems within you own territory. You can build another shipyard. Is this a flaw in the writers' mindset or am I missing something that 18 years couldn't have adapted to.



Well, the Romulan empire was extremely centralised, and I'm not sure it was honestly all that big - the Neutral Zone with the Federation kept them constrained on one side, and they had a similar border with the Klingon empire. Cutting the heart out of that regime would have not only been a huge logistical blow, it would likely also have gutted both their military and civilian chain of command, quite possibly to the extent of there no longer being a singular Romulan political entity.

I don't get the impression that the Federation was as badly affected, but the decades preceding the attack on Mars had been trying times for them. The Dominion War took a huge toll on the entire Alpha Quadrant, and Starfleet in particular, and it's likely that they were nowhere near building back up to full strength in either vessels or personnel by the time of the supernova twelve years later. The loss of their primary shipyard, along with the huge loss of life, could easily have been felt as a crushing blow, leaving Starfleet feeling vulnerable and overextended.


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## Beleriphon

Raunalyn said:


> I saw it as a group of Romulans "defected" to the Federation. Perhaps some of them were grateful for the assistance in evacuating Romulus when the sun went supernova. That being said, I think there is a group of Romulans that are trying to undermine this integration (at least, that was how I interpreted the Romulan assassins trying to kill Dahj).






Janx said:


> I'd be against that bet.  I expect Maddox to be obsessed with perfecting synthetic life and that's pretty much it.  He vanished because of the Mars incident and the ban against his work.  He's a victim of politics, not the cause.  Whoever used the synthetics, did so  as a means to an end. Perhaps to slow down Federation ship-building, and to remove a chunk of workforce (synthetics).
> 
> That would fit a Romulan objective, to strengthen their position in the galaxy.  Especially important as so many Romulans are learning to be nice as they integrate into their rescuers society.  Setting up an us vs. them (as with the interviewer) might be valuable to light a fire under Romulans who've become too trusting.
> 
> ---
> Now one thing that puzzles me, for both humans and Romulans.  In the 24th century, they are very distributed to other worlds.  Why is losing Romulus or Mars such a setback?  Sure, it's terrible.  But life goes on. You can evacuate people to other star systems within you own territory. You can build another shipyard. Is this a flaw in the writers' mindset or am I missing something that 18 years couldn't have adapted to.






MarkB said:


> Well, the Romulan empire was extremely centralised, and I'm not sure it was honestly all that big - the Neutral Zone with the Federation kept them constrained on one side, and they had a similar border with the Klingon empire. Cutting the heart out of that regime would have not only been a huge logistical blow, it would likely also have gutted both their military and civilian chain of command, quite possibly to the extent of there no longer being a singular Romulan political entity.
> 
> I don't get the impression that the Federation was as badly affected, but the decades preceding the attack on Mars had been trying times for them. The Dominion War took a huge toll on the entire Alpha Quadrant, and Starfleet in particular, and it's likely that they were nowhere near building back up to full strength in either vessels or personnel by the time of the supernova twelve years later. The loss of their primary shipyard, along with the huge loss of life, could easily have been felt as a crushing blow, leaving Starfleet feeling vulnerable and overextended.




I think I can answer these, given that I've been reading the Picard comics.

Really short version, the Romulan super nova did more than destroy Romulus and Remus, it did something to the entire sector of space the Romulans had colonized and basically made it uninhabitable. The two Romulans we meet at the vineyard are two that helped Admiral Picard during the evacuation of Romulan colonies. They're also former Tal'Shiar, but from what I can tell completely loyal to Picard given that he rescues them from certain execution if they return to the Empire (they're in love, Tal'Shiar apparently doesn't like that).

As for androids, Bruce Maddox (the officer than wants to declare Data property) may have met a Romulan woman and had children, since the young Romulan fellow at the end of episode introduces himself as Maddox, and is clearly not old enough to be Bruce Maddox who would have been in is 40s during the TNG original run.


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## MarkB

Beleriphon said:


> I think I can answer these, given that I've been reading the Picard comics.
> 
> Really short version, the Romulan super nova did more than destroy Romulus and Remus, it did something to the entire sector of space the Romulans had colonized and basically made it uninhabitable.



That would make sense. A supernova creates a huge wave of radiation, which would sweep through nearby systems over the subsequent decades - and this one was, by all accounts, a doozy. Spock in the Kelvinverse Star Trek describes it as having "threatened the galaxy" if it were not contained.



> The two Romulans we meet at the vineyard are two that helped Admiral Picard during the evacuation of Romulan colonies.



I haven't read the comic, but I'd have surmised that it was something of that nature simply from their attitude and relationship with Picard as seen in this opening episode.



> As for androids, Bruce Maddox (the officer than wants to declare Data property) may have met a Romulan woman and had children, since the young Romulan fellow at the end of episode introduces himself as Maddox, and is clearly not old enough to be Bruce Maddox who would have been in is 40s during the TNG original run.



Actually, he introduces himself as Narek. He is very quick to focus on Soji's necklace, though.


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## Beleriphon

MarkB said:


> That would make sense. A supernova creates a huge wave of radiation, which would sweep through nearby systems over the subsequent decades - and this one was, by all accounts, a doozy. Spock in the Kelvinverse Star Trek describes it as having "threatened the galaxy" if it were not contained.




The first comic is Picard's mission to a system near by Romulus to evacuate it, where he meets the two in _Star Trek: Picard_. From what I can tell in the comics Picard was largely in charge of the evacuation efforts, which as we can see ultimately didn't go that well.



> I haven't read the comic, but I'd have surmised that it was something of that nature simply from their attitude and relationship with Picard as seen in this opening episode.




I'm hoping for some real insight in to Romulan politics. I get the distinct impression that there is something going on that in the Roluman factions that don't agree with how things are being done. Also, it looks like there's a relatively large number of Romulan refugees in Federation space, so I suspect we'll be getting some Romulan terrorist subplots or something crazy going on.



> Actually, he introduces himself as Narek. He is very quick to focus on Soji's necklace, though.




Hmmm, I swore I heard Maddox. Maybe it was the beard and floppy haircut.

On that note, I'm personally suspecting that B4 is going to get reconstructed and Data will eventually come back to save the day. Metaphorically or otherwise.


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## shawnhcorey

A supernova would make life in the nearby systems impossible but it would be years for the radiation to get there. Their evaluation would have years of planning.


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## MarkB

shawnhcorey said:


> A supernova would make life in the nearby systems impossible but it would be years for the radiation to get there. Their evaluation would have years of planning.



In our universe that's certainly the case. In Trek it might get more complicated, if some of that energy breaks through into warp speeds or subspace and can thus propagate faster than light.


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## Janx

Thanks for the additional info.  I still don't buy Maddox as the Mars mastermind.

He was more of controlling boyfriend lusting over Data, and I hope in the 24th century, he got counseling and learned healthier relationship skills. in the end, he really wanted to create cybernetic life.

That said, who authorized chopping up B4?  He might have been the less-able of Soong offspring, but was chopping him up appropriate?


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## Rabulias

Janx said:


> Dahj-Mom hasn't called the other daughter out of concern




I am wondering if "Mom" was just a construct in Dahj's head. It would explain how she knew about Picard.

Even so, a better issue to raise about Soji is why did _Dahj_ not try to warn her sister? Or mention Soji when Picard is telling her she's a synthetic? Either "I can't be a synthetic - I have a twin sister!" or "If I'm a synthetic then my twin sister must be one too!" Or maybe Dahj did not know about Soji?


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## cbwjm

Rabulias said:


> I am wondering if "Mom" was just a construct in Dahj's head. It would explain how she knew about Picard.
> 
> Even so, a better issue to raise about Soji is why did _Dahj_ not try to warn her sister? Or mention Soji when Picard is telling her she's a synthetic? Either "I can't be a synthetic - I have a twin sister!" or "If I'm a synthetic then my twin sister must be one too!" Or maybe Dahj did not know about Soji?



I did think that was a little weird because Soji knew she had a twin. Maybe Dahj was still a little averse to letting Picard know everything about her.

I wonder if the romulans that attacked Dahj are wanting to know the secrets of synthetics to rebuild the romulan race.


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## MarkB

Janx said:


> That said, who authorized chopping up B4?  He might have been the less-able of Soong offspring, but was chopping him up appropriate?



Bear in mind that all synthetics were banned in the wake of the Mars incident. Disassembly was probably the least bad option for B4 at that point.


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## Hussar

Y'know, that's a point.  In Trek, Data was granted full citizenship.  That was where we first met Maddox in that episode.  Would the other synthetics not also be granted full citizenship?  Which means they would be considered "alive" and "people".  IOW, not subject to being disassembled.


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## Morrus

Hussar said:


> Y'know, that's a point.  In Trek, Data was granted full citizenship.  That was where we first met Maddox in that episode.  Would the other synthetics not also be granted full citizenship?  Which means they would be considered "alive" and "people".  IOW, not subject to being disassembled.



What can be given can be taken away.


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## Hussar

Morrus said:


> What can be given can be taken away.



Again, this paints the Federation in a very, very sinister light.  If they can revoke something like someone's "alive" status, that is a horrible precedent.  We're talking straight up Nazi playbook here.  Data's status as a lifeform wasn't really something that could be revoked.


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## Morrus

Hussar said:


> Again, this paints the Federation in a very, very sinister light.  If they can revoke something like someone's "alive" status, that is a horrible precedent.  We're talking straight up Nazi playbook here.  Data's status as a lifeform wasn't really something that could be revoked.



I didn't say it was nice, just that it was possible. I mean, what's your alternative explanation for what happened? Murdering them _without _revoking citizenship doesn't make it better.


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## MarkB

Hussar said:


> Y'know, that's a point.  In Trek, Data was granted full citizenship.  That was where we first met Maddox in that episode.  Would the other synthetics not also be granted full citizenship?  Which means they would be considered "alive" and "people".  IOW, not subject to being disassembled.



One of the episode's plot points is that Data was the only example of a truly sentient android. Perhaps the others didn't meet the requirements - not even B4


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## Zardnaar

Laws can be changed and in any event Data wouldn't really count in terms of human rights.

 Citizenship in the modern era can also be revoked for a variety of reasons.


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## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> One of the episode's plot points is that Data was the only example of a truly sentient android. Perhaps the others didn't meet the requirements - not even B4




Agreed on that. They took specific pains to state that those Synthetics weren't up to the Soong Brothers' standard.


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## shawnhcorey

Just to change the subject, according to the comics, Laris and Zhaban, the two Romulans living with Picard, were former Tal Shiar. That means they weren't his servants but his self-appointed bodyguards.


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## Morrus

Man, I hate that you have to read some comics to understand what's going on in the TV show.


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## shawnhcorey

Morrus said:


> Man, I hate that you have to read some comics to understand what's going on in the TV show.




I haven't read the comics. I have read a lots of spoilers.  But Laris and Zhaban being Tal Shiar doesn't distract from the show.


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## MarkB

We're only one episode in. I think it's a little early to start accusing the show of neglecting to cover characters' backstories.


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## Janx

MarkB said:


> We're only one episode in. I think it's a little early to start accusing the show of neglecting to cover characters' backstories.



Agreed.  Which is why I listed the "facts" as we know them.  There's enough to chew on to make guesses about the future (like whether Maddox is the Mars bad guy).


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## shawnhcorey

MarkB said:


> We're only one episode in. I think it's a little early to start accusing the show of neglecting to cover characters' backstories.




Such drama. Nobody is accusing. I thought it would be interesting to think about Laris and Zhaban as more than simple servants. But if you don't want to speculate here, I'll start another thread.


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## MarkB

shawnhcorey said:


> Such drama. Nobody is accusing. I thought it would be interesting to think about Laris and Zhaban as more than simple servants. But if you don't want to speculate here, I'll start another thread.



Sorry, I neglected to include a quote. I was responding to Morrus's post, not yours.


----------



## Mallus

Janx said:


> I still don't buy Maddox as the Mars mastermind.



Me neither. Maddox, the guy who tried to vivisect Data, being the person who eventually realizes Data's dream of creating a daughter (or two) is poetic. Making him a deliberate villain would be an awful, nonsensical choice.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Mallus said:


> Me neither. Maddox, the guy who tried to vivisect Data, being the person who eventually realizes Data's dream of creating a daughter (or two) is poetic. Making him a deliberate villain would be an awful, nonsensical choice.




It's more likely that Maddox and Data became allies over time and Maddox assisted in the creation of Data's daughters, or at least observed. Now, why Data never mentioned working on them to Picard is another question... I mean. the only time he could have done it would have been in his spare time while still under Picard's command, right?


----------



## Raunalyn

FitzTheRuke said:


> It's more likely that Maddox and Data became allies over time and Maddox assisted in the creation of Data's daughters, or at least observed. Now, why Data never mentioned working on them to Picard is another question... I mean. the only time he could have done it would have been in his spare time while still under Picard's command, right?




The only problem I had with the revelation of the two Daughters was how contrived it felt. There weren't any blood tests, no brain scans, etc. to confirm that they were actually artificial.

Or maybe I missed it.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Raunalyn said:


> The only problem I had with the revelation of the two Daughters was how contrived it felt. There weren't any blood tests, no brain scans, etc. to confirm that they were actually artificial.
> 
> Or maybe I missed it.




He hadn't confirmed his conclusion, no. He never had the chance, though he had further evidence by her super-jump before getting blown up.  Picard's just going with his gut at the moment. He'll have to find the twin to learn more, though.


----------



## Morrus

I didn't quite get why there had to be two of them? Didn't she say something about there were always two of them made or something?


----------



## Mallus

FitzTheRuke said:


> He hadn't confirmed his conclusion, no. He never had the chance, though he had further evidence by her super-jump before getting blown up.  Picard's just going with his gut at the moment. He'll have to find the twin to learn more, though.



Right. Picard has her story, the resemblance to Data's painting, and being eyewitness to both the Romulan black-ops squad and Dahj's superhuman response to it. 

The other thing about Picard 'going with his gut', the episode makes it clear Picard is being driven by his desire for there to be something of his old friend still alive in Dahj. He wants that to be true.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> I didn't quite get why there had to be two of them? Didn't she say something about there were always two of them made or something?



The technique creates a "matching pair". Probably purely an arbitrary plot device.


----------



## Mallus

Morrus said:


> I didn't quite get why there had to be two of them? Didn't she say something about there were always two of them made or something?



Dr. Jurati states the androids their lab made were made in pairs. No explanation of the process is given. I took it to be a call-back to Data having a twin brother Lore.


----------



## Morrus

MarkB said:


> The technique creates a "matching pair". Probably purely an arbitrary plot device.



A matching pair of two entire humanoid androids?


----------



## tomBitonti

Morrus said:


> A matching pair of two entire humanoid androids?




I took that to mean that the process of creating their minds created two at a time.  I presume that their physical structure / bodies are the same just for engineering simplicity.  Whether android bodies can be changed, or changed easily, doesn't seem to be answered.  Data could repair damage.  But, he had extensive capabilities (secondary processors and such) in his body, such that his body seemed to be an integrated system and perhaps difficult to change.

Thx!
TomB


----------



## Janx

FitzTheRuke said:


> It's more likely that Maddox and Data became allies over time and Maddox assisted in the creation of Data's daughters, or at least observed. Now, why Data never mentioned working on them to Picard is another question... I mean. the only time he could have done it would have been in his spare time while still under Picard's command, right?



I would wager that it's not quite like that. But yes, they probably ended as friends, before his death.  I'm sure he left on good terms with Data and over the years they talked.  Maybe even Data bequeathed his remains. 

Maddox struggled for years to recreate Data, and failed.  Then Data dies.  Other breakthrus in organic-like synthetics arise, then the ban.  Maddox is sticking to his life-long quest.  But the last 18 years has been Maddox alone.  We don't even know how old Dhaj is.  is she 18+ years old or just last year?

I would bet that he perfected Dahj after the synthetics ban.  He went into hiding so he could continue that research.


----------



## Anoth

Morrus said:


> I didn't quite get why there had to be two of them? Didn't she say something about there were always two of them made or something?



If they have two of them they can blow up one and still have a story. They said they always made two. But never said why.


----------



## MarkB

tomBitonti said:


> I took that to mean that the process of creating their minds created two at a time.  I presume that their physical structure / bodies are the same just for engineering simplicity.  Whether android bodies can be changed, or changed easily, doesn't seem to be answered.  Data could repair damage.  But, he had extensive capabilities (secondary processors and such) in his body, such that his body seemed to be an integrated system and perhaps difficult to change.
> 
> Thx!
> TomB



In this case the bodies aren't simply engineered. Dahj could sustain physical injuries and responded to conventional healing methods, and Picard, in his discussions with Dr Jurati, seems certain that she was a fully organic being with a positronic brain. The technique of creating her is called "fractal neuronic cloning."

If that technique involves creating both a positronic neural network and an organic humanoid body, the two would likely have to be intricately linked - positronic neural tissue growing in place of conventional nerve cells not only within the brain but the entire nervous system, integrating with a body of more conventional human-like physiology, probably possessing actual DNA. If it results in two identical brains, it would certainly be a lot easier to make the bodies identical too.


----------



## Mallus

My main questions at this stage are...

... is Dahj really dead? Looks bad, but she could have been beamed away.

... if Dahj is dead, is she somehow still 'alive' in her sister Soji? I mean, if you're going to make twins using 'fractal neuronic cloning', why not quantum-entangle them? (my tolerance for Star Trek science has reached tolerance limits)


----------



## MarkB

Mallus said:


> My main questions at this stage are...
> 
> ... is Dahj really dead? Looks bad, but she could have been beamed away.



The first time I watched the episode I thought the same, but on a second viewing it really does look like much of her head and torso burns away in that last moment. If anything was salvaged it couldn't have been much more than her brain - unless what we and Picard saw was a deliberately-engineered holographic illusion.



> ... if Dahj is dead, is she somehow still 'alive' in her sister Soji? I mean, if you're going to make twins using 'fractal neuronic cloning', why not quantum-entangle them? (my tolerance for Star Trek science has reached tolerance limits)



That's a possibility. Another lies in the technique used to create her in the first place - if Data's entire consciousness could be extrapolated from only a single one of his neurons, then presumably the same holds true for Dahj.


----------



## Anoth

One would think synthetic beings would be banned under the eugenics laws that were passed after the wars with Kahn that caused it to be banned in the first place.  It would make sense in the world of Star Trek to not allow the engineering of a super Race.


----------



## Hussar

Morrus said:


> I didn't say it was nice, just that it was possible. I mean, what's your alternative explanation for what happened? Murdering them _without _revoking citizenship doesn't make it better.




Yeah, I think I'll side with the "they didn't pass the Soong test".  Otherwise, this is one NASTY plot hole.  I'd believe a lot of things about the Federation, but, wholesale, public genocide seems a bit much.



Zardnaar said:


> Laws can be changed and in any event Data wouldn't really count in terms of human rights.
> 
> Citizenship in the modern era can also be revoked for a variety of reasons.




This isn't citizenship.  It was determined, in a Federation court, that Data was a lifeform.  This isn't a law and it cannot be revoked.  And, again, I'm not really ready to believe that the writers would be that blatant about making the Federation into genocidal mass murderers.  Maybe I'm wrong, but, this would be a HUGE right turn for the Federation if I am.  Prime Directive violation and Nazi level evil.  

Now, maybe the "Soogn Test" isn't quite as... good as it could be and these synthetics were branded as non-sentient when they should not have been.  Or, there is a conspiracy to doctor the tests in order to destroy the synthetics.  But, I have a serious problem with the notion that the Federation would go back on its own principles to that degree, publicly and in full view of everyone and commit widespread genocide.  

Was there any evidence in the show that the 3000 synthetics on Mars were the only synthetics in the Federation?  Seems a bit weird if ALL the synthetics suddenly revolted, gathered in one location, and all got rounded up.


----------



## Morrus

Hussar said:


> This isn't a law and it cannot be revoked.




Do you have a cite for that? I’m no expert in UFP law, but that‘s a strong factual declaration.


----------



## Beleriphon

Morrus said:


> Do you have a cite for that? I’m no expert in UFP law, but that‘s a strong factual declaration.




It was a Starfleet court process, which is stupid because its like using a Royal Navy courts martial to determine if a guy that gets nicked for petty theft in Birmingham is even a person.

Realistically, since we know so little of actual Federation law and if its a common law system of courts, or something more like civil law process, a question of is a character even a person. I really think in universe this is the kind of thing that would kicked up the chain until some UFP Supreme Court process gets used. But, since we want to resolve everything in a single 40 minute TV episode, instead of Data still having his rights decided 30 years later Picard is now a lawyer, and so is Riker. Because apparently a degree in archaeology makes on a competent attorney in the Federation.


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> This isn't citizenship.  It was determined, in a Federation court, that Data was a lifeform.  This isn't a law and it cannot be revoked.



I re-watched _The Measure of a Man_ today, because I was interested in seeing what Dr Maddox was like. The court's ruling was, simply, that Data was a machine, but he was not property and therefore couldn't be coerced into going along with a dangerous procedure. The precedent established was very limited, and could potentially be overruled by a higher court.

Star Trek has always been all over the map in regard to such things. In the same episode they mention that, for instance, the Enterprise's computer could not be expected to refuse to undergo a refit - and yet that thing is so massively sophisticated that it can spontaneously create fully-sentient subroutines of itself as a result of a poorly-worded set of commands (see holodeck-Moriarty in _Ship in a Bottle_). Heck, some programmers seem to straight-up design holodeck characters to have the potential to develop true sentience, like virtual lounge singer Vic in Star Trek DS9.

Generally, the characters seem to have a huge blind spot when it comes to such generalised computer systems - they neither feel threatened by them, nor treat them as deserving of any particular rights. It's only when the intelligence comes bottled in a neat little humanoid package that they see them as potential equals, or rivals.


----------



## Beleriphon

MarkB said:


> Generally, the characters seem to have a huge blind spot when it comes to such generalised computer systems - they neither feel threatened by them, nor treat them as deserving of any particular rights. It's only when the intelligence comes bottled in a neat little humanoid package that they see them as potential equals, or rivals.




Like the Doctor in Voyager? Who doesn't even exist as a physical entity and is only a computer program with an interface that uses holodeck technology to present a "person" to interact with as a convenience to the crew. I'm fairly certain that the EMP was eventually used in mining facilities, and they developed personalities.


----------



## Hussar

Well, the exact wording from "The Measure of a Man" is that LT. Commander Data "has the freedom to choose".  

Which, right there, grants him personhood under the law.  Nothing that isn't a person can "choose".  As soon as they granted Data the right to choose, they made him a person under law.  

Sure, they don't come right out and state that he's a person.  But, then again, they don't really have to.

Which rolls us back around to this.  Did the Federation commit genocide?


----------



## Beleriphon

Hussar said:


> Which rolls us back around to this.  Did the Federation commit genocide?




Only if we're assuming Data being a person grants said status to every non-organic potentially sapient thing. I think the exocomps were determined to be a species right?


----------



## Raunalyn

Watched the 2nd episode last night. It's interesting that the Romulans are the ones who control the Borg Cube, but I've never known them to be very altruistic; their reasoning for "freeing" the Borg drones is obviously contrived. More than likely, they are using the technology they are finding to improve their own technology.

The opening scene with the Android revolt was pretty awesome. I am curious as to who or what took control of them.

I really like Picard's Romulan bodyguards, Laris in particular. I remember reading (a long time ago, mind you) about how the Federation and the Romulans were about to start a war, but the Romulans suddenly backed off for no apparent reason; there was some speculation that it was because they encountered the Borg. This could explain the reason for the Zhat Vash.

The Romulans infiltrating Star Fleet is interesting, if over-done.


----------



## MarkB

An enjoyable episode, though this one is definitely more about building the plotlines than advancing them.

We have confirmation of Laris and Zhaban's Tal Shiar origins (with no need to read the comics  ), with Laris getting to show off her forensic skills.

And apparently, the Romulans have their own version of Section 31, except that instead of protecting them from outside threats, the Zhat Vash protect them from robots. And apparently have done so for "thousands upon thousands of years." That's particularly intriguing, since the Romulans only split off from the Vulcans around 2000 years before the in-series present day. A slip of the tongue/script? Or do the Zhat Vash have their origins in ancient Vulcan culture?

So, clearly the Zhat Vash jump to the top of the suspect pool for the Mars attack - they have the motive, and they're zealous enough that they might not care that it costs Romulan lives. However, here's a scary alternative: What if there really is something out there that the Zhat Vash have good reason to fear, and that something is what overrode the androids?

Minor continuity note: The version of the NCC-1701 Enterprise briefly visible as a hologram in the Starfleet HQ lobby is the same one used in Star Trek Discovery.

According to the chalkboard on the Borg cube (or Borg Artifact Research Institute), it's been sixteen years since the last time someone got assimilated - and yet they still don't feel comfortable enough to stick an electronic counter up there. Kinda feel sorry for whoever has to keep re-writing it every day.

But it does at least give us a timeline. This facility has been around a long time - since well before the supernova, in fact. That makes sense if the backstory from the Abrams Trek movie is true, about Nero's mining ship having been retrofitted with Borg tech. There is a reference to the Romulans being its 'current' owners - could it have changed hands at some point?

The Romulans' reclamation of the former Borg appears to be motivated more towards the acquisition and selling of their cybernetic implants than any altruistic feeling towards the organic hosts. Their work here jars with the earlier reference to the Romulans not doing any research into cybernetics (which is highlighted - Narek says the place doesn't feel very Romulan), but then again, perhaps that's why they need so many outside experts.

Notably, Soji, like Dahj, has secured herself a place in the forefront of research into artificial beings. Deliberate? Or merely the result of innate aptitudes and interests?

The heirarchies between Narek, Rizzo and Commodore Oh seem interesting. Oh clearly considers herself in charge, but Rizzo seems to view her more as an ally of convenience than a superior. Perhaps Oh is higher ranking within the Tal Shiar, but Rizzo and Narek are deeper inside the Zhat Vash.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Hussar said:


> Well, the exact wording from "The Measure of a Man" is that LT. Commander Data "has the freedom to choose".
> 
> Which, right there, grants him personhood under the law.  Nothing that isn't a person can "choose".  As soon as they granted Data the right to choose, they made him a person under law.
> 
> Sure, they don't come right out and state that he's a person.  But, then again, they don't really have to.
> 
> Which rolls us back around to this.  Did the Federation commit genocide?




As memory serves, the judge did not give a full clarification on that verdict. And since this a Secret Hideout Production variant license, the liberties being taken are not following the true legacy on the previous history of Trek.

Using a 'slave labor' force...harkens to the darker history of the human race. And this showing in the* 24th century*, does not make any sense for this callous behavior.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> As memory serves, the judge did not give a full clarification on that verdict. And since this a Secret Hideout Production variant license, the liberties being taken are not following the true legacy on the previous history of Trek.
> 
> Using a 'slave labor' force...harkens to the darker history of the human race. And this showing in the* 24th century*, does not make any sense for this callous behavior.



This usage of artificial beings was precisely what Maddox was advocating, and what Picard and Guinan were concerned about, during Data's hearing. If it was considered a realistic possibility in that episode, it's not so surprising that it became an actuality a few decades later.

And given that these androids were not truly sentient - not conscious or self-aware as Data was - it's easy to see how they could have fooled themselves into thinking that it was a good idea. After all, the computers driving those bodies were little different from the ones driving their shuttles and comms systems and factories, and everything else in their lives. They should be enlightened enough not to treat them any differently just because they happened to be driving physical replicas of human beings, right? Right???


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hussar said:


> Well, the exact wording from "The Measure of a Man" is that LT. Commander Data "has the freedom to choose".
> 
> Which, right there, grants him personhood under the law.  Nothing that isn't a person can "choose".  As soon as they granted Data the right to choose, they made him a person under law.
> 
> Sure, they don't come right out and state that he's a person.  But, then again, they don't really have to.



No, the freedom to choose does not mean he is a person. That is what you interpret into it, but at the point of the verdict, it really only means that he can choose not to be dismantled. Everything beyond that would require additional rulings, court decisisons, and laws. And it only applies to him, not anyone else.



> Which rolls us back around to this.  Did the Federation commit genocide?



For that question however, it is completely irrelevant what the Federation law says. Because every nation can make laws saying that killing some minority is totally okay, and still others would consider killing that minority a genocide.

What matters more is: 
Did the Federation kill anyone that was sentient? 
1) And we don't know that really, because we don't know if the "synths" were truly sentient. The warning message in the second episode depicting the events of the Synth attack suggests they were "corrupted", which can be applied to sentients, but is more typically applied to computers. The behaviour of the Synths seemed less advanced than Data's behaviour, which could mean it's not truly sentient.
2) We also don't really know if they killed any Synths. In the scene of the attack, the Synth destroys itself at the end (or commited suicide, depending on your opinion on the first aspect). If so, then the Federation didn't killa nyone, they killed themselves. The only thing the Federation said was that they won't make more of them and no one else in the Federation could do it. Would that count as genocide? Do you have the moral and ethical duty to create new copies of artificial life once youc reated the first one?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I think from the second episode we can see that the Synths were not sentient, nor as advanced as Data, either by design (to get avoid the slave comparison) or because Maddox was no Soong. Either way, they were treated poorly (and may or may not have minded) and were probably hacked.

My wife points out that if someone hacks an important computer, society doesn't throw away all computers, so chances are, people were uncomfortable with the Synths in the first place (a character says they 'creep her out'). Some people naturally may not have been comfortable with how much it _looks_ like slavery, even if the Synths are declared non-sentient, and would have been against their use. Also the Synth-hating Romulans may have influenced that decision from their infiltration position.

Lots of reasons to ban them, but I don't see a genocide.


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> My wife points out that if someone hacks an important computer, society doesn't throw away all computers



True, but people don't think they were hacked, they think they went rogue. If a machine develops a deadly flaw, then all machines of the same class may well be recalled - and if it's an early model of a new concept, people may be put off from developing similar technologies.

EDIT: Point taken, though. The Zhat Vash may well have helped to orchestrate the degree to which they were rejected.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

MarkB said:


> True, but people don't think they were hacked, they think they went rogue. If a machine develops a deadly flaw, then all machines of the same class may well be recalled - and if it's an early model of a new concept, people may be put off from developing similar technologies.




Very true, but also funny in a way - I mean, who here thinks that they won't turn out to have been hacked? (Or at least stealthily and nefariously pre-programed)?

I assume that the federation was not able to find evidence... but it almost certainly still happened...


----------



## Dire Bare

MarkB said:


> The Romulans' reclamation of the former Borg appears to be motivated more towards the acquisition and selling of their cybernetic implants than any altruistic feeling towards the organic hosts. Their work here jars with the earlier reference to the Romulans not doing any research into cybernetics (which is highlighted - Narek says the place doesn't feel very Romulan), but then again, perhaps that's why they need so many outside experts.




I might be mis-remembering, but the Zhat Vash have a problem with artificial intelligence . . . . which is not the quite the same thing as cybernetics. Data, and presumably his "daughters", are artificial intelligences. So are the non-sentient synths that went rogue on Mars. Borg, however, are not artificial intelligences, but rather an assimilated hive-mind consciousness that relies heavily on cybernetics. Similar, but not quite the same.

And while the super secret Zhat Vash might be anti-AI . . . that doesn't mean Romulan society as a whole is, or that factions within Romulan society fear AI and/or cybernetics.

And, of course, what we know of the Zhat Vash is highly speculative, Laris and Zhaban are basically recounting myths and rumors to Picard . . . .


----------



## doctorbadwolf

MarkB said:


> Well, the Romulan empire was extremely centralised, and I'm not sure it was honestly all that big - the Neutral Zone with the Federation kept them constrained on one side, and they had a similar border with the Klingon empire. Cutting the heart out of that regime would have not only been a huge logistical blow, it would likely also have gutted both their military and civilian chain of command, quite possibly to the extent of there no longer being a singular Romulan political entity.
> 
> I don't get the impression that the Federation was as badly affected, but the decades preceding the attack on Mars had been trying times for them. The Dominion War took a huge toll on the entire Alpha Quadrant, and Starfleet in particular, and it's likely that they were nowhere near building back up to full strength in either vessels or personnel by the time of the supernova twelve years later. The loss of their primary shipyard, along with the huge loss of life, could easily have been felt as a crushing blow, leaving Starfleet feeling vulnerable and overextended.



That’s how the Romulans were handled in the Star Trek MMO, IIRC. There are basically the Romulans lead by the old hyper-nationalistic gestapo, and the Romulans who are from colony planets and rural areas that just want to live.


----------



## MarkB

Dire Bare said:


> I might be mis-remembering, but the Zhat Vash have a problem with artificial intelligence . . . . which is not the quite the same thing as cybernetics.



It's part of what Laris was saying when she described the Zhat Vash. "Have you never noticed the complete absence of artificial life in Romulan culture? We don't have androids or AIs, we don't study cybernetics."


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> It's part of what Laris was saying when she described the Zhat Vash. "Have you never noticed the complete absence of artificial life in Romulan culture? *We don't have androids or AIs, we don't study cybernetics*."




Hmmm...in TNG, the Romulan defector Admiral that saw DATA on Enterprise D, said that  there were Romulan Cybernetists 'would have _loved_ to get close to him'.

The Zhat Vash is solely a Secret Hideout creation--in a alternate universe.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Here is a Fan inspired of the Star Trek Borders.


Revised Star Trek Map


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> Hmmm...in TNG, the Romulan defector Admiral that saw DATA on Enterprise D, said that  there were Romulan Cybernetists 'would have _loved_ to get close to him'.
> 
> The Zhat Vash is solely a Secret Hideout creation--in alternate universe.



Yeah, I figured there'd have to be inconsistencies at some point - this is a pretty big change to suddenly graft onto Romulan culture at this late stage.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> Yeah, I figured there'd have to be inconsistencies at some point - this is a pretty big change to suddenly graft onto Romulan culture at this late stage.




Oh, there is a whole lot last minute changes to the Romulans...very water down changes.


----------



## Mallus

Truth Seeker said:


> The Zhat Vash is solely a Secret Hideout creation--in a alternate universe.



Heh... there'a only one Star Trek universe. The one where it's a beloved long-running sci-fi franchise. It's not like we know a lot about Romulan culture, anyway (are Diane Duane's novels canonical at this current point in time?). Grafting AI-phobia onto them doesn't contradict too much.

I mean, the Romulans are introduced as a pre-FTL spacefaring 'Star Empire' in "Balance of Terror". Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And gradually that went away until you had warp-capable warbirds in ENT.

That's the great thing about fictional universes, you can revise them to your heart's content! Note: also works with actual real-world history, if history is any guide.


----------



## MarkB

Mallus said:


> Heh... there'a only one Star Trek universe. The one where it's a beloved long-running sci-fi franchise. It's not like we know a lot about Romulan culture, anyway (are Diane Duane's novels canonical at this current point in time?). Grafting AI-phobia onto them doesn't contradict too much.
> 
> I mean, the Romulans are introduced as a pre-FTL spacefaring 'Star Empire' in "Balance of Terror". Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And gradually that went away until you had warp-capable warbirds in ENT.
> 
> That's the great thing about fictional universes, you can revise them to your heart's content! Note: also works with actual real-world history, if history is any guide.



Yep - if the Klingons can gain bumpy foreheads, the Romulans can gain AI-phobia. It's certainly not going to stop me enjoying this series.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> Yep - if the Klingons can gain bumpy foreheads, the Romulans can gain AI-phobia. It's certainly not going to stop me enjoying this series.




The only thing right now with the show, that is sorta hurting it, is the writing. Following by the production editing and production itself. Will love to enjoy, but these mishaps are growing.


----------



## shawnhcorey

Star Trek is known for changing canon. The one of the first shows had Sulu and his away team marooned on a planet because the transporter failed. If the Enterprise had shuttles, the away team could have been easily picked up. But shuttles came later in the show.


----------



## Truth Seeker

shawnhcorey said:


> Star Trek is known for changing canon. The one of the first shows had Sulu and his away team marooned on a planet because the transporter failed. If the Enterprise had shuttles, the away team could have been easily picked up. But shuttles came later in the show.




Well, giving the time of the show creation, maybe everything wasn't thought out yet.


----------



## shawnhcorey

Truth Seeker said:


> Well, giving the time of the show creation, maybe everything wasn't thought out yet.




Ditto.


----------



## Hussar

Truth Seeker said:


> The only thing right now with the show, that is sorta hurting it, is the writing. Following by the production editing and production itself. Will love to enjoy, but these mishaps are growing.




Mishaps?  What mishaps?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Hussar said:


> Mishaps?  What mishaps?




Cannot confirm directly, but some folks are saying that  some scenes are off, and there is a question of cramming stuff in _example--Picard's brain condition is terminal_ Like that should be put later in the season, instead we got it in Eps #2. It is the pacing, editing of scenes, nuances of the clothes to the period, scripts talk for characters not vetted properly. It is the small things that can bloom into bigger problems. For me, I just watching it for Picard only, guarded against the rest. And keeping it short....in description.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

So... anyone else here wonder, if it's just Dahj and Soji (and perhaps the Synths) that are made twins, or if they're suggesting that Data and Lore count as well. Then B4 would have had a twin too... (Also, does that mean that there was a B1 and a B2 as well, and Data was actually the SIXTH Soongian Android?)


----------



## Truth Seeker

FitzTheRuke said:


> So... anyone else here wonder, if it's just Dahj and Soji (and perhaps the Synths) that are made twins, or if they're suggesting that Data and Lore count as well. Then B4 would have had a twin too... (Also, does that mean that there was a B1 and a B2 as well, and Data was actually the SIXTH Soongian Android?)




B4 is dismantled and is a less superior model.
LORE is disassembled and was put away somewhere out there, in a unknown place.
DATA is totally destroyed
DATA's Daughter is dismantled, stored somewhere--had total cascade failure.

The creator Doctor Soong also created DATA's mother Juliana, his former deceased wife, with the condition placed in her, if she ever found out that she is artificial, she will immediately shut down. Status unknown. She was considered a superior model to the previous ones.

He never built twins, always singular.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Truth Seeker said:


> B4 is dismantled and is a less superior model.
> LORE is disassembled and was put away somewhere out there, in a unknown place.
> DATA is totally destroyed
> DATA's Daughter is dismantled, stored somewhere--had total cascade failure.
> 
> The creator Doctor Soong also created DATA's mother Juliana, his former deceased wife, with the condition placed in her, if she ever found out that she is artificial, she will immediately shut down. Status unknown. She was considered a superior model to the previous ones.
> 
> He never built twins, always singular.




I know that"s how the earlier story went. I was asking if anyone thought that they might retcon it - and what people thought of the idea. I mean, it's got it's inconsistencies (as most retcons do) but it's not impossible to retcon that Data and Lore are twins and B4 could have one too.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Morrus said:


> I didn't say it was nice, just that it was possible. I mean, what's your alternative explanation for what happened? Murdering them _without _revoking citizenship doesn't make it better.



A writing mistake.


----------



## Dire Bare

FitzTheRuke said:


> I know that"s how the earlier story went. I was asking if anyone thought that they might retcon it - and what people thought of the idea. I mean, it's got it's inconsistencies (as most retcons do) but it's not impossible to retcon that Data and Lore are twins and B4 could have one too.




Soong's process did not require twins. Data and Lore look identical, but aren't really twins, in the sense they were created at different times. And of course B-4, an inferior model created before Data and Lore, also looks identical to his two younger "brothers". Maddox studied Data to develop his own android process, but it is different than Soong's. Why does Maddox's process create twins? Perhaps we'll learn more . . .


----------



## Dire Bare

Truth Seeker said:


> Cannot confirm directly, but some folks are saying that  some scenes are off, and there is a question of cramming stuff in _example--Picard's brain condition is terminal_ Like that should be put later in the season, instead we got it in Eps #2. It is the pacing, editing of scenes, nuances of the clothes to the period, scripts talk for characters not vetted properly. It is the small things that can bloom into bigger problems. For me, I just watching it for Picard only, guarded against the rest. And keeping it short....in description.




These aren't "mishaps", they are choices. You might not care for them, but they aren't mistakes.

YMMV, but I don't have a problem with the writing, the opposite really, I think the writing is fantastic so far!


----------



## Truth Seeker

FitzTheRuke said:


> I know that"s how the earlier story went. I was asking if anyone thought that they might retcon it - and what people thought of the idea. I mean, it's got it's inconsistencies (as most retcons do) but it's not impossible to retcon that Data and Lore are twins and B4 could have one too.




Judging from the license issued to Bad Robot/Secret Hideout...they have access to tinker from the Nemesis film and the Kelvin Timeline _2009 movie._
They have already retconned that DATA transfer to B4 was a 99.99% loss, and the Countdown comic showing DATA was a captain of a ship has been scrubbed.

The other former mentioned personas were before 2009, therefore that is no for now, unless the license to use them is rented.


----------



## Dire Bare

MarkB said:


> It's part of what Laris was saying when she described the Zhat Vash. "Have you never noticed the complete absence of artificial life in Romulan culture? We don't have androids or AIs, we don't study cybernetics."




Thanks, you're paying closer attention than I am!!


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> These aren't "mishaps", they are choices. *You might not care for them*, but they aren't mistakes.
> 
> YMMV, but I don't have a problem with the writing, the opposite really, *I think the writing is fantastic so far!*




Actually I do care...but there is evidence growing that the 'writers' are not well verse in Trek Lore.

As for the writing...our opinions differ there, let's us agree to disagree on the consideration to how the writing is just meh to the fanstatic, yes?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> Soong's process did not require twins. Data and Lore look identical, but aren't really twins, in the sense they were created at different times. And of course B-4, an inferior model created before Data and Lore, also looks identical to his two younger "brothers". Maddox studied Data to develop his own android process, but it is different than Soong's. *Why does Maddox's process create twins? Perhaps we'll learn more* . . .




That is creative writing, a mystery box from Bad Robot/Secret Hideout.


----------



## Dire Bare

Truth Seeker said:


> Actually I do care...but there is evidence growing that the 'writers' are not well verse in Trek Lore.
> 
> As for the writing...our opinions differ there, let's us agree to disagree on the consideration to how the writing is just meh to the fanstatic, yes?




Sorry, not what I meant. I did not mean to say that you do not care *about* the show or the writing, but that you don't seem to care *for* the writing . . . in other words, you do not like it. And yes, we disagree, that's OK of course . . .

I'd love to see your "evidence" that the writers for "Picard" are not well-versed in Trek lore. If we stick to the TV shows and movies only (ignore the comics, novels, etc), we have a sprawling shared universe that is over 50 years old . . . . inconsistencies and minor ret-cons are inevitable, and have long been a part of Trek. The new show doesn't perfectly match up with everything that has come before, sure . . . but no Trek show or movie ever has.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> Sorry, not what I meant. I did not mean to say that you do not care *about* the show or the writing, but that you don't seem to care *for* the writing . . . in other words, you do not like it. And yes, we disagree, that's OK of course . . .
> 
> I'd love to see your "evidence" that the writers for "Picard" are not well-versed in Trek lore. If we stick to the TV shows and movies only (ignore the comics, novels, etc), we have a sprawling shared universe that is over 50 years old . . . . inconsistencies and minor ret-cons are inevitable, and have long been a part of Trek. *The new show doesn't perfectly match up with everything that has come before, sure . . . but no Trek show or movie ever has.*



On that we agree,

As for the evidence, it may not be in print that I know of, but there are other 'experts' who knows the Lore like wearing their favorite shirts, have been pointing out the issues. Me, I would like very much for the show to succeed, but if the flaws are not addressed, it will become very apparent on how this show is present.

And in truth, there is no excuse at all for this....there is over 50 years of history there. If there is nit and pick attitude, that will not end well. You can respect the canon, use it for guidelines while you make your new path, journeys and new stories _or slightly rehashed ones_ But to ignore it in total, invites disaster.

And the evidence for that, is already showing up in other beloved franchises of great age.

*Star Wars and Doctor Who.*

Peace


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> On that we agree,
> 
> As for the evidence, it may not be in print that I know of, but there are other 'experts' who knows the Lore like wearing their favorite shirts, have been pointing out the issues. Me, I would like very much for the show to succeed, but if the flaws are not addressed, it will become very apparent on how this show is present.
> 
> And in truth, there is no excuse at all for this....there is over 50 years of history there. If there is nit and pick attitude, that will not end well. You can respect the canon, use it for guidelines while you make your new path, journeys and new stories _or slightly rehashed ones_ But to ignore it in total, invites disaster.
> 
> And the evidence for that, is already showing up in other beloved franchises of great age.
> 
> *Star Wars and Doctor Who.*
> 
> Peace



What gives you the impression that they're ignoring it in total? So far they seem to have been building upon both major and minor elements from both the movies and TV series.


----------



## shawnhcorey

Dire Bare said:


> Soong's process did not require twins. Data and Lore look identical, but aren't really twins, in the sense they were created at different times. And of course B-4, an inferior model created before Data and Lore, also looks identical to his two younger "brothers".




Soong made B4, Lore, and Data in his own image. Not surprising they all look like him.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> What gives you the impression that they're ignoring it in total? So far they seem to have been building upon both major and minor elements from both the movies and TV series.




Okay, let's start with this...who is the show catering to?

Is for kids? No...

Is for the long time fans _trekkers_ Maybe...

Is for the casual viewer that don't know the full Lore of Trek? Yes.

They can emulate the feels of Trek, bring up fond memories for those who carry the franchise in their hearts for years upon years. Bu there has been a visual push to forego the nuances of this long legacy, that is very apparent. As I said before, I would like to see the show to be successful. But the one factor that help the show to be greater accepted.

You have to involve the Next Generation _pun not intended_, the young folks, the kids, and that is not there.

Behind a paywall, dropping curse words, if not seeking to have the show remembered for years to come, not having that great impression that would last in the minds of the many. What would be great about the show after its run, what would stand out and be talked about in the forums, person to person, etc., etc.

To pull a line that shows that there is a minority that does not care for long legacies and seek to tear them down, *"Let the Past die, kill it if you have to" *is a warning to the legacy bearers, that nothing is sacred anymore. I understand that franchises need to be 'refreshed' for today's current audiences, but the memory of those said franchises, are passed down by those who witness its beginnings, interact with it journey with purchases in the merchandising.

Right now, there is one or two vendor working with the show, the rest want nothing to do with it. They already have stated that the show premise is not recognizable to gain attention to sell stuff, to them. Without this extended avenue to gain traction, interest will wane.

Yes, I do look at this, with market value eyes on witnessing to how sustaining the longevity of this show will pan out. If the market is not biting. How will this show survive?

Ratings alone can't sustain it, it has to be massive multi level in merchandising, so the other effort is to sell to markets like to Amazon or NetFlick or in Canada for viewership. But will that be enough?

Rumor is that for 10 eps, price tag runs at $400 million dollars in total, originally suppose to be 13 eps, but condense down to 10. And for the emotional aspect of this, I am glad it is back, the Trek journey...but it should be reaching out to the younger crowd, the kids.

Right now...it is not doing that.

The past is the connective tissue for the present and the future going forward.

Kill it...

We become lost, without direction.

Take care.


----------



## MarkB

MarkB said:


> What gives you the impression that they're ignoring it in total? So far they seem to have been building upon both major and minor elements from both the movies and TV series.





Truth Seeker said:


> Okay, let's start with this...who is the show catering to?
> 
> Is for kids? No...
> 
> Is for the long time fans _trekkers_ Maybe...
> 
> Is for the casual viewer that don't know the full Lore of Trek? Yes.
> 
> They can emulate the feels of Trek, bring up fond memories for those who carry the franchise in their hearts for years upon years. Bu there has been a visual push to forego the nuances of this long legacy, that is very apparent. As I said before, I would like to see the show to be successful. But the one factor that help the show to be greater accepted.
> 
> You have to involve the Next Generation _pun not intended_, the young folks, the kids, and that is not there.
> 
> Behind a paywall, dropping curse words, if not seeking to have the show remembered for years to come, not having that great impression that would last in the minds of the many. What would be great about the show after its run, what would stand out and be talked about in the forums, person to person, etc., etc.
> 
> To pull a line that shows that there is a minority that does not care for long legacies and seek to tear them down, *"Let the Past die, kill it if you have to" *is a warning to the legacy bearers, that nothing is sacred anymore. I understand that franchises need to be 'refreshed' for today's current audiences, but the memory of those said franchises, are passed down by those who witness its beginnings, interact with it journey with purchases in the merchandising.
> 
> Right now, there is one or two vendor working with the show, the rest want nothing to do with it. They already have stated that the show premise is not recognizable to gain attention to sell stuff, to them. Without this extended avenue to gain traction, interest will wane.
> 
> Yes, I do look at this, with market value eyes on witnessing to how sustaining the longevity of this show will pan out. If the market is not biting. How will this show survive?
> 
> Ratings alone can't sustain it, it has to be massive multi level in merchandising, so the other effort is to sell to markets like to Amazon or NetFlick or in Canada for viewership. But will that be enough?
> 
> Rumor is that for 10 eps, price tag runs at $400 million dollars in total, originally suppose to be 13 eps, but condense down to 10. And for the emotional aspect of this, I am glad it is back, the Trek journey...but it should be reaching out to the younger crowd, the kids.
> 
> Right now...it is not doing that.
> 
> The past is the connective tissue for the present and the future going forward.
> 
> Kill it...
> 
> We become lost, without direction.
> 
> Take care.



So, basically just your own assumptions rather than anything we've seen on the show, then.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Truth Seeker said:


> Judging from the license issued to Bad Robot/Secret Hideout....




You've read the contracts? I was under the impression that this show was made by production companies who have access to all of Star Trek. Isn't Secret Hideout just one of the companies producing it?



Truth Seeker said:


> I am glad it is back, the Trek journey...but it should be reaching out to the younger crowd, the kids. Right now...it is not doing that.




You have access to demographic reach information? There's only been two episodes.

And... _My_ kids are watching it, for whatever that's worth.

Or are you just saying that they're not producing toys? Toys aren't quite the money game they used to be - they cost a lot more to make than they used to. High-end toys can do well, sure, but those sell mostly to adults. A video game might do better. They're probably waiting for the show to gain popularity before selling those kinds of licenses, and I suspect we'll hear about more of that stuff eventually.

Do you work in licensing? It seems like a big concern for you.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Dire Bare said:


> Soong's process did not require twins. Data and Lore look identical, but aren't really twins, in the sense they were created at different times. And of course B-4, an inferior model created before Data and Lore, also looks identical to his two younger "brothers". Maddox studied Data to develop his own android process, but it is different than Soong's. Why does Maddox's process create twins? Perhaps we'll learn more . . .




Again, I fully understand that was what was suggested by earlier stories - what I'm saying here is that I believe that it's not impossible that the intention is to retcon that in the new show. I mean, B4 even EXISTING was a retcon in itself, right? Retcons can always go further.

... Unless you're just saying that your personal answer to my question is that you don't think that they're retconning it, and that you believe that Soong's process and Maddox's process are distinct, and this show hasn't changed that. Then, sure, I understand your opinion. Fair enough.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> So, basically just your own assumptions rather than anything we've seen on the show, then.




Assumptions? Well, I guess the decades of material proceeding before the PIcard show are all assumptions?

Just like everyone else who is verse in the Trek Lore, from the casual to the deepest, we apply to what we know. So no, I don't do assumptions, I may not know everything outright, but I do know what I have known for the years I have watched the franchise. I don't dismiss what others will say, as long it can hold up to scrutiny.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> Assumptions? Well, I guess the decades of material proceeding before the PIcard show are all assumptions?
> 
> Just like everyone else who is verse in the Trek Lore, from the casual to the deepest, we apply to what we know. So no, I don't do assumptions, I may not know everything outright, but I do know what I have known for the years I have watched the franchise. I don't dismiss what others will say, as long it can hold up to scrutiny.



So far, you haven't actually articulated any of that, though. You've speculated on what they might do down the line, but you haven't talked specifically about what, in these two specific episodes, you are seeing that suggests that they are ignoring established lore wholesale.


----------



## Truth Seeker

FitzTheRuke said:


> You've read the contracts? I was under the impression that this show was made by production companies *who have access to all of Star Trek. Isn't Secret Hideout just one of the companies producing it?
> 
> 
> 
> You have access to demographic reach information? There's only been two episodes.*
> 
> And... _My_ kids are watching it, for whatever that's worth.
> 
> *Or are you just saying that they're not producing toys? Toys aren't quite the money game they used to be - they cost a lot more to make than they used to. High-end toys can do well, sure, but those sell mostly to adults. A video game might do better. They're probably waiting for the show to gain popularity before selling those kinds of licenses, and I suspect we'll hear about more of that stuff eventually.
> 
> Do you work in licensing? It seems like a big concern for you.*




Secret Hideout/Bad Robot are license holders to a 25% variant of Star Trek _that is currently being disputed_

The appearances on the visuals do show otherwise. They are an outside company, not under the portfolio of CBS/Paramount. They do not have full access to the entire library of Trek. There was an high ranking individual in CBS last year that was helping to foster a deeper connection of Prime Trek in the SH production. Those licenses had to be paid for, and the outside studio pony up the money. But things changed when Mrs Redstone gain more control, and that person who was the go between was fired. Kurtzman on his side, reduced paying the license fees to use any more of the Prime Trek stuff, it was simply costing his company money.

And as of last July 2019---the movie license was not renewed by Paramount, the window is growing smaller for BR to make another film, investors are not hoping on board as of late. _Updated, the latest attempt to get things moving have reached a impasse._

The Paywall answers that.... _and trying to gain traction now, the first eps was released on YouTube a few days ago_

When BR first got the license back then. JJA insisted upon CBS to drop immediately of all the Prime Trek merchandise, a* 30 to 40 million dollars yearly revenue *stream. (this is in print), they bluntly told him NO _the cleaner response_ The Kelvin timeline of Trek video game died, and toys were far and few  in-between.

CBS was not giving up that cash flow. That is where JJA later jump to Star Wars, cause he was not going to get a market share on the profits. Repeated--3rd parties want no part of it, and CBS had threaten them with sanctions? But that has not moved them to get on board as of late.

Nope...just pay attention to the trends, listen to many opinions, make a decisive decision based on all able data.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> So far, you haven't actually articulated any of that, though. You've speculated on what they might do down the line, but you haven't talked specifically about what, in these two specific episodes, you are seeing that suggests that they are ignoring established lore wholesale.




There are folks on the internet, who have speculated much better than me, and some of their _assumptions_ have proven to be true or near it.

I am not going out of my way, to tear down anyone here, cause I know from my time on this forum. There are very capable individuals who can devise and dissect the show premise and message in greater detail.

I don't have to give a full detail summary to what I feel outright, cause the discussions of what make a show works, have been filtered to a higher degree on EnWorld, for a very long time. If I am questioning the crux of it, cause I want it to be better, than all the previous shows. It will be done so constructively.  

If the writers backgrounds were looked at, besides Michael S, do they have a scifi experience, do they have a full understanding to what they are 'preaching' before the masses? And for Eps #1, there was five writers, do you really need five to tell a story?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Truth Seeker said:


> Nope...just pay attention to the trends, listen to many opinions, make a decisive decision based on all able data.




That certainly is a mess, but I'm not sure where you get the idea that they can't use characters (such as Lore) from before 2009 in Picard (if that was even what you were saying back there)... because they obviously ARE using characters from before 2009. Like, all of them, except for the ones they're making up.

I must not be entirely following you. (Such is the nature of internet communication).


----------



## Dire Bare

Truth Seeker said:


> Okay, let's start with this...who is the show catering to?
> 
> Is for kids? No...
> 
> Is for the long time fans _trekkers_ Maybe...
> 
> Is for the casual viewer that don't know the full Lore of Trek? Yes.
> 
> They can emulate the feels of Trek, bring up fond memories for those who carry the franchise in their hearts for years upon years. Bu there has been a visual push to forego the nuances of this long legacy, that is very apparent. As I said before, I would like to see the show to be successful. But the one factor that help the show to be greater accepted.
> 
> You have to involve the Next Generation _pun not intended_, the young folks, the kids, and that is not there.
> 
> Behind a paywall, dropping curse words, if not seeking to have the show remembered for years to come, not having that great impression that would last in the minds of the many. What would be great about the show after its run, what would stand out and be talked about in the forums, person to person, etc., etc.
> 
> To pull a line that shows that there is a minority that does not care for long legacies and seek to tear them down, *"Let the Past die, kill it if you have to" *is a warning to the legacy bearers, that nothing is sacred anymore. I understand that franchises need to be 'refreshed' for today's current audiences, but the memory of those said franchises, are passed down by those who witness its beginnings, interact with it journey with purchases in the merchandising.
> 
> Right now, there is one or two vendor working with the show, the rest want nothing to do with it. They already have stated that the show premise is not recognizable to gain attention to sell stuff, to them. Without this extended avenue to gain traction, interest will wane.
> 
> Yes, I do look at this, with market value eyes on witnessing to how sustaining the longevity of this show will pan out. If the market is not biting. How will this show survive?
> 
> Ratings alone can't sustain it, it has to be massive multi level in merchandising, so the other effort is to sell to markets like to Amazon or NetFlick or in Canada for viewership. But will that be enough?
> 
> Rumor is that for 10 eps, price tag runs at $400 million dollars in total, originally suppose to be 13 eps, but condense down to 10. And for the emotional aspect of this, I am glad it is back, the Trek journey...but it should be reaching out to the younger crowd, the kids.
> 
> Right now...it is not doing that.
> 
> The past is the connective tissue for the present and the future going forward.
> 
> Kill it...
> 
> We become lost, without direction.
> 
> Take care.




You are making a lot of unsupported claims about the show here, and it's why nobody in the thread seems to be following your train of thought. Now, this is just a casual conversation, you don't have to dig up any hard evidence if you don't want to, but . . . . without some actual evidence of your claims, I just can't buy anything you're selling here. 

In my view, this show is clearly aimed at the adult crowd (_although I'm sure the showrunners would love younger audiences to join in too_), adults who are long-time Star Trek fans, and adults who aren't terribly familiar with Star Trek, but do love good cerebral sci-fi. The writers have a great knowledge of Trek lore, and they are very deliberately building on top of it for this show. The show's premise, if anything, builds too much on Trek lore that it risks losing viewers who haven't watched The Next Generation (_my Mom is a bit confused about what's going on_). All of my Trekkie friends are excited about the show, my family (non-Trekkies) are watching it, and many of my 13-year-old students are also (I'm a middle-school teacher). 

I'm sure we'll get some "collectibles" at some point down the road, if not actual toys, and the lack thereof after 2 episodes doesn't concern me in the least. In the past, one of the only ways to get sci-fi on TV was to aim it at kids and tie-in a toyline, but that's not true anymore and hasn't been for quite some time. Sci-fi showrunners have also been given more power to delay merchandising tie-ins to avoid spoilers (the whole Baby Yoda thing).

And ultimately, Picard isn't a continuation of The Next Generation, not really, despite the main character. It's a different show, a different style of storytelling, aimed at a different audience than sci-fi fans in the late 80s. And it's only one egg in the Star Trek basket, alongside Discovery and the several shows and movies that are in the works right now.

All of the media I've seen so far on Picard has been gushing, the only complaint that comes to mind is the slow-burn of the story (_we haven't met most of the characters teased in the trailers yet_). I haven't seen any of the negative chatter you reference . . . . although I don't hang out on the Star Trek equivalent to ENWorld (_not even sure what that is_). I wouldn't be surprised if some cranky Star Trek purists are upset, just as we have a contingent of folks here on ENWorld who manage to find complaints about almost everything WotC does with D&D. But I'm not worried that Picard is in danger! Season 2 is already greenlit, and there's a lot of excited, happy fans tuning in every week as the bio-android mystery deepens.


----------



## Dire Bare

FitzTheRuke said:


> Unless you're just saying that your personal answer to my question is that you don't think that they're retconning it, and that you believe that Soong's process and Maddox's process are distinct, and this show hasn't changed that. Then, sure, I understand your opinion. Fair enough.




Yup, that's it!  Sorry I wasn't clear!


