# Punisher 2



## Barendd Nobeard (Nov 25, 2004)

from http://www.superherohype.com/news.php?id=2246



> "They're really hot on the sequel since the DVD has sold so well," said Jane....




Wow.  The first one looked so bad I haven't even rented it yet.  Heck, I haven't even watched the Dolph Lundgren version someone lent me (on VHS).

Any hopes for P2?


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## Capellan (Nov 25, 2004)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Any hopes for P2?




Given that the Dolphy Lundgren version was IMO actually better than the recent version, my only hope for P2 is that it won't happen


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 25, 2004)

Hmm.  I haven't seen the Tom Jane one but could a sequel be any worse?  I mean, they killed Travolta off, right?  So it's not like he'll be anywhere near this one, which can only mean good things.


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## Acid_crash (Nov 25, 2004)

Despite Travolta's rather weak performance in Punisher (after he did such a great job in both Broken Arrow and Face/Off), I thought Punisher was a pretty cool movie for what it was.  It ended on a good note and I hope that P2 will just continue where the first ended.  

I am glad that they are making a sequel, sometimes they do better (not often) and work from the mistakes of the first one.


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## Klaus (Nov 25, 2004)

I wanted to see this movie (it can't be as bad as some Charles Bronson movies I've seen in my time), but Columbia decided not to release it in theaters here, settling for a direct-to-video approach. How can they decide that after releasing Anaconda 2 in theaters is beyond me, though...


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## Mark Chance (Nov 25, 2004)

Klaus said:
			
		

> I wanted to see this movie (it can't be as bad as some Charles Bronson movies I've seen in my time), but Columbia decided not to release it in theaters here, settling for a direct-to-video approach. How can they decide that after releasing Anaconda 2 in theaters is beyond me, though...




Well, in terms of the my-enjoyment-index, Anacondas ends up ranking higher than Punisher. Frank Castle basically bored me. At least with Anacondas, I had something to laugh at.

IIRC, the latter films box office take in the U.S. was about $33 million. Anacondas pulled in about $31 million. Considering production costs, both haven't made their studios any money worth mentioning.


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## Villano (Nov 25, 2004)

I was hoping that they would make a sequel since I really enjoyed the first one.  It wasn't perfect.  The director tried to mix the old, serious Punisher comics with the new, black comedy ones.  You end up with the feeling like you're watching two movies.

I know that a lot of fans were upset that Castle went through this elaborate plan to take down Saint by making him destroy everyone he loved, but I thought that was the best aspect of the movie.  Sure, the comic Punisher would have just waltzed in and shot everyone, but that doesn't make for a good movie.  Considering how many of his series have been cancelled, it doesn't make for a good comic either, apparently.

Rumor is that the sequel is going to feature Jigsaw as the villain.  I've even heard an actor's name mentioned, but I can't recall who it was.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 25, 2004)

The Thomas Jaine version of the Punisher exceeded my expectations by a substantial margin.  However, I will say that my expectations were very low.  

If it hadn't been cursed with a post-_Get Shorty_ Travolta, it might have been good.  Even as it was, it was better than average.


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## Klaus (Nov 25, 2004)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> Well, in terms of the my-enjoyment-index, Anacondas ends up ranking higher than Punisher. Frank Castle basically bored me. At least with Anacondas, I had something to laugh at.
> 
> IIRC, the latter films box office take in the U.S. was about $33 million. Anacondas pulled in about $31 million. Considering production costs, both haven't made their studios any money worth mentioning.



 The only part of Anaconda 1 (never saw 2, 'cause hey, there aren't any anacondas in Borneo, etc etc) I laughed at was when a character gets eaten in the beginning and he manages to utter a perfect-accent curse in Portuguese! 

Oh, and Eric Stoltz is still laughing because the earned his pay by *sleeping* through the entire movie!


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## Enforcer (Nov 25, 2004)

I liked the recent Punisher film. Granted, it was no X-Men 2 (in my opinion the best comic book movie ever) and I never read the actual Punisher comics, but I liked it. I agree with Villano that the whole 



Spoiler



"Made you kill your best friend, made you kill your wife"


 thing was excellent.

The only thing I would've asked for from Punisher was more developed villains. Who the hell was the honky-tonk assassin? Or the ginormous Russian guy? We didn't even really get a feel for Travolta and family, other than they were rich, evil criminals. In contrast, the first X-Men movie really set up who Magneto was and why he does some of the things he does. Hopefully Punisher 2 will flesh out the villain some more, which should be easier since they don't have to go through the Frank Castle backstory again.


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## Villano (Nov 25, 2004)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> The only thing I would've asked for from Punisher was more developed villains. Who the hell was the honky-tonk assassin? Or the ginormous Russian guy? We didn't even really get a feel for Travolta and family, other than they were rich, evil criminals. In contrast, the first X-Men movie really set up who Magneto was and why he does some of the things he does. Hopefully Punisher 2 will flesh out the villain some more, which should be easier since they don't have to go through the Frank Castle backstory again.




The Russian guy was taken from the recent comics.  He's actually just called The Russian.  Kevin Nash, the wrestler who portrayed him in the film, is actually a lot slimmer than the character.  Since the part didn't involve any actual acting, I think another wrester, Paul Wight, would have been a better choice.  Wight is about 7'2" and weighs over 550 lbs.  Nash looks like a muscular basketball player, whereas Wight is more massive.  

