# Female gamers: Weal or woe?



## shieldheart (Jul 11, 2008)

Having played d&d almost exclusively with an all male group, the concept of a female gamer is somewhat foreign to me.  In the dozen or so sessions I've played with female players, I've found that female gamers, by virtue of their gender alone, change the gameplay experience dramatically.  

Most of the time it's a headache.

Hear me out now, I've got nothing against female players.  They're awesome and everything.  The problem arises mostly with the male players whenever there's a female present.  They almost always act differently.  Some guys will hold back from being their normal selves and restrain themselves from cracking potentially offensive jokes where they otherwise wouldn't hesitate.  Some guys will go out of their way to try to impress the female, in game or otherwise.  I've wanted to pull out my hair during sessions where guys spent the entire 3 hours chatting up the girl, distracting her and everyone else from the session and holding it up.

Has anyone else had similar experiences?  How do you deal with it?  I want to include a few female friends into my gaming sessions but I don't want the atmosphere of the group to change.


----------



## C.W.Richeson (Jul 11, 2008)

I can't say that I have.  I've played in mostly female groups, mostly male groups, and briefly in an all male group.  The only real difference was that there were more female PCs in the groups with more women.

Then again, by far I tend to be playing with married folk and have for some time.


----------



## Barastrondo (Jul 11, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Hear me out now, I've got nothing against female players.  They're awesome and everything.  The problem arises mostly with the male players whenever there's a female present.




Should the title of this post not be "Male gamers who are exposed to female gamers: Weal or Woe?"


----------



## SavageRobby (Jul 11, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Some guys will hold back from being their normal selves and restrain themselves from cracking potentially offensive jokes where they otherwise wouldn't hesitate.




Wow. You haven't been at our table. We might even be worse when the women show up. 

Of course, all the womenfolk at our tables (usually 2-3, to the 5-6 guys) are wives/girlfriends, and we're also all social beyond gaming (dinners, holidays, movies, board games, shopping, etc). Also, most of us are mid-to-late 30s and fairly stable, so that might be part of it.


FWIW, our game sessions are much more interesting because of the mixed group (different perspectives, different strengths, different strategies). I also think it helps that we have multiple women, not just one.


----------



## Dragonbait (Jul 11, 2008)

Welcome to a hobby where many members are socially awkward..

I've been in a lot of groups with at least one female in them. 

In recent memory the worst experience was: One guy tried to flirt with one of two potentially new female gamers the entire time. The GM started to assign seating so that he was away from her (he oftne placed me as her shield), but he would move people's things to sit near her and get upset if we told him where to sit. He ended up creeping her out and she stopped coming after the 3rd game.
...We should have booted the guy, really, for being immature and creating an uncomfortable gaming environment.

Another experience is where a new, and veeeery good looking (IMO) female player joined. It went very well, but one player (not the same guy as above) bought her dice, brought her books, food, and a new mini to use for her character nearly every gaming session. It never went beyond puppy love, as far as I know. She eventually left after 6 months due to her school and work schedule eating up her free time.

I had one experience with a group of hack 'n slashers where, when I was talking about my group at the time, they all looked at me and said "You game with GIRLS?!?!"


----------



## Grimstaff (Jul 11, 2008)

Love female gamers, never noticed any excessive flirting problems.

Maybe your players need to get out more? 


I did have an uncomfotable break-up situation in my group once though, which resulted in the male individual being booted from group, unfortunately.


----------



## Arnwyn (Jul 11, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Hear me out now, I've got nothing against female players.  They're awesome and everything.  The problem arises mostly with the male players whenever there's a female present.  They almost always act differently.  Some guys will hold back from being their normal selves and restrain themselves from cracking potentially offensive jokes where they otherwise wouldn't hesitate.  Some guys will go out of their way to try to impress the female, in game or otherwise.  I've wanted to pull out my hair during sessions where guys spent the entire 3 hours chatting up the girl, distracting her and everyone else from the session and holding it up.
> 
> Has anyone else had similar experiences?  How do you deal with it?  I want to include a few female friends into my gaming sessions but I don't want the atmosphere of the group to change.



How likely are you to invite females to any other of your 'nights out with the (guys)'? Would you and/or your group not hesitate inviting females to a (hypothetical) poker night, for example?

That will help answer the question as to how the atmosphere might change (and it certainly sounds like it will, given the first paragraph above).


----------



## Alzrius (Jul 11, 2008)

Female gamers: Reinventing the weal.


----------



## greatamericanfolkher (Jul 11, 2008)

I had one female gamer in my spelljammer game a while back. Other than a rules issue we straightened out early (a bard with no perform) she was a great addition to the group.


----------



## Pbartender (Jul 11, 2008)

SavageRobby said:


> Wow. You haven't been at our table. We might even be worse when the women show up.
> 
> Of course, all the womenfolk at our tables (usually 2-3, to the 5-6 guys) are wives/girlfriends, and we're also all social beyond gaming (dinners, holidays, movies, board games, shopping, etc). Also, most of us are mid-to-late 30s and fairly stable, so that might be part of it.
> 
> ...




Quoted...  

Because it describes my own situation so exactly, that I might have written it myself.


----------



## Stormborn (Jul 11, 2008)

In about  6 years of gaming I have played a grand total of 1 session where women were not present or even the majority.  But then at the age of 36 I am the youngest player in the group and so age may account for a lot of it.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Jul 11, 2008)

Grimstaff said:


> I did have an uncomfotable break-up situation in my group once though, which resulted in the *male individual *being booted from group, unfortunately.



Good choice. 

Seriously, The Ultimate Gaming Table has 3 female members. 2 wives and 1 girlfriend of male members. There is realy a lot of flirting all around the table, but it's only because we are all good friends.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

OK; first of all; if you're going to ask if the concept of playing with girls is "weal or woe" and lean heavily toward the latter; please do all of the rest of us a favor and don't play with any.  We don't want to expose them to you.

Or; better yet, do and maybe she'll come post funny stories here about the creepy guys she played with this one time.


----------



## Obryn (Jul 11, 2008)

Wow, I haven't had an all-male group since high school.

-O


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Jul 11, 2008)

My experiences are completely dissimilar. My wife is one of my players, and obviously that means there's no "hitting on her" factor (esp. as all but one of the players are married or in long-term relationships), and I've seen absolutely no holding of extremely obscene jokes, unfair allegations regarding character parentage/sexuality/special interests, or what-have-you.

She's a good player, and whilst a little retiring in D&D because she's not entirely sure what she's doing (very experienced MMORPG and CRPG player, not so much P&P RPG), certainly contributes to the game significantly. I don't think there'd be any problem if any other female SOs joined in, either, given we all socialize together and are reasonably comfortable with each other. The only potential problems I could see would be if people who didn't want to play were being brought in.

Basically, it's a matter of familiarity and whether the players themselves are stable. Suddenly add a "hot gurl" to a mostly-teenage, mostly-nerdy group is gonna have an impact, and it won't necessarily be for the better initially. However, unless the players have serious problems, by the second or third session, the impact will be over.

Tbh, whilst ymmv, the main thing to do is to not be playing with scary non-social-skills nerds who are either gynophobes or freaks. So long as that's the case, any disruption will be over soon.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Jul 11, 2008)

I avoid tricky problems of gender relations by refusing to play with emotionally and/or socially underdeveloped 'people'.

Choose your companions wisely and a fellow gamer's race/sex/religion/whatever just don't come into it.

Unless they're furries.  Those we destroy on sight.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 11, 2008)

Female Gamers: Woot!



While I can kind of understand that some D&D groups have a sort of "guys poker night" vibe and have nothing against that, I myself have never had a real need for that. I've DMed for girls-only groups and mixed groups, and any relationship issues (even between the gals of the girls-only group) have been left at the door long before we enter the fantasy world. That might just be because the ones I play with are mature enough to handle the opposite gender without getting all funny in the head.

But I do totally understand that some D&D groups are guy-exclusive in the same way that a poker night of fantasy football league are -- it's a guy-bonding time. There's nothing wrong with that, really. It's not what I D&D for, but whatevs, I'm not going to sit here and judge you as a creepo for it.


----------



## Insight (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm not sure the thread title (and the OP) looks at the situation from the proper perspective.  Why is the question framed on female gamers?  Isn't the problem with socially immature male gamers vs. socially mature male gamers?

Anyway, I expect this thread to soon be mired in bickering and thus closed, which will be too bad, considering this is a topic worthy of discussion.


----------



## Obryn (Jul 11, 2008)

PowerWordDumb said:


> I avoid tricky problems of gender relations by refusing to play with emotionally and/or socially underdeveloped 'people'.



Well, I was going to ask how old his group was and/or if it's full of virgins. 

If they're young & naive - which is my guess, based on the thread title - then yeah, it's a hugely different kind of social dynamic.  I don't expect high-schoolers to be as emotionally mature as adults.

-O


----------



## Philotomy Jurament (Jul 11, 2008)

When I first started gaming, it was almost exclusively boys (although my sister played a few times, and there was a girl on my street that liked playing, too).  That changed in high school and college, with the introduction of girlfriends into the group.  Since then, and continuing into the "married with children" phase, I don't think I've ever had a group that didn't include members of both sexes.

Edit - I've never really considered a "guys poker night" game.  I wouldn't want to give up the regular heterogeneous group, but I bet an all-male game would have a different vibe.


----------



## shieldheart (Jul 11, 2008)

Hobo said:


> OK; first of all; if you're going to ask if the concept of playing with girls is "weal or woe" and lean heavily toward the latter; please do all of the rest of us a favor and don't play with any.  We don't want to expose them to you.
> 
> Or; better yet, do and maybe she'll come post funny stories here about the creepy guys she played with this one time.




Clearly the way I phrased my question ultimately determines it's answer.  The fact that I have some legitimate concerns really suggests that I am closed minded despite the fact that I am asking for advice.

Maybe I can do a search for funny posts about ignorant players who will assume the worst about other players and assert terrible things about them.

Or maybe I don't have to look too far at all.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm not quite sure what you want advice on.  Do you talk to girls in other settings?  I don't understand how this is difficult.

We recently added a fiance (and then wife) to our group, which was previously "boys only" without any change in our dynamic really.  To use the old standby because even though its cliche, it's still true: "it sounds like you have player problems; get better players."


----------



## KingCrab (Jul 11, 2008)

I've had female gamers who I've really wanted to play with except for the fact that their spouses were too anoying and came as part of the package.

Then again, I've (more often) had female gamers who wanted to play to be with their boyfriends but didn't really have any interest for the game.


----------



## racoffin (Jul 11, 2008)

Hm. Don't think I've ever played when females were not at the table, going all the way back to the early days. They never seemed to distract from the game, and in fact helped it along quite a bit by reigning in some of the more gung-ho kill-them-all players and adding layers of analytical thinking and problem solving skills to the mix. 

Females are not a problem at the table; it might be a matter of slapping a bit of sense into a few of the boys/men who can't keep date night and game night separate.


----------



## Carpe DM (Jul 11, 2008)

I've had many good experiences with female gamers.

But that is because I play a different social form of D&D.  We get several couples together.  We bring food and have supper together.  No-one is under 18.  There is some nice wine.  We are all friends, as couples, in other areas of our lives.

This couples form of D&D relies on having several non-crazy, non-creepy friends who can relive their inner nerds.  It is enormously rewarding.  It is comfortable, and people have a lot of fun.

cheers,

Carpe


----------



## Nifft (Jul 11, 2008)

In my limited experience with female gamers, they're as mixed as male gamers: some are great, some are terrible, some are both.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

I think the question isn't whether or not females are good gamers, it's whether or not males can handle having females at the table.

My answer is still the same; if they can't, you've got some real losers at your table that you need to cut loose.


----------



## fusangite (Jul 11, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Having played d&d almost exclusively with an all male group, the concept of a female gamer is somewhat foreign to me.  In the dozen or so sessions I've played with female players, I've found that female gamers, by virtue of their gender alone, change the gameplay experience dramatically.



I think they can shift the social dynamic of a group significantly. I've been in two groups that have stayed all-male in part because of a desire to defend the guys' night dynamic the groups have had. But these groups have been the exception.

Most gaming dynamics that people want tend to be more easily achieved with female players in the mix in my experience. If you want better role-playing, more focus on story, less cross-talk, more cooperation or a host of other things most groups want, in principle, adding female players tends to get you closer to this. Only if you want more gross-out humour, drunker players, more teasing and regular sodomy jokes in your game dynamic does keeping female players out get you closer to your desired game dynamic. Sometimes I want those things (and then I usually keep female players out) but usually I don't.







> Hear me out now, I've got nothing against female players.  They're awesome and everything.  The problem arises mostly with the male players whenever there's a female present.  They almost always act differently.  Some guys will hold back from being their normal selves and restrain themselves from cracking potentially offensive jokes where they otherwise wouldn't hesitate.



Agreed. If offensive jokes and uninhibited bawdy discourse are priorities for your group, don't add female players.







> Some guys will go out of their way to try to impress the female, in game or otherwise.  I've wanted to pull out my hair during sessions where guys spent the entire 3 hours chatting up the girl, distracting her and everyone else from the session and holding it up.



That's a problem with that particular male player. If he'd been gay, he would have screwed-up all your games. 

If that kind of behaviour is common, you are playing with people who are too rude and/or too desperate.







> Has anyone else had similar experiences?



Women reducing dirty jokes. Yes. My solution: put women in groups where you want fewer not more dirty jokes.

Women getting hit on mercilessly by players. No. My solution: get players who do this on their own time.







> I want to include a few female friends into my gaming sessions but I don't want the atmosphere of the group to change.



Well, then don't include them in the group you've got. Instead, make a new group with a different atmosphere and include them in that.


----------



## Afrodyte (Jul 11, 2008)

Insight said:


> I'm not sure the thread title (and the OP) looks at the situation from the proper perspective.  Why is the question framed on female gamers?




I have that question too.

The question I want to ask is: Why continue to seek out women gamers if you don't want the atmosphere to change? Better yet, why introduce a new player if you don't want anything to change about your current group?

I've been the new person in a lot of groups. Speaking from my experience, I've felt most welcome in group that were seeking out a new person, not just an extra PC to round out the group. These guys were looking for something different, hoping to find someone who could bring something new to the table, and accommodating to people who have perspectives and experiences unlike their own. In the cases where I felt unwelcome, it was because they weren't really looking for a new person; instead, they needed another character to fill out the group. With such groups, the best thing I could do to get along is be invisible.


----------



## Ambush Bug (Jul 11, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> I want to include a few female friends into my gaming sessions but I don't want the atmosphere of the group to change.




Adding _anybody_ new to your group will probably change the atmosphere - I've ruined a few games myself by not fitting in and not wanting to (Abe and Cale's dull dungeon crawl, I'm looking at you). Unless all of your friends are friends with all of your other friends, things shift whenever you get new blood. How does your group feel about adding new people in general?


----------



## Boarstorm (Jul 11, 2008)

```
o
               ><----------------
[]             /|
```
That's me not touching this thread with a 10' pole.


----------



## WayneLigon (Jul 11, 2008)

Sounds like you need to hire a yenta to get all your players in relationships so they stop hitting on the new female player.


----------



## Voadam (Jul 11, 2008)

Sounds like you are worried your male gaming buddies will act differently in a game with women. You say you want to include some female friends but don't want the atmosphere of spontaneous potentially offensive jokes and focused gaming to change.

Talk to your gaming buddies, tell them you want to bring in some female friends but also bring up your concerns that they will self censor and act innapropriate for the game and you don't want that to happen. Have a discussion about it so they can be aware of the issue, being conscious of it can make a difference instead of waiting for an anticipated train wreck.

My experience was different and there was no problem introducing a female friend to my game. In college senior year I took over my room-mate's D&D campaign which included my room-mates and some of the prior DM's friends who I didn't know before I started running the game (all males). Partway through the year another room-mate says a female friend of his from his work is interested in learning how to play D&D and wanted to join our group based upon his stories about our weekly games. I said sure and she became a regular member of our group. The atmosphere did not change except that she was learning the rules whereas everyone else already knew them. We all still had fun and enjoyed our weekly game sessions until the end of the year when the campaign ended when summer came and people graduated or split for summer.