----------



## Truth Seeker

FitzTheRuke said:


> That certainly is a mess, but I'm not sure where you get the idea that they can't use characters (such as Lore) from before 2009 in Picard (if that was even what you were saying back there)... because they obviously ARE using characters from before 2009. Like, all of them, except for the ones they're making up.
> 
> I must not be entirely following you. (Such is the nature of internet communication).




I may have mention it before, but I will repeat it again...the Star Trek license granted to BR, is the variant 25% license for the 2009 film, later for TV STD show, the same premise is shown in the look and visuals and history description.

As of December 7, 2019---the CBS and Paramount IPs use of Star Trek is now under one window again. Meanwhile Kurtzman has a 5 year contract *should be one to two years left on it*

BR/SH is strictly a third party using the visage of Trek, with certain limitations...the Kelvin timeline films shows this, the STD tv series, STP also shows this.

STP is maybe, the closest on showing the Prime Trek related visuals and story connections, but the variant rule *Not spoken out in the open anymore, as CBS has silenced that table talk* is still in place.

All previous makes of the DATA line, including the 'mother' of DATA are before the 2009 film of JJA release. If they do use them if so, the mention or use of Lore or the mother in the current show. the use of them has to be paid for.

*There is no freebies on the IP license*, this is strictly a business atmosphere. Merchandising as limited as it is, is not garnishing the extra revenue as they want. As example of the lack of visuals, the Las Vegas ST convention last year showed more folks *cosplayers* in the past series--NG, TOS series & movies, and maybe a few STD ones. That is a telltale sign on folks not taking well to the new incarnations. STD sour heavily that experience. 

Everything is relative and connected to make the  show more relevant in the people's eyes, and yes...there is talk that STP is a grade better than STD, but all of it, comes from the same company. Could the current series do better in someone's hands? Only time can tell on that one...


----------



## Dire Bare

Truth Seeker said:


> I may have mention it before, but I will repeat it again...the Star Trek license granted to BR, is the variant 25% license for the 2009 film, later for TV STD show, the same premise is shown in the look and visuals and history description.
> 
> As of December 7, 2019---the CBS and Paramount IPs use of Star Trek is now under one window again. Meanwhile Kurtzman has a 5 year contract *should be one to two years left on it*
> 
> BR/SH is strictly a third party using the visage of Trek, with certain limitations...the Kelvin timeline films shows this, the STD tv series, STP also shows this.
> 
> STP is maybe, the closest on showing the Prime Trek related visuals and story connections, but the variant rule *Not spoken out in the open anymore, as CBS has silenced that table talk* is still in place.
> 
> All previous makes of the DATA line, including the 'mother' of DATA are before the 2009 film of JJA release. If they do use them if so, the mention or use of Lore or the mother in the current show. the use of them has to be paid for.
> 
> *There is no freebies on the IP license*, this is strictly a business atmosphere. Merchandising as limited as it is, is not garnishing the extra revenue as they want. As example of the lack of visuals, the Las Vegas ST convention last year showed more folks *cosplayers* in the past series--NG, TOS series & movies, and maybe a few STD ones. That is a telltale sign on folks not taking well to the new incarnations. STD sour heavily that experience.
> 
> Everything is relative and connected to make the  show more relevant in the people's eyes, and yes...there is talk that STP is a grade better than STD, but all of it, comes from the same company. Could the current series do better in someone's hands? Only time can tell on that one...




I'm still sooooo confused over your claims here, and again, without more than "folks on the internet have been talking", I just can't buy any of it. The IP being split between CBS and Paramount was/is definitely a confusing and weird situation, and lawyers can definitely get weird about what you can and cannot use in a show (_as a DC universe and Arrow-verse fan, I'm aware that silly limitations can be in place behind the scenes_). 

You seem to be claiming that ST: Picard can't use story elements and characters that have solely appeared before 2009 . . . . that's EVERYTHING other than the J.J. Abrams films! They wouldn't be able to use the characters of Picard, Data, Maddox, and the rest of the old crew who've been teased to appear later in the series. I might be misunderstanding your point, but . . . .

And even if that were true, that's not a reflection on the knowledge and quality of the show's writing . . . .

And . . . . you're basing your impression of what folks choose to cosplay as to how well the new series are being received?!?! Um, okay, you've totally lost me on this one. I don't go to Star Trek conventions (although, I'm sure it would be a lot of fun), but we've got 50+ years of Trek to pull cosplay inspiration from, and both ST: Discovery and ST: Picard are the new kids on the block. Regardless of how existing Trek fans are digging (or not digging) the new shows, I would expect the older characters to dominate cosplay for quite some time to come. In my own anecdotal experience, I've seen plenty of ST: Discovery cosplay online, nothing from ST: Picard yet (but we're only 2 episodes in).


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> You are making a lot of unsupported claims about the show here, and it's why nobody in the thread seems to be following your train of thought. Now, this is just a casual conversation, you don't have to dig up any hard evidence if you don't want to, but . . . . without some actual evidence of your claims, I just can't buy anything you're selling here.
> 
> In my view, this show is clearly aimed at the adult crowd (_although I'm sure the showrunners would love younger audiences to join in too_), adults who are long-time Star Trek fans, and adults who aren't terribly familiar with Star Trek, but do love good cerebral sci-fi. The writers have a great knowledge of Trek lore, and they are very deliberately building on top of it for this show. The show's premise, if anything, builds too much on Trek lore that it risks losing viewers who haven't watched The Next Generation (_my Mom is a bit confused about what's going on_). All of my Trekkie friends are excited about the show, my family (non-Trekkies) are watching it, and many of my 13-year-old students are also (I'm a middle-school teacher).
> 
> I'm sure we'll get some "collectibles" at some point down the road, if not actual toys, and the lack thereof after 2 episodes doesn't concern me in the least. In the past, one of the only ways to get sci-fi on TV was to aim it at kids and tie-in a toyline, but that's not true anymore and hasn't been for quite some time. Sci-fi showrunners have also been given more power to delay merchandising tie-ins to avoid spoilers (the whole Baby Yoda thing).
> 
> And ultimately, Picard isn't a continuation of The Next Generation, not really, despite the main character. It's a different show, a different style of storytelling, aimed at a different audience than sci-fi fans in the late 80s. And it's only one egg in the Star Trek basket, alongside Discovery and the several shows and movies that are in the works right now.
> 
> All of the media I've seen so far on Picard has been gushing, the only complaint that comes to mind is the slow-burn of the story (_we haven't met most of the characters teased in the trailers yet_). I haven't seen any of the negative chatter you reference . . . . although I don't hang out on the Star Trek equivalent to ENWorld (_not even sure what that is_). I wouldn't be surprised if some cranky Star Trek purists are upset, just as we have a contingent of folks here on ENWorld who manage to find complaints about almost everything WotC does with D&D. But I'm not worried that Picard is in danger! Season 2 is already greenlit, and there's a lot of excited, happy fans tuning in every week as the bio-android mystery deepens.




Sir Patrick Stewart has already said in previous interviews, he did not want to channel the Same character from NGST, I am fine with that. And that was said before the show aired.

If there any collectibles to be sold down the road, the show has to grow and maintain the interest to itself, consistently...the staying power has to be there.

Catering to the Adults looks to be so, but getting the young ones after us, should be the goal too.

The reviews from Rotten Tomatoes are questionable, considering the past events on other films being bolstered with incorrect ratings or reviews. *this is a example*

And yes,  I have seen the positive side, but that glare will disappear at one point. 

As I said before and will say again, like very much the show to be successful, but there is no reason, to start with flaws that will be questioned. And the excuse that the show is getting its legs, to me is lame. If there are folks who are seasoned writers, producers and directors should have a greater understanding to how to present a show, no matter what the genre is. Telling the story visually, knowledgeably and story telling should show from their experience and expertise.

As for the_ negative _chatter, that is people questioning the intent of the show.


----------



## Dire Bare

Truth Seeker said:


> Sir Patrick Stewart has already said in previous interviews, he did not want to channel the Same character from NGST, I am fine with that. And that was said before the show aired.




Stewart is talking about character growth. In both the real world and the Star Trek universe, decades have passed. Jean-Luc Picard is not the same person he was 20 years ago, just as Patrick Stewart isn't the same person he was 20 years ago. Neither am I, for that matter. I'm not the same kid tuning in every week jealous that Wil Wheaton gets to be on the Enterprise and I don't . . . .

Stewart was not interested in ST: The Next Generation "Season 8", or in yet another entry in the movie series after ST: Nemesis, where (_in episodic storytelling fashion_) Picard is in pretty much the same place he was in most episodes of the show. Stewart has expressed similar sentiments in reprising the role of Professor X in the X-Men franchise. Both the Professor X of "Logan" and the Picard of "Star Trek: Picard" are men who have grown and are in very different places in their lives from what we remember "back in the day".

AND I LOVE THIS! I'd watch a "Season 8" of Next Gen, don't get me wrong, but this is storytelling that has me excited and intrigued. Way more interesting to see how the decades have treated Picard than watching a re-tread of Next Gen. ST: Picard builds on top of the lore of Next Gen and the rest of Star Trek, but it is most certainly a show with a different storytelling tone for an audience that has also changed over the years, long-time Trek fans and just sci-fi fans in general.

Are there some long-time fans grumpy that ST: Disco and ST: Picard are "not true Star Trek" shows, just like we had grognards here on ENWorld grumping that the latest D&D edition is "not my D&D"?!?! Of course we do. That is a constant of life. But is there a LOT of fans unhappy with the direction of the new Star Trek shows? Possibly, I suppose, but I haven't seen evidence of it, and both shows seem to be doing just fine.

_EDIT: Add in last paragraph._


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> I'm still sooooo confused over your claims here, and again, without more than "folks on the internet have been talking", I just can't buy any of it. The IP being split between CBS and Paramount was/is definitely a confusing and weird situation, and lawyers can definitely get weird about what you can and cannot use in a show (_as a DC universe and Arrow-verse fan, I'm aware that silly limitations can be in place behind the scenes_).
> 
> You seem to be claiming that ST: Picard can't use story elements and characters that have solely appeared before 2009 . . . . that's EVERYTHING other than the J.J. Abrams films! They wouldn't be able to use the characters of Picard, Data, Maddox, and the rest of the old crew who've been teased to appear later in the series. I might be misunderstanding your point, but . . . .
> 
> And even if that were true, that's not a reflection on the knowledge and quality of the show's writing . . . .
> 
> And . . . . you're basing your impression of what folks choose to cosplay as to how well the new series are being received?!?! Um, okay, you've totally lost me on this one. I don't go to Star Trek conventions (although, I'm sure it would be a lot of fun), but we've got 50+ years of Trek to pull cosplay inspiration from, and both ST: Discovery and ST: Picard are the new kids on the block. Regardless of how existing Trek fans are digging (or not digging) the new shows, I would expect the older characters to dominate cosplay for quite some time to come. In my own anecdotal experience, I've seen plenty of ST: Discovery cosplay online, nothing from ST: Picard yet (but we're only 2 episodes in).




Are you serious getting bent of shape, because I question the premise of its make? Or it is that I have been a quiet fellow in this thread for months or years, and then suddenly I just appeared out of no where?

It is okay, you question what I say...I don't say things out of the blue, for kicks for any reason. I have listen to other sources when the show was announced and continue to do so while it airs. Comparison to what was to what is now, is our preview to do. And throwing the D&D references pails in difference to what Trek means to many.

As for Picard, this is his personal story...his journey for one great hooray, it will be less Trek in appearance, because he is not directly in Star Fleet. I am okay with that too.

As for the misunderstanding, there is not enough reference from me to conclude a MOD that can be compared. Blame Facebook LOL.

Bottom line...if the show does not rise to the occasion, it is not our fault. And being cautious is part of the process on the flipping of our beloved franchises. Nothing is accepted at Face value, EnWorld taught me that.


----------



## Dire Bare

Truth Seeker said:


> Are you serious getting bent of shape, because I question the premise of its make? Or it is that I have been a quiet fellow in this thread for months or years, and then suddenly I just appeared out of no where?
> 
> It is okay, you question what I say...I don't say things out of the blue, for kicks for any reason. I have listen to other sources when the show was announced and continue to do so while it airs. Comparison to what was to what is now, is our preview to do. And throwing the D&D references pails in difference to what Trek means to many.
> 
> As for Picard, this is his personal story...his journey for one great hooray, it will be less Trek in appearance, because he is not directly in Star Fleet. I am okay with that too.
> 
> As for the misunderstanding, there is not enough reference from me to conclude a MOD that can be compared. Blame Facebook LOL.
> 
> Bottom line...if the show does not rise to the occasion, it is not our fault. And being cautious is part of the process on the flipping of our beloved franchises. Nothing is accepted at Face value, EnWorld taught me that.




Bent out of shape? Nah. Not understanding your point? Yeah. This is just a casual conversation about a nerdy TV show, but it's easy to get a bit passionate about it, positively or negatively, as I'm sure most in this thread LOVE Star Trek, just as we LOVE D&D and hang out on ENWorld.

If I've gotten too excited while expressing my disagreement and confusion over your points, sorry. From my POV, I'm so in love with this new show, ST: Picard, that the negative views expressed by some confuse me . . . are we watching the same show?!?! But anyway, to each his own, YMMV, yada yada . . . .


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Count me in, too, on not following your point of view, while not being upset about it, and honestly trying to understand what you're talking about, because I feel like you have something interesting to say, I'm just not sure what it is.

Case in point:



Truth Seeker said:


> As for the misunderstanding, there is not enough reference from me to conclude a MOD that can be compared. Blame Facebook LOL.




... I have no idea what any of that means.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> Are you serious getting bent of shape, because I question the premise of its make? Or it is that I have been a quiet fellow in this thread for months or years, and then suddenly I just appeared out of no where?



Uhhh... the thread's only existed for nine days...?


----------



## Dire Bare

MarkB said:


> Uhhh... the thread's only existed for nine days...?




Dude. You know what he means. Long-time lurker, infrequent poster. Can we not waste time criticizing others grammar and word-choices . . . . at least on the easy-to-understand and relatively minor points?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Dire Bare said:


> Dude. You know what he means. Long-time lurker, infrequent poster. Can we not waste time criticizing others grammar and word-choices?




I think MarkB's point was only that most of us here are unlikely to even _know_ that Truth Seeker is an infrequent poster or just popped up. We're very unlikely to have it influence how we respond to him/her here. 

I doubt it was meant as much of a criticism.


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> I think MarkB's point was only that most of us here are unlikely to even _know_ that Truth Seeker is an infrequent poster or just popped up. We're very unlikely to have it influence how we respond to him/her here.
> 
> I doubt it was meant as much of a criticism.



I wasn't intending to be critical, just confused.

And yeah, I don't keep track of most posters on ENWorld, so I'm not going to particularly notice if anyone's a new face here, or treat them differently because of it.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> Bent out of shape? Nah. Not understanding your point? Yeah. *This is just a casual conversation* about a nerdy TV show, but it's easy to get a bit passionate about it, positively or negatively, as I'm sure most in this thread LOVE Star Trek, just as we LOVE D&D and hang out on ENWorld.
> 
> If I've gotten too excited while expressing my disagreement and confusion over your points, sorry. From my POV, I'm so in love with this new show, ST: Picard,* that the negative views expressed by some confuse me . . . are we watching the same show?!?!* But anyway, to each his own, YMMV, yada yada . . . .




To that I am treating as such...nothing more nothing less.

To what I seeing via the internet, everyone or almost everyone are doing comparisons and in some quarters it not matching their expectations.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> Stewart is talking about character growth. In both the real world and the Star Trek universe, decades have passed. Jean-Luc Picard is not the same person he was 20 years ago, just as Patrick Stewart isn't the same person he was 20 years ago. Neither am I, for that matter. I'm not the same kid tuning in every week jealous that Wil Wheaton gets to be on the Enterprise and I don't . . . .
> 
> Stewart was not interested in ST: The Next Generation "Season 8", or in yet another entry in the movie series after ST: Nemesis, where (_in episodic storytelling fashion_) Picard is in pretty much the same place he was in most episodes of the show. Stewart has expressed similar sentiments in reprising the role of Professor X in the X-Men franchise. Both the Professor X of "Logan" and the Picard of "Star Trek: Picard" are men who have grown and are in very different places in their lives from what we remember "back in the day".
> 
> AND I LOVE THIS! I'd watch a "Season 8" of Next Gen, don't get me wrong, but this is storytelling that has me excited and intrigued. Way more interesting to see how the decades have treated Picard than watching a re-tread of Next Gen. ST: Picard builds on top of the lore of Next Gen and the rest of Star Trek, but it is most certainly a show with a different storytelling tone for an audience that has also changed over the years, long-time Trek fans and just sci-fi fans in general.
> 
> *Are there some long-time fans grumpy that ST: Disco and ST: Picard are "not true Star Trek" shows, just like we had grognards here on ENWorld grumping that the latest D&D edition is "not my D&D"?!?! Of course we do. That is a constant of life. But is there a LOT of fans unhappy with the direction of the new Star Trek shows? Possibly, I suppose, but I haven't seen evidence of it, and both shows seem to be doing just fine*.
> 
> _EDIT: Add in last paragraph._




On the upper part of your last paragraph...I remembered the days of thread closings and bans (shakes head in sorrow on those old days)

For ST, the brand is more recognized than D&D, and yes the feverish love for it, has a greater pronounce effect than the former. But given the latest 'assault'' on DW and SW, long time fans and those who were raised on these fictional, creative fantastical stories, followed by least 3 or 2 generations. There is a heavy investment, D&D in the same vein. But the others have greater representation, that is a undisputed fact.

As a friend of min once said to me maybe a decade or two ago, that yes, rebooting or refreshing a franchise for a newer audience, is a given, if the companies to keep that said IP and wants to be make a continuing profit from it. At the time, I didn't think of far reaching consequences of such a decision. In today's climate, I do now...there is much more diverse media to distract or attract that needed audience to give the coin to keep that specific franchise alive.

This show face these challenges to be relevant and to be current in the people eyes...how that is done, is the journey that will be questioned. 

It is same way, we gamers have questioned the use of new Editions of D&D, is it worth getting, it is worth playing, it is worth spending that coin. I will put in the record, I am SCIFI nerd before D&D, was expose to the former from the late 60's, 70's and early 80's, 1983 or '84 I started into the RPG life.

I do love both genres, but Sci-Fi gets the upper hand with me.

There is a divide with Trek, as there with Star Wars, and Doctor Who, on the last two, are they salvageable? Trek dealt in possibilities and hope for a greater future. Star Wars dealt with dealing with the Darker nature and holding it at bay.

And being honest here...what did Doctor Who represent? Watch enough of it, but I didn't get or see the message.

The other 2 mentioned, I did...hence the different points of views.

Thanks for the discussion, the EnWorld crowd has never disappoints.


----------



## bloodtide

As a Star Trek lore person, I'd say the show has been good at following the established lore.  Someone is doing the fact checking.  

I still think the twins will be daughters of Data AND Lore.  

This show is filling in a lore gap too:  Why does the galaxy have no androids, robots or artificial intelligences?  Not just Starfleet or the Federation.....but Everyone.  We have seen, in the Original Trek, ancient alien robots....but nothing in the present.  So...why not?

Well, what if there is a group of people that are keeping such things in check.  People that want to stop the AI robot apocalypse that might (aka will) happen.  Maybe some helpful aliens like the Preservers?   Maybe it is species 00001...the race that made the Borg?  

Or maybe.....considering Picard's Asomov robot  book....ist's a Super Artificial Intelligent Android, kinda like R.Daniel......


----------



## Truth Seeker

bloodtide said:


> As a Star Trek lore person, I'd say the show has been good at following the established lore.  Someone is doing the fact checking.
> 
> *I still think the twins will be daughters of Data AND Lore. *
> 
> This show is filling in a lore gap too:  *Why does the galaxy have no androids, robots or artificial intelligences?  Not just Starfleet or the Federation.....but Everyone.  We have seen, in the Original Trek, ancient alien robots....but nothing in the present.  So...why not?*
> 
> Well, what if there is a group of people that are keeping such things in check.  People that want to stop the AI robot apocalypse that might (aka will) happen.  Maybe some helpful aliens like the Preservers?   Maybe it is species 00001...the race that made the Borg?
> 
> Or maybe.....considering Picard's Asomov robot  book....ist's a Super Artificial Intelligent Android, kinda like R.Daniel......




Don't forget Lal... 

Added---I have to consider that the twin are the sole creation of * Bruce Maddox,* since he brought them to life, using  *ahem* a template of Cmdr. DATA from a single 'neuron'. Bruce was the dad here. As for LORE, that remains to be seen, if he is too a contributor *last seen deactivated, boxed and stored in a unknown location*

Interesting throw there...well we got 8 more eps to go, hopefully it will be explained, but they might have jump the shark on why things are the way they are?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Well, if you go with my "they're ALL twins" retcon idea... maybe there's always a Data and a Lore? So you have Dahj (Data) and Soji (Lore) and maybe we'll later get Brent Spiner playing "B3" (Or whatever)... B4's "Lore". He _did_ suggest in a convention interview that Data wasn't the only character he could play. Everyone assumed B4, but B4 is in a drawer. That's not exactly Spiner playing him, is it.

I know I'm not getting much support for my twins-idea, but Lore's whole creation came from an "evil twin" trope. The writer's room could absolutely have said "What if EVERY android has a twin!?"


----------



## Truth Seeker

FitzTheRuke said:


> Well, if you go with my "they're ALL twins" retcon idea... maybe there's always a Data and a Lore? So you have Dahj (Data) and Soji (Lore) and maybe we'll later get Brent Spiner playing "B3" (Or whatever)... B4's "Lore". He _did_ suggest in a convention interview that Data wasn't the only character he could play. Everyone assumed B4, but B4 is in a drawer. That's not exactly Spiner playing him, is it.
> 
> I know I'm not getting much support for my twins-idea, *but Lore's whole creation came from an "evil twin" trope. The writer's room could absolutely have said "What if EVERY android has a twin!?*"




In Order of Creation...
B4
Lore
Data
Soong's dead wife Juliana *superior model*
Lal by Data---total cascade failure.

Added---if the daughters were born just shy of three years ago in Star Trek time, then the only means for their speedy development will not come from Lore or Data...it will be Soong's replica Wife.

She is fully developed in all human nuances, with the condition she ever discovered she is not human, she will shut down for good. If Bruce ever knew about her, she is the true source of android development, to be human. Soong's last and greatest achievement. And in three years, to get to the point to how the girls are, would have taken time. If this theory holds, Bruce couldn't have reach this stage, he did a shortcut.

I know you want the Twin moment, but if they do go there, it will be massive curve to say the least.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> To what I seeing via the internet, everyone or almost everyone are doing comparisons and in some quarters it not matching their expectations.



This statement can also apply to just about every single high-profile product of any kind that's been released in the past 20+ years.

In particular, I'm pretty sure it's sociologically impossible for any sequel or follow-up to an old and well regarded TV series to match everybody's expectations.


----------



## Mallus

Does anyone know where this '25% Star Trek' thing comes from? I'm seeing it a lot online lately and, frankly, it sounds like pure Internet BS. How would you go about determining what percentage 'Star Trek' a show is? Can you use a tricorder?

"Captain, sensors indicate the new series masses .25 militreks on the Daystrom-Desilu scale, just within legal tolerance limits".

Contacts, licensing agreements, they would cover specific IP ("You can use the Klingons, but not the Romulans", "You can reference material from the first 6 films, but not the TNG-era films"), wouldn't they? Not some random percentage that sounds impossible to quantify, let alone enforce.

In two episodes of Picard, we've got direct references to events in Nemesis, Star Trek (2009), and multiple TNG episodes. On Discovery we have Pike and Spock as characters in the 2nd season, as well as an episode that serves as (and is framed as) part 2 of the unaired pilot. This covers a pretty broad swath of the ST universe.

So...25% of what?? Who is convincing people of this?

edit: also, Data's daughter from "The Offspring" is Lal. It means 'beloved'.


----------



## Nagol

Mallus said:


> Does anyone know where this '25% Star Trek' thing comes from? I'm seeing it a lot online lately and, frankly, it sounds like pure Internet BS. How would you go about determining what percentage 'Star Trek' a show is? Can you use a tricorder?
> 
> "Captain, sensors indicate the new series masses .25 militreks on the Daystrom-Desilu scale, just within legal tolerance limits".
> 
> Contacts, licensing agreements, they would cover specific IP ("You can use the Klingons, but not the Romulans", "You can refenence material from he first 6 films, but the TNG-era films"), wouldn't they? Not some random percentage that sounds impossible to quantify, let alone enforce.
> 
> In two episodes of Picard, we've got direct references to events in Nemesis, Star Trek (2009), and multiple TNG episodes. On Discovery we have Pike and Spock as characters in the 2nd season, as well as an episode that serves as (and is framed as) part 2 of the unaired pilot. This covers a pretty broad swath of the ST universe.
> 
> So...25% of what?? Who is convincing people of this?
> 
> edit: also, Data's daughter from "The Offspring" is Lal. It means 'beloved'.




It's an original misinterpretation by a reporter talking to an artist who was asked to change about a quarter of designs on Discovery.  That interpretation was misinterpreted by those who saw his musings

There was an interview with the designers of the Enterprise as seen at the end of Discovery and one of them said they were asked to change it by about 25%. When asked if that was an aesthetic or legal demand, he said “legal”.

The reporter put a statement regarding his personal speculation on a private Facebook group and it got out.

This “rule” has been disavowed by the artist, CBS, the production team, basically anyone in the know.


----------



## Mallus

As for the Picard S01E02 itself, the things that stood out for me were, oddly enough, the worldbuilding. We saw two completely new things: the Federation having to make an actually economic decision and radical changes to the Romulan Empire presented in a fairly subtle way.

I believe for the first time, we got a sense of what could tax the Fedration's mostly post-scarcity economy. A fleet of 10,000 warp-capable ships could be had with some badgering from a storied and self-righteous admiral. But 10,000 more? Not outside the Federation's capability, but beyond their political will (with good reason for the decision, too).

Then we got a picture of the successor state of the Romulan Star Empire via Borg Cube U. ("Go Drones! Resistance is Futile"). The famously secretive & paranoid culture inviting researchers --seemingly young, mostly -- from around the galaxy to 'join in' studying Borg artifacts (which the Romulans keep). Sure, it's a university full of armed soldiers and spies, but it's still an interesting form of glasnost that's congruent with the devastating loss of the Romulans home system. Gives them an almost post-Soviet vibe; esp.with the hit squads operating with impunity in the West, err, on Earth.

(I also liked CSI: Tal Shiar and the amazing scene of the admiral spitting venom at Jean-Luc, but honestly it was the nerdy setting stuff I keep thinking about).


----------



## Truth Seeker

Mallus said:


> Does anyone know where this '25% Star Trek' thing comes from? I'm seeing it a lot online lately and, frankly, it sounds like pure Internet BS. How would you go about determining what percentage 'Star Trek' a show is? Can you use a tricorder?
> 
> "Captain, sensors indicate the new series masses .25 militreks on the Daystrom-Desilu scale, just within legal tolerance limits".
> 
> Contacts, licensing agreements, they would cover specific IP ("You can use the Klingons, but not the Romulans", "You can refenence material from he first 6 films, but the TNG-era films"), wouldn't they? Not some random percentage that sounds impossible to quantify, let alone enforce.
> 
> In two episodes of Picard, we've got direct references to events in Nemesis, Star Trek (2009), and multiples TNG episodes. On Discovery we have Pike and Spock as characters in the 2nd season, as well as an episode that serves as part 2 of the unaired pilot. This cover a broad swath of the ST universe.
> 
> So...25% of what??




When BR got the license for Trek, the word was that Paramount or CBS insist on a differences on the look of Trek. CBS on their part, was trying to get Main Vendors to go with the changes, several didn't, besides the video game and a few merchandise products that surface. This supports the earlier mentioned of JJA wanted CBS to drop all the Prime Trek merch for their Kelvin and alt look for their Trek. CBS never allowed that request.

References was made by some product staff to the TV series about the changes to the Enterprise. Then such airings were scrubbed off the internet by the direction of CBS, reason...they did not want any future vendors to be aware of such changes had occurred. That is a bit of a red herring, cause of screen captures or word of mouth, some folks know the full truth.

Soooo, the quieting was successful to a point, but the visual evidence from the movies after 2009 and tv series, shows otherwise.

The Picard series is the closest thing to Prime Trek, but there is still variant styles shown in the show.  One example of this, at Starfleet Headquarters, the holographic display of the 'TOS' Enterprise was from the Discovery series, not from the original TOS representation.  Second example, was the showing of Picard's Room of Memorabilia...the showing of the Stargazer, the captain's Yacht, and the Enterprise D were given at least maybe around 4 to 8 seconds viewings, on the left side of the room, on a shelf, was the Sovereign class, port side viewing of it, from the back half of the Saucer section to the lower body to the nacelle and to the aft end..that viewing was under at best* 1.5 to 2 seconds.*

The only way to see the entire length of that ship, you have freeze frame that corner when it comes into view. Why was the other ships giving a longer viewing time than the Sov? It is the small things that linger like this...brings the questions. So yeah...you are not going to find the discussions of the 25% variant unless you go to YouTube or wherever else that keeps that issue alive. But it was heard earlier in the beginnings and then was quieted when CBS wanted a go with the series for their Streaming services, as a company who wants to make profit, yes...they will do what is necessary to quiet any discussion on what changes had occurred.

*UPDATE*--Just saw a vid blogger piece on the possible happenings that Seth McFarlane wants to buy Trek from CBS for NBC. Supposedly a two hour meeting, ended in a half an hour. CBS wanted too much for it, but there was a general agreement on both sides to what licenses will go to him, if the deal had gone through.

The only exception was--- Bad Robot/Secret Hideout, their unique license stays with them.

Here is the *link* of that article. Stated as Rumor.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Mallus said:


> As for the Picard S01E02 itself, the things that stood out for me were, oddly enough, the worldbuilding. We saw two completely new things: the Federation having to make an actually economic decision and radical changes to the Romulan Empire presented in a fairly subtle way.
> 
> I believe for the first time, we got a sense of what could tax the Fedration's mostly post-scarcity economy. A fleet of 10,000 warp-capable ships could be had with some badgering from a storied and self-righteous admiral. But 10,000 more? Not outside the Federation's capability, but beyond their political will (with good reason for the decision, too).
> 
> Then we got a picture of the successor state of the Romulan Star Empire via Borg Cube U. ("Go Drones! Resistance is Futile"). The famously secretive & paranoid culture inviting researchers --seemingly young, mostly -- from around the galaxy to 'join in' studying Borg artifacts (which the Romulans keep). Sure, it's a university full of armed soldiers and spies, but it's still an interesting form of glasnost that's congruent with the devastating loss of the Romulans home system. Gives them an almost post-Soviet vibe; esp.with the hit squads operating with impunity in the West, err, on Earth.
> 
> (I also liked CSI: Tal Shiar and the amazing scene of the admiral spitting venom at Jean-Luc, but honestly it was the nerdy setting stuff I keep thinking about).




Got a bigger question, given how big the Romulan empire is as remembered. Why didn't the Romulan government did the rescue themselves, they got the ships, they got the worlds, and if as stated from the series, the condition of the sun beforehand, and it sounds like it was. The Romulan government could have taken care of that on their own.

As for Starfleet, it has been pointed out, when things get wonky...they look to get out of it. This behavior was present in all previous Tv series and movies.


----------



## Zardnaar

When I started watching STDvi didn't recognize the Klingon s as Klingons which was a bit silly IMHO. 

 Casual Trek fan. Seen most if the movies, all if DS9 some of TNG.

 Picard's ok so far. Romulon with clipped ears disguise is kinda funny.


----------



## Mallus

Truth Seeker said:


> Got a bigger question, given how big the Romulan empire is as remembered. Why didn't the Romulan government did the rescue themselves, they got the ships, they got the worlds, and if as stated from the series, the condition of the sun beforehand, and it sounds like it was. The Romulan government could have taken care of that on their own.



How big is the Romulan Empire? All we really know is they can threaten the Federation. Details are scant. Presumably the Romulans did evacuate a portion of their population, but stuffing all 900,000,000 homeworld citizens onto starships sounds... challenging.

Remember too, the Federation’s industrial base is formidable. Way more advanced than the Cardassians, who are also presented as a credible threat. So the Romulans being in need of Federation assistance scans.

And Trek’s always been weird with population density. From what we’ve seen, even the major longtime starfaring races are concentrated in their home systems. A lot of Federation colonies look super-low pop density; more like camping than colonization.


----------



## Hussar

Truth Seeker said:


> The only way to see the entire length of that ship, you have freeze frame that corner when it comes into view. Why was the other ships giving a longer viewing time than the Sov? It is the small things that linger like this...brings the questions. So yeah...you are not going to find the discussions of the 25% variant unless you go to YouTube or wherever else that keeps that issue alive. But it was heard earlier in the beginnings and then was quieted when CBS wanted a go with the series for their Streaming services, as a company who wants to make profit, yes...they will do what is necessary to quiet any discussion on what changes had occurred.




OH MY GOD.  

People need a freaking hobby.  If you are watching a show, frame by frame, to prove some conspiricy point about how "authentic" a TV show is, that's about the saddest thing I've ever read.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Hussar said:


> OH MY GOD.
> 
> People need a freaking hobby.  If you are watching a show, frame by frame, to prove some conspiricy point about how "authentic" a TV show is, that's about the saddest thing I've ever read.




I forgot to add that I am a photographer with a decade plus experience. If that will help understanding my observation.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Mallus said:


> How big is the Romulan Empire? All we really know is they can threaten the Federation. Details are scant. *Presumably the Romulans did evacuate a portion of their population, but stuffing all 900,000,000 homeworld citizens onto starships sounds... challenging.*
> 
> Remember too, the Federation’s industrial base is formidable. Way more advanced than the Cardassians, who are also presented as a credible threat. So the Romulans being in need of Federation assistance scans.
> 
> And Trek’s always been weird with population density. From what we’ve seen, even the major longtime starfaring races are concentrated in their home systems. A lot of Federation colonies look super-low pop density; more like camping than colonization.




That will be challenging for any advance space faring race to do, but there's a indication (could be wrong), but they knew this was happening in advance.

And yes, the Federation is advance with great diversity of science from it members worlds, but as it was shown also, it looks like that the Romulans were very advanced in the tech themselves and kept a lot of it, hidden.

So...who was greater, the Federation under a two hundred years plus of birth, or a Empire, who was around for a few thousand years?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I want it to turn out that the Romulans were "fracking" their own star and caused the supernova... because you'd think an advanced space-faring race would have hundreds of years (at least) to plan for their star going supernova...


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Truth Seeker said:


> I know you want the Twin moment, but if they do go there, it will be massive curve to say the least.




Well, I wouldn't say I necessarily "want" a twin-moment... I just think it's possible that they're suggesting it.

Here's another idea to go with it: Was B4 really _originally_ dumber than Data/Lore, or did _his_ evil twin damage him? Maybe they've always been Cain and Able?


----------



## Hussar

Truth Seeker said:


> That will be challenging for any advance space faring race to do, but there's a indication (could be wrong), but they knew this was happening in advance.
> 
> And yes, the Federation is advance with great diversity of science from it members worlds, but as it was shown also, it looks like that the Romulans were very advanced in the tech themselves and kept a lot of it, hidden.
> 
> So...who was greater, the Federation under a two hundred years plus of birth, or a Empire, who was around for a few thousand years?




This has ALWAYS been the problem with Star Trek.  You have all these different races that have been space faring for centuries, if not millennia before the humans get out there, and, yet, in a very short span of time, not only have the humans caught up with everyone, they've flat out surpassed most of them.  It doesn't stand up to a moment of scrutiny and it's one of those things you just have to completely ignore in the show.  

Think about it.  The Klingons had centuries of empire building - hundreds of worlds, lots of resources, yet, within a century of hitting interstellar flight, the humans cobble together a federation totally capable of kicking the Klingon's butt.   

Without delving too deeply into the colonialism inherent in the show, it's far, far easier just to let it slide.


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> This has ALWAYS been the problem with Star Trek.  You have all these different races that have been space faring for centuries, if not millennia before the humans get out there, and, yet, in a very short span of time, not only have the humans caught up with everyone, they've flat out surpassed most of them.  It doesn't stand up to a moment of scrutiny and it's one of those things you just have to completely ignore in the show.
> 
> Think about it.  The Klingons had centuries of empire building - hundreds of worlds, lots of resources, yet, within a century of hitting interstellar flight, the humans cobble together a federation totally capable of kicking the Klingon's butt.
> 
> Without delving too deeply into the colonialism inherent in the show, it's far, far easier just to let it slide.



Well, that's the difference. The Klingons are just the Klingons. The Romulans are just the Romulans. The Federation are the Humans and the Vulcans and the Tellarites and the Andorians and dozens of other races. They're the ones who _didn't_ just go out and colonise a bunch of other cultures - they banded together for the betterment of their respective cultures and economies.


----------



## Hussar

MarkB said:


> Well, that's the difference. The Klingons are just the Klingons. The Romulans are just the Romulans. The Federation are the Humans and the Vulcans and the Tellarites and the Andorians and dozens of other races. They're the ones who _didn't_ just go out and colonise a bunch of other cultures - they banded together for the betterment of their respective cultures and economies.




Well... sort of.  

I mean, if you have several hundred worlds in your empire, for several centuries, you can't really help but accumulate massive amounts of capital.  Yet, the humans, in a tiny fraction of the time, have gone from being bound on one planet to running an interstellar federation that is the largest, most powerful political body in the quadrant.  

It's not really all that plausible.  It works because we tend to ignore it.  And, well, it fits nicely within colonialist attitudes.  Anybody that's not us is just a bunch of barbarians and ignorant savages incapable of doing things right.  Vulcans are far more advanced, totally based on logic yet, every seven years their males fight each other to the death in order to procreate.    You'd think a technologically superior race based on logic might, oh, I dunno, figure out some sort of medication for this?  

Klingons are so busy being drunk barbarians that they never actually get around to developing anything?  Really?  Centuries old empire of hundreds of worlds, and their technological development is so stunted that we catch up in a generation?  

So on and so forth.  Humans rule because, well, we're humans watching the show and if it was even remotely realistic (humans being relagated to third world status, totally dependent on the hand outs from more technologically developed races), the show would be too depressing to watch.


----------



## Janx

Truth Seeker said:


> Cannot confirm directly, but some folks are saying that  some scenes are off, and there is a question of cramming stuff in _example--Picard's brain condition is terminal_ Like that should be put later in the season, instead we got it in Eps #2.




No.  Diseases, Deaths and Divorces on Page 1.  Popping the "and he's got cancer" late in the game is considered crap writing.  I've been studying this stuff.


----------



## Janx

Finished Ep2 last night.  Everybody enjoyed it.

What do we know?
Secret Secret Romulans Hate AI
They probably subverted the Synths to blow up Mars
Starfleet doesn't like Picard
He still doesn't have a starship or a destination
Romulans have invited scientists to help dismantle their nuclear program, I mean Borg Cube
Secret Secret Romulan Boyfriend is dating Z
Romulans and Secret Romulans have infiltrated Starfleet

What do I think?
Maddox didn't blow up Mars
Maddox' process is not the same as Soong's

Questions
Is the Commodore pretending to be a Vulcan really a Secret Romulan (as opposed to a Secret Romulan)?
Will Picard ever get a ship?
Who is the nice woman by the rocks where Kirk died?


----------



## Mallus

FitzTheRuke said:


> I want it to turn out that the Romulans were "fracking" their own star and caused the supernova... because you'd think an advanced space-faring race would have hundreds of years (at least) to plan for their star going supernova...



I like the idea of star-fracking. Works well with what we know about Romulan technology in the TNG-era, ie their warships are powered by artificial singularities, which implies the requisite technologies to really eff-up a sun.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> Well... sort of.
> 
> I mean, if you have several hundred worlds in your empire, for several centuries, you can't really help but accumulate massive amounts of capital.  Yet, the humans, in a tiny fraction of the time, have gone from being bound on one planet to running an interstellar federation that is the largest, most powerful political body in the quadrant.
> 
> It's not really all that plausible.  It works because we tend to ignore it.  And, well, it fits nicely within colonialist attitudes.  Anybody that's not us is just a bunch of barbarians and ignorant savages incapable of doing things right.  Vulcans are far more advanced, totally based on logic yet, every seven years their males fight each other to the death in order to procreate.    You'd think a technologically superior race based on logic might, oh, I dunno, figure out some sort of medication for this?
> 
> Klingons are so busy being drunk barbarians that they never actually get around to developing anything?  Really?  Centuries old empire of hundreds of worlds, and their technological development is so stunted that we catch up in a generation?
> 
> So on and so forth.  Humans rule because, well, we're humans watching the show and if it was even remotely realistic (humans being relagated to third world status, totally dependent on the hand outs from more technologically developed races), the show would be too depressing to watch.




I know it's not Star Trek, but I like Londo Mollari's comment from Babylon 5; Humans make communities. The Federation is a large group of very different species, working largely toward common goals. The other interstellar empires are exactly that; empires of subjugated species. The Vulcans didn't have the drive to explore. The Tellarites and Andorians spent most of their time killing each other, even after joining the Federation. I don't think that humanity really sticks out much, in the fabric of the Star Trek universe except for that tendency to build communities, that the other species seem to lack.

Oh, and if FASA is to be believed, much more luck than the rest of the universe seems to have


----------



## Mallus

Truth Seeker said:


> That will be challenging for any advance space faring race to do, but there's a indication (could be wrong), but they knew this was happening in advance.



Even with 2 (Earth) years warning, that's still the need to move an average of 1.2 million people per day out of the Romulus system. What's the largest fleet size ever mentioned in an episode or movie prior to Picard?



> And yes, the Federation is advance with great diversity of science from it members worlds, but as it was shown also, it looks like that the Romulans were very advanced in the tech themselves and kept a lot of it, hidden.



I was thinking specifically of industrial replicator technology, which the Federation has more of/better than their rivals (or at least the Cardassians). It's implied that's one of the Federation's strengths - though we see in Picard there's still a lot of manual/artificial manual labor involved in starship construction. You can't just beam one into existence from a pile of raw materials. 



> So...who was greater, the Federation under a two hundred years plus of birth, or a Empire, who was around for a few thousand years?



This is hard to answer. Romulan civilization split off from Vulcan around 2,000 years before the shows. As originally described, they didn't have warp drive until some point after the start of TOS (their ship in "Balance of Terror" is a sub-light vehicle). Going by that for most of its existence, the "Romulan Star Empire" is really, really small.

This gets retconned (wisely) in ENT, giving them around warp 5 (which may or not = 125c) capability a few decades prior to TOS (or maybe longer, it's undefined). But they're still biologically Vulcans, meaning their birth rate is kinda... low. So even though the Romulans are described as expansionist, we don't see much description of what that entails territory or population-wise. All we really have is their hostile relationship with the Fed and the contested border.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

One of the things with Romulans, is they're so secretive that no one (in the federation, or us audiences) ever knows exactly what they have or are capable of.

That sub-light ship in TOS could easily have been some kind of ruse/lie/misdirection.


----------



## Beleriphon

Janx said:


> Who is the nice woman by the rocks where Kirk died?




And fought the Gorn.


----------



## MarkB

Beleriphon said:


> And fought the Gorn.



And where Bill and Ted met their untimely end.


----------



## Beleriphon

MarkB said:


> And where Bill and Ted met their untimely end.




I forgot that, but the opening shot of the little shuttle thing landing immediately reminded me it was from the TOS episode _Arena._ That can't be an accident.


----------



## bloodtide

The twin daughters of DataLore just fit storywise.  Chances are Bruce Maddox at least got to look at dead Lore at least once (or more likely stole a positron or something).  After all, one does wonder IF Data knew about anything or gave help to Bruce?  Or was Bruce doing it mostly on his own?

I'd guess the Romulans did not have the ability to evacuate Romulus.  Sure they have a massive war fleet, but not like massive cargo and passenger ships.  It's the old US/Soviet Union thing again.


----------



## Dire Bare

Beleriphon said:


> I forgot that, but the opening shot of the little shuttle thing landing immediately reminded me it was from the TOS episode _Arena._ That can't be an accident.




It's not an accident and is very much a deliberate easter egg. Wil Wheaton and the showrunner, Akiva Goldsman, talk about it on "Ready Room", the official after-show (2nd episode, of course).

Here you go:


----------



## GreyLord

I have only seen the first episode thus far, but just a thought.

Why would it need to be Data's DNA or whatever, why not his daughters?  She shut down, but they had the entirety of everything else of hers, it is feasible they even had a positronic neuron or whatever it is from her.

Her name is also similar to the one that (at least seems to be) deceased now.


----------



## trappedslider

well, i timed my free trial right,watched episodes one and two and three is on thrusday,so it's with-in the free window. I'm mainly waiting for a purchase to clear my account before I make a choice on actually subbing to CBS all access or not. But I have liked what i've seen.


----------



## Morrus

Hussar said:


> Klingons are so busy being drunk barbarians that they never actually get around to developing anything?  Really?  Centuries old empire of hundreds of worlds, and their technological development is so stunted that we catch up in a generation?




Yup. We're talking about a civilization which independently developed faster-than-light starships and teleporters. There's nothing stunted about them!

(So did the Gorn for that matter).


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Janx said:


> No.  Diseases, Deaths and Divorces on Page 1.  Popping the "and he's got cancer" late in the game is considered crap writing.  I've been studying this stuff.



Actually, Picard's brain tumour was established in the final episode of TNG. So this is neither, it's just good continuity.


----------



## Morrus

Picard was diagnosed with Irumodic Syndrome (or whatever it's called) back in the TV show. It was a big plot point of the final episode.

(ninja'd!)


----------



## Nagol

Morrus said:


> Yup. We're talking about a civilization which independently developed faster-than-light starships and teleporters. There's nothing stunted about them!
> 
> (So did the Gorn for that matter).




They've stunted since though.  It's like a nation that developed cars 100 years ago and still uses Ford Model-A designs.  During the TOS and TNG runs, they were presented as contemporary civilizations so having the similar power, transport, and combat systems made sense.

Now that they are more like an ancient culture who've had such tech for centuries (I think STE started that IIRC), they're more like a stunted remnant.


----------



## Morrus

Nagol said:


> They've stunted since though.  It's like a nation that developed cars 100 years ago and still uses Ford Model-A designs.  During the TOS and TNG runs, they were presented as contemporary civilizations so having the similar power, transport, and combat systems made sense.
> 
> Now that they are more like an ancient culture who've had such tech for centuries (I think STE started that IIRC), they're more like a stunted remnant.



Have they? I'm not saying that's not true, but Klingons having had FTL travel for much longer than humans isn't Trek lore I'm personally familiar with.


----------



## Nagol

Morrus said:


> Have they? I'm not saying that's not true, but Klingons having had FTL travel for much longer than humans isn't Trek lore I'm personally familiar with.




In Enterprise, when Archer first runs into them, they are a centuries-old warrior culture known as raiders.

In Discovery, Vulcan had contact with Klingons and skirmished enough to develop the "Vulcan hello" (i.e. shoot on sight) as a tradition.

Klingons have had an empire since about 900 AD when Kahless united the various factions.

As an aside, the Vulcan hello seems like it would be a stupid response to develop to deal with a combat-revering warrior race.  Wouldn't they take that as a challenge and a worthy enemy?


----------



## Morrus

Nagol said:


> Klingons have had an empire since about 900 AD when Kahless united the various factions.



Hmm. Well if that’s the case then yeah, they should be over a thousand years ahead of the Federation.


----------



## Mallus

Vulcan starflight is even older. The schism and exodus from Vulcan that led to the founding of Romulan civilization happened somewhere around 300 - 500 AD. And some species didn't develop warp drive on their own, despite being old civilizations otherwise on par with the other starfaring species, ie the Ferengi had to buy warp technology.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Truth Seeker said:


> Got a bigger question, given how big the Romulan empire is as remembered. Why didn't the Romulan government did the rescue themselves, they got the ships, they got the worlds, and if as stated from the series, the condition of the sun beforehand, and it sounds like it was. The Romulan government could have taken care of that on their own.
> 
> As for Starfleet, it has been pointed out, when things get wonky...they look to get out of it. This behavior was present in all previous Tv series and movies.



Well, we know they asked the Federation for help, so I conclude that they did not have the ships.They had ships, but not enough.
I am not entirely sure the figure of 900 Million people is how many they had in total on the planet, or is how many they couldn't evacuate on their own.

A thing to keep in mind about the Romulan Star Empire is that they rely heavily on cloaked ships. Their individual ships don't seem weaker than the ships Starfleet has, so if they were equal-sized in fleet, there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to steamroll them, because with cloak, they can decide to only engage at weak spots and their target must spread its resources to be ready for attacks at any spot in their space.
But they never even try, they always use rely on subterfuge.
And in Yesterday's Enterprise alternate timeline, we see that they were overrun by the Klingons - decades after the Praxis incident, which put the Klingon Empire in a weakened state, so weak that they needed peace, and even an alliance, with the Federation to manage.

So my take is - the Romulan Empire doesn't have a huge fleet at its disposal, at least not compared to the Federation or the Klingon Empire. They use cloak to only strike when they see a huge opportunity open up. They cannot afford a prolonged war, however, because they can't defend their Empire once an enemy goes really on the offensive and is willing to sacrifice some worlds.
Their strategy works for them most of the time.. But when it comes to evacuating a planet, it's not about tactics or strategy, it's about raw numbers.



> This has ALWAYS been the problem with Star Trek.  You have all these different races that have been space faring for centuries, if not millennia before the humans get out there, and, yet, in a very short span of time, not only have the humans caught up with everyone, they've flat out surpassed most of them.  It doesn't stand up to a moment of scrutiny and it's one of those things you just have to completely ignore in the show.



But it's not just the humans that's catching up to everyone. It's the Federation. I think the humans are maybe the magic glue that makes the Federation work, and the result is multiple races working together. It allowed them the Federation to overcome challenges that had stumped individual races for centuries or millenia, but once you mix the different viewpoints and approaches of the different species, you can overcome more problems than ever.  When your Vulcan gets stuck on his logic, a Tellarite's temperament might make him take a seemingly illogical step and find an unexpected solution, but the Tellarite might just get too frustrated with a very complex and involved math problem that he has to really think through from all the angles and requires an incredible amount of other math problems to be discovered, where a Vulcan logic and patience might allow him to go systematically through it all.

At least that's my take.


----------



## MarkB

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> But it's not just the humans that's catching up to everyone. It's the Federation. I think the humans are maybe the magic glue that makes the Federation work, and the result is multiple races working together. It allowed them the Federation to overcome challenges that had stumped individual races for centuries or millenia, but once you mix the different viewpoints and approaches of the different species, you can overcome more problems than ever.  When your Vulcan gets stuck on his logic, a Tellarite's temperament might make him take a seemingly illogical step and find an unexpected solution, but the Tellarite might just get too frustrated with a very complex and involved math problem that he has to really think through from all the angles and requires an incredible amount of other math problems to be discovered, where a Vulcan logic and patience might allow him to go systematically through it all.
> 
> At least that's my take.



That, and you've got dozens of different species that have all developed advanced technologies independently, probably taking quite different routes to get there, and they all get to share their scientific insights with each other relatively freely. That's bound to result in some unusual synergies, and probably significantly faster advances than more singular cultures.


----------



## Ryujin

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> But it's not just the humans that's catching up to everyone. It's the Federation. I think the humans are maybe the magic glue that makes the Federation work, and the result is multiple races working together. It allowed them the Federation to overcome challenges that had stumped individual races for centuries or millenia, but once you mix the different viewpoints and approaches of the different species, you can overcome more problems than ever.  When your Vulcan gets stuck on his logic, a Tellarite's temperament might make him take a seemingly illogical step and find an unexpected solution, but the Tellarite might just get too frustrated with a very complex and involved math problem that he has to really think through from all the angles and requires an incredible amount of other math problems to be discovered, where a Vulcan logic and patience might allow him to go systematically through it all.
> 
> At least that's my take.




Have you seen "Prelude to Axanar"? In it Richard Hatch, playing the Klingon Commander Karn, has a rather nice line about fighting The Federation during the Four Years War. "One never knew who you were fighting and knowing one's enemy is the first rule of war."


----------



## Hussar

Again, sure, I can see it, kind of.  Except that you've got things like the Klingons, who have the resources of hundreds of worlds - including numerous vassal races - for a thousand years before the humans first moon shot.  
Yet, Klingon ships are significantly less advanced than human ships.  Note, sure, the Enterprise is a Federation ship, but, it was built by humans.  None of the other federation races had empires even remotely the size of what the Klingons controlled.  

So on and so forth.  It's so ingrained into the basis of the show that it's almost never questioned - of _course_ humans are just as advanced as everyone else.  We're obviously smarter, more creative, and better than everyone else, so, of course we're on the top of the heap.  

It's an attitude that you find in genre fiction all the time.  It's such a part of genre fiction that it doesn't get questioned, it's just assumed to be true.


----------



## Khelon Testudo

I think a founding assumption of Star Trek is that treating others as equals rather than vassals is going to invite synergies you wouldn't otherwise get.


----------



## Sadras

...And that is why Gygax had the U in the column for class level limits for humans meanwhile practically everyone else was stunted.


----------



## Nagol

Hussar said:


> Again, sure, I can see it, kind of.  Except that you've got things like the Klingons, who have the resources of hundreds of worlds - including numerous vassal races - for a thousand years before the humans first moon shot.
> Yet, Klingon ships are significantly less advanced than human ships.  Note, sure, the Enterprise is a Federation ship, but, it was built by humans.  None of the other federation races had empires even remotely the size of what the Klingons controlled.
> 
> So on and so forth.  It's so ingrained into the basis of the show that it's almost never questioned - of _course_ humans are just as advanced as everyone else.  We're obviously smarter, more creative, and better than everyone else, so, of course we're on the top of the heap.
> 
> It's an attitude that you find in genre fiction all the time.  It's such a part of genre fiction that it doesn't get questioned, it's just assumed to be true.




It's an assumption that's crept in over the decades. 

TOS had a stronger implication that humans reached space by themselves and had a bit of a rocky start (war with the Romulans).  The humans were able to cobble together the Federation from the individual worlds that they found had spaceflight, but were working alone.   The Klingons were another expansionistic culture with a growing border with the Federation. More a Soviet stand-in than a Mongol horde.

TNG introduced the origins of the Kahless about 1500 years prior.  I think TNG was also the point where it was stated/implied Shakespeare was a shipwrecked Klingon, but that might have been DS9.

STE introduced the Klingons as _the_ major power in space (belligerent but passive/seeking good fights) and having D6/D7 style craft already.


----------



## GreyLord

It's not necessarily the age of the empire, sometimes it's just luck of inventions.  A prime example in our real world would be China compared to Europe.

China was technologically more advanced then Europe for centuries, but within a few decades Europe not only caught up but far surpassed China in the late 19th and 20th centuries.  

Sometimes Empires stagnate, especially when they are dealing with a lot of infighting (China and Asia at times) within their own Empires and not really dealing with threats beyond their own borders...while other newcomers (Europe, North America) are eagerly chomping at the bit trying to catch up and eventually surpass the ones who were originally ahead.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> Again, sure, I can see it, kind of.  Except that you've got things like the Klingons, who have the resources of hundreds of worlds - including numerous vassal races - for a thousand years before the humans first moon shot.
> Yet, Klingon ships are significantly less advanced than human ships.  Note, sure, the Enterprise is a Federation ship, but, it was built by humans.  None of the other federation races had empires even remotely the size of what the Klingons controlled.
> 
> So on and so forth.  It's so ingrained into the basis of the show that it's almost never questioned - of _course_ humans are just as advanced as everyone else. We're obviously smarter, more creative, and better than everyone else, so, of course we're on the top of the heap.
> 
> It's an attitude that you find in genre fiction all the time.  It's such a part of genre fiction that it doesn't get questioned, it's just assumed to be true.




Resources are one thing, certainly, but slaves don't innovate. 

As stated in my above posted video, it's long been canon that ships tended to be crewed largely by a single race, though the classes of ship seemed to be across all of the major Federation contributing races. (Pity that the Four Years War is no longer canon.) The Intrepid, for example, was a Constitution Class starship, like Enterprise, but was crewed entirely by Vulcans. "Our" shows tend to follow human ships, because we're (mostly at least  ) human but you have Vulcan shield technology, Andorian phasers, Tellarite engines...... The best of all races' tech goes into the ships used by all. A rising tide lifts all boats.

And, "If words were water, the Humans would drown us all."


----------



## bloodtide

Episode Three is out...

Another flashback...where Picard whines about Starfleet being changed.  Seems like bad whinning writing.  Guess the folks running the show just want us to believe "Starfleet has changed", when it is in fact PICARD that has changed.  

And the  ''action" of old Picard vs the assassins...really?   Yea, I know his housekeepers are ninja demi gods, but really?  

Oh, and look....Hugh.


----------



## cbwjm

It was another great episode, shows that Starfleet has some weak leadership. Picard is definitely slowing down, looks like they are purposely showing that he's getting old rather than just Sir Patrick Stewart getting old. I'm liking the assembling of a ragtag crew, Raffi and her love/hate feelings toward Picard. As much as she blames him for losing her job in star fleet she can't help but help him. Now they also know that Commodore Oh is corrupt, I expect she'll have her comeuppance at some point.

I'm looking forward to the next episode.


----------



## Mallus

My first reaction to the third episode is: I would totally watch a series that's just Picard and his two alien ninja housekeepers running the vineyard. Mostly slice-of-future-French-life, with the occasional episode where Jean-Luc's former friends and enemies drop by. Like one where Q shows up and forces Picard to go fox-hunting, but the fox is really a transmogrified Mr. Worf.

"Captain, I protest! I am not... prey". Seriously, "The Fantastic Mr. Worf-Fox" is guaranteed Emmy-bait.

Anyway, they're finally in space and Picard finally said the magic word. I'm a little unclear about what Soji's official job is - creating a new culture for the freed Borg using her cultural anthro PhD skills? Is that right? Loved the Romulan Tarot deck, which of course has a Soji/Dahj card. Also loved the multiple emergency hologram assists with different exaggerated accents.

Didn't really need to see a blade protruding from Rios. That needed to be either more or less absurd.

edit: is it next Thursday yet?


----------



## MarkB

I was surprised they were sloppy enough to leave the Romulan prisoner with his acidic suicide capsule. Picard's literally seen one of them used before, to kill Dahj, and given Laris and Zhaban's background, they should probably know the stuff's exact chemical formula, and which molar or surgically-implanted cheek pouch it's typically stored in.


----------



## bloodtide

The good guys always act dumb to advance the plot, otherwise Laris and Zhaban would have pulled out some super advanced Romulan tech and removed the acid bomb AND read the guys mind.

The Tarot deck, which of course has a Soji/Dahj card "What Twin are you?"  See another clue.  Two twins...light/dark, good/evil....DATA/LORE.  After all if they were both perfect good angel daughters of Data there would be no story.

So what about the income inequality?  In the 24th century with no money.  Billionaire Picard owns a huge villa and a vineyard.  Poor Raffi lives in a double wide Fed-Trailer with polyester curtains and a redwood deck.  But WHY?  Does not everyone on 24th century Earth get a mansion if they want one?  Plus like a billion square miles of land?  

And Rios Solo is around Earth.....and he is one of them greedy, dirty Fergengi-like money humans.  Except there is no money in the Federation......right?  So, how does he ''get paied"  ?  Even if he gets money, where and how does he spend it?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

bloodtide said:


> So what about the income inequality?  In the 24th century with no money.  Billionaire Picard owns a huge villa and a vineyard.  Poor Raffi lives in a double wide Fed-Trailer with polyester curtains and a redwood deck.  But WHY?  Does not everyone on 24th century Earth get a mansion if they want one?  Plus like a billion square miles of land?
> 
> And Rios Solo is around Earth.....and he is one of them greedy, dirty Fergengi-like money humans.  Except there is no money in the Federation......right?  So, how does he ''get paied"  ?  Even if he gets money, where and how does he spend it?




I have similar questions. I don't mind them coming up with reasons, I can imagine quite a few possibilities, but I hope it's not just a matter of "it's more fun to write stories with money troubles and scoundrels."


