# Reading Group--Caesar's Legion



## SHARK (Jun 7, 2002)

Greetings!

Here we go! Chapter I—“Staring Defeat In The Face”

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“It was a great day to die. And before the sun had set, thirty-four thousand men would lose their lives in this valley.”
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The chapter opens with this statement. Wow! The courage of these men is simply inspiring! They know that many of them are going to die, and probably not by some unseen artillery fire either, but by hard, bloody, hand-to-hand combat.



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“There was not a breath of wind as the legionaries of the 10th stood in their ranks, looking across the river valley toward the Pompeian army. It was lined up five miles away on the slope below Munda, a Spanish hill town near modern Osuna in Andulasia, southeast of Cordoba. The sun was rising in a clear sky on the mild morning of March 17, 45 B.C. After sixteen years of battles in Spain, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Albania, Greece, and North Africa, and having invaded Britain twice, Julius Caesar’s 10th Legion had come full circle, back to it’s home territory, to fight the battle that would terminate either Rome’s bloodiest civil war or Caesar’s career, and possibly his life.”
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Damn! Sixteen years! Imagine how incredibly tough and experienced these men are! These aren’t young boys, but men who are 34 years of age, or older. They are clearly the epitome of professionalism. Imagine all of the tricks and knowledge that they have gained over the years from fighting in so many different battles, and against different opponents?


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“In the midst of the 10th Legion’s formation, on horseback and surrounded by his staff, helmeted, and clad in armor, fifty-four-year-old Julius Caesar wore his paludamentum, the eye-catching scarlet cloak of a Roman general.”
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Visualize the great general on his white horse, scarlet cloak fluttering in the breeze! What a sight! The importance of a distinctive appearance to an army’s general, but also it’s troops, cannot be underestimated.


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“Gnaus had assembled and equipped a large field army of between fifty thousand and eighty thousand men.”
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Though not as highly trained and experienced as Caesar’s troops, this no doubt is a very formidable army. They also have excellent field position. I think it is interesting, as I have argued passionately, that in the game, the idea of armies only being 5,000 men is ridiculous. Over twelve-hundred years before the Middle Ages we can see here that the Romans were regularly fielding huge, powerful armies. Keep in mind also, that though the civil war is raging here, these two separate armies are by no means the only armies serving the Roman Republic. There are still other armies stationed in Gaul, Italy, Greece, and Africa.


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“Standards held high, Caesar’s legions marched in step across the plain with a rhythmical tramp of sixty thousand feet and the rattle of equipment. Discipline was rigid. Not a word was spoken.”
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Imagine the sight, and the absolute absence of talking! The scene must have been sobering! I can imagine the sweat trickling down the men’s backs as they stand in line, their armor strapped on tightly, clutching their weapons. They are mentally preparing themselves for the blood and death to come. The banners waving, the gleam of armor and weaponry in the sun, all in perfectly neat rows—rank upon rank of legionaries.


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“Swiftly dismounting, Caesar grabbed a shield from a startled legionary of the 10th in a rear rank, then barged through his troops, up the slope, all the way to the shattered front rank, with his staff officers, hearts in mouths, jumping to the ground and hurrying after him. Dragging off his helmet with his right hand and casting it aside so that no one could mistake who he was, he stepped out in advance of the front line.”
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Caesar is such a god of war. He is clearly the greatest general in history, only really standing in the company of Alexander the Great, who was of similar temperment, style, and skill. Like Alexander the Great, Caesar was never defeated. Imagine facing an army commanded by a general who has never known defeat!


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“Caesar then drew his sword and strode up the slope, proceeding many yards ahead of his men toward the Pompeian line.”
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Caesar’s personal example of leadership and courage here is hallmark of his personality, and his great virtue! Imagine being a legionnaire standing in the ranks, perhaps fearful of being killed soon, after you have watched many of your comrades die under a barrage of javelins, and here, here, your general leads the assault personally! Caesar is ready to pour his own life out in battle with you! In history, we have other generals that have led from the front, like Belisarius, Richard the Lion-Heart, Henry the V, Patton, and Rommel, but they are few. It certainly shows that some men have not felt themselves above sharing the danger of blood and death with their men. They take the same risks, on occasion, like here, even more so. Caesar is in the absolute front of the action! What a great commander. No wonder his men loved him so much. Look what he does!

This book is just excellent! The opening chapter is clearly giving us a roadmap of where we are going. I’m still in awe of Caesar. I admit, I have always been a great admirer of Julius Caesar. This book adds so much to getting to really see his genius for command, and his concern and love for his soldiers. What an opening chapter! What do you my friends think? 

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Jun 7, 2002)

> “It was a great day to die. And before the sun had set, thirty-four thousand men would lose their lives in this valley.”
> 
> The chapter opens with this statement. Wow!




I actually enjoy the end of the first paragraph: "And if the men of this legion had to die, there was probably not a better place nor a finer day for it, on home soil, beneath a perfect blue sky."



> Damn! Sixteen years! Imagine how incredibly tough and experienced these men are!




At least 2nd or even 3rd level.  

I didn't realize that Roman legions were formed all at once, and that after sixteen years, Legio X was only one-third as large as when it started, but _all_ grizzled veterans.

In D&D terms, imagine a legion of 2,000 5th-level Fighters.



> “In the midst of the 10th Legion’s formation, on horseback and surrounded by his staff, helmeted, and clad in armor, fifty-four-year-old Julius Caesar wore his paludamentum, the eye-catching scarlet cloak of a Roman general.”
> 
> Visualize the great general on his white horse, scarlet cloak fluttering in the breeze! What a sight! The importance of a distinctive appearance to an army’s general, but also it’s troops, cannot be underestimated.




As I said before, I want my own _paludamentum_!

In Chapter III, Savaging the Swiss -- please indulge my skipping ahead -- we get a similar example of such distinctions: "His rank evidenced by the transverse crest of eagle feathers on his helmet, the metal greaves on his shins, and the fact that he wore his sword on his left hip rather than on the right like enlisted men."

In D&D, I guess the typical distinction is plate vs. banded vs. splint vs. chain vs. scale vs. studded leather.  That's how you tell tough humanoids from cannon fodder, right?  There's obviously great opportunity for "decorating" your Orc Champions and Hobgoblin Centurions.

Also, D&D encounters tend to be small enough that you don't have unarmed trumpeters, standard-bearers, etc.  Those are evocative touches though.



> “Gnaus had assembled and equipped a large field army of between fifty thousand and eighty thousand men.”
> 
> Though not as highly trained and experienced as Caesar’s troops, this no doubt is a very formidable army. They also have excellent field position. I think it is interesting, as I have argued passionately, that in the game, the idea of armies only being 5,000 men is ridiculous.




How did feudal armies get anything done?  Granted, I'd be horrified to face 5,000 armed men, but compared to 50,000 to 80,000?  Tiny!

Reading about Caesar's elite Legio X and Pompey's elite Legio I makes me want to play in a military campaign -- but we need good mass-combat rules (and/or a savvy DM) to make that work.



> “Swiftly dismounting, Caesar grabbed a shield from a startled legionary of the 10th in a rear rank, then barged through his troops, up the slope, all the way to the shattered front rank, with his staff officers, hearts in mouths, jumping to the ground and hurrying after him. Dragging off his helmet with his right hand and casting it aside so that no one could mistake who he was, he stepped out in advance of the front line.”
> 
> Caesar is such a god of war. He is clearly the greatest general in history, only really standing in the company of Alexander the Great, who was of similar temperment, style, and skill.




Doesn't this read like fiction?  Wild!  I'm left asking, when does the movie come out?


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## mmadsen (Jun 7, 2002)

According to Appian, two hundred javelins flew toward the lone, exposed figure of Caesar.  The watching men o f the 10th held their breath.  No one could live through a volley like that.  Not even the famously lucky Julius Caesar...

I'm beginning to think Julius Caesar was a 10th-level character...


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## Alaric_Prympax (Jun 7, 2002)

I remember the first chapter.  I knew then that this book was not only well research but well written too.  His discriptions are excellent making you feel that you're one of the soldiers watching Caesar lead the fight, that you're right there in the thick of things.

I should have bought the book then and there, but I didn't.   It's not in yet, but I'll catch up.

JC might be higher then just 10th Level.  Heck by 49 BC he probably would have been in Epic Levels.


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## Micar Sin (Jun 8, 2002)

Just picked this up yesterday... Haven't had time to read mroe than the first to chapters, but Wow!


oh.. and BUMP!


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## SHARK (Jun 8, 2002)

Greetings!

Welcome aboard, Micar Sin, welcome aboard! 

It seems quite apparent that in the first chapter alone, where it discusses the legion's standards being raised up, pointed, and so on, along with the precise commands delivered from commanders through voice and trumpeters brings home the point how important communications, standard bearers, and tightly disciplined formations can be for success on the battlefield.

Great stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2002)

knew that SHARK and his military mind would go apenuts over this book..sigh i am still waiting for SHARK's Guide to  Mass Combat....


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2002)

shark is this the book you got?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...3505167/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-2699014-5270335

Caesar's Legion: The Epic Saga of Julius Caesar's Elite Tenth Legion and the Armies of Rome
by Stephen Dando-Collins


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## SHARK (Jun 8, 2002)

Greetings!

Hey there Leopold! Yes, Caesar's Legion by Stephen Dando-Collins is the right book! It is absolutely fantastic! You should get it, and join us!

I wrote a review of Caesar's Legion for Amazon, too! My review should be posted there any day now!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Jun 8, 2002)

*Chapter II -- Impatient for Glory*

Suetonius says that during his first posting to Spain, while gazing at a statue of Alexander the Great in Cadiz, Caesar was to lament to his associates that at his age Alexander had already conquered the entire world.

I think most of us can empathize with that.  

By the way, I couldn't help but think of the morning team on KROQ 106.7 FM (in LA), Kevin and Bean.  Anytime they mention something amazing that someone young has done, one of them says, "At that age I was still throwing rocks at my neighbor, Robbie Joyner."

Caesar took a personal interest in the appointment of the legion's six tribunes, all young colonels in their late teens and twenties..."

Young _colonels_ in their late _teens_?  And here I thought a lieutenant in his early twenties was in over his head...

It's a good thing we still have centurions to keep the men in check.  We just call 'em "sergeants" now.

Tacitus tells of a centurion serving in the Balkans in the first century who was nicknamed 'Bring Another' by his troops, because when he broke a vine stick across the back of a legionary he was disciplining, as he regularly did, he would bellow, "Bring another!"

SHARK already mentioned this great anecdote, but I had to repeat.  I'm getting a feel for SHARK's Hobgoblin Dog Soldiers.

Roman legionaries averaged just five feet four in height...

I still find this fascinating.  It's amusing to think that I'd be a giant even amongst the towering Germans.  "He's _six_ feet tall!"

After tough training and daily arms and formation drill, they were capable of marching twenty-five miles a day with a pack weighing up to a hundred pounds on their back.

A 5'4" soldier weighs, what, 140 lbs?  150 lbs if he's quite muscular?  And he's marching 25 miles a day with a 100-lb pack?  More than two thirds his own weight?  Can that be right?

Right from the start, skils the young men of the 10th brought with them to the legion were exploited.  Blacksmiths became armorers, carpenters built artillery and siege equipment, cobblers made military footwear, literate men became clerks.

Exp1/Ftr1?

While engaged in construction work, a legionary could stack his shield and javelin and remove his backpack and helmet, but otherwise he had to wear full armored jacket, sword, and dagger, on pain of death if caught improperly attired, to enable him to go into action immediately in the event of an enemy attack.

These guys would fit right into a D&D party.  Notice though that they need a threat of death -- certain death from their own side -- to keep their armor on while working.

I'm amazed that they could build a new fortified camp every night, but I guess soldiers in the field don't have much else they could be doing.

Under the Roman army's rules of plunder, if a town was stormed, the spoils were divided among the legionaries.  But if a town surrendered, the fate of the spoils was decided by the generals...

Interesting incentive structure!

...money from the sale of captured fighting men went to the legionaries, while that from the sale of nonmilitary prisoners did not.

I love these details.

With wealthier Romans each owning up to twenty thousand slaves at their numerous estates...

Excuse me?  Twenty _thousand_?  I thought the _armies_ were big!

As for the slave traders, theirs could be a perilous existance, camping in unprotected tents outside the fortified camps of the legions.  There are several first-century examples of unarmed camp followers being massacred in large number during enemy attacks on legion bases.

I have to work this into an adventure.

The Triumph was one of the hightest accolades a Roman general could receive, entitling him to a parade through the streets of Rome in a golden chariot followed by troops from his army and his spoils of war, receiving the cheers of the crowds lining the route of the procession.

That is so much better than a few thousand gold pieces.


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## Yuan-Ti (Jun 8, 2002)

SHARK said:
			
		

> *
> I wrote a review of Caesar's Legion for Amazon, too! My review should be posted there any day now!
> *




Shark, you should consider writing a review for RPG.net in which you relate how this book would be useful as campaign source material. I won't _order_ you to do it, but someone else might.


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## mmadsen (Jun 8, 2002)

*Chapter III -- Savaging the Swiss*

"How many days' rations do the men have left?"
"Two days' rations, Caesar."
"We march for Bibracte."

It's all about logistics, isn't it?  Getting your men to the fight in condition to fight.

He had quickly marched the 10th Legion to Geneva, destroyed the Rhone bridge, then had his legionaries build a sixteen-foot earth wall for eighteen miles along the bank of the Rhone from Lake Geneva to the Jura Mountains.

Amazing.  Anyone else getting ideas for dwarf legions?

His rank evidenced by the transverse crest of eagle feathers on his helmet, the metal greaves on his shins, and the fact that he wore his sword on his left hip rather than on the right like enlisted men.

I still love that.

Coming up the slope, with the hill above them thick with Roman legionaries and the air full of missiles, the Helvetian warriors instinctively raised their shields to protect themselves from the Roman javelins.  This they quickly discovered, wasn't as easy as just blocking them.  Forty years before, Consul Marius had introduced a revolutionary change to the design of Roman javelins; since his time, they had been manufactured with soft metal behind the point.  Once the javelin struck anything, the weight of the shaft casused it to bend like a hockey stick where shaft and head joined.  With its aerodynamic qualities destroyed, it couldn't be effectively thrown back.  And if it lodged in a shield, it became extremely difficult to remove, as the Helvetii now found.  What was worse, in their case, with their shields overlapping, javelins were going through several at a time, pinning them together.

I already know all about the Roman _pilum_, but I still love reading about it.

Finally the wagon laager was overrun by the legions.  All the Helvetian worldly goods and all the tribe's supplies were captured, along with numerous noncombatants, including the children of nobility.

It's strange to think of families following armies around.

Apart from six thousand fighting men who slipped away at night and were rounded up by friendly tribes and put to death...

Note to self: Don't go AWOL in ancient Switzerland.

Ariovistus, king of Suebi Germans, had sent Caesar a message accepting an offer of a peace conference.  But he had attached an unusual condition to the meeting -- both leaders were only to be accompanied by a bodyguard of mounted troops.  this started Caesar thinking that perhaps the German had bribed members of the Roman general's Gallic cavalry to assassinate him on the way to or at the conference.  To be on the safe side, Caesar ordered his cavalry to temporarily give up their horses, and mounted infantrymen of the 10th Legion in their place.

I'm not sure I'd find that believable in a movie or novel.  Truth is stranger than fiction.  Very cool though.

Then, from prisoners, Caesar learned that the Germans believed they would not win if they fought a major encounter before the new moon.

That's the kind of divination I'd like to see in D&D -- not finding secret doors.

Undaunted, men of the 10th brushed aside the spears and literally threw themselves on the front line of German shields.  Some wrenched shields out of the hands of their owners.  Others reached over the top of the shields and stabbed the points of their swords into German faces.

First, that's a cool battle scene.  Second, from this and other snippets, it's clear that shields are very, very important -- more than a -10% to get hit, I'd think.


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## Maldur (Jun 8, 2002)

Damn, My copy still isn't in yet.

Hope it gets here before you guys finish ( and you just might, if your this enthousiastic)


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## mmadsen (Jun 8, 2002)

> Hope it gets here before you guys finish (and you just might, if your this enthousiastic)




Don't worry too much, Maldur.  Chapter III only takes us through page 23 -- and I'm only super gung-ho right now because I may not have ready net access in the next few days; I'll be traveling.


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## SHARK (Jun 10, 2002)

Greetings!

I think it is interesting that reading through the passages, the Legionaires are all equipped to a much higher standard than you usually see in the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages, remember, there is often just a small nucleus of armoured knights, supported by a mob of peasants armed with a spear, and wearing no armor, or leather at best.

The legionaires are quite different, though. The list of armor and shield, weapons, and equipment shows a very different capability and attitude towards fielding military forces. The legions are all lined up, armor gleaming in the sun, ready to launch a storm of javelins towards the enemy, and then close in for hand-to-hand combat! Damn, Caesar's Legion rocks!

Imagine the sense of pride in the different units, and their desire to compete with each other for glory upon the battlefield! Of course, the Romans also believed in decorations for valor! Being awarded a prestigious medal or granted some unusual priviledge is quite a different reward indeed as opposed to just another sack of gold!

Semper Fidelis.

SHARK


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## SHARK (Jun 11, 2002)

Greetings!

Chapter II--Impatient For Glory

Page 7, Quote:
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"Recruiting officers were soon bustling around the province, drafting thousands of young men from throughout Baetica, which roughly corresponded with the modern-day region of Andulasia. Within days, the recruits assembled at Cordoba. Following the pattern set by Pompey, Caesar gave the new legion the number ten. And Legio X was born.

For its emblem, the 10th took the bull, a symbol popular in Spain then as it is now. The bull emblem would appear on the shield of every man of the legion, and on the standards of the legion."
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End Quote.

I find it interesting that it only took the recruiters a few days to recruit some 6000 men. That's raising armies for you! Imagine what the young recruits were thinking? Caesar seemed to have a particular skill in raising legions quickly. 

I can see how these ideas would be very useful in the game. Powerful lords and influential leaders could sweep through the land, raising armies very quickly. The Leadership feat takes on a new sense of importance. Has anyone done an expansion of the leadership table? Forget raising a hundred or so soldiers! THOUSANDS is the way to get the job done! 

The importance of the bull emblem becomes quite apparent with some thought. The emblem would serve as a symbol of inspiration and courage. Can you visualise the bull symbol flapping in the breeze from the banners? Or carefully inscribed on their shields? Damn, that's got to be very cool, you know? 

I can see developing special magical properties for unit banners and standards, that provide general magical powers, but also some unique properties from the specific emblem. For example:

Bull: Provides Bull's Strength 3/day to all allied soldiers within 1000 yards of the enchanted banner. 

The Bull standard, crafted from gold, and inlaid with rubies, allows all allied soldiers within 1000 yards to make use of the feat "Bull Rush" up to 3/day.

Very cool!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Skarp Hedin (Jun 11, 2002)

> Imagine what the young recruits were thinking?




Probably something like this (if I remember my Roman history properly):

"Whoa! Citizenship -and- land ownership? Sign me up!"

One reason (among many), I've always felt, that the Romans were able to mount large armies is that their benefits of service were very good, especially when compared to the plight of a non-soldier plebian.  Extended rights (citizenship) and the promise (not always fulfilled) of future land ownership.

Pre-Augustan period's never been a big subject of study for me, though, so I may be misremembering.


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## LostSoul (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Chapter II -- Impatient for Glory*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> [B"After tough training and daily arms and formation drill, they were capable of marching twenty-five miles a day with a pack weighing up to a hundred pounds on their back."[/B]




That's an 18 Strength, if you follow the Carrying Capacity and Overland Movement tables.


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## Reprisal (Jun 12, 2002)

Hey all,  

Just bought the book today, and from what I've read so far...  

I'll obviously have some catching up to do, but I'll keep my eye on this thread.


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## Maldur (Jun 12, 2002)

I got mine.

Very nicely written, finaly a history book which is actually readable.

Im amazed (again, I already knew this) that legions build a palisade and moat camp every day!  Its like rebuilding a village every day, for months on end. Thats  an amazing degree of disipline (and paranoia). 
How did they do this when traveling through the empire itself? 

But was Ceasar a general or a politician? He knows his job as a army commander, but isn't his motivation power in politics?

thx Shark for suggesting this book.


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## SHARK (Jun 12, 2002)

Greetings!

Hey Maldur, I'm glad that you like the book! It is truly excellent!

Caesar had joined the Legions when he was 18 years old, and served with distinction and courage. War was an essential ingredient to Roman society, and Caesar was both--a general and a politician. In Rome, military glory was absolutely interwoven throughout political life. It was extremely rare for a Roman Senator to even be a Senator, or certainly reach a position of prominence, without military service and glory. Thus, the shrewd Roman politician made sure to gain not only extensive military experience, but to achieve military glory in order to secure his political career.

The Roman Legionairies were able to build a fortified camp at the end of every day by virtue of not only discipline and skill, but by the fact that there were *thousands* of men who were set to work immediately in constructing the fortified camp. While thousands worked to establish the camp, others stood guard, armed and ready. By routine practice and experience, the Romans could have the fortified camp completed rather quickly. The Roman encampment's simple yet effective design, layout, and organization, made it relatively easy to master, and with practice, speed and efficiency was achieved.

Indeed, the Romans were the greatest and most skilled infantry in history, and the most effective and dangerous until the advent of gunpowder.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Maldur (Jun 13, 2002)

> Indeed, the Romans were the greatest and most skilled infantry in history, and the most effective and dangerous until the advent of gunpowder.




What if some roman scientist had invented effective gunpowder weapons?



> By routine practice and experience, the Romans could have the fortified camp completed rather quickly.




Still the mind boggles. A fortress a day! A slightly less labor intensive camp sound more economic ( you could march further, use less resources, etc). But they seem to have found it worth it. Makes you wonder how unpopular legions were, or the level of paranoia the romans had ? 

The scale and speed of legions keep amazing me. 

Before sailing to Britain for a years campaign, they marched on triest and they recovered a deserting auxilarynear paris . 

800 ships, 5 legions, large cavalary groups.

Recruiting and outfitting of a legion was done in a matter of weeks.

Makes you wonder what more was lost during the dark ages?

What chapter are we on anyway?


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## Reprisal (Jun 13, 2002)

> What if some roman scientist had invented effective gunpowder weapons?




There's actually an RPG called FVLMINATA out there somewhere that addresses that question directly... Imagine if Rome never fell as it did... Imagine how different the world would be!


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## SHARK (Jun 13, 2002)

Greetings!

Indeed, the Roman Legions were the best! Their speed and discipline is simply incredible!

For the benefit of some of the other readers, I think we are lingering on Chapter II in order to allow others to catch up. Gradually moving into Chapter III. 

How's that sound? Anyone have any thoughts on what they have read in chapter I and II? What do you think of the story so far, and what kind of inspiration for the game, perhaps, have you had from the reading?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## TheBurnedManAtWork (Jun 13, 2002)

http://historymedren.about.com/library/prm/bl1mongolinvasion.htm

Whattabout the Mongols?


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## Maldur (Jun 14, 2002)

What about them?  Were reading and commenting on a book about A roman legion, and even though Im only about 4 chapters into the book I can pretty much say the mongols have nothing to do with it.

If you wanna join in ( and your welcome) see the begining of the thread, find the mentioned book, and join the fun.  Or if I totaly misunderstood your question: please elaborate so I do know what the relevancy is.

Cheerz, Maldur


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## Reprisal (Jun 15, 2002)

*Bump! And some random musings...*

Hehe, I just finished reading Chapter 3.  It's full of great stuff, and some of the best I've read about Rome.

I was also thinking about those rules pertaining to pillaging and what-not...  They seem very intelligently constructed, and serve as an incentive to fight.  The simple idea that if an enemy town resisted, the whole legion divided the spoils equally; and if the town surrendered, the generals would decide how to divide the spoils.

I also like the fact that Caesar paid his troops bonuses after a successful campaign.  It seems to me that people always underline the terrible life of the soldiers in the Middle Ages...

I'll be saying this a lot, but imagine if Roman military sensiblities survived into the Middle Ages!  Great book, and it's giving me ideas pertaining to the structure of the Vast Empire of Kalamar's Legions in the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting.

It's too bad that shortswords have no advantages in game that they seemed to have in the tight ranks of the Legions...

*Pilum* - _Medium Martial Weapon (Ranged)_

This weapon is a four foot length of wood with a two foot length of malleable iron attached. This weapon is used strictly for throwing, as using it in mélée is extremely difficult. In times of dire need, it may be used at -4 to Hit in Hand-To-Hand combat.

*Cost:* 1 Gold Piece
*Damage:* 1D6
*Critical:* 20/x2
*Range Increment:* 30 ft.
*Weight:* 3 lbs
*Damage Type:* Piercing
*Special:*
- In the event that a Pilum thrower misses his initial attack, he may roll again as an Attack-A-Weapon action. If this second attack is successful, it does no damage to the target. Instead, the pilum imbeds itself into the shield, where it takes 1D6 damage, and the shield's user loses its AC bonus. The user of the target shield may take a full-round action, which invokes an attack of opportunity, to remove the pilum and regain its AC bonus. Once the Pilum is removed, it cannot be used again until it is repaired with a Craft (Weaponsmith) check at DC 12, due to the iron shaft of the Pilum bending upon impact.


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## mmadsen (Jun 16, 2002)

> Thus, the shrewd Roman politician made sure to gain not only extensive military experience, but to achieve military glory in order to secure his political career.




The quest for glory seems to lead to odd strategic decisions, e.g. invade Britain, then go home.


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## Maldur (Jun 17, 2002)

Wasn't the invasion of britain more of a Punishment campaign. and a way of securing hostages, so the british tribes wouldn't attack romans again ( or assist others to do so)?

An dishing out revenge/punishment campaign is good for your prestige back in Rome.

Im getting a feeling ceasar was only a good general because he had to!! He had to win, so he could become president for life (viva la revolution!) It does make him not even half as nobel as popular history makes him. (Damn another dream scattered)


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## Ulrick (Jun 17, 2002)

It seems like everything from Roman times just screams the word:

EPIC.

I'm definitely gonna buy that book when I get some money.

Roman history can easily be coverted into a D&D game plot because so much EPIC stuff happened.

Which, as of late, I've been doing to a certain extent.

Ulrick


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## SHARK (Jun 17, 2002)

Greetings!

Dig in Ulrick! Dig in!

Chapter III: Savaging The Swiss, Overrunning The Germans
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Quote, page 14:

"...then had his legionaries build a sixteen-foot earth wall for eighteen miles along the bank of the Rhone from Lake Geneva to the Jura Mountains."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

What a feat of engineering skill! Imagine how constraining to the enemy such a fortification would be! The Romans seemed to be absolute masters of integrating even small engineering field-fortifications into a battle in the field, regardless of terrain, and regardless of whether the Romans were on the offensive, or the defensive. This magnificent skill was decisive in so many battles that the Romans engaged in, even against opponents that greatly outnumbered them. Soemthing else indeed!



____________________________________________________
Quote, page 23:

"Even though they had been unprepared to fight, the Germans opposite ran so quickly to the attack that the legionaries didn't evn have time to throw their javelins. Dropping them, they drew their swords as the two armies came together."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

The Germans seemed to display unflinching courage and zeal for battle at all times, regardless of the odds against them. Even then, over 2000 years ago, the Germans were famous for courage and awesome military skills!



____________________________________________________
Quote, page 23:

"Undaunted, men of the 10th brushed aside the spears and literally threw themselves on the front line of the German shields. Some wrenched shields out of the hands of their owners. Others reached over the top of the shields and stabbed the points of their swords into German faces. Using these aggressive tactics, the 10th soon routed the German left."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

The Romans answered the German's courage with absolute ferocity on their own! What a scene! Imagine the smaller Romans, lean and muscular, screaming in fury as they threw themselves against the larger Germans again and again, unrelenting!



____________________________________________________
Quote, page 23:

"King Ariovistus and one or two others escaped in boats. But all the rest, including the king's wives and daughters, were hunted down and killed or captured by the Roman cavalry. East of the Rhine, when the Suebi reinforcements heard of the disastrous battle, they turned and fled for home. The 10th Legion could add another victory to its growing roll of honour."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

What alignment would the Roman cavalry be as they rode down the women and children? They can be expected to have raped and slaughtered the German women and children with ruthless ferocity. The Roman commanders encouraged such ferocity and terror. Interestingly, in our modern times, some claim that such ferocity of domination and slaughter will only serve to harden the enemies resistance against you, and create more resistance. History doesn't seem to bare that idea out. In the Romans case, they just continued to rape, slaughter, and enslave, until there were no enemies left to resist. Any peoples that remained on the sidelines certainly didn't think to resist. They quickly got ont heir knees and scraped and begged for mercy before the Roman might. The Romans didn't give a damn what these other tribes and peoples thought. They just crushed them ruthlessly until they got on their knees and begged for the Romans to spare them. What a foreign policy that made!

Damn! The Romans are just relentless!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Reprisal (Jun 17, 2002)

*Alignment*

Alignment-wise, I would have to say that the Roman Legions trained their soldiers to obey orders almost reflexively.  Therefore, it would seem that they are trained to take on a distinct Lawful-Neutral alignment.  While some Legionnaires may be Good or Evil, collectively, the Roman Legions were very much Neutral along the Good-Evil axis.  Their discipline shines through like nothing else...

In Chapter 4,  I found the Eagle-Bearer something of an amazing character in and of himself, but I'm getting ahead of myself, hehe.

