# New listings on the WotC 2007 product page!



## Knightfall (Nov 22, 2006)

*Complete Champion*
*D&D Rules Supplement*
_Ed Stark, Chris Thomasson, Rhiannon Louve, Ari Marmell_

*New options for heroes with a divine cause.*

_Complete Champion_ focuses on the divine champion archetype and provides new rules options for characters who enjoy battling for a cause, defeating foes using divine power, and going on quests that mean more than simply defeating the bad guy and grabbing the treasure. This book also helps Dungeon Masters run quest-themed campaigns and adventures.

In addition to providing various archetypes for characters, _Complete Champion_ includes new feats and prestige classes. The book features dozens of deity- and belief-themed organizations, turning religion and holy (or unholy) power into something characters of all classes can use. For the Dungeon Master, this book contains information on constructing and running quests and holy missions. It assists the DM in helping all characters in the party to pursue divine paths simultaneously.







*Item Code* 955647200 
*Release Date* June 2007 
*Format* Hardcover 
*Page Count* 160 
*ISBN* 978-0-7869-4034-9 
*Price* $29.95; C$37.95
--------------------

*D&D Dungeon Tiles IV: Ruins of the Wild*
_Bruce R. Cordell_ 

Your tabletop never looked better! These Dungeon Tiles are the third in a new series of dungeon-building aids for Dungeon Masters. With *D&D Miniatures* and this pack of customizable dungeon grids, you can add a new dimension to your *D&D* adventures. Easy to set up and infinitely expandable, this pack allows you to create the dungeons and adventures you want to play. Future sets will allow players to create larger, more elaborate dungeons! 

This pack contains six durable, double-sided, four color illustrated dungeon grids, featuring rooms, corridors, and passages of various sizes, plus doors, walls, and other terrain elements that you can use to make great *D&D* encounters that enhance your roleplaying game experience.






*Item Code* 215287400 
*Release Date* May 2007 
*Format* Trade Paperback 
*ISBN* 978-0-7869-4708-9 
*Price* $9.95; C$12.95
--------------------

*Drow of the Underdark* 
*D&D Rules Supplement* 
Ari Marmell, Anthony Pryor, Robert J. Schwalb, Greg A. Vaughan 

*The essential guide to drow characters and drow society.*

At last, dark elves get their due! Drow of the Underdark is a 224-page *Dungeons & Dragons* supplement that provides the definitive treatise on the drow, arguably the *D&D* game’s most evocative evil race. Everything you want to know about drow and their subterranean homeland—as well as some things you didn’t know—can be found in this tome. This supplement is intended for players who want to play drow characters and Dungeon Masters who want to run *D&D* adventures and campaigns featuring drow.






*Item Code* 957267200 
*Release Date* May 2007 
*Format* Hardcover 
*Page Count* 224 
*ISBN* 978-0-7869-4151-3 
*Price* $34.95; C$44.00
--------------------

*Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk* 
*D&D Adventure* 
_Jason Bulmahn, James Jacobs, Erik Mona_ 

A *Dungeons & Dragons* super-adventure for characters of levels 8–13

_Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk_ is a 224-page *D&D* super-adventure that revisits Castle Greyhawk and the classic dungeon beneath. This adventure is usable as a mini-campaign on its own, a story arc in a Dungeon Master’s regular campaign, or as a series of small side adventures with a big payoff. Like other adventures in the “Expedition” series, this product takes a classic *Dungeons & Dragons* location, updates it for *D&D v.3.5*, and incorporates many new twists and surprises. This adventure also includes useful source material for the players and a combat encounter format designed to make the DM’s job easier.






*Item Code* 109257200 
*Release Date* August 2007 
*Format* Hardcover 
*Page Count* 224 
*ISBN* 978-0-7869-4358-6 
*Price* $34.95; C$46.95
--------------------

*Monster Manual V* 
*D&D Rules Supplement*

*New monsters ideal for any Dungeons & Dragons game.*

_Monster Manual V_ is the most recent volume in the best-selling Monster Manual line. This 224-page *D&D* supplement presents a fully illustrated horde of new monsters, as well as ready-to-play variations of previously existing monsters. In addition, this supplement features maps of monster lairs, sample encounters, and tactics sections to help Dungeon Masters run the more complex creatures. Additionally, many entries contain information about where monsters are likely to appear in the *Forgotten Realms* and *Eberron* campaign settings.






*Item Code* 956817200 
*Release Date* July 2007 
*Format* Hardcover 
*Page Count* 224 
*ISBN* 978-0-7869-4115-5 
*Price* $34.95; C$44.00
--------------------

*Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land* 
*A Forgotten Realms Supplement* 
_Richard Baker, Eric L. Boyd, Thomas M. Reid_ 

Elminster’s tower lies in ruins, and the town of Shadowdale has been conquered by evil Sharrans and the nefarious forces of Zhentil Keep. To drive the villains out of Shadowdale, the heroes must organize and lead a desperate revolt of Dalesfolk against their conquerors, as well as thwart the sinister designs of Shar’s servants and the Zhent garrison.

_Shadowdale: The Weave Unwinding_ is the second part of a three-part series of 160-page hardcover super-adventures set in the *Forgotten Realms* campaign setting, although it can be easily played as a stand-alone adventure. In addition to encounters, this book contains detailed source material on the town of Shadowdale and environs.






*Item Code* 955697200 
*Release Date* July 2007 
*Format* Hardcover 
*Page Count* 160 
*ISBN* 978-0-7869-4039-4 
*Price* $29.95; C$37.95
--------------------

*The Forge of War* 
*Eberron Campaign Supplement* 
_James Wyatt, Wolfgang Baur, Ari Marmell_ 

Secrets of the Last War revealed, plus new character options for war-torn heroes!

Explore the battles, campaigns, and heroes of the Last War with this richly detailed 160-page *Eberron* supplement. Add historical detail to campaigns set in *Eberron’s* present day, or send adventurers hurtling through time to avert the disaster of the Day of Mourning! _The Forge of War_ includes a comprehensive outline of the course of the war, extensive new character options for war-torn heroes, a variety of campaign options, and detailed descriptions of military forces, fortresses, and battlefields.






*Item Code* 957287200 
*Release Date* June 2007 
*Format* Hardcover 
*Page Count* 160 
*ISBN* 978-0-7869-4153-7 
*Price* $29.95; C$37.95
--------------------

*The Sinister Spire* 
*D&D Adventure* 
_Bruce R. Cordell and Ari Marmell_ 

The second adventure in a three-part series of core *Dungeons & Dragons* adventures.

_DD2 The Sinister Spire_ is the second adventure of a three-part series, but it can also be played as a stand-alone adventure. In the first adventure, _DD1 Barrow of the Forgotten King_, the heroes stumbled upon an evil plot involving the theft of ancient bones from a king’s tomb. In _The Sinister Spire_, the heroes chase the tomb-robbers into the Underdark and stumble upon a desolated subterranean city with a dark secret.

This 64-page adventure is designed for 4th-level characters and uses a combat encounter format designed to make the DM’s job easier.






*Item Code* 107977400 
*Release Date* July 2007 
*Format* Trade Paperback 
*Page Count* 64 
*ISBN* 978-0-7869-4357-9 
*Price* $19.95; C$24.95


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## Blue Sky (Nov 22, 2006)

Ohh, I'm drooling already over Forge of War...

One note though, the Shadowdale adventure lists "The Scouring of the Land" as the subtitle at the top, and "The Weave Unwinding" as the subtitle in the blurb.  Which one is it?


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## A'koss (Nov 22, 2006)

Greyhawk!!

But why oh why are the CDN prices so high...?


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## Dog Moon (Nov 22, 2006)

Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk?  IIRC, the Original was a dungeoncrawl.  Woohoo!

But seriously, Drow?  Oy...


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## Lidgar (Nov 22, 2006)

CASTLE GREYHAWK! CASTLE GREYHAWK! CASTLE GREYHAWK! CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!CASTLE GREYHAWK!

Finally!


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## Knightfall (Nov 22, 2006)

Blue Sky said:
			
		

> Ohh, I'm drooling already over Forge of War...
> 
> One note though, the Shadowdale adventure lists "The Scouring of the Land" as the subtitle at the top, and "The Weave Unwinding" as the subtitle in the blurb.  Which one is it?



I have no idea.



			
				A'koss said:
			
		

> Greyhawk!!
> 
> But why oh why are the CDN prices so high...?



The price is the same as the Castle Ravenloft one, but I agree that it's really high. That won't stop me from buying it, however.


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## Nyaricus (Nov 22, 2006)

Count me in for Complete Champion 

Here's hoping the new MM is better than numba 4.

More Dungeon Tiles... neat!!!

Whatever else is left: meh.

cheers,
--N


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## Ranger REG (Nov 22, 2006)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Greyhawk!!
> 
> But why oh why are the CDN prices so high...?



Ask your government.


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## Felon (Nov 22, 2006)

Blue Sky said:
			
		

> Ohh, I'm drooling already over Forge of War...
> 
> One note though, the Shadowdale adventure lists "The Scouring of the Land" as the subtitle at the top, and "The Weave Unwinding" as the subtitle in the blurb.  Which one is it?




The Cormyr book (the first in the series) has "The Weave Undoing" subtitle, it may just being how the entire series is referred to.


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## Knightfall (Nov 22, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Ask your government.



QFT.


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## EyeontheMountain (Nov 22, 2006)

Hmm, Complete champion and expedition to Greyhawk for me.

Otehrs, well, they range from unneeded(FR and Ebberon) to actively disliked (drow).

Feel free to substitute hated for disliked in the last sentence.

Thanks for the excellent post Knightfall


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## Felon (Nov 22, 2006)

Well, I guess we can officially get Erik Mona to talk about his big project now, maybe?

Kind of disappointed it isn't going to be a treatment of the seminal expedition module, "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks". A mixture of D&D with D20 Future elements would hit the spot. Don't recall anything about Castle Greyhawk itself, other than it having something to do with evil demigods, demons, and the Amazing Drider-Man being sealed up in it.

I see the MMV has a mind flayer on the cover. Hope we get some interesting variant mind flayers rather than layering class levels onto a creature with CR & HD of 8.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2006)

Finally, a long end to the Erik Mona's Secret Project conspiracy.    

MMV looks like the same setup as MMIV...bummer.


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## Knightfall (Nov 22, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> MMV looks like the same setup as MMIV...bummer.



Agreed. :\


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## Alzrius (Nov 22, 2006)

I find myself unable to get very excited about any of these. The Castle Greyhawk book seems like it'll be in the same format as the Castle Ravenloft one, and while other people seemed to like them, I didn't care for the two-page encounter spreads at all. Likewise, a MM5 that's in the same format at the MM4 doesn't seem like anything to get all hot and bothered over. The drow book looks interesting, I admit, but I wonder if I'm reaching my saturation point on the Complete books.

Maybe I'm just becoming jaded, but these all seem like products that somehow fall just a bit short of being exciting.


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## Beckett (Nov 22, 2006)

So that's Erik's project, along with James and Jason.  Seems so obvious.  I think I can find room on my shelf for it.

Complete Champion also has a spot, if it's anywhere as nifty as Complete Mage.

The Forge of War- dude.  I had been making plans to start my next Eberron game during the Last War.  Looks like I'll be holding off starting that until summer time (leaves me time to finish Age of Worms, and I think one of my players is buying me Shackled City, so it's not like I won't have anything to run until then).


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## Jason Bulmahn (Nov 22, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Finally, a long end to the Erik Mona's Secret Project conspiracy.
> 
> MMV looks like the same setup as MMIV...bummer.




I don't know.. MMV could be good. Not that I would know anything about that...

Jason Bulmahn
Tired Author


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## Jason Bulmahn (Nov 22, 2006)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, I guess we can officially get Erik Mona to talk about his big project now, maybe?




I wouldn't count on it just yet. The gag is still on pretty tight. At least we can admit the project exists now...

The stress of keeping it a secret was killing me.

Jason Bulmahn
Tired Author


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## Mark Hope (Nov 22, 2006)

Something has struck me about the current run of "Expedition to..." series.  We have Castle Ravenloft, Greyhawk Ruins, Undermountain and the Demonweb Pits (so far).  In other words, one each from what might be described as the Ravenloft, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Planescape settings (EttDP has been described as more Planescape inspired than a reworking of Q1, and although EtCR isn't set in the Ravenloft demiplane, the connection is strong).

Does anyone else think that this is intentional - one expedition each for the big campaign settings of yore?  Anyone think that we might see some more along this line later in the year?


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## glass (Nov 22, 2006)

Mark Hope said:
			
		

> Does anyone else think that this is intentional - one expedition each for the big campaign settings of yore?  Anyone think that we might see some more along this line later in the year?



Expedition to the City by the Silt Sea? Expedition to the Rock of Bral? 


glass.


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## MerricB (Nov 22, 2006)

IuztheEvil said:
			
		

> I wouldn't count on it just yet. The gag is still on pretty tight. At least we can admit the project exists now...
> 
> The stress of keeping it a secret was killing me.




I wonder why?

Seriously awesome news. Congratulations to the three of you (plus the others who worked on the project).

Hmm. I have a goal for after my County of Ulek game finishes. 

Cheers!


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## Ant (Nov 22, 2006)

Castle Greyhawk.  Finally.  I ... I think I've got a tear in my eye.

A lot of the other products look great as well.  The Dungeon Tiles have been awesome so far, Complete Champion is just my cup of tea and more adventures and monsters always make me happy.  Drow and Eberron leave me cold but, hey, overall I'm very pleased with what's in the pipeline.

But, yes, the new Greyhawk will be mine ...


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## Felon (Nov 22, 2006)

I knew we had the drow book coming, but I'm a little surprised that it's 224 pages. I wonder how much material they can cough up for that page count? Supposedly it's partially intended for players who want to play drow, but at +2 LA and offering no major ability score bonuses or special abilities, they're a pretty darn lousy deal for a player. Maybe the book will address that shortcoming by jazzing them up a bit, but it's sort of a damned-if-they-do situation since then the book would doubtless be likened to The Complete Book of Elves for 3rd edition.


