# Wizard Build Suggestions (PHB ONLY!)



## GakToid

The title says it all.

I'm relinquishing my role as DM for a chance at playing on the other side of the screen. The party needs a controller (level 3) and we're limiting our book selection to the PHB only.

The builds and suggestions I see online always rely on feats/powers/paths from other sources. For exaple, the typical orbizard build isn't possible with just the PHB.

All suggestions welcome.

Thanks in advance.

-Gak Toid


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## Ryujin

Start with a human. That will give you the ability to take at-wills that cover all three NADs.


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## MrMyth

Some thoughts: 

1) Multi-targeting vs Conditions

Controllers do two things well - hit multiple enemies, and inflict powerful conditions upon their foes. You can try to acquire both of these elements, or you could focus on one or the other. 

For example, if you were focused on hitting multiple enemies, Scorching Burst and Thunderwave would make for ideal at-will powers, Burning Hands and Fire Shroud for encounter powers, and Freezing Cloud for a daily. Whenever enemies clump up, you could unleash tons of damage into the lot of them, clearing out minions with ease and softening up the rest for the party.

If you wanted to focus on debuffs, on the other hand, you might want Ray of Frost as an At-Will power instead (a good trade out for Thunderwave, since both target Fort), letting you slow enemies all day long. Chill Strike or Ray of Enfeeblement let you cripple one enemy each fight, and Icy Rays or Color Spray are both very effective 3rd level choices. Sleep, meanwhile, can be a complete game-changer when it works - and even without other resources, Orb of Imposition alone can make it very effective. 

2) Damage Dealing

Most of your damage potential usually comes from hitting multiple enemies. But there are a few builds at low levels that can be quite effective. A Tiefling with the Hellfire Blood feat and max Intelligence has some very effective fire attacks - with Flaming Sphere, as a daily, able to do absolutely brutal amounts of damage since it sits around for an entire fight, pumping automatic damage into enemies. 

3) Survival

Some wizards sit back and enjoy the fight from afar, without ever really coming close to the line of danger - but most get drawn in at some point. Especially if you end up playing a build with any of the Close powers (Thunderwave, Burning Hands, Color Spray, Fire Shroud), you may want to pay some attention to defense. 

Shield, as your level 2 Utility, makes for a very strong choice - some of the others are cool options, but none will regularly be as useful. The Staff of Defense option also helps boost your Defences, and between the two, you can potentially escape sudden danger twice each fight. 

Many wizards look at picking up Leather Armor Proficiency for a quick boost to AC as well - with your high Intelligence, you suddenly are surprisingly good at avoiding blows. It is certainly a decent choice, especially if you plan to spend time at the front lines of combat. 

So... that's some general advice, which is hopefully of use. What sort of character are you looking to play (in terms of either background or combat capability)? More suggestions might be available if there is a more specific concept in mind.


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## kerbarian

With just the PHB, I don't think there are really wizard "builds".  At least, I think of builds as sets of powers, feats, items, etc. that work together in interesting or synergistic ways.  The PHB wizard is a great class, but It seems like the powers and feats are all pretty independent of each other.  About the only synergies I can think of are sleep + orb mastery or the elemental damage feats with appropriate powers.

In a way, though, not being able to have a focused build is nice, in that you can choose the best powers at each level without restrictions.


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## Herschel

PHB only I'd probably go Human Orb or Staff Wizard.


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## KarinsDad

Human Staff Wizard with 20 Int, 14 Wis and taking Cloud of Daggers, Thunderwave, and Scorching Burst. For one of his feats, take Leather Armor. Ignore the fact that his Con is not high enough to help out the Staff once per encounter.

Note: You can even get away with 12 Wis if you want 12 Cha or 12 Con or 12 Dex or something. A Thunderwave push of 1 and a minion killing Cloud of Daggers 1 is sufficient for most needs.

This PC is fairly awesome. He's +5 to hit and damage, has AC 18 at level one (20 if you remember cover behind allies), and has some control with his At Wills.

For everything else, pick what you like. This guy has the core you need.


Wizard is one of the few classes that can start out with 20 in his main ability score. Take advantage of that.


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## DracoSuave

GakToid said:


> For exaple, the typical orbizard build isn't possible with just the PHB.




The Orbizard has been around as long as the PHB1.  Other things have come later to improve on it, but... back then it was:

Elf, 18 Wis, 16 Int, Orb of Imposition Go!


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## Nifft

GakToid said:


> The party needs a controller



 First off: no they don't. Controllers are nice to have and fun to play, but you'll probably contribute just as much playing a Leader, and if your goal is to help (which is the tone I get from your post), you may find that role more fulfilling.

Cleric and Warlord are both great, and Wisdom-based Clerics have plenty of area attacks to nuke minions.



GakToid said:


> The builds and suggestions I see online always rely on feats/powers/paths from other sources. For exaple, the typical orbizard build isn't possible with just the PHB.



 Orb Wizard just needs a 16-18 Wisdom and something to force a save. The broken spell is Sleep; the first "(save ends)" spell you can throw out every encounter is Fire Shroud (encounter 3).

IMHO Human is a great race for a Wizard because of all the beautiful At-Will powers, but that's in the context of access to more than just the PHB. If you have only access to the PHB, you only have:

 Thunderwave
 Cloud of Daggers
 Scorching Burst
 Magic Missile
 Ray of Frost

How many of those do you look at and say, "I NEED THAT"? All I really see a need for is is Thunderwave + one ranged spell which doesn't target Fort, because Thunderwave has that covered. Then it comes down to what your race & secondary stats look like: if you have a high Wisdom, then Cloud of Daggers becomes quite good; if you are a Tiefling and can get an extra +1 to hit with Fire spells, Scorching Burst looks pretty sweet.

Also party composition matters here. If you have a Tiefling on the front line, you can include him in your Scorching Burst without too much worry, and that increases its utility. If you have an archery Ranger, you can expect some encounters to take place when the enemy is 20 squares away: then Magic Missile becomes quite useful. But those are exceptions, rather than the rule.

Ray of Frost never looks good.

- - -

Anyway. Hope that helps.

Cheers, -- N


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## Turtlejay

Ooof, PHB only eh?  The only two builds I remember from PHB have been mentioned, the Orbizard (Elf for full lockdown at high level, and the elven accuracy reroll) and Tiefling Fire Wizard to maximize your to-hit with fire spells.

I don't think a wizard *needs* a build.  Choose an implement, a PP goal, and then pick powers that fit.  I'd judge Orb as the strongest implement, even if you don't optimize it.  The nice side effect there is the more you pump your wis for orb, the better Thunderwave gets.  Staff is okay, not so much for the Con rider, but for the defensive bonus.  You can afford to spread your stats a little to take feats if you go Staff.

Even with just PHB, there are three good at-wills to take if you go Human.  Human or Tiefling look most attractive to me, but what you build should fit what you want your wizard to do.  Do you want a damage dealing off-striker, or a more well-rounded utilitarian?

Jay


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## GakToid

*More Info*

Thanks for the replies everyone.



Ryujin said:


> Start with a human. That will give you the ability to take at-wills that cover all three NADs.




Unfortunately, there's no at-wills that target will defense in the PHB. However, I will still be picking human. I'll use that extra at-will for magic missile. How can you play a magic-user^H^H^H^H wizard without magic missile? It's unpossible.

The rest of the part is:

dragonborn fighter (sword 'n' board)
dragonborn warlord (inspiring)
halfling rogue (artful dodger)
elf ranger (archery)
elf ranger (melee and archery)

The second elf ranger may or may not be continuing with the party.



Nifft said:


> First off: no they don't. Controllers are nice to have and fun to play, but you'll probably contribute just as much playing a Leader, and if your goal is to help (which is the tone I get from your post), you may find that role more fulfilling.




What do you think the party needs? Obviously not another striker (or "off-striker"). A control focused wizard seemed like a good fit.

-Gak Toid


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## sfedi

I would add an Offensive Defender to that party.


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## KarinsDad

GakToid said:


> What do you think the party needs? Obviously not another striker (or "off-striker"). A control focused wizard seemed like a good fit.




Your idea is fine. Play what you want.


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## Turtlejay

It certainly looks like a control focused wizard could fit in with your party.  Has anyone noticed that you have an otherwise all melee party?  Play up your Arcane nature.  You can be the go-to guy for Arcana, Religion, History, and other checks.  Ritual Caster is a boon.  Really, you will be useful just by *showing up*, and the rest is just the creamy whipped topping.

I'm tempted to suggest Thunderwave, Scorching Burst, and Cloud of Daggers as your at-wills, but your love for Magic Missile means you should probably replace one of those with your favorite spell.  There are a lot of good area spells.  With your party overflowing with melee strikers, spells that are enemy only will probably be easier to use.  Okay, overflowing is mean, but you do have 2 or 3 melee characters, so if you do go for multi-target attacks (which you should) go for enemy only ones.

Not optimized at all, really, but something I would play and enjoy:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Wizard, level 3
Human, Wizard
Build: Control Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition
Background: Occupation - Scholar (+2 to Arcana)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12.


AC: 18 Fort: 14 Reflex: 17 Will: 18
HP: 30 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +9, Arcana +12, Nature +9, History +10, Religion +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Endurance +2, Heal +4, Insight +4, Intimidate +2, Perception +4, Stealth, Streetwise +2, Thievery, Athletics +1

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Human: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 1: Action Surge
Level 2: Human Perseverance

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Thunderwave
Wizard at-will 1: Magic Missile
Wizard at-will 1: Scorching Burst
Wizard encounter 1: Force Orb
Wizard daily 1: Flaming Sphere
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Sleep
Wizard utility 2: Shield
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Expeditious Retreat
Wizard encounter 3: Fire Shroud

ITEMS
Spellbook, Orb of Inevitable Continuance +1, Amulet of Health +1, Magic Leather Armor +1, Adventurer's Kit, Potion of Healing (heroic tier)
RITUALS
Tenser's Floating Disk, Make Whole, Gentle Repose, Eye of Alarm
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Jay


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## Nifft

GakToid said:


> What do you think the party needs? Obviously not another striker (or "off-striker"). A control focused wizard seemed like a good fit.



 Leader: check.
Striker: check, check, check.
Defender: one Fighter (check, useful for the Rogue).

Looks to me like they don't need anyone in particular. So play a Wizard if that's what you want... but just don't play a Wizard because the party needs a Controller.

There's no such thing as too many Strikers or Leaders. Warlords in particular have an ironic need for another Leader to set up their Daily attack powers, since they have so many powers which do nothing at all on a miss.

That said, Wizards are great. I'm playing one and he kicks ass. If you're playing one because you want to play one, do it and have fun.

Cheers, -- N


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## MadLordOfMilk

Honestly, just start off with an 18 int, make sure you take Thunderwave if your WIS isn't completely pitiful, and *absolutely* take Flaming Sphere, and you'll be golden  (Especially if you have a special mini for flaming sphere, hehe)

If you want the full PHB-style orb wizard build, I'll throw a post together... it's not hard, just it doesn't completely guarantee a sleep-lock until epic tier.

* If you want a fun build, go for a Battlemage!* Pick Eladrin, Human, or Tiefling. For your implement, choose Staff of Defense. For your first feat, pick up Armor Proficiency (Leather). Second one is up to you.

For a stat spread, pre-racial try something like this, if you want to pick up hide armor later for another ac point: STR 13, CON 13, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 14, CHA 10

Grab Thunderwave and w/e other at-will you'd like. Grab Burning Hands for your lv1 encounter (close power), and Flaming Sphere as the obvious daily choice. For your lv2 utility, take Shield. For your lv3 encounter, pick up Color Spray or Fire Shroud (also close powers).

*Here's an in-depth analysis, if you're looking to build something on your own:*

Stats: 18 int is a must, honestly; you roll more attack rolls due to all the area attacks you make. 20 might or might not be overkill, but it depends on your choices. If you want to pick up a shield, you'll need 13str. For hide armor, you need 13str/13con. 

At-will powers: Thunderwave is just pure win... blast damage + push is lovely. Cloud of Daggers is awesome if your group does a lot of push/pull/slide stuff, but if not, pretty meh. Magic missile is always a classic, and is incredibly long range, but not terribly powerful for obvious reasons. Ray of Frost is nice for keeping big guys near the defender if you're ranged-heavy, but it's a bit more situational. Scorching Burst is fun for ranged burst at-will action.

Encounter lv1: Icy Terrain is nice for controlling an area and knocking stuff down, opening things up for your party. Chill Strike's daze is always a welcome feature.

Daily lv1: *Flaming Sphere.* Period. No, I'm serious, it's amazing. Other options: Freezing Cloud will wipe out a nice, large area of minions, and deal decent damage. Acid Arrow = damage. Sleep only has 25% chance of even noticeably affecting a target for one round. For a daily? Blech. Sure, it's got broken applications, but you can just retrain for it later or keep it in your spellbook.

Utility lv2: Expeditious Retreat can give you a lot of room to maneuver when you'd otherwise be doomed. Shield comes up often enough where it'll _always_ get used in an encounter. Jump lets you grant someone else movement in combat, and enables jumping over obstacles easily. Feather Fall is a bit too situational for my tastes, but it depends on your DM.

