# Converting First Edition monsters from DRAGON magazine



## BOZ (Oct 15, 2003)

OK, time to get things moving on new conversions again here at the Creature Catalog!  I realize that I just don’t have the time to pump out conversions the way I used to anymore, and as I’m the only one still doing this I figure I need some help from you all.  I like the way the 3.5e Overhaul Project thread has been working out so far, so I will apply that method to conversions for the foreseeable future.

This will be the first in a series of threads where I will be working on converting a series of monsters from similar sources.  For this thread, we will be focusing on First Edition monsters that first appeared in Dragon magazine.  You may feel free to make suggestions (go to the first post in this thread to pick from eligible monsters), but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text.  Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work.  Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next.  As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog.  You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

Here are some examples of monsters not yet converted:

26 - Lower soul, lost soul, vampire-spectre, sea bonze, Celestial stag, goat demon (Chinese Undead, David Sweet)

28 - Satan, Belial, Astaroth (The Politics of Hell)
28 - Slinger (Dragon's Bestiary, Jake Jacquet)

31 - Ukuyatangi (Dragon's Bestiary)

34 - Vilkonnar (Dragon's Bestiary, Charles Carson)

35 - Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominations, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels, Angels of the Ninth Order (Angels, William Fawcett)

37 - Prowler, jarkung, elemental demons, the Oracle (aka the Stalker) (The Pit of the Oracle, Stephen Sullivan)
37 - Vulturehounds (Dragon's Bestiary, Chris Chalmers and Dan Pollak)

38 - Brown dragon, yellow dragon, orange dragon, Tiamat, Bahamut (Leomund's Tiny Hut, Lenard Lekofka) Tiamat and Bahamut are first given diety status here, and appeared previously in the Monster Manual. They later appeared as the first 3rd edition creatures in Dragon 272, then in the Manual of the Planes, and Dieties and Demigods.

39 - Groundsquid (Dragon's Bestiary, Larry DiTillio)

40 - Werelion, wereleapord, werejaguar, weresabre, weredire, wereram, wereweasel, weresloth, werebadger, werebison, (The Other Were? Right Here!, Roger E. Moore)
40 - Fire-eye lizard, flitte, wingless wonder, huntsmen (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors) The wingless wonder later appeared in the 2nd edition in Menzoberranzan.

41 - The Silkie, (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors) 
41 - Marquins (The Halls of Beol-Dur, module by Dave Luther, Jon Naatz, Dave Niessen, Mark Schultz) 

42 - Saraphs, the Appolyon, asperim, Hacamuli (Demons, Devils, and Spirits, Tom Moldvay)
42 - Quatsch, necroton, well spirit, sandbats, swampbats, (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors)

43 - Amazon, tolwar (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors) 
44 - Koodjanuk, cryoserpent, ice golem (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors)

45 - Skyzorr'n, sand lizard, dust devil (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors)

46 - Gaund (Dragon's Bestiary, Ed Greenwood) The gaund later appeared in the 2nd edition in MC11. 

47 - Wirchler, aruchai, Phoenix, Fury, mapmaker, flard, sugo (Creatures From Elsewhere, Patrick Amory) ...I'm pretty sure Dieties and Demigods came out before this issue, and weren't the Furies and the Phoenix in it?

48 - Water-horse, sea demon, (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors) The sea demon later appeared in the 2nd edition in Monstrous Compendium Annual 4.

50 - Kzinti (Kzinti, Robert Plamondon)
50 - Giant vampire frog (Dragon's Bestiary, Alan Fomorin)

51 - The winged folk (Al Karak Elam) (The Winged Folk, William Lenox) The winged folk later appeared in the 2nd edition as the Avariel in the Complete Book of Elves, and in Monstrous Compendium Annual 2.
51 - Dark dwellers, piranha bats (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors)

52 - pelins (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors)

53 - Guardians (The Garden of Nefaron)
53 - Argas, narra (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors)
53 - Triffids (The Ways of the Triffids, Mark Nuiver)

54 - Boggart, stroan, incubus (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors)
54 - The Jabberwock (Beware the Jabberwock, Mark Nuiver) A similar creature by the same name appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual 3.

55 - Allosaurus, deinonychus, teratosaurus, therezinosaurus, tyrannosaurus rex, apatosaurus, brachiosaurus, diplodocus, plateosaurus, anatosaurus, iguanadon, parasaurolophus, ankylosarusus, triceratops, stegosaurus, pteranodon (A Book Even T. Rex Would Like, Chris Henderson) These dinos appeared in many places, and I'm not going to track them all down. 
55 - Devil spider, surchur, poltergeist (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors)

56 - Shroom, colfel, gem vars (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors)

57 - Phooka (The Wandering Trees, Michael Malone)

58 - beguiler, Magenta's cat (Dragon's Bestiary, Ed Greenwood and Roger Moore) The beguiler appeared in MC11.
58 - Geryon, Echidna, the Nemeian Lion, the Monster of Geryoneo, the Blatant Beast (The Blood of Medusa, Michael Parkinson) This Geryon is not the same as the one from the Monster Manual.

59 - stymphalian birds, (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors) 
59 - Demonic Knights of Doom (The Great Kingdom and the Knights of Doom, Rob Kuntz)

60 - Pooka (Pooka, Michael Fountain)

61 - Firetail, light worm, umbrae, tybor (Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors) The firetail later appeared in the 2nd edition in MC11 and in Monstrous Compendium Annual 3.
61 - Gan-da-yah, ga-hon-ga, oh-do-was (Jo-ga-oh: Little People of the Iriqouis, Conrad Froehlich)

62 - steel dragon, grey dragon (Our Annual Full-Blown Dragon Section, various contributors)

65 - Yellow dragon, orange dragon, purple dragon (The Missing Dragons, Richard Alan Lloyd) These dragons appeared later in the 2nd edition in issue 248.

67 - Barrel spider, boleadore spider, net-throwing/fishing spider, crab spider, daddy longlegs, jumping spider, raft/swamp spider, spitting spider, trap-door/purse spider, whip spider, wolf spider (Souping Up the Spider, Gregg Chamberlain)

68 - Koalinth, marine vodyanoi, fresh water sea hag, mottled purple worm (What's That in the Water?, Mark S. Harcourt)

70 - Werejaguar (Mechica, Gali Sanchez)

74 - Arack, scintillating dragon, night dragon (Landragons, Ronald Hall)
74 - Electrum dragon (The Electrum Dragon, Ed Greenwood) The electrum dragon later appeared in the 2nd edition in the Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set and in Monstrous Compendium Annual 1.

75 - Bitru (From the Sorceror's Stone: New Denizens of Devildom, E. Gary Gygax) 
75 - Amduscias, Malphas, Nergal, Bist, Caim, Lilis, Arioch, Biffant, Merodach, Alocer, Naome, Chamo, Balan, Bathym, Gaziel, Cozbi, Gorson, Herodias, Agares, Machalas, (The Nine Hells Part I, Ed Greenwood)

76 - Lilith, Tartach, Bileth, Baftis, Neabaz, Barbatos, Abigor, Zepar, Bele, Adonides, Barbas, Bifrons, Bensozia, Adramalech, Phongor, Buer, Bune, Morax, Rimmon, Zagum (The Nine Hells Part II, Ed Greenwood)

77 - The Devil of the Tarot (Tarot of Many Things, Michael J. Lowrey)

78 - Deryni (The Deryni, Arthur Collins)

79 - Gremlins (Blame It On the Gremlins, Gregg Chamberlain) I don't believe these are the same gremlins we all know and love... or are they?

84 - Rakshasa knight, rakshasa lord (Never the Same Thing Twice, Scott Bennie)

86 - Telperan, glissan, baltir, tabur, orrek, quark, nalg, durocib, haudhla, veeru (Familiars With a Special Use, Stephen Inniss)

89 - Killer Beetle (Aratha), Bohun Tree, Cantobele, Corkie, Explodestool, Fachan, Flailtail, Glasspane Horror, Giant Horseshoe Crab, Ihagnim, Millikan, Peltast, Giant Pitcher Plant, Seastar, Scallion, Giant Shrike, Sind, Star Leviathan, Giant Venus Fly-Trap, Vurgen, Killer Whale (Creature Catalog, various authors)

91 - Armaros, Azazel, Cahor, Dagon, Duskur, Kochibel, Malarea, Nisroch, Rumjal, Gargoth (Nine Hells Revisited, Ed Greenwood) Gargoth appeared in the 2nd edition as Gargauth (a demigod) in Powers and Pantheons.

92 - Scalmagadrion (Pages From the Mages, Ed Greenwood) The Scalamgadrion later appeared in the 2nd edition in Pages From the Mages and in Monstrous Compendium Annual 3.

94 - giant betta, phase dragon, fireball fly, firestar, flamewing, hurgeon, giant lightning bug, orgautha, rekeihs, rummele, viltch, great wyrm, (Creature Catalog II, various contributors) 
95 - Chimpanzee, giganopithecus, gorilla, orangutan (The Many Shapes of Apes, Stephen Inniss)

101 - automaton, bogeyman, burbur, creeping pit, dracones, forchoreai, gargorian, gu'armori, hawkdragon, mantimera, metal mimic, pilfer vine, righteous clay, sea giant, tener, thendar, tundra beast, wind thrower, yale (Creature Catalog III, various contributors) The burbur later appeared in the 2nd edition in MC3 and in Monstrous Compendium Annual 3. The orpsu later appeared in the 2nd edition in FR13 Anauroch and in MC11.

102 - Bushdog, coyote, dhole, dingo, feral dog, fox, hunting dog, jackal, wolf, dire wolf (A Collection of Canines, Stephen Inniss)
102 - Huntsman (Valley of the Earth Mother, Lise Breakey)

103 - Domestic dog (A Dozen Domestic Dogs, Stephen Inniss)

108 - Pernicon (The Pernicon: A New Version, John Nephew) The original version of the pernicon originally appeared in the Fiend Folio.
108 - Volheller, tren, river crocodile, rivertree (The Plants of Biurndon, Eric W. Pass)

110 - Angur-Boda, Egder, Grid, Hati Hrodvitnisson and Skoll, Nidhogg, the Tempests, Utgard-Loki, Vafthrudnir (For Better Or Norse: I, Joel McGraw)

111 - Peridinium, gonyaulax, ceratium, noctiluca, paramecium, amoeba, elphidium, globigerina, dictyostelium (Microscopic Monsters, Kent Colbath)

112 - Aetosaur, ankylosaur, carnosaur, ceratopsian, marine chelonian, (rest of article appears to missing) (Dinosaurs: Mesozoic Monsters From the Mightiest to the Weakest, Stephen Inniss)

115 - King cobra, black mamba, gaboon viper, rattlesnake, flying snake, sea snake, rock python, ram python, boa constrictor, anaconda, ringed snake, saw-edged scaled snake (Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth, Ray Hamel and David Hage)

116 - Brain coral, sea centaur, giant clam, giant grouper, morana, giant porcupine fish, electric ray, sawfish/sawshark, giant sea anemone, sea titan, undine, weed giant (The Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors) The brain coral, giant clam, giant grouper, morana, giant porcupine fish, electric ray, and giant sea anemone later appeared in the 2nd edition in Monstrous Compendium Annual 4.

117 - Gith dogs, Xotzcoyotl (Hounds of Space and Darkness, Stephen Inniss)

118 - Opilionid, spider cat, phoenix spider, polar spider, giant bolas spider (The Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors)

122 - Chepekwe, silwane-manzi, chemosit, dingonek, nzefu-loi, getiet, utuchekulu, tyerkow, nunda, ngojama, unthlatu, ingogo (Gaming the Dark Continent, Roger E. Moore)

125 - Radiance quasi-elemental, steam quasi-elemental, mineral quasi-elemental (Plane Speaking: The (Positive) Quasi-Elementals!, Jeff Grubb) The positive quasi-elementals (along with the lightning variety from Monster Manual II) later appeared in the 2nd edition in Planescape Monstrous Compendium III.

126 - Dracula (Vlad Tepes), vrykolakas, baobhan sith, ch'ing shih (Hearts of Darkness, Tom Moldvay)

128 - Ash quasi-elemental, vacuum quasi-elemental, dust quasi-elemental, salt quasi-elemental (Plane Speaking: The (Negative) Quasi-Elementals!, Jeff Grubb) The negative quasi-elementals later appeared in the 2nd edition in Planescape Monstrous Compendium III.

131 - Greater aboleth, noble aboleth, ruler aboleth, grand aboleth (The Ecology of the Aboleth, Brandon Grist)

133 Neries, diopatra, vanadis, eurythoe, glycera, sabella, terebella, pectineria (The Dragon's Bestiary, Kent Colbath)

134 - Dragotha (Lords & Legends, William Simpson)
134 - Aquatic dragon, icthyodrake, astral dragon, weredragon, fang dragon, sand dragon, stone dragon (The Dragon's Bestiary, various contributors) The weredragon later appeared in the 2nd edition in The Halls of the High King and in Monstrous Compendium Annual 3, and appeared in the 3rd edition as the song dragon in Monsters of Faerun. The fang dragon later appeared in the 2nd edition in the Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set and in Monstrous Compendium Annual 1, and appeared in the 3rd edition in Monsters of Faerun.

135 - Tibbit "cat-were" (The Dragon's Bestiary, Scott Bennie)

137 - Antelope, bison, giraffe, hart, musk-ox, okapi, seals, tapir, walrus (What's For Lunch?, David Howery)
137 - Alticamelus, ambelodon, arsinotherium, astrapotherium, short-faced bear, giant bison, cattle (auroch), deinotherium, gigantopithecus, glyptodon, macrauchenia, moropus, sivatherium, ground sloth, uintatherium (Into the Age of Mammals, David Howery)

138 - Bloody bones, skleros, dry bones, gem eyes, shock bones, galley beggar, walking dead, hungry dead, colossus, le grand zombi, ghula, baka, gelloudes, spirit-ghoul, black annis, wendigo, callicantzari (The Ungrateful Dead, Tom Moldvay)

146 - Cobra dragon, obsidian dragon, gray dragon, rainbow dragon, draken, minidragon (The Dragon's Bestiary: All Dragons Great and Small, various contributors)
146 - Crystal drake, demon drake, faerie drake, shadow drake (Dragons are Wizards Best Friends, David E. Cates)

149 - Av, bahtel, kiita, vor, wandega (The Dragon's Bestiary: Not Quite Horses - But Perhaps Better, Kurt Martin)

151 - Sch’theraqpasstt (Major Demon), histachii (The Ecology of the Yuan-Ti, David Wellman)


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## BOZ (Oct 15, 2003)

The first monster I’ve decided to work on is one requested by Grodog; the Rapper from Dragon #58.

Here are the original stats:

Rapper
Undead Dwarf
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 4
% IN LAIR: 95%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-9 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Insanity, loss of direction
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit, invisibility
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: S (4’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: V/240 x 4/HP

A rapper is the undead form of an evil dwarven thief or assassin who died in an attempt to steal something. These beings typically inhabit old mines and caverns, where they attempt to lure victims in to their doom. Rappers appear to be pale-skinned dwarves with semi-translucent skin, dressed in rags and carrying weapons or mining tools. They can go invisible twice a day for 6 turns, but will become visible when physically attacking.
Rappers will hide in small corners of underground tunnels and make a constant, rhythmic tapping sound with their tools or weapons against the tunnel wall. This sound carries in a 120’ radius through the underground corridors and rooms; it is never very loud, but is annoying to listen to. Within the 120’ radius this tapping noise will reduce the chance of successfully listening at doors by 20% (making it impossible for non-thieves to listen at doors at all).
After listening to this tapping sound for longer than an hour, a human or demi-human or humanoid creature must make a saving throw vs. magic at +2, or else develop a form of insanity (monomania; see DMG, p. 83, for effects). Those who saved the first time against this power must save again after listening to it for a second consecutive hour, again after a third hour, and so forth. There is a 20% chance that an affected character or creature will also develop kleptomania (DMG, p. 83). Rappers can keep up their tapping for an infinitely long duration.
If they are located and attacked, rappers will attack in a crazed manner and will howl and shriek loudly, possibly (40% chance) attracting additional monsters. Anyone struck by a rapper’s weapon or by the rapper itself must save vs. magic or be affected as if by the 6th-level cleric spell Lose The Path for a full day. During this time the character will be unable to tell directions and must be led by hand or by force.
Rappers guard their victims’ remains. For treasure, generate the number and types of magical items owned by 1-4 random non-player characters of 1st through 6th level, according to the tables in the DMG on pp. 175-176. Hide bodies and magic items under rubble or elsewhere in the rappers’ lair. Assume each of the dead victims possessed treasure types J, K, L, M, N, and Q as well. A victim will not automatically possess any magical treasure or gems.
Clerics turn rappers the same as wights. Holy water does 2-8 points damage per hit. Raise Dead and Resurrection destroy them, but they are immune to all poisons, paralysis, enchant/charm spells, and cold attacks.



and here are some basic stats I’ve worked out so far.  discuss!  (BTW, no I don’t want to convert this as a template – personal preference!)

*Rapper*
Medium Undead
HD: 4d12 (26 hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares)
AC: 18 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+X
Attack: Heavy pick + X melee (1d6+X/20/x4 plus disorient) or slam +X melee (1d8+X plus disorient)
Full Attack: Heavy pick + X melee (1d6+X/20/x4 plus disorient) or slam +X melee (1d8+X plus disorient)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Disorient, rapping
Special Qualities: Damage reduction, immunity to cold, invisibility, undead traits
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con --- Int X Wis X Chr X
Skills: Hide +
Feats: 2

Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or gang (1-4) 
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 5-12 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: ---


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## Leopold (Oct 15, 2003)

let me get this straight. your going to be doing 2 of these threads now? 

1 converting from 3.0 to 3.5 and this from 1E to 3.5E?

sweet. more threads to subscribe to!

rapper:

STR:16
DEX:10
CON:--
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA:10

They are strong and some what bright as they try to find the pcs with their picks. Give them tremorsense or echolocation?

Ability is like cause disease with +2 modifier

Feats: Toughness, Weapon focus (Pick)
Skills: Listen and spot


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## BOZ (Oct 15, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

> let me get this straight. your going to be doing 2 of these threads now?




probably more than 1.    i felt the upgrade thread was moving pretty slowly, and i wanted a challenge and to get things moving again...


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## BOZ (Oct 16, 2003)

and for reference, here are those "insanities" from the 1E DMG:

2. Kleptomania: This is another mild insanity form which manifests itself in an ardent desire, in this case an uncontrollable urge to steal any small object available. The afflicted will furtively pocket small items, regardless of their worth, whenever the opportunity presents itself, and he or she will usually seek out such opportunities. There is a 90% probability of being seen stealing if the character is being observed. This desire to take things is absolutely uncontrollable, and the individual will lie to avoid being prevented the opportunity, or when caught.
Kleptomaniac thieves or assassins have a -10% on their stealing ability due to the overpowering urge to immediately steal an item.

5. Monomania: This character will seem absolutely normal until presented with an idea, goal, or similar project which seems promising or purposeful to him or her. As of then, the character will become obsessed with the accomplishment of the purpose. He or she will think of nothing else, talk of nothing else, plan and act to accomplish nothing save the fixed end. The monomaniac will brook no swerving from any friend or associate, and he or she will insist that such individuals serve the “cause” with the same devotion that the afflicted character shows. (Hostility and violence could result, and certainly not a little suspicion and mistrust if co-operation is not heartfelt...) Once the desired end has been accomplished, the insane character will manifest symptoms of dementia praecox (6., below) until a new purpose is found.

6. Dementia Praecox: The afflicted character will be quite uninterested in any undertaking when suffering from this form of madness. Nothing will seem worthwhile, and the individual will be continually filled with lassitude and a tremendous feeling of ennui. No matter how important the situation, it is 25% probable that the afflicted will choose to ignore it as meaningless to him or her.


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## Leopold (Oct 16, 2003)

ok then give them ranks in pick pocket or whatever it's called now and then give a will save whenever they see something shiny.

the rest is just fluff material put in the description.


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## BOZ (Oct 16, 2003)

actually, those "insanities" are what the monsters do _to_ people.  (but i think giving these guys some theif skills is not a half bad idea though).

for further reference on their capabilities, here is the 1E desciption for _find the path_, of which _lose the path_ is the opposite:

Find The Path (Divination) Reversible
Level: 6
Range: Touch
Duration: 1 turn/level
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 3 rounds
Saving Throw: None
Explanation/Description: By use of this spell, the cleric is enabled to find the shortest, most direct route that he or she is seeking, be it the way to or from or out of a locale. The locale can be outdoors or underground, a trap or even a maze spell. The spell will enable the cleric to select the correct direction which will eventually lead him or her to egress, the exact path to follow (or actions to take), and this knowledge will persist as long as the spell lasts, i.e. 1 turn for each level of experience of the cleric casting find the path. The spell frees the cleric, and those with him or her from a maze spell in a single melee round and will continue to do so as long as the spell lasts. The material component of this spell is a set of divination counters of the sort favored by the cleric - bones, ivory counters, sticks, carved runes, or whatever. The reverse, lose the path, makes the creature touched totally lost and unable to find its way for the duration of the spell, although it can be led, of course.

(1 turn - being 10 rounds - is about 1 minute)


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2003)

Cool critter!    I'd propose a Strength score of 12-13, since the original damage was 2-9, which to me sounds like 1d8+1.

I'd give him dwarf traits (stonecunning, etc).   Might I propose a treasure entry of standard coins, double items, standard goods to help signify the "equipped corpses" aspect of its 1E description?

Here's a first stab at the abilities:

*Rapping (Su)*  Rappers will hide in small corners of underground tunnels and make a constant, rhythmic tapping sound with their tools or weapons against the tunnel wall. This sound carries in a 120’ radius through the underground corridors and rooms; it is never very loud, but is annoying to listen to. Within the 120’ radius this tapping noise will increase the DC of Listen checks by +5.  Use of this ability is a standard action.

After listening to this tapping sound for longer than an hour, a creature must make a Will saving throw (DC 12 + rapper's Cha modifier), or else develop monomania (we'll have to determine its effects).  Regardless of the outcome of the original save, additional saves must be made each consecutive hour.

*Disorient (Su)*  A creature struck by any of the rapper’s attacks (natural or manufactured weapons) weapon or by the rapper itself must make a Will saving throw (DC 12 + rapper's Cha modifier) or become totally lost and unable to find its way for 24 hours, although it can be led, of course.  During this time the character will be unable to tell directions and must be led by hand or by force.  It is considered to automatically fail all Survival checks to determine direction or to track a creature, and it cannot find its way out of a _maze_ or similar spell.


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## BOZ (Oct 16, 2003)

ok, posted a working version in this new thread: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1174086#post1174086

tell me what you think!  change, fix, remove, add, whatever!

issues left to resolve:

damage reduction

skills & feats

CR

rapping ability: cure for monomania, and sleight of hand penalty for kleptomania


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ok, posted a working version in this new thread: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1174086#post1174086
> 
> tell me what you think!  change, fix, remove, add, whatever!
> 
> ...




It's looking good!   I'd go with remove curse to remove monomania.

I like DR 5/silver.  For skills, how about Appraise +5, Hide +7, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Profession (miner) +7, Spot +2, Survival +5.  (These are without ability modifiers or synergy and racial bonuses).

I think most people will be disappointed when they see the rapper.  They will probably be expecting a human with lots of bling-bling and scathing lyrics, not a dead dwarf.


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## BOZ (Oct 16, 2003)

i knew someone would make that joke sooner or later - thanks for not disappointing!


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## BOZ (Oct 16, 2003)

also for skills, don't forget that most of these guys would have been rogues or assassins in life.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> also for skills, don't forget that most of these guys would have been rogues or assassins in life.




Good point.  This should really be a template...there aren't too many 4th-level assassins roaming around these days.   Plus, then we could make the sample monster Parappa the Rapper.   

OK, try these skills instead:

Hide +7, Jump +5, Search +5, Spot +4, Tumble +7.

I skipped the usual Listen and Move Silently, since they are usually busy rapping while they work.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2003)

i'll work on this guy if i can find some time today; next creature will be the ghuuna, a gnoll shapeshifter.


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## the Jester (Oct 20, 2003)

Lookin' good!  I remember these guys from one of the first two Dragons I owned!    

One minor quibble- a round was a minute in 1e, so a turn was ten minutes long.


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## BOZ (Oct 20, 2003)

hold on... a round was a minute?  so in 60 seconds of action i could only take one action?  that doesn't sound right.  IIRC it wasn't even that way in 2E.

and BTW, this doesn't affect the conversion in any way, because the item i was mentioning it for turned out to be for a 24 hour period anyway.


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## BOZ (Oct 20, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ok, posted a working version in this new thread: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1174086#post1174086
> 
> tell me what you think!  change, fix, remove, add, whatever!
> 
> ...




fixed a few things in the entry, this is what i have left to do.


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## Leopold (Oct 20, 2003)

weapon focus, toughness, stonecunning for feats

CR: 3

rapping ability: similar to a confusion spell? or insanity?


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## BOZ (Oct 20, 2003)

ok, got the final version up.  the rapping would affect characters that were vulnerable to confusion or insanity effects, but this effect is a bit different.

ok, you know the drill by now... i need a description!


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ok, got the final version up.  the rapping would affect characters that were vulnerable to confusion or insanity effects, but this effect is a bit different.
> 
> ok, you know the drill by now... i need a description!




It looks good!   Here's a stab at the description:

_The source of the tapping appears to be a dwarf, pale-skinned and semi-translucent.  It wears filthy rags, covered in dust, and carries a well-worn heavy pick._


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## BOZ (Oct 20, 2003)

great!  next monster, the ghuuna!

GHUUNA

FREQUENCY: Very rare 
NO. APPEARING: 2-5 
ARMOR CLASS: 4 
MOVE: 12” 
HIT DICE: 6+6 
% IN LAIR: 15% 
TREASURE TYPE: B, Q (x2) 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite or 1 weapon 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-16 or by weapon type 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Diseased bite 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Cold iron or magic weapons needed to hit (immune to silver); surprised only on a 1 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: L (8' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
	Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VI/600 + 8/hp

Ghuuna (the form is singular and plural) are related to gnolls in much the same way that lycanthropes are related to humans. However, ghuuna are the result of a special quasi-lycanthropy created by Yeenoghu that affects only gnolls, causing them to shapechange into a hyaenodon form. Ghuuna are affected by stress and the phases of the moon in much the same manner that lycanthropes are.

In their normal (unchanged) form, ghuuna appear to be large gnolls. In this form they shun armor and usually carry swords as weapons. In hyaenodon form, ghuuna can deliver a crushing bite for 4-16 points. In addition, their bite will inflict "ghuunism" among gnolls in the same manner that lycanthropy is spread by regular were-creatures; humans, demi-humans, and humanoids (other than gnolls) who are bitten must save vs. poison or be affected as if by a cause disease spell, which can be cured by a cure disease spell or similar magic. In both forms, ghuuna have 90' infravision and acute senses of hearing and smell that act together to reduce their chances to be surprised.

Each ghuuna can command and control 2-8 hyenas or 1-4 hyaenodons, although they cannot summon them from afar. Any ghuuna encountered is 80% likely to be accompanied by 2 hyenas (70%) or 1 hyaenodon (30%) being kept as pets or guards.

For every 10 gnolls in a gnoll band there is a 5% chance for 2-5 ghuuna to be present, acting as leaders and protectors. Only gnoll shamans and strong chieftains have more "push" in a gnoll band than ghuuna do. Female ghuuna are nearly the only respected females in a gnoll band.

Gnoll shamans are able to use their powers to quest ghuuna for one day. The shaman's chance for success is equal to the chance of a cleric of equal level trying to turn wraiths. Each time this power is successfully used, 1-6 ghuuna are affected. Gnoll shamans may use this power once per day for each level of clerical experience they have.

Ghuuna may communicate with hyenas and hyaenodons, and can speak the usual languages a gnoll may know. Ghuuna keep slaves as gnolls do. Ghuuna may not become shamans or witch doctors. They rarely intentionally spread "ghuunism" among gnolls, preferring to be "the few and the proud."

Originally found in DRAGON Magazine #89 (“Creature Catalog”, September 1984, Ed Greenwood).



ok now, first thing's first, i want to know if you think this should be a template or not.  i don't know if there is enough variation found in gnolls to make this a worthwhile template, but if you all think so then i'll go ahead and make it a lycanthrope-like template.  otherwise, i'll write up a standard monster stat block.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2003)

I'm anxious for this one, since I already converted it and used it against my players.   I'm sure this needs alot of work, since I converted this shortly after 3E came out (my players are now approaching 20th level).   Maybe something can be salvaged from this conversion:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1197 


Edit (BOZ): i meant to post this link in the first place.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ok now, first thing's first, i want to know if you think this should be a template or not.  i don't know if there is enough variation found in gnolls to make this a worthwhile template, but if you all think so then i'll go ahead and make it a lycanthrope-like template.  otherwise, i'll write up a standard monster stat block.




Now, having revisited the ghuuna, and having three years of 3E/3.5 changes, I'd say it would probably work best as a variation on the lycanthrope template.

Plus, this way you can add it to flinds as well.


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## BOZ (Oct 20, 2003)

true dat, brotha.


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## the Jester (Oct 21, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> hold on... a round was a minute?  so in 60 seconds of action i could only take one action?  that doesn't sound right.  IIRC it wasn't even that way in 2E.
> 
> and BTW, this doesn't affect the conversion in any way, because the item i was mentioning it for turned out to be for a 24 hour period anyway.




Yup, the one-minute melee round was a source of constant consternation, and officially 2e's melee round was a minute long too.  (One of the issues with the 2e-3e conversions had to do with durations of spells that previously lasted 1 round/level.)  

The idea was that in a minute (round) the combatants take many attacks but only one or two have a real chance to strike home (as in a boxing match).  Speaking as someone who's fenced- well, granted I'm not in the greatest shape and all, but a twenty-minute swordfight is *HARD WORK* even without 60 lbs of gear on, and I'm sure we all remember how much longer fights used to be in 2e and 1e...

Not that it matters any.


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## BOZ (Oct 23, 2003)

sorry for the bit of delay.    before we really get going on the ghuuna, i realised we did not yet have a conversion of the hyaenodon!  so, get over here and work on that first: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?t=67093


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## BOZ (Oct 24, 2003)

now that that little bit is done, i can give you a preview of what i've done so far with the template.  

*Ghuuna*


CREATING A GHUUNA
“Ghuuna” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid with the gnoll subtype (referred to hereafter as the base creature).  Becoming a ghuuna is very much like multiclassing as an animal and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice.

Size and Type: The base creature’s type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype.  The ghuuna takes on the characteristics of a hyaenodon (referred to hereafter as the base animal).  
A ghuuna uses either the base creature’s or the base animal’s statistics and special abilities in addition to those described here.

Hit Dice and Hit Points:  Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal.  To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the ghuuna has in each form.

Speed: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the ghuuna is using.

Armor Class: The base creature’s natural armor bonus increases by +2 in both forms.

Base Attack/Grapple: Add the base attack bonus for the base animal to the base attack bonus for the base creature.  The ghuuna’s grapple bonus uses its attack bonus and modifiers for Strength and size depending on the ghuuna’s form.

Attacks: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the ghuuna is using.

Damage: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the ghuuna is in.

Special Attacks: A ghuuna retains the special attacks of the base creature or base animal, depending on which form it is using, and also gains the special attacks described below.
A ghuuna spellcaster cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components while in animal form.
Ghuunism (Su): 
Disease (Ex or Su?): Bite

Special Qualities: A ghuuna retains all the special qualities of the base creature and the base animal, and also gains those described below.
Alternate Form (Su):
Damage Reduction (Ex): A ghuuna in any form has damage reduction 5/cold iron or magic.
Darkvision (Ex): A ghuuna has darkvision at a range of 90 feet in any form.
Hyena Empathy (Ex): In any form, ghuunas can communicate and empathize with normal hyenas, dire hyenas, or hyaenodons.  This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as “friend,” “foe,” “flee,” and “attack.”
Immunity to Silver (Ex): A ghuuna takes no damage from silver weapons of any type.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): A ghuuna has low-light vision in any form.
Scent (Ex): A ghuuna has the scent ability in any form.

Base Save Bonuses: Add the base save bonuses of the base animal to the base save bonuses of the base creature.

Abilities: 

Skills:

Feats:

Environment: Same as either the base creature or base animal.

Organization: 

Challenge Rating:

Treasure: Standard.

Alignment: Usually chaotic evil

Advancement: By character class

Level Adjustment:


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## Leopold (Oct 27, 2003)

so we templating this thing?


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2003)

yes.    any comments so far?


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2003)

Here is an attempt at some of the missing stats.   I thought red ache may be appropriate for the disease, but we could create a new one instead.

Ghuunism (Su): Any creature with the gnoll subtype hit by a ghuuna's bite attack in animal or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or contract ghuunism. If the victim’s size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope the victim cannot contract lycanthropy from that lycanthrope. Unlike lycanthropes and the curse of lycanthropy, afflicted ghuunas can pass on ghuunism.

Disease (Ex): Red ache—bite, Fortitude DC 15, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d6 Strength. The save DC is Constitution-based.  Creatures with the gnoll subtype are unaffected by this disease; instead, they are subject to ghuunism (see above).

Alternate Form (Su):  A ghuuna can shift into animal form as though using the _polymorph_ spell on itself, though its gear is not affected, it does not regain hit points for changing form, and only the specific animal form indicated for the ghuuna can be assumed. It does not assume the ability scores of the animal, but instead adds the animal’s physical ability score modifiers to its own ability scores. A ghuuna also can assume a bipedal hybrid form with prehensile hands and animalistic features. 

Changing to or from animal or hybrid form is a standard action. A slain ghuuna reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead. Separated body parts retain their animal form, however. Afflicted ghuunas find this ability difficult to control (see Lycanthropy as an Affliction, below), but natural ghuunas have full control over this power

Abilities: All ghuunas gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form or hybrid form, a ghuuna's physical ability scores change from the base creature as follows:  Str +12, Dex +6, and Con +8.

In addition, a ghuuna may also gain an additional ability score increase by virtue of its extra Hit Dice.

Skills: A ghuuna gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) x 5, as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. (Animal is never its first Hit Die, though, and it does not gain quadruple skill points for any animal Hit Die.)  Hide, Listen, and Spot are class skills granted by its hyaenadom form. In any form, a ghuuna also has any racial skill bonuses of the base creature.  In hyaenodon form, a ghuuna has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth.

Feats: Add the hyaenodon's feats (Alertness, Run, Track) to the base creature’s. If this results in a ghuuna having the same feat twice, the ghuuna gains no additional benefit unless the feat normally can be taken more once, in which case the duplicated feat works as noted in the feat description. This process may give the ghuuna more feats than a character of its total Hit Dice would normally be entitled to; if this occurs, any “extra” feats are denoted as bonus feats.

It’s possible that a ghuuna cannot meet the prerequisites for all its feats when in humanoid form. If this occurs, the ghuuna still has the feats, but cannot use them when in humanoid form. A ghuuna receives Iron Will as a bonus feat.


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2003)

ok, posted in homebrews.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2003)

The template looks good.  Are we ready to create the sample ghuuna and move on?


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2003)

yes    note that we will only need a humanoid and animal form.


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## Leopold (Oct 28, 2003)

humanoid: gnoll base
animal: dire hyena?


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2003)

that's why we converted the hyaenodon leo.


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## Graf (Oct 29, 2003)

are we doing the noble illithid next?
(asks the guy who has contributed nothing so far )


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2003)

*Ghuuna, Hyaenodon Form*
Large Humanoid (Gnoll, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 plus 5d8+25 (63 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+15
Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d8+8)
Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d8+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Disease, ghuunism, trip
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 5/cold iron or magic, darkvision 90 ft., Hyena Empathy, low-light vision, immunity to silver, scent
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 16, Con 21, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 8
Skills: Hide +4*, Listen +3, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Power Attack, Run, Track (B)
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pack (2-5 plus 1-2 hyenas or 1 hyaenodon per ghuuna), or band (1-10 ghuuna plus 10-100 gnolls)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4

Alternate Form (Su): A ghuuna can assume a bipedal hybrid form or the form of a hyaenodon.

Disease (Ex): Red ache—bite, Fortitude DC 15, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d6 Strength. The save DC is Constitution-based. Humanoids with the gnoll subtype are unaffected by this disease; instead, they are subject to ghuunism (see below).

Ghuunism (Su): Any humanoid with the gnoll subtype hit by a ghuuna's bite attack in animal form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or contract ghuunism. If the victim’s size is not within one size category of the ghuuna the victim cannot contract ghuunism from that ghuuna. Unlike lycanthropes and the curse of lycanthropy, afflicted ghuuna can pass on ghuunism.

Hyena Empathy (Ex): In any form, ghuuna can communicate and empathize with normal hyenas, dire hyenas, or hyaenodons. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as “friend,” “foe,” “flee,” and “attack.”

Trip (Ex): A ghuuna that hits with its bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+8 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the hyaenodon

Skills: *In hyaenodon form, a ghuuna has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth.

The ghuuna presented here is based on a standard gnoll, using the following base ability scores: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8.


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## BOZ (Oct 29, 2003)

Graf said:
			
		

> are we doing the noble illithid next?
> (asks the guy who has contributed nothing so far )




in another thread - i'll get to that in time.  

shade, i'll have a reply for you after this morning's meeting...  *sigh*


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## BOZ (Oct 30, 2003)

reworked your sample creature a little better... does this add up properly?

SAMPLE GHUUNA

Here is an example of a ghuuna using a gnoll as the base creature and a hyaenodon as the base animal.

*Ghuuna, Gnoll Form*
Medium Humanoid (Gnoll, Shapeshifter)
HD: 2d8+2 plus 5d8+20 (58 hp) 
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
AC: 17 (+3 natural, +2 leather armor, +2 heavy steel shield), touch 10, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+6
Attack: Battleaxe +3 melee (1d8+2/X3) or shortbow +1 ranged (1d6/X3)
Full Attack: Battleaxe +3 melee (1d8+2/X3) or shortbow +1 ranged (1d6/X3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: ---
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 5/cold iron or magic, darkvision 90 ft, hyena empathy, immune to silver, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +8 Ref +4 Will +1
Abilities: Str 15 Dex 10 Con 13 Int 8 Wis 13 Chr 8
Skills: Hide +3, Listen +5, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Iron Will (B), Power Attack, Run, Track (B)

Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pack (2-5 plus 1-2 hyenas or 1 hyaenodon per ghuuna), or band (1-10 ghuuna plus 10-100 gnolls)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4


*Ghuuna, Hyaenodon Form*
Large Humanoid (Gnoll, Shapeshifter)
HD: 2d8+2 plus 5d8+25 (58 hp) 
Initiative: +3
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares)
AC: 20 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+16
Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d8+8)
Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d8+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Disease, ghuunism, trip
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 5/cold iron or magic, darkvision 90 ft, hyena empathy, immune to silver, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +12 Ref +7 Will +3
Abilities: Str 27 Dex 16 Con 21 Int 8 Wis 13 Chr 8
Skills: Hide +6*, Listen +5, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Iron Will (B), Power Attack, Run, Track (B)

Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pack (2-5 plus 1-2 hyenas or 1 hyaenodon per ghuuna), or band (1-10 ghuuna plus 10-100 gnolls)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4

Ghuunas in gnoll form are larger than average gnolls, and tend to intimidate their lesser cousins.

COMBAT
In animal form, ghuuna attack foes with their savage bite, trying to infect them with disease.  In either form, ghuuna fight like a pack, using numbers to their advantage.

Alternate Form (Su): A ghuuna can assume the form of a hyaenodon.

Disease (Ex): Red ache; bite, Fortitude DC 15, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d6 Strength. The save DC is Constitution-based. Humanoids with the gnoll subtype are unaffected by this disease; instead, they are subject to ghuunism (see below).

Ghuunism (Su): Any humanoid with the gnoll subtype hit by a ghuuna's bite attack in animal form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or contract ghuunism. If the victim’s size is not within one size category of the ghuuna the victim cannot contract ghuunism from that ghuuna. Unlike lycanthropes and the curse of lycanthropy, afflicted ghuuna can pass on ghuunism.

Hyena Empathy (Ex): Communicate with hyenas, dire hyenas, and hyaenodons, and a +4 racial bonus on Charisma based checks against hyenas, dire hyenas, and hyaenodons.

Trip (Ex): A ghuuna that hits with its bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+11 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the hyaenodon

Skills: *In hyaenodon form, a ghuuna has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2003)

D'oh!  I based hp on 5.5 per HD instead of 4.5.  I've been advancing too many outsiders in my campaign lately!

Your stats look fine.  Here's a stab at the hybrid form:

*Ghuuna, Hybrid Form*
Large Humanoid (Gnoll, Shapeshifter)
HD: 2d8+2 plus 5d8+25 (58 hp) 
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
AC: 20 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+16
Attack: Battleaxe +11 melee (1d8+8/X3); or claw +11 melee (1d6+8)
Full Attack: Claw +11 melee (1d6+8) and battleaxe +6 melee (1d8+4/X3) and bite +11 melee (1d8+4) or 2 claws +13 melee (1d6+8) and bite +11 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Disease, ghuunism, trip
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 5/cold iron or magic, darkvision 90 ft, hyena empathy, immune to silver, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +12 Ref +7 Will +3
Abilities: Str 27 Dex 16 Con 21 Int 8 Wis 13 Chr 8
Skills: Hide +6*, Listen +5, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Iron Will (B), Power Attack, Run, Track (B)

Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pack (2-5 plus 1-2 hyenas or 1 hyaenodon per ghuuna), or band (1-10 ghuuna plus 10-100 gnolls)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4


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## BOZ (Oct 30, 2003)

naw, these guys don't get a hybrid form.    but, they are immune to silver so that must count for something.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2003)

Um, oh yeah.    

In the Alternate Form ability, you have Alternate Form (Su) listed twice.

So, on to the next critter?


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## BOZ (Oct 30, 2003)

yes, but first i need a description for the ghuuna in gnoll form.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2003)

Take your pick from the following:

_This bulky humanoid stands nearly 8 feet tall, and wears no armor. It has gray skin, a furry body, and a head like a hyena's with a reddish-gray mane.  A savage intensity burns in its eyes._

or the "I've seen a gnoll before" version..

_This bulky gnoll stands nearly 8 feet tall, and wears no armor.  A savage intensity burns in its eyes._

Also, since the description states that ghuunas in humanoid form usually carry swords, should we change our sample to use a greatsword instead of a battleaxe?


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## BOZ (Oct 30, 2003)

naaahh... he's a rebel and he never never does what he's told.


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## Leopold (Oct 30, 2003)

how'd you come up with the LA of +4?


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## BOZ (Oct 30, 2003)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66577

i patterend the template after the lycantrhope template.  it advises the base creature's LA +3.  gnolls have LA +1, ergo a typical ghuuna would have +4.


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

next, up:

ALCOR
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 9" walking, 24" skiing
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: K,M
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 tail strike; or, 2 claws and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-12 or 1-3/1-3/l-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Tail strike, possible missile fire
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal to low
ALIGNMENT Neutral
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: II/65 +3/hp

The alcor is a distant relative of the lizard man that has adapted itself to life in a frigid climate. It has earned the nickname “the skier” because of the mode of travel it frequently uses. By balancing itself on its large, flat tail, the alcor can glide across snow and ice (downhill only; no self-propulsion is involved) at a 24” movement rate. It can also move fairly quickly on its legs, but generally only uses this form of locomotion for short distances or if traversing flat or rising terrain.
The alcor is carnivorous and primarily concerned with obtaining food. However, a few groups (10% chance for each small band encountered) are composed of relatively intelligent specimens that have learned to fashion crude weapons. These alcors carry small darts and javelins fashioned from sharp stones and wood (doing 1-3 and 1-6 hp damage respectively) for use as missile weapons. The more intelligent sorts will also carry spears for use in close combat. When charging to attack using its skiing movement, the alcor has a +2 bonus to hit and does double damage with the spear. When the charge is complete, the creature will usually drop its weapon and engage its opponent with its claws.
The alcor’s razor-sharp claws do 1-3 hp damage per hit, and it can bite for 1-4 hp damage. These attacks may be used against a single foe or divided between two targets in a round. The creature can also attack with its tail (when not skiing) at the rate of one tail-slap every two rounds. A strike by the tail does 3-12 hp damage, and a target hit by the tail must save versus petrification or be knocked down. Opponents of size S have a -4 penalty to this saving throw, and those of size L receive a bonus of +5. A target that is knocked down forfeits any attack(s) it would otherwise have been entitled to in the remainder of the current round, and also cannot attack during the following round while it regains its feet. All attacks against a target that has been knocked down are made at +4 to the attacker’s chance “to hit.”
If an alcor chooses to attack with its tail, it cannot use claw or bite attacks in the same round. If it knocks down an opponent, it will attack that foe in preference to any others during the following round. 
The two types of alcors will never be found in the same group or in the same lair, but if weapon-users and the less intelligent variety are somehow brought together they will work in concert against a common enemy, thereafter going their separate ways again.


here's a 3.0 conversion of the Alcor by Cildarith: http://pub123.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm31.showMessageRange?topicID=295.topic&index=27




here are some preliminary stats for the alcor:

*Alcor*
Medium Humanoid (Reptilian)
HD: 3d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares)
AC: 15 (+X size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+X
Attack: Slam +X melee (1dX+X)
Full Attack: Tail slap +X melee (3d4+X); or 2 claws +X melee (1d3+X) and 1 bite +X melee (1d4+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Knock down
Special Qualities: Skiing
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con X Int 4 Wis X Chr X
Skills: ---
Feats: ---

Environment: Any cold land
Organization: 2-8
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: 50% coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X



COMBAT

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #101 ("Creature Catalog III," September 1985, Michael Persinger).


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2003)

Sweet!  I dig the alcor.  I used some of these guys and the amitoks in a cold adventure in my campaign.

For the skiing ability--According to the A&EG, skis allow full movement across snow and icy surfaces but cannot be used at all on any other terrain.  Downhill speed can be as a run (x4) on slight grades or as a run (x5) on severe grades.

Is there a reason to state "50% coins; 50% goods; 50% items" instead of "Half standard"?


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

that's how lizardfolk have it, so i copied it.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that's how lizardfolk have it, so i copied it.




Fair enough!

I'm thinking the alcor needs a high Dex, maybe around the 18-19 range, and a significant racial bonus to Balance checks (probably +8).  

Oh, and I've got a request for a future critter:  the Dyll from Dragon #55.  This thing was a swarm before swarms were a subtype.  Way ahead of its time!


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

ok, but i do beleive qstor asked for the duleep/living web first.


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

are you sure that Dex isn't a little high?  maybe something in the 15-16 range would be more suitable.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ok, but i do beleive qstor asked for the duleep/living web first.




I'm in no hurry.  We have plenty of monsters to convert.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> are you sure that Dex isn't a little high?  maybe something in the 15-16 range would be more suitable.




I'm cool with 15-16.  I was thinking since the thing relies so much on balance, it would need a good Dex.  But 15-16 ain't bad.


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

keep in mind, it would have skill ranks, a Dex bonus of 2 or 3, and whatever extra bonus we want to give it.    i think i'll land it with a Dex of 15, which should be more than enough.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> keep in mind, it would have skill ranks, a Dex bonus of 2 or 3, and whatever extra bonus we want to give it.    i think i'll land it with a Dex of 15, which should be more than enough.




Cool.  But give it a 40 Strength.    

(An alcor is standing behind me, and he's of the weapon-wielding variety).


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

seriously, should we change the Str 13 and Con 13 of the lizardfolk, or is that just fine for the alcor too?


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2003)

I think that we can get by with the lizardman's Str and Con.

I've noticed a serious problem with arctic creatures lately...most of them say that they've adapted to arctic climates, but have nothing to show for it.  Therefore, they still have to make the same Fort saves against extreme cold temperatures as a desert-dwelling critter would if he vacationed to the cold lands.

Sometimes these critters don't really need cold immunity or resistance to cold 5, but they definitely need something.   I'd suggest the following:

Arctic Adaptation (Ex):  An alcor does not need to make Fortitude saves to avoid taking nonlethal damage in conditions between 40 degrees and -20 degrees.  In conditions of extreme cold (below -20 degrees) they must Fortitude saves like any other creature, but gain a +4 racial bonus on this save.

Whaddya think?


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2003)

i like it!  i'll add that in...

OK, let’s break this guy down a bit.  



> The alcor is a distant relative of the lizard man that has adapted itself to life in a frigid climate.




not sure if we should use “any cold land” or limit it to hills and mountains to give its skiing full effect.



> It has earned the nickname “the skier” because of the mode of travel it frequently uses. By balancing itself on its large, flat tail, the alcor can glide across snow and ice (downhill only; no self-propulsion is involved) at a 24” movement rate. It can also move fairly quickly on its legs, but generally only uses this form of locomotion for short distances or if traversing flat or rising terrain.




I’ll see what to do about this.  Shade said earlier “For the skiing ability--According to the A&EG, skis allow full movement across snow and icy surfaces but cannot be used at all on any other terrain. Downhill speed can be as a run (x4) on slight grades or as a run (x5) on severe grades.”  I have them at being able to ski at 60 feet/round, but x4 is even better.    I do think there should be an entry in the Combat section, as not every has the A&EG to reference.  



> The alcor is carnivorous and primarily concerned with obtaining food. However, a few groups (10% chance for each small band encountered) are composed of relatively intelligent specimens that have learned to fashion crude weapons. These alcors carry small darts and javelins fashioned from sharp stones and wood (doing 1-3 and 1-6 hp damage respectively) for use as missile weapons. The more intelligent sorts will also carry spears for use in close combat. When charging to attack using its skiing movement, the alcor has a +2 bonus to hit and does double damage with the spear. When the charge is complete, the creature will usually drop its weapon and engage its opponent with its claws.




what I may do is put weapon attacks in the stat block, and simply add some flavor text about tribes that don’t use weapons.  I believe there is a standard charge action in the game now, but should I add anything relating to it using a spear to charge down a mountain or something?



> The alcor’s razor-sharp claws do 1-3 hp damage per hit, and it can bite for 1-4 hp damage. These attacks may be used against a single foe or divided between two targets in a round. The creature can also attack with its tail (when not skiing) at the rate of one tail-slap every two rounds. A strike by the tail does 3-12 hp damage, and a target hit by the tail must save versus petrification or be knocked down. Opponents of size S have a -4 penalty to this saving throw, and those of size L receive a bonus of +5. A target that is knocked down forfeits any attack(s) it would otherwise have been entitled to in the remainder of the current round, and also cannot attack during the following round while it regains its feet. All attacks against a target that has been knocked down are made at +4 to the attacker’s chance “to hit.”
> If an alcor chooses to attack with its tail, it cannot use claw or bite attacks in the same round. If it knocks down an opponent, it will attack that foe in preference to any others during the following round.




again, I believe there is some kind of standard knockdown action that would probably work here as well.  What I need to know is if there should be a special bonus to some other kind of notation in the combat text.



> The two types of alcors will never be found in the same group or in the same lair, but if weapon-users and the less intelligent variety are somehow brought together they will work in concert against a common enemy, thereafter going their separate ways again.




flavor text.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure if we should use “any cold land” or limit it to hills and mountains to give its skiing full effect.




Cold hills and mountains.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I do think there should be an entry in the Combat section, as not every has the A&EG to reference.




Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> what I may do is put weapon attacks in the stat block, and simply add some flavor text about tribes that don’t use weapons.  I believe there is a standard charge action in the game now, but should I add anything relating to it using a spear to charge down a mountain or something?




I'd add that alcor's deal double damage with a spear on a charge, since spears don't normally grant this ability (only lances do, I believe).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> again, I believe there is some kind of standard knockdown action that would probably work here as well.  What I need to know is if there should be a special bonus to some other kind of notation in the combat text.




I though there was one as well, but can't seem to find a monster with one.  The closest I find are trample and improved overrun.  The Knock Down feat from Sword & Fist might give us a better mechanic to work with:

"Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee with a single attack, you may make a trip attack as a free action against the same target. Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats."


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## Leopold (Nov 3, 2003)

Did some LA's and got this:

Rapper: LA of +2 ECL of 6. This prolly needs to go higher as it doesn't take into account the fact that the rapper is undead but i think it'll fly. it's not THAT powerful of a creature to mess around with.

Feral Slasher:LA +2 (Cohort)  ECL of 4.

Hyenadon: LA +2 (Cohort) ECL of 9.

Iron Man: LA +3 ECL 6

Colchilin: LA +4 ECL 8


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2003)

i'll give more thought to these guys later.


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## BOZ (Nov 5, 2003)

started a little discussion thread for this: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1206232#post1206232


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## Liolel (Nov 5, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> again, I believe there is some kind of standard knockdown action that would probably work here as well.  What I need to know is if there should be a special bonus to some other kind of notation in the combat text.




Standerd knockdown type effect while different in name would be a trip.  Example of a monster trip attack ability



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.




So use the mechanics of that, but change the name to knockdown and make it with the tail not the mouth. Thats my suggestions.


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## BOZ (Nov 5, 2003)

how about these?

Downhill Charge (Ex): When an alcor makes a charge while skiing downhill, its attack deals double damage in addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge. 

Tail Sweep (Ex): This special attack allows an alcor to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 5 feet, extending from an intersection on the edge of the alcor’s space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are Large or smaller. A tail sweep allows for a Trip Attack without provoking an attack of opportunity. Rather than making an opposed Strength check, any affected creatures can attempt a Reflex save to avoid the Trip (DC 11). Successfully avoiding the Trip does not allow for the opponent to make a Trip Attack of their own.

Skiing (Ex): By balancing itself on its large, flat tail, the alcor can glide rapidly across snow and ice while moving downhill.  It can move as a run (x4) on slight grades (less than 45 degrees) or as a run (x5) on severe grades (45 degrees or more).


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## Shade (Nov 6, 2003)

So, to summarize what we have so far, plus a few additions (mostly copied from lizardfolk):

Alcor
Medium Humanoid (Reptilian)
HD: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares)
AC: 15 (+2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+3
Attack: Tail slap +4 melee (3d4+1); or spear +3 melee (1d8+1/x3); or dart +4 ranged (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Tail slap +4 melee (3d4+1); or 2 claws +4 melee (1d3+1) and 1 bite +2 melee (1d4); or spear +3 melee (1d8+1/x3); or dart +4 ranged (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Downhill charge, tail sweep
Special Qualities: Arctic adaptation, skiing
Saves: Fort +2 Ref +5 Will +1
Abilities: Str 13 Dex 15 Con 13 Int 4 Wis 10 Cha 10
Skills: Balance +8 (6 ranks, +2 Dex, and any racial bonus we give it)
Feats: Multiattack, Weapon Finesse

Environment: Any cold land
Organization: Solitary, pair, or band (2-8)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: 50% coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X


COMBAT

Downhill Charge (Ex): When an alcor makes a charge while skiing downhill, its attack deals double damage in addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge. 

Tail Sweep (Ex): This special attack allows an alcor to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 5 feet, extending from an intersection on the edge of the alcor’s space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are Large or smaller. A tail sweep allows for a Trip Attack without provoking an attack of opportunity. Rather than making an opposed Strength check, any affected creatures can attempt a Reflex save to avoid the Trip (DC 11). Successfully avoiding the Trip does not allow for the opponent to make a Trip Attack of their own.

Arctic Adaptation (Ex): An alcor does not need to make Fortitude saves to avoid taking nonlethal damage in conditions between 40 degrees and -20 degrees. In conditions of extreme cold (below -20 degrees) they must Fortitude saves like any other creature, but gain a +4 racial bonus on this save.

Skiing (Ex): By balancing itself on its large, flat tail, the alcor can glide rapidly across snow and ice while moving downhill. It can move as a run (x4) on slight grades (less than 45 degrees) or as a run (x5) on severe grades (45 degrees or more).

Skills:  Alcors receive a +X racial bonus on Balance checks.

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #101 ("Creature Catalog III," September 1985, Michael Persinger).


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## BOZ (Nov 6, 2003)

i merged your suggestions with my working copy and posted them it in homebrews - take a look!


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## Shade (Nov 6, 2003)

It looks good.    

I'd suggest adding after the Int score:  (9 for weapon-users)

Here's a stab at the descripton.  I didn't see mention of its coloration, so I assumed they'd be light blue or white to better fit into their habitat.

_This tall, pale-blue-scaled humanoid looks like a cross between a powerfully built human and a lizard. Its most distinguishing feature is its large, flat tail._

An alcor is usually 6 to 7 feet tall with white or pale blue scales. Its large, flat tail is 3 to 4 feet long, and nearly 2 feet wide. An alcor can weigh from 200 to 250 pounds.

Alcors speak Draconic.


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## Leopold (Nov 6, 2003)

2 Hd +1 La=+3 Ecl


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2003)

ok, the only thing i see remaining is "Alcors as characters".  what should be their favored class - i say either ranger, druid, or barbarian.    it need not be druid simply because lizardfolk are - there is not necessarily any indication that alcor also worship semuanya.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2003)

I like barbarian, since they are generally rather primitive and their low Intelligence scores won't make them very skilled rangers.


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2003)

tru dat!


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2003)

ok, alcor is posted.    how is it?


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## Leopold (Nov 9, 2003)

looks good...make sure you note that the LA is for the weapon weilding smarter ones.


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## BOZ (Nov 10, 2003)

why would the LA be different?


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## Leopold (Nov 10, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> why would the LA be different?





because usually the stupid ones with INT of 4 usually aren't playable as PC's. A 9 allows a -2 modifier to the INT score instead of a whopping -6.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2003)

Looks great.


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## BOZ (Nov 11, 2003)

Actually, I think I’m going to do the dyll before the living web, as this is something new for us.  This one was designed to be a swarm, so here is our first Swarm creature!  


Dyll
 Created by Ed Greenwood 
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 30-300
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 6'/18"
HIT DICE: 1-3 hit points
% IN LAIR: 45%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (4-8 inches long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The bloodsucking swarms of the dyll occasionally descend upon herds of cattle or small settlements, and are greatly feared. Dyll are small, leech-like creatures. Teardrop-shaped and glossy silver in color, they wriggle in the manner of worms when on the ground, but prefer to fly upon their rubbery “wings,” darting about with great maneuverability (Flight Class A).
Dyll locate their prey by sensing vibrations, by, smell, and by homing in on sources of heat. These senses act in combination, and are effective up to a range of 6". Dyll swarms will attack creatures of any size, surrounding their victims in a blinding, hampering cloud. Creatures in the cloud attack at -1 “to hit” and are unable to read spell books, scrolls, or inscriptions, for these are obscured. Such a swarm will always contain at least 30 dyll and perhaps as many as 100. Groups of more than 100 dyll are extremely rare, and if such a large group attacks it will always form at least two swarms. 
A swarm can hamper as many as three human-sized victims at a time, if they are within 5 feet of each other. Within the swarm, from 2-24 dyll will attempt to strike at each victim every round. Solitary dyll will attack only motionless (i.e., sleeping or disabled) creatures.
A dyll is covered with thousands of microscopic, hollow spines. Using these, it sucks 1-3 hit points worth of blood from a victim each round. The initial strike of the dyll does 1 point of damage as it attaches itself. It begins draining blood on the round thereafter.
A dyll gains strength from the blood it ingests, at the rate of 1 hit point for each 2 points of blood-draining damage it causes. It will remain attached and continue to drain blood until it is killed or until it reaches 9 hit points, whereupon it will loosen its grip and fly away.
Dyll typically lair in rocky areas or caverns, usually near water where creatures come to drink. Such lairs often contain the drained husks of past victims, and any treasure borne in by those unfortunates.
One dyll in every 10 creatures will be able to cast a Sleep spell affecting creatures with up to 3 hit dice when attacking a victim. If its initial strike is successful, the spell is cast. Sleep spells cast by dyll striking in the same round are cumulative; thus, a pair of dyll may strike and sleep a creature of up to 6 hit dice, three dyll can affect a creature of 9 hit  dice, and so on.

Dragon Magazine #55 (“Dragon’s Bestiary,” November 1981, Ed Greenwood)


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2003)

Sweet!  Here's an initial attempt at a stat block:

Diminutive Magical Beast (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), fly 50 ft. (perfect)
AC: X (+4 size, +X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-
Attack: Swarm (1d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (1d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Blood drain, distraction, _sleep_
Special Qualities: Blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., immune to weapon damage, scent, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 2, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 6 total
Feats: 2
Environment: Any ?
Organization: Solitary or cloud (2–4 swarms)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: -

I chose the magical beast type since it could cast sleep.  By the conversion guidelines, it should have an AC of 13.   However, this would require a Dex penalty, since it gains +4 for size.   I don't really picture these guys as having poor Dexterity, so I'd suggest bumping the AC.  

I picked 3 HD because the bat swarm has 3 HD, and a bat seemed comparable in size to the dyll.

Whaddya think?


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## BOZ (Nov 13, 2003)

> I chose the magical beast type since it could cast sleep.



sounds about right.  


> By the conversion guidelines, it should have an AC of 13. However, this would require a Dex penalty, since it gains +4 for size. I don't really picture these guys as having poor Dexterity, so I'd suggest bumping the AC.



absolutely right.  I don’t have a slavish devotion to old stats, even though i want conversions to be “true” to the original.  If a stat just doesn’t make sense now, it gots to go.  



> I picked 3 HD because the bat swarm has 3 HD, and a bat seemed comparable in size to the dyll.



good enough?


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2003)

> Dyll locate their prey by sensing vibrations, by, smell, and by homing in on sources of heat.




is there a flying version of tremorsense (or is that the blindsense)?  is there a heat sense?



> A dyll is covered with thousands of microscopic, hollow spines. Using these, it sucks 1-3 hit points worth of blood from a victim each round. The initial strike of the dyll does 1 point of damage as it attaches itself. It begins draining blood on the round thereafter.




so maybe for its blood drain ability, it drains 1-3 Con every round?



> A dyll gains strength from the blood it ingests, at the rate of 1 hit point for each 2 points of blood-draining damage it causes. It will remain attached and continue to drain blood until it is killed or until it reaches 9 hit points, whereupon it will loosen its grip and fly away.




not sure how to handle this part.  i guess it gains HP for every 1/2 point of Con drain?  ooh man, this would make these things so naaasty...



> One dyll in every 10 creatures will be able to cast a Sleep spell affecting creatures with up to 3 hit dice when attacking a victim. If its initial strike is successful, the spell is cast. Sleep spells cast by dyll striking in the same round are cumulative; thus, a pair of dyll may strike and sleep a creature of up to 6 hit dice, three dyll can affect a creature of 9 hit  dice, and so on.




even nastier...


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> is there a flying version of tremorsense (or is that the blindsense)?  is there a heat sense?




I believe that blindsense is supposed to cover it all.  I'd give it scent, too.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> so maybe for its blood drain ability, it drains 1-3 Con every round?




I like that.   I'd suggest that we don't require it to make grapple checks first (like most monsters with blood drain), as it would never succeed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure how to handle this part.  i guess it gains HP for every 1/2 point of Con drain?  ooh man, this would make these things so naaasty...




Nasty, but reasonable.   We might want to incorporate this part as well:  "It will remain attached and continue to drain blood until it is killed or until it reaches 9 hit points, whereupon it will loosen its grip and fly away."

Here's how the stirge entry words it:

Blood Drain (Ex): A stirge drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. Once it has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the stirge’s appetite has been sated, the stirge detaches and seeks a new target.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> even nastier...




Very.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2003)

this should take care of that problem:

Blood Drain (Ex): A dyll swarm drains blood, dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn in the same square as a victim. Once it has dealt 10 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the swarm’s appetite has been sated, the swarm flies off and seeks a new target.

_*Sleep (Sp)*_: A dyll swarm that begins its turn in the same square as a victim may cause the creature to sleep, as the spell, on a failed save (DC X).  If this effect is used more than once on the same creature in the same round, its effects are cumulative and thus the dyll may affect creatures with more than 4 Hit Dice.  The save DC is Charisma(?)-based.

(Rejuvinate?) (Ex): A dyll swarm gains hit points from the blood it drains, at a rate of 1 hit point for every 2 points of Constitution drained.  Extra hit points beyond its normal maximum are temporary.  (this should probably be reworded, but it’s only my first thought)


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> this should take care of that problem:
> 
> Blood Drain (Ex): A dyll swarm drains blood, dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn in the same square as a victim. Once it has dealt 10 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the swarm’s appetite has been sated, the swarm flies off and seeks a new target.




