# Combat Reports on the Best 3rd Lvl Spells



## Rashak Mani (Jan 19, 2002)

I´m an Illusionist specialist and we have a Sorceror in the group as well... we will in todays session get our 3rd level spells... was wondering what most would recommend choosing. (No Forgotten Realms stuff thou)

     My dillema is if we should vary spells... fireball is nice and so forth but both getting it seems unecessary.  Am I wrong ?

    For my Illusion "slot" I thought Displacement is too limited... rnds per level only.  So Invisibility 10' rad is better no ?

    Other non illusion spells I thought were neat:

   Slow    Stinking Cloud     Dispel Magic     Haste     Ice Burst    Lightining Bolt


    Would like comments on the usability of Lightning Bolt, Ice Burst  (d4+1 per lvl  vs d6 fireball), Slow spell.  Is fireball to hard to use once melee is joined ?   Want "combat" reports on these spells... especially use vs NPCs.


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## Wicht (Jan 19, 2002)

My summation:  Lightning bolt is much better than fireball for melee in the hands of an intelligent caster.  Fireball is much better than lightning bolt for ambushes and room clearing in the hands of just about anyone.


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## Rashak Mani (Jan 19, 2002)

I like your skull... good choice   

   Now the lightning is better for me (wizard) or the sorceror ?  
   How hard is it to use Fireball without hitting party members ?
   You would choose which one ?


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## graydoom (Jan 19, 2002)

d4+1 gives teh same average damage as d6. The d6 can roll higher, but it can also roll lower. Essentailly, "Do you feel lucky?" 

Slow is a very useful spell against fighters. They fail the save, and a slowed fighter can't make full attacks!

Haste is one of the best spells ever.

I would advise you and the other guy to not take many of the same spells. More different spells means you can handle more situations with your magic.

Lightning bolt and fireball can both be useful... just look at Wicht's post.


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## Dingleberry (Jan 19, 2002)

My players have used _lightning bolt_ in melee with devastating effect, especially if the whole party participates in the "line 'em up" strategy.  Our sorcerer runs into problems periodically using fireball in melee - not only because of the wide area of affect, but also because of the risk of premature explosion when sending the bead through combat areas (you can usually get around this by sending it over everyone).

If your DM allows spells from Relics & Rituals, _dragon's breath_ provides excellent flexibility for a sorcerer.

That all being said, I'd make sure the party has ready access to _dispel magic_ before considering ANY of the offensive spells.


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## graydoom (Jan 19, 2002)

Yeah, dispel magic is a must. Greater Dispel Magic is needed at higher levels, too.


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## Wicht (Jan 19, 2002)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> *I like your skull... good choice
> 
> Now the lightning is better for me (wizard) or the sorceror ?
> How hard is it to use Fireball without hitting party members ?
> You would choose which one ? *




As a Wizard I would add all the spells to your repertoire I could.  For the Sorceror, I would think that lightning bolt would be most preferable if you find yourself often in thick melee - fireball is just too limited and I find there are a lot of situations it just isn't practical.  Don't get me wrong, I like fireball and if your sorceror wants to take out armies at a time, it is the way to go, but for dungeon crawling as a sorceror I would take Lightning.

Haste and some of the others are nice but let me agree that I would make sure to always have a dispel magic handy.


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## MythandLore (Jan 19, 2002)

Wicht said:
			
		

> *
> 
> As a Wizard I would add all the spells to your repertoire I could.  For the Sorceror, I would think that lightning bolt would be most preferable if you find yourself often in thick melee - fireball is just too limited and I find there are a lot of situations it just isn't practical.  Don't get me wrong, I like fireball and if your sorceror wants to take out armies at a time, it is the way to go, but for dungeon crawling as a sorceror I would take Lightning.
> 
> Haste and some of the others are nice but let me agree that I would make sure to always have a dispel magic handy. *




I agree.
Fly is a pretty good spell too.


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## d12 (Jan 19, 2002)

Fly is a very, very useful spell.  One of you should have it.  Even in dungeons it increases mobility incredibly.

Lighting Bolt is slightly more useful that fireball for all the reasons people have already listed.  Your sorceror should take lightning bolt and the wizard should take fireball because the wizard can always get lighting bolt later but the sorceror may not want to spend two precious 3rd level slots.  Does that make sense?


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## graydoom (Jan 19, 2002)

On Fireball vs Lightning Bolt...

