# Preview: The Warden



## Fallen Seraph (Jan 5, 2009)

Well, here it is the second last of our Primal classes for PHB2. The Warden:

D&D Warden, Levels 1-3

Wow, those Forms are pretty neat. I didn't expect, wasn't really hoping (though wasn't hoping against) shapechanging. But the fact they went with partial-shapechanging is awesome, I always liked partial shapeshifting.


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## catsclaw227 (Jan 5, 2009)

Reading it now.... I am starting a new Scales of War campaign on Jan 17th, so the new classes are certainly optional.  Druid, Barbarian are already both being considered, so I am curious if Warden or Invoker might draw some interest.


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## catsclaw227 (Jan 5, 2009)

Huh... Thorn Strike is a Melee 2 attack.  That means you can reach out two squares with your weapon even if you don't have reach?  Interesting.... Do other classes have this ability?

I like the class features, BTW, and Nature's Wrath and Font of Life are pretty cool too.

And Dailies with the Polymorph keyword that allow you to take on a Guardian Form.


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## Vael (Jan 5, 2009)

I like the class, it's intriguing. I like the free action mark, Font of Life is sweet, and the daily powers are flavourful and nifty. I like the semi-shifting dailies.

I just noticed this on the second pass ... the Warden has a new hitpoint scale, it gains 7 hp per level, trumping the previous classes.


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## Cadfan (Jan 5, 2009)

Short review: Nature Gish.

I'm cool with that.  Seems like they took the 3e druid's non-wild shape melee powers, and made a whole class out of them.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jan 5, 2009)

wow...

   some of the daily's that do ongoing 5 on a hit do ongoing 2 on a miss...I think that iss new don't most misses say no ongoing...oh and did you see th HIT POINTS!!!


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## Cyronax (Jan 5, 2009)

At first read this class seems to be way over the top. It is way more durable than the fighter or the swordmage ... and it seems destined to slow down game play in the hands of certain players and DMs that have trouble paying attention to the battlefield/round-to-round enemy repositioning. 

Ugh. I've DMed and play a lot of 4e so far, and this is the first official class I've seen that I really have misgivings about.


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## Cadfan (Jan 5, 2009)

Does anything stop you from assuming multiple forms at once?


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## FireLance (Jan 5, 2009)

Vael said:


> I just noticed this on the second pass ... the Warden has a new hitpoint scale, it gains 7 hp per level, trumping the previous classes.



More hit points seems to be the hallmark of the Primal classes. The barbarian (striker) has hit points as a defender, and the druid (controller) has hit points as a leader/striker, so it's not surprising that the warden (defender) gets the most hit points of all.


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## FireLance (Jan 5, 2009)

Cyronax said:


> At first read this class seems to be way over the top. It is way more durable than the fighter or the swordmage



1 hp + 1 hp/level is "way"? 



> and it seems destined to slow down game play in the hands of certain players and DMs that have trouble paying attention to the battlefield/round-to-round enemy repositioning.



Yes, there are a few push/pull/difficult terrain/damaging terrain effects, but they don't seem out of line for a controller, and the warden is supposed to be able to have a controller secondary role, after all.


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## FireLance (Jan 5, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Does anything stop you from assuming multiple forms at once?



Nothing that I can see from the preview, but since it only goes up to level 3, it isn't an really an issue at the moment. However, I suspect that to keep things simple, you won't be able to use more than one form at once, and if you switch forms, you lose the special attack if you haven't already used it.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jan 5, 2009)

The warden seems a lot more controllerish than other defenders.  It may lack in upfront damage compared to the fighter, but it certainly does a lot more to hinder enemies.

I find it amusing that this class, is even more 'mystical' than the Barbarian is.  It's like a druid with melee weapons.


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## Jack99 (Jan 5, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Does anything stop you from assuming multiple forms at once?




Not as far as I can tell (from the excerpt). But I would hazard to guess that it's the intention.


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## frankthedm (Jan 5, 2009)

Cyronax said:


> At first read this class seems to be way over the top. It is way more durable than the fighter or the swordmage ...
> 
> Ugh. I've DMed and play a lot of 4e so far, and this is the first official class I've seen that I really have misgivings about.



Be vocal about it. Wotc is letting these playtest characters out to see how folks react. 

Also, a defender with at max hide armor and not favoring an AC stat is probably going to need extra HP. Lots of extra HP.


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## RefinedBean (Jan 5, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Also, a defender with at max hide armor and not favoring an AC stat is probably going to need extra HP. Lots of extra HP.




But with Guardian Might, they definitely can focus on an AC stat:  Con or Wis.

I suppose this would limit feat choice, but still...the Warden probably won't worry about AC ever.  The extra HP seems to be a bit of breathing room just in case, for whatever random reason, they'd like to bump some other stat.


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## Cadfan (Jan 5, 2009)

He favors an AC stat.  Either Con or Wis will be his AC stat due to his class abilities.

Assuming a base stat of 14 in your secondary, if he sticks with hide armor he has a base AC of 15, 17 with a heavy shield.  Opting for chain only raises AC to 16/18, at the cost of a feat and a point of movement.

I think that balances.  He's got better marking than a fighter, and better hit points, but the fighter has +2 base ac, +1 base attack, and an armor check penalty of 0 or 2 instead of 1 or 3.


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## Glyfair (Jan 5, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Be vocal about it. Wotc is letting these playtest characters out to see how folks react.



Exactly.  Anyone who finds a problem should post it where WotC will see it (and even here is very likely to be seen).  Even discuss it.  

Just don't go knee jerk, be constructive.


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## mach1.9pants (Jan 5, 2009)

This is not a playtest though, but a preview. Does that mean it is more likely to be already set and unlikely to change?

Edit: but yeah a warforged warder (warwar?) would be rather a useful member of the party!


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## frankthedm (Jan 5, 2009)

RefinedBean said:


> But with Guardian Might, they definitely can focus on an AC stat:  Con or Wis.
> 
> I suppose this would limit feat choice, but still...the Warden probably won't worry about AC ever.  The extra HP seems to be a bit of breathing room just in case, for whatever random reason, they'd like to bump some other stat.



My mistake. That is way too much HP for the class then. IMHO AC and HP from the same stat should have a knee jerk reaction due to what should be obvious problems.


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Does anything stop you from assuming multiple forms at once?



Considering that you can only benefit from one barbarian rage at a time, and a Druid has to wildshape to use their Beast powers, I'm betting that you can only use 1 at a time.


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

Kobold Avenger said:


> The warden seems a lot more controllerish than other defenders.  It may lack in upfront damage compared to the fighter, but it certainly does a lot more to hinder enemies.



I noticed this as well. However, the Wildblood build is supposed to be "Striker"-like, but I don't get a lot of striker off of it. All of the powers do seem controller-like. 



			
				Cyromax said:
			
		

> At first read this class seems to be way over the top. It is way more durable than the fighter or the swordmage



Have you taken a glance at the Battlerage Vigor fighter? Tons, and tons, of HP. 

In contrast to the Warden, the Swordmage is actually intentionally softer than a fighter or paladin, because that's part of the design. But the Warden is, by nature of the very class, defensively loaded and controller-like. It doesn't bring the damage.



> and it seems destined to slow down game play in the hands of certain players and DMs that have trouble paying attention to the battlefield/round-to-round enemy repositioning.



Just like the wizard or druid, which has lots of battlefield effects. Or the Bard who has tons of ally repositioning powers. 

