# Captain America: Civil War



## Homicidal_Squirrel (Nov 25, 2015)

[video=youtube;uVdV-lxRPFo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVdV-lxRPFo[/video]


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## calronmoonflower (Nov 25, 2015)

OH an overly powerful government agency skirting basic civil right with summery executions.
Wonder if they handed the keys over to HYDRA for what, the fourth time?


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## delericho (Nov 25, 2015)

calronmoonflower said:


> OH an overly powerful government agency skirting basic civil right with summery executions.
> Wonder if they handed the keys over to HYDRA for what, the fourth time?




I hope not. It's far more interesting if it really is the good guys doing it.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 25, 2015)

Spotted Black Panther. 

The last fight scene gave me a nerdgasm. 

Seems better than Avengers 2: Radical Robot Rampage.


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## Morrus (Nov 25, 2015)

As long as the third act doesn't involve them banding together to fight an overwhelming threat from the sky, I'm in!


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## Tonguez (Nov 25, 2015)

delericho said:


> I hope not. It's far more interesting if it really is the good guys doing it.




so is the passing of the Registration Act due to Bucky? I like that, it gives a good rationale for Cap going rogue vis-a-vis Tony.

The good guys fighting each other is gonna make it hard to get a satisfying ending without really rocking the Marvelverse though. How exactly do you end this without killing off major characters or having them make peace to face a common enemy 

Also Black Panther fights Bucky!! is he on Ironmans side or neutral? 

looking forward to it.


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 25, 2015)

I hated civil war in the comics, but this looks like it is making it better. Next year will have 2 major comic book movies and a few minor ones, so it should be good.

Civil War, and Dawn of Justice make it a year to be remembered.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Nov 25, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Spotted Black Panther.



Looks better than I expected.



> The last fight scene gave me a nerdgasm.









> Seems better than Avengers 2: Radical Robot Rampage.



Klirshon is going to be upset you said that.


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## Ryujin (Nov 26, 2015)

"Civil War" was long past my comic reading days, so I'm looking forward to this. It will be something that I haven't seen before, so far fewer preconceptions can get in the way of enjoying it.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 26, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> "Civil War" was long past my comic reading days, so I'm looking forward to this. It will be something that I haven't seen before, so far fewer preconceptions can get in the way of enjoying it.




As if that was the thing that made people enjoy films.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 26, 2015)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Looks better than I expected.
> 
> View attachment 72095
> 
> ...




Let the dolphin go. It isn't your toy, speciesist squirrel.


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## Ryujin (Nov 26, 2015)

goldomark said:


> As if that was the thing that made people enjoy films.




As if everyone was the same 

I find that it helps increase the chances of my _not_ not enjoying the film, though it's not necessarily a deal breaker. I loved the "Lord of the Rings" movies despite having read the books more times than I can count (almost certainly more than 30) and having some rather deep mental images of how things should look, and play out. I despised "The Hobbit" movies and had to force myself to finally sit through the third, not long ago. I knew the story of the creation of The Vision from my comic reading as a youth, but still enjoyed "The Avengers: Age of Ultron." I'd say to date I'm something like 3:1 against.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Nov 26, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Let the dolphin go. It isn't your toy, speciesist squirrel.



You aint the boss of me.


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## calronmoonflower (Nov 26, 2015)

delericho said:


> I hope not. It's far more interesting if it really is the good guys doing it.



It would be nice if they went by the original concept of no clear right side, with both sides trying to do the right thing.

As for causes, Ultron, and the popping up of inhumans around the glob in unprecedented numbers gives a clear motivation. And the ball is already rolling in Agents of SHIELD. As it is the same universe, it would be odd if they didn't connect.


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## megamania (Nov 26, 2015)

The original reason for the "Civil War" makes more sense but it cannot be done with one movie.   The Schism being Bucky isn't that strong.   Cap and Shellhead were okay with Thor taking Loki.    Not much of a difference in my mind.

"He will pay for his sins."

"No.  He returns to Asgard."

