# Ranger/Scout build



## AnonymousOne (Jul 4, 2007)

Okay, so with our new campaign starting up next semester, I thought that maybe I would ask one of my friends at college to play, he seemed up for the idea but seemed really overwhelmed on where to start.  He wants to play a rangeresque character as he's a hunter and outdoorsy kinda guy and also a military and weapons buff.  I figured that a solid Ranger/Scout build would be ideal for his ... demeanor and he said he'd be happy to look at what I put together and then try and tweak his character.

Now, Where do I start?  
We're looking at a 6th level character (with future progression)

on a side note .. Where is the feat that lets you stack Ranger and Scout Levels, I've torn through books trying to find it and I've either overlooked it or am looking in the wrong place.

Help?


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## Quez The Lame (Jul 4, 2007)

AnonymousOne said:
			
		

> on a side note .. Where is the feat that lets you stack Ranger and Scout Levels, I've torn through books trying to find it and I've either overlooked it or am looking in the wrong place.



Complete Scoundrel.

Improved Skirmish from the same book may be a good choice too.


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 4, 2007)

Blast, I must have overlooked it, and yes Imp Skirmish is on my list of possible feats.


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## Felix (Jul 4, 2007)

I'd say Human Scout 4 / Ranger 2.

That nets you:
3 level feats
1 human feat
1 scout bonus feat
Track
Fast Movement +10
Trackless Step
Rapid Shot/TWF
Favored Enemy +2
Skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC)
+5 BAB
Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +1
Whole lotta skill points
Martial Weapon proficiencies

For your feats with a melee focus, I'd say:
Human: Dodge
1st level: Mobility
3rd level: Weapon Focus (Something)
6th level: Spring Attack
Scout Bonus feat: Improved Initiative

If you want to use your off-hand for TWF, wear a shield and bash with it, and substitute Improved Shield Bash for Weapon Focus. You could also substitute Iron Will in there, since your base Will save is pretty dismal.

---

If you want to go ranged, I suggest:

Human: Point Blank Shot
1st level: Precise Shot
3rd level: Dodge
6th level: Shot on the Run
Scout bonus: Mobility

Use a longbow and take advantage of Shot on the Run. Save your hit points by not allowing yourself to be targeted. Also: Iron Will, but here the substitution is much costlier; you'd have to delay SotR until 9th level. You can also take Spring Attack later on in the event you find yourself in melee.

---

Re: Ranger & Scout combo feat

I believe it's in either Complete Adventurer, the PHB II, or Complete Scoundrel, but my first guess is in Complete Adventurer.


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 4, 2007)

It's in complete scoundrel and for some reason I just overlooked it.... duh.

FYI this will be a ranged character and will probably be looking at a composite Long Bow as a primary weapon.


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## blargney the second (Jul 4, 2007)

I just made one of these guys up the other week - they rock hardcore!  Here's how you do it:

Human Ranger 1: Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus(light crossbow)
Ranger 1/Scout 2: Crossbow Sniper (PHB2 77)
Ranger 1/Scout 4: Swift Hunter (CSc 81)
Ranger 2/Scout 4: Improved Skirmish (CSc 78)

You'll end up with 4d6 skirmish damage at targets within 60 feet(!), 1/2 Dex to damage, and two favored enemies that you can skirmish regardless of type and immunities to critical hits(!).  Constructs and undead make excellent choices for favored enemies.

Magic items you'll want for sure:
Foefinding Goggles allow you to ignore cover bonuses to AC. (MIC 108, 2500 gp)
+1 Bolts of Seeking (just 5 or 6 in case of emergency) allow you to ignore any % miss chances. (DMG 225, +2 total bonus)
Skirmisher Boots give +2 damage to skirmish attacks, and 2/day extra attack if you move >= 10 ft. (MIC 136, 3200 gp)

Enjoy!
-blarg


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 4, 2007)

Blargney .... I never thought I could love a Canadian ... I was wrong.  

That is EXACTLY the kind of theme I think he'll love.


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## blargney the second (Jul 4, 2007)

Cool!  Glad to be of service. 
-blarg

ps - For added mileage, use the non-spellcasting ranger variant in Complete Champion (p50) to get access to bonus feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot.


