# The Romance of the River Kingdoms



## Dr Simon

Player places available. Ask for details .

*The Romance of the River Kingdoms*
_From Dictionary.com_:
ro·mance
–noun 
1. a novel or other prose narrative depicting heroic or marvelous deeds, pageantry, romantic exploits, etc., usually in a historical or imaginary setting.
2. the colorful world, life, or conditions depicted in such tales.
4. a baseless, made-up story, usually full of exaggeration or fanciful invention

IC Thread
Rogues Gallery

*Overview*
Romance of the River Kingdoms is a D&D 3.5 campaign set in the homebrew World of Conclave. It has a vaguely Asian feel to it, in that it has jade, spirits, fighting styles, elephant-headed gods, divinely-appointed Emperors, rice, bamboo, yen and ancient empires (etc.) but it is not meant as a Fantasy Asia. It has other elements such as worldwide banking and merchant empires, printing presses and clockwork that puts it closer to late 17th century Europe. It also draws upon a range of other influences such as Egypt, Polynesia and Imperial Russia.
www.creativeconclave.co.uk/overview.html

*The Background*
It all begins, as these things often do, with a letter.

_Dear Friend,
	It is my sad duty to inform you that the Vashti of Cormondal has passed away. From her Last Testament I know that you have, at some point in your life, had dealings with the wise woman, and I’m sure that you will remember her as a sprightly lady, lively beyond her great years, always smiling, who always knew the right thing to do or the right thing to say. She applied the teachings of the great sage Manrupashnar, of charity, humility and respect for others, to her whole life, dedicating herself to helping the less fortunate. Whether you were one of those less fortunate whom she helped, or if you were one of the many people whom she persuaded to help (as only she could), I do not know. However, in my sad duty of executing her will I have discovered a reference to your name, and I can inform you that you may stand to benefit from her estate. You may smile to know that she has appended conditions to your inheriting anything – certainly she could push the definition of ‘charity’ sometimes! I do not yet know what she requires of you, nor what you stand to gain. Her possessions were meagre but her influence was great. I have in my possession a sealed document to be opened at her funeral, and I hereby invite you to attend. It is on the 5th day of Third Month. There is no need to reply.

Your Humble Servant,

Aru Leng, (New) Vashti of Cormondal._

All of you have received this letter. The adventure assumes that you have decided to see what your legacy may be, and it begins in Cormondal following the funeral of the Old Vashti.

*Cormondal*
Cormondal is a small town situated north of the City of Llaza, where the Leng River flows into the mighty Anhoi River. To the north lies the civil-war torn Ashoyin Protectorate, to the south the prosperous lands around Llaza. Cormondal is a trading post and in the past was a centre for processing iron ore from the Cosanq’s Heart hills. Now it is mainly agricultural but takes advantage of its position at a juncture of two busy waterways. The town is built around the rivers, whose flows have been diverted amongst the stone buildings amid wide canals. Land and water meet at great stone ghats that serve as landing stages, market places, ceremonial sites and playgrounds rolled into one. Cormondal is an old settlement, where about a quarter of the buildings are now dusty ruins, home to squatters or ghost stories.

[Sblock=Character Creation]

*Ability Scores*: Use 25 point buy.

*Character Race*: Use World of Conclave races, as given below or found at www.creativeconclave.co.uk/racescultures.html

·	*Humans*. There are a variety of different racial types of human with purely role-play differences between them.
·	*Salsham’ai* (Tree Folk). Small-sized, human-like except for their prehensile feet. Wise, dextrous, with a kinship to nature spirits. Pick one of these of you like characters who are always calm, or if you want good stealth abilities.
·	*Tlaxu*. Somewhat cat-like, the tlaxu have at least three known cultural/racial subdivisions (although all are the same in mechanical terms). Due to a tlaxu invasion about 150 years ago, tlaxu are still disliked in this part of the world. Good senses and the chance of taking racial levels to improve physical stats. Pick a tlaxu if you like cat-folk, active characters or having a sinister reputation.
·	*Ura*. Tiny-sized folk from beneath the deserts of the Outer Continent, Ura are proud warriors who make opportunistic use of the discards of larger races. Pick an ura if you like small but feisty characters or gregarious travellers.
·	*Ti-Kop*. Also known as ‘gloppies’. The Ti-Kop are an aquatic race common to the shoreline. They are tough, but materially poor, with a tense relationship to humans due to fishing rights and egg-stealing. Pick a Ti-Kop if you like aquatic races or want to play a primitive race.
·	*Nai-nek-chai*. Shapechangers that can take the form of human or animal, nai-nek-chai are the descendants of mortals and great animal spirits. They generally do not fit in in either the human or animal worlds. Pick a nai-nek-chai if you like shapechangers or like playing the confused outsider.
.      *Edraldi*. Earth-spirits given mortal form, the edraldi exist in four subtypes (gem, stone, metal and earth). They have strong ties to the earth and begin to sicken if away from it for too long, but they are otherwise very tough. Pick an edraldi if you like indominatable or enigmatic characters.

*Bloodlines*
It is possible for a mortal character to carry the bloodline of a spirit race, an Immortal type or a dragon. In this game, such things are conducted using three-level "bloodline" classes that any character can multi-class into (although you can only have one bloodline type). So far, only the water spirit bloodline has been outlined (as used by Three Flowers), but if you want something like this, let me know and we can work something out. This replaces existing bloodline rules (bland) and, to a certain extent, half-creature templates. Note that dragon types use both the traditional types and the Lung dragon types, but the traditional types are more focused on their role in nature than on breath weapon, and powers are more subtle than the Half-Dragon template. 

*Character Class*: 
·	Any Pathfinder Core class allowed; Base Classes and Psionic Classes by discussion. 
·	Multi-classing may be done freely without penalty.
·	Paladins do not serve an alignment, instead there are variants based upon causes. Ask for further details.
·	Shaman characters are available, these are a homebrew variant that function mostly as spontaneous divine casters. Ask for further details.
·	Various fighting styles exist that can be used with monks or fighters. You may use the styles from the SRD, or there are also some in-house styles available. Ask for further details.
·	Priests are either wandering mendicants or ceremonial priests. Most revere the Ten Thousand Immortals as a whole, whilst a rare few focus on specific gods.
.       Psions and psychic warriors are allowed. These individuals have studied the Way of Six Energies in the mountainous land of Ut'Bharma. They see their powers as a different magical discipline, not a completely seperate mechanic.
.       Other non -SRD 3.5 classes will be considered (with PF conversion) if there is something there you would like.

*Other elements*
·	All characters begin at 1st level.
·	Use maximum starting money for your class. The standard currency is the glass yen. One yen equals one copper piece, thus 1 sp = 10 yen, 1 gp = 100 yen and so forth. Relative costs, etc. are the same as SRD.
·	All equipment, feats and spells from the SRD only (it makes it easy for me to refer to rules).
·	There is no alignment. The PDFs for creating characters from the Conclave races may discuss alignment but that is for the sake of compatibility. 
·	For hit points, you get maximum hit dice, + Con bonus, + Constitution score +1 at 1st level. Each level thereafter you get rolled hit dice + Con bonus +1. I was using a Book of Experimental Might variant of Grace/Health, but it was too cumbersome.

*Your character background*
As sparse or as detailed as you’d prefer. Try to avoid real world names – most Conclave names tend to be translated into some from of description such as Chance, Amber, Five Lives, Fifth Fortunate Son etc. Generally, the richer somebody is, the more florid their name tends to be. See the World of Conclave website for other ideas of High Imperial names.
[/sblock]

[Sblock=Shaman Class]
*Conclave Shaman*: d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, Good Will Save, 4 skill pts per level, Skill list same as Druid, plus Knowledge (Spirits))

Spells per day as Druid, but uses spontaneous casting. For spells known you select Domain lists - each one represents the powers of a spirit that you are familiar with. You get 'Spirit' Domain (I'll need to list the spells seperately) plus three others of your choice. You get to select one of the associated Domain powers as well. As you gain levels you gain new Domains and Domain Powers, plus get the chance to swap them around. There's an ability to gain saving throw bonuses against spirit powers that kicks in at 4th or 5th level.

Added Later:

*Spirit Domain* (Pathfinder Variant, courtesy of Walking Dad)
(free to Shamans, available to Clerics and Druids for a shamanic-flavored cleric/druid).

*Granted Power*: You gain the aid of a spirit companion and talk to spirits in their tongue. Free proficiency in Speak Spirit Speech.

*Spirits Advise* (Sp): You can communicate with your spirit companion as a swift action, getting a sacred bonus on on Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (spirits), Perception, and Survival checks equal to half your cleric level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

*Spirit Warrior* (Su): Starting 8th level, any weapon you hold gains ‘Ghost Touch’. Also incorporeal creatures attempting to make a Touch Attack on you must hit your normal AC instead (i.e., all your bonuses to AC are ‘Ghost Touch’ too). You can use this ability a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. The rounds don't need to be consecutive.

1-Detect Spirits*
2-Protection From Spirits*
3-Magic Circle Against Spirits*
4-Dismissal
5-Commune (with Spirits)**
6-Forbiddance*
7-Ethereal Jaunt
8-Etherealness
9-Astral Projection

*These works as Det./Prot from Evil etc. except that they work specifically against creatures with the Spirit descriptor
**As Commune, but the caster is communing with powerful spirits rather than a deity. In Conclave, there's little difference. 

Note that Domains may also be selected from the additional domains and Domain wizard variant. In the latter case they count as divine magic.
[/sblock]

*Playing the Game*
·	Dice rolls - you can use ENWorld's roller, Invis Castle or leave it up to me - any works, although I reserve the right to roll Stealth, Perception, Bluff etc.
·	Use the Spoiler boxes for ‘notes to the DM’. I’ll use them for things only certain characters would know.
·	Different coloured text for your characters direct speech seems to work quite well. I may stick to one colour for all DM characters, unless it looks like that is confusing.
·	For out of character comments, questions etc., mark as [OOC: …]
·	There are some threads of backdrop, but this is going to be a fairly organic campaign that is driven as much by character action as by NPC action.
·	Experience accrual may be slower than normal. 10th or higher level characters are considered quite important heroes/villains in the World of Conclave. Characters above 16th level or so are pretty much unheard of except in legend. Characters level on an ad hoc basis rather than through XP gain.

[sblock=Feats]
Some feats (ported and adapted from Oriental Adventures and Arcana Evolved) that might be of interest to some of you:

*Focused Attack*
Req: Weapon Focus, ranks in Concentration
Effects: As a move action, make a Concentration check. Depending on the result, the next attack you deal with a weapon of choice will cause extra damage:

Concentration check Damage
10-19 +1d6
20-29 +2d6
30-39 +3d6
40-49 +4d6
50-59 +5d6
etc.

You can't Take 10 on this check, and the attack must be made immediately after the Concentration check.

Special: If you have Quick Draw you can draw and focus (but not also move) at the same time. This also stacks with Sneak Attack damage if applicable (a focused strike against a flat-footed foe). This is an adaption of the Iaijutsu rules.

*Lion's Roar*
Req: Cha 13+, BAB +1 or better
Once per day, as a standard action you can unleash a terrifying battle cry. All opponents who are within 30 ft., able to hear you and have lower HD/ than you must make a Will save (DC 10 +1/2 your character level + your Charisma modifer) or be shaken for 1d6 rounds. (Adaptation of Ki Shout)

*Fire Mage*
Req: Spontaneous spellcaster
You add the following spells to your known spell list. Essentially you get one bonus known spell per level. This doesn't affect spells per day.

1. Fiery Eyes* - your eyes glow, illuminating area. May ignite objects with focussed gaze.
2. Animate Fire* - turn Small or smaller fire into animated object.
3. Fire Wings* - arms become flaming wings. May fly and burn things.
4. Wall of Fire
5. Fire Breath* - breath fire 1/round. 1d8 per 2 levels to 1 target in 15ft.
6. Fires of Purity* - subject bathed in aura of fire, becoming dangerous weapon.
7. Firestorm
8. Incendiary Cloud
9. Internal Fire* - target burns from inside out.
*These are all from Oriental Adventures, and may need a little bit of re-jigging to make them 3.5 compatible.

Note: Yes, this is more potent than the existing feat that allows spontaneous casters *one* extra spell, but I don't think it's too unbalancing as its benefits play out over a long period. I doubt we'll be seeing 18th level in a PBP game, unless we fast-forward over a few levels.
This, obviously, is aimed at Annika, but either Ape or Jar'Thol could take it (as spontaneous casters), or similarly themed lists could be made for other focuses.

*Scribe Scroll* becomes *Craft Spell-Completion Item*. The end product is the same - an item that gives a single use of a spell, that can be used by anyone with that spell on his spell list. It may be a scroll - sutras and ofudas are fairly common, it may be a talisman or lucky charm. The exact form is up to you, depending on the character of your spellcaster.

*Brew Potion* becomes *Craft Single Use Item*. This is a single use magical item, usable by anybody. It may be a potion or oil, it may be a specially grown fruit, it may be a scroll, it may be a pebble inscribed with magical symbols. Most spells can be turned into single use items. Ranged attack spells are usually turned into 'detonations' that require a ranged touch attack to work. Some special cases may need review on an individual basis.

*The Bonded Item* feat may be taken by any character of 3rd level or above, provided that they have used the item in question through several dangerous situations (and it has made a difference). A bonded item gives a +1 enhancement bonus to its 'normal use'. Most common would be a weapon, gaining this bonus to attack. A suit of armour may also benefit but other items such as thieves tools, rope, artists brushes and so forth are all candidates. Once bonded, the wielder can also spend XP to add further enhancements to the bonded item. Thus a bonded sword can gain further bonuses or special abilities. Obviously this is easier to adjudicate for weapons and armour but imagination can be applied to other equipment.

This means that, for example, swords become legendary because of who wields them, not who made them.

Losing a bonded item may or may not be a real pain. They should be fixable, with maybe a monetary cost for the ceremonial materials. Still on the subject of swords, that gives you a quest to retrieve the Green Destiny sword, or to reforge the Sword That Was Broken etc.

*Chaotic Bloodline*
*Prerequisite*: at least one level of  spirit bloodline
*Benefit*: You gain a +2 bonus to all Charisma-based skills against creatures with the Concordant subtype. Against creatures with the Concordant subtype you gain Damage Reduction 2 and the ability to deliver a smite. This gives you a bonus to attack rolls equal to Charisma bonus (if any) and a bonus to damage equal to your character level. The effect lasts until either you or your designated foe are dead. If you already have a smite ability, you gain one extra use per day and may use your smite ability against Concordant creatures. In addition, once per day you can re-roll any d20 roll that you make, and choose the better result. If you take this feat, you may never take the Concordant Bloodline feat.

*Concordant Bloodline*
*Prerequisite*: at least one level of  spirit bloodline
*Benefit*: You gain a +2 bonus to all Charisma-based skills against creatures with theChaotic subtype. Against creatures with the Chaotic subtype you gain Damage Reduction 2 and the ability to deliver a smite. This gives you a bonus to attack rolls equal to Charisma bonus (if any) and a bonus to damage equal to your character level. The effect lasts until either you or your designated foe are dead. If you already have a smite ability, you gain one extra use per day and may use your smite ability against Chaotic creatures. In addition, once per day, you may Take10 on any d20 roll that you make, even if you you would not normally be able to. This includes attack rolls and saving throws. If you take this feat, you may never take the Chaotic Bloodline feat.

*Heavenly Bloodline*
*Prerequisite*: at least one level of  spirit bloodline
*Benefit*: You gain a +2 bonus to all Charisma-based skills against creatures with the Heavenly subtype. Against creatures with the Netherworld subtype you gain Damage Reduction 2 and the ability to deliver a smite. This gives you a bonus to attack rolls equal to Charisma bonus (if any) and a bonus to damage equal to your character level. The effect lasts until either you or your designated foe are dead. If you already have a smite ability, you gain one extra use per day and may use your smite ability against Netherworld creatures. Once per day you may use daylight as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your character level. If you take this feat, you may never take the Netherworld Bloodline feat.

*Netherworld Bloodline*
*Prerequisite*: at least one level of  spirit bloodline
*Benefit*: You gain a +2 bonus to all Charisma-based skills against creatures with the Netherworld subtype. Against creatures with the Heavenly subtype you gain Damage Reduction 2 and the ability to deliver a smite. This gives you a bonus to attack rolls equal to Charisma bonus (if any) and a bonus to damage equal to your character level. The effect lasts until either you or your designated foe are dead. If you already have a smite ability, you gain one extra use per day and may use your smite ability against Heavenly creatures. Once per day you may use darkness as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your character level. If you take this feat, you may never take the Heavenly Bloodline feat.

*Rarified Spirit*
*Prerequisite*: at least one level of spirit bloodline
*Benefit*: You gain a +3 bonus to all saving throws against the spells and spell-like abilities of mortal creatures. A ‘mortal’ creature is any that is not a Dragon, Fey, Elemental, Outsider or Undead, or does not possess the Chaotic, Concordant, Extraplanar, Heavenly, Netherworld or Spirit subtype. Native Outsiders count as ‘mortal’.
[/sblock]

[sblock=Houserules]
*Spell Slots*
As all the casters are spontaneous, I'm thinking of including a ruling from Arcana Evolved.

You can 'weave together' three spell slots of a given level to create one of a higher level. Thus you can give up 3 0th level slots to cast another 1st level spell.

Conversely, you can 'unweave' a higher level spell slot to give two slots of the next level down. Thus you can give up one 2nd level slot to create two 1st level slots.

Weaving up can be done indefinitely. You can weave three 0th level spell slots, add that new 1st level spell slots to 2 existing 1st level spell slots, weave those three to give a new 2nd level, and so forth.

Weaving down can only be done for one level. The spell energy 'released' is weaker and less stable. Spell slots created by unweaving a higher level spell cannot be unwoven further.

0th level spells cannot be unwoven. 9th level spells cannot be woven. (Neither has anywhere to go!).

This gives greater flexibility to casters and makes them more useful for longer. It also adds a very fun element of resource management where a caster can 'throw his last bit on magical power' into one hopefully crucial spell, rather than being stuck with a bunch of 0th level resistance spells.

*Death and Dying*
Again, adopted from Arcana Evolved/Book of Experimental Might.

If you have a Con score that gives you a bonus, your 'disabled' range spans 0 and minus that bonus. Your 'dying' range then goes to minus your Con.

So, if you have Con 14 (+2 bonus), you are disabled from 0 to -2 hit points, and dying from -3 to -14 hit points. If you have a Con 9 (-1), you are disabled as normal on 0 hit points and dying from -1 to -9 hit points.
[/sblock]

[sblock=Story So Far]
*The Vashti's Bequest*
A small group of disparate individuals were brought together by the last will and testament of Vasu Leng, the Vashti of Cormondal. The "Old" Vashti left them a quest and a riddle, to retrieve a statue from an old temple, abandoned for thirty years following repeated floods.

The temple was just an hour's walk out of town, where they found it occupied by a pack of wolves, led by a grey-backed wolf that could speak human language. The combined diplomacy of Jar'Thol, Three Flowers, Annika and Growling Ape eventually persuaded the wolves to let them pass safely, after Jar'Thol made an audacious promise to negotiate a treaty between the wolves and the people of Cormondal.

Inside the temple, they found the lower levels flooded and inhabited by a malevolent water spirit. These hidden lower levels were decorated with designs of the moon, in the time of legends before it was broken. Further progress required opening a trapdoor in the floor, which drained away the flood water and revealed a secret vault occupied by "greedy spirits", hoarding the treasures of the temple including the statue that the group sought. These spirits were defeated, although one escaped in the form of a blowfly. The Vashti's successor, her grand-niece Aru Leng (known as the "Young Vashti"), theorised that the greedy spirits may have been robbers who were trapped by the floodwaters in the act of theft.

The statue, of a woman with upraised arms, combined with an orb left to the Young Vashti by her predecessor to form a statue of a woman holding aloft a glowing orb, but also opened the statue to reveal another cryptic clue left by the Old Vashti. This was a map to an island up the Leng River (Ropoko Island), another riddle about "the River is the Key" and a short piece of music.

*Up the Leng River*
The group took passage upriver with the Young Vashti's fisherman grandfather, an old rogue called Wen. The local Merchant's League factor heard of their planned trip and paid them to deliver a message to some mines in Tigerskin Gorge, a stop on their journey.

Arriving at Tigerskin Gorge they found the mines in disrepair, and Growling Ape learned from a tribe of Red-Faced Macaques that the humans had gone away. Exploring the shacks, Jar'Thol stumbled upon a mutated creature, like a half-man, half-ooze, with melted skin and an acidic touch. Once this creature was defeated a further search of the mine buildings revealed a logbook that suggested that the mine had been struck with a disease due to a strange metal found by the camp's magician. Not wishing to get involved with this at the moment, the group left a warning sign and continued upriver.

At Ropoko Island they found it occupied by some men of the Lion Guard, an elite unit loyal to General Chandrat, one of the leaders in the civil war in Ashoyin across the river. Fortunately, diplomacy once again prevailed and the Lion Guard allowed the group to study the old shrine on the island. The shrine was sealed with a shempo door, a magical ward that only opens if the correct symbol is drawn upon it. Jar'Thol correctly interpreted the Old Vashti's clue that the High Imperial for "river" would open the door.

*The Spirit Realm*
Inside was a simple shrine with a bell. Ringing the bell would transfer anyone inside the shrine to its counterpart in the Spirit Realm. Annika was first through and found that the Spirit Realm version of Ropoko Island was in the grip of winter, and guarded by a terrible ice demon. Luckily her friends followed shortly and they were able to defeat the ice demon whereupon spring returned.

Searching the spirit island revealed a flute hanging from a tree. Three Flowers recalled his childhood training and played the tune in the Vashti's message, summoning a river spirit, Catfish the Ferryman. Catfish took them to the spirit-folk village of Heartsflow, where they met the village elders Master Salmon and Mistress Iris, drank moondraught and learned some interesting facts.

The Old Vashti was once an adventurer and regular vistor to Heartsflow along with Three Flowers' grandfather, Flying Geese. The last time they visited, the old River King went away with them, and the Vashti left a scroll with Salmon and Iris that they were supposed to pass on to the party. However, with the old king gone his nephew took over and began a tyrannical rule, closing off contact with the mortal realm and allowing his nine sons and daughters to rule the spirit river as their own fiefdom. Prince Oxbow, leader of his father's armies, had confiscated the scroll, foiling whatever trail the Vashti had left. Salmon and Iris suggested trying to contact Princess Springborn, kindest of the River King's children, but warned that spirits with royal blood can instantly spot mortals, who were outlawed in the new king's realm. One suggestion for overcoming this was to find the Jade Elixir, which grants immortality. Growling Ape remembered a tale of the Monkey King stealing it for mortals, but no-one knew where to start looking for such a valuable item.

Heartsflow was then visited by Prince Flood and his Knights of the Cataclysm, the River King's youngest son and his secret police. Luckily the mortals managed to hide, and some cunning bluffing by Growling Ape put them off the scent. However, deeming it too dangerous to remain in the Spirit Realm the group returned to the Mortal Realm until such time as they could find the Jade Elixir. Salmon gave them a flute to summon Catfish if they were near water, and a magical tattoo to help them.

*Spiders of Kumo Forest*
Upon return to Cormondal the group found further trouble afoot. Local farmers were blaming attacks on livestock on the temple wolves, and demanded that those who made the treaty should sort it out. A quick study of the damaged animals revealed that it was unlikely to be wolves, but unclear what was really responsible. 
At this time, Jar'Thol and Xielt the tlaxu had to leave the group for personal business. Jar'Thol sponsored the albino salsham'ai bounty hunter known as Mystal Mar to be his replacement, and the Young Vashti volunteered a nai-nek-chai criminal, Shakou, to assist, or face imprisonment.

The revised group traced what was thought to be a ghostly ape-like creature into the haunted bamboos of Kumo Forest to the south of Cormondal, but found giant spiders and two feral girls - one otherwise normal, the other a pale-skinned mutant with poisonous claws. The spiders were eventually defeated and the girls subdued and taken back to the Vashti where research showed that they were probably twins abandoned thirteen years ago by the Old Vashti under orders from Magister Ten, administrator of Cormondal. The girls' mother had been infected by the poison _wombtwist_ and although only one twin had shown signs of its teratogenic effect, both were legally required to be killed. Miraculously, they had survived albeit in a feral and savage state. The mother, driven insane by the experience, had been sent to the Island of the Moon-Touched, an asylum upriver near Ashoyin.

In the canyon where the spiders and the feral girls lived, the group also discovered another shempo door, although the symbol for opening this one was unknown, and so its exploration was put on hold for the time being. The Vashti conjectured that other means could be employed to bypass the ward, by finesse or main force.

*Shading Willow Court*
The Vashti received two letters, one an invitation to dine with Magister Ten and other dignitaries of Cormondal, the other a barely literate note asking for help against a Paper Lantern Gang, a criminal group using magic for extortion, in a poor district of Cormondal. Investigating this first,the group came upon Shading Willow Court where the gang lived and, after protracted fighting against first the gang, then their tame undead and finally a monstrous Netherworld creature called a headhanger, the remaining fragments of the gang was driven from their headquarters.

The headquarters revealed evidence of drug use, including a false-bottomed chest sent from the upriver city of Ashoyin, bearing the excise stamp of House Feloung of the Merchants League. The party rescued a prisoner of the gang, a badly beaten man called Dirt, one of the original beneficiaries of the Vashti's will. Dirt had abandoned the Vashti's quest as frivolous, but sought to atone by tackling the gang. He provided some useful intelligence on the gang activities.

Aiming to put a stop to the paper lantern gang once and for all, the group tracked them to one of their city hideouts and discovered an underground passage that led to an old cistern beneath the city. Here they fought the remnants of the group, including a dark spirit summoned by the leader, but yet again the undead leader escaped, possibly with one other undead gang member. 

The Laburnum Festival
The following day, the group went with the Vashti to the residence of Magister Ten, Chief Administrator for Cormondal. Here they also met Mistress Kumiko of House Feloung, who seemed interested in their deeds. The reception was interrupted, however, by the appearance of a rat-like spirit that possessed Shakou, causing her to stab the Vashti and Mistress Kumiko before fleeing. Annika, Growling Ape and Mystal Mar were able to capture their friend but under the Magister's orders they were confined to house arrest at the _narvinda_ whilst Shakou was taken away by the guards.

Unable to simply leave matters be, Annika, Growling Ape and Mystal instead headed back into the tunnels connected to the cistern beneath Cormondal, finding a large cavern beneath the Magisters house where Shakou was being held by a group of pokan (goblin-like creatures from the Netherworld) and used in arcane experiments - possibly extracting her dreams to distil into nightmare poison. The pokan, their alchemical workroom, the last of the Paper Lantern Gang and the rat-like hate spirit were destroyed and the group explored the passages that connected the tunnel to the Magisters House. Here they were found by Chalamchai, Clerk of the Glittering Waters to the Magister, whom they persuaded to show them the way out, returning the the Narvinda Manrupashnar with a vial of red liquid (sauce?), a block of ochre resin (lubricant?) and a phial of distilled nightmares salvaged from the pokan laboratory.
[/sblock]

[SBLOCK=Loot]
These are the current acquisitions of the group, updated when appropriate:

*Vashti's Legacy:*
20,000 yen (200gp) each to Annika, Three Flowers, Jar'Thol. Growling Ape and Xielt.

*From Greedy Spirits:*
Ornate pitcher worth 11,000 yen (110 gp)
Silver bowl worth 5000 yen (50 gp)

*From Heartsflow:*
Summoning flute
River Mark - one-use for either _water breathing_ or _fire resistance 5_ (Annika, Ape, Jar'Thol, Xielt and Three Flowers)

*From Kumo Spider Demons:*
Assorted gems and precious stones totalling 95,900 yen (959 gp)
Jade talisman of a cat - unidentified transmutation magic
Wooden talisman of rat - "scroll" of _cleave to the shadows_
Tortoiseshell talisman - "scroll" of _protection from spirits_
Bone talisman of man with a key - "scroll" of _knock_
Spider Face Shield - stats as darkwood, can be enchanted.

*Courtesy of Sister Archivist*
A _protection from spirits_ sutra, one-use only. One each.

*Found in Pokan Laboratory*
1 phial distilled nightmare poison
1 phial red liquid
1 block ochre resin
[/sblock]


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## Blackrat

So. Are we talking about something like Dynasty Warriors PbP  or something completely different? Seriously that is the image the title conjured in my mind. But this sounds interesting either way.


----------



## hafrogman

I'm interested in putting forth a character for this game.

A human of class to be determined, I'm leaning towards Monk if you would allow it not so much as someone trained in a monastary and more as someone who learned to defend himself without being able to afford weapons or armor.

Dirt is a young man, as poor as his namesake.  Having lost his old life, he stands at a crossroads and his ready to surrender himself to the vagaries of fate.

[sblock=Background]_One day, a great lady was traveling through the countryside, when she came upon a crossroads.  A young man sat in the crossroads, crying over his fate.  A man of no possessions and no trade, he could not marry the woman he loved.  He had nothing to offer her except the dirt beneath his feet.

Being a kind lady, she asked after his troubles.
Being a wise lady, she informed him that even dirt could have value.
Being a generous lady, she gave him a trade.

The great lady gifted the man with a small plot of land, so that he might be a farmer, and marry his love.  In time the man and his love were wed, thanks to the great Vashti of Cormondal.  And in more time, a son was born to them.  They named him Dirt, so that they would never forget the lady's generosity and wisdom.

Years passed in happiness for the couple and their son.  But eventually war, famine and drought came to their land.  Livestock died, or were stolen.  Crops withered.  Disease and violence took the couple, and maybe in death they will be reunited.

...

One day, a messenger was traveling through the countryside, when he came upon a farmhouse.  A young man sat in the house, silently facing his fate.  A man of no possessions and no trade, he had nothing to his name other than the dirt that was his name.  Filthy, tired, and covered in soot from his parents' funeral pyres, he contemplated the point of a dagger.  The messenger delivered his letter, and a young man found enough will to rise to his feet and walk out the door. . ._[/sblock]


----------



## Blackrat

Oh wow. Froggy. That is by far the most thought-provoking character backgroud I've ever read . Now I seriously have to get on doing something cool too.


----------



## Shayuri

I'm interested in a nai-nek-chai...perhaps a sorceror or rogue...

Or do you prefer a wu-jen or shugenja?


----------



## Dr Simon

hafrogman said:
			
		

> I'm interested in putting forth a character for this game.
> 
> A human of class to be determined, I'm leaning towards Monk if you would allow it not so much as someone trained in a monastary and more as someone who learned to defend himself without being able to afford weapons or armor.
> 
> Dirt is a young man, as poor as his namesake.  Having lost his old life, he stands at a crossroads and his ready to surrender himself to the vagaries of fate.




Yes, looks good to me. I'm perfectly happy to use the monk class as the framework for such a character.


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat said:
			
		

> So. Are we talking about something like Dynasty Warriors PbP  or something completely different? Seriously that is the image the title conjured in my mind. But this sounds interesting either way.




I don't know Dynasty Warriors, but I was going for something evocative of the Water Margin so if there's a common root there, that's probably it.    (Or more directly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms)

Not that the content really has anything to do with either of those works, more of a thematic thing.


----------



## Dr Simon

Shayuri said:
			
		

> I'm interested in a nai-nek-chai...perhaps a sorceror or rogue...
> 
> Or do you prefer a wu-jen or shugenja?




Hmm... I think stick with SRD characters. I was tempted to include some Wu Jen spells from OA, for style reasons, but my copy of it is currently residing in the attic, so I'm leaning towards SRD spells with whatever visual effects you like (if you want your magic missiles to appear as a swarm of origami cranes or blazing shurikens, for example, they still work the same).


----------



## The Rolling Man

This all looks like an interesting and well developed setting. Right now I'm thinking of a Salsham’ai druid but I'm not sure if I can find a good way to link him with the hook you gave us. Maybe he was abducted at a young age for some reason and the Vashti was instrumental in returning him to the forest.


----------



## Blackrat

Yeah. Dynasty Warriors is pretty much _Romance of the Three Kingdoms_ in hack'n'slash.

But to the character. I'm thinking about a minor noble who has a long and elaborate name. Maybe a member of Cult of Beauty if it's available as player option. Snobby and trained in arts. Don't know of class yet.


----------



## Shayuri

Hmm...does Natural Spell apply to Nai-nek-chai in animal form?


----------



## Dr Simon

Rollling Man:  Don't forget that the hook allows for the character to have helped the Vashti as well as having been helped by her. The salsham'ai are quite affable and kind people on the whole, so perhaps he is connected to the Vashti through a shared good deed.

For salsham'ai characters, there are a couple of feats that didn't make it to the PDF. Enhanced Camouflage means that the camouflage bonus is the same no matter what the background is. Multidextrous removes some of the penalty for using feet for fine dexterity.

Blackrat: Certainly the first meaning of the Cult of Beauty, that is young rich folk obsessed with looks, is possible for PCs. The other type, murderers of the aesthetically offensive, would probably not be PC material (although I'm not averse to a character slipping to the dark side). 

Shayuri: Officially, no. However it strikes me as a fairly narrow ruling so I'd say yes. Nai-nek-chai, with their spirit ancestry, ought to have a touch of the magical about them. Note that casting spells would come under 'not normal behaviour' for anyone closely observing the animal!


----------



## Blackrat

So tell me about paladins. If I understood correctly they are not restricted to LG? Is there a cause that reveres beauty?


----------



## Dr Simon

To tell you the truth I don't have solid details worked out, but I'm looking at something like the Champions in Monte Cooks Arcana Evolved (where you can have champions of freedom, justice, life, death, light, darkness, knowledge etc.)

So, yes, you could have a paladin of beauty, that would be an interesting concept   . I'm not sure what the powers would be specifically (although the Charisma bonus to saving throws still seems appropriate). If we both have a think on that, and I'll get back to you tomorrow.


----------



## Blackrat

So instead of Smite Evil I get Bump Uglies?  Yeah, If you would take some time working some rules I'd like to give Paladin of Beauty a shot. I think LN would probably be appropriate alignment.


----------



## Redclaw

I would love to join in here, possibly with a melee-oriented ranger; a plains Tlaxu seems like a good fit.  Xielt would likely be a guide who lives on the border between the Tlaxu lands and human society.  He had been hired by the Vashti for one or more missions involving guiding human missionaries (or some similar group) to Tlaxu settlements.  Depending on the mechanics, he might dual-wield claw-sticks.


----------



## Walking Dad

Would a spontanous casting druid be okay?

I would like to add this, too.

[sblock]Druid

The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter.

Gain
Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).

Lose
Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions). [/sblock]

Human or Nai-nek-chai (Baboon)


----------



## A Passing Maniac

Oh, I wish I had noticed this earlier this morning... though I am the seventh to submit a character idea, I hope I might still be taken under consideration. The World of Conclave sounds like a wonderful setting, and I'd love to join the game.

I was considering a human bard, skilled with both the word and the sword, the son of a minor noble family from Utashar. He became disillusioned with his parents' beloved but stagnant and declining homeland, and so struck out on his own to experience the world. And on his travels, he happened to meet the Vashti... though I am not sure exactly yet what happened when he did.    Later tonight, when I have had the opportunity to think on the character a little more, I shall post more about him.


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat: LOL! One question - do you see him more as protecting beauty or as destroying ugliness? Or somewhere in between? 

Redclaw: I'm pretty sure that there are one-handed and two-handed versions of the claw-sticks, so a dual-wield would work.

Walking Dad: I like that particular variant and would be happy to allow it. No problems for spontaneous casting either.  Either race is fine.

Passing Maniac: Sounds good, I'm willing to go up to seven.


----------



## Redclaw

Do the races (specifically Tlaxu for me) have any racial ability bonuses or penalties?  I could find that on the pdf.

My thoughts about the claw-stick center around the details of the weapon.  Is it a light weapon (and thus open to weapon finesse)?  How much damage does it do?  Is it piercing or slashing?  Any details you can give would be great.


----------



## hafrogman

Redclaw said:
			
		

> Do the races (specifically Tlaxu for me) have any racial ability bonuses or penalties?  I could find that on the pdf.
> 
> My thoughts about the claw-stick center around the details of the weapon.  Is it a light weapon (and thus open to weapon finesse)?  How much damage does it do?  Is it piercing or slashing?  Any details you can give would be great.



Off to the side of the races and culture page is the link to the pdf for creating a character of the given races.

http://www.creativeconclave.co.uk/tlaxucharacter.pdf

But quick answers.  Racial ability adjustments: None.
One-handed weapon. (not light)
1d2 damage.  18-20/x2.  Slashing.

Clawstick. This is a wooden staff set with claws,
teeth and other small sharp items (commonly taken
from fallen foes). The clawstick causes painful tearing
wounds, allowing the user to add +1 damage against
unarmoured enemies. Any armour, including natural
armour, denies the user this bonus.


----------



## Redclaw

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Off to the side of the races and culture page is the link to the pdf for creating a character of the given races.
> 
> http://www.creativeconclave.co.uk/tlaxucharacter.pdf



Thanks.  I had found the link, but the big gap after the flavor stuff left me thinking that was it for some reason.  That'll teach me not to look at the number of pages in the file.


----------



## Blackrat

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> Blackrat: LOL! One question - do you see him more as protecting beauty or as destroying ugliness? Or somewhere in between?



Probably more of the first at start and MAYBE falling to the "Murdering ugly people" type later. But I think best would be somewhere between, closer to the first.


----------



## Dr Simon

Redclaw said:
			
		

> Thanks.  I had found the link, but the big gap after the flavor stuff left me thinking that was it for some reason.  That'll teach me not to look at the number of pages in the file.




1d2 damage doesn't sound like much, I think that some of the Ura file wasn't written over for that table. Actually, a few of those stats look screwy to me. All of the 'claw' weapons ought to have the same critical modifier. Since they are tearing, slashing type weapons, assume that they all have 18-20/x2 and not the x3 fort he long-claw (this is more a piercing type of crit. modifier).

Assume 1d6 damage for the short-claw and 1d8 for the long-claw instead, that sounds more like a suitable amount!

You could do a light version of the same that causes 1d4 damage - the main factor, after all, is the length of the piece of wood that you use.

I think the rules for the klai dagger are rather complex, too. Gah! Looks like I'll be doing some more editing!


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat said:
			
		

> Probably more of the first at start and MAYBE falling to the "Murdering ugly people" type later. But I think best would be somewhere between, closer to the first.




One option is that we could come up with a Champion variant for you to play:
http://tinyurl.com/268y8u

However, going from straight SRD Paladin:

Paladin of Beauty
Claiming inspiration from Immortals such as Lady Moon Jasmine (dreams), Yash-Yabha (daydreams and dawn light), Banarjahab (construction), Tyannah (romantic love) and various other Immortals connected with the Nine Arts of civilisation, creative processes or physical attraction, the Paladin of Beauty seeks to defend all that makes the soul swell with delight by its mere existence. 
To create a thing of beauty, or to care for things that are beautiful, shows how mortals can aspire to the creative ability of the Immortals. To destroy such things wantonly is a sin against all that is right and good, it is to deny the Divine and it is an act associated with the evil spirits of the Underwater Darkness World.
The Paladin of Beauty realises that sometimes beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that true beauty sometimes comes from within (and other cliches). They will not hold it against a person for having a mis-shapen appearance if that person has a good soul. Whilst a slug or a plain of volcanic ash may not be lovely to look at, there is a still a savage or alien beauty to them, and they are the works of the Immortals.
A Paladin of Beauty may not be quite so magnanimous. Some may have very personal definitions of what is beautiful, and may seek to impose those views on others rather than simply defend them.

Add Perform to class skills (beauty is art, art is beauty etc.). The class already has Craft and Profession which could also be used for various 

1st level: 
Replace Aura of Good with Aura of Style. A Paladin of Beauty always remains well-groomed; even if dropped into a dung heap he will emerge clean and smelling fresh. (Su)

Replace Smite Evil with Smite Defiler. As Smite Good, but it works against individuals whom them Paladin of Beauty knows to have willfully caused malicious damage to a person or item. This would exclude, for example, a construction worker demolishing a house as part of his job, but would include somebody who smashed a sculpture for no reason. 

Sense Defiler. As the Detect Evil, except that 'defiler' is defined as somebody who has committed an act of vandalism or wanton destruction in the past 24 hours

Looking at the other paladin abilities, they probably don't need much modification, based on the idea that disease, undead and injury are all considered to be against the natural order and therefore things of ugliness. Maybe the Aura of Courage ought to be modified, but perhaps not. The paladin's un-natural beauty is inspiring to those around him.


----------



## Dr Simon

*Characters so far*

So, players and character ideas so far, I have:

Hafrogman: Dirt; human monk
Blackrat: Seng Hua Shu; human paladin of beauty
Shayuri: Nai-nek-chai (species as yet undecided). Sorcerer or rogue.
Rolling Man: Salsham'ai druid or shaman
Redclaw: Xielt; tlaxu ranger
Walking Dad: Growling Ape; baboon nai-nek-chai spontaneous druid, avenger variant.
Passing Maniac: Ying Taramaya; human bard

Human racial types:
Nekuu - these are the most Oriental in appearance, and the most numerous. In Imperial society they are usually considered to be lower caste, noble workers of the soil etc. (which means that if you look a bit nekuuese you find it hard to advance to a position of authority).
Ashara - tall, coffee-skinned, slightly androgynous (think Egyptian wall paintings). Long been in positions of power.
Anhoi - originally from the Anhoi River region. Tendency towards round faces and dark curly hair. No social prejudice against them.
Dron - from the western Empire. Dron have bright orange skin, blue eyes and blond hair. Dron born from mixed marriages always seem to have full Dronish characteristics.
Atala - green skinned. Quite rare, mainly found in coastal areas. Thought to have originated from a land long sunk beneath the waves.
Thell - from a small valley kingdom in the farn north-east. Somewhat Scandinavian in appearance. Twins are common.
Others - Vaartans from the Khazarate of Vaarta to the west are lighter skinned with fair or dark hair. Visitors from the far continent of Fallen Sun have varying shades of dark skin.
All human types can, of course, intermix and most people have a mix of characteristics.


----------



## Blackrat

That smite defiler seems pretty weak compared to smite evil. It seems too loosely defined. May I suggest something like "Smite Foul" and just say it affects certain monster types (aberration, undead and maybe one more, perhaps ooze or vermin)

Stats: http://invisiblecastle.com/stats/view/16445/


		Code:
	

Name: Seng Hua Shu (Three peach-flowers in the moonlight)
Class: Paladin of Beauty
Race: Human (Ashara)
Size: Medium
Gender: Male
Age: 25
Height: 6'3"
Weight: 170
Eyes: Hazel
Hair: Black
Skin: Coffee

Str: 14 (+2)
Dex: 12 (+1)
Con: 14 (+2)
Int: 10 (+0)
Wis: 12 (+1)
Cha: 14 (+2)

Level: 1        XP: ???
BAB: 1          HP: 27 (1d10+2+14+1)
Grapple: 3      Dmg Red: None
Speed: 30       Spell Res: None
Init: 1         
ACP: -4         


                   Base  Armor  Shld  Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total
Armor:              10     4      2    1                      17
Touch: 11              Flatfooted: 16 

                         Base   Mod  Misc  Total
Fort:                      2     2           4
Ref:                       0     1           1
Will:                      0     1           1

Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical
White Lotus (scimitar)    4       1d6+2     18-20/x2


Languages: 


Abilities:
Aura of Style, Bump Uglies 1/day, Detect Uglies,


Feats:
Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Quick Draw


Skills: Points: 2x4+4=12
Max Ranks: 4/2         Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total
Diplomacy                4     2           6
Craft (Calligraphy)      4     0           4
Perform (Poetry)         4     2           6


Equipment:         cost (Y)   Weight

scimitar             1500        4
Large wood shield     700       10
Chainshirt          10000       25
backpack              200        2
Traveller's outfit      F        5
courtier's outfit    3000        6
jewelry              5000        1
bedroll                10        5
signet ring           500        x
waterskin             100        4
scroll case           100      0.5
Trail rations x 4     200        4
Ink-vial              800        x
Ink-pen                10        x
paper x 5             200        x
Flint & Steel         100        x
candle x 5              5        x
Sealing Wax           100        1
Whetstone               2        1
Pouch                 100      0.5
5 silver Y           1000        x
3 blue Y              300        x 
3 Red Y                60        x
13 Green Y             13        x      
-----------------------------------
                    22627       69

Here's what I have in mind visually: http://www.koei.com/launch/dw5/chara_img/chara_popup_15.jpg


----------



## Walking Dad

I will take the baboon nai-nek-chai.

[sblock=Growling Ape]
Name: Growling Ape
Race: Nai-nek-chai (Baboon)
Class: spontanous druid, swift hunter variant

HPs: 24
XPs: 0

Str: 12 (4 pt)
Dex: 14 (6 pt)
Con: 14 (6 pt)
Int: 10 (4 pt, -2 racial)
Wis: 16 (6 pt, +2 racial)
Cha: 10 (2pt)

Bodily able and wise but no very friendly demeanor 

BAB: +0
AC: 15, Touch: 15, Flat Footed: 13
Fort: +4
Refl: +2
Will: +5
Move: 30'
Init: +2
Listen/Spot: +7
Loads: Light: 0-43 / Medium 44 - 86 / Heavy 87 - 130
[SBLOCK=Racial Traits]
- +2 Wis, -2 Int. Nai-nek-chai are creatures of instinct, not intellect. Nai-nek-chai base speed is 30 feet.
- Medium: As medium-sized creatures (in their humanoid form) nai-nek-chai g
bonuses or penalties based upon their size. Shapechanger: All nai-nek-chai are Humanoid with the Shapechanger subtype. Animal Blood: Although Humanoid, nai-nek-chai are also considered to have the Animal Type for the purposes of spells and effects. For example, a nai-nek-chai could be affected by both a charm person and a charm animal spell.
- Low Light Vision.
- Animal Form: A nai-nek-chai may assume the shape of one species of Small or Tiny Animal. To do so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A nai-nek-chai may assume animal form a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Constitution bonus. He may remain in this form indefinitely, and may return to human form in the same fashion (this does not count towards the number of changes per day).
Any armour or clothing worn at the time of transformation simply falls off. Magical worn items may remain, at the GM’s discretion. In animal form, the nai-nek-chai’s mental ability scores are unchanged. He keeps any skills that he has (although it may not be possible to use some in the new form). He gains a modifier to his physical ability scores depending upon the animal form taken (See Table: Animal Forms below). He may also gain any modes of locomotion that the new form has, and any racial skill bonuses. The change in size will affect armour class, attack rolls, Hide and grapple checks. In animal form a nai-nek-chai gains any extraordinary abilities of the animal form and any attack forms (and is automatically proficient in their use). Where the creature has a single attack form, the nai-nek chai applies 1.5x his Strength bonus to damage. Where an animal form has secondary attacks these are made at –5 to the attack roll and x1/2 Strength modifier to damage. A nai-nek-chai may learn the Multiattack feat to reduce this penalty and may also learn feats such as Weapon Focus and apply the effects to his natural attacks. A nai-nek-chai is also eligible to learn Improved Natural Attack, Ability Focus and other applicable ‘monster’ feats. Improved Natural Armour, if taken, applies only to the nai-nek-chai’s animal form.
[/SBLOCK]

Weapons:
Club -- +1 To Hit, 1d6 Damage (x2)
Sling -- +2 To Hit, 1d4 Damage ( x2)

Class Features:
AC Bonus
Animal Companion (waiting for ape on level 4)
Favoured Enemy (human)
Fast Movement (30 ft. base speed)
Track Feat (Bonus)
Nature Sense
Wild Empathy


Skills:
Concentration: +6 (4 ranks, +2 Con)
Listen: +7 (4 ranks, +3 Wis)
Spot: +7 (4 ranks, +3 Wis)
Survival: +9 (4 ranks, +3 Wis +2 nature sense)

Languages:
Common, ?

Feats:
Bonus: Track
1. Medium Animal Form

Spells
4/Day Level 0: Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Light, Read Magic
3/Day Level 1: Goodberry, Shillelagh, Summon Nature's Ally I.

[SBLOCK=Baboon Traits]
Str: 16 (4 pt, +4 animal)
Dex: 18 (6 pt, +4 animal)
Con: 16 (6 pt, +2 animal)
Int: 10 (4 pt, -2 racial)
Wis: 16 (6 pt, +2 racial)
Cha: 10 (2pt)

BAB: +0
AC: 17, Touch: 17, Flat Footed: 13
Fort: +5
Refl: +4
Will: +5
Move: 30', cimb 30'
Init: +4
Listen/Spot: +7
Loads: Light: 0-76 / Medium 77 - 153 / Heavy 154 - 230[/sblock]
Equipment: 


		Code:
	

Equipment:               Cost  Weight
Quarterstaff               -Y    4lb
Dagger                   200Y    1lb

Fish Hook                 10Y    -lb
Flint and Steel          100Y    -lb
Pouch, Belt (2)          200Y    1lb
Rations, Trail (4 days)  200Y    4lb
Scrolls x2 (CLW)        5000Y    -lb
Waterskin                100Y    4lb
Peasant's Outfit           -Y    -lb

2190Y

Thanks to Dirt   
[/sblock]


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat said:
			
		

> That smite defiler seems pretty weak compared to smite evil. It seems too loosely defined. May I suggest something like "Smite Foul" and just say it affects certain monster types (aberration, undead maybe one more, perhaps ooze)
> 
> Stats: http://invisiblecastle.com/stats/view/16445/




Smite Foul sounds good to me.


----------



## Blackrat

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> Smite Foul sounds good to me.



So aberration, undead and ooze? Would detect evil then perhaps be changed to detect undead? They're same level spells and have pretty similar effects.


----------



## Dr Simon

Looks fine so far. If you want to use the variant (not Avenger as I posted above), that would give you:

[sblock=Growling Ape]
baboon nai-nek-chai druid

Feats: Medium Animal Form
Favoured Enemy (Choose one)
Fast Movement (40 ft. base speed)
Track Feat (Bonus)
Nature Sense
Wild Empathy
Animal Companion

Str: 12 (4 pt)
Dex: 14 (6 pt)
Con: 14 (6 pt)
Int: 10 (4 pt)
Wis: 16 (6 pt)
Cha: 10 (2pt)

Bodily able and wise but no very friendly demeanor  

AC 15 (+2 Dex, +3 Wis), touch 15, flat-footed 13

Skills:
Concentration: +6 (4 ranks, +2 Con)
Listen: +7 (4 ranks, +3 Wis)
Spot: +7 (4 ranks, +3 Wis)
Survival: +7 (4 ranks, +3 Wis)

Spells
4/Day Level 0: Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Light, Read Magic, Summon Nature's Ally I
3/Day Level 1: Goodberry, Shillelagh.

Equipment:
Club +1 melee
Sling +1 missile

Magic Scrolls
[/sblock][/QUOTE]


----------



## Shayuri

Looking at the group's content so far, it looks to me like a sorceror would probably be more useful in the long run. A rogue can be handy, but an arcane caster more consistently vital.

As for the animal species...I am considering one of: Eagle, raven and leopard (with the Medium Animal feat). Each has its own strengths and weaknesses.

I will try to have some crunch up asap.


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> Looks fine so far. If you want to use the variant (not Avenger as I posted above), that would give you:
> 
> [sblock=Growling Ape]
> baboon nai-nek-chai druid
> 
> Feats: Medium Animal Form
> Favoured Enemy (Choose one)
> Fast Movement (40 ft. base speed)
> Track Feat (Bonus)
> Nature Sense
> Wild Empathy
> Animal Companion
> 
> Str: 12 (4 pt)
> Dex: 14 (6 pt)
> Con: 14 (6 pt)
> Int: 10 (4 pt)
> Wis: 16 (6 pt)
> Cha: 10 (2pt)
> 
> Bodily able and wise but no very friendly demeanor
> 
> AC 15 (+2 Dex, +3 Wis), touch 15, flat-footed 13
> 
> Skills:
> Concentration: +6 (4 ranks, +2 Con)
> Listen: +7 (4 ranks, +3 Wis)
> Spot: +7 (4 ranks, +3 Wis)
> Survival: +7 (4 ranks, +3 Wis)
> 
> Spells
> 4/Day Level 0: Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Light, Read Magic, Summon Nature's Ally I
> 3/Day Level 1: Goodberry, Shillelagh.
> 
> Equipment:
> Club +1 melee
> Sling +1 missile
> 
> Magic Scrolls
> [/sblock]




I have edited my post. Still working on equipment.


----------



## Walking Dad

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Looking at the group's content so far, it looks to me like a sorceror would probably be more useful in the long run. A rogue can be handy, but an arcane caster more consistently vital.
> 
> As for the animal species...I am considering one of: Eagle, raven and leopard (with the Medium Animal feat). Each has its own strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> I will try to have some crunch up asap.




Anything, but no weasel    Do you know the cartoon?


----------



## hafrogman

Here's a draft of Dirt.  I went skimpy on equipment, as it just didn't make much sense for him to have more, or a supply of cash.
[sblock=Character]
	
	




		Code:
	

[B]Name:[/B] Dirt
[B]Class:[/B] Monk 1
[B]Race:[/B] Human (Nekuu)
[B]Size:[/B] Medium (5'5", 176 lb)
[B]Gender:[/B] Male

[B]Str:[/B] 16 +3 (10p.)     [B]Level:[/B] 1        [B]XP:[/B] 0 / 1,000
[B]Dex:[/B] 12 +1  (4p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +0         [B]HP:[/B] 24 (14+1d8+2)
[B]Con:[/B] 14 +2  (6p.)     [B]Grapple:[/B] +7     
[B]Int:[/B]  8 -1  (0p.)     [B]Speed:[/B] 30' (run: 150')      
[B]Wis:[/B] 14 +2  (6p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +1        
[B]Cha:[/B] 10 +0  (2p.)     