Brief fight scene

"Okay.  Let's be buds and form a club."

That said-  I know I will still like it.


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## megamania (Nov 26, 2015)

Wish there was more Black Panther......   Marvel's equal to Batman.


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## delericho (Nov 26, 2015)

megamania said:


> Cap and Shellhead were okay with Thor taking Loki.    Not much of a difference in my mind.




The difference is that Loki actually did what he was accused of. From the trailer, it looks like Bucky has been _accused_ of something serious but something that he _didn't do_. If Cap believes his friend won't receive a fair trial then he might well fight for him.


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## Ryujin (Nov 26, 2015)

delericho said:


> The difference is that Loki actually did what he was accused of. From the trailer, it looks like Bucky has been _accused_ of something serious but something that he _didn't do_. If Cap believes his friend won't receive a fair trial then he might well fight for him.




Well Bucky did actually do a fair bit that he could be tried for. He just did it when he was the brainwashed "Winter Soldier."


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## delericho (Nov 26, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> Well Bucky did actually do a fair bit that he could be tried for. He just did it when he was the brainwashed "Winter Soldier."




All true. I think the key is more likely to be "Cap believes he won't get a fair hearing" rather than anything else.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 26, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> As if everyone was the same




We're all humans. Well, unless you're a Trump fan. Than you might consider some people to be subhuman. Or man-bear-pigs.


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## Ryujin (Nov 26, 2015)

goldomark said:


> We're all humans. Well, unless you're a Trump fan. Than you might consider some people to be subhuman. Or man-bear-pigs.




That's totally serial.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 26, 2015)

Excelsior!


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## delericho (Nov 26, 2015)

Tonguez said:


> The good guys fighting each other is gonna make it hard to get a satisfying ending without really rocking the Marvelverse though. How exactly do you end this without killing off major characters or having them make peace to face a common enemy




IMO, they _should_ rock the Marvelverse. Do a proper tragedy, and end with the (permanent) death of one of our heroes.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 26, 2015)

If one should die it should be Captain America. Like he does in the civil war comics. His death would also kick Stark in the nuts. Once again. The MCU seems to put Stark as the central protagonist and he keeps making mistakes. The death of Cap would just be another. 

And when he steals the Infinity Gauntlet away from Thanos, he'll bring Cap back to life or do a reboot of the universe to correct his mistakes.


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## calronmoonflower (Nov 26, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> Well Bucky did actually do a fair bit that he could be tried for. He just did it when he was the brainwashed "Winter Soldier."



You're forgetting that a trail, let alone a fair one, being suggested as not an option.


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## MechaPilot (Nov 28, 2015)

The last fight was good, but what makes it a great moment is the whole "he's my friend" "so was I" exchange.

I'm still looking forward to Suicide Squad and BvS more than Civil War, but the Civil War trailer is definitely better than the Star Wars trailer.  The Star Wars trailer didn't even make me want to go see the movie (I'm going to anyway because it's Star Wars and the franchise deserves a chance to redeem itself), but the Civil War trailer definitely did.


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## Gog (Nov 28, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> Well Bucky did actually do a fair bit that he could be tried for. He just did it when he was the brainwashed "Winter Soldier."




I think the Bucky thing in the trailer is a misdirect, that will be the beginning of the movie and someone will be after him, to kill him sure, but it isn't the reason for the Accords. Avengers 2 and the Inhumans (maybe) will be the reason for the accords.


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## Ryujin (Nov 28, 2015)

Gog said:


> I think the Bucky thing in the trailer is a misdirect, that will be the beginning of the movie and someone will be after him, to kill him sure, but it isn't the reason for the Accords. Avengers 2 and the Inhumans (maybe) will be the reason for the accords.




Certainly not if it follows the story from the comics, but we hopefully won't know that until it comes out.


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## Tonguez (Nov 28, 2015)

Gog said:


> I think the Bucky thing in the trailer is a misdirect, that will be the beginning of the movie and someone will be after him, to kill him sure, but it isn't the reason for the Accords. Avengers 2 and the Inhumans (maybe) will be the reason for the accords.




