# WotC and brick and mortar retail stores - Greg Leeds weighs in



## Windjammer (Mar 24, 2010)

Over the last couple of days, there's been an interesting exchange of sorts between a retailer and WotC president Greg Leeds. 'Exchange' may stretch the terms here, but in essence a retailer presented his situation and Leeds wrote a response. I'm going to quote both in full and, to round it off, I'm going to quote what a retailer related on another forum - anonymously; he's on this board, and if he wishes to put a name to the post, I leave it at his discretion, not mine.
*Retailer Mike King:
*



> *View from the Game Store--Industry Relationships*
> 
> *Column by Marcus King*
> 
> ...



Greg Leeds' response:



> *Greg Leeds of Wizards of the Coast on Industry Relationships*
> 
> *'One Additional Perspective'*
> 
> ...



And, an additional perspective which antedates the above exchange but is very recent (put outside quote tags because they've for some reason killed the formatting - don't we love forum software):

----------------------------------

"From the point of view of a game store manager, it seems clear to me that _4E_ is not as successful as _Wizards of the Coast_ needed it to be, and that they are pushing hard to fix it. 

As a buyer for a game store, I can say the lack of _Arcane Powers 2, Dungeon Masters Guide 3_ and the imminent publication of _The Rules Compendium_ seems ominous. It feels like the end of 3.5 did, only on an accellerated schedule. 

As a seller of 4E books, I can tell you that sales have dropped dramatically for new books. The first 60 days of sales of _Martial Powers 2_ was well under half the comparable sales of _Martial Powers 1_, and whereas I used to bring in a dozen or more copies of each new book for opening week, I am now bringing in no more than half a dozen. 

As a direct customer of _Wizards of the Coast_, I can say that their marketing has become increasingly and nakedly aggressive. For example, in order to receive and be able to sell the _Player's Handbook 3_ on the same date _Barnes and Noble_ does, our store had to agree to host _World Wide Game Day Player Handbook 3 Adventure_, otherwise we'd have to wait over 10 days later to release _(and no game store can afford to cross Wizards of the Coast regarding release dates, let me tell you)_. Host _Game Day_, or give _Barnes and Noble_ (who regularly breaks release dates without consequence) ten days head start? Not actually a choice. 

Or consider _D&D Encounters_. This is _Wizards_ new program to promote _4E_ play in store. Starting at first level, an adventure a week, for twelve weeks, with the promise of additional _"seasons"_ of play. There is an explicit in-game mechanism, called _Reknown_, which rewards players who have access to and use specific published materials, and which disadvantages characters in game who do not. At various _Reknown_ totals, players gain the equivalent of encounter powers for their characters, above and beyond what they entitled to for their class, level, and magic items, and some of the highest _Reknown_ rewards are awarded for using specific products. 

That is, a player with access with to just the original _Player's Handbook_ playing a _Ranger_ with a photocopied character sheet will actually have one less encounter power at first level than a the player sitting next to him playing a _Psion Shardmind_ built using the _Character Builder_, at least until he has caught up with the _Psion_'s _Reknown_. But the _Psion_ will almost always have more _Reknown_. 

The _D&D Encounters_ adventure itself is not entirely self-contained, but depends on DM knowledge of both the _Forgotten Realms Player's Guide_ and the _Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide_. It is specificly tied to that setting, and the mechanics contained. In order to be able to sell new _4E_ books without waiting an additional ten days, either I, or the store, are going to have to eat the cost of two of the most expensive 4E books published. 

Further, it is obviously that they are putting much more effort into the promotional adventures. Both the _World Wide Game Day_ and _D&D Encounter_ adventures have actual authors, editors, and staff credited, and are substantially less awful than previous efforts. While still lame, they require much less effort to fix, as they are more internally consistant, and have fewer contradictions, errors, and omissions. At least it's clear they have an author, and are edited. 

It feels to me like _Hasbro_ has lit a fire under _Wizards of the Coast_, and given them an ultimatum: _Perform or Be Sold Off_. There was an article recently in the _Wall Street Journal_ about _Hasbro_'s performance and profitability. _Transformers_ and _G.I. Joe_ get kudos, they discuss their _Parker Brothers_ and _Avalon Hill_ board game lines, but neither _Magic the Gathering_ nor _Dungeons and Dragons_ even rates a mention! 

That is suggestive of the sad state of _Wizards of the Coast_."

----------------------------------


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## Joshua Randall (Mar 24, 2010)

These three quoted posts have nothing to do with each other.

Also, IBTL.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm not so sure about the gloom & doom. I'm no game store owner, but "perform or be sold off!" seems hyperbolic to me. And remember, I'm pretty hyperbolic. 

I think Greg Leeds has basically the right idea -- game stores promote games, and D&D is a game, which needs to be played with other human beings to be fully enjoyed, and so game stores are what he's using to bring human beings together to enjoy the game. 

Of course, the culture is shifting right out from under him in a pretty dynamic way. But it's impossible to predict, and I think the game store play effort is a good one (though I'm sad to see such obnoxiously divisive rules elements as _Reknown_ being tossed about). Certainly better than doing nothing.

DDI, I think, bridges the gap between what the game store owner sees and what WotC sees. Martial Power 2, forex, is a book full of crunch that appeals to collectors of crunch, so we'll see more people gravitating toward DDI and the Character Builder for that, where I can access all of the crunch, without having to lug around an extra book. A product like _Dungeon Tiles_ or _Underdark_ isn't so limited. 

Personally, I think there's better ways to encourage individual participation than hobby game stores. D&D needs to get into high schools and GameStop and onto consoles (think: MapTool you can download on Xbox live and find a group to play). But this is all bold new territory for a game traditionally sold by dudes behind desks. 

D&D is niche. It's never gonna reach the level of GI Joe and Transformers (though a better movie based on the game would certainly help -- I can easily imagine a Michael Bay fight scene with a Red Dragon, and that would sell some action figures!). I don't know WotC's internal operation, but I think they're probably fairly content with the game. I see they're continually trying to make it better.

I didn't know about the lack of a DMG3, which is a little tragic, but clearly they're flexible.


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## Windjammer (Mar 24, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> These three quoted posts have nothing to do with each other.




I messed up when quoting the first post (and copy-pasted a wrong one), but fixed it - one minute before you wrote yours. I guess you read the OP *before I fixed it*. Your judgement that the third quote has nothing to do with the first two remains unaffected, though. I did find it worthwhile to learn that retailers are currently forced to host WotC promotion events to get a bonus that online stores get for free - the possibility to sell new product as early as possible.


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## Windjammer (Mar 24, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Personally, I think there's better ways to encourage individual participation than hobby game stores. *D&D needs to get into high schools *and GameStop and onto consoles (think: MapTool you can download on Xbox live and find a group to play). But *this is all bold new territory* for a game traditionally sold by dudes behind desks.




Well, if the OSR can, so can the 800 pound gorilla. 

Seriously, around 2007-2008 WotC put out huge budgets for people volunteering to found D&D-specific university clubs. I think they ought to look into a similar program, if at vastly less scale (i.e. less budget), for high schools.


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## Shemeska (Mar 24, 2010)

Interesting. Thank you for sharing.


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## Fanaelialae (Mar 24, 2010)

Last I'd heard, DMG 3 and AP 2 were delayed til next year, to make room for the Essentials "starter kit" line coming out later this year.


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## Insight (Mar 24, 2010)

The second, unnamed retailer comes across as a real crybaby.  In particular,



> Or consider D&D Encounters. This is Wizards new program to promote 4E play in store. Starting at first level, an adventure a week, for twelve weeks, with the promise of additional "seasons" of play. There is an explicit in-game mechanism, called Reknown, which rewards players who have access to and use specific published materials, and which disadvantages characters in game who do not. At various Reknown totals, players gain the equivalent of encounter powers for their characters, above and beyond what they entitled to for their class, level, and magic items, and some of the highest Reknown rewards are awarded for using specific products.
> 
> That is, a player with access with to just the original Player's Handbook playing a Ranger with a photocopied character sheet will actually have one less encounter power at first level than a the player sitting next to him playing a Psion Shardmind built using the Character Builder, at least until he has caught up with the Psion's Reknown. But the Psion will almost always have more Reknown.
> 
> The D&D Encounters adventure itself is not entirely self-contained, but depends on DM knowledge of both the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. It is specificly tied to that setting, and the mechanics contained. In order to be able to sell new 4E books without waiting an additional ten days, either I, or the store, are going to have to eat the cost of two of the most expensive 4E books published.




Much of this is patently untrue.  

The Renown system allows people to catch up because most of the awards are one-time only.  Eventually, if someone plays enough and puts forth the effort, they will get all of the Renown awards.  It's _possible_ that someone could be left behind, but it's highly unlikely that would happen for someone who plays regularly.

The adventure absolutely does not require someone to own the FRCG and the FRPG.  Everything you _need_ to run the adventure is included.  The vast majority of the encounters will be within Undermountain, which is not detailed in either cited book.  I fail to see how WotC is requiring the DM to have these books.


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## Holy Bovine (Mar 24, 2010)

> There was an article recently in the Wall Street Journal about Hasbro's performance and profitability. Transformers and G.I. Joe get kudos, they discuss their Parker Brothers and Avalon Hill  board game lines, but neither Magic the Gathering nor Dungeons and Dragons even rates a mention!




I guess this person has never read any of the other, dozen or so, articles regarding the same thing over the years.  D&D never gets mentioned and MtG only rarely.  Most gamers are sadly out of touch with how tiny their hobby really is.  I remember Ryan Dancey stating, back in 2001-2 that the total market for RPGs was about 35 million per year..  There are individual medium sized businesses that do more than that a year.


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## filthgrinder (Mar 24, 2010)

Insight said:


> The Renown system allows people to catch up because most of the awards are one-time only.  Eventually, if someone plays enough and puts forth the effort, they will get all of the Renown awards.  It's _possible_ that someone could be left behind, but it's highly unlikely that would happen for someone who plays regularly.
> 
> The adventure absolutely does not require someone to own the FRCG and the FRPG.  Everything you _need_ to run the adventure is included.  The vast majority of the encounters will be within Undermountain, which is not detailed in either cited book.  I fail to see how WotC is requiring the DM to have these books.




Also the Renown awards cited by the "unnamed retailer" encourage players to use new options presented in the PHB3... which encourages players to buy the book... which the "unnamed retailer" is crying that people aren't.

I mean, let's go with the given situation. Someone who only has PHB1, makes an elf ranger. They come to the game and learn, "hey, you get a renown award for playing a new race or class". This player might go, "oh, cool, let me pick up a copy of the new book". Imagine that, a promotion, PROMOTING products? Amazing!

The requirements for the FR books is silly as well, as everything needed to run and play the adventure are provided. They even include pregens as well. They do encourage the use of the character builder, but they want to promote their products, so can we really fault them for that?

The whole quote three way conversation comes off pretty weird. The first post bemoans the decline of hobby stores. The situation isn't unique to hobby stores, all brick and motar stores are feeling the same pains as time shifts. Dealing with the changes is how your business will survive. It's a reality of the current economy. The post from WotC is actually really nice and outlines one of the strategies that hobby stores need to look at, which is to create the "third space" coffee shop idea. This isn't unique to hobby stores either, it's a hot topic in all of brick and mortar retail. Look at the big box bookstores, they are trying the same things as well. Borders and Barnes and Noble have both converted to actually selling coffee but offering up a space for people to come and read and relax. They offer free wifi to customers, aimed at getting people to come into the store. Barnes and Noble's e-reader device, "The Nook" was touted as offering free wifi and free reading within a Barnes and Noble. That hasn't happened yet, but it shows the head space those retailers are in. 

The "breaking the street date" the retailer mentioned offer from Wizards was simply, "enroll in our live play program and you can start selling books 10 days before the release date". It allows hobby stores to compete with Amazon. He mentioned B&N breaking street dates, but I don't know enough about that either way to comment. 

I think part of the "sour grapes" feel of the "unnamed retailer" is because it is a laser beam response to WotC, when the problem being talked about is not just industry wide, but a program with brick and mortar stores and especially niche retailers.

And lastly, WotC is never mentioned in Hasbro's financial statements, ever. They are too small to specifically highlighted when compared with the revenue with GI Joe and the like.


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## Mallus (Mar 24, 2010)

King's article fits my experience. I _do_ shop online because of the price and convenience and I _don't_ frequent my local gaming store because my group already has a great place to play. 

King also makes a great point about the effect information technologies have had on the consumer/retailer relationship. The 'community' might be in your store, or it might just as well be online, and game store workers are no longer the experts, at best they're mere one of number of experts, most of which are your customers who spend their leisure time doing product research (for free).


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## Thanlis (Mar 24, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> I did find it worthwhile to learn that retailers are currently forced to host WotC promotion events to get a bonus that online stores get for free - the possibility to sell new product as early as possible.




Third guy is just grinding his axe. None of my local big box bookstores had PHB3 as early as my FLGS. You couldn't get PHB3 online from either Amazon or B&N before the official release date. You could get it from local game stores a couple of weeks early, because any game store that participates in organized play events gets to break street date now. 

He may have a local B&N that's breaking street date, and it's true that WotC can't do much about that (they're not about to pull their books from the mass market), but what WotC can do is give local game stores a way to match or beat the B&N violations.

Also:



> At various Reknown totals, players gain the equivalent of encounter powers for their characters, above and beyond what they entitled to for their class, level, and magic items, and some of the highest Reknown rewards are awarded for using specific products.




Ha ha ha. OK, so here's the reward for getting 10 Reknown:

Benefit: Re-roll a Saving Throw against an effect 1/session.

Since each session is one encounter, that is indeed an encounter power. Not a game-breaking one. So OK; how long does it take to get 10 Reknown?



> Renown Point (RP) Awards
> 
> * accomplishment; maximum frequency; RPs awarded
> 
> ...




So the single biggest reward is for using the Character Builder. This is free, since we're talking level 1 characters here. The second biggest reward is for completing an encounter; you'll get that the first session. There's 8 points right there. If you did have the PHB3 in hand, you could hit 10 and get the reward card immediately. If not, you'll have to wait one more session to get the card. Horrors.

But what about the other rewards? Well, there are only two of them, at 30 points and 50 points, and they'll only be given out at the end of the season. So basically having the PHB3 gives you one extra session with a fairly minor power.