Encounter lv3: Color Spray provides an excellent effect. Fire Shroud reliably targets almost any enemy, and deals fire damage. Icy Rays is nice for keeping enemies from leaving the defender or running around/away (skirmishers/artillery killer), Shock Sphere blows things up (but also targets allies unlike Fire Shroud)


*Long-term concerns*
In paragon tier, you need 15 Con for hide armor specialization (if you go that route). You need 15 Dex for arcane reach, an amazing feat. You need 13 Cha for Spell Focus, which is nice if you're using a few save ends effects (or are going for orb wizard).


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## GakToid

Nifft said:


> Ray of Frost never looks good.



Really? Slow at will seems useful.

Thanks for the info. Here's something I'm considering. Let me know if I'm gimping myself.

I don't have access to the character builder, so this is by hand. Let me know if there are errors.



> Race: Human
> Class: Wizard
> Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition
> 
> Ability Scores, with racial adjustments:
> Str 8 (-1)
> Con 12 (+1)
> Dex 10 (+0)
> Int 18 (+4)
> Wis 16 (+3)
> Cha 12 (+1)
> 
> Basic Melee
> Longsword: +2 vs. AC (1d8-1 damage)
> 
> Basic Ranged
> Magic Missile: +4 vs. Ref (2d4+4)
> 
> Default Save Penalty: -0
> 
> Modifiers:
> Orb of Imposition (Encounter): -3
> 
> Maximum Save Penalty: -3
> 
> HP: 22; Bloodied: 11; Surges: 7 (5 HP)
> AC/Fort/Ref/Will: 16/12/15/16
> Initiative: +0; Speed: 6
> 
> Cantrips: ghost sound, light, mage hand, prestidigitation
> At-will Powers: cloud of daggers (or ray of frost), magic missile, thunderwave
> Encounter Powers: icy terrain (or chillstrike)
> Daily Powers: flaming sphere, sleep
> Daily Spell Slots:
> Level 1 or lower - 1
> 
> Skills: Arcana (+9), Dungeoneering (+8), Insight (+8), Nature (+9), Religion (+9)
> Feats: Armor Proficiency (leather), Weapon Proficiency (longsword)
> Rituals: animal messenger, comprehend language, Tenser's floating disk
> 
> Gear: longsword, leather armor, orb, spellbook, standard adventurer's kit, 30gp




Basic character concept:
Looks likes a ranger, acts like a ranger, isn't a ranger.
I'm thinking about Wizard of the Spiral Tower Path. Not sure if I want to start staff and pick up orb at 11 or start orb and pick up staff at 11. My reasoning is that I'm going to want to wield an orb for the powers, why not put the staff in the sword and get both.

Future Feats: Improved Initiative, Human Perseverance, Action Surge, ??, ??, Spell Focus, Danger Sense, Second Implement, ??, ??

Future Powers: expeditious retreat, shield, color spray, stinking cloud, web, dimension door, wall of fog (levitate?), winter's wrath, ice storm, wall of fire

-Gak Toid


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## MadLordOfMilk

Solid character build, overall.

Feat-wise, I'd hold off on the longsword proficiency until the last minute for your PP, but flavor-wise you probably wouldn't want to wait that long.

Skills: Assuming your DM is going with the errata'd skill DC by level table, I'd swap out one of the over-abundant knowledge skills for Diplomacy, if only because it comes up so often. It's a personal choice, but it does make RP under many DMs easier/more engaging, in my experience. Yes, it's not a primary stat that you're boosting, but that +5 is huge enough to make it somewhat reliable.

Powers: 


I'd go with Cloud of Daggers for your party makeup, as they should be able to push/pull/slide things through it frequently.
Icy Terrain vs Chill Strike is a tough call with your party. I'd pick chill strike, if only because it might be tough to easily place icy terrain in a useful spot with such a melee-heavy party without smacking your allies with it.
As you're focusing on battlefield control, for your lv2 utility, keep in mind that Jump lets you move an ally mid-combat instead of yourself. All of the utilities are pretty solid choices, though.


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## Nifft

GakToid said:


> Really? Slow at will seems useful.



 With a range of 20, it would be. Remember that even a slowed dude can move 4 squares and still attack.



GakToid said:


> Looks likes a ranger, acts like a ranger, isn't a ranger.
> I'm thinking about Wizard of the Spiral Tower Path. Not sure if I want to start staff and pick up orb at 11 or start orb and pick up staff at 11. My reasoning is that I'm going to want to wield an orb for the powers, why not put the staff in the sword and get both.



 IMHO the main reason to go for Spiral Tower is to:
1/ Give you something to do in melee, which you already have (Thunderwave); and
2/ Allow you to both wield a staff and use a shield, which you can't do anyway, because of your Str.

I'm a fan of Blood Mage, but none of the Wizard paragon paths in the PHB are actually bad.



GakToid said:


> Future Feats: Improved Initiative, Human Perseverance, Action Surge, ??, ??, Spell Focus, Danger Sense, Second Implement, ??, ??



 I'd advise Action Surge be one of your 1st level feats. It's so awesome for an area-attacker it might as well be the human's racial bonus.

If you're in trouble and you need to spend an action point to Thunderwave some jerks out of your face, you will appreciate the feat just as much as if you use it on Flaming Shroud to ensure you have someone to Orb.

Leather proficiency is a great feat, so keep that. Drop the long sword.



GakToid said:


> Future Powers: expeditious retreat, shield, color spray, stinking cloud, web, dimension door, wall of fog (levitate?), winter's wrath, ice storm, wall of fire



 Shield is the best thing ever.

I like Color Spray a lot, but I suspect your party won't have a solid front line, so you'll have to choose between Dazing allies vs. not getting many enemies in the area of effect. For your Orb feature, too, I'd look at Flaming Shroud -- it's the earliest Encounter power with (save ends).

Levitate is situational, but it can save your butt in combat, and it's useful outside of combat.

Cheers, -- N


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## Obryn

GakToid said:


> Really? Slow at will seems useful.



It can be in some cases, but its basic problem is (IMO) its range, combined with how situational Slow is.  It's great with a lot of difficult terrain, or if you're targeting a melee combatant more than 6 squares away from your front line, but in practice, it can be tough to get it working.

Remember that most melee foes without reach can attack someone up to 4 squares away with a Move 2 + Charge 2, unless you've done something else to them, like dazing them or knocking them prone.  IME, they could reach someone every single round after combat starts.  Since your range is 10, you don't have much of a buffer to spare unless you're standing in front of your tanks.  It could help if you stack up zones, or a swordmage marks them, but that's about it.

So yeah.  It's situationally useful, but generally you're better off with the vanilla magic missile for the extra range and damage boost.

-O


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## DracoSuave

Obryn said:


> It can be in some cases, but its basic problem is (IMO) its range, combined with how situational Slow is.  It's great with a lot of difficult terrain, or if you're targeting a melee combatant more than 6 squares away from your front line, but in practice, it can be tough to get it working.
> 
> Remember that most melee foes without reach can attack someone up to 4 squares away with a Move 2 + Charge 2, unless you've done something else to them, like dazing them or knocking them prone.  IME, they could reach someone every single round after combat starts.  Since your range is 10, you don't have much of a buffer to spare unless you're standing in front of your tanks.  It could help if you stack up zones, or a swordmage marks them, but that's about it.
> 
> So yeah.  It's situationally useful, but generally you're better off with the vanilla magic missile for the extra range and damage boost.
> 
> -O




For a battle mage, I'd suggest Thunderwave, Scorching Burst, and Cloud of Daggers myself.  Your -real- advantage with Scorching Burst isn't -just- that it's area and can hit multiple minions... it's that it doesn't care about cover/concealment.  Yes, you -can- use it to fox out a goblin in a trench shooting death at you.


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## Nifft

DracoSuave said:


> For a battle mage, I'd suggest Thunderwave, Scorching Burst, and Cloud of Daggers myself.  Your -real- advantage with Scorching Burst isn't -just- that it's area and can hit multiple minions... it's that it doesn't care about cover/concealment.  Yes, you -can- use it to fox out a goblin in a trench shooting death at you.



 Yep, Scorching Burst is fantastic in the role of cover-negation. Even if the DM doesn't use "3d" cover like trenches, it works around corners, behind pillars, and shoots through Warhog Corridorcloggers (Large Elite Brute).

Cheers, -- N


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## KarinsDad

MadLordOfMilk said:


> Stats: 18 int is a must, honestly; you roll more attack rolls due to all the area attacks you make. 20 might or might not be overkill, but it depends on your choices. If you want to pick up a shield, you'll need 13str. For hide armor, you need 13str/13con.




The main purpose of picking up a shield, hide, and a paragon specialization is to create an Iron Mage with the absolutely best AC possible.

The advantage of a 20 Int for a Wizard is that he automatically gets +1 AC and +1 Reflex (in addition to +1 to hit and +1 damage) without taking a single feat. He doesn't have to take the Light Shield feat cause his AC and Reflex is already that high.

20 is overkill for an Orb wizard or a Wand wizard where a second ability score is needed, but not for a Staff wizard. It's not overkill for a wizard that concentrates on area effects either.


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## Elric

If you're only really concerned with heroic tier, I'd say: Human, 8 Str/18 (+2) Int/13 Con/13 Wis.  Take Staff of Defense, Cloud of Daggers, Scorching Burst, Thunderwave.  Feats: Leather Armor and two of Improved Initiative, Action Surge, Toughness.

Orb of Imposition isn't good until Paragon and if you get there you can always take the Second Implement feat.


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## Obryn

DracoSuave said:


> For a battle mage, I'd suggest Thunderwave, Scorching Burst, and Cloud of Daggers myself.  Your -real- advantage with Scorching Burst isn't -just- that it's area and can hit multiple minions... it's that it doesn't care about cover/concealment.  Yes, you -can- use it to fox out a goblin in a trench shooting death at you.



For clarification, I was only comparing magic missile and ray of frost.   I think MM is probably one of the worst choices for a Wizard, ironically.

-O


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## pauljathome

I had a great time with my Eladrin thunderwaving staff wizard. The Fey Step ability can be very, very useful both for getting into good position and for occassionally getting out of trouble. My starting stats were Int 16 (18 with racial modifier), 14 con, 15 wisdom. This allowed the Staff abillity to generally be useful once an encounter. Combined with the Shield spell and Leather armour I ended up with a character quite happy to go on the front lines and help the Rogue flank.

If you're not planning on an orbizard then Flaming Sphere is, hands down, the daily power to take. It basically won several encounters at low levels.

With just the PHB you'll run out of really interesting feats quite quickly and your bonus skill as an Eladrin is better than that for a human. So about the only thing Eladrins really give up vs human is the extra at will. And, IMO, Fey Step is a lot more useful.

The thunderwave power is useful even with only a push of 2. But when you raise your Wisdom and get a magic item it can start to get very good. How useful depends on circumstances, of course, but it can often end up forcing enemies to either fight people they don't want to or to shift and charge and just get a basic attack,


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## KarinsDad

Obryn said:


> I think MM is probably one of the worst choices for a Wizard, ironically.




Actually, I came this close to taking Magic Missile for my recent Wizard. I finally changed it to Phantom Bolt, but it was a real tough decision.

There is something to be said for range and solid (i.e. rarely low) damage.


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## LightPhoenix

KarinsDad said:


> There is something to be said for range and solid (i.e. rarely low) damage.




Especially if you throw in Bracers of the Perfect Shot.

I think the biggest problem with MM is the lack of feats and items in the PHB that interact with it.


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## boar

Having played a 20 INT, 14 WIS staff wizard with scorching burst, cloud of daggers, and thunderwave, I can tell you that the build is underwhelming for a number of reasons:

1) The staff interrupt is great, and it sucks not having it.

2) It's great that CoD auto-kills minions, but if you're only targeting a single minion, either the battle is already over or you're targeting the wrong thing. Also, the 10 range is surprisingly limiting -- there were tons of instances where I'd have loved the higher range of Magic Missile.

3) That extra square of push with Thunderwave, which I thought would be really sexy, wasn't.

Based on that experience, here's what I would do now if I had to play a Wizard again:

20 INT
13 CON
13 WIS (if you care about pushing with Thunderwave)

-- or --

20 INT
14 CON
11 WIS (if you don't)

At-Will:
Thunderwave
Scorching Burst
Magic Missile

Encounter:
Force Orb
Fire Shroud

Utility:
Shield
Whatever

Daily:
Flaming Sphere
Whatever

Feats:
Leather Armor
Weapon Focus: Staff
Toughness
Weapon Expertise (at level 4)

Items:
Bracers of the Perfect Shot (+2 damage with Magic Missile)
Your pick of leather armor, neck slot, and staff (in the PHB they all suck, so do whatever)

Your AC is high, your single-target damage is way up there, and your hitpoints are passable. Boost INT and CON with your stat bumps and you'll be a rockin' addition to the party.


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## Turtlejay

boar said:


> <<stuff>>
> Items:
> Bracers of the Perfect Shot (+2 damage with Magic Missile)
> Your pick of leather armor, neck slot, and staff (in the PHB they all suck, so do whatever)
> 
> Your AC is high, your single-target damage is way up there, and your hitpoints are passable. Boost INT and CON with your stat bumps and you'll be a rockin' addition to the party.