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 4, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Cool!  Glad to be of service.
> -blarg
> 
> ps - For added mileage, use the non-spellcasting ranger variant in Complete Champion (p50) to get access to bonus feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot.




Complete Champion?  ARG of all the books I don't have access to.

Here's a question:

The Full BAB progression from the Ranger is REALLY sweet, but the Scout has some REALLY nice bonuses too (things like flawless stride, Camo, and a stack of bonus feats)

Is it better (from a shear power build aspect) to go solid Ranger after this, or should you sprinkle in more levels of scout for some goodies.... also, did wizards happen to put up a free version of the non-spellcasting Ranger?  I'm quite interested in how it looks.

EDIT: WOuld you also recommend the Distracting attack alternative from PHBII?  Ditch the Animal Companion in favor of the flanking bonus?  (Given the fact that we have Swash/Rogue and a Goliath Warblade I think this might be just what the Doc ordered.)


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## Seeten (Jul 4, 2007)

The non-spellcasting ranger is easy. no spellcasting, gain bonus feats at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 4, 2007)

Yeah but Bonus Feats from what list?


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## blargney the second (Jul 4, 2007)

Actually, the list is much the same as the Scout's bonus feats.  Not identical, but there's enough overlap to give you a good idea.  It's also at the same rate: 1/four levels.


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## blargney the second (Jul 4, 2007)

It might not be a bad idea to go for Distracting Attack.  Animal companions add a lot of bookkeeping headaches for new players.

Incidentally, Scout levels are good for keeping ranks in Tumble up.  You'll want that to be maxed as much as possible.


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 4, 2007)

... why tumble with a ranged character like a ranger?  If you run a set of mobility armor (MIC attribute)  do you really need the ability to scoot do that?  Consider also that the character's movement is 40 ft, 20 ft of tumble isn't a lot.

I might just be missing something major, so please explain.


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## Darklone (Jul 4, 2007)

Ack no. Guys, WHY did NOONE MENTION GREATER MANYSHOT?????

What you do is ranger2/scout4, at level 6 you take Manyshot and Greater Manyshot (psio book but general feat) as your feats. Greater Manyshot allows you to shoot several arrows with skirmish damage to each arrow.

Next feat you can take is Improved Skirmish if you can't take it before.

Proceed to take ranger levels if you don't want evasion (costs one point of BAB) too soon.

I wouldn't take the spellless ranger if you are allowed to take all these nice new SC spells for rangers. Swift spells to boost all your attacks per round rock.

Try to get a Kalamar hobgoblin race. +2 to Con and Dex with -2 to all mental stats rocks for that ranger/scout. Friend of mine plays one right now in my pirate game, nickname is "Glasses"... he's wearing that Search+ item as monocle.

Don't forget to take a greataxe along and you might be interested in Power Attack.

Favored enemies: Constructs and Undead, then you can skirmish everything.

Edit: Forget Shot on the Run, you can't use it with Greater Manyshot, which will be the most potent thing your char can ever do in the game.


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## blargney the second (Jul 4, 2007)

The tactical advantage of scouts is that they get to make one attack that really counts, while denying their opponents the ability to make a full-round attack.  If you get based, Tumble lets you get away without giving them a free attack *at their full attack bonus*. (which is better than the full-round attack in some cases)


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## Darklone (Jul 4, 2007)

Melee scout: Leap attack plus Powerful charge plus Improved Powerful charge plus Reckless Charge plus some class abilities plus some magic items plus Snap kick plus ...


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## Hammerhead (Jul 4, 2007)

If you're using Swift Hunter, you'll want to be going primarily Ranger. The full BAB combined with spells that you'll want to use, such as Hunter's Mercy, Arrow Mind, Listening Lorecall, etc. make it the ideal choice. 

You can't go with Darklone's suggestion of Ranger 2 Scout 4, picking up with Manyshot and Greater Manyshot, for several reasons. First of all, you don't even meet the BAB prerequirements. Second, you'll have to wait until Level 9 for Swift Hunter, and Level 12 for Improved Skirmish...not good. Finally, you get Manyshot as a bonus Ranger feat at level 6, with no provision for replacing it. 

