# Is power attack damage multiplied on a critical hit?



## jeffman (Oct 4, 2006)

Is power attack damage multiplied on a critical hit?

The critical hit entry has this exception listed:



> Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.




Which I would consider power attack damage to be "extra damage over and above the weapon's normal damage."  

Additionally, the critical hit entry has this to say:


> A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together




Which I would consider power attack damage to not be an "usual bonus."

This is probably an obvious rules question, but I am just surprised by since I never considered power attack damage to not be multiplied in a critical hit.  It never crossed my mind.


----------



## shilsen (Oct 4, 2006)

It's not written as well as should be, but Power Attack damage is multiplied for crits.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 4, 2006)

Yes additional damage from Power Attack is multiplied on a critical, as is anything that is +X damage. 

What isn't multiplied is additional damage that takes the form of additional dice - such as sneak attack and a weapon with the bane property.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mallus (Oct 4, 2006)

shilsen said:
			
		

> It's not written as well as should be, but Power Attack damage is multiplied for crits.



It certainly is...


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Oct 4, 2006)

jeffman, it's "extra damage _dice_."


----------



## frankthedm (Oct 4, 2006)

Actually, I do believe *nearly everyone* has been running this wrong.  

Have fun getting folks to agree what a weapon’s normal damage exactly is though.

I do like the idea of a 1d8 weapon can only benefit from 8 more bonus points of damage.

_Critical Hits
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. 

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. 

*Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.* _ 

I think crits would be a lot more saner this way. As it currently is played for higher level play, it is numerically better to invest in a 18-20 x2 crit weapon.


----------



## wayne62682 (Oct 4, 2006)

You know, I'm inclined to agree with frankthedm.  I believe that Power Attack IS multiplied (and have played that way since starting 3.x), but I agree that crits wouldn't be nearly as crazy as they are now if they were not multiplied.


----------



## Cedric (Oct 4, 2006)

Considering the number of creatures immune to crits and the available means of becoming immune to crits (Fortification and the like)...I don't think full crits are unbalancing. 

To my thinking a BBEG is going to know the danger of a well placed, lucky shot...and is going to have taken steps to protect himself from such eventualities.


----------



## Dracorat (Oct 4, 2006)

Wow good question and good responses. I am highly likely to tell people to stop multiplying their power attacks now.

[edit]I just looked all the quoted sources up. I think that you arent supposed to multiply them and until further notice, my peeps are going to be prevented from doing so.[/edit]


----------



## mvincent (Oct 4, 2006)

Dracorat said:
			
		

> I think that you arent supposed to multiply them



That appears to be incorrect. This was clarified back in the 3.0 FAQ (still valid for this purpose):
_"It’s easiest to think of a confirmed critical hit as a number of
hits equal to the weapon’s critical damage multiplier. The
example character is using a greataxe, which has a critical
multiplier of x3, so the damage for a confirmed critical is just
like the damage for hitting the foe three times. The only
damage that is not multiplied in this way is damage expressed
in extra dice, such as for a rogue’s sneak attack"_


----------



## Corsair (Oct 4, 2006)

SRD said:
			
		

> Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.
> 
> Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.




multiplying damage rules specifically say "with all modifiers".  The exception is "extra damage dice" (flaming, sneak attack, etc).


----------



## irdeggman (Oct 4, 2006)

Example on pg 134 of 3.5 PHB under Multiplying damage

"For example, Krusk the half-orc barbarian has a Strength bonus of +3. Thatmeans he gets +3 bonus on damage rolls when using a longsword, a +4 bonus on damage when using a greataxe (two-handed), and a +1 bonus on damage when using a weapon in his off hand. His critical multiplier with a greataxe is x3, so if he scores a critical hit with that weapon, he would roll 1d12 +4 points of damage three times (the same as rolling 3d12+12)."

So the example pretty much says it works, since this is a "bonus on damage" just like Strength modifier is.


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Oct 4, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.