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## jeffh (Nov 22, 2006)

glass said:
			
		

> Expedition to the City by the Silt Sea? Expedition to the Rock of Bral?



_Spelljammer _itself would be the obvious setting for a Spelljammer one. And I'd be more excited by _Expedition to the Lost Valley, Expedition to the Lost City, Expedition to the Temple of Death, _or anything else obviously hooked into Mystara.


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## Mark Hope (Nov 22, 2006)

glass said:
			
		

> Expedition to the City by the Silt Sea? Expedition to the Rock of Bral?
> 
> 
> glass.



I would love to see both of those (the former more than the latter, of course) but I doubt it would happen.  Both DS and SJ diverge from Core D&D in a number of ways that too much of the page count would have to be given over to outlining these issues to make it worthwhile (DS in particular - I'd imagine you'd have an easier job with SJ).  I'd love to be proven wrong, though!



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> I knew we had the drow book coming, but I'm a little surprised that it's 224 pages. I wonder how much material they can cough up for that page count? Supposedly it's partially intended for players who want to play drow, but at +2 LA and offering no major ability score bonuses or special abilities, they're a pretty darn lousy deal for a player. Maybe the book will address that shortcoming by jazzing them up a bit, but it's sort of a damned-if-they-do situation since then the book would doubtless be likened to The Complete Book of Elves for 3rd edition.



Well, it could go the same route as the 2e _Drow of the Underdark_ and also incorporate material from _Menzoberranzan_.  I'd reckon that you could get to 224 pages pretty easily with that stuff included.


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## MadMaxim (Nov 22, 2006)

Oooh, good stuff!


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## dargoth3 (Nov 22, 2006)

Hmm Amazon have Expedition to Undermountain listed as a June release but theres no sign of it on the WOTC product page


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## Mortis (Nov 22, 2006)

jeffh said:
			
		

> or anything else obviously hooked into Mystara.



Expedition to Castle Amber, Expedition to the Savage Coast, Expedition to the Isle of Dread (but I guess Pazio are taking care of that one)...

Regards
Mortis


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## Li Shenron (Nov 22, 2006)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Complete Champion*
> *D&D Rules Supplement*




It's about time they publish some book with new feats and prestige classes!


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## BryonD (Nov 22, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> MMV looks like the same setup as MMIV...bummer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you're saying that the MMV setup is different than MMIV?


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## Mark Hope (Nov 22, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Expedition to Castle Amber...



That would be awesome!


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## EyeontheMountain (Nov 22, 2006)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> It's about time they publish some book with new feats and prestige classes!




You forgot the [/sarcasm]


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## xmanii (Nov 22, 2006)

Complete Divine, Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land and possibly Drow of the Underdark looks like something I will be picking up.


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## an_idol_mind (Nov 22, 2006)

The Castle Greyhawk thing seems...odd to me. It's definitely a break from WotC not publishing anything at all for Greyhawk.

I don't play in the Forgotten Realms, but this super adventure seems like something that I could use in my current game to really shake things up. I've been looking for something big to rattle the status quo in my campaign, and this adventure might be it.


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## Razz (Nov 22, 2006)

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

*Monster Manual V* is just going to be another *Monster Manual IV*. 

*STOP THE MADNESS! *


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## JoeGKushner (Nov 22, 2006)

Castle Greyhawk might be worth looking into for nostalgia purposes but everything else gets the standard "m'eh".

And even Castle Greyhawk might get that label as it's an adventure and with Shackled City still being run and not even started on Age of Worms, not to mention Savage Tide, it's not really something I need.


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## The Lost Muse (Nov 22, 2006)

For those Canadians who feel they are getting price gouged... check out www.vesivus.com 

They don't have everything they carry listed on their site, but it's a neat little place with excellent prices.


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## Cedric (Nov 22, 2006)

Razz said:
			
		

> NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
> 
> *Monster Manual V* is just going to be another *Monster Manual IV*.
> 
> *STOP THE MADNESS! *




Ok, I've read several people expressing the same sentiment recently. I've never actually looked at the MMIV, what's the big deal?


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## The_Gneech (Nov 22, 2006)

*Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk*

Woohoo!

*Monster Manual V*

Like _MMIV_, eh? Sweet! That was a good one.

*The Sinister Spire*

I always like more adventures, count me in!

On the whole, I'd say it's looking good!

-The Gneech


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## delericho (Nov 22, 2006)

Cedric said:
			
		

> Ok, I've read several people expressing the same sentiment recently. I've never actually looked at the MMIV, what's the big deal?




MMIV broke the 'formula' in a lot of ways.

Firstly, it included pre-generated encounters and lairs for some of the monsters, which some people object to. They expect monster books to be about, well, monsters.

Secondly, it included the "Spawn of Tiamat", of which there were about 20. That's an awful lot of pages dedicated to beasties that are fairly niche items.

Thirdly, and probably most controversially, it included a lot of 'advanced' versions of monsters from the first MM, which basically amounted to Drow, Lizardfolk, Orcs and the like with a few class levels tacked on. I must say I initially hated that idea, but now feel that those pages are probably the best-used in the book. The new monsters strike me as mostly too oddball to see much use. Where the stats fall down, though, is that they have restricted themselves to low-level creatures (which are the easiest to homebrew), and restricted themselves to 'easy' advancements (I don't need a book to do a Drow Ninja 4 for me, thanks).

Between points 1 and 3, the new and expanded stat block and monster format, plus a relatively large text size, MMIV actually has very few new monsters. In fact the book has fewer monsters (and far fewer 'good' monsters IMO) than the 96-page softcover "Monsters of Faerun".


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## Psion (Nov 22, 2006)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Drow of the Underdark*
> *D&D Rules Supplement*
> Ari Marmell, Anthony Pryor, Robert J. Schwalb, Greg A. Vaughan




Two authors I trust and lack of the one author I don't want anywhere near drow.

I'm hopeful.



> *Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk*
> *D&D Adventure*
> _Jason Bulmahn, James Jacobs, Erik Mona_




I'm hoping the inclusion of the words "Ruins" is intentional and meaningful. I loved the moody dungeon crawl that was Greyhawk Ruins. I loathed the silliness that was Castle Greyhawk.



> *Monster Manual V*
> *D&D Rules Supplement*
> 
> *New monsters ideal for any Dungeons & Dragons game.*
> ...




A mind flayer looking thing on the cover. Please tell me that this means you aren't going to treat psionics like a red-headed stepchild this time around.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Nov 22, 2006)

"At last, dark elves get their due!" - I though that already happened back in 2e!

Castle Greyhawk...mixed feelings about this. On one hand, Erik Mona's passion for Greyhawk has always been clear, on the other hand I can't help but think that C&C's Castle Zagyg will be far more true to the original and exciting, after looking at the last Expedition.

However, "Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land" is pretty darn cool. Trashing one of the pillars of the Realms is a gutsy move that I can respect.


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## RodneyThompson (Nov 22, 2006)

IuztheEvil said:
			
		

> I don't know.. MMV could be good. Not that I would know anything about that...
> 
> Jason Bulmahn
> Tired Author




Pshaw, what do you know, Bulmahn? The book was probably written by a bunch of hacks. Not that I would know anything about that...


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## an_idol_mind (Nov 22, 2006)

Jyrdan Fairblade said:
			
		

> "At last, dark elves get their due!" - I though that already happened back in 2e!




It certainly did. Drow of the Underdark was the name of a Forgotten Realms supplement. Although, as I remember, that supplement was one of the better sourcebooks for the Realms.


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## S. Baldrick (Nov 22, 2006)

Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk!  All I can say is "Yes!"
The other stuff is cool but I was hoping that Wizards would do something with Greyhawk again.


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## KB9JMQ (Nov 22, 2006)

The Greyhawk and Eberron books will be mine.


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 22, 2006)

Lot of interesting new stuff.

I wonder if Complete Champion will have new spells for shugenja and shamans, since Complete Mage had new spells for wu jen.


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## Waldorf (Nov 22, 2006)

Greyhawk. Finally.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 22, 2006)

Complete Champion looks interesting.

I hope those pictures for the tile set are wrong. Looks like the same inn/bar/whatever in one of the pictures.

The Greyhawk adventure certainly has my interest.


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## greywulf (Nov 22, 2006)

Lots of love about this list. I'll even forgive them Yet Another Complete Book, as they've turned out to be a better resource than I'd originally given them credit for. 

In fact, I can't find much to fault in the product list at all. I loved MMIV for being the first genuinely GM-friendly Monster Manual (and streets ahead of the gawd-awful MMII), so I really do hope that MMV is more of the same. It looks like it.

If Greyhawk is half as good as Castle Ravenloft, it'll be twice as good as....errr.....um.....never mind. Yes, it looketh good.

Shame about the drow stuff though. Ah well.


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## delericho (Nov 22, 2006)

Looks like a few cheap months for me. I'll pick up a number of those adventures, and possibly MMV. I will also get Complete Champion, but not until 'Complete Warrior II' is out, at which point I'll pick up the full set, the same as I did with the first set (unless 4e has been announced by then, of course).


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## Cthulhudrew (Nov 22, 2006)

Mark Hope said:
			
		

> Does anyone else think that this is intentional - one expedition each for the big campaign settings of yore?  Anyone think that we might see some more along this line later in the year?




As long as its Expedition to Castle Amber and not Expedition to Castle Caldwell, that's fine with me.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 22, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> A mind flayer looking thing on the cover. Please tell me that this means you aren't going to treat psionics like a red-headed stepchild this time around.



It kind of looks draconic as well. Not that I really expect that to happen, but maybe the brainstealer dragon (Dragon 337) makes the jump to hardcover?


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## Arnwyn (Nov 22, 2006)

Definitely some interesting stuff there - I'm really loving the continued support of adventures.

For sure I'll be getting:
- Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land (for my FR game)
- The Sinister Spire
- Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk (which I will incorporate into my FR game)

I will look over Drow of the Underdark, but am skeptical that it will be much more useful than the original FOR2 Drow of the Underdark (2e). "Drow finally get their due" indeed. *snort* 

The other books will barely rate a glance from me.



			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Ask your government.



Incorrect. Of course, this has already long since been covered in another thread. The correct answer, of course, is "ask WotC". They are the ones ripping off Canadian customers due to "misjudging" the exchange rate. Lowballing it allows them to make a few extra bucks. (And IAAC - I am an accountant.)



			
				Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> QFT.



Incorrect. Actually, it would be QFCAUF ("quoted for complete and utter falsehood").


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## JoeGKushner (Nov 22, 2006)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> It certainly did. Drow of the Underdark was the name of a Forgotten Realms supplement. Although, as I remember, that supplement was one of the better sourcebooks for the Realms.





Drow of the Underdark
Mezzobranzen
Complete Drow Handbook

For 3.0/3.5
Plot and Poison by GR
Dvazzoid by GR (Drow Fortress... probably spelled the name wrong.)
Quintessential Drow by Mongoose
Complete Guide To The Drow by Goodman


Lots of little bits in various Underdark resources and othe rareas like Races of Faerun.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 22, 2006)

Oh, and I forgot to mention that:

Tiles IV is listed in the copy as the third in a set. Huh? That really shouldn't be that hard to catch. Hopefully they'll fix that soon.


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## thatdarnedbob (Nov 22, 2006)

Oo! Drow! Greyhawk! Another MM! I feel like a pig rolling around in RPG mud



			
				Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Incorrect. Of course, this has already long since been covered in another thread. The correct answer, of course, is "ask WotC". They are the ones ripping off Canadian customers due to "misjudging" the exchange rate. Lowballing it allows them to make a few extra bucks. (And IAAC - I am an accountant.)




Wouldn't import taxes and such have anything to do with it?


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## Vurt (Nov 22, 2006)

thatdarnedbob said:
			
		

> Wouldn't import taxes and such have anything to do with it?




OK, I freely admit I know absolutely nothing about the topic, but allow me to take a wild guess: NAFTA?

Cheers,
Vurt


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## cignus_pfaccari (Nov 22, 2006)

I am most pleased with Forge of War.  Being a bit of a fluff-hound, it should be nice.

Brad


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## The_Old_one (Nov 22, 2006)

I'm going to have to pick up MMV, just because of the tentacled monster-thing on the cover. I loves me some tentacle/mind flayer goodness, and this looks promising.

The adventures I'll be all over, especially the FR trilogy, even though I'm planning to run a Scarred Lands campaign...they can always be saved for a future campaign, and I like the idea of an epic trilogy that tears seven shades out of the setting.

As for Drow of the Underdark? Meh, I've already got the 2nd edition book by the same name and enough other Drow books to more than sate any interest in them. How about Githzerai of the Astral Plane? Now that, I would buy.   

Edit: Did I say Githzerai? Of course I meant Githyanki of the Astral. D'oh!


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## Arnwyn (Nov 22, 2006)

thatdarnedbob said:
			
		

> Wouldn't import taxes and such have anything to do with it?



No, but I don't really want to get into it (_again_) here. If you want, you can search ENWorld for the past thread/posts on the topic, and if you're not willing to take a professional accountant's word on the matter, there's even a CBC News report out there somewhere, too.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 22, 2006)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> No, but I don't really want to get into it (_again_) here. If you want, you can search ENWorld for the past thread/posts on the topic, and if you're not willing to take a professional accountant's word on the matter, there's even a CBC News report out there somewhere, too.



I'm assuming this one. Remember, not everyone has access to Search.


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## 3catcircus (Nov 22, 2006)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I find myself unable to get very excited about any of these. The Castle Greyhawk book seems like it'll be in the same format as the Castle Ravenloft one, and while other people seemed to like them, I didn't care for the two-page encounter spreads at all. Likewise, a MM5 that's in the same format at the MM4 doesn't seem like anything to get all hot and bothered over. The drow book looks interesting, I admit, but I wonder if I'm reaching my saturation point on the Complete books.
> 
> Maybe I'm just becoming jaded, but these all seem like products that somehow fall just a bit short of being exciting.




