# What is and isn't Space Opera?



## Yora (Jul 6, 2022)

As genres go, Space Opera seems to be particularly undefined, yet it has continued to be one of the most popular ones for a very long time. (Perhaps _because_ people use it for all kinds of different things?)

Instead of looking up and comparing various definitions by people who also just put their subjective gut feelings into words, what does your intuition say makes something Space Opera or clearly something else? Do you have any well known works that are frequently called Space Opera but you think have some traits that don't work with the general Space Opera idea?

One thing for me that is an absolutely necessity is Interstellar Travel at a speed that allows characters to travel back and forth between different inhabited planets. (Which is why Interstellar would not be a space opea because all the planets are empty.)
If protagonists are stuck on a single planet, it's not a Space Opera. (There could be Space Operas in the world of Bladerunner, but Deckard's story is not one.)

At least 9 times out of 10, Space Operas have alien characters, but there are enough exceptions that still feel very much like Space Opera to not make that a mandatory necessity.


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## John R Davis (Jul 6, 2022)

-Absolutely it's space travel, long distances, very fast. 
-Time of conflict is the backdrop. 
-A romance / relationship.

With a nice sprinkle of aliens (goodies and baddies) and high tech fantastical weapons, and rollicking heroic adventure!

In an RPG it needs a fast mechanic for action, lots hand wavy tech, and PCs capable of grand deeds.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> If protagonists are stuck on a single planet, it's not a Space Opera.



That has it's own subgenre - planetary romance.


Yora said:


> At least 9 times out of 10, Space Operas have alien characters, but there are enough exceptions that still feel very much like Space Opera to not make that a mandatory necessity.



No, Firefly has no aliens and is clearly space opera. Technically it doesn't have intersteller travel either, interplanetary is enough, if the planets are inhabited.


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## Imaculata (Jul 6, 2022)

To me a space opera has big battles in outer space, romance, high tech, adventure, and is often a bit campy and perhaps unrealistic. Like a soap opera in outer space, but with space tropes instead of soap tropes. It is a scifi on a grand adventurous scale. Which would make Star Wars undeniably a Space Opera, but Interstellar not so much.


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## Yora (Jul 6, 2022)

I've even read some critic or something say all Space Opera is fantasy.

While I think Star Wars is more of an exception in being full out fantasy, one thing shared by all Space Opera is that there isn't really a concern for any science. If physics terms are used, it's technobabble.
Which is why I think The Expanse doesn't feel like Space Opera. (Despite other elements gradually appearing throughout the story.)



Paul Farquhar said:


> No, Firefly has no aliens and is clearly space opera. Technically it doesn't have intersteller travel either, interplanetary is enough, if the planets are inhabited.



So you do agree with me?


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## Ryujin (Jul 6, 2022)

I think we can all agree....


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## MarkB (Jul 6, 2022)

It's a very inhabited setting, in which space just happens to be the backdrop against which the thrilling action happens. This isn't a setting in which 99.9% of the star systems you visit are devoid of life.

The reason why there needs to be fast, easy travel is that this is a setting in which scale doesn't really matter. The protagonists may travel across half a galaxy, and find entire planets to visit, but we'll only see around 1-3 locations on any particular planet - for all that it matters, it might as well be the size of a city, or even a small town.

Stargate SG-1 is a great example of this, with a McGuffin that plays right into it. The heroes visit a whole range of different worlds, but on any one of those worlds they'll rarely see anything beyond a 1-2 mile radius of the location of the Stargate - and since the Stargates are travel hubs, it even makes sense in-universe that most of the interesting stuff on a planet will be near by to them.


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## Yora (Jul 6, 2022)

Do you consider Stargate to be Space Opera?


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## John R Davis (Jul 6, 2022)

I don't see Expanse or Firefly as Space Opera, the latter especially not feeling " big enough".
Dark Matter feels big enough.
Killjoys not quite.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 6, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> I don't see Expanse or Firefly as Space Opera, the latter especially not feeling " big enough".
> Dark Matter feels big enough.
> Killjoys not quite.



What are they then?

They aren't hard SF*, and they aren't planetary romance.


*You might make a case for The Expanse being this.


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## Janx (Jul 6, 2022)

Babylon 5.

Literally intended to mimic BBC space operas. It is the American Gold Standard of Space Opera.

It is also the show that standardized serial storytelling outside of actual soap opera shows. Which Deep Space 9 changed its format to, and shows like Buffy, Lost, Battlestar Galactica all followed.

Frankly, the measure of how Space Opera-ish a show is should be measured in Babylons, with 5 being the most.

Seriously. HTF do you get 8 replies in on the subject and nobody mentions it.


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## Yora (Jul 6, 2022)

Because it's so obvious. 

Useful definitions of a category are made by separating the fringe cases.


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## Ryujin (Jul 6, 2022)

I think that "Space Opera" is more about tone, than much of anything else. The early stuff in "The Expanse" qualifies as Space Opera because of the broad, sweeping narrative. It's about one group of people but it covers massive, game changing events. Spectacle is a big part of it. Big and dramatic for the win. Hard SF, Science Fantasy, doesn't really matter. That's all flavour. If you can't imagine the Fat Lady singing, it probably isn't Space opera.


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## payn (Jul 6, 2022)

I think having intelligent aliens or faster than light travel is a minor consideration of space opera. Instead of any particular distinctions, usually space opera will not have a heavy focus on technology and science and how things that are capable are capable. The real focus is on a fantasy driven drama that has more in common with young adult fiction and action movies. It's simple white hat black hat morality tales with bigger than life occurrences. Space Opera will rely on heavy doses of tropes and things like Deus Ex Machina. (Which is why most of _Interstellar_ doesnt seem like space opera, but appears so by the end).

Using a separate genre to give an example of what I mean in spy stories. _Tinker, Tailor, Solider, Spy_ by John LeCarre is a political intrigue story about clandestine agencies and the people who work for them. Any character is capable of being good or bad, and ultimately nobody saves the day. You either achieve your goals, fail them, or get killed. Whereas James Bond flicks are action oriented where you know there is a good guy and bad guy going to duke it out. Bond will also have laser watches and other devices that save his bacon at the last second. It's not meant to be a compelling drama, its entertainment. A fantasy, an escape, instead of an immersive experience.


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## dragoner (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> Space Opera seems to be particularly undefined ...



I think it is just a broad category, genres have to be, too narrow and the stories become limited. Contrast it to Hard SF, which most hard sci-fi is not all that hard, and the name seems to attract a toxic fandom, looking at the discords. Space Opera though, seems to be broad in scope, galaxy spanning, and of an epic nature. Similar to the Odyssey in space.


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## Yora (Jul 6, 2022)

What does broad scope and epic nature mean in practical terms? I've seen them thrown around quite a lot in many places where people wrote about Space Opera, but never being specific what that means.

I think both are fancy expression to say "big". And as a distinguishing trait, it really has to say "bigger".
But bigger than what? What does it compare to?