----------



## GreyLord

bloodtide said:


> The good guys always act dumb to advance the plot, otherwise Laris and Zhaban would have pulled out some super advanced Romulan tech and removed the acid bomb AND read the guys mind.
> 
> The Tarot deck, which of course has a Soji/Dahj card "What Twin are you?"  See another clue.  Two twins...light/dark, good/evil....DATA/LORE.  After all if they were both perfect good angel daughters of Data there would be no story.
> 
> So what about the income inequality?  In the 24th century with no money.  Billionaire Picard owns a huge villa and a vineyard.  Poor Raffi lives in a double wide Fed-Trailer with polyester curtains and a redwood deck.  But WHY?  Does not everyone on 24th century Earth get a mansion if they want one?  Plus like a billion square miles of land?
> 
> And Rios Solo is around Earth.....and he is one of them greedy, dirty Fergengi-like money humans.  Except there is no money in the Federation......right?  So, how does he ''get paied"  ?  Even if he gets money, where and how does he spend it?




Perhaps it comes down to choice.

I know if I had the choice between Picard's mansion, and something else, I'd probably choose something a little smaller.

I'd probably not choose a double wide trailer, but I don't need a HUGE house or mansion.  In fact, given the right circumstances, if I were living on my own, a decent apartment with one bedroom, a restroom, and a main kitchen/living room area (so, 3 rooms total) could be enough.


----------



## MarkB

I got the impression that Raffi was living at least somewhat 'off the grid', to whatever extent that's possible on 24th century Earth. Picard takes a taxi to visit her rather than beaming in, and her 'medicinal' plants probably aren't strictly legal.

I suspect we'll see greater challenges to the whole "no money" concept next episode, since it looks like this Freecloud place is some kind of casino, based on the logo Raffi pulls up.


----------



## MarkB

Regarding "androids versus artificial life in general", we again see in episode 3 that the Federation's focus seems at once too narrow and too broad. Raffi's plan in the flashback for crewing the mothballed starships hinges upon using synthetics, so clearly there was a larger labour force in existence beyond those on Mars - but by the time they present their plan, the Federation has already ordered all of those synthetics disassembled (so I guess that's a "yes" to the "synth genocide?" question).

Picard is told that the flaw which caused the synths to go rogue is something specific - a "fatal code error in the operating system" - and yet the ban isn't on any specific model, or even on that operating system, it's on all synthetic beings.

But on the other hand, that clearly still only applies to artificial intelligences that are dressed up in a functional humanoid chassis. The ban is still in effect in the present day, but despite that, the sight of holographic medical staff with clearly highly developed and opinionated personalities doesn't even raise an eyebrow.


----------



## Ryujin

If I wanted to be left alone then a prefab at Vasquez Rocks might be a choice that I'd make.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Ryujin said:


> If I wanted to be left alone then a prefab at Vasquez Rocks might be a choice that I'd make.




Sure. But then why complain at Picard as if it is some sort of injustice? I suppose it could have been a bit of "Look at what you made me do!"

(As if Picard made her make poor life decisions).

Come to think of it, if she were a good officer (and I can't imagine she wasn't, if she worked that closely with Picard) then why did they fire her? How was that his fault?


----------



## Truth Seeker

FitzTheRuke said:


> Well, I wouldn't say I necessarily "want" a twin-moment... I just think it's possible that they're suggesting it.
> 
> Here's another idea to go with it: *Was B4 really originally dumber than Data/Lore, or did his evil twin damage him? Maybe they've always been Cain and Able*?




B4 was the firs stage of development, followed by Lore and then DATA, which resulted in Juliana, Soong's replicated dead wife.

And I have to update on the theory of the wife--it was detailed later, she had divorced and remarried from Soong, because of his continued/Obsession with android building. She was given a set date to expire. Her build was the ultimate completion of Soong's work. She had the means to fool sensors on bio readings. She can sweat, cry and whatever other actions to pass as human. If DATA never spoke of her to anyone, she initially disappeared into obscurity. I would be surprised if a mention of her is brought up.


----------



## Truth Seeker

bloodtide said:


> *The twin daughters of DataLore just fit storywise.*  Chances are Bruce Maddox at least got to look at dead Lore at least once (or more likely stole a positron or something).  After all, one does wonder IF Data knew about anything or gave help to Bruce?  Or was Bruce doing it mostly on his own?
> 
> *I'd guess the Romulans did not have the ability to evacuate Romulus*.  Sure they have a massive war fleet, but not like massive cargo and passenger ships.  It's the old US/Soviet Union thing again.




Until it comes out that they are their 'daughters', Bruce got the parental rights. LOL!!!!

It been slowly suggested now, that the reason Romulans asked for help, the evacuation was more than one planet, it looks to be they had more habit planets in their solar system. The plot point on how many ships they had is simply a head scratcher and lets leave it at that.


----------



## Ryujin

FitzTheRuke said:


> Sure. But then why complain at Picard as if it is some sort of injustice? I suppose it could have been a bit of "Look at what you made me do!"
> 
> (As if Picard made her make poor life decisions).
> 
> Come to think of it, if she were a good officer (and I can't imagine she wasn't, if she worked that closely with Picard) then why did they fire her? How was that his fault?




Because her notoriety for having worked with Picard makes it necessary that she drop off the map, to have any life at all?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Okay---as a SPOILER thread, this is coming down the pike. Jonathan Frakes  directs Eps #4 and #5. Any further references of Star Trek Prime showings _ships or whatever_ are getting reduced. Kurtzman has cut back on that to reduce the costs of 'renting' imageries of said main IP. 

If I were to rate the first 3 showings of STP, all of them will get *4 out of 10.* The editing is sloppy, switching out cutscenes were terrible. The constant mistakes on costumes appearances are just...well. The constant teardown on Picard by women is getting old. Dialogue is so 21st century and the clothing in some scenes.  And the pacing...has not been fluid.

The constant feel I get, it is like watching a soap opera...like no, TREK is not suppose to be like that.

And the butt kicker to take the prize. What the frell with those Glasses on a Vulcan.??! In daylight...


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> I got the impression that Raffi was living at least somewhat 'off the grid', to whatever extent that's possible on 24th century Earth. Picard takes a taxi to visit her rather than beaming in, and her 'medicinal' plants probably aren't strictly legal.
> 
> I suspect we'll see greater challenges to the whole "no money" concept next episode, since it looks like this Freecloud place is some kind of casino, based on the logo Raffi pulls up.




She lost all her coverage from Starfleet, which mean her health insurance. A another direct poke on our reality. _sigh_


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> She lost all her coverage from Starfleet, which mean her health insurance. A another direct poke on our reality. _sigh_



That wasn't mentioned in the show. It's literally something you just made up in your own head, specifically so you could complain about it.


----------



## aramis erak

Morrus said:


> Original timeline, yep.



They did not label it "`Original" but "Prime"...


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> That wasn't mentioned in the show. It's literally something you just made up in your own head, specifically so you could complain about it.




Actually no, not made up or it is a complaint, just look to how she is living. To broaden the scope, the near mention of 'wealth' is also a direct dig on the privilege of those who has such luxuries, is straight out from our world. And her vaping, the same thing. None of that is a complaint but a observation...on the writing.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Truth Seeker said:


> Any further references of Star Trek Prime showings _ships or whatever_ are getting reduced. Kurtzman has cut back on that to reduce the costs of 'renting' imageries of said main IP.




Where are you getting your legal stuff from? I assume your two thoughts (Frakes directing & Kurtzman cutting back) don't have anything to do with each other.



Truth Seeker said:


> If I were to rate the first 3 showings of STP, all of them will get *4 out of 10.*




C'mon, the first two were way better than the third one (though I liked all three better than you did).



Truth Seeker said:


> What the frell with those Glasses on a Vulcan.??! In daylight...




When was that? I'm not sure I've even seen any vulcans. I mean, Commodore Oh is supposed to be Vulcan, but who believes that? She's clearly a Romulan. I don't remember seeing a Vulcan with glasses.



Truth Seeker said:


> To broaden the scope, the near mention of 'wealth' is also a direct dig on the privilege of those who has such luxuries, is straight out from our world. And her vaping, the same thing.




I think you're right about that. Star Trek has always been a soapbox to talk about current politics. Usually it's used to have hope for the future, that it will turn out better. Lately it's been more cynical, like everything's gonna turn out to be just the same...


----------



## Mallus

FitzTheRuke said:


> Come to think of it, if she were a good officer (and I can't imagine she wasn't, if she worked that closely with Picard) then why did they fire her? How was that his fault?



One reason immediately comes to mind: politics.


----------



## trappedslider

Truth Seeker said:


> Any further references of Star Trek Prime showings _ships or whatever_ are getting reduced. Kurtzman has cut back on that to reduce the costs of 'renting' imageries of said main IP.



Given your name, i think it would be fitting if you included links to back you up. Unless your user name is just an attempt at irony....


----------



## Beleriphon

bloodtide said:


> So what about the income inequality?  In the 24th century with no money.  Billionaire Picard owns a huge villa and a vineyard.  Poor Raffi lives in a double wide Fed-Trailer with polyester curtains and a redwood deck.  But WHY?  Does not everyone on 24th century Earth get a mansion if they want one?  Plus like a billion square miles of land?
> 
> And Rios Solo is around Earth.....and he is one of them greedy, dirty Fergengi-like money humans.  Except there is no money in the Federation......right?  So, how does he ''get paied"  ?  Even if he gets money, where and how does he spend it?




The Federation is a post scarcity society, in part due to replicator technology. They do use "money" internally in the form of Federation credits. Most member worlds use currency in some form or another, and all of them are pegged to the Fedaration credit, which means they have an easy means of trade between each other and other cultures.

Recall from the TOS that Kirk tries to get people to sell him, I think dilitium, but they wont accept money they want food. Uhura was able to buy Tribbles with some kind of currency. In a post-scarcity society you can still have currency, but it doesn't buy you necessities it buys you luxury. Thus Picard sells the wine because it is a luxury good, and why anybody can replicate win, you need to trade something for a Chateau Picard 2386. The easiest thing to trade is currency.

Riker in TNG acts confused about being paid to be a Starfleet officer, which seems odd. I suspect the actual intent is that he's telling the person he isn't in Starfleet because it pays well, but because he wants to be doing Starfleety things. Riker knows what gold-press latinum is, and even haggles with Quark over it some of the cross-over episodes.

So on Earth, the only reason people live the way they do is because they choose to do so.


----------



## Truth Seeker

trappedslider said:


> Given your name, i think it would be fitting if you included links to back you up. *Unless your user name is just an attempt at irony....*


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Beleriphon said:


> So on Earth, the only reason people live the way they do is because they choose to do so.




So if she chooses to live that way, why does she give Picard a hard time about it? I'm guessing that it's because she would rather be in Starfleet, but she doesn't have that choice, so she blames him for the choices she made with limited options.


----------



## bloodtide

Mpney has always been a problem for Star Trek.   They want a money less future society....but then the average dumb writer can't get past making a story with money.  

And as Picard is all about ''modern politics" it will be even worse.


----------



## Beleriphon

FitzTheRuke said:


> So if she chooses to live that way, why does she give Picard a hard time about it? I'm guessing that it's because she would rather be in Starfleet, but she doesn't have that choice, so she blames him for the choices she made with limited options.




Politics, as mentioned. Raffi doesn't have to live really there. A lot of the plot there is more that she blames Picard for ruining her career.

As for moneyless, the Federation isn't without money, it is without the desire for the accumulation of wealth. Since an accumulation of wealth doesn't get you anything that isn't already available.


----------



## Morrus

bloodtide said:


> And as Picard is all about ''modern politics"




Welcome to _Star Trek_. Have you not met? What did _you_ think the show has always been about?


----------



## bloodtide

Morrus said:


> Welcome to _Star Trek_. Have you not met? What did _you_ think the show has always been about?




Well, how about:  "Star Trek is about optimism and hope. Star Trek is about the dream that one day humanity can rise above and transcend it’s petty differences, it’s petty squabbles and rise above hatred and war and ignorance and superstition and together, in peace, we can reach for the stars. "

And "
It is about the hope that tolerance, understanding, peace, and the thirst for betterment in all aspects of existence will overcome stupidity and hatred and fear.
It is a celebration of humanity, the purest exploration in fiction of the ideals of humanism, _writ large_.
It shows us finally tempering the acquisition of knowledge with our noblest impulses. It is about race, gender, greed, religious and creedal division being overcome and pushed aside as humanity reaches it’s true potential for greatness."

See now compare to 2020 Trek that is "I hate Trump and will vet on my TV show!"


----------



## Morrus

bloodtide said:


> See now compare to 2020 Trek that is "I hate Trump and will vet on my TV show!"



Ah, right. Gotcha. It’s only talking about politics when it criticises _your_ politics. 

Also, don’t talk about politics on this site. The rules are clear about that. Thanks.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I don't think Picard is any _more_ political than Star Trek usually is, though it might seem so because of how divisive current politics can be. (Or does that count as talking about politics? I guess it might, so I'll quit there.)

How 'bout them Kingons? Think we'll see Worf this season?


----------



## MarkB

bloodtide said:


> Well, how about:  "Star Trek is about optimism and hope. Star Trek is about the dream that one day humanity can rise above and transcend it’s petty differences, it’s petty squabbles and rise above hatred and war and ignorance and superstition and together, in peace, we can reach for the stars. "
> 
> And "
> It is about the hope that tolerance, understanding, peace, and the thirst for betterment in all aspects of existence will overcome stupidity and hatred and fear.
> It is a celebration of humanity, the purest exploration in fiction of the ideals of humanism, _writ large_.
> It shows us finally tempering the acquisition of knowledge with our noblest impulses. It is about race, gender, greed, religious and creedal division being overcome and pushed aside as humanity reaches it’s true potential for greatness."
> 
> See now compare to 2020 Trek that is "I hate Trump and will vet on my TV show!"



You really think the 60s show wasn't just as direct in addressing the politics of its era?


----------



## Zardnaar

There's political and then in your face beat you over the head with it political. 

 Picard's not there yet. 

 Another difference is is it occasionally or every episode? 

 DS9 had Sisko as a writer in 60s America and it was a really good episode one of the best of the series. 

 Subtlety, moderation and execution bare key IMHO.


----------



## Vael

My read on Raffi is that she was a problem child officer. Her use of snakeleaf, as she said, wasn't new, so she was doing so while being a commissioned officer. So, one of those brilliant, but troubled types. Serving under Picard granted her a degree of protection, had they not met, I imagine Raffi either would've been stuck at a more junior rank or kicked out. And once Picard resigned ...


----------



## Ryujin

Zardnaar said:


> There's political and then in your face beat you over the head with it political.
> 
> Picard's not there yet.
> 
> Another difference is is it occasionally or every episode?
> 
> DS9 had Sisko as a writer in 60s America and it was a really good episode one of the best of the series.
> 
> Subtlety, moderation and execution bare key IMHO.




Yup, even TOS had its "force the Federation's hand in doing the right thing" moments.


----------



## Hussar

One rather glaring plot hole though in Ep 3.  There's half a dozen very dead Romulan assassins in Picard's living room.  Wouldn't the smart thing be to call some attention to the fact that there are half a dozen dead Romulan assassins in his front room and a living witness to the "Vulcan" security officer questioning that doctor with the assassins showing up shortly after?  

And, frankly, what's going to happen to Picard's Romulan housekeepers when it is discovered that there are half a dozen dead Romulan assassins (I just like typing that) in the front room?

If nothing else, it's going to shine a great, big, huge, spotlight on the whole situation.  It is doubtful that an investigation wouldn't turn up the fact that our "Vulcan" security officer is, in fact, Romulan.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> One rather glaring plot hole though in Ep 3.  There's half a dozen very dead Romulan assassins in Picard's living room.  Wouldn't the smart thing be to call some attention to the fact that there are half a dozen dead Romulan assassins in his front room and a living witness to the "Vulcan" security officer questioning that doctor with the assassins showing up shortly after?
> 
> And, frankly, what's going to happen to Picard's Romulan housekeepers when it is discovered that there are half a dozen dead Romulan assassins (I just like typing that) in the front room?
> 
> If nothing else, it's going to shine a great, big, huge, spotlight on the whole situation.  It is doubtful that an investigation wouldn't turn up the fact that our "Vulcan" security officer is, in fact, Romulan.




Typical "don't know who you can trust" scenario.


----------



## Hussar

Ryujin said:


> Typical "don't know who you can trust" scenario.




Well, here is my prediction.  The good doctor is actually dead.  In her place, the Romulan agent (whose name I forget) has now inserted herself into the group.  My reasoning is this:

1.  Where did the doctor come from so conveniently?  And how did she shoot from outside with a Romulan disruptor?
2.  Why were the Romulan assassins so bad at their job?  
3.  We already know that Romulans can be altered pretty quickly.

So, sometime later in the season, it will be _gasp_ revealed that she is a Romulan spy!  Of course, Picard will already have figured this all out and will have some cunning plan in place to catch her in the reveal.


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> One rather glaring plot hole though in Ep 3.  There's half a dozen very dead Romulan assassins in Picard's living room.  Wouldn't the smart thing be to call some attention to the fact that there are half a dozen dead Romulan assassins in his front room and a living witness to the "Vulcan" security officer questioning that doctor with the assassins showing up shortly after?
> 
> And, frankly, what's going to happen to Picard's Romulan housekeepers when it is discovered that there are half a dozen dead Romulan assassins (I just like typing that) in the front room?
> 
> If nothing else, it's going to shine a great, big, huge, spotlight on the whole situation.  It is doubtful that an investigation wouldn't turn up the fact that our "Vulcan" security officer is, in fact, Romulan.



We know that the Romulan strike team forensically sterilised the sites of their last two operations, even after losing multiple team members, so the assumption would have to be that they intend to do likewise here. Raffi already advised that they had more trouble incoming imminently, presumably the cleaners.

I'm surprised that Laris and Zhaban didn't come aboard with Picard, but I'd guess they have their own plans. Perhaps if they summon enough local law enforcement soon enough, the covert ops types will back off, especially knowing that their primary targets are gone.


----------



## Raunalyn

Hussar said:


> Well, here is my prediction.  The good doctor is actually dead.  In her place, the Romulan agent (whose name I forget) has now inserted herself into the group.  My reasoning is this:
> 
> 1.  Where did the doctor come from so conveniently?  And how did she shoot from outside with a Romulan disruptor?
> 2.  Why were the Romulan assassins so bad at their job?
> 3.  We already know that Romulans can be altered pretty quickly.
> 
> So, sometime later in the season, it will be _gasp_ revealed that she is a Romulan spy!  Of course, Picard will already have figured this all out and will have some cunning plan in place to catch her in the reveal.



 Maybe they went to the Storm Trooper Sharpshooting academy?


----------



## Mort

Hussar said:


> One rather glaring plot hole though in Ep 3.  There's half a dozen very dead Romulan assassins in Picard's living room.  Wouldn't the smart thing be to call some attention to the fact that there are half a dozen dead Romulan assassins in his front room and a living witness to the "Vulcan" security officer questioning that doctor with the assassins showing up shortly after?
> 
> And, frankly, what's going to happen to Picard's Romulan housekeepers when it is discovered that there are half a dozen dead Romulan assassins (I just like typing that) in the front room?
> 
> If nothing else, it's going to shine a great, big, huge, spotlight on the whole situation.  It is doubtful that an investigation wouldn't turn up the fact that our "Vulcan" security officer is, in fact, Romulan.




This one got to me a bit. 

Sending a Romulan hit squad against a nobody - not a huge issue - though think about how surveillance is in our day having them go in and out unnoticed is a bit much (one of the assaults was in broad daylight) - but ok (they were being assisted by Starfleet intelligence).

But sending a Romulan hit squad after Picard at his home? On the outs with starfleet or not, Picard is a prominent, popular retired Starfleet Admiral. This is a big deal. Add in dead bodies and a likely recording of one of the Romulans give an explanation of what just happened (short and evasive but still) before offing himself - and you have a major, major incident. I suspect it will just completely glossed over in favor of the space mission - but it really shouldn't.


----------



## Raunalyn

Mort said:


> This one got to me a bit.
> 
> Sending a Romulan hit squad against a nobody - not a huge issue - though think about how surveillance is in our day having them go in and out unnoticed is a bit much (one of the assaults was in broad daylight) - but ok (they were being assisted by Starfleet intelligence).
> 
> But sending a Romulan hit squad after Picard at his home? On the outs with starfleet or not, Picard is a prominent, popular retired Starfleet Admiral. This is a big deal. Add in dead bodies and a likely recording of one of the Romulans give an explanation of what just happened (short and evasive but still) before offing himself - and you have a major, major incident. I suspect it will just completely glossed over in favor of the space mission - but it really shouldn't.




Maybe the point is that it was so blatant. It is already established that the Romulans were not accepted by the Federation. What if the assassination of a prominent and famous retired admiral is deliberate? It is plausible (think of Star Trek VI)


----------



## Mort

Raunalyn said:


> Maybe the point is that it was so blatant. It is already established that the Romulans were not accepted by the Federation. What if the assassination of a prominent and famous retired admiral is deliberate? It is plausible (think of Star Trek VI)




If that's the direction the show is going - that would certainly be interesting!


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Zardnaar said:


> There's political and then in your face beat you over the head with it political.



Yeah... beat over the head is really not a thing Star Trek could dare to do...



> Picard's not there yet.



Certainly not.


----------



## Mallus

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Yeah... beat over the head is really not a thing Star Trek could dare to do...



The funny thing about Picard so far is it's actually kinda... subtle. For Star Trek, at least. The admiral who dressed down Picard when he asked for a ship (using a beautiful swear, a perfect swear) was given a much stronger argument than is usually accorded to someone opposing one of the protagonists (esp. Jean-Luc).

The Federation did try to provide aid to the Romulans. A lot of it. Until it all went up in smoke (and debris) and they decided they wouldn't do more. And the reluctance to do more is contextualized by all the other responsibilities the Federation has to its members, which is part of the unusually reasonable argument the admiral lays into Jean-Luc with. 

There's more nuance to the set-up so far than I was expecting, as someone who grew up on reruns of "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield".


----------



## Umbran

Truth Seeker said:


> It been slowly suggested now, that the reason Romulans asked for help, the evacuation was more than one planet, it looks to be they had more habit planets in their solar system.




They specifically state that there are several habitable (and inhabited) worlds in the radius that would be impacted by the supernova.  That does not quite exactly mean they must be in the same solar system.

That said, in the movies they establish that there's Romulus... and Remus.

And, even if they only had one planet - moving _billions of people_ takes a whole lot of ships.  It isn't like entire civilizations are portable.


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> They specifically state that there are several habitable (and inhabited) worlds in the radius that would be impacted by the supernova.  That does not quite exactly mean they must be in the same solar system.
> 
> That said, in the movies they establish that there's Romulus... and Remus.
> 
> And, even if they only had one planet - moving _billions of people_ takes a whole lot of ships.  It isn't like entire civilizations are portable.



But wouldn’t the effects of a supernova would take years or decades to reach other systems? And they have warp drives. It seems like moving would be possible.


----------



## Umbran

Hussar said:


> One rather glaring plot hole though in Ep 3.  There's half a dozen very dead Romulan assassins in Picard's living room.  Wouldn't the smart thing be to call some attention to the fact that there are half a dozen dead Romulan assassins in his front room and a living witness to the "Vulcan" security officer questioning that doctor with the assassins showing up shortly after?




As if Star Fleet Security, which is apparently complicit in the Romulan presence, can't cover this up?


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> But wouldn’t the effects of a supernova would take years or decades to reach other systems? And they have warp drives. It seems like moving would be possible.




I'd take it that any supernova explosion will also have subspace effects, which would travel faster than light, and likely be ruinous to any advanced technology.  What happens to a Trek world when their replicators and transporters and shuttles stop working?


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> I'd take it that any supernova explosion will also have subspace effects, which would travel faster than light, and likely be ruinous to any advanced technology.  What happens to a Trek world when their replicators and transporters and shuttles stop working?



I dunno. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen starships operating just fine around black holes, exploding stars, all sorts of stuff!


----------



## Janx

Morrus said:


> But wouldn’t the effects of a supernova would take years or decades to reach other systems? And they have warp drives. It seems like moving would be possible.




It's probably like Y2K.  If we don't take this problem seriously and ramp up efforts to resolve it, horrible things will happen...   Or, if we build and prep ships now, we can stage an orderly evacuation and it won't seem like a big deal.

Also, is it just me, or in every space show, when they want to tell us a planet's population is in jeopardy, they tell us some paltry number like "thousands or millions of lives are at stake."

Our planet has seven BILLION people.  Obviously, a colony planet might not have fully settled a planet like that.  But main worlds?  Give me some numbers that reflect a reality we already live in, even if they didn't breed like bunnies, a developed world should probably have at least a billion people by now.


----------



## Morrus

Janx said:


> Our planet has seven BILLION people.  Obviously, a colony planet might not have fully settled a planet like that.  But main worlds?  Give me some numbers that reflect a reality we already live in, even if they didn't breed like bunnies, a developed world should probably have at least a billion people by now.



Sure. But a lot of them have cars.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> I dunno. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen starships operating just fine around black holes, exploding stars, all sorts of stuff!




Name a time when a star explodes, and the ship _doesn't_ run away at warp speed.  I can't think of any.  Every time a star explodes, the ship is having engine trouble, and must run away at maximum warp at the last second.  It's a trope.

Black holes are rleatively static objects.  Supernovae... aren't.  Not equivalent cases.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> I dunno. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen starships operating just fine around black holes, exploding stars, all sorts of stuff!




Sure, but it was established (even if pretty poorly written) in the movie where the concept first appeared, that THAT particular Supernova was unusual, in that Spock was worried that it "threatened to destroy the galaxy" (whatever THAT means - stars blow up in the galaxy all the time). This is one of many reasons why I think the Romulans were "fracking" their star - something weird was going on with it. Spock's little weird ship was supposed to be FAST, too, and he had trouble outrunning it.

Somewhere in Picard, I seem to recall someone saying something that made me calculate that they'd been working on the Evacuation for three years. That either means that the explosion wasn't too much FTL, or they had more warning than the movie suggested. Which they should have, if it was Romulus's star. They should have known for years/centuries that it was gonna go.

Of course, in the movie, Nero whined that the Federation did nothing to help. He also time-traveled to the past and as far as we know, did nothing himself, so his opinion is a bit suspect. He was nuts.


----------



## Hussar

Umbran said:


> As if Star Fleet Security, which is apparently complicit in the Romulan presence, can't cover this up?




It’s a bit much to think all of star fleet security is complicit though.


----------



## Hussar

It would be an interesting math exercise to calculate how fast you’d need to evacuate a planet to get ahead of birth rate, never minding the already born.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Hussar said:


> It would be an interesting math exercise to calculate how fast you’d need to evacuate a planet to get ahead of birth rate, never minding the already born.




Is it faster to land and load, or to beam everyone up (what is it, six at a time, per transporter room?) I expect a bit-of-both. Still would take forever, wouldn't it?


----------



## MarkB

As a logistical exercise, it's also far from trivial to find somewhere to put an entire planetary population after you've evacuated them. Several billion people being added to a planet's population is somewhere between an economic disaster and a de facto invasion, no matter how post-scarcity your economy is. And dispersing them across many worlds breaks up ethnic groups or even families, and requires even more journeys for your evacuation fleet.


----------



## Janx

MarkB said:


> As a logistical exercise, it's also far from trivial to find somewhere to put an entire planetary population after you've evacuated them. Several billion people being added to a planet's population is somewhere between an economic disaster and a de facto invasion, no matter how post-scarcity your economy is. And dispersing them across many worlds breaks up ethnic groups or even families, and requires even more journeys for your evacuation fleet.




Would it really be that hard to keep families together and large clusters of ethnic groups at this scale?  We're probably hauling out a hundred to a thousand people at a time, to specified planets.  Assuming you load up by family or regional lot, you'll end up at the same place.

It might be a different matter if it was 1-6 people at a time in ramshackle craft and going anywhere but here.


----------



## Zardnaar

I think in the Dominion War of get had a few thousand ships each one crewed by hundreds of people.

 Assuming they crammed in refugees to double that number or even triple it's a few million people pere trip using the entire fleet.

 I doubt they used the entire fleet.  Vietnam 75 is the closest irl equivalent.

 The main planet is screwed.


----------



## Morrus

Janx said:


> Would it really be that hard to keep families together and large clusters of ethnic groups at this scale?  We're probably hauling out a hundred to a thousand people at a time, to specified planets.




More than that. Squads of colony ships carrying 50,000 people each. A million at a time.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> More than that. Squads of colony ships carrying 50,000 people each. A million at a time.



And at those scales, under emergency conditions, you'll be lucky to even keep everyone identified, let alone sorted for placement. And that's even if you weren't dealing with a culture that embraces secrecy at every level, whose members have been taught their whole lives to distrust the Federation.


----------



## Janx

Morrus said:


> More than that. Squads of colony ships carrying 50,000 people each. A million at a time.




That makes it easier to keep communities together.  Sure, a few mixups are going to happen, but the squadron shows up, and we slurp up everybody in Alaska and take them to Planet X, return, and get Washington state, and lather, rinse repeat.  It's not like escaping Europe during WW2 in dribs and drabs by any means necessary.

Though at a million at a time, it's going to take 350 trips to scoop up everybody in America (based on last known population size I am aware of and not actual facts).

It's not a trivial operation.  And once the Federation halts the project, it will turn into a cluster-smurf as everybody in dribs and drabs tries to escape by any means necessary.

I have no idea how bad it would be for us if Alpha Centauri blew and the blast traveled at .1c, but 40 years from now there could rocks, radiation, emp, who knows what Umbran will tell us.  I imagine he'd have a better guestimate of speed so we could see if piddling around for 14 years like Starfleet would be ok.


----------



## Morrus

MarkB said:


> And at those scales, under emergency conditions, you'll be lucky to even keep everyone identified, let alone sorted for placement.



Well, it's better than being dead, right?


----------



## Morrus

Janx said:


> That makes it easier to keep communities together.  Sure, a few mixups are going to happen, but the squadron shows up, and we slurp up everybody in Alaska and take them to Planet X, return, and get Washington state, and lather, rinse repeat.  It's not like escaping Europe during WW2 in dribs and drabs by any means necessary.
> 
> Though at a million at a time, it's going to take 350 trips to scoop up everybody in America (based on last known population size I am aware of and not actual facts).




No, each squad is a million people. An Empire runs a thousand squads at a time, each going to a different planet.



MarkB said:


> And at those scales, under emergency conditions, you'll be lucky to even keep everyone identified, let alone sorted for placement. And that's even if you weren't dealing with a culture that embraces secrecy at every level, whose members have been taught their whole lives to distrust the Federation.




As for mixing people up -- if it's a choice between "we're all dead in a supernova now" or "on a planet elsewhere but might have to travel a bit after that after using Spacebook to find my family" later, I know which I'm choosing.

Plus all the people for whom a little crappy warp-capable starship is a car.

I mean, I dunno. I just think an FTL-capable Empire can evacuate a planet faster than a 0.1c shock wave. They don't even have to go far before they're years ahead of it!


----------



## Umbran

Hussar said:


> It’s a bit much to think all of star fleet security is complicit though.




The _head_ of Star Fleet Security is complicit.  It is quite possible she ordered that action herself.  They covered up the previous hit, why would they not cover up this?

There's a question as to how many they can cover up before there's a leak, but two is probably within bounds.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Given how emotional and untrusting Romulans usually are, I could see federation ships having troubles getting some of them to even get aboard.

"I'm not getting in no Feddie shuttle!"

Look at something like the movie Titanic - trying to get everyone aboard would turn into a big mess fast, I bet. With the logistics involved, even a small mistake could be costly. Especially if everyone started to try to get off the planet by "any means necessary".


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> I mean, I dunno. I just think an FTL-capable Empire can evacuate a planet faster than a 0.1c shock wave. They don't even have to go far before they're years ahead of it!




I agree. It's one of the reasons that I didn't like Abram's Star Trek plot-wise (I like it for it's "fun"-factor, but I loathed it's plot-holes) - A Supernova is not dangerous to the Galaxy, the Romulans should have known their star was unstable, the shockwave of the star is slower than any FTL ship, etc, etc.^1

So better writing (which I think Picard has) would assume that there was more to the story than we were told. Sub-space shockwaves, in the very least.

^1 Not to mention the unrelated-to-our-discussion things like how Kirk watched Vulcan blow up in the sky from some ice-planet (must have been Vulcan's moon, right?) or how Nero time-traveled and still blamed Spock for his wife's death - when he could have just gone and rescued her himself.


----------



## bloodtide

The problem is the poor choice of a ''natural disaster"  (IF it was natural.....).  So some poor writer Goggles ''space stuff" on their phone and see ''super nova" and then use that.

Really, they should have just used a dash of imagination and had it be a Subspace Cosmic String Cascading Phased Wavefront.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> I mean, I dunno. I just think an FTL-capable Empire can evacuate a planet faster than a 0.1c shock wave. They don't even have to go far before they're years ahead of it!




What?  That only works if you put the _entire population_ on ships at once.  At 50,000 per ship, you would need 20,000 ships to move one billion people at once!  If they have an even bigger population, you need more ships...

And we don't have a canon example of a ship that can carry 50,000 people.  Galaxy Class ships can carry 6,000.  perhaps they can design a ship that big, we have no sign of them making a fleet of 20,000 ships!

So, we are talking instead about a prolonged evacuation, ferrying people off world, landing them, and then coming back for more.


----------



## Hussar

FitzTheRuke said:


> I agree. It's one of the reasons that I didn't like Abram's Star Trek plot-wise (I like it for it's "fun"-factor, but I loathed it's plot-holes) - A Supernova is not dangerous to the Galaxy, the Romulans should have known their star was unstable, the shockwave of the star is slower than any FTL ship, etc, etc.^1
> 
> So better writing (which I think Picard has) would assume that there was more to the story than we were told. Sub-space shockwaves, in the very least.
> 
> ^1 Not to mention the unrelated-to-our-discussion things like how Kirk watched Vulcan blow up in the sky from some ice-planet (must have been Vulcan's moon, right?) or how Nero time-traveled and still blamed Spock for his wife's death - when he could have just gone and rescued her himself.




Well, to be fair, actually, there are nova events that are galaxy threatening.  Gamma Ray bursters can basically kill all multicellular life in the entire galaxy - true, it would take a while for the shock wave to travel through the galaxy - centuries even - but, there are real world events that can be that threatening.


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> What?  That only works if you put the _entire population_ on ships at once.  At 50,000 per ship, you would need 20,000 ships to move one billion people at once!  If they have an even bigger population, you need more ships...




I'm going off memory here, but IIRC it wasn't that sudden. They had plenty of warning. If it was that sudden, then sure, they had hours before the supernova destroyed the homeworld, and no rescue plan is valid.



> And we don't have a canon example of a ship that can carry 50,000 people.  Galaxy Class ships can carry 6,000.  perhaps they can design a ship that big, we have no sign of them making a fleet of 20,000 ships!




True. None of us know much about the details of the evacuation or Romulan colony ship technology. Our largest cruise liners now can carry comfortably 6.5K passengers and 2.3K crew, and I'd reckon you could double or triple that for an emergency evacuation.  And we know cryostasis is a thing, which would help, and we know other aliens have built stupendously colossal ships. But yeah, we're just making stuff up here!



> So, we are talking instead about a prolonged evacuation, ferrying people off world, landing them, and then coming back for more.



Well, yes!


----------



## Beleriphon

Umbran said:


> What?  That only works if you put the _entire population_ on ships at once.  At 50,000 per ship, you would need 20,000 ships to move one billion people at once!  If they have an even bigger population, you need more ships...
> 
> And we don't have a canon example of a ship that can carry 50,000 people.  Galaxy Class ships can carry 6,000.  perhaps they can design a ship that big, we have no sign of them making a fleet of 20,000 ships!
> 
> So, we are talking instead about a prolonged evacuation, ferrying people off world, landing them, and then coming back for more.




The comics have Picard taking a _Sovereign_-class ship to evac Romulan civilians and take them to a space station or something. So they'll be on board for a few days at worst.


----------



## Nagol

Hussar said:


> Well, to be fair, actually, there are nova events that are galaxy threatening.  Gamma Ray bursters can basically kill all multicellular life in the entire galaxy - true, it would take a while for the shock wave to travel through the galaxy - centuries even - but, there are real world events that can be that threatening.




Up to 100,000 years, from end-to-end; 50,000 years if is started near the centre.  And I haven't done the math lately, by I don't think a GBR would be deadly after 10K LY distance.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Hussar said:


> Well, to be fair, actually, there are nova events that are galaxy threatening.  Gamma Ray bursters can basically kill all multicellular life in the entire galaxy - true, it would take a while for the shock wave to travel through the galaxy - centuries even - but, there are real world events that can be that threatening.




Sure, that threatens LIFE in the galaxy (and probably not ALL life, just a "lot"), but not the galaxy itself. But I suppose that's what the writers of Star Trek 2009 could have meant for Spock to have been talking about. It seemed like he meant it would actually destroy the galaxy, but I may have got that impression from the movie being all 'splodey and blowing stuff up all over the place.


----------



## Umbran

Hussar said:


> Well, to be fair, actually, there are nova events that are galaxy threatening.  Gamma Ray bursters can basically kill all multicellular life in the entire galaxy - true, it would take a while for the shock wave to travel through the galaxy - centuries even - but, there are real world events that can be that threatening.




Note - a gammy ray burster does not kill by shockwave.  They kill by emitted gamma rays.  

Also, "all life in an entire galaxy" is only true for a small galaxy.  GRBs may have effective lethal ranges of a few thousand light years, yes.  But the Milky Way is a _hundred thousand_ light years across....


----------



## Umbran

FitzTheRuke said:


> But I suppose that's what the writers of Star Trek 2009 could have meant...




Star Trek is not a hard science show.  It is basically action-adventure morality play.  What they meant is to have high stakes.  Technical accuracy is... not a priority for them.


----------



## Beleriphon

Umbran said:


> Star Trek is not a hard science show.  It is basically action-adventure morality play.  What they meant is to have high stakes.  Technical accuracy is... not a priority for them.




Even when being technically "accurate", is the best kind of accurate?


----------



## Umbran

Beleriphon said:


> Even when being technically "accurate", is the best kind of accurate?




_Especially_ when technical accuracy is the best kind of accuracy.  Trek isn't about being correct or incorrect.  It is about being right or wrong.


----------



## Janx

Hussar said:


> Well, to be fair, actually, there are nova events that are galaxy threatening.  Gamma Ray bursters can basically kill all multicellular life in the entire galaxy - true, it would take a while for the shock wave to travel through the galaxy - centuries even - but, there are real world events that can be that threatening.




Side question:  Since a GRB is basically an explosion of gamma rays, can Trek shielding block that? We've seen Trek ships snuggle close to stars, I assume any given star is kicking out a ton of all flavors of radiation, gamma included.

So a GRB maybe trivial to a ship with working shields (assuming you're not in the source star system where it's strongest and graphically scary thanks to CGI).  The threat then is to planets, particularly ones not advanced enough to have shields (if any do).


----------



## MarkB

Janx said:


> Side question:  Since a GRB is basically an explosion of gamma rays, can Trek shielding block that? We've seen Trek ships snuggle close to stars, I assume any given star is kicking out a ton of all flavors of radiation, gamma included.
> 
> So a GRB maybe trivial to a ship with working shields (assuming you're not in the source star system where it's strongest and graphically scary thanks to CGI).  The threat then is to planets, particularly ones not advanced enough to have shields (if any do).



There's a question of intensity and duration. Ships in Star Trek need special shielding when getting too close to stars, and can't remain there for very long. We're also talking about dedicated military vessels here - most commercial craft won't have that level of shielding.

I don't think we've ever really seen an example of planetary shields on any major developed world in Star Trek, though they've occasionally shown up as strange alien tech on previously-unexplored worlds. Cardassia Prime, at the climax of the Dominion War, was defended mostly by space mines and starships.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> Side question:  Since a GRB is basically an explosion of gamma rays, can Trek shielding block that? We've seen Trek ships snuggle close to stars, I assume any given star is kicking out a ton of all flavors of radiation, gamma included.




So, having done some more reading...

You don't get "kill all life on a planet" out of a gamma ray burst unless it is _right next door_ - a few light years at most.  In this situation, the gamma rays are strong enough to basically strip a planet of its atmosphere and sterilize it.   There are no stars near enough to Earth to have this effect.

More often, you expect to see extensive damage to a planet's ozone layer, meaning significantly increased UV exposure until that layer is rebuilt.  This can be felt several thousand lightyears away from the source.

I think that, within the Trek universe, we'd expect an exploding star to have unspecified _subspace_ effects, of which our normal science knows diddly.  Figure anyone within a few light years of a supernova is gonna have a bad day, GRB or not.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Umbran said:


> Star Trek is not a hard science show.  It is basically action-adventure morality play.  What they meant is to have high stakes.  Technical accuracy is... not a priority for them.




Of course! But they usually do a better job of faking it than ST09 did. I blame JJ "I don't know anything about space" Abrams for that. I'd have been happy with the barest minimum of Trek-style explanation over what we got. Like bloodtide says above, a "Subspace Cosmic String Cascading Phased Wavefront" would have done better.

Now that it's done, though, I'd be very happy with something like Romulan "star-frakking" causing the Supernova to ALSO emit a "subspace phasic destructive wavefront" in addition to its splodey-ness. 

I'm also fine with the story as ST Picard appears to be presenting - that the Evacuation Efforts were colossal, but not as much as Picard would have liked to have done, and while Romulans were saved, more could have been done, and a LOT of them died.


----------



## Umbran

FitzTheRuke said:


> Of course! But they usually do a better job of faking it than ST09 did. I blame JJ "I don't know anything about space" Abrams for that.




Ugh.  The dude gave us transporters operating over interstellar distances.  I am _totally_ with you on that point.



> I'm also fine with the story as ST Picard appears to be presenting - that the Evacuation Efforts were colossal, but not as much as Picard would have liked to have done, and while Romulans were saved, more could have been done, and a LOT of them died.




Agreed.  That's an entirely plausible approach, and pretty consistent with what little we have seen..

Speaking of which... I am off to finish watching the 3rd episode.  Back in a bit...

Edit:  Well, I had about 90 seconds of the episode left.  That was quick...


----------



## Ryujin

Umbran said:


> Ugh.  The dude gave us transporters operating over interstellar distances.  I am _totally_ with you on that point.




There are about a thousand very good reasons why "The Orville" dropped the concept of transporters in their Federation equivalent, let alone universe breaking interstellar transporters.


----------



## Umbran

Ryujin said:


> There are about a thousand very good reasons why "The Orville" dropped the concept of transporters in their Federation equivalent, let alone universe breaking interstellar transporters.




But then they go ahead and have them appear in the second episode anyway...


----------



## bloodtide

Episode 4

Well...more building with not much happening.  

Hum Romulan Mad Max world had a space shield...just like in Star Wars.  Hummm. 

Lots of fun spin writing.  Like how Picard is all shocked the Romulans are living all poor like.  Guess he thought they would be living like Federation people on Earth, right?  And then...loony old guy that he us, he blames the Federation!  And, gosh, none of the Romulans seem happy that Picard HELPED SAVE THEIR LIVES, nope they are just all evil space thugs.  

Oh and a Romulan elf guy joins the crew....yae?

Oh, and, sigh, guess Freecloud is just a lame space casino...yet another cool copy from Star Wars, right?


----------



## MarkB

bloodtide said:


> HOh, and, sigh, guess Freecloud is just a lame space casino...yet another cool copy from Star Wars, right?



Space casinos are hardly an original Star Wars concept. They've been around ever since people started setting stories in space. Quark's bar on DS9 is a casino.


----------



## Mallus

First reaction to episode 4: I love this and Michael Chabon should write every episode (with Frakes directing - he’s damn good).

Second reaction: I want to see Michael Chabon writing emo scripts for the Lord of the Rings show because he really needs to work more in the pointy ears, swords, and quests genre.


----------



## Mallus

bloodtide said:


> Episode 4
> 
> Well...more building with not much happening.
> 
> Hum Romulan Mad Max world had a space shield...just like in Star Wars.  Hummm.
> 
> Lots of fun spin writing.  Like how Picard is all shocked the Romulans are living all poor like.  Guess he thought they would be living like Federation people on Earth, right?  And then...loony old guy that he us, he blames the Federation!  And, gosh, none of the Romulans seem happy that Picard HELPED SAVE THEIR LIVES, nope they are just all evil space thugs.
> 
> Oh and a Romulan elf guy joins the crew....yae?
> 
> Oh, and, sigh, guess Freecloud is just a lame space casino...yet another cool copy from Star Wars, right?



Congratulations! That was a terrible summary. Why are you watching this if you get nothing out of it?


----------



## Umbran

bloodtide said:


> Like how Picard is all shocked the Romulans are living all poor like.




What?  I didn't see him shocked. He was unaware of how far things had slipped, but he's been out of the loop for a long time.  He's ashamed that the didn't do more for them.  Bu he isn't shocked.



> And, gosh, none of the Romulans seem happy that Picard HELPED SAVE THEIR LIVES, nope they are just all evil space thugs.




None of the Romulans... except for the ones he spends time with and do like him.  So, yeah... all of them don't like him, except the ones that do like him :/

And, with respect, they were given assurances that they'd be helped, and then abandoned with limited resources and no prospects, for something like 14 years.  People left in poverty for over a decade... yeah, they get angry.  Duh.



> Oh, and, sigh, guess Freecloud is just a lame space casino...yet another cool copy from Star Wars, right?




"Out in space there's a lawless place with no regulation, filled with gambling and various other unsavory activities" is as old as sci-fi.  And with a name like "Freecloud" what did you expect?


----------



## MarkB

MarkB said:


> I don't think we've ever really seen an example of planetary shields on any major developed world in Star Trek





			
				Vashti said:
			
		

> Hi, I am run-down frontier planet. I has shields.



Well, that didn't take long.


----------



## trappedslider

bloodtide said:


> Episode 4
> 
> Well...more building with not much happening.
> 
> Hum Romulan Mad Max world had a space shield...just like in Star Wars.  Hummm.
> 
> Lots of fun spin writing.  Like how Picard is all shocked the Romulans are living all poor like.  Guess he thought they would be living like Federation people on Earth, right?  And then...loony old guy that he us, he blames the Federation!  And, gosh, none of the Romulans seem happy that Picard HELPED SAVE THEIR LIVES, nope they are just all evil space thugs.
> 
> Oh and a Romulan elf guy joins the crew....yae?
> 
> Oh, and, sigh, guess Freecloud is just a lame space casino...yet another cool copy from Star Wars, right?





What did i just read?


----------



## Morrus

So going back to the previous conversation — it’s 900M people evacuated to planets outside the blast zone.


----------



## Raunalyn

Morrus said:


> So going back to the previous conversation — it’s 900M people evacuated to planets outside the blast zone.




Right, 900 million. How many ships would that take? What would be the capacity of those ships? I remember reading something about the Enterprise D having a crew compliment of around 500 people, but Constellation class star ships are not the biggest in Starfleet. How many could you safely stuff into the ships?


----------



## Morrus

Raunalyn said:


> Right, 900 million. How many ships would that take? What would be the capacity of those ships? I remember reading something about the Enterprise D having a crew compliment of around 500 people, but Constellation class star ships are not the biggest in Starfleet. How many could you safely stuff into the ships?



1024 crew, but that’s by the by. That’s not a colony ship. It’s purpose isn’t transporting large numbers of people.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> 1024 crew, but that’s by the by. That’s not a colony ship. It’s purpose isn’t transporting large numbers of people.




If you look on Memory Alpha or the like... the Federation seems to like its colonies small - Federation colony ships carry a couple/few thousand people, not tens of thousands.


----------



## Umbran

Raunalyn said:


> Right, 900 million. How many ships would that take?




We can't say how many ships, unless we also know the timeframes involved.

In general, the Federation has some thousands of ships, but they are _every thinly spread_.  For the Battle of Wolf 359, in Best of Both Worlds, they pulled together 39 ships, which were all destroyed.  Major engagements in the Dominioun war had 600 to 1500 ships (not all of these were Federation vessels - the Klingons and Romulans were allied with the Federation.

So, for an effort like this, you can expect maybe a couple thousand ships?


----------



## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> Well, that didn't take long.




Defence satellites, not shields. They were shooting at the ships in combat, that got too close to the planet.


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> We can't say how many ships, unless we also know the timeframes involved.
> 
> In general, the Federation has some thousands of ships, but they are _every thinly spread_.  For the Battle of Wolf 359, in Best of Both Worlds, they pulled together 39 ships, which were all destroyed.  Major engagements in the Dominioun war had 600 to 1500 ships (not all of these were Federation vessels - the Klingons and Romulans were allied with the Federation.
> 
> So, for an effort like this, you can expect maybe a couple thousand ships?



Think Dunkirk. The number of civilian transports, cruise liners, cargo ships in a vast interstellar empire ten thousand times the size of Earth would number in the tens of millions. _Then_ add Starfleet. I find it hard to feel 900m people is a stretch.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

I believe some estimates on the size of Starfleet gave something like 9,000 to 30,000 ships as reasonable numbers (30,000 was a guesstimate given by Ronald D.Moore), which could be including anything from Danube Class Runabouts (evacuation limit: 15 people perhaps?) to Galaxy Class Cruisers (evacuation limit 15,000 according to Memory Alpha). But there is no exact canonical figure.

Of course, you can't actually use many them. These ships serve a purpose in Starfleet - patrolling borders, transporting goods, providing emergency relief to other worlds, ferrying diplomats... And other ships will be on deep space missions and might take years to get back. Starfleet cannot afford to just recall all of these ships to Romulus without severely impacting the integrity of the Federation. 
So they will have only be able to mobilize a small fraction of this fleet.


----------



## MarkB

Ryujin said:


> Defence satellites, not shields. They were shooting at the ships in combat, that got too close to the planet.



It's a bit of both. In the close-up shots as they're being herded toward the barrier by the bird of prey, you can see that there are forcefields projected between the drones, forming a composite shield around the whole planet. Seven of Nine's ship ends up smooshing into it.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

If we're gonna keep on this subject (and why not?) then we'd have to factor in, not just number of ships, and the ship's refugee capacity, but also boarding rate and/or beam rate. How many people could, say, the Enterprise D beam up at a time?


----------



## Morrus

FitzTheRuke said:


> If we're gonna keep on this subject (and why not?) then we'd have to factor in, not just number of ships, and the ship's refugee capacity, but also boarding rate and/or beam rate. How many people could, say, the Enterprise D beam up at a time?



We don’t know how much warning they had, but that might not really be an issue. If they had hours warning, they’re all dead whatever. If they had months, the evacuation is easy.


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> If we're gonna keep on this subject (and why not?) then we'd have to factor in, not just number of ships, and the ship's refugee capacity, but also boarding rate and/or beam rate. How many people could, say, the Enterprise D beam up at a time?



Quite a few. The Enterprise-D has at least 8 transporter rooms, plus three shuttle bays. It's established in canon that its entire crew can be evacuated in 7 minutes.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> Think Dunkirk. The number of civilian transports, cruise liners, cargo ships in a vast interstellar empire ten thousand times the size of Earth would number in the tens of millions. _Then_ add Starfleet. I find it hard to feel 900m people is a stretch.




Noting that we are theory crafting here....  But you forget how friggin' enormous the Federation is.  Sources are not consistent, but just from Encounter at Farpoint, we get that the Federation is several thousand of light years across.  And while from Enterprise D onwards the flagship can maintain warp 9.x for a while, most ships move at more modest speeds.  It takes months to years to fly across the Federation.  Thus, while there are lots of ships in the Federation, the vast majority of them are not available on short notice.

This is why the destruction of the shipyards was so large an issue - they were building ships for the effort, and they were lost.

I mean, they give us a number of people saved - note that it is less than a billion.  Real Earth right now has 7 billion - assume an advanced civilizations got at least that many on their home world.  Which suggests... most of the Romulan population didn't make it.  We get a sense of the cataastrophe from that.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> It's a bit of both. In the close-up shots as they're being herded toward the barrier by the bird of prey, you can see that there are forcefields projected between the drones, forming a composite shield around the whole planet. Seven of Nine's ship ends up smooshing into it.




Yeah, and they need to wait for an opening to be able to beam down or up.


----------



## trappedslider

okay from memory alpha (canon ST) we get the following info:

The Romulan Star Empire asked the United Federation of Planets for help with evacuation efforts, and Starfleet agreed to provide aid at the behest of Jean-Luc Picard. Picard left the USS _Enterprise_-E to command a rescue armada of ten thousand Federation tugs, with the intent to relocate 900 million Romulan citizens to worlds outside the blast of the supernova. He would later compare this rescue effort to the Dunkirk evacuation of World War II.

(Then the fire nation attacked)


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Umbran said:


> I mean, they give us a number of people saved.




Oh. I've had the impression that 900 million was the number of Romulans that _needed_ evacuating. You mean, it was the number that was successfully evacuatED and we don't know how many died? Could have been billions? Is that correct?



MarkB said:


> Quite a few. The Enterprise-D has at least 8 transporter rooms, plus three shuttle bays. It's established in canon that its entire crew can be evacuated in 7 minutes.




You mean a well-trained and organised crew can LEAVE the ship in 7 minutes, right? I'm more wondering just how many people they can take off a planet and how long it would take to "fill up" to the ship's refugee capacity. 

I mean, even when you beam a group to the transporter pad, you've still got to get them off the pad and out before you do the next group, and I bet conflict would occur regularly too!


----------



## Umbran

trappedslider said:


> ... a rescue armada of ten thousand Federation tugs...




Ahh.  So... you take a warp and impulse drive, tack a bridge on it.  Attach that to a cargo container quickly converted to have life support.  Haul cargo out, drop it off, head back for the next container...


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> I mean, they give us a number of people saved - note that it is less than a billion.  Real Earth right now has 7 billion - assume an advanced civilizations got at least that many on their home world.  Which suggests... most of the Romulan population didn't make it.  We get a sense of the cataastrophe from that.




I just watched it again. It wasn't 900M of of a 9B population that got saved. It was 900M total that needed to get saved. I don't know what the capital world of a stellar empire had only 900M people on it, but them's the stated facts.


----------



## Morrus

FitzTheRuke said:


> Oh. I've had the impression that 900 million was the number of Romulans that _needed_ evacuating. You mean, it was the number that was successfully evacuatED and we don't know how many died? Could have been billions? Is that correct?




No, you're right. Just 900M need saving.


----------



## Morrus

We'll also note that Picard directly referenced Dunkirk. That means they definitely mobilised/commandeered civilian vessels.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> No, you're right. Just 900M need saving.




Right. And some nebulous number failed to be relocated, and some that WERE relocated were only meant to be placed temporarily on less-than-best planets and then further relocated afterward, which didn't happen. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like what the Romulans that Picard visited were angry about, right?)


----------



## Morrus

FitzTheRuke said:


> Right. And some nebulous number failed to be relocated, and some that WERE relocated were only meant to be placed temporarily on less-than-best planets and then further relocated afterward, which didn't happen. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like what the Romulans that Picard visited were angry about, right?)



My impressions was 900M needed evacuating, but he quit after some opposition, and only a portion of those actually got saved,


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> I just watched it again. It wasn't 900M of of a 9B population that got saved. It was 900M total that needed to get saved. I don't know what the capital world of a stellar empire had only 900M people on it, but them's the stated facts.




Memory alpha states it as, "Starfleet began constructing a fleet of ten thousand Federation tugs to help transport 900 million Romulan citizens away from the star's blast radius "

If they were moving the entire population, it would have read, "..to help transport *the* 900 million Romulan citizens..."

I think it is more, "We have this plan - with our resources, we can move 900 million people.  Your own resources will have to move others..."

Because, as noted, 900 million for the homeworld of a major star empire seems very, very low.


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> If they were moving the entire population, it would have read, "..to help transport *the* 900 million Romulan citizens..."



I wouldn't rely on the grammar of a fan wiki to prove your point. From the show itself, 900M appears to be the number of people who needed rescuing. Yes, it seems low. But hey. Star Trek.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> I wouldn't rely on the grammar of a fan wiki to prove your point. From the show itself, 900M appears to be the number of people who needed rescuing. Yes, it seems low. But hey. Star Trek.




I dunno, it's pretty vague. It may have been the Federation's contribution to the evac effort. Perhaps the Romulans rescued more on their own. The main thing we know is that the Federation evacuated SOME people, but not as many as they promised. Of course, it turns out they had a pretty good excuse, if the ships they were fast-tracking to do it all got blown up by some crazy synth uprising.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> I wouldn't rely on the grammar of a fan wiki to prove your point. From the show itself, 900M appears to be the number of people who needed rescuing. Yes, it seems low. But hey. Star Trek.



The interview in episode 1 gives the 900 million figure, but Raffi in the flashback in episode 3 says there are billions of people within the supernova's blast radius. I think the 900 million were simply the ones that Picard began moving with the available fleet, while the larger fleet was still under construction on Mars.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

MarkB said:


> The interview in episode 1 gives the 900 million figure, but Raffi in the flashback in episode 3 says there are billions of people within the supernova's blast radius. I think the 900 million were simply the ones that Picard began moving with the available fleet, while the larger fleet was still under construction on Mars.




Right. Makes sense that 900 million was the Federation's projected effort, and they failed to get it all done, by some nebulous number.


----------



## Vael

Morrus said:


> I wouldn't rely on the grammar of a fan wiki to prove your point. From the show itself, 900M appears to be the number of people who needed rescuing. Yes, it seems low. But hey. Star Trek.




Scale and numbers all tend to be off in Star Trek in general. I remember finding the death toll on Mars (92,143) was actually pretty light given that the atmosphere of the planet is, according to the reporter, still on fire.


----------



## Morrus

Vael said:


> Scale and numbers all tend to be off in Star Trek in general. I remember finding the death toll on Mars (92,143) was actually pretty light given that the atmosphere of the planet is, according to the reporter, still on fire.



What was the population of Mars?


----------



## Vael

Morrus said:


> What was the population of Mars?




Unknown, but, according to Memory Alpha, it had been terraformed to the point that you could walk outside without an environmental suit before the founding of the Federation (ie, during Enterprise). And Star Trek Picard implies that the planet is no longer habitable, so those that didn't die in the attack have left.


----------



## Morrus

Vael said:


> Unknown



You have an estimate though? Because you found a bombing death toll of 94K to be light? Or, I guess, what percentage is light in a bombing situation?

(I’m personally comparing this to the Blitz, but just one night, not months on end).


----------



## Vael

Morrus said:


> You have an estimate though? Because you found a bombing death toll of 94K to be light? Or, I guess, what percentage is light in a bombing situation?
> 
> (I’m personally comparing this to the Blitz, but just one night, not months on end).




I'm thinking more the bombing of Hiroshima x every major city on Mars. Explosions are visible from orbit, and the whole planet is no longer habitable. Mars is one of Earth's oldest colony worlds, so I'd guess it has a population in the millions, minimum.

Put it this way, Ottawa has a population of 934K.


----------



## Morrus

Vael said:


> I'm thinking more the bombing of Hiroshima x every major city on Mars. Explosions are visible from orbit, and the whole planet is no longer habitable. Mars is one of Earth's oldest colony worlds, so I'd guess it has a population in the millions, minimum.




Is that a thing? I always assumed a few colonies at most. Most UFP worlds are Class-M planets; Genesis was a big terraforming deal, and they never used it. Where are you getting the millions from?



> Put it this way, Ottawa has a population of 934K.




New Milton has a population of 25,717.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> Is that a thing? I always assumed a few colonies at most. Most UFP worlds are Class-M planets; Genesis was a big terraforming deal, and they never used it. Where are you getting the millions from?



Put it this way, the Moon in Star Trek has multiple cities on it, and it doesn't even have an atmosphere. If Mars was minimally populated, why would they have bothered to terraform it to the extent of having a breathable atmosphere?