The "honky-tonk" guy was, afaik, created for the film.  That character's name was Henry Heck (I think).  I just refer to him as "Johnny Cash".  Ironically enough, in an interview with the director, he mentions that they actor actually did portray Johnny Cash in a biopic.

Heck was my favorite character in the film.  He had the perfect balance of a comic book villain that could exist in the real world. 

And I honestly didn't think Travolta was bad.  He wife, however, was waayyy too young to be the mother of late twenty-something boys.  Some critic calculated the ages of the actor and determined that she would have had to have been about 12 when she had them.


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## Acid_crash (Nov 26, 2004)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> Well, in terms of the my-enjoyment-index, Anacondas ends up ranking higher than Punisher. Frank Castle basically bored me. At least with Anacondas, I had something to laugh at.
> 
> IIRC, the latter films box office take in the U.S. was about $33 million. Anacondas pulled in about $31 million. Considering production costs, both haven't made their studios any money worth mentioning.




If you watched all the DVD features, they did say the budget for Punisher that they were allowed to film with was 27 million, and they only had like 45 to 50 days to film the movie.  Considering that they weren't green lighted with a large amount of money to begin with, and that they didn't even have a full two months (at least) to use, this movie turned out better than it could have been.

Had they been given 50 million and double the time, I am sure it would have been a lot better.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 26, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Despite Travolta's rather weak performance in Punisher (after he did such a great job in both Broken Arrow and Face/Off)



I passed on this movie, because it looked fairly boring to me.

However, I can't pass on this comment.  Face/Off was an abomination of a movie and should be wiped off the face of the planet.  Though I will say Travolta was better than Cage (who I can't stand).


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## Mark Chance (Nov 26, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Had they been given 50 million and double the time, I am sure it would have been a lot better.




That doesn't necessarily follow. The biggest hurdle The Punisher had and failed to clear was in the script/storyline department. The whole shebang was one seen-that-before after another.

As a clear example that more money/time doesn't make a better film, compare the generally good Pitch Black to the big-budget drek that is Chronicles of Riddick.


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## hero4hire (Nov 26, 2004)

A "kinder, gentler" Punisher...Complete with quirky comic relief neighbors. *ugh!*

Oh and the revamp of his origin...Yes they killed his family but his WHOLE family...His second cousins, his uncle Fred...etc... _Blech!!_


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## JoeGKushner (Nov 26, 2004)

If it hadn't been called the Punisher, it might've been a good movie. Anyone whose read almost any issues of the comic probably wouldn't like it. OUt of the five of us who saw it, one dude said he was "Entertained" and the rest of us just shook our heads.

Heck, way before the current black comedy stylings of the Punisher, when he was in black and white magazines, he was still a bad man. Even if he didn't get up right next to you, he was a hell of a sniper as well as a hell of a fighter. This movie really didn't bring anything to that style character.


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## Klaus (Nov 26, 2004)

Best Punisher story: JLA vs. Avengers #1, Batman's reaction to Frank, and Plastic Man's reaction to THAT.


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## Dagger75 (Nov 26, 2004)

I liked The Punisher.  I was entertained.  I never really read all that many comics so the rewritting of the histories doesn't really bug me.  

Also it was filmed 3 blocks from my house in Tampa so I am a little biased.


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## Acid_crash (Nov 27, 2004)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> That doesn't necessarily follow. The biggest hurdle The Punisher had and failed to clear was in the script/storyline department. The whole shebang was one seen-that-before after another.
> 
> As a clear example that more money/time doesn't make a better film, compare the generally good Pitch Black to the big-budget drek that is Chronicles of Riddick.




lol, I guess this is a matter of difference.  I really liked Pitch Black and I did like CoR, especially the directors cut, which did make a little bit more sense.  

I guess this is also a matter of having certain expectations before a movie comes out and I know that it sucks to have high expectations for a movie and then have them to fall flat, but all three of these movies I really did like.  

Maybe it's about seeing beyond the movie and treating the movie as a seperate entity from the comic book.  Nobody is giving Blade this kind of ridicule from the comic version, so why Punisher?


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## Acid_crash (Nov 27, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I passed on this movie, because it looked fairly boring to me.
> 
> However, I can't pass on this comment.  Face/Off was an abomination of a movie and should be wiped off the face of the planet.  Though I will say Travolta was better than Cage (who I can't stand).




Ya must be joking.  Face/Off was a great movie.  Travolta did do better than Cage in that movie, but Cage did okay, especially at the beginning.  

You must not be too excited for Ghost Rider coming out next year, then?


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## Mark Chance (Nov 27, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Maybe it's about seeing beyond the movie and treating the movie as a seperate entity from the comic book.  Nobody is giving Blade this kind of ridicule from the comic version, so why Punisher?




My gripes with The Punisher have nothing to do with the comic book and the differences between it and the movie. I think The Punisher was, at best, a barely average movie. Since the comic books are also barely average, deviating from them is a step in the right direction, assuming the writers know what they're doing, which they didn't.

As for Blade, I found the first entertaining, but was largely underwhelmed by the sequel. I have low expectations for the third.


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## Dark Jezter (Mar 21, 2005)

A little late, but oh well...

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/news/articles/1695.asp
and
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/news/articles/1755.asp

So it looks like the Punisher 2 is on the way for 2006.  Another recent report I read about Punisher 2 from AICN stated that Jigsaw would be the villain.