Great book, full of ideas,


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## mmadsen (Jun 19, 2002)

> "Undaunted, men of the 10th brushed aside the spears and literally threw themselves on the front line of the German shields. Some wrenched shields out of the hands of their owners. Others reached over the top of the shields and stabbed the points of their swords into German faces. Using these aggressive tactics, the 10th soon routed the German left."




Wrenching down shields and stabbing over the top, for the eyes.  Love it!



> Imagine the smaller Romans, lean and muscular, screaming in fury as they threw themselves against the larger Germans again and again, unrelenting!




Imagine what enough Goblins can do...


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## Maldur (Jun 19, 2002)

After reading ahead a few chapters, I noticeda decline in descriptive combats. I hopethe book doesn't end in a dry list of :  "Legion A moves to Place B where they fight Tribe C".

I have said it before and Ill say it again: "Romans keep suprising me on one thing: SCALE"

These people are scary!


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## mmadsen (Jun 20, 2002)

> After reading ahead a few chapters, I noticeda decline in descriptive combats.




Agreed.  



> I hopethe book doesn't end in a dry list of :  "Legion A moves to Place B where they fight Tribe C".




As you'll see, the book starts to give more quick summaries of "offscreen" action, more examples of "maybe the 10th was there", etc.  There are still good bits though.


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## Rashak Mani (Jun 20, 2002)

>>>  "King Ariovistus and one or two others escaped in boats. But all the rest, including the king's wives and daughters, were hunted down and killed or captured by the Roman cavalry."

What alignment would the Roman cavalry be as they rode down the women and children? They can be expected to have raped and slaughtered the German women and children with ruthless ferocity. The Roman commanders encouraged such ferocity and terror.  <<<<<<<<<<

    Seems thou that the Kings family is specifically mentioned in this quote (i dont have the book)... was it limited as a kind of punishment to the close allies and family of this King ?  Or was it understood as a people wide campaign of terror ?  

    Most Governors in this time and age were ruthless... the peasants probably didnt care to much for any of them.


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## mmadsen (Jun 22, 2002)

*Chapter IV -- Conquering Gaul*

It had been a short but profitable campaign for the men of the 10th.  They had stripped thousands of dead Swiss and German troops.

This is sounding much more like D&D than I expected!

Caesar himself had gone to northern Italy to carry out his duties as chief judge of his provinces...

Something for high-level heroes to do besides plunder even meaner monsters' lairs.

Against him it was estimated that the tribes of the Belgae could muster 260,000 mean...

These numbers still amaze me.

The Nervii were a proud people, famous fighters originally from Germany who even barred traders from selling wine in their territory because they believed it made men soft...

Not the image I had of Germanic barbarians...

To further awe the Germans, Caesar then had his legions put a wooden bridge across the rhine, near modern Koblenz.  Forty feet wide, according to Caesar it took just ten days to build.

Again, the engineering!


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## mmadsen (Jun 24, 2002)

> It seems like everything from Roman times just screams the word:  EPIC.




All without any magic.  At all.


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## Black Omega (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Chapter IV -- Conquering Gaul*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *"It had been a short but profitable campaign for the men of the 10th.  They had stripped thousands of dead Swiss and German troops."
> 
> This is sounding much more like D&D than I expected!*



Heh.  It certainly did help espirt de corp(sp).  Looting, pillaging andrapewere the tangible rewards legionnaires would get fighting for Rome.

*



			"The Nervii were a proud people, famous fighters originally from Germany who even barred traders from selling wine in their territory because they believed it made men soft..."

Not the image I had of Germanic barbarians...
		
Click to expand...


*Barbarians always get a bad rap here in fantasy.  If memory serves me correctly the German tribes were often more straightlaced than other barbarians.  And quite a few barbarian tribes looked at Rome as decadant, at least in the Imperial period.


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## mmadsen (Jun 24, 2002)

*Chapter V -- Invading Britain*

With tense expresssions, all on board the eighty transports and the dozen warships of their escort strained their eyes to study the foreign land ahead as the white cliffs of Dover began to shine luminously in the new day's light....On board the transports, locally built craft with relatively flat bottoms, high prows, and sterns and powered by just a single square saild each, were the Spanish legionaries of the 10th and 7th Legions, with an average of 150 mean to each troopship.

That's 80 men/transport x 150 transports = 1200 men.  And now that we're getting used to Roman armies, that's a pretty small force.

Observing the ships from the heights were British tribesmen, cavalry and infantry, fully armed and waiting in their war paint -- their exposed upper bodies and grim faces daubed in wild, tattoolike pattern with blue-green woad, a plant dye.

Excellent visual -- and a great "special effect" for protective magic in D&D.

It was now that the _aquilifer_ of the 10th Legion, the bearer of its eagle standard, took the step that was to immortalize him, although his name has not come down to us.  No more than twenty-seven years of age, he probably uttered the Legionary's Prayer: 'Jupiter Greatest and Best, protect this legion, soldiers all,' adding, according to Caesar, 'May my act bring good luck to us all.'  Then he went over the side with the eagle of the 10th.

Who doesn't love that?  None of the armored troops want to jump into chest-high waters, but the standard bearer jumps right in -- and they can't let their standard fall to the enemy, can they?

The eagle of the legion, silver at this time, gold by imperial times, was venerated by its legionaries.  Kept at an altar in camp with lamps burning throughout the night, it and the ground it stood on were considered sacred.

Now that's magic -- or what magic should feel like.

The British envoys now asked for peace.  In return, Caesar demanded hostages.

There are so many things to do to losers besides kill them: enslave them, take hostages (to ensure their good word), etc.

The legion hadn't been at work many minutes when, out of the blue, javelins began slicing into the ground around the feet of bent and toiling soldiers nearest the woods.  Moments later, with terrifying war cries, thousands of Britons came streaming from the trees...

Another great image!


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## Yuan-Ti (Jun 25, 2002)

It's been fun reading along in this thread, even though I passed on the book. But it occurred to me some of you might like this book as well: *The Western Way of War: Infantry Battle in Classical Greece* (1989) by Victor Davis Hansen

Anyone read it? 

I posted a very brief review of it on my website. You can check it out under Ancient Warfare. I don't update my site anymore -- long story starting with several months of technical problems, then having a job that prevented me from reading and writing reviews, and currently I just am not reading much history... though having just finished *Bravo Two Zero* maybe a long-overdue update is coming. 

Here's my website:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/thehussar/

And here is a direct link to the review of  Hansen's book:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/thehussar/ancient.html#hanson


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## mmadsen (Jun 25, 2002)

> http://mitglied.lycos.de/thehussar/




Yuan-ti, thanks for link.  I've been perusing your Literate Hussar site and adding even more books to my must-read list.  I loved _Gates of Fire_, I enjoyed _Warfare in the Classical World_, and I've been meaning to read Thucydides.  Now I guess I should add Vegetius and Xenophon.  If Hansen's _The Western Way of War: Infantry Battle in Classical Greece_ supplied most of the factoids for _Gates of Fire_, well, I have to read that too!

By the way, for everyone reading _Caesar's Legion_, I just got my copy of _Caesar's Legions_ (note the "s") by Sekunda.  It's full of color plates, black-and-white photography, and line art.  It looks great.  (Thanks, SHARK, for the wonderful recommendation!)


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## mmadsen (Jun 26, 2002)

*Chapter V -- Invading Britain (continued)*

The Britons had hidden in the woods all night, knowing the legionaries would return in the morning for the last of the wheat.

Clearly the Britons were Ftr1/Rog1... 

The chariots sped up.  Running back and forth along the Roman line, the vehicles were hard-to-hit weapon platforms, with the nobles standing beside the drivers and hurling javelins on each pass.  The noise of pounding hooves and drumming wheels would have been deafening, with the legionaries losing count of how many chariots there were -- hundreds, maybe thousands.

That paints quite a picture!  Now imagine chariots pulled by rhinos, giant lizards, etc.

Sometimes the drivers would run out onto the chariot pole as far as the yoke as the chariots careered along at full speed, then ran back to their driving positions, as quick as lightning, just to awe the men...

Sounds like quite a bonus to one's Intimidation check...

When traveling to and from Gaul, while carried in a litter he always had one of his secretaries riding with him, taking down dictation.

Julius Caesar really is the busy executive on the go, dictating his latest management book to his secretary while traveling to and from the battle lines.  Wow.

And because intrigue is the currency of politics, Caesar had invented a secret cipher, known only to his most intimate friends, involving the transposition of letters on the written page.

Who doesn't love secret codes and ciphers?  Shouldn't wizards do everything in code?

One of the nonmilitary projects Caesar was working on in Britain was a scientific study of the length of the days on the island.

Is there anything this guy doesn't do?


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## mmadsen (Jun 26, 2002)

*Chapter V -- Invading Britain (continued)*

While Caesar spent the winter on business in northern Italy and the Balkans...

That seems entirely too modern, doesn't it?  He's able to spend the winter in temperate northern Italy.

The previous year the Britons had seen little more than 80 Roman vessels of their shores.  Now they were staggered to see 800....The Spanish Armada of 1588 would comprise only a paltry 130 vessels, carrying little more than 19,000 troops.

The Romans show up on British shores with 50,000 troops.  Wow.

Locking their shields over their heads in the _testudo_, or "tortoise" formation, the 7th went forward against British stones and javelins, and under cover of the _testudos_ heaped earth against the walls of the stockade to form ramps, an activity that took several hours.  They then surged up the ramps in formation and dropped into the stockade.

Insane.  Their shields provided enough cover, at least locked together in formation, that they were able to work for hours piling dirt into ramps just outside the stockade walls without casualties.  If this was fiction, I'd dismiss it as completely unbelievable.


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## SHARK (Jun 26, 2002)

Greetings!

Chapter V: Invading Britain

Quote:
____________________________________________________
Pg. 42.

"When Caesar arrived back in Brittany in the spring of 54 B.C., he found he now had twenty-eight warships and more than six hundred new transports at his disposal, built from local timber, their sails and tackle brought up from Spain."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

It always amazes me that in contrast to the often bewildering, unpredictable, and unreliable travel networks during the Dark and Middle Ages, here in the Roman Republic, the merest of things like ship-sails and tackle, let alone something very valuable, can be so easily and assuredly transported over hundreds of miles--from Spain to northern France--to Caesar, waiting for it eagerly for his fleet. This example, like the fleets shipping grain in mass quantities and on regular schedules from Egypt to Rome, as well as regular mail and newspapers, just continues to impress me on how far more organized and capable were our ancestors than is so often believed. In the game, the Dark and Middle Ages are always held up as somehow the defining paradigm of all that is achievable, when again and again, the achievements of the ancients, like the Romans, is often of far greater level in scope, skill, and glory.




Quote:
____________________________________________________
Pg. 43

"Since daybreak they'd been watching the horizon fill with hundreds of sails, and been dazzled by the thousands of flashing oars. The previous year the Britons had seen little more than 80 Roman vessels off their shores. Now they were staggered to see 800. As the hours passed, the Dover Strait darkened with brown hulls. Never again would an invasion fleet as large as this come to Britain's shores. The Spanish Armada of 1588 would comprise only a paltry 130 vessels, carrying little more than 19,000 troops."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

800 ships! Hello! Let's see--that's the 10th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 12th Legions--some 50,000 and more soldiers!--with more in France if Caesar needs them! That also includes perhaps over 2000 cavalry! Damn! Imagine all the engineers, support troops, archers, and so on--that supported the powerful legions. This enormous invasion force--which actually represented only a fraction of what was available to all of Rome--after all, Caesar did not have all of the Roman Legions under his command--Pompey, and other generals had many more legions under their own commands. Still, this powerful invasion force hits the coast of Britain like a storm!

The Spanish Armada looks weak by comparison! 130 vessels, and 19,000 soldiers? Compared to Caesar's mighty legions, that is more like a scouting expedition! This is just staggering! In game terms, people often claim that 5000 men is a huge army! Please! It becomes more and more apparent with study how powerful and skilled our ancient ancestors were--and it also puts into perspective, contrary to the opinion of some historians--that there was indeed a "Dark Ages." European civilization, glory, and power clearly and decisively declined for 1000 years and more after the fall of the Roman Empire. Interesting, 54 B.C.-1588 A.D. is *FIFTEEN-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-FOUR YEARS* and Europe still couldn't achieve what Caesar had commanded. Something else, I'll tell ya! Imagine the unknown terror among the Britons! Imagine them trembling in fear as the sea itself disappears under the hulls and sails of 800 warships! It must have simply been unimaginable to them!




Quote:
____________________________________________________
Pg. 44

"Throughout his career, Julius Caesar made a habit of marching in the early hours of the morning to catch his adversaries off guard, and a little after midnight, leaving his least experienced legion, the 12th, together with three hundred cavalry, to guard the new camp under the command of General Quintus Atrius, Caesar marched into the night with his four Spanish legions and seventeen hundred cavalry."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Really, look at this. Just after midnight, Caesar marches off into the night with four legions and 1700 cavalry! Caesar does this kind of bold command and assault on a routine basis. He just doesn't quit! Keep in mind, Caesar is pushing fifty years old here, and he is always in front, always in command! In the game, it seems that many are perplexed by any characters or generals, doing anything so bold as this. I can hear the shouts now--"That's not possible. That's not realistic. That many troops would get lost. They can't march like that in the dark. They can't possibly stay organized. Surely they would get lost!" and so on!

Here, Caesar shows us all how it's done! What courage and daring on his part, heh?




Quote:
____________________________________________________
Pg. 45

"Toiling around the clock, with oil lamps burning through the night at the repair sites and work teams rostered in shifts, the damaged vessels were all repaired within ten days. The ships were then hauled up onto the beach, all 760 of them, and enclosed on three sides by fortifications extending down to the water's edge from the camp."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Here is another massive achievement! In ten days? Hello? Then also notice that Caesar's legions built a fortress that enclosed the entire port! Fortified naval bases in ten days! Damn, these Romans are incredible! This is very inspiring stuff! Imagine, if the Romans could do these great feats with only strength, sweat, discipline, and iron will, --what could a similar group accomplish in the game with magic? I love fortified ports! That is so cool.




Quote:
____________________________________________________
Pg. 48

"The stronghold was full of warriors and cattle, and Caesar wasted no time sending the legions against it. They attacked from two sides, the ferocity of their assault sending the defenders fleeing over a third wall in terror."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Imagine the Roman legionaries streaming into the fort, swords hacking, spears stabbing, with growling and clenched teeth as the men struggle to the death! Imagine the blood spattering on the shining armour, and the shouted curses as the Roman soldiers leap to the slaughter, cutting down the barbarians as they seek to flee! The smell of burning wood, blood, and the terrified cattle running about as bodies lay everywhere, and smoke begins to rise from the burning fortress! Then, the exultant cries of the victorious Roman soldiers as they cheer their centurions! What a sight indeed!

MMADSEN, this is just fantastic! The visuals and ideas are so vivid and striking! The inspiration for the game is very cool! I like the idea of using standards and different kinds of magic as you mentioned. Imagine that, as well as their tattoo-magic of the barbarian warriors! There are so many cool ideas swimming through my mind! Roman weapons, armour, war machines, Roman priests, War magic, Celtic Druids, tattoo magic, magical paints, magical standards, enchanted music and horns, the list just goes on and on!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Maldur (Jun 26, 2002)

These romans are a good example of :  "reality is stranger than fiction".

I think it quite brutal that the other legions stood around watching. That is quite an insult to those britons. ( ok, well come and kill you , but as you can see well send in only one third of our troops)

Again scale going across, with 800 ships and 50000 troops, ramsacking the  country for a summer, then return to the mainland destroying the massive fortress ( it housed 800 breached ships!!!). 

Join the legions and learn a few trades( fighting, building, digging), train your str, dex and con. Get loot and land!  Meet interesting foreign cultures and destroy them.

Scale, and brutal efficiency.

unfortunately the book goes into the legion A fought tribe B at place C.  intresting but not as crunchy as the beginning of the book.

Also:  Ceasar is an . He is good at his job(s), he  is a acompliced tactician, general, politician, writer, scientist, etc, etc  But He is totaly selfish, everything he does is to further his plan of world domination.


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## Yuan-Ti (Jun 26, 2002)

MMadsen, glad you like the website. Looking at it again and talking about it here made me want to put up some new reviews, actually. 

Regarding magical standards: having played Warhammer (Battles but also the RPG) in my increasingly distant teen years, I have always looked for ways to bring magic standards into a D&D game. When armies march it makes good sense, but since PCs are only occasionally directly involved in major battles you have to look for other inspiration. I have had two:

1) War is brewing and the invading Tarrathian Minotaurs  are rumored to have sent a party to search for the ancient Great Bull, a battle standard carried by an ancient emperor and dedicated to the god of the minotaurs. History says that armies carrying this standard have never been defeated. The PCs must find the standard before the minotaur heroes or recover it before they can bring it to their army.

2) The PCs are sent in to face the power of a local Fire Giant duke. The initial assault goes well and they withdraw to rest and recover. Returning they find the duke, his high priest and bodyguards gathered around a great standard depicting a red dragon. Imagine the PCs surprise when the standard shoots a fireball at them...

The powers you can come up with for standards can range from subtle (fear, aid) to in-your-face (fireballs, globe of invulnerability). 

Edit: Plus, the Roman Standard Bearer just SCREAMS for a prestige class...

FUN FUN FUN!


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## Rashak Mani (Jun 26, 2002)

Did he really need that many troops against the backward britons ?  50,000 ? Any real resistance was expected ?   This surely seems like an inflated number no ?


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## SHARK (Jun 26, 2002)

Greetings!

Hello Rashak Mani No, the numbers are not "inflated." Rome routinely fielded armies of such size. The Roman Republic, and later the Roman Empire, had the population and the organization to raise large armies of tens and hundreds of thousands of troops. When an army died, it was soon replaced. Caesar in his invasion of Britain only had under his command a rather small part of the armies available at the time to the Roman Republic.

The sources are all compared and checked by many different historical methods, including the Criterion of Multiple Attestation, for example. The author--Stephen Dando-Collins, has done an excellent job in research for the book. It's great stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Jun 27, 2002)

> It always amazes me that in contrast to the often bewildering, unpredictable, and unreliable travel networks during the Dark and Middle Ages, here in the Roman Republic, the merest of things like ship-sails and tackle, let alone something very valuable, can be so easily and assuredly transported over hundreds of miles--from Spain to northern France--to Caesar, waiting for it eagerly for his fleet.




It's sad to realize that Roman roads were the best roads in medieval Europe, years and years after the empire fell.



> This example, like the fleets shipping grain in mass quantities and on regular schedules from Egypt to Rome, as well as regular mail and newspapers, just continues to impress me on how far more organized and capable were our ancestors than is so often believed.




The newspaper, delivered by Pony Express, is what kills me.  Amazing.


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## mmadsen (Jun 28, 2002)

> MMadsen, glad you like the website.




Good stuff, Yuan-Ti.  Good stuff.



> Looking at it again and talking about it here made me want to put up some new reviews, actually.




Get to it then! 

Speaking of military history book reviews, can anyone recommend a basic primer on strategy and tactics?  I can remember always wanting to learn the basics as a kid, and I could never find anything concrete enough and simple enough for, say, a junior-high kid (or a busy adult).


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## mmadsen (Jun 28, 2002)

> 800 ships!...That also includes perhaps over 2000 cavalry! Damn!




I don't want to be on _that_ ship.



> European civilization, glory, and power clearly and decisively declined for 1000 years and more after the fall of the Roman Empire. Interesting, 54 B.C.-1588 A.D. is *FIFTEEN-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-FOUR YEARS* and Europe still couldn't achieve what Caesar had commanded.




Once you understand how Rome compared to the later medieval Europeans, you can understand the difference between Middle Earth's First and Third Ages, between Atlantis and later Hyboria, and between the ancient past and here & now in most any D&D setting.

We live in a peculiar time, one where we _expect_ progress.  _Of course_ technology will continue to improve; that's what technology does!  Right?  Until you have a small civil war in your country...


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## SHARK (Jun 28, 2002)

Greetings!

Hey there Matt! Write me!

Now, indeed, I agree with you. The civila wars, the strife, and ultimately the fall of the Roman Empire opened up a doorway of darkness, and a vast regression. In isolated instances, like the stirrup and a few other areas, progress was in fact made. But across so many fronts--literacy, philosophy, engineering, mass-farming, travel, laws, military organization, politics, medicine, and on and on, there was an enormous decline and loss. Most of which wasn't recovered until the 18th and 19th centuries. The sad thing is, with the burning of the Great Library at Alexandria in the early B.C.--where it was said that over 500,000 books, scrolls, papyri, and so on, were stored! Much of which was said to contain knowledge from the earliest memories and history of man. Can you believe that? It was said that there was such vast and ancient knowledge there, from when man first recorded history! Imagine the knowledge! Imagine what was lost! Imagine that there may have been the knowledge of the Pyramids, or Stonehenge, or trans-atlantic travel, or the ancient ways of Egypt, of Babylon, of Troy, and Mycenae! Things that we must now suffice ourselves with bits and pieces. Imagine what we might know--imagine what the Romans might have known, had they captured the Great Library intact?

Oh, the loss. I would give my left arm to travel back in time to spend just a month secluded in the Great Library!

The Romans hit Britain with an invasion force that they could not even concieve of. Caesar proved himself again and again the master of warfare, and of politics. It is just incredible that things that medieval Europe thought impossible or fantastic, were *ROUTINE* to Caesar, and to Rome!

In reading all of this, it confirms to me the limitations in playing the game with such "medieval mindsets." I like the Middle Ages, actually, but the knowledge and reality of the Ancients often offering so many brilliant, epic possibilities just makes many of the medieval assumptions weak. I like the epic possibilities--nay, the epic REALITIES of the ancient world! They are so evocative, so powerful, and yet--truth is stranger than fiction!--for much of the ancient ways is TRUTH!

Next up--Chapter VI: REVOLT AND REVENGE

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Jun 28, 2002)

> Regarding magical standards: having played Warhammer (Battles but also the RPG) in my increasingly distant teen years, I have always looked for ways to bring magic standards into a D&D game.




I think we can all agree that magical standards _rock_.



> When armies march it makes good sense, but since PCs are only occasionally directly involved in major battles you have to look for other inspiration.




This reminds me of how useful a game like _Chainmail_ could have been.  I'd love to see characters involved in major battles on a regular basis.



> War is brewing and the invading Tarrathian Minotaurs  are rumored to have sent a party to search for the ancient Great Bull, a battle standard carried by an ancient emperor and dedicated to the god of the minotaurs. History says that armies carrying this standard have never been defeated. The PCs must find the standard before the minotaur heroes or recover it before they can bring it to their army.




Good standard-as-MacGuffin scenario set-up.



> The PCs are sent in to face the power of a local Fire Giant duke. The initial assault goes well and they withdraw to rest and recover. Returning they find the duke, his high priest and bodyguards gathered around a great standard depicting a red dragon. Imagine the PCs surprise when the standard shoots a fireball at them...




Mechanically, I guess a standard can just be a wand/rod/staff.



> The powers you can come up with for standards can range from subtle (fear, aid) to in-your-face (fireballs, globe of invulnerability).




I'm a big fan of subtle. 



> Edit: Plus, the Roman Standard Bearer just SCREAMS for a prestige class...




I'm not quite sure what he'd do though...


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## Leopold (Jun 29, 2002)

B&N didn't have the book..they were lost..have they no clue on JC?? FOOLS! I splurged and bought it from amazon..they had it..thank god..


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## mmadsen (Jun 30, 2002)

> B&N didn't have the book..they were lost..have they no clue on JC?? FOOLS! I splurged and bought it from amazon..they had it..thank god..




Welcome, Leopold!  Now get reading!  Fortunately, Chapter VI is only 50 pages into the book.  You can probably catch up in an hour or two.


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## Maldur (Jul 1, 2002)

Im a bit busy at the moment but Ill get back to the book somewhere this week.  

Tip: dont forget your girlfriends birthday (ooops, stupid me)


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## mmadsen (Jul 1, 2002)

> The sad thing is, with the burning of the Great Library at Alexandria in the early B.C.--where it was said that over 500,000 books, scrolls, papyri, and so on, were stored! Much of which was said to contain knowledge from the earliest memories and history of man. Can you believe that? It was said that there was such vast and ancient knowledge there, from when man first recorded history! Imagine the knowledge! Imagine what was lost!...Oh, the loss. I would give my left arm to travel back in time to spend just a month secluded in the Great Library!




You might want to keep your left arm until you've learned enough ancient Greek -- and whatever other languages! -- to actually read some of those scrolls.


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## Leopold (Jul 1, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Welcome, Leopold!  Now get reading!  Fortunately, Chapter VI is only 50 pages into the book.  You can probably catch up in an hour or two. *




only 50 pages into it? I will tear through it like  a hot knife through butter..amazon shipped my order today so i should have it by thursday..i will have to recap a bit on early likes and dislikes of the novel to keep up and rehash the first few chapters with y'all...


HEY SHARK! you going to gencon boyo?


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## mmadsen (Jul 2, 2002)

> Speaking of military history book reviews, can anyone recommend a basic primer on strategy and tactics?  I can remember always wanting to learn the basics as a kid, and I could never find anything concrete enough and simple enough for, say, a junior-high kid (or a busy adult).




Can anyone recommend _Strategy_, by Basil Henry Liddell Hart?  It sounds like what I've been looking for.

I definitely felt that Sun Tzu's _Art of War_ and Musashi's _Book of Five Rings_, while interesting, were far too abstract and metaphorical for down-to-earth strategy books.


----------



## Leopold (Jul 2, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I definitely felt that Sun Tzu's Art of War and Musashi's Book of Five Rings, while interesting, were far too abstract and metaphorical for down-to-earth strategy books. *






i on the other hand thought Sun Tzu is the perfect primer for dealing in war tactics "Do not attack the capital, attack the cities, do not attack the enemy when the enemy's back is to the wall, etc." There are hundreds of such tactics and ideas held in that book that the Military REQUIRES all their ROTC/Cadets/OTS officers read it and learn it.

Even after 3000 years the book still holds merrit..water..be like water...


----------



## mmadsen (Jul 2, 2002)

> i on the other hand thought Sun Tzu is the perfect primer for dealing in war tactics




For anyone interested in Sun Tzu's _Art of War_, here's an on-line e-text: http://www.chinapage.com/philosophy/sunzi/sunzi-e.html



> "Do not attack the capital, attack the cities, do not attack the enemy when the enemy's back is to the wall, etc." There are hundreds of such tactics and ideas held in that book that the Military REQUIRES all their ROTC/Cadets/OTS officers read it and learn it.
> 
> Even after 3000 years the book still holds merrit..water..be like water...




My point was not that it was a bad book not worth reading, simply that it was not a down-to-earth introduction to strategy.  For every straightforward "do not attack the capital" there is a metaphorical "be like water".

(Back on topic...)


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## mmadsen (Jul 2, 2002)

*Chapter V -- Invading Britain (one last anecdote)*

I love this anecdote:

A lone legionary, almost certainly a man of Caesar's bodyguard from the 10th Legion, threw himself at the tribesmen and fought them off, allowing the officers to make their way to solid ground.  The legionary then took to the water and, partly by swimming and partly by wading, joined the officers.  But in the process he had to let go of his shield.  As Caesar and his companions came up to him to congratulate him on his deed, the soldier dropped to his knees in front of the general.

"Forgive me, Caesar," said the soldier, close to tears.

"Forgive you?"  Caesar responded with surprise. "But why?"

"For losing my shield," the legionary replied with genuine concern.  Under legion regulations, he could be severely punished.


----------



## Leopold (Jul 3, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> For anyone interested in Sun Tzu's Art of War, here's an on-line e-text: http://www.chinapage.com/philosophy/sunzi/sunzi-e.html
> 
> ...




i will still aruge the contrary! But we digress. Back to the legions.

i crushed through chapters 1 and 2. I love the fact that they had a cliffhanger in chapter one waiting until page 173(yes i checked) to pick up where it left off. The sheer fact that these troops were raised, organized, and deployed in weeks instead of months is a testament to the training they recieved. I am at the battle for the swiss and saw how easy the legions defeated a force much larger than them by tactics and equipment rather than brute force.

That's what makes or breaks an army is the caliber of the officers that lead and the way they instruct and command respect from their troops. Calipsan (guessing here) leads his troops from the front line by example rather than rallying from behind them. He shows them that if he can do it they can do it, and inspires his troops. That's brave and gutsy and has a greater chance of death for a good leader, but in those days out of the 5 or 6 generals only 2/3 were capable and the rest useless..not a good ratio!

back on track!


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## optimizer (Jul 3, 2002)

Howdy!



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Can anyone recommend Strategy, by Basil Henry Liddell Hart?  It sounds like what I've been looking for.
> 
> *




It has been over 20 years since I read it, but as I recall it may be what you want (I thought of that book when I first saw your post above).  It provides his theory on strategy, supported with examples from history.

I hope that this helps.

Mike


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## mmadsen (Jul 3, 2002)

> It has been over 20 years since I read it, but as I recall it may be what you want (I thought of that book when I first saw your post above).  It provides his theory on strategy, supported with examples from history.




Thanks, Mike/optimizer.  My reading list keeps getting longer and longer...

To tie together Hart (a proponent of maneuver warfare, from what I've read) and Sun Tzu, I'll quote from the _Art of War_: "Maneuvering with an army is advantageous; with an undisciplined multitude, most dangerous."

(OK, back on topic...)


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## mmadsen (Jul 3, 2002)

*Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge*

A few hundred men managed to fight their way back to the camp, but most of the others, including Generals Sabinus and Cotta, were surrounded and killed in the ambush, fighting to the last man in an _orbis_, the Roman army's circular formation of last resort.