I really don't think that "It's bad for people who are bad at 4e combat" is a valid criticism.


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## FireLance (Jan 5, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> My mistake. That is way too much HP for the class then. IMHO AC and HP from the same stat should have a knee jerk reaction due to what should be obvious problems.



In mitigation, the warden's primary stat is Strength. A high-Strength, high-Constitution warden would have good AC and Fortitude, but poor(er) Reflex and Will.


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

As I read through this, I find some spots that confuse me.

For instance, Nature's Wrath:


> Once during *each of your turns*, you can mark each adjacent enemy as a free action. This mark lasts until the end of your next turn.



Emphasis mine.

What does "each of your turns" mean? I've never seen the phrase used before. 

Considering that people only get 1 turn per round, then wouldn't it have been easier to just say "Once per round"? 

*Thorn Strike*

This one initially confused me, because it's a melee attack that pulls the target. I didn't realize that it granted reach until on the third read of the power I noticed the "Melee 2". I think they could have spelled that out a little better, because I think the subtlety of that will be missed by many.


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## FireLance (Jan 5, 2009)

Rechan said:


> As I read through this, I find some spots that confuse me.
> 
> For instance, Nature's Wrath:
> 
> ...



I guess they really mean once per round, during your turn. It's probably to close off the possibility of using it outside your turn since it's a free action.


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## Belphanior (Jan 5, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Considering that people only get 1 turn per round, then wouldn't it have been easier to just say "Once per round"?




No, because then you can mark people when it's not your turn.

Turn != round




Rechan said:


> This one initially confused me, because it's a melee attack that pulls the target. I didn't realize that it granted reach until on the third read of the power I noticed the "Melee 2". I think they could have spelled that out a little better, because I think the subtlety of that will be missed by many.




Really? I thought it was crystal clear, if not particularly spectacular. Of course I do always make sure to read every keyword, every line, and what defense it targets. Maybe I'm unique in that. But IMO if people can't be bothered to read what a power does then they deserve to not grok it.


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

It's very clear that the Warden, by intention (given the class's fluff) is all defense. They don't bring the hurt (only 1 encounter power does 2[W]), but they definitely play second-string melee controller well. I don't think they do the Secondary Striker role all that well, given the few powers we've seen. 

It occurs to me that the Swordmage's controller aspect is very Blasty - area affects that do damage. The Warden's controller aspect is very Battlefield Shaping. Which is a nice compliment.

I'm very underwhelmed by their At-Wills (Earth Shield Strike is lame). However, getting access to _two_ class-feature At-Wills is not bad.

I do love that you can mark every adjacent enemy as a free action. That is _sweet_. I am disappointed though that their marks don't do anything fancy; I liked the Paladin's Divine Challenge, and the SM's Aegises. But, the two mark-related at-wills go a long way.


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## Starfox (Jan 5, 2009)

I kind of like it, as a first gut reaction. It brings the old melee druid back, hopefully without codzilla.


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm very thankful that the Warden's close powers are 'each enemy'.


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## op1983 (Jan 5, 2009)

I like playing the tank. Also no one else in my groups usually play the tank so I like that I have another type of tank I get to play. I look forward to getting a chance to play this guy. But now I need to work up a background that I like.


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## Nahat Anoj (Jan 5, 2009)

Rechan said:


> It's very clear that the Warden, by intention (given the class's fluff) is all defense. They don't bring the hurt (all but 1 of the encounter powers do 2[W]), but they definitely play second-string melee controller well. I don't think they do the Secondary Striker role all that well, given the few powers we've seen.



If there is a secondary striker role about them, it seems more about enhanced mobility than it is doling out the damage.  But certainly, rangers and rogues have little to worry about with respect to wardens supplanting them as the group's main striker.


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

Jonathan Moyer said:


> If there is a secondary striker role about them, it seems more about enhanced mobility than it is doling out the damage.  But certainly, rangers and rogues have little to worry about with respect to wardens supplanting them as the group's main striker.



I was thinking more in comparison to the Two-Handed fighter, or the Strength-based Paladin, which are intended to be Defender (striker).


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## fba827 (Jan 5, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Does anything stop you from assuming multiple forms at once?




I don't have my books handy so I can't say for certain, but does the Polymorph keyword somehow factor in here to say only one Polymorph effect at a time? (kind of like you can only have one Stance or one Rage at a time)



mach1.9pants said:


> This is not a playtest though, but a preview. Does that mean it is more likely to be already set and unlikely to change?




You are correct, it is a preview, not a playtest.  The thing is already pretty much signed and sealed (and probably preping for the printers at this point). But I'm sure WotC would still take any feedback into consideration for updates/errata if it's a frequent comment/concern.



GMforPowergamers said:


> ...oh and did you see th HIT POINTS!!!




I consider the AC/Hp thing a wash (sure, more HP but on average lower AC than a typical fighter by a couple points).  But having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if the Warden burns through that extra HP.  It's marking ability can normally mark multiple targets, which means more targets will be aiming for it (than say a fighter that only has one marked at a time, not counting the occasional power that lets it attack and mark multiples).  So unless your enemies don't usually target the PC that marked it, then the Warden will be burning through those extra HP.

In other points of comparison ...
   the fighters daily power damage seems to scale up faster (level 1 daily is already at 2W whereas the warden's level 1 daily is at 1W, don't know how far that scaling difference extends at further levels).
   the fighter has a better to hit by a +1 for weapon talent (though both classes primarily attack AC)
   the warden gets a more varied and stronger use of marking (can mark more, gets another application of what it can do to marked targets instead of just hitting, can cause a status effect in addition to hitting). it's attack against a mark does target Fort but i guess that evens out with the fact that fort is generally 1-2 points lower than ac, accounted for the lack of fighter weapon talent.

I pretty much boil the defenders down to ...
  Fighter: excellent at straight forward single target to hit and high damage
  Swordmage: good at multiple target attacks but moderate damage
  Warden: good at single-target to hit, moderate damage, more conditions/effects

(leaving the other defender, paladins, out of this since i have never really read through it much)

Of course, that is just based on a single first read through with no actual play involved.  I reserve the right to change my opinions when I read it again later


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## Spatula (Jan 5, 2009)

I don't see how this just isn't flat-out better than the fighter at being a defender.  You auto-mark everyone adjacent.  You get the same interrupt when a marked foe attacks someone that's not you - except that you target Fort instead of AC, _and_ give everyone CA vs the enemy.  Or you can pin them down out to a range of 5 (I'm guessing you can't do both).  Plus, you get 2 saves every round (possibly avoiding negative conditions flat-out) and have more hit points.  As mentioned previously, the AC is a wash due to Guardian Might.

The power creep keeps on creeping on...


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## jasin (Jan 5, 2009)

Rechan said:


> It's very clear that the Warden, by intention (given the class's fluff) is all defense. They don't bring the hurt (all but 1 of the encounter powers do 2[W]),



Isn't 2[W] standard for low-level encounter powers? There is a significant number of powers that deal just 1[W].

How much damage does that one power that's not 2[W] do?


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

jasin said:


> Isn't 2[W] standard for low-level encounter powers? There is a significant number of powers that deal just 1[W].
> 
> How much damage does that one power that's not 2[W] do?



You seem to misunderstand.

All the Warden's Encounter (sans one 3rd level Encounter power) do 1[W]+stat.

Which is why I said they're not all that big on the damage-dealing.