Since it's a 12 session season, anyone can reasonably easily get to 30 points -- it's 36 points from attendance alone. Go to the trouble of using the character builder, and you can get to 41 points. There are three chapters, and two milestones per chapter, so there's another 12 points. 53 points easily attainable without the PHB3. Note that the max you're getting from using PHB3 stuff is 3 points. Yeah, that's huge.

Oh, and you can't use more than one reward per session, and you have to pick the reward card you're using before the session starts.


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## Obryn (Mar 24, 2010)

That third post is the sort of gamer paranoia that has led me away from gaming stores.  I get enough of that online, thankyouverymuch.  Heck; I remember being told very clearly by a game store owner that a return of Greyhawk was imminent in the late 3.5 days.

I also think it's odd that a store owner would complain about WotC's events promoting book sales while the consumer is _in their store, where the books are available for purchase._  Or, why they wouldn't welcome a (free!) event, advertised by and paid for by WotC, where they will also presumably get both more foot traffic and more sales as a result.  Or, how an early release of books to hobby stores could be anything other than an attempt to maintain a vital environment of hobby stores.  I just don't get it.   The Chicken Little thing is no more convincing coming from an anonymous shop-owner than it is any other random gamer online.

-O


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## knifie_sp00nie (Mar 24, 2010)

Gotta wonder about the guy being in Michigan, which has Detroit hanging around the state's neck. That can't help business.

I was in my local game store this weekend (Austin, TX) and it was packed. Can't say how much people were buying, but there was usually someone at the register.


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## Insight (Mar 24, 2010)

When I was at D&D Encounters, the game store ran out of PHB3.  They had 12 on a table at the front of the store (along with the new tiles and something else, forget what) when I got there and less than 2 hours later, all 12 had sold.  The store let one player use their DDI subscription to make a character and he liked it so much, he said he'd purchase a subscription when he got home.  They were doing Encounters for free, BTW.


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## UniversalMonster (Mar 24, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> Well, if the OSR can, so can the 800 pound gorilla.
> 
> Seriously, around 2007-2008 WotC put out huge budgets for people volunteering to found D&D-specific university clubs. I think they ought to look into a similar program, if at vastly less scale (i.e. less budget), for high schools.




The Takoma Park (which happens to be local to me) after school D&D program is the longest running program in the area. It's using AD&D1e because it has always used that set of rules and that's the books the library bought. The guys that run it aren't going to change it. 

That said, it has _absolutely nothing whatsoever_ to do with the OSR, nor are any of the children involved "grognards" by any stretch of the imagination. 

It's a great program and so far, ideology free.


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## Cadfan (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't really know or care about the third post.

But the first two I can relate to.  I'm a bit sympathetic to the first post's worry about the changing relation of gamers and game stores.  I understand that WotC basically has no public relations choice but to point out the positives, and that there are in fact some positives, but I'm a little pessimistic about the general health of gaming stores as a whole if they remain straight retail.

Basically, this guy is completely right about the gaming store functioning more as an "order taker" than a retail store.  That is precisely how I use my local gaming store.  I know what I want far in advance of it being available, or alternately what I want is a product that I would have to order and pay shipping on, and I'd rather have someone else handle the hassle.  The gaming store probably has no clue about the product I want.  Often they don't even know it exists.  Essentially they take the order from me and then turn around and try to find out if or when their distributor will have the product in question.  They then obtain the product, and call me when its available.

This means that I care about the following things from my gaming store:

1. Breadth of selection from their distributors.
2. Response time between requesting something and receiving it.
3. Customer service and follow up in contacting me once the product is in the store.  Most stores fail horribly at this.
4. A meeting place for other consumers of the same product, if in fact that is relevant for the particular item.  For example, I care about being able to play Infinity at my gaming store.  I don't care about being able to play D&D there because I already have a group.  I don't care about finding other miniature painters because that's a hobby I do on my own.  I don't care about finding other boardgamers because I already have a group for that.

I don't care about the following things:

1. Inventory actually on the shop floor when I walk into the store.  I already know what I want.  Browsing can be fun, but I can almost guarantee that I'm not going to make a purchased based on browsing.  I probably already know about the miniatures, and I'm not going to buy a game book without reading up on it online.
2. Atmosphere, although I could have my mind changed on this if I found a game I needed to play at the store itself.  There's a boardgame store in my area that's managed to make atmosphere a selling point, but I don't know if that would be possible with an rpg and miniature store.  Not for me and my preferences, which tend towards buying the product, leaving, and painting alone or playing the RPG with my friends.
3. A knowledgeable staff.  I only care whether they're knowledgeable about what I consider to be their job, ie, finding and obtaining things I want to buy in a timely manner.

Honestly, if I found a really good online retailer, I'd probably stop going to gaming stores completely.  The problem for me is that its just annoying going to a half dozen different sites in order to get one miniature from this company, two from that company, two more from overseas, a new paintbrush from yet another company, and paints from one more.  

Anyways, yeah.  The idea that the gaming store has changed from a place to find information and purchase products from the shelves into a place to make orders is one that really struck home for me.

Oh, and yeah, the DDI makes books obsolete for me.  Sorry, stores.


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Mar 24, 2010)

*Interesting Post*

My takes:

1) It isn't clear to me how important it is to the hobby that specialty retailers survive.  It's ironic that they guys complains about hosting game day;  hosting planned events is pretty much the only value that gaming stores provide me these days.  My interface with the retailer is their website;  my interface with the community is gaming boards and my network of friends.

2) What would it take to get Wizards of the Coast sold off?  Now, that's a project I could get behind.

Ken


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## DEFCON 1 (Mar 24, 2010)

knifie_sp00nie said:


> Gotta wonder about the guy being in Michigan, which has Detroit hanging around the state's neck. That can't help business.
> 
> I was in my local game store this weekend (Austin, TX) and it was packed. Can't say how much people were buying, but there was usually someone at the register.




Marcus King has a regular monthly column at RPG.net called "Behind The Counter"... where he talks about all types of his experiences in the retail gaming business.  It really is fascinating to see all the stuff he has and continues to go through in order to maintain his stores.  If you're really interested in how your Friendly Neighborhood Gaming Store is trying to remain on its feet... check his columns out.  Goodness knows every time I have the fleeting thought about how "cool" it'd be to own a gaming store... reading several of his posts snaps me out of that thought straight away.  His is a sobering look at the realities of trying to make a store work in this day and age.


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## Thanlis (Mar 24, 2010)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Marcus King has a regular monthly column at RPG.net called "Behind The Counter"... where he talks about all types of his experiences in the retail gaming business.  It really is fascinating to see all the stuff he has and continues to go through in order to maintain his stores.  If you're really interested in how your Friendly Neighborhood Gaming Store is trying to remain on its feet... check his columns out.  Goodness knows every time I have the fleeting thought about how "cool" it'd be to own a gaming store... reading several of his posts snaps me out of that thought straight away.  His is a sobering look at the realities of trying to make a store work in this day and age.




And balance that sucker out with the Black Diamond Games blog.


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## Windjammer (Mar 24, 2010)

Cadfan said:


> Basically, this guy is completely right about the gaming store functioning more as an "order taker" than a retail store.




This is the part I don't get fully. I understand that the experience he relates and which you confirm is very real for some people. I wonder though how far it generalizes. See, the FLGS owners I've come to know in Germany and the UK over the years had more of a_ second hand car salesmen _attitude. They perfectly knew that I was more informed than them about products I already wanted - so they capitalized on hooking me onto product I had literally no idea about before entering their store. Product they easily knew more about than me.

It's true that most RPG'ers are creatures of loyalty to their game of choice. So what you do as a retailer is to expand the number of those loyalties.


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## ki11erDM (Mar 24, 2010)

The last time I went into my local game store was for the PH2 game day event… and they asked me “what is a game day event?” : (

Up to that point I had been splitting all my book purchases between online and in store… I don’t bother with that any more.

I can’t even imagine what they would say if I asked about the Encounters…


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## Festivus (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't see a lot of what they are complaining about with our FLGS.  They ordered EXTRA copies of PHB3 after they sold out of their initial order, our gameday events are some of the best business days for the FLGS in terms of 4E book sales, we always fill up the special events, and we have six or seven encounter tables, all full.  The premiere program has driven a ton of business his way and he's very happy about it.

4E books have been a boon for them, and very likely will continue to be.  The influx of 3.x books for trade for 4E books has been on the uptake too, so much so that they don't offer as much in trade for them as he used to.  I for one, see more and more people coming to our events who used to play in the late 70's early 80's, saw the you tube video of the robot chicken guys and decide to come in.  I am unsure about the new direction with the red box starter set (there is a starter set already, and you can get most of the rules from the free download now)... but nothing takes the place of sitting down and having someone show you how to play the game.  

The complaint about the person making a phb1 rogue and a phb3 shardmind psion struck me as funny, because I couldn't create a week 1 shardmind psion with the character builder because you can't do it yet... so I earned 8 RP, same as the person with the human rogue and earned 5rp for using a CB character, and 3 for finishing the encounter.

I look forward to more and more retail support from WoTC.  I also continue to purchase the bulk of my books at the FLGS, as well as games, because I find it a valuable resource.  The employees are all very knowledgable about EVERY product they sell, they are courteous, clean, and the store is nicely arranged.


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## Henry (Mar 24, 2010)

Insight said:


> When I was at D&D Encounters, the game store ran out of PHB3.  They had 12 on a table at the front of the store (along with the new tiles and something else, forget what) when I got there and less than 2 hours later, all 12 had sold.




I bought my PH3 two weeks ago at a Local Game store, just before playing in a Con there. They were holding the PH3 Gameday the next week. I couldn't find it at any Barnes & Noble in town.


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## ProtoClone (Mar 24, 2010)

knifie_sp00nie said:


> Gotta wonder about the guy being in Michigan, which has Detroit hanging around the state's neck. That can't help business.
> 
> I was in my local game store this weekend (Austin, TX) and it was packed. Can't say how much people were buying, but there was usually someone at the register.




Well those of us who live here in Michigan, specifically West Michigan where Marcus's stores are located as am I, Detroit has some effect on us but not a whole lot.  We here in W-Mi are more effected by companies like Pfizer on this side of the state.

But all-in-all, Michigan is just in a bad spot with or without Detroit.  Detroit has been having problems for a while even before our economical downturn.


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## Cadfan (Mar 24, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> This is the part I don't get fully. I understand that the experience he relates and which you confirm is very real for some people. I wonder though how far it generalizes. See, the FLGS owners I've come to know in Germany and the UK over the years had more of a_ second hand car salesmen _attitude. They perfectly knew that I was more informed than them about products I already wanted - so they capitalized on hooking me onto product I had literally no idea about before entering their store. Product they easily knew more about than me.
> 
> It's true that most RPG'ers are creatures of loyalty to their game of choice. So what you do as a retailer is to expand the number of those loyalties.



Yeah, I can see that.  Its just that I don't give them much of an opportunity to try that on me.  I don't need multiple RPGs, and in any case I'm likely to spend some time on rpg.net reading up on them before making a purchase- so at best the retailer could direct me to something new and then, if he's lucky, I'll buy it on my next visit.

The only time a gamestore has been able to convince me to buy something new has been the boardgame store up north of here.  They have "game days" where lots of people come in and play games, most of which are provided by the store.  In that case I purchased a new game after seeing it in the store, but I was able to play the game twice before I had to make that decision, so I knew I liked it.  The more typical experience, even there, is to try the game out and then go home and think about it for a while.

They actually have a really good model to keep their customers purchasing items from them instead of online.  1/10th of the purchase cost is given back to you in the form of store credit.  But if you use the store credit you don't get any store credit on the particular purchase you just made.  So its really easy to tell yourself that you'll just take the store credit on the 50 dollar game you just bought, and eventually you have quite a large amount of it lying around.  Plus attendance at the game day events has a $10 cost, but includes pizza and pop, and gives you $5 in store credit at the end of the day- a perfect recipe for convincing you to buy a game you tried and liked as you walk out of the door.

But that's just the boardgame store.  For miniatures and rpgs the other store I go to provides little more than a hub at which I can ask them to purchase items for me, and I'm not sure if it would be possible for it to mean more.


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## amysrevenge (Mar 24, 2010)

Festivus said:


> I don't see a lot of what they are complaining about with our FLGS.  They ordered EXTRA copies of PHB3 after they sold out of their initial order, our gameday events are some of the best business days for the FLGS in terms of 4E book sales, we always fill up the special events, and we have six or seven encounter tables, all full.  The premiere program has driven a ton of business his way and he's very happy about it.




From the small amount of first- and second-hand access to retailers' internal discussions that I have, I think that the relative success/failure of 4E, and of these event-driven sales, is about 95% attributable to the attitude of the FLGS owner/staff toward 4E and, to a lesser degree, the official Organized Play initiative.

It seems that enthusiastic early adopters of 4E have had their expectations met with huge sales and big successful in-store events.  Meanwhile, grudging 4E haters have had _their_ expectations met with lackluster sales and ghost-town events.


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## Mark (Mar 24, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> This is the part I don't get fully.





This seems to have been misread.  _Distributors_ are being described as order takers, not game stores (or retailers).  The game store owner (who is a _retailer_, btw) is saying that information comes from elsewhere and he simply places orders with distributors rather than relying on them for information.



> Distributors are more often now concentrating on the "order taking operations."


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## Dannager (Mar 24, 2010)

amysrevenge said:


> From the small amount of first- and second-hand access to retailers' internal discussions that I have, I think that the relative success/failure of 4E, and of these event-driven sales, is about 95% attributable to the attitude of the FLGS owner/staff toward 4E and, to a lesser degree, the official Organized Play initiative.
> 
> It seems that enthusiastic early adopters of 4E have had their expectations met with huge sales and big successful in-store events.  Meanwhile, grudging 4E haters have had _their_ expectations met with lackluster sales and ghost-town events.



I think this only reinforces the notion that a proactive, enthusiastic salesperson will produce better sales than a reluctant, disillusioned one.

Enthusiasm > Distaste


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## Windjammer (Mar 24, 2010)

Mark said:


> This seems to have been misread.  _Distributors_ are being described as order takers, not game stores (or retailers).  The game store owner (who is a _retailer_, btw) is saying that information comes from elsewhere and he simply places orders with distributors rather than relying on them for information.