I'm guessing that Cap is sent to arrest Bucky under the accords but let him go instead thus causing his break with Tony.

In the Trailer 0.57 it shows the Sokovia Accords being passed across the table, so it does seem that Avengers 2 was the main impetus for things. Plus we saw in Jessica Jones that there are also civilians upset by the Battle of New York too

OMG I've just realised that all of stage 1, 2 and 3 is just a build up towards having a Damage Control movie starring Stan Lee!!


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## Herobizkit (Nov 29, 2015)

Looks great, but better not be no Episode I trade negotiations bull-schnickety.

If I want to watch a court trial, I can watch... uh... Boston Legal.  And I would.  Again.


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## Silver Moon (Dec 4, 2015)

megamania said:


> Wish there was more Black Panther......   Marvel's equal to Batman.



Technically, the Marvel counterpart to Batman originally was the hero Nighthawk.   

Then they later introduced MoonKnight as another Batman-like character.


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## Umbran (Dec 4, 2015)

delericho said:


> IMO, they _should_ rock the Marvelverse. Do a proper tragedy, and end with the (permanent) death of one of our heroes.




The comic book Civil War didn't end that way, why should the movie?


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## Umbran (Dec 4, 2015)

goldomark said:


> If one should die it should be Captain America. Like he does in the civil war comics.




I don't think that's an accurate description of what happens there...

[sblock]Cap surrenders, and the Civil War ends.  It is in the following storyline, "The Death of Captain America", that he's shot and killed while in custody, on his way to the courthouse.

And, of course, he's not *actually* killed.  He's unstuck in time...[/sblock]


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## Kramodlog (Dec 4, 2015)

Umbran said:


> And, of course, he's not *actually* killed.  He's unstuck in time...




Comic books!


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## megamania (Dec 4, 2015)

Silver Moon said:


> Technically, the Marvel counterpart to Batman originally was the hero Nighthawk.
> 
> Then they later introduced MoonKnight as another Batman-like character.




There has been many..... Night Stalker from New Warriors was a younger version of a Batman copycat.


But to me, only the Black Panther has succeeded in being a Batman level character.


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## delericho (Dec 4, 2015)

Umbran said:


> The comic book Civil War didn't end that way, why should the movie?




Because it makes for a better story.

And because, as you note, Cap _does_ die in the comics - maybe not at the end of "Civil War" but pretty shortly thereafter and as a consequence of CW.


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## Tonguez (Dec 4, 2015)

megamania said:


> There has been many..... Night Stalker from New Warriors was a younger version of a Batman copycat.
> 
> 
> But to me, only the Black Panther has succeeded in being a Batman level character.




well considering that Batman is based on The Shadow, Doc Savage and Zorro I'm not sure where you would draw the comparison line. Moonknight is more like the Shadow than Batman and to me Night Thrasher seemed more to be emulating Robin/Nightwing rather than Batman (although the murdere parents thing ...).

but I do agree Black panther is the only one who really stands out. plus he's a better fighter than Captain America - arguably the best fighter in the Marvelverse


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## Umbran (Dec 4, 2015)

delericho said:


> And because, as you note, Cap _does_ die in the comics - maybe not at the end of "Civil War" but pretty shortly thereafter and as a consequence of CW.




I left that in the spoiler block for a reason, but now the cat's out of the bag, I guess.

He got shot, looked dead, and everyone presumed him dead, yes.  But, in reality, the bullet he was shot with didn't kill him - it unstuck him in time in a bid by the Red Skull to take over his body and identity.  Read _Captain America: Reborn_ for the details.

Parallels to Batman's apparent death in Final Crisis, and return in _Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne_ would not be amiss, IMHO.


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## delericho (Dec 4, 2015)

Umbran said:


> I left that in the spoiler block for a reason...




I would have thought spoilers for an eight year old comic are fair game by this point.



