# Recruiting for High Level Gestalt



## Lord Wyrm (Dec 18, 2005)

I've got a few ideas floating around and have had some time freed up unexpectedly so I have decided to run a high level game.  I have yet to decide on character creation for the most part, the only thing set in stone is this will be Gestalt somewhere between levels 10-20.  I am currently trying to acquire a list of interested players, I have three options based on the number of players interested:

1)  Ascent of the Gods:  I feel my campaign world needs some more Greater Dieties so I'll run the campaign that got the current ones in their positions. (Updated from 2nd ed of course)

2)  The Stuff Legends are Made Of/ Eaters of the Dead: Have you seen "The 13th Warrior" or read the book?  Then you have a pretty good idea of what this will be.  I'll change it up a bit of course.

3)  Clash of the Titans: Two opposing groups of PCs, thats about all I can say without some character concepts.


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## Lichtenhart (Dec 18, 2005)

I' definitely interested. I think I like #1 and #2 both a lot. I think I should advise you to keep the party small. High level characters, especially gestalt, can get quite troublesome to handle.
Should we come up with character concepts?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 18, 2005)

LW, I agree with everything that Lichtenhart said.  (Hi btw Long time no see!)  Smaller parties are just really better for PbP all around.   

I favor one slightly over two but not by once.  Concepts would really need to wait till after I see which option we went with.


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## Festy_Dog (Dec 18, 2005)

#2 is very interesting. I enjoyed 13th warrior greatly, so I'm guessing that's right up my alley.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 18, 2005)

Festy_Dog said:
			
		

> #2 is a very interesting. I enjoyed 13th warrior greatly, so I'm guessing that's right up my alley.



 I’ve never seen it…  I liked the book though.


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## Dracomeander (Dec 18, 2005)

I would be interested in either #1 or #2 with no real great preference towards one or the other. 

I have always liked variations on famous epic sagas, and 13th Warrior was an excellent adaptation of the Beowulf legend.

I have also played in and run ascension quests and found them to provide interesting quirks for a campaign.

Both sound fun, and I would enjoy the chance to be in either.


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## Shayuri (Dec 18, 2005)

Heya! Out of those ideas, #1 I think would by my first pick. I've not seen the 13th Warrior, but I could make do with a relatively short summary, just to give me an idea of the flavor and so on. #3 strikes me as an interesting idea, but it's not really a game concept. You could work that sort of 'clash' into just about any concept. 

What sort of starting level, statgen method, etc would we be looking at?


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## Ferrix (Dec 18, 2005)

I'm definately up for this!

#1 sounds really fun, as does #2.

Either way, cool!


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## Azaar (Dec 18, 2005)

Yes, indeed.  I'm interested as well (as if being in one of your PbP games isn't enough *grins*).  I'm definitely game to give it a try.  Playing a gestalt sounds like a very interesting change of pace.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 18, 2005)

I've kind of been giving thought to either a Paladin/Monk or maybe a fighter/Monk...  Not really into the oriental culture so it will be mostly for the mechanics…  And of course it needs to work with the game…

Of course a Paladin might not work in the game so I wouldn’t consider it to be in stone…

LW, hey will you allow us to buy off LA or not?  (I can show you the rules if you don't have WotC's UA.)

OH what about XP to make magic items with?


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## Bloodweaver1 (Dec 18, 2005)

AS i'm the one that started the other thread about epic campaigns, 
You can def count me in for this!

-Blood


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## djrdjmsqrd (Dec 19, 2005)

*in goes the hat...*

number 2 esp!


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## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 19, 2005)

1 or 2 sound good to me, also I'm interested in this game


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## Lord Wyrm (Dec 19, 2005)

I've looked at the material I have for #1 and #2 and have decided I can combine them fairly easily, it also makes updating #1 easier.



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> _snip_
> What sort of starting level, statgen method, etc would we be looking at?






			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> _snip_
> OH what about XP to make magic items with?




Level 10 initially, gives us a while till Epic.
XP will start at 50000, that should equate to half-way to level 11.  Thats 5000 XP for item creation if you want to try it.

Stat Gen will be 40 Point Buy or Grid method Using 5d6 keep highest 3, I'll let you vote.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> _snip_
> LW, hey will you allow us to buy off LA or not?  (I can show you the rules if you don't have WotC's UA.)



No, although your LA, and monster hit dice, only count along one class 'track' so you will have BA and Hit Dice from those levels.


The way I have rigged up my campaign world leaves a good amount of it 'gray' and fairly unwritten, so if you want to take it upon yourself to design a race, item, outer plane, etc. for your character then feel free.  I try and get some good mileage out of all PC designed stuff so what you design will carry over into future games.  I'll get up some world info within the next few days while you vote on stat generation.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 19, 2005)

Looks like you have more than enough players without me so I’m going to withdraw my name from consideration. 

Have fun everyone!


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## Lichtenhart (Dec 19, 2005)

I think I like point buy better.

I am thinking of a young and short human fighter-monk, who was once a weak street child, that was kind of adopted by a strange and very wise man, and taught a "pure" way to fight and defend himself and others. His master one night met an old enemy. He only remembers his master telling him to run, a lightning strike and nothing else. When he woke up, he was in the mud of a street and his master was nowhere to be seen. Since then he traveled looking for his master and his enemy, helping poor good people along the way whenever and wherever he could.

Any chance stuff from Book of Exalted Deeds is allowed? I'd like to try ascetic (it's also a lot less work spent on equipment ).


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## Festy_Dog (Dec 19, 2005)

My preference would probably be point buy, but in truth I'm content one way or another.

My current idea is something along the lines of either a druid-bard or ranger-rogue. The background for each idea is somewhat different. Wandering helper vs. discreet defender with their respective differences in outlook.


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## Ferrix (Dec 19, 2005)

What are your thoughts on templates Lord_Wyrm?


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## Shayuri (Dec 19, 2005)

I'm thinking either a mounted (on a dire wolf no less ) archer...likely a ranger/fighter/beastmaster, or perhaps a monk/sorceror so far...especially if the Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer is okayed. Mm...or maybe a rogue/fighter spiked chain wielder? Hee hee.

More details to come.


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## Wrahn (Dec 19, 2005)

I would be interested in playing, if there is still room.


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## Pyrex (Dec 19, 2005)

If you're not full I'd also be very much interested.

What sources do you plan on allowing?

Just the SRD?
The 'Complete nnn' series?
How about Magic of Incarnum?  (I've really been itching to try it out...)


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## Lord Wyrm (Dec 19, 2005)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> What are your thoughts on templates Lord_Wyrm?




I'm fine with templates, although certain ones aren't very good for PCs.  Most WotC stuff is in my possession, otherwise email or post the template so I can look at it.  (And if you want to design your own feel free.)



			
				Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> I think I like point buy better.
> 
> I am thinking of a young and short human fighter-monk, who was once a weak street child, that was kind of adopted by a strange and very wise man, and taught a "pure" way to fight and defend himself and others. His master one night met an old enemy. He only remembers his master telling him to run, a lightning strike and nothing else. When he woke up, he was in the mud of a street and his master was nowhere to be seen. Since then he traveled looking for his master and his enemy, helping poor good people along the way whenever and wherever he could.
> 
> Any chance stuff from Book of Exalted Deeds is allowed? I'd like to try ascetic (it's also a lot less work spent on equipment ).




I like the concept, I'm going to have some fun with that enemy.  
Book of Exalted Deeds is fine, since I have the Book of Vile Darkness it should even itself out nicely.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Looks like you have more than enough players without me so I’m going to withdraw my name from consideration.
> 
> Have fun everyone!




Feel free to come back if you so choose, I can always use another player.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> I would be interested in playing, if there is still room.





			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> If you're not full I'd also be very much interested.
> 
> What sources do you plan on allowing?
> 
> ...




There's always room for more  

Partial List of what's allowed:
SRD, Complete Series, Races Series, Eberron's non-setting specific material, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Magic of Incarnum, Heroes of Battle, Heroes of Horror (after christmas), any player creations (after DM approval), and the various WotC monster manuals
Other books if you ask.  I may also include some AE or Iron Heroes, we'll find out on the 25th.


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## Azaar (Dec 19, 2005)

How many are you planning on having, then, for this campaign, Lord Wyrm?  With all the interest, it looks as if this might be a very large group, indeed.

Hmm... concepts.  Too many concepts.  Too much potential.  I'm extremely tempted to do a warlock gestalt, although I'm uncertain of what I'd do it with:  ranger has an interesting flavor, but I'm not certain I can pull that off, mostly because of the sheer difference in combat styles  (never mind that being a ranger/warlock with the one-level dip I have in mind for the other campaign you're running would only serve to potentially confuse me).  Rogue/warlock is an obvious choice for me for quite a few reasons, although the soulknife/warlock sounds like another very interesting combination.  I do have other alternatives in mind, however:  monk gestalts have a bit of potential as well.

Before I decide fully, however, I'd best ask now:  what, if any, are the alignment restrictions?


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## Lord Wyrm (Dec 19, 2005)

No alignment restrictions.  I'm nice like that  
I'm thinking the upper limit of players could be 20, I have a few ways for the group to be divided so that I can run them in a parallel and the number doesn't slow me down.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 19, 2005)

Like the others I prefer the 40 point stats gen method myself, I'll get back to you with a concept.


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## Pyrex (Dec 19, 2005)

Azaar said:
			
		

> ...I'm extremely tempted to do a warlock gestalt, although I'm uncertain of what I'd do it with...




While it may not be completely optimal, I've been intrigued by the concept of a Warlock/Spellthief.  Other Warlock/ combos you might consider:  /Fighter (ranged combat feats), /PsyWarrior (lots of nifty tricks), or to really go for some out-there good(?!)ness; /DreadNecromancer.  Food for thought...  


As for myself I'm seriously leaning towards a NG Druid/Incarnate as conceptually they seem to meld well for me.


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## Azaar (Dec 19, 2005)

Cool deal.  As far as stats go... I'm very tempted to say the 5d6/drop lowest two option, but if the majority goes with 40-point buy, I'm fine with that as well.  After all, at level 10 we also have 2 ability increases to help out.

Pyrex wrote:



> or to really go for some out-there good(?!)ness; /DreadNecromancer.




Alas, I don't have Heroes of Horror.  Otherwise I'd take a look-see, mostly because I actually enjoy playing necromancers -- if not the specialist themselves, a generalist who leans towards the study of necromancy.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 19, 2005)

Lord Wyrm said:
			
		

> No, although your LA, and monster hit dice, only count along one class 'track' so you will have BA and Hit Dice from those levels.



Can you clarify this please, as I'm thinking about using a LA template.


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## Ferrix (Dec 19, 2005)

I'm either looking at a couple of concepts:

1) Elf archer type - hero of the elvish people
2) Elf champion of corellon/dervish type - hero of the elvish people.

See a theme?

or

3) A character with one side a fighting class, the other side templates.


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## Ferrix (Dec 20, 2005)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Can you clarify this please, as I'm thinking about using a LA template.




You have two sides to your gestalt build, level adjustment and racial hd can occupy one side of that build.


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## Pyrex (Dec 20, 2005)

So, for a rather extreme example (for the sake of clarity)

L 1: Ftr/BugBear RacialHD1
L 2: Ftr/BugBear RacialHD2
L 3: Ftr/BugBear RacialHD3
L 4: Ftr/BugBear LA+1
L 5: Ftr/Fiendish LA+1
L 6: Ftr/Fiendish LA+2
L 7: Ftr/HalfDragon LA+1
L 8: Ftr/HalfDragon LA+2
L 9: Ftr/HalfDragon LA+3
L10: Ftr/Bbn

Gets you a Fiendish Half-Dragon Bugbear Ftr10/Bbn1.


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## Endur (Dec 20, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Gets you a Fiendish Half-Dragon Bugbear Ftr10/Bbn1.




Noooo... you want a fiendish vampire Sorceror 10

L 1: Sor/Fiendish LA+1
L 2: Sor/Fiendish LA+2
L 3: Sor/Vampire LA+1
L 4: Sor/Vampire LA+2
L 5: Sor/Vampire LA+3
L 6: Sor/Vampire LA+4
L 7: Sor/Vampire LA+5
L 8: Sor/Vampire LA+6
L 9: Sor/Vampire LA+7
L10: Sor/Vampire LA+8


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## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 20, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> So, for a rather extreme example (for the sake of clarity)
> 
> L 1: Ftr/BugBear RacialHD1
> L 2: Ftr/BugBear RacialHD2
> ...



Thanks for that, at this stage I'm planning on the following
Lvl 1:  Barbarian/Warlock
Lvl 2:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 3:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 4:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 5:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 6:  Feral Template/Warlock
Lvl 7:  Winged Template(+1)/Warlock
Lvl 8:  Winged Template(+2)/Warlock
Lvl 9:  Pyrokineticist/Warlock
Lvl 10: Pyrokineticist/Warlock[/sblock]

Which will result in a Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Pyrokineticist 2/Warlock 10 which will do 2d6 (Imp Nat Att(Claws)) + 2d6 (Hands Afire) + 5d6(Hideous Blow) +4 (Str) +2(Weapon Spec(Claws))claw damage.  