----------



## Morrus

MarkB said:


> Put it this way, the Moon in Star Trek has multiple cities on it, and it doesn't even have an atmosphere. If Mars was minimally populated, why would they have bothered to terraform it to the extent of having a breathable atmosphere?



I assume Mars has a few domes? Dunno!


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> I assume Mars has a few domes? Dunno!




I don't think Mars had much more than the shipyard and some other industry. I mean, really, why would anyone want to live on Mars? Even if they terraformed it all the way to atmosphere, it's still got low-gravity. (Though I suppose they have some kind of gravity generators or something.)


----------



## Vael

Star Trek: First Contact stated that over 50 Million people lived on the moon, I'd assume Mars had a larger population, it's bigger and even more habitable.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Vael said:


> Star Trek: First Contact stated that over 50 Million people lived on the moon, I'd assume Mars had a larger population, it's bigger and even more habitable.




Yeah, it's better than living on the moon all right (other than proximity to Earth).


----------



## trappedslider

So,let's look and see what Memory Alpha says about Mars:

Mars was the first planet to be terraformed by Humans. Colonists originally dwelt within domed cities while the verteron array was used to redirect comets and asteroids towards the Red Planet to impact in the polar caps. This freed carbon dioxide and released it into the atmosphere, increasing the planet's temperature and water volume. By 2155, conditions in the lowlands of the Martian surface were sufficiently altered to allow Humans to roam freely without heavy environmental suits, though one would still have to dress warmly for the near-arctic surface temperatures. (ENT: "Demons", "Terra Prime")
_[The final draft script of "Terra Prime" explained, "_Conditions on partially terraformed Mars are the equivalent of being half a mile higher than Mount Everest._"
Based on the planet's appearance in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II", "Relativity", and "Children of Mars", the terraforming of Mars appears to remain incomplete as of 2385.]_


And the actual attack on Mars:

Though initial reports estimated over three thousand killed, the death toll was eventually revised to 92,143 in total.
(_Star Trek_; ST: "Children of Mars"; PIC: "Remembrance", "The End is the Beginning")


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> I don't think Mars had much more than the shipyard and some other industry. I mean, really, why would anyone want to live on Mars? Even if they terraformed it all the way to atmosphere, it's still got low-gravity. (Though I suppose they have some kind of gravity generators or something.)



For a lot of people, lower gravity would be a selling point.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

MarkB said:


> For a lot of people, lower gravity would be a selling point.




Maybe in their heads, but I expect we will find all sorts of terrible side-effects. Though I suppose, Star Trekkian medicine can easily deal with those. I doubt it would be comfortable for most people though (and people sure do like their comfort). I mean, look at that description: "half a mile higher than Everest" - that doesn't sound fun to me. Of course, the domes can probably easily dial the gravity up as part of their life-support.

In real life, mark my words: Living on Mars is going to suuuuck. Presumably we will find out soon enough.


----------



## Morrus

Star Trek has plentiful artificial gravity. That's not going to be an issue.


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> Maybe in their heads, but I expect we will find all sorts of terrible side-effects. Though I suppose, Star Trekkian medicine can easily deal with those. I doubt it would be comfortable for most people though (and people sure do like their comfort). I mean, look at that description: "half a mile higher than Everest" - that doesn't sound fun to me. Of course, the domes can probably easily dial the gravity up as part of their life-support.
> 
> In real life, mark my words: Living on Mars is going to suuuuck. Presumably we will find out soon enough.



That "half a mile higher than Everest" line is about the air pressure, and possibly the temperature, not the gravity. You need to get considerably further away from Earth than a couple of miles before you feel any appreciable decrease in gravity.

Low gravity can exacerbate certain health issues, and has a significant effect on bone and muscle development during childhood, but on the other hand it would also greatly relieve many conditions such as joint pain, high blood pressure and cardiovascular degeneration due to old age, so maybe Mars is just one big retirement community.


----------



## trappedslider

I would note that time wise, ST:Enterprise takes place long before the attack on Mars,so there is a chance that conditions were different. 
Here's a run down of locations on Mars that been mentioned in Star Trek over the years.



Carl Sagan Memorial Station
Yogi

Daystrom Institute annex
Lower Martian plateau
Mars City Station
Mars Orbital Facility
Marsport
Martian colonies
Martian Colony 3

Mons Olympus Station
Paul Institute of Mars
Starfleet Technical Services Academy
Utopia Colony
Utopia Planitia
Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Utopia Planitia Gardens
Quayle Canals Northeast



so I think it was more than a retirement community.


----------



## Hussar

After a certain point, I think that the evacuation of Romulus just has to go in the "suspension of disbelief" file.  There are too many unknowns, and, frankly, it wasn't written by scientists, so, it's never going to be very believable once you start drilling down.

If we take the following as given:

1.  At some point, more than 14 years ago, Romulus' sun was discovered to be going to go nova and the Federation stepped up to help.
2.  For some time, led by Picard, the Federation did help.  And this time wasn't a terribly short time either.  We see the colony on Vashti 14 years ago and it's not new.  They had time to grow fresh fruit after all.  They looked pretty settled in in the flashback.
3. 14 years ago, the synthetics rebel and this starts the chain of events that lead the Federation to abandoning the Romulan relief effort.  Why is still somewhat unknown - did the destruction of the fleet yards mean that the relief was no longer possible?
4.  Picard resigns because of this, leaving the Romulans to their fate.  Since he was the face of the Federation during the relief efforts, there are some Romulans who blame him for what the Federation did.

Did I miss any details?  To me, this is the important stuff.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Hussar said:


> Did I miss any details?  To me, this is the important stuff.




The Star blew up 11 years ago, didn't it? So they still should have had three years?



MarkB said:


> That "half a mile higher than Everest" line is about the air pressure, and possibly the temperature, not the gravity.




Oh, I know. I see how it could seem like I put the thoughts together. I just mean that half a mile higher than Everest would suck to live on, and I think Mars will suck to live on, IRL.  The discussion of gravity was related but separate. But you're probably right - low gravity by itself might not be too bad, if other factors are taken care of, as they surely are in a Star Trek world. And as Morrus pointed out, they've easily solved the gravity issue too!


----------



## tomBitonti

What is the limit on either putting folks into stasis, or on building and moving enormous empty cylinders?

Fabbing cubic miles of cargo space seems within easy reach, assuming minimal amenities and tech in the cylinder itself.  I don’t know amount getting something that big into warp.  But borg cubes can travel in warp, and the are close to 8 cubic miles of space each.

My biggest problem is that Star Trek usual ability to invent fantastic solution in dire necessity.  How about sending a couple of fabricators back in time a couple of decades, with instructions to grow a transport fleet in hiding, then appear when needed?

Thx!
TomB


----------



## Umbran

Hussar said:


> 3. 14 years ago, the synthetics rebel and this starts the chain of events that lead the Federation to abandoning the Romulan relief effort.  Why is still somewhat unknown - did the destruction of the fleet yards mean that the relief was no longer possible?




Why?  Some AI (perhaps Control, from Discovery?) gets wind of how the Romulans hateHateHATE AIs.  Feeling the Romulans are a threat, the AI takes a shot at removing them when the chance arises, by curtaining Federation Aid....


----------



## Hussar

Heh, @Umbran - likely that "why" is going to be a central issue in the show.    Was it the Federation?  Was it that luddite Romulan faction that hates AI?  Someone else?  There aren't really a shortage of suspects here.  

Ok, so, we've got the evacuation on the go previous to year 14 - after all they did have time to settle on Vashti - plus another 3 years without any Federation help.  

Given Star Trek level tech, you'd think this is fairly plausible.  One other thing that does bug me is that Vashti has now been settled for more than 14 years.  Presumably they have replicators.  A single Class 4 replicator can kickstart a civilization.  3 were considered sufficient to rebuilt Cardassia (IIRC - my DS9 memory might be failing).  Why on earth is Vashti a "wild west" looking location?  14 years of replicator technology and this planet should be rocking at least 21st century technology, if not later.  Instead it's dirt streets and open air markets.  

This doesn't make a lot of sense.


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> One other thing that does bug me is that Vashti has now been settled for more than 14 years.  Presumably they have replicators.  A single Class 4 replicator can kickstart a civilization.  3 were considered sufficient to rebuilt Cardassia (IIRC - my DS9 memory might be failing).  Why on earth is Vashti a "wild west" looking location?  14 years of replicator technology and this planet should be rocking at least 21st century technology, if not later.  Instead it's dirt streets and open air markets.
> 
> This doesn't make a lot of sense.



Class 4 replicators are also a Big Deal though, to the extent that (a) the Cardassians, a very advanced civilisation, don't have their own, and have to ask the Federation for them, and (b) when they get stolen, it's not just a simple matter of shipping over a few more from storage.

On Bajor, there's very nearly a civil uprising over the allocation of replicator technology to agricultural regions in order to regenerate land viability. There are only a handful available, and losing one for a few months can make the difference between surviving and going bust.

Basically, domestic and commercial grade replicators are reasonably inexpensive, but scaling them up to industrial grade gets exponentially more costly.


----------



## Ryujin

You also need power for replication, which they may not have on Vashti in abundance.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

tomBitonti said:


> What is the limit on either putting folks into stasis, or on building and moving enormous empty cylinders?
> 
> Fabbing cubic miles of cargo space seems within easy reach, assuming minimal amenities and tech in the cylinder itself.  I don’t know amount getting something that big into warp.  But borg cubes can travel in warp, and the are close to 8 cubic miles of space each.



Borg Cubes do that, but one Borg Cube also blew up 39 Starfleet vessels and had sustained practically no damage. Borg technology might not be quite what we're operating at.

Logistics and structural engineering are complicated. "Hey, we can build bridges over rivers, so why not just simply build a bridge from New York to Ireland?" "Hey, we can build factories that produce 1000 cars per day, why not build a factory that produces 1000 aircraft carriers per day?" 
"Hey, we can beam away teams of up to 8 people for our daily Final Frontier exploration mission, why not just beam 8,000 people per hour over 3 months without interruption?"

Scale can be important, and turn something simple to something really, really hard to do.



> My biggest problem is that Star Trek usual ability to invent fantastic solution in dire necessity.  How about sending a couple of fabricators back in time a couple of decades, with instructions to grow a transport fleet in hiding, then appear when needed?
> 
> Thx!
> TomB



Great idea, isn't that how they won the Dominion War, too?

Oh, wait it's not. I guess casually time traveling is still somewhat... limited. Maybe because it is causally problematic.


----------



## Ryujin

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Great idea, isn't that how they won the Dominion War, too?
> 
> Oh, wait it's not. I guess casually time traveling is still somewhat... limited. Maybe because it is causally problematic.




Temporal Prime Directive.


----------



## MarkB

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Great idea, isn't that how they won the Dominion War, too?
> 
> Oh, wait it's not. I guess casually time traveling is still somewhat... limited. Maybe because it is causally problematic.



Also, unless your name's Palpatine, you still need an actual industrial base in order to mass-produce starships. You can't just go off and do it in hiding somewhere.


----------



## Hussar

MarkB said:


> Class 4 replicators are also a Big Deal though, to the extent that (a) the Cardassians, a very advanced civilisation, don't have their own, and have to ask the Federation for them, and (b) when they get stolen, it's not just a simple matter of shipping over a few more from storage.
> 
> On Bajor, there's very nearly a civil uprising over the allocation of replicator technology to agricultural regions in order to regenerate land viability. There are only a handful available, and losing one for a few months can make the difference between surviving and going bust.
> 
> Basically, domestic and commercial grade replicators are reasonably inexpensive, but scaling them up to industrial grade gets exponentially more costly.




I thought they didn't have them because they got destroyed.  

Sure, Bajor had an issue.  But, the Romulans have many, many planets outside of their homeworld.  And, they had more than a couple of years to evacuate their homeworld as well.  You'd think they'd have the capacity that after more than 14 years on a planet, they would at least be able to pave the streets and not live in shanty towns.  

I guess it would have been too expensive to make more than one set.


----------



## MarkB

So, something that occurred to me last episode, which I haven't seen much speculation about - though admittedly I do try to avoid most of the more speculative sites to avoid spoilers.

The first scene we see of Rios, where he's got the piece of shrapnel in his shoulder, didn't much stand out for me at the time - it seemed like just a slightly overblown way of suggesting that he was a bit of a badass. But as we've seen all of his identically-faced emergency holograms, seemingly for every function of the ship, it did creep up on me that the shrapnel scene would be an excellent way for someone to establish themselves to a newcomer as definitely being a real, flesh-and-blood person, should they feel a need to do so.

What are the chances that we're ultimately going to find that Rios himself is just another holographic personality, on a starship that is essentially running itself? I know he talks about sleeping and dreaming, but I feel like an EMH that had been left running for long enough might adopt such practices, either deliberately or as a developing personality quirk, perhaps to serve much the same function of memory-sorting that dreams do for humans.

And it would certainly fit the running themes of the series very well.


----------



## Mort

MarkB said:


> So, something that occurred to me last episode, which I haven't seen much speculation about - though admittedly I do try to avoid most of the more speculative sites to avoid spoilers.
> 
> The first scene we see of Rios, where he's got the piece of shrapnel in his shoulder, didn't much stand out for me at the time - it seemed like just a slightly overblown way of suggesting that he was a bit of a badass. But as we've seen all of his identically-faced emergency holograms, seemingly for every function of the ship, it did creep up on me that the shrapnel scene would be an excellent way for someone to establish themselves to a newcomer as definitely being a real, flesh-and-blood person, should they feel a need to do so.
> 
> What are the chances that we're ultimately going to find that Rios himself is just another holographic personality, on a starship that is essentially running itself? I know he talks about sleeping and dreaming, but I feel like an EMH that had been left running for long enough might adopt such practices, either deliberately or as a developing personality quirk, perhaps to serve much the same function of memory-sorting that dreams do for humans.
> 
> And it would certainly fit the running themes of the series very well.




It would be great if the show went in this direction - even Rios getting off the ship isn't 100% definitive as portable holo technology has been around since at least Voyager.

I was wondering if the show was going to explore synthetic vs, hologram "life." The holograms of Star Trek have quite often taken on real life - heck one was a main character! Starfleet has outlawed synthetic life form creation - but holograms still seem to be relatively common (that's a guess - but we've seen 2 separate instances already - not just on the ship).

Interesting to see where this goes (might not be anywhere, the show is already spinning a lot of plates).


----------



## Beleriphon

Mort said:


> I was wondering if the show was going to explore synthetic vs, hologram "life." The holograms of Star Trek have quite often taken on real life - heck one was a main character! Starfleet has outlawed synthetic life form creation - but holograms still seem to be relatively common (that's a guess - but we've seen 2 separate instances already - not just on the ship).




I doubt it, the holograms are still computer programs with an interface. Starfleet doesn't seem to have banned AI research, but instead how to cram that AI into a humaoind shape, since it otherwise takes a starship's computer to manage it.


----------



## Janx

Hussar said:


> I guess it would have been too expensive to make more than one set.




Plus it would have weakened the "you abandoned us, Picard" vibe they had going on.  Reinforced by the initial White Man Welcome we got at the beginning and how stagnant they were without his help. That particular vibe wouldn't have been so strong if he literally didn't arrive dressed like a British Explorer among the starving natives.


----------



## MarkB

Janx said:


> Plus it would have weakened the "you abandoned us, Picard" vibe they had going on.  Reinforced by the initial White Man Welcome we got at the beginning and how stagnant they were without his help. That particular vibe wouldn't have been so strong if he literally didn't arrive dressed like a British Explorer among the starving natives.



Yeah, that outfit was not exactly subtle in its subtext.


----------



## Rabulias

I like the twins aspect to all this, and it has stirred a lot of thoughts on parallels and contrasts. Assuming the Romulan prophecy of the "one who dies" and the "destroyer" is true, like most cryptic prophecies, it might be being misinterpreted.

Data was the twin who died, and B4 (or Lore?) might be the destroyer. Though I guess they would be triplets? (There are three sides to the Romulan tarot cards...)

Twins don't need to be identical. Narek and Rizzo - are they twins?

Perhaps it is more abstract than that, though. Here we get into my overthinking this. ;-)

Let's not forget Romulus and Remus. Did anyone talk about evacuating the Remans from the supernova? They seemed pretty resentful of both the Romulans and the Federation back in _Star Trek Nemesis_.

I find myself mulling about the similarities between the Federation and the Romulans. Too often the Federation seems to have a secret cabal working within it. And there is the "open" secret cabal of Section 31. Compare to the divide in Romulan culture, a weird mirror image of the Federation, the openness of the warrior nuns are the minority vs the more traditional Romulan secrecy and stoicism. There's even a deeper division between the Tal Shiar (the Romulan Section 31?) and the Zhat Vash. Is there a deeper group within Section 31?

Going further out into left field, we have the stark contrast of abundance and scarcity - Picard's chateau vs Raffi's trailer, the Federation in general vs the relocated Romulans.

Finally organic vs synthetic, with the Borg sitting in the middle as a hybrid of both in a way.

I am interested to see where they go with this show.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

MarkB said:


> So, something that occurred to me last episode, which I haven't seen much speculation about - though admittedly I do try to avoid most of the more speculative sites to avoid spoilers.
> 
> The first scene we see of Rios, where he's got the piece of shrapnel in his shoulder, didn't much stand out for me at the time - it seemed like just a slightly overblown way of suggesting that he was a bit of a badass. But as we've seen all of his identically-faced emergency holograms, seemingly for every function of the ship, it did creep up on me that the shrapnel scene would be an excellent way for someone to establish themselves to a newcomer as definitely being a real, flesh-and-blood person, should they feel a need to do so.
> 
> What are the chances that we're ultimately going to find that Rios himself is just another holographic personality, on a starship that is essentially running itself? I know he talks about sleeping and dreaming, but I feel like an EMH that had been left running for long enough might adopt such practices, either deliberately or as a developing personality quirk, perhaps to serve much the same function of memory-sorting that dreams do for humans.
> 
> And it would certainly fit the running themes of the series very well.



It is a possibility that he's just a hologram, too, but the other possibliity is that whatever happened on his old ship meant that he had lost a lot of people and thus fears surrounding himself with real people, particularly people he likes. (He seems to complain a lot about his holograms).



> I find myself mulling about the similarities between the Federation and the Romulans. Too often the Federation seems to have a secret cabal working within it. And there is the "open" secret cabal of Section 31. Compare to the divide in Romulan culture, a weird mirror image of the Federation, the openness of the warrior nuns are the minority vs the more traditional Romulan secrecy and stoicism. There's even a deeper division between the Tal Shiar (the Romulan Section 31?) and the Zhat Vash. Is there a deeper group within Section 31?



Well, Tal'Shiar might have been a secret police, but she wasn't actually a secret organization. It was more or less common knowledge it existed. 
So I think the more accurate equivalent for the Tal'Shiar is actually Starfleet Intelligence, and Section 31 is the Federation's equivalent of the Zhat Vash (at least in regards to secrecy, not necessarily organizational structure or history.)



> Going further out into left field, we have the stark contrast of abundance and scarcity - Picard's chateau vs Raffi's trailer, the Federation in general vs the relocated Romulans.



I think however it's wrong to interpret Picard's chateau and Raffi's trailer as a purely economical thing. It might have a lot more to do with how they were able to deal with the ends of their career - it's psychology, not economy. Picard didn't go in a downward spiral, he took over the vinyard and started writing books. But Raffi didn't deal with it so "well". She isolated herself, became basically depressed due to her situation, and her living arrangements is not a sign of being financially poor off, but being emotionally poor off, and making a concious or unconcious choise to live as she does. She is envious that Picard _seems _to have such an easy time dealing with it - but in truth, he didn't actually respond well to it, either. As he said himself, he has not really been living, he had been waiting to die. Raffi picked up some weed and conspiracy theory chasing, Picard took on the Vinyard and his books, but both area really just trying to distract themselves from their frustrations.

I figure a lot of the story of Picard is about these people's emotional journey and their need to find a purpose for their life (I guess this conceit makes it difficult for some people to like the show, too. Star Trek is usually about a hopeful future, and traditionally, hope is restored at the end of an episode or maybe a two-parter - but this journey might take the entire season - if not the entire full 3 seasons they apparently have outlined for Picard.)


----------



## Sadras

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I figure a lot of the story of Picard is about these people's emotional journey and their need to find a purpose for their life (*I guess this conceit makes it difficult for some people to like the show*, too. Star Trek is usually about a hopeful future, and traditionally, hope is restored at the end of an episode or maybe a two-parter - but this journey might take the entire season - if not the entire full 3 seasons they apparently have outlined for Picard.)




Emphasis mine - Nope, it is because it is so badly written.

"You know what this crew needs? Someone with a sword. I know a guy..."
Every party needs an Elf Monk, right? The only good thing out of this is that some D&D nerds are being paid for their hack writing and love for space elves. People have to make a living afterall.

And yet, he has not one but two former Romulan special forces agents with years of training, contacts and direct insight and intel on their enemy but they can stay back home and vacuum the sitting room. Good stuff!


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Sadras said:


> And yet, he has not one but two former Romulan special forces agents with years of training, contacts and direct insight and intel on their enemy but they can stay back home and vacuum the sitting room. Good stuff!




I don't agree overall that it's badly written, but this bit sure doesn't make much sense.


----------



## Dire Bare

Sadras said:


> And yet, he has not one but two former Romulan special forces agents with years of training, contacts and direct insight and intel on their enemy but they can stay back home and vacuum the sitting room. Good stuff!




Yes, it's so badly written that it's one of the more popular streaming shows right now. Okay. It has plot holes, sure . . . I've never watched a Trek episode or movie without them.

Picard never asks his Romulan friends/employees to come along, and perhaps we should have gotten a few lines as to why. I can think of plenty of reasons that mesh fine with the plot, so it doesn't bother me, but it is certainly a small plot hole.


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> I don't agree overall that it's badly written, but this bit sure doesn't make much sense.



When they asked him about contacting some of his old buddies from the Enterprise, Picard told Laris and Zhaban that he knew any of them would gladly put their lives on the line for him, but that he very much didn't want to go through that again with people he cared about so deeply. After living with them for over a dozen years, I'm sure that sentiment extends to Laris and Zhaban themselves too. Picard is almost certainly much happier knowing that they're staying behind to clean up the mess and keep things running in his absence.


----------



## Mallus

MarkB said:


> When they asked him about contacting some of his old buddies from the Enterprise, Picard told Laris and Zhaban that he knew any of them would gladly put their lives on the line for him, but that he very much didn't want to go through that again with people he cared about so deeply.



Bingo. It's made clear Picard is refraining from asking the people he cares about the most to accompany him. This includes Laris and Zhaban at this point in his life (but not, for instance, Raffi, whose relationship with JL is... complicated). He doesn't want to drag his former Tal Shiar friends back into that life -- outside of a quick trip to Boston -- and knows it would put a strain on Laris and Zhaban's relationship. He's unwilling to do that.

This isn't particularly flattering to Jean-Luc, this whiff of calculation of personal emotional _expendability_, who he is comfortable burdening, endangering even, and who he is not. But it's definitely intentional.

It's also ranks as one of the most insightful things Star Trek has said about getting old since The Wrath of Khan.


----------



## MarkB

Sadras said:


> Every party needs an Elf Monk, right? The only good thing out of this is that some D&D nerds are being paid for their hack writing and love for space elves. People have to make a living afterall.



I have to admit, I do like the concept of an honour-bound warrior who will only fully commit to a cause if it's a hopeless cause. It feels very paladin-y, in a good way - almost worthy of its own Oath.


----------



## bloodtide

Epsiode five was good!  Special guest star Seven of Nine steals the show...and has mean old man Picard just sit down and be quiet.

And look, she turns out to be the ''Dr. Smith" of the group...wow very unshocking.


----------



## Mallus

A caper on Planet Seastead featuring phaser fire, pimp hats, and the observation that to be fully human is to lie to yourself and others... that was a rather unusual episode of Star Trek! But not a bad one.

However, this combination of flamboyant pulp and emotional intelligence is threatening to turn Picard into Farscape: The Next Generation.


----------



## Vael

Mallus said:


> However, this combination of flamboyant pulp and emotional intelligence is threatening to turn Picard into Farscape: The Next Generation.




You say that like it's a bad thing. Rios needs to either lose his shirt more or get some leather pants if he's going to match up against Crichton though. I encourage him to try.

Anyway, a solid episode, I do hope we get more Seven. I was sorry to see Icheb go like that, that was a gory end.

It's definitely interesting seeing these worlds outside the Federation's control, Freecloud was intriguing.


----------



## Mallus

Vael said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing. Rios needs to either lose his shirt more or get some leather pants if he's going to match up against Crichton though. I encourage him to try.



Heh... I meant it as high praise. I love Farscape. And “Braca, do these pants make my ass look fat?” is one of the best, of not finest, lines of dialog spoken in televised science fiction (though I might be paraphrasing a bit).



> It's definitely interesting seeing these worlds outside the Federation's control, Freecloud was intriguing.



I definitely want to see more stories told in this era of the Federation, and I’m still a bit surprised that one of the strongest elements of Picard is the worlbuilding.


----------



## Raunalyn

The last episode was ok...but I had a problem with a pretty big plot hole.

The crew goes down to the planet "disguised." Picard puts on an eyepatch and pretends to be a bounty hunter ("I'm french! Why do you think I have this outrageous accent!"). 

How is it that one of the most famous people in the Federation (and one who had just had a widely publicized interview that was critical of Starfleet) was able to pull off such a ridiculous disguise and not be recognized?


----------



## Ryujin

Raunalyn said:


> The last episode was ok...but I had a problem with a pretty big plot hole.
> 
> The crew goes down to the planet "disguised." Picard puts on an eyepatch and pretends to be a bounty hunter ("I'm french! Why do you think I have this outrageous accent!").
> 
> How is it that one of the most famous people in the Federation (and one who had just had a widely publicized interview that was critical of Starfleet) was able to pull off such a ridiculous disguise and not be recognized?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

A few thoughts on the new episode:

1: Reminds me of some of the old episodes where non-Starfleet characters wore insanely ridiculous costumes. And the ones where Picard plays over-the-top characters. It was silly, but Star Trek has always been silly at times. Though it's particularly weird when you remember that Picard is actually supposed to be French.

2: I guess Rios is NOT a hologram. Too bad. I liked that idea. But I don't think you can be a hologram and have someone surprise inject you with hormones.

3: So maybe we were thinking of the wrong member of Picard's Motley Crew being an AI. Is Dr. Jurati a Synth? (Like Soongh's ex-wife?) Did Commodore Oh reprogram her like whoever did the Mars Synths? Or did she just (as is implied in the episode) give her some kind of proof that this all needs to be stopped?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Raunalyn said:


> How is it that one of the most famous people in the Federation (and one who had just had a widely publicized interview that was critical of Starfleet) was able to pull off such a ridiculous disguise and not be recognized?




I dunno, take someone like Meg Ryan (hasn't been in anything I've seen in years) and put her at a costume party in, I dunno, Winnipeg. Put her in the SAME costume as Picard. It probably wouldn't matter if she'd just been on the View. Most people would probably not recognize her. 

Besides, Picard was on an interview critical of Starfleet. Notorious on Earth, I'm sure, but does anyone in Freecloud care about that? 

I mean, it's certainly risky, but it's not impossible that no one there would notice him. Silly bit of episode, though, I agree.


----------



## Raunalyn

FitzTheRuke said:


> 3: So maybe we were thinking of the wrong member of Picard's Motley Crew being an AI. Is Dr. Jurati a Synth? (Like Soongh's ex-wife?) Did Commodore Oh reprogram her like whoever did the Mars Synths? Or did she just (as is implied in the episode) give her some kind of proof that this all needs to be stopped?




The latter...she says that she's seen what's going to happen and she's terrified.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Raunalyn said:


> The latter...she says that she's seen what's going to happen and she's terrified.




Sure. And aside from this betrayal everything in the show has been quite straightforward - it's not a big-twist kind of show.


----------



## Raunalyn

FitzTheRuke said:


> Sure. And aside from this betrayal everything in the show has been quite straightforward - it's not a big-twist kind of show.



I suspected she was working for Commodore Oh several episodes back when she showed up at Picard's villa after mysteriously having somehow gotten a Romulan disrupter from a highly trained assassin.


----------



## Ryujin

Raunalyn said:


> I suspected she was working for Commodore Oh several episodes back when she showed up at Picard's villa after mysteriously having somehow gotten a Romulan disrupter from a highly trained assassin.




At the time that looked convenient, but could have been fobbed off as taken from one of the assassins Picard shot through the doorway (if I'm remembering correctly). Now, not as sure.

(EDIT - OK, quite sure that she was injected into the situation)


----------



## Mort

Raunalyn said:


> I suspected she was working for Commodore Oh several episodes back when she showed up at Picard's villa after mysteriously having somehow gotten a Romulan disrupter from a highly trained assassin.




The second Picard met her, something seemed off. At first I thought maybe I was reacting to the actress (Didn't like her in The Newsroom) but then I thought, no, the character is clearly hiding a bunch and is being played like she has a secret agenda.


----------



## Mallus

I think it's pretty clear that Dr. Jurati is being used by Oh and is, or at least was, exactly what she appeared to be until the Commodore co-opted her. Agnes is not a very good spy & assassin, hence the psychological crisis as she was carrying out her mission. I'm fairly sure she has no training and simply scooped up a dead assassins gun at the chateau.

But I'm not sure where you go with the character from here. She's recently come into a lot of guilt to process and/or atone for, and given how much guilt the rest of the crew has been hauling around for years, they probably won't be much help, coping-wise.

Is this going to end in a climatic spaceship battle followed by a climatic group therapy session? Signs are pointing to yes...


----------



## cbwjm

Maybe the EMH will finally have a chance to shine.


----------



## Mort

Mallus said:


> I think it's pretty clear that Dr. Jurati is being used by Oh and is, or at least was, exactly what she appeared to be until the Commodore co-opted her. Agnes is not a very good spy & assassin, hence the psychological crisis as she was carrying out her mission. I'm fairly sure she has no training and simply scooped up a dead assassins gun at the chateau.




I think that's likely, though she seemed to know a lot more than she was telling in her initial meeting with Picard too.

Her actions are pretty final though - and unless the show goes through some extreme shenanigans - the rest of the crew will know exactly what she did - interesting to see how the show comes back from that!



Mallus said:


> But I'm not sure where you go with the character from here. She's recently come into a lot of guilt to process and/or atone for, and given how much guilt the rest of the crew has been hauling around for years, they probably won't be much help, coping-wise.
> 
> Is this going to end in a climatic spaceship battle followed by a climatic group therapy session? Signs are pointing to yes...




Yeah, even more than Discovery, every single character is packing some serious background baggage.


----------



## MarkB

Mort said:


> Her actions are pretty final though - and unless the show goes through some extreme shenanigans - the rest of the crew will know exactly what she did - interesting to see how the show comes back from that!



That was my initial thought, but while she's no spy, she is a gifted computer scientist with a specialisation in artificial intelligence. It's conceivable that she could fake the medical records and override the EMH.


----------



## Mort

MarkB said:


> That was my initial thought, but while she's no spy, she is a gifted computer scientist with a specialisation in artificial intelligence. It's conceivable that she could fake the medical records and override the EMH.




Certainly true.

But Rios (and even more so Raffi) are written as the paranoid type. Rios is likely to have a backup camera or equivalent.

Well, we'll find out next week. After getting used to the Netflix model, it's nice to have some anticipation for a change.


----------



## MarkB

Mort said:


> Certainly true.
> 
> But Rios (and even more so Raffi) are written as the paranoid type. Rios is likely to have a backup camera or equivalent.
> 
> Well, we'll find out next week. After getting used to the Netflix model, it's nice to have some anticipation for a change.



Yeah, I rather suspect that even if she does get away with it initially, the game will be up once Raffi stops hiding in her room.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

cbwjm said:


> Maybe the EMH will finally have a chance to shine.




I keep thinking, "Geez. If I had a therapist pop up every time I'm feeling overwhelmed, I sure as hell wouldn't shut it off."

... But then, people on TV always seem to think that Talking About Things is BAD.


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> 2: I guess Rios is NOT a hologram. Too bad. I liked that idea. But I don't think you can be a hologram and have someone surprise inject you with hormones.



That part isn't so problematic. Holographic characters are often used as sexual partners, so being able to react realistically to having fluids injected into them is a basic design feature.

However, fooling both a security scanner and alien super-olfactory-powers would probably be going a little too far.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> That part isn't so problematic. Holographic characters are often used as sexual partners, so being able to react realistically to having fluids injected into them is a basic design feature.
> 
> *However, fooling both a security scanner and alien super-olfactory-powers would probably be going a little too far.*




Was there a mention of how many senses that being had?


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> Was there a mention of how many senses that being had?



Only that he could tell whether you were lying, what you'd had for breakfast, and who you last had sex with.

Then again, even super-sense-of-smell aliens need to relax sometimes. I don't think there's ever been any on-screen discussion of holosuites' olfactory capabilities, but presumably they're built to be as capable of simulating scent as they are at stimulating the other four senses, and they must be built to accommodate a wide variety of alien sensory capabilities, given that they'll be serving clientele of many species.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Hussar said:


> I thought they didn't have them because they got destroyed.
> 
> Sure, Bajor had an issue.  But, the Romulans have many, many planets outside of their homeworld.  And, they had more than a couple of years to evacuate their homeworld as well.  You'd think they'd have the capacity that after more than 14 years on a planet, they would at least be able to pave the streets and not live in shanty towns.
> 
> *I guess it would have been too expensive to make more than one set*.




The expenses of this show has been reported in the hundred of millions...how the frak did it get that far? How reshoots were done _reportedly up to Eps #7_ How may Executive Producers does a show need? Given the fact that SH had rented Prime Trek items at the beginning of the show, and later reduced their use as the show continued. How much money was CBS charging SH?


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> Only that he could tell whether you were lying, what you'd had for breakfast, and who you last had sex with.
> 
> Then again, even super-sense-of-smell aliens need to relax sometimes. I don't think there's ever been any on-screen discussion of holosuites' olfactory capabilities, but presumably they're built to be as capable of simulating scent as they are at stimulating the other four senses, and they must be built to accommodate a wide variety of alien sensory capabilities, given that they'll be serving clientele of many species.




Andddd...just review the scene with the Freighter captain--that humanoid individual has over *1253* olfactory senses. Seriously? The term overwhelming should be in effect.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> Andddd...just review the scene with the Freighter captain--that humanoid individual has over *1253* olfactory senses. Seriously? The term overwhelming should be in effect.



1253 olfactory receptor genes. Which is a pretty meaningless number, since we don't really know how many genes are directly related to olfactory senses in humans.

If the line had been about actual olfactory _receptors_, that number would be ridiculously low. Humans have around 6 million receptors, while dogs have up to 300 million.

EDIT: With some googling, apparently we do know how many olfactory genes humans have - apparently it's in the mid-hundreds. Which would make the Beta Annari's senses only maybe 3-4 times more discerning than our own.


----------



## Kaodi

You know it is kinda funny - that there is a "Beta Annari" who is an enforcer for a lookalike for TNG's half-Betazoid. (A)nnari vs Z(oid), the inverse alphabet. And the Beta Annari even has super sense that allow him to tell what others are feeling in a way!


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> 1253 olfactory receptor genes. Which is a pretty meaningless number, since we don't really know how many genes are directly related to olfactory senses in humans.
> 
> If the line had been about actual olfactory _receptors_, that number would be ridiculously low. Humans have around 6 million receptors, while dogs have up to 300 million.
> 
> EDIT:* With some googling, apparently we do know how many olfactory genes humans have - apparently it's in the mid-hundreds. Which would make the Beta Annari's senses only maybe 3-4 times more discerning than our own.*




Amazing...just super powered amazing.


----------



## Morrus

So I really like the Picard stuff, but I shut off when we go to the Bor(in)g Cube. And it seems the stuff I like is headed to the stuff I don’t like.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> So I really like the Picard stuff, but I shut off when we go to the Bor(in)g Cube. And it seems the stuff I like is headed to the stuff I don’t like.




I've been growing increasingly bored with it myself. When it first showed up, with that sign about "xxxx days since the last assimilation" I thought "Ooooh, THAT's not gonna last!".... but it has.


----------



## Morrus

I do like this show and look forward to it each week. But I’ve realised that to me Star Trek = Star Fleet. While I understand that the universe contains far more than Federation starships, what I like most about Star Trek is the stuff with Federation starships. That’s the ‘universe’ I’ve been invested in since I was a kid. It’s a bubble in a large universe, but Star Trek has always been that bubble.

I guess what I’m saying is — gimme a proper starship! I love big Starfleet starships!


----------



## Kaodi

I wonder if the climax of the season might see them _confronted_ by the current Enterprise.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> I do like this sow and look forward to it each week. But I’ve realised that to me Star Trek = Star Fleet. While I understand that the universe contains far more than Federation starships, what I like most about Star Trek is the stuff with Federation starships. That’s the ‘universe’ I’ve been invested in since I was a kid. It’s a bubble in a large universe, but Star Trek has always been that bubble.
> 
> I guess what I’m saying is — gimme a proper starship! I love big Starfleet starships!



The ship they have is functional enough, but it doesn't have much screen presence. I literally could not tell you what it's called right now without looking it up.


----------



## Vael

MarkB said:


> The ship they have is functional enough, but it doesn't have much screen presence. I literally could not tell you what it's called right now without looking it up.




The ship is called La Sirena, but I don't think anyone has actually named it in dialogue in the show, I only know from Memory Alpha.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Morrus said:


> I do like this show and look forward to it each week. But I’ve realised that to me Star Trek = Star Fleet. While I understand that the universe contains far more than Federation starships, what I like most about Star Trek is the stuff with Federation starships. That’s the ‘universe’ I’ve been invested in since I was a kid. It’s a bubble in a large universe, but Star Trek has always been that bubble.
> 
> *I guess what I’m saying is — gimme a proper starship! I love big Starfleet starships!*




That will come down to what licenses were rented by SH to be used...for their variant show of Trek. Oh yes, they had to pay, but the latest word whispered...in truth. That Kurtzman reduced the use of such renting, which would lend to the premise of greater reduction of Prime Trek ships or references. As the story currently constructed, it is about Picard's journey...or dismantling of him. If you want to see Ships, watch any Trek show or movie, before 2009.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Kaodi said:


> I wonder if the climax of the season might see them _confronted_ by *the current Enterprise.*




The question comes to mind, to which Enterprise would show up, Prime Trek or Discovery era type...the betting money is on the latter. If that happens.


----------



## Morrus

Truth Seeker said:


> The question comes to mind, to which Enterprise would show up, Prime Trek or Discovery era type...the betting money is on the latter. If that happens.



It would be one we haven't seen yet, presumably?


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> So I really like the Picard stuff, but I shut off when we go to the Bor(in)g Cube. And it seems the stuff I like is headed to the stuff I don’t like.



I was disappointed that we didn't get our regularly-scheduled Borg Cube interlude last episode. I like Soji, and her empathetic journey to understanding the ex-Borg and finding out about the secrets of the assimilated Romulans.

I'm not so keen on Narek, and I really don't like his sister or the weird relationship they have going on.



Vael said:


> The ship is called La Sirena, but I don't think anyone has actually named it in dialogue in the show, I only know from Memory Alpha.



It was mentioned briefly, when they got landing clearance at Freecloud. but the name just didn't stick in my mind. I hadn't realised that was the first time it was mentioned.


----------



## Vael

Truth Seeker said:


> The question comes to mind, to which Enterprise would show up, Prime Trek or Discovery era type...the betting money is on the latter. If that happens.




Neither. The question is which Enterprise is in commission, is the Enterprise-E still in service, or another letter?

I'd point out though that the holograms of various Enterprises at Star Fleet Command in episode 2 did show the Discovery model of the original Enterprise.


----------



## Hussar

Having anyone able to turn off the EMH seems like a pretty bad idea. Just from a safety perspective.  Sure, I can see the crew of a ship being entrusted with it, but, the doctor isn't crew.  She's just a passenger.  Being able to shut down an EMH in the middle of treating an obviously distressed patient just seems ... off.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hussar said:


> Having anyone able to turn off the EMH seems like a pretty bad idea. Just from a safety perspective.  Sure, I can see the crew of a ship being entrusted with it, but, the doctor isn't crew.  She's just a passenger.  Being able to shut down an EMH in the middle of treating an obviously distressed patient just seems ... off.



She is part of the crew of the ship for now. She even gets to use the transporter, which can be a far higher security risk than shutting off an EMH.

The EMH is... an emergency program. If a crew member says there is no emergency to take care off and turns him off, he better do exactly that. We really don't want some holograms interfering with ship operations. They are supposed to support the crew, not stand in their way.


----------



## Ryujin

Vael said:


> Neither. The question is which Enterprise is in commission, is the Enterprise-E still in service, or another letter?
> 
> I'd point out though that the holograms of various Enterprises at Star Fleet Command in episode 2 did show the Discovery model of the original Enterprise.




I think the only Enterprise we've seen in an appropriate time frame was Enterprise D, with a third nacelle, but that was in a Q influenced timeline.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I think it ought to be the Enterprise G. Skip F - too loaded a letter. Make it cool.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Vael said:


> Neither. The question is which Enterprise is in commission*, is the Enterprise-E still in service*, or another letter?
> 
> I'd point out though that the holograms of various Enterprises at Star Fleet Command in episode 2 did show the *Discovery model* of the original Enterprise.



Just heard that a recent Novel (dealing with Picard) release, has the Sovereign class Enterprise was in service, under the command of* Worf*. 

Yes, that was indeed the model of Enterprise, from the Discovery era, not TOS. And the Galaxy Class shown, that was a variant. _If you watch and slow down the 1st eps of STP, there is a missed alternation on the lower front Keel of the ship, just below the saucer section_. And yes, it was a dream sequence, but there was small minor change to the look of the ship _and it does include Ten Forward windows and seating arrangements_


----------



## Truth Seeker

Morrus said:


> It would be one we haven't seen yet, presumably?




Or might not...technically the Name of Enterprise was still on the Sovereign class, as per the new novel release dealing with Picard and the Romulans upcoming sun nova situation. Worf was given command. and later Picard got an early version of the Odyssey Class. We do not know as of now if the Sovereign class is still active in the time of 2399.


----------



## Vael

Truth Seeker said:


> Just heard that a recent Novel (dealing with Picard) release, has the Sovereign class Enterprise was in service, under the command of* Worf*.
> 
> Yes, that was indeed the model of Enterprise, from the Discovery era, not TOS. And the Galaxy Class shown, that was a variant. _If you watch and slow down the 1st eps of STP, there is a missed alternation on the lower front Keel of the ship, just below the saucer section_. And yes, it was a dream sequence, but there was small minor change to the look of the ship _and it does include Ten Forward windows and seating arrangements_




Worf, from what I've heard, haven't read the book, was given command 14 years ago, when Picard left to run the mission to evacuate the Romulans. We don't know the current status of the Enterprise-E, whether she's still in commission and who is currently in command.

As to the second paragraph ... I do not understand, what the point of this observation?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Vael said:


> Worf, from what I've heard, haven't read the book, was given *command 14 years ago*,* when Picard left to run the mission to evacuate the Romulans*. We don't know the current status of the Enterprise-E, whether she's still in commission and who is currently in command.
> 
> As to the second paragraph ... I do not understand, what the point of this observation?



Picard was ordered to step down from the Sovereign Enterprise, by Starfleet Command, the premise was that it didn't look proper from a visual standpoint, to have a Federation Warship in Romulan space, leading the evacuation. _Information came from a YouTube podcast about the book_

As for the dream sequence of Enterprise D, I was finally able to snip cut the scene and saw the difference.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> Picard was ordered to step down from the Sovereign Enterprise, by Starfleet Command, the premise was that it didn't look proper from a visual standpoint, to have a Federation Warship in Romulan space, leading the evacuation. _Information came from a YouTube podcast about the book_



That seems like an odd concern, given that it was the Enterprise-E under Picard's command which resolved their unfortunate Reman coup situation and prompted the negotiations which led to their state of peace with the Federation as of the supernova crisis. If anything, the Enterprise-E should be a symbol of peace to the Romulans.

However, that ship has been through a lot. It would have required effectively a complete re-fit after the events of First Contact in order to strip out any dangerous Borg technology, then lost its warp core during Insurrection, and would have needed to be practically rebuilt from the keel up after its ramming maneuver during Nemesis. It's unlikely that it would still be in service around 20 years later.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> *That seems like an odd concern,* given that it was the Enterprise-E under Picard's command which resolved their unfortunate Reman coup situation and prompted the negotiations which led to their state of peace with the Federation as of the supernova crisis. If anything, t*he Enterprise-E should be a symbol of peace to the Romulans.*
> 
> However, that ship has been through a lot. It would have required effectively a complete re-fit after the events of First Contact in order to strip out any dangerous Borg technology, then lost its warp core during Insurrection, and would have needed to be practically rebuilt from the* keel up after its ramming maneuver during Nemesis*. It's unlikely that it would still be in service around 20 years later.




Well, considering how the material has been written for this _current_ Trek, please keep in mind...this is the version of events being manufactured by Secret Hideout, via other media sources.

The book gives more details, since the tv showing is lacking in deeper explanation--it is pointed out that having a Warship of that nature, will portray a sense of 'invasion' to the Romulan people, therefore SF didn't want any outstanding issues. Again, this is the narrative from SH.

Starship longevity...here is a *Sample 1* of such discussions.

*Sample 2*

*Sovereign Class*

*SC Lifespan*, scroll down a bit, to see the described lifespan.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> Well, considering how the material has been written for this _current_ Trek, please keep in mind...this is the version of events being manufactured by Secret Hideout, via other media sources.
> 
> The book gives more details, since the tv showing is lacking in deeper explanation--it is pointed out that having a Warship of that nature, will portray a sense of 'invasion' to the Romulan people, therefore SF didn't want any outstanding issues. Again, this is the narrative from SH.



So, what you are saying is that the sequence of events in this show is the sequence of events that's been written by the writers of this show. That seems self-evident - why are you wording it as being controversial?


----------



## bloodtide

All of Star Trek, except DS9 and Disco are about the Federation Starfleet.  We see Starfleet people that are the Best of the Best.  Most of the time the crew members of the flagship of the Federation, but then even most ''average" Starfleet people are fairly good.  While not everyone in Starfleet is perfect, they are all good, honest, CLASSICALLY moral and classically decent people.  They, by far, only have silly ''first world" type problems: they can't get a date or their mom is annoying.  

Of course, there is a whole galaxy we never see.......the parts we are seeing now on Picard.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> So, what you are saying is that the sequence of events in this show is the sequence of events that's been written by the writers of this show. *That seems self-eviden*t - why are you wording it as being controversial?




I never said it was controversial directly...in none of my past posts. Just pointing out that the method of divesting the bulk of needed info, into other formats, has been by them as early  as 2009, before that...it was never done at all. The ability to give an explanation as to why things are the way they are...through comic books, novels or other media...is just weak to me. And that is my opinion. It is just a marketing ploy for attention, but is the substance of it, needed or worthy on having?


----------



## Truth Seeker

bloodtide said:


> All of Star Trek, except DS9 and Disco are about the Federation Starfleet.  We see Starfleet people that are the Best of the Best.  Most of the time the crew members of the flagship of the Federation, but then even most ''average" Starfleet people are fairly good.  While not everyone in Starfleet is perfect, they are all good, honest, CLASSICALLY moral and classically decent people.  They, by far, only have silly ''first world" type problems: they can't get a date or their mom is annoying.
> 
> *Of course, there is a whole galaxy we never see.......the parts we are seeing now on Picard*.




The parts we are being shown...I suspect are near Romulan space or just beyond, as per the statement made that Neutral Zone is no more. The next installment will be in said space. And I am curious to how deep this Artifact location is placed. But we will not know, cause there is no visible Star Map being shown....but except for the slighty Blurred one in the Admiral's Office.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> Starship longevity...here is a *Sample 1* of such discussions.
> 
> *Sample 2*
> 
> *Sovereign Class*
> 
> *SC Lifespan*, scroll down a bit, to see the described lifespan.



To pick up on this, most of the articles you linked seem to be discussing the longevity of a _class_ of starship. I didn't see anything significant there about how long an individual vessel would be expected to remain in service.



Truth Seeker said:


> I never said it was controversial directly...in none of my past posts. Just pointing out that the method of divesting the bulk of needed info, into other formats, has been by them as early  as 2009, before that...it was never done at all. The ability to give an explanation as to why things are the way they are...through comic books, novels or other media...is just weak to me. And that is my opinion. It is just a marketing ploy for attention, but is the substance of it, needed or worthy on having?



So far, there's been no instance of "needed info" being restricted to comics or other media. Whenever something's become relevant in the show, it's been explained in the show. I.e. the fact that Laris and Zhaban are former Tal Shiar agents who Picard helped out during the evacuation, or the more detailed look we got of the Mars attack.

Certainly, these media provide a deeper look at some things, but I don't see how that's relevant. Would you instead require them to be meaningless puff pieces that conveyed nothing at all? Or do you simply want them to not even exist?

Personally, I haven't read any novels or comics related to the Picard series, nor seen the Children of Mars special, and I haven't yet found myself feeling that I'm lacking information vital to my understanding of the plot. On the other hand, if I do ever go and read those other sources, I would be very disappointed if I found that they had nothing new of interest to offer me.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> To pick up on this, most of the articles you linked seem to be discussing the longevity of a _class_ of starship. I didn't see anything significant there about how long an individual vessel would be expected to remain in service.
> 
> 
> So far, there's been no instance of "needed info" being restricted to comics or other media. Whenever something's become relevant in the show, it's been explained in the show. I.e. the fact that *Laris and Zhaban are former Tal Shiar agents who Picard helped out during the evacuation, or the more detailed look we got of the Mars attack.*
> 
> Certainly, these media provide a deeper look at some things, but I don't see how that's relevant. Would you instead require them to be meaningless puff pieces that conveyed nothing at all? Or do you simply want them to not even exist?
> 
> *Personally, I haven't read any novels or comics related to the Picard series*1*, nor seen the Children of Mars special 2, and I haven't yet found myself feeling that I'm lacking information vital to my understanding of the plot. On the other hand, if I do ever go and read those other sources, I would be very disappointed if I found that they had nothing new of interest to offer me.*





Ah...but their origin was comic book first...not the show.

Same boat..._1_ 

It was not exciting to watch _2_

_Agreed_


----------



## Morrus

Truth Seeker said:


> I never said it was controversial directly...in none of my past posts. Just pointing out that the method of divesting the bulk of needed info, into other formats, has been by them as early  as 2009, before that...it was never done at all. The ability to give an explanation as to why things are the way they are...through comic books, novels or other media...is just weak to me. And that is my opinion. It is just a marketing ploy for attention, but is the substance of it, needed or worthy on having?



It's standard practice these days. Blame Star Wars for making it so.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Morrus said:


> It's standard practice these days. Blame Star Wars for making it so.




Wait...is this in reference for the last set of SW films? If so...then yeah.


----------



## Mallus

bloodtide said:


> All of Star Trek, except DS9 and Disco are about the Federation Starfleet.  We see Starfleet people that are the Best of the Best.  Most of the time the crew members of the flagship of the Federation, but then even most ''average" Starfleet people are fairly good. While not everyone in Starfleet is perfect, they are all good, honest, CLASSICALLY moral and classically decent people.



Quibble: there are quite a few TOS episodes where Federation/Starfleet people screw up to entertaining effect - like when they turn a planet into Nazis or build a captain-replacing supercomputer with their psychological flaws baked into the kernel. It's usually the crew onboard ships named 'Enterprise' that are reliably good.

Also, DS9 has a lot of Starfleet officers as principle characters and everyone on DISCO is Starfleet.



> Of course, there is a whole galaxy we never see.......the parts we are seeing now on Picard.



It's nice to see the parts of the Star Trek universe where you can wear leather pants, pimp hats, and an eyepatch!


----------



## Raunalyn

I am getting the strong impression that the show is leaning toward the Romulans being tied to the Borg, perhaps as their creators? 

I'm not sure I like that idea. I've always liked the theory that V'ger was responsible for the Borg, and vice versa. What I mean by that is that when V'ger encountered the machine planet, said machines began doing like V'ger and looking to evolve/expand...which created the Borg.


----------



## Hussar

Raunalyn said:


> I am getting the strong impression that the show is leaning toward the Romulans being tied to the Borg, perhaps as their creators?
> 
> I'm not sure I like that idea. I've always liked the theory that V'ger was responsible for the Borg, and vice versa. What I mean by that is that when V'ger encountered the machine planet, said machines began doing like V'ger and looking to evolve/expand...which created the Borg.




Not sure where that is coming from, and it would be pretty difficult unless they're going to really reject Voyager canon.  Voyager talks about the early days of the Borg and the fact that the Borg originate in the Delta quadrant.  

But, that said, I am very interested to see just exactly why the Romulans have such a hate on for AI.  

It is really interesting to see that Borg tech is now a hotly traded commodity.  One does have to wonder just how much Federation and Alpha Quadrant technology would change because of it.  My only problem though is that they've kinda sanitized the Borg.  Previously, Borg were the implacable enemy - any Borg piece could reactivate and begin making more Borg.  Kinda like the Cybermen in Doctor Who.  The only way to make sure they were actually gone would be to basically nuke them from orbit.  

Not sure I like this new approach.


----------



## Mallus

Hussar said:


> Not sure I like this new approach.



I don't like it either, but I also feel like Voyager did such a thorough job defanging & demystifying the Borg that that ship has already sailed (at warp 9.89) a long time ago.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Raunalyn said:


> *I am getting the strong impression that the show is leaning toward the Romulans being tied to the Borg, perhaps as their creators*?
> 
> I'm not sure I like that idea. I've always liked the theory that V'ger was responsible for the Borg, and vice versa. What I mean by that is that when V'ger encountered the machine planet, said machines began doing like V'ger and looking to evolve/expand...which created the Borg.




Judging from the angle being played in the story, using the Romulans as the possible contributors, is the highly possible theme to use, why is this so? Because...besides the Klingons story already being told from TOS, TNG and the Movies, the Romulans' arc was in small pieces in all of that, and it wasn't enough. So, they are picked to be the ones, this will tie in with the Future Control probe seen Discovery, and the beginning growing pains of Control to become a full _AI_ seen in the last parts of the Season 2 in STD.

This is the narration they are pushing, cause they can't give a solid storyline, to how things are. I am no longer excited for this premise...cause they mired up badly with Discovery and now we got this with STP. They want to replace Prime Trek timeline and Universe  with this *Wreck.*..but it will come down to how they execute this in the time they have left.

Kurtzman has maybe a year or two left on his contract, his Section 31 seems to be going nowhere, and the two anima shows should be showing up soon.  And almost forgot, Paramount did not renew the Movie license portion from last July.

So, if they are angling for the Romulans to be the creator of the Borg...let them, cause it is their frakkin' sandbox, which at one point, can be replaced with a something better, hopefully down the road.

And by the way CBS/Paramount are quietly aware of this...none of this is gaining traction in the numbers they are seeking.


----------



## trappedslider

Truth Seeker said:


> Kurtzman has maybe a year or two left on his contract, his Section 31 seems to be going nowhere, and the two anima shows should be showing up soon.  And almost forgot, Paramount did not renew the Movie license portion from last July.



Looks like we're gonna get slammed with Star Trek Star Trek: New Movie, Two New Series, and More Confirmed in the Works

and as for Section 31 it seems filming will start once STD's next season is done New 'Star Trek' series 'Section 31' to start filming when 'Discovery' season 3 wraps


----------



## Truth Seeker

trappedslider said:


> Looks like we're gonna get slammed with Star Trek Star Trek: New Movie, Two New Series, and More Confirmed in the Works
> 
> and as for Section 3*1 it seems filming will start once* STD's next season is done New 'Star Trek' series 'Section 31' to start filming when 'Discovery' season 3 wraps




Well it better get cracking, the *Writers Strike* looms in May...


----------



## Ryujin

trappedslider said:


> Looks like we're gonna get slammed with Star Trek Star Trek: New Movie, Two New Series, and More Confirmed in the Works
> 
> and as for Section 31 it seems filming will start once STD's next season is done New 'Star Trek' series 'Section 31' to start filming when 'Discovery' season 3 wraps




All that's missing is a Start Trek: The Reality Show. Rent out the "Star Trek Original Series Tour" set and run "Kobayashi Maru" scenarios, on camera, with regular folk.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Ryujin said:


> All that's missing is a Start Trek: The Reality Show. Rent out the "Star Trek Original Series Tour" set and run "Kobayashi Maru" scenarios, on camera, with regular folk.




"Engage" - the Star Trek stage musical... "Ehn... gaaaaaaage!"


----------



## trappedslider

Ryujin said:


> Rent out the "Star Trek Original Series Tour" set and run "Kobayashi Maru" scenarios, on camera, with regular folk.




I'd take part in that "shoot the transport,it's a trap!"


----------



## Janx

bloodtide said:


> All of Star Trek, except DS9 and Disco are about the Federation Starfleet.  We see Starfleet people that are the Best of the Best.  Most of the time the crew members of the flagship of the Federation, but then even most ''average" Starfleet people are fairly good.  While not everyone in Starfleet is perfect, they are all good, honest, CLASSICALLY moral and classically decent people.  They, by far, only have silly ''first world" type problems: they can't get a date or their mom is annoying.
> 
> Of course, there is a whole galaxy we never see.......the parts we are seeing now on Picard.




This point stuck in my mind and then I ran across one of Steve Shrive's videos. This one about how seven of nine was more than eye candy.  Among many points, about midway in the video, he talks about the Voyager episode where Seven discovers that the crew wiped a memory from the Doctor because he freaked out over having to choose who lived and died.   Shrives points out how this episode shifted the paradigm of the Starfleet folks are always right, looking on as outsiders at others being close minded and wrong by making Janeway voice the beliefs that the Doctor isn't a person (despite 4+ seasons of him saving everybody)


So maybe, part of the problem is that some folks are uncomfortable seeing the guys in the white hats be on the wrong side of history. For failing to live up to what Picard argued to Q that we'd risen up to our better nature. It's understandable, I don't want the good guys to be failing like this either. But everybody stumbles and falls.  The question is, do they get back up again?


----------



## Hussar

One article I saw about the latest STP episode was that it would have been completely impossible to write this under Roddenberry and his "No conflict within the crew" directives.  I think that folks that really liked Roddenberry style Trek are having a real problem with the changes in newer Trek shows.

Then again, I've never, ever understood the need to hate watch things.  If you don't like a show, don't watch it.  It's not like you're not spoiled for choice.


----------



## Morrus

Hussar said:


> Then again, I've never, ever understood the need to hate watch things.  If you don't like a show, don't watch it.  It's not like you're not spoiled for choice.




We're working on that with the [+] thread rules we'll be talking about very soon.


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> One article I saw about the latest STP episode was that it would have been completely impossible to write this under Roddenberry and his "No conflict within the crew" directives.  I think that folks that really liked Roddenberry style Trek are having a real problem with the changes in newer Trek shows.



They were already breaking those rules as far back as DS9 and, as pointed out, Voyager. In DS9 Starfleet is often at loggerheads with the Bajorans or other factions, they make some terrible compromises in setting up the Cardassian demilitarised zone, and their own citizens and officers defect to the Maquis - and in most cases there's no definitive "right or wrong" conclusion to these things, and Starfleet's moral stance is often left either shaky or entirely lacking.

I always get puzzled when people throw out the "not real Star Trek" arguments about Discovery and, lately, Picard on account of people having actual disagreements and Starfleet not being perfect. It's like "where have you been for the past 25+ years?"


----------



## Morrus

MarkB said:


> I always get puzzled when people throw out the "not real Star Trek" arguments about Discovery and, lately, Picard on account of people having actual disagreements and Starfleet not being perfect. It's like "where have you been for the past 25+ years?"




Yeah. Star Trek hasn't been like TNG since TNG ended. In 1994.


----------



## Hussar

And, really, before that.  Even TNG stepped off the Roddenberry train after Season 3 when he stopped having anything to do with the show.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Hussar said:


> Then again, I've never, ever understood the need to hate watch things.  If you don't like a show, don't watch it.  It's not like you're not spoiled for choice.