I'm pleased with the announcement.  I thought that the Punisher was a good action flick.  It wasn't a classic, but it was definately enjoyable (and considering that the studio executives only gave the director a small amount of time and money with which to make the movie, it's amazing that it didn't suck).


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## Crothian (Mar 21, 2005)

The first movie was dare I say...good!!  I liked they killed the whole extended family, it gave great reason for him to do what he did.  The build up in the movie was great, as I was expecting very little establishment of character.  THe assassins they brought in were a bit silly and from the comic, but I still liked the movie.  And I really was not expecting to like it at all.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Mar 21, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Best Punisher story: JLA vs. Avengers #1, Batman's reaction to Frank, and Plastic Man's reaction to THAT.




So what was Batman's reaction and what then was Plas' reaction? And what then was Frank's reaction Batman's reaction? And what then was Batman's reaction to Frank's reaction of  Plas' reaction of Batman's reaction?


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## Dark Jezter (Mar 25, 2005)

Another update.

According to Tom Jane, the Punisher 2 is going to begin production in two months, and the location will be changing from Tampa to New York.

My feelings on this are fairly neutral.  On one hand, setting the movie in New York City will make it more true to the comics.  On the other hand, I feel that NYC is overused as a setting for action movies/crime dramas; Tampa was a nice change of scenery.


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## Klaus (Mar 25, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> So what was Batman's reaction and what then was Plas' reaction? And what then was Frank's reaction Batman's reaction? And what then was Batman's reaction to Frank's reaction of  Plas' reaction of Batman's reaction?



 I think yer yankin' my chain, but hey, I'm gullible! 

The JLA is sent to an alternate Earth (the Marvel Earth) to recover some mystical artifacts at the behest of a Marvel cosmic being, to save the universe. Since there's no Speed Force is Earth-M, the Flash must stay behind, but he activates the Cosmic Treadmill to send the team (Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Aquaman, Jonn Jonnz, Green Lantern [Kyle], Plastic Man and the Atom) to Earth-M.

When they get there, Batman has the team split up into pairs and do reconnaissance before regrouping to locate the artifact. Batman tells them NOT to engage the locals.

When Aquaman is p***ed off at the way Dr. Doom treats his subjects ("This is no way for a monarch to behave"), Batman stresses that they shall NOT engage combat.

When Superman is dismayed at the path of destruction surrounding the Hulk, Batman orders him NOT to engage combat.

So Batman and Plas are taking a peek at New York City, and they witness the Punisher gunning down several drug dealers. Plastic Man heads to the GL-created Batplane saying "Well, let's me the others, Batman... Batman?... (turns around and sees a broken skylight where Batman was watching) BATMAN!?!"

Cut to the rendevouz point, where the JLA is assembled.

Plastic Man (yelling): "He tells us to stay hidden! He orders us to stay hidden! He COMMANDS us to stay hidden!!! And what does HE do? Does he STAY hidden or does he spend FIFTEEN MINUTES beating up a psycho is black leather?!?!?!"

Batman: "..."


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## Rel (Mar 25, 2005)

I REALLY did not like the recent Punisher movie and it isn't because I didn't want to.

It felt to me like they just could not pick a mood for this thing and stick with it.  It started with the gruesome and dark murder of his whole extended family (though some of the action was a bit campy) but they interject some rather lame comic relief with the neighbors.  Then the fight with The Russian was just plain goofy and cartoonish, like something from Popeye.  If that dude had had a gun then the fight would logically have been over in seconds but instead it was "I'll throw him through another wall."  Silly. That was IMMEDIATELY followed by the incredibly gruesome torture scene with them ripping out the dude's piercings with pliers.  The ending was ok but I hated the skull pattern of the fire (though if the rest of the movie had been better this certainly would not have ruined it for me).

If the theme had been just "Dark, Gritty, Ruthless Revenge" then I'd have been fine with that.  If it had been "Over The Top Action With Moments of Levity" that would have been ok too though perhaps not really in keeping with the Punisher theme.  As it was I just couldn't settle in and enjoy the movie beacuse it kept shifting gears on me.

Hopefully the next one will be better but don't count on me being in line outside the theatre.


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## Klaus (Mar 25, 2005)

Skull pattern on fire?

It was cool in the first Crow.

It was a bit ridiculous in Daredevil (why leave a double D on gas and not light it up? And how could a blind guy make those?).

But including it on Punisher is just lame!


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## Dark Jezter (Mar 26, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> It felt to me like they just could not pick a mood for this thing and stick with it.  It started with the gruesome and dark murder of his whole extended family (though some of the action was a bit campy) but they interject some rather lame comic relief with the neighbors.  Then the fight with The Russian was just plain goofy and cartoonish, like something from Popeye.  If that dude had had a gun then the fight would logically have been over in seconds but instead it was "I'll throw him through another wall."  Silly. That was IMMEDIATELY followed by the incredibly gruesome torture scene with them ripping out the dude's piercings with pliers.  The ending was ok but I hated the skull pattern of the fire (though if the rest of the movie had been better this certainly would not have ruined it for me).




The "comic relief" neighbors and the brawl with the Russian were straight out of the comics.  Specifically, the *Welcome Back, Frank* series by Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon.