This results in 15-60 pts of claw damage or an average of 37 pts of damage   

Anywho I've been reading thru the rules on Gesalt Characters and I think I'm going to need some serious help with working out my characters BAB and Saves.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 20, 2005)

How are HP being handled are we taking average HP's per level, rolling or some other method

And how much gold do we start with


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## MeepoTheMighty (Dec 20, 2005)

I'd be interested in joining this as well.  I'm thinking of barbarian/something.  Perhaps a barbarian/scout or barbarian/druid?

Or maybe something a little more out there, like a hexblade/warlock.


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## Pyrex (Dec 20, 2005)

Endur said:
			
		

> Noooo... you want a fiendish vampire Sorceror 10




Oof.  That's just evil.


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## Pyrex (Dec 20, 2005)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Which will result in a Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Pyrokineticist 2/Warlock 10 which will do 2d6 (Imp Nat Att(Claws)) + 2d6 (Hands Afire) + 5d6(Hideous Blow) +4 (Str) +2(Weapon Spec(Claws))claw damage.
> 
> This results in 15-60 pts of claw damage or an average of 37 pts of damage




Keep in mind that Hideous Blow is a Standard Action.  37pts from a claw is nothing to laugh at, but it's only once a round.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 20, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that Hideous Blow is a Standard Action.  37pts from a claw is nothing to laugh at, but it's only once a round.



Thats true but he still has a least one other claw attack at 2d6 +2d6(Hands Afire)+9, not to mention the 2 free attacks when he pounces and rakes at 2d6+9.  So hopefully it'll all add up  

Anywho here is my partially completed character, as mentioned I'm going to need some help with working out his BAB and Saves, I'd also appreciate any suggestions for my final lesser invocations as well as what to spend his remaining gold on.  Also apart from the 'Amulet of Mighty Fist' is there any other way of enchanting Talon's claw attack?

*Talon 'Razorclaw'*
Male Winged Feral Human[sblock] 
Classes:[sblock]
Lvl 1:  Barbarian/Warlock
Lvl 2:  Feral/Warlock
Lvl 3:  Winged/Warlock
Lvl 4:  Winged/Warlock
Lvl 5:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 6:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 7:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 8:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 9:  Pyrokineticist/Warlock
Lvl 10: Pyrokineticist/Warlock[/sblock]
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Deity: 
Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Base Speed: 50' 70'(Perfect)

Str: 24 (+7) 6 pts  +2 levels +4 Belt
Dex: 20 (+5) 10 pts +2 Gloves
Con: 18 (+4) 10 pts
Int: 10 (+0) 6 pts
Wis: 14 (+2) 2 pts
Cha: 14 (+2) 6 pts  

HP:  93(1d12 +4d10 +3d6 +2d8 +40 Con )

AC: 29 (10 base, +5 Dex, +6 Nat Arm, +8 Arm)

Saves: 
Fortitude: (+? Base +4 Con)
Reflex: (+? Base +5 Dex)
Will: (+? Base +2 Wis)

Init: +8 

Base attack bonus: +?

*Attacks: * 
+?(+? BAB +5 Dex) *Eldricth Blast * 5d6
+ (+? BAB +7 Str + 1 (WF) *Claws* 2d6 +2d6(Hand Afire) +2d6(Psionic Fist) +5d6(Hideous Blow) +7(Str) +2(WS)

*Skills*
Craft(Alchemy) (1 rank)
Concentration 17 (13 ranks +4 Con)
Knowledge(Psionics) (2 ranks)
Use Magical Device 15 (13 ranks +2 Cha)

*Feats:[*sblock]
1st   : Wild Talent
1st(b): Psionic Fist
3rd   : Empower Spell-Like Ability(Eldritch Blast)
5th(b): Weapon Focus(Claws)
6th   : Improved Natural Attack(Claws)
6th(b): Improved Init
8th(b): Weapon Specialisation(Claws)
9th   : Maximise Spell-Like Ability(Eldritch Blast)[/sblock]

*Equipment:*
+3 Mithral Breastplate (+8Arm +5MDB -1ACP 15%SF 15lbs) 13200gp
Belt of Giants Strength(+4) 16000gp
Brooch of Shielding 1500gp
Fingerless Gloves of Dexterity +2 4000gp 
Ring of Sustenance 2500gp

Treasure:  11800gp (49000gp)
Weight Carried:  15lbs

*Feral Template Abilities*[sblock]
+4 Str -2 Dex +2 Con -4 Int +2 Wis
+10' Landspeed
+6 Natural Armour
Claws (1d8)
Improved Grab(Ex)[sblock]If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.[/sblock]
Pounce(Ex)[sblock]When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.[/sblock]
Rake(Ex)[sblock]A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.[/sblock]
Fast Healing 4
Darkvision 90'
[/sblock]
*Winged Template Abilities*[sblock]
Flight Speed = Landspeed +20'(Perfect)
+4 Dex +2 Wis 
[/sblock]
*Pyrokineticist Abilities*[sblock]
Fire Lash(Ps)Create a 15' whip of flame (move action) 1d8 damage
Fire Adaption(Ex) +4 save against fire and heat spells and effects Fire Resistance 10
Hand Afire(Ps) Engulf 1 hand in flame (move action) 2d6 damage[/sblock]
Warlock Abilities[sblock]
Eldritch Blast (SU) 5d6 
Detect Magic at will
DR 2/Cold Iron
Deceive Item
Fiendish Resilience 1
[/sblock]

*Invocations*
Least:
Eldritch Spear
Hideous Blow
See the Unseen

Lesser:
Flee the Scene
Walk Unseen
?

Height: 6'2"
Weight: 200 lbs
Eyes: 
Hair: Black
Skin: Olive

*Appearance:*
Talon is an imposing sight to behold whether he's speeding thru the air, like a mighty bird of prey
of racing along the grounds like a charging lion.  Due to the magical experimentaion that Talon was
subjected to, Talon whole body was altered into a more basic feral preadatory form, Talon possesses
lethal looking claws on both his hands and feet, bird-like wings sprout from his back, and razor 
sharp teeth gleem in his mouth.

*Background:*
Talon was born into the [insert name] tribe on the mountain steepes of [insert name], during his naming
day ceremony (age 13) his tribe was attacked by the forces of an evil wizard, Talon returned in time to
kill afew of the soldiers and to be captured along with the other surviving children.

What followed next was 4 years of misery and pain, as Talon's body was twisted by the wizards fell magic 
as he sought to create the perfect warrior, unlike many of the young one from his tribe Talon survived, 
and was ensnared by the Wizards magic and forced to do his bidding, and perpetuate the cylce of misery
and dispair visited upon Talon and his tribe.

After 4 years of forced service, Talons chance at revenge finally appeared, in the form of an adventuring
group who had come to destroy the evil wizards plans, during the fight with the adventurers the enchant
controlling Talons mind was lifted, vowing to end the Wizards misery Talon joined up with the group and 
managed to get them deep within the Wizards lair, by pretending to have captured them.

That night Talon fullfilled his sacred vow and duty and ended the life of the evil Wizard. 

After 4 years of spreading misery and pain Talon vowed in his heart to hunt down others of the wizards
kind and break the yoke of such ones, and thus he came to join with the brave adventuring party, and 
became a scourge to evil and tyranny.[/sblock]


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## Azaar (Dec 20, 2005)

Hmm.  Guess I'll try thinking up another concept.  No sense in there being multiple Warlock gestalts, after all... unless they're gonna be split up, that is.


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## Pyrex (Dec 20, 2005)

Warlock is 3/4 BaB, right?

Assuming that, and assuming we'll be using fractional-advancement for BaB and Saves your bab will be:

L1 -> L5:  +1 x5 == +5
L6 -> L10: +0.75 x5 == +3.75

BaB == +8

IDHMBIFOM, so I can't help you with the Saves right now...


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## Pyrex (Dec 20, 2005)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Thats true but he still has a least one other claw attack at 2d6 +2d6(Hands Afire)+9, not to mention the 2 free attacks when he pounces and rakes at 2d6+9.  So hopefully it'll all add up




Er, no.  If you do a Hideous Blow, that's the only attack you get.  Activating the power and making the attack is a Standard Action.

If you take a Full Attack action (to get the pounce -> claw/claw/rake/rake) you don't get to add the Hideous Blow to any of them.

That being said, when you only get to make one attack, Hideous Blow is darned good.

Also: 

--> Keep in mind that you have to expend your Psionic Focus to get the extra 2d6 from Psionic Fist, and the extra damage only applies to one attack.

--> Hands Afire only works on one of your attacks, not your whole attack sequence.


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## Ferrix (Dec 20, 2005)

Feral template... the most broken +1 LA out there.  Nice choice, although neither it nor the winged template are in his list of allowed books, so you'd better run it by him.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 20, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Warlock is 3/4 BaB, right?
> 
> Assuming that, and assuming we'll be using fractional-advancement for BaB and Saves your bab will be:
> 
> ...



Thanks for that  btw what does IDHMBIFOM (I don't have my books in front of me perhaps  )


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## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 20, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Er, no.  If you do a Hideous Blow, that's the only attack you get.  Activating the power and making the attack is a Standard Action.
> 
> If you take a Full Attack action (to get the pounce -> claw/claw/rake/rake) you don't get to add the Hideous Blow to any of them.
> 
> That being said, when you only get to make one attack, Hideous Blow is darned good.



Thanks for that, that clarifies things for me. 



> Also:
> 
> --> Keep in mind that you have to expend your Psionic Focus to get the extra 2d6 from Psionic Fist, and the extra damage only applies to one attack.



Very true



> --> Hands Afire only works on one of your attacks, not your whole attack sequence.



For some reason I thought you could activate Hands Afire on one hand as a move action and then upon your other hand as another move action.

As you say Talon can either go for one really lethal claw attack(2d6+2d6[HAf]+2d6[PsiFist]+5d6[HidBlow]+9= 20-75pts of dmg or 47 avg dmg), or he can pounce and be even more lethal (C1:2d6+2d6[HAf]+2d6[PsiFist]+9, C2:2d6+9x3 46-96 pts dmg or 78 avg if all attacks hit) but have to make 4 attacks instead of one.

Either way I'm happy with the concept which I've been kicking around for a while.


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## Pyrex (Dec 21, 2005)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Thanks for that  btw what does IDHMBIFOM (I don't have my books in front of me perhaps  )




Got it in one. 



			
				Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> For some reason I thought you could activate Hands Afire on one hand as a move action and then upon your other hand as another move action.



The rules are silent on that.  It'd be up to our DM.



			
				Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> As you say Talon can either go for one really lethal claw attack(2d6+2d6[HAf]+2d6[PsiFist]+5d6[HidBlow]+9= 20-75pts of dmg or 47 avg dmg), or he can pounce and be even more lethal (C1:2d6+2d6[HAf]+2d6[PsiFist]+9, C2:2d6+9x3 46-96 pts dmg or 78 avg if all attacks hit) but have to make 4 attacks instead of one.




Yup, and you only get all four attacks when you can Pounce, which IME* is about every third round or so.

*We had a were-tiger in a previous tabletop game who loved to pounce.  Given the melee-combat-clustering that tends to happen, arranging a charge/pounce mid-combat just can't be done every round.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 21, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Yup, and you only get all four attacks when you can Pounce, which IME* is about every third round or so.
> 
> *We had a were-tiger in a previous tabletop game who loved to pounce.  Given the melee-combat-clustering that tends to happen, arranging a charge/pounce mid-combat just can't be done every round.



I wonder if Talons ability to fly might increase his ability to pounce, I guess it would depend on the enviroment to an extent


----------



## Azaar (Dec 21, 2005)

Okay, this thing of adding templates/LA to one side of the gestalt and the other remaining solely class has me curious about some things.  Hopefully you all can set me straight on these things.

For example, let's say I want to do a half-fiend/drow fighter/warlock.  I want to maximize casting level and all that, so I put the template and LA on the fighter side, like so:

Half-Field (LA) / Warlock 1
Half-Field (LA) / Warlock 2
Half-Field (LA) / Warlock 3
Half-Field (LA) / Warlock 4
Drow (LA) / Warlock 5
Drow (LA) / Warlock 6
Drow (racial/class) Fighter 1 / Warlock 7
Fighter 2 / Warlock 8
Fighter 3 / Warlock 9
Fighter 4 / Warlock 10

Now, I'm curious about how this will pan out overall:

1) Hit Dice:  Is this character going to have 4 HD from classes, or 10 HD?

2) Saves:  Do I compare the base saves from Fighter 4 against Warlock 10?

3) BAB:  Same as saves -- am I comparing the BAB of Fighter 4 against Warlock 10?

4) Miscellaneous stuff:  what other fluctuations, aside from the aforementioned in the previous three questions, should I expect out of a build like this?


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 21, 2005)

Since he has Perfect maneuverability, yes, but he would have to sacrifice attacks do do so:

Rnd 1:  Charge/Pounce
Rnd 2:  Withdraw
or
Rnd 2:  Make one attack & move away, taking an AOO.
Rnd 3:  Charge/Pounce

vs:
Rnd 1:  Charge/Pounce
Rnd 2:  Full Atk
Rnd 3:  Full Atk


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 21, 2005)

Azaar said:
			
		

> Okay, this thing of adding templates/LA to one side of the gestalt and the other remaining solely class has me curious about some things.  Hopefully you all can set me straight on these things.
> 
> For example, let's say I want to do a half-fiend/drow fighter/warlock.  I want to maximize casting level and all that, so I put the template and LA on the fighter side, like so:
> 
> ...