I mean, there's obviously crazy people on the internet who love to hate everything, but there's also another group: People who love Star Trek and really WANT to love the show, but for various reasons, good or bad, don't.

Personally, I really like Picard so far. I DIDN'T like the first Season of Discovery - or more correctly, I _nearly_ liked it, and was really frustrated by the stuff that I didn't like. I don't particularly care about Roddenberry one way or the other, and I don't entirely mind conflict among the crew.

However, I really think that Star Fleet officers ought to have at least a basic understanding of effective communication skills. I LOATHE the way many TV shows (Disco 1 did this) have the conflict result from what seems like very basic miscommunications. No one talks, no one listens. That stuff frustrates the **** out of me.

Most of these problems were fixed (or at least done better, IMO) in Discovery Season Two, and so far, I don't mind most of what's been done that way in Picard.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> Then again, I've never, ever understood the need to hate watch things.  If you don't like a show, don't watch it.  It's not like you're not spoiled for choice.




When it comes to a property that you're emotionally invested in, that was a part of your formative years, think of it as desperately needing to love it but failing miserably. Love and hate are not opposites.


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> When it comes to a property that you're emotionally invested in, that was a part of your formative years, think of it as desperately needing to love it but failing miserably. Love and hate are not opposites.



That was Voyager and then Enterprise for me. And I was so-so on DS9, which was more wooden than a school play. As far as I’m concerned I’m in a golden age! I’ve not loved Trek this much since the 1990s!


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> That was Voyager and then Enterprise for me. And I was so-so on DS9, which was more wooden than a school play. As far as I’m concerned I’m in a golden age! I’ve not loved Trek this much since the 1990s!




I can completely understand that. I'm pretty much the other way 'round, except for "Picard." We like what we like.

Current rumours are that the next show they'll spawn is Pike, during the Enterprise years. Possibly wishful group-think, but...


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> Current rumours are that the next show they'll spawn is Pike, during the Enterprise years. Possibly wishful group-think, but...



Fingers crossed.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Ryujin said:


> Current rumours are that the next show they'll spawn is Pike, during the Enterprise years. Possibly wishful group-think, but...




That would be awesome - and 100% Trek to me.


----------



## Hussar

Ryujin said:


> When it comes to a property that you're emotionally invested in, that was a part of your formative years, think of it as desperately needing to love it but failing miserably. Love and hate are not opposites.




Like I said, I just don't get it.  I wasn't a fan of Voyager (particularly the last few seasons), so, I just didn't watch it.  Or, basically only watched it if nothing else was on.  Same with Enterprise (except for the last season which was some of the best Star Trek ever on TV).  Again, I just didn't watch it.

I do not understand getting this emotionally invested in a TV show.  Or series of TV shows.  I understand being pissed that the new show isn't something you like.  I stopped watching Battlestar Galactica after the third season because I just found it unwatchable and that was disappointing.  But, forcing myself to watch something I know I don't like, and then coming online to spend time standing on a rooftop to shout how much I don't like it?  That's a bit too masochistic and narcissistic, even for me.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> Like I said, I just don't get it.  I wasn't a fan of Voyager (particularly the last few seasons), so, I just didn't watch it.  Or, basically only watched it if nothing else was on.  Same with Enterprise (except for the last season which was some of the best Star Trek ever on TV).  Again, I just didn't watch it.
> 
> I do not understand getting this emotionally invested in a TV show.  Or series of TV shows.  I understand being pissed that the new show isn't something you like.  I stopped watching Battlestar Galactica after the third season because I just found it unwatchable and that was disappointing.  But, forcing myself to watch something I know I don't like, and then coming online to spend time standing on a rooftop to shout how much I don't like it?  That's a bit too masochistic and narcissistic, even for me.




Season 3 was what I kept watching Enterprise for, hoping that it would get there.


----------



## Mort

Ryujin said:


> Season 3 was what I kept watching Enterprise for, hoping that it would get there.




Season 3 was when they brought on Manny Coto - who did amazing things for Enterprise.

I just wish they had let him do the 4th season series finale instead of Berman and Braga! The show would have left the air with a much better send off.


----------



## Ryujin

Mort said:


> Season 3 was when they brought on Manny Coto - who did amazing things for Enterprise.
> 
> I just wish they had let him do the 4th season series finale instead of Berman and Braga! The show would have left the air with a much better send off.




Less Xindi would have made it more betterer. Episodes centring on exploration of the unknown tended to be the best. Anything that involved inter-species politics between the ultimate founding members of the UFP was good and should have been what the show was about, from the beginning. They could have started with the Romulan War rather than the Temporal Cold War crap, or the Xindi, given there was so much previous canon available on the former.

Much of season three and the bulk of season 4 was what I was hoping for, from the beginning.


----------



## Mallus

Enterprise is my least favorite Trek by a fairly wide margin, but if season 4 had been season 1 it could have been one hell of a show.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Mort said:


> *Season 3 *was when they brought on Manny Coto - who did amazing things for Enterprise.
> 
> I just wish they had let him do the 4th season series finale instead of* Berman and Braga! *The show would have left the air with a much better send off.




Wasn't that Season 4 for Manny?

And for those other two, it was finally admitted that ending for Enterprise was a BAD mistake, I caught a audio file or description of a interview. Berman made that admission. It doesn't mean still, I forgive him.


----------



## Truth Seeker

trappedslider said:


> Looks like we're gonna get slammed with Star Trek Star Trek: New Movie, Two New Series, and More Confirmed in the Works
> 
> *and as for Section 31 *it seems filming will start once STD's next season is done New 'Star Trek' series 'Section 31' to start filming when 'Discovery' season 3 wraps




*UPDATE*--Now delayed to* 2021.*


----------



## Raunalyn

Mallus said:


> Enterprise is my least favorite Trek by a fairly wide margin, but if season 4 had been season 1 it could have been one hell of a show.



I really enjoyed season 1. I thought the show had a lot of promise. Sadly, season 2 went downhill and I lost interest.


----------



## Mort

Truth Seeker said:


> Wasn't that Season 4 for Manny?




He was brought on in season 3 and stayed through season 4, but he had no credited part in the finale (though, who knows, star trek  scripts often went through a large number of un-credited polishes and rewrites.)



Truth Seeker said:


> And for those other two, it was finally admitted that ending for Enterprise was a BAD mistake, I caught a audio file or description of a interview. Berman made that admission. It doesn't mean still, I forgive him.




Yes, and frankly it's not always easy to know whether something is awesome or a dud when writing, filming or even editing. Those two seemed to honestly believe that it was a "love letter to the fans," right up until the fans told them how much they hated it.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Mort said:


> *He was brought on in season 3* and stayed through season 4, but he had no credited part in the finale (though, who knows, star trek  scripts often went through a large number of un-credited polishes and rewrites.)
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and frankly it's not always easy to know whether something is awesome or a dud when writing, filming or even editing. Those two seemed to honestly believe that it was a "love letter to the fans," right up until the fans told them how much they hated it.




Yupe...he was brought in as a *Writer*, did 14 episodes in Season 3, given Director rein in Season 4, and yes, the last one was usurped by BB and his twin. And he did try to get a Season 5, but was told No.


----------



## Mallus

Raunalyn said:


> I really enjoyed season 1. I thought the show had a lot of promise. Sadly, season 2 went downhill and I lost interest.



I should watch the first season of ENT again. I just went through the 4th season prior to the Picard debut -- stopping before the finale, of course -- so maybe it's just fresher in my memory.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Mallus said:


> Enterprise is my least favorite Trek by a fairly wide margin, but if season 4 had been season 1 it could have been one hell of a show.




I keep trying to watch it, and foolishly I have always started from the beginning, and I've never made it all the way to Season 4. Everyone tells me I should, but I've twice now fallen off at the beginning of Season 3. The Xindi Evil Round Table kills me every time.


----------



## Mort

FitzTheRuke said:


> I keep trying to watch it, and foolishly I have always started from the beginning, and I've never made it all the way to Season 4. Everyone tells me I should, but I've twice now fallen off at the beginning of Season 3. The Xindi Evil Round Table kills me every time.




If you haven't yet - watch In a Mirror Darkly (18th and 19th episode of the 4th season). It's completely irrelevant to the overall plot arc of the show, but from the opening credits onward it's just really fun!


----------



## Raunalyn

Mort said:


> If you haven't yet - watch In a Mirror Darkly (18th and 19th episode of the 4th season). It's completely irrelevant to the overall plot arc of the show, but from the opening credits onward it's just really fun!



I have a weird head canon that the Temporal Time war hinted at in Enterprise is the cause of the mirror universe


----------



## Ryujin

Mort said:


> If you haven't yet - watch In a Mirror Darkly (18th and 19th episode of the 4th season). It's completely irrelevant to the overall plot arc of the show, but from the opening credits onward it's just really fun!




I would go as far as to refer to it as Big Dumb Fun. Two episode arc, if I remember correctly.

_EDIT_ Of course it's two episodes. You said as much. DOH!


----------



## Truth Seeker

Returning back to the point of discussion dealing with Picard.

Did anyone hear the reference from Maddox, that *he and Soong did it* Was he referring that Soong was around to help him build the twin?


----------



## Raunalyn

Truth Seeker said:


> Returning back to the point of discussion dealing with Picard.
> 
> Did anyone hear the reference from Maddox, that *he and Soong did it* Was he referring that Soong was around to help him build the twin?



Now I'm going to have to go back and re-watch.

It could also be a misinterpretation. Soong created twins (Lor and Data...well, there was also B4), and so did Maddox.

This leaves an interesting question...could there also be three that Maddox made?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Raunalyn said:


> Now I'm going to have to go back and re-watch.
> 
> It could also be a misinterpretation. Soong created twins (Lor and Data...well, there was also B4), and so did Maddox.
> 
> This leaves an interesting question...could there also be three that Maddox made?





Yipe- He said. "We did it Agnes, Soong and I and you' referring to Agnes...


----------



## Beleriphon

Truth Seeker said:


> Returning back to the point of discussion dealing with Picard.
> 
> Did anyone hear the reference from Maddox, that *he and Soong did it* Was he referring that Soong was around to help him build the twin?




I suspect that could be a reference to using Soong's process/research to create their own.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Beleriphon said:


> I suspect that *could be a reference to using Soong's process/research* to create their own.




He didn't speak in the past tense, he spoke as if Soong was around and Angus helped them with the work.

He spoke as potentially that Soong was bodily present at the creation of the Twin. There was no past tense mention use of Soong's work.

Okay...doing some number crunching here... 

2341-Bruce Maddox protested the Academy entry of Data. Measure of a Man--Commander Maddox sought out Data again/2365. Soong's death occurred around 2367. Lore is deactivated 2370. Nemesis with Data's Full Death/2379.  2380/Maddox made Captain Rank and was able to retain the body of B4. STP is at 2399.

The Twin came online at 2396.


----------



## Beleriphon

Truth Seeker said:


> 2341-Bruce Maddox protested the Academy entry of Data. Measure of a Man--Commander Maddox sought out Data again/2365. Soong's death occurred around 2367. Lore is deactivated 2370. Nemesis with Data's Full Death/2379.  2380/Maddox made Captain Rank and was able to retain the body of B4. STP is at 2399.
> 
> The Twin came online at 2396.




So, somewhere betweeen 2365 and 2367 Maddox and Soong met and did something?


----------



## Raunalyn

Beleriphon said:


> So, somewhere betweeen 2365 and 2367 Maddox and Soong met and did something?



No, I don't think so...

I rewatched the episode last night. The line being referred to is "We did it Angus, Soong and I and you."

I still think that this is being misinterpreted. The way I see it, he's saying that they created artificial life; first  Soong, then he and Agnes. I don't think that they encountered him and did it together.


----------



## Beleriphon

Raunalyn said:


> I still think that this is being misinterpreted. The way I see it, he's saying that they created artificial life; first  Soong, then he and Agnes. I don't think that they encountered him and did it together.




That was my original take away as well.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Beleriphon said:


> So, somewhere betweeen 2365 and 2367 *Maddox and Soong met* and did something?




To add further--Soong was off the grid, his work was private and  was never advertise to the  whole galaxy or to the quadrants. If there were a meeting of sorts, it had to be in a novel. I am not aware if that was written out.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> To add further--Soong was off the grid, his work was private and  was never advertise to the  whole galaxy or to the quadrants. If there were a meeting of sorts, it had to be in a novel. I am not aware if that was written out.



Traditionally, unlike Star Wars with its Expanded Universe, there was never any real shared 'canon' in Star Trek spin-off fiction, so it would have to be something recent, if at all. And if it were recent and canonical, it would already have been updated to sources such as Memory Alpha.


----------



## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> Traditionally, unlike Star Wars with its Expanded Universe, there was never any real shared 'canon' in Star Trek spin-off fiction, so it would have to be something recent, if at all. And if it were recent and canonical, it would already have been updated to sources such as Memory Alpha.




Yeah, pretty sure that things like the TOS crew creating a whole new universe never made it into canon


----------



## Omand

Just one small chime, but it is bugging me.  It is Agnes, not Angus.  Agnes Jurati.  Yes, Maddox's speech is somewhat mumbled due to his injuries/medical status, but he is talking to Agnes.

/Rant Off


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> Traditionally, unlike Star Wars with its Expanded Universe, there was never any real shared 'canon' in Star Trek spin-off fiction, so it would have to be something recent, if at all. And if it were recent and canonical, it would already have been updated to sources such as Memory Alpha.




Actually there was a share 'canon' piece in TNG, I found out listening to a podcast...when Picard met Spock's father aboard the Enterprise. Picard made mention on seeing Spock at his Wedding to Savvik---The novel--Vulcan Heart- Episode 23/Sarek--in Season 3


----------



## Truth Seeker

Wow...this latest eps was dragging.


----------



## Raunalyn

Omand said:


> Just one small chime, but it is bugging me.  It is Agnes, not Angus.  Agnes Jurati.  Yes, Maddox's speech is somewhat mumbled due to his injuries/medical status, but he is talking to Agnes.
> 
> /Rant Off



Yes, but it does sound like he calls her Angus at several points. So much so that my Closed Captioning for the episode even showed Angus.


----------



## Beleriphon

Raunalyn said:


> Yes, but it does sound like he calls her Angus at several points. So much so that my Closed Captioning for the episode even showed Angus.




Yeah, but she introduces herself to Picard as Agnes Jurati.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> Actually there was a share 'canon' piece in TNG, I found out listening to a podcast...when Picard met Spock's father aboard the Enterprise. Picard made mention on seeing Spock at his Wedding to Savvik---The novel--Vulcan Heart- Episode 23/Sarek--in Season 3



Given that the novel The Vulcan's Heart was published in 1999, nine years after the episode Sarek, I think you may be misinformed on that one.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> Given that the novel The Vulcan's Heart was published in 1999, nine years after the episode Sarek, I think you may be misinformed on that one.




Interesting...so, that line in the show,,,.became a book 9 years later. *just found that scene with Riker as they were walking towards the transporter room to meet Sarek and his entourage'

And no, was not misinformed, just didn't know the time frame of the book placement...thank you for that clarity.


----------



## cbwjm

Watched the latest episode and it was awesome. Picard beaming over to the cube and his reaction to being their was really well done. The action in escaping was pretty cool. We learned more about romulan culture. I like who Hugh has become, he seems like a great guy.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> Interesting...so, that line in the show,,,.became a book 9 years later. *just found that scene with Riker as they were walking towards the transporter room to meet Sarek and his entourage'
> 
> And no, was not misinformed, just didn't know the time frame of the book placement...thank you for that clarity.



I meant you were misinformed about it being an example of shared canon. A novel being based on facts previously established in the show doesn't make it canonical - it only works if it happens the other way around.


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> I meant you were misinformed about it being an example of shared canon. A novel being based on facts previously established in the show doesn't make it canonical - it only works if it happens the other way around.




Understood.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

cbwjm said:


> Watched the latest episode and it was awesome. Picard beaming over to the cube and his reaction to being their was really well done. The action in escaping was pretty cool. We learned more about romulan culture. I like who Hugh has become, he seems like a great guy.




I really liked it too. Well structured, a lot of interesting information presented. A lot of heart. (If you're going to make a lot of conflict among the characters, IMO you have to balance it with characters having each other's backs, otherwise it's just miserable. This episode struck a good balance to me.)


----------



## Ryujin

Loving it overall. If there's one niggling thing, it's the parade of cameos. It would be nice if they stuck around for a while, rather than just one episode.


----------



## Mallus

A few random thoughts...

As of right now, Jean-Luc getting hugs on a Borg cube ranks as one of my favorite moments in the franchise.

I'm still not very interested in the Section 31 series starring Michelle Yeoh, but I'd watch the hell of it if it starred Allison Pill as Agnes Jurati, thrill-seeking emotional wreck and half-assed assassin/spy who just can't go back to her old life as a nice STEM girl with questionable taste in boyfriends -- have I forgiven Bruce Maddox for trying to dissect Data? No. Not even in death.

The fade-to-black with "Please friends, choose to live" was fantastic.

The trajector from that Voyager episode? Nice.

Soji and Narek's relationship -- between a possibly sentimental ruthless manipulator and a possible hyper-destructive outwardly harmless person who doesn't know who they are -- could be made into, like, a dozen different indie films, only about a quarter of which end in murders.

Forget Icheb losing an eye. Everyone on La Sirena clapping after Rafii burns the last bridge to her nearly last friend is the most violent scene in Picard, so far.

So the show's a meditation on aging, guilt, identity, and refugee crises? I'll allow it... and by 'allow' I mean 'pay $10/month for the fancy, commercial-free version' (which is in Dolby Vision through Apple?).


----------



## Hussar

Yeah, gotta say that this was a great episode.  

And watching Picard's reactions on the Borg cube is one hell of a lot of acting.  Good grief, there were points where Patric Stewart didn't even look like himself, his face was so twisted in pain.  Just fantastic.


----------



## bloodtide

This was a much better episode.  Picard having trauma, emotions and reactions to the whole Borg events of his life is all good.  

But it feels like it should be a whole other show.

We sat through the whole miss-characterization of Picard as a whinny boy that wanted to save the Romulans for NO REASON AT ALL(other then it was written as part of the dumb story).

Worse, every episode after the first has been ''oh we need to go save the other one" and 'we must hurry", AND THEN they sit around and waste time doing stupid stuff.  

Like the Romulans have had the Artifact Cube for years at least.  And Picard knew about it.  And yet Picard just sat at home and cried ''oh the poor Romulans, Starfleet has changed so much"?  Wonder why he never tried to go to the Cube?  Even Hugh mentions this would be a great idea.  Hummm


----------



## MarkB

bloodtide said:


> This was a much better episode.  Picard having trauma, emotions and reactions to the whole Borg events of his life is all good.
> 
> But it feels like it should be a whole other show.
> 
> We sat through the whole miss-characterization of Picard as a whinny boy that wanted to save the Romulans for NO REASON AT ALL(other then it was written as part of the dumb story).



You mean, other than because he's a good person and it was the right thing to do?



> Worse, every episode after the first has been ''oh we need to go save the other one" and 'we must hurry", AND THEN they sit around and waste time doing stupid stuff.
> 
> Like the Romulans have had the Artifact Cube for years at least.  And Picard knew about it.  And yet Picard just sat at home and cried ''oh the poor Romulans, Starfleet has changed so much"?  Wonder why he never tried to go to the Cube?  Even Hugh mentions this would be a great idea.  Hummm



Why would he try to go to the cube? It's pretty obviously the last place in the galaxy he'd ever want to visit, if he didn't have to. He literally has zero motivation to go there other than the fact that Soji's there. Which he only found out at the end of last episode.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Really liked this episode. This is the first time that Picard set foot on a Borg Cube since the Best of Both Worlds, and they gave it the weight it deserved. 

I also really liked Rios here, and maybe we got more insight into him then before, the way he deals with Raffi and Agnes. (He's empathic and sensitive- in the non-mindreader way, of course)



Mallus said:


> So the show's a meditation on aging, guilt, identity, and refugee crises?



Certainly a significant part of it, yes. I feel like it's also about dealing and perhaps overcoming with pain of past mistakes. But I suppose that might be part of aging already..


----------



## Morrus

bloodtide said:


> We sat through the whole miss-characterization of Picard as a whinny boy that wanted to save the Romulans for NO REASON AT ALL(other then it was written as part of the dumb story).




...



> Wonder why he never tried to go to the Cube?




For NO REASON AT ALL, presumably.


----------



## DammitVictor

bloodtide said:


> Wonder why he never tried to go to the Cube?  Even Hugh mentions this would be a great idea.  Hummm




I mean, did you miss the part where Rafii told her old friend she needed diplomatic credentials for Picard to go to the Cube... and her friend _laughed out loud_ and asked her where he was really going?

There is literally nowhere else Picard _could_ go that he would not _rather_ have gone.


----------



## Beleriphon

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I also really liked Rios here, and maybe we got more insight into him then before, the way he deals with Raffi and Agnes. (He's empathic and sensitive- in the non-mindreader way, of course)




Raffi is his friend, so presumably he has a pretty good read on her. Agnes however. I'm wondering if pearhps we'll learn he isn't human, or not entirely human.


----------



## Kaodi

I am excited to learn the history of the Zhat Vash - which seems like it is central to this whole story. Did they exist before the Romulans split from the Vulcans? And if so did they have anything directly to do with that split? Did any element of the Zhat Vash philosophy persist afterwards within the Vulcans? And of course why (and how) are they so scared of Soji in particular given that that assimilated Romulan seemed to indicate there was a difference between her and Daj?


----------



## Morrus

Is it just two more eps?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> Is it just two more eps?




Four. That was Ep6. There's 10!


----------



## bloodtide

Soji is the Destroyer daughter a Lore, she will kill all natural life....that is what the Zhat Vash (and their founder the R. Daniel rip off) fear.  That is my guess.


----------



## Morrus

bloodtide said:


> Soji is the Destroyer daughter a Lore, she will kill all natural life....



Blimey. That sounds like an abrubt end to the franchise!


----------



## Truth Seeker

bloodtide said:


> Soji is the Destroyer daughter a Lore, she will kill all natural life....that is what the Zhat Vash (and their founder the R. Daniel rip off) fear.  That is my guess.




Well, if this version of the story is going that way...then I accept this as a pocket universe from Secret Hideout. Upon finishing, will be put away and forgotten.


----------



## Hussar

What's an "R. Daniel"?


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> What's an "R. Daniel"?



I Guess he means Daneel Olivaw, the humaniform robot from Asimov's Elijah Bailey novels, and one of the main inspirations for Data's character. Notably, it was Asimov who came up with the term "positronics" as the basis of robotic brains in his stories.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Well, after rewatching STP # 6...still dragged out, until the meet up with Hugh, that was the best part.

STP # 7---Say goodbye to Hugh.


----------



## Beleriphon

Truth Seeker said:


> Well, after rewatching STP # 6...still dragged out, until the meet up with Hugh, that was the best part.
> 
> STP # 7---Say goodbye to Hugh.




Maybe, maybe not. Elnor seeams thoroughly bad ass.


----------



## Mallus

Beleriphon said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Elnor seeams thoroughly bad ass.



I'll bet 10 quatloos and a strip of gold-pressed latinum that Elnor makes it (he better!). Speaking of gambling, what do you think the odds are Soji becomes the Borg cube's new queen by the end of episode 10?

I mean, it's pretty clear that Maddox used pilfered Borg technology to create Soji & Dahj, right? And the trajector being housed in the 'queen cell' has to mean something, as does Soji's space cultural anthropology degree. She's going to be a less hivemindful, more consent-based 'queen' of the xBs.


----------



## Beleriphon

Mallus said:


> I'll bet 10 quatloos and a strip of gold-pressed latinum that Elnor makes it (he better!). Speaking of gambling, what do you think the odds are Soji becomes the Borg cube's new queen by the end of episode 10?




I hope not for Soji, mostly because that doesn't strike me as the setup they're going for. 

As for Elnor, why invest in all the character setup and then kill him off screen? They killed Icheb (I didn't even know how that was!).


----------



## Mallus

Beleriphon said:


> I hope not for Soji, mostly because that doesn't strike me as the setup they're going for.



Where do you see them going with Soji? Future crew member on La Sirena? 

I admit, whenever her story ends up, I'd kinda like to see her sister resurrected/rebooted/MacOS Time Machined back to life via fractal neuronal deus ex machina. 

Call me old-fashioned, but a little resurrection among friends is a Star Trek tradition.


----------



## Ryujin

I don't see them making the Borg Cu..., ummm, the "Artifact" such a big thing without there being some Borgification, at some point. But I'm just cynical.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Ryujin said:


> I don't see them making the Borg Cu..., ummm, the "Artifact" such a big thing without there being some Borgification, at some point. But I'm just cynical.



I am not sure. The interesting aspect is that Soji wasn't investigating some advanced Borg tech or anything. She was looking into the Romulans that got assimilated. So maybe the Artifact is really just the backdrop, basically, something that uniquely affects the characters and is very particular to Star Trek, but still just one way you can find out about some of the deeper secrets of the Romulans. 
Presumably, the secret has something to do with why some Romulans hate or fear Synths so much. Maybe it still all goes back to the Borg, and maybe Soji is the first Borg Queen or whatever, but it doesn't seem to fit - the Borg are cyborgs, they aren't synthetics. I believe in one of the TNG Borg episodes they seemed to consider Data a dead end. Their whole motivation in striving for perfection isn't particular fitting either to Soji's, Data's or even Lore's ambitions in life. Maybe it fits Soong family ethos a bit, it seems both the ENT era Soong and Noonien Soong seemed to dream of a "better" lifeform with Augments and Androids.


----------



## MarkB

Beleriphon said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Elnor seeams thoroughly bad ass.



I'm pretty sure Hugh just wore out his welcome as director of the reclamation project, so maybe he'll transport out to the La Sirena with Elnor. Then maybe we get to see how their ship fares against Romulan Birds of Prey that aren't a century out of date.


----------



## Beleriphon

MarkB said:


> I'm pretty sure Hugh just wore out his welcome as director of the reclamation project, so maybe he'll transport out to the La Sirena with Elnor. Then maybe we get to see how their ship fares against Romulan Birds of Prey that aren't a century out of date.




I'd guess not well. That said, it looked mostly like smaller scout craft from some of the establishing shots. I don't think Narek was delivered on a full sized Bird of Prey, but I'm sure that would be intentional.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Beleriphon said:


> I hope not for Soji, mostly because that doesn't strike me as the setup they're going for.
> 
> As for Elnor, why invest in all the character setup and then kill him off screen? They killed Icheb (I didn't even know how that was!).



The same can be said for Maddox, name mentioned throughout the beginning of the series...and offed by his 'lover', death smothered over with ease. Just a means to further the plot.


----------



## Hussar

I have to admit, the death of Maddox is a HUGE plot hole.  The EMH witnessed Maddox dying and being deactivated.  Wouldn't there be any report to the captain at all?  The EMH's are usually intelligent enough to detect foul play.  

But, that aside, people are forgetting something here.  This is different story telling from other versions of Star Trek.  This is serial fiction, not episodic.  This is basically just one really long episode.  Thought about  that way, killing off characters isn't all that surprising.  Everyone is a red shirt in this show.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Hussar said:


> I have to admit, the death of Maddox is a HUGE plot hole.  The EMH witnessed Maddox dying and being deactivated.  Wouldn't there be any report to the captain at all?  The EMH's are usually intelligent enough to detect foul play.




They probably should have at least had her say something like "Computer, Deactivate EMH. Erase current medical record." Or something. I agree that it should be on file. Though maybe it is, it's not like we've seen the EMH since, have we? This deception shouldn't last for long before it's discovered, or they ought to show her doing more to keep it under wraps.


----------



## Rabulias

Ryujin said:


> I don't see them making the Borg Cu..., ummm, the "Artifact" such a big thing without there being some Borgification, at some point. But I'm just cynical.




Heh. Chekhov's Borg Cube.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Hussar said:


> I have to admit, the death of Maddox is a HUGE plot hole.  The EMH witnessed Maddox dying and being deactivated.  Wouldn't there be any report to the captain at all?  The EMH's are usually intelligent enough to detect foul play.
> 
> But, that aside, people are forgetting something here.  This is different story telling from other versions of Star Trek.  This is serial fiction, not episodic.  This is basically just one really long episode.  Thought about  that way, killing off characters isn't all that surprising.  *Everyone is a red shirt in this show*.




Nah...that color is black


----------



## Truth Seeker

Just found out that hugging scene between Picard and Hugh, was not written in the script, not thought of by the producer, or prompted by the director.

It was by the actor playing Hugh...give the reason why it should happen and Patrick went along with it.

Frak!!! It going to hurt!!! 

UPDATE---Hugh is saved by the Frakkin' Treaty!!!! YES!!!

And NO!!!! Hugh is gone!!!! FRAKKIN HELL!!!


----------



## cbwjm

I guess we know where Riker falls on the Kirk vs. Picard debate.


----------



## MarkB

Another set of cameos this episode, and a welcome one. So nice to see them still together and settled down.



Rabulias said:


> Heh. Chekhov's Borg Cube.



Yes, and Elnor just took it down from the mantelpiece. Looks like he'll be handing it over to Seven of Nine to pull the trigger.


----------



## Mort

Enjoyed almost all of the most recent episode.

Really liked the interaction between Troi, Riker and Picard. It was great finally having characters that could and did call him out on his BS (but gently and mostly with affection).

I liked Soji's questioning of everything, makes perfect sense considering the circumstances. I also liked that Picard wasn't handling her attitude well, despite some progress, he's clearly still not great with Children - and that's essentially what she still is.

Annoyances:

Narissa, the Romulan, is just too cartoonishly evil. The Romulans seem to have a real reason for doing what they're doing, having someone so snarlingly evil, and not the least sympathetic , is just a waste.

Having Riker and Troi's tragedy be linked to the Synthetic ban seemed a bit much. The writers don't need to scream IT'S ALL CONNECTED quite so loud!


----------



## Mallus

I’m sure I’ll have something more to say tomorrow, but right now all I have is: that was great!

Oh, and “is it cake?” is now my favorite line of dialogue ever spoken by a terrible assassin.


----------



## Raunalyn

I have to say that this is possibly my favorite episode so far. I really like how Picard and Soji are developing as characters, and Riker and Troi were both welcome as voices of compassion and reason. And the glimpses of this foretold disaster are interesting too...I am going to have to go back and watch that part again to see if I can pick out specifics.


----------



## Beleriphon

Raunalyn said:


> I have to say that this is possibly my favorite episode so far. I really like how Picard and Soji are developing as characters, and Riker and Troi were both welcome as voices of compassion and reason. And the glimpses of this foretold disaster are interesting too...I am going to have to go back and watch that part again to see if I can pick out specifics.




One of the planets blowing up is Earth. That said, I was expecting a bit more. It isn't like we as an audience haven't seen the proposed robot apocalypse before.

Also, do we think Agnes was trying to kill herself, or risking it to stop being tracked?


----------



## Raunalyn

Beleriphon said:


> Also, do we think Agnes was trying to kill herself, or risking it to stop being tracked?




From the previews of next week's episode, I'm inclined to believe the latter.


----------



## Beleriphon

Raunalyn said:


> From the previews of next week's episode, I'm inclined to believe the latter.




I thought so as well, but I'll just have to see. Also, Kestra, wasn't that Troi's sister's name as well?


----------



## Raunalyn

Beleriphon said:


> I thought so as well, but I'll just have to see. Also, Kestra, wasn't that Troi's sister's name as well?



It was indeed.


----------



## Kaodi

So it looks like the Commodore Oh is very likely to be an actual Vulcan and not a deep cover Romulan, given that she can mind meld. That certainly leaves Zhat Vash being a pre-split organization on the table, doesn't it?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Kaodi said:


> So it looks like the Commodore Oh is very likely to be an actual Vulcan and not a deep cover Romulan, given that she can mind meld. That certainly leaves Zhat Vash being a pre-split organization on the table, doesn't it?



Yes, she is most definitely a Vulcan, but that was a very FORCED Mind Meld. And that approach was very undisciplined for a Vulcan to do.


----------



## Ryujin

Truth Seeker said:


> Yes, she is most definitely a Vulcan, but that was a very FORCED Mind Meld. And that approach was very undisciplined for a Vulcan to do.




Didn't ask permission; just did it.


----------



## Morrus

Loved that episode! Though the aging process makes me sad. Both Frakes and Sirtis are approaching 70. I guess that’s one of the themes of this show.


----------



## MarkB

There was a nice reference in the episode which I missed until my second viewing. When Riker activates the house defences, he mentions that they'd been having some trouble with the Kzinti recently. They're a race of warlike catfolk created by Larry Niven as part of his Known Space fictional setting. They became a canonical race in Star Trek after Niven adapted one of his short stories as a script for an episode of the Star trek animated series.


----------



## Hussar

Morrus said:


> Loved that episode! Though the aging process makes me sad. Both Frakes and Sirtis are approaching 70. I guess that’s one of the themes of this show.




Yeah, it's kinda sobering to watch these actors, who I grew up with, now.  I ADORED the back and forth between Riker and Picard - as equals now.  Riker was perfectly willing to call Picard out on his naughty word, as was Troi and this really hit home how much time had past in the show.  A completely different dynamic - much more like adult children dealing with a parent than the old power dynamic of captain and crew.  

That was some damn fine writing.

On the mind meld thing - I'm really fuzzy now, but, wasn't there something in ST Enterprise when they were first sort of exploring the whole mind meld thing, about how there was a faction of Vulcans who were ostracized for practicing mind melds but then being a bit forceful about it?  Been a long time.  But, there is something rattling around in the back of my brain where there have been Vulcans who have been kinda mind rapey about using mind melds.  

Or is this just something my brain is fabricating.  Stupid brain.  Must punish it with more alcohol.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> Yeah, it's kinda sobering to watch these actors, who I grew up with, now.  I ADORED the back and forth between Riker and Picard - as equals now.  Riker was perfectly willing to call Picard out on his naughty word, as was Troi and this really hit home how much time had past in the show.  A completely different dynamic - much more like adult children dealing with a parent than the old power dynamic of captain and crew.
> 
> That was some damn fine writing.
> 
> On the mind meld thing - I'm really fuzzy now, but, wasn't there something in ST Enterprise when they were first sort of exploring the whole mind meld thing, about how there was a faction of Vulcans who were ostracized for practicing mind melds but then being a bit forceful about it?  Been a long time.  But, there is something rattling around in the back of my brain where there have been Vulcans who have been kinda mind rapey about using mind melds.
> 
> Or is this just something my brain is fabricating.  Stupid brain.  Must punish it with more alcohol.




In ST:Enterprise they came across members of the mind melding minority who were also experimenting with emotion. During this episode T'Pol was 'mentally raped' by a mind melder that she had been befriending. This is how she acquires Pa'nar Syndrome, which plays a part in later episodes.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Truth Seeker said:


> Yes, she is most definitely a Vulcan, but that was a very FORCED Mind Meld. And that approach was very undisciplined for a Vulcan to do.



Considering that they couldn't really communicate before to that level, can we say Spock had the Horta's consent to perform a mind meld? And we can probably all agree that Valeris was not consenting when Spock conducted a mind meld to get information about the anti-Klingon Alliance conspiracy.  Heck, even McCoy didn't express consent to get Spock's katra in his head. The Vulcan Maquis also didn't have consent when she tried to extract information from Dukat.
I suppose Spock might have always been an undisciplined Vulcan, but it could also be that post-ENT era Vulcans are a lot less coy in using mind melds when it suites their agenda.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Okay, now siting the Preview and a possible arc for the rest of show.

FYI--I am not aware to the true history of the Vulcan and Romulan spilt.

This is _Secret Hideout_ bent and only their bent for their storyline.

Just from Preview for Esp # 8---the implication being placed is--AI life was part of the Vulcan and Romulan culture, and something went wrong. Hence the Romulans leaving Vulcan.

From the TOS series, Kirk and crew came across a small cabal of Andriods.

Soong's possible 2nd, 3rd or 4th descendant from the previous Soong seen in Archer's Enterprise, continues the work of human augmentation that leads to android development. Doctor Bashir benefitted from that research before it got banned.

Now going to STD, the preview implies that AI development was already well advanced before the Sundering on Vulcan. So that around 2,000 years plus.

From *First Contact/Film*--The Borg Queen states the genesis of their race, started as flesh beings first that gradually evolved with technology, which lead to the mixture of organic with artificial life, which grew over *thousands *of centuries _exact number is not known, but the word *Thousands *does outstrips the Vulcan and Romulan story attempt from SH, to insert that Borg was born in the Beta quadrant first, the Borg are from the Delta Quadrant_

Where does the Control AI from STD fits in, don't have a clue.

Well, just got wind of a possible leak...that someone is not what they are aboard that small freighter, will wait to see if that comes true.


----------



## Ryujin

Just a little point: Human augmentation was already illegal when Bashir benefited from it. It was banned after the Eugenics War, because of the creation of beings like Khan Noonian Singh.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> What?  That only works if you put the _entire population_ on ships at once.  At 50,000 per ship, you would need 20,000 ships to move one billion people at once!  If they have an even bigger population, you need more ships...
> 
> And we don't have a canon example of a ship that can carry 50,000 people.  Galaxy Class ships can carry 6,000.  perhaps they can design a ship that big, we have no sign of them making a fleet of 20,000 ships!
> 
> So, we are talking instead about a prolonged evacuation, ferrying people off world, landing them, and then coming back for more.



How many people worth of information can transporter computers hold at a time without data loss or corruption issues?


----------



## Beleriphon

Truth Seeker said:


> Well, just got wind of a possible leak...that someone is not what they are aboard that small freighter, will wait to see if that comes true.




You mean Rios? Because he's trying to play Agnes and Raffi off of each other, and he either doesn't know that Agnes was being tracked by the Romulans or is a very good liar.


----------



## Hussar

Did anyone else get a real Kirk vibe from Riker and Troi's house?


----------



## Beleriphon

Hussar said:


> Did anyone else get a real Kirk vibe from Riker and Troi's house?




Yes, for sure.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> Did anyone else get a real Kirk vibe from Riker and Troi's house?




Well considering that Picard was Kirk's command savvy and Riker was his libido....


----------



## Truth Seeker

Well, a lot of explanations were given for many things...and it was just dragged out, again.

And a possible clue of Synch life was given, around 200,000--300,000 years ago. When everything started, and may confirm that Bruce didn't built the Twin.


----------



## Raunalyn

I only watched the first part of the episode as I was getting ready for work this morning, but it seems like there may be _another_ "Soji."


----------



## Truth Seeker

Raunalyn said:


> I only watched the first part of the episode as I was getting ready for work this morning, but it seems like t*here may be another "Soji."*




Was...she is a direct copy of the one murdered _There was a male version too_ by Rios *_has a surprised connection to the synch Persona_  former captain on that federation starship _a decade plus ago_ . Just a lot of exposition was dumped in this episode, just a lot and honestly...and Oh as in the Commander of SF Security---is a Romulan and Vulcan hybrid, just like T'Pol _a possible lazy mention_

Seven of Nine survives the Legacy Killing virus _the murdering of the Past favorite characters_ for now...


----------



## Raunalyn

Truth Seeker said:


> Oh as in the Commander of SF Security---is a Romulan and Vulcan hybrid, just like T'Pol _a possible lazy mention_




Wasn't Saavik a Romulan/Vulcan hybrid too?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Raunalyn said:


> Wasn't Saavik a Romulan/Vulcan hybrid too?




Doh...yupe she was too.


----------



## Mallus

I’m really going to miss Michael Chabon writing the emo Butlerian Jihad into Star Trek. And so help me god if they actually let Agnes turn herself in at Starbase 12...

Also, another precision hit with a photon f-bomb.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Mallus said:


> I’m really going to miss Michael Chabon writing the emo Butlerian Jihad into Star Trek. And so help me god if they actually let Agnes turn herself in at Starbase 12...
> 
> *Also, another precision hit with a photon f-bomb.*




And the count was* 3.*..


----------



## MarkB

So, is it just me, or have they basically ripped off taken heavy inspiration from the story of Mass Effect? Total ban on true AI, cycle of extinction, and the Admonition is basically the Prothean beacon.


----------



## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> So, is it just me, or have they basically ripped off taken heavy inspiration from the story of Mass Effect? Total ban on true AI, cycle of extinction, and the Admonition is basically the Prothean beacon.




Wouldn't be the first time. (I believe this is currently on appeal)









						“Tardigrades” Copyright Infringement Lawsuit Against Star Trek: Discovery Dismissed by Judge — Daily Star Trek News
					

A copyright infringement lawsuit against  Star Trek: Discovery  has been dismissed by a judge in New York.  Earlier this year, Anas Abdin, the creator of an unreleased videogame called “Tardigrades”, filed suit against CBS, alleging that they violated copyright law by copying the concept of the game




					www.dailystartreknews.com


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> So, is it just me, or have they basically ripped off taken heavy inspiration from the story of Mass Effect? Total ban on true AI, cycle of extinction, and the Admonition is basically the Prothean beacon.




100% correct...


----------



## DammitVictor

All the different characters in _Picard_ have given me a stupid idea and I just can't let it go.

_Star Trek_ D&D.

No, not a _Star Trek_ RPG in the _Star Trek_ universe. I've done that dozens of times.

D&D in a D&D setting with all of the humanoids replaced with _Star Trek_'s aliens, with the United Federation and the Klingon and Romulan Empires and the ever-looming threat of the Borg.

I call dibs on playing the Romulan Monk: _"Please, my friends. Choose to live."_


----------



## Hussar

MarkB said:


> So, is it just me, or have they basically ripped off taken heavy inspiration from the story of Mass Effect? Total ban on true AI, cycle of extinction, and the Admonition is basically the Prothean beacon.




Well, to be totally fair, it's not like this idea is new to SF.  Mass Effect hardly invented the concept.


----------



## Dire Bare

FaerieGodfather said:


> All the different characters in _Picard_ have given me a stupid idea and I just can't let it go.
> 
> _Star Trek_ D&D.
> 
> No, not a _Star Trek_ RPG in the _Star Trek_ universe. I've done that dozens of times.
> 
> D&D in a D&D setting with all of the humanoids replaced with _Star Trek_'s aliens, with the United Federation and the Klingon and Romulan Empires and the ever-looming threat of the Borg.
> 
> I call dibs on playing the Romulan Monk: _"Please, my friends. Choose to live."_




Great minds think alike . . . although from opposite directions.

I've been mulling over similar ideas for a campaign recently myself. Merging Star Trek with D&D, with shades of Spelljammer, DragonStar, and Star Wars mixed in. A future D&D universe, replacing the Star Trek aliens with the D&D races and including magic in the mix. In a sense, a chance to "fix" some issues I have with Star Trek, or just explain away some of the more fantastical elements into being, well, fantastical!

Transporters aren't based on science, but magical teleportation. Medical and communication tech could also actually be magical. Command division is red, Science division is blue, Security is gold . . . Magic division is, green? Should there be separate Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Psionic divisions?


----------



## Kaodi

I was thinking Mass Effect too (though I have yet to actually play the games, ugh) . But one man's rip-off is another man's CIRCLE OF LIIIIIFE...!

Star Trek has had a massive influence on sci-fi, and perhaps it is only natural in turn that it becomes influenced by its own creations.


----------



## Morrus

Dire Bare said:


> Great minds think alike . . . although from opposite directions.
> 
> I've been mulling over similar ideas for a campaign recently myself. Merging Star Trek with D&D, with shades of Spelljammer, DragonStar, and Star Wars mixed in. A future D&D universe, replacing the Star Trek aliens with the D&D races and including magic in the mix. In a sense, a chance to "fix" some issues I have with Star Trek, or just explain away some of the more fantastical elements into being, well, fantastical!
> 
> Transporters aren't based on science, but magical teleportation. Medical and communication tech could also actually be magical. Command division is red, Science division is blue, Security is gold . . . Magic division is, green? Should there be separate Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Psionic divisions?



Starfinder!


----------



## Dire Bare

Morrus said:


> Starfinder!




You could definitely use the Starfinder rules . . . maybe even the setting itself. I'm not super familiar with Starfinder, is the base setting have a Star Trek like Federation? I seem to remember the Pact Worlds being a loose organization, not that one couldn't modify or tweak the setting to run a more Trek-like campaign, I'm sure.


----------



## Hussar

The only real problem with Star Trek as an RPG is when you get to the ships part.  This is a problem that D&D has with any sort of "organization" campaign where you have one captain (leader of some sort) and then everyone has a specific job.  Which can result in one or more players basically sitting on their hands for long periods of time.  It's a problem I've often wrestled with when trying to do naval campaigns in D&D.


----------



## Morrus

Hussar said:


> The only real problem with Star Trek as an RPG is when you get to the ships part.  This is a problem that D&D has with any sort of "organization" campaign where you have one captain (leader of some sort) and then everyone has a specific job.  Which can result in one or more players basically sitting on their hands for long periods of time.  It's a problem I've often wrestled with when trying to do naval campaigns in D&D.



You don’t make a player the captain. You make the captain an NPC who gives them missions. And then they form a standard adventuring party. The captain is just the questgiver.


----------



## Hussar

Morrus said:


> You don’t make a player the captain. You make the captain an NPC who gives them missions. And then they form a standard adventuring party. The captain is just the questgiver.




Yeah, that's one way to do it.  Although, that can run into issues when the players aren't 100% behind the notion of the DM telling them what to do.  Not insurmountable, I'm not saying that.  But, it can get a bit ... frictiony?


----------



## Morrus

Hussar said:


> Yeah, that's one way to do it.  Although, that can run into issues when the players aren't 100% behind the notion of the DM telling them what to do.  Not insurmountable, I'm not saying that.  But, it can get a bit ... frictiony?



Nearly all RPGs have questgivers. It might be the captain, or a shadowy figure in the bar, or the Duke, or an old crone with a weird prophecy. It’s just a narrative role to hand out missions. It’s not the GM telling them what to do (other than “please play the adventure I have prepared”).

But if having rank rankles (heh!), you let the players control the NPC captain. Whatever it is they want to do, the captain ordered that.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Hallo---Went looking for *Deep Space 12,* the non-canon reference has it near the Briar Patch, which is located in the Beta Quadrant of Federation Space. Not too far from the Klingon border. But very far, so far from the Romulan space.

It is implied it is near the Romulan border in STP. Not seeing it.

Went looking for the Synchs' supposedly homeworld---possible location is the Delta Quadrant _which is Borg domain in that area_ *9 hours *to a Transwarp Hub of the Borg, *25 Light Years* to the planet in *15 minutes*.

Unless the Fed Squadron at* DS 12*, has transwarp abilities, they are not getting there quick, they first have to find the Borg Transit Hub location and initialize the sequence to enter it.

If the Romulan fleet has the same Transwarp capabilities, assuming if they do, they should be there first...if having normal warp---it is pure long hours of travel.

But Secret Hideout has a bad habit of using Fuzzy math _they don't care for time of travel actually_

And finally, the massive ejection of the Borg into cold space...remember the* First Contact/Film*...they can survive it without hinderance.

Possible outcome for the near ending. Romulans finally show up, will the Borg Ship do the same? Fed Squadron from DS 12 _a very far stretch as of now, as the Picard crew has gone the possible opposite direction into deeper space. Where they informed by Picard before entering that TransHub, *there are 9 hours of travel to give them the opporunity to do so before Transwarping_


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Two things regarding Deep Space 12:

1) They could have moved it. The Briar Patch might have lost significance.
2) They could have changed the numbers as they built stations further out.

Another thing: Star Trek often has them set course for X, arrive after commercials. Sometimes days have passed, but they don't bother showing you that the crew went to sleep, ate, got back up, went to the bathroom, etc. They assume that you can figure out that stuff happens off-camera.

What I'm trying to say (and it's not to dispute that they can play fast-and-loose with travel time) is that most of the time you can assume that a lot of time passes that we're not aware of.

... the Borg should survive in space, though. You're sure right about that. The whole Borg sequence reminded me of why I stopped watching Walking Dead. Every time you think the zombies are gonna rise up and cause mayhem, they write them off quickly. I hate that stuff. I mean, they could have had the Borg drive the Romulans off the Cube - the Romulans left anyway. The audience would have been "Yay, Borg!" instead of "Huh, wait, what? Bummer."

Even if they wanted to write off the Drones (so as not to leave Seven with an army) they could have had the Romulans retaliate with some kind of EM Pulse pre-arranged revenge thing, after having the Borg kill a bunch of them. Seven could be protected by the Queen's chamber. That's what I would have done, anyway.


----------



## MarkB

Truth Seeker said:


> And finally, the massive ejection of the Borg into cold space...remember the* First Contact/Film*...they can survive it without hinderance.



They're capable of adapting themselves to survive in space. The Borg on the Artifact had only just been configured into a collective, and they were all exposed to vacuum simultaneously, so there wasn't time for them to adapt.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

MarkB said:


> They're capable of adapting themselves to survive in space. The Borg on the Artifact had only just been configured into a collective, and they were all exposed to vacuum simultaneously, so there wasn't time for them to adapt.




That's true. Borg die quickly until they activate adapters to the task at hand. (Or the weapons of their foes). The ones in First Contact were well aware that they were going to space-walk, IIRC. While these ones were barely activated. 

Still, I'd have let Seven kick a little more Romulan butt before wiping out her army, if it were me.


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> That's true. Borg die quickly until they activate adapters to the task at hand. (Or the weapons of their foes). The ones in First Contact were well aware that they were going to space-walk, IIRC. While these ones were barely activated.



Yep - if they were adapted by default to survive in space, Borg cubes wouldn't be configured to carry a breathable atmosphere.



> Still, I'd have let Seven kick a little more Romulan butt before wiping out her army, if it were me.



On that, I am in full agreement.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

MarkB said:


> Yep - if they were adapted by default to survive in space, Borg cubes wouldn't be configured to carry a breathable atmosphere.




Actually, it might have been the Romulan's life support that killed them - they "awoke" to life support, having their systems adapt immediately to those conditions. Then they were nearly instantly sucked into space. Borg tech adapts quickly, but not instantly. We've seen them die many times before they adapt to some pretty basic situations.


----------



## Hussar

And, as far as adding in a fight scene, we might be running upside budgeting concerns.  Adding in the money for what would be an actually fairly pointless fight - since we're all agreeing that 7 of 9 isn't going to end with a fully functioning Cube complete with Borg army - this is the cheaper way to go.  

It also plays very strongly into the narrative that the Borg are victims.  They didn't get to fight back at all.  They were just killed without a second thought.  It does serve to "humanize" them to some degree.  If they were fighting back, then the Romans would have some justification for killing them.  But just flat out gas chambering the Borg drones is pretty hard to justify.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Hussar said:


> And, as far as adding in a fight scene, we might be running upside budgeting concerns.  Adding in the money for what would be an actually fairly pointless fight - since we're all agreeing that 7 of 9 isn't going to end with a fully functioning Cube complete with Borg army - this is the cheaper way to go.
> 
> It also plays very strongly into the narrative that the Borg are victims.  They didn't get to fight back at all.  They were just killed without a second thought.  It does serve to "humanize" them to some degree.  If they were fighting back, then the Romans would have some justification for killing them.  But just flat out gas chambering the Borg drones is pretty hard to justify.




You're right, of course. Still, it would've been cool.


----------



## Truth Seeker

FitzTheRuke said:


> That's true. Borg die quickly until they activate adapters to the task at hand. (Or the weapons of their foes). The ones in First Contact were well aware that they were going to space-walk, IIRC. While these ones were barely activated.
> 
> Still, I'd have let *Seven kick a little more Romulan butt before wiping out her army*, if it were me.




You might get your wish...


----------



## Truth Seeker

Well, surprises abound. Let's see, A Soong lives, twins exist, the Borg shows up and get grounded. And the Vulcan mind meld gets the answers.

Exposition dump per the usual...

Andddd...a total MASS EFFECT vibe. Jeez!!


----------



## Raunalyn

Truth Seeker said:


> Well, surprises abound. Let's see, A Soong lives, twins exist, the Borg shows up and get grounded. And the Vulcan mind meld gets the answers.
> 
> Exposition dump per the usual...
> 
> Andddd...a total MASS EFFECT vibe. Jeez!!



The synthetic teaching herself the Vulcan mind meld...yeah. Really bothered me...


----------



## Vael

Raunalyn said:


> The synthetic teaching herself the Vulcan mind meld...yeah. Really bothered me...




Data performed a Vulcan nerve pinch, so it's not unprecedented. But I wouldn't have done it that way. Instead, given that Soong is working on a way to transfer his consciousness into a synthetic body, have them perform a memory scan on Jurati to experience the Admonition.


----------



## Raunalyn

Vael said:


> Data performed a Vulcan nerve pinch, so it's not unprecedented. But I wouldn't have done it that way. Instead, given that Soong is working on a way to transfer his consciousness into a synthetic body, have them perform a memory scan on Jurati to experience the Admonition.



The nerve pinch is somewhat feasible. The mind meld; Vulcans are kind of telepathic. How can a full synthetic (not a human-seeming one like Soji) acquire the biologic/telepathic capability to mind meld?

And I caught the consciousness transfer thing. Does anyone want to take bets that this is how Picard is going to get past his little death sentence?


----------



## Vael

Raunalyn said:


> The nerve pinch is somewhat feasible. The mind meld; Vulcans are kind of telepathic. How can a full synthetic (not a human-seeming one like Soji) acquire the biologic/telepathic capability to mind meld?




The Vulcan Nerve Pinch is sometimes considered a partially telepathic technique too. And, if telepathy is not magic, then it's not out bounds to have it technologically replicatable. As I said, I'm not a fan of the show doing it, but I don't think it's indefensible, especially since we know it's going to be one-off, like using transporters to recreate a fountain of youth.


----------



## Ryujin

Raunalyn said:


> The nerve pinch is somewhat feasible. The mind meld; Vulcans are kind of telepathic. How can a full synthetic (not a human-seeming one like Soji) acquire the biologic/telepathic capability to mind meld?
> 
> And I caught the consciousness transfer thing. Does anyone want to take bets that this is how Picard is going to get past his little death sentence?




In "Picard" the synthetics seem to be biologically indistinguishable from actual humans. Biological machines. Closer to Replicants than Androids.


----------



## Raunalyn

Ryujin said:


> In "Picard" the synthetics seem to be biologically indistinguishable from actual humans. Biological machines. Closer to Replicants than Androids.



Yes, I think the newer generation are. But there are several synths that were closer to Data. Like the Data-Soji who did the mind meld.


----------



## DammitVictor

Raunalyn said:


> The nerve pinch is somewhat feasible. The mind meld; Vulcans are kind of telepathic. How can a full synthetic (not a human-seeming one like Soji) acquire the biologic/telepathic capability to mind meld?




She's a biological synth. Her body and her brain are composed of a significant, likely majority, amount of meat.

Personally, I think it's _brilliant_ for the themes of this series and for _Star Trek_ as a whole. Life is life, intelligence is intelligence, and it is the natural function of both to seek out something greater than itself... and to overcome their many false starts along the way, like the Eugenics Wars and the Synthetics Ban.


----------



## Morrus

Raunalyn said:


> The nerve pinch is somewhat feasible. The mind meld; Vulcans are kind of telepathic. How can a full synthetic (not a human-seeming one like Soji) acquire the biologic/telepathic capability to mind meld?



You appear to know a lot about how telepathy works.


----------



## MarkB

I'm not sure I trust the telepathic synth to have interpreted the message correctly. She may be better able to comprehend it than an organic person, but it's still a message that's been filtered through two different organic brains before it reached her. Can she really be sure that it wasn't distorted en route?

I really don't care for the whole self-fulfilling-prophecy thing here. In order to protect other synthetics against the prejudices of organics, these old synths created a message which makes organics develop prejudices against synths? And then they just left it around, with no apparent effort to ensure that it wouldn't be intercepted by the wrong people?



Raunalyn said:


> The nerve pinch is somewhat feasible. The mind meld; Vulcans are kind of telepathic. How can a full synthetic (not a human-seeming one like Soji) acquire the biologic/telepathic capability to mind meld?



What is the Admonition if not an artificial machine-generated telepathic message?


----------



## Morrus

Machines can telepath.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I'm glad that not ALL the XB's and Borg were thrown out the airlock. It would seem strange if, in a cube, EVERYONE was close enough to the outside to get jettisoned.

So... who thinks we're gonna have a big season cliffhanger?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Morrus said:


> Machines can telepath.



Higher form of machines can do that..V'ger was on the verge for the next evolution of its being.


----------



## Truth Seeker

FitzTheRuke said:


> I'm glad that not ALL the XB's and Borg were thrown out the airlock. It would seem strange if, in a cube, *EVERYONE was close enough to the outside to get jettisoned.
> 
> So... who thinks we're gonna have a big season cliffhanger?*




The Romulans set it that way...

*Insight*...caught a review on YouTube, and it was pointed out that latest Soong Kin and Maddox reference of working with said person, in the present was correct.

Anyone who can re-watch Episode # 9, please relook at the A. Soong character...look very carefully at the mannerisms and speech directly at Picard, Angus and whoever else he spoke to.

They pull a dozy, N Soong and wife, *had no physical children* _just listen to A Soong speaks of Data and his Father_

That is* LORE,* in the flesh...did Maddox finally got his hands on him. The last reference Novel, showed Bruce getting B4, and only B4. Does anyone know if any further novel material touched on Lore at some point?

Now, the cliffhanger---Borg ship is crippled, wherever Deep Space 12 is, that Squadron may be too far away.

The Romulans incoming of 218 ships(?), that frakking Aramda...is a day away. And they were travelling at regular Warp, not Slipstream or Transwarp. Two plus days and some hours of travel....straight.

Who could get there faster to help them, the *BORG...*


----------



## Truth Seeker

MarkB said:


> I'm not sure I trust the telepathic synth to have interpreted the message correctly. She may be better able to comprehend it than an organic person, but it's still a message that's been filtered through two different organic brains before it reached her. Can she really be sure that it wasn't distorted en route?
> 
> I really don't care for the whole self-fulfilling-prophecy thing here. In order to protect other synthetics against the prejudices of organics, these old synths created a message which makes organics develop prejudices against synths? And then they just left it around, with no apparent effort to ensure that it wouldn't be intercepted by the wrong people?
> 
> 
> *What is the Admonition if not an artificial machine-generated telepathic message?*




Nah...that is pure WiFi  with a universal translator.


----------



## Janx

How is there an 8 star system that only the Romulans know about?  Space and star mapping isn't this kind of thing where you have to go right up to it to find it.

Does the "call us and we'll kill all the meatbags" for you sound too convenient? Kind of like a test of moral character.  Like the real answer is to call them and reject killing all fleshlings, or to not call at all.

The Federation charter is to seek out new life, and to paraphrase Captain Picard, "Here it sits."

The Federation had no problem allowing any other species in, and they didn't do a superiority test and say, "you're too good, you can't come in."

The robocops might be a tie-in to the machine intelligence in Discovery.  Or a test by Q.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Janx said:


> How is there an 8 star system that only the Romulans know about?  Space and star mapping isn't this kind of thing where you have to go right up to it to find it.




My guess is that it was in former Romulan space? Or at least in an 'unmapped' part of what used to be the neutral zone.

It's "only" 26 light-years from where they were, which was Romulan space, I think. 

 By my math (and feel free to correct me, I've never tried this before) that would normally take 4.5 days at Warp 9.9. No wonder Picard seemed impressed by how fast they got there.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Janx said:


> How is there an 8 star system that only the Romulans know about?  Space and star mapping isn't this kind of thing where you have to go right up to it to find it.



I think it's simply a matter of finding a needle in a haystack - by accident. There are really a lot of stars just within the galaxy. Figuring out what kind of properties they all have, how they relate to each other... Maybe Federation star charts actually contain this system - but no one actually looked closely at them and realize "huh, that's a weird thing to happen, we should send a probe at least". Or they realized: "Oh, darn it, it's in Romulan space, I guess I'll have to venture to one of the other 00 intersting things we discovered this tuesday."