Other groups I've been in have had women members or not and I've never experienced the problems you described.


----------



## shieldheart (Jul 11, 2008)

Afrodyte said:


> I have that question too.
> 
> The question I want to ask is: Why continue to seek out women gamers if you don't want the atmosphere to change? Better yet, why introduce a new player if you don't want anything to change about your current group?




To clarify, I am not actively seeking out female gamers but I do have some female friends who have expressed an interest in joining our group of players.  I suppose the idea was to ask how I could include them without changing the atmosphere of the group.

Most of the situations I described in the OP were hypothetical as most of my players are in LTRs or are otherwise mature enough to handle being around girls.  My main concern would be that they would feel they have to pussyfoot around whenever girls are present.  I included the other situations just to get a wider range of responses and experiences.

I'm mostly just curious about the female dynamic.  I'm not overly concerned with the issue at all.  Just wanted to know how other people's experiences have been, positive, negative or otherwise.


----------



## Vanuslux (Jul 11, 2008)

For the most part, I've gamed with a lot of women who were a part of my real world social circle and I can't think of any situation where that was a problem.  Women I've met at the gaming table for the first time, however, have been a mixed bag but the same can be said for guys I've met at the gaming table as well.


----------



## Vanuslux (Jul 11, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> To clarify, I am not actively seeking out female gamers but I do have some female friends who have expressed an interest in joining our group of players.  I suppose the idea was to ask how I could include them without changing the atmosphere of the group.
> 
> Most of the situations I described in the OP were hypothetical as most of my players are in LTRs or are otherwise mature enough to handle being around girls.  My main concern would be that they would feel they have to pussyfoot around whenever girls are present.  I included the other situations just to get a wider range of responses and experiences.




Do you have to pussyfoot around your female friends?  If not, you might illustrate that to the guys at your table by being the one who gets the ball of crassness rolling.


----------



## Jhaelen (Jul 12, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Has anyone else had similar experiences?  How do you deal with it?  I want to include a few female friends into my gaming sessions but I don't want the atmosphere of the group to change.



Well, assuming your female friends will be there to play the game, you'll just have to point out this obvious fact to your male players. Unless they're complete dorks they should be able to respect that.

I've had a similar bad experience with a male player. But said player was a big problem even when no female player was around: He couldn't roleplay for the life of him and would always get distracted by something else. He was unable to make any decisions, especially in situations that required quick thinking. I guess, the only reason why he bothered to show up was to socialize. So, the real problem with this guy was a completely different one.

Female gamers are definitely a good thing to have in a group, unless they're not interested in the game. Someone bringing his girl-friend or spouse to the game just to have her around (and she just being interested to be there because of him) will usually not work well.

So, long story short: I always try to have female gamers in my groups. They often have a different viewpoint on things and generally improve the gaming experience for everyone involved.


----------



## shieldheart (Jul 12, 2008)

Vanuslux said:


> Do you have to pussyfoot around your female friends?  If not, you might illustrate that to the guys at your table by being the one who gets the ball of crassness rolling.




To be honest, I'm sure I act different when I'm with my female friends from how I act when I am with my boys.  Isn't that the same for everyone though?


----------



## Belen (Jul 12, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> To be honest, I'm sure I act different when I'm with my female friends from how I act when I am with my boys.  Isn't that the same for everyone though?




How old are you?  Seriously, this sounds more like an age/ maturity problem than a male-female problem.

If anything, we tend to be raunchier when we have women in the group.  They do not change how we play in the slightest.  The only problem you would have here is if the lady was encouraging some sort of special snowflake status.

If you are worried about how the guys are acting, then just send an e-mail and say "dear group, please attempt to get laid on your own time.  I want to game and so does she, so restrict your fantasies to the game world when you sit at my table."


----------



## The Little Raven (Jul 12, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> To be honest, I'm sure I act different when I'm with my female friends from how I act when I am with my boys.  Isn't that the same for everyone though?




Nope. All of my friends, male or female, get Brendan at full volume. The only time I act different is when I'm uncomfortable or sick or whatever, but the gender of those present has no bearing on my attitude.


----------



## fusangite (Jul 12, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> To be honest, I'm sure I act different when I'm with my female friends from how I act when I am with my boys.  Isn't that the same for everyone though?



I would hope so. Hopefully we all adapt our behaviour to the social situation in which we find ourselves. That's what being part of society is all about, right?

EDIT: I can't believe this is controversial. Every group or individual I interact with has a different dynamic. If one has a diverse group of friends, if one is socially successful at work, how can this be avoided?


----------



## fba827 (Jul 12, 2008)

In the past, I have been in groups where it was all one gender or the other and a new player of the opposite gender (or in one case, a very very attractive person of the same gender that the DM took an instant crush on, but that's another story).  Only one time was there even the slightest hint of it being a problem, and that was easily handled.

It would seem that the more attention you draw to the fact that they are female, the more potential it has to disrupt.  I say just have them come and (wait for it ...) treat them and the session like you would any other.

Others may be a little awkward BUT with enough people acting as a rolemodel, they will get over their awkwardness by the second or third session.  If not, it will just mean that more of the guys will shower and groom before coming over 

If there is a problem by the end of the second/third session, then try and figure out who / what it is the problem and address it (really it shouldn't even be a major issue unless it's the DM playing favorites based on gender).  But trying to anticipate social awkwardness and deal with it ahead of time may just be making yourself crazy over nothing.


Just my two cents from my own experiences anyway.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Jul 12, 2008)

fusangite said:


> Hopefully we all adapt our behaviour to the social situation in which we find ourselves.




Yea, sure... 










I don't understand.


----------



## Korgoth (Jul 12, 2008)

SavageRobby said:


> Wow. You haven't been at our table.




First thing I thought of when reading this guy's post!


----------



## Nifft (Jul 12, 2008)

fusangite said:


> EDIT: I can't believe this is controversial. Every group or individual I interact with has a different dynamic. If one has a diverse group of friends, if one is socially successful at work, how can this be avoided?



 Some people avoid it by being socially unsuccessful at work, and maintaining a small, heterogeneous group of friends.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## shieldheart (Jul 12, 2008)

I treat female friends differently from my 'boys' in the same way I treat my work friends differently from my high school buddies.

It's not a question of maturity.  I don't curse or tell dirty jokes when I'm talking to children or sensitive people.  I don't eat with my fingers at a fancy restaurant.

Different people and situations call for different behaviour.  I don't see how it can be construed as a maturity issue.  Men and women are different.  If they were the same, I wouldn't have made this post.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Jul 12, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Has anyone else had similar experiences?



None of the games I have ever played in which included female gamers have ever had anything like you describe happen.

While my male friends are more likely to be gamers than my female friends, I only play with my friends, so there's no reason why the guys would act differently at the gaming table than they do when we're going to a movie, or getting together to play _Guitar Hero_, or just at a party.

Now, maybe my experience is limited. While I play with women regularly, all of the women I've gamed with in the last few years have been in relationships - so, even if their partner isn't actually in the game, I suppose there's a difference between that and having a single woman the men might want to crack onto.

Still, even if some of these women had been single, the usual dynamics would apply. Not every unattached guy I know is going to be interested in every unattached woman he hangs out with - I know I wasn't, when I was single.

The closest personal experience I have with "potential problems" involving a female gamer I can think of is one woman who was eager to join a particular game because she was interested in the GM. However: a) she ended up in a serious relationship with another player in the game instead (and probably would have even if she didn't join the game, since the two of them were close friends anyway), and b) she was also genuinely interested in the game itself, and certainly remains so even though she's not after the GM anymore.

When I think about it, all of the long-term games I've ever played with this group of friends have involved at least one woman. There were two in the first Third Edition _D&D_ game I ever played, up to three at one point in a d20 _Wheel of Time_ game, two in the Fourth Edition _D&D_ game I run now, and one in each of the games I'm playing now (Fourth Edition _D&D_ and Fourth Edition _GURPS_.


----------



## Barastrondo (Jul 12, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Different people and situations call for different behaviour.  I don't see how it can be construed as a maturity issue.  Men and women are different.  If they were the same, I wouldn't have made this post.




Granted, but men and other men are also different. I have a lot more in common with my wife and one of my old college friends, plumbing excepted, than I do with the great majority of my male co-workers, enough so that I find it a lot easier to get along with her than with them. Heck, I have more in common with my wife than with my brother. If the guys in your gaming group act differently around women, that makes them different than the guys in my gaming group.

In my experience, there was some tension the first time I was in a group that became gender-integrated, back in college. There was the whole shifting around as the guys sort of tried to suss out if the women would also be amenable to dating, and the women tried to suss out if we were a genuinely friendly group, or a bunch of creeps under the surface of politeness. As it turned out, we were a compatible bunch of friends, and the tensions generally dissipated. Ever since then, I've gamed regularly with women and there were no troubles — well, there were troubles, but they were more frequently one male having troubles with another than anything resulting from gender integration. 

Once your male friends learn to relax around women that they consider friends, it should probably work out. The dynamic may not be as locker-room as it was, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, depending on the group.


----------



## blargney the second (Jul 12, 2008)

Good lord, weal.
-blarg


----------



## Silver Moon (Jul 12, 2008)

Grimstaff said:


> I did have an uncomfotable break-up situation in my group once though, which resulted in the male individual being booted from group, unfortunately.



Back in college that happened all the time, college aged male players would bring their girlfriends to the group, who would be welcomed with open arms by the group's mid-thirties hostess.  When the eventual break-ups happened it was the girl who stayed and the guy who left.   At one point I was gaming with a group that was 75% female.....dated a few of them too.


----------



## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 12, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Men and women are different.  If they were the same, I wouldn't have made this post.




Men and women aren't that different, in my opinion.  That said, I think the _expected roles_ of men and women in normal society construe each gender as a fundamentally different species.

But in all seriousness -- come on, we play D&D.  We're hardly in normal society.


----------



## Ambush Bug (Jul 12, 2008)

blargney the second said:


> Good lord, weal.
> -blarg




Hear, hear. Mixed-gender groups produce more interesting games and more interesting characters, as far as I've ever seen. It doesn't sound like you have serious problems on the horizon, and I don't think you need to worry about hypotheticals.

Also, I just asked my wife what she thinks. We've been roleplaying together for 20+ years, married for 2. She says she's always played in mixed-gender groups, and she's always liked the dynamic.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Jul 12, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> To be honest, I'm sure I act different when I'm with my female friends from how I act when I am with my boys.  Isn't that the same for everyone though?



Absolutely not. My female friends swear about as often as my male friends (i.e., some very rarely, some frequently), I tell the same jokes to women as I do to men, I act in exactly the same way - okay, except maybe I'm more likely to hug a female friend hello than a male friend, and even then I have some male friends who like to hug rather than just go, "Hey."


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Jul 12, 2008)

Barastrondo said:


> Granted, but men and other men are also different. I have a lot more in common with my wife and one of my old college friends, plumbing excepted, than I do with the great majority of my male co-workers, enough so that I find it a lot easier to get along with her than with them. Heck, I have more in common with my wife than with my brother.



That is so true about me, as well, especially the last part.

Obviously, everyone relates to different groups of people in different ways. It's just that there's no division between "my female friends" and "my male friends" - it's "my friends", "the production and shipping staff at work", "the office staff at work", "my close family", "the rest of my family".


----------



## Obryn (Jul 12, 2008)

You know, the only problem I've had with women at my table has been when one of my long-time female players brought her friend over to join the game, and they spent half the session grabbing their own and each others' breasts.

-O


----------



## Vanuslux (Jul 12, 2008)

fusangite said:


> I would hope so. Hopefully we all adapt our behaviour to the social situation in which we find ourselves. That's what being part of society is all about, right?
> 
> EDIT: I can't believe this is controversial. Every group or individual I interact with has a different dynamic. If one has a diverse group of friends, if one is socially successful at work, how can this be avoided?




He said female friends, not female co-workers.  You can't pick your co-workers (unless you're the one doing the hiring) but you do have some control over who your friends are.  As a general rule, I don't keep friends in my life that I have to wear different masks around.


----------



## ki11erDM (Jul 12, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Most of the time it's a headache.





The biggest problem I have found is they tend to get pregnant.


----------



## MrApothecary (Jul 12, 2008)

So, why exactly is this question posed towards the female gamers? It is the fault of your players if they don't know that the proper way to treat a female player is just to ignore the whole double X chromosome thing and treat them like what they are....a person. Women are in fact people. Shocking, I know...

I've never had gender problems with my gaming group. Of the people I know who play D&D, half are female. And maybe this is just the fact that me and my gaming group are all teenagers, and many among my generation have a tendency to ignore your silly gender roles, but the girls are just as likely to be powergamers, or good roleplayers, or spouters of dirty jokes. And most of my group is quite capable of roleplaying the opposite gender realistically. We all have vivid imaginations and can see past our geeky or emo faces and see the character.

Back on subject, if a player cannot act properly around a female player, it is in no way her fault. I know there are a lot of socially awkward people who play D&D, but they need to grow up if there default reaction toward the presence of a woman is to gawk at her. If they can interact with other guys, then they have no excuse to not be able to interact with a female player. I'm sure people will call me naive and not knowing the real world, but if the real world has to be full of gender problems "just because", I'll stick to my own little fantasy world with one of the best groups I've ever gamed with.


----------



## Gailbraithe (Jul 12, 2008)

My group is all guys, none of whom are married, half of whom are single.  As the DM, I'm sort of loathe to invite women to the game, simply because it does change the dynamic, and I like the dynamic just the way it is.

I got a nice little lesson in this just the other week.  We couldn't play at our regular place, so we played at another player's house.  His girlfriend was home, and she kept coming into the room and watching us play.  Everytime she would walk into the room, the whole mood in the room would shift.  It wasn't a subtle shift either.  It was notably jarring.  

Mostly because we're a pretty raunchy group, and the adventure I'm running deals with slavers a lot, and so my slave girl miniatures have been making frequent appearances, with much accompanying off-color comments.  It's Dennis Mize's Slave Auction (so they're little naked slaves), and was given to me by one of my player's ex-girlfriends -- the same player whose house we were playing at.  His girlfriend noted the minis on the table, and he started bad-mouthing me as immature and sexist for using them.  Just turned instantly into a "Sensitive New Age Guy," trying to make himself look all enlightened and above it.  I've had those minis (which again, _his ex gave me_) for years, he's been playing with me for years, first time he's ever mentioned it.

Another of my players, a Coastie who is also our group's only Republican, recognized what was going on with the hosting player, and went from his normal blue jokes into territory I found kind of offensive, mostly I think in an effort to drive the girlfriend from the room.  It was just tense all around, and I didn't wnat to deal with it.  I just wanted to play.

I've seen some people suggest that if it changes the dynamic, then 
the DM just needs to "deal with" the "problem player" and help them "get over it."  I would like to suggest instead that as a DM, my job is to run the freaking game, *not* to play therapist to my players and help them sort out their various personal issues.

I have never understood why some people think the DM is supposed to take such a patronizing and condescending position with his or her players as to be responsible for "slapping a bit of sense into a few of the boys/men" to quote one user.  I've played with some asinine DMs, but never one so obnoxious as to think they had the right to "slap some sense" into their players with regards to entirely non-game issues like how they relate to women.

Also, it'd be nice if people could stop throwing out the "fat virgins living in basements" thing anytime anyone asserts a preference for "guy's night out" style gaming.  That's a cheap shot.


----------



## LeaderDesslok (Jul 12, 2008)

My personl experience has it all based on age. When I was in my 20s and had a female player the guys would either tone down their usual playing style or hit on the chick in the group. In our 30s this was less of an issue, as most of the players were either married or in serious relationships. One guy was your classic shy guy/antisocial type and couldn't relate well, and actually dropped out of the group because one of my regulars had his wife join our group.

I'm 41 now and really, I find no problems with having a woman in our group when I'm playing with folks of +/- 5 years or so. This really seems to be an issue of the maturity of the players in your group.

I might be an exception to the rule, as I have never had a problem with women in our adventuring group, either as a DM or a player. I have found that they tend to add a lot to the roleplaying aspect of the game versus "roll-playing." I, for one, enyjoy the roleplaying versus dice rolling.