> He got shot, looked dead, and everyone presumed him dead, yes.  But, in reality, the bullet he was shot with didn't kill him - it unstuck him in time in a bid by the Red Skull to take over his body and identity.  Read _Captain America: Reborn_ for the details.




The rotating door of death is one of the great weaknesses of comic books, though understandable for commercial reasons (audiences assume Cap = Steve Rogers, so they keep characters in a weird stasis as a result). But the movies have different commercial pressures, which can work for a better story here - since Chris Evans' contract is coming to an end, there's good reason to write him out, and either have Falcon step into the role or just retire the hero. Either way, they then get to show that death actually has meaning in their stories and that they have a universe where change is possible.

Or they could just adapt the CA: Reborn storyline for their next film, and possibly even use that as their excuse for recasting the character.


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## Umbran (Dec 4, 2015)

delericho said:


> I would have thought spoilers for an eight year old comic are fair game by this point.




Given that it is related to an upcoming movie, I thought it polite to keep it a matter of choice for the individual, is all.



> But the movies have different commercial pressures, which can work for a better story here - since Chris Evans' contract is coming to an end, there's good reason to write him out, and either have Falcon step into the role or just retire the hero. Either way, they then get to show that death actually has meaning in their stories and that they have a universe where change is possible.




Evan's contract is good through at least Infinity War Part 2, which is 2019 - not coming to an end for a few years yet.  Plus, kill him in Civil War, and then basically write him out for the next two movies you have him contracted for, in preparation of him leaving?  Spend *a third of his contract* to write him out?  Does that make sense?

In addition, Evans is on record as saying, just a couple of months ago, “Listen, if Marvel wants me they got me. I’ve never had such a relationship where you have such—I mean look at my resume, I’m used to being on set being like, ‘Ah is this movie gonna be terrible?’ Marvel just can’t stop making great movies, they do it in their sleep. It’s wonderful directors and producers and actors and scripts, and it’s like a playground as an actor.”

Now, in the comics universe, eventually Steve Rogers shifts out of the Captain America role, and takes Nick Fury's seat - that may make a lot of sense as both Evans and Sam Jackson age out of their current roles.


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## MechaPilot (Dec 4, 2015)

Tonguez said:


> well considering that Batman is based on The Shadow. . .




I'd like to see The Shadow come back again in film.  I thought the last one we had with Alec Baldwin was fun in a campy, pulpy sort of way (kind of like how I still enjoy watching the 1980s Flash Gordon film and Barbarella), but I'd love to see a more serious treatment of it now that special effects are better and superheroes aren't treated like kiddie-fare.

My superhero dream would be if a quality film company put together a TopCow cinematic universe with the Darkness, Witchblade, Magdalena, Danger Girl, Lara Croft, etc.  Of course, it'd also be great to see some of those titles cross over into either the Marvel or DC universes.


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## Umbran (Dec 4, 2015)

MechaPilot said:


> My superhero dream would be if a quality film company put together a TopCow cinematic universe with the Darkness, Witchblade, Magdalena, Danger Girl, Lara Croft, etc.  Of course, it'd also be great to see some of those titles cross over into either the Marvel or DC universes.




Witchblade had a great first season as a TV show.  It would have had a great second season if the writers had actually expected to get one, and the star hadn't had to go into rehab.

Which is to say, for really well *written* comics, the TV series might be a better vehicle than a movie.


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## Tonguez (Dec 4, 2015)

MechaPilot said:


> My superhero dream would be if a quality film company put together a TopCow cinematic universe with the Darkness, Witchblade, Magdalena, Danger Girl, Lara Croft, etc.  Of course, it'd also be great to see some of those titles cross over into either the Marvel or DC universes.




theres been both Witchblade and Danger Girl crossovers with Batman iirc and also a Witchblade/Daredevil (?) - It might be cool to see them appear on the Netflix series.  

although with Doctor Strange opening up the movies we could fit them in there too. but given that Marvel gods are now aliens, I am wondering just how much occult action horror is going to go down in the Marvelverse. 
I suppose Ghostrider is out there...