Thanks for clearing this up! Yes, I'm still very bad at getting my head round the 3-tier model (publisher, distributor, retailer) and reliably miss its subtleties when it's brought up in a debate. Last time was triggered by an interesting post by Ryan Dancey here (July 2009), which I excerpt:



			
				Ryan Dancey said:
			
		

> James actually glosses over one of the biggest problems with the economics of the gaming industry, which is the discount structure.
> Most pubilshers offer a discount of 60% >OFF< SRP to their wholesalers.  That's right; the publshers get $0.40 for every $1 of retail price.  This is a pricing structure that is insane.  In most retail businesses, an extremely good margin is called a "keystone" margin, and it's 50% off of SRP.  When Hasbro or Mattel sells to Wal*Mart, the discount is closer to 30% off of SRP.  Why in the world do we have an industry where 60% of the value of the products is captured by the distributors and the retailers?
> A long time ago, 10 years or more, the industry had a different margin structure.  The discounts to wholesalers were in the 50% range.  Over time, the distributors were able to negotiate lower and lower discounts, because the publishers at the time were weak.  Now, any discussion of changing the discount structure imperils the entire 3-tier hobby gaming channel.  If the margins were "right sized" tomorrow, the remaining holdouts in the hobby retail teir would be destroyed.  That catastrophe is judged worse than suffering with an insane discount structure.
> Instead what is happening is that pubishers are finding more and more ways to "go direct" and get around the channel.  They are all hoping that they can find a viable alternate distribution system before the brick & mortar retail tier dies.  Think of it this way - if Wizards could get the full price for a D&D book, they could cut the price IN HALF and make the same amount of money.





It's that thought which recently caused me to speculate whether wizards.com, like paizo.com, will ever offer a direct sales model on their webpage, i.e. an online store.


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## EnochSeven (Mar 24, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> As a seller of 4E books, I can tell you that sales have dropped dramatically for new books. The first 60 days of sales of _Martial Powers 2_ was well under half the comparable sales of _Martial Powers 1_, and whereas I used to bring in a dozen or more copies of each new book for opening week, I am now bringing in no more than half a dozen.
> ----------------------------------




Some of this is easily explained by the amazing continued growth of Amazon.com.  I want to support my local store, but honestly he is a Magic guy and I have a hard time when I can save so much.


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## Herschel (Mar 24, 2010)

The third "post" is just pointless whining and not really my problem. The first two are pretty interesting though and something I've discussed often with friends. It is difficult because too many people do only equate value with selling price.


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## Mark (Mar 24, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> It's that thought which recently caused me to speculate whether wizards.com, like paizo.com, will ever offer a direct sales model on their webpage, i.e. an online store.





DDI is a direct sales model for material that was previously sold through retailers (among other things).


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## Joshua Randall (Mar 24, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> II did find it worthwhile to learn that retailers are currently forced to host WotC promotion events to get a bonus that online stores get for free - the possibility to sell new product as early as possible.



As others have pointed out, this is 100% false.

Also, taking the word of one person as representative of all retailers is credulous in the extreme.



Insight said:


> of these event-driven sales, is about 95% attributable to the attitude of the FLGS owner/staff toward 4E and, to a lesser degree, the official Organized Play initiative.



That has been my experience as well. As others have said -- it's pretty much that way in any sales-driven business. A good salesman sells more product. No mystery there.



Mark said:


> DDI is a direct sales model for material that was previously sold through retailers (among other things).



Excellent point.


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## Windjammer (Mar 24, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> As others have pointed out, this is 100% false.




Except it isn't. Two people on page 1 confirmed this. Thanlis wrote, "any game store that participates in organized play events gets to break street date now." 

Amazon has been breaking D&D street dates for years. Heck, the Gift Set was shipped early even to us people in the UK before June 6 in 2008.


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## Thanlis (Mar 24, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> Except it isn't. Two people on page 1 confirmed this. Thanlis wrote, "any game store that participates in organized play events gets to break street date now."
> 
> Amazon has been breaking D&D street dates for years. Heck, the Gift Set was shipped early even to us people in the UK before June 6 in 2008.




I can't speak to the UK, but Amazon absolutely doesn't break street dates in the US. I have heard that they break street dates in Japan. B&N online also does not break street dates. Books-A-Million broke street date on Divine Power and hasn't broke street date since that I'm aware of.


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## Obryn (Mar 24, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> Except it isn't. Two people on page 1 confirmed this. Thanlis wrote, "any game store that participates in organized play events gets to break street date now."
> 
> Amazon has been breaking D&D street dates for years. Heck, the Gift Set was shipped early even to us people in the UK before June 6 in 2008.



Not around here, it doesn't.  Neither Amazon nor any of my local retailers routinely break street date.  I've found exactly one WotC book before its official release date, and that was Open Grave at my local B&N.

The third guy claims this is somehow epidemic.  I don't think that's the case, given how flooded "I got the new book early!" threads can get.

-O


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## El Mahdi (Mar 24, 2010)

deleted


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## AngryMojo (Mar 24, 2010)

This is an argument I've seen multiple times by different stores.
Before I moved, there was a FLGS who ran events, was enthusiastic about 4e, and got people into the store to play.  I bought books from this store, even though it's cheaper to do it online.
Now, the FLGS grumbles about 4e, refuses to run games in the store, and complains that nobody comes in and he's going under.  I now buy my books online.
I can't stand whining.  There are solutions out there for the FLGS in response to online discounts.  Those that are doing something to get butts in the chairs and gaming done in their stores are doing well.  Those that grumble, complain, and start getting lazy about running events are going out of business.
If it's your store, stop whining and do something about it.


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 24, 2010)

amysrevenge said:


> From the small amount of first- and second-hand access to retailers' internal discussions that I have, I think that the relative success/failure of 4E, and of these event-driven sales, is about 95% attributable to the attitude of the FLGS owner/staff toward 4E and, to a lesser degree, the official Organized Play initiative.
> 
> It seems that enthusiastic early adopters of 4E have had their expectations met with huge sales and big successful in-store events.  Meanwhile, grudging 4E haters have had _their_ expectations met with lackluster sales and ghost-town events.



Even though it's just anecdotal, this is something I agree with.

Our local FLGS has been readily and enthusiastically supporting 4e since its release and the store has done well as a result.  It's also clean, has a friendly staff and participates in many, many Game Days and MtG tourneys, as well as Pokemon (I think) and Yu-Gi-Oh days.  They also have board game night and supports mini wargaming with Warhammer, WarMachine, etc...

They aren't on any side of the edition war either, stocking lots of Pathfinder and supporting Pathfinder Society organized play along side LFR.

These are the reasons they are doing well.  They GET IT.  They need to be active participants in the hobby, not just passive retails of RPG content.

The third quote in the OP sounded a lot like sour grapes to me as well.  "You mean that I should host these stupid game days to get a leg up on the competition?"*  

Yes! Duh!

* Not a real quote, a paraphrased example.


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## Stormonu (Mar 24, 2010)

My start with D&D was actually getting the books from Kaybee toy store and Toys'R'us back in the early 80's (Red box set & AD&D PHB,DMG respectively).  I was not aware of any game stores in the area where we were living (this was back in California).

Between about 88' to 01', I generally bought most of my stuff from a local FLGS in my area.  However, with the rise of Amazon and E-bay, I started moving to buying online.  At the same time, I don't think the hobby shop I went to has updated its stock; there's certainly nothing there now I would be interested in buying, and it doesn't have room to host games so I don't even bother going there anymore.  

I think that a large percentage of gamers are in the same boat I am - there simply isn't a close enough game store (or of decent quality) to be concerned with supporting it over to just having games mail-ordered to them and playing at home.


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 24, 2010)

El Mahdi said:


> Maybe something WotC can do would be to delay allow brick-and-mortar game stores the privilege of selling books a week earlier than the release date, but not extend the same privelege to on-line retailers. Or maybe WotC can develop more exclusive products or services they make available only from game stores - maybe print-on-demand Dragon and Dungeon magazines, exclusive miniatures, exclusive dungeon tiles, limited edition versions of books (leather bound, etc.)... I don't know if those specific ideas would work, I'm not a marketing guru, but I think WotC needs to come up with something. The extinction of brick-and-mortar game stores is not in WotC's best interest.



Actually, WOTC already does some of this.  If a FLGS hosts a premier event like the WWGD for PHB3, they get to sell the book like 10 days earlier than other retailers, including online retailers.

Our FLGS was selling PHB3, _legally_, almost 2 weeks before the street date.


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## El Mahdi (Mar 24, 2010)

deleted


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## Skallgrim (Mar 24, 2010)

I'd also like to point out something about Barnes & Noble and street dates.

First, I am a Barnes & Noble employee and have been for 13 years. I do know what I am talking about, when I am talking about that company.

There are "street dates", which are the dates that a company says a book will be released on.  

Then, there are "Strict On-Sale" dates. These are different, at least in their terminology and usage at B&N.

For a Strict On-Sale (SOS) date title, we have signed a contract with the publisher agreeing to not sell a particular title until a particular day that they specify. This is normally ONLY done when that title has massive sales potential (sadly not the case for most D&D books).  This is ALSO only done when all other retailers are also bound by the SOS date.  This allows the publisher of say, the latest Dan Brown novel, to ship it out to stores all over the nation early, and then they all hold it in their stockrooms until the SOS date, and all sell it on the same day.

I'm not going to pretend that no Barnes & Noble has ever violated a SOS date.  Heck, we've accidentally done it with a SOS title that shipped in a box with other non SOS titles ourselves.  However, it can have serious repercussions (the publisher can decide, for example, to withhold other new releases from your store for a period of time).  

Not a single D&D rulebook received since I started with the company has been a SOS title.

Now a "street date" is not such an agreement. A "street date" is simply the date that the publisher has told us that we should expect a book to be delivered on.  It might be delivered before that date. It might be delivered on that date, or even after that date. Places near the distributor might get it early, and other places late.  There is NO contractual agreement about breaking "street dates". 

Breaking a "street date" simply means you got the book before expected, and you put it out for sale. There's no dishonesty, no malice, and no incompetence.  Most books are put on sale when you get them. This is the default condition for books.

What WOTC did (which is very cool of them) is ship PHB3 to game stores that were holding D&D Encounter Events earlier than their other shipments. That way, these stores could get the book early, use it with their events, and capitalize on the sales. This is not uncommon at all in the Graphic Novel industry, where publishers may send books to dedicated comics retailers a month or more before they are available to B&N and other (even non-big box) book retailers. 

While this did hurt the sales of PHB3 in "my" department, I really support this sort of strategy. I frequent a local very friendly game store, and I always want to see them succeed. They are very focused on being a destination for gamers, and do a great job. 

I can't speak for any other bookstores, but I did want to try to correct the assumption that "breaking street date" = "breaking the rules". There are rules out there in the book business, but "street date" isn't one of them.


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## Dice4Hire (Mar 24, 2010)

I live in Japan and I would LOVE to have a local game store to support. When I go back, I frequent one store, which is not really very good. No play space (but lots of wasted space on never-changing used books) with a few comics, miniatures, dice and a decent array of RPG books.

It is a place to buy, not to hang around or play in, and that is something I do not like about it. 

To me a good store has a wide selection of goods, including things I do not personally play, and space to do events or just sit down and relax for a while. I can understand how owners hate getting undercut by Amazon and the like, and would strongly support WOTC selling to the online guys later, even though that would hurt me in Japan, where there is no other place to get the books and such I buy. But I would be willing to make that sacrifice. 

BTW, Amazon Japan does not sell things early at the moment, though they vary on that, For a lot of the Complete books in 3.5, they wild them weeks early (See my threads on those books from way back when) but with 4E, they well it after street date, so those who get to game stores or get review copies see it a lot earlier than I do.


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## Henry (Mar 25, 2010)

Skallgrim said:


> I'd also like to point out something about Barnes & Noble and street dates.
> 
> First, I am a Barnes & Noble employee and have been for 13 years. I do know what I am talking about, when I am talking about that company. (SNIP)




First of all, Skallgrim, thank you for posting this info - this is honestly the first time I've heard it explained.

Second, if you live in the Cary area, do we ever see you at any of the Raleigh NC Gamedays? If not, we'd love to see you there!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/north-carolina-game-day/


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## samursus (Mar 25, 2010)

My anecdotal experiences:

None of my Amazon.ca D&D 4e purchases have arrived early, and PHB3, though pre-ordered, did not even *SHIP* until the release date (got it Mon).  The FLGS I do go to rarely (out of town) has done very well since 4e, continually selling out of stock (straight from the owners mouth, and unfortunately in my own experience).  The only FLGS in town, I have no idea because they suck and frankly I would be surprised if they sold much of anything.

Regarding the downfall? of the B&M stores... do we really want to subsidize them?  I understand the value that many have mentioned, but that value has to be self-evident and reflected in the values of their customer base.  All this tells me, for good or for ill, is that _MANY_ customers just don't find enough value in the B&M experience to warrant paying a lot more for their RPG needs.  

Who are we to judge whether its a good or bad thing?  It is what it is, a reality based on  existing practices.  I think the B&M gaming stores will survive, many will fall, but a few here and there will survive, and thats where you will find your answers.  Only the best will remain, and do we really need the others to?  Yes it would be nice if every town had a great FLGS: clean, friendly, great selection, decent prices, no edition bias.  But I know  that even though my LGS sucks, I will most likely always be able to at least get the books I want at a great price from a business that has treated me right.  So what if its online?


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## The Little Raven (Mar 25, 2010)

Wow. That third post fails on so many levels.

And it's "renown," with no K.


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## Dire Bare (Mar 25, 2010)

amysrevenge said:


> From the small amount of first- and second-hand access to retailers' internal discussions that I have, I think that the relative success/failure of 4E, and of these event-driven sales, is about 95% attributable to the attitude of the FLGS owner/staff toward 4E and, to a lesser degree, the official Organized Play initiative.
> 
> It seems that enthusiastic early adopters of 4E have had their expectations met with huge sales and big successful in-store events.  Meanwhile, grudging 4E haters have had _their_ expectations met with lackluster sales and ghost-town events.




