# What stuff from 3.5e/3e/2e/1e/od&d should go into 5.5e?



## Henadic Theologian (Oct 3, 2021)

What stuff from 3.5e/3e/2e/1e/od&d should go into 5.5e?

 Since there is a thread on what from 4e should go into 5.5e, I thought a thread for what from every other edition before 4e and 5e should go into 5.5e.


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## MichaelSomething (Oct 3, 2021)

Bring back the commoner class!


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## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 3, 2021)

Percentile strength. 

With 18/00, you’re cooking with gas!


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## darjr (Oct 3, 2021)

I'm sure magic item creation is going to make the list. I could do without but wouldn't mind.


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## billd91 (Oct 3, 2021)

Default morale score for monsters and NPCs as well as guidelines for using them.


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## ReshiIRE (Oct 3, 2021)

My totally serious suggestion is the 3 / 3.5 Grapple Rules. I've heard such _wonderful_ things about them )))


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## overgeeked (Oct 3, 2021)

Henadic Theologian said:


> What stuff from 3.5e/3e/2e/1e/od&d should go into 5.5e?
> 
> Since there is a thread on what from 4e should go into 5.5e, I thought a thread for what from every other edition before 4e and 5e should go into 5.5e.



That's basically the premise of this thread.


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## darjr (Oct 3, 2021)

overgeeked said:


> That's basically the premise of this thread.



I didn’t notice, thanks!


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## Malmuria (Oct 3, 2021)

from basic: fewer choices and abilities when you level up

_runs away from riotous crowd_


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## darjr (Oct 3, 2021)

Malmuria said:


> from basic: fewer choices and abilities when you level up
> 
> _runs away from riotous crowd_



I was thinking of using the new idea of sidekicks as PCs.


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## Hussar (Oct 3, 2021)

billd91 said:


> Default morale score for monsters and NPCs as well as guidelines for using them.



So much this.  All the issues about pacing and encounters lasting too long go away.


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## Faolyn (Oct 3, 2021)

ReshiIRE said:


> My totally serious suggestion is the 3 / 3.5 Grapple Rules. I've heard such _wonderful_ things about them )))



Waaay back when 4e was about to be released, a friend of mine went to DragonCon and apparently asked someone at the WotC table what was a selling point for 4e. According to my friend, the person paused and then said "the grappling rules are better."


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## Faolyn (Oct 3, 2021)

An actual Habitat/Ecology section for each monster.

For wizards, a roll to see if you can learn a spell. For clerics, "spheres" (or a tag system) which indicate what spells their individual gods will or won't grant. 

Familiars that get better as you go up in level. They don't need to be super-duper, but something more than a 1 hp-wonder with animal intelligence would be preferable. 

A stronger differentiation in the spells for each class. If I'm phrasing that right. Yes, there are some spells that warrant being in multiple classes, but I think most spells should only belong to one, _maybe _two classes.

There's probably more.


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## Henadic Theologian (Oct 3, 2021)

Malmuria said:


> from basic: fewer choices and abilities when you level up
> 
> _runs away from riotous crowd_




 You...you just keep running after that one...


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## Henadic Theologian (Oct 3, 2021)

Faolyn said:


> An actual Habitat/Ecology section for each monster.
> 
> For wizards, a roll to see if you can learn a spell. For clerics, "spheres" (or a tag system) which indicate what spells their individual gods will or won't grant.
> 
> ...




 Of all of those I only see better familiar rules and a few more class specific spells (but still not the majority) being likely.


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## Gangrel44 (Oct 3, 2021)

Let the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger have as many attacks as the Fighter.


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## TarionzCousin (Oct 3, 2021)

THAC0!


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## Audiomancer (Oct 3, 2021)

All weapons do 1d6 damage.


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## ECMO3 (Oct 3, 2021)

The stuff that is already in 5E.


Henadic Theologian said:


> What stuff from 3.5e/3e/2e/1e/od&d should go into 5.5e?
> 
> Since there is a thread on what from 4e should go into 5.5e, I thought a thread for what from every other edition before 4e and 5e should go into 5.5e.