This was my worry.  Items in the PHB are pretty thin.  The AV was one of the first books out, and filled that hole quick.  There are loads more good implements in the AV, but if you are just going PHB. . .not really much to write home about.

Cloud of Daggers is minion autokill, which is *something*, wheras Ray of Frost is lackluster damage and slow, which is *nothing*.  Not much, anyways.  Cloud of Daggers will be situational, but that is okay.  You really will have one at-will you tend to use most, and your other one can be kind of situational.  As a human you can have two of those.  I'd not sweat it too much, since you will have at least one great option, and can retrain the others if you find yourself not using them.

Just another plug for fire shroud:
 - Enemies only
 - In a Burst
 - Save ends fire damage
 - Every encounter

I don't know why one wouldn't take it.  It rocks.  At low levels, you have precious little to use your orb on, so an Encounter with save ends means you can throw this out for a higher chance of a little extra damage.

I agree that the Orb is not great early on.  The Staff's effect is okay, but the bonus to defense is really nice.  I went with orb on the build I posted because it was more of a stand-back-and-murder wizard, but with your Rangery nature, Staff works well.  Stat arrays are mutable, but I like the one you had already.

Jay


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## Prestidigitalis

Turtlejay said:


> This was my worry.  Items in the PHB are pretty thin.  The AV was one of the first books out, and filled that hole quick.  There are loads more good implements in the AV, but if you are just going PHB. . .not really much to write home about.




Is it clear that the DM won't be pulling in items from other books?  I know it's common to say "Core books only", but it usually goes without saying that the DM can use anything they want.  

Just to take it to the point of absurdity: there are no monsters in the PHB, so clearly "PHB only" means there will be no monsters in the game.

It's far more likely that "PHB only" is a restriction on the players and only the players.  Put those Bracers of the Perfect Shot on your wish list.


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## jbear

If you are going to spend your human feat on proficiency with a long sword, you may as well go eladrin, who gets it for free, and then you teleport and get a +2 bonus to dex which raises your initiative and is more 'ranger-like'.

Do you want the longsword to multi-class into sword-mage ? Obviously not if you're only using the phb. If you ever want to hit with it you will need melee training (also not in the phb). Actually many viable builds for a wizaed using a longsword are denied to you by restrincting your sources.

Having a +2 from the eladrin in dexterity makes it very east to achieve the required 13 to multi-class with ranger.

Any just a few thoughts after having read your character concept.


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## GakToid

Thanks for the advice everyone. I need some time to review my options. I'll post my final build when it's ready.

-Gak Toid


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## GakToid

How does wintertouched and lasting frost affect the evaluation of cold based powers? Does ray of frost "look good"?

There doesn't seem be much feat support for other damage types in the PHB. Does cold need the bump or are the other choices simply inferior?

-Gak Toid


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## Nifft

GakToid said:


> How does wintertouched and lasting frost affect the evaluation of cold based powers? Does ray of frost "look good"?



 No. Not in my opinion anyway. It's hard to set up, and the payoff is that you have to use a crappy at-will power which becomes slightly less crappy.

Now, if you have a whole party geared towards Frost-cheese, with the Rogue and Fighter swinging around Frost weapons, and most other party members able to use those same feats: you can pretty much count on always having a target around who is already suffering from Vulnerable 5 Cold, and then it becomes a reasonable choice. *But not otherwise.*

Cheers, -- N


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## Destil

There's some level of feat support for most everything but necrotic, generally in paragon, though fire and radiant are both in epic. Cold, force and thunder have two feats each (force and thunder sharing Solid Sound), with every other damage type having one.

Cold is easily the strongest (though I think thunder is quite good too). Radiant is most likely the weakest, since it only triggers on a crit if memory serves. There's *plenty* of support for radiant in later books, however.

Ray of frost is at least less middling with the cold support, what it really does it crank up the power level of the other wizard cold powers, which are often quite good (lots of area denial and better status effects for encounters and dallies).


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## Turtlejay

What sucks though, is that a lot of the support for those other damage types are not in the PHB.  And the cold damage cheese only matures at Paragon.  If you want to exploit it, you can retrain a feat at tenth, and your at will at eleventh, and boom, you did it.  For the first ten levels though, you should have a plan besides 'hanging on until I get good'.  I am discovering again why those kinds of characters don't last long.

It would be much better to build a solid, rounded character based on your character ideals (his rangeryness and wizardlikeness) and enjoy that, than to shoehorn him into a cheesy feat/power combo.

Jay


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## GakToid

Turtlejay said:


> What sucks though, is that a lot of the support for those other damage types are not in the PHB.  And the cold damage cheese only matures at Paragon.  If you want to exploit it, you can retrain a feat at tenth, and your at will at eleventh, and boom, you did it.  For the first ten levels though, you should have a plan besides 'hanging on until I get good'.  I am discovering again why those kinds of characters don't last long.
> 
> It would be much better to build a solid, rounded character based on your character ideals (his rangeryness and wizardlikeness) and enjoy that, than to shoehorn him into a cheesy feat/power combo.
> 
> Jay




That's good advice Jay. Definitely a trap I find myself falling into too often.

Right now I'm trying to decided between staff and orb. My initial design had more of a controller focus. As the character concept has developed I'm leaning more toward a rangery style. Warrior of the Wild is probably a sub-optimal feat choice, but it fits. I can always pick up orb at 11 (if I live that long).

I think I just talked myself into staff.

-Gak Toid


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## UngeheuerLich

Be sure, not many multiclass feats are suboptimal... it gives you a 2d6 damage boost and a nice skill training.

longsword and staff doesn´t work that well. A staff is nearly as good in melee as the longsword, wizard of the spiral tower doesn´t work well with the staff implement. You lose out the AC bonus.


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## UngeheuerLich

Turtlejay said:


> It would be much better to build a solid, rounded character based on your character ideals (his rangeryness and wizardlikeness) and enjoy that, than to shoehorn him into a cheesy feat/power combo.
> 
> Jay




I have never encountered a PC which made it into their cheesy built... usually such builts evolve from playing a rounded character first...

have some xp


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## GakToid

UngeheuerLich said:


> longsword and staff doesn´t work that well. A staff is nearly as good in melee as the longsword, wizard of the spiral tower doesn´t work well with the staff implement. You lose out the AC bonus.




Well...phooey.
Corellon's Implement seems like a pretty crappy feature if you still have to wield the implement in question to get the implement mastery bonuses.

"Hey guys! I don't need my wand to cast spells, except when I need my wand to cast spells. WTF?"

Getting a 13 dex with human is awkward:
Str 8 (-1)
Con 13 (+1)
Dex 13 (+1)
Int 16+2 = 18 (+4)
Wis 14 (+2)
Cha 12 (+1)

-Gak Toid


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## AbdulAlhazred

Honestly, I'm going to suggest some things that others have neglected based on what I've experienced as the DM.

First lets analyze what your party is going to be doing and what they need. In terms of non-combat stuff they're going to be wanting some of those INT based knowledge skills like Arcana and Religion. Wis based ones like Dungeoneering, Nature, and Insight are not bad either. You're going to be the ONLY ritual caster, so you'll be doing a good bit of that and there are some Nature based rituals that can be worth having.

Tactically in combat the party's main issue is going to be strictly control. With a bow ranger and the artful dodger they can dish out plenty of damage backed up by the warlord and even S&B fighters can put out pretty reasonable damage. The front line is going to be fairly solid in all likelihood. What you're going to be wanting to do is minion clearance and making it so the enemy can't either easily outflank the front line or can't all close with it at once so the damage dealers can handle them piecemeal. High damage is not something you'll care about much at all. As long as you can put some reasonable damage out there when it counts that will be fine.

So I would build an Eladrin Wand Wizard. You'll be able to hit stuff pretty much every time you really need a hit without needing to go to the warlord for a buff. You get to use Eladrin Education for an extra skill, which is going to be pretty handy in this party too.

Don't bother with Thunderwave, its a decent power but you aren't going to be getting a lot of mileage out of it because its going to be tough to avoid hitting allies with it and frankly a push of one or two squares from close range when you can't use it on enemies already in the party's face is pretty worthless.

Scorching Burst is going to be an excellent at-will for you. It will clear minions left and right and with a high INT mod it does OK damage. Its not a GREAT control spell and there are better choices in AP but it works, ignores cover, and targeting reflex is not bad (will is better, but at least its not going vs fort).

Ideally you WOULD like the 2nd at-will to cover a different NAD, but you don't have a lot of good choices. TWave just isn't great and Ray of Frost frankly is pretty poor all around (slow at range 10 is pretty worthless). You could go with MM which fits your character concept and gives you an RBA which the warlord can toss you extra attacks with. CoD would be an OK choice as well but its not clearly better and range 20 is one of those things you die if you don't have when you need it (which is rarely, but when you do, you REALLY do).

I would go with Icy Terrain as your encounter power at level 1. Its yet another vs Reflex attack, but the real point is to be able to throw it out on a flank or catch a bunch of incoming skirmishers/brutes/soldiers and hold some of them back a bit so the melee guys can pick on them in ones and twos instead of all at once. 

There is no choice for primary level 1 Daily. Flaming Sphere is simply so superior its not even a question of a choice. It gives great control since nobody wants to go near at (and can't go through it directly) which you can move around to block choke points, etc. Even in an open field battle you can do a lot of damage with it. I'd probably take Freezing Cloud for my backup daily as it works vs fort, has a BIG area for its level, and low level monsters are unlikely to want to go through it to get to you. I doubt you'll really use it, but at least it gives you a cold attack and something that isn't going on reflex in case you run into stuff that resists fire or something bizarre like that. 

Definitely go for Shield as a utility power. Expeditious Retreat is not bad, but you have Fey Step which can already do about the same thing. Jump is a good second choice early on but you'll likely only use it once in a very long time.

For level 3 encounter power go with Icy Rays. Immobilized is a good effect and the damage is good. Again you are trying to slow down the enemy and keep them off your guys so they can be picked off one at a time or to thwart a flanking maneuver. Its also a great power for stopping "runners", which is something you may often be wanting to do.

As for a stat allocation I'd basically go with the fairly obvious. Take the 16/14/14/12/11/8 array and get 18 INT, 16 DEX, and 14 WIS. You can throw the 12 and the 11 in CON and STR which will be good enough to get you into hide armor at some point and a shield (it will be a while, but at least you can pick up the shield proficiency pretty quick).

You will have longsword to start with and you will be set for WotST or Battle Mage. 

Go with Improved Initiative for your feat. With your DEX bonus at +3 and another +4 you will almost always go first in any fight. This allows you to drop in an area attack well ahead of the rest of the party so you can hand them a nicely canned tactical situation with Icy Terrain or blow up a wave of minions with Scorching Burst before anything else happens. Often before monsters can scatter and make it hard to mass target them.


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## UngeheuerLich

GakToid said:


> Well...phooey.
> Corellon's Implement seems like a pretty crappy feature if you still have to wield the implement in question to get the implement mastery bonuses.
> 
> "Hey guys! I don't need my wand to cast spells, except when I need my wand to cast spells. WTF?"
> 
> Getting a 13 dex with human is awkward:
> Str 8 (-1)
> Con 13 (+1)
> Dex 13 (+1)
> Int 16+2 = 18 (+4)
> Wis 14 (+2)
> Cha 12 (+1)
> 
> -Gak Toid



I think you get the mastery bonuses, but not the +1 AC while wielding a staff.


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## AbdulAlhazred

Hmmm, yeah, CI does say "when casting your spells" which tends to imply that it doesn't work for implement mastery since IM feature stuff are not spells. Odd since the Eladrin Sword Wizardry feat works for everything and even lets you emulate ALL types of implements, no picking one required. Ah well.


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## GakToid

The Iron Mage thread implies that you get the +1 AC when wielding a longsword.

-Gak Toid


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## UngeheuerLich

when you don´t have powers that are based on wisdom, 12 wisdom is sufficent. Thus you could even use such a spread:

13/13/14/16/12/8 which gives you instant access to hide and a shield and shield specialization later. You can raise wisdom or dex at level 4 and 8. If you are worried about actually using your sword.

13/12/14/16/13/8 and raise strength and wisdom at 4 and 8. This will even allow for heavy shield at level 11, quite passable defenses and more or less reliable opportunity attacks...

edit:
@ GakToid: character builder told me otherwise... for what it´s worth...


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## AbdulAlhazred

GakToid said:


> The Iron Mage thread implies that you get the +1 AC when wielding a longsword.
> 
> -Gak Toid




Yeah, and I was just thinking about the whole issue. What would "when you are casting your spells" MEAN anyway??? Neither staves nor orbs have any effect during the casting of a spell in a general sense. Wand of Accuracy would work as it is invoked during the use of a spell, but CI certainly seems to be written as if you're gaining something by choosing orb or staff as the implement to emulate. I'd have to say that my feeling is it is supposed to work like "its the same as having the chosen type of implement". The "when casting spells" may be more along the lines of telling you "otherwise its just a longsword".


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## AbdulAlhazred

UngeheuerLich said:


> when you don´t have powers that are based on wisdom, 12 wisdom is sufficent. Thus you could even use such a spread:
> 
> 13/13/14/16/12/8 which gives you instant access to hide and a shield and shield specialization later. You can raise wisdom or dex at level 4 and 8. If you are worried about actually using your sword.
> 
> 13/12/14/16/13/8 and raise strength and wisdom at 4 and 8. This will even allow for heavy shield at level 11, quite passable defenses and more or less reliable opportunity attacks...
> 
> edit:
> @ GakToid: character builder told me otherwise... for what it´s worth...