If I were making a Swift Hunter, here's how I'd arrange my levels and feats:

Scout 1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (start with scout for the skill points)
Scout 1 / Ranger 1: Track
Scout 1 / Ranger 2: Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow)
Scout 2 / Ranger 2:
Scout 2 / Ranger 3: Endurance
Scout 3 / Ranger 3: Swift Hunter
Scout 3 / Ranger 4:
Scout 3 / Ranger 5:
Scout 3 / Ranger 6: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot
Scout 4 / Ranger 6: Improved Skirmish (as Scout bonus feat) 

Distracting Attack from PHB2 is generally a much better choice than a fairly useless animal companion, especially if you have a Rogue in your party.


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## Erywin (Jul 4, 2007)

IMO, the CC replacement for spells is only good if you are only allowed spells from the PHB.  If the ranger is allowed spells from Spell Compendium then keep the spells, there are alot of swift action orientated ones that are great for a ranged character.


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## Holy Bovine (Jul 4, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> I just made one of these guys up the other week - they rock hardcore!  Here's how you do it:
> 
> Human Ranger 1: Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus(light crossbow)
> Ranger 1/Scout 2: Crossbow Sniper (PHB2 77)
> ...




I think I'm in love.  Great build - I wouldn't have thought of the crossbow though.  Any reason you prefer that over a traditional composite (mighty) longbow?


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## blargney the second (Jul 4, 2007)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> I think I'm in love.  Great build - I wouldn't have thought of the crossbow though.  Any reason you prefer that over a traditional composite (mighty) longbow?



Four reasons:
1) 1/2 Dex to damage.
2) Skirmish range increased from 30' to 60'.
3) Static damage bonuses + decent threat range.
4) Style!

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about getting multiple attacks with skirmish damage.  Just do the one hit, and make it count.


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## Hammerhead (Jul 4, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Four reasons:
> 1) 1/2 Dex to damage.
> 2) Skirmish range increased from 30' to 60'.
> 3) Static damage bonuses + decent threat range.
> ...




Why not? Half Dex damage on one attack versus getting several attacks, each with skirmish damage, using Greater Manyshot?


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## blargney the second (Jul 4, 2007)

Really, it depends on personal preference more than anything.  If you'd rather make more attacks and a huge penalty to hit with all of them, then Manyshot is fine.  If you'd rather make sure your shot counts for something, then it's a significant opportunity cost that you could use to get other abilities. *shrug*

Finally, note that getting Improved Skirmish earlier effectively gives you the same amount of damage that you'd get with Manyshot, but without the penalty to attack.


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 4, 2007)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> Any reason you prefer that over a traditional composite (mighty) longbow?



It increases the range of the skirmish from 30' to 60'  

Also keep in mind ... this guy has never pick up a PHB before, and having him keep track of spells is not something that I think he wants to do.

I'm looking at a solely martial class for the time being.

EDIT:  BTW, thanks everyone for the advice.  If we drop spellcasting and go with the bonus feats we might have some space for some melee feats as well.


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## joshhg (Jul 4, 2007)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> If you're using Swift Hunter, you'll want to be going primarily Ranger. The full BAB combined with spells that you'll want to use, such as Hunter's Mercy, Arrow Mind, Listening Lorecall, etc. make it the ideal choice.



Now, while I'll agree with this, as Ranger 16/Scout 4 is the primary build. However, if you have Complete Mage, I like a 15/5 progression, because a alt class feature in there, Spell reflection allows you to reflect spells that miss you back to your opponent. For this you give up evasion from the Ranger, but you get it earlier with the Scout anyways.

Also, while a archer build is great at 16/4, a reasonable alternative is scout 18/ Ranger 2, which gives you a better average between melee and ranged combat, if you take Spring Attack and Point Blank Shot.

The best place, IMO, for learning about the Swift Hunter build is The Swift Hunter's Handbook on the WotC CO forums.


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## thorian (Jul 4, 2007)

Here is an NPC I've tried out.  The key is to move 10', then do a greater multshot.  Attack and damage is pretty respectable.  For example, a point blank shot:
attack: +20/20/20 = 14/BAB, 8/dex, 1/wf, 1/enh, 1/comp, -6/manyshot, 1/pb
damage: 1d8+17+6d6+2d6[holy] = 1d8/base, 5/mighty(str), 8/deadeye(dex), 1/enh, 1/pb
*(extra damage +2d6/bane, 6/undead, 4/aberration, 4/outsider(evil), 2/dragon)
So, each arrow does an average of 50 damage plus the bane or favored enemy damage if applicable.