This has been my experience as well.  My local store supports Mt:G and Warhammer, and they regularly host game events and have a nice play area.  When I'm in there playing, I often pick up some cards or some new minis because I'm having fun, the store is being good to me, and well, its right there!  Even though I know I can get the Warhammer minis online cheaper (not so much the cards, though).

But for whatever reason, the store doesn't really promote D&D.  Haven't talked to the owner or any of the employees about it, but they have one large shelf crammed full of used stuff, and two spin displays filled with D&D 4e and a mix of other current RPG games.  No D&D Encounters, no D&D Game Days, not even Free RPG Day!  Surprisingly, I purchase most of my D&D books online at a discount.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 25, 2010)

I shop at several game stores in the D/FW Metroplex, and they often have game books for sale sooner than some of the big national/international sellers.  I've also noticed that, for some reason, D/FW seems to get stuff sooner than some other _cities_- I had my pre-ordered 3.5 set in hand more than a month before my buddy in Boston could find it at all.

Talking to some of the owners, I've found that they really do appreciate being able to do this.  Its one of the few advantages they have, these days.

Those that can host gaming events do so, and when they do, they tend to make sales.  However, some simply don't have the room, or do so at the sacrifice of breadth or depth of stock.

For example, I was recently recommended a store in Lewisville (one of Dallas' many suburbs).  I went in, and found the staff to be knowledgeable and helpful.  They were hosting some kind of combat minis game tournament at the time.

All well and good- demos and tournaments are great for sales, generally speaking- but their actual stock was slim.

Sure, they could ORDER anything I wanted (so they claimed) but if I wanted to buy anything beyond a few different minis lines or 4Ed D&D and a couple of other RPGs- really only a smallish bookshelf's worth- I surely couldn't get it there that day.

Still, the quality of service and the environment (coupled with what I suspect to be a fairly low rent) may keep them solvent.

The scary thing about that for me, though, is this: I've seen several tiny stores like this, and every one shares two qualities.  First, their quality of service is high.  Second, their in-store selection is limited to 4ED D&D and maybe 3-5 other RPGs, plus some cards, minis wargames and board games.    They're almost WotC stores.

IOW, D&D is probably their major seller...and if that game's popularity wanes significantly, it could be hard for them to remain open.


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## Dragon Snack (Mar 25, 2010)

Dragon Snack Games has been open for a little over a year now.  That's new in game store terms, but since the average game store apparently only lasts 18 months, I'm getting close to being a veteran.

My 4E sales stink, I've tried having groups run games in my store and I even sell it at 20% off.  I can't even find a DM for Encounters (at least not until April 14th).  It's Magic that keeps my doors open.  No, I don't play 4E, but I didn't play Magic until after I was running events last year and I still rarely do (surprised everyone by playing FNM last month for the foil).  I sell lots of video games (more than D&D books) too, which I certainly don't play (even if I wanted to, I don't have time).

It may be alien to most of you, but people will pay a premium to support a LGS they like.  I still think it's odd when it happens too, but it does.

FWIW, game stores get D&D books *10 days* early if they have a Core or Advanced level organizer.  Doesn't even need to be for D&D, I got my PHB3's 10 days early (before I signed up for Encounters) thanks to my Magic events.



Skallgrim said:


> I'd also like to point out something about Barnes & Noble and street dates.
> 
> First, I am a Barnes & Noble employee and have been for 13 years. I do know what I am talking about, when I am talking about that company.
> 
> ...



Wow, totally explains why the book trade breaks street dates all the time (although I have to believe your PTB know they aren't supposed to, even without the contracts, because not all street dates are broken).  FWIW, if someone in the hobby channel breaks a street date they can get hammered just like you can with a SOS date.

So we're playing with 2 sets of rules.  Not that I couldn't figure that out, but that just cements it.  Do you mind if I quote your post on an industry board (if not, I'll paraphrase)?


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## Glyfair (Mar 25, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> I did find it worthwhile to learn that retailers are currently forced to host WotC promotion events to get a bonus that online stores get for free - the possibility to sell new product as early as possible.




I think this is not quite accurate.  My understanding is that the main change is that WotC is now allowing Premier Stores to sell product 11 days early.  The requirements to be considered a premier store have required running the various WotC prestige events (such as Worldwide D&D Gamedays) have been in place for over a year, at least.  There is just a bigger advantage to being a Premier store now.

Plus, that advantage will allow you to get product out there *before* the online stores, not at the same time.  Very few online stores have the product two weeks in advance (in fact, most of the street date breakers have been brick and mortar stores outside the US, IIRC).

I will note that I was in my local Premiere store the week before the "official" release date for the PHB III.  I picked up Hammerfast and was told about the change.  He also mentioned they were very surprised to have sold out of the PHB III within a couple of days.


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## Glyfair (Mar 25, 2010)

Thanlis said:


> You could get it from local game stores a couple of weeks early, because any game store that participates in organized play events gets to break street date now.



My understanding is that it is not that simple.  My other FLGS is not a premiere store.  He was years ago, but stopped because it was a big headache.  You have to take pictures of the area, have a certain number of permanent tables set up as a play area (he is also a bookstore and the gaming area multi-tasks especially during his regular book signings).  

Of course, when I told him about the street date advantage he was musing that it might be worthwhile to re-enroll in the premiere store program.


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## JohnSnow (Mar 25, 2010)

Where I live, there's 3 gaming stores of note within a half-hour drive that have been around for decades. Two blocks from one of them is another upstart. There's also plenty of bookstores and comic shops that ALSO sell D&D stuff.

Two of the old gaming shops get my business. Why? They're clean, well-lit, and staffed by nice, hygienic people with good customer service skills. The third...is not. The sad thing is that everyone (including the other two shop owners) knows it.

When it comes to D&D Encounters, the two "good" shops have "opted out" because it's on Wednesdays - their traditional night for boardgame play or _Warhammer Fantasy Battle._ This makes me tempted to give the other place a try just to get my playing fix (I'm usually the DM for my group), but I've had enough of he and his staff's surly attitude to never want to set foot in there again. And the sad part is he's probably one of the people who bitches and moans that 4e is a failure, because nobody's buying stuff at his store. And that's because (duh!) the guy's a dick. How? He's a typical old-school elitist gamer - the kind of person who drives people to bail on D&D rather than deal with the people who play it. They're hosting an Encounters game there (probably to boost flagging business), but that store has screwed the pooch so badly on customer service over the years, they'd probably be better off closing.

Down the street from him is a little startup place that operates as an internet cafe, but also hosts D&D (and other) games (and sells the products too), and is, by all accounts, a pretty friendly place. They're hosting D&D Encounters as well, but they're not starting until April.

By contrast, about an hour from where I live, there's a Barnes & Noble that is participating in D&D Encounters. It's clean, well-lit, and had a game start up on St. Patrick's Day. It's employees have also clearly bathed, not just this century, but this year!

And the FLGS's wonder why they're losing this war...


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## wedgeski (Mar 25, 2010)

This thread has been extremely educational. Thanks to everyone who has posted!


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## vagabundo (Mar 25, 2010)

You know FLGS's should hire smart, charasmatic, fun GMs to constantly run games in store, so most evenings there are games happening. Create a real fun atmosphere and people will spend. maybe even charge a fiver for a drop-in game. 

It is something that could really encourage gaming (and spending on gaming)- I notice the Games Workshop store in town always has tonnes of kids in the window, playing and painting, and it is always packed. This is a busy main street in Dublin.


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## Thanlis (Mar 25, 2010)

Skallgrim said:


> I'd also like to point out something about Barnes & Noble and street dates.




Thanks, that's excellent stuff!


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## Moltari (Mar 25, 2010)

amysrevenge said:


> From the small amount of first- and second-hand access to retailers' internal discussions that I have, I think that the relative success/failure of 4E, and of these event-driven sales, is about 95% attributable to the attitude of the FLGS owner/staff toward 4E and, to a lesser degree, the official Organized Play initiative.
> 
> It seems that enthusiastic early adopters of 4E have had their expectations met with huge sales and big successful in-store events.  Meanwhile, grudging 4E haters have had _their_ expectations met with lackluster sales and ghost-town events.




I can Totally Agree with Big Mike on this one. in Calgary there's a little shop called Myth Gaming, while their selection is smaller then one of the other HUGE hobby shops in calgary, i shop there for one reason.

the Staff at Myth Gaming is amazing, they're knowledgeable, polite, host play events, know release schedules for 4e, and other games i play. they provide a great atmosphere in store. atleast 1/3rd of their shop is set up as Play space for their costumers. they're very passionate about D&D 4E, and it shows, i went in last week to pick up a copy of PHB3 for my players and they'd sold out. i knew they'd ordered a fair amount of them too, so now i'm waiting for more to come in. 

personaly i think the store's enthusiasm for the products they sell, and they're ability to host in store events is what's attributed to the bulk of their product sales. i know the atmosphere and staff there have made me change where i shop. 

anyways, just my 2, rather jumbled and possibly disjointed, cents.


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## pawsplay (Mar 25, 2010)

I think it is worth considering that the dot-com bubble may have changed the hobby store in important ways. First, I think excess geek cash led to a culture built on rapid sales of fad items, which is just not sustainable. I think, reasonably, a hobby store should plan to operate year-round primarily as a specialty retail store, with the occasion ka-boom when something big lands. Second, once upon a time, it was semi-acceptable to live your dream as a comic book store/game store/whatever guy. Since that time, the low end of the wage scale has slid considerably compared to the rest of the economy; what was once not a livable income is now barely an income. An adjustment to minimum wage has probably helped. What has happened, I think, is that those devotees have realized they can now live their dreams making some serious bank in computers, autocad, game design, e-commerce, etc. Thus, it is likely the only long term industry person working at the store is the owner, and maybe the general manager if there is one. To be successful, a modern game store has to be a fairly person-centered operation, since there is no feasible way I can imagine to hold onto truly knowledgeable staff with good people skills. Instead, the owner/manager has to be the heart of the things, dispensing needed knowledge, constantly retraining staff as they graduate from school/move away/sell out to the Man, etc. I think in a fairly populous area, during a good economy, you could probably staff a couple of dudes at a nice hourly wage and it would totally be worth it from a business standpoint. Sadly, I think the current economic climate dictates holding onto less staff and toughing things out for the next year or two. Eventually, the death of retail stores will create new regions for growth... a good game and comic store could sprout up somewhere between where an old Waldenbooks and another dead game store used to be. when times are bad, you have to expect the likelihood of some creative destruction before things got better.


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## JohnSnow (Mar 25, 2010)

vagabundo said:


> You know FLGS's should hire smart, charasmatic, fun GMs to constantly run games in store, so most evenings there are games happening. Create a real fun atmosphere and people will spend. maybe even charge a fiver for a drop-in game.
> 
> It is something that could really encourage gaming (and spending on gaming)- I notice the Games Workshop store in town always has tonnes of kids in the window, playing and painting, and it is always packed. This is a busy main street in Dublin.




Agreed!

My wife has frequently commented that it probably wouldn't hurt to hire a bunch of hot friendly nerd-girls (and believe me, they exist) as sales people. And not to play to stereotypes, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea.

I also find myself reminded of Virtual World, which was probably just ahead of its time when they opened back in the mid-90s. Back then, they had to spend lots (and I mean LOTS!) of money on the network to allow full motion video-gaming over the net. Nowadays, you could just set up a bunch of X-Boxes (or other Videogame system) for cheap and focus entirely on the environment. Of course, VW was all about Video games, but there's not really any reason you couldn't do both.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 25, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> No play space (but lots of wasted space on never-changing used books) with a few comics, miniatures, dice and a decent array of RPG books.




As an MBA with a degree in Economics, that is something that has always bugged me.  Retailers: if you have stock that simply isn't selling, you're better off getting rid of it as soon as possible- even if it means moving it into a storage building- and replacing that stuff with merchandise you can move.  All you're doing by shuffling old merch around the store is using your retail space as high-dollar storage while conveying an image of stasis.  A store whose inventory doesn't change over time may be perceived as stagnant.


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Mar 25, 2010)

*My opinion*

The main thing I see is that retail bookstores/game stores no longer serve an essential function.  

It's 100 times more convenient for me to have a Paizo adventure path and chronicles subscription than it is to drive down to the game store.  And I find time spent talking with James Jacobs on the Paizo forums to be more interesting and educational than time talking with bob the store clerk at my local FLGS.

On top of that, buying online is cheaper, and more of my money is going to the producers of what I am buying.  I'm cutting out two middlemen -- the distributor and the game store. 

And coming down the road I see devices like the iPad making PDFs of products I buy an absolute requirement for me.  I automatically get a free PDF of everything Paizo ships me.  How can a game store give me this?

Ken


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## pawsplay (Mar 25, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> As an MBA with a degree in Economics, that is something that has always bugged me.  Retailers: if you have stock that simply isn't selling, you're better off getting rid of it as soon as possible- even if it means moving it into a storage building- and replacing that stuff with merchandise you can move.  All you're doing by shuffling old merch around the store is using your retail space as high-dollar storage while conveying an image of stasis.  A store whose inventory doesn't change over time may be perceived as stagnant.




Counterpoint. Walking into a game store and catching a whiff of all that old paper and seeing game after game lined up is what keeps me coming back. As decorations go, reams of product that isn't worth very much is actually pretty cheap. Now, true, if you have multiple copies of old d20 books, sure, hide one or two in the back and clearance the rest. There's no sense in storing stuff just to store it. But the experience of shopping in a good specialty store is greater than the sum of its inventory.


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## JohnSnow (Mar 25, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Counterpoint. Walking into a game store and catching a whiff of all that old paper and seeing game after game lined up is what keeps me coming back. As decorations go, reams of product that isn't worth very much is actually pretty cheap. Now, true, if you have multiple copies of old d20 books, sure, hide one or two in the back and clearance the rest. There's no sense in storing stuff just to store it. But the experience of shopping in a good specialty store is greater than the sum of its inventory.




Counterpoint deuce. If you're looking for atmosphere, you can do a whole lot better than plyboard shelving covered in shrink-wrapped gaming product. For example, since most gamers are fantasy/sci-fi geeks, designing your game shop with a tavern atmosphere might be very welcoming.

Hell, there's a part of me that thinks designing a gameshop that IS a tavern might be the smartest move of all. But it would require some creative thinking and a sharp direction so as not to lose focus. The multiple revenue streams might be a very good idea - IF you could avoid losing focus by essentially running 2 (or 3) businesses under one roof.