----------



## AtomicPope (Jul 12, 2008)

SavageRobby said:


> Wow. You haven't been at our table. We might even be worse when the women show up.
> 
> Of course, all the womenfolk at our tables (usually 2-3, to the 5-6 guys) are wives/girlfriends, and we're also all social beyond gaming (dinners, holidays, movies, board games, shopping, etc). Also, most of us are mid-to-late 30s and fairly stable, so that might be part of it.
> 
> ...



Are you sure you're not in my gaming group?  

This describes my 3e group dynamic.

OP - if you're gaming with women that get offended easily then just drop them from your group.  We had to drop a guy who didn't like WoD because it offended his religious sensibility.  No big deal.  Not everyone gets along.  If your hetero life-mates can't deal with women gaming then they need to grow up.  Hiding them from women only amplifies their social ineptitudes when the next female gamer arrives.

I suggest you take them to a strip club and let them get it out of their system.  After seeming professional tail a gamer girl won't be so impressive.  That is, if they're old enough to go to a strip club


----------



## AtomicPope (Jul 12, 2008)

ki11erDM said:


> The biggest problem I have found is they tend to get pregnant.



I don't see how this is a problem.  I'm in a game right now where our rogue is pregnant (in game and out of game - both accidental ).  She still plays.  Granted, there will be a time when she can't play for a few weeks.  But I don't see how this is any different from me getting 20 extra hours each week for the next two weeks and missing my games.

Neither is planned.  Both are unavoidable.  It's life interfering with the game.  After 20 yrs of gaming I guess I'm used to it.

On my Saturday game (which is on hold for two weeks because of me) our rogue's wife just had a baby - gratz   He couldn't make it for the next two weeks.  When this problem at work picked up (I'm there now), it actually worked out for everyone.  Nobody wanted to brave the Caves of Chaos without their Striker.  Now they won't have to.


----------



## LeaderDesslok (Jul 12, 2008)

AtomicPope said:


> I suggest you take them to a strip club and let them get it out of their system.  After seeming professional tail a gamer girl won't be so impressive.  That is, if they're old enough to go to a strip club



I recommend everyone check out a strip club at least once. For the philosophical/scholastic benefits only of course.


----------



## AtomicPope (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow!  I just realized that both the rogue in my 3.5 game and the rogue in my 4e game have accidental pregnancies.  Those scoundrels!


----------



## Rel (Jul 12, 2008)

When running a game with female players, I just have a firm rule that nobody is allowed to flirt with them or make crude sexual references to them except me.


----------



## Ourph (Jul 12, 2008)

I game with a group of guys who are all in their 30's to early 40's.  Most of us are married, some of us have kids.  We all like the chance to get away from the ladies and spend some time with just us guys.  I am certain it would change the dynamic if we started including wives/girlfriends in the mix and we don't have any desire to add a stranger to the group, male or female.

That said, I've played in games with female gamers before and it's never been a problem (unless the lady in question just wasn't a very nice person, which has happened on occasion).  I have seen the "drooling male" thing happen a few times (in fact, I've also seen the "drooling female" thing happen too) and it's not something I would want to be around, but the people who engage in that type of behavior are usually not people I enjoy being around period, so it's never really been an issue (I wouldn't want to play in a game with them regardless of how they act around the opposite sex).


----------



## Clueless (Jul 12, 2008)

Huh. I haven't noticed anything despite my distinctly feminine genetics ... 

Then again *I'm* the crass one at my table. 


Aka: unless you fancy yourself an armchair psychologist, group dynamics shift anytime anyone of any gender enters a previously established dynamic - sometimes unpredictably for the good or ill. Try it and see how they work. The guys may be themselves and all works well, or may be themselves and turn the new lady off - or they may clean up their act, and become sullen... or then realize they *like* playing cleaner. Best bet is to institute a 'test period' to see how the dynamic works. 

Myself, when I wanted to pull my SO into the group, not because he's my SO but because he's an awesome and hilarious player who I thought would click wonderfully with the group.... first, before any gaming occurred whatsoever: We all went to dinner together. If a new player (of any gender) can hold it together in a normal social environment in public - then you'll generally have a good feel for how they are at the table unless they're the Jekyll/Hyde of gaming. Your established group can express any misgivings after dinner, and you won't have the embarrassment of tossing someone out of the game after bringing them in.

(As a sidenote: He fit in perfectly, and now they're thinking of roping him into GMing when a slot opens in our schedule.)


----------



## Harr (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow, you know your OP really hit home when it brings in a chain of _"I am *definitely* not a nerd but I suspect you may be"_ type of posts. Seriously, some of this stuff is painful to read. The 'gamers coming forward to proclaim they aren't stereotypes but really normal successful people' movement was cool a year and a half ago.. nowadays, a bit played.

For the record, behaving the same way and not adapting your behavior to the people you are with or the situation you are at *is one of the things that defines* the nerdish or socially-misadapted. They are the ones who stay unrestrained and crass and snicker and giggle and tickle each other etc. whether they are with friends, with strangers, in private, in public, with men, with women, etc. This is nothing to be proud of IMHO.

To the OP, *of course* your friends are going to be adjusting their behavior a bit, toning it down, when a new female player joins their group for the first time. *This is normal behavior of normal people and to be expected.* If you talk to them a bit beforehand, make it clear that she wants to be treated like 'one of the guys', and if she indeed follows up on that and shows that she wants to, then, eventually, *with time*, maybe a month or two of sessions, everyone will get familiar with the situation and relax back into their old roles.

But just like that, right off the bat, no awkwardness or politeness or deference, at even the first session a female joins? That would be very weird, very incongruent, and I would not nor would I recommend getting anywhere near guys who would act, or who would think it's normal to act like that. I find the _"If you're not totally comfortable with a woman from the second you meet her then you're a nerd who needs to get laid"_ to be extremely naive and wishful thinking, to say the least.


----------



## Clueless (Jul 12, 2008)

Rel said:


> When running a game with female players, I just have a firm rule that nobody is allowed to flirt with them or make crude sexual references to them except me.




... Does that apply to me too?


----------



## Rel (Jul 12, 2008)

Clueless said:


> ... Does that apply to me too?




You mean "will I flirt and make crude sexual remarks at you" or "will I let you flirt and make crude sexual remarks at other chicks in my games"?

Nevermind.  The answer is Yes!


----------



## Lurks-no-More (Jul 12, 2008)

Amy Kou'ai said:


> Men and women aren't that different, in my opinion.  That said, I think the _expected roles_ of men and women in normal society construe each gender as a fundamentally different species.




This. Men, women, whatever: we're all people.


----------



## Aus_Snow (Jul 12, 2008)

Woe dude, you fo' weal?

I don't get it, quite honestly. I mean, is there an 'it' to get? So, your group doesn't fare well gaming with chicks. Damn, that sucks. And?


----------



## AtomicPope (Jul 12, 2008)

LeaderDesslok said:


> I recommend everyone check out a strip club at least once. For the philosophical/scholastic benefits only of course.



Nobel Laureate Richard Feynman went to strip clubs.


----------



## shilsen (Jul 12, 2008)

From my personal experiences with female gamers, ranging from having a single woman in a group of men to groups predominantly composed of women to all-women groups, I have to agree with the OP about the way women change the dynamic of a D&D group. I've invariably found women to be extremely crude, loud, bossy, far too focused on hack-and-slash, liable to discuss sexual subjects at the most inappropriate times, likely to take great pleasure in embarrassing the male group-members, and generally disruptive to the otherwise genteel and well-behaved nature of an all-male group.


----------



## Wik (Jul 12, 2008)

After reading only the first page, and responding only to the OP:

It's entirely about your group.  But, god, I can't even imagine a game without female players.  I haven't gamed with at least one female at the table in a looooong time (at least four or five years).  I've even run with groups that are entirely female, myself excluded.

Seriously, 98% of my games have been in at least partial female company.

Mind you, almost all of my outings involve female company, so that could be the difference, as others have pointed out.  About the only time it's "Guy only" is when it's poker night, and that's just because none of my female friends are big on poker.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 12, 2008)

I always refer to wizards (historically the most difficult of all classes to play) as *her.*
  I do this as a compliment to women.

  Thus ...

  The fighter/wizard confronts the dragon.  She stands her ground against this powerful foe.  
  The dragon looses his flaming blast at her, but her Fire Shield spell protects her (she makes her save for no damage.)  All around her the very stones glow, warp, and melt, but she stands indomitable and unharmed amidst the inferno.
  She draws her vorpal sword, and with her free hand lets loose with a Lightning Bolt.  The cavern rocks from the brilliant blue blast, thunder booming incessantly and deafeningly from one end to another, and the dragon shrieks in pain, the cry shattering stone, the combined sound bringing avalanches of stone down, plumes of dust rising all across the cavern.
  The dragon brings his mighty claws to bear, slashing with crushing force, biting with teeth that would crush 10 suits of armor, delivering a tail smash that would pulverize stone, but the heroine's Stoneskin deflects all these attacks, the girl standing unmoved and defiant against the onslaught.
  Now the girl leaps forward, and with a sweep of her vorpal sword, beheads the great dragon.  Not even his massive dragon scales are proof against her weapon, keenest of all swords, and so the great monster is downed, finished by the girl, never to trouble the land again.
  The girl climbs to the top of the corpse of the beast in triumph, regarding it coldly, looking around at the great treasure, satisfaction in her face that justice has been meted out against the one who stole and killed, who brought his wages of blood here, who has now been made to pay for his crimes.


----------



## CharlesRyan (Jul 12, 2008)

One of my two current gaming groups is all male; I'm pretty sure it's the first time I've been in an all-male group since high school (which was a long, long time ago, I'm afraid!). There is a slightly different dynamic, but it doesn't seem to be strongly gender-related. (I think it has more to do with being a light-hearted, after-work game in which we tend not to take the characters or setting too seriously.)

Personally, I think any weal factor comes from a lack of intergender experience among the players--or perhaps from a guys-only poker night attitude toward gaming. Not because of any inherent issue with RPGs and women.


----------



## Kaisoku (Jul 12, 2008)

My wife, and every one of her female friends she had back home, or that she's made since she moved up here (Canada), are very much on the raunchy side. I would not hesitate to make off-color jokes or fake insults, or silly flirtations amongst any of them.

Right now, the game group I'm in is only guys, but mostly due to scheduling, and because my wife and I are currently pregnant, so she's got a lot more on her mind that goofing off in a game.


If you are looking to have the least impact to the game as possible, then my suggestion for adding ANY person to the group (male or female), is to only add a person that everyone already knows and will be comfortable roleplaying around.

If you want to give it a shot, let people know that you are going to introduce someone on a trial basis... see how the group does with this new person.

I've had a lot of different people join groups and change the whole dynamic. From Rules Lawyers not understanding that a game had house rules and raising hell mid-game... to weaseling players that wanted to "cheat the system" by coming up with ideas outside the rules and being surprised and upset that the DM used reasonable logic for their "super powered" concept.
I've seen disinterested people that have slowed the campaign down... or even people that have felt that others rubbed them the wrong way in the first impression and soured the experience for everyone involved from that point on.


This isn't a female only thing. Adding anyone new to the group can cause problems. The only possible difference would be that there's possibly more "sexual" disruption involved (people vying for attention in non-game related ways).

Like someone in this thread said... do this on your own time, keep it in your pants during the session.


----------



## Doug McCrae (Jul 12, 2008)

Down my way, women are the main source of aggression, sodomy references, belching and excessive alcohol consumption.


----------



## fusangite (Jul 12, 2008)

Vanuslux said:


> He said female friends, not female co-workers.



Yeah. I saw that.







> You can't pick your co-workers (unless you're the one doing the hiring) but you do have some control over who your friends are. As a general rule, I don't keep friends in my life that I have to wear different masks around.



"Mask" is a strong word. There is no element of deception in the fact that hanging out with different groups of friends accentuates different aspects of one's personality. It must really suck that you can only enjoy one way of interacting socially and everything else feels like deception to you. All I can say is that you're really missing out. The world is full of people who are interesting in different ways, who interact in different ways and like different things -- the capacity to sincerely like and engage with a wide range of people is an unqualified benefit to those who cultivate it within themselves.

There is nothing duplicitous about the fact that I really enjoy throwing nice dinner parties with high-end food where we talk about politics, religion and social theory and but that I also enjoy a trip to my neighbourhood bar to exchange funny stories about sex and drinking with the boys.







			
				Kaisoku said:
			
		

> This isn't a female only thing. Adding anyone new to the group can cause problems.



Agreed. The social class and education level of my players has been the source of group problems in the past, not to mention clashes of personality that all GMs deal with. Sexual orientation has also been an issue. I think if you change the group mix in terms of any of the identity categories, it can be an issue.


----------



## Toben the Many (Jul 12, 2008)

I game in two groups who have female players, and I've gamed with female players for quite some time now. 

I don't see any "woe" to gaming with girls or women. Usually, I like it, because they tend to approach problems differently than males do. Because of that, the games we play tend to follow different storylines or get different perspectives. 

That said, the group I used to game with literally had a "no girls" policy, because it was all a group of married guys with kids who treated their gaming sessions as a sort of "poker night" with the fellas. And there's nothing wrong with that. 

I think it depends on the reason that you are gaming. If you're gaming to have male bonding time, then yes, having a woman there might be awkward. It may even be that you are doing that subconsciously and not even know it. 

However, with the two groups that I'm in now, it is totally not a problem. But gaming with those two groups is not seen as male bonding time. Instead, it's seen as more of a group social activity like bowling or tennis for everybody.


----------



## Lizard (Jul 12, 2008)

Sounds to me like the problem is (grossly immature) male gamers, not female gamers.


----------



## Phlebas (Jul 12, 2008)

to the OP

I'll just add my 2c as a 30 something gamer who hasn't had an all male game since university and has brought in a few new role-players to existing groups.

1 - female gamers are good gamers, or bad gamers, or indifferent gamers. it depends on the person.

2 - female gamers swear lots and make crude jokes and never swear and get easily offended. or they will be somewhere in between. it depends on the person. Generalities normally aren't.

3 - adding new people to groups will change things. if you play beer and pretzels games and add a teetotaller than this will change more than if you invite one of your drinking buddies. Thats life and the gender of the person is only one of many factors that will determine the success or failure of the new group

4 - if you worry about the affect on the game, especially if its well established then try re-boot. when everyone has new characters and is equally checking out new rules then the newcomer is less obvious and gets to make their own dynamic

5 - if you want to keep the game as is, but also try new people then get 2 games going. keep the old one as is and then start a new one in parallel with some/none/all the players from the old game. You will probably find that this keeps the old gamers happy, and quite often gives you a running in period to sort the group dynamics out. you can always then move to one or the other game with the entire group (My regular group does this a lot as it gives the DM's a chance to rotate and avoid burn out)

6 - stop over analyzing and just invite her to join. The more you expect issues the more chance you have of taking molehills and turning them into mountains.  Its just a game.....


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 12, 2008)

Lizard said:


> Sounds to me like the problem is (grossly immature) male gamers, not female gamers.



There seems to be a second category - "Poker Night" groups. Groups that want the men to be among themselves. Of course females pose problems there. But you can avoid that if the entire group is aware of the "Poker Night" nature of their games. Or if they consciously - as a group - to get away from that, or create a second group that's not "Poker Night".

But maybe you're right - that group doesn't really have a problem if they are self-concious about what they're doing. The immature male players are more of a problem...


----------



## Xath (Jul 12, 2008)

I've never played in a group that didn't have at least one female.  

However, I've noticed that the groups that tend to have the more awkward (I will never learn to spell that word) behavior towards female gamers tend to be the younger crowd.  My current group is a full 1/2 women.  We average in our mid-late 20's.  We're mostly couples, but none of our female players are "the girlfriend" stereotype.   The groups that had the most "discomfort" for me were mostly those I found through my college gaming club, but after a few sessions, it seemed that everyone got comfortable again and we all returned to a normal social dynamic.


----------



## Xath (Jul 12, 2008)

ki11erDM said:


> The biggest problem I have found is they tend to get pregnant.




I...seriously hope you're trolling.