Looks good!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> _*Sleep (Sp)*_: A dyll swarm that begins its turn in the same square as a victim may cause the creature to sleep, as the spell, on a failed save (DC X).  If this effect is used more than once on the same creature in the same round, its effects are cumulative and thus the dyll may affect creatures with more than 4 Hit Dice.  The save DC is Charisma(?)-based.




I think Charisma-based is appropriate, since it is spell-like.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> (Rejuvinate?) (Ex): A dyll swarm gains hit points from the blood it drains, at a rate of 1 hit point for every 2 points of Constitution drained.  Extra hit points beyond its normal maximum are temporary.  (this should probably be reworded, but it’s only my first thought)




I like it.   I wouldn't use the term Rejuvenate, as that is the ability for ghosts to reform after destruction.   Maybe you can just roll this into the blood drain ability, similar to the vampire spawn:

Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire spawn can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round. On each such successful drain attack, the vampire spawn gains 5 temporary hit points.

We could extrapolate from this to get this:

Blood Drain (Ex): A dyll swarm drains blood, dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn in the same square as a victim. On each such successful drain attack, the dyll swarm gains hit points, at a rate of 1 hit point for every 2 points of Constitution drained.  Extra hit points beyond its normal maximum are temporary hit points.  Once it has dealt 10 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the swarm’s appetite has been sated, the swarm flies off and seeks a new target.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2003)

posting in homebrews.  

ok, now we need some ability scores, and skills and feats.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2003)

The dyll is coming along nicely.   Here's my take on abilities.  I compared the viper swarms and the centipede swarms to get a basis, since to me these are the most comparable to a leech-like creature.

Viper:  Str 1, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Centipede:  Str 1, Dex 19, Con 8, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2

So, for the dyll, I'd suggest:  Str 1, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.

For skills, I'd go with Spot and Listen.

For feats, I'd probably go with Alertness and Lightning Reflexes.   Assigning feats to swarms is interesting.  They don't benefit from most of them.  I looked at some of the other swarms, and they have Weapon Finesse, which is funny since swarms don't make attack rolls.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2003)

odd, i was just thinking about how weapon finesse wouldn't help a swarm.  

ok, edited the stats... do we need anything else there or is it time to move on?


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2003)

We just need the DCs for sleep (11) and distraction (11).  Not too tough, eh?

Maybe it needs Ability Focus (sleep).


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2003)

good idea.    switch it out for alertness i think.


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2003)

is that all?


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> is that all?




I think so, but I'd like to see it posted in Homebrews before I can say for sure.


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## BOZ (Nov 19, 2003)

most recent version posted.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2003)

It looks good...I'd say that's a wrap!


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## BOZ (Nov 19, 2003)

ok, onto the living web/duleep...


Dragon 89:

DULEEP

FREQUENCY. Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVE: 6”
HIT DICE: 1 ½ -6
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 shock
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Lightning bolt
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Many immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (varies)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: II to V / 34 + 1/hp to 425 + 6/hp

Duleeps are small, amorphous creatures that resemble thick grey sheets, wisps, and filaments of dusty cobwebs. They are nomadic omnivores found in subterranean and wilderness areas, preferring stony surroundings such as caverns or ruins. They can sense the presence of other duleeps, vibrations, and variations in the heat of their surroundings very keenly to a maximum range of 8'. A duleep spends its life in an endless hunt for plant life, carrion, and live prey. It will wait motionless to drop onto or be blundered into by creatures it senses nearby.

Duleeps seem to flow over surfaces, moving like caterpillars on millions of tiny filaments, and may fuse together into larger creatures. They are unaffected by fire, water, heat, or cold attacks. Blows from edged weapons do full damage to these creatures, but when hit they will split into two smaller wisps, each of which will continue to advance upon prey (count each duleep "fragment" as having half the "parent's" remaining hit points, rounding fractions up). Duleeps attack instinctively and cannot be subdued or repelled by fear, repulsion, or similar spells. Blunt weapons do half damage to Duleeps the filaments of their bodies stretch and yield to absorb some of the shock of the blow.

Duleeps convert ingested matter into electrical energy, which they use to aid them in movement and to stun or slay prey, such as small rodents. The touch of a duleep is like a shocking grasp - the electrical shock does at least 1-4 points of damage per round (1 -6 if the duleep is of 3-5 HD, and 2-8 damage for a 6 HD type) to any creature whose bare skin or conductive armor or weaponry comes into contact with a duleep.

Duleep may also fire a miniature lightning bolt (2 " range, 3-12 damage) up to twice per turn; one with less than 9 hit points (or one that has been reduced to 9 hp or less) can only unleash one bolt per turn. All duleep fragments have this ability, so a duleep separated into two smaller ones may unleash two such attacks. Note that separation occurs only as a result of an opponent's attack or physical situation - a duleep cannot deliberately split into smaller wisps. Duleeps absorb all electrical energy, magical or natural, and will permanently gain one extra hit die for every 8 hp of electrical energy they absorb (the hit points gained from the new hit die are randomly determined), causing them to grow visibly. Duleeps move and act independently, but they can sense the direction and size of other duleeps within 8", and one will attempt to join with another wisp if the former is reduced to 8 hp or less (adding its hit points and hit dice to those of the larger creature, up to a 6 HD maximum).

Duleeps may climb the walls and ceilings of any material and texture; they never slip, and may grasp a surface so strongly that they cannot be removed by any physical or magical attack that fails to slay the creature.

Duleeps have no visible sensory organs or specialized body parts and appear to consist of colonies of microscopic, identical cells with limited sentience, highly developed locomotive and sensory faculties, and the ability to convert organic matter to electrical energy.


MC3:

Web, Living

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Caverns, ruins
FREQUENCY:	Very rare
ORGANIZATION:	Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Any
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE:	½ to 6
THAC0:	1/2 to 2 HD:	19
	3-4 HD: 17
	5-6 HD: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS:	1
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	 See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Lightning
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (1” – 7”)
MORALE:	Average (9-10)
XP VALUE:	650 to 2,000

Living webs, also known as carnivorous webs or duleep, are omnivores that roam caverns and ruins.

Living are small, amorphous creatures that resemble thick gray sheets, filaments, and filaments of dusty cobwebs. They lack visible sensory organs and specialized body parts. They appear to consist of colonies of microscopic, identical cells.

Combat: The touch of a living web delivers an electrical shock. This attack causes a minimum of 1d4 points of damage. Webs of 3-5 HD inflict I& points of damage, while those of 6 HD cause 2d4 points, of damage.

Living webs can fire a miniature lightning bolt (20 yard range, 3d4 points of damage) up to twice per turn. Living webs with less than 9 hit points can fire only one lightning bolt per turn. All web fragments have this power, thus a living web cut in two can fire four such bolts per turn.

Living webs absorb all electrical energy, whether natural or magical, and permanently gain 1 Hit Die for each 8 hit points of electricity absorbed. Such energy causes the web to visibly grow.

They are unaffected by fire, water, heat, and cold attacks. Blows from edged weapons inflict full damage to these creatures; such blows divide them into two smaller wisps, Each has half the parent's remaining hit points and will continue to advance on the prey. Blunt weapons cause only half damage as the living web stretches to absorb the damage without tearing. Note that separation occur,, only as a result of an opponent's attack or an accident; living webs cannot voluntarily divide.

Living webs attack instinctively; they are unaffected by fear, repulsion, or similar spells.

Habitat/Society: These are nomadic omnivores that perpetually roam subterranean and wilderness areas. They prefer locations such as caverns and ruins, places full of normal webs that living webs can hide among. They spend their lives in endless search of plant life, carrion, and live prey. Ingested matter is converted into the electrical energy they use for movement and attacks.

Despite the lack of visible sensory organs, the living web can sense vibrations, variations in heat, and the presence of other living webs. Such senses have a maximum range of 90 feet.

They seem to flow over surfaces, moving like caterpillars on millions of tiny filaments. The filaments can fuse together into a larger, denser mass. Living webs can climb walls and ceilings of any material, They never slip, and they grasp a surface so strongly that they cannot be removed by any physical or magical attack that fails to slay them.

Though living webs move and act independently, they sense the direction and size of other living webs within 90 feet. If a living web detects another web with less than 9 hit points, it attempts to join together with the weaker web, If successful, it adds the hit points and Hit Dice to its own total, up to a maximum total of 6 HD.

Ecology: Living webs are useful for their role in killing vermin. They may be caught and used for guards in normally unused section of habitats and caverns.



Knight Otu had reposted a conversion of the living web here: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67895

First thing we should do with this fellow is determine the creature type.  I know that Ooze is the popular choice, but I’m not so sure about that.  I’m thinking more of an aberration with the Amorphous quality, such as the gibbering mouther.  But if you all really want to see it as an ooze, I’m sure I can work that out.

The way I think this monster needs to be written up, to make sense to me at all that is, is to write it up as a 1 HD monster standard.  I would give it the ability to join more than one creature together to make a higher HD monster (maximum 6) – and this is in the description if you look for it.  It would have a split ability (like the black pudding) that would divide the HD back down into separate monsters again.

What I’m saying is, let’s say a pair of 2HD living webs encounter each other and decide to join.  Then you would have one 4HD living web.  If it gets hit with a slashing weapon, then you’re down to a couple of 2HD ones again.  More lower level ones get fewer attacks, but fewer higher level ones attack better.  This is sort of how Knight’s description works, but making them 1HD standard instead of ½ will make this work a lot easier, I think.

Otherwise, we might just use Knight’s writeup as a base for the 3.5 version and fix it up as needed.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> First thing we should do with this fellow is determine the creature type.  I know that Ooze is the popular choice, but I’m not so sure about that.  I’m thinking more of an aberration with the Amorphous quality, such as the gibbering mouther.  But if you all really want to see it as an ooze, I’m sure I can work that out.




I'll second your motion for aberration.  Since it was semi-intelligent (Intelligence 2-4), it doesn't fit the ooze subtype, which says that all oozes are mindless.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The way I think this monster needs to be written up, to make sense to me at all that is, is to write it up as a 1 HD monster standard.  I would give it the ability to join more than one creature together to make a higher HD monster (maximum 6) – and this is in the description if you look for it.  It would have a split ability (like the black pudding) that would divide the HD back down into separate monsters again.
> 
> What I’m saying is, let’s say a pair of 2HD living webs encounter each other and decide to join.  Then you would have one 4HD living web.  If it gets hit with a slashing weapon, then you’re down to a couple of 2HD ones again.  More lower level ones get fewer attacks, but fewer higher level ones attack better.  This is sort of how Knight’s description works, but making them 1HD standard instead of ½ will make this work a lot easier, I think.




It would definitely be easier using a 1 HD base.  I hate dealing with creatures with less than 1 HD.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 19, 2003)

I'll comment on this thread for a change. 

I agree with changing the living web to a 1 HD creature. The 1/2 HD is a nightmare. As for the aberration/ooze thing... Even though the writeup gave it a low intelligence, the creature simply didn't seem truly intelligent to me, and IIRC, there have also been a few oozes that were intelligent in previous editions and lost that intelligence in the conversion.

As a compromise, it could be one of the rare oozes with an intelligence score. 



> *
> Ooze Type:* An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature, usually mindless.
> _Features: _An ooze has the following features.
> —10-sided Hit Dice.
> ...


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2003)

I'd be willing to take that compromise.    

As an ooze, it would stand a much better chance of survival.   If we do go with ooze, I'd ditch the Intelligence score.   I did a quick scan of oozes, and couldn't find one that wasn't mindless.


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## BOZ (Nov 19, 2003)

if we do keep it as an ooze, i'd insist on an intelligence score.


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if we do keep it as an ooze, i'd insist on an intelligence score.




Well, if you _insist_...    

Let's get rolling on this semi-intelligent ooze.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 19, 2003)

changed my mind actually, there's no real need to enforce an intelligence score on it.  

more to come in (hopefully) a few minutes...


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## BOZ (Nov 19, 2003)

let's start here:

*Living Web (Duleep)*
Tiny Ooze
Hit Dice: 1d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 15 ft (3 squares)
Armor Class: X (+2 size, +X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+X
Attack: Electricity ray +X ranged touch (3d4 electricity)
Full Attack: Electricity ray +X ranged touch (3d4 electricity)
Space/Reach: 2 ½ ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Electricity ray, shock 1d4
Special Qualities: Absorb electricity, blindsight 90 ft, damage reduction 5/slashing or piercing, fuse, immunity to cold and fire, ooze traits, split, tremorsense
Saves: Fort +0 Ref +0 Will +0
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con X Int --- Wis X Chr X
Skills: --- (climb bonus?)
Feats: ---

Environment: Any underground
Organization: Solitary or pack (1-8)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2-3 (Tiny)
Level Adjustment: ---



COMBAT



Originally found in Dragon Magazine #89 (“Creature Catalog”, September 1984, Ed Greenwood), and Monstrous Compendium MC3 – Forgotten Realms (1989).


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

Since Knight Otu already did alot of the work, let's use the following from his conversion to fill in some of the blanks:

AC: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Saves:  Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +2
Stats:  Str 1, Dex 14, Con 11, Int -, Wis 14, Cha 1

The electricity ray should be +2 ranged touch.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

i like the electricity ray idea, rather than a "miniature lightning bolt" like the text describes.    makes more sense, i think.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 21, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> The electricity ray should be +2 ranged touch.



From the Dex bonus, I assume? What about the size bonus?


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> From the Dex bonus, I assume? What about the size bonus?




Oops!  Good catch...it should be +4.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

some discussion...



			
				dragon 89 said:
			
		

> They can sense the presence of other duleeps, vibrations, and variations in the heat of their surroundings very keenly to a maximum range of 8'.






			
				MC3 said:
			
		

> Despite the lack of visible sensory organs, the living web can sense vibrations, variations in heat, and the presence of other living webs. Such senses have a maximum range of 90 feet.




we gave it blindsight and that is good, but does the rest of this make a difference?  (note that things must have been measured differently between 1E and 2E.  when possible, I take the 2E measurement rather than the slightly awkward 1E)


modifying this part from the black pudding a bit, we get:
Split (Ex): When struck by a slashing or piercing weapon, a living web splits into two identical webs, each with half of the original’s Hit Dice (round down) and half of the original’s current hit points (round down).  A web with only 1 Hit Die or hit point cannot be further split; it is destroyed.

As far as the fuse action though, I took it a bit differently that Otu did.  I don’t see it as quite an attack, even if the write-up did make it sound that way somewhat.
(Flavor text): Living webs can increase their Hit Dice by fusing together.  If a living web detects the presence of a weaker web, it will seek out that web to join with it.
Fuse (Ex): By moving into the same square, two or more willing living webs can join together to create a larger, stronger creature.  One web adds its Hit Dice and hit points to another, increasing the creature’s overall base attack bonus and saving throws.  A single fused living web can have no more than 6 Hit Dice.

For example, if a living web with 3 Hit Dice and 17 hit points encounters a web with 1 Hit Die and 4 hit points and decides to fuse with it.  The newly fused web would have 4 Hit Dice and 21 hit points, a base attack of +3.  If this same living web is later hit with a slashing weapon for 3 points of damage, it would split into 2 webs with 2 Hit Dice and 9 hit points each.

(let’s see how messy that mechanic can get when used too many times!)  




			
				dragon 89 said:
			
		

> The touch of a duleep is like a shocking grasp - the electrical shock does at least 1-4 points of damage per round (1 -6 if the duleep is of 3-5 HD, and 2-8 damage for a 6 HD type) to any creature whose bare skin or conductive armor or weaponry comes into contact with a duleep.






			
				MC3 said:
			
		

> The touch of a living web delivers an electrical shock. This attack causes a minimum of 1d4 points of damage. Webs of 3-5 HD inflict 1d6 points of damage, while those of 6 HD cause 2d4 points, of damage.




should it scale like in Otu's description?  Do we make this a touch attack (dropping on foes for example, spreading out over a doorway to catch you in the face) or just reserve it for anyone unlucky enough to touch it on purpose?




			
				dragon 89 said:
			
		

> Duleep may also fire a miniature lightning bolt (2 " range, 3-12 damage) up to twice per turn; one with less than 9 hit points (or one that has been reduced to 9 hp or less) can only unleash one bolt per turn.






			
				mc3 said:
			
		

> Living webs can fire a miniature lightning bolt (20 yard range, 3d4 points of damage) up to twice per turn. Living webs with less than 9 hit points can fire only one lightning bolt per turn. All web fragments have this power, thus a living web cut in two can fire four such bolts per turn.




electricity ray.  Note that a turn is roughly a minute/ten rounds now; I don’t think we want to force it to wait that long!  Maybe once every 1dX rounds, like a dragon’s breath weapon.




			
				dragon 89 said:
			
		

> Duleeps absorb all electrical energy, magical or natural, and will permanently gain one extra hit die for every 8 hp of electrical energy they absorb (the hit points gained from the new hit die are randomly determined), causing them to grow visibly.






			
				mc3 said:
			
		

> Living webs absorb all electrical energy, whether natural or magical, and permanently gain 1 Hit Die for each 8 hit points of electricity absorbed. Such energy causes the web to visibly grow.




I like the growth, but I still say max 6 HD for the creature.




			
				dragon 89 said:
			
		

> Duleeps may climb the walls and ceilings of any material and texture; they never slip, and may grasp a surface so strongly that they cannot be removed by any physical or magical attack that fails to slay the creature.






			
				mc3 said:
			
		

> They seem to flow over surfaces, moving like caterpillars on millions of tiny filaments. The filaments can fuse together into a larger, denser mass. Living webs can climb walls and ceilings of any material, They never slip, and they grasp a surface so strongly that they cannot be removed by any physical or magical attack that fails to slay them.




spider climb?


And keeping from Otu:
Skills: A living web receives a +10 circumstance bonus to Hide checks when hiding among normal spider webs.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2003)

sounds good?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2003)

I'm sorry, I missed this update for some reason the other day.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> we gave it blindsight and that is good, but does the rest of this make a difference?  (note that things must have been measured differently between 1E and 2E.  when possible, I take the 2E measurement rather than the slightly awkward 1E)




I think blindsight will be sufficient.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> modifying this part from the black pudding a bit, we get:
> Split (Ex): When struck by a slashing or piercing weapon, a living web splits into two identical webs, each with half of the original’s Hit Dice (round down) and half of the original’s current hit points (round down).  A web with only 1 Hit Die or hit point cannot be further split; it is destroyed.
> 
> As far as the fuse action though, I took it a bit differently that Otu did.  I don’t see it as quite an attack, even if the write-up did make it sound that way somewhat.
> ...




I think this mechanic seems feasible, but can definitely get messy.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> should it scale like in Otu's description?  Do we make this a touch attack (dropping on foes for example, spreading out over a doorway to catch you in the face) or just reserve it for anyone unlucky enough to touch it on purpose?




I'd vote for making it a touch attack.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> electricity ray.  Note that a turn is roughly a minute/ten rounds now; I don’t think we want to force it to wait that long!  Maybe once every 1dX rounds, like a dragon’s breath weapon.




Agreed.  I'd go every 1d4 like breath weapons.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I like the growth, but I still say max 6 HD for the creature.




Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> spider climb?




Yes!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And keeping from Otu:
> Skills: A living web receives a +10 circumstance bonus to Hide checks when hiding among normal spider webs.




I like this.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think blindsight will be sufficient.




is tremorsense necessary if it has blindsight?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> is tremorsense necessary if it has blindsight?




Not really.  About the only time tremorsense would supercede blindsight is if the creature lacks line of effect.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2003)

yer quick.  

Electricity Ray (Ex): A living web can create a ray that looks like a miniature bolt of lightning and deals 3d4 points of electricity damage (Reflex save half DC 10). Once a web uses this ray, it can’t use it again until 1d4 rounds later.  This attack has a range of 70 feet, with no range increment. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Absorb Electricity (Ex): Living webs take no damage from electrical attacks and effects. Any attack that would have dealt 8 or more points of electrical damage to a living web instead increases its total Hit Dice by 1, and its maximum hit points by 4.  The living web still has a maximum of 6 Hit Dice.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2003)

Those abilities look good.


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## BOZ (Nov 25, 2003)

how would we work the spider climb?  ability as the spell?

also, we could give it a climb speed and skill bonus like the black pudding and ochre jelly.


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## Krishnath (Nov 25, 2003)

Give it a climb speed of for example 5' or some such, thus granting it a +8 racial bonus on climb checks, additionally we could have it's ability bonus to climb be based on Dex instead of Str. There are a few monsters allready created by WotC that has that ability.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2003)

How about...

Wallwalking (Ex): This ability works like the _spider climb_ spell, except that its climb speed is limited to 15 ft. and it is always in effect.

or

Wallwalking (Ex): The duleep need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down).  

This would be in addition to the usual benefits of having a climb speed.  

I agree that we should add to the Skills section in the description that the duleep uses its Dexterity modifier for Climb checks.


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## BOZ (Nov 25, 2003)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> additionally we could have it's ability bonus to climb be based on Dex instead of Str. There are a few monsters allready created by WotC that has that ability.[/color]




i know i've seen that too.  got an example of such a creature so's i can look it up?


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i know i've seen that too.  got an example of such a creature so's i can look it up?




Check out the mighty beast known as....the cat.


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## BOZ (Nov 25, 2003)

heh


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## BOZ (Nov 25, 2003)

ok smart guy, go check out the new duleep, posted in homebrews.


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2003)

It's coming together nicely.  A few thoughts...

I'd vote for at least climb 10 ft., but would prefer 15 ft., since it seems to be its preferred form of locomotion.

I like the idea of Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

CR 1?  It is physically weak but can deal 3d4 damage as a ranged touch attack, which is pretty powerful at low levels.


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2003)

i'll make the climb speed 15 ft - essentially it can move the same speed on any grade of surface.


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2003)

OK, posted an update go check it out.


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## Krishnath (Nov 26, 2003)

Looks good.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2003)

ok then.     is CR 1 just about right?


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

It looks good, and I'm still for CR1.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

well then... next!  


May 1981, issue #49

Nogra
Created by Loren Kruse

FREQUENCY: Rare
NUMBER APPEARING: 2-3 or 4-24
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 6”
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 70%
TREASURE TYPE: D
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard (see below)
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (1’ high at shoulder)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack Defense Modes: Nil

The Nogra is a small creature with long, sharp claws which somewhat resembles a hairless lynx. However, the true physical nature of the Nogra will never be apparent when the animals are encountered. A live Nogra continually secretes a substance from its body which absorbs all visible light in the immediate area, causing the creature to appear as a Darkness spell. The absorption of light extends into the infrared and ultraviolet parts of the spectrum, rendering infravision and ultravision useless for purposes of seeing the creature’s actual form. 
The animals can use their claws in combat, and also employ them to climb along walls and ceilings. Their eyes are not functional, since they can’t see out of the curtain of darkness that surrounds them. However, this lack of sight is more than compensated for by the Nogra’s excellent senses of smell and hearing.
The light-absorbing substance which the Nogra’s body secretes also acts as a contact poison to any other species. Any character or creature which comes into contact with the Nogra (i.e., if the Nogra scores a hit) must make a saving throw vs. poison or be blinded 2-8 rounds later. This save vs. poison may be attempted in each round after the poisoning takes place, up until the round when blindness is determined to set in, and only needs to be made once within the pre-blindness period of 2-8 rounds to neutralize the effects of that particular poison strike. A separate save is required for each poison strike inflicted on a particular victim, whether the hits come from the same Nogra or different animals. If a victim is blinded, sight may only be restored by the use of a Cure Blindness, Limited
Wish, Wish or Alter Reality spell. There is no known antidote for Nogra poison. 
If encountered outside their lair (2-3 in number), Nogra are 70% likely to be hunting, and in this case will be secluded in a position from which to ambush their prey. When hunting, Nogra will attack at the first opportunity and will always surprise their prey unless their presence can be detected beforehand. If not hunting, Nogra are not aggressive.
If encountered in their lair, the Nogra will be in a pack of 4-24 in number and will always attack immediately as soon as the lair is disturbed. There is an 80% chance that an encountered lair will contain the “pack leader,” its largest and most powerful member (2+2 hit dice, 2 attacks per round).
Because they normally exist in a world of darkness, Nogra are extremely sensitive to light. The presence of a bright light (the equivalent of daylight or a Continual Light spell) will drive the Nogra away from the light source 70% of the time, if the animals are outside their lair. In their lair, Nogra will never retreat from the light, but will instead stand and attack. If the animal does not retreat from the bright light, it will suffer -4 “to hit” in combat for as long as the light remains. A Light spell affects Nogra in the same way, except that the chance of retreating is 50% and the penalty “to hit” is -2.
A Light spell cast at a Nogra will be absorbed (if the creature misses its saving throw) and have no apparent effect, but the energy of the spell will do 1-4 points of damage to the creature. Continual Light has the same properties, except that it can cause 2-8 points of damage if absorbed.
Light and Continual Light spells which are cast directly at a Nogra and not absorbed will simply dissipate. If either type of spell is cast in proximity to Nogra, with the intention of illuminating the area, the Nogra must be checked to see if they retreat as per the procedure above.
The true appearance of a Nogra can only be ascertained when the animal is killed. When it dies, the light-absorbing secretion stops, and the darkness around the animal fades away in 1-3 rounds. The contact poison is rendered harmless upon death. The hide of a Nogra is dark-colored and looks somewhat like that of a shark.





some preliminary stats for the nogra:

*Nogra*
Small Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 2d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+X
Attack: Claw +X melee (1d4+x)
Full Attacks: Claw +X melee (1d4+x)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: (blinding poison – contact and injury)
Special Qualities: (blindsense or blindsight), (darkness), darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, scent, (sensitive to light)
Saves: Fort +0 Ref +3 Will +3 (base)
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con X Int 6 Wis X Chr X
Skills: 5 ranks – Climb, Listen, Hide
Feats: 1

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary, 2-3 (hunting) or 4-24 (pack in lair)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful good
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Small); 5-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: +X



COMBAT 

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #49 ("Dragon’s Bestiary," May 1981, Loren Kruse).


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

Interesting creature.

For starters, here are the lynx stats from Races of Faerun:
Str 7, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Scent, pounce, Weapon Finesse as bonus feat.
+4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks. They use their Dexterity modifier for Climb checks.
*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

i'm not sure if we want to give it a pounce attack - despite that being the standard for feline monsters.  i mean, it only has one claw attack per round and makes no mention of any sort of rake ability.


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

Good point.  I'd skip the pounce attack.


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

Here's a first attempt at the darkness abilities:

*Aura of Darkness (Su):*  A live Nogra continually secretes a substance from its body which absorbs all visible light in the immediate area, continually surround the creature with a darkness effect (as the _darkness_ spell). 

When the nogra dies, the light-absorbing secretion stops, and the aura of darkness fades away in 1d3 rounds. 

*Light Sensitivity (Ex):* Nogras suffer a -4 penalty to attack rolls in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.  Within the radius of a light spell or equivalent light, this penalty is only -2.   When first brought into contact with a light effect, the nogra must make a DC 15 Will save (for light equivalent to a light spell) or a DC 19 Will save (for sunlight or light the equivalent of a daylight spell) or flee from the light source by the best and fastest means available to them.  They flee only until out of the light effect, and suffer no further effects.

Now, a question:

Since light and daylight spells in 3.5 have a target of "object touched", they cannot be directed at the nogra.   This eliminates the potential damage the nogra takes from these spells (which is no fun).   

I'd suggest we have the potential damage occur if the nogra is within the bright light area of such a spell, and have the other effects occur in the dim light area.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

hmm, that requires some thought.

i'd say the darkness may not be a magical effect, and may even be extraordinary.  that is, i don't think you could dispel it with magic.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

How about something like this:

*Aura of Darkness (Ex):*  A live Nogra continually secretes a substance from its body which absorbs all visible light in the immediate area, continually surround the creature with a darkness effect (as the _darkness_ spell). 

A _light_ (or equivalent) spell brought into the area of a nogra will be absorbed by the nogra unless the caster succeeds at a caster level check (DC X).  This deals 1d4 points of damage to the nogra.  A _daylight_ spell (or its equivalent) deals 2d4 points of damage to the nogra if absorbed.  

If a magic item with a _light_ effect or similar effect is brought into the area of the nogra, it is suppressed until brought outside of the aura of darkness, unless the bearer succeeds at a caster level check (DC X), using the caster level of the item.  Once brought outside the aura of darkness, the light effect resumes.  If it is brought within the aura of darkness again, another caster level check must be made.

If the caster level check succeeds, the light effect remains, and the nogra may suffer ill effects (see light sensitivity, below).

When the nogra dies, the light-absorbing secretion stops, and the aura of darkness fades away in 1d3 rounds.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

You’re getting closer, but a bit complex.  How about this:


Aura of Darkness (Ex): A live nogra continually secretes a substance from its body that absorbs all visible light in the immediate area, continually surrounding the creature with a darkness effect (as the deeper darkness spell).  

Any light effect or similar effect brought into the area of the nogra is suppressed until brought outside of the aura of darkness. Once brought outside the aura of darkness, the light effect resumes.  While this darkness will suppress a daylight spell, a daylight spell does not suppress the nogra’s aura.  

When the nogra dies, the light-absorbing secretion stops, and the aura of darkness fades away in 1d3 rounds.


Light Sensitivity (Ex): Nogras are susceptible to light sources within the range of their blindsight/blindsense ability.  Nogras suffer a -4 penalty to attack rolls when exposed to bright sunlight or a daylight spell. When exposed to a light spell or equivalent light, this penalty is only -2. (I might make this next part into combat flavor text) - When first brought into contact with a light effect, the nogra must make a DC 15 Will save (for light equivalent to a light spell) or a DC 19 Will save (for sunlight or light the equivalent of a daylight spell) or flee from the light source by the best and fastest means available to them. They flee only until away from the light effect, and suffer no further effects.

If a light or daylight spell is cast upon a nogra, the nogra must roll a (Fort?) saving throw.  If the save is successful, the spell will simply dissipate.  If the save is not successful, the spell is absorbed by the aura of darkness, but the nogra suffers 1d4 points of damage from a light spell, or 2d4 points of damage from a daylight spell.


Feel free to reword that to make more sense, but I think this is how it should go.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

We are getting closer, but your revision raises a few more issues.

As written, when would the light sensitivity come into play?  Other than in natural sunlight, the nogra would suppress any other light effect.  Do we want to leave the suppression automatic and ditch the light vulnerability.

For the last part, remember that light and daylight cannot be cast on a creature, only an object, so therefore cannot be "cast upon a nogra".  

This little bugger is turning out to be challenging!


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

it can't be cast on a creature?  how bogus!  are you *sure* about that?  if that's the case, we'll have to ditch that aspect altogether as it just makes things unnecessarily complicated... (damn!)

the light sensitivity would come into play whenever light is within the range of the nogra's blindsense/blindsight (whichever one we give it).  the range of darkness is 20' right?  and the range of blindsight is usually 60' right?  so if you were standing 40' away from a nogra and holding a lantern, the nogra would sense the light and want to back away from you.

if, however, the nogra could resist the pain and approach the light source, if it got close enough it would subsume the lightsource and thus turn out the light altogether.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

I'm afraid it's true.  From the SRD:

Light 
Evocation [Light]
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: *Object touched*
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell causes an object to glow like a torch, shedding bright light in a 20-foot radius (and dim light for an additional 20 feet) from the point you touch. The effect is immobile, but it can be cast on a movable object. Light taken into an area of magical darkness does not function.

A light spell (one with the light descriptor) counters and dispels a darkness spell (one with the darkness descriptor) of an equal or lower level.

Arcane Material Component: A firefly or a piece of phosphorescent moss.


Daylight 
Evocation [Light]
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: *Object touched*
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The object touched sheds light as bright as full daylight in a 60-foot radius, and dim light for an additional 60 feet beyond that. Creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them while within the radius of this magical light. Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by bright light.

If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light- proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.

Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.

Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

it would have to say "creature or object" then, wouldn't it.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

Unfortunately, yes.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

started a discussion thread here: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1249183#post1249183


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2003)

I was thinking more about this last night, and came to a similar conclusion to Lord Pendragon's in your other thread:   Have the nogra take damage from spells with the [Light] descriptor, and let its light vulnerability kick in when in areas of light and daylight spells, since they can't target the nogra.   

For the purposes of absorption, we could simply use the normal rules of darkness trumps light, daylight trumps darkness, deeper darkness trumps daylight, and so on.    Then we could just give the nogra an aura to a radius of X feet of some level of darkness, which would determine which light effects it would dispel.

What do you think?


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## BOZ (Dec 3, 2003)

i was just reading the responses to that thread, but i will take more time to look at it after lunch (food makes me think better, theoretically)


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2003)

BOZ--Off topic a tad, but I was looking at my old Creature Catalogs from Dragon last night and got all nostalgic when I got to the great wyrm.   I'd like to put in a request to do this guy sometime after we wrap up the nogra and anything else you have on the agenda.   You gotta love a monster with a breath weapon that catastrophic.

Besides, this may be the first monster we update whose name we have to change.


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## BOZ (Dec 3, 2003)

how about this?

Contact with magical light sources also causes physical harm to a nogra. If a nogra is targeted by a spell with the [Light] descriptor, or struck by an object that is the subject of such a spell, the magical energy of the spell deals 1d4 damage plus 1d4 damage per level of the spell to the nogra if it fails a Fort(?) Save (DC X). Additionally, the searing light, sunbeam, and sunburst spells deal double damage to a nogra.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2003)

I like it.  However, it doesn't address whether the light source remains or goes away.   Are we going to ditch that aspect of the nogra, or try to work it in?


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

remains active you mean?  i would say so, although the light itself is inactive while in the aura of darkness.  any spells that actually can be cast on the nogra itself should be dispelled though - can we get a list of spells with the [light] descriptor?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2003)

The nogra had the ability to actually absorb, and thereby dispel, the light spell that came into contact with it.

Some spells from the PHB with Light descriptor:
Light (duh)
Daylight
Continual Flame
Dancing Lights
Faerie Fire
Flare
Sunbeam
Sunburst


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

> The nogra had the ability to actually absorb, and thereby dispel, the light spell that came into contact with it.




not exactly, check that out again:



> A Light spell *cast at a Nogra* will be absorbed (if the creature misses its saving throw) and have no apparent effect, but the energy of the spell will do 1-4 points of damage to the creature. Continual Light has the same properties, except that it can cause 2-8 points of damage if absorbed.
> Light and Continual Light spells *which are cast directly at a Nogra* and not absorbed will simply dissipate. If either type of spell is cast in proximity to Nogra, with the intention of illuminating the area, the Nogra must be checked to see if they retreat as per the procedure above.




Emphasis mine.    The nogra only absorbs spells of which it is the target.  We’re changing that up a bit due to rules changes, but I’d say the nogra still cannot absorb spells already in effect, since it could not before.  And none of the spells you listed can target a single creature.

 I’d say that light, daylight, and continual flame would be cast on an object which could then touch and harm a nogra.  Dancing lights, faerie fire, and flare would cause no damage to a nogra, but would make it flee.  Sunbeam and sunburst blind normal creatures and do enough damage to kill a nogra easily if the damage is doubled.

Naturally, none of these effects would blind a nogra since it is already blind.  Here’s how I think of the way light affects a nogra.  You know how if you sense heat nearby but it’s not close enough to actually hurt you, you tend to stay away from the heat source?  Same thing here.  The nogra knows the light can “burn” it if it touches the creature.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2003)

You're right.  I got confused with the part about the light spells cast in proximity to the nogra, which has them check for fleeing, not absorbing the spell.

Your suggestions sound good, and I'd stick with your revised light vulnerability from earlier in the thread.

Whew!  Why is it always the little creatures that take forever?


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

the only real reason we had a problem here was because one of the attributes of the creature was seriously affected by a relatively minor rules change.


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

here's another idea.  the nogra has no rake attack, but should we give it a pounce anyway?  automatic claw damage if it wins a grapple check?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2003)

The devil's in the details.    

I like the pounce.   Imagine the look on characters' faces as a blob of darkness leaps at them, then slashes 'em.  

Automatic claw on grapple check seems reasonable.

Now about this:

"The light-absorbing substance which the Nogra’s body secretes also acts as a contact poison to any other species. Any character or creature which comes into contact with the Nogra (i.e., if the Nogra scores a hit) must make a saving throw vs. poison or be blinded 2-8 rounds later. This save vs. poison may be attempted in each round after the poisoning takes place, up until the round when blindness is determined to set in, and only needs to be made once within the pre-blindness period of 2-8 rounds to neutralize the effects of that particular poison strike. A separate save is required for each poison strike inflicted on a particular victim, whether the hits come from the same Nogra or different animals. If a victim is blinded, sight may only be restored by the use of a Cure Blindness, Limited Wish, Wish or Alter Reality spell. There is no known antidote for Nogra poison. "

Do we want to simplify this to be normal poison?  If so, contact, injury, or both?
Or do we want to do something similar to what we did with the molydeus' abyssal venom?


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

on second though, nix the pounce.

how about something like this?

Poison (Ex): Contact or Injury, Fortitude DC X, initial damage (1d3 temp Dex – or dazed/stunned for X rounds), secondary damage blindness. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2003)

How about dazzled (creature takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks)  for the primary damage ?


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

i looked that up, and it's due to "overstimulation of the eyes".  do you think that would work?


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## BOZ (Dec 5, 2003)

posting to homebrews, comment here as always.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i looked that up, and it's due to "overstimulation of the eyes".  do you think that would work?




I think it could work.   I think that the penalties for dazed or stunned are too severe, whereas those of dazzled seemed right on target.  If you'd rather not go with dazzled, you could apply the same penalties and leave out the term "dazzled".

Some more suggestions:

Change Special Attack line to just read "Poison".

I'd give it blindsight, not blindsense.

Suggested Skills:  Balance +11 (includes +8 racial bonus), Climb +11 (uses Dex mod, includes +8 bonus for having a climb speed), Hide +13 (includes +4 modifier for size and +4 racial bonus, +2 for Stealthy feat), Jump +5 (uses Dex mod), Listen +4, Move Silently +9 (includes +4 racial bonus, +2 for Stealthy feat)

Feats:  Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B)

CR 3?

Poison DC = 12.


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

okie dokie, updating it.    and for the climb, i decided to give them a +8 bonus since i didn't give them a climb speed.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> okie dokie, updating it.    and for the climb, i decided to give them a +8 bonus since i didn't give them a climb speed.




Oops!  I'm in the habit of giving out bonuses for imaginary climb speeds, apparently.    

It's looking good.   I think your choice of Underground as its environment is wise.


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

i think we're just about done here also.  for taking damage from light spells, i think the save should be a Fort save, maybe a good ol DC 15?


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

Good ol' DC 15, the DM's best friend.


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

and the dazzle duration?


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

2d4 rounds (like the original description's onset delay)?


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

does that sound good, or is it not appropriately catlike enough?

Organization: Solitary, band (2-3), or pack (4-24)


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> does that sound good, or is it not appropriately catlike enough?
> 
> Organization: Solitary, band (2-3), or pack (4-24)




That sounds fine, or you could use family in place of band, and pride in place of pack.  But since the leader is called "pack leader", pack is probably more appropriate.


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

well, that and the group of 2-3 is usually a group of hunters...   not sure what to call them!


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

Hmm, I just looked at a bunch of similar creatures, and they all say Solitary, Pair, or Pride.   (lynx, swamplight lynx, krenshar, wolves)

The howler says solitary, *gang*, or pack.   Maybe that's the answer?


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

it is for me!  

rather than waste any time, let's move on to the next critter!  shade mentioned the amitok (snow goblin) a few pages back, so i've been saving it up!  here we go...


AMITOK

FREQUENCY. Rare
NO. APPEARING: 3-30 males (if wandering); 6-60 males (if in lair, see below)
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12'
HIT DICE: 2 + 2
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5/2-5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise on 1-4; shamans use spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Resistance to cold and poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (7' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
	Attack/Defense Modes; Nil
LEVEL/X. P. VALUE: III/65 + 3/hp
	Level 1-3 shamans: 111180 + 3/hp
	Level 4-5 shamans: IV/1 75 + 4/hp

Amitoka (the singular form is amitok) are also known as snow goblins; they are descended from hobgoblin stock but long ago adapted to arctic and subarctic climates. Amitoka are very broad in build. Their bodies are covered in light gray or white fur except for their hairless, pale blue faces and hands. They are exceptionally strong (16 strength for adult males, 14 for females), but do not use weapons in combat other than their claws.

Amitoka are carnivorous and hunt frequently. Their coloration allows them to surprise opponents in snowy or icy environments on a roll of 1-4 on a six-sided die. They fear no creature; groups of amitoka have been known to attack even a solitary frost giant, and they usually win out, even though many of the group may die in the assault. After a battle, they gather all the dead (including their own) and bring them back to their lair for a feast.

Amitoka lairs are short tunnel systems dug into deep snow, usually with 2-5 large communal rooms for the colony. There are half as many females as males (females have 2 HD, attack with two claws for 1-4/1-4), and twice as many young as the total number of adults (young have 2-7 hp, attack as 1-1 HD monsters for 1-4 damage). Only males go hunting, but females defend the tunnels with great ferocity (getting a -2 to hit). The amitok culture is completely oriented toward getting food, and all creatures are regarded as potential food sources.

A thick layer of fat keeps amitoka safe from normal chilling cold, and also allows them to take half damage from all cold-based spells or attacks. The fat layer also gives them a -4 bonus on saves vs. poison that must penetrate this layer to work, such as poisoned arrows and wyvern stings.

Colonies of amitoka are 25% likely to have tribal pets that are used in hunting. These pets are 70% likely to be hoar foxes and 30% likely to be winter wolves. Those tribes that have winter wolves are able to speak the wolves' tongue in addition to their own corruption of the hobgoblin language (understandable to 30% of all hobgoblins). They know no other languages.

Amitoka worship Cryonax (see the FIEND FOLIO' Tome). Each tribe is ruled by a shaman devoted to that deity. An amitok shaman is larger and stronger than its fellows (equivalent of 18 strength, 8' tall, 3-6/3-6 damage), and has the abilities of a 2nd- to 5th-level cleric, adding 1d4 hp to its base hit points (2 + 2 HD) for every clerical level over the first. Thus, a 4th-level shaman has 2 - 2 HD, plus 3d4 lip. For every two levels of clerical ability, the shaman will fight as if one hit dice better an the monsters' "to hit" table in the DMG, so a 4th-level or 5th-level shaman will fight as a 4 HD monster. The male amitok with the greatest number of hit points in the tribe besides the shaman serves as the shaman's successor, and is able to cast spells as a 1st-level cleric. See the DMG (p. 40) for further information on shamans. Amitok shamans do not need or use material components for any of their spells, and need only meditate overnight to recover them.

Treasure is generally not collected or used by these beings. Some tribes have found that a pile of treasure placed near a wellused trail tends to draw passersby; ambushes are often arranged at such places. Aside from worthless items such as old furs, boots, and broken weapons, such treasure piles may contain a 20% chance each of treasure types J (x100), K (x100), L (x50), M (x10), and N (x10), as well as the usual chance for type Q. In addition, there is a 105 chance that the pile will contain a random magic item.

Amitoka hate all humans and demihumans, and dislike all other creatures except themselves. They have been known to cooperate at times with quaggoths, and the two creature types are often mistaken for one another in arctic terrain. Amitoka are considered giant class humanoids for purposes of attacks made against them by rangers. Some barbarian human tribes who dwell in the polar wastes refer to amitoka as "demons," which can confuse adventuring parties as to the creatures' true nature.










some preliminary stats for the amitok:

*Amitok*
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
Hit Dice: 2d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+X
Attack: Claw +X melee (1d4+X)
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (1d4+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: 
Special Qualities: +4 save vs. poison, resistance to cold 5?
Saves: Fort +3 Ref +0 Will +0 (base)
Abilities: Str 16 Dex X Con 12+ Int 7 Wis X Cha X
Skills: 5 ranks – Hide bonus
Feats: 1

Environment: Any cold land and underground?
Organization: (3-30 males if wandering); (6-60 males in lair, 3-30 females, 18-180 young, plus 1 2nd-5th level adept, plus winter wolves or hoar foxes)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None (incidental)
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: By character class?
Level Adjustment: +X

An amitok is 7 feet tall and weighs X pounds.

COMBAT 

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #89 (“Creature Catalog,” September 1984, Roger Moore).


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2003)

Sweet!   These guys should be pretty easy to convert.

For abilities, I'm thinking Str 16, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 9, Cha 8.  When compared to hobgoblins, they should have a slightly higher Con score due to living in more inhospitable environments, and probably a lower Dex score due to their broader statures.   I figure Wis and Cha are on par with hobgobs.

How about Improved Initiative and a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks in snowy terrain?

Humanoid good saves are Reflex.

Advancement by character class.

Cold resistance 5 should be appropriate for their HD.

Weight 350 lbs?

*Amitoka as Characters*
Most amitok leaders are (adepts or clerics?).  Amitok clerics worship Cryonax and can choose any two of the following domains: Air, Animal, Evil, and Water.

Amitok characters possess the following racial traits: 

(+6 Strength, +0 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma?) 
Medium size. 
An amitok's base land speed is 30 feet. 
(Low-light vision and/or Darkvision out to 60 feet.)
Racial Hit Dice: An amitok begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1 and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1. 
Racial Skills: An amitok's humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are ...
Racial Feats: An amitok's humanoid levels give it one feat. 
+X natural armor bonus. 
(+8 racial bonus on Hide checks in snowy environments?)
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison
Cold resistance (5?)
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin, Bonus Languages: (Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Orc?) 
Favored Class: (Cleric?). 
Level Adjustment +X.


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Humanoid good saves are Reflex.




Yes, but good saves vary (see MM p 310); I thought fort was more appropriate here.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Yes, but good saves vary (see MM p 310); I thought fort was more appropriate here.




Ahh, I never saw that before.  Fort is definitely more appropriate here.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2003)

Also, will we need to stat out hoar foxes for 3.5, since they're in the organization entry?


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## BOZ (Dec 11, 2003)

no, ToH IIRC


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2003)

Oh yeah.  Nevermind then.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2003)

Some more thoughts on the amitok.

_This broad-built humanoid stands 7 feet tall.  Its flat face is pale blue and hairless, as are its wickedly clawed hands.  Its body is covered in light gray, almost white, fur._

How about Handle Animal and Survival for skills, considering its focus on hunting and keeping tribal pets?



> They fear no creature; groups of amitoka have been known to attack even a solitary frost giant, and they usually win out, even though many of the group may die in the assault.




Perhaps a +4 bonus on saves against fear effects?


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2003)

not sure.  that doesn't sound the same as being fearless... however, it does suggest a high morale.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure.  that doesn't sound the same as being fearless... however, it does suggest a high morale.




True.  We could just grant them immunity to fear effects.


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## BOZ (Dec 17, 2003)

ok, posted...


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2003)

I'd change the Fearless ability to be called "Brave" or something similar, since a +4 bonus vs. fear can still leave them fear_ful_.    

Alternatively, you can make them immune to fear and keep the Fearless name.

With a Wis score of 11, the Wis penalty in the Amitoka as characters section should go away.

Do we want to give them darkvision, low-light vision, both, or neither?

CR 2?  They seem about on par with a bugbear.


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## BOZ (Dec 18, 2003)

the goblinoid standard is darkvision...


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the goblinoid standard is darkvision...




That sounds good enough to me.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2003)

i think i'll call it Reckless instead of Fearless.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2003)

Cool.


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## BOZ (Dec 23, 2003)

would that be an SA or SQ?

i think this guy is mostly done.  mostly skills and feats, and to fix up the character section.

Skills: 5 ranks – Handle Animal, Listen, Spot, Survival, Hide bonus
Feats: 1  Improved Initiative?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2003)

I'd say SQ.

For skills ranks, how about Handle Animal (1), Hide (1), Listen (1), Spot (1), Survival (1)?

I like Improved Initiative for the feat.


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## BOZ (Dec 23, 2003)

hmm, but Handle Animal will be only +0 with that low Cha.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, but Handle Animal will be only +0 with that low Cha.




Good point.  Maybe give it 2 ranks of Handle Animal, and none in Hide (the racial bonus will take care of it).


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## BOZ (Dec 23, 2003)

bingo.  

updating in homebrews; anything else need fixing or we ready to move on?  i know LA needs to be determined.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2003)

You can probably remove the "+4 save vs. poison" from the SQ line, since you address it in the Saves line (this seems to be the standard, as seen in the hound archon, for example).

Add darkvision 60 ft. to SQ line.

You can remove the question mark from "Any cold land and underground?"

We still need numbers for hoar foxes and winter wolves in Org line.

CR 2 seems appropriate.

A bugbear has a LA of +1, and it seems on par with an amitok.

Here's a rewrite of the Amitoka as character section, based on our changes:

*Amitoka as Characters*

Most amitok leaders are adepts, and all amitok spellcasters are generally adepts. Amitok clerics worship Cryonax and can choose any two of the following domains: Air, Animal, Evil, and Water.

Amitok characters possess the following racial traits: 

+6 Strength, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -2 Charisma 
Medium size. 
An amitok's base land speed is 30 feet. 
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: An amitok begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1 and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +0, and Will +0. 
Racial Skills: An amitok's humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Handle Animal, Listen, Spot, and Survival. 
Racial Feats: An amitok's humanoid levels give it one feat. 
+3 natural armor bonus. 
+8 racial bonus on Hide checks in snowy environments.
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
Resistance to cold 5.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin, Giant.  Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Orc. 
Favored Class: Barbarian. 
Level Adjustment +1.


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## BOZ (Dec 23, 2003)

so then this would be the last section that needs a-fixin?

Organization: (3-30 males if wandering); colony (6-60 males in lair, 3-30 females, 18-180 young, plus 1 2nd-5th level adept, plus X winter wolves or X hoar foxes)

we can make up a number for the pets, as the text does not say.  maybe 2-12 wolves or 4-24 foxes?
for the 3-30, would "band" be suitable?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2003)

Agreed on all suggestions.


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## BOZ (Dec 24, 2003)

then i call the amitok done.

NEXT!


UTUKKU

FREQUENCY. Common on Tarterus; very rare elsewhere 
NO. APPEARING: 1 
ARMOR CLASS: -2 
MOVE: 15” 
HIT DICE: 10 + 5 
% IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: F, R, X 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and 1 bite 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-16/4-16/3-12 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spell use 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon needed to hit;. spell immunities; poison resistance 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50% 
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT Chaotic evil
SIZE: L (11'-14' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY 130-160
	Attack/Defense Modes: BE / FH
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VIII/4950 + 14/hp

Utukku (singular and plural forms are identical) inhabit the great ash deserts of the planes of Tarterus and prey upon the various demons and daemons that pass through their territories. On rare occasions they will come to the Prime Material Plane, where they make their lairs in caverns or pits in desolate regions, particularly sandy deserts and areas with volcanic activity.

Utukku have many powers that they use to good effect in combat. At will they may detect invisible objects, read languages, know alignment, and detect magic. They have infravision to 120' and have a limited form of telepathy allowing them to communicate with any intelligent creature. Three times a day they may teleport without error, carrying up to 5000 gp weight with them, cause fear (as a wand of fear), create darkness (30' radius), and cast a 12d6 lightning bolt. Once per day, utukku may use a symbol of discord and control weather as an 18th-level magic-user. Utukku may also cause disease by touch and polymorph self into a human or humanoid form for a full day, but these two powers are only usable once per week.

Once every century, an utukku will be able to plane shift itself to the Prime Material Plane from Tarterus for the purpose of gathering more treasure; it will remain on the Prime Material plane for only one year, after which time it automatically shifts back to its home plane, taking up to 40,000 gp weight of treasure with it. Because of the short stay it has on the Prime Material Plane, any lairs it makes there are likely to be hastily made, and the defenses will not usually be very tough. On Tarterus, utukku have more and better defenses, since each creature must protect itself from every other utukku there.

Utukku have some resistance to certain magical attack forms, due to the nature of their home environment. They only take half damage from lightning, Fire, or poisonous gas if they fail a saving throw against one of those attack forms, and one-quarter damage if the save succeeds. They save vs. poison at +4. Other attacks function normally against them. Though they are psionic, utukku have no major or minor disciplines.

When found on the Prime Material Plane, utukku will use their powers to spread misery and evil through nearby human, demi-human, or humanoid communities. They will not attempt to gain any followers or become leaders of humans or humanoids, prefering to work alone. They attack other creatures from the Outer Planes on sight, regardless of alignment or plane of origin, unless they are outnumbered or weakened.

Utukku are roughly humanoid in shape, standing at an average height of 12'. They have the head of a lion, with long quills radiating out in place of a mane, and a scaled humanoid body. They have great claws on their hands and feet, and use their hands to slash at opponents in battle rather than using a weapon. Though they value magical weapons quite highly, they have never been known to use them in battle. They are a dark brick-red in color over much of their bodies, their faces being a golden-red and their spines striped black and white. The claws and teeth are white. An utukku's eyes are bright yellow with catlike blue pupils. They have a lifespan of several thousand years.




some preliminary stats for the utukku:

*Utukku*
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 10d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+X
Attack: 
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (4d4+X) and bite +X melee (3d4+X)
Space/Reach: 
Special Attacks: Psionics, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction X/X, darkvision 120 ft, plane shift, poison bonus, resistance to electricity X and fire X, spell resistance 21, (telepathy?)
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X 
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 16, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 
Feats: 4

Environment: Tarterian Depths of Carceri
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Large); 21-30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +X

Utukku stand an average height of 12 feet tall, and weigh about X pounds.

COMBAT


Originally found in Dragon Magazine #89 (“Creature Catalog,” September 1984, Roger Moore).


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2003)

Sweet!  Fiends from the under-represented plane of Carceri.    

For comparison, here's the stats from the Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium.

*Utukku*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Any
FREQUENCY:	Common on Carceri, very rare elsewhere
ORGANIZATION:	Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Any
DIET:	Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE:	Exceptional (15–16)
TREASURE:	F, R, X
ALIGNMENT:	Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING:	1
ARMOR CLASS:	–2
MOVEMENT:	15
HIT DICE:	10+5
THAC0:	9
NO. OF ATTACKS:	3 (claw/claw/bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	4d4/4d4/3d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES:	Hit only by +1 or better magical weapons, spell immunities, saving throw bonus
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	50%
SIZE:	L (11'–14' tall)
MORALE:	Champion (15–16)
XP VALUE:	16,000

Utukku usually inhabit the planes of Carceri, but on rare occasions they will come to the Prime Material Plane, inhabiting caverns or pits in desolate regions. On the Savage Coast, they are most often found in the deserts around the Horn and the Land of the Shifting Dunes, near Trident Bay.

Utukku are roughly humanoid in shape, standing about 12 feet high. An utukku has the head of a lion, with long quills in place of a mane, and a scaled humanoid body. It also has huge, white claws on its hands and feet. These creatures are mostly dark red in color, but their faces are a golden-red. An utukku's eyes are bright yellow with catlike blue pupils.

Utukku have their own language, which resembles low growls and is composed of very few words; meaning is conveyed by tone and inflection. They also have their own written language—a harsh and angular script, which bears some resemblance to the enduk writing style.

The Red Curse: Utukku never gain Legacies, and they do not require cinnabryl.

Combat: Utukku use their hands to slash at opponents in battle. Utukku can also use the following powers at will: detect invisibility, read languages, know alignment, and detect magic. They can use the following abilities three times per day: teleport without error (carrying up to 1500 pounds), cause fear (as per wand of fear), create darkness (30-foot radius), and lightning bolt (12d6 points of damage). Once per day, utukku may use a symbol of discord and control weather as an 18th-level mage. Once per week, an utukku may cause disease (by touch) and polymorph self into a human or humanoid form for a full day. All utukku have infravision to 120 feet and have a limited form of telepathy, which allows them to communicate with intelligent creatures.

The harsh and deadly nature of the utukku's home environment has forced them to develop resistance to certain magical attack forms. From lightning, fire, or poisonous gas attacks, they take half damage if they fail a saving throw and one-quarter damage if they succeed. They also gain a +4 bonus on saving throws vs. poison. Utukku are immune to any sort of mental probing, such as ESP and telepathy.

Habitat/Society: Once per century, each utukku can plane shift itself into the Prime Material Plane from Carceri; it can remain on the Prime Material Plane for one year, after which it automatically shifts back to its home plane, taking up to 4,000 pounds of material with it. Because of its relatively short stay on the Prime Material Plane, its lairs are hastily made, and its defenses will not be very complex.

On the Prime Material Plane, utukku use their powers to spread misery and evil through nearby humanoid communities. They do not attempt to gain followers or lead humanoids, preferring to work alone. They attack other creatures from the Outer Planes on sight, regardless of alignment or plane of origin, unless they are outnumbered.

Ecology: Unlike some extraplanar creatures, utukku are mortal, but they have a life span of several thousand years.

Rumors claim that the utukku are the minions or servants of a long-forgotten Immortal that was either destroyed or imprisoned by the enduk patron Immortal. The enmity between this shadowy Immortal patron and Idu would certainly explain the utukku's fierce hatred for the enduks.


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2003)

Here's what I've worked up, merged with your stat block:

*Utukku*
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 10d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+14
Attack: 
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (4d4+X) and bite +X melee (3d4+X)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Psionics, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction X/X, darkvision 120 ft, plane shift, poison bonus, resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10, spell resistance 21, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +7 (+11 vs. poison) Ref +7 Will +7 
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 16, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 143 total
Feats: 4

Environment: Tarterian Depths of Carceri
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Large); 21-30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +X


_Standing 12 feet tall, this creature bears the head of a lion, with long quills radiating out in place of a mane.  Its scaled humanoid body is dark brick-red, its face is a golden-red and its spines are striped black and white. Huge, white claws cap its hands and feet. Its bright yellow eyes have catlike blue pupils and bely great intelligence._

Utukku stand an average height of 12 feet tall, and weigh about 800 pounds.

Utuakku speak their own language, but mostly communicate via telepathy.

COMBAT

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—comprehend languages, detect chaos/evil/good/law, detect magic, see invisibility; 3/day-cause fear (DC X), darkness, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), lightning bolt (DC X); 1/day—control weather, symbol of ?; 1/week--contagion (DC X), polymorph. Caster level 18th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Plane Shift (Sp): Once per century, an utukku can plane shift itself into the Material Plane from Carceri; it can remain on the Material Plane for one year, after which it automatically shifts back to its home plane, taking up to 4,000 pounds of material with it. Because of its relatively short stay on the Material Plane, its lairs are hastily made, and its defenses will not be very complex.  On Carceri, utukku have more and better defenses, since each creature must protect itself from every other utukku there.

Some questions:  
-What is the 3E equivalent of symbol of discord?
-Since the stated caster level is 18th, but the lightning bolt was 12d6, should we bump lightining bolt up to caster level 18th as well, or make it a separate entry and leave it at CL 12?
-How do we want to work this:  "Utukku are immune to any sort of mental probing, such as ESP and telepathy."  

Since they "prey on demons and daemons", I'd suggest we use similar CR or HD Large demons/yugoloths to get their ability scores.

Hezrou:  Str 21, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18
Vrock:  Str 23, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16
Yagnoloth:  Str 30, Dex 24, Con 29, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 16

Based on this, I'd recommend Str 21, Dex 11, Con 29, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 18.  Utukku seem to have a build similar to a hezrou, but are more reliant on mental stats.


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## BOZ (Dec 24, 2003)

data overload!    i'll look at this one later today if i get the time (short day at work today) - didn't know they were in savage coast!


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## BOZ (Dec 24, 2003)

i see that MC contains creatures from a variety of sources... it's also got the fachan and glasspane horror from the same article as the utukku, and the vulturehound from a different issue of dragon.


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2003)

Yeah, I had forgotten about it until I got the latest issue of Dragon.  The Red Steel article piqued my interest, so I browsed it again and was surprised by some of the monsters found within.


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## BOZ (Dec 24, 2003)

> -What is the 3E equivalent of symbol of discord?




Well, under 2E rules it caused this: “All creatures are affected and immediately fall to loud bickering and arguing; there is a 50% probability that creatures of different alignments attack each other. The bickering lasts for 5d4 rounds, the fighting for 2d4 rounds.”  We can just find something that is similar?



> -Since the stated caster level is 18th, but the lightning bolt was 12d6, should we bump lightining bolt up to caster level 18th as well, or make it a separate entry and leave it at CL 12?




actually, the maximum damage (both 2E and 3E) is 10d6, so I don’t see why it shouldn’t be at the same level as the rest.



> -How do we want to work this: "Utukku are immune to any sort of mental probing, such as ESP and telepathy."




ahh… I know I’ve seen this somewhere before.  



> Since they "prey on demons and daemons", I'd suggest we use similar CR or HD Large demons/yugoloths to get their ability scores.
> 
> Hezrou: Str 21, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18
> Vrock: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16
> ...




works for me.  
this would alter the stats like so:

*Utukku*
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 10d8+90 (135 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (-1 size, +13 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+19
Attack: (claw or bite or either?)
Full Attack: 2 claws +15 melee (4d4+5) and bite +10 melee (3d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Psionics, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction X/X, darkvision 120 ft, plane shift, resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10, spell resistance 21, telepathy 100 ft
Saves: Fort +16 (+20 against poison Ref +7 Will +10
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 11, Con 29, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 18
Skills: 143 ranks
Feats: 4


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Well, under 2E rules it caused this: “All creatures are affected and immediately fall to loud bickering and arguing; there is a 50% probability that creatures of different alignments attack each other. The bickering lasts for 5d4 rounds, the fighting for 2d4 rounds.”  We can just find something that is similar?




Hmm...I can't seem to find a spell with a similar effect, so how about this:

*Symbol of Discord (Sp):*  Once per day, an utukku can create a symbol of discord.  This functions similar to a _symbol of death_, except that when triggered, all creatures within 60 feet of the _symbol of discord_ immediately fall to loud bickering and arguing, allowing them to take no other actions.  If affected creatures are of different alignments, there is a 50% probability that they attack each other. The bickering lasts for 5d4 rounds, the fighting for 2d4 rounds.  A successful Will save (DC X) negates the effect.   This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> actually, the maximum damage (both 2E and 3E) is 10d6, so I don’t see why it shouldn’t be at the same level as the rest.




Good point.  Let's leave it same as the rest then.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> ahh… I know I’ve seen this somewhere before.




Was that the ulitharid?

Some suggested skills:  Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival.

Suggested feats:  Blind-Fight (to take advantage of darkness ability), Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack.


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## BOZ (Dec 26, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hmm...I can't seem to find a spell with a similar effect, so how about this:
> 
> *Symbol of Discord (Sp):*  Once per day, an utukku can create a symbol of discord.  This functions similar to a _symbol of death_, except that when triggered, all creatures within 60 feet of the _symbol of discord_ immediately fall to loud bickering and arguing, allowing them to take no other actions.  If affected creatures are of different alignments, there is a 50% probability that they attack each other. The bickering lasts for 5d4 rounds, the fighting for 2d4 rounds.  A successful Will save (DC X) negates the effect.   This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




that might just work, but i don't know if it needs to be tied to the symbol spell anymore.  maybe the same description, but with the references to symbol left out, and the relevant parts from symbol for it to work right left in.  also, maybe instead of "50%" to attack, there should be a Will save?



> Was that the ulitharid?




don't think so.  but now that i think about it, it might just have been another monster we've worked on recently.


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that might just work, but i don't know if it needs to be tied to the symbol spell anymore.  maybe the same description, but with the references to symbol left out, and the relevant parts from symbol for it to work right left in.  also, maybe instead of "50%" to attack, there should be a Will save?




Well, they would get a Will save anyway to negate it all.  I think the 50% is more like the randomness of the confusion spell.  You could probably ditch it, though.   It might make more sense for opposing alignments on the law/chaos or good/evil axis to attack each other.   I don't really see a lawful good and neutral good character having that much to fight about.


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## BOZ (Dec 28, 2003)

maybe it could be similar to the effect from the confusion spell, except that you attack each other every round?


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

That sounds like a good mechanic.


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## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

i decided to keep it simple and just rework the power slightly like this:

Discord (Sp): Once per day, an utukku can cause all creatures within 60 feet to immediately fall to loud bickering and arguing, allowing them to take no other actions. If affected creatures are of different alignments, there is a 50% probability that they attack each other. The bickering lasts for 5d4 rounds, any fighting for 2d4 rounds. A successful Will save (DC X) negates the effect. This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> -How do we want to work this:  "Utukku are immune to any sort of mental probing, such as ESP and telepathy."




let's see, this is the closest i could find:

Immunities (Ex): A golden ammonite's alien thought processes render it immune to all magical and psionic mind-influencing effects, detections, and illusions.