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## payn (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> What does broad scope and epic nature mean in practical terms? I've seen them thrown around quite a lot in many places where people wrote about Space Opera, but never being specific what that means.
> 
> I think both are fancy expression to say "big". And as a distinguishing trait, it really has to say "bigger".
> But bigger than what? What does it compare to?



Epic in nature as in world ending implications that come down to one person or group, like _Guardians of the Galaxy _compared to_ Apollo 13. _One story has the fate of millions and billions of lives at stake. A ragtag unreliable group of misfits come together and forma  super group to save the day. Meanwhile, A13 is just a trip into outer space, where mechanical problems put the lives of the astronauts at risk. If the A13 crew dies, its sad, but life goes on. It's an interesting story in a small pocket for those effected, it doesnt effect every person and the day isnt saved by some miracle.


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## dragoner (Jul 6, 2022)

The characters are bigger, vs average joes.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 6, 2022)

dragoner said:


> The characters are bigger, vs average joes.



Yup. Bruce Boxleitner is a good seven inches taller than me.


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## payn (Jul 6, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Yup. Bruce Boxleitner is a good seven inches taller than me.



7? Would that make you a below average Joe?


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## Yora (Jul 6, 2022)

I think where the grand scope of Space Opera really manifests the most is a sense that a single person can never really learn about all the inhabited planets that are theoretically accessible to them. As a space traveler, you could keep going forever and there's always more worlds "beyond the horizon". Of course, a galaxy does have edges, but if you reach one you can just turn the ship around and head into a new direction. You're always only going to see slices of your galaxy, but it's too big visit it all.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 6, 2022)

payn said:


> 7? Would that make you a below average Joe?



Nah, I'm a very tall average joe dwarf.


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## Umbran (Jul 6, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> No, Firefly has no aliens and is clearly space opera.




Space Opera tends to happen in the context of war, or at least a conflict with broad impact, which Firefly doesn't.  If the Firefly crew fails... they don't get paid.  It isn't until the movie that they muck in on larger issues - the film might be Space Opera, while the series (as much of it as we got) isn't.

Firefly probably ought to be called a Space Western, or maybe Horse Opera in Space.



dragoner said:


> The characters are bigger, vs average joes.




And by "bigger" it is mostly in terms of the melodrama.  They don't need to be particularly powerful, or skilled.

Security Chief Garibaldi, from Babylon 5, is a very basic kind of guy - former infantry, security officer, alcoholic.  He's good at his job, but he's no genius, no superhero, or anything.  But he's got personality in abundance, and is wrapped up i things above his pay grade.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 6, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Space Opera tends to happen in the context of war



That's a new one on me. Military sci fi is its own sub-genre.


Umbran said:


> Firefly probably ought to be called a Space Western



"Space Western" could cover everything from Star Trek TOS to the Mandalorian, but I don't think its generally considered a formal genre, and all those go in the Space Opera bucket, which is really a catch-all for any science fiction that isn't clearly something else.


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## MarkB (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> Do you consider Stargate to be Space Opera?



A lot of it, certainly. Once they start getting spaceships of their own and having big space battles, a fair number of episodes fall well within the genre, and even early on they've got a lot of the trappings.


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## Yora (Jul 6, 2022)

Space Operas being about wars with galactic stakes is a commonly stated trait.

But that would mean that Star Trek isn't space opera, with only a few episodes being exceptions. And surely that can't be right.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> Space Operas being about wars with galactic stakes is a commonly stated trait.
> 
> But that would mean that Star Trek isn't space opera, with only a few episodes being exceptions. And surely that can't be right.



Large scale epic conflict is a common trait in space opera, but it's not a requirement.


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## dragoner (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> But that would mean that Star Trek isn't space opera, with only a few episodes being exceptions.



Indeed it is often not included, story-wise. Though one has to delineate what the discussion is about, RPG's can differ from film, television, or novels.


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## payn (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> Space Operas being about wars with galactic stakes is a commonly stated trait.
> 
> But that would mean that Star Trek isn't space opera, with only a few episodes being exceptions. And surely that can't be right.



Depends on the Trek. Many of the movies are pretty clearly space opera in a dramatic sense. I dont think the galactic war is a necessary element but a common one.


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## dragoner (Jul 6, 2022)

Another way one could look at it is big picture vs slice of life.


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## Umbran (Jul 6, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> That's a new one on me. Military sci fi is its own sub-genre.




Yes, but genres should be described by inclusion, not exclusion.  Just as you can have a "space Western", which has the tropes of both sci-fi, and westerns, you can be Space Opera _and_ Military sci-fi.

_Star Wars_ is iconic space opera - lots of war there, it is in the title, even.  _Babylon 5_ is space opera - the main characters are mostly career military, and there's several wars in the 5 years of the series.  _Battlestar Galactica_ is space opera.

_Starship Troopers_ (either book or movie) is Military Sci-fi, but most wouldn't call it Space Opera.



Paul Farquhar said:


> "Space Western" could cover everything from Star Trek TOS to the Mandalorian, but I don't think its generally considered a formal genre




There is no such thing as "formal genre".  But, as evidence, the following is a comic book cover from 1952:


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## Ryujin (Jul 6, 2022)

If we're going back to the middle of the last century for Space Opera, then this might just be the defining series:


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## Yora (Jul 6, 2022)

The say a picture says more than a thousand words, but could you elaborate more?


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## gamerprinter (Jul 6, 2022)

I don't know if I can claim the third party Starfinder setting I'm developing is space opera, or not. Some of the qualifications are ticked off, though some aren't. It's Starfinder, so many aliens out there, though my setting is a bit more conservative race multitude-wise, compared to Starfinder default, as well as both magic and fantastical technology it fits, though is more fantasy otherwise than other space operas. My setting, the Kronusverse is a vast region of space within proximity to Earth (so the Milky Way, more or less) with dozens of inhabited human colonies set in a region occupied by aliens. FTL or hyperspace travel is essential for making the vast distances manageable. All this fits space opera, certainly. 

Where I deviate, is while I fully accept the fantastical elements, at the same time, I lean harder sci-fi, and inject a little more science. While every star system (at least the colonized ones) feature one or more inhabitable planets. They exist in systems with largely uninhabitable, and scientifically viable worlds. But I'm working in a wide spectrum between Traveller style quasi-realism and wahoo Starfinder default. It's a weird medium to play in. Maybe it's just another derivation of space opera, without a true category of it's own.


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## Ryujin (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> The say a picture says more than a thousand words, but could you elaborate more?



On Doc Smith's "Lensmen"? Sure. It's a galaxy(ies) spanning series of adventure novels. Very "Star Wars" meets "Flash Gordon" in presentation. There is a species of altruistic uber-aliens who create "The Lens", which is a device that unlocks the psychic potential of appropriately capable creatures. These creatures, starting with humans, form The Lensmen Corps who are, for wont of a better term, galactic cops. There is also a race of evil uber-aliens, who operate a criminal organization called Boskone. This forms the basis for the conflict between good and evil, in the Lensmen universe.


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## gamerprinter (Jul 6, 2022)

I think Space Opera has a backdrop of war, but needn't be military sci-fi. Star Wars has that episode which is military heavy, but all the Star Wars are in various states of conflict between the Alliance (and related groups) with the Imperium (at related governments).