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## Belphanior (Jan 5, 2009)

Spatula said:


> I don't see how this just isn't flat-out better than the fighter at being a defender.  You auto-mark everyone adjacent.  You get the same interrupt when a marked foe attacks someone that's not you - except that you target Fort instead of AC, _and_ give everyone CA vs the enemy.  Or you can pin them down out to a range of 5 (I'm guessing you can't do both).  Plus, you get 2 saves every round (possibly avoiding negative conditions flat-out) and have more hit points.  As mentioned previously, the AC is a wash due to Guardian Might.
> 
> The power creep keeps on creeping on...




Not at all.

The fighter's AC is pretty much always 17+ simply by wearing scale. The warder will have somewhere around 15-16. Both can use shields so they're irrelevant. One or two points of extra AC definitely help out a defender. The fighters in my games have great AC and I keep just narrowly missing them far too often. The math of 4e is just built that way.

The fighter can stop people from moving altogether. On the other hand, nothing stops you from shifting away from a warder and then using a ranged attack against somebody. At worst you're slowed afterwards, but that's symbolic only because next turn you just shift away again even while slowed and repeat the whole process. As a "defender" the warder is actually doing a very poor job compared to the others.

Fighters are more accurate in their attacks (very important, most effects only count on a hit).

Fighters can mark on opportunity attacks and dragonbreath, which has so far caused endless headaches for me. A good fighter is just so... _unavoidable_. This warder looks relatively easy to bypass. Shift away and charge at your target. You'll probably be outside of the reach of his special reaction too.


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## Spatula (Jan 5, 2009)

Rechan said:


> All the Warden's Encounter (sans one 3rd level Encounter power) do 1[W]+stat.
> 
> Which is why I said they're not all that big on the damage-dealing.



Well, the numebr of [w]s is only part of it - Hungry Earth deals 1[w]+str in a close burst 1, which is going to be more than 1[w] in practice.  Wildblood Vigor makes two attacks - it's Twin Strike with +Str to damage.  Thunder Ram Assault follows up the main attack with a close blast 3 that also does damage.  In fact, every encounter power that is not Predatory Guardian (the 2[w]) or Thunder Slam (which is positively sedate next to the other powers) involves multiple attacks and/or followup damage.


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

Belphanior said:


> The fighter can stop people from moving altogether. On the other hand, nothing stops you from shifting away from a warder and then using a ranged attack against somebody. At worst you're slowed afterwards, but that's symbolic only because next turn you just shift away again even while slowed and repeat the whole process. As a "defender" the warder is actually doing a very poor job compared to the others.



Warden's Grasp:



> *Close* burst 5
> *Effect:* You slide the target 1 square. The target is slowed and *cannot shift until the end of its turn*



So correct, a monster could shift away and attack with ranged. Then the Warden uses Warden's Grasp. On the Warden's turn, he moves up to the monster, and hits. On the monster's second turn, it can only shift at the _end_ of its turn, thereby not allowing it to get a ranged attack. 

So if anything, the 'shift-ranged attack' can only happen every 2 rounds. 

The Warden also has the benefit of marking multiple opponents, then getting to use one of his mark powers as an immediate interrupt; it grants a little more variety in who's getting popped if they don't attack him. 

In addition, dropping all the difficult terrain and making enemies slowed/unable to flee him is fairly defender-y, because it prevents skirmishers from running away/past him and engaging his allies.


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## Spatula (Jan 5, 2009)

Belphanior said:


> The fighter can stop people from moving altogether. On the other hand, nothing stops you from shifting away from a warder and then using a ranged attack against somebody. At worst you're slowed afterwards



Slowed _and cannot shift_.  And cannot avoid - Warden's Grasp has no hit roll.

I suppose the AC point is true, the Warden will be a point or two behind the fighter.  With the extra hp, I suppose that cancels out.



Belphanior said:


> Fighters are more accurate in their attacks (very important, most effects only count on a hit).



Targeting Fort is better than a +1 to hit - granted only some Warden powers are vs Fort, but this seems to be a wash.


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## jasin (Jan 5, 2009)

Rechan said:


> You seem to misunderstand.
> 
> All the Warden's Encounter (sans one 3rd level Encounter power) do 1[W]+stat.
> 
> Which is why I said they're not all that big on the damage-dealing.



Ah, that is indeed on the light side. The post I replied to said "(all but 1 of the encounter powers do 2[W])", which gave much the opposite impression.


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

Spatula said:


> Thunder Ram Assault follows up the main attack with a close blast 3 that also does damage.



But that is a controller effect, not striker. It's a single 1d6, not [W]. It's not heavily damage-focused.

I do confess I missed the Effect part of Wildblood frenzy.



> In fact, every encounter power that is not Predatory Guardian (the 2[w]) or Thunder Slam (which is positively sedate next to the other powers) involves multiple attacks and/or followup damage.



Close burst attacks aren't striker-like, however. They attack multiple foes, not do more damage to single foes.

Now, Earthgrasp (Geez, how many abilities can they have named 'Earth?')  is more appropriate, but it favors the Earthstrength build, not the Wildblood one.


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## Oldtimer (Jan 5, 2009)

Belphanior said:


> The fighter can stop people from moving altogether. On the other hand, nothing stops you from shifting away from a warder and then using a ranged attack against somebody.



Nothing stops you from shifting away from a fighter either. You might get hurt from it, but it won't stop you (unless it kills you, of course).


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## Belphanior (Jan 5, 2009)

Ah yes, that'll teach me to go by memory.

Ok, so he can block one guy every other round from doing that. Much better from what I initially thought, still not as impressive as a fighter I think. The only interrupt he has is the melee one though. The slide-n-slow is a reaction, so the damage is done by then. At least a paladin and swordmage can actively deter people from doing that.

Creating difficult/dangerous terrain is certainly a plus, but they're only available as an encounter power here and there without sustains.

I think the warder is the first true hybrid that's a cross between defender and controller/striker. He'd certainly be annoying to fight against, and he does prevent monsters from doing what they want, but he has a relatively low "hit me instead!" factor.

Judging from levels 1-3, anyway.


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

jasin said:


> Ah, that is indeed on the light side. The post I replied to said "(all but 1 of the encounter powers do 2[W])", which gave much the opposite impression.



My bad phrasing there. I meant only 1 does 2[w].


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

Spatula said:


> Targeting Fort is better than a +1 to hit - granted only some Warden powers are vs Fort, but this seems to be a wash.



I strongly disagree. Someone did a statistical analysis of monster defenses, and Fort is on average higher than AC.

I consider it a weakness when attacks target fort.


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## Belphanior (Jan 5, 2009)

Spatula said:


> Targeting Fort is better than a +1 to hit - granted only some Warden powers are vs Fort, but this seems to be a wash.




Is it? I seem to recall that Fort is on average about 1 point lower than AC for monsters. So for those few attacks they're equal, for most the fighter is more accurate.

Also, quite a few soldiers and brutes have a Fort that is _higher_ than their AC.

It's not exactly an overwhelming advantage. 



Oldtimer said:


> Nothing stops you from shifting away from a fighter either. You might get hurt from it, but it won't stop you (unless it kills you, of course).




I didn't mean stop in the sense of "makes impossible" but in the sense of "makes them choose something else". That's the central core idea of the defender role: not to force people to attack you aggro-style, but to present a better target and give them the (biased) choice.