While I like the encounter format, I'd like it a heck of a lot better if all of the maps were available as scale-size downloads.

As to MMV - I didn't understand MMIV - what - different "builds" for a given monster, each of which seems to be based around the core classes added to the monster?  I can do the same thing on my own - no thanks WotC.

I'll be interested in all of the adventures, for sure.


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## Arnwyn (Nov 22, 2006)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Remember, not everyone has access to Search.



Oh, I'm quite aware of that. My point was "I'm not going into it again."

Back on topic:
I am curious about MMV, though chances are I will skip that one like I skipped MMIV. I am also curious as to how those 'generic' adventures link together.


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## Brakkart (Nov 22, 2006)

Well the Complete Champion and Shadowdale books will be mine. I am kinda wondering what the Realms will look like come 4th edition consideringn what the heartlands are going through of late (Cormyr drained and struggling to holds its own, droughts and other weather problems, Zhents conquering the Moonsea and Dales, Sembia in civil war/being overrun by the Shades, the elves back in Cormanthyr), it's going to be a very different place. Should be interesting.

I'll have a look at the Greyhawk book, but I'd have much preferred a Campaign setting like the FRCS to this as the Secret Project. Ohh well. As for the idea of the Expedition series taking place in each of the old settings, I'll cast my vote for an Expedition to Assassin Mountain or an Expedition to the Ruined Kingdoms (Al-Qadim), and definately an Expedition to the Lost City (Mystara).


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## Matchstick (Nov 22, 2006)

Sinister Spire!  

Cordellian/Marmellian goodness!


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## BadMojo (Nov 22, 2006)

I'm pretty excited about the Eberron Last War book since it's been something I've been hoping to see since the setting was introduced.

I'll give Complete Champion a look, mostly because I found Complete Divine to be kind of average and uninspiring, while the later Complete books have, IMO, been pretty good.

I'm dying to play in that Forgotten Realms super adventure when it comes out (hint, hint to my DM).


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## Troll Wizard (Nov 22, 2006)

Complete Champion and MMV for me; otherwise I don't buy modules or campaign specific books for FR or Eberron.

MMIV is not liked by quite a few posters here and over on WOTC own boards because of the format change, but I and several other DMs with busy lives really enjoy and get a lot of use of the new format.  If MMV's format is identical to MMIV, which it appears to be, then it means that sales for MMIV were good enough for WOTC to continue the MM's in the same format.


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## Jason Bulmahn (Nov 22, 2006)

Moridin said:
			
		

> Pshaw, what do you know, Bulmahn? The book was probably written by a bunch of hacks. Not that I would know anything about that...





I know plenty Rodney.. Don't go getting "Cheeky" with me

Jason Bulmahn
Tired Author
Beware the "Tooth"


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## Felon (Nov 22, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> A mind flayer looking thing on the cover. Please tell me that this means you aren't going to treat psionics like a red-headed stepchild this time around.




Is there a way to address psionic monsters that allows them to be useful to those who don't have the psionics handbooks? Can a pychic warrior or soulknife be presented as easily as a scout or warmage?


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## Felon (Nov 22, 2006)

Troll Wizard said:
			
		

> MMIV is not liked by quite a few posters here and over on WOTC own boards because of the format change, but I and several other DMs with busy lives really enjoy and get a lot of use of the new format.  If MMV's format is identical to MMIV, which it appears to be, then it means that sales for MMIV were good enough for WOTC to continue the MM's in the same format.




I'd like to see the classed monsters reined in a bit; they were a little too prevalent in MMIV. I'd also like to see classes for some of the monsters with untapped potential, like avolakias and braxats. Heck, tap stuff from MMII and Fiend Folio so that we get some 3.5-compliant stat blocks if nothing else.


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## rjs (Nov 22, 2006)

Moridin said:
			
		

> Pshaw, what do you know, Bulmahn? The book was probably written by a bunch of hacks. Not that I would know anything about that...




Undoubtedly. Hacks, each and every one


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## Darrell (Nov 22, 2006)

Hmmmmmm....

I'll have one o' them there _Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk_ thingys, I believe.  Dungeon Tiles, too, as I'm pretty much picking up a couple of each set; and probably _Monster Manual V_.  Don't know about much of the rest, but probably not the Drow or FR material, and I'd be burned in Hell before I lay down so much as a nickel for anything Eberron.



			
				Troll Wizard said:
			
		

> MMIV is not liked by quite a few posters here and over on WOTC own boards because of the format change, but I and several other DMs with busy lives really enjoy and get a lot of use of the new format.




Ditto.  _Monster Manual IV_ is the only one I have other than the Core _Monster Manual_, and quite frankly, it's *because* of the 'advanced' regular critters.  It cuts down on my prep time to have 'em already set to run.  I never use most of the other critters, anyway.  I'd like to see WotC go back and re-do _Monster Manuals I-III_ in this same way.

Regards,
Darrell King


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## Psion (Nov 22, 2006)

Felon said:
			
		

> Is there a way to address psionic monsters that allows them to be useful to those who don't have the psionics handbooks? Can a pychic warrior or soulknife be presented as easily as a scout or warmage?




I'm paying for the book too. A non-psionic mind flayer is just as useless to me as a psionic mind flayer is to you.

They managed it in lords of madness. They can manage it in other books as well.


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## Dragonhelm (Nov 22, 2006)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> The Castle Greyhawk thing seems...odd to me. It's definitely a break from WotC not publishing anything at all for Greyhawk.





It isn’t that their supporting the Greyhawk setting so much as it is that they’re trying to profit off of a classic element of D&D with name recognition.  Expedition to Castle Ravenloft wasn’t so much support for the Ravenloft setting as it was a reimagining of the original module.  

My only concern with this Greyhawk module is that it may be a departure from what Gygax had planned for the super-dungeon.  Granted, I enjoyed the Castle Greyhawk module and Greyhawk Ruins, so it’s not like I’m a purist here (though there are plenty of purists out there).  

Luckily, we have Castle Zagyg to quench the thirst for Gygax’s vision.  I hope that this new product will touch upon Greyhawk Ruins some.  I’m not holding my breath for Castle Greyhawk.    Still, even if it isn’t Gygax’s vision, then at least it’ll be a nice variant.  Castle Zagyg can be fit into the Greyhawk setting anyway, so all’s good.

Beyond that, I love the Complete class books, so Complete Champion is a must.  I have the original Drow of the Underdark, so I’m not sure I really need a new version.  I guess it depends on how well this one is done.  And yes, I’m a sucker for monster books.


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## Ry (Nov 22, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Ask your government.






			
				Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> QFT.




More like QF...WTF?  CAD's trading against USD @ 0.875 - sounds like Wizards is just out of touch with the exchange rate.


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## drscott46 (Nov 22, 2006)

Pardon my density and overall laziness, but it says the Shadowdale adventure is part two in a trilogy.  What was part one?  _City of the Spider Queen_ was the only 3/3.5e big adventure for FR that I can recall.


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## Jdvn1 (Nov 22, 2006)

No news on Dungeonscape?


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## Brakkart (Nov 22, 2006)

drscott46 said:
			
		

> Pardon my density and overall laziness, but it says the Shadowdale adventure is part two in a trilogy.  What was part one?  _City of the Spider Queen_ was the only 3/3.5e big adventure for FR that I can recall.




Part 1 of the Trilogy is out in March and is named Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave. It is also a 160 page hardcover by the same authors.


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## Wavestone (Nov 22, 2006)

*simu-post*



			
				drscott46 said:
			
		

> Pardon my density and overall laziness, but it says the Shadowdale adventure is part two in a trilogy.  What was part one?  _City of the Spider Queen_ was the only 3/3.5e big adventure for FR that I can recall.




Part one is probably this adventure:

Cormyr:The tearing of the Weave

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/956857200


edit - beaten to it by Brakkart


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## Jdvn1 (Nov 22, 2006)

rycanada said:
			
		

> More like QF...WTF?  CAD's trading against USD @ 0.875 - sounds like Wizards is just out of touch with the exchange rate.



 Or, they have taxes to cover?


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## Arnwyn (Nov 22, 2006)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Or, they have taxes to cover?



Dude. We've already been over this.


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## Gundark (Nov 22, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Ask your government.




It aint the government that sets the price


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## Talath (Nov 22, 2006)

Castle Greyhawk ... you know, if the Trolls weren't working on Castle Zagyg, I'd care more than I do now. I will still pick it up, but I consider Castle Zagyg the true CG. It's sorta interesting, because I know the Trolls have had CZ in the works for a while, and WoTC plans their product schedule out far into the future. But it still works like this.

2005:
*Trolls:* Hey, we're making Castle Zagyg, and it's the Gygax doing the writing!
*WoTC:* Whatever, we have Eberron.

2007:
*Trolls:* Hey, we're still making Castle Zagyg.
*WoTC:* That's nice. Oh btw, bling bling, Castle Greyhawk! We're releasing it in August!
*Trolls:* But ... but ... we're making Castle Zagyg ...
*WoTC:* CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK!


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## delericho (Nov 22, 2006)

Gundark said:
			
		

> It aint the government that sets the price




Call me crazy, but maybe the answer is for WotC to just not state a Canadian price. Let the distributors import it, let the stores set the prices, and let the current exchange rate take the appropriate effect.

For those who suffer from this decision - why not just order from US-based internet stores, and have them ship it to you? (Last year, I was without a FLGS, and found that ordering from Amazon.com was cheaper than ordering from any UK-based supplier, a fact I found rather distressing, but one I wasn't slow to take advantage of.)


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## delericho (Nov 22, 2006)

Talath said:
			
		

> Castle Greyhawk ... you know, if the Trolls weren't working on Castle Zagyg, I'd care more than I do now. I will still pick it up, but I consider Castle Zagyg the true CG. It's sorta interesting, because I know the Trolls have had CZ in the works for a while, and WoTC plans their product schedule out far into the future. But it still works like this.




I would be shocked if Wizards paid any attention to the release schedule of any other company (maybe White Wolf). I was also be somewhat surprised if the existence of XRG has any bearing on sales of CZ. I would expect that most people who knew about and were interested in CZ remain aware and interested even in light of this announcement.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2006)

IuztheEvil said:
			
		

> I don't know.. MMV could be good. Not that I would know anything about that...
> 
> Jason Bulmahn
> Tired Author




Seeing as Mike McArtor just indicated in another thread that classed MM critters probably won't be appearing, and the fact that he and you are involved, this just went from "must skip" to "must see".


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## Ranger REG (Nov 22, 2006)

delericho said:
			
		

> Call me crazy, but maybe the answer is for WotC to just not state a Canadian price. Let the distributors import it, let the stores set the prices, and let the current exchange rate take the appropriate effect.



I've always wonder, does this currency exchange rate [farce] system works for or against the US dollar?


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## BadMojo (Nov 22, 2006)

Brakkart said:
			
		

> Part 1 of the Trilogy is out in March and is named Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave. It is also a 160 page hardcover by the same authors.




Sounds like a cool trilogy, and I'd guess it has something to do with Paul Kemp's new novel "Shadowbred".

Still, every time I read the words "Tearing of the Weave" I can't help but think about the violent removal of someone's hair-weave.

I'm even mildly interested in the drow book, based on the authors.  I certainly can't blame Wizards for releasing a product on a popular topic either.


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## Dragonhelm (Nov 22, 2006)

delericho said:
			
		

> I would be shocked if Wizards paid any attention to the release schedule of any other company (maybe White Wolf). I was also be somewhat surprised if the existence of XRG has any bearing on sales of CZ. I would expect that most people who knew about and were interested in CZ remain aware and interested even in light of this announcement.




I could see it both ways.  On the one hand, WotC is so big that they could easily ignore other companies.  

I don't think that's the case, though.  For example, Unearthed Arcana came out after Arcana Unearthed.  Some of the ideas and themes from UA appear to be borrowed from AU (i.e. racial paragon levels, totem barbarian).  This suggests to me that WotC does indeed pay attention to its competitors and may even use their releases to boost their own sales.  This also has the effect of giving them a product to directly compete with other companies.  A D&D fan may compare two similar products and go with the WotC version just because of the company name and D&D brand.  

It may also depend on who you talk to in WotC.  


So really, what we have here are two visions.  One is Gygax's vision, which we can see in Castle Zagyg.  Since WotC owns the Greyhawk intellectual property, it is within their rights to produce a different vision.  I don't know how much of Gygax's vision will be in this product, but I do trust that the authors will be very true to the setting.  The end result, though, is that we have two different visions to use and two different adventures to play.  Since Castle Zagyg can easily be put into Greyhawk, an adventuring party may very well go through both mega-dungeons.

And who knows?  Maybe the two will complement each other nicely.


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## Arnwyn (Nov 22, 2006)

I suspect that the different versions of the Castle (G or Z) will be wildly different - so much so as to be completely unrecognizable from each other. I doubt (though someone correct me if I'm wrong) that WotC has Gary's original maps, for example.




			
				delericho said:
			
		

> Call me crazy, but maybe the answer is for WotC to just not state a Canadian price. Let the distributors import it, let the stores set the prices, and let the current exchange rate take the appropriate effect.



You are (you also don't know what you're talking about).

That's not how the publishing industry works, so I'm not sure who you're directing this "answer" to. I think many people who aren't Americans would be quite happy if WotC/publishers in general did _not_ state a price on books. (Now, with all that said, in many cases, stores do ignore the (inappropriate) listed price and instead sell for the non-inflated price. But this is hardly universal.)

Anyways, as I said - we've covered this already. Why is it so difficult for people to simply accept the already-explained situation? Stop. It.



> For those who suffer from this decision - why not just order from US-based internet stores, and have them ship it to you?



This is an even worse situation for Canadians, because _now_ we're talking about import taxes and duties, along with shipping and sometimes even exchange rate conversion surcharges.