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## Grendel_Khan (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> The say a picture says more than a thousand words, but could you elaborate more?




Just Google Lensman. It’s the foundational and defining text for the genre, and everything that’s followed either directly or indirectly drew from it.

ETA: I don't actually recommend reading the Lensman books, necessarily—I find all of that author's stuff lifeless and all tell, no show—but GURPS Lensman is a great overview of the setting, and the space opera tropes it kicked off. Like a lot of GURPS books it's useful even if you have no love for the GURPS rules.



			GURPS Lensman


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## Twiggly the Gnome (Jul 6, 2022)

How important is space to Space Opera? Dune is often cited as Space Opera, but not until late in the series do the protagonists or antagonists have any meaningful interaction with space travel. The Spacing Guild would serve the same purpose if they were teleportation node operators.


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## Yora (Jul 6, 2022)

Dune is very much interplanetary, though. Almost no time is spend on space ships and much of the story is shown from the perspective of characters mostly stuck to one planet, but the story as a whole is all about events that happen on different planets at the same time. Even the first book has things that happen on the Artreides planet, on Dune, on the Harkonen planet, and on the Emperor's planet. And they are not separate plotlines running in paralel, but the same struggle.

The reason that I think Stargate doesn't feel like Space Opera is that it's about contemporary humans who never really leave Earth behind to become part of a greater world. They use contemporary technology and the people they meet are also humans or effectively demon-possessed humans. They never take the "first step into a greater world". It feels more like an alien invasion story in which most of the fighting takes place on the doorsteps of Earth than actually Earth itself. Though I know that later in the series they do introduce all kinds of space ships.

Another thing I've seen described as space opera but really doesn't feel like it to me are the Riddick movies. Which I really quite like as the B-Movies they are. Again, they don't feel like there exists a greater universe beyond the horizon. I only recall one intelligent alien and that one took on a normal human appearance. There is some space magic and the conquerors in the second movie have very big and stylish ships, but the setting does not have the feel of a great scope and alien worlds.
Same thing also with The Expanse, but I only know that story up to getting access to the gates. It might change after that.


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## payn (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> Dune is very much interplanetary, though. Almost no time is spend on space ships and much of the story is shown from the perspective of characters mostly stuck to one planet, but the story as a whole is all about events that happen on different planets at the same time. Even the first book has things that happen on the Artreides planet, on Dune, on the Harkonen planet, and on the Emperor's planet. And they are not separate plotlines running in paralel, but the same struggle.
> 
> The reason that I think Stargate doesn't feel like Space Opera is that it's about contemporary humans who never really leave Earth behind to become part of a greater world. They use contemporary technology and the people they meet are also humans or effectively demon-possessed humans. They never take the "first step into a greater world". It feels more like an alien invasion story in which most of the fighting takes place on the doorsteps of Earth than actually Earth itself. Though I know that later in the series they do introduce all kinds of space ships.
> 
> ...



I dont get the greater universe requirement. I have never heard it actually being required by anybody for space opera until now. Can you point out where you got this idea? Or is this just a personal criteria? Honestly curious.


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## MarkB (Jul 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> The reason that I think Stargate doesn't feel like Space Opera is that it's about contemporary humans who never really leave Earth behind to become part of a greater world. They use contemporary technology and the people they meet are also humans or effectively demon-possessed humans. They never take the "first step into a greater world". It feels more like an alien invasion story in which most of the fighting takes place on the doorsteps of Earth than actually Earth itself. Though I know that later in the series they do introduce all kinds of space ships.



Yeah, you might want to check out that "later in the series". Humanity becomes one of the big players in the galaxy, they ally with a major alien race, meet several others, lead a slave rebellion that defeats those "demons", quest for ancient technologies, and fight off an intergalactic invasion led by godlike beings.


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## Yora (Jul 6, 2022)

It is my subjective feeling.
Because all the works I would think of as being Space Opera have it.

Are there any works that you think are space opera on other grounds but don't have it?


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## Umbran (Jul 6, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> ETA: I don't actually recommend reading the Lensman books, necessarily—I find all of that author's stuff lifeless and all tell, no show




Note that _Triplanetary_, the first of the series, was written in 1948.  I think most of us would find much of the stuff of the time to be similarly dry.  

And, for those who are interested, the term "space opera" was apparently first used in 1941, by a fan writer in a fanzine of the time, and he used it as a pejorative term.


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## Umbran (Jul 6, 2022)

payn said:


> I dont get the greater universe requirement. I have never heard it actually being required by anybody for space opera until now.




The scope being larger than a single world is a pretty common expectation for Space Opera.

To quote TV Tropes:

_"Space Opera refers to works set in a spacefaring civilization, usually set in the far future or A Long Time Ago, in a Galaxy Far, Far Away.... Technology is ubiquitous and secondary to the story. Space opera has an epic character to it: the universe is big, there are usually many sprawling civilizations and empires, there are political conflicts and intrigue. The action will range across part of a solar system at a minimum, and more commonly will extend over large tracts of a galaxy or several. It frequently takes place in a Standard Sci Fi Setting. It has a romantic element which distinguishes it from most hard science fiction: big love stories, epic space battles, oversized heroes and villains, awe-inspiring scenery, and insanely gorgeous men and women."_

And Wikipedia:

_"Space opera is a subgenre of science fiction that emphasizes science fictional space warfare, with use of melodramatic, risk-taking space adventures, relationships, and chivalric romance. Set mainly or entirely in outer space, it features technological and social advancements (or lack thereof) in faster-than-light travel, futuristic weapons, and sophisticated technology, on a backdrop of galactic empires and interstellar wars with fictional aliens, often in fictional galaxies."_


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## payn (Jul 6, 2022)

Umbran said:


> The scope being larger than a single world is a pretty common expectation for Space Opera.
> 
> To quote TV Tropes:
> 
> ...



Gotcha. The bolded element has always been the most important part I heard folks attribute to space opera in the past. Having a very large interstellar civilization, but more slice of life as Dragoner put it, wouldn't seem like space opera to me.


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## Ryujin (Jul 6, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Note that _Triplanetary_, the first of the series, was written in 1948.  I think most of us would find much of the stuff of the time to be similarly dry.
> 
> And, for those who are interested, the term "space opera" was apparently first used in 1941, by a fan writer in a fanzine of the time, and he used it as a pejorative term.



I don't find them any more dry than "Buck Rogers" or "Flash Gordon" but, then again, my all-time favourite movie is "The Day the Earth Stood Still." "Forbidden Planet" is a close second.

As you previously said, the "Lensmen" series is seminal. If someone wanted to study Science Fiction, as a genre, then Asimov and Doc Smith are the two authors that I would put on the top of my list. "Lensmen" was the first place I saw the term "The Look of Eagles." I wasn't sure that I understood it, until I looked at the faces of American astronauts, from the beginnings of the Space Race.