True, for the wand wizard build you really have little use for WIS, aside from possibly skills you might want, but there are certainly a lot of choices. You could also switch wis and cha and go with 13/12/14/16/8/13 which gives some decent skills and access to at least one fairly nice feat (though probably at the cost of better ones come to think of it). I do kind of like the 13/13/14/16/12/8 distribution though for hide and shield. The AC otherwise is pretty scary, lol. I mean having Shield and Fey Step will PROBABLY keep you mostly out of trouble, but there is that danger of getting ganked by some lurker or other, or having a grumpy DM pour all the archer minions arrows down on the poor wizard...


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## Zustiur

As AbdulAlhazred mentioned, you really don't need to worry about damage.
With the party you outlined, damage is taken care of. As you've chosen to play a controller, you really need to focus on what a controller _does._
So my advice is forget damage only spells. Go with anything which has an effect or an area.

The only reason's (outside of character concept) that I'd choose magic missile are: 
1 Range
2 it's good to have a backup power that only targets one square so that you don't hit your buddies every round.

Cloud of Daggers fits with point 2.

And in case it crossed your mind, Expanded Spellbook isn't as great as you think. Long rests typically come about too infrequently to make being able to swap powers useful.


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## AbdulAlhazred

Zustiur said:


> As AbdulAlhazred mentioned, you really don't need to worry about damage.
> With the party you outlined, damage is taken care of. As you've chosen to play a controller, you really need to focus on what a controller _does._
> So my advice is forget damage only spells. Go with anything which has an effect or an area.
> 
> The only reason's (outside of character concept) that I'd choose magic missile are:
> 1 Range
> 2 it's good to have a backup power that only targets one square so that you don't hit your buddies every round.
> 
> Cloud of Daggers fits with point 2.
> 
> And in case it crossed your mind, Expanded Spellbook isn't as great as you think. Long rests typically come about too infrequently to make being able to swap powers useful.




Yeah, CoD is in many ways as good a choice as MM. The range is adequate for 95% of cases and the effect can come in handy now and then at low levels or for that oddball situation where its really worth a standard action to make sure a minion dies. However MM will be pretty good in those situations as well, so its kind of a tossup. Neither one would be my first choice if I had AP available.

Expanded Spellbook CAN be a good option for a Wizard who is geared towards being a super utility caster, but I wouldn't pick it up until higher levels at best. If I were building that sort of character specifically though I would probably go with INT/WIS human staff build and toss some points into CHA as my 3rd stat. That gives you a more useful skill mix and lets you really maximize ritual casting utility while still allowing for good control. I think I'd still pick pretty much the same spell load out with that build though, but I might consider TWave to be a better choice of 2nd at-will after Scorching Burst in that case. 

Overall PHB1-only wizard is pretty constraining. Of all the PHB1 classes wizard really gained by far the most from its power book and even just having items from AV1 and some of the PHB2 feats and MC options really helped a lot. I'd certainly be lobbying my DM hard to at least consider allowing that material into the game at some point, even if just to provide existing PCs with a few new options. The first group I set up was of course PHB1 only, but even they've benefited a LOT from being able to pick up a few things here and there out of the newer books.


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## GakToid

We've discussed as a group allowing other books and the consensus is that people are content with PHB only. We'll see if that continues as we gain levels.

So, here's what I've come up with so far.

race: human or eladrin
class: wizard
implement: *unknown*

minimum ability scores:
Str 8
Con 10
Dex 13
Int 16+2 = 18
Wis 12
Cha 12

Extra points will go into con/dex/wis depending on implement.

powers
at-will: cloud of daggers, (scorching burst for human), thunderwave
level 1 encounter: chill strike
level 1 daily: flaming sphere, sleep
level 2 utility: expeditious retreat, shield
level 3 encounter: color spray
level 5 daily: stinking cloud, web
level 6 utility: dimension door (levitate for eladrin), wall of fog
level 7 encounter: winter's wrath
level 9 daily: ice storm, wall of fire
level 10 utility: arcane gate, blur

feats
level 1: Warrior of the Wild
human: Human Perseverance
level 2: Armor Proficiency (leather)
level 4: Improved Initiative
level 6: Action Surge/????
level 8: ????
level 10: ????

I'm not going to worry about paragon until we're level 8 or so.

If I go eladrin, I'll probably pick up Eladrin Solder and Weapon Focus(longsword) and then Wizard of the Spiral Tower.
If I go human, I'm not sure which path I'll take. Possibly Spellstorm.

-Gak Toid


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## Cross

Re: PHB 1 - I'm actually the DM in question for Gak Toid, and we did talk it over.  Right now, we're sticking with the basics primarily because we're going to be rotating through 2-3 DMs, most of which don't have all the books.  While the Character Builder goes a long way toward helping with that, there are things in the books that the basic class/item/race descriptions just don't cover, and that I need to know about before I'm willing to open the floodgates.  

And yes, my paranoia meter starts pinging every time we start bringing in new items or powers, but some of that is holdover from 3.5 splatbooks, so it's probably not justified anymore. 8)

-Cross


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## Turtlejay

Cross - It is *somewhat* justified.  Perhaps you could just have your players run any non-core choices by you?  That might be a bit too much work, but at least it opens things up a little bit.

Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong with running a PHB only game, if everyone is on the same page and having fun.

Gak Toid - Color Spray is on my list of powers not to take.  I took it once, early on.  It is a trap.  Not being enemies only, and in such a large area, means you will struggle to find useful times to throw it out there.  Since it is an encounter power, you will struggle constantly to do so.  My opinion, anyways.  If you can't tell, I am hugely biased towards Fire Shroud.

As for implement choice. . .While the orb is IMO the best one in the PHB, it doesn't really blossom until you can use it more often, and that means having more than one or two (save ends) powers.  That is not until Paragon, usually.  You can afford to take Staff or Wand, and then feat to gain Orb at Paragon.  Wand is useful if you have a great single target power to use it on, or at the very least a multi target with a good effect.  Staff is all around good, since we all like higher defenses.  A wizard with good starting Int, Leather Armor, and the Staff, will be a tough nut to crack.  In the end, though, this is a play style choice.  Will you be in a position where your defenses will need to be high often enough to warrant taking the Staff class feature?  Will you have any single target effects that you would like to ensure hit?

Also, keep in mind that with the wand, if you want to increase its effectiveness, you are pumping a stat that does little else for you.  It shares a defense with Int, and you are not expected to have Dex skills trained like some of the martial classes in your party.

Jay


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## AbdulAlhazred

No, I think paranoia is largely not required with 4e expansions and power books. Not that there is literally NO increase in power with new books but its very slight and the main effect is a LOT more build choices. Martial Power and AV1 did introduce some material that was a bit OP, but they did a good job of errata on it. PHB has a pretty limited selection of items sadly too, so AV1 is a really big plus to have. OTOH there are perfectly good reasons to want to stick to the core books, just don't hobble your game in the process. I know my players started to feel a bit constrained until a couple more books came out.

My views on the various implements may be a bit different than most, but I tend to look at things more from a perspective of tactical principles vs individual numbers.

Staff of Defense: This is the weakest of all the implements. It is purely defensive. Defense doesn't help you wrest control of a fight and win. Its not a bad thing on its own, but it has the least overall effectiveness on the average. Really only useful for a wizard that is going to go up front and blast away with close spells.

Wand of Accuracy: Pure offense. From a straight conceptual standpoint this is the strongest. It is untrue that it is only good for single target spells. All spells need to hit and there will OFTEN be a key enemy you want to make sure you hit even when the spell is an area effect. The dex/int overlap thing IS non-ideal but even having a 14 dex and not boosting it ever again is fine, +2 is +2 regardless of if you're level 1 or level 30. In fact its when its hardest to hit that pluses are worth the most.

Orb of Imposition: This one is harder to rate. OoI obviously is attractive in terms of "locking down" monsters, but that is NOT its only use. Just imposing a save penalty on almost any condition when that condition is hampering the enemy or extending a spell effect by a round when it is giving effective battlefield control is golden. Its quite easy to argue this is the best IM, though Wand of Accuracy does give it a run for its money. In many ways they are doing largely the same thing.

Given the good melee power of your party I just don't see Staff as a particularly good choice.

I personally think you're focusing too much on damage output with your spell load too. Even with doing the most possible damage you can do a wizard does poor damage on the whole. People that have played "striker wizards" have been pretty uniformly disappointed in the result. At least take one of Scorching Burst or Icy Terrain. TWave you will really just basically never use from experience in this type of party. You just can't get in there with it and pushing a few enemies back a couple squares really isn't much control. Your going to find basically your only at-will use choice is CoD (or SB if you're human) 99% of the time. Same with Icy Rays vs Fire Shroud. FS looks nice in theory and you'll use it a fair amount, but the damage you can do is frankly not that impressive. Icy Rays will do less damage but when you need a monster to stand still, which happens a good bit you'll be thankful for it. Plus OoI or WoA will work well with it.

At least do yourself the favor of taking ONE real control spell. Things do get better at 5th when you can roll out Big Stinky since it uniquely combines a nice control aspect with a lot of damage.

Level 7 is a good one to use to pick up a pure damage spell. Winter's Wrath is pretty marginal so you might as well pick up something like Fire Burst or Lightning bolt. Level 9 is pretty much a shoe in for Wall of Fire, though Ice Storm isn't bad. WoF plus Spectral Ram = baaaaad wizard!


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## UngeheuerLich

just some notes on your build:

- Eladrin soldier and wepon fokus don´t stack

- wis and charisma that high is fine for RP and skills but not so defensively.

- your constitution could be higher even when you are not taking staff as implementsince it affects hp, surges and fort defense. (not so important if you make sure you dont get into melee that often.

- dexterity is not so bad for a wizard, it affects some nice skills (maybe stealth with eladrin feature) and it allows for using a ranged weapon as a basic attack and most important: very high initiative which is more important than hitting sometimes. You also don´t need to improve dexterity at all! a +3 bonus is still really good, even at high levels. So you can afford to start with a 16, but bump wisdom to make second implement orb worthwhile at paragon.

abdul you ninjad me^^

i just have to read something and maybe i will have a funny build soon^^

too bad... doesn´t work 

here is a build with your selected spells and spells and trying get as much out of point buy as possible. (but putting points in charisma instead of constitution as you had in your build, which comes in handy for spell focus and at level 16 against minions at least)

You could take shield proficiency if you see that AC is an issue instead of eladrin soldier or blade opportunity or alertness. I chose blade opportunity and a reasonable stregth to make the choice of longsword worthwhile before paragon tier. I don´t like a shield for style reasons. Also toughness and durable could be good substitutes for blade opportunity or alertness if hp or surges are an issue.

here is what i have:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Soveliss, level 11
Eladrin, Wizard, Wizard of the Spiral Tower
Build: War Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Wand of Accuracy
Second Implement: Orb of Imposition
Corellon's Implement: Wand
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 21, Wis 14, Cha 13.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 12.

AC: 25 Fort: 19 Reflex: 22 Will: 22
HP: 61 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 15
TRAINED SKILLS
Perception +12, Arcana +17, Nature +12, Insight +12, Dungeoneering +12, Stealth +14
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Endurance +7, Heal +7, History +12, Intimidate +6, Religion +10, Streetwise +6, Thievery +9, Athletics +7
FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Warrior of the Wild
Level 2: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 4: Improved Initiative
Level 6: Eladrin Soldier
Level 8: Blade Opportunist
Level 10: Alertness (retrained to Spell Focus at Level 11)
Level 11: Second Implement
POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Cloud of Daggers
Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Wizard encounter 1: Chill Strike
Wizard daily 1: Flaming Sphere
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Sleep
Wizard utility 2: Shield
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Expeditious Retreat
Wizard encounter 3: Color Spray
Wizard daily 5: Stinking Cloud
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Web
Wizard utility 6: Levitate
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Wall of Fog
Wizard encounter 7: Winter's Wrath
Wizard daily 9: Ice Storm
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Wall of Fire
Wizard utility 10: Arcane Gate
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Blur
ITEMS
Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Magic Longsword +3, Sunleaf Leather Armor +3, Cloak of Survival +2, Orb of Sanguinary Repercussions +2, Gloves of Piercing (heroic tier)
RITUALS
Tenser's Floating Disk, Magic Circle, Comprehend Language, Make Whole, Detect Object
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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## AbdulAlhazred

hehe, yeah, its hard to come up with variant wizard builds with only PHB. You really need a bigger feat selection. With PHB2 feats available you can open up the longsword as a real weapon or with dragon feats get staff fighting and start to get into some decent melee builds, but not so much with just PHB. You can do the Iron Mage thing, sort of, but its fairly limited. Really your choices come down to which PP to choose and whether or not to dump everything but INT/WIS or spread your stats around and do a longer term build and take Wand first.


----------



## UngeheuerLich

I don´t think its so bad actually.

With abilities spread you can take elemental feats and such things. But since he wants eladrin soldier earlier, he should also take blade opportunist for those times he actually has a use for the sword. 