                      [B]Base  Armor  Shield  Dex  Size  Misc[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B] 13              10     +0     +0     +1   +0    +2 (wisdom)
[B]Touch:[/B] 13
[B]Flat:[/B]  12

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                      2    +2          +4
[B]Ref:[/B]                       2    +1          +3
[B]Will:[/B]                      2    +2          +4

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
Quarterstaff              +3      1d6+4        20
Dagger                    +3      1d4+3      19-20
Unarmed Strike            +3      1d6+3        20
 - Flurry               +1/+1

[B]Languages:[/B] Common


[B]Abilities:[/B]
AC Bonus
Unarmed Strike
Flurry of Blows


[B]Feats:[/B]
Run [Human]
Skill Focus: Sense Motive [1st]
Improved Unarmed Strike [Monk 1]
Improved Grapple [Monk 1]

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 16       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 4/2
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Climb                      4    +3          +7
Jump                       4    +3   (+4)   +7 (+11 to running jumps)
Profession: Farmer         4    +2          +6
Sense Motive               4    +2    +3    +9


[B]Equipment:               Cost  Weight[/B]
Quarterstaff               -Y    4lb
Dagger                   200Y    1lb

Fish Hook                 10Y    -lb
Flint and Steel          100Y    -lb
Pouch, Belt (2)          200Y    1lb
Rations, Trail (4 days)  200Y    4lb
Waterskin                100Y    4lb
Peasant's Outfit           -Y    -lb

[B]Total Weight:[/B] 14 / xx lb (light)        
[B]Money:[/B] -- yen

[/sblock]


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat said:
			
		

> So aberration, undead and ooze? Would detect evil then perhaps be changed to detect undead? They're same level spells and have pretty similar effects.




I reckon having 'Detect Foulness' wouldn't be too unbalancing. Using the same types as above. After all, most undead and aberrations in the game are Evil, so you wouldn't be increasing the utility of Detect Evil, merely changing the target.  Later on, if he reaches spellcasting levels, you could probably replace any effect that targeted 'Evil' with the same 'Foul' range.


----------



## Blackrat

Fine by me. You wouldn't happen to have PHB at hands right now? I was trying to find the starting wealth from SRD but it doesn't seem to be there. If you could tell me what's the wealth for 1st lvl paladin I won't need to wait untill tomorrow to start choosing eguipment.


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat said:
			
		

> Fine by me. You wouldn't happen to have PHB at hands right now? I was trying to find the starting wealth from SRD but it doesn't seem to be there. If you could tell me what's the wealth for 1st lvl paladin I won't need to wait untill tomorrow to start choosing eguipment.




240gp (from 4d6x10). 

(Or, in Conclave terms, 24,000 yen)


----------



## Blackrat

Wow. That's a small amount. Seems I need to start with a bit cheaper armor. Thanks, I'll get to organizing eguipment.


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat said:
			
		

> Wow. That's a small amount. Seems I need to start with a bit cheaper armor. Thanks, I'll get to organizing eguipment.




Well, I actually tracked that down from a Living Greyhawk site; since it was for 3.5 Ed. and it said 'maximum starting gold' I *think* it's correct, but it may turn out to be otherwise!


----------



## Blackrat

So. How much does one yen weight? Or probably easier how many yens weight 1 lb? since 50 coins weight 1 lb do we use that? But if it's Glass Yen, I guess it's made of glass? Something like marble? That would weight much less I think? Or am I getting to too detailed?

EDIT: Ah. And I noticed you said earlier there's banking. Would that mean paper money? Or at least letter's of credit that can be changed to money in banks. It's just that I'm lugging around 1000+ yens. They are possibly very heavy.


----------



## hafrogman

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> 240gp (from 4d6x10).
> 
> (Or, in Conclave terms, 24,000 yen)





			
				Dr Simon said:
			
		

> Well, I actually tracked that down from a Living Greyhawk site; since it was for 3.5 Ed. and it said 'maximum starting gold' I *think* it's correct, but it may turn out to be otherwise!



It's right, except I'm fairly sure it's 6d4x10, same maximum though.


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat said:
			
		

> So. How much does one yen weight? Or probably easier how many yens weight 1 lb? since 50 coins weight 1 lb do we use that? But if it's Glass Yen, I guess it's made of glass? Something like marble? That would weight much less I think? Or am I getting to too detailed?
> 
> EDIT: Ah. And I noticed you said earlier there's banking. Would that mean paper money? Or at least letter's of credit that can be changed to money in banks. It's just that I'm lugging around 1000+ yens. They are possibly very heavy.




There would be credit notes, mainly for millions of yen transactions between the Merchant Houses rather than day to day payment.

There are also different denomination yen coins, so you could just be carrying five 200s.

I would guesstimate that a single coin probably weighs half as much as a metal coin, so 100 of them to 1lb. But you can usually change currency to the most convenient size denomination, so it's probably not worth worrying about the encumbrance of cash unless it's a big treasure haul.

From the website:

Money
The most common form of money in the Empire of Splendour is the yen. This is a representative coinage made from glass. Trade secrets of the Guild of Glassblowers impart tiny embedded images in each coin, which are tear-shaped with a hole in the tapered end for fitting to a purse string. Denominations of coins are shown by the colour of the glass and the image within. 1 yen = green, 20 yen = red, 100 yen = blue, 200 yen = silver and 1000 yen = gold.

Different nations produce their own yen. The 'standard' is now the Merchants League yen, minted in Llaza. Imperial yen have devalued somewhat but are still common. Smaller nations like Oksa, Nirhamsa and Kronlordan also mint their own yen, but League coins have the strongest economy behind them.

One yen is roughly equivalent in buying power to one copper piece. Across the lands, different goods have different values, and different yen have different buying powers but the simplest method is to convert values as given below.

    * 1 copper piece = 1 yen
    * 1 silver piece = 10 yen
    * 1 gold piece = 100 yen
    * 1 platinum piece = 1000 yen


----------



## Blackrat

Thanks. That makes this easier.


----------



## The Rolling Man

My basic idea for my Salsham'ai is that he grew up in Little Thalsa in the port city of Llaza. He always like to go down to the dock area and speak to the travelers about distant lands. The docks were a more dangerous area than the beloved treetop of Little Thalsa but all the wonderful stories made it worth it. Eventually, wanderlust took over and he started to travel the lands. He visited, amongst other things, little colonies of his own people. In one such colony, near the town of Cormondal, the treefolk had trouble with local farmers who had started to excessively hunt game, gather fruit and mushroom and cut lumber in their forest. This was caused by a drought (or flood ... I'm not sure what kind of region this is) that destroyed most of the farmers' crop. Being familiar with human culture, he helped the local Vashti come up with a peaceful trade and cooperation agreement between the two groups. Impressed with his talents, the Vashti invited him to stay in Cormondal and help her with her good works. He did so for a while before wanderlust took him again and he left to explore other regions.

Also, could you give us a few more details on your shaman class ? I might go that way since we're gonna have another druid in the group. Or maybe I could play a variant bard with some druid powers as presented in the SRD (but you lose bardic knowledge and all the inspire _something_).

Edit: I just realized that my draft of a background works pretty well with Dirt's. Funny thing, I wasn't even trying to do that.


----------



## Dr Simon

The Rolling Man said:
			
		

> This was caused by a drought (or flood ... I'm not sure what kind of region this is) that destroyed most of the farmers' crop.




A flood works better, and meshes with some of the adventure background...



			
				The Rolling Man said:
			
		

> Also, could you give us a few more details on your shaman class ? I might go that way since we're gonna have another druid in the group. Or maybe I could play a variant bard with some druid powers as presented in the SRD (but you lose bardic knowledge and all the inspire _something_).




Conclave Shaman:  d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, Good Will Save, 4 skill pts per level, Skill list essentially merge of Druid and Ranger.

(Looking at the skill lists, it makes more sense to be the same as Druid, plus Knowledge (Spirits))

Spells per day as Druid, but uses spontaneous casting. For spells known you select Domain lists - each one represents the powers of a spirit that you are familiar with. You get 'Spirit' Domain (I'll need to list the spells seperately) plus three others of your choice. You get to select one of the associated Domain powers as well. As you gain levels you gain new Domains and Domain Powers, plus get the chance to swap them around. There's an ability to gain saving throw bonuses against spirit powers that kicks in at 4th or 5th level. 

Added Later:

Spirit Domain (free to Shamans, available to Clerics for a shamanic-flavoured cleric).
Domain Power - +2 Diplomacy checks with creatures with the Spirit descriptor. Free proficiency in Speak Spirit Speech.

1-Detect Spirits*
2-Protection From Spirits*
3-Magic Circle Against Spirits*
4-Dismissal
5-Commune (with Spirits)**
6-Forbiddance*
7-Ethereal Jaunt
8-Etherealness
9-Astral Projection

*These works as Det./Prot from Evil etc. except that they work specifically against creatures with the Spirit descriptor
**As Commune, but the caster is communing with powerful spirits rather than a deity. In Conclave, there's little difference.

Extra domain (spirit ally) at 4th, 8th, 12, 16, and 20th level. 
Extra domain power from domains known at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level.
May swap domains (but not if domain power is taken) at 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level.
Animal Companion at 3rd level.
Spirit Defence at 10th level - +2 bonus to all saving throws against the Ex, Su and Sp powers of spirit creatures. At 15th level this can extend to all allies within 30 ft. At 20th level the bonus increases to +4.

Note that Domains may also be selected from the additional domains and Domain wizard variant. In the latter case they count as divine magic.


----------



## A Passing Maniac

Apologies for the lack of updates from me; I rather suddenly realized yesterday that I had midterms this week, which has, I hope you understand, delayed my character creation! But here is a preliminary character sheet for my character, Ying; his background should hopefully be added soon.

Well... soonish, at any rate. Biological anthropology demands my attention currently. 

[sblock=Ying Taramaya]
	
	




		Code:
	

Name: Ying Taramaya (Raven in the Starry Heavens)
Class: Bard
Race: Human (Ashara)
Size: Medium
Gender: Male
Age: 19
Height: 6'1"
Weight: 150
Eyes: Dark brown
Hair: Black, very short
Skin: Coffee

Str: 10 (+0)
Dex: 14 (+2)
Con: 10 (+0)
Int: 14 (+2)
Wis: 10 (+0)
Cha: 16 (+3)

Level: 1        XP: 0
BAB: 0          HP: 17 (1d6+0+10+1)
Grapple: 0      Dmg Red: None
Speed: 20       Spell Res: None
Init: 2         
ACP: -1         


                   Base  Armor  Shld  Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total
Armor:              10     3      0    2                      15
Touch: 12              Flatfooted: 13

                         Base   Mod  Misc  Total
Fort:                      0     0           0
Ref:                       2     2           4
Will:                      2     0           2

Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical    Range
Longsword                 0       1d8       19-20/x2
Shortbow                  2       1d6       x3          60

Languages: 

Abilities:
Bardic Music 1/day (countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1), Bardic Knowledge

Feats:
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

Skills: Points: (6+3)x4=36
Max Ranks: 4/2         Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total
Bluff                    4     3           7
Decipher Script          4     2           6
Diplomacy                4     3           7
Hide                     4     2    -1     5
Knowledge (history)      2     2           4
Knowledge (nob. & roy.)  2     2           4
Knowledge (religion)     2     2           4
Listen                   4     0           4
Move Silently            4     2    -1     5
Perform (wind inst.)     4     3           7
Sense Motive             3     0           3

Equipment:         Cost (Y)   Weight
Longsword             1500        4
Shortbow              3000        2
Arrows, 40             200        6
Studded leather       2500       20
Backpack               200        2
Bedroll                 10        5
Hooded lantern         700        2
Oil, 3 flasks           30        3
Traveler's outfit       --        5
Vormonshan             500        3
Waterskin              100        4

Total Weight: 56 / 66 lb (medium)
Money: 7260 yen

[/sblock]


----------



## Dr Simon

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Here's a draft of Dirt.  I went skimpy on equipment, as it just didn't make much sense for him to have more, or a supply of cash.




Looks good to me. You have one more hit point, as you also get one per level.


----------



## Dr Simon

Note to all: I've put up a Rogue's Gallery thread here for completed character details.


----------



## Dr Simon

A Passing Maniac said:
			
		

> Apologies for the lack of updates from me; I rather suddenly realized yesterday that I had midterms this week, which has, I hope you understand, delayed my character creation! But here is a preliminary character sheet for my character, Ying; his background should hopefully be added soon.
> 
> Well... soonish, at any rate. Biological anthropology demands my attention currently.




No problem. Looks fine to me, don't forget his spells!


----------



## Walking Dad

I'm no big fan of animal companions. Can I use the swift hunter and the avenger variant?

Growling - Rage => Synergy


----------



## Redclaw

*Xielt, Tlaxu Ranger*



		Code:
	

[B]Name:[/B] Xielt
[B]Class:[/B] Ranger 1
[B]Race:[/B] Plains Tlaxu
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Alignment:[/B] Neutral Good
[B]Deity:[/B] 

[B]Str:[/B] 14 +2 (6p.)      [B]Level:[/B] 1        [B]XP:[/B] XXXX
[B]Dex:[/B] 15 +2 (8p.)      [B]BAB:[/B] +1         [B]HP:[/B] 24 (1d8+1+14+1)
[B]Con:[/B] 14 +2 (6p.)      [B]Grapple:[/B] +3     [B]Dmg Red:[/B] XX/XXXX
[B]Int:[/B] 10 +0 (2p.)      [B]Speed:[/B] 30'      [B]Spell Res:[/B] XX
[B]Wis:[/B] 14 +2 (6p.)      [B]Init:[/B] +3        [B]Spell Save:[/B] +X
[B]Cha:[/B] 8  -1 (0p.)      [B]ACP:[/B] -2         [B]Spell Fail:[/B] XX%

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +4    +X    +2    +X    +X    +X    16   (+1 dodge)
[B]Touch:[/B] 12              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 14  (Uncanny Dodge)

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                      2    +2          +4
[B]Ref:[/B]                       2    +2          +4       
[B]Will:[/B]                      0    +2          +2

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
Claw-Stick                +3     1d6+2      18-20-X2      (+1 damage vs unarmored)
Light-Claw                +3     1d4+2      18-20-X2      (+1 damage vs unarmored)
Shortbow                  +3     1d6        20x3

[B]Languages:[/B] Common, Tlaxan

[B]Abilities:[/B] Low-Light Vision, Favored Enemy () +2, Wild Empathy

[B]Feats:[/B] Dodge, Track (bonus)


[B]Skill Points:[/B] 56       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 8/4
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Knowledge (geography)      4    +0          +4
Knowledge (nature)         4    +0          +4
Listen                     4    +2    +2    +8
Search                     4    +0    +2    +6
Spot                       4    +2    +2    +8
Survival                   4    +2          +6   (+2 when tracking)


[B]Equipment:               Cost  Weight[/B]
Claw-Stick                4gp  0.5lb
Light-Claw                2gp  0.2lb
Shortbow                 30gp    2lb
20 Arrows                 1gp    3lb
Chain Shirt             100gp   25lb
Backpack                  2gp    2lb
Map case                  1gp  0.5lb
Fishhook (2)              2sp   ---
Flint and Steel           1gp   ---
Mirror, small steel      10gp  0.5lb
Parchment (2 sheets)      4sp   ---
Pouch, belt               1gp  0.5lb
Silk Rope (50')          10gp    5lb
Signal Whistle            5sp   ---
Torch (5)                 5cp    5lb
Waterskin                 1gp    4lb

[B]Total Weight:[/B]48.2lb      [B]Money:[/B] 75gp 8sp 5cp

                           [B]Lgt   Med   Hvy  Lift  Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]               58    116   175   XXX   XXX

[B]Age:[/B] 18
[B]Height:[/B] 5'11"
[B]Weight:[/B] 186lb
[B]Eyes:[/B] Green
[B]Hair:[/B] Tawny
[B]Skin:[/B] Brown


Question: What are some likely favored enemies for a plains Tlaxu?


----------



## Dr Simon

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> I'm no big fan of animal companions. Can I use the swift hunter and the avenger variant?
> 
> Growling - Rage => Synergy




They're not mutually incompatible, so yes.  Rage plus the baboon form is going to be brutal, though!


----------



## Dr Simon

Redclaw said:
			
		

> Question: What are some likely favored enemies for a plains Tlaxu?




Hmm... humans (although that clashes with Growling Ape), other tlaxu    and Animals are probably the most likely.


----------



## Blackrat

My character is up in the RG. Just need to write a background for him now.


----------



## Shayuri

Can an animal form attribute modifier reduce a score to zero or less? Seems silly, but say...there's several forms that reduce Str by 10. Does that mean my base Str must be more than 10?

And I suppose raven forms can't speak like raven familiars can. Hee...

Man, this choice is harder than I thought!

While I like the leopard form for giving the 1st level sorceror something it doesn't usually have...combat ability and stealth...it's hard to turn down flying forms...

I like the thematics of a raven, but I'm leaning towards eagle or hawk. A raven would be shifty and tricky...and that might step on our bard's toes. An eagle would be more direct magic and blasties, I think...yes...


----------



## Dr Simon

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Can an animal form attribute modifier reduce a score to zero or less? Seems silly, but say...there's several forms that reduce Str by 10. Does that mean my base Str must be more than 10?
> 
> And I suppose raven forms can't speak like raven familiars can. Hee...




Minimum score 1 sounds sensible. And no, they can't. Hmm, maybe a nai-nek-chai feat that allows you to talk in animal form? Might be a bit weak for a feat, though.


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> Minimum score 1 sounds sensible. And no, they can't. Hmm, maybe a nai-nek-chai feat that allows you to talk in animal form? Might be a bit weak for a feat, though.




I think this would be a good feat. I would take it as my next feat.

BTW: I could change my Favored Enemy to Favored Environment (woods) to avoid clashing with Redclaw's character.

Character is in the RG thread. Will add background later today or tomorrow.


----------



## Redclaw

I'll take favored enemy (human) if you don't mind, Walking Dad.  It seems to fit the Tlaxu mentality.  Otherwise I guess he could take favored terrain (plains), but I don't know how useful that would wind up being.


----------



## Dr Simon

Redclaw said:
			
		

> I'll take favored enemy (human) if you don't mind, Walking Dad.  It seems to fit the Tlaxu mentality.  Otherwise I guess he could take favored terrain (plains), but I don't know how useful that would wind up being.




Possibly not very, I'd go with the humans. If Walking Dad wants to go with Favoured Environment (forest) that will probably come up more than plains. Or you could both be human-hunters, of course.

Note to Redclaw - don't forget that the tlaxu can use their natural claws as weapons, and they also give you a +2 racial bonus to Climb checks.


----------



## Dr Simon

*Note on spellcasters*

Under old Imperial law, spellcasters are required to register with the local authorities whereever they go, or risk execution. This law is continued, to varying degrees, in the former Imperial lands of the River Kingdoms.

There is no mechanical benefit to registering or not, but it sets the style of your character and the kinds of things that will happen to them.

Registered spellcasters are known as _jiunsami_. They have a passport which must be stamped whenever they arrive in a new settlement (finding who does this can sometimes be a chore in itself). In return, jiunsami are required by law to assist (if called) in dealing with any magical threats that the local authorities may be experiencing (pretty much standard adventuring fare, really).

Unregistered spellcasters are known as _tabusami_. If caught using magic they risk anything from fines to imprisonment and execution. Playing a tabusami is all about evading the law as long as possible.

Note that this usually applies to arcane casters, druids and shamans. Clerics are often exempt, depending on the local authorities. Bards are more often than not considered spellcasters. Rangers and paladins are generally not considered spellcasters. 
The main criteria are:
1) Looking like a magician (pointy hat with Wizzard written on it)
2) Casting flashy spells in front of people
3) Casting harmful spells is the one that will bring on a death sentence


----------



## Blackrat

I'm trying to come up with background but can't make up much.

[sblock=Three Peach-Flowers In The Moonlight]A rich man had been blessed with a beautiful child. As perfect as "three peach flowers floating on a pond in the light of full moon" had the childs mother said. And everyone agreed. The word spread of this wonder and patrons of many merchant clans came to see their rival's beautiful child. Soon even the rulers of nearby cities had heard of the man and it brought him fame and with it even more wealth. The child grew and his beauty grew greater, but people soon forgot about him as people do.

One day a wise woman was travelling through the land and saw a child playing in a peach-garden. The beauty of the sight enamored the woman and she asked a nearby villager who was this child. She was told and though she soon resumed her journey she never forgot.

Years later a rich young man was practising his swordarm. Every slash perfected for elegance. Style was in his blood. Suddenly he was interrupted by clearing of throat. A messenger was standing behind him, and the man silently created a poem about his annoyance in his mind. But he took the letter with a smile and sent the messenger away. A day later he was already on his way, not knowing what to think about this mysterious letter.[/sblock]


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat said:
			
		

> I'm trying to come up with background but can't make up much.




That would probably do to be going on with. I don't know if the Rec.Games.FRP.Advocacy Usenet group is still going, but there used to be long discussions about the relative merits of 'Design at Start (DAS)' and 'Design in Play (DIP)' characters, i.e. do you have a detailed background worked out or do you start with a fairly blank character and see where he goes?  Either works for me.


----------



## Shayuri

Thanks for the info about spellcasting! That adds an interesting level of depth for my character.

When making sorcerors, I like to try to 'theme' the magic. For Nainekchai, I'm interested in their connection to the spirit world...perhaps making 'spirit magic' a theme. For an eagle, I can also see possibility in a "sun magic" theme, using light and radiance and fire spells...

Alternatively, air magic perhaps. And there's some room for mixing and matching, I suppose.

You do limit spell selection to SRD though, right? That would be important for me to consider when determining what themes would be appropriate.


----------



## Blackrat

Yeah I think I'll leave it at that for now. Both styles have merits and I'll go with more open background this time. So if you would check my sheet at RG for any possible mistakes. If it's okay I think I'm ready.


----------



## The Rolling Man

Thanks for the info on the shaman, I'll try to look at that and have my character done and posted by the end of the day.


----------



## Walking Dad

New idea/request: I thought Ape a bit of an martial artist. Can I swap out the Favoured x for Martial Arts feats?

1. Improved Unarmed Strike
5.?
10.?

It would be more for flavor than anything else.


----------



## The Rolling Man

Ok, a few extra questions about the shaman:

1. Do shamans have the same number of spell per day as a normal druid or do they have one more spell per day of each spell level they can cast like other spontanious divine spellcasters (as presented in UA) ?
2. The travel domain power includes gaining survival as a class skill (which druids already have). Could I get Knowledge (geography) instead ?
3. What about 0-lvl spells ? Domains don't list any.
4. I'm guessing 'spirits' creatures are pretty numerous in your setting ?


----------



## Dr Simon

*Blackrat*: All seems in order to me. Languages: Low Imperial (Common), High Imperial.

*Shayuri*: Yes, SRD only (mainly for ease of reference). Although I'm not averse to changing the spells a bit to team with a theme. Changing energy type, for example, of simply the non-mechanical FX.
Another possibility, that I've been toying with, is to allow access to clerical domains as a bonus spell list, via a feat. The spells alone are probably too weak for a feat, but with domain power maybe too strong (War would give a free feat plus extra, for example), so some other extra (minor). For Fire or Sun, for example, perhaps the ability to cast _light_ at will.
A further idea that needs development is that of geomantic magic, perhaps with feats tied to the five geomantic creatures of Conclave. However, geomantic magic (The Path of Water and Mountains) is more a wizard thing, relying as it does on precise ritual and preparation. That said, the principles of Golden Crow (centre, sun, rulership) and Ruby Horse (west, hills, fire, artistic inspiration) may have thematic ties to your character (my avatar, BTW, is Bronze Porpoise)

*Walking Dad*: I'll allow it (maybe Improved Grapple at 5th?), but see how it goes. It has slightly more utility than Favoured Enemy in that it can be used for any encounter but if it doesn't prove to unbalancing then it should be fine.

*Rolling Man*: Thinking about it, it ought to be Spells Per Day as per the Sorcerer list (with Wisdom as the casting stat for bonus spells, save DC etc.) i.e. 5/3 plus bonus spells. No problem with the change in skills. 0th level spells as per Druid. 'Spirit' is a subtype that applies to many undead, outsiders, aberrations, magical beasts, dragons etc. so yes, they are quite common!


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> *Blackrat*: All seems in order to me. Languages: Low Imperial (Common), High Imperial.
> 
> *Shayuri*: Yes, SRD only (mainly for ease of reference). Although I'm not averse to changing the spells a bit to team with a theme. Changing energy type, for example, of simply the non-mechanical FX.
> Another possibility, that I've been toying with, is to allow access to clerical domains as a bonus spell list, via a feat. The spells alone are probably too weak for a feat, but with domain power maybe too strong (War would give a free feat plus extra, for example), so some other extra (minor). For Fire or Sun, for example, perhaps the ability to cast _light_ at will.
> A further idea that needs development is that of geomantic magic, perhaps with feats tied to the five geomantic creatures of Conclave. However, geomantic magic (The Path of Water and Mountains) is more a wizard thing, relying as it does on precise ritual and preparation. That said, the principles of Golden Crow (centre, sun, rulership) and Ruby Horse (west, hills, fire, artistic inspiration) may have thematic ties to your character (my avatar, BTW, is Bronze Porpoise)
> 
> *Walking Dad*: I'll allow it (maybe Improved Grapple at 5th?), but see how it goes. It has slightly more utility than Favoured Enemy in that it can be used for any encounter but if it doesn't prove to unbalancing then it should be fine.
> 
> *Rolling Man*: Thinking about it, it ought to be Spells Per Day as per the Sorcerer list (with Wisdom as the casting stat for bonus spells, save DC etc.) i.e. 5/3 plus bonus spells. No problem with the change in skills. 0th level spells as per Druid. 'Spirit' is a subtype that applies to many undead, outsiders, aberrations, magical beasts, dragons etc. so yes, they are quite common!




@Domain spell feats: Cool idea. Would it for example be possible to "learn" the spirt domain after learning from a shaman?

@Martial Arts Feats: Thanks    Imp. Grapple at level 5 sounds good.

@Spells per day: Would this affect Ape, too? I would like to use it.

BTW: Is there a "druidic" language in the setting?


----------



## Dr Simon

My sense is that it would be possible to pick up new spell domains as one learns them from various minor spirit cults. I'm _almost_ tempted to allow non-spellcasting classes access to them as well, on a 1/day basis, since minor magic is more common in Conclave.

Shaman and Spontaneous Druid are different classes. For Spontaneous Druid, use the standard Spontaneous Divine rules, i.e usual spells per day plus one (4/2 base).

No Druidic language. I was thinking of replacing it with Spiritspeak as an option (since a Conclave 'druid' would be more akin to someone who reveres the nature spirits anyway).


----------



## Shayuri

If domain access granted all the spells in the domain as new "known" spells for sorcerors, that'd be huge, even without the domain granted powers. It might even be too much, given that the standard "extra spell" feat only grants one new spell, of up to 1 level less than your max!

Which always seemed stingy to me, admittedly. Still.

Is that what you're considering allowing for sorcerors?


----------



## Dr Simon

I don't know. It's kind of a weird progression, since depending at what level you take it depends on how much immediate use you get from it. At 1st level you would only get access to one more spell, but there'd be another already waiting for you when you got to 3rd, and so on. I can't think of other feats that behave as a kind of ability pension scheme, which is why I'm not sure if it's a good idea.  At higher levels you'd get a larger immediate hit, but then higher level characters have more resources in the form of scrolls, wand etc. so it probably would have an overall small impact.


----------



## Shayuri

I will be frank and say that my feel for the idea depends on what domains are allowed.

In terms of spell selection, not all domains are equal. This is -especially- true for allowing domain access to arcane casters. Consider, for example, the Healing domain. A sorceror casting from that could out-heal any cleric (spontaneous clerics may change that dynamic). That may not be a bad thing, but it changes certain assumptions in the system. And if the feat can be taken more than once, granting access to a different domain each time, it could get pretty crazy.

On the other hand, speaking from experience, it's pretty hard for a sorceror to be a "main arcane caster," just because they don't have enough spell knowledge to cover the three bases adequately (those being Utility, Blasts and Buffs). They can do any one of those exquisitely, two of three adequately, but all three means they're stretched really thin. Domain access could really help with that.

If you do allow it, I think we'd have to devote some time to making sure the domain choice was appropriate though. Just letting the PC (even me) cherry-pick domains is a sure way to wind up with *MOLTAN, DEVOURER OF CAMPAIGNS!*


----------



## Walking Dad

Maybe you should allow:
- non-spellcasting classes access to them, on a 1/day basis
- arcane casters to wizard domains, or divine on a 1/day basis
- divine casters to divine domains, or wizard on a 1/day basis


----------



## Shayuri

I was thinking of the domains being granted by 'spirit patrons,' who only offer limited portfolios...kind of like gods, but for arcanists (possibly available to nonspellcasters, but I'd be REAL careful there, for all the reasons I listed in my last post x10).

Through pacts or ancestry, you have a connection to a powerful spirit that grants increased arcane power.

Nai-Nek-Chai could have domains associated with their animal type. Other sorcerors might have more RP involved, though I hate to use that as a balancing factor. I'd expect spirit patrons to have the same oversight of their granted spells as deities have over clerical magic as well.


----------



## Dr Simon

Yeah, I think a seperate set of feats, rather than just importing the clerical domains whole cloth, would work more tidily. The idea behind the shaman is that they use the domains as a basis for spontaneous casting and it would kind of take away the speciality of that class to open out the idea. Plus, as you say, it could get messy pretty quickly.

I think for the time being, if you want a 'themed' sorcerer, you may just have to go with the spell choice (and as I said earlier, I'm open to some spell customisation).


----------



## Walking Dad

Perhaps one domain instead of the familiar?


----------



## The Rolling Man

Here's my (almost) completed character. I assumed that shaman had the same HD, starting money and weapon/armor proficiency (and restriction ???) as a druid. Lastly, what spells are on my spell list for the purpose of wands and scroll ? I assume it's only the spells in the domains I possess.

Feel free to comment, correct, analyse, etc ...



		Code:
	

[B]Name: [/B] Jar'Thol "The wanderer"
[B]Class:[/B] Shaman 1 
[B]Race:[/B] Salsham'ai (Treefolk)
[B]Size:[/B] Small
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Quote:[/B] [COLOR=Green]"You should come up here, the view is simply stunning!"[/COLOR]

[B]Str:[/B] 10 +0 ( 4p.)	[B]Level:[/B] 1	[B]XP[/B]: 0
[B]Dex:[/B] 16 +3 ( 6p.)	[B]BAB:[/B] +0		[B]HP:[/B] 17 (11+6)
[B]Con:[/B] 10 +0 ( 2p.)	[B]Grapple:[/B] -4
[B]Int:[/B] 14 +2 ( 6p.)	[B]Speed:[/B] 20'
[B]Wis:[/B] 16 +3 ( 6p.)	[B]Init:[/B] +7
[B]Cha:[/B] 12 +1 ( 4p.)	[B]ACP:[/B] 0

[B]	Base	Armor	Shld	Dex	Size	Nat	Misc	Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]	10	+2	+0	+3	+1	+0	+0	16
[B]Touch:[/B]	14	[B]Flatfooted:[/B] 14

[B]	Total	Base	Mod	Misc[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]	+0	+0	+0
[B]Ref:[/B]	+3	+0	+3
[B]Will:[/B]	+5	+2	+3

[B]Weapon		Attack	Damage	Critical	Range[/B]
Club		+1	1d4	x2		------
Sling		+4	1d3	x2		50 ft

[B]Languages:[/B] Themnassic, Shromic, Low Imperial, High Imperial

[B]Abilities:[/B] 
Arboreal : +8 racial bonus to climb, can always take 10 on climbing checks,
climb is a class skill
Camouflage : +4 racial bonus to hide in woodland, +2 in surroundings with 
woodland tones
Prehensile feet
+2 racial bonus to Craft, Diplomacy and Knowledge (nature) checks
Travel domain power: For 1 round per day, Jar'Thol can act freely as if under
the effect of a [I]freedom of movement[/I] spell

[B]Feats:[/B] Improved initiative

[B]Domains:[/B] Spirits, Healing, Plant, Travel

[B]Spells[/B] (Save DC 14 + spell level; 5/4):
0 - Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Flare, 
    Guidance, Know Direction, Light, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic, 
    Resistance, Virtue;
1st - Cure Light Wounds, Detect Spirits, Entangle, Longstrider


[B]Skill Points:[/B] 24	[B]Max Ranks:[/B] 4/2
[B]Skills			Total	Ranks	Mod 	Misc[/B]
Climb			+10	2	+0	+8
Concentration		+4	4	+0	0
Diplomacy		+5	2	+1	+2
Hide			+7(+11)	0	+3	+4 (+8 in woodlands)
Listen			+5	2	+3	0
Knw (spirits)		+6	4	+2	0
Knw (geography)		+4	2	+2	0
Knw (nature)		+8	4	+2	+2
Spot			+5	2	+3	0
Survival		+5	2	+3	0

[B]Equipment (all small sized):		Cost	Weight[/B]
Club					--	1.5 lb
Leather armor				1000y	7.5 lb
Sling					--	--
20 sling bullets			20y	5 lb
Traveller's Outfit			--	--
Backpack				200y	0.5 lb
Belt pouch				100y	0.125 lb
Bedroll					10y	1.25 lb
Trail rations (x4)			200y	1 lb
Waterskin				100y	1 lb
Sunrod (x3)				600y	3 lb
Tindertwig (x5)				500y	--
Acid flask (x3)				3000y	3 lb

[B]Total Weight:[/B] 23.9 lb	[B]Money:[/B] 2270 yens

[B]		Lgt	Med	Hvy	Lift	Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]	25	25-50	50-75	150	375

[SBLOCK=Appearance]*Age:* 19
*Height:* 2'9" 
*Weight:* 47 lb
*Eyes:* Dark green
*Hair:* Black
*Skin:* Light Brown
Jar'thol is a slim Salsham'ai who wears simple brown leathers and a hooded cloak. A few swirling green patterns decorate his clothing and make him harder to spot in woodland areas. Like most of his people, Jar'thol wears his hair long and partly braided. He also almost never wear boots or shoes.[/SBLOCK]
[SBLOCK=Background]Jar'thol grew up in Little Thalsa in the port city of Llaza. As a youngster, he always liked to go down to the dock area and to speak to the travelers about distant lands. The docks were a more dangerous area than the beloved treetop of Little Thalsa but all the wonderful stories made it worth it. Eventually, wanderlust took over and he started to travel the lands. 

Like most of his people, his elders had taugh him the way of the spirits and how they influence the great and small events of everyone's lives. However, he never felt their presence as strongly as after he started his travels. Jar'thol always felt a conforting presence watching over him while he was on the road. One day, while visiting a small group of salsham'ai in a deep forest, he was invited to meet the matriach of the community. In a surprising turn of event, she told him that she felt a strong connection between him, the spirits and the _Pas Aat_. She would teach him about them if he stayed with this community for a while. Curiousity and a bit of mystic compulsion made him accept her offer. She was an old withered crone but her knowledge was vast. She told him much about nature, plants and the spirits of the woods. She also showed him how to call upon the spirit to help manipulate the _Pas Aat_. Eventually, she told him that he had learned all he could and that he should leave her to her rest. He never saw again the old wise woman but afterward, the spirits were always with him, protecting him and allowing him to help those in trouble. 

A few years later, Jar'thol was visiting yet another little colony of his own people, near the town of Cormondal. The treefolk had trouble with local farmers who had started to excessively hunt game, gather fruit and mushroom and cut lumber in their forest. This was caused by a flood that had destroyed most of the farmers' crop. Being familiar with human culture, he met the local Vashti and together they were able to come up with a peaceful trade and cooperation agreement between the two groups. Impressed with his talents, the Vashti invited him to stay in Cormondal and help her with her good works. He did so for a while before wanderlust took him again and he left to explore other regions. A few months later, a messenger carrying a letter found him as he was staying in a human inn. The content of the letter sadden him a bit but the curious Jar'thol once again took his pack and headed toward Cormondal.[/SBLOCK]


----------



## Dr Simon

The Rolling Man said:
			
		

> Here's my (almost) completed character. I assumed that shaman had the same HD, starting money and weapon/armor proficiency (and restriction ???) as a druid. Lastly, what spells are on my spell list for the purpose of wands and scroll ? I assume it's only the spells in the domains I possess.
> 
> Feel free to comment, correct, analyse, etc ...




All seems in order to me. Shaman HD is d6. Starting money may as well same as druid. Simple Weapon Prof, Light Armour Prof, and yes, only spells from the domains count as on 'spell list' (more 'spells known', really).

For flavour, each of your domains except Spirit come from a spirit ally, maybe an ancestor or maybe a nature spirit. You can, if you like, invent names and even a bit of personality for them. When a shaman cast a spell, he's usually callling on his spirit allies to act for him (hence no spell failure chance from armour either).


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## Walking Dad

I got a better feeling for the type of character Ape should be. Seeing no good role-playing opportunities in the avenger variant (for Ape), but not liking animal companions I ask for other alternatives (perhaps a "loner" flaw?).


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## Dr Simon

So do you mean you want to swap back from Druid Avenger variant to standard druid (with 'swift hunter')?  No problem with that. Let me check on a suitable replacement for animal companion.


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## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> So do you mean you want to swap back from Druid Avenger variant to standard druid (with 'swift hunter')?  No problem with that. Let me check on a suitable replacement for animal companion.




There is a good one in Complete Champion. It is for rangers, but easy adaptable.
[sblock=Spiritual Guide]
Orginal:
You are befriended by a spiritual guide that speaks to you and aids you as long as you remain in the wilderness.
Level: 4th.
Replaces: This benefit replaces the animal companion class feature.
Benefit: You gain a spiritual guide. As long as you remain in natural surroundings (including underground caverns), this guide is a constant companion. Once you enter any civilized area larger than a hamlet, however, your spiritual guide leaves your side, returning only when you return to the wilds.
Although it cannot protect you from harm, your spiritual guide can warn you of impending danger. As long as your spiritual guide is with you, you gain a divine bonus equal to one-quarter your ranger level (rounded down) on Handle
Animal, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Search, Spot, and Survival checks. In addition, you can use commune with nature, as the spell, once per day (caster level equals your ranger level). You can also prepare and cast this spell normally from your ranger spell list.

This would be my conversion:
You are befriended by a spiritual guide that speaks to you and aids you as long as you remain in the wilderness.
Level: 1st.
Replaces: This benefit replaces the animal companion class feature.
Benefit: You gain a spiritual guide. As long as you remain in natural surroundings (including underground caverns), this guide is a constant companion. Once you enter any civilized area larger than a hamlet, however, your spiritual guide leaves your side, returning only when you return to the wilds.
Although it cannot protect you from harm, your spiritual guide can warn you of impending danger. As long as your spiritual guide is with you, you gain a divine bonus equal to one-quarter your druid level (rounded down) +1 on Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Search, Spot, and Survival checks. In addition, you can use commune with nature, as the spell, once per day (caster level equals your druid level).[/sblock]


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## The Rolling Man

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> All seems in order to me. Shaman HD is d6. Starting money may as well same as druid. Simple Weapon Prof, Light Armour Prof, and yes, only spells from the domains count as on 'spell list' (more 'spells known', really).
> 
> For flavour, each of your domains except Spirit come from a spirit ally, maybe an ancestor or maybe a nature spirit. You can, if you like, invent names and even a bit of personality for them. When a shaman cast a spell, he's usually callling on his spirit allies to act for him (hence no spell failure chance from armour either).



I've posted my character in the RG with the corrected hp. I'll see if I can think of interesting stuff for my personal spirits in the coming days. I'm not feeling very inspired at the moment   . Also, I'm still undersided to whatever Jar'Thol will be a registered spellcaster or not. Are the tabusami hunted down a lot ? I guess my shaman should probably be registered since he likes to help people out of the blue (and he's pretty much useless without his magic).


----------



## Shayuri

Heya! Updated character sheet.

Her name is Annika, and I'm thinking of going with a lot of fire magic for a possible "phoenix" motif. What do you think?

Gear will be finished tonight...can I start with a familiar if I spend 100gp on one?

...of course, what familiar would I get? Huh. Kind of weird to have a bird, since she -is- a bird. But what else could keep up? HMM. I'll think about it.

She's definitely unregistered, and bristles at the idea of it.


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## Dr Simon

The Rolling Man said:
			
		

> Also, I'm still undersided to whatever Jar'Thol will be a registered spellcaster or not. Are the tabusami hunted down a lot ? I guess my shaman should probably be registered since he likes to help people out of the blue (and he's pretty much useless without his magic).




I wouldn't say that they are actively hunted. It's more a case that if you are caught casting spells, and then it turns out that you are unregistered, the you're in trouble. Usually, minor and relatively harmless things like healing and divinations probably wouldn't garner much of a punishment, perhaps a fine or a warning (persistent offence makes it worse though, even if you are doing good). It's blasting stuff with fireballs or enchanting people that gets you into trouble.

It's also dependent on how rigourously the local law is upheld, and how lenient or stiff-necked the local law enforcers are.


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## Dr Simon

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Heya! Updated character sheet.
> 
> Her name is Annika, and I'm thinking of going with a lot of fire magic for a possible "phoenix" motif. What do you think?
> 
> Gear will be finished tonight...can I start with a familiar if I spend 100gp on one?
> 
> ...of course, what familiar would I get? Huh. Kind of weird to have a bird, since she -is- a bird. But what else could keep up? HMM. I'll think about it.
> 
> She's definitely unregistered, and bristles at the idea of it.




Phoenix motif sounds good, although it would possibly be Golden Crow in Conclave (kind of the same difference, really). 
Yes you can start with a familiar. It be even *more* wierd if a bird familiar was also her mate when in bird form, but perhaps that goes places best left untouched.... How about using the raven stats but for either a (golden) crow or some form of songbird, for a slightly more exotic feel?  Or she carries a terrestrial familair in her claws whenever she flies


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## Dr Simon

Folks, I'm going to be away for a few days. I think we're pretty much ready to go, just a few last adjustments to characters. Walking Dad, I'm not sure about that ability but I'll allow it for now. Otherwise we're (finally!) good to go next week.


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## Walking Dad

Fine, I will update Ape


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## A Passing Maniac

I know I've been pretty quiet here for a while, but it's been a very hectic week for me. I hope that over the next few days I'll finally be able to finish up Ying, background included, in time for next week's beginning.

Really looking forward to the game.


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## The Rolling Man

Here's a basic description of Jar'Thol's spirits guides. The pictures aren't really actual representation of the spirits but are rather there to set the "mood" of each one (a picture is worth a thousand word they say   ). Also, they might need Shromic names but I don't really know what Shromic should sound like.

The Playful Crane  (Travel domain)
This is a young and playful nature spirit that has taken an interest in Jar'Thol traveling ways. As a crane spirit, it is beautiful and graceful. It is also quick and likes flying high and swift.

The Wise Crone  (Healing domain)
This is the spirit of an ancient ancestor of Jar'Thol's mentor. She was an herbalist and a healer of great talent. She is wise, nurturing and benevolant. She appears as an extremely old salsham'ai woman (i.e. older then the art shows).

The Blossoming Mother (Plant domain)
An old and primal plant spirit of the braashak. She represents the expanding and renewing power of the forest. She's usually calm and uncaring but if angered, her wrath can be terrible.


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## Dr Simon

The Rolling Man said:
			
		

> The Wise Crone  (Healing domain)
> This is the spirit of an ancient ancestor of Jar'Thol's mentor. She was an herbalist and a healer of great talent. She is wise, nurturing and benevolant. She appears as an extremely old salsham'ai woman (i.e. older then the art shows).




The thing with Shromic is that is can't really be written down, and I'm not sure that the same sound means the same thing each time, or that the same meaning is given the same sound. So I would guess that they *have* names in Shromic but you'd just have to refer to them in terms such as 'I say the name of Wise Crone in Shromic' or something vague like that!

Attached is a sketch I did ages ago of a wise old salsham'ai woman. It's a little chimpy in the ears for a salsham'ai proper, but might serve as another concept for Wise Crone?


----------



## Dr Simon

*On magic items*

Some notes on magic items and feats.

Conclave is meant to be a world where small-scale magic is commonplace, but more powerful stuff is rare. Thus 0th-2nd level spells and effects that replicate them are not too unusual, anything above 5th or so is touching in the realms of the heroic.

I have borrowed a couple of Item Creation feats from Arcana Evolved which may be of interest. They are mechanically no different to existing feats, but add a little extra flavour. Level requirements remain the same.

*Scribe Scroll* becomes *Craft Spell-Completion Item*. The end product is the same - an item that gives a single use of a spell, that can be used by anyone with that spell on his spell list. It may be a scroll - sutras and ofudas are fairly common, it may be a talisman or lucky charm. The exact form is up to you, depending on the character of your spellcaster.

*Brew Potion* becomes *Craft Single Use Item*. This is a single use magical item, usable by anybody. It may be a potion or oil, it may be a specially grown fruit, it may be a scroll, it may be a pebble inscribed with magical symbols. Most spells can be turned into single use items. Ranged attack spells are usually turned into 'detonations' that require a ranged touch attack to work. Some special cases may need review on an individual basis.

The *Bonded Item* feat may be taken by any character of 3rd level or above, provided that they have used the item in question through several dangerous situations (and it has made a difference). A bonded item gives a +1 enhancement bonus to its 'normal use'. Most common would be a weapon, gaining this bonus to attack. A suit of armour may also benefit but other items such as thieves tools, rope, artists brushes and so forth are all candidates. Once bonded, the wielder can also spend XP to add further enhancements to the bonded item. Thus a bonded sword can gain further bonuses or special abilities. Obviously this is easier to adjudicate for weapons and armour but imagination can be applied to other equipment.

This means that, for example, swords become legendary because of who wields them, not who made them. 

Losing a bonded item may or may not be a real pain. They should be fixable, with maybe a monetary cost for the ceremonial materials. Still on the subject of swords, that gives you a quest to retrieve the Green Destiny sword, or to reforge the Sword That Was Broken etc.


----------



## Dr Simon

Further notes to the 'expanded' hit points. All hit points gained from the character class Hit Dice are considered 'Grace'. The rest (Constitution-based) are 'Health'. It all works more or less like one big pool. Grace is depleted first. Also include the following combat action (from Book of Experimental Might)

*Taking a Breather*
_Breather moments give a PC a chance to gather himself—to mentally regroup,
collect his thoughts, catch his breath, and take stock of the situation. Characters
who use a standard action to take a breather can do one of the following:
• Heal up to their level in (Grace point) damage
• Gain a bonus to damage equal to +1 plus an additional +1 per four levels
on the following round
• Gain a bonus to one attack roll equal to +1 plus an additional +1 per four
levels on the following round
• Gain a +1 bonus to one spell save DC for a spell cast on the following round
• Gain a chance to make another saving throw to shake off an unwanted
condition with a duration measured in rounds (as opposed to minutes,
hours, days, etc. or one with a duration of Instantaneous or Permanent)

Because taking a breather is an action, conditions that prohibit actions—
such as being stunned or held—prevent a character from taking a breather.

A character can take a breather only once per encounter. A character cannot
take one outside of an encounter involving a round-by-round initiative count._

Er, I think that's the end of the houserules. Oh yes, standing from prone does *not* provoke an AoO.


----------



## Dr Simon

So I originally said that I'd do the rolls, but would you prefer to use Invisible Castle?  It gives an extra element of faff by having to add in the links, but I've always felt that the more dice that you get to roll as a player, even virtually, the better. I reserve the right for the usual secret DM checks for Search etc.


----------



## Shayuri

Honestly, I kind of like it when the GM rolls.

I find Invis Castle to be kind of a pain...it adds a lot of time to posting for me. Plus, I have trust issues with it. 

Looks like things are getting rolling now. I've settled on a familiar...a tiny viper. I'll update character sheet asap.


----------



## Blackrat

Agree with Shayuri. As a player I too like it when DM does the rolling. It's more fun on the real table to roll for yourself but PBP is better this way.


----------



## Walking Dad

I'm with Shayuri, too. Rolled 1,2,1,3 once. Sometimes IC hates me


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## The Rolling Man

I, for one   , don't mind rolling on invisible castle but I don't really have any preferences to doing it either way.


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## Dr Simon

Okay, I reckon we'll keep it that I do the dice rolls.


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## Dr Simon

First post is up!


----------



## Blackrat

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> We also haven't heard from Hafrogman for a while - for the moment I'm going to assume that Dirt is around, but hanging back (probably keeping a wary eye on the wolves) and not getting involved in things.



I'll ask froggy what's up . Hope he comes back.


----------



## Dr Simon

Yeah, me too.

You might need another melee-based character soon...


----------



## Blackrat

He's around. Been so busy he had forgotten to check the game. He promised to check in soon.


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## Dr Simon

Oh good. I'll assume that Dirt is hanging about at the back. Luckily he was playing him as a man of few words, so any reticence works entirely in character!


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## Dr Simon

Folks,

I'll be away from 3rd to 10th May on holiday, so I probably won't be picking up responses until I'm back (likely the 12th will be the first day I'll be back online).

Feel free to send in actions before then for the first round of comabt with the Thing in the Water, otherwise I shall see you (in a virtual sense) when I get back.


----------



## Dr Simon

*Spell Slots*

As all the casters are spontaneous, I'm thinking of including a ruling from Arcana Evolved.

You can 'weave together' three spell slots of a given level to create one of a higher level. Thus you can give up 3 0th level slots to cast another 1st level spell.

Conversely, you can 'unweave' a higher level spell slot to give two slots of the next level down. Thus you can give up one 2nd level slot to create two 1st level slots.

Weaving *up* can be done indefinitely. You can weave three 0th level spell slots, add that new 1st level spell slots to 2 existing 1st level spell slots, weave _those_ three to give a new 2nd level, and so forth.

Weaving *down* can only be done for one level. The spell energy 'released' is weaker and less stable. Spell slots created by unweaving a higher level spell cannot be unwoven further.

0th level spells cannot be unwoven. 9th level spells cannot be woven. (Neither has anywhere to go!).

This gives greater flexibility to casters and makes them more useful for longer. It also adds a very fun element of resource management where a caster can 'throw his last bit on magical power' into one hopefully crucial spell, rather than being stuck with a bunch of 0th level _resistance_ spells.


----------



## Dr Simon

*Death and Dying*

'Nother houserule.

Again, adopted from Arcana Evolved/Book of Experimental Might.

If you have a Con score that gives you a bonus, your 'disabled' range spans 0 and minus that bonus. Your 'dying' range then goes to minus your Con.

So, if you have Con 14 (+2 bonus), you are disabled from 0 to -2 hit points, and dying from -3 to -14 hit points. If you have a Con 9 (-1), you are disabled as normal on 0 hit points and dying from -1 to -9 hit points.


----------



## Walking Dad

I don't really like this "take a breather mechanic":

If Ape would do a two round sparring with him, Xielt would be allowed to take a breather?

Can he use the breather in his surprise round?

Can you take a breather the enemy falls down, but is not dead , yet?

Perhaps it should be more like the "every 5 minutes" rule of 4e.


----------



## Dr Simon

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> I don't really like this "take a breather mechanic":




Well, it's an option. We can ditch it if it doesn't work.



			
				Walking Dad said:
			
		

> If Ape would do a two round sparring with him, Xielt would be allowed to take a breather?




No, because you can only do so once per encounter. Sparring with your friend is not an encounter.



			
				Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Can he use the breather in his surprise round?



If he's not surprised, then yes (as it's a standard action you can only do so when you could normally perform a standard action). Think of it as gearing yourself up for the confrontation. Remember that 'taking a breather' can give you othr effects as well, but you only get one go at it per encounter.



			
				Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Can you take a breather the enemy falls down, but is not dead , yet?




Hmm... trickier one. I would say that if you had reduced the last opponent to a a state where they were no longer a threat (dying, paralysed or whatever) then the encounter would effectively be over since there is no credible threat to you. Hence, no. On the other hand, if other opponents exist but are not immediately threatening you (but are fighting your friends), then the encounter is still ongoing and thus you *could* take a breather.

To give a game specific example, during the interval between the water spirit running away and where it returns to attack Xielt, this would not count as part of an encounter as you weren't in game rounds. 



			
				Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Perhaps it should be more like the "every 5 minutes" rule of 4e.




I think this aspect is probably mirrored by the 1 point of grace per minute of rest mechanic.

Like I say, the 'breather' mechanic may require too much ad hoc adjudication to be worthwhile (as it's only worth 1 hit point at the moment any way).


----------



## Dr Simon

Some feats (ported and adapted from Oriental Adventures and Arcana Evolved) that might be of interest to some of you:

*Focused Attack*
Req: Weapon Focus, ranks in Concentration
Effects: As a move action, make a Concentration check. Depending on the result, the next attack you deal with a weapon of choice will cause extra damage:

Concentration check  Damage
10-19                       +1d6
20-29                       +2d6
30-39                       +3d6
40-49                       +4d6
50-59                       +5d6
etc.

You can't Take 10 on this check, and the attack must be made immediately after the Concentration check.

Special: If you have Quick Draw you can draw and focus (but not also move) at the same time. This also stacks with Sneak Attack damage if applicable (a focused strike against a flat-footed foe). This is an adaption of the Iaijutsu rules.

*Lion's Roar*
Req: Cha 13+, BAB +1 or better
Once per day, as a standard action you can unleash a terrifying battle cry. All opponents who are within 30 ft., able to hear you and have lower HD/ than you must make a Will save (DC 10 +1/2 your character level + your Charisma modifer) or be shaken for 1d6 rounds. (Adaptation of Ki Shout)

*Fire Mage*
Req: Spontaneous spellcaster
You add the following spells to your known spell list. Essentially you get one bonus known spell per level. This doesn't affect spells per day.