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## jasin (Jan 5, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I strongly disagree. Someone did a statistical analysis of monster defenses, and Fort is on average higher than AC.
> 
> I consider it a weakness when attacks target fort.



I think you misremember. On average, Fort is the highest of the non-AC defenses, so high that non-weapon attacks vs. Fort are more difficult than weapon attacks vs. AC, i.e. Fort is less than 2-3 points lower than AC. But it's still lower, and weapon vs. Fort is in most cases better than weapon vs. AC.


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## Spatula (Jan 5, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Close burst attacks aren't striker-like, however. They attack multiple foes, not do more damage to single foes.



Point.  Hungry Earth is, however, flat out better than a similar striker power at the same level (Dire Wolverine Strike, ranger 1).  Hell, it's better than Sweeping Blow (fighter encounter 3).  Given that it attacks Fort and has an additional effect, it should be toned down IMO - perhaps removing the Str mod to the damage.


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

Spatula said:


> Point.  Hungry Earth is, however, flat out better than a similar striker power at the same level (Dire Wolverine Strike, ranger 1).



Compare it to a Controller power of equal level, considering that it's very controller-esque. 

Also, I don't consider making difficult terrain all that powerful. 

Difficult terrain hampers anyone who wants to move _into_ it, not _out_. The effects of difficult terrain only work when you _enter_ it, but if you start your turn in it and move out, you're not effected. Any enemy who wants to shift _out_ (or just take a move action to move out) is fine and dandy. 

I've seen in play various Wizard powers that make difficult terrain, and they haven't really effected the battlefield at all. 

Honestly, I don't see much the point of that power, unless the Warden is trying to prevent people from flanking him or shift past him.


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## Baumi (Jan 5, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Warden's Grasp:
> 
> So correct, a monster could shift away and attack with ranged. Then the Warden uses Warden's Grasp. On the Warden's turn, he moves up to the monster, and hits. On the monster's second turn, it can only shift at the _end_ of its turn, thereby not allowing it to get a ranged attack.
> 
> So if anything, the 'shift-ranged attack' can only happen every 2 rounds.




How? The slowing and shift-stopping effect only lasts till the end of it's turn, not until the end of its NEXT turn. 

If I understand it correctly then all it does is shift the enemy and hinder him to move in the same round (not a big deal if he has already done his movement before).


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## Rechan (Jan 5, 2009)

Baumi said:


> How? The slowing and shift-stopping effect only lasts till the end of it's turn, not until the end of its NEXT turn.



I'm sorry, I misread the power. 

When I saw "Cannot shift until the end of its turn", I thought that meant that it can only use a move action after using a standard/minor (as in, attack, then move, rather then the reverse).


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## Cadfan (Jan 5, 2009)

Its a new class, so inevitably someone is convinced that its power creep.

I don't see it though.  The Warden's marking is sub par.  It doesn't actually stop a bad guy from shifting away and attacking your allies- if your enemy wants to do that, the only thing making the Warden's mark better than a vanilla NPC mark is that next round, after the enemy has already attacked your ally once, it will be harder for your enemy to do it a second time.  And if your enemy attacks you in the next round, he can switch to your ally again.

Contrast that to the Fighter's absolute movement denial (shift > attack, move > boosted opportunity attack that stops movement) and I think the Fighter is still my favorite.  Particularly with Footwork Lure in the game so that I can put my enemies in the spot I want, then keep them there.

Honestly, the Warden's basic chassis seems sub par.  Its at wills are lame, its stat block is vanilla except for the hit points, which are offset by a lame AC (you can get two handed fighter AC by using a one handed weapon and a heavy shield, yay...), and even the hit points aren't THAT high.  Its basically just Toughness as a bonus feat.  The only really good thing is the neat synergy between elevated hit points, a class ability that makes Second Wind more attractive, and an extra saving throw per round.  The extra save means that your enemies probably have to go through your HP to kill you instead of bypassing it, and the other two make that harder to accomplish.

The Warden seems to be good because of his Forms.

The Forms are definitely where its at.  The attacks they grant are average (average is ok), but the effects are worthwhile.  Look at the effects for Form of the Relentless Panther:

+2 Reflex
+1 attack v enemies you have marked
Move action: shift 2

I think that's enough to make the Warden worthwhile instead of a below average chassis that tanks like a brick but doesn't accomplish much.


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## Cadfan (Jan 5, 2009)

This is built using standard array, which is how my group rolls.

I don't think he's broken. AC is two points behind a comparatively armed fighter. Attack is behind by one. I selected powers that create difficult terrain to increase his "stickiness" quotient. Thematically, I envisioned this guy as a bit of a World Serpent cultist, who favors energy themed powers instead of nature themes. Odds are that his feat choice would be dramatically different with the actual PHBII available, since the PHBI is filled with martial flavored feats. I probably wouldn't even choose a weapon focus for him, in favor of just using whatever the best item I find happens to be.

[sblock]Level 4 Dragonborn Earthstrength Warden

Initiative +3
Move 6

HP 57
Blood 23
Surge 13
Surges 11

AC 20
Fort 17
Ref 15
Will 15

Str 19
Con 15
Dex 12
Int 10
Wis 11
Cha 15

Feats
Toughness
Enlarged Dragon Breath
Weapon Focus: Axes
Superior Weapon Proficiency: Waraxe

Abilities
Font of Life
Guardian Might: Earthstrength
Nature's Wrath
+1 attack rolls while bloodied

Notable Skills
Athletics +8
Endurance +6
History +4
Intimidate +11
Nature +7

Standard attack data: +8, 1d12+6

Marking At Wills
Warden's Fury: v fort, target grants combat advantage
Warden's Grasp: pull 1, slow, close burst 5

At Will Attacks
Strength of Stone: +2 temporary hp
Thorn Strike: reach +1, pull 1

Encounter Attacks
R: Dragon Breath: +8 v ref, close blast 3 or 5, 1d6+2 lightning
1: Hungry Earth: v fort, close burst 1, creates difficult terrain
3: Earthgrasp Strike: prone until end of my next turn, 1d10+4* upon standing

Daily
1: Form of Winter's Herald: +1 ac, resist cold 5, difficult terrain radius 2
Also close burst 1, immobilize (save ends), miss: half, immobilize one round

Utility
2: Mountain Lion Step: encounter, ignore difficult terrain one round

Gear
+1 waraxe
+1 hide armor
+1 amulet
heavy shield

*Technically this should be 1d10+6. Houserule: weapon damage bonuses only apply to attacks with [W].[/sblock]


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## Sir Brennen (Jan 5, 2009)

My only question is, when a tiefling Warder uses _Form of the Fearsome Ram_, how can you tell?


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## catsclaw227 (Jan 5, 2009)

Sir Brennen said:


> My only question is, when a tiefling Warder uses _Form of the Fearsome Ram_, how can you tell?



Or a Minotaur, for that matter. 

(I am talking about the DDI Dragon Issue 369 version, not the MM version.   We don't use the MM versions of monster NPCs as PCs.)


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## MrMyth (Jan 5, 2009)

Spatula said:


> I don't see how this just isn't flat-out better than the fighter at being a defender. You auto-mark everyone adjacent. You get the same interrupt when a marked foe attacks someone that's not you - except that you target Fort instead of AC, _and_ give everyone CA vs the enemy. Or you can pin them down out to a range of 5 (I'm guessing you can't do both). Plus, you get 2 saves every round (possibly avoiding negative conditions flat-out) and have more hit points. As mentioned previously, the AC is a wash due to Guardian Might.