			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> I've always wonder, does this currency exchange rate [farce] system works for or against the US dollar?



I'm not sure what you mean. The answer would be "it doesn't". What it _does_ work for is the publisher.

Gah! END HIJACK! (Please!)


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## delericho (Nov 22, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> I've always wonder, does this currency exchange rate [farce] system works for or against the US dollar?




I'm not an expert in economics, so take this with a pinch or two of salt. However, my understanding is that while the dollar is relatively weak (as it was earlier in the year, though it may have rallied) it works against US businesses, and particularly those who have to import any materials. Conversely, when the dollar is relatively strong, the situation favours US businesses.

(I do recall some commentary that suggested some of President Bush's advisors were concerned that the dollar was dangerously weak. However, I would bet that there's some sort of 'sweet spot' for currency value, and that you probably don't want to become too weak or too strong. So that's not necessarily an indicator of anything. All I do know is that for a while, I got some really good deals on books and DVDs.)

On the WotC books, the situation does lead to them getting a bit more bang for their book, as the prices listed are higher than what otherwise would be charged, which should lead to everyone in the chain getting more money...

except that it doesn't always work that way. There's a trade-off between high-margin low-volume sales and low-margin high-volume sales. Which is to say you might make more money selling one book at $100 than selling two at $60 each. Or not.


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## Numion (Nov 22, 2006)

Talath said:
			
		

> Castle Greyhawk ... you know, if the Trolls weren't working on Castle Zagyg, I'd care more than I do now. I will still pick it up, but I consider Castle Zagyg the true CG. It's sorta interesting, because I know the Trolls have had CZ in the works for a while, and WoTC plans their product schedule out far into the future. But it still works like this.




If they started dodging all products similar to theirs they'd be outta business, what with the gazillion d20 publishers.

Besides, Castle Zagyg is not for d20, is it now? Different systems ..


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## delericho (Nov 22, 2006)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> You are (you also don't know what you're talking about).




There is absolutely no need to be rude.


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## Erik Mona (Nov 22, 2006)

Talath said:
			
		

> 2007:
> *Trolls:* Hey, we're still making Castle Zagyg.
> *WoTC:* That's nice. Oh btw, bling bling, Castle Greyhawk! We're releasing it in August!
> *Trolls:* But ... but ... we're making Castle Zagyg ...
> *WoTC:* CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK CASTLE GREYHAWK!




I'm fairly certain that Wizards of the Coast doesn't pay very close attention to other gaming companies, and that the two products have nothing to do with one another insofar as sales strategy is concerned. If anything, the Expedition product ought to _help_ sales of "Castle Zagyg." WotC publishes (and sells) quantities at least an order of magnitude higher than all other companies in the business, so increased attention for the Castle ought to help Troll Lords far more than it will hurt them.

I certainly hope this is the case, as I have been faithfully buying CZ since it came out and will be early in line for all subsequent volumes.

--Erik


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## Erik Mona (Nov 22, 2006)

Dragonhelm said:
			
		

> So really, what we have here are two visions.  One is Gygax's vision, which we can see in Castle Zagyg.  Since WotC owns the Greyhawk intellectual property, it is within their rights to produce a different vision.  I don't know how much of Gygax's vision will be in this product, but I do trust that the authors will be very true to the setting.  The end result, though, is that we have two different visions to use and two different adventures to play.  Since Castle Zagyg can easily be put into Greyhawk, an adventuring party may very well go through both mega-dungeons.
> 
> And who knows?  Maybe the two will complement each other nicely.




That would certainly be my preference. You can easily add levels to the adventure we created, so it is not outside the realm of possibility that you could play a Castle Greyhawk mega-adventure that included levels from "Expedition," "Greyhawk Ruins," and "Castle Zagyg." If you really hated yourself and your players, you could even throw in a few levels from WG7.

--Erik


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## Jdvn1 (Nov 22, 2006)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Dude. We've already been over this.



Hey, sorry for coming to the thread late. You may have been over this, but the "me" part of "we" hasn't. 


			
				Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Gah! END HIJACK! (Please!)



So, oops:
[sblock=hijack]







			
				delericho said:
			
		

> I'm not an expert in economics, so take this with a pinch or two of salt. However, my understanding is that while the dollar is relatively weak (as it was earlier in the year, though it may have rallied) it works against US businesses, and particularly those who have to import any materials. Conversely, when the dollar is relatively strong, the situation favours US businesses.



As an Economics student, let me take a crack at this.

In general, a weak dollar (or a weakening dollar, relative to other currencies) is good for US business, good for exports, and bad for foreign entities who want to import to the US. Economists refer to this as the "Paradox of the Weak Dollar."

The simplest equation for calculating the Gross Domestic Product is (Consumer Spending) + (Private Investment Business Spending (business spending)) + (Government Spending) + [(Exports) - (Imports)].

When the US Dollar gets cheaper compared to another currency, US goods become cheaper in other countries and foreign goods become more expensive in the US. That makes overseas US goods more enticing to consumers, and they buy more and we sell more overseas. Foreign goods, in exchange, get more expensive in the US, and US consumers are less likely to buy them, and we import less.

Or, Exports gets better and Imports gets smaller. When the Exports part of the equation gets bigger, GDP gets bigger, since it's added to factor into GDP. When Imports gets smaller, GDP gets bigger, since it's subtracted to factor into GDP.

Long story short, GDP gets bigger, the US economy gets stronger, and everyone (including businesses) benefit, all else equal.

Of course, that isn't the whole story. If the US dollar were inconsistent, it'd lose value very quickly, and no one would be able to trust it. It'd be an unstable currency. But, that isn't happening.


			
				delericho said:
			
		

> (I do recall some commentary that suggested some of President Bush's advisors were concerned that the dollar was dangerously weak. However, I would bet that there's some sort of 'sweet spot' for currency value, and that you probably don't want to become too weak or too strong. So that's not necessarily an indicator of anything. All I do know is that for a while, I got some really good deals on books and DVDs.)



If President Bush's advisors said that, they're falling victim to the fallacy. There aren't a lot of Economists up there, so it isn't surprising (and wouldn't be the first time), but it's possible you (or they) got confused and said it was making a dangerous comeback.[/sblock]


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## Eela6 (Nov 22, 2006)

Wait.

227 pages of advice and stuff for people who want to play Drow? I thought that could be done in one sentence.

"Don't do it - you have LA+2."


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## Talath (Nov 22, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm fairly certain that Wizards of the Coast doesn't pay very close attention to other gaming companies, and that the two products have nothing to do with one another insofar as sales strategy is concerned. If anything, the Expedition product ought to _help_ sales of "Castle Zagyg." WotC publishes (and sells) quantities at least an order of magnitude higher than all other companies in the business, so increased attention for the Castle ought to help Troll Lords far more than it will hurt them.
> 
> I certainly hope this is the case, as I have been faithfully buying CZ since it came out and will be early in line for all subsequent volumes.
> 
> --Erik




Holy crap! Erik Mona responded to my post!

I hope you see that my post was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek.   Even though I was implying commercial espionage, it was a humorous, and not serious. Honestly, I think it's awesome that WoTC is doing Castle Greyhawk, just because their support of the setting has been little to nil. I feel confident that you and the other authors will do the best job you can; especially since I know from internet heresay and stuff you've done with Greyhawk that you really care about the setting, and wouldn't release a travesty like Greyhawk Castle from back in the Lorraine Williams era of TSR.

In short, it's good news. Forgive me if I seemed like an ass


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## Crust (Nov 22, 2006)

I'm drooling over Shadowdale.  We gamed in the Shadowdale region for six years.  That'll probably be an auto-buy.


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## delericho (Nov 22, 2006)

[sblock=hijack]







			
				Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> As an Economics student, let me take a crack at this.




Thanks for clearing that up.



> If President Bush's advisors said that, they're falling victim to the fallacy. There aren't a lot of Economists up there, so it isn't surprising (and wouldn't be the first time), but it's possible you (or they) got confused and said it was making a dangerous comeback.




Indeed. It's also possible that it was people on the other side out to make cheap political gains.[/sblock]


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 23, 2006)

Well, as an old and rickety gamer who started playing when Carter was in office, I can't help but be interested in Expedition Greyhawk. That said, I sure hope it's done in a way that's sufficiently world-neutral so as to be able to insert it under Ptolus as part of The Dungeon, since my preference is now just to stick with one game world. (Castle Ravenloft, for instance, will be set in the Hotash Mountains of the Prustan Peninsula, north of my current Midwood campaign, all of which is in the same world as Ptolus.)

(EDIT: And the same thing about the module series that includes the Sinister Spire.)

I can see getting the drow book as a _DM resource only_.

Despite personally being sort of "meh" on clerics, religion has turned out to be really important in my Midwood campaign and I suspect Complete Champion will be quite useful to us.

And I just don't have the time in my stupidly busy life to roll up lots of monsters from scratch, so count me as one of those people not upset about MMV's editorial direction although I'm 100 percent sympathetic to people who would rather have such information in a book called something else instead.


----------



## Odhanan (Nov 23, 2006)

I am really, really impressed by the titles on 2007's catalog. I can hardly find stuff that wouldn't interest me, provided the material is up to my expectations, of course. 

There's some really cool stuff coming out for D&D. Can't wait!


----------



## Nyeshet (Nov 23, 2006)

Ravenloft - Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Greyhawk - Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
Forgotten Realms - Expedition to Undermountain

It seems each setting is getting its own 'Expedition' book (except, possibly, Ebberon, due to its young age as a setting). 

I wonder what other (pre-3e) settings might get an 'Expedition' book associated with them? 

If Ebberon was to also get one, I wonder what (very) local area would be used? It couldn't be 'Expedition to the Mournlands' - they are too vast for an Expedition book, at least as they currently seem to be designed. But perhaps there is a region within the Mournlands (or elsewhere) that is small enough in scope yet potentially deep enough in depth as to be useful for this type of project? I don't know Ebberon well enough to guess on this one . . . .


----------



## Dragonhelm (Nov 23, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> That would certainly be my preference. You can easily add levels to the adventure we created, so it is not outside the realm of possibility that you could play a Castle Greyhawk mega-adventure that included levels from "Expedition," "Greyhawk Ruins," and "Castle Zagyg."




Plus Dungeonland and The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror!  




> If you really hated yourself and your players, you could even throw in a few levels from WG7.




That was actually my introduction to Castle Greyhawk.  I know a lot of people don't like it, but I look upon it with fond memories.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 23, 2006)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> That's not how the publishing industry works, so I'm not sure who you're directing this "answer" to. I think many people who aren't Americans would be quite happy if WotC/publishers in general did _not_ state a price on books. (Now, with all that said, in many cases, stores do ignore the (inappropriate) listed price and instead sell for the non-inflated price. But this is hardly universal.)



How do stores ignore the Listed Price if they're paying percentage based on that price? I'm assuming they don't simply take less profit simply to help out their customers.

I don't see a Wizards Canada division, so it's entirely possible that Wizards simply sells to a distributor for X price per copy, and that distributor then sells them to US or Canadian stores as they see fit.



> Anyways, as I said - we've covered this already. Why is it so difficult for people to simply accept the already-explained situation? Stop. It.



Simply put, not everyone was involved in the discussion previously, and more importantly, not everyone accepts your information as true and correct. In addition, pronouncements from "on high" generally don't carry much weight on the internet, it's usually nice to quantify information rather than simply assuming folks will take your word for it.

Even in the other thread, it was never established who gets the "extra cut" from the miscalculation of the expenses for trading to Canada, except by Pronouncement.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 23, 2006)

Nyeshet said:
			
		

> Ravenloft - Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
> Greyhawk - Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
> Forgotten Realms - Expedition to Undermountain
> 
> ...




Expedition to WhiteHearth could be a VERY nice adventure, but I doubt it. There're plenty of ruins dotting the landscape, but XenDrik is full of them. None have a true "emotional resonance" like Greyhawk or Ravenloft.

(Also, no Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Spelljammer...)

I like Ravenloft a lot, but the series seems to come more to "Expedition to Buzzword" than any setting ties. 

I look forward to the Eberron stuff, Champion should be nice, not too much else is a Must Buy for me.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 23, 2006)

Mystara has enough classic locations to merit an Expedition. Keep on the Borderlands was the game's seminal introductory adventure for almost 10 years (squeaking out those of us who started games with T1 pretty quickly -- wasn't it included in one of the boxed sets for a while, in fact?). Although there's already been a Return to the Keep on the Borderlands, there's also been oodles of versions of I6 already, and that didn't prevent an Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. If Mystara only gets one Expedition, I vote that it be an Expedition to the Keep on the Borderlands.

(Other good choices would be the Isle of Dread and Castle Amber.)

And an Expedition to Thunder Rift could be a setting-in-a-book and very welcome for new DMs.


----------



## megamania (Nov 23, 2006)

This morning I swore I would cut down on my DnD spending....  then I find this.


Oye!  I need a third job from the looks of things.....


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 23, 2006)

I actually wouldn't mind seeing an Expedition to the Palace of the Silver Princess- taking the best parts of both the green module and the pulled from print orange module (which had quite a bit of differences from the other). While it's not as classic a module as either B2 or X2 for D&D, I think it is a pretty familiar sight, if only due to the controversy.

For kicks, WotC could produce a limited copy special cover for it.


----------



## Faraer (Nov 23, 2006)

My comment posted on the Candlekeep.com boards about _Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land_:







> This had better be executed _immaculately_ -- nothing at all like the sensationalistic promo copy.



And about _Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk_:







> It will be a lovingly and skillfully executed variation and expansion on WGR1 _Greyhawk Ruins_, TSR's second ersatz Castle Greyhawk written to make money off the ideas and glamour of Gary Gygax's great dungeon after he was kicked out of his company.





			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> If anything, the Expedition product ought to _help_ sales of "Castle Zagyg." WotC publishes (and sells) quantities at least an order of magnitude higher than all other companies in the business, so increased attention for the Castle ought to help Troll Lords far more than it will hurt them.