Grim image, but the notion of a special, named, last-resort formation sounds like it belongs in a bad _anime_. 

That night, the survivors holding the camp, out of ammunition, out of food, and out of hope, entered into a pact, and every man took his own life.  In the forest and in the camp, more than eight thousand legionaries died that day.

I'm not sure what to say.  Imagine watching thousands of your friends and allies killed in an ambush.  Then imagine being one of a few hundred left -- and knowing you're next.

As an aside, "ammunition" always sounds wrong to me when it's not referring to modern gun ammunition.

From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:

Main Entry: am·mu·ni·tion 
Pronunciation: "am-y&-'ni-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: obsolete French amunition, from Middle French, alteration of munition
Date: circa 1626
1 a : the projectiles with their fuses, propelling charges, or primers fired from guns b : CARTRIDGES c : explosive military items (as grenades or bombs)
2 : material for use in attacking or defending a position <ammunition for the defense lawyers> 

Main Entry: mu·ni·tion 
Pronunciation: myu-'ni-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin munition-, munitio, from munire to fortify, from moenia walls; akin to Latin murus wall and perhaps to Sanskrit minoti he builds, fastens
Date: 1508
1 archaic : RAMPART, DEFENSE
2 : ARMAMENT, AMMUNITION
- munition transitive verb

A messenger galloped back to Cicero with a dispatch from Caesar, written in Greek so the tribesmen couldn't understand it if it fell into the wrong hands.

I love that little detail.

But the courier couldn't get through the enemy.  So, pretending to be one of the attackers, he joined their next raid against the Roman camp, and threw a javelin with the message tied to it.  The javelin lodged in the woodwork of a Roman guard tower and went unnoticed for another two days before a sentry spotted the message, unfurled it, and took it to General Cicero.

Very cool story.


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## mmadsen (Jul 8, 2002)

*Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*

I couldn't make this up:

Caesar was always thinking, always innovative, and at the camp gates he had his men build walls made of a single brick's thickness of earth.  From the outside, it looked as if the gates were as solid as the walls, and the tribesmen didn't even bother to attack there, gates normally being the most heavily defended part of any Roman camp....The apparently solid walls at the gateways suddenly tumbled outward, and the Roman cavalry charged out into the massed ranks of the enemy.  The results were panic and slaughter.


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## SHARK (Jul 8, 2002)

Greetings!

Very interesting, mmadsen, very interesting! I love all of the little stories and details that are included in how everything is done! Great stuff!

Chapter VI: Revolt and Revenge

Chapter VI, page 54
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"With the town gates open, Caesar sent in the two legions on standby. Orleans was quickly taken and ruthlessly plundered."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Chapter VI, page 55
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Vercingetorix, who'd been against holding the town at first, sent ten thousand of his men to help the forty thousand people of Bourges defend their city."

"But ultimately, inevitably, the legions came over the walls one wet night. Just eight hundred people in the town managed to escape to Vercingetorix's camp in the darkness. Tens of thousands more were cut down in the narrow streets of the town."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

800 from 50,000! That's 49,200 people put to the sword! Wow!

Caesar is really gearing up for the trials to come!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Jul 8, 2002)

> That's 49,200 people put to the sword! Wow!
> 
> Caesar is really gearing up for the trials to come!




I'm trying to imagine 50,000 people stabbed to death, and -- quite fortunately -- I can't.  Ick.  And he's just getting warmed up!


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## Death's Toe (Jul 9, 2002)

> I'm trying to imagine 50,000 people stabbed to death, and -- quite fortunately -- I can't. Ick. And he's just getting warmed up!




It took the entire Eight Air Force to inflict that many casualties in one day during WW2.  Many were civilians, but the numbers are mind boggling.


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## mmadsen (Jul 9, 2002)

> It took the entire Eight Air Force to inflict that many casualties in one day during WW2.  Many were civilians, but the numbers are mind boggling.




Cutting down 50,000 city folk has to be more analogous to what would've happened if Hitler's troops had executed the population of Paris...as a warning to the rest of France and England.


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## mmadsen (Jul 9, 2002)

> Did he really need that many troops against the backward britons ?  50,000 ? Any real resistance was expected ?




If you _can_ mobilize 50,000 troops that easily, I think it makes sense to show up with all 50,000 troops, crush any resistance -- and any _hope_ of resistance -- and move on.  Go in with a clear objective, achieve it, and go home.


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## Maldur (Jul 10, 2002)

50.000 cut down, again scale. These romans dont do anything in small numbers. 

If it would happen today, their would be widespread public outcry, then it was just a glorious victory. Different times indeed.

I read ahead a bit and the legions vs legions battles are again quite brutal. Strange romans cutting down romans.

It gets to be more of a list towards the end, but there are some nice quotes  Im on vacation next week, so Ill prepare a more elaborate post after.

Cherrz, Maldur


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## Maldur (Jul 10, 2002)

50.000 cut down, again scale. These romans dont do anything in small numbers. 

If it would happen today, their would be widespread public outcry, then it was just a glorious victory. Different times indeed.

I read ahead a bit and the legions vs legions battles are again quite brutal. Strange romans cutting down romans.

It gets to be more of a list towards the end, but there are some nice quotes  Im on vacation next week, so Ill prepare a more elaborate post after.

Cheerz, Maldur


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## mmadsen (Jul 10, 2002)

*Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*

When the besieged legion paraded for their commander in chief, Caesar saw that nine out of ten legionaries were wounded.

I guess that says a lot for Roman armor and Roman medical care.  Nine out of ten injured, but not mortally wounded.

Caesar was not long in accepting the invitation to attack Bourges.  For three weeks his legions laid siege to the town in incessant winter rain, using their usual siege techniques.  Two legions remained on standby during the night and slept during the day, with the remaining legions working in daylight shifts at undermining the town walls and battering the gates, using the shelter of mantlets and siege towers.

Those mantlets and siege towers must provide excellent cover that soldiers can work for hours at a time attacking the walls without disastrous casualties.

The defenders weren't idle either.  There were a number of copper miners in the town, and they dug tunnels out under the town walls to undermine the siege works.

You dig tunnels under your own walls to attack the people attacking your walls?  That works?

But ultimately, inevitably, the legions came over the walls one wet night.

How exactly?  Did they topple a wall?  Build a ramp?  Rely on ladders and siege towers to rush the walls?


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## mmadsen (Jul 11, 2002)

> Very interesting, mmadsen, very interesting! I love all of the little stories and details that are included in how everything is done! Great stuff!




Great stuff indeed, SHARK!  It makes you wonder how schools and teachers reduce history to such a terribly boring subject.


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## mmadsen (Jul 11, 2002)

> I think it is interesting that reading through the passages, the Legionaires are all equipped to a much higher standard than you usually see in the Middle Ages.




Interestingly, Renaissance writers looked to the Classics (e.g. Vegetius) for military inspiration, and some suggested arming troops like Roman legionaries -- shield, helmet, breastplate, stabbing sword, etc.



> In the Middle Ages, remember, there is often just a small nucleus of armoured knights, supported by a mob of peasants armed with a spear, and wearing no armor, or leather at best.




That really isn't too terribly different from a nucleus of legionaries surrounded by auxiliaries with little armor, light shields, and slings and javelins.


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## mmadsen (Jul 11, 2002)

> Probably something like this (if I remember my Roman history properly):  "Whoa! Citizenship -and- land ownership? Sign me up!"




Did young men gain citizenship by joining the legions, or did they need to have citizenship already to qualify for the legions?


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## mmadsen (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Chapter IV -- Conquering Gaul*



> And quite a few barbarian tribes looked at Rome as decadant, at least in the Imperial period.




How very "Conan"...


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## Alaric_Prympax (Jul 12, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Did young men gain citizenship by joining the legions, or did they need to have citizenship already to qualify for the legions? *




IIRC in order to join a _legion_ you had to be a citizen and at the end of your 20 years (16 if in the Praetorian Guard) you received a land grant somewhere in the empire.  Furthermore the Primus Pilus (First Pilum: the highest ranking centurion or the segeant major of the legion) was granted status in the Equestrian class which allowed their children to get involved in higher political office.  Certain offices could only be held by Equestrians, the most prominate being the "Legatus of AEgyptus" which in Augustus' time was considered to be his personal property and thus the governor of Egypt did not have to be a member of the Senatorial Class (a former Consul- a Proconsul or Praetor- a Propraetor) but this is getting off topic.  I'm a little behind in my reading- sorry group.   I got a lot of d20 books over the past 3 weeks and I'm trying to read too may things at once while working on my own campaign and real life, but you'll know how that can get in the way of a good game.  


If a noncitizen join the _auxilairies_- at the end of their service of 25 years they received citizenship and a land grant (not sure about the land though).

It's been 10 years since I studied any of these details, I'm sorry if I got any of them wrong.


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## mmadsen (Jul 12, 2002)

*Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*

Meanwhile, Veringetorix's agents had brought the Aeduan tribe over to the Gallic cause with a combination of rhetoric, threats, and gold.

Diplomacy check with bonuses for credible threats and lots of gold. 

...a force of ten thousand Aeduans was assembled, armed, and marched down to the Auvergne Mountains.  Officially, they were coming to reinforce Caesar's legions, but in reality they intended to attack the Romans from the rear.

I can't imagine getting attacked by my own reinforcements.  Awful.  Just think how your players would feel if their allies arrived and started attacking them (with Flanking bonus)...

Caesar's famous luck held, because word of the double-cross plan reached him via loyal Aeduans.

Getting double-crossed probably isn't so bad if you have spies (or Divinations) that reveal the plan before you're stabbed in the back.

Caesar then took the 10th and three other legions and marched twenty-four miles in a day and confronted the Aeduans on the road to Gergovia.  At the sight of the legions appearing unexpectedly in front of them, the young Gallic soldiers promptly threw down their arms and surrendered.  Caesar not only spared them all, he added them to his force.

First, I'm so glad I don't have to forced-march 24 miles in a day.  That would be grueling -- especially when you realize they did it in heavy gear on one piece of bread for lunch.

Second, how very Sun Tzu: "Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."  And: "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

Of course, Sun Tzu also says: "If you march fifty _li_ [miles] in order to outmaneuver the enemy, you will lose the leader of your first division, and only half your force will reach the goal.  If you march thirty _li_ with the same object, two-thirds of your army will arrive."

Third -- and I could swear Sun Tzu had something to say on this, but I can't find it -- I'm always surprised by how easily a general can take in enemy forces and make them his own.  I wouldn't've expected that.

Giving his troops just three hours' rest, Caesar then turned around and headed back to Gergovia....Pounding on through the night, Caesar brought his four legions back to Gergovia a little before dawn, after marching forty-eight miles in a day and a night.

I can't imagine being in any condition to fight.  No sleep, and 48 miles of marching.  Ouch.


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## Rashak Mani (Jul 12, 2002)

Napoleon was another general who used quick marches in order to get the better of his foes... works wonders


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## Ysgarran (Jul 12, 2002)

*Caeser comes visiting.*

I'm not reading the current selection, I've been reading the "Roman People" byt Robert Kebric and came across something that seemed appropriate to the current thread.

Three months before his assassination Caeser visited Cicero (one the major families in Rome).  Cicero was a republican so he was NOT one of Caeser's greatest admirers.    What I found interesting is that Caeser came 'visiting' with two thousand of men.  Just imagine that, Caeser comes to the villa with two thousand of his veterans of the wars in Gaul and his battle with Pompey.   

Cicero was caught off guard by Caesers affable nature but I suppose Caeser could afford to be at ease with the number of men he had with him.    

Cicero says:
"There you are - a visit (by Caeser), or should I call it a billeting, which as I said was troublesome to me but not disagreeable..."

later,
Ysgarran.


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## sword-dancer (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The defenders weren't idle either.  There were a number of copper miners in the town, and they dug tunnels out under the town walls to undermine the siege works.
> 
> ...





Yes it works
Counterminig was a often used action, when the enemie had digged under your wallsthey would burn the pillars of wood and then the wall should crumble.
And this would be "easier" the try to ram or shoot down the gaulic walls.
Because they were not only filled with earth but reinforced inside with wood.
.







> I guess that says a lot for Roman armor and Roman medical care.  Nine out of ten injured, but not mortally wounded.



 Especially for the scutum and the closed combat a legionair had only 90 cm place about 30 cm free room between his comrade and himself



> That really isn't too terribly different from a nucleus of legionaries surrounded by auxiliaries with little armor, light shields, and slings and javelins.



That isn`t tue klight or unarmorde auxiliaries were skirmishers like balearic singers.
I remember a picture if an archer with scale armor.
The heavy inf auxiliaries were armed with a (brince mainly IIRc), great oval or round flat? shield, spear/lance the hasta, scale or mail armour and a short sword or maybe the spatha.



> In the Middle Ages, remember, there is often just a small nucleus of armoured knights, supported by a mob of peasants armed with a spear, and wearing no armor, or leather at best.



Not necessary not even usual
A Lance, the force a knight was have to stand considered of him, his squire maybe a page, the couitillon a heavey man at arms fighting at horse, a few "Archers", were archer could only meant not men-at-arms, so lighter armed and maybe fought on horse maybe on foot.
The problem with heavy inf was often IMHO
The Knights,  wanting the glory for themselves, 
not trained to meuver at a large force.

remember the anglosaxon stood at hastings against Williams the bastards, norman knights and archers long.
only when they broke their ranks to attack the normannic knights get them down.
I didn`t know if the anglosaxons wouldn`t like to shoot down by a hail of arrows, get uin rage over Harolds dead or were tricked from William(feigned retreat maybe) or any combination of above

Or Courtrai wwere the flamish Citizen militias won againstfrench knights.



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Did young men gain citizenship by joining the legions, or did they need to have citizenship already to qualify for the legions? *



Only a roman citizen culd be taken into an roman legion, IIRC i remember heard something about auxilliar legiones bur i wouldn`t coun t on it.

OTOH if necessary the romans would give the recruits citizenship when he was accepted as legionair(finished boot camp successfully maybe)

I hope this helps
-If it interrupts the thread tell me and i will delete it.


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## mmadsen (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Caeser comes visiting.*



> Three months before his assassination Caeser visited Cicero (one the major families in Rome).  Cicero was a republican so he was NOT one of Caeser's greatest admirers.    What I found interesting is that Caeser came 'visiting' with two thousand of men.  Just imagine that, Caeser comes to the villa with two thousand of his veterans of the wars in Gaul and his battle with Pompey.




There goes the entire fridge full of beer.  Seriously though, how intimidating would that be?  Caesar shows up with 2000 troops -- just to say "hi"?


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## mmadsen (Jul 15, 2002)

> IIRC in order to join a _legion_ you had to be a citizen and at the end of your 20 years (16 if in the Praetorian Guard) you received a land grant somewhere in the empire....If a noncitizen join the _auxilairies_- at the end of their service of 25 years they received citizenship and a land grant (not sure about the land though).



OK, that sounds reasonable.  By the way, the contractual term of service in the legions was 16 years in Caesar's time.  I believe Augustus increased it to 20 years.

One of the important issues for men retiring from the legions was where their land grant would be.  They didn't want recently captured lands they'd have to protect.


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## mmadsen (Jul 16, 2002)

*Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*

Caesar then initiated a complicated operation that he later claimed had only limited objectives.  He put helmets on his noncombatant mule drivers, then put the mule drivers on his thousands of pack animals and sent them, looking like cavalry, marching off with the 13th Legion as a feint attack on one flank.  The plan worked beautifully.

Doesn't that seem like a bad TV sitcom scheme?  Put helmets on mule drivers, and mule drivers on mules, and watch the zany hijinks ensue!  And yet it worked.


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## mmadsen (Jul 16, 2002)

*Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*

Caesar's ten legions dug entrenchments around Alesia with a circumference of ten miles and dotted with twenty-three forts.  As it became obvious that Vercingetorix was preparing to hold out for some time, Caesar built a second outer line of trenches, walls, and towers, extending for fourteen miles, to defend against attack from any relieving force from the outside.

I can't say much new here.  The scale of Caesar's military engineering continually amazes me.  Ten _miles_ of entrenchments surrounded by another fourteen _miles_ of entrenchments?

(That'll get those goblins!  )


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## SHARK (Jul 16, 2002)

Greetings!

Mmadsen wrote:
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued) 
Caesar's ten legions dug entrenchments around Alesia with a circumference of ten miles and dotted with twenty-three forts. As it became obvious that Vercingetorix was preparing to hold out for some time, Caesar built a second outer line of trenches, walls, and towers, extending for fourteen miles, to defend against attack from any relieving force from the outside.

I can't say much new here. The scale of Caesar's military engineering continually amazes me. Ten miles of entrenchments surrounded by another fourteen miles of entrenchments?

(That'll get those goblins!)"
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Hey there my friend! Indeed, when reading this, it is this kind of awe-inspiring might and determination that convinces me that a hill full of hundreds, or even thousands of Goblins, hell, even TENS OF THOUSANDS of Goblins wouldn't stand a chance in an area dominated by a human empire. A small, impoverished, Dark Ages petty feifdom?--sure. But with a strong, powerful human empire? In the time of Rome, as can be seen with hundreds of thousands--even MILLIONS of Celts, all ferocious, and highly intelligent humans--the Goblins, like the Celts, would have been either exterminated utterly, or ruthlessly conquered and broken to the yoke of slavery to the empire.

In the time of Rome, there was no other fate to be had, and Caesar and the endless march of the legions proved that fact.

Poor little Goblins...

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Jul 17, 2002)

> Poor little Goblins...



Poor little Goblins need a Dark Lord to forge a powerful Goblin empire!  And then the Goblins can live free! 

Or they can stick to stealing pigs and extorting cookies.

(OK, back on topic...)


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## mmadsen (Jul 17, 2002)

*Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*

Then, when 60,000 picked Gauls launched an attack from Mount Rea, Vercingetorix attempted a coordinated attack from the inside at the same time, sending men pouring out of Alesia against Caesar's inner entrenchments.

With Caesar's troops strung out at the forts around the siege works, this two-way attack should have succeeded, but it didn't....Caesar accepted Labienus's advice, and he himself led the subsequent counterattack.  By his own account, his troops and those of the other side were able to identify him by his flowing _paludamentum_, the scarlet general's cloak, in the forefront of the charge.

Have I mentioned that I need my own _paludamentum_?

Tens of thousands of prisoners were taken by the Romans -- possibly as many as seventy thousand -- enough, Caesar claimed, for him to give every single legionary in his force one prisoner each as a slave.

Again, the scale!  Can you imagine 70,000 men captured and enslaved?


----------



## mmadsen (Jul 17, 2002)

*Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*

Vercingetorix's surrender is sad:

First putting on his richest armor and adorning his favorite horse with golden trappings, the commander of the Gauls rode out the gate of Alesia alone and came down to Caesar's camp...

Without a word, Vercingetorix removed his sword belt and handed it to Caesar.  Caesar accepted the sword, then passed it to one of his staff.  Vercingetorix removed his helmet, with its distinctive Gallic crest, and passed it over.  Then his armor, richly decorated with gold and silver -- attendants helped him out of it, and then this, too, he presented to Caesar, who in turn passed it to subordinates.

I felt bad enough for him, reading about his surrender.  Then this:

Kept a prisoner for six years, Vercingetorix would be exhibited at Caesar's Triumph at Rome in 46 BC, lashed, and then executed in the time-honored manner, garroted behind prison walls in the northwestern corner of the Forum, as the culmination of the triumphal parade through the city's streets.


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## mmadsen (Jul 18, 2002)

*Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*

Commius then created a wall of flames in front of his camp one night, and screened by this, his troops hastily withdrew to a new position ten miles away.

Commius cast a 4th-level Wizard spell? 

"Eagles don't catch flies."
"Don't make your physician your heir, and you're sure to live to a ripe old age."

I love those Roman sayings.


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## optimizer (Jul 18, 2002)

*Re: Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*

Howdy!



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Commius then created a wall of flames in front of his camp one night, and screened by this, his troops hastily withdrew to a new position ten miles away.
> 
> Commius cast a 4th-level Wizard spell?
> *




Good one!!  

Mike


----------



## mmadsen (Jul 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)*



> I hope this helps-If it interrupts the thread tell me and i will delete it.



Sword-dancer, your post is quite welcome -- but it's a bit hard to understand.  Could you edit it a bit for typos and spelling?


----------



## mmadsen (Jul 19, 2002)

*Chapter VII -- Enemy of the State*

So the Senate schemes up a way to transfer one of Caesar's legions to Pompey's command.  Caesar's response?

Caesar said he would give up his army if Pompey gave up his.  If not, Caesar would advance on Italy and, in his own words, "Bring succor to my homeland and myself."

Because _clearly_ a _coup d'etat_ would bring succor to Rome...

[The Senate] appointed [Pompey] military commander in chief, voting him the powers necessary to mobilize an army of 130,000 men.  And it declared Julius Caesar an enemy of the state.

It's hard to believe Caesar wins this one, isn't it?


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## mmadsen (Jul 19, 2002)

*Chapter VII -- Enemy of the State*

Julius Caesar stood beside the stream in the darkness, looking pensively into the rippling waters as the first rays of the new dawn pierced the eastern sky.  This was the Rubicon River, an otherwise insignificant waterway in eastern Italy that marked the boundary between the province of Cisalpine Gaul and Italy.

He's not going to _cross the Rubicon_ is he?  (Of course, "cross the Rubicon" now means "to take an irrevocable step"...)

The day before, January 10, Caesar had secretly sent a commando force across the Rubicon....Made up of tribunes, centurions, and picked men of the 13th Legion, the small force had entered Italy with farmers' cloaks disguising their military uniforms and hiding the swords on their hips...

"Picked men" is code for "PCs".


----------



## optimizer (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: Chapter VII -- Enemy of the State*

Howdy!



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> The day before, January 10, Caesar had secretly sent a commando force across the Rubicon....Made up of tribunes, centurions, and picked men of the 13th Legion, the small force had entered Italy with farmers' cloaks disguising their military uniforms and hiding the swords on their hips...
> 
> "Picked men" is code for "PCs". *





A good way to look at this.  Sounds like a good adventure hook.   

Thanks for pointing this one out.

Mike


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## mmadsen (Jul 20, 2002)

*Chapter VII -- Enemy of the State*

Despite his promises to the 10th years before that he would make the legion his bodyguard, Caesar had instead come to use big, bearded, physically daunting, and highly mobile Trever and Batavian cavalrymen from the Rhine in that role.  They were mercenaries in every sense of the word.  While Caesar paid them well, they remained faithful -- not to his army, not to Rome, but to Caesar personally -- and they would serve him loyally thoughout his career.

I love the imagery of the big, bearded, barbarian cavalrymen -- and it still amuses me that these "giants" were, maybe, 5'8".  One slice of bread for lunch doesn't build big legionaries...


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## mmadsen (Jul 20, 2002)

*Chapter VII -- Enemy of the State*

In full armor, helmet, and scarlet general's cloak now -- there was no longer any need to disguise himself -- Caesar walked to where Colonel Pollio waited with a horse for his commander.  The first of Caesar's reinforcements...were only several days march away....Any other general would have waited for them to arrive so that he entered Italy with at least three legions.  But not Caesar.

As the author suggests, Julius Caesar lives by the same motto as Patton: Audacity, audacity, always audacity.  He's willing to invade Italy with just one legion -- even though Rome knows he's coming.

Everyone expects him to wait at the Rubicon for his three legions to gather.  He waltzes in early -- and Pompey doesn't really have ten legions ready; he has his elite 1st, the 15th, a legion that used to serve under Caesar, and muster rolls to fill another eight [legions] with draftees and veterans eligible for recall from retirement.


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## mmadsen (Jul 22, 2002)

*Chapter VII -- Enemy of the State*

With Caesar and Colonel Pollio leading the way and Caesar's personal standard flying proudly from the horse coming along behind him, the German cavalry clattered over the bridge spanning the Rubicon and entered Italy.  With this act, Julius Caesar violated the Cornelia Majestatis Law, which made it illegal for a general to lead troops out of the province to which he had been assigned by the Roman Senate.  In doing so he was considered to have committed an act of war against the Senate and the people of Rome.  There was no turning back from here.

Now _that_'s crossing the Rubicon.  As always, standards _rock_ -- and I love the term "Cornelia Majestatis".


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## mmadsen (Jul 22, 2002)

*Lurkers?*

Out of curiosity, are people who _aren't_ reading the book reading (and enjoying) this thread?  And how many people _are_ reading along in our little reading group?

(Oh, and, thanks, Mike/optimizer, for the kind words and subtle "bumps".)


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## Leopold (Jul 22, 2002)

i am reading the book..i had to read tomas harris' red dragon first as i want to see the movie when it comes out and couldn't resist..now it's back to caeser and his destruction of the britons!


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## optimizer (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: Lurkers?*

Howdy!



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Out of curiosity, are people who aren't reading the book reading (and enjoying) this thread?  And how many people are reading along in our little reading group?
> 
> (Oh, and, thanks, Mike/optimizer, for the kind words and subtle "bumps".) *




You are very welcome!  I am enjoying this thread immensely.  I ran out to my local Borders to buy this book right after the thread started.  I have found it to be a well-written book.  My fiancee thumbed through it, and now wants to read it after I finish with it. 

I do have one small negative comment on the book -- there is a lack of maps on the individual battles.  I would like to see some more tactical maps of the battles being described -- they have helped me with other military history books.  Does any one know of any works with some good maps of Caesar's battles?

Thanks for a great thread!

Mike


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## mmadsen (Jul 22, 2002)

General Domitius decides to hold out in Corfinium and sends word to Pompey to relieve him.  Pompey says he never told him to hold out there.  Caesar's probably expecting more legions, so Pompey tells him to get out; he's not coming to his aid.  But it's too late.

General Domitius lied to his men; he told them that Pompey was on the way with a relief force, and urged them to defend the town with all their might.  At the same time, he made secret preparations to escape.  But not secret enough -- word leaked out about the general's planned desertions of his troops.  he was nabbed by his own soldiers, in civilian dress, trying to effect his escape.

I can't believe they let him live.  They handed him over to Caesar in chains.  He gave his word to stay out of the war, and Caesar set him free.


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## mmadsen (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: Re: Lurkers?*



> I am enjoying this thread immensely.  I ran out to my local Borders to buy this book right after the thread started.  I have found it to be a well-written book....Thanks for a great thread!



You're very welcome!  (Thanks to to SHARK too, of course!)


> My fiancee thumbed through it, and now wants to read it after I finish with it.



Excellent!


> I do have one small negative comment on the book -- there is a lack of maps on the individual battles.  I would like to see some more tactical maps of the battles being described -- they have helped me with other military history books.  Does any one know of any works with some good maps of Caesar's battles?



John Warry's _Warfare in the Classical World_ covers far more than Caesar's battles, so it doesn't go into great depth, but it does have a few nice maps and some excellent diagrams of siege works.


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## optimizer (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Lurkers?*

Howdy!



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> John Warry's Warfare in the Classical World covers far more than Caesar's battles, so it doesn't go into great depth, but it does have a few nice maps and some excellent diagrams of siege works. *




Thanks -- this may be just what I need! 

Mike


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## SHARK (Jul 22, 2002)

Greetings!

I have previously developed a system of powerful, magical banners for armies on the battlefield. Between Caesar's Legion and the ELH, I must revise some of my earlier designs! Quite obviously, throughout Caesar's Legion, Standards and Banners are used for communication, inculcating unit pride, but also possessing powerful psychological power on the battlefield.

More than a few times hardened veterans have thrown themselves into the fire for the preservation, or prestige, of a unit standard!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## dagger (Jul 23, 2002)

Im a Lurker who doesnt have the book yet . But Im enjoying the thread...


I plan on picking the book up eventually though.


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## Sulimo (Jul 23, 2002)

dagger said:
			
		

> *Im a Lurker who doesnt have the book yet . But Im enjoying the thread...
> 
> 
> I plan on picking the book up eventually though. *




Yeah, I'm in a similar position. Although I dont know if I will pick the book up - mainly due to monetary considerations. I'm not really sure I'll have time either, at least not in the short term as I have a fair amount of reading to be done in research for my paper on Tiberius for uni...


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## mmadsen (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Lurkers?*



> John Warry's _Warfare in the Classical World_ covers far more than Caesar's battles, so it doesn't go into great depth, but it does have a few nice maps and some excellent diagrams of siege works.



As long as I've brought up one outside text, I thought I'd mention a couple more.  When I first went to order _Caesar's Legion_, I ordered _Caesar's Legions_ (note the "s") by Sekunda instead.  It was another book SHARK had recommended.  Frankly, it has some nice color plates, lots of black and white photographs of Roman artifacts, and some good line-art diagrams, but the text is dry, dry, dry and dwells on minutia.  I thought it might have some maps, but it doesn't.

_Greece and Rome at War_ is simply beautiful -- full of wonderful color art of arms, armor, and siege works, diagrams of formations, etc.  The author, Peter Connolly, is known for recreating ancient arms and armor.  It only has a few maps; it's not too useful in that department.


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## Sulimo (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Lurkers?*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Greece and Rome at War is simply beautiful -- full of wonderful color art of arms, armor, and siege works, diagrams of formations, etc.  The author, Peter Connolly, is known for recreating ancient arms and armor.  It only has a few maps; it's not too useful in that department. *




Yep. Peter Connolly is a legend. I love that guy. Actually it sounds like an excellent book. How much is it worth?


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## mmadsen (Jul 23, 2002)

*Peter Connolly's Greece and Rome at War*



> Yep. Peter Connolly is a legend. I love that guy. Actually it sounds like an excellent book. How much is it worth?