10hd


			
				Azaar said:
			
		

> 2) Saves:  Do I compare the base saves from Fighter 4 against Warlock 10?
> 3) BAB:  Same as saves -- am I comparing the BAB of Fighter 4 against Warlock 10?




No.  You compare how much BaB/Saves each class would give you at each level and take the best.

For your first four levels, Half-Fiend contributes BaB of +0/lvl and Warlock contributes BaB of +0.75/level, so at L4 you have BaB of 3.

At level 6 you have a BaB of 4.5 which rounds down to 4.

At level 7 you take the better of Ftr (+1/lvl) or Warlock (+0.75/lvl) and increase your BaB to 5.5, which rounds down to 5.  

You do the same for levels 8-10 ending with a BaB of 8.5.

With Saves, you either get 0.5/lvl (for good saves) or .33r/lvl (for bad saves) with a +1.5 bonus the first time you get a 0.5 for that save.



			
				Azaar said:
			
		

> 4) Miscellaneous stuff:  what other fluctuations, aside from the aforementioned in the previous three questions, should I expect out of a build like this?



Just your basic stacked-template power...


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 21, 2005)

*Example for Saves*

Hopefully this'll clear things up a bit:


```
BaB      Fort Save      Will Save
Ftr / Half Fiend  (+1 / 0)   (+2   / +0)    (+0.33 / +0)
Ftr / Half Fiend  (+1 / 0)   (+0.5 / +0)    (+0.33 / +0)
Ftr / Half Fiend  (+1 / 0)   (+0.5 / +0)    (+0.33 / +0)
Ftr / Half Fiend  (+1 / 0)   (+0.5 / +0)    (+0.33 / +0)
Ftr / Cleric      (+1 / .75) (+0.5 / +0.5)  (+0.33 / +2)
Ftr / Cleric      (+1 / .75) (+0.5 / +0.5)  (+0.33 / +0.5)
```

So at the end you've got BaB +6, Fort +4.5 and Will 3.82

Everything rounds-down, so you get BaB +6, Fort +4 and Will +3


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 21, 2005)

Azaar said:
			
		

> Okay, this thing of adding templates/LA to one side of the gestalt and the other remaining solely class has me curious about some things.  Hopefully you all can set me straight on these things.
> 
> For example, let's say I want to do a half-fiend/drow fighter/warlock.  I want to maximize casting level and all that, so I put the template and LA on the fighter side, like so:
> 
> ...



As I'm still new to Gesalt characters I can only answer your first question.
1) You have 10 HD 3d10 from your fighter levels and 7d6 from your warlock levels


----------



## Lichtenhart (Dec 21, 2005)

Here is a draft of my char for you comment upon: 

Human Ascetic Fighter 10 / Monk 10
Lawful Good


```
STR 14		6
DEX 14		6
CON 14		6
INT 12		4
WIS 16+2+2	10
CHA 15		8
```
HP: 10d10+30
BAB: +10/+5


```
Fort: +7 base +2 con +2 feat +1 res = +12 (+13 vs spells)
      (improved evasion)
Refl: +7 base +2 dex +2 feat +1 res = +12 (+13 vs spells)
      (immune to disease, starvation, thirst, elements)
Will: +7 base +5 wis         +1 res = +13 (+14 vs spells)
      (+2 vs enchantment spells and effects)
```
Attack: Unarmed Strike +10 base +5 wis +2 feat +2 enh = +19/+19/+14 (magic, lawful, good, holy)
Damage: Unarmed strike 1d10 +2 str +2 feat +2 enh = 1d10+6 (+2d6 vs evil)
Stunning Fist: 10/day, DC 20 (DC 22 + staggered 1 round vs evil)

AC: 10 base +2 dex +5 wis +2 monk +7 exalted +1 def +1 nat = 28
Touch AC: 10 base +2 dex +5 wis +2 monk +1 def = 20
Flatfooted AC: 10 base +5 wis +2 monk +7 exalted +1 def +1 nat = 26

Speed 60'

Skill Points: 13*(4+1+1)+10=88
Max Ranks: 13/6.5
Class skills: 
[sblock]Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana/religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).[/sblock]
Feats:
[sblock]
	
	



```
1)	Bonus (exalted):	Nymph's Kiss
	Bonus (fighter):	Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
	Bonus (human):		Sacred Vow
	Bonus (monk):		Improved Unarmed Strike
	Bonus (monk):		Stunning Fist
	Level:			Vow of Poverty
2)	Bonus (exalted):	Nimbus of Light
	Bonus (fighter):	Blind-Fight
	Bonus (monk):		Deflect Arrows
3)	Level:			Great Fortitude
4)	Bonus (exalted):	Sanctify Ki Strike
	Bonus (fighter):	Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
6)	Bonus (exalted):	Fist of the Heavens
	Bonus (fighter):	Improved Toughness
	Bonus (monk):		Improved Disarm
	Level:			Faster Healing
8)	Bonus (exalted):	Intuitive Attack
	Bonus (fighter):	Run
9)	Level:			Lightning Reflexes
10)	Bonus (exalted):	Holy Ki Strike
	Bonus (fighter):	Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
```
[/sblock]
Special Abilities:
[sblock]
	
	



```
3)	Monk:		Still Mind (Ex)
	Ascetic:	Endure Elements (Ex)
4)	Monk:		Ki Strike Magic (Su)
	Ascetic:	Exalted Strike +1 Magic (Su)
5)	Monk:		Purity of Body (Ex)
	Ascetic:	Sustenance (Ex)
6)	Ascetic:	Deflection +1 (Su)
7)	Monk:		Wholeness of Body (Su)
	Ascetic:	Ability Score Enhancement +2 (Ex)
	Ascetic:	Resistance +1 (Ex)
8)	Monk:		Unarmed Damage 1d10 (Ex)
	Ascetic:	Natural Armor +1 (Ex)
	Ascetic:	Mind Shielding (Ex)
9)	Monk:		Fast Movement 60' (Ex)
	Monk:		Flurry of Blows III (Ex)
	Monk:		Improved Evasion (Ex)
	Ascetic:	AC Bonus +7 (Su)
10)	Monk:		AC Bonus +2 (Ex)
	Monk:		Ki Strike Lawful (Su)
	Monk:		Slow Fall 50' (Ex)
	Ascetic:	Exalted Strike +2 Good (Su)
	Ascetic:	Damage Reduction 5/Magic (Su)
```
[/sblock]


----------



## Lord Wyrm (Dec 21, 2005)

Lictenhart: You'll have to clariy what the various exalted feats do, I don't have that book.  I do know what VoP does so you don't need to tell me that one.



			
				Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> How are HP being handled are we taking average HP's per level, rolling or some other method
> 
> And how much gold do we start with




HP will be half of die +1, Max Hit Die at 1st. So:
d4=3
d6=4
d8=5
d10=6
d12=7

Gold will be 49000.



			
				MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> I'd be interested in joining this as well.  I'm thinking of barbarian/something.  Perhaps a barbarian/scout or barbarian/druid?
> 
> Or maybe something a little more out there, like a hexblade/warlock.




Feel free to join.  Always room for one more.  



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> Warlock is 3/4 BaB, right?
> 
> Assuming that, and assuming we'll be using fractional-advancement for BaB and Saves your bab will be:
> 
> ...



Correct.



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> Feral template... the most broken +1 LA out there.  Nice choice, although neither it nor the winged template are in his list of allowed books, so you'd better run it by him.



Those templates are fine, the combo would almost scare me but I just saw the answer to Pun-Pun, that made me shiver.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> The rules are silent on that.  It'd be up to our DM.



The double move to get both hands aflame is allowed.



			
				Azaar said:
			
		

> 1) Hit Dice:  Is this character going to have 4 HD from classes, or 10 HD?
> 
> 2) Saves:  Do I compare the base saves from Fighter 4 against Warlock 10?
> 
> ...



Pyrex answered these as I would have.


----------



## Endur (Dec 21, 2005)

Lord Wyrm: 
What about classes from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed? 

Paragon classes and variant classes from D&D's Unearthed Arcana books?

The Monster of Legend Template from Monster Manual 2?


----------



## Lord Wyrm (Dec 21, 2005)

Endur said:
			
		

> Lord Wyrm: What about material from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed or D&D's Unearthed Arcana books?



Unearthed Arcana is fine.  I should get Arcana Evolved for christmas so that will be reviewed for inclusion by the following day and I'll make a decision.


----------



## Azaar (Dec 21, 2005)

The more I look at Pyrex's answer, the more I honestly, truly believe I'd be better off just being a regular ol' human.  Far less complicated that way.  The templates and all would be nice, but the math looks like it'll take me a while to figure out, and I spend enough time trying to write up potential character concepts without being driven insane by having to do a bunch of math on top of it all.

Anyway, Lord Wyrm, I'll try to get something ready for your perusal in the next day or so.


----------



## Endur (Dec 21, 2005)

Human Barbarian 10/Warmain 10

ARN

Using the Bear Totem Barbarian variant from Unearthed Arcana and the Warmain class from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.

Lo, there do I see my father 
Lo, there do I see my mother and my sisters 
and my brothers 
Lo, there do I see the line of my people back 
to the beginning 
Lo, they do call to me 
They bid me take my place among them 
in the Halls of Valhalla 
Where the brave may live forever...

[sblock]
ARN
Human Barbarian 10/Warmain 10
Str 18 (pointbuy 10 +2 levels)
Dex 14 (pointbuy 6)
Con 14 (pointbuy 6)
Int 14 (pointbuy 6)
Wis 14 (pointbuy 6)
Chr 14 (pointbuy 6)

BAB: +10
bull rush: +8/+10 while raging
grapple: +18/+24 while raging
sunder:

HP: 10d12 +20(con) +3 (toughness feat) +4 (sturdy feat)=  (+24 while raging)

Armor Class: 10 +1 Dex +9 armor= 20 (18 while raging)

init: +2
Fort: +7 base +2 con +2 feat=+9 (+2 while raging)
Reflex: +3 base + 2 dex =+5
Will: +4 base +2 wis =+6  (+2 while raging)

feats: power attack(1st), cleave(human 1st), Improved Bull Rush(3rd), Combat Brute (6th Complete Warrior), Shock Trooper (9th Complete Warrior) 
Barbarian Feats: Toughness, Improved Grapple, Great Fortitude
Warmain Feats: Weapon Focus Great Sword (2nd), Weapon Specialization Great Sword (4th), Improved Sunder (6th), Great Cleave (10th)

Warmain: Feats as above.  Sturdy at first level (+x2 con bonus hit points).  Crushing Blow 1/day at 8th level (one attack a day is an automatic critical if it hits)

Bear Totem Barbarian 
Give up Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Receive instead: Toughness, Improved Grapple, Great Fortitude, and +4 bonus on grapple checks while raging.

Equipment (49,000 gp total): 
Viking Long Ship: 10,000 gp
Horses: ? gp
Gear: ? gp
+1 Adamantine Great Sword: 5050gp
+1 Full plate: 2650 gp

Great Sword: +16 to hit, 2d6 + 9 damage  (while raging +2 to hit, +3 to damage)

Typical combat sequence (cleaving when foes fall): 
When Charging:
Charge enemy: power attack -10 to ac, +20 to damage
2nd round Full attack: power attack: -10 to hit, +30 to damage
3rd and subsequent rounds full attack: power attack: -10 to hit, +20 to damage

If charged:
full attack: power attack: -10 to hit, +20 to damage

[/sblock]


----------



## Wrahn (Dec 21, 2005)

I am playing with something a little exotic at the moment:

Wiz 1/Monstrous Humanoid HD 1
Wiz 2/Monstrous Humanoid HD 2
Wiz 3/Thri-kreen Level Adjust 1
Wiz 4/Thri-kreen Level Adjust 2
Wiz 5/Half Dragon Level Adjust 1
Wiz 6/Half Dragon Level Adjust 2
Wiz 7/Half Dragon Level Adjust 3
Wiz 8/Swashbuckler 1
Wiz 9/Swashbuckler 2
Wiz 10/Swashbuckler 3

My real concern is he is coming out with 76 HP which is a little low, low enough that he can easily kill himself in a full attack.  I may need to rethink the gross offense too (Sitting at 4x +20(1d4 +16)/+15(1d6 +10) but with arcane strike can go to somthing like (4x +25 (6d4 +16)/+20(6d4 +10) which is something like 149 damage on average).


----------



## Wrahn (Dec 21, 2005)

Endur said:
			
		

> Using the Bear Totem Barbarian variant from Unearthed Arcana, the Human Paragon class from Unearthed Arcana, and the Monster of Legend template from Monster Manual 2.




Where did you get the level adjust for the Monster of Legend?  (not disputing your numbers, just curious)

and

not to rain on your parade, but the monster of legend Template can only be applied to animals, beasts, monstrous beasts and monstrous humanoids.  Humans ain't one of those, I think you are going to have to get special dispensation from the GM to take that template on your character.

If people don't have the MM2, the run down for the monster of legend is somethign like +5 Natural Armor, a list of special attacks which the Monster of legend choses one (Frightful presence in Endur's case), a list of special defenses which the Monster of Legend chooses 2 (Fast Healing 5 and immune to mind effecting spells in Endur's case), +3 to all saves, +10 Str, +6 Dex, +10 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha and improved initiative and Multiattack as bonus feats.