1. Fiery Eyes* - your eyes glow, illuminating area. May ignite objects with focussed gaze.
2. Animate Fire* - turn Small or smaller fire into animated object.
3. Fire Wings* - arms become flaming wings. May fly and burn things.
4. Wall of Fire
5. Fire Breath* - breath fire 1/round. 1d8 per 2 levels to 1 target in 15ft.
6. Fires of Purity* - subject bathed in aura of fire, becoming dangerous weapon.
7. Firestorm
8. Incendiary Cloud
9. Internal Fire* - target burns from inside out.
*These are all from Oriental Adventures, and may need a little bit of re-jigging to make them 3.5 compatible.

Note: Yes, this is more potent than the existing feat that allows spontaneous casters *one* extra spell, but I don't think it's too unbalancing as its benefits play out over a long period. I doubt we'll be seeing 18th level in a PBP game, unless we fast-forward over a few levels.
This, obviously, is aimed at Annika, but either Ape or Jar'Thol could take it (as spontaneous casters), or similarly themed lists could be made for other focuses.


----------



## Shayuri

Hoo!

Hee.

Looks cool.


----------



## Dr Simon

The Oriental Adventures spells are quite funky, and I'll probably work a few more into the game. Most of those fire spells are marginally weaker, I think, than the equivalent "western" versions found in, say, the clerical Fire Domain (I think Fire Breath requires a touch attack roll, for example), which balances out the extra numbers.

Something that I normally do as DM is to allow an adjustment of characters after the first adventure, in case skill and feat choices, for example, didn't work out as hoped, to allow a settling-in period. Although, it should be borne in mind that I'm hoping for a variety of different situations and encounters, not all is going to be dungeon-crawling.


----------



## Shayuri

If you have access to Complete Arcane, you might check out the Wu Jen's spells. They're meant to have an eastern/asian feel, but are made for 3.5e.

I haven't looked at them myself, since I've never played one. I can't vouch as to their balance.


----------



## Dr Simon

I don't have Complete Arcane, but I've got a copy of Dungeon that has an OA adventure in, and they reprint a lot of the 3.5 Wu Jen stuff in there (although the adventure has a water/ice theme so most of the spells are along those lines). It also has an encounter with a living swarm of soap bubbles, kind of remniscent of the Ghibli animation Spirited Away. (Wish there was a smiley that adequately conveyed "cool, in a stupid kind of way").


----------



## Dr Simon

Question for players of nai-nek-chai characters (and other interested parties)

Would the following feat be useful, do you think?

*Swift Shapechange.*
Instead of spending a standard action to change between human and animal forms (and vice versa), you can do so as a a swift action.


----------



## Blackrat

Dr Simon said:


> Question for players of nai-nek-chai characters (and other interested parties)
> 
> Would the following feat be useful, do you think?
> 
> *Swift Shapechange.*
> Instead of spending a standard action to change between human and animal forms (and vice versa), you can do so as a a swift action.




From standard to swift. No matter what the action, if it's something you do often, that's a hell of a feat. From standard to move would be good already, but to swift, it's definetly usefull.


----------



## Shayuri

Arr...as much as I'm kicking myself for saying it, standard action to move action might be more along the lines of established feats, like Fast Wildshape.

Not that I'd complain if it stayed standard to swift.


----------



## Walking Dad

Shayuri said:


> Arr...as much as I'm kicking myself for saying it, standard action to move action might be more along the lines of established feats, like Fast Wildshape.
> 
> Not that I'd complain if it stayed standard to swift.



Seconded. But I'm still more interested in a feat, that allows speaking or casting in animal shape.


----------



## Dr Simon

Swift might be a bit much, eh?  I thought a move action might be too little for a feat, and the difference between nai-nek-chai shapechanging and druidic wild shape is that you are limited to just the one animal form.

However, if I set it as a move action, I've also got an idea for a nai-nek-chai master shifter prestige class that gives you extra forms and enhances shifting ability. If I make Fast Shapechange a pre-requisite I can enhance it at later levels to a swift action. Hmm.

WD - following our last discussion I put a feat up on the Conclave website, na-nak-chai page, that allows speaking whilst in animal form. As far as spellcasting goes its a sort of halfway house in that it allows spells with verbal and material/focus components but not somatic. I'd be happy to allow Natural Spell to work for nnc animal forms as well, but that one allows spell-casting and not communication. However, I think it's a fair balance and gives the fun of chosing one over the other


----------



## Walking Dad

But there are animal forms that have hands able to make gestures. Monkey hands should be as able casting as Treant, demon, or lizardfolk ones. (The examples all allow for somatic components.)


----------



## Dr Simon

I'd always been under the assumption that somatic components were more than just hand gestures, but required body postures as well, which would be subtly different between ape and man (longer arms etc.).

However, it's an interesting borderline case. I don't want to make it too difficult to achieve spellcasting and/or speech in animal form. I'd be willing to go with the fact that some animal form choices are better than others (which I think is the case anyway). Any thoughts?


----------



## Walking Dad

As I said, it is raw and common opinion, that wizards polymorphed into treants can use verbal and somatic components freely. And yes, there could be some perks for choosing an animal form without flight or claws.

(Baboon being powerful form is costing the medium sized feat and not part of being monkey.)


----------



## Dr Simon

I thought I'd addressed this, but perhaps I composed a post that then got lost.

I'm going to go with two feats - one a variant of Natural Spell that lets you cast spells in your nai-nek-chai animals form, the other one that lets you speak in your nai-nek-chai animal form.  If you happen to also have a monkey or ape animal form, this is human enough that you can perform somatic gestures well enough.


----------



## Dr Simon

Here's how hit points work for levelling up with the grace/health system:

Same as before, basically, except...

Hit points from the class hit die are added to Grace
Hit points from Constitution bonus are added to Health
+1 point to Health.

No-one has a negative Con bonus so we don't need to worry about that, but it would come off Grace (so you'd get +1 Health and Class Hit Die-Con Penalty to Grace).

You can Invis. Castle your hit points or get me to do it if you Fear The One.


----------



## Shayuri

I've been suggesting in other threads I'm in that we move the game off Enworld.

It's been so bad lately that I can no longer promise to post with ANY frequency.

There are many PBP sites that could easily host us.

Thoughts?

PS - To save myself a post, this applies to your Babylon 5 game too.


----------



## Dr Simon

I'm happy with that, if you can suggest alternatives. I thought the site would be faster when they updated, but it's been as slow as ever.


----------



## Dr Simon

Further to the last, I've got a forum attached to the Creative Conclave site which we could use. It's an EZboard one, I don't think it does much singing and dancing in terms of different fonts and that (although I've not really explored it). We could use that if necessary.

Where is everybody? Holidays? Bored?


----------



## Shayuri

I'm here.

Annika hasn't got the statue though so...


----------



## Blackrat

Shayuri said:


> I'm here.
> 
> Annika hasn't got the statue though so...




No? I thought she took it? Someone better have taken the statue . Yeah, I'm here too. ENW has been indeed acting up lately...


----------



## Dr Simon

I recall Annika had it as you left the temple. She would have had to drop it when she turned into an eagle, but I'll assume that *somebody* remembered to pick it up after the fight, even if it was one of the Vashti's novices.

Don't forget to advance your characters to level 2, BTW.


----------



## The Rolling Man

Annika was the one who retrieved the statue from the dead (or not?) spirit. Most of us assumed she kept it afterward.

As for my lack of activity, I got to be honest and say that I mostly lost interest simply because of the lack of upgrades across all my games. I don't know if that's because of summer or the ENworld troubles but I'll try to post more in the next few days. Hopefully my postings will stir up some more.


----------



## Shayuri

Hee. I posted.

Sorry for delay/confusion.

Enworld's improved a lot, and seems to be continuing to be good. I am cautiously optimistic.


----------



## Dr Simon

I think summer has probably diminished posting in general, but ENworld was being cranky the last couple of weeks as well. I've had a few posts time out whilst I was trying to upload them, which is pretty annoying. But as Shayuri says it seems to be picking up again. I blame the 4th Edition adverts...


----------



## The Rolling Man

I've updated Jar'Thol to lvl 2. The only thing I wasn't sure about was the number of hp (grace) I get. I've put 4 (out of a maximum of 6) but I can change it or roll for it if that's what we do.

Here's a list of the changes:
+2 grace points
+1 to BAB and all attacks
+1 to will save
+1 round for the travel domain power
+1 0-lvl spell per day
+1 1st lvl spell per day
+1 to the following skills : Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Knw (Spirit), Knw (Nature) and Spot (6 skill points)
+2 synergy bonus to Survival due to 5 ranks of Knw (nature)

On another note ... 4th lvl will be pretty sweet for Jar'Thol. One more spirit guide and domain, and 2nd lvl spells. It's still far off however .

Edit : I'm silly, I didn't see the post above. I got 2  Hit points for level 2 (1d6=2)


----------



## Walking Dad

Roll HP for me, please.


----------



## Dr Simon

Walking Dad said:


> Roll HP for me, please.




Assuming you're going with another level of druid,

1d8 = 4.


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:


> Assuming you're going with another level of druid,
> 
> 1d8 = 4.



Yes, 1d8, thanks.


----------



## Walking Dad

Shayuri said:


> ...
> 
> "Ape?" Annika asks as they await Jar's return. "Can you speak with those monkeys and ask them what happened here?"



Can Ape do this? I mean, can I speak as a baboon with monkeys?


----------



## Dr Simon

I'll go for that. I think nai-nek-chai ought to be able to communicate with similar beasts to their type, not just the specific species. Although technically he's an ape* and they're monkeys, this is magic!  Plus he's got Wild Empathy anyway, which we could assume to augment his natural ability to communicate with primates.

*Or are baboons a type of monkey?  They've got external tails. Wikipedia here I come.

Edit: Old World Monkey, genus Papio. Not that Linnaean cataloguing exists in Conclave.


----------



## Shayuri

Hee

I think I got confused with the Wild Shape druid ability, which lets druids communicate with the broad animal type they assume. A druid in the shape of a bird can talk to any bird, for example. I can't really access the background material here, so I couldn't remember how it worked for Conclave, if indeed it worked at all.


----------



## Blackrat

*Shamed*  Eh, sorry for the delay. I finally got Three Flowers updated.


----------



## Dr Simon

Shayuri said:


> Hee
> 
> I think I got confused with the Wild Shape druid ability, which lets druids communicate with the broad animal type they assume. A druid in the shape of a bird can talk to any bird, for example. I can't really access the background material here, so I couldn't remember how it worked for Conclave, if indeed it worked at all.




It's in the fluff text of the nai-nek-chai character PDF, but it ought to go in the mechanics section too. I think the broad animal type works best, rather than exactly the same species. 

Blackrat: Seen, thanks!


----------



## Walking Dad

[sblock=Dr Simon]
Hi, I think about DMing one last 3.5 game after 'Base of Operation' ended. Just a simple dungeoncrawl for 2nd level characters, using only the SRD. Interested?

This is the link:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/talking-talk/242045-3-5-ooc-hall-dwarven-lord.html
[/sblock]


----------



## The Rolling Man

Blackrat said:


> Three Flowers was about to answer to the captain but the little shaman was faster and his words matched those of Three Flowers' thoughts. There was no need to add anything until the man responded.



Hopefully I didn't step on any toes ...


----------



## The Rolling Man

I'm leaving for some vacation tomorrow and I won't have any internet access until the 28th. Feel free to npc Jar'Thol as needed. I'm looking forward to continuing the game in the coming next year.


----------



## The Rolling Man

Dr. Simon said:
			
		

> OOC:
> 
> I've been thinking that I might do away with the Health/Grace element and just leave it as standard hit points, as it's a bit fiddly to keep track of the two seperate values. I might leave in a "healing surge" kind of mechanic, though, so that Jar'Thol doesn't only ever cast CLW.



I pretty much agree here but I just wonder how is it limited. Can we do it x number of times per day, once per encounter, both or something else ? I'm guessing you don't have it all figured out yet but I thought I'd ask.


----------



## Dr Simon

I'm not a 4th Ed. owner, so I don't know how the "healing surges" work there, but I was thinking something along the lines of a number of times per day equal to your level.  But then, how much do you get per "time".

So I then though, per day you can heal a number of d8s worth of damage, per you level. So at 2nd level that's 2d8 per day, either in one big 2d8 surge, or 2 little 1d8 surges.  I think I'd keep it as a possible combat action, as per the "taking stock" action from Experimental Might - a Standard Action that doesn't draw an AoO. 

I may also, for flavour, keep the idea that "Health" damage (i.e. once you are down to a number of hit points equal to your Con) can't be healed this way, and it's only at this point that you start taking physical wounds rather than bumps, bruises and fatigue. Not sure on this bit.


----------



## Walking Dad

In 4e, a surge's value equals a 4th of your total HP rounded down.

Trying to convert the number of times a day, I would say:
d10 = 9+ Con mod
d8 = 7+ Con mod
d6 & d4 = 6+ Con mod


----------



## The Rolling Man

Does Jar'Thol know anything further on Heartsflow, master Salmon and/or mistress Iris ? (Knowledge (spirits) +7)


----------



## Dr Simon

[sblock=Rolling Man]
Jar'Thol han't heard of these *specifically*, but he doesn know that sometimes a place in the mortal realm has its echo in the spirit realm in the form of a single location. So Heartsflow is probably the focal point for the spirits of the Leng River (or perhaps even just a small stretch of the Leng River), and Salmon, Iris and Catfish are probably local spirits. Master Salmon, for example, is probably not the Celestial Minister in charge of all salmon, but simply either a local governer for all salmon in the Leng River, or even just the spirit of one particularly old and wise salmon.
[/sblock]


----------



## Dr Simon

[sblock=Blackrat]
So, Three Flowers is a descendant of Geese Flying South. Although he doesn't know it yet, he carries a heritage of the river spirits. 

You have two options you can use, if you wish, or ignore if you don't.  You can use the  Bloodline rules for water elementals , but these are a bit lame in my opinion. 

The second option is to use racial levels (as paragon levels) in River Spirit Folk. You take these as you would any other multi-classing option (they don't count against favoured class). There are 3 levels, with 3/4 BAB (+0,+1,+2), good Reflex saves and 4 + Int skill points per level. Class skills are Diplomacy, Heal, Hide, Listen, Profession (fisherman), Profession (boatman), Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim.
Class powers: Level 1 - gain a 30 ft. Swim speed. Level 2 - gain a +2 bonus to saving throws against "water" spells and SLAs, plus the ability to _speak with fish_, 1/day. Level 3 - gain permanent _water breathing_ effect.

It's an the choice is one or the other mechanic, or neither if they don't appeal.
[/sblock]


----------



## Blackrat

I'll think about that. I was also thinking of making White Lotus into a Heirloom Item. I just don't remember what book those were in, but I'll check it later. But I was thinking that it would have been Geese's originally.


----------



## Dr Simon

I did a quick search for Heirloom items... and they seem to be in Star Wars Saga (KotOR supplement)!  However, on similar lines I direct your attention to the Bonded Item feat adapted from Arcana Evolved, which is somewhere near the beginning of this topic, I think. If not, I'll add it in. My thinking is that a ceremony involving 300gp worth of materials is enough to transfer the Ancestral Bond (and, coincidentally, cover the cost for a masterwork item that oddly enough gives the same mechanical effects....). You can then, however, invest your own XP into adding enchantments to the item as if you were able to use Craft Magic Arms and Armour, so the item "grows" with you.

Alternatively we could use the Scion rules (I've never run them before), or I'm open to other ideas if you have them.

(Ever since the original West End Games d6 Star Wars game allowed players to spend their experience on their *spaceship*, I've loved the idea of equipment that grows with the character).


----------



## Shayuri

Arr, signature items are staples of fantasy fiction and myth.

Many, if not all, iconic fantasy heroes and villains have some object or item that they perform their great deeds with the aid of, and becomes part of their legend.


----------



## Blackrat

Ah... Took me a while to find the feat I meant. It was in a book I least expected. Well close to least, Book of Vile Darkness would have been even more surpricing... Anyways, feat called Ancestral Relic from Book of Exalted Deeds. I realise that it wouldn't work exactly as written there but if you have the book, take a look and let me know what you think. It is basically like that Bonded Item, but you sacrifice items/money on enhancing its magic instead of XP.

EDIT: I decided to write it up in case you don't have the book. I don't know how infringing it is to post a complete feat but I hope it's ok, since I'm only giving out one...

Ancestral Relic

You own an ancestral heirloom and can invest it with increasing power.

Prerequisite: Any good alignment, character level 3rd.
Benefit: Choose an item you own. The item must be of masterwork quality, and it must be an item that once belonged to a member of your family. Alternatively, the item may have belonged to another person to whom you are somehow connected, such as another member of your religious order.
At any time, you may retreat to a consecrated or hallowed location and spend time in prayer in order to awaken the spirits in your ancestral relic. This requires a sacrifice of valuable items worth the difference between the market price of the magic item your relic will become and the market price of your current relic. This sacrifice does not have to be gold - you can sacrifice magic items or other goods worth the required amount, rather than selling your goods (at half value) to pay for the sacrifice. You must spend 1 day per 1,000 gp value you sacrifice. During this rime, you must spend at least 5 hours each day in prayer or meditation, not stopping to eat or rest.
For example, a 4th-level paladin has a masterwork bastard sword she inherited from her grandfather. She makes sacrifices worth 2,000 gp and spends two days in prayer and fasting in the temple of Heironeous. When she emerges, her devotion has awakened the magic inherent in the blade, making it a +1 bastard sword. When she reaches 7th level, she once again retreats to the temple for 6 days, sacrificing items worth an additional 6,000 gp to make her weapon a +2 bastard sword (market price 8,000 gp). When she reaches 11th level, she can make it a +2 holy bastard sword by making sacrifices worth 24,000 gp (the difference between 32,000 and 8,000 gp) and spending 24 days in prayer.
A character's level dictates the maximum value of his or her ancestral relic, as shown below.
No character may have more than one ancestral relic.


lvl	Maximum Relic Value
3rd	1,350gp
4th	2,700 gp
5th	4,500 gp
6th	6,500 gp
7th	9,500 gp
8th	13,500 gp
9th	18,000 gp
10th	24,500 gp
11th	33,000 gp
12th	44,000 gp
13th	55,000 gp
14th	75,000 gp
15th	100,000 gp
16th	130,000 gp
17th	170,000 gp
18th	220,000 gp
19th	290,000 gp
20th	380,000 gp


----------



## Blackrat

Regarding the bloodline thing, I like those racial levels, and might take first of them in next lvl up.


----------



## Dr Simon

Regarding copyright, yeah, I'm not sure on that. For this kind of purpose its probably not too serious, I know I've posted huge chunks of the B5 2nd Edition RPG now!  Since I don't have the Book of Exalted Deeds (although I've got Vile Darkness), thanks for posting that.

Feat looks fine to me - the only difference to Bonded Item really is the level limit set on the gp value, which makes sense to me. (The true Bonded Item feat actually just gives you a +1 bonus to using the item, none of the extra enchantment possibilities, but it kind of made sense.)

Probably not long until the next level-up.


----------



## The Rolling Man

*Jar'Thol to lvl 3 !*

Hey ! (see the title)

Once again, here's a list of the changes:
+4 grace points
+1 to health (for the lvl - so 25 hp is the new total)
+1 to BAB and all attacks
+1 to fort and reflex saves
+1 round for the travel domain power
+1 1st lvl spell per day
+1 to the following skills : Concentration, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Knw (Spirit), Knw (Geography) and Knw (Nature) (6 skill points)
Animal companion
1 Feat

I have a couple of question. First, I'm gonna pick a medium viper for Jar'Thol's companion. Snakes can climb trees (like Jar'Thol) and swim (there's lot of water in this campaign. It is the romance of the *river* kingdoms after all). For flavor reasons, I think it should be some sort of venomous aquatic snake. The way I see it, a snake spirit from Heartsflow will be compelled to follow the shaman without him consciously doing anything to provoke it. I see Jar'thol as a bit absent-minded when it comes to his powers. What I don't know is whatever you want to roleplay all that in the game. I also wonder if Jar'Thol will have to teach the snake any tricks or will it come 'prepackaged' with some.

Second, I don't know if you have access to the Complete Champion but I'd like to pick Imbued Healing for Jar'Thol. I think it fits him pretty well. I can pick something else if you don't have access to it or don't like it but, imo, there's just isn't much interesting feats for casters in the core game.


----------



## Shayuri

Here's my levelup log.

2 more grace
Roll Lookup
(I'm not sure how I'm doing Grace/Health. I think it's wrong on my sheet. I'll post it here.)
+1 Fort, +1 reflex.
+1 Bluff, and +1 Spellcraft
+1 1st level spell slot.
Additional 1st level spell known: Pyrotechnics
New Feat: Not sure yet
Increase in Familiar abilities (+1 natural armor, +1 Int, deliver touch spells)


----------



## Walking Dad

can you roll HP for me?

Changes and level up log is in the RG
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4102648-post3.html


----------



## Dr Simon

WD: I rolled a 6.


----------



## Blackrat

Hey Doc. About that feat we discussed in last page. Post #156. Is it okay for me to take it? Also, how would I go about making White Lotus into a masterwork item? Could it be described just as a spiritual bonding and "sacrificing" the money needed, or would you like a more raw approach and me to find a blacksmith to do it?


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:


> WD: I rolled a 6.



Thanks! Added!


----------



## Dr Simon

Yikes, I only looked at WD's post, didn't notice everyone else above!

TRM:  I don't have access to that feat, but if you post it I'd be happy to consider it. I know what you mean about core caster feats, which is why generally I prefer Arcana Evolved. As for the animal companion, I think this is a perfectly acceptable option. I think I'll introduce the creature when the time comes to move on from Heartsflow (one way or another). I realised the other day that I've been sat on a load of salsham'ai-based feats that I've never gotten around to putting up on the CC website. See spoiler block below.

Blackrat:  Feat is fine with me.  I'm happy to go with a ritual approach to upgrading White Lotus, rather than reforging it. The net effect (monetary cost) is the same. I imagine it is already a finely-made blade, just not mechanically classed as "masterwork".

[SBLOCK=Salsham'ai feats]
These first few are general feats, some specific to the salsham'ai physiology.

*Enhanced Camouflage [Salsham’ai]*
Your natural camouflage ability has a greater range of tones.
Prerequisite:  Salsham’ai
Benefit: Your natural ability to change your skin tones has a greater range of colour. The racial bonus to Hide is +4 even when you are not in natural surroundings.
Normal:  The racial bonus to Hide is +4 in natural surroundings and +2 otherwise.

*Fast Climber [General]*
You are able to climb at an accelerated rate.
Prerequisite:  Dex 15+
Benefit: Due to superior climbing ability you are able to climb at double speed without penalty. Creatures without a listed climb speed normally climb at one quarter of their base rate. With this feat they may climb at one half of their base movement rate. If you are of a race that has a base climb speed you may also climb at triple your climb rate by taking a -5 penalty to Climb checks. You can maintain this triple speed for the same duration as a run x3 movement rate. You cannot use this feat if your movement rate has been reduced through armour or encumbrance.
Normal:  Characters can normally climb at double speed with a -5 penalty to the Climb check, and may not travel at triple speed.

*Multi-Dextrous [Salsham’ai]*
You are able to use your feet as well as your hands for manipulating objects.
Prerequisite: Salsham’ai
Benefit: When using your feet to manipulate items you take no penalty to any check required.
Normal: A salsham’ai normally takes a -4 penalty to any check made using the feet to manipulate.
Special: This feat does not remove the need for the salsham’ai to use other limbs for stability. This feat does not remove any penalties relating to two-weapon fighting.

*Spider Wrestling [General]*
You compensate for your size when grappling larger opponents.
Prerequisite: Small size or less, Improved Grapple
Benefit: When grappling with opponents of larger size than you, your size counts as one higher for the purposes of a grapple check. 

These next feats use the salsham'ai view of magic, a kind of mix of reiki and feng shui that pictures magic as a flowing, almost living force that passes through four meridians in the body. It sort of ties with a subsystem whereby choosing to be a Pas Aat caster at first level affects the way you can cast spells - Divination at 1 level higher, Evocation at 1 level lower and no Conjuration (Creation) spells, plus the ability to use Pas Aat feats. Hence Heart Magic needs work to be usable without this subsystem.

*Crown (Violet) Magic [Pas Aat]*
You can focus your magic through the Crown Meridian, the centre of the intellect and communication.
Prerequisite: Able to cast 1st level spells.
Benefit: By preparing and/or casting Language-Dependent spells at one spell level higher you can remove the need to speak the target’s language. Such spells produce a visible violet glow when cast. Furthermore you gain a permanent +1 bonus to all saves against Mind-Affecting spells.

*Heart (Blue) Magic [Pas Aat]*
You can focus your magic through the Heart Meridian, the centre of the emotions and creativity.
Prerequisite: Able to cast 1st level spells.
Benefit: Your spells are so artisitically unique that anyone attempting to counterspell suffers a -2 penalty to Spellcraft checks to recognise them. Your increased ties to the power of creativity also allows you to access spells of the Conjuration (Creation) school, but only if the spell level does not exceed half the maximum spell level that you can cast. For example, a character able to cast 6th level spells may only prepare and cast Conjuration (Creation) spells up to 3rd level.

*Navel (Orange) Magic [Pas Aat]*
You can focus your magic through the Navel Meridian, the centre for health and vitality.
Prerequisite: Able to cast 1st level spells.
Benefit: You cast all spells of the Conjuration (Healing) school as if one level higher for the purpose of level-based variables. Spells cast in such a fashion produce a visible orange glow. Furthermore you gain a permanent +1 bonus to all saves versus spells of the Necromancy school.

*Root (Red) Magic [Pas Aat]*
You can focus your magic through the Root Meridian, the centre for survival and protection.
Prerequisite: Able to cast 1st level spells.
Benefit: You cast all spells of the Abjuration school as if one level higher. All spells cast in such a fashion produce a red glow. Furthermore, once per day you can add your caster level to one saving throw. You must announce this before rolling the die.

These are some further Pas Aat feats of general usage. I think the Pas Aat Strike tree might need work to balance it. 

*Draw Pas Aat [Pas Aat]*
You are able to gather Pas Aat to replenish your magical energy.
Prerequisite: Able to cast 1st level spells, Wis 17+
Benefit: Once per day the character may meditate and attempt to draw in the ambient Pas Aat around him to recover a spent spell or spell slot. To do so takes about 10 minutes in a quiet environment and requires a Concentration check DC (15 + level of the spell or spell slot). If successful, the spell or spell slot returns as if unused. Draw Pas Aat is a supernatural ability.

*Energise Pas Aat Crystal [Item Creation, Pas Aat]*
Prerequisite: Able to cast 1st level spells.
Benefit: You can energise a crystal to contain one spell that you know. This spell can be cast by anyone holding the crystal but once cast the spell is lost and the crystal becomes inert. Energising a Pas Aat crystal takes one day. When you energise a crystal, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a crystal is 10gp per level of spell that it is to contain, and there are further costs for ritual components required in focussing the Pas Aat.  These cost spell level x  caster level x 25 gp. To energise a crystal, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP.  Spells with a casting time of longer than 1 standard action require double the cost in gp and xp to store. Inert crystals may be re-used but once energised by a particular spell they become so attuned to it that they may only contain that spell in future. 
Any crystal that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when energising the crystal.
You need to be a Pas Aat spellcaster to energise a Pas Aat crystal, and spells stored must conform to the parameters of Pas Aat magic, for example no Conjuration (creation) spells may be stored as these are forbidden to Pas Aat casters.

*Pas Aat Strike [Pas Aat]*
Using your knowledge of Pas Aat meridians, you are able to deliver precise, debilitating strikes to your opponent. Alternatively, you may manipulate the Pas Aat meridians to remove debilitations.
Prerequisite:  Wis 13+, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: When you make an unarmed attack you may declare before-hand that you wish to perform a Pas Aat strike, and what effect you wish to achieve. If your attack succeeds, your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 +1/2 your level + your Wisdom modifier) or suffer one of the following conditions for 1 round per four of your character levels: Dazed, Deafened, Fatigued or Sickened. 
Alternatively, a Pas Aat strike can be used to cure any of these conditions. If the condition is caused by disease or spell, then the Pas Aat striker must make an attack roll to beat the save DC of the condition, otherwise the attempt automatically succeeds at the cost of one use of Pas Aat strike.
If the character has the Stunning Fist feat they may use a Pas Aat strike in place of one of their Stunning Fist attacks. If they do not have the Stunning Fist feat they may use a Pas Aat strike once per day for every five character levels that they have. A Pas Aat strike that misses does not count as a use.
The Pas Aat Strike is a supernatural ability.
Special:  Monks who follow the Skill of Raindrops or Spider in Amber styles may select this as a bonus feat.

*Pas Aat Strike, Greater [Pas Aat]*
Your ability to affect the condition of targets using Pas Aat strikes is increased.
Prerequisite: Pas Aat Strike
Benefit: When you make an unarmed attack you may declare before-hand that you wish to perform a Pas Aat strike, and what effect you wish to achieve.  If your attack succeeds, your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 +1/2 your level + your Wisdom modifier) or suffer one of the following conditions for 1 round per four of your character levels: Blinded, Exhausted, Nauseated, Paralyzed.
Alternatively, a Pas Aat strike can be used to cure any of these conditions. If the condition is caused by disease or spell, then the Pas Aat striker must make an attack roll to beat the save DC of the condition.
If the character has the Stunning Fist feat they may use a Pas Aat strike in place of one of their Stunning Fist attacks. If they do not have the Stunning Fist feat they may use a Pas Aat strike once per day for every five character levels that they have.
Greater Pas Aat Strike is a supernatural ability.

*Block Pas Aat [Pas Aat]*
Through precise blows aimed at meridional points, you can affect the flow of Pas Aat through an opponent and hinder his magical ability.
Prerequisite: Pas Aat Strike, Bas attack bonus 8+
Benefit: You make a single unarmed attack, declaring before the attack roll is made that you wish to use this feat. If the attack succeeds, your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 +1/2 your level + your Wisdom modifier) or be unable to use spells or spell-like abilities for 1 round per four of your character levels

If the character has the Stunning Fist feat they may use a Block Pas Aat attempt in place of one of their Stunning Fist attacks. If they do not have the Stunning Fist feat they may Block Pas Aat once per day for every five character levels that they have.
Block Pas Aat is a supernatural ability.
[/sblock]


----------



## Shayuri

Ooo...any cool race specific feats for Annika you've been holding back? 

I'm trying to decide what to do with that 3rd level feat...


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## Dr Simon

I'm afraid not - the salsham'ai are the most detailed of the Conclave races.  You could take Natural Spell, for the flying gunship effect. Or there's that Fire Mage feat I posted (now in the 1st post of this thread). I'm open to non-core feats, but you'll probably have to give me the details.


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## Shayuri

*reads Fire Mage*

...

*jaw falls open*

Doc! How did I MISS that?!

Natural Spell can't be taken before level 6 anyway, so this is -perfect-!

I'm totally taking that. 

Also, while I'm thinking of it, have you had a chance to check out Pathfinder? It's still 3.5, but has some interesting elements to it. Might be some conversion work though, so... *shrug*

Edit - *reads online sheet* Gah...I never updated the description and background on this. Man. Okay, this time for real.


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## Dr Simon

I think you've failed a Perception check big time, there, Shay.

Not only did you reply to the Fire Mage feat when I first posted it, but you're currently playing in a game that I'm running using Pathfinder!

I like the PF rules - they're not unlike a lot of Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, which is unsurprising since Monte Cook is an advisor to PF. I particularly like the added flexibility to the character classes - rage abilities, more rogue abilities, added fighter elements, sorcerer bloodlines, familiars or arcane bonds, the list goes on.  I'm not massively up to speed with them, as for Crimson Throne I'm only really checking bits as and when they crop up. 

Oh, like the new Annika pic, by the way.


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## Shayuri

Meep.

In my defense, you first posted that when we were at level 1, which was approximately 30,000 years ago, during the Old Republic. I haven't had to look at feats again until now, so it's natural that this creaky old mind didn't hold it that long.  I didn't take it right away, because I needed Eschew Materials.

As for the the Crimson Throne...I'm in something along the lines of 15 PBP's here on Enworld. Keeping who does what straight is occasionally a chore. 

That said, you're right, I should have remembered that much at least.

Have you considered updating River Kingdoms to Pathfinder?

And thanks! Sadly, the site doesn't seem to let me link to it directly as an Image, so I can't just put it up.


----------



## The Rolling Man

*Imbued Healing*

Clicky

It might be a bit more powerful for Shaman since they get more domains then, say, clerics. I don't think it's totally OP however.


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## Dr Simon

Re: Imbued Healing

Yeah, Blackrat PMed me the same link but I didn't have time yesterday to put anything up here.  Perhaps a touch more powerful than expected due to the extra domains, but it's interesting, and quite in keeping with the flavour so I'm going to allow it.


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## Dr Simon

Just a quick prod here for a few points.

Shayuri:  I take it you're going to take that Fire Mage feat for your 3rd level feat? 

Blackrat: Also on feats - I assume you're going ahead with the Ancestral Weapon feat?  I'm happy to grant it. Are you also going to take a level of that "spirit-blooded" class I posted, stick with paladin, or something else?

How do people feel about keeping Xielt as an NPC?  Keep the old gang together or trim out the dead meat? I don't mind either way, but as a playtest I've given him a level of Tlaxu. Maybe one day I'll post the updated version in the RG.


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## Shayuri

Yessir, that feat looks like the cat's meow.

I would like to take it.


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## Walking Dad

May I change my Goodberry spell to Produce Flame? (I think you can change one spell the levels you aquire a new spell level)

I would like to have a Produce Lightning variant, for Shayuri being the fire mage


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## Blackrat

Yeah, I'll take the feat. I'm still considering on the level-up. On one hand the paragon level sounds good, but on the other hand I'm not so sure. I'll try to make up my mind and update the sheet during the weekend.


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## Dr Simon

WD: Yes, no problem. I don't recall offhand the spell-swapping rules, but since you've never used Goodberry I don't think it matters much. Produce Lightning would be okay.  Also okay with the background material in the IC thread, I like the direction that takes...

Blackrat: No worries. If you decide to go for 3rd level Paladin you need to choose if Aura of Courage is suitable for Three Flowers style, or if you'd like it to have another effect (maybe against SLAs of Aberrations or something like that).


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## Walking Dad

Thanks  Will edit the sheet.


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## Blackrat

I'll take the racial level. Would you mind throwing me HP? You didn't mention what HD to use for those.


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## Dr Simon

Oops, didn't spot this.

d8 hit dice. I rolled a... 3. Sorry! Don't forget that you get +1 per level as well as Con bonus.


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## Blackrat

Good. Sheet updated.


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## Neurotic

Mystal Mar..........................Male Salsham'ai

Strength............10-2 (-1)...........Character Level: 3 /Swordsage 3, XP: 3000
Dexterity...........16+2 (+4)...........Small Size, Speed 20 ft.
Constitution......12 (+1)............Initiative: +9, BAB: +2, Grapple: +1
Intelligence.......12 (+1)............Melee: +2 (+6 Finesse), Ranged: +6
Wisdom...........15+2 (+3)............Total HP: ?
Charisma..........8 (-1)...............Fortitude: +1+1, Reflex: +3+4, Will: +3+3

WIS +1 at 4th level
AC: 10 + 4(DEX) + 3(WIS) +1(small) + armor = 18 + armor = 23

Racial:
-2 STR; +2 DEX; +2 WIS
small, base speed 20'; climb speed 10'
+4 size bonus to sneak checks
+8 racial bonus to climb
+4 racial to hide in woodlands (+2 if woodland tones only)
prehensile feet (at -4 penalty)
+2 racial bonus to checks to prevent fall
+2 racial bonus to Craft, Diplomacy and Knowledge (nature)
Automatic Languages: Themnassic and Common (Low Imperial); 

Alignment: Chaotic Good, Age 30, Height 2'10'', Weight 30 lbs.
White Skin, Pink Eyes, Long White Hair (albino)

Languages: Susaran (Themnassic), Low Imperial, High Imperial

Proficiencies: All simple weapons, martial melee weapons and light armors.

Feats:
1st: Focused Attack
1st: Weapon focus (rapier)
3rd: Improved Initiative
--6th: Adaptive Style



Skills:
Appraise +1 (0 ranks, +1 Int),
Balance +7 (1 ranks, +4 Dex, +2 synergy),
Climb +8 (1 ranks, -1 Str, +8 racial),
Concentration +8 (5 ranks, +2 Con),
Heal +3 (0 ranks +3 Wis),
Hide +10 (2 ranks, +4 Dex, +4 small size, racial +2/+4 in woodlands),
Intimidate (0 ranks -1 Str),
Jump +6 (5 ranks, -1 Str, +2 synergy),
Knowledge (history) +2 (1 rank, +1 Int),
Knowledge (local) +2 (1 rank, +1 Int),
Listen +7 (4 ranks, +3 Wis),
Martial Lore +2/+4 (1 rank, +1 Int, +2 Diamond Mind/Shadow Hand),
Move Silently +13 (5 ranks, +4 Dex, +4 small),
Profession (Bounty Hunter) +2 (1 rank, +1 Int) - just for story sake
Ride +5 (1 rank +4 Dex)
Sense Motive +5 (2 ranks, +3 Wis),
Spot +7 (4 ranks +3 Wis),
Swim +0 (1 rank, -1 Str),
Tumble +12 (6 ranks, +4 Dex, +2 synergy),

Skill trick: Extreme leap (2 points) - after jump of at least 10' move additional 10'
-----------------------------------------
42 skill points 




AC Bonus: Adds Wisdom bonus to Armor Class (inlcuding touch attacks) except when immobilized. - as monk

Discipline Focus: Weapon Focus in all Diamond Mind weapons,
+2 on Martial Lore checks related to the Diamond Mind or Shadow Hand disciplines,
Quick to Act: +1 Initiative.


Swordsage Maneuvers: Initiator level 3, knows 2 stances and 8 other maneuvers, can ready 5 maneuvers.
Stances: Flame's blessing (desert wind 1), Island of Blades (shadow hand 1)
1st-Level Maneuvers:
--Clinging Shadow Strike (strike, shadow hand, DC 14),
Shadow blade technique
Counter Charge (counter, setting sun), 
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (strike, diamond mind),
Stone Bones (strike, stone dragon).

2nd-Level Maneuvers:
--Baffling Defense (counter, settings sun)
Fire reposte(counter, desert wind 2)
Clever Positioning (strike, setting sun)
Cloak of Deception (boost, shadow hand)
Shadow Jaunt (other, shadow hand)
--Drain Vitality (strike, shadow hand)


3rd-Level Maneuvers:
--Shadow Hand Garrote (strike)
--Mind Over Body (counter)

Active Stance: Flame's blessing

Readied Maneuvers:
Shadow Jaunt
Shadow Strike Technique
Fire reposte
Clever positioning
Cloak of deception
--Mind over body


Possessions:
Masterwork Rapier (320gp, 2lbs, 1d4 pierce, 18-20/x2 critical)
Silver Dagger (2 gp, 1/2 lb., 1d3 piercing or slashing, 19-20/x2 critical, 10 ft. increment),
Shortbow (30 gp, 1 lb., 1d4 piercing, 20/x3 critical, 60 ft. increment), 20 Arrows (1 gp, 1-1/2 lbs.),
Studded Leather armor(25 gp, 5 lbs., +3 AC, +5 maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, -1 armor check penalty, 15% arcane spell failure),
--Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000 gp, +2 Dexterity enhancement),
--Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000 gp, 1 lb., +1 resistance on saving throws),
--Handy Haversack(2,000 gp, 5 lbs)
backpack currently holds coins, poison flask, map case, bedroll, tools, survival kit, rations, and waterskins), chalk, flint, steel, and tindertwig

1 Potion of Cure Light Wounds (50 gp, heals 1d8+1 hit points), 
1 Acid Flask (1 lbs., 10 gp, 1d6 acid damage on a direct hit and 1 acid splash damage within 5 feet, actually green globes filled with acid),
Traveler's Outfit (1 gp, 1-1/4 lbs., worn outfit doesn't count towards his encumbrance),

Map Case (1 gp, 1/2 lb., holds map),
Bedroll (1 sp, 1-1/4 lbs.),
Wooden Holy Symbol of ?? (1 gp),
Chalk (1 cp),
Flint & Steel (1 gp),
Tindertwig (1 gp),
4 Trail Rations (2 gp, 1 lb.),
2 Waterskins (4 gp, 4 lbs.).
Caltrops (1gp, 1lb.)
1 oil skin (1sp, 1lb.)
--------------------------------
Remaning 10gp 7sp 9cp = 1790 yen

Light Load: 24-1/4 lbs. max..Medium Load: 48-1/2 lbs. max..Heavy Load: 75 lbs. max
Lift High: 75 lbs. max.....Lift Off Ground: 150 lbs. max....Push/Drag: 450 lbs. max
Medium Load Drawbacks: 20 ft. speed, +3 max Dex to AC, -3 check penalty.
Heavy Load Drawbacks: 20 ft. speed, x3 run, +1 max Dex to AC, -6 check penalty.

Appearance: 

The mystics backpack does not look especially full, and only one small but wide pouch adorns the back of his belt.
He wears some nice, tanned-leather gloves, well-worn black leather foot-gloves, plain brown trousers, and a dark green shirt that's covers his armor.

His hair is white and long, face half hidden in deep hood, rosy eyes watching with intensity world around.

Personality and Background:
Mystal Mar is born in the tribe of Susar, who live in the cloud forest upland regions where the braashak climbs the mountain borders with Denra-Lyr. The Susar are sometimes called Cloud or Mountain salsham'ai. They are similar to their lowland cousins except that they do not revere Themnass and Shroma but have a closer association with the smaller spirits. Mist spirits are very popular, coming at dawn to bring fertility to their mountain home. The Susar have also taken up the practice of terrace farming on the mountain slopes above the borders of the braashak. They have their own dialect, Susaran, related to Themnassic but distinct enough to cause misunderstanding. Nevertheless, relationships between Thalsan and Susar salsham'ai are cordial and fairly open." 

Mystal grew up as part of small semi-nomadic community in far north of cloud forests on the mountains. He was marked from birth by his unusual skin by superstitious folk of his tribe. His parents however tried to instill into him peace of mind and strength of will to recognize such reactions as simple fear of unknown and to control his grief over this treatment. They tried to show him that by helping community he helps himself to survive regardless of the treatment he receives.

(He was later informed that was probably because his parents were traveling through mistmoor and were touched by mistwraiths.)

After some time he was apprenticed to tribe shaman, learning basics of spirit language and some focusing techniques that were supposed to aid him in meditation and communication with spirits. Problem with young Mystal however was that he lacked patience common to his people. He was more willing to take risks and experience spirit world directly then to patiently learn from his tutor until he is ready. After many exasperated tries, Deep Root gave up on young albino.

When a mystic warrior from the mountain visited the community for a week, the young Mystal , outcast because of his 'mist blessing' and later disgrace as lost shamanic student, took an interest in the man's stories and unusual tricks,
bugging him for a few days until the older man, Orlane, allowed Mystal to prove his worth as a student.
Mystal passed Orlane's tests of agility, cleverness, prudence, and basic swordsmanship, so the teenaged albino was accepted as an apprentice.
He followed the swordsman Orlane for several years, adopting part of his mentor's philosophy and discipline for himself, but preferring to continue pursuit of bright gold and rare treasures.

In time this lead to Orlane dismissing Shaddar as a student and he has wandered alone for many years since.

Mystal struggles to maintain the warrior's discipline that his mentor taught him, so he's usually honorable and reliable, though occasionally acting purely out of self-interest. He keeps to his word, but prefers not to promise anything in the first place. Greedy and proud of his talents, Mystal is always looking to acquire treasure and glory for himself, though he's willing to share some of it, thanks to the influence of his original community.

Because of this jadednesss he is seen as strange by his own race and those familiar with gentle ways of his people. Somewhat of his naivette stemming from living his early life high in the mountains isolated from the rest of the world still remains and he is amiable to new friendships altough rarely those result in deep bond.

Mystal is used to cooperating with other folks and prefers to work alongside other people who have skills that complement his own, but doesn't forge many long-term bonds. He doesn't concern himself much with the welfare of others, but will fight for them if he's getting paid for it and on rare occasions might even do so without payment.

Mystal likes to explore and wander from place to place, seeking new opportunities and only staying in one place for a few months at a time, as he figures that people who stay still never get to have any real fun or make any significant discoveries.

He's always searching for chances to advance himself.

Current life:
A bounty-hunter and explorer of ruins, Mystal has spent the past several years wandering the land in search of riches, fame, and secret lore.
Primarily motivated by greed and pride, Mystal has braved dangerous caves and catacombs on his own and alongside various temporary allies.
So far he's only managed to plunder a few minor magic items and a handful of old coins, and a little bit of old lore on new human and tlaxi fighting techniques,
to supplement what he learned from mountain swordsage in his youth.

His occasional partnerships with other adventurers have been brief, and only motivated by a mutal need for aid to obtain treasure from dangerous places.
Mystal desires personal power and glory, but struggles to reconcile those selfish goals with the more-communal greater good that his elders and parents had once tried to teach him.

For now, glory and wealth remain his immediate goals, along with the pursuit of secrets and special techniques to better achieve those goals.

Attacks:
Rapier +8 (+2 BAB +4 DEX +1 weapon focus +1 MW weapon); 1d4 -1 piercing; 18-20/x2
Silver Dagger +2 (+7 ranged) (1d3-2 dmg) 19-20/x2
Shortbow +6 ranged for 1d4 damage (60 ft. increment, 600 max) 20/x3
Unarmed strike +2 melee for 1d3-1 nonlethal damage (provokes AoO)


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic said:


> Here is initial version of Shaddar Mar (I'll put some meaning into it once I read more of Conclave)
> I'll write everything from swordsage that's used here.
> 
> I can send you Tome of Battle in 6 files of about 5 MB if you have good connection to download it.




I have a good connection, this would be good, thanks.



Neurotic said:


> Shaddar Mar..........................Male Salsham'ai
> Character Level: 5 /Swordsage 5, XP: ??




Salsham'ai is good, but we're only at 3rd level at the moment so you'll need to adjust accordingly.



Neurotic said:


> Possessions:
> Rapier +1
> 
> Silver Dagger (2 gp, 1/2 lb., 1d3 piercing or slashing, 19-20/x2 critical, 10 ft. increment),
> Shortbow +1 (2,330 gp, 1 lb., 1d6 piercing, 20/x3 critical, 60 ft. increment), 20 Arrows (1 gp, 1-1/2 lbs.),
> Mithral Shirt Armor +1 (2,100 gp, 6-1/4 lbs., +5 AC, +6 maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, -0 armor check penalty, 10% arcane spell failure),
> Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000 gp, +2 Dexterity enhancement),
> Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000 gp, 1 lb., +1 resistance on saving throws),
> Handy Haversack(2,000 gp, 5 lbs)
> currently holds coins, poison flask, map case, bedroll, tools, survival kit, rations, and waterskins), chalk, flint, steel, and tindertwig
> 
> 3 Potions of Cure Light Wounds (50 gp, heals 1d8+1 hit points),
> 2 Acid Flasks (2 lbs., 50 gp, 1d6 acid damage on a direct hit and 1 acid splash damage within 5 feet, actually green globes filled with acid),
> Traveler's Outfit (1 gp, 1-1/4 lbs., worn outfit doesn't count towards his encumbrance),




I realise that this is for a 5th level character, but there are too many magic items here for Conclave. Probably adjusting average loot to a 3rd level character will remove some of them, but as far as I'm aware none of the other characters have a magic weapon or armour. Scrolls and potions are fine, plus perhaps one miscellaneous type item.



Neurotic said:


> The mystics backpack does not look especially full, and only one small but wide pouch adorns the back of his belt.
> He wears some nice, tanned-leather gloves, well-worn black leather boots, plain brown trousers, and a dark green shirt that's only visible at the sleeves thanks to his vest and armor.




Salsham'ai, with their prehensile toes, do not wear boots. Usual salsham'ai footwear is something like a reinforced fingerless cycling glove. 



Neurotic said:


> Personality:
> Shaddar grew up as part of small semi-nomadic community in far north of Borderlands. He was marked from birth by his unusual skin by superstitious folk of his tribe.
> His parents however tried to instill into him peace of mind and strength of will to recognize such reactions as simple fear of unknown and
> to control his grief over this treatment. They tried to show him that by helping community he helps himself to survive regardless of the treatment he receives.




Possible origin would be in the cloud forests to the north of the salsham'ai homeland, that climb the flanks of the mountains bordering human lands. The cloud salsham'ai are similar to their lowland cousins, and I quote 

_"One such subculture are the Susar, who live in the cloud forest upland regions where the braashak climbs the mountain borders with Denra-Lyr. The Susar are sometimes called Cloud or Mountain salsham'ai. They are similar to their lowland cousins except that they do not revere Themnass and Shroma but have a closer association with the smaller spirits. Mist spirits are very popular, coming at dawn to bring fertility to their mountain home. The Susar have also taken up the practise of terrace farming on the mountain slopes above the borders of the braashak. They have their own dialect, Susaran, related to Themnassic but distinct enough to cause misunderstanding. Nevertheless, relationships between Thalsan and Susar salsham'ai are cordial and fairly open." _

An albino in this area might be thought of as touched by spirits, as (a) the area is home to plentiful mist spirits and (b) the human neighbours (the Denra-Lyr) associate albinism with latent magical power.



Neurotic said:


> Background:
> A bounty-hunter and explorer of ruins, Shaddar has spent the past several years wandering the land in search of riches, fame, and secret lore.
> Primarily motivated by greed and pride, Shaddar has braved dangerous caves and catacombs on his own and alongside various temporary allies.
> So far he's only managed to plunder a few minor magic items and a handful of old coins, and a little bit of old lore on dwarven and elven fighting techniques,
> to supplement what he learned from another swordsage in his youth.




Greed is rare is salsham'ai, but not unheard of. There are no dwarves or elves in this setting. The salsham'ai have several fighting techniques of their own, notably the Skill of Raindrops (which focuses on precise, deceptively gentle, strikes to "meridians" to cause a range of effects) and Spider in Amber, which is a wrestling technique that takes advantage of the salsham'ais small size. Feel free to invent other techniques, the salsham'ai tend towards defence or ambush over frontal assault, and non-lethal over lethal, but this is not 100% limiting.



Neurotic said:


> He rides pony named Serrin, he obtained as part of bounty hunt two years past. Not very skilled rider, Shaddar recognizes the need to move quickly once the target is found and to cover vast distances of Conclave.




Horses and ponies are rare in Conclave, except for the Khazarate of Vaarta. Possible alternatives would be a shandix (a light riding antelope) or a matoo (riding apes reared by the salsham'ai).


----------



## Blackrat

Dr Simon said:


> Probably adjusting average loot to a 3rd level character will remove some of them, but as far as I'm aware none of the other characters have a magic weapon or armour.




Not yet, but 3F will have one soon enough ... Just need another level and some money


----------



## Neurotic

Salsham'ai is good, but we're only at 3rd level at the moment so you'll need to adjust accordingly.
***
No problem, I don't know why I took it to be at 5th 



as far as I'm aware none of the other characters have a magic weapon or armour. Scrolls and potions are fine, plus perhaps one miscellaneous type item.
**
very well I'll adjust items to be masterwork. Some potions and we're set.



Salsham'ai, with their prehensile toes, do not wear boots. Usual salsham'ai footwear is something like a reinforced fingerless cycling glove. 
****
Is it possible to benefit from two pairs of gloves instead of gloves and boots?



Possible origin would be in the cloud forests to the north of the salsham'ai homeland, that climb the flanks of the mountains bordering human lands. The cloud salsham'ai are similar to their lowland cousins, and I quote 

An albino in this area might be thought of as touched by spirits, as (a) the area is home to plentiful mist spirits and (b) the human neighbours (the Denra-Lyr) associate albinism with latent magical power.
****
I like this one, but if it's 'blessed' instead of 'cursed' I'll change history to reflect his training with local shaman until mountain mystic hermit came down to the village and took him for training. This would be especialy appropriate if we change 'shadow hand' maneuvers to 'mist hand' and adjust maneuvers appropriately.


Greed is rare is salsham'ai, but not unheard of. There are no dwarves or elves in this setting. 
**
I'll download more of conclave pdfs. I just assumed there are such races  I'll change it to various cultures fighting techniqueas. Greed is not extensive, more reflectio of his own personal quest for glory and gratification.


The salsham'ai have several fighting techniques of their own, notably the Skill of Raindrops (which focuses on precise, deceptively gentle, strikes to "meridians" to cause a range of effects) and Spider in Amber, which is a wrestling technique that takes advantage of the salsham'ais small size. 
***
I'll look them over


 ambush over frontal assault, and non-lethal over lethal, but this is not 100% limiting.
***
non-lethal doesn't change anything except in first round when sneak attack may come into play. Maneuvers will do (physical) damage as user attacks thus, possibility is there.



Horses and ponies are rare in Conclave, except for the Khazarate of Vaarta. ***
Do any of the others have mounts? If not I won't take it, otherwise I'll ride small matoo


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic:

Hmm... not sure if you'll find any info on the salsham'ai fighting styles on the site, actually. I can post something if you're interested, but it's only really a version of the monk variants, so not so fitting with the swordsage mechanics. The "mist hand" thing sounds good though. I like that he's quite unorthodox for a salsham'ai, which will contrast with Jar'Thol who was a fairly typical member of the species.

Races: Humans are the only SRD race found in Conclave. Others are outlined in the first post of this thread, otherwise see this page. All non-human PC races are in the downloads to the right.

No-one else has a mount, although I think Three Flowers has ranks in Ride. There may be some riding- based stuff later as I think this is an under-used facet of the game and would like to use it more. Be aware, though, that it's not called Romance of the *River* Kingdoms for nothing - a lot of stuff happens on, around or under water where a mount may not the most useful possession. 

You can play a greedy salsham'ai who does lethal damage if you like, just pointing out that it will be seen as rare. But then, he's a bit of an oddity anyway 

I'm not sure what you mean by "benefit" from two pairs of gloves instead of gloves and boots. The salsham'ai foot-glove* would count as wearing boots for the purposes of caltrops and the like, otherwise I don't see many in-game benefits. It's more a flavour thing, really.

