# How do you pronunce "grognard"?



## niklinna

*EDIT:* J. Quondam suggested "GRAWN-yard", which I'd lump in with "gruh-NYAR(D)" (option 3). Shame you can't edit poll responses! At least you can change your vote, if you see this after choosing.

I've recently heard a couple folks online pronounce "grognard" as the first poll option. I've always pronounced it as the third poll option, perhaps because I studied French in high school, perhaps because I listened to Edith Piaf a lot (she had a song called Les Grognards, look up the lyrics, it's about the ghosts of Napoleon's army marching eternally in the afterlife), perhaps because I might be considered a grognard!

Grognards was in fact a name specifically for the Old Guard Grenadiers of Napoleon's army. The word means "grumblers", because unlike most soldiers, they were allowed to complain freely—which of course they did.

I am particularly curious whether how you pronounce the word might have anything to do with a) whether you sef-identify as a grognard or not, and b) what generation/era of gamers you come from.


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## J.Quondam

In the context of D&D, I've always pronounced it "GRAWN-yard", sort of an American bastardization of the French pronunciation.


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## John Dallman

I started gaming in 1979 and use the second pronunciation. I don't identify as a grognard, although I can see why people might describe me as such. I have no knowledge of French, and a very poor grasp of English phonetics, due to having learned to read without using them. Although English is my native language, I cannot split words into syllables reliably.


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## payn

L'Option numéro trois


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## Xamnam

I voted for the second, though I wouldn't say I put particular emphasis on the second syllable.


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## niklinna

J.Quondam said:


> In the context of D&D, I've always pronounced it "GRAWN-yard", sort of an American bastardization of the French pronunciation.



If I could edit poll choices, I would add your transcription to option 3!


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## schneeland

I prefer to pronounce it incorrectly as if it were a German word (pronounced roughly like [ɡʁɔknaʁd]).


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## MNblockhead

From the OED:
*Pronunciation:* Brit. Hear pronunciation/ɡrɒnˈjɑː/, Hear pronunciation/ˈɡrɒɡnɑːd/, U.S. Hear pronunciation/ɡroʊnˈjɑr/, Hear pronunciation/ˈɡroʊɡˌnɑrd/, Hear pronunciation/ˈɡrɑɡˌnɑrd/

I've always pronounced it /ˈɡrɑɡˌnɑrd/

Was interested to see the definition of the word in the gaming context only entered the OED in 2019 and is still a draft edition. I also find it interesting that 1980 is the first written example of this usage that they cite.  Can anyone point to examples of this use of the term that predates 1980?  I feel that it should go back to the 1970s.

If we find an example, let's submit it: Submission form | Oxford English Dictionary

Would be cool if this thread led to an update to the OED.

Draft additions June 2019​
  In gaming contexts: an expert or long-standing player, esp. of war-games or role-playing games.Sometimes with negative connotations of being resistant to change.
1980   _Verbatim_ Autumn 10/1   In the wargaming hobby, a grognard is ‘a hard-core gamer, one who purchases a dozen or more games a year’.
1989   _Introd. Games_ in _rec.games.board_ (Usenet newsgroup) 17 Oct.   To all grognards and other board wargamers: Please attempt a similar exercise with your collection, and then scan your social environment for candidates to teach these gems to.
2018   @greg_oose 19 Jan. in _twitter.com_ (O.E.D. Archive)    I should have known you were a D&Der! I'm a bit of a grognard myself. Like to play 1st ed.


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## niklinna

MNblockhead said:


> From the OED:
> *Pronunciation:* Brit. Hear pronunciation/ɡrɒnˈjɑː/, Hear pronunciation/ˈɡrɒɡnɑːd/, U.S. Hear pronunciation/ɡroʊnˈjɑr/, Hear pronunciation/ˈɡroʊɡˌnɑrd/, Hear pronunciation/ˈɡrɑɡˌnɑrd/



Clearly I should have done more research before drafting my poll! That's more variety than I expected.


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## CubicsRube

I speak french so I always saw it as the third option.


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## ThrorII

I've always pronounced it "Grog-nard", but then I also say "Mee-lee" instead of "may-lay", so what do I know....


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## Yora

You pronounce it grognard, because in this context it's an American word and Americans pronounce all foreign words wrong.
(Sorry, but you all know it's true. )


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## damiller

I've always pronounced it (spelling it phonetically mind you) grow-nard(s). Maybe thats why when I say it people wonder what I am trying to say.


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## HaroldTheHobbit

I can't give up pronouncing it as a pirate noun with focus on GROG-naard, as in "fetch the grognard and man the sails, ye bastards!".


