# Birth control in D&D



## Hunter99 (Jul 4, 2011)

Given that magic can be used to achieve a variety of effects in D&D, has anyone given thought to a spell to prevent pregnancy or perhaps to safely abort a fetus?

What level would you all put this spell?

1st level? or 2nd level?

I'm sure many a witch would work to develop this kind of spell and seek to have it in their arsenal.


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## Dandu (Jul 4, 2011)

Ok... no. Just... no.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 4, 2011)

The abortion issue aside, if you do a bit of historical research, you'll find all kinds of alchemical and physical devices used to prevent pregnancy going back to the Egyptians.  I recall one involved the insertion of crocodile dung...and I'm not going any further.

The usual suppliers of said methods WERE the wise women/witches/herbalists and so forth.

So I wouldn't necessarily make it a spell at all, but rather an alchemical product that requires knowledge of herbalism.

The next step would be an actual magical Potion.


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## Akaiku (Jul 4, 2011)

If you don't mind brain-hurtingly bad, the BoEF has stuff like that.


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## Theo R Cwithin (Jul 4, 2011)

[edit: Ninja'd.  You'll live with that forever, Akaiku  ]

OK, I'll say it:  Book of Erotic Fantasy.

Detecting pregnancy, VD, etc is typically listed at 0th level.
Contraception is generally 1st level.
Ensuring pregnacy is 3rd or 4th level.
Causing impotency 4th or 5th level.

and so on.


No info on the armor bonus of lambskin, however, afaict.


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## domino (Jul 4, 2011)

Remove Curse.


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## Jimlock (Jul 4, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I recall one involved the insertion of crocodile dung...and I'm not going any further.





ok... I read it... no big deal................. *vomit*



Dannyalcatraz said:


> So I wouldn't necessarily make it a spell at all, but rather an alchemical product that requires knowledge of herbalism.
> 
> The next step would be an actual magical Potion.




The potion would still require a spell to be based on... just saying.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 5, 2011)

Jimlock said:


> ok... I read it... no big deal................. *vomit*




That is probably EXACTLY how it worked.




> The potion would still require a spell to be based on... just saying.




Sure, but it doesn't have to be directly on point.  It could be based on positive spells like the various cures.  It could be Remove Curse as pointed out.  It could be a Neutralize or Protection From spell.

My point was that I wouldn't make a spell that directly prevents pregnancy directly.

(Yes, I know all or almost all 3.X are based directly on spells.)


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 5, 2011)

IIRC, you can use Bestow Curse to make someone infertile.  And since that's a powerful combat spell with a LOT of options to use it for, a spell specifically for the infertility effect would be at least dropped one level, I think.  Since Bestow Curse is first, "Spay/Neuter" would at most be a 2nd level spell, then.  Possibly first level.


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## Jimlock (Jul 5, 2011)

I'd say 2nd level for a permanent effect, and 1st level for an abortion-type spell.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 5, 2011)

Jimlock said:


> I'd say 2nd level for a permanent effect, and 1st level for an abortion-type spell.




I thought there already was a 1st level abortion spell?  It's called mount, and gives you at least two whole hours to ride without a saddle.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 5, 2011)

That sounds more like a temporary "Spay/Neuter" effect...


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## Hunter99 (Jul 5, 2011)

While birth control might not have to be a spell but could be an issue of herbalism, for (safe) abortions it might be necessary to have a magic spell.

I'd probably make abortion a first level spell (so that there is relatively easy access to it) and birth control a 0th level spell if I was going the magic route.


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## frankthedm (Jul 5, 2011)

Problem with using magic to kill the fetus is that the unborn child is inside the mother. Spells need to Target, and very few harmful spells get around the _see or touch_ aspect of targeting. Otherwise I'd say _Death Knell_ is a decent starting point for a spell designed to kill an all around helpless target.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 5, 2011)

> Spells need to Target, and very few harmful spells get around the see or touch aspect of targeting.




Soooo...you're saying it might be..._difficult_...to establish LoS on the target?

All the more reason to make it based in some kind of item.  A potion, a Girdle, a Scarab...a Rod.

Oh yeah...FWIW, Wish should probably work.


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## Hunter99 (Jul 5, 2011)

I have found a name for the spell: Expunge Parasite.


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## RUMBLETiGER (Jul 5, 2011)

eeeeehhh.... Yeah, I think there is a reason D&D never addressed this issue.  However, I must agree, the wording of Bestow Curse does lend itself towards accomplishing this.