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i decided to keep it simple and just rework the power slightly like this:
> 
> Discord (Sp): Once per day, an utukku can cause all creatures within 60 feet to immediately fall to loud bickering and arguing, allowing them to take no other actions. If affected creatures are of different alignments, there is a 50% probability that they attack each other. The bickering lasts for 5d4 rounds, any fighting for 2d4 rounds. A successful Will save (DC X) negates the effect. This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.




That'll work!     



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> let's see, this is the closest i could find:
> 
> Immunities (Ex): A golden ammonite's alien thought processes render it immune to all magical and psionic mind-influencing effects, detections, and illusions.




Maybe we could rewrite it a bit to avoid the "alien thought process" bit?   Perhaps "An utukku's powerful mental capabilities..." instead?

Also, I almost missed it, but the utukku has psionic abilities.   Any ideas on how they should work?  I know very little about either 1E or 3E psionics.


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## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

/me casts "summon (psi)severed head"

how about:
Iron Mind (Ex): An utukku is  immune to all magical and psionic mind-affecting divination effects, including telepathy.


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

Great name!     That should work.


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## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

hey, i can't access the Wizards boards at work... anyone feel like going into the PsiHB forum and advertising the utukku in this thread?


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

Done.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155845


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## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

somehow i was able to open that link.    that's certainly cool.    usually they block anything from the WotC site.


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## DarkTouch (Dec 29, 2003)

There was a fairly significant paradigm shift between 1st Edition and 2nd Edition psionics. You'll notice that while the utukku has psionic abilities, it doesn't have any disciplines. This was fairly common in 1st edition where the main thrust of having psionics was the ability to engadge in psionic combat. Having other abilities was just a perk, not the point.

As of 2nd edition's psionics handbook a psionicist was much more like a spellcaster, although they were really more like having feats.. not quite so flashy as spells but still useful. 3E shifted psionics all the way over to the spell paradigm.

Honestly, most 1st Ed. Demons were psionic to one level or another. The utukku seems not much more powerful that way than most other demons.. I would probably drop it. Immunity to [Mind-Affecting] effects should be enough to cover the immunity to psionic Telepathy.

Two options you might consider:
1. Add in a toned down version of the Mind Flayer's Mind Blast to replicate a psionic attack form.

2. The names of the Psionic attack and defense modes having changed since 1st ed. The BE / FH line refers to specific attack and defense modes the creature has. I don't know them off the top of my head though. You could just give it those 4 combat modes available at will.


One final thing to keep in mind is that Psionics aren't 3.5 yet. The 3.5 Psionics book should be coming out in about 3 months and anything that I suggest here might well be subject to change then.


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

That was great information, DarkTouch.  Thanks for sharing!


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## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

DarkTouch said:
			
		

> There was a fairly significant paradigm shift between 1st Edition and 2nd Edition psionics. You'll notice that while the utukku has psionic abilities, it doesn't have any disciplines. This was fairly common in 1st edition where the main thrust of having psionics was the ability to engadge in psionic combat. Having other abilities was just a perk, not the point.




the odd thing there, is this from the original article:

"Though they are psionic, utukku have no major or minor disciplines."

mr. moore went to the trouble to point that out.  of course, this was written fairly late in 1E (1984) and that might have a lot to do with that.


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## DarkTouch (Dec 29, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the odd thing there, is this from the original article:
> 
> "Though they are psionic, utukku have no major or minor disciplines."
> 
> mr. moore went to the trouble to point that out.  of course, this was written fairly late in 1E (1984) and that might have a lot to do with that.




It could also represent the nature of his gaming group. The paradigm shift that I was talking about refered to the way the rules were written, not so much the way people played. I myself could have cared less about my ability to mind blast an opponent, being able to psionically transform my hand into a blade while walking on water was infinitly cooler.

Psionic combat was always something to be terrified of. Large portions of the psionic damage table involved year long comas and instant death.


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## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

thanks for the help and advice - stick around for more, if you like.  



			
				DarkTouch said:
			
		

> Honestly, most 1st Ed. Demons were psionic to one level or another. The utukku seems not much more powerful that way than most other demons.. I would probably drop it. Immunity to [Mind-Affecting] effects should be enough to cover the immunity to psionic Telepathy.




true, true... but this little bugger is fairly unique, and keeping him with psionics would make him even more unique.    i vote to keep psionics for him.


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## BOZ (Dec 31, 2003)

OK, rather than let this thing sit forever, I’m making a decision on it.  Since, as darktouch pointed out, the psionics rules are due to make an overhaul we’ll just do what we did with the ulitharid – set up the basics, and leave it alone for the moment to be fixed later.

By “Though they are psionic, utukku have no major or minor disciplines” the author was probably (IMHO) inferring that they have no psionic powers, but they do have access to two attacks and defenses each.  Now what I want to know is if “BE / FH” really means “B&E / F&H” or if there is some sort of attack/defense mode that I’m unaware of.

Unless someone tells me otherwise, I’m going to assume that’s the case.  In 1E those would be:
B. Mind Thrust
E. Psychic Crush
F. Mind Blank
H. Mental Barrier
Mind Blank, I do believe, is now called Empty Mind.

Thoughts?


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2003)

I know very little about psionics.   However, a search of the SRD revealed that Mind Blank still exists.  The other three don't appear to be around anymore, or have changed names.

Mind Blank
Telepathy (Cha)
Level: Psion 8
Display: Ol
Manifestation Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 day
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Power Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Power Points: 15
The subject is totally protected from all devices and power that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This protects against all mind-affecting powers and effects, as well as information gathering by Clairsentience powers or effects (except metafaculty). Mind blank even foils extraordinary powers and spells (such as limited wish, miracle, and wish) when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about him or her. In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area that the creature is in, the power works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Remote viewing and scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
Mind blank is not effective against psionic attack modes.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Dec 31, 2003)

Sorry about being late ... holidays and all 



> Unless someone tells me otherwise, I’m going to assume that’s the case. In 1E those would be:
> B. Mind Thrust
> E. Psychic Crush
> F. Mind Blank
> ...




Hmm... there's a big problem here, and that is the nature of psionic combat.

In 3.0, psionic combat (except Mind Blast) only seriously works against psionic opponents. As a result, the monster will have an oddly different CR if he's facing psionic opponents or not.

The second is that 3.0 psionic combat isn't worth the time to use. While he's using a standard action to whittle a psion's stats, he could just ... walk up to him and rip him to pieces, or use a spell-like ability.

(The effect is devastating on a low-level psion, but only in the long-term. It's more of a curse than an attack form.)

Now, by giving it defense modes and declaring it a psionic creature, it is now vulnerable to psionic combat _in theory_. In practice no one is going to use attack modes on it.

I don't know much about 1e psionic combat, but I think it only worked on psionic opponents too. It was deadlier... probably too deadly. And if it only worked on psionic creatures, then Mind Blast should not be included (since it's basically a power, rather than an attack mode - depsite being treated as an attack mode in the Illithiad).

My suggestion is to either give it a minor anti-psionic ability (such as a power that disrupts the ability to use psionics like a 3.5 silver sword for several rounds) or drop the psionics from the monster entirely.


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## Krishnath (Jan 1, 2004)

Simple fix for the (anti-)psionic problem. Use have it continually emit a 60' radius _Catapsi_ field, it's pretty much an anti magic field against psionics. It's crude, but it should get the effect across nicely.


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## BOZ (Jan 1, 2004)

actually, i'm going to make it really simple.    i'm going to leave out the psionics altogether until the PsiHB 3.5 comes out, then reevaluate whether or not i want to give psionics back to them.


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## Krishnath (Jan 1, 2004)

That could work too.


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## BOZ (Jan 2, 2004)

in that case, posting the current working version in homebrews...


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> in that case, posting the current working version in homebrews...




Based on this passage, "Utukku always use their clawed hands to slash at foes rather than using weapons", I'd use claw for the Attack line.

I like DR 10/good for it.

Discord save DC should be 14, right?

LA should probably be "-".  A babau is lower HD and CR, has less good abilities, and has no LA.


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## BOZ (Jan 2, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Discord save DC should be 14, right?




not 19?

these guys are lookin pretty done, i'll post a new monster tonight to convert.    (vulturehound sound good?)


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## BOZ (Jan 3, 2004)

here we go, simple and straightforward:

Vulturehounds
Created by Chris Chalmers and Dan Pollak
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 4-24
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 18”/10”
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 40%
TREASURE TYPE: J(x10), K(x10), L(x5), M,N
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1(3)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: (1-3/1 -3)/1 -6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (4’ Long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Vulturehounds are a bizarre combination of vulture and wild dog. They have long, grayish, shaggy hair, and dog-like legs ending in sharp, curved talons. Protruding from their sides are a pair of small wings, and they have a sharp beak in place of a muzzle.

These voracious carnivores foray out from their dens in hunting packs in search of food, which they drag back to their lair to devour. The scant treasure found there will be from their previous victims.

In battle, Vulturehounds will rear up on their hind legs by flapping their wings, thus being able to attack with the two front talons and the beak. If unable to rear up in this fashion, they can only employ their beaks. These creatures gain their high Armor Class rating because of their speed and dexterity.

If Vulturehounds are found in their lair, there is a 50% chance of there being 3-12 pups. Pups have 1-4 hit points, cannot fly, and bite for 1-2 or 1-3 depending on size. Pups bring 500-1,000 g.p. on the open market; they can be trained for war, or hunting, because these animals have a keen sense of smell.


some preliminary stats for the vulturehound:

*Vulturehound*
Small Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 2d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares), fly 25 ft (average??)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d6+X)
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (1d3+X) and bite +X melee (1d6+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: X
Special Qualities: X
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X 
Abilities: Str X, Dex X (“high” - 18?), Con X, Int 2, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: X
Organization: (4-24)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: ?
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Small); 5-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: +X



COMBAT


Dragon Magazine #37 (“Dragon’s Bestiary,” May 1980, Chris Chalmers and Dan Pollak)


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> not 19?




You're right.  I'm not sure what I was thinking.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2004)

For the vulturehound's abiltities, here are those of similar creatures:

Gryphon - Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 8
Hippogriff - Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Dog - Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Based on the above, and considering its Small size, I'd suggest:

Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8

Should we also give it scent (all of the above creatures have it)?


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## Krishnath (Jan 5, 2004)

Yes, give it scent, and a resistance bonus on saves against diseases, say +4 or some such.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2004)

I reworked the stat block to account for our last few suggestions.

*Vulturehound*
Small Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 2d10+4 (15 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares), fly 25 ft (average??)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-1
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d3+1) and bite -1 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5 (+9 vs. disease) Ref +6 Will +1 
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Skills: 5 total
Feats: 1 (Weapon Finesse?)

Environment: X
Organization: Flock or pack? (4-24)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: ?
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Small); 5-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: +X (cohort?)


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## BOZ (Jan 9, 2004)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> resistance bonus on saves against diseases, say +4 or some such.




why?


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## BOZ (Jan 9, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Level Adjustment: +X (cohort?)




the text does say that pups can be trained, right?


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## BOZ (Jan 9, 2004)

taking a look at the Savage Coast MC entry to see what i can gain from that...

would "steppe" be more like desert or plains?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the text does say that pups can be trained, right?




That it does.    

That reminds me...

*Training a Vulturehound*

Training a vulturehound as a hunting or guard animal requires a successful Handle Animal check (DC X young, DC X adult). Vulturehound pups are worth 500-1,000 gp on the open market. Professional trainers charge X gp to rear or train a vulturehound.


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## BOZ (Jan 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> would "steppe" be more like desert or plains?




anyone?  

also, i had a thought:

i would like to give them Alertness to make them more hound-like.  and Survival for a skill, in addition to Listen and Spot.


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## Krishnath (Jan 12, 2004)

A steppe is a dry grassland, so... both actually fit.

I would go with temperate and warm desert and plains.


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## BOZ (Jan 12, 2004)

hmm, no wonder i was having a hard time deciding.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> anyone?




What Krishnath said.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> also, i had a thought:
> 
> i would like to give them Alertness to make them more hound-like.  and Survival for a skill, in addition to Listen and Spot.




Good idea.


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

posting in homebrews.  Weapon Finesse was suggested... i could give that to them as a bonus feat, but for a low CR creature like this i don't think it's necessary.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2004)

CR 1 seems reasonable.

As for LA, this is a tough call.   Looking at comparable creatures...

Griffon: LA +3 (cohort)  
Hippogriff: LA -  
Dog: LA -
Giant Eagle:  +2 (cohort)
Giant Owl:  +2 (cohort)

Weight:  40 lbs.?

It should be DC 25 for the Handle Animal check. (DC 20 for guard, +5 for magical beast).

Professional trainers charge 500 gp to rear or train a vulturehound?


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

i'd go with +2 (cohort)


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2004)

Sounds good to me.


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

updating, then.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2004)

It looks like it's done except for the treasure entry.  How about half standard?


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

50% coins, none of the rest?


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2004)

That's fine, or you can just put "Half standard" to represent a smattering of the remains of their prey, but in less quantity than a usual encounter of that level.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2004)

Bump.


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## BOZ (Jan 16, 2004)

just need to pick out something to do...


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2004)

I'm still rooting for the Great Wyrm from the original Creature Catalog.


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## BOZ (Jan 16, 2004)

i'll have a look at it, at least.    i had some ideas, but can't remember them at the moment...


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## BOZ (Jan 18, 2004)

I’m intensely curious as to whether or not this monster was created by “you-know-who-with-the-same-name.”    it does feature an illustration by the author after all…


KROLLI
Created by Todd Lockwood

FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: 10”/18”
HIT DICE: 2-6 + 2/die
% LAIR:10%
TREASURE TYPE: A in lair, Q individual
NO. ATTACKS: 3 (4)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Bite: 2-7, rear claw 2-9, hand 1-8 or by weapon (+4 damage w/weapon)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: High dexterity, multiple attacks
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Acute senses: surprised only on a 1
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
INTELLIGENCE: Average to very
ALIGNMENT: See below
SIZE: Average; (7-8’ tall, 17-20’ wingspan)
PSIONIC ATTACK/DEFENSE MODES: Nil

Remote, less traveled parts of the world, away from humans, are inhabited by Krolli, a strong race of warm-blooded flying reptilians. They form solitary communities, or eyries, (3-60 in lair, 25% women and young, with 2-3 and ½ hit die each, respectively, and 1-8 7 + 2-hit-die chieftains) which are greatly self-supportive. Krolli live to about 125 years of age.
The Krolli, however, are seldom met at home. While they don’t relish the company of humans (and their cousins), they appreciate the wealth to be had in dealing with men, and venture forward to ply their trades.
Krolli encountered among men are generally mercenaries or slavers, when the price is right, though they have been seen as bodyguards or even military officers. Some Neutral and Evil clans use slaves to work fields and mine gems for profit. In short, if profit is to be had among men, Krolli are not averse to investigating the possibilities—but they never intentionally build their eyries within the general sphere of human influence.
Krolli have a high natural dexterity (18/00), 18/89 strength, and extremely acute senses. Rigorous training from youth enhances these qualities, enabling them to attack with a vicious 3/1 (hand, hand, bite) ratio when standing, or a 4/1 (combo of hand, claw, bite) when airborne. They fight at 3/1 in the air when employing weapons, and there is a 70% chance that no weapon will be used. Krolli can melee with a standing opponent from the air. Note that with a shield, their armor class becomes 2.
Krolli cannot fly for long periods of time, but are easily capable of overtaking a fast horse and rider.
Krolli may be of almost any class, though 95% will be Fighters. Of the remaining 5%, 70% will be Clerics. They can wear no armor, though they often (50%) carry shields. Krolli are almost never Thieves or Assassins.
Krolli are aligned as follows: 60% Neutral, 20% Lawful, and 20% Chaotic (each with 20% chance good, 10% evil).
Krolli eggs have no value on the open market.



some preliminary stats for the krolli:

*Krolli*
Medium Monstrous? Humanoid
Hit Dice: 2d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares), fly 50 ft (average?)
Armor Class: 17 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: ?
Full Attack: 2 slams +X melee (1d8+X) and bite +X melee (1d6+X) or 2 slams +X melee (1d8+X) and rear claw +X melee (1d8+X) and bite +X melee (1d6+X) or weapon +X/+X melee (X+X) and bite +X melee (1d6+X) – hope I got that right!
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: X
Special Qualities: spell resistance 16
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex 18+, Con X, Int 11, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 1

Environment: X 
Organization: 1-20 or aerie (3-60 krolli, 25% women and young, plus 1-8 7-HD chieftains)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard?
Alignment: Often neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X

A krolli stands 7-8 feet tall, with a 17-20 foot wingspan

COMBAT

Favored class – Fighter?

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #36 (“Dragon’s Bestiary,” April 1980, Todd Lockwood).


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## Axe (Jan 20, 2004)

The hunting hound first appeared in Dragon #102, _A Collection of Canines_, by Stephen Innes. I don't have the magazine, but I worked from the SRD entries of the riding dog and wolf. (I've got a ranger who just hit 4th level and I want a deerhound for an animal companion.)

DOG, Hunting Hound

Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +2, Jump +4, Listen +5, Move Silently +3, Spot +5, Swim +3, Survival +1*
Feats: Alertness, TrackB
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary or pack (5–12)
Challenge Rating: 1
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —
This category includes large hunters, such as deerhounds and wolfhounds.
Carrying Capacity: A light load for a hunting hound is up to 100 pounds; a medium load, 101–200 pounds; and a heavy load, 201–300 pounds. A hunting hound can drag 1,500 pounds.
Combat
If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry). 
Skills: Hunting hounds have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks. *Hunting hounds have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.  


For reference, from the SRD:
DOG, RIDING

Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3, Survival +1*
Feats: Alertness, TrackB
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or pack (5–12)
Challenge Rating: 1
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —
This category includes working breeds such as collies, huskies, and St. Bernards.
Carrying Capacity: A light load for a riding dog is up to 100 pounds; a medium load, 101–200 pounds; and a heavy load, 201–300 pounds. A riding dog can drag 1,500 pounds.
Combat
If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry). A riding dog can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.
Skills: Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks. *Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

WOLF

Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple:
+1/+2
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Spot +3, Survival +1*
Feats: TrackB, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (7–16)
Challenge Rating: 1
Advancement: 3 HD (Medium); 4–6 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —
Wolves are pack hunters known for their persistence and cunning.
Combat
A favorite tactic is to send a few individuals against the foe’s front while the rest of the pack circles and attacks from the flanks or rear.
Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf. 
Skills: *Wolves have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


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## Filby (Jan 20, 2004)

If it's of any help, Boz, the krolli, too, was also in the Savage Coast MC under 'Lizard-kin'.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2004)

I'd go with Monstrous Humanoid (Reptilian).

They can have a reptilian party with the Ingundi.


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## Krishnath (Jan 20, 2004)

I concur.


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## Shade (Jan 21, 2004)

I believe I read somewhere that Todd Lockwood did occasionally "stat out" some of his artwork in Dragon.

Since an 18/00 Strength translates to a 3E score of 23, I'd suggest doing likewise for the Dexterity of the krolli.  By the same guide, its 18/89 Strength should become 21 in 3E.

"Acute senses: surprised only on a 1" would seem to translate to high Spot and Listen skills (and possibly racial bonuses) and the Alertness feat (possibly as a bonus feat).

Krolli Characters

Most krolli are fighters, and fighter is their favored class.  Krolli clerics are also common, and they have access to two of the following domains: X, X, or X.  Few krolli become rogues.

Krolli speak Common and Draconic.


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## BOZ (Jan 21, 2004)

good call on the Dex.    and yes, an entry like that does usually call for a racial bonus to Spot and Listen
 (just like surprise bonuses usually translate to Hide and/or Move Silently bonuses)


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

For the remaining ability scores, how about Con 15, Wis 10, Cha 10?


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

those sound fine.


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2004)

That being the case, here's where we're at so far...

*Krolli*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Reptilian)
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares), fly 50 ft (average?)
Armor Class: 17 (+6 Dex, +1 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+7
Attack: ?
Full Attack: 2 slams +7 melee (1d8+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2) or 2 slams +7 melee (1d8+5) and rear claw +2 melee (1d8+2) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2) or weapon +7/+2 melee (X+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: X
Special Qualities:  Darkvision 60 ft., spell resistance 16
Saves: Fort +2 Ref +9 Will +3
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 23, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: 10
Feats: 1 (Alertness or Multiattack?)

Environment: X 
Organization: 1-20 or aerie (3-60 krolli, 25% women and young, plus 1-8 7-HD chieftains)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard?
Alignment: Often neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X

A krolli stands 7-8 feet tall, with a 17-20 foot wingspan, and weighs X pounds.

Krolli speak Common and Draconic.

COMBAT

Skills:   Krolli have a +X racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks.

Krolli Characters

Most krolli are fighters, and fighter is their favored class. Krolli clerics are also common, and they have access to two of the following domains: X, X, or X. Few krolli become rogues.

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #36 (“Dragon’s Bestiary,” April 1980, Todd Lockwood).


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2004)

Got a pic of these guys handy?  The ingundi pic helped me visualize them.

If not, I'll just check the Dragon Mag archive over the weekend.


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

i don't want to clutter up the boards by adding too many pictures, but i don't mind doing it for some of the less familiar ones.  you'll see from this pic that krolli are very different in appearance from ingundi.  and from lizardfolk.  

so, you think this "todd lockwood" is our boy, with 20 years less experience at drawing?


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

Thanks for posting the pic.   I do think this is *the* Todd Lockwood.

It reminds me a bit of the saurials.


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## BOZ (Feb 2, 2004)

yes, very saurial-like indeed.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

OK, sat on these guys too long (but hey, maybe that will help them hatch?) so time to get a move on.  There’s not *that* much to do here, so they shouldn’t take too long.  Let’s have a look at the text that would be relevant to examine:



			
				Dragon #36 said:
			
		

> Remote, less traveled parts of the world, away from humans, are inhabited by Krolli, a strong race of warm-blooded flying reptilians.
> 
> They form solitary communities, or eyries, (3-60 in lair, 25% women and young, with 2-3 and ½ hit die each, respectively, and 1-8 7 + 2-hit-die chieftains) which are greatly self-supportive.
> 
> ...




Maybe they could use Scent since they have “extremely acute senses”?


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Maybe they could use Scent since they have “extremely acute senses”?



Or make a 20ft blindsight... dragons have extremely acute senses, but make it a scale smaller.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

Either scent, blindsense, or both would work.   You could also grant them a  racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks to represent "acute senses".  Or give them Alertness as a bonus feat.

Most of the stuff you listed could be put in a "Krolli Society" section.

I think the krolli are worthy of a full "Krolli as Characters" writeup.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

i agree.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

> The Krolli, however, are seldom met at home. While they don’t relish the company of humans (and their cousins), they appreciate the wealth to be had in dealing with men, and venture forward to ply their trades.
> 
> Krolli encountered among men are generally mercenaries or slavers, when the price is right, though they have been seen as bodyguards or even military officers. Some Neutral and Evil clans use slaves to work fields and mine gems for profit. In short, if profit is to be had among men, Krolli are not averse to investigating the possibilities—but they never intentionally build their eyries within the general sphere of human influence.




The Appraise skill would seem a good fit for them.



> Rigorous training from youth enhances these qualities, enabling them to attack with a vicious 3/1 (hand, hand, bite) ratio when standing, or a 4/1 (combo of hand, claw, bite) when airborne. They fight at 3/1 in the air when employing weapons, and there is a 70% chance that no weapon will be used. Krolli can melee with a standing opponent from the air.




Hmmm...maybe give them the Hover feat?



> Note that with a shield, their armor class becomes 2.




Should we include a shield in the statblock?[/QUOTE]


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## BOZ (Feb 7, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Should we include a shield in the statblock?




nah, i got it in the flavor text now.


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## Shade (Feb 8, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> nah, i got it in the flavor text now.




That'll work.  It makes the statblock less complicated, too.


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2004)

it's complicated enough already, especially with that attack form list.  

posting in homebrews


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2004)

Some comments...

Average maneuverability sounds right.

For its manufactured weapon, how about a longspear?  That way it has reach, but still can use its bite attack up close.

Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d8+5) or weapon +7 melee (X+5) 

Skills:  How about Appraise 3, Intimidate 3, Listen 2, Spot 2?

Feat:  I think Multiattack gives them the greatest benefit.

Domains:  Strength, War, and Protection (bodyguard aspect)?


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## BOZ (Feb 11, 2004)

the picture shows them using what is probably a longsword, or a scimitar.  but i could see longspear.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2004)

Scimitar is cool, too.    I just thought it would be refreshing to give a critter something other than a longsword, greatsword, or greataxe for a change.


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## BOZ (Feb 11, 2004)

i know, that's why i'd like to keep the longspear.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2004)

Great!


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2004)

Just in case the krolli wraps up during the convert-a-thon, I'd like to once again take a moment to request the Great Wyrm from Creature Catalog II (Dragon #94).


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

LOL  we'll see... when i'm at home with time on my hands, i'll probably look it up.

(BTW, change in plans, she is only working friday and saturday now... less free time for me, but i should still be around quite a bit.)


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

Krolli thoughts…

As is common for 1E references, there is no environment listed.  Suggest something based on “Remote, less traveled parts of the world, away from humans, are inhabited by Krolli, a strong race of warm-blooded flying reptilians.”  Perhaps mountainous regions?  Or they live in tree-tops?  Or marshes?
Or we could just make it easy on ourselves and go with “Any land.”  

CR… 1?  Or ½?

Weight… 250?  275?  300?  325?

+2 bonus to Listen and Spot?  +4?  +6?

Besides that, I think we need an LA, and then we’ll be just about ready to write up the As Characters section.    here’s a little bit of that so far:

• Size Medium. 
• Darkvision out to 60 feet. 
• Racial Hit Dice: A krolli begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +3. 
• Racial Skills: A krolli's monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Appraise, Intimidate, Listen, and Spot.
• Racial Feats: A krolli’s monstrous humanoid levels give it one feat. 
• +1 natural armor bonus.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2004)

Temperate or warm lands.

CR 2, possibly 3.  Its got 2 HD, spell resistance, blindsense, scent, and can fly.  A bugbear is CR 2, with 3 HD and scent, but has worse ability scores.  I'm leaning towards 3.

Weight… 300.

+2 bonus to Listen and Spot.

LA:
+1 for flight
+1 for natural armor
+1 for spell resistance
+1 for scent
+1 for unbalanced stats
------------------------
+5


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

LA that high?  wow.

Edit: actually, thinking about some of that stuff, +5 does kind of make sense.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2004)

I was surprised too.  I think I made a generalization that it was just a slightly better lizardfolk with wings, but it has some rocking stats and SQs.


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## BOZ (Feb 16, 2004)

any more thoughts on krolli?  updating in homebrews.

i have one question - do you think i handled this right?

"Rigorous training from youth enhances these qualities, enabling them to attack with a vicious 3/1 (hand, hand, bite) ratio when standing, or a 4/1 (combo of hand, claw, bite) when airborne. They fight at 3/1 in the air when employing weapons, and there is a 70% chance that no weapon will be used. Krolli can melee with a standing opponent from the air."

as: Full Attack: 2 slams +7 melee (1d8+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2) or 2 slams +7 melee (1d8+5) and rear claw +2 melee (1d8+2) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2) or longspear +7/+2 melee (1d8+5/x3) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2)


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

You did well.  You might also want to add flavor text to the Combat section similar to the wyvern:

"A wyvern can slash with its talons only when making a flyby attack."

Extrapolating to something like...

"A krolli can slash with its rear claws only when airborne."


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

so it looks good?  what else to we need to add to the "as characters" section?


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

Skills: 
Here ya go.   I noticed that we still need a range for its blindsense.


+10 Strength, +12 Dexterity, +4 Constitution. 
Medium size. 
A krolli's base land speed is 25 feet.  It also has a fly speed of 50 feet (average). 
Darkvision: Krolli can see in the dark up to 60 feet. 
Racial Hit Dice: A krolli begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +3. 
Racial Skills: A krolli's monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Appraise, Intimidate, Listen, and Spot.  Krolli have a +2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks.
Racial Feats: A krolli’s monstrous humanoid levels give it one feat. 
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A krolli is automatically proficient with all simple weapons, longspear, and shields. 
+1 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: 2 slams (1d8), bite (1d6) and rear claws (1d8). 
Special Qualities (see above): Blindsense X ft., scent, spell resistance 16. 
Automatic Languages: Common, Draconic. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Goblin, Gnoll, Orc. (Note--borrowed from lizardfolk entry)
Favored Class: Fighter. 
Level adjustment +5.


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

blindsense - really?  how about 60.


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

we could switch up Auran for Aquan.


how's it lookin now?  done?


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> blindsense - really?  how about 60.




Really what?  That it needs a range?  Yep...check out the dragons overview.  

60 feet sounds good.

I like the suggestion for replacing Aquan with Auran.

It looks like it's finished.  Woo-hoo!


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

cooool.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2004)

So, are we ready for the next critter?   If so, I'd like to once again place a request for the great wyrm from Dragon #94, Creature Catalog II.   

[You can never have too many ancient dragon-like critters.]


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## BOZ (Mar 3, 2004)

*roll eyes*

I keep meaning to have a look at that, but I have spent so little time on my home computer lately…


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2004)

No problem.  I haven't seen much of mine lately, either.


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## BOZ (Mar 6, 2004)

I guess we can do this one, since the distinction is made that they are not the same as ordinary dragons.  for one thing, this one doesn't appear to be a flyer.

Dragon Magazine #94 (“Creature Catalog II,” February 1986, Roger Moore)

WYRM, Great
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -1
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 13-15
% IN LAIR: 45%
TREASURE TYPE: H, Z
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-24/4-24/4-40
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Regeneration; detect invisible beings
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 5%
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (60’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: 13-14 HD, IX/9200 + 18/hp; 15 HD, X/12,200 + 20/hp

Great wyrms are distant relatives of dragons and dragonkind, a dying breed that has become more rare with each passing year. Wingless, six-legged intelligent reptiles, great wyrms lair far from civilized areas.
These gray-green beasts are so rarely seen that encountering one is considered a lucky (or unlucky) omen. Great wyrms are so old that some are said to remember the early days of their world, and a few kingdoms protect and defend their wyrms for the information they possess (though the wyrms charge steep prices for such knowledge). Great wyrms speak their own tongue and no other, though they apparently understand many languages and will answer questions put to them in a variety of dialects and tongues.
Malign, crafty, and indirect in speech and thought, some great wyrms are also senile, and a few are said to be insane. No new wyrms have been born for centuries, and it is generally believed that these monsters are aware that their species is headed for extinction. Certainly the wyrms say little about this, and tend to eat those who are bold enough to ask them about it.
A great wyrm is capable of breathing out a cloud of poisonous gas four times a day; such a cloud is 60 yards long, 30 yards wide and 26 yards high, and all who are caught within it must save vs. breath weapon or suffer the poison’s effects. Victims who breathe the fumes will be immediately incapacitated by choking and nausea, collapsing at once without defending themselves or attacking in any way. The victims will then die in 1-4 rounds. Saving against the breath weapon will reduce the victim to half of his former hit points (round fractions up) and will leave him choking and gasping; he will, however, be able to attack at -2 “to hit” odds, and can defend himself, though without armor class bonuses for dexterity. These latter effects will last 4-16 rounds.
In addition, great wyrms are able to regenerate their wounds to a limited extent. While they cannot rebond severed limbs, they can heal wounds at a rate of 1 hp every two rounds. Although this does not greatly affect combat, it allows the wyrm to recover quickly from serious injuries if given a chance to rest. Wounds caused by fire cannot be rehealed, though those caused by acid can be healed normally.
Great wyrms pass through the same life stages that dragons do, but no wyrms younger than “old” are known to exist. They also come in the same size categories, and can detect hidden or invisible creatures within a 1” range per age level. They live about ten times as long as regular dragons, so an old wyrm is probably between 1000 and 2000 years old.
All wyrms possess the fear aura of dragons, but regardless of their age, the wyrms have the aura effect operate without bonuses to the victims’ saving throws. Great wyrms, because of their innate egotism and strength of will, cannot ever be subdued; attacking one in this manner is a grave mistake. Wyrms cannot cast magic.
Because great wyrms are so old, each one has at least one especially vulnerable spot upon its body. The dragon’s scaly hide will have been damaged by disease, combat, or by general wear and tear at these points, and nervous ganglia tend to gather there. During physical combat, a person striking at a great wyrm with a sharp-edged weapon (including arrows and hurled hand axes and daggers) has a 1% chance of accidentally hitting such a vulnerable spot. The blow will strike the dragon as if against AC 4, and the blow will do double damage to the wyrm. The wyrm will immediately retreat if struck in such a spot, and will attempt to find safety and recover from the wound. Magical attacks, even magic missiles, will not affect the wyrm in this way. If a vulnerable spot is located and recognized, attackers may strike at the spot further unless the wyrm covers the spot or moves it out of reach of weapons.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

Bless you, BOZ!   

Here's an attempt at a starter stat block:

Great Wyrm
Gargantuan Dragon (Air?)
Hit Dice: 13d12+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (-4 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (4d10+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (4d10+X) and 2 claws +44 melee (4d6+X)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, fast healing X, frightful presence 
Special Qualities: Blindsense X ft., darkvision 60 ft., immunities (disease, paralysis, sleep), low-light vision, spell resistance 11
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 112
Feats: 5
Environment: X
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: 14-26 HD (Gargantuan); 27-39 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: -


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Bless you, BOZ!




what, did i sneeze?


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

BTW, "gezundheit" sounds like a powerful tanar'ri, doesn't it?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

Here are some comparable-sized dragons for ability score ideas:

Desert landwyrm:  Str 35, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 21, Wis 17, Cha 20
Swamp landwyrm:  Str 39, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 24
Corpse tearer linnorm:  Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
Swamp linnorm:  Str 32, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 15, Wis 20, Cha 18
Storm drake:  Str 35, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 15, Wis 19, Cha 20

Thus:  Str 32-39, Dex 9-13, Con 24-27, Int 12, Wis 17-20, Cha 18-24.

Since its Int is a bit lower than its peers, we could either raise it up, or lower Wis and Cha as well.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

raising Int would be a good idea.  looking at the 1E MM, it would be on par with a blue or maybe a green dragon of the appropriate age category.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

Cool.  I thought that these guys looked awfully underpowered in comparison to other dragons.  Do they need a HD boost as well?


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

Probably.

For comparison’s sake, here are the 1E dragons’ HD from the MM:

Black: 6-8
Blue: 8-10
Brass: 6-8
Bronze: 8-10
Chromatic (Tiamat): 16
Copper: 7-9
Gold: 10-12
Green: 7-9
Platinum (Bahamut): 21
Red: 9-11
Silver: 9-11
White: 5-7


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

Yikes!   

So these guys were second only to Bahamut in HD?  If so, I'd say that they are in bad need of HD inflation, since right now they're comparable to a juvenile white dragon!  :\


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

no, tiamat still had more HD.  nowadays, Bahamut has 53 HD, Tiamat has 49, and a GW gold dragon has 41.  i don't know that i would give these guys more than 41 HD, however i might say that their max advancement should take them between 41-48, just to maintain some far-stretched consistency.    making these guys 16 HD for base would do that trick.

but we might not even want to restrict them to that; the text for our great wyrm says that the base version is like "old" on the dragon chart, so we could make them more powerful than an old gold dragon, say 32-35 HD?

opine, o shady one!


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

32-35 HD sounds perfect.   That would put them a bit more powerful than the greatest of the linnorms, of which they share the "eldest of dragonkind" distinction.   Capping them out at 41-48 sounds good, too.  This would once again make them similar to linnorms, with a small advancement range.

Man, these guys just went from "eh" to "holy crap!".


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2004)

Here's the ability scores for an old gold dragon (or is that a Rold Gold dragon?):

Str 39, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 24 

For the physical stats, this is close to the ability score range I came up with earlier.  The mental stats of the great wyrm are far lower in a straight conversion.

For ease of reference, here was the earlier recommended ability score range:
Thus: Str 32-39, Dex 9-13, Con 24-27, Int 12, Wis 17-20, Cha 18-24.

Also, an old gold has AC 34 and SR 27.   The great wyrm is lacking in these two areas as well.


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## BOZ (Mar 11, 2004)

how bout this then? 

Abilities: Str 39, Dex 13, Con 27, Int X, Wis 20, Cha 24

with 32 HD


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2004)

Cool, although I don't know if it needs that much Dex.   How about Int 20?   

Any thoughts on increasing the natural armor and spell resistance?


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## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

Yeah, we might as well do those, too.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2004)

> Great wyrms, because of their innate egotism and strength of will, cannot ever be subdued; attacking one in this manner is a grave mistake.



Bonus to Will saves?   Iron Will as bonus feat?  Something else?



> Wyrms cannot cast magic.



That's one thing we won't have to worry about.   



> Because great wyrms are so old, each one has at least one especially vulnerable spot upon its body. The dragon’s scaly hide will have been damaged by disease, combat, or by general wear and tear at these points, and nervous ganglia tend to gather there. During physical combat, a person striking at a great wyrm with a sharp-edged weapon (including arrows and hurled hand axes and daggers) has a 1% chance of accidentally hitting such a vulnerable spot. The blow will strike the dragon as if against AC 4, and the blow will do double damage to the wyrm. The wyrm will immediately retreat if struck in such a spot, and will attempt to find safety and recover from the wound. Magical attacks, even magic missiles, will not affect the wyrm in this way. If a vulnerable spot is located and recognized, attackers may strike at the spot further unless the wyrm covers the spot or moves it out of reach of weapons.



This should prove difficult, since there are no "called shots".   Just brainstorming here, but maybe something to the effect of:   "If a critical hit with a slashing or piercing weapon is confirmed on a great wyrm, the weapon's damage mulitplier is increased by 1.  Thus, a longsword deals x3 damage, while a scythe would deal x5."


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## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

hmm, that seems kinda messy, but i'm sure we could work that out.  reminds me of smaug from the hobbit.


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## Krishnath (Mar 13, 2004)

Wha!?!? You're doing another dragon relative? Why wasn't I told?1?! 

Anyways, I have realized that the _Great Wyrm_s name might cause confusion with some people. Suggestion: Renaming them to Greater Landwyrms?

Other than that, I like what you have done so far.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

I agree that the name should change.   I was thinking _elder wyrm_, although they are relatively similar to the landwyrms.   Perhaps _elder landwyrm_ to join the two ideas?


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

I don’t want to start associating them with the landwyrms; this is a separate species.  Elder wrym might just work.  Maybe even great elder wyrm.  

Did some work on the stat block:

*Wyrm, Great*
Gargantuan Dragon (Air?)
Hit Dice: 32d12+256 (467 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: X (-4 size, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+40
Attack: Bite +24 melee (4d10+15)
Full Attack: Bite +24 melee (4d10+15) and 2 claws +19 melee (4d6+7)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, fast healing X, frightful presence 
Special Qualities: Blindsense 60? ft, darkvision 60 ft., immunities (disease, paralysis, sleep), low-light vision, see invisibility?, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +18, Will +25
Abilities: Str 39, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 24
Skills: 385 (Knowledges)
Feats: 5

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: 14-26 HD (Gargantuan); 27-39 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: ---

Speak Draconic and “any”

COMBAT

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #94 (“Creature Catalog II,” February 1986, Roger Moore).


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

Now that's a much more worthy stat block!


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

glad you approve.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

> A great wyrm is capable of breathing out a cloud of poisonous gas four times a day; such a cloud is 60 yards long, 30 yards wide and 26 yards high, and all who are caught within it must save vs. breath weapon or suffer the poison’s effects. Victims who breathe the fumes will be immediately incapacitated by choking and nausea, collapsing at once without defending themselves or attacking in any way. The victims will then die in 1-4 rounds. Saving against the breath weapon will reduce the victim to half of his former hit points (round fractions up) and will leave him choking and gasping; he will, however, be able to attack at -2 “to hit” odds, and can defend himself, though without armor class bonuses for dexterity. These latter effects will last 4-16 rounds.



This sounds kinda like a _cloudkill_ spell, doesn't it?

Here's a stab at it...

*Breath Weapon (Su):* A great wyrm has one type of breath weapon, a 60-foot cone of poisonous gas. Creatures with more than 6 HD within the cone must succeed on a DC 34 Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Constitution damage on its turn each round for the next 4 rounds.  In addition, the creature is suffocating (see the _Dungeon Master's Guide_ for details).  A creature who saves successfully takes only the initial 1d4 points of Constitution damage and is sickened for 4d4 rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

Some other observations:

We should give it a crush attack.  Linnorms have it.  Dragons have it.  Although it cannot fly, it could easily have a good Jump modifier, considering its high Strength.

Tail sweep and/or tail slap would also probably be appropriate.

Keen senses too?   Both dragons and linnorms have 'em.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2004)

It is entitled to 7 nonepic and 4 epic feats.  Since this guy lacks spells and spellcasting, he'll need to be a melee powerhouse.    Here are my suggestions.

Feats:  Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Snatch. 

Epic Feats:  Devastating Critical (bite), Dire Charge, Overwhelming Critical (bite). 
Alternatively, I could see replacing Improved Init and Dire Charge with Improved Critical (claw) and Overwhelming Critical (claw).


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## BOZ (Mar 17, 2004)

I know you really want me to get on this guy.    I’m not ignoring it, just focused on other things… keep posting, I will come back to it and read it sooner or later (hopefully sooner!)


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2004)

No rush.  I'm just really interested in this one so I'm spending more time on it than some of the others.   I'm just posting my ramblings as they come to mind.  Take your time.


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## BOZ (Mar 17, 2004)

np.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2004)

More thoughts...

Suggested Skills:  Appraise, Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any five), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Use Magic Device



> In addition, great wyrms are able to regenerate their wounds to a limited extent. While they cannot rebond severed limbs, they can heal wounds at a rate of 1 hp every two rounds. Although this does not greatly affect combat, it allows the wyrm to recover quickly from serious injuries if given a chance to rest. Wounds caused by fire cannot be rehealed, though those caused by acid can be healed normally.



Maybe they should have regeneration 1 instead of fast healing 1.

*Regeneration (Ex):* A great wyrm takes normal damage from fire.

And I offer a description:

_This creature resembles a six-legged, wingless dragon, ten times as long as a human is tall.  Two large straight horns sweep back above its eyes and frilled ears.  Spines run from the top of its head to the tip of its tail.  Its scaly hide is gray-green, and some scales are missing.  Greenish-yellow vapors rise from its nostrils._


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## Filby (Mar 17, 2004)

Just to add my two cents to this thread, I don't know if the Air subtype is really necessary. It seems to me like this creature is largely inspired by the dragons of legend, which had venemous breath, like the Hydra fought by Hercules. Other than the breath weapon (which is really more about poison than gas, IMO) I think that the great wyrm (and personally I don't believe that a name change is necessary either) is tied much to any element, less so than true dragons.


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## BOZ (Mar 17, 2004)

the main reason i feel a name change is necessary is to prevent confusion.  AFAIK, the term "great wyrm" had no official meaning in 1E AD&D at the time this creature was made up.  the original dragon age chart stopped at 10, so we had no great wyrm - this only changed in 2E, again, AFAIK.  since the meaning of the term changed, i don't think it should be used as-is.  normally i don't make such proclamations, but this is an unusual case.


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## Filby (Mar 18, 2004)

*nod* Gotcha. Fair enough. What's your take on the subtype issue?


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2004)

The subtype can probably go away.  I had suggested it because all true dragons had a subtype.   However, now that I'm looking at the linnorms and landwyrms, which mostly don't have subtypes, it doesn't seem necessary anymore.


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## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

I TOLD you I would get to this thread eventually…  

For the name, the idea of “Great Elder Wyrm” sings to ring true to me.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> ”Great wyrms, because of their innate egotism and strength of will, cannot ever be subdued; attacking one in this manner is a grave mistake.”
> 
> Bonus to Will saves? Iron Will as bonus feat? Something else?




Possibly… wouldn’t this passage have more likely referred to the old 1E aspect of dragons that allowed powerful characters to subdue, rather than kill dragons?  I’m really not sure how that tactic functioned.

As for that vulnerable spot… 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> This should prove difficult, since there are no "called shots". Just brainstorming here, but maybe something to the effect of: "If a critical hit with a slashing or piercing weapon is confirmed on a great wyrm, the weapon's damage mulitplier is increased by 1. Thus, a longsword deals x3 damage, while a scythe would deal x5."




not sure about that, but you’re heading in the right direction.  How about more like the sneak attack bonus?  Maybe an extra 2d6 or something for hitting the weak spot?

For the breath weapon, yes, I suppose emulating cloudkill makes a bit of sense.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We should give it a crush attack. Linnorms have it. Dragons have it. Although it cannot fly, it could easily have a good Jump modifier, considering its high Strength.
> 
> Tail sweep and/or tail slap would also probably be appropriate.
> 
> Keen senses too? Both dragons and linnorms have 'em.




I approve all of this.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe they should have regeneration 1 instead of fast healing 1.




nice idea, but 1 is pretty puss.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I TOLD you I would get to this thread eventually…



You are a man of your word.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For the name, the idea of “Great Elder Wyrm” sings to ring true to me.



I like it.  It is very regal. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Possibly… wouldn’t this passage have more likely referred to the old 1E aspect of dragons that allowed powerful characters to subdue, rather than kill dragons? I’m really not sure how that tactic functioned.



It probably did.   I don't know how that was converted for the true dragons, if at all.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure about that, but you’re heading in the right direction. How about more like the sneak attack bonus? Maybe an extra 2d6 or something for hitting the weak spot?



I don't know.   I figured this would be the toughest part of the critter to convert.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For the breath weapon, yes, I suppose emulating cloudkill makes a bit of sense.



Cool.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I approve all of this.



Great!   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> nice idea, but 1 is pretty puss.



I agree wholeheartedly.  I was basically just arguing for regeneration vs. fast healing.   I'm all for bumping up the amount.


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## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

the description sounds a lot more like regen to me than fast healing, especially adding the part about how it can't heal fire damage.  go higher - 2, 3, even 5!


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

Cool.  How about adding regeneration 5 to the SQ line and the following to the Combat section?

*Regeneration (Ex):* A great wyrm takes normal damage from fire.


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## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

working on this fella now...  how does this sound? 

Advancement: 33-64 HD (Gargantuan); 65-96 HD (Colossal)


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## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

Crush (Ex): A jumping (need specifics?) elder great wyrm can land on opponents three or more sizes smaller than itself as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the elder great wyrm's body. Each creature in the affected area must succeed at a Reflex save (DC X) or be pinned, automatically taking X+X points of bludgeoning damage. The save DC is Constitution-based. Thereafter, if the elder great wyrm chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. While pinned, the opponent takes crush damage each round.

Tail Sweep (Ex): An elder great wyrm can sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects creatures four or more size categories smaller than the elder within a X-foot-radius half-circle centered on the elder's rear. Each affected creature that fails a Reflex save (DC X half) takes X+X points of damage. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

Keen Senses (Ex): An elder great wyrm sees four times as well as a human in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision with a range of 120 feet.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> working on this fella now... how does this sound?
> 
> Advancement: 33-64 HD (Gargantuan); 65-96 HD (Colossal)



This sounds wonderful...and terrifying!   

As for the other abilities, they all look good so far.


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## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

> While they cannot rebond severed limbs, they can heal wounds at a rate of…




should this be implicitly stated under regen?



> [They] can detect hidden or invisible creatures within a 1” range per age level.




should this range matter or should we go with a standard see invisibility?



> All wyrms possess the fear aura of dragons, but regardless of their age, the wyrms have the aura effect operate without bonuses to the victims’ saving throws.




and that?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

and, regarding subduing a dragon, did some research in the old MM.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It probably did.   I don't know how that was converted for the true dragons, if at all.




“An attack on a dragon to subdue, and thus capture it may be opted for… Silver, gold, chromatic and platinum dragons cannot be subdued.  Note that it is impossible for creatures with less than average intelligence to attack to subdue…”

essentially, a subdual attack is exactly that… subdual damage only with all attacks.  The more such damage one does, the greater % chance it will be considered subdued.  The text suggests that you almost have to catch a dragon asleep with a good-sized number of attackers for this tactic to work, or it will kill you first.  

Basically, subduing a dragon makes it your b**ch.    alternatively, you can try to sell it or something.

“A dragon remains subdued for an indefinite period, but if the creature is not strongly held, well treated, given ample treasure, and allowed ample freedom, it will seek to kill its captor and/or escape.  The older and more powerful the dragon, the less the likelihood of it remaining subdued…”

naturally.    I don’t think these rules have any place in a modern D&D game.  However, if you want me to give it Iron Will as a non-bonus feat, I will gladly do so, but I don’t think even that is necessary.


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## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

one more thing for the moment:

i'll post the "weak spot" thing in the rules forum.  we'll see how much of a response i get.   

and, should we say something to the effect of they "speak only Draconic, but can understand X languages"



> Great wyrms speak their own tongue and no other, though they apparently understand many languages and will answer questions put to them in a variety of dialects and tongues.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> should this be implicitly stated under regen?



I don't think its necessary.  It appears that the 3.5 norm is "no reattachment", but those that can (like the troll) specifically mention that they can.

Compare troll to pit fiend to see where I'm coming from. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> should this range matter or should we go with a standard see invisibility?



I figured blindsense would cover this.   Did all dragons used to have this?  If not, standard see invisibility would probabl work. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> and that?



Frightful presence, and possibly, Ability Focus (frightful presence)?


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> naturally.  I don’t think these rules have any place in a modern D&D game. However, if you want me to give it Iron Will as a non-bonus feat, I will gladly do so, but I don’t think even that is necessary.



Agreed, and I also don't think it's necessary.


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## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I don't think its necessary. It appears that the 3.5 norm is "no reattachment", but those that can (like the troll) specifically mention that they can.
> 
> Compare troll to pit fiend to see where I'm coming from.




maybe so, but you might want to have a look at p314 – that seems to suggest otherwise.

I think all dragons used to see invisibility, but maybe not.  But, if all other dragons have blindsense in lieu of see invisibility, we might as well go with the standard and nix that.

Standard frightful presence it is (did we do a write-up of this somewhere already so I don’t have to retype it?) and I don’t think ability focus will be necessary.

And, regarding my third (though less important) post…?


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> and, should we say something to the effect of they "speak only Draconic, but can understand X languages"



Hmmm...that would probably be best.  I was thinking of a continuous comprehend languages effect, but they don't use spells or spell-likes.  Then I thought we could give 'em the Polyglot feat, but that would allow them to speak all languages as well as understand them.   So I guess it is best to leave it as flavor text.


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## BOZ (Mar 22, 2004)

i think these guys are ready to be posted in homebrews.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

Sweetrock.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

For AC, how about 36?  (An old gold has AC 34)

Tail slap:  2d8 (as Gargantuan dragon)?

Reach 20 ft. with bite sounds good.

SR equal to CR + 11 (like linnorms) or around 27 (like old gold dragon)?

Treasure:  Triple standard

Environment:  Any land or underground

Tail sweep:  30 ft., 2d6+21, DC 34.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

Frightful Presence (Ex): An elder great wyrm can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the wyrm attacks, charges, or leaps overhead. Creatures within a radius of 240 feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the wyrm. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 33) remains immune to that wyrm's frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Wyrms ignore the frightful presence of other draconic creatures.

(The above was based off a dragon of the "old" age category.)


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

Crush: 4d6+21, DC 38.Weight: Skip it, like we are with the linnorms?

Add "immunity to _sleep_ and paralysis" to the SQ line.


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## BOZ (Mar 23, 2004)

nah, i say we give this one a weight for the hell of it.


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2004)

Alrighty.  The tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, and it weighs about 130 tons.   So maybe 100-110 tons for our 60-foot long friend here?


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## BOZ (Mar 23, 2004)

fair.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2004)

This guy should be about done.


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## BOZ (Mar 27, 2004)

not so fast there, pilgrim.    we're getting close though...

do we need to list all of these?  isn't there a better way to say it?
SQ: Blindsense 60? ft, darkvision 60 ft, keen senses, low-light vision

how's this?  (i had to switch awesome blow with weapon focus to qualify for some of those other feats):
Skills: Appraise +24, Bluff +27, Climb +24, Decipher Script +21, Diplomacy +31, Disguise +7 (in character +9), Gather Information +29, Intimidate +32, Jump +39, Knowledge (any five) +30, Listen +26, Search +26, Sense Motive +26, Spot +26, Survival +5 (+7 following tracks), Swim +24, Use Magic Device +22 (+24 scrolls)
Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (bite)
Epic Feats: Devastating Critical (bite), Overwhelming Critical (bite)

to make the crush work, do we need to specify anything about how the jumping works, or can we just say "a jumping wyrm can..."

and most importantly, we need a CR.  

now, after all that, we might just be done.


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> do we need to list all of these? isn't there a better way to say it?
> SQ: Blindsense 60? ft, darkvision 60 ft, keen senses, low-light vision



Do it like the linnorms, and add just blindsense 60. ft. and keen senses to the SQ line.  Add this below:

Keen Senses (Ex): A great elder wyrm sees four times as well as a human in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision with a range of 120 feet.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how's this? (i had to switch awesome blow with weapon focus to qualify for some of those other feats):



Awesome Blow is still listed.  


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills: Appraise +24, Bluff +27, Climb +24, Decipher Script +21, Diplomacy +31, Disguise +7 (in character +9), Gather Information +29, Intimidate +32, Jump +39, Knowledge (any five) +30, Listen +26, Search +26, Sense Motive +26, Spot +26, Survival +5 (+7 following tracks), Swim +24, Use Magic Device +22 (+24 scrolls)
> Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (bite)
> Epic Feats: Devastating Critical (bite), Overwhelming Critical (bite)



I think these skills and feats represent its description well.  However, I'd max out jump at 35 ranks, which would give it a +49 modifier with its Str score.  That way it could jump 20 ft. high without rolling (assuming a 20 foot running start), allowing it to use its crush attack on Medium creatures and many Large creatures.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> to make the crush work, do we need to specify anything about how the jumping works, or can we just say "a jumping wyrm can..."



A jumping wyrm can is probably fine.   It basically just needs to get enough height to get over the crushee.  See my suggestions for Jump ranks above.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> and most importantly, we need a CR.



It's equal in HD to a very old gold dragon, which is CR 22.   Now, is it truly _equal_ to a very old gold dragon?   The great elder wyrm lacks flight, spells, and spell-like abilities.  His ability scores are comparable.   His breath weapon is a tad more deadly than the great wyrms, and he's got regeneration 5.   All in all, I'd say he's slightly weaker than the very old gold, so I'd go with CR 21.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> now, after all that, we might just be done.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Awesome Blow is still listed.




duhh... i actually switched it for one of the epic feats instead.



> I think these skills and feats represent its description well.  However, I'd max out jump at 35 ranks, which would give it a +49 modifier with its Str score.  That way it could jump 20 ft. high without rolling (assuming a 20 foot running start), allowing it to use its crush attack on Medium creatures and many Large creatures.




sounds fair.  just skim a little bit off the top of some of the other skills.  

also, another thing that needs work is the weak spot.  i'll give that some thought later today.


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

Cool.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2004)

i totally forgot i posted this thread and never remembered to go check it out again: http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=81411


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

It looks like Caliban's response was similar to my idea, so I like it.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2004)

how about this.  

Flavor text:
Every elder great wyrm has at least one vulnerable spot upon its body due to disease, combat, or the natural wear and tear that comes from great age.  If struck there, a wyrm will seek to immediately retreat to find safety and recover from the wound.  If a wyrm realizes that one of its weak spots has been recognized, it may sacrifice a claw attack to keep that spot covered.

Weak Spot (Ex): A confirmed critical hit with a slashing or piercing weapon allows a creature to take advantage of an elder wyrm’s weak spot (if it remains exposed), increasing the weapon’s damage multiplier by one step (for example, a longsword which has a multiplier of x2 would have a multiplier of x3 against an elder great wyrm’s weak spot).


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

I like it, but I'd limit it to a roll of natural 20 for the initial threat, similar to a vorpal weapon.  That keeps it down to a 5% chance, instead of a 30% chance for the guy with a keen scimitar.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2004)

updating... he done yet?


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

Beautiful...that creature is a work of art.   

I'd recommend adding "+1d6" after the x2 on the bite attack to remind folks of overwhelming critical (some of the ELH critters do this after revision).   

Although not necessary, it might be nice to list the save DC of Devastating Critical (in this case, DC 40).

Did we ever discuss giving him damage reduction?


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2004)

i don't beleive we did... what sort of DR do standard dragons have?


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## Krishnath (Mar 30, 2004)

Common dragons have DR as follows:

Young Adult: DR 5/magic
Mature Adult: DR 10/magic
Very Old: DR 15/magic
Wyrm: DR 20/magic.

I suggest going with DR 20/magic.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2004)

I agree.   I wanted to push for DR/epic, but the low-age category epic dragons still have DR/magic as well.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2004)

i'm liking DR 15/magic.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2004)

Really 5/magic would work, since DR/magic is pointless!  :\ 

I think its only there to prevent villagers from stabbing the mighty dragons.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2004)

I have to agree that DR X/magic is largely useless against high-level PCs, after all what PC above say 5th-level doesn’t have at least one magic weapon?  (one of my very few gripes about the new DR system)  on the other hand, I think DR/epic is too heavy handed for this monster, and I wouldn’t expect to see such a rating on very many non-unique monsters.

Any solutions to this here dilemma?


----------



## Shade (Mar 30, 2004)

No dilemma.  I'm in total agreement that DR/magic is appropriate.  I'm just overrall upset with DR/magic in 3.5, and I've always hated the lame-o DR they've given dragons in 3E.   These guys shouldn't be any better than the best of the great wyrms.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 30, 2004)

OK, updating - how's that?  done yet?


----------



## Shade (Mar 30, 2004)

I do declare we are a-finished.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2004)

awesome.    requests?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2004)

Too many to count...


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2004)

heh... i have a list at home, i'll go through that and pick one on my own.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

sticking with the same article, here is an interesting little troublemaker...

EKRAT
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 1 + 1
% IN LAIR: 90%
TREASURE TYPE: L, M, Qx3, plus magical writings (see below)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 weapon
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Consumes magical writing
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised only on roll of 1 on a d12
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
SIZE: S (1’ tail)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: II/44 + 2/hp

These wily beings are similar in appearance to leathery-skinned leprechauns, though they are thinner and have dull yellow eyes. Ekrats have exceptional hearing and are difficult to surprise. They usually carry a dagger with them for self-defense but are not known to waylay or harm anyone without cause.
Ekrats are most often found in the neighborhood of a poorly guarded library or museum, though a few enterprising specimens have made their ways into major magical libraries. Ekrats feed upon the magical power contained within enchanted writings of any sort. Ekrats also eat paper and drink ink, though no one has figured out how they can get nourishment from them. Any other vegetable matter can be consumed, such as corn, rice, wheat, or even grass and tree bark, but ekrats prefer paper products over all other foods.
The average ekrat will eat as much as 30 sheets of paper per day, preferably with ink writing upon them, if such can be found. Magical tomes, scrolls, spellbooks, and the like are consumed differently. Four times a day, an ekrat can cast a special form of erase spell with a range of 12”. This spell will affect one spell from a magical scroll, tome, or spell book, and has a 60% chance of successfully erasing the magical writings involved. The ekrat will continue to seek out as many other magical writings to “eat” as possible.
An ekrat may safely erase cursed scrolls, and a protection or cursed scroll counts as one “spell” for eating purposes. Magical glyphs, runes, and symbols may also be eaten in this manner, and the same applies to explosive runes (though these will immediately detonate if the attempt to eat them fails).
Even a powerful magical tome such as a libram of gainful conjuration or a vacuous grimoire can be so destroyed, though the ekrat must make four successful erase attacks in a row in order to destroy the work, and the book must fail a saving throw vs. disintegration each time (roll of 20 required not to fail). Little wonder, then, that ekrats are often referred to as “folio fiends” or “manual monsters.”
An ekrat will keep a lair and is very likely to be found there, casually stuffing itself with paper, drinking ink, or otherwise amusing itself when it isn’t hungry.
Though ekrats eat magical writings, they do keep other treasures, particularly gems and jewels. A chance exists of finding some magical writings being kept in an ekrat’s lair as late-night snacks. Roll the following chances for magical writings cumulatively: 50% chance of 1-4 scrolls, 50% chance of a map (with magical writings upon it), 20% chance of a spellbook, and a 5% chance of a magical tome or manual. A spellbook is 80% likely to have belonged to a magic-user (of level 1-8) and 20% to be that of an illusionist (of level 1 - 10).


some preliminary stats for an ekrat:

*Ekrat*
Tiny or Diminutive Fey
Hit Dice: 1d6+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+X size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: 
Full Attack: Dagger +X melee (X+X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: consume magical writing
Special Qualities: X
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X (bonus to Listen and Spot for surprise)
Feats: X

Environment: Temperate land?
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X


An ekrat is 1 foot tall, and weighs X pounds.

An ekrat speaks Sylvan


COMBAT


Originally found in Dragon Magazine #94 (“Creature Catalog II,” February 1986, Gregg Sharp).


----------



## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

I remember these little guys.   

Let's go with Tiny.  Here's the ability scores for the nearly-as-miniscule grig and the equally-smart nixie:

Grig:  Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14
Nixie:  Str 7, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 18

I'm thinking for the ekrat:

Str 4, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 16


----------



## BOZ (Apr 9, 2004)

Here is an updated stat block:

*Ekrat*
Tiny Fey
Hit Dice: 1d6 (3 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-11 
Attack: Dagger +6 melee (1d4-3/19-20/x2)
Full Attack: Dagger +6 melee (1d4-3/19-20/x2)
Space/Reach: 2 ½ ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: consume magical writing
Special Qualities: low-light vision (DR/cold iron?)
Saves: Fort +0 Ref +6 Will +3
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 16
Skills: 28? (bonus to Listen and Spot for surprise, +8 Hide for size)
Feats: Weapon Finesse

Environment: Temperate land?
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X

For treasure, they would have had L (2-12 ep), M (2-8 pp or gp), Qx3 (1-4 gems, tripled), plus magical writings (as described in the following text, modified as we see fit):
“A chance exists of finding some magical writings being kept in an ekrat’s lair as late-night snacks. Roll the following chances for magical writings cumulatively: 50% chance of 1-4 scrolls, 50% chance of a map (with magical writings upon it), 20% chance of a spellbook, and a 5% chance of a magical tome or manual. A spellbook is 80% likely to have belonged to a magic-user (of level 1-8) and 20% to be that of an illusionist (of level 1 - 10).”


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

Let's go with DR 5/cold iron.

Hmmm...for the treasure thing, perhaps we could say something like:

Treasure:   In addition to their standard treasure, a chance exists of finding some magical writings being kept in an ekrat’s lair as late-night snacks. Roll d% and consult the following table.

01-50   Mundane books and maps only
51-79   Scrolls (roll on table X in the Dungeon Master's Guide)
80-99   Spellbook  (consult following table)
00        Magical tome (consult following table)

For spellbooks, we could probably say (roll on scrolls table XdX times to determine the contents of the spellbook).

For the magical tome table, we could have the stat boost manuals (Tome of Understanding, etc.), Boccob's blessed book, and golem manuals.

The percentages could probably use some tweaking, I just wanted to brainstorm.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 13, 2004)

it shouldn't take too long to figure.  just some thought, and keepin it simple.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

let's not get too hung up on the treasure.  i'll post more about its powers later today.


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

as promised...

Here we go, not too much here:



> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised only on roll of 1 on a d12
> Ekrats have exceptional hearing and are difficult to surprise.




Listen bonus?  Hmmm, could be!



> Magical tomes, scrolls, spellbooks, and the like are consumed differently. Four times a day, an ekrat can cast a special form of erase spell with a range of 12”. This spell will affect one spell from a magical scroll, tome, or spell book, and has a 60% chance of successfully erasing the magical writings involved. The ekrat will continue to seek out as many other magical writings to “eat” as possible.
> An ekrat may safely erase cursed scrolls, and a protection or cursed scroll counts as one “spell” for eating purposes. Magical glyphs, runes, and symbols may also be eaten in this manner, and the same applies to explosive runes (though these will immediately detonate if the attempt to eat them fails).
> Even a powerful magical tome such as a libram of gainful conjuration or a vacuous grimoire can be so destroyed, though the ekrat must make four successful erase attacks in a row in order to destroy the work, and the book must fail a saving throw vs. disintegration each time (roll of 20 required not to fail).




Here’s the fun part.