*That's like the diametric opposite of the German for glove, literally "hand-shoe".


----------



## Blackrat

Dr Simon said:


> No-one else has a mount, although I think Three Flowers has ranks in Ride. There may be some riding- based stuff later as I think this is an under-used facet of the game and would like to use it more. Be aware, though, that it's not called Romance of the *River* Kingdoms for nothing - a lot of stuff happens on, around or under water where a mount may not the most useful possession.




Yeah, I was planning on having a horse during the char-creation but dropped it because I couldn't afford it. But if horses are rare, what would be a mount that spoiled rich kids ride with?


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## Dr Simon

Blackrat said:


> Yeah, I was planning on having a horse during the char-creation but dropped it because I couldn't afford it. But if horses are rare, what would be a mount that spoiled rich kids ride with?




Um... a horse?   Think of the cachet of riding such a rare and exotic animal!

Otherwise, perhaps an obrovon, which is a slightly more hardy version of the shandix antelope (who are mainly used for courier work).


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## Tiali

Noticed that you are picking up some replacement players, and I would love to join. However, I am not sure where to begin w/ character creation. 

I have several character concepts I'm tossing around and always love playing something new, but I am unsure which to propose based on your current roster. I'll have to check our you Rogue's Gallery roster when I get a chance.

Question 1: Are there any positions to be filled that are a party necessity (i.e. healer, mage) or any positions you as DM would like to be filled for more game options (trapfinding, track, etc). *I don't feel pressured to fill these gaps, but I enjoy it. This gives me a chance to learn new ways to work in party dynamics and also gives me a chance to develop new interesting characters. My character wont lack 'flavor' if pushed into one of these gaps, but he might be slow on the upbringing*

Question 2: Will regular PHB classes work? Such as your typical bard or druid? as long as I give him an Asian feel? Or must the character classes come from the Asian variants?

Sorry to bring up what seem like dumb questions, but just interested in building the most compatable character and personality for the game.


----------



## Theroc

I seem to be following Tiali to PbP things, as I just saw the advertisement as well, and am also interested.

The Conclave doesn't seem to indicate any statistical racial differences.  Or am I missing something?

My main concept at the moment was a Monk of some sort, most probably human with a dragon bloodline, or perhaps that shapechanger race as a shaman.  Where do I look for the mechanical information on them to see whether I'd like how they play?

Edit: Just realized I had to DL the PDF for the information, lol.

New concepts: 
T'laxu Rogue/Fighter(Or Rogue/monk or monk/fighter)
This character was raised in a human community after being orphaned while his parents were traveling.  (They thought he had died, but had merely been lost in a bandit raid)  An overall good person, he follows the laws as far as it helps the greater good.  A law that oppresses the population is one he's likely to break, either to do something to help the others, or simply to draw attention to himself so as to show people that they CAN stand up for themselves.

Wolverine/Leopard nainekchai Barbarian(or shaman)
Living in the mountains, this character can't remember his childhood, and is a general wanderer who doesn't mind helping others on occasion if he meets them, though he tends to avoid risking his neck for strangers.  Follows laws as far as they are convenient.

T'laxu Shaman
(Same basic concept as the other T'laxu)

Note: Both T'laxu will be taking levels in their race as I play.

Are any of these ideas favorable over the others?  And is there still room?

Questions: 
What are the available non-SRD fighting styles?
Can T'laxu take feats involving their natural weapons?
What would a bloodline do?  Like, the only change I noted in Threeflowers character was the swimspeed.  What sorts of things would a bloodline impart to a character?


----------



## Blackrat

Well, a player opinion: We could use some healing power and another frontline warrior would be nice. I think a "sneak" could be of use also.


----------



## Theroc

Blackrat said:


> Well, a player opinion: We could use some healing power and another frontline warrior would be nice. I think a "sneak" could be of use also.





In other words: "Everything you were thinking of would be good, Theroc" 

I'm really torn between the two races.  I think the Tlaxu would make an awesome shaman after a bit, what with the "Spirit sight" and such, but shapeshifting is also pretty awesome.

Also considering two other nainekchai types: Constrictor or Crocodile.(Constrictor because it can go almost anywhere[climb and swim speeds]) and crocodile because they could be pretty nasty in an aquatic area.  Bite->Improved Grapple-> Drag under & outlast them(Though, I'd only take those is swimming would be a relevant or important skill)

My Tlaxu decisions would rely on which class combination I was playing, though the idea of a "Concentrating strike" combined with a sudden use of the claw weapons(especially if a T'laxu is allowed Improved Natural weapon) would be really awesome for a surprise attack.

Edit: So, Tiali, which archetype will you go for?  I've got a ton of ideas already so your choices may help me narrow things down.

Also, question for Dr Simon: What happens if a barbarian class nainekchai enters badger/wolverine form and activates one of his rage abilities, then gets damaged in combat?  (both creatures rage when damaged)[This will help me narrow my choices as well]

Another question: What is the primary casting stat for a shaman?  What stat improves the DC of their spells, and grants additional spells per day(if applicable)?

Yet another question(I'm full of them): Would a T'laxu taking levels in their racial class gain proficiency with their racial races?  The PDF doesn't say they do, but if the racial levels are making them a 'better representative' of their race or what have you, one would think they'd learn at least one or more of them.

~tosses another question on the pile~ What hook would be used to draw the new characters into the adventure?  I'm assuming our characters would have missed the funeral(given the adventure's been going on quite awhile), so we'd likely be pulled in by other means.


----------



## Blackrat

Theroc said:


> In other words: "Everything you were thinking of would be good, Theroc"




Yeah, pretty much .


----------



## Dr Simon

Hello, hello.

Hmm.. lots of questions to address. I'll start at the beginning.

Tiali:  As Blackrat says, pretty much any party position is open. The two existing characters, Three Flowers and Annika, are frontline combat/etiquette and arcane magic respectively. Of the characters who we've recently lost, Xielt was a typical ranger - frontline combat and wilderness skills. Jar'Thol was mostly non-combative, a combination healer and lore-master, with potential for sneakiness if required. Growling Ape was something of an all-rounder, a druid with reasonable combat prowess (particularly when coupled with shillelagh cast on his quarterstaff) and wilderness skills.  I sort of tailor the adventure to fit the character's strength (and weaknesses), so it doesn't matter too much.

PC classes - core SRD ones are allowed, and I'm happy to have variants from Arcana Unearthed. I don't see much need for Oriental Adventure classes, although I do allow spells from that book. Culturally speaking there are no samurai or ninja types anyway. Blackrat's character Three Flowers is a noble-born warrior with poetic skill, but he uses the paladin class. You can use Psion or Psychic Warrior to emulate the _yana_ mystics of Ut'Bharma, although they consider their powers to be a different form of magic (The Way of Six Energies) rather than a completely different power source.

For the record, I don't have any of the Complete series, PHB2 or many other supplements, so I prefer the core classes, although I'm prepared to allow some tinkering, and might be open to other classes if you can provide me with the details.

Theroc: Any of those ideas are good for me. I might prefer, from a play-testing point of view, one of the non-human races, but doesn't really matter. Whichever concept grabs you most, I think.

Non-SRD fighting styles.  Hmm, not sure how many I have detailed.  There are a few ideas, but not many with concrete rules, so I'm happy to work something out with you if you want.  The two main salsham'ai styles - Skill of Raindrops and Spider in Amber are detailed, but non-salsham'ai rarely use them. There's the Kingfisher over Flowing Water style which is a fairly rare, old-fashioned two-wepaon style. White Fist is a sort of default karate-ish style. Crane Style is an escrima-like style, using fast strikes with quarterstaff of jo sticks. Butterfly with Iron Wings style is a technique designed for women, an aikkido-ish style favouring flowing defence. Oh, there's Opal Tiger style, but you need to be a loopy cultist to learn it....

Tlaxu taking natural weapon feats - I don't see why not.

Bloodline levels - well, these are full character-class style levels, so you get hit points, BAB, saves and skills, plus a special ability or two, perhaps ability score increases, at each of three levels. I've only actually worked out the River Spirit bloodline as used by Three Flowers, I think full details are somewhere up-topic. I have vague ideas for a wind spirit as well. For draconic bloodlines I was thinking something more subtle than scales and a breath weapon. I'm using a mix of Lung and Western dragons, but the standard chromatic/metallic dragons are converted into their function rather than colour. Blue dragons become Storm Dragons, Gold Dragons are Sun Dragons and so on. Expect abilities based on those aspects, as well as some elemental/energy resistance. River Dragon bloodline, for example, would give swim, scaly command, fiery water, something like that.

Re: crocodile nai-nek-chai. Swimming has been useful in the past, may crop up again. Looking at what's coming, not *massively* so for a while, probably.

Raging badger/wolverine barbarians.  Hmm... I'd say that if wounded whilst aready raging, there's no extra effect. I've not seen any precendent for stacked raging. However, if you end up raging because you were wounded in your animal form, that doesn't count towards your daily uses of barbarian rage.

Wisdom for shamans.  (However, I'm open to the idea of flexible casting stats, depending on casting style. So could be Charisma for someone who commands the spirits to act. Or a wizard who uses Wisdom because they follow the more intuition-based Syllabic Magic style).

I assume you mean "racial weapons", not racial races.  Hmm... sounds reasonable, although not all tlaxu races use the same weapons. Within sub-culture seems appropriate, though.

Finally, character hook:
The existing characters nominally work for the _Vashti_ of Cormondal. Vashti is an honourific peculiar to Cormondal, a priestess combining the old worship of the river as a source of life, healing and prosperity, and of the the newer reverence for the great sage Manrupashnar, a woman who taught a way of living based on humility, charity, understanding and meditation. 

The "Young Vashti", Aru Leng, has recently taken over from her revered great aunt, the "Old Vashti" who died and left a puzzle in her will for the existing characters. The temple complex, the narvinda, is a mixture of temple, orphanage, school, hospital, beguinage and traveller's hostel. The poor and sick are attended, many offer some service in return. Although many occupants are women in religious orders, this is not a requirement. many men, and many secular folk, also offere their services.

Cormondal is placed on the border of three powers. To the south, nominally in charge, is Fnoi Province, under the rule of the city of Llaza and the Merchants League. A League family, the Turifim, have a strong presence in Cormondal with the aim to re-open abandoned iron mines. Otherwise, Cormondal is almost self-governing. To the west, across the great Anhoi River, lies the fading and decandent Empire of Splendour, that looks jealously at its old holdings and nervously at the new powers occupying them. To the north, across the smaller Leng River, lies the Ashoyin Protectorate, a war-torn land where independence from the Empire was swiftly followed by prolonged civil war. Life for the average citizen in Ashoyin goes on as normal until an army descends on your village. If you are lucky, they take all your grain, livestock and anything that can be used to make weapons. If you are unlucky they kill all the young men, rape the women and burn your house down. It doesn't seem to make much difference which side they are on. 

There are many reasons to come to Cormondal - it is at a crossroads, after all. It has fallen into disrepair, but there are signs of recovery and possibilites to make money or renown. You will probably have ended up seeking the Vashti, either because you are a good-hearted soul who has heard that she needs help, or because you have done something wrong and seek to atone. There are rumours of troop movements in Ashoyin that may affect this side of the Leng, there are rumours of the Turifim having trouble with their mines, there are rumours of wolves savaging livestock in the surrounding farms. The general idea is that your characters will be the kind of people who will want to help, although I'll leave the true motivation up to you.


----------



## Neurotic

Also, consider sneak role filled if Shaddar Mar is accepted as new PC 

Did you receive Tome of Battle, Dr Simon?


EDIT: Shaddar is edited, no magic items except few potions. If Magic Item Compendium allowed I'd take Acrobatic Boots (600gp) otherwise probably quaal's feather token (tree or whip)


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## Shayuri

Hmm!

Do spirit bloodlines not grant caster levels?

And would it be redundant for a nai nek chai to have a spirit bloodline when, by the flavor text, they're already kind of spirit beings?


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## Dr Simon

Shayuri:  I'm thinking some would, some wouldn't. Generally, they probably would, being a touch of the magical world after all. Some might grant 2/3 level's worth of they had other more physical applications.

Nai-nek-chai are already spirit-touched, yes, but bloodline levels would be appropriate for those with a stronger spirit line than others. It might makes flavour sense, for example, for Annika to take Fire Spirit or something like that. I'm also considering a Beast Spirit set that enhances bestial characteristics. Nai-nek-chai would become more savage, more in tune with their animal side. Other races would become a bit like a nai-nek-chai, but without the shapechanging. Ideas and input are welcome.

Neurotic:  No, haven't got the files. Which address did you send them to?  Try psionm (at) hotmail dot com, although hotmail sometimes balks at large attachments.  Happy to allow Shaddar Mar (although the name reminds me of something evil from the Wheel of Time, can't remember what).


----------



## Dr Simon

A couple of late thoughts:

Neurotic: Improved Critical feat requires BAB 8+

Others:  Of course, another connection could be that you know one of the existing characters. Jar'Thol, in particular, is widely travelled and friendly. It's possible that he has contacted one or more of you to tell you that he needs somebody to help his friends when he goes off to attend to family business elsewhere.


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## Shayuri

I'd be interested in developing a fire spirit thing for Annika, definitely. We could also make it a 'sun' thing, for the Golden Crow affinity if it's more appropriate.

It'd be nice if it was caster-friendly, but I'd understand if I lost a CL, as long as it was for something worthwhile.

Core sorcerors are unfortunately a bit bland, so it's good to find things to spice it up. Perhaps it would be a PrC or something even.


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## Dr Simon

Just a quick thought (Enworld ate my last post)

A "Fire" Spirit would be quite physical, nimble and fast. d8 HD, good BAB, good Reflex saves, 4 skill points geared towards physical skills (Climb, Tumble etc.). Probably some stereotypical fire-based powers like Fire Resistance 5, Produce Flame etc.

A "Sun" spirit would be more geared towards radiance and rulership, as epitomised by Golden Crow. Probably d6 HD, poor BAB, good Will, caster levels at levels 2 and 3, 4 skill points with skills geared towards Charisma-bases skills, Knowledge, Speak language and some perception (Spot and Sense Motive), Maybe some SLAs at 1st and later levels such as Light, Charm Person, Protection From Netherworld. Maaybe Eagle's Splendour.


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## Neurotic

You're thinking of Shaddar Logoth and it is indeed from wheel of time. I took it as I took shadow hand discipline   I can change it to something more misty if you want.

I can transcribe all maneuvers, but I can also send you files for you to see feats and such. It is total of 55MB. I sent to wrond address  to another GM...woe is me. 

I'll send you tomorrow, I use hotmail too and all attachments are under the limit of 10MB

I replaced Improved ciritical with focused attack


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## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Shayuri:  I'm thinking some would, some wouldn't. Generally, they probably would, being a touch of the magical world after all. Some might grant 2/3 level's worth of they had other more physical applications.
> 
> Nai-nek-chai are already spirit-touched, yes, but bloodline levels would be appropriate for those with a stronger spirit line than others. It might makes flavour sense, for example, for Annika to take Fire Spirit or something like that. I'm also considering a Beast Spirit set that enhances bestial characteristics. Nai-nek-chai would become more savage, more in tune with their animal side. Other races would become a bit like a nai-nek-chai, but without the shapechanging. Ideas and input are welcome.
> 
> Neurotic:  No, haven't got the files. Which address did you send them to?  Try psionm (at) hotmail dot com, although hotmail sometimes balks at large attachments.  Happy to allow Shaddar Mar (although the name reminds me of something evil from the Wheel of Time, can't remember what).




Shadar Logoth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I thought the same thing when I saw the name, Simon.

I actually read through your entire adventure while waiting on your replies Simon, so the synopsis of the adventure wasn't needed, save the Hook at the end.  I'd been considering if I was playing a shaman-ish type character sensing a spiritual disturbance in the area(should destroying that demon cause a spiritual disturbance).

I am actually really torn atm, as I said, between Tlaxu and Nainekchai.  I like the concepts of both, and have some interesting ideas for both.  

Tlaxu monk/rogue
This character would likely have a level in his racial class as well as a level in each of the above mentioned classes, and if I took this class, I'd like to develop a style around performing unorthodox manuevers making optimal use of his claws as as a surprise manuever along with unarmed blows(perhaps special attacks involving the claws or something to that effect).  Which reminds me, do Tlaxu have claws on their feet as well as hands?  Possibly a bloodline, not sure what would be appropriate though.

Tlaxu Fighter
Again, levels in racial class over the course of time(can you tell I like those racial levels?), fairly standard character stylewise.  Might take a couple feats to improve his claws if he notices being disarmed frequently.  Nothing very unique mechanically, lol.

Nainekchai concepts(Medium animals)
Crocodile Barbarian
This character isn't particularly ignorant(as barbarians are assumed to be), and is more cunning than he would first appear, though being a darwinist.  He would use his rages rather intelligently, (I'd play it more like inducing an adrenaline rush) and use them to either drag his foes into a place where he has the edge(say drag a human to a riverbed) or attempt to crush them with his powerful tail.  When in human form he'd be a fairly upfront and blunt combatant, not seeing much point in dancing about.  (This character hinges on whether or not the crocodile can use improved grab on a medium sized creature or not. RAW I don't believe they can, but as crocodiles in the real world drag zebra under...)

Wolverine Shaman
This character is in tune with the spirits, and would prefer to use his mystical abilities in combat rather than reveal his true self to the party.  He would only transform most probably if a member was about to bite the dust or if he would be directly assaulted, moving into wolverine form and berserking(I'd assume he'd get hit fairly quickly, lol)  He'd likely be a Charisma-based Shaman.  Not commanding the spirits per se, just pointing out there'd be some consequences if they don't help him(nature getting messed up, spirit world troubles)

Leopard Rogue/Fighter
This character would make very frequent use of his animal form, staying it almost as a matter of course.  Primary tactic would be a stealth pounce(sneak up on a victim them perform a pounce while they don't recongize his presence.)  Alternate actions: Improved grab(Again, depends whether or not this is permitted on medium creatures)

Constrictor Snake Fighter
This character would actually fight differently based on form.  If in animal form, she would move to incapacitate a victim almost immediately, grappling them and pinning them down while crushing them.  Outside of that, they'd be a fairly straight forward tank.  (Again, depends on how you rule on improved grab.)

Cheetah monk
This character would be focused on speed and grace, trying to keep her foes off balance until she can finish them off.

Nainekchai concepts(small)
Viper(Tiny) Battle Sorcerer(UA variant of the sorcerer)
This character would prefer to sneak up on a foe and bite and attempt to inject it's venom(which is improved by the character's constitution if I  recall) to soften the victim up for allies before using her limited spells.  This contains an element of risk however, as she has to move INTO the victim's square.

It would appear I have a great deal of ideas for a nainekchai, but a large number of them hinge on how improved grab works.


----------



## Zenoshikage

Hello, I hope there's still room in this campaign, as Theroc told me about it today and I signed up earlier than I was originally going to so I could participate.

I was considering playing a Dog nai-nek-chai with a slight modification: The dog is instead a fox.  It will be almost identical, except replacing the survival bonus with an equal hide bonus.

Would this be alright?

By the way, this will be my first time playing a full D&D game, and my first PbP game, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity.  Theroc has agreed to help me with parts of character creation.


----------



## Blackrat

Dr Simon said:


> Happy to allow Shaddar Mar (although the name reminds me of something evil from the Wheel of Time, can't remember what).






Theroc said:


> Shadar Logoth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I thought the same thing when I saw the name, Simon.




Hmm... Well, apparently I wasn't the only one to get strange assosiations from the name, though I didn't think of WoT... I thought of cheese. For some reason I want to pronounce the name like Cheddar...


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat, now that makes me think of Cheddar Monks .  Ah yes, Shadar Logoth. So many similar-sounding names in those books I get lost, especially as I read them once, several years ago.

Zenoshikage, that makes six PCs, that's okay with me, and fine with your proposed changes.  In which case, perhaps Theroc you'd be best playing one of your tlaxu choices so that we don't have too many nai-nek-chai. Thinking about it, I'd quite like it if somebody took the shaman class to continue play-testing from where Rolling Man left off, but that's up to you guys.


----------



## Blackrat

Dr Simon said:


> Blackrat, now that makes me think of Cheddar Monks .




Yes, that was the next step on my line of thoughts too . I love that comic...


----------



## Theroc

Simon, did you see my question about improved grab?  The skill seems almost useless according to the SRD I read.

Special Abilities :: d20srd.org

Most monsters one fights are usually medium size or larger.  Not a particularly useful (Ex) unless some of those entries should state otherwise.

Just wondering as I was liking several of the ideas.  If this is a no, I'll narrow it down to my Nai-nek-Chai Wolverine Shaman or a Tlaxu Shaman/Monk(Maybe some later levels in rogue).

If I am choosing a Tlaxu, is there any chance you can answer my style questions?  What types of styles would be available to a Tlaxu monk?  Personally I was thinking of unarmed strikes that incorporate the Tlaxu's natural weapons.  I'm not sure what sorts of things you'd like me to go for, but basically the shaman/monk would be like Bruce Lee in melee, in the sense of his philosphy before he died.  "Flow like Water."  Basically emphasizing economy of motion.  Any ideas?

Little quote from Bruce Lee about his style:
"Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend."

I'd like that to be the basis of my Monk's style....

Edit: I believe Zenos intends to work on a "Paladin of Truth" with his Nai-nek-Chai, so my character would be leaning more towards spellcasting(unless that's also stepping on toes.)


----------



## Dr Simon

I'm going to have to go with the RAW as far as improved grab goes, I'm afraid. I can't see any precedent to do otherwise. If you wanted a monkish style based on grappling, though, I could work something out.

I hadn't really thought of the tlaxu as having any fighting styles in the Imperial sense, although the Mopendor tlaxu may well have developed some in response to Imperial ideas. However:

Some thoughts on a style based upon adaptability and minimal resistance:

1st level skill bonus: Tumble
1st level feat: Dodge
2nd level feat: Combat Expertise
6th level feat: Modify Combat Style
6th level bonus ability: May make an immediate AoO against opponent who misses, if you have used Dodge against that opponent.
Prerequisites: Spot 9 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks.

(From Arcana Evolved):
*Modify Combat Style* [General]
You can adapt your combat moves to counter an opponent’s style.
*Prerequisite*: Base attack bonus +7 (ignore for monk bonus)
*Benefit*: The character spends a full round in melee with an
opponent, then makes a Spot check (DC = 10+ the opponent’s attack
bonus). If the character succeeds, she spots a weakness in the
foe’s combat style and modifies her own style to take advantage
of it. The character gains a +2 competence bonus to attack rolls
against the foe for the rest of that combat session.


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## Zenoshikage

> (where you can have champions of freedom, justice, life, death, light, darkness, knowledge etc.)




Hmm a paladin of knowledge sounds cool.  I shall see out the knowledge of all subjects.  Those who conceal knowledge shall feel my wraith.


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## Shayuri

Simon, I think I need a little help with Annika's sheet.

For one, I'm sure her hit points are wrong. I haven't gotten Grace and Health split out, for one. For two, I don't think I asked you to roll for her on either 2nd or 3rd levels. Doop.

Finally, I have completely lost track of what "loot" was gained in our last adventures, and how much of it was hers.

Oh, also...can we work out a system about what items she retains on her person when she changes, and what items fall off? And perhaps arrange some kind of magic that will mitigate that, like the Wild enhancement for armor for druids and so on...


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> I'm going to have to go with the RAW as far as improved grab goes, I'm afraid. I can't see any precedent to do otherwise. If you wanted a monkish style based on grappling, though, I could work something out.
> 
> I hadn't really thought of the tlaxu as having any fighting styles in the Imperial sense, although the Mopendor tlaxu may well have developed some in response to Imperial ideas. However:
> 
> Some thoughts on a style based upon adaptability and minimal resistance:
> 
> 1st level skill bonus: Tumble
> 1st level feat: Dodge
> 2nd level feat: Combat Expertise
> 6th level feat: Modify Combat Style
> 6th level bonus ability: May make an immediate AoO against opponent who misses, if you have used Dodge against that opponent.
> Prerequisites: Spot 9 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks.
> 
> (From Arcana Evolved):
> *Modify Combat Style* [General]
> You can adapt your combat moves to counter an opponent’s style.
> *Prerequisite*: Base attack bonus +7 (ignore for monk bonus)
> *Benefit*: The character spends a full round in melee with an
> opponent, then makes a Spot check (DC = 10+ the opponent’s attack
> bonus). If the character succeeds, she spots a weakness in the
> foe’s combat style and modifies her own style to take advantage
> of it. The character gains a +2 competence bonus to attack rolls
> against the foe for the rest of that combat session.




Okay, as far as the improved grab argument, the only thing that came to my mind(as a relatively new player to D&D myself) was that logically crocodiles often drag creatures like zebra(not much smaller than the croc itself) into the water.  Same thing with the Constrictor snake, and it seems non-sensical to me for a Leopard to be unable to rake a larger foe, as that would make it seem more logical for claw to find purchase.  But that's more of a logic argument than a balance argument.

Monk Style seems good.  Wondering though, would it possible for us to make a feat for my Tlexu to take that allows him to use his claws along with his unarmed attacks?  (Dragon Magazine released a feat along these lines once; It can be found in Crystalkeeps feat area, under Shifter feats)

"Beast Strike
Req: Improved Unarmed Strike, BAB+6, Claw or Slam attack
When making an Unarmed Strike or Grapple check to deal damage, add your Claw or Slam damage" - DR 355 pg 76

Would it be possible for this feat to be available for my Tlaxu Shmonk?

Another question: Are Shaman limited to their Domains as far as spell selection is concerned?


----------



## Dr Simon

Shay:  Annika should have 21 points of Health (Con, plus 3x Con bonus, plus 3x1). Grace would be 4 plus 2d4, which I can roll for you, to set things up properly.

I've added Loot to the first post in this thread. Looks like I need to hand more out...

Will consider options for keeping things. I think there's shapeshifter armour in Oriental Adventures, or perhaps Arcana Evolved, I'll have a look. 

Theroc:  That feat seems reasonable. I don't think it would fit the progression of that particular fighting style, but you can take it as a regular feat, or we can devise a variant style based upon the use of claws. Plains and Mopendine tlaxu tend to consider the use of claws to be distasteful and primative, mountain tlaxu always ritually purify them before fighting or hunting. Doesn't rule out the existence of a group that has made an art of using them, though. Could be an interesting angle.

Improved grab was probably meant for things with tentacles and/or giant mouths, so its illogical nature when applied to normal animals is probably a holdover from that.

Shamans can only cast spells from their domains, so they'd have a choice of four 1st level spells to cast from. They work a bit like sorcerers, really.


----------



## Shayuri

Arr, well, I'm more concerned about other items than I am about armor in particular.

Maybe something like a Wilding Clasp...or a special bag of holding that I can will my stuff into just before changing, and which will vanish while nonhuman or that the eagle can carry on a little harness or something... Basically, characters at higher levels tend to wear/carry a lot of stuff, and it'll make changing forms an incredible PITA if it just falls off onto the ground.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Shay:  Annika should have 21 points of Health (Con, plus 3x Con bonus, plus 3x1). Grace would be 4 plus 2d4, which I can roll for you, to set things up properly.
> 
> I've added Loot to the first post in this thread. Looks like I need to hand more out...
> 
> Will consider options for keeping things. I think there's shapeshifter armour in Oriental Adventures, or perhaps Arcana Evolved, I'll have a look.
> 
> Theroc:  That feat seems reasonable. I don't think it would fit the progression of that particular fighting style, but you can take it as a regular feat, or we can devise a variant style based upon the use of claws. Plains and Mopendine tlaxu tend to consider the use of claws to be distasteful and primative, mountain tlaxu always ritually purify them before fighting or hunting. Doesn't rule out the existence of a group that has made an art of using them, though. Could be an interesting angle.
> 
> Improved grab was probably meant for things with tentacles and/or giant mouths, so its illogical nature when applied to normal animals is probably a holdover from that.
> 
> Shamans can only cast spells from their domains, so they'd have a choice of four 1st level spells to cast from. They work a bit like sorcerers, really.




Do Shamans have access to all Orisons?  Or is a Shaman forced to weave their level 0 slots upward for more spellcasting?

Also, I hadn't intended to the Beast Strike to be used in the monk progression, it would be something my character himself develops as he goes along.

Also, you said we can multiclass without penalty: Does this also apply to the Portion of both Paladin and Monk that say they cannot go back to the class if they multiclass away from it?


----------



## Dr Simon

Shay, sounds okay to me.  I would imagine that there was once a famous nai-nek-chai hero who developed something like that, or perhaps the volkolaki of Vaarta have such devices.

Edit: I rolled 2d4 hit points for Annika and got ... 3.



Theroc said:


> Do Shamans have access to all Orisons?  Or is a Shaman forced to weave their level 0 slots upward for more spellcasting?




Shamans have the druid 0 level spell list.



Theroc said:


> Also, I hadn't intended to the Beast Strike to be used in the monk progression, it would be something my character himself develops as he goes along.




No problem.



Theroc said:


> Also, you said we can multiclass without penalty: Does this also apply to the Portion of both Paladin and Monk that say they cannot go back to the class if they multiclass away from it?




Yes.


----------



## Neurotic

When do we start?


----------



## Shayuri

...ouch. Annika is a fragile soul, isn't she?

Oh well. I'll try to keep her out of trouble.


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic said:


> When do we start?




Well, waiting for Theroc, Tialis and Zenos to create their characters. I'm away over the weekend, so I'm going to say that people should have their characters ready for next Tuesday.

Looking at how little treasure has been handed out, I think to be fair I'm going to limit the amount of cash for the new characters to maximum starting gold plus 300 gp. (Convert remaining coins to yen by multiplying by 100).


----------



## Theroc

Well, Zenos is having trouble settling on a class.  At the moment I think he's planning on taking up the caster role as a Cleric 1/Shaman 2 Fox nai-nek-chai.

Since he's switching primary focus on me, what I'm doing is somewhat up in the air.

I have been debating whether I should go with a more melee based Nai-nek-Chai(Probably with the Beast bloodline you mention).  Also wondering about that beast bloodline.  Any chance one of those levels gives the animals the "Powerful Build" as the Half-giant in the SRD?  Psionic Races :: d20srd.org

I was thinking of a Monk/Rogue character Tlaxu, but looking at the BAB, I'm thinking I might have trouble hitting consistently unless I have some sort of bracer I can use to up my attack rolls... bear in mind, I haven't actually played D&D in any extended capacity, so my knowledge is theoretical and based on research on these boards primarily.

Character concepts at this point in time:
Tlaxu monk
His style is mostly based on flowing out of his opponents attacks and then flooding in to strike once he's found an opening to strike.  Debating whether I want to multiclass atm.  Know I will be taking levels in racial class though.  He'll also be somewhat attuned to the idea of spirits, having heard rumors some of his people can see them plain as day.

Nai-nek-chai Concepts
Cheetah Nai-nek-chai Monk
Very effective sprinter, tends to favor helping an ally flank and trip up an adversary and generally harass.

Leopard Nai-nek-chai Rogue
This character would tend to want to pounce from stealth, opening combat up with a hopefully crippling blow early on.  May want to reskin the animal to a tiger, but it'd be a purely aesthetic difference.

I have a question: I understand following RAW on improved grab, but if the Beast Spirit doesn't grant something akin to Powerful Build, would it be possible to make a homebrew feat to accomplish it?  Something like:

"Greater Grab:
Prerequisites: Improved Grab, BAB +5, Natural weapon
For the purposes of Improved Grab, the character counts as a category size larger than they actually are."

Don't know how the BAB would work, but in any case there it is.

Anyways, Debating whether I'd want to take that Beast Spirit bloodline or a dragon one.  Beast Spirit would definitely work well for my Nai-nek-chai characters, and for my Tlaxu depending on what benefits it bestows.

Is there any chance on fleshing out what that does at some point?  I like dragons too, but not going to ask you to work out all the dragon bloodlines... that'd be mean.

Sorry if I seem indecisive, it's just this setting has so many choices I like, and seeing as my opportunity to select them is smaller than other such things(most campaigns are NOT set in this world), I am having troubles deciding.  (Especially since Zenos can't seem to make up his mind and keeps switching archetypes on me, so I can't fill a gap since I don't know which is the gap.)


----------



## Neurotic

Take improved natural attack it gives you effective size increase and grab with natural weapons is also an attack. I don't think it to be too great a strecth to give size bonus for grabbing.


----------



## Shayuri

Er...wait wait. 

Improved Natural Attack increases the damage of one natural attack as if one size higher. A grapple is neither a "natural attack" (which is very specifically defined in 3.5e) nor does it do damage in and of itself (though you can do damage IN a grapple, once it's been established), and is therefore ineligble for that feat.

I'm not sure I'm getting the problem here. A size level of difference results in a +4 grapple bonus to the larger. Just take Improved Grapple. The bonus from that is identical. A medium creature with Improved Grapple is at effectively no disadvantage against a large creature that lacks it.

Isn't that what you're looking for?


----------



## Theroc

Neurotic said:


> Take improved natural attack it gives you effective size increase and grab with natural weapons is also an attack. I don't think it to be too great a strecth to give size bonus for grabbing.




Well, SRD says damage increases as if the size was greater, doesn't actually make it greater.  But if Simon would allow Improved Natural attack to enable improved grab, that'd be awesome.


----------



## Theroc

Shayuri said:


> Er...wait wait.
> 
> Improved Natural Attack increases the damage of one natural attack as if one size higher. A grapple is neither a "natural attack" (which is very specifically defined in 3.5e) nor does it do damage in and of itself (though you can do damage IN a grapple, once it's been established), and is therefore ineligble for that feat.
> 
> I'm not sure I'm getting the problem here. A size level of difference results in a +4 grapple bonus to the larger. Just take Improved Grapple. The bonus from that is identical. A medium creature with Improved Grapple is at effectively no disadvantage against a large creature that lacks it.
> 
> Isn't that what you're looking for?




Shayuri, what I was looking for was allowing "Improved Grab(not grapple... significant difference here)" to be usable with a medium sized Nai-Nek-Chai animal form against a medium sized opponent.  

Special Abilities :: d20srd.org

"Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature."

This ability is attached to several medium sized animals a Nai-Nek-Chai can transform into.


----------



## Shayuri

Ahhh, my bad.

Well, there's Small critters in this game. Heck, some Small PC races.

Or maybe you can get the shaman to cast Animal Growth on you.


----------



## Theroc

Shayuri said:


> Ahhh, my bad.
> 
> Well, there's Small critters in this game. Heck, some Small PC races.
> 
> Or maybe you can get the shaman to cast Animal Growth on you.




Eh... true, but I dislike relying on someone else to use my primary attack method on a foe.  That's why I was hoping for some form of feat or effect or Bloodline that would enable it.  But without those, I won't concern myself with the improved grab based concepts, which narrows my list(as awesome as I think the grab concept would be for crowd control)


----------



## Neurotic

Also, Theroc, you don't have to wait on zenos. You make your char from one of the concepts and let HIM fill the other role.


----------



## Theroc

Neurotic said:


> Also, Theroc, you don't have to wait on zenos. You make your char from one of the concepts and let HIM fill the other role.






I could, but any of the ideas work for me overall, and I'd rather not stick him if he has one he'd rather do.


----------



## Theroc

Hm... I believe if Simon's already away for the weekend, I'll attempt to roll up a character sheet for each of my concepts(including a few that use the improved grab) depending on what Simon decides for feats/Bloodlines and the like.


----------



## Dr Simon

Improved Natural Attack increases damage, nothing else.

The Improved Grab ability gives you the opportunity to initiate a grapple with an attack that also causes damages, a standard melee attack. Normal grappling requires an attack, but the first one is just a touch attack that causes no damage (to grab hold). So you can still grapple a Medium opponent, just not cause damage with that first strike.

Given the requirements for that homebrew feat, I don't _think_ it's a deal-breaker. I'd remove the BAB requirements, really. 

Re: Rogue/Monk. At 3rd level, that build would be BAB +1, but you could augment your chance to hit with a high Strength and Weapon Focus (or a high Dexterity, Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus). Plus a reliance on terrain or teamwork.

Beast Spirit Bloodline:  Wouldn't have Powerful Build, no, nor any bonus to grappling/grabbing as this would not be appropriate to all beasts. Probably more along the lines of improved natural armour, improved natural weapons, raised Strength and Dex and increased senses.


----------



## Theroc

Alrighty, couple more questions:
For character creation: Do we need you to roll for level 2&3 as we generate?  Also, are you still using the Grace/Health variant?

Working on a T'laxu Monk and a couple Nai-nek-chai.

I've realized I've a heavy preference towards the Nai-nek-Chai, probably primarily due to issues with Multiple Ability Dependency making my monk concept difficult to work on... though I've a rought draft mostly finished. 

Tzin Soo's not prettified character sheet.
[sblock]


		Code:
	

[B]Name:[/B] Tzin Soo
[B]Class:[/B] Monk 2/Tlaxu 1
[B]Race:[/B] Tlaxu
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Male

[B]Str:[/B] 13 +1 (04p.)     [B]Level:[/B] 3        [B]XP:[/B] XXXX
[B]Dex:[/B] 15 +2 (06p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +2         [B]HP:[/B] XXX (XdX+XX)
[B]Con:[/B] 14 +2 (06p.)     [B]Grapple:[/B] +4     [B]Dmg Red:[/B] None
[B]Int:[/B] 13 +1 (05p.)     [B]Speed:[/B] 30'      [B]Spell Res:[/B] XX
[B]Wis:[/B] 15 +2 (05p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +2        [B]Spell Save:[/B] +X
[B]Cha:[/B] 08 -1 (00p.)     [B]ACP:[/B] -0         [B]Spell Fail:[/B] XX%

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +0    +0    +2    +0    +0    +1    13
[B]Touch:[/B] 13              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 10

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                      3    +2          =5
[B]Ref:[/B]                       5    +2          =7
[B]Will:[/B]                      3    +1          =4

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
Claws(x2)                 +3     1d4+2      20-20x2
Unarmed                   +3     1d6+2      20-20x2
Kama                      +3     1d6+2      20-20x2
Throwing Stick(x2)        +4     1d4+1      20-20x3
Shortspear(x3)            +4     1d6+1      20-20x3


[B]Languages:[/B] Low Imperial, Tlaxan, High Imperial

[B]Abilities:[/B] 
Low Light Visions
+2 racial bonus to Listen, Spot, Search and Sense Motive
checks, and to Survival checks for the purposes
of tracking.
+2 bonus to climb checks when using claws
Scent
Tzun Soo Style Martial Arts(Monk bonus feat track)

[B]Feats:[/B]
Dodge(Monk Bonus)
Combat Expertise(Monk Bonus)
Improved Unarmed (Monk Bonus)
Flurry of Blows(Monk Bonus)
Defensive Strike
Mobility


[B]Skill Points:[/B] 28       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 6/3
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Jump                       4    +1       +0    =5
Balance                    2    +2       +0    =4
Climb                      2    +1       +0    =3
Concentration              2    +2       +0    =4
Escape Artist              2    +2       +0    =4
Hide                       2    +2       +0    =4
Knwdge(Arcana)             1    +1       +0    =2
Knwgde(Religion)           1    +1       +0    =2
Listen                     2    +2       +2    =6
Move Silently              2    +2       +0    =4
Sense Motive               2    +2       +2    =6
Spot                       2    +2       +2    =6
Swim                       2    +1       +0    =3
Tumble                     2    +2       +0    =4



[B]Equipment:               Cost  Weight[/B]
Kama                     02gp   02lb
Throwing Stick(x2)       66gp   0.4lb
Shortspear(x3)           03gp   09lb
XXXX                     XXgp   XXlb
[B]Total Weight:[/B]XXlb      [B]Money:[/B] 229gp XXsp XXcp

                           [B]Lgt   Med   Hvy  Lift  Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]               XXX   XXX   XXX   XXX   XXX

[B]Age:[/B] XX
[B]Height:[/B] X'XX"
[B]Weight:[/B] XXXlb
[B]Eyes:[/B] XXXX
[B]Hair:[/B] XXXX
[B]Skin:[/B] XXXX

*Appearance:* XXXX

*Background:* XXXX[/sblock]

Will whip up two other concepts.  I'm currently opting towards a more melee bent since I am still thinking Zenos is going caster, and because I believe Neurotic has 'sneak' down.

Ideas to be done hopefully tomorrow:
Nai-Nek-Chai Barbarian (Crocodile)
Nai-Nek-Chai Rogue (Leopard)

Question: Are the Unearthed Arcana Variant classes available?


----------



## Dr Simon

Unearthed Arcana variants: yes.

Hit points: you can use Invisible Castle if you like. At the moment I'm still using Grace/Health variant, may change my mind on that in the future.

Rough Draft for Beast Spirit Bloodline levels:

Good BAB, Good Fort and Ref, 2 skill points (Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently,  Spot, Survival,  Swim).
5 levels. 
Levels 1, 3 and 5 - "Beast Ability", choose one from claw attack, bite attack, natural armour +1, +10 ft. movement rate, low-light vision, others...
Levels 2, 4 and 5 - "Beast Feat" - choose from Improved Natural Attack, Improved Natural Armour, Endurance, Diehard, Run, Alertness, Agile, Stealthy, Track, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude.

This gives a great deal of flexibility, allows it to be useful for non-shapechangers and doesn't pin it down to one particular animal. May replace level 5 "Beast Ability" with "Greater Beast Ability" with such things as wings, poison, rage and so on.


----------



## Theroc

I'm really liking those.  Question though: If one of those traits are taken, and the character already has it, what happens?  Also, if a Nai-Nek-Chai goes through the class, would the class granted bonuses apply to both forms?

I.e. Nai nek Chai chooses +1 natural armor.  Will that bonus persist?  What if it chose a bite attack and it's animal form already had one?

I realize this isn't restricted to the shapechangers, but I am curious how it would interact.

Additionally; the +10 ft. movement.  Is that to all modes of travel available to the character, or only basic land speed?

Greater beast ability sounds good.  What hit dice does the Beast bloodline grant?


----------



## Neurotic

Err, what is Grace/Health variant and where can one find reference to it?


----------



## Theroc

Neurotic said:


> Err, what is Grace/Health variant and where can one find reference to it?




http://www.enworld.org/forum/talking-talk/255104-recruiting-fall-zathas.html
Check his "Playing the Game" section; he described the grace/health variant so players without the source material can play.

The major difference is the HP from hit dice recover faster naturally.


----------



## Theroc

Question: Could a nai-nek-chai in animal form use barding?


----------



## Theroc

Shakou(Nainekchai Leopard Rogue)

[sblock]


		Code:
	

[B]Name:[/B] Shakou
[B]Class:[/B] Rogue 3
[B]Race:[/B] Nai Nek Chai
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Female

[B]Str:[/B] 10 +0 (02p.)     [B]Level:[/B] 3        [B]XP:[/B] XXXX
[B]Dex:[/B] 16 +3 (10p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +2         [B]HP:[/B] 38 (23 Health, 15 Grace)
[B]Con:[/B] 14 +2 (06p.)     [B]Grapple:[/B] +2     [B]Dmg Red:[/B] XX/XXXX
[B]Int:[/B] 12 +1 (06p.)     [B]Speed:[/B] 30'      [B]Spell Res:[/B] XX
[B]Wis:[/B] 10 +0 (00p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +3        [B]Spell Save:[/B] +X
[B]Cha:[/B] 12 +1 (04p.)     [B]ACP:[/B] -0         [B]Spell Fail:[/B] XX%

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +0    +0    +3    +0    +0    +0    13
[B]Touch:[/B] 13              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 10

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                      1    +2         =3
[B]Ref:[/B]                       3    +3         =6
[B]Will:[/B]                      1    +0         =1

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
Bite                      +2     1d6+0      20-20x2
Claw(x2)                  +2     1d3+0      20-20x2
shortswords(x2)           +2     1d6+0      19-20x2
MW Shortbow               +6     1d6+1      20-20x2

[B]Languages:[/B] Low Imperial, High Imperial

[B]Abilities:[/B]
Shapechanger Subtype
Animal Blood: Is affected by effects that target animals
Low Light Vision
Animal form

[B]Feats:[/B]
Medium Animal form
Animal Voice


[B]Skill Points:[/B] 36       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 6/3
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Bluff                      5    +1    +0    =7
Disable Device             2    +1    +0    =3
Listen                     2    +0    +0    =2
Move Silently              6    +3    +0    =9
Hide                       6    +3    +0    =9
Spot                       3    +0    +0    =3
Use Magic Device           1    +1    +0    =3
Tumble                     5    +3    +2    =10
Jump                       5    +0    +2    =7
Perform(Dance)             1    +1    +0    =2


[B]Equipment:               Cost  Weight[/B]
Thieves Tools            30gp   01lb
Shortswords(x2)          20gp   04lb
MW Shortbow              30gp   02lb
Arrows(x40)              02gp   06lb
Backpack                 02gp   02lb
Rations(x5)              25sp   05lb
Waterskin(x2)            02gp   08lb
Yen                          -       02lb
                    
[B]Total Weight:[/B]30lb      [B]Money:[/B] 113gp 75sp XXcp

                           [B]Lgt   Medium   Heavy  Lift  Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]               33lb   34-66   67-100   200   500

[B]Age:[/B] 21
[B]Height:[/B] 4'11"
[B]Weight:[/B] 125lb
[B]Eyes:[/B] Amber
[B]Hair:[/B] Orange with black streaks
[B]Skin:[/B] Pale

*Appearance:* XXXX

*Background:* XXXX[/sblock]
IC rolls:
Roll Lookup

HP calculation:6HD(+2CON)+3HD(+2CON)+6HD(+2CON)+14CONscore=35
Health: 20 
Grace: 15 
+1 Health per level
Health:23
Grace 15
Total HP: 38

Edit note:
I'm going to go harass Zenos to start working on his character, as he lives about 3 blocks from where I do.  So, hopefully I can get him working on it.


----------



## Dr Simon

Answers:

Could a nai-nek-chai use barding?  Yes, but it'd need somebody to put it on for it once in animal form.

Animal Traits from Beast Spirit Bloodline:  I figure that the +1 natural armour would apply in all forms, additive with any existing natural armour. Abilities like bite or claws, however, would not be additive. You'd get a bite attack in your human form, but it wouldn't affect bite attack in an animal form (although if the animal form doesn't normally have a bite attack, it would now).

Hit die for Beast Spirit; d8

Movement bonus: probably just ground-based. I'll get back on that.

Grace/Health should be in the first post of this thread too - see the Houserules spoiler block. It's from Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might. Health comes from Con and Con bonus, Grace is from class/race hit die and recovers more quickly. It diminishes the need for a party healer and enables parties to get through more encounters before resting (coupled also with the spell-slot weaving rules), plus I can put in more interesting monsters than rats and kobolds for low-level characters!


----------



## Neurotic

Yeah, I saw that, but it is different. We use house rules then, not by-the-book grace/health, right?

Also, with maximum starting wealth + 300, you mean we have around 320 to spend not 2700, so no magic or even masterwork items. Correct?


----------



## Dr Simon

Grace/Health - *should* be the same as BOXM, since I think I just copy/pasted it. Well, if in doubt use the one at the start of the thread.

Re: Starting gold - yep, as little as that. Guess I'm a big skinflint!  Although I'd have thought you'd have more than 20 gp for starting wealth...(Checks...) Yeah, for Swordage 4d4x10 would give a maximum of 160 gp, so 460 gp in total.


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic: Had a look over Shaddar Mar's character sheet. Looks okay to me, although you'll need to downgrade his equipment to reflect the measly amount of treasure.  I notice that you have 9 maneuvres known, when there should only be 8. For hit points, I make it 38 in total (18 Health, 20 Grace). Health equals Con score (12) plus Con bonus for each level (3* +1) plus one per level (3* +1). Grace is class hit die, thus 3d8. First level is maximum hit points (8) and then I rolled a 12 on 2d8. 

Theroc: Both concepts looks good so far, Shakou comes out looking pretty cool, I think. Don't forget that you get your initial Health includes the Constitution score as well (so add another 14).


----------



## Zenoshikage

Gengoro *Nai-nek-cha*(Dog "Fox")
*Class:* Cleric 3*Race:* *Nai-nek-cha**Size:* medium*Gender:* Male *Str:* 10         *Level:* 3        *XP:* *Dex:* 10         *BAB:* 2          *HP:* 14*Con:* 10         *Grapple:* +2     *Int:* 14         *Speed:* 30'       *Wis**:* 18         *Init:* +0        *Cha:* 10         *ACP:* ? 
Domains: Healing Trickery 
Energy: Positive [Healing / Turns Undead]
*Base  Armor Shld  Dex  Size  Nat   Misc   Total**Armor:*             10    +2   +0    +0    +0    +0    +0      12*Touch:* 10              *Flatfooted:* 12                          *Base   Mod  Misc   Total**Fort:*                      3    +0    +0     +3*Ref:*                       1    +0    +0     +1*Will:*                      3    +4    +0     +7 *Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical*Dagger                           1d3       19-20/x2 *Languages:* Common, Dark_Elf_Silent, Gnoll *Abilities:*Shapechanger SubtypeAnimal Blood: Is affected by effects that target animalsLow Light VisionAnimal form *Feats:*Medium Animal formAnimal Voice *Skill Points:* 58       *Max Ranks:**Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc   Total*Disguise                  4        2           +6Hide                    4        0           +4Heal                    6        4           +10Spellcraft                        6        2           +8Bluff                   4        0           +4  
Gengoro's Equipment:
16 lb

  2 lb
  1 lb

  2 lb
  _____
  21 lb​ Weapons / Armor / Shield   (from above)
Bell
  Manacles x1
  Mirror
  Signal whistle
  Spell component pouch

  Total
*Lgt   Med    Hvy    Lift  Push**Max Weight:* 33 34-66     67-100 200 500


----------



## Zenoshikage

What The hell?  I don't know why it posted it like that and I don't know how to fix it.


----------



## Theroc

Zenoshikage said:


> What The hell?  I don't know why it posted it like that and I don't know how to fix it.






You used that character generator I showed you and tried to copy/paste, didn't you?

Yeah... that doesn't work at all...


----------



## Theroc

The Croc Barb.

[sblock]
	
	




		Code:
	

[B]Name:[/B] Ironjaw
[B]Class:[/B] Barbarian 3
[B]Race:[/B] Nai Nek Chai
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Male

[B]Str:[/B] 16 +3 (10p.)     [B]Level:[/B] 3        [B]XP:[/B] XXXX
[B]Dex:[/B] 14 +2 (06p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +3         [B]HP:[/B] XXX (XdX+XX)
[B]Con:[/B] 14 +2 (06p.)     [B]Grapple:[/B] +6     [B]Dmg Red:[/B] XX/XXXX
[B]Int:[/B] 12 +1 (06p.)     [B]Speed:[/B] 30'      [B]Spell Res:[/B] XX
[B]Wis:[/B] 10 +0 (00p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +2        [B]Spell Save:[/B] +X
[B]Cha:[/B] 08 -1 (00p.)     [B]ACP:[/B] -2         [B]Spell Fail:[/B] XX%

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +4    +0    +2    +0    +0    +0    16
[B]Touch:[/B] 12              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 14

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                      3    +3       =6
[B]Ref:[/B]                       1    +2       =3
[B]Will:[/B]                      1    +0       =1

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
Falchion                  +6     2d4+4      18-20x2
Cmp(+2)Longbow            +5     1d8+2      20-20x3
XXXX                      +X     XdXX+X     XX-XXxX
XXXX                      +X     XdXX+X     XX-XXxX

[B]Languages:[/B] Low Imperial, High Imperial

[B]Abilities:[/B] 
Shapechanger
Animal Blood: Counts as Humanoid and Animal for special effects
Low Light Vision
Animal Form

[B]Feats:[/B] 
Medium Animal Form
Greater Grab
^(Counts as an extra size category for the purposes of grab)

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 30       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 6/3
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Climb                        2     +3    -2    =3
Handle Animal                2     -1    +X    =1
Intimidate                   6     -1    +X    =5
Ride                         3     +2    +X    =5
Swim                         2     +3    -4    =1
Listen                       5     +0    +X    =5
Survival                     5     +0    +X    =5
Jump                         5     +3    -2    =6


[B]Equipment:               Cost  Weight[/B]
Falchion                 75gp   08lb
+2 RatedCmpste Lngbow    300gp  03lb
XXXX                     XXgp   XXlb
XXXX                     XXgp   XXlb
[B]Total Weight:[/B]11lb      [B]Money:[/B] 85gp XXsp XXcp

                           [B]Light   Medium   Heavy  Lift  Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]               76   77-153   154-230   460   1150

[B]Age:[/B] 27
[B]Height:[/B] 6'05"
[B]Weight:[/B] 205lb
[B]Eyes:[/B] Brown
[B]Hair:[/B] Blonde, with the slightest green tinge.
[B]Skin:[/B] Somewhat dry, almost cracked looking in places... rough.

*Appearance:* XXXX

*Background:* XXXX[/sblock]

Roll Lookup
HP Calculation
Total HP: 14(CONscore)+12HD+2(CON)+10HD+2(CON)+7HD+2(CON)=49 HP
Grace HP: 29
Health HP: 20


----------



## Dr Simon

Theroc, Ironjaw looks fine, although we said that Greater Grab needed Improved Grapple as a prerequisite, so maybe swap that over.

Zenos, I would say for a fox nai-nek-chai you'd use the small dog stats, not the medium, so you wouldn't need the Medium Animal Form feat. Also you'll need to swap some languages as there aren't Dark Elves or Gnolls in this setting. I'd suggest Tlaxan for Gnoll if you want a "beast-man" language. Maybe Spiritspeech instead of the Dark Elf Silent, that will allow you to converse with most creatures of the Netherworld.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Theroc, Ironjaw looks fine, although we said that Greater Grab needed Improved Grapple as a prerequisite, so maybe swap that over.
> 
> Zenos, I would say for a fox nai-nek-chai you'd use the small dog stats, not the medium, so you wouldn't need the Medium Animal Form feat. Also you'll need to swap some languages as there aren't Dark Elves or Gnolls in this setting. I'd suggest Tlaxan for Gnoll if you want a "beast-man" language. Maybe Spiritspeech instead of the Dark Elf Silent, that will allow you to converse with most creatures of the Netherworld.