----------



## Endur (Dec 21, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Where did you get the level adjust for the Monster of Legend?  (not disputing your numbers, just curious)




The +7 LA is in the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion handbook that WOTC released.  They had LA's for various monsters and templates and the updated DR conversions.


----------



## Shayuri (Dec 21, 2005)

Just wanted to toss an idea out for everyone, including myself, to gnaw on.

If we're playing an Ascension style game, and that seems to be the case, it's worth pointing out that we ought to design our characters with the idea that one day they will be -gods-. All this half-dragon fiendish dire prawn templates are cool and all...but it might be a little weird for such an alien being to try to attract worshipers. 

One thing I've been chewing on is the idea of a central theme to the character...like, "If he was a god NOW, what would he be a god OF?" and so on. I figure it might save time down the line.

Just a thought.

On the other hand, it's a lot of fun to see the ideas pour out. 

Cheers!


----------



## Festy_Dog (Dec 21, 2005)

Lord Wyrm, am I safe to assume 40 point buy is the final decision? And on the subject of animal companions, should we calculate their hp the same way as is done for characters? And do we just take their stats from the books or are they subject to some form of stat generation?

On a separate note, I'm in need of an opinion or two from anyone willing to advise on a small issue I've come across during character construction. I've decided to go through with the druid/bard build, but I can't decide on an animal companion. The decision I've come down to is either a deinonychus or a brown bear. A brown bear has the feel of a sound choice, but I'm attracted to the deinonychus for the interesting combination it would make with a druid/bard gestalt. Normally I'd take the dienonychus without a second thought, but it feels to have too few HD for it's level -6 classification. Any suggestions?


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 21, 2005)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> One thing I've been chewing on is the idea of a central theme to the character...like, "If he was a god NOW, what would he be a god OF?"




All those poor half-dragon fiendish dire prawns have to pray to someone, right?  

Seriously though I share your concerns.  On a practical level as well as an aesthetic one.

i.e. Gestalt characters gain a pretty significant powerup from increased versatility.  Putting a template on the other side of the gestalt is, generally speaking, a stronger power-up.


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 21, 2005)

Festy_Dog said:
			
		

> Normally I'd take the dienonychus without a second thought, but it feels to have too few HD for it's level -6 classification. Any suggestions?




Compared to the Wolf animal companion (arguably the strongest 1st level choice) the Deinonychus companion of a 10th level Druid has 2 fewer HD, and does not gain the Devotion or Multiattack abilities.  (of course, Multiattack doesn't help the Wolf anyway...)

However, it's Large (i.e., has reach), has better ability scores, gets five attacks on a full attack, and with Pounce it can make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Seems more than reasonable to me.  Especially when you cast _Animal Growth_.


----------



## Wrahn (Dec 21, 2005)

A few things:

I think the actions of our characters, more than how they are built, are going to define what kind of gods we are.  Starting at tenth level means there is plenty of time to roleplay that.

Level adjust is directly additive to a character, a 4th level Barbarian/wizard gestalt character is not the same thing as a 4th level Barbarian/4th level Wizard normal eighth level character, less hit points, less BAB, less saves.  But a 4th level Barbarian/Half-Celestial gestalt IS the same thing as a 4th Barbarian Half celestial eighth level character.

I have seen LA adjust (not including racial hitdice) be multiplied by 1.5 (round down) for Gestalt which I don't think is overly punative considering all the disadvantages for level adjust are removed by gestalt. (ie a Thri-Kreen has 2 racial HD and 2 LA for an ECL of 4, under that system, it would have 2 racial HD and a LA of 3 for an ECL of 5)

I think I am moving away from the thri-kreen, he is too lopsided to really be fun.  Currently I am thinking a Dire Feral Fiendish Prawn of Legend, if I could only find the Prawn's ECL.

Seriously though, the Gestalt rules say you should not include hybrid prestige classes, listing the Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge and the Arcane trickster as examples, but what about the kind of hybrids like the Bladesinger or the spellsword (which get half spell level advancement)?


----------



## Endur (Dec 21, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> i.e. Gestalt characters gain a pretty significant powerup from increased versatility.  Putting a template on the other side of the gestalt is, generally speaking, a stronger power-up.




A good point.  I modified my post on the legendary barbarian above so that Monster of Legend LA +7 is multiplied by 1.5 round down per Wrahn's suggestion and becomes LA +10.


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 21, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Seriously though, the Gestalt rules say you should not include hybrid prestige classes, listing the Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge and the Arcane trickster as examples, but what about the kind of hybrids like the Bladesinger or the spellsword (which get half spell level advancement)?




For the gestalt game I ran I un-banned the hybrid classes, but "balanced" PrC's by saying that PrC levels weren't gestalted; only base-class levels.

On another note:  I'm pondering the following variant for my Druid/Incarnate:
Druid
The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter. 

Gain
Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger). 

Lose
Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Dec 21, 2005)

Are there gods currently?  If I were to play, say, a cleric, would my god be pissed about me trying to join his ranks?


----------



## Bloodweaver1 (Dec 21, 2005)

Ok, I got three ideas. I didn't see anything on races so hopefully there won't be any problems. 

First: Warforged PW 6 & W. Juggernaunt 4 // Rogue 10

Second: Halfling Rogue 5 & M. Thrower 5 // PW 5 & Invis Blade 5

Third: Dwarven Fighter 6 & Reaping Mauler 4 // Monk 10

I might make changes to the first one.
The second one is good to go (once i submit the build) but I am not aware if anyone submitted a rogue yet. 
The third one is still a work in progress, but its a fun one.   

Let me know if you think anyone of these will fit into the 'God' concept.
Thanks

-Blood


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 21, 2005)

Updated Charater sheet, all I need to do now is finalise equipment 

*Talon 'Razorclaw'*
Male Winged Feral Human[sblock] 
Classes:[sblock]
Lvl 1:  Barbarian/Warlock
Lvl 2:  Feral/Warlock
Lvl 3:  Winged/Warlock
Lvl 4:  Winged/Warlock
Lvl 5:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 6:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 7:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 8:  Fighter/Warlock
Lvl 9:  Pyrokineticist/Warlock
Lvl 10: Pyrokineticist/Warlock[/sblock]
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Deity: 
Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Base Speed: 50' 70'(Perfect)

Str: 24 (+7) 6 pts  +2 levels +4 Belt
Dex: 20 (+5) 10 pts +2 Gloves
Con: 18 (+4) 10 pts
Int: 10 (+0) 6 pts
Wis: 14 (+2) 2 pts
Cha: 14 (+2) 6 pts  

HP:  93(1d12 +4d10 +3d6 +2d8 +40 Con)

AC: 29 (10 base, +5 Dex, +6 Nat Arm, +8 Arm)

Saves: 
For: 12 (+8 Base +4 Con)
Ref: 10 (+5.14 Base +5 Dex)
Wil:  9 (+7.5 Base +2 Wis)

Init: +9 

Base attack bonus: +8/+3 (8.75 Base)

*Attacks: * 
+13 (+8 BAB +5 Dex) *Eldricth Blast * 5d6
+16/+16 (+8 BAB +7 Str + 1 (WF) *Claws* 2d6 +2d6(Hand Afire) +2d6(Psionic Fist) +5d6(Hideous Blow) +7(Str) +2(WS)

*Skills*
Craft(Alchemy) (1 rank)
Concentration 17 (13 ranks +4 Con)
Intimidate 12 (10 ranks +2 Cha)
Knowledge(Psionics) (2 ranks)
Listen 5 (3 ranks +2 Wis)
Survival 5 (3 ranks +2 Wis)
Use Magical Device 15 (13 ranks +2 Cha)

*Feats:*[sblock]
1st   : Wild Talent
1st(b): Psionic Fist
3rd   : Empower Spell-Like Ability(Eldritch Blast)
5th(b): Weapon Focus(Claws)
6th   : Improved Natural Attack(Claws)
6th(b): Improved Init
8th(b): Weapon Specialisation(Claws)
9th   : Maximise Spell-Like Ability(Eldritch Blast)[/sblock]

*Equipment:*
+3 Mithral Breastplate (+8Arm +5MDB -1ACP 15%SF 15lbs) 13200gp
Belt of Giants Strength(+4) 16000gp
Brooch of Shielding 1500gp
Fingerless Gloves of Dexterity +2 4000gp 
Ring of Sustenance 2500gp

Treasure:  11800gp (49000gp)
Weight Carried:  15lbs

*Feral Template Abilities*[sblock]
+4 Str -2 Dex +2 Con -4 Int +2 Wis
+10' Landspeed
+6 Natural Armour
Claws (1d8)
Improved Grab(Ex)[sblock]If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.[/sblock]
Pounce(Ex)[sblock]When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.[/sblock]
Rake(Ex)[sblock]A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.[/sblock]
Fast Healing 4
Darkvision 90'
[/sblock]
*Winged Template Abilities*[sblock]
Flight Speed = Landspeed +20'(Perfect)
+4 Dex +2 Wis 
[/sblock]
*Pyrokineticist Abilities*[sblock]
Fire Lash(Ps)Create a 15' whip of flame (move action) 1d8 damage
Fire Adaption(Ex) +4 save against fire and heat spells and effects Fire Resistance 10
Hand Afire(Ps) Engulf 1 hand in flame (move action) 2d6 damage[/sblock]
*Warlock Abilities*[sblock]
Eldritch Blast (SU) 5d6 
Detect Magic at will
DR 2/Cold Iron
Deceive Item
Fiendish Resilience 1
[/sblock]

*Invocations*
Least:
Eldritch Spear
Hideous Blow
See the Unseen

Lesser:
Flee the Scene
Walk Unseen
?

Height: 6'2"
Weight: 200 lbs
Eyes: 
Hair: Black
Skin: Olive

*Appearance:*
Talon is an imposing sight to behold whether he's speeding thru the air, like a mighty bird of prey
of racing along the grounds like a charging lion.  Due to the magical experimentaion that Talon was
subjected to, Talon whole body was altered into a more basic feral preadatory form, Talon possesses
lethal looking claws on both his hands and feet, bird-like wings sprout from his back, and razor 
sharp teeth gleem in his mouth.

*Background:*
Talon was born into the [insert name] tribe on the mountain steepes of [insert name], during his naming
day ceremony (age 13) his tribe was attacked by the forces of an evil wizard, Talon returned in time to
kill afew of the soldiers and to be captured along with the other surviving children.

What followed next was 4 years of misery and pain, as Talon's body was twisted by the wizards fell magic 
as he sought to create the perfect warrior, unlike many of the young one from his tribe Talon survived, 
and was ensnared by the Wizards magic and forced to do his bidding, and perpetuate the cylce of misery
and dispair visited upon Talon and his tribe.

After 4 years of forced service, Talons chance at revenge finally appeared, in the form of an adventuring
group who had come to destroy the evil wizards plans, during the fight with the adventurers the enchant
controlling Talons mind was lifted, vowing to end the Wizards misery Talon joined up with the group and 
managed to get them deep within the Wizards lair, by pretending to have captured them.

That night Talon fullfilled his sacred vow and duty and ended the life of the evil Wizard. 

After 4 years of spreading misery and pain Talon vowed in his heart to hunt down others of the wizards
kind and break the yoke of such ones, and thus he came to join with the brave adventuring party, and 
became a scourge to evil and tyranny.[/sblock]


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 21, 2005)

You can't full attack with an Eldritch Blast (EB is a Standard Action, not an Attack), so you attack entry there should be +13 instead of +13/+8.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Dec 21, 2005)

Concepts:

1)  Orc Barbarian/Hexblade gestalted with Rogue or Bard.   This guy would be all about fighting dirty, cursing his oppenents, and seizing every advantage he can.  Bard spells like Fear, Eyebite, and Nightmare would accent the "evil eye" theme.  He wouldn't necessarily be evil, but you sure wouldn't want to get on his bad side.  Sort of a vengeance theme going on with this guy.

2)  Human or Elven Warmage gestalted with Marshal and Bard.  He would focus on battlefield tactics, leading men from afar while raining down death with his spells.

3)   Dwarven Paladin/Defender gestalted with Cleric.  The definition of "tank".


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 21, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> You can't full attack with an Eldritch Blast (EB is a Standard Action, not an Attack), so you attack entry there should be +13 instead of +13/+8.



Thanks for that


----------



## Festy_Dog (Dec 21, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Seems more than reasonable to me. Especially when you cast Animal Growth.




Many thanks there Pyrex, very helpful and much appreciated.


----------



## Wrahn (Dec 21, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> For the gestalt game I ran I un-banned the hybrid classes, but "balanced" PrC's by saying that PrC levels weren't gestalted; only base-class levels.
> 
> On another note:  I'm pondering the following variant for my Druid/Incarnate:
> Druid
> ...




Ungestalting Prc does solve problems, but seems punative.  Comparing a Rogue/Wizard to an Arcane trickster, the rogue/wizard has a better BAB, better hit points, better skills, slightly better special abilities (depending on level). The rogue/wizard is easier to qualify for, seems unbalanced against the prestige class.