Personally, I _loved_ the fight scene with the Russian.  It's my favorite close-quarters fistfight I've seen in a movie since the fight on the train between Sean Connery and Robert Shaw in *From Russia With Love.*


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## nakia (Mar 28, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> It felt to me like they just could not pick a mood for this thing and stick with it.  It started with the gruesome and dark murder of his whole extended family (though some of the action was a bit campy) but they interject some rather lame comic relief with the neighbors.  Then the fight with The Russian was just plain goofy and cartoonish, like something from Popeye.  If that dude had had a gun then the fight would logically have been over in seconds but instead it was "I'll throw him through another wall."  Silly. That was IMMEDIATELY followed by the incredibly gruesome torture scene with them ripping out the dude's piercings with pliers.  The ending was ok but I hated the skull pattern of the fire (though if the rest of the movie had been better this certainly would not have ruined it for me).




I just watched The Punisher this weekend and have to agree with Rel.  I thought Jane made a good Frank Castle and thought the movie was okay, but the juxtaposition of radically different moods made the whole thing flow like tar.  I enjoyed the Garth Ennis Punisher a lot -- the character is a bit absurd to begin with, so to have over the top gore and black, comedic violence makes some sense.  I enjoyed the fight with The Russian.  I wonder what the film would have been like if it had followed that tone all the way through.  Ennis certainly didn't take the Punisher all that seriously and balanced the beam well between action and (very dark) comedy.

I'll check out the sequel on DVD.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 28, 2005)

For a movie about the Punisher there was suprisingly little punishment dealt out IMO.  The whole plot with the two losers and the superhot chick was very lame and totally ruined a lot of the movie.  I honestly preferred the Dolph L. version, as bad as it was.  

The only punishment was to the viewer in the second version.


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## Mystery Man (Mar 29, 2005)

The Punisher, good flick.


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## Wolv0rine (Mar 31, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Plastic Man (yelling): "He tells us to stay hidden! He orders us to stay hidden! He COMMANDS us to stay hidden!!! And what does HE do? Does he STAY hidden or does he spend FIFTEEN MINUTES beating up a psycho is black leather?!?!?!"
> 
> Batman: "..."




Oh man, I am so sorry I missed that.   But I have to wonder, did Batman actually spend 15 minutes beating the h3ll out of the Punisher...  or did it TAKE him 15 minutes to beat the h3ll out of the Punisher?  

(I prefer the first version, myself)


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## Klaus (Mar 31, 2005)

Since Batman is shown without as much as a scratch on him, we are led to believe that he treats Frank to an unhealthy dosage of b33tch-sl4ppin'...

And hey, the man has to deal with Deathstroke and Deadshot, so the Punisher doesn't really rank that high on the threat-o-meter, right?

Another great part is Quicksilver, visiting DC-Earth, flippin' out because the local speedster has a frickin' MUSEUM!


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## mac1504 (Apr 1, 2005)

I'd like to see Tom Jaine kick Ben Affleck's butt in a Punisher vs. Daredevil movie.


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## The_Universe (Apr 1, 2005)

I thought Tom Jane was excellent in the film - but Travolta really brought the movie down.  I wish it had been a different villain.  I'd watch another movie with the same main character, as long as there was NO CHANCE it would deal with the previous films' villains.


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## TracerBullet42 (Apr 4, 2005)

My only hope for the sequel would be that Amy Lee and Seether hook up for another sweet song like "Broken" for the movie...

That song is friggin' great!


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## Dark Jezter (Apr 5, 2005)

mac1504 said:
			
		

> I'd like to see Tom Jaine kick Ben Affleck's butt in a Punisher vs. Daredevil movie.




There was actually a scene in the "Welcome Back, Frank" comic series where Punisher and Daredevil fought it out. Daredevil was trying to stop Punisher from killing a mafia scumbag named Dino Gnucci (whom happened to be a client of Daredevil's lawyer alter-ego) with a sniper rifle.  After unsuccessfully trying to talk Punisher out of the assassination, Daredevil unleashed his martial arts moves on Punisher.  Punisher takes the beating for a little while (knowing that he has no chance of beating Daredevil in hand-to-hand combat) before triggering an ultrasonic sound device that unleashes hell on Daredevil's enhanced senses.  While Daredevil is still reeling from the sonic attack, Punisher knocks him out cold with a left hook.

Daredevil wakes up shortly thereafter to find himself chained to a pillar with a revolver in his hand and the Punisher nearby getting ready to snipe the mafia scumbag.  And the following exchange takes place...

*Daredevil:*  "What is this?"
*Punisher:* "One bullet. One Shot.  One chance to stop me from killing Dino Gnucci.  It's time for that choice you were telling me about.  
"You can't break loose in time.  You haven't the space to throw the gun, maybe knock me off my aim.  
"I've got my back to you.  I'm wearing kevlar.  It's got to be a headshot."
*Daredevil:* "Now wait a minute --"
*Punisher:* "If you don't shoot you've got a death on your conscience.  A death you could have prevented.
"If you do shoot, you're a killer."
*Daredevil:* "What kind of choice is _that_?"
*Punisher:*  "The one I make every time I pull the trigger.  The one I'm making right now."

Daredevil then tried again to talk Punisher out of killing Dino Gnucci, but Punisher refused to listen.  So Daredevil reluctantly points the revolver at Punisher's head and pulls the trigger, only to discover that the firing pin had been removed.  Punisher picks off Dino Gnucci with the sniper rifle.  Tells Daredevil "You can leave the killing to me" and then knocks him out again and unties him.