----------



## ki11erDM (Jul 12, 2008)

Xath said:


> I...seriously hope you're trolling.




Only about 30% trolling.

There are more important things in life than D&D and bring those more important things to the table it can only distract from the game. Is that bad? Sure! Is that good? Sure! It is life. But to pretend that those events don’t change things is just being incredibly naive.

What really sucks is when you have a couple playing in your game and they have a child. They both want to play, but someone has to watch the child… or you have to pay for a baby sitter… or your gaming group becomes the baby sitter. And it is up to your group to decide if that is ok. But if you only have 6 hours a month to set aside to play and hang out with your friends you may or may not think babysitting during that time is a good thing.  EDIT:  And this is why I am hoping DDI will rock.

But to be fair the ‘girlfriend’ playing D&D to hang out with her man is the most common issue. Everyone should be playing because they like to play… not to impress someone. Once you have people playing for that reason it does not matter if it is a guy or girl you are going to have issues. But that has been well covered in other posts and threads.


----------



## Silver Moon (Jul 12, 2008)

ki11erDM said:


> The biggest problem I have found is they tend to get pregnant.



Sounds like you're playing a different type of role-playing than the rest of us.   

Sorry, couldn't resist.   Seriously though, I've been playing in groups with both genders for 27 years now and greatly prefer it to single-gender games (that I've played at conventions).    For a long-running campaign stretching several years of both character and player time I think that having participation from both male and female players and characters makes for a more realistic game.


----------



## knightofround (Jul 13, 2008)

Last year, one of my housemates ran an a girls-only campaign. As a guy it was interesting to watch from the sidelines; there was much more roleplaying and less hack-n-slash. I was surprised though that the campaigns were just as violent as the all-male campaigns, and the language level was pretty much the same.

From my own experiences with D&D, I believe that women make slightly better DMs than men. In general they tend to be more organized, more story-orientated, and have an easier time roleplaying the opposite gender when need be. It's not that men make bad DMs, it just seems that male DMs tend to trend towards the side "I'm here to come close to killing the PCs" rather than "I'm here to create an awesome story".

And I think men make slightly better PCs, as they seem to be able to stay more focused and are have better party cooperation. Not that all female gamers are self-centered, and easily bounced off-topic, but I've tended to see it more in female gamers than male gamers on average.

Of course, both of these are VERY slight generalizations. From what I've seen, women who choose to participate in D&D often have tomboyish tendancies anyway. Even if they are especially girly, when they come to the table they play more like a tomboy -- even in the all-female campaign I mentioned above, most of the players were very girly IRL.

What is really interesting is how few female game designers are out there. I wonder if one of the main reasons RPGs have traditionally male-dominated is because the games have been designed for a more male (ie hack-n-slash) environment.


----------



## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 13, 2008)

knightofround said:


> It's not that men make bad DMs, it just seems that male DMs tend to trend towards the side "I'm here to come close to killing the PCs" rather than "I'm here to create an awesome story".




I'm here to create an awesome story and kill your PCs.  And I'm all out of story.


----------



## Clueless (Jul 13, 2008)

Amy Kou'ai said:


> I'm here to create an awesome story and kill your PCs.  And I'm all out of story.




Can I yoink that for my next game? I think my Shadowrun crew might get the hint if that's on their side of the screen next week...


----------



## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 13, 2008)

Clueless said:


> Can I yoink that for my next game? I think my Shadowrun crew might get the hint if that's on their side of the screen next week...




Why, of course.  Here, I'll license it to you:

*I'm here to create an awesome story and kill your PCs. And I'm all out of story.*

/* This quote is free textware. It comes without any warranty, to
 * the extent permitted by applicable law. You can redistribute it
 * and/or modify it under the terms of the DWTFYWT Public
 * License, Version 2, as published by Sam Hocevar. See
 * http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/COPYING for more details. */ 

There, all nice and legally tidy.  Good luck with your game!


----------



## dystmesis (Jul 13, 2008)

I only play on the internet, and as we all know, there are no girls on the internet.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 13, 2008)

dystmesis said:


> I only play on the internet, and as we all know, there are no girls on the internet.




So, you mean those spammers that infest our boards, they are all lying?


----------



## Mercule (Jul 13, 2008)

My gaming group consists of three married couples.  There are no issues with women folk.


----------



## ThirdWizard (Jul 13, 2008)

Girls have cooties. You don't want _cooties_ do you??


----------



## Korgoth (Jul 13, 2008)

ThirdWizard said:


> Girls have cooties. You don't want _cooties_ do you??




If I manage to get the cooties out of the dungeon with me, are they worth any XP?


----------



## shieldheart (Jul 14, 2008)

Harr said:


> Wow, you know your OP really hit home when it brings in a chain of _"I am *definitely* not a nerd but I suspect you may be"_ type of posts. Seriously, some of this stuff is painful to read. The 'gamers coming forward to proclaim they aren't stereotypes but really normal successful people' movement was cool a year and a half ago.. nowadays, a bit played.
> 
> I find the _"If you're not totally comfortable with a woman from the second you meet her then you're a nerd who needs to get laid"_ to be extremely naive and wishful thinking, to say the least.




Yep, this thread has succeeded to bring in those people who think of themselves as knowledgeable, insightful or enlightened who are really just bullies.  Seriously, some really judgmental posts.  Duly noted, there were some constructive posts, for which I am grateful, but most people have deviated from the heart of the question at hand.

I guess the answer to my question is that having a girl at your table will give you a sense of superiority over gamers who don't.  I think I'm going to go ahead and keep it an all guys thing.  Thanks for the input everyone.


----------



## Eric Tolle (Jul 14, 2008)

Black gamers: Weal or woe? 
________________________________________
Having played d&d almost exclusively with an all white group, the concept of a black gamer is somewhat foreign to me. In the dozen or so sessions I've played with black players, I've found that black gamers, by virtue of their race alone, change the gameplay experience dramatically. 

Most of the time it's a headache.

Hear me out now, I've got nothing against black players. They're awesome and everything. The problem arises mostly with the white players whenever there's a black present. They almost always act differently. Some guys will hold back from being their normal selves and restrain themselves from cracking potentially offensive jokes where they otherwise wouldn't hesitate. Some guys will go out of their way to try to impress the black, in game or otherwise. I've wanted to pull out my hair during sessions where guys spent the entire 3 hours chatting up the black player, distracting him and everyone else from the session and holding it up.

Has anyone else had similar experiences? How do you deal with it? I want to include a few black friends into my gaming sessions but I don't want the atmosphere of the group to change.


----------



## reveal (Jul 14, 2008)

It's weal three out of four weekends.


----------



## shieldheart (Jul 14, 2008)

Eric Tolle said:


> Black gamers: Weal or woe?
> ________________________________________
> Having played d&d almost exclusively with an all white group, the concept of a black gamer is somewhat foreign to me. In the dozen or so sessions I've played with black players, I've found that black gamers, by virtue of their race alone, change the gameplay experience dramatically.
> 
> ...




Clever.  But I'm not white.  

I'm not going to defend the political correctness of questioning the benefits of having a female gamer at the table as I'm sure it really isn't politically correct.   I believe there is a distinction between men and women.  I don't think there is a difference in the intrinsic worth between a man or a woman but that doesn't make them the same in all aspects either.  If that makes you think of me as sexist, that's fine.  I know what I am.

Thanks for editing my post and replacing all instances of the word female with black and male with white.  It's really clever how you painted me as racist with just a few keyboard strokes.  

People are different.  I've made no comments about the relative worth of any people.  Where I'm from, cultural differences are recognized and celebrated.  I don't pretend that everyone is the same.  Shame on you for your hackneyed attempt at calling me out.


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Jul 14, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> If that makes you think of me as sexist, that's fine.  I know what I am.




I'm pretty sure we all know what you are 

If it's possible to do that to your post, then pretty clearly, there's a problem. If you have to cry "political correctness" at those who disagree with you, then pretty clearly, there's a problem. His calling you out is valid. Claiming it's hackneyed is deeply ironic, because your opinions are extremely hackneyed. Also, I was born and raised in Hackney, so that term is kind of hilarious to me. It should be noted too, that being non-white does not automatically make one a non-racist/sexist.

I should probably start a humour-tagged "Nerdy gamers: weal or woe?" thread. Hmm, gonna try your post with nerds, lets see how it goes. Wait for the edit!

Edit - 







			
				Fictional person said:
			
		

> Having played d&d almost exclusively with an all normal, socially-well-adjusted group, the concept of a nerdy gamer is somewhat foreign to me. In the dozen or so sessions I've played with nerdy players, I've found that nerdy gamers, by virtue of their nerdiness alone, change the gameplay experience dramatically.
> 
> Most of the time it's a headache.
> 
> ...




I know, I could do more.


----------



## DM_Jeff (Jul 14, 2008)

I apparently have a very good bunch of gamers, an equal mix of men and women in both groups, and we all know we're all getting a better game because of it.

We used to have one fellow who'd go through a masssive change to 'get noticed' the moment a woman would sit down to play. But then, he was a jackass.

-DM Jeff


----------



## MrApothecary (Jul 14, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> I'm not going to defend the political correctness of questioning the benefits of having a female gamer at the table as I'm sure it really isn't politically correct. I believe there is a distinction between men and women. I don't think there is a difference in the intrinsic worth between a man or a woman but that doesn't make them the same in all aspects either. If that makes you think of me as sexist, that's fine. I know what I am.




So why is your original post posed in such a way that you make it sound like it is the fault of female players that your male players have social interaction issues?


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 14, 2008)

MrApothecary said:


> So why is your original post posed in such a way that you make it sound like it is the fault of female players that your male players have social interaction issues?



This is true. I read the original post and thought, "Wait, it's the players' fault here that there's any problem, not the womens'."

Every time I read a post that says "should I let women in my game?" I also mentally replace "women" with "blacks" or "Jews" just to see if it's short-sighted or offensive. I end up with a pretty consistent answer. I know the original poster complained when someone else did this just up-thread, but the point is valid: this is what it's like. You're complaining about women as a generic, faceless group instead of addressing specific behavior that occurs between specific people. You can't do that and not be accused of trying to tar people with the same brush.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jul 14, 2008)

I've seen more problems arise in game dynamic between women and women than between men and women.

Catty jealousy is a terrible thing... especially when you're an overly dramatic freshman in college.  Lordy, those were some crazy days.

Luckily, I've grown up a lot.  Now, my husband and I game as a social activity with our friends.  Our dynamic is built upon the collective desire to hang out and have some fun.


----------



## Eric Tolle (Jul 14, 2008)

Honestly, if you're offended, you might want to step back and really look at your post.  I could have used humans, or dolphins, or whatnot; the point still stands that the original post is pretty damn ridiculous.

Seriously guy, this isn't the 1960s any more.  You can treat individuals like individuals, and judge them on theri own merits, whether they're men, women, black, white, delphinian, or nerds.  

It's how I'd like to be treated anyway.


----------



## palecur (Jul 14, 2008)

The original post evokes two linked pieces of immediate advice:

Imprimis: Stop playing with sweaty, desperate virgins
Secundus: Stop being one yourself

Following those two pieces of advice will be a service, not just to you and your playgroup, but to the hobby and larger society as a whole.


----------



## Doug McCrae (Jul 14, 2008)

I agree with Ruin Explorer, gaming with nerds is a bad idea. The Monty Python-quoting alone is intolerable. But if it gets to the stage of comparing Babylon 5 to DS:9 then physical violence is the only recourse.


PS Firefly sucks.


----------



## shieldheart (Jul 14, 2008)

MrApothecary said:


> So why is your original post posed in such a way that you make it sound like it is the fault of female players that your male players have social interaction issues?




I'm pretty sure if you took the time to read the post, you'd see that I make a point of blaming the male gamers for a lot of these social interaction issues.



Eric Tolle said:


> Honestly, if you're offended, you might want to step back and really look at your post.  I could have used humans, or dolphins, or whatnot; the point still stands that the original post is pretty damn ridiculous.
> 
> Seriously guy, this isn't the 1960s any more.  You can treat individuals like individuals, and judge them on theri own merits, whether they're men, women, black, white, delphinian, or nerds.
> 
> It's how I'd like to be treated anyway.




I don't recall judging anyone on any merits.  If you want to say that there are no complications when a poker-esque group of guys have a girl thrown into the mix, that's fine.  Calling me racist for contemplating the possibility is low and uninspired.

Don't throw your generic philosophy at me like I don't get it.  I treat people the way they deserve to be treated.  Just cause you're spouting anti-racist whistleblowing garbage at me doesn't mean I condone racism.  That's just dumb.



palecur said:


> The original post evokes two linked pieces of immediate advice:
> 
> Imprimis: Stop playing with sweaty, desperate virgins
> Secundus: Stop being one yourself
> ...




Look at post #68.  You're not clever, original or funny.


----------



## Doug McCrae (Jul 14, 2008)

palecur said:


> The original post evokes two linked pieces of immediate advice:
> 
> Imprimis: Stop playing with sweaty, desperate virgins
> Secundus: Stop being one yourself



Oh come now. Sweaty, desperate virgins are the rock upon which our whole hobby is built.


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 14, 2008)

palecur said:


> The original post evokes two linked pieces of immediate advice:
> 
> Imprimis: Stop playing with sweaty, desperate virgins
> Secundus: Stop being one yourself
> ...



Palecur, welcome to the boards. I'm sure you read the rules. One of the most important is *don't insult people.* Your post is completely out of line.

It's okay if you don't agree with Shieldheart. Discuss the issue. But don't make it personal, because that'll get you booted.


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 14, 2008)

Shieldheart, I know you were blaming the guys, but the initial post really didn't sound that way. Anyways, my best advice would be to take each person on their own merits.

I've gamed with women for decades; even my high school group had a girl in it, and that was back in '81. Personally, I find the game is a lot more fun with a mixed perspective.


----------



## palecur (Jul 14, 2008)

Piratecat said:


> Palecur, welcome to the boards. I'm sure you read the rules. One of the most important is *don't insult people.* Your post is completely out of line.
> 
> It's okay if you don't agree with Shieldheart. Discuss the issue. But don't make it personal, because that'll get you booted.




*shrug* the original post was comically insulting in its manchild cluelessness itself, but as you will.


----------



## Gailbraithe (Jul 14, 2008)

I don't want to walk into a firestorm, but I'm not convinced by some of these analogies that are being tossed around.

The three analogies I've seen tossed out are:

women:men::nerds:normal people
women:men::Jews:non-Jews
women:men::blacks:whites

I'm not really sure I buy any of these as meaningful analogies, particularly in the situation we're discussing here.  That's a very simplistic way of looking at things that I think glosses over some very non-trivial differences between the relationships described above.

If one surveys this thread, you'll notice that there is a strong correlation between having positive experiences of mixed gender groups and playing with married couples.  I've experienced this myself -- the only time mixed genders hasn't introduced an additional set of headaches to running the game was the occasions in which the female player in the group was married to or in a pre-existing relationship with one of the male players.

I think it's a little ridiculous to immediately leap to insulting armchair psychology, or veiled accusations of sexism, simply because some people choose not to be ideologically blind to the existence of sexual tension.

Any small, mixed gender group composed of _single_ people is going to experience some degree of internal sexual tension, unless the group is by some freak coincidence entirely composed of asexuals and celibates.  It doesn't require any sexism at all to find the soap operas that sexual tensions within 

Like I know that if a remotely attractive and personable single woman who was a good gamer joined my current (all male) group, there would be problems.  Because 3/5ths of the group is single, and that entire 3/5ths of the group thinks it would be _awesome_ to meet an attractive and personable single woman into role-playing games.  It wouldn't be her fault that we (I'm one of the three, and I know I couldn't resist) would turn into a bunch of hyper-competitive jackasses and get totally caught up in trying to impress her, but it would happen.


That doesn't mean that we're socially maladjusted, or a bunch of sexist goons.  And it doesn't mean that I'm a sexist jerk for thinking I'd sooner toss a live grenade in my game room than invite a pretty single girl to play with us.  We're just normal people, and normal people are attracted to people with similar interests, and normal people get jealous and competitive and stupid when love and sex are on the line.  And that is counter-productive to the sort of light entertainment I look for in gaming.  Maybe some people would find real art growing out that sort of tension, but I never wanted to be a member of Fleetwood Mac.