The cover price is US$50, but you can get it off Amazon for $US35.  As I said before, it's a beautiful book, but I haven't sat down to read it yet.


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## optimizer (Jul 23, 2002)

Howdy!



			
				SHARK said:
			
		

> *I have previously developed a system of powerful, magical banners for armies on the battlefield. Between Caesar's Legion and the ELH, I must revise some of my earlier designs! Quite obviously, throughout Caesar's Legion, Standards and Banners are used for communication, inculcating unit pride, but also possessing powerful psychological power on the battlefield.
> *




Have you written up any details about these banners in your campaign?  If so, are you willing to post it -- I am interested in what you came up with.

Thanks!

Mike


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## optimizer (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Lurkers?*

Howdy!



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> As long as I've brought up one outside text, I thought I'd mention a couple more.  When I first went to order Caesar's Legion, I ordered Caesar's Legions (note the "s") by Sekunda instead.  It was another book SHARK had recommended.  Frankly, it has some nice color plates, lots of black and white photographs of Roman artifacts, and some good line-art diagrams, but the text is dry, dry, dry and dwells on minutia.  I thought it might have some maps, but it doesn't.
> 
> Greece and Rome at War is simply beautiful -- full of wonderful color art of arms, armor, and siege works, diagrams of formations, etc.  The author, Peter Connolly, is known for recreating ancient arms and armor.  It only has a few maps; it's not too useful in that department. *




Thanks for the additional references! 

Mike


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## mmadsen (Jul 23, 2002)

*Chapter VII -- Enemy of the State*

Caesar spent seven days engaged in the siege of Corfinium, and by the time it was over he was surprised that General Labienus still hadn't arrived from Gaul with the bulk of his cavalry.  Now he was staggered by the news that labienus had decided that Caesar had overreached himself in going against the Senate, and, while he had brought the Gallic and German cavalry down from the Rhine as ordered, he had offered the services of his troopers and himself to Pompey.

Ouch!  Imagine waiting for you reinforcements only to find them joining the other team!

This does seem like exactly the kind of thing that should happen to many D&D PC parties though.  Like Caesar, they're often so single-minded and self-centered that they don't realize they're not in the right, and that other people might carry grievances.

I found this point particularly telling:

Typically, Caesar's ego would let him make no mention in his memoirs of how his once firm friend and loyal lieutenant Labienus had defected to Pompey.  We simply find Labienus on the other side once battle was joined.


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## mmadsen (Jul 23, 2002)

As news of the debacle at Corfinium reached [Pompey], his officers informed him that all attempts to raise fresh troops north of Capua were proving fruitless, as much because of Caesar's reputation as his rapid advance, a reputation, according to Plutarch, that credited Caesar with killing a million people during his nine-year conquest of Gaul and of taking another million prisoners and selling them into slavery.

Killing a _million_ people and taking another _million_ prisoner and selling them into slavery?  I know we're getting a bit jaded with the huge numbers getting tossed around, but a _million_ people?!  I can see why people weren't signing up to go against _that_ guy!


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## SHARK (Jul 23, 2002)

Greetings!

Indeed, mmadsen! As one of my ancient history professors always said, "Remember, Caesar was *never* defeated. Caesar never loses."

Caesar was a brilliant genius, as skilled in politics as he was in war. I also understand that he was a lavish spender, and he was said to be very, very handsome, and it was widely said that Caesar could have any woman in Rome, such were the women's passion for him.

Gee, Caesar had infinite wealth, infinite power, infinite glory, infinite women! He just didn't stop! Even when he makes mistakes, he manages to recover somehow, and come out on top, winning! Caersar is quite amazing!

The slaughter of a million people served as a good reminder to everyone that Rome, and Caesar, meant business. Over a million slaves no doubt also added incredible wealth to himself, as well as his Legions. After all, selling over a million people into slavery throughout the empire is going to rake in a lot of money! My god, can you imagine the wealth?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Jul 24, 2002)

> As one of my ancient history professors always said, "Remember, Caesar was *never* defeated. Caesar never loses."...Even when he makes mistakes, he manages to recover somehow, and come out on top, winning! Caersar is quite amazing!



I'm more inclined to say that Caesar only lost once.  The odds were stacked way against him, but he did lose.  Big.  

In D&D, he might've taken on a couple dozen guys with daggers and shortswords...


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## Maldur (Jul 24, 2002)

He might have been a genius but for some reason, after this book he seems to be a arrogant, pompous hole!

( At least to me)


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## SHARK (Jul 24, 2002)

Greetings!

Eh! Indeed, mmadsen, indeed! *That* episode was his only defeat. My professor was speaking of battles though. I find it kinda sad that Caesar endured the fire and terror of war, survived for years through so many battles,--many of which Caesar was outnumbered, and a lesser, but still fine general would have most likely have lost--he is then murdered on the steps of the Forum by a group of his friends. That is quite sad, especially so for someone so brilliant and gifted as Caesar.

Caesar should have never gone in there without a platoon of elite Legionnaires to guard him! Those petty, treacherous Senators would have been slaughtered in a flash had Caesar been protected properly, heh?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## dagger (Jul 24, 2002)

At least he will be immortal when it comes to history. I wish I could say that about myself....


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## Maldur (Jul 24, 2002)

Sorry for the judgemental post, but from reading I get the feeling Ceasar is only out to improve is own person. If that goal is simular to the welbeing of the men around him, he takes care of them otherwise he doesn't pay attention to them.

He WAS killed by his friends!


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## mmadsen (Jul 24, 2002)

[Pompey] would abandon Italy, withdrawing to Greece using his strong naval superiority, and there he would regroup and rebuild his army with the half dozen Roman legions stationed in the East and the support of the many eastern potentates who were in his debt.

This really surprised me.  It never occurred to me that Pompey would just leave -- and that Caesar would take Italy within 70 days.

In fact, the most famous men of the day, including the great writers and orators Cicero, Cato the Younger, and Varro, all supported Pompey.

This doesn't surprise me at all.  In fact, I still don't understand what Caesar's rationale was.  I can see that he thought he could sieze power -- and he wasn't wrong about that -- but I can't see how he thought that would be "right".


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## Darklance (Jul 24, 2002)

SHARK said:
			
		

> *Greetings!
> 
> 
> Caesar was a brilliant genius, as skilled in politics as he was in war. I also understand that he was a lavish spender, and he was said to be very, very handsome, and it was widely said that Caesar could have any woman in Rome, such were the women's passion for him.
> ...




Wow. Sounds like a better version of Alcibiades.


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## mmadsen (Jul 24, 2002)

I earlier mentioned Peter Connolly's _Greece and Rome at War_.  I just now realized that the back-cover illustration is of Caesar's 10th Legion jumping into the water off the British shore.  It's all that damned standard-bearer's fault...


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## mmadsen (Jul 24, 2002)

> Caesar should have never gone in there without a platoon of elite Legionnaires to guard him!



We're skipping ahead a bit -- to Chapter XVI: Caesar's Last Battle -- but here goes:

According to Appian, when friends urged Caesar to "have the Spanish cohorts as his bodyguard again"...Caesar declined, saying there was no worse fate than to be continuously protected, for that meant a person was constantly in fear, a sentiment expressed by many a leader down through the ages.

Living your life surrounded by bodyguards must be much worse than it sounds, because  it seems crazy to go without them.


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## mmadsen (Jul 25, 2002)

*Warfare in the Classical World by John Warry*

I recently mentioned _Warfare in the Classical World_ by John Warry.  Well, I was in Barnes & Noble the other day, and they have a hardback version in their bargain books section.  Get it.

If you want to buy it on-line, it's just $9.08 (!) at bn.com.  That's less than I paid for the paperback.


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## SHARK (Jul 25, 2002)

Greetings!

Damn! $9.08! How can they make it so cheap? I think I paid thirty bucks for the softcover alone! The book is mine! MINE! I'm gonna buy it this Friday for sure! Great scoop mmadsen! I love it!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Darklance (Jul 25, 2002)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...7575633/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-7283552-5806331

That one different?


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## mmadsen (Jul 25, 2002)

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1840650044/
> 
> That one different?



That link points to an edition I've never seen before -- different cover from the paperback I own and the hardback I saw in the store, and British spelling of the subtitle (War and the Ancient Civilisations of Greece and Rome).

A quick look at the reviews on Amazon reveals: "This book has exactly the same text as the Illustrated Encyclopedia of ancient warfare by the same author, but there are no illustrations. If you can spare a few more bucks, by the illustrated version: it has a wealth of battle maps, color plates and other illustrated material which makes this text-only version pale in comparison, although it is still quite informative."

Frankly, I found the wonderful illustrations, maps, and other graphics -- and their captions -- far more informative than the text.  Get the illustrated version.


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## Rashak Mani (Jul 25, 2002)

This Classical Warfare seems nice... should I be in the B&N site and not over here ?   How strongly do you recommend it ?  Dollar is so high these days...     Cheap price thou.... 

    Anyother books I should take a look at ?


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## mmadsen (Jul 25, 2002)

> Any other books I should take a look at?



Again, I highly recommend _Warfare in the Classical World_ by John Warry -- especially at US$9 -- and _Greece and Rome at War_ by Peter Connolly -- even at US$35.  Once you've read those, I suppose you can go straight to Caesar and other ancient authors.


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## mmadsen (Jul 25, 2002)

*Chapter VIII -- Broken Promises*

Between mid-January and mid-March, recruiting officers were busy for Caesar in Italy.  Males of military age were drafted in the thousands into thirteen hastily created new legions.  Another two legions would be created the following winter for service in the Balkans.  These fifteen new legions were named the 21st through the 35th.

Fifteen new legions?  That's almost 100,000 men!  (OK, 15 x 6,000 = 90,000.)  They're all green and unseasoned, but, man, those Romans know how to run a recruiting drive!


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## Rashak Mani (Jul 25, 2002)

What about other periods of military history... ? What would the best recomendations be ?  Cost benefit in mind of course.  I have read many general books... but havent gone into much detailed reading yet.


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## SHARK (Jul 25, 2002)

Greetings!

"Chapter VIII -- Broken Promises 
Between mid-January and mid-March, recruiting officers were busy for Caesar in Italy. Males of military age were drafted in the thousands into thirteen hastily created new legions. Another two legions would be created the following winter for service in the Balkans. These fifteen new legions were named the 21st through the 35th."

I just love this! Can you imagine all of the troops? And here it is, too,--it didn't exhaust their population, either. They raised these new armies *EASILY* That is why I have always been amazed at the Romans. They conquered, and they won--because they had a professional war-machine that was organized into a system. Their enemies never did really adopt anything like it, and it is in large part why the Romans were so successful for century after century.

100,000 troops *snap!* like that! Fifteen new legions! Damn, can Caesar wage war, or what?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Rashak Mani (Jul 25, 2002)

Did he set up these new legions around a cadre of some sort ?  What about equipment and outfitting of these new units... somehow it involves a lot more than just getting some unemployed poor guys to march off into war.  

    Certainly a war industry was constantly churning out stuff for the Roman Govt.


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## mmadsen (Jul 25, 2002)

> What about other periods of military history... ? What would the best recomendations be ?  Cost benefit in mind of course.  I have read many general books... but havent gone into much detailed reading yet.



SHARK posted an extensive list over on the Mass Combat: Military Tactics Old and New thread.


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## mmadsen (Jul 26, 2002)

> What about equipment and outfitting of these new units... somehow it involves a lot more than just getting some unemployed poor guys to march off into war.  Certainly a war industry was constantly churning out stuff for the Roman Govt.



That is an interesting point, Rashak Mani.  It's one thing to find 100,000 young men looking for adventure; it's another to arm them all.  That's a lot of _lorica hamata_...


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## mmadsen (Jul 26, 2002)

> Sorry for the judgemental post, but from reading I get the feeling Ceasar is only out to improve is own person.



Unlike the rest of us...


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## SHARK (Jul 26, 2002)

Greetings!

Indeed. It also makes clear that even when Caesar was late in payment, the "Pay was good." It seems apparent that the officers, and even the average Legionnaire, became quite wealthy from serving with Caesar--if he survived.

I'm not quite sure what makes Caesar so "bad"--to my mind, he was a visionary, a brilliant general and politician, and a great hero of Rome,who wanted to make Rome strong, and better able to make its way in a hostile world.

The fact that he enslaved an entire culture--slaughtering over a million people and enslaving more than another million--isn't really any different than what any other Roman general would have done, had he been in Caesar's place. Next, the Gauls had the tools to win, and keep their independence. But they effed it up because they couldn't get their act together and be united. 

That is a fatal cultural mistake--and every culture without exception that has been unable to maintain a ferocious political and military unity has been left for the crows. Look at the the Gauls, the Celts of Britain, the Scots, the Irish, the Indian tribes of North America; the Indian tribes of South America; the tribes and kingdoms of Africa; Various tribes and kingdoms and governments of Asia.

Over and over again, throughout four thousand years of history, those peoples who can't unite, and are too busy squabbling amongst themselves get crushed. That is the lesson of history over and over again, and many different peoples and cultures seem to have been unable or too late in grasping that salient concept.

Legionnaires could make some real money, after all, they had plunder rights if the city resisted! That can be a whole lot of wealth! Imagine what some of them had from after 20 years of campaigning? Imagine that some of them could have set themselves up quite well, and lived the rest of their lives in comfort and priviledge. There is a reason, after all, that the men really did love Caesar.

With but a single word, he had them clamoring to fight to the death for him...

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Jul 26, 2002)

> I'm not quite sure what makes Caesar so "bad"--to my mind, he was a visionary, a brilliant general and politician, and a great hero of Rome,who wanted to make Rome strong, and better able to make its way in a hostile world.



By those criteria, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Mussolini were equally Great.  (OK, Hitler and Mussolini blew it.)  I'm willing to say they were "bad".


> The fact that he enslaved an entire culture--slaughtering over a million people and enslaving more than another million--isn't really any different than what any other Roman general would have done, had he been in Caesar's place.



I don't think any other Roman general would be considered "good" either (by modern criteria).  What complicates the issue, of course, is that historical leaders aren't living in modern times.  An idealized leader would unify tribes without war, would bring justice, would increase trade and culture, etc.  In a violent world though, a great general brings about justice, trade, and culture the hard way.  He kills and enslaves millions, until there's a _Pax Romana_.

I still have to wonder what a less agressive Rome might've done.  Could Roman ways spread without Roman legions leading the way?  Probably not, because the peace necessary for roads and travel (and thus cultural and economic exchange) only came about once everything was under Roman rule.


> That is a fatal cultural mistake--and every culture without exception that has been unable to maintain a ferocious political and military unity has been left for the crows.



Agreed.  _Someone_ is always going to come along and take what's yours.  Fighting isn't a unilateral decision.  You may not have to start wars and spread your empire, but that doesn't mean everyone else is going to play nice.


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## SHARK (Jul 26, 2002)

Greetings!

I agree mmadsen. I think though that Caesar, as opposed to Hitler, Stalin, et. al. didn't have any particular racist, tyrannical, or ideological axes to grind, in particular. Unlike Hitler and so on. If Caesar didn't do what he did, either some other Roman would have stepped up and done it, thus securing Rome, or Rome's enemies would have devoured them--like the Sammnites, the Greeks, the Carthaginians,--as well as the Celts, and so on.

One must remember that the Celts actually conquered and plundered Rome, in about 360 B.C. if I recall. The Roman leader begged the Celtic Chieftain that Rome could spare no more treasure, and the Celtic Chief sternly gazed at him, and cast his great sword roughly across the scales, and declared "Woe to the Conquered!"--meaning, either pay up the million pounds of gold demanded, or die.

The Romans paid the price.

The Romans never forgot that lesson, and they burned for vengeance. When the time came, --unlike the Celts who chose not to stay and conquer--a fatal mistake on their part--the Romans, led by Caesar, they kicked ass and took names--and they came to stay. Permanently.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Jul 26, 2002)

> I think though that Caesar, as opposed to Hitler, Stalin, et. al. didn't have any particular racist, tyrannical, or ideological axes to grind, in particular.



Well, it's hard to argue that the Romans weren't fascists, given the origin of fascism (the Roman _fasces_).  But it is almost refreshing to see Caesar seize power because...he wants it.  No pretenses.

(Anyway, we should probably cut this off before it gets too political.  I already made the mistake of saying "Hitler"...)


----------



## Rashak Mani (Jul 27, 2002)

Come on guys... Cesar was just consolidating the natural security area around Rome... 1000 miles or more... but still just making those borders safe.

   Slaves ?  Of course... those poor barbarians need to be made economically useful... otherwise they would just die elsewhere... 

   War ?  Good for the economy... they still do it today... they did it back then.

   Politics... well thats hard to argue for ... 

   Overall I agree with Shark... hard to keep cultural bias... Napoleon is a good example of how time changes views.  In his time and age outside france he was portrayed as a monster. Nowdays most admire and study him as one of the greatest generals.


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## mmadsen (Jul 28, 2002)

> War ?  Good for the economy...



If you're winning wars and bringing back the spoils (slaves and goods), sure, it's good for _your_ economy...


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## mmadsen (Jul 28, 2002)

Sitting on a hill, the town [Ilerda] was on the right bank of the Segre, not far from where it joined the Ebro River.  Moving his forces into the area, Afranius occupied the walled town and also built a fortified camp nearby....Caesar crossed two bridges over the Segre just completed by General Fabius and marched the army to confront the Pompeian forces outside Lerida [Ilerda], where over the next seventy-two hours his legions built a fortified camp.

Afranius just left bridges there for Caesar to use?  I can't imagine Caesar leaving bridges around for his enemies to use.

He then led three of his legions on a surprise mission to sieze a small hill that lay between the town and General Afranius's camp, with the objective of dividing the Pompeian forces.

What's the difference between dividing your enemy's forces and volunteering to get ouflanked and surrounded?

Realizing what Caesar was up to, General Afranius quickly dispatched his on-duty guard cohorts, which occupied the hillock before Caesar's troops could reach it....Caesar's advance guard was beaten back...

The 14th, on one of Caesar's wings, takes casualties and gives up ground.  This causes the youngsters in the 9th to panic as well.  Caesar personally leads the 9th, and chases Afranius's troops down the hill -- where they circle around and outflank the 9th!  Eventually the cavalry come to the rescue.

It sure seems like Caesar's getting his nose a bit bloodied!


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## Sulimo (Jul 29, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *I still have to wonder what a less agressive Rome might've done.  Could Roman ways spread without Roman legions leading the way?  Probably not, because the peace necessary for roads and travel (and thus cultural and economic exchange) only came about once everything was under Roman rule.
> 
> Agreed.  Someone is always going to come along and take what's yours.  Fighting isn't a unilateral decision.  You may not have to start wars and spread your empire, but that doesn't mean everyone else is going to play nice. *




I dont think its possible, the whole culture of the Romans was one of violence. Just look at the way the political system is structured too.

Even ignoring this I think a less agressive Rome would not have survived its early days. 

I actually wonder more about what would have happened if Rome was able to repell the barbarian hordes. What would've happened if the western empire was a power for a much longer period of time.


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## willpax (Jul 29, 2002)

Most of the time, it wasn't about repelling the barbarians, but accomodating them. The reason the east didn't fall is that it had a higher population density, so there was nowhere to take up farming. In the west (which was never as developed), there was room in Gaul. 

As the empire descends from its peak (3rd - 4th centuries) the burden of defending so much border begins to grow too great (not enough citizens willing to join the army, taxes becoming burdensome with not much to show for it--the same old story). Then the Western Emperors actually contract out some defensive work to the federates--German tribes that have entered the Empire peacefully, trading land for a promise to fight on the side of the Romans in battle. So the Romans had actually become quite used to armed Germans in the neighborhood well before the Western Empire fell. 

Many historians see the fall of Rome as lying in problems in its own administration (growing lack thereof) and economy (slave based, leading to no incentive to invest or even produce)--the barbarians simply took advantage of a growing weakness. 

That's at least one version of it. I'm sure there are others.


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## Maldur (Jul 29, 2002)

Mmadsen:


> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry for the judgemental post, but from reading I get the feeling Ceasar is only out to improve is own person.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Unlike the rest of us...



What I meant was the feeling I get,  that in the later parts of the book. Ceasar seems to be using 'the tenth' as a tool ( to be used when needed and thrown away when not used). While at the start of the book, he seemed more like a part of the legion.

Shark: 
Im not disputing Ceasar wasn't EXTREMELY good at his job! I can only be in awe of the speed, scale and efficientcy of the armies under his command. The Roman legions are spectacular. Im not questioning his skill but his mindset.

Besides: he was killed by his close personal friends. And you dont get stabbed to death if your a generally nice guy! So if your partners do such a thing, you have crossed a line somewhere.


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## SHARK (Jul 29, 2002)

Greetings!

Ah! I understand Maldur! Good to see you! I hope you have been well!

The differences in the way the Romans organized and supported their armies amazes me. The enemies simply were never in the same realm that the Romans were. The Romans had taken the concept of raising professional armies to a breakthrough level--a different, higher paradigm of thinking, if you will, than Rome's enemies. Time and time again, the Romans who physically were often certainly not "supermen" slaughter the enemy, even when the enemy has the Romans outnumbered, or enjoys some other advantage. Throughout the book, the whole range of little details that went into making up the Roman war machine shows why they were so superior to all of their enemies for over a thousand years! I love this book!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Maldur (Jul 29, 2002)

Actually those legions are scary!! 

I really love those strange annacdotes: like the message on the javelin stuck in a tower for a day before the message is found. That stuff is great.

Shark: Yeah, I have been fine. I have been busy, I need to finish a 30 people freeform before the end of august, and do the writeup of last time ( luckily only headlines).

When is your first book coming? And what's it about?


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## Maldur (Jul 29, 2002)

It might not be entirely on the topic at hand but: It has to do with legions and it is inspired by the book 


Here some thoughts about the equipment issued to SHARK’s Valledarion Legions.

Thought 1: 
As the equipment of the legions is very usefull and expensive, battlefield looting in SHARK’s world is very lucrative. I would think that enemies of the empire will use quite a lot of the captured equipment.

Thought 2: 
In Runequest magical items can have USER CONDITIONS, a trait that would make the item more expensive ( as it would be harder to make) but it could only be used by certain people.

Thought 3:
Banners are important for large army units

Combined these would give: Legionair equipment ( magic items) would get the user condition: only usable by people who sworn their loyalty on the legions banner. 

Problem: This would make the equipment more expensive, and the same items without the user conditions would be cheaper while they are more usefull ( so having a higher market price).

New idea:

What if magical item only work in the proximity of another item (like a banner).

So magical items of the legions work in the line of battle, and in camp (near the banner) but would not work when looted from a battlefield (except when a banner would be captured along with it). It would make a item cheaper as it is not self powered, and it would make the banners of a legion very important!!

Just a thought


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## mmadsen (Jul 29, 2002)

> It might not be entirely on the topic at hand but: It has to do with legions and it is inspired by the book
> 
> Here some thoughts about the equipment issued to SHARK’s Valledarion Legions.



We're discussing SHARK's Vallorean legions (and their enemies) over in the How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress? thread.


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## mmadsen (Jul 29, 2002)

*Chapter VIII -- Broken Promises*

Last we saw, Caesar was getting his nose bloodied by Afranius, fighting over a small hill outside Ilerda (now Lerida).

Afranius claimed the day's fight as a victory for his side, and messengers hurried away to italy with the news that Caesar had been bettered....Two days later, a storm brought the heaviest rainfall in memory to the region, washing away the two bridges behind CAesar, over which he was supplied.  Afranius then led a raid in Caesar's rear, inflicting more than two hundred casualties on a column bringing up supplies and reinforcements.

Ouch!  It just gets worse.

After failing to repair the bridges because opposition troops occupied the opposite bank, Caesar had his men build light, flat-bottomed boats, of a kind he'd seen in Britain, and was able to spirit troops across the water in the night and drive Afranius's men away from the bridge site.  Once he was in occupation of both banks he was able to bridge the river and once more link up with his supply columns and foraging parties.

Very, very Caesar.  If you're a Roman general, familiar with Caesar, as Afranius should be, don't you expect him to plan something fiendish and move all his troops at night?


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## mmadsen (Jul 29, 2002)

*Chapter VIII -- Broken Promises*

Caesar's cavalry cleared the countryside of Afranius's foragers, and the Pompeian troops, locked behind the walls of camp and town, found themselves cut off from resupply, with dwindling resources....The Pompeians discreetly made their preparations, and then one day in July, carrying enough rations to last them twenty-two days, they took Caesar by surprise and succeeded in their breakout.

It certainly seems like a back-and-forth struggle.

Both sides built camps, but Caesar then worked his way around, across rough country, giving the appearance of a withdrawal but in reality aiming to skirt Afranius's position in a wide arc and place his forces in the other side's path at the foot of the mountains....A force of two thousand auxiliaries subsequently sent by Afranius to take high ground for him was cut off and wiped out by Caesar's cavalry, and the Pompeian army withdrew to the protection of its last camp and regained its equipment.

It seemed so close for a while there...


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## mmadsen (Jul 30, 2002)

While Afranius and Petreius were away from their camp...troops from Caesar's...Legions began to fraternize with the fellow Spaniards of the...Legions on the other side.  Many were fellow townsmen, some were even related, and before long men from Caesar's legions were in the Pompeian camp, sitting and talking and sharing food and camaraderie with their countrymen, all agreeing that it was crazy that they should be fighting each other.  Officers from the Pompeian camp even went to Caesar and proposed setting up talks to negotiate the surrender of their army.

That's got to be awkward.

When they heard about this, Generals Afranius and Petreius hurried back to their camp....Petreius then ordered men who had troops from Caesar's army in their tents to produce them at once.  Those who were given up...were put to death on the parade ground in front of the assembled Pompeian legions.

That's worse than being a guy caught in the girls' summer camp...


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## Maldur (Jul 30, 2002)

Yes mmadsen, I know but :
I felt it was more appropriate here. It was inspired by the vex, and in the other thread your discussing ways to stop the legions, not outfit them.


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## mmadsen (Jul 30, 2002)

Afranius and Petreius need grain to feed their troops, but the port of Tarraco (now Tarragona), where Pompey's fleet could supply them, is a week's march away.  Nearby Ilerda (Lerida), that they just left, doesn't have much grain, but it's close.  They march toward Ilerda.

Caesar's troops harry them.  They only make it four miles before they set up a new camp and slaughter their baggage animals for food.  Caesar builds his own camp two miles away and starts surrounding their camp with earthwords -- not so different from how he surrounded Vercingetorix in Alesia.

The Pompeians strengthened their defenses and watched the Caesarians work for three days until, at about three o'clock in the afternoon, General Afraniusled his whole army out of camp and formed his units up in battle order....Caesar marched out with his legions and formed up facing Afranius....There the two armies stood, staring at each other in silence, with Spaniard unwilling to fight Spaniard and neither side prepared to make the first move, until the sun went down.

Ooh, the tension!

The two armies then marched back to their respective camps.

Wow.

Caesar isn't in any hurry to kill Romans -- or to be accused of killing Romans -- to he takes his time, knowing Afranius has to surrender.

Caesar didn't have long to wait.  The next day, August 2, Generals Afranius and Petreius sent envoys to Caesar, seeking a peace conference.  But they wanted the conference to be out of the hearing of their men.  Caesar would only agree to discuss their surrender out in the open, within earshot of the troops...

Clever.  Caesar, of course, grants lenient terms to the rank-and-file troops.  They even shout their approval.

What I didn't immediately understand was why he merely disbanded the Pompeian units.  They were obviously getting along well with his men.  Well, here's why:

On August 4, the men of the 4th and 6th Legions, now disarmed, wer formally discharged by Julius Caesar and told to go home.  The men of both legions had been due for their discharge this year anyway, so this suited them just fine.


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## mmadsen (Jul 31, 2002)

Awhile back, I was looking for a quote from Sun Tzu's Art of War on capturing the enemy's forces and making them your own:

 1. Sun Tzu said:  In the practical art of war, the best
    thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact;
    to shatter and destroy it is not so good.  So, too, it is
    better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it,
    to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire
    than to destroy them.

I can't pretend it's particularly enlightening...


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## Rashak Mani (Jul 31, 2002)

You should keep in mind that SunTzu lived in a time where many chinese kingdoms fought each other.  Most soldiers would have no qualms about changing sides once captured. They all look alike anyway....    The same lessons would be harder for Cesar vs Barbarians...


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## mmadsen (Aug 1, 2002)

*Chapter VIII -- Broken Promises (continued)*

Caesar convinces the major towns of western Spain to throw out their garrisons and takes the region without bloodshed.  So far, so good.

What he doesn't realize is that a Pompeian fleet from Greece has seized one of his ships from his undefended port in Sicily, joined forces with another squadron of ship in Marseilles, defeated one of his fleets in the Mediterranean, and arrived at Tarrogona -- a godsend as far as General Afranius [is] concerned.

Afranius, who has sworn to stay out of the war as part of his surrender agreement, gathers 3,500 of his discharged troops and loads them up on board Nasidius's warships to join Pompey in Greece.

Hence the chapter title: Broken Promises.


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## Maldur (Aug 1, 2002)

It seems these Roman generals are not as Honourable as they claim to be. Strange that Ceasar didn't see this coming. Is he less ruthless against romans? Later it happens again! And ceasars response gets more violent. 

legionair arer discharged and 're'recruited by the thousands, and because the generals seem a bit preoccupied get treated worse every day. The shine and benefits of joining a legion are reduced immensely.


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 1, 2002)

Shark I saw your book list on the other thread... and hijacking a little the thread I would like to know the opinions of any of the thread members about these two books:

   Black Hawk Down: A story of Modern war   - Mark Bowden

   Band of Brothers  - Stephen Ambrose

or should I go for the Citizen Soldiers - Stephen Ambrose ?