It was an awesome scene.


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## megamania (Apr 5, 2005)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> I liked the recent Punisher film. Granted, it was no X-Men 2 (in my opinion the best comic book movie ever) and I never read the actual Punisher comics, but I liked it. I agree with Villano that the whole
> 
> 
> 
> ...




But the X-men let Magneto live...


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## megamania (Apr 5, 2005)

Tom Jane's Punisher was more believeable and likable.  He wasn't as cold as the first movie.  I liked the second one much more than the first.  As for the sequal, I have heard it will be done and have heard rumors of Jigsaw being the villian but it is just that- rumors.


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## megamania (Apr 5, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Daredevil wakes up shortly thereafter to find himself chained to a pillar with a revolver in his hand and the Punisher nearby getting ready to snipe the mafia scumbag.  And the following exchange takes place...
> 
> *Daredevil:*  "What is this?"
> *Punisher:* "One bullet. One Shot.  One chance to stop me from killing Dino Gnucci.  It's time for that choice you were telling me about.
> ...




Frank Miller is an AWESOME writer.  I wish he would stay in comics vs the hollywood scene which he "says" he hates but with the Robocops and Sin Citys under his belt I don't see him leaving.


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## Klaus (Apr 5, 2005)

This wasn;t Frank Miller, this was Garth Ennis, IIRC.

And Daredevil could've tried to shoot Frank on the back of the knee, effectivelly blowing off his leg and ending the Punisher's career. Even if Daredevil shot Frank straight on the back, Frank would've moved with the shot's impact, throwing him off-balance and ruining his aim. Or Daredevil could've tried to fire up, alerting the target's security (surely he had some, for Frank to snipe him from a building) and taking away Frank's window of opportunity.


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## Felon (Apr 5, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> This wasn;t Frank Miller, this was Garth Ennis, IIRC. And Daredevil could've tried to shoot Frank on the back of the knee, effectivelly blowing off his leg and ending the Punisher's career. Even if Daredevil shot Frank straight on the back, Frank would've moved with the shot's impact, throwing him off-balance and ruining his aim. Or Daredevil could've tried to fire up, alerting the target's security (surely he had some, for Frank to snipe him from a building) and taking away Frank's window of opportunity.




Yep, there were a dozen different ways for Daredevil to foil Castle, and DD certainly would have figured one of them out had Ennis given the character the amount of brains he actually possesses. All in all, it is a pretty lame scene IMO. I enjoyed Ennis' run on _Punisher_, along with _Preacher_ and _Hellraiser_, but if you read enough of his stuff and you start to realize that his writing style makes the main character look cool by providing him with conveniently stupid straw-man opponents. 

That's particularly true in his Punisher run, where he portrays guys like Spider-Man, Daredevil, and Wolverine as inept clowns that Castle just toys with. OK, granted Spidey's not a real hard-boiled character and he's often portrayed as a goofball, but Wolverine has been a soldier and assassin a lot longer than Castle, and Daredevil has been through hell and back enough times that characterizing him as some sappy pollyanna whose personal beiliefs are just shallow rhetoric is selling him very short. I think Frank Miller would be among the first to agree with that.


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## Dark Jezter (Apr 6, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> And Daredevil could've tried to shoot Frank on the back of the knee, effectivelly blowing off his leg and ending the Punisher's career.




Except Punisher was crouching, and the back of his knee wasn't visible to Daredevil, not to mention that aiming a pistol one-handed at an awkward angle, hitting a head is going to be difficult, and a knee is an even smaller target.



> Even if Daredevil shot Frank straight on the back, Frank would've moved with the shot's impact, throwing him off-balance and ruining his aim.




That option is dependant on Daredevil knowing right when Punisher is about to take the shot.  It wasn't like Punisher was narrating... "Okay, he's getting out of his car right now, I'll be taking the shot in 3... 2... 1..."



> Or Daredevil could've tried to fire up, alerting the target's security (surely he had some, for Frank to snipe him from a building) and taking away Frank's window of opportunity.




At a range of six hundred meters, combined with the sound of a rainstorm and regular NYC background noise, the report of the revolver going off is going to be pretty difficult to hear.  Even if it's a hand cannon, like Dirty Harry's .44 magnum (which is probably doubtful, because kevlar isn't going to stop a .44 magnum round at a range that close).

Punisher did have a suppressor on his rifle, which he explains was to conceal his own position so he could be long gone before the people looking for the sniper find the origin of the shot, but he probably could have gotten away with it anyway.


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## Felon (Apr 6, 2005)

And doesn't the gun turn out to be empty? DD would've at the very least been able to tell through at least one of his senses--touch, hearing, radar, take your pick--as he cocked the gun that the cylinder wasn't loaded. 

Bottom line, the scene would have played out very differently had Ennis been writing that scene for a Daredevil comic book instead. He would've been the cool guy and Castle would have been the straw man chump.


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## Rel (Apr 6, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> And doesn't the gun turn out to be empty? DD would've at the very least been able to tell through at least one of his senses--touch, hearing, radar, take your pick--that the cylinder he was chambering wasn't loaded.
> 
> Bottom line, the scene would have played out very differently had Ennis been writing that scene for a Daredevil comic book instead. He would've been the cool guy and Castle would have been the straw man chump.




The explanation offered by Dark Jezter was that the firing pin had been removed.  DD better have hella good sonar to pick up on that.