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## MechaPilot (Dec 5, 2015)

Tonguez said:


> theres been both Witchblade and Danger Girl crossovers with Batman iirc and also a Witchblade/Daredevil (?i - It might be cool to see them appear on the Netflix series.
> 
> although with Doctor Strange opening up the movies we could fit them in there too. but given that Marvel gods are now aliens, I am wondering just how much occult action horror is going to go down in the Marvelverse.
> I suppose Ghostrider is out there...




I have heard of, and seen cover images of, a comic where Danger Girl crossed over with Batman, but I've never been able to get my hands on it to read it.  I also recall something about them crossing over with the G.I. Joe comic, and the Wikipedia entry mentions something about them also crossing over with Army of Darkness (which just sounds awesome to me).

I'm not sure about magic in Marvel, as you say, we'll have to see what they do with Dr. Strange, and if Ghost Rider is ever revived.  However, I know DC has an as of yet untapped pool of magical characters to draw from: Zatanna, Constantine, Etrigan, etc.  There was even rumor of a Guillermo Del Toro directed justice league Dark, but that's unlikely to ever come to fruition (Guillermo always has like 50 projects he's interested in).

As far as Witchblade and Daredevil, a quick Google check didn't bring anything up.  However, I actually own the first part of the three part Witchblade Punisher crossover, so I know they have crossed over with Marvel at least once.


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## pickin_grinnin (Dec 5, 2015)

I hated Civil War in the comics, but this might be better.  I haven't liked Iron Man and the people who followed him since Civil War, and dropped a lot of titles from my pull list as a result.  It was sort of the beginning of the end for me when it came to reading Marvel comics (which I had been doing since the 70s).

Putting Constantine back in the main DC Universe and making him a pale version of his former self is what ended things between me and DC.


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## PurpleDragonKnight (Dec 5, 2015)

pickin_grinnin said:


> I hated Civil War in the comics, but this might be better.  I haven't liked Iron Man and the people who followed him since Civil War, and dropped a lot of titles from my pull list as a result.  It was sort of the beginning of the end for me when it came to reading Marvel comics (which I had been doing since the 70s).



I was talking about this to a bunch of friends tonight: although I collected Civil War like no other and anticipated each number more than the last, each new issue was like someone jabbing my Marvel childhood gut... I felt it disheartening to see heroes pitted against heroes because of politics, like there's not enough political garbage strife in the real world already.  You read comics to get a boost from uncompromising heroes who stand together no matter what.  In the 80's they kept sending that red headed lawyer government dude at the Avengers to make trouble for them, and each time Beast would drop from the ceiling, tousling his hair or stealing his shades while they were running to the Quinjet to deal with a real emergency, laughing at the dude on their way out.  That kind of camaraderie is sadly lacking from the comics these days, and seems to be proportionally lacking from many institutions in the real world too, out of concerns for political correctness that are blown out of proportion.  The result: more dour and grim and ever more dark comics, as we descend in the last refuge of entertainment that is still acceptable: gratuitous violence.

Damn you Civil War.  Damn you Batman vs. Superman.


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## pickin_grinnin (Dec 5, 2015)

PurpleDragonKnight said:


> I felt it disheartening to see heroes pitted against heroes because of politics, like there's not enough political garbage strife in the real world already.




One of the reasons I disliked it so much was due to who was in the presidency at the time (in the real world).  Some aspects of the storyline hit way too close to home.


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## Staffan (Dec 6, 2015)

Umbran said:


> Which is to say, for really well *written* comics, the TV series might be a better vehicle than a movie.




Personally, I much prefer the slower story-telling of a TV series to a movie or even movie series. You can layer so much more depth, both in the plot and in the character-building, in a TV series. For one of the best examples, see Babylon 5 - particularly the character arcs of Londo Mollari and G'Kar.