Edit to the build: Maybe it would be a wiser choice to have corellons implement orb instead of wand if you leveled up the wizard because you won´t have to get an orb and can use your old wand


----------



## AbdulAlhazred

Well, if he's going to seriously pursue the orb path later on then he probably really will need a real orb, or two. I guess there would be a few ways to skin that cat but it doesn't matter much in terms of what he picks to start with. Either of the two implements will be handy right away.


----------



## MadLordOfMilk

Cross said:


> Re: PHB 1 - I'm actually the DM in question for Gak Toid, and we did talk it over.  Right now, we're sticking with the basics primarily because we're going to be rotating through 2-3 DMs, most of which don't have all the books.  While the Character Builder goes a long way toward helping with that, there are things in the books that the basic class/item/race descriptions just don't cover, and that I need to know about before I'm willing to open the floodgates.
> 
> And yes, my paranoia meter starts pinging every time we start bringing in new items or powers, but some of that is holdover from 3.5 splatbooks, so it's probably not justified anymore. 8)
> 
> -Cross



As a warning from one DM to another, and from someone whose first 4e character was a wizard:

4e combats should be built differently from 3e/3.5e. Having a couple stronger monsters as opposed to several lesser ones makes a huge difference in the effectiveness of a Wizard. It can be frustrating to constantly fight combats with 1-3 monsters when you specialize in area spells. I'm not saying don't have smaller combats, but make sure to vary things up 

With Arcane Power, this is less of a potential problem (PLENTY of single-target control options, especially the illusion stuff) but it's still there.


----------



## GakToid

For reference, here's the list of heroic powers in the PHB that the orb can be applied to:

cloud of daggers*
ray of frost
acid arrow (daily)
sleep (daily)*
fire shroud (encounter)*
web (daily)*
ice storm (daily)*
lightning serpent (daily)

* powers I'm considering

-Gak Toid


----------



## GakToid

I've decided I'm making this too complicated. I can role play the ranger bit. Back to my original character:



> Race: Human
> Class: Wizard
> Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition
> 
> Ability Scores, with racial adjustments:
> Str 8 (-1)
> Con 12 (+1)
> Dex 10 (+0)
> Int 16+2 = 18 (+4)
> Wis 16 (+3)
> Cha 12 (+1)
> 
> powers
> at-will: cloud of daggers, scorching burst, thunderwave
> level 1 encounter: icy terrain (chill strike?)
> level 1 daily: flaming sphere, sleep (freezing cloud?)
> level 2 utility: expeditious retreat, shield
> level 3 encounter: icy rays (color spray?) (fire shroud?)
> level 5 daily: stinking cloud, web
> level 6 utility: dimension door, wall of fog
> level 7 encounter: winter's wrath
> level 9 daily: ice storm, wall of fire
> level 10 utility: arcane gate, blur
> 
> feats
> level 1: Action Surge
> human: Human Perseverance
> level 2: Armor Proficiency (leather)
> level 4: Improved Initiative
> level 6: ????
> level 8: ????
> level 10: ????
> 
> rituals
> level 1: animal messenger, comprehend language, make whole
> level 5: enchant magic item, ????




-Gak Toid


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## MadLordOfMilk

The original character concept should work fine 

Worse case, ask (beg?) the DM to let you reroll the same character with a new build because you realize the one you chose didn't really fit the concept you were aiming for 

General advice from me still screams: "FOR THE LOVE OF [insert deity of choice here], PICK A NON-KNOWLEDGE SKILL" but that's really a matter or preference. I just felt like I made a mistake with that when I first started playing 4e.


----------



## Danceofmasks

You already have your build, and it's nice enough.
Personally, I'm starting to really like the staff wizard ('cos I've been playing one recently).
My lv 27 orbizard's game wrapped up, so now I'm playing another wizard.
(I think I have a wizard problem)

Anyhow, consider my idiotic build ... a 1 trick pony
(I'm taking out all non PH stuff)

Tiefling staff wizard, lotsa int, other stats more or less irrelevant (i.e. consider more int. if in doubt, get more int. really, more int).
Hellfire Blood
Scorching Burst, Burning Hands, Flaming Sphere, Fire Shroud
Gloves of piercing (for those rare encounters that is full of fire resistant foes)

Use whatever magical implement you can get your hands on. Higher plus is better than any powers or properties.
Nonmagical staff is good enough to get your class features from ('cos they don't require you to attack with it)
There are, of course, brokenly powerful staffs out there ... but they're in adventurer's vault, yo.

Backup plan: uhh ... umm ... Magic Missile the darkness?


----------



## tiornys

Before you give up on Magic Missile entirely, it's worth checking out the Warlord's potential to grant basic attacks.  Warlords in general are excellent at this, but the PHB only Inspiring Warlord might not have much at all.  If it does grant a reasonable number of basics, some of which you could benefit from, then it might be worth having (or retraining into) Magic Missile.  That's pretty much the only reason I'd recommend it, though.

t~


----------



## KarinsDad

AbdulAlhazred said:


> No, I think paranoia is largely not required with 4e expansions and power books. Not that there is literally NO increase in power with new books but its very slight and the main effect is a LOT more build choices.




I have to totally disagree with this. I think the expansion books add a considerable amount of power. Most of it is in new classes, but a lot is in feats, powers, and items.

As a simple example, how many Wizards now take Phantom Bolt or Illusory Ambush instead of Cloud of Daggers? They target Will and just generally help out the party more.

A single feat, power, or item might not make a big difference, but the cumulative effect of minor gains by multiple feats, powers, and items make a big difference.


----------



## AbdulAlhazred

I think your original build is pretty solid Gak. You'll have options for most situations and a solid ability to disrupt the other team's game plan. It should work out fine.


----------



## UngeheuerLich

I disagree with KarinsDad. There is no considerable power creep.


----------



## Destil

No, there's *some* power creep, but it's really more like option creep for most things. With just the PHB there's often a clearly 'best' option, and the books just give you generally more options in line with it, but nothing really better. Oppertunity costs keep power level pretty similar.

The exception is feats and magic items, because these were both fairly week in PHB1 and there's no way you'd be able to fill all the slots with the best ones.


----------



## Danceofmasks

Power creep is there .. but mainly with borked unintended combos.
"I can impose a -16 on saves at mid paragon" was a significant issue, for instance .. bad enough for errata to get slapped on a few items.


----------



## DracoSuave

Plus, with the modularity of D&D4, you can consider individual elements a lot easier than 3e.  In 3e, you'd have to look at the entire system surrounding an option, and try to figure out if the option or the system was broken... big headache.  In 4e, everything using the same mechanic makes eyeballing broken options a lot easier.


----------



## AbdulAlhazred

Yeah, its usually easy to see what a problem is and mostly not too hard to fix them. The whole save penalty "orb locking" thing is probably about the thorniest issue in the game and the only reason its not trivial to fix is that REALLY fixing it means gutting a pretty interesting wizard build. Normally problems are more like "Bloodclaw weapons pump out too much damage", well duh, nerf them...


----------



## Danceofmasks

No, orbizards work well enough without the ability to stack several items together.
Seriously.

My wizard had -16 save penalty lock at level 17, and he started off with only 13 wis.
That's simply too much.

Spell focus + wis bonus + *one* item is just about as much as the game can take before it becomes overpowered.


----------



## AbdulAlhazred

Danceofmasks said:


> No, orbizards work well enough without the ability to stack several items together.
> Seriously.
> 
> My wizard had -16 save penalty lock at level 17, and he started off with only 13 wis.
> That's simply too much.
> 
> Spell focus + wis bonus + *one* item is just about as much as the game can take before it becomes overpowered.




There are SO many ways to get to a high penalty though that it needs a deep fix. Disallowing stacking of save penalties is too much because even dropping a -5 on solos is not really decisive enough. The build really should have focused on meta-magic more and save penalties less. The "extend a spell effect" option of OoI is actually pretty interesting and handy, but by itself its a bit limited for the defining mechanic of a build. There needs to be a bit bigger rearranging of things with the orbizard to both deal with stunlock and make it an interesting option. Though honestly as I've said I think mechanically its pretty good, at least at low levels.


----------



## Danceofmasks

But .... isn't what you're describing = power creep?

I.e. when more options become available, the effect becomes progressively stronger, until it gets borked.

Orbizard was/is a good idea. Power creep made it bad.


----------



## AbdulAlhazred

Danceofmasks said:


> But .... isn't what you're describing = power creep?
> 
> I.e. when more options become available, the effect becomes progressively stronger, until it gets borked.
> 
> Orbizard was/is a good idea. Power creep made it bad.




No, because it was broken from day one. You don't need anything but the PHB to make an epic stun locking orbizard. At worst its just there are now multiple paths to doing the same thing and if your DM is willing to gift you with all the right items at the very lowest level they become available you can be there now in early to mid paragon level. Also its an odd kind of "power creep". Orb wizard is exactly as strong as it was on day one, there are now just 5 ways to stack it up to get there. On top of that there is the definitively broken "Orb of Inescapable Consequences" which DOES make it "more broken" but that's an issue of one single item that you simply toss from your game (and its one of very few).

There are also more than one type of power creep. Straight up power creep is the old "I can get a higher to-hit bonus after book X" kind of creep. That really largely doesn't exist in 4e. The expertise feats being the exception but one that applies uniformly to all PCs (almost) and was obviously intended to be a power boost from the start. 

The other kind of power creep is "option creep" where the more good options exist the more you'll take and the more power you have in some sense. That really is simply inevitable. You literally cannot put out a new book and not have extra options that logically need to be on roughly a par with the existing options. If you want to never have option creep then you better just not ever play in a system that publishes ANY supplements. I also don't think this is legitimate to call power creep at all. Its more accurate to say that 4e core is not a totally complete system. Its only with the PHB2, AV1, and the first (now finished) round of Power books that the system is really complete and at its DESIGNED level of power for PCs. In other words a PHB only group is a tad underpowered really. 

Power creep is when things were great and they got worse as stuff was added. We're not seeing that with 4e.  The wizard is the poster child for this. PHB wizards are OK and playable but pretty limited and a bit under powered. PHB STR Paladin is an even more blatant example. These two classes really cannot be considered complete WITHOUT their respective splatbooks.


----------



## Danceofmasks

But it's not as powerful as it was on day 1.

On day 1, you can get that -16 to saves at high epic levels, by picking a +wis race, and thereby having a less-than-optimum attack/damage/ac/reflex score.

I'll say it again. My wizard started with 13 wis, and could impose a -16 save penalty at level 17.

That's "bigger bonus after book X" if there ever was one.

Another item for you here: Orb of Karmic Resonance
It's borked because its power is *not level dependent*.
So ... a level 23 *dex* wizard could carry around several level 13 versions, for that one encounter per day when you need to string together 3 auto-save-fails on the solo.

Yeah.


----------



## AbdulAlhazred

Danceofmasks said:


> But it's not as powerful as it was on day 1.
> 
> On day 1, you can get that -16 to saves at high epic levels, by picking a +wis race, and thereby having a less-than-optimum attack/damage/ac/reflex score.
> 
> I'll say it again. My wizard started with 13 wis, and could impose a -16 save penalty at level 17.
> 
> That's "bigger bonus after book X" if there ever was one.
> 
> Another item for you here: Orb of Karmic Resonance
> It's borked because its power is *not level dependent*.
> So ... a level 23 *dex* wizard could carry around several level 13 versions, for that one encounter per day when you need to string together 3 auto-save-fails on the solo.
> 
> Yeah.




Well, I'm not sure where you're getting -16 at level 17 without an appreciable wisdom bonus from. 

But the main point I made I think got lost in there somehow. The EFFECT of a save penalty is exactly the same as it was the day PHB was printed. If you stunlock someone today its the same effect as if you stunlocked them 18 months ago. There is no increase in power of the effect. Its just an easier effect to get. It was broken then and its broken now. Honestly on the day that read the PHB fresh out of the store and got to "Orb of Imposition" I flagged it as a problematic mechanic. Imposed penalties of that kind (where its a universal action penalty) is just bad system design to start with. Its not an issue of power creep, its an issue of a FUNDAMENTALLY bad design decision. Save penalties should NEVER have stacked and the orbizard should have been built with that in mind from day one and given a method of action that didn't rely on a broken game mechanic. Its kind of worthless to call it power creep. Where is it creeping up from? Infinity to more infinity? lol.


----------



## Danceofmasks

I think you're missing the point.

Your argument:
Oh, yeah, PCs in 3.5e could always do instant kill effects. Not power creep.

Reality:
If there were an instant kill effect at level 3, it'd be retarded.

'cos that's power creep.
It's not creeping from infinity to infinity, 'cos level 28 is where orcus can reduce you to 0 hp with a look, whilst permalock at paragon levels is retarded.


----------



## AbdulAlhazred

Danceofmasks said:


> I think you're missing the point.
> 
> Your argument:
> Oh, yeah, PCs in 3.5e could always do instant kill effects. Not power creep.
> 
> Reality:
> If there were an instant kill effect at level 3, it'd be retarded.
> 
> 'cos that's power creep.
> It's not creeping from infinity to infinity, 'cos level 28 is where orcus can reduce you to 0 hp with a look, whilst permalock at paragon levels is retarded.




Huh? Where did 3.5e come into this? 