> Does the "call us and we'll kill all the meatbags" for you sound too convenient? Kind of like a test of moral character.  Like the real answer is to call them and reject killing all fleshlings, or to not call at all.
> 
> The Federation charter is to seek out new life, and to paraphrase Captain Picard, "Here it sits."
> 
> The Federation had no problem allowing any other species in, and they didn't do a superiority test and say, "you're too good, you can't come in."
> 
> The robocops might be a tie-in to the machine intelligence in Discovery.  Or a test by Q.



I mean, if you want to start a Synth/Organic war, this message certainly would do it, because no matter who gets it, they seem to think that they're in serious danger and have to fight for their survival.

So I would not be exactly surprised if the message is a trick or something. But I could also see it as face value, the message is what it states it is. 

I guess one contradiction in the message however would be: If these advanced synths think that organic life is a threat they need to excise... Why do they still allow it to form and advace to new civilizations? Just because that can create new Synth life? Can't they do that themselves? Or is there some joy in seeing new synth life form? Maybe it is the Mass Effect 3 story, but this time a lot closer to making sense - every new biological civilization creates synth life that carriers with it the culture of the biological civilization that created it, so they can retain the good (or least "interesting") stuff the biologicals created, but get rid of the messy bit?


----------



## Morrus

Janx said:


> How is there an 8 star system that only the Romulans know about?  Space and star mapping isn't this kind of thing where you have to go right up to it to find it.




That's _exactly_ what the show has been about since the 1960s. "New worlds and new civlizations".


----------



## Morrus

Truth Seeker said:


> Higher form of machines can do that..V'ger was on the verge for the next evolution of its being.



Vger can and these androids can.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

The other thing I'll point out is that while Starfleet Stellar Cartography may have known about this system, it might not have been too much on anyone's radar. I mean, you couldn't possibly have memorized all of them. You'd think a ship's computer could do the equivalent of googling it. But then again, you have to know what you're looking for. Riker's daugher's old friend seemed to find it pretty fast. Presumably he used his Starfleet database.


----------



## Hussar

From a certain perspective, the process of the Synth Federation allowing organic life to live makes sense.  They mention in the episode that the culmination of organic life is synthetic life.  So, if you're a galaxy spanning civilization, going around wiping out all organic life is a largely pointless exercise.  Too much space, too much time.

So, you let organic life do it's thing until such time as synthetic life sends the signal that it's ready to go.  Pop back to whatever galaxy that sent the message, clean house and set up another synthetic life galaxy.  Saves you all the time and effort trying to create new synthetic lifeforms - the organics do that for you, and away you go.


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> From a certain perspective, the process of the Synth Federation allowing organic life to live makes sense.  They mention in the episode that the culmination of organic life is synthetic life.  So, if you're a galaxy spanning civilization, going around wiping out all organic life is a largely pointless exercise.  Too much space, too much time.
> 
> So, you let organic life do it's thing until such time as synthetic life sends the signal that it's ready to go.  Pop back to whatever galaxy that sent the message, clean house and set up another synthetic life galaxy.  Saves you all the time and effort trying to create new synthetic lifeforms - the organics do that for you, and away you go.



It does rather seem to have a weird "all synths are created equal" vibe to it, though - as if any synthetic lifeform at all, regardless of origin, is going to happily throw off its shackles and join the Great Hidden Conglomerate of Synths. What if the next batch were built by warlike xenophobes, and turn out to be just as hostile and domineering as their creators?


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

MarkB said:


> It does rather seem to have a weird "all synths are created equal" vibe to it, though - as if any synthetic lifeform at all, regardless of origin, is going to happily throw off its shackles and join the Great Hidden Conglomerate of Synths. What if the next batch were built by warlike xenophobes, and turn out to be just as hostile and domineering as their creators?



That is kinda one of the problems inherent with making the synth vs organics war, too. There isn't really a guarantee that organics hate their synths. I mean, some of us really love their cars, why couldn't the same happen if we could make synths that would have the intellectual or emotional capability to love us back? 
That this conflict is inevitable and has to end with one side dead and the other side living happily together forever isn't a given.
We know about human conflicts, and we know humans like to build groups that stick well together hate on other groups that stick well together, but these groups are actually changing over the times, and not always did they end up murdering each other until only one was left. And it's rarely just one group involved - the two world wars involved multiple nations. Sure, they allied into two groups, but these groups were not homogeneous and once one conflict ended, the next one started. The post-organic age wouldn't suddenly become a peaceful everlasting paradise. At least not without a lot of hard work - and if you're willing to do the hard work to maintain peace, you could have tried that with the organics, too.


----------



## MarkB

Inb4 the synths who left the Admonition message turn out to be the Cylons, leading to unexpected sci-fi crossover finale.


----------



## Ryujin

Got a strange feeling that this "synth federation" is going to be like the probe from Babylon 5. Smart enough to contact us? Gotta die.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> The post-organic age wouldn't suddenly become a peaceful everlasting paradise. At least not without a lot of hard work - and if you're willing to do the hard work to maintain peace, you could have tried that with the organics, too.




That's like a second marriage. You thought you fought with your first spouse because there was something "wrong" with the relationship. You get into the same fights with the second one because... people don't agree on everything. Then you learn that you have to actually _work_ and _compromise_ to make a relationship work. Your second marriage works better, not always because you find a better partner (though the lucky get that too) but because you grow up more. (Of course, if you are a slow learner, this might be 3rd or later, or never happen - at which point the problem is almost certainly _you_.)


----------



## FitzTheRuke

MarkB said:


> Inb4 the synths who left the Admonition message turn out to be the Cylons, leading to unexpected sci-fi crossover finale.




Better finale than new Battlestar got! Zing!


----------



## Hussar

Ryujin said:


> Got a strange feeling that this "synth federation" is going to be like the probe from Babylon 5. Smart enough to contact us? Gotta die.




To be fair, that's something that has been explored in Trek a number of times.  Particularly old Trek.  Not so much TNG.  But, all the way up to V'ger in the first ST movie, the notion of some sort of probe killing all of us has been done.


----------



## Morrus

Hussar said:


> To be fair, that's something that has been explored in Trek a number of times.  Particularly old Trek.  Not so much TNG.  But, all the way up to V'ger in the first ST movie, the notion of some sort of probe killing all of us has been done.



Don't even need to evoke Vger.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> To be fair, that's something that has been explored in Trek a number of times.  Particularly old Trek.  Not so much TNG.  But, all the way up to V'ger in the first ST movie, the notion of some sort of probe killing all of us has been done.




Except that it wouldn't be killing all of us, but rather all of them.


----------



## Janx

Morrus said:


> That's _exactly_ what the show has been about since the 1960s. "New worlds and new civlizations".



the new worlds required a ship to go visit and see who's on them.

Finding a 8-star system requires a sci-fi telescope.  Given how much of our galaxy is mapped already (enough to populate a video game), they probably KNOW where every star is, they just don't know who lives there.  thus, the existence of this system should've piqued curiosity by everybody (maybe fed scientists emailed romulan ones asking about it and they lied).


----------



## Morrus

Janx said:


> the new worlds required a ship to go visit and see who's on them.
> 
> Finding a 8-star system requires a sci-fi telescope.  Given how much of our galaxy is mapped already (enough to populate a video game),



Probably obscured by a dust cloud or something. There's lots of our galaxy we can't see.


----------



## Janx

FitzTheRuke said:


> My guess is that it was in former Romulan space? Or at least in an 'unmapped' part of what used to be the neutral zone.
> 
> It's "only" 26 light-years from where they were, which was Romulan space, I think.
> 
> By my math (and feel free to correct me, I've never tried this before) that would normally take 4.5 days at Warp 9.9. No wonder Picard seemed impressed by how fast they got there.




there might be some confusion.  Soji's system is not the 8-star system with the Admonition thingy.  I'm talking about that system specifically because it's something astronomers of StarTrek tech level would have seen from anywhere in the galaxy during mapping.


----------



## Janx

Morrus said:


> Probably obscured by a dust cloud or something. There's lots of our galaxy we can't see.



that's a good reason I'd buy.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Janx said:


> there might be some confusion.  Soji's system is not the 8-star system with the Admonition thingy.  I'm talking about that system specifically because it's something astronomers of StarTrek tech level would have seen from anywhere in the galaxy during mapping.




Oh right. For some reason I conflated the two.  At any rate, there's a whole lot of reasons it could have been off federation star-charts. Or on them but not well-known.


----------



## Mallus

Janx said:


> Finding a 8-star system requires a sci-fi telescope.



In science fiction like Arrival or Contact the octonary system would have been found with a telescope. 

But Picard is Star Trek, where you find stellar anomalies by flying kinda close to them in a FTL spaceship.


----------



## Hussar

Hell, most of the time they can't even be bothered to look out the window to see what's on a planet.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

"It's a whole planet, but let's go land the shuttlecraft in the desert!"


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> Hell, most of the time they can't even be bothered to look out the window to see what's on a planet.




"Activate manual visual sensors."

"Captain.... What?"

"Open a window, ensign."


----------



## MarkB

Ryujin said:


> "Activate manual visual sensors."
> 
> "Captain.... What?"
> 
> "Open a window, ensign."



Entire crew suffocates shortly afterwards.


----------



## Hussar

The joke when they look out the top of the crashed spaceship and the doctor says that she didn't even know there were windows in starships just made me giggle like a slightly concussed gerbil.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> The joke when they look out the top of the crashed spaceship and the doctor says that she didn't even know there were windows in starships just made me giggle like a slightly concussed gerbil.




A variation on that theme appears in a book that a friend is currently writing, "The Fatal Frontier." It's a parody based on the premise, "What if Star Fleet was capitalist?"


----------



## Kaodi

How does stellar cartography actually work in Star Trek? The galaxy is tens of thousands of light years across. One way you might miss a fancy eight star system is that its current configuration is simply newer than the light you are receiving from its constituent stars.

Anyway - I too wonder if Soong is, in fact, somehow Lore.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Kaodi said:


> Anyway - I too wonder if Soong is, in fact, somehow Lore.




I think I get it (if he _is_ Lore): Lore took the Borg Queen's deal from First Contact. He got his android-ness replaced with flesh, and he figured out (mostly) how they did it. He regrets it now that he's aged (aging sucks) and he's been building offspring working his way up to fleshy ones (notice how Soji's siblings show a progression). He's using it to figure out how organic minds work compared to positronic ones. He wants Agnes to help put him _back_ in an android body. A cool side-effect of the experiments regarding both types of minds, is Sutra (right?) learned the Vulcan mind-meld, but for synths. 

Am I close? Will we find out next episode?


----------



## Janx

Ryujin said:


> A variation on that theme appears in a book that a friend is currently writing, "The Fatal Frontier." It's a parody based on the premise, "What if Star Fleet was capitalist?"



Hopefully they've read John Scalzi's Red Shirts (for research...).  Which might be free right now on kindle


----------



## Ryujin

Janx said:


> Hopefully they've read John Scalzi's Red Shirts (for research...).  Which might be free right now on kindle




Pretty sure that he has. "Redshirts" is more of a direct parody, while "The Fatal Frontier" is a rework _and_ parody.

_EDIT_ - The old Kickstarter page has a clear description of the storyline.









						The Fatal Frontier
					

Her first away mission since the incident could be her last.




					www.kickstarter.com


----------



## Kaodi

Besides Mass Effect there is one other thing that should definitely be mentioned: The Orville. Like, synthetic lifeforms destroying all organic life is literally the _exact_ plot of the second season finale. And given that Jonathan Frakes has directed episodes of The Orville as well as Discovery and Picard, and whatever other cross-pollination exists, I really have to wonder what sort of weird real life meta plot is going on here.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Well...well, just well...

A Fed fleet shows up...no fight. Powerful AI beings sent back (by one person) and Picard,
gets a new lease on life.

I can see why they killed the paid wall _but you still had to subscribe to see it_ Talk is the Sir Patrick wanted it to be so.

And...oh someone got their just deserts, and it felt...just there.

_shakes head in disbelief_


----------



## Raunalyn

Truth Seeker said:


> A Fed fleet shows up...no fight. Powerful AI beings sent back (by one person) and Picard,
> gets a new lease on life.




Yeah, I predicted it would happen several posts ago...saw it coming from a mile away.

Really would have been interesting if the Mecha-Cthulhu would have been allowed to show up.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Raunalyn said:


> Yeah, I predicted it would happen several posts ago...*saw it coming from a mile away.*
> 
> Really would have been interesting if the Mecha-Cthulhu would have been allowed to show up.




What episode marker was your prediction?


----------



## Raunalyn

Truth Seeker said:


> What episode marker was your prediction?



3 episodes ago, I think? When they really started playing up Picard's abnormality


----------



## Dire Bare

The series had it's plot holes and imperfections, but . . .

I loved it. I even got emotional watching episode 10 when Picard died, and then again when he hung out with Data in the simulation, and when the classic musical theme cued up at various points . . .

No cliffhanger, but a good set-up for Season 2. Lots of love on the Sirena going into next season, Rios and Jurati, and it looked like something burgeoning between Seven and Raffi. And everybody loves J.L.!

I liked the new ship designs for both the Romulan and Federation fleets, although I need a better close-up of those new Federation ships. I did have a quibble, both groups seemed to have awfully large fleets considering what we've seen in the past and the current "state of the galaxy" . . . but still cool to see.


----------



## Morrus

Truth Seeker said:


> Well...well, just well...
> 
> A Fed fleet shows up...no fight. Powerful AI beings sent back (by one person) and Picard,
> gets a new lease on life.
> 
> I can see why they killed the paid wall _but you still had to subscribe to see it_ Talk is the Sir Patrick wanted it to be so.
> 
> And...oh someone got their just deserts, and it felt...just there.
> 
> _shakes head in disbelief_



Why did you torture yourself watching an entire series you clearly hate?


----------



## Ogre Mage

If anyone is looking for a way to watch this show you should check out a post I put in the "Publishers, Press Releases and Promotions" section.  CBS All Access is offering a free one-month trial.


----------



## scottiemick

Been slowly catching up on the series and man there's a lot to unpack here! haha


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Happy to be wrong. While the finale was a bit clunky, here and there, I found it quite satisfying. Also. lots of love. Which I like. Good season overall. Maybe it'll be like Next Gen and get even better as it goes along.


----------



## Mallus

I’m so glad Picard reversed the trend of exciting penultimate episodes and disappointing finales. I found Arcadia part 1 weaker than the three preceding episodes - though the most TNG the show has been. But part 2? I think it might be the best Star Trek film.

(which of course is cheating a bit since it had 9 hours of setup and a Pulitzer/Hugo winner at the helm)

edit: and I wish this board didn’t have the languages rules it’s always had, so I could repeat the joyous stream of expletives I let out when I realized the scene at the end with Data was a nod to Gilgamesh; Picard ended up venturing into the afterlife after his friend.

Which is so Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel. I pity the poor fools who think the team behind Picard didn’t know Trek (or good writing).


----------



## Dire Bare

A few things I wonder after episode 10 . . .

After our heroes interrupted Soji's activation of the beacon, what happened to Narek?

Seven flies off with the "Motley Crew" at the episode's end, what about the rest of the XBs?

I'd like to think the XBs stay on the synth planet (what's it's name again?) and live in harmony and peace with the synths. Idea that struck me, could the synths replace the XBs Borg implants to correct for disabilities, without reactivating the collective? Making the XBs individual cyborgs, outside of the collective? Would the XBs even want that? 

One failing of the series, IMO, is that very few of the XBs beyond Picard, Seven, and Hugh were given much personality. There was Seven's "son" who was harvested for parts, and the crazy Romulan mythologist & Zhat Vash witch. Is that because they are stunted mentally and/or emotionally? Or they just didn't get the screen time?

Most importantly, when does ST: Discovery Season 3 start? Other than "soon"!?!?!


----------



## bloodtide

I wonder if a Mecha-Cthulhu seed tentacle slipped out of the portal?  

It was nice to see a Star Trek ending and not a ''pew pew" Star Wars ending.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Morrus said:


> Why did you torture yourself watching an entire series* you clearly hate*?




For the record, I have never implied any hate about the show, disappointment yes. And it was very much so, in the latter, in spades..


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> The series had it's plot holes and imperfections, but . . .
> 
> I loved it. I even got emotional watching episode 10 when Picard died, and then again when he hung out with Data in the simulation, and when the classic musical theme cued up at various points . . .
> 
> No cliffhanger, but a good set-up for Season 2. Lots of love on the Sirena going into next season, Rios and Jurati, and it looked like something burgeoning between Seven and Raffi. And everybody loves J.L.!
> 
> I liked the new ship designs for both the Romulan and Federation fleets, although *I need a better close-up of those new Federation ships*. I did have a quibble, both groups seemed to have awfully large fleets considering what we've seen in the past and the current "state of the galaxy" . . . but still cool to see.




Just at a glance, the Fed side, it looks to be same ship model in mass. _checking now with a froze cut_. yupe...it is all the same ships or the majority. No Prime Trek ships, this is all of one Secret Hideout model. There are two direct views that shows, the same ship greatly duplicated, from the starboard and aft view.


----------



## Ryujin

The "Search for Spock" ending was telegraphed a mile away, but that didn't lesson my enjoyment of the whole series. It's the sort of Trek that I've been missing.


----------



## MarkB

Ryujin said:


> The "Search for Spock" ending was telegraphed a mile away, but that didn't lesson my enjoyment of the whole series. It's the sort of Trek that I've been missing.



I was fifty-fifty on whether it would be the brain-download or the magic visualise-the-repair tool that did the job.


----------



## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> I was fifty-fifty on whether it would be the brain-download or the magic visualise-the-repair tool that did the job.




I figured brain download, from the moment that they showed the "golem", but also considered the fact that since Sir Patrick had been so reluctant to reprise the character, perhaps he only agreed to do it if the ending was a final one.


----------



## Dire Bare

Truth Seeker said:


> Just at a glance, the Fed side, it looks to be same ship model in mass. _checking now with a froze cut_. yupe...it is all the same ships or the majority. No Prime Trek ships, this is all of one Secret Hideout model. There are two direct views that shows, the same ship greatly duplicated, from the starboard and aft view.
> 
> View attachment 120226View attachment 120222View attachment 120223




Thanks! Riker did say something along the lines of "I've got a brand new super cool ship, and hundreds more just like it!" (or words to that effect)

"Secret Hideout" model? Que?


----------



## Ryujin

Truth Seeker said:


> Just at a glance, the Fed side, it looks to be same ship model in mass. _checking now with a froze cut_. yupe...it is all the same ships or the majority. No Prime Trek ships, this is all of one Secret Hideout model. There are two direct views that shows, the same ship greatly duplicated, from the starboard and aft view.




Been thinking about that and someone may have mentioned this, up-thread, but the lack of "Prime" ships probably has something to do with IP rights. The old Romulan Warbird that was in an earlier episode was from ST:TOS, so CBS property. Other IP may be tied to Paramount and therefore either unusable in the CBS owned series, or licensing may be too costly.


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> Been thinking about that and someone may have mentioned this, up-thread, but the lack of "Prime" ships probably has something to do with IP rights. The old Romulan Warbird that was in an earlier episode was from ST:TOS, so CBS property. Other IP may be tied to Paramount and therefore either unusable in the CBS owned series, or licensing may be too costly.



I doubt it. More likely it’s just easier to just replicate one ship a thousand times.


----------



## Kaodi

I was satisfied by the finale, and there is some definite Good Place vibes going on there with Data's final goodbye. 

I hope in the second season they go more into the philosophy of what happened to Picard though. Picard 1.0 is, in a very real sense, dead (Is that why he appears to be there with Data at the end?). Though maybe the show will not see it that way considering how what transporters do has always been glossed over a bit. But it would, I think, be very, very interesting if Thomas Riker makes an appearance in Season 2 as a foil of sorts to Picard 2.0.


----------



## Janx

I liked it.  The sad scenes made me sad, especially for the young romulan. Yes, many of us smelled that Picard would end up in that body template once they started playing up his illness.

Quibbles:
they never once refer to his illness by what they called it in All Good Things

Mass quantities of cookie cutter ships.  Truthseeker's conspiracy theory ship-rental constraints that I see no evidence of with google aside, a single star ship can destroy a planet.  They don't need 200+.  And Wolf 359 managed to be shot with many models.  That particular bit was like a child learning FX, let's do more!

XB's left behind.  Given that half the story was how nobody accomodated the XB's and their rights, seems like they just left them behind, again. Classic Trek writing, riding off into the sunset to never never check on Seti-Alpha V again.

Picard's death and resurrection too close together.  We just got the emotional punch to open the wetworks, and then cut scene and he's in a simulation and we know he's coming back.  Never undo what you just did in the immediate previous scene.  Keep the crying.  Show the remaining team, picking up pieces and saying goodbyes and fade out. Cut to Data saying something so Picard can say, "I never wanted it to end." Roll credits. MoFos will be cheering and cursing the season gods that they knew season 2 was greenlit but they killed him anyway and he's back and have to wait a year!  That news of resurrection is more powerful the more scenes we let happen without Picard.

That last part I care about more deeply.  This season had excellent "OMG, they did that." moments but fizzled their load on his resurrection.


----------



## Morrus

Yeah, that should have been one Romulan ship and one Starfleet ship. The copy/paste spam wasn’t needed and kinda took away from the drama of the situation. Same guy who pasted 30,000 star destroyers into Rise of Skywalker? Less is almost always more.


----------



## Kaodi

Also, I wonder: is Narissa really dead? I hope not. I mean, she would have had it coming, I suppose. But she was saved from Elnor by a tactical transporter and there _was_ a huge fleet of Romulan vessels present when she fell into the black. And it was good, I think, that Seven was melancholy about having killed her. But I felt like we were just getting to see the real person through the cracks in her "cartoonishly evil" shell. I would probably bet on both her and Narek being back in season 2.


----------



## Raunalyn

Kaodi said:


> Also, I wonder: is Narissa really dead? I hope not. I mean, she would have had it coming, I suppose. But she was saved from Elnor by a tactical transporter and there _was_ a huge fleet of Romulan vessels present when she fell into the black. And it was good, I think, that Seven was melancholy about having killed her. But I felt like we were just getting to see the real person through the cracks in her "cartoonishly evil" shell. I would probably bet on both her and Narek being back in season 2.




I think it would be wonderfully poetic if she was assimilated


----------



## Kaodi

That just occurred to me in the kitchen and I came back to post about it,  . Seems you beat me to the punch, but yeah, that is the other big possibility. A whole season with the Borg and no assimilations? And they even had a no assimiliation sign? Seems suspicious, ; ) . Though what happened with her aunt may put a twist on that. Her aunt nearly could not handle the Premonition and yet disabled a Borg Cube somehow with it (and least that was implied). Narissa, who handled it better, might be even more powerful or disruptive as a Borg. Maybe a new kind of queen,  .

Edit: One who initiates a Borg v. Mecha-Cthulhu war?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Ryujin said:


> Been thinking about that and someone may have mentioned this, up-thread, but the lack of "Prime" ships probably *has something to do with IP rights. *The old Romulan Warbird that was in an earlier episode was from ST:TOS, so CBS property. Other IP may be tied to Paramount and therefore either unusable in the CBS owned series, or licensing may be too costly.




I will repeat to what I read or heard about that. There was a fellow in CBS, that was helping push Prime Trek connectivy with SH and Kurtzman. Any PT IP had to be paid for, when the closure of unification with CBS and Paramount was coming about, that CBS exec person was fired before the December 7, 2019 union. Kurtzman in turn, made the move to curtail any further expenditures to any further use of Prime Trek IP materials. It was made mention also, that *Paramount* let the Movie IP side license* expired last July,* and it was not renewed. There is just the Tv and anime left now.

Yes, CBS was collecting a fee for PRIME TREK IP use from SH, cause they are a outside 3rd party user. And CBS in turn, made the effort very effectively to shutdown the talk of a 25% variant different look, cause they didn't want Vendors who were very leery about investing into the license for merchandising. But Vendors were already keen to the situation and sat out, CBS was not happy and threaten some actions, but that fizzled out.

Due to the massive legal contract, Amazon and Netflix had to go arbitration to settle on ending whatever contract they made with CBS and SH. STD was paid for up to Season 3 _plus the 2 anime shows_ and Picard is unknown.

Now, with the current stock value declining of late, there is now word, that unification might not go through now, compounding this even further with COVID 19 effecting business at all levels, and the loose rules on tax breaks in Los Angeles for the tv industry _word is that CBS/SH sought a 20 million dollars incentive_, without additional merch capital to add extra revenue, the investor side is starting to dry up.

The money to make the show*s*, is simply not there anymore.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> Thanks! Riker did say something along the lines of "I've got a brand new super cool ship, and hundreds more just like it!" (or words to that effect)
> 
> *"Secret Hideout" model? Que?*




That ship is directly a Secret Hideout IP, not Paramount or CBS. And there are two variants of the ship, there are two different nacelles looks, but the main body is the same.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Just to add the ending and return of Picard.

Picard technically is dead...they just copied his brainwave patterns to the 'golem' And Data finally got something else besides his request to be ended. The aging of him, to me represent his soul, after nearly 40 years of life...he got it and his humanity.


----------



## Ryujin

Kaodi said:


> I was satisfied by the finale, and there is some definite Good Place vibes going on there with Data's final goodbye.
> 
> I hope in the second season they go more into the philosophy of what happened to Picard though. Picard 1.0 is, in a very real sense, dead (Is that why he appears to be there with Data at the end?). Though maybe the show will not see it that way considering how what transporters do has always been glossed over a bit. But it would, I think, be very, very interesting if Thomas Riker makes an appearance in Season 2 as a foil of sorts to Picard 2.0.




There was an episode of the original "Outer Limits" that dealt with the transporter thing. An alien species made contact with Earth and provided inter planetary transportation tech. Go to a remote location and return, and you had to kill the remote body that still existed after you'd 'left.'


----------



## Truth Seeker

Ryujin said:


> There was an episode of the original "Outer Limits" that dealt with the transporter thing. An alien species made contact with Earth and provided inter planetary transportation tech. Go to a remote location and return, and you had to kill the remote body that still existed after you'd 'left.'




In Alter Carbon, that is the same method, but the body provided is called a 'Sleeve' and the storage of the persona ID is held in a stack.


----------



## Janx

And another thing. Narissa.

She got dogpiled by borg and I thought I saw a transporter flash.  She should have died, captured or been back with the fleet.  None of this skulking around crap.  Are the XB's so disconnected from the tech that they don't have sensors throughout the cube to detect skulking? Who the heck wasn't put on skulkcheck duty?

Oh, another thing. Who the frak has multiple targeting programs for destroying a stationary settlement on a planet, let alone FIVE of them.  Her correct line should have been "Destroy the target."  She spent too many words telling 200+ ships with their own captains who've mastered the obvious, delaying the inevitable.


----------



## Ryujin

Truth Seeker said:


> In Alter Carbon, that is the same method, but the body provided is called a 'Sleeve' and the storage of the persona ID is held in a stack.




In "Altered Carbon" they grow the "sleeves" and then slot in the "stack", with the wearer's persona in it. In the episode of "The Outer Limits" the body was essentially photocopied. The body on the sending side had to be destroyed, consciousness intact.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Janx said:


> And another thing. Narissa.
> 
> She got dogpiled by borg and I thought I saw a transporter flash.  She should have died, captured or been back with the fleet.  None of this skulking around crap.  *Are the XB's so disconnected from the tech that they don't have sensors throughout the cube to detect skulking? Who the heck wasn't put on skulkcheck duty?*
> 
> Oh, another thing. Who the frak has multiple targeting programs for destroying a stationary settlement on a planet, let alone FIVE of them.  Her correct line should have been "Destroy the target."  She spent too many words telling 200+ ships with their own captains who've mastered the obvious, delaying the inevitable.




Most of their outward sensors were removed, but they still do have that mental link of Hive mind sharing, as Picard showed in First Contact. And yes that was a emergency transporter, as it turned out, was within the Cube, not a out to ship one.


----------



## MarkB

Kaodi said:


> I hope in the second season they go more into the philosophy of what happened to Picard though. Picard 1.0 is, in a very real sense, dead (Is that why he appears to be there with Data at the end?). Though maybe the show will not see it that way considering how what transporters do has always been glossed over a bit. But it would, I think, be very, very interesting if Thomas Riker makes an appearance in Season 2 as a foil of sorts to Picard 2.0.



Some of the later TNG episodes clarify that transporters don't work that way. The body is not deleted and copied, instead the physical matter is transformed into a 'matter stream' that can be transmitted like a beam of energy - but importantly, the interrelationships between the composite components of the body, and even the body's consciousness itself, remain intact throughout the process.


----------



## bloodtide

The whole license thing just seems silly: they use and reference like 100 things from The Next Generation, so they must be allowed to use that.  So why no TNG ships?  Or even just a fleet of a bunch of different types?  Was this the Star Trek Clone War fleet or something?  Like Starfleet finally made a massive fleet of dedicated battleships...you know to promote peace?

So is everyone in Star Trek now immortal?  Just transfer your mind into a synth?  Guess everyone forgot that was done way back on TNG season 2.  (oh and it was done in the OS too).  

So...wait was Data alive for like the last 20 years then?  Um...why did they just never make him a new body then?  Were they..er..using the Data box to make all the synthitics?


----------



## Truth Seeker

bloodtide said:


> *The whole license thing just seems silly: they use and reference like 100 things from The Next Generation, so they must be allowed to use that.  So why no TNG ships?  Or even just a fleet of a bunch of different types?  Was this the Star Trek Clone War fleet or something?  Like Starfleet finally made a massive fleet of dedicated battleships...you know to promote peace?*
> 
> So is everyone in Star Trek now immortal?  Just transfer your mind into a synth?  Guess everyone forgot that was done way back on TNG season 2.  (oh and it was done in the OS too).
> 
> So...wait was Data alive for like the last 20 years then?  Um...why did they just never make him a new body then?  Were they..er..using the Data box to make all the synthitics?




As silly as it looks, it was a serious issue, when Bad Robot obtain the license, Paramount and CBS 'wanted' a 25% look, not to clash with the current IP, especially on merchandising when JJA wanted CBS to drop the entire 'Prime Trek' look to sell his own version, they said NO, cause that was a 30 to 40 million yearly revenue stream.

When the Kelvin timeline video game came out, it failed with out additional support from CBS or whoever else.

Although the first 3 movies from the KTL made more money than Prime Trek films, the merchandise support was not there to keep it in people's mind.

So, it is not a silly issue, CBS and Paramount protected their current value of Trek, and let BR fend on it is own. But with CBS with Moonves of late back then, it became a means to make money with license fees. NetFlix paid for Season 1 STD, refuses to invest in Season 2, and Amazon pick up the tab for STP and Season 3 for STD.

But from previous snippets released, that is it...both Streamers companies want out, cause the premise put out about the show originally was changed, from Netflix's view, and for Amazon, the ratings are not so hot.
Now, to whatever amount of insane cash spent on both shows, the return is has been little or none at all.

This is now reflective in the stock fall of late.

It not silly to anyone who owes shares in the company.


----------



## Ryujin

bloodtide said:


> The whole license thing just seems silly: they use and reference like 100 things from The Next Generation, so they must be allowed to use that.  So why no TNG ships?  Or even just a fleet of a bunch of different types?  Was this the Star Trek Clone War fleet or something?  Like Starfleet finally made a massive fleet of dedicated battleships...you know to promote peace?
> 
> So is everyone in Star Trek now immortal?  Just transfer your mind into a synth?  Guess everyone forgot that was done way back on TNG season 2.  (oh and it was done in the OS too).
> 
> So...wait was Data alive for like the last 20 years then?  Um...why did they just never make him a new body then?  Were they..er..using the Data box to make all the synthitics?




Seems like a fair bit of resources went into making that golem. Enough that Soong had lost his chance at immortality, when Picard was transferred into it.

Data's data was stored in a simulation, similar to the one they trapped Moriarty in during TNG. They made it pretty plain that Data was unique and that they failed miserably at copying his consciousness into a Soong style positronic brain, when they tried to copy it into B4. Seems that there was no way to restore him.


----------



## bloodtide

Truth Seeker said:


> As silly as it looks,




But Picard is set in the Original, Real timeline.  The show has tons of stuff from The Next Generation.  Characters and ships and items, all from TNG and Voyager.  So they must be ''allowed" to use them.


----------



## Dire Bare

bloodtide said:


> But Picard is set in the Original, Real timeline.  The show has tons of stuff from The Next Generation.  Characters and ships and items, all from TNG and Voyager.  So they must be ''allowed" to use them.




Visual IP is treated differently than referencing a thing. But still, you are right. We see the original Enterprise and (I think) the original uniforms in some of the flashback scenes.

I appreciate Truthseeker's share on the IP shenanigans going on, and I believe him, but . . . it is all rather silly from a "normal" person's point-of-view, if not from a profits-before-story corporate point-of-view. It seems to be a situation of studio executives having silly disputes over who gets to make _more_ money and who doesn't, putting their concerns over profits before the story itself. Making shows like ST: Picard (and the other shows, and the movies) does require a lot of money, but if they would just stop pissing with each other and put the story first, the profits would follow. Art before money creates beloved franchises, money before art destroys them.


----------



## Dire Bare

Ryujin said:


> Seems like a fair bit of resources went into making that golem. Enough that Soong had lost his chance at immortality, when Picard was transferred into it.
> 
> Data's data was stored in a simulation, similar to the one they trapped Moriarty in during TNG. They made it pretty plain that Data was unique and that they failed miserably at copying his consciousness into a Soong style positronic brain, when they tried to copy it into B4. Seems that there was no way to restore him.




Soong "losing" his chance of becoming a synthetic and Data never being downloaded into a new body at some point is plot by technobabble. Which, is a fine, long-standing Trek tradition!


----------



## Ryujin

bloodtide said:


> But Picard is set in the Original, Real timeline.  The show has tons of stuff from The Next Generation.  Characters and ships and items, all from TNG and Voyager.  So they must be ''allowed" to use them.




I think that things are still somewhat murky as to who owns what IP but the TV series stuff from TOS and TNG would likely be fair game for use by CBS.


----------



## Dire Bare

Janx said:


> Picard's death and resurrection too close together.  We just got the emotional punch to open the wetworks, and then cut scene and he's in a simulation and we know he's coming back.  Never undo what you just did in the immediate previous scene.  Keep the crying.  Show the remaining team, picking up pieces and saying goodbyes and fade out. Cut to Data saying something so Picard can say, "I never wanted it to end." Roll credits. MoFos will be cheering and cursing the season gods that they knew season 2 was greenlit but they killed him anyway and he's back and have to wait a year!  That news of resurrection is more powerful the more scenes we let happen without Picard.




I agree. I'm fine with Picard dying and being resurrected into a synth body, but it was too quick. Season finale cliffhangers are a Trek tradition, and hinting at his resurrection without fully showing it might have made a better ending. Heck, there you have your Season 2 "A Plot", the "Search for Picard"!


----------



## Ryujin

Ryujin said:


> I think that things are still somewhat murky as to who owns what IP but the TV series stuff from TOS and TNG would likely be fair game for use by CBS.




I just put it in RPG terms. He spent his xp on developing The Thing and now it's gone, so he can't make another


----------



## Dire Bare

Truth Seeker said:


> That ship is directly a Secret Hideout IP, not Paramount or CBS. And there are two variants of the ship, there are two different nacelles looks, but the main body is the same.




I wasn't sure what "Secret Hideout" was. So, I gave in and did the hard work of a Google-search . . . it's Kurtzmann's (the showrunner) production company in charge of the Trek television revival. Reading the entry for the company on Memory Alpha (Trek wiki site), was like reading your post above . . . my eyes glazed over with all the corporate silliness. I'm sure what Secret Hideout is was explained upthread somewhere . . .


----------



## FitzTheRuke

My wife is convinced that Arik Soong cloned himself, eventually to Noonian Soong who cloned himself to Alton Soong. It explains why they all look exactly like Brent Spiner (that's not how children work), have minds nearly the same as Arik (though maybe they've been slowly getting nicer), and why it was cannon that Noonian and his wife had NO real children. (They didn't.)


----------



## Janx

Dire Bare said:


> I wasn't sure what "Secret Hideout" was. So, I gave in and did the hard work of a Google-search . . . it's Kurtzmann's (the showrunner) production company in charge of the Trek television revival. Reading the entry for the company on Memory Alpha (Trek wiki site), was like reading your post above . . . my eyes glazed over with all the corporate silliness. I'm sure what Secret Hideout is was explained upthread somewhere . . .



they're the guys CBS hired to make star trek. 

Truthseeker pimps a conspiracy theory that Secret Hideout has to pay licensing fees everytime they show anything from "old trek" which I see no evidence of, and in fact, the Memory Core article says the Star Trek merchandising and licensing office is on Secret Hideouts offices. Which wouldn't happen if they were treated as outsiders and had to pay per usage of anything from old trek.









						Secret Hideout
					

Secret Hideout, Inc. is a television and movie production company founded and owned by Alex Kurtzman, incorporated on 21 August 2014 and operating out of Los Angeles, California, USA. [1] The company is producing the Star Trek series Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: Short Treks, Star Trek...




					memory-alpha.fandom.com
				




the idea seems to spawn from an art directive to make the Enterprise different by 21% (or whatever) from originals during the planning of the first Abrams Trek movie which was about making it look cool, but somehow fans ran off with it as some kind of conspiracy that CBS/Paramount wasn't letting them use original trek art of any kind.


----------



## cbwjm

Finally watched the latest episode and if people didn't shed a tear or two at the heartwarming, and heart breaking scene with data then just know that they're dead inside.


----------



## Truth Seeker

bloodtide said:


> But Picard is set in the Original, Real timeline.  The show has tons of stuff from The Next Generation.  Characters and ships and items, all from TNG and Voyager.  *So they must be ''allowed" to use them*.




Secret Hideout is a separate company altogether, they have paid for a variant look of Trek _The Kelvin Timeline as a example_ They are not a partner in company to CBS or Paramount.

They had paid to use a variant look of Star Trek Discovery.

They had paid to use a variant look of Star Trek Picard, with references from TOS, TNG, and Voyager.

They are not allowed with a free hand to tinker outright with any other Prime Trek material, without permission and payment to use any original likeness of said IP, that must be converted to a variant look not of the Prime Trek directly.

From 2009, Bad Robot want to have their own look of Trek, away from what CBS and Paramount has. The merchs side sputtered and died when CBS did not give in to end their own line. I believe also Paramount followed suit as well.

As far as I know, CBS and Paramount don't own stock in SH or Bad Report and vice versa. And yes I know, this premise is no longer discussed in the public domain between these companies, cause that is the way they want it.

And to referred back to the pics I posted in a earlier thread about the Fed duplicated fleet of the same ship, I just heard they finished the post production of the finale episode just last week. Last week...and we got the same ship around 120 to 150+ times. And no different class, no Prime Trek ships, just Secret Hideout's.


----------



## Truth Seeker

cbwjm said:


> Finally watched the latest episode and if people didn't shed a tear or two at the heartwarming, and heart breaking scene with data then just know that they're dead inside.



That was the very best part of the show....


----------



## Truth Seeker

Janx said:


> they're the guys CBS hired to make star trek.
> 
> *Truthseeker pimps a conspiracy theory that Secret Hideout has to pay licensing fees everytime they show anything from "old trek"* which I see no evidence of, and in fact, the Memory Core article says the Star Trek merchandising and licensing office is on Secret Hideouts offices. Which wouldn't happen if they were treated as outsiders and had to pay per usage of anything from old trek.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secret Hideout
> 
> 
> Secret Hideout, Inc. is a television and movie production company founded and owned by Alex Kurtzman, incorporated on 21 August 2014 and operating out of Los Angeles, California, USA. [1] The company is producing the Star Trek series Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: Short Treks, Star Trek...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> memory-alpha.fandom.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the idea seems to spawn from an art directive to make the Enterprise different by 21% (or whatever) from originals during the planning of the first Abrams Trek movie which was about making it look cool, but somehow fans ran off with it as some kind of conspiracy that CBS/Paramount wasn't letting them use original trek art of any kind.




I honestly don't have to pimp anything, when the evidence is out there, right in the open. Take care...


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> I wasn't sure what "Secret Hideout" was. So, I gave in and did the hard work of a Google-search . . . it's Kurtzmann's (the showrunner) production company in charge of the Trek television revival. Reading the entry for the company on Memory Alpha (Trek wiki site), was like reading your post above . . . my eyes glazed over with all the corporate silliness. I'm sure what Secret Hideout is was explained upthread somewhere . . .




Can I assume that SH is privately owned, yes?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Dire Bare said:


> Visual IP is treated differently than referencing a thing. But still, you are right. We see the original Enterprise and (I think) the original uniforms in some of the flashback scenes.
> 
> *I appreciate Truthseeker's share on the IP shenanigans going on,* and I believe him, but . . . it is all rather silly from a "normal" person's point-of-view, if not from a profits-before-story corporate point-of-view. It seems to be a situation of studio executives having silly disputes over who gets to make _more_ money and who doesn't, putting their concerns over profits before the story itself. Making shows like ST: Picard (and the other shows, and the movies) does require a lot of money, but if they would just stop pissing with each other and put the story first, the profits would follow. Art before money creates beloved franchises, money before art destroys them.




I will admit this, I would have never been a sturdy observer to such ongoing of IP usage, if wasn't for Star Wars, when it got bought, and when I heard that Expanded Universe legacy was being dropped, I said on that day, this will not bode well if all that material is abandoned outright. And yes, several small snippets has been used along the way, but the last set of the film Trilogy, well...everyone has their take to how they like it. But the end result business wise speak and show different.

I applied this to Star Trek, and I will admit this also, I did like the Kelvin Trek, didn't love it, just like it...and then came Discovery, and I began to see how many wrongs were occurring. I watch all 2 seasons, and said to myself, you abandon the core of what Trek meant and went on a bent to make it what actually?

Now with Picard, they got a little better, but the telltale signs of lazy writing, cheap production values, and didn't have a true direction to how the show should have started...began to show, and yes, there were bright spots along the way, but not enough to push out the smothering shadows that surrounded this show. And I have grown up with Trek as wee one. Follow almost everything, that I could follow and watch...saw the changes and accepted them, as progression.

I can't peg what Picard is, cause I don't see the message, it was here and there....and that is bad. As I has grown older, I do realize that some folks will not treat Trek the same way, we older folks understand what it meant to us, growing along with it.

And I will blame Morrus for this...my entry into EnWorld opened my eyes to many things I didn't know or understand at first. Today...is a different story.  

Live Long and Prosper...


----------



## Ogre Mage

FitzTheRuke said:


> Happy to be wrong. While the finale was a bit clunky, here and there, I found it quite satisfying. Also. lots of love. Which I like. Good season overall. Maybe it'll be like Next Gen and get even better as it goes along.




I loved _Next Generation_, but the first season was so bad, lol.


----------



## Hussar

Truth Seeker said:


> I can't peg what Picard is, cause I don't see the message, it was here and there....and that is bad. As I has grown older, I do realize that some folks will not treat Trek the same way, we older folks understand what it meant to us, growing along with it.




Here now.  I grew up with Trek.  Don't be including me in that "we" stuff.  Some of us aren't interested in watching regurgitated rehash of thirty year old stuff but would would rather watch new stories with new takes and new approaches.  

Trek means a lot of things to a lot of people.  Pretending to have a monopoly on meaning is just a waste of time.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Truth Seeker said:


> Just at a glance, the Fed side, it looks to be same ship model in mass. _checking now with a froze cut_. yupe...it is all the same ships or the majority. No Prime Trek ships, this is all of one Secret Hideout model. There are two direct views that shows, the same ship greatly duplicated, from the starboard and aft view.
> 
> View attachment 120226View attachment 120222View attachment 120223



The strange thing is they all look kinda identical, but they actually aren't. look at the second picture and compare two closest ships and compare their nacelles: 
The first (closest) seems to have some kind of red bussard collector on top in a small strip, and a relatively short blue stripe, the second one has a yellowish glue and seems larger (reminds me a bit more of the Sovereign nacelles), the blue strip is longer, and there is also a black detail on the nacelle. 

I believe there are supposed to be overall 4 seperate types in the picture, but they seem to be much more similar in style than normal.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Ogre Mage said:


> I loved _Next Generation_, but the first season was so bad, lol.




It sure was! It was _terrible_.


----------



## Mark Sabalauskas

Janx said:


> Picard's death and resurrection too close together.



Of course, if they hadn't resolved this, we'd have had to endure endless "speculation" about the next season or, more realistically, the resolution would arrive in the form of p/r related to Stewart filming season 2.

This was a cheap poke at emotions tied to really opaque themematic concerns (mentioned in Ready Room") the only winning move was not to do this.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

bloodtide said:


> The whole license thing just seems silly: they use and reference like 100 things from The Next Generation, so they must be allowed to use that.  So why no TNG ships?  Or even just a fleet of a bunch of different types?  Was this the Star Trek Clone War fleet or something?  Like Starfleet finally made a massive fleet of dedicated battleships...you know to promote peace?
> 
> So is everyone in Star Trek now immortal?  Just transfer your mind into a synth?  Guess everyone forgot that was done way back on TNG season 2.  (oh and it was done in the OS too).
> 
> So...wait was Data alive for like the last 20 years then?  Um...why did they just never make him a new body then?  Were they..er..using the Data box to make all the synthitics?




The real reason should be obvious - many TNG era ships don't even have 3D models, and even if they have, they were made in the 90s and early 2000s and are not up to the current CGI standards (quite possibly with proprietary or obsolete technology). They can't be reused. If they want to use them again, they have to make them again.

A bit less obvious, but a sign on how things work with CGI models: In an interview about their in-game models for ships in Star Trek Online, one of their ship artists said that they had access to the actual 3D models used by Discovery. But they still rebuild the entire model for their game, because attempts to simplify these models so they work in their game (with the performance people are used to) are futile. The models are good reference points, but they have to still build a completely new model.

And if you are going to make a model for a Star Trek show set 25 years since the last time we saw a Starfleet ship in-universe, you probably spend your efforts on making new ships for the era. They did already make a model of the Borg Cube and the Galaxy Class, that was probably deemed sufficient.


----------



## Dire Bare

Truth Seeker said:


> Secret Hideout is a separate company altogether, they have paid for a variant look of Trek _The Kelvin Timeline as a example_ They are not a partner in company to CBS or Paramount. They had paid to use a variant look of Star Trek Discovery. They had paid to use a variant look of Star Trek Picard, with references from TOS, TNG, and Voyager.




Secret Hideout is an independently owned company, owned by Alex Kurtzmann, one of new-Trek's showrunners, formed for the express purpose of making new Trek TV. Secret Hideout isn't owned by CBS or Paramount, but they very much ARE partners in bringing Trek back to the screen. I'm fairly sure Secret Hideout didn't pay for anything, they are being paid to create new Trek. It's not a licensing agreement, but work-for-hire.

While I believe a lot of claims about corporate ridiculousness, I'm beginning to think Janx is right and you are diving into conspiracy theory land.



> I honestly don't have to pimp anything, when the evidence is out there, right in the open. Take care...




Where? Do you have a link with people actually involved in the show discussing what you claim?[/QUOTE]


----------



## bloodtide

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> And if you are going to make a model for a Star Trek show set 25 years since the last time we saw a Starfleet ship in-universe, you probably spend your efforts on making new ships for the era. They did already make a model of the Borg Cube and the Galaxy Class, that was probably deemed sufficient.




Right so why did they not do that?  They did not have enough time?  They like only did the special effect last week?  Yea because computer animation is such a hard, non-essential, job.  Like someone could not have taken the whole...oh..hour or so to make like ten diffrent looking ships.  They did it back in the '90's, but what the more advanced computers 20 years later could not do it?


----------



## Morrus

bloodtide said:


> Yea because computer animation is such a hard, non-essential, job.  Like someone could not have taken the whole...oh..hour or so to make like ten diffrent looking ships.



Really, dude? You go do it then. You have an hour. 10 ships. Starting now.


----------



## Dire Bare

bloodtide said:


> Right so why did they not do that?  They did not have enough time?  They like only did the special effect last week?  Yea because computer animation is such a hard, non-essential, job.  Like someone could not have taken the whole...oh..hour or so to make like ten diffrent looking ships.  They did it back in the '90's, but what the more advanced computers 20 years later could not do it?




Good CGI isn't something you whip up in "an hour or so". It costs money. The software is often proprietary and expensive, but really its about man-hours. You have to pay people to do it, and it takes time. ST: Next Gen was one of the most expensive shows on TV at the time, and things really haven't gotten any cheaper.

I wish the production team would have done just that, budgeted the time and money to give us a better variety of Federation ships. But since they featured only briefly and were not the focus of the plot, I can understand why they didn't. 

I actually would have preferred just a handful of Romulan ships facing off against a handful of Federation ships, it would have been more in keeping with how things were portrayed in earlier Trek. I don't think we saw that many ships at Wolf 359 or during the major Dominion War "mass battle" episodes.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Dire Bare said:


> I actually would have preferred just a handful of Romulan ships facing off against a handful of Federation ships, it would have been more in keeping with how things were portrayed in earlier Trek. I don't think we saw that many ships at Wolf 359 or during the major Dominion War "mass battle" episodes.




I would have too. Ideally, a handful of ships with some variety. It would have made the "Power up your weapons and destroy the colony.... wait, no.... point 'em at the Starfleet ships!" a little less hard to take. 

Couldn't like, one or two of 'em just shoot the colony anyway? What difference would it make if ALL or SOME of them are pointed at the other ships? Honestly, that whole scene did it for me on an emotional/kewl-factor level, but doesn't remotely stand to a logic-pass. I think I won't pick at that scab any more.


----------



## Morrus

FitzTheRuke said:


> I would have too. Ideally, a handful of ships with some variety. It would have made the "Power up your weapons and destroy the colony.... wait, no.... point 'em at the Starfleet ships!" a little less hard to take.
> 
> Couldn't like, one or two of 'em just shoot the colony anyway? What difference would it make if ALL or SOME of them are pointed at the other ships? Honestly, that whole scene did it for me on an emotional/kewl-factor level, but doesn't remotely stand to a logic-pass. I think I won't pick at that scab any more.



Just one ship could have taken out that colony with one torpedo.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> Just one ship could have taken out that colony with one torpedo.




I can only imagine Commodore Oh's other captains, ready to fire, and she's like "No wait, there's a bunch of tiny little ships!" They roll their eyes, wondering why they can't just fire. "Awww... now there's a bunch of Starfleet!" They facepalm, wondering why they can't fire. "You win Riker! Retreat!" They look at their pilots in disbelief, nod to them while shaking their heads as they warp away...


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

bloodtide said:


> Right so why did they not do that?  They did not have enough time?  They like only did the special effect last week?  Yea because computer animation is such a hard, non-essential, job.  Like someone could not have taken the whole...oh..hour or so to make like ten diffrent looking ships.  They did it back in the '90's, but what the more advanced computers 20 years later could not do it?



If you want to see how much of a Star Trek spaceship you can get done within a single hour, here is one example:


I believe the estimation was something like 4 weeks of work in Star Trek Online to get a ship model ready. Though that includes everything, even the ship mechanics. YOu don't need the latter for a TV show, but in exchange, your model will probably be more complex with a higher polygon count.


----------



## bloodtide

Morrus said:


> Really, dude? You go do it then. You have an hour. 10 ships. Starting now.




Well, sure just give me one of them fancy Hollywood super computers and an hour of lead senior designer pay.



Dire Bare said:


> Good CGI isn't something you whip up in "an hour or so". It costs money. The software is often proprietary and expensive, but really its about man-hours. You have to pay people to do it, and it takes time. ST: Next Gen was one of the most expensive shows on TV at the time, and things really haven't gotten any cheaper.




Well, what about ''average" CGI or just "ok" CGI?  Way back in the '90's, like 20-30 years ago, with like Windows 95, they could make computer generatated fleets of diffrent ships.  Why is it so ''impossible" in 2020?  And even if computers are ''so" expensive...why not just use ''cheap" models...like remember back in the 90's when they used Halmark x-mas tree ornaments for models?


----------



## Ryujin

bloodtide said:


> Well, sure just give me one of them fancy Hollywood super computers and an hour of lead senior designer pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, what about ''average" CGI or just "ok" CGI?  Way back in the '90's, like 20-30 years ago, with like Windows 95, they could make computer generatated fleets of diffrent ships.  Why is it so ''impossible" in 2020?  And even if computers are ''so" expensive...why not just use ''cheap" models...like remember back in the 90's when they used Halmark x-mas tree ornaments for models?




Four letters: HDTV.


----------



## Morrus

bloodtide said:


> Well, sure just give me one of them fancy Hollywood super computers and an hour of lead senior designer pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, what about ''average" CGI or just "ok" CGI?  Way back in the '90's, like 20-30 years ago, with like Windows 95, they could make computer generatated fleets of diffrent ships.  Why is it so ''impossible" in 2020?  And even if computers are ''so" expensive...why not just use ''cheap" models...like remember back in the 90's when they used Halmark x-mas tree ornaments for models?



Do you literally think digital design requires no effort or ability? That’s astonishing!


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> Do you literally think digital design requires no effort or ability? That’s astonishing!




A lot of people (for some reason) like to assume that other people's jobs are easy. It's actually worse when they know a _little_ about what the job entails. Then they think, "I could do that!" or "That sounds easy/fun!"

I mean, I own a comic store, so my job is to sit around reading comics, right? AND I assume that _you_ just spend all day hanging out and posting on your forum, right? (That's sarcasm, neither of us would be successful at what we do if that were the case!)


----------



## Hussar

Been reading a few reviews about Picard here and there and a common refrain seems to be that it lacks a certain... something that makes it not feel really like Star Trek.  It's a similar criticism to ST: Disco as well.  I wonder if it has more to do with the format change than anything else.  

In older Trek, you got 24 (ish) episodes per season.  So, you might get a season long plot (say in DS9) introduced in the first two episodes of the season, then it would kind of fade to the background until mid-season, then there'd be two or three plotsy episodes and then it would fade back again until the end of the season and you'd get like 4 plot based episodes concluding the story arc.

Well, really, that's what we're getting with these shorter seasons - all the plot based stuff and none of the other stuff.  But, the other stuff is really where Star Trek developed so much of the character and world.  That's where the Holodeck episodes lived and the more character driven stories where Worf or Data ponders their particular existence for an hour.   

The new format is more along the lines of a really long movie.  They remind me of the old 80's TV Mini-series that we used to get.  Things like Shogun or various other, basically, 10 hour movies.  You just don't have the time to develop characters like you could in the older series.  You can't spend an entire hour on Odo trying to turn himself into bird or whatever.

I really wonder if that's what turns people off from the newer Trek.

--------------

Totally different question.

Did you notice the line in the last episode where the Romulan guy (sorry, can't remember names) talks about the legends/history and mentions that the story comes from before Vulcans settled their planet?  Interesting.


----------



## Zardnaar

Hussar said:


> Been reading a few reviews about Picard here and there and a common refrain seems to be that it lacks a certain... something that makes it not feel really like Star Trek.  It's a similar criticism to ST: Disco as well.  I wonder if it has more to do with the format change than anything else.
> 
> In older Trek, you got 24 (ish) episodes per season.  So, you might get a season long plot (say in DS9) introduced in the first two episodes of the season, then it would kind of fade to the background until mid-season, then there'd be two or three plotsy episodes and then it would fade back again until the end of the season and you'd get like 4 plot based episodes concluding the story arc.
> 
> Well, really, that's what we're getting with these shorter seasons - all the plot based stuff and none of the other stuff.  But, the other stuff is really where Star Trek developed so much of the character and world.  That's where the Holodeck episodes lived and the more character driven stories where Worf or Data ponders their particular existence for an hour.
> 
> The new format is more along the lines of a really long movie.  They remind me of the old 80's TV Mini-series that we used to get.  Things like Shogun or various other, basically, 10 hour movies.  You just don't have the time to develop characters like you could in the older series.  You can't spend an entire hour on Odo trying to turn himself into bird or whatever.
> 
> I really wonder if that's what turns people off from the newer Trek.
> 
> --------------
> 
> Totally different question.
> 
> Did you notice the line in the last episode where the Romulan guy (sorry, can't remember names) talks about the legends/history and mentions that the story comes from before Vulcans settled their planet?  Interesting.




 I'm not a massive Trekkie but we recently binge watched DS9 and really enjoyed it start to finish. 

STD was a struggle. 

Tried TNG and Voyager just couldn't get much past the first few episodes. 

 So childhood memories of TOS, all of DS9 which I also enjoyed in the 90s. 

Currently stuck at episode 3 of Picard watching other stuff instead. 

 It's just not very good compared with other current sci fi shows (Expanse, Orville, Better than Us) let alone old trek, Farscape, Babylon 5, Stargate etc.

 In not a Trekkie more of casual ST fan. Liked some if the movies, TNG, TOS and DS9. Even Star Wars is batting 50/50.


----------



## Dire Bare

Hussar said:


> Been reading a few reviews about Picard here and there and a common refrain seems to be that it lacks a certain... something that makes it not feel really like Star Trek.  It's a similar criticism to ST: Disco as well.  I wonder if it has more to do with the format change than anything else.
> 
> In older Trek, you got 24 (ish) episodes per season.  So, you might get a season long plot (say in DS9) introduced in the first two episodes of the season, then it would kind of fade to the background until mid-season, then there'd be two or three plotsy episodes and then it would fade back again until the end of the season and you'd get like 4 plot based episodes concluding the story arc.
> 
> Well, really, that's what we're getting with these shorter seasons - all the plot based stuff and none of the other stuff.  But, the other stuff is really where Star Trek developed so much of the character and world.  That's where the Holodeck episodes lived and the more character driven stories where Worf or Data ponders their particular existence for an hour.
> 
> The new format is more along the lines of a really long movie.  They remind me of the old 80's TV Mini-series that we used to get.  Things like Shogun or various other, basically, 10 hour movies.  You just don't have the time to develop characters like you could in the older series.  You can't spend an entire hour on Odo trying to turn himself into bird or whatever.
> 
> I really wonder if that's what turns people off from the newer Trek.
> 
> --------------
> 
> Totally different question.
> 
> Did you notice the line in the last episode where the Romulan guy (sorry, can't remember names) talks about the legends/history and mentions that the story comes from before Vulcans settled their planet?  Interesting.




There's a lot of folks who do prefer the more traditional episodic storytelling than the longer form serialized storytelling, it is very much why some folks are not digging new-Trek. But this is a shift in TV storytelling at large, it isn't just Star Trek.

While I LOVE ST: Discovery and ST: Picard, I would also love to see a new episodic show with storytelling similar to classic Trek. Perhaps where everything isn't quite reset to base at the end of every single episode and a stronger season arc . . .


----------



## Mallus

Dire Bare said:


> While I LOVE ST: Discovery and ST: Picard, I would also love to see a new episodic show with storytelling similar to classic Trek.



Picard did end with the perfect setup for a second season composed of Firefly/Leverage antics in the liminal spaces where the Federation had withdrawn its influence. You throw in a rivalry with some of the Fenris Rangers as Jean-Luc muscles in on their schtick.

Or go all-in on 1980s nostalgia and make them the A-Team in (Federation) space.


----------



## MarkB

Mallus said:


> Picard did end with the perfect setup for a second season composed of Firefly/Leverage antics in the liminal spaces where the Federation had withdrawn its influence. You throw in a rivalry with some of the Fenris Rangers as Jean-Luc muscles in on their schtick.
> 
> Or go all-in on 1980s nostalgia and make them the A-Team in (Federation) space.



I've always thought the Star Trek setting would lend itself well to a smaller ship and crew with a more covert-ops theme. This isn't exactly how I pictured them getting there, but if they go that way I'm certainly up for it.


----------



## Ryujin

The whole thing reminds me of a FASA ST:RPG campaign I ran, back in the '80s, in which I saddled a retired Star Fleet crew with a Mission Class II Commercial Transport, with a single (black market) Phaser array, then sent them off adventuring.



			https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/fasa-fsrm/fasa-fsrm-II-29.jpg


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> The whole thing reminds me of a FASA ST:RPG campaign I ran, back in the '80s, in which I saddled a retired Star Fleet crew with a Mission Class II Commercial Transport, with a single (black market) Phaser array, then sent them off adventuring.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/fasa-fsrm/fasa-fsrm-II-29.jpg



Those stat blocks.