I hope so too and think it might. And I hope to read more your thoughts on all this one day.







			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> You can easily add levels to the adventure we created, so it is not outside the realm of possibility that you could play a Castle Greyhawk mega-adventure that included levels from "Expedition," "Greyhawk Ruins," and "Castle Zagyg."



Maybe yours could be used as Castle Dyvers?


----------



## RichGreen (Nov 23, 2006)

Hi,

Really excited about Expedition to Castle Greyhawk! If Erik's writing it, it'll be done properly!

Not sure about the 224 page drow book though. 

Cheers


Richard


----------



## Kishin (Nov 23, 2006)

I'll probably be burned at the stake for this, but at this point, I'm about x30 more likely to purchase a product with Erik Mona's name on it than I am one backed by EGG, especially if that product has even a faint Greyhawk twinge to it.

Also, 224 pages on the Drow? Can we shave about 100-150 pages off that book and redistribute them to better deserving books, like _Dragonmarked_ or something in the Environment series or...well, anything?

There's got to be a thousand pages of Drow material in the D&D catalogue, and thats not even counting novels.


----------



## Monkey King (Nov 23, 2006)

Nyeshet said:
			
		

> Ravenloft - Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
> Greyhawk - Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
> Forgotten Realms - Expedition to Undermountain
> 
> ...



Planescape - Expedition to the Demonweb Pits


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 23, 2006)

Kishin said:
			
		

> Also, 224 pages on the Drow? Can we shave about 100-150 pages off that book and redistribute them to better deserving books, like _Dragonmarked_ or something in the Environment series or...well, anything?




Ah, but you're neglecting to consider all the pages that need to be relegated to Drow-kin: Draegloth and half-draegloth, driders, etc., etc.


----------



## charlesatan (Nov 23, 2006)

Felon said:
			
		

> Is there a way to address psionic monsters that allows them to be useful to those who don't have the psionics handbooks? Can a pychic warrior or soulknife be presented as easily as a scout or warmage?




Soulknife yes. Psychic Warrior, in general, no, although a low-level one might be workable (it's gonna take up a lot of space though) the same way the Kalashtar's in Eberron had their psionic power ability reprinted as a chunk of text.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 23, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> This had better be executed immaculately -- nothing at all like the sensationalistic promo copy.



Why? If there's a WotC setting that lends itself to big, dramatic, even epic adventures, it's Faerun. Heck, do little adventures even happen there? They sure don't seem to in the modules or novels.

I think a three-part hardcover epic adventure series depicting the fall of Shadowdale, the breaking of Elminster's power and the possible rewriting of the laws of magic themselves is exactly the sort of setting most FR fans would like.

If they get to play an active part in all of this, instead of just watching bitchin' NPCs beat the snot out of each other, that's pretty immaculate as far as I suspect most would be concerned.


----------



## Lordgrae (Nov 23, 2006)

Ugh, I didn't care for MMIV's set up.  I bought it, and I'll buy V, but I'd prefer more MMIII style MMs.  

Wizards is missing out too.  If they released a all MM, and a seperate "advanced" reprinted MM, I'd buy *both!*


----------



## RodneyThompson (Nov 23, 2006)

IuztheEvil said:
			
		

> I know plenty Rodney.. Don't go getting "Cheeky" with me
> 
> Jason Bulmahn
> Tired Author
> Beware the "Tooth"




You...you bastard. You had to go and ruin my appetite on Thanksgiving.


----------



## heirodule (Nov 23, 2006)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> While I like the encounter format, I'd like it a heck of a lot better if all of the maps were available as scale-size downloads.




Yeah, the "map galleries" WOTC has been putting online really stink as to scale. Even the "map-a-week" versions have now been limited to 72dpi and you can't get all the maps from a book. 

Maybe this new subscription service for WOTC online will oferr hires map downloads.


----------



## Faraer (Nov 23, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Why? If there's a WotC setting that lends itself to big, dramatic, even epic adventures, it's Faerun. Heck, do little adventures even happen there? They sure don't seem to in the modules or novels.



The Realms has suffered 17 years of ill-conceived RSEs inflicted on it for short-term novel sales, but even so the lore (including published adventures and novels) is far more full of the small, local tales which suit it and which it was created for. So with a book that features yet another RSE, whose advertising perpetuates the foolish focus on Elminster and teases flash-bang destruction of the most-loved part of the Realms, the centre of Ed's own campaign, a place of so much history whose people have weathered oppressive governments and terrible strife, we can only hope -- optimistically because this is Eric Boyd -- that it will do it with the care and sensitivity the book-department RSEs have mostly lacked.







> I think a three-part hardcover epic adventure series depicting the fall of Shadowdale, the breaking of Elminster's power and the possible rewriting of the laws of magic themselves is exactly the sort of setting most FR fans would like.



Why would we like the destruction of what we love? This series has been met in large part with weary groans on the Candlekeep.com boards. But yes, it's better to treat these threads in adventure than novel form.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 23, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I think a three-part hardcover epic adventure series depicting the fall of Shadowdale, the breaking of Elminster's power and the possible rewriting of the laws of magic themselves is exactly the sort of setting most FR fans would like.




I'd amend that with "those of us that got tired of this type of adventure jumped ship long ago".

For the Drow book, I figure it'll have a writeup for more than just Drow, but I still want to see what's in it before buying it. I just can't imagine having 224 pages of drow material.


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## Arnwyn (Nov 23, 2006)

*Hijack!*

[sblock]







			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Simply put, not everyone was involved in the discussion previously, and more importantly, not everyone accepts your information as true and correct. In addition, pronouncements from "on high" generally don't carry much weight on the internet, it's usually nice to quantify information rather than simply assuming folks will take your word for it.



My question was rhetorical - I wasn't really expecting an answer (this is the internet after all, and I absolutely agree with your reasons). But in any case, I already referenced the other thread as well as the CBC News report (and should have even mentioned the extra detail they went into in the local papers). And while I do understand that "pronouncements" carry little weight - I don't particularly care. I'm not too worried about educating internet denizens (ripe with ignorance), and if they don't want to take a professional accountant's word on the matter, that's their problem, not mine.

Besides, not all information can be linked (which is something those who spend unhealthy amounts of time on the internet have a hard time dealing with).[/sblock]



			
				Faraer said:
			
		

> The Realms has suffered 17 years of ill-conceived RSEs inflicted on it for short-term novel sales, but even so the lore (including published adventures and novels) is far more full of the small, local tales which suit it and which it was created for. So with a book that features yet another RSE, whose advertising perpetuates the foolish focus on Elminster and teases flash-bang destruction of the most-loved part of the Realms, the centre of Ed's own campaign, a place of so much history whose people have weathered oppressive governments and terrible strife, we can only hope -- optimistically because this is Eric Boyd -- that it will do it with the care and sensitivity the book-department RSEs have mostly lacked.



Preach it, Faraer!



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I think a three-part hardcover epic adventure series depicting the fall of Shadowdale, the breaking of Elminster's power and the possible rewriting of the laws of magic themselves is exactly the sort of setting most FR fans would like.



It's exactly what we despise. (Novel readers, OTOH, might eat it up. It has long become clear, though, that FR game fans and FR novel fans are [mostly] mutually exclusive.)


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## Jason Bulmahn (Nov 23, 2006)

Moridin said:
			
		

> You...you bastard. You had to go and ruin my appetite on Thanksgiving.




Ha ha haaaa.. more turkey for me.

Jason Bulmahn
Managing Editor of Dragon
He of the many subtitles
"I just want to reach over and bite it off" -Rob Schwalb


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 23, 2006)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> I'm not too worried about educating internet denizens (ripe with ignorance), and if they don't want to take a professional accountant's word on the matter, that's their problem, not mine.



real nice. But even in that other thread, I don't see anything that indicates WotC gets the money, and in this you don't answer how the Canadian stores can discount if they're paying the higher price. I don't throw around my profession on the internet, since it doesn't really matter. Saying you're a professional accountant doesn't mean anything when you don't put information of use in the posts.




> It's exactly what we despise. (Novel readers, OTOH, might eat it up. It has long become clear, though, that FR game fans and FR novel fans are [mostly] mutually exclusive.)



I grew tired of it as a novel fan AND an RPG fan myself. I ditched FR for GH years ago, and now embrace Eberron. (And, somewhat fear some of the Eberron novels, they seem willing to involve "grand events" in each one, but luckily they're all localized and don't affect the world at large.)

From an RPG standpoint, it was irritating to have adventures where the PC's "watched" the event with no input, but from Novel or RPG standpoint, it's irritating to have to buy every book to even know what's happening. DL is even worse with it, and the latest DL novels drove me away forever. Not only do they change constantly, but the quality is horrid IMO.


----------



## Arnwyn (Nov 23, 2006)

[sblock]







			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> real nice. But even in that other thread, I don't see anything that indicates WotC gets the money, and in this you don't answer how the Canadian stores can discount if they're paying the higher price. I don't throw around my profession on the internet, since it doesn't really matter. Saying you're a professional accountant doesn't mean anything when you don't put information of use in the posts.



Thanks - it was nice. I did put information of use - I think what you mean is "detail that (you) want to see". But I'm not going to bother going into that - my original response was simply a nice little aside to simply point out that the "ask your government" comment isn't really correct. People can "refute" if they want to (though obviously no one has), but it doesn't really matter. *shrug*

As for some (basic) answers (I'm not doing the research again):
"I don't see anything that indicates WotC gets the money": If WotC is considered the publisher, then they do. My local paper (McNally is from here) went into some of the details at the time. I said as much in the old post.

How Cdn stores can discount: Beats me, but some do. As I alluded to in the old post, hardcovers are discounted more often than softcovers; also, certain stores discount certain books. For example, the larger book retailers will discount hardcover novels fairly often, but never D&D books. Conversely, the LGSs in my area (though from posts at ENWorld, not others) give us a much better rate than what's listed on the D&D book. It is likely due to the booksellers purchasing at a moment in time in which the exchange rate in Canada is fairly high, and purchasing at the US price - thus resulting in a lower cost for the booksellers than what the printed Cdn price says. These savings are then passed on to consumers in Canada (for whatever reason - that business decision I'm not privy to). In other words, Cdn retailers aren't (necessarily) purchasing at the higher (listed book) price.[/sblock] 


> I grew tired of it as a novel fan AND an RPG fan myself. I ditched FR for GH years ago, and now embrace Eberron. (And, somewhat fear some of the Eberron novels, they seem willing to involve "grand events" in each one, but luckily they're all localized and don't affect the world at large.)



Yeah, I don't blame you. Good to hear about Eberron - hopefully there were some 'lessons learned' when it comes to novels in that setting.



> From an RPG standpoint, it was irritating to have adventures where the PC's "watched" the event with no input, but from Novel or RPG standpoint, it's irritating to have to buy every book to even know what's happening. DL is even worse with it, and the latest DL novels drove me away forever. Not only do they change constantly, but the quality is horrid IMO.



I am totally with you there. I suspect that the novel reading population doesn't really care about "what's happening", though. They just see "Forgotten Realms" and buy it because they've liked other "Forgotten Realms" books. What we consider to be lame 'RSEs' might be exciting to the casual buyer. (Just a suspicion, though. I do know many complete non-gamers who buy FR novels just like others buy Tom Clancy novels - they aren't even aware that FR is some sort of game world. Whether that's representative or not is beyond me...)


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## Eela6 (Nov 23, 2006)

I'd like to point out that unlike FR novels, Eberron novels are all non-canon. You can put them in your game if you want, but there's no metaplot - Eberron stays at 998 YK.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 23, 2006)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> "I don't see anything that indicates WotC gets the money": If WotC is considered the publisher, then they do. My local paper (McNally is from here) went into some of the details at the time. I said as much in the old post.



I think the issue isn't who the publisher is, but who the distributor is to Canada. If a publisher ships directly to a Canadian distributor (or is their own) then the percentage is based on Canadian price. If they instead ship to a US distributor that then ships to Canada & the US, the price is most likely based on % of US price. Either way contracts are negotiated and I doubt even a Canadian distributor would negotiate based on the higher Canadian price. It may be that the Canadian corporate side of things is doing the gouging, or not. Most such reports are based on larger booksellers than WotC, most of which probably run their own Canadian subsidiaries.



> Yeah, I don't blame you. Good to hear about Eberron - hopefully there were some 'lessons learned' when it comes to novels in that setting.



I think the main presentation problem with Eberron is that folks think the "different" elements are more pervasive than they are. Warforged aren't common, the Lightning Rail only connects a handful of major cities, Air Ships are expensive and uncommon. (Heck, FR has airships anyway.) This is perpetuated by Dungeon and the novel staff, and WotC seems to forget their own advice in highlighting what's different rather than what's the same.

(Heck, I used Warforged in a Ravenloft game, they were Soulforged, it was the custom of Nova Vaasa or Falkovnia, I forget which, for fallen warriors to give themselves over to be eternal guardians. Like Karrnathi Skeletons.)


----------



## Troll Wizard (Nov 23, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think the issue isn't who the publisher is, but who the distributor is to Canada. If a publisher ships directly to a Canadian distributor (or is their own) then the percentage is based on Canadian price. If they instead ship to a US distributor that then ships to Canada & the US, the price is most likely based on % of US price. Either way contracts are negotiated and I doubt even a Canadian distributor would negotiate based on the higher Canadian price. It may be that the Canadian corporate side of things is doing the gouging, or not. Most such reports are based on larger booksellers than WotC, most of which probably run their own Canadian subsidiaries.




You are pretty much spot on that the distributors (and the larger retail chains) are the ones that "assist" WOTC in setting the MSRP of their products.  Based on past comments by WOTC and even third party publishers we know:

1. Lords of Madness name change
2. D20 Modern, down to 4 softcovers, WOTC had wanted 2 hardcovers, but the distributors would not stock it.  (pretty much dead now IMO)
3. Distributor preference for hardcover books over softcover
4. Distributor preference for $5 price increments ($24.99, 29.99, 34.99)
5. Preference for less SKUs, i.e. why WOTC minis are so popular with the distributors and retailers, and the fast dollar turn overs helps

I am sure that the Canadian distributors ask for (or perhaps demand) a bump in the MSRP, in order to cover the exchange rate difference.  Remember the exchange does vary and since the books are often completed months in advance and the distributors have to place their orders at a minimum 2-3 months in advance, they want to cover their investment in case of a sudden plunge in the canadian dollar.