My argument is simply that no new capability was created. stunlock existed in PHB-only. It existed after AV1 (which is really 95% of what you'd be complaining about here). You can do it about 5-6 levels earlier than you could before. OTOH the real issue wasn't even total guaranteed stunlock, it was the fact that if ANY level of orbizard with a WIS 20 hits ANY key monster with say sleep then its down to a 50/50 shot the monster is knocked down for a while. Once you hit even 8th level in just PHB those odds are high enough to be a serious problem for the DM's encounter design because any time your solo is totally out of action for 2-3 rounds the encounter is shot. There are numerous things wrong with that picture and  OoI is only one of them. Its an aspect of the game that has broken mechanics. Its worthless to complain there is power creep related to it when it was seriously broken IN THE FIRST BOOK.

In any case the whole debate is fairly pointless and off topic. If players are willing to not be abusive with their orb builds or are willing to run a fairly nerfed orb wizard via house rules (which can still be interesting) then all the stuff in AV1 really doesn't do anything worth getting worked up about.


----------



## Nifft

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Yeah, CoD is in many ways as good a choice as MM. The range is adequate for 95% of cases and the effect can come in handy now and then at low levels or for that oddball situation where its really worth a standard action to make sure a minion dies. However MM will be pretty good in those situations as well, so its kind of a tossup. Neither one would be my first choice if I had AP available.



 That percentage may be accurate for your games, Mad Arab, but for other people the relevant question ought to be: *do you expect to engage enemies at ranges 11-20*? If they're not sure, they can ask themselves:
- Can my whole party engage in long-range archery? If so, I should make myself able to participate.
- Am I the only one able to hit things at that range? If so, is it a big deal -- in other words, are the other party members low-mobility or high-mobility? If they're low-mobility and you're the only one able to hit range 11-20, then it may be useful to do so.
- Is there a real archer in the party? If you have exactly one archery Ranger, you may want to just let him handle the 11-40 range (which includes the 11-20 range).

Cloud of Daggers asks these questions:
- Is my Wisdom bonus +2 or higher? If yes, this power is as good as MM on a hit, and it was always better on a miss.
- Do I have anything else to use my Orb class feature with yet? The first (save ends) Encounter power in the PHB is at 3rd level. It sucks to have a class feature you can't use.



AbdulAlhazred said:


> Expanded Spellbook CAN be a good option for a Wizard who is geared towards being a super utility caster



 If Expanded Spellbook gave you more Utility powers, it wouldn't suck. As written, though, it does suck.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## KarinsDad

UngeheuerLich said:


> I disagree with KarinsDad. There is no considerable power creep.




You must not be looking at all of the different ways to get a skill into the stratosphere.

Or, ways to make an Orb Wizard nearly unstoppable against a solo.

Or, the fact that a Battlerage Fighter is almost immune to minion attacks.

Or the sheer number of ways of getting conditional bonuses to hit. The PHB had very few ways to get a bonus to hit.


It's Splatbook 101. The more splatbooks a DM allows, the more ways there are to abuse the system. It is, basically, inevitable.

Granted, WotC is cleaning up some of it with errata, but there are still a lot of dpr builds out there that are easily broken that did not exist with just the PHB.

And to me, the way for a DM to fix it is to disallow certain game elements. Most of these are magic items, a few are feats.


----------



## Nifft

KarinsDad said:


> You must not be looking at all of the different ways to get a skill into the stratosphere.



 I'm ignorant of this. Have an example to share?



KarinsDad said:


> Or, ways to make an Orb Wizard nearly unstoppable against a solo.



 This was broken from day 1. It remains broken. Not seeing the creep.



KarinsDad said:


> Or, the fact that a Battlerage Fighter is almost immune to minion attacks.



 This got fixed in the errata updates.



KarinsDad said:


> Or the sheer number of ways of getting conditional bonuses to hit. The PHB had very few ways to get a bonus to hit.



 Those are mostly typed bonuses, unless I'm missing something.

- - -

Expertise feats are clearly an example of something bad, but I don't know if I'd call that bad thing "power creep". More like failure to decide how they wanted combat math to work across tiers.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## KarinsDad

Nifft said:


> I'm ignorant of this. Have an example to share?




As one example:

PHB Stealth:

+5 Trained
+3 feat Skill Focus
+2 power Elven Boots (once per encounter)
+1 to +6 item Elven Cloak or +2 Ring of Invisibility


So, the PHB was limited to +14 (+16 sometimes, which is still very high in a D20 system).


+2 background (background skill boosts did not exist with just the PHB)

+5 unnamed Rat Form Armor (once per day, but still)

+2 to +6 item Boots of Stealth, or +5 Lightstep Slippers, +3 to +6 Shadowform Armor, +1 to +6 Sylvan Armor, etc., etc., etc. The advantage here is that the PC is not forced to use Elven Boots and Cloak, but can mix and match and get other item selection options.

Trickster's Mask (2 rolls instead of 1, ~equal to +3, plus once per day auto-20)

Chameleon Ring (no need for cover or concealment once per day)

+2 power Battlestandard of Shadow

+2 racial Group Stealth

+5 feat Stalking Panther form (druid only)

+5 feat Camouflage (ranger only)

unnamed Secure Encampment (+wis mod during extended rest)


This does not include powers or paragon path/epic destiny abilities. For example, Panther Ancestors can eventually be as high as +8 or even +10 unnamed. Or the number of ways Invisibility can be added now. Or feats like One With Shadow. Plus there are a lot of ways now to acquire concealment.

Also, I only looked in Martial Power, Adventure's Vault, and PHB II. I'm sure there are more elsewhere. Without even cracking open another book, I remember that familiars often give a +2 unnamed bonus to some skills.


And this is only one skill. Granted, some of this stuff is conditional and some of it is not just item based, but the fact remains that people can take these and boost their Stealth (or many other skills) pretty darn high. Higher than what the PHB alone allowed.


Where there only used to be a few ways to acquire a decent stealth skill in the PHB, now there are many ways and it can be higher than just with PHB rules. It's also not just the final bonus to the skill, but all of the associated synergies as well.


----------



## AbdulAlhazred

@KD

First of all as Nifft and I have stated before Orb Wizard was ALWAYS broken. It was always TOTALLY broken, not even a little broken. Yeah, there are more ways to do the brokenness in AV1 and some feats can be combined with various things to increase your to-hit and OoIC does make it auto-hit once a day but basically infinitely broken things don't really get more broken and more ways to do the same thing =/= power creep.

BRV fighter WAS in some people's opinions OP at low levels. Epic tier and even paragon tier BRV actually gets pretty lackluster. It was more of a dependency on the situation as you could easily build encounters that made a BRV fighter practically worthless. However it was a serious DM inconvenience that it was easy to create a character that could steamroller a lot of melee centric encounters. So it was fixed. It is thoroughly fixed at this point and is now in some ways actually BETTER at higher levels than it was before. It certainly plays better.

As for skill bonuses... Generally speaking once you hit a certain point with a skill bonus its pretty pointless to jack it up even further, although there are some exceptions specific to certain builds and in general a really outrageous Arcana skill bonus can be justified for some characters. Stealth beyond +16 (actually you CAN do better with just PHB but you got the major bonuses) does what for you? At that point you're at least into paragon and so you have another +6 or more (and even higher with ability score boosts) from level which means you're into the +20's range. There is simply no low paragon tier creature that is going to see you EVER unless it rolls 17+ and you get a 1. Yup you can jack that even further using AV1 and PHB2 stuff but its pointless. Even the most stealth focused character imaginable would be idiotic to burn more feats and valuable items on a higher bonus. For all practical purposes you are just infinitely stealthy. Infinity +N is still infinity.

The same is pretty much true for the other skills. Most of them will only ever be used either vs standard DCs where anything past a +10 static bonus is almost guaranteed success or in a skill challenge where again the DCs are standard. There are a few cases where you could use them in combat opposed and then you might gain some marginal extra utility from certain ones but you're way past the point of diminishing returns even with what's available in the PHB.

As far as situational feats and even to a certain extent static bonuses from feats and items on attack/damage rolls the vast consensus is they undershot in the PHB and the increases here were yes in a sense you could say "power creep" but more like "this is the way it was intended". They were just obviously conservative starting out while they got some experience with the system. It would have been a LOT worse to have dumped lots of extra bonuses into the core rules from day one when they had a lot more limited experience with the system. 

The few things that really did cross the line like Bloodclaw and Reckless have been nerfed down to acceptable levels. Yes high level characters CAN stack up a pretty impressive damage output, but its hard to say that's bad. There were ways to do it even with PHB1 (there was a ranger build that was doing like 200 point hits at level 30 with just PHB stuff). Considering at that level your opponents have often 1000+ hit points, not really a big problem. With ALL the books and fully decked out as the errata stands now a similar build might do maybe 250 damage on a hit and there are a couple more ways to repeat the attack than there were before. 

There are still one or two things that I think will cause problems like OoIC and IMHO the Astral Seal and whatnot but they're pretty few and far between and don't blow the doors off things. Most PCs are going to be just a BIT more effective at dealing damage and have some cool new options, but they aren't game breaking or really way out of line with what was possible to start with. I'd call that "option creep" myself and while you might consider it bad it has a really nice upside in making the game more fun for the players.

And that's the final thing. The game is more fun for everyone with the various power books and PHB2 etc in the mix. PHB1 alone was OK, but play was a bit limited. There's no danger of melting your game down to use all the books. Certainly not even faintly close to what would happen if you did that in 3.x or 2e or 1e. Its just not comparable.


----------



## Danceofmasks

Well, then here's an exercise for you:

Hypothesis: Option creep, if options are more or less on par with each other, will result in diversification.

Sounds good, no?

Take 10 of your builds, say, at level 20.
Take a look at the feats and equipment.
Considering how many more options there are now, if they don't have _proportionally_ fewer choices in common than they did in times of nothing-but-PHB, then you have power creep.


----------



## Elric

Danceofmasks said:


> Well, then here's an exercise for you:
> 
> Hypothesis: Option creep, if options are more or less on par with each other, will result in diversification.
> 
> Sounds good, no?
> 
> Take 10 of your builds, say, at level 20.
> Take a look at the feats and equipment.
> Considering how many more options there are now, if they don't have _proportionally_ fewer choices in common than they did in times of nothing-but-PHB, then you have power creep.




While "an assortment of builds have more feats in common than they used to" might be a _sufficient _condition to indicate power creep, it doesn't seem even close to a _necessary_ condition.


----------



## Danceofmasks

Uhh, that's not what I said in the slightest.

What I actually said, is that 
IF you now have access to twice as many feats, you ought to have half as many feats in common.
IF you now have access to three times as many feats, you ought to have a third as many feats in common.


----------



## Elric

Danceofmasks said:


> Uhh, that's not what I said in the slightest.
> 
> What I actually said, is that
> IF you now have access to twice as many feats, you ought to have half as many feats in common.
> IF you now have access to three times as many feats, you ought to have a third as many feats in common.




Edit for clarity 
And if this is the case, then there isn't power creep?  If characters have more feats than this in common, it's an indication of power creep?  If characters have fewer feats than this in common, it's an indication of "power decay"?


----------



## Danceofmasks

No, I'm not trying to prove anything, hence I'm not using my own builds.

'cos *I* know for a fact my own builds actually have more feats in common than they used to ... and *I* know there's been a lot of power creep.
The number of power sources have increased. The number of classes available has multiplied.

Look, yet another character uses a fullblade.
Look, yet another spellcaster uses a staff of ruin.

No, what I'm asking is for Abdul or whomever wants to, who claims there's been NO power creep, to prove that they've been burying their heads in the sand.


----------



## Elric

Danceofmasks said:


> 'cos *I* know for a fact my own builds actually have more feats in common than they used to ... and *I* know there's been a lot of power creep.




I wouldn't take feats in common as a measure of "power creep."  Power creep on existing well-built characters is essentially inevitable.  As more material is released, the weakest existing abilities are replaced by stronger new abilities.  

It's obvious that power creep is happening with this kind of "within character comparison."  To get an idea of the extent of power creep, compare the strength of a well-built character with PHB-only to a well-built character of the same class [since otherwise this comparison could not be performed] built with the full range of published material.  It's substantial.


----------



## UngeheuerLich

I am still at the position i have. In 3.5 you could look at some books and throw them away because you got options so much better that it was retarded... (some FR books, exalted deeds thing, stacking of psionics and magic...)

I don´t consider the first 4 complete books very power creepy... but that could be because i am not willing to let rule masters destroy my game...

Stacking save penalties would actually be not so bad, if all those save penalties would only work on the first save or penalties from items don´t stack. Easy fix, really.

The only issue i have with 4th edition is the "say yes" mentality. During the game, say yes is the best advise, but when it comes to character building i just say no sometimes...

I don´t allow dragon content until i am sure it has the same standards as the books.

So until now, i see no considerable INTENDED power creep. Maybe an intended OPTION creep with slightly unintended  power creep. But WotC is willing to fix issues with errata.

I only consder it power creep if you make new option more powerful on purpose to sell more books (like trading cards which get stronger from edition to edition so that you always need to buy the next ones to be on par with the rest)


----------



## UngeheuerLich

@ Dance of Mask: I consider Adventurers Vault beeing right there from day 1. So there can be no power creep in Adventurers Vault...

also: the damage increase from greatsword to fullblade is very low (besides crits). Actually the most funny thing is that usually non-military blade users skip greatsword for fullblade. But then, they were not expected to use big swords from the beginning. 