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## Tequila Sunrise (Jul 5, 2011)

I seem to remember reading a Dragonlance novel in which Kitiara gets pregnant, and then has some mage permanently infertilize her. No specifics of course, but it just goes to show there's a precedent for magic accomplishing anything in D&D.

So yeah, I'd go with Bestow Curse. Or Remove Curse. It's one of those tomayto, tomahto situations.


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## anest1s (Jul 5, 2011)

RUMBLETiGER said:


> eeeeehhh.... Yeah, I think there is a reason D&D never addressed this issue.  However, I must agree, the wording of Bestow Curse does lend itself towards accomplishing this.





Forgotten realms campaign setting equipment herbs *hint* *hint*


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## xigbar (Jul 5, 2011)

A grappling hook might work nicely. Also, I would just like to point out that this kind of thread has had problems before. Not that I care.


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## Umbran (Jul 5, 2011)

*We expect EN World users to comport themselves like mature adults, and to address topics like this one with care, thoughtfulness, good taste, and a regard for the board rules.  Please remember that before you click on the Submit button.*


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## xigbar (Jul 5, 2011)

I apologize if it's not my place to say so, but it would be helpful it the moderators would specify who they were moderating.


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## Umbran (Jul 5, 2011)

Generally, if you have a question on moderation, please take it to e-mail or Private Message with a moderator.

This warning was to all who are participating or reading the thread.  We expect everyone to treat such subjects with maturity and consideration.

If there's any further need for clarification, take it out of the thread, please.


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## xigbar (Jul 5, 2011)

Anyway.....what was this thread about again?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 5, 2011)

xigbar said:


> Anyway.....what was this thread about again?




Yellow 5.


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## xigbar (Jul 5, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Yellow 5.


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## xigbar (Jul 5, 2011)

Anyway, to answer the OP, it sounds like something that would be from the Healer base class to me. Some lower level ability of sorts, just general control over fertility, and such.


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## Greenfield (Jul 5, 2011)

"Abortive agents" were well known enough that Hippocratese included a warning against their use in the original Hippocratic Oath.  So yeah, they've been around for quite a while.

Physically, I've read more than a few literary references to "find an old woman with a crooked stick", which is more than gruesome enough an image. We will explore that direction no more.

Alchemically/herbally, an infusion made from the herb Pennyroyal was an effective abortive agent, though it made the woman very ill for a while.

A lavage of extremely salty water applied to the, erm, "internals" was known to work as well.  Another direction we will not delve into again, I expect.

Many version of  propylactics were used throughout the ages.  Sheaths made of fish or eel skin, lambskin etc were used with various degrees of effectiveness.  

The military used to believe that adding saltpeter to the soldier's food would curb their "appetites" in that direction.  It interfered with the mechanical function to some degree, but did not in fact do anything to reduce desires.

Over all, the best birth control in game is to have the characters keep their pants on.  Been known to work pretty well in the real world too.


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## Hunter99 (Jul 5, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Over all, the best birth control in game is to have the characters keep their pants on. Been known to work pretty well in the real world too.




Abstinence kind of defeats the purpose of birth control which is to allow you to have and enjoy sex without the negative consequences.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 5, 2011)

Hunter99 said:


> Abstinence kind of defeats the purpose of birth control which is to allow you to have and enjoy sex without the negative consequences.




Do you consider yourself a "negative consequence"? 

Better term might be natural consequence.


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## Hunter99 (Jul 5, 2011)

An _unwanted_ pregnancy is a negative consequence.


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## xigbar (Jul 5, 2011)

Bagpuss said:


> Do you consider yourself a "negative consequence"?
> 
> Better term might be natural consequence.




I could make an arguement for that.


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## anest1s (Jul 5, 2011)

Bagpuss said:


> Do you consider yourself a "negative consequence"?
> 
> Better term might be natural consequence.




It depends on the point of view. A lawful good char should either have to stop adventuring, oh he should have to feel bad about letting a kid orphan. So if the player doesn't want to let his character go, then it is a negative consequence, having to roll an other char or changing alignment, or changing the way he views his character. 

Just a reminder; in real life too, ppl use condoms. So maybe there are more than one ppl who consider that ''natural consequence'' a ''negative'' one.


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## Greenfield (Jul 5, 2011)

I run a PC who is a girl chaser.  Half-Satyr with a 22 Charisma, and points specifically in seduction.