 That's TWICE now.  You and jeffman are both providing an incorrect quote.  It's "Extra damage *dice*".  This is shown in the Hypertext SRD and more importantly in the WotC SRD.  It's also in the Sovelior SRD.

Is it different in the PH?


----------



## Kheti sa-Menik (Oct 4, 2006)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> That's TWICE now.  You and jeffman are both providing an incorrect quote.  It's "Extra damage *dice*".  This is shown in the Hypertext SRD and more importantly in the WotC SRD.  It's also in the Sovelior SRD.
> 
> Is it different in the PH?





Player's Handbook (3.5), page 140, sidebar at the bottom
"Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword is not multiplied  when you score a critical hit."

Now since it uses things with damage dice as examples, one could argue they mean extra dice of damage are not multiplied but conceivably it could argued that they mean any extra damage and not just dice.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Oct 4, 2006)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> Is it different in the PH?




It appears as 'extra damage' under criticals in the weapons chapter, and 'extra damage dice' under multiplying damage in the combat chapter, in the 3.5 PHB.

You'll find it in the Sovelior/Sage SRD here, the Hypertext SRD here, and the WotC SRD here.

-Hyp.


----------



## Ranger REG (Oct 4, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Actually, I do believe *nearly everyone* has been running this wrong.
> 
> Have fun getting folks to agree what a weapon’s normal damage exactly is though.



Weapon's normal damage is what stated in the Weapons table. Who would disagree with that, other than the folks who believe certain weapons' stats does too little or too much damage?


----------



## frankthedm (Oct 4, 2006)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> That's TWICE now. You and jeffman are both providing an incorrect quote. It's "Extra damage dice". This is shown in the Hypertext SRD and more importantly in the WotC SRD. It's also in the Sovelior SRD.



If you want to accuse me of incorrect quoting, you'd better double check the source...


----------



## Ranger REG (Oct 4, 2006)

*frankthedm,* most of us already noticed that. But I prefer the _Exception_ paragraph from under the *Damage* heading (scroll up from that page above).


----------



## irdeggman (Oct 4, 2006)

There is a difference in the applicable text in the 2 places it occurs in the PHB. So both groups are actually corect in their "quotes".

On pg 134 under Multiplying damage it has:




> Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage (see Multiplying, page 304).
> 
> *Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, are never multiplied.*
> 
> For example, Krusk the half-orc barbarian has a Strength bonus of +3. That means he gets a +3 bonus on damage rolls when using a longsword, a +4 bonus on damage when using a greataxe (twohanded), and a +1 bonus to damage when using a weapon in his off hand. His critical multiplier with a greataxe is ×3, so if he scores a critical hit with that weapon, he would roll 1d12+4 points of damage three times (the same as rolling 3d12+12).





And under Critical (on pg 114) it has:



> Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and
> add all the results together.
> 
> *Exception: Bonus damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.*
> ...





But the only "example" is contained on page 134 and it clearly indicates they get multiplied.

The SRD vesions do not include examples, which IMO is one of the things that help to "explain" what the actual rule is intended to be.


----------



## Christian (Oct 4, 2006)

Also, the _critical hit_ entry in the Glossary of the PHB has 'extra damage dice', not just 'extra damage'.


----------



## frankthedm (Oct 4, 2006)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> The SRD vesions do not include examples, which IMO is one of the things that help to "explain" what the actual rule is intended to be.



_Bows graciously in defeat._ 

IIRC “Caster Level” is another place where the examples were important


----------



## pawsplay (Oct 5, 2006)

_Roll the damage *(with all modifiers)* multiple times and total the results. _

Could this be any easier?


----------



## mvincent (Oct 5, 2006)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> _Roll the damage *(with all modifiers)* multiple times and total the results. _
> 
> Could this be any easier?



Well, I personally find multiplying the damage easier than re-rolling it, but I agree, such a long thread on what is multiplied seemed pretty unneeded.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Oct 5, 2006)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Could this be any easier?




When the PHB twice states that extra damage is not multiplied on a critical, it's forgivable for people to be confused... especially when the omission of the word 'dice' has not been corrected in errata.