So there's a HUGE difference between between what's implied by shieldheart's comment and what's implied by various people's clever reworkings.  Racial tension and sexual tension are two very different animals, and comparing the two is -- IMHO -- rather ridiculous.

The only sexist element to this question is the way it is always phrased as a question of women playing, but this is almost inevitable when the hobby is so skewed towards male participation.   Any debate occurring within a subculture that skews 80% male is going to end up skewing towards a male perspective.  If the audience for rpgs skewed 80% female, the debate would be all about whether or not men create problems in rpg groups.​


----------



## shieldheart (Jul 14, 2008)

Piratecat said:


> Shieldheart, I know you were blaming the guys, but the initial post really didn't sound that way. Anyways, my best advice would be to take each person on their own merits.
> 
> I've gamed with women for decades; even my high school group had a girl in it, and that was back in '81. Personally, I find the game is a lot more fun with a mixed perspective.




The post was intended to be controversial.  I was hoping for some debate, maybe a good point or two.  I didn't think the responses would be so negative.  A lot of people seem to get off calling me a bigot when all I wanted were opinions.

There were some constructive posts sharing positive experiences with female gamers which I was hoping for.  There were some posts telling me to get laid, which I expected.  What I didn't expect were the accusations of sexism and racism.  Hate crime is a pretty big deal and while my post was controversial, I certainly did not slander women or any other groups of people.

Overall, I'd say I'm pretty disappointed with the moral ineptitude of some people who have the gall to accuse me of hate crime over so benign a post.


----------



## Eric Tolle (Jul 14, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> I'm pretty sure if you took the time to read the post, you'd see that I make a point of blaming the male gamers for a lot of these social interaction issues.



Well there's an argument for them to get over it, soonest.  Aren't you the guy who wears the Viking hat?  instead of coddling them, you need to slap them a few times, slam them into their seats and roar "YOU WILL PLAY WITH WHOEVER I TELL YOU TO PLAY WITH!"

Do it!  It's good for them.



> I don't recall judging anyone on any merits.  If you want to say that there are no complications when a poker-esque group of guys have a girl thrown into the mix, that's fine.  Calling me racist for contemplating the possibility is low and uninspired.




If they're emotionally over the age of 17, then no, there shouldn't be any problems.  Just slap 'em a round a few times, and start the game.  I'd have about as much patience with people like that as I would with, well, you.



> Don't throw your generic philosophy at me like I don't get it.  I treat people the way they deserve to be treated.  Just cause you're spouting anti-racist whistleblowing garbage at me doesn't mean I condone racism.  That's just dumb.



No, I didn't call you a racist.  You're the one standing up waving your arms and screaming "I AM NOT A RACIST!  I AM NOT A RACIST!"  I mean, this is sad: it's a perfect example of why both satire and metaphor are dead concepts.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 14, 2008)

Doug McCrae said:


> PS Firefly sucks.



*gasp*  Oh no you didn't!!!


----------



## Eric Tolle (Jul 14, 2008)

Dire Bare said:


> *gasp*  Oh no you didn't!!!




Did he go there?

Oh yeah, he went there.

I'm sorry everyone, the current topic for this thread will have to be put on hold, while we pile on the Firefly hater.


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Jul 15, 2008)

Gailbraithe said:


> That doesn't mean that we're *socially maladjusted*, or a bunch of sexist goons.




Actually, imho, and no personal insult to you, your own words, but that is _precisely_ what it means. If you can't (or rather, *won't*) keep yourselves under control, then I have no idea how you even manage to do work, or operate in any kind of situation where they might be single attractive women involved and the main objective isn't to hit on them.

It's mind-boggling to me. We've played with single women in a group full of single guys before, but because we were, y'know, grown-ups, whilst there might have been sexual tension, no-one became a "hyper-competitive jackass". You're just copping out (in a discussion about people attempting to cop off, hehe) of any responsibility for your own behaviour, and saying "OMG gurls turn dudes into ragin' dogs and they caint help it none!". I mean wth? Are you from another planet? I've met guys who refuse to keep themselves under control, and you know what, I wouldn't game with them. I can understand being concerned about changes in social dynamics, but the idea that attractive women turn all men into howling dogs instantly, which you specifically endorse is insulting to both genders.

*shieldheart* - Pretending to be surprised at your reception when you seemingly intentionally phrased your post in the most sexist way reasonably possible seems pretty damn silly to me. If you wanted debate, you could have phrased it very differently.

Also, "moral ineptitude"? What does that even mean?

*Doug McCrae* - Preach it brother!


----------



## shieldheart (Jul 15, 2008)

Eric Tolle said:


> Well there's an argument for them to get over it, soonest.  Aren't you the guy who wears the Viking hat?  instead of coddling them, you need to slap them a few times, slam them into their seats and roar "YOU WILL PLAY WITH WHOEVER I TELL YOU TO PLAY WITH!"
> 
> Do it!  It's good for them.
> 
> ...




Are you one of those DMs who think his opinion matters more than those of his players?  I'm not going to 'slap' my players around and tell them what to do or who to play with like I know better than them what makes a good gaming experience.

If you want to invite girls to your poker night, go for it.  I never said no one should, I was just wondering how they've fared.  I know plenty of guys who would prefer a guy's night in and gripe, if only jokingly, when other guy brings in his girlfriend.  You might want to copy that last line and replace "girlfriend" with "black friend".  It might pass for what you consider satire/metaphor.

You say that you never called me racist, but you brought the issue of race into this thread.  Enlighten me, what message were you trying to get across?


----------



## Imp (Jul 15, 2008)

So every time I see this thread pop up again I want to start a new one entitled "Male gamers: Weal or woe?" and honestly by now I really just want the voices to stop.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 15, 2008)

Well, the last time I role played with a female, becuase of the limits on Paladin's wearing magical helmits, I was the black guy and she was a school girl. 

Heh.

I like playing in multi-ethnic, multi-gender groups. They are simply more interesting than playing with nothing but a room full of dumpy white guys. 

But then I like the company of women in general.


----------



## shieldheart (Jul 15, 2008)

The Grumpy Celt said:


> But then I like the company of women in general.




Careful, some of the guys in here might construe that as sexist.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Jul 15, 2008)

I ran a short campaign for a group of college girls. It wasn't really any different from other gaming groups, except for the one night when they were crocheting while role-playing.

Also, none of my male players have ever shown me their nipple piercings. 

I had to put a stop to that. The crocheting, not the other thing.


----------



## Korgoth (Jul 15, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Yep, this thread has succeeded to bring in those people who think of themselves as knowledgeable, insightful or enlightened who are really just bullies.  Seriously, some really judgmental posts.  Duly noted, there were some constructive posts, for which I am grateful, but most people have deviated from the heart of the question at hand.
> 
> I guess the answer to my question is that having a girl at your table will give you a sense of superiority over gamers who don't.  I think I'm going to go ahead and keep it an all guys thing.  Thanks for the input everyone.




Dude. If the question is put thus: "Korgoth, you are able to handle the presence of human females with maturity and proper social graces; does this make you feel superior to those who cannot?" then I guess my answer is yes. I mean, it actually is better to be able to be functional when around human females. If a human male is unable to comport himself when merely in the presence of human females, I submit that this state of affairs is uncontroversially suboptimal. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

Repeat after me: "The Tex Avery Wolf is not a role model."


----------



## Gailbraithe (Jul 15, 2008)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Actually, imho, and no personal insult to you...




See, now this is where I find this kind of debate just gets really contentious.  You're really being very insulting and judgmental, and it's hard not to take offense at that.  I was being a bit self-deprecating with the "hyper-competitive jackasses" comment, and I guess that was too subtle.  You took it way too seriously, and in the process you've said   some pretty outrageous things.  At any rate, I find your comments really uncalled for and presumptive.  Try to keep it civil.

My question to the above poster would be: If you can't flirt with and pursue someone you find attractive and share common interests with in a pleasant social setting without violating social decorum, then when exactly can you do it? Is everyone supposed to meet through personal ads and singles bars?

It just seems pretty ridiculous to me.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 15, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Repeat after me: "The Tex Avery Wolf is not a role model."




When did that happen?

(Grumpy clears his throat)

Having played D&D almost exclusively with an all solitary group, the concept of other gamers is somewhat foreign to me. In the dozen or so sessions I've played with other people, I've found that other people, by virtue of their breathing alone, change the game play experience dramatically. 

Most of the time it's a headache.

Hear me out now, I've got nothing against other people. They're awesome and everything, they know how to physically open a book a search for the information they need, learn the system quickly, and can tell jokes with the best of them. The problem arises mostly with the other people whenever there's another living person present. They almost always act differently. Some living gamers will hold back from being their normal selves and restrain themselves from producing potentially offensive sounds and smells where they otherwise wouldn't hesitate if they were totally alone. Some people will go out of their way to try to relate to the other person, in game or otherwise, through their knowledge of contemporary events, or with stories of their work or family life. I've wanted to pull out my hair during sessions where people spent the entire 3 hours discussing sports with the other person, distracting them and everyone else from the session and holding it up.

Has anyone else had similar experiences? How do you deal with it? I want to include a few other people into my gaming sessions but I don't want the atmosphere of the group to change.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jul 15, 2008)

Shieldheart: EricTolle wasn't accusing you of racism. He was drawing an analogy. By replacing the word 'woman' with 'black' he was hoping to point out a new way for you to see your initial post. I leave it to you to try and work out what that is. For my part: I don't read your OP as sexist. Badly phrased but not sexist.

I do think it's sad that you wont invite your female friends to join your game because of what you have read on this thread, whether personal attacks or not. Your friends suffer because some total strangers have misconstrued your initial post. Ignore those misconstrued replies. There has been some very good advice posted above, take that on instead.

I'm about to have a woman join my (all male) group and I'm looking forward to it: I just prefer mixed social groups. (The other female gamers I know don't like my GM style, not enough hack'n'slash. Chicks and violence, hey?)



> Amy Kou’ai wrote:
> Men and women aren't that different, in my opinion. That said, I think the _expected roles_ of men and women in normal society construe each gender as a fundamentally different species.
> 
> But in all seriousness -- come on, we play D&D. We're hardly in normal society.




LOL. But I agree wholeheartedly about the gender roles society expects of us. Too sad. I say we should all be metrosexuals. 



> MrApothecary wrote:
> I've never had gender problems with my gaming group. Of the people I know who play D&D, half are female. And maybe this is just the fact that me and my gaming group are all teenagers, *and many among my generation have a tendency to ignore your silly gender roles*, but the girls are just as likely to be powergamers, or good roleplayers, or spouters of dirty jokes. And most of my group is quite capable of roleplaying the opposite gender realistically. We all have vivid imaginations and can see past our geeky or emo faces and see the character.




the bold highlighting is mine.

Glad to see hope for the next generation. (Although I don't like the oldster bashing, you young whipper-snapper.  )

cheers all.


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Jul 15, 2008)

Gailbraithe said:


> See, now this is where I find this kind of debate just gets really contentious.  You're really being very insulting and judgmental, and it's hard not to take offense at that.  I was being a bit self-deprecating with the "hyper-competitive jackasses" comment, and I guess that was too subtle.  You took it way too seriously, and in the process you've said   some pretty outrageous things.  At any rate, I find your comments really uncalled for and presumptive.  Try to keep it civil.
> 
> My question to the above poster would be: If you can't flirt with and pursue someone you find attractive and share common interests with in a pleasant social setting without violating social decorum, then when exactly can you do it? Is everyone supposed to meet through personal ads and singles bars?
> 
> It just seems pretty ridiculous to me.




You know what seems ridiculous to me? People painting a very distinct picture of themselves on the internet, then getting upset when people believe them and take them at their word! I mean dude, don't say if it you don't mean it on the internet. Sarcasm is nigh-impenetrable, and what you may think is an "extreme and ridiculous" picture of yourself may be utterly believeable to others. I've heard people say a thousand times worse _and and mean it_.

If you can't portray yourself or others accurately, how can you expect to have a meaningful debate? Subtle, you weren't. You were crystal clear. You just didn't mean what you said.

You appear now to have completely revised and even reversed your position, suggesting subtle, polite and well-mannered flirting instead of being a living embodiment of the Big Bad Wolf a la Tex Avery.


----------



## Gailbraithe (Jul 15, 2008)

Ruin Explorer said:


> You appear now to have completely revised and even reversed your position, suggesting subtle, polite and well-mannered flirting instead of being a living embodiment of the Big Bad Wolf a la Tex Avery.




  Okay, whatever, not going to argue the point with you.   I just...you're implying that assuming by "hyper-competitive jackasses" meant acting like a _cartoon character_ which is itself a _ridiculous exaggeration_ is a reasonable assumption.  And yeah, I disagree.  I think it's rather insulting assumption.

Anyways even polite, subtle, well-mannered flirting can quickly turn a night of fun and light gaming uncomfortable when there are multiple people involved.  I don't want to end up flirting with the same girl my best friend is flirting with.  There's nothing good that can come of that.  Someone is going to get their feelings hurt.


----------



## palecur (Jul 15, 2008)

Gailbraithe said:


> Anyways even polite, subtle, well-mannered flirting can quickly turn a night of fun and light gaming uncomfortable when there are multiple people involved.




Only if everyone involved is emotionally 17.



Gailbraithe said:


> I don't want to end up flirting with the same girl my best friend is flirting with.  There's nothing good that can come of that.  Someone is going to get their feelings hurt.




You guys seriously need to grow spines if this is that huge of a deal. There is more than one cute girl who plays RPGs and is relatively sane and unattached. You do your best to catch someone's eye, it doesn't work out, well, that's a drag. You move on. These exclusionary rules where you can't make eyes at Cynthia because Gary has some kind of dibs on trying to date her are not going to do anything but create horrible drama.


----------



## MrApothecary (Jul 15, 2008)

shieldheart said:


> Careful, some of the guys in here might construe that as sexist.




Oh please, we aren't being _that_ sensitive.

So, anyway, you intended for your original post to be controversial, and now you are suprised when we called you on it? Yeah, that doesn't make sense.


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Jul 15, 2008)

Gailbraithe said:


> I think it's rather insulting assumption.




Either you haven't spent long enough in the real world, or I've spent too long out there. There are many men who would be flattered by such a comparison. I keep my distance from such people, but they're out there. 



Gailbraithe said:


> Anyways even polite, subtle, well-mannered flirting can quickly turn a night of fun and light gaming uncomfortable when there are multiple people involved.  I don't want to end up flirting with the same girl my best friend is flirting with.  There's nothing good that can come of that.  Someone is going to get their feelings hurt.




As noted by others, this is only true if you're all emotionally immature and passive-aggressive about it. I mean, is this how you behave in other environments? If you both like the same girl, do you make a secret mental competition of it? That doesn't seem very mature to me.

The point is: you could simply choose not to do this. So could your friends. Saying you "couldn't resist" is a cop-out. It's exactly the same as saying "I don't have any control over my behaviour!", and it's on the road towards saying it's the girl's fault that you don't. You do have control. If you don't, then yeah, I don't think you should play with girls. I don't think them being married is going to help, because why would you magically be able to control yourselves there when you couldn't before? The wedding ring isn't a magic item you know. What if she was only in a relationship, not married?

Further, would you really do this session after session? Wouldn't you get over yourselves and remember why you were there? How badly, exactly, are you and your friends feelings going to be hurt when she decides she likes one of you or, more likely from the behaviour described, none of you? I mean again, it seems like you're suggesting immaturity and even maybe a bit of emo-type behaviour should be casually accepted and in no way fought against. I'm not sure that's righteous.


----------



## andrina (Jun 10, 2009)

shieldheart said:


> I guess the answer to my question is that having a girl at your table will give you a sense of superiority over gamers who don't.  I think I'm going to go ahead and keep it an all guys thing.  Thanks for the input everyone.





I am female, I play D&D, and I am excellent. I would only add to the awesomeness of your campaign by being involved in it. 

If you now choose to not try inviting any female friends you punish only yourself and your group of friends.

