# Transform - Size Changes (Appendix 2)



## Slander (Aug 18, 2005)

Quick question. In the appendix under the new Size Change enhancement for Transform, there is the following line:

"A creature’s Strength score cannot be reduced below 1 this way, and its reach and speed obviously cannot be reduced below 0."

In the paragraph immediately before this, it states "Changing a creature’s size modifies its reach and speed and grants the appropriate size bonuses or penalties to attack rolls, AC, and Hide checks, *but otherwise does not change a creature’s ability scores or natural armor.*"

Is a creature's strength score supposed to be modified when in/decreasing its size?
If so, what are those modifiers? It's not based on the monster size-advancement table, is it?

Thank you.


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## astriemer (Aug 18, 2005)

RW indicated that that is a typo. Use Infuse X to change Str and Abjure Nature for natural armor.

Should show up in the errata at some point.


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## Slander (Aug 18, 2005)

Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.


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## genshou (Aug 21, 2005)

astriemer said:
			
		

> RW indicated that that is a typo. Use Infuse X to change Str and Abjure Nature for natural armor.
> 
> Should show up in the errata at some point.



So in other words, after already spending a fortune on Transform enhancements, you don't even get the real benefits and drawbacks of being a larger or smaller size?  I guess that's balanced... or whatever. (Personal Note: House rule time!)


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## astriemer (Aug 22, 2005)

You do get the bonuses to reach, size, attack, AC that size change offers, just not the stat modifiers. If you allow for that stat modifiers to adjust, then transform easily trumps infuse for buming up stats (Strength in particular).


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## genshou (Aug 26, 2005)

astriemer said:
			
		

> You do get the bonuses to reach, size, attack, AC that size change offers, just not the stat modifiers. If you allow for that stat modifiers to adjust, then transform easily trumps infuse for buming up stats (Strength in particular).



Well, I've been making a lot of tables and doing a lot of comparisons.  It's not actually as unbalanced as you might think at first glance, as the penalties are massive as well...

Right now I'm trying to figure out just exactly what I need to change to make the spell enhancement fit my own needs.  I'll get back to you with more.


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## RangerWickett (Aug 26, 2005)

I'm just hopping in to say, first, that I'm busy getting products ready for sale (including Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth), so I don't have as much time to come to the boards and answer questions in depth.

And second, yes, I wanted the size change to not inherently alter ability scores. I felt the Transform list was too flexible as it was (if you recall, in 2nd edition, the Transmutation school got /all/ the good spells, because people used flavor instead of game balance when figuring out where to place spells). Unfortunately, due to the set-up of D&D rules for monsters, I either had to let Transform grant spell-like abilities and stat boosts, or completely write a system of critter creation, which would have been more complicated than I wanted.

For the size adjusting, I figured I'd just keep it simple. You're changing size. That's it.


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## genshou (Aug 26, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I'm just hopping in to say, first, that I'm busy getting products ready for sale (including Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth), so I don't have as much time to come to the boards and answer questions in depth.
> 
> And second, yes, I wanted the size change to not inherently alter ability scores. I felt the Transform list was too flexible as it was (if you recall, in 2nd edition, the Transmutation school got /all/ the good spells, because people used flavor instead of game balance when figuring out where to place spells). Unfortunately, due to the set-up of D&D rules for monsters, I either had to let Transform grant spell-like abilities and stat boosts, or completely write a system of critter creation, which would have been more complicated than I wanted.
> 
> For the size adjusting, I figured I'd just keep it simple. You're changing size. That's it.



Yeah, and it does add a layer of complexity if you use size change with creature forms, since you're already gaining the impressively high ability score without even changing size.  I suppose the rules would have to become far too complex if I worked with size changes to change ability scores based on the advancement table in the MM.  Well, thanks for helping me get that idea out of my system, RW.  Just goes to show you even more proof that not all of my ideas are good   I mean, just take a look at the expanded EoM cleric domains thread, which I'm about to go write in.  That turned out horribly, if you ask me.


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## astriemer (Aug 27, 2005)

Also, should you try to come up with a house rule, someone (don't remember who at the moment) was postulating using the immortals revised CR system to modify the transform costs so that you do get "full" changes with the transform, but more balanced from a cost stand point.


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## genshou (Aug 29, 2005)

astriemer said:
			
		

> Also, should you try to come up with a house rule, someone (don't remember who at the moment) was postulating using the immortals revised CR system to modify the transform costs so that you do get "full" changes with the transform, but more balanced from a cost stand point.



Was that here on the forums?  If you provide me with some good search criteria, I can find it here on the boards via the search function granted me by my Community Supporter account.  That, or if you added it to your Subscribed Threads, you can find it there. (At the top of the EN World interface, under My Account > My Subscriptions in case you don't already know.)


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## Verequus (Aug 29, 2005)

Search for UK-CR system, Upper_Krust, 1 MP = 1 CR, transform - that's all specifics which I can still remember.


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## genshou (Aug 29, 2005)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Search for UK-CR system, Upper_Krust, 1 MP = 1 CR, transform - that's all specifics which I can still remember.



Hey there, *RM*...

Well, I think this is what you are talking about.  Could you look and confirm?

I don't really understand most of what I'm reading in that thread.  It looks like I'll need to learn more about this "Immortals Handbook" everyone seems to be talking about.  Is it supposed to be an alternate ruleset for epic levels in 3.5?  And was there ever a 3E release (for the _cultist_ in me)?


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## Verequus (Aug 30, 2005)

Yes, but in version 5. I can mail it to you. I've succeeded to find the two relevant topics here:  http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=132737 and http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=134257 . At least the latter one is related to our topic.

The IH hasn't been released yet - only an inofficial version of the Bestiary, but it doesn't contain the CR system. This will be released in the Bestiary 2 (whenever this will see the light). But another part of the IH will contain a few rules, which will deal with some inconsistencies of the ELH.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Aug 31, 2005)

Genshou,

  I was working on a HR version of UK's system.. and life interupted as usual.
Unfortunatley I had not gotten very far yet. I have some time coming up this month and was planning on digging back into it. My Druid player is getting high enough level to be thinking of using it 

 So far the system is a bit odd to try and balance against the other lists. My current concept is that you have to pay for a base Type enhancement, then each Type would have a listing of enhancements you could get from there.

When I have something of substance I will post it here  RIght now the above sentence is better explaining than the chicken scratches I have on half a dozen pages of paper.


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## genshou (Aug 31, 2005)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Yes, but in version 5. I can mail it to you. I've succeeded to find the two relevant topics here:  http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=132737 and http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=134257 . At least the latter one is related to our topic.
> 
> The IH hasn't been released yet - only an inofficial version of the Bestiary, but it doesn't contain the CR system. This will be released in the Bestiary 2 (whenever this will see the light). But another part of the IH will contain a few rules, which will deal with some inconsistencies of the ELH.



Please do mail it to me.  Send an email to me via my EN World profile page and I'll reply to you (sorry, but I never list my address on the boards).


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