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## Felon (Apr 6, 2005)

Well, he does indeed have "hella" good senses, though that is probably beyond him. But again, debating the details of every possible tactic that DD could've used to stop Castle would get pretty exhaustive. Having Castle manufacture a scenario where he is totally in control and forces Daredevil to either kill him or allow him to kill doesn't give Matt Murdock much credit. He's the Man Without Fear, but Ennis would have him be the Man Without Brains...or Balls. 

Like I said, I enjoy his books a lot, but a writer is kind of like a magician. No matter how much you like the magic act, if you keep seeing the same ol' tricks, you're going to start to see through the illusion. That's kind of where I got towards the end of his Punisher run.


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## Felon (Apr 6, 2005)

Villano said:
			
		

> The "honky-tonk" guy was, afaik, created for the film.  That character's name was Henry Heck (I think).  I just refer to him as "Johnny Cash".  Ironically enough, in an interview with the director, he mentions that they actor actually did portray Johnny Cash in a biopic.
> 
> Heck was my favorite character in the film.  He had the perfect balance of a comic book villain that could exist in the real world.




Harry Heck was his name, and he was a minor character from the "Welcome Back, Frank" series. I believe it was the first issue. A trio of elite assassins are hired to deal with Castle. They decide to meet and discuss the job in the middle of a pub, where Castle sits with his back to them at a table about a meter or so away and eavesdrops on the conversation. Over the course of three pages or so, he trails them individually and kills them each off in a succession of fairly unceremonious ambushes. In Heck's case, Castle drives up next to him and empties an uzi into him. Needless to say, the movie actually did a better job by deviating from the comic.

The adaptation is really screwy in a lot of places. I suspect a lot of folks who didn't read the comic were a little confused. They may have trouble buying that the character Joan is a supermodel working a minimum-wage job, and probably a few folks wondered why the mobsters show up and torture Dave, then leave him and Bumpo alive while a single killer is left standing around in the hall to deal with Castle. Then there's the whole tortureless interrogation scene with the popsicle that kinda fell flat (it was effective in the comic because the reader couldn't tell it was a popsicle instead of a red-hot poker).


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## Villano (Apr 6, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> That's particularly true in his Punisher run, where he portrays guys like Spider-Man, Daredevil, and Wolverine as inept clowns that Castle just toys with. OK, granted Spidey's not a real hard-boiled character and he's often portrayed as a goofball, but Wolverine has been a soldier and assassin a lot longer than Castle, and Daredevil has been through and hell and back enough times that characterizing him as some sappy pollyanna whose personal beiliefs are just shallow rhetoric is selling him very short. I think Frank Miller would be among the first to agree with that.




I completely agree.  It kind of reminds me of Grant Morrison explaining how Batman could beat every single one of the JLA.  It seems like an overcompensation to make the human character cool.  You can make a character cool without resorting to "he can beat up cool characters, so that makes him cooler" or "see, these cool characters look like dorks next to him because he's sooo much cooler". 

I like the Punisher, but I prefer the old school version (80s - early 90s).


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 6, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Any hopes for P2?




All kinds but I really liked the movie minus one small part.  

I'm not sure why everyone was so dispointed in the first...  It was closer to Frank Castle in the book than Dolp version.


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## Felon (Apr 6, 2005)

Just move Frank to New York and I'll be happy. Tampa, Florida? Gimme a break.



			
				Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Had they been given 50 million and double the time, I am sure it would have been a lot better.




I'll agree about the time factor, but do you really think having "only" 27 million prevents a director from making a top-notch movie? Another 23 mil would make the movie better?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 6, 2005)

Villano said:
			
		

> I completely agree.  It kind of reminds me of Grant Morrison explaining how Batman could beat every single one of the JLA.




Well a noted Non-Batman fan, Mark Waid, wrote probably the definitive Batman story in regard to him being able to take down the JLA. (Tower of Bable: JLA 43-46)


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## Felon (Apr 6, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well a noted Non-Batman fan, Mark Waid, wrote probably the definitive Batman story in regard to him being able to take down the JLA. (Tower of Bable: JLA 43-46)




And as comments on the letters page a few months later would show, a lot of folks really hated that story.  Of course if you had a bunch of nanotechnology weapons that can penetrate everyone's defenses and do anything ranging from immolating the Martian Manhunter to inducing mental illusions in Wonder Woman's brain you could beat the JLA. Oddly, in his own comic Batman doesn't seem to make much use of these nanites while fighting the likes of the Joker and Penguin.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 6, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> And as comments on the letters page a few months later would show, a lot of folks really hated that story.




Most people only write to complain... 

Oh for the record: 
Issue 48:  3 Positives and 1 middle of the road.  (though it seems to be positive to me)
Issue 49: 1 positive, one middle of the road, 1 negative. (and the middle of the road letter and the negative one where based upon: [



Spoiler



batman "pending" removal from the team


])
Issue 50: all positive (3 for the record)
Issue 51: 2 positives, 1 middle of the road.  (He was worried about [



Spoiler



Batman's removal of the team and how it would be come "Superman in his amazing friends."


])

and issue 52 has the letters from the first part of "Queen of Fable."

So that would be: 9 positive votes, 3 Middle of the road votes, and lastly 1 negative vote that in retrospect is probably not so bad.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Most people only write to complain...




I guess I’m wrong…  People who wrote loved the story. 