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## Sepulchrave II (Jul 7, 2022)

I agree it's a bit of an ambiguous genre, but I think it needs to include a few things:

Wide scope and multiple locations reached by FTL ships
Unambiguous "goodies" and "baddies" with characterization verging on caricature
Cool and improbable exploits by protagonists
And most importantly:

Huge ships pounding the crap out of each other in a fashion reminiscent of 19th-century naval warfare


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## Older Beholder (Jul 7, 2022)

I always thought the Opera part came from soap opera. 
Small scale personal dramas against a broad brush stroke, space epic backdrop.


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## Leatherhead (Jul 7, 2022)

Cowboy Bebop is supposed to be "Space Jazz" and was made in direct contrast to Space Operas.


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## SJB (Jul 7, 2022)

John Clute’s _Encyclopaedia_ _of_ _Science_ _Fiction_ (1978) is an excellent resource with a constantly updated online edition. It points out that “soap opera” was an active term only from 1938 and that “space opera” was coined in 1941 for “hacky” “spaceship yarns”. Although it is possible to retrofit the term to earlier works, the suggested foundational authors are Doc Smith, Edmond Hamilton, Ray Cummings (me neither), John W Campbell and Jack Williamson.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Note that _Triplanetary_, the first of the series, was written in 1948. I think most of us would find much of the stuff of the time to be similarly dry.




_1984, I Capture the Castle, The Naked and the Dead, The Little Sister, The Day of the Triffids, I Robot..._


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## Tonguez (Jul 7, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Paul Farquhar said:
> 
> 
> > That's a new one on me. Military sci fi is its own sub-genre.
> ...




It has been observed that most early Space Opera was just adapting Western plots to extraplanetary settings, so yeah Im with you that Space Western is just a type of Space Opera.
of course Im a fan of the Planetary Romances, so Im cool with dat


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 7, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> It has been observed that most early Space Opera was just adapting Wesren plots to extraplanetary settings, so yeah Im with you that Space Western is just a type of Space Opera.
> of course Im a fan of the Planetary Romances, so Im cool with dat



I think it's generally accepted that the is a huge overlap between the Western genre and the Space Opera genre. To an extent the Western morphed into Space Opera as the Old West faded from memory.


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## John R Davis (Jul 7, 2022)

But mahoosive western.
Not localised ashtrays in space but gigantic golden ciggarello cases in SPACE!
So not firefly.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 7, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> But mahoosive western.
> Not localised ashtrays in space but gigantic golden ciggarello cases in SPACE!
> So not firefly.



You don't want to sell me deathsticks.

You want to go home and rethink your life.


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## Davies (Jul 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Note that _Triplanetary_, the first of the series, was written in 1948.  I think most of us would find much of the stuff of the time to be similarly dry.



Uh, slight correction -- the revised version of _Triplanetary_ was published as a book in 1948, but the original version of it was first serialized in _1934._ (And if you want to get _really_ dry, you need to go back to Doc's _The Skylark of Space_, which was published in 1928.)


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 7, 2022)

Davies said:


> Uh, slight correction -- the revised version of _Triplanetary_ was published as a book in 1948, but the original version of it was first serialized in _1934._ (And if you want to get _really_ dry, you need to go back to Doc's _The Skylark of Space_, which was published in 1928.)



Really, these books are dry because they are pulp fiction, not because they hadn't invented decent writing in the past!

As was normal for the time, most of these stories where first published in magazines. Smith was a near-contemporary of Burroughs and Howard, overlapping at the other end with Wyndham and Asimov. He wasn't as good a writer as any of those, but he got in before Asimov with the galaxy-spanning empires.

Actually, I think it was largely Poul Anderson who ran with the galactic empire idea whist Asimov was still on Earth playing with robots.


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## beancounter (Jul 7, 2022)

In a space opera, characters are the central focus instead of the technology.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 7, 2022)

In a space opera no one can hear you sing.


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## Davies (Jul 7, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Actually, I think it was largely Poul Anderson who ran with the galactic empire idea whist Asimov was still on Earth playing with robots.



_Pebble In The Sky_, Asimov's first novel (set on a far future Earth that is rebelling against a Galactic Empire of human origin), was published in 1950. Poul Anderson's first Dominic Flandry story came out in 1951.

It's close, but Asimov got there first.


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## dragoner (Jul 7, 2022)

I have read the origin of the term is a spin off of "Horse Opera": Horse opera - Wikipedia


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 7, 2022)

Davies said:


> _Pebble In The Sky_, Asimov's first novel (set on a far future Earth that is rebelling against a Galactic Empire of human origin), was published in 1950. Poul Anderson's first Dominic Flandry story came out in 1951.
> 
> It's close, but Asimov got there first.



I haven't read that one, I wonder if it's on Kindle?


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## Umbran (Jul 7, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> _1984, I Capture the Castle, The Naked and the Dead, The Little Sister, The Day of the Triffids, I Robot..._




Sturgeon's Law applies.  If you cherry pick a handful, you can have that list all be good, but then there's the other 90%.

Assuming that the names we know today are _representative_ of the past is a failure to recognize survivor bias in action.


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## Umbran (Jul 7, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> It has been observed that most early Space Opera was just adapting Western plots to extraplanetary settings, so yeah Im with you that Space Western is just a type of Space Opera.




You cannot look at only the beginning of one genre, and then take it that for all time these things are basically the same.  Both Westerns and Space Opera have changed and developed since then.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Sturgeon's Law applies.  If you cherry pick a handful, you can have that list all be good, but then there's the other 90%.
> 
> Assuming that the names we know today are _representative_ of the past is a failure to recognize survivor bias in action.



The quality of writing hasn't changed since Shakespeare died, and it dropped.

Survivor bias means that the bad stuff gets forgotten so the average quality of not-forgotten writing from any period is going to be higher than the average quality of new books.

E.E. Doc Smith isn't (quite) forgotten, so his stuff must be (slightly) above average. There is a lot of stuff published in 2022 that is much worse. Fortunately, it will be forgotten.

Now, if you want to call out Smith on his attitudes and values, he wasn't progressive...


----------



## Umbran (Jul 7, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The quality of writing hasn't changed since Shakespeare died, and it dropped.




I have no freakin' idea what you're saying here.



Paul Farquhar said:


> Survivor bias means that the bad stuff gets forgotten...




No.  Survivor bias means that what you have after filtering is not representative of the whole population.  You can't look at Asimov, Doc Smith, and Burroughs, and understand the writing of the age, in general.



Paul Farquhar said:


> E.E. Doc Smith isn't (quite) forgotten, so his stuff must be (slightly) above average.




Careful there - there are many ways to be "above average".  Being above average _overall_ does not mean being above average in any particular aspect.  If you've got a particular criticism about, say, prose quality, being remembered now doesn't indicate higher than average prose quality, specifically.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> If you've got a particular criticism about, say, prose quality, being remembered now doesn't indicate higher than average prose quality, specifically.



Sure. And the particular comment was on the quality of the writing being flat. To which you seem to be saying "all writing was flat in those days".