I listed 'Improved Grab' and 'natural weapon' as the prerequisites.  Did you add Improved Grapple on there?  If so, my mistake.

However, at the moment, I'm leaning towards Shakou anyway.

Does anyone think any of the characters fit the setting/party better than others?


----------



## Dr Simon

I probably misread Improved Grab for Improved Grapple. Improved Grab is kind of a given, as the feat is useless without it. But then, Improved Grapple requires Improved Unarmed Attack, unless you are a monk, and I don't think Greater Grab is powerful enough for two feat prerequisites (three, really, as it's useless without Medium Animal Form). I'll go with it as is, for the moment. If it turns out to be monstrously overpowered I may reconsider but, as this is a playtest game anyway...

As for picking a character, I think any would fit. Ironjaw might provide some needed frontline muscle, but the other two are quite a good mix of combat and stealth, and the rogue doesn't overlap too much with Zenos' cleric since she has "item" and "acrobat" skills as well as stealth.

Probably comes down to personality. I'm thinking that Shaddar Mar can be bought in through knowing Jar'Thol (as all salsham'ai seem to know each other), you and Zenos as characters who have arrived to offer service to the Vashti for reasons of your own. As the two of you know each other, we could extend the same relationship to your characters, who may have arrived together.


----------



## Neurotic

Yes, we may know each other, but I don't think it would be realy friendly relationship. Shaddar (I'm considering changing the name to somethin more mist like with translation along the lines of Mist tendrils reach into the soul) - his parents story would then include traveling through mistwraith country and being touched by them.

Shaddar considers shamans too peaceful and holding salsham'ai back instead of spreading them over the world keeping humans with their destruction in check. Also, his connection to spirit world is somewhat lacking (he was initiate that was deamed unworthy or untrustworthy by local shaman, he is cold toward them. And considers path of swordsage, detached and focused on perfecting self, better way. By mastering yourself, you will master the world!

How would name Mystal Marr sound?

The contact with Jar'Thol could be:
- Jar'Thol was his successor initate shaman with Susar or guest for extended period
- he is recomended by someone else OR
- Jar'Thol knows him as one other the Old Vashti helped and he worked for her

Shaddar takes the role of stealthy scout and mobile combatant (not frontliner)


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic: new name is okay with me. 

As for his acquaintance with Jar'Thol, they may have met before but I was thinking of something along these lines:  there's only a small number of salsham'ai in Cormondal. Salsham'ai tend to get to help out their own kind. Jar'Thol may be aware of Mystal and, seeing him for an adventuring type, put him forward as a competent replacement when Jar'Thol has to depart to tend to some important family business.


----------



## Neurotic

Np.


----------



## Theroc

If my character and Zenos are going to know each other, our best bet would be me playing Shakou, as Zenos is a Cleric of Trickery and Healing.  Ironjaw wouldn't have the patience or inclination to deal with a trickster, and Tzin Soo would feel it beneath him to participate in such activities.

Shakou, however... would likely be a partner in crime.

Basic idea is somewhat akin to Dragonheart, if you've seen it.

Gengoro travels from village to village, retelling stories he's heard of an angry Leopard(or Tiger, haven't decided whether I want to make Shakou a tiger[without changing numbers]) spirit who had done terrible things and was ready to attack the town, and sometime while Gengoro was there, Shakou 'attacks' the town in Leopard form, only to be 'defeated/exorcised' by Gengoro.

The village in gratitude would of course give free meals/yen/etc... and Shakou would slip away and come back later in human form to reap the benefits of their labor.

Things to hook the pair to the main party: Shakou and Gengoro attempt to scam the party(Party beats Shakou senseless), Party discover Shakou and Gengoro's con and confront them, publicly or privately, and they join the party to escape the potential backlash.


----------



## Zenoshikage

Gengoro *Nai-nek-cha*(Dog "Fox")
*Class:* Cleric 3*
Race:* *Nai-nek-cha**
Size:* medium*
Gender:* Male *

Str:* 10         *
Level:* 3        *
XP:* *
Dex:* 10 *BAB:* 2          *
HP:* *30
Con:* 10         *
Grapple:* +2 
*Int:* 14         *
Speed:* 30'       *
Wis**:* 18         *
Init:* +0        *
Cha:* 10 


Domains: Healing Trickery 
Energy: Positive [Healing / Turns Undead]

*Base  Armor Shld  Dex  Size  Nat   Misc 
  Total**Armor:*             10    +2   +0    +0    +0    +0    +0      12*

Touch:* 10              *
Flatfooted:* 12                          *
        Base   Mod  Misc   Total
**Fort:*                       3        +0      +0     3*
Ref:*    1     +0     +0     1
*Will:*                        3     +4     +0    7 *

Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical* Dagger                           1d4       19-20/x2 *
Languages:* Common, Tlaxan,Spiritspeech
*
Abilities:*Shapechanger Subtype Animal Blood: Is affected by effects that target animals Low Light Vision Animal form *

Feats:* Animal Voice *

Skill Points:* 58       *
Max Ranks:**
Skills                   Ranks  Mod   Total*
Disguise 4     2                6
Hide     4     0                4
Heal     6     4               10
Spellcraft                        6           2                8
Bluff                        4           0                4  
Gengoro's Equipment:

Weapons / Armor / Shield   (from above)                        16lbs        
Bell
  Manacles x1                                                                2lbs
  Mirror                                                                          1lb
  Signal whistle
  Spell component pouch                                                2lbs
_____
                                                                                  21 lb
 
  Total
*Lgt   Med    Hvy   Lift  Push**
Weight:* 33 34-66     67-100 200 500

I think I fixed it and thanks for the language suggestions


----------



## Neurotic

[sblock=For DM]
I'm was reading through the thread when I connected the dots: Mystal is ALBINO, there will be no color changing for him. He could get bonuses in snow or mist, but I don't think that is equivalent to any natural setting.

Would you consider some replacement (maybe he learned to be extra stealthy because of lack of natural camouflage or is more adept at spotting the enemy (there is a feat Quick Reconnoiter in CAdventurer that gives free spot and listen checks i.e. you roll even when he is not actively searching for something - in this case we could/should wave away +2 to initiative the feat normaly gives))

I can leave it as is, it's not heavy powergame so there will be little need for taking every edge there is.
[/sblock]


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic: I don't mind a swapping to a bonus of +2 to Move Silently, no conditionals.

Zenos:  Looks okay. You don't need to take a feat for Small Animal Size, that'a a given with the nai-nek-chai, so you have a 1st level feat to choose.

Shakou: I think I'll adapt that background a bit, but it sounds workable and quite fun to me. Instead of being stopped by the party, I think it would work better if the two of them had tried their trick on Cormondal whilst the party where upriver, got caught by the authorities and saved from a possible death sentence (arguably, what they do is "extort money through magical menaces, a capital crime") by the intervention of the Young Vashti, offering them the choice of performing penance instead.

Okay, I'll put up a new IC post later today.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Neurotic: I don't mind a swapping to a bonus of +2 to Move Silently, no conditionals.
> 
> Zenos:  Looks okay. You don't need to take a feat for Small Animal Size, that'a a given with the nai-nek-chai, so you have a 1st level feat to choose.
> 
> Shakou: I think I'll adapt that background a bit, but it sounds workable and quite fun to me. Instead of being stopped by the party, I think it would work better if the two of them had tried their trick on Cormondal whilst the party where upriver, got caught by the authorities and saved from a possible death sentence (arguably, what they do is "extort money through magical menaces, a capital crime") by the intervention of the Young Vashti, offering them the choice of performing penance instead.
> 
> Okay, I'll put up a new IC post later today.




Works for me.  I'll try to whip up a more completed sheet for Shakou now.


----------



## Theroc

Shakou(Nainekchai Tiger Rogue)
Things to add:
Physical Description
Background
Stat block for Shakou's tiger form?  Would that be something you'd like, Simon?

[sblock]


		Code:
	

[B]Name:[/B] Shakou
[B]Class:[/B] Rogue 3
[B]Race:[/B] Nai Nek Chai
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Female

[I]Human form[/I]

[B]Str:[/B] 10 +0 (02p.)     [B]Level:[/B] 3        [B]XP:[/B] ????
[B]Dex:[/B] 16 +3 (10p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +2         [B]HP:[/B] 38 (23 Health, 15 Grace)
[B]Con:[/B] 14 +2 (06p.)     [B]Grapple:[/B] +2     [B]Dmg Red:[/B] XX/XXXX
[B]Int:[/B] 12 +1 (06p.)     [B]Speed:[/B] 30'      [B]Spell Res:[/B] XX
[B]Wis:[/B] 10 +0 (00p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +3        [B]Spell Save:[/B] +X
[B]Cha:[/B] 12 +1 (04p.)     [B]ACP:[/B] -0         [B]Spell Fail:[/B] XX%

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +0    +0    +3    +0    +0    +0    13
[B]Touch:[/B] 13              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 10

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                      1    +2         =3
[B]Ref:[/B]                       3    +3         =6
[B]Will:[/B]                      1    +0         =1

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
shortswords(x2)           +2     1d6+0      19-20x2
MW Shortbow               +6     1d6+1      20-20x2


[B]Languages:[/B] Low Imperial, High Imperial

[B]Abilities:[/B]
Shapechanger Subtype
Animal Blood: Is affected by effects that target animals
Low Light Vision
Animal form
Sneak attack 2d6
Trapfinding
Evasion
Trapsense +1

[B]Feats:[/B]
Medium Animal form
Animal Voice


[B]Skill Points:[/B] 54       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 6/3
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Bluff                      6    +1    +0    =7
Disable Device             2    +1    +0    =3
Listen                     5    +0    +0    =5
Move Silently              6    +3    +0    =9
Hide                       6    +3    +0    =9
Spot                       5    +0    +0    =5
Use Magic Device           1    +1    +0    =3
Tumble                     5    +3    +2    =10
Jump                       5    +0    +2    =7
Perform(Dance)             3    +1    +0    =4
Climb                      2    +0    +0    =2
Swim                       5    +0    +0    =5
Gather Information         3    +1    +0    =4


[I]Tiger form[/I]

[B]Str:[/B] 16 +3 (02p.)     [B]HP:[/B] 44 (29 Health, 15 Grace)      
[B]Dex:[/B] 24 +7 (10p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +2         
[B]Con:[/B] 18 +4 (06p.)     [B]Grapple:[/B] +5     
[B]Int:[/B] 12 +1 (06p.)     [B]Speed:[/B] 30'(land) 20'(climb)    
[B]Wis:[/B] 10 +0 (00p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +7        
[B]Cha:[/B] 12 +1 (04p.)     [B]ACP:[/B] -0         

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +0    +0    +7    +0    +0    +0    17
[B]Touch:[/B] 17              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 10

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                      1    +4       =5
[B]Ref:[/B]                       3    +7       =10
[B]Will:[/B]                      1    +0       =1

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
Bite                      +5     1d6+3      20-20x2
Claw(x2)                  +5     1d3+3      20-20x2

[B]Languages:[/B] Low Imperial, High Imperial

[B]Abilities:[/B]
Shapechanger Subtype
Animal Blood: Is affected by effects that target animals
Can speak with Felines(or is it just Tigers/Leopards?)
Low Light Vision
Animal form
Sneak attack 2d6
Trapfinding
Evasion
Trapsense +1

[B]Feats:[/B]
Medium Animal form
Animal Voice


[B]Skill Points:[/B] 54       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 6/3
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Bluff                      6    +1    +0   =7
Disable Device             2    +1    +0   =3
Listen                     2    +0    +0   =2
Move Silently              6    +7    +8   =21
Hide                       6    +7    +8   =21
Spot                       3    +0    +0   =3
Use Magic Device           1    +1    +0   =3
Tumble                     5    +3    +2   =10
Jump                       5    +3   +10   =18
Perform(Dance)             1    +1    +0   =2
Balance                    0    +7    +8   =15
Climb                      2    +3    +8   =13
Swim                       5    +3    +0   =8
Gather Information         3    +1    +0   =4


[B]Equipment:               Cost  Weight[/B]
Thieves Tools            30gp   01lb
Shortswords(x2)          20gp   04lb
MW Shortbow              30gp   02lb
Arrows(x40)              02gp   06lb
Backpack                 02gp   02lb
Rations(x5)              25sp   05lb
Waterskin(x2)            02gp   08lb
Yen                       -     02lb
                    
[B]Total Weight:[/B]30lb      [B]Money:[/B] 113gp 75sp XXcp

                           [B]Lgt   Medium   Heavy  Lift  Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]               33lb   34-66   67-100   200   500

[B]Age:[/B] 21
[B]Height:[/B] 4'11"
[B]Weight:[/B] 125lb
[B]Eyes:[/B] Amber
[B]Hair:[/B] Orange with black streaks
[B]Skin:[/B] Pale

*



Appearance:* 
Shakou definitely was not a woman to make a small impression.  With amber eyes and catlike pupils, her stare was quite unnerving to some, and when coupled with her wild hair made her quite a striking figure along.  The tresses only fell to about her shoulder, but the pattern bore a striking resemblance to a tiger's coat.

Her posture was self-assured, almost bored for the most part, though her eyes often worked to take into account as much of her surroundings as she could, constantly looking for an advantageous position in any situation to ensure she comes out on top.

Her garb was somewhat unique, in that she wore a rather close fit, flexible outfit that hugged somewhat to her curvature.  She also carried a spare outfit in her backpack, made of looser materials when she anticipated needed to fight seriously.

*Facial image*





(Courtesy of blogcatalog.com)

*Outfit Image:*




(Courtesy of http://jade.bioware.com/characters/images/)

*Background:* XXXX[/sblock]
IC rolls:
Roll Lookup

HP calculation:6HD(+2CON)+3HD(+2CON)+6HD(+2CON)+14CONscore=35
Health: 20 
Grace: 15 
+1 Health per level
Health:23
Grace 15
Total HP: 38


----------



## Dr Simon

Theroc said:


> Shakou(Nainekchai Tiger Rogue)
> 
> Stat block for Shakou's tiger form?  Would that be something you'd like, Simon?




That would be good, although don't forget that you're using the Leopard stats, not Tiger (which is cosmetic only).  We could assume the existence of such a creature as the Fnoi Tiger, a much smaller (Medium size) species of tiger found mainly in the Cosanq's Heart hills, that just happens to use the same stat block as the Leopard, for Shakou's animal form.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> That would be good, although don't forget that you're using the Leopard stats, not Tiger (which is cosmetic only).  We could assume the existence of such a creature as the Fnoi Tiger, a much smaller (Medium size) species of tiger found mainly in the Cosanq's Heart hills, that just happens to use the same stat block as the Leopard, for Shakou's animal form.




I hadn't even noticed the tiger was large as opposed to medium.  Yeah, I was still using leopard stats, just making her look like a tiger.  Similar to how Zenos is doing a fox rather than dog(except I'm not changing any numbers at all.)


----------



## Theroc

Question:
My character's constitution increases in Leopard/Tiger form.

Do I calculate the +4 Con bonus into my HP for each level during the change?  I.e. adding +4 everywhere I used to have a +2?

The sheet is mostly updated mathwise... just need to know how that'd be affected.


----------



## Dr Simon

Theroc said:


> Question:
> My character's constitution increases in Leopard/Tiger form.
> 
> Do I calculate the +4 Con bonus into my HP for each level during the change?  I.e. adding +4 everywhere I used to have a +2?
> .




Yes, basically.


----------



## Neurotic

Do we re-post characters in RG? Is everything OK with them? I'll find hitpoints/grace you rolled for Mystal and add them to his sheet later today


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic: Yeah, go ahead and post in RG. I think Mystal had one too many maneuvres prepared (9 instead of 8). I'll check 'em all over once they're posted in the RG. Same goes for Shakou and Zenos.


----------



## Neurotic

I marked another one as -- meaning 'not taken, but will be' so now there are eight.

[sblock=For DM only]
I'd like to add little mischiveous streak on Mystal: he will scare people by popping out behind them or speaking after he dissapears scouting, not realy keen or freightnening them as proving he can sneak up on them.

Of course, practical jokes of some kind or other will occasionaly happen, but only when he is in good mood (generaly, after successful combat)
[/sblock]


----------



## Theroc

I'll have to stab Zenos to get in gear on the character sheet... and to post in the thread.

Is anyone going to drop Shayuri a line to make sure she hasn't missed the thread starting up again?


----------



## Shayuri

I haven't. Just been busy, and didn't quite get to it last night when I did a mass catch-up posting.

I'll be posting for Annika tonight though.


----------



## Theroc

Shayuri said:


> I haven't. Just been busy, and didn't quite get to it last night when I did a mass catch-up posting.
> 
> I'll be posting for Annika tonight though.




Mmm... perhaps an appearance and background too?


----------



## Shayuri

heh. I have an appearance for her, I just need to update my sheet with it.

Her background is hazier to me, though it's been getting clearer as the game goes on. It's been an unusual progression for me. Usually I base my RP on background stuff. This time, the background is sort of back-building itself from the RP.


----------



## Dr Simon

As I recall there are two pictures of Annika somewhere in these threads, but I don't remember where they are. 

I remember that the Usenet group rec.games.frp.advocacy used to have heated discussions about the relative merits of "design at start" (DAS) and "design in play" (DIP) character motivations. I think either's fine, in fact an overly complex background for a starting character can sometimes be a hindrance to their journey from 1st level upwards.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> As I recall there are two pictures of Annika somewhere in these threads, but I don't remember where they are.
> 
> I remember that the Usenet group rec.games.frp.advocacy used to have heated discussions about the relative merits of "design at start" (DAS) and "design in play" (DIP) character motivations. I think either's fine, in fact an overly complex background for a starting character can sometimes be a hindrance to their journey from 1st level upwards.




Personally, I lean more towards DIP, simply because if I go too long with an initial background, I'll start covering ground best covered by a beyond level one character... and to ensure the character won't be developed in such a fashion as to clash horribly with the party in general.

Either works, DAS just tends to get difficult if you start getting overly invested in the initial background, possibly, at least.


----------



## Dr Simon

I think DIP works better for PBP, because the slower posting rate allows you to more time to get a feel for the character over a very short span of game time. and conversely there is little point setting up some great in-depth background for your character with loads of hooks or potential plot turns when, in all likelihood, the game will never get to that point. On the other hand, it works quite well if you're running a one-to-one game.

Oh, Theroc, to answer your queries in the Rogues Gallery,  XP = 3000, and talking to felines is fine. I think we figured any animal in roughly the same Kingdom was a reasonable approximation.


----------



## Theroc

I'm sorry Simon.  Gengoro is dropping out.  No idea why, but I asked him if he was going to play or not and he said, "Probably not."

Which means we need a healer...


----------



## Dr Simon

Yeah, I figured he wasn't enormously committed. Not to worry, it happens.

As for a healer, I wouldn't worry too much. The Health/Grace mechanic mitigates much of the need for a cleric, plus you have potions and Three Flowers' lay on hands ability for emergencies.


----------



## Blackrat

Dr Simon said:


> and Three Flowers' lay on hands ability for emergencies.




Quite ... Must be really an emergency to be of any use


----------



## Dr Simon

Blackrat said:


> Quite ... Must be really an emergency to be of any use




Well, sometimes you really need those, what is it? 4 points?


----------



## Theroc

Well, when TF hits level 4, he should make sure to prepare some beautiful healing.  

Also, Simon, did Vashti give EACH player two potions, or was it two potions for the party?


----------



## Shayuri

I'm more concerned about the lack of Lesser Restoration and things like Cure Disease and Neutralize Poison than I am about hit point healing at the moment...


----------



## Theroc

Well, not much to be done about that now, besides wait for another person to show interest.

I apologize for Gengoro dropping out like that.  I thought the concept of playing a 'kitsune' would have held his attention, since it's his favorite mythical being and he almost never gets to really play one.  Apparently I was wrong.

Edit: >.>
Just noticed Neurotic didn't post Mystal in the Rogue's Gallery at all, lol.


----------



## Dr Simon

Theroc said:


> Also, Simon, did Vashti give EACH player two potions, or was it two potions for the party?




Two potions in total.


----------



## Walking Dad

Hi. I'm back! Do you still need old Growling Ape (hope!!!)?


----------



## Neurotic

Right on time


----------



## Theroc

Of course.  Every game needs a good Shillelagh!


----------



## Neurotic

I apologize to those who play in more then one game with me who will see this more then once. Also, sorry for hijacking the thread for somethin like this. I know most people here are americans (and thus accross the world), but I know there are europeans and others that might be interested.

[sblock=WARNING: shameless self promotion]
If you want great Mediterannean summer on the sea come and visit Croatia, it's ranked among 5 cleanest in the world with over thousand islands and history of 1500 years. All within driving distance for Vienna or Rome. It's that small country accross the sea north of Italy.

Check my site url=http://www.conso-casa.com for accomodation in capital or links about Croatia. Adriatic accomodation on the sea are per request.
[/sblock]


----------



## Dr Simon

Just a note, normally I do the dice rolls and report the result. I don't mind if you use Invisible Castle as it saves me some work, but for the likes of Hide and Move Silently I prefer to do the rolls myself and leave them unreported. This also goes for other skills where the outcome is uncertain, usually including Appraise, Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Knowledge,  Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight Of Hand, some Spellcraft and Spot.

As this is a non-hostile situation and the modifiers are so high anyway, I'll let it slide for this occassion.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Just a note, normally I do the dice rolls and report the result. I don't mind if you use Invisible Castle as it saves me some work, but for the likes of Hide and Move Silently I prefer to do the rolls myself and leave them unreported. This also goes for other skills where the outcome is uncertain, usually including Appraise, Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Knowledge,  Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight Of Hand, some Spellcraft and Spot.
> 
> As this is a non-hostile situation and the modifiers are so high anyway, I'll let it slide for this occassion.





Alright.  Sorry about that, I wasn't sure if I should just ask you to roll or do it myself... (games vary so often), so I figured while I was at it I'd pop it up.  I'll try to remember to leave rolls up to you henceforth.

And in anycase, don't we need to reroll every so often for things like MS and Hide?


----------



## Neurotic

Sorry. Habbit. Feel free to ignore any result you think you should roll. I'll try to remember.


----------



## Dr Simon

No worries, it's not a big deal.  

Theroc - I don't know offhand if you need to check at regular intervals, but for those kind of skills a result only matters if they are put to the test. 

If you prefer making your own rolls, feel free to IC for attacks, initiative etc., I'm not bent on absolute control!


----------



## Dr Simon

Shayuri said:


> "Do you think the apes are the cursed ones?"




LOL, you make it sound just like a Conan story!

(Edit: In the one Conan anthology I've got, there must be at least three stories involving the inhabitants of a lost city being cursed with the form of giant carnivorous apes)

Although...

I must admit that I do like using the likes of RE Howard, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance et al. for ideas. They are so much more the original spirit of D&D than the post-Dragonlance attempts at massive story-telling campaigns/adventure paths.


----------



## Shayuri

"Growling Ape...what is best in life?"

(^_^)


----------



## Walking Dad

To crush coconuts, see them brought before you, and to hear the lamentation of the ones who didn't get one. (Ape liking coconuts)


----------



## Walking Dad

Neurotic said:


> Yes. Preparation. Party waits while combination of small ape and hunting tiger (dynamic duo, but much more subtle) enters for scouting purposes. Their footfalls lighter then shadows touch and their eyes and ears as sharp as dragons...




Not small... I are baboon! (does anyone catch the reference?)


----------



## Neurotic

I was thinking about Mystal as small ape not Ape

I.M.Weasel


----------



## Shayuri

I just realized I still haven't picked Annika's last 1st level spell for level 3.

Anyone have any suggestions?


----------



## Theroc

Shayuri said:


> I just realized I still haven't picked Annika's last 1st level spell for level 3.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions?




Given Annika's FIRE leaning, I'd say maybe Burning Hands.

Or... Enlarge person, though, I think this'd primarily help Three Flowers, and maybe Mystal(unless he doesn't want to lose his small size accuracy bonus).

Or maybe Summon Monster I for an additional combatant, though it wouldn't last too long at this level.


----------



## Shayuri

Yar...thought about it, but Burning Hands is a waste of a spell slot at higher levels, and sorcerors need to think ahead.

Though I guess it IS a bit weird to have 'fire mage' as a concept, and not actually have any fire attack spells.


----------



## Dr Simon

Since you lack a healer character, I'm prepared to allow this spell, from Arcana Evolved. I've never much subscribed to the Arcane=Blasting, Divine=Healing dichotomy anyway. The full round casting time and the subdual damage make it marginally less effective than a CLW. (Greater version is 4th level, BTW). I don't know if it would suit Annika, though.

*Transfer Wounds (Lesser)*
Transmutation [Positive Energy]
Level: 1 (Simple)
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes
Laying your hand upon a living creature, you cure 1d10 points of the target’s damage + 1 point per caster level (up to +5). You then immediately suffer half that amount as subdual damage. If you cast this spell upon yourself, you transmute 1d10 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (up to +10) to half that amount of subdual damage. You can use this spell offensively against an undead creature, who suffers 1d10 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (up to +10), but you suffer half that amount as subdual damage. An undead creature can attempt a Will save to take half damage.
When the damage heals, neither you nor the target are left with any scars or traces of injury.

I had another scan of AU, and found the following possibilities:

*Conjure Energy Creature I*
Conjuration (Creation) [See Text]
Level: 1 (Complex)
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet/two levels)
Effect: One created creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
With a flash of power, this spell creates a monster out of pure energy. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. If you do not give it a command, it attacks your opponents to the best
of its ability. You can communicate with it and can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. Conjured creatures act normally on the last round of the spell and disappear at the end of their turn. You choose the creature’s energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). The spell takes on the descriptor of the energy type chosen. The monster, although energy,
is nevertheless corporeal and solid. It uses the statistics of a monster of your choice from the list below, except for the following:
• It is immune to damage of its energy type.
• If it has more than 3 HD, it has DR 5/+1 (or 5/magic). If it has more than 10 HD, it has DR 10/+2 (or 10/magic).
• It has no Intelligence score or Constitution score. (If it has no opponents to attack and no commands to follow, it stands motionless.)
• It is a construct (immune to mind effects, poison, paralysis, stunning,
disease, and necromantic effects). It is not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save. It is not subject to death by massive damage. It is destroyed (and disappears) when it reaches 0 hit points.
• It has darkvision with a range of 60 feet.
• It inflicts additional damage of its energy type equal to its Hit Dice
(maximum +10) with each attack.
Choose the type of creature you want the spell to conjure from this list: dire rat, dog (animal), hawk (animal), or monkey (animal).
The creature is not real. It is a creation of magic.

*Fireburst*
Evocation [Fire]
Level: 1 (Complex)
Casting Time: Standard action
Range: Medium (100 feet + 10 feet/level)
Area: 10-foot-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
With a simple gesture, you send a burst of fire out from an already burning flame (even a candle) within range. The fireburst inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + 1d6 points per two caster levels (maximum 5d6). The burst is too quick to ignite flammable items (like cloth or paper) but it can still ignite combustibles (like oil).


----------



## Blackrat

Okay, now I really want to know how you came up with that three-faced spidey-thingey... And if you have a pic of it, can I see it?

It sounds awesome


----------



## Dr Simon

From my own twisted imagination. Once I'd decided on giant spiders, I thought I'd include a really big one. The multi-faced aspect comes from Brahmin deities, and to make it even more creepy I thought they could look like theatrical masks (inspired by many, many uses of scary masks like Jacob's Ladder, The Wall, Brazil, Spirited Away, etc.)
eg:






I'd like to see a picture too!


----------



## Blackrat

Dr Simon said:


> I'd like to see a picture too!




Bummer, I really hoped it was from some mythology and you already had a pic . Man, now you're scaring me... In a good way


----------



## Walking Dad

Maybe they are smiling:


----------



## Shayuri

That energy creature spell is pretty cool!

I think I may have to go for that...

Though you have a point about no healing.

HMMM.


----------



## Dr Simon

That's one happy spider!



Shayuri said:


> That energy creature spell is pretty cool!




Any Arcana Evolved player will tell you that there's no fun like Fire Monkey fun.


----------



## Shayuri

I actually have Arcana Unearthed. Haven't really gotten a chance to play it yet.

I dunno! I'm torn! The fire monster spell is great for Annika, but might be kind of lame at this low level. 

And lacking healing will hurt pretty bad.


----------



## Theroc

<.<  I think Unearthered Arcana and Arcana Evolved are different supplements.

Anyway, how many levels are between Annika gaining new spells?


----------



## Dr Simon

There's *Arcana Unearthed*, by Monte Cook, which is the "alternative players handbook" with new races (giants, litorians, sibbecai, faen etc.) and alternative classes (mage blades, runethanes, greenbonds etc.) and a raft of slightly different rules. 





It came out at about the same time as 3.5, and was later updated to *Arcana Evolved*, with a new race, a new class, evolved levels, new spell templates and colour pictures. 





Then there's Unearthed Arcana. Originally, of course, a Gary Gygax supplement for 1st edition that introduced the Barbarian, Cavalier, PC Drow and an essay on pole-arms (amongst others).  Monte's book was named in homage to this, with an understanding with WOTC that (a) he could use it and (b) they wouldn't be needing it.





But then they put out Unearthed Arcana (3.5 edition), a compilation of variant rules (all of which are on the online SRDs). 





And just to muddy the acronymic waters there's also a d20 modern supplement called Urban Arcana, although it's usually obvious from context which UA you're talking about.


----------



## Shayuri

^ what he said.

Also, Annika gets new spells just about every level now...though that may change if I PrC her. Which I might.


----------



## Theroc

Shayuri said:


> ^ what he said.
> 
> Also, Annika gets new spells just about every level now...though that may change if I PrC her. Which I might.




Well, uh... That Arcana stuff is pretty garbled...

Anyway, for spells, I'd say 'healing now, possibly underpowered summoning at level 4?'


----------



## Shayuri

That is probably the best way to handle it, yeah.

So be it!


----------



## Dr Simon

I make it an extra 0th and a 2nd level spell for a 4th level sorcerer. If you wanted the summoning, there is always Conjure Energy Creature II;

As conjure energy creature I, except you may pick from this list of creatures: eagle (animal), Medium shark (animal), octopus (animal), Tiny viper (animal), or wolf (animal). Alternatively, you can create 1d3 creatures from the 1st-level list.


----------



## Shayuri

Energy creature II looks much better, yeah.

Who can argue with a spell that creates a _shark_ that's made of _fire?_

The answer? No one. It's that simple.

(^_^)


----------



## Theroc

So... are the spider's being openly hostile?  Or is there a chance to peacefully resolve this?  I understand if you can't answer the question, but uh... I'm sure Shakou would rather not fight a spiders as big or bigger than she is... especially with webs and stuff everywhere.


----------



## Dr Simon

Well, it's difficult to say for creatures that don't have facial expressions, but they are moving towards you in an aggressive fashion. That doesn't mean that you couldn't try a bit of quick diplomacy, of course....


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Well, it's difficult to say for creatures that don't have facial expressions, but they are moving towards you in an aggressive fashion. That doesn't mean that you couldn't try a bit of quick diplomacy, of course....




Ah... lol... Unfortunately Shakou doesn't speak spider... and I doubt the normal spiders are going to speak Imperial, be it high or low.

Thanks for answering, I'll wait to see if anyone else can whip up any diplomacy or something before my reply.


----------



## Walking Dad

> OOC: Aren't Spiders vermin, not 'animals'? Also, Shakou is... at... H16 I suppose... I didn't add my action since Shakou was lower on the initiative than everyone else, besides the House-Spider.




Yes, spider are vermin. But intelligent (speaking) specimens tend to be magical beasts. One vermin quality is 'mindless'.


----------



## Theroc

Walking Dad said:


> Yes, spider are vermin. But intelligent (speaking) specimens tend to be magical beasts. One vermin quality is 'mindless'.





My bad, I'm not particularly familiar with the animal/vermin magical crossover, so I got a bit confused.  I didn't spend much time studying up on monsters... since... I figured that'd mean less metagaming on my end.


----------



## Walking Dad

I'm also DMing so I had to do the learning . Ape wouldn't have tried it without the spider's words.


----------



## Shayuri

Hmm...I do have Arcana Evolved after all.

Hee.


----------



## Neurotic

Dr.S Fire riposte is melee touch attack. Just saying. In case, you know, Mystal might got lucky hit with low roll next time


----------



## Dr Simon

Oh, I know. He still missed


----------



## Neurotic

peh! in my language that means ... hm... bollocks!? it's bad luck! ... it is pronounced like 'pech' (with short e and audible h)


----------



## Blackrat

Neurotic said:


> peh! in my language that means ... hm... bollocks!? it's bad luck! ... it is pronounced like 'pech' (with short e and audible h)




Pronounced like P'takh? I didn't know you were a Klingon...


----------



## Neurotic

Mogu ti odgovoriti na materinjem jeziku?
(Moghu tee od'ghovorithy nah mattery'nyem yezzikhu?)
May I answer you in my mothers tongue?

As you can see, it looks much shorter and better if I don't try to make it written in equivalent english. My language is fonetic (it is written essentialy same way as it is pronounced)


----------



## Blackrat

Neurotic said:


> My language is fonetic (it is written essentialy same way as it is pronounced)




Yeah, I know. I have limited knowledge of hrvatski . And my language is phonetic also, so I daresay I could probably pronounce it pretty good.


----------



## Neurotic

Where are you from? If I may ask.


----------



## Blackrat

Finland


----------



## Neurotic

Argh. No wonder you can bend your tongue around foreign languages 
How did you learn croatian? Are your (grand)parent(s) from here? Or is it simply an interest? I must admit I don't have any idea how to either speak or read Finnish, unless it is somewhat similar to Hungarian

Sorry, all, for hijacking the thread. It's not everyday one gets to speak with one who actualy knows something about small european backwater  Of course, europeans have the advantage of home turf in that regard...


----------



## Blackrat

No it's more of an interest. I have a "passion" for languages. It's not that I really know croatian. As I said, I have limited knowledge... That means VERY limited. My knowledge is mostly about how it relates to other slavic languages and some basic vocabulary as a result. I don't think that I could build any sensible sentense but I could probably decipher the basic meaning of some simple sentense like "my name is ..." or such. That's my level of proficiency with most "big" slavic languages. The ugric languages I do a bit better and I understand pretty good all the latin based languages...

If you know hungarian, I'm pretty sure you could at least pronounce finnish decently as it is a kindred language


----------



## Neurotic

Nah, I have only basic understanding of hwo to read hungarian and I know few words, enough to ask for a meal in case of emergency  And I probably pronounce it terribly.

We get back to the game? And if you need help or translation sometimes, feel free to drop mail message on PM.


----------



## Dr Simon

Just some OOC notes on the current combat:

Walking Dad: you can choose the appearance of your summoned fire elemental (aka fire "spirit").

Neurotic: I like your plan for next round. Re-reading your post, are you planning on landing on the spider atop the huge spider (#4)? 

For off-the-wall moves like this, I might implement a version of the Skills Challenges and Stunts mechanic from Iron Heroes; you take a penalty to your roll and get a bonus or extra effect in return. It's sort of a huge expansion of the way Power Attack and Combat Epertise work.


----------



## Walking Dad

No question: Fire monkey spirit (mid sized will be gibbon and large gorilla...)


----------



## Neurotic

Some skill tricks do such things (skill roll for some effect similat to feat) - and yes, I plan to squish smaller spider between Mystal and big one, landing with feet first, knees hard and rolling away on impact after the spider drinks up inertia. (think parachuters when landing)

Also, Mystal will use his skill trick next round: attack as normaly, run away 10' jump 10' move additional 10' all over webs toward big spider (reason is 50'  teleport will not get me high enough if I need to cover more then half of that of horizontal distance...)


----------



## Theroc

~mimics the Fonz~  'Eyyyy!

So... is Simon back yet?  Is everyone else back?  Is the game continuing?


----------



## Shayuri

Hooray! Enworld lives!

I'll get back on this as soon as I can. Hopefully tomorrow, but I've got a huge backlog.


----------



## Dr Simon

I'm back, and the site seems to be working again. Waiting for actions for next round, I think...


----------



## Blackrat

Eh... Who's turn is it? My? Shay's? Monster? Someone else?


----------



## Shayuri

Guess I'll magic missile again. 

I'll make a post soon.


----------



## Dr Simon

WD, Produce Lightning is good for 3 minutes if you only use it as a melee weapon (which I've been assuming Ape is doing), so it should be good for a while yet.


----------



## Walking Dad

Oh, I always played with each attack (ranged and melee). Thanks


----------



## silveryfox

I'd like to put up an application if you need new players. Anything I should know about?


----------



## Theroc

silveryfox said:


> I'd like to put up an application if you need new players. Anything I should know about?






I believe the main thing we are lacking in is Healing.


----------



## silveryfox

Theroc said:


> I believe the main thing we are lacking in is Healing.




Healing aside from stabilizing tends to be ok at best. But I could do a Cloistered Cleric and with the DMs consent use the reserve feat _Healing Hands_ from Complete Champion to be able to keep the whole party at their feet for a while. 

I'll start putting a concept together and see what I can come up with.


----------



## Shayuri

Also note that Annika has, with GM approval, learned an arcane spell called Transfer Wounds. It changes lethal damage into nonlethal.

And Annika's a sorceror, so she'll be able to spam that once she has another level or two.


----------



## Walking Dad

Ape also has (theoretically) access to healing spells. He could learn lesser vigor for between battle healing, if the spell is allowed (it is in Complete Divine and the Spell Compendium).


----------



## Neurotic

Or we could stick to 'healing sticks' if we can find/make some. Altough with magic items as sparse as they are and our lack of funds it might be difficult proposition...


----------



## Dr Simon

Probably what the group lacks more than healing is Knowledge (after losing Jar'Thol), so a Cloistered Cleric would cover both bases quite nicely. Note that I've statted up the Vashti as a Cloistered Cleric, so your character could come from the same temple, or at the very least a similar order.


----------



## silveryfox

Dr Simon said:


> Probably what the group lacks more than healing is Knowledge (after losing Jar'Thol), so a Cloistered Cleric would cover both bases quite nicely. Note that I've statted up the Vashti as a Cloistered Cleric, so your character could come from the same temple, or at the very least a similar order.




I'll put it together later today then, level 1?

What is your opinion on feats outside SRD? Should I just forget them for simplicity or give them to you for reviewing?


----------



## Dr Simon

What are we now?  Level 3, I think.  I've been gradually increasing the amount of non-SRD stuff but since I don't have many supplements I prefer them to be run by me first. Usually open to it, though. 

Edit: Okay, had a look at the notes on dandello.net.  Do you mean "Touch of Healing"? Looks okay to me, if a little clunky in the book-keeping (character has to have lost half hit points or more?), so go for it.


----------



## Shayuri

Level 3, yep. I remember agonizing over which new 1st level spell to take. 

At long last, being a sorceror's about to pay off! Now I just have to keep her alive to see level 4...

The first 3 levels of sorcery are so painful. (^_^)


----------



## silveryfox

*Application*

I put together the character but things surrounding his faith is still unclear. The background isn't that fleshed out either. AND, I used quite few non-SRD feats for you to review. 

I kicked in a level of bard along with a stacking feat to go with supporting role of a healer.

[sblock=Winter]
Winter​




​[sblock=Background]
   [FONT=&quot]My first memory is of the frozen peaks, the gigantic mountains of the north. It’s of the cold winds and misty valleys, and like the mist the memories are fleeting and filled with uncertainty. [/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]When I opened my eyes the sun shone through the puffy clouds and right into my eyes. It hurt. The people who had found me though, they thought I was dying from a cold. My pale, cold skin and dizziness made them rush to the Vashtis for learned help. [/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]The following days saw the smiling face of the old Vashti in my room several times. The kind woman nursed me back to health with a few meals and one or two kind words. I didn’t have a cold, I was simply _cold_. 
 [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]They called me _Winter_. [/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]The Vashti thought I must have bumped my head or something, my memories were blurry. I started a new life at their monastery. Reading and contemplation stood in focus. I had an affinity for languages and studied those along with the craft of healing. My nimble fingers and quick mind made me a fast student. At first I was shy and uncertain; the books became my sole companions. [/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]I found my purpose in traveling the countryside and helping the helpless. A curiosity awakened within me and I began to overcome my shyness. The nights went by with the soft tune of my flute. The peculiar rapier that had been found nearby me were probably not enough to discourage any bandits I encountered, but I had learned to say what people wanted to hear. That doesn’t mean I never got robbed, actually I had to go hungry for a lot of the time. Most villagers were happy to help me out though and I helped them in turn.[/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]When the letter of the Vashtis passing got to me, I felt all alone again. Uncertain and unfamiliar I traveled back to pay my respects.      [/FONT]

[/sblock]
[sblock=Description]
[FONT=&quot]Winter is a young man with pale complexion and icy blue eyes. He is thin and somewhat frail. His hair is almost silvery. He is only slightly above 5ft and could easily be taken for a teenager. [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]
He is most often seen with wide beige robes over his shadowy armor, he has a sack slung over his shoulders with nightly necessities. Covered with simple silk scarves is his rapier. The rapier is set with silver and inlaid with pale pink gems. [/FONT]

[/sblock]
[sblock=Character Stats]
*[FONT=&quot]Human [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot](Thell) [/FONT]Bard[FONT=&quot] *1*/ [/FONT]Mystic*[FONT=&quot](Cloistered Cleric) [/FONT]**[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT]*

*[FONT=&quot]Feats[/FONT]*
 [FONT=&quot][H]: Nymph's Kiss[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot][1]: Winter’s Heart1[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot][3]: Divine Inspiration
[X]: Healing Devotion (Free, giving up the domain)
[X]: Knowledge Devotion (Free, giving up the domain)
[X]: Improved Initiative (Granted Power of the Time domain)[/FONT]
_[FONT=&quot]([6]: Sacred Healing)[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&quot]([9]: Touch of Healing)[/FONT]_
 [FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: A feat I made myself, listed hereunder.[/FONT]

*[FONT=&quot]Abilities[/FONT]*
 [FONT=&quot]Strength*              08*[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Dexterity*            14*[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Constitution*       10*[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Intelligence *       14*[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Wisdom*              14*[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Charisma*             15*[/FONT]

*[FONT=&quot]Domains[/FONT]*
 [FONT=&quot]Healing[/FONT][FONT=&quot], Time and Knowledge[/FONT]

*[FONT=&quot]Time Domain
[/FONT]**[FONT=&quot]Granted Power: [/FONT]* [FONT=&quot]Free Improved Initiative feat[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]1: True Strike[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]2: Gentle repose[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]3: Haste[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]4: Freedom of movement[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]5: Permanency[/FONT]

*[FONT=&quot]Class Features[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Bardic Music: [/FONT]* [FONT=&quot]3/day[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Turn Attempts: [/FONT]* [FONT=&quot]5/day (3+CHA)
[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot][+2 to Turn checks for Knowledge (Religion)>5][/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Lore:[/FONT]* [FONT=&quot] +7[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot][+3 Level, +2 Int Mod, +2 Knowledge (History) Ranks >5][/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Countersong (Su): [/FONT]* [FONT=&quot]Counter magical effects based on sound.Each round, can take a Perform check to affect all creatures within 30ft that are affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack to use the Perform check result instead of its saving throw. If any within 30ft is already under the effects of a magical attack they gain a new save, but have to use the Perform check result. This song can be sued for 10 rounds.[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]
Fascinate (Sp): [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Any creature paying attention to the bard within 90ft can be affected if they see the bard. Danger prevents the fascination from working. The number of maximum targets are equal to 1+(level/3).[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Perform skill check sets the DC of the affected creatures Will save. Succeeding means that the creature is immune for 24 hours. If the save fails, the creature sits quietly and listens without taking any other actions for 1r/level, assuming the Bard continues to play. A fascinated creature takes a -4 penalty on Listen and Spot checks. A threat against the target requires the bard to make another Perform check against the targets new save. An obvious threat breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion) mind-affecting ability.  [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]
Inspire Courage (Su): [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]To be affected, you must hear the bard play and effect will last for so long+5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. Inspire Courage is a mind-affecting ability.[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]
Inspire Competence (Su): [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Target must be an ally within 30ft; the target and the bard must see and hear each other. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on a skill check for as long as the Bard plays for a maximum of 2 minutes. Inspire Competence is a mind-affecting ability. [/FONT]


*[FONT=&quot]Saves                   Total                    Base                     Ability                 Misc.[/FONT]*
 [FONT=&quot]Fortitude            *+4*                        3                                                        1[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Reflex                  *+4*                        2                           2[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Will                      *+7*                        2                           5[/FONT]

*[FONT=&quot]HP: 19+2d6[/FONT]*

 *[FONT=&quot]AC: 16, touch: 12, flat-footed 14
[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot][+2dex+4armor][/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]
Skills (60)                                                                      Modifier             Ability                 Ranks                   Misc.[/FONT]*
 [FONT=&quot]Speak Language                                                                                                                                                 6
Heal                                                                               +10                        2                           6 2[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Concentration                                                             +6                                                     6[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Perform (flute)                                                            +12                      2                           6                           4
Knowledge (Religion)                                                 +8                        2                           6
Knowledge (Arcana)                                                   +8                        2                           6
Knowledge (Local)                                                      +8                        2                           6
Knowledge (History)                                                   +8                        2                           6[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Knowledge (Nature)                                                   +8                        2                           6
Diplomacy                                                                    +12                      2                           6                           4[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Hide                                                                               +3                        2                                                        1
Move Silently                                                               +3                        2                                                        1[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Profession (weaving)                                                  +4                        2                           2[/FONT]

[/sblock]
[sblock=Equipment]
*[FONT=&quot]Equipment                                                                   Price                    Weight[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]MW[/FONT]**[FONT=&quot] Silver Flute                                                          [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]10000Y               3lb
*MW* Diplomacy Tool ([/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Stylish Scarf[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot])                          5000Y                  1lb[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]MW[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] Rapier ([/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Road to the Dawn[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot])                              30200Y               2lb[/FONT]
Darkweave Twisted Silk 50000Y15lb
*MW* Dastanas                                                                                            17500Y               5lb
Spell Component Pouch                                            500Y                    2lb
Bedroll                                                                          10Y                      5lb
  Mirror, small steel                                                      1000Y                  1/2lb
  Pouch, belt                                                                   100Y                    1/2lb
Pouch, belt                                                                   100Y                    1/2lb
  Sack                                                                               10Y                      1/2lb
  Waterskin                                                                     100Y                    4lb
Vial (empty)                                                                  100Y                    1/10lb
Vial (empty)                                                                  100Y                    1/10lb
  Scroll case                                                                    100Y                    1lb
Silk rope (50ft)                                                            1000gp               5lb
  Silent shoes                                                                1000gp               1lb
  Monk’s outfit                                                               500Y                    2lb
  Traveler’s outfit                                                           100Y                    5lb
Healer's Kit 5000Y 1lb
Bell 100Y -
Flint and steel 100Y -
Ink 800Y -
Inkpen 10Y -
Sewing needle 50Y -
Candles (10) 10Y -
Parchemnt (10) 20Y - 
[FONT=&quot] *Total                                                                              104410Y             41.2lb*[/FONT]
[/sblock]
    [sblock=Equipment and Feats from non SRD-sources]
*Dastana *(Armsp15)
_This pair of metal bracers can be worn in addition to some of the other types of armor to provide an additional armor bonus that stacks with both the foundation armor and any shield worn. You can wear Dastana with padded, leather or chain shirt armor. You need the Armor Proficiency (light) feat to wear Dastana without penalty. _

Armor                   Maximum            Check                    Arcane
Bonus                   Dexterity              Penalty                 Spell Failure         Weight                 
+1                                                      -1                          5%                        5lbs
[25gp]

*Silent Shoes * (Arms p24)
_These are soft, padded shoes that absorb sound effectively. Despite the padding, the soles are made from tough, stretchy leather that hold up to abuse. They grant +1 circumstance bonus to Move Silently checks._
[10gp]

*Darkweave*  (Eb p121)
_Dark cloth that magically includes strands of shadow._
Clothes made with Darkweave grant a +1 Circumstance bonus on Hide checks.
[+100gp]

*Twisted Silk* (DR348 p87)
_Rare and valuable, twisted silk armor uses silk wound around strands of mithral to generate protection with very little weight. It superficially resembles a very well made form of padded armor but offers much greater defense. The silk keeps it silent and the twisted strands are surprisingly durable._
 Armor                   Maximum            Check                    Arcane
Bonus                   Dexterity              Penalty                 Spell Failure         Weight
+3                         +7                         0                           5%                        15lbs
[400gp]

*NYMPH’S KISS [EXALTED]** 
*You can channel positive energy to grant nearby living creatures the ability to recover from their wounds quickly.
*Benefit: *Fey creatures regard you as though you were fey. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on all Charisma-related checks, and a +1 bonus on all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. Starting with the level when you take this feat, you gain 1 extra skill point per level.

*SACRED HEALING [DIVINE]** 
*You can channel positive energy to grant nearby living creatures the ability to recover from their wounds quickly.
*Prerequisite: *Heal 8 ranks, ability to turn undead 
*Benefit: *You can spend a turn attempt as a full-round action to grant fast healing 3 to all living creatures within a 60ft-burst. The fast healing lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Cha mofidier.

*DIVINE INSPIRATION [GENERAL] *
*Prerequisite: *Ability to Turn Undead, Bardic Music class ability 
*Benefit: *Your Bard and Cleric levels stack to determine what Bardic Music abilities are available to you. Perform is also always a Class skill for you.
*
**WINTER’S HEART [HERITAGE] *
You are born with the touch of cold, spirits of winter in your lineage coming to the surface. 
*Benefit: *You receive a+1 racial bonus to Fortitude saves, Cold Resistance 1 and +4 bonus to Fortitude saves to avoid damage from cold weather. 
*Special: *Can only be chosen by 1st level characters. 

*HEALING DEVOTION [DOMAIN] **
*You can heal damage faster than normal. *
**Benefit: *Once per day, you can gain fast healing 1, +1 for every five character levels you possess (maximum fast healing 5 at 20th level). This effect lasts for 1 minute. 
You can activate this feat as an immediate action or, if you have a daily available, it automatically activates if you are reduced to 0 hit points or below (but not killed). 
*Special: *As a full-round action, you can transfer this ability to a willing recipient as a touch spell. Doing so counts as one daily use of the ability. 
*Special: *If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each daily turn or rebuke use you expend.

*KNOWLEDGE DEVOTION [DOMAIN] *
You can use your knowledge to exploit your foes' weaknesses and overcome their strengths. 
*Prerequisite: *Knowledge (any) 5 ranks. 
*Benefit: *Upon selecting this feat, you immediately add one Knowledge skill of your choice to your list of class skills. Thereafter, you treat that skill as a class skill, regardless of which class you are advancing in. Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, as described on page 78 of the _Player's Handbook, _provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill. 

You then receive an insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature type for the remainder of the combat. The amount of the bonus depends on your Knowledge check result, as given on the following table. 

*[FONT=&quot]Check Bonus [/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Result [/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Bonus Granted[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]<15 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]+1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16-25 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]+2 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26-30 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]+3 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31-35 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]+4 [/FONT]

*TOUCH OF HEALING [RESERVE] *
You can channel divine energy into healing with a touch. 
*Prerequisite: *Ability to cast 2nd-level spells. 
*Benefit: *As long as you have a conjuration (healing) spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast, you can spend a standard action to touch a target creature and heal 3 points of damage per level of the highest-level conjuration (healing) spell you have available to cast. You can use this ability only on a target that has been reduced to one-half or fewer of its total hit points. The effect ends once you've healed the subject up to half its normal maximum hit points. This ability has no effect on creatures that can't be healed by _cure _spells. 
[FONT=&quot]As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting conjuration (healing) spells.[/FONT]
 [/sblock]
[/sblock]


----------



## Dr Simon

Yes, I quite like that, got a good mystical feel to the character. Could be an interesting mix of support abilities.

He's quite a long way from home for a Thell, and there aren't any mountains *that* near to Cormondal (the Three Sisters range is closest, to the east), but the Old Vashti was something of a traveller so perhaps she was away from home, or perhaps Winter was brought a long way to the only person thought to be able to help him.

I'll have to check, but I think you've overspent compared to the wealth of the other characters, maybe knock off a masterwork quality from an item or two.


----------



## silveryfox

Oki. Maybe she traveled and decided to bring the orphan boy with her? She could have sensed some innate talent for healing or some such. 

I can remove some things. Not a lot of things for a 3rd level character, but non of the things are that important to the character. 

How do I join IC?


----------



## Dr Simon

One of the things about the Old Vashti was that she used to be something of an adventurer, so perhaps she bought Winter with her as a child, from one of her trips? It's not too important right now.

I wasn't sure about the Nymph's Kiss feat, either. Surely those bonuses only count against Fey, otherwise that's one hell of a bunch of bonuses - +2 to *all* Cha-related checks is the same as a +4 boost to Charisma, and it takes an Epic feat to get even a +1 to an ability score, let alone the saving throw bonus as well.  If directed, however, it makes more sense and seems a bit more balanced (and also fits with the fluff about having good relations with the fey).

If you like, you could modify it to affect Spirit subtype creatures rather than Fey, which will have more utility.

I'll write you into the next IC post.


----------



## silveryfox

Nymph's Kiss gives +2 to Charisma related checks, such as skill checks, nothing else related to Charisma but I can agree that the feat is crazy powerful. Having it related to Spirits seems good, I'll go with that.