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> Oddly, in his own comic Batman doesn't seem to make much use of these nanites while fighting the likes of the Joker and Penguin.




I would imagine that's cause he doesn't need them.


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## Felon (Apr 6, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Most people only write to complain...



True.

Oh for the record: [/quote]
Good lord, this is the scariest thing I've read all week. Tell me the comics were just laying around, right? You were just re-reading them, right? Lie if you have to.  

Tell you what, when I get the free time I'll get my issues and we can nitpick over what qualifies as negative or positive.   



> I would imagine that's cause he doesn't need them.




Are you kidding? He could've rebuilt Gotham after the quake in a week with access to that kind of super-technology. Directing hordes of nanites, he could repel invasions of armies of martians and assault Apokalips, all without ever leaving the comfort of the batcave.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 6, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> Good lord, this is the scariest thing I've read all week. Tell me the comics were just laying around, right? You were just re-reading them, right? Lie if you have to.




Wish I could...  I'm a comic book collector first and foremost...  So 8 feet from me over my right shoulder, bottom row of small boxes, secound box in on the left...  43 issues in.   



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> Tell you what, when I get the free time I'll get my issues and we can nitpick over what qualifies as negative or positive.




Sounds fair enough. 



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> Are you kidding? He could've rebuilt Gotham after the quake in a week with access to that kind of super-technology. Directing hordes of nanites, he could repel invasions of armies of martians and assault Apokalips, all without ever leaving the comfort of the batcave.




First and formost I think you hit upon a major issue of his...  He likes to leave the Batcave.   

As for rebuilding Gotham so quickly, it was a declared a No Man’s Land, and the federal government wasn’t allowing anyone in or out, he probably could have but it would have lead to question he didn’t want to answer or even seen asked.

I do agree though...  It was a pure Plot Device...  How long would it have taken the normal members of the JLA to rebuild Gotham?  Week or two tops?


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## Klaus (Apr 6, 2005)

IIRC, there was an issue dealing with why the JLA didn;t do precisely that, but I didn't read it. Anyone care to pull up the comic?

Anyone? Anyone?

Ferris?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 6, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> IIRC, there was an issue dealing with why the JLA didn;t do precisely that, but I didn't read it. Anyone care to pull up the comic?




Do precisely what?


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## Dragonblade (Apr 6, 2005)

I like the Punisher but I don't think a lot of people get the character as he started out in the 80's. He has been changed so many times since that he has a lost of the edge he once had.

My vision of the Punisher has always been of a ruthless and unstoppable vigilante.

He hunts down and kills criminals. He doesn't announce his presence, or try to instill fear in the mooks ala Batman. He just kills them in the most efficient and covert way as possible so as to not attract attention himself. He then moves on the next group of thugs, and then the next. He doesn't care about glory, or press, or making a statement. He is more like a force of nature than a man. Part of what made the Punisher an interesting character for me was his inhumanity. His cold brutality and ruthless sense of justice.

Both the original Punisher and the new Punisher films both missed the mark. They fell into the cliched action movie formula. Man on Fire's Denzel Washington or the main character in Tom Clancy's Without Remorse were much closer to who the Punisher really is my mind. The Punisher doesn't live in an apartment complex and make friends with the locals. He doesn't stick Daredevil in a moral dilemma.

He doesn't care about Daredevil, or what he thinks. Daredevil is not a criminal so he does not deserve death in the Punisher's worldview, so the Punisher would not kill him. Merely knock him out to get him out of the way, then go snipe his target and then leave.

He wouldn't waste his time trying to frame Howard Saint's family or ruin his life. The real Punisher doesn't care about such things. Saint is a dangerous crime lord. Therefore, he dies and so does anything or anyone that gets in Castle's way. Brutally and efficiently. That's all there is to it.

He would never harm an innocent but nor does he go out of his way to help them. He helps people if the opportunity presents itself, and it won't take him from his path. But otherwise he is not about saving people. He is more focused on destroying evil than in supporting good. He is the ultimate anti-hero.

If they made a real movie about the real Punisher it would be great film. A gritty psychological drama about how a loving family man who loses his family to criminals also loses his humanity in the process. About how his zeal and desire to receive a justice denied him by an inefficient and ineffective legal system turns him into an unstoppable inhuman killer bent on punishing the guilty for their crimes.


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## Felon (Apr 7, 2005)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> I like the Punisher but I don't think a lot of people get the character as he started out in the 80's. He has been changed so many times since that he has a lost of the edge he once had.




Well, as he _started out_, he was a member of Spider-Man's rogue gallery--a nutjob menace  that thought all criminals deserved death, including jaywalkers and shoplifters. Then he got a major facelift via a convenient explanation involving a brainwashing while in prison.

To be honest, I don't think the Frank Castle of the 80's series is very accessable to moviegoers. It's tough to get audiences caring about a joyless character with no personality and no associates to act as foils or exposition devices. And Castle's no-frills ultra-efficient methods of killing criminals would constantly leave folks wondering why he doesn't just do all of his killing with a sniper rifle or remotely-detonated bombs, which would make for a dull, tensionless movie.