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## mmadsen (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Black Hawk Down: A story of Modern war_ - Mark Bowden
> _Band of Brothers_  - Stephen Ambrose



I loved _Black Hawk Down_.  My only complaint is that it's a bit hard to follow a story with that many characters.  _Band of Brothers_ is still waiting in my to-read pile.  It's a "bargain book" at Barnes & Noble right now -- $5.


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## SHARK (Aug 1, 2002)

Greetings!

Hey there Rashak Mani. I can highly recommend Citizen Soldiers and Band of Brothers. Both are excellent books on WWII Infantry combat. I haven't read Black Hawk Down, but I have heard it is good.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Aug 1, 2002)

> Strange that Ceasar didn't see this coming.



He seems quite blind to the fact that he angers and humiliates people left and right, and they might not like that.  He seems to be a very charismatic, powerful guy -- and he seems to believe his own hype.


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## mmadsen (Aug 1, 2002)

*Chapter VIII -- Broken Promises (continued)*

Speaking of broken promises:

...Caesar would have disapproved when he heard that General Fabius had let the senior centurions of the 10th Legion take their discharges back in January.  Now, as he marched from Spain with the 10th, Caesar sent out recalls to every one of them.  Under the terms of their original enlistment they had to make themselves available for up to four additional years' service if their general required them and had to hand in their names and addresses to the local authorities wherever they went in their retirement.

First, of course, I'm sure it's unpleasant to finally retire and then get called back to war.  More interestingly though, those Romans certainly are modern.  The bureaucracy tracks you for recall wherever you move?  They've got a _system_, those Romans!


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 2, 2002)

The individual legion is probably recruited/set up in the same small region... shouldnt be too dificult to track em down...    ARent retired legionaires given plots of land ?  That could also be a means of keeping tract of their location....


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## mmadsen (Aug 2, 2002)

*Chapter VIII -- Broken Promises (continued)*

Caesar and the 10th arrived at Marseilles in early October, just as the city finally capitulated to General Trebonius, and after the Pompeian commander, General Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, had escaped by sea.  This was the same Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus who had commanded at Corfinium, the same man Caesar had let go free after accepting his word he would take no further part in the war.

As we were saying...

...the 9th Legion...was demanding it overdue discharge and a bonus Caesar had promised it at the outbreak of the civil war, and had gone on strike, refusing to obey its officers until its demands were met.  The 7th Legion, influenced by the 9th, had then followed suit.

Mutiny!


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## Maldur (Aug 2, 2002)

yes, broken promises on both sides.
Not that smart in a civil war. Now everyone starts disliking each other, and the legions get the short end of the stick.

Getting paid less, not being discharged after a long service.

Ceasar act like he is wearing blinders. He can only see his goal, ruling rome! I wonder what would have happened if he kept on th good side of his legions?


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## mmadsen (Aug 2, 2002)

> I wonder what would have happened if he kept on th good side of his legions?



The Senate and Pompey would've ruled Rome?


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## mmadsen (Aug 5, 2002)

> I loved _Black Hawk Down_.  My only complaint is that it's a bit hard to follow a story with that many characters.



I just watched a documentary on _Black Hawk Down_ on the History Channel, and certain elements reminded me of D&D.  Mogadishu certainly has that "wild west" lawlessness we expect of D&D border towns, including powerful weapons (RPGs and AKs, not Vorpal Longswords) for sale in the market.


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## mmadsen (Aug 5, 2002)

*Chapter VIII -- Broken Promises (continued)*

"My soldiers," he began, looking stern...."You swore to follow me for the whole war, not just part of it," he declared.  "And yet now you abandon us in midcourse and mutiny against your officers.  No one can doubt how much regard I have held you men in up to now.  But you give me no choice.  I shall put into practice our ancient custom.  Since the 9th Legion chiefly instigated the mutiny, lots will be drawn for every tenth man in the 9th Legion to die."

How brutal is that?  It's staggering!  Interestingly, when you finally learn that "decimation" means one in ten men are killed, it's almost a let down.  "Just one in ten?  I thought it meant almost everyone!"  Then you think about standing in line and getting counted off.  "1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...You die...1...2..."  Or drawing names out of a hat.  "Please don't call out 'mmadsen', please don't call out 'mmadsen', please don't call out 'mmadsen'..."

...Caesar relented a little.  He ordered the 9th Legion's centurions to name the 120 ringleaders of the mutiny.  These 120 were then required to draw lots.  One in ten of them drew the death card.

It's like a reverse lottery.  The army only loses a dozen soldiers, but every man in the legion feels like he could be one of the unlucky ones next time, so he'd better follow orders.

When it was proved that one of the final 12 condemned men hadn't even been in camp at the time of the mutiny, the vindictive centurion who gave in his name was dragged forward to take his place.

Ooh!  Now that's dramatic!

How exactly were they executed?  I'm glad you asked.

After the 12 men were beaten to death by their own comrades using wooden staves, or clubs...

Beaten to death.  By their own comrades.  Creepy.  Obviously you don't want to get beaten to death -- what a terrible way to go! -- but imagine having to beat your friend to death to prove your own loyalty!  Really creepy.

Caesar then hurried down to Rome, where he briefly used the title and powers of Dictator, originally a temporary appointment in times of emergency for up to six months.

So that's where "dictator" comes from...


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## Maldur (Aug 5, 2002)

Very creepy indeed!

Legion disipline is very scary.
Death when not in armor when building a fort, Crucifixion for sleeping on watch. And getting beaten to death by your own comrades when mutineering ( or beating your mate to death). 

Damn, I am glad in not in a legion. 

harsh times ask for harsh methods but this is shocking.


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## boer (Aug 6, 2002)

I'm also a lurker on this tread, very interesting, please continue.

For those of you who wonder about the fortifications and how they could build them so fast, there was a roman general, can't remember his name, that stated that the most important weapon of a legionair was his shovel.


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## mmadsen (Aug 6, 2002)

> Legion disipline is very scary.  Death when not in armor when building a fort, Crucifixion for sleeping on watch. And getting beaten to death by your own comrades when mutineering ( or beating your mate to death).



The good news is that I'm sure most of those punishments were rarely meted out.  I can see why you'd need the threat of death though.  If you were digging a trench or putting up a wall, and you had to wear full armor -- the equivalent of football or hockey pads -- in the hot sun, I'm sure you'd think, "Oh, c'mon, what are the odds that we get attacked _right now_?"


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## mmadsen (Aug 6, 2002)

> I'm also a lurker on this tread, very interesting, please continue.



Welcome, boer.  I'm glad you're enjoying the thread.


> For those of you who wonder about the fortifications and how they could build them so fast, there was a roman general, can't remember his name, that stated that the most important weapon of a legionair was his shovel.



I can certainly imagine a WWI general saying that!


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## mmadsen (Aug 6, 2002)

*Chapter IX -- The Race for Durres*

The same malady that had affected Pompey's troops at Brindisi in February and March had reappeared in southern Italy in the autumn with a vengeance, and now gripped Caesar's army, laying low his men in their thousands and making the embarkation camp on large melancholy hospital.  Few if any tents would have been without a man or two lying, moaning, perspiring, coughing, in his bed.  In an era when there were no antibiotic drugs, the sickness had reduced the legions to less than half their normal numbers of able-bodied men.

I can't imagine thousands of soldiers camped on one place would lead to the most hygienic living situation.  This, of course, is a common problem during wars, and here we have an example of thousands of men sick, half the men of eleven legions (each a few thousand strong).  And they're not sick in a modern hospital, or even a nice bed at home; they're sick in their tents.


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 7, 2002)

The first thing that came to my mind now is the fact that in Vietnam the number of American GIs who were "casualties" due to venereal disease....  some things never change... just transform...


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## mmadsen (Aug 7, 2002)

> The first thing that came to my mind now is the fact that in Vietnam the number of American GIs who were "casualties" due to venereal disease....  some things never change... just transform...



That's been a problem in every war -- certainly in the American Civil War, WWI, and WWII.  At one point during the Civil War, the authorities realized they could keep prostitution above board, check the prostitutes for diseases, keep the sick ones out of circulation, and practically end venereal disease.  After the war, they of course drove it underground again.


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## mmadsen (Aug 7, 2002)

*Chapter IX -- The Race for Durres (continued)*

"We have come almost to the end of our toils and dangers," Caesar went on.  "You may therefore leave your slaves and baggage behind in Italy with easy minds.  You must embark with only basic kit to allow a greater number of troops to be put on board the ships available.  When we win, my generosity in reward will answer all your hopes."

He's suitably vague about the reward.  I find it interesting that soldiers at war are expected to have slaves, and I have to wonder where you put your slaves while you're away fighting in Greece.  Who looks after them?


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## Maldur (Aug 7, 2002)

They put them in a slavehostel 

So leaving their bagage behind They now operate on just the thing they can carry on thier backs. As their javelins are one-shot weapons, I can only imagin every legionair stoking up on those. Crazy conditions on those shis. Legionairs packed in holds and on decks. must be demoralizing leaving your luxuries/loved ones/slaves behind.

In modern nato training a percentage of soldiers drops out ( due accidents etc) , I wonder what the atrition-rate would be on campaigns like this. Lesser Medical, more people, walking every where. It seems undoable without many casualties.


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## mmadsen (Aug 7, 2002)

> In modern nato training a percentage of soldiers drops out ( due accidents etc) , I wonder what the atrition-rate would be on campaigns like this. Lesser Medical, more people, walking every where. It seems undoable without many casualties.



I wouldn't assume that the Romans has less effective care for twisted ankles, etc. than modern armies, and I would assume that the Roman armies had better-walking soldiers than modern armies; they'd been hiking/marching regularly their whole lives.  And they certainly had a lot fewer traffic accidents.


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## mmadsen (Aug 7, 2002)

*Chapter IX -- The Race for Durres (continued)*

Even though they probably weren't particularly popular with his men, Caesar had a penchant for amphibious landings and nigh operations.  He liked the way an amphibious assault could deliver a mass of troops to one place at one time.  He also liked to use the elment of surprise that darkness provided, recognizing...that "the mightiest weapon of war is surprise."

Very Sun Tzu.  If the men have to be "sardined" in the hold, seasick, so be it.

In modern times, Caesar would have been a great exponent of the use of paratroops and the US Marine Corps for troop insertions.

And finally we see why SHARK _really_ recommended _Caesar's Legion_!


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## mmadsen (Aug 7, 2002)

*Chapter IX -- The Race for Durres (continued)*

They'd invaded Britain twice, after all.  But that had been different.  There had been no opposition naval forces lurking in the darkness when they crossed the English Channel.  Now, somewhere out ther in the night, picket ships of Pompey's navy might appear at any moment.

That would be terribly scary, sitting more-or-less hopeless in a troop transport as the enemy's navy appears.


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## mmadsen (Aug 8, 2002)

*Chapter IX -- The Race for Durres (continued)*

The landing of the troops of the first wave had taken longer than it should have....Before long, the strong breeze that traditionally blew from the south on January nights dropped away.  Soon the empty transports were drifting helplessly, within sight of the coast....Thirty of Caesar's troopships were captured.

At least Caesar is lucky enough to lose his transports _after_ they've delivered their payloads.

...Bibulus decided to make an example of the captured vessels.

"Burn them," he ordered.

"And their captains and crews, Admiral?" a subordinate would have asked.

"Leave them where they are."

Brutal.

The burning bolts [dipped in tar] were fired at the cargo vessels.  Soon all thirty were burning fiercely as the crews of the warships all around them watched the spectacle in engrossed, ghoulish silence.  Those crewmen on the thirty doomed transports who didn't burn to death were drowned when they jumped into the cold, dark waters to escape the flames.  Any who tried to swim to the Pompeian warships were fended off, and they, too, were eventually claimed by the waves.

Grisly.


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## Maldur (Aug 8, 2002)

I had a slow day at work this morning so I had time to read the last few chapters. 

Rough opinion about the whole book.

The book starts great with explaining the earlier days of the legion, giving a view of the scale legions operated in. The techniques and tactics used. And how Ceasar used them (particular the 10th , as this is the focal point of the book).

I am still impressed by the scale of things.
The amount of troops used, the speed of maneuvering, and the engineering feats performed.

The middle of the book, about the civil war Ceasar finds himself in, is slightly less about the legions and more about Ceasar, ending in the climatic Assasination scene we all know. ( E tu Brutu?) Legion acomplishments are more a list of dates when what legion whent where, do do something. Still there are some great images to be found amoung these lists. ( mmadsen finds most of them!)

The book ends in a more crunchy style ( like the first part). The focus is on the 10th legion, scetching their exploits in the middle east. Again the brutal efficienty of the legions amaze me.

All in all a great read! If you like roman (or SHARKS valladorian) Legions it's a must read.
I think SHARK can use several ideas from the last chapters ( the sieges of Jerusalem and Masala) in his defense of the mountain fortress.

The writer has done research on several different "individual" legions. It might be interesting to see what the other legions have been up to, even though a lot of legions are described in this book. But what be more interesting are other thing he might be able to tell us about the roman military machine. Techniques, teactics, Equipment, etc all with a backdrop of anecdotes and example stories  Ill scout around if he wrote any more. ( or do you know allready, SHARK?)




PS I will keep asking (strange) questions on other post on this thread. Dont think youll get rid of me this easily.


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 8, 2002)

How would you guys rate the book overall ?  

5 - A must buy 
4 - Worthwhile/Good
3 - OK
2 - For Roman Fanatics only
1 - Forget it


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## mmadsen (Aug 8, 2002)

> How would you guys rate the book overall ?
> 
> 5 - A must buy
> 4 - Worthwhile/Good
> ...



I have definitely enjoyed the book, and I wasn't a diehard "fan" of ancient Rome going in, so it deserves more than a 1 or 2.  The fact that I want to tell everyone I meet some little anecdote from the book is a good sign -- and so's the fact that everyone seems to enjoy the anecdotes as well.

As Maldur points out though, it struggles through some dry spells in the middle, with "this legion went here, this legion went there" and fewer colorful passages.  Also, it makes an awkward transition from a book about Caesar's _Legio X_ to a book summarizing Caesar's death and its aftermath.

I give it four smiley faces (out of five possible):


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## mmadsen (Aug 8, 2002)

> Still there are some great images to be found amoung these lists. ( mmadsen finds most of them!)



Thank you, Maldur.  I try!


> All in all a great read! If you like roman (or SHARKS valladorian) Legions it's a must read.



Agreed.


> I think SHARK can use several ideas from the last chapters ( the sieges of Jerusalem and Masala) in his defense of the mountain fortress.



When you get to the sections on Jerusalem and Masala, you quickly see where the word "zealot" comes from.  Wow.


> The writer has done research on several different "individual" legions. It might be interesting to see what the other legions have been up to, even though a lot of legions are described in this book.



Agreed.


> But what be more interesting are other thing he might be able to tell us about the roman military machine. Techniques, teactics, Equipment, etc all with a backdrop of anecdotes and example stories



Ooh, that could be good!


----------



## optimizer (Aug 8, 2002)

Howdy!



			
				Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> *How would you guys rate the book overall ?
> 
> 5 - A must buy
> 4 - Worthwhile/Good
> ...




I would rate this as a 4 if you enjoy history or a 5 if you really like Roman military history.  It presents the material in a new way (at least to me) by concentrating on 1 legion and its place in Roman history.  I would have prefered some more maps of the battles and some more material on the equiping of the legions and how they changed over time, but I think there are other works that cover that material.

I have enjoyed reading the book and would be interested in reading some more works by this author.

Mike


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## SHARK (Aug 8, 2002)

Greetings!

Chapter XI: The Battle of Pharsalus

"What hopes for victory, Gaius Crastinus? What grounds for encouragement?"

said Caesar to the Centurion. The hardened, veteran centurion answered--

"You will conquer gloriously today."

This I can see--almost like Patton talking to his men as he advances to the front of the battlefield. Caesar, for all of his glory, his arrogance, and his immense personal power and authority, seems to maintain a warm, friendly, even fatherly relationship with his soldiers. At the end of the day, they are largely fanatically loyal to him, and it becomes apparent why. The centurion marches onward! The Centurions are so critically important to the entire Roman Legion--indeed, they are the very spine, the very glue that forges it together.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 8, 2002)

I think he is more like napoleon... cultivating his image and their loyalty.  They are more like loyal dogs to him I would say...


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## Maldur (Aug 9, 2002)

Ill have to agree with  Rashak Mani on this one SHARK. I know he is one of your Heroes, but Ceasar has ( or had) his faults.

To rate the book I would say a 4 or a 5 if your really into romans.

I did do some quick searches but I cant find any other books by this author. Does anyone know?


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## mmadsen (Aug 9, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat*

This sounds like a D&D adventure:

In February, Pompey's Admiral Libo made a daring dash across the Adriatic to Brindisi, where he landed a commando force of marines from fifty warships.  They sank a number of ships and captured several more, initially causing great panic in the Italian city.  But the raiders were soon driven off by Mark Antony's second-wave troops, who were still waiting in the embarkation camp to cross the Adriatic, and withdrew with their limited spoils.


----------



## Rashak Mani (Aug 9, 2002)

Only with Cesar would someone call a FIFTY warship excursion a "Commando Force of Marines."


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## Maldur (Aug 10, 2002)

"Commando raid from 50 ships"

Thats about 50x50= 2500 men, thats only half a legion 
(and I use the low , only 50 men from each ship estimate)
When your using 10's of legions at a time thats only a small expedition.

But I wont call it a commando raid. More a search and destoy mission ( find the ships and torch them). You can also call it massive beach landing.

Again the scale is staggering. Besides I still find the concept of civil war, very strange! Romans fighting romans, Odd!


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 10, 2002)

Maldur Barbarians are Barbarians... the real power struggle was in Rome... never in the frontiers. The frontiers were minor to Romes power grubbing culture.  

   Romans fighting Romans wasnt as unusual as one might think... they woudnt be called civil wars thou always.

   The 2500 "commando raid" does sound like a massive beach landing...


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## SHARK (Aug 11, 2002)

Greetings!

I find it particularly interesting to see the essential concepts of modern warfare present right there in Caesar's headquarters!

Think about it:

(1) "Blitzkrieg"--The use of combined operations; cavalry, infantry, support troops, even siege weapons and artillery, all working together to keep moving, and keep destroying the enemy.

(2) Rapid Flanking manuevers by cavalry or infantry. In both cases, the tactics and results are comparable to warfare today.

(3) The use of spies and Psy-Ops. Caesar uses spies, assassins, and many different forms of psychological warfare, ranging from deception, to mercy, intimidation, to death and terror. Caesar uses all such psychological tools to gain the outcome that he desires.

(4) Amphibious Warfare: Caesar uses Marines and ships in daring raids, supply operations, interdiction, as well as full scale invasions. Everything that we use today.

and more, from siege operations to higher levels of diplomacy and propaganda, Caesar has it all. In various elements, these things are present in other kingdoms, times, and individuals, of course, but it seems that it is all brought together in a seamless, well-oiled machine under Rome, and especially Caesar.

Just amazing!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Rashak Mani (Aug 11, 2002)

Funny I noticed the difference with modern warfare.... 

  Fortification EVERY night... Armor even when digging... close formation in combat... 

   They always try to get to a good terrain before engaging enemy.

   Romans seems very worried about defense and minimizing casualties.


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## Luiz d'Artayn (Aug 11, 2002)

{delurk}

Keep it coming 

I'm a rampant reader but not a book buyer (gotta watch the budget, etc). Local library has Caesar's Legion but it won't be back in circulation until the end of the month, so until then I am expecting this thread to keep me entertained and informed, mmmkay? 

Of course, compared to the Roman Military *Machine* (because that's what it was), Middle Ages massed warfare was a good deal less efficient. Understandable really: "William the Conqueror invaded Britain with 9000 Normans" - surely one of the most confusing rolecalls of all time. 

{relurk}


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## mmadsen (Aug 12, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*

Caesar keeps sending for Antony to bring reinforcements from Italy to Greece, but Antony never quite accepts the risk.  Hence, this aprocryphal, almost mythic story:

But several classic authors tell the story -- not told by Caesar himself -- that he became so frustrated by Antony's failure to reinforce him, despite days and weeks of excellent sailing weather through the latter part of January and into February, that he had his servants hire a twelve-oared fishing boat to take him across to Italy so he could personally stir his subordinates into action.  He then boarded the craft disguised as a slave.  But soon after the boat began the voyage, the weather changed.  As the crew prepared to turn back, Caesar revealed his true identity and urged the fishermen to continue on.  But the weather grew steadily worse, and in the face of a howling gale Caesar was forced back to shore, after which he abandoned the idea of a covert trip to Italy.


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## optimizer (Aug 13, 2002)

Howdy!



			
				Luiz d'Artayn said:
			
		

> *Of course, compared to the Roman Military *Machine* (because that's what it was), Middle Ages massed warfare was a good deal less efficient. Understandable really: "William the Conqueror invaded Britain with 9000 Normans" - surely one of the most confusing rolecalls of all time.
> *




LOL -- I just wanted to say that this brought a smile to my face!  

Mike


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 13, 2002)

In Discovery Channel a program about the romans said, as far as amputations were concerned, the Romans were better than other armies until WW I.  Before WWI amputations werent up to Roman standards !.

   Field Dressing and Medics first became organized in Roman Legions.


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## mmadsen (Aug 14, 2002)

> In Discovery Channel a program about the romans said, as far as amputations were concerned, the Romans were better than other armies until WW I.  Before WWI amputations werent up to Roman standards!   Field Dressing and Medics first became organized in Roman Legions.



When you think about modern medicine, you have to realize it's only about a hundred years old, and aside from a few amazing discoveries (antibiotics, x-rays), it probably isn't up to the level of ancient Roman field medicine or ancient Greek sports medicine.

If you have centuries of armed conflict, with medics sewing up soldiers, or centuries of athletic competition, with trainers pulling dislocated shoulders back into joint, you build up an impressive pool of applied skills.


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## mmadsen (Aug 14, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*

As Antony's fleet of transports approached the coast near Durres, the squadron of Rhodian cruisers based their under Admiral Gaius Coponius came out after it.  But the wind strengthened into a gale, and while most of Antony's ships found shelter in a cove three miles north of the town of Lissus, modern Alessio, sixteen of Admiral Coponius's cruisers were dashed to pieces on the rocky coast.

Wild.

In the middle of the night, the storm subsided.  While Antony landed his troops north of Alessio and pulled Pompeian sailors and marines from the sea, two of his troopships that had ridden out the storm at anchor off Alessio now found themselves surrounded by burning torches on Pompeian small craft from the town.  Weakened by seasickness and promised lenient treatment by Pompeian officers, 220 raw recruits of the 29th Legion aboard one ship surrendered.  Disarmed, the Italian teenagers were taken ashore, where they were all summarily executed by the Pompeian commander at Alessio.

Eek!  Maybe it's because raw recruits are worthless, but I'd've thought an enemy Roman commander would merge them into his existing force -- not promise them lenient treatment then execute them!


----------



## Maldur (Aug 14, 2002)

breaking their word became a favorite passtime for roman officers. Maybe its because its a civilwar but kinda strange, you would think they had some honour? Isn't chivalry something that started in the roman empire?


----------



## mmadsen (Aug 14, 2002)

> breaking their word became a favorite passtime for roman officers.



I don't think there's anything peculiarly Roman about that.  If anything, we simply expect more out of "civilized" military officers.


----------



## mmadsen (Aug 14, 2002)

I love the contrast between how the raw recruits reacted and how the hardened veterans took things into their own hands:

There were just under 200 experienced legionaries...on the other ship, men...with seventeen years' hard service under their belts.  Rather than surrender, they forced the ship's master to run their vessel onto the shore, and in the morning landed.  The Spanish legionaries fought their way through a Pompeian cavalry detachment sent to capture them, then marched three miles along the coast and joined Mark Antony.

How can you not think, "Rock on!"?


----------



## Rashak Mani (Aug 15, 2002)

Moral of the Story:  Don't surrender. Always fight ? Nice image of their fighting their way back.

  Soldiers with 17 years of service !? If they started at a tender 18, they would be 35 year-olds fighting it out.


----------



## mmadsen (Aug 15, 2002)

> Moral of the Story:  Don't surrender. Always fight?



Except that we have plenty of counter-examples where surrender paid off.  I'm really surprised a Roman general would execute "enemy" Roman soldiers who surrendered like that.


----------



## mmadsen (Aug 15, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*

Caesar was now able to reunite with his faithful friend Mark Antony.  Combining their legions, Caesar now had an army of twenty-six thousand men.

There's that Roman scale again.  One of the two armies in a Roman civil war has 26,000 men.

But even if he'd had more troops to draw on back in Italy, he could have kissed them good-bye, because now Pompey's eldest son, Gnaeus, brought the Roman fleet normally based in Egypt ranging along the Adriatic coast in a devestating raid.  At one coastal town after another, young Pompey captured or burned Antony's transports as they rode at anchor.  Overnight, Caesar lost his capacity for resupply from Italy and was cut off in Albania.

Is Caesar about to get "A Taste of Defeat"?


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## Maldur (Aug 15, 2002)

26000 men and more back in Italy.  

Ceasars dependancy of fast maneuvering is obvious. Because the sea is contolled by the enemy he has only a small portion of his army where he needs them. Its a strange oversight to forget to form a navy in the mediteranian.


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## mmadsen (Aug 15, 2002)

> Its a strange oversight to forget to form a navy...



Good point.  I assume it's difficult and expensive to build ships and train sailors.  The Romans have an established process for recruiting soldiers.  They'd need to throw together an _ad hoc_ process for building a navy.


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## mmadsen (Aug 15, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*

Meanwhile, Caesar followed Pompey back up toward Durres, then tramped off through the hills to the east.  Pompey let him go, thinking he was going in search of wheat.  Then it dawned on him what Caesar was up to.  Rapidly he broke camp and marched his army north along the coast.

You want to know what Caesar's up to, don't you?

Within a day, his worst fears were realized.  By forced march, Caesar has used hill paths to work his way north of Pompey's position through the mountainous terrain.  Marching up the road from Apollonia, Pompey came up on Caesar's army digging in along the coast south of Durres.  Now, to reach his food and ammunition stored at Durres, Pompey would have to go through Caesar's army.

Great story of Caesar's cunning, and yet another example of how brilliant maneuvers are often about cutting off supply, and not necessarily about crushing the enemy in glorious combat.


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## mmadsen (Aug 15, 2002)

> Funny I noticed the difference with modern warfare....
> Romans seems very worried about defense and minimizing casualties.



That's a difference?  I can't imagine a military more concerned with minimizing casualties than the modern US military.  After defeating Iraq with just dozens of allied casualties, we expect to win without getting hurt.  This, of course, troubles our generals, but the American people expect to win wars without spilling American blood.


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## mmadsen (Aug 15, 2002)

> I find it particularly interesting to see the essential concepts of modern warfare present right there in Caesar's headquarters!



As Rashak Mani points out, we should see similarities and differences.  In each war, the generals have to learn how to use all that "timeless" military wisdom _this time_, with this generation's technology.

Obviously, legions of riflemen three lines deep closing ranks to charge the enemy doesn't necessarily make sense.


> "Blitzkrieg"--The use of combined operations; cavalry, infantry, support troops, even siege weapons and artillery, all working together to keep moving, and keep destroying the enemy.



But any mixed force meets those criteria for _Blitzkrieg_.  Many of Caesar's operations did rely on "maneuver warfare", but many others involved prolonged sieges -- not very _blitz_.  In fact, we could compare many of his operations to WWI trench warfare, the opposite of _Blitzkrieg_.


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 15, 2002)

I wouldnt exactly compare with WWI which is hard to compare to anything outside the modern era... but the emphasis on mobility isnt in the way we see it today.

   Imagine modern Marines having to dig a fort every day ? The Romans certainly seem to value the use of transport ships in some strategms... but overall they seem very worried, against barbarians at least, about fortifications and defensive posture. 

   Could I dare say Strategic Mobility was their concern ?


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## Darkness (Aug 15, 2002)

Just read the entire thread. Great stuff, folks! 

I've always loved Roman history...

Heh. I've even "forced" myself to read Theodor Mommsen's quite dry (but still awesome - it didn't get that nobel prize in literature fer nuthin' ) eight volumes of "A history of Rome."
The German version of it, that is; I always try to read everything in the original language - provided that the language of the original work is either English or German.  Or Latin, even though that's not as easy for me...
In fact, my decision to learn Latin was based mostly on my interest in Roman history (besides, the alternative would have been French - and what do I _need_ French for in my everyday life, anyway? ).
I've of course also read Caesar's de bello Gallico (both in German and Latin).

But apart from these books, I haven't yet read too many great books about Rome. 
Of course, GURPS Imperial Rome is a great book, too (), and reading all volumes of Asterix - including one in Latin - was also very cool, but still... 

So I think that reading Caesar's Legion would be quite thrilling for me. 
I'll try to get it; won't be exactly easy here in Austria (and without a credit card or any form of online banking, online ordering is right out, I guess), but I'll set my most trusted book store clerks on it...


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## mmadsen (Aug 15, 2002)

> Just read the entire thread. Great stuff, folks!



Danke, Dunkelheit.


> I've even "forced" myself to read Theodor Mommsen's quite dry (but still awesome - it didn't get that nobel prize in literature fer nuthin' ) eight volumes of "A history of Rome."



I don't know if I can make time for eight volumes on any one subject.  I just keep looking at my growing book pile, and I shudder.