-Hyp.


----------



## Legildur (Oct 5, 2006)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> ... especially when the omission of the word 'dice' has not been corrected in errata.



Don't you mean FAQ?


----------



## Dracorat (Oct 5, 2006)

My above post is hereby rescinded. D&D will return to what it always was.


----------



## Felix (Oct 5, 2006)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Don't you mean FAQ?



Weeeel shucks... them's fightin words 'round these here parts.


----------



## Hellefire (Oct 5, 2006)

Yes, it leaves room for interpretation. I have always used the examples (which multiply strength bonuses on crits) to mean that any plusses to base damage count for crits. It is very specifically specified, everywhere extra dice appear, that extra dice are not multiplied. This seems to infer that only extra dice are not multiplied in crits, but other bonuses are. 

Also, page 221 of the DMG 3.5E, under WEAPONS - Additional Damage Dice states: "Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifiers to damage, additional dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit." It could be argued that by 'other modifiers to damage' they mean the inherent pluses of magic weapons (since a magic item has to be at least +1 to include other special eatures), but I believe due to wording everywhere that this is the general rule: extra dice are not multiplied for crits, but other modifiers to damage are.

My .02.

Aaron


----------



## shilsen (Oct 5, 2006)

Mallus said:
			
		

> It certainly is...



 Cheapskate


----------



## Pielorinho (Oct 5, 2006)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Don't you mean FAQ?



Don't make me come back there....


----------



## Legildur (Oct 5, 2006)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Don't make me come back there....



LOL!


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Oct 5, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> If you want to accuse me of incorrect quoting, you'd better double check the source...



 Not incorrect quoting, just insufficient quoting.


----------



## Artoomis (Oct 5, 2006)

Just to settle the matter of what language is where:

PHB, page 306 (Glossary) "...Any *extra damage dice*...are not rolled multiple times..."

PHB, page 114 (Weapon Qualities) "...*Extra damage* over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that caused by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword is not multiplied when you score a critical hit..."

PHB page 134 (Damage) "......Exception: *Extra damage* over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that caused by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."

PHB page 140 (Actions in Combat) "...*Extra damage* over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that caused by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword is not multiplied when you score a critical hit..."

DMG page 26 (Behind the Curtain)  "The reason that critical hits *multiply all damage rather than just the die roll*...*Multiplying all damage, the roll and the bonuses,* makes..." 

DMG page 221 (Weapons) - "Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifiers to damage, *additional dice of damage* are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit."

SRD (Hypertext SRD)  "...Exception: *Extra damage dice* over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. "

SRD (Official, COMBAT file)  "...Exception: *Extra damage dice* over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied."

Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## Felix (Oct 5, 2006)

I think it's worth noting that the citations from the PHB on pages 114, 134, and 140 which say "Extra Damage" all reference extra damage from additional dice. While they don't say "Extra damage dice" like the other citations, they all do reference them indirectly.


----------



## irdeggman (Oct 5, 2006)

Hey don't forget the "example" that I quoted earlier. It is the only example of how things stack and it clearly shows that the damage (but not dice) are multiplied.


----------



## NCSUCodeMonkey (Oct 5, 2006)

Slightly different variation of the same question: assuming power attack damage is multiplied on a critical hit, how is multiplied power attack damage multiplied? E.g.:

If a 4th level fighter weilding a greatsword two handed power attacks for 4, he adds 8 (x2) to his damage. When he criticals, does he multiply the 4 damage from power attack by x3 or x4? Or another way of asking: do the normal rules for adding multipliers apply? Or do you multiply the power attack modifier before applying the critical?

At first, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, until you consider a mounted creature weilding a lance two handed and power attacking.  With spirited charge, he *always* gets a x3 multiplier on damage on a charge. So, does a paladin power attacking for 5 do: (1d8 + 10 + ...) x3 or (1d8 + ...) x3 + 20?

I don't have any specific rule text to back me up, but I think the second damage total is in the spirit of the rules. However, if you look at the way that most people handle power attacked criticals, I think everybody usually does the former.