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## aco175

ThrorII said:


> I've always pronounced it "Grog-nard", but then I also say "Mee-lee" instead of "may-lay", so what do I know....



What does it say about me who says MAY-lee.


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## ART!

"GROG nard", almost like it's two words, and almost with the same emphasis on both syllables.

It never occurred to me there was any other way to pronounce it.


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## ART!

aco175 said:


> What does it say about me who says MAY-lee.



I've always gone with "meh-LEE", so...?


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## RealAlHazred

"I choose option 5..."
"Three, sir!"
"... Option 3!"

And while we're on the subject of language, it's pronounced "row" to rhyme with "drow", not "row" to rhyme with "drow"! People need to get their language straight!


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## Ulfgeir

For me it is a mix between 1 and 2. Start with the Grog-part from 1, continue with an unstressed version of nard from 2.

And started playing back in 1984, so , kind of a grognard.


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## GuyBoy

When I’m in UK or USA, option two. 
Quand je suis en France, l’option trois.


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## MNblockhead

aco175 said:


> What does it say about me who says MAY-lee.



That your American, according to the dictionaries I've looked at.


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## MNblockhead

ART! said:


> I've always gone with "meh-LEE", so...?



"D&D combats are such slog, I'm so bored with the _meh-_lee."  ;-)


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## Gradine

I've always pronounced it "GROG-hawk"


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## Sir Brennen

-


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## South by Southwest

Someone has to say it:

"Snarf."


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## FitzTheRuke

I still say it should be pronounced "grown nerd" because I think that's funny.


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## Ruin Explorer

If I'm saying the whole word, 3.

If I'm shortening it to "grog", 2.

Re: melee unfortunately my brain is totally stuck on mee-lee (or more specifically m'lee), even though I know perfectly well that maylay is correct.


aco175 said:


> What does it say about me who says MAY-lee.



That feels like a Southern pronunciation, but not like Deep South. More like Kentucky or something maybe. I quite like it. "Gentlemen, you will stand seven paces apart and then engage in a maylee!".


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## aramis erak

J.Quondam said:


> In the context of D&D, I've always pronounced it "GRAWN-yard", sort of an American bastardization of the French pronunciation.



I tend to the groǧ-nard - where the ǧ is a voiced non-plosive sound, rather than the glottally stopped hard g at the front. 
I don't grok IPA well enough to use it.


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## Sir Brennen

Ruin Explorer said:


> That feels like a Southern pronunciation, but not like Deep South. More like Kentucky or something maybe. I quite like it. "Gentlemen, you will stand seven paces apart and then engage in a maylee!".



Deep south would be "... and then engage in maaay-lay"


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## aramis erak

aco175 said:


> What does it say about me who says MAY-lee.



You don't apply the vowel-consonant-vowel rule... and mix classical and modern English vowel pronunciationss in the same word.

My preferred is may-lay (equal stress), or the variant on the French, which is closer to meh-LAY or muh-LAY, at least according to the Qebecois, Cajuns, and Creoles I've known say it. 

Then again, I also usually prefer to see it spelled in English with diacritics, *melée*, witch makes it mee-LEE. (vowel-consonant-vowel rule, double e rule, acute accent denotes stressed syllable when not 1st. The diacritic French being mêlée...

I hate French orthography, but once you learn the "dozen oh's" (o, ou, eau, eaux, etc...), it's mostly consistent.


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## ThrorII

aramis erak said:


> Then again, I also usually prefer to see it spelled in English with diacritics, *melée*, witch makes it mee-LEE. (vowel-consonant-vowel rule, double e rule, acute accent denotes stressed syllable when not 1st.




Crap!?! You mean I actually pronounce it correctly based on English rules?????


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## aramis erak

ThrorII said:


> Crap!?! You mean I actually pronounce it correctly based on English rules?????



Standard American English rules, yes. Most of the US doesn't use them, tho'. And the UK Received Pronunciation English rules are slightly different... but I've only taught US SAE.


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## BigJackBrass

Considering that most people voting think they stress the second syllable it's odd that everyone I've heard (talking about the gamers, not the historical troops) stresses the first, regardless of their nationality.


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## Edgar Ironpelt

ART! said:


> "GROG nard", almost like it's two words, and almost with the same emphasis on both syllables.
> 
> It never occurred to me there was any other way to pronounce it.



Me too.
Piggybacking rather than creating a post to explain my "some other way" choice.


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## delericho

Rhymes with 'drow'.


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## delericho

More seriously, I don't think I've ever actually said 'grognard' - I've only ever used it in written form. It's strange how many words that is true of.

But I daresay Edith Piaf has the pronunciation correct.


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