I really wonder how the sequel's going to pan out. When Hollywood creative teams (producers, writers, and directors) sit around trying to agree on a script, they really have a tough time getting away from the idea that the do-gooder in question--be it a cop, superhero, or vigilante--has to have something personal at stake. This is why Joker winds up being the guy who killed Batman's parents, and why the Kingpin is the guy who killed Daredevil's father, and so forth. They really have trouble with the notion of someone pursuing a criminal as just part of a broad commitment to stopping wrongdoers, so they feel obliged to introduce some kind of intimate connection to the bad guy. So, what are they going to do in P2 to get Castle pissed off again? Have Bumpo appear just long enough to get bumped off? Give Frank a dog and then blow it up?


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## Klaus (Apr 7, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Do precisely what?



 Why the JLA didn't rebuild Gotham in a week at the beginning of No Man's Land. I don't know if it was in a Batman comic of a JLA comic.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 7, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Why the JLA didn't rebuild Gotham in a week at the beginning of No Man's Land. I don't know if it was in a Batman comic of a JLA comic.




To be honest I probably have the comics, and the answer, somewhere but I'm not sure where to begin searching for the answer…   :\ 

Maybe someone else will.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 7, 2005)

On the Subject of Ennis.  He's a one trick pony and a pretty poor writer.  He got this cult around him based off Preacher, which by about issue 20 had pretty much ran into the ground, and I don't think had enough ideas to support more than a 12 issue series.  He's like a kid who just learned to curse, so in most of his comics I've read, every other word is f**k, and he keeps trying to be as shocking as possible.  "Oh look at this tired cliche bash on the church!  Isn't Ennis so edgy!"  He had Nick Fury disembowel someone then strangle them with their intestines.  Give me a break, that is beyond stupid.  Anyway, I think basing any character off the way Ennis wrote them is a bad idea.


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## Felon (Apr 7, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> He's like a kid who just learned to curse, so in most of his comics I've read, every other word is f**k, and he keeps trying to be as shocking as possible.  "Oh look at this tired cliche bash on the church!  Isn't Ennis so edgy!"




I'll see your Ennis's F-bombs and church-bashing, and raise you Warren Elllis inseerting "WANKER" every other line and his non-stop United-States-bashing.


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## Dark Jezter (Apr 8, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> On the Subject of Ennis.  He's a one trick pony and a pretty poor writer.  He got this cult around him based off Preacher, which by about issue 20 had pretty much ran into the ground, and I don't think had enough ideas to support more than a 12 issue series.  He's like a kid who just learned to curse, so in most of his comics I've read, every other word is f**k, and he keeps trying to be as shocking as possible.  "Oh look at this tired cliche bash on the church!  Isn't Ennis so edgy!"  He had Nick Fury disembowel someone then strangle them with their intestines.  Give me a break, that is beyond stupid.  Anyway, I think basing any character off the way Ennis wrote them is a bad idea.



 Really?  I've enjoyed the heck out of the Ennis Punisher comics.  The Ennis version of the Punisher was inspired by the heroes (or antiheroes, rather) from movies like _Dirty Harry_ and _Death Wish_, which incidentilly happen to be a couple of my favorite movies from the 1970s.  Ennis also took away the sidekicks and high-tech gadgets that had been part of the Punisher for years prior and returned him to his roots: a one-man army with an endless supply of weapons and a single-minded obsession with killing every piece of criminal trash he could find. 

The Ennis version of the Punisher also has the good sense not to take itself too seriously, and included some really funny moments that actually made me laugh out loud, something I don't do often with comic books.


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## Felon (Apr 9, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Ennis also took away the sidekicks and high-tech gadgets that had been part of the Punisher for years prior and returned him to his roots: a one-man army with an endless supply of weapons and a single-minded obsession with killing every piece of criminal trash he could find.




Yeah, it was a very back-to-the-basics approach. My biggest complaint there is that he portrays Frank as sort of a second-rate hand-to-hand combatant. The Punisher of yesteryear was extremely deadly in a close fight, easily in Daredevil or Elektra's league. 



> The Ennis version of the Punisher also has the good sense not to take itself too seriously, and included some really funny moments that actually made me laugh out loud, something I don't do often with comic books.




Yes, Ennis has a grand flair for dark humor. Using the animals in the Bronx zoo as weapons was perfect. I don't want to keep buying a book that's mood never changes from being dark and morose. Who does?


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## Dark Jezter (Apr 10, 2005)

Oh, here's a bit of new Punisher-related info that was at AICN a while back concerning a Punisher Director's Cut DVD...



			
				Ain't It Cool News said:
			
		

> I also got a chance to talk to Tim Bradstreet (the punisher cover artist, and the guy who did all the movie posters for the movie). He was full of info on the Punisher movie, and it's sequel. Apparently there is work being done right now on a director's cut DVD. This was the first time I had heard anything about this. The DVD will add a few subplots that were cut out. One of these includes Stuff of Frank Castle in the war. I guess none of the footage was shot for this (there wasn’t time) so they are filming the actors on a green screen and are going to come up with some sort of animation / live action hybrid or something like that. The footage is supposed to blend in with the opening credits. Also Tim was showing off the early Punisher 2 poster, the poster was just a torso shot of the Punisher holding guns in each hand, with a 2 at the bottom of the page. Very simple and very effective...Tim also said that work should get started on the sequel soon, and that the director of the first one is working hard on the script for the second one right now.




Sounds interesting.  In the featurettes on the current DVD version, the director mentioned that over 30 minutes worth of deleted scenes were cut out, most of which were part of a subplot concerning Frank and his buddy from the FBI.  It could definately be worth checking out.


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