We play it light.  We have him make a roll to see if he remembers the name of the girl in his bed.  She often turns out to be someone he should have left along (most recently the daughter of the Captain of the Guard.)  

The "unwanted consequence" he faces is, as some would say it, "A matter of wife or death!" (i.e. a medieval version of the old shotgun wedding.)  As far as he's concerned, jumping out of windows to avoid a husband/father is for amateurs.  He frequently has to flee the city.

It's a plot device, a bit of game color, and we leave all the fiddly bits to occur behind the scenes.  And I think that's the way it should be.  Let's admit it, we can role-play porn if we like, but there's sure to be better written stuff out there for free on the internet.

The only time we've actually had him roll that Perform: Seduction skill check, I actively wanted him to fail.  Against most people, a +21 is pretty much unstoppable at our levels, but this wasn't "most" people and I was really _really_ hoping to roll a 1.  I didn't, and now my character is out of play for at least 3 days of game time, and probably more like a week.

That, my friends, is an undesirable consequence.  As for the rest of it?  Was she hot?  Was she not?  Did you get some?  Did you get away?  Did you get away with it?  

It's a game.  It's make believe.  No harm, no foul, no matter what.

Fantasize all you want, but like I said, there's better porn out there if you really need that sort of thing.  But porn, in my experience, is best enjoyed in private, not at the game table.

But it says something odd about us and our culture that we can openly discuss fantastic ways to slaughter armies, to hack and slash our way through people by the score, but to describe a "successful" date has people hopping around like they were barefoot on a sidewalk in August.


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## Andras (Jul 5, 2011)

Hunter99 said:


> I have found a name for the spell: Expunge Parasite.




You mean Remove Disease?


> Remove Disease
> Conjuration (Healing)
> Level:	Clr 3, Drd 3, Rgr 3
> Components:	V, S
> ...




By the letter, it'll end a pregnancy.


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## xigbar (Jul 5, 2011)

Andras said:


> You mean Remove Disease?
> 
> 
> By the letter, it'll end a pregnancy.




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JehjqlzXwIQ]YouTube - ‪Alien - Extended Chestburster‬‏[/ame] ?


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## Greenfield (Jul 5, 2011)

Only if you consider pregnancy to be a parasitic infection or disease.

Last time I looked, it wasn't.  

On the other hand, wouldn't it be nice if it could do something about my brother the bum?  He's always hitting me up for money...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 5, 2011)

Hmm...what would happen if you knew it was a devil child and cast Protection From Evil?


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## Greenfield (Jul 5, 2011)

Then, for a few minutes, you'd have +2 against it's kicks.  Presuming that alignment is determined before birth, that is.

Should we pray to the almighty Mod' to end the suffering of this thread?  Or does that violate the "no religion" rule?


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## xigbar (Jul 5, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Then, for a few minutes, you'd have +2 against it's kicks. Presuming that alignment is determined before birth, that is.
> 
> Should we pray to the almighty Mod' to end the suffering of this thread? Or does that violate the "no religion" rule?




What's wrong with this thread? If someone wants to be unintentionally hilarious by making a fool out of themselves, I'm all in favor for it.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 6, 2011)

1)  The level of magic needed is small compared to most of the magic out there.  Thus I would make a birth control spell of limited duration (say 1hr/level, suitable for one encounter) be a level 0.  I would make a long duration version (say 1day/level, or for women a flat one cycle) at level 1.  I would put a permanent (but reversible) one at level 2.

1a)  Note the fairly low cost of a permanent item based on the level 1 version of the spell.  I believe such items would be common in society--they're quite expensive for a commoner but they would be passed down through the generations.

2)  Chemical means of early abortion are common in history.  Ru-486 is nothing new, just a scientific version of what's been known in practice for ages.  Note that the easy means of doing this only works for 7 weeks.

3)  As for a spell that actually performs an abortion--I believe there would be two versions of this.  At probably level 1 I see a spell that acts like Ru-486--makes the woman's body think it's not pregnant (although I wouldn't limit it to 7 weeks.)  The result is a miscarriage.

3a)  If she wants something more pleasant I would put it at probably level 3--a spell that empties the contents of the uterus.  Again, no line-of-sight issues as it's targeted on her, not the fetus.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 6, 2011)

Bagpuss said:


> Do you consider yourself a "negative consequence"?
> 
> Better term might be natural consequence.