Doc Smith's ideas where better, and more influential, than his writing, even if some of it was itself quite derivative (Skylark stole from HG Wells for example, but was itself ripped off by _Lost in Space_). But it was produced against a background of stuff that is largely forgotten, such as the Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers and Dan Dare comics.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> You cannot look at only the beginning of one genre, and then take it that for all time these things are basically the same.  Both Westerns and Space Opera have changed and developed since then.



As have soap operas. The folks who wrote that description likely never saw ghosts, aliens, or demonic possession in their soap operas. (No, I don't watch them, but I hear things.)


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 7, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> The folks who wrote that description likely never saw ghosts, aliens, or demonic possession in their soap operas.



Those are just the writers.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 7, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Now, if you want to call out Smith on his attitudes and values, he wasn't progressive...



No, he was definitely "of his time", and there wasn't a female Lensman until the second to last book, for example. While I can't remember it ever being overtly stated, my impression was that the Lensmen were White. That might be on me, but it would fit with SF of the time.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 7, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> As have soap operas. The folks who wrote that description likely never saw ghosts, aliens, or demonic possession in their soap operas. (No, I don't watch them, but I hear things.)



Dark Shadows was introduced 1966, so those things are long established in soap opera tropes.


----------



## HaroldTheHobbit (Jul 7, 2022)

Bickering about exact definitions of genres and subgenres is an incredibly stupid waste of time. But I'll bite  

Imho space opera has to be epic and grandiose in scale, together with some kind of accelerated protagonist character growth, and other definable stuff.

But in my own head, I define space opera more from a feeling I get when I read or watch the material, and doing academic genre deconstruction takes away most of the joy. Doc Smiths Lensman books, Star Wars and most Peter F Hamilton stuff are space opera. Star Trek is sci-fi. The Expanse would have been sci-fi, but the protomolecule turn it into space opera. Asimovs Foundation books fulfill the criteria for space opera on paper, but feels very much like sci-fi. And so on.

And that's how I like it to be when I read stuff - letting the genre define itself during the reading journey. Or better yet, be amazed over clever cross genre writing giving birth to new stuff, such as when first reading Stross' The Atrocity Archives back in the day, or when I felt Gibsons Neuromancer get all the right juices flowing as a teen.


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## Ryujin (Jul 7, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Dark Shadows was introduced 1966, so those things are long established in soap opera tropes.



Sure, except that "Dark Shadows" was specifically a horror soap. What I'm talking about are main stream soaps.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 8, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Sure, except that "Dark Shadows" was specifically a horror soap. What I'm talking about are main stream soaps.




I think the supernatural and alien stuff started showing up on soaps in the 80's, or maybe late 70's? And aliens showed up on a primetime soap that was a spinoff of Dynasty. And then, of course. there was Baywatch Nights.  _shudder_


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## Tonguez (Jul 8, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I think the supernatural and alien stuff started showing up on soaps in the 80's, or maybe late 70's? And aliens showed up on a primetime soap that was a spinoff of Dynasty. And then, of course. there was Baywatch Nights.  _shudder_



Yeah 80s had aliens, ghost and demon possession


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 8, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> letting the genre define itself during the reading journey.



I think this is an important point. Trying to have hard rules about what is an is not a certain genre is a straightjacket. Writing should be enjoyed for what it is, not which boxes it ticks.


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## Yora (Jul 8, 2022)

But then, what are genres?


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## Umbran (Jul 8, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Sure. And the particular comment was on the quality of the writing being flat. To which you seem to be saying "all writing was flat in those days".




This is a typical example of overstating.  It tends to polarize discussions.

What I said was, " I think _*most*_ of us would find _*much*_ of the stuff of the time to be similarly dry." (emphasis added)

The word "all" does not appear, and is not implied.  I purposely and explicitly put nuance in what I wrote, and you have chosen to ignore it, and outright removed it in restating my position.  The effect is you arguing against a strawman.

So, maybe stop doing that, please.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 8, 2022)

Yora said:


> But then, what are genres?




Vague categories.


----------



## Blue (Jul 8, 2022)

A few years back we were discussing as a group what to run next and I modified someone's SF with Space Opera.

For me, Space Opera is about the people.  Not in just that the story is about the people, but in a Great Man" theory - individual people are what propels the galaxy in whatever direction.  Stopping The Emperor will blunt the Empire sort of thing.

And of course that "opera" shares with "soap opera" - it's a melodrama, not a procedural type of game.  Relationships matter.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 8, 2022)

Since no one else has brought it up yet, this originally came out 40 years ago:



			Space Opera | FantasyGamesUnlimited
		


I remember owning it and now I feel old.   lol


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## dragoner (Jul 8, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Since no one else has brought it up yet, this originally came out 40 years ago:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I also owned it at the time.


----------



## Yora (Jul 9, 2022)

Is that different from the Space Opera RPG we talked about earlier?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 9, 2022)

Umbran said:


> What I said was, " I think _*most*_ of us would find _*much*_ of the stuff of the time to be similarly dry." (emphasis added)



Fine.

It's still wrong.

And since you are the one making the outrageous claim, it falls to you to provide evidence that writing in the 1940s was drier than the writing of the 2020s.

As for "most of us" it strikes me that participants on this forum are mostly well read, and have read plenty of books that are more than 80 years old (R.E. Howard for example).


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 9, 2022)

Yora said:


> Is that different from the Space Opera RPG we talked about earlier?



No, same. And it was horribly overcomplicated, not something I could recommend. Something simpler, like Star Frontiers, seems more appropriate to the genre. "Simulationist" and "Space Opera" are strange bedfellows!

Traveller, which dates back to the same period, is debatably Space Opera, although it tends towards the more serious, Foundation end.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 9, 2022)

Yora said:


> Space Operas being about wars with galactic stakes is a commonly stated trait.
> 
> But that would mean that Star Trek isn't space opera, with only a few episodes being exceptions. And surely that can't be right.



I think many episodes of Star Trek are indeed not space opera, but whatever specific genre that episode matches. Some sci-fi horror turning the crew into avatastic ancestors or a murder-mystery with a space ghost.
Deep Space Nine's Dominion War certainly falls in the scope of soap opera. TNG's story about how a Douwd that makes good tea in a nice house and genocides an entire race is not.

PErsonally I think one should never use genres to the point where they become too vast or too constraining. A thing can fall into multiple genres, and genres will have overlap. That's okay. It's just a tool to facilitate describing something, not an elementary particle or law of nature.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 9, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Since no one else has brought it up yet, this originally came out 40 years ago:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I still have it and have mentioned it in other threads. Didn't get all the ship books and I'm missing a couple of the star sector atlases, but have quite a bit of the original material.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 9, 2022)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I think many episodes of Star Trek are indeed not space opera, but whatever specific genre that episode matches. Some sci-fi horror turning the crew into avatastic ancestors or a murder-mystery with a space ghost.
> Deep Space Nine's Dominion War certainly falls in the scope of soap opera. TNG's story about how a Douwd that makes good tea in a nice house and genocides an entire race is not.
> 
> PErsonally I think one should never use genres to the point where they become too vast or too constraining. A thing can fall into multiple genres, and genres will have overlap. That's okay. It's just a tool to facilitate describing something, not an elementary particle or law of nature.