----------



## Shade (Apr 20, 2004)

> Magical tomes, scrolls, spellbooks, and the like are consumed differently. Four times a day, an ekrat can cast a special form of erase spell with a range of 12”. This spell will affect one spell from a magical scroll, tome, or spell book, and has a 60% chance of successfully erasing the magical writings involved. The ekrat will continue to seek out as many other magical writings to “eat” as possible.
> An ekrat may safely erase cursed scrolls, and a protection or cursed scroll counts as one “spell” for eating purposes. Magical glyphs, runes, and symbols may also be eaten in this manner, and the same applies to explosive runes (though these will immediately detonate if the attempt to eat them fails).
> Even a powerful magical tome such as a libram of gainful conjuration or a vacuous grimoire can be so destroyed, though the ekrat must make four successful erase attacks in a row in order to destroy the work, and the book must fail a saving throw vs. disintegration each time (roll of 20 required not to fail).



Here's the erase spell for ease of reference:
Erase 
Transmutation
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One scroll or two pages
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

Erase removes writings of either magical or mundane nature from a scroll or from one or two pages of paper, parchment, or similar surfaces. With this spell, you can remove explosive runes, a glyph of warding, a sepia snake sigil, or an arcane mark, but not illusory script or a symbol spell. Nonmagical writing is automatically erased if you touch it and no one else is holding it. Otherwise, the chance of erasing nonmagical writing is 90%.

Magic writing must be touched to be erased, and you also must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against DC 15. (A natural 1 or 2 is always a failure on this check.) If you fail to erase explosive runes, a glyph of warding, or a sepia snake sigil, you accidentally activate that writing instead.


It looks like we can just say "as the erase spell", with a few exceptions.  Since 12" converts to 30 feet, I'd say we have our range.  We'll need to give it a caster level that would equate to about 60% success rate.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 20, 2004)

And here is the 1E version, off of which the ekrat’s powers would have been based:

Erase (Alteration)
Level: 1 
Range: 3"
Duration: Permanent 
Area of Effect: One scroll or two facing pages
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 segment
Saving Throw: Neg.

Explanation/Description: The erase spell removes writings of either magical or mundane nature from a scroll or one or two pages or sheets of paper, parchment or similar surfaces. It will not remove explosive runes or a symbol (see these spells hereafter), however. There is a basic chance of 50%, plus 2% per level of experience of the spell caster with respect to magical writings, plus 4% per level for mundane writing, that the spell will take effect. This represents the saving throw, and any percentile dice score in excess of the adjusted percentage chance means the spell fails.

The main difference I see is that the 1E spell could not erase “explosive runes, a glyph of warding, a sepia snake sigil, or an arcane mark”, but the 3E spell can, so about the only addition that I would note is that the power also affects symbol spells. (that, and of course, how the saving throws are handled).  The tricky part will be how it affects those special tomes and manuals.

We can extrapolate a bit on caster level:  the chance of success for an ekrat is listed as 60%, and the spell is listed as 50% plus 2% per level, which comes out to 10th-level. We can raise it from there, but personally I wouldn’t lower it.  

Now, if you wanted to pick a 60% chance on a d20 that would be a 12 or lower.  If you take 50% on a d20 as 10, assume that you need a 5th-level caster to get a result of 15 (success) 50% of the time.  So therefore, you would need a 7th-level caster to get a 60% chance of success against DC 15.  does that make sense?  

Here is my first attempt:

Consume Magical Writing (Su): An ekrat has the ability to ingest the energy of magical writing into its body for nourishment.  To accomplish this, it can use erase, as the spell (Caster level Xth), 4 times per day.  This power can also affect symbol spells (such as symbol of death, etc.) in the same manner, with a failure indicating that the symbol is activated instead.

To destroy a manual…


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## Shade (Apr 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> We can extrapolate a bit on caster level: the chance of success for an ekrat is listed as 60%, and the spell is listed as 50% plus 2% per level, which comes out to 10th-level. We can raise it from there, but personally I wouldn’t lower it.
> 
> Now, if you wanted to pick a 60% chance on a d20 that would be a 12 or lower. If you take 50% on a d20 as 10, assume that you need a 5th-level caster to get a result of 15 (success) 50% of the time. So therefore, you would need a 7th-level caster to get a 60% chance of success against DC 15. does that make sense?



That makes perfect sense.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Consume Magical Writing (Su): An ekrat has the ability to ingest the energy of magical writing into its body for nourishment. To accomplish this, it can use erase, as the spell (Caster level Xth), 4 times per day. This power can also affect symbol spells (such as symbol of death, etc.) in the same manner, with a failure indicating that the symbol is activated instead.



Looking good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> To destroy a manual…



Here's a brainstorm.  I'm sure it'll need work...

To destroy a magical tome (such as a _manual of bodily health_), an ekrat must succeed at caster level checks in four consecutive rounds.   Each round that the check succeeds, the tome must make a Fortitude save (DC X).  If the ekrat fails on a caster level check or if the tome makes a successful saving throw, then the consume attempt fails.   The ekrat may retry the next round.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 21, 2004)

Ok then, since it does make sense, which sounds better?  10th to match the original save, or 7th to match the 60%?  

Consume Magical Writing (Su): An ekrat has the ability to ingest the energy of magical writing into its body for nourishment. To accomplish this, it can use erase, as the spell (Caster level Xth), 4 times per day. This power can also affect symbol spells (such as symbol of death, etc.) in the same manner, with a failure indicating that the symbol is activated instead. 

An ekrat can also use this power to consume a magical book (such as a manual of bodily health, a tome of clear thought, or even a vacuous grimoire, but not an artifact). An ekrat must succeed at caster level checks in four consecutive rounds to destroy such a work. Each round that the check succeeds, the book must make a Fortitude save (DC X). If the ekrat fails on a caster level check or if the tome makes a successful saving throw, then the consume attempt fails. The ekrat may retry the next round, (and this attempt does not count against the ekrat’s usages per day?).


----------



## Shade (Apr 21, 2004)

I like 7th/60%.

Shouldn't it count against its uses per day?  It did try, afterall, but failed.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 22, 2004)

that's why i put it in parenthesis.  i thought about just adding it, then i thought again.  

what should the fort save DC be for the books?


----------



## Shade (Apr 22, 2004)

10 + half its HD + its Cha modifier?   (Would that be 13 or 14, rounding 1/2 of 1 HD to 1 or 0?)


----------



## BOZ (Apr 22, 2004)

The HD modifier is probably going to be 0, since we round down, making the DC 13.  Ability Focus should help make this ability more effective.

Note that a small viper has 1-HD, a Con of 11, and its poison save is DC 10.


----------



## Shade (Apr 22, 2004)

Cool.  Thanks for the explanation!


----------



## BOZ (Apr 24, 2004)

posting


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2004)

A grig is one and 1/2 feet tall and weighs 1 pound.  I'd go with 1 pound for these guys, because I don't think we want to go into fractional pounds, do we?   

I'd suggest a +8 racial bonus on Listen checks.  

I like how the grig's language line reads:  "Grigs speak Sylvan. Some also speak Common."  I think that would work for ekrat as well.

CR 1/2?  Their abilities don't actually threaten characters, just their stuff.

Treasure:  See text (????)

LA +1?  (considering damage reduction and erase ability).


----------



## Filby (Apr 26, 2004)

Considering that ekrats live in libraries I think that they might all speak Common. Possibly Draconic, too, since they eat spellbooks.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 26, 2004)

Shade, I agree that we don’t need to go less than a pound, since the difference there is small – I’d say that the ekrat is a bit “chunkier” than a slim grig anyway.  Page 314 in the MM shows that creatures smaller than Tiny will often be less than a pound though.

Filby, they don’t necessarily need to be able to read the language in a book to be able to read the magic therein.    not that those are bad ideas…

Which gives me an idea… should they have an innate ability to recognize magical writing for what it is, or is that just something that is understood?  Should they have detect magic and read magic or is that superfluous?


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Which gives me an idea… should they have an innate ability to recognize magical writing for what it is, or is that just something that is understood? Should they have detect magic and read magic or is that superfluous?



I was thinking the same thing, and don't really know.  I'd err on the side of caution and give them a continuous detect magic, at least.   We could even limit it to magical writings only, if necessary.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 26, 2004)

a limitation might not be necessary if detect magic identifies the type of magic involved?


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2004)

It will detect schools of magic, though I doubt the ekrat cares.   I suggested the limitation in case you didn't want them knowing whether a sword, for example, was magic.   Personally, I don't see it as a problem.   

A continuous, or "at will", spell-like ability would raise the LA by +1 more, though.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 27, 2004)

Giving it a continuous detect magic with no limitations doesn’t scare me at all.    or perhaps arcane sight like we did with the feystag.  And what about read magic?


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2004)

Yeah, arcane sight may make more sense.  As for read magic, does the ekrat actually care about what's in the tome, or only whether its "edible"?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 27, 2004)

good point.  have you even seen "city of lost children"?  if so, i picture the ekrat as that little kid who doesn't stop eating through the whole movie.


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2004)

I haven't see it, but it sounds intriguing.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 27, 2004)

Arcane Sight (Sp): An ekrat is under the effect of a continuous arcane sight effect, as the spell (caster level Xth).

borrowed from the feystag, trimmed down a bit because the ekrat does not specialize in magic items (because it can eat glyphs, runes, symbols, and similar spells).


----------



## Shade (Apr 28, 2004)

That'll work.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 28, 2004)

Updating…


----------



## Shade (Apr 28, 2004)

Suggested skill ranks:  Escape Artist 4, Hide 4, Move Silently 4, Open Lock 4, Search 4, Spellcraft 4, Tumble 4.

I figured Open Lock would help 'em break into libraries.   

Let's give 'em Ability Focus, and make Weapon Finesse a bonus feat.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 28, 2004)

updating... this one's just about done too.


----------



## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

Environment:  Temperate land works fine.

Treasure line looks fine.

Advancement:  2-4 HD (Tiny)

Caster level for arcane sight = 6th? (the minimum level for a sorcerer to cast it).

Now we just need to finish treasure in the text.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)

I figured this line covered that, more or less: “A quick perusal of an ekrat’s lair may turn up any number of scrolls, maps with magical writings, spellbooks, and more unique types of magical tomes or manuals.”


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

I guess it would.      Leave it up to the DM, rather than random chance, to determine if that tome of understanding +3 is in the lair of a 1 HD fey.  I like it.


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## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)

yap.


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## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)

OK, updating for another look, but i think this fella is done.


----------



## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

I think he's done.  

If you're taking requests, I'd like to see the avari from Dragon 101 (Creature Catalog III).


----------



## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)

OK, i'll have a look at that one.


----------



## Filby (Apr 29, 2004)

By the way, did you by any chance post a list of monsters from the first Creature Catalog? It's not on the master list.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)

Whoopsie!  Consider it fixed on the first page of this thread at least.


----------



## Filby (Apr 30, 2004)

Ahh, thanks! I'd been wondering what sorts of critters were hanging around in there. (Explodestool, hm...)


----------



## Shade (May 6, 2004)

Any thoughts yet on the avari?   I'd be willing to type 'em up if ya need me to.


----------



## BOZ (May 7, 2004)

combination busy/lazy/forgetful as usual.    i will get to them sooner or later.  maybe tonight... maybe not.


----------



## BOZ (May 10, 2004)

no need to worry, here they are.  

AVARI
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVE: 9”/15" (MC: C)
HIT DICE: 9 + 3
% IN LAIR: 15 %
TREASURE TYPE: C
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 7-l2/7-12/7-18
SPECIAL ATTACKS: poisonous bite, screech, surprise on 1-5
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Various immunities and resistances, rarely surprised
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 35%
INTELLIGENCE: Very to high
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: IX/5700 + 14/hp

Avari are batlike humanoids native to the Middle Lower Planes, where they are the unfortunate rivals of daemonkind for territory. There they dwell in dank caverns filled with bats, and are usually encountered in similar surroundings on the Prime Material Plane.

Avari love the taste of human flesh, and their saliva contains a powerful poison that affects the victim’s nervous system; anyone bitten by an Avari must save vs. paralyzation or writhe in agony for 4-16 rounds, with the same effect as a symbol of pain. An avari may also screech like a mobat (6" radius), but may not bite in the same round.

Avari telepathically command all bats and can summon 1-4 mobats up to three times per day. They are unaffected by non-magical weapons, paralysis, poisons, and acid attack forms, take half damage from cold, electricity, and magic missiles, but take full damage from fire.

Avari long ago dwelt in a central community, but their wars against daemonkind shattered their unity and forced them to exist as isolated clans in the most desolate reaches of their planes. They do not deserve pity, for the avari are among the cruelest races of the Lower Planes, and love torture for its own sake.

In the few places where avari flourish, they have set up a feudal system using slaves to satisfy their whims; as they often feed upon these serfs, the efficiency of this system is questionable. They have been known to negotiate with humans, particularly for gold (which avari crave), and will manipulate adventurers into attacking their enemies. They will usually try to eat anyone who appears incapable of resistance. Avari occasionally come to the Prime Material Plane via gates cast by other individuals, and certain forms of magic have proven successful in summoning them, through the use of the personal names which all avari possess.

Due to their acute sonar senses, avari surprise opponents on a 1-5 on a d6, and are surprised only on a 1. They see into the ultraviolet and infrared spectrums, and telepathically communicate with all creatures of low intelligence or better. They have huge leathery wings and are brown-green in color.


some preliminary stats for an avari:

*Avari*
Medium Outsider? (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 9d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares), fly 40 ft (average)
Armor Class: 24 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (1d6+X) and bite +X melee (1d12+X plus poison)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: poison, screech, summon mobats
Special Qualities: command bats, damage reduction X/magic, darkvision 60 ft, immunity to acid, paralysis, and poison, resistance to cold X and electricity X, (resistance to magic missiles/force effects), spell resistance X, telepathy 100 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str 22? (if Str is 22, then above damage ranges make sense), Dex X, Con X, Int 13, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 108 (Listen & Move Silently bonus)
Feats: 4

Environment: Gehenna?  Grey Waste?
Organization: 1-4
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X

An avari is 6 feet tall, and weighs X pounds.

An avari speaks (Abyssal, Infernal?).

COMBAT

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #101 ("Creature Catalog III," September 1985, Scott Bennie).


----------



## Shade (May 10, 2004)

Sweet.  Thanks!

Definitely Outsider.   We already have a batlike extraplanar magical beast (the varrangoin).

I'd prefer to go with the Grey Wastes of Hades, since they "long ago dwelt in a central community, but their wars against daemonkind shattered their unity and forced them to exist as isolated clans in the most desolate reaches of their planes", possibly before the yugoloths moved to Gehenna.   Also, the gloom seems to suit them.     We can leave in flavor text that they inhabit most of the Lower Planes, though.

Per the conversion guidelines, they should have spell resistance 18.

Since it looks like their damage bonus is +6, shall we give 'em a Strength score of 22-23?  Dex 16+?  Con 13-17?  Wis 15?  Cha 16?


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## Shade (May 12, 2004)

Attempting to break down some of the abilities...



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Avari love the taste of human flesh, and their saliva contains a powerful poison that affects the victim’s nervous system; anyone bitten by an Avari must save vs. paralyzation or writhe in agony for 4-16 rounds, with the same effect as a symbol of pain. An avari may also screech like a mobat (6" radius), but may not bite in the same round.



*Poison (Ex):* Injury, Fortitude DC X, initial damage wracking pains that impose a –4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks for 4d4 rounds, secondary damage none. The save DC is Constitution-based.  

*Sonic Screech (Su):* An avari can screech once per round affecting all those within a 60-foot radius that fail a Will save (DC X). On a failed save, the victim is stunned for 1d3 rounds. This is a sonic, mind-affecting attack.  The save DC is Constitution-based.  Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same avari's sonic screech for 24 hours.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Avari telepathically command all bats and can summon 1-4 mobats up to three times per day.



_*Summon Mobats (Sp):*_ Three times per day, an avari can automatically summon 1d4 mobats. This ability is the equivalent of a Xth-level spell.

Perhaps we could also let them summon regular bats, dire bats, and/or bat swarms?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Due to their acute sonar senses, avari surprise opponents on a 1-5 on a d6, and are surprised only on a 1.



Improved Initiative and Alertness (as feats or bonus feats), racial bonus to Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen?


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## Shade (May 26, 2004)

Some random thoughts on these guys:

Damage reduction: 10/silver (for some reason, this just seems more appropriate)

Resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10

For the resistance to magic missiles/force effects, how about:

*Force Resistance (Ex):* Avari gain a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against force-based spells and effects.  If an effect does not allow a saving throw, but deals damage (such as _magic missle_), the avari instead takes only half damage from the effect.

I borrowed the first part from the Tarterian dragon.

Spell resistance 11 + CR (once that's determined). 

Suggested Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Hide, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot

Suggested Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative

Organization: Solitary, squad (2-4), or colony (5-20 plus slaves)

Advancement: 10-18 HD (Medium); 19-27 HD (Large)

An avari is 6 feet tall, and weighs 150 pounds.

An avari speaks Abyssal, Infernal and Undercommon.

_The creature appears to be a man-sized bat.  It has huge leathery wings and its fur is brownish-green.  Saliva drips from its fanged mouth, and its eyes burn with hatred and cunning._


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## BOZ (Aug 5, 2004)

Looks like I forgot to mention it before, but here is how I set the ability scores:
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 16

First part first:



> Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC X, initial damage wracking pains that impose a –4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks for 4d4 rounds, secondary damage none. The save DC is Constitution-based.




why not just say “affected as by symbol of pain”?    I like the idea of having a secondary effect.  We can make that some minor Str/Dex/ and/or Con damage, or sunning or temporary paralysis or something, or we can split up the pain duration (2d4 and 2d4, or 1d4 and 3d4, etc).  agree or disagree?  



> Sonic Screech (Su): An avari can screech once per round affecting all those within a 60-foot radius that fail a Will save (DC X). On a failed save, the victim is stunned for 1d3 rounds. This is a sonic, mind-affecting attack. The save DC is Constitution-based. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same avari's sonic screech for 24 hours.




don’t really need “sonic” in the title – although since they are bats, maybe supersonic or subsonic (not sure which one is which)?  Did you get this writeup from the ToH mobat or from somewhere else?  Should we add that they cannot bite and screech in the same round or is that assumed?



> Summon Mobats (Sp): Three times per day, an avari can automatically summon 1d4 mobats. This ability is the equivalent of a Xth-level spell.
> 
> Perhaps we could also let them summon regular bats, dire bats, and/or bat swarms?




maybe… nowadays is it not “summon” for extraplanar creatures and “call” for creatures on the same plane?  And you didn’t write anything for “Avari telepathically command all bats” 



> Improved Initiative and Alertness (as feats or bonus feats), racial bonus to Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen?




definitely some of that, at least.  I was thinking sonar would help them more with Listen and Move Silently than anything else, so definite bonuses there.  Alertness and Stealthy would also be advisable. 


Second part second:


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Damage reduction: 10/silver (for some reason, this just seems more appropriate)




sure, DR/magic is boring now.    but, with “They are unaffected by non-magical weapons” should that be “magic and silver” or “magic or silver” or would you figure the silver alone is enough?  



> Resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10




is that the value you’d expect to see on a 9-HD outsider?



> For the resistance to magic missiles/force effects, how about:
> 
> Force Resistance (Ex): Avari gain a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against force-based spells and effects. If an effect does not allow a saving throw, but deals damage (such as magic missle), the avari instead takes only half damage from the effect.
> 
> I borrowed the first part from the Tarterian dragon.




where is the Tarterian dragon – Draconomicon?  Otherwise, looks just fine to me.    instead of “force-based spells” should that be “spells with the force descriptor”?



> Spell resistance 11 + CR (once that's determined).
> 
> Suggested Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Hide, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot
> 
> Suggested Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative




I’ll take all of that into consideration.  



> Organization: Solitary, squad (2-4), or colony (5-20 plus slaves)




“There they dwell in dank caverns filled with bats, and are usually encountered in similar surroundings on the Prime Material Plane.”  



> Advancement: 10-18 HD (Medium); 19-27 HD (Large)
> 
> An avari is 6 feet tall, and weighs 150 pounds.
> 
> An avari speaks Abyssal, Infernal and Undercommon.




that all works, as-is.  



> The creature appears to be a man-sized bat. It has huge leathery wings and its fur is brownish-green. Saliva drips from its fanged mouth, and its eyes burn with hatred and cunning.






also, I’ll point this out:



			
				Dragon #101 said:
			
		

> Avari occasionally come to the Prime Material Plane via gates cast by other individuals, and certain forms of magic have proven successful in summoning them, through the use of the personal names which all avari possess.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2004)

Woo-hoo!  Back to the avari conversion.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Looks like I forgot to mention it before, but here is how I set the ability scores:
> Abilities: Str 22, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 16



Great.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> why not just say “affected as by symbol of pain”?  I like the idea of having a secondary effect. We can make that some minor Str/Dex/ and/or Con damage, or sunning or temporary paralysis or something, or we can split up the pain duration (2d4 and 2d4, or 1d4 and 3d4, etc). agree or disagree?



Because I hate having to look up a spell to find out what a monster's ability does.   

Seriously, though, I've noticed more and more newer creatures reprinting the relative text when an ability mimics part of a spell.

I kinda like the temporary paralysis option.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> don’t really need “sonic” in the title – although since they are bats, maybe supersonic or subsonic (not sure which one is which)? Did you get this writeup from the ToH mobat or from somewhere else? Should we add that they cannot bite and screech in the same round or is that assumed?



True.  It's been awhile since I wrote that  , but I believe I took it from the CC mobat.   I like "supersonic" in this instance.  By default, they shouldn't be able to bite and screech in the same round, as both would be standard actions, right?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> maybe… nowadays is it not “summon” for extraplanar creatures and “call” for creatures on the same plane? And you didn’t write anything for “Avari telepathically command all bats”



Is it that way?  I was just going by _summon_ monster and _summon_ nature's ally.  Good catch on the telepathic command.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> definitely some of that, at least. I was thinking sonar would help them more with Listen and Move Silently than anything else, so definite bonuses there. Alertness and Stealthy would also be advisable.



Agreed.  I could see dumping the Spot bonus, though, as bats don't usually have very keen eyesight.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sure, DR/magic is boring now.  but, with “They are unaffected by non-magical weapons” should that be “magic and silver” or “magic or silver” or would you figure the silver alone is enough?



Silver alone.  The varrangoins have dr/cold iron, so I figured we could be similar, but not too similar, to the other fiendish bat-folk.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> is that the value you’d expect to see on a 9-HD outsider?



Resistance doesn't seem limited by HD anymore.  Check out the baatezu and tanar'ri...all have the same values.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> where is the Tarterian dragon – Draconomicon? Otherwise, looks just fine to me.  instead of “force-based spells” should that be “spells with the force descriptor”?



Yes to Draconomicon, and I agree with the "force descriptor" bit being better.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “There they dwell in dank caverns filled with bats, and are usually encountered in similar surroundings on the Prime Material Plane.”



So I think you are trying to tell me to add some bats to the organization line, right?   

How about adding "and 5-8 dire bats and/or 11-20 bat swarms"?



			
				[b said:
			
		

> Dragon #101][/b]Avari occasionally come to the Prime Material Plane via gates cast by other individuals, and certain forms of magic have proven successful in summoning them, through the use of the personal names which all avari possess.



Should we figure out a summon monster spell appropriate for them, or mention that they are often brought to the Material Plane via planar ally spells?


----------



## thom99 (Aug 6, 2004)

Hey guys!  just checkin in  

In keeping with the "Issue 101" theme, could we do the orpsu after the avari is finished?  I *know* that seems like a lot to ask

I shocked some of my old-timers with a surprise vampiric mist *and* a whipsting all in 1 night!!    So I ran across this thread and saw the orpsu on it - they're another one of my favorite "weird critters"!  

Sorry for the interuption Shade!

thomas


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## BOZ (Aug 6, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Because I hate having to look up a spell to find out what a monster's ability does.
> 
> Seriously, though, I've noticed more and more newer creatures reprinting the relative text when an ability mimics part of a spell.
> 
> I kinda like the temporary paralysis option.




OK, I’ll keep it the way you wrote it then.    how long should paralysis last – 2d4 rounds good enough?



> True. It's been awhile since I wrote that, but I believe I took it from the CC mobat. I like "supersonic" in this instance. By default, they shouldn't be able to bite and screech in the same round, as both would be standard actions, right?




I don’t know – is that the case?



> Is it that way? I was just going by summon monster and summon nature's ally.




no, it isn’t that way, and you’re right.    summon it is!



> Good catch on the telepathic command.




think that should mimic a druid/ranger type ability, or be a totally different Su ability?



> Agreed. I could see dumping the Spot bonus, though, as bats don't usually have very keen eyesight.




true, so I’d say no Spot bonus, but “They see into the ultraviolet and infrared spectrums” so we’d need something to replace the old infravision and ultravision with, so they are indeed not blind (or… are they?)



> Silver alone. The varrangoins have dr/cold iron, so I figured we could be similar, but not too similar, to the other fiendish bat-folk.




LOL, ok suit yourself but I think I like “magic or silver” better.



> So I think you are trying to tell me to add some bats to the organization line, right?
> 
> How about adding "and 5-8 dire bats and/or 11-20 bat swarms"?




not-so-subtle hint?  



> Should we figure out a summon monster spell appropriate for them, or mention that they are often brought to the Material Plane via planar ally spells?




another not-so-subtle hint?    I don’t know, what’s the difference between the spell sets? 


And thom, for orpsu, definitely a possibility… IIRC was also reused a few times in FR products later.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, I’ll keep it the way you wrote it then.  how long should paralysis last – 2d4 rounds good enough?



Yeah, I think that should be enough. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I don’t know – is that the case?



Yep.  From the Monster Types & Abilities File:  "Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise." 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> no, it isn’t that way, and you’re right.  summon it is!



 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> think that should mimic a druid/ranger type ability, or be a totally different Su ability?



How about we borrow this from lycanthropes...

Bat Empathy (Ex): Avari can communicate and empathize with normal or dire bats. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."

We could also add "and other batlike creatures" to the end of the first sentence.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> true, so I’d say no Spot bonus, but “They see into the ultraviolet and infrared spectrums” so we’d need something to replace the old infravision and ultravision with, so they are indeed not blind (or… are they?)



Well, since infravision was transformed into low-light vision and darkvision, we should probably stick with the outsider standard of darkvision. 

And probably modify this...

Blindsense (Ex): A dire bat uses echolocation to pinpoint creatures within 40 feet. Opponents still have total concealment against the bat unless it can actually see them.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> LOL, ok suit yourself but I think I like “magic or silver” better.



I'll take "magic _and_ silver", but "magic or silver" is too easy for a 9-HD outsider.   (I checked comparable critters, and most have /good or /cold iron or /silver). 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> not-so-subtle hint?



Indeed.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> another not-so-subtle hint?  I don’t know, what’s the difference between the spell sets?



Summon - fights for caster for 1 round/level.
Planar ally spells - makes a deal with outsider to perform some task. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And thom, for orpsu, definitely a possibility… IIRC was also reused a few times in FR products later.



Fine with me.  I like all the monsters from the ol' Creature Catalogs.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 6, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Summon - fights for caster for 1 round/level.
> Planar ally spells - makes a deal with outsider to perform some task.




My question though, was can you take more than one standard action in the same round.  



> How about we borrow this from lycanthropes...
> 
> Bat Empathy (Ex): Avari can communicate and empathize with normal or dire bats. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."
> 
> We could also add "and other batlike creatures" to the end of the first sentence.




purrrrfect.  



> Summon - fights for caster for 1 round/level.
> Planar ally spells - makes a deal with outsider to perform some task.




hmm, tough choice, but I guess I would go with the latter – just to be evil.


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> My question though, was can you take more than one standard action in the same round.



Gotcha.  And the answer is...no. 

"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, tough choice, but I guess I would go with the latter – just to be evil.



I like your style.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 7, 2004)

I guess that takes care of that then.  

So how would we implement the planar ally thing?

also, posting in homebrews for a looksee (once we finish the mortai and avari we have 10 for posting - right in time to get some new ones up before gencon!  )


----------



## Shade (Aug 9, 2004)

How about..."Evil clerics often call an avari to the material plane using a _planar ally _spell, usually offering gold in exchange for the avari's services as a guardian or torturer."

The description is a bit light.  Can we add some of this back in?


> Avari are batlike humanoids native to the Middle Lower Planes, where they are the unfortunate rivals of daemonkind for territory. There they dwell in dank caverns filled with bats, and are usually encountered in similar surroundings on the Prime Material Plane.
> 
> Avari love the taste of human flesh.
> 
> ...



Since a dire bat is equal to summon nature's ally II, and the mobats aren't much better, I'd say that their summon monbat ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell (since they get 1d4).

Blindsense 60 ft.?

Racial skill bonuses of +4?

CR 8?  (They aren't quite as good as a vrock at 9).

Level Adjustment +9:
+1 for unbalanced ability scores
+2 for natural armor of that amount
+1 for flight
+1 for poison
+1 for spell resistance
+3 for resistances and immunities


----------



## BOZ (Aug 9, 2004)

I hadn’t written most of the flavor text yet.    of course, I think I meant to do so over the weekend…

Anyway, here you go:

The avari are a race of humanoid creatures that live in the Lower Planes, and are the chief rivals of yugoloths for territory.  Unfortunately, they are neither as powerful or as numerous as the fiends and have lost much over time.  Long ago, avari dwelt in a large central community, but their many wars shattered their unity, forcing them to live in isolated clan in desolate areas of the planes.  They dwell there in dank caverns filled with bats, and inhabit similar environs when found on the Material plane.

The avari are renowned for their cruelty, and have a great love of torture and causing pain.  They crave gold, and love the taste of human flesh, and will negotiate with humans to gain either.  Evil clerics often call an avari to the Material plane using a planar ally spell, usually offering gold in exchange for the avari's services as a guardian or torturer.

In the few places where avari have been able to thrive they have established a feudal system, using slaves and serfs to satisfied their every whim.  It is surprising how such a system can be maintained when the avari dine on their servants so frequently.

COMBAT
Avari will normally begin combat by screeching, then move in to attack.  They will target humans first, hoping to save them for later meals.


----------



## Shade (Aug 9, 2004)

Looks great!


----------



## BOZ (Aug 9, 2004)

Ok, updating.


----------



## Shade (Aug 9, 2004)

Looks good.  Is that a wrap?


----------



## BOZ (Aug 9, 2004)

i think so.


----------



## thom99 (Aug 10, 2004)

So can we do the orpsu next? (please, please, beg & grovel)   

thomas


----------



## BOZ (Aug 10, 2004)

no problem.    just give me a few days to get it together...


----------



## BOZ (Aug 12, 2004)

and here it is! 

From Dragon 101:

ORPSU
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 4- 12 (usually 6 or 7)
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: /12” (MC: D)
HIT DICE: 1 + 6
% IN LAIR: 15%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 horn and 1 fang slash
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-7/1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spell use, bleeding wounds, blood drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell and psionic immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT Neutral evil
SIZE: S (up to 2’ “hornspan,” 3’ overall length)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: See below
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: III / 52 +2/hp

Orpsu (singular and plural forms are the same) are predators found in temperate wastelands. They are nocturnal creatures which inhabit rocky places (such as caverns or ruins) and tall trees, and hunt in open, rolling country (scrubland or plains). They prey upon sheep, cattle!, woodland creatures of all types (having a particular fondness for badgers, foxes, and otters), large birds, and men.
They have ultravision out to a 20” range and infravision to 15“, both of which are useful in their nighttime hunting. Their greatest threat to prey is the ability of each orpsu to use, once per day, a weak form of hold monster (as the 5th-level magic-user spell, against any single living target within 6“; target saves at +2, success indicating the target is affected as if by a slow spell). This hold effect (or slow, if save is made) lasts for 2-5 rounds, and is the means by which orpsu catch and overcome most of their prey.
The coloration of orpsu ranges from crimson through mauve. They are hairless and have mottled, veined, leathery skin, a prehensile tail (too weak to hold struggling prey or wield any sort of weapon, but able to drag small objects or coil around a tree limb when the creature is at rest), and four unusual “horns.” These razor-sharp, blade-like bony appendages project out of an orpsu’s body like two back-to-back pairs of crescents, one pair curling forward on either side of its raking fangs and the other pointing backward like wings on either side of its tail. (The orpsu has a row of 4 or more fangs, pointing downward, but no lower jaw, and thus it cannot attack by biting in the normal fashion.)
Orpsu can fly by some form of natural levitation combined with propulsion provided by the flailing of their tails. However, they are relatively slow and clumsy in the air, and generally only try to swoop down on prey after it has been held or slowed. A slash or stab from an orpsu horn does 4-7 hp damage, and its fangs can inflict an additional 1-3 hp damage. (Separate “to hit” rolls are required for horns and fangs; a swooping orpsu may not strike a victim with more than one of its horns on a single attack.) Any wound inflicted by an orpsu horn will continue to bleed (the victim losing 1 hp per round thereafter) until the wound is bound or some form of curative magic is applied.
Orpsu feed upon the blood of mammals, drawing it through a cluster of white, flexible, tubelike tentacles located on the underside of the creature. Unlike the more common stirge, the orpsu (which is sometimes mistakenly called a “night stirge” because of its diet; the two creatures are not related) has no barbs or claws with which to grip a victim securely. Orpsu will not attempt to drain blood unless a victim is held or until it collapses from wounds and blood loss. Its tentacles can penetrate a victim’s skin and provide some holding power, and the orpsu can also affix itself to a victim by coiling its tail around the body or an extremity of the prey. (The creatures have no legs or feet, and cannot move across solid surfaces.)
The blood drain of an orpsu will sap 1-2 hp per round from a victim until the victim dies or the orpsu is knocked or rubbed off—not difficult to do but requiring conscious effort (and the ability to move) on the part of the victim.
Orpsu can communicate only with others of their kind, employing a sort of limited telepathy (2" range) which is incomprehensible and confusing to others who may try to “overhear.” The creatures are immune to charm, suggestion, domination, and hold magic, and psionic powers of similar nature, but otherwise have standard magic resistance.


From FR 13 Anauroch and MC11 (both were identical as far as I could tell): 

Orpsu
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate/any dry
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Hunting swarms
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Nocturnal (subterranean: any)
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 4-12 (usually 6 or 7)

ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 2, Fl 14 (D)
HIT DICE: 1+6
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-7/1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (up to 2' “hornspan,” 3' length)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 420

Orpsu, also known as “night stirges,” are flying predators who feed on fresh blood. They are unrelated to the more common stirge, and do not grip victims to feed. An orpsu is a hairless, rat-tailed flying beast equipped with raking fangs and four bony, wing-like projecting “horns.” Orpsu are mottled crimson, purple, mauve, or cinnamon-brown in hue, and have veined, leathery skin.
Orpsu are common in Kara-Tur and the steppes, plains, and deserts that lie west of the Eastern Realms.

Combat: Orpsu have 150’ infravision, and hunt in darkness to avoid attacks from larger predators when flying in the open. Once per day, an orpsu can use a weak form of hold monster (as the fifth-level wizard spell, except that only a single living being within 60’ can be attacked). If the target successfully saves (at +2) against this power, it is affected as if by a slow spell. Orpsu catch and overcome most of their prey by this means. They are relatively clumsy in flight, and usually swoop down on prey only after it has been held or slowed.
Orpsu have stout, razor-sharp fangs, but no lower jaws, and cannot bite, using their fangs instead to slash or rake. Orpsu also have prehensile tails, too weak to hold struggling prey or a weapon, but able to drag small objects or coil around a tree limb when the creature is at rest. Orpsu have no legs or feet, and can only move on the ground by clumsily undulating their bodies. 
The most distinctive features of an orpsu are its razor-sharp, blade-like bone “horns,” which project out of its body like two back-to-back crescents, the ends of one pair of horns curling forward on either side of the raking fangs, and the other two projecting backwards like wings on either side of the tail. An orpsu is at a disadvantage if knocked out of the air, and therefore instinctively swoops down to strike targets at an angle, as it passes - so only one side of its body menaces prey, and only one horn (either the front horn - or, if it misses, the angled, dragging rear horn) can strike an intended target per swoop (in addition to the orpsu’s fangs). A horn attack does 1d4 + 3 damage.
Any wound caused by one continues to bleed (the victim losing 1 hp/round thereafter) until the wound is bound up (and the victim refrains from combat or other strenuous activity for at least 1 turn), or curative magic is applied.
Orpsu only attempt to drain blood from victims who are held, asleep, or who have collapsed. Up to a dozen soft, flexible white tentacles emerge from slits in an orpsu’s belly (into which they retract when not needed). Orpsu have no barbs or claws to grip victims, and instead glide down to a flapping halt above chosen prey, onto which they settle heavily. The tentacles penetrate the victim’s skin, providing some holding power, and the orpsu usually wraps its tail around the victim’s body, limb or extremity. On the round after settling, the orpsu’s blood drain begins. It takes 1-2 hit points of blood per round, until the victim dies or the orpsu is knocked off (this is not difficult if the victim is conscious and able to move). A physical attack by another being usually causes a draining orpsu to bound into the air with a powerful coiling and whipping of its tail, and fly away. Orpsu have no known blood-satiation point. They remain alert when draining, and will abandon a victim rather than face certain death by remaining.
Orpsu fly by natural levitation, propelling themselves forward by flailing and wriggling their tails, and steering by angling the membrane “wings” of their horns as they tilt their bodies.

Habitat/Society: Orpsu lair in rocky places, such as caverns or ruins, and hunt in open, rolling scrubland or plains - or dwell and hunt entirely beneath the surface, in the endless caverns of the Underdark. 
Orpsu emit no calls or noises, and can communicate only with others of their kind, employing a limited, 20’-range telepathy that is incomprehensible to other beings employing magic or natural powers to mentally eavesdrop. Their peculiar mental activity renders them immune to charm, suggestion, domination, and hold magic and similar mental powers and spells. 
Orpsu live in mated pairs, producing litters of 1-4 live, instantly-active and hungry young (1-1 HD, attacks: 2-5/1-2) every three summers. Offspring remain with their parents to form a family “swarm,” which grows with the passing years and litters until the swarm numbers more than a dozen - whereupon 1-3 of the oldest, original offspring form mated pairs and fly off to find new (orpsu-less) hunting territory, and there found a swarm of their own.

Ecology: Surface-dwelling orpsu prey on sheep, cattle, many small creatures (having a particular fondness for badgers, foxes, and otters), large birds, and men. Subterranean orpsu prefer the blood of drow and duergar to all else.


some preliminary stats for the orpsu:

*Orpsu*
Small Aberration? Magical Beast?
Hit Dice: 1dX+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 5 ft (1 square), fly 40 ft (poor)
Armor Class: 13 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: Horn +X melee (1d4+X) and fang slash +X melee (1d3+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: hold monster, bleeding wounds, blood drain
Special Qualities: darkvision 150 ft, immunity to mind-affecting, levitation/flight?, low-light vision, telepathy (limited)
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 6, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 4
Feats: 1 (Toughness?)

Environment: Temperate desert?
Organization: “hunting swarm” (4-12)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: ---

An orpsu is 3 feet long and weighs about X pounds.

COMBAT

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #101 ("Creature Catalog III," September 1985, Ed Greenwood), FR13 – Anauroch (1991), and Monstrous Compendium MC11 - Forgotten Realms Appendix II (1991).


----------



## Knight Otu (Aug 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> *Orpsu*
> Small Aberration? Magical Beast?



 Aberration.


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Armor Class: 13 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X



 Don't forget size. I'd say no natural armor, and a +2 Dex bonus, which leads to an AC of 13.


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Special Attacks: hold monster, bleeding wounds, blood drain



 Not sure if I'd call it hold monster, but I'm at a loss for a better name atm...


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Special Qualities: darkvision 150 ft, immunity to mind-affecting, levitation/flight?, low-light vision, telepathy (limited)



 Telepathy would be 20 feet, wouldn't it? Flight should propably be Supernatural, according to the text.


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 6, Wis X, Cha X



 Dex 14 or 15. Con should propably be pretty good, as well (again 14 - 15, plus toughness feat (maybe even bonus? (am I using too many brackets?))). Doesn't seem particularly strong. 6 - 8? As a hunter, a good Wis would be preferable, and its magical nature suggests a slightly above average Charisma (11 - 13?)


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Environment: Temperate desert?



 Temperate deserts and plains and underground.


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Alignment: Always neutral evil



 I'd be in favor of "usually".


----------



## Shade (Aug 16, 2004)

I vote magical beast.  It doesn't seem "alien" enough to warrant aberration, a stirge is similar and is also a magical beast, and is better served with magical beast traits anyway.

I second the motion for supernatural flight and "usually neutral evil".


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## BOZ (Aug 16, 2004)

as for the type, the text clearly states that the orpsu and stirge are similar, but not related.



			
				Dragon 101 said:
			
		

> Unlike the more common stirge, the orpsu (which is sometimes mistakenly called a “night stirge” because of its diet; the two creatures are not related) has no barbs or claws with which to grip a victim securely.






			
				MC11 said:
			
		

> Orpsu, also known as “night stirges,” are flying predators who feed on fresh blood. They are unrelated to the more common stirge, and do not grip victims to feed.




so there is no reason we *have* to give them the same type.  Aberration would work just as well.  but there are also merits for going Magical Beast.

as for ability scores, let's see, how about... ?

Str 7, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 12

this, for one thing, reflects that it is larger than a strige.


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## Knight Otu (Aug 16, 2004)

I've decided aberration after looking at the picture (too bad I can't find any). There is a tiny little bit of cloaker or darkmantle in it. Of course, that doesn't help that much, as the cloaker is an aberration, while the darkmantle is a magical beast. 

 Ability scores look good.


----------



## Shade (Aug 16, 2004)

Point taken.  I simply loathe the aberration type, so was looking for anything to avoid it.   

Those ability scores look good to me.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 16, 2004)

yes it does have more of a physical resemblance to cloakers and darkmantles than stirges.  so, aberration then?


----------



## Shade (Aug 16, 2004)

If we must doom this poor hunter to cleric BAB and good Will saves, then so be it.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 25, 2004)

Aberration it is then… will work on that today if I get the chance.


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## BOZ (Aug 26, 2004)

Breakin it down!



> HIT DICE: 1 + 6



I’m thinking, possibly, we might want to raise the Con a bit to reflect this.  In 1E/2E it would have had 10 hp at only 1 HD.  Raising the Con to 22 to give it 10 hp now might be a bit much though.



			
				Dragon 101 said:
			
		

> NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 horn and 1 fang slash
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-7/1-3




Another thought here.  Since we gave it a Str penalty, we might want to do something to reflect the higher damage rating of the horn.  I have it with 1d4 so far, but with a –2 damage penalty that will only do a measly 2 damage at most.



			
				Dragon 101 said:
			
		

> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell and psionic immunities
> PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
> Attack/Defense Modes: See below




This suggests a resistance to certain types of psionics, explained better below. We can make that a separate ability if need be, but it can always just tie in with a resistance to spells.  This is not used in the 2E version – likely because of 2E’s aversion to psionics.



			
				Dragon 101 said:
			
		

> They have ultravision out to a 20” range and infravision to 15“, both of which are useful in their nighttime hunting.




low-light vision and darkvision, or just darkvision?



			
				Dragon 101 said:
			
		

> Their greatest threat to prey is the ability of each orpsu to use, once per day, a weak form of hold monster (as the 5th-level magic-user spell, against any single living target within 6“; target saves at +2, success indicating the target is affected as if by a slow spell). This hold effect (or slow, if save is made) lasts for 2-5 rounds, and is the means by which orpsu catch and overcome most of their prey.





			
				MC11 said:
			
		

> Once per day, an orpsu can use a weak form of hold monster (as the fifth-level wizard spell, except that only a single living being within 60’ can be attacked). If the target successfully saves (at +2) against this power, it is affected as if by a slow spell.




sounds like a magical based paralysis attack.



			
				Dragon 101 said:
			
		

> Orpsu can fly by some form of natural levitation combined with propulsion provided by the flailing of their tails. However, they are relatively slow and clumsy in the air, and generally only try to swoop down on prey after it has been held or slowed.





			
				MC11 said:
			
		

> Orpsu fly by natural levitation, propelling themselves forward by flailing and wriggling their tails, and steering by angling the membrane “wings” of their horns as they tilt their bodies.




thus, their supernatural flight capability.



			
				Dragon 101 said:
			
		

> Any wound inflicted by an orpsu horn will continue to bleed (the victim losing 1 hp per round thereafter) until the wound is bound or some form of curative magic is applied.





			
				MC11 said:
			
		

> Any wound caused by one continues to bleed (the victim losing 1 hp/round thereafter) until the wound is bound up (and the victim refrains from combat or other strenuous activity for at least 1 turn), or curative magic is applied.




I think this comes from any physical attack.  Probably an Ex ability.  How does “wounding” work now?



			
				Dragon 101 said:
			
		

> Orpsu will not attempt to drain blood unless a victim is held or until it collapses from wounds and blood loss. Its tentacles can penetrate a victim’s skin and provide some holding power, and the orpsu can also affix itself to a victim by coiling its tail around the body or an extremity of the prey. (The creatures have no legs or feet, and cannot move across solid surfaces.)
> The blood drain of an orpsu will sap 1-2 hp per round from a victim until the victim dies or the orpsu is knocked or rubbed off—not difficult to do but requiring conscious effort (and the ability to move) on the part of the victim.





			
				MC11 said:
			
		

> Orpsu only attempt to drain blood from victims who are held, asleep, or who have collapsed. Up to a dozen soft, flexible white tentacles emerge from slits in an orpsu’s belly (into which they retract when not needed). Orpsu have no barbs or claws to grip victims, and instead glide down to a flapping halt above chosen prey, onto which they settle heavily. The tentacles penetrate the victim’s skin, providing some holding power, and the orpsu usually wraps its tail around the victim’s body, limb or extremity. On the round after settling, the orpsu’s blood drain begins. It takes 1-2 hit points of blood per round, until the victim dies or the orpsu is knocked off (this is not difficult if the victim is conscious and able to move). A physical attack by another being usually causes a draining orpsu to bound into the air with a powerful coiling and whipping of its tail, and fly away. Orpsu have no known blood-satiation point. They remain alert when draining, and will abandon a victim rather than face certain death by remaining.




Works sort of like the stirge except without Attach.



			
				Dragon 101 said:
			
		

> Orpsu can communicate only with others of their kind, employing a sort of limited telepathy (2" range) which is incomprehensible and confusing to others who may try to “overhear.”





			
				MC11 said:
			
		

> Orpsu emit no calls or noises, and can communicate only with others of their kind, employing a limited, 20’-range telepathy that is incomprehensible to other beings employing magic or natural powers to mentally eavesdrop.




really weak telepathy.



			
				Dragon 101 said:
			
		

> The creatures are immune to charm, suggestion, domination, and hold magic, and psionic powers of similar nature, but otherwise have standard magic resistance.





			
				MC11 said:
			
		

> Their peculiar mental activity renders them immune to charm, suggestion, domination, and hold magic and similar mental powers and spells.




is “immune to mind-affecting effects” enough or should I add something about resisting mind-affecting psionics?


----------



## Shade (Aug 26, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Breakin it down!



Breakin 2...Electric Boogaloo!   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m thinking, possibly, we might want to raise the Con a bit to reflect this. In 1E/2E it would have had 10 hp at only 1 HD. Raising the Con to 22 to give it 10 hp now might be a bit much though.



Why not give it Toughness, either as a feat or bonus feat, and then keep the Con score a bit lower?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Another thought here. Since we gave it a Str penalty, we might want to do something to reflect the higher damage rating of the horn. I have it with 1d4 so far, but with a –2 damage penalty that will only do a measly 2 damage at most.



Hmmm....why not boost it up to 1d6, and raise Str to 10? 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> This suggests a resistance to certain types of psionics, explained better below. We can make that a separate ability if need be, but it can always just tie in with a resistance to spells. This is not used in the 2E version – likely because of 2E’s aversion to psionics.



A couple of options...give it psionic resistance equal to spell resistance, or just give it spell resistance under the assumption that the psionics=spells if not using the psionic rules (which I believe is the standard in most non-psionic products). 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> low-light vision and darkvision, or just darkvision?



Both.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds like a magical based paralysis attack.



That it does. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> thus, their supernatural flight capability.



Thus.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I think this comes from any physical attack. Probably an Ex ability. How does “wounding” work now?



Wounding, the magic item ability, now does 1 point of Con damage.  However, I've seen 3.5 monsters with abilities that mimic the "old school" wounding, so I'd go with that. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Works sort of like the stirge except without Attach.



Agreed. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> really weak telepathy.



Once more, agreed. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> is “immune to mind-affecting effects” enough or should I add something about resisting mind-affecting psionics?



I think that should cover it.


----------



## Knight Otu (Aug 26, 2004)

I agree with everything that Shade wrote in post # 1724939. 

 I'll also add this bit from the bearded devil to back up the "old-school" wounding. 



> Infernal Wound (Su): The damage a bearded devil deals with its glaive causes a persistent wound. An injured creature loses 2 additional hit points each round. The wound does not heal naturally and resists healing spells. The continuing hit point loss can be stopped by a DC 16 Heal check, a cure spell, or a heal spell. However, a character attempting to cast a cure spell or a heal spell on a creature damaged by a bearded devil’s glaive must succeed on a DC 16 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the injured character.
> A successful Heal check automatically stops the continuing hit point loss as well as restoring hit points. The infernal wound is a supernatural ability of the bearded devil, not of the weapon. The check DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 27, 2004)

thanks knight!  for the orpsu, i'd have to give it a (probably weaker) Ex version of that, since there is no indication that it is a magical effect - unless i'm missing something.


----------



## thom99 (Sep 28, 2004)

Hey BOZ!!  Any idea when you'll be able to finish this critter?

thomas


----------



## BOZ (Sep 28, 2004)

nope, but if you give me a couple more weeks to finish what i am working on right now, i will get back to the orpsu.


----------



## thom99 (Sep 28, 2004)

Great!  Thanks a bunch for letting us know-and good luck on your current project!

thomas


----------



## BOZ (Sep 29, 2004)

thanks.   i'll be back here before you know it.


----------



## Filby (Oct 10, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> and yes, as demonstated in the OD&D thread, you can make requests at any time, even when i'm "on vacation" from conversions.




Well... in _that_ case... 

When the orpsu is done, any chance you might consider the ursik from the Creature Catalog II? And maybe the variant included in its entry (the vitch I think)?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 10, 2004)

well, i'll give that one a try if i can get the stupid Dragon archives to work...


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2004)

Ok, because I?m sure thom is still waiting here even a month later for this fellow?

Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years
Rockin my peers and puttin suckas in fear
Makin the tears rain down like a MON - soon
Listen to the bass go BOOM
Explosion, overpowerin
Over the competition, I'm towerin
Wreckin shop, when I drop these lyrics that'll make you call the cops
Don't you dare stare, you betta move
Don't ever compare
Me to the rest that'll all get sliced and diced
Competition's payin the price

I'm gonna knock you out (HUUUH!!!)
Mama said knock you out (HUUUH!!!)


Bleeding Wound (Ex): The damage an orpsu deals with its natural attacks causes a persistent wound.  An injured creature loses 1 additional hit point each round.  Multiple wounds result in cumulative hit point loss from bleeding. The continuing hit point loss can be stopped by a successful DC X Heal check (per wound), a cure spell, or a heal spell. A successful Heal check automatically stops the continuing hit point loss as well as restoring hit points.

Blood Drain (Ex): An orpsu can drain blood from a living victim by making a successful touch attack on a helpless victim.  On each following round, the orpsu drains blood, dealing (X) points of Constitution damage each round it remains in contact with the victim.  If the victim regains movement or if the orpsu is attacked, the orpsu detaches from the victim.

This one may need some work:
Hold Monster/Paralysis (Su?): Once per day, an orpsu can cause a single living being within 60 feet to become motionless.  The creature must succeed on a DC X Will save or be helpless and affected as by a hold monster spell for 1d4+1 rounds.  If the creature succeeds on the save, it is instead affected as by the slow spell for 1d4+1 rounds.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

As for the flight, on second thought, the repeated phrase ?natural levitation? suggests that it may be Ex instead of Su.  May not even need a writeup.

   Telepathy (Su): An orpsu can communicate telepathically with other orpsu, provided they are within 20 feet.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2004)

_MON-soon_ indeed!

For the flight, it is probably both Ex and does require an additional entry, just like the beholder:

Bleeding Wound/Wounding Heal check DC is usually 15.

Blood drain:  1d4 Con?

Hold Monster/Paralysis:  Since hold monster now allows Will saves each round, this could be problematic.   Perhaps simply use paralysis?

Flight (Ex): A beholder's body is *naturally* buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

-LL Cool Shade


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## BOZ (Nov 23, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Bleeding Wound/Wounding Heal check DC is usually 15.




Except in cases where the damage is supernatural, such as a bearded devil?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Blood drain: 1d4 Con?




Hmm… the original damage being 1-2 hp, then 1d4 Con seems a bit severe.  How about just 1d2 Con?  Still a lot more damage, but that’s about as low as we can go.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Hold Monster/Paralysis: Since hold monster now allows Will saves each round, this could be problematic. Perhaps simply use paralysis?




Yes, that is a bit problematic – the save DC is low (1HD, Cha 12), so most creatures would break out quickly.  Making it simpler then:

Paralysis (Su): Once per day, an orpsu can cause a single living being within 60 feet to become paralyzed. The creature must succeed on a DC 11 Will save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. If the creature succeeds on the save, it is instead affected as by the slow spell for 1d4+1 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Note also, in the original description (if I’m reading that right) characters got a +2 bonus against the save, so the DC is fine being low.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For the flight, it is probably both Ex and does require an additional entry, just like the beholder:
> 
> Flight (Ex): A beholder's body is *naturally* buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.




that works.  But we’ve got a kite instead of a sphere.    How about: 

Flight (Ex): An orpsu's body is able to levitate naturally, practically floating on the air and using the flailing of its tail for propulsion.  It steers by angling the membranes attached to its horns and tilting its body.  This allows the orpsu to fly at a speed of 40 feet, and grants the orpsu a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> -LL Cool Shade


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Except in cases where the damage is supernatural, such as a bearded devil?



Interesting...yet the nycaloth went back to the stock 15.  Weird.   I guess we can do whatever we'd prefer in this case.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Hmm… the original damage being 1-2 hp, then 1d4 Con seems a bit severe. How about just 1d2 Con? Still a lot more damage, but that’s about as low as we can go.



Agreed, although we could go lower to simply 1 point. 

Yes, that is a bit problematic – the save DC is low (1HD, Cha 12), so most creatures would break out quickly. Making it simpler then:



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Paralysis (Su): Once per day, an orpsu can cause a single living being within 60 feet to become paralyzed. The creature must succeed on a DC 11 Will save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. If the creature succeeds on the save, it is instead affected as by the slow spell for 1d4+1 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> Note also, in the original description (if I’m reading that right) characters got a +2 bonus against the save, so the DC is fine being low.



Excellent. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that works. But we’ve got a kite instead of a sphere.  How about_:
> 
> Flight (Ex): An orpsu's body is able to levitate naturally, practically floating on the air and using the flailing of its tail for propulsion. It steers by angling the membranes attached to its horns and tilting its body. This allows the orpsu to fly at a speed of 40 feet, and grants the orpsu a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.



Perfecto.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Interesting...yet the nycaloth went back to the stock 15. Weird. I guess we can do whatever we'd prefer in this case.




and I would prefer to keep it simple, in this case, and stick with 15.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Agreed, although we could go lower to simply 1 point.




yes.  Indeed.  

will come up with the flavor text in the near future.

In the meantime, posting in homebrews…


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2004)

A few thoughts...



> An orpsu is at a disadvantage if knocked out of the air, and therefore instinctively swoops down to strike targets at an angle, as it passes - so only one side of its body menaces prey, and only one horn (either the front horn - or, if it misses, the angled, dragging rear horn) can strike an intended target per swoop (in addition to the orpsu’s fangs). A horn attack does 1d4 + 3 damage.



This implies to me that the orpsu should have Flyby Attack, and that its Attack line should be the horn attack.   I'd recommend adding Flyby Attack and making Toughness a bonus feat.



> Orpsu live in mated pairs, producing litters of 1-4 live, instantly-active and hungry young (1-1 HD, attacks: 2-5/1-2) every three summers. Offspring remain with their parents to form a family “swarm,” which grows with the passing years and litters until the swarm numbers more than a dozen - whereupon 1-3 of the oldest, original offspring form mated pairs and fly off to find new (orpsu-less) hunting territory, and there found a swarm of their own.





> Organization: “hunting swarm” (4-12 – usually 6 or 7)



Based on this, I'd recommend the following organization line.

Organization: Pair, family (2 orpsus plus 1-4 young), hunting swarm (6-7), or family swarm (4-12 plus 1-4 young).

Mention the young stats in the descriptive text as a reduced stat block.  Something like:

Young Orpsu:  Tiny aberration; CR X; HD 1/2d8 (2 hp); AC 15 (touch 15, flat-footed 12); Base Atk/Grp +0/-8; Atk +1 melee (1d4-1, horn); Full Atk +1 melee (1d4, horn) and -4 melee (1d2-1, fang slash); Space/Reach 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.; Sv Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +3; Str 8, Dex 17, Con 10; Int 6; Wis 12; Cha 12; 
Skills and Feats; Skills, Flyby Attack.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> This implies to me that the orpsu should have Flyby Attack, and that its Attack line should be the horn attack. I'd recommend adding Flyby Attack and making Toughness a bonus feat.




excellent idea.    and every hit causes bleeding wounds, so it wouldn’t take long for a pack of these guys to tear apart a low-level party…



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Based on this, I'd recommend the following organization line.
> 
> Organization: Pair, family (2 orpsus plus 1-4 young), hunting swarm (6-7), or family swarm (4-12 plus 1-4 young).
> 
> ...




that all looks good, but I think we’d need to get rid of the word “swarm” since that has very distinct connotations in 3.5.  perhaps “hunting pack” and “family flock” or something?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2004)

I kinda like "flock", since they fly, and pack is so overused.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 24, 2004)

Well, bats use colony and crowd... So we could have hunting flock instead of hunting swarm, and colony instead of family swarm.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2004)

colony might just be better than flock, since flock is so bird-like.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2004)

Let's make 'em colonial, then.


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## BOZ (Nov 25, 2004)

groovin.  i'll be working on this stuff all weekend, when i get the chance (not much tomorrow, but possibly in the evening), so expect the flavor text soon.


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2004)

is this soon enough?

_This hairless beast has a small body, with four bony protrusions that project out from its body like a pair of back-to-back crescents.  The front crescent curls around the creature's raking fangs, while the rear crescent wraps around its rat-like tail, and a leathery-skinned membrane stretches out like a sheet between the four tips._

The orpsu is a decidedly nocturnal hunter that is also called a "night stirge."  While it has no relation to stirges, it is a flying predator that feeds on fresh blood.  They are commonly found in temperate wastelands (in the Forgotten Realms, they are common in Kara-Tur and the steppes, plains, and deserts that lie west of the Eastern Realms), and inhabit rocky places like caverns and ruins, and tall trees.  They hunt in open, rolling scrubland and plains, and feast on sheep, cattle, woodland animals (particularly badgers, foxes, and otters), large birds, and even humanoids.

Orpsu live in mated pairs, and produce litters of live, instantly active and hungry young, every three summers.  Such offspring remain in a family group which will eventually grow to over a dozen, and which point the oldest orpsu split off in pairs to mate and make new families in new hunting territories.

Orpsu have mottled skin of crimson, purple, mauve, or cinnamon-brown hue, which is veined and leathery.  This weird creature has a prehensile tail that is too weak to hold struggling prey or wield any sort of weapon, but allows the orpsu to drag small objects or coil around a tree limb when at rest.  Its razor-sharp, blade-like bony ?horns? are used like wings, and an orpsu steers by angling the membranes attached to its horns and tilting its body.  The orpsu has a row of 4 or more stout, downward pointing fangs; but with no lower jaw, it cannot attack by biting in the normal fashion, and thus slashes or rakes with its fangs instead. Orpsu have no legs or feet, and can only move on the ground by clumsily undulating their bodies. 

An orpsu is 3 feet long, with its horns spanning over 2 feet in width, and weighs about X pounds.

Orpsu make no calls or noises, and only communicate with each other telepathically.  This telepathic communication is incomprehensible and confusing to any other creature that is able to listen to it using magic, psionics, or other abilities.

COMBAT
Orpsu hunt only in darkness, to avoid attacks from larger predators when flying in the open.  An orpsu will try to paralyze its prey before attacking, and catch and overcome most of its prey this way.  If an orpsu paralyzes a victim, or comes across a sleeping or otherwise helpless creature, it will glide down and land belly-down on the prey, wrapping its tail around the body.  A cluster of soft, white, flexible tentacles emerge from slits in the abdomen, which penetrate the victim's body and begin to drain blood.  It is unable to maintain a firm grip with either the tail or tentacles, and any mobile victim or assisting friend will cause the orpsu to bound into the air and fly away.

If an orpsu is unable to find suitable prey to drain blood from, it will swoop down on prey to use its natural attacks.  An orpsu is relatively clumsy in flight, and instinctively attacks at an angle as it passes, leaving it able to use only one horn to attack at a time.  An orpsu is at a disadvantage if knocked out of the air, so it will be careful to attack only slowed or otherwise vulnerable targets if it can help it.


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 26, 2004)

I like it.  But I'm not sure if we should include references to the Realms...


----------



## BOZ (Nov 26, 2004)

we've done it before...  (that's why i left that part in parenthesis)


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## thom99 (Nov 27, 2004)

Wahooo!!  *Glad* to see ya back Boz (and Shade)!  Thanks for finishing this guy up!  I haven't had a chance to fully digest the last 2 pages but I intend to start now.  

Considering the orpsu is originally a FR creature, I think the references are just fine!

thanks again, guys!

thomas


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## BOZ (Nov 27, 2004)

i was thinking though, to change that to a section of "IN THE REALMS" instead of having it in there like that, if that is a better idea.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 27, 2004)

Personally, I'd try to keep references to campaign settings to a minimum as long as we can avoid it (It's a bit hard not to talk about Vecna when converting his hand and eye, for example).


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2004)

I like the "In the Realms" section, but _can_ we do that?  Since Realms stuff isn't usually OGL, I'd be concerned.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 27, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd try to keep references to campaign settings to a minimum as long as we can avoid it (It's a bit hard not to talk about Vecna when converting his hand and eye, for example).




is one sentence minimal enough?  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I like the "In the Realms" section, but can we do that? Since Realms stuff isn't usually OGL, I'd be concerned.




I've referred to WotC IP frequently throughout the Creature Catalog.  If they ever send us a cease & desist, I will personally edit everything that needs editing, and (unfortunately) remove what monsters need to be removed - such as the Hand and Eye.

OK, what's left...  Skills, only 4 points, might as well go with Spot & Listen.

Updating in homebrews... CR 2 about right or too high?


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## Knight Otu (Nov 28, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> is one sentence minimal enough?



 It's the other way round for me - is that one sentence an absolute necessity? 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Updating in homebrews... CR 2 about right or too high?



 Might be ok. Youngs would be CR 1?


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> It's the other way round for me - is that one sentence an absolute necessity?



Does it really hurt anything?  It's not like in the MM3, where it would be wasting valuable space that could add another creature (albeit, probably another goblin, troll, or ogre variant).  

CR 2 for orpsu seems fine.  Young 1/2?

A darkmantle weighs about 30 lbs.  It's a foot longer, so maybe 20 lbs. for orpsu?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 28, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> It's the other way round for me - is that one sentence an absolute necessity?






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Does it really hurt anything? It's not like in the MM3, where it would be wasting valuable space that could add another creature (albeit, probably another goblin, troll, or ogre variant).




if I removed everything that wasn't an absolute necessity, we'd have some pretty short monster entries.  Seeing no real need to remove the single sentence, I will leave it in.

Would the chillins look like this now then?

Orpsu Young: Tiny aberration; CR 1/2; HD 1/2d8 (2 hp); AC 15 (touch 15, flat-footed 12); Base Atk/Grp +0/-8; Atk +1 melee (1d4-1, horn); Full Atk +1 melee (1d4, horn) and -4 melee (1d2-1, fang slash); Space/Reach 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.; Sv Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +3; Str 8, Dex 17, Con 10; Int 6; Wis 12; Cha 12; 
Skills and Feats; Listen +3, Spot +3, Flyby Attack.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 28, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if I removed everything that wasn't an absolute necessity, we'd have some pretty short monster entries.



 Which wasn't really my point, since I was talking only about references to settings. 

 The young ones seem to be ok.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2004)

The wee ones look fine.


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Which wasn't really my point, since I was talking only about references to settings.




don't worry - if anyone comes a-knockin', I'll take the heat.  