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## Knightfall (Nov 24, 2006)

rycanada said:
			
		

> More like QF...WTF?  CAD's trading against USD @ 0.875 - sounds like Wizards is just out of touch with the exchange rate.



Well, I didn't know it was that close. What the hell?


----------



## Knightfall (Nov 24, 2006)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> No news on Dungeonscape?



Dungeonscape comes out in February.


----------



## Nyeshet (Nov 24, 2006)

Monkey King said:
			
		

> Planescape - Expedition to the Demonweb Pits



But aren't the Demonweb Pits part of the Faerun altered cosmology instead of the former Planescape cosmology? That would suggest it to be a planar FR expedition book instead of a Planescape expedition book. Of course, it could also be said to be a planar expedition book in general, I suppose . . .


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## Swordsage (Nov 24, 2006)

Eela6 said:
			
		

> I'd like to point out that unlike FR novels, Eberron novels are all non-canon. You can put them in your game if you want, but there's no metaplot - Eberron stays at 998 YK.




For now. Wait for the "Drizzt of Eberron" to appear and tha almighty clamour for stats that will ensue. Eberron will go the way of FR - it's inevitable.

The Swordsage


----------



## Harker Wade (Nov 24, 2006)

*New Expeditions to...*

Since all the ols settings are getting a book I would surely love to see ones for Spelljammer and Darksun.

Spelljammer - Expedition to Bral, to the Spelljammer, to Space Hamsters

Darksun - Expedition to ....  I only really remember the names of some of the sorcerer-kings and a few of the cities... hmmm


----------



## Pants (Nov 24, 2006)

Nyeshet said:
			
		

> But aren't the Demonweb Pits part of the Faerun altered cosmology instead of the former Planescape cosmology? That would suggest it to be a planar FR expedition book instead of a Planescape expedition book. Of course, it could also be said to be a planar expedition book in general, I suppose . . .



The Demonweb Pits are a layer of the Abyss (in PS).


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 24, 2006)

Nyeshet said:
			
		

> But aren't the Demonweb Pits part of the Faerun altered cosmology instead of the former Planescape cosmology? That would suggest it to be a planar FR expedition book instead of a Planescape expedition book. Of course, it could also be said to be a planar expedition book in general, I suppose . . .




They predate FR by quite a bit, and the Demonweb pits have always been some sort of level of the Abyss.


----------



## Nyeshet (Nov 24, 2006)

Pants said:
			
		

> The Demonweb Pits are a layer of the Abyss (in PS).



Ahh, I see. I wonder, though, how the writers of the book will deal with the discrepancies in cosmologies. Will they treat it as a 'typical' Abyss planar adventure (if such could ever be considered 'typical') and have a half page describing the differences if it were occurring in the FR cosmology, or will it presume the latter and have descriptions on how to use it in a more generic setting? Somehow I'm guessing the former rather than the latter. It would be interesting to see where they think it should be placed it it were played in ebberon, however.


----------



## Faraer (Nov 24, 2006)

It needn't be relevant to the adventure whether the Demonweb its considered its own plane or part of the Abyss. Incidentally I think, and Ed Greenwood agrees, that the AD&D and new Realms 'cosmologies' are better seen as two mortal interpretations of the planes than as two actual different planar structures.







			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> They predate FR by quite a bit, and the Demonweb pits have always been some sort of level of the Abyss.



No, the Realms is about ten years older.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 24, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> No, the Realms is about ten years older.





Publishing wise, Queen of the Demonweb Pits is 1980, Bloodstone (FR) is 1985 and boxed set 87, at least according to Wiki. Either may have existed before then, but no way to give exact dates.


----------



## Erik Mona (Nov 24, 2006)

I think he's referring to the somewhat shaky idea that since Ed imagined a few of the characters from the Forgotten Realms as a child, the whole setting as a creative enterprise predates first edition D&D.

I'm not sure I buy it, but it's an argument I've seen posited more than a few times online.

--Erik


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 24, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I think he's referring to the somewhat shaky idea that since Ed imagined a few of the characters from the Forgotten Realms as a child, the whole setting as a creative enterprise predates first edition D&D.
> 
> I'm not sure I buy it, but it's an argument I've seen posited more than a few times online.
> 
> --Erik



Right, well I know FR existed before being published and such, in Dragon also. I can't see how that would have any influence on the Demonweb Pits though...

I mean, does it come down to age of the authors?


----------



## Felon (Nov 24, 2006)

Troll Wizard said:
			
		

> You are pretty much spot on that the distributors (and the larger retail chains) are the ones that "assist" WOTC in setting the MSRP of their products.




Well, the retailers are WotC's customers, after all. I suppose they should listen to them.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Nov 24, 2006)

Yeah, "Ed was messing about with what would become the Forgotten Realms in the late Sixties" is not equal to "Ed laid out everything about the world and its cosmology and just everything before D&D was even a twinkle in Gygax's eye".

I seriously doubt that the Demonweb Pits, specifically, existed before the Forgotten Realms became a game setting.


----------



## Faraer (Nov 24, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Right, well I know FR existed before being published and such, in Dragon also. I can't see how that would have any influence on the Demonweb Pits though...



I'm sure it didn't, since Gary didn't know about the Realms till 1979 at the earliest. You said the Demonweb Pits predated the Realms; they don't.







			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I think he's referring to the somewhat shaky idea that since Ed imagined a few of the characters from the Forgotten Realms as a child, the whole setting as a creative enterprise predates first edition D&D.



Not the whole setting, but most of the critical elements were in place by 1974; far more than a few characters.


----------



## Erik Mona (Nov 24, 2006)

Mmmm hmmm.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 24, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> The Realms has suffered 17 years of ill-conceived RSEs inflicted on it for short-term novel sales, but even so the lore (including published adventures and novels) is far more full of the small, local tales which suit it and which it was created for.



Please define "RSE" for those of us who don't have their Elminster Crime Fighter Club decoder rings with us.



> Why would we like the destruction of what we love?



Or, alternately, why wouldn't struggling to save what you view as the "heart" of the Realms elevate this adventure above "oh, we can go rescue that town we never heard of and save the NPCs we don't care about?"

Big trilogies of hardcover adventures should aspire to be the Lord of the Rings, not The Village of Hommlet.



> This series has been met in large part with weary groans on the Candlekeep.com boards.



Any time a love of canon supercedes a campaign setting being the setting for heroic adventure, it's time to start smashing away at canon, IMO.

_Threatening_ Shadowdale (which will be undone by the end of the trilogy, I'm confident) is a lot different from, say, the Greyhawk Wars or any of the insanity inflicted on Krynn or even all of Toril's gods smacking the crap out of each other while PCs stood around and watched.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Nov 24, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Any time a love of canon supercedes a campaign setting being the setting for heroic adventure, it's time to start smashing away at canon, IMO.




Truer words on this topic have ne'er been uttered.


----------



## Olaf the Stout (Nov 24, 2006)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Truer words on this topic have ne'er been uttered.




And are you going to have a say in what is done about it Ari?  You seem to be on the cover of every second book WotC releases these days!    

Olaf the Stout


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## Faraer (Nov 24, 2006)

RSE is Realms-Shattering or -Shaking Event (which is the way this trilogy is being sold).







			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Or, alternately, why wouldn't struggling to save what you view as the "heart" of the Realms elevate this adventure above "oh, we can go rescue that town we never heard of and save the NPCs we don't care about?"



Potentially it could, and the fact that a lot's conceptually at stake (not necessarily for particular PC groups, who all care most about different things) is what makes it a delicate and difficult project, because the opportunity only plausibly comes once.







> Big trilogies of hardcover adventures should aspire to be the Lord of the Rings, not The Village of Hommlet.



You can't have _The Lord of the Rings_ -- the climax of an epoch, fruition of many plot threads -- annually.







> Any time a love of canon supercedes a campaign setting being the setting for heroic adventure, it's time to start smashing away at canon, IMO.



The problem is _too much_ canon where many of us don't want it, in the ongoing timeline which makes DMing harder if you don't follow it. That said, Eric has made hints about flexible placement which increase my optimism.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 24, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> You can't have _The Lord of the Rings_ -- the climax of an epoch, fruition of many plot threads -- annually.



In the last year, there's been orcs on the march -- which has been going on since the 3E FRCS hit the streets -- and some dragons spazzed out. Neither were the Lord of the Rings.



> The problem is _too much_ canon where many of us don't want it, in the ongoing timeline which makes DMing harder if you don't follow it.



And I can respect that. I'm one of the people who found the Old World of Darkness to be greatly burdened by its advancing timeline.

That said, WotC has been a lot better about this stuff than TSR. No one's game has been really impacted if they weren't interested in, say, dragons spazzing out, for instance.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Nov 24, 2006)

Olaf the Stout said:
			
		

> And are you going to have a say in what is done about it Ari?  You seem to be on the cover of every second book WotC releases these days!
> 
> Olaf the Stout




Nah, not every other. Maybe every fourth or fifth or so. I just happen to have a lot of stuff releasing in clumps. 

Anyway, ask me again when my name's on the cover of _every_ book.


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## Faraer (Nov 24, 2006)

_Lord of the Rings_ was your comparison! I think Wizards is handling it smarter in many ways, and I expect things to improve with the merging of the game and book teams. Still, more one-shot things have been blown in WotC's two timeline years (bodily return of Netherese and Sammaster etc. etc., Rage of Dragons, destruction of Elminster's Tower, revival of Cormanthor) than is wise for the long-term health of the setting, plausible, or sustainable. They know these arguments and decide to keep with the bang bang, though most of the fiction is relatively small-scale.

Back to these modules. The promo copy is sensational and exploitative, which promo copy often is. It seems to be getting people's attention, for whatever reasons. I suspect they're not the use of publishing resources I'd prefer. I'm sure they'll be well-produced, interesting, lore-consistent and they'll probably be good scenarios overall. We'll wait and see.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 24, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> _Lord of the Rings_ was your comparison!



Yes, and I don't think they've DONE Lord of the Rings in 3E up until now.



> Back to these modules. The promo copy is sensational and exploitative



"Exploitive?" Did someone paint a naughty portrait of a teenage Shadowdale girl?


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## Taren Nighteyes (Nov 24, 2006)

*Ummmm......*



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> "Exploitive?" Did someone paint a naughty portrait of a teenage Shadowdale girl?





Link please?????    


Taren Nighteyes


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## theemrys (Nov 24, 2006)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Truer words on this topic have ne'er been uttered.



It was all those books that "changed the world" that drove me away from FR years ago.  I loved Birthright while it was alive... used it more as a setting than the player's running regents.  They had novels which were great, but were able to contain them to the history of the land, or minor side events.  

Now I'm big on Kalamar.  It's a rich setting, quite a few awesome supplements, but a BIG TIME focus on the player's being the heroes of the land (assuming that's their style... anti-heroes would work too...).  No novels but a rich history of the setting and LOTS of room for grand adventure and plenty of material for DMs and Player's to work with.   The campaign book is a bit dry if you just get that and start reading it, but once you get more into the setting (especially the Player's Guide), going back to the campaign book is much better. 
Beside, you got to love a setting that did dark elves (drow) in a way that doesn't suck!


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## BadMojo (Nov 24, 2006)

theemrys said:
			
		

> Beside, you got to love a setting that did dark elves (drow) in a way that doesn't suck!




Do you mean Eberron?  

Anyway, as a longtime FR fan (and more recent Eberron fan) I think the new trilogy of adventures sounds pretty cool.

My Realms lore might be a bit off, but it seems like the last HUGE Realms event was the Time of Troubles.

PCs playing in Rashemen or Damara may have little to no awareness of the elves returning to Cormanthyr.  People in Sembia or Amn most likely weren't effected by the return of the Shadovar and all the Phaerimm stuff.

Point being, you could easily run a campaign away from the "trouble spots" and almost completely ignore past RSE's (with the exception of the Time of Troubles).

Now, the question is: will the new Weave adventures let the PCs do something meaningful or just stand around and watch Important NPCs do Important Things (like the 2E Time of Troubles adventures).  That's just a question of good or bad adventure design.  Luckily, there seems to be a talented bunch working on the Cormyr and Shadowdale.


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## theemrys (Nov 24, 2006)

BadMojo said:
			
		

> Do you mean Eberron?




NOpe...   That being said, I don't have a lot of experience with Eberron.  What little I know does sound a bit promising for Drow... at least they have broken some of the stereotypes. 

I will be the first to admit that the Kalamar take on Drow (known as Shadow Elves) is different, but still "Official D&D" so does not break any of the "canon".  That being said, it's well adapted for a setting that doens't have racial pantheons but instead just one (large) panthon and each race has they're on interpretation.  The book is a great read and great history.

As a DM I've rarely (if ever) used drow in a game since I ran the G, D, and Q series way back when.  I was big on the realms in the "early years" of it, but bailed after too many books derailed my game.  I'm just not a big fan of settings where the NPCs tend to overshadow the PCs.  I'm not bashing it or "hate" it, but just not my preference.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 24, 2006)

BadMojo said:
			
		

> Anyway, as a longtime FR fan (and more recent Eberron fan) I think the new trilogy of adventures sounds pretty cool.
> 
> My Realms lore might be a bit off, but it seems like the last HUGE Realms event was the Time of Troubles.
> 
> ...



My thoughts exactly.

And, frankly, I think anyone betting that Elminster is going to eat it in this trilogy or that Shadowdale won't be on the road to recovery by the time the third adventure wraps up better get some pretty favorable odds, because they're likely to lose their shirt, IMO.