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## jcfiala (Mar 25, 2010)

Here in Denver, 4E is doing pretty well that I can see.  

For example, they're running Encounters down at one shop named 'Enchanted Grounds' (which also sells coffee -mmmm) and they're running four tables a night, two at 5 and two at 7... and now turning people away because they don't have the room.

I bought the PHB 3 for full price from a store so I could make a Psion - I wanted a telekinetic one, and the character builder only has the telepathic options.

Encounters, by the way, is a great idea so far - my wife and I are enjoying taking a break during the week to do a little D&D - but not so much that we don't have time to get home, relax, and then get to bed at a reasonable hour.  And so far EG has sold us four coffee drinks and will no doubt be selling us some games soon.


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## jaerdaph (Mar 25, 2010)

*Just to make this thread a little more fun and lively...*

Louis Porter, Jr. has weighed in on the subject at his blog:

In the Mind of a Mad Man!!!: Sounds like Marcus King is trying to make excuses for RPG retailers' lack of sales

I'm not exactly sure, but I think LPJ is doing that thing he did with Joe Goodman again - disagreeing with him... by agreeing with him. 



All kidding aside, that video of his friend's store he has linked is pretty cool and informative.


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## JohnSnow (Mar 25, 2010)

jcfiala said:


> Here in Denver, 4E is doing pretty well that I can see.
> 
> For example, they're running Encounters down at one shop named 'Enchanted Grounds' (which also sells coffee -mmmm) and they're running four tables a night, two at 5 and two at 7... and now turning people away because they don't have the room.




Hmm...interesting. The place I'd like to go for D&D Encounters (which is doing it) is another game/coffee shop in Berkeley, CA. It's called Eudemonia. The only sad part is they're running the game not on Wednesdays, but on Tuesday or Monday. And they're starting "late." The Tuesday game isn't starting until March 30th, and the Monday game starts April 5th. I suspect it might have something to do with another, older, shop 2 blocks away doing it as well.

I wonder if there's something to be said for all these coffee/game shops. Even one of the Barnes & Nobles in my area is hosting a D&D Encounters game. Coincidence? Or trend? Maybe game shops need coffee areas as much as bookstores do...


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Mar 25, 2010)

95%+ of my gaming purchases are now made on-line or from the local used book store.  Reason is simple, I'm cheap and the FLGS doesn't try too hard to get my business.

The last time I went into the FLGS was on a whim looking for the Shadows Over Camelot Expansion.  I was told that if I didn't know the title, I was out of luck.  I went home, googled, and purchased the item in less then 2 minutes.

The last I purchased and item from the FLGS was the Reaper Legendary Encounter pre-painted minis.  They were too cool to pass up.  I asked when these figures came out and what I could expect in the future from this line.  Blank expressions and shrugs all around.

So yeah, my FLGS isn't that helpful


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## Henry (Mar 25, 2010)

vagabundo said:


> You know FLGS's should hire smart, charasmatic, fun GMs to constantly run games in store, so most evenings there are games happening. Create a real fun atmosphere and people will spend. maybe even charge a fiver for a drop-in game.
> 
> It is something that could really encourage gaming (and spending on gaming)- I notice the Games Workshop store in town always has tonnes of kids in the window, playing and painting, and it is always packed. This is a busy main street in Dublin.




Only problem is the problem with all hiring -- the people most knowledgeable about the subject matter are also likely to be rather uncharismatic, and the most charismatic are likely unwilling to become very knowledgeable about the material. Local Gaming Stores need their own "Geek Squads" to go with the sales staff - otherwise its more likely to be like a software company getting their coders to sell the product.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 25, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Counterpoint. Walking into a game store and catching a whiff of all that old paper and seeing game after game lined up is what keeps me coming back.



I'm not talking about doing away with stocking things deep.  I'm talking about having portions of your store taken up by games and other merchandise you bought 3 years ago and haven't been able to sell.

Now, there are stores that do quite well by stocking OoP games, but they're set up to do so.  Gamers know to go there for those games, so they actually sell those games rather than merely store them.

But stuff that just sits there year after year, getting dusted and shifted around is just reducing your ability to make productive use of the space.


JohnSnow said:


> Hell, there's a part of me that thinks designing a gameshop that IS a tavern might be the smartest move of all. But it would require some creative thinking and a sharp direction so as not to lose focus. The multiple revenue streams might be a very good idea - IF you could avoid losing focus by essentially running 2 (or 3) businesses under one roof.




"You all meet in a inn..."


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## jaerdaph (Mar 25, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> "You all meet in a inn..."




That settles it. My next d20 Modern game is going to start in a FLGS. 

"You all meet in a FLGS... on Geek Singles night."


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 25, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Counterpoint. Walking into a game store and catching a whiff of all that old paper and seeing game after game lined up is what keeps me coming back.



I'm not talking about doing away with stocking things deep.  I'm talking about having portions of your store taken up by games and other merchandise you bought 3 years ago and haven't been able to sell.

Now, there are stores that do quite well by stocking OoP games, but they're set up to do so.  Gamers know to go there for those games, so they actually sell those games rather than merely store them.

But stuff that just sits there year after year, getting dusted and shifted around is just reducing your ability to make productive use of the space.


JohnSnow said:


> Hell, there's a part of me that thinks designing a gameshop that IS a tavern might be the smartest move of all. But it would require some creative thinking and a sharp direction so as not to lose focus. The multiple revenue streams might be a very good idea - IF you could avoid losing focus by essentially running 2 (or 3) businesses under one roof.




"You all meet in a inn..."


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## Dire Bare (Mar 25, 2010)

JohnSnow said:


> Agreed!
> 
> My wife has frequently commented that it probably wouldn't hurt to hire a bunch of hot friendly nerd-girls (and believe me, they exist) as sales people. And not to play to stereotypes, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea.




I've actually encountered two different stores that did just that (on purpose or not, I don't know) over the years . . . and yes, it did work.  Store always seemed more crowded when hot geek girl was on shift!


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## darjr (Mar 25, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> on Geek Singles night."




Now there is an idea that someone should pickup on. WotC?


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Mar 25, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I'm not talking about doing away with stocking things deep.  I'm talking about having portions of your store taken up by games and other merchandise you bought 3 years ago and haven't been able to sell.




[Eddie Izzard]AND THIS GAMING MATERIAL HERE IS WELL OVER 3 YEARS OLD![/Eddie Izzard]

My FLGS has stuff on the shelves that is easily 35 years old that never sold. The owner is a friend and I've told him numerous times ove the last two decades I've known him to get rid of that stuff to no avail. He also won't make the effort to have anything to do with any modern gaming company. I don't know how he stays in business really (I think he lives in his store, basically so all his money just sinks into it). Too many gamers go into business and only have enthusiasm for the games they enjoy instead of being enthusiastic about all of their product. I have two FLGS' to compare and the one that runs gamedays and other events in their devoted space is always much busier.


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## darjr (Mar 25, 2010)

This is a great thread, that store and video tour are fantastic. I'll have to show my FLGS owners.

I'm a mixed bag. I have a store  that has a ton of older material, lots of odd ball stuff mixed in. I love that store and all that stuff. I don't know how he does it. I also have a store that doesn't do that, really only newer stuff on the shelves. They both seem to be doing good and have traffic and a community.

I like both, my ideal store would do both but separate them some how. Maybe they should collaborate.


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## Festivus (Mar 25, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> That settles it. My next d20 Modern game is going to start in a FLGS.
> 
> "You all meet in a FLGS... on Geek Singles night."




This makes me wonder what the current fantasy roleplaying gamer demographics are, because I see a lot of ages 30+ married with kids folks, as well as single college student 20 somethings, with a smattering of under 20s at my meetups.


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## rogueattorney (Mar 25, 2010)

Windjammer said:


> This is the part I don't get fully. I understand that the experience he relates and which you confirm is very real for some people. I wonder though how far it generalizes. See, the FLGS owners I've come to know in Germany and the UK over the years had more of a_ second hand car salesmen _attitude. They perfectly knew that I was more informed than them about products I already wanted - so they capitalized on hooking me onto product I had literally no idea about before entering their store. Product they easily knew more about than me.
> 
> It's true that most RPG'ers are creatures of loyalty to their game of choice. So what you do as a retailer is to expand the number of those loyalties.




This is a great point.

Personally, I go into brick and mortar stores to see the used games.  Buying used games over the Internet can sometimes be a risky proposition as my idea of "fair condition and your idea of "fair" condition may not be the same thing.  So, getting used gaming materials at brick & mortar stores is a safer bet.  There are two local stores that have old stuff in stock.

The first place has no clue what the going price for used materials are and tends to price things way too high.  I tend to walk out of there empty handed.  The second place has no clue what the going price is for used materials and tends to price thing way too low.  I tend to walk out of there with arm loads of games.  

But the real difference between the two places is the guy behind the counter.  The first guy tends to be argumentative and not really helpful.  The second guy tends to be friendly and quite helpful, offering suggestions and pointing out new stuff I'm less familiar with.  So, in the second case, I'm not only walking out with armloads of old gaming stuff, but also new paints for my minis, new minis, a cool new card game my kids might like, etc., etc., etc.  

If the second guy takes the same approach with other focused gamers - i.e. he tries to turn on the Magic players to things like the Pirates constructable ship game, etc. - he probably does o.k.  The key isn't knowing more than your customer about the games your customer likes.  It's knowing enough about what your customers like to turn them on to other things.  That takes engaging your customers, listening to them, having a broad knowledge of similar interests, a good soft sell, and then being right often enough that the customers continue to come back.


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## Cadfan (Mar 25, 2010)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> [Eddie Izzard]AND THIS GAMING MATERIAL HERE IS WELL OVER 3 YEARS OLD![/Eddie Izzard]
> 
> My FLGS has stuff on the shelves that is easily 35 years old that never sold. The owner is a friend and I've told him numerous times ove the last two decades I've known him to get rid of that stuff to no avail. He also won't make the effort to have anything to do with any modern gaming company. I don't know how he stays in business really (I think he lives in his store, basically so all his money just sinks into it). Too many gamers go into business and only have enthusiasm for the games they enjoy instead of being enthusiastic about all of their product. I have two FLGS' to compare and the one that runs gamedays and other events in their devoted space is always much busier.



I can beat that.  I've been told that the reason that a gaming store wasn't going to restock a picked through supply of Reaper Miniatures was because they were having such a hard time selling the ones they already had.

Think about that a moment.

They bought a bunch of miniatures.  Half of them sold.  The remaining half sat on the shelf forever.  They aren't willing to restock the part that sold because of the slow sales of the part that hasn't sold.

Imagine if you had a sandwich shop, and you have supplies for 10 reubens and 10 tuna salad sandwiches.  You've sold 10 reubens, and 1 tuna salad.  You aren't willing to buy supplies for more reubens until the tuna salad is gone, so now you don't sell anything at all.

Sad.


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## jaerdaph (Mar 25, 2010)

Festivus said:


> This makes me wonder what the current fantasy roleplaying gamer demographics are, because I see a lot of ages 30+ married with kids folks, as well as single college student 20 somethings, with a smattering of under 20s at my meetups.




That's been my observation as well. This weekend in nearby Rochester, NY at the University of Rochester, there is a game convention run by students. I have some Cub Scout activities and a Blue & Gold dinner I have to attend with my nephews, but if I have time, I really want to swing by at least one day to check it out and see the local demographic. 

SIMCON Games Convention


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## JohnSnow (Mar 25, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> That's been my observation as well. This weekend in nearby Rochester, NY at the University of Rochester, there is a game convention run by students. I have some Cub Scout activities and a Blue & Gold dinner I have to attend with my nephews, but if I have time, I really want to swing by at least one day to check it out and see the local demographic.




This brings up a question. I think it's obvious to most of us that our hobby is aging, with many gamers in their 30s or later. I think there's some hope in younger players coming along as the offspring of these mature gamers, but the numbers of young gamers are pretty paltry at the moment. i do hear a fair amount about college games, but not a lot about high school or post college ones.

How many post-college single 20-somethings are playing RPGs? Certainly a lot of them are "gamers" in the sense that they play WoW, Magic, or the like. But how many are tabletop roleplayers? I certainly hadn't heard of a lot of games going in my circle of friends until the 4e-era started - and I work at the Renaissance Faire! That said, there still aren't many, but there's more than there used to be.

I guess the real question is whether the gaming industry has been catering to an ever-aging market? I certainly don't think it has been as easy to get into D&D from the mid-90s to the present as it was back in the Red Box days.

Does anyone here know a lot of single 20-something gamers?


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## Shemeska (Mar 25, 2010)

JohnSnow said:


> Does anyone here know a lot of single 20-something gamers?




Well, my entire gaming group is in their mid-late 20s (most started in 3e, one in 2e, none of us play 4e).

I'm one year past my 20s, alas.


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## billd91 (Mar 25, 2010)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> My FLGS has stuff on the shelves that is easily 35 years old that never sold.




Frankly, that sounds like it could be awesome ebay material if the stuff's any good or has any following on the nostalgia market.


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## Mallus (Mar 25, 2010)

re: demographics... my (currently 4e) group ranges between their mid-30s to early 40s. Two people are married with young children, three are childless but either married or in a long-term relationships, and one is single. I believe all but one of us started gaming with OD&D/AD&D.

And I also believe we all shop for RPG products online.


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## Storminator (Mar 25, 2010)

Cadfan said:


> I can beat that.  I've been told that the reason that a gaming store wasn't going to restock a picked through supply of Reaper Miniatures was because they were having such a hard time selling the ones they already had.
> 
> Think about that a moment.
> 
> ...




This one is particularly egregious, because Reaper has a pretty much free return policy. Return the unsold, get new stock dollar for dollar.

I think dead stock kills a lot of stores. Grocery stores make a healthy profit on tiny margins because everything turns over so quick that they can reinvest the money in new stock... that turns over quick.

My last FLGS went under because they didn't buy smart, and didn't discount stuff to make it sell. $5 in stock that sits on the shelf isn't as valuable to your business as $2 that sells at 10% profit every couple of weeks.