One of the best things to happen in comics was Claremont's run on the Uncanny X-Men, where you had a single writer on the book for over *15 years*. This allowed time for characters to grow, some characters to leave, new ones to join, and major changes that felt organic (e.g. Storm being depowered for a few years, and _still_ kicking all sorts of ass as the team leader). The reason the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix saga was so awesome wasn't that it was cosmic and stuff, it was because it was told over a span of four years, with Jean gradually growing in power due to the Phoenix influence and then becoming corrupted through the machinations of the Hellfire Club.

Now, comics are more movie-like, with the six-issue story arc being the standard as opposed to the episodic/continuous story. You also have the plots being disrupted by This Year's Event: House of M, Civil War, Secret Invasion, and so on, as well as constant relaunches in the belief that people are loath to jump onto a comic at issue #256. That makes it hard to work on a continuing story.


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## Umbran (Dec 6, 2015)

PurpleDragonKnight said:


> I felt it disheartening to see heroes pitted against heroes because of politics, like there's not enough political garbage strife in the real world already.




And, in producing that feeling,t i think the line did what it was intended to do.  This is by no means the first time they've used the comics to make relevant political statements - Captain America has split from the government more than once for various reasons that were thinly veiled statements on the times.



> You read comics to get a boost from uncompromising heroes who stand together no matter what.




With respect, maybe *you* read them for that reason.  Leave room for other folks wanting other things from comics, please and thanks.  



> That kind of camaraderie is sadly lacking from the comics these days, and seems to be proportionally lacking from many institutions in the real world too, out of concerns for political correctness that are blown out of proportion.




Um, no.  If they were concerned about political correctness, they'd be all sweetness and light and never disagreeing and never saying things that would discomfit anyone. Taking a pointed stand and showing, "this kind of conflict is *wrong*," is about the opposite of political correctness.  Showing otherwise supposedly good (but perhaps flawed) people become enemies is political *reality*.


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## megamania (Dec 6, 2015)

Tonguez said:


> well considering that Batman is based on The Shadow, Doc Savage and Zorro I'm not sure where you would draw the comparison line.





So true


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## megamania (Dec 6, 2015)

pickin_grinnin said:


> I hated Civil War in the comics, .




Why is that?   Any story that truly makes you wonder which side you would belong on seemed good to me.   It was drawn out in some ways and just as drawn out it was "forgotten" also.

The concept was excellent to me.   Something not done before (maybe DC's Legends Limited series)


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## delericho (Dec 7, 2015)

Staffan said:


> One of the best things to happen in comics was Claremont's run on the Uncanny X-Men, where you had a single writer on the book for over *15 years*.




That's great for the people who've been reading since the start of those fifteen years. Not so good for the kid wanting to jump in somewhere in the middle of year eight.

Problem is that the latter invariably outnumber the former.


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## Tonguez (Dec 7, 2015)

delericho said:


> That's great for the people who've been reading since the start of those fifteen years. Not so good for the kid wanting to jump in somewhere in the middle of year eight.
> 
> Problem is that the latter invariably outnumber the former.




not really, especially as X-Men had the advantage of rotating line up, evolving storylines and crossover events. For instance I came to X-Men when Piotr was searching for his sister but soon caught up on personalities even if backstory came later. Then of course you got the merchandizing and saturday morning cartoons to fill in gaps


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## Staffan (Dec 10, 2015)

delericho said:


> That's great for the people who've been reading since the start of those fifteen years. Not so good for the kid wanting to jump in somewhere in the middle of year eight.
> 
> Problem is that the latter invariably outnumber the former.




The thing is that it was a continuous story - more like a soap opera than an "arc" show like Babylon 5. It was fairly easy to jump on and figure out what was going on, with plenty of exposition to cover the bits that needed to be covered.