OK, updating for one last look...


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2004)

My one last look found no errors.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 29, 2004)

What the shade said.


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## BOZ (Dec 3, 2004)

Filby said:
			
		

> When the orpsu is done, any chance you might consider the ursik from the Creature Catalog II? And maybe the variant included in its entry (the vitch I think)?




no, sorry, no chance at all.

URISK (Lubin)
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (10% chance of 2-5)
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 2 + 1
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: M (x100), Q
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 butt or 1 weapon
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 or by weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Minor spell use; +1 with weapons
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Hiding in natural terrain
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (lubins are chaotic neutral)
SIZE: S (3’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: III/95 + 3/hp

The urisk is very much like a 3’ tall, goat-headed satyr, having goatlike legs, a human torso, arms, and hands, and a small bushy tail wagging behind. A urisk is covered in shaggy brown fur. The urisk is solitary in nature and wanders through mountainous and forested terrain with no established lair, though it may have small caches of buried gold or gold jewelry. Intimately familiar with the terrain it inhabits, a urisk can hide well enough to become invisible to the casual observer.
If encountered, a urisk is 25% likely to be alone and 75% likely to have 1-4 mammalian companions with it, such as giant goats, bears, sheep, rams, deer, or the like. It can cast up to four charm mammal spells per day (save at -4) and may speak to any animal as often as desired. The charm mammal spell will only affect normal or giant mammals, and not humans, humanoids, or demi-humans. The mammals so charmed will obey the urisk completely, even unto death.
A urisk may also cast warp wood at the 12th level of ability three times per day, and may pass without trace for up to one hour a day in any terrain. A urisk will attack by butting most of the time, but some prefer to use small weapons like daggers, hand axes, clubs, and short swords. Any weapon being held by a urisk will function as a +1 weapon for hit-determination purposes if it is non-magical; magical weapons are treated normally. This bonus to hit is temporary only, and is removed as soon as the urisk lets go of the weapon.
Urisks are particularly friendly with gnomes and druids, neutral towards humans, elves, halflings, and dwarves, and hate all humanoids such as orcs and goblins. They speak their own language, their alignment tongue (neutral), common, and the languages of gnomes, dwarves, elves, and orcs.
A variant species very much like the urisk, called the lubin, averages 2½’ in height and is black-furred; but otherwise similar to the urisk. Lubins inhabit forests and fields and cast charm person spells up to three times a day, rather than charm mammal. Lubins may also speak with animals as they please, but do not have companions as urisks do. Lubins are chaotic neutral alignments, and speak their own tongue, their alignment tongue, and the language of sylvan elves, gnomes, and common. All other spells, powers, and habits are as for urisks. Lubins and urisks speak to each other in the language of animals rather than in each other’s languages. Both urisks and lubins are quite rare, and not frequently encountered.
For random determination of a given urisk’s companion when encountered, use Appendix L: Conjured Animals in the Dungeon Masters Guide, rolling a d6 to see which hit-dice category each of the 1-4 companions is and rolling percentile dice to determine exactly which animal is present. All companions of a urisk will be completely at ease with one another and can work in complete harmony, even if this is not normally likely (due to the powerful charm upon them).



some preliminary stats for the urisk:

*Urisk*
Small (Monstrous Humanoid?  Fey?)
Hit Dice: 2dX+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: Butt +X melee (1d4+X) or weapon +X melee (X+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: charm mammal, weapon bonus
Special Qualities: (pass without trace, warp wood)
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con (12?), Int (12?), Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X (Hide bonus?)
Feats: 1

Environment: Any mountains and forest?
Organization: Solitary or 2-5
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard?
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class?
Level Adjustment: +X


A urisk is 3 feet tall and weighs about X pounds.


COMBAT

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #94 (“Creature Catalog II,” February 1986, Roger E. Moore).


----------



## Filby (Dec 4, 2004)

*Huzzah*!

Lubin, right. That's the variant I was thinking of.

For type, I'd suggest Fey. I first heard of the creature in a book on fairies (_Faeries_, by Brian Froud and Alan Lee, if you're familiar with it), and seen it on a few webpages describing it as a "Scottish fairy". Most lore on urisks says that they live near pools of water, crying because humans are afraid of its beastly countenance. 

If they're helpful, here's some other, non-D&D descriptions of the urisk:

"A urisk is kind of like a brownie, but a little rougher. They live in the Highlands of Scotland. They kind of look like Pan, at least for their goat legs. They do household jobs as well as work on the farm (herding sheep and cattle). They live alone but have meetings several times a year."

"Urisk - He is a solitary Scottish faerie who haunts pools. He's very lonely and tries to find a friend among the humans, but they run from him since he looks somewhat frightening."

Here's a story about a slightly more spritely urisk.

I'd make the environment line "Temperate forests and mountains". Or maybe hills.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 4, 2004)

Fey, definitely.

 Charm mammal should become charm animal, as per the spell.

 Enhanced Weapon (Su): Urisks gain a +1 enhancement bonus on their attack rolls when uaing weapons, and their weapon attacks are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The enhancement bonus does not stack with the masterwork bonus of masterwork weapons(, or with the enhancement bonus of magic weapons).?


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2004)

Fey, yeah, that makes sense.  Googling on the name earlier today, I found enough sites to suggest a faerie relation.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Charm mammal should become charm animal, as per the spell.




“If encountered, a urisk is 25% likely to be alone and 75% likely to have 1-4 mammalian companions with it, such as giant goats, bears, sheep, rams, deer, or the like. It can cast up to four charm mammal spells per day (save at -4) and may speak to any animal as often as desired. The charm mammal spell will only affect normal or giant mammals, and not humans, humanoids, or demi-humans. The mammals so charmed will obey the urisk completely, even unto death.”

That seems a bit more powerful than charm person or charm animal though, doesn’t it?



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Enhanced Weapon (Su): Urisks gain a +1 enhancement bonus on their attack rolls when uaing weapons, and their weapon attacks are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The enhancement bonus does not stack with the masterwork bonus of masterwork weapons(, or with the enhancement bonus of magic weapons).?




a bit of modification…

Enhance Weapons (Su): A urisk gains a +1 enhancement bonus on its attack rolls when wielding a weapon, and the weapon is treated as magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. This enhancement bonus does not stack with any other enhancement bonus (such as the enhancement bonus of masterwork weapons or magic weapons).

Or even simpler: 

Enhance Weapons (Su): Any weapon is treated as a masterwork weapon when wielded by a urisk.


Edit:  and again, i almost forget to post the picture:


----------



## Knight Otu (Dec 4, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> That seems a bit more powerful than charm person or charm animal though, doesn’t it?



 We could always use dominate animal instead.



> Enhance Weapons (Su): Any weapon is treated as a masterwork weapon when wielded by a urisk.



 Should it have the ability to penetrate magic DR?
 And rereading it a bit, maybe thrown weapons don't get the bonus?


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> That seems a bit more powerful than charm person or charm animal though, doesn’t it?





			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> We could always use dominate animal instead.



It actually sounds like the animal companion class feature to me.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Should it have the ability to penetrate magic DR?



I think it should.


----------



## Knight Otu (Dec 4, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> It actually sounds like the animal companion class feature to me.



 I thought so at first as well, but the 3.5 changes to animal companions don't fit the urisk, especially the single companion bit.


----------



## Shade (Dec 5, 2004)

Good point.

How about make it like _mass charm monster_, but have it affect only creatures of the animal type?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 6, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Should it have the ability to penetrate magic DR?




yes.  So I guess the first version then.  



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> And rereading it a bit, maybe thrown weapons don't get the bonus?




"Any weapon being held by a urisk will function as a +1 weapon..." "This bonus to hit... is removed as soon as the urisk lets go of the weapon."

Hmm, you might be right!




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It actually sounds like the animal companion class feature to me.






			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I thought so at first as well, but the 3.5 changes to animal companions don't fit the urisk, especially the single companion bit.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> How about make it like mass charm monster, but have it affect only creatures of the animal type?




I don't like either alone - how about a hybrid of the two?  We always have the option of writing our own rules, even when it's easier to use already existing ones.


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2004)

Something like:

Mammal Companions (Ex):  An urisk may have up to 4 mammal companions at a time.  This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the urisk on its adventures as appropriate for its kind.  A mammal companion is completely typical for its kind.  The urisk may select any mammal of Large or smaller size.

An urisk can handle its mammal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if it doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The urisk gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding a mammal companion.

I'm thinking we should give it ranks in Handle Animal and the wild empathy ability.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 6, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Something like:
> 
> Mammal Companions (Ex): An urisk may have up to 4 mammal companions at a time. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the urisk on its adventures as appropriate for its kind. A mammal companion is completely typical for its kind. The urisk may select any mammal of Large or smaller size.
> 
> An urisk can handle its mammal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if it doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The urisk gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding a mammal companion.




wicked awesome.  

I think we can call it animal companion though, and make it clear that all are mammals.

The only real problem is that you left off a way to gain new companions.  Let me add that in:

Animal Companion (Sp?): A urisk may have up to 4 animal companions at a time.  This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the urisk on its adventures as appropriate for its kind. An animal companion is completely typical for its kind.  A urisk may select any creature of the animal type of Large or smaller size, and all of its animal companions must be mammals.  There is no limit on the number of Hit Dice of mammals that may serve as companions for a urisk.

If a urisk releases one of its companions from service, it may gain a new one using its special charm ability.  This charm can also replace an animal companion that has perished. A urisk may use this power four times per day, but cannot gain a new animal companion if it already has four in its service.  This power functions as the charm animal spell, except that the effect lasts until the urisk releases the animal, or the urisk or animal dies.

A urisk can handle one of its animal companions as a free action, or push it as a move action. The urisk gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.  The animal companion will obey the urisk’s commands completely, even if it must risk its own life to do so (though it will not obey suicidal or obviously harmful orders).




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm thinking we should give it ranks in Handle Animal and the wild empathy ability.




definitely on both.

Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except that the urisk has a +X racial bonus on the check.  (and, probably, some synergy from Handle Animal!)

Maybe also give it speak with animals at will as a spell-like?


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2004)

Good catch, and nice revision.  

Speak with animals at will sounds good, too.


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2004)

Some bits from the original article:

Intimately familiar with the terrain it inhabits, a urisk can hide well enough to become invisible to the casual observer.

A urisk may also cast warp wood at the 12th level of ability three times per day, and may pass without trace for up to one hour a day in any terrain. *(and speak with animals at will)

A variant species very much like the urisk, called the lubin, averages 2½’ in height and is black-furred; but otherwise similar to the urisk. Lubins inhabit forests and fields and cast charm person spells up to three times a day, rather than charm mammal. Lubins may also speak with animals as they please, but do not have companions as urisks do. 

* looking closely at this last paragraph, it seems that we should cap out the maximum HD of an animal companion at 6-HD.  So, it could theoretically have 4 companions with 6-HD, which is still pretty decent.  

For random determination of a given urisk’s companion when encountered, use Appendix L: Conjured Animals in the Dungeon Masters Guide, rolling a d6 to see which hit-dice category each of the 1-4 companions is and rolling percentile dice to determine exactly which animal is present. All companions of a urisk will be completely at ease with one another and can work in complete harmony, even if this is not normally likely (due to the powerful charm upon them).


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Intimately familiar with the terrain it inhabits, a urisk can hide well enough to become invisible to the casual observer.



Perhaps borrow this?

*Camouflage (Ex):* A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

and this?
*Hide in Plain Sight (Ex):* While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A urisk may also cast warp wood at the 12th level of ability three times per day, and may pass without trace for up to one hour a day in any terrain. *(and speak with animals at will)



Spell-Like Abilities: At will--_speak with animals_; 3/day--_warp wood_ (DC X). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

As for the other, I see several options:

Trackless Step (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a druid leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.

-or-

Pass Without Trace (Su):  A urisk may pass without trace (as the spell) for up to one hour a day in any terrain.  The duration does not need to be continous.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A variant species very much like the urisk, called the lubin, averages 2½’ in height and is black-furred; but otherwise similar to the urisk. Lubins inhabit forests and fields and cast charm person spells up to three times a day, rather than charm mammal. Lubins may also speak with animals as they please, but do not have companions as urisks do.



These guys should have a lower CR.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> * looking closely at this last paragraph, it seems that we should cap out the maximum HD of an animal companion at 6-HD. So, it could theoretically have 4 companions with 6-HD, which is still pretty decent.



Indeed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For random determination of a given urisk’s companion when encountered, use Appendix L: Conjured Animals in the Dungeon Masters Guide, rolling a d6 to see which hit-dice category each of the 1-4 companions is and rolling percentile dice to determine exactly which animal is present. All companions of a urisk will be completely at ease with one another and can work in complete harmony, even if this is not normally likely (due to the powerful charm upon them).



This is probably not needed, but we could work some of it into the mammal companions ability.


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps borrow this?
> 
> Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn?t grant cover or concealment.
> 
> ...




perhaps combine the two?

?Nature Hide? (Ex): A urisk can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn?t grant cover or concealment, and can use the Hide skill even while being observed.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> As for the other, I see several options:
> 
> Trackless Step (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a druid leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.
> 
> ...




I prefer the latter.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> These guys should have a lower CR.




yeah, maybe lower by 1.  should it be enough to just give them charm person as a spell-like ability 3/day?

?Lubins inhabit forests and fields and cast charm person spells up to three times a day, rather than charm mammal. Lubins may also speak with animals as they please, but do not have companions as urisks do.?


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> perhaps combine the two?
> 
> ?Nature Hide? (Ex): A urisk can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn?t grant cover or concealment, and can use the Hide skill even while being observed.



Looks good.  Perhaps "Natural Stealth" for the ability's name? 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I prefer the latter.



Cool. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, maybe lower by 1. should it be enough to just give them charm person as a spell-like ability 3/day?



I think that should suffice.


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2004)

Cool.  Posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2004)

Lookin' good.

Just a note to remember the +4 bonus to Jump checks for its fast land speed.

We should probably work on ability scores before proceeding.

I think it should have high Dex and Cha, decent Wis, and low to average Str.

Perhaps something like:   Str 9, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 15?


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2004)

those scores sound good...


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## BOZ (Dec 14, 2004)

_This being looks like a very short human, with the head and legs of a goat, and a small bushy tail wagging behind it.  It has a human torso and arms, but its whole body is covered in shaggy brown hair._

The urisk is a rarely encountered creature of the wilderness with a similar appearance to a satyr.  A urisk is a solitary wanderer with no established lair, though its small caches of gold and golden jewelry can be found buried throughout the lands it roams.  It is sometimes found alone, but usually travels with mammalian companions appropriate to the terrain, such as goats, bears, sheep, rams, and deer.

Urisks are particularly friendly with gnomes and druids, and creatures of the wilderness.  They are neutral towards humans, elves, halflings, and dwarves, and hate all evil humanoids such as orcs and goblins. 

A urisk is 3 feet tall and weighs 30-50? pounds.

A urisk speaks Sylvan, Common, Gnome, Dwarf, Elf, and Orc.

COMBAT
A urisk usually attacks with its head butt, though some prefer to carry small weapons such as daggers, hand axes, clubs, and short swords.  A urisk is intimately familiar with the terrain it inhabits, and can become effectively invisible to the casual observer.

LUBIN
The lubin is a variant species much like the urisk.  They appear the same as urisks, but are 2 1/2 feet tall on average, and have black fur.  Lubins live in forest and fields, and can speak Sylvan, Elf, Gnome, and Common.  They are usually chaotic neutral in alignment.
Lubins and Urisks otherwise share the same tendencies and special abilities, though lubins lack the ability to take animal companions.  Instead, they can cast charm person as a spell-like ability, 3 times per day.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2004)

Lookin' good.  How 'bout 40 lbs.?


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## BOZ (Dec 14, 2004)

ideas?

Abilities: Str 9, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 15
Skills: 35 (+4 Jump, also Handle Animal, Hide, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spot)
Feats: 1 (Stealthy?)


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2004)

Put 5 ranks in each of the skills you've got listed, and it's good to go.

Stealthy sounds good.  Animal Affinity also wouldn't be bad.


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## BOZ (Dec 15, 2004)

updating in homebrews... you know what we have when this guy is finished, don't you?


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## Filby (Dec 15, 2004)

Huz-ZAH! 

I dunno if ranks in Ride would really fit... maybe Climb or Balance (like a mountain goat?) instead?


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## BOZ (Dec 15, 2004)

Filby said:
			
		

> I dunno if ranks in Ride would really fit... maybe Climb or Balance (like a mountain goat?) instead?




actually, I think Ride is perfect.  Remember, it is a little guy, and often commands bigger animals.    but I could add some Climb and/or Balance ranks on there all the same?


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> updating in homebrews... you know what we have when this guy is finished, don't you?



Eternal life?   An orcish pie?  Closure?   

I'm guessing it has something to do with the number 10.

We'll need to pick a manufactured weapon to use on the attack lines.   I'd go with handaxe, since so many critters use short swords and daggers.

Attack line should be head butt or weapon, methinks.

LA should be +1:
-1 for Small size
+1 for unbalance ability scores
+1 for "at will" spell-like ability


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## Knight Otu (Dec 15, 2004)

CR 2?
 It does have a few nice abilities. LA +2, maybe?


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## BOZ (Dec 15, 2004)

i'll let you guys fight over that.    *cues star trek fight music*


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2004)

Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor not a fighter.

CR 2/LA +2 is fine with me.  

Lubin should be CR 1/LA +1, though.  That improved animal companion ability is definitely worth a point of each at low levels.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 15, 2004)

1/+1 for the lubin sounds fine.


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2004)

Advancement: By character class?

Animal Companion (Sp?)  save DC 14?

Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except that the urisk has a +X racial bonus on the check.  (and synergy from Handle Animal skill?)


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2004)

Yes to character class.  Preferred class druid or ranger?

Animal companion DC 13.  Should we add "The save DC is Charisma-based"?

I'm unsure how the figure the wild empathy bonus for critters.   The unicorn, dryad, and nymph all have a +6 racial bonus.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 16, 2004)

By class; ranger
 Su, not Sp, I'd say. Add "The save DC is Charisma-based."
 +4?


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2004)

Yeah, agreed on Su.

I'm interested in how they figure the racial bonus on Wild Empathy.  I suppose we could arbitrarily assign a number, but I wonder if a formula exists (or if it is always simply +6).


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2004)

eh, why buck the trends.  

updating in homebrews - how do we look?  

as an aside, i may be busy all or most of the day tomorrow, so i may not be posting.  keep an eye out for me all the same.    i'll post the new conversions in the CC when i have the time, maybe over the weekend.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2004)

I looked it over, and it looks finished.

What's next?  If we are keeping with the last few conversions and doing Creature Catalog monsters, I'd request the wind thrower from Creature Catalog III.


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## BOZ (Dec 17, 2004)

wind thrower?  now, that's just rude.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2004)

The cheese cutter and loaf pincher are even worse.


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## BOZ (Dec 17, 2004)

whoof!!


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 30, 2005)

Hey Boz,

I've been looking at the messageboards since 2001, but I've been too shy to post.  If you ever have the time again (congratulations BTW) are you ever going to do this thread again? There are a lot of creatures that I would like to see converted.  For starters, how about the cantobele from #89, a creature thar is long overdue for a conversion?


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## BOZ (May 1, 2005)

cool, i do take requests when i feel like it.    ultra busy with life at the moment, plus busy with a few other conversions and other things going on, but i will get to that one in the not too distant future.


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## BOZ (Jun 28, 2005)

here we go!  an interesting creature indeed!


Dragon #89:

CANTOBELE
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 13"
HIT DICE: 2-4
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: C, Q
NO. OF ATTACKS: 6 claws, 1 bite, and 1 tail slap
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 (x6)/2-8/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spell use; multiple attacks
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to cold
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average to high
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (7' – 9' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: 2 HD, III/89 + 2/hp
3 HD, III/135 + 3/hp
4 HD, IV/200 + 4/hp

Cantobeles are weird creatures encountered in wilderness areas, particularly in swamps and forested ravines. A cantobele has a high-pitched, soft, feminine voice, and uses it effectively to lure prey and deceive hostile creatures by remaining hidden in underbrush and employing its voice in combination with its innate abilities of <I>ESP</I> (9" range) and <I>tongues</I>.  Cantobeles hide from view until they are close enough to spring onto prey. The name of the creature is derived from the strange, beautiful ringing sound, like a chorus of chiming bells, which the cantobele emits after making a kill.

Cantobeles fight with all three of their pairs of legs and with their powerful fangs. A cantobele's tail can also strike (1-6 damage), but it is usually used for balance when the creature uses all its claws. Cantobeles prefer to spring upon opponents, knocking them flat and raking and biting before the victim can rise to defend itself.

A cantobele can cast one <I>misdirection</I> and two <I>ice storm</I> spells every day, but can take no other action in the round in which the spell is cast. Cantobeles suffer no damage from cold. They have 11" infravision and eyes which filter out glare, and are never blinded or dazzled by snow or bright lights. Their claws and six-legged gait make them sure-footed on the slickest ice, in deep snow, or on tree boughs. Cantobeles hoard victims' treasure for use in bargaining.

Cantobeles are large and heavily muscled, but sleek in the manner of the great cats. A cantobele has a broad tail with very short fur, ending in a tuft of long black hairs. The rest of the creature's body is covered with thick fur, ranging in color from grey-white to tawny depending on habitat and season (colored for camouflage), and maturity (darker, more intense coloration denotes youth). The long mane of the cantobele matches its body and tail fur. A cantobele's eyes are startlingly human in appearance, the pupils a brown of mauve.



FR MC2:

Cantobele
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps and forests
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to high
TREASURE: All possible
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1

ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 2 to 4
THAC0: 2 HD: 19
3 HD: 18
4 HD: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 8
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to cold
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (7'-9' long)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP Value: 2 HD: 650
3 HD: 975
4 HD: 1,400

Cantobeles are large, heavily-muscled creatures that are sleek in the manner of the great cats. A cantobele has a long, broad tail with very short fur, ending in a tuft of long, black hairs. The rest of the creature’s body is covered with thick, double-coated fur, ranging in color from gray-white to tawny, depending on habitat and season. The adult cantobele changes color with the season for camouflage, but darker, more intense coloration denotes youth. The long mane of the cantobele matches its body and tail fur. A cantobele's eyes are startlingly human in appearance and display a great intelligence. The irises are brown or mauve.

Cantobeles are encountered in wilderness areas, particularly in swamps and forested ravines. A cantobele has a high-pitched, soft, feminine voice, and uses it effectively to lure prey and deceive hostile creatures. Hiding in underbrush, it employs its voice in combination with its innate ability of ESP (90 yard range) and tongues. Cantobeles hide from view until their prey is close enough to spring upon. The name of the creature derives from the strange, beautiful ringing sound, like the chorus of chiming bells, which the cantobele emits after making a kill.

Combat: Cantobeles fight with all three pairs of legs and with their powerful fangs. A cantobele's tail can also strike, but it is usually used for balance when the creature uses all its claws. Cantobeles prefer to spring upon opponents, knocking them flat and raking and biting before the victim can rise to protect itself. When a cantobele attempts to knock an opponent off its feet, the victim must roll a successful Dexterity check with a -4 penalty to maintain balance. If the check fails, the victim falls, and the cantobele attacks with a +4 bonus with each of its attacks. The following chart lists the damage the cantobele causes according to its Hit Dice total.

Hit Dice Claw Bite Tail
2 1-4 2-8 1-6
3 1-6 3-12 1-8
4 1-8 4-16 1-10

A cantobele can cast one misdirection spell per day. It commonly uses this spell to lure heavily armed foes away from its lair. It can cast one ice storm spell every 12 hours as well. When casting any of these spells, the cantobele can take no other action during that round.
Cantobeles are immune to cold-based attacks, including naturally occurring frigid weather. They have 110-foot infravision and eyes that filter out glare. Cantobeles are never blinded or dazzled by snow or bright lights. Their second eyelid continually filters out the intense light to protect their eyes.
Their claws and six-legged gait make them sure-footed on the slickest ice, in deep snow, or on tree boughs. Spells such as grease and fumble have no effect on them. They can climb any surface, except sheer walls and cliffs, at their normal movement rate. Sheer surfaces reduce their movement by one-half.

Habitat/Society: Cantobeles prefer to live in deserted and humid climes. They are most prevalent in the Impresk and Shalane Lake areas where the waters swamp the surrounding territories. They also live in the Rebban River area in vast numbers. Elsewhere, they are rarely seen, if ever. Cantobeles mate once every three years during early spring, becoming catatonic and dying if a mate is not found within two months of their breeding time. The male cantobele bears the young and cares for them for one year. A litter numbers between four and sixteen young, but five to eight (1d4 +4) is most common.

Ecology: Many cities near Shalane Lake have placed a bounty on the cantobele in recent years as a response to alleged man-eating tendencies. Cities such as Surke pay as much as 50 gold pieces for a verified kill. There is no limit to the bounty. Because such bounties exist, many sages fear the animal will become extinct. These same sages now offer a bounty of their own. They pay 65 gold pieces per cantobele if it is captured alive, so they can be placed in more deserted locations such as the Rifhake Lake in the center of the Great Rift.


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## BOZ (Jun 28, 2005)

Some preliminary stats for the cantobele:

*Cantobele*
Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 2d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: X (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+X
Attack: 
Full Attack: 6 claws +X melee (1d4+X), bite +X melee (2d4+X), and tail slap +X melee (1d6+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake, spell-like abilities (detect thoughts and tongues constant, ice storm and misdirection 1/day)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, immunity to cold, low-light vision, can't be blinded or dazzled 
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +11
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 15 (Balance, Bluff, Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot)
Feats: 1

Environment: Any forest and marsh
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always? neutral evil
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: ---


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## Knight Otu (Jun 28, 2005)

Isn't that... why, yes, it is!


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## Knight Otu (Jun 28, 2005)

I'd like to note that my conversion was still 3.0, by the way.


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## BOZ (Jun 28, 2005)

danke!  you will be assimilated.


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## Knight Otu (Jun 28, 2005)

EEP!


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## BOZ (Jun 28, 2005)

well not you, your conversion.     is there any reason you gave a big kitty a trip attack?


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## Knight Otu (Jun 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> well not you, your conversion.     is there any reason you gave a big kitty a trip attack?



I'm sure there is, but that was two years ago. Gotta look for the flavor text...


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## Knight Otu (Jun 28, 2005)

That would be these portions, originally (ok, only the second one, as that's the version I have).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Cantobeles prefer to spring upon opponents, knocking them flat and raking and biting before the victim can rise to defend itself.
> ...
> Cantobeles prefer to spring upon opponents, knocking them flat and raking and biting before the victim can rise to protect itself. When a cantobele attempts to knock an opponent off its feet, the victim must roll a successful Dexterity check with a -4 penalty to maintain balance. If the check fails, the victim falls, and the cantobele attacks with a +4 bonus with each of its attacks.


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## BOZ (Jun 28, 2005)

the "knocking them flat" part may be debatable, but it sounds more like the good ol' pounce/improved grab/rake routine.

BTW, your custom title seems to have changed.


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## Knight Otu (Jun 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the "knocking them flat" part may be debatable, but it sounds more like the good ol' pounce/improved grab/rake routine.



I wanted to note something to that respect, too, but forgot. The knocking down, though, still sounds like trip. 


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> BTW, your custom title seems to have changed.



Yep, Brother Shatterstone worked some big and exhausting magic for us LEW Judges.


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2005)

I'd give 'em the following:

Sound Imitation (Ex): A cantobele can mimic any voice or sound it has heard, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a Will save to detect the ruse.  The save DC is X-based.

Spell-like Abilities:  At will--detect thoughts;  2/day--ice storm; 1/day--misdirection.  Caster level Xth.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Tongues (Su): A cantobele can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level Xth). This ability is always active.

Immune to dazzling -  I don't think they are immune to blindness, per se, only from bright light, which usually results in dazzling now.

Bonus on Balance checks?

Climb speed equal to land speed.  It says so.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 29, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> They have 110-foot infravision and eyes that filter out glare. Cantobeles are never blinded or dazzled by snow or bright lights. Their second eyelid continually filters out the intense light to protect their eyes.




you sure?


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2005)

Yep.  That seems to indicate that blindness from bright-light, but not from something like the blindness spell or acid being shot in its eyes.  However, I'm not opposed to simplifying it to simply immune to blindness.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 29, 2005)

we might have done something like this before.  

Immunity to Blinding (Ex): A gohlbrorn has an inner eyelid that filters light brighter than candlelight, preventing it from being blinded by magical or natural light.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2005)

Those who forget the past...

Nice recall!


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## BOZ (Jul 9, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sound Imitation (Ex): A cantobele can mimic any voice or sound it has heard, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a Will save to detect the ruse.  The save DC is X-based.




not sure why it needs this one?

and a few more bits:

Hiding in underbrush, it employs its voice in combination with its innate ability of ESP (90 yard range) and tongues. 
(I think that if tongues is going to be constant, detect thoughts should too.)

When a cantobele attempts to knock an opponent off its feet, the victim must roll a successful Dexterity check with a -4 penalty to maintain balance. If the check fails, the victim falls, and the cantobele attacks with a +4 bonus with each of its attacks. 
(maybe this is where Knight Otu got the idea that it should make Trip attacks.  Close, but maybe it should be something else?)

Their claws and six-legged gait make them sure-footed on the slickest ice, in deep snow, or on tree boughs. Spells such as grease and fumble have no effect on them. They can climb any surface, except sheer walls and cliffs, at their normal movement rate. Sheer surfaces reduce their movement by one-half.
(something similar to spider climb, but maybe as an Ex ability?)


----------



## Shade (Jul 9, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure why it needs this one?




I thought it went well with this...



			
				Dragon #89 said:
			
		

> A cantobele has a high-pitched, soft, feminine voice, and uses it effectively to lure prey and deceive hostile creatures by remaining hidden in underbrush and employing its voice in combination with its innate abilities of <I>ESP</I> (9" range) and <I>tongues</I>.






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Hiding in underbrush, it employs its voice in combination with its innate ability of ESP (90 yard range) and tongues.
> (I think that if tongues is going to be constant, detect thoughts should too.)




Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> When a cantobele attempts to knock an opponent off its feet, the victim must roll a successful Dexterity check with a -4 penalty to maintain balance. If the check fails, the victim falls, and the cantobele attacks with a +4 bonus with each of its attacks.
> (maybe this is where Knight Otu got the idea that it should make Trip attacks.  Close, but maybe it should be something else?)




I could see trip for this, or modify this...

Knock Down [Fighter, General]
Your mighty blows can knock foes off their feet.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15+
Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee with a single attack, you may make a trip attack as a free action against the same target. Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats.
Source:Sword & Fist (Corrected from errata).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Their claws and six-legged gait make them sure-footed on the slickest ice, in deep snow, or on tree boughs. Spells such as grease and fumble have no effect on them. They can climb any surface, except sheer walls and cliffs, at their normal movement rate. Sheer surfaces reduce their movement by one-half.
> (something similar to spider climb, but maybe as an Ex ability?)




Check out the wallcrawler ability we gave the gacholoth.  I think it was similar.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 10, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I thought it went well with this...




yeah, but i don't see anything there that suggests it can mimic sounds, only speech.  if you like, i can change it to:

Voice Imitation (Ex): A cantobele can mimic any voice it has heard, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a Will save to detect the ruse. The save DC is Charisma-based.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Agreed.




Spell-like Abilities: 2/day - ice storm; 1/day - misdirection. Caster level Xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
The following abilities are always active on a cantobele's person, as the spells (caster level Xth): detect thoughts, tongues. They can be dispelled, but the cantobele can reactivate them as a free action.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I could see trip for this, or modify this...
> 
> Knock Down [Fighter, General]
> Your mighty blows can knock foes off their feet.
> ...




how about if we just give it Improved Overrun and call it a day?  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Check out the wallcrawler ability we gave the gacholoth.  I think it was similar.




"Wallcrawling (Ex): The gacholoth need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it."

close...  how about:

"Super Duper Stability" (Ex): A cantobele always succeeds on Balance checks in any type of natural terrain. A cantobele always succeeds on Climb checks on any surface except sheer walls and cliffs.  Sheer and horizontal surfaces reduce a cantobele's speed by (half). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it.


----------



## Shade (Jul 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, but i don't see anything there that suggests it can mimic sounds, only speech.  if you like, i can change it to:
> 
> Voice Imitation (Ex): A cantobele can mimic any voice it has heard, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a Will save to detect the ruse. The save DC is Charisma-based.




That'll do.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Spell-like Abilities: 2/day - ice storm; 1/day - misdirection. Caster level Xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
> The following abilities are always active on a cantobele's person, as the spells (caster level Xth): detect thoughts, tongues. They can be dispelled, but the cantobele can reactivate them as a free action.




I'd keep tongues as a separate ability, like most creatures that have it always active.  Can detect thoughts be always active?  It seems that most creatures that can use some sort of detect spell all the time have it at will rather than continuous.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how about if we just give it Improved Overrun and call it a day?




I'm agreeable.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "Wallcrawling (Ex): The gacholoth need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it."
> 
> close...  how about:
> 
> "Super Duper Stability" (Ex): A cantobele always succeeds on Balance checks in any type of natural terrain. A cantobele always succeeds on Climb checks on any surface except sheer walls and cliffs.  Sheer and horizontal surfaces reduce a cantobele's speed by (half). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it.




Note the semantics change:  "need not make Climb checks" to "always succeeds on Climb checks".  The problem with this is that it will automatically be reduced in speed with the auto success.  I'd go with the former wording, and note that sheer and horizontal surfaces still reduces its speed by half.

BTW, I love that ability name.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 12, 2005)

I'll just keep the spell-likes as you wrote them originally.

  how about this now?

"Six-Legged Support/Stability" (Ex): A cantobele always succeeds on Balance checks in any type of natural terrain. A cantobele need not make Climb checks on any surface except sheer walls and cliffs. Sheer and horizontal surfaces reduce a cantobele's speed by half. It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2005)

I think that'll work.


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## BOZ (Jul 13, 2005)

did we talk about ability scores yet?


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2005)

Not as far as I can tell.   Since they are built like "great cats", I'd use them for inspiration:

Leopard (Medium):  Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Lion (Large):  Str 21, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Tiger (Large):  Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

I'm thinking Str 16, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13.


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## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

are you reflecting the fact that it has six legs in any of those stats?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

Yeah, that's why it gets decent Wisdom.    

But seriously, what affect should that have?  Higher Str?


----------



## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

*shrug*  maybe nothing at all.  probably Str if anything.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

Can you think of any monsters we can use for comparison?   When I think multilegged, the behir comes to mind, but there is no equivalent normal-legged version to compare it to.  Surely there's a six-legged horse, wolf, or tiger somewhere in the D&D universe.


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## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

looking at the basilisk and behir, i don't see any obvious benefit from having six legs.  skip it, i guess.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> looking at the basilisk and behir, i don't see any obvious benefit from having six legs.  skip it, i guess.




Ahh, but they are *unusually stable.*  That is a reward in itself.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

for skill ranks, how about 3 each in Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot?  Balance will subsist with a racial bonus, and Climb with the speed bonus.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 15, 2005)

If it helps, the displacer beast is another cat with six legs.

Thanks for the conversion!


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> for skill ranks, how about 3 each in Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot?  Balance will subsist with a racial bonus, and Climb with the speed bonus.




That works for me.

The displacer beast seems to have higher Str and Con and lower Dex than a leopard (the closest thing to a panther).  However, it is Large vs. the leopard being Medium, so the size increase would account for the ability score differentials.


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2005)

CR 2?

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +5melee, damage 1d4+1.

Caster level 6th for spell-likes?

Cantobeles are about 5 feet long and weigh about 250 pounds?


----------



## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

doh!



			
				both sources said:
			
		

> SIZE: L (7'-9' long)




i goofed!


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2005)

Whew!  They're much more fearsome as tiger-sized.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

any resultant adjustments to Str, Dex, and Con because of that?


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2005)

Yup:  I'd change it to Str 23, Dex 17, Con 16


----------



## Knight Otu (Jul 15, 2005)

Technically, 7 feet is still medium size... Not that they wouldn't be scarier at Large size... Whatever works.


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

oh wait, maybe that's why i left it at Medium in the first place... hmm...

given the base HD, maybe they are better at Medium advancing to Large...


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2005)

Fair enough.  The advancement option works for me.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 16, 2005)

updating...


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2005)

Attack: Claw +5 melee (1d4+3) 

I'd go with usually neutral evil rather than always.

A cantobele is from 7-9 feet long and can weigh 250-700 pounds.

Add save DC to detect thoughts and misdirection (both DC 13).

+8 Balance, +4 Hide?


----------



## BOZ (Jul 16, 2005)

very nice, it's just about done.

how many rake attacks should it make from a pounce, 4?  and should a regular improved grab attack (initiated by bite?) allow more than two rakes, and if so should i add a note?


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

Yeah, 4 rakes sounds about right, and improved grab should cover it.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

you're probably right.  

updating in homebrews - how does it look now?


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

It looks good to me.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 25, 2005)

OK, wow, this is so cool it's ridiculous (or is it so ridiculous it's cool?):

CREEPING PIT
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: Not applicable
MOVE: 12"
HIT DICE: See below
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 engulfment
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Engulfment, cast victims into Astral Plane
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immunity to physical and magical attacks
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Unratable
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (6' diameter, 10' deep)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VI/1000

An extremely curious and rare phenomenon, a creeping pit is created when a bag of devouring (see DRAGON® issue #89, "Ihagnim" in Creature Catalog I) is placed within a portable hole. The combination of these two magical items opens a rift to the Astral Plane, which closes in one hour. The closed rift then changes, for reasons unknown, into a creeping pit.
The creeping pit has a quasi-sentience, and it seems to stay in the general area in which it was created. The pit looks exactly like a mobile portable hole, and it is always 6' in diameter and 10' deep. It can move freely over any fairly level surface, and can travel up and down ramps (but not stairs).
Any live creature coming within 30' of the creeping pit will be "attacked" by it; the pit attempts to slide under the creature's feet, causing it to fall in. The only way to avoid falling in the pit is to jump to any available area not occupied by the pit. To see if the creature has avoided the pit, roll a 20-sided die; if the result is below or equal to that creature's dexterity, then the creature has avoided falling in. If the result is higher, the creature has fallen into the pit. There must be available floor space to which a potential victim can jump in order to even try to avoid the pit.
A creature falling into a pit will usually take 1-6 hp damage when hitting bottom, but sometimes (10%) there will be sufficient garbage at the bottom to break the fall without harm. Any victim may easily get out of the pit if the means are at hand, but that creature will then be subsequently attacked by the pit, and the victim may find himself in a new area. (The pit is always on the move and can easily slide under doors).
Creeping pits are not affected by any type of magical spell or weapon attack. The only way to affect a pit is to create another extra-dimensional hole inside it. This can be done by casting a gate within it, or by throwing a bag of holding or portable hole into the pit. This will reopen the pit's interdimensional rift, and creatures and objects within a 10' radius of the pit must make a save vs. spell or be swept into the Astral Plane. This rift will then close in one hour, the creeping pit destroyed. Creatures in the Astral Plane will not be able to use the rift to get back into the Prime Material Plane, as it is a one-way opening only.
Even if a creature cannot escape from a creeping pit, it will probably end up in the Astral Plane. For every hour that material (living or non-living) is in the pit, there is a 25% chance that it will "fade" into the Astral Plane.
Even though a creeping pit cannot be killed in the conventional sense, experience points should be awarded by the DM if characters overcome it by creating a hole within the pit as outlined above, or by filling it with some substance, making it easy to walk upon.

Dragon Magazine #101 ("Creature Catalog III," September 1985, Dan Proulx).


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jul 25, 2005)

Do you think this guy should be an ooze?


----------



## BOZ (Jul 25, 2005)

ooze might fit... if not that, then probably aberration.


----------



## Shade (Jul 25, 2005)

Ooze seems like a good fit.  I'm more confused about its Environment...Astral Plane/Extraplanar or "any land or underground"?


----------



## BOZ (Jul 25, 2005)

both simultaneously?


----------



## Shade (Jul 25, 2005)

<head explodes>


----------



## BOZ (Jul 26, 2005)

Marty, you're just not thinking fourth-dimensionally!


----------



## Shade (Aug 1, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Marty, you're just not thinking fourth-dimensionally!




 



			
				Dragon #101 said:
			
		

> Creeping pits are not affected by any type of magical spell or weapon attack. The only way to affect a pit is to create another extra-dimensional hole inside it. This can be done by casting a gate within it, or by throwing a bag of holding or portable hole into the pit. This will reopen the pit's interdimensional rift, and creatures and objects within a 10' radius of the pit must make a save vs. spell or be swept into the Astral Plane. This rift will then close in one hour, the creeping pit destroyed. Creatures in the Astral Plane will not be able to use the rift to get back into the Prime Material Plane, as it is a one-way opening only.




Something like this?

SQ:  immune to weapon damage, immunity to magic

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A creeping pit is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical effect that opens an interdimensional rift, such as a _gate_ spell, or opens a nondimensional spaces, such as a _bag of holding_, that originates within the creepint pit creates a vortex to the Astral Plane for one hour.  All creatures within a 10-foot radius of the creeping pit during this hour must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be drawn to the Astral Plane.  The item or spell creating the effect is immediately destroyed, and the creeping pit is destroyed at the end of the hour.  The save DC is X-based.


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2005)

whew, now that is mind-bending.    how to stat a creature that technically exists in two dimensions at once!  aaaiiiee!


----------



## Shade (Aug 3, 2005)

The dharculus from Planar Handbook may offer some insight...

Dualplanar (Ex): The bulk of a dharculus's body resides on the Ethereal Plane, but the monster possesses the capacity to insert or remove its mawed tentacle ends into or out of the Material Plane as a standard action. Creatures that are stuck on the Material Plane find it difficult but not impossible to target the dharculus. Because the monster is dual-planar and therefore exists partially on the Material Plane while its tentacles are inserted, its foes on the Material Plane can attack the creature as if it had cover, and so it gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class and a +2 bonus on Reflex saves. A dharculus can take a standard action to remove its tentacles from the Material Plane, allowing it to effectively retreat completely into the Ethereal Plane.


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2005)

cool!


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## BOZ (Aug 9, 2005)

how about: 

Dualplanar (Ex): The bulk of a creeping pit's body resides on the Astral Plane, but the outer edge of its opening exists on the Material Plane. Creatures that are stuck on the Material Plane find it difficult but not impossible to target the creeping pit. Because the monster is dual-planar and therefore exists partially on the Material Plane, its foes on the Material Plane can attack the creature as if it had cover, and so it gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class and a +2 bonus on Reflex saves.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2005)

Yep, that'll do it, methinks.


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## BOZ (Aug 9, 2005)

what next: ability scores?  HD?


----------



## Shade (Aug 9, 2005)

Both.  Looking at other Large oozes...

White Pudding:  9 HD, Str 15, Dex 2, Con 20, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
Creeping Stone:  6 HD, Str 18, Dex 1, Con 22, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
Shadow Jelly:  6 HD, Str 15, Dex 1, Con 18, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
Lava Ooze:  8 HD, Str 19, Dex 1, Con 24, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
Ochre Jelly: 6 HD, Str 15, Dex 1, Con 22, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1

That would put it at about CR 5-6 pefore accounting for wacky powers.

6-9 HD, Str 15-19, Dex 1-2, Con 18-24, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1


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## BOZ (Aug 9, 2005)

were we going with ooze?  i forgot, i thought it was aberration.


----------



## Shade (Aug 9, 2005)

We thought either.  But an ooze by any other name...


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## BOZ (Aug 10, 2005)

sure, this will be a rather unique ooze.    that gives it more automatic immunities anyway.

is Large appropriate?  the part that is attacking is a 6-foot wide 2-D hole in the ground.  the 10-foot deep part is on another plane (although you can interact with that part, so...)

If we do keep it at Large (it is not truly Large as a target, but its "body" is Large nonetheless, I'd go with 6-HD, and Str 17, Dex 1, and Con 20.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2005)

I'd go with Large, just because it is designed to swallow Medium sized creatures, and usually things that swallow are at least one size bigger.    

The ability scores and HD look good.


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## BOZ (Aug 11, 2005)

*slaps self on forehead*

since the SA line says "engulfment" would something like the engulf ability (modified for the circumstances, natch) work for this guy too?


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2005)

Probably.


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## BOZ (Aug 12, 2005)

Engulf (Ex): A creeping put can move into other another creature's space as a standard action, affecting as many as it can cover.  Opponents can make attacks of opportunity against the pit, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw.  Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 16 Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent's choice) as the pit moves forward.  Engulfed creatures... (effects).  The save DC is Strength-based.

Some of these bits should be incorporated into that:
"To see if the creature has avoided the pit, roll a 20-sided die; if the result is below or equal to that creature's dexterity, then the creature has avoided falling in. If the result is higher, the creature has fallen into the pit. There must be available floor space to which a potential victim can jump in order to even try to avoid the pit.
A creature falling into a pit will usually take 1-6 hp damage when hitting bottom, but sometimes (10%) there will be sufficient garbage at the bottom to break the fall without harm. Any victim may easily get out of the pit if the means are at hand, but that creature will then be subsequently attacked by the pit, and the victim may find himself in a new area. (The pit is always on the move and can easily slide under doors)."


also, it definitely needs a Hide bonus in darker environments, since it is black.


----------



## Shade (Aug 22, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Engulf (Ex): A creeping put can move into other another creature's space as a standard action, affecting as many as it can cover.  Opponents can make attacks of opportunity against the pit, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw.  Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 16 Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent's choice) as the pit moves forward.  Engulfed creatures... (effects).  The save DC is Strength-based.




Looks good so far.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Some of these bits should be incorporated into that:
> "To see if the creature has avoided the pit, roll a 20-sided die; if the result is below or equal to that creature's dexterity, then the creature has avoided falling in. If the result is higher, the creature has fallen into the pit. There must be available floor space to which a potential victim can jump in order to even try to avoid the pit.




Isn't that what the Reflex save is for?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A creature falling into a pit will usually take 1-6 hp damage when hitting bottom, but sometimes (10%) there will be sufficient garbage at the bottom to break the fall without harm. Any victim may easily get out of the pit if the means are at hand, but that creature will then be subsequently attacked by the pit, and the victim may find himself in a new area. (The pit is always on the move and can easily slide under doors)."




Hmmm...engulfed creature takes 1d6 points of falling damage, plus an additional 1d6 per size category increase of the pit?  Garbage bit as flavor text?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> also, it definitely needs a Hide bonus in darker environments, since it is black.




Absolutely!  At least +8.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 22, 2005)

"Engulfed creatures take 1d6 points of falling damage for every size category the pit is above Medium." ?

how to phrase the hide bonus?

Skills: * A creeping pit has a +X bonus on Hide checks made in areas...


should we give it a touch attack, or just no attack besides the engulf?  for the engulf, i guess we should state that flying and incorporeal creatures are immune to it.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2005)

The shadow has...

*A shadow gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination. In brightly lit areas, it takes a –4 penalty on Hide checks.

I don't think it needs an attack other than engulf.


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## BOZ (Aug 22, 2005)

with a Dex and size penalty, i think it also needs an overall Hide bonus.  it is 2-D after all.  


"Even if a creature cannot escape from a creeping pit, it will probably end up in the Astral Plane. For every hour that material (living or non-living) is in the pit, there is a 25% chance that it will "fade" into the Astral Plane."

This should be written up as an attack, I think.


I think the following ability needs to be split up, maybe that second paragraph part of the above ability as well.  It should be stated that the rift is one-way and does not allow characters to return through it.  Also that first sentence in the second paragraph is a bit clunky.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A creeping pit is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical effect that opens an interdimensional rift, such as a gate spell, or opens a nondimensional spaces, such as a bag of holding, that originates within the creeping pit creates a vortex to the Astral Plane for one hour. All creatures within a 10-foot radius of the creeping pit during this hour must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be drawn to the Astral Plane. The item or spell creating the effect is immediately destroyed, and the creeping pit is destroyed at the end of the hour. The save DC is X-based.


----------



## Shade (Aug 24, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> with a Dex and size penalty, i think it also needs an overall Hide bonus.  it is 2-D after all.




Agreed.  +8?




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "Even if a creature cannot escape from a creeping pit, it will probably end up in the Astral Plane. For every hour that material (living or non-living) is in the pit, there is a 25% chance that it will "fade" into the Astral Plane."
> 
> This should be written up as an attack, I think.




There's this for potential inspiration...

Portal (Su): Lining the lowest part of the fiendwurm's gizzard is a portal to the Abyss that is activated by the presence of a living creature. A swallowed creature must make a Reflex save (DC 31) each round to avoid falling into or being squeezed through the portal. The Abyssal side of the portal is stationary, but the other side moves with the fiendwurm. If this portal is permanently closed, the fiendwurm instantly dies but does not implode. The save DC is Constitution-based.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I think the following ability needs to be split up, maybe that second paragraph part of the above ability as well.  It should be stated that the rift is one-way and does not allow characters to return through it.  Also that first sentence in the second paragraph is a bit clunky.
> 
> Immunity to Magic (Ex): A creeping pit is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.
> 
> A magical effect that opens an interdimensional rift, such as a gate spell, or opens a nondimensional spaces, such as a bag of holding, that originates within the creeping pit creates a vortex to the Astral Plane for one hour. All creatures within a 10-foot radius of the creeping pit during this hour must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be drawn to the Astral Plane. The item or spell creating the effect is immediately destroyed, and the creeping pit is destroyed at the end of the hour. The save DC is X-based.




How's this?

Astral Vortex (Su):  Certain magical effects that originate within the creeping pit create a vortex to the Astral Plane for one hour.  Such effects include those that open an interdimensional rift, such as a gate spell, or that open a nondimensional space, such as a bag of holding. All creatures within a 10-foot radius of the creeping pit during this hour must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be drawn to the Astral Plane. The item or spell creating the effect is immediately destroyed, and the creeping pit is destroyed at the end of the hour. The save DC is X-based


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## BOZ (Aug 24, 2005)

the Hide check would still be a -1, but i guess that's the best we can do for it.  except maybe increasing the darkness bonus and removing the penalty.


----------



## Shade (Aug 26, 2005)

Alternatively, modify this from the G-cube:

Transparent (Ex): Gelatinous cubes are hard to see, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a DC 15 Spot check to notice one. Creatures who fail to notice a cube and walk into it are automatically engulfed.

Perhaps...

Two-Dimensional (Ex): Creeping pits are hard to see, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a DC 15 Spot check to notice one. Creatures who fail to notice a pit and walk into it are automatically engulfed.  In conditions of poor illumination, the DC rises to 20.


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## BOZ (Aug 26, 2005)

that should work!  

do we omit the Hide skill stuff then and just use this?


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> do we omit the Hide skill stuff then and just use this?




We probably can, since that seems to be the norm.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 23, 2005)

OK, i like that ability just fine then.


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## BOZ (Sep 23, 2005)

Astral Dump (Su): For every hour that a creeping pit has anything inside of it, there is a 25% chance that all of its contents will be transported to the Astral Plane.

Or we could say that living creatures must make a Fort or Will save, with the DC being appropriately hard enough that the average character of the appropriate level for this CR of a creature will fail about 25% of the time.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Sep 24, 2005)

Hey Boz, I checked out what you got done on this creature, but don't oozes have 10-sided hit dice?


----------



## BOZ (Sep 25, 2005)

correct!    my bad.

how is the above ability?


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2005)

I'd prefer the saving throws to the percentage chance.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got an astral dump brewing.


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## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

ewwww...

Astral Vortex (Su): Once per hour, the contects of a creeping pit are transported to the Astral Plane.  Creatures must succeed on a DC X Fort/Will save or be transported as well.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Or we could say that living creatures must make a Fort or Will save, with the DC being appropriately hard enough that the average character of the appropriate level for this CR of a creature will fail about 25% of the time.




ideas?


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2005)

Well, the closest ability I can find is the fiendwurm's portal...

Portal (Su): Lining the lowest part of the fiendwurm's gizzard is a portal to the Abyss that is activated by the presence of a living creature. A swallowed creature must make a Reflex save (DC 31) each round to avoid falling into or being squeezed through the portal. The Abyssal side of the portal is stationary, but the other side moves with the fiendwurm. If this portal is permanently closed, the fiendwurm instantly dies but does not implode. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

oh right, i even remember you posting that before.

well, we could go ahead and make it Con-based, since i doubt anything else makes more sense.    that would be DC 18.

i don't know about Reflex save though, since the fiendwurm has only a portion of it as a portal, you can jump out of the way.  with the creeping pit, if you are in the pit you go away.    left my PHB at gaming last week (GRRRRR!), but doesn't plane shift have a saving throw?


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2005)

Plane shift is will negates.

Since engulfed considers 'em grappled, how about a successful grapple check to avoid expulsion?


----------



## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

i don't know that i like thinking of creatures in a creeping pit as grappled.


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2005)

Then I'd go with the Reflex save like the fiendwurm.  Will doesn't make any sense, and Fort makes less sense than Reflex for "avoiding ejection".


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## BOZ (Sep 28, 2005)

ejection?  you mean being shunted to another plane... someone would have to have awfully nice reflexes to be able to jump from out of a 10-foot hole when the whole thing is teleporting its contents away.


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## BOZ (Sep 28, 2005)

I need to address something that I probably should have brought up before.  

Creatures that fall into a creeping pit, either because they were attacked by it or because they could not see it, are not grappled.  They simply fall in, as the pit itself is just like any other hole in the ground (except that it moves).  I intended to mention that we needed to put a note in there about how to escape (a DC 15 Climb or Jump check, perhaps) but I kept forgetting.    if this means that the attack should not be called Engulf for reasons of clarity, then we need to call it something else.

Therefore, since there isn't really anything holding a victim in there except gravity, and possibly injury, it's relatively easy to escape.  Of course, anyone escaping will be attacked again, but that is beside the point.  The idea is to get away (if you can) before the hourly astral portal comes up again.  If you are stuck being unable to get out of the pit for long enough to be unable to avoid the teleport, that is a shame.  If you've been trying unsuccessfully for several minutes to get out of a 10-foot deep pit, I don't think that you will suddenly gain enough leaping ability to jump out when the saving throw comes along.  

Therefore, I have to say that I think Reflex is the least sensible of the three.  Since the effect of being sent to the astral plane is a teleportation effect, like plane shift, I think a Will save like what plane shift has makes the most sense to avoid being pulled along by the magic.  Fortitude, by process of elimination alone, would be the second-best choice.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2005)

Well, when you put it like that...    

Yeah, Will save makes the most sense.


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## BOZ (Sep 29, 2005)

now, for the astral votex power, which occurs when the creepit pit dies and sucks in everything within 10 feet, Reflex is still the best because one only needs to get out of that radius to be safe.  everything inside the pit at that point would be sucked into the Astral with no save at all.

updating in homebrews...



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I intended to mention that we needed to put a note in there about how to escape (a DC 15 Climb or Jump check, perhaps) but I kept forgetting.  if this means that the attack should not be called Engulf for reasons of clarity, then we need to call it something else.




oh yeah, that's right!


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2005)

Let's rename "engulf" to "entrap" or something else to avoid confusion with the usual ability.

A DC 15 climb check makes sense.  In order to Jump 10 feet up, however, the DC would be 40.


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## BOZ (Sep 30, 2005)

Sounds good.  Updating in homebrews again.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2005)

Add "ooze traits" to SQ line.

CR:  A 20-ft. pit trap is CR 1.  This critter expels you onto the Astral Plane, so that's worth a few CRs.  It's about comparable in power to the summoning ooze, which is CR 4.  I'd recommend CR 4.

Astral Vortex:  I'd go Con-based, making the DC 18.


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## BOZ (Sep 30, 2005)

updated again; finito?


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2005)

I think so, except for one thing (which we may have already covered).  Should it have the Extraplanar subtype?


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## BOZ (Sep 30, 2005)

as if you were reading my mind; i was just thinking that.    if the dharculus has it, maybe the creeping pit should too?  it does not have extraplanar origins (at least, not any more than a portable hole does), but the bulk of it exists only on the Astral.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2005)

The dharculus does, so yeah.


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## BOZ (Sep 30, 2005)

cool, updating one more time then.  we ?


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2005)

I believe we are  .


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## BOZ (Oct 3, 2005)

yay!    any requests?


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 4, 2005)

I'd like to see the tybor (#61) converted.


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2005)

Incubus (#54)
Necroton (#42)


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## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

shall i roll a die?    1-2 is tybor, 3-4 incubus, 5-6 necroton?


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2005)

I'm fine with in order received (tybor first).


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## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

OK, will do.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 4, 2005)

Thanks! I wouldn't mind seeing the necroton converted either.


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## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

one at a time.    should be able to start it tonight or tomorrow (we'll see).


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## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

or, right now!  

Tybor
Created by Jeff Brandt

FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVE: 48”
HIT DICE: 10
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: I, S, T
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8/2-8/3-18
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
INTELLIGENCE: Genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (6-7’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The tybor are a race of flightless birds that, when running at maximum speed, seem to “float” above the ground without touching it. Males are never encountered, and females are always solitary. 
The tybor attacks physically with its two claws and a beak slash. Its magically sharp beak is +3 to hit. However, it prefers to use its spell-casting ability in combat (or to avoid combat) whenever possible. Tybor are able to employ magic-user spells at the 20th level of ability. They can use nine 1st-level spells, eight 2nd-level spells, seven of the 3rd level, six of the 4th, five of the 5th, four of the 6th, three of the 7th, two of the 8th, and one of the 9th level during any given day. (Spells should be determined randomly by the DM for each individual creature.) In addition to these spells, the tybor can cast both Haste and Slow spells (no saving throw for either type) four times a day.
It is rumored that the feathers of the tybor are magical in nature, but only if plucked from a live creature. (DMs are encouraged to make some of the feathers small magical tokens; for instance, a feather might grant the owner the ability to use a Haste spell 3 times a week without the aging side-effect. But not all feathers from a single bird should be magical.)
The tybor have their own language, but never use it in communication with other creatures. They know the tongues of all birds and flying reptiles, and have a limited form of telepathy whereby they can communicate with most humanoids.
If the tybor is encountered in her lair, there is a 60% chance there will be 1-3 eggs (worth 7,000 gp apiece on the open market) in the nest. The tybor will let no one near the eggs, defending the nest until death.
The tybor has a purple crown and tail. The majority of the body feathers are orange with a sprinkling of green. The head is blue with red around the edges and a bridge of green above the beak.


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## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

some preliminary stats for the tybor:

*Tybor*
Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 10d10+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 120 ft (24 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+X
Attack: Claw +X melee (2d4+17) 
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (2d4+X) and beak slash +X melee (3d6+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: spells
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, spell resistance X, telepathy X ft
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 18, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 
Feats: 

Environment: 
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: 10% coins; 50% goods; standard items
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Medium); 21-30 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +X?


A tybor is 6-7 feet tall, and weighs about X pounds.

Tybors speak their own language

COMBAT


Originally found in Dragon Magazine #61 ("Dragon's Bestiary," May 1982, Jeff Brandt).



We have a spellcasting birdie!  Very interesting.    do we want to have it as a wizard or sorcerer?


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2005)

Fun!  I'd go with sorcerer...it's hard to lug around a spellbook and turn the pages when you're a flightless bird.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 10, 2005)

I'm glad you like my picks! Looking at this guy we should probably add:

      Spell-Like Abilities: 4x/day: haste, slow (DC X).  Caster level 20th? The save DCs are charisma based.


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## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

that's about right.  let's get into the other stuff that makes this guy up.

first of all, how about its environment?  the text doesn't state anything clearly (but 1E critters often did not).  what sort of environment would flightless birds be found in?  ostriches and such?

breaking it down:

"The tybor are a race of flightless birds that, when running at maximum speed, seem to “float” above the ground without touching it."

is there any use for this other than unusual flavor text?

"The tybor attacks physically with its two claws and a beak slash. Its magically sharp beak is +3 to hit."

for that +3 to hit, that would be similar to, say, a unicorn's horn right?

"However, it prefers to use its spell-casting ability in combat (or to avoid combat) whenever possible. Tybor are able to employ magic-user spells at the 20th level of ability. They can use nine 1st-level spells, eight 2nd-level spells, seven of the 3rd level, six of the 4th, five of the 5th, four of the 6th, three of the 7th, two of the 8th, and one of the 9th level during any given day. (Spells should be determined randomly by the DM for each individual creature.)"

fairly clearly arcane spellcasting, as a 20th-level caster, and as we agreed on above should be a sorcerer.

"In addition to these spells, the tybor can cast both Haste and Slow spells (no saving throw for either type) four times a day."

covered by what GrayLinnorm said.

"It is rumored that the feathers of the tybor are magical in nature, but only if plucked from a live creature. (DMs are encouraged to make some of the feathers small magical tokens; for instance, a feather might grant the owner the ability to use a Haste spell 3 times a week without the aging side-effect. But not all feathers from a single bird should be magical.)"

sort of a magic item then?

"The tybor have their own language, but never use it in communication with other creatures. They know the tongues of all birds and flying reptiles, and have a limited form of telepathy whereby they can communicate with most humanoids."

what bird/reptile langauges should we know about?


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> first of all, how about its environment?  the text doesn't state anything clearly (but 1E critters often did not).  what sort of environment would flightless birds be found in?  ostriches and such?




Temperate and warm plains seems likely.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "The tybor are a race of flightless birds that, when running at maximum speed, seem to “float” above the ground without touching it."
> 
> is there any use for this other than unusual flavor text?




It would help if the surface were hot, sharp, etc.  It might be worthy of an ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "The tybor attacks physically with its two claws and a beak slash. Its magically sharp beak is +3 to hit."
> 
> for that +3 to hit, that would be similar to, say, a unicorn's horn right?




Good call.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "However, it prefers to use its spell-casting ability in combat (or to avoid combat) whenever possible. Tybor are able to employ magic-user spells at the 20th level of ability. They can use nine 1st-level spells, eight 2nd-level spells, seven of the 3rd level, six of the 4th, five of the 5th, four of the 6th, three of the 7th, two of the 8th, and one of the 9th level during any given day. (Spells should be determined randomly by the DM for each individual creature.)"
> 
> fairly clearly arcane spellcasting, as a 20th-level caster, and as we agreed on above should be a sorcerer.
> 
> ...




True all that.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "It is rumored that the feathers of the tybor are magical in nature, but only if plucked from a live creature. (DMs are encouraged to make some of the feathers small magical tokens; for instance, a feather might grant the owner the ability to use a Haste spell 3 times a week without the aging side-effect. But not all feathers from a single bird should be magical.)"
> 
> sort of a magic item then?




Yep, sounds like a "sidebar".  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "The tybor have their own language, but never use it in communication with other creatures. They know the tongues of all birds and flying reptiles, and have a limited form of telepathy whereby they can communicate with most humanoids."
> 
> what bird/reptile langauges should we know about?




Probably Auran, possibly Draconic, speak with animals limited to birds and reptiles, telepathy X feet.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 11, 2005)

A thought just crossed my mind.  If the tybor's beak is equal to a magic weapon, do you think it should overcome some form of damage reduction?


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

well, Dr/magic at least.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It would help if the surface were hot, sharp, etc. It might be worthy of an ability.




yeah, that should work.    it would be an Ex ability, and would probably last one round, if the tybor moves as a full-round action.  that should allow it to cross a stream as well, i think.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 11, 2005)

If the tybor casts spells as a sorceror, its Charisma should be at least 19.  It should also have a really high Dexterity too.

Comparable abilities for other flightless birds:

Clubnek: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12

Axebeak: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15

Terror Bird: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 15


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

it does look like it will need a high Dex.


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

Here's how the unicorn handles a magic body part.  This is tacked on to the Combat description:  "The horn is a +3 magic weapon, though its power fades if removed from the unicorn."   Overcoming DR/magic is implied in this case.

How's this for staterts?

"Speed Glide" (Ex):  When moving its full base land speed, a tybor floats several inches off the ground.  This allows the tybor to move unhindered through slick or dangerous terrain.  The tybor may even run over the surface of water.  This ability lasts while the tybor continues to move at its full base land speed and for 1 round thereafter.

Based on what GrayLinnor posted for the stats, I like:  Str 14, Dex 18+, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 18-19, Cha 19.


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

that is a good start.  they probably need something like the running start that you get with a jump check.


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

That's implied, since you need to move 20 feet for a running jump, and its speed is way more than 20 feet.


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

yeah, but if it starts its turn, say, standing at the edge of a pack of quicksand, its first step would be disastrous.  i think it should need a running start, and i'm not entirely certain about that "and for one round after" part - i think it needs to be done every round.  sort of a bounce-bounce-bounce movement since it is not actual flight or even jumping.