PS


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## jaerdaph (Mar 25, 2010)

Storminator said:


> I think dead stock kills a lot of stores. Grocery stores make a healthy profit on tiny margins because everything turns over so quick that they can reinvest the money in new stock... that turns over quick.




There are a lot of game stores I've seen out there holding on to old stock, especially stuff from the d20 glut era. Most won't mark it down either. Stores like that need to start thinking of their wasted floor and shelf space as money they are losing. They'd be better off dumping most of that old stock with massive in-store discounts, or selling it online at Ebay or through their own Web sites. Even if they lose money on what they paid for it, at least they can reclaim their valuable floor and shelf space back. 

The best game stores I've seen have some value-added that you can't get from the online purchasing experience. Table space to play is a big one.  Food and beverages, WiFi, computers with games and Internet access are all be cool too. They also need to branch out in what they sell - RPGs and supplies, board games, computer games,  and comics, for starters. Again, making the best use of the available space for maximum return.


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## Votan (Mar 25, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> There are a lot of game stores I've seen out there holding on to old stock, especially stuff from the d20 glut era. Most won't mark it down either. Stores like that need to start thinking of their wasted floor and shelf space as money they are losing. They'd be better off dumping most of that old stock with massive in-store discounts, or selling it online at Ebay or through their own Web sites.




I've seen a store with ancient stock (stuff that is 20 years old) and not marked down at all; pretty tragic.  Even worse, the good parts of the old stuff are long gone.  Modules for marvel superheroes or battletech are of limited use without the actual games being in stock -- especially of the most interesting and popular items are long gone!  

In that sense, used book stories are often better as they price older games based on market value which prevents a glut of the uninteresting.


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## jimmifett (Mar 25, 2010)

My wife and I used to get our stuff off of amazon simply because of price. About a year ago, we started getting our stuff from our flgs instead of amazon because the prices were similair, i didn't have to wait on shipping, and i met a nice large gaming group at the store and thus wanted to make sure my money keeps the environment going.

I've got 4 FLGS within about 30 minutes of me in the orlando area.
I only frequent one of them for DnD needs.

Store 1) Big mega gaming store. Everything you could ever want, all at full retail for most of it. They run a lot of 40k stuff. I go there for metal minis for the wife to paint and some older stuff. They also have anime and networked video games. Staff is mostly there to ring me up. It's the super market of gaming.

Store 2) Mostly a comic store with some nice out of print 3.5 stuff. I scooped up most of thier dungeon tile stock a while back. They run dnd encounters, but are a bit far and are in a part of town you wont catch me in at night.

Store 3) Small place in a shopping center. Looks to be mostly 40k and flames of war. I get my wife vallejo paints and some gale force 9 terrain stuff here. Small amount of DnD selection. Not very much room, staff are friendly enough, but not that engaging in my opinion. They just started dnd encounters.

Store 4) This is the store i go to for most of my rp needs. Nice amount of space (in fact, just moved to a bigger unit with even more space). Very friendly staff that are engaging and join in for rpga and other stuff. Most of the store is play area with some nice product display areas. Don't see something you want, check one of the in store computers and they get it for you from in back. This store looks to be a heavy MtG store, as you can find at least 1 or 2 full tables at any given time. I get my DnD stuff here with only pennies of difference between amazon prices, and i don't have to wait on shipping. I also get my wotc minis for dnd and star wars here, as they are significantly cheaper than anywhere else. They sell snacks and drinks at reasonable prices (and i'm sure there is a decent prfit on snacks and drinks). I both play and dm rpga lfr games there. Sadly, no DnD encounters as it conflicts with a wednesday board game night that is PACKED and wotc does not want to budge on wednesdays. And yes, they have a cute geek game girl as an employee. The groups of ppl i play with there are varied widely in age, from teens to those in their 50/60s. Some ppl have been mentioned trying to setup some pathfinder games, but there just isn't the interest from the players and no one seems to want to DM it. Myself, i'd like to run some Star Wars Saga Edition games.

As for the view that wizards is trying to drum up sales, good for them! Whether 4e is selling good or not (and i hope it is), it only makes sense bring in as many new faces as possible to your product.

I feel DnD Encounters is trying to add more people the community. Especially younger players. With the short attention span rug rats, it's hard to get them to stay focused for 4+ hours. I want to strangle my little brother whenever i DM him and his gf because they wont pay attention. With this being a single enounter, 1-2 hours, you have a better chance of hooking them. Hook them, they buy product, make money, which goes towards making more product, and everyone gains. You also have quick rewards via renown to keep them wanting more.

Additionally, if this program can drive business into a store, store owners have the opportunity to expose that player to other product. "Hi, did you enjoy the encounter? We offer a fine selection of DnD books, dice, game mats, etc if you need anything. You should also come check out our board game nights and CCG nights! I've got some starter sets that can get you right specifc into those CCG games as well! Why don't you bring some friends and try some of the board games we offer free to play? If you like it, why not get a copy for home!"

It's all about the upsell.

I was also hesitant about the direction wotc is taking for the essentials product line. But you know what, they are doing the right thing. The economy is tough, not going to get any easier any time soon, and everyone is tightening thier belts. If you can bundle your game in a cheaper fashion and make boxed sets with everything a small group will need to play cheaply, you are going to bring in new customers who would have walked away from the expensive 3 book core set. At a lower price point, parents are more inclined to give it a chance with their money. More new customers that you hook, your business unit stays alive and you get to make more products for your core audience.

"But they will loose my business bc i don't want n00b products".

Apparently they thought of that and are making sure the essentials have new material in them. Of course some people are just stubborn for stubborn's sake, and well, you can't please everyone(zomg, new edition, i have to buy all new books bc my old ones will cease to exist on launch day! Stupid evil corporation trying to make money while offering a new type of play experience! boooooo!).

What it basically boils down to: for some ppl, it's all about cost, which is perfectly fine when you are hurting for cash. For others, especially as one grows up, you learn that camaraderie, pleasent experiences, and mood are worth a little bit more of your hard earned money. If your store doesn't create such an environment, perhaps it should. A customer that feels welcomed will revisit. You don't need to be an expert on any given product, but you do need to help find what the customer is looking for or answer their questions.

-J


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## Mercurius (Mar 26, 2010)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> My FLGS has stuff on the shelves that is easily 35 years old that never sold.




You mean it has the original Dungeons & Dragons and Chainmail? Because that's the only RPG stuff that is "easily 35 years old". OK, I'm being facetious, although it is worth pointing out that the problem isn't the stuff 15+ years old, it is the stuff 5-15 years old, in particular old and unwanted OGL stuff (how many copies of Diomin are floating around out there? And why were so many printed in the first place?).

There is a simple solution that every successful retailer should know: discount table/bin. I won't buy Diomin for $19.95 (or whatever it cost), but I might shell $5 out for it, especially if nothing else suits my fancy.



JohnSnow said:


> This brings up a question. I think it's obvious to most of us that our hobby is aging, with many gamers in their 30s or later. I think there's some hope in younger players coming along as the offspring of these mature gamers, but the numbers of young gamers are pretty paltry at the moment. i do hear a fair amount about college games, but not a lot about high school or post college ones.
> 
> How many post-college single 20-somethings are playing RPGs? Certainly a lot of them are "gamers" in the sense that they play WoW, Magic, or the like. But how many are tabletop roleplayers? I certainly hadn't heard of a lot of games going in my circle of friends until the 4e-era started - and I work at the Renaissance Faire! That said, there still aren't many, but there's more than there used to be.
> 
> ...




I think that's more of a time-of-life thing: post-college 20-somethings are busy doing other things (going to clubs, dating, establishing careers). I would guess that the bulk of RPGers are either 12-21 or 30-45; that is, pre-teens and teenagers and Gen-Xers. yes,t here is a generation thing, and I would guess that there are less 12-21 year olds playing than there were twenty years ago, when Gen-X was 12-25 or so. But it isn't either/or.



Mallus said:


> re: demographics... my (currently 4e) group ranges between their mid-30s to early 40s. Two people are married with young children, three are childless but either married or in a long-term relationships, and one is single. I believe all but one of us started gaming with OD&D/AD&D.
> 
> And I also believe we all shop for RPG products online.




I didn't know we played played in the same group, Mallus?!


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Mar 26, 2010)

billd91 said:


> Frankly, that sounds like it could be awesome ebay material if the stuff's any good or has any following on the nostalgia market.




I've tried to tell him that. I even bought something from him at full retail, turned around and sold it on eBay for about 100% profit. I've seen him buy more stuff on eBay than I've seen him sell.



Mercurius said:


> You mean it has the original Dungeons & Dragons and Chainmail? Because that's the only RPG stuff that is "easily 35 years old". OK, I'm being facetious




He probably does have copies of OD&D and Chainmail. Since he also sells wargames, boardgames, trains, models, historical books, model rockets, and dollhouse stuff there is a plethora of old stuff around.



Mercurius said:


> There is a simple solution that every successful retailer should know: discount table/bin. I won't buy Diomin for $19.95 (or whatever it cost), but I might shell $5 out for it, especially if nothing else suits my fancy.




I agree, but in the ~20 years I've know him he has *never* put anyhting on sale at a discount. Ever. It shocks me that he's stayed open so long.


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## Raven Crowking (Mar 26, 2010)

JohnSnow said:


> Does anyone here know a lot of single 20-something gamers?




Ask me again next year. 

Most of the RCFG playtest group are in the 19-20 age bracket.


RC


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## bouncyhead (Mar 26, 2010)

Mercurius said:


> I think that's more of a time-of-life thing: post-college 20-somethings are busy doing other things (going to clubs, dating, establishing careers).




That certainly matches my personal experience. Started gaming (D&D) in 1977 aged 11 but pretty much gave it a miss from 18-28. We all stayed in touch and played the occasional session for old time's sake but were concentrating on other things. Back with a vengeance now of course. Thank mighty Zeus for d20pro.


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## pawsplay (Mar 26, 2010)

Henry said:


> Only problem is the problem with all hiring -- the people most knowledgeable about the subject matter are also likely to be rather uncharismatic, and the most charismatic are likely unwilling to become very knowledgeable about the material.




Why? I imagine the dimensions aren't strongly related, and that if you were careful, you could hire staff that was both charismatic and knowledgeable, to a reasonable degree.


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## neofax (Mar 26, 2010)

*Insightful*

I agree with the WotC reply to the original discussion, in that brick and mortar stores need to provide other means to drive consumers into the store.  I purchase all of my "fixes" online either from Amazon, WotC (DDI) or Paizo.  One, I am not rich and two the convenience.  I would love to go to my FLGS, but it is by no means "F"riendly.  The closest one to me is truly a hobby store with a small section dedicated to Pathfinder and 4E and until recently (just found out and haven't checked it out yet) no RPGA, Encounters or PFS play.  The other is ran by some jerk that does provide a great environment, but caters to his friends.  So, when you go there to play any organized games, it had better be at the @$$ crack of dawn to get a seat or you will be a onlooker.  His friends though have 3 of the 4 tables pre-booked.  So, most of my RPG play is done thru MapTools and I intend to stay there.


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## BruntFCA (Mar 29, 2010)

*You need to be sticky....and a good video game helps.*

To have a good "bricks and mortar" store, you also need a kick ass website, otherwise your just screwed. Let me give you an example. I was interested in picking up PHB1.

On Amazon it's £15. I went into town, drove the car, in the UK fuel is about $8 per gallon. To get into town and back costs be about £5. Then comes the unbelievable hassle or *parking*. Where I live in the UK, to get a decent parking spot in town is about £6 to £8.

I eventually get to the store, not in stock, find another store, it's there for £20. So in total I must pay,

Petrol £5
Parking £6
Book £15

Total cost £26.

Cost from Amazon £15.

Almost double the cost. And lets be honest, if you're driving in and out, you may pick up a coffee of cigarettes due to the sheer hassle. So what about actually *getting a game* and meeting people? Well Amazon score 0/10....as does the brick and mortar shop pretty much!

In contrast I recently bought a bike from a brick and mortar shop....but the guy has a kick ass website. All his stuff is listed, he has "bundles" to collect, he has meeting places, discussion forums for bike owners, he offers services etc etc.

I can't see how anyone can run a shop just stocking books and expect anyone to come. Moreover it's not impossible to make money running an RPG store. Where I live in Cardiff, the "Games Workshop" store has been there since I was 16 years old. I recently failed my saving throw versus self respect and 20 years later I went inside The shop was thriving. 2/3 of the shop was taken up with people *playing games* etc. They also have an amazing website to back it all up, calendars, schedules etc etc.

The other huge problem WOTC have at the moment is the *lack of a video game based on DnD*. Kids grow up fast, if you have a "vacant window" while the kids are between say 12-16, their early opinions etc will all be formed by say Warhammer40K (excellent RTS games), or need I say it the dreaded WoW. 

WOTC have nothing to show. Any computer game also acts as marketing for the other products. Until recently I was never interested in the WH40K universe, however after playing some 40K games, it was a lot less lame than I thought. I've not bought some fiction books, and may even pick up "dark heresy".

As an anectote I went around shopping for an LCD screen for a virtual table top. Most of the responses I got from the mostly pretty young staff in the shop was, "hey thats a pretty cool idea, I could get into that, you play 40K or something?".....now go figure.


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## Dire Bare (Mar 29, 2010)

BruntFCA said:


> WOTC have nothing to show. Any computer game also acts as marketing for the other products. Until recently I was never interested in the WH40K universe, however after playing some 40K games, it was a lot less lame than I thought. I've not bought some fiction books, and may even pick up "dark heresy".




Actually, there is a current D&D computer game, D&D Online: Eberron Unlimited, a free-to-play MMO.  It's actually a pretty good game, but has a low profile.  Your point still stands!


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## renau1g (Mar 29, 2010)

Well I OTOH find the 40k RTS games to be a very poor experience so they've turned me off of that setting. 

I feel bad you have such a poor store (well that and driving in London sucks). My game store locally hosts both the Encounters weekly game, weekly LFR games, bi-weekly Magic games + 1 game every three weeks for a few of the other settings.


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## S'mon (Mar 29, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Well I OTOH find the 40k RTS games to be a very poor experience so they've turned me off of that setting.
> 
> I feel bad you have such a poor store (well that and driving in London sucks).




He's in Cardiff, Wales - a different country from London.  

London driving certainly sucks, but we have relatively good public transport, when the Underground is running ok - London couldn't function at all without it.