> Of course, GURPS Imperial Rome is a great book, too (), and reading all volumes of Asterix - including one in Latin - was also very cool, but still...



That reminds me, I barely read Latin (one summer school course), but my classicist buddy pointed me toward Caesaris Bellum Helveticum: Caesar's Gallic Wars by Karl Heinz Gra Von Rothenburg.  It's a comic-book rendition of Caesar's _Gallic Wars_, in Latin.


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## mmadsen (Aug 15, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*

Speaking of trench warfare...

Caesar, as much an engineering genius as a master soldier, then began building a double line of entrenchments right around Pompey's camp.  By the time he had finished, the inner line ran for fifteen miles and incorporated twenty-four forts.  The outer ine, set back eleven hundred yards, extended for seventeen miles.


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## Darkness (Aug 16, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> ...
> I don't know if I can make time for eight volumes on any one subject.  I just keep looking at my growing book pile, and I shudder. ...*



They're novel-sized, on the average, BTW. Plus, they were in German; for some reason, English books are usually somewhat thinner than German ones - probably because English doesn't need so many words to describe things. 
Anyway, I agree: Nowadays, I couldn't read 8 books in any reasonable amount of time, either.


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## mmadsen (Aug 16, 2002)

> Imagine modern Marines having to dig a fort every day ? The Romans certainly seem to value the use of transport ships in some strategms... but overall they seem very worried, against barbarians at least, about fortifications and defensive posture.



I wouldn't say the Romans were "worried" about fortifications; they simply knew they were very effective.  On the modern battlefield, you can't dig in well enough in one night to render yourself virtually immune to attack.  In ancient Rome, you could.


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## jgbrowning (Aug 16, 2002)

*reading suggestion*

I'd pick up John Peddie's "The Roman War Machine"

excellent.

joe b.


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## mmadsen (Aug 16, 2002)

*Re: reading suggestion*



> I'd pick up John Peddie's "The Roman War Machine"  excellent.



The few reviews I've seen haven't been particularly positive.  What did you like about it?


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## mmadsen (Aug 16, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*

...residents of Durres stole out of the city and found their way to Caesar, offering to change sides and betray the town to him.  They told him to come in the dead of night to one of the city gates, the one near the shrine of Artemis, which was apparently outside the city walls, bringing a small number of picked men.  Then, just before dawn, they would open the gates to him so he could seize the city.

Anyone else's spider sense tingling?  It certainly sounds like a scene we could steal for a D&D scenario though!

Here at daybreak, as Caesar approached the gate by the temple of Artemis, Pompey sprung a trap.  Caesar's cavalry were ambushed in the lanes by waiting troops, and they had to fight desperately to make their escape, with Caesar himself only just evading capture.

He really was lucky -- for awhile there.


----------



## mmadsen (Aug 16, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*

I can certainly see PCs leading this assault force:

It had been a moonlit night, but aided by thick clouds that shrouded the moon, the assault force had crept unseen across no-man's-land and quietly filled in parts of the trenches skirting the fortified wall of the 8th Legion fort.  As dawn broke, the spearhead troops surged across the trench, paving the way for archers, who set about raining arrows into the fort.

A few gruesome stats:

But he [Caesar] does admit that every survivor was wounded -- some 250 to 300 men -- with 4 centurions of the 8th Legion cohort losing eyes to arrows.

Amond the wounded...was the fort's commander, Colonel Minucius, who also lost an eye and received five additional wounds.  When Caesar arrrived back from Durres he was shown the shield of Cassius Scaevus, a junior centurion of the 8th grade who'd taken over command of the fort after Colonel Minucius and the four other more senior centurions were wounded.  If we can believe it, the had been punctured 120 times in the fight.

I can just imagine arrows deflecting off shields and armor until eventually one finds an opening -- right between the top of the shield and the rim of the helmet.

Caesar also claims that his men collected thirty thousand Pompeian arrows that had been fired into the fort.  Centurion Scaevus was promoted to the first rank and received a bonus of two hundred thousand sesterces, a fortune for an enlisted man.  All the other survivors of the cohort were later given _duplicarius_ status -- their wages were doubled -- and received extra food and clothing allowances.

At least the hazard pay's good.


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## jgbrowning (Aug 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: reading suggestion*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> The few reviews I've seen haven't been particularly positive.  What did you like about it? *




dont have time for afull response right now, but one of the most useful things in the book is the diagram showing how it took 6 (8)? legions cant remember off the top of my head 16 hours to go 10 miles.

excellent information on logistics and engenering.

try to respond with more later,

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Aug 17, 2002)

*the roman war machine*

ok here's the longer post, got the book infront of me.

1. roman generalship
2. command and control
3. supply trains and baggage
4. marching camp techniques
5. supporting arms and weaponry
6 waterborne operations
7 siege warfare.

those are the chapters. they cover much of interest on the nuts-and-bolts of moving that many men and equipment.

things i liked,

he shows how the romans would ocassionally use traditionally defensive actions for offense.... marching camps provided a safer area to "fall back to". (this is apoor summation, but i hope you get the drift)

through overview of logistics.  honestly logistics are often the most important part of any war, more so than training, command and morale.  you MUST feed your men.

the sections about generalship and command and control show the different tecniques the romans used.  Strategy and again the nuts-and-bolts about how the hell you communicate over distances given the tech level.

the waterborne section is nice, discusses the building of ships etc...

ok here the chart i was talking about.  its his copyright so dont spread it around

column on the march
march timings
Data: a march rate = 3 miles and hour
          b distance to camp 2 is 10 miles
          c  overall lenght of marching column = 22.5 miles
          d. departure time is H hour

serial no.          time            event                   remarks
1                 H hour          recce group
                                       departs camp I

2             +0 h 10m        VAnguard departs          followed by com-
                                    camp I                            mand group and
                                                                            main body

3          +3h 20m      Recce group arrives Camp II

4          +3h 30m     VAnguard arrives camp II      followed by com-
                                                                            mand group and
                                                                       head of main body

5         +3h 30m  CAmp layout commenced       Tail of main body
                                                                          departs camp I

6      +3 h 30m   Head of baggage train departs     Tail ofmainbody
                             camp I                                     departs camp I

7  +4h   Protective screen deployed               after arrival of 1st
                                                                           legion

8   +4h 30m  Fortifications commenced           after arrival of 2nd
                                                                             legion

9  +6h 30m  Tail of main body arrives Camp II   

10  +7h  Head of baggage train arrives       sligtly slower march 
                            camp II                            rate than main body

11 +7h 30m fortifications complete

12  +12h  tail of baggage train arrives     column complete at 
                                                                       camp II

(his source is Ceaser, de bello gallico, II, 17-28.)


I've heard a few bad reviews about this book as well, mostly about how the author tends to digress abit about his service in WWII and honestly, although there are some simularities between the two time periods (situation wise) i think it would have been a better book if he would have just left them out.

it does have a nice appendix about labour figures for common engineering tasks from the royal school of military engineering.  it give the averge man hours expect to accomplish certain tasks (like clearing dense undergrowth with samplings up to 100mm diameter... 1 man could reasonallby be expected to clear 11.7 meters in 1 hour).  

though up for debate, this kind of information probably holds true for the roman time.  but the romans did not have access to such high grade steel we use, so they may have taken a bit longer.  But it helps get you in the ballpark.

anyway, gotta run and eat.

joe b.

(also if you can find the Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire : From the First Century A.D. to the Third by edward n luttwak, read it.  its a good evaluation of roman strategy.)

edit:  sorry the chart didnt turn out right, i hope you can piecemeal it together.


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## mmadsen (Aug 19, 2002)

*Re: the roman war machine*



> 1. roman generalship
> 2. command and control
> 3. supply trains and baggage
> 4. marching camp techniques
> ...



It certainly sounds "nuts and bolts" with chapters on supply trains and marching.

On the subject of logistics, I've been eyeing Supplying War: Logistics from Wallenstein to Patton
by Martin L. van Creveld.  I never thought logistics would be an exciting topic, but the reviews are glowing and the excerpts look good too.


----------



## mmadsen (Aug 19, 2002)

> Just read the entire thread. Great stuff, folks!



This brings up an interesting tangent, Darkness.  From what I can gather, most people on the boards refuse to read a long thread, evidently seeing it as a burden, rather than more of the good stuff they come to the message boards for.  Odd...


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## mmadsen (Aug 19, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*

Now while some of Pompey's legionaries made a frontal attack, filling in the ditches in front of the Caesarian wall, then bringing up assault ladders and artillery pieces, archers worked their way around the flanks.  The only form of missile that the men of the 9th possessed was stones.  Pompey's intelligence was so good he even knew this fact, and he'd equipped his storm troops with special wicker coverings for their helmets that created faceguards to protect their faces from flying stones.

I love special countermeasures like that -- wicker faceguards against thrown rocks.


----------



## Maldur (Aug 20, 2002)

Also the 9th did use stones as missile weapons. To use a SHARK line:  the overcame their supply problem and adapted. Improvising weapons is a sign of flexibility and adaptability. Picture a knight throwing rocks


----------



## mmadsen (Aug 20, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*

Pompey's attack overwhelms the men of the 9th, all veterans in their thirties, and most of the 9th's senior centurions fall.

The 9th's fort had been taken and the double walls of the encirclement were breached in numerous places along the shoreline so that Pompey's cavalry could get out and seek fodder, and ships could land supplies.

Then Pompey's troops occupy a deserted Caesarian camp near the sea, tenable now that the 9th has been pushed back.

As they took up defensive positions on the ramparts of the camp, Caesar could see that these troops would be able to cover supplies coming to the beach.

Pompey has outmaneuvered Caesar!

Caesar personally leads an attack on the fort, and Pompey personally leads his own troops against Caesar.  Caesar's men become lost in the complex entrenchments.

Encouraged by the sight of their commander in chief [Pompey] coming up with the experienced legions, Puleio and his troops fighting for their lives in the camp regained the initiative and charged Caesar's men, driving them back.  Seeing this sudden change of fortune, Caesar's cavalry panicked.  They tried to go back the way they had come, down the narrow alley.  The troops on the right wing, seeing the cavalry turning and fleeing, seeing Pompey coming with thousands of reinforcements, hearing their comrades inside the camp in trouble, and fearing that they were going to be cut off, jumped into a ten-foot trench that they thought would provide an escape route.  Hundreds of Caesar's men were trampled to death in this trench as their own desperate colleagues jumped in on top of them in an attempt to escape.

Trampled by their own men jumping into the trench on top of them!  Here's how bad the panic gets:

He [Caesar] grabbed standards to stem the flood, but the standard-bearers simply let go of them and kept going.  Appian even writes of a frantic standard-bearer trying to stab Caesar with the pointed bottom tip of his standard in his desperation to get away -- and being cut down by men of Caesar's bodyguard.


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## mmadsen (Aug 20, 2002)

*Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*

In this encounter, which historians were to call the Battle of Dyrrhachium, Pompey's troops captured thirty-two standards from the 9th Legion and other units involved in the right wing of Caesar's counterattack and from the Caesarian cavalry....But had Pompey followed up on his success, Caesar could have lost the war.

A taste of defeat -- but just a taste.  Caesar demoted standard-bearers who had fled, and spoke to his men:

"The setback we have sustained cannot be blamed on me.  I gave an opportunity for battle on favorable ground.  I took possession of the enemy camp.  I drove the enemy out.  Through your fear, or some mistake, or some stroke of fate, the victory that was as good as in our grasp was lost.  So it falls to you to make an effort to repair the damage, through your valor.  If you do, you will turn our loss to gain, as happened at Gergovia."

Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't strike me as a great speech.  "I did everything right, but then you blew it!"


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## Maldur (Aug 21, 2002)

It almost sound like a spoiled kid:

"I did it right but you ruined my fun"

he's pretty self centered, he is right but could have told his men in a more diplomatic way.


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## mmadsen (Aug 22, 2002)

*Re: Chapter X -- A Taste of Defeat (continued)*



> He [Caesar] grabbed standards to stem the flood, but the standard-bearers simply let go of them and kept going.  Appian even writes of a frantic standard-bearer trying to stab Caesar with the pointed bottom tip of his standard in his desperation to get away -- and being cut down by men of Caesar's bodyguard.



Since we've already read about the standard-bearer jumping into the water off the coast of Britain -- and how the men _had_ to follow him -- this is even more striking.  Roman standard-bearers just dropping the standards?  Trying to stab their general with the butt end of the standard to get away?  That must have been some serious panic for such profession soldiers!


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## SHARK (Aug 22, 2002)

Greetings!

Chapter X: A Taste of Defeat
____________________________________________________
Page 110; Quote:

"Gomphi, a town in Thessaly, had gone over to Pompey after the news of his success at Durres, and Caesar decided to make an example of it, to ensure the cooperation of other Greek communities. A little rape and pillage wouldn't do the damaged morale of his men any harm, either. Surrounding the town, he sent his legions against the walls. They began the assault in the early afternoon. As the sun was setting, they broke into the town. Caesar gave his troops permission to plunder Gomphi. It was destroyed, and every one of its inhabitants killed.
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

How's that to wake up to in the morning! Damn. Just wiped that little town off the face of the map. No UN to complain to there. Oh, wait...Rome was the UN...ah, well, it certainly was a different time, then, wasn't it? It is interesting that in towns later encountered, they opened their gates, and cooperated with Caesar. Who says that being ruthless doesn't gain cooperation? Here it seems that Caesar had just had enough of these towns playing games with loyalties, and decided that this town would pay the price for their waffling. Hmmm...interesting implications for when player-characters are in command of forces in the field and they come upon towns that waffle back and forth...what do they do? If you have a paladin order a town "Plundered" so that he can make an example of the town in order to achieve a greater strategic cooperation with nearby towns through the campaign, that isn't going to feel good, or very "chivalrous"--but then again, I have often argued that many of the philosophies that surround paladins are not the ideas of the original ruthless and noble, Knight-Templars, which paladins are clearly based off of, but yet then combined with much of the philosophy from tournament society of some two-three centuries later, where "paladins"--such as they were, were really restricted largely to the neat tournament field where all of these little rules and regulations applying to the paladin could be neatly applied, because everyone else that the paladin encountered in such phony "battlefields" operated by the same standards. Such, it seems, where much of the philososphy comes from, rather from the real mud, slaughter, and difficult decisions that have to be made by everyone involved in ferocious war that is unchained in the real world, rather than the tournament world.

In game terms, I don't think that Caesar was a Lawful Good paladin by any means, but what if a paladin was put in a similar position of desperate command? What if there were Lawful Good paladins serving in such an army, where the army's supreme commander--in this case Caesar--gives the order for you--a junior commander, and a paladin--to "Plunder the city!" The men under your command--including you--are to rape, plunder, and slaughter the entire population. That's certainly a point of tension for a paladin, now isn't it?

Caesar continues though to maintain his luck, and to take advantage of every little thing, to begin adding up to victory. The thing that astonishes me about Caesar, and this is one of the reasons that he is always victorious, is that he is always seeing the opportunities, and exploiting them ruthlessly. There is no device, no strategy, no exploit, no atrocity, no matter how daring, how dangerous, how savage, or how difficult, that he will not pursue if it will lead to victory. Lesser commanders don't do this, and that is why often even when lesser commanders have better position, more equipment, more troops overall, or any number of other advantages, they still end up losing to Caesar, or a commander like him. Pompey doesn't think like Caesar, and so he will not exploit the same opportunities that Caesar will. You can see it in the whole way Pompey operates in his command. Pompey is like an old, regal father playing a grand and noble game, whereas Caesar is like a young, hungry lion, leaping from the shadows, and climbing the mountaintop to the ultimate victory. Very different personalities, and the limitations of Pompey can be seen when compared to Caesar's more ruthless exploitation of every resource, and of every opportunity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Maldur (Aug 22, 2002)

"whereas Caesar is like a young, hungry lion"

What age was Caesar at the time? It seems that he wasn't really young and inexperienced by then. He was angry it seems, eager to get this over with. I feel he wants to stop the civil war and take his (in his own eyes) rightful place as ruler of Rome.

In assigning D&D classes to Caesar, a large amount of levels Bard seem appropriate, as do levels of Aristocrat and/or Fighter.

I don’t think there is a place for paladins in the roman war-machine. Making your own (moral) decisions is not done. The "zum bevel" mentality, following orders completely and totaly, seems the norm. NO exeptions! Paladins is a more romantic view started in  the late Middleages. Not from times where the brutality of the battlefield is the norm, iso the etiquete of the tourney-grounds.

The paladin is something from stories not from real-life!
( great stories, but just stories)


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## mmadsen (Aug 23, 2002)

> In assigning D&D classes to Caesar, a large amount of levels Bard seem appropriate, as do levels of Aristocrat and/or Fighter.



If we add some of the Bard's abilities (e.g. Inspire Courage) to the Aristocrat, I think we have a useful class that represents a talented leader of men.


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## jgbrowning (Aug 23, 2002)

*caeser class*

not to rain on anyones parade but caeser would have no magical (supernatural) abilities.  there wern't any.

you'd need to make skills a lot more important.

just my .002$

joe b.


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## SHARK (Aug 23, 2002)

Greetings!

Well, indeed, if we were to stat up Caesar for a non-fantastic, historical simulation game, then of course Caesar wouldn't have anything magical.

However, since we are playing D&D, and if we were to translate Caesar into a D&D world, there would be some justification for configuring magical properties and abilities. In addition, if one were to assume or be inspired by the various aspects of Roman mythology, then there is also ample room for justification of mystical properties or attributes. The Romans, after all, *believed* in the mystical and the magical. They believed that different people, especially emperors and great heroes, were blessed by the gods. It seems to me that Caesar could fall into either or both categories.

So, seeing that we are also discussing how Caesar's Legion might inspire or contribute to our D&D games, feel free to play with and speculate on a mystical Caesar appropriate for various D&D games.

mmadsen, that's some good ideas. Bard abilities combined with Aristocrat, and perhaps some Fighter levels would seem to work quite well.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: caeser class*



> not to rain on anyones parade but caeser would have no magical (supernatural) abilities.



There's a reason I didn't think the spellcasting Bard fit Caesar well, but, _really_, what D&D ability could possibly fit Caesar better than Inspire Courage?  Certainly Inspire Courage doesn't have to be a supernatural ability.


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## mmadsen (Aug 23, 2002)

> If we add some of the Bard's abilities (e.g. Inspire Courage) to the Aristocrat, I think we have a useful class that represents a talented leader of men.



By the way, the Star Wars Noble basically does this -- as does the Rokugan Courtier.


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## Maldur (Aug 23, 2002)

I wasn't really refering to the spellcasting bard, more the use of speech and retoric to inspire/lead/rally his troops.

So Im agreeing with you on this 

That crummy "I did everything right but you messed up " speech was a major bad roll.


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## mmadsen (Aug 24, 2002)

> Just wiped that little town off the face of the map. No UN to complain to there. Oh, wait...Rome was the UN...ah, well, it certainly was a different time, then, wasn't it?



I'm sure there are many groups who feel the same way about the US and the UN.


> It is interesting that in towns later encountered, they opened their gates, and cooperated with Caesar. Who says that being ruthless doesn't gain cooperation?



For ruthlessness to work, I think you have to convince your enemies that "that was a mere fraction of my power!"  If, on the other hand, you mount a surprise attack against a powerful enemy, you're just going to fill the giant with a terrible resolve to crush you.


> If you have a paladin order a town "Plundered" so that he can make an example of the town in order to achieve a greater strategic cooperation with nearby towns through the campaign, that isn't going to feel good, or very "chivalrous"--but then again, I have often argued that many of the philosophies that surround paladins are not the ideas of the original ruthless and noble, Knight-Templars, which paladins are clearly based off of...



You could easily run a campaign where Paladins resembled Mujahideen more than 1950's radio-drama cowboys or superheroes.


> Such, it seems, where much of the philososphy comes from, rather from the real mud, slaughter, and difficult decisions that have to be made by everyone involved in ferocious war that is unchained in the real world, rather than the tournament world.



The Arthurian tales and their examples of chivalry were as much for the ladies of the court as for the knights.


> What if there were Lawful Good paladins serving in such an army, where the army's supreme commander--in this case Caesar--gives the order for you--a junior commander, and a paladin--to "Plunder the city!" The men under your command--including you--are to rape, plunder, and slaughter the entire population. That's certainly a point of tension for a paladin, now isn't it?



I wouldn't expect a true Lawful Good Paladin to last long in any military.


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## mmadsen (Aug 25, 2002)

The victorious troops drank the town dry, with, according to Appian, Caesar's German cavalrymen in particular ending up disgustingly drunk.  Germans, in general, Appian remarked, had no head for drink, especially wine.  A similar observation would be made by Tacitus a century later.

Oh, those Germans and their fire-water!  

Seriously, does every culture decide that others can't handle their liquor?  Or were the German barbarians at that time less accustomed to alcohol than the Romans?


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## Maldur (Aug 25, 2002)

The german troops were probably accustomed to drinking low alcohol beer, so when you get your hands on good, strong wine and start drinking in the same tempo as you drink beer... 

or the germans were just very roudy drunks instead of the disiplined drunkiness of the legions  besides the german mercenairies probably didn't have the harsh disiplinairy measures when they showed up late at guard duty the next morning.
As a legionair you just could not get "really" drunk, your expected to perform at a certain level the next morning.


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## SHARK (Aug 25, 2002)

Greetings!


Chapter XI: The Battle of Pharsalus
____________________________________________________
Pages 120-onward.

"Now, as Centurion Crastinus stood with his men of the 10th Legion in the front line, a familiar voice away to his right called him by name. "'What hopes for victory, Gaius Crastinus? What grounds for encouragement?'"

The centurion's head whipped around, to see Caesar riding along the front line towards him accompanied by his staff officers.

"'Victory will be yours, Caesar,"' said Crastinus. According to Plutarch, he reached out his right hand toward his general in a form of salute, adding, "'You will conquer gloriously today."'

"As he returned to his position on the right wing, Caesar passed Centurion Crastinus once again. "'General,"' Crastinus called out as he went by, "'today I shall earn your gratitude, either dead or alive."'

Caesar acknowledged him with a wave and cantered on.
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Wow! I can feel the heat of the sun on my shoulder, and smell the scent of sweat and horses as the troops prepare for battle. I can imagine the swearing, the jostling for position, the surge of nervousness before battle. The men licking their lips as they stare out into the battlefield, readying themselves for the action to come.

I can imagine Crastinus looking up at Caesar as he rides by, and calling out to him. What a Centurion! He's been fighting with Caesar for so long now! I can imagine the group of raw, young recruits looking to their Centurion with awe! Caesar seems very easy-going, and even paternal and rugged, as he talks so smoothly and casually with the Centurion.

____________________________________________________
Quote:

"The entire charge came to a stop. For perhaps a minute the Caesarian troops paused in the middle of the wheat field, catching their breath; then, led by Crastinus, they resumed the charge with a mighty roar.

Crastinus threw himself at the shield line, aiming to show his men how to reach over the top of an enemy shield and strike at the face of the soldier on the other side with the point of his sword. As he did, he felt a blow to the side of the head. He never even saw it coming. The strength suddenly drained from his legs. He sagged to his knees. His head was spinning. Dazed, he continued to call out to his men to spur them on.

As he spoke, a legionary of the 1st Legion directly opposite him in the shield line moved his shield six inches to the left, opening a small gap. In a flash he had shoved his sword through the gap with a powerful forward thrust that entered the yelling Gaius Crastinus's open mouth. According to Plutarch, the tip of the blade emerged from the back of Crastinus's neck. The soldier of the 1st withdrew his bloodied sword and swiftly resealed the gap in the shield line. His action had lasted just seconds. No doubt with a crude cheer from the nearby men of the 1st Legion, Centurion Crastinus toppled forward into the shiled in front of him, then slid to the ground."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

You know, I am glad that Caesar crushes Pompey's forces. I liked the old Centurion! I know it happens in war--and this little episode made me reflect on the sadness of Crastinus dying, of the pain, the sudden terror, and his death. What of his dreams, what of his plans? What of his family waiting for his return? Sad. Very sad. Indeed, it pissed me off some, too. I *want* the 10th Legion to make the enemy bleed and pay. The old Centurion is watching! I can imagine his men attacking with a grim ferocity, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## sword-dancer (Aug 25, 2002)

Hello Shark



			
				SHARK said:
			
		

> *Greetings!
> 
> You know, I am glad that Caesar crushes Pompey's forces. I liked the old Centurion! I know it happens in war--and this little episode made me reflect on the sadness of Crastinus dying, of the pain, the sudden terror, and his death. What of his dreams, what of his plans? What of his family waiting for his return? Sad. Very sad. Indeed, it pissed me off some, too. I *want* the 10th Legion to make the enemy bleed and pay. The old Centurion is watching! I can imagine his men attacking with a grim ferocity, too!
> 
> ...




You didn`t have some germanic ancestorship, the cause of taking the blood price in blood, had a very germanic feel.
What the huns and eeast goths discovered after the king of the westgoths died through an ostgothic spear.
The westgoths let them bleed and pay, with furor.


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## mmadsen (Aug 26, 2002)

> Crastinus threw himself at the shield line, aiming to show his men how to reach over the top of an enemy shield and strike at the face of the soldier on the other side with the point of his sword. As he did, he felt a blow to the side of the head. He never even saw it coming. The strength suddenly drained from his legs. He sagged to his knees. His head was spinning. Dazed, he continued to call out to his men to spur them on.
> 
> As he spoke, a legionary of the 1st Legion directly opposite him in the shield line moved his shield six inches to the left, opening a small gap. In a flash he had shoved his sword through the gap with a powerful forward thrust that entered the yelling Gaius Crastinus's open mouth. According to Plutarch, the tip of the blade emerged from the back of Crastinus's neck. The soldier of the 1st withdrew his bloodied sword and swiftly resealed the gap in the shield line. His action had lasted just seconds. No doubt with a crude cheer from the nearby men of the 1st Legion, Centurion Crastinus toppled forward into the shiled in front of him, then slid to the ground.



That's certainly some vivid imagery!  Again, how do they make high school history so boring when they've got material like this to draw from?


> You know, I am glad that Caesar crushes Pompey's forces....I *want* the 10th Legion to make the enemy bleed and pay. The old Centurion is watching!



The movie practically writes itself!


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## mmadsen (Aug 26, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus*

This is how Divinations _should_ work:

According to both Plutarch and Appian, Pompey had been awakened by a disturbance in his camp in the early hours of that morning: just before the last change of watch, excited sentries had witnessed a fiery-tailed meteor race across the sky from the direction of Caesar's camp and disappear beyond the hills behind their own.  Once awake, Pompey confided to his staff that he'd been dreaming he was adorning the temple of Venus the Victorious at Rome.  Julius Caesar's family claimed descent from the goddess Venus, and Pompey's supporters were delighted by the dream, seeing it as an omen that Pompey soon would be celebrating the defeat of Caesar.  Pompey wasn't so sure; the dream could also be interpreted that he was saluting Caesar as victoy.


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## ExtremeSIMS (Aug 26, 2002)

*Romans, Dark Ages, and Hobgoblins*

The Roman capacity for war was truly impressive, and a reason why Roman tactics are still taught today. Another thing to keep in mind, that most people miss when thinking about war, is the logistical side. The Romans were careful planners, and their ability move these huge armies, and keep them fed and equipped, is perhaps more impressive than battle skills. In today's world, that's similar to Eisenhower's skills versus Patton's.

Not all warmaking skill was lost during the Dark Ages. Keep in mind this is when better ranged weapons and the stirrup were invented. However, the lack of central authority and constant warfare certainly impacted the "skill" of warfare.

Funny, reading the comments here about Shark's hobgoblins. In my world, the hobgoblins are a much bigger threat that any orcish mass. Hobgoblins are more LN, and are just as often mercenaries as they are the typical "hobgoblin horde".


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## mmadsen (Aug 26, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

So Pompey dreams that "he was adorning the temple of Venus the Victorious at Rome".

Unbeknownst to Pompey, the previous evening Caesar had issued as his army's watchword, or password, for August 9, "Venus, Bringer of Victory," quite unaware that Pompey planned to bring on a battle next day.

These details about watchwords seem like adventure seeds:

Polybius tells us the watchword was issued for the next twenty-four hours by the commanding officer just before sunset.  The tribune of the watch then distributed it on wax sheets to his legion's guard sergeants, who in turn passed it on to the duty sentries in a strictly regulated process that required the prompt return of the wax sheets....There are several instances of watchwords being hurriedly changed just before a battle in case deserters had passed on the latest watchword to the enemy overnight.


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## jgbrowning (Aug 26, 2002)

*mmadson*

just had a crazy though.  i knew a guy in college called michael madson.  UNO.

could you be the same?

thanks fer yer time.

joe browning


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## mmadsen (Aug 27, 2002)

*Re: mmadson*



> just had a crazy though.  i knew a guy in college called michael madson.  UNO.  could you be the same?  thanks fer yer time.



Well, maybe Michael Madson is out there somewhere, going by "mmads*o*n".  Anyway, no, I didn't go to UNO.  In fact, I'm not sure I know what UNO stands for.  University of New Orleans?


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## mmadsen (Aug 27, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

According to Appian, [Pompey] now told his troops, "We fight for freedom and for homeland, backed by the constitution, our glorious reputation, and so many men of senatorial and equestrian rank, against one man who would pirate supreme power."

After that speech, I'm certainly rooting for Pompey.  By the way, I know next to nothing about the Roman constitution.  Can anyone fill me in?


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## jgbrowning (Aug 27, 2002)

*Re: Re: mmadson*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Well, maybe Michael Madson is out there somewhere, going by "mmadson".  Anyway, no, I didn't go to UNO.  In fact, I'm not sure I know what UNO stands for.  University of New Orleans? *




yah, oh well.    had stranger things happen to me before... he was also deeply into roman history..  yep. new orleans

joe b.