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

I'm fine with all that.


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

so then you agree that a running start is a good idea?   if so, how to implement that?


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

I agree.

"All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled."

"Speed Glide" (Ex): When moving its full base land speed, a tybor floats several inches off the ground. This allows the tybor to move unhindered through slick or dangerous terrain. The tybor may even run over the surface of water. This ability lasts as long as the tybor continues to move at its full base land speed.  A tybor must move at least 20 feet in a straight line before it begins to float.


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

lookin good!  posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

This conversion is moving as fast as the tybor itself.    

MR was 50% which equates to 11 + CR nowadays.

Telepathy the standard 100 ft.?

Skill Ranks:  Concentration 13, Hide 6, Knowledge (arcana) 13, Listen 7, Move Silently 6, Spellcraft 13, Spot 7, Tumble 13

+36 speed modifier to Jump.

Feats:  Dodge, Eschew Material Components, Spell Focus (pick a school that seems to apply), Still Spell.


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

don't you think it's better to move faster than to take a few months to finish one?  

i'll write up some flavor text, and then we can look at what spells we should give as a sample.


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

Absolutely!

The spells are the toughest (or easiest, depending on your perspective), as the old text gave no sort of text about what kind of spells it prefers.


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

well, we can reason it out.  updated - go have a look and jot down some ideas and we will discuss.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

Hmmm...it sounds like the tybor just wants to live its life.  It generally only fights to defend itself.  It would probably use magic to enhance its life, rather than make it an offensive powerhouse.   

These guys could probably use a bit of expansion to their flavor text.   What do they eat?  If they're carnivorous, they'd probably go for spells like hold monster, etc. to make it easier to acquire prey.

Since they tend to avoid fights, I'd think spells like invisibility, displacement, etc. would be quite beneficial.


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

you've got some points so far.  i think they would need some offensive spells too, but more still to drive their enemies away than to just deal damage.  fireball would work, for example.

according to the MC11, other flightless birds (ostrich, emu) are herbivores, but hold monster is still a good idea (freeze them and run!)


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

Herbivores works for me.  Since these fellas are so smart, but are still basically birds, perhaps they could have the added hook of "looking out for their less mentally gifted brethren"?  They can already speak with other birds, so maybe add some spells to help protect 'em?


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

that works fine for me.    will add some text to that effect to make them more interesting.


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

any other spell-related ideas, or should we work more on the creature itself first?


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

Since they have such colorful plumage, I incorporated many prismatic spells.    

Spells: A tybor can cast arcane spells as a 20th-level sorcerer (6/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/6; save DC 14 + spell level). Typical Spells Known: 
0 - dancing lights, daze, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, mage hand, light, prestidigitation, read magic; 
1st - color spray, feather fall, grease, mage armor, obscuring mist; 
2nd - detect thoughts, glitterdust, mirror image, resist energy, shatter; 
3rd - displacement, lightning bolt, nondetection, protection from energy; 
4th - confustion, greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain, rainbow pattern; 
5th - animal growth, baleful polymorph, hold monster, mirage arcana; 
6th - greater dispel magic, mislead, repulsion; 
7th - greater teleport, mass invisibility, prismatic spray; 
8th - antipathy, maze, prismatic wall; 
9th - foresight, mass hold monster, prismatic sphere.
The save DCs are Charisma-based


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

LOL, ok.  

updating...


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

Weight:  300 lbs.?  (Googled ostriches and this seems to be in the middle of the listed ranges).

Caster level 10th for spell-likes?

LA:  +5
+1 for unbalanced ability scores
+2 for nat armor greater than +5
+1 for casting spells at a caster level higher than its Hit Dice
+1 for spell resistance


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

how are skills and feats based on your original estimations?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

Let's see...

Skills: Balance +6, Concentration +15, Hide +10, Jump +40, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Listen +11, Move Silently +10, Spellcraft +19, Spot +11, Tumble +17

Feats: Dodge, Eschew Material Components, Spell Focus (Illusion?), Still Spell

Still Spell spell might not be that helpful...perhaps Spell Penetration instead?


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

spell pen seems fine - undoubtely, sometimes powerful magic creatures will hunt a tybor, maybe looking for a powerful magical challenge, or its feathers.


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## Orius (Oct 13, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> don't you think it's better to move faster than to take a few months to finish one?




Oh definitely.  I remember how long the rakasta conversion took.  A quicker pace is much more efficient.


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

the rakasta conversion took time because there was a lot of disagreement on creature type, mostly.


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## Orius (Oct 13, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the rakasta conversion took time because there was a lot of disagreement on creature type, mostly.




Mmm, to me it seemed that it was a very very popular monster, and everyone had their ideas of how it should be done.  The rakasta had far more input than any other conversion I've seen so far.


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

i agree!


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

Ditto.


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

updating... what's left?  CR?  should be higher than HD, due to the big spellcasting powers.  10-13?  i don't feel it's anywhere near an epic challenge though, as it doesn't have much else.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

Change "save DC 14 + spell level" in spells prepared to "save DC 14 + spell level or 15 + spell level for illusion spells)"

As for CR, we can look at it one of two ways:

1.)  If it were a 20th-level human wizard, it would be CR 20, right?  At least CR 17 for the minimum caster level to cast 9th-level spells.
2.)  If we were to just determine the CR for the tybor without its spellcasting ability, and then add wizard levels as non-associated class levels, what would it give us?
3.)  Find another critter with 20th-level spellcasting ability that isn't CR 20+.


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

should we seek an outside opinion?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

Probably not, as it will result in 20 responses of "in my campaign...", followed by 10 more about how the CR system doesn't work, then another 10 stating that you shouldn't use CR (or XPs for that matter), and 5 stating that monsters shouldn't have stats at all, just be flavor text, and 2 people suggesting we switch to True20 or Castles & Crusades.    

(I know..."bitter much?" is headed my way).


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

heh, don't take it so heavy, man!    buck up soldier, you got a job to do!  just remember, don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes!  

i'm going in, cover me!


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

I've got your back...but be warned, I haven't taken Precise Shot.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

I found a critter whose sorcerer caster level equals its HD...the phaerimm!

Hatchling = 1 HD = CR 1
Juvenile = 4 HD = CR 5
Young Adult = 7 HD = CR 9
Adult = 10 HD = CR 12
Mature Adult = 13 HD = CR 15
Elder = 16 HD = CR 18
Revered Elder = 19 HD = CR 21

And duh...of course...dragons!

Planetars cast as 17th-level clerics, but are only CR 16.  There's no way the tybor remotely approaches the power of a planetar.


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

nope, not even close.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

OK, hopping between two threads now...

CR 13-14 then?


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

we can let the other die, since it accomplished its point.  yes, 13-14 - do we have any other creatures to compare to?

Cr 13 has beholder, ghaele eladrin, glabrezu demon, storm giant, iron golem, gelugon devil, minimum for lich, and death slaad (among others, natch).

CR 14 has trumpet archon, astral deva, nalfeshnee demon.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

With its potential spell list, it could compete with the nalfeshnee in sheer damage output.  On the other hand, I don't really see it as more deadly than a beholder, which can bring all its eyes to bear in a single round.   I'm leaning towards 13...


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

as am i.  i could actually see going 12, but i think 13 would be a safe compromise.  agreement?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

Sold!


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

I fixed a few things, such as the DC for slow, the SR (CR +11), added to the combat text, and for the beak attack bonus, I forgot that it was a +3 weapon.  

Updating; how are we now?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

I think we have our #10.


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

wunderbar!  i am taking vacation from conversions for a day or two or whatever, and i will post our newest batch in... i don't want to say how many months.


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## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

just tossing this out there for ya...

Incubus
Created by Craig Stenseth 
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVE: 15"/21"
HIT DICE: 8
% IN LAIR: 15%
TREASURE TYPE: Q, U
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8/2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
SIZE: M (6?-7? tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 130
Attack/Defense Modes: D/G

These very rare demons are the male counterparts of the succubi. Lower intelligence makes them weaker spell-users, but they are much more deadly in melee. Any opponent struck by an incubus? claw receives the stated damage and loses a life energy level, this being reflected in spell use, combat ability, etc.
incubi can Cause Darkness in a 5? radius and Teleport with no error (as any demon can). They can also become ethereal and shapechange (to a humanoid form of approximate size and weight). They have superior infravision, with a range of 90?. An incubus can attempt to gate in a Type IV (80% chance) or a Type VI (20% chance) demon, but the probability of the gate opening is only 25%.
Incubi have an average strength of about 18/70, but this never gives them any special ?to hit? or damage bonuses in melee. They are quicker and far more agile than the succubi. Incubi and succubi are very rarely encountered in a mixed pair, since succubi sometimes wish to have their spell abilities backed up by physical might. Any time a succubus is indicated on an encounter table, roll d%: 01?65 = succubus; 66 ? 00 = incubus. The proposed experience-point value for an incubus is 2,275 +10/hp. This can, of course, be altered to suit the DM?s campaign.
Description: Incubi in natural form appear very much like largish human males with these differences: Small horns project from the sides of the forehead; they have a large pair of bat-like wings extending from their back, and their hands are typically clawed; they usually dress in fairly expensive-looking clothes, and don?t usually use weapons.


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## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

the incubus' powers should be compared to the sucubus' 1E powers, since some things have changed.  for example, no psionics for demons in "official" books, so none for inky either.

some preliminary stats for the incubus:

*Incubus*
Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil, Tanar'ri)
Hit Dice: 8d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares), fly 60 ft (average)
Armor Class: 22 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+13
Attack: Claw +13 melee (2d4+5 plus energy drain)
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (2d4+5 plus energy drain)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: energy drain, spell-like abilities, summon tanar'ri
Special Qualities: damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 90 ft, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance X, telepathy 100 ft, tongues
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str 20, Dex (14+), Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 3

Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary or pair (1 incubus and 1 succubus)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: +X

An incubus is 6-7 feet tall, and weighs about X pounds.

COMBAT

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #54 ("Dragon's Bestiary," October 1981, Craig Stenseth).


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

An incubus is 6-7 feet tall in its natural form and weighs about 175-200 pounds.

Incubi speak Abyssal, Celestial, and Draconic.

An incubus’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by an incubus's claw attack gain one negative level. The DC is X for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. 

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), polymorph (humanoid form only, no limit on duration). Caster level X (succubus is 12th). The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Succubus also has charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, suggestion.

Other succubus abilities that might be applicable...

Tongues (Su): A succubus has a permanent tongues ability (as the spell, caster level 12th). Succubi usually use verbal communication with mortals.

Skills: Succubi have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.

*While using her alter self ability, a succubus gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> An incubus can attempt to gate in a Type IV (80% chance) or a Type VI (20% chance) demon, but the probability of the gate opening is only 25%.




This will be the biggest challenge.  The succubus was extremely nerfed with this ability, no longer able to get a balor and only able to get a vrock with 20% success.  The incubus could get a nalfeshnee or balor.  Should we limit this to something less powerful, like a hezrou?  Or stick with the nalfeshnee but give it a very low success rate?   I'd definitely drop the balor.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

I'm assuming we'll want to keep it pretty close to the succubus in CR.   Here are ability scores of demons in that range to help fill in the blanks:

Succubus: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26
Vrock: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16
Palrethee: Str 19, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 11
Maurezhi: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 17
Zovvut: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 14

So, I'm thinking...

Str 20, Dex 15-16, Con 14-16, Int 10, Wis 12-14, Cha 20-24


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

This conversion should be a relatively quick one.

I'd make the caster level lower than that of a succubus.  Perhaps CL=HD?

How about Str 20, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 21?


For comparison, a 1E succubus (off which this incubus was based), had, at will: darkness 5' radius, become ethereal, charm person, ESP (aka detect thoughts), clairaudience, suggestion, shape change (any humanoid form), gate a type IV (aka nalfeshnee 70% chance), type VI (aka balor 25%) or one of the lords or princes (5%), with a 40% chance of success.

A 3.5 succubus has at will: charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds), polymorph (humanoid only), suggestion, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds).  She now only summons a vrock, with only a 30% chance of success (way nerfed!)

So, darkness was removed, charm person changed to charm monster, detect good added, clairaudience removed, shape change altered to polymorph, and the same changes should apply to the incubus.

Therefore:
Spell-Like Abilities: At will – detect good, ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), polymorph (humanoid form only, no limit on duration). Caster level Xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Charm, detect thoughts/ESP, and suggestion were unique to the succubus, so the incubus should not get them now.  However, I like the idea of giving them the Tongues spell, as well as those skill bonuses.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> This will be the biggest challenge. The succubus was extremely nerfed with this ability, no longer able to get a balor and only able to get a vrock with 20% success. The incubus could get a nalfeshnee or balor. Should we limit this to something less powerful, like a hezrou? Or stick with the nalfeshnee but give it a very low success rate? I'd definitely drop the balor.




The incubus had a less powerful version of this ability (could not summon a prince, only 25% chance of success as opposed to the 1E succubus' 40%).  I'd say therefore, we might want to cut him all the way down to a vrock, with no more than a 25% chance of success.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

All that sounds doable.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

so...?:

Summon Tanar'ri (Sp): Once per day, an incubus can attempt to summon 1 vrock with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd?-level spell.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Yessir.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

cool - posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

As a demon, CR = 8 + CR (once we determine that).

Succubus has the following skill ranks: Bluff 15, Concentration 9, Diplomacy 2, Disguise 9, Escape Artist 9, Hide 9, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (any one) 9, Listen 9, Move Silently 9, Search 9, Spot 9

Incy would probably select many of the same.

For feats, Succy has Dodge, Mobility, Persuasive.  Incy might differ, might not.

I don't see any reason the LA should differ from Succy (+6).


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

i could definitely see keeping Persuasive.  Dodge and Mobility are not bad feats, but incubus is definitely more geared towards combat than the succubus.

for skills, you're probably right.  while incy has more HD, it has less Int, so he gets less skill ranks.  how about Bluff 12, Concentration 7, Disguise 8, Escape Artist 7, Hide 8, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (any one) 8, Listen 8, Move Silently 7, Search 8, Spot 8

the LA might be less because he has less in the way of SLAs?

for CR, do we want to make him the same as succubus, give or take 1 CR?


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i could definitely see keeping Persuasive.  Dodge and Mobility are not bad feats, but incubus is definitely more geared towards combat than the succubus.




How about Weapon Focus and Improved Critical (claw)?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> for skills, you're probably right.  while incy has more HD, it has less Int, so he gets less skill ranks.  how about Bluff 12, Concentration 7, Disguise 8, Escape Artist 7, Hide 8, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (any one) 8, Listen 8, Move Silently 7, Search 8, Spot 8




That'll work.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the LA might be less because he has less in the way of SLAs?




Probably not.  It's mainly having "at will" SLAs that account for that portion of the LA.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> for CR, do we want to make him the same as succubus, give or take 1 CR?




Probably.  He has 2 more HD, which would increase CR by 1 if we were advancing a succubi.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

about about Weapon Focus and Power Attack?  

CR 8 then?


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Yes to all.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

wow, two speedy conversions in a row in the same thread!  

updating...


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

It needs CR (8), SR (16), caster level for SLAs (8), and DC for energy drain (16).


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Oh, and +4 size bonus on Jump checks (Jump +9).


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## Knight Otu (Oct 17, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Oh, and +4 size bonus on Jump checks (Jump +9).



Speed bonus, not size bonus.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Yeah, what my devoted defender said.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

OK then!  updating in homebrews... any remaining issues there?


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Not that I can see.  It looks fit for print to me.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

excellent!  adding some flavor text from PSMC1...


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

It still looks good.


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

and here's the last request i remember seeing:

Necroton
Created by Phil Meyers
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3/-1
MOVE: 12?
HIT DICE: 40,45,50,55 or 60 hit points (8-12 dice)
% IN LAIR: 0%
TREASURE TYPE: F
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2- 12/2- 12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Eyebeams
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit; see below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral or Neutral (evil)
SIZE: L (4?-6? diameter)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

A greedy wizard is said to have designed the first Necroton. There can be no doubt that this is the case, for the appearance of the metal-bodied Necroton is convincing proof of its artificial origin. At first glance this creature appears to be some sort of giant crab. Its large, oval-shaped metallic body and multiple sets of legs give this impression, as do its two forepincers. However, its luminous central eye marks it as something quite more than this.
The Necroton is a golem-like creature created by a Neutral or Evil Magic-User using the following spells: Wish, Polymorph Any Object, Wizard Eye, Geas, Hold Monster, Fireball, and Detect Magic. The cost and construction time is the same as that required for iron golems.
A Necroton?s purpose is to gather treasure for its creator, and to this end it can be employed in two ways. First, if the creator has a specific target in mind, the actions of the creature can be directed by the creator. This can be done by normal verbal commands or by means of a Message spell. In either case the creator must accompany the Necroton personally, for it will not heed instructions from anyone else. If the creator owns a Crystal Ball a special form of direct control is possible. The crystal ball enables the creator to see what the Necroton sees and allows the transmission of commands from afar by means of a message spell. When used in this fashion there is no range limitation to the message spell, and intervening objects other than lead will not block the transmission.
A creating wizard who has better things to do may elect to send the creature out on its own without direct guidance. In this case the creator gives the creature a simple set of instructions at the outset of its mission. Thereafter the Necroton will unquestioningly obey these orders until they are countermanded by the creator.
A Necroton prefers to attack by means of its powerful central eye. This eye can fire a paralysis ray that will paralyze any single creature for 1-3 turns. It can fire this ray every other round. Once per day the central eye can fire an energy burst that acts as a fireball spell equal to the hit dice of the Necroton in six-sided dice. The range of both eye attacks is 15?. The energy burst can be fired in place of the paralysis beam in any given round, but the Necroton will be unable to use its paralysis beam for three rounds thereafter, because it must build up its power during that time. Either of these attack forms can be used in melee in addition to the creature?s physical attack by means of its pincers. 
Most Necrotons are instructed not to use their fireballs unless pressed, for the explosion may damage the magic items that the creature has been sent to collect. During the round before the fireball is set off, the translucent ridge on the Necroton?s back will pulsate with a white light that grows to peak intensity just before the fireball is loosed. The creature can abort throwing its fireball if all possible targets have moved out of range at this time. The creator may at any time give a self-destruct command which will do damage as the fireball, but will be centered on the Necroton. It is also 33% likely that this will happen when the creature is destroyed in combat.
If the Necroton is successful in paralyzing 1 or more members of a party and driving the others off, it will approach the fallen victims and loot their bodies with its pincers. The central eye can detect magic, 6? range, and all magic items will be taken first. Treasure in the form of gold, platinum, gems, or jewelry will be taken also. The creature then opens a compartment in its back and loads the treasure inside ? this compartment is 3?x3?x l? in large Necrotons and 2?x2?x l? in smaller ones. If its treasure compartment is full, or if some other instruction from its master requires it, the creature will then return to its master. Whether or not it kills its helpless victims depends on its instructions.
Often a Necroton will be used in conjunction with other minions of the Magic-User whose assignment is to soften up a party for the Necroton?s attack. If it is encountered as a wandering monster it is 75% likely that its creator is watching its activities from afar by means of a crystal ball as explained previously. Otherwise it will be acting on its own, and in such a case it is 25% likely to be returning to its master with treasure. Such a treasure will consist of all the treasures listed for Treasure Type F. A Necroton can also be placed in a particular spot by its master. where it will remain, dormant, until magic Items are brought within 6? of its hiding place. It will then attack on its own to gain treasure for its master.
The central eye of the Necroton can be attacked separately. It is AC -1 and takes 15 hit points that are not part of the Necroton?s basic total. If the creature loses its central eye it is blinded and will retreat as best it can unless ordered to do otherwise by its creator. Necrotons have no difficulty traveling underwater on the sea floor. Fire-based attacks will slow a Necroton, but the creature is otherwise unaffected by spells. These creatures are vulnerable to the attacks of Rust Monsters.
Hit Dice
Experience Point Value
8
1375 + 10/h.p.
9
2100 + 12/h.p.
10
3150 + 15/h.p.
11-12
4550 + 16/h.p.


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

some preliminary stats for the necroton:

*Necroton*
Medium? Construct
Hit Dice: 8d10+20 (64 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+X
Attack: Pincer +X melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 pincers +X melee (2d6+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: fireball ray, paralysis ray, self-destruct
Special Qualities: construct traits, damage reduction X/X, darkvision 60 ft, detect magic, immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con ---, Int 3, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 11
Feats: 3

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Medium); 17-24 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: ---

A necroton is 4-6 feet in diameter and weighs about X pounds.

COMBAT

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #42 ("Dragon's Bestiary," October 1980, Phil Meyers).


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2005)

I wonder if the eye functions should be combined into one ability, similar to the retriever...


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

Sure, we can have a look at that.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2005)

Here ya go for reference:

Eye Rays (Su): A retriever’s eyes can produce four different magical rays with a range of 100 feet. Each round, it can fire one ray as a free action. A particular ray is usable only once every 4 rounds. A retriever can fire an eye ray in the same round that it makes physical attacks. The save DC for all rays is 18. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

The four eye effects are:
Fire: Deals 12d6 points of fire damage to the target (Reflex half).
Cold: Deals 12d6 points of cold damage to the target (Reflex half).
Electricity: Deals 12d6 points of electricity damage to the target (Reflex half).
Petrification: The target must succeed on a Fortitude save or turn to stone permanently.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 27, 2005)

Enviroment should be "Any"; the article says it's possible for these guys to be found underwater.


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2005)

makes sense.

Eye Rays (Su): A necroton's central eye can produce two different magical rays with a range of 100 feet. The first ray is usable once every 2 rounds, and the target must succeed on a Fortitude save or be paralyzed for (1d3 minutes?).  The second ray is usable once per day, and acts as a fireball spell (caster level 8th; Reflex half) wherever it hits.  Each round, it can fire one ray as a free action, though it cannot use the paralysis ray for three rounds after using the fireball ray, as the paralysis ray must rebuild its power. A necroton can fire an eye ray in the same round that it makes physical attacks. The save DC for all rays is X. The save DC is Dexterity-based.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2005)

Slight rewording:

Eye Rays (Su): A necroton's central eye can produce two different magical rays with a range of 100 feet. The first ray is usable every other round, and the target must succeed on a Fortitude save or be paralyzed for (1d3 minutes?). The second ray is usable once per day, and acts as a fireball spell centered on the target (caster level 8th; Reflex half). Each round, it can fire one ray as a free action, though it cannot use the paralysis ray for three rounds after using the fireball ray, as the paralysis ray must rebuild its power. A necroton can fire an eye ray in the same round that it makes physical attacks. The save DCs for all rays is X. The save DCs are Dexterity-based.


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## BOZ (Nov 2, 2005)

nice.  

The creator may at any time give a self-destruct command which will do damage as the fireball, but will be centered on the Necroton. It is also 33% likely that this will happen when the creature is destroyed in combat.

The central eye can detect magic, 6” range, and all magic items will be taken first. 

The central eye of the Necroton can be attacked separately. It is AC -1 and takes 15 hit points that are not part of the Necroton’s basic total. If the creature loses its central eye it is blinded and will retreat as best it can unless ordered to do otherwise by its creator. Necrotons have no difficulty traveling underwater on the sea floor. Fire-based attacks will slow a Necroton, but the creature is otherwise unaffected by spells. These creatures are vulnerable to the attacks of Rust Monsters.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> The creator may at any time give a self-destruct command which will do damage as the fireball, but will be centered on the Necroton. It is also 33% likely that this will happen when the creature is destroyed in combat.




Death Throes (Ex): When killed, a necroton explodes in a ball of fire that deals 8d6 points of fire damage to anything within a 20-foot-radius spread centered on the creature (Reflex DC X half ). Additionally, its creator may command the necroton to self-destruct, instantly activating this ability.  The save DC is X-based.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The central eye can detect magic, 6” range, and all magic items will be taken first.




Detect Magic (Su): A necroton is always aware of any magical auras within 60 feet, and it can instantly determine the number, strength, and location of each aura. This ability is otherwise similar to the detect magic spell.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The central eye of the Necroton can be attacked separately. It is AC -1 and takes 15 hit points that are not part of the Necroton’s basic total. If the creature loses its central eye it is blinded and will retreat as best it can unless ordered to do otherwise by its creator. Necrotons have no difficulty traveling underwater on the sea floor. Fire-based attacks will slow a Necroton, but the creature is otherwise unaffected by spells. These creatures are vulnerable to the attacks of Rust Monsters.




An opponent can attack a necroton's central eye with a sunder attempt as if it were a weapon. A necroton's central eye has 15 hit points each. Putting out the necroton's central eye deals no damage to the creature, but blinds it and negates its detect magic and eye ray abilities.  A blinded necroton immediately retreats unless ordered to do otherwise by its creator.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A necroton is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals fire damage slows a necroton (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

A necroton is affected normally by rust attacks, such as that of a rust monster or a rusting grasp spell.


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## BOZ (Nov 2, 2005)

"The Necroton is a golem-like creature created by a Neutral or Evil Magic-User using the following spells: Wish, Polymorph Any Object, Wizard Eye, Geas, Hold Monster, Fireball, and Detect Magic. The cost and construction time is the same as that required for iron golems."

constructs don't require that many spells to create nowadays, but we should incorporate some of them at least.

"A Necroton’s purpose is to gather treasure for its creator, and to this end it can be employed in two ways. First, if the creator has a specific target in mind, the actions of the creature can be directed by the creator. This can be done by normal verbal commands or by means of a Message spell. In either case the creator must accompany the Necroton personally, for it will not heed instructions from anyone else. If the creator owns a Crystal Ball a special form of direct control is possible. The crystal ball enables the creator to see what the Necroton sees and allows the transmission of commands from afar by means of a message spell. When used in this fashion there is no range limitation to the message spell, and intervening objects other than lead will not block the transmission.
A creating wizard who has better things to do may elect to send the creature out on its own without direct guidance. In this case the creator gives the creature a simple set of instructions at the outset of its mission. Thereafter the Necroton will unquestioningly obey these orders until they are countermanded by the creator."

how much of this needs to become part of an SQ?


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> "The Necroton is a golem-like creature created by a Neutral or Evil Magic-User using the following spells: Wish, Polymorph Any Object, Wizard Eye, Geas, Hold Monster, Fireball, and Detect Magic. The cost and construction time is the same as that required for iron golems."
> 
> constructs don't require that many spells to create nowadays, but we should incorporate some of them at least.




Since it is similar to the iron golem, let's modify what it has:

A necroton's body is sculpted from X,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least X,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL Xth; Craft Construct, fireball, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, caster must be at least Xth level; Price X,000 gp; Cost X,000 gp + X,000 XP.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "A Necroton’s purpose is to gather treasure for its creator, and to this end it can be employed in two ways. First, if the creator has a specific target in mind, the actions of the creature can be directed by the creator. This can be done by normal verbal commands or by means of a Message spell. In either case the creator must accompany the Necroton personally, for it will not heed instructions from anyone else. If the creator owns a Crystal Ball a special form of direct control is possible. The crystal ball enables the creator to see what the Necroton sees and allows the transmission of commands from afar by means of a message spell. When used in this fashion there is no range limitation to the message spell, and intervening objects other than lead will not block the transmission.
> A creating wizard who has better things to do may elect to send the creature out on its own without direct guidance. In this case the creator gives the creature a simple set of instructions at the outset of its mission. Thereafter the Necroton will unquestioningly obey these orders until they are countermanded by the creator."




How's this?

Remote Control (Su):  A necroton can be given commands like a normal golem.  Additionally, it can respond to remote commands from its creator by means of a sending, whispering wind, or similar spell.  Additionally, the creator may issue commands via a crystal ball with telepathy or a similar magic item.


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## BOZ (Nov 2, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> CL Xth; Craft Construct, fireball, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, caster must be at least Xth level; Price X,000 gp; Cost X,000 gp + X,000 XP.




Would it be overkill to toss arcane eye or detect magic in there?  Ditching hold monster is fine to me, since I don't see where it applies.    the other spells were common with a 3.5 iron golem, so no issue there.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> Remote Control (Su): A necroton can be given commands like a normal golem. Additionally, it can respond to remote commands from its creator by means of a sending, whispering wind, or similar spell. Additionally, the creator may issue commands via a crystal ball with telepathy or a similar magic item.




Heheh... the name is a bit funny, but it works fine.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2005)

I'd go with detect magic.


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

posting this one in homebrews.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

If we "downsize" the retriever's ability scores from Huge to Medium...

Str 31, Dex 17
-16 Str, +4 Dex

...we get Str 15, Dex 21.

Does that work?


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

not so sure.  i think it should be stronger and slower.  what would it look like downsized from Huge to Large?


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Str 23, Dex 19


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

MUCH better.   updating...


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Wis and Cha for most somewhat-intelligent golems are around Wis 11, Cha 7-10.

I think its AC is going to get a boost, as +3 natural just doesn't make sense.  Even a flesh golem has +10.

Skills:  Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot?

Feats:  Skill Focus (Search), Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand), Weapon Focus (eye ray)?

Death Throes save DC is Cha-based?


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think its AC is going to get a boost, as +3 natural just doesn't make sense.  Even a flesh golem has +10.




agreed!    should be less than an iron golem though.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Death Throes save DC is Cha-based?




that would make the DC 12 if i go with Cha 7...


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

+20 nat armor?  That is right in the middle of stone and iron golems.

As for the DC, swap out one of the SKill Focus feats with Ability Focus?


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

no, i can't see adding Ability Focus to a death throes ability...

and it is a Medium 8-HD creature, so is +20 too high for nat armor?


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

We gave Iron Man (Small, 4 HD) +10, so maybe + 15?


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

oddly enough, i was thinking +15.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Then by all means go with that!    

Damage reduction 5 or 10/adamantine?


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

i'm fine with just 5.  it was only +1 weapons to hit before, and 5/adamantine is way worse than that.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Cool.  You fine with most of the other suggestions?


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

yeah, in fact, updating it now.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

How about 11 Search +8 (5 ranks), Sleight of Hand +8 (1 rank), Spot +5 (5 ranks)?

A flesh golem has 9 HD and is CR 7.   At 8 HD, but slightly better powers, perhaps CR 7 as well?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 3, 2005)

8 HD and some better powers, but a much burlier AC. I'd say that AC alone qualifies it for CR 9-10. 

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Good point.  I could see the CR increase to 9.


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

tough fellow!  

updating again...


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

I have yet to get a handle on golem construction, so I can offer little help in that area.    

How about 2,000 pounds?

Death throes need an ability score for DC.  I stand by Cha, as it is the normal default for lack of Con.


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

alright, but like i say that will result in a low DC for that CR.    of course, then again, creatures in the area will still take half damage if they don't have evasion, so maybe that's not so bad.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 3, 2005)

Or you could always give it a racial bonus to the save DC.

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

or leave it Con-based, making it DC 14 instead of 12.


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

anyways, wrote up the flavor text, so i'm updating again.

demiurge or anyone else lurking, do you know anything about how to set up the construction costs and such?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2005)

Unfortunately, I have no idea. I found a reference in the ENWorld archives to how Sixten "cracked the system" back in 02, but that was 3e. 3.5 changed all the costs.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2005)

This might help:  http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050816a

Posting relevant parts here for BOZ who is blocked from WOTC's site:

Building a Construct 

The easiest way to make a construct requires a suitable object and an animate objectsspell. If you're not satisfied with a mere animated object, however, you have to put in a bigger effort.

Creating a fairly elaborate construct such as a golem or shield guardian requires the Craft Construct feat (described on page 303 in the Monster Manual). The process of construct creation is just like creating a magic item. The process is described in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide and in Rules of the Game: Making Magic Items. Here are the highlights:

Prerequisites: A construct has a list of prerequisites, which is included in the creation section of the construct's description. A list of prerequisites might include one or more feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, skills, and race or kind.

A construct's creator must have a caster level high enough to cast any prerequisite spell the construct has.

In most cases, the construct's creator must provide any required spells personally; you can't have another character cast them for you, but you can use a scroll that you activate yourself.

Cost: A construct's description (usually) includes a market price and a cost to create the construct. To calculate the creation cost for a construct, subtract the cost of any special materials the construct requires from the market price. Divide the remainder in half. The result you get represents the basic materials you must buy to build the construct. This basic cost includes the cost of the construct's body. Most construct descriptions include a separate cost for the body to allow DMs and players to use the Craft skill to create the body.

The total cost to create the construct is the basic cost plus the cost of special materials. For example, a construct with a market price of 100,000 gp and 10,000 gp worth of required special materials has a creation cost of 55,000 gp. (Here's the math: 100,000 - 10,000 = 90,000; then 90,000/2=45,000; then 45,000 + 10,000 = 55,000 gp.) 

Making the construct also requires experience points equal to 1/25th the market price minus the cost of special materials. The construct from the previous example has an XP cost of 3,600.

You can make an advanced version of a construct (one that has more Hit Dice than shown in the creature description). Each extra Hit Die adds 5,000 gp to the construct's market price. If you add enough Hit Dice to increase the construct's size, add an extra 50,000 gp to the construct's market price.

Time: For every 1,000 gp in a construct's market price (or fraction of 1,000 gp), the creator must spend one day working on the construct. The construct from the previous example would require 100 days of work.

Environment: Creating a construct requires peace, quiet, and comfort, just as preparing spells does (even when the creator doesn't need to prepare spells). Any location a character uses for construct creation also must have enough space to hold any special equipment and materials the construct requires.

Equipment: Some constructs also require a specially equipped laboratory similar to an alchemist's lab. The cost for setting up such a laboratory (if it is required at all) is given in the construct's description. The cost for a lab is not included in the construct's market price or base price. Once you set up a lab, you can use it over and over again.


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

ah, hmm, well i guess i'll have a look at that...


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

CONSTRUCTION
A necroton's body is sculpted from X,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least X,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL Xth; Craft Construct, detect magic, fireball, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, caster must be at least Xth level; Price X,000 gp; Cost X,000 gp + X,000 XP.


OK, we've already decided that the necroton is 2,000 pounds, so the weight should be 2,000 pounds of pure iron (this is a 1 to 1 ratio for the iron golem).  This is less than half of what the golem weighs, so the total cost should be less than 10,000.  maybe 7,500?

The caster level should be 16, since polymorph any object is an 8th-level spell and a sorcerer would have to be level 16 to cast it (I'm assuming this is the same logic that was used to set the CL for an iron golem as well).

I think I understand how the formulas Shade posted above work.  Just need a method to come up with the starting values in the first place.    if we can set the market price (apparently similar to the way a magic item's market price is set up?), and the total materials cost, then the rest should fall into place.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2005)

I think 7,500 should work.  

The market price is tricky.

Here's what the MM golems have:

Flesh - 20,000 (CR 7, 9 HD)
Clay - 40,000 (CR 10, 11 HD)
Stone - 90,000 (CR 11, 14 HD)
Iron - 150,000 (CR 13, 18 HD)

I listed the CR and HD on the slim chance they are part of the puzzle.


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

i doubt the CR and HD are part of the equation, but you never know.  size is almost certainly a factor, however.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2005)

All those listed are Large.


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

right, but we decided the necroton is medium...  therefore, the price should be less.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2005)

Ahh...OK.


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

market price 100,000?


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2005)

That seems kinda steep for its CR...but I really don't know, so why not?


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

we could go lower.  80,000?


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2005)

How about 70,000? That's a little bit higher than halfway between clay and stone.


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

OK, with a price of 70,000, that would give us a creation cost of 38,750 using the formulas.  The XP cost would be 2,800.

Check my math, please.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

Math class is hard!

Yes, that seems to be correct, although my math skill checks are untrained.


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

heh, same here.  so therefore, since we don't know any better, we can go with:

CONSTRUCTION
A necroton's body is sculpted from 2,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 7,500 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, detect magic, fireball, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 70,000 gp; Cost 38,750 gp + 2,800 XP.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

That works for me.


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

updating.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

It looks good.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

How about the devil spider (issue #55) next (assuming nothing else was in the queue)?


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

i don't believe there was anything else waiting.


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## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

you want it, you got it.  

Dragon #55, Nov 81

Dragon's Bestiary

Devil Spider
Created by Erol Otus

FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2 (except underbelly, which is AC5)
MOVE: 18  *12
HIT DICE: 13
% IN LAIR: 75%
TREASURE TYPE: H
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10 and 1-10 (2 claws) plus 2-12 (bite)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
SIZE: L (10' legspread, 5' high)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense modes: Nil

This creature's true name - if it has one - is unknown. It has come to be known by the name "Devil spider" because it certainly is some type of spider, and because it is devilishly evil in its attempts to capture prey and treasure.
The devil spider usually makes its lair in a chasm or large pit, or in an open area near a well-traveled path or under a bridge. It will spin a web which spans an open area (minimum 10'x10', maximum 100'x100') and will then lurk nearby, waiting for a potential meal to arrive on the scene. A spider may attack from ground level, or may descend on a victim from above, suspended by a single strand of webbing material.
The web is made of non-glossy, nearly transparent strands which cannot be detected by torchlight from farther than 5 feet away. And if a victim gets close enough to see the web, the spider will automatically attack. The devil spider will surprise an adversary on a roll of 1-4.
If at least one character or creature is no more than 10 feet away from the web, the devil spider will not usually make a normal attack but instead will attempt to shove the character nearest the web into the strands. If it has a choice, the spider will go for the target which is smallest or looks weakest. On a result of 11 or higher on a d20, this "push attack" will succeed.
The die roll is modified by the following factors:
Target smaller than man-sized: -2
Target larger than man-sized: +2
Target surprised: -2
Target secured in position (using rope, spikes, or other devices): +1 to +4
Target in precarious position (clinging to cliff wall, etc.): -1 to -4
The strands of the devil spider's web are very strong. Any particular strand will be broken only if it takes 10 points of damage in a single round, from one or more hits on the same spot. If a web strand takes less than 10 points of damage in a single round, it will be able to absorb up to 10 more in a subsequent round, because the attacker(s) is not able to hit precisely the same spot with attacks in two different rounds. It takes 40 points of damage to sever a web at the intersection of two strands, where the material is much thicker, but damage to a web intersection is cumulative over more than one round.
Blunt weapons do only half damage to the web. It is fireproof, but takes double damage from cold-based attacks.
The web strands are coated with a clear, glue-like substance. A character whose body contacts the web will be immobilized by the sticky goo, but may pull one or two extremities free. If a roll of d20 is equal to or less than the average of the character?s strength and dexterity (round fractions down), one limb (victim's choice) is freed. A victim can roll to try to partially escape once per round, but no more than two limbs can be pulled loose in this manner. The spider will attack at +2 "to hit" against a victim in the web, and the victim (if able to fight back) will be at -4 "to hit" as long as he is in the web.
A devil spider is reasonably intelligent, and its course of action will always be dictated by circumstances rather than instinct. However, the creature is somewhat predictable. It will always begin a combat situation by making repeated attempts to push a target into its web, as long as a target is available. Then it will assault the victim, trying to kill or weaken it so it cannot escape. During all this time, the spider will generally ignore attacks on its body, but if its hit points are reduced to less than half of the original number, it will either turn to take on the ones doing the damage, or it will attempt to flee (depending on its estimation of the strength of its enemies). After it has captured one victim, it will not attempt to push another one into the web until the first victim is killed or freed.


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Dragon #55 said:
			
		

> This creature's true name - if it has one - is unknown. It has come to be known by the name "Devil spider" because it certainly is some type of spider, and because it is devilishly evil in its attempts to capture prey and treasure.




Magical beast (Extraplanar)?



			
				Dragon #55 said:
			
		

> The devil spider usually makes its lair in a chasm or large pit, or in an open area near a well-traveled path or under a bridge. It will spin a web which spans an open area (minimum 10'x10', maximum 100'x100') and will then lurk nearby, waiting for a potential meal to arrive on the scene. A spider may attack from ground level, or may descend on a victim from above, suspended by a single strand of webbing material.
> The web is made of non-glossy, nearly transparent strands which cannot be detected by torchlight from farther than 5 feet away. And if a victim gets close enough to see the web, the spider will automatically attack. The devil spider will surprise an adversary on a roll of 1-4.




Web stuff notwithstanding, it sounds like we need skill ranks in Hide, Listen, and Spot, and probably Improved Initiative.



			
				Dragon #55 said:
			
		

> If at least one character or creature is no more than 10 feet away from the web, the devil spider will not usually make a normal attack but instead will attempt to shove the character nearest the web into the strands. If it has a choice, the spider will go for the target which is smallest or looks weakest. On a result of 11 or higher on a d20, this "push attack" will succeed.
> The die roll is modified by the following factors:
> Target smaller than man-sized: -2
> Target larger than man-sized: +2
> ...




Uhh...Improved Bull Rush?



			
				Dragon #55 said:
			
		

> The strands of the devil spider's web are very strong. Any particular strand will be broken only if it takes 10 points of damage in a single round, from one or more hits on the same spot. If a web strand takes less than 10 points of damage in a single round, it will be able to absorb up to 10 more in a subsequent round, because the attacker(s) is not able to hit precisely the same spot with attacks in two different rounds. It takes 40 points of damage to sever a web at the intersection of two strands, where the material is much thicker, but damage to a web intersection is cumulative over more than one round.
> 
> Blunt weapons do only half damage to the web. It is fireproof, but takes double damage from cold-based attacks.
> 
> The web strands are coated with a clear, glue-like substance. A character whose body contacts the web will be immobilized by the sticky goo, but may pull one or two extremities free. If a roll of d20 is equal to or less than the average of the character?s strength and dexterity (round fractions down), one limb (victim's choice) is freed. A victim can roll to try to partially escape once per round, but no more than two limbs can be pulled loose in this manner. The spider will attack at +2 "to hit" against a victim in the web, and the victim (if able to fight back) will be at -4 "to hit" as long as he is in the web.




Web (Ex): Devil spiders often wait in their webs, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size.  A devil spider can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the devil spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful DC X Escape Artist check or burst it with a DC X Strength check. Both are standard actions. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +X racial bonus.

Devil spiders often create sheets of sticky webbing up to 100 feet square. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot section has X hit points and sheet webs have damage reduction 5/—.

A devil spider can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.

Tremorsense (Ex): A devil spider can detect and pinpoint any creature or object within 60 feet in contact with the ground, or within any range in contact with the spider’s webs.





			
				Dragon #55 said:
			
		

> A devil spider is reasonably intelligent, and its course of action will always be dictated by circumstances rather than instinct. However, the creature is somewhat predictable. It will always begin a combat situation by making repeated attempts to push a target into its web, as long as a target is available. Then it will assault the victim, trying to kill or weaken it so it cannot escape. During all this time, the spider will generally ignore attacks on its body, but if its hit points are reduced to less than half of the original number, it will either turn to take on the ones doing the damage, or it will attempt to flee (depending on its estimation of the strength of its enemies). After it has captured one victim, it will not attempt to push another one into the web until the first victim is killed or freed.




I think our combat flavor text is pretty much finished.


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## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

are you sure that it should be extraplanar?


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

No, but I kinda like it as being from the Nine Hells.


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## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

i don't see anything to support that idea, besides the name.


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Fair enough.


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## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

you want MB?


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Sounds good.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2005)

some preliminary stats for the devil spider:

*Devil Spider*
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 13d10+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares), climb 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (1d10+X) and bite +X melee (2d6+X)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: web
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, spell resistance X, tremorsense 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 32 Hide, Listen, Spot
Feats: 5 Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative

Environment: 
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 
Treasure: H
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 
Level Adjustment: 

SIZE: L (10' legspread, 5' high)

COMBAT


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2005)

Physical stats of other Large spiders:

Phase:  Str 17, Dex 17, Con 16
Monstrous:  Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12
Harpoon: Str 17, Dex 19, Con 18
Sword: Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14
Steeder: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 17

So probably Str 17-18, Dex 15-18, Con 14-18.

It'll need Power Attack for Improved Bull Rush.


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## Mortis (Nov 24, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> So probably Str 17-18, Dex 15-18, Con 14-18.



I like Str 18, Dex 16, Con 17



> It'll need Power Attack for Improved Bull Rush.



plus Alertness and Stealthy?

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 25, 2005)

that works for me as well.    Wis and Cha?


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## Mortis (Nov 25, 2005)

Wis 13, Cha 9

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2005)

That works for me.


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2005)

posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2005)

I think we should give it some or all of these skill modifiers common to spiders:

Skills: Monstrous spiders have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A monstrous spider can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Monstrous spiders use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. *Hunting spiders have a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks. Web-spinning spiders have a +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks when using their webs.

Attack line should probably just be claw, although in the Combat section we should mention that it usually focuses on bull rushing.

Environment:  Warm hills, forests, and mountains?


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## BOZ (Nov 27, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> *Hunting spiders have a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks. Web-spinning spiders have a +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks when using their webs.




that sounds like an either/or prospect to me.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Environment:  Warm hills, forests, and mountains?




i guess so - do we have any clues?  i saw this: "The devil spider usually makes its lair in a chasm or large pit, or in an open area near a well-traveled path or under a bridge."  i was thinking Underground, but i guess not.


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## Shade (Nov 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that sounds like an either/or prospect to me.




Well, since it is a web-spinner...   




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i guess so - do we have any clues?  i saw this: "The devil spider usually makes its lair in a chasm or large pit, or in an open area near a well-traveled path or under a bridge."  i was thinking Underground, but i guess not.




I was basing my assumption off the same text.  Add underground to what I listed and we're good to go.


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## BOZ (Nov 27, 2005)

well, i was only thinking underground because that seemed like a logical choice to me without noticing the above sentence.    with "chasm" is that enough to say underground?  because otherwise i actually don't think we need it.


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## Shade (Nov 27, 2005)

Chasm is why I picked hills and mountains, but I suppose it is technically underground as well.


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## BOZ (Nov 27, 2005)

sounds good; i'll go with all of that then.


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

can we make use of these bits, and if so, how?

The web is made of non-glossy, nearly transparent strands which cannot be detected by torchlight from farther than 5 feet away. 

The strands of the devil spider's web are very strong. Any particular strand will be broken only if it takes 10 points of damage in a single round, from one or more hits on the same spot. If a web strand takes less than 10 points of damage in a single round, it will be able to absorb up to 10 more in a subsequent round, because the attacker(s) is not able to hit precisely the same spot with attacks in two different rounds. It takes 40 points of damage to sever a web at the intersection of two strands, where the material is much thicker, but damage to a web intersection is cumulative over more than one round.

Blunt weapons do only half damage to the web. It is fireproof, but takes double damage from cold-based attacks.


And for the modifiers given for the bull rush:



			
				Dragon #55 said:
			
		

> On a result of 11 or higher on a d20, this "push attack" will succeed.
> The die roll is modified by the following factors:
> Target smaller than man-sized: -2
> Target larger than man-sized: +2




I think these are covered already, given on page 154 of the PHB.



			
				Dragon #55 said:
			
		

> Target surprised: -2




flat-footed?  That does apply against a charge attack already doesn't it?



			
				Dragon #55 said:
			
		

> Target secured in position (using rope, spikes, or other devices): +1 to +4
> Target in precarious position (clinging to cliff wall, etc.): -1 to ?4




These might not already be accounted for.  Should we add something about that?


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> can we make use of these bits, and if so, how?
> 
> The web is made of non-glossy, nearly transparent strands which cannot be detected by torchlight from farther than 5 feet away.




I think this covers it: "They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The strands of the devil spider's web are very strong. Any particular strand will be broken only if it takes 10 points of damage in a single round, from one or more hits on the same spot. If a web strand takes less than 10 points of damage in a single round, it will be able to absorb up to 10 more in a subsequent round, because the attacker(s) is not able to hit precisely the same spot with attacks in two different rounds. It takes 40 points of damage to sever a web at the intersection of two strands, where the material is much thicker, but damage to a web intersection is cumulative over more than one round.




I don't want to get into the whole "called shots" thing, but we could give the strands fast healing to simulate this.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Blunt weapons do only half damage to the web. It is fireproof, but takes double damage from cold-based attacks.




I think the usual monstrous spider's sheet webs' damage reduction 5/— handles the first part, and we can state that they are immune to fire but have vulnerability to cold.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And for the modifiers given for the bull rush:
> 
> I think these are covered already, given on page 154 of the PHB.




Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> flat-footed?  That does apply against a charge attack already doesn't it?
> 
> These might not already be accounted for.  Should we add something about that?




I don't think we need to add any of this.  It just appears that since they lacked a bull rush mechanic in past editions, they were trying to create one for the devil spider.  I'd just stick with the standard bull rush modifiers.


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think this covers it: "They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack."




Maybe, but maybe the "cannot be detected by torchlight from farther than 5 feet away" might mean that they are harder to see than normal spider webs?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I don't want to get into the whole "called shots" thing, but we could give the strands fast healing to simulate this.




Nah, I'll just skip that part.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I think the usual monstrous spider's sheet webs' damage reduction 5/— handles the first part, and we can state that they are immune to fire but have vulnerability to cold.




In 3.0, weren't spider webs more vulnerable to fire?  Did they get rid of that quality in 3.5?


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Maybe, but maybe the "cannot be detected by torchlight from farther than 5 feet away" might mean that they are harder to see than normal spider webs?




Maybe.  We could say they benefit from total concealment from more than 5 feet away, similar to some of the fog spells, etc.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> In 3.0, weren't spider webs more vulnerable to fire?  Did they get rid of that quality in 3.5?




Yeah, they use to have damage reduction 5/fire...which was odd.  Now it's simply 5/-.


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## Mortis (Nov 29, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, they use to have damage reduction 5/fire...which was odd.  Now it's simply 5/-.



As 3.5 did away with DR/energy, WotC should have given webs the Vulnerability to Fire trait.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

Probably, since fire only deals half damage to objects.


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

i just gave them this line:
A devil spider's webs have immunity to fire, and vulnerability to cold.

and how about this for the other part:
In addition, a devil spider's webs are so transparent that they have total concealment against any creature more than 5 feet away.

i think blindsight would allow someone to see the webs though.


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

That'll work, and blindsight will let them be seen, which is fine.


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

updating!


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

For skills, how about:  Hide 8, Listen 8, Move Silently 8, Spot 8?

Since its Hit Dice fall between the Huge and Gargantuan monstrous spiders, and its spell resistance and Intelligence are offset by its lack of poison, how about right in the middle of those two:  CR 6-7?

Since its magic resistance was only 25%, how about CR + 6?

A typical devil spider’s body is 10 feet long. It weighs about 900 pounds.


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

cool, that all works.  CR 7.

do you have the Dragon archives CD-rom handy?  if so, could you check out the picture and write a description for it?  if not, no problem because i can do it when i get home.


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

_The creature resembles a monstrous spider, with fiery red coloration with shadowy bands of black on its eight legs.  Its head looks more like a fiendish goblin than an arachnid, with two horns jutting from above its eyes and another pair forming a beard beneath its chin.  A pair of smaller, pincerlike arms protrude from the sides of its head._


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

yep, that does rather well describe what Erol Otus' illustration of his creation looks like.  

updating in homebrews!


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Cool.

Web DC should be 19 for Escape Artist and 19 + whatever racial bonus we assign Strength check (I'd suggest +6...slightly better than monstrous spiders).

15 hit points for webbing?


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

that's all fine for me!

updating again.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

I think it's finished.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

yay!


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 30, 2005)

Actually, it's not done yet.  You still have Treasure listed as "H".


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

oh right!  that would probably be standard, though it could be double standard.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

One of these days, we need to sit down with those charts and come up with a conversion guide for that, then post it to the conversion notes thread.  That would save us oodles of time in the long run.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

sure!  it would have to be variable though... the old charts were static (if you have treasure type A, you have this), but the current ones have a set standard that goes up and down based on your level...

so, a 1-HD monster that had treasure type A might have double or even triple standard, whereas a 20-HD monster with type A might have half standard or less.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Ahh...ineresting.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

well, we can worry about that later.  

in the meantime, updating in homebrews...


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

I think it's done...but I thought that last time, too.


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2005)

Flitte
Created by Pat Rankin
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 2-5
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: 3"/21"
HIT DICE: 3 + 1
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: U
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (1' at shoulder)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Flittes were created by a demented wizard who hated all other members of his profession. The animals' sole purpose in life is to reduce the amount of magic in the world, and in order to achieve that purpose they will give up their own lives if necessary.
Flittes have some of the abilities of blink dogs and imps. They can blink (as a blink dog) and can detect magic. They can become invisible twice per day. When encountering a single individual, they can use a suggestion that the character or creature unburden himself of all magic items in his possession. If the victim is meeting the Flitte's gaze, he makes his saving throw at -2. If a magic item has its own intelligence it is allowed its own saving throw (at no penalty), and if the item saves, the character will be also saved from the effects of the suggestion.
In addition to blinking at random during an encounter with a hostile creature, the Flitte can teleport at will with the accuracy of a Dimension door. When the Flitte senses the use of powerful magic within 30", it will teleport to a nearby position to observe the situation. If a very powerful magical artifact is present, the Flitte will use its tail "stinger" to attack. The stinger functions as a Rod of Cancellation. When it is used successfully, the Flitte blinks into the ethereal plane and dies. If a Flitte is killed without having used its stinger, the cancellation ability disappears. The stinger can also be used as a regular attack, and in such cases is treated as a +2 dagger.
In the presence of relatively less powerful magic items, the Flitte will use stealth, its suggestion power, and its normal attack (bite for 1-4 pts. damage).
During and after combat, the Flitte can regenerate one lost hit point in every other round, up to a maximum of its original hit point total. If it is reduced to one-third or less of its original hit points without being killed at the same time, it will blink out until it has regenerated back to its original strength.
A Flitte lair is usually a small hollow inside solid rock which can only be reached by teleportation. In a lair there might be an individual (30% chance), but it will usually include a mated pair of Flittes, alone or with 1-3 pups. The pups have one hit die each and can blink and teleport as adults, but have no attack capabilities. A Flitte lair will be near an area which is likely to attract adventurers who possess magic items. An individual Flitte without a lair will journey to such areas, tying to attract a mate or searching for a powerful magic item to steal or neutralize.
In general, the Flitte is a loner. It will not be encountered unless it has sensed the use, or impending use, of powerful magic. Rarely, it can be compelled to serve a master - but its primary purpose remains the destruction of magic, not helping someone else steal it for his/her own use. Flittes have been known to become the "familiars" of certain Monks whose goal is to prevent the use of magic.
Flittes speak common and can converse with blink dogs. They may also speak elvish, dwarvish, and goblin (75% chance for each) plus red dragon and cloud giant languages (25% chance for each).
Description: Flittes have the body of a dog with intelligent-looking eyes. They have long, flexible tails with the stinger on the end. Their forelegs are humanoid arms with hands, and they have wings. They can walk erect on their hind legs for short periods of time, but normally walk on all fours.


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 10, 2005)

Hey, one of my requests!  

For starters, despite the mention of imps in the flitte's entry, it should probably be a magical beast.


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2005)

i agree.  

Keep in mind, a 1E blink dog was 3' at the shoulder, so this guy is definitely supposed to be smaller.  Probably Small, possibly Tiny.


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 10, 2005)

If the flitte is only 1' high, it should probably be Tiny.
How does the name "Sting of Cancelation" sound for its stinger attack?


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2005)

heh, neat.  

well, 1-foot high, but it would be longer.  you know, like a small dog.    probably somewhere between 2-3 feet long.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2005)

Borrowing the obvious abilities from the blink dog...

Blink (Su): A blink dog can use blink as the spell (caster level 8th), and can evoke or end the effect as a free action.

Dimension Door (Su): A blink dog can teleport, as dimension door (caster level 8th), once per round as a free action. The ability affects only the blink dog, which never appears within a solid object and can act immediately after teleporting.



> Flittes speak common and can converse with blink dogs. They may also speak elvish, dwarvish, and goblin (75% chance for each) plus red dragon and cloud giant languages (25% chance for each).




Flittes speak Common and the language of blink dogs.  Exceptionally intelligent flittes also speak Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Draconic or Giant.


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## Kwitchit (Dec 11, 2005)

More flitte-y goodness:
Suggestion (Sp) A Flitte may use Suggestion as the spell (CL 6th) to suggest that creatures immediately remove all their magic items. Due to the unusualness of this request, the target gains a +2 circumstance bonus on their Will Save unless they are looking into the eyes of the Flitte.

Detect magic (Sp) A Flitte can cast Identify at will as the spell, but with a 30ft. range.

Sting of Cancellation (Su) If a Flitte detects a magic item with a value of more than Xgp, it will make a special sting attack against it. If this attack hits, it has the effects of a Rod of Cancellation and, if successful, destroys the Flitte (the party gain no XP for Flittes killed in this way).

And a preliminary profile for it:
Size/Type: Small Magical Beast
Hit Dice:Xd10+X
Init: +3
Speed: 25 ft. fly 40 ft.
AC: 15 (+1 size +3 Dex +1 natural), Touch 14, Flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: X/X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d4) or sting +(X+2) melee (1d3+2)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d4) and sting +(X-3) melee (1d3+2)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Sting of Cancellation, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Darkvision, spell-like abilities
Saves: Fort+X. Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities, X
Skills: X
Feats: X
Environment: Any
Organisation:Solitary or family (2 adults + d4 cubs)
CR: X
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Advancement: X
LA: X


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

good catch on the organization line - i didn't read closely enough to catch that.

actually, for some of those spell-like abilities, i was going to go with this line: "Flittes have some of the abilities of blink dogs and imps."  the SLAs that imps have in 3.5 are as follows: At will - detect good, detect magic, invisibility (self only); 1/day - suggestion. 

so i would bump the invisibility down to 2/day, and probably switch suggestion to at will.  the entry doesn't say anything about detecting alignments, so i will cut that out and leave the rest of the SLA entry as-is.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

> The stinger can also be used as a regular attack, and in such cases is treated as a +2 dagger.




Modifying from this...



> The horn is a +3 magic weapon, though its power fades if removed from the unicorn.




The stinger is a +2 magic weapon, though its power fades if removed from the flitte.


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

some preliminary stats for the flitte:

*Flitte*
Small Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 3d10+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares), fly 60 ft (X)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d4+X) or sting +X melee (1d3+2/19-20) or sting +X melee touch (cancellation)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d4+X) or sting +X melee (1d3+2/19-20) or sting +X melee touch (cancellation)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Blink, darkvision 60 ft, dimension door, fast healing X, low-light vision, scent, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 14, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 28
Feats: 2

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1d3 pups)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: U
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Small); 7-9 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: +X (cohort)

Flittes speak Common and the language of blink dogs. Exceptionally intelligent flittes may also speak Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Draconic or Giant.

COMBAT

The stinger is a +2 magic weapon, though its power fades if removed from the flitte.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - detect magic, suggestion (DC X); 2/day - invisibility (self only). Caster level Xth. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Blink (Su): A flitte can use blink as the spell (caster level Xth), and can evoke or end the effect as a free action.

Dimension Door (Su): A flitte can teleport, as dimension door (caster level Xth), once per round as a free action. The ability affects only the flitte, which never appears within a solid object and can act immediately after teleporting.

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #40 ("Dragon's Bestiary," August 1980, Pat Rankin).


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

Since these critters are essentially "blink dog lite", why not borrow its skills and feats?

Skills: Hide +3, Listen +6, Sense Motive +4, Spot +6, Survival +5
Feats: Iron Will, Run, Track (B)

Environment: Temperate plains?  (Like blink dog)


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

mechanically they are blink dog lite (with some other stuff added back in), but flavor-wise, they are very different!  

"In the presence of relatively less powerful magic items, the Flitte will use stealth, its suggestion power, and its normal attack (bite for 1-4 pts. damage)."  - so stealth is a big factor, but i don't think it needs any racial bonuses.  possibly Sleight of Hand as well, when it wants to secret an item away.

it does have 28 skill points, so it blows the blink dog away if i'm not mistaken.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

You're not mistaken...I did a double-take when I saw the ranks.  It should only have 24 ranks, though, not 28 (2 + 4 Int x 6)

Str 6, Con 8?  (Derived from reverse size increasing a Medium blink dog to Small).

Wis 15, Cha 13?  (blink dog is Wis 13, Cha 11)


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

we may want to make the Cha higher for the suggestion power.  reverse engineering the Dex would give us 19 - is that too high?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

I think 19 Dex is fine.  Maybe reverse Cha and Wis, then?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

On second glance, one of those feats will need to be replaced with Weapon Finesse.   

Perhaps suggestion should be moved from "at will" to "x/day", as it is a bit powerful to try it every round.  (Either that, or make it a Su ability and mention that a creature that successfully saves is immune to that flitte's suggestion ability for 24 hours).  

Fast healing 1?

Good maneuverability (like the tressym)?

MR 40% works out to be CR + 9.

Since the ability of the rod of cancellation isn't very wordy, I'd prefer to just spell it out in the sting of cancellation ability.

Sting of Cancellation (Su): A flitte may make a melee touch attack with its stinger against a magic item.  The item must make a DC X Will save or be drained of all magical ability. If a creature is holding it at the time, then the item can use the holder’s Will save bonus in place of its own if the holder’s is better. Upon draining an item, the flitte instantly transports to the Ethereal Plane and dies. Drained items can only be restored by a wish or miracle.  The save DC is Charisma(?)-based.


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2005)

the more i've been thinking about it today, suggestion probably will need a separate writeup anyway.  i'm fine with making it not at will, but i think the number should be no less than 3/day - we can debate that a bit.  i'd rather do that than give out an immunity!  

regarding the cancellation, do you remember if that used to work against artifacts or not - like 1% of the time or something?  if so, and if it no longer does that, then the ability will have to be altered. also, if that's going to be a Cha-based save, then i think the Cha will have to be higher than 15.


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the more i've been thinking about it today, suggestion probably will need a separate writeup anyway.  i'm fine with making it not at will, but i think the number should be no less than 3/day - we can debate that a bit.  i'd rather do that than give out an immunity!




So you think it should be able to target the same creature with successive suggestions?   I was thinking it was once per individual, with no limit on the number of individuals targeted in a day.  But I may have misinterpreted it.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> regarding the cancellation, do you remember if that used to work against artifacts or not - like 1% of the time or something?  if so, and if it no longer does that, then the ability will have to be altered. also, if that's going to be a Cha-based save, then i think the Cha will have to be higher than 15.




It works like Mord's disjunction...

"Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)"

"Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device."

Cha doesn't necessarily have to be higher...there's always Ability Focus and racial bonuses.


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## Mortis (Dec 13, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> So you think it should be able to target the same creature with successive suggestions?   I was thinking it was once per individual, with no limit on the number of individuals targeted in a day.  But I may have misinterpreted it.



How about adding that if a creature successfully makes his save against the suggestion, he is immune to further suggestions for 24 hours?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2005)

That's what I was suggesting, but BOZ was thinking otherwise.


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## Mortis (Dec 13, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> That's what I was suggesting, but BOZ was thinking otherwise.



I really should read all the preceding posts not just the last couple    

I still stand by it though, perhaps replace 'is immune' with 'cannot by affected by'. - which is probably a more standard phrasing anyway. 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2005)

"When encountering a single individual, they can use a suggestion that the character or creature unburden himself of all magic items in his possession. If the victim is meeting the Flitte's gaze, he makes his saving throw at -2. If a magic item has its own intelligence it is allowed its own saving throw (at no penalty), and if the item saves, the character will be also saved from the effects of the suggestion."

my interpretation was that the flitte uses this power only when encounering a lone individual, probably because it becomes vulnerable if there are other party members going, "hey, that little flying dog has bewitched Yorik!"
there is absolutely no indication of how many times this power can be used in one day, how many times it can be used on one individual, and whether or not you can be affected more than once in the same day.  that all seems to be up to interpretation.

on a side note, we can add a gaze attack which imposes a -2 penalty on Will saves?


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> It works like Mord's disjunction...
> 
> "Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)"
> 
> "Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device."




the 3.5 rod of cancellation doesn't seem to have any text regarding artifacts though.


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I really should read all the preceding posts not just the last couple




yes.


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the 3.5 rod of cancellation doesn't seem to have any text regarding artifacts though.




Not directily, although it does account for the sphere of annihilation (which is an artifact).


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2005)

well, i think that's enough to remove the whole artifact aspect.  i mean, do we really want a 3-HD creature running around dijuncting artifacts?    we can leave it as is, but remove the flitte dying when it succeeds, and add some flavor text to suggest that it uses this on powerful magic items.


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2005)

Sounds good.


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## BOZ (Dec 15, 2005)

let's continue discussing this: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2784092&postcount=838

also, would a limit in X/day be a good idea for the cancellation, now that we have made it non-fatal?


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2005)

Well, the disenchanter has no limit on its magic item wrecking ability.  Of course, it is CR 17 so that might make a difference.    