For example, in 1981 there was a two-parter X-Men story published called Days of Future Past (the movie wasn't an exact copy, but shared some of the same concepts). It showed a dystopian future where Sentinels had taken over America, and mutants were essentially kept in concentration camps. This future came to pass because of the assassination of a senator championing anti-mutant legislation. However, the remaining X-Men succeed in a plot to jam their power dampeners, which allows Rachel Summers, a young telepath, to project the adult Kate Pryde's mind into her past self, Kitty Pryde. In the past, Kate/Kitty gets the X-Men to stop the assassination, but instead the senator's wife dies. That's a change, but not exactly the rousing success they hoped for.

However, three years later (in real time), Rachel Summers manages to travel through time herself (instead of just sending Kate's mind back), and thus enters the "mainstream" Marvel Universe. In these issues, the background is explained so you understand what's going on, but if you've read the original stuff it's a much deeper experience. And then, of course, while the team are having all sorts of other adventures, Rachel has to deal with being in a world where her mother died as the Phoenix instead of the more peaceful resolution in her time-line that eventually lead to her birth, and all sorts of stuff like that.

I think the secret sauce was that in most cases, the long-term plot development was handled like B-plots, with more immediate A-plots to get resolved. There's a bad guy who wants to do bad stuff, punching ensues, and in the background there's some character development happening. The reader gets the immediate pay-off from the punching bit, but is also enriched by the character development. Now, the A-plot takes six issues instead of one or two to resolve, and there pretty much isn't any B-plot.


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## Nellisir (Dec 10, 2015)

delericho said:


> That's great for the people who've been reading since the start of those fifteen years. Not so good for the kid wanting to jump in somewhere in the middle of year eight.
> Problem is that the latter invariably outnumber the former.




As has been said, that's not necessarily a problem. I did start in the middle of year ten or so; the middle of the Mutant Massacre, to be precise. (Yes, the Australian X-Men are my X-Men.) There were long arcs and short arcs.


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## ccs (Dec 10, 2015)

delericho said:


> That's great for the people who've been reading since the start of those fifteen years. Not so good for the kid wanting to jump in somewhere in the middle of year eight.
> 
> Problem is that the latter invariably outnumber the former.




(Sales) History shows us that it was NOT a problem.


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## delericho (Dec 10, 2015)

ccs said:


> (Sales) History shows us that it was NOT a problem.




The people running the comics nowadays would seem to disagree.


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## Umbran (Dec 10, 2015)

delericho said:


> The people running the comics nowadays would seem to disagree.




On what basis do you say that?  That they aren't doing it the same way today?

I don't think that's a fair basis.  The 1980s market and the 2010s market are separated by 30 years, and all the changes that go with the passing of time - strategies that worked back in the 1980s may not work well today.

Moreover, in order to pull that off, you need an author who is actually going to stick around and write your comics for that long - long enough to get married, have a kid, and have that kid grow up and enter high school - so many changes in personal lives and careers that you cannot really count on it happening.  It is not unreasonable to say that run was a bit of a fluke - it may have been a highly functional one in its day, but that doesn't mean it is easily repeatable.


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## delericho (Dec 10, 2015)

Umbran said:


> On what basis do you say that?  That they aren't doing it the same way today?




Yes, exactly that.



> Moreover, in order to pull that off, you need an author who is actually going to stick around and write your comics for that long...




That's true. But they don't even _try_. Instead, comics these days seem to be all about the next big event - it seems they have a massive universe-changing event planned every couple of years.

Having said that...



> The 1980s market and the 2010s market are separated by 30 years, and all the changes that go with the passing of time - strategies that worked back in the 1980s may not work well today.




This is certainly true.


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## calronmoonflower (Dec 15, 2015)

Well a new trailer is out that goes father into what the conflict is about.
[video=youtube;dcI8KLgluPc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcI8KLgluPc&feature=player_embedded[/video]


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## Nellisir (Dec 15, 2015)

delericho said:


> Yes, exactly that.
> That's true. But they don't even _try_. Instead, comics these days seem to be all about the next big event - it seems they have a massive universe-changing event planned every couple of years.