1. Paladins have to be lawful good
2. Druids have to be true neutral
3. Barbians are not allowed to use magic items or associate with Wizards or Clerics until they reach high levels and are still limited.
4. Halfling women have a maximum strength of 14.
5. Paldins are only allowed 10 magic items consisting of 1 armor, 1 shield, 4 weapons and 4 other magic items.
6. Monks have d4 hit dice, do +1/2 damage per level with weapons and get free proficiencies in athletics, stealth and thieves tools.
7. Racial class restrictions (Dwarf wizards I am looking at you!)
8. If a Wizard's familiar dies he permanently loses hps equal to the familiar's hit points.
9. Half Orcs can advance beyond level 20 and to unlimited levels if they take the Assassin subclass.
10. If an Assassin suprises someone he has a chance to outright kill him, regardless of hps, based on the assassin level and creature level.  He rolls percentile dice and if it below the number the enemy dies.


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## Stormonu (Oct 3, 2021)

HD for PCs stopping at 10.

Get rid of the sack'o hit point bloat!


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## UngeheuerLich (Oct 3, 2021)

Audiomancer said:


> All weapons do 1d6 damage.



Actually I'd rather have all weapons do the same damage, but get something extra. 
2e, 3e and 4e had nice differentiations between different weapons. 
Bigger crit range, better to hit bonus, extra damage on crits. Better initiative, extra damage vs large creatures. 
Hybrid thrown weapon or versatile. 

Martial weapons could have two abilites combined.


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## Steampunkette (Oct 3, 2021)

Stormonu said:


> HD for PCs stopping at 10.
> 
> Get rid of the sack'o hit point bloat!



I've -really- been coming around to this way of thinking... But also having a different value for creatures by type.

So Humanoids would stop at 10, Dragons at 20, Aberrations at 12, Giants at 10, Beasts at 5... Different stopping points by creature type.

Bonus points: It also means short rests in high level games are both more potent (Fewer HP to restore) but also less available (Less HD to spend).

... actually... you know what could be really cool? Gaining Hit Dice at Even numbered levels and just +Con bonus at Odd numbered levels.

That would really preserve some squishiness for Risk/Reward and avoid the feeling of a level 10 "Plateau". Would also keep enemies dangerous at practically all levels, when combined with bounded accuracy...


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## Jack Daniel (Oct 3, 2021)

Stormonu said:


> HD for PCs stopping at 10.
> 
> Get rid of the sack'o hit point bloat!






Steampunkette said:


> I've -really- been coming around to this way of thinking... But also having a different value for creatures by type.
> 
> So Humanoids would stop at 10, Dragons at 20, Aberrations at 12, Giants at 10, Beasts at 5... Different stopping points by creature type.
> 
> ...




The problem with either of these ideas is multiclassing. A fighter10/wizard10 should probably always have about the same total number of hps regardless of the order in which the levels were taken, but if you cut hit dice off at 10, the player who takes all fighter levels first is at a big advantage over the player who takes all wizard levels first; and if you go for Steampunkette's idea, then suddenly there's a massive difference between an even multi that goes fighter–wizard–fighter–wizard… and wizard–fighter–wizard–fighter… for no good reason.

Maybe just… reduce the hit die sizes back down to the original d4, d6, d8? Or cut hit dice in half — instead of d4, d6, d8, d10, and d12, determine classes' hit points with fixed values that simulate d2, d3, d4, d5, and d6? (Really, it'd be 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, or 3.5 – plus ½ Con mod – hps gained per level above the 1st. Something like that.)


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## overgeeked (Oct 3, 2021)

ECMO3 said:


> The stuff that is already in 5E.
> 
> 1. Paladins have to be lawful good
> 2. Druids have to be true neutral
> ...



I was in until you got to the racist and sexist stuff.


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## Voadam (Oct 3, 2021)

3.5 Gestalt as an official option for upping player capabilities.

3.5 Soulknife class.

3.5 Recharge magic.

3.5/3,0 more official options for decoupling clerics from deities in flavor.

2e Spelljammer, Planescape, Jakandor, Birthright, Mystara, Dark Sun.

2e Ravenloft as a connected setting.

2e In depth god descriptions.

2e Distinctive specialty priest options.

1e Oriental Adventures style martial arts.

1e-3e non-fiend extraplanar lords.


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## DemoMonkey (Oct 3, 2021)

"% in Liar"


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## LuisCarlos17f (Oct 3, 2021)

The martial adept classes (Tome of Battle: Book of nine Swords) and the monster/transitional/template classes, specially the dragons (let's say the PCs were the runts in the nest).

After Loki TV-Show and the troubles with the TVA I think the AD&D chronomancer could offer an interesting potential for new stories.


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## Lanefan (Oct 3, 2021)

1) Multiclassing where each class advances independently, rather than additive multiclassing.