It is not terribly optimized, and was created starting at 15th level.  I would rearrange the class and feat progression if I had to start at 6th level.


```
Level      : 15
Build      : Ranger 11 / Scout 4
Race       : Elf, Wood
Alignment  : Neutral Good
Deity      : Gwaeron Windstrom, Mielikki
Gender     : Female
Size       : Medium
Speed      : 30 ft.

ATTRIBUTES:(36 point buy)
      Net   | Buy  Cost| Other		
STR: 20(+5) |14(+2)  6 | +2/wood elf, +4/enhancement
DEX: 27(+8) |16(+3) 10 | +2/wood elf, +6/enhancement, +3/level
CON: 16(+3) |14(+2)  6 | -2/wood elf, +4/enhancement
INT: 12(+1) |14(+2)  6 | -2/wood elf
WIS: 14(+2) |14(+2)  6 |  0/wood elf
CHA: 10( 0) |10( 0)  2 |  0/wood elf

Initiative:  +10 = +8/dex, +2/comp

HD: 11d8(66=6+5+7+6+5+1+5+7+7+7+8)/rgr-11 + 4d8(24=8+5+7+6)/sct-4
HP: 135 = 90/classes + 45/con(+3*15)

AC     : 25 = 10/base, 8/dex, 6/armor, 1/shield, 0/deflection, 0/natural
 Touch : 18 = 10/base, 8/dex, 0/armor, 0/shield, 0/deflection, 0/natural
 Flat  : 17 = 10/base, 0/dex, 6/armor, 1/shield, 0/deflection, 0/natural
*(+6/skirmish)

SAVES:
Fort +15 = 3/CON, 7/rgr-11, 1/sct-4, 4/resistance
Ref  +23 = 8/DEX, 7/rgr-11, 4/sct-4, 4/resistance
Will +10 = 2/WIS, 3/rgr-11, 1/sct-4, 4/resistance
*(immunity to magic sleep effects, +2 racial bonus vs. enchantment spells or effects)

BAB      : +14 = 11/rgr-11 + 3/sct-4
 Melee   : +19 = 14/BAB, 5/str
 Ranged  : +22 = 14/BAB, 8/dex
 Grapple : +19 = 14/BAB, 5/str

ATTACKS:
Longbow
  attack  : +25/20/15 = 14/BAB, 8/dex, 1/wf, 1/enh, 1/comp
  rapid   : +23/23/18/13 = 14/BAB, 8/dex, 1/wf, 1/enh, 1/comp, -2/rapid
  manyshot: +19/19/19 = 14/BAB, 8/dex, 1/wf, 1/enh, 1/comp, -6/manyshot
  damage  : 1d8+14 = 1d8/base, 5/mighty(str), 8/deadeye(dex), 1/enh
*(attack: +1/pb, +2/bane, +1/hg, ?)
*(damage: +1/pb, +2+6d6/skirmish, +2d6/holy, +2d6/bane, 6/undead, 4/aberration, 4/outsider(evil), 2/dragon)

FEATS:
Char  1 : point blank shot
Rgr   1 : track
Rgr   2 : rapid shot
Char  3 : precise shot
Rgr   3 : endurance
Char  6 : weapon focus (longbow)
Rgr   6 : manyshot
Char  9 : greater manyshot
Char 12 : deadeye
Sct   4 : swift hunter
Char 15 : improved skirmish
Rgr  11 : improved precise shot
Char 18 : improved favored enemy

SKILLS:  142 = 36/sct-1, 27/sct-2-4 + 77/rgr-11 + 2/rgr-sub-1  (MAX=19, CC=9)
  Rgr (6+INT): Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex)
  Sct (8+INT): Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex)
Balance             : 10 =  0/ranks, 8/dex, 2/synergy
Climb               :  5 =  0/ranks, 5/str
Concentration       :  3 =  0/ranks, 3/con
Disable Device      : 20 = 19/ranks, 1/int
Escape Artist       :  8 =  0/ranks, 8/dex
Heal                :  2 =  0/ranks, 2/wis
Hide                : 25 = 17/ranks, 8/dex, fe
Jump                : 12 =  5/ranks, 5/str, 2/synergy
Knowledge(dungeon.) :  2 =  1/ranks, 1/int
Knowledge(geography):  2 =  1/ranks, 1/int
Knowledge(nature)   :  4 =  1/ranks, 1/int, 2/synergy
Listen              : 23 = 19/ranks, 2/wis, +2/racial, fe
Move Silently       : 25 = 17/ranks, 8/dex, fe
Ride                :  8 =  0/ranks, 8/dex
Search              : 22 = 19/ranks, 1/int, +2/racial
Sense Motive        :  2 =  0/ranks, 2/wis
Spot                : 23 = 19/ranks, 2/wis, +2/racial, fe
Survival            :  7 =  5/ranks, 2/wis, fe
Tumble              : 29 = 19/ranks, 8/dex, 2/synergy
Languages:  Common, Elven, Undercommon
*(+2 racial bonus on listen, search, spot; +2 survival when following tracks)
 (hide, listen, move silently, spot survival = +4/aberrations, +4/outsider(evil), +4/undead, +2/dragons)

CLASS ABILITIES:
Scout   1 : skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding
Ranger  1 : 1st favored enemy (undead +3+3), track, wild empathy
Ranger  2 : combat style (rapid shot)
Ranger  3 : endurance
Ranger  4 : distracting attack [PH2]
Ranger  5 : 2nd favored enemy (aberrations +2+2)