One bigger driver in the comics market is the decline of comic book stores and the rise of the collected trade. I'm not sure why it took so long to switch over (might have to do with the audience getting older and having more income and desire for a sturdier, shelf-worthy product), but there's a really high priority nowadays on stand-alone story arcs that span 4-6 issues, and can be easily collected into a trade. That's a big change in plotting and scripting. Event storylines sell books and provide cross-fertilization between lines. An X-crossover is a big deal, but one that crosses between different lines (ie the Black Vortex, which crossed Guardians and X-Men) potentially doubles the audience.

Personally, I had vowed to quit buying monthlies after Secret Wars and just get the trades. I'll run a few months behind, but there's not exactly a dearth of back material to acquire (or I could just...save the money). I'm a little bit on the fence now (clever Marvel - spinning out Secret Wars has given me a loophole to start buying the new X-books, since SW technically isn't done yet), but still leaning that way.

Would really like to see more of the Australian X-Men issues collected together. That time period is really foundational to a lot of stuff that's still in play today.


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## Tonguez (Dec 15, 2015)

Nellisir said:


> One bigger driver in the comics market is the decline of comic book stores and the rise of the collected trade. I'm not sure why it took so long to switch over (might have to do with the audience getting older and having more income and desire for a sturdier, shelf-worthy product), but there's a really high priority nowadays on stand-alone story arcs that span 4 the -6 issues, and can be easily collected into a trade. That's a big change in plotting and scripting. Event storylines sell books and provide cross-fertilization between lines. An X-crossover is a big deal, but one that crosses between different lines (ie the Black Vortex, which crossed Guardians and X-Men) potentially doubles the audience.




Actually you've got a good point there and I wonder if the rise of the Trade collectables is the key motivator for the change. I can't remember how prominent Trades were back in the 90's, I know I didn't have the disposal income then to invest in them - much easier to just do single issues (it was also exciting to descend into the comic stall and secure the latest issue of the Swamp Thing Saga, Lone Wolf and Cub and th Elementals Sex Special) 

I suppose that once they brought in the concept of graphic novels and made comics acceptable adult reading the mve to quality Trades was inevitable.


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## MechaPilot (Dec 15, 2015)

calronmoonflower said:


> Well a new trailer is out that goes father into what the conflict is about.




Did you intend to post a different trailer, because the one you did post is actually just a trimmed down Japanese subtitled version of the first one.


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## Tonguez (Dec 15, 2015)

MechaPilot said:


> Did you intend to post a different trailer, because the one you did post is actually just a trimmed down Japanese subtitled version of the first one.




yeah nothing new in it, indeed less than the earlier one, but I do think it was an easier narrative to understand


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## Nellisir (Dec 16, 2015)

Tonguez said:


> Actually you've got a good point there and I wonder if the rise of the Trade collectables is the key motivator for the change. I can't remember how prominent Trades were back in the 90's, I know I didn't have the disposal income then to invest in them - much easier to just do single issues (it was also exciting to descend into the comic stall and secure the latest issue of the Swamp Thing Saga, Lone Wolf and Cub and th Elementals Sex Special)
> 
> I suppose that once they brought in the concept of graphic novels and made comics acceptable adult reading the mve to quality Trades was inevitable.




Trades were climbing in the '90's, but it was much more specific, and there was a longer lag. Trades really took off in the mid-2000's (<cough>riseoftheinternet/declineofthebricksandmortarstore). <cough> All of _Sandman_ and _Hellblazer_ were collected into trades (a lot of Vertigo was), but X-Men books weren't. _Age of Apocalypse_ had small trades for each mini-series in 1995/1996, but the full "Complete" series of trades wasn't until 2006.  _Inferno_ wasn't collected until 1997; _Fall of the Mutants_ in 2002 (14 years after publication).

I think it was a sort of perfect storm scenario. Comics really boomed in the '80s and '90s, and as that audience ages and had more disposable income, computer games and movies made such "geekery" socially acceptable, so there wasn't the pressure there had been in the past to keep them "kid-only".</cough></cough>


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## megamania (Dec 25, 2015)

Suspect there will be a Giant surprise yet to be revealed in the movie.


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