And this also applies to tabletop RPGs. You might be involved in an intergalactic war, or be hunted by monsters on an abandoned freighter, or trading cargoes between planets, or dealing with a crewmembers' personal problem. The genre might vary from session to session.


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## WayneLigon (Jul 9, 2022)

Space Opera is Big. 

There needs to be Something Big. What that Big thing is varies, but it needs to be larger than life, larger than the average largeness of fiction or  even adventure fiction usually brings to the table. Then go further and faster than that, and _then _show people that was just the start. 

The Expanse I think of as Space Opera because we have the Gates. That's certainly a Big Thing. The protovirus rebuilding parts of Venus. The vastness of the network opening up to humans basically by accident, which is the equivalent of putting a loaded revolver in the hands of a toddler. 

The Night's Dawn Trilogy by Peter F. Hamilton. Humans find out one of the Big Secrets about the universe, something the elder races already knew about but knew that humans would just have to find out for themselves. Then it goes even bigger than that. Joshua Calvert Does The Even Bigger Thing Than That near the end. 

Scope and stakes come into it as well. It's sometimes used as a decisive term but I totally think of Dune as space opera. Huge spans of time, huge effects on the entire galaxy as a whole, the fate of the entire race of humanity, etc etc.


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## bloodtide (Jul 9, 2022)

Well, to compare "soap opera" and "space opera", I get:

1.It's huge, complex, detailed and obtuse.  Unless you start at the beginning, it is utterly impossible to just watch an episode or two and  "understand and get" what is going on in the story.  Your ONLY option is to watch the whole show, and you have to accept that for some time you will be clueless and won't "get" things in the show.

2.There are lots and lots and lots and lots of characters.  Characters come and go, and can be very hard to keep track of in the story.

3.No Main Characters.  While a story thread my feature a character, they are by no means a "main" character.  As the story moves along, old characters will fade and new ones get a spotlight.  No character has plot armor and can die at any time.  No character is the "special chosen one" that the whole universe revolves around.  

4.Long storytelling with no short cuts.  When the planet Pangus makes a space force, we get to see it slowly be built over a vast course of time.  If a character falls for some addiction it's a plot point for a long, long time.  There are no quick fixes or reset buttons.

5.There is no Hollywood Endings like the demi god super hero character shoots a thingy and ALL of the alien/robot/whatevers in the whole army are automatically defeated.  Heroes do not disarm bombs by cutting the red wire with one second left.  Things are done the hard way.  The only way for a rebels to defeat the evil empire is by and endless war of attrition until the empire can't fight back.


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## MarkB (Jul 9, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> Well, to compare "soap opera" and "space opera", I get:
> 
> 1.It's huge, complex, detailed and obtuse.  Unless you start at the beginning, it is utterly impossible to just watch an episode or two and  "understand and get" what is going on in the story.  Your ONLY option is to watch the whole show, and you have to accept that for some time you will be clueless and won't "get" things in the show.
> 
> ...



So, Dune, then?


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## Twiggly the Gnome (Jul 10, 2022)

MarkB said:


> So, Dune, then?





Spoiler



Duncan Idaho


 sort of defies the third point.


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## Umbran (Jul 10, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Fine.
> 
> It's still wrong.
> 
> And since you are the one making the outrageous claim, it falls to you to provide evidence that writing in the 1940s was drier than the writing of the 2020s.




Dude.  What's with the aggressive approach?

I am stating a personal estimation - "I think," rather than "I _know_".  I am not presenting it as fact.   So no particular proof is required, because, and here's a big point - I am not _arguing_ about it.

You don't agree?  That's cool.  My life has room for people to disagree with me.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 10, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Dude. What's with the aggressive approach?



Literature is under attack from all different directions, I think it needs defending.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 10, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> Well, to compare "soap opera" and "space opera", I get:
> 
> 1.It's huge, complex, detailed and obtuse.  Unless you start at the beginning, it is utterly impossible to just watch an episode or two and  "understand and get" what is going on in the story.  Your ONLY option is to watch the whole show, and you have to accept that for some time you will be clueless and won't "get" things in the show.
> 
> ...



This sounds more like a list of "stuff I like" rather than anything recognisable as Space Opera.

It's a good list, mind.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 10, 2022)

Space Opera, Soap Opera, Horse Opera. Why OPERA? It clearly doesn't mean the story is told through song.

In understanding the terminology, it is important to understand that the term was intended as an INSULT.

So, when coined, it was intended to mean _"has the same negative characteristics as opera"._ So, what negative characteristics are commonly associated with opera? I would suggest something like this: over-long, over-dramatic, over-stated, histrionic, self-important, pretentious, mythic.

If you want evidence, go see some Wagner!


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 10, 2022)

Twiggly the Gnome said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Yora (Jul 10, 2022)

I don't think long term development can't be a criteria for a genre. A series of works does not start as one genre and then transforms into another genre once it reaches a certain length and overturn of characters.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 10, 2022)

Yora said:


> I don't think long term development can't be a criteria for a genre. A series of works does not start as one genre and then transforms into another genre once it reaches a certain length and overturn of characters.



Genre labels are usually applied retroactively. See the Lensman series.

You don't sit down and say "I'm writing a space opera". You sit down and say "I'm writing a story about a bunch of characters who become involved in an intergalactic war".


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## Yora (Jul 10, 2022)

Maybe some people. Probably mostly in the past when the genre wasn't yet established.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 10, 2022)

Yora said:


> Maybe some people. Probably mostly in the past when the genre wasn't yet established.



If you start out with "I'm writing genre X" your writing is going to be generic.

Perhaps I should rephrase to say _good_ writers don't start off with "I'm writing genre X".


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## bloodtide (Jul 10, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> This sounds more like a list of "stuff I like" rather than anything recognisable as Space Opera.
> 
> It's a good list, mind.




Well, I was comparing soap and space operas.  

1.Pick a show and sit down and watch any episode except the first one.  How easy is it get a grasp on the characters and story?  How much detail is there?  Can you figure out what is going on with ONLY the information given in the episode?

So the Episode Generator gives me: Star Trek TNG The Measure of a Man.  Simple enough spaceship has a robot and doctor wants to take it apart for study.  

Episode Generator gives me : Battlestar Galactica Season 3 Episode 5: Collaborators.  Um, yea, good luck first time watcher.

Episode Generator gives me Bablyon 5 season two The Coming of Shadows: Yea, again, good luck first time watcher.  
Take any Star Wars show.....and yup, easy to follow.  

Then take number of characters:

Star Trek TNG The Measure of a Man has Data, Picard, Riker, Madox and the Judge.  Easy.

Both Battlestar and Bablyon 5 have enough characters to fill a room.

Star Wars show, well, they stick to the five or less.

Note how both Star Trek and Star Wars shows have the same main characters for just about the whole show.

Notice how on both Battlestar and B5 "main" characters come and go...A LOT?

Notice how in Star Trek TNG they defeat the borg by "putting them all asleep", then just crossed their fingers the borg would never, ever attack again on TV.  