1) The fighter probably has better AC. Heavy Armor > Light Armor + Secondary Stat. 
2) The fighter probably has better to-hit, due to Fighter Weapon Talent.
3) The fighter is able to punish enemies who shift away. The Warden gets to walk them slink out of reach - and while Warden's Grasp will bring them back and stop them from doing so in the following round, that means that against smart enemies, they are about half as effective at punishing foes as the fighter. 
4) The fighter also gets to outright prevent enemies from moving away. That is powerful - especially against solos who will gladly soak up a hit to go prey on weaker party members. 

All in all, I think the balance is a good one. 

Defense-wise: 
The Warden has the edge here, with more hp and probably only slightly less AC. Font of Life is really what pushes them over the edge - and honestly, is the only power I am remotely worried about in this class, since shrugging off conditions is extremely powerful in 4E. 

Offense-wise: 
The Fighter has the edge here. The Warden's retaliation is more potent, but also easier to avoid. The Fighter is very hard to escape, and their greater accuracy is not to be underestimated. The Fighter At-wills seem more potent, and more focused on damage - which again, helps encourage enemy's to attack them rather than ignore them. The Warden isn't completely left in the dust, though, due to how easy it is for them to place their marks - and Warden's Fury is usable with a reach weapon, unlike a Fighter's retaliation. The Warden giving up some defense to catch up on offense, on the other hand, seems like even more confirmation of the balance between the two.


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## Belphanior (Jan 5, 2009)

MrMyth said:


> and while Warden's Grasp will bring them back and stop them from doing so in the following round, that means that against smart enemies, they are about half as effective at punishing foes as the fighter.




As Baumi pointed out, it doesn't even do that. It does:
"You slide the target 1 square. The target is slowed and cannot shift until the end of its turn."

I hope they forgot a word in there, but all Warden's Grasp effectively does is slide someone. The slowing effect ends at the end of their turn. And since it's a reaction, it will usually only ever be applied on their turn - after they've already moved and attacked. Only in a limited amount of situations will it have more effect.


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## Alikar (Jan 5, 2009)

Belphanior said:


> As Baumi pointed out, it doesn't even do that. It does:
> "You slide the target 1 square. The target is slowed and cannot shift until the end of its turn."
> 
> I hope they forgot a word in there, but all Warden's Grasp effectively does is slide someone. The slowing effect ends at the end of their turn. And since it's a reaction, it will usually only ever be applied on their turn - after they've already moved and attacked. Only in a limited amount of situations will it have more effect.




True, however I think the Warden is a defender in the sense that they let others attack. I think this is very useful for pulling a creature off a wizard or ranger before their turn. Sure you didn't stop the attack, but if they are 4 or 5 away the fighter wouldn't have stopped them either. At least this lets the ranged classes perform a ranged attack without pulling out a power or suffering from an opportunity attack.


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## Spatula (Jan 5, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> I don't see it though.  The Warden's marking is sub par.  It doesn't actually stop a bad guy from shifting away and attacking your allies



Neither does the fighter - the movement stopping ability only works with movement-provoked OAs.

I missed the bit about the slow & shift only lasting until the end of the target's turn.  That's definitely a lot weaker than I had originally thought it was, so my initial reaction was probably an overreaction. 



Cadfan said:


> Its at wills are lame



Aside from Thorn Strike, I agree there.



Cadfan said:


> and even the hit points aren't THAT high.  Its basically just Toughness as a bonus feat.



It's twice as good as Toughness actually, but spread out over levels instead of delivered upfront.


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## Kralin Thornberry (Jan 5, 2009)

Also, don't forget, that the INT/DEX will continue to raise AC as long as the character isn't wearing heavy armor, something that the Warden doesn't do.  So as they raise their 2 primary abilities (STR & CON/WIS), they also raise HP AND AC, something none of the other defenders can do (except maybe the swordmage which can raise INT as long as he doesn't wear heavy armor).

It seems that PHB2 is going to have a lot of shifty, slider type of characters (Bard can slide 1 sq. when he heals you).


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## Kitirat (Jan 5, 2009)

Spatula said:


> I don't see how this just isn't flat-out better than the fighter at being a defender.  You auto-mark everyone adjacent.  You get the same interrupt when a marked foe attacks someone that's not you - except that you target Fort instead of AC, _and_ give everyone CA vs the enemy.  Or you can pin them down out to a range of 5 (I'm guessing you can't do both).  Plus, you get 2 saves every round (possibly avoiding negative conditions flat-out) and have more hit points.  As mentioned previously, the AC is a wash due to Guardian Might.
> 
> The power creep keeps on creeping on...




Actually, I do not agree.  Fighters can... and often do in my games, mark at range.  The warden can ONLY mark you if your adjacent.  If you then run away he can pull you back in (I like that he seems like a writhing clump of roots and bark).

Wardens do not come close to being strikers, I've seen fighters and even strength based paladins get into the 20's routinely with their encounter powers, I see the warden having to be built specifically to do so.

The warden gets a "stance-like" effect with his dailies but at the cost of 1-2 W in damage or the ability to be reliable.  

I like both but do not yet see the warden as better all together.


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## Betote (Jan 6, 2009)

Wow. When WotC releases a "class encyclopaedia" series, there will be one tome for classes beginning with "war-", and another one for all the rest.

The guys who make up abbreviations must really hate the class naming department


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## Kobold Avenger (Jan 6, 2009)

Fighters have an edge in marking, when any opponent they attack gets marked by them.  This not only includes melee attacks, but also ranged attacks, area and close powers from multiclassing (Thunderwave being common example), and anything else where they roll to hit something whether it hits or not.

On the other hand with Wardens I find Earth spikes to be an amusing power when, they can hit someone over the head AND spikes will come out of the earth and up an opponent's arse.


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## Mad Mac (Jan 6, 2009)

I have to say it's fun to picture a class where it is literally dangerous to even stand next to the guy, what with the very ground beneath his feet actively attacking or hindering his enemies with no meaningful effort on his part. For some reason that says more to me about the flavor of the class than anything else.


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## Thundershield (Jan 6, 2009)

In spite of danger of repeating what's already been said, it seems like the Primal power source has the nice side effect of increasing HP. Primal Controllers get 5/level where other Controllers (Wizard and Invoker) get 4, Primal Strikers (the Barbarian) get 6/level, where others get 5, and now the Warden gets 7/level where other Defenders get 6.



Rechan said:


> I do love that you can mark every adjacent enemy as a free action. That is _sweet_. I am disappointed though that their marks don't do anything fancy; I liked the Paladin's Divine Challenge, and the SM's Aegises. But, the two mark-related at-wills go a long way.



I believe that *is* the point of those at-wills. They've merely split it up so the marking itself is a class feature and the marking effect is a power. Likewise, a Fighter's marking ability is all class feature, while a Paladin's or Swordmage's are all power-based. I know Fighters have powers that mark as well, but let's keep it to the base class.

EDIT: As for the Warden class, the only peeve I have about it is that I find it hard to tie a concept or feel to it. I'm guessing it's a Warrior of Nature deal, but are we talking about a concept like the big burly bearskin-cloaked man living up on the mountain? Or maybe a tribal warrior focused more on shamanism than berserker strength? What other kinds of concepts do you have for the Warden?