As for the suggestion, I like it as a targeted ability, rather than a true gaze attack.  It could be a targeted gaze like the vampire's domination, though.  

I still like it as a successful save grants reprieve for 24 hours, but the critter can use the ability as often as it wants.


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well, the disenchanter has no limit on its magic item wrecking ability.  Of course, it is CR 17 so that might make a difference.




exactly - which is why i think a limit to the number of times per day is necessary.  that, or the cancellation is temporary.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> As for the suggestion, I like it as a targeted ability, rather than a true gaze attack.  It could be a targeted gaze like the vampire's domination, though.
> 
> I still like it as a successful save grants reprieve for 24 hours, but the critter can use the ability as often as it wants.




oh, don't get me wrong, it will be a targeted ability.  what i was thinking of doing was taking this: "If the victim is meeting the Flitte's gaze, he makes his saving throw at -2." and making something like this:

"Gaze that Weakens Your Willpower" (Su): Range 30 feet, Will DC X negates.  As a free action, a flitte's gaze imposes a -2 morale penalty on Will saves for a single creature for one round.

good, bad, ugly?  one way or another, the suggestion will otherwise have nothing to do with a gaze.

here's an idea.  the spell works for 1 hour/level.  let's say that if the save is successful, the creature will be unaffected for X hours with X=caster level for the ability.  good compromise or no?


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> exactly - which is why i think a limit to the number of times per day is necessary.  that, or the cancellation is temporary.




So maybe a number of times per day equal to the flitte's Hit Dice or Cha modifier?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> oh, don't get me wrong, it will be a targeted ability.  what i was thinking of doing was taking this: "If the victim is meeting the Flitte's gaze, he makes his saving throw at -2." and making something like this:
> 
> "Gaze that Weakens Your Willpower" (Su): Range 30 feet, Will DC X negates.  As a free action, a flitte's gaze imposes a -2 morale penalty on Will saves for a single creature for one round.
> 
> good, bad, ugly?  one way or another, the suggestion will otherwise have nothing to do with a gaze.




Ahh...I see now.  That sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> here's an idea.  the spell works for 1 hour/level.  let's say that if the save is successful, the creature will be unaffected for X hours with X=caster level for the ability.  good compromise or no?




That seems to unnecessarily complicate the matter.  I suppose if we are limiting it as I outlined above, it couldn't try more than 9 times for a fully advanced flitte against the same item/creature, so retries wouldn't be devastating.


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## BOZ (Dec 17, 2005)

what i meant was, if we say make the caster level 7, then a creature that makes its save would be immune for 7 hours (we would state it that way).

hmm, how about changing the suggestion duration to 1 round/level instead?  or, for it to make more sense, change it to simply say "works as a suggestion that lasts for X rounds"


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what i meant was, if we say make the caster level 7, then a creature that makes its save would be immune for 7 hours (we would state it that way).
> 
> hmm, how about changing the suggestion duration to 1 round/level instead?  or, for it to make more sense, change it to simply say "works as a suggestion that lasts for X rounds"




What do we currently have the duration at again?


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

as far as i know, we don't.    so therefore default.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Ah, OK.  I'm fine with standard duration.

I'm still leery of changing the usual 24 unaffected period of abilities.  I'd rather just drop the immunity than come up with a new system.


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## Mortis (Dec 19, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm still leery of changing the usual 24 unaffected period of abilities.



Me too. 


> I'd rather just drop the immunity than come up with a new system.



 :\  I wouldn't go that far - but then again I could always give it the immunity IMC.   

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

well, the thing is, standard duration is kind of long.  if i reduce it to rounds/level, the ability is way less intimidating, so i'm hoping you'll not need to worry about having it used multiple times on the same creature.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Ahh...I see.  Rounds/level is fine with me.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

Suggestion (Su): A flitte can use suggestion as the spell (caster level Xth; Will DC 15), with a duration of X rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

keeping that duration low seriously limits the usefulness of the spell.  yes, a flitte can cause a paladin to drop her holy avenger sword (it's possible, somehow) and then bounce away.  that's how it's supposed to work.    and why not let the flitte keep trying.  it can only use the effect once per round, so if it besets a party of adventurers, it can do little more than that.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Alrighty, I'm cool with that reasoning.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

good - then watch as i post in homebrews!


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Weapon Finesse seems a no-brainer for the remaining feat.

Suggested Skill ranks:  Concentration 5, Hide 2, Listen 4, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 5, Spot 4

Environment: Temperate plains (like blink dog?)

Caster level 6th for all spell-like abilities?  (double its HD like blink dog)


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

i was thinking the same thing regarding caster level.  

"A Flitte lair is usually a small hollow inside solid rock which can only be reached by teleportation. In a lair there might be an individual (30% chance), but it will usually include a mated pair of Flittes, alone or with 1-3 pups. The pups have one hit die each and can blink and teleport as adults, but have no attack capabilities. A Flitte lair will be near an area which is likely to attract adventurers who possess magic items. An individual Flitte without a lair will journey to such areas, tying to attract a mate or searching for a powerful magic item to steal or neutralize."


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Heh.  That's funny considering they don't have teleport.    

Otherwise, I'd say that's flavor text.

LA should probably be +2 (cohort).


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

well, i posted that to see for clues to determine the environment it would be found in. 

and the text was using the terms "teleport" and "dimension door" interchangably.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Heh.  Well, I'm not sure that really gives us any more clue to its environment.  I suppose you could go with "any", as all they need are rocks and magic-laden adventurers.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

Any it is.  

CR 2? 3? it's pretty powerful for a 3-HD critter.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

3 sounds good.  That's 1 higher than the blink dog, which lacks the magic-item devastation.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

yeah, plus the flitte has the invisibility and suggestion, which can really change the dynamics of a fight!


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

is there a way to retain this?

"If a magic item has its own intelligence it is allowed its own saving throw (at no penalty), and if the item saves, the character will be also saved from the effects of the suggestion."


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

Sure, just state that the wield uses the item's save or its own, whichever is better.


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

like so?

Suggestion (Su): A flitte can use suggestion as the spell (caster level 6th; Will DC 15), with a duration of 6 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

If the victim is carrying a magic item with an Intelligence score, then the wielder uses the item's save or its own, whichever is better.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

Yeah, that works.


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

updating.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

2 feet long and 20 pounds?

How about "gaze of acquiescence" or "acquiescing gaze"?


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

how about submission or surrender instead?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

Submission would work, but not really surrender.   The gaze just makes 'em more agreeable, hence why I chose acquiesce (to consent or comply passively or without protest).


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

aquiese just doesn't sound as strong as submit though.  

Gaze of Submission OK then?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

That's fine.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

updating!


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

SR 12 has a question mark by it.  I think that's fine.  Anything else?


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

treasure?  in 2E (haven't looked at the 1E list, but i'm sure it's very similar), type U was: 2-16 gems (90%); 1-6 art (80%), any 1 magic item (70%)

so actually, no coins at all then.  

Edit: in 1E, the gems were 10-80, the art was 5-30, plus one of each type of magic item excluding potions and scrolls!  the percentage chance to possess was the same, though.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

It looks like you answered your own question.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

see my edit.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

Weird...I wonder why it keeps magic items around when it lives to destroy them?   Maybe they're like a drug and it smashes one when it needs a fix....

So....no coins; standard goods; standard items?


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

well, those just could be items it has collected and plans to destroy later... or bring back to a master to destroy.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

So be it.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

i have updated it once more... is it good to go?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

Looks good to go.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Here's one we meant to do awhile back.  It's probably the oldest non-updated monster remaining from Dragon Magazine.

Dragon #7:

The Prowler
Hit Dice: 14
Movement: 12
A/C: 1
Align: Evil - Highly Intelligent
50% Magic Resistant
Attacks: Constriction, 4-48 hp/turn
Bite, 1-8
No. Apearing: 1

When looking into the eyes of the Prowler it is necessary to make a save vs magic or the victim will be irrevocably mind blanked, a zombei under the control of the Prowler. (Those that save the Prowler will attempt to crush within its powerful coils.) The zombeis then become the recipient of the monster’s eggs which she carefully injects underneath the skin of the victims with the brown tentacles that line her mouth.*

The Zombeis are then turned loose to wander aimlessly about for 2-8 days until the eggs hatch and disclose their wriggling contents, cute little baby prowlers. The zombei now becomes their first meal, he lays down calmly as the little devils pick his bones clean. 

Some exceptionally intelligent prowlers have been known to form hatcheries. They charm large numbers of people and use them as guards and as hosts for their eggs. These hatching grounds will usually be found in abandoned caves or underground.

To restore the minds of the zombeis it is necessary to acquire the services of 3 Patriarchs, who simultaneously cast dispell evils upon the zombei who then regains his mind. 

*However no matter how tenderly she does this the victim still takes 1-8 points of damage. 

Dragon #37:

The Prowler
FREQUENCY—Rare
NO. APPEARING—1
A.C.—1
MOVE—12”
HIT DICE—14
% IN LAIR—10%
TREASURE TYPE—Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS—2
DAMAGE/ATTACK—Bite 1-8, Constriction 4-48
SPECIAL ATTACKS-Gaze
SPECIAL DEFENSES-Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE—50%
INTELLIGENCE—High
ALIGNMENT—Neutral Evil
SIZE—L (9-16’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY—Nil
Attack Defense modes—Nil

When looking into the eyes of the Prowler it is necessary to make a save vs. magic or the victim will be irrevocably mind blanked, becoming a Zombie under the control of the Prowler. (Those who make the save, the Prowler will attempt to crush within its powerful coils.) The Zombie(s) then become the recipient of the monster’s eggs, which she carefully injects underneath the skin of the victims with the brown tentacles that line her mouth. No matter how tenderly she does this, however, the victim still takes 1-8 points of damage. The Zombies are then turned loose to wander about aimlessly for 2-8 days until the eggs hatch and disclose their wriggling contents, cute little baby Prowlers. The Zombie now becomes their first meal; he lies down quietly as the little devils pick his bones clean.

Some exceptionally intelligent Prowlers have been known to form hatcheries. They charm large numbers of people and use them as guards and hosts for their eggs. These hatching grounds will usually be found in abandoned caves or underground.

To restore the minds of the Zombies, it is necessary to acquire the services of 3 High Priests (9th-level Clerics or higher), who simultaneously cast Dispel Evil spells upon the Zombie, who then regains control of his mind.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Getting started...

Prowler
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 14d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft
Armor Class: 19 (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat- footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d8+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d8+X)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10? ft
Special Attacks: constrict, gaze, improved grab
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 14, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 68
Feats: 5
Environment: X
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually? neutral evil
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: ---


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2007)

I've attached the artwork from Dragon #37.

The artwork from #7 looks mostly like the other, but for our description note that it is green with red eyes and brown face-tentacles.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

The thing superficially resembles a carrion crawler.  Perhaps we could modify its physical ability scores?

Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2007)

Would dominate person/monster for the gaze suffice?  Or should we mix in mind blank to make it a bit more unique?


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Would dominate person/monster for the gaze suffice?  Or should we mix in mind blank to make it a bit more unique?



Obviously the term 'mind blank' has changed between editions. Reading the original it would appear to wipe a mind of its contents; whereas in 3.5 it's a protective spell/power that prevents a mind from being read etc.

I'm all for keeping the original intent but we should rename it to avoid confusion.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

What if we went with a feeblemind/dominate combo?


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> What if we went with a feeblemind/dominate combo?



That should work.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

Mindwipe Gaze (Su): Feeblemind as the spell, 30 feet, caster level Xth, Will DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Modifying from vampire spawn...

Domination (Su): A prowler can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the prowlermust take a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the prowler targets must succeed on a DC X Will save or fall instantly under the prowler's influence as though by a dominate person spell from a Xth-level caster. The ability has a range of 30 feet. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Should we state that the second ability can only be used on those feebleminded by its mindwipe gaze?


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Mindwipe Gaze (Su): Feeblemind as the spell, 30 feet, caster level Xth, Will DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> 
> 
> Domination (Su): A prowler can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the prowlermust take a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the prowler targets must succeed on a DC X Will save or fall instantly under the prowler's influence as though by a dominate person spell from a Xth-level caster. The ability has a range of 30 feet. The save DC is Charisma-based.




They look fine.



> Should we state that the second ability can only be used on those feebleminded by its mindwipe gaze?



I'm not sure that's really required. How often is a prowler going to encounter a being that is already feebleminded?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

For ability scores, how about Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 16?


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## Mortis (Jun 28, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For ability scores, how about Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 16?



I'm tempted to up it's Charisma a bit - only for save DCs it's not really the most charasmatic creature. It all depends on what it's final CR is. At the moment the save DC for its Gaze is 20 which I suppose is ok for a creature of about CR 10-11.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

Plus we can always use Ability Focus.


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## BOZ (Jun 29, 2007)

zombei... heheheh



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Mindwipe Gaze (Su): Feeblemind as the spell, 30 feet, caster level Xth, Will DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> Modifying from vampire spawn...
> 
> ...




why not combine the two into one ability?


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> why not combine the two into one ability?




Good question!   In fact, here's one for inspiration...

Fear and Weakness Gaze (Su): As the fear and ray of enfeeblement spells; at will; DC 32; caster level 20th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Fear and weakness gaze has a range of 50 feet. Those targeted by Baalzebul's gaze must succeed on two saving throws, one for fear and the other for ray of enfeeblement.


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## BOZ (Jul 3, 2007)

exactly.  patterning the attack after that gaze, i think it will work just fine.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2007)

Like so?

Mindwiping Domination Gaze (Su): As the feeblemind and dominate monster spells; at will; DC x; caster level xth. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Mindwiping domination gaze has a range of 30 feet. Those targeted by the prowler's gaze must succeed on two saving throws, one for feeblemind and the other for dominate monster.


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## Mortis (Jul 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Like so?
> 
> Mindwiping Domination Gaze (Su): As the feeblemind and dominate monster spells; at will; DC x; caster level xth. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> Mindwiping domination gaze has a range of 30 feet. Those targeted by the prowler's gaze must succeed on two saving throws, one for feeblemind and the other for dominate monster.



That'll work. 

Caster Level: 15?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

Dragon #7 said:
			
		

> The zombies then become the recipient of the monster’s eggs which she carefully injects underneath the skin of the victims with the brown tentacles that line her mouth.*
> *However no matter how tenderly she does this the victim still takes 1-8 points of damage.
> 
> The Zombeis are then turned loose to wander aimlessly about for 2-8 days until the eggs hatch and disclose their wriggling contents, cute little baby prowlers. The zombei now becomes their first meal, he lays down calmly as the little devils pick his bones clean.
> ...







			
				Dragon #37 said:
			
		

> The Zombie(s) then become the recipient of the monster’s eggs, which she carefully injects underneath the skin of the victims with the brown tentacles that line her mouth. No matter how tenderly she does this, however, the victim still takes 1-8 points of damage. The Zombies are then turned loose to wander about aimlessly for 2-8 days until the eggs hatch and disclose their wriggling contents, cute little baby Prowlers. The Zombie now becomes their first meal; he lies down quietly as the little devils pick his bones clean.
> 
> To restore the minds of the Zombies, it is necessary to acquire the services of 3 High Priests (9th-level Clerics or higher), who simultaneously cast Dispel Evil spells upon the Zombie, who then regains control of his mind.




Some inspiration...

Implant (Ex): A red slaad that hits with a claw attack can inject an egg pellet into the opponent's body. The affected creature must succeed on a DC 16 Fortitude save to avoid implantation. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Often the slaad implants an unconscious or otherwise helpless creature (which gets no saving throw). The egg gestates for one week before hatching into a blue slaad that eats its way out, killing the host. Twenty-four hours before the egg fully matures, the victim falls extremely ill (-10 to all ability scores, to a minimum of 1). A remove disease spell rids a victim of the pellet, as does a DC 25 Heal check. If the check fails, the healer can try again, but each attempt (successful or not) deals 1d4 points of damage to the patient.

Implant (Ex): A webbird that succeeds in making a melee touch attack with its ovipositor against an immobilized foe can inject 2d4 eggs into the opponent's body. The eggs gestate in 1d4+2 rounds before hatching into 2d4 pink grubs that begin eating their host at an alarming rate, inflicting 1 point of damage per grub each round until they are removed or the host dies. One minute after a host is killed in this fashion, the grubs emerge as adult webbirds. A remove disease spell rids the victims of the eggs and grubs, as does cutting them out with a DC 14 Heal check. Each attempt at this Heal check deals 1d4 points of damage to the patient, regardless of whether it succeeds or not. The grubs can also be killed by incinerating infected bodies.

Webbirds may only make ovipositor attacks against incapacitated, pinned, or otherwise helpless foes. In the round they make the attack they are considered to be grappling their victim and lose their Dexterity bonus to AC.


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## BOZ (Jul 9, 2007)

man, i was so glad to see that ability finally printed for the webbird.  there are plenty of AD&D critters that can implant eggs and such, and most of them had not been converted to 3E for us to use as comparisons.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> man, i was so glad to see that ability finally printed for the webbird.  there are plenty of AD&D critters that can implant eggs and such, and most of them had not been converted to 3E for us to use as comparisons.




And its timing was impeccable.    

I was quite impressed with the webbird update.  Even the artwork was cool.


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## BOZ (Jul 9, 2007)

i think it was modeled after the MCA art rather than the MM2 art.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2007)

Looking at this again, it seems that the primary attack should be a tail slap, which would then have improved grab leading to constrict.  It seems like it only bites those who have become "zombies".

So...

Constrict (Ex): A prowler deals automatic tail damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a prowler must hit with its tail slap attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it succeeds on the grapple check, it can constrict.

Does this seem right?


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## Mortis (Jul 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Does this seem right?



Yes

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 12, 2007)

How's this?

Implant (Ex): A prowler that succeeds in making a melee touch attack with the brown tentacles that line her mouth against an immobilized foe can inject X eggs into the opponent's body. This process deals 1d8 points of damage to the host.  The eggs gestate in 2d4 days before hatching into X larval prowlers that begin eating their host at an alarming rate, inflicting 1 point of damage per larvae each round until they are removed or the host dies. One minute after a host is killed in this fashion, the larvae emerge. A remove disease spell rids the victims of the eggs and larvae, as does cutting them out with a DC X Heal check. Each attempt at this Heal check deals 1d4 points of damage to the patient, regardless of whether it succeeds or not. 

Prowlers may only make bite attacks against dominated, incapacitated, pinned, or otherwise helpless foes. In the round they make the attack they are considered to be grappling their victim and lose their Dexterity bonus to AC.


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## Mortis (Jul 12, 2007)

How about

Implant (Ex): A prowler that succeeds in making a melee touch attack with the brown tentacles that line her mouth against an immobilized foe can inject 1d8 eggs into the opponent's body. This process deals 1 point of damage per egg to the host. The eggs gestate in 2d4 days before hatching into larval prowlers that begin eating their host at an alarming rate, inflicting 1 point of damage per larvae each round until they are removed or the host dies. One minute after a host is killed in this fashion, the larvae emerge. A remove disease spell rids the victims of the eggs and larvae, as does cutting them out with a DC X Heal check. Each attempt at this Heal check deals 1d4 points of damage to the patient, regardless of whether it succeeds or not. 

Prowlers may only make bite attacks against dominated, incapacitated, pinned, or otherwise helpless foes. In the round they make the attack they are considered to be grappling their victim and lose their Dexterity bonus to AC.

Heal DC 20?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2007)

Sounds good.

50% magic resistance equates to CR + 11.

Skills: Climb 15, Hide 11, Listen 17, Move Silently 7, Spot 17?

Feats: Ability Focus (gaze), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (tail slap)?

Environment: Underground?

Organization: Solitary or hatchery (x dominated creatures)?

Challenge Rating: 9?  (I can't see this more powerful than a dragon turtle)

Alignment: Usually? neutral evil

Advancement: 15-28 HD (Large); 29-42 HD (Huge)?


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## Mortis (Jul 13, 2007)

No problem with any of that.

How about 2-12 dominated creatures?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

Updated and added flavor text.

Suggestions for weight?

How about languages?   I would think it would be nearly impossible to speak with the mouthful of tentacles.   Perhaps telepathy?   Or simply that it understands Undercommon?


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## Mortis (Jul 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Suggestions for weight?



1,500 lbs?



> How about languages?   I would think it would be nearly impossible to speak with the mouthful of tentacles.   Perhaps telepathy?   Or simply that it understands Undercommon?



Understands Undercommon.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

Great!  I think this one's done.   Give it a final lookover to be sure.


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## Mortis (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Great!  I think this one's done.   Give it a final lookover to be sure.



Add another to the upload list. 

<edit>
Had a late idea.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I would think it would be nearly impossible to speak with the mouthful of tentacles.



Perhaps it does have it's own language. A sign language using the tentacles. 


Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Perhaps it does have it's own language. A sign language using the tentacles.




I like it, and will add it.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

Next....


Magenta’s Cat
Created by Roger Moore
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (5% chance of 3-6)
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 1+1
% IN LAIR: Special
TREASURE TYPE: Special
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Psionics
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Hiding, silence, psionics
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S
PSIONIC ABILITY: 170-220
Attack/Defense Modes: All/all

Several centuries ago a Wizardess named Magenta began experimenting to try to produce psionic ability in her familiar, a large black cat called (predictably) Midnight. Though she was successful in making Midnight psionic, an unintended side effect caused the cat to be released from its obligation as a familiar, and it escaped.

Though Midnight was never found again, it would seem that the cat was able to breed with others of the normal variety and produce psionic and intelligent offspring. The special genes for these powers are recessive, and thus the probability that any cat today will possess the powers of its ancestor is very low (something like 1 in 1,000).

All known psionic cats (called Magenta’s Cats) are reputed to be of the same deepest black color as the original. About two thirds of these cats are female. All have exceptional night vision, allowing them to see well in anything but absolute darkness, and very sensitive hearing.   These senses make the cats impossible to surprise.  The silence with which they move and their dark color allows them to surprise opponents on a 1-5 in shadowed areas and at night.  

Magenta’s Cats are intelligent in the extreme, and can apparently communicate with all feline creatures by means of a sort of limited empathy/telepathy. They may speak up to three languages besides the feline tongue and the language of neutral alignment.  It is 90% likely that at least one of these other three languages will be the common tongue, and 60% likely that another will be elven.

Magenta’s Cats are aloof and somewhat conceited; they all seem to feel they are vastly superior to any other thinking creature, although they are not given to “broadcasting” their powers. It is likely that any Magenta’s Cat aware it is being watched will act like a normal cat, not revealing its true nature until it chooses to or is forced to.

Though these creatures usually travel alone, it is possible to run into a small group of them, all adults, who have gathered to exchange information, feed, or mate. Singly or in groups, these cats are only known to inhabit towns and cities.  Litters have 3-5 kittens, with only a 10% chance of each offspring having the special powers of the psionic parent(s).  The chance is the same whether one or both parents are psionic.

The psionic powers of a Magenta’s Cat are as follows: Each has the Minor Devotions of Invisibility, Body Equilibrium, Cell Adjustment, and Molecular Agitation.  These powers are used at the seventh level of mastery. Psionic Invisibility will only be used as a last resort if the cat’s normal methods of staying out of sight fail. Body Equilibrium explains why Magenta’s Cats often leap from high buildings and cliffs to escape pursuit, since they are able to slow their descent to prevent harm, and also explains why now and then a confused peasant or traveler will report seeing a black cat walk across a lake or pond and not get wet.  Cell Adjustment removes any damage to the cat (unless it was killed outright) completely in one round. Molecular Agitation is rarely used, but explains why the homes of known cat-haters sometimes burn down inexplicably. Most people believe this is the vengeance of the Egyptian cat-goddess, Bast, or a likeminded deity. Magenta’s Cats probably know differently.

A magic-user of true neutral or partneutral alignment who has psionics may receive a Magenta’s Cat for a familiar if  the spell Find Familiar is cast successfully and a black cat is indicated as the type of familiar received. The base chance is 5%, plus an additional 1% per level of experience of the magic-user over the first. For a magic-user of true neutral alignment, this chance of success is unmodified; however, subtract 2% from the figure arrived at if the magicuser is neutral good, neutral evil, lawful neutral or chaotic neutral. Magic-users of other alignments will not be able to find a Magenta’s Cat for a familiar even if they are psionic. 

In addition to the normal powers of a black cat familiar, the Magenta’s Cat makes the magic-user impossible to surprise and can add its psionic strength points to its master’s in multiple psionic operations. The magic-user may likewise add his or her points to the cat’s to extend its powers, but the magic-user will not gain the cat’s psionic disciplines as his or her own, or vice versa. If the Magenta’s Cat familiar is killed, the magic-user immediately loses twice as many hit points as the cat had, permanently, and also loses all of his or her psionic
powers forever. Like all other familiars, the Magenta’s Cat gets a saving throw vs. magic when the Find Familiar spell is cast.

There is a 5% chance that a Magenta’s Cat will be acting as a familiar if encountered normally. If so, it will be linked to a Wizard of 11th to 18th level (d8 + 10, to generate level randomly) who will react with all powers possible if his or her familiar is threatened. There is a fair chance the cat will be wearing a jeweled (and possibly enchanted) collar of considerable value, as determined by the Dungeon Master.

A Magenta’s Cat acting as a familiar will be very near to its master or mistress, or to the home of that character.  Aside from this sort of “lair,” Magenta’s Cats have no lairs and collect no treasure.

From Dragon #58 (1982).


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2007)

This post should help with the psionic conversions:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2703618&postcount=2


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## Mortis (Jul 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> This post should help with the psionic conversions:



Not with me. I'm afraid I'm utterly clueless when it comes to psionics - but then again it was never part of Mystara anyway. 

Good luck with Magenta's Cat and expect more input from me on the next conversion - unless it's another psionic 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

Since you are about 1/4th of the conversion crew at this point, and no one else has responded to this critter, I'm going to move it out of the Dragon thread and start a Converting Psionic Creatures thread.   That way, the psionic creatures, which always seem to take awhile, won't derail this thread.   Look for a replacement creature soon.


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

Here's the replacement...

Amphitere
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any temperate or tropical land
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: E
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 15, Fly 25 (B)
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 or 1-4/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Constriction, poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (12' long)
MORALE: Unsteady (7)
XP VALUE: 975

The amphitere is a long, winged serpent thicker than a boa constrictor.  Its scales are heavy and noticeable, while its eyes are surprisingly large, and all the more noticeable due to the wattled rings around them. The wings, on the other hand, are quite small in proportion to the rest of the creature, suggesting that it relies on an innate magical power to become airborne. It has two tongues, one a normal forked snake tongue, the other ending in a poisonous tip like the head of an arrow. Some amphiteres also have an arrowhead-shaped stinger at the end of the tail. The amphitere's color varies around the world, generally resembling that of the local snakes. The wings are either membranous or feathered.

Combat: The amphitere can attack with either a bite or a thrust of the pointed tongue. Both attacks inflict 1-4 hp damage. In addition, victims struck with the venomous tongue must save vs. poison (Type E). Those amphiteres who have a tail spike can lash out for another 1-6 hp damage; both mouth and tail attacks can be used simultaneously Finally, the amphitere can attack as an ordinary constrictor snake, inflicting 1-3 hp damage per round. Note that the amphitere cannot bite while constricting. 

The flying snake has only to make a successful attack to coil around the victim initially; afterward, each attack is an automatic hit until the victim is freed. Aside from simply
killing the amphitere, a victim may unwind the creature's coils with a successful Open Doors roll at a -1 penalty. 

Habitat/Society: Amphiteres are solitary coming together briefly in the mating season. The female raises the young alone, driving them out of the lair when they are old enough to take
care of themselves (in about 6 weeks). Thus, any young amphiteres the PCs find in a lair are unable to help their mother defend against intruders.

Ecology: Amphiteres are predators, though cowardly ones, typically picking off lone wayfarers, sentries, and stray animals from a herd. Children are their favored human prey, as adults are simply too big to be swallowed whole. Despite their poison, amphiteres have natural enemies in plenty who are willing to make an initial strike in an attempt to kill the amphitere before it can fight back. Griffins, hippogriffs, and giant birds of prey are frequent foes, and if an amphitere nest is built too low to the ground, wild pigs will raid it.

Although generally rare, amphiteres may undergo a periodic population explosion during a good season when prey is plentiful. When game is scarce, the weaker youngsters tend to
starve to death, with what food there is going solely to the stronger hatchlings. When there is food for everyone, the population doubles, meaning starvation in the future unless something is done. The solution is usually a mass migration, in which many of the creatures fly off en masse to new territories, after which they scatter far and wide, resuming their solitary lifestyle. Although amphiteres are unwelcome neighbors, attacking a massed swarm (which can contain up to 200 individuals) is an extraordinarily bad idea for anyone not plentifully equipped with heavy-damage versions of spells such as fireball. Still, because it is quicker to tackle them all together than to hunt down each individual once they scatter, few local rulers can resist the temptation.

If an amphitere is captured young, it may be trained as a guard beast or pet, and the young typically sell for 500 gp each.  Because of its cowardice, however, it is best placed in ambush positions around the owner's property, rather than being kept out in the open like a guard dog. They tend to lurk among building rafters and upper stories when kept indoors.

From Dragon #248, 1998.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 19, 2007)

I was wondering when you would get to this one!

The amphitere is a large creature; the medium constrictor snake has Str 17, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2; the giant constrictor snake, which is Huge, has Str 25, and the other abilities are the same.

Treasure: Standard

Should this be a dragon or a magical beast? It was listed as a dragon-kin, but it's basically a flying snake.


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Should this be a dragon or a magical beast? It was listed as a dragon-kin, but it's basically a flying snake.




That's the million dollar question.

Per the MM:  "A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities. This type is exceptionally powerful, combining good combat ability, hit points, and saving throws.  Use the dragon type for variations on the basic dragon design (a flying reptile with supernatural abilities). If your creature is essentially just a flying reptile (such as a pterodactyl), the animal or magical beast type may be more suitable."

I'm thinking that magical beast looks more likely, as none of its abilities sound supernatural.


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## Mortis (Jul 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm thinking that magical beast looks more likely, as none of its abilities sound supernatural.



I agree that magical beast makes more sense.

Looking at the constrictor snakes is the SRD, we have two:-

Constrictor  3HD  Str 17  Dex 17  Con 13  Int 1  Wis 12  Cha 2
Giant Constrictor 11 HD  Str 25  Dex 17  Con 13  Int 1  Wis 12  Cha 2

So the only ability that changes is Str. As the amphitere is closer to the normal constrictor than the giant constrictor how about these ability scores

Str 19  Dex 17  Con  13  Int 1  Wis 12  Cha 2
<edit> just spotted GrayLinnorm's post.   

It actually fits quite nicely.

HD     Str
 3       17
 4       18
 5       19
 6       20
 7       21
 8       22
 9       23
10      24
11      25



*Skills:*
Again borrowing from the constrictors we have these skills
Balance, Climb, Hide, Listen, Spot, Swim

Although I doubt we need Swim.

*Feats:*
Same as the standard constrictor?

*Special Attacks:*

Constrict (Ex)
On a successful grapple check, an amphitere deals 1d4+6 points of damage. 

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, an amphitere must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. 

Poison (Ex)
What does Type E poison do?

*Special Abilities*
Scent

Plus a note/sidebar on the variant with the tail stinger?

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Jul 20, 2007)

@*&^@*!!!!
I edited the post instead of quoting.   

*Amphitere*
*Hit Dice: * 5d10+8 (35 hp)
*Initiative: * +5
*Speed: * 20 ft. (4 squares), fly X ft. (X), (climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft. do we keep either/both?)
*Armor Class: * 13 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple: * +5/+13
*Attack: * Bite +8 melee (1d4+4) or tongue +x melee (1d4+2 plus poison)
*Full Attack: * Bite +8 melee (1d4+4) or tongue +X melee (1d4+2 plus poison)
*Space/Reach: * 10 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks: * Constrict 1d4+6, improved grab, poison
*Special Qualities: * Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
*Saves: * Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +2
*Abilities: * Str 19, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills: * Balance +4, Climb +5(+13), Hide +1, Listen +5, Spot +5
*Feats: * Alertness, Improved Initiative, Toughness?
*Environment: * Any temperate or warm land?
*Organization: * Solitary
*Challenge Rating: * X
*Treasure: * Standard?
*Alignment: * Always? neutral?
*Advancement: * X
*Level Adjustment: * -

_Desc._

Flavor text.

*COMBAT*

Tactics.

*Constrict (Ex): * On a successful grapple check, an amphitere deals 1d4+6 points of damage. 

*Improved Grab (Ex): * To use this ability, an amphitere must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. 

*Poison (Ex): * Injury, tongue thrust, Fort DC X negates, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 2d4 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Skills: * (if we keep the climb movement rate) An amphitere has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The amphitere must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it always can choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jul 20, 2007)

From 2e Dungeon Master's Guide, p.73:

Class E
 Method: Injected
Onset: Immediate
Strength: Death/20

It sounds like Constitution damage would be the best option.

I would say yes to Always neutral.

Is CR 4 too much?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 20, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> From 2e Dungeon Master's Guide, p.73:
> 
> Class E
> Method: Injected
> ...




Looks like 

How about initial damage of 1d6 and secondary damage of 2d4? Too much for CR 3?



> Is CR 4 too much?



I'd say so - it's pretty much the same as the standard constrictor which is CR 2 except for its fly speed. So let's split the difference and call it CR 3?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2007)

You guys are off to a great start!

Since the tongue attack is a "thrust", it sounds more like a piercing attack, so I wouldn't go with touch attack.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since the tongue attack is a "thrust", it sounds more like a piercing attack, so I wouldn't go with touch attack.



And I notice that Type E poison is injected 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Aug 6, 2007)

Tongue +3 melee ?

*Feats: * Alertness, Improved Initiative, Toughness?

With only 5 HD, one of these feats will have to be a bonus feat - probably alertness?

Assuming no racial bonus the DC for the poison's Fort save is 13.

I think a CR of 3 would be about right.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2007)

Tongue would be +8 melee, since the full attack line is an "or".

Let's drop Toughness.

Shall we keep the climb and/or swim speeds?


----------



## Mortis (Aug 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Tongue would be +8 melee, since the full attack line is an "or".



 


> Let's drop Toughness.



OK


> Shall we keep the climb and/or swim speeds?



Dump both 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

It looks like all that remains on this one is its weight.   Thoughts?

Am I missing anything else?


----------



## freyar (Sep 20, 2007)

Looking good.  As it flies, it should be light for its size.


----------



## Mortis (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, boas can be upto 18.5 feet long and weigh over 60lbs. As the amphitere is only 12 feet long and should be lighter as it can fly how about 25lbs?

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Sep 20, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Well, boas can be upto 18.5 feet long and weigh over 60lbs. As the amphitere is only 12 feet long and should be lighter as it can fly how about 25lbs?




I'd say that's reasonable.


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

Fantastic.  I'll update it and get the next one going soon.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2007)

Next...

*Cetus, Lesser*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subtropical/tropical seas
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (6)
TREASURE: H,S,T
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 3, Swim 18
HIT DICE: 13
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallow whole
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to petrification
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (60' long)
MORALE: Champion (16)
XP VALUE: 8,000

A cetus resembles a thick-bodied serpent with a head that resembles a cross between a serpent's and a hound's.  Protruding from this head, however, are a pair of 10' ivory tusks. Its body is ringed in dark red and blue-green stripes, and it has both a blood-red crest on its head and a pair of vestigial fins up front of the same color. Its scales are so tightly packed as to resemble full plate armor.

Combat: The cetus has two attack forms, both of which inflict 4-24 hp damage to the target: a thrusting attack with the tusks or a lash of the powerful tail. So large and clumsy is this monster that only one of these attacks can be made at a time; it cannot thrust and lash out at once, even with a foe at either end of it. It may also swallow creatures of up to Size L whole on an attack roll of 18 or better, provided the attack roll is sufficient to hit. The initial swallowing attack causes no damage, but each round afterward, the victim suffers 1-6 hp damage from the creature's digestive fluids. Since it takes up to 10 rounds to cut open a dead cetus, the victim's chances of rescue are slim at best. The lesser cetus is also given a special defense besides its armor: it is immune to petrification-based attacks.

Habitat/Society: These creatures live alone, save for brief moments in the mating season. Even females abandon their eggs after laying them, burying them 50' deep in the sand in the
most desolate and uninhabited wastes for added protection. A cetus lays 1-4 eggs at a time, and these take 6 months to hatch. 

Ecology: Like a regular dragon, the cetus can eat anything to survive, even rock, and thus does not have a balanced place in the ecology of the ocean. Its only enemies are dragon turtles and other aquatic dragons, the largest giant sharks and whales, the occasional kraken, and adventurers bold enough to hunt it.  Giant sea turtles, giant crocodiles, and the various forms of aquatic dragon life dig up cetus eggs on the beach whenever they can.

The cetus seems like a destructive force of nature when suitable nesting places for the eggs and young grow scarce. In general, this happens when expanding human, demihuman, or
humanoid populations cover the local beaches with settlements, making solitary egg-laying missions impossible. The successful mass hunting of eggs by local authorities or bands of
adventurers can also bring about this dilemma; the eggs are just too difficult to find. Whenever the inability to find secure nesting sites places the race's future in jeopardy, ceti from all over the world instinctively congregate on the inhabited area farthest removed from the major centers of civilization. Once there, they use their considerable powers to see to it that the area in question is no longer an inhabited area. Whenever possible, the targeted area will be an island; failing that, it will be a peninsula, preferably one connected to the mainland by a narrow neck of land that can easily be blocked. The monsters attack from all sides at once, using weight of numbers to surround the target and nullify the disadvantage of their slow speed.

A cetus' tusks are worth 4,000 gp each. This high value is due not merely to their size but also to their magical nature. Cetus tusks may be used to fashion any magical item made of ivory, such as the ivory cube used in making a cube of force, a cube of frost resistance, or the Ivory Goats version of figurines of wondrous power. The creature's hide may also be used to create a suit of armor equivalent to magical full or field plate armor +1.

Source: Dragon Magazine #248 (1998)


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2007)

Dragon or magical beast?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Oct 8, 2007)

In the article this guy appeared in, it was presented as a dragon-kin.


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2007)

Indeed. But so was the amphitere.    

Still, I'd prefer to stick with dragon in this case.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 9, 2007)

Picking through the text:

Gargantuan Dragon

Armor Class will include +lots of natural, -lots of Dex

Move: low land speed, higher swim speed (10 / 60?)

Full Attack: Gore OR Tail Lash (but not both in the same round)

Special Attacks: Improved Grab, Swallow Whole
Special Qualities: Immune to Petrification



> Since it takes up to 10 rounds to cut open a dead cetus, the victim's chances of rescue are slim at best.




Looks like it will be difficult for a swallowed opponent to cut their way out of this beast.
Keeping this bit of flavor:

*Armored Insides (Ex):* a cetus' insides are extraordinarily resilient to damage, granting DR 5/- (5/adamantine?).  Only someone with a powerful weapon in hand has any chance of cutting his way out, if he is swallowed by this beast.  The cetus' insides have AC x, and x damage must be dealt in order to create a whole large enough to escape through.


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> Looks like it will be difficult for a swallowed opponent to cut their way out of this beast.
> 
> Keeping this bit of flavor:
> 
> *Armored Insides (Ex):* a cetus' insides are extraordinarily resilient to damage, granting DR 5/- (5/adamantine?).  Only someone with a powerful weapon in hand has any chance of cutting his way out, if he is swallowed by this beast.  The cetus' insides have AC x, and x damage must be dealt in order to create a whole large enough to escape through.




I think there might be precedent for simply adding DR to the swallow whole ability, but I could be mistaken.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think there might be precedent for simply adding DR to the swallow whole ability, but I could be mistaken.



That would probably be the way to go, rather than create a separate block of information


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2007)

How's this?

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a lesser cetus must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to swallow the foe the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A lesser cetus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes x+x points of crushing damage plus x points of acid damage per round from the lesser cetus's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal X points of damage to the gizzard (AC X).  Additionally, the lesser cetus's interior is resilient, having damage reduction 5/adamantine.  Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed creature must cut its own way out. A Gargantuan lesser cetus's interior can hold X Huge, X Large, X Medium, X Small, X Tiny, X Diminutive, or X Fine opponents.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a lesser cetus must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to swallow the foe the following round.
> 
> Swallow Whole (Ex): A lesser cetus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes x+x points of crushing damage plus x points of acid damage per round from the lesser cetus's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal X points of damage to the gizzard (AC X).  Additionally, the lesser cetus's interior is resilient, having damage reduction 5/adamantine.  Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed creature must cut its own way out. A Gargantuan lesser cetus's interior can hold X Huge, X Large, X Medium, X Small, X Tiny, X Diminutive, or X Fine opponents.




That looks great, Shade 
We can clean up some X's later on.

Proposed Abilities: Str 32, Dex 4, Con 24, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 8



> A cetus' tusks are worth 4,000 gp each. This high value is due not merely to their size but also to their magical nature.



I think the cetus' gore attack should count as a magic weapon, for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

Why so low on the Dex?   Even the clunky dragon turtle has Dex 10.

Here are some ability scores of similarly sized and shaped critters...

Sea Drake: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 18
Very Old Crested Sea Serpent:  Str 33, Dex 14, Con 27, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 28 
Very Old Lantern Sea Serpent:  Str 33, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20
Ancient Spiked Sea Serpent:  Str 33, Dex 12, Con 29, Int 10, Wis 21, Cha 20


----------



## dhaga (Oct 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Why so low on the Dex? Even the clunky dragon turtle has Dex 10.




That is true.  The text makes references to how slow and clumsy this creature is; guess I took it a little too far   Dex 10 would be fine.


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Let's look at some of those Xs, these are only suggestions obviously 

Natural Armor: +14 which gives AC 20
Gore: 3d6+11
Tail slap: 2d8+11
CR: 10
Skills: (96 points max skill ranks = 16 for 6 skills)
Listen, Search, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Swim - 16 ranks each or more skills at reduced bonuses?

Feats: Blind-fight, Cleave, Improved Critical (gore), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (gore)

Crushing damage: 2d8+11 and 8 points of acid
Interior AC: 18
damage needed: 25 points
AA Gargantuan lesser cetus's interior can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

That all looks good.

Here's what's left...

Treasure: Standard?
Alignment: Always(?) chaotic evil


----------



## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> That all looks good.
> 
> Here's what's left...
> 
> ...



they too look good - standard treasure and always CE.

An update in homebrews to check and we should be able to call this one done.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> they too look good - standard treasure and always CE.
> 
> An update in homebrews to check and we should be able to call this one done.




Heh...I've been doing just that since my last post.    

A few other things...

Weight?   A purple worm is 20 feet longer and weighs 40,000 pounds.  I'd imagine a cetus might be heavier due to its platelike scales.

It was suggested upstream that we use something similar to a unicorn's horn for the cetus's tusks:



> The horn is a +3 magic weapon, though its power fades if removed from the unicorn.




Do we want to use this, and if so, stick with +3?

Ceti tusks are highly valuable, fetching 4,000 gp or more from interested buyers.  These tusks reduce the cost to create any magic item involving ivory (such as the ivory goats figurines of wondrous power) by X gp.

Lesser ceti speak ... ?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Weight?   A purple worm is 20 feet longer and weighs 40,000 pounds.  I'd imagine a cetus might be heavier due to its platelike scales.



But not by too much, say 45,000 pounds?



> Do we want to use this, and if so, stick with +3?



Why not



> Ceti tusks are highly valuable, fetching 4,000 gp or more from interested buyers.  These tusks reduce the cost to create any magic item involving ivory (such as the ivory goats figurines of wondrous power) by X gp.



We have two options - the first being that a  magic item's cost is reduced by a set amount say 6,000 gp (it would to be at least 4,000 gp or why pay that much in the first place?)

The second option is that it reduces the cost by a percentage.

We may also need to state how many items each tusk can be used for - keep it simple and say one? 



> Lesser ceti speak ... ?



barely with that intelligence 

Sorry - Draconic?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> But not by too much, say 45,000 pounds?




That'll work.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> We have two options - the first being that a  magic item's cost is reduced by a set amount say 6,000 gp (it would to be at least 4,000 gp or why pay that much in the first place?)
> 
> The second option is that it reduces the cost by a percentage.
> 
> We may also need to state how many items each tusk can be used for - keep it simple and say one?




We also have a third option:  remain vague like so...



			
				Unicorn entry said:
			
		

> A unicorn horn is renowned for its healing properties. Evil and unscrupulous beings sometimes hunt a unicorn for its horn, which can fetch up to 2,000 gp, for use in various healing potions and devices. Most good creatures refuse to traffic in such things.






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> barely with that intelligence
> 
> Sorry - Draconic?




Barely Draconic sounds good.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We also have a third option:  remain vague like so...



I like vague - leaves it up to the DM.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I like vague - leaves it up to the DM.




So be it.


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

Does it look complete?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 16, 2007)

> Gore +24 melee



Should be +21 melee, no?  +20 + Weapon Focus?

Otherwise, looks good!  A nice encounter for PCs who take to the high seas for adventure


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Should be +21 melee, no?  +20 + Weapon Focus?
> 
> Otherwise, looks good!  A nice encounter for PCs who take to the high seas for adventure




We made the horn a +3 weapon, so it gained the bonus on attack rolls.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We made the horn a +3 weapon, so it gained the bonus on attack rolls.




Oh, right, so we did!  That would be +24 then, just like you said   

Looks complete to me


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Here's a relatively simple one off the requests list.

YALE 
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 24"
HIT DICE: 3 + 3
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 horns or 2 hooves
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8 or 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: III/60 + 4/hp

The yale is a horse-sized herbivore of rather bizarre form. Built like a stag, it has the head of a boar, with tusks (not used in combat) and a pair of 4'-long horns growing out of it. The head is colored like that of a normal boar; the horns are as white as ivory (though they are not this substance), and the body, neck, limbs, and tail are a solid, dull black.

Yale graze in small herds and will aggressively defend themselves if threatened. The animal can manipulate its horns, pivoting head so as-to be able to attack two opponents at the same time (1-8 hp damage per strike). The yale can also concentrate both horn attacks against a single foe, and can change the configuration of its horns from round to round if so desired. Against a small-sized opponent or one which is downed, the yale will prefer to attack with strikes from its front hooves, doing 1-4 hp damage on each hit. The animal cannot use both modes of attack in the same round.

Despite their ferocity, yale are sought after in the areas they frequent, since the flesh is considered a delicacy (particularely by elves). In some elven societies, a young warrior's skill is tested by having him go up against a solitary yale with long sword in hand, instead of using a bow, which is seen as a fair test of the warrior's ability since the Yale's prowess with its horns is roughly equivalent to that of the warrior's handling of the sword.

Source:  Dragon #101 (1985).


----------



## freyar (Oct 17, 2007)

Interesting.  Just to get started, I'd say Str 14-17, Con 12-13, Dex 10-11, and +4 natural armor.  Any other ideas?


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> The animal can manipulate its horns, pivoting head so as-to be able to attack two opponents at the same time (1-8 hp damage per strike). The yale can also concentrate both horn attacks against a single foe, and can change the configuration of its horns from round to round if so desired. Against a small-sized opponent or one which is downed, the yale will prefer to attack with strikes from its front hooves, doing 1-4 hp damage on each hit. The animal cannot use both modes of attack in the same round.




How's this?

"Pivot Gore" (Ex): The yale is able to pivot its head to bring its horns to bear against multiple opponents.   As an attack action, it can strike a single opponent with both horns or two adjacent opponents with a single horn.  Either way, make a single attack roll.  If a single opponent is hit, it takes damage from both horns.  If a critical hit is threatened, only one confirmation roll is made.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> "Pivot Gore" (Ex): The yale is able to pivot its head to bring its horns to bear against multiple opponents.   As an attack action, it can strike a single opponent with both horns or two adjacent opponents with a single horn.  Either way, make a single attack roll.  If a single opponent is hit, it takes damage from both horns.  If a critical hit is threatened, only one confirmation roll is made.



Looks good. I would call it Pivoting Gore which IMHO sounds better than Pivot Gore. 

<edit> On second thoughts I would make it a Full Attack action - it sounds like it takes more time than a normal attack and I'm not sure that the yale should be able to move and use its gore attack.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Added to Homebrews, incorporating the suggestions above.

Since it's based on a stag/boar...

Boar Feats: Alertness, Toughness
Elk Feats: Alertness, Endurance

Both have Spot and Listen.  Elks also have Hide.

Both have scent.  Should yale?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Boar Feats: Alertness, Toughness
> Elk Feats: Alertness, Endurance



Alertness, Endurance - its closer IMO to a stag than a boar



> Both have Spot and Listen.  Elks also have Hide.



Give it all three



> Both have scent.  Should yale?



Yes

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

Environment: Temperate plains or forests?

Challenge Rating: A 3-HD elk is CR 1, but lacks a gore attack and the pivot.  A 3-HD boar is CR 2 and has the ferocity ability, but lacks a secondary attack.   So CR 2 seems about on target.

From Wikipedia:
Elk cows average 225 kg (500 lb), stand 1.3 m (4-1/2 ft) at the shoulder, and are 2 m (6-1/2 ft) from nose to tail. Bulls are some 25% larger than cows at maturity, weighing an average of 315 kg (650 lb), standing 1.5 m (5 ft) at the shoulder and averaging 2.4 m (8 ft) in length.

So maybe yale are around 8 feet long, stand 5 feet at the shoulder, and weigh 550-650 pounds?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated Homebrews.
> 
> Environment: Temperate plains or forests?
> 
> ...



That all looks good

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

That was easy.    

I think we're done.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 18, 2007)

You guys whipped through that one in short order


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

This next one might take longer.    

*Phaze troll * 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land/subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to High (8-14)
TREASURE: Q (D)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 5+8
T H A C 0 : 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4+2 (×2)/1d6+2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Regeneration
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5’)
MORALE: Champion (16)
XP VALUE: 975
Psionicist: 2,000

Phaze trolls appear as normal trolls in most regards. However, they are only slightly more than half as tall as a true troll and their frames are thick with corded muscle. Unlike their bigger cousins, phaze trolls always stand upright and have high foreheads, similar to the more intelligent races. The skin of a phaze troll is stiff and leathery, and is covered in tough, knobby lumps. The skin ranges from deep blue to violet to black in color, while the troll's mass of unkempt hair is blue or purple.  Phaze trolls seem made for the night and the Underdark, possessing superior infravision (120'). Due to their short stature, they only have a 35% chance to successfully scale any surface.

Combat: Though not very tall, phaze trolls are exceptionally strong and possess sharp claws and teeth. Phaze trolls strike with their clawed hands and fang-filled mouth. They are agile enough to direct each attack at a different opponent. Knowing that their natural attacks aren't as devastating as those of true trolls, phaze trolls often use weapons, preferring pole arms and other two-handed weapons. When a phaze troll uses a weapon, it gets a +4 bonus to damage. It cannot use any of its natural attacks when wielding a weapon.

Phaze trolls possess some unusual powers that are often helpful in the midst of battle. First, a phaze troll is able to dimensionally shift itself, much like the dimension door spell. Unlike the spell, however, the phaze troll is never disoriented after transport.  The troll is also able to cause mirror images of itself to appear as if it had cast the spell of the same name. Both of these powers are innate and may be used at will, one at a time, once per round. Each power may be used a maximum of four times a day at the 6th level of ability.

Like all trolls, phaze trolls enjoy the ability of regeneration. They regenerate three hit points per round, starting three rounds after being wounded, but are unable to regenerate fire or acid damage. Because of their stockier build, phaze troll limbs aren't easily severed. If cut off by vorpal swords or swords of sharpness, however, the limbs will continue to fight and then rejoin the body after combat, if possible.

Habitat/Society: Phaze trolls are aberrations, mutants born of normal trolls who spent much time in areas of raw magical energy or strong Underdark radiations. These radiations are known to be the reasons for a phaze troll's powers and enhanced intellect. Sages are puzzled, though, as to why only dimension door and mirror image powers manifested.

Because of their rarity, phaze trolls don't gather as a race, instead remaining part of the troll tribe into which they were born. Due to their powers and intelligence, they often lead their tribes. Usually, it is an uneasy partnership between the phaze troll and the largest female troll shaman. Phaze trolls are at a disadvantage in such pairings, as they are incapable of magic.

Some, however, can use psionics as a psionicist of up to 3rd level. Such psionicist phaze trolls usually have powers from the disciplines of Psychokinesis, Psychometabolism, and Telepathy.  

Phaze troll genders are equal in size, strength, and intelligence.  Eighty percent of phaze trolls are sterile and cannot reproduce.  This is good, for when phaze trolls successfully mate, they breed true. Phaze trolls reach maturity very quickly, and can live for up to 150 years.

Ecology: Phaze trolls are always hungry, and will eat whatever meat presents itself. Phaze trolls are a scourge wherever they exist, depleting the local area of wildlife and threatening the good races with daring raids' on the outposts of civilization.

Their blood is valuable in the making of healing and mindaffecting magics, while their bones are helpful in fashioning magical items dealing with dimensional travel and illusions.

Source:  Dragon Magazine #199 (1993).


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## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> This next one might take longer.



Oh I don't know. We can just take an ordinary troll and reduce it to medium size, increase its darkvision to 120' and add the phase and mirror image abilities and ta-dah we're done. 

Ok These are primary stats based on those of a medium troll

Phaze Troll
Size/Type: Medium Giant
Hit Dice: 5d8+20 (42 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Halberd +7 melee (1d10+6/x3) or Claw +7 melee (1d4+4)
Full Attack: Halberd +7 melee (1d10+6/x3) or 2 claws +7 melee (1d4+4) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d4+6
Special Qualities: Darkvision 120 ft., low-light vision, mirror-image, phazing, regeneration 3, scent
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6
Skills: 16 points
Feats: Alertness, Iron Will, Track - Needs to lose one

Environment: Any land/subterranean
Organization: Solitary or gang (1-3)
Challenge Rating: XX
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: XX

I only reduced Str by 4 not 8 due to 'their frames are thick with corded muscle'
Int was increased to 10 to reflect 'Average to High (8-14)'

Here's an attempt at the special abilities

Phazing (Sp): A phaze troll can instantly transfer itself from its current location to any other spot within range (640 ft.). This ability works exactly like the _dimension door_ spell except that the phaze troll is not disorientated and can take any remaining actions in the current round. The phaze troll can use this ability upto 4 times per day. (caster level 6th).

Mirror Image (Sp): Up to 4 times per day, a phase troll can create 1d4+2 illusory duplicates of itself, around itself. This ability works exactly like the _mirror image_ spell and lasts for up to 6 minutes. (caster level 6th).

Well its a start at least 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Off to a great start!

We should add some sort of polearm to the attack and full attack lines.

Let's reduce gang to 1-3 to match the original text.



> Some, however, can use psionics as a psionicist of up to 3rd level. Such psionicist phaze trolls usually have powers from the disciplines of Psychokinesis, Psychometabolism, and Telepathy.




We can put this into the "As Characters" section.   No need to go into great detail.


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## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Off to a great start!
> 
> We should add some sort of polearm to the attack and full attack lines.



Halberd ok?



> Let's reduce gang to 1-3 to match the original text.



Yeah that was a direct paste from the troll



> No need to go into great detail.



Absolutely - you know me and psionics 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

Speaks Giant and Undercommon?

It looks like most of the troll variants simply have ranks in Listen and Spot.  Same here?


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## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Speaks Giant and Undercommon?



Yes


> It looks like most of the troll variants simply have ranks in Listen and Spot.  Same here?



Yes, it has 16 skill points and a max rank of 8, so 8 ranks in each?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Sounds good.

Which feat to drop?   I'd vote Alertness, as it has decent Listen and Spot (+7 for both) even without it.

LA +4?   A troll is +5, but +1 of that is due to reach.   Or are the spell-like abilties enough to keep it the same?


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## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Which feat to drop?   I'd vote Alertness, as it has decent Listen and Spot (+7 for both) even without it.



I agree.



> LA +4?   A troll is +5, but +1 of that is due to reach.   Or are the spell-like abilties enough to keep it the same?



I'd say they are worth the +1.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Updated.

CR?


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## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> CR?



4

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2007)

Ok, you guys were fast on this one!  I'd maybe go with CR 5, though, since they're supposed to be as tough as normal trolls.

Oh, and pretty please change disorientated to disoriented in the phazing description.  Pet peeve of mine.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Oh, and pretty please change disorientated to disoriented in the phazing description.  Pet peeve of mine.




Slight revision...

Phazing (Sp): A phaze troll can instantly transfer itself from its current location to any other spot within range (640 ft.). This ability works exactly like the dimension door spell except that the phaze troll may take any remaining actions in the current round. The phaze troll can use this ability up to four times per day. (caster level 6th).

Spell-Like Abilities:  4/day - mirror image.  Caster level 6th.

Look OK?


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## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Is there a reason why it is a "Phaze Troll" and not a "Phase Troll"?  Is that an intentional misspelling of the original creature?


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Is there a reason why it is a "Phaze Troll" and not a "Phase Troll"?  Is that an intentional misspelling of the original creature?




Dunno, but that's the way it was, so that's the way it's gonna be.


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## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Dunno, but that's the way it was, so that's the way it's gonna be.



Works for me   I just found it odd.  But that's the fun of converting some of these older creatures; some of them are pretty odd


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Works for me   I just found it odd.  But that's the fun of converting some of these older creatures; some of them are pretty odd




Indeed!


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## Mortis (Oct 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Slight revision...
> 
> Phazing (Sp): A phaze troll can instantly transfer itself from its current location to any other spot within range (640 ft.). This ability works exactly like the dimension door spell except that the phaze troll may take any remaining actions in the current round. The phaze troll can use this ability up to four times per day. (caster level 6th).
> 
> ...



Yup

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2007)

Looking good.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

I went with CR 4 as they don't seem any more powerful than the similar HD ice trolls and forest trolls, both CR 4.

We still need weight.  Normal trolls are 9 feet tall and weigh 500 pounds, while forest trolls are 6 to 6-1/2 feet tall and weigh 250 pounds.

Do we want to do anything with this?



> Their blood is valuable in the making of healing and mindaffecting magics, while their bones are helpful in fashioning magical items dealing with dimensional travel and illusions.


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## Mortis (Oct 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We still need weight.  Normal trolls are 9 feet tall and weigh 500 pounds, while forest trolls are 6 to 6-1/2 feet tall and weigh 250 pounds.



I reckon 400 pounds will be about right



> Do we want to do anything with this?
> 
> Their blood is valuable in the making of healing and mindaffecting magics, while their bones are helpful in fashioning magical items dealing with dimensional travel and illusions.



Flavour text.

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2007)

This all seems fine to me.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

Updated.   How's it look now?


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2007)

I'd say it looks done.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

*Giant Vampire Frog*
Written by Alan Fomorin
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 3-18
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 6”/18”
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2/1-2/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Drain blood
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The giant vampire frog is a particularly noxious reptile which grows to weights of up to thirty pounds. Its bile-green body is covered with mucous, and two transluscent membranes of slimy tissue connect its fore and rear limbs, enabling it to glide from treetop perches much as does a flying squirrel. Its forelimbs are fingered with small claws which enable the vampire frog to climb and to hold prey, and it possesses two large front teeth — each up to three inches long, sharp as needles, and hollow.

The frog hangs upside down in a treetop, camouflaged by its color. When a warm-blooded animal walks near its perch, the vampire frog releases its hold on the limb, extends its gliding membranes, and silently (gaining complete surprise) swoops down on its prey in a long, low glide. It extends its fangs and pierces the back of the neck of the victim like a double-headed arrow. At the same time, it begins to entwine its body in the prey’s hair, aided in adhesion by the mucous body slime. It grabs on to the prey’s ears with its clawed feet, fastens its mouth around the point of the wounds, and, hanging upside down, sucks the victim’s blood for an automatic 1-4 points of damage per round.

These creatures have a good armor class rating because of their rubbery hides and the violent gyrations their victims undergo after being bitten.  Also because of the victim’s thrashing around, there is a 50% chance that any blow aimed at the vampire frog — by its
current victim or another character — will hit the victim instead, doing full normal damage. If the victim does not take the full brunt of such a blow, there is still a 30% chance (roll again) that the vampire frog will only absorb half of the damage from the hit and, because the frog adheres so closely to the victim’s body, the victim will also suffer half damage. 

Fortunately, these repulsive creatures only inhabit swamp areas overgrown with large trees. To date, no one has found a redeeming quality in them.

From Dragon Magazine #50 (1981)


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2007)

Mmmm, lovely.  I hope we can do as good a job making these sound disgusting as the original flavor text does.

I'd say improved grab is a must for this one.  So once it hits, it grapples the victim.  Probably max out Move Silently also.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

I meant to put this one in the Frogs n' Toads thread, but no biggee...it is from Dragon Magazine after all.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2007)

So let's get started!

Improved Grab, blood sucking a la the stirge.  Max out move silently.  Probably +3/+4 in natural armor, depending on Dex.  What do you think?


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## Mortis (Nov 13, 2007)

And a glide ability.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

Here's a recent glide ability to model after:

Gliding: A hadozee can use its wings to glide, negating any damage from a fall of any height and allowing travel 20 feet horizontally for every 5 feet of descent. A hadozee glides at a speed of 40 feet (poor maneuverability). 

I think Attach, like the stirge, might work better than Improved Grab considering their size.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2007)

Ahh, should have looked at the stirge.  Yes, I agree with attach.

The glide looks good.  Do we even need to tweak the speeds?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> The glide looks good.  Do we even need to tweak the speeds?




Yep.  Its fly speed converts to 50 feet.  We can keep the poor maneuverability, though.

Here's the relevant stirge bits...

Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.

Blood Drain (Ex): A stirge drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. Once it has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the stirge’s appetite has been sated, the stirge detaches and seeks a new target.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2007)

Blood drain is probably good as it is, except the frog will hop off rather than fly away.  Attach is also pretty good once we change the flavor text and AC.  I think we should add the grapple bonus to the frog, also, and maybe remind people that attacking the frog gives a risk of damaging the victim per the grapple rules.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Blood drain is probably good as it is, except the frog will hop off rather than fly away.  Attach is also pretty good once we change the flavor text and AC.  I think we should add the grapple bonus to the frog, also, and maybe remind people that attacking the frog gives a risk of damaging the victim per the grapple rules.




Good call.  Maybe increase the chances of hitting the victim beyond the normal grapple rules?


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## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Good call.  Maybe increase the chances of hitting the victim beyond the normal grapple rules?



Sounds plausible, but I'd like to see the official rule for it.  I checked the SRD under Grapple, but I could not find it.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Sounds plausible, but I'd like to see the official rule for it.  I checked the SRD under Grapple, but I could not find it.




It's a bit buried.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#favorableandUnfavorableConditions

Look on the Table: Armor Class Modifiers.

"Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. That defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC."


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## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It's a bit buried.
> 
> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#favorableandUnfavorableConditions
> 
> ...




Since it's "roll randomly", we could state something like: "40% chance of hitting frog, 60% chance of hitting target frog is attached to".


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

That could work.

Let's figure out the ability scores so we can get this fella rolling.

Stats for the Medium monstrous frog and killer frog:

Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 10
Str 11, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 4

Downsizing them to Small gives us a range of...

Str 7-12, Dex 14-16, Con 10-16, Int 1, Wis 10-14, Cha 4-10


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## dhaga (Nov 15, 2007)

Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Init 1, Wis 11, Cha 7?

Could give it Weapon Finesse so it can use its Dex for its touch attacks.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

Should the bite attack be the primary attack instead?


----------



## freyar (Nov 16, 2007)

I think bite should be the primary attack, and, given the original text, attach ought to be triggered with a successful bite (at least following a glide).


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I think bite should be the primary attack, and, given the original text, attach ought to be triggered with a successful bite (at least following a glide).




Well put.

Updated Homebrews.

Organization: x (3–18)
Challenge Rating: x
Advancement: x


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2007)

Anyone know if a group of vampires has a particular name?  Otherwise, maybe the organization should be flock, flight, or colony?

CR: 1?
Advancement: 3-4HD Small, 5-6HD Medium
3ft long


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Anyone know if a group of vampires has a particular name?  Otherwise, maybe the organization should be flock, flight, or colony?




The vampire spawn uses "pack".



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> CR: 1?
> Advancement: 3-4HD Small, 5-6HD Medium
> 3ft long




That all looks about right.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

Vampire bats live in "colonies".

We still need skills (it has 5 ranks).   I can see Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot.

I think it should gain a racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks.

Should we give it an ability for sensing warm-blooded creatures?  Something like...

Bloodsense (Ex):  A vampire frog can sense the presence of warm-blooded creatures.  This ability functions like blindsense, but does not work against constructs, elementals, oozes, undead and other creatures that lack blood.