Notice how the resistance of B5 vs Earth took forever, even once they started engaging in combat, and slowly had to back Earth in a corner and defeat them.

Notice how in Battlestar Galactica they never found the off button to turn off all the cylons?


There are huge fundamental things here about a story.  And it works just as well with books too.


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## Ryujin (Jul 10, 2022)

Others have already stated that the name was given as an insult and I think that needs to be factored into any definition. From that angle I would define "space opera" as taking place in space while having a trite, melodramatic, and formulaic storyline. See also: "Jupiter Ascending."


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## Yora (Jul 10, 2022)

So you say space opera must by definition be bad?

The logic applied here is to let the genre be defined by someone who explicity can't see its appeal.


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## Ryujin (Jul 10, 2022)

Yora said:


> So you say space opera must by definition be bad?
> 
> The logic applied here is to let the genre be defined by someone who explicity can't see its appeal.



Trite, melodramatic, and formulaic sells, so "bad" is in the eye of the beholder


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## bloodtide (Jul 10, 2022)

Yora said:


> So you say space opera must by definition be bad?
> 
> The logic applied here is to let the genre be defined by someone who explicity can't see its appeal.




Well....by definition Soap Operas are "bad".

So the person saying something is a Space Soap Opera IS saying that it's bad.


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## MarkB (Jul 10, 2022)

Yora said:


> I don't think long term development can't be a criteria for a genre. A series of works does not start as one genre and then transforms into another genre once it reaches a certain length and overturn of characters.



A series can be all over the place genre-wise, with individual episodes exploring different themes or even genres.

Look at Doctor Who. It's a science fiction series about travelling in time and space, exploring all sorts of alien species. But many episodes feature neither time nor space travel, some don't feature aliens (beyond the main character) and genre-wise they can be all over the place, from action to mystery to horror to soap opera to comedy. And yes, sometimes even space opera.

And those certainly weren't its roots. It was originally envisioned as an exploration of history, its time-travel premise simply an excuse to place its protagonists in the right period.


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Jul 10, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Genre labels are usually applied retroactively. See the Lensman series.
> 
> You don't sit down and say "I'm writing a space opera". You sit down and say "I'm writing a story about a bunch of characters who become involved in an intergalactic war".



Unless the presumtive writer is living in a literary vacuum, I am pretty sure that they can and will genre-frame their upcoming story as space opera, or maybe military sci-fi depending on angle.

Kind of like the person that want to write a story about a teenage girl that fall in love with a handsome young vampire - I doubt they think they are writing political satire fiction. Well, the vampire might be a slightly orange-tinted former president and the girl a model from Eastern Europe, which changes things, but you get my point.


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Jul 10, 2022)

MarkB said:


> A series can be all over the place genre-wise, with individual episodes exploring different themes or even genres.
> 
> Look at Doctor Who. It's a science fiction series about travelling in time and space, exploring all sorts of alien species. But many episodes feature neither time nor space travel, some don't feature aliens (beyond the main character) and genre-wise they can be all over the place, from action to mystery to horror to soap opera to comedy. And yes, sometimes even space opera.
> 
> And those certainly weren't its roots. It was originally envisioned as an exploration of history, its time-travel premise simply an excuse to place its protagonists in the right period.



Genre mixups is a genre in itself, or at least what spawns many subgenres. But let's not turn too many postmodernist stones, or we'll change the thread subject.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jul 11, 2022)

Janx said:


> Frankly, the measure of how Space Opera-ish a show is should be measured in Babylons, with 5 being the most.
> 
> Seriously. HTF do you get 8 replies in on the subject and nobody mentions it.



I would approve of that. 


Ryujin said:


> I think that "Space Opera" is more about tone, than much of anything else. The early stuff in "The Expanse" qualifies as Space Opera because of the broad, sweeping narrative. It's about one group of people but it covers massive, game changing events. Spectacle is a big part of it. Big and dramatic for the win. Hard SF, Science Fantasy, doesn't really matter. That's all flavour. If you can't imagine the Fat Lady singing, it probably isn't Space opera.



Yep. Fifth Element, at least 3 Babylons. Could have more planetary stuff, but it also does the thing where it mixes mundane and fantastical, familiar and alien, to keep the audience off guard and delighted.


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## Yora (Jul 11, 2022)

I made a list a few days ago of works I am familiar with, and which ones of them create the space opera feel for me.

Totally Space Opera

Babylon 5
Dune
Homeworld
Mass Effect
Star Trek (60s)
Star Wars
Feels somewhat like Space Opera

Cowboy Bebop
Star Trek (80s and 90s)
StarCraft
The Fifth Element
Feels not like Space Opera

Alien
Dead Space
Halo
Riddick Series
Stargate
The Expanse
Stepping away from the general question of what space opera is, or might not be. What are the things you are hoping to see from a story when you hear it being called space opera?

Biggest thing for me are cool alien planets. The Moon or Mars won't do. They have to look cool on a wall with stuff going on. Desert planets at least have to be majestic desert planets. Places that are perhaps more out of fantasy than what you would expect from astronomy. And in 99% of cases, no character needs a space suit to walk around.

I also want to see at least half a dozen different aliens. It doesn't _have_ to have them, but I will always be very much hoping for them. Even if they are effectively just different space nationalities much more than different species.

And to be blunt: Action.
Doesn't have to be a lot. Doesn't have to be huge. Doesn't have to be fancy. But I find it very important that the characters always have to be aware that someone might try to shoot at them in an unfamiliar or hostile place. It does need to have that sense of potential danger.


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## payn (Jul 11, 2022)

Yora said:


> I made a list a few days ago of works I am familiar with, and which ones of them create the space opera feel for me.
> 
> Totally Space Opera
> 
> ...



Larger than life story. Characters that make a massive difference in the storyline. Very high stakes stories where life hangs in the balance. Only real requirement is that the setting has a space civilization. So, _Apollo 13_ and _Gravity_ dont really count as they are more slice of life stories with dramatic themes. Flicks like _Interstellar_ and _Sunshine_ fit the bill because of the high stakes and load on the characters to deliver. The lines is measured in stakes and scope of the story being told and impact the characters have on it.

Which makes your lists interesting to me. _Pitch Black_ was certainly not space opera, but the sequel was an attempt to space opera the series. _The Expanse_ starts out a hard sci-fi political intrigue story, but expands massively. With the crew surviving improbably odds repeatedly and making massive changes to humanity, it pushes that series into space opera, IMO.


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## Yora (Jul 11, 2022)

The Chronicles of Riddick (second movie) are certainly a lot more like space opera than the other two. But it still doesn't feel big to me. I just don't get a sense that there is any other civilization in this galaxy other than that one town that is being attacked, or any other faction than the townspeople and the invaders.

Having only see the Expanse TV show, the reason I don't feel the space opera mood with it is that it all feels too clean, too straightforward, and too controlled. A lot like Star Trek TNG. It's a great detective story with plenty of action moments, but it never hits the adventure button for me. In the first three seasons it's only a single system, and in season 4 it's basically a barren moon where you don't need a space suit.
But I am also not getting any of the the things I care about in the sense of space opera from Interstellar either. (Though I very much like both works as science-fiction.)