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## mmadsen (Aug 27, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

The tale of the tape:

Pompey, conqueror of the East, fifty-seven, a former young achiever who had made history in his twenties, a multimillionaire, an excellent military organizer, a master strategist, coming off a victory, with the larger army.  Caesar, conqueror of the West, who had celebrated his fifty-second birthday only three weeks before in the month that would eventually bear his name, who had been nearly forty before he made his first military mark, an original tactician and engineering genius with a mastery of detail, a commander with dash, the common touch, luck, and the smaller but more experienced army.

It's sad for Rome that these two meet on the battlefield:

Plutarch was to lament that, combined, two such famous, talented Roman generals and their seventy thousand men could have conquered the old enemy Parthia for Rome, could have marched unassailed all the way to India.  Instead, here they were, bent on destroying each other.


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## ExtremeSIMS (Aug 27, 2002)

*Re: Chapter II -- Impatient for Glory*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Caesar took a personal interest in the appointment of the legion's six tribunes, all young colonels in their late teens and twenties..."
> 
> Young colonels in their late teens?  And here I thought a lieutenant in his early twenties was in over his head...
> ...



*

Originally, colonels were "column leaders," more prized for their physical attributes than their leadership.  Maybe that explains their relative youth.*


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## SHARK (Aug 27, 2002)

Greetings!

Chapter XI: The Battle of Pharsalus
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Plutarch was to lament that, combined, two such famous, talented Roman generals and their seventy thousand men could have conquered the old enemy Parthia for Rome, could have marched unassailed all the way to India. Instead, here they were, bent on destroying each other."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Indeed, I have to agree with Plutarch. Pompey, like Caesar, was a great hero, and a brilliant commander. Rome loses much all around by having these two great commanders fight, regardless of who the victor is, really.

As an added thought, in my view, despite Rome's justified position as the greatest empire in history, Rome often wasted far too much blood, talent, and gold on frequent civil wars and in-fighting between various generals and would-be emperors. Should Rome have been thoroughly united, and embraced a smooth system of imperial election, the mind is boggled by what Rome could have accomplished! As it was, it is a fine testimony to the efficiency and skill of the Imperial beuracracy and the skill of the Legions that Rome was able to endure within the pale of greatness despite what the generals did, and the suffering of various civil wars.

One can only imagine what Rome might have been able to do!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Maldur (Aug 27, 2002)

> It seems that the camp's commander, General Afranius, had already escaped by this time, spiriting away Pompey's son Gnaeus, probably as prearranged with Pompey.





It seems Pompey prepared even for defeat.
I wonder how much he believed his interpretation of his dream?


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## mmadsen (Aug 27, 2002)

> Should Rome have been thoroughly united, and embraced a smooth system of imperial election, the mind is boggled by what Rome could have accomplished!



If Caesar had lost and Rome had remained a Republic, you mean?


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## Maldur (Aug 27, 2002)

Our keyboards might have look VERY different, and shark might have served time in the 42nd naval legion


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 27, 2002)

>>>>>>>>>
One can only imagine what Rome might have been able to do!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

   Not much I think. You must remember that in counterbalance to their amazing technical and military skills was a society and political system that was becoming ever more corrupt and rotten. The slave system was a major "delaying" factor too. 

   If they somehow transitioned out of the senatorial/cesar power center arrangement and the slave based economy then they might have gone further.  Rome first boosted in power when they deposed a Monarch and became a Republic... in later ages they were slowly going back to old ways. 

   Their strongest points were actually their Law system and Urban development. Corruption tended to weaken evermore the Law benefit and too much reliance on slaves made the urban population largely unemployed or under employed.  Politics too spoiled the "system".


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## mmadsen (Aug 28, 2002)

> Our keyboards might have look VERY different...



Why would our keyboards look different if Rome had remained a republic?  We use the Latin alphabet.


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## Maldur (Aug 28, 2002)

ok, number are abuot the only difference  ( maybe the $) 

but I think SHARK meant a bit more than : just rome staying a republic.

What if rome echanged their internal structure in such a way , that the energy used in internal strife could have been used in other things. What if Pompey and Ceasar worked together! Might India or persia be roman as well? Would the roman empire have existed in the 15th century or the 20th?


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## mmadsen (Aug 28, 2002)

> but I think SHARK meant a bit more than : just rome staying a republic.



I was teasing SHARK a bit, because he seemed to want a benevolent dictator (like Caesar) leading Rome without opposition.  I suggested a Republic under the Senate, like they had before Caesar seized power.

I don't know that much Roman history, but that is when things _really_ started to go downhill, right?  Once it became an empire?


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 28, 2002)

Whats your definition of downhill ?  Corruption ?  Too much politics ? 

   I think the empire started some very big expansions of the empire.  Is military sucess uphill ?  I dont think it was the change to empire that started the downfall of Rome itself... many other factors.


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## mmadsen (Aug 28, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

They were easy enough to spot...they wore a transverse crest on their helmets.  It made them easy to identify for their own men, and marked them as targets for the opposition.  Centurions were the key to an army's success in battle.

Anyone here remember _Battlestar Galactica_?  The evil robot soldiers, the Cylons, were silver.  The "boss" Cylons were gold.  They were the Cylon Centurions.  My older brother's observation: "Cylons take one blaster hit to kill.  Cylon Centurions take two."  If you watch the show, it's true.  Very d20, isn't it?


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## mmadsen (Aug 29, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

The 10th Legion's six tribunes were back between the lines.  Young, rich, spoiled members of the Equestrian Order, few had the respect of the enlisted men.  From later events it is likely that one of the 10th's tribunes, Gaius Avienus, had done nothing but complain since they set sail from Brindisi that Caesar had forced him to leave all his serants behind.

What's the point of officers again?  Seriously, it's amazing how resilient the institution is, even though everyone knows centurions (i.e. sergeants) are the veterans who know what's going on.


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## mmadsen (Aug 29, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

...he [Labienus] led his German and Gallic cavalry around the perimeter of the fighting and charged toward the exposed flank and rear of the 10th Legion....Trumpets sounded, and the reserve cohorts of the fourth line suddenly jumped to their feet and dashed forward behind their standards, slamming into the unsuspecting cavalrymen before they even saw them.

Again, the movie practically writes itself -- and this does read like a movie script, doesn't it?  Troops wait in hiding for the special signal, trumpets blare, and they crush the flanking cavalry!

The men of the reserve cohorts had been given explicit instructions not to throw their javelins but to use them instead like spears, thrusting them overarm up into the faces of the cavalrymen.

Doesn't Caesar know that using a javelin in melee incurs a -4 proficiency penalty? 

According to Plutarch, Caesar said, when issuing the order for the tactic, "Those fine young dancers won't endure the steel shining in their eyes.  They'll fly to save their handsome faces."

And so said the Orc general to his troops before the charge of the High Elf cavalry.

Now Caesar's shock troops mingled with the surprised Germans and Gauls at close quarters, pumping their javelins as instructed, taking out eyes, causing horrific facial injuries and fatalities with every stroke.

Gruesome!

The congested cavalry had come to a dead stop, compressed between the rear ranks of the 10th and the reserve cohorts.  There were so many of them there was nowhere for the riders to go; they merely provided sitting targets for the men of the reserve cohorts as they swarmed among them.

As many as a thousand of Labienus's best cavalrymen were killed in this counterstroke.

A thousand cavalry killed in that one maneuver!  The rest fled.


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## Maldur (Aug 29, 2002)

Immediately you can see the merit of a enclosed helmet.

Its a very nasty image


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## mmadsen (Aug 29, 2002)

> Immediately you can see the merit of a enclosed helmet.
> Its a very nasty image



Of course, if you ever wear an enclosed helmet outside while marching in the sun, you quickly see the merit of an open helmet: you don't suffocate.  Suffocate, or get your eyes poke out -- what a gruesome choice to make!


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 29, 2002)

With over 7 pages of posts, you've convinced me to order this.  Curse you people! Stealing funds away from my d20 account.


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## Maldur (Aug 29, 2002)

Joe, dont feel bad, its a great book.

The funny thing is everyone reading it picks up different things:

mmadsen quote the intresting passages
SHARK compares the legions to the marine corp 
And I just throw in ( for me ) usefull observations about the subjects at hand.
Most other people give extra info, from outside sources. giving it a larger context.

I hope to read your ideas about the book soon.


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## mmadsen (Aug 29, 2002)

> With over 7 pages of posts, you've convinced me to order this.



My work here is done.  Let's pack it up, boys! 

Seriously though, I hope you enjoy it, and, like Maldur, I hope to hear your thoughts on it soon.  I'll try to keep quoting the good stuff.


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## SHARK (Aug 29, 2002)

Greetings!

Indeed, exposure of such a fine book, as well as exploring our learning and interpretations and applications of the book historically, and applied to D&D, is what this Reading Group Thread is all about! Welcome!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Aug 29, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

As Caesar's cavalry chased Labienus and his troopers all the way to the hills, Pompey's left flank was exposed.  With a cheer, Caesar's reserve cohorts spontaneously rushed forward to the attack in the wake of their victory over the cavalry.

Bad news for Pompey.

All that stood in their way were Pompey's archers and slingers....The slingers were armed merely with their sling-shots.

Major, major pet peeve here.  The slingers were armed with _slings_.  They're not sling-shots.  David did not pull a sling-shot out of his overalls' pocket to kill Goliath.  He wasn't one of the Little Rascals.  Aarrgghh!  

Sorry.


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## mmadsen (Aug 29, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

Now Caesar issued another order.  His red banner dropped.  The trumpets of the first and second infantry lines sounded "Charge."

I still love the imagery.

Ahead, to the surprise of Crastinus and his comrades, Pompey's front line didn't budge.  Pompey's men were under orders to stand still and receive Caesar's infantry charge, instead of themselves charging at Caesar's running men, as was the norm in battles of the day.  According to Caesar, this tactic had been suggested to Pompey by Gaius Triarius, one of his naval commanders.  Pompey, lacking confidence in his infantry and anxious to give them an edge in the contest, had grabbed at the idea, which was intended to make Caesar's troops run twice as far as usual and so arrive out of breath at the Pompeian line.

It sounds pretty clever, frankly -- the kind of thing I'd expect Caesar to come up with.  On the other hand...

Caesar was later scathing of the tactic.  He was to write that the running charge fired men's enthusiasm for battle, and that general ought to encourage this, not repress it.

It may fire enthusiasm, but is there a strong advantage to charging on foot?  Against archers and slingers it makes good sense -- you don't want to remain in their kill zone for long -- but infantry vs. infantry?  There must be, since they always do charge...

In fact, Pompey's tactic did have something going for it, as his troops would present a solid barrier of interlocked shield against Caesar's puffing, disorderly men, who had to break formation to run to the attack.  It may have been effective against inexperienced troops, but in the middle of the battlefield Centurion Crastinus and his fellow centurions of the first rank drew their charging cohorts to a halt.  The entire charge came to a stop.  For perhaps a minute the Caesarian troops paused in the middle of the wheat field, catching their breath; then, led by Crastinus, they resumed the charge with a mighty roar.

It seems that Pompey should have added one more element to his plan.  Either time his own counter-charge to hit Caesar's men just as they run out of breath, or have sufficient archers and slingers on hand to barrage them as they try to cover twice the normal distance.

Maybe the archers and slingers would've pulled through for him if they hadn't been cut down moments earlier...


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## mmadsen (Aug 30, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

SHARK already quoted this passage, but it's good:

Crastinus threw himself at the shield line, aiming to show his men how to reach over the top of an enemy shield and strike at the face of the soldier on the other side with the point of his sword. As he did, he felt a blow to the side of the head. He never even saw it coming. The strength suddenly drained from his legs. He sagged to his knees. His head was spinning. Dazed, he continued to call out to his men to spur them on.

As he spoke, a legionary of the 1st Legion directly opposite him in the shield line moved his shield six inches to the left, opening a small gap. In a flash he had shoved his sword through the gap with a powerful forward thrust that entered the yelling Gaius Crastinus's open mouth. According to Plutarch, the tip of the blade emerged from the back of Crastinus's neck. The soldier of the 1st withdrew his bloodied sword and swiftly resealed the gap in the shield line. His action had lasted just seconds. No doubt with a crude cheer from the nearby men of the 1st Legion, Centurion Crastinus toppled forward into the shiled in front of him, then slid to the ground.

I feel like my character died.  It was a good death though.


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## Maldur (Aug 30, 2002)

> Caesar's reserve cohorts spontaneously rushed forward to the attack




Doesn't sound very coordinated. Spontaniously charging? Its like they are caught up in the rush of victory (after slaugtering the cavalry).



> but infantry vs. infantry? There must be, since they always do charge...




They all did carry javelins, so they could attack at range. And to damage the enemy you had to be close. Also if you manage to bowl over several men, you create a gap in the shieldwall. Also you want the adrenaline pumping so running around might be good for the energy and strenght you might need.


ps.

SHARK, the comment of you comparing the legions to the marines is not to be rude ( I now realize it could be taken that way), its a trait commen among (ex) military people to do so, I hang round with several (former) infantrymen ( including dutch marines) and noticed this in all ( esp when talking about military history and/or games).


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## SHARK (Aug 30, 2002)

Greetings!

Hey Maldur! No offense was taken my friend! I know I do--I can't help it, really. The Marines are such a huge, searing experience, it serves to influence us for life. My commander, Captain Cheatham, explained:

 "Your experience as a Marine will mark you for life. Once a Marine, always a Marine! You have joined a brotherhood, and the experiences you have endured have changed you forever in so many ways. Wherever you go in life, whatever you do after you leave active service, you will notice that the Marines have changed you. You will forever be different in what you value, how you think, how you do things. You have learned the Marine ways. Always remember to represent us with pride and loyalty. No matter where we go, or what dangers we may face, we can face them with courage and honour, because we have our brothers with us. Like our brother Marines who have gone on to Heaven before us, we continue the proud traditions of the Marines. We are proud to claim the title of United States Marine! Carry On gentlemen!" (paraphrase)

He spoke to us often on different occasions, about all kinds of things really. This was one such occasion where he was adressing several different questions about the Marine Corps at the same time. Good stuff! I imagine that your friends maldur are very zealous in their speech and memories? It doesn't surprise me, especially for the Dutch Marines. Marine units everywhere, though different in size, training, and history, have in common a ferocious *Esprit de Corps*, which stays with you for life--whether you are active duty or not. Be sure to toast a good ale to them for me, will you? They deserve it, from one Marine to another!

Mmadsen: Indeed, I hated it when Crastinus died! I was angry. I wanted Caesar to crush Pompey! Crastinus--what a fine man, heh? He served so loyally, so courageously, and then dies in the ferocious fighting while trying to help the younger marines. It just is sad. Great though, in a heroic way!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Aug 30, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

Without a word, he [Pompey] turned his horse around and galloped back toward the camp on the hill.  A handful of startled staff rode after him.

Plutarch says that as Pompey reached the camp's praetorian gate, looking pale and dazed, he called to the centurions in charge, "Defend the camp strenuously if there should be any reverse in the battle. I'm going to check the guard on the other gates."

Instead of going around the other three gates of the camp as he'd said, he went straight to his headquarters tent, and there he remained.

Sad.  Pompey has never lost before, and it obviously breaks him.  The image of a great general moping in his tent as his men die, it's...sad.


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## Maldur (Sep 1, 2002)

It seems he could not believe he lost.



> "What! Into the very camp?"




As his cloak is taken, and he with five others escape through the backgate, pompey is a broken man, I can imagine he is almost zombie-like when his comrades usher him away.

Very sad.


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## Maldur (Sep 1, 2002)

Strangely enough. 
When I imagine these stories of battle, old hollywood movies provide the images. Ben Hur, Spartacus etc.  These pictures about the roman empire are the footage I compose the images from. The newer movies dont have that effect  (like gladiator). First impressions are strong impresions.

Funny idea


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## Rashak Mani (Sep 1, 2002)

Maybe "Gladiator" showed a kind of underworld of Roman times that isnt exactly beautiful ?  We History buffs always tend to overlook the nasty side... and focus on the glory part.

  After reading Timeline by Michael Crichton I was kind of numbed by how violent and dirty the Middle ages were. Good gritty description of life back at that time... nothing close to RPGs or Romantics visions of medieval. 

   For me Gladiator marked me more thou... Ben Hur was an awful long time ago !!


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## Maldur (Sep 1, 2002)

I wasn't commenting on the validity of the images my mind cooks up, more where they came from. threal romans were probably not as "technicolor" as these images are 

As I said first impresions....


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## Rashak Mani (Sep 1, 2002)

I was speculating on why your "memory" chooses certain images and not others. Yes first impressions tend to stick firmer. The validity of any Hollywood movie is very very suspect. 

   Also did you know Ben Hurs central theme is the Gay love of his with that roman ?!  I was amazed when I saw a program about "covert" portrayal of gay themes in hollywood movies.  Watch the scene where they meet again after a long time. It seems very clearly old lovers meeting again and rejoicing about "good old times".    

 Also I was prodding the guys who seemed all fired up with war stories and forget the dirty parts...     All this story of glory without gory. The great gaulish chieftain Vercingetorix said something like this:  "The romans make a desert and then they call it Pax Romana."


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## mmadsen (Sep 1, 2002)

> When I imagine these stories of battle, old hollywood movies provide the images. Ben Hur, Spartacus etc.  These pictures about the roman empire are the footage I compose the images from. The newer movies dont have that effect  (like gladiator). First impressions are strong impresions.



So do your "mental movie" Romans all wear leather armor?  And never steel mail?


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## sword-dancer (Sep 2, 2002)

Maldur said:
			
		

> *
> 
> . *




Mingle another time in this thread, maybe i could explain this scene a bit?


> Doesn't sound very coordinated. Spontaniously charging? Its like they are caught up in the rush of victory (after slaugtering the cavalry).




It could be that the leaders of this troops (Centurions or Legates 
 most likely), saw the needs of the situation and acted accordingly, without waitng for orders, that could come to late if they came.
Initiative is a valuable attrribute for an soldier.

In a battle with the nevier, 
"the enemy cam so fast upon, that Cäsar had must done 3 things at once.
Rise the battle flag for the battle alarm, trompeter give order to sound their trumpets, to call the the men whoi fortified or such things, rally the troops in battle order and order to attack.
But in this Situation 2 things were helpful, The training and experience of troops, who knows from earlier battles what has to be done without commands, and that the Legats had from caesär the order to stay by their legions. When they saw the enemy so near and so fast, they didn`t wait for Caesars commands, but took initiative on their own.....so few time the legionaries had, they couldn`t put on their helms...everyone took position where he comes from fortifyingand saw the first Standart, so that noboy lost time to search for his own unit.""
Sorurce 
Die Legionen des Augustus  
Der römische Soldat im archäologischen Experiment
Prof. Marcus Junkelmann

Hope this helps a bit.


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## mmadsen (Sep 3, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

The men of the 1st, fighting now on three sides and outnumbered, were in danger of being surrounded and cut to pieces.  No orders came from Pompey -- he'd disappeared.  None came from their divisional commander, the useless General Domitius....Their pride and their discipline intact, the 1st Legion began to pull back in perfect order, step by step, harried all the way by the 10th Legion and the reserve cohorts.

All of Pompey's veteran legions pull back in an orderly fashion, but the young soldiers of the three new legions in the center begin to waver.

Now Caesar issued another order.  Again his red banner dropped.  Again trumpets sounded "Charge."  Now the men of his third line, who had been standing, waiting impatiently to join the fray, rushed forward with a cheer.  As the fresh troops of the third line arrived on the scene, the men of the first and second lines gave way and let them through.  The impact of this second charge shattered what cohesion remained in Pompey's center.  Raw recruits threw down their shields, turned, and fled toward the camp on the hill they'd left that morning.  Auxiliaries did the same, and the entire center dissolved.

Red banners, trumpets, and a charge that shatters the enemy line (and enemy morale).  Great imagery!


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## Maldur (Sep 3, 2002)

The ordered retreat of the 1st, and several earlier examples (like the surrendered and slaugtered youngsters in the harbour, while the veteran squads fought themselves to freedom) show the value of veteran legions over new recruited ones. No wonder Ceasar is doing everything he can to keep them in the field ( iso discharging them).  

It also seems that Ceasar is a vastly superiour general. He has time to adapt his plans on the field and he can react to changes/oppertunities. Whereas Pompey seems to have made up his mind ( that he lost) before the battle even started.


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## mmadsen (Sep 3, 2002)

> The ordered retreat of the 1st, and several earlier examples (like the surrendered and slaugtered youngsters in the harbour, while the veteran squads fought themselves to freedom) show the value of veteran legions over new recruited ones.



High-level Fighters really are that much better than low-level Fighters -- not necessarily because they have ten times as many Hit Points though.


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## Maldur (Sep 3, 2002)

wow fast reply

I seems like better will-saves are very important and the trust in and trust of the officers.


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## mmadsen (Sep 3, 2002)

> I seems like better will-saves are very important and the trust in and trust of the officers.



I think we can make the case that a more "realistic" Fighter might trade away big Hit Dice for better Will and Ref Saves and a few more Skill Points, and his Bonus Feat List should include Courage (+4 to all Fear Saves).  A true veteran might also have Back to the Wall (+2 to-hit and AC when below 1/4 hp).

(Back to the Wall and Courage are from _Ravenloft_.)


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## mmadsen (Sep 3, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

Behind them, many of the men flooding through the gates began looting their own camp.  It seems that the camp's commander, General Afranius, had already escaped by this time, spiriting away Pompey's son Gnaius, probably as prearranged with Pompey....With fighting going on inside the camp, young General Marcus Favonius found Pompey in his headquarters tent....Now, horrified by the state in which he found his hero, the young general tried to rouse his commander from his stupor.  "General, the enemy are in the camp!  You must fly!"

Pompey looked at him oddly.  All authorities agree on Pompey's words at the news: "What!  Into the very camp?"

Again, very sad.


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## mmadsen (Sep 4, 2002)

*Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*

Here's where it might turn into a D&D adventure:

Favonius and Pompey's chief secretary, Philip, a Greek freedman, helped their commander to his feet, removed their general's identifying scarlet cloak, replacing it with a plain one, then ushered him to the door.  Five horses were waiting outside the tent....

The five riders galloped north toward the twon of Larisa, whose people were sypathetic toward Pompey.  On the road, they encountered a group of thirty cavalryment.  As Pompey's generals drew their swords to defend their leader they recognized the cavalry as one of Labienus's squadrons, intact, unscathed, and lost.  With the troopers gladly joining their commander to provide a meager bodyguard, the thirty-five riders hurried on.

Sometimes your reinforcements are enemies in disguise.  Sometimes the enemy cavalry patrol is your own lost unit.  War is strange sometimes.


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## Maldur (Sep 4, 2002)

Pompeys troops were not so fortunate, Ceasar cathes up and surrounds them, without water on a hill.

he then secures the nearest water and just waits. Not wanting to risk his troops assaulting several veteran legions on a hill.

Those veterans were impressive as Ceasar is obviously pressed for time ( he promised his legions discharges)


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## mmadsen (Sep 5, 2002)

*Chapter XII -- The Sour Taste of Victory*

As Maldur has already pointed out, Caesar surrounded Pompey's troops and deprived them up water.

At dawn on August 10, Pompey's troops on the hill came down to Caesar, lay down their arms, then prostrated themselves before him and begged for their lives.  Caesar told them he would spare them all and instructed his troops to treat the prisoners leniently...

That's how we'd expect fellow Roman soldiers to be treated -- but I guess only battle-hardened veterans earn such respect.


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## Rashak Mani (Sep 6, 2002)

Treatment of their own soldiers transgressions and of "prisoners" seems to vary according to the whims of the  commander.  Doesnt seem to have a pre defined POW rules.


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## Maldur (Sep 6, 2002)

Its more like : veterans are valuable and dangerous, so we leave them alive. I ( ceasar) can use them later, or lose to many of my own veterans when I fight them.

Newbies are worthless and undissiplined so we dont bother to keep them alive.


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## mmadsen (Sep 8, 2002)

*Chapter XII -- The Sour Taste of Victory (continued)*

To his astonishment, tribunes now came to Caesar to say that the men of the Spanish legions refused to march another step for him....They wanted their overdue discharge, they wanted the bonus he'd been promising his legions for eighteen months, said by Suetonius to be as much as twenty thousand sesterces a man, a fortune for legionaries with a base pay of nine hundred sesterces a year.

What's shocking is that Caesar is shocked by this.  He promises great rewards if they fight one last battle for him, they fight that one last battle, and then he's surprised that they want their rewards, and they want to go home.

Yet he was a great leader...


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## mmadsen (Sep 9, 2002)

*Chapter XII -- The Sour Taste of Victory (continued)*

About thirty-seven years of age, Brutus was a handsome and erudite senator with much influence among his peers as the nephew of Cato the Younger and also because of his natural talents and a winning personality.  His mother was Servilia, Cato's sister.  Years before, Servilia had fallen in love with Julius Caesar when both were only teenagers, she being a young widow at the time.  Their relationship ended when she remarried, but before long it was apparent she was pregnant.  Many classical authors were to write that when Marcus was born Caesar felt sure the boy was his.

This is becoming a soap opera.  There's a certain Oedipal allure to the thought that Brutus was Caesar's son... 

While Caesar was only fifteen when Brutus was born it's not impossible that they were father and son.  Romans started their sex lives early -- females could legally marry at twelve, while males officially came of age in their fifteenth year.

So Caesar's with Servilia when he's 14-15, yet she's already a young widow?  Wild.  And we pretend teens are asexual children until 18...

Whatever the biological facts, for the rest of his days Caesar treated Brutus like a son.

Unrequited paternal love?


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## Maldur (Sep 9, 2002)

Or preparing an heir to the empire! Or backup for when the ride got rough??


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## Henry (Sep 9, 2002)

*Re: Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *...The entire charge came to a stop.  For perhaps a minute the Caesarian troops paused in the middle of the wheat field, catching their breath; then, led by Crastinus, they resumed the charge with a mighty roar.
> *




There's something almost comical in the imagery of that, frankly.


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## SHARK (Sep 11, 2002)

Greetings!

Chapter XIII--The Murder of Pompey The Great
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Colonel Septimius drew his sword, stepped forward, and before any of Pompey's companions could prevent him, plunged it into the general. As Pompey fell forward, General Achillas and Centurion Salvius slid their swords from their scabbards and slit the throats of Pompey's centurions; then they, too, struck Pompey. A woman's scream echoed across the water--Cornelia had witnessed it all. Still alive, Pompey dragged his scarlet cloak over his head, so that his face was hidden from spectators in his dying moments."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

This is sad...Pompey was a great hero, and a fine general. He deserved to live, or if die he must, it should have been in battle. This is tragic. What a way to end. The Egyptians cheered even. 

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Maldur (Sep 12, 2002)

What strikes me is that General Achillas and Centurion Salvius almost casually kill the centurions before aiding in slaying Pompey. The centurions were unimportant but to make sure Pompey stayed dead that WAS important. Alaso the fact that Pompey covered his face?  Is it a roman thing to die with your face covered/in private?

Good to have you back SHARK, What have you been up to?


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## SHARK (Sep 12, 2002)

Greetings!

Pompey's death was sad. Indeed, Maldur, the Centurions that they killed seemed like a casual afterthought, huh? However, Pompey was very important to kill. They made sure he died. 

Pompey covering his face--indeed, _Dignitas_, was a prime Roman virtue, so preserving one's _Dignitas_, for a Roman, especially a powerful General and member of the Equestrian class like Pompey, it would be very important. Thus, he sought to cover his face so that his enemies would not gain the pleasure of watching him die. Romans took honour and dignity very seriously. Many Romans would fall on their swords when disgraced, as well. True, not all embraced these concepts consistently, but they were cultural values that were taught from a young age to every Roman, and they were virtues that every Roman was expected to embrace and observe.

I have been very busy with work and school my friend! What have you been doing? Feel free to write me privately Maldur, ok? It would be great to chat with you.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Maldur (Sep 12, 2002)

I would say that Pompeys death is not really sad, it's more anticlimactic.

He deserved to die in battle or something, not butchered like he is now. Or Ceasar should have done it himself, His nemesis deserved a more personal touch. ( that sounded worse than I meant).


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## Maldur (Sep 13, 2002)

> The egyptians proudly informed him[Caesar] of Pompey's inglorious fate. He refused to look at Pompey's severed head when it was presented to him by the egyptians.




Again the Romans Dignity?



> Some classical authors say that Caesar cried at the meanness of Pompey's end. Perhaps he did. Nowhere, in any account of Caesar's life, is there any suggestion that h'd wanted Pompey dead.




That reinforces one of my earlier questions. Caesar could easily have seen Pompey as a worthy adversary. Not worthy of a inglorious death.



> He merely wanted to remove an obstacle to achieving his ambitions.




That also reinforces an earlier idea I had. Caesar wants to rule it all. Ambition and vanity make a dangerous combination as this civil war can not have been a good thing for the roman republic.


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## SHARK (Sep 13, 2002)

Greetings!

Roman Dignity indeed, Maldur! Yeah, Pompey could have been even officially executed, and it would have had more dignity than a squad of assassins hacking him to death under the pretext of deception!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Sep 18, 2002)

*Chapter XIII -- The Murder of Pompey the Great*

The last that the young, beautiful Cornelia had heard, Pompey was about to complete the defeat of Caesar.  So when a fearful messenger knocked on the door of her villa at Mitilini with the news that her husband had arrived in the harbor -- with just a single commandeered round ship and not the fleet of six hundred sleek warships that had sailed for him a week before -- she realized what had happened before she was even told of Pompey's defeat, and fainted with shock.