When everything you do is taking DPR feats, than yes your choice is narrowed since some feats are better than others... but: in my builds i have very varied feats and i still can´t get all i want for some builds... and i don´t use dragon content...


----------



## AbdulAlhazred

UngeheuerLich said:


> @ Dance of Mask: I consider Adventurers Vault beeing right there from day 1. So there can be no power creep in Adventurers Vault...
> 
> also: the damage increase from greatsword to fullblade is very low (besides crits). Actually the most funny thing is that usually non-military blade users skip greatsword for fullblade. But then, they were not expected to use big swords from the beginning.
> 
> When everything you do is taking DPR feats, than yes your choice is narrowed since some feats are better than others... but: in my builds i have very varied feats and i still can´t get all i want for some builds... and i don´t use dragon content...




Yeah, its tempting to say that AV1 is practically core given the fact that it contains a lot of stuff that it is really hard to do without and seems to have established the baseline for what has followed. Technically its not core but playing without it entirely is pretty limiting. Considering it was the first supplement and was in the store practically from day one I actually find it kind of hard to even compare with PHB1 ONLY as there are very few people that have actually played that way.

It would be impossible to say that the AV1 superior weapons aren't better than the PHB military weapons but then again with only military weapons available the whole weapon proficiency mechanic was largely useless as an upgrade from longsword to bastard sword was not worth a feat. The only classes that would ever bother with it pre-AV1 were STR clerics grabbing bastard or great sword or an occasional character that wanted a bow or just plain wanted a specific weapon for RP reasons.

I really do not at all fathom your argument DancesWithMasks. How many options there are is different thing from power creep entirely. There are yes now a LOT more builds that are able to be as powerful as the best builds, but the best builds that you could make on day one are STILL right up there with any of them and not hugely different from what they were to start with. Maybe you weren't around charops at the start of 4e. There was plenty of wacky goodness/cheese there right from day one. 

And like I say, there WAS a slight shift in character baseline power, but it really was almost entirely a feature of AV1 and can best be considered a design decision. I guess you can call that power creep though personally it seems more like the game just settling into its groove to me.


----------



## Danceofmasks

So what you're saying is, there's been power creep, but you also call it a design feature?


----------



## KarinsDad

AbdulAlhazred said:


> As for skill bonuses... Generally speaking once you hit a certain point with a skill bonus its pretty pointless to jack it up even further, although there are some exceptions specific to certain builds and in general a really outrageous Arcana skill bonus can be justified for some characters. Stealth beyond +16 (actually you CAN do better with just PHB but you got the major bonuses) does what for you?




I just answered Nifft's question. It's possible to get very high skills because of the splat books. Whether they are needed or not is not relevant to whether they can be achieved or not.



AbdulAlhazred said:


> There is simply no low paragon tier creature that is going to see you EVER unless it rolls 17+ and you get a 1.




Your math is a bit off.

Rogue Level 11. Just starting to run into foes with Perception like a level 12 Guardian Naga at +13 or a Medusa Warrior at level 13 with +16.

Rogue has 5 level, 5 trained, 3 focus, 2 item, and 5 Dex for a total of +20. It has already cost him a feat.

Sure, he is better than either of these two monsters. But "it rolls 17+ and you get a 1"???

Hardly. If the monster rolls a 17, the Rogue still has to roll an 11 or an 8 respectively.

This is far from automatic. Even the less perceptive monster here (+13 vs. +20) notices the Rogue about 24% of the time. The more perceptive monster notices the PC about 36% of the time. And if the Rogue does not take Skill Focus, the more perceptive monster (only 2 levels higher) notices him almost half of the time. The stealthy normal Rogue PC gets noticed nearly half of the time with an item. What about less stealthy PCs???

And to get to automatic with opposed skills like Stealth, one has to have a +19 or +20 (depending on direction) advantage on your foe. But, some players will want to get as close to that as possible.


Ditto for monster checks (quite a few DC 35 checks at low epic that are not automatic).


----------



## Danceofmasks

Well, stealth is one of those checks that are on a heavily skewed probability curve when it comes to being detected.

Less of an issue when you're only opposed by passive perception, but if each PC has to roll stealth vs. each monster, the odds of being detected are pretty darn high unless you have a humungous bonus advantage.


----------



## Elric

KarinsDad said:


> And to get to automatic with opposed skills like Stealth, one has to have a +19 or +20 (depending on direction) advantage on your foe. But, some players will want to get as close to that as possible.




This is pretty much a waste, though.  Once the player is up +11 (and winning ties; or +12 and losing ties), he wins 91% of the opposed checks.  Finding +8 more so you always win has really run into diminishing returns.

Of course, if several enemies are trying to spot you at once and you only stay hidden if you beat all of their rolls, then returns to maximizing stealth diminish more slowly.

For a skill like Perception when you often use your passive score, returns to maximizing it diminish more sharply; being up by 10 Perception against opponent's Stealth guarantees success.


----------



## Danceofmasks

Yeah, but the problem is if multiple PCs have to roll vs multiple monsters across multiple rounds.
It's a case of *one* instance of detection = fail.


----------



## AbdulAlhazred

There's a difference between the system being filled out to what it was actually designed to be, largely accomplished in AV1 with some more important tweaks in PHB2. That's all really. Yeah, PCs have more options, but when you start looking at it carefully right now a LOT of those options are mutually exclusive or don't work well together. Expertise, Weapon Focus, and the paragon and epic weapon feats are very standard for weapon users but not all mandatory by any means. You just won't get EVERYTHING you could ever want because a lot of bread-n-butter feats and really good specialty feats have stat prereqs that make it hard to get them all (or impossible). Most of that was in place in PHB except Expertise (in all its forms).

The other feats are all situational or work on OAs or whatnot. There are quite a few good ones but again its hard to make them all useful on one character. Even without prereqs who's going to take a character with a tanked dex and grap Nimble Blade? Its one of the best situational feats out there, but not all rogues have it by far. So yes there are a few more situations where PCs can gain advantage and plenty of ways to combine that with items etc to do good stuff. Is that good stuff better than the old good stuff? Not really much. 

And again the better combos that started working with AV1? Yes, they were intended to set the power level the way they did (mostly). OK, its a power BOOST, but don't call it "creep". There's no way they could cram into the PHB all the stuff they wanted players to have and there were few really good builds. AV1 was needed. I only really see increased options in newer stuff and very little increases power overall. You can get a bonus for having a familiar, ok but you pay a feat for it, lol. Sure the bonus is pretty much what the feat is worth and you also get a familiar which gives you another rather circumstantial benefit. 

I'm just not losing sleep over this and the power level is not going up and up. There are only so many things one PC can benefit from. That's one of the good things about 4e. When it comes to powers and feats there's already more than enough. Unless you unleash a whopping feat its not going to be better than what I have already. 

Do watch Dragon stuff though, they seem to have a different standard over there. I'm cautious about allowing a lot of it, but then most players aren't begging for more choices. If anything the game is getting so sprawling now that even figuring out the perfect combo that will break things is beyond most players. And no system will totally withstand hardcore tweakers.


----------



## Danceofmasks

Yeah well ... sometimes you don't see problems just 'cos you don't want to see them.

4e is a robust system for the most part, and more so than 3e.

However, you *can* break games with access to single items.

Example:
Hi, I'm a level 20 cleric. Level 13 items are peanuts. I can make them in 1 hour, too (with some residuum or whatever).
I hit something with a level 5 daily. Rune of peace. It cannot attack (save ends)

Not broken, right? It'll just save in a turn or two, and that's the end of that.

Unless ... you MC'ed wizard and have 4 orbs of karmic resonance ...
That's approximately 8 rounds of not being able to attack.
By the time it manages to make a save, it's dead.

This isn't hardcore tweaking, this is a battle cleric + 1 item.


----------



## Elric

Danceofmasks said:


> Yeah, but the problem is if multiple PCs have to roll vs multiple monsters across multiple rounds.
> It's a case of *one* instance of detection = fail.




In these cases, though, the overall chance of success for the PCs is so low that unless the survival of the party is riding on every PC succeeding, it's not even worth taking feats to boost your party's chances of success.  From 2% to 2.5% isn't much of an increase.

Fortunately, the skill challenge mechanic ensures that if you have a "Stealth" skill challenge, only the stealthiest PC needs to roll


----------



## Danceofmasks

Yeah, which is yet another reason it doesn't work ...
'cos a skill challenge = an encounter. *You can't take 10*.

While a potential combat encounter isn't an encounter yet, so if your bonus is high enough, you can take 10 right by.

Me, I'm of the opinion stealth is only really useful to get a surprise round.
And to that end, you don't bother getting stealth-based feats ('cos feats are expensive) ... but items are cool. So is a stealth-boosting background and/or race.


----------



## KarinsDad

Nifft said:


> Those are mostly typed bonuses, unless I'm missing something.




Now that I have access to more of my books, I'll answer this one.

When 4E was first announced, there was a claim by WotC that there would be very few bonuses to hit due to the way that got out of hand in 3.5. There is a curve for 4E for most PCs versus most defenses of monsters they will run into at their level and bonuses to hit disrupt that curve. And for the most part, the PHB followed this.

Then, as an example, Martial Power came out and there are about a half dozen bonus to attack roll feats (more in PHB II, more in Arcane Powers, etc.). Granted, many of them are specific to a given class or given race and/or given condition, but they exist. There's about 50 feats that do this and many are untyped bonuses. PHB III is going to come out. How many more will exist?

And this does not include powers, items, or racial/class abilities.

Now granted, some of this might be in response to the "high level to hit" math bug. But, the various Expertise feats seem to handle this, so I'm not sure why there are so many others.


----------



## Nifft

KarinsDad said:


> As one example:
> 
> PHB Stealth:
> 
> +5 Trained
> +3 feat Skill Focus
> +2 power Elven Boots (once per encounter)
> +1 to +6 item Elven Cloak or +2 Ring of Invisibility



 Ah, I see what you mean. Okay, here's a better example than the new Item bonuses (which don't stack): the Tribal feat bonuses. +2 to a skill (including Stealth), +1 per ally who has the same feat, up to +5. So PCs in a party of 4 could each gain +5 Stealth over what the PHB had allowed.

Now that I recall that, there's one minor example of power creep regarding items: the new Tattoo slot. It's strictly power creep, since the new slot for the new item type gives goodies without taking anything away. (IMHO the items are pretty sweet, too. Some of them are like Paragon Path AP effects.)



KarinsDad said:


> Now that I have access to more of my books, I'll answer this one.
> 
> When 4E was first announced, there was a claim by WotC that there would be very few bonuses to hit due to the way that got out of hand in 3.5. There is a curve for 4E for most PCs versus most defenses of monsters they will run into at their level and bonuses to hit disrupt that curve. And for the most part, the PHB followed this.
> 
> Then, as an example, Martial Power came out and there are about a half dozen bonus to attack roll feats (more in PHB II, more in Arcane Powers, etc.). Granted, many of them are specific to a given class or given race and/or given condition, but they exist.



 I don't see them able to stack with each other, though, so I don't see the big deal. It's not conditional bonuses that are a problem IMHO, it's stacking bonuses.



KarinsDad said:


> There's about 50 feats that do this and many are untyped bonuses. PHB III is going to come out. How many more will exist?



 FUD is never a good argument.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## bganon

Nifft said:


> Now that I recall that, there's one minor example of power creep regarding items: the new Tattoo slot. It's strictly power creep, since the new slot for the new item type gives goodies without taking anything away. (IMHO the items are pretty sweet, too. Some of them are like Paragon Path AP effects.)




I agree with most of your post, but I don't think this is quite fair.  Tattoos are classified as wondrous items, which were already slotless.  In fact, because of the new "slot" they have a drawback that most wondrous items don't - you can have only one Tattoo.  And they still cost money, so it's not really giving new goodies if the DM follows normal treasure guidelines.  Your argument taken ad absurdum would imply that any new wondrous item is power creep, because every wondrous item can be carried by a character without dropping anything else.

If Tattoos are significantly better than most other wondrous items, then, yeah, that's some power creep.  This may in fact be true.  But it's not obvious to me that it is (I can't quite tell, wondrous items seem all over the map in power to me, and quite a few in the PH rather sucked).


----------



## Nifft

bganon said:


> I agree with most of your post, but I don't think this is quite fair.  Tattoos are classified as wondrous items, which were already slotless.  In fact, because of the new "slot" they have a drawback that most wondrous items don't - you can have only one Tattoo.  And they still cost money, so it's not really giving new goodies if the DM follows normal treasure guidelines.  Your argument taken ad absurdum would imply that any new wondrous item is power creep, because every wondrous item can be carried by a character without dropping anything else.
> 
> If Tattoos are significantly better than most other wondrous items, then, yeah, that's some power creep.  This may in fact be true.  But it's not obvious to me that it is (I can't quite tell, wondrous items seem all over the map in power to me, and quite a few in the PH rather sucked).



 It seems to me that they act more like slotted items, though.

Do other slotless, wondrous items have properties that kick in for free under combat conditions (e.g. spending an action point)? I don't recall any, but perhaps I've missed some?