The only thing that would concern me about the druid abilities you have outlined there would be the + Wisdom to AC and that being the prime spell casting stat as well.  Perhaps something similar, like Cha to AC or Con?  Just an idea.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Dec 21, 2005)

Lord Wyrm: Sorry. Here they are for you:

Exalted Feats:

Nymph's Kiss 
Benefit: +2 circumstance bonus to Charisma-related checks, +1 bonus to saves vs spells and spell-like abilities; starting with the level it's taken, +1 skill point per level.

Sacred Vow
Benefit: +2 perfection bonus to Diplomacy

Vow of Poverty
Prerequisites: Sacred Vow
Benefit: Ascetic special abilities

Nimbus of Light
Benefit: I can shed light as a common lamp, and extinguish and reactivate it as a free action; +2 circumstance bonus to Diplomacy and Sense Motive when interacting with good creatures.

Sanctify Ki Strike
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Strike (magic), Cha 15
Benefit: Unarmed strike deals +1 damage to evil creatures, or +1d4 damage to evil outsiders and undead; it is considered good for the purposes of DR.

Fist of the Heavens
Prerequisites:  Stunning Fist, Sanctify Ki Strike, Wis 15
Benefit: +2 to Stunning Fist DC when used vs evil; if the attack succedes, the victim is staggered for 1 round after it is stunned.

Intuitive Attack
Prerequisites: BAB +1
Benefit: With a simple weapon of my size or a natural weapon I can use my Wis bonus instead of my Str bonus on attack rolls.

Holy Ki Strike
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Strike (lawful), Sanctify Ki Strike, Cha 15
Benefit: Unarmed Strike does +2d6 holy damage to evil creatures, it doesn't stack with Sanctify Ki Strike; it is considered holy for the purposes of DR.


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 22, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Ungestalting Prc does solve problems, but seems punative.  Comparing a Rogue/Wizard to an Arcane trickster, the rogue/wizard has a better BAB, better hit points, better skills, slightly better special abilities (depending on level). The rogue/wizard is easier to qualify for, seems unbalanced against the prestige class.



Obviously some PrC's are better than others.  Part of the reason I chose that particular ruling was to make PrC's a little rarer.  *shrug*



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> The only thing that would concern me about the druid abilities you have outlined there would be the + Wisdom to AC and that being the prime spell casting stat as well.  Perhaps something similar, like Cha to AC or Con?  Just an idea.




Given that I lose the ability to use Dragonscale medium (and potentially heavy) armor, Wis to AC doesn't seem that out there to me.  Especially when you figure the actual cost, which is Wild Shape.


----------



## Wrahn (Dec 22, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Given that I lose the ability to use Dragonscale medium (and potentially heavy) armor, Wis to AC doesn't seem that out there to me.  Especially when you figure the actual cost, which is Wild Shape.




Being able to concentrate on one stat is a big deal (at least in my way of thinking).  *Shrug*


----------



## Azaar (Dec 22, 2005)

It's no different than being a spellcaster and concentrating on their primary stat for spellcasting, whether it be Int for wizards, Wis for clerics and druids, or Cha for sorcerers.  In that, wizards wild up with a pretty good deal, considering that they get more skill points as they improve their Int while also boosting the save DCs for their spells.

I am curious, though, Pyrex:  where did you get this druid variant from?  I thought perhaps it was the druidic avenger from _Unearthed Arcana_, but that's more a druid/barbarian hybrid.

And Lord Wyrm:  I've decided on my concept -- I think you'll find it a very interesting choice.  I'll fix up stats and the like tomorrow evening -- Friday evening at the latest.


----------



## garlicnation (Dec 22, 2005)

Is there room for another. I have run a high level campaign, but have never been in one. Working on charachter concept now.


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 22, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Being able to concentrate on one stat is a big deal (at least in my way of thinking).  *Shrug*




Except I can't just concentrate on one high stat.  I also need a good Con for my Incarnate levels.


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 22, 2005)

Azaar said:
			
		

> I am curious, though, Pyrex:  where did you get this druid variant from?  I thought perhaps it was the druidic avenger from _Unearthed Arcana_, but that's more a druid/barbarian hybrid.




It's one of the 'other variants' listed in UA, found here in the online SRD.


----------



## Shayuri (Dec 22, 2005)

Hmm! It's going to be hard to come up with a character idea that's not at least partially similar to someone else's...

So far I have two main ideas.

A monk/sorceror, who emphasizes self-reliance and the importance of knowing and using every aspect of oneself...body, spirit and mind. Inner power and outer power. He'd be a horrifying AC monster, plus a damage hound with Arcane Strike and flurry of blows. And Haste. Ow.

A wizard/warlock...inspired a little by tales of Merlin, in that his heritage is tainted. It is his own abilities that spurs him to undertake magical study, and he develops both his inner power and his learned magic at once. The synergy should be clear enough... I considered sorceror/wizard, for just plain huge magic might...but I think the class abilities of a warlock suit a wizard better. Self healing, DR, d6 HD, etc...they help shore up the wizard's physical vulnerability. The eldritch blast is weaker than most blasties, but it's a reliable fallback attack, and good for encounters that don't warrant the expenditure of precious memorized magic. I also see this concept as perhaps dipping into Loremaster and even Archmage, as it advances. And through Warlock, becoming quite the maker of items as well.

Both ideas are primary casters, though the monk/sorceror would probably focus on buffs and support more than blasties.

I've other ideas too, including some clerical ones, in case holes develop in the party that need filling.


----------



## Lord Wyrm (Dec 22, 2005)

Endur said:
			
		

> I'd like to play a legendary barbarian if that is ok. I used Wrahn's suggestion that LA in gestalt is mutiplied by 1.5 rounded down, so that +7 LA for Monster of Legend becomes +10 LA.



You don't have to adjust the LA on templates, and with the freed up +3 you can find a way to meet the prerequisites for the template.  The writeup looks good and I especially like the War Chant, its my favorite.



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> Just wanted to toss an idea out for everyone, including myself, to gnaw on.
> 
> If we're playing an Ascension style game, and that seems to be the case, it's worth pointing out that we ought to design our characters with the idea that one day they will be -gods-. All this half-dragon fiendish dire prawn templates are cool and all...but it might be a little weird for such an alien being to try to attract worshipers.
> 
> ...



I was wondering if someone would catch on.  



> Lord Wyrm, am I safe to assume 40 point buy is the final decision? And on the subject of animal companions, should we calculate their hp the same way as is done for characters? And do we just take their stats from the books or are they subject to some form of stat generation?



40 point buy looks to be the decision, animal companions will recieve the same hp as characters and can have 28 point buy to work with.  (I'd usually roll for them but I'll see if this makes things simpler)



			
				MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> Are there gods currently? If I were to play, say, a cleric, would my god be pissed about me trying to join his ranks?



The are indeed gods, as for them being angry it would depend on the god.  Syira would be rather irate as would Kaloren.
The gods are here:
[sblock]Dieties are as follows:
Shadow- The Weapons Lord, Master of Silent Things; True Neutral god of darkness, last of the elder gods, his concerns are unfathomable by his human servants who often receive prophetic dreams. No domains for clerics, he has something else to compensate. All weapons are favored.

Drake- The Knowing One, Walker Between Worlds, Wounded One; Choatic Good god of wisdom, one of the Ascended Ones, he cares for the poor and downtrodden and is responsible for keeping humanity safe from Syira. Domains are Good, Healing, War, and Sun. Favored weapon is the greatsword.

Kaloren- The Watcher, the Patient, Lord of Patricide; True Neutral god death, one of the Ascended Ones, keeps the records of the dead and dying, once responsible for destruction of elven kingdom when mortal. Domains are Death, Destruction, and Knowledge. Favored weapon is the longbow.

Syira- Lady of Blood, The Bloody Queen, Harbinger; Chaotic Evil goddess of agony, One of the Ascended Ones, concentrates efforts on torture of mortals, mental domination, and dragging heaven into the Abyss. Domains are Evil, Chaos, Destruction, and Trickery. Favored weapon is the quaterstaff.

Aracus- Magelord, Seeker of Ways, Heaven's Tear; Chaotic Neutral god of magic, Unknown Origin, his concerns are bringing the knowledge of magic to all beings and developing a way to become Overgod. Domains are Magic, Chaos, and Fire. Favored weapon is the dagger.

Arlon- Warmaster, Kingmaker, the Loyalist; Lawful Neutral god of war, valor, and tyranny, Risen Mortal, his concerns are the propagation of war so as to find the valorous and the meak. Domains are War, Air, Law, and Strength. Favored weapon is the bastard sword.

These are the greater deities, if you want a particular niche deity I could find a few lesser or intermeadiate candidates to choose from.[/sblock]



			
				Bloodweaver1 said:
			
		

> Ok, I got three ideas. I didn't see anything on races so hopefully there won't be any problems.



Warforged are not a problem, they are a creation of Aracus and appeared roughly ten-thousand years ago.  As mentioned in Eberron they have no upper age limit so a few of the first warforged still exist.  They have a way of self replication/reproduction so there are newer warforged.



			
				Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> Lord Wyrm: Sorry. Here they are for you:
> _snip_



Thank you.



			
				Azaar said:
			
		

> And Lord Wyrm: I've decided on my concept -- I think you'll find it a very interesting choice. I'll fix up stats and the like tomorrow evening -- Friday evening at the latest.



I await tham eagerly.



			
				garlicnation said:
			
		

> Is there room for another. I have run a high level campaign, but have never been in one. Working on charachter concept now.



Always room for more.



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> Hmm! It's going to be hard to come up with a character idea that's not at least partially similar to someone else's...
> 
> So far I have two main ideas.
> 
> ...



I like the concepts, I had not thought of warlock/wizard as particularly viable but you bring up some interesting points.


----------



## Endur (Dec 22, 2005)

Ok, lets say the +3 LA that's freed up is used to allow my human barbarian to qualify for the Monster of Legend template and become a Legendary Barbarian.  



			
				Lord Wyrm said:
			
		

> You don't have to adjust the LA on templates, and with the freed up +3 you can find a way to meet the prerequisites for the template.  The writeup looks good and I especially like the War Chant, its my favorite.


----------



## Shayuri (Dec 22, 2005)

Lord Wyrm, what are your thoughts/feelings about the Leadership feat?

If it makes any difference, my idea was to have the cohort/followers play largely behind the scenes roles, with the followers basically being a spy network and the cohort the spymaster that coordinates and collects reports...as well as maintains a place of residence.


----------



## Pyrex (Dec 22, 2005)

I'm not done yet, but here's a draft for review:

[sblock]

```
[B]Name:[/B]  
[B]Class:[/B] Druid/Incarnate Gestalt
[B]Race:[/B]   Human
[B]Size:[/B]   Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Alignment:[/B] NG
[B]Deity:[/B]  

[B]Str:[/B] 14 +2  ( 6p.)          [B]Level:[/B] Drd 10 / Inc 10
[B]Dex:[/B] 14 +2  ( 6p.)          [B]BAB:[/B] +8                [B]HP:[/B] 73 (10d8+30) 
[B]Con:[/B] 16 +3  (10p.)          [B]Grapple:[/B] +10           [b]XP:[/b] 50000
[B]Int:[/B] 14 +2  ( 6p.)          [B]Speed:[/B] 60' 
[B]Wis:[/B] 18 +4  (10p. +2 Lvl)   [B]Init:[/B] +2        
[B]Cha:[/B] 10 +0  ( 2p.)          [B]ACP:[/B] -0         

               [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]          10    +0    +0    +2    +0    +0     +8    20
[B]Touch:[/B] 20          [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 20


                   [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                7    +3   +0     +10
[B]Ref:[/B]                 3    +2   +0      +5
[B]Will:[/B]                7    +4   +0     +11

[B]Weapon                  Attack    Damage     Critical[/B]


[B]Languages:[/B] Auran, Aquan, Common, Druidic, Ignan, Sylvan, Terran

[B]Feats:[/B] Bonus Essentia, Double Chakra(Shoulders), Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Penetration

[b]Class Features, Druid:[/b]
  AC Bonus (2 + WisMod)
  Animal Companion
  Fast Movement +30'
  Favored Enemy (Abberation    +6)
  Favored Enemy (Undead        +4)
  Favored Enemy (Evil OUtsider +2)
  Nature Sense
  Resist Natures Lure
  Swift Tracker
  Track
  Trackless Step
  Venom Immunity
  Wild Empathy
  Woodland Stride

[b]Class Features, Incarnte:[/b]
  Detect Evil (at will)
  Open Chakras - Crown, Feet, Hands, Arms, Brow, Shoulders
  Expanded Meld Capacity +1
  Incarnum Radiance 2/day (+3 to AC for 3+ConMod Rounds)
  Rapid Meldshaping 1/day
  Share Incarnum Radiance (Share Radiance effect with allies within 30')

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 83(91)   [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 13
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]

Concentration             12    +3    +0   +15
Diplomacy                  8    +0    +0    +8
Handle Animal              5    +0    +0    +5
Heal                      10    +4    +0   +14
Kn(Nature)                 5    +2    +2    +9
Kn(Planes)                 5    +2    +0    +7
Listen                    10    +4    +0   +14
Spellcraft                10    +2    +0   +12
Speak Language*            3
Spot                      10    +4    +0   +14
Survival                  10    +4    +2   +16


*Cross-class Skill

[B]Equipment:                 Cost  Weight[/B]

  Explorers Outfit          0gp    0lb

[B]Total[/B]:          49,800gp    0lb        
 
                           [B]Lgt   Med   Hvy    Lift    Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]                 58   116   175     350     875


[b]Spells/Day:	0    1    2     3    4    5   [/b]
                6+0  4+1  4+1   3+1  3+1  2+0 

[b]Prepared Spells:[/b]
  Lvl 0: Create Water, CMW, Detect Magic x2, Mending, Read Magic

  Lvl 1: CLW, Endure Elements, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Speak w/ Animals

  Lvl 2: Animal Messenger, Barkskin, Fog Cloud, Resist Energy, <Restoration

  Lvl 3: Call Lighting, >Magic Fang, Pro: Energy, Speak w/ Plants

  Lvl 4: CSW, Flame Strike, Freedom of Movement, Giant Vermin

  Lvl 5: Animal Growth, Death Ward

[b]Soulmelds[/b]:          6
[b]Essentia Pool[/b]:     12
[b]Essentia Capacity[/b]:  3

[b]Currently Shaped[/b]:

Crown:
  Crystal Helm (Bound), Essentia: 3
  +2 vs Charm, +Essentia Deflection to AC
  Bind: Melee Attacks gain [Force] descriptor

Brow
  Truthseeker Goggles (Bound), Essentia: 3
  +2 + 2*Essentia to Gather Info, Search, Sense Motive
  Bind: Darkvision 60'

Shoulders
  Mantle of Flame, Essentia: 0
  d6 + d6*Essentia Fire Shield
  Bind: Flame adjacent squares as Std Action, Ref Half

  Theraputic Mantle (Bound), Essentia: 3
  Heal additonal SpellLevel + 2*Essentia when healed
  Bind: +CLvl*Essentia when casting Healing spells

Throat
  Dissolving Spittle, Essentia: 0
  d6 + d6/Essentia Range Touch 30'

Waist
  Vitality Belt, Essentia: 3
  +4 to Con checks & Con based Skill checks
  +Lvl*Essentia HP

[b]During Combat[/b]: 
  Move 3 Essentia from Truthseeker Goggles to Mantle of Flame.
  Move 3 Essentia from Theraputic Mantle to Dissolving Spittle (and back) as needed.
```
[/sblock]