Ranger  6 : improved combat style (manyshot)
Ranger  7 : woodland stride
Ranger  8 : swift tracker
Ranger  9 : evasion
Ranger 10 : 3rd favored enemy (outsider[evil] +2+2)
Ranger 11 : combat style mastery
Scout   2 : battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge
Scout   3 : fast movement +10 ft., skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), trackless step
Scout   4 : bonus feat
Ranger 13 : camouflage
Ranger 15 : 4th favored enemy (dragon +2)
Ranger 17 : hide in plain sight

RACIAL ABILITIES [Elf, Wood]:
Medium Humanoid (Elf)
+2 STR, +2, DEX, -2 CON, -2 INT
Speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
Low-Light Vision
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
Favored Class: Ranger.

ARMOR:
Buckler, mw (AC +1, check penalty 0)

WEAPONS:
Longbow (1d8/20x3, 110’, P)
 - Arrows [200]
Longsword (1d8/19-20x2, S)
Sickle (+0, 1d6/20x2, S)

EQUIPMENT:
Backpack
Bedroll
Belt Pouch
Chalk [10]
Explorer’s Outfit
Ink
Inkpen
Parchment [5]
Scroll Case
Waterskin

MAGIC ITEMS:
 Cost .	Description						
51,350	longbow, mighty (+5), composite, elvencraft [RotW-166], +1, holy, force [MIC-35] {cost=100/bow+300/mw+500/mighty+450/elvencraft+50000/enh}
44,000	belt of battle [MIC 73]: +2 [comp] to initiative, also 3 charges/day [][][] (charges: 1 for move action, 2 for standard action, 3 for full-round action); add +4 [enh] str, con {cost=12000+16000+16000}
41,000	bracers of archery: +1 [comp] attack; add +6 [enh] AC {cost=5000+36000}
38,000	gloves of fortunate striking [MIC 105]: re-roll attack 1/day []; add +6 [enh] dex {cost=2000+36000}
2,000	Heward’s Handy Haversack
1,800	quiver of Ehlonna
3,200	skirmisher boots [MIC-136]: +2 damage on skirmish attacks, activate 2/day as swift action to gain extra attack
16,000	vest of resistance +4 (can be added to other vest or cloak)

MONEY:
PP: 200
GP: 450
SP:  10
CP:  10

SPELLS:
Spells per Day: 1=1(2), 2=1(2), 3=0(0)
Bonus Spells (WIS 14): 1=1, 2=1, 3=0
Spell DC = 12+lvl = 10/base, 2/int14, + spell level

1: (2)
 
[][][] Accelerated Movement SC
[][][] Alarm
[][][] Animal Messenger
[][][] Arrow Mind SC
[][][] Calm Animals
[][][] Camouflage SC
[][][] Charm Animal
[][][] Delay Poison
[][][] Detect Animals or Plants
[][][] Detect Poison
[][][] Detect Snares and Pits
[][][] Embrace the Wild SC
[][][] Endure Elements
[][][] Entangle
[][][] Hawkeye SC
[][][] Hide from Animals
[][][] Hunter’s Mercy SC
[][][] Jump
[][][] Longstrider
[][][] Magic Fang
[][][] Pass without Trace
[][][] Read Magic
[][][] Resist Energy
[][][] Speak with Animals
[][][] Summon Nature's Ally I
[][][] Woodwhisp Arrow CoR
 
2: (2)
 
[][][] Barkskin
[][][] Briar Web SC
[][][] Brilliant Energy Arrow CoR
[][][] Burrow
[][][] Camouflage, Mass SC
[][][] Cat's Grace
[][][] Cure Light Wounds
[][][] Exacting Shot SC
[][][] Hold Animal
[][][] Listening Lorecall SC
[][][] Owl's Wisdom
[][][] Protection from Energy
[][][] Snare
[][][] Speak with Plants
[][][] Spellslayer Arrow CoR
[][][] Spike Growth
[][][] Summon Nature's Ally II
[][][] Tremorsense SC
[][][] Wind Wall
 
3: (0)
 
[][][] Arrowsplit CoR
[][][] Arrow Storm SC
[][][] Command Plants
[][][] Cure Moderate Wounds
[][][] Darkflame Arrow CoR
[][][] Darkvision
[][][] Diminish Plants
[][][] Find the Gap SC
[][][] Forestfold SC
[][][] Magic Fang, Greater
[][][] Neutralize Poison
[][][] Plant Growth
[][][] Reduce Animal
[][][] Remove Disease
[][][] Repel Vermin
[][][] Summon Nature's Ally III
[][][] Tree Shape
[][][] Water Walk
 
4: (0)
 
[][][] Animal Growth
[][][] Bloodfreeze Arrow CoR
[][][] Commune with Nature
[][][] Cure Serious Wounds
[][][] Deeper Darkvision SC
[][][] Doublestrike Arrow CoR
[][][] Foebane SC
[][][] Freedom of Movement
[][][] Nondetection
[][][] Shadow Arrow CoR
[][][] Summon Nature's Ally IV
[][][] Surefooted Stride, Mass SC
[][][] Swampstride SC
[][][] Treestride
```