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## Kitirat (Jan 6, 2009)

Thundershield said:


> In spite of danger of repeating what's already been said, it seems like the Primal power source has the nice side effect of increasing HP. Primal Controllers get 5/level where other Controllers (Wizard and Invoker) get 4, Primal Strikers (the Barbarian) get 6/level, where others get 5, and now the Warden gets 7/level where other Defenders get 6.
> 
> 
> I believe that *is* the point of those at-wills. They've merely split it up so the marking itself is a class feature and the marking effect is a power. Likewise, a Fighter's marking ability is all class feature, while a Paladin's or Swordmage's are all power-based. I know Fighters have powers that mark as well, but let's keep it to the base class.
> ...




An oaken warrior, attunded to nature.  Kind of a swamp thing whom can change between his angry face and normal forms.  The Robin hood legend's mentor would be an example.  The creatian bull from the hercules story would be another.


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## Phaezen (Jan 6, 2009)

Thundershield said:


> EDIT: As for the Warden class, the only peeve I have about it is that I find it hard to tie a concept or feel to it. I'm guessing it's a Warrior of Nature deal, but are we talking about a concept like the big burly bearskin-cloaked man living up on the mountain? Or maybe a tribal warrior focused more on shamanism than berserker strength? What other kinds of concepts do you have for the Warden?




Beorn from the Hobbit would be a nice example of what they are going for with the Warden, at least that is my reading of it.  

One of the first concepts I thought of was of a warforged warden, created to defend a frontier, something I am thinking of using for a character someday.

Phaezen


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## vagabundo (Jan 6, 2009)

The class archetype and mechanics arent really doing it for me, however I'm pretty sure one of my players could do something interesting with it.

I'd need to see it in play I suppose.


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## D.Shaffer (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm a child of the 80s. This is the first thing that sprang to mind. 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3F5dot4pk]YouTube - Brave Star[/ame]

"Then one day, a lawman appeared,
With powers of Hawk, Wolf, Puma, and Bear"


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## Mad Mac (Jan 6, 2009)

> "Then one day, a lawman appeared,
> With powers of Hawk, Wolf, Puma, and Bear"




  I used to watch that show too, but somehow I forgot about the transforming horse with a bazooka...


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

The thing that annoys me about the Warden is that they're all earth earth earth. C'mon. There's more stuff to do than Earth. Too many powers named Earth are going to get confusing. They need some Wind and Water stuff. They allready have a Thorn strike, so some plant based attacks work.



> EDIT: As for the Warden class, the only peeve I have about it is that I find it hard to tie a concept or feel to it. I'm guessing it's a Warrior of Nature deal, but are we talking about a concept like the big burly bearskin-cloaked man living up on the mountain? Or maybe a tribal warrior focused more on shamanism than berserker strength? What other kinds of concepts do you have for the Warden?



Swamp Thing.


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## FireLance (Jan 6, 2009)

Thundershield said:


> EDIT: As for the Warden class, the only peeve I have about it is that I find it hard to tie a concept or feel to it. I'm guessing it's a Warrior of Nature deal, but are we talking about a concept like the big burly bearskin-cloaked man living up on the mountain? Or maybe a tribal warrior focused more on shamanism than berserker strength? What other kinds of concepts do you have for the Warden?



Earthbender.


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## OchreJelly (Jan 6, 2009)

I dunno, true there are a lot of earth powers, but there's a good smattering of thunder, "vine", "tree", and even frost in there.  Frankly when I think of nature dude that tanks, I think of earth and tree should stand out a bit more.


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## OchreJelly (Jan 6, 2009)

For concepts, the first thing I thought of actually was a dwarf "elementalist" who channels a lot of these earth powers.  I would reflavor the Ram power to have him take on aspects of a Galeb Duhr that rolls into guys.


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

OchreJelly said:


> when I think of nature dude that tanks, I think of earth and tree should stand out a bit more.



Ever try to punch some water? It's _hard_. Water is mobile, certainly, but it's got immense weight and strength. The power of a raging river, or a great wave. 

Then there's wind, which is a great force. Tornados, and simple wind factor, they can hit you like a train.


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## Mad Mac (Jan 6, 2009)

> EDIT: As for the Warden class, the only peeve I have about it is that I find it hard to tie a concept or feel to it. I'm guessing it's a Warrior of Nature deal, but are we talking about a concept like the big burly bearskin-cloaked man living up on the mountain? Or maybe a tribal warrior focused more on shamanism than berserker strength? What other kinds of concepts do you have for the Warden?




Geomancer. 


Geomancer - Final Fantasy Tactics Job Classes - Caves of Narshe

Image: Geomancer - male | Final Fantasy Tactics Art Gallery at Creative Uncut

  For those who never played FFT, the Geomancer was basically a high HP/medium armor job that tended to use big weapons like axes. They could gain abilities to walk over water or lava or otherwise bypass terrain, and use various "At will" attacks based on what sort of terrain they were standing on. 

They didn't do much damage but had some nasty status effects and could hit multiple targets easily. It's actually a very good fit for what I've seen of the Warden. 

  Oh, and come to think of it, Entangling Vines was the most common attack for the Geomancer, because it worked on most basic terrain. I'm thinking someone at Wizards is a Geomancer fan, personally. 

  I expect there to be a lot of earth powers, but hopefully a good spread of other elements as well. You can't really judge any class fairly with 3 levels worth of abilities, which is the annoying thing about these previews. (Which are still great to have)


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

But, my point isn't just "They use the Earth element a bit much." The point is the _word_ 'Earth'. 

Here, let me show you:

Earthstrength build. 
Earth Shield Strike
Weight of Earth
Earth Spike
Hungry Earth
Burst of Earth's Fury
Earthgrasp Strike

And that's just in the first three levels.

You have too many powers with the same word, they're going to get confusing.


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## OchreJelly (Jan 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Ever try to punch some water? It's _hard_. Water is mobile, certainly, but it's got immense weight and strength. The power of a raging river, or a great wave.
> 
> Then there's wind, which is a great force. Tornados, and simple wind factor, they can hit you like a train.




Oh I don't deny that you could concept out some good reasons to associate other elements like water and wind to work with a big tank.  I'm sure the later power levels will incorporate more of that.  

However, my suspicion is that some of that concepting is getting pushed toward the other primal classes to distinguish their feel:
From what we know already you could already say this about the primal classes:

Barbarian: emphasis animal aspects; savagery 
Druid: emphasis animal forms, and you see a lot of even distribution of fire, cold, thunder, lightning.  This befits a controller who conceptually has a big bag of tricks to draw from.  
Warden: emphasis earth, thunder, plant (so far).  
Shaman:  We don't know much about them yet (are they even confirmed?), yet I would bet a donut that a heavy emphasis on water will go here.  Gaming seems to associate water with life these days.


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## Mad Mac (Jan 6, 2009)

> You have too many powers with the same word, they're going to get confusing.




  That's a fair point. You could sub in "stone" or "rock" for some of them, but even that'll only get you so far.


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## Fallen Seraph (Jan 6, 2009)

Fluff wise, well like I always do when it comes to magical classes there will be refluffing. Specifically when it comes to Primal the theme has been emphasizing the spirits and deemphasizing the nature connection.

For the Warden, while I will have to go through each Power later on and change fluff around. The general concept I am going for will be; _"the Warden is the vessel and will of the Spirits bound to a region. She listens to their wishes but they answer to her call. Her connection gives them the strength to interact and influence the material and living."
_
Some of my initial ideas for Powers: 

*Warden's Grasp: *Replace the spectral vines with spectral hands and limbs and you got that covered.