Yes, it may be awkward and will most certainly feel at least a little different, having a new person (regardless of gender) in your game, but past two sessions if you all can't get over it specifically for the fact that they happen to be female then the maturity you espouse to have needs to be re-evaluated.

I'm not saying you're immature, I didn't take extreme offense at your original post. I'm now taking offense that because you got upset at how some people responded to your query your response will be "well, I'm not gonna invite any girls so I can spite those guys!"

I think this makes little sense. I'm pretty awesome and kind of a big deal and happen to be a girl, some other girls are like this and will totally add to your campaign, and some will annoy the heck out of you. We're just people, not a different species.


----------



## Piratecat (Jun 10, 2009)

Well spoken.


----------



## Rel (Jun 10, 2009)

andrina said:


> I'm pretty awesome and kind of a big deal and happen to be a girl...




Cool!  I'm awesome and kind of a big deal too.  We should do lunch sometime!


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 10, 2009)

andrina said:


> We're just people, not a different species.




I always suspected this!


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Jun 10, 2009)

"You've never heard of the New Hampshire Darkmagics?  Well, we're kind of a big deal."


----------



## Piratecat (Jun 10, 2009)

Rel said:


> Cool!  I'm awesome and kind of a big deal too.  We should do lunch sometime!



It's true. He is. And so is his even-more-awesome wife.

I recommend to anyone taking Rel up on this offer that you make him pay. It keeps him humble.


----------



## Mark (Jun 10, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> It's true. He is. And so is his even-more-awesome wife.
> 
> I recommend to anyone taking Rel up on this offer that you make him pay. It keeps him humble.





_Crock-blocker_


----------



## reveal (Jun 10, 2009)

andrina said:


> I'm pretty awesome and kind of a big deal and happen to be a girl...




Two out of three ain't bad.


----------



## Mark (Jun 10, 2009)

reveal said:


> Two out of three ain't bad.





I've heard rumors you were against awesome.


----------



## Desdichado (Jun 10, 2009)

andrina said:


> I am excellent.





andrina said:


> I would only add to the awesomeness of your campaign by being involved in it.





andrina said:


> I'm pretty awesome and kind of a big deal



Yeah, well at _*my*_ gaming table, we have a modesty requirement.  Sorry.


----------



## Aberzanzorax (Jun 10, 2009)

That's okay.

At my table we only allow awesome gamers.

You can have girl parts or boy parts, but if you don't have awesome parts, you are OUT.


----------



## Desdichado (Jun 10, 2009)

Aberzanzorax said:


> You can have girl parts or boy parts, but if you don't have awesome parts, you are OUT.



I hesitate to ask, but... 

How do you know their parts are awesome?  Do you inspect them regularly for quality control?


----------



## gamecat (Jun 10, 2009)

Perhaps it's a sign of how stagnant my social life has become; but I haven't met any female gamers in some time. The last time I did have a female gamer in my group (it was seven years ago, in high school), she created a crepuscular silence in the game, as the whole group (myself included) disintegrated into "competitive jackasses".

Nowadays, I think it would work different, but I don't know any she-gamers with an interest in D&D. My girlfriend spends more time in front of the PS3 than I do, and she's a voracious magic player, but D&D just confuses her and she has no interest.

I think it's all a matter of maturity. If you're seventeen years old and your hormones are surging, yeah, I think it can be woe (on the fault of both genders). Add some age and wisdom, and I think someone can appreciate the differing viewpoints offered by differing genders.


----------



## Dyson Logos (Jun 10, 2009)

Most of my groups (and I game in several groups) are mixed-gender groups. 

That said, one of my groups that meets every second Sunday is an all-guy group, and was set up specifically to be such. Everyone in the group (except for myself) is married or in a long-term relationship and the event is a "Guys' evening in". Three of the players' wives spend the day together also (as their "girls' night out") but not at the game. 

I'm not going to call the wives sexist for wanting a "girls' night out", so turning around and calling the group sexist for wanting a "guys' night" seems a bit off. 

One of the groups I'm peripherally involved in but don't game with is an all-girls group. They game once a month on Saturday, and have two of the players from my Gamma World game in their group, as well as one of the players from my Tuesday Night B/X game.


----------



## kitsune9 (Jun 10, 2009)

shieldheart said:


> Having played d&d almost exclusively with an all male group, the concept of a female gamer is somewhat foreign to me.  In the dozen or so sessions I've played with female players, I've found that female gamers, by virtue of their gender alone, change the gameplay experience dramatically.
> 
> Most of the time it's a headache.
> 
> ...





This hasn't been my experience. The females in my group were the wives of the players. One played D&D just to be with her husband and wasn't too rules saavy, the other was really into fantasy and wanted to play, but she needed the kind of "emotional" roleplaying experience such as the romance, chivalry, etc. instead of combat or dungeon crawling. Any kind of combat really irked her and she often got bored where she would break out her laptop or sewing kit. Over time, her investment in the game decreased as she eventually divorced her husband and hated the other gamers.

I've played with a few other female gamers that were into gaming, but the overall impression from them was they were definitely into the roleplaying aspect and were turned off by combat. Similar to girls who like movies but want to go see "date movies" instead of an action film or big-budget whatever. I'm not being stereotypical though, because it was just my experience playing with these particular ladies. I'm sure that there are other female gamers out there that like to blow stuff up and murder everything in sight a la Grand Theft Auto and female gamers in between.


----------



## Piratecat (Jun 10, 2009)

Dyson Logos said:


> That said, one of my groups that meets every second Sunday is an all-guy group, and was set up specifically to be such. Everyone in the group (except for myself) is married or in a long-term relationship and the event is a "Guys' evening in". Three of the players' wives spend the day together also (as their "girls' night out") but not at the game.



I've run an almost all-female (one guy) group before as well. Fun campaign. One woman in particular grabbed the role of sword-jocky with both hands and refused to let go. Several of those players were new to the game, and it was a fun and safe way to teach them the rules. 

In the two campaigns I'm now running, 6 of the 12 players are women.


----------



## Mark (Jun 10, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> One woman in particular grabbed the role of sword-jocky with both hands and refused to let go.





Should someone be banned for replying, I hasten to point out that making such a statement could be considered entrapment.


----------



## Pbartender (Jun 10, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> I've run an almost all-female (one guy) group before as well. Fun campaign. One woman in particular grabbed the role of sword-jocky with both hands and refused to let go.




My wife has historically taken the same role out of the hands of all the guys in our group.  All of her characters have a tendency to charge straight to the front line and hack the enemy to little bitty pieces when it comes to combat.



I love my wife.


----------



## Aberzanzorax (Jun 10, 2009)

Hobo said:


> I hesitate to ask, but...
> 
> How do you know their parts are awesome? Do you inspect them regularly for quality control?






Awesome parts must be apparent while gaming with clothes on. No inspection required!


----------



## Desdichado (Jun 10, 2009)

Pbartender said:


> My wife has historically taken the same role out of the hands of all the guys in our group.



The role of sword-jockey?  Were you _trying_ to lace that post with as much innuendo as you could possibly come up with?


Aberzanzorax said:


> Awesome parts must be apparent while gaming with clothes on. No inspection required!



Well, at least I've managed to skeeve you out by making you confront the image of your gaming group dropping trou for you to examine their parts in detail.  My work here is done.


----------



## Pbartender (Jun 10, 2009)

Hobo said:


> The role of sword-jockey?  Were you _trying_ to lace that post with as much innuendo as you could possibly come up with?






Yes.  Yes I was.


----------



## Hejdun (Jun 10, 2009)

I think the only real time it would be an issue is if it's the girlfriend/wife of one of the players, the gaming sessions are your version of "Poker Night" (i.e. an excuse to hang out with the guys).


----------



## drothgery (Jun 11, 2009)

Holy thread necromancy, Batman .

More seriously, I've always had at least one female player (and usually just the one) in every long-term tabletop game I've played in. The only all-guys group I've played in was a short-term SWSE game I ran for a few weeks, and that's only because the one woman who usually plays in our group doesn't play non-D&D games. So I really wouldn't know what D&D's like without a girl at the table.


----------



## CharlesRyan (Jun 11, 2009)

kitsune9 said:


> This hasn't been my experience . . . I've played with a few other female gamers that were into gaming, but the overall impression from them was they were definitely into the roleplaying aspect and were turned off by combat.




I'd be careful about generalizing this experience. I've certainly known women (and men) who fit that description. But I know plenty of women who are much more into the combat than the fluffy stuff.

I played Over the Edge last night (how's that for a blast from the past?). It was wild, wacky, rules-light fun. But one player had a terrible time--didn't know what to do, couldn't get into the light-hearted wackiness or the over-the-top characters, and just wanted some combat and some crunchy rules. Hated the experience; just wanted to get back to our 4E game and some monster-bashing. She was a woman.


----------



## PaulofCthulhu (Jun 11, 2009)

Previously I've run for an all-female group in _Call of Cthulhu_.

It was excellent. Good charaterisation, creative thinking, on plot.

Recommended.


----------



## Korgoth (Jun 11, 2009)

charlesryan said:


> i played over the edge last night (how's that for a blast from the past?). It was wild, wacky, rules-light fun. But one player had a terrible time--didn't know what to do, couldn't get into the light-hearted wackiness or the over-the-top characters, and just wanted some combat and some crunchy rules. Hated the experience; just wanted to get back to our 4e game and some monster-bashing. She was a woman *who had obviously fallen under the tachyonic control of the throckmorton device*.




Fixed it for you.


----------



## danbala (Jun 11, 2009)

Philotomy Jurament said:


> Edit - I've never really considered a "guys poker night" game.  I wouldn't want to give up the regular heterogeneous group, but I bet an all-male game would have a different vibe.




You might want to try it. I have been gaming on and off again in different periods of my life. When I was in my 20s our groups always included wives/girlfriends.

But we are now in our low 40s, our girlfriends have become wives and the wives are not very interested. The group has turned all males anf frankly the "guys night out" vibe is probably the chief draw at this point.


----------



## PetriWessman (Jun 11, 2009)

Hmph. I honestly don't remember when I last ran a game for an all-guy group. My current regular game group consists of 3 girls and 2 guys, and I don't recognize anything like the OP is describing. Everyone plays wildly different characters (and no, there is no stereotyping based on gender there that I can figure out). Everyone is relaxed, and the talk can get more than a bit raunchy at times without anyone getting uncomfortable. We used to play Exalted, that's on temp break now and I'm running a Pathfinder minicampaign using Burning Wheel rules, after that I plan to run Orpheus (or maybe Geist) for a while, and then return to Exalted. So no game type stereotypes that I can figure out, either.

I think it's more a case of age than gender. The OP and his group sounds pretty young. We're in the 35-45 age bracket, and that makes a hell of a difference to attitudes as compared to teenagers.

...or maybe it's location. I'm in Finland, and there are a lot of female roleplayers here (much due to popularity of LARPs, which also trickles over to tabletop).


----------



## PetriWessman (Jun 11, 2009)

CharlesRyan said:


> I'd be careful about generalizing this experience. I've certainly known women (and men) who fit that description. But I know plenty of women who are much more into the combat than the fluffy stuff.




Yeah. While statistically women are probably more prone to be interested in roleplaying and social maneuvers, and guys more in combat, when you get down to specific game groups and individuals those statistics don't mean much.

Of the three girls in our group: one plays a low-compassion humorless Lookshy sorcerer-engineer turned ninja demon summoner in Exalted and a doomed exile Elf in Burning Wheel. One plays a commerce-fixated ex-Dynast in Exalted and a disease-ridden (male) guttersnipe in BW. One plays a young  (male) "best swordsman in Creation (in training)" hothead in Exalted and a old(ish) witch in BW.

I'm failing to see any of the sterotypes, there. In fact, the most pacifist character in our Exalted game is played by a guy


----------



## Philotomy Jurament (Jun 12, 2009)

Philotomy Jurament said:


> *Since [high school], and continuing into the "married with children" phase, I don't think I've ever had a group that didn't include members of both sexes.*



Huh.  That's no longer true.  The group I'm in, now, is all men.


----------



## Dice4Hire (Jun 12, 2009)

Philotomy Jurament said:


> Huh.  That's no longer true.  The group I'm in, now, is all men.





My impression is most groups are all men. I know mine is and has been for a decade


----------



## CharlesRyan (Jun 12, 2009)

The thing is, _everybody's_ experience is narrow. Unless you move around a lot or are a fanatical con-goer, you've probably gamed with the same dozen people (or maybe the same _four_) for years. And when other gamers have joined that clan, they've been brought in by the existing members, so are likely to be similar in outlook.

In other words, for every one person who says "I've always played in male-only groups, therefore it seems to me that's the norm," there's someone else (like me, for instance) who says "I've always played mixed-gender groups, therefore that seems like the norm."


----------



## Rel (Jun 12, 2009)

I think that the bottom line is that, if you've got players that you are happy with, it doesn't matter what gender they are.  I played for years with a couple of women in our group and it was fun.  For the last several years it's been just the guys and we certainly didn't feel like we were missing out by not having a woman in the group.  Now my wife is playing with us again and I don't think we're missing out by not having it be just the guys.


----------



## NewJeffCT (Jun 12, 2009)

I have been playing D&D for about 30 years now, though there were a few times I was not gaming (early to mid 90s the longest stretch)... I've probably gamed with nearly 100 guys between middle school, high school, two colleges and 3 college campuses, and several jobs.  I've gamed with 4 women in all that time, including 2 in my current group.  I have generally found that women in the group have a calming effect on most of the guys (most being the key there.) no matter if they're into the role playing or combat.  

In fact, the two women in my current group are a human archer cleric who has a special bow that allows her to "shoot" her healing spells, so she spends most combats shooting party members to heal them and not killing bad guys.  The other woman is playing a tank of a goliath barbarian who has more hit points when raging than any other 2 party members combined.  So, she gets into the thick of things and is also a damage sponge due to high hit points and poor AC.  So, quite different characters. 

And, I did mean a calming effect on most guys.  About 10-11 years back, we had a new gamer join our group and he spent most of his time there leering at the one woman we had in the group - so much so that she was uncomfortable with him there.  And, if you knew this woman, you would know it would take a LOT to get her to complain. But, that was the guy's problem and not hers.


----------



## Similkameen (Jun 12, 2009)

shieldheart said:


> Having played d&d almost exclusively with an all male group, the concept of a female gamer is somewhat foreign to me.  In the dozen or so sessions I've played with female players, I've found that female gamers, by virtue of their gender alone, change the gameplay experience dramatically.
> 
> Most of the time it's a headache.
> 
> ...




If you want to include female gamers then talk to your players now, and see what everyone wants.  It will change the dynamic, and there is sexual tension when you add them.  It can be really good, if everyone is open to the change of new players, women, and possibly people learning the game.  I liked the suggestion in an earlier thread of running a parallel game to get the changed group up and going before disturbing the existing one.

I have recently been invited to join my son's game (I first started playing DandD in the 80s with a large singles mixed group).  He consulted his friends ahead of time, and they have been cool with it.  I have found some of the ageist comments in this thread annoying.  I'm not sure why guys who are nerds or virgins or young should have any more difficulty playing well with the other gender.  That has certainly not been my experience.  

It seems to me that the advice of keeping any sexual attraction off the gaming table is the way to go.

And yes I've seen good female gamers, and recently was at a con with an upstaging female who slowed the game down completely.  Disappointing to me and the guys there who were very patient with her.


----------



## Zinovia (Jun 12, 2009)

Funny, somehow every gaming group I have been in has had at least one female gamer.


----------



## PaulofCthulhu (Jun 19, 2009)

Look! Proof that ladies play the game!







OK, well a drawing.


----------



## Imperialus (Aug 19, 2009)

I think that poor Mr. Bryson would unequivocally say that girls and gaming can only lead to Woe...  Or at least major head trauma.



> Cedar City » When Logan Bryson suddenly awakened in the early morning of May 30, he thought he was having a bad dream until he realized someone was beating him with a hammer.
> 
> "I didn't realize I was being attacked until I fell to the floor with my arms up to defend myself," said Bryson, who took the stand Monday in 5th District Court in Cedar City during the preliminary hearing for Zachery Frank King, charged with beating Bryson and Daniel Shokrian at Shokrian's home in this southern Utah city.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rechan (Aug 19, 2009)

I've had two instances where the presence of women caused problems.