I've never had problems using fireball, but I can easily how they could come up. Fireball is a great spell for enemies at a distance and for clustered enemies. Usually, in melee, I've found that by putting the focal point of the fireball a bit behind all the fighting, the outer edge catches the baddies without hurting your friendly neighborhood melee fighters.

I've also had tons of fun with lightning bolt. If enemies are marching in a line, in a narrow passage, or lined up parallel to your fighters, it can do wonders. It can be problematic to get into position for optimal use of it, though.

As a Wizard, you should probably memorize one or two of both. As a Sorcerer, you should choose whichever you think is more useful, and only learn it. Can't afford to use up the limited number of spells known.


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## Rashak Mani (Jan 19, 2002)

Nice replies... what about Slow ?  I just read up on it... and somehow its strikes me as very very useful !

    Opinions on slow spell ?

    Haste is like getting quicken spell for 5 rnds... ?  You cast twice number spells...

   As for the Sorceror I agree that he should choose one and only one damage spell... he will take ages to get another 3rdlvl spell thou... which second spell for the sorceror ?


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## MythandLore (Jan 19, 2002)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> *Nice replies... what about Slow ?  I just read up on it... and somehow its strikes me as very very useful !
> 
> Opinions on slow spell ?
> 
> ...




Slow is really really good.
My parties have destroyed some stuff I didn't think we could using slow.


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## graydoom (Jan 19, 2002)

As I said above, slow is great! Stops enemies from running, and really cripples fighters. A slowed fighter can't make full attacks! It can also dispel haste, which is very useful.

For the sorcerer, I might advise Dispel Magic or Haste. You'll probably be casting both of those a lot.


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## Wicht (Jan 19, 2002)

graydoom said:
			
		

> *I've never had problems using fireball, but I can easily how they could come up. Fireball is a great spell for enemies at a distance and for clustered enemies. Usually, in melee, I've found that by putting the focal point of the fireball a bit behind all the fighting, the outer edge catches the baddies without hurting your friendly neighborhood melee fighters.
> *




Unless you have a DM like me that rules you have to make a touch attack to strike the wall, otherwise that little bead has a chance of running into someone who might accidently get in the way - that can lead to nasty results.


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## Terraism (Jan 19, 2002)

*A second and a question...*

I'd second the people suggesting _Haste_, _Lightning Bolt_, _Slow_ and _Fly_.  Definitely good ideas, all of them.

Now - I do question - are your characters the same level?  (I'm asking because my group always tends to forget that sorcerers don't get 3rd level spells as soon as wizards - that might be something junk to find out.)

Also - I've been wondering for a while - can a sorcerer teach a spell to a wizard?  It wouldn't go the other way, but I'd _think_... hmm.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 19, 2002)

*Sorceror MUST have Haste.*

Haste should always be a sorceror's first 3rd level choice. Two spells a round really lets him bring his guns to bear.

And face it, everybody likes having a sorceror nearby to Haste him.

Second choice, a damaging 3rd level spell.

Next choice, Dispel Magic.

You can swap your damaging spell and Dispel Magic if you prefer to be the kind of sorceror who plays defense instead of offense.

But Haste... always your best first choice!


Wulf


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## Captain America (Jan 19, 2002)

*Different view*

The Sorcerer selection is likely to be raw power, at first. The traditional order is to take an offense, then defense, then versiltility. As such:

Offense:
-- Lightning Bolt, the better of the attack spells.
-- Fireball, if you commonly launch ambushes.
-- Haste, if the party chainsaws are numerous.
-- Vampiric Touch, if you have few healers or want flavor.
-- Summon Monster III, the most versitile of all.

Defense:
-- Dispel Magic, absolutely amazing.
-- Protection from Elements, if you commonly fight such.
-- Gust of Wind, knocks out flyers and gasses.
-- Slow, if you face many Hasting casters.

Versitility:
-- Magic Circle Against Evil, stops outsiders, cold.
-- Tongues, if you're the 'Face' of the group.
-- Major Image, always has use.
-- Fly, *the* movement spell.

For the Wizard, the criteria is different. You don't need it now and need it often, you need to be flexible. Let the Sorcer handle the blasting, while you handle things no one but a Mage can. As examples:

-- Stinking Cloud, for when you need them alive.
-- Clairvoyance, for knowledge is power.
-- Suggestion, for the soft touch.
-- Illusory Script, for when you do courrier plots.
-- Gaseous Form, because nobody else can.
-- Shrink Item, because, by golly, a pocket campfire gets used.