*Unwanted* pregnancy is a negative consequence.  I was planned, I'm not a negative consequence.


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## PureGoldx58 (Jul 6, 2011)

Why does this keep happening? Book of Erotic Fantasy, read it, don't like it? Adapt it.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 6, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Only if you consider pregnancy to be a parasitic infection or disease.
> 
> Last time I looked, it wasn't.
> 
> On the other hand, wouldn't it be nice if it could do something about my brother the bum?  He's always hitting me up for money...




The only possible out on it's being a parasite is that it's of the same species as the host.  Otherwise it most certainly is a parasite.  It may be a desired parasite but that doesn't make it not a parasite.  It only takes, it returns nothing to the host.


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## PureGoldx58 (Jul 6, 2011)

Loren Pechtel said:


> The only possible out on it's being a parasite is that it's of the same species as the host.  Otherwise it most certainly is a parasite.  It may be a desired parasite but that doesn't make it not a parasite.  It only takes, it returns nothing to the host.




Nothing in the sense of nutrients but later on it can totally help with bills, keeping you out of a nursing home, finding you the right man/woman after a nasty divorce.


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## jonesy (Jul 6, 2011)

Loren Pechtel said:


> *Unwanted* pregnancy is a negative consequence.  I was planned, I'm not a negative consequence.



Whether someone is planned or not doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether someone is wanted or not. And neither of those is necessarily connected to whether it's a positive or negative consequence. Three separate issues.


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## anest1s (Jul 6, 2011)

This thread isn't about if babies are parasites, a curse, wanted or unwanted, if it is right or wrong to prevent pregnancy or if abortion is,  if they pay you back later or not, or anything like that. It will probably be locked if it keeps on to that direction probably.

Well I wouldn't care, but I just had one of those bright ideas...(or not so bright ones)

What about a spell, that would turn the unborn baby into a zombie/skeleton before it got born? I mean without killing it (or the mother) first. It sounds something awful enough to shake the PCs, and a truly evil spell worthy of a truly evil necromancer (animate dead isn't evil enough, me thinks)


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 6, 2011)

anest1s said:


> This thread isn't about if babies are parasites, a curse, wanted or unwanted, if it is right or wrong to prevent pregnancy or if abortion is,  if they pay you back later or not, or anything like that. It will probably be locked if it keeps on to that direction probably.
> 
> Well I wouldn't care, but I just had one of those bright ideas...(or not so bright ones)
> 
> What about a spell, that would turn the unborn baby into a zombie/skeleton before it got born? I mean without killing it (or the mother) first. It sounds something awful enough to shake the PCs, and a truly evil spell worthy of a truly evil necromancer (animate dead isn't evil enough, me thinks)




On a related note of ideas for evil, I just had an idea.  Inspired by the awesome Tumor Familiar in Pathfinder, anyone remember the Mother Cyst feat from Libris Mortis to give someone cancer?  What if you could mature that into some sort of horrific living offspring? 

Too far off-topic?


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## Andras (Jul 6, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> On a related note of ideas for evil, I just had an idea.  Inspired by the awesome Tumor Familiar in Pathfinder, anyone remember the Mother Cyst feat from Libris Mortis to give someone cancer?  What if you could mature that into some sort of horrific living offspring?
> 
> Too far off-topic?




You have, by chance, come very close to the main plot of Patlabor III:WXIII


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## Elf Witch (Jul 8, 2011)

There is a simple way to handle this without going nuts. In our games we handle it by having available special teas made of herbs that prevent pregnancy.

If you wanted to you could also have herbs that cause miscarriages.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 8, 2011)

Elf Witch said:


> There is a simple way to handle this without going nuts. In our games we handle it by having available special teas made of herbs that prevent pregnancy.
> 
> If you wanted to you could also have herbs that cause miscarriages.




Your post reminded me of something I read a long time ago: • The Birth Control of Yesteryear • Damn Interesting


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## Elf Witch (Jul 8, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Your post reminded me of something I read a long time ago: • The Birth Control of Yesteryear • Damn Interesting




That was an interesting article. Since a lot of our modern medicines originated from studying plants with medicinal purposes I have always liked to add that kind of flavor to a game instead of making things magical.


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## javgoro (Jul 8, 2011)

As another poster mentioned, there's the Nara root for females and (I can't remember the male version's name) for males in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for 3rd. edition. They cause temporary infertility, though it won't stop a pregnancy already in progress. For that, resort to the BoEF.