One most recently was that a player wouldn't play because a girl was floated as being included. Because he had promised his wife that it would just be a "Guy's night out" and there wouldn't be any girls, and so he couldn't reneg on that. So two potential players (a couple) couldn't join. That guy really wound up to be a real problem person anyhow. 

Another, I was running my first campaign. I had an insane female NPC. The players found out after they fought her that her insanity was due to miscarrying her child; the way that the bond between mother and child's souls had mingled had just broke her. This severely upset the female player in the group. She accused me of not being mature, of handling a delicate issue with crassness, and that I should be careful with handling things. The topic had never occured to me as being too sensitive to breach as part of an NPC's background. 

Other than that, I've had positive experiences gaming with women. Or had conflicts that delt with their personalities, as opposed to anything relating to gender.


----------



## N0Man (Aug 19, 2009)

Imperialus said:


> I think that poor Mr. Bryson would unequivocally say that girls and gaming can only lead to Woe...  Or at least major head trauma.




That has nothing to do with girls and gaming... It's two guys both interested in one girl.

It might surprise you to discover that outside of gaming, sometimes interactions between 2 guys both being interested in 1 girl can lead to tension, betrayal, hurt feelings and lots of other unpleasantness.

Gaming has little to do with it.  It could have been a basket weaving class, a book club, or a night at the bar.  There is nothing special about D&D that brought this about, and to suggest otherwise is as absurd as claiming wearing trenchcoats lead to school shootings.


----------



## weem (Aug 19, 2009)

I currently PLAY in 3 different 4e games. One of them has 2 females (and 4 of us guys). The GIRLS are the ones who instigate most of the "filthy" topics and get things sidetracked along those lines so there is no worrying about what to say or not say around them - they cross the line more than we do, haha.

With that said, all experiences I have had with female gamers have been just fine - no more issues with them then there would be with the guys.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 19, 2009)

While most of the gamers at my tables or beside me at the tables of others have been male, the ladies I've gamed with have run the same gamut of behaviors and attitudes I've found in the guys.  Some I'd play with at the drop of a hat, some I never want to see at a gaming table ever again.

So IME, gender doesn't really seem to matter in terms of their good or bad influence on the game.


----------



## N0Man (Aug 19, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I've had two instances where the presence of women caused problems.
> 
> One most recently was that a player wouldn't play because a girl was floated as being included. Because he had promised his wife that it would just be a "Guy's night out" and there wouldn't be any girls, and so he couldn't reneg on that. So two potential players (a couple) couldn't join. That guy really wound up to be a real problem person anyhow."




That's not something unique to gaming, that's just a weird situation.  If his wife wouldn't trust him to be around a couple, then that's a bit unreasonable...  It wasn't the presence of a woman that caused the problem, it was the indirect effect that a woman who wasn't even playing had on the game.



> "Another, I was running my first campaign. I had an insane female NPC. The players found out after they fought her that her insanity was due to miscarrying her child; the way that the bond between mother and child's souls had mingled had just broke her. This severely upset the female player in the group. She accused me of not being mature, of handling a delicate issue with crassness, and that I should be careful with handling things. The topic had never occured to me as being too sensitive to breach as part of an NPC's background.




That's a tough one...  I thinks he overreacted, but at the same time it seems to display that you might lack perspective on the subject.  Some women are touchy on some subjects, and this can be one.  Miscarriages are unfortunately far more common than many people realize.  I also kind of wonder if you are confusing a miscarriage with a stillborn.


----------



## N0Man (Aug 19, 2009)

And on the main topic...

I don't understand why female gamers are such a big topic of conversation.  People talk about them like they are mythical, rare, and/or volatile.

You may find this hard to believe... but females are people too.  Some like to game, some don't.

I haven't played in a single session of any roleplaying game that was all male in nearly 10 years.  Every one had at least 1 female.  I've played in some D&D sessions where there were more females than males.  It was business as usual.  There was no crazy drama.  There were no pillow fights.  It was just rolling dice, roleplaying, killing monsters and taking their stuff.


----------



## Rechan (Aug 19, 2009)

N0Man said:


> it was the indirect effect that a woman who wasn't even playing had on the game.



That's what I meant by bringing it up.  That the mere indirect presence of women can do that. 

But that's merely because it's people and their weird relationships getting in the way of gaming.



> That's a tough one...  I thinks he overreacted, but at the same time it seems to display that you might lack perspective on the subject.  Some women are touchy on some subjects, and this can be one.  Miscarriages are unfortunately far more common than many people realize.




At the time, I just wanted to toss in something tragic and reasonable for the NPC than "Well she's just freaking nuts". I honestly didn't think it'd be a problem.

But then, it's tough to tell what a touchy subject for someone is until you hit it. Especially when it's something in their past/family they don't tell anyone. 

To use a less touchy subject to illustrate my point, if you have a "Save the princess" plot, the player might get very touchy because their sister was once kidnapped. You just don't know that. Obviously I'm avoiding more "mature" topics, and it's not uncommon mature topics hit a nerve. 



> I also kind of wonder if you are confusing a miscarriage with a stillborn.



*checks wiki*

No, definitely a miscarriage. It was caused when the NPC was caught in a rock slide.


----------



## Rechan (Aug 19, 2009)

N0Man said:


> And on the main topic...
> 
> I don't understand why female gamers are such a big topic of conversation.



Not to hit the ol' stereotype, but the geek/nerd stereotype involves being socially underdeveloped and having trouble talking to girls/getting uncomfortable in their presence.

But then, I also think it's because a lot of people play D&D here. Now I'll hit the generalization dead horse: I imagine WoD players are far more familiar with girl gamers than say, D&D players.


----------



## Netherstorm (Aug 19, 2009)

It seems like any thread about women gamers immediately turns in a bunch of guys proudly proclaiming that they play rpgs with girls and have _for such a long time~!_ 

I have had more terrible experiences with female gamers than I have with males. I like lists, so here's a list of the lovely ladies of gaming in my area:

1. Is batsh*t crazy and became extremely jealous of a second female in the group. She went out of her way to treat that girl poorly, even refusing to give her cookies that she baked for everybody. 
2. Is batsh*t crazy and has a severe substance abuse problem. She freaked out when I asked the group not to drink while I DM'ed and I had to boot her when she decided to curse me out and send me insane emails. She refused to give me back some stuff I'd left at her place as "revenge".
3. Is kind of awesome. Quiet, nice, just a lot of fun.
4. Had a boyfriend but was trying to cheat with any members of the group who would look at her.
5. Is batsh*t crazy and grinds games to a halt by insisting on investigating things that very clearly have nothing to do with the adventure. She demands that wells be described accurately and takes apart every chair in every dungeon-type setting, convinced that there's going to be secret stuff in the hollowed-out legs of the chairs.
6. Only plays when the married guy she's obsessed with plays, and then spends the whole game trying to get his attention with "witty banter".
7. Is incredibly overbearing and decimated the interest of a fledgling group with a pair of awful adventures she insisted on running from memory. After an hour of her husband talking to us about the power of a dom/sub relationship, we were scrambling for the door. That group had 2 males and 4 females.
8. Is batsh*t crazy and lives off of other people's kindness (aka sleeps on their couch until they kick her out). She played "dark characters" who drank your blood and _really knew about the world_ and stuff. 
9. Was really great. But unfortunately, this was a game at a store where the players were mostly high school boys. All the guys immediately had a crush on her and spent the whole time trying to impress her and get her to go get pizza with them.
10 - 1 billion. Was only there because her boyfriend was. She was bored and distracted players with conversation about non-game stuff. One of these bored girlfriend types even showed up to our game, then left, and came back in a tiny mini skirt and fishnet leggings in an effort to titillate us. 

Not that guys aren't just as bad or worse. It's that for me, decent female players are very hard to come by.

As a quick counter-point, I right now know a lot of guys playing "joke name characters". I'd rather drink AIDS then sit down at a table and join a d&d group that includes the 3rd level swordmage named "Jon Bon Jovi".


----------



## ProfessorCirno (Aug 19, 2009)

Netherstorm said:


> As a quick counter-point, I right now know a lot of guys playing "joke name characters". I'd rather drink AIDS then sit down at a table and join a d&d group that includes the 3rd level swordmage named "Jon Bon Jovi".




_But what if it's a bard...?!_ ;p


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 19, 2009)

First, Welcome to the boards!



Netherstorm said:


> It seems like any thread about women gamers immediately turns in a bunch of guys proudly proclaiming that they play rpgs with girls and have _for such a long time~!_




Second, I can't speak for anyone but me, but personally, its been spotty.  I've been in the hobby since '77 and didn't play alongside a woman until ten years later.  There were a few that popped up in the late 80's.

The next one popped up around 1992 or so.

Then nothing until around 2000, and none since 2004.



> I have had more terrible experiences with female gamers than I have with males.
> _<snip>_
> Not that guys aren't just as bad or worse. It's that for me, decent female players are very hard to come by.




Third, those aren't entirely consistent statements...



> As a quick counter-point, I right now know a lot of guys playing "joke name characters". I'd rather drink AIDS then sit down at a table and join a d&d group that includes the 3rd level swordmage named "Jon Bon Jovi"




Fourth, that is your right, but why bring it up?

Besides... what if the player is playing Jon Bon Jovi after he passed through a dimensional portal (a la Joel Rosenburg's "Guardians of the Flame" novels...or the D&D cartoon) with his similarly transposed buddies, Vin Diesel and Wil Wheaton?


----------



## CharlesRyan (Aug 19, 2009)

N0Man said:


> Business as usual.  There was no crazy drama.  There were no pillow fights.  It was just rolling dice, roleplaying, killing monsters and taking their stuff.




Exactly.


----------



## Desdichado (Aug 19, 2009)

Rechan said:


> That's what I meant by bringing it up.  That the mere indirect presence of women can do that.



Not with people I game with.  Have you considered gaming with people who have rudimentary social skills?


----------



## El Mahdi (Aug 19, 2009)

shieldheart said:


> Having played d&d almost exclusively with an all male group, the concept of a female gamer is somewhat foreign to me. In the dozen or so sessions I've played with female players, I've found that female gamers, by virtue of their gender alone, change the gameplay experience dramatically.
> 
> Most of the time it's a headache.
> 
> ...




_I'm sure some of what I'm going to say has probably already been covered, but I'm not going to read through the plethora of posts in this thread to be certain. So, at the risk of repeating what others may have said..._

First off, I'd like to say that the very fact you're asking this question shows that you've reached a point in your life where you are questioning the immature actions of some of your friends. This is a good thing. It shows that you find such behavior to _not_ be okay. So, the following is more for your players than you.



Every person is significantly different from every other person, regardless of gender. _Every_ person changes the gameplay experience dramatically simply by their presence at a game. Gender has very little to do with it. Every person has a unique set of conceits, values, experiences, and foibles that effect the synergy of a group. Gender is only one part of that unique package, and all in all, IMO the least impacting factor.

The problem isn't female players, the problem is the male players that can't act maturely around a female, or act so immaturely when not around a female that they have no practice acting properly when required. If they feel cramped, or unable to speak freely and tell offensive jokes when a female is around, that's probably a strong indicator they shouldn't be telling such jokes when females _aren't_ around either. It's called Integrity, and is a sign of Maturity. Integrity is doing the right thing, _even when no one is watching_ (or there to hear the offensive jokes).

Saying that a female gamer is the cause of the problem is absolutely no different than blaming D&D for the actions of idiots (Exhibit_A). It's the very same false logic that groups demonizing D&D use.

I have never had similiar experiences, and except for a couple of gaming groups while I was stationed in Korea, I've never participated with gaming groups that didn't have female gamers (not specifically a choice, just the way it happened to work out). In fact they have all been fairly close to 50/50, and I honestly wouldn't have it any other way. The all male groups I participated with in Korea, were probably the least fun of all the groups I've ever participated with (although that's not to say they weren't fun). For me, there is just somehing significant lacking from _"all Male"_ games.

However, the tips for dealing with this situation are very simple:

_First:_ introducing _anyone_ new to a game will change the atmosphere of a group, whether female or not. If all you're looking for is to add someone who thinks, acts, and feels exactly like those already in the group, then respectfully: _What the hell is the point of even bringing in a new player?_ RPG's are a collaborative group activity. If all that's wanted are people as like minded as possible, synergy dies and the game ceases to be a group activity. IMO, I'd rather stay home and watch golf on TV (which I equate to watching paint dry) than participate in a group with no diversity or synergy.

_Second:_ although it shouldn't be necessary, setting down some ground rules may help. Make sure everyone understands this is a group game, not a singles bar. The participating female gamers are there _to play a game_, not be hit on. If your players are having a hard time knowing how to behave and interact with a female player, then have them use the "Sister" rule of thumb. Simply have them view any female gamer as their sister. You can say or do anything you'd do around your sister. If something you want to do or say would be inapropriate around your sister, *Don't Do It!* That should also take care of the problem of trying to impress or chat up the girl in the group (unless one comes from a place or background where hitting on your sister is considered normal).

_Third:_ if none of the above work, I suggest ditching the guys who can't adjust and keeping the female gamers. If they aren't able to act maturely, it may be time for you to move on to more mature pastures. Trust me, in the long run it will be worth it.


P.S.: None of the above is to say that men are necessarily less mature than women, quite the contrary. There are just as many immature women as men. The point is, immaturity has nothing to do with gender, just as gender has very little to do with what is causing problems with your group. The problem is Immaturity, pure and simple.


----------



## pawsplay (Aug 19, 2009)

Similkameen said:


> If you want to include female gamers then talk to your players now, and see what everyone wants.  It will change the dynamic, and there is sexual tension when you add them.  ... It seems to me that the advice of keeping any sexual attraction off the gaming table is the way to go.




And yet gay gamers manage to play together all the time.


----------



## Barastrondo (Aug 19, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> And yet gay gamers manage to play together all the time.




Man, consider the plight of the bisexual gamer. How does he or she ever manage to focus?


----------



## alleynbard (Aug 19, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> And yet gay gamers manage to play together all the time.





You should know we can't control ourselves either.  I can't keep my mind off the straight players or the gay ones. My mind just spins with uncontrolled lust. Every one of our games just turns into a mess as our will breaks and we give in to our, sometimes latent, gay desires.  

The female players just shrug and go watch television for awhile.  

I think I may have seen a movie like this once. If I haven't, perhaps I should make one.


----------



## maddman75 (Aug 19, 2009)

The problem female gamers mentioned - the attention seekers, derailers, and those without the social sense to not make everyone uncomfortable - have nothing to do with gender.  It has to do with gamers.  Its a combination of the geek social fallacy that we have to accept people for what they are, no matter how offensive their behavior, and that escapist games attract people who are socially defective.  

Now don't get me wrong, I love gaming and think that most gamers are by and large awesome people.  But the combination above can lead to a perfect storm of dysfunction, where a broken person seeks an escapist hobby and those playing don't feel comfortable correcting them.  They're no different than the CatPissMen or the guy that leers at your wife all game, or the guy who gets really baked before he comes over, or any of the 'horrible gamer stories' I'm sure we've all heard.  A wise man once told me that gaming with strangers is only a slightly better idea than taking candy from them.

The short version, gamers can be horrible people and the presence of a vagina does nothing to change this.


----------



## alleynbard (Aug 19, 2009)

maddman75 said:


> The short version, gamers can be horrible people and the presence of a vagina does nothing to change this.




I love this sentence. I love it even more when it is taken out of context.


----------



## Pbartender (Aug 19, 2009)

maddman75 said:


> Now don't get me wrong, I love gaming and think that most gamers are by and large awesome people.  But the combination above can lead to a perfect storm of dysfunction, where a broken person seeks an escapist hobby and those playing don't feel comfortable correcting them.




If you haven't read them yet...

Five Geek Social Fallacies


----------



## Rel (Aug 19, 2009)

maddman75 said:


> large awesome people




Is that a fat joke?! 

Man I been workin' out!