Still, it's notable that 3 of London's 4 GSs (counting Forbidden Planet) are within walking distance of my work, yet I still do most of my purchasing online.


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## bagger245 (Mar 29, 2010)

BruntFCA said:


> I can't see how anyone can run a shop just stocking books and expect anyone to come. Moreover it's not impossible to make money running an RPG store. Where I live in Cardiff, the "Games Workshop" store has been there since I was 16 years old. I recently failed my saving throw versus self respect and 20 years later I went inside The shop was thriving. 2/3 of the shop was taken up with people *playing games* etc. They also have an amazing website to back it all up, calendars, schedules etc etc.




I wish D&D was this way. Come to a FLGS and see people playing with staff always ready to demo you the game. Wizards should put out a demo kit that any walk in customers can try and then buy. D&D Encounters is good but just the beginning.

You made a good point that gamer kids either go wargaming or mmo.


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## Dedekind (Mar 29, 2010)

I think my FLGS may make more money off of soda and snacks than games...


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## mhensley (Mar 30, 2010)

JohnSnow said:


> Does anyone here know a lot of single 20-something gamers?




For the past 3-4 years, I have been gaming with a group of guys at univ. of tennessee.  Besides me (44), everyone in the group is in their early 20's.  There are still a lot of gamers on college campuses today.


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## Henry (Mar 30, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Why? I imagine the dimensions aren't strongly related, and that if you were careful, you could hire staff that was both charismatic and knowledgeable, to a reasonable degree.




Just from my hiring experience (limited, but I have been asked to interview candidates for different jobs) I've found it to be the rule, not the exception. 

True, if you look long enough, you'll find people with both, but me, I'd rather hire for character than for skill, because you can train for knowledge and skill, but many businesses don't invest the money and time to train the right people, so they hire for technical knowledge, they get short-changed on character and/or personality, and it costs them in the long run. Like I said, it's the age-old problem in hiring, no matter the field.


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## The Little Raven (Mar 30, 2010)

BruntFCA said:


> WOTC have nothing to show.




I agree that a new 4e video game is needed, but it will have to wait until the WotC/Atari tussle is resolved. They can't get another company involved until that happens.


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## Dragon Snack (Mar 31, 2010)

JohnSnow said:


> Does anyone here know a lot of single 20-something gamers?



Define "a lot".  As a game store owner I obviously know a few, but I also met them when I was running demos for Reaper.  Sure, not as many as when I DJed at bars and clubs, but then I think that demographic tends to skew higher for singles - whether they are 20-somethings or not...



jaerdaph said:


> SIMCON Games Convention



Did you go?  I had a booth there myself.  According to the organizers, they had a bigger turn out this year.  I know my sales were up (not as good as Running GAGG, but then that was the release weekend for the Worldwake Magic set).



jimmifett said:


> ...and i'm sure there is a decent prfit on snacks and drinks...



Actually, the margin sucks.  Unless you buy pallet-loads you have to buy from a distributor.  After they take their cut, your ROI is about 30%.  It's a service and something that keeps people in your store, not a profit center.  I used to work for a candy (and cigarette) distributor, candy is not what keeps most stores (who happen to sell candy) in business (with a few exceptions, the cigarettes were what we really sold).



jaerdaph said:


> They also need to branch out in what they sell - RPGs and supplies, board games, computer games, and comics, for starters.



Comics, because of the monopoly-like hold that Diamond has on the distribution tier, is not something you dabble in though.  Unless you know what you are doing (or learn it very quickly), you can quickly drown yourself thanks to their minimum order requirements.  The industry boards are fond of stealing the line "go big or go home" if you want to do comics...


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## Stoat (Mar 31, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Why? I imagine the dimensions aren't strongly related, and that if you were careful, you could hire staff that was both charismatic and knowledgeable, to a reasonable degree.




Everybody dumps charisma except sorcerers and bards.  Would you hire a sorcerer or bard?


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## Festivus (Mar 31, 2010)

Dragon Snack said:


> Actually, the margin sucks. Unless you buy pallet-loads you have to buy from a distributor. After they take their cut, your ROI is about 30%. It's a service and something that keeps people in your store, not a profit center. I used to work for a candy (and cigarette) distributor, candy is not what keeps most stores (who happen to sell candy) in business (with a few exceptions, the cigarettes were what we really sold).




What about local bulk stores (e.g. Costco, Smart & Final), where you can buy for roughly .25 a can, even with deposit, selling them for $1 is a considerable markup.  Candy for .75 purchased similarly is large.  Now you might think $1 for a soda is too much, but look at a vending machine these days.


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## Festivus (Mar 31, 2010)

EDIT: GAH, duplicate post


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## Glyfair (Mar 31, 2010)

Dragon Snack said:


> Actually, the margin sucks.  Unless you buy pallet-loads you have to buy from a distributor.  After they take their cut, your ROI is about 30%.  It's a service and something that keeps people in your store, not a profit center.  I used to work for a candy (and cigarette) distributor, candy is not what keeps most stores (who happen to sell candy) in business (with a few exceptions, the cigarettes were what we really sold).



Unless you can go the restaurant like route (soda fountain, etc).  Beverages are their big money maker.  When Denny's had their big "free Grand Slam breakfast" day the local paper mentioned that they actually made money because of the high margins on the beverages that were bought that day.

Now most stores can't go that route.  However, if you have the money, you could tie together a coffee shop type place and a gaming store, as long as both can stand alone.


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## Saracenus (Mar 31, 2010)

So, here is my experiences with being a Wizards Play Network (WPN) organizer in Portland, OR.

Background: I have been heavily involved with the RPGA since the inception of Living Greyhawk and I noticed that home play and several other factors killed the once vibrant in store gaming groups that once roamed the earth here.

So I spent time building a relationship with my local game store, shout out to Guardian Games, and was able to start some Living Forgotten Realms (LFR) attempting to build a gameday. It was hard to get judges and players. It was not going well.

Enter D&D Encounters (DDE). I saw the potential immediately. I am currently hosting 3 days of DDE (3 tables on Tuesday, 1 Table on Wednesday, and 1 Table on Monday). I have only one LFR experienced judge my other 6 judges are brand new to organized play. I will probably expand to 4 tables on Tuesday and add a second to Monday for a total of 7 tables a week.

I have signed up tons of new players as well. The store owner is ecstatic. D&D 4e sales have been strong (She is a premier retailer, yes we get all D&D books 11 days in advance of street date and she gives discounts for folks that pre-order). Sales are picking up.

What is the moral of this, WotC is finally giving Brick and Mortar Stores some real advantages to draw in customers. My store is going to expand in a few months and will add an additional 12 tables to the gaming space (a 75% increase) which will help minimize the conflicts between Magic, Warhammer, and now DDE players.

My store is doing very well. D&D Encounters is doing well. 4e is doing well here.

My Two Coppers,

Bryan Blumklotz
Guardians of the Gameday Organizer
http://www.warhorn.org/guardiansofthegameday


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## Dragon Snack (Mar 31, 2010)

Festivus said:


> What about local bulk stores (e.g. Costco, Smart & Final), where you can buy for roughly .25 a can, even with deposit, selling them for $1 is a considerable markup.  Candy for .75 purchased similarly is large.  Now you might think $1 for a soda is too much, but look at a vending machine these days.



Well, I was talking candy.  Even at the bulk stores a regular candy bar breaks down to about 50¢ (or more), I sell them for 69¢ (75¢ after tax).

I was actually getting soda directly from Coke, until they started sneaking in price increases.  It's funny, but I can get Pepsi products for less than direct from Pepsi.  I'll be buying my own cooler very soon (I was going to buy one today, but the guy sold it before I got there.  Listed for 3 weeks and he sells it the day after I find out about it...), so I can search out the best deals on soda.



Glyfair said:


> Unless you can go the restaurant like route (soda fountain, etc).  Beverages are their big money maker.  When Denny's had their big "free Grand Slam breakfast" day the local paper mentioned that they actually made money because of the high margins on the beverages that were bought that day.
> 
> Now most stores can't go that route.  However, if you have the money, you could tie together a coffee shop type place and a gaming store, as long as both can stand alone.



Fountain soda machine, $2,000 (or more) plus running new water lines and having the health inspectors come in and approve it.  IIRC, it would take 4,000 or 5,000 sales to break even, assuming nothing needed to be repaired.  Then take into account the spillage on your table and floors (cans are bad enough).  Good ROI, but the money is better spent elsewhere.

I think the storefront next to me would be a great coffee shop, but it was bought by someone else and he is less than enamored of having a game store in town (not sure how much he had to do with it, but his partner started spreading the old 80's standby rumor of "D&D is evil" after he wasn't able to buy my building from me).


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## Festivus (Mar 31, 2010)

My FLGS just has a mini fridge behind the counter and folks come up and buy them at the register.  It sounds like you were looking for an actual vending machine to put in your store... but isn't that going to have the possibility of mechanical breakdowns too?


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## evilbob (Mar 31, 2010)

It's really amazing to hear people from cities talk about their experiences.  Things like "4 stores within 30 minutes" is like, some sort of heavenly realm that I thought only existed in storybooks.  

Seriously though, if you think FLGSs are rare, trying living in a rural area (not even "rural" - just "not that urban").  They don't exist.  People always forget:  D&D is niche-within-niche - a tiny segment of a tiny segment.  My experience with D&D-friendly gaming stores is that we've had a couple try to start up in my town over the last decade and all have failed within a year or two.  The only stores that sell games that make it are the ones who have been around for 20+ years already, and let me tell you:  the ones that even have D&D stock sure don't focus on it.

For me, there is zero reason to go to a store to purchase D&D products; it's ALWAYS cheaper online and no one offers anything other than simple retail sales.  (Of course, thanks to DDI, there's zero reason to purchase a D&D product anyway, but that's another story...)


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## renau1g (Mar 31, 2010)

There's the setting info and other fluff that's not in the builder that I find useful. It's hard to run Eberron with just the compendium.


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## Herschel (Mar 31, 2010)

Festivus said:


> What about local bulk stores (e.g. Costco, Smart & Final), where you can buy for roughly .25 a can, even with deposit, selling them for $1 is a considerable markup. Candy for .75 purchased similarly is large. Now you might think $1 for a soda is too much, but look at a vending machine these days.




It is illegal in many markets to do this due to distribution and wholesale vs. retail licensing. At least it used to be, I've been out of the restaurant/bar market for a while now.


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## jaerdaph (Mar 31, 2010)

Dragon Snack said:


> (re: SIMCON)
> Did you go?  I had a booth there myself.  According to the organizers, they had a bigger turn out this year.  I know my sales were up (not as good as Running GAGG, but then that was the release weekend for the Worldwake Magic set).




Unfortunately not. I'd learned about it late, and the kids had just too much going on that weekend already with Scouts. 

Next year hopefully. I think there's going to be a SciFi con held in Rochester in the Fall I'd like to check out too: Astronomicon


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## Festivus (Mar 31, 2010)

Herschel said:


> It is illegal in many markets to do this due to distribution and wholesale vs. retail licensing. At least it used to be, I've been out of the restaurant/bar market for a while now.




I was wondering about local laws on that, I should have mentioned in it my post, thanks for pointing it out.


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## S'mon (Apr 1, 2010)

evilbob said:


> For me, there is zero reason to go to a store to purchase D&D products; it's ALWAYS cheaper online and no one offers anything other than simple retail sales.  (Of course, thanks to DDI, there's zero reason to purchase a D&D product anyway, but that's another story...)




Well, I went to Orc's Nest yesterday and bought the new edition of Labyrinth Lord, at £14.95 it was cheaper than ordering from Lulu, as well as much faster.  amazon.co.uk doesn't have it for some reason, so the LGS got my business.  While I was there, I helped a newbie GM (played years ago, never GM'd) decide what to buy to get started with RPGs - he wanted something he could run with his theatre group offstage.  The staff girl dissuaded him from Pathfinder and tried to sell him Vampire, even though he clearly wanted an 'elves and orcs' game.  Labyrinth Lord didn't have the name recognition for him, though I suspect it was what he really needed (simple, portable, no need for minis).   I mentioned the D&D Essentials starter set coming out in September - too late - and the staff confirmed that the 4e Starter Set is long OOP.  So he/we settled on Keep on the Shadowfell as the only real option - even though IMO it's not really satisfactory, it does have short rules and pregen characters, two things he wanted.


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## S'mon (Apr 1, 2010)

Herschel said:


> It is illegal in many markets to do this due to distribution and wholesale vs. retail licensing. At least it used to be, I've been out of the restaurant/bar market for a while now.




It's quite hard to make such restraint-of-trade contracts stick though, unless the manufacturer can use some other right like copyright (videos) or sometimes trade marks (in import/export cases).  If you buy drinks from a retailer, you have a contract with the retailer, not the manufacturer, so the manufacturer can't sue you for breach of contract.  In theory the retailer could but they have little incentive to do so, since you are buying their stock.

What I've seen in the UK is that discount retailers just won't sell vast amounts of a product to one buyer; I think though that's more because they want to keep the product in stock for other customers.  And they reserve the right not to sell to someone they think will resell.


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## Kzach (Apr 1, 2010)

I wish game stores here would learn to run events properly. It's ironic that one of the quoted posts says they're being 'forced' to run live events, but realistically, they should be doing it anyway to bring in customers.

In my city I only know of two locations that run D&D games. One is so disorganised and never returns emails and is stand-offish at best when discussing the issue in store, that I've given up trying to run any events there. As a result, they're losing money hand over fist and can't seem to put 2 and 2 together as to the reason why.

Another chain store outfit specialises in running games for Magic, WoW TCG, L5R, D&D events, etc. They sell books and snacks as a secondary income stream. And guess what? They're doing very well and just recently opened up a new store.

Oh well, survival of the fittest I suppose.


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## darjr (Apr 1, 2010)

evilbob said:


> (Of course, thanks to DDI, there's zero reason to purchase a D&D product anyway, but that's another story...)




I'll give you that DDI covers a lot of what's in the books. But it isn't everything, and PHB3 came out in my FLGS BEFORE it came out in the DDI. There are also other books with a ton of stuff that isn't in the DDI. The dragon book for example, sure the crunch is, but that book is mainly about the fluff in it. Hammerfast, I don't think I've seen it in the DDI.