Example: a Fighter-4/Cleric-4 is a 4th-level character in two classes (using the best attack matrix, save matrix, etc. of each class) but is in no way an 8th-level character!

1a) Classes advancing at different rates, and by extension a greater design-level acceptance of variable levels within a party

1b) Mechanisms for sudden level loss (e.g. undead) or level gain (one-shot magic item effects)

2) Death at -10, unconsciousness rules from 0 to -9, no more 5e-style "death saves".

3) Slower natural hit point recovery (though not as slow as RAW 1e!).

4) ... I could go on for ages ...


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## Lanefan (Oct 3, 2021)

DemoMonkey said:


> "% in Liar"



That's from the politician stat block.

For monsters I think you want "% in Lair".


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## billd91 (Oct 3, 2021)

Lanefan said:


> That's from the politician stat block.
> 
> For monsters I think you want "% in Lair".



There was a typo in early materials so that instead of % in Lair, it ready something more like % Liar. I believe the Murphy's Rules comic strip focused on it in one issue of *Space Gamer*.


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## Slit518 (Oct 3, 2021)

THAC0!

Staggered stat bonuses!

A dozen or more Saving Throws!

Save or Die spells or effects!

A stat cap of 25!


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## d24454_modern (Oct 3, 2021)

d4 HD: t's honestly annoying how high the hit points for Mages are

Divine Ranks: I love the idea of characters actually fighting gods.


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## Swedish Chef (Oct 3, 2021)

What I'd like to see come back is the spell school listings on Magic Items. 3/3.5 listed the schools in the item descriptions and it was very helpful.

So many times my players cast "Detect Magic" and then want me to let them know which schools they detect coming off any items that glow. Amulet of Health - abjuration? transmutation? something else? a combination?

That, or take the line out from the spell description that indicates that it reveals the school of magic. Simply have it glow, then use Identify for the details.


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## Krachek (Oct 3, 2021)

4ed, monster level and sample encounter.


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## overgeeked (Oct 4, 2021)

Hirelings. Domains. Castles and Keeps. Warfare. Immortality. The pure lovable gonzo of Mystara and Spelljammer.


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## Tinker-TDC (Oct 4, 2021)

Steampunkette said:


> I've -really- been coming around to this way of thinking... But also having a different value for creatures by type.
> 
> So Humanoids would stop at 10, Dragons at 20, Aberrations at 12, Giants at 10, Beasts at 5... Different stopping points by creature type.
> 
> ...



I think what might be nice is capping HP on level-up at 10 but still getting new hit-dice as you level up so while your HP are functionally higher they don't get higher in individual battles.

A lack of risk for a high level character is a major issue, though.


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## d24454_modern (Oct 4, 2021)

Tinker-TDC said:


> I think what might be nice is capping HP on level-up at 10 but still getting new hit-dice as you level up so while your HP are functionally higher they don't get higher in individual battles.
> 
> A lack of risk for a high level character is a major issue, though.



Who even does high level games?

I see this as a non-issue.


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## Hussar (Oct 4, 2021)

Can I please, please, please have the Binder back?  Pretty please?


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## Lakesidefantasy (Oct 4, 2021)

Bastard swords.

I would like to see more variety of weapons, even if they are statistically identical.


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## Tinker-TDC (Oct 4, 2021)

d24454_modern said:


> Who even does high level games?
> 
> I see it as a non-issue.



I mean, I think the real solution is to mash all the abilities classes have right now into the first 10 levels (rebalancing spells so your highest spell level is equal to your character level) and then make levels 11+ into just more uses per long rest for the stuff you already have.


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## Slit518 (Oct 4, 2021)

Slit518 said:


> THAC0!
> 
> Staggered stat bonuses!
> 
> ...




Just kidding! I don't want any of those back, except maybe Save or Die and a 25 Stat cap.


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## pming (Oct 4, 2021)

Hiya!

A DSG and a WSG, obviously. 

Rule wise... 

I'd like to see a _significant _reduction in HP's across the game. A PC gains HD's up to, say 9th level; then a flat amount of HP's from 10 onward.
Reduction in Damage for, well, most things; monsters in particular (to jive with reduced HP's).
Item Saving Throws (...wait...is this in 5e somewhere already?...)
Armour = Movement in stead of Weight = Movement (at least as far as Armour goes)
More "front loading" of Classes, with less goodies spread out as you gain levels.
1e Multiclassing at "the same time" (re; not "gain a level, pick a class")
"System Shock Survival" and "Resurrection Survival" (1e Constitution)
Well, unless we want to get REALLY nutty....in which case I'd just say "Convert 5e into Hackmaster 4th Edition". 