*Weight of Earth: *Spirits grasp and claw at the enemy like an angry mob. While your blade strikes home.

*Earth Spikes: *Solitary spirits rise silently from the ground like ancient guards awaiting those that cross their path.

*Forms: *Basically all the forms stay pretty well the same, if only less obviously animal and more simply bizarre and such. However a phantom image of the spirit that is now riding the Warden can be seen as he moves about the battlefield.


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## OchreJelly (Jan 6, 2009)

Fallen Seraph said:


> *Warden's Grasp: *Replace the spectral vines with spectral hands and limbs and you got that covered.
> 
> *Weight of Earth: *Spirits grasp and claw at the enemy like an angry mob. While your blade strikes home.
> 
> *Earth Spikes: *Solitary spirits rise silently from the ground like ancient guards awaiting those that cross their path.




Wow I like that for my dwarf idea.  I would change "spirit" to "ancestor" for my dwarf guy who dabbles a lot in earth and "dwarven ancestral" powers... hmmm I may need to roll up a character here...

The crunch in me also can't deny the appealing synergy of dwarven racial with the second wind buff this class provides.


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

Mad Mac said:


> That's a fair point. You could sub in "stone" or "rock" for some of them, but even that'll only get you so far.



As others have pointed out during the Golden Wyvern Adept business, you can change the name for something, but then that leads to this, every time the power is used:

I'm going to use X!
What's X do?
Well, it's Y, just named X.
Then why not call it Y?
Because I don't like Y.

Or:

I'm going to use X!
How does that work?
Well, I need to look it up. Wait... it's not in the book.
DIdn't you rename it?
Yes! What did I rename, though?


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

Fallen Seraph said:


> Fluff wise, well like I always do when it comes to magical classes there will be refluffing. Specifically when it comes to Primal the theme has been emphasizing the spirits and deemphasizing the nature connection.



How does this relate to your voodoo thing?

I thought barbarians were the priests of Lao, or something.


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## Fallen Seraph (Jan 6, 2009)

Yeah that is why with my fluff changes I keep the original name. Since it won't be actually referenced in game, like the Warden doesn't know when he does such and such it is called whatever.


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

Fallen Seraph said:


> Yeah that is why with my fluff changes I keep the original name. Since it won't be actually referenced in game, like the Warden doesn't know when he does such and such it is called whatever.



How does that work?

Every game I've been in, the player says what power they are using so the DM understands what they're doing.


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## Mad Mac (Jan 6, 2009)

> As others have pointed out during the Golden Wyvern Adept business, you can change the name for something, but then that leads to this, every time the power is used:




  Sure. That was a Wotc "you" not a Rechan "you", as in "Wizards could change some of the power names to rock, but that probably wouldn't help too much."


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## Fallen Seraph (Jan 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> How does this relate to your voodoo thing?



Hmm... Well that one is more a "fits any setting" initial fluff. 

For the Voodoo one, I imagine it could fit pretty closely still. As a nice counter point actually to the classes that work with the Loa, I am tempted for Wardens to work with spirits who are bound to this world because of displeasing the Loa before they were exiled and thus never reached the spirit world.

I am working on another setting (group got larger so want to try out new setting with it. Plus been reading/watching lots of cyberpunk stuff lately and with all the Primal stuff been shown and Open Grave I have brainstormed a "cyberpunk in fantasy" setting which uses Spirits as the main source for lots of what would normally be technology) and in that one. The Warden will stick pretty close to initial fluff, and actually somewhat close to Voodoo one as well, in this case they would be spirits who bound themselves to the land. After the connection between the World and the Spirit World got severed (long setting plot-point) as a last ditch effort to remain "alive".

Edit: Saw your second post. It works pretty well, the players say what mechanics happen like you know, "I rolled a 17. I rolled a 8 and is slowed" They then just do the fluff description and add any secondary effects in there, "he grows sluggish", etc.


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## OchreJelly (Jan 6, 2009)

personally I'd be happy if one of the powers had "scree" in the name somewhere.


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

Fallen Seraph said:


> I am working on another setting (group got larger so want to try out new setting with it. Plus been reading/watching lots of cyberpunk stuff lately and with all the Primal stuff been shown and Open Grave I have brainstormed a "cyberpunk in fantasy" setting which uses Spirits as the main source for lots of what would normally be technology) and in that one. The Warden will stick pretty close to initial fluff, and actually somewhat close to Voodoo one as well, in this case they would be spirits who bound themselves to the land. After the connection between the World and the Spirit World got severed (long setting plot-point).



Off-topic, but back in 3e, I was convinced you could run a wicked Cyberpunk-type game with Eberron.

The Houses make great corps. The various Grafts could function as implants.


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## Fallen Seraph (Jan 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Off-topic, but back in 3e, I was convinced you could run a wicked Cyberpunk-type game with Eberron.
> 
> The Houses make great corps. The various Grafts could function as implants.



So to not drag the thread too off-topic shall just say I plan to sooner or later make a brainstorming/what you think? Thread about the setting. It will quite a lot of text I must say


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

Fallen Seraph said:


> So to not drag the thread too off-topic shall just say I plan to sooner or later make a brainstorming/what you think? Thread about the setting. It will quite a lot of text I must say



Should be fun. Your settings are always cool.  

BACK TO THE WARDEN. 

It's amusing that the Genasi doesn't jive with the Warden's ability scores, given that they're all elemental. Sure, the Str will emphasize the actual attacks, but the Int boost doesn't help the Warden in the least.


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## Fallen Seraph (Jan 6, 2009)

I am glad there doesn't seem to be much of a concern in 4e for specific races to match classes mechanics and fluff wise.

I do wonder though/would be willing to bet. That races like Genasi and Shifters will get some Feats focused on Primal classes, Shifters obviously more pertaining to the shapeshifting aspect of some of them and Genasi the nature side.

Hmm... Any races in the past that have a legacy of dealing with/interacting with spirits?


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

I found something amusing.

In the text of the Form of the Fearsome Ram, it says:


> In addition, when you hit a target with an at-will attack, you push the target 1 square. If the attack already pushes the target, the distance of the push increases by 1 square.



None of the Warden's at-wills push. So, what use is that note?


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

Fallen Seraph said:


> I am glad there doesn't seem to be much of a concern in 4e for specific races to match classes mechanics and fluff wise.



Well, I disagree. Many races have natural fits.

I mean, many, many dwarven clerics for the +2 Wis. Tiefling and Eladrin wizards due to the +2 int. Need I mention the Elven rangers with +2 Dex and Wis? Or Halflings wiht +2 Dex/Cha and artful dodger rogues. Not to mention Half-elves being The Warlock race for the +2 Con/Cha.

In the MM, the longtooth shifters get +2 Str/Will. Which will make them a prime fit for Wildblood Wardens. The MM Razorclaw shifters got +2 Dex/Wis, which fits well with the mobile druid.


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## Mengu (Jan 6, 2009)

Free extra save at the beginning of your turn nicely counteracts any ill effects your slightly lower AC and defenses might cause.

Compared to the barbarian who is a striker, I think the warden feels balanced in being a defender. I can now see some of the design decissions behind the barbarian a little bit better. Compared to PHB fighter or paladin, the warden feels a bit strong, but compared to MP fighter or Swordmage, it feels reasonable. I see a bit of power creep, but not game breaking so far. The class still fits into its role, and does it well enough without making other classes feel obsolete.