If there are such items, then I'll happily retract my accusation of power creep. (IMHO 4e has been better about power creep so far, but it's still a matter for watchful concern.)

Thanks, -- N


----------



## Elric

bganon said:


> Your argument taken ad absurdum would imply that any new wondrous item is power creep, because every wondrous item can be carried by a character without dropping anything else.




Gold prices on items increase significantly faster than the benefits received.  To the extent that you can replicate bonuses using multiple items rather than a single item, you can get the same bonuses at a lower gold cost.  This is often limited by the limited number of slots you have, daily power limitations, and the fact that many bonuses don't stack (e.g., item bonuses or resistance).  

To the extent that you can stack benefits on top of each other and use multiple wondrous items to get around slot restrictions, you'll be able to achieve greater power at a lower gold cost.

Tatoos are one example.  Dragonshard Augments (EPG) are another.  However, the Solitaires (AV) were an early example of this as well.  It meaningfully increases character power to keep making items like these, regardless of whether the new ones in EPG and AV2 are better than AV1's slotless items.


----------



## KarinsDad

Nifft said:


> I don't see them able to stack with each other, though, so I don't see the big deal. It's not conditional bonuses that are a problem IMHO, it's stacking bonuses.




Conditional bonuses often stack.

Rites of Spirits' Blood: Your bonus to attack rolls from your Bloodhunt racial trait increases to +2.

Focused Wizardry: When you use an arcane burst or blast attack power and only one creature is within the area of effect, you gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll.

Spellseer Familiar: While your familiar is in its active state, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with arcane powers against targets adjacent to your familiar.


So sure, this only occurs against a bloodied foe, but it's still +5 to hit and fairly easy to arrange.


----------



## Nifft

KarinsDad said:


> Conditional bonuses often stack.
> 
> Rites of Spirits' Blood: Your bonus to attack rolls from your Bloodhunt racial trait increases to +2.
> 
> Focused Wizardry: When you use an arcane burst or blast attack power and only one creature is within the area of effect, you gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll.
> 
> Spellseer Familiar: While your familiar is in its active state, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with arcane powers against targets adjacent to your familiar.
> 
> 
> So sure, this only occurs against a bloodied foe, but it's still +5 to hit and fairly easy to arrange.



 I dunno, it seems like it might be non-trivial to get your Familiar adjacent, and yet catch only that one critter in the blast or burst. (Also, of course, catching only one critter in a blast or burst means you may be using a lower-damage power than you otherwise could have used.)

For example, Scorching Burst at +2 to attack is still worse at damaging a foe than Cloud of Daggers (assuming a +2 Wisdom).

Cheers, -- N


----------



## MadLordOfMilk

Regarding orb wizard: the only real sacrifice to get "unsaveable" effects in epic with just PHB was starting with 18 wis, which meant 16 int instead of an average 18. As an elf, you'd also have Elven Accuracy to slightly make up for this. 18 wis, boosted every opportunity, rises to a +8 by the end of epic. Throw in demigod and up it to a +9. Then throw in spell focus, and you just gave -11 to saves, making it unsaveable even on a 20 (unless nat20 always saves by your rules, in which case you don't even need 18wis).

The items just meant you could do it a lot earlier, and made it easier to get the extra 5 to counter the +5 bonus solos got.



tiornys said:


> Before you give up on Magic Missile entirely, it's worth checking out the Warlord's potential to grant basic attacks.  Warlords in general are excellent at this, but the PHB only Inspiring Warlord might not have much at all.  If it does grant a reasonable number of basics, some of which you could benefit from, then it might be worth having (or retraining into) Magic Missile.  That's pretty much the only reason I'd recommend it, though.
> 
> t~



I keep hearing this, yet despite having actually built several warlords, the only noteworthy use of basic attacks have all been basic melees in my experience. Could you give an example where Magic Missile could be used?


----------



## KarinsDad

Nifft said:


> I dunno, it seems like it might be non-trivial to get your Familiar adjacent, and yet catch only that one critter in the blast or burst. (Also, of course, catching only one critter in a blast or burst means you may be using a lower-damage power than you otherwise could have used.)




Spell Accuracy. Or the laymans method, attack one guy on one side of the fight. And getting your Familiar adjacent is merely a move action.



Nifft said:


> For example, Scorching Burst at +2 to attack is still worse at damaging a foe than Cloud of Daggers (assuming a +2 Wisdom).




Maybe so. But, Cloud of Dagger is limited to a single target. Scorching Burst can be used against multiple targets at +0 to +3, and +3 to +5 against a single target. Cloud of Daggers is still limited (in this example) to single target +1 to +3. This allows the Wizard to take a different single target attack that targets Will like Illusory Ambush or Phantom Bolt.

There are also examples with attack bonuses from paragon paths as well. And, the +2 single target area effect feat is not needed to still get +3.

And this is just one example. There are others.


----------



## Elric

MadLordOfMilk said:


> I keep hearing this, yet despite having actually built several warlords, the only noteworthy use of basic attacks have all been basic melees in my experience. Could you give an example where Magic Missile could be used?




Hail of Steel, by far the best level 17 Warlord encounter power around.  I think several Paragon powers (but few heroic ones) grant basic attacks as opposed to basic melee attacks.


----------



## Nifft

KarinsDad said:


> Spell Accuracy. Or the laymans method, attack one guy on one side of the fight. And getting your Familiar adjacent is merely a move action.



 Sure, but you could also have taken Skill Training (Stealth) and used that move action to Hide, granting your attack +2 via Combat Advantage.



KarinsDad said:


> +0 to +3, and +3 to +5 against a single target.



 You're double-counting here. The baseline for a Tiefling is +1 vs. bloodied targets. That's not power creep, that's just the core race.

But you do have a point, it's fairly easy to get the Bloodhunt bonus to stack. Sucks for Wizards, of course, since it's useless vs. Minions, but pretty sweet for a Sorcerer or Warlock.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Jhaelen

Danceofmasks said:


> Unless ... you MC'ed wizard and have 4 orbs of karmic resonance ...
> That's approximately 8 rounds of not being able to attack.
> By the time it manages to make a save, it's dead.
> 
> This isn't hardcore tweaking, this is a battle cleric + 1 item.



I've seen several other examples involving multiples of (low-level) items that end up being (too) powerful. I wonder if there should be some restriction regarding how often someone can be affected by the same item in a single encounter?


----------



## KarinsDad

Nifft said:


> Sure, but you could also have taken Skill Training (Stealth) and used that move action to Hide, granting your attack +2 via Combat Advantage.




Sure. On the other hand, Combat Advantage is so easy to get (even easier with the splat books) that it's up about half of the time in Paragon anyway. Distance Advantage and the right group and the spell caster is easily +2 half of the time versus single target.


----------



## Nifft

KarinsDad said:


> Sure. On the other hand, Combat Advantage is so easy to get (even easier with the splat books) that it's up about half of the time in Paragon anyway. Distance Advantage and the right group and the spell caster is easily +2 half of the time versus single target.



 Hmm, I wonder if Distant Advantage could be seen as creep for this scenario. It's certainly easier to trigger than hiding.

(But even if it is power creep, it's not much power creep.)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## KarinsDad

Nifft said:


> Hmm, I wonder if Distant Advantage could be seen as creep for this scenario. It's certainly easier to trigger than hiding.
> 
> (But even if it is power creep, it's not much power creep.)




By itself it is not much power creep. Totally agree there.

It's the accumulation of many small increases or improvements that result in the PCs getting stronger, but the NPCs staying at the same relative level.

And, that might be ok in the long run, especially due to the to hit and defense math bugs. Heroic level is easier, mid-Paragon on up might require the accumulation of many small power creeps to address the grind issue.


----------



## Nifft

KarinsDad said:


> By itself it is not much power creep. Totally agree there.
> 
> It's the accumulation of many small increases or improvements that result in the PCs getting stronger, but the NPCs staying at the same relative level.
> 
> And, that might be ok in the long run, especially due to the to hit and defense math bugs. Heroic level is easier, mid-Paragon on up might require the accumulation of many small power creeps to address the grind issue.



 Well, if the NPCs fall a bit behind due to stacking conditional bonuses, the fix is trivial: ban Expertise.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Destil

It would most likely be hard to stack a lot of conditionals at once. A feat that (when read correctly) gives +2 against opponents marking you is, for instance, considered very weak (could be decent with a bard, though).

If anything you'll more often be able to get a bonus, rather than stacking lots of bonuses. Though some of the unnamed bonuses are pretty general and easy...

Distant advantage isn't as strong as a full frost-cheese suite of feats/items and it's redundant with it. If anything I think the power creep there is minor and only happens in heroic tier (since anyone who really wants this will have taken the frost option anyway, which is both more expensive and more powerful).


----------



## KarinsDad

Destil said:


> Distant advantage isn't as strong as a full frost-cheese suite of feats/items and it's redundant with it. If anything I think the power creep there is minor and only happens in heroic tier (since anyone who really wants this will have taken the frost option anyway, which is both more expensive and more powerful).




It might not be as strong, but it isn't necessarily redundant either. Hitting a foe 60% of the time with a cold attack means that 40% of the time, Wintertouch is not doing anything. And of course, Wintertouch rarely does anything in round one. Distant Advantage can add in the +2 in some percentage of that 40+% with the proper allies, bumping up the combat advantage to maybe 80% or 90% of rounds.


----------



## Nifft

KarinsDad said:


> It might not be as strong, but it isn't necessarily redundant either. Hitting a foe 60% of the time with a cold attack means that 40% of the time, Wintertouch is not doing anything. And of course, Wintertouch rarely does anything in round one. Distant Advantage can add in the +2 in some percentage of that 40+% with the proper allies, bumping up the combat advantage to maybe 80% or 90% of rounds.



 IMHO Wintertouched is just like Distant Advantage: it's a feat you should discuss with your party.

If the Rogue and the Fighter both have Frost weapons, all three of you should take Wintertouched + Lasting Frost, since the probability of Wintertouched being useful skyrockets when there are multiple sources for vulnerability.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Elric

Nifft said:


> IMHO Wintertouched is just like Distant Advantage: it's a feat you should discuss with your party.
> 
> If the Rogue and the Fighter both have Frost weapons, all three of you should take Wintertouched + Lasting Frost, since the probability of Wintertouched being useful skyrockets when there are multiple sources for vulnerability.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Huh?  You need to take a Frost Weapon/cold powers as well for the feats to do any good!

Wintertouched
Benefit: When attacking a creature that is vulnerable to cold, you gain combat advantage when you use a power that has the cold keyword.

Lasting Frost
Benefit: Any target you hit with a power that has the cold keyword gains vulnerable cold 5 until the end
of your next turn.


----------



## MadLordOfMilk

Elric said:


> Huh?  You need to take a Frost Weapon/cold powers as well for the feats to do any good!



The more people applying Lasting Frost (and thus enabling Wintertouched), the better. Especially because one miss makes you lose out on it for the next turn, but your allies applying it saves you from that worry.


----------



## Elric

MadLordOfMilk said:


> The more people applying Lasting Frost (and thus enabling Wintertouched), the better. Especially because one miss makes you lose out on it for the next turn, but your allies applying it saves you from that worry.




Yes, I am aware of that.  However, this implies a recommendation for "Wintertouched + Lasting Frost + a Frost weapon."  Perhaps Nifft's recommendation of those feats should be seen to imply "and a Frost Weapon/cold powers as well"; if not, I wanted to point out that those feats would be of no benefit without it.


----------



## tiornys

MadLordOfMilk said:


> I keep hearing this, yet despite having actually built several warlords, the only noteworthy use of basic attacks have all been basic melees in my experience. Could you give an example where Magic Missile could be used?



Hail of Steel has already been mentioned, but here are most of the other Warlord powers that can grant a basic attack (ranged or melee) or a ranged basic attack:
Brash Assault (at-will)
Concentrated Attack (D1)
Lead by Example (D1)
Provoke Overextension (E7)
Surprise Attack (E7)
Stay on Target (D9)
Unified in Blood (E13)
Ventured Gains (E13)
War Master's Assault (D15)
Warlord's Gambit (D15)
Exhorted Counterattack (D19)
Unleash Hell (D19)
Victory Surge (D19)
Bloodthirsty Offensive (UD22)
Rush of Battle (UD22)
Blood Begets Blood (E23)
Relentless Assault (D25)
Stir the Hornet's Nest (D25)
Warlord's Indignation (E27)
Abrupt Skirmish (E27)
Deific Rallying (D29)
Flawless Snare (D29)

Now, a lot of these are overshadowed by other options (L1 dailys vs. Lead the Attack, etc.), but Provoke Overextension, Surprise Attack, Warmaster's Assault, Hail of Steel, Victory Surge, Rush of Battle, Relentless Assault, and Warlord's Indignation are among the best choices at their levels.

t~


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## Nifft

Elric said:


> Huh?  You need to take a Frost Weapon/cold powers as well for the feats to do any good!



 Yes, no kidding.

My point is one step beyond that: your expected benefit from Cold attacks (+ Wintertouched) is based on the chance that *someone* with Lasting Frost hit your chosen target with a Cold attack last round.

This is something 3.x people aren't used to thinking about, because the rest of the party didn't previously matter. In 4e, party composition affects your PC's effectiveness quite a bit.

Cheers, -- N


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