NCSUCodeMonkey


----------



## Artoomis (Oct 5, 2006)

NCSUCodeMonkey said:
			
		

> Slightly different variation of the same question: assuming power attack damage is multiplied on a critical hit, how is multiplied power attack damage multiplied? E.g.:...NCSUCodeMonkey




Roll your damage twice (or thrice, or whatever).  It's as simple as that.

In other words:

If a two-handed weapon, 18 STR (+4 damage) fighter uses power attack with a Spear, he gets 1d8 + 8 damage.

On a confirmed critical hit he gets (1d8+8) + (1d8+8) + (1d8+8).


----------



## NCSUCodeMonkey (Oct 5, 2006)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Roll your damage twice (or thrice, or whatever).  It's as simple as that.
> 
> In other words:
> 
> ...



Sweet. Well my lil' halfling paladin is going to have to get power attack (and an animated shield) real soon. For every 1 point he takes off his charging attacks, he'll be getting 6 extra damage!

NCSUCodeMonkey


----------



## Hypersmurf (Oct 5, 2006)

NCSUCodeMonkey said:
			
		

> Slightly different variation of the same question: assuming power attack damage is multiplied on a critical hit, how is multiplied power attack damage multiplied?




Part of your problem is considering Power Attack damage for a two-handed weapon to be 'multiplied'.

Mathematically, there might be no difference between:
"You may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls.  If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, this damage is doubled."

and 

"You may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls.  If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls."

But in the first case, you are adding some damage and then multiplying it; in the second case, you are adding a larger amount of damage.

The first case might fall under the multiplication rule if the damage is later doubled; the second case does not, just as adding 1.5x Str bonus damage is conceptually (though not mathematically) different to adding Str bonus to damage, then multiplying that bonus damage by 1.5.

If you're multiplying your added damage, it falls under the multiplication rule if some other effect also multiplies your damage.  If you're multiplying something that isn't damage to determine your added damage, it doesn't.

-Hyp.


----------



## Artoomis (Oct 5, 2006)

NCSUCodeMonkey said:
			
		

> Sweet. Well my lil' halfling paladin is going to have to get power attack (and an animated shield) real soon. For every 1 point he takes off his charging attacks, he'll be getting 6 extra damage!
> 
> NCSUCodeMonkey




Cool, eh?  The hardest part is getting set up for the charge.


----------



## Dracorat (Oct 5, 2006)

Cooperate with a wizard who can cast Telekinesis. I had a couple of players in one campaign that did exactly that.


----------



## NCSUCodeMonkey (Oct 6, 2006)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Part of your problem is considering Power Attack damage for a two-handed weapon to be 'multiplied'.



Not really a "problem", I've just found that when I come across something in the rules that sounds too good to be true, it usually is . I wouldn't have any problem with my DM ruling that he wanted to add the multipliers, but I can see that's not how it works by the RAW.



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> Cool, eh? The hardest part is getting set up for the charge.



Hasn't been a problem so far, being a small character with a medium mount and ride-by attack has made it easy to crash through combat doing mosh damage.

NCSUCodeMonkey


----------



## Artoomis (Oct 6, 2006)

NCSUCodeMonkey said:
			
		

> ...Hasn't been a problem so far, being a small character with a medium mount and ride-by attack has made it easy to crash through combat doing mosh damage.
> 
> NCSUCodeMonkey




I used to have a character just like that.  Howver, the 3.5 charge rules make this hard to do.  Not being able to move through an ally's square when charbging limit your options quite a bit.

I found I was generally only able to charge every other round - sometimes two round in a row if thiungs worked out right.  So I would do really massive damage every other round - that's one hit for about every six the fighter was doing.  Still it was VERY cinematic and fun, but very much a one-trick pony.


----------



## Legildur (Oct 6, 2006)

I guess that is where you need those PrCs that grant special abilities that allow a single change of direction, charge through allies (Halfling Outrider?), or ignore difficult terrain.