----------



## Dr Simon

Okay, that's cool.  Even with a bonus to skill checks etc., it trumps those "+2 to two skills" type feats by quite a lot. I'm not sure that the pre-requisite of having a nymph or dryad as a girlfriend is much of a cost (surely that's a prize in itself?).

But if you're happy limiting it to Spirit creatures, that's fine with me. That covers almost everything the part has encountered so far anyway...


----------



## Theroc

Str damage!?  ~RUNS AWAY~

>.>

Crazy biatch!

Seems it was silly of me to go near it alone.


----------



## Neurotic

You could (have) help(ed) us kill the spiders and then we could all explore in peace. Why DID you go alone when there was obvious threat in the first place?

(I'm really interested, I'm not trying to put you off.)


----------



## Theroc

Neurotic said:


> You could (have) help(ed) us kill the spiders and then we could all explore in peace. Why DID you go alone when there was obvious threat in the first place?
> 
> (I'm really interested, I'm not trying to put you off.)





Because I figured it may have been one of those, 'While you all were busy fighting the spiders... the girl got away!' sorta deals.

Additionally, because ICly, no one told Shakou whether or not to go, so she went for the cave to investigate, because she's curious... and apparently doesn't know the adage about cats and curiousity.


----------



## Dr Simon

Silveryfox:
I rolled 2d6=8 for hit points.

Theroc:
Well, (un)luck of the draw, that's the first time anyone has failed their Fortitude save. Believe me that those fighting the huge spider-demon have been lucky!


----------



## Neurotic

Theroc said:


> Because I figured it may have been one of those, 'While you all were busy fighting the spiders... the girl got away!' sorta deals.



Good idea!



Theroc said:


> Additionally, because ICly, no one told Shakou whether or not to go, so she went for the cave to investigate, because she's curious... and apparently doesn't know the adage about cats and curiousity.



And what would you do if we all die because we lack additional combat support? Be surrounded by spiders and ghosts?  That one wasn't stelar...if someone doesn't tell her don't jump off the cliff would she do it?

NP, it was good IC and those are good reasons.


----------



## Theroc

Neurotic said:


> Good idea!
> 
> 
> And what would you do if we all die because we lack additional combat support? Be surrounded by spiders and ghosts?  That one wasn't stelar...if someone doesn't tell her don't jump off the cliff would she do it?
> 
> NP, it was good IC and those are good reasons.




Shakou's an independant spirit, and she assumes you guys can take care of yourselves, since you did it previously.  She also assumed, should you have needed the support, that you would have TOLD her so.

Granted, not I've no idea how to extricate myself from the current predicament.


----------



## Dr Simon

Theroc said:


> Str damage!?  ~RUNS AWAY~




Is that an IC action too?


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Is that an IC action too?




Haven't decided yet, because if I do that, she might hit me AGAIN!  >.>

Can a tiger tumble?  lol... that'd be a thing to see.


----------



## silveryfox

In our gaming group our "Ninja" Druid claims his Wild Shape of a Lion leaps and twists in battle, using Tumble to negate AoO, I haven't been sure how to rule that. For the moment I let him use it to disengage without provoking. 

The mental image always brings a smile to everyone at the table.


----------



## Theroc

Hrm... I'd like for Simon to let me know how he feels about me attempting that... since I am pretty sure fighting this chika alone would be a rather silly thing to do.  Particularly should I fail another Fort save.  Just glad it ain't Con damage... lol


----------



## Shayuri

By the book, anything with the Tumble skill can use it to avoid AoO's or pass through enemy squares or anything else the skill can be used for. One's humanoid-ness or tiger-ness is not in question.

Of course, I think finding a natural tiger who's trained in Tumble would be a rare thing. 

Sigfried and Roy notwithstanding.


----------



## Dr Simon

I don't think a tiger's going to be performing backflips* and the like, but I don't see why "Tumble" in this sense doesn't just mean "to move in an agile fashion to avoid attacks", so sure, go ahead. 

*I'm sure there's some Youtube footage of cats that'll prove me wrong.


----------



## Shayuri

You had to ask.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjRt4s9ISYE]YouTube - crazy tiger on skateboard[/ame]


----------



## Dr Simon

Thanks Shayuri, that was most... enlightening 

And of course, I forget that their tops are made out of rubber and their bottoms are made out of springs.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> I don't think a tiger's going to be performing backflips* and the like, but I don't see why "Tumble" in this sense doesn't just mean "to move in an agile fashion to avoid attacks", so sure, go ahead.
> 
> *I'm sure there's some Youtube footage of cats that'll prove me wrong.





Alrighty, I'll try to get the post up sometime today.


----------



## silveryfox

How often do we post IC, twice per week or something?


----------



## Shayuri

As often as we can, I'd say. We try to do it more frequently than that, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way.

Also, I've updated Annika in the RG. There's a pic now! Yaaaaay...


----------



## silveryfox

Aye aye, this is my first Pbp so it's good to know. 

Cute pic


----------



## Neurotic

Essentialy, you check when you can and respond if there is anything for you to respond to. I check twice a day on working days and sometimes not at all over weekends. In combat you post your actions for the round and wait for others unless soemthing happens that causes you to change your action


----------



## Dr Simon

I usually check in once a day except weekends and deal with any issues that need responses. Sometimes more, depending on how short the posts are and how busy I am.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> [SBLOCK=OOC]
> Total damage dealt to spider is 24, enough to kill it twice over! That's going to be a pretty devestating tactic
> [/sblock]




That tactic was one of my favorite things about this concept.  I thought it was friggin' awesome.  Granted, it's slightly difficult to pull off, I think.  But if Shakou manages to do it... it's gonna hurt.


----------



## silveryfox

Theroc said:


> That tactic was one of my favorite things about this concept.  I thought it was friggin' awesome.  Granted, it's slightly difficult to pull off, I think.  But if Shakou manages to do it... it's gonna hurt.




NINJA Tiger! All those sneak attacks are nasty.


----------



## Shayuri

No sign of Simon since the 7th. Has he posted a vacation, or are we just stalled?


----------



## Neurotic

It happens occasionaly...I'm in another game of his and that one stalled for a nuimber of times...and yet he continues it at a later time as RL allows


----------



## Shayuri

I just read his sig...he's gone until the 15th.

hee...okay, I'm embarrassed now.


----------



## Blackrat

Shayuri said:


> I just read his sig...he's gone until the 15th.
> 
> hee...okay, I'm embarrassed now.




Heh... Don't be, I was just wondering where he is. Good that you pointed it out for me


----------



## Dr Simon

And now I'm back!


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:


> And now I'm back!



Welcome back!


----------



## Dr Simon

WD: Protection from Spirits probably ought to belong on a druid's spell list. I spent ages searching for a spell called "cleave to the shadows" until finally I came across "know the shadows" in OA which is probably the one I meant. It's originally a Shugenja (divine) spell, and since the OA/LO5R shugenja are tied to the elements, it would probably make sense to allow it for druids as well.

Since Ape is a spontaneous divine caster, though, is he not limited to his "spells known" as far as spell-completion items are concerned?


----------



## Dr Simon

Theroc (via Shakou) has a good point, BTW. Don't forget that the "mission" is to stop the attacks on livestock. The Mysterious Door is probably not connected to this. Feel free to poke around with it, though. I wouldn't have put it in if I didn't expect you to.


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:


> WD: Protection from Spirits probably ought to belong on a druid's spell list. I spent ages searching for a spell called "cleave to the shadows" until finally I came across "know the shadows" in OA which is probably the one I meant. It's originally a Shugenja (divine) spell, and since the OA/LO5R shugenja are tied to the elements, it would probably make sense to allow it for druids as well.
> 
> Since Ape is a spontaneous divine caster, though, is he not limited to his "spells known" as far as spell-completion items are concerned?



Actually, no. A sorcerer without magic missle on his known list, can still cast it from a scroll. Why should divine casters be handicapped? But he needs to be able to cast spells of this level. What are the levels of "know the shadows" and "Protection from Spirits" respectively?


----------



## Dr Simon

Prot. from spirits is 1st level, shadows is 2nd.


----------



## Dr Simon

Dusty in here...

So, what the Vashti says is essentially true - it's kind of up to you (as both the players and characters) what you want to do next. I know prolonged discussions over options tend to bog PBP games down a bit, so I'd prefer a quick decision of some kind - it doesn't really matter what the decision _is_, as long as one is reached.

Obvious suggestions are:

- Take up the reward offer to investigate the Tigerskin Gorge mines.
- Follow up the letter about a Paper Lantern Gang in the Court of the Shading Willow (see Letter #1, post 772). (A Paper Lantern Gang use magic for extortion).
- Return to the spider gorge and try to get through the shempo door.

Other possibilities with less defined routes:

- Return to the Spirit World through Ropoko Gate and try to continue the Vashti's quest without the Jade Elixir.
- Further investigations into the Jade Elixir, leading to above.
- Accept the dinner invitation from Magister Ten.
- Tracking down the spellcasting spider.

- Any personal quests, or other matters arising from the game so far.


----------



## Neurotic

Less defined routes, I think, should be left to 'accidental' discoveries that bring to front those side quests (such as ravings of madman about mixing  spring water with ground jade in blood of immortal to create jade elixir)...

Other than that, Mystal would (in order of priority)
- immediately track down spider spellcaster because it does not do to leave revengful relatives of the ones you slay.
- help poor people against paper lantern gang - because being abused is something he understands, but he fought his way out and more likely then not, he'd try to incite people to take care of their problem instead of simply solving it.
- Tigersking Gorge - because it pays.
- Dinner with power players - because it pays, but he's uncomfortable among 'big folk' and wouldn't like to be butt of jokes because it may lead to problems (poking at nobles is never good surviving technique)



PERSONAL THING:
Mystal will search around dead spiders, especially testing 'faces' of the big one. Are they hard enough to serve as bucklers or small shields for him? Or even just 'hardish' - when he gets them back to skilled craftsman, then maybe can be stiffened or overlaid one over another


----------



## Walking Dad

Answered for Ape's interest IC.


----------



## Neurotic

Didn't those attackers have some lamp on a stick? Or PCs did? I cannot recall, but if former it may tie up to lantern gang...


----------



## Dr Simon

Mystal wasn't there, but, yes, the people who tried to hold the Vashti for hostage in exchange for the statue included one person who fought with a lantern on a stick (although that could have been because that's what he was holding at the time, posing as a linkboy sent by the Vashti).

Actually... tracking down those who escaped is another option.

Anyway, by odd(?) coincidence, the lantern-bearer was killed by Growling Ape, and it is his body that has gone missing....

Paper Lantern Gangs, by the way, get their name from the custom of hanging out paper lanterns to ward off evil spirits. If you pay them, it has the same effect.


----------



## Shayuri

Out of those options, going after the paper lantern thing has Annika's vote.


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic;4993462
PERSONAL THING:
Mystal will search around dead spiders said:
			
		

> Yes, reckon you could do that. It'd be something like the rules for dragonscale, which I will research and get back to you...


----------



## Theroc

Shakou's not one to stick her neck out much, but since Gengoro vanished, Shakou cannot return to her old life, obviously... so she'll likely vote for things most aligned with her own wants first, but go along with the majority.  After all, she's closest to belonging with this group than attempting to make her way as a normal citizen.


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic:

Spider-face shield can be made, would have the same attributes as a darkwood shield, and cost 100 gp (10,000 yen) to get made. It would also be eligible for future enchantment.


----------



## Neurotic

Cool! Now I just need 8 000 yen.  Of course, having Vashti in your debt can go quite a way of getting it done for free...except for risking your life, spilling your blood, that kind of payment...

I like the idea of low magic campaigns in which MATERIALS are special and give special abilities and not magic...such as Conan the Barbarian's starmetal sword.


----------



## Dr Simon

*Jade Elixir*

Well, the quest for the Jade Elixir is over, and it was easier than you thought. You can buy it online!

Amusingly, this game comes up in a Google search _befor_e a lot of these alternative medicine sites, and you'd probably get as many health benefits from Romance of the River Kingdoms as you would from one of these.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Well, the quest for the Jade Elixir is over, and it was easier than you thought. You can buy it online!
> 
> Amusingly, this game comes up in a Google search _befor_e a lot of these alternative medicine sites, and you'd probably get as many health benefits from Romance of the River Kingdoms as you would from one of these.




Hahaha, nice!

By the way, I'm curious, is the group going to be splitting up to investigate these incidences separately, or did you have something else planned to deal with the circumstances?


----------



## Dr Simon

Well, that's up to you if you split up or not. Such circumstances are fairly easy to run in PBP, although if one party posts more slowly than the other things can get a bit out of kilter. I wouldn't say that I have anything "planned" in the sense of expecting you to follow a particular course of action. 

All of them are nasty. Oops, did I just type that?


----------



## Theroc

Well, I mean, if it takes a few days for the dinner preparations, then Three-Flowers and Shakou could help with one of the other tasks with the group until it is time to meet with the Magister, no?


----------



## Dr Simon

Absolutely.


----------



## Dr Simon

From your responses suggested course of action is pretty much as the Vashti says in the IC post:

Rest overnight.
Next day: Investigate Paper Lantern Gang
2-3 days time (probably): Dinner with Magister
Afterwards: Tigerskin Mines

This assumes nothing else crops up in between....

Neurotic wants to hunt the spider shaman, which could be started at first light and, depending on what happens, return to check out the Paper Lantern Gang. Mystal lacks the Track feat and so would not be very successful by himself, but I'm happy to run with it, even run a mini solo for Neurotic if others want to follow other leads.


----------



## Neurotic

He doesn't need Track feet. All he has to do is wait overnight hidden. The thing will come back eventualy (I hope). But he lacks power to bring down the caster with stoneskin. Assuming it can recast it of course.

If others don't want to bother he goes with them. But will remember it and if the things comes after them later he will (un)characteristicaly for his race, enjoy telling them "I told you so"


----------



## Dr Simon

If you want Mystal to return overnight and wait, I can work with that. Let me know what you decide.


----------



## Neurotic

NAh, I'd just loose good night sleep. Unless others join too. It would be cool and in character, but I (the player) dislike the possibility of becoming hunted by a spider three times my size in the night. 

Of course there is always shadow jaunt and other maneuvers ... hmm... I'll talk myself into it  For now, let say Mystal appears to leave with others (he actualy turns invisible, shadow jaunts somewhere hidden and recovers those maneuvers...


----------



## Walking Dad

Uhm, Ape has the track feat, if you ask him ... later.


----------



## Dr Simon

Unless anyone has any other input I'll put up a post after the weekend on the assumption that:

Mystal returns to the spider valley and waits for the spider shaman to return. 

Everyone else (plus Mystal, depending on outcome of above) sets off the next morning to investigate the Court of the Shading Willow.


----------



## Neurotic

Well, if you think it'll be over without wasting anyone's time IC or OOC, I don't mind. Otherwise, assume Mystal followed others so everyone's ready and well rested in the morning.

We can always return (and we probably will because of the door) so it's not that important.


----------



## Shayuri

I wuz gonna say...we won't be leaving that mystery alone for long. There's just more pressing things to see to in the immediate future. 

Heck, that door might be a lead to the Elixir. After all, it's clearly not been used in ages, and the Elixir is clearly similarly hard to find.

*shrug*


----------



## Neurotic

Very well. Mystal goes with the group. Let's burn this paper gang !


----------



## Dr Simon

Updated loot in the first post of this thread, for the items that you picked up from the spiders.

Also, of interest to Blackrat primarily, but also to other who may want to try bloodline levels, I've added some Bloodline Feats to the feats section in Post 1. It might be a while before you'd get to use them, though 

Blackrat: I've been working on Bloodline levels and I've added a new option - if you have at least one level of a spirit bloodline you can choose to add a permanent one-time +2 bonus to one ability score of your choice. If you do so, you gain the (Spirit) subtype, rendering you vulnerable to any spells/effects that affect Spirits. It represents a stronger connection to the spirit world than simply taking the bloodline levels, but it's entirely optional. I'm happy to retro-fit it if you like.


----------



## Shayuri

Spirit levels, eh?

Hmm!

Of course, that would hose my spellcasting...but it's intriguing nonetheless...


----------



## Dr Simon

Oh... wait...

Some of the bloodline levels grant caster levels, but I think all of them would lose you at least one (although some also give spell-like abilities).  I'm working on getting them up as an update on the CC website, hopefully this side of Christmas.


----------



## Neurotic

Would there be mist wraith spirit which enhances swordsage levels and gives bonuses to wisdom and dexterity? With special power 'Can slay mistwraith permanently and they know it'


----------



## Neurotic

For loot, you forgot Mystal's 'faces of the spider'


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic said:


> For loot, you forgot Mystal's 'faces of the spider'




I'll add it. I was tooting up "general" loot rather than anything specific to each person. There were some healing potions from the Vashti that I've missed off, too.

I haven't done a Mist Spirit bloodline but its a potential one, probably with cold and (in)visibility related powers. I'm trying to keep them quite generic, so there wouldn't be any swordsage-related abilities, I'm afraid!


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:


> I'll add it. I was tooting up "general" loot rather than anything specific to each person. There were some healing potions from the Vashti that I've missed off, too.
> 
> I haven't done a Mist Spirit bloodline but its a potential one, probably with cold and (in)visibility related powers. I'm trying to keep them quite generic, so there wouldn't be any swordsage-related abilities, I'm afraid!



IMHO, giving a bonus to the _Initiator level_ (something the ToB classes share) would not be less generic than a bonus to the _spellcaster level_.


----------



## Neurotic

Except there are ~20 caster classes and only three initiators (not counting PrCs)


----------



## Dr Simon

Well, there's room to argue that a "+1 spellcasting level" bonus could also apply to _Initiator_ level, or _Manifestor_ level, or any other system variant, but that would be down to the GM and players to sort out on a local level.

My feeling is that when presenting a rules add-on you should only assume use and possession of the core rules, unless specifically aiming for an "Expanded Book of Nine Swords" or whatever. Plus, there's that whole Open Content thing....

Which is really to say not to expect anything specifically designed for Swordsages, or Binders, or Duskblades, etc. as I can't legally refer to 'em!

Addendum to that thought: Also, I personally dislike the ethos that crept in towards the end of 3.5E, that moved from options that, whilst they suited some classes better than others, were still more or less available to all, towards options that were specifically geared to one character class, or even one type of build of character class. Plus they explicitly told you in the books *how* to best build a character. 

There's a column by Monte Cook where he outlines one of the design decisions in creating 3rd Ed. Sure, everyone eventually figures that taking Weapon Focus (longsword) is a good choice for a fighter, Toughness is almost a must for a Wizard, and that Magic Missile will see more use than Animate Rope, etc., but *discovering* that is the "hidden" game, and I think all those "how to build a Ruby Knight Vindicator" stuff that they added in for 3.5 kind of killed it.

Sorry, bit of a rant there! Not aimed at any of you!


----------



## Walking Dad

No problem 

BTW, that are fun discoveries by MC. On the wizard 3.5 CO boards, both Weapon Focus and Toughness are considered weak. And in my own game here, a cleric used animate rope for great effect as a single target entangling spell 

And that is part of the fun with my heavy house ruled druid I play here. Nobody to tell one what options are good, because he is one of a kind.


----------



## Dr Simon

Weapon Focus and Toughness probably are pretty weak compared to newer feats. I like the Pathfinder version of Toughness that keeps on giving, but it's not the most exiting option, I must admit.

And hooray for non-standard options. It's almost tempting to create a setting without all the typical spells, to force spellcasters to be more creative.

Anyway, looking through the art forum I found this picture by Storn, released under Creative Commons, that fits Aru Leng, the "young Vashti", quite well. I darkened the hair.


----------



## Walking Dad

Very nice picture!


----------



## Dr Simon

It's from this thread, so swipe it I did. He's got some other Asia-inspired works on there that aren't too obviously just samurai, which I may use at point as well.


----------



## Theroc

In the IC, I'm sorta waiting to see if there's someone Shakou can flank with or move to prep for a charge next round as a Fnoi Tiger.  I think that might be mildly demoralizing to a group of thugs, seeing half the group transform and maul them, lol

Edit: And, as I mentioned earlier, Simon, I'd be very interested in a Spirit Bloodline based on furthering Shakou's shapeshifting abilities.


----------



## Dr Simon

Re: the discussion in IC, I think they got a bit hung up on "squares" in 3.5 compared to 3.0, this strikes me as a bit daft - they're useful tools for determining position, and quite useful on PbP, but as far as I'm concerned, a 30 ft. move is a 30 ft. move and doesn't require breaking down into "squares". Just so y'all know. I like to try to keep things by the book because I like seeing how far the d20 rules can be pushed, but I prefer free-roving combat to a game of chess!

And for those of you who haven't yet noticed, I've put in some character portrait requests in this thread. You might want to take a look and advise on your ideas of your character. Shakou, Mystal and Three Flowers are up so far.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Re: the discussion in IC, I think they got a bit hung up on "squares" in 3.5 compared to 3.0, this strikes me as a bit daft - they're useful tools for determining position, and quite useful on PbP, but as far as I'm concerned, a 30 ft. move is a 30 ft. move and doesn't require breaking down into "squares". Just so y'all know. I like to try to keep things by the book because I like seeing how far the d20 rules can be pushed, but I prefer free-roving combat to a game of chess!




So, does this mean Shakou can charge along a diagonal in your game?  I wanna make sure I did not get your overall message confused. Nevermind, saw your post in the IC



			
				Dr Simon said:
			
		

> And for those of you who haven't yet noticed, I've put in some character portrait requests in this thread. You might want to take a look and advise on your ideas of your character. Shakou, Mystal and Three Flowers are up so far.




I hadn't noticed.  Do you need me in there for anything in particular, or was my description/image enough?


----------



## Dr Simon

Theroc said:


> I hadn't noticed.  Do you need me in there for anything in particular, or was my description/image enough?





No, just in case you wanted to suggest any changes to the artists for concepts that hadn't come through in the description.


----------



## Theroc

I'll check it out sometime then.


----------



## Dr Simon

Are the combat maps of Shading Willow Court working for people? They look fine to me but I used a different computer today and it looked terrible, with all the squares misaligned and squashed.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Are the combat maps of Shading Willow Court working for people? They look fine to me but I used a different computer today and it looked terrible, with all the squares misaligned and squashed.




Sometimes they look a little off, but there's good enough for me to have a pretty good general idea.

Though I am rather confused which of the thugs is the leader.  One post you had the leader engage Three Flowers(who got skewered), then the next it seemed like you had Shakou pounce the leader... and I thought Shakou attacked a thug different than TF's target.  So far that's the most confusion I've had.


----------



## Neurotic

That part confused me too. Other then that, it's all clear. And never a glitch with the map. Try firefox if you're using IE. IE uses non-standard box-model in which panels on the page misalign sometimes...


----------



## Dr Simon

I usually use Firefox, it was via IE that it looked wierd. Except that it look okay through some version of IE. Oh well.

As to the thug confusion, #1 is/was the leader.  #2 was already attacking Three Flowers, and was the one who got skewered. The leader also stepped up to attack Three Flowers and, since you said Shakou was going for #1 ... 

(The leader had withstood some prior attacks, the others are pretty much one-hit wonders).

Now there is just #3, next to Annika and Ape, and #5 by himself in the middle of the courtyard. The others are all back near their lair building.


----------



## Theroc

I'm slightly confused by your attack rolls for Shakou, Simon.

Shakou has 16 strength in 'Leopard' form, which amounts to a +3 to melee attack and damage rolls, as well as 2 BAB.  That's +5 to hit.  Why did your rolls say +0?  I might be just missing something, I just thought I'd doublecheck, as I do have Shakous 'Cat form' statblock below her regular one in the RG.  I also probably missed anyway, but I just wanted to clarify for the future.


----------



## Dr Simon

Secondary natural attack , -5. (Bite is primary)

I believe it makes no difference even if you use it as the sole attack, but I could be wrong.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Secondary natural attack , -5. (Bite is primary)
> 
> I believe it makes no difference even if you use it as the sole attack, but I could be wrong.




Ah, you're correct, I completely forgot.


----------



## Dr Simon

What are everyone's thoughts on converting this game to Pathfinder?


----------



## Shayuri

I would burst into tears of gratitude. 

Annika would be awesome as a fire elemental bloodline sorceress. I wouldn't even need that extra spell feat anymore. And I'd have more combat options than just, "I magic missile." ... "I magic missile again." ... "Okay, I'm out of slots, I turn into an eagle and hope I don't die."


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> What are everyone's thoughts on converting this game to Pathfinder?




I wouldn't have much issue, though I'd be confused how the NainekChai would convert into pathfinder.


----------



## Neurotic

I don't think swordsages are converted, but I don't see pathfinder is much different ... there are clarifications and simplifications of rules and small changes in feats...therefore, no special reason to change. And no special reason not to.

Vote undecided


----------



## Blackrat

Not too familiar with PF but I do have the PFSRD bookmarked so; ok. I think 3F will need the most converting though, since pretty much everything with him is mutual homebrewing  Or then he won't need much at all...


----------



## Theroc

Well, if I understand correctly, PF buffed the core classes.  So, 3F would get a bit of a buff for his first two levels, and the rest would need tweaking, methinks.


----------



## Walking Dad

I think, Growling Ape has the most tinkered class...

monk abilities instead of wild shape

skill bonus instead animal companion...


Suggestion: We keep

Gain
Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger)*, swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).

Lose
Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions). 

* we changed this to for martial arts bonus feats.

and change the spiritual guide to access to the air domain (nature bond in Pathfinder).

---

I would also like to keep the spontaneous casting, with just adding the domain spells to my spells known list.


----------



## Dr Simon

Races: Probably wouldn't change. I know all races get an extra +2 to ability scores in PF, but I'd probably leave them as they are. I may ignore the "favoured class" mechanic since I wasn't using favoured classes anyway. Everyone has a greater than normal number of hit points, so no need for the extra one.

I think the biggest changes would hit Annika (all the extra Sorcerer stuff), Shakou (who would gain a rogue talent) and Growling Ape (where the Nature's Bond feature replaces animal companion, although I'd be happy with keeping the spirit companion). Swordsage obviously would remain the same, and I think most of the alterations we did with Ape would stay the same. Three Flowers would be unaffected - any paladin changes come at later levels. Bloodline levels will probably be unchanged, save for skills.

Otherwise, some feats might alter, and skill will need a bit of re-jigging.


----------



## Shayuri

I have to admit, most of my enthusiasm comes from the prospect of not running out of 'ammo' _every single combat._ 

But that's a significant amount of enthusiasm there. Plus, you know, the chance to mix it up a bit. Fire bolt here, magic missile there, a splash of Burning Hands... That appeals more than spamming magic missile.

Which I admit, is to some extent my own fault for having made a sorceror instead of a wizard. But I like sorcerors. *pout*

(^_^)


----------



## Theroc

Shakou will also get a die size HP bump.  D6 becomes D8.

3F will be unaffected until he takes his third Paladin level.

So, yeah.  I'm down for a conversion, methinks.  Let's me stack more nasty stuff on my charging pounce flank attacks!  "By the way, not only did I hit you for 2d6 extra damage 5 times, but you'll be bleeding for 2HP a round now until you heal yourself..."


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:


> ...
> Growling Ape (where the Nature's Bond feature replaces animal companion, although I'd be happy with keeping the spirit companion)...




We could keep the spirit companion as an narrative element. Or we could convert the 'Spirit' domain  and allow it for druids:

[sblock=Pathfinder Spirit Domain]

Spirit Domain (free to Shamans, available to Clerics and Druids for a shamanic-flavored cleric/druid).

Granted Power: You gain the aid of a spirit companion and talk to spirits in their tongue. Free proficiency in Speak Spirit Speech.

Spirits Advise (Sp): You can communicate with your spirit companion as a swift action, getting a sacred bonus on on Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (spirits), Perception, and Survival checks equal to half your cleric level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

(Still working on 8th level power)
Spirit Warrior (Su): Starting 8th level, any weapon you hold gains ‘Ghost Touch’. Also incorporeal creatures attempting to make a Touch Attack on you must hit your normal AC instead (i.e., all your bonuses to AC are ‘Ghost Touch’ too).

1-Detect Spirits*
2-Protection From Spirits*
3-Magic Circle Against Spirits*
4-Dismissal
5-Commune (with Spirits)**
6-Forbiddance*
7-Ethereal Jaunt
8-Etherealness
9-Astral Projection

*These works as Det./Prot from Evil etc. except that they work specifically against creatures with the Spirit descriptor
**As Commune, but the caster is communing with powerful spirits rather than a deity. In Conclave, there's little difference.[/sblock]


----------



## Dr Simon

That would work. It might be useful to have someone with abilities that affect spirits, especially without Jar'Thol.


----------



## Dr Simon

Rules for bloodline levels are now posted in PDF form on the Creative Conclave website (follow the World of Conclave link in my sig). Go check 'em out if you're interested in this option for your character. Any comments/suggestions welcome.


----------



## Theroc

lol, I saw the beast bloodline, but then was like, "Aww... it doesn't help if I can ALREADY get nat weapons..." 

Well, maybe, since I can get INA as a feat.  It's a shame I cannot get multi-attack, however.


----------



## Dr Simon

Theroc said:


> lol, I saw the beast bloodline, but then was like, "Aww... it doesn't help if I can ALREADY get nat weapons..."
> 
> Well, maybe, since I can get INA as a feat.  It's a shame I cannot get multi-attack, however.




Hm, Multiattack probably ought to be on that list. The difference with the claw and bite features would be that they are available in all forms (as this isn't a class purely for nai-nek-chai), but it's probably a very minor enhancement for a tiger nai-nek-chai.  I'm still pondering a sort of "nai-nek-chai master" prestige class, although the shapechanger from OA might work, allowing multiple forms, expanded types of alternate form and other such boosts.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Hm, Multiattack probably ought to be on that list. The difference with the claw and bite features would be that they are available in all forms (as this isn't a class purely for nai-nek-chai), but it's probably a very minor enhancement for a tiger nai-nek-chai.  I'm still pondering a sort of "nai-nek-chai master" prestige class, although the shapechanger from OA might work, allowing multiple forms, expanded types of alternate form and other such boosts.




Warshaper from Complete Warrior is also one to look into.

And yeah, I got the change, but Shakou would use her shortswords in close combat in her human form if she had to, but chances are if she's caught in melee, she'll swap into her tiger form.


----------



## Walking Dad

added an 8th level power in the above post.


----------



## Dr Simon

A note on _yaama_:

Since, I suddenly realised, you probably aren't all as well-versed in the minutae of Conclave as I am , I thought I ought to add a bit more on the use of the drug _yaama_.

Yaama comes from the far-off "Empire" of Fon, and comes in several varieties. Golden Yaama is a yellowy powder, usually burnt in bubble pipes, and the fumes inhaled. It is a mild narcotic, producing a vague euphoric sense of well-being whilst diminishing the user's attention to the world around him. Not very addictive, its use is legal throughout Imperial and post-Imperial lands.

Black yaama is a dark resin, gained from harvesting the yaama flowers at a later stage of development. Its fumes are acrid, so it is commonly applied by melting some of the resin onto acupuncture needles which are then inserted under the skin. Black yaama gives a much more intense experience and is highly addictive, hence it is generally illegal.


----------



## Neurotic

Yeah, I figured it's some drug addiction, I just didn't think to take what I took to be remains (junk parts) of the drug. I took the chest so we can follow the mark...

And we avoid potential trouble with guards if we don't have anything on us


----------



## Dr Simon

I've put a summary of the game so far in the first post of this thread (under Story So far spoiler block), as I realise that a lot has happened in a couple of years real-time play, and a lot of things relate to other things (even if it hasn't become clear yet).

WD: I didn't respond to your Pathfinder suggestions, but generally I approve. I think the 8th level power is a bit too powerful to be constant, but I'd be happy for a limited number of times per day (usual guideline seems to be either half level or 3+Wis bonus rounds per day).

Which reminds me:

Time to Level Up!  Although there's still some loose ends, considering it will take time to level up to level 4 _and_ convert to Pathfinder we may as well start now.

If you don't own the rules, they are mostly here for free. I don't think anybody's character gets shafted by the changes, at most you will stay more or less the same (Mystal Mar, for example, since Swordsage has no conversion) barring a few skills - you can redistribute skill points from, for example, the amalgamation of Spot and Listen into Perception.


----------



## Neurotic

What would be favored class for shal'sam'ai? If monk would be among them, would it apply to swordsage? Since the classes are very similar...

I need to brush up on my pathfinder-fu - Edmond is last I did and it was some time ago...


----------



## Walking Dad

The 8th level power was based on a class ability from the Spirit Shaman (Comp Divine). I think it would be a bit week for 1/2 level  / rounds per day. Perhaps minutes?

Wiould you allow the 'lesser vigor' spell from the Spell compendium? IMHO, fast healing is more in-theme for druids, than channeling positive energy.


----------



## Dr Simon

Walking Dad said:


> The 8th level power was based on a class ability from the Spirit Shaman (Comp Divine). I think it would be a bit week for 1/2 level  / rounds per day. Perhaps minutes?




Well, comparing it to the other 8th level Clerical powers in PF, no, I'd say rounds, although checking again I think a number equal to level (they don't have to be consecutive).



Walking Dad said:


> Wiould you allow the 'lesser vigor' spell from the Spell compendium? IMHO, fast healing is more in-theme for druids, than channeling positive energy.




I think so, if you give me the details. Although, the PF druid doesn't "channel positive energy" anyway, if you mean like the cleric.


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic said:


> What would be favored class for shal'sam'ai? If monk would be among them, would it apply to swordsage? Since the classes are very similar...
> 
> I need to brush up on my pathfinder-fu - Edmond is last I did and it was some time ago...




It would probably be druid and one other, but I think I decided not to use the "favoured class" element of PF as I wasn't using the 3.5 version either (i.e multi-classing has no XP penalty).


----------



## Shayuri

Suddenly Annika is engulfed in a golden halo of light, as she levitates a few feet off the ground and revolves around in a full circle before settling back down.

**LEVEL UP**

Is it okay if I 'retrain' the 3rd level feat I took, since it grants spells that don't even exist in Pathfinder...and really, the Pathfinder rules adequately sum up the 'fire spirit' concept just as well without feat support.


----------



## Dr Simon

Shayuri said:


> Suddenly Annika is engulfed in a golden halo of light, as she levitates a few feet off the ground and revolves around in a full circle before settling back down.
> 
> **LEVEL UP**
> 
> Is it okay if I 'retrain' the 3rd level feat I took, since it grants spells that don't even exist in Pathfinder...and really, the Pathfinder rules adequately sum up the 'fire spirit' concept just as well without feat support.




Well, I don't think you ever used it so I don't see why not.


----------



## Shayuri

hee, no...I was too busy blowing all my spell slots on Shield and Magic Missile. 

Oh man, this is so much nicer. 

Also, what do you want to do about that 'healing' spell she took. The one where she converts damage to nonlethal damage?


----------



## Dr Simon

Shayuri said:


> hee, no...I was too busy blowing all my spell slots on Shield and Magic Missile.
> 
> Oh man, this is so much nicer.
> 
> Also, what do you want to do about that 'healing' spell she took. The one where she converts damage to nonlethal damage?




Again, I don't think you ever used it so you can change it if you like, or keep it (since otherwise only Growling Ape has healing). No biggie to convert it.


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:


> Well, comparing it to the other 8th level Clerical powers in PF, no, I'd say rounds, although checking again I think a number equal to level (they don't have to be consecutive).
> Sounds a bit better  it's powerlevel also directly relates to the number of incorporeal foes you are sending after us
> 
> I think so, if you give me the details. Although, the PF druid doesn't "channel positive energy" anyway, if you mean like the cleric.



I send you a PM regarding the spell. And all 'cure' spells channel positive energy. See the spell description of CLW:



> When laying your hand upon a living  creature, you channel positive energy that




underlined by me.

BTW, I prefer this site for my Pathfinder online needs:

Pathfinder SRD (Pathfinder_OGC)


----------



## Shayuri

Moar questions!

Are we changing our hit points to match Pathfinder, or keeping the Conclave rules? Similarly, do you want us to "rebuy" our attributes using Pathfinder point buy (I forget if it's different or not)?


----------



## Dr Simon

Spell looks good to me, and that's a much better PF SRD website, thanks.

As for the "channel positive energy" for cure spells, I think that can be considered more fluff than actual rules - I see Ape as not so much a druid in the "sickles and mistletoe" sense, more a magician who works with the natural world (and the Druid class is the closest we can come to model this). So his cure spells could channel the fertility of the earth, or the power of nature, or some such effect. I don't think of Conclave as having planes of positive and negative energy like the Great Wheel cosmology.


----------



## Walking Dad

It is considered crunch in the way it damages negative energy creatures = undead. But the power of nature abhorring undead is a good explanation as that.

Seconding Shay's question and voting for keeping the attributes as they are, including ignoring the racial ability bonuses from Pathfinder.


----------



## Dr Simon

Missed those:

Keep hit points and attributes as they are.


----------



## Dr Simon

Notes on Pathfinder-izing the other characters:

Shakou - rogue hit dice is now d8, so these can be re-rolled (keep highest of old and new values). Skills need to be reconfigured in line with PF ones (you'll get more, essentially), and you have at least on rogue ability, two if you take 4th level rogue.

Mystal Mar - no change to class (although hit dice now depends on BAB - d6 for half, d8 for 3/4 and d10 for full progression). Skills need to be re-jigged. Since Spellcraft now includes Concentration, I'm willing to allow Martial Lore to include Concentration in the same fashion.

Three Flowers - some changes to smite and lay on hands abilities, largely for the better, otherwise no change (check skills, but I don't think any of yours are affected).

Also, don't forget to calculate Combat Maneuvre Bonus (BAB+Str modifier) and Combat Maneuvre Defence (10+BAB+Str modifer +Dex modifier).


----------



## Neurotic

There are maneuvers that replace str with dex for tripping (Mighty Throw or clever positioning and some other(s)) and give +4 to the check (essentially size increase)

Should I just note it with maneuver? Or you'd prefer to ban it? To lower bonus to +2 to be more inline with improved trip?

Do you have Tome of Battle?


----------



## Dr Simon

Swapping attributes is no problem - there are even some feats that do this (Agile Maneuvres, for example). As for the bonus, we may have to examine those on a case by case basis. The Improved Trip etc. feats in PF have a decreased bonus, but they also provide a bonus to defence against such attacks, so we could probably choose between the 3.5 version (+4 , no defence) vs. PF (+2 attack, +2 defence) depending on how the maneuvre is described. I have got ToB, yes.


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon, can you please roll the d8 for the new HP? I prefer letting the DM do this roll. Also working on converting the character. Sall problem with lesser vigor -> I can neither choose a new level 1 spell nor replace an old on 4th level.


----------



## Neurotic

So we get 1d8 roll to GRACE, and add 1 to HEALTH?

Mystal level upsummary:
+1 BAB/Ref/Will
+1 WIS
Drain Vitality maneuver
Insightful strike, giving bonus WIS damage to shadow strike maneuvers
skill reassignment left me with extreme stealth (+17!) and better class skills that had 1 or two points (profession and heal)

Please roll Heal check (+8) for Mystal to see if he can stabilize/help torture victim. If it needs stabilizing and Mystal succeeds victim recovers 1d6 hp due to Healing Hands skill trick.


----------



## strawhat

According to the first post, spots are available, I am interested and would like to play. If allowed I would like to play a Human Psion with Shen lung bloodline.


----------



## Dr Simon

Hmm, possible.  Psionic characters in this setting see psionics as an internalised form of magic (most likely the Way of Six Energies, see here, but other options for "wierd magic" are possible, see here for example.).

I don't have rules for draconic bloodlines yet, I would suggest checking out the bloodline levels PDF and seeing if something there fits.

Have a read, get back to me with an idea and we'll take it from there.


----------



## Shayuri

Are we still doing the Pathfinder conversion? Might be tricky convertng psionics, since that's a whole separate "magic" system.


----------



## Dr Simon

Have they done a PF psionic system yet?  I think Paizo are working on it, but nothing published, so we'd have to go with the 3.5 stuff.  The main issue that I can see is that PF spellcasters have tended to get bumped up in power with a few "per day" class abilities. My gut, though, would be to use the 3.5 version of psion and see how it plays. My gut also tells me not to expect too much commitment from someone with currently one post on Enworld, but I'm willing to give them a chance.

Yes, by the way, to Pathfinder-isation. Anyone not yet levelled their character to 4th level and converted to PF, please do so (I think it's Blackrat and Theroc, both of whom have scaled back PbP participation recently).


----------



## Walking Dad

I still need to do it. Can you roll the HD (1d8) for me again? Also, do we keep grace and health?


----------



## strawhat

OK, looking over the materials I am still interested in playing a Psion, one focused on Ibhesh(Psychometabolism) As for the bloodlines, I think I'll pass on them. You wouldn't allow the half-dragon would you? I think I'll go with human as a race.


----------



## Dr Simon

WD: Sorry, got a 2. Yes, I'm going to keep the Grace/Health aspect. The 2 points get added to your Grace, and add any Con modifiers to Health, +1 for the new level.

Strawhat:  Okay. To bring Psion into line with Pathfinder rules, make the following changes: d6 hit die, Class skills: Acrobatics, Autohypnosis, Craft (any), Heal, Knowledge (any), Profession (any), Psicraft*.

*Psicraft includes Concentration for Psionic abilities, same as Spellcraft does for normal magic. At the moment, all other aspects of psionics remains as per 3.5.

Character creation is addressed in the first post but, briefly, 4th level character, 25 point buy (+1 for fourth level). Hit points are divided into Health (equal to Con, plus Con modifers for each level, plus 1 for each level) and Grace (the class hit die, maximum for first, you can roll on Invis Castle or get me to roll the remaining 3).

Pathfinder skills and skill calculation method, Pathfinder feats - you'll have 1st, 3rd and human bonus. I'm not using the favoured class aspect of PF, nor do you get the additional +2 ability score (to bring you in line with the others who didn't either).

I'll sort out money/equipment later, but the characters are somewhat poor and underequipped compared to standard levels.


----------



## Walking Dad

2 is better than 1 

About psionics:

You could look here:

Psionic Feats Preview 

Alpha Release -  Psion Class 

Alpha Release  - Psionic Skills 

Alpha Release - 1st Level Psion/Wilder Powers


----------



## Dr Simon

Hm, but still seems a bit experimental, I'll stick with the 3.5 stuff until Dreamscarred get things a bit more sorted. Noticed that it's a *28 *point buy, also should note that I'll be using magic/psionic transparency (which should be obvious as "psionics" are just another form of magic in this setting).


----------



## Walking Dad

It is experimental. Just wanted to give you a second opinion.


----------



## Shayuri

Speaking of equipment...I just realized that I haven't updated Annika's inventory in forever, basically.

I'm pretty sure she hasn't gotten any items, but how much money per person do we have right about now?

Also, it looks like I need an HP roll...three, in fact, since they're d6's now...

...dagnabbit. This would be a great roll in GURPS...

Sigh. 3d6 = 6 sparkly, shiny hit points. Roll Lookup

We're gonna need a bigger meatshield.


----------



## Dr Simon

First post, there is a spiler block titled "Loot" which details everything that you have collected so far. I'd better check if there is anything to be had from the Paper Lantern Gang.


----------



## Shayuri

Yee!

Okay, I added up the 110, the 50, and the 959gp treasures and divided them by 5 to get 223.8 gp per person involved. I'm not 100% sure there were 5 of us present for the spider...that's where we brought in some new peeps I think, so I'll leave that number as a lingering hypothetical for now.

As for the rest, is anyone other than Annika able to use those "scrolls?" and if so, which ones do you want?

I'm tempted to switch Transfer Injury for Identify...since we have no one who's really well-trained at Spellcraft to my knowledge.


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:


> WD: Sorry, got a 2. Yes, I'm going to keep the Grace/Health aspect. The 2 points get added to your Grace, and add any Con modifiers to Health, +1 for the new level.
> 
> ...




Where goes the +1?


----------



## Dr Simon

Walking Dad said:


> Where goes the +1?




Health.


----------



## Dr Simon

Characters present in spider battle: Annika, Growling Ape, Shakou, Three Flowers and Mystal Marr. I don't think we need to count Whisper. 

Ape has (reasonable) Spellcraft now, as does Annika. Now that we are using PF you *can* identify items with just this and _detect magic_, the main advantage of _identify_ is a +10 bonus to the check.

WD: By my reckoning Ape's spells per day should be 6/5/4 - you get the standard 4th level druid allotment (5/3/2), +1 per level (to compensate for spontaneous SNA, basically), plus Wisdom bonus spells.

Also you need to select one more 1st and 2nd level spell. Spells Known should be 6/3/1 but you get SNA as a bonus, plus (due to a long chain of replacement abilities!) you get the spirit domain spells as bonus.

Otherwise, I think those who have levelled and PF'ed confused so far look good. Some interesting possibilities.

As for swapping out Lesser Transfer Wounds, that would leave you with very little healing ability. Didn't WD want a fast healing spell uptopic, though? I'd grant that.


----------



## Dr Simon

Neurotic said:


> Please roll Heal check (+8) for Mystal to see if he can stabilize/help torture victim. If it needs stabilizing and Mystal succeeds victim recovers 1d6 hp due to Healing Hands skill trick.




Sorry, missed this.

I rolled Heal 19+8=27, healing 1d6=6 points, so you get him on his feet again.


----------



## strawhat

[sblock=Brother Gold]


		Code:
	

Name: Brother Gold
Class:Psion(Ibhesh)
Race:Human
Size:Medium
Gender:Male

Str: 08 -1 00          Level: 4        XP: XXXX
Dex: 14 +2 06          BAB: +2         Health: 20 (12+4+4)
Con: 12 +1 04          Grapple: +1     Grace: 17 (6+3d6)  
Int: 16 +3 08 +1@4     Speed: 30'      Power Points: 23/23 (17+6)
Wis: 13 +1 05          Init: +2        Spell Res: -
Cha: 10 +0 02          ACP: -0         Power Save: 17 

                   Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total
Armor:              10    +0    +0    +2    +0    +0    +0    12
Touch: 12              Flatfooted: 10

                         Base   Mod  Misc  Total
Fort:                      1    +1          +2
Ref:                       1    +2          +3
Will:                      4    +1          +5

Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical
Staff                     +2     1d6-2      20-20x2
Dagger                    +2     1d4-2      19-20x2
XXXX                      +X     XdXX+X     XX-XXxX
XXXX                      +X     XdXX+X     XX-XXxX

Languages:Low Imperial, High Imperial

Abilities: Psionics

Feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Sacred Vow, Rapid Metabolism, Improved Psicrystal

Skill Points:       Max Ranks: 4/2
Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total
Psicraft                   4    +3    +3    +10
Autohypnosis               4    +1    +3    +8
Heal                       4    +1    +3    +8
Profession(Cook)           4    +1    +3    +8
Knowledge(history)         4    +3    +3    +10
Knowledge(psionics)        4    +3    +3    +10
Knowledge(Local)           4    +3    +3    +10
Perception                 2    +1          +3
Sense Motive               2    +1          +3
Knowledge(Religion)        4    +3    +3    +10
Knowledge(nobility)        2    +3    +3    +8
Diplomacy                  0    +0    +4    +4



Equipment:               Cost  Weight
Staff                    --yen  4lb
Backpack                200yen  2lb
	2 Days Trail Rations    100yen  2lb
	Waterskin               100yen  4lb
	Mstrwrk Cooking Tools  5000yen  1lb
	x5Tindertwig            500yen  -lb
	Sewing Needle            50yen  -lb
	Ink			 80yen  -lb
Bedroll                  10yen  5lb
x2 torches                2yen  2lb
Dagger	                200yen

Total Weight:20lb      Money: 2200Yen

                          Lgt   Med   Hvy  Lift  Push
Max Weight:              26lb  53lb  80lb  80lb  160lb

Age: 18
Height: 5'10"
Weight: 140lb
Eyes: Gold
Hair: Shaved Bald
Skin: Gold Tint

[/sblock]
Appearance: Brother Gold stands out with bright gold iris' and a  Green goldstone that floats around his head. He wears the simple clothing of a low class member. Another noticable feature is a large, multi-colored dragon tatoo that starts at his head and winds around his body. [sblock=image]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Tatoo
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Found on deviantart[/sblock]

[sblock=Background]Named so for his gold eyes and kind heart, Gold was taken in by the local narvinda young, and trained in the Way of Six Energies. With a love of helping and defending the village, ibhesh-yana was a well suited focus for the boy. When he wasn't busy with training, Gold spent time reading books of many subjects. Now as a adult, now as an adult, Brother Gold travels around doing good and learning what he can of the world.
[/sblock]


Powers:
(Cost:1 pp)1st lvl: Thicken Skin, My light, Energy Ray, Inertial Armor, Mind thrust
(Cost:3 pp)2nd lvl: Animal Affinity, Swarm of Crystals, Body Equilibrium, Cloud Mind

[sblock=Psicrystal]


		Code:
	

Diminutive Construct
Personality:Friendly(+2 Diplomacy)
HD:4
Health 10 
Grace: 8

Init:+4		Speed: 30ft	Climb:20ft*
Base Attack:+0	Grapple:-17
Fort:2		Ref:3		Will:5

Special: Construct traits, hardness 8, psicystal granted abilities(inproved evasion, personality, self propusion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link), deliver touch powers

                   Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total
Armor:              10    +0    +0    +2*   +4    +2    +0    18
Touch: 18              Flatfooted: 16

Str:1*
Dex:15*
Con:-
Int:6
Wis:10
Cha:10

Feats: Alertness

Skills:
Climb+14*
Listen+6
Move Silently+6
Search+2
Spot+6
*with self-propusion ability activated






[/sblock]

 for grace: 3d6=11


----------



## Walking Dad

Dr Simon said:


> ...
> 
> Ape has (reasonable) Spellcraft now, as does Annika. Now that we are using PF you *can* identify items with just this and _detect magic_, the main advantage of _identify_ is a +10 bonus to the check.
> 
> WD: By my reckoning Ape's spells per day should be 6/5/4 - you get the standard 4th level druid allotment (5/3/2), +1 per level (to compensate for spontaneous SNA, basically), plus Wisdom bonus spells.
> 
> Also you need to select one more 1st and 2nd level spell. Spells Known should be 6/3/1 but you get SNA as a bonus, plus (due to a long chain of replacement abilities!) you get the spirit domain spells as bonus.
> 
> Otherwise, I think those who have levelled and PF'ed confused so far look good. Some interesting possibilities.
> 
> As for swapping out Lesser Transfer Wounds, that would leave you with very little healing ability. Didn't WD want a fast healing spell uptopic, though? I'd grant that.





Oh, Ape is better than I thought 

I will definitely choose Lesser Vigor as level 1 spell. Can I take Flamig sphere as level 2 spell, but changed to electricity damage?
(Would call it 'Ball Lightning')


----------



## Shayuri

True on the healing ability.

And oddly, Transfer Wounds kind of fits my notion of Annika. A hint of that 'renewal' aspect that is otherwise understated...


----------



## Dr Simon

Strawhat - looks good, I'll write you into the IC thread shortly.

WD - yes to "ball lightning"

Shayuri - true, it does fit with the "phoenix" idea of Annika.


----------



## Walking Dad

> As for whether the extra damage from either sapphire nightmare blade or  Focussed Strike would affect an undead, I'm going to say that it does.  It's not precision damage (ie sneak attack) as such, more putting your  own energy into to attack.




Undead are no longer automatically immune against percision damage... but incorporeal ones are.


----------



## Dr Simon

Oh yeah, keep forgetting to check Pathfinder for differences!


----------



## Theroc

Um... hi guys.  Sorry about my vanishing act before.  How's the game going?


----------



## Dr Simon

Theroc, good to have you back!

You've not missed much, things have been trundling along slow and steady. The group tracked the rest of the paper lantern gang to an underground cistern and are busy finishing them off. I'm sure it wouldn't be too much of stretch of Shakou were to arrive in pursuit.

That said, I'm away for a week , but feel free to catch up IC.


----------



## Theroc

Haha, Shakou got separated and skulked about, and later tracked the party down?  Sounds good to me.  Will have to doublecheck if Shakou was in human or mini-tiger form last I posted.


----------



## Theroc

I think I got confused.  Was I just supposed to pick up right away, or were you going to tell me when to enter, Simon?  I've been waiting for an 'invitation' it seems.  Did I get the wrong idea?


----------



## Dr Simon

Don't worry, I got confused too. A move of offices has discombobulated my games a bit. I'll bring you back into the IC. Shakou can be in either of her forms, I assume the tiger form is more usual for when action is likely.


----------



## Theroc

Dr Simon said:


> Don't worry, I got confused too. A move of offices has discombobulated my games a bit. I'll bring you back into the IC. Shakou can be in either of her forms, I assume the tiger form is more usual for when action is likely.




Yep.  My main concern if she shows up in tiger form would be: Where is her stuff?  

Edit: Also, can Shakou get a general idea of how injured the fleeing man is?  My desire is to have her pounce him and attempt to force submission similarly to how many animals establish dominance.  Pounce+Teeth to throat without puncturing.


----------



## Theroc

Sorry, missed your post amongst the other threads.  Will reply tomorrow evening probably, as I have company.


----------



## Dr Simon

Theroc said:


> Yep.  My main concern if she shows up in tiger form would be: Where is her stuff?
> 
> Edit: Also, can Shakou get a general idea of how injured the fleeing man is?  My desire is to have her pounce him and attempt to force submission similarly to how many animals establish dominance.  Pounce+Teeth to throat without puncturing.




Good question about her stuff...

The fleeing man seems uninjured.


----------



## Neurotic

She carried the stuff in a duffel bag in her mouth or around neck/tail? 

Or changed just before she found us and her stuff is somewhere in the hall?


----------



## Theroc

CMB&CMD?

Did we switch to pathfinder while I wasn't looking?


----------



## Neurotic

Theroc said:


> CMB&CMD?
> 
> Did we switch to pathfinder while I wasn't looking?