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 5, 2007)

wow, I appreciate the feedback.  Given the kind of character history that we're looking at.  We're probably going to drop the spellcasting.  Yeah it's a power drop, but I think that we won't like the flavor of the spellcaster and would rather have the militant combat elite.


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## satori01 (Jul 5, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Honestly, I wouldn't worry about getting multiple attacks with skirmish damage.  Just do the one hit, and make it count.




The Problem is + 5d6 at 20th level is not really a hit that is going to count.  A Paladin using an oversized lance in two hands with Power Attack, Spirited Charge, Divine Might, Smite Evil and a  Bless Weapon spell is a hit that will make it count.

Combat effectiveness in D&D, rightly or wrongly, is more about ensuring the highest number of static modifiers as opposed to the highest # of dice rolled.  We have all seen the Fireball cast by the 10th level wizard do 18 points of damage, just like we have seen the 4th level raging barbarian crit w/ a greataxe for 63 points of damage.

The philosophy of one single hit also flies in the face of the Favored Enemy ability of the Ranger class.  When you can use that class ability you want to be able to deliver it as many times in a round as you possible can, which means you want to be able to make as many attacks as you can in a round.

The Favored Enemy feat from Complete Warrior is a great feat for a Ranger as it adds, (if my memory is accurate), +3 to the damage against all of your Favored Enemies.  Thus at 6th level a +7 against a Favored Enemy is not outside the realm of possibility, this is of course not including STR bonuses and the like, (and a reason why X-bow may not be the best choice for ranged weapon).  In a very themed adventure like say Red Hand of Doom, a gnome Ranger/Scout with the Gnome Ranger substitution levels, and Favoured Enemy : Goblinoids, and eventually Dragons will do quite well.


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## Darklone (Jul 5, 2007)

Yeah. 28d6 per Manyshot is much better than 5d6 once per round.