> Now, the question is: will the new Weave adventures let the PCs do something meaningful or just stand around and watch Important NPCs do Important Things (like the 2E Time of Troubles adventures).  That's just a question of good or bad adventure design.  Luckily, there seems to be a talented bunch working on the Cormyr and Shadowdale.



Yeah, the Stand Around Watching NPCs adventures are easily the worst. (That's the only thing that hurts the otherwise fantastic 1E adventure Cult of the Reptile God, for instance, even if it's only one moment at the end.) At the levels characters are likely to be by the end of the trilogy, I sure hope they'll be considered capable of doing what's necessary.


----------



## BadMojo (Nov 24, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> And, frankly, I think anyone betting that Elminster is going to eat it in this trilogy or that Shadowdale won't be on the road to recovery by the time the third adventure wraps up better get some pretty favorable odds, because they're likely to lose their shirt, IMO.




I doubt Elminster will be eliminated too.  Still, I'd hope that the ranks of the Chosen of Mystra would get thinned out a *bit*.  There really are quite a few of them.

I certainly wouldn't want the designers to kill off every high level good-aligned NPC in the setting, but it would be nice to thin the ranks a bit to allow PCs to easily get, uh, promoted.

I'm also kind of jazzed since Shar has always been one of my favorite FR deities.


----------



## WildWeasel (Nov 25, 2006)

Swordsage said:
			
		

> For now. Wait for the "Drizzt of Eberron" to appear and tha almighty clamour for stats that will ensue. Eberron will go the way of FR - it's inevitable.




How can we argue with logic like that.


----------



## Swordsage (Nov 26, 2006)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> How can we argue with logic like that.




You don't have to argue with it. Just look at most every campaign setting ever published under the D&D umbrella (and I'm guessing that others under different gaming systems also went the same way) - as soon as the original world creator's input became diluted by other designers/writers, the world was seen to be "not as good". Unless Keith Baker has input into every single creative decision re Eberron, its bound to diverge from his original concept and thoughts on a multitude of aspects. Come back to this thread in 10 years and see what kind of an argument you can put up. That's why people pine for Gygax re Greyhawk.

The Swordsage


----------



## Swordsage (Nov 26, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Mmmm hmmm.




Ah, c'mon Erik. You're not really saying that Gygax had a vision for Greyhawk and had all its details, history and bits and pieces sorted out before it was published, are you?! Gygax is the most ad-hoc designer ever. And given that the Gs & Ds were tournament adventures, there is no way that Gygax had a grand plan for Lolth, the drow or just about anything. Remember, the comment was about the Realms predating the Demonweb Pits, not necessarily Greyhawk. I'd believe the 'grand plan' thing more so for Greenwood, who's a world builder first and foremost. World building for Gygax was incidental.

The Swordsage


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 26, 2006)

Swordsage said:
			
		

> Ah, c'mon Erik. You're not really saying that Gygax had a vision for Greyhawk and had all its details, history and bits and pieces sorted out before it was published, are you?! Gygax is the most ad-hoc designer ever. And given that the Gs & Ds were tournament adventures, there is no way that Gygax had a grand plan for Lolth, the drow or just about anything. Remember, the comment was about the Realms predating the Demonweb Pits, not necessarily Greyhawk. I'd believe the 'grand plan' thing more so for Greenwood, who's a world builder first and foremost. World building for Gygax was incidental.
> 
> The Swordsage




Well, the comment was about assigning Demonweb Pits to FR, which it obviously isn't because the publication of Queen predates the publication of FR.

I took Erik's "mmhmm" as "see, toldja Voce", but that's just me. I'm sure GH predated the first time it was printed as a Greyhawk product, but in a book trade, I generally consider publication to be when the product exists in the grand timeline of which products tie togethor.


----------



## Rassilon (Nov 26, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> And, frankly, I think anyone betting that Elminster is going to eat it in this trilogy or that Shadowdale won't be on the road to recovery by the time the third adventure wraps up better get some pretty favorable odds, because they're likely to lose their shirt, IMO.




Oh no. I'll be DMing. I can pretty much guarantee that Elminster is going to "eat it".


Rassilon.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 27, 2006)

Swordsage said:
			
		

> And given that the Gs & Ds were tournament adventures, there is no way that Gygax had a grand plan for Lolth, the drow or just about anything.



Nothing about the nature of tournament modules suggests anything of the sort.


----------



## Swordsage (Nov 27, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Nothing about the nature of tournament modules suggests anything of the sort.




Riiiiight. So the fact that they were created for tourneys months, likely years, apart makes you think that Gygax had an over-arching plan for Lolth and the drow in GH. That theory doesn't gel with the reality of a DM style of furiously writing dungeon levels one step ahead of his players. In all the myriad bits of information written on or about GH through the decades, I've never yet seen the statement made that the G & D series were taken out of Gary's own GH campaign. If they weren't, then it's clear that there was never any unifying vision or plan regarding their place in the setting. Like all the tournament modules, they were shoehorned into the setting after they were produced and left for individual DMs to incorporate and provide background info. GH was never anything but a skeleton of a campaign setting anyway - in comparison to FR, that is.

The Swordsage


----------



## Faraer (Nov 27, 2006)

We know a good deal about the development of various D&D and Greyhawk elements, and almost always Gary would come up with things as needed, whether for his campaign or for tournaments or publication. That's a fine method of worldbuilding.

History of publication is one thing, history of creation and ideas is another. I don't know what Erik meant by his 'Mmmm hmmm.' If he has reason to doubt the known genesis of the Realms, as mentioned among other places in his own magazine, he should tell us.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 27, 2006)

Swordsage said:
			
		

> Riiiiight. So the fact that they were created for tourneys months, likely years, apart makes you think that Gygax had an over-arching plan for Lolth and the drow in GH.



I guess you weren't playing when these modules were released. EVERYTHING came out months and years apart, even if it had already been used in his game or in a tournament. Good lord, the Temple of Elemental Evil came out YEARS after the Village of Hommlett; we were all climbing the walls waiting for "T2" to come out, for instance.



> That theory doesn't gel with the reality of a DM style of furiously writing dungeon levels one step ahead of his players. In all the myriad bits of information written on or about GH through the decades, I've never yet seen the statement made that the G & D series were taken out of Gary's own GH campaign. If they weren't, then it's clear that there was never any unifying vision or plan regarding their place in the setting.



The 1E Monster Manual serves as a pretty big hint in that regard, actually.



> Like all the tournament modules, they were shoehorned into the setting after they were produced and left for individual DMs to incorporate and provide background info.



You seriously are putting way too much weight on "all tournament modules," as though they were all created under the same circumstances under some sort of strict guidelines.


----------



## Brakkart (Nov 27, 2006)

Rassilon said:
			
		

> Oh no. I'll be DMing. I can pretty much guarantee that Elminster is going to "eat it".
> 
> 
> Rassilon.




Ahh not me. I'll likely run this trilogy too cos it sounds really cool, and I'll see if theres a way to toss in Sons of Grumsh and a few sites from Mysteries of the Moonsea as well. I like Elminster though, he and Khelben are the only Chosen I'm any good at roleplaying as a DM, and ol Khelben is gone now (circa 1374DR). Just cos El's tower is in ruins, doesn't mean El was in it at the time (and in fact considering how powerful Elminster is, is pretty certain that he wasn't).

As for the earlier comment about the Realms suffering years of "ill-conceived RSE's", I add that I'm a huge fan of the Realms, I don't run campaigns in any other world, I buy all the rpg books and most of the novels and I LOVE RSE's. They advance the timeline, providing for a dymanic and constantly evolving and changing world. That to me is one of the Realms greatest strengths. I would like to see more support in sourcebooks for the events that occur in the novels though, that is my only gripe about them.

I don't love the Realms for small stories, its a big world, with big characters and big things happen. The idea of epic characters doing nothing is to my mind absurd. Characters of epic power change the world by their very presence, and so they should. The Realms as published may bear little relation to Greenwoods original design for the world, but then I rate Greenwood as a great writer when it comes to writing sourcebooks, and a frankly terrible writer of stories anyway. I wouldn't want to play in Greenwoods version of the Realms, but I always have a dozen ideas for campaigns set in the TSR/WotC Realms kicking around in my head.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 27, 2006)

Swordsage said:
			
		

> Riiiiight. So the fact that they were created for tourneys months, likely years, apart makes you think that Gygax had an over-arching plan for Lolth and the drow in GH. That theory doesn't gel with the reality of a DM style of furiously writing dungeon levels one step ahead of his players. In all the myriad bits of information written on or about GH through the decades, I've never yet seen the statement made that the G & D series were taken out of Gary's own GH campaign. If they weren't, then it's clear that there was never any unifying vision or plan regarding their place in the setting. Like all the tournament modules, they were shoehorned into the setting after they were produced and left for individual DMs to incorporate and provide background info. GH was never anything but a skeleton of a campaign setting anyway - in comparison to FR, that is.
> 
> The Swordsage





I'm just unclear on one point. What exactly are you debating? I mean, you're attacking Gygax on many levels, but are you hoping to prove that the Demonweb Pits were indeed originally crafted as part of FR? I couldn't care less when Greenwood dreamed up this country or that NPC, what does that have to do with a module that was published years before he was part of the company?

Maybe the Demonweb Pits were not imagined until 2 minutes before the module was written, that still leaves years before Greenwood's influence at TSR, doesn't it?

I consider books to be created when they're published, the FR may have existed in some fashion before that but it's meaningless to the discussion of whether the Demonweb Pits, Drow, or Lolth/ Lloth are part of the FR cosmos first.


----------



## Faraer (Nov 27, 2006)

No one suggested they were.


----------



## Swordsage (Nov 27, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I'm just unclear on one point. What exactly are you debating? I mean, you're attacking Gygax on many levels, but are you hoping to prove that the Demonweb Pits were indeed originally crafted as part of FR? I couldn't care less when Greenwood dreamed up this country or that NPC, what does that have to do with a module that was published years before he was part of the company?
> 
> Maybe the Demonweb Pits were not imagined until 2 minutes before the module was written, that still leaves years before Greenwood's influence at TSR, doesn't it?
> 
> I consider books to be created when they're published, the FR may have existed in some fashion before that but it's meaningless to the discussion of whether the Demonweb Pits, Drow, or Lolth/ Lloth are part of the FR cosmos first.




The creation of the "Demonweb Pits" (whose substance owe just as much to Dave Sutherland as they do to Gary Gygax, if not more) was stated to have occurred before the creation of the Realms. Faraer commented that this was not so if discussing the Realms as a campaign setting. The Realms existed as Ed's home campaign from the inception of D&D gaming, and existed for years before that as a setting for Ed's fantasy writings. However, in terms of published products under the TSR banner, the Demonweb Pits certainly predated FR. That's what the discussion is about. It seems clear however that Ed Greenwood swiftly incorporated drow and Lolth in his campaign as soon as the G, D & eventually Q modules were released as they featured quite seamlessly in the 1987 boxed set that launched FR.

The Swordsage


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 27, 2006)

Swordsage said:
			
		

> The creation of the "Demonweb Pits" (whose substance owe just as much to Dave Sutherland as they do to Gary Gygax, if not more) was stated to have occurred before the creation of the Realms. Faraer commented that this was not so if discussing the Realms as a campaign setting.



Actually, there was no qualifier on it, I said Demonweb Pits predated FR, he said it didn't. If he'd said "though FR had no influence on the Demonweb Pits, the actual campaign was created long before it was published" Erik Mona wouldn't have had to clarify the matter at all, and this whole discussion wouldn't have taken place.

In addition, you're the one to bring up Gygax, so I don't see how that affects whether Expedition to Demonweb Pits is FR or not.


> The Realms existed as Ed's home campaign from the inception of D&D gaming, and existed for years before that as a setting for Ed's fantasy writings. However, in terms of published products under the TSR banner, the Demonweb Pits certainly predated FR. That's what the discussion is about. It seems clear however that Ed Greenwood swiftly incorporated drow and Lolth in his campaign as soon as the G, D & eventually Q modules were released as they featured quite seamlessly in the 1987 boxed set that launched FR.
> 
> The Swordsage




While his input was central, it's also worth noting that FR did have other input during it's publishing career. What's "obvious" in the boxed set doesn't mean it was automatically part of anything before then.


Either way, it's obvious that the "Demonweb Pits" long predate the "Demonweb Pits In FR", so I'm still not sure what the discussion is about.


----------



## Swordsage (Nov 27, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I guess you weren't playing when these modules were released. EVERYTHING came out months and years apart, even if it had already been used in his game or in a tournament. Good lord, the Temple of Elemental Evil came out YEARS after the Village of Hommlett; we were all climbing the walls waiting for "T2" to come out, for instance.




I guess I was actually, to answer the slightly condescending connotations of your comment. If EVERYTHING came out months and years apart it may suggest one of a couple of things. One: Gygax was a lazy so-and-so who couldn't get his act together to get stuff in publishable form. Two: Gygax had too much on his plate but being a shocking delegator and not very 'collegiate' in his approach to D&D, couldn't churn out the products required. Or Three: He had no overrall idea or view of the many and disparate elements of his campaign world and was reactive rather than proactive regarding product releases.

Of the three, I lean more to the the last. YMMV. We need a tournament module for Origins. Hey, I've got a great idea for using giants. Hey, great stuff Gary. We should publish this for the wider gaming community and make some $$$. Hey, great idea.

That scenario hardly points to Gygax having an over-arching, world-building view and attitude to the various (wonderful) game elements that came out of these tournament modules. He just made stuff up as needed - and most of it was awesome to be fair to the man - but it's not like he then sat down and mapped out the genesis of drow in GH, how they interacted with the Suel whose borders they lived underneath etc. etc. That's what I'm talking about.




			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> The 1E Monster Manual serves as a pretty big hint in that regard, actually.




The 1E Monster Manual gives us hints regarding the G & D series and their 'place' in the GH firmament? Umm, where? The drow aren't even in the 1E MM.