----------



## nobodez (Oct 6, 2006)

Legildur said:
			
		

> I guess that is where you need those PrCs that grant special abilities that allow a single change of direction, charge through allies (Halfling Outrider?), or ignore difficult terrain.




That's why druids/rangers make great mounted combatants (esp. multi-class with the Natural Bond Feat). Halfling Ranger on a Dire Bat or a Cheetah (Climb Speed) can usually get around terrain/friendlies. Plus, the halfling outrider has a mid-level ability that negates friendlies in charge lanes.

Also, don't forgot that when riding, a lance is considered a one-handed weapon, and so it only gets the x1 PA damage, not the x2 PA damage.


----------



## Legildur (Oct 6, 2006)

nobodez said:
			
		

> Also, don't forgot that when riding, a lance is considered a one-handed weapon, and so it only gets the x1 PA damage, not the x2 PA damage.



Says whom?  It is a two-handed weapon with a special property that it may be wielded in one hand when mounted.  That special property in no way changes it other characteristics (namely being a two-handed weapon) and it gains x1.5 Str bonus to damage AND the more favourable Power Attack bonus to damage when wielded in one hand by a mounted character.  This point has been debated before and the rules are pretty clear on this, even though some people do not like it either for balance reasons or that it offends their sense of how it should work.


----------



## JonnyFive (Oct 6, 2006)

a bit off topic here.... do you add magic to crit damage, IE +1 longsword w/ 10 str = (1d8+1)x2 crit?


----------



## irdeggman (Oct 6, 2006)

JonnyFive said:
			
		

> a bit off topic here.... do you add magic to crit damage, IE +1 longsword w/ 10 str = (1d8+1)x2 crit?




It would appear that the text may be confusing on this one.

I would go with the text on pg 134 of the pHB (which includes the only example of the base issue - but does not specifically include enahncement bonus in the example). The text does speak about only the extra damage dice doesn't apply.


So I would say yes it gets multiplied since it is not extra damage dice.


----------



## NCSUCodeMonkey (Oct 6, 2006)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> I used to have a character just like that.  Howver, the 3.5 charge rules make this hard to do.  Not being able to move through an ally's square when charbging limit your options quite a bit.



Luckily, my halfling is one of three melee-ers and so far I've never had trouble finding an opening. Granted, our party usually fights multiple opponents, but ride-by attack (and copius shouting to allies to stay out of the way ) makes the re-use of charging lanes pretty easy.

NCSUCodeMonkey


----------



## NCSUCodeMonkey (Oct 6, 2006)

Legildur said:
			
		

> That special property in no way changes it other characteristics (namely being a two-handed weapon) and it gains x1.5 Str bonus to damage AND the more favourable Power Attack bonus to damage when wielded in one hand by a mounted character.



Really? So the extra strength damage comes from the fact that it is a two handed weapon, even if you're not wielding it with two hands? That's pretty cool. Does that apply with monkey grip as well? I.e. normally you'd need two hands to wield a weapon, but with monkey grip you can wield it in one, so you get 1.5 str? I'm not saying you're wrong, btw, I just never realized that so I want to make sure I understand.

NCSUCodeMonkey


----------



## Artoomis (Oct 6, 2006)

JonnyFive said:
			
		

> a bit off topic here.... do you add magic to crit damage, IE +1 longsword w/ 10 str = (1d8+1)x2 crit?




Read together, the PHB rules text plus PHB glossary is pretty clear.

Roll damage twice (d8+1) + (d8+1).

Add in extra dice one.  For example, flaming adds 1 d6, so a crit with a +1 flaming longsword is:

(d8+1)+(d8+1)+d6.

Clear?


----------



## Artoomis (Oct 6, 2006)

NCSUCodeMonkey said:
			
		

> Really? So the extra strength damage comes from the fact that it is a two handed weapon, even if you're not wielding it with two hands? That's pretty cool. Does that apply with monkey grip as well? I.e. normally you'd need two hands to wield a weapon, but with monkey grip you can wield it in one, so you get 1.5 str? I'm not saying you're wrong, btw, I just never realized that so I want to make sure I understand.
> 
> NCSUCodeMonkey




It depends on which rules you go with.