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## Erywin (Jul 5, 2007)

Also, take a look at the hunting weapon enchantment, adds I believe +4 to favored enemies, its in MIC I believe.

Cheers,
E


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## blargney the second (Jul 5, 2007)

I see what you guys are getting at, we're just talking about different ends of the level spectrum.  Ya ain't gonna get 28d6 one way or another at 6th level. 

Manyshot++ will be amazing around 12th level when his attack bonus is high enough that he still stands a decent chance of hitting even with the penalty.
-blarg


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## Darklone (Jul 5, 2007)

Hmm. Can't remember when our hobgoblin archer level 7 missed the last time.


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## 1500run (Jul 5, 2007)

one thing i haven't seen much of when a ranger goes the TWF route is the use of double weapons like the quarterstaff.  there is a feat in Complete Warrior that adds +2 to your AC bonus from combat expertise if you use a quarterstaff, and you can also switch from 2-handed to TWF from round-to-round, lending maximum efficiency to feats like Power Attack, Two-Weapon Defense, and Two-Weapon Rend.  the main drawback to a ranger is often a low AC, and those feats, along with a decent tumble modifier, the scout's class AC bonus, and the Dodge/Mobility/SpringAttack tree, makes a ranger's fights both shorter and longer (deals more damage, gets hit less often).

also, for a new player like your friend, all the d6's he'll use will make combat for him a breeze, allowing him to pay more attention to what's going on and the options he has available instead of fumbling with unfamiliar dice when things start happening quickly.  a stupid point, to be sure, but it can't hurt to make things simple for a newbie.


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 6, 2007)

Given Rapid Reload, can't you Manyshot with a Crossbow?  Why can't we run the crossbow sniper feats out of the gate and run Manyshot a few levels down the line?


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## Erywin (Jul 6, 2007)

Think in the Manyshot description it mentions specifically "arrows" but doesn't say anything about "bolts"


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## Darklone (Jul 6, 2007)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot

Correct.


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 7, 2007)

"Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage."


Right .. so you're not getting skirmish damage on each arrow as Skirmish is considered precision damage...


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## Legildur (Jul 7, 2007)

AnonymousOne said:
			
		

> "Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage."
> 
> 
> Right .. so you're not getting skirmish damage on each arrow as Skirmish is considered precision damage...



I'm not exactly sure what you are replying to here, but I'll point out that other posters have recommended the _Greater Manyshot_ feat as part of the various builds which overcomes this: "Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage."


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## Machiavelli (Jul 7, 2007)

Well, I built this to gain some more personal perspective into E6 (see the awesome thread/s in House Rules), so it follows the idea that a +1 LA is bought off by dropping from 32 to 25 points in the ability score point buy.
It's also meant for a consistent style rather than pure optimization, so I intended to make this very catfolk-esque in its combat tactics.

That said, I hope it's helpful.


```
Catfolk Scout 2/ Barbarian 1/ Ranger 3
Str 11(12), Dex 20, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
25pt buy for +1 LA

Feats:
Scout 1:     Skirmish 1d6, trapfinding, Weapon Finesse
Scout 2:     Battle fortitude, Uncanny dodge
Barbarian 1: Whirling frenzy 1/day, Fast move +10', Catfolk Pounce
Ranger 1:    Track, Fav enemy +2 (human), Str +1
Ranger 2:    Two Weapon Fighting
Ranger 3:    Endurance, Fav enemy +4/+2 (orc), Skirmish 2d6 +1AC, Swift Hunter

AC 22 (10 +5 Dex +1 NA +5 chain +2 frenzy +1 skirmish -2 charge)
HP 45.5 (8+4d8+1d12+12)
BAB +5
Init +7
Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +1
Skill 62 SP
Speed 50

+11/+11/+9 (+5 BAB +5 Dex -2 Frenzy -2 TWF +2 charge +3 magic)
1d8+4d6+10/3d6+6 (1d8/1d6 base +2d6 scout +2d6 bane +3 Str +3 magic +4 favored)
73.5 average damage if it all hits against a human
```
Now, I'd like to point out that Human is the favored enemy choice only because I'm imagining a world where humans are more common foes than mechanical monsters and evil undead.


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## Darklone (Jul 7, 2007)

AnonymousOne said:
			
		

> "Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage."
> 
> 
> Right .. so you're not getting skirmish damage on each arrow as Skirmish is considered precision damage...