Yes, it's old news already


----------



## Walking Dad

Ape can cast Summon Nature's Ally.

Shall he try:

Elemental (small)
Giant frog
octopus
squid

I would say squid, because it is fast and a good grappler.


----------



## Theroc

Neurotic said:


> Yes, it's old news already




Er... I wonder how difficult Shakou will be to convert to PF then... as we were using 3.5 when I vanished.


----------



## Walking Dad

Rather easy. The links above lead to a site with all the pathfinder rules.

Race and abilities don't change, Dr Simon ruled.

You add the extras to your class, CMB/CMD, get a favored class bonus. (and maybe have to revisit your skill section... ok, this is some work, but it would look better after you have done it )


----------



## Dr Simon

Converting Shakou to PF (We were about to do this going up to 4th level, which I think Shakou is eligible for as well):

PF Rogue

BAB and saves remain the same as 3.5

Rogues now get d8 hit die, the easiest way is to add 3 to your Grace, then add the roll for 4th level.

Other class abilities remain the same but she gets two rogue abilities (for 2nd and 4th level) which you can choose from the list from the page above.

Skills will need the most work, as some have been combined. However, it's easier to work with class and cross-class skills. Shakou will have 40 skill points (8, plus 2 Int, per level) which she can put in any skill, maximum 4 ranks. Class skills get a one-time +3 bonus.

(I think Rogue makes a lot of sense as one of the nai-nek-chai's favoured classes, which means that for each level she can either add another skill point or another hit point (Grace)).

Of her existing skills, Balance, Jump and Tumble are now all part of Acrobatics. Gather Information is now a part of Diplomacy. Listen and Spot become Perception, and Move Silently and Hide become Stealth.

Leopard stats are not significantly changed, except that they now get a +4 racial bonus to Stealth in undergrowth as opposed to any previous racial modifiers. Nai-nek-chai abilities remain the same. Although PF characters get a net +2 ability score bonus compared to 3.5, we didn't go with this as it was too much upheaval.


----------



## Theroc

Is there a quicklink to the RG in this thread somewhere?


----------



## Dr Simon

Yes, first post or see in the spoiler box in my sig.


----------



## Theroc

Alright, cool, I'll see what I can do about updating tomorrow, it's 4 AM, so I should get some sleep.


----------



## Theroc

Edits aren't done, just gonna put this in here to be double-checked before I edit the main RG.


Theroc said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]Name:[/B] Shakou
> [B]Class:[/B] Rogue 4
> [B]Race:[/B] Nai Nek Chai
> [B]Size:[/B] Medium
> [B]Gender:[/B] Female
> 
> [I]Human form[/I]
> 
> [B]Str:[/B] 10 +0 (02p.)     [B]Level:[/B] 4        [B]XP:[/B] ????
> [B]Dex:[/B] 16 +3 (10p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +3         [B]HP:[/B] 52 (26 Health, 26 Grace)
> [B]Con:[/B] 14 +2 (06p.)     [B]CMB:[/B] +3     [B]Dmg Red:[/B] XX/XXXX
> [B]Int:[/B] 12 +1 (06p.)     [B]Speed:[/B] 30'      [B]Spell Res:[/B] XX
> [B]Wis:[/B] 10 +0 (00p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +3        [B]Spell Save:[/B] +X
> [B]Cha:[/B] 12 +1 (04p.)     [B]ACP:[/B] -0         [B]Spell Fail:[/B] XX%
> 
> [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
> [B]Armor:[/B]              10    +0    +0    +3    +0    +0    +0    13
> [B]Touch:[/B] 13              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 10
> 
> [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
> [B]Fort:[/B]                      1    +2         =3
> [B]Ref:[/B]                       4    +3         =7
> [B]Will:[/B]                      1    +0         =1
> 
> [B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
> shortswords(x2)           +3     1d6+0      19-20x2
> MW Shortbow               +7     1d6+1      20-20x2
> 
> 
> [B]Languages:[/B] Low Imperial, High Imperial
> 
> [B]Abilities:[/B]
> Shapechanger Subtype
> Animal Blood: Is affected by effects that target animals
> Low Light Vision
> Animal form
> Sneak attack 2d6
> Trapfinding
> Evasion
> Trapsense +1
> 
> [B]Feats:[/B]
> Medium Animal form
> Animal Voice
> 
> 
> [B]Skill Points:[/B] 40       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 4
> [B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
> Acrobatics                 4    +3     +3  =10
> Bluff                      4    +1    +0    =7
> Disable Device             4    +1    +3    =6
> Perception                 4    +0    +0    =4
> Stealth                    4    +3    +3    =10
> Use Magic Device           1    +1    +0    =3
> Perform(Dance)             3    +1    +3    =7
> Climb                      4    +0    +3    =7
> Swim                       4    +0    +3    =7
> Diplomacy                  4    +1    +0    =4
> Escape Artist               4   +3    +3   =10
> Sense Motive              4   +0    +3   =7
> 
> 
> [I]Tiger form[/I]
> 
> [B]Str:[/B] 16 +3 (02p.)     [B]HP:[/B] 56 (30 Health, 26 Grace)
> [B]Dex:[/B] 24 +7 (10p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +3
> [B]Con:[/B] 18 +4 (06p.)     [B]CMB:[/B] +6
> [B]Int:[/B] 12 +1 (06p.)     [B]Speed:[/B] 30'(land) 20'(climb)
> [B]Wis:[/B] 10 +0 (00p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +7
> [B]Cha:[/B] 12 +1 (04p.)     [B]ACP:[/B] -0
> 
> [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
> [B]Armor:[/B]              10    +0    +0    +7    +0    +0    +0    17
> [B]Touch:[/B] 17              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 10
> 
> [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
> [B]Fort:[/B]                      1    +4       =5
> [B]Ref:[/B]                       4    +7       =11
> [B]Will:[/B]                      1    +0       =1
> 
> [B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
> Bite                      +6     1d6+3      20-20x2
> Claw(x2)                  +6     1d3+3      20-20x2
> 
> [B]Languages:[/B] Low Imperial, High Imperial
> 
> [B]Abilities:[/B]
> Shapechanger Subtype
> Animal Blood: Is affected by effects that target animals
> Can speak with Felines(or is it just Tigers/Leopards?)
> Low Light Vision
> Animal form
> Sneak attack 2d6
> Trapfinding
> Evasion
> Trapsense +1
> 
> [B]Feats:[/B]
> Medium Animal form
> Animal Voice
> 
> 
> [B]Skill Points:[/B] 40       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 4
> [B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
> Acrobatics                 4    +7     +3  =14
> Bluff                      4    +1    +3    =10
> Disable Device             4    +1    +3    =6
> Perception                 4    +0    +3    =7
> Stealth                    4    +7    +3    =14
> Use Magic Device           1    +1    +3    =3
> Perform(Dance)             3    +1    +3    =7
> Climb                      4    +3    +3    =10
> Swim                       4    +3    +3    =10
> Diplomacy                  4    +1    +3    =7
> Escape Artist               4   +7    +3   =14
> Sense Motive              4   +0    +3   =7
> 
> 
> [B]Equipment:               Cost  Weight[/B]
> Thieves Tools            30gp   01lb
> Shortswords(x2)          20gp   04lb
> MW Shortbow              30gp   02lb
> Arrows(x40)              02gp   06lb
> Backpack                 02gp   02lb
> Rations(x5)              25sp   05lb
> Waterskin(x2)            02gp   08lb
> Yen                       -     02lb
> 
> [B]Total Weight:[/B]30lb      [B]Money:[/B] 113gp 75sp XXcp
> 
> [B]Lgt   Medium   Heavy  Lift  Push[/B]
> [B]Max Weight:[/B]               33lb   34-66   67-100   200   500
> 
> [B]Age:[/B] 21
> [B]Height:[/B] 4'11"
> [B]Weight:[/B] 125lb
> [B]Eyes:[/B] Amber
> [B]Hair:[/B] Orange with black streaks
> [B]Skin:[/B] Pale
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Appearance:*
> Shakou definitely was not a woman to make a small impression. With amber  eyes and catlike pupils, her stare was quite unnerving to some, and  when coupled with her wild hair made her quite a striking figure along.  The tresses only fell to about her shoulder, but the pattern bore a  striking resemblance to a tiger's coat.
> 
> Her posture was self-assured, almost bored for the most part, though her  eyes often worked to take into account as much of her surroundings as  she could, constantly looking for an advantageous position in any  situation to ensure she comes out on top.
> 
> Her garb was somewhat unique, in that she wore a rather close fit,  flexible outfit that hugged somewhat to her curvature. She also carried a  spare outfit in her backpack, made of looser materials when she  anticipated needed to fight seriously.
> 
> *Facial image*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Courtesy of blogcatalog.com)
> 
> *Outfit Image:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Courtesy of http://jade.bioware.com/characters/images/)
> 
> *Background:*
> Shakou can hardly remember the specifics of her early childhood, having  lived as an orphan as long as she can remember.  She managed to make her  way in life through petty theft and cleverly scamming other children  into doing things to either distract from her theft, or to pit others  against themselves to avoid unwanted attention from either party.
> 
> She lived like this for several years, until she came across Gengoro, a  Cleric of a mischievious Fox-God, who delighted in trickery.  Sharing a  similar trait, the ability to become an animal, Shakou and Gengoro  struck up a trick to carry them through the rest of their lives.  It was  simple really.  Shakou turned into her tigress form and terrorized the  populace of a village, and Gengoro then 'frightened' her away from the  village, saving them from 'certain' doom.
> 
> It went well for a number of years until recently they were found out  but Cormondal authorities.  It had seemed Shakou's story was drawing to a  close, but the new Vashti stood in and offered to spare her and  Gengoro's life if they would assist some group of adventurers in a task.   Not thrilled at the prospect of working with strangers, but not really  seeing another option, Shakou accepted... and that's where her story  really begins...
> 
> IC rolls:
> Roll Lookup
> 
> HP calculation:8HD(+2CON)+3HD(+2CON)+6HD(+2CON)+[5]HD(+2CON)+14CONscore=35
> Health: 22
> Grace: 22
> +1 Health per level
> Health:26
> Grace: 22
> +1 Grace Per Rogue class level
> Grace: 26
> Total HP: 52




I forget how the HP goes, can someone fill me in and double-check what I have so far?  I'm still undecided on the Rogue Talents.  Bleeding Attack seems good, but I'm not sure which others would be appropriate.  The magical talents seem interesting, but I'm not sure how useful they'd prove in the long run.


----------



## Dr Simon

Looks good to me.

Hit point are done thus:

Health is Con, plus Con bonus each level, plus 1 point per level. With her Con 14, at 4th level, Shakou should have Health 14+8+4 = 26

Grace is solely from class hit dice, with maximum at 1st level, so Shakou should have 8+3d8.

As for rogue abilities, the most tiger-y ones I thought would be bleeding attack, fast stealth, ledge walker, rogue crawl and surprise attack, but its up to you. I haven't played enough to know which have the most utility.


----------



## Walking Dad

You can use rogue talents to get Mage Armor or shield. Not flavor- but powerful for a shapechanger.


----------



## Theroc

HP is done.  I gotta add Uncanny Dodge and the Rogue abilities yet, and then Shakou should be levelled up.


----------



## Dr Simon

Re: Neurotic's XP comment in the IC thread about feats or magic items for shapechangers. You may be surprised that a lot of thinking went into whether nai-nek-chai keep their gear or not when they change shape.

To me, one of the main differences in design ethos between 1st and 3rd edition is the level to which the game system itself presents problems to the player - 1st Edition can feel a lot more "against" the players through little rules here and there that disallow or restrict access to options, for example to "potion imiscibility" table - want to drink more than one potion? Careful, you might explode! 

On one hand, they were mostly annoying and not missed, but sometimes it is quite good to have an in-setting restriction to have to work around.

I could have had the nai-nek-chai like a druid wild shape, where gear changes with them, as it saves thinking about what to do with the gear. On the other hand, it is an inherent ability in the body of the nai-nek-chai, and logically shouldn't extend to gear.  It's a fine balancing act between finding ways of circumventing the problem (where Growling Ape has loose clothing fitted at the cuffs, and a hominid animal shape, whereas Annika has her poncho and minimal gear), and what could be a constant annoyance.

This game does have a play-testing element, so thoughts are always welcome. Certainly the idea of magical gear designed for nai-nek-chai is one I'd be open to. Shayuri mentioned a backpack that stayed with you; I've been pondering the existence of a legendary nai-nek-chai hero(ine) who made the first of these, or other equipment. Feats, I think, wouldn't work quite so well but maybe a feat that granted a supernatural ability to merge your gear, that would work in the logic of the setting.

I know it was just an off-the-cuff statement, but I'd be interested in how the players see the issue - annoying restriction or RPing tool?


----------



## Neurotic

Both annoying restriction and RPing tool. Restrictions, codes of honor, little failings are by definition RP tools and they limit your character in some ways.

I would say natural armor should stay, and there is in magic item compendium armor property which explicitly states that the armor merges with the druid change and remains active. It could be extended to natural shapechangers.

Those items would be rare of nai-nek-chai wizards are uncommon or rare since they are most likely to make those


----------



## Shayuri

At the moment it's mostly an RP issue. This is because Annika has no magic items.

Eventually, theoretically, that will change...and the shapechange issue will become a can of worms. D&D is balanced with the assumption that characters will have certain 'levels' of magic item at a particular level of advancement. By that standard Annika is already behind...but because she's a sorceror she's able to wield magic attacks and defenses that can temporarily even things up. However, eventually her saves and other combat scores will fall far enough behind that the issue can't be simply ignored anymore.

At that point, the question of what happens to her possessions when she changes will also come into sharp focus as an issue of game mechanics, rather than just roleplaying.

As an RP challenge, it's merely vaguely annoying, and serves as a minor incentive not to change.

As a game mechanics issue, it ranges from extremely irritating to borderline crippling (depending on what degree the character depends on magic items to achieve parity), and transforms a fun racial feature into a potent liability.


----------



## Dr Simon

Interesting; pretty much what I was worried might be the case. Looking at comparable cases, such as wild shape or the hengeyokai, it seems that the standard is that equipment changes with you. However, that doesn't quite feel right for the nai-nek-chai but on the other hand, why keep something that doesn't work in-game?  I don't want to include a feat to counteract it, as that then leads to one of those feats that only exists to remove a restriction which perhaps would be better removed in the first place. One thought is that, from 3rd character level onwards, a nai-nek-chai is able to transform gear, which seems like a possible compromise.


----------



## Shayuri

That's one way of handling it, and acceptable as a fallback, but I'm always more comfortable when fluff and mechanics are hand in hand. I also agree that it makes sense that the transformation is something that is of the creature's body.

My suggestion is that mundane articles do not change with the nai-nek-chai. However, gear that is enchanted can be 'attuned' to the character's spirit, enabling it to transform as well. There's no specific enchantment needed for this to take place...any invested power enables it.


----------



## Dr Simon

Hmm, that would certainly feel more in keeping with the setting. And I can envision some kind of enchanted material that could be used to make clothing and equipment. I dunno, "shiftweave" or something (very 4th Ed. name).


----------



## Shayuri

No need to look far. There are enchanted clothes in various books...there's even a 'shiftweave' in Eberron which is a very minor magical material..

What I like about this approach is that it doesn't require a "Oh, I'm so stupid, I could have done this all along!" moment. Saying that only magical gear transforms preserves continuity because we've never had much magical gear before.


----------



## Dr Simon

Shayuri said:


> ...there's even a 'shiftweave' in Eberron which is a very minor magical material..




Ha! Knew it! Actually it was the magical materials from Eberron (I recall a "glamourweave") that made me think of it - I like that kind of minor magic.


----------



## Dr Simon

Some thoughts on items for nai-nek-chai:

Shiftweave. A cloth originally designed by Tuvusand of Kronlordan who was fed up of ending up naked after shapechanging. Her descendants still continue to make it in their shop in the Kronlordan Emporium, where it is exported to far flung places. Shiftweave clothing merges with a nai-nek-chai when she changes shape. Cost - double a normal suit of that kind of clothing? Quite hard to obtain the further you go from Kronlordan, but it tends to last well.
(Needs knowledge of any transmutation magic to create).

Tuvusand's Satchel. Tuvusand also designed bags made of shiftweave that allow a nai-nek-chai to carry items in changed form. The bag merges with their form, but under these circumstances the items within it cannot be accessed. Some may have also been enchanted as bags of holding. Tuvusand's workshop still produce these. Cost??

Nai-nek-chai armour. This is mundane armour that has been modified to allow a nai-nek-chai to wear it in both forms. It tends to be made of much smaller individual segments and is obviously what it is. Only nai-nek-chai who do not change size may wear it. Each suit (which can be any type of armour) must be made individually. Cost as masterwork armour, and it counts as such for enchanting purposes, but has none of the other attributes of masterwork armour (these would cost the same again).


----------



## Shayuri

Good starts, but I feel Shiftweave is a bit underpriced at a mere double the cost of clothing, since clothing is very cheap. My suggestion would be to add a flat cost to the cost of the clothing...perhaps 500gp?

That's cheap enough that a character of 3rd level or so could afford it without it affecting his total wealth too much, but expensive enough that it's not routinely sold by any old traveling tailor in a horse-drawn cart. In game terms it means the shapeshifter has to deal with the drawback of clothes for a level or two, but as soon as that 500gp can be raised, they can be free of it.

A similar flat cost could apply to the satchel...allowing any 'container' item, like a backpack or belt pouch or sack, to be granted the properties of Shiftweave. A bag of holding should have it's cost increased by a percentage instead, so that more powerful bags are commensurately more expensive.

For armor, I suggest that, in addition to the nonmagic version you have here, that you allow nai-nek-chai to use armor with the "Wild" enchantment from the core rules. This armor is meant for druids, but can be easily extended to other shapeshifters without any balance issues. The benefit of Wild armor over 'nai nek chai armor' is that it 'vanishes' when in nonhuman form, but still provides its armor bonus...and that it provides protection even for animal forms that are a different size than the human form.


----------



## Walking Dad

I agree with the prize changes Shayuri suggested.

I think Nai-nek-chai armour is a bit to cheap, too. I could see it's effect as a +1 enchantment...


----------



## Dr Simon

Been reviewing some of the options in view to new recruitment. Originally I nixed favoured class bonuses to the existing PCs, based on the version of favoured class in the Beta test of PF. I think, since you now chose your dominant class for any race, I'll reinstate it. So all current characters can retrospectively apply bonus skill points or hit points (to Grace) for favoured class. Since you are all single-classed, it should be easy.


----------



## Dr Simon

Looking back at when everyone last levelled, I reckon it's time to move to 5th level, everyone. I was hoping to get a bit more game-time advance done before doing this, but I suppose finally putting an end to the paper lantern gang ought to count for some sort of reward!


----------



## Neurotic

Woo hoo! Level! Now to find my books lost in the move...


----------



## ahayford

I might be interested in joining this game....which characters are currently active?


----------



## Shayuri

Currently active:
Annika, an eagle nai nek chai (shapechanger) fire sorceress
Mystal Mar, Salsham'ai swordsage
Growling Ape, ape nai nek chai druid

Still with us/alive: Shakou, a tiger nai nek chai rogue.

You could easily either take Shakou over, or make a whole new character. The style of game is such that it'd be easy to introduce a new character. As long as you have business with the Vashti, boom, done. 

As for Shakou, her player left fairly quickly, so her character is still pretty open to interpretation. I don't think she was ever even converted to Pathfinder, so you'd still be able to basically remake her as you saw fit.

Hee hee...we do have kind of a "zoo" party though, don't we? All are animal/human shapechangers, except for the 'treefolk' who is also kind of monkeyish.

Addendum - Dr Simon, when we shift to Pathfinder, do you want us to redo our attributes according to a Pathfinder point buy? 

Also! Annika will be more than happy to attempt to ID the items.  She doesn't have the Identify spell, but she can try Spellcraft checks.

Finally...how does Grace/health work again? Right now I have 24 health and 12 grace, but I'm not sure how I arrived at those figures.


----------



## Maidhc O Casain

I'm also interested in this one! (Hey, ahayford!)


----------



## Neurotic

Welcome Mowgli! 

Grace/Health: IIRC, health = constitution +1/level; grace = normal hp - I think you have it backward, but maybe it's me who got it wrong. Also I'm missing something in the above formula because I have health/grace 18/20


----------



## Maidhc O Casain

Dr. Simon, would you be averse to my playing an Ura Oracle (Metal Mystery)? Character creation says Base Classes by discussion.


----------



## Dr Simon

Mowgli, no problem at all. I've just been looking at the Oracle class and I think it looks cool; also, no-one has played an ura yet so that will be interesting.

Shayuri, I'm not averse to more nai-nek-chai, as such, just that it would be good to see how some of the other races work in practise. I actually think the "zoo" is kinda cool (reminds me of Monkey/Journey to the West) in that the characters are all "outsiders" who are actually all working to help a community that probably fears them a bit.

Regarding PF builds, when we first converted the old characters across I think we just kept the original stats; also the ability scores for the Conclave races are balanced as 3.5 races, rather than the net +2 ability score gain as PF. I'm happy to allow some rebuilding, might need to consider which scores to increase for the Conclave races.

Grace/Health - Grace hp are those from character class HD and represent bumps, spent energy, etc. Health comes from Constitution and the +1 per level, and is actual damage.


----------



## Shayuri

Did we change the races? I think I missed a post or two then. I still have the normal ol' +2 Wis -2 Int thing.


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## Maidhc O Casain

In looking at the character creation post, I've come across a few things that may need clarification.

Spell Weaving might need a slight revamp, as in Pathfinder you get unlimited zero level spells. Using the weaving as written, that would result in unlimited first level spells (as well as unlimited spells of other levels if I'm reading it correctly).

You mentioned in that post that you had started out using the Grace system but found it too cumbersome. I haven't read through the rest of the thread, did you reverse that decision somewhere, or are the rules in the first post the most up to date?

Hit Point Rolls (Rolled one too many - count the first 4 rolls).


----------



## Walking Dad

Mowgli said:


> ...
> 
> You mentioned in that post that you had started out using the Grace system but found it too cumbersome. I haven't read through the rest of the thread, did you reverse that decision somewhere, or are the rules in the first post the most up to date?
> 
> ...




I remember that, too. And I updated my character (including making a new 'spirit domain' the last level up.


----------



## Dr Simon

Let's see:

Grace/Health - you're right, I changed it to my usual hit points houserule (all one set of hp, but you get your Con score worth of hp at first level as well). 

Spell Weaving - the easiest way would be to ignore 0 level slots (since they aren't treated the same as other spell levels in PF anyway). I don't think it's come up a lot anyway, but now people are getting more spell slots, it might.

Ability scores - last time you levelled up we converted to PF at the same time, but since it was only existing characters you kept ability scores the same. Now, with new characters coming in, in might be a good idea to allow existing characters to calculate ability scores as new to keep everything balanced. I suggest Salsham'ai - +2 Dex and Wis, -2 Str; Nai-nek-chai +2 Wis, -2 Int and +2 to either Str, Dex or Con depending on animal type; Tlaxu +2 to any chosen; Ura -4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha (they get short-changed but the Tiny size has its own benefits; Edraldi +2 Con and -2 Cha, with Stone +2 Str, Earth +2 Dex, Metal +2 Int and Gem +2 Wis.


----------



## Walking Dad

How many points for ability point buy?

Ignoring cantrips/orisons for spellweaving sounds like the way to go.

(baboon would get con or dex bonus?)


----------



## Maidhc O Casain

Should we use the wealth by level tables for starting cash?

Also, the recruiting thread says 4th level, but I saw that the party's recently leveled to 5th - should we be building 5th level as well?


----------



## Shayuri

Presumably so...but don't use the 5th level wealth table.

This is definitely a low-loot game.  We've got about 400gp in cash each right now, if I do my math right, and all the magic items we've found are consumable or very specific-use.

That said, the challenge has been fine, as we haven't been set against foes that require magic weapons or anything like that either. Balance is good, just low-magic/loot.


----------



## Dr Simon

25 point buy.

Baboon; Of all the ability scores, they start with the highest Dex, so I'd say go with that.

Mowgli, yes, go with 5th level. It was only reading back I realised that it was a year real-time when the characters last levelled.

Character wealth is currently a lot less than standard - I'd go with 3000gp worth.


----------



## Shayuri

That's still like twice what we have, I think...roughly.


----------



## ahayford

I was thinking of Rolling a Ti-kop Warrior or possibly barbarian.... What do you think? Backstory along the lines of the Vashti once settling a dispute between his tribe and a village of humans. Despite this service, no other Ti-kops of Glip's tribe were willing to brave the surface to answer the summons to her funeral. After some time, Glip was finally able to convince his elders there was value in paying their respect to one of the few humans that actually acted in their behalf. Glip now seeks out the heir of the Vashti, hoping to atone for his people's lack of gratitude.


----------



## Maidhc O Casain

Dr Simon said:


> Ura -4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha (they get short-changed but the Tiny size has its own benefits);




Yes it does, but so does being able to shape change (flying and other new movement speeds - though flying is the most beneficial, natural attacks, skill modifiers . . .)

And being Tiny size has some big drawbacks, as well. Tiny size can't threaten any squares without using a reach weapon, for example. And they have to incur attacks of opportunity to melee without using a reach weapon. Also reduced carrying capacity on top of the massive hit to STR, penalty to Combat Maneuvers, and the inability to perform Combat Maneuvers on foes the size most of ours will likely be (Medium or larger).

May I request either cutting the STR penalty to -2 or bumping the DEX to +4 to make the net a +2?

I'm playing one regardless, 'cause I think they're cool! (And I'm already working on a pic . . . WIP is below).



Dr Simon said:


> Character wealth is currently a lot less than standard - I'd go with 3000gp worth.





Shayuri said:


> That's still like twice what we have, I think...roughly.




Wow - 5th level and no one has even a +1 weapon? That's different, but I think I might like it . . .

Just let me know for sure what to start with and I'll make it work.



ahayford said:


> I was thinking of Rolling a Ti-kop Warrior or possibly barbarian.... What do you think? Backstory along the lines of the Vashti once settling a dispute between his tribe and a village of humans. Despite this service, no other Ti-kops of Glip's tribe were willing to brave the surface to answer the summons to her funeral. After some time, Glip was finally able to convince his elders there was value in paying their respect to one of the few humans that actually acted in their behalf. Glip now seeks out the heir of the Vashti, hoping to atone for his people's lack of gratitude.




That sounds great, ahayford!


----------



## Dr Simon

[MENTION=6680745]ahayford[/MENTION] - nice concept. I think the group currently lacks any kind of heavy melee, so either would be a good addition to the group.

[MENTION=29558]Mowgli[/MENTION] - cool picture! Well, how about  -2 Str instead of -4, since they're supposed to be a warrior race and the Tiny-size weapons give quite a hit to damage already. I'm in two minds about the threatened area. Sprytes in Arcana Evolved threaten as a Small/Medium creature, so I do wonder if the limited (RAW) threat area is one of the rules that's more of an annoyance than anything else. I don't think it'd be a game-breaker to give Ura characters reach into adjacent spaces. Thoughts?


----------



## ahayford

I didn't see the Ti-Kop's stat bonuses posted. Did you have suggestions for those?


----------



## Maidhc O Casain

Thanks, Dr. Simon! -2 Str suits me fine, and it fits the physical description of 'wiry muscle' as well as the Warrior race idea.

In regards to threatening adjacent spaces, I'll take that if you'll allow it, of course  - I'm not one to turn down an offered perk. Game balance isn't really my strong suit, so I'm not sure whether it's game breaking or not. Maybe others could chime in?


----------



## Dr Simon

ahayford said:


> I didn't see the Ti-Kop's stat bonuses posted. Did you have suggestions for those?




That's because I forgot the gloppies!  Currently at +2 Con, -2 Int. I'm not sure where to put the other +2 - any ideas based on their description?

Edit: added a scale image of Annika plus ura.


----------



## ahayford

I could go with a phyiscal attribute due to all the swimming, (+2 dex or Str) or +2 wis to reflect their tribal nature.


----------



## Dr Simon

I did think maybe Str, since they are described (like the ura!) as wiry, but a bonus to Str and Con would make them go-to race for tough fighter types. Wis was the other option, which would also allow for shamanic types alongside warrior types.


----------



## Maidhc O Casain

Any further revisions on starting monies, or should we run with 3000?


----------



## Dr Simon

Well, I totted up what the other characters have got and it probably doesn't amount to more than 1000 gp each, including starting money! I didn't realise that this campaign was _quite_ so stingy. There is treasure to be found, they just seem to have missed a lot of it!


----------



## Maidhc O Casain

1000 it is, then!


----------



## Walking Dad

Just some building around 

old:

Str: 12 (4 pt)
Dex: 14 (6 pt)
Con: 14 (6 pt)
Int: 10 (4 pt, -2 racial)
Wis: 17 (6 pt, +2 racial, +1 level)
Cha: 10 (2pt)


New:

Druid 5th

Str: 14 (5 pt)
 Dex: 16 (5 pt, +2 racial)
 Con: 14 (5 pt)
 Int: 10 (2 pt, -2 racial)
 Wis: 18 (7 pt, +2 racial, +1 level)
 Cha: 11 (1pt)

Feat:
5th: Spell Focus (conjuration)

---

Shall we also choose character traits?


----------



## ahayford

Code:
	

Name: Glip Wavecrest        Age: 22
 Class: Warrior (Favored)   Archetype: Shield Fighter
  Race: Gloppy              Height: 5'"                  
  Size: Medium              Weight: 150 lbs
Gender: Male                Hair: Black
 Align: Neutral Good        Eyes: Orange
 Deity: None                Skin: Blue/Green

Str: 18 +4 (13 p + lvl)     Level: 05             XP: xxx
Dex: 14 +2 (05 p)       BAB: +5             HP: 
Con: 16 +3 (05 p + 2)   CMB: +9            CMD: 21
Int: 10 +0 (02 p - 2) Speed: 20'/30'     Swim: 30'  
Wis: 12 +1 (00 p + 2)  Init: +2      Spell Res: None 
Cha: 10 +0 (00 p)       ACP: -2      Spell Save: N/A
                    Dmg Red: 0/anything    ASF: 00

    AC:     Total  Base  Armor  Shld   Dex  Size   Def   Nat  Dodge  Misc
               19    10    +6     +0    +2    +0    +0    +0    +1     +0
Defensively
               22    10    +8     +0    +2    +0    +0    +0    +2     +0

                  Touch AC: 13              Flatfooted AC: 18

Saving Throw   Base    Mod   Misc   Special  Total  
Fort:            04    +3     +0               7
Ref:             01    +2     +0               3
Will:            01    +1     +0               2

   
Weapon                        Attack       Damage     Critical     Special
Masterwork Shell Trident  5+1+4+1=10    1D8 -2 +4           x2      
   *Attack from BAB/MW/STR/WF             
   *DMG from Shell/STR

Languages: Common, Tik

Racial Traits:
   * Swim speed of 30 ft.  
   * +8 racial bonus to Swim checks and may move through water at their base speed without making a Swim check. 
     They must make a check to perform a special manoeuvre and may always Take 10, even when rushed or threatened. 
     A ti-kop may use the run action whilst swimming provided it swims in a straight line. 
   * Amphibious: Ti-Kop are able to breathe air and can survive out of water indefinitely.. 
   * noxious secretion once per day. DC 10 + the ti-kop’s character level + Con modifier or immediately regurgitate 
     the character. Touch attack which, if successful same saving throw as above or sickened 1 round 
   * Low Light Vision.  
   * +2 racial bonus to Intimidate checks. 

Class Abilities:
    * Weapon Proficiency Simple
    * Weapon Proficiency Martial
    * Armor Proficiency Light
    * Armor Proficiency Med
    * Armor Proficiency Heavy
    * Bonus Feat x5 + 3
    * Active Defense (Ex): At 3rd level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC when wielding a shield and 
      fighting defensively, using Combat Expertise, or using total defense. This bonus increases by +1 for every four 
      levels beyond 3rd. As a swift action, he may share this bonus with one adjacent ally, or half of the bonus 
      (minimum +0) with all adjacent allies, until the beginning of his next turn. This ability replaces armor training 
      1, 2, 3, and 4.
    * Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a 
      shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded 
      fighter may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for each attack. This action does not grant
      additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.

Traits: 


Feats:
   *Power Attack
   *Weapon Focus: Trident
   *Shield Focus
   *Spring Attack
   *Dodge
   *Mobility
   *Missile Shield

 
Skill Points: 20, max ranks 2 (2 * 5, +5 favored class)
             
Skills                           Rank    CS   Ability   ACP   Misc  Total
Climb (Str)                         0     3         4    
Craft (Bone/Shell Armor) (Int)      5     3         0
Craft (Bone/Shell Arms) (Int)       0     3         0
Handle Animal (Cha)                 0     3         0
Intimidate (Cha)                    0     3         0 
Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int)     0     3         0
Knowledge (engineering) (Int)       0     3         0
Profession (Wis)                    0     3         1
Ride (Dex)                          0     3         2
Survival (Wis)                      5     3         1
and Swim (Str)                      5     3         3


Equipment                               Cost     Weight
--Worn / Carried-- 
Masterwork Shell Trident x2              315          8 (fragile)
Masterwork Tortoise Shell Heavy Shield   153         10 -1AC +1 acp(shell) +1 acp MW (fragile) +1 AC 0 ACP
Masterwork Shell Breastplate             250         30 -1AC +1 acp(shell) +1 acp MW (fragile) +5 AC -2 ACP
Backpack Masterwork                       50          4
Monk's Outfit                              5          1




*fragile weapons break on natural 1
*fragile armor breaks on natural 20 confirmed crit

--In Backpack--
Artisan tools MW                          55          5





Money:

172 gp remaining

                         Total Weight on person:  53

            Light  Medium   Heavy    
Max Weight: 0-116  117–233  234–350







I used the primitive weapons rules from the Ultimate Combat book to stat out his shell armor/weapons.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/...orAndWeapons.html#primitive-armor-and-weapons


----------



## ahayford

I'm a little confused about hp vs grace...but I'll figure that out tomorrow


----------



## Dr Simon

ahayford said:


> I'm a little confused about hp vs grace...but I'll figure that out tomorrow




Don't worry about it - the difference has never significantly come up, so I'm going back to all hit points. The rule comes from Book of Experimental Might but it seems to be a pain for book-keeping in PbP.


----------



## Maidhc O Casain

It looks like the game may not have been _quite_ as stingy as it first appears. I started looking at th othe characters with an eye to building a connection into Chaarr's background, and noticed a couple of things.

First, there're some really good hooks in there! I still need to read through the threads a little, but Chaarr should be able to find a connection or two. This is about what I expected, given my previous experiences with Neurotic, WD and Shayuri .

Annika and Growling Ape are listed at level four and look to have have pretty meagre equipment for their level, but Mystal's still listed at level three and is carrying around about 7500 GP worth of equipment.

I'm not asking for more! Just pointing out that Dr. Si's recollection prob'ly wasn't that far off. Shayuri says the game is well balanced for the characters as they are, and I've got Chaarr pretty well set up with his 1000 GP. Plus, a low magic game will be nice I think - it should put more emphasis on the characters and less on the equipment, which will be cool!


----------



## Dr Simon

I think a lot of that equipment on Mystal's sheet is "wish list"; Neurotic originally built the character at a higher level, using level appropriate wealth. Rather than delete it I think he just marked most things with a dash.


----------



## Neurotic

[MENTION=29558]Mowgli[/MENTION], misunderstanding:
lines:
--Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000 gp, +2 Dexterity enhancement),
--Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000 gp, 1 lb., +1 resistance on saving throws),
--Handy Haversack(2,000 gp, 5 lbs)

are commented out (as in I would like to have those (like with maneuvers that I don't have, but plan on taking os they are listed but marked like that)

Mystal has no magical equipment save 1 Potion of Cure Light Wounds (50 gp, heals 1d8+1 hit points) and
2 sunrods (from Vashti)

EDIT: Ninjaed by DM!


----------



## Maidhc O Casain

Ahh! Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## ahayford

Also, Glip is far from optimized from a mechanics standpoint....I had the image of a shield fighter, sort of like a gladiator, but not quite so dirty and more militaristic. If anyone has better suggestions for feats, I'm open to suggestions. I also wanted him to be kind of primitive, hence the shell weapons. Since they are liable to break, I wanted to give him the skills to repair/craft new equipment when needed. I'll be working a bit more on his background, is there a time frame you'd like Mowgli and I to jump in?


----------



## Shayuri

Dr Simon said:


> Well, I totted up what the other characters have got and it probably doesn't amount to more than 1000 gp each, including starting money! I didn't realise that this campaign was _quite_ so stingy. There is treasure to be found, they just seem to have missed a lot of it!




How is that possible? We haven't been fleeing encounters or anything. What did we miss?


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## ahayford

Now you've done it  Never tell the PCs they missed some loots.


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## Maidhc O Casain

ahayford said:


> Also, Glip is far from optimized from a mechanics standpoint....I had the image of a shield fighter, sort of like a gladiator, but not quite so dirty and more militaristic. If anyone has better suggestions for feats, I'm open to suggestions. I also wanted him to be kind of primitive, hence the shell weapons. Since they are liable to break, I wanted to give him the skills to repair/craft new equipment when needed. I'll be working a bit more on his background, is there a time frame you'd like Mowgli and I to jump in?




I was taking somewhat the same approach - I'm picturing Chaarr as a traveling blacksmith and arms & armor craftsman, his Mystery giving him special insight into the forging of steel. Investing a lot of skill points in those three craft skills rather than things that might be more immediately useful, and a good deal of his meager cash in Artisan's tools.


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## Dr Simon

Some things:

Traits - when we originally converted I don't think traits were around to the degree that they are now. Everyone (older characters included) may choose two. I think most are applicable to Conclave.  A possible Conclave-y one would be "Classical Education" which would grant Speak High Imperial and a +1 bonus to Know (history), although probably not applicable to, well, any of the characters!

Treasure - Shayuri, offhand I'm not sure, but there are still some leads as yet unfollowed so I may be thinking of that.

Non-optimized characters - to a certain extent I try to tailor things a bit to the characters so there may be chances to use the unusual skills, and conversely I'm not averse to players coming up with unusual solutions to problems.

Starting new characters - if you are ready you can go ahead and post your character's arrival in the IC thread. At the moment the existing characetrs are at a lull, resting at the _narvinda_.

(Just to make some things explicit, The Narvinda Manrupashnar is a kind of secular temple complex. A narvinda is specifically a type of temple complex in the mountainous land of Ut'Bharma, home to Shaolin-like monks, but the term has been adopted to any similar kind of place of meditation and learning. Manrupashnarwas a sage/philosopher who lived about 500 years ago; she taught a way of living based on charity, humility, understanding, humour and other such things.

"Vashti" is an honourific specific to Cormondal, referring to the senior priestess of the narvinda. Cormondal has an ancient tradition of river-worship, and the modern Vashti combines elements of Manrupashnan philosophy with some of the old river cult. Although the narvinda is staffed mainly by women, it is by no means a nunnery. Men are allowed, and although some of the members of the community have taken vows of poverty, chastity and the like it is by no means compulsory.

These have been hinted over the years, but I don't think I've ever spelled it out fully.)


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## Maidhc O Casain

Awesome! I'll be out of town and without internet access (except for my phone) from this morning until sometime between Sunday night and Tuesday morning. I expect to get caught up on the threads/story to now over the weekend, and should be able to write myself in shortly after getting back.


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## Maidhc O Casain

I've got Chaarr's history and the link to his character sheet up in the RG.


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## Dr Simon

Both new characters look good and should give an interesting mix. It's nice to see some pictures of both races as well.

[MENTION=29558]Mowgli[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6680745]ahayford[/MENTION], you can dive straight in with introductions in the IC thread if you like. We can probably assume a few days pass uneventfully in Cormondal, allowing the existing PCs time to recover spells, hit points etc.

@Walkingdad, [MENTION=24380]Neurotic[/MENTION], don't forget to level your characters up to level 5.


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## Walking Dad

Changes for 5th:

change Track bonus feat to Ranger Track (ex)
+8 HP
Skill Points (4+int mod = 4)
-> Perception, Spellcraft, Survival, Swim
+1 1st level Spell Known (Faerie Fire)
+1 2nd Spell known (Animal Aspect)
level 5 casting (auto-knows: SNA 3, Magic Circle vs Spirits)
Feat: spell focus (conjuration)

If the changes are fine, I will apply them ASAP to my sheet.


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## Neurotic

Update tomorrow. Assassins stance probably, still not sure about powers, there are so many nice ones at this level. I'm thinking I'll go with defensive one, but not sure quite yet. Other then that, Mystal got +1 to init (Quick to Act class feature)


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## Dr Simon

Walking Dad said:


> Changes for 5th:
> 
> change Track bonus feat to Ranger Track (ex)
> +8 HP
> Skill Points (4+int mod = 4)
> -> Perception, Spellcraft, Survival, Swim
> +1 1st level Spell Known (Faerie Fire)
> +1 2nd Spell known (Animal Aspect)
> level 5 casting (auto-knows: SNA 3, Magic Circle vs Spirits)
> Feat: spell focus (conjuration)
> 
> If the changes are fine, I will apply them ASAP to my sheet.




Fine with those. I'll need to check, but don't you get some kind of monk-ish ability at 5th due to the different variants we added? Or did that become something else again?


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## Neurotic

Swordmage is monkish, but I get +1 to initiative. Maybe that's what you remember?


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## Dr Simon

No, WD took this variant of druid, but I think we swapped some of the powers from _that_ to something else.


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## Walking Dad

Not something monkish, but this is the level of the second favored enemy, a feature we changed to monk-like bonus feats.

Would you allow me to take the *Crane Style* feat without requirements (dodge feat in this case) as my monk bonus feat?


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## Dr Simon

Yeah, seems fine to me. 

That's right, we swapped the favoured enemy for monkish bonus feats. I know I've got it all noted down somewhere.

Funnily enough, there is a Crane Style in Conclave, but it's more like a Darth Maul kind of fighting style, lots of leaping about and staff-fighting. This method actually sounds more like Butterfly Style, which is an aikiddo-like style designed mainly for women. You may as well keep the name, though, as there are many different schools (_dosha_) of Crane Style, notably Northern and Southern.


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## Zerith

> Player places available. Ask for details *Smiley*




what places might these be? :3

Addon, Also, I've looked at the Nai-nek-chai, when they change their form, do they adopt the native move speed of their animal form? I know it gives you their axillary movement type(s), swim, fly, etc, but dos it also change the normal land speed to 50' for a wolf and the like?

Also, along those lines and if so; dos the move speed adjustment from other sources (barbarian's fast move and the Beast Aspects from the beast bloodline for example) enhance the animal form's land speed?

Finally, I noticed that animal forms that have claw attacks are listed as having a claw, is this a typo or do they really only have one claw attack over the normal two of their mundane counterparts?

Addon 2: Just noticed, while you said it’s a D&D 3.5E campaign, for character classes you’re using pathfinder and character building; this makes me think you were just making a small mistake in the there, given that from what I can see, everything is pathfinder from there, then I looked at a few stat blocks; and the PC’s are stated like they were in D&D 3.5E not pathfinder
  Pathfinder ability scores start at 10, not 8, and you can get extra points from dunking a stat below 10; meanwhile ppl are buying into 10 base stats would you mind clearing up my confusion on this matter?

Addon 3: Just figured I'd post a like to PF's point buy :3
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores


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## Dr Simon

Okay, so to address your points:

Character places - we're probably full, unless it's an interesting character concept.

Nai-nek-chai movement - that's how we've been playing it. Growling Ape and Shakou take on the ground movement rates of their animals forms. Any ability that increases speed would increase base move in all forms - other rates would be subject to a judges enquiry as I've got a feeling that e.g. barbarian fast movement doesn't apply to swim speeds.

The attacks is probably a typo. A nai-nek-chai whose animal form normally gets a claw/claw/bite style attack will have that attack. Note that where it referes to "claw" this will be the primary attack, so a standard sttack action will be with one claw attack; multiple attacks requiring a full round action.

System: This campaign started before PF even existed. The original characters were all created using 3.5 rules and, when we converted to PF, we didn't do a complete rebuild. Note that all the non-human races given on the site have 3.5 style statistics and not the net +2 ability score gain etc. but I think when the latest two characters joined we readjusted.


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## Zerith

Was thinking of making a Nai-nek-chai (cheetah) that would be a closer descendent then most other Nai-nek-chai: while he would be more of a grandson, or the like, of a animal spirit from what I can tell most other Nai-nek-chai are more along the lines of unknowingly distant descendents.

mechanically I was going to emphasize his animal shape; to comical degrees: to that end I was thinking of starting with beast spirit bloodline and then, if you would allow it(as the fallowing is D&D 3.5E content), warshaper fallowed by a druid level with the shape shifter variant*
and then the nature's warrior class.

*It seems like it would be easy to convert over to PF, it replaces  wild shape and animal compaion for shapshifting, that is available at class level 1, and gives flat bonuses (the first level form is a predator form, changes base land speed to 50', grants a bite attack, gives 4 Str and 4 natural armor but has the normal restictions of turning into a wolf or similar shape (not being able to talk/use normal weapons etc)
you can find the whole entire in the player's handbook 2.
as for the two prestige classes, their in the complete warrior, and I don't think they would need much changing, not that I'm any kind of authority on D&D or PF though ^_^;

And, assuming this character interests you, I Would also like to know if I could use a trait to also have a tinny animal form in addition to a median animal form (cat and cheetah respectively)
(And yes, I do know that med sized animal forms need a feat :3)

... and yesh, was going to make the character very very quick on his feet: WD can attest to my tendency to make very fast cheetah characters 
(I like Therianthropy and Cheetahs, and mobility, so yeah when I saw "cheetah" as one of the possibilities, I could not help myself.)

Alternatively I was thinking of making a Ura: would check on class saturation though :3


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## Dr Simon

The cheetah nai-nek-chai sounds similar to Shakou (a now-retired character) - maybe he's her long-lost brother or something? I would be interested in seeing how the beast spirit bloodline pans out.

As for Tiny size - the thing with a nai-nek-chai is that it has one animal form, but I have long been toying with the idea of some kind of master shifter prestige class (Oriental Adventures has a Shapeshifter, for ex.) which allows variants in size, shape etc., and/or some rare nai-nek-chai that can take multiple animal forms, but I haven't decided the best mechanic for that. It seems a bit too strong for a trait.

Neurotic, you asked in the IC thread if the older PCs have traits; I don't recall if there was a decision offhand, but I think that characters ought to have two traits, as per PF standard.


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## Zerith

Hmm, well, if you just wanted a prestige class that works around being a master shape shifter; we could look at the shape shifting variant of the druid for 3.5E and play around with it.
It starts out with a basic combat form, and then gets an aerial form, and then it gets another combative form that makes it one size category larger. This is the things it gets bye level 8.
Given that all this was replacing was wild shape and animal companion, should be simple enough to condense, and modify, the shape shifting progression to make it into a prestige class.
I may try my hand at writing something up for it latter :3

As for the Character, I’m been toying with the idea of him being reincarnated* numerous times since times of legends; thus allowing him to be a throwback, a sort of link between the modern Nai-nek-chai and their Nai-Hempashu ancestors. As such, to me any ways, it would be no stretch to believe he could readily assume alternate forms while his (his words) “…lesser kin…” cannot. At the point he joins into the RP (if he is allowed) he would still be growing into his power and he will likely be doing so throughout the RP provided there are class options that work along the necessary them.
[*He has not been a major player of any note: the biggest thing he would have been a part of that is still know off, if barely would be a few, obscure folk lore stories (he likely would have, at some sort, acted as an area’s guardian spirit but that would be long forgotten by now). Also, he would not have perfect recall over his past lives, their more of something he is aware of then something he gleams into for knowledge, besides, that much memory flooding into him all at once would make him go mad]

It should be easy to have him fill the role as the link between the Nai-Hempashu and the Nai-nek-chai though, since he has a bloodline, I can give him the strong bloodline feature/template(and I will ) that adds the spirit type to him and +2 to one stat.
As for having a tinny animal form as a trait, it’s your right to say no, it’s just an idea I had for flavor, oh well. :3
[Due to the nature of being reincarnated, and not simply living continually, he could be Shakou’s sibling concept wise, and yeah, he would likely avoid anyone bossing him around unless he had a cause to stay; not acualy that hard to do IC >
Also, do Nai-nek-chai have basically random animal forms? Or are their animal forms derived from their parents?]

I have another idea for a trait; could he have his clothing/items mend into his form instead of dropping off? They would, of course, become inactive when doing so (unless they would be active when a druid is in their wild shape for the like)


Also, I noticed WD has no traits and, with a PF ability point buy in, he has spent only 19 points, not 25, I think this will be the case of any player who migrated from D&D 3.5E, will have to go on a case by case basis though ;3


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## ahayford

Haven't had an update in a while, everything ok?


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## Walking Dad

Holiday fallout


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## Dr Simon

I'm back, working on updating my files and creating a combat map. Still waiting for home internet to be switched after a move as well.


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## ahayford

Moves are rough. I'll be doing the same around April


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## Dr Simon

Been updating notes on the PCs for this game, and a few things I've noticed:

Don't forget PF traits for those of you who have converted the older characters. 2 Traits, as per standard PF.

[MENTION=24380]Neurotic[/MENTION] - still no choice of new maneuvre. I'm also assuming that you will take your original 6th level feat choice (Adaptive Style) for 5th level (under PF feat progression), but let me know if you've changed your mind.

[MENTION=99953]Zerith[/MENTION] - sounds like an interesting concept. I suspect animal type is inherited, but it could be completely random. I wouldn't worry too much about stat difference between old and new - if in doubt use PF stats for animals. All I did was apply the ability score modifier that the animals have, and there are probably a few omissions in the PDF for special abilities and the like.

For a reincarnated character, perhaps a conversion of the Factotum class (Dungeonscape) might work, with the character recalling previous lives to gain the temporary skills. Or an Akashic from Arcana Evolved. There's not really a PF equivalent, although some kind of bard variant might work...

[MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] - I notice you've taken protection from evil as a spell. "Evil" as a descriptor doesn't exist in Conclave. I suggest maybe "Netherworld" as the nearest equivalent, or perhaps "Spirit" for a move general purpose version.


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## Shayuri

Yar...and honestly, we've been using it as Protection from Spirits too, so I'll just make that change.


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## Walking Dad

May I take Reactionary and Focused Mind as Ape's traits?


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## Dr Simon

Sure, no problem. Suggestions of an unhappy childhood for Growling Ape?


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## Walking Dad

A bit like a street urchin only in the jungle.


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## Zerith

Interesting classes, but they’re not really what I’m looking for. He is a paragon of the Nai-nek-chai that bridges the gap between them and their nai-hempashu forbearers, also, they’re what he hops to become.
Also, reincarnated druid fits his reincarnated motif, but not what he is.
the main thing I want to do with him is emphasize his animal form while making him closer and closer to a nai-hempashu as he progresses.

When I commented about him not having perfect recall of his past files, I was saying he would not be given any important knowledge of antiquity 'just because'.

Anyways, got to stay at the cabin for twice as long , but I'm back now ^_^


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## Zerith

I forgot to ask for an answer before, can I use a trait to have items mend into the animal form as per wild shape?


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## Shayuri

Hee hee. That question is one we've been grappling with for a long time now. 

Well, not traits...but we haven't had those until recently. Various ideas have been discussed. Dr Simon, have we even decided on anything yet? I know that right now, Annika is still basically just itemless and minimally dressed...but that can't go on forever.


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## Zerith

yeah, most characters don't want to be nude, well, most ppl for that matter.
Can I use two flaws? and just checking that I'm starting at level one.


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## Dr Simon

Some of the ideas mooted uptopic which seem feasable:

- Magic items will always change with you, due to the semi-spirit nature of the nai-nek-chai.

- Magically treated cloth that will change with you.

- Similarly constructed, a magical satchel that will merge with your animal form.

I quite like the idea of using traits, although it seems perhaps a bit more powerful than most traits (difficulty to judge, since they mostly give a small bonus rather than an effect). But then it seems to expensive to make it a feat. Or maybe a "double" trait requiring both slots. Hmmm.

Oh, and it would be 5th starting level.

I've got some ideas about the expanded shapechanger options, but I don't have full access to my books at the moment, more on Monday.


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## Zerith

could you define magically treated? do you mean just any magic item?
If it is just any magic item, then asking for a trait to allow none magical items the same effect is not asking much as far as game balance gos, as it would be easy to cheese this requirement by using once per year level zero spells on items, 49 CP per item :/ or even just giving use affect to be less cheesy for 12.5 gp and then just not using it unless it is absolutely necessary. my point is, the only time letting magical gear mend into animal form is a mathematical combat advantage is at low levels before a martial class has magical weapon(s) and armor, after that point, all you're doing is making racial trait, the trait that makes a Nai-nek-chai a Nai-nek-chai, used less often.
[Also, note that my character will have the spirit subtype ;3]

That said, if it needs a special magical affect, how much dos it cost? if we're talking just a few GP per item, a trait is still plenty, keeping in mind that one trait gives hundreds of extra GP at level one, and the usefulness of being able to mend non magical items can decay away rapidly.

and as for using two traits for it while saying a feat would simply be too much, I have to say the same to that, a trait is worth half a feat, thus two is basically a feat. (in fact, there is a feat that gives two more traits)

Also, are flaws allowed? :/


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## Dr Simon

Hmm, we'll have a go with a trait, then (this is supposed to include play-testing after all). 

Trait: Melded Shapeshifting (nai-nek-chai). With this trait a nai-nek-chai character can merge any worn or carried equipment into her animal form when she changes shape. Armour, shield and equipment bonuses are not applied with merged equipment, but any magical bonuses will still apply, where appropriate.

(Thus a suit of +2 chainmail adds +2 to AC, but not the chainmail bonus. A robe of protection will add to saving throws, but a magical weapon will have no effect on the animal forms natural attacks).