The Wizard, more than the sorcerer, can afford to be kind of floopy with his selection, as he gets more than the Sorcerer, and can always gather up scrolls. He's also MUCH more likely to pick up item creation feats, which can be used to 'Siphon' off from the Sorcerer.

If, for example, the Sorcerer takes Lightning Bolt, the Wizard can take Shrink Item, for planning ahead, and Clairvoyance, plus gets Craft Wand at 5th level for his Wizared feat. The two then work together to make the Wizard a Wand of Lightning Bolts (5th level) so that he, too, has offensive punch when needed. 

This lets you, for example, store a spare set of armor for a fighter, with Shrink Item, look ahead when in danger with your memorized spells, with Clairvoyance, and still have blasting power, in the form of Lightning Bolt.

Heck, you can get him to help you scribe a scroll of Lightning Bolt, then canabalize it to learn the spell and write it into your own book, if you just *have* to have an attack spell.

The Sorcerer should next get Dispell Magic, while the Wizard gets more diverse action. Invisibility Sphere if you're a group that often needs stealth, for example, or Greater Magic Weapon, if you plan on enchanting down the road.

Just remember: The Mage does wild things, the sorcerer does the basics. Keep it that way, and you'll always be happy.

-- Cap!


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## Lord Pendragon (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Sorceror MUST have Haste.*



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *Haste should always be a sorceror's first 3rd level choice. Two spells a round really lets him bring his guns to bear.
> 
> And face it, everybody likes having a sorceror nearby to Haste him.
> 
> ...




I play a wizard, and there was never a truer statement.  _Haste_ is a fantastic spell, is just as good cast on yourself or another party member, and never loses its usefulness.  At 20th-level your spellcaster will most likely _still_ be memorizing it on a daily basis.

Worry about Lightning Bolt vs. Fireball when you get your next spell, but for your first, nothing beats _Haste_.


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## MasterOfHeaven (Jan 20, 2002)

*Well*

I have to agree with Wulf about the Sorcerers third level spell of choice.  Haste boosts the power of any character significantly, giving the target extra attacks or spells, movement and even AC.  If he wants to go for damage, I'd say Lightning Bolt or Fireball are his best choices, of course.  Fly is another spell that will likely see a lot of use.



For the Wizard... as Captain America has said, the Wizard is not about damage, but versatility.  Get one or two spells for the basic damage/buffing, and then get the spells the Sorcerer can't afford to, like Tongues, Water Breathing, Phantom Steed and so on, allowing you to help your party in unusual situations.  Use Tongues so you can talk with any creature, Water Breathing to allow your party to go through an underground river, and Phantom Steed for that fast transport to deliver the vital message to the King, and so on.  

The Sorcerer is better than the Wizard at combat, but the Wizard makes up for it by being able to use his magic to deal with the situations where combat isn't an option.  Anyway, good luck and I hope the spells you guys choose will work out for you.


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## Rashak Mani (Jan 21, 2002)

We´re the same level but 6th lvl wont be too far off it seems... unfortunately the Sorceror had a close encounter with the falling rock trap kind       in yesterdays session.   Since the group is an evil one with little love for their companions I have become the only Arcane magic user.

    I took fireball... mainly because it damages always... save only makes the damage smaller.  Our DM is throwing big stuff at us and the chances of overcoming enemy saves arent too good.   Better to hurt em a little than not at all.

    I will be getting Slow spell next level thou... seems very good.

    Thanks for all your replies.


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## BronzeDragon (Jan 21, 2002)

Also, consider having the Empower Spell Feat, and try empowering a Magic Missile (thus making it "cost" a Lvl 3 slot).

Works like a charm. And no save BTW...


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## Vymair (Jan 21, 2002)

*3rd Spells*

I agree with the spells mentioned here, but I'd add Protection from Elements (the best dragon hunting spell there is) and if your DM handles illusions well, I'd look at Major Image as well.


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## J'quan (Jan 21, 2002)

I'd have to agree with a number of people in that _Haste_ is one of the most useful spells to get at 3rd level.  The added power it adds to a tank every round, or the added spellcasting you as a wizard/sorcerer can do, outstrips the damage output of a single spell in the experiences we've had.  Nothing like the flanking rogue getting hasted and then double-sneak attacking, or the main tank going in for extra attacks, or the sorcerer artillery battery firing off spells quicker.


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## Plane Sailing (Jan 21, 2002)

Not to mention the benefit you get yourself from a +4 to AC which stacks with everything else.

Get that haste spell!


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