----------



## N0Man (Aug 20, 2009)

Netherstorm said:


> It seems like any thread about women gamers immediately turns in a bunch of guys proudly proclaiming that they play rpgs with girls and have _for such a long time~!_




It's not like we're bragging about it or something, just stating a fact.  To some of us, the notion that it's rare enough to be worth this much discussion is strange to us.

To me, it's like discussing whether or not there are females that like Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Football, drinking beer, or math.  In the end, the discussions often end up being tainted with naivety or even sexism.



> I have had more terrible experiences with female gamers than I have with males. I like lists, so here's a list of the lovely ladies of gaming in my area:



I'm sorry to hear that, but anecdotes aren't evidence, otherwise I could also point out that I've never had a problem with any female gamer, though I have only had problems with maybe 4 or 5 male gamers.



> 1. Is batsh*t crazy and became extremely jealous of a second female in the group. She went out of her way to treat that girl poorly, even refusing to give her cookies that she baked for everybody.



And this was because she was a girl?  A guy couldn't be petty and treat specific people in a group badly?  I know for a fact that they can.  I've seen male players be a complete jerk to a specific player because he saw them as a 'noob'.



> 2. Is batsh*t crazy and has a severe substance abuse problem. She freaked out when I asked the group not to drink while I DM'ed and I had to boot her when she decided to curse me out and send me insane emails. She refused to give me back some stuff I'd left at her place as "revenge".



Maybe it had less to do with the fact that she was a female, and more to do with the fact that she had a substance abuse problem.  Being a female isn't required for that.



> 3. Is kind of awesome. Quiet, nice, just a lot of fun.
> 4. Had a boyfriend but was trying to cheat with any members of the group who would look at her.



That sounds like an exaggeration, but putting that aside, I've played in a game where a male player kept hitting on a female player in the game as well.  This isn't unique to females, but just a potential possibility when you mix certain types of people with others with the opposite sex.  It certainly isn't unique to gaming.  I gurantee that there are both men and women who will do this, and in other social situations, say work.



> 5. Is batsh*t crazy and grinds games to a halt by insisting on investigating things that very clearly have nothing to do with the adventure. She demands that wells be described accurately and takes apart every chair in every dungeon-type setting, convinced that there's going to be secret stuff in the hollowed-out legs of the chairs.



Again, what does this have to do with being female.  Gamers play differently, and some gamers obsess over minor details.  I've seen it in males and females.



> 6. Only plays when the married guy she's obsessed with plays, and then spends the whole game trying to get his attention with "witty banter".



Ok, so it's a girl more interested in a guy than the game.  It can happen.  I'd say it can happen from either sex, and it can happen from nearly any kind of social situation.  I know that there have been certain social gatherings that my reason for going was because a certain female would be there.  It's just human nature, and again not really indicative of anything to do with either females or gaming.



> 7. Is incredibly overbearing and decimated the interest of a fledgling group with a pair of awful adventures she insisted on running from memory. After an hour of her husband talking to us about the power of a dom/sub relationship, we were scrambling for the door. That group had 2 males and 4 females.



You've never had a bad male DM?  Then you are quite lucky.  My experience with female DMs is a lot less, I've only known one.  My experience as she was mediocre at combat and some elements of the game, but was absolutely fantastic at bringing NPCs alive.  However, I'm sure they come in many flavors.



> 8. Is batsh*t crazy and lives off of other people's kindness (aka sleeps on their couch until they kick her out). She played "dark characters" who drank your blood and _really knew about the world_ and stuff.



I once had a male DM that alternated between sleeping on the couches of various friends as he was technically homeless a few months.  I also had a female friend that crashed on my couch for months, and she never gamed with me.   I don't find this kind of behavior to have anything to do with being a female or a gamer.



> 9. Was really great. But unfortunately, this was a game at a store where the players were mostly high school boys. All the guys immediately had a crush on her and spent the whole time trying to impress her and get her to go get pizza with them.



And this was the girl's fault?  You have socially inept teenage boys who can't handle themselves around girls, and it's the fault of a female gamer?  I think you are confused at who the problem is in this example.

However, the vast majority of your examples tend to lack perspective.  Most of them have nothing to do with even being female, and the ones that do involve having a female are more about the possibilities when having mixed sexes in any social situation.  They have nothing to do with "female gamers".  Some of the examples even sound borderline sexist.

If you want D&D games to be just a "night with the guys", that's fine.  However, to suggest that female gamers, by the sole quality of being female, are more disruptive and cause more problems than males is absolutely absurd.

I've never had a female player that caused any more problems than average.  The problem players I've experienced have always been males.  I can easily list many disruptive behaviors from male players, but I don't think those are unique to males (and this post is long enough as it is).


----------



## Nellisir (Aug 20, 2009)

N0Man said:


> It's not like we're bragging about it or something, just stating a fact.  To some of us, the notion that it's rare enough to be worth this much discussion is strange to us.



This.  Honestly, given the opportunity, I always try for a 50/50 ratio in my gaming groups.  I've never run a campaign without at least one female player.  I've DMed with at least three couples (all of whom spent more time lovingly backstabbing each other's character than playing kissy-face or something), and with several extremely attractive women, none of whom were particularly distracting at the game table (and my tolerance for boorish behavior from the male gamers towards the women is extremely, extremely, slight - my game is neither the time nor the place, nor will it be).


----------



## Desdichado (Aug 20, 2009)

Nellisir said:


> Honestly, given the opportunity, I always try for a 50/50 ratio in my gaming groups.



Really?  I've never once tried for any ratio whatsoever.  I'm "genderblind" when it comes to gaming.  The only thing I try to do when looking for folks to game with is find cool people who'd be fun to game with, and for that matter, fun to hang out with when not gaming, or when chatting around gaming.

The fact that I find more men than women who are interested in gaming and also fit that profile doesn't really surprise me, but neither am I surprised that I can find plenty of women who like gaming and fit that profile.

But actively pushing a co-ed agenda?  I don't care enough about the gender make-up of my group to actively seek that out.  In fact, I don't care about it at all.  I'm too busy caring about the quality of the gaming and the quality of the social dynamic overall to push some kind of gender agenda.


----------



## pawsplay (Aug 20, 2009)

Barastrondo said:


> Man, consider the plight of the bisexual gamer. How does he or she ever manage to focus?




"I heard there was a pickup game of D&D happening."
"Sorry, you must have the wrong house."
"Well, that's too bad, because I'm here to _pick up_."
*cue techno music*


----------



## Nellisir (Aug 20, 2009)

Hobo said:


> Really?  I've never once tried for any ratio whatsoever.  I'm "genderblind" when it comes to gaming.  The only thing I try to do when looking for folks to game with is find cool people who'd be fun to game with, and for that matter, fun to hang out with when not gaming, or when chatting around gaming.
> ...
> But actively pushing a co-ed agenda?  I don't care enough about the gender make-up of my group to actively seek that out.  In fact, I don't care about it at all.  I'm too busy caring about the quality of the gaming and the quality of the social dynamic overall to push some kind of gender agenda.




Key words: "given the opportunity".  I've been extremely fortunate to have had the opportunity, on several occasions, to pick and chose players in my campaigns.  *I would never chose a poor gamer over an excellent one for any reason*, including gender, but given 9 or 10 excellent gamers of both genders and a comfort level of only 5-6 players at my table, it's been *my personal experience* that a more-or-less evenly mixed group is more enjoyable for me than an all-male group, or an "all-male except for one" group.  The latter scenario has definitely created the most problems. 
I've never DMed an all-women group, so I can't speak to that.

Edit: To be totally clear, there was a point in college when I was running 3 campaigns - two long-term, one "just for fun".  I had a reputation as a good DM (I guess), and a pool of 20+  players to chose from. I didn't -want- to play with the same group of people over and over and over; I wanted different groups.  There was some player overlap between the groups, but in general there were different players in each campaign.


----------



## NinjaDancer (Aug 21, 2009)

I've been DMing an all-female group for the last couple years, and am now going to start DMing a mixed-gender group.  Maybe I'll have to make a thread about how the two groups differ . . .

We had one male in the group for a while.  He was the boyfriend of one of the female players.  Eventually he drifted off.  I do think that one man in a group of women or one woman in a group of men would have more of a tendency to feel the odd person out.  When I worked technical theater, I was the only woman on the electrical crew, and that made me feel my gender more strongly.  It wasn't really a problem, and eventually I think the guys forgot I was a girl and just looked at me as a person.

Like many who have posted already, I prefer mixed-gender groups.  Or at least mixed-approach-to-roleplaying groups.  Even in my all female party we had the social players and the kick-down-the-door players and the puzzle lovers.


----------



## Theroc (Aug 22, 2009)

My girlfriend intends to DM a group someday when she gets time to work on a campaign setting(she wants to homebrew it right off the bat).

Her best friend intends to play, as well as a couple other female friends.  She also has several male friends.  I may play myself, depending whether I can get to the meetings(we live 80 miles from each other).

Given that we all get along fine in a social environment for the most part, we'll likely get along fine at the 'table'.

As for being maladjusted for not altering behaviour.  I alter my behaviour very slightly in company other than my preferred.  For instance, around children I avoid swearing(Not because of some need to be politically correct or properly adjusted, but because I do not wish to be a bad influence on the children), and around those I do not know well, I am usually rather quiet, petrified of the concept of offending or annoying someone else.  Why am I so petrified? Because everyone's obsessed with fitting some image of 'proper' adjustment or political correctness which cracks down harshly on any infractions.

Anyways, the way the OP's post was laid out wasn't very clear and actually led conversation to some degree away from what I think he was trying to ask.

Women in D&D, (or WoW, or whatever else) are no more positive or negative than males.  There is no inherent good or bad to their presence or lack thereof, it depends what environment you want, and on the individual merits of the female, and of the males in your current group.


----------



## Hereticus (Aug 23, 2009)

shieldheart said:


> Having played d&d almost exclusively with an all male group, the concept of a female gamer is somewhat foreign to me.  In the dozen or so sessions I've played with female players, I've found that female gamers, by virtue of their gender alone, change the gameplay experience dramatically.
> 
> Most of the time it's a headache.




*The Guild - Do You Wanna Date My Avatar*

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urNyg1ftMIU]YouTube - The Guild - Do You Wanna Date My Avatar[/ame]


----------



## Harr (Jan 18, 2010)

Netherstorm said:


> It seems like any thread about women gamers immediately turns in a bunch of guys proudly proclaiming that they play rpgs with girls and have _for such a long time~!_




Ha. This. A _thousand _times this.

I'm not gonna sit and judge anybody in particular, but let me just say that guys who think that "gaming with girls" is some kind of achievement, or something to be held as a "point of pride" for themselves, something to be sought after and argued for, are in and of themselves *more *pathetic and sad than those who just don't. The guy who thinks that the fact that there's a girl sitting in his group is notable/interesting enough to take the time to post about it in public forums for everyone to see, screams "virgin" louder than anything else.

A lot has been said in this thread about the hidden creepiness/agendas of the guys who don't handle girls well in their group. But how about the other side of the coin? Let's go ahead and describe a few of the different hidden creepiness and agendas of those guys who actually need to have girls in the group to the point where they will spout off about it to complete strangers:

---

1) The guy can't handle being in an all-guy environment. The guy *needs *a woman present to provide that validation and the assurance that what he's doing is socially acceptable and not "nerdy" or "gay".

2) The guy is completely co-dependent on his girlfriend/wife, and simply can't imagine doing *anything *without her sitting beside him and watching over him, even activities that are known to be "guy stuff" (this is the same type of guy that goes out shopping for women's clothes/hair/feminine-hygiene products with his S.O., telling himself he is oh-so-enlightened, when the truth is he simply can't be separated from her for any significant length of time).

3) The guy can't handle other types of social situations where one would naturally interact with women, such as clubbing, parties, movie nights, dinners, etc., and is reduced to using his game nights as an awkward stand-in for socializing.

4) The guy has an overbearing, controlling gf/wife and simply doesn't have the stones to let her know it's guy's night tonight... he is forced to bring her along, even when that wasn't the plan, and emotionally compensates by thinking about how "enlightened" he is for gaming with his woman, when the reality is that he never had any choice about it.

5) The guy has never had any success at all with women, and had gradually convinced himself that if he is enough of a "feminist" and is vocal and outspoken enough about including and empowering women in absolutely everything under the sun, some woman, some day, will notice it and maybe, just maybe, *like him* for it.

6) The guy feels he needs to prove something to the other guys in the group, by being "the guy that finds and brings girls to the table", and enjoys that feeling of being "proven".

7) The guy has had a "female best friend" for most of his life, whom he's been in love with for most of his life, but has never dared to take it any further than that, and he compensates by inviting her and bringing her along to absolutely everything, no matter if it's inappropriate or awkward for others.

8) The guy considers himself a "white knight" and a friend and champion to women, but can't tear himself away from his woman-deprived hobby, so compensates by acting artificially chivalrous and magnanimous of any woman he happens to come across in the gaming hobby, and nurtures and inflated sense of pride about it.

---

Of course, none of these guys ever realize what it is they're going, and they *all*, without exception, say to themselves, "It's not that I *need * to have her/them around - it just happened to turn out that way." Yes, of course it did.... of course. 

Now, I realize these descriptions may ruffle some feathers, but I don't consider them any more inflammatory than the mountain of other descriptions and insinuations made all along these threads by guys wanting to make themselves feel better by putting down other guys through the use of words like "virgin" and "immature".  I'm just putting a bit of a mirror up to all those guys who immediately saunter into women-gamer threads and strike e-poses to imply that gaming with girls automatically implies that you're some kind of well-adjusted, mature, and somehow superior man. It doesn't... *not by a very, very, long shot.*

And I do realize that the well-adjusted, mature guy who games with women does exist, but he is for certain in the minority, and I have *no doubt whatsoever* that more than half of the "well-adjusted" guys posting in this thread belittling other guys, fall into one or more of the categories listed above.


----------



## Doctor Jest (Jan 18, 2010)

shieldheart said:


> Has anyone else had similar experiences?  How do you deal with it?  I want to include a few female friends into my gaming sessions but I don't want the atmosphere of the group to change.




You become socialized to working with and interacting with a large number of different kinds of people. You have relationships and perhaps even get married, but become experienced enough with women either way, so that you don't have bubbling sexual tension clouding your brain every time a female is even present. 

In short, you grow up and become an adult. 

At that point, it's not a big deal if there are women playing or not. After a point, you're just happy to have players, period. You don't give a whit about their gender.

It's really just a question of maturity. There's no way to rush it along, unfortunately. It's a phase that most guys just need to outgrow. Perhaps having women at the table might help them to socialize with females, but it probably won't.


----------



## ExploderWizard (Jan 18, 2010)

Harr said:


> I'm not gonna sit and judge anybody in particular, but let me just say that guys who think that "gaming with girls" is some kind of achievement, or something to be held as a "point of pride" for themselves, something to be sought after and argued for, are in and of themselves *more *pathetic and sad than those who just don't. The guy who thinks that the fact that there's a girl sitting in his group is notable/interesting enough to take the time to post about it in public forums for everyone to see, screams "virgin" louder than anything else.




.........and this post doesn't?


----------



## Aus_Snow (Jan 18, 2010)




----------



## Keefe the Thief (Jan 18, 2010)

Harr said:


> Ha. This. A _thousand _times this.
> 
> I'm not gonna sit and judge anybody in particular, but let me just say that guys who think that "gaming with girls" is some kind of achievement, or something to be held as a "point of pride" for themselves, something to be sought after and argued for, are in and of themselves *more *pathetic and sad than those who just don't. The guy who thinks that the fact that there's a girl sitting in his group is notable/interesting enough to take the time to post about it in public forums for everyone to see, screams "virgin" louder than anything else.
> 
> ...




Your insight into human nature is stunning. Alas, you squandered it by using it on the thread that won the "train wreck go away" award 2009. I have a certain feeling about your post, but, because you apparently can read minds, i don´t have to tell you what it is. 

Happy... whatever you do.


----------



## Piratecat (Jan 18, 2010)

Annnd... we're done. If you're going to dig up an old thread, best to do so without an insulting rant.

Klunkitty klunk klunk,

klunk klunk.


----------