I'm not using flaws.


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## Walking Dad

Can I trade Reactionary for this new trait?

(you should also include that merged equipment (like weapons or wands) cannot be used/activated.)


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## Neurotic

Mystal is updated finally (not sure about traits and hp) - I'll pick two traits from Pathfinder site, but how do we calculate hp?


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## Zerith

alright :3
Ok, working on a prestige class to run by you for his 5th level, i'll try and get an alpha up soon :3
And as it stands he is taking 3 in beast and 1 in fire bloodlines; he will have move speed 60' and move speed 80' in human and animal form respectively, and he has the run and mobility feats, oh yes he will be mobile 

also, how do you want the hit dice to be handled for level 2-5? maximized, rolled, averaged?


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## Dr Simon

Calculating hit points:

1st level - maximum for Hit Die, plus Constitution bonus, plus Constitution score.

Subsequent levels - roll hit dice, plus Con bonus. You can use Invisible Castle or the ENWorld roller, whichever you prefer.

I'm not going to worry about the whole Grace/Health system as it's too fiddly to keep track of.


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## Zerith

[FONT=&quot]Ok, I have a draft of the prestige[/FONT][FONT=&quot] class I'm working on.
If you think  this is  something that can work in Conclave I'll hold off on finishing the character until it gets to the point that you approve of it. if not I'll just finish the character with present classes
[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot][sblock][/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]
Level BAB   Fort Ref  Will Special[/FONT]*
 1st      +0    +2    +2    +0     Claws of the Nai-Hempashu, Lesser Aspect, Animal Senses.
 2nd     +1    +3    +3   +0    Dire form.
3rd     +2     +3    +3   +1    Lesser Aspect, Refined form.
 4th     +3     +4    +4   +1    Heritage Aspect.
 5th     +3     +4   +4   +1    Lesser Aspect, Mundane form
6th     +4    +5     +5   +2   Heritage Aspect.
7th     +5    +5    +5   +2   Greater Aspect.
8th     +6/1 +6     +6    +2   Dire Aspect, Refined aspect.
9th      +6/1 +6     +6   +3     Greater Aspect.
10th    +7/2 +7    +7   +3     Nai-Hempashu shift.[FONT=&quot]

 [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Skills [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot](2+ Int bonus per level): Balance, Climb, Fly, Jump,[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Swim.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Hit Die[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]: d8

Claws of the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Nai-Hempashu
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Natural weapons gain a enchantment bonus of 1/4th the character’s total level; this bonus cannot exceed one half the character’s Master shifter level rounded towards one
[Note: at level 20, with a full 10 levels into this class, means the character gets a +5 enchantment bonus to natural attacks; by this point most martial characters have +5 weapons with other goodies to power them up to around or to +10.]
__

Lesser aspect
The Nai-Nek-Chai master shifter’s animal form  grows increasingly able.
[Lesser Aspect dos not allow for duplicate attacks, attacks gained from Lesser aspect are standard as per the animal form’s size]

Claws: Your animal form grows claws and gains two secondary claws attacks.

Bite: Your Animal form gains a primary bite attack

Horns: Your Animal form grows horns or antlers and gains a primary gore attack

Tail: your animal either grows a tail, or its tail becomes long and sturdy enough for it to make a secondary tail slap attack.

Speed: +10’ to primary movement type(s)*, +5’ to secondary’s type(s)*, if any.
May be taken multiple times. 
[*A primary movement type is the one(s) with the highest rating, secondary movement type are any with less; a Hawk’s flying speed is its primary and its land speed is a secondary, a Wolverine’s land speed is its primary while it’s climb and burrow speeds are secondary, meanwhile a rat has three primaries]

Natural armor: Your Animal form gains +2 Natural Armor.
May be taken multiple times.

Vestigial Wings: your animal form grows underdeveloped wings, and your take only 1d6 damage per 20 feet when falling and only up to 15d6 damage at maximum. These benefits are rendered void if the wings are in any way restricted. (an animal form that has a native fly speed cannot take the Vestigial wings aspect, but is considered to have it for the purpose of qualifying for other aspects)
-Wing buffet: your animal form’s wings become sturdy enough to batter foes with, your animal form gains 2 secondary wing attacks. Wing attacks cannot be used while flying by their power. [Requires the Vestigial Wings Leaser aspect]

Greater natural weapon: one of your natural weapons is considered one size category larger for the purpose of damage dice. (paired weapons, claw attacks for example, are 
This aspect may be taken multiple times, each time it affects another natural attack.

Strong: your animal form become stronger, adding an additional +2 Str.
May be taken multiple times.

Agile: your animal form becomes more agile, adding an additional +2 Dex.
May be taken multiple times.

Durability: your animal form becomes more durable, adding an additional +2 Constitution.
May be taken multiple times.
__

Animal Sense
Your animal form gains Scent  and Lowlight-Vision.
__

Dire form: when changing into your animal form, you may instead change into a dire animal form for +6 Str* +1 Natural armor, and become one size category larger
*Medium animal forms only receive +4 Str.
__

Refined form: when changing into your animal form you may instead change into a refined animal form  for +4 Dex. -1 natural armor  and become one size category smaller
__

Heritage Aspect
Your animal form gains  traits, abilities, or even changes it’s form.

Breath weapon(Su): your animal form gains a breath weapon, that deals 1d6 damage per hit dice, it may be used once per a day at 5-16 hit dice, twice per day at 17-19 hit tice and thrice  per day at 20 hit dice.
The damage type is chosen when you Aguirre this aspect (Acid, Cold, Electricity or Fire), as is the shape of the breath weapon; 60’ line or 30’ cone.
This aspect may be taken multiple times, allowing for either additional uses of the same breath weapon or another breath weapon.

Arcane Natural weapons(Su): Your natural weapons gain +1d6*  energy damage(Acid, Cold, Electricity or Fire) [*An animal form with only one natural attack gains +2d6 to its singular attack instead]

Magical bloodline: your bloodline is infused with arcane power, you are also considered have the magical beast type for the purpose of spells and effects. The hit dice from Master Shifter increases from d8 to d10 and the BAB is changed to fast progression, increasing it to 1 per class level from 3 per 4.
[If hit dice were previously rolled, add +1 to the individual rolled results]

Arcane aura(Su): Your Animal form gains a visible magical aura, granting 10 + Master Shifter class level spell resistance.  The aura is visually augmented by your bloodline or bloodlines; beast spirit gain an aura that mimics their animal form like a blurred vapory image, earth spirit causes the ground around your animal form’s feet to mound up beneath it to rise and support it while causing particulates and small stones to levitate lazily, fire spirit makes the aura fierce and blazing with energy, forest spirit causes the aura to expedite the growth of nearby plant life,  ice spirit causes the aura to sharpen, slow at the edges and shead coolair; mist spirit causes the aura to exclude a vapory mist around the animal form’s feet, river spirit causes the aura to flow and turnabout at its core, stone spirit causes the aura to become more solid and less transparent, sun spirit causes the aura to faintly glow and become warm to the touch.

Fly(Su): your animal form gains a fly speed equal to its primary move speed; an animal form with this aspect and a natural fly speed can remain aloft even when its wings are not in use; if it uses both its wings and this aspect at the same time, it improves its maneuverability by one step.
__

Mundane form: You may choose to hide the extraordinary quality’s gained by this class when in your animal form. (horns on a shark, for example) but loose access to the hidden qualities; but keep all those that are not readily apparent (the animal form remains quicker, stronger, etc; just as long as it has the required aspects)
If the animal form has the giant or young greater aspects, it may choose to return to its native base size

Used in conjunction with Dire form, and/or the giant greater aspect, the animal form simply appears larger than normal, if bizarrely so.
Used in conjunction with the Refined animal, and/or the young greater aspect, the animal form appears young.
__

Greater aspect
As with Lesser aspect, your animal form grows yet more able. You may choose from the old lesser aspects, or new Greater aspects listed below.

Flight Wings: Your animal form’s wings grow and strengthen to the point that they allow flight. Your animal form gains a flight speed equal to primary speed +20. If the animal form already has a fly speed, it gains +20 to its fly speed. [Requires the Vestigial Wings Leaser aspect]

Giant:  Your, base, animal form becomes one size category larger and gains +4 Str, -2 Dex, and +1 Natural armor.

Young: Your, base, animal form becomes one size category Smaller and gains -2 Str#, +4 Dex and -1 Natural armor*.
[* For every negative natural armor that taking young would drop the animal form’s unmodified flat footed AC below 10, instead give the animal form an additional -1 str (a total of -5 str if the animal form as a natural armor of +0. 
# If the reduced strength would leave the animal form with 0 or less strength, instead reduce the animal form’s Con in place of Str as needed.]

Borrow: Your animal form gains the ability to borrow as a secondary*4 movement type; growing tunneling claws as needed.
[*4 Animal forms with a natural, primary, swim speed instead gains borrow as a primary move speed; as such gaining the swim aspect cannot change borror from secondary to primary]

Climb: Your animal form gains climb as a primary movement type.

Swim: Your animal form gains swim as a primary movement type.

__

Dire Aspect: Your dire form gains additional qualities

Massive: Your dire form now increases the size of your animal form by two steps instead of one, and adds an additional +2 Str, and + 1 Natural armor

Powerful: Your Dire form’s natural attacks are considered one size category larger , gains +2 Str and is considered an additional size category larger whenever it is beneficial.

Swift: Your Dire form gains  +2 Dex and +10’ to primer movement and +5’ to secondary, if any.  

Durable: your Dire form gains +2 Con and +2 Natural armor

Large: your Dire form is now large(regardless of whether your base animal form’s size category is diminutive(Tiny with young aspect), large(medium with Giant aspect) or anywhere in between and +1 Natural armor.

Compressed: Your Dire form loses its size category and natural increases, but gains an additional +4 Dex and +2 Con. Note, as there is no longer any downside to using your refined form, it is assumed to be used unless stated otherwise.
[Note: Cannot be taken with the Normal sized Refined Aspect]

__

Refined Aspect: Your refined form gains additional qualities

Powerful: Your Refined form’s natural attacks are considered one size category larger , gains +2 Str and is considered an additional size category larger whenever it is beneficial.

Swift: Your Refined form gains  +2 Dex and +10’ to primer movement and +5’ to secondary, if any.  

Durable: your Refined form gains +2 Con and +2 Natural armor

Normal sized: your refined form loses its reductions to size category and natural armor but gains +4 Str and + 2 Con. Note, as there is no longer any downside to using your refined form, it is assumed to be used unless stated otherwise.
[Note: Cannot be taken with the Compressed Dire Aspect, as one makes the other redundant]

Slight: Your refined form now reduces your size be 2 categories and gains and -1 Natural armor.

Diminutive: Your Refined form is now diminutive(regardless of whether your base animal form’s size category is diminutive(Tiny with young aspect), large(medium with Giant aspect) or anywhere in between and -1 Natural armor.
__

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Nai-Hempashu shift: Your Nai-Hempashu heritage becomes more prominent.

Hybrid Form: you may change into a hybrid form gaining all your animal form traits, move speeds, extra, etc, as normal, but  normalize the hybrid form size towards the animal form’s size, remain bipedal and may use weapons and armor normally: you may make natural attacks as normal, but all natural attacks are considered secondary when used in conjunction with a weapon.
You may not combine hybrid form with Dire or Refined forms, but you may apply mundane form to hybrid form, making you look like a lycanthrope of your animal type.

Hybrid Shift: You lose your animal and human forms, your stats become as the above hybrid form, your new found form appears as a anthropic animal of your previous animal form’s type, but you gain the ability to use Dire and Refined forms in your hybrid form.

Human Shift: You may apply Dire and Refined form to your normal human form.
[While apparently simply worse than Hybrid form or shift, it allows you to keep your animal and human forms (and their different base sizes, if any) while maintaining the ability to change the size of your bipedal form. So while this option is less powerful, it can be more versatile]

Bestial Shift: You forsake your human form, and gain one of the fallowing: Two Lesser and a Greater aspect, a Dire and Refined aspect, or a heritage aspect[/FONT][/sblock]


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## Neurotic

I would limit few items:
Animal Sense - I would let the character select from extra senses of the animal - i.e. scent for rat, but sonar (blindsense) from the bat or 'water pressure sense' from a fish etc)

Rat, wolverine, hawk (and any other animal form with multiple modes of movement) get to select which one is primary and keep it (which would allow hawk which is extra fast on the ground or wolverine who can burrow as fast as it can run) 

OR alternately
Only those animals with equal speeds HAVE to choose ONE mode as primary

Also, limit damage increase of natural weapons to two size categories at most otherwise you could get monk 5 with some kind of increasing damage PrC and feat "improved natural attack" (already increases the damage by two levels and it soon becomes ridiculous if allowed more)

Not sure if there are such things as PrCs which increase natural attack in Pathfinder, but just to be sure...
"Damage increase from various aspect may never raise more then 2 levels above CURRENT body size of the character"

dire wolf is large, it would get one level extra damage over humanoid form (medium) with all enhancements due to class or feats


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## Zerith

Animal Sense: Nai-nek-chai are basically lycanthropes; and they get a scent and low light vision as per D&D and PF.
Note that unlike this bonus, they gain both to all forms, but in the end, this is more of a fluff thing though, and it can be modified without hurting the class itself.
Adding other sense types as Lesser aspects might be very cool though 


Movement: hmm, good idea, balance wise there is  no real downside to letting player chose the primary each time, sure you can get a rather insane speed in somthing that is normally very slow, but their be weaker for it in any case :3


Damage: medium animal forms can (with massive and giant) can reach into Gargantuan damage dice without greater natural weapon.
At Gargantuan it gains:
Claws: 1d8 (1d3 at med)
Wings: 2d6 (1d4 at med)
Bite/Horn/tail: 3d6 (1d6 at med)

With greater natural weapon and improved natural attack, and beastle shift for an extra dire aspect so you can have both powerful and massive the highest you can get is 8d6: Colossal ++ damage dice. With enlarged person on top of these it can get to 12d6, with a 'full' ten levels in monk, with enlarge person, this can get boosted to 6d8! Amazing! 
Monk damage scales up the unarmed damage, but allows you to replace natural weapon damage with it: their monk levels and improved natural weapon and greater natural weaon do not stack(at least to my understanding)

honestly though, a single level dip into monk is also very strong for this class: claws attacks gain two damage sizes upfront. and + Wis mod to AC when not donning armor, that is worthless in animal form anyways, and they have good wisdom :/

Back on to task though, to get into these top end damage dice the character is a huge/gargantuan animal*, if you're ever caught in any kind structure you're either hard pressed to get around or have to give up your dire form entirely:  anything smart enough to move past a 5' wide pathway with a ranged weapon will laugh as it pelts a massive animal with cheepy arrows for 1d1 a pop, for an hour XD

[*Huge if the character has the powerful dire aspect, or gargantuan with the massive one. This is assuming the character is not using a hybrid shift with a massive dire aspect, in which case natural weapon damage dice are on par with a great sword, if a lesser aspect and a feat  is sunk into each natural attack]

Honestly, if the damage dice size is limited, then it should be done through size, and likely the removal of the powerful dire aspect
Just my thoughts though :3


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## Zerith

btw, call me crazy but, has anyone thought of tossing filled water skins into it?
Acidic slimes(if not all slimes) are naturally waterproof, else normal, none-acidic, water would nutralize the the slime's acid while producing heat, and if the slime is acidic enough, this heat could be enough to cause the water in the slime to turn to steam and then simply blow it up.
More alkaline liquids would case a more violent reaction.

I should take a basic Chem class :3

Alternatively: make a fire*, or find one, and chuck the red hot charcoal on top of the slimes.
their burn the top of it, or burn inside of the thing, but if you chuck a torch, the thing might absorb it and smother the flames, greatly lessening the damage
[*By fire, I mean something as big or bigger then a camp fire, you want it to burn logs into fair sized coals, might be impracticable to make on the sot though, as it would either take several minuets to get coals or wast a fire spell (that could have dealt more damage with less effort)]
you would also want a shovel or sum such to use to pluck and chuck the coals, I would say tongs but they would lake the not move enough raw volume to deal with monster slimes
This is more of something city guards would do to deal with slimes, since conventional weapons are mostly usless.

Finally, an old tactic, Boiling Hot Water.
Slimes are mostly water, and would be great conductors of heat, I could see  it burning the outer 'shell' of a slime and basicly poping it, melting it, or just killing an outer layer of the slime and thus reducing it's size


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## Neurotic

Therefore we put fire to it and wait for it to evaporate.

I think you cannot count on oozes to be caustic, because acid is simplified type for game mechanic, it might just as well be the opposite. NaOH would burn human skin just as sulfuric acid would. And it would make a chemical burn indistinguishable from acid burn


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## Zerith

But I want to kill them with science~!

Onto a new note: I'd like to know more about the Nai-Hempashu.
Do they look just like their animal counterparts, or do they stand out?
Do they act, when acting as a power on the mortal plane, strictly as protectors or can they be wrathful as well? or do they act as something else?
Do they protect natural at large or just animals of their typ/only of their species? or do they act more like lords then wards?
Do they tend to act like their animal counterparts?

Etc.

 :3


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## Shayuri

Science?!

Yer in magic land now, varmint. *shotgun cock*

That said, some 'killing it with fire' is about to ensue. Annika post coming asap.


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## Zerith

magic is better when it bends the laws of nature instead of ignoring them 
Also, what do shotguns shoot? Science! 

Also, my character dos/will not have much to deal with things that can't be dealt with +1 natural weapons for a good while, level 6 if he picks up an early extra level in fire bloodline or level 8 if he gos fully into Master shifter (if it gets green lite)

Also, would produce flame augment natural weapons or replace them?

Also I love the word also because it's also a 4 letter word and I started 4 sentences with it! ^_^;


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## Shayuri

Magic means there are no laws of nature...only guidelines. 

And you won't find shotguns in a fantasy game...unless it's science fantasy. Or steampunk. Or...okay, sometimes. But probably not this one. 

As for putting a flame power on natural weapons, let's see.

You could get Eldritch Heritage: Draconic for the claws ability of a dragon sorceror. They upgrade with levels and eventually do energy damage based on dragon type.

I believe Pathfinder allows monk attacks to be upgraded as if they were masterwork weapons with no cost (ie - for the price of the enchantment alone). You could use that as the basis of an argument (aka - a desperate plea) to the GM for allowing natural weapons to be upgraded similarly.


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## Zerith

Magic: yeah, but it still feels more real if there is rhyme and reason while emulating our laws of physics :3

Eldritch Heritage: I wanted to use this feat so bad, so very very badly....
However, Cha is my character's "dump" stat (it's at 10) and it needs to be at 13 for the initial and about 17 to get into the top end stuff. two feats and 3 Points worth of stats into a stat with no other reason then for +1d6 damage, at level 14,  is not that great. 2 more nat armor is arguably as good without hurting his stats :/
worst come to worst, I'll get a magic item for enchanted natural weapons that can then also give my character flaming as well :3 (without anymore natural weapons added on by other means, he will have 3, that many enchanted weapons costs 6k for +1, amulet of mighty fists is 5k, if he gets some more natural weapons, the amulet quickly becomes even more cost affective  but yeah, NOT going to enchant his natural weapons one  by one :/ )

and I was asking about produce flames because he already has 1 level of fire spirit bloodline and an other give him produce flame  and if it augments his natural attacks I would nab it at level level 6, for the extra +1d6+5 damage per a hit; even if it only affected one natural weapon; I plane on taking all 3 levels of it and if it gives an early advantage I want to do so sooner.
(I plane on picking one up by every 4th level or so, as to make the stat  increases mean more and do so sooner. he has 3 stats at 16 already  without items or animal form )

Also, he is now using my favorite item, boots of striding and springing: Yeah, his jump score is simply crazy now given he was moving at 80' in animal form before he got them and he has the run feat :3
(now leaping 45' on a natural 2!]

Also, if M.S. gets green lite, his animal form's natural weapons get +1-5 enchantments as part of the class and can pick up +1d6 energy damage to natural weapons as well for one of the two heritage aspects. making it counter productive to enchant the natural weapons or get the amulet in the first place.
Then again, this is mainly to offset the fact that the M.S.'s animal focus lacks the physical armor of a fighter* or the stat based bonus to AC that a monk gets.
[*You can argue that one: Bardings; costs 50% more as formal armor but it's still cheaper then a armor and weapons, but the practicality of them is lessed do to them having to be donned each time animal form is assumed  and then removed each time(or preferably before) human form is assumed. Note that the Melded Shapeshifting trait, as worded, only lets the animal form 'hold' things, the human form cannot meld the barding while the animal form is not being used.

two: Wilding clasp: this allows the normal AC from the armor to affect the animal form without the need of bothering with barding.
By the time the cost of 4k is not much, if their even allowed, casters are already coming to the for front.
Note that, if you plane on staying in one form or the other for prolonged periods of time, your better off with enchanted normal armor and then a masterwork barding; the enchantment bonus of the melded armor still affects the animal form, so while the barding is still as easy to sundered as normal masterwork armor (as that is what it is) its alot cheaper than the clasp and gives the same AC benefit baring the ability to swift shift forms but also keeps the enchantments safe, as the armor their bound to cannot be sundered]

Just my thoughts though, and I'll stop now before I make a giant wall of text :3


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## Zerith

Fuuu- ... yeah, posted twice
Ignore this one please ^_^;

[If this post turned the page for you, there is an extra long post at the bottom of the last page]


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## Neurotic

[MENTION=99953]Zerith[/MENTION]: You didn't read the thread carefully enough. We DO NOT get thousands of gold to buy anything. There are no enchanters and magic is rare.


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## Zerith

I thought magic was common but high end magic was rare while the setting has its own currency :/
Also, your character has 7k GP worth of  enchanted items himself; your statement seems flawed
I’ll have to reread the first post to check on all this though

Dr.S., given that I’m not joining this with a Level 1 character, do I have 10.500GP to play around with (level 5 standard wealth as per pathfinder) or some other number?


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## Neurotic

[MENTION=99953]Zerith[/MENTION]
Let's see:
320 - Masterwork Rapier
   2 - Silver Shortbow
 25 - Studded Leather armor

backpack currently holds coins, poison flask, map case, bedroll, tools, survival kit, rations, and waterskins), chalk, flint, steel, and tindertwig

50 Potion of Cure Light Wounds (50 gp, heals 1d8+1 hit points), 
2 sunrods (from Vashti)
1 poultice of healing (from Vashti) used after fireball
1 poultice of healing (from Vashti) used on Three Flowers
1 Acid Flask (1 lbs., 10 gp, 1d6 acid damage on a direct hit and 1 acid splash damage within 5 feet, actually green globes filled with acid), - used on Head Hanger
Traveler's Outfit (1 gp, 1-1/4 lbs., worn outfit doesn't count towards his encumbrance)

Map Case (1 gp, 1/2 lb., holds map),
Bedroll (1 sp, 1-1/4 lbs.),
Wooden Holy Symbol of ?? (1 gp),
Chalk (1 cp),
Flint & Steel (1 gp),
Tindertwig (1 gp),
4 Trail Rations (2 gp, 1 lb.),
2 Waterskins (4 gp, 4 lbs.).
Caltrops (1gp, 1lb.)
1 oil skin (1sp, 1lb.)



Let's allow all of the backpack to be full 200gp although I think i overestimate


TOTAL: 547gp...

I think you have the same misconception as Mowgli had...

items marked -- are ToDo or kinda wishlist...because Mystal was initially made for 9th level assuming normal wealth...then I got into this which started (for me) at third level...


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## Zerith

Ah, well then drat, I wanted to have an extra 10' move speed 
And Double drat, I also wanted an extra 8 strength in regards to carrying capacity, it would have been so troll to have him pulling a draft horse around against its will while running around crazy fast XD
oh well, he will still have a max load of 780 :3
But he would have had 2400 T_T

Anyways, I'll  just assume I have 550GP to play around with for now then :3


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## Shayuri

Note that in the case of Eldritch Heritage, you wouldn't need more than one feat to get Claws. Just the first would be fine for that. 

Of course, if Cha is your dumpstat, that does make it less practical. 

That'd seem to leave your options as either enchanting them like a weapon, or hoping Dr Simon approves your PrC. 

Hm. You might also page through the Magic Item Compendium. I recall there being some magic items that empowered natural attacks in there. Well, one in particular. An amulet meant for druids that was part of a set. It explicitly works even when melded in wildshape and gives an ongoing +1d6 electric damage to all natural attacks. It's not impossible that such an item, or one like it, could be approved for use in this game.


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## Zerith

Yeah, as I said before, amulet of mighty fists, costs 5k for +1 instead of 2k but my character has, at least, 3 natural weapons no matter what; its 20% cheaper then enchanting the natural attacks one by one

also, take another look at E.Heritage, it has two requirements: 13 Cha, and skill focus, a feat :/


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## Dr Simon

Zerith said:


> Onto a new note: I'd like to know more about the Nai-Hempashu.
> Do they look just like their animal counterparts, or do they stand out?
> Do they act, when acting as a power on the mortal plane, strictly as protectors or can they be wrathful as well? or do they act as something else?
> Do they protect natural at large or just animals of their typ/only of their species? or do they act more like lords then wards?
> Do they tend to act like their animal counterparts?




Yes to all of that! In other words, they tend to look and behave in a range of different ways that covers all of those options. Generally, however, their animal form will be impressive in some way - from simply a bigger, sleeker and glossier version to strange colourations and glowing gold eyes etc.


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## Zerith

hokay, gona roll the hp here, and I take it this means the Nai-Hempashu do not normally grow things like horns and wings when their respective animal dos not have them, good to know for character concept 

Addon: was thinking of having a Pseudodragon to use as a 'front man' of sorts, and giving it a Ioun Torch :3
both only 275GP XD
Luckily, I think they work for cheese :3


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## Dr Simon

I wouldn't say that nai-hempashu _always_ lack unusual features - I can see the possibilities of winged wolves or horned sharks; the Spirit World is unpredictable like that.

Looking back through the thread, I see that we started the new characters, Glip and Chaar, off with 1000gp worth of gear each, so go with that.

I've found in another campaign that pseudodragons can be an annoying spoiler, so no to that unless you don't mind one without the sleep poison.

I was looking at some of the other queries as well. In Arcana Evolved there is a feat, Hands as Weapons, that allows you to then go on to enchant your natural weapons with magical properties:

*Hands as Weapons [Ceremonial]*
After a ritual in which participants sear your hands with scalding water, your body can hold special magical abilities.
*Benefit*: A character with this feat can add—or have someone else add—an enhancement bonus or a weapon special ability (such as flaming or disruption) to her unarmed attacks. She must add the bonus or abilities normally, such as by enlisting the aid of someone with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, who pays the gold and XP Costs, and so on. Like weapons, these bonuses and abilities can be suppressed, but not permanently dispelled. Obviously, some weapon special abilities, such as dancing, cannot apply to your unarmed attacks.
This feat can be used to modify unarmed attacks with natural weapons such as claws or a bite attack. Characters with more than one unarmed or natural attack need not take this feat multiple times.

I'm perfectly willing to allow this for flaming claws of fury and the like.


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## Zerith

*Hands as Weapons [Ceremonial]
*Hm, there could be a conflict here, claws of the Nai-hempashu from my master shifter class grants an enchantment bonus to natural attacks,  deciding on price could be problematic. also, my character is likely going to end up with about 6 natural attacks.. so yeah... given how frugle the game has been thus  far, would cost way to much to enchant them all :s
that said, 6 hits from 4 primary and 2 secondary natural weapons at level 9, and he hits hard and commonly even from the secondaries :/

pseudodragons: The posion was not one of the facters I was considering when I decied I wanted one :/
that said I'd be fin with replacing it with an other venom or just flat removing it.
[also, spoiler? do you mean they make things to easy or what?]

and what to do with an extra 500 gp... two more lil dragons with floating stone thingys around their heads! 
[I might do it, I might not, but their in budget now XD]

And finally, what do you think the odds are of a cat with horns and wings is?


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## Dr Simon

I'd be happy with altering the pseudodragon poison with one that does, say 1d2 Dex per round. It's the sleep venom that is a spoiler, by which, yes I mean it makes things too easy. One hit and a failed save takes a foe out of the fight in one go. Admittedly the DC is low, but coupled with the good Stealth score it's very easy to use them to sneak in and take everyone out. I don't mind clever tactics that avoid combat, but it's one of those things that just _too_ effective.

Cat with horns and wings? Stranger things exist on Conclave. Given the endless creative possibilities of the force of Chaos, it could happen.


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## Zerith

excellent :3

Also, I'm planing on taking up the Heavenly and Chaotic bloodline feats as the RP gos on (likely at level 9th and 11th level, I plan on picking up spring attack at level 7 :3)/
Will these feats give my character the Heavenly and Chaotic type listings?
[Humanoid, Animal, Spirit, Shapshifter, lets see if we can get him affected by a few more spells! XD]

Also, by already having a smite, when he grabes the second feat, would he have a pool of two smites a day he can use on either Concordant or Netherworld creatures as he so wishes?


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## Neurotic

> Craft Magic *Arms *and Armor feat




Heh, really what is needed to enchant someones arms and not weapons


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## Dr Simon

Zerith said:


> excellent :3
> 
> Also, I'm planing on taking up the Heavenly and Chaotic bloodline feats as the RP gos on (likely at level 9th and 11th level, I plan on picking up spring attack at level 7 :3)/
> Will these feats give my character the Heavenly and Chaotic type listings?
> [Humanoid, Animal, Spirit, Shapshifter, lets see if we can get him affected by a few more spells! XD]
> 
> Also, by already having a smite, when he grabes the second feat, would he have a pool of two smites a day he can use on either Concordant or Netherworld creatures as he so wishes?




I checked the PDF - as written those feats don't give you the descriptor as well - anyone any thoughts as to wether they should or not? As you say, it'd actually be more of a disadvantage (vulnerability to spells) to have them than any advantage.

As for the smites, from the way I've written them it looks like they stack, and would also stack with paladin smite and the like.


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## Zerith

hmmm, could do what was done with the spirit type from spirit bloodline: when gaining the feat, give an option to take the added type(and everything that gos with it) along with a bonus.

the spirit type gives a single +2 to a stat, I'm kinda ify at the idea of making these feats each give a +2, if so a character could get a +6 to one stat. from the three bonuses
But at the same time I'm cross as to say one of these types is not worth as much as spirit.
Spirit spells are common enough, sure, but their all lower level spells, that are purely defensive and if you're chaotic, concordant, etc you're vulnerable to smites and all those good/evil law/chaos spells that apply to your type :/

Soo, how about giving these as options when taking the feat
Gain the corresponding type and gain:

Chaotic: re-roll one d20 Dice(that was not your own) chose which dice is used. [immediate action] 1/d
Concordante: force a roll(that is not your own), before it is resolved, to take 10 [immediate action] 1/d
Heavenly: Sharing light 2/d (spell like)[Caster level = character level]
Netherworld: Armor of darkness 1/d(spell like)[Caster level = character level]


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## Dr Simon

Zerith, you're very good at making me stop and think! I'm not fond of over-complex feats but I think the trade-off sounds reasonable; it's similar to some ideas I had for paladins based along choas/concordance/heaven/netherworld lines so I'll say give it a go and we'll see how it works out.


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## Zerith

well, I'm not planing on taking one of those feats too soon, I want to pick up spring attack. and that's two feats away ^_^;
but yeah, heavenly and netherworld do suffer from being excessively powerful at  low levels while decaying as a character picks up more levels.
(two casts of a 3th level spell, or one 4th level spell,  at level one  is  not to be taken lightly, but at level 20? it's kinda meh) I'll see if  there's a better trade off for a character then spells but I want them  to feel like their just adding to the theme that's already there.

But I have to admit it may turn out into giving the character what turn  out to be like low level and shallow spell casing ability; taking a  level of a spirit bloodline, a feat, and a occasionally used  vulnerability to gain what amounts to gaining a domain's spells can be  powerful on none casters, a warrior would love these gains, a wizard could get a few spells normally out of reach and a cleric would basically pick up a extra domain, but without none spell bonuses.

Casting a few spells without hurting their BaB or even taking an  otherwise empty feat for spells that either allow them to hurt things  they can't normally harm or augment their combative abilities? I can't  say a full on barb would shy away from a one level hit and a feat to  take up beast, fire or stone and heavenly or netherworld to get a small  list of spells that grows with them, and even as it is, a +3-8  Deflection bonus for 10 minutes to 2 hours and 40 minuts is dang  powerful.
but at the same time, Daylight and Darkness pale in comparison next to dice rerolling and taking a 10 for any single dice roll.
it's hard to say which is better for a combative class, but any caster will always go for the dice when meta gaming.
(the smites also make the feats better from classes like a barb or fighter) over all these feats are already strong and these trade offs being dependent on them might make them, and thus bloodline levels, common place

Alot of issues with the trade offs, but you're still becoming vulnerable  to something you're otherwise impervious to and the gain needs to be something that lasts. (even more so given that as levels go up, there are more and more things that have abilities that target the vulnerability, at low levels smites are a lot more rare from what I can tell :/)

Well, I'm rambling now, and since we're already at the mid low levels the spells aren't too OP (not that I've some kind of expert)
Anyways, I'll post up the WiP latter :3


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## Dr Simon

I must admit I've never been entirely happy with the _dayligh_t and _darkness_ options with Heavenly and Netherworld bloodlines - they're more of a placeholder until someone comes up with something a bit more interesting. They're basically inspired by the abilities of the planetouched, although in this setting I reckon you could easily use aasimar for someone with Heavenly ancestry and Tiefling for Netherworld ancestry if you really wanted those powers. Now we've moved to Pathfinder there are all sorts of sorcerer bloodline options as well that would fit.

What might also be good would be more spellcaster-oriented bloodline feats as well (as you rightly point out, smite is more practical for melee combat types). If the system used spell templates like Arcana Evolved I'd give something like that; might still be possible to do so, I'll have a think.


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## Zerith

Honestly, their really good feats even without the dice re-rolling and spells,
They all give
 A smite that is comparable to a paladins, it's weaker then a PF one but we're talking about just one part of a feat next to a core class feature.
 DR 2 vs the feat's counter part type: not going to use it too much, can't rely on it, but it can end up typing the tides.
 +2 on interactive skills vs creatures of the feat's type: same as before, but the over all bonus is a bit large: this is 3 feats worth of skill improvements in limited circumstances, not weak, but given  the limited natura of it not strong either (also, it dos not grow as PF skill feats do)

One of those three would be rather light for a feat, but all three are Nice.

meanwhile being able to reroll any roll, and CHOOSE which roll to use? this single part is better then most, if not all, existing feats, even one or two that lets you reroll and then force you to stick with the new roll regardless of if it's better or worse. extremely powerful as the 4th part of a feat.
So the problem with these feats might be that they have too much going on at once while you're trying to make each part noticeable


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## Zerith

[FONT=&quot]I think we could shave off the roll changing and spells from the feats, make the smite rise the DC of spells suffered by the smited from the smiter by ¼ character level(rounded towards 1) and then give them these options that add their respective cypher:

Chaotic: reroll one d20 1/d
Concordante: Take 10 on any d20 roll before it’s resolved 1/d#
Heavenly: force a roll(that is not your own), before it is resolved, to take 10 [immediate action] 1/d*
Netherworld: re-roll one d20 (that is not your own) [immediate action] 1/d*
[* a target my choose to make a will save to resist, DC = 10 +½ level + Cha mod; Alternatively the one using the ability can preempt the save roll by rolling a 1d20 + ½ their level + their Cha mod vs a DC of 10 + target’s will save. This is an option to save a lil time :3]
[#Alternatively, maintain that the character has to take 10 before rolling, but bump it up to 2/d or 3/d]

Cheesy reasoning for each:
Chaotic: You create your own destiny.
Concordante: You’re an avatar of order, your destiny is certain.
Heavenly: You oversee the destiny of others, and by your will you can keep them from moving astray from it.
Netherworld: Your mere presence can cause mischief, be it boon or bust, you tip the scale of destiny.

Your notice I buffed the Concordant roll modifier while nerfing the Chaotic one: the why is simple, while it’s commonly assumed that ‘10’ is average on a d20, a d20’s true average is 10.5, so Concordant’s roll is a smidge weaker on the average right away, but it’s a certain thing, that said, the Chaotic reroll can change a natural 1 into a natural 20.
At this point the two look about even, but you will only ever use the reroll when you need to, while the take 10 was something you have to do before knowing what you would have rolled, potently wasting it utterly every time; this way they two are more comparable. [feats that let you take 10 let you take 10 every time for what they let you take 10 on, regardless of what kind of roll their for]

Also note, I know it’s not said above, but let us just say a single roll can only be changed once, no having 5 ppl with netherworld burning the ability all at once for a 1 in 2 chance of a crit on their raging barb who has already burnt his chaotic reroll on the same roll (or have some kind of cheesy reroll war…)

[/FONT][sblock=Character W.I.P.]Zhakou


Human


		Code:
	

Str: 16 +3 [5]    <+1 4th lvl, +1 Fire>
Dex: 16 +3 [5]    <+2 bloodline>
Con: 14 +2 [5]
Int: 12 +1 [5](-2)
Wis: 16 +3 [5](+2)
Cha: 10 
Move speed: 60’
Hit Points: 49

Saves[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]
Fort: 7  (5 base +2[Con])
Ref:  10 (7 base +3[Dex])
Will: 4  (1 base +3[Wil])

AC:          16 (10 +3 Dex, +1 Dodge)[/FONT] [FONT=Courier New]
Touch:       14 (10 +3 Dex, +1 Dodge)
Flat footed: 10 (10)

Cheetah[/FONT] [FONT=Courier New]
Str: 22 +6 [5](+6)<+1 4th lvl, +1 Fire>
Dex: 24 +7 [5](+8)<+2 bloodline>
Con: 18 +4 [5](+4)
Int: 12 +1 [5](-2)
Wis: 16 +3 [5](+2)
Cha: 10
Move speed:  80’
Hit Points:  55

Saves[/FONT] [FONT=Courier New]
Fort: 11 (5 base +6[Con])
Ref:  14 (7 base +7[Dex])
Will: 4  (1 base +3[Wil])

AC:          18 (10 +7 Dex, +1 Dodge)[/FONT] [FONT=Courier New]
Touch:       18 (10 +7 Dex, +1 Dodge)
Flat footed: 10 (10)


Attack:[/FONT]  [FONT=Courier New]
Human:-Unarmed: +7  1d3+3 19-20x2
Cheetah
-Bite:    +11 1d6+7    20x2
-Gore:    +11 1d6+7    20x2
-Claws:   +11 1d3+7    20x2
-Fullattack:
          +11 1d6+7    20x2
          +11 1d6+7    20x2
          +11 1d3+7    20x2
          +11 1d3+7    20x2


Feats[/FONT]  [FONT=Courier New]
Medium Animal form [1st Level]
Run                [2nd beast level]
Rarified Spirit    [3rd Level]
Dodge              [5th Level]

Traits[/FONT] [FONT=Courier New]
Melded Shapeshifting (nai-nek-chai)
Jaded

Special[/FONT] [FONT=Courier New]
Sprint (Animal form only)
Low Light Vision
Animal Form
Animal blood(can be targeted as an animal)
Shapechanger type
Spirit type


Languages: Spirit, Sylvan, Draconic, Low Imperial, and High Imperial[/FONT]  [FONT=Courier New]

Skills                Total   Rank     CS   Ability  ACP  Misc  [/FONT] [FONT=Courier New]Acrobatics              10/14  4       3       3/7   -0   +0
-Jump:                  22/34  ^       ^       ^      ^   +12/20
--Runing Jump           26/38  ^       ^       ^      ^   +16/24
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Appraise                01     0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Bluff                   00     0       0       0          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Climb                   7/10   1       3       3/6   -0   +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Craft (          )      01     0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Diplomacy               00     0       0       0          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Disable Device                 0       0       3/7   -0   +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Disguise                00     0       0       0          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Escape Artist           7/11   1       3       3/7   -0   +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Fly                     3/7    0       0       3/7   -0   +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Handle Animal                  0       0       0          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Heal                    03     0       0       3          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Intimidate              00     0       0       0          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Knowledge (Arcana)             0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Knowledge (Dngnrng)            0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Knowledge (Engnrng)            0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Knowledge (Geography)          0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Knowledge (History)            0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Knowledge (Local)              0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Knowledge (Nature)             0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Knowledge (Nobility)           0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Knowledge (Planes)             0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Knowledge (Religion)           0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Linguistics             04     3       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Perception              10     4       3       3          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Perform    (       )    00     0       3       0          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Profession (       )           0       0       0          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Ride                    7/11   1       3       3/7   -0   +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Sense Motive            03     0       0       3          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Sleight of Hand                0       3       3/7   -0   +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Spellcraft                     0       0       1          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Stealth                 10/14  4       3       3/7   -0   +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Survival                07     1       3       3          +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Swim                    7/10   1       3       3/6   -0   +0
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]Use Magic Device        00     0       0       0          +0


Wish list
Boots of Striding and Springing 5.500
-*Bracers of armor              1.000
-*Studed leather armor +1       1.175
-*Mithral chain shirt +1        2.250
--Amulet of natural armor       2.000
---Campfire bead                  720
---Muleback cords               1.000
[*one or the other]

Items
Pseudodragons, 3                   600GP 21LB
Ioun Torchs, 3                     225GP
Noble’s outfit                      75GP  10LB*
-Acesseries                         95GP  
-Signet ring                         5GP 

[*Not counted towards encumbrance]

Load    Light   Medium   Heavy
Human   0-76    77-153  154-230
Cheetah 0-260   261-520 401-780[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Bieograpy: A Nai-Nek-Chai who boasts of having innumerous names and that he has lived just as many times since the mythical times when the Nai-Hempashu walked among common man; Zhakou boasts even that he has a Nai-Hempashu as a literal grandfather.

He rarely gets into any kind of detail, about his numerous pasts, yet he wears a Signet ring that holds the worn-down depression of a large cat’s face, detailed inspection shows it clearly as a cheetah, but more mundane inspection can readily misinterpret as either a leopard or more simply a cat of no meaningful description; it’s an obscure and rare seal that has dotted parchments throughout history.
The seal has not been tied to any given family line, sometimes used by a noble (who uses it in addition to their family seal) but more commonly held and used by seemingly random wanderers; a thorough researcher may find two consistencies, that the only variables in the seal itself, from oldest to newest are those caused by age and were and not be the ring seal being duplicated or refaced, and more peculiarly, that the ones who have held it are Nai-Nek-Chai with burning golden eyes that can assume the form of a large and exotic cat.


When not taking up the mantle of one of the great cats, he tends to act the part of a youthful adult, or just a simple youth, who is kind and friendly, if initially defensive, while being indifferent to suffering; “The first hundred or thousand times I got worked up by anything, but now, however, I’m no longer bothered by mere mortal plight.”
Light and darkness, joy and misery, life and death, order and chaos, freedom and law, good and evil; all abstracts and all meaningless without their counterpart. If all is good all is normal, if all is evil, all is normal; Zhakou has understood this for a long time, and while he common works towards the ‘greater good’ he does not fret over it as he once had and many still do.
He has a tendency to act, and react, with pride in just about anything he dues and greatly enjoys games while commonly spicing them with bets

Zhakou, in his human form, appears to be more similar to a wild fey then a mundane human. His proportions are very lengthy, his shoulders narrow, large eyes moth small when closed, yet able to stretch into a grin that fills his face.
His irises are a particular sight; either appears like blazing and spiraled inferno that flickers into his pupils. During moments of calm they may appear as molten gold and during times of stress they may appear as a wall of flames veiled by a blackening screen of smoke.
His teeth are another, his canines are longer than normal and resemble fangs while his molars are also more fang like then normal, like those of a predatory animal.

Zhakou has seemingly avoided coming out of the wilds until only recently, and has been accompanied by three young Pseudodragons, Frillek, Drachs, and Frelan; who act as his voice, eyes, and ears.
While he is keen to take advantage of their services, he is intensely protective of the trio and takes on the role of an elder sibling who is not above lowering himself to silly and playful antics (commonly when displaying his annoyance at one of the trio and dispensing a ‘punishment’. While never harsh, and generally more of a game, the three tend to get the point).

When traveling the wilds the trio takes on the role of scouts, looking for prey animals to hunt and threats to avoid. With Zhakou around, and themselves to feed as well, smaller animals are not their favored prey, then have since taken to hunting larger games.[/sblock][FONT=&quot]

Yesh, Bio needs mo' work
[/FONT]


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## Shayuri

Thread ressurrection!

Just wanted to throw in here that the reason I used Acid Arrow instead of Scorching Ray, was because ongoing damage like that causes a caster to need concentration checks to cast spells during the duration.

It's a mechanic that doesn't come up too often, so I just want to bring it up here...in case the GM may have forgotten it.   We don't see his rolls, so I get a little paranoid sometimes. (^_^)


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## Dr Simon

I did remember it, probably should have put a mention in the OOC section, but the IC part where the caster "fights back the pain to cast.." is supposed to imply that he (it) makes his concentration check. 

Next round though he's got the ongoing damage _and_ Mystal to contend with.


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## Shayuri

Doh! I am sorry I ever doubted you. *bows*


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## Shayuri

Holy cow...crazy times.

I look back, and I see that I'm the one who was up last in this. That makes me feel pretty bad. This year's been kinda rough on my gaming schedule, especially with Enworld being down for a long time there...but still.

Anyone want to try to get this off the ground again, or will the blood never wash off these dirty, dirty hands of mine?


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## Maidhc O Casain

I've quite lost the 'feel' for Chaarr. I could try to get it back if everyone else wants to, but honestly I've got a TON going on right now gaming wise (including two of Dr. Simon's other games).


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## Neurotic

I don't mind continuing, but I thought everyone was too busy...it was slow even before Dr Simon stopped updating. And, Shayuri, don't worry about it, we all had such moments.

I like Mystal and with going PrC next level, I think it will be even more fun - although I loose more powerful maneuvers in the future, story wise it's ... awesome


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## Walking Dad

I'm good either way, but I'm currently into reducing my games not looking for more. RL is quite busy.


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## Dr Simon

Hm, not noticed that this post had been updated.

Of course, I've still got a ton of stuff waiting in the wings for RRK and I'd be up for continuing. I think when we left it with the fight with the tagamalang I was waiting for player actions, then it kind of drifted out of the update zone. However if at least some of you are up for it I'll get things moving again. Since you've pretty much got the tagamalang on the ropes anyway and it's a pain to start in the middle of a fight after such a long time I'll skip the end of the fight.


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## Neurotic

Dr Simon said:


> Hm, not noticed that this post had been updated.
> 
> Of course, I've still got a ton of stuff waiting in the wings for RRK and I'd be up for continuing. I think when we left it with the fight with the tagamalang I was waiting for player actions, then it kind of drifted out of the update zone. However if at least some of you are up for it I'll get things moving again. Since you've pretty much got the tagamalang on the ropes anyway and it's a pain to start in the middle of a fight after such a long time I'll skip the end of the fight.












*OOC:*


 [MENTION=21938]Dr Simon[/MENTION]
Not that I'm complaining, but the fight at the moment is in catching the beast we didn't exchange any attacks...you may be confusing it with Curse of the Crimson Throne?


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## Shayuri

I need to do some serious character work with Annika if we're going to go forward.

I really like the whole 'phoenix' thing, but I am bumping into her lack of background more and more...and into some mechanics problems with her race... I feel like I may need to take a step back and re-assess.

But I do like what we've done so far, and it would be nice to move forward if we can.


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## Neurotic

So, we have Shayuri and me going on and Walking Dad and Mowgli not. Can we recruit new ones? Pathfinder is probably easier for recruitment then any other system currently. Except of course that we're quite custom built.

I would be willing (unwillingly) to change if we really have to


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## Maidhc O Casain

I think one of my problems - and they're both definitely _mine_ and not an issues with the game or the party - has been coming in to the middle of the story. I always struggle with that, and so far the only game in which I've managed to overcome that struggle and really connect with the story and the party has been your Curse of the Crimson Throne game, Dr. Simon.

Another is that, like Shayuri, I'm having some problems with my character. But I'm not really sure what they are. I like his story, and he's got some cool things going on that I can visualize well, but for some reason I'm really not getting into him either RP- or mechanics-wise.

Finally, in the absence of a lot of play in this game, a couple of things have happened. I've lost what little connection I had with the story and I've filled up my time with other projects.

Sorry to disappoint, and I do hope you manage to grab a couple of replacements!


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## Walking Dad

For me it is just RL time issues. I like the story, my character and everything, but I fear that I can give the game currently not the attention it deserves.


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## Dr Simon

I'm happy if people want to do a rebuild on their characters, after all three of them were created originally under 3.5 rules and then updated to Pathfinder. A whole extra slew of PF rules have come out since which I'm happy to utilise.

Recruiting new players is always an option, but there is the situation that Mowgli mentions, that it's quite hard to come into the middle of the story (and it's one that's not only grown fairly organically around the characters but also one that is very interconnected). What's needed, perhaps, is an introductory side-quest for new characters. Hmm.


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## Shayuri

Maybe a reboot is in order?

Not from scratch of course, but like a kind of spiritual reboot, with old characters having a chance to re-establish themselves, and new characters put on equal footing with them.

We can do a little timeskip perhaps...it would be hard to bring new PCs into the current scenario and avoid the 'New PC Syndrome' I think.

Then we could either just retcon it and do it over again...because really we've barely even started it...or we can just press onward with other things.

The timeskip would be strictly a narrative structure, I would think. Maybe the characters go do their own things for awhile in the game's story, then return to the Vashti.

Gives us all a nice re-introduction and a chance to rethink and revise...and puts us on equal footing as the Vashti's new students, whom we are meeting for the first time both in and out of the game.


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## Neurotic

Just give me advance warning if I have to redo Mystal by PF rules - I would have to find class(es?) to fit/describe/do what he can do. Obviously, stealth and some alpha-striking damage would be in order so monk/rogue perhaps?

Also, if we do some side-quest as re-introduction, start a new thread for that


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## Neurotic

What do you guys make of this conversion for sword sage?

I would be happy with some kind of teleport item (cloak?) as that was something used extensively, but I will not make a big deal out of it 
I have to look up monk variant offered in ultimate magic


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## Dr Simon

To be honest I'm fine with the swordsage as it is (apart from converting skills etc.) - since the rest of the BO9S stuff is a sub-system of d20 it works fine as a subsystem to the Pathfinder variant of d20. That conversion seemed a little bland to me, not much different from a monk.

As to Shay's idea, that'd work. There's a side adventure that could be explored that's not so tied to the main plot that new characters would feel lost.


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## Maidhc O Casain

If we're doing the 'reboot,' especially starting with a new adventure wherein I wouldn't have that starting mid-stream syndrome, that might solve my issues. I've got a couple of ideas for characters that I could look at with an eye to putting them in the Creative Conclave world.


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## Maidhc O Casain

Well, in looking at the ideas I had I don't think any of them are really very workable after all. I'd probably better bow out of the reboot as well - I've got a new baby coming in about a month (unless he gets eager to arrive and moves out early), and likely too much on my plate already.

Still got _Curse of the Crimson Throne_ and _Master of Jade, Mistress of Iron_ so I've got no shortage of Dr. Simon games right now .


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## Dr Simon

Well I suspect a new baby will give you plenty to occupy your time (or at least sleep-exhaust you to the point of dysfunction!) so I understand. I've not forgotten Master of Jade/Mistress of Iron, by the way, just finding the time to sit down and draw a map.


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## Neurotic

Congrats on the newbie  Did you already bought plush dice?


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## Maidhc O Casain

Thanks! No plush dice yet! 

It's been ten years since our last one, so I've pretty well forgotten the level of exhaustion that comes with the little bundles of joy. I'll be reminded soon .


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## Shayuri

Hmmm...

Is there some kind of fire-based caster that can base off of Wisdom? I really like the whole 'phoenix mage' thing Annika has going, but the lack of Charisma bonus (from race...the Nai Nek Chai don't get Charisma...though I'm not sure I recall the Pathfinder stats offhand now...) is getting me down. 

Hm. Though the shapeshifting thing was also a bother.

Maybe I need to just rethink the idea from the start. Hee hee.


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## Dr Simon

Something I'm not averse to is using different casting stats for spellcasting classes, so I don't see a problem with having a Wisdom-based sorcerer (would suggest powers based more on the intervention of spirits, perhaps, than of internal power).

Alternatively, I don't think the original characters had the net +2 gain to ability scores that PF characters do. My gut feeling is that this would vary between nai-nek-chai, but I also don't see why an eagle-based character couldn't have a +2 Cha (noble beast and all that).

As for the shapeshifting rules, I've had a look at PF variants for hengeyokai, kitsune and "skinwalkers" (lycanthropic types). The most consistent ruling seems to be to treat it as if it were a spell of the polymorph subschool, which removes the issues with gear that are troubling. 

There are some feats associated with the hengeyokai race that might be useful too.


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## Shayuri

Hm, I didn't know there were Hengeyokai in Pathfinder...that could simplify things.

Well, if we can get the racial stuff worked out in better detail; and I would like to get a better feel for the race's flavor text too, then I can see two possibilities for Annika in Pathfinder.

First, she can remain a sorceror, the result of a normal nai-nek-chai (whatever brand of normalcy that is ) who has been for some reason infused with this firey aspect. One thing I'd want to work on with this is developing her life before the game a bit, as I was starting to suffer from a lack of history interfering with a lack of future ideas. 

Or second, I could repattern her as an Oracle of the Flame Mystery, which retains a lot of the 'boom' potential of sorcery, but adds some clerical spells as well. This might be an interesting way to portray that whole 'spirit magic' thing I was working at developing, as well as offering an interesting backstory/origin.

Oracle is probably less efficient in terms of mechanics, but it has some interesting story possibilities...

Anyway, lets focus on race first. Do you have the link to the original article on their 3.5 game stats?


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## Dr Simon

Original nai-nek-chai stats are here.


----------