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## xigbar (Jul 8, 2011)

I still say Grappling Hooks are a fine idea.


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## RUMBLETiGER (Jul 9, 2011)

I know we're about 4 pages in, but has anyone considered absinance?  Great preventer of pregnancy, 100% effective!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2011)

OTOH, absinthe probably has led to a few babies.  (It does make the heart grow fonder...)


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 9, 2011)

RUMBLETiGER said:


> I know we're about 4 pages in, but has anyone considered absinance?  Great preventer of pregnancy, 100% effective!




Someone did mention it a few pages ago.  And as others replied, the point of birth control is because not having sex simply isn't an acceptable lifestyle choice for those concerned.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2011)

Yeah- this is probably interrelated with the 2 "Knight" (term used loosly) threads.


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## RUMBLETiGER (Jul 9, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Someone did mention it a few pages ago. And as others replied, the point of birth control is because not having sex simply isn't an acceptable lifestyle choice for those concerned.



Thanks.  I tend to get fuzzy reading Hunter99 threads recently, I must have missed it.


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## xigbar (Jul 9, 2011)

Wait! I've got it. Use the jaws of life.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2011)

Bigby's Clammy Hands


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## xigbar (Jul 9, 2011)

Mordenkainen's Sphere of Displacement.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 9, 2011)

Since we're back to crude solutions...  Thought of it a few pages ago but thought not to post it... Would tossing an acid splash "down the hole" be enough to terminate a developing offspring?  At the very least, it has no chance of killing the host/mother.


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## xigbar (Jul 9, 2011)

Disintigrate.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 9, 2011)

xigbar said:


> Disintigrate.




You'd need to actually target it, and I'm pretty damn sure it has full cover.  Acid Splash is low damage so if you fired in blindly and missed, it'd just be extremely painful.  You misfire on that disintegrate...


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## frankthedm (Jul 9, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Since we're back to crude solutions...



A sharp dagger / scalpel followed by a Cure wounds spell sounds far less agonizing / scarring. Indeed lots of chirurgical procedures become far more survivable with just a little cure magic to stop the bleeding.







StreamOfTheSky said:


> You misfire on that disintegrate...



Maybe Enervation?


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## xigbar (Jul 9, 2011)

A really close range scuplted fireball, compacted really small.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2011)

Take measurements of your "part" when at full staff
Multiply each dimension by 16
Have a master craftsman knit a capped cylinder out of the best wool with as finely and tight a weave as possible.
Cast Shrink Item & Permanency on it.

There: the rewashable "Penis Cozy."  When shrunk, it should be a comfy, custom fitted wooly barrier to the majority of little swimmers.

Available in flat woven or cabled, and in a variety of patterns, like stripes, plaid, argyle, houndstooth, snowflakes and moose w/pine trees & mountains.

Bonus: when not shrunk, can double as a sock!


(No Photoshops, please!)


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## xigbar (Jul 9, 2011)

Just use the preexisting tea cozies and a rubber band to tighten it to your needs.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2011)

I don't think D&D has rubber bands.

Leather, cloth or cord belts, OTOH...


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## xigbar (Jul 10, 2011)

So, you're in to Bondage, Dannyalcatraz?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 10, 2011)

Nope.

But I do have an appreciation for textiles.

And I also was a Scout, so I know a little something about attaching things securely to each other.


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## Ettin (Jul 11, 2011)

Dimension Door, specify that the baby isn't a target.

Since this is probably for your "Knights of the Scarlet Woman" I don't think any spell which requires a target _willing _to let the caster touch them is going to work unless they cast it themselves, though.


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## RedTonic (Jul 11, 2011)

Back a little more on topic, I seem to remember that back in ye olde middle ages, women were considered mainly "vessels" and the offspring was actually the man's creation. To that end, a temporary infertility spell cast on a man might be more appropriate if the setting is very patriarchal. Even an infertility herb that just lasts a day or so in the system would be useful.

If all offspring, however, are considered granted by the spirits/gods/whatever, completely independent of intercourse, a more setting appropriate spell might be praying for an intercession. (Obviously, unless you're changing a pretty basic assumption about reproduction in the game, sex is still the normal source of babby; I'm just talking about the spiritual, religious, and superstitious aspects.)

Herbal teas, tonics, and tinctures still used all over the world against menstrual cramps and associated disorders are typically effective abortifacients. There's an interesting section here: Abortifacient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia regarding herbs used in this application.


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