I'm liking a dwarf warden. I think the extra hit points can go a long way, especially considering you can stack Toughness on top of the nice boost in hit points. A Dwarf Warden with 16 Con could easily start with 38 HP's. Strength of Stone will provide a nice stream of temporary hit points. And dwarves love to use their second wind every encounter, which gains some additional benefit from a class feature.


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## Mad Mac (Jan 6, 2009)

> Hmm... Any races in the past that have a legacy of dealing with/interacting with spirits?




 Not that I know of. We're getting Shifters, Half-Orcs, and Goliaths with the PHB 2 though, so I'm sure we'll see a good number of primal feats for these three. 

  Racial Feats are going to be a tricky issue going forward, I think. They might wait until Primal Power to introduce a lot of Primal Feats for all races, as they could run into space issues otherwise. Bad enough to introduce 8 new classes and 5 new races with at least some support for existing races and classes, much less every other race that has been released up to that point.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jan 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I found something amusing.
> 
> In the text of the Form of the Fearsome Ram, it says:
> 
> None of the Warden's at-wills push. So, what use is that note?




Future powers and feats that may add a push.


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

Since the PHB2 won't have to have all the game rules, I'm sure there would be more room for feats and new stuff.

But then, I'm hoping there's just a lot of _general_ feats, that work for all classes.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I found something amusing.
> 
> In the text of the Form of the Fearsome Ram, it says:
> 
> None of the Warden's at-wills push. So, what use is that note?




Multi-classing & item powers.

Edit: My bad, didn't read the original description close enough. That is a puzzler, but good for any future expansions.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> How does that work?
> 
> Every game I've been in, the player says what power they are using so the DM understands what they're doing.




Most of the time, we do it this way, too. But if you think about it - why? It is not like the DM will know the power in detail. If he asks because he thinks something is wrong, you still can point to the actual power. An option might be to announce the real name on the powers first use, so everyone knows that there it is not all made up.


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> An option might be to announce the real name on the powers first use, so everyone knows that there it is not all made up.



But of course, that doesn't apply to encounter powers. Since you only use it once. 

I don't know. I have to poke my players to give any detail as to what they do. So I imagine YMMV.


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## Deverash (Jan 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> It's amusing that the Genasi doesn't jive with the Warden's ability scores, given that they're all elemental. Sure, the Str will emphasize the actual attacks, but the Int boost doesn't help the Warden in the least.




Actually, since the Genasi _are_ elemental, they don't need to.  According to the Primal fluff, the primal spirits awoke to deny the Gods and the Primordials(i.e. elemental powers) a battleground.


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## Rechan (Jan 6, 2009)

Deverash said:


> Actually, since the Genasi _are_ elemental, they don't need to.  According to the Primal fluff, the primal spirits awoke to deny the Gods and the Primordials(i.e. elemental powers) a battleground.



Yes yes, from the way the default setting works, correct.

I'm just saying 'Genasi - elementally related, Wardens, elementally related, you'd think the two would work together'.


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## OchreJelly (Jan 6, 2009)

It seems like the fluff is firmly rooted in "The World" with some extension into the feywild.  This sort of caught me off-guard since I was expecting a strong connection to elemental chaos, but I do like it.  It leaves plenty of design space dedicated to elementalists - the real challenge will be making sure the flavor of that power source doesn't overlap too much with primal.

I do like these divisions though:
Astral = Divine
World / feywild = Primal
Elelmental Chaos = ?

I could hazard to say: World / Shadowfell = Shadow

Yes... I realize I'm looking for needless symetry...


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## TwoSix (Jan 6, 2009)

OchreJelly said:


> It seems like the fluff is firmly rooted in "The World" with some extension into the feywild.  This sort of caught me off-guard since I was expecting a strong connection to elemental chaos, but I do like it.  It leaves plenty of design space dedicated to elementalists - the real challenge will be making sure the flavor of that power source doesn't overlap too much with primal.
> 
> I do like these divisions though:
> Astral = Divine
> ...




Elemental Chaos might be the elemental power source.  Just a guess


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## OchreJelly (Jan 6, 2009)

gah I don't remember reading about the elemental power source.  Well there you have it!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> But of course, that doesn't apply to encounter powers. Since you only use it once.



When I say "Once" I mean it.  
Once per session at most. Of course, if there is only one encounter per session.


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## catsclaw227 (Jan 6, 2009)

OchreJelly said:


> gah I don't remember reading about the elemental power source.  Well there you have it!



I don't think it's "official" yet, though.   It might have been mentioned in the preview 4e book Worlds and Monsters (or whatever the book was called).  But that is ALL subject to change.


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## Shroomy (Jan 6, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> I don't think it's "official" yet, though.   It might have been mentioned in the preview 4e book Worlds and Monsters (or whatever the book was called).  But that is ALL subject to change.




I believe it was listed as one of the 8 power sources in the PHB:  martial, divine, arcane, primal, shadow, psionic, ki, and elemental.


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## catsclaw227 (Jan 6, 2009)

Well if that's the case, then I guess we have the list.  

I really should sit and READ the PHB instead of skim and reference from it, though I think I have read enough to understand the full paradigm shift necessary to DM and play.  Between running a converted Paragon Age of Worms and doing some one shot games of lower level play, I feel pretty comfortable at this point.  

I can't wait to start running Scales of War in a couple of weeks!


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## Spatula (Jan 6, 2009)

Thundershield said:


> EDIT: As for the Warden class, the only peeve I have about it is that I find it hard to tie a concept or feel to it. I'm guessing it's a Warrior of Nature deal, but are we talking about a concept like the big burly bearskin-cloaked man living up on the mountain? Or maybe a tribal warrior focused more on shamanism than berserker strength? What other kinds of concepts do you have for the Warden?



The warden is a fighter/druid.  Or if that's too self-referential, the warden is a tribal guardian or a spirit warrior; similar to the barbarian but controlling natural forces rather than being controlled by them.


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## Felon (Jan 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Yes yes, from the way the default setting works, correct.
> 
> I'm just saying 'Genasi - elementally related, Wardens, elementally related, you'd think the two would work together'.



Getting a boost to the prime stat (Str) seems to make them fit the bill okay, even if the Int bonus means they don't dovetail perfectly. I mean, if dwarves are supposed to be ideal fighters, then surely genasi pass muster for warden. Also, the racial genasi powers are pretty defendery.


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## Rechan (Jan 9, 2009)

A minotaur would make a fun warden. Not just because of the +2 Str/Con, but having the mentality of the Guardian of the Maze.


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## Cadfan (Jan 9, 2009)

Spatula said:


> Neither does the fighter - the movement stopping ability only works with movement-provoked OAs.



Right, right, the Fighter doesn't actually _stop_ you from shifting away from him, but he does dissuade you from doing it by gaining a free basic melee attack.  The Warden, by contrast, just sadly waves goodbye, and then gets all weepy and pulls you back.


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## Stogoe (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm willing to bet that the Elemental power source will come from the Primordials, similar to how the Divine power source comes from the Gods.


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## amysrevenge (Jan 9, 2009)

Spatula said:


> the warden is a tribal guardian or a spirit warrior; similar to the barbarian but controlling natural forces rather than being controlled by them.




I like this distinction.  Very good.


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