In case we confused you, here's the second feat:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 7, 2007)

So ... many .... feats... *sigh*

Well thanks for the help.  I think he and I have a good idea of how we want this build to run.  Thanks everyone.


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## Erywin (Jul 7, 2007)

Glad to help, hope it works well for you both.  Keep us updated on the final build   Would love to see how it works in a full fledged campaign.

Cheers,
E


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## Seeten (Jul 8, 2007)

What about a Scout/Ranger/Rogue? I am considering this for a campaign I'm likely to be involved in.

Ranger 11/Scout 8/Rogue 1

This would net me 7d6 Skirmish, a boatload of Elf-Favored Enemies for +3 move silently/Hide/spot bonuses, and 5d6 sneak attack, and a BAB of +17. Thats a lot of precision based damage, and lots of good times!


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 8, 2007)

Erywin said:
			
		

> Glad to help, hope it works well for you both.  Keep us updated on the final build   Would love to see how it works in a full fledged campaign.
> 
> Cheers,
> E




Will do, So far it looks like he'll be a great addition to the already confirmed members of the party :  A human Swashbuckler/Fighter/Rogue (my character   ) and a Goliath Barbarian/Warblade, and a Human Technomancer (Homebrew build I'm working on, basically a Powerpoint based wizard class that actually isn't magical ... think Tesla).

We might also be picking up a Battle Sorcerer and a Druid.    Alas how we need a cleric.  :\


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## Asmo (Jul 8, 2007)

Perhaps it would be wise to check if the dm is allowing Manyshot and Greater Manyshot?

Asmo


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## javcs (Jul 8, 2007)

Asmo said:
			
		

> Perhaps it would be wise to check if the dm is allowing Manyshot and Greater Manyshot?
> 
> Asmo



Why would the DM not? They're both in the SRD.


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## Darklone (Jul 8, 2007)

javcs said:
			
		

> Why would the DM not? They're both in the SRD.



There are many DMs out there who are shocked to see the amount of damage a rogue can dish out with several sneak attacks per round... it's so common to houserule only one sneak attack per round that very many believe it's corerules.

Having seen a Scout/Ranger with Greater Manyshot and Improved Skirmish in action who dishes out 28d6 vs undead and constructs (and anything else) while avoiding full attack actions causes even more DMs NOT to allow Greater Manyshot.

Friend of mine has a hobgoblin scout5/rgr2 right now with Improved Skirmish. He won a duel against a gnoll barbarian with a twohanded weapon and str 29 (rage plus drugs). I like highpowered low level games but even I'm not used to this amount of damage at these low levels.


			
				Seeten said:
			
		

> What about a Scout/Ranger/Rogue? I am considering this for a campaign I'm likely to be involved in.
> 
> Ranger 11/Scout 8/Rogue 1
> 
> This would net me 7d6 Skirmish, a boatload of Elf-Favored Enemies for +3 move silently/Hide/spot bonuses, and 5d6 sneak attack, and a BAB of +17. Thats a lot of precision based damage, and lots of good times!



I'm not sure how you get this amount of sneak attack damage... Swift Ambusher does improve skirmish damage with the added levels, not sneak attack damage. So you'd better get Scout3/Ranger10/Rogue7 or something similar for maxxed skirmish and some good sneak damage while maintaining high BAB. In this case though I'd try to get rogue higher than 10 to enjoy the Rogue high level special abilities.


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## AnonymousOne (Jul 8, 2007)

Asmo said:
			
		

> Perhaps it would be wise to check if the dm is allowing Manyshot and Greater Manyshot?
> 
> Asmo



Yes they are allowed and No it does not currently fit with the flavor of the character. _If_   it turns out that Manyshot and Greater Manyshot _can_ be applied to crossbow bolts, then he will most likely pick them up at later levels.


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## Darklone (Jul 8, 2007)

AnonymousOne said:
			
		

> Yes they are allowed and No it does not currently fit with the flavor of the character. _If_   it turns out that Manyshot and Greater Manyshot _can_ be applied to crossbow bolts, then he will most likely pick them up at later levels.



Actually I could easily imagine a crossbow that shoots several bolts at once... historically and realistically it should be more common than shooting several arrows with a bow.


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