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2007)

Let's go with colony.

Let's split the ranks between spot and listen and give the racial bonus to hide and move silently.  

Bloodsense seems good, but I'm not sure if it's necessary.  Could go either way, or it could simply be a racial bonus to spot vs warm-blooded creatures.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

Let's modify this from the giant owl, since it seems to fit the "stealth glide" approach...

*When in flight, giant owls gain a +8 bonus on Move Silently checks.

We can leave off the bloodsense, since most other bloodsuckers lack a similar ability or bonus to noticing warm-blooded creatures.

Updated Homebrews.   

Do we want to give them the usual frog racial bonus on Jump checks?

Otherwise, are we finished?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Do we want to give them the usual frog racial bonus on Jump checks?



I don't think so.


> Otherwise, are we finished?



Yes 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

While we're going construct crazy, let's finish up another that I had nearly finished awhile back.

Golem, Hammer 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean (dwarven kingdoms)
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: None (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 6, Br 6
HIT DICE: 60 hp (14 HD)
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d10/2d12
SPECIAL ATTACK: Pounding force
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 weapon needed
to hit it, immune to spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See text
SIZE: L (9' tall)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 13,000

The nightmare of orcs and other dwarven enemies, this rare golem is constructed by dwarves themselves (though there have been instances in history of powerful High Ones creating clay golems).

The process is as rare and secretively kept as the manufacture of the most powerful ddwarven magical weapons. The hammer golem is definitely created by dwarven priests (or High Ones in the Forgotten Realms-see FR11 Dwarves Deep).

A hammer golem stands about 9' tall and weighs about 2,000 lbs. It resembles a gigantic stone dwarf (beard included) covered in adamantite plate mail. Its forearms have been replaced by two weapons--a hammer on the right arm and a pickaxe or axe on its left.
A hammer golem moves heavily and slowly. When encountering orcs and their kin, it gives out a hollow roar as it attacks.

Combat: This golem attacks only if ordered by its master, if it encounter orcs, or if it is kept from its assigned task. The latter condition allows it to attack if someone tries to get at what the golem is guarding when it is carrying out this task. 

It can remember as many commands as the creator wishes, but at most the commands must total up to only twice the creator's Wisdom in words.

When without a master, a hammer golem attacks anything in front of it until the opponents leave it or its charge alone or are dead. If the opponents are goblinoids, only their death or the golem's destruction will break off its attack.

This golem attacks with its pick, for 2d12 hp damage, and hammer, for 2d10 hp damage. In addition, it can employ a pounding force every turn. This is similar to a repulsion spell, except that, in addition to the usual effects, it inflicts 4d6 hp damage if the save fails, or
2d6 hp otherwise. 

A hammer golem is immune to every spell except for wish (which affects the golem as the
caster wants) and stone to flesh (which acts as a heal spell on the golem). In addition,
a weapon of +1 or more magical power is needed to hit this golem.

Habitat/Society: Hammer golems are made by dwarven priests (or High Ones in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting) for use as guards, warriors, or massive miners (they can tunnel through rock at MV 6). A hammer golem for war possesses an axe on the left arm, and one for mining has pickaxes on both.

Ecology: Hammer golems contribute nothing to deepearth ecology, except for the destruction of goblinoids and the mining of minerals. 

Originally appeared in Dragon #182 (1992) and MCA1.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

Here was the 3e conversion I did long ago...

Golem, Hammer
Large Construct
Hit Dice: 14d10 (77 hp)
Initiative: -1 (Dex)
Speed: 20 ft. (can't run), burrow 20 ft.
AC: 33 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +10 adamantine half-plate, +15 natural)
Attacks: Hammer +18 melee, pick +13 melee
Damage: Hammer 1d10+9 (crit x3), large pick 1d8+4 (crit x4) or greataxe 1d12+4 (crit x3)
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounding force
Special Qualities: Construct, magic immunity, damage reduction 20/+1
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 29, Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or gang (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 15-21 HD (Large); 22-42 HD (Huge)

The nightmare of orcs and other dwarven enemies, this rare golem is constructed by dwarves themselves. The process is as rare and secretively kept as the manufacture of the most powerful dwarven magical weapons. 

A hammer golem stands about 9' tall and weighs about 2,000 lbs. It resembles a gigantic stone dwarf (beard included) covered in adamantine half-plate. Its forearms have been replaced by two weapons - a hammer on the right arm and a pickaxe or axe on its left. 

Hammer golems are made by dwarven priests for use as guards, warriors, or massive miners (they can tunnel through rock at their burrow speed). A hammer golem created for war possesses a greataxe on the left arm, and one for mining has pickaxes on both.

Combat: 

This golem attacks only if ordered by its master, if it encounter orcs, or if it is kept from its assigned task. The latter condition allows it to attack if someone tries to get at what the golem is guarding when it is carrying out this task. When without a master, a hammer golem attacks anything in front of it until the opponents leave it or its charge alone or are dead. If the opponents are goblinoids, only their death or the golem's destruction will break off its attack.

Pounding Force (Su): A hammer golem can employ pounding force once per minute. The pounding force inflicts 4d6 points of damageand pushes away all creatures within 60 ft. of the hammer golem. Treat this as a bull rush with a +15 bonus on the Strength check (+9 for Strength 29, +4 for being Large, and +2 for charging bonus, which it always gets). The force always moves with the creature to push it back the full distance allowed, and it has no speed limit.

Construct: Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, disease, and similar effects. Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage.

Magic Immunity (Ex): A hammer golem is immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, except as follows. A wish spell affects the golem as the caster wants. A stone to flesh spell restores the golem to full hit points.

Converted from Dragon Magazine #193 (Live Statues and Stone Men: Golems of the Underdark by John Power) 

NOTES:
*The pounding force ability used to have the effects of a repulsion spell. However, this spell has changed drasticallly from 2e to 3e, so in order to capture the feel of the ability, I changed it to be similar to a Bigby's forceful hand spell and the ring of the ram.

The golem costs 100,000 gp to create, including 1,500 gp for the body and 11,200 gp for the adamantine half-plate. Assembling the body requires a successful Craft (sculpting or masonry) check (DC 20). The ritual requires a 16th-level dwarven creator who can cast divine spells. Completing the ritual drains 2,000 XP from the creator and requires animate objects, geas/quest, repulsion, prayer, and spiritual hammer.



I did this conversion in January '02, so we might need to start over.


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

For starters, it is exactly the same HD and size as a stone golem.   Shall we just use the stone golem's ability scores (as I did the first time)?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For starters, it is exactly the same HD and size as a stone golem.   Shall we just use the stone golem's ability scores (as I did the first time)?



I think that it is just a modified Stone Golem anyway, so all we have to do is add the adamantine armor and replace the slam attacks with hammer and pick (or axe).

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I think that it is just a modified Stone Golem anyway, so all we have to do is add the adamantine armor and replace the slam attacks with hammer and pick (or axe).




And work out the pounding force, of course.    

Upsizing weapons to Large...

Warhammer 1d8/x3 --> 2d6/x3
Heavy pick 1d6/x4 --> 1d8/x4
Battleaxe 1d8/x3 --> 2d6/x3

These are all significantly less that the 2d10 damage provided by the stone golem's slams, but do provide greater crit multipliers and variable damage types.  If this still seems too low, we could do the following:

Maul 1d10/x3 --> 2d8/x3
Dire pick 1d8/x4 --> 2d6/x4
Greataxe 1d12/x3 --> 3d6/x3

Adamantine half-plate armor would provide +7 armor bonus, -6 check penalty, and damage reduction 3/-.


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> And work out the pounding force, of course.



Missed that - it should probably replace the Stone Golem's slow ability.



> Maul 1d10/x3 --> 2d8/x3
> Dire pick 1d8/x4 --> 2d6/x4
> Greataxe 1d12/x3 --> 3d6/x3




In my (warped) mind the weapons looked big, so I vote for the versions based on the 2H weapons - another option could be to use normal sized 2H weapons but in 1H (with maybe a special ability covering it). So

Maul 1d10/x3
Dire pick 1d8/x4
Greataxe 1d12/x3

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Since they'll essentially become natural attacks, we shouldn't need a special ability to justify oversized weapons.    



> This golem attacks with its pick, for 2d12 hp damage, and hammer, for 2d10 hp damage.




I think the oversized maul/pickaxe/greataxe will yield the closest damage here, so I'll go with your (warped) mind.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

> In addition, it can employ a pounding force every turn. This is similar to a repulsion spell, except that, in addition to the usual effects, it inflicts 4d6 hp damage if the save fails, or 2d6 hp otherwise.




Does this still suffice?

Pounding Force (Su): A hammer golem can employ pounding force once per minute. The pounding force inflicts 4d6 points of damage and pushes away all creatures within 60 ft. of the hammer golem. Treat this as a bull rush with a +15 bonus on the Strength check (+9 for Strength 29, +4 for being Large, and +2 for charging bonus, which it always gets). The force always moves with the creature to push it back the full distance allowed, and it has no speed limit.



> A hammer golem is immune to every spell except for wish (which affects the golem as the caster wants) and stone to flesh (which acts as a heal spell on the golem).




Immunity to Magic (Ex): A hammer golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A wish spell affects the golem normally, even if duplicating a spell to which the golem would otherwise be immune.

A stone to flesh spell repairs all of the golem's lost hit points.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

Thoughts?


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

A stone golem weighs 2,000 pounds.

A suit of half-plate sized for a Large creature weighs 100 pounds.

A Large warhammer weighs 10 lbs., while a Large heavy pick weighs 12 pounds.

So 2,132 pounds?   Round up to 2,200 for the slightly larger weaponry?


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## Mortis (Dec 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Round up to 2,200 for the slightly larger weaponry?



I like

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Cr 12?


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## Mortis (Dec 11, 2007)

I think 12 is fine - its better than a standard stone golem but not by too much.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Updated.

Construction?



> A stone golem’s body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 17 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 17 Craft (stonemasonry) check.
> 
> CL 14th; Craft Construct, antimagic field, geas/quest, slow, symbol of stunning, caster must be at least 14th level; Price 90,000 gp; Cost 50,000 gp + 3,400 XP.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Maybe...

A stone golem’s body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp.  Additionally, a suit of adamantine half-plate and a pair of weapons sized for a Large creature are needed (totalling 12,000 gp).  Assembling the body requires a DC 17 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 17 Craft (stonemasonry) check.

CL 14th; Craft Construct, antimagic field, geas/quest, repulsion, stone shape, caster must be a dwarf and at least 14th level; Price 90,000 gp; Cost 53,500 gp + 3,600 XP.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Also...



> Hammer golems are made by dwarven priests (or High Ones in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting) for use as guards, warriors, or massive miners (they can tunnel through rock at MV 6). A hammer golem for war possesses an axe on the left arm, and one for mining has pickaxes on both.




Hammer golems (at least those with two picks) should be able to burrow through rock at their burrow speed.   Ability or flavor text?   Should we allow those with only one pick to burrow through rock at half burrow speed?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

RavinRay posted this in another thread.  We can modify this for the hammer golem:

Tunneling (Ex): Li lungs can burrow through solid stone at a speed of 5 feet.

As I mentioned above, hammer golems (at least those with two picks) should be able to burrow through rock at their burrow speed. Ability or flavor text? Should we allow those with only one pick to burrow through rock at half burrow speed?


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## Mortis (Dec 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Tunneling (Ex): Li lungs can burrow through solid stone at a speed of 5 feet.
> 
> As I mentioned above, hammer golems (at least those with two picks) should be able to burrow through rock at their burrow speed. Ability or flavor text? Should we allow those with only one pick to burrow through rock at half burrow speed?



Do we need to clarify whether or not the tunnel remains or collapses behind the golem?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Borrowed this from RavinRay's suggestion in the true dragons thread...

Tunneling (Ex): A hammer golem can burrow through solid stone at a speed of 5 feet, leaving behind an intact tunnel.  A hammer golem designed for mining (with picks for both hands) can tunnel at its burrow speed.

Look good?


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Updated.

All done?


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## Mortis (Dec 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> All done?



Looks like it. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

*Koodjanuk*
Created by Roger Moore
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVE: 21”/42”
HIT DICE: 8 + (1-4)
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: G, T, X
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12 or 4-16/4-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: + 2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 75%
INTELLIGENCE: Genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
SIZE: L (30’ wingspan)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 80-110
Attack/Defense Modes: All/All
EXPERIENCE POINT VALUE: 3800 + 12/HP

The koodjanuk is a creature from one of the Upper Planes, possibly Elysium. It is  encountered on the Prime Material Plane in subarctic or arctic conditions and makes its lair on mountain peaks. Koodjanuks are sometimes worshipped by tribesmen in these cold climates, and are loved for their beneficial nature. They appear to be large birds of prey, with white-feathered bodies, black heads, and great hooked beaks.

Koodjanuks use Clerical spells at the 12th level of ability. They may use seven 1st-level spells, six 2nd-level spells, five 3rd, four 4th, three 5th, two 6th, and one 7th-level spell per day; these should be rolled up randomly by the DM. When approaching a party of  adventurers, these creatures will Detect alignment automatically on the members, checking a maximum of one character per round unless there are fairly large parties involved, Good-aligned characters with any injuries will be touched by the koodjanuk, who can Cure wounds by touch as if an 8th-level Paladin had laid hands on that character (i.e., 16 points of damage may be cured per touch). The koodjanuk can do this three times a day, and may also decide to use some of its regular curative spells if it has any that day. A koodjanuk cannot use the reversed (and usually evil) forms of its spells, such as Darkness or Cause  wounds.

Koodjanuks ignore neutrals, neither harming or helping them (though they might give directions and advice). Evil beings, however, will usually be attacked physically (beak attack if on the ground or claw attack if in the air). magically (with Flame strike, Insect plague, or the like, if available), or psionically (if the Evil beings it fights are psionic). There is a 5% chance that upon meeting a Good-aligned character, the koodjanuk will offer him/her a gift of some kind, possibly a small amount of money, and on rare occasions a magic item that the character can use.

Koodjanuks are on excellent terms with the other beings of the Upper Planes (such as titans, ki-rin, lammasu, and the like), and there is a 15% chance that they will be found with these beings if encountered randomly in a cold climate. They have been known to serve on occasion as intermediaries between Good-aligned characters and their deities.

From Dragon Magazine #44 (1980)


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2007)

Outsider, clearly.  Cold subtype?

Spellcasting (Su): Koodjanuks cast spells as 12th level clerics (which stacks with any actual cleric levels).  Like good-aligned clerics, they may not cast spells with the evil descriptor.

Healing touch (Su): A koodjanuk may heal any character of 2d8 (+cha bonus?) hit points of damage by touch up to 3x/day.  This ability is the equivalent of a X level spell.

How's that for a start?  Also, where did the bit about psionics all of a sudden come from?  Should we just ditch that?


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Outsider, clearly.  Cold subtype?




Funny, I was thinking Magical Beast (extraplanar) like the lammasu, shedu, and ki-rin.   



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Spellcasting (Su): Koodjanuks cast spells as 12th level clerics (which stacks with any actual cleric levels).  Like good-aligned clerics, they may not cast spells with the evil descriptor.




That sounds about right.

[







			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Healing touch (Su): A koodjanuk may heal any character of 2d8 (+cha bonus?) hit points of damage by touch up to 3x/day.  This ability is the equivalent of a X level spell.




We could probably just use lay on hands (like the guardinals).



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> How's that for a start?  Also, where did the bit about psionics all of a sudden come from?  Should we just ditch that?




Nah.  Let's do a "psionic kookjanuk" sidebar which swaps out the cleric spellcastering with psion manifestation.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Funny, I was thinking Magical Beast (extraplanar) like the lammasu, shedu, and ki-rin.
> ...
> We could probably just use lay on hands (like the guardinals).
> ...
> Nah.  Let's do a "psionic koodjanuk" sidebar which swaps out the cleric spellcastering with psion manifestation.




Actually, that all sounds good.  What actually makes the difference between an outsider and a Magical Beast (extraplanar) flavorwise, anyway?  Also, I'm not so happy with the cold subtype, but I wouldn't mind good potentially.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

No real clear difference.  It seems like outsiders are more often the embodiments of their plane, while the extraplanar magical beasts just happen to reside there.

Giant eagles, dire eagles, dire vultures, hippogriffs, and giant owls have 20 foot wingspans.  A griffon has a 25 foot wingspan.  All are size Large.  A roc has an 80 foot wingspan and is Gargantuan.   I'm thinking Large for these creatures as well.

Ability scores of comparable creatures:

Lammasu (L):  Str 23, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 14
Shedu (L):  Str 19, Dex 11, Con 17, Int 22, Wis 18, Cha 16
Ki-rin (H):  Str 26, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 19, Wis 21, Cha 23
Giant Eagle (L): Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Giant Owl (L): Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Griffon (L): Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 8
Hippogriff (L): Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8

Genius intelligence converts to 17-18.  It should have high Wis and Cha for its cleric and psion powers.

So maybe Str 18, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 18?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

That sounds reasonable, though I could see Huge instead of Large if we want to push it.   We could drop Cha a little if we want, since the psion mostly needs Int instead.  But I don't have a problem with the high Cha, either.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I statted them up as Large, but upon review we could raise them to Huge.  Or, we could just set the advancement to immediately go to Huge like some other creatures.

I followed the 2 claws and bite routine of the giant eagle.

Damage reduction x/magic?



> When approaching a party of adventurers, these creatures will Detect alignment automatically on the members, checking a maximum of one character per round unless there are fairly large parties involved.




How's this?

Discern Alignment (Su):  A koodjanuk can continually detect the alignment of any creatures as if under the effects of detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, and detect law spells.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

Looks good so far.  DR 10/magic?  I could see going down to 5 since the CR is probably not going to be more than 6-7.  Discern alignment sounds good.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

> Good-aligned characters with any injuries will be touched by the koodjanuk, who can Cure wounds by touch as if an 8th-level Paladin had laid hands on that character (i.e., 16 points of damage may be cured per touch). The koodjanuk can do this three times a day, and may also decide to use some of its regular curative spells if it has any that day.




Lay on hands = paladin level x Charisma bonus.  In this case that would be 8 x 4 = 32.  Since this is already double what the 1e paladin could have cured (16) in one attempt, is that sufficient?   Alternatively, we could raise the effective paladin level to 12, to equal the 48 points the 1e paladin could have cured with three touches per day.



> Koodjanuks are on excellent terms with the other beings of the Upper Planes (such as titans, ki-rin, lammasu, and the like), and there is a 15% chance that they will be found with these beings if encountered randomly in a cold climate.




Organization:  Solitary or "blessed union" (1 koodjanuk plus 1 titan, ki-rin, or lammasu)?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

It's only 9HD, so let's leave it at 32hp. Organization looks good.  

Skills and feats: Listen, Spot, Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (religion)?, Diplomacy, ?
Hover?, Maximize Spell, Empower Spell?, Spell Focus (?)?


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

I'd add Concentration and Sense Motive to that list.  Maybe even Heal.

Let's decide on maneuverability before we determine if Hover is needed.

Giant owl, giant eagle, pegasus, griffon, roc, and hippogriff are all average.  So, average?


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

I thought about Heal, then dropped it due to the magical healing.  Those skills sound good.

Average sounds right.  So then hover makes some sense.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2007)

Since they cast as 12th-level clerics, I'd peg them around CR 12.

Treasure G,T,X breaks down as follows:

G:
10-40 1,000s of gold pieces: 50%
1-20 100s of platinum pieces: 50%
5-20 gems: 30%
1-10 jewelry: 25%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 4 plus 1 scroll: 35%

T: 
Maps or Magic Items: 1-4 scrolls: 50%

X:
Maps or Magic Items: 1 misc. magic plus 1 potion: 60%

That kinda looks like Double coins; double goods; standard items, eh?

Alignment: Always (?) neutral good

Advancement: 10-18 HD (Huge); 19-27 HD (Gargantuan)

Note that a 19 HD roc is Gargantuan.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

Sounds good.  I'd also go with always for the alignment.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2007)

> Koodjanuks use Clerical spells at the 12th level of ability. They may use seven 1st-level spells, six 2nd-level spells, five 3rd, four 4th, three 5th, two 6th, and one 7th-level spell per day; these should be rolled up randomly by the DM.






> Good-aligned characters with any injuries will be touched by the koodjanuk, who can Cure wounds by touch as if an 8th-level Paladin had laid hands on that character (i.e., 16 points of damage may be cured per touch). The koodjanuk can do this three times a day, and may also decide to use *some of its regular curative spells * if it has any that day. A koodjanuk cannot use the reversed (and usually evil) forms of its spells, such as Darkness or Cause wounds.






> Koodjanuks ignore neutrals, neither harming or helping them (though they might give directions and advice). Evil beings, however, will usually be attacked physically (beak attack if on the ground or claw attack if in the air). magically (with *Flame strike, Insect plague*, or the like, if available), or psionically (if the Evil beings it fights are psionic).




Typical cleric spells prepared:
6th--2+1 
5th--3+1 
4th--4+1 
3rd--5+1 
2nd--5+1 
1st--6+1 
0--6 

Good and Healing domains?


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

Remember that they can cast cure spells spontaneously, since they cast like good clerics. Good and healing domains sound about right.  Prepped spells (do we need to add bonus spells?):

0(6) -- Purify Food and Drink, Detect Poison (x2), Detect Magic, Read Magic, Resistance
1(6+1) -- Bless, Comprehend Languages, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Protection from Evil, Remove Fear; Cure Light Wounds
2(5+1) -- Aid, Align Weapon (good), Calm Emotions, Lesser Restoration, Status; Cure Moderate Wounds
3(5+1) -- Create Food and Water, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Remove Disease, Magic Vestment; Magic Circle Against Evil
4(4+1) -- Control Water, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Sending; Cure Critical Wounds
5(3+1) -- Break Enchantment, Hallow, Raise Dead; Dispel Evil
6(2+1) -- Banishment, Wind Walk; Heal

Edit: Finished.  I erred on the side of protective and curative spells, rather than offensive ones.  Any comments?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

I'd like to work in flame strike and insect plague (since they were specifically mentioned), and probably a few other offensive spells since they fight evil with magic.

Suggested revision...

0(6) -- Purify Food and Drink, Detect Poison (x2), Detect Magic, Read Magic, Resistance
1(6+1) -- Bless, Comprehend Languages, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Remove Fear, Shield of Faith; Protection from Evil
2(5+1) -- Align Weapon (good), Calm Emotions, Lesser Restoration, Shield Other, Status; Aid
3(5+1) -- Create Food and Water, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Remove Disease, Magic Vestment; Magic Circle Against Evil
4(4+1) -- Control Water, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Sending; Holy smite
5(3+1) -- Flame strike, insect plague, Raise Dead; Dispel Evil
6(2+1) -- Banishment, Wind Walk; Heal

I replaced most of the Healing domain spells  with those from the Good domain.  Since it can cast spontaneously, they aren't really needed otherwise.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

Hehehe, I missed those spells.  Need to read more carefully.  The reasoning on the healing domain spells was to give a greater number of healing spells (at higher level) or when the good spells seemed to offensively oriented.  Looks pretty good now.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

Updated.

Let's revisit the feats:  Empower Spell, Hover, Maximize Spell, Spell Focus (?)

If we're gonna use those metamagic feats, we'll need to represent them on the spell list.

Spell Penetration would probably be more useful than Spell Focus, since few of the spells allow saves, and many of the evil opponents they'd be fighting would probably have spell resistance.

For Psionic Koodjanuks, I'd recommend we simply add psi-like abilities rather than replacing divine spellcasting with psion manifestation.   The divine magic is simply too important to their nature.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

Spell Penetration vs Focus sounds good to me.  Maximize and Empower are fine to change, but not much else really struck me as appropriate unless we want to go for a +2 on 2 kind of feat.

I agree with the psionics, since that sounds like the original intent.  Maybe just enough to bump CR+1?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

For the feats, how about Flyby Attack, Greater Spell Penetration, Hover, Spell Penetration?

Here are the Attack/Defense Modes and Equivalent 3.5 Powers:

Ego Whip (2nd, save)

Empty Mind (1st, no save)

Id Insinuation (2nd, save)

Intellect Fortress (4th, no save)

Mind Blast = Psionic blast (3rd, save)

Mind Thrust (1st, save)

Mental Barrier (3rd, no save)

Psychic Crush (5th, save)

Thought Shield (2nd, no save)

Tower of Iron Will (5th, save [harmless])

Since the koodjanuk had all, we could simply change them all into psi-like abilities and make the lower-level ones at will, and the higher ones 3/day or 1/day.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

Sure, let's give it all of them, with the 1st and 2nd level ones at will, 3rd & 4th level ones 3/day, and 5th level ones 1/day.  What do you think for the CR bump of that?  +2?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

I think it will only increase the CR by 1, since they can only be used 1/round, and not in the same round as spells.

Finished?


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2007)

Looks done to me!   At this rate, I feel like we can actually get all the conversions finished!  'Course, we'd need to do 4-something a day to finish in a year...


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## Echohawk (Dec 21, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> 'Course, we'd need to do 4-something a day to finish in a year...



Relax. To finish in a year would only require _3.9_ a day .


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2007)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> Relax. To finish in a year would only require _3.9_ a day .




Oh, well, seems like there will be plenty of people sticking with 3.X to enjoy the fruits of our labors for a while still.


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2008)

Here's one I've been wanting to tackle for awhile.    

This is from the Demon Generation article.

All demons have the following properties:
a) Hit dice and Gate Ability appropriate to their level.
b) Vunerability to normal weapons at Level III or less, but magical weapons only at higher levels.
c) Magic Resistance of 50% at Level I, which increases by 5% for each additional level of the demon.
d) Special abilities as determined on the tables below. Note that no demon may have both fire and ice powers.

EXAMPLE: Putting it all together, I shall now create Nasthrapur, a 6th level demon. Assume the following rolls: LI 2,6,6; LII 1,1,10; LIII 10,12,12; LIV 10,12; LV 4,10; LVI 5. Since a roll for MU level came up “3”, the demon has the MU capabilities of a 12th Level MU/Cleric.

LEVEL I: Darkness 5’ radius.
Magic Missiles (from 2-6 per day possible. Assume 4.)

LEVEL II: Fear, twice the normal range (of wand). -2 on saving throws. Read magic.

LEVEL III: Hypnotise as Illusionist.
Regenerate (2-6 pts per melee round. Assume 5 points)

LEVEL IV:  Firestorm, l/day. (Since whether the demon has fire or ice powers has not been determined, this was decided randomly.)  Magic Resistance raised to 80%.

LEVEL V: Fireball of 12 dice.  Magic Resistance raised to 90%.

LEVEL VI: Mass Charm. In addition, he receives the normal benefits of being a 6th Level
demon: eight 10-sided hit dice, a 70% chance of gating in a Level 3 or 4 demon, and can be hit by magic weapons only.

Assume his appearance is a cross between a Red Dragon and Wild Cattle. Such a creature might have a bull’s head and hooves, but a scaly body and leathery wings. A dragon’s taloned forelegs take the place of arms. This combination will give the demon the following special abilities: bite/butt/claw attacks, flight, and a breath weapon of fire usable
three times per day that does 24 points of damage (assuming the dragon maturity roll was a 2).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #13 (1978).


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2008)

So as a "Type VI" demon, we'll be using a balor as the base stats.

So...

20 HD
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 25, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26

We can play with those ability scores if we'd like, but that will provide a baseline.


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## Shroomy (Jan 3, 2008)

Is this supposed to be a race of demons or a unique demon?


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Is this supposed to be a race of demons or a unique demon?




It could be either, as it was just a sample creature.  Since the article also allowed for the creation of princes, I'd prefer to go with a race of demons.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't think I understand the example.  Does this have all the special abilities listed under all the levels?


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes.  Quite a few other abilities were available.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yes.  Quite a few other abilities were available.




That's what it sounded like, but I wasn't sure if that was part of the tables...


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—deeper darkness, fireball (DC 20), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), hypnotism (DC 18), magic missile; 1/day—fire storm (DC 26), mass charm monster (DC 26). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

The double-strength fear with the save penalty could probably be best represented with a modified form of the pit fiend's fear aura:

Fear Aura (Su): A nasthrapur can radiate a 20-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC X Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 18th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same nasthrapur's aura for 24 hours. Other demons are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.   I used much of the balor as a placeholder.  We can adjust the ability scores to differentiate a bit.  



> This combination will give the demon the following special abilities: bite/butt/claw attacks, flight, and a breath weapon of fire usable
> three times per day that does 24 points of damage (assuming the dragon maturity roll was a 2).




Assuming an age category 2 (very young) red dragon, that should be a 40-ft. cone of 4d10 fire damage.  Do we want to stick with 3/day or change it to once every 1d4 rounds like dragons?


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2008)

Is this supposed to be a hybrid or related to dragons in some way?  If so, let's go with 1d4 rounds.  Otherwise, let's leave it at 3/day.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Is this supposed to be a hybrid or related to dragons in some way?  If so, let's go with 1d4 rounds.  Otherwise, let's leave it at 3/day.




Not a true hybrid...just a way to determine abilities randomly.   We can stick with 3/day.

What do you think about adjusting the ability scores?


----------



## freyar (Jan 4, 2008)

Not much to go on here, really.  From the description, I'd say bump STR and decrease DEX, maybe by 2 or 4 each.  Seems pretty bestial, too, so maybe drop INT a bit, also.  Not sure about the other stats.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Not much to go on here, really.  From the description, I'd say bump STR and decrease DEX, maybe by 2 or 4 each.  Seems pretty bestial, too, so maybe drop INT a bit, also.  Not sure about the other stats.




Sounds good.  The general lack of depth on these guys is one of the reasons I was excited to convert them...I always relish a chance to essentially create a new demon.   

Here's some descriptive text I came up...

_This demon has a broad, scaly body atop thick legs ending in dark hooves.  It has the head of a bull, taloned arms like those of a dragon, and large leather wings.  Smoke trickles from its nostrils, and its eyes burn like glowing embers._

Based on its appearance, perhaps it is rumored to be a creation of Baphomet in the Tower of Science?

Looking at its abilities, it focuses on fire, force, and cham/fascination.  We can probably run with that to flesh it out further.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2008)

> All demons have the following properties:
> a) Hit dice and Gate Ability appropriate to their level.




It has "a 70% chance of gating in a Level 3 or 4 demon".

Type 3 = glabrezu
Type 4 = nalfeshnee

A balor has...

Summon Tanar'ri (Sp): Once per day a nasthrapur can automatically summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrous, or one nalfeshnee, glabrezu, marilith, or balor. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.

Since he could easily be linked to Baphoment, maybe mix it up like so:

Summon Tanar'ri (Sp): Once per day a nasthrapur can automatically summon 1d6 bulezaus, or summon one nalfeshnee, glabrezu, or goristro with a 70% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2008)

Sounds good to me!  Should we stick the PI demons in a sidebar?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Sounds good to me!  Should we stick the PI demons in a sidebar?




Eh?  PI?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2008)

Oh, sorry, Product Identity.  I meant bulezau and goristo because they're not in the SRD.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Ahhh...I see now.  I always see "IP" (Intellectual Property) used for that.  Same letters, different order.    

Nah, I think there's enough conversions of those critters floating around that people can find them if they need them.   I suppose we could add parenthetically to replace bulezaus with 1d4 hezrous and goristro with a marilith.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2008)

Sounds reasonable, then.  What's next on this one?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Skills: 13 at 23 ranks
Balance 23, Bluff 23, Concentration 23, Diplomacy 23, Intimidate 23, Listen 23, Knowlege (the planes) 23, Search 23, Sense Motive 23, Spellcraft 23, Spot 23, Tumble 23, Use Magic Device 23

Feats: 7
Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (gore), Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fireball, magic missle)?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2008)

Looks reasonable to me.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or strike force (one nasthrapur and 1d6 bulezaus or 1-2 goristroi)

Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2008)

Wow, almost done!  Your suggestions look good to me.  You're quite the conversion machine!


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Most greater demons have either a true seeing or see invisibility ability (the goristro has see invis).  Do we want to do that for them?   

Anything else left?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2008)

Let's give them true seeing, unless you just feel like distinguishing them a little more from balors.  I don't see anything left to do off-hand.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Sounds good.  I think we're done.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Another from the requests bin...

*Poltergeist*
Created by Craig Stenseth
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: -3
MOVE: 12"
HIT DICE: 6
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: C, Q x 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 65%
INTELLlGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
SIZE: S (3'+ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense modes: Nil

Poltergeists are the spirits of chaotic gnomes from Limbo and Gladsheim sent to the Prime Material Plane to spread the influence of chaos. They enjoy jokes and tricks, and their magical nature makes it difficult to do anything to stop them. And when they are provoked by someone trying to spoil their chaotic fun, they become as single-minded in their purpose as a berserker. 

Poltergeists can use several spells of an illusionary nature. At will, they can perform the following feats of magic, at the 8th level of spell-use ability: Audible glamer, Hypnotism, Invisibility and Ventriloquism. They have infravision (60') and can teleport with no chance of error up to once per turn.  The creatures are immune to cold-based attacks and are  unaffected by charm, hold and sleep spells and attack forms. A poltergeist only takes half damage from electrical and fire-based attacks, which is reduced to one-fourth if it makes a
successful save.

Poltergeists will be armed as follows: 15% with club &sling, 30% with club & spear, 40% with short sword, 15% with short sword &spear. There is a 15% chance for any poltergeist carrying a club or sword that the weapon is magical (+1).

The chaotic nature of poltergeists makes it difficult to describe them in terms of general characteristics. They tend to show hatred for the same creatures that gnomes hate (goblins,
kobolds and orcs in particular), but will not hesitate to attack or beleaguer any character they encounter.

Poltergeists cannot be forever slain when encountered on the Prime Material plane; one whose body is killed will have its essence banished to Limbo or Gladsheim for a time and will then be able to reappear.

From Dragon Magazine #55 (1981).


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## Shroomy (Jan 10, 2008)

This is either an outsider or extraplanar undead.  Personally, I like outsider.


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2008)

I agree.  They seem like "greater petitioners".


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2008)

Int "High" is 13-14.  For ability scores, since they're based off gnomes, low Str, high Con?

Maybe Str 9, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 15?


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## freyar (Jan 11, 2008)

I'd say that sounds reasonable.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shroomy (Jan 11, 2008)

I almost think that _dimension door_ is more appropriate for them (btw, I hate these guys names, way too confusing) then _greater teleport_.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> I almost think that _dimension door_ is more appropriate for them (btw, I hate these guys names, way too confusing) then _greater teleport_.




Yeah, when we pitched them to Dragon, we renamed them "Zwergeists" to avoid confusion with the undead poltergeists.

Dim door indeed might be more appropriate.  Once per turn = 1/10 minutes.  Maybe lower it to 1/minute?


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2008)

1/min dim door sounds about right.  The other SLAs seem straightforward if audible glamer is ghost sound, which it surely seems to be.  Ghost sound, hypnotism, invisibility, and ventriloquism at will, CL 8.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2008)

Sounds good.

AC works out to 23.  It gets +1 size and currently +2 Dex.  I'd rather not give it +10 natural armor.  So I'd recommend raising Dex a bit and adding a deflection bonus to AC.  Thoughts?



> The creatures are immune to cold-based attacks and are unaffected by charm, hold and sleep spells and attack forms. A poltergeist only takes half damage from electrical and fire-based attacks, which is reduced to one-fourth if it makes a
> successful save.




Immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities?

Resistance to electricity and fire, or something similar to evasion for those energy types?


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2008)

Bump Dex and Cha by 4 each and give it a deflection bonus equal to its Cha bonus?

Also immune to cold.  I think usual resistances for electricity and fire are the easiest, and they are probably more in the spirit of the original than a weird evasion ability for only certain elements.  But I can be convinced otherwise.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2008)

Resistance 5 or 10?

DR 5/lawful?



> Poltergeists will be armed as follows: 15% with club &sling, 30% with club & spear, 40% with short sword, 15% with short sword &spear. There is a 15% chance for any poltergeist carrying a club or sword that the weapon is magical (+1).




I went with short sword and sling for the base block.   Do we want to make the sword +1 or masterwork?


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2008)

Let's go with resistance and DR 5.  I don't see these as being more than CR 4 or so, so I guess I'd go with masterwork for the default.  We're going to need a few notes about treasure, though. 

Do you want to rename the zwergeists and just say they were originally poltergeists?


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2008)

Sure, we can go with the rename to avoid confusion with the other poltergeists, and note the name change within.



> Poltergeists cannot be forever slain when encountered on the Prime Material plane; one whose body is killed will have its essence banished to Limbo or Gladsheim for a time and will then be able to reappear.




We can modify this...

Lie in State (Su): If both of Adimarchus's forms die, Adimarchus (in his current form) disappears after 24 rounds. The body reappears dead but intact on Occipitus, his home layer of the Abyss. Any equipment Adimarchus was wearing or carrying at the moment of his death is likewise transported to Occipitus--and is likewise reconstituted if it was destroyed. Dimensional anchor, dimensional lock, and similar spells delay the body's transportation in this manner, but once the spell's effect ends, the body transports to Occipitus immediately. After lying in state for 100 days on his home plane, both of Adimarchus's forms are restored to full life. If Adimarchus is slain on his home plane, he is dead forever.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2008)

Ok, then:

Petitioning (Su): If a zwergeist dies, its body disappears immediately. The body reappears dead but intact on its home plane (Limbo or Gladsheim). Any equipment the zwergeist was wearing or carrying at the moment of its death is likewise transported-- and is reconstituted if it was destroyed. Dimensional anchor, dimensional lock, and similar spells delay the body's transportation in this manner, but once the spell's effect ends, the body transports immediately. After petitioning higher powers on its home plane for 1d10 days, the zwergeist's soul is reunited with its body, returning it to full life. If a zwergeist is slain on its home plane, it is dead forever.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2008)

I like it, but would lean toward rebirth or rejuvenation for the ability name, since they were never specifically called out as petitioners (despite my opinion that they are a form of greater petitioner).


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2008)

Let's go with rejuvenation, I guess.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 90
Bluff 9, Concentration 9, Escape Artist 9, Hide 9, Listen 9, Move Silently 9, Sleight of Hand 9, Spot 9, Tumble 9?

Feats: Weapon Finesse, 2 more

A zwergeist is 3 feet tall and weighs about X pounds.  (20 pounds?)

Zwergeists speak Gnome, (Common?, Slaad?)

Organization: Solitary or jest? (2-4)

Challenge Rating: 4

Treasure: Half standard coins; double goods (gems); standard items? (had C and Qx5)

C:
1-12 1,000s of copper pieces: 20% 
1-6 1,000s of silver pieces: 30% 
1-4 1,000s of electrum pieces: 10%
1-6 gems: 25%
1-3 jewelry: 20%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 2: 10%

Q:
1-4 gems: 50%


Advancement: 7-18 HD (Small) or by character class?


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2008)

We need to max out another skill, maybe Diplomacy or Sense Motive?  Or maybe Balance is better.

Deft Hands, Persuasive for feats?

They should probably also speak Common, but Slaad would be much more amusing. 

I think the rest of your suggestions look good.


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## Shade (Jan 18, 2008)

Updated.

How's it look?


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2008)

I think you want "similarly-named" rather than "similarly-samed" creatures, but otherwise looks good!


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I think you want "similarly-named" rather than "similarly-samed" creatures, but otherwise looks good!




Good catch!


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Next!

*Colfel*
Created by Richard Lucas
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 3-10 (20-50)
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 7x8
% IN LAIR: 30%
TREASURE TYPE: G
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 6-16 or 2-5/2-5/1-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immunity to cold
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Saving throws as 21st-level magic-user
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The colfel, a native of the Negative Material plane, has appeared on the Prime Material only rarely in the recent past, probably due to summonings by powerful magicians desiring greater and more powerful servants. These creatures often compound their strength by banding together into large groups. Rarely will fewer than four or five be encountered.  Also, they are highly intelligent, and attack and react accordingly, so they are very dangerous monsters even when fighting vastly superior opposition.  A deadly tactic they often use is that of ganging up on just one member of a group of opponents, and attacking until this victim is dead before moving onto the next. Up to four colfel can attack one human-sized creature at the same time. 

Colfel usually attack first by charging into a melee and spearing with their horns. The second and subsequent attacks are claw/claw/bite routines.

Colfel have several attributes similar to those of the greater undead. The first is complete immunity to cold- or ice-based attacks of any form. (Colfel consider brown mold excellent food, and if they find a patch they will nurture it carefully.  There is a 5% chance on any encounter with colfel that a bed of brown mold will be nearby.) The second undeadlike
attribute is a low-strength energy drain that draws life energy equivalent to 1,000 experience points from an opponent each time the colfel scores a hit with one of its physical attacks.  

Colfel also have several weaknesses which, like their strengths, are related to their  association with the Negative Material plane. In direct sunlight or its equivalent, they suffer 1 point of damage per round they are exposed. For this reason they venture out of doors only at night, and are always found underground or in the deepest, darkest jungles or forests.  They take one and a half times normal damage from all kinds of fire.

Colfel also suffer damage directly from the following spells: light (3 hit points);  continual light (6 HP); faerie fire (1 HP per level of caster); pyrotechnics, fireworks form (12 HP); dancing lights (1d4 HP); co/or spray (2d8 HP); prismatic spray (4d6HP additional damage); sunburst, as from a wand of illumination (6d6HP); and prismatic sphere (or wall) (1 HP per segment if within 10”). Each spell except the prismatic sphere or prismatic wall is absorbed and negated when a colfel enters its area of effect. 

Proximity to normal fires is also damaging to these creatures; torches (2 HP each), lanterns (4 HP each), and bonfires (3d4 + 3 HP) are quenched and simultaneously injure a colfel when it approaches within 5 feet of one.

Physical description: The colfel is a large quadruped, about 6 feet long and standing 3 feet high at the shoulder. It has black. slimy, furless skin that appears very much like gangrenous flesh.  Its eyes are midnight black with starwhite pupils, and the nose is tipped by a pair of sharp prongs. A row of spikes runs down its knobby back.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #56 (1981).


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

When we pitched this creature to Dragon, we used the following query:

Colfel (Magical Beast, CR 6-10):  A 6-foot-long, 3-foot-high at the shoulder quadruped with black, slimy, furless skin that appears very much like gangrenous flesh.  Its eyes are midnight black with star-white pupils, and the nose is tipped by a pair of sharp prongs.  A row of spikes runs down its knobby back.   Colfels are native to the Negative Energy Plane.  They are immune to cold, vulnerable to fire, and take damage from natural light and light-based spells.  They can spear enemies with horns on a charge, and then claw/claw/bite.  They have a low-level energy drain.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Looks like a good place to start.  Magical Beast (Extraplanar), 7HD?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Sounds good.  The thing somewhat resembles a beetle.  For physical ability score comparisons, here are some similarly-sized beetles:

Giant Bombardier Beetle:  Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 9
Lesser Knell Beetle:  Str 18, Dex 12, Con 18, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 11

High int translates to 13-14.

Maybe Str 15, Dex 11, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 13?


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Looks reasonable.  Standard energy drain dealing 1 negative level per melee touch (Cha-based Fort save after 24 hours) and 5 hp per negative level dealt?


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> MAGIC RESISTANCE: Saving throws as 21st-level magic-user




Grant it a racial bonus on all saving throws? 



> The colfel, a native of the Negative Material plane, has appeared on the Prime Material only rarely in the recent past, probably due to summonings by powerful magicians desiring greater and more powerful servants.




We'll want to include the summon monster level for these creatures.



> Colfel usually attack first by charging into a melee and spearing with their horns. The second and subsequent attacks are claw/claw/bite routines.




Powerful charge ability (like triceratops)?



> (Colfel consider brown mold excellent food, and if they find a patch they will nurture it carefully.  There is a 5% chance on any encounter with colfel that a bed of brown mold will be nearby.)




Flavor text?



> Colfel also have several weaknesses which, like their strengths, are related to their  association with the Negative Material plane. In direct sunlight or its equivalent, they suffer 1 point of damage per round they are exposed. For this reason they venture out of doors only at night, and are always found underground or in the deepest, darkest jungles or forests.




Vulnerability to Sunlight (Ex):  A colfel takes 1 point of damage per round of exposure to natural sunlight.



> They take one and a half times normal damage from all kinds of fire.




That sure sounds like vulnerability to fire, eh?  



> Colfel also suffer damage directly from the following spells: light (3 hit points);  continual light (6 HP); faerie fire (1 HP per level of caster); pyrotechnics, fireworks form (12 HP); dancing lights (1d4 HP); co/or spray (2d8 HP); prismatic spray (4d6HP additional damage); sunburst, as from a wand of illumination (6d6HP); and prismatic sphere (or wall) (1 HP per segment if within 10”). Each spell except the prismatic sphere or prismatic wall is absorbed and negated when a colfel enters its area of effect.




How about simplifying it to 1d6 points of damage per spell level from spells or effects with the light descriptor?   Combine this with vulnerability to sunlight, above?



> Proximity to normal fires is also damaging to these creatures; torches (2 HP each), lanterns (4 HP each), and bonfires (3d4 + 3 HP) are quenched and simultaneously injure a colfel when it approaches within 5 feet of one.




How's this?

Fire Antithesis (Ex?):  If a colfel approaches within 5 feet of a nonmagical flame, the fire is immediately extinguished and the colfel suffers damage based upon the size category of the fire:  Fine (1), Diminutive (1d2), Tiny (1d3), Small (1d4), Medium (1d6), Large (2d6), Huge (3d6), Gargantuan (4d6), Colossal (6d6).


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2008)

Magic Resistance: I could see converting to SR, but I guess a racial bonus on all saving throws is reasonable.  Do you think +2 or +4?

I'm not positive if they should have powerful charge or if that should just be a "tactics" issue.  Let me think about it.

The rest sounds good, though Fire Antithesis should probably be Su, don't you think?


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2008)

Yeah, fire antithesis should probably be Su.

+4 bonus on saves sounds good.

I combined and rewrote the various light vulnerabilities for clarity.  How's it look?

Vulnerability to Light (Ex): A colfel takes 1 point of damage per round of exposure to natural sunlight.  It also takes 1d6 points of damage per spell level from spells or effects with the light descriptor.  It always suffer the greater amount of damage versus light spells that deal greater damage to certain creature types (such as searing light or sunburst).

I think they should also have this ability...

Negative Energy Affinity (Ex): A colfel is affected by cure spells and inflict spells as if it were an undead creature.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

I like that.  3 skills at 10 ranks?  Intimidate, Listen, and Spot?  For feats, maybe Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw), Improved Natural Attack (gore)?  I'm open to suggestions, though.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

I like the feats.  Combining Improved Natural Attack with the powerful charge ability allows the gore attack to deal almost exactly what it was intended to deal.    

Let's work in Tumble, too, since they seem to like to flank based on the original text.

Maybe Intimidate 10, Listen 5, Spot 5, Tumble 10.

We could replace Weapon Focus (claw) with Alertness if you'd like to improve Listen and Spot.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Tumble sounds good.  I'm not so particular about Alertness vs Weapon Focus; I was just trying to think of good melee skills...


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

Let's actually go with Multiattack rather than Weapon Focus (claw), as it is most likely to use its gore attack if it can't make a full attack.

Organization: Solitary, group (3-10) or voidpack (20-50)?

Challenge Rating: 7?  (Energy drain from up to three attacks each round is pretty deadly, plus it has good damage output).

Treasure: Double standard?
Type G:
10-40 1,000s of gold pieces: 50%
1-20 100s of platinum pieces: 50%
5-20 gems: 30%
1-10 jewelry: 25%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 4 plus 1 scroll: 35%

A colfel is about 6 feet long and stands 3 feet tall at the shoulders. It weighs X pounds.

Colfel speak Abyssal and Infernal?  Their own language?

A colfel can be summoned via a summon monster VII spell?  (That's alot of energy drain, despite the low HD).


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Sounds fine to me!  Edit: I don't think they need their own language, but we can give 'em one if you want.  Edit again: They're about as big as worgs, so maybe 300lb?


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

I don't see anything else.  Wow, that was fast!


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I don't see anything else.  Wow, that was fast!




Some of these write themselves.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

Here's an odd one.    

*WIRCHLER*
ORIGIN: Gehenna
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: -6
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 6+6
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Wirching (see below)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: immune to fire  + acid; takes double damage from cold
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low-average
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Evil (neutral tendencies)
SIZE: S
PSIONIC ABILITY: 50
Attack/Defense Modes: B/H, I

The Wirchler originates from the plane of Gehenna, the Valley of Flame. Fire is their natural habitat, much as air is ours.  They are, however, known to leave their dreadful home in groups to search for new prey. At present they pay precious Fire-gems to the Night Hags in Hades in return for Larvae to torture.

The Wirchler thrives on the pain of its victims. After it inflicts its special damage (see below), it sits back and enjoys their dying screams.

A Wirchler appears as a disembodied mouth with two long, scrawny, hairy arms sticking out of where its cheeks ought to be. Since it has almost no density, it barely has to move its arms to flit about. A single Wirchler attacks with its arms and its long, protruding teeth.

When four or more Wirchlers get together, they can and will utilize their special attack. They start rubbing their teeth together, and the sound “wiiiirrrrccchhhhh” results. This noise stimulates pain centers in the nervous system, and if the wirchlers are allowed to continue in this manner for one full round (i.e. no hits are scored on them), all monsters and humans (except those listed below) within a 6” radius will scream and writhe on the ground, unable to attack, defend, or do otherwise. The following effects will also beset the victims: They will lose one hit point for every hour the wirchlers wirch, one point of Intelligence every three hours, one point of Wisdom every four hours, and one point of Charisma every five hours. The ability losses are permanent unless later regained by magical means.

All Wirchlers encountered will wirch for 1-4 hours, and then some will tie the victims up while the others wirch. The victims will be devoured when the wirchlers next feel hungry again, 1-8 hours later. If there are only four wirchlers, they will all wirch until a.) their victims are dead; b.) more wirchlers arrive; or c.) they are stopped by some other creature.

The following creatures and monsters are not affected by wirching: Gods, Demigods, Arch-Devils, Demon Lords and Princes, Greater Devils, Type V and higher Demons, Beholders, Black Puddings, Blink Dogs, Brain Moles, Couatls, Cerebral Parasites, Djinni, Dragons, Dragon Turtles, Ear Seekers, Efreet, Violet Fungi, Gas Spores, Gelatinous Cubes, Ghosts, all Giants except Hill and Stone Giants, Golems, Gray Oozes, Green Slimes, Harpies, Hydrae, Intellect Devourers, Ki-Rin, Lammasi, Liches, Manticores, Mind Flayers, Molds, Ochre Jellies, Purple Worms, Rakshasi, Shambling Mounds, Skeletons, Spectres, Strangle Weeds, Su-Monsters, Thought Eaters, Water Weirds, Wights, Wraiths, Wyverns and Zombies.

If a Wirchler is found in its lair in Gehenna, it may have (30% chance) a Firegem.  Fire-gems, worth 1,000 g.p. each, are made by Wirchlers in underground smithies. The gems have the following powers: Can shoot flames as per the Naming Hands spell a total of 20 times, as a 19th-level Magic-User; can shoot a Fireball (as per a wand) a total of 10 times; can create a Fire Trap (as a 10thlevel M-U) 5 times, and can create an Incendiary Cloud once. The gem will also act as a Gem of seeing as long as any of the above abilities remains functional.  Each ability (except the seeing power) needs a different command word to function.  The wirchler owning a fire-gem will certainly use it against attackers.

There are always 1-4 fire opals (the normal gem) in a Wirchler’s lair.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #47 (1981).


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Very strange indeed.   Do you want to make them outsiders, or should we be more adventurous and go for extraplanar aberrations?


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## Shroomy (Jan 25, 2008)

Extraplanar Aberration with the Fire Sub-Type.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

_Wiiiiiiirrrrrrccccchhhhhhh!_

I think outsider seems the best in this case.

It looks like high Dex, decent Con, Int 5-10, probably average Str, and possibly decent Cha.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Ok, but let's give it the fire subtype.  I'd agree with your stat suggestions.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

We need to determine Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha.

AC converts to 26.  They get a +1 size bonus.  That still leaves 15 points to account for.  They don't strike me as having really high natural armor, so maybe strive for a +7 Dex bonus and +6 natural (like the similarly-sized spinagon)?  That still leaves 2 points shy, but we could always give them a deflection bonus or the Dodge feat to help make up the difference.

Int translates to 5-10.  Go with the middle and 7 or 8?

Wis strikes me as average.   Cha is probably decent, since they use psionics and wirching might be Cha based.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2008)

I agree with putting Dex 24.  Maybe put natural armor at +2-4 and give them deflection based on Cha?  I agree with Wis average.  Cha should maybe be 20-24?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jan 29, 2008)

It sounds like they should have Craft Wondrous Item as one of their feats.  I would also give them Concentration as a skill, since that seems like it would be useful to them.


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

All sounds good.  Updated Homebrews.



> When four or more Wirchlers get together, they can and will utilize their special attack. They start rubbing their teeth together, and the sound “wiiiirrrrccchhhhh” results. This noise stimulates pain centers in the nervous system, and if the wirchlers are allowed to continue in this manner for one full round (i.e. no hits are scored on them), all monsters and humans (except those listed below) within a 6” radius will scream and writhe on the ground, unable to attack, defend, or do otherwise. The following effects will also beset the victims: They will lose one hit point for every hour the wirchlers wirch, one point of Intelligence every three hours, one point of Wisdom every four hours, and one point of Charisma every five hours. The ability losses are permanent unless later regained by magical means.
> 
> All Wirchlers encountered will wirch for 1-4 hours, and then some will tie the victims up while the others wirch. The victims will be devoured when the wirchlers next feel hungry again, 1-8 hours later. If there are only four wirchlers, they will all wirch until a.) their victims are dead; b.) more wirchlers arrive; or c.) they are stopped by some other creature.




How does this look?

Wirching (Su):  To use this ability, four or more wirchlers rub their teeth together, resulting in their namesake sound.  After a full round of wirching, all creatures within 60 feet must succeed on a DC X Will save or fall to the ground screaming and writhing for as long as the wirching continues.  Affected creatures are considered to be helpless(?).  For each hour of continuous exposure to wirching, an affected creature suffers 1 point of damage.  For every three hours of exposure, a victim suffers one point of Intelligence drain.  Every four hours a victim suffers one point of Wisdom drain, and every five hours one point of Charisma drain.

At least four wirchlers will continue to wirch until all victims are dead.  If damaged, a wirchler must succeed on a Concentration check (DC equals damage dealt) to continue wirching.   This is a sonic, mind-affecting ability.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

I like it.  I'd say helpless makes sense.  Do we need to put in something about creatures that enter the wirching radius, or is it just understood that they make their will save after 1 full round?  Also, do we need to put in something about creatures that make their first save -- do they have to save again each round, or just once?


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I like it.  I'd say helpless makes sense.  Do we need to put in something about creatures that enter the wirching radius, or is it just understood that they make their will save after 1 full round?  Also, do we need to put in something about creatures that make their first save -- do they have to save again each round, or just once?




Yeah, that needs to be developed better.  I'd say save each round, and no automatic 24-hour immunity upon a success.  Otherwise, the wirchlers are essentially sitting ducks.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

You're probably right, though saving every round makes them quite nasty.  Maybe make characters save each round but maybe give an additional save every hour to shake off the effect?  Or do you think that a party tough enough to take on 4 of these at once will have someone who can make the save for a few rounds and break their concentration?


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> You're probably right, though saving every round makes them quite nasty.  Maybe make characters save each round but maybe give an additional save every hour to shake off the effect?  Or do you think that a party tough enough to take on 4 of these at once will have someone who can make the save for a few rounds and break their concentration?




Well, they only need one successful save and can probably run out of the 60-foot-radius, eh?

Speaking of that, should the "within 60 feet" be "within 60 feet of any wirchler currently wirching", or should it be centered between them (that's probably overly cumbersome, though)?


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

I'd say within 60 ft of any wircher wirching.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd say within 60 ft of any wircher wirching.




Reading that, I can't help but think of "pipers piping" and a partridge in a pear tree.


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Reading that, I can't help but think of "pipers piping" and a partridge in a pear tree.



 Me, too.   Any more special abilities on these, or should we move on to skills and feats?


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## Shade (Jan 31, 2008)

> The following creatures and monsters are not affected by wirching: Gods, Demigods, Arch-Devils, Demon Lords and Princes, Greater Devils, Type V and higher Demons, Beholders, Black Puddings, Blink Dogs, Brain Moles, Couatls, Cerebral Parasites, Djinni, Dragons, Dragon Turtles, Ear Seekers, Efreet, Violet Fungi, Gas Spores, Gelatinous Cubes, Ghosts, all Giants except Hill and Stone Giants, Golems, Gray Oozes, Green Slimes, Harpies, Hydrae, Intellect Devourers, Ki-Rin, Lammasi, Liches, Manticores, Mind Flayers, Molds, Ochre Jellies, Purple Worms, Rakshasi, Shambling Mounds, Skeletons, Spectres, Strangle Weeds, Su-Monsters, Thought Eaters, Water Weirds, Wights, Wraiths, Wyverns and Zombies.




I'd say we simplify that feat to simply "fiends (evil outsiders)".  Any objections?



> PSIONIC ABILITY: 50
> Attack/Defense Modes: B/H, I




I'll need to revisit 1e psionics, unless someone else has suggestions.


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## freyar (Feb 1, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd say we simplify that feat to simply "fiends (evil outsiders)".  Any objections?



I'd make it evil outsiders and mindless creatures.



> I'll need to revisit 1e psionics, unless someone else has suggestions.



Not something I know anything about!


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## Shade (Feb 1, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd make it evil outsiders and mindless creatures.




"This is a sonic, mind-affecting ability" should take care of the latter.


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## freyar (Feb 1, 2008)

Excellent, I should really read more carefully.


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

I keep forgetting to check my 1e DMG when I'm at home for the psionics.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I keep forgetting to check my 1e DMG when I'm at home for the psionics.




And it wasn't the DMG I needed to check, but the PHB.    

Anyway, it appears that B,H,and I are:

B. Mind Thrust
H. Mental Barrier
I. Intellect Fortress

So I think we can just give them these as psi-like abilities.   Since mental barrier provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC (which can be augmented to gain higher bonus), and we've already given them a +5 deflection bonus to AC, I'd recommend we either drop the permanent bonus or drop the psi-like ability.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2008)

I think the AC is pretty good for something of their likely CR, so maybe we should drop the deflection bonus and give them the psi ability.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

Updated.



> If a Wirchler is found in its lair in Gehenna, it may have (30% chance) a Firegem. Fire-gems, worth 1,000 g.p. each, are made by Wirchlers in underground smithies. The gems have the following powers: Can shoot flames as per the Naming Hands spell a total of 20 times, as a 19th-level Magic-User; can shoot a Fireball (as per a wand) a total of 10 times; can create a Fire Trap (as a 10thlevel M-U) 5 times, and can create an Incendiary Cloud once. The gem will also act as a Gem of seeing as long as any of the above abilities remains functional. Each ability (except the seeing power) needs a different command word to function. The wirchler owning a fire-gem will certainly use it against attackers.




Here's a stab at this:

Firegem: This woundrous item resembles a fire opal. Upon utterance of a command word, the crystal emits one of the following fire effects.

One command word causes the gem to shoot a cone of flames, as the burning hands spell. This use of the gem expends 1 charge. 

Another command word causes the firegem to release a fireball (as the spell). This use of the gem expends 2 charges. 

The third command word wards an item touched with a fire trap (as the spell). This use expends 4 charges.

A final command word uses all remaining charges to create an incendiary cloud that lasts for a number of rounds equal to half the remaining charges.

A newly created firegem has 50 charges.  As long as at least one charge remains, the firegem functions as a gem of seeing.  When all its charges are expended, the gem becomes nonmagical. X evocation; CL 19th; Craft Wondrous Item, burning hands, fireball, fire trap, incendiary cloud, true seeing; Price x gp.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2008)

Looks pretty good, actually.  I'd have to go look at my books go guess a price, though.  What's the X before evocation?

Skills: Concentration, Psicraft? or Spellcraft?, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Autohypnosis?, Tumble?, Spot?


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looks pretty good, actually.  I'd have to go look at my books go guess a price, though.  What's the X before evocation?




Faint/moderate/strong, etc.

Those skills look like good choices.  I'll see if I can assign some ranks.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Faint/moderate/strong, etc.
> 
> Those skills look like good choices.  I'll see if I can assign some ranks.



 I was just going to max out all those skills, choosing either psicraft or spellcraft.

At that CL, shouldn't it probably be strong evocation?


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

Updated.



> If a Wirchler is found in its lair in Gehenna, it may have (30% chance) a Firegem.






> There are always 1-4 fire opals (the normal gem) in a Wirchler’s lair.




Treasure: No coins; standard goods (fire opals only); no items (unless firegem, see below)?

Craft Firegem (Su):  A wirchler can create a firegem as though it had the necessary feats and prerequisite spells or other requirements.

Flight (Ex): A wirchler's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 50 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

Feats:  Ability Focus (wirching), Iron Will, Multiattack?

Organization: Solitary or wirching (2-10)?

Challenge Rating: 4 (6 w/firegem)?

Advancement:  7-18 HD (Small)?

A wirchler is about 4 feet in diameter and weighs 15 pounds.  (It has "almost no density".)


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2008)

That all looks good to me!


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

Summoned via summon monster IV?


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Summoned via summon monster IV?



 Sounds about right.  These are basically done, then, huh?


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

Yep.  We just need a price for firegems, I think.  A gem of seeing is 70,000 gp, and these things have additional powers.  A helm of brilliance is fairly close in power, and costs 125,000 gp.   Maybe 140,000 gp?

Updated

I added some flavor text to limit the use of the powerful firegems.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

On second thought, maybe we should make the firegems lack a cost and only be able to be produced by wirchlers, and add a limiter that they may only be used by evil outsiders?   Otherwise, that's a potentially game-breaking treasure as a result of a random encounter.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

Better yet, maybe we should remove incendiary cloud and true seeing, lower the caster level, and state that greater firegems are rumored to exist, created by only the most powerful wirchlers?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Better yet, maybe we should remove incendiary cloud and true seeing, lower the caster level, and state that greater firegems are rumored to exist, created by only the most powerful wirchlers?




I think this is actually the way to go.  Otherwise, they're going to be game-breaking magic items for such low CR monsters.  Should we list the greater firegems also?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Updated.

I lowered the caster level to 6th and priced it as the gem of brightness.  It's still quite valuable for the wirchler's CR, but if found as part of a group it is more reasonable.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  Are these done?  Wiirch!


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

I believe so.

Wiiiirrrrccchhhhh!


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Let's get this one out of the way while centaurs are still fresh in our mind.

*CENTAUR, SEA*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: //24"
HIT DICE: 5
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 weapon
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 5%
INTELLIGENCE: Average to exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
SIZE: L (12-15' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: V/245 + 5/hp

These aquatic creatures appear to be a cross between a triton and a hippocampus.  They are found in any area where either of the other two creatures might be found.

Sea centaurs usually gather in small, nomadic families, but occasionally may be found amongst a group of tritons. Tritons feel superior to the sea centaurs because of the latter's lesser abilities (e.g., lower magic resistance, lack of psionic ability, etc.); tritons sometimes use sea centaurs as mounts if the latter are agreeable.  

For the most part, sea centaurs have no treasure (except for an occasional piece of jewelry), although 10% of them have acquired tritons' magic conch shells. When used by sea centaurs, these shells summon 2-8 hippocampi; they can also be used to send messages underwater within a halfmile radius.

There is a 10% chance that any sea centaur has the ability to cast spells as a 1st-4th level druid. All sea centaurs speak triton and hippocampus, and 25% of them also speak common. They say little about the deity they worship, but it is assumed to be the same one as worshiped by the tritons (i.e., Triton).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #116 (1986).


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Compare to 2e standard centaur stats...

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate forest 
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivorous 
INTELLIGENCE: Low to average (5-10) 
TREASURE: M, Q (D, I, T) 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral or chaotic good 
NO. APPEARING: 1-8 
ARMOR CLASS: 5 (4) 
MOVEMENT: 18 
HIT DICE: 4 
THAC0: 17 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6 and weapon 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: L(8'-9' tall) 
MORALE: Elite (13-14) 
XP VALUE: 175 
Centaur leader 270 
Centaur priest 420


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Centaur:  Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11, +3 natural
Hippocampus:  Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 8, +3 natural
Triton:  Str 12, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 11, +6 natural

Average to Exceptional translates to Int 8-16.

AC = 15 with no armor suggested.

How about:  Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 11, +4 natural (to go with +2 Dex and -1 size)?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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