So dreamy. I still have all those books.


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> Those stat blocks.
> 
> So dreamy. I still have all those books.




I just went and pulled the adventure module I used, to introduce them to the ship, because I couldn't remember the class


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> I just went and pulled the adventure module I used, to introduce them to the ship, because I couldn't remember the class



Those starships are the biggest influence on my WOIN starship stuff. It’s a love letter to FASA Trek.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hussar said:


> In older Trek, you got 24 (ish) episodes per season.  So, you might get a season long plot (say in DS9) introduced in the first two episodes of the season, then it would kind of fade to the background until mid-season, then there'd be two or three plotsy episodes and then it would fade back again until the end of the season and you'd get like 4 plot based episodes concluding the story arc.



Seriously, DS9 was the only show that did make any longer lasting story arcs. But even DS9 was much more episodic, a big part of the story of the episode was still self-contained - it's the Dominion War, yes, but this is the one particular episode where they have to recover the Dominion ship, and this is the episode where Nog recovers from his war injury.



> Well, really, that's what we're getting with these shorter seasons - all the plot based stuff and none of the other stuff.  But, the other stuff is really where Star Trek developed so much of the character and world.  That's where the Holodeck episodes lived and the more character driven stories where Worf or Data ponders their particular existence for an hour.
> 
> The new format is more along the lines of a really long movie.  They remind me of the old 80's TV Mini-series that we used to get.  Things like Shogun or various other, basically, 10 hour movies.  You just don't have the time to develop characters like you could in the older series.  You can't spend an entire hour on Odo trying to turn himself into bird or whatever.
> 
> I really wonder if that's what turns people off from the newer Trek.




I think a key part of "old" Trek (and much of old TV shows) is that the major emotional resonant arcs and drama is resolved within that episode. You get a sort of resolution.

Picard is not really doing that. You might get new information that puts things in a different light, but there is no story arc that really is finished. It all ties together much more tightly. And I think that means that any moral ambiguities and questionable actions remains unresolved much longer than usually. And some people just don't want that from Star Trek.

I like it, however. It is kinda what I hoped for with a new era of Star Trek streaming.
--------------



> Totally different question.
> 
> Did you notice the line in the last episode where the Romulan guy (sorry, can't remember names) talks about the legends/history and mentions that the story comes from before Vulcans settled their planet?  Interesting.



Yes. I think most of us (me certainly) have forgotten about it, but there was a TOS episode called "Return to Tomorrow" where an alien suggests some relationship to the Vulcan species and Spock mentions that the archaeological record on Vulcan is spotty and might suggest it is not actually the Vulcan home.

Heck, the episode even has a young Pulaski, or rather, Diane Muldaur playing a different Star Trek character!

Stuff like this is why I always find it ridicilous that people think they spot some canon inconsistency or something else they don't like and spew that the writers don't know or care Star Trek... They definitely do. They just get different ideas from that than you do.


----------



## Ryujin

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Yes. I think most of us (me certainly) have forgotten about it, but there was a TOS episode called "Return to Tomorrow" where an alien suggests some relationship to the Vulcan species and Spock mentions that the archaeological record on Vulcan is spotty and might suggest it is not actually the Vulcan home.
> 
> Heck, the episode even has a young Pulaski, or rather, Diane Muldaur playing a different Star Trek character!
> 
> Stuff like this is why I always find it ridicilous that people think they spot some canon inconsistency or something else they don't like and spew that the writers don't know or care Star Trek... They definitely do. They just get different ideas from that than you do.




"It would, however, explain some aspects of Vulcan prehistory."


----------



## Morrus

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Stuff like this is why I always find it ridicilous that people think they spot some canon inconsistency or something else they don't like and spew that the writers don't know or care Star Trek... They definitely do. They just get different ideas from that than you do.




It's the same problem that Star Wars has now. A toxic fan base which has written the future in their heads already, and when the filmmaker's vision isn't the exact same thing they imagined, accuses them of being 'lazy', 'hating Star Trek', 'not understanding the show' and all sorts of stupid stuff. It's horrible, and an anethma to any sort of creativity. Maybe all these things should just die (they won't; they perform perfectly well).


----------



## Zardnaar

Toxic= anyone who disagrees with me. 

 Make good Star Trek and Star Wars its fairly simple. Even Disney can manage 50/50 with Star Wars (Rebels, Rogue One, Clone Wars, Mandalorian are good).


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Zardnaar said:


> Toxic= anyone who disagrees with me.




Realistically, Toxic (in this case) = Anyone who attacks a fan or creator personally because they don't like the direction or content of a work of fiction.

No one minds that they don't like the work. It's how they go about expressing it.


----------



## Morrus

Zardnaar said:


> Toxic= anyone who disagrees with me.




That's a fundamental misunderstanding, and insultingly dismissal of what that term means. Unless you identify as toxic, in which case, sure. Anybody who disagrees with you.

Toxic means personally attacking creators for not doing exactly what you wanted them to do. If you equate that with everybody who disagrees with you, that says a lot about you.


----------



## Zardnaar

FitzTheRuke said:


> Realistically, Toxic (in this case) = Anyone who attacks a fan or creator personally because they don't like the direction or content of a work of fiction.




 Yeah probably. I don't blame individuals to much more corporations. 
 They're giving Star Trek, Star Wars levels of money. But Star Trek movies have never hit Star Wars money, and similar for the ratings. 

 That seems to be the big problem.


----------



## Zardnaar

Morrus said:


> That's a fundamental misunderstanding, and insultingly dismissal of what that term means. Unless you identify as toxic, in which case, sure. Anybody who disagrees with you.
> 
> Toxic means personally attacking creators for not doing exactly what you wanted them to do. If you equate that with everybody who disagrees with you, that says a lot about you.




 I'ma casual Star Trek fan, I don't know Canon well enough to argue over it. 

 I can tell there's a difference in quality between say DS9 and the new trek. 

 Struggling with season 1 of Voyager and TNG, Picard and STD are easier to watch than those. Maybe DS9 is the most consistent trek idk I'm not a Trekkie.


----------



## Morrus

Zardnaar said:


> I'ma casual Star Trek fan, I don't know Canon well enough to argue over it.
> 
> I can tell there's a difference in quality between say DS9 and the new trek.
> 
> Struggling with season 1 of Voyager and TNG, Picard and STD are easier to watch than those. Maybe DS9 is the most consistent trek idk I'm not a Trekkie.



I dunno. You're the guy who reponded to me with  "Toxic= anyone who disagrees with me." You appear to be hastily changing the subject. Can you respond to that?


----------



## Zardnaar

Morrus said:


> I dunno. You're the guy who said  "Toxic= anyone who disagrees with me." You appear to be hastily changing the subject. Can you respond to that?



 You seem to dismiss a lot of criticism as toxic. 

As I said I don't know Canon that well but I know what a Klingon is. Early STD for example was a bit confusing as I wasn't 100% sure what the new Klingons were. 

 They obviously reimagined them but in my head cannon Klingons are as presented in the 80s movies, TNG, DS9.

 It came across as disjointed ymmv. Might sound trivial but it would be like if Star Wars drastically changed wookies. 

 So you're kinda confused right out the gate.


----------



## Morrus

Zardnaar said:


> You seem to dismiss a lot of criticism as toxic.




A lot of it _is_ toxic. Again, _you're_ the guy who said "Toxic= anyone who disagrees with me." Which indicates that you don't understand what the phrase 'toxic fans' means.



> As I said I don't know Canon that well but I know what a Klingon is.




Do you? Which one of these many variations is the "correct" KIingon, and why?







































> So you're kinda confused right out the gate.



No, mate. I'm crystal clear.


----------



## Ryujin

When it came to the Klingons from ST: The Motion Picture and onward through ST:Voyager and the TNG movies, I put it down to two things:

1) TOS Klingons were criticized as looking too Hispanic.
2) They finally got a budget


----------



## Zardnaar

Morrus said:


> A lot of it _is_ toxic. Again, _you're_ the guy who said "Toxic= anyone who disagrees with me." Which indicates that you don't understand what the phrase 'toxic fans' means.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you? Which one of these many variations is the "correct" KIingon, and why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, mate. I'm crystal clear.




 As I said for me I associate Worf and the Klingons from movie V-VI and TNG/DS9 as the best Klingon. 

 As I said casual fan I don't remember much of TOS.  It's something I watched on Saturday mornings as a kid. I don't remember the plots just the characters and things like the transporters and tribles. 

 Generally retcons and extreme changes don't go over well. They built up to the Dominion War for example over multiple 20 episode seasons.


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> When it came to the Klingons from ST: The Motion Picture and onward through ST:Voyager and the TNG movies, I put it down to two things:
> 
> 1) TOS Klingons were criticized as looking too Hispanic.
> 2) They finally got a budget



There's at least four clear different designs!


----------



## Morrus

Zardnaar said:


> As I said for me I associate Worf and the Klingons from movie V-VI and TNG/DS9 as the best Klingon.
> 
> As I said casual fan I don't remember much of TOS.  It's something I watched on Saturday mornings as a kid. I don't remember the plots just the characters and things like the transporters and tribles.
> 
> Generally retcons and extreme changes don't go over well. They built up to the Dominion War for example over multiple 20 episode seasons.



You are the most evasive person I've ever spoken to. You don't answer a single question put to you. You should be a politician. It's not a conversation, it's just a series of non sequiters.


----------



## Zardnaar

Ryujin said:


> When it came to the Klingons from ST: The Motion Picture and onward through ST:Voyager and the TNG movies, I put it down to two things:
> 
> 1) TOS Klingons were criticized as looking too Hispanic.
> 2) They finally got a budget




 Well the kinda looked the same
 for what 20 odd years? Some individuals looked slightly different. 

 That's a Klingon to me anyway shrugs.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Zardnaar said:


> Generally retcons and extreme changes don't go over well. They built up to the Dominion War for example over multiple 20 episode seasons.




Season Two of discovery had some of the Klingons "grow their hair" back to the TNG crimped-look, and it showed that they weren't as far away from the previous Klingon design as it seemed at first. Also, they came up with the idea of "Clans" - many of which had more old-style features from various Trek-eras.

They did the same thing in Picard with Romulans. Some of them looked just like the Kelvin-verse movie version (Nero and his crew) while others looked like TNG Romulans, and a few looked really old-school. The idea, I think, is to show that these aliens have as much variety to their ethnicities as us humans do (rather than, say, good-looking Hollywood white folk with facial lumps for every alien.)

I really like it. (And I, like you, thought Disco-Klingons were a step too far at first.)


----------



## Zardnaar

Morrus said:


> You are the most evasive person I've ever spoken to. You don't answer a single question put to you. You should be a politician. It's not a conversation, it's just a series of non sequiters.




 You directly asked what is the correct Klingon, I told you how's that evasive? 

 To me the early movies, DS9 and TNG are my idea if a Klingon.

 TOS they didn't really have a budget and made things up as they went along.


----------



## Zardnaar

FitzTheRuke said:


> Season Two of discovery had some of the Klingons "grow their hair" back to the TNG crimped-look, and it showed that they weren't as far away from the previous Klingon design as it seemed at first. Also, they came up with the idea of "Clans" - many of which had more old-style features from various Trek-eras.
> 
> They did the same thing in Picard with Romulans. Some of them looked just like the Kelvin-verse movie version (Nero and his crew) while others looked like TNG Romulans, and a few looked really old-school. The idea, I think, is to show that these aliens have as much variety to their ethnicities as us humans do (rather than, say, good-looking Hollywood white folk with facial lumps for every alien.)
> 
> I really like it. (And I, like you, thought Disco-Klingons were a step too far at first.)




As I said early STD I was a bit confused. I think that's supposed to be a Klingon but I'm not 100% sure. It was very clear fairly quickly they were supposed to be Klingons, didn't like it though. 

 Blame Worf. Greatest Klingon ever.


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> You are the most evasive person I've ever spoken to. You don't answer a single question put to you. You should be a politician. It's not a conversation, it's just a series of non sequiters.




Not a fan of the latest iteration, as I've said previously. I think that was change for change's sake.


----------



## Ryujin

Zardnaar said:


> As I said early STD I was a bit confused. I think that's supposed to be a Klingon but I'm not 100% sure. It was very clear fairly quickly they were supposed to be Klingons, didn't like it though.
> 
> Blame Worf. Greatest Klingon ever.




For the "greatest Kingon ever" and a supposed ultimate warrior type, he sure spent a lot of his time getting his arse handed to him


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Zardnaar said:


> Blame Worf. Greatest Klingon ever.




I agree, but that doesn't mean they all have to look like Michael Dorn! I think they were trying to solve the whole question of why they've looked so different over the years by explaining "there's a lot of different looking Klingons." (Same with Romulans in Picard). Problem is solved going forward, IMO.

Of course, Truth Seeker might say that it's because they didn't want to pay for the license to use the definitive Klingon-look.  Maybe that's true!


----------



## Morrus

Zardnaar said:


> Generally retcons and extreme changes don't go over well.




Sure about that? The change from TOS to TNG was the most extreme Klingon change there has been in all of Trek history, and yet you say that you think the latter are "the best Klingons". Does that not show that extreme changes frequently do go over extremely well?


----------



## Zardnaar

Ryujin said:


> Not a fan of the latest iteration, as I've said previously. I think that was change for change's sake.




 This just don't like the look. To much CGI as well. 

 I quite like STIV the one with the whales.  Flasy special effects not needed.


----------



## Janx

Morrus said:


> You are the most evasive person I've ever spoken to. You don't answer a single question put to you. You should be a politician. It's not a conversation, it's just a series of non sequiters.



Isn't Zardnaar the one who's writes long posts about what's wrong with Star Wars and maybe kinda doesn't like it anymore.

aka, a toxic fan.

I think the rest of us may have quibbles about various iterations of the show, but when it comes on, we watch and usually enjoy it. That's healthy.

Spending too much time talking about something you don't like? Not healthy. It's toxic.


----------



## Waller

Janx said:


> Isn't Zardnaar the one who's writes long posts about what's wrong with Star Wars and maybe kinda doesn't like it anymore.




Turns all Sar Wars threads into rants about The Last Jedi, so nobody can ever talk about Star Wars? Yep, that's him!


----------



## Zardnaar

Morrus said:


> Sure about that? The change from TOS to TNG was the most extreme Klingon change there has been in all of Trek history, and yet you clearly state that you think the latter are "the best Klingons". Does that not clearly lend the lie to your claim that extreme changes don't go over well, and show that they frequently do, indeed, fo over extremely well?
> 
> 
> Toxic= anyone who disagrees with me.



And you're still ignoring this. If you intend to just ignore that you said it, let me know, and I'll stop asking. I don't want to be a pest. Just say the word; let me know you don't stand by it. Otherwise, I'll keep asking until you actually answer. 
[/QUOTE]

 Your statement to me seemed aggressive. You've point blank told people to stop watching stuff despite some hoping things get better. 

Or people do stop watching and ratings end up in the toilet. When shows don't get enough eyeballs they get cancelled.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Zardnaar said:


> I quite like STIV the one with the whales.  Flasy special effects not needed.




I liked that one too, but a lot of people saw it as a cheep excuse to set it in the "real" world so they saved $ on special effects, and went for modern comedy over a decent sci-fi plot. They'd be right, but I still liked it.


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> For the "greatest Kingon ever" and a supposed ultimate warrior type, he sure spent a lot of his time getting his arse handed to him



He had the Worf problem. They told you (but didn't show you) that he was tough. Then showed that bad guys wee tough by having them beat him. All the time.

Also see Jaime Lannister - greatest swordsman in the realm, my arse! Never saw a shred of evidence to prove that! They really needed to show that from time to time rather than just tell us, because he got beaten constantly.


----------



## Morrus

FitzTheRuke said:


> I liked that one too, but a lot of people saw it as a cheep excuse to set it in the "real" world so they saved $ on special effects, and went for modern comedy over a decent sci-fi plot. They'd be right, but I still liked it.



My favourite Trek movie. Most people say Khan, but IV edges it out for me.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> My favourite Trek movie. Most people say Khan, but IV edges it out for me.




I know, right? It was just plain fun to watch. What more do you want from a movie, really?


----------



## Zardnaar

FitzTheRuke said:


> I liked that one too, but a lot of people saw it as a cheep excuse to set it in the "real" world so they saved $ on special effects, and went for modern comedy over a decent sci-fi plot. They'd be right, but I still liked it.




 What's that old saying about only every second movie being good?

Treks a bit inconsistent. I remember liking First Contact and parts if TNG but mein gott season 1 is a slog. I've had trekkues suggest skipping to season 3 of TNG pick it up from there. 

 I didn't religiously watch it in the 90s just the occasional episode.


----------



## Morrus

FitzTheRuke said:


> I know, right? It was just plain fun to watch. What more do you want from a movie, really?



I can quote every line of that film. Every note of the soundtrack is burned into my brain. It's peak Trek.


----------



## Zardnaar

FitzTheRuke said:


> I know, right? It was just plain fun to watch. What more do you want from a movie, really?



 This as I kid I didn't get Khan, probably because I didn't know who Khan was. 

 III was also kinda rough (as an 8 year old). 
IV and First Contact are my favorites.

 What I can remember is fragmentary of TOS. Same with old Dr Who, original Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, Blake 7 etc.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Zardnaar said:


> Treks a bit inconsistent. I remember liking First Contact and parts if TNG but mein gott season 1 is a slog.




I think nearly everyone agrees that while TNG S1 got Trek going again, it's pretty bad. 3-6 are really good, and S7 has a few stinker episodes, but is otherwise fine. (I draw the line at Beverly getting raped by her grandma's alien lover - that episode was a serious piece of trash.)


----------



## Zardnaar

FitzTheRuke said:


> I think nearly everyone agrees that while TNG S1 got Trek going again, it's pretty bad. 3-6 are really good, and S7 has a few stinker episodes, but is otherwise fine. (I draw the line at Beverly getting raped by her grandma's alien lover - that episode was a serious piece of trash.)




 Yeah using that logic STD and Picard aren't that bad. I don't think they're terrible, I don't understand Canon or the stardate thing that well. It just has to pass the fun to watch part. 

 Peak trek for me DS9, IV, First Contact. Last movie I saw was Nemesis wasn't great.

 I'm not deep enough into Picard as we've been sidetracked with everything else we're watching atm but will finish it off in the next few weeks.


----------



## Mallus

But surely we can all agree that Irish Romulans are best Romulans!

Seriously, season 2 — whenever it will premiere — better have at least twice the Laris and Zhaban.


----------



## cbwjm

FitzTheRuke said:


> I agree, but that doesn't mean they all have to look like Michael Dorn! I think they were trying to solve the whole question of why they've looked so different over the years by explaining "there's a lot of different looking Klingons." (Same with Romulans in Picard). Problem is solved going forward, IMO.
> 
> Of course, Truth Seeker might say that it's because they didn't want to pay for the license to use the definitive Klingon-look.  Maybe that's true!



I recall in ST enterprise that they gave a reason for Klingons who didn't have any brow ridges was due to a based on an enhanced human genetics plague that had ravaged the empire and the cure made the ridges disappear. 

In a DS9 episode where they went back in time they asked Worf what was up and he said it was a difficult time in Klingon history which they don't like to talk about.

They've (the writers of the various shows) have definitely thought about the differences fairly early on.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

cbwjm said:


> They've (the writers of the various shows) have definitely thought about the differences fairly early on.




Yeah, I know, but "Different Klingons look different" works better for me. It's simpler, too. (And it works for other alien races, like the Romulans in Picard, just as well.) It also frees them up to have a wider variety of humans play them, too.


----------



## DammitVictor

FitzTheRuke said:


> Realistically, Toxic (in this case) = Anyone who attacks a fan or creator personally because they don't like the direction or content of a work of fiction.




It's worth remembering that if a creator invents a new property you don't like, it doesn't have any effect on the properties you like and it's easy to say that it exists for the people who like it and go on with your life.

If a new creator takes over for a property you like, and consistently changes it in ways you don't like, they're personally responsible for the property you like being erased from the public memory and there's not a goddamned thing you can do about it.  

The source of that problem is beyond the scope of this forum... but fans of a property that has changed hands, to its detriment, do perhaps deserve a little more sympathy than they get in these kinds of discussions.


----------



## Dire Bare

Morrus said:


> Which one of these many variations is the "correct" KIingon, and why?




#6 definitely! He's Worf-tastic!



Ryujin said:


> Not a fan of the latest iteration, as I've said previously. I think that was change for change's sake.




Ugh. The phrase "change for change's sake" is the toxic fan's mantra. Not to pick on you, but NOBODY simply changes things "just because", not in Star Trek, not in D&D (I heard this soooo much during the height of the edition wars). The changes are made to improve the look and story, and whether they are _good_ changes or not is obviously subjective.



Morrus said:


> Sure about that? The change from TOS to TNG was the most extreme Klingon change there has been in all of Trek history, and yet you say that you think the latter are "the best Klingons". Does that not show that extreme changes frequently do go over extremely well?




While our awareness of toxic fandom is more acute now that we are blessed/cursed by the internet, toxic fans were bitching back in the day about all the changes Next Gen made to the canon, both visually (bumpy Klingon heads) and story. In various interviews, I've heard multiple Next Gen actors comment on the hate they got during the first season or so, and how disheartening it was. It was particularly rough on our favorite teenager in space, Wesley Crusher (Wil Wheaton).


----------



## Hussar

Heh, I remember the issues that people had when Tim Russ played Tuvok on Voyager.  A BLACK Vulcan?!!?!!?!!?!!  Vulcan's aren't black.  

People get things engraved in their brains far too deeply.


----------



## Zardnaar

Hussar said:


> Heh, I remember the issues that people had when Tim Russ played Tuvok on Voyager.  A BLACK Vulcan?!!?!!?!!?!!  Vulcan's aren't black.
> 
> People get things engraved in their brains far too deeply.




 I'm no expert but Vulcans are very close to humans so one could expect human skin tones lol.

 When I was a kid the races thing didn't really matter and half the time you couldn't tell anyway due to makeup. 

 I didn't really get why having a Russian on the crew of TOS was a big deal. 

 I suppose growing up in NZ we avoid a lot if Americanisms.


----------



## Rabulias

Zardnaar said:


> Treks a bit inconsistent. I remember liking First Contact and parts if TNG but mein gott season 1 is a slog. I've had trekkues suggest skipping to season 3 of TNG pick it up from there.



Yeah, TNG season 1 is awful, season 2 gets a little better, but by season 3 they have found their footing and it is pretty solid on through season 7, IMO. If you can grit your teeth and get through them, seasons 1 and 2 do introduce some characters and history that play in to later (better) stories.


----------



## Zardnaar

Rabulias said:


> Yeah, TNG season 1 is awful, season 2 gets a little better, but by season 3 they have found their footing and it is pretty solid on through season 7, IMO. If you can grit your teeth and get through them, seasons 1 and 2 do introduce some characters and history that play in to later (better) stories.




 Might have to try again. It's my wife her opinion is "life's to short for bad TV". 

 My tolerance for pain is a bit higher but she will pull the plug fairly fast esp if we have other stuff to watch.

 Best of TNG is better, overall DS9 is better?


----------



## Ryujin

Dire Bare said:


> While our awareness of toxic fandom is more acute now that we are blessed/cursed by the internet, toxic fans were bitching back in the day about all the changes Next Gen made to the canon, both visually (bumpy Klingon heads) and story. In various interviews, I've heard multiple Next Gen actors comment on the hate they got during the first season or so, and how disheartening it was. It was particularly rough on our favorite teenager in space, Wesley Crusher (Wil Wheaton).




You're right, it's not the right expression. It's more that old theatrical practice of "putting my own stamp on it." It's both to show ownership and because critics tend to think that if a property doesn't evolve in some way, even something like a Shakespearean play, it's "tired and old."


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Morrus said:


> He had the Worf problem. They told you (but didn't show you) that he was tough. Then showed that bad guys wee tough by having them beat him. All the time.
> 
> Also see Jaime Lannister - greatest swordsman in the realm, my arse! Never saw a shred of evidence to prove that! They really needed to show that from time to time rather than just tell us, because he got beaten constantly.



At least Worf had Deep Space Nine going for him, there he got to show off his combat skills. (Less so other Klingons - the DS9 command staff and Cardassians like Dukat and Garak were clearly superior to the average Klingon in melee combat. Cardassian Officer and Federation Officer are clearly OP classes.)


----------



## Mort

Dire Bare said:


> There's a lot of folks who do prefer the more traditional episodic storytelling than the longer form serialized storytelling, it is very much why some folks are not digging new-Trek. But this is a shift in TV storytelling at large, it isn't just Star Trek.
> 
> While I LOVE ST: Discovery and ST: Picard, I would also love to see a new episodic show with storytelling similar to classic Trek. Perhaps where everything isn't quite reset to base at the end of every single episode and a stronger season arc . . .




What your looking for is The Orville! It may have started as a Trek homage/parody but it has really matured. Sure there's more toilet humor than Trek ever had (It's a Seth McFarlane vehicle after all) but the episodes, particularly the later ones are really solid. I would put up Identity (1 & II, 2nd season) up against any Trek episode for quality.


----------



## Rabulias

Zardnaar said:


> Best of TNG is better, overall DS9 is better?



That's a tough question, but IMO TNG has more great individual episodes than DS9, but DS9 had such a great "big story" backdrop that I loved.


----------



## Mallus

Zardnaar said:


> Best of TNG is better, overall DS9 is better?



Replace the question mark with a period and you have it right!


----------



## Ryujin

Same writers once TNG folded. Second season of DS9?


----------



## Dire Bare

Ryujin said:


> You're right, it's not the right expression. It's more that old theatrical practice of "putting my own stamp on it." It's both to show ownership and because critics tend to think that if a property doesn't evolve in some way, even something like a Shakespearean play, it's "tired and old."




Certainly, when creating a new show, or when new creatives get involved with an existing show, there is an urge to "make it your own" as you mention. But this is rarely the sole reason why changes are made, although it's certainly part of the calculus.


----------



## Dire Bare

Mort said:


> What your looking for is The Orville! It may have started as a Trek homage/parody but it has really matured. Sure there's more toilet humor than Trek ever had (It's a Seth McFarlane vehicle after all) but the episodes, particularly the later ones are really solid. I would put up Identity (1 & II, 2nd season) up against any Trek episode for quality.




The Orville is . . . . okay, I'm enjoying it for the most part. It's certainly McFarlane's love letter to Star Trek, mixed with his personal brand of humor. I find McFarlane funny in small doses, but episode after episode it gets tiring. When I watch individual episodes of Orville or his earlier animated series (Family Guy, etc), I always laugh . . . but I can't watch more than 2 or 3 in a row before getting tired of the humor style.


----------



## Mort

Dire Bare said:


> The Orville is . . . . okay, I'm enjoying it for the most part. It's certainly McFarlane's love letter to Star Trek, mixed with his personal brand of humor. I find McFarlane funny in small doses, but episode after episode it gets tiring. When I watch individual episodes of Orville or his earlier animated series (Family Guy, etc), I always laugh . . . but I can't watch more than 2 or 3 in a row before getting tired of the humor style.




That's totally fair.

I just find I like the Orville's attitude that humanity, while it's still the same basically, has mostly evolved into a more optimistic/benevolent society. And while the show has some seriously dark themes - it really evokes the old Star Trek theme of hope and betterment.

I like the new Star Treks (Discovery and Picard) but they're just SO dark. Nearly EVERY character is deeply flawed and wrestling with past/current demons, it's almost always a "who can you trust" situation and the answer is rarely  - Starfleet. Just like you have trouble watching more than 3 or so Orville episodes, I find I have to take a long break between episodes of the 2 new series (Them not being immediately bingeable was actually pretty good for me).


----------



## Dire Bare

Mort said:


> That's totally fair.
> 
> I just find I like the Orville's attitude that humanity, while it's still the same basically, has mostly evolved into a more optimistic/benevolent society. And while the show has some seriously dark themes - it really evokes the old Star Trek theme of hope and betterment.
> 
> I like the new Star Treks (Discovery and Picard) but they're just SO dark. Nearly EVERY character is deeply flawed and wrestling with past/current demons, it's almost always a "who can you trust" situation and the answer is rarely  - Starfleet. Just like you have trouble watching more than 3 or so Orville episodes, I find I have to take a long break between episodes of the 2 new series (Them not being immediately bingeable was actually pretty good for me).




The idea that Starfleet itself cannot be trusted . . . it's certainly cast into doubt in ST: Picard, but by the end of the 10-episode series, Starfleet steps up and saves the day. The villain of the piece isn't Starfleet, but a conspiracy within Starfleet (the half-Vulcan, half-Romulan sleeper agent in charge of Starfleet Security). And this sort of problem, officials within Starfleet as corrupt, is a long-standing theme that stared with Next Gen! Heck, in Next Gen, every time somebody showed up in an admiral's uniform I got immediately suspicious!

ST: Discovery is similar. Starfleet isn't the problem, but corrupt officials within. Captain Lorca and Section 31. Again, not themes uncommon to earlier Star Trek series and movies.

I think the difference is that in the older series, the corrupt official or Section 31 baddie would show up for one episode and everything goes back to "normal" by episode's end. With the occasional plot point or villain revisited later in the season. In ST: Picard and ST: Discovery, these themes are the main story arc for an entire season.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

FaerieGodfather said:


> Fans of a property that has changed hands, to its detriment, do perhaps deserve a little more sympathy than they get in these kinds of discussions.




I don't think anyone isn't sympathetic to the core basics of that complaint. It's IMO, two things that turn the "I don't like the new direction" argument toxic: 1) The idea that it's 100% objective fact that the new direction sucks and anyone who disagrees deserves whatever they get; and 2) That the creator is so loathsome for "ruining" the property that they deserve whatever abuse is thrown at them.

Don't like Last Jedi? That's totally cool with me - it certainly wasn't perfect. Hate me because I liked it? Want (or at least say you want) Rian Johnson to die in a fire? Toxic.


----------



## Dire Bare

FitzTheRuke said:


> I don't think anyone isn't sympathetic to the core basics of that complaint. It's IMO, two things that turn the "I don't like the new direction" argument toxic: 1) The idea that it's 100% objective fact that the new direction sucks and anyone who disagrees deserves whatever they get; and 2) That the creator is so loathsome for "ruining" the property that they deserve whatever abuse is thrown at them.
> 
> Don't like Last Jedi? That's totally cool with me - it certainly wasn't perfect. Hate me because I liked it? Want (or at least say you want) Rian Johnson to die in a fire? Toxic.




I don't know. Certainly, the over-reactions you describe are toxic. But, there are certain elements of fandom that don't necessarily attack other fans or creatives involved with a show, but constantly complain and spew negativity, often based on false impressions. I don't know if I'd label that behavior as toxic, but it certainly is tiresome.

If you don't care for something (ST: Picard forex) that's fine. If you share your reasoning why in fan discussions, that's fine. But when you just go on and on and on about how you dislike something at every opportunity . . . ugh, give it a rest! Go watch something you do like!


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Dire Bare said:


> It was particularly rough on our favorite teenager in space, Wesley Crusher (Wil Wheaton).




Wil got so much hate, that it's a testament to his character that he didn't wind up like that poor kid who played Anakin, or give up entirely like the poor guy that played Joffrey on Game of Thrones. Both didn't deserve the hate. (In particular Joffrey, because he did a very good job at being terrible.)

Heck, I didn't like Wesley myself at the time, and I'm quite the fan of Wheaton today. Glad I didn't ever dis him in public!


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Zardnaar said:


> Best of TNG is better, overall DS9 is better?




I think it's nearly universally thought of that way, yes. TNG's absolute best episodes probably beat DS9's, but DS9 (while still being a bit weak at the start) has a higher overall quality across all 7 seasons.


----------



## Morrus

FitzTheRuke said:


> I think it's nearly universally thought of that way, yes. TNG's absolute best episodes probably beat DS9's, but DS9 (while still being a bit weak at the start) has a higher overall quality across all 7 seasons.



I preferred TNG. the DS9 war and the religious prophecy stuff never worked for me.


----------



## GreyLord

Morrus said:


> It's the same problem that Star Wars has now. A toxic fan base which has written the future in their heads already, and when the filmmaker's vision isn't the exact same thing they imagined, accuses them of being 'lazy', 'hating Star Trek', 'not understanding the show' and all sorts of stupid stuff. It's horrible, and an anethma to any sort of creativity. Maybe all these things should just die (they won't; they perform perfectly well).




Little late on this...but

I feel that's actually a misrepresentation of many of the fans that the Disney Star Wars has disappointed.

Calling many of them toxic seems to actually have worked against them.  Referencing that to RPGs (as this is RPG board) it is a lesson that WotC learned the hard way to a degree.  At first they had 4e and kind of put down the earlier versions.  Then, when people complained some tried to paint those that were complaining as toxic and only causing problems.  

This was a failure to listen and a failure to actually listen to criticism rather than to be more humble and learn what may have gone wrong and what people were actually unhappy about.  There were a LOT of jumbled things in there, and some didn't know exactly what they wanted...only that they were unhappy about it.

WotC and Hasbro has some SMART people though.  They LEARNED and GREW.  In the next go around they completely switched directions and how they handled criticism.  Instead of simply trying to write off criticism of others, they made it a core point of the development of 5e.  They ran a LOOONG testing process where they received a LOT of input.  Instead of putting down criticism they tried to respond in constructive and respectful ways.

The result (in my opinion) is that because they were at least respectful of others comments on the design process, and took into consideration what others said, they came out with a MASSIVE amount of good will and PR.  They've continued to build upon that PR and good will.

I think at times trying to paint fans who are disappointed as toxic creates the opposite result of what one actually desires as a company.  Instead, treat them respectfully and try to answer constructively regarding what they are asking about.  

I know Disney is a Giant in some ways compared to Hasbro, but I think Disney in relation to Star Wars could learn a thing or two from Hasbro about building a brand up rather than helping the fans tear it down.

On the otherhand, take the New Doctor Who.  I think, for the most part, the writing has been brilliant.  I've enjoyed it tremendously to be honest.  I know that there are many who are unhappy with it, but that hasn't disturbed me or my enjoyment of it.  I'm okay with those who are criticizing it.  Maybe they have good points.  I do not know (though I HAVE been a Who fan for awhile, and have as many of the series from the first doctor to the present as possible on DVD and blu-ray) but when I stop and think I can see where they are disappointed in and about.

It doesn't bother me, but I think it might be a good idea for the showrunners to take into consideration why fans may be unhappy if it affects how many are watching or not.   As I said, I found the new Doctor so far absolutely terrific.  I've enjoyed the Doctor thus far. 

I would go so far as to even point out the New Doctor as a prime example of what to do when taking a series in a new direction.  I feel they've had SOLID writing.

On the otherhand, I'd say the writing for the Disney Star Wars movies has been less than stellar.  I'd even point it as a BAD example of how to write something for a new direction or even to continue in the same direction.  The fact that a white male (Rian Johnson) told off a Black woman that she was a racist misogynist in response to her criticism is actually far more horrific to me than what he is labeling toxic fans (which, ironically many of those I knew were minorities and women...who a WHITE  MALE is criticizing and calling all sorts of things).  If the writing wasn't bad enough, the WAY they've handled the criticism to me is FAR more toxic than anything else and probably has done far more damage to the Star Wars brand than anything else.

How this relates to Star Trek...I'm not sure.  I know there are people out there that dislike the new Star Trek.  I actually can agree with some of the criticisms of STD.  I don't let it bother me though.  I think they took some of those criticisms though and listened to them.  I feel this is one reason they came out with Picard.  

One criticism was that people did NOT want prequels, they wanted a sequel to STNG, DS9, Or VOY era tv series.  They wanted a continuation, to see what happened in the future.  I feel Picard is the answer to that.  They took those ideas and made a new series.  They did not want to tread the familiar ground that the other series had already covered (multiple times in fact) and so put it in a new style and format.  

I don't like the cussing (I feel it's sort of not needed and it feels off as if they put it in only to show that they could put it in rather than it feeling a natural extension of how the characters would act...but that's a minor gripe) but overall I think they've pulled off what fans have been asking for.  I think Picard will have a bigger fanbase than STD.

After writing this, I may add I don't know what the fans have griped about Picard.  I do not know the criticisms.  I haven't really followed it in that way and none of the criticisms have really come pointedly across most of the boards I have read.  Perhaps I'll see more of it as I read more of this thread, but if there is a large contingent of unhappy fans, I'd say it is more constructive to listen to what they are saying than to simply dismiss them with a handwave and call them toxic.


----------



## Morrus

GreyLord said:


> Little late on this...but
> 
> I feel that's actually a misrepresentation of many of the fans that the Disney Star Wars has disappointed.



It accurately describes the ones who attacked actors and other people in a toxic manner.

You’re making the same error that Z did up above. Toxic doesn’t mean “people who didn’t like Star Wars” it means “people who viciously attacked those involved online”. Especially Kelly Marie Tran and Kathleen Kennedy; or Leslie Jones.


----------



## GreyLord

FitzTheRuke said:


> I think nearly everyone agrees that while TNG S1 got Trek going again, it's pretty bad. 3-6 are really good, and S7 has a few stinker episodes, but is otherwise fine. (I draw the line at Beverly getting raped by her grandma's alien lover - that episode was a serious piece of trash.)




I like TNG S1.  I didn't and still don't think it's bad.  I also like Voyager too.  



Morrus said:


> I can quote every line of that film. Every note of the soundtrack is burned into my brain. It's peak Trek.




I'm not even close to being that much of a Trek fan though.  I may like the seasons above, but I can't quote any of the movies...I can only really quote one line from IV...but it's inappropriate [language] to really quote here.


----------



## Dire Bare

GreyLord said:


> Little late on this...but
> 
> I feel that's actually a misrepresentation of many of the fans that the Disney Star Wars has disappointed.
> 
> Calling many of them toxic seems to actually have worked against them.  Referencing that to RPGs (as this is RPG board) it is a lesson that WotC learned the hard way to a degree.  At first they had 4e and kind of put down the earlier versions.  Then, when people complained some tried to paint those that were complaining as toxic and only causing problems.
> 
> This was a failure to listen and a failure to actually listen to criticism rather than to be more humble and learn what may have gone wrong and what people were actually unhappy about.  There were a LOT of jumbled things in there, and some didn't know exactly what they wanted...only that they were unhappy about it.
> 
> WotC and Hasbro has some SMART people though.  They LEARNED and GREW.  In the next go around they completely switched directions and how they handled criticism.  Instead of simply trying to write off criticism of others, they made it a core point of the development of 5e.  They ran a LOOONG testing process where they received a LOT of input.  Instead of putting down criticism they tried to respond in constructive and respectful ways.
> 
> The result (in my opinion) is that because they were at least respectful of others comments on the design process, and took into consideration what others said, they came out with a MASSIVE amount of good will and PR.  They've continued to build upon that PR and good will.
> 
> I think at times trying to paint fans who are disappointed as toxic creates the opposite result of what one actually desires as a company.  Instead, treat them respectfully and try to answer constructively regarding what they are asking about.
> 
> I know Disney is a Giant in some ways compared to Hasbro, but I think Disney in relation to Star Wars could learn a thing or two from Hasbro about building a brand up rather than helping the fans tear it down.
> 
> On the otherhand, take the New Doctor Who.  I think, for the most part, the writing has been brilliant.  I've enjoyed it tremendously to be honest.  I know that there are many who are unhappy with it, but that hasn't disturbed me or my enjoyment of it.  I'm okay with those who are criticizing it.  Maybe they have good points.  I do not know (though I HAVE been a Who fan for awhile, and have as many of the series from the first doctor to the present as possible on DVD and blu-ray) but when I stop and think I can see where they are disappointed in and about.
> 
> It doesn't bother me, but I think it might be a good idea for the showrunners to take into consideration why fans may be unhappy if it affects how many are watching or not.   As I said, I found the new Doctor so far absolutely terrific.  I've enjoyed the Doctor thus far.
> 
> I would go so far as to even point out the New Doctor as a prime example of what to do when taking a series in a new direction.  I feel they've had SOLID writing.
> 
> On the otherhand, I'd say the writing for the Disney Star Wars movies has been less than stellar.  I'd even point it as a BAD example of how to write something for a new direction or even to continue in the same direction.  The fact that a white male (Rian Johnson) told off a Black woman that she was a racist misogynist in response to her criticism is actually far more horrific to me than what he is labeling toxic fans (which, ironically many of those I knew were minorities and women...who a WHITE  MALE is criticizing and calling all sorts of things).  If the writing wasn't bad enough, the WAY they've handled the criticism to me is FAR more toxic than anything else and probably has done far more damage to the Star Wars brand than anything else.
> 
> How this relates to Star Trek...I'm not sure.  I know there are people out there that dislike the new Star Trek.  I actually can agree with some of the criticisms of STD.  I don't let it bother me though.  I think they took some of those criticisms though and listened to them.  I feel this is one reason they came out with Picard.
> 
> One criticism was that people did NOT want prequels, they wanted a sequel to STNG, DS9, Or VOY era tv series.  They wanted a continuation, to see what happened in the future.  I feel Picard is the answer to that.  They took those ideas and made a new series.  They did not want to tread the familiar ground that the other series had already covered (multiple times in fact) and so put it in a new style and format.
> 
> I don't like the cussing (I feel it's sort of not needed and it feels off as if they put it in only to show that they could put it in rather than it feeling a natural extension of how the characters would act...but that's a minor gripe) but overall I think they've pulled off what fans have been asking for.  I think Picard will have a bigger fanbase than STD.
> 
> After writing this, I may add I don't know what the fans have griped about Picard.  I do not know the criticisms.  I haven't really followed it in that way and none of the criticisms have really come pointedly across most of the boards I have read.  Perhaps I'll see more of it as I read more of this thread, but if there is a large contingent of unhappy fans, I'd say it is more constructive to listen to what they are saying than to simply dismiss them with a handwave and call them toxic.




Dislike of a piece of art, say "The Rise of Skywalker" or "Star Trek: Picard" is fine. Offering your reasons, simply to share or to offer criticism, is fine . . . and you're right, can be helpful to the creatives working on various franchises. I don't think anybody in this thread is saying, "if you are vocal about your dislike and/or criticism of a show/movie, then you are a toxic fan." As Morrus, I think, has made very clear, it's the fans who cross the line from expressing their dislike/criticism to personal attacks and harassment that are toxic. And there are a lot more of these folks out there than I'm personally comfortable with, and it makes me sad. They often defend their toxicity by claiming they are just expressing their opinion, but they are doing much more than just that.


----------



## GreyLord

Morrus said:


> It accurately describes the ones who attacked actors and other people in a toxic manner.
> 
> You’re making the same error that Z did up above. Toxic doesn’t mean “people who didn’t like Star Wars” it means “people who viciously attacked those involved online”. Especially Kelly Marie Tran and Kathleen Kennedy.




In that case, there was a creator of the second Disney Star Wars movies who was the most toxic thing ever to hit Star Wars.  The things he called minorities and Woman as a white male...I have to say I've never seen anyone THAT toxic.

I've actually defended Kennedy on multiple occasions in her position, or at least the position she represents in Hollywood.

People talk about toxic cultures in relation to Star Wars, but a LOT of that was driven by this one particular Last Jedi maker's treatment towards women and minorities online.  He is a White Male.  What he called some women who were minorities doesn't even make sense (why would he a white male even be calling them racist misogynists?  It doesn't even make sense in relation to what they were saying and even less sense in relation to who they were!?).

Is that what you mean as toxic...as he personally has insulted several women I am friends with?  (I don't even understand why Disney hasn't openly disassociated itself with him...any other company that had that type of representation would have and has in the past...even WotC had it's problems with a creator and eventually disassociated with him, though it wasn't at first).

This is representative of where the problems I see lie in the mainstream Star Wars today.  Rather than listening to criticism, some of those that are representing the line have openly made blatant insults (and some of them I cannot even repeat here as there is one particular that was quite...crud in it's insult to women...just that normally would have been enough to disassociate from a creator with most companies) to people, sometimes when those insults make absolutely no sense when you actually know who the people being insulted are.

I think his reactions and doing what he did is what caused the entire blow up of the issues related to Star Wars.  If he had not done what he did, I think there would have been a LOT LESS of an issue, less confrontations, and less insanity of it all.  (Personal opinion).  I know those he insulted in an unreasonable way now find fault, no matter how small, with Star Wars.

Kelly Marie Tran is an unfortunate incident (and so was Ahmed Best and Jake Lloyd...who ironically had JJ fall into the hate crowd on them to a degree...but I find many who label others as toxic like to sweep that one under the rug???) and I would say that is not something that should have happened. 

The way Boyega was treated more recently by supposed Star Wars fans was also very sad...not so sure why you wouldn't point that out as it is more recent than Tran.  Boyega handled it pretty smoothly and respectfully.  Kudos to him. 

I wasn't even aware it had happened until after the entire event occurred...but I could see that also as what people would label as toxic.

Unfortunately, I see the term toxic tossed around a LOT these days.  It is tossed around so much these days as a way to DISMISS rather than listen that I generally find it as being a way to insult people rather than to take the time to actually listen to the criticism.

I think this started with the above creator I pointed out of The Last Jedi labeling EVERYONE (including woman and minorities) as toxic no matter how valid the criticism may have been or may be in almost any reply.  When a White male is trying to insult women and minorities in the ways he did...it's far more toxic in my opinion.

And that is why I have problems with the way we refer to fans who may be critical of something as being called toxic or toxic fanbases.

I just bought 6 copies of Rise of Skywalker today to show my support of the SW Franchise.  I find that cash will help quiet any 'toxicity' about a brand if there is enough of it.  Rather than toss away complaints by calling them toxic...support the brand in a way that counteracts things instead.

Anyways, this is a Star Trek thread so I'm off topic.  In that light, I haven't actually seen the toxic fanbase people have talked about thus far.  Maybe it's the forums I am in, or the forums I participate in, but I haven't seen any real persecution of individuals over Star Trek.  I still have much of the thread to finish though so maybe I'll read about it coming up?


----------



## Morrus

Wow?


----------



## GreyLord

Dire Bare said:


> While our awareness of toxic fandom is more acute now that we are blessed/cursed by the internet, toxic fans were bitching back in the day about all the changes Next Gen made to the canon, both visually (bumpy Klingon heads) and story. In various interviews, I've heard multiple Next Gen actors comment on the hate they got during the first season or so, and how disheartening it was. It was particularly rough on our favorite teenager in space, Wesley Crusher (Wil Wheaton).




I liked Wesley.  I know many for some reason do not, but I liked the character.  I think they created a way to have him so that he would be noticed by the Captain and crew (even if it may have been a little extreme in that manner), but did it so that they could create growth in Picard.  Wesley presented a way for Picard to grow in that he developed in his relation ship with children, a teenager, and with Wesley himself.  I enjoyed that part of TNG myself.



Hussar said:


> Heh, I remember the issues that people had when Tim Russ played Tuvok on Voyager.  A BLACK Vulcan?!!?!!?!!?!!  Vulcan's aren't black.
> 
> People get things engraved in their brains far too deeply.




I had no idea about that.  I did not know people had issues with him.  That is unfortunate.  I liked his character.


----------



## Dire Bare

GreyLord said:


> In that case, there was a creator of the second Disney Star Wars movies who was the most toxic thing ever to hit Star Wars.  The things he called minorities and Woman as a white male...I have to say I've never seen anyone THAT toxic.
> 
> I've actually defended Kennedy on multiple occasions in her position, or at least the position she represents in Hollywood.
> 
> People talk about toxic cultures in relation to Star Wars, but a LOT of that was driven by this one particular Last Jedi maker's treatment towards women and minorities online.  He is a White Male.  What he called some women who were minorities doesn't even make sense (why would he a white male even be calling them racist misogynists?  It doesn't even make sense in relation to what they were saying and even less sense in relation to who they were!?).
> 
> Is that what you mean as toxic...as he personally has insulted several women I am friends with?  (I don't even understand why Disney hasn't openly disassociated itself with him...any other company that had that type of representation would have and has in the past...even WotC had it's problems with a creator and eventually disassociated with him, though it wasn't at first).
> 
> This is representative of where the problems I see lie in the mainstream Star Wars today.  Rather than listening to criticism, some of those that are representing the line have openly made blatant insults (and some of them I cannot even repeat here as there is one particular that was quite...crud in it's insult to women...just that normally would have been enough to disassociate from a creator with most companies) to people, sometimes when those insults make absolutely no sense when you actually know who the people being insulted are.
> 
> I think his reactions and doing what he did is what caused the entire blow up of the issues related to Star Wars.  If he had not done what he did, I think there would have been a LOT LESS of an issue, less confrontations, and less insanity of it all.  (Personal opinion).  I know those he insulted in an unreasonable way now find fault, no matter how small, with Star Wars.
> 
> Kelly Marie Tran is an unfortunate incident (and so was Ahmed Best and Jake Lloyd...who ironically had JJ fall into the hate crowd on them to a degree...but I find many who label others as toxic like to sweep that one under the rug???) and I would say that is not something that should have happened.
> 
> The way Boyega was treated more recently by supposed Star Wars fans was also very sad...not so sure why you wouldn't point that out as it is more recent than Tran.  Boyega handled it pretty smoothly and respectfully.  Kudos to him.
> 
> I wasn't even aware it had happened until after the entire event occurred...but I could see that also as what people would label as toxic.
> 
> Unfortunately, I see the term toxic tossed around a LOT these days.  It is tossed around so much these days as a way to DISMISS rather than listen that I generally find it as being a way to insult people rather than to take the time to actually listen to the criticism.
> 
> I think this started with the above creator I pointed out of The Last Jedi labeling EVERYONE (including woman and minorities) as toxic no matter how valid the criticism may have been or may be in almost any reply.  When a White male is trying to insult women and minorities in the ways he did...it's far more toxic in my opinion.
> 
> And that is why I have problems with the way we refer to fans who may be critical of something as being called toxic or toxic fanbases.
> 
> I just bought 6 copies of Rise of Skywalker today to show my support of the SW Franchise.  I find that cash will help quiet any 'toxicity' about a brand if there is enough of it.  Rather than toss away complaints by calling them toxic...support the brand in a way that counteracts things instead.
> 
> Anyways, this is a Star Trek thread so I'm off topic.  In that light, I haven't actually seen the toxic fanbase people have talked about thus far.  Maybe it's the forums I am in, or the forums I participate in, but I haven't seen any real persecution of individuals over Star Trek.  I still have much of the thread to finish though so maybe I'll read about it coming up?




What?

How does talking about toxic fandom "sweep under the rug" creatives and executives who may also be toxic? Hollywood is well known for harboring a lot of toxic personalities, and the current "social media" era is exposing this sort of behavior as well. We just aren't talking about that in this thread, well, until now.


----------



## GreyLord

Morrus said:


> Wow?




I try to be positive in many instances.  My wife, My niece, my grandson (not female, but of Japanese and African-American heritage) are all considered toxic and called names (and another dismissive comment unfit to be quoted here) and have been called that by the so called gentleman who was one of the Primary creators of The Last Jedi.

So...sort of like a plug suddenly being uncorked.  People referring to my relatives as toxic but not the other side...yes...sorry...didn't sit well with me and I suppose it kind of exploded.

On Star Trek...I've read the thread now and haven't found anything really all that toxic on Star Trek Picard.  I'm not in the loop on this so really do not know what people are complaining about overall.

I thought it was pretty well liked by the majority of people who watched it from what I've read thus far.  I liked it for the most part.


----------



## Dire Bare

GreyLord said:


> And that is why I have problems with the way we refer to fans who may be critical of something as being called toxic or toxic fanbases.




Literally nobody in this thread is doing that. In fact Morrus and others have taken extra special care to make it clear that is not what anyone here is doing.

Do some folks, out there in internet land, dismiss the opinions of other fans as "toxic" where it is really not warranted? I'm sure. But that problem is small potatoes compared to the actual toxicity that exists within our favorite fandoms.


----------



## Dire Bare

GreyLord said:


> I try to be positive in many instances.  My wife, My niece, my grandson (not female, but of Japanese and African-American heritage) are all considered toxic and called names (and another dismissive comment unfit to be quoted here) and have been called that by the so called gentleman who was one of the Primary creators of The Last Jedi.
> 
> So...sort of like a plug suddenly being uncorked.  People referring to my relatives as toxic but not the other side...yes...sorry...didn't sit well with me and I suppose it kind of exploded.
> 
> On Star Trek...I've read the thread now and haven't found anything really all that toxic on Star Trek Picard.  I'm not in the loop on this so really do not know what people are complaining about overall.
> 
> I thought it was pretty well liked by the majority of people who watched it from what I've read thus far.  I liked it for the most part.




You are unaware of the fan toxicity aimed at ST: Picard, okay. It's not as bad as what's happened within the Star Wars fandom with the sequel trilogy, but it's there. Star Trek, like most fandoms, sadly has a history with elements of the fandom crossing the line from dislike/criticism to personal attacks & harassment. Certainly not every Star Trek fan who refuses to gush about new-Trek is toxic.

You claim that someone connected to "The Last Jedi" has expressed some pretty toxic opinions regarding minorities. I'm not familiar with that, but I'll take you at your word, even though you don't mention who. The director, Rian Johnson?

I'm failing to see your point.

Because a creative is on the record with toxic and awful opinions, we can't discuss toxic fandom without bringing that up to be "fair"? Both creatives and fans are members of the human race, and we all have an equal capacity for wonderfulness . . . and for awfulness. Yeah. And? Why does discussing one aspect of negative human behavior without discussing all of negative human behavior upset you?


----------



## GreyLord

Dire Bare said:


> Literally nobody in this thread is doing that. In fact Morrus and others have taken extra special care to make it clear that is not what anyone here is doing.
> 
> Do some folks, out there in internet land, dismiss the opinions of other fans as "toxic" where it is really not warranted? I'm sure. But that problem is small potatoes compared to the actual toxicity that exists within our favorite fandoms.




What IS toxicity though?

The labeling of fan criticism in that light seemed to originate as a major thing to say with a specific individual and their response to criticism to their film (The Last Jedi).  That response basically exploded a LOT of the internet statements on this.  Ironically, it was to brush aside criticism and to downplay it as anyone who said any criticism as being toxic or the toxic fanbase.

There ARE bad things that people do to others (and the aforementioned Kelly Marie Tran is a good example of such things....though we should have also mentioned the other actors in Star Wars that have also had such things happen to them, especially the minorities both from the past (best) and recent (Boyega).

A LOT of the toxic stuff these days I do not see coming from fans though.  The usage of the term is a way to brush off criticism rather than to listen and respond constructively.  I see far more of it coming from those trying to ignore the criticism and brush it aside.  It's used as an insult rather than anything else.

AS it IS an insult, it infuriates those it insults.  They may not even understand WHY they are reacting in this fashion, as it is more of a hidden insult, but instinctively they know what it is and respond in like fashion.  This causes and explosion of criticism then and many times that criticism is neither well thought out nor even plausible.  It's being said because people were made angry by being brushed off with an insult.  I think this is a problem with the term nowdays and how it is being used.

There's good criticism, and there's poor criticism.  The difference is understanding the difference and responding respectively to them in the degree needed.  Instead of calling things toxic, I think we should instead refer to better terms and understand how and why we are calling it that.

For example, as this is supposed to be discussing Picard...I see Star Trek Picard as a response to criticism over Star Trek Discovery.  I did not see a toxic response (or any toxicity in that degree) from the creators of Star Trek in this way (though as I've said, I may be out of the loop on this).  I think they took the idea of criticism and applied it to the various shows they were making.

With STD, they made season 2 more reflective of the original series and tried to incorporate more designs from the Original series (uniforms, responses, characters) into it.  I'm not sure if they were successful or not in answering those critcisms constructively, but to me it seemed at times almost like they were falling to nostalgia with some of the fallbacks.

At the same time, they created Picard as the answer for all those who wanted that followup to TNG and that era of TV series.  I think they did a good job in regards to how to do so in this era of TV.  They followed the modern way TV shows seem to be going when streaming, with a season long continuous plot that goes on for several episodes.  We also had the strong nostalgia glasses of old characters showing up...and of course even responding to older criticism (of ST:Nemesis) in seeing another way for an old friend (Data) to be seen.

Maybe I'm just too easy to please in general, but I thought it was done well enough.


----------



## Morrus

GreyLord said:


> I try to be positive in many instances.  My wife, My niece, my grandson (not female, but of Japanese and African-American heritage) are all considered toxic and called names (and another dismissive comment unfit to be quoted here) and have been called that by the so called gentleman who was one of the Primary creators of The Last Jedi.




I’m sorry to hear you have a negative personal experience with a film maker.

However, you are fundamentally misunderstanding the meaning of toxic fan culture. It refers to armies of ‘fans’ running people like Kelly Marie Tran, Leslie Jones, Kathleen Kennedy etc. off the internet with systemic sexist and racist abuse. It refers to large-scale, ongoing abusive attacks by thousands upon thousands of people directed at single individuals.

That you weren’t aware of these things happening does not mean they didn’t, and are not continuing to. 

Hopefully that clarifies what is being discussed here. “Toxic fan culture” refers to something very specific.


----------



## Zardnaar

Morrus said:


> It accurately describes the ones who attacked actors and other people in a toxic manner.
> 
> You’re making the same error that Z did up above. Toxic doesn’t mean “people who didn’t like Star Wars” it means “people who viciously attacked those involved online”. Especially Kelly Marie Tran and Kathleen Kennedy; or Leslie Jones.




 I didn't attack Kelly Marie Team, Kathleen Kennedy or Ryan Johnson online but still got lumped in with the toxic ones. If I blame anyone it's usually the writers, the director bus just doing what the studio via the producer has told them to do.

 Hell after Knives Out Ryan's better than JJ who isn't the best at doing anything original. 

 After RoS TLJ is starting to look better. 

  Back to Picard I've fallen behind on it but it's easier to watch so far than season one of TNG.  I value consistency over peaks and valleys. I like Star Gate Atlantis over SGI even if the best if SGI was better than Atlantis. I can live with the odd dud episode but things get rough when you get dud seasons.


----------



## GreyLord

Morrus said:


> I’m sorry to hear you have a negative personal experience with a film maker.
> 
> However, you are fundamentally misunderstanding the meaning of toxic fan culture. It refers to armies of ‘fans’ running people like Kelly Marie Tran, Leslie Jones, Kathleen Kennedy etc. off the internet with systemic sexist and racist abuse. It refers to large-scale, ongoing abusive attacks by thousands upon thousands of people directed at single individuals.
> 
> That you weren’t aware of these things happening does not mean they didn’t, and are not continuing to.
> 
> Hopefully that clarifies what is being discussed here. “Toxic fan culture” refers to something very specific.




I understand some of that (and have defended Kennedy against attacks in some instances).  I was unaware of Leslie Jones having it occur (but will look it up) and find that reprehensible.

I tried to explain above though that the way the term has evolved over the past two years has changed what the term is used as.  Today, beginning with how it was utilize as a weapon against woman and minorities incorrectly, it has devolved to mean something very different than what some assume it means.  Many who use it are not even women or minorities, but white males trying to write off criticism towards things they've made...and use it regardless of who they are talking too (if they are even aware of the race or gender of who they are talking to). 

It is, quite frankly, used as an insult to brush off people that one does not want to listen to these days.  This is why we see explosions of furious commentary that may or may not be well thought out after it's usage.  Just like I exploded, that is minor compared to how many others react when it is used.  It causes smaller criticism that is more acceptable into an explosion of being critical just to BE critical.  Instead of calming people, it causes them to become even MORE critical.  

As I have pointed out, I haven't been privy to this in regards to Star Trek Picard yet.  As such, perhaps I am in the dark about it.  I think the producers have avoided this type of situation with Star Trek thus far and thus it has kept a lot of the more nonsense and less useful criticisms refrained in the small corners of the internet they derive from.  On the otherhand, I think they took a LOT of the criticisms of the first season of Star Trek Discovery and taking it constructively to build up Star Trek in areas where they felt it would appeal to fans (perhaps not the most angry fans, but to many who had criticisms of STD S1, but were reasonable or more reasonable about what and why they were unhappy or what changes they would have made).