The PHB talk about the weapon charecteristics, so two-handed is two-handed, even if wielded in one hand.

The FAQ takes a different view, and how you wield it is what counts for the damage bonus.  This seems to be the more reasonable approach, though the actual FAQ language has some issues.

Anyway, you choose which way to go.


----------



## JonnyFive (Oct 6, 2006)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Read together, the PHB rules text plus PHB glossary is pretty clear.
> 
> Roll damage twice (d8+1) + (d8+1).
> 
> ...




yup, thanks


----------



## Legildur (Oct 6, 2006)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> It depends on which rules you go with.
> 
> The PHB talk about the weapon characteristics, so two-handed is two-handed, even if wielded in one hand.
> 
> ...



Yeah, this is one of those issues where the FAQ is in apparent contradiction to the core rules (PHB in this case).  I can't comment about the Monkey Grip feat as I haven't read or ever considered using it (smells like too much cheese to me).


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Oct 6, 2006)

NCSUCodeMonkey said:
			
		

> Does that apply with monkey grip as well?



 Unless I'm sadly mistaken, Monkey Grip has no bearing on this.  Monkey Grip only allows you to wield a bigger weapon without changing your grip (i.e. one-handed or two-handed).  You might be thinking of 3.0 Monkey Grip where you could wield a two-handed weapon in one hand.  IIRC, this is no longer allowed.


----------



## Felix (Oct 6, 2006)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> The PHB talk about the weapon charecteristics, so two-handed is two-handed, even if wielded in one hand.
> 
> The FAQ takes a different view, and how you wield it is what counts for the damage bonus. This seems to be the more reasonable approach, though the actual FAQ language has some issues.




_If_ the FAQ's purpose is to clarify PHB rules, then their ruling on lances is in direct contradiction to the PHB. In this case, the PHB has precedence and attacks with a mounted lance gain the favorable power attack by virtue of being a two-handed weapon.

_If_ the FAQ's purpose is to change PHB rules, then the FAQ has precedence, and the lance benefits from the 1-to-1 Power Attack by virtue of how the weapon is wielded.

I suggest that the first is the case, as the FAQ is not eratta, merely an aid to understanding the core books. It also happens that the second option opens up a can of worms you might not have thought of; for more information cast _Summon Small Flying Smurf Moderator IV_ and you'll get an earfull.


----------



## Artoomis (Oct 6, 2006)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Yeah, this is one of those issues where the FAQ is in apparent contradiction to the core rules (PHB in this case).  I can't comment about the Monkey Grip feat as I haven't read or ever considered using it (smells like too much cheese to me).




Well, to throw fuel on the fire, the rules say:

Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon. 

They do NOT say what happens when you wield a two-handed weapon with one hand - as in the lance.

They do say a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands gets the two-handed weapon's damage multiplier.

So what I am saying is that it's prefectly reasonable to rule either way, just be consistent in your game.

I think an offical WotC game would have you doing damage per the way the weapon is wielded, not the way it is listed on the table - at least for one-handed and two-handed weapons.  For light weapons it does not matter.


----------



## Dracorat (Oct 6, 2006)

Actually the lance specifically says in its description that it can be wielded with one hand if you are mounted.

And yes, it says _can_ - implying that it's optional.


----------



## comrade raoul (Oct 6, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> I think crits would be a lot more saner this way. As it currently is played for higher level play, it is numerically better to invest in a 18-20 x2 crit weapon.



Just note that with this kind of system, the 18-20 weapon becomes straightforwardly worse than the 19-20 weapon, such that people would only invest in them for flavor reasons. This might not be so bad, if you think critical hits aren't sane, but you'd be purchasing sanity at the cost of interesting weapon choices.

Note too that at immunity or resistance to critical hits is more common. Essentially, you're trading better numerical damage under optimal circumstances for slightly worse damage under less optimal ones. This becomes significant for characters built around delivering critical damage.


----------