----------



## garlicnation (Dec 23, 2005)

Ok, i have two ideas that you may find interesting. A monk/cleric, or a Rogue/paladin. Tell me what fits and i will roll it up.


----------



## Lord Wyrm (Dec 23, 2005)

Endur said:
			
		

> Ok, lets say the +3 LA that's freed up is used to allow my human barbarian to qualify for the Monster of Legend template and become a Legendary Barbarian.



As mentioned by Wrahn the monster of Legend template can only be applied to animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids, humans can not qualify.  Use the extra 3 levels on that line to pick up a monstrous humanoid race, I would consider the Goliaths from Races of Stone, they only have LA +1 and no racial HD.



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> Lord Wyrm, what are your thoughts/feelings about the Leadership feat?
> 
> If it makes any difference, my idea was to have the cohort/followers play largely behind the scenes roles, with the followers basically being a spy network and the cohort the spymaster that coordinates and collects reports...as well as maintains a place of residence.



If you wanted the effect of behind the scenes followers just include them in your background.  I'm not going to allow a cohort for this size adventuring group, though you can come up with allies that you may of acquired in your adventures and I may bring them in during the adventure.  Include a class for them and a general level of power (higher than you, equal to you, lower than you.)

Pyrex: You should have 80 HP, otherwise everything looks good.

garlicnation: monk/cleric will probably work better for the whole campaign, the rogue/paladin will fit well early game but probably not later on.  If you really want to play a rogue/paladin then I can alter a few things and they will not have the problems.


----------



## Shayuri (Dec 23, 2005)

Thanks for the feedback! Just a few more questions, and I'll have some crunch ready.

First, I see you allow some races from Eberron. How about Changelings? I'm interested in picking up the Recaster PrC, and I've always enjoyed the changeling's penchant for subtlety and mischief. If allowed, do they have any background material in your campaign world?

Recaster PrC is detailed in Races of Eberron. 

Second, are there any rules I should observe when creating a 10th level spellbook for wizard levels? The usual +2 spells per level, plus any scrolls scribed works fine, but omits the possibility of discovered spellbooks and traded spells during one's travels...

Finally, are there any ECL 0 races in your campaign background that have an Int bonus? 

Thanks again!


----------



## Wrahn (Dec 23, 2005)

When I have run higher level game, I usually allow the following cost for wizards and additional spells in their spellbook:



			
				SRD 3.5 said:
			
		

> In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level x 50 gp.




scroll costs seem rather harsh.  I guess it just depends on how common other spell casters are and how free they are with trading spells.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Dec 23, 2005)

Are evil characters okay?  I'm working up that orc I mentioned earlier, and he just works so much better as a half-fiend.....


----------



## kingpaul (Dec 23, 2005)

I just stumbled upon this thread. Is there still room? Are the bloodlines from UA allowed? What about the racial paragons? I'm thinking a gold dragon bloodline paladin/fighter and/or cleric.


----------



## Lord Wyrm (Dec 23, 2005)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Thanks for the feedback! Just a few more questions, and I'll have some crunch ready.
> 
> First, I see you allow some races from Eberron. How about Changelings? I'm interested in picking up the Recaster PrC, and I've always enjoyed the changeling's penchant for subtlety and mischief. If allowed, do they have any background material in your campaign world?
> 
> ...



The changelings from Eberron are called "Faceless" and are a race created by Shadow within the last two or three centuries, the human scholars cannot narrow down the date any further than that.  The race with the name "Changeling" are immortal fey with powers over phantasms and other illusions, they are rather old and use the statline of a modified Leshay from ELH.

The rules Wrahn posted for copied spells is close to what I use.  I have altered the formula slightly:
_(Spell Level)(Spell Level)*30gp_
I think it works a little better with that formula.

I had ECL 0 with an Int bonus at one time and then a PC decided to drive them to extinction after a rather brutal war with them.  They were called Vitae and resembled small werebears, they were the only democratic society in their region and were slain by a collection of monarchists.  If you wish to design a new ECL 0 race with an Int bonus then feel free, I have more than a few areas they would be appropriate.



			
				MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> Are evil characters okay? I'm working up that orc I mentioned earlier, and he just works so much better as a half-fiend.....



Evil characters are okay, though I don't like the "playground bully" type of evil for PCs or important NPCs for that matter.



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> I just stumbled upon this thread. Is there still room? Are the bloodlines from UA allowed? What about the racial paragons? I'm thinking a gold dragon bloodline paladin/fighter and/or cleric.



There is always room.  Bloodlines are allowed, as are racial paragons.  The class combo works fine for me.


----------



## garlicnation (Dec 23, 2005)

alright, my monk/cleric is almost done, i have one question though. Will you allow the illumian race from races of destiny? If you dont have it you can contact me for info on the race. They are a LA+0.


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## Lord Wyrm (Dec 23, 2005)

garlicnation said:
			
		

> alright, my monk/cleric is almost done, i have one question though. Will you allow the illumian race from races of destiny? If you dont have it you can contact me for info on the race. They are a LA+0.



Illumians are allowed, they are slightly changed though.  They are from the plane of Shadow (not the diety) and have the _extraplanar _ subtype as well as Lowlight vision.


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## Endur (Dec 23, 2005)

Lord Wyrm said:
			
		

> As mentioned by Wrahn the monster of Legend template can only be applied to animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids, humans can not qualify.  Use the extra 3 levels on that line to pick up a monstrous humanoid race, I would consider the Goliaths from Races of Stone, they only have LA +1 and no racial HD.




The only problem with the Goliaths is that I don't really want to play a monstrous humanoid.  I want to play a human barbarian that is ascending into mythic status.

Hmmm, instead of Monster of Legend template, what about the Paragon template from the ELH?  What LA would you estimate that the Paragon template has?  The ELH says that the Paragon Mind Flayer is ECL 26, and a regular MindFlayer is ECL 15, so the LA for the template should be at least +11 (26-15) and less than +26.  

Since the character is level 10, he couldn't have all of the Paragon template, but he could have part of it with the idea that the rest of it would come as he levels in game.


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## kingpaul (Dec 23, 2005)

Endur said:
			
		

> What LA would you estimate that the Paragon template has?



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm


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## Azaar (Dec 23, 2005)

That, alas, doesn't give a level adjustment.  Just a CR.  The 3.5 update booklet never gave an LA, either.  Personally, that leads me to believe the Paragon template from the ELH is likely an epic-level template.  Just my guess, though.


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## garlicnation (Dec 24, 2005)

Here is my charachter, feel free to point out any flaws.

Backstory: Cryptcloud Khurstak is one of the elite sentries of the Cryptcloud cabal. Since birth he has been trained as a sentry. He was posted ouside the moat of the cabal because of his specialty, jumping. He can easily jump a gap that keeps enemies away. Whenever the cabal was attacked, he sounded the alarm, inflicted massive damae to the attackers, then jumped oveer the 25 foot wide moat to safety once the wizards started pelting the attackers with spells. It is said that with a single blow of his fist, he can kill a man, and the man next to him. Above all else, he respects his cabals and the law of it. He has left in order to train, and oneday return with powers, and secrets untold. Despite his lack of intelligence, his wisdom makes him a respected individual in the cabal, to where he one day hopes to return.

[sblock]
	
	



```
[B]Name:[/B] Cryptcloud Khurstak
[B]Class:[/B] monk 10/cleric 10
[B]Race:[/B] Illumian
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[b]Age:[/b] 40
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Alignment:[/B] LN
[B]Deity:[/B] Arlon

[B]Str:[/B] 16 +3 (10p.)     [B]Level:[/B] 10       [B]XP:[/B] 50000
[B]Dex:[/B] 16 +3 (10p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +7         [B]HP:[/B] 73 (10d8+20)
[B]Con:[/B] 14 +2 (6p.)      [B]Grapple:[/B] +10    [B]Dmg Red:[/B] 0/-
[B]Int:[/B]  8 -1 (0p.)      [B]Speed:[/B] 60'      [B]Spell Res:[/B] 0
[B]Wis:[/B] 21 +5 (13p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +3        [B]Spell Save:[/B] 15
[B]Cha:[/B]  9 -1 (1p.)      [B]ACP:[/B] -0         [B]Spell Fail:[/B] n/a

            [B]   Base  Armor  Sheild  Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]         10    +3     0       +3   0      +0   +7    23
[B]Touch:[/B] 20               [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 20

                  [B]   Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                7      +2   +3    12
[B]Ref:[/B]                 7      +3   +3    13
[B]Will:[/B]                7      +5   +3    15

[B]Weapon                      Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
Unarmed Strike               +12/+7   2d6+4      x2
Flurry of blows attack       12/12/7

[B]Languages:[/B] 
Common
Illumian

[B]Abilities:[/B]
Strength domain
      Law spells at +1 caster level
Law domain
      Supernatural strength 1/day
Rebuke Undead 2/day

[B]Feats:[/B]
Stunning fist (bonus)
Deflect arrows (bonus)
Improved disarm (bonus)
Power attack
Cleave
Weapon focus(unarmed strike)
Acrobatic

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 39 [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 13/6.5
[B]Skills                      Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Appraise                    0      -1   0     -1
Balance                     13     3    0     16
Bluff                       0      -1   0     -1
Climb                       0      3    2     5
Concentration               13     2    2     17
Craft                       0      -1   0     -1
Diplomacy                   0      -1   0     -1
Disguise                    0      -1   0     -1
Escape Artist               0      3    0     3
Forgery                     0      -1   0     -1
Gather Information          0      -1   0     -1
Heal                        0      5    2     7
Hide                        0      3    0     3
Intimidate                  0      -1   0     -1
Jump                        13     3    16    32
Listen                      0      5    2     7
Move Silently               0      3    0     3
Ride                        0      3    0     3
Search                      0      -1   0     -1
Sense Motive                0      5    2     7
Spot                        0      5    2     7
Survival                    0      5    2     7
Swim                        0      3    2     5
Use Rope                    0      3    0     3


[B]Equipment:                  Cost    Weight  Armor/Shield Bonus[/B]
Monk's garments             N/A     N/A
Holy symbol, silver        25gp    1lb
Spell component pouch
Amulet of mighty fists +1  6000gp  1lb
Cloak of Resistance +3     9000gp  1lb
Ring of protection +2      8000gp  n/a
Bracers of armor +3        9000gp  1lb
Helm of wisdom +2          4000gp  1lb
Monk's belt                13000gp 1lb

[B]Total Weight:[/B]67lb      [B]Money:[/B] 2000(most in a bank somewhere)gp 0sp 0cp

                       [B]Lgt   Med   Hvy  Lift  Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]            77    153   230  460   1150

[B]Age:[/B] 40
[B]Height:[/B] 5'8"
[B]Weight:[/B] 185lb
[B]Eyes:[/B] Brown
[B]Hair:[/B] None
[B]Skin:[/B] White
```

*Spells Per Day:*
*0:* 6
*1st:* 6+1
*2nd:* 5+1
*3rd:* 4+1
*4th:* 4+1
*5th:* 3+1

Typical spells prepared:
0: detect poison x3, read magic, detect magic, mending
1st: Divine favor x3, cure light x2, doom+Enlarge person
2nd: Cure moderate x3, Bulls strength, bears endurance+Bulls strength
3rd: Cure serious x2, create food and water, dispel magic+Magic circle against chaos
4th: Cure critical x2, Divine power, poison+spell immunity
5th: Flame strike, Greater command, summon monster V+Righteous Might

Class and racial abilities.
[sblock]
*Racial features:*

Type: Humanoid(human,  extraplanar).