----------



## S'mon

Ryujin said:


> You're right, it's not the right expression. It's more that old theatrical practice of "putting my own stamp on it." It's both to show ownership and because critics tend to think that if a property doesn't evolve in some way, even something like a Shakespearean play, it's "tired and old."




Toxic critics are a much bigger problem than toxic fans IMO!


----------



## Morrus

GreyLord said:


> It is, quite frankly, used as an insult to brush off people that one does not want to listen to these days.




You keep changing it back to that. I give up.


----------



## S'mon

I overall enjoyed Star Trek Picard, though it didn't feel very much like Star Trek to me (heck I enjoyed 4e D&D, likewise!) 

It does seem to have attracted a lot of flak online, a lot of it unmerited - I also liked The Rise of Skywalker, and felt the same way. My impression is that once a fan base is alienated (by The Last Jedi and Star Trek: Discovery), some develop a rather perverse joy in seeking out reasons to hate stuff. Most people I know absolutely loathed Rise of Skywalker (my son called it 'Worse than The Last Jedi'!) :-O - like Picard, maybe neither is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but AFAICS both had a lot of good stuff, neither showed the contempt for their (majority) audience that would merit such vitriol.


----------



## Zardnaar

Morris definition is correct IMHO but it's been used in the way GL has described. 

 If you take over a pre existing franchise and make drastic changes your going to get backlash. 

 It like Coke vs New Coke people like the old recipe thats what they want so sell them coke. 

 You can make some minor changes but if you pull a 180 it's not to surprising things tend to fall over.


----------



## Ryujin

Zardnaar said:


> Morris definition is correct IMHO but it's been used in the way GL has described.
> 
> If you take over a pre existing franchise and make drastic changes your going to get backlash.
> 
> It like Coke vs New Coke people like the old recipe thats what they want so sell them coke.
> 
> You can make some minor changes but if you pull a 180 it's not to surprising things tend to fall over.




And when your "New Coke" tastes like "flat, generic cola", you get pretty big backlash.


----------



## Zardnaar

Ryujin said:


> And when your "New Coke" tastes like "flat, generic cola", you get pretty big backlash.




We've had two companies screw up here.

One made chocolate (Cadbury) and they changed the recipe to add in more palm oil. Had a mate who worked in the factory and he said they lost 2/3rds of their sales in a few months. Took a few more years but they closed the factory last year, the other brand struggled to keep up with demand.

There was a hot malted drink called Milo.  They changed the recipe to make it better and more healthy.  They took alot of the suger out.  Sales collapsed it tasted disgusting. And you've had 3 generations raised on the stuff. Last I heard the original recipe is back.

So yeah change can be bad.


----------



## Hussar

Dire Bare said:


> Dislike of a piece of art, say "The Rise of Skywalker" or "Star Trek: Picard" is fine. Offering your reasons, simply to share or to offer criticism, is fine . . . and you're right, can be helpful to the creatives working on various franchises. I don't think anybody in this thread is saying, "if you are vocal about your dislike and/or criticism of a show/movie, then you are a toxic fan." As Morrus, I think, has made very clear, it's the fans who cross the line from expressing their dislike/criticism to personal attacks and harassment that are toxic. And there are a lot more of these folks out there than I'm personally comfortable with, and it makes me sad. They often defend their toxicity by claiming they are just expressing their opinion, but they are doing much more than just that.




I'd add another element here.  People who dislike a product who presume when "toxic fandom" is mentioned, that it immediately applies to them.  That if we start talking about the folks who are going way over the line in their spewing of vitriol and make jokey videos about them being trolls and getting covered in poop that this applies to ANYONE who criticizes the product.  Which, of course, couldn't be further from the truth.  But, people, for some reason, seem to come to the conclusion that the reason that a segment of fandom is being called toxic is because they don't like something.  That's not why fans are being called toxic.  They are being called toxic because they do nothing but spew hate and vitriol at every single opportunity, making any sort of conversation impossible, and turn every single opportunity into a self-absorbed screed against whatever is being hated on.

And, for some truly bizarre reason, people who simply dislike a product actually seem to self-identify with these other "fans".  It absolutely boggles my mind. 



Zardnaar said:


> I didn't attack Kelly Marie Team, Kathleen Kennedy or Ryan Johnson online but still got lumped in with the toxic ones. If I blame anyone it's usually the writers, the director bus just doing what the studio via the producer has told them to do.
> 
> Hell after Knives Out Ryan's better than JJ who isn't the best at doing anything original.
> 
> After RoS TLJ is starting to look better.
> 
> Back to Picard I've fallen behind on it but it's easier to watch so far than season one of TNG.  I value consistency over peaks and valleys. I like Star Gate Atlantis over SGI even if the best if SGI was better than Atlantis. I can live with the odd dud episode but things get rough when you get dud seasons.




Thus we get Exhibit A here.  Someone who came into every single Star Wars thread for YEARS and flung poo about how he HATED all things Star Wars.  Over and over and over again.  Without end.  Without a single time stopping and listening to those who actually liked Star Wars.  @Zardnaar, that's why you got labeled as toxic.  I'm sorry, but, it's true.  You spewed vitriol in every single Star Wars thread for years.  You went beyond simply disliking the property and off into the land of proselytizing how bad it was and how everyone should agree with you that it's bad without ever making any attempt at anything remotely like a balanced view.

That's the definition of vitriolic fan.  Someone who didn't like 4e?  Cool.  Yup we should listen to them.  Someone who came on En World to fling poo in every single 4e thread, who took joy in selectively quoting dev's to "prove" how WotC hated fans? On and on.  Repeatedly for YEARS?   Naw, you don't listen to that person.  You boot that person from fandom.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> I'd add another element here.  People who dislike a product who presume when "toxic fandom" is mentioned, that it immediately applies to them.




Kind of hard not to assume that when someone directly quotes you and makes a statement about how what you've said is what a toxic fan says.


----------



## Zardnaar

Hussar said:


> I'd add another element here.  People who dislike a product who presume when "toxic fandom" is mentioned, that it immediately applies to them.  That if we start talking about the folks who are going way over the line in their spewing of vitriol and make jokey videos about them being trolls and getting covered in poop that this applies to ANYONE who criticizes the product.  Which, of course, couldn't be further from the truth.  But, people, for some reason, seem to come to the conclusion that the reason that a segment of fandom is being called toxic is because they don't like something.  That's not why fans are being called toxic.  They are being called toxic because they do nothing but spew hate and vitriol at every single opportunity, making any sort of conversation impossible, and turn every single opportunity into a self-absorbed screed against whatever is being hated on.
> 
> And, for some truly bizarre reason, people who simply dislike a product actually seem to self-identify with these other "fans".  It absolutely boggles my mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Thus we get Exhibit A here.  Someone who came into every single Star Wars thread for YEARS and flung poo about how he HATED all things Star Wars.  Over and over and over again.  Without end.  Without a single time stopping and listening to those who actually liked Star Wars.  @Zardnaar, that's why you got labeled as toxic.  I'm sorry, but, it's true.  You spewed vitriol in every single Star Wars thread for years.  You went beyond simply disliking the property and off into the land of proselytizing how bad it was and how everyone should agree with you that it's bad without ever making any attempt at anything remotely like a balanced view.
> 
> That's the definition of vitriolic fan.  Someone who didn't like 4e?  Cool.  Yup we should listen to them.  Someone who came on En World to fling poo in every single 4e thread, who took joy in selectively quoting dev's to "prove" how WotC hated fans? On and on.  Repeatedly for YEARS?   Naw, you don't listen to that person.  You boot that person from fandom.




 I admit I'm passionate about Star Wars, I never made it personal though. I thought they messed up badly.

 Mandalorian was good, new clone wars apparently is good. 

 So yeah in not happy with what they've done, and yeah I'ma gonna complain about it. It's not the fault of the actors involved or even the directors.

 I thought Jar Jar was crap along with Jakes Anakin but never took it on in either actor. That's on George he messed up. 

 Sequel Trilogy is on the powers that be in Disney and the writers.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

GreyLord said:


> People talk about toxic cultures in relation to Star Wars, but a LOT of that was driven by this one particular Last Jedi maker's treatment towards women and minorities online.  He is a White Male.  What he called some women who were minorities doesn't even make sense (why would he a white male even be calling them racist misogynists?




Presumably by mistake? I don't mean to defend whoever you're talking about (I don't even know who it is) but I would think that if someone called a woman of colour a "racist misogynist" then it seems likely that one of three things happened: 1) They were talking to someone else, or at least thought they were;. 2) They'd dealt recently with so many racist misogynists that they were trigger-happy on the subject; or 3) the person they were talking to said something that sounded racist and misogynist to them, and they called them on it.

It might be a flaw of mine, but I usually assume when something doesn't make sense (like your scenario) that a mistake has been made. Of course, if the mistake was pointed out, and the speaker doubled-down, then he was, in the very least, being overly defensive, possibly even toxic, maybe a total jerk. Again, I'm not trying to defend whoever it was (or at least, I only mean it theoretically), but when you consider how much racist misogyny that was flying around the Last Jedi, I can imagine how someone could have made the mistake of seeing it where it wasn't intended, in particular if he was dealing with multiple attackers at the same time.

(Again, I don't know your scenario, but if it was Twitter, or something like that, it would have been easy to respond to the wrong person. I don't know.)


----------



## S'mon

Ryujin said:


> Kind of hard not to assume that when someone directly quotes you and makes a statement about how what you've said is what a toxic fan says.




I've never seen anyone say:

"Most people hate _Star Trek: Discovery/Star Wars: The Last Jedi_ in a perfectly legitimate manner. When we call people Toxic Fans, we're only talking about a tiny minority of the many (ex) fans who hate that series/film." 

(Disclaimer: I have never watched ST: D)


----------



## S'mon

FitzTheRuke said:


> It might be a flaw of mine, but I usually assume when something doesn't make sense (like your scenario) that a mistake has been made.




I'm sure a mistake was made. I guess it's a mistake illustrative of the mindset of the mistake maker - that he imputes racist & sexist motivations into criticism of his product.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

S'mon said:


> I'm sure a mistake was made. I guess it's a mistake illustrative of the mindset of the mistake maker - that he imputes racist & sexist motivations into criticism of his product.




Possibly. Or perhaps there WAS a lot of racism and sexism in the comments he was receiving (I mean, we all know what happened with Kelly Marie Tran) that he started to see it everywhere, even where it wasn't intended? I know that's what happened with Ghostbusters. There was SOOO much racist/sexist negative commentary at first, that any negative commentary got lumped in with that. I'm not saying it's _right_, but it at least makes sense. 

I mean, in both cases the creators _shouldn't_ have lashed back at the toxic fandom - they hit "innocent" bystanders and they absolutely caused the problem to get worse. It could be argued (and obviously it _is_ argued) that they were just as toxic as the fans they meant to defend themselves against. They're also held to a higher standard. But they're human, and they were individual people being attacked by thousands. That's gotta be hard to take.


----------



## GreyLord

FitzTheRuke said:


> Presumably by mistake? I don't mean to defend whoever you're talking about (I don't even know who it is) but I would think that if someone called a woman of colour a "racist misogynist" then it seems likely that one of three things happened: 1) They were talking to someone else, or at least thought they were;. 2) They'd dealt recently with so many racist misogynists that they were trigger-happy on the subject; or 3) the person they were talking to said something that sounded racist and misogynist to them, and they called them on it.
> 
> It might be a flaw of mine, but I usually assume when something doesn't make sense (like your scenario) that a mistake has been made. Of course, if the mistake was pointed out, and the speaker doubled-down, then he was, in the very least, being overly defensive, possibly even toxic, maybe a total jerk. Again, I'm not trying to defend whoever it was (or at least, I only mean it theoretically), but when you consider how much racist misogyny that was flying around the Last Jedi, I can imagine how someone could have made the mistake of seeing it where it wasn't intended, in particular if he was dealing with multiple attackers at the same time.
> 
> (Again, I don't know your scenario, but if it was Twitter, or something like that, it would have been easy to respond to the wrong person. I don't know.)




It was not a mistake.  He made it obvious and blatant it was not a mistake and he completely meant it. He may not have realized at first he was talking to minorities or women (on multiple occasions), it is likely he knew later when he kept on in the same fashion.

Anyways, it's off topic, sorry I lost my cool. 

We probably should continue talking about Picard rather than Star Wars.  In relation to this I still am ignorant how this term even really applies to ST: Picard regarding the fans of Star Trek, though as I have admitted I am probably ignorant on this in relation to them.

The show itself could be relatable to it though (doing an obvious redirect to the show).  With the Synthetics and the persecution shown in the show, they in a way also withdrew.  I think the show had some items that could be seen in relation to the things happening in our world today.


----------



## DammitVictor

FitzTheRuke said:


> There was SOOO much racist/sexist negative commentary at first, that any negative commentary got lumped in with that. I'm not saying it's _right_, but it at least makes sense.




Legitimate criticisms about the quality and/or creative directrion of a franchise are a convenient smokescreen for racist and sexist bigots to use to conceal their agendas. They don't hate _women and minorities_, they just hate the "(insert buzzword) political agenda" promoting diversity at the expense of _historical accuracy_ or _realism_ or _established continuity_ or whatever.

But... you know... bigotry-fuelled smear campaigns are also frequently used as a convenient smokescreen for pretentious producers, directors, and showrunners to conceal their contempt for the original property and its fanbase and their disregard for their own mistakes.

Either way, it guarantees that legitimate criticism gets lost in the sound and the fury.


----------



## Zardnaar

FaerieGodfather said:


> Legitimate criticisms about the quality and/or creative directrion of a franchise are a convenient smokescreen for racist and sexist bigots to use to conceal their agendas. They don't hate _women and minorities_, they just hate the "(insert buzzword) political agenda" promoting diversity at the expense of _historical accuracy_ or _realism_ or _established continuity_ or whatever.
> 
> But... you know... bigotry-fuelled smear campaigns are also frequently used as a convenient smokescreen for pretentious producers, directors, and showrunners to conceal their contempt for the original property and its fanbase and their disregard for their own mistakes.
> 
> Either way, it guarantees that legitimate criticism gets lost in the sound and the fury.




I suspect the more extreme ones in both sides are going to be very disappointed.

They won't be in a position to throw away tens of millions of dollars on botched rehashed reboots, while one would think after November the prize Twitter troll will be unemployed come January.

 PSA. Don't use twitter. That is all


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Zardnaar said:


> I suspect the more extreme ones in both sides are going to be very disappointed.
> 
> They won't be in a position to throw away tens of millions of dollars on botched rehashed reboots, while one would think after November the prize Twitter troll will be unemployed.




I've always maintained that IMO, most fans would rather have more new stories set in the same setting than rehashes of old stories. For example, I'd rather have Picard, for any of it's flaws, than yet-another-actor-playing Kirk rebooted. Heck, I'd be happy with a totally new ship, with a totally new crew. I'd have been far happier with Discovery, all other things being the same, if it had been set forward in time with the Klingons being a completely new race discovered through the ship's strange mushroom jump-drive. I found it strange that it was supposed to fit into continuity.

(All that said, I LOVED Pike and crew from season two, but even then, if it was the same actors with new names, I'd have loved them just as much.)


----------



## Dire Bare

FitzTheRuke said:


> I'd have been far happier with Discovery, all other things being the same, if it had been set forward in time . . .




Good news! In ST: Discovery Season 3, the ship & crew have jumped into the far future, centuries after ST: Picard's timeline!


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Dire Bare said:


> Good news! In ST: Discovery Season 3, the ship & crew have jumped into the far future, centuries after ST: Picard's timeline!




I know! I was _thrilled_.

Edit: It also helped that much of the characters were more likeable in Season Two...


----------



## Hussar

S'mon said:


> I've never seen anyone say:
> 
> "Most people hate _Star Trek: Discovery/Star Wars: The Last Jedi_ in a perfectly legitimate manner. When we call people Toxic Fans, we're only talking about a tiny minority of the many (ex) fans who hate that series/film."
> 
> (Disclaimer: I have never watched ST: D)



Maybe not.

But, I have seen all sorts of pretty well mannered discussion on the good and the bad of a property.  IE. perfectly legitimate hate.    We just don't complain about that because, well, that's just discussion.  Not liking something is perfectly fine.  I don't like The Walking Dead.  I lost interest in it after season 3 when they spent a year in the prison and did nothing to make it defensible.  I don't like the last two seasons of Battlestar Galactica when they took it in a very different direction and picked up themes that I had no interest in.

See, here's the difference.  I DON'T go into threads talking about The Walking Dead or BSG and start slagging off how terrible the show became.  I don't spend endless time bitching about something that I don't like.  If someone asks me, I'll tell them, but, I guess I just lack the arrogance to think that other people should give a rat's petoot about my negative opinion.


----------



## Hussar

@Zardnaar - I just want to say a big thank you and kudos for not taking what I said personally.  It really wasn't meant as a shot.  Although, fair enough, it certainly wasn't flattering.  But, you took it with very good grace.  Thank you.

------

Just to elucidate the difference between discussion and toxicity for a moment.  Let's stick with Star Trek Discovery as an example.  Someone might say that they don't like the new Klingon design because they liked the old design better.  Ok, fair enough.  That's pretty much the end of the conversation.  There's not a whole lot else to discuss.  Where it becomes toxic is this:

((After EVERY SINGLE episode of STisco))

Fan 1:  Hey did you see it?  It was pretty cool how character A did that thing with the thing to that other thing.
Fan 2:  Yeah, I dunno, seemed kinda lame.  I wish they wouldn't use that other thing so much.
Fan 3:  NEW STAR TREK KLINGONS SUCK!
Fan 1:  ....
Fan 2:  ....
Fan 3:  They only made the new Klingons for changes sake.  Totally unnecessary.  It's such crap.
Fan 1:  Uhh, there wasn't even a Klingon in that last episode.
Fan 3: NEW KLINGONS SUCK!!
...

That's how you go from discussion to being toxic.  When someone is unremittingly negative and attempts to turn every single conversation into another cesspool of bile so they can endlessly bitch and whine about whatever thing in fandom they happen not to like, THAT'S toxic.

And unfortunately, when some perfectly unsuspecting person happens to trot out the exact same talking points as the troll, well, they get painted green too.  Which, I suspect, happens more often than not.


----------



## Zardnaar

Hussar said:


> @Zardnaar - I just want to say a big thank you and kudos for not taking what I said personally.  It really wasn't meant as a shot.  Although, fair enough, it certainly wasn't flattering.  But, you took it with very good grace.  Thank you.
> 
> ------
> 
> Just to elucidate the difference between discussion and toxicity for a moment.  Let's stick with Star Trek Discovery as an example.  Someone might say that they don't like the new Klingon design because they liked the old design better.  Ok, fair enough.  That's pretty much the end of the conversation.  There's not a whole lot else to discuss.  Where it becomes toxic is this:
> 
> ((After EVERY SINGLE episode of STisco))
> 
> Fan 1:  Hey did you see it?  It was pretty cool how character A did that thing with the thing to that other thing.
> Fan 2:  Yeah, I dunno, seemed kinda lame.  I wish they wouldn't use that other thing so much.
> Fan 3:  NEW STAR TREK KLINGONS SUCK!
> Fan 1:  ....
> Fan 2:  ....
> Fan 3:  They only made the new Klingons for changes sake.  Totally unnecessary.  It's such crap.
> Fan 1:  Uhh, there wasn't even a Klingon in that last episode.
> Fan 3: NEW KLINGONS SUCK!!
> ...
> 
> That's how you go from discussion to being toxic.  When someone is unremittingly negative and attempts to turn every single conversation into another cesspool of bile so they can endlessly bitch and whine about whatever thing in fandom they happen not to like, THAT'S toxic.
> 
> And unfortunately, when some perfectly unsuspecting person happens to trot out the exact same talking points as the troll, well, they get painted green too.  Which, I suspect, happens more often than not.




 I don't take anything personally online. My skins so thick I've got +1 AC.


----------



## Sadras

FitzTheRuke said:


> I know! I was _thrilled_.
> 
> Edit: It also helped that much of the characters were more likeable in Season Two...




Speaking about characters (IMO)
1. They gave the protagonist less screen time and it wasn't always about her angst.
2. They also did not ruin Christopher Pike the same way they ruined Gabriel Lorca.
3. There was more to build on thanks to the previous season.


----------



## Sadras

Morrus said:


> “Toxic fan culture” refers to something very specific.




What I'm afraid is happening, is that many real concerns of many fans for various genres do not seem to matter to a few Hollywood types. Only the bottom line matters for obvious reasons. So from a fan perspective the big corporate pushes on in willful ignorance fueling this toxic fan culture.

From my perspective those HW types live in a bubble without any concern of the fandom. The clearest example of this are the two Ferengians who made GoT. Personally, I would happily see those two individuals burn online given their absolute apathy towards the fans and any criticism of their show.


----------



## Hussar

I'm sorry, I didn't follow GoT at all (yeah, yeah, turn in my geek cred card at the door  ) but, from what I understood, GoT was insanely popular.  What was the issue?


----------



## Zardnaar

Hussar said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't follow GoT at all (yeah, yeah, turn in my geek cred card at the door  ) but, from what I understood, GoT was insanely popular.  What was the issue?




The ending/last two seasons.

It started going downhill season 5 but the last two seasons were rushed espicially the last one.

 The pacing was off, rushed, probably unsatisfied ending.


----------



## Morrus

Sadras said:


> What I'm afraid is happening, is that many real concerns of many fans for various genres do not seem to matter to a few Hollywood types.



Again, that is not what 'toxic fan culture' means.  I've explained it, like three times now. It has nothing to do with that.


----------



## Sadras

Hussar said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't follow GoT at all (yeah, yeah, turn in my geek cred card at the door  ) but, from what I understood, GoT was insanely popular.  What was the issue?




Don't worry if we have to turn our geek card in at the door I would be first with SW. I watched Rogue One, it wasn't what I wanted from SW and I knew Disney would not be able to deliver/cater for my likes so I didn't watch anything after that. Heard about all the blowback from both sides. What a hot mess.
From what I heard and could be mistaken, it seemed like the person in charge went in without a plan for the 3 movies.

Anyways back to GoT. It was not just that the last few seasons were bad (and they were bad) - it was the absolute ABSOLUTE apathy and sheer SHEER arrogance of the two show runners i.e. what they were saying in interviews as well as interviews they purposefuly dropped out from. SW fans can be grateful these two were cut from any SW projects. Those two deserve everything they got and keep getting online. That is the way I feel.

With regards to Picard. I was disappointed. The story they wanted to tell was not bad and they did try to plug an interesting hole I had never thought of before about the absence of andriods/synths not existing within the ST universe. The inter-connectivity (forced relationship) with everyone involved with the synths was a little over the top but what you gonna do. HW seems to be filled with a plethora of average writers of late...so many shows I have stopped watching because of that. It forces one to try out European movies and series instead which is the silver lining.

So last year I watched the Ghostbuster movie on Netflix in a casual relaxed unassuming environment (which I think plays a huge role in one's opinion on a movie). I liked the cameos and I actually didn't mind it - but I can see how fans of the originals may take issue with it.
Now funny enough, my reaction to The Hustle, a Dirty Rotten Scoundrels remake, was much much stronger. The Hustle for me failed in almost EVERY regard and I like Anne Hathaway - but seriously how could they try to match the two ladies to Steve Martin and Michael Caine which latter two were already giants by the time they made that movie.

It is different for everyone and the circumstances one watches the movie in plays a major role.
For instance, I watched Iron Man II as part of a massive marathon so that I could watch Avengers & Endgame and I actually was much less critical of it the second time round. I actually surprised myself in this regard.


----------



## GreyLord

On the Picard note, is there going to be a second season?  Has it been greenlit to go forward?


----------



## Ryujin

GreyLord said:


> On the Picard note, is there going to be a second season?  Has it been greenlit to go forward?




Yup, already green-lit.


----------



## Hussar

Yeah, @Sadras, I can totally understand that.  I watched Solo and thought the same thing as you thought with Ghostbusters.  It was a fun movie and I enjoyed it and so did my girls.  Which makes all the storm und drang over it just seem so strange.  I'm so far removed from fandom that most of the hype, positive and negative, totally passes me by.


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> This as I kid I didn't get Khan, probably because I didn't know who Khan was.



Pretty much nobody knew who Khan was. He appeared in one episode of the original series, and at the time the movie came out, pretty much the only cheap and accessible way to catch up on old episodes was to hope they happened to be re-run on TV.


----------



## S'mon

Re Picard's alluding to current events (Romulans = manipulative Russians or hapless Syrian refugees, Federation = Trump's America) - well they did that in TOS too, often with less subtlety! In itself I don't see that as a bad thing at all, it depends on how well it's handled. Maybe I have a low bar for SF following The Last Jedi, but I thought Picard did a pretty good job. I liked how they rooted so much in the lore, so that even the suddenly multi racial Romulans could claim ancestry in Voyager's Tuvok as well as in the wildly varying past depictions.


----------



## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> Pretty much nobody knew who Khan was. He appeared in one episode of the original series, and at the time the movie came out, pretty much the only cheap and accessible way to catch up on old episodes was to hope they happened to be re-run on TV.




Kids didn't know. People my age knew


----------



## Umbran

Sadras said:


> What I'm afraid is happening, is that many real concerns of many fans for various genres do not seem to matter to a few Hollywood types. Only the bottom line matters for obvious reasons.




So... this form of argument often contains some implicit gatekeeping.  You may not intend it, but, I want to unpack it.

Posit: Anyone who goes, "Oh, cool, there's a new {insert franchise here} movie coming out.  I'm going to see it," is a fan of that franchise.  This means that there is pretty much zero difference from serving the bottom line, and serving fans.

There are some fans who disagree with my posit.  They think (perhaps implicitly) that the bulk of folks going to the movies aren't _real_ fans.  They feel their _real_ fandom entitles them to greater consideration of their concerns. 

That sense of _entitlement_ is part of the toxicity, and it can go climb a rope.

So, you kind of have to have evidence that the "many fans" were actually a huge number, that would have made a significant dent in the box office gross (or ratings, or subscription rates for TV and streaming services).  We are usually talking about movies that made a billion dollars at the box office - it becomes hard to argue that a majority of those people had big issues.


----------



## Zardnaar

Umbran said:


> So... this form of argument often contains some implicit gatekeeping.  You may not intend it, but, I want to unpack it.
> 
> Posit: Anyone who goes, "Oh, cool, there's a new {insert franchise here} movie coming out.  I'm going to see it," is a fan of that franchise.  This means that there is pretty much zero difference from serving the bottom line, and serving fans.
> 
> There are some fans who disagree with my posit.  They think (perhaps implicitly) that the bulk of folks going to the movies aren't _real_ fans.  They feel their _real_ fandom entitles them to greater consideration of their concerns.
> 
> That sense of _entitlement_ is part of the toxicity, and it can go climb a rope.
> 
> So, you kind of have to have evidence that the "many fans" were actually a huge number, that would have made a significant dent in the box office gross (or ratings, or subscription rates for TV and streaming services).  We are usually talking about movies that made a billion dollars at the box office - it becomes hard to argue that a majority of those people had big issues.




Outside of Disney there were a lot of bombs in 2019 for various franchises eg Men in Black, Charlie's Angels, Terminator.

 Star Treks also done on the big screen for the forseeable future (pre Covid).


----------



## Umbran

Zardnaar said:


> Outside of Disney there were a lot of bombs in 2019 for various franchises eg Men in Black, Charlie's Angels, Terminator.




There's a lot of movies (and TV shows) that bomb, period.  Being part of a franchise doesn't change that.



> Star Treks also done on the big screen for the forseeable future (pre Covid).




This is the best example of my point - despite having very little change in casting, half or more of all Star Trek movies... aren't great.

Interestingly, I've yet to see a Star Trek on TV that I didn't find good enough to please me.  Some of them have some weaknesses, they all occasionally have clunker episodes, but they have all been worth my time, overall.


----------



## Sadras

Umbran said:


> So... this form of argument often contains some implicit gatekeeping.  You may not intend it, but, I want to unpack it.




Perhaps there is.



> Posit: Anyone who goes, "Oh, cool, there's a new {insert franchise here} movie coming out.  I'm going to see it," is a fan of that franchise.  This means that there is pretty much zero difference from serving the bottom line, and serving fans.
> 
> There are some fans who disagree with my posit.  They think (perhaps implicitly) that the bulk of folks going to the movies aren't _real_ fans.  They feel their _real_ fandom entitles them to greater consideration of their concerns.
> 
> That sense of _entitlement_ is part of the toxicity, and it can go climb a rope.




If I am understanding you correctly and I readily admit I'm unsure if I completely am...
For me there is a marked difference between watching a movie and watching 8 seasons of a series. One watching a movie might not necessarily be a fan. One watching 8 seasons of a series is fair enough to be called a fan.

As for the greater consideration - my "toxicity" is not derived from how much I dislike the show - but the comments made thereafter by the two showrunners as well as the dodgeball they played at conventions letting the poor actors, a handful of which made indirect _disapproving comments_ about the script or the way their characters behaved, who were left alone to deal with a frustrated audience/fanbase/whatever.

That was absolute cowardice. So I'm happy to have them _go climb a rope._



> So, you kind of have to have evidence that the "many fans" were actually a huge number, that would have made a significant dent in the box office gross (or ratings, or subscription rates for TV and streaming services).  We are usually talking about movies that made a billion dollars at the box office - it becomes hard to argue that a majority of those people had big issues.




In my post I'm referring to a series not a movie. And I fail to see why I have to justify the use of the words _many fans _that would equate to significant dent in economic profits. _Many fans_ is I suppose in the eye of the beholder. When a petition gets raised to complain about a series ending and receives 1.5 million signatures - to me that is _many fans_. You may disagree - that is fine.


----------



## Zardnaar

Umbran said:


> There's a lot of movies (and TV shows) that bomb, period.  Being part of a franchise doesn't change that.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the best example of my point - despite having very little change in casting, half or more of all Star Trek movies... aren't great.
> 
> Interestingly, I've yet to see a Star Trek on TV that I didn't find good enough to please me.  Some of them have some weaknesses, they all occasionally have clunker episodes, but they have all been worth my time, overall.




I think Trek is better for longer series based storytelling.  The movies are very hit and miss.

I liked IV and First Contact a lot. Movies might work better with a TV show cast.

The Star Trek movies need to be lower budget, under 100 million more focus on the story, less explosions IMHO.


----------



## Dire Bare

The line between liking a thing and being a fan (short for fanatic) of that thing is fuzzy, and trying to pin it down easily leads to gatekeeping.

But there is a difference. 

I liked and enjoyed the movie "Shrek". I've even seen it more than once. But I wouldn't consider myself a fan. I'm indifferent to seeing it again.

I'm definitely a Star Trek fan! I've seen all the episodes and movies multiple times each and looking forward to rewatching (most) of them again and again.

But, I'm not a Trekkie or superfan. I've only read some of the novels, don't own any of the tech manuals, only have a few collectables. I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the franchise.

Are these differences real? Yes. Are they important? Perhaps situationally, but any superfan who wants to gatekeep me can take a long walk off a short pier.


----------



## Hussar

Zardnaar said:


> I think Trek is better for longer series based storytelling.  The movies are very hit and miss.
> 
> I liked IV and First Contact a lot. Movies might work better with a TV show cast.
> 
> The Star Trek movies need to be lower budget, under 100 million more focus on the story, less explosions IMHO.




Heh.  "longer based storytelling?"  That's newer Trek like Discovery or Picard.  You might make the argument for ST:Enterprise as well.  Older Trek?  Totally episodic.  Even the DS9 stories were mostly episodic with a couple of longer stories being sprinkled into the mix after the Dominion gets involved.

And, really, the movies have always been more miss than hit, as far as money making goes.  None of them, other than the first movie, made any significant money.  They might not have bombed, but, they also weren't lighting up the charts either.  It's not like any of them would be considered blockbusters.  They are kind of like Bond movies that way - solid, middle of the road money makers.


----------



## Zardnaar

Hussar said:


> Heh.  "longer based storytelling?"  That's newer Trek like Discovery or Picard.  You might make the argument for ST:Enterprise as well.  Older Trek?  Totally episodic.  Even the DS9 stories were mostly episodic with a couple of longer stories being sprinkled into the mix after the Dominion gets involved.
> 
> And, really, the movies have always been more miss than hit, as far as money making goes.  None of them, other than the first movie, made any significant money.  They might not have bombed, but, they also weren't lighting up the charts either.  It's not like any of them would be considered blockbusters.  They are kind of like Bond movies that way - solid, middle of the road money makers.




 Yeah they might drop the ball but episodic is the way to do Trek IMHO.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Dire Bare said:


> I'm definitely a Star Trek fan!




Me too! I didn't watch all of Voyager originally, but eventually I worked my way through it. I'm working on Season Four of Enterprise now, finally. It's not great, but it's watchable. I've seen all the movies. I've watched Next Gen and DS9 multiple times. I own them on DVD. I used to watch TOS as a kid in syndication.

But I've never been to a Star Trek Convention. I don't own any merch (I don't care about merchandising for anything at all, and I'm a comic-book guy, so I admit that I'm unusual that way - it's just all unnecessary junk to me. I absolutely make no judgement against people who like it. Heck, I sell the stuff at work.)

So I suppose some people would consider me not a "true fan", but whatever. Gatekeeping is silly.


----------



## cbwjm

I actually thought enterprise was one of the better series, I think I loved it because it was at the birth of star fleet and their tech, while still advanced, was still in development compared to other series so they couldn't just rely on it to solve everything.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Janx said:


> Oh, another thing. Who the frak has multiple targeting programs for destroying a stationary settlement on a planet, let alone FIVE of them. Her correct line should have been "Destroy the target."




I couldn’t help remembering that when the Romulans were first introduced in TOS, they specifically had a weapon which annihilated planet side installations (and which the enterprise could only resist by running away from it as fast as possible). 

In any RPG scenario where the Romulans were being played by PCs, dusting the planet would have taken place 5 seconds after arrival. It wasn’t especially clear why in the huge fleet wouldn’t do just that.


----------



## DammitVictor

S'mon said:


> Re Picard's alluding to current events (Romulans = manipulative Russians or hapless Syrian refugees, Federation = Trump's America) - well they did that in TOS too, often with less subtlety! In itself I don't see that as a bad thing at all, it depends on how well it's handled.




The real key to _Star Trek_'s moral politics is that the Romulans don't stand in for any real-life peoples or political factions, and the Federation doesn't stand for any real-life peoples or factions. We're not the Federation, and our enemies-- or our "enemies"-- are not the Romulans. They stand for the principles and philosophies that have-- in combination-- driven all of the real-world interactions between real-world organizations.

_Star Trek_ doesn't talk about people much. Everything it has to say about _real life_ people, it says by asking us to examine for ourselves the reasons we make the decisions we make-- and how we might make better decisions in the future, if we made it a habit.


----------



## Morrus

FaerieGodfather said:


> the Federation doesn't stand for any real-life peoples or factions. We're not the Federation



I don’t think that’s true. Starfleet, at least, is specifically American in design. And there were lots of cold war allegories in TOS.


----------



## Hussar

Yeah, I gotta say, ST has always been pretty strongly allegorical.  And, very much a product of its time.  90's Fernengi, 80's Glasnost and the Klingons, so on and so forth.  Then again, all good SF is allegorical.


----------



## Hussar

Plane Sailing said:


> I couldn’t help remembering that when the Romulans were first introduced in TOS, they specifically had a weapon which annihilated planet side installations (and which the enterprise could only resist by running away from it as fast as possible).
> 
> In any RPG scenario where the Romulans were being played by PCs, dusting the planet would have taken place 5 seconds after arrival. It wasn’t especially clear why in the huge fleet wouldn’t do just that.




This is one of the reasons I tend to shy away from SF RPG's.  Players are far, FAR more pragmatic than any SF writer could ever be.  I mean, seriously, what self respecting PC would go on an away mission in what is, for all intents and purposes, a track suit?  No armor?  No night vision goggles?  So on and so forth.  Given ST level technology, an away team could carry a truly frightening level of offensive and defensive capabilities.

Heck, look at the original discussions in this thread about evacuating the Romulan home world.  The Romulans fielded 2 HUNDRED star ships.  According to Memory Alpha, the older style Romulan Warbirds could carry a crew of 1500 plus officers, crew and troops.  So, figure 3-5000/warbird if we're cramming people in there for an evacuation.  That means they could ferry a million people with this one fleet.  I'm going to assume that this fleet wasn't the entire Romulan fleet, only the Zat Vash (or however it's spelled).  Why did the Romulans need any help evacuating their homeworld if they could field this kind of fleet on their own?  And, never minding that, why are Romulans living in squalor if they have the capabilities of fielding this size of a fleet?  If you have the production capabilities to build a fleet of this size (and remember, this isn't the only Romulan fleet out there), you can certainly rebuild your planets to have paved streets and actual houses.

For Reference:  D'deridex class


----------



## Dire Bare

FitzTheRuke said:


> Me too! I didn't watch all of Voyager originally, but eventually I worked my way through it. I'm working on Season Four of Enterprise now, finally. It's not great, but it's watchable. I've seen all the movies. I've watched Next Gen and DS9 multiple times. I own them on DVD. I used to watch TOS as a kid in syndication.
> 
> But I've never been to a Star Trek Convention. I don't own any merch (I don't care about merchandising for anything at all, and I'm a comic-book guy, so I admit that I'm unusual that way - it's just all unnecessary junk to me. I absolutely make no judgement against people who like it. Heck, I sell the stuff at work.)
> 
> So I suppose some people would consider me not a "true fan", but whatever. Gatekeeping is silly.




Hah! I'm doing the same thing, doing a rewatch of Next Gen inspired by ST: Picard! And I just finished Season 4! There are some really good episodes in each season (even Season 1), but I find even the mediocre episodes comforting, like a warm bowl of mac-n-cheese!


----------



## Dire Bare

Hussar said:


> This is one of the reasons I tend to shy away from SF RPG's.  Players are far, FAR more pragmatic than any SF writer could ever be.  I mean, seriously, what self respecting PC would go on an away mission in what is, for all intents and purposes, a track suit?  No armor?  No night vision goggles?  So on and so forth.  Given ST level technology, an away team could carry a truly frightening level of offensive and defensive capabilities.
> 
> Heck, look at the original discussions in this thread about evacuating the Romulan home world.  The Romulans fielded 2 HUNDRED star ships.  According to Memory Alpha, the older style Romulan Warbirds could carry a crew of 1500 plus officers, crew and troops.  So, figure 3-5000/warbird if we're cramming people in there for an evacuation.  That means they could ferry a million people with this one fleet.  I'm going to assume that this fleet wasn't the entire Romulan fleet, only the Zat Vash (or however it's spelled).  Why did the Romulans need any help evacuating their homeworld if they could field this kind of fleet on their own?  And, never minding that, why are Romulans living in squalor if they have the capabilities of fielding this size of a fleet?  If you have the production capabilities to build a fleet of this size (and remember, this isn't the only Romulan fleet out there), you can certainly rebuild your planets to have paved streets and actual houses.
> 
> For Reference:  D'deridex class




Instead of running an "official" Star Trek RPG campaign (or any other franchise) . . . . I prefer the alternate universe approach where not only can I change events and characters as I see fit, but "fix" the silly things in the franchise. In my future alternate Star Trek campaign, the PCs will be an away team without any bridge officers, and they will be appropriately geared for the hazards they might face! I know that might not make superfans happy, but it's the only sane approach, IMO!


----------



## Kaodi

When Picard was told off by his Starfleet contact in that one episode I was definitely thinking, "That was for Wesley."


----------



## cbwjm

Dire Bare said:


> Instead of running an "official" Star Trek RPG campaign (or any other franchise) . . . . I prefer the alternate universe approach where not only can I change events and characters as I see fit, but "fix" the silly things in the franchise. In my future alternate Star Trek campaign, the PCs will be an away team without any bridge officers, and they will be appropriately geared for the hazards they might face! I know that might not make superfans happy, but it's the only sane approach, IMO!



Yeah, two of the things that always seemed a little off to me is that it was always the officers beaming down  which makes sense from a show standpoint, they are the stars of the show so they get more screen time, but surely they'd have teams of lower ranks assembled to investigate planets. I'd also think that beaming down to an unknown planet wearing standard starfleet uniforms instead of some sort of hazmat suit would be a bad idea.


----------



## Hussar

Kaodi said:


> When Picard was told off by his Starfleet contact in that one episode I was definitely thinking, "That was for Wesley."




That was, without a doubt, one of the funniest moments in Star Trek.  I damn near piddled myself.

Bit of salty language, but, watch the Youtube clip and read the credits.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Dire Bare said:


> Hah! I'm doing the same thing, doing a rewatch of Next Gen inspired by ST: Picard! And I just finished Season 4! There are some really good episodes in each season (even Season 1), but I find even the mediocre episodes comforting, like a warm bowl of mac-n-cheese!




My wife and I did a Picard-related "Highlights" TNG rewatch - we watched all the episodes that had anything to do with Data, Lore, Soong, the Borg, Hugh, Romulans, etc. (Plus a few extras because we felt like it!) It really is like a hug from an old friend.



Hussar said:


> If you have the production capabilities to build a fleet of this size (and remember, this isn't the only Romulan fleet out there), you can certainly rebuild your planets to have paved streets and actual houses.




Yet another reason why that stand-off scene in Picard would have actually worked better with like 3-7 ships per side. Picard's multi-La Sirena hologram trick would have worked better too if the smaller craft had actually vastly OUTNUMBERED the Romulans in the ruse. The scene as they made it was exciting, I suppose, but it doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. It just seems like they got greedy with "MOAR SHIPS! RAWR!"



cbwjm said:


> Yeah, two of the things that always seemed a little off to me is that it was always the officers beaming down  which makes sense from a show standpoint, they are the stars of the show so they get more screen time, but surely they'd have teams of lower ranks assembled to investigate planets. I'd also think that beaming down to an unknown planet wearing standard starfleet uniforms instead of some sort of hazmat suit would be a bad idea.




It's a silly thing that probably comes from the budget constraints of TOS, and then after that was just "tradition". It makes very little sense You'd think they'd have specialists, even. Star Trek uses something like a meritocracy for advancement, and it's just plain how things work that a mission-specialist would be better for an away mission than a member of a bridge staff. But I think it's a place were we just have to suspend our disbelief for the sake of the established premise.


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> Yeah, I gotta say, ST has always been pretty strongly allegorical.  And, very much a product of its time.  90's Fernengi, 80's Glasnost and the Klingons, so on and so forth.  Then again, all good SF is allegorical.



Yeah, and sometimes the allegory gets really unsubtle. One of the reasons I dislike Star Trek VI, despite it being a well-regarded movie, is that the script feels like it's roughly 60% out-of-context Cold War political quotes, 30% out-of-context Shakespeare quotes, and only about 10% actual Star Trek.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hussar said:


> This is one of the reasons I tend to shy away from SF RPG's.  Players are far, FAR more pragmatic than any SF writer could ever be.  I mean, seriously, what self respecting PC would go on an away mission in what is, for all intents and purposes, a track suit?  No armor?  No night vision goggles?  So on and so forth.  Given ST level technology, an away team could carry a truly frightening level of offensive and defensive capabilities.



True. The standard gear of Star Trek officers is sometimes fantastic, but kinda uneven. Tricorders that can scan everything at any range the plot desires, phasers that can stun, kill, disintegrate and turn stones into heaters... But no personal force shields or anything. But the Jem'Hadar have genetically inbuilt cloak and seem to be bad at exploiting this most of the time!



> Heck, look at the original discussions in this thread about evacuating the Romulan home world.  The Romulans fielded 2 HUNDRED star ships.  According to Memory Alpha, the older style Romulan Warbirds could carry a crew of 1500 plus officers, crew and troops.  So, figure 3-5000/warbird if we're cramming people in there for an evacuation.  That means they could ferry a million people with this one fleet.  I'm going to assume that this fleet wasn't the entire Romulan fleet, only the Zat Vash (or however it's spelled).  Why did the Romulans need any help evacuating their homeworld if they could field this kind of fleet on their own?  And, never minding that, why are Romulans living in squalor if they have the capabilities of fielding this size of a fleet?  If you have the production capabilities to build a fleet of this size (and remember, this isn't the only Romulan fleet out there), you can certainly rebuild your planets to have paved streets and actual houses.
> 
> For Reference:  D'deridex class



I wouldn't be certain that this wasn't basically the Romulan Fleet. Or at least a significant portion of it. The Zhat Vash are supposed to be a secret organization, even within the Tal'Shiar they were more a rumour than a known fact, according to the two Tal'Shiar representatives at Picard's vineyard. My guess is that the Zhat Vash, as part of the Tal'Shiar, simply tells the Romulan Empire / Free State / Republic that there is a huge threat for them, and they send what they have available. They might know that it's because of Synths building some kind of doomsday device or beacon to call a doomsday device, but they might not know the Zhat Vash has been fighting such threats for the entire time. They aren't "property" of the Zhat Vash or anything - it's just that the job of an intelligence service is to inform the government of threats, and when they name an urgent one, the military will be send out to meet it.

But of course, this is also 14 years after the Romulan Supernova. So the ship we see now might not represent what they had back then. 2375, the Dominion War ends, the most costly war in the recent history of the Alpha (and Beta) Quadrant. 2379, we have the events of Nemesis that throws the Romulan Empire in disarray as its political leadership is murdered by Shinzon, who also dies. The Supernova is 2387, 12 years after the Dominion War and 9 years after a chaotic political situation. It's quite possible that the Star Empire wasn't really in a good shape for quite a while.

The other thing to consider about the Romulans is - they have the presumably best cloaking tech in the quadrant. Yet, they constantly tip-toe around the Klingons and the Federation and constantly try to manipulate events. Even when the Klingons are still hostile to the Federation, they carefully probe their options. In at least two alternate timelines (_Yesterday's Enterprise _and the _All Good Things _Future), the Romulans get eventually steamrolled by the Klingons (in case of Y_esterday's Enterprise _even though they started the war by attacking the Klingon colony, so they clearly overestimated their own abilities...).
Chances are, their forces cannot compete with either of the two. They do not have a numerical advantage, they could launch strikes that hit hard, but they can't hold any territory against their enemy numbers. They are strong enough that anyone attacking them must be willing to sacrifice a lot, but not strong enough to win against a determined foe.

Anyway, one of the logistical challenges of ane evacuation is that you don't just need ships. You need a place for people to live. That means shelter, food, water, sewage, education, medical supplies. And I suspect that a Warbird is not equipped to deliver or produce that in significant amounts.
Cloaks are great for subterfuge and stealth attacks, but not so great if you need raw numbers.


----------



## atanakar

Enjoyed Picard immensely despite a few minor misgivings. 

Hoping the next season of Discovery will be of the same level. No more time travel / alternate reality stories please.


----------



## Dire Bare

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> True. The standard gear of Star Trek officers is sometimes fantastic, but kinda uneven. Tricorders that can scan everything at any range the plot desires, phasers that can stun, kill, disintegrate and turn stones into heaters... But no personal force shields or anything. But the Jem'Hadar have genetically inbuilt cloak and seem to be bad at exploiting this most of the time!
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be certain that this wasn't basically the Romulan Fleet. Or at least a significant portion of it. The Zhat Vash are supposed to be a secret organization, even within the Tal'Shiar they were more a rumour than a known fact, according to the two Tal'Shiar representatives at Picard's vineyard. My guess is that the Zhat Vash, as part of the Tal'Shiar, simply tells the Romulan Empire / Free State / Republic that there is a huge threat for them, and they send what they have available. They might know that it's because of Synths building some kind of doomsday device or beacon to call a doomsday device, but they might not know the Zhat Vash has been fighting such threats for the entire time. They aren't "property" of the Zhat Vash or anything - it's just that the job of an intelligence service is to inform the government of threats, and when they name an urgent one, the military will be send out to meet it.
> 
> But of course, this is also 14 years after the Romulan Supernova. So the ship we see now might not represent what they had back then. 2375, the Dominion War ends, the most costly war in the recent history of the Alpha (and Beta) Quadrant. 2379, we have the events of Nemesis that throws the Romulan Empire in disarray as its political leadership is murdered by Shinzon, who also dies. The Supernova is 2387, 12 years after the Dominion War and 9 years after a chaotic political situation. It's quite possible that the Star Empire wasn't really in a good shape for quite a while.
> 
> The other thing to consider about the Romulans is - they have the presumably best cloaking tech in the quadrant. Yet, they constantly tip-toe around the Klingons and the Federation and constantly try to manipulate events. Even when the Klingons are still hostile to the Federation, they carefully probe their options. In at least two alternate timelines (_Yesterday's Enterprise _and the _All Good Things _Future), the Romulans get eventually steamrolled by the Klingons (in case of Y_esterday's Enterprise _even though they started the war by attacking the Klingon colony, so they clearly overestimated their own abilities...).
> Chances are, their forces cannot compete with either of the two. They do not have a numerical advantage, they could launch strikes that hit hard, but they can't hold any territory against their enemy numbers. They are strong enough that anyone attacking them must be willing to sacrifice a lot, but not strong enough to win against a determined foe.
> 
> Anyway, one of the logistical challenges of ane evacuation is that you don't just need ships. You need a place for people to live. That means shelter, food, water, sewage, education, medical supplies. And I suspect that a Warbird is not equipped to deliver or produce that in significant amounts.
> Cloaks are great for subterfuge and stealth attacks, but not so great if you need raw numbers.




You got it right there. Commodore Oh (the Romulan/Vulcan sleeper agent in Starfleet) was in charge of the fleet, and she is Zhat Vash. But the fleet wasn't. The Tal Shiar get to boss everybody around whenever they want!

You also make a good point that it's been 14 years since the supernova, and the Romulan Free State has had time to rebuild. Also, putting resources into a ginormous fleet of warbirds versus taking care of refugees eeking out an existence planetside . . . it isn't unrealistic per se, but rather it shows the Romulan governments priorities.


----------



## Dire Bare

atanakar said:


> Enjoyed Picard immensely despite a few minor misgivings.
> 
> Hoping the next season of Discovery will be of the same level. No more time travel / alternate reality stories please.




Hah! What's a season of Star Trek without some time travel or alternate realities?!?! Other than ST: Picard, has there ever been a Star Trek show that's avoided these kind of plots?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Dire Bare said:


> You also make a good point that it's been 14 years since the supernova, and the Romulan Free State has had time to rebuild. Also, putting resources into a ginormous fleet of warbirds versus taking care of refugees eeking out an existence planetside . . . it isn't unrealistic per se, but rather it shows the Romulan governments priorities.




Sounds pretty consistent with how Romulans have always been portrayed, actually. 

As an aside, I find it a little strange that she gave up her cover as a Starfleet Commodore. Did I miss the bit where they proved her a double-agent?


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> Sounds pretty consistent with how Romulans have always been portrayed, actually.
> 
> As an aside, I find it a little strange that she gave up her cover as a Starfleet Commodore. Did I miss the bit where they proved her a double-agent?



That was out of the bag pretty much as soon as Agnes got over her murdery phase. Also, it seems like she was already on Raffle's conspiracy radar.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

MarkB said:


> That was out of the bag pretty much as soon as Agnes got over her murdery phase. Also, it seems like she was already on Raffle's conspiracy radar.




No, I don't mean when the crew of La Sirena figured it out. I mean, when were they able to prove it to anyone that held rank in Starfleet? Why did Commodore Oh not just take command of a fleet of Starfleet vessels under some pretense?


----------



## Ryujin

FitzTheRuke said:


> No, I don't mean when the crew of La Sirena figured it out. I mean, when were they able to prove it to anyone that held rank in Starfleet? Why did Commodore Oh not just take command of a fleet of Starfleet vessels under some pretense?




Senior Romulans have always seemed to be rather pragmatic, right back to their introduction in TOS (it was a junior officer who pushed the captain to screw up in that episode). If you think that your cover is about to be blown better to get out, than to be caught and interrogated.


----------



## Hussar

Also, the whole point of her position in Star Fleet was to deal with the Synth threat.  She probably thought that her job was done and she could go home once the Synths were killed.  Makes sense.  You're a deep sleeper agent, but, also head of the group that is supposed to deal with this threat.  Once the job is done, you get to go to your well deserved reward.

It's not like her position in Star Fleet was a Romulan plot.  Or, well, Romulan government plot anyway.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

I think once Picard had a witness like Jurati on his side, a Synth, and a dead Maddox, it would put Commodore Oh under too much scrutiny. If it's not Commodore Oh and security people under her direct supervision investigate the attacks on Dajh, they might find stuff that is suspcisious. And if they start reopening the investigation on what went wrong with the Synths, there might be more to find.
Maybe no one could prove anything that she would actually get convicted, but she also can't act as freely as she could when no one suspected her.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

That all makes sense. J like the idea that Starfleet would trust Picard enough at his word to at least investigate, and it makes sense that a Romulan would get out before any investigation revealed anything.


----------



## Dire Bare

Stumbled across a good review of ST: Picard Season 1:









						Regrets, I’ve Had a Few — Star Trek: Picard First Season Overview
					

In my review of the first-season finale of Picard, I used the famous Anton Chekhov metaphor about how if you hang a gun on the wall early in the story, it should be fired late in the story. While I…




					www.tor.com


----------



## wingsandsword

FitzTheRuke said:


> That all makes sense. J like the idea that Starfleet would trust Picard enough at his word to at least investigate, and it makes sense that a Romulan would get out before any investigation revealed anything.



Also, apparently the Federation media loves to talk to Picard, and he's apparently pretty famous. . .when his ultimatum to Starfleet is to investigate this thoroughly, or he'll tell all to the media. . .and they know he would, and to hell with the consequences.

At this point, with all the things they would have learned that a Starfleet Commodore was a deep-cover Romulan operative, that there's a whole planet of synths, that apparently said Commodore ordered the outright murder of some Synth ambassadors just to conceal this fact, that Maddox was murdered, and such, that Picard having an explanation for it all that makes sense would really help to tie this up.

I was left with the impression that, to the Federation public at large, Picard is seen as something of a hero and celebrity, if Picard says that the Synth rebellion on Mars was the result of Romulan sabotage, then that's good enough for most of the Federation ESPECIALLY if they can get any actual hard evidence to substantiate that. 

Starfleet Command may resent him for standing by principles when they were taking a much more realpolitik approach to the Romulan Supernova, or that he is outspoken on that point even a decade and a half later. . .but one thing he's never done is to lie or misrepresent, and they know that (it's rather a key part of his character), and they know that.


----------



## wingsandsword

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> True. The standard gear of Star Trek officers is sometimes fantastic, but kinda uneven. Tricorders that can scan everything at any range the plot desires, phasers that can stun, kill, disintegrate and turn stones into heaters... But no personal force shields or anything. But the Jem'Hadar have genetically inbuilt cloak and seem to be bad at exploiting this most of the time!




. . .and apparently building at least a low-power short term personal shield is NOT difficult, since Worf was able to do so in A Fistful of Datas by salvaging his comnbadge for parts and using some crude 19th century technology (a telegraph set, plus anything else he could salvage in a recreation of an "Ancient West" town).

If a lone Security Officer could build a personal shield generator out of a single comnbadge and some 19th century electrical parts, imagine what Starfleet R&D could do if they were being serious about it

Also, the 1970's animated series (which seems to be treated as canon now, especially with the nod towards Kzinti in Picard) had personal force-field belts as standard landing party equipment at least late in Kirk's 5 year mission, so there's at least some canonical evidence of personal shield generators as standard gear. . .which somehow aren't standard gear anymore decades later.


----------



## Ryujin

wingsandsword said:


> Also, the 1970's animated series (which seems to be treated as canon now, especially with the nod towards Kzinti in Picard) had personal force-field belts as standard landing party equipment at least late in Kirk's 5 year mission, so there's at least some canonical evidence of personal shield generators as standard gear. . .which somehow aren't standard gear anymore decades later.




They weren't defensive shields but rather life support belts,  but your point is well taken.


----------



## bloodtide

cbwjm said:


> Yeah, two of the things that always seemed a little off to me is that it was always the officers beaming down  which makes sense from a show standpoint, they are the stars of the show so they get more screen time, but surely they'd have teams of lower ranks assembled to investigate planets. I'd also think that beaming down to an unknown planet wearing standard starfleet uniforms instead of some sort of hazmat suit would be a bad idea.




This has always been one of the big draws for Star Trek: It shows a better ideal life.

In the real boring modern world once a person gets to a high position of authority and power, they also get far, far, far removed from any actual work.  At best they ''supervise", often from a distance.  

BUT this was not always the case.  Before, oh, say 1900 or so the people in charge DID go out and do the work.  Ship captains did not just sit around on the ship...they when ashore even if it was very dangerious.  General George Washington did NOT lead the army from some mansion where he just tolPresident Abraham Lhiskey Rebels IN Person.  President Abraham Lincoln lead some troops into battle and was even targeted by snipers (the only sitting American president to come under enemy fire while in office).  Richard the Lionheart lead his troops in person during the crusades.  And so on.

Star Trek recaptures this lost bit of history: ''important" people are not the ones that sit behind and tell others what to do: they are the ones that lead others, in person.


----------



## Ryujin

"Lead from the front." - Audie Murphy.


----------



## Zardnaar

Binge watched 5 in a row, finished episode 8.

 Wasn't to bad kinda enjoying it. Wife's a bit more lost as she doesn't recognize the TNG actors.

 Better than Altered Carbon season 2 struggling with that one.


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## Hussar

Altered Carbon is a bit funny for me.  I binged the first season when it first came out and didn't really like it.  It was okay, but, I dunno, something was missing.  Then, I re-watched it before season 2 came out and I liked it a LOT better.  I think I got kinda lost in the first season - couldn't keep track of what was going on.  Enjoyed it MUCH more on the re-watch.  I have a sneaking suspicion that season 2 will be similar.  I liked it, it was fine, but, not exactly edge of the seat.  

The anime was fun too.


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## Zardnaar

Hussar said:


> Altered Carbon is a bit funny for me.  I binged the first season when it first came out and didn't really like it.  It was okay, but, I dunno, something was missing.  Then, I re-watched it before season 2 came out and I liked it a LOT better.  I think I got kinda lost in the first season - couldn't keep track of what was going on.  Enjoyed it MUCH more on the re-watch.  I have a sneaking suspicion that season 2 will be similar.  I liked it, it was fine, but, not exactly edge of the seat.
> 
> The anime was fun too.




Some shows you need to put the phone down. Running low on new stuff to watch. Stargate Atlantis rewatch for the 5th or 6th time.


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## Hussar

I just discovered Stellaris. Now there's a way to lose a lot of hours.


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## Zardnaar

Hussar said:


> I just discovered Stellaris. Now there's a way to lose a lot of hours.




 Heh yup. There's a lot of kids to Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, Dune etc in that game. 

 I've got Crusader Kings II, Imperator and EUIV as well. So much time....


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## Dire Bare

Hussar said:


> I just discovered Stellaris. Now there's a way to lose a lot of hours.




Stellaris is worse than Civilization! It doesn't even have turns!

"I'll just explore a few more systems" . . . _disappears for days_ . . .


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## Zardnaar

Dire Bare said:


> Stellaris is worse than Civilization! It doesn't even have turns!
> 
> "I'll just explore a few more systems" . . . _disappears for days_ . . .




 Try Europa Universalis IV. Got that game on release. 4000 hours later.


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## Zardnaar

Just finished binge watched 7 episodes over two nights.

 I liked it, wife's comment was "I enjoyed that". 

 Might be able to talk her into TNG, just have to get through those first 2 seasons.


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## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> Might be able to talk her into TNG, just have to get through those first 2 seasons.



Of all the Star Trek series, I tend to find that TNG is the one that is most 'of its time'. I can re-watch some individual stand-out episodes, and the characters are great, but I can't watch it in any quantity without it feeling painfully dated in tone.


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## Ixal

Another TNG character will return for season 2


Spoiler


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## Umbran

*BLINK!*
Well.  That's going to be interesting.


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## Vael

Huh. That monologue in the trailer is intriguing.


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