That would be a shock.  At least he's alive -- still.


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## Maldur (Sep 21, 2002)

> According to Appian, Pompey's remains, either bones or ashes, were buried there on the Pelusium shore, and a memorial built over them inscribed "Rich was this man in temples, but poornow in his tomb."




Im going to Egypt in two weeks, when we visit the shore Ill see if I can find it. ( Im not sure we'll visit the shore, but ill bring some nice pictures anyway)


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## Maldur (Sep 21, 2002)

Chapter XIV The power of a single word.

In this very short chapter, Ceasar uses his skills as a politisian to get the legions ( particullary the 10th) back in line. With the clever use of words, and playing on the sentiments of the legion he gets them back fighting for him.

DnD comment: I would rate this a good succes in diplomacy ( maybe a crit?) combined with a very high Charisma.

What strikes me as odd is the fact that the mutinous legions, do answer the call for assembly? Given the rutal methods of punishment, why would you assemble if there is a big chance 1 in 10 will be beaten to death by his mates?


note: as it is a very short chapter, without any juice bits. I thought to make some comments instead of finding and sharing quotes and observations.


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## optimizer (Sep 24, 2002)

Howdy!

I have a related question -- do the legionaires assemble in full armor and weapons?  If so, then why would a unit submit to decimation if it could fight back?

Thanks.

Mike


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## Maldur (Sep 24, 2002)

Disipline, dignity....and the other 7 legions there!

I dont know could be all kindsa factors.


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## Maldur (Sep 27, 2002)

Eh??? SHARK, MMadsen??  Where are you guys?


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## SHARK (Sep 27, 2002)

Greetings!

Indeed, Maldur, I have returned! I shall have a longer post for a new chapter here in the morning. 

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Oct 6, 2002)

> Eh??? SHARK, MMadsen??  Where are you guys?



I just got back from overseas.  After I recover -- and that might take awhile -- I'll get back to "work" with my commentary.


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## Rashak Mani (Oct 6, 2002)

Shark and Co. for a long time I have wondered about something... how were the provinces of the empire represented politically in Rome ?  Did they "have" senators in the senate ?  Or was it more a issue of sending money and bribing/buying political support for their regional issues ?

   In other words how was regional representation in the Roman Empire ?  After all many outside Rome were given the title of citizen...


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## sword-dancer (Oct 6, 2002)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

>



At this time AFAIk the provinces were administrated by proconsuls(exconsuls) and the taxes were auctionated ti the highest bidder, mostly senatorian or equites(knigths class)
Caesar used the income of spain to pay his debts in Rome.
And from Varus administration of Syria is this quote
"Poor he comes in this rich province, rich he left the poor province"
In other words nothing.
An regular administration, of sorts come with Augustus.
Roman citicens were another matter.


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## mmadsen (Oct 8, 2002)

*Chapter XIII -- The Murder of Pompey the Great (continued)*

Pompey dropped anchor in a shallow bay off Pelusium, on the north-eastern coast of Egypt, on September 28, 48 B.C.  The next day he would celebrate his fifty-eighth birthday.

Maybe I'll feel differently in a few decades, but it sounds like Pompey has lived a rich, full life -- three years longer than Caesar, in fact.

Young Ptolemy XIII, no more than sixteen years of age, had been in conflict with his elder sister Cleopatra for the past few months, and he was camped here at Pelusium with an army of twenty thousand infantry and two thousand cavalry while Cleopatra camped in Syria to the north, trying to gather an army of her own around her.

And you thought _you_ fought with your brothers and sisters -- imagine having armies at your command!  I thought it was bad to give teens fast cars...

News of Pompey's defeat in Thessaly reached Ptolemy before Pompey did.  Knowing that Pompey was on the run, and seeing his pitifully small fleet, the king's advisors decided to turn against Pompey to stay in Julius Caesar's favor.

Pompey's really getting kicked while he's down, isn't he?  Show no fear; dogs can smell fear.

Looking up at Colonel Septimius opposite as the boat moved across the water, Pompey began to frown.  The officer's face was beginning to look familiar.  "Don't I know you, fellow soldier?" Pompey asked.
...
Behind them, Colonel Septimius drew his sword, stepped forward, and before any of Pompey's companions could prevent him, plunged it into the general.  As Pompey fell forward, General Achillas and Centurion Salvius slid their swords from their scabbards and slit the throats of Pompey's centurions; then they, too, struck Pompey.

Sad.

A woman's scream echoed across the water -- Cornelia had witnessed it all.

It just gets worse.

Still alive, Pompey dragged his scarlet cloak over his head, so that his face was hidden from spectators in his dying moments.

I've never been dying at the hands of assassins, but covering my face to maintain my _dignitas_ has never occurred to me as a priority.

As Pompey's two servants watched in terror, Colonel Septimius then stepped up, and wielding his sword like an ax, severed Pompey's head with several blows.  Reaching down with his left hand, he grabbed a handful of his victim's graying hair and lifted the head up for those on shore to see.

Again, it just gets worse.

After a throng of Egyptians had insulted the remains, Philip, his secretary, was left on the beach with his master's naked, bloody corpse.

Why the intense hatred?  The Egyptians don't simply eliminate Pompey; they tear off his head and "insult" his body.  Even Pompey's avowed enemy, Caesar, doesn't want that.


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## mmadsen (Oct 9, 2002)

*Chapter XIV -- The Power of a Single Word*

The second paragraph of Chapter XIV exemplifies why I wish Dando-Collins did _not_ stick to the supposed subject of the book, _Legio X_, and instead gave us all the gory details of Caesar's exploits.  This one paragraph could fill a chapter -- a chapter I'd like to read!

More than a year had passed since they'd seen Caesar riding out of the camp on the plain of Farsala for the last time, in pursuit of Pompey.  He'd spent nine of the past thirteen months in Egypt locked in a life-and-death struggle with the Egyptians, who, after he'd arrived there on October 2, had decided to eliminate him the way they'd eliminated Pompey.  Reacting quickly, Caesar had kidnapped young King Ptolemy.  Joined by Ptolemy's sister and rival Cleopatra, Caesar and his small force had barricaded themselves in part of the royal palace at Alexandria.  Trapped, and with just eight hundred cavalrymen, the nine hundred men of the 6th Legion, and the twenty-three hundred inexperienced legionaries of the 28th, Caesar had battled King Ptolemy's twenty-two thousand troops for months, the contest involving savage street fighting and desperate battles for control of the dock area....

Sounds exciting!  I want more!


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## SHARK (Oct 9, 2002)

Greetings!

So true mmadsen, so true! I would have loved to hear more details about this episode as well! Great stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Oct 10, 2002)

Important historical factoid we should all know:

At the Battle of Zela on August 2, 47 B.C., almost exactly a year since his victory at Farsala, Caesar had crushed the charioteers and hapless infantry of Pharnaces.  It was after this victory that Caesar sent his famous message back to Rome:  "I came, I saw, I conquered."

Veni, Vidi, Vici.


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## SHARK (Oct 15, 2002)

Greetings!

Yeah, it's kinda interesting how numerous kingdoms that opposed Rome were still using chariots, when even as far back as Alexander The Great the chariots were shown to be entirely eclipsed as a fighting force by horse-cavalry, pikemen, and archers. Still, many seemed slow to give up on the use of chariots and adopt new fighting formations and tactics.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Darklance (Oct 15, 2002)

Anyone know if this book has illustrations/photos in it? I'm trying to describe the book to someone near a store that has it and I think there may be several editions. Thanks.


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## SHARK (Oct 15, 2002)

Greetings!

Sorry, Darklance, the book is just text only.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen (Oct 15, 2002)

> Anyone know if this book has illustrations/photos in it? I'm trying to describe the book to someone near a store that has it and I think there may be several editions. Thanks.



No photos, no illustrations.  _Caesar's Legions_ -- note the "s" -- by Sekunda _is_ full of pictures though.

My copy of _Caesar's Legion_ by Dando-Collins is a red hardback with gilt Times-Roman all-caps print on the binding.  The dust jacket is a burgundy red with a painting of a barbarian on horseback approaching a seated Roman surrounded by his men.  Amazon's site has an image of the cover:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471095702/


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## mmadsen (Oct 16, 2002)

*Chapter XIV -- The Power of a Single Word (continued)*

While Caesar's away, the 10th Legion, "bored, frustrated, and increasingly angry," begins looting the homes of the rich back in Rome.  The 8th and 9th Legions join in.  When Antony orders the loyal 7th to guard the city, the looters turn to the wealthy Campagnia region to the south.

Don't these soldiers sound like D&D adventurers?

Anyway, Caesar returns and has the "7th Legion surround and protect his own house on the Sacred Way in the heart of the city -- the official residence of the _pontifex maximus_, high priest of Rome, which he'd occupied since his election to the post for life in 63 B.C."

Note that there's _no_ separation of Church of State.


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## mmadsen (Oct 18, 2002)

*Chapter XIV -- The Power of a Single Word (continued)*

Sallust, whom Caesar would make a major general in the new year, was authorized to promise the men four thousand sesterces each to return to their standards and march to Sicily for the next stage in Caesar's war against the Pompeians, an invasion of North Africa.

But when Sallust couldn't come up with these four thousand sesterces on the spot, along with the money Caesar had promised them at the start of the war, plus the vague rewards he'd mentioned after the Battle of Pharsalus, including grants of land, he was rejected by the angry legionaries, most of whom wanted to go home just as much as they wanted their money.

Caesar sends a deputy to do his dirty work, but he's still up to the same old tricks -- promise them everything, at some vague point in the future, for risking their lives today.

According to Appian, Sallust was to claim he only just escaped from the Fields of Mars with his life.

Caesar realizes he needs the 8th, 9th, and 10th Legions, and he has to go to them personally.

"What is it you want?" Caesar began.  "State your demands."

No one answered at first.  Appian says that none of them had the courage to ask for money and so one or two men began to call out for their discharge.  They had been detained in the legions illegally, they said, and they wanted to go home.  There were loud choruses of agreement.

"Very well," Caesar responded, "I discharge you.  All of you."

There was stunned silence.

"And," he went on after a judicious pause, "I will pay you everything I promised you, _after_ I win this war with other legions, and after _they_ have had their just rewards."

Smooth...

The men looked at him in stunned astonishment, waiting for him to say more.  But he didn't.  He just looked at them, his face expressionless.  The strained silence was painful, so painful that his staff officers standing beside the tribunal begged Caesar to say something more, not just dismiss with a few harsh words these troops who had been through so much with him over the years.

The men he's manipulating are men who've seen it all, men who've fought with him for years.  These aren't boys fresh off the farm.  But Caesar's that damn smooth...

Caesar nodded slowly, then began, with a single word:  "Citizens..."

The thousands of upturned faces were expectant.  The men waited for him to continue, but Caesar paused, and waited.  And as he paused, the true effect of that lone word sunk into his troops.  Normally, generals began addresses to their troops with "Soldiers" or "Fellow soldiers."  Caesar habitually began with "My soldiers."  And now he was addressing them as citizens, as if they were no longer soldiers, just men off the street.

"No!" men began to cry out.  "We're still your soldiers, Caesar!"

I guess it's a simple formula: compare soldiers to civilians, and they'll do anything to prove you wrong.

By the way, imagine being one of Caesar's girlfriends.  The mind games this guy could play...


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## mmadsen (Oct 22, 2002)

*Chapter XIV -- The Power of a Single Word (continued)*

At the end of Caesar's speech to his no-longer-mutinous troops, he makes an interesting point about the land they'll be granted:

"And the land I distribute to my soldiers will not be confiscated property, but public land, and my own land, and land bought for the purpose of distribution to my veterans."

Obviously, in the past, veterans _were_ given confiscated land, and weren't retirees so much as they were a buffer between Rome and whoever Rome had taken the land from.


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## mmadsen (Oct 24, 2002)

*Chapter XV -- The North African Campaign*

With Pompey dead, the exiled senate elected Scipio, Pompey's father-in-law, the new commander in chief of their military, and Scipio assembled an army in North Africa.

Caesar could wait for them to invade Italy, or he could take the war to them by invading North Africa.  As always, Caesar would take the initiative.


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## mmadsen (Oct 26, 2002)

*Chapter XV -- The North African Campaign*

Caesar had lost faith in Mark Antony, particularly after the inept way he'd handled the mutiny of the 10th, 9th, and 8th Legions at the capital.  Antony's high and mighty attitutde annoyed Caesar and many others.  Typically, Antony had contracted to buy Pompey's former house at Rome after it ahd been confiscated by Caesar, but complained bitterly when required to pay up -- he thought Caesar should make a gift of it to him.

Human nature doesn't change.

(The house, in the "Keels" district, would subsequently come into the possession of the emperor Augustus and become an imperial residence used by, among others, Tiberius prior to his becoming emperor.)

Must've been a _nice_ house...


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## Maldur (Oct 26, 2002)

he, Im back. 

If any of you guys ever plan on going to egypt: DONT !!!  (nasty country) but the buildings and monuments from before christ are VERY impressive. It seems the people from that era know how to do stuff on a grand scale. temples and monuments are HUGE, very impressive.

When im back in my "normal" modus Ill return to ceasars legions.


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## mmadsen (Oct 29, 2002)

> If any of you guys ever plan on going to egypt: DONT !!!  (nasty country but the buildings and monuments from before christ are VERY impressive.



If you can ignore the KFC across the street.  (I haven't been to Egypt, but that's what I've been told, that touristy nonsense has taken over.)


> It seems the people from that era know how to do stuff on a grand scale. temples and monuments are HUGE, very impressive.



Very true.  The Egyptian and Assyrian sections of the British Museum were awe-inspiring -- and those were all small parts of larger monuments.  The Romans and Greeks weren't too bad either...


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## Maldur (Oct 30, 2002)

Its not just the touristy stuff. Its also the smell (to quote Henry Rollins: "Its like inhaling a buick"), the dirt ( the streets are a place to dispose of your garbage, the oppresive heat ( drinking over 3-4 extra bottles of water a day, so your kidneys wont freeze up is not fun), the haggeling ( I have never haggled over the 6 cents I had to pay to use the bathroom) but the hassle is the worst!! you are bothered every two meters for taxies, horse and camel rides, restaurants, souverniers, sigarettes, etc etc etc  

but yes, the monument are nice. the british museum is a pale comparisan to the real deal.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 30, 2002)

Maldur said:
			
		

> *Its not just the touristy stuff. Its also the smell (to quote Henry Rollins: "Its like inhaling a buick"), the dirt ( the streets are a place to dispose of your garbage, the oppresive heat ( drinking over 3-4 extra bottles of water a day, so your kidneys wont freeze up is not fun), the haggeling ( I have never haggled over the 6 cents I had to pay to use the bathroom) but the hassle is the worst!! you are bothered every two meters for taxies, horse and camel rides, restaurants, souverniers, sigarettes, etc etc etc
> 
> but yes, the monument are nice. the british museum is a pale comparisan to the real deal. *




hehe, sounds like every low 2ndish-3rd world country.  most of the people in the world think that's normal.  makes you think about how lucky you really are, huh?

haggaling is fun though once you get used to it... if you dont haggle hard people actually get more upset than when you do... they figure that they could have named a price much higher than they did so they're sad.  its also a nice way to interact with people..  


joe b.


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## Maldur (Oct 30, 2002)

Lucky yes, but its kinda frustrating cause with just a little effort you could do so much more with the country ( its not like they dont have enough manpower, they do have olice ( heavily armed) on every street corner).

And NO!. Haggling is not fun, or nice. It boring and frustrating as well. I really dont like it. Afer three weeks I was still not used to it, and it stayed irritating. Luckily my girl speaks arabic so she did most of the haggling.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 30, 2002)

Maldur said:
			
		

> *Lucky yes, but its kinda frustrating cause with just a little effort you could do so much more with the country ( its not like they dont have enough manpower, they do have olice ( heavily armed) on every street corner).
> 
> And NO!. Haggling is not fun, or nice. It boring and frustrating as well. I really dont like it. Afer three weeks I was still not used to it, and it stayed irritating. Luckily my girl speaks arabic so she did most of the haggling. *




hehe similiar experience here!  My wife speaks a bit of hindi and she'd do a lot of our bargaining.  I'd alwasy have to bargin for the big items, though... patriarchy is alive and well and a bit more obvious than from over here.

The best fun was the tag team bargaining... my wife would bargin for shoes or something and she'd talk the guy down from 40$ to 10$ and they'd be smiling and then she say, "Well, i have to ask my husband."  hehehe  In their society that's considered respectable and she's honoring me, and being a good wife, by doing so, but she'd tell me the price and i'd just shake my head... like it was ridiculausly too high...

poor sales guys..  

joe b.


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## mmadsen (Nov 2, 2002)

*Chapter XV -- The North African Campaign*

Nothing ever happened quickly enough for Julius Caesar.  At least part of his audacity can be attributed to impatience.

Perhaps that's why I haven't taken over the world yet; I'm too patient.  (Maybe that's the elves' problem too?)

He pitched his tent on the beach, then fretted increasingly as the days passed.  The weather was unfavorable.  His legions were arriving in Sicily in dribs and drabs, with the majority of his best troops still days and weeks away....Yet, despite all this, he was determined to commence the offensive on the eve of winter, when the other side wasn't expecting him.

Did Napoleon and Hitler take the wrong lesson away from Caesar's success?  They both got stuck in protacted winter campaigns in Russia (instead of winning quick victories by surprise).


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## mmadsen (Nov 3, 2002)

*Chapter XV -- The North African Campaign*

This sounds a bit like the Tet offensive:

It was December 25, 47 B.C., following the Saturnalia, a religious festival that would become Christmas in the Christian era, when all Romans traditionally did no work and spent carefree time at leisure.  Caesar set sail from Sicily with his German cavalry bodyguard and elements of six legions, including the cohorts of the 10th Legion that had joined him from southern Italy.

All this talk of Christmas and Romans reminds me of Quomodo Invidiosulus Nomine Grinchus: How the Grinch Stole Christmas in Latin, translated by Terence O. Tunberg.


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## Maldur (Nov 3, 2002)

Indeed it does sound Tet. It seems that old battle plans never die!


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## mmadsen (Nov 4, 2002)

*Chapter XV -- The North African Campaign*

This sounds like it's straight out of a screenplay:

General Labienus rode up and down his line bareheaded, cheering on his men....[He] occasionally yelled caustic comments to Caesar's troops.

"What do you think you're doing, recruit?" the general called, fixing his gaze on one particular short, fresh-faced legionary in Caesar's line.  "Little fire-eater, aren't you?  Are you another one who's had his wits befuddled by Caesar's fine words?  I have to be honest with you, he's brought you into a desperate situation.  I'm sorry for you."

"I'm no raw recruit, Labienus," the soldier called back.  "I'm a veteran of the Tenth!"  A veteran who must have served under the general in Gaul, what was more.

"The Tenth?" Labienus retorted with a laugh in his voice.  "I don't recognize the standards of the Tenth anymore.  Let's see what you're made of!"

"You'll soon see what I'm made of," the 10th Legion man angrily declared, ripping off his helmet.  "Here!  See my face?  Remember it!"  With that, he flung the javelin in his right hand with all his might.

The range was extreme, and as the combatants watched the javelin's flight, as if in a dream, it appeared it would fall short of the target.  Instead it plunged into the chest of General Labienus's charger.  The horse reared up in pain and fear, throwing the unprepared Labienus from the saddle.  He landed heavily.

A cheer rose from Caesar's men.

"Maybe that'll help you recognize a soldier of the Tenth in the future, Labienus," the legionary called, bringing laughter from his 10th Legion comrades.


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## mmadsen (Nov 5, 2002)

*Chapter XV -- The North African Campaign*

As General Labienus lay prostrate on the ground, men of his bodyguard hastily gathered around him.  He was moving, dazed, and hurt by the fall as he was carried away.

In D&D, falling off a horse only does 1d6 damage.

Anyway, without him Labienus's men lose some of their fervor, but they still surround Caesar.

Realizing he had to seize the initiative, Caesar formed his thirty cohorts up so he had fifteen facing one way and fifteen behind them facing the other.  Both groups then charged forward at the same time, on his command, splitting the attacking force in two and breaking the encirclement.  Caesar then called his men back, and before the other side could re-form he quickly advanced through one of the gaps he'd opened up and marched for Thapsus at the double.

Caesar's maneuvers read like the kind of elaborate plays you'd design for your flag football team in 7th grade (that never worked) or like a superhero team's elaborate formation attacks.  He seems like the kind of guy who'd come up with the "Statue of Liberty" play.  (Apologies to Europeans who don't understand American football.)


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## mmadsen (Nov 6, 2002)

*Chapter XV -- The North African Campaign*

Caesar's column had gone only a few miles, harried by Labienus's troops all the way, when another opposition force swept into its path....[T]his force of sixteen hundred picked Numidian cavalry and a number of light infantry cut off Caesar from his base.

If I may translate English into D&D: picked --> high-level.

Caesar had no choice but to make a stand, and to gain the advantage of high ground he edged his beleaguered force to a low, bare hill, the only rise on the otherwise monotonously flat plain.

Again, high ground must be a serious, serious advantage.

The battle lasted all through the afternoon, with Caesar surrounded and taking heavy casualties.  It was looking like Julius Caesar's last stand.  At one point the eagle-bearer from one of the new legions broke ranks and tried to flee, but Caesar personally grabbed him and spun him around.  Plutarch says that Caesar angrily yelled, "Look, that's the way to the enemy!" and pushed the soldier back toward the fighting.

I never get sick of stories like that.


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## mmadsen (Nov 6, 2002)

With winter approaching, Scipio pens Caesar in.  They skirmish, but Caesar refuses to line up for a big, decisive battle.  Instead, he waits for his reinforcements from overseas.

His 13th and 14th Legions arrrive, and finally his 10th.  He's still seething over their mutiny, but he can't afford to lose his veteran troops, so he singles out a few officers.  From _The African War_:

"I would have thought," he began, "that people might at long last have put an end to their impertinence and insubordination, and ceased to take advantage of my leniency, moderation, and patience.  But since they won't themselves set any bounds or limits, then I'll make an example, in accordance with military practice, to teach the others to mend their ways."

He sounds like a disappointed teacher, doesn't he?  Or a parent.

He then called out two tribunes and three centurions of the 10th Legion by name.  Looking puzzled and not a little worried, the five nominated officers stepped forward and lined up in front of the tribunal.  As they did, they probably noticed the centurions of the guard cohorts on duty taking up positions close by with hands on sword hilts.

Did all the soldiers watching coo "Ooooooh, busssss-ted!"?

"Gaius Avienus," Caesar now began, glaring down at the spoiled, rich young colonel, "whereas you did in Italy incite the troops of the Roman people to actiona against the state and did plunder varius municipalities, and whereas you have been of no service to either myself or the state, but have, instead of troops, embarked your own slaves and livestock, and have thereby caused the state to be short of troops at a time of crisis -- for these reasons, I discharge you with dishonor from my army and order you to remove yourself immediately from Africa."

At this point, Caesar had convinced _me_ that Gaius Avienus must go.  He also dismisses another young colonel before turning to three centurions.

"Titus Salienus, Marcus Tito, Gaius Clusinas, whereas you have obtained your ranks in my army by favor, and not through merit, have shown yourselves neither brave in combat nor loyal in peace, and have directed yourselves to inciting the men to mutiny against their commander rather than to respectful and obedient conduct, I judge you unfit to hold rank in my army.  I dismiss you from my service and order you to leave Africa immediately."


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## mmadsen (Nov 11, 2002)

*Chapter XV -- The North African Campaign*

Caesar was feeling more confident now.  He had two of his four best legions with him, plus another seven legions.  And the young Spanish recruits of the 5th Legion had sent their tribunes to him to say they wanted the honor of taking on Scipio's elephants when battle was finally joined.  Caesar didn't hesitate to accept their offer, which made the men of the other units feel a whole lot better about what lay ahead.

Another adventure seed -- the PCs volunteer to take on the enemy's elephants, giants, golems, whatever.


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## Maldur (Nov 12, 2002)

The training for the fifth was also kinda involved. Six elephants shipped in to train with( and they had about a year of constant drilling in anti elephant techniques, before they met about 60 of them in combat). 

An additional 2000 slingthrowers.

These elephants were taken seriously. 

That combined with the intention not to use his own elephants in combat. => Ceasar did not like elephants and thought them not fit for battlefield duty.




ps: sorry it took me a while to get back again, but im back with comments. mmadsen do you know where SHARK is?


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## mmadsen (Nov 15, 2002)

> The training for the fifth was also kinda involved. Six elephants shipped in to train with( and they had about a year of constant drilling in anti elephant techniques, before they met about 60 of them in combat).  An additional 2000 slingthrowers.  These elephants were taken seriously.



Wow!  A year of training against shipped-in elephants! 


> That combined with the intention not to use his own elephants in combat. => Ceasar did not like elephants and thought them not fit for battlefield duty.



If it takes that much effort to counter elephants, how can they _not_ be fit for battlefield duty?


> ps: sorry it took me a while to get back again, but im back with comments. mmadsen do you know where SHARK is?



SHARK's busy cranking out his gi-friggin'-gantic epic-level adventure right now.


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## SHARK (Nov 15, 2002)

Greetings!

Hey there mmadsen and Maldur! LOL! Yeah, I apologise, lately I have been quite busy, and not able to contribute as often as I would like to the threads here. I miss you all as well.

Chapter XV

I really liked how the 5th Legion adopted the elephant as an emblem for their unit banners. That is so cool! Indeed, elephants were a danger to use on the battlefield, but the fact that they were used successfully throughout warfare in Africa, the Middle East, and India for hundreds of years testifies to their impact on the battlefield. In classes on Ancient History, my professor, Dr. Chrissanthos from USC, explained that even though Alexander the Great in his conquest of Persia and parts of India defeated opposing forces that deployed elephants, he also was quite eager to enlist hundreds of elephants into his armies as he marched onward, gathering new armies, and conquering new lands. War Elephants were a welcome part of Alexander The Great's army, and they were welcome because they were effective. No unit is *unbeatable* in any kind of circumstances, but all units can contribute in whatever ways they can to the overall victory. Such is the view that I think Alexander had, and even in Roman times, War Elephants were still effectively used in warfare. The fact that the Roman 5th Legion trained for a whole year in special anti-elephant tactics is a stark testimony to the terror and grim effectiveness that elephants could have on the battlefield.

And, the fact that the 5th Legion was allowed to use the elephant as part of their banner after defeating them in battle is evidence that it was a heroic accomplishment, because, had fighting elephants been easy--because elephants were lame and ineffective in battle--then there would be no compelling reason to decorate a unit with such an honour, and celebrate the accomplishment as anything particularly heroic or special.

Obviously, though, even though Caesar personally opted to not use elephants in battle, he as mmadsen mentioned, had an immense respect for their capabilities and the threat that War Elephants posed in battle, even to veteran Roman Legions.

I'd say that that is quite a testimony to elephants skills and abilities in warfare. That is one reason why in my own campaigns, I often make use of trained elephants as mounts and war beasts.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Rashak Mani (Nov 15, 2002)

Certainly elephants werent very compatible with the Roman tactical style... still doesnt hurt to know how to handle these Ancient Battlefield "tank" units....


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## Maldur (Nov 15, 2002)

the threat of a amok elephant,rampaging through friend and foe alike, sounds very scary.

And those recruits of the 5th volunteerd, to fight them.

Also I like the fact the 5th send their officers to volunteer, like an officer is a kind of communication device


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## mmadsen (Nov 20, 2002)

> I really liked how the 5th Legion adopted the elephant as an emblem for their unit banners.



Yes -- but "elephant slayer" doesn't have quite the same ring to it as "giant slayer" or "dragon slayer".


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## Maldur (Nov 21, 2002)

Well units can always adopt giant or dragon emblems, same way as the 5th adopted elephants. 

There should be Vallorean Legions with emblems in the same style.


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## mmadsen (Nov 26, 2002)

*Chapter XV -- The North African Campaign*

For hour after hour, 130,000 men stood glaring at each other under the North African sun, with neither commander, not Caesar, not the bearded, severe Scipio, wanting to be the one to make the first move.

Now _that_'s a standoff.

They stood there from morning until late afternoon until finally Caesar began to withdraw his troops to his camp, unit by unit, in formation.

That seems like a potential morale hit, pulling away from a standoff like that.


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## mmadsen (Dec 2, 2002)

> the threat of a amok elephant,rampaging through friend and foe alike, sounds very scary.



I can't be the only one here looking forward to seeing the rampaging "oliphaunts" in _The Two Towers_ in a few weeks...


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## Maldur (Dec 2, 2002)

oh yeah!!!

Got tickets for the double feature: 

Fellowship of the ring and Two towers back to back!!!


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## mmadsen (Dec 5, 2002)

*Chapter XV -- The North African Campaign (continued)*

Suddenly General Labienus led the entire Pompeian cavalry force in the direction of Caesar's camp, as if to cut off his line of retreat.  Before Caesar could order any counteraction, some of his cavalry and auxiliary light infantry  launched an attack from his left wing of their own accord.  A swift fight ensued, before the Pompeians sent Caesar's men into retreat, killing twenty-eight and wounding a number of the others.  Nightfall saved Caesar from any further embarrassment.  Scipio let him withdraw into his camp.  The stalemate continued.

So they finally clash -- some fraction of the 130,000 troops who'd been facing off under the North African sun -- and _28_ men die?  I was expecting a bit more carnage...


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