Low-Light Vision (Ex): Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light. Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

Luminous Sigils (Su): The sigils that orbit an illumian’s head glow softly, providing illumination equal to that of a candle. Illumians can make their sigils disappear by concentrating for a moment (standard action), but they don't receive the sigils benefits and can’t use any special abilities granted by illuminan words while they’re doused. Restoring the sigils to visibility is a free action.

Glyphic resonance (ex): Illumians are the physical embodiment of a magical language, so they interact strangely with symbol-based spells. This group includes all spells whose names contain the world glyph, rune, sigil, or symbol. When an illuminan encounters such magic, one of two things happens. If the illumines caster level is lower than the caster level of the spell, he takes a -4 penalty to the saving throw. If the illumians caster level is higher, he is immune to the effect.

Power sigil Aesh: +2 bonus on strength chechs and strength-based skill checks
Power sigil Hoon:+2 bonus on wisdon checks, constitution checks, and Wisdon or constitution-based skill checks.

Illumian word “Aeshoon”: twice per day, the illumian can spend a turn or rebuke attempt as a swift action to gain a bonus on weapon damage rolls equal to her Wisdom bonus.  This effect lasts until the beginning of her next turn, and it applies only to weapons with which she has selected the weapon focus feat.

Final utterance: UP TO THE DM

+2 racial bonus on saves against spells with the shadow descriptor: the illumines magical heritage is tied to the plane of shadow.

*Class features:*
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Still Mind (Ex): A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.

Ki Strike (Su): At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.

Purity of Body (Ex): At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.

Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice her current monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.
[/sblock]
[/sblock]


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## garlicnation (Dec 24, 2005)

Wow, that thing is scary. With his strength domain ability, he can make a flurry of blows attack at 10/10/5 with damage of 2d6+27 on each attack, with the possiblity to cleave.

Edit: if he also uses his illumina word, the damage is 2d6+31 on each attack.

Also, the guy can jump 30 feet without fail and jump 12 feet into the air without fail.
The Matrix, anyone?

Edit 2: Wow, i just realised that an illumian would be perfect for ascending to a god. The final utterance racial ability is how the first illumian became a god.


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## Lord Wyrm (Dec 24, 2005)

garlicnation said:
			
		

> Here is my charachter, feel free to point out any flaws.
> 
> Backstory: Cryptcloud Khurstak is one of the elite sentries of the Cryptcloud cabal. Since birth he has been trained as a sentry. He was posted ouside the moat of the cabal because of his specialty, jumping. He can easily jump a gap that keeps enemies away. Whenever the cabal was attacked, he sounded the alarm, inflicted massive damae to the attackers, then jumped oveer the 25 foot wide moat to safety once the wizards started pelting the attackers with spells. It is said that with a single blow of his fist, he can kill a man, and the man next to him. Above all else, he respects his cabals and the law of it. He has left in order to train, and oneday return with powers, and secrets untold. Despite his lack of intelligence, his wisdom makes him a respected individual in the cabal, to where he one day hopes to return.
> 
> ...



I've outlined corrections in green.  Your skills have a maximum rank of 13 currently, this means Concentration must have its ranks reduced, in addition you have 39 skill points to spend total.  As far as power-gaming it, as relayed in your email, I would put forward the question to your fellow players, they are far more proficient than I am.

Endur:  I once priced Paragon as a LA +10 and that was far too low until level 25,  I have since included a caveat, if I'm using the word correctly, that the Paragon template would have that pricing but only at Epic Level (21+) play and would otherwise be disallowed.  If you wish to be human and have greater than human abilities I suggest you create a template and submit it to me.  I have offered a few times to allow such actions due to the "grey" nature of my campaign world.


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## Endur (Dec 24, 2005)

What do you think of this +24 LA progression sequence for the Paragon Template (with the idea that I would be Barbarian 10/paragon template +10 LA)?  I will understand if you think the paragon template is still too powerful.

Paragon Template
LA: +24

At every LA: +1 luck bonus on attack roll, +1 SR

At every even LA: +1 hit point per level, insight bonus to ac, luck bonus to ac, luck bonus to melee damage and thrown ranged attacks, insight bonus to special attacks, caster level for spell-like abilities, all ability scores

LA +1: SR =CR+1
LA +3: +1 luck bonus on attack roll, +1 insight bonus to special attacks
LA +5: +8 luck bonus to damage, +3 caster level for spell-like abilities
LA +7: all ability scores 3 points higher
LA +9: Fire and Cold Resistance 10
LA +11: +10 competence bonus on skill checks
LA +13: +10 insight bonus on saving throws
LA +15: Greater dispelling, haste, and see invisibility 3/day at caster level 15
LA +17: Movement Speed: Triple for all movement types
LA +19: Max Hit Points Per Die
LA +21: Fast Healing 20
LA +23: DR: 10/epic

So at LA+10: 
+10 luck bonus on attack roll, SR=CR+11
+5 hit points per level, +5 insight bonus to ac, +5 luck bonus to ac, +5 luck bonus to melee damage and thrown ranged attacks, +5 insight bonus to special attacks, +5 caster level for spell-like abilities, +5 all ability scores
+1 luck bonus on attack roll, +1 insight bonus to special attacks
+8 luck bonus to damage, +3 caster level for spell-like abilities
all ability scores 3 points higher
Fire and Cold Resistance 10


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## garlicnation (Dec 24, 2005)

Ok, changes made. The skill thing was a typo. Any comments or suggestions about my charachter??? Fellow players unite.


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## Azaar (Dec 24, 2005)

Okay... I admit it.  I'm stuck.  I have two character concepts in mind, both of them I want to play, but I honestly, truly cannot decide which one I want to play the most.  I'm almost halfway considering a third option that could conceivably combine the two, but I'd have to play with it some first to see if it's one I could go for.

Build #1:  Rogue 8/Chameleon 2 / Warlock 10

Yes, I'm a sucker for the warlock class, and I've always had an interest in trying out the Chameleon PrC.  While I tried considering other options, I found that, in the end, rogue was simply the best option to combine with Chameleon, while still retaining my full caster progression with the warlock.  I'm seriously looking at human, but the changeling/"Faceless" sounds like another possibility, including the racial substitution levels.  I'd even gone so far as to consider taking Cabinet Trickster and Mindspy with this build for the rogue/chameleon side of the gestalt.

Build #2:  Fighter 10 / Soulknife 10

Admittedly, the soulknife isn't exactly the best in the world as written, so I'd like to present this for Lord Wyrm's perusal:  http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=310984.  There is some improvement there, but I would want to be certain that it's kosher to use BlaineTog's Soulknife Fix for this game.  If not, I can still figure something out in terms of how this build could work out.  I'm not entirely certain on race here, either.  Probably human, though.

The other options I'm seeing right now is perhaps Soulknife/Warlock, or a blend of Rogue/Soulknife / Warlock, but I'm not certain how that build could work out in a way I'd be happy with.  If I knew a way to do it, I'd do a Raziel-themed character (for which, in many respects, the Soulknife would be a perfect fit).  But it would be largely dependent upon whether I could use the Soulknife alternative I've linked to for Lord Wyrm to make the final decision.

So I guess I'll just sit back, wait and see.


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## Shayuri (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm pretty much settled on the wizard/warlock combo...and I have the inklings of a good background, I think (hope) for a Faceless character. The idea is that this particular changeling doesn't worship or revere Shadow...in fact, she resents the idea that the Faceless "owe" Shadow anything. He may have created the race, but the moment that Faceless entered the world they became their own creature, and were entitled to discover and fulfill their own destinies.

Fueled by a nearly obsessive need for self-reliance, and an attendant need for power, she travels the world over, seeking knowledge...not only of magic, but also of esoterica she hopes will one day yield understanding of destiny and how to understand and perhaps change it, as well as the gods themselves.

RIght now the class split I'm planning on is Wiz5 / Recaster 5 and Warlock 10.I plan on Loremaster levels in the future, as well as more warlock. I'd also like to take the 5th level Changeling wizard substitution level, from Races of Eberron, if possible.

Still finalizing mechanics, but nearly done.


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## Endur (Dec 25, 2005)

Alternatively, how about human barbarian 10/ Warmain 10 (Arcana Unearthed).  That makes it easy to dodge all the silly template stuff.


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## Wrahn (Dec 25, 2005)

garlicnation said:
			
		

> Ok, changes made. The skill thing was a typo. Any comments or suggestions about my charachter??? Fellow players unite.




I would change your equipment:

6,000 Amulet of Mighty Fists +1
13,000 Monk Belt
9,000 Cloak of Resistance +3
8,000 Ring of Protection +2
9,000 Bracers of Armor +3
4,000 Gloves of Dexterity +2

I would switch out True Seeing and Commune from your fifth level slots   (True seeing has an expensive component, Commune isn't too bad, but I would memorize something without the XP cost until it becomes apparent that you will need it)

Bear in mind, I have little knowledge of your race (I don't own the book) so if that factors in at all, I am not taking it into account.

I would look to WF: Unarmed, perhaps in the place of cleave, I would look to other ways of increasing your chance to hit.  The Monk's greatest failing is their inability to hit things straight up (I know you can buff the crap out of yourself, but still, you should be looking for as many ways as possible to increasing your chance to hit)


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## JonnyFive (Dec 25, 2005)

i'm hoping their is still a spot open, i'd like to try a Pixie 10rogue/6fighter if that isn't stepping on anybodys toes


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## Wrahn (Dec 25, 2005)

Taking a few liberties here, but my current idea is Ununquam the Vanquisher, the first War Mind, writer of the Talariic text, and all around butt kicker.  Though the saga would start with his travels gaining knowledge to perfect his art, it would mean rewriting a bit of the history of the War Mind class.

Lord Wyrm, any issues with that?


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## Ferrix (Dec 26, 2005)

I'm away for holidays but will get my character finished and up within a week I imagine.


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## garlicnation (Dec 26, 2005)

Wouldnt a periapat of wisdom +2 be more useful than gloves of dexterity. Besides giving me the ac bonus, it also gives me better spellcasting, or is there something I dont see. All the other stuff is being changed right now.


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## Wrahn (Dec 26, 2005)

garlicnation said:
			
		

> Wouldnt a periapat of wisdom +2 be more useful than gloves of dexterity. Besides giving me the ac bonus, it also gives me better spellcasting, or is there something I dont see. All the other stuff is being changed right now.




Periapt takes the same slot as an amulet.

Now you could make it a headband of wisdom (the slot affinity for head is mental enhancement) but I didn't want to suggest you get into custom magic items.

Also I suggested the + to Dex item because clerics don't have access to cat's grace (and that used to be relevant).  But in the end you are correct, if you can get around the same slot issue, then I too would take the periapt over the gloves.


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## Lord Wyrm (Dec 26, 2005)

Endur: The write up for Paragon looks good, I just got the opportunity to look in Arcana Evolved and Warmain looks fine with me.

Azaar:  I'm going to have to say no to the "Soulknife Fix", it just seems a little too good.

Shayuri:  The changeling racial substitution levels are fine.

JonnyFive: There are still slots open, Pixie Fighter/ Rogue is cool.

Wrahn: A few issues, you wouldn't be the first Warmind, but you could very well be the author of the new texts as the first ones were consumed in the Fall of the Elders.


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## Dracomeander (Dec 26, 2005)

I haven't forgotten about my interest in this game (my post is way back towards the beginning of the first page). I hope I can still get in without my concept stepping on anyone else's niche.

What I am looking at is Conrad Jaeger the Implaccable. He will be an Urban Ranger 4 Bloodhound 6 / Psion (Nomad) 10. His psionics are the edge he has to provide that something extra that makes him the superlative huntsman / criminal retriever that he is.

Right now I am looking at either making him as a Human or an Elan from the XPH. Suggestions and reasons why are appreciated as I will be building the framework to handle either race choice.


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## garlicnation (Dec 26, 2005)

Lord wyrm, will you allow a headband of wisdom? 4000 gp for +2 to wis?.


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## Azaar (Dec 26, 2005)

Fair enough.  I wasn't certain if it would fly or not, myself, so I figured better safe than sorry.

Okay... I've come up with a rough draft for a final character concept.  I'm probably gonna need a little help on it, though, to make certain I have all the mechanics right:  I'll refresh myself with the stuff Pyrex posted when I asked about the template stuff earlier in the thread, but I'm still not entirely certain I have it completely down pat.  I'll try working up a character sheet, in the meantime, and post it once I'm done.

Warlock 1 / Half-Vampire Rogue 1
Warlock 2 / Half-Vampire (LA)
Warlock 3 / Half-Vampire (LA)
Warlock 4 / Soulknife 1
Warlock 5 / Fighter 1
Warlock 6 / Soulknife 2
Warlock 7 / Rogue 2
Warlock 8 / Soulknife 3
Warlock 9 / Rogue 3
Warlock 10 / Soulknife 4

* Half-Vampire template is from _Libris Mortis_, pp. 107-108.