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## GreyLord (Oct 4, 2021)

Since Rogues get Expertise...

Give Warriors the same privileged with their proficiency with weapons...aka...Warriors advance far quicker and better than anyone else in hitting things accurately (not just multiple attacks, 1-3rd had that as well...but ALSO had Warriors attack bonuses go up faster and further than any other class).

Keep NPC's from Tasha's and integrate them into Core.  Allow options from them to be integrated as feats or options for the equivalent classes (so Spellcaster NPC options COULD be PC options) for PCs.

1st and 2nd edition options as a type of multiclassing.

Warlord

Cavalier as a class

Warden and Avengers as Classes (BECMI and 4e references on which way they want to go).

Assassin as an actual class

Include rules to make it so that those who want to can play creatures and races from the MM as classes (like Savage Species in some ways from 3e...in theory they have already done this with the NPC rules, but make them applicable to any creature one wants to play).  No more making special race situations, make the entire MM and other monster books available to players who want to play those monsters, creatures, or races.

Dragonlance (not going to happen with a Core rulebook release...but hey).

Give us feats or ways to increase critical hit ranges (i.e. as in 3e).

Include an option or options for Alignment less games or changing how the alignment works so one can run alignment like they did with BECMI if they so desire (just lawful, neutral, and chaotic...no good...no evil...just law and chaos and everything in between).

Give us Melnibone and Cthulhu mythos (okay, more of a OD&D thing that was taken out...but hey...it's been a while...and Pathfinder included Cthulhu stuff so it can be done outside of the Cthulhu RPG it looks like).

Greyhawk...more Greyhawk (again...maybe not in core...refer to Dragonlance above).


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## GreyLord (Oct 4, 2021)

d24454_modern said:


> Who even does high level games?
> 
> I see it as a non-issue.



Me.


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## Deset Gled (Oct 4, 2021)

I really miss 3.Xe's more detailed magic system.  Much crunchier details about "Magic A is Magic A, Magic B is Magic B" type stuff.


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## Lyxen (Oct 4, 2021)

d24454_modern said:


> Who even does high level games?




We do, almost all our campaigns end up at high level, usually 20. Honestly, why play D&D if it's to play sword and sorcery at a low level, there are many more better adapted systems? I'm partially joking here, but D&D scalability to epic tiers is certainly one of the thing it does best, better than most other systems which have tried it.



d24454_modern said:


> Divine Ranks: I love the idea of characters actually fighting gods.




On the other hand, due to bounded accuracy, 5e is probably the edition which is the least suited for this...


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## Ath-kethin (Oct 4, 2021)

billd91 said:


> Default morale score for monsters and NPCs as well as guidelines for using them.



Amen to this one! Having every encounter be an assumed combat, and every combat a battle to the death, is such a time sink and so ridiculous.



Hussar said:


> Can I please, please, please have the Binder back?  Pretty please?



I, too, dislike having my monsters in alphabetical order! 

The binder would be fine if each monster took up two full pages (one page front and back), but if they don't -  and let me be clear that I really think it would be silly and wasteful if they DID - things get out of order the second you add more monsters to the binder.

Ahh, the good old days.



Lanefan said:


> 1) Multiclassing where each class advances independently, rather than additive multiclassing.
> 
> Example: a Fighter-4/Cleric-4 is a 4th-level character in two classes (using the best attack matrix, save matrix, etc. of each class) but is in no way an 8th-level character!
> 
> ...



1) and 1a) I'm in on this one too. I like multiclassing at 1st level, which hasn't been seen since the 3.0 DMG.

2) Death saves have been around since at least the Rules Cyclopedia and I don't mind them, but I also like the -10 or -CON death point.

3) I've totally come around to the "heal all at once" philosophy. After all, there aren't any epic stories where Conan or Fafhrd spend a week convalescing. I'm cool with my wizard/dragon games having their heroes at full strength every episode.

-------------
For myself: I like themed spell lists and/or opposed spell schools. Wanna be a master blaster? Cool! No shapechanging for you (or equivalent).

I love and miss Weapon Mastery. We can restrict it to Fighters, with maybe a reduced rate for Paladins and Barbarians and Rangers - if we stick with al la carte leveling any character can still benefit. And if not, it just makes the weapon wielders the best at wielding weapons.

Drawing from their 2e incarnation, Bards should be half-casters and use spellbooks. They're far more interesting hat way IMO, and I absolutely detest the Spells Known paradigm to the core of my being.