			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> You seriously are putting way too much weight on "all tournament modules," as though they were all created under the same circumstances under some sort of strict guidelines.




Yeah, maybe. But I've never read or heard anything that says otherwise. They were created for tourneys. That's a given. The question is whether in doing so Gygax was just coming up with stuff for tourney play, or whether he was taking stuff out of his own campaign and using these elements to create tourney adventures. The first sounds a lot more credible.

The Swordsage


----------



## Swordsage (Nov 27, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Either way, it's obvious that the "Demonweb Pits" long predate the "Demonweb Pits In FR", so I'm still not sure what the discussion is about.




Possibly. But think on this. If I'm DM-ing my homebrew world of "Swordsagia" and go and buy D1-2 Descent into the Depths when it is first released and instantly realise what a great concept drow are and add them into "Swordsagia" straight away, does drow presence in the GH world "long predate" drow presence in Swordsagia if my campaign setting is subsequently purchased and released by WotC 20 years later? No, didn't think so. Ed Greenwood incorporated most everything that Gygax came up with into his campaign setting. And he did it as these new concepts were released into the wider gaming community, just like we all did. So likely a short time after D1-2, drow appeared in the Realms. Similarly, the Demonweb Pits as a home to Lolth also was likely incorporated into the Realms soon after the release of Q1. It might not have been the same in every detail, but I'd be willing to bet it was called "the Demonweb Pits".

But yes, I agree that this discussion has become a convoluted one. To simplify what I'm saying I'll break it down into two statements:
1. If we are talking about who first featured a concept in published products then yes, the Demonweb Pits in GH 'long predated' the Realms.
2. If we are talking about incorporating elements of Gary's work into homebrew settings, then it is likely that the Demonweb Pits as a place where Lolth hung her hat existed in the Realms shortly after the release of Q1.

The Swordsage


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Nov 27, 2006)

Hell, people, if we're arguing about the timeline of published D&D settings, *Dragonlance* predates the publication of the Forgotten Realms as a setting proper, if not Ed's original run of articles in _Dragon Magazine_.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 28, 2006)

Swordsage said:
			
		

> Possibly. But think on this. If I'm DM-ing my homebrew world of "Swordsagia" and go and buy D1-2 Descent into the Depths when it is first released and instantly realise what a great concept drow are and add them into "Swordsagia" straight away, does drow presence in the GH world "long predate" drow presence in Swordsagia if my campaign setting is subsequently purchased and released by WotC 20 years later?



The subject is, would that mean 20 years later than you invented Drow?



> No, didn't think so. Ed Greenwood incorporated most everything that Gygax came up with into his campaign setting. And he did it as these new concepts were released into the wider gaming community, just like we all did. So likely a short time after D1-2, drow appeared in the Realms. Similarly, the Demonweb Pits as a home to Lolth also was likely incorporated into the Realms soon after the release of Q1. It might not have been the same in every detail, but I'd be willing to bet it was called "the Demonweb Pits".
> 
> But yes, I agree that this discussion has become a convoluted one. To simplify what I'm saying I'll break it down into two statements:
> 1. If we are talking about who first featured a concept in published products then yes, the Demonweb Pits in GH 'long predated' the Realms.
> ...




The question was;
"But aren't the Demonweb Pits part of the Faerun altered cosmology instead of the former Planescape cosmology? That would suggest it to be a planar FR expedition book instead of a Planescape expedition book. Of course, it could also be said to be a planar expedition book in general, I suppose . . ."

Obviously Demonweb Pits predates FR, the rest is off-subject. And seriously, the Gygax bashing has no basis here.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 28, 2006)

Swordsage said:
			
		

> I guess I was actually, to answer the slightly condescending connotations of your comment.



Gee, I thought that's what we've been doing. You came in snide and have stayed snide and condescending ever since.



> If EVERYTHING came out months and years apart it may suggest one of a couple of things. One: Gygax was a lazy so-and-so who couldn't get his act together to get stuff in publishable form. Two: Gygax had too much on his plate but being a shocking delegator and not very 'collegiate' in his approach to D&D, couldn't churn out the products required. Or Three: He had no overrall idea or view of the many and disparate elements of his campaign world and was reactive rather than proactive regarding product releases.



Or four: TSR didn't have the cash flow to publish terribly quickly and D&D wasn't paying all the bills for everyone in the early days. Or five: We don't know enough to speculate or to slam someone for what they did or didn't do almost 30 years ago, even if this is the Internet.



> That scenario hardly points to Gygax having an over-arching, world-building view and attitude to the various (wonderful) game elements that came out of these tournament modules. He just made stuff up as needed - and most of it was awesome to be fair to the man - but it's not like he then sat down and mapped out the genesis of drow in GH, how they interacted with the Suel whose borders they lived underneath etc. etc. That's what I'm talking about.



Yes, make up a scenario and then damn Gygax using it. He's not even here to defend himself against this strawman.



> The 1E Monster Manual gives us hints regarding the G & D series and their 'place' in the GH firmament? Umm, where? The drow aren't even in the 1E MM.



Look again.

But I have to echo the original question: Other than you just wanting to argue for its own sake, what's the point of this conversation? Did Gygax run over your dog? Did someone suggest that FR fans are bad people?


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## paulsometimes (Nov 28, 2006)

I'm looking forward to the GH book the most.  Mainly because I have very little experience with GH and would like to see what all the hoopla is about.


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## Swordsage (Nov 28, 2006)

I'm leaving this thread as I've said my piece and it serves no purpose to keep flogging a dead tarrasque. Thanks for tha chat.

The Swordsage


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## Pants (Nov 28, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Did someone suggest that FR fans are bad people?



Heh, sorry.   

psst, FR fans eat babies!


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## Wraith Form (Nov 28, 2006)

glass said:
			
		

> Expedition to the City by the Silt Sea?



And my lame-o fanboy butt would buy it.


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## Ranger REG (Nov 28, 2006)

Pants said:
			
		

> Heh, sorry.
> 
> psst, FR fans eat babies!



Only children of _Greyhawk_ fans.


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## glass (Nov 28, 2006)

paulsometimes said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to the GH book the most.  Mainly because I have very little experience with GH and would like to see what all the hoopla is about.



Ditto.


glass.


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## Ranger REG (Nov 29, 2006)

paulsometimes said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to the GH book the most.  Mainly because I have very little experience with GH and would like to see what all the hoopla is about.



Which version? Gary Gygax's _GH_? Carl Sargent's _WoG_?

Would rather see Monte Cook do a take on _GH._ Or even Robin Law's adaptation/reimagination.


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## BadMojo (Nov 29, 2006)

Pants said:
			
		

> psst, FR fans eat babies!




You say that like it's a bad thing.  They're very tender.


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## Pants (Nov 29, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Only children of _Greyhawk_ fans.



So that's how FR took out GH.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2006)

i think the return to greyhawk ruins will be good, especially with the paizo fellows handling it.


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## Razz (Dec 2, 2006)

paulsometimes said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to the GH book the most.  Mainly because I have very little experience with GH and would like to see what all the hoopla is about.




Dunno why GH is so grand, really. I think there're fans of it because it makes them feel good playing in the first campaign setting of D&D itself. I really find GH rather boring, dry, and bland. Like eating a box of unsalted crackers...with nothing to drink. 

I'm a Realms fan all the way. For one, every part of it is exciting. Another reason is because it's rich in variety, both mechanically and roleplay-wise. My next favorite setting would be Planescape, followed by Ravenloft, then Eberron. Eberron is, by far, the most unique of them all and I believe even that setting is more colorful than Greyhawk will ever be, despite the fact it's brand new.

So, most likely until the day I croak, I'll never truly understand the attraction people have to Greyhawk. By comparison to other campaigns, there's really nothing unique about it. I have yet to hear one solid argument that I can nod to about what it has that other campaigns don't have?

But then again, maybe that is the appeal of Greyhawk. It's "normalcy" for a D&D game.


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## 3catcircus (Dec 2, 2006)

Razz said:
			
		

> Dunno why GH is so grand, really. I think there're fans of it because it makes them feel good playing in the first campaign setting of D&D itself. I really find GH rather boring, dry, and bland. Like eating a box of unsalted crackers...with nothing to drink.
> 
> I'm a Realms fan all the way. For one, every part of it is exciting. Another reason is because it's rich in variety, both mechanically and roleplay-wise. My next favorite setting would be Planescape, followed by Ravenloft, then Eberron. Eberron is, by far, the most unique of them all and I believe even that setting is more colorful than Greyhawk will ever be, despite the fact it's brand new.
> 
> ...




I'll preface this by stating that I love FR.

That having been said, I love GH too!  The reason that most of us who love GH, I think, is because the setting provides *just enough* information for a DM to expand upon the way they see fit.  It really wasn't until later in 2nd edition when Robilar, Mordenkainen, etc. were fleshed out.  Prior to that, they were just "legends" in the sense that they were immensely powerful but it was up to the DM as to whether/how he wanted to use them.  I *never* used them except as window dressing - no stats, no nothing.

With FR, the Mordenkainens and Robilars are more pronounced and take a larger part of the stage, as does the detail of the world as a whole - something which some DMs feel is to restrictive as to what *they* want to do with the world.

Of course, it didn't hurt that there were really not many GH books - and those that there were, were set in the *past*, unlike a lot of the FR books which introduce *new* changes to the campaign world (return of the Shadovar, Lolth's silence, etc.)

Essentially, Greyhawk allows DMs to set their campaign at any given time period and know that they *only* have to worry about the Greyhawk Wars (Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire notwithstanding).  In FR, DMs have to contend with the ToT, followed by the return of Bane, not to mention the Shadovar, Lolth's Silence, recapture of Citadel Felbarr, etc.

It isn't about how colorful or unique the campaign setting is, so much as how easy it is to use it and maintain setting continuity in the face of newer published products.  *That* is what is unique about Greyhawk in comparison to other settings.


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## Jason Bulmahn (Dec 3, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i think the return to greyhawk ruins will be good, especially with the paizo fellows handling it.




You should know that such flattery, while obviously true and greatly appreciated, will get you no favors when it comes to accepting your creature collection proposals.. 

maybe... 

Jason Bulmahn
Managing Editor of Dragon
CoAuthor of EttRoGH


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## Pants (Dec 3, 2006)

Razz said:
			
		

> Dunno why GH is so grand, really. I think there're fans of it because it makes them feel good playing in the first campaign setting of D&D itself. I really find GH rather boring, dry, and bland. Like eating a box of unsalted crackers...with nothing to drink.



Assumptions are grand.


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## megamania (Dec 3, 2006)

Chill folks.



Everyone has a favorite campaign world for reasons they will give and for reasons they don't even understand.   No one world is better than another.  Game worlds differ in style, support, flavor and in most cases what you played that was fun.   Darksun is not the best game world out there but it was the first I ever DM'd.  As such it will always be special to me.

Be careful forcing "best" vs. "favorite" vs. most memorible" onto others.   Just enjoy the various game worlds, mine them for whatever you can use and let others enjoy them for themselves.

Maybe its just me but I'm sensing hostility here on this thread and its not needed.

Relax and play.


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## Razz (Dec 4, 2006)

Pants said:
			
		

> Assumptions are grand.




Well that was me being sarcastic, I don't truly think that's the reason people love Greyhawk.    I do believe that the simpleness of GH is probably what makes it appealing and a previous poster already stated that was his reason for liking it so.


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## BaldHero (Dec 4, 2006)

I am appalled at the complete lack of love for the Birthright setting in this conversation.
Birthright could kill GH and FR, if it hadn't already been killed off.


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

IuztheEvil said:
			
		

> You should know that such flattery, while obviously true and greatly appreciated, will get you no favors when it comes to accepting your creature collection proposals..
> 
> maybe...




heh heh heh... 

well, i meant that merely in the sense, as i've said before, that you three guys are such huge greyhawk fans that i'm sure everyone else expects much love and respect for the setting from you guys.


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## Truth Seeker (Dec 4, 2006)

-Parks chair, sit and will wait for the Greyhawk supplement-


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## mhacdebhandia (Dec 4, 2006)

I think Greyhawk is much more interesting than the Forgotten Realms - absolutely stupid names aside - simply because it's not *quite* as much a Tolkien-wannabe as the Forgotten Realms.


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## Nightfall (Dec 4, 2006)

I'm still waiting for my Scarred Lands suppliments.


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## mhacdebhandia (Dec 4, 2006)

Now mention that you like Orcus.


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## Nightfall (Dec 4, 2006)

MH,

I would but they've already put out Fiendish Codex I. Unless they do a deeper guide to Orcus, (or at least undead), I'm not sure there's much need to be said. 

Besides if people can get more Drow, more Greyhawk, and more Eberron, I should get more Scarred Lands.


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## mhacdebhandia (Dec 4, 2006)

I think you can figure out why that's not so.


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Unless they do a deeper guide to Orcus, (or at least undead), I'm not sure there's much need to be said.




there will, almost without a doubt, be a Demonomicon of Orcus at some point in the not-too-distant future.


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## Nightfall (Dec 5, 2006)

Boz,

God I hope so. I plan on purchasing several copies then.  

MH,

yeah well, a guy can dream can't he?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Dec 5, 2006)

So they are doing a Castle Greyhawk book?  I'm kind of torn since I am glad they are putting out a Greyhawk project, I can't see myself buying it since I'm waiting on CZ from TLG for Castle Greyhawk in my game.  While I know CZ won't be the same Greyhawk Dungeon that Gary's group went through in the 1970's, I believe that it will be much closer to that than a book written by someone not connected to that campaign.  Maybe I'll pick it up if I find it cheap, but I can't really afford to buy many books I know I won't use much.  

Good for Mr. Mona though on getting a project I'm sure he really loved doing.


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## qstor (Dec 6, 2006)

paulsometimes said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to the GH book the most.  Mainly because I have very little experience with GH and would like to see what all the hoopla is about.





Try and pick up a copy of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer too.

Mike


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