_Illuvia Kollarin had unwittingly been seduced by a vampire and fed upon, yet was not killed.  Illuvia was a sorceress of minor repute, with ambition to become someone of great power and importance.  When she discovered she was somehow pregnant by the vampire, Illuvia decided to offer the unborn child as a sacrifice to abyssal forces in exchange for greater power.

Tarris Kollarin was born nine months later, and ten days after his birth, Illuvia began the ceremony that would allow her to sacrifice her child to the Abyss to keep the power she had gained through her unholy pact.  A small adventuring party, however, found Illuvia as she raised the sacrificial dagger to take her own child's life, and battle ensued.  Illuvia was killed, and Tarris was taken to an orphanage in a nearby city to live.

From the beginning, Tarris seemed a little... unnatural.  His skin tone was paler than most, yet he carried himself in such a way that made him more striking than most other boys.  Some said he could get away with almost anything, due to his charm.  It was not until he reached his teenage years, however, that Tarris was befriended by an older gentleman who seemed to know much about Tarris.

This 'gentleman' was actually a warlock, a member of the adventurers who had killed Illuvia to save Tarris, and had elected to remain in the city and keep watch over him from afar.  When Tarris started to exhibit certain mystical abilities, the warlock knew that something had happened during that ceremony... and that there was a mystery behind Tarris that needed solving.

It was a strange meshing of arcane magic and psionic power that seemed to mark Tarris, as well as a certain roguish streak.  With the warlock's help, Tarris learned of his true heritage as a half-vampire.  Shortly thereafter, however, the same vampire that had sired him through Illuvia reappeared, killing the warlock while Tarris was away; apparently, Tarris's vampire sire had also been watching his progeny from afar.

Discovering the body of his warlock friend, Tarris made a solemn vow to himself:  never again would he allow the undead to roam freely and terrorize the living.  He may never be truly accepted by the living, but he would fight until his dying breath to make certain the undead would never hold sway over the world._

====================================================================

In case this concept doesn't fly (which I think will be somewhat dependent upon the factors emanating from having that Half-Vampire template from _Libris Mortis_), I do have an alternative in mind:  most likely Changeling/"Faceless" Rogue/Chameleon - Warlock, although I'm still tempted by the prospect of having Soulknife levels in there as well.  I'll work up a character sheet for that character as well, just in case.


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## JonnyFive (Dec 27, 2005)

ok here is my char, please let me know if anything is wrong.

also lord wyrm, the darkstaker feat is from the lords of madness book.  if you need info on the feat just ask and i'll post it.  



```
[size=5][color=white][b]Twilight Dawn, Pixie Rogue10 / Fighter6,Pixie4[/b][/color][/size]
[i]Small Fey, Chaotic Neutral,
Age:???, 2'3", 23, F, Sky Blue eyes, Tan skin, Black hair, Deep Violet Wings[/i]

[b]STR:[/b] 14+2(10points,-4race,+2level)
[b]DEX:[/b] 23+6( 8points,+8race,)
[b]CON:[/b] 16+3(10points,+0race)
[b]INT:[/b] 20+5( 6points,+6race)
[b]WIS:[/b] 16+3( 4points,+4race)
[b]CHA:[/b] 16+3( 2points,+6race)

[b]Hit Points:[/b] 84 / 84
[b]Hit Dice:[/b] 4d6+12,6d10+18 (84 hp)
[b]Speed:[/b] 20ft land, 60ft Fly (perfict)
[b]Initative:[/b] +6
[b]AC:[/b] 24 (+6 Armor, +6 DEX, +1 Size, +1 Natural; touch 17, flat-footed 24)
[b]BAB/Grapple:[/b] +9/+7

[b]Fort:[/b] +9 (+6 Base, +3 CON)
[b]Ref:[/b] +12 (+6 Base, +6 DEX)
[b]Will:[/b] +6 (+3 Base, +3 WIS)

[u][b]Attacks:[/b][/u]
[list][*]QuarterStaff +9 melee [i](1d6+3 x2)[/i][*]+2 seeking Greatbow (+2str) +17 ranged, 130' [i](1d10+4 19-20x3)[/i][/list]

[u][b]Attacks:[/b][/u]
[list][*]Sneak Attack +5d6[*]Trap Sense +3[*]Evation[*]Uncanny Dodge[*]Improved Uncanny Dodge[*]Crippling Strike[/list]


[u][b]Special Attacks:[/b][/u]
1/day 
[list][*]lesser confusion (DC 14)[*]dancing lights[*]detect chaos[*]detect good[*]detect evil[*]detect law[*]detect thoughts (DC 15)[*]dispel magic[*]entangle (DC 14)[*]permanent image (DC 19; visual and auditory elements only)[*]polymorph (self only)[*][i]Caster level 8th[/i][/list]

[u][b]Special Qualities:[/b][/u] 
[list][*]Damage reduction 10/cold iron[*]spell resistance (15 + class levels)[*]greater invisibility[*][i]the invisibility can be raised/droped as a free action[/i][/list]

[u][b]Skills:[/b][/u] (169 points, max ranks 13/6)
[list][*]Balance (Dex) 13 [i](5 Ranks, +6 DEX, +2 SYN)[/i][*]Bluff (Cha) 8 [i](5 Ranks, +3 CHA)[/i][*]Jump (Str) 9 [i](5 Ranks, +2 STR, +2 SYN)[/i][*]Disable Device (Int) 18 [i](13 Ranks, +5 INT)[/i][*]Gather Information (Cha) 8 [i](5 Ranks, +3 CHA)[/i][*]Hide (Dex) 23 [i](13 Ranks, +6 DEX, +4 Size)[/i][*]Listen (Wis) 18 [i](13 Ranks, +3 WIS, +2 Race)[/i][*]Move Silently (Dex) 19 [i](13 Ranks, +6 DEX)[/i][*]Open Lock (Dex) 16 [i](10 Ranks, +6 DEX)[/i][*]Perform (Oratory)(Cha) 13 [i](10 Ranks, +3 CHA)[/i][*]Search (Int) 20 [i](13 Ranks, +5 INT, +2 Race)[/i][*]Sense Motive (Wis) 13 [i](10 Ranks, +3 WIS)[/i][*]Sleight of Hand (Dex) 18 [i](10 Ranks, +6 DEX, +2 SYN)[/i][*]Spot (Wis) 18 [i](13 Ranks, +3 WIS, +2 Race)[/i][*]Tumble (Dex) 21 [i](13 Ranks, +6 DEX, +2 SYN)[/i][*]Use Magic Device (Cha) 16 [i](13 Ranks, +3 CHA)[/i][*]Use Rope (Dex) 11 [i](5 Ranks, +6 DEX)[/i][/list]

[u][b]Feats:[/b][/u] 
[list][*]Dodge[*]Weapon Finesse[*]Improved Flight[*]Point Blank[*]Precice shot[*]DarkStalker (LoM, pg179)[*]Improved Critical (greatbow)[*]exotic Weapon Prof (greatbow)[*]Weapon Focus (Greatbow)[*]Weapon Specilization (greatbow)[/list]

[u][b]Languages:[/b][/u] 
[list][*]Common[*]Sylvan[*]Auran[*]Elven[*]Gnome[*]Dwarven[*]Celestial[/list]

[u][b]Equipment:[/b][/u]
[list][*]52gp, 180x10gp pearls[*]+2 seeking Composit Greatbow(+2)[i](18,900gp, 6lbs.)[/i][*]Composit Greatbow (+2)[i](900gp, 6lb)[/i][*]QuarterStaff[i](-gp, 4lbs.)[/i][*]QuarterStaff[i](-gp, 4lbs.)[/i][*]Dagger [i](2gp, 1lbs.)[/i][*]Bow Strings(20)[i](20gp, -lb)[/i][*]Quiver of Ehlona[i](1800gp, 2lbs.)[/i][*]Arrows (60)[i](3gp, --lbs.)[/i][*]Ring of Sustinence[i](2500gp, --lbs.)[/i][*]Goggles of the Night[i](12000gp, --lbs.)[/i][*]+2 mithiral chain shirt[i](5450gp, 6.25lbs.)[/i][*]Bag of Holding Type 2[i](5000, 25lb.)[/i][*]Travlers Outfit (3)[i](3gp, 2.5lbs.)[/i][*]Cold Weather Gear (2)[i](16gp, 3.5lbs.)[/i][*]Everburning Torch[i](220gp, --lbs.)[/i][*]MW Thieves Tools[i](100gp, 2lbs.)[/i][*]Small Steel Mirror[i](10gp, .5lbs.)[/i][*]MW Hammer[i](50gp, 1lbs.)[/i][*]MW Crowbar[i](50gp, 1lbs.)[/i][*]Rope(Silk)[i](60gp, 30lbs.)[/i][*]Grappling Hook /w Rope(Silk)[i](61gp, 34lbs.)[/i][*]Waterskin, full (4)[i](4gp, 16lbs.)[/i][*]chalk (100)[i](1gp, --lbs.)[/i][*][i]NOTES: the nonmagical bow is carried in the quiver, as is the 2 quarterstaffs.  the arrows are also in the quiver.  everything else besides the dagger is in the Bag of holding type2[/i][/list]
Total weight carried -- 42.75lbs.
Light load -- 43.5lbs., medium -- 87lbs., heavy -- 131.25lbs.


[u][b]XP:[/b][/u] 50000/55000

[u][b]Appearance:[/b][/u]
XXXXX

[u][b]Personality:[/b][/u]
XXXXX

[u][b]Background:[/b][/u]
XXXXX

[u][b]Notes:[/b][/u]
XXXXX
```


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## Wrahn (Dec 27, 2005)

JonnyFive,

A small suggestion, instead of having a 17 Str and a 13 Dex Base, if you have a 16 Str base and a 14 dex base and put your two level advances into strength you will end up with the same stats and have 2 more points to spend on characteristics.


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## Endur (Dec 27, 2005)

Latest version of my character: Human Barbarian 10/Warmain 10

ARN

Using the Bear Totem Barbarian variant from Unearthed Arcana and the Warmain class from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.

Lo, there do I see my father 
Lo, there do I see my mother and my sisters 
and my brothers 
Lo, there do I see the line of my people back 
to the beginning 
Lo, they do call to me 
They bid me take my place among them 
in the Halls of Valhalla 
Where the brave may live forever...

[sblock]
ARN
Human Barbarian 10/Warmain 10
Str 18 (pointbuy 10 +2 levels)
Dex 14 (pointbuy 6)
Con 14 (pointbuy 6)
Int 14 (pointbuy 6)
Wis 14 (pointbuy 6)
Chr 14 (pointbuy 6)

BAB: +10
bull rush: +8/+10 while raging
grapple: +18/+24 while raging
sunder:

HP: 10d12 +20(con) +3 (toughness feat) +4 (sturdy feat)=  (+24 while raging)

Armor Class: 10 +1 Dex +9 armor= 20 (18 while raging)

init: +2
Fort: +7 base +2 con +2 feat=+9 (+2 while raging)
Reflex: +3 base + 2 dex =+5
Will: +4 base +2 wis =+6  (+2 while raging)

feats: power attack(1st), cleave(human 1st), Improved Bull Rush(3rd), Combat Brute (6th Complete Warrior), Shock Trooper (9th Complete Warrior) 
Barbarian Feats: Toughness, Improved Grapple, Great Fortitude
Warmain Feats: Weapon Focus Great Sword (2nd), Weapon Specialization Great Sword (4th), Improved Sunder (6th), Great Cleave (10th)

Warmain: Feats as above.  Sturdy at first level (+x2 con bonus hit points).  Crushing Blow 1/day at 8th level (one attack a day is an automatic critical if it hits)

Bear Totem Barbarian 
Give up Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Receive instead: Toughness, Improved Grapple, Great Fortitude, and +4 bonus on grapple checks while raging.

Equipment (49,000 gp total): 
Viking Long Ship: 10,000 gp
Horses: ? gp
Gear: ? gp
+1 Adamantine Great Sword: 5050gp
+1 Full plate: 2650 gp

Great Sword: +16 to hit, 2d6 + 9 damage  (while raging +2 to hit, +3 to damage)

Typical combat sequence (cleaving when foes fall): 
When Charging:
Charge enemy: power attack -10 to ac, +20 to damage
2nd round Full attack: power attack: -10 to hit, +30 to damage
3rd and subsequent rounds full attack: power attack: -10 to hit, +20 to damage

If charged:
full attack: power attack: -10 to hit, +20 to damage

[/sblock]


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## JonnyFive (Dec 28, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> JonnyFive,
> 
> A small suggestion, instead of having a 17 Str and a 13 Dex Base, if you have a 16 Str base and a 14 dex base and put your two level advances into strength you will end up with the same stats and have 2 more points to spend on characteristics.




hu, thanks


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## Bloodweaver1 (Dec 28, 2005)

Hey Lord Wyrm - 
 I would like to totally change my submissions and go with something comlpetely different. How is a drawven Artificer 18 Wand Adapt 2 // Fighter 20 strike you? The build that I have invisioned is a wand carrying gun slinger who is not affriad to get up close and personel. In terms of ascention I was thinking that he would be the dwarven hero/paragon/god. Possbily a decendent of the god magic, making him the god/lord of creation. Let me know what you think so I begin to put a character sheet and history together. 


-Blood


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## Azaar (Dec 28, 2005)

Just remember, we're starting as level 10 gestalts, not level 20... although being level 20 would be very nice.


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