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## Hussar (Oct 6, 2021)

Ath-kethin said:


> I, too, dislike having my monsters in alphabetical order!
> 
> The binder would be fine if each monster took up two full pages (one page front and back), but if they don't - and let me be clear that I really think it would be silly and wasteful if they DID - things get out of order the second you add more monsters to the binder.
> 
> Ahh, the good old days.



LOL.

Sorry, not the binder I meant.  I meant the 3e class of the Binder.  As in what the Warlock became.  

No, I most certainly don't want that 3 ring binder back.  Blech.


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## Ath-kethin (Oct 6, 2021)

Hussar said:


> LOL.
> 
> Sorry, not the binder I meant.  I meant the 3e class of the Binder.  As in what the Warlock became.
> 
> No, I most certainly don't want that 3 ring binder back.  Blech.



Oh, THAT Binder.

I bought the _Tome of Magic_ when it came out, mostly because I loved the idea of True Name magic. I was highly disappointed by the book and never actually used it.

Looking at the Binder class now, it does seem to be a far more intense version of the Warlock. I remember the Warlock from _Spells & Magic_, and I liked the idea, though we never used the class; I thought the Warlock in 3.5 was silly and didn't play enough 4e to really get a feel for it. Fast forward to 5e, and the Warlock is just about my favorite class in the edition - though it feels incomplete and kind of half-baked to me.

I think now that what I'm looking for is a Binder, not a Warlock - making a forbidden pact with an unknowable entity should have a real cost, and involve real struggles, and the Binder evinces that really well. I also like how the _Tome of Magic_ dives into the intersection between faith, religion, and heresy as in-game-world concepts, and that is right up my alley. Five bucks says Ari Marmell did the heavy lifting here - the concepts, themes, and detail seem very much like his work.

So I'm in. I want a Binder in the next revision/edition too!


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## Hussar (Oct 7, 2021)

If you're interested @Ath-kethin - Mage Hand Press has a 5e version of the Binder that I am just dying to play.  Book of Binding


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## Ath-kethin (Oct 7, 2021)

Hussar said:


> If you're interested @Ath-kethin - Mage Hand Press has a 5e version of the Binder that I am just dying to play.  Book of Binding



Wow! It's pretty impressive.

Of course, it also illustrates the difficulty in adding such a complicated class to the game - 40-odd pages  is a lot of real estate to take up for a single class writeup.


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## Voadam (Oct 7, 2021)

Ath-kethin said:


> Wow! It's pretty impressive.
> 
> Of course, it also illustrates the difficulty in adding such a complicated class to the game - 40-odd pages  is a lot of real estate to take up for a single class writeup.



Spellcasting classes take up a ton of real estate too if you include their spells.   

Here the class takes up 12 pages then there are 28 pages of individual vestiges.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 7, 2021)

Dwarf and Elf as class.
Okay, not quite like that. But I really liked the idea of a D&D starter box that presents the Dwarf and Elf as classes - and when you get the full rules, you understand that the Dwarf is really a Dwarven Battlerage Fighter and the Elf an Elven Wizard specialized in Enchantment, or something like that. 
I can't really explain why I like it, but I find it appealing. Maybe it's because it would require the system to allow race and class to be flexible tools to create something with a distinct flavor, and it would teach players how to do it for themselves.


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## Nefermandias (Oct 7, 2021)

d24454_modern said:


> Who even does high level games?
> 
> I see it as a non-issue.



People who knows how to run those.


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## Lyxen (Oct 7, 2021)

Nefermandias said:


> People who knows how to run those.



Exactly. Also people who like to use a lot of what is in D&D, and who believe that playing a game which is designed to be epic in an epic mode is really cool.


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## Tinker-TDC (Oct 7, 2021)

I mean, designing a whole 5/10 levels you're not expecting the players to play constrains the coolness of design you can add. If the game was 10 levels and then maybe had a whole different system for levels 11-20 I'd be all in on that.


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## d24454_modern (Oct 8, 2021)

Tinker-TDC said:


> I mean, I think the real solution is to mash all the abilities classes have right now into the first 10 levels (rebalancing spells so your highest spell level is equal to your character level) and then make levels 11+ into just more uses per long rest for the stuff you already have.



Real-talk: This sounds like a horrible idea.

It would actively discourage people from leveling up since they know that they won't get anything out of it past level 10.

P.S. I should've put "/s" after my text since too many people took it seriously.