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## renau1g (Apr 1, 2010)

Kzach said:


> I wish game stores here would learn to run events properly. It's ironic that one of the quoted posts says they're being 'forced' to run live events, but realistically, they should be doing it anyway to bring in customers.
> 
> ...other stuff...
> 
> Oh well, survival of the fittest I suppose.




I agree with you, unless the store makes itself a hub of gaming for the community then the community will likely just order from Amazon to save 35% off the cover price. If the store runs regular games, has a knowledgeable staff (at least competently knowledgeable about the products they carry), and a decent set-up I would definitely spend the extra $10 to buy my book from them. 

If OTOH they expect people to just buy from them because they sell the books, well there's no incentive. 

Oh, I love the idea of adding a coffee shop element to the traditional gaming space. I've talked with a couple friends about some ideas like this, but we're all doing well in our careers with young families and can't afford to take this kind of risk.


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## carmachu (Apr 1, 2010)

> After all, in the age of the Internet you CAN find it cheaper elsewhere. You will find a better product knowledge elsewhere. What I can offer is a nice shopping environment you will enjoy coming to, and a good selection of merchandise to choose from you can take with you today. And, hopefully for some time to come, that will be valued by some consumers.




The problem comes in that the good stores like Titan and others are few and far between. if you have a great one, Good for you! The problem is most of us dont, which only adds to the shopping online, discussion online, finding gamers online with less hassle and no driving......

If I had a good one, it be different. But sadly I dont, so....to bad for game stores. No shopping in them for me.


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## amysrevenge (Apr 1, 2010)

Yeah, a good store makes all the difference (interesting to see a random plug for my store of shoice in this very thread, made by a person I don't recognize by handle no less).

Frankly, just having that good store nearby makes me feel a greater zest for playing in general.  Events and people in the store have rekindled my interest in both D&D and Warhammer.


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## Kzach (Apr 2, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Oh, I love the idea of adding a coffee shop element to the traditional gaming space. I've talked with a couple friends about some ideas like this, but we're all doing well in our careers with young families and can't afford to take this kind of risk.




Take a page from these guys books as they seem to be doing quite well here: Good Games


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## Glyfair (Apr 2, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Oh, I love the idea of adding a coffee shop element to the traditional gaming space. I've talked with a couple friends about some ideas like this, but we're all doing well in our careers with young families and can't afford to take this kind of risk.



I will say that the local store that tried that failed.  However, they had a lot of things going against them (including alienating a good portion of the gaming community).

Of course, one of the two success stories (will have their 30th anniversary next year), was a group of friends who all banded together to start a business they knew they would love.


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## Festivus (Apr 2, 2010)

If I were to open a game store, a combination coffee shop and game store is exactly what I was thinking of.  I have about 18 years before I am ready to try it though.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 2, 2010)

Festivus said:


> If I were to open a game store, a combination coffee shop and game store is exactly what I was thinking of.  I have about 18 years before I am ready to try it though.



It reminds me of that other odd but perfect pairing that was popular in the late '90s, the laundrymat/bar, though they only sold bottled beer, beer on tap, and glasses of wine, it was a 2 1/2 hr affair (the laundry) that became fun.


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## Kzach (Apr 2, 2010)

Glyfair said:


> I will say that the local store that tried that failed.  However, they had a lot of things going against them (including alienating a good portion of the gaming community).
> 
> Of course, one of the two success stories (will have their 30th anniversary next year), was a group of friends who all banded together to start a business they knew they would love.




Yeah, I don't think coffee shop is the right atmosphere.

The people I linked to above keep it pretty simple. They rent out a decent-sized floor-space and fill it with tables and chairs. The small amount of space they dedicate to selling product focuses on snacks and booster packs, ie. stuff that gamers will buy on impulse. They stock other materials as well, but keep it pretty thin since they're not high turnover items.

By concentrating on the competitive aspect of TCG's and now with the D&D Encounters format, and charging for games and table-space, they've adapted to the market's needs and filled a niche where brick'n'mortar can prosper instead of keeping themselves tied to an old, and unprofitable business model that sinks huge amounts of capital into stock that moves at a snail's pace.


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## renau1g (Apr 2, 2010)

And if you have that D&D game day event grab a few PHB3's (or whatever other book it is) and sell out for a nice little bump in sales.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 2, 2010)

Kzach said:


> Yeah, I don't think coffee shop is the right atmosphere.




I'm thinking full bar!


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## Kzach (Apr 3, 2010)

Dire Bare said:


> I'm thinking full bar!




Now yah talkin'!

Although it could shatter suspension of disbelief when the Dwarven warrior player tries to out-drink everyone


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 3, 2010)

I went to Board Game night for our FLGS on Thursday (Apr 1) and it was packed.  There mustve been 10-12 different groups of 2-6 playing different games. The even had a special "Learn to play Star Frontiers" table to do some OSR gaming with the ancient boxed set. My buddy and I played an awesome Battlelore enounter that came down to the absolute very end...  

An awesome good time.  The store also ran a 15% off sale the same night, and many bought board games and RPGs.


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## tylerthehobo (Apr 3, 2010)

*Accurate or not...*

Accurate or not, the posts that started this thread did get me thinking about something.  I'm all for technology in gaming, and see DDI as a great tool for folks who want an online version of their materials (especially since PDFs are so verboten right now in WotC land).  The issue I have though is as it relates to in-store gaming.  Periodically, I run a game at a local shop.  The owner is gracious enough to let us use tables, occupy his store for hours at a clip, provides a trash can that he ends up emptying full of our pizza detritus and soda cups, and is the best host you can ask for.  He does not charge a dime for us to play at his shop, and the players' assumption is that he just hopes we'll do the right thing and buy our gaming supplies there - and many of us do.  That said, when a player shows up with a character that was created with the online generator, and they hold forth about how print is dead and they don't need to buy books due to DDI, it brings to mind a phrase my Father-in-Law shared with me once.  He referred to the act of stopping at a McDonald's or whatnot while on a road trip, using the rest room, and then being sure to buy a soda or snack from the store as a responsibility of thanks he referred to as "paying the rent."  While it's great that players use DDI, the fact that for many it replaces the books - and in turn replaces their interest or need in purchasing books from the store that's hosting their game - has an edge of not "paying the rent" to me.  I see no policy shift at the store coming, nor think one would be appropriate.  It's about doing the right thing.  My longwinded point being - if you play at a Friendly Local Gaming Shop, throw them your business.


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## darjr (Apr 4, 2010)

tylerthehobo said:


> if you play at a Friendly Local Gaming Shop, throw them your business.




I totally second this!

I have a DDI sub and I make sure to support my FLGS.


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## evilbob (Apr 4, 2010)

tylerthehobo said:


> if you play at a Friendly Local Gaming Shop, throw them your business.



I agree, but a business model based on altruism can't be sustainable.


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## haakon1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Votan said:


> I've seen a store with ancient stock (stuff that is 20 years old) and not marked down at all; pretty tragic.




Not necessarily.  Having a wide variety of good stuff -- including old stuff -- can be what sets apart/built the reputation of some really good gaming stores, like the Compleat Strategist in NYC.

Of course, nowadays there's Noble Knight, but I bet there's still stuff Compleat Strategist has that can't even be found online.

Another nice thing about stores dealing in ancient stock is that they'll trade for old stuff.  My FLGS (Games Plus in Woodinville, WA) gave me 50% of cover price for some 3e stuff (in store credit) and sells some pretty old Dungeons for cover price.  This helps me get the feel right for the magic item dealer in my campaign!


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## haakon1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Dire Bare said:


> Actually, there is a current D&D computer game, D&D Online: Eberron Unlimited, a free-to-play MMO.  It's actually a pretty good game, but has a low profile.  Your point still stands!




Yeah, way to put the best foot forward WOTC, use the setting everyone knows and loves from growing up with and/or reading all its best seller novels -- Eberron -- and a rule set that doesn't correspond to any edition of D&D.

That's the experience people are looking for when they are looking for D&D -- playing robot people, auto healing for standing around, and PvP pit fighting.


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## haakon1 (Apr 4, 2010)

S'mon said:


> Still, it's notable that 3 of London's 4 GSs (counting Forbidden Planet) are within walking distance of my work, yet I still do most of my purchasing online.




3? Orc's Nest, Forbidden Planet, and the one near the British Museum, eh?  All in the area between Covent Garden and the British Museum.  I worked in that neighborhood too, when I lived in the UK.

The thing is, Forbidden Planet is a great sci fi geek store, but not much of a gamer's store.  The Orc's Nest I liked, but it's actually kinda small (compared to American stores) and had a decent, but not extensive, collection of D&D ware.

So I think central London actually has a dearth of good game stores, unless things have changed in the past decade.


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## haakon1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Stoat said:


> Everybody dumps charisma except sorcerers and bards.  Would you hire a sorcerer or bard?




Paladins are great, though, if you hire a 3.5 or earlier one.  The "Detect Evil" power really cuts down on shoplifting.


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## haakon1 (Apr 4, 2010)

evilbob said:


> I agree, but a business model based on altruism can't be sustainable.




Why not?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 4, 2010)

Because few people have an actual grasp of what it costs to produce a given product or offer a given service, so even if they like what they're buying, they're likely to underpay.


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## haakon1 (Apr 4, 2010)

*Of altruism and free riders*



Dannyalcatraz said:


> Because few people have an actual grasp of what it costs to produce a given product or offer a given service, so even if they like what they're buying, they're likely to underpay.




You assume people are cheap and like to be free riders.  The tragedy of the commons and all that.

That is, you're thinking "homo economicus", that life is all about maximizing utility and so if people can cheat/steal/get away with underpaying, they will.

I'd say that's true to some extent, or for some people, but humanity is more complicated.  We are also very much social animals, and one thing people HATE more than anything is a free rider.  From social psychology I've read, people will give us costs to themselves to punish someone who is seen as a free rider/getting away with something.

In D&D terms, you are saying man's default alignment is CN/NE.  I'm saying it's LN/NG.

(As an aside, anti-free-rider is a really common appeal in political arguments, I think because it's so deeply upsetting, at an animal level, to see people "getting something they don't deserve".  In the US health care debate, I see both sides couching their arguments in these terms.)

In fact, come to think of it, the heat of this whole discussion has been about free riders.

-- On the one side, the FLGS owners who think gamers are taking a free ride by finding out about games in their shops, then buying online.

-- On the other side, the gamers who think FLGS are unnecessary middlemen who are ripping them off and laying a guilt trip on them to get their money.

As for businesses that do survive on an altruism model:

1) Public radio and TV stations in the US

2) US theatrical productions (outside NYC and Vegas).  These are nearly always supported by local bigwigs and businesses.  In Seattle, some even have "name your own price" matinees, where people come in and pay whatever they want for a seat -- some pay $5, some $100.

3) Thrift stores for charities (relying on donations for their merchandise).

So theoretically, perhaps an FLGS should re-incorporate as a public service non-profit?  I suspect, as with newspapers, many of them are close to non-profit in their financials, though not their incorporation.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 4, 2010)

haakon1 said:


> You assume people are cheap and like to be free riders.  The tragedy of the commons and all that.




Did you actually read what I posted before quoting it?

I said



> ...few people have an actual grasp of what it costs to produce a given product or offer a given service, so even if they like what they're buying, they're likely to underpay.




IOW, I'm saying that even the best intentioned people tend to underestimate actual costs involved in getting a product or service to market, and will thus tend to want to underpay for it.



> As for businesses that do survive on an altruism model:
> 
> 1) Public radio and TV stations in the US




Enlightened self-interest isn't really altruism, and the corporate co-sponsors get what economists and accountants call "goodwill"- a form of positive publicity that can be leveraged for profit.



> 2) US theatrical productions (outside NYC and Vegas). These are nearly always supported by local bigwigs and businesses. In Seattle, some even have "name your own price" matinees, where people come in and pay whatever they want for a seat -- some pay $5, some $100.




There are nice little tax write-offs that you can get for contributing to the arts in this form, both as a corporation or as a private individual.

Because of certain tax loopholes, bigwigs are often sponsors of the arts in order to offset- aka "hide"- profits.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 5, 2010)

haakon1 said:


> Yeah, way to put the best foot forward WOTC, use the setting everyone knows and loves from growing up with and/or reading all its best seller novels -- Eberron -- and a rule set that doesn't correspond to any edition of D&D.
> 
> That's the experience people are looking for when they are looking for D&D -- playing robot people, auto healing for standing around, and PvP pit fighting.




As I stated, the game is low profile and the original point stands, that there isn't a massive, major D&D game to induce folks to check out the tabletop version.

But, FWIW, the game is based on the 3rd Edition ruleset.  There are changes, of course, but it's pretty obvious to anyone who's played 3rd Edition, which was the current edition when the game launched.

And, don't let your personal dislike of the game color what others may think of it.  While I've certainly heard a few folks bitch about the game on the intarwebs, it's actually a pretty authentic D&D experience as far as video games go.  And with the new free-to-play model, it has enjoyed a resurgence in popularity and is getting good reviews from the various game mags and sites.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 5, 2010)

haakon1 said:


> Why not?




Go ahead and open a gamestore with altruism as your major economic model.  Good luck!


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## haakon1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Did you actually read what I posted before quoting it?




Message received.  Conversation done.


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## S'mon (Apr 5, 2010)

haakon1 said:


> 3? Orc's Nest, Forbidden Planet, and the one near the British Museum, eh?  All in the area between Covent Garden and the British Museum.  I worked in that neighborhood too, when I lived in the UK.
> 
> The thing is, Forbidden Planet is a great sci fi geek store, but not much of a gamer's store.  The Orc's Nest I liked, but it's actually kinda small (compared to American stores) and had a decent, but not extensive, collection of D&D ware.
> 
> So I think central London actually has a dearth of good game stores, unless things have changed in the past decade.




Hmm, I don't exactly disagree but it's 2 more than anywhere else in the UK I can think of!   Obviously Leisure Games in Finchley is the only London games store that is at all comparable to its US equivalents, partly because it has the shelf space to allocate.   But it's too far for me to travel more than once a year.  Orc's Nest is very small, unsurprising given its central location, but I did pick up the new Labyrinth Lord there last Wednesday since it's not on amazon.co.uk and was cheaper & quicker than lulu.


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