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## Hussar (Oct 8, 2021)

Thing is, the whole, "the game only really goes to level 11 or so" is not a terribly strange point of view.  Most of the Adventure Paths have only gone to about 11th level (or so).  And, the meat and potatoes of the adventures are generally focused on the single digit levels.  

This has always been an issue in D&D thought.  The biggest hurdle, IMO, is that it just takes so damn long to hit double digit levels, if you play from 1st level, that most campaigns just finish before then.  If it takes a group a year to hit 10th or 11th level, which my groups have, well, by that point, the campaign is largely done and people want to move on to something else.  I know I do.


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## Ath-kethin (Oct 8, 2021)

Voadam said:


> Spellcasting classes take up a ton of real estate too if you include their spells.
> 
> Here the class takes up 12 pages then there are 28 pages of individual vestiges.



That's all true. But given that these days multiple classes can use the same spell, the spell section is a resource for multiple classes, not unlike combat or environmental conditions. As vestiges are only usable by the one class, it's more like including 28 pages of Battlemaster maneuvers.

I'm not saying I don't like it. It's just very space-intensive.


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## Greg K (Oct 8, 2021)

1e

Racial Strength, Dex, and Con maximums (18 +/- current stat mod)
Max Hit Die
subclass at first level
Unearthed Arcana's non-raging Barbarian (but renamed) as a non-raging, non magical/mystical, wilderness expert warrior, but with David Howery's revisions from Dragon
% in Lair
Complete Alchemist's Handbook (Bard Games)
2e

Priests of Specific Mythoi and Spheres of influence
The Complete Handbooks updated to use 5e
Kits become quick builds
incorporates 5e Backgrounds and Feats
Where necessary introduces new Backgrounds and Feats
Updates equipment , magic items,and spells to 5e
Jacob Driscoll, on ENWorld, has already updated the Complee Fighter's Handbook, Complete Thief's Handbook, Complete Priest's Handbook, Complete Wizard's Handbook, Complete Bard's Handbook, and Complete Dwarves' Handbook
David Howery's Completing the Complete Figheter from Dragon Magazine updated to 5e
Jon Winter's Completing the Complete Bard from Dragon Magazine updated

3e

Skill Points as a variant in the DMG
Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook (including the Psychic Class)
Green Ronin's Shaman Handbook  (including the Shaman Class (perhaps as a Cleric variant class including its own list)
Green Ronin's Witch Handbook  (including the Witch Class)
The Cloistered Cleric Variant from Unearthed Arcana
The Martial and Wilderness Rogue Variants from Unearthed Arcana
The Holy Warrior (i.e. spell-less) Paladin variant from Complete Champion
The Champion of the Wild Ranger (i.e. spell-less) variant from Complete Champion
Armor as Damage Reduction variant from UA as a variant in the DMG
Blue Devil's Poisoncraft updated
Monkey God Enterprises's From Stone to Steel updated
Skirmisher Press's Insults & Injuries updated
Tiny and Large PC races
4e

Deva
Avenger as a class
In the meantime, Sterling Vermin has a 2.0 version of the Avenger class on its website

Warden as a class
In the meanttime, Mage Hand Press has a Warden class

Warlord as a class
In the meantime, JodyLee (on DMsGuild), Kibble's Tasty (website), Robet Schwalb (Drivethru) all have a Warlord class


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## Faolyn (Oct 8, 2021)

Ath-kethin said:


> That's all true. But given that these days multiple classes can use the same spell, the spell section is a resource for multiple classes, not unlike combat or environmental conditions. As vestiges are only usable by the one class, it's more like including 28 pages of Battlemaster maneuvers.
> 
> I'm not saying I don't like it. It's just very space-intensive.



I'm looking at a list of vestiges on the GitP forums, and it seems like you can probably condense a lot of the vestiges into just a few lines if you replace some abilities with spells. Plus there's probably a few that wouldn't get converted. 

For instance, the vestige Andras (grabbed at random) seems to grant some sort of weapon proficiency, advantage in Animal Handling, and the spells _summon speed, enemies abound, _and probably either a paladin-like smite or the ability to cast one or more of the paladin's _smite _spells, each usable X times. The only iffy bit is the description talks about something called "Sure Blows" and I don't know if that would be advantage on attacks, a flat bonus, or something else, and if it can be used with any weapon or only a specific one.

Now, since I _don't _know the binder class (looks cool, though), there's probably some vestiges that would be a lot harder to convert like this. But I'm pretty sure you could reduce each vestige to a couple of paragraphs at most and save a lot of room.


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