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## Ryujin (Jul 11, 2022)

I think that despite being unrepentantly military SF, Gordon R Dickson's Childe Cycle novels (might be better known as the Dorsai novels) qualify as Space Opera. The main characters are movers and shakers. They set the universe in motion. They manipulate politics, people, genetics.... Not a lot of aliens in them, but humans are on the move to become the next iteration in the species. Humanity has split off into different factions, inhabiting different worlds, and specializing in something; psychology/parapsychology, military, religion, etc..


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## payn (Jul 11, 2022)

Yora said:


> The Chronicles of Riddick (second movie) are certainly a lot more like space opera than the other two. But it still doesn't feel big to me. I just don't get a sense that there is any other civilization in this galaxy other than that one town that is being attacked, or any other faction than the townspeople and the invaders.
> 
> Having only see the Expanse TV show, the reason I don't feel the space opera mood with it is that it all feels too clean, too straightforward, and too controlled. A lot like Star Trek TNG. It's a great detective story with plenty of action moments, but it never hits the adventure button for me. In the first three seasons it's only a single system, and in season 4 it's basically a barren moon where you don't need a space suit.
> But I am also not getting any of the the things I care about in the sense of space opera from Interstellar either. (Though I very much like both works as science-fiction.)



Yeap, _The Expanse_ takes a slow ride into space opera (and didnt get to finish the even bigger ending) sort of like Game of Thrones walks into high fantasy despite being very low key in that regard for much of the series.


----------



## Yora (Jul 12, 2022)

That's actually a comparison I can support, but wouldn't have expected to ever make.


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## Umbran (Jul 12, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I think it needs defending.




It doesn't.  

I, for example, am fundamentally incapable of doing damage to literature.  My words are a thin echo that will be lost to the ether by something like the end of the week, and literature will be remembered long after there's nobody on the planet wo knows I ever existed.


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## Umbran (Jul 12, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Perhaps I should rephrase to say _good_ writers don't start off with "I'm writing genre X".




Literature is under attack, but writers are fair game?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 12, 2022)

Umbran said:


> It doesn't.
> 
> I, for example, am fundamentally incapable of doing damage to literature.  My words are a thin echo that will be lost to the ether by something like the end of the week, and literature will be remembered long after there's nobody on the planet wo knows I ever existed.



I would have thought it was very naive that someone could look at the effect of the internet on the current news agenda and think that individual voices don't add up.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 12, 2022)

Yora said:


> The logic applied here is to let the genre be defined by someone who explicity can't see its appeal.



Historically, that's where the term came from.  

If you don't like that, maybe it's time to coin a new term?


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## Yora (Jul 12, 2022)

I'm a functionalist. A words means what the majority of people using it think it means. If you think space opera means bad sci-fi, then what do you think you have to contribute to the discussion at hand?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 12, 2022)

Yora said:


> I'm a functionalist. A words means what the majority of people using it think it means. If you think space opera means bad sci-fi, then what do you think you have to contribute to the discussion at hand?



1) "Bad" is subjective. Some of those characteristics some people might view as negatives are viewed by others as positives. Some people like Wagner after all!

2) You asked "what is Space Opera", you didn't specify "omitting any traits that can viewed as negatives".

3) If you include the people who don't like science fiction in your population, I think you will find a majority of people use Space Opera to mean "particularly bad sci fi".


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Jul 12, 2022)

payn said:


> _The Expanse_ starts out a hard sci-fi political intrigue story, but expands massively. With the crew surviving improbably odds repeatedly and making massive changes to humanity, it pushes that series into space opera, IMO.



Yes, and it's one of the the best transformations from sci-fi to space opera I've read or watched.



Spoiler



It's even more interesting that the last books partly move the story back to more low-key sci-fi, it's an unusual move.


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Jul 12, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> 3) If you include the people who don't like science fiction in your population, I think you will find a majority of people use Space Opera to mean "particularly bad sci fi".



If one don't like sci-fi, read Peter F Hamiltons Night's Dawn trilogy, and still claim that Space Opera mean particularly bad sci-fi, then one are objectively wrong and have failed at reading fiction ;-)


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## Willie the Duck (Jul 12, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Others have already stated that the name was given as an insult and I think that needs to be factored into any definition. From that angle I would define "space opera" as taking place in space while having a trite, melodramatic, and formulaic storyline. See also: "Jupiter Ascending."



Factored maybe, but I'm not sure either original intent nor original definition really matter that much. Certainly not if we're trying to align our definitions or parameters to how the term is used now. 

I'm also not sure it was intended to mean trite or formulaic. I think that might be imputing our current framing of soap operas and the like on top of it, and I'm not even sure if that was the way people thought of them when the term was coined. I think melodramatic probably was a part of it, as that seems to be a common thread throughout all things with the opera moniker (including of course opera opera, which honestly I don't know how people would have seen it in the 30s and 40s). Could it been meant to convey trite and formulaic? Sure. It could also have simply meant epic and melodramatic. Or maybe even just a simple story surrounding universal themes (love, hate, heroes, villains, etc.). 


Paul Farquhar said:


> Historically, that's where the term came from.
> 
> If you don't like that, maybe it's time to coin a new term?



Here too, the later point doesn't necessarily proceed from the former. Whether the historical derivation of the term is important/relevant seems something we should be discussing. I don't think it is safe to assume it one way or the other.

Regardless, between Space Opera as I think I've seen the term used back in the day, and how it is used now, I can kinda see a few common threads. The two I feel are likely near universal are:

Scope is definitely one. _Firefly _isn't a Space Opera while _Serenity _is because the former is about a small group trying to keep fuel in their tank and money in their pockets, whereas in the later they are trying to save worlds. 
The Science Fiction has to be ubiquitous -- it isn't just the Apollo astronauts who go into space, it is lots of people (maybe most people). Enough for it to be an assumed thing. The story can be about a bunch of people stuck on Arrakis, but the world has to have differing planets in which various people travel between (and do so in a way that effects the primary plot, making _Blade Runner_ a non space opera story in a universe where one could exist).
One other thing I've noticed (and bear with me here, as I'm trying to explain a lack, and a lack of need) is thus: Space Opera tends to work as an entertaining story-- even if you ignore, remove, or never have in the first place -- any specific exploration of how the changes in society that the technology of the setting or being in the space setting would have on people or the human condition. If the story is just about the strapping space hero or space scoundrel with a heart of gold (or both) saving the space princess and battle the space warlord (or both), it still works. Obviously you can include one or both of those (see any episode of Star Trek where transporters or replicators altering daily life is explored, or B5 having a battleground between the forces of law and chaos, or whatnot), but you don't need them. Lots of other science fiction (_Jurassic Park _or _Altered Carbon_ or the like) if you remove the implications of the science in the science fiction, and you don't really have much of a story. Obviously some other science fictions also have this trait (particularly if they are not-space-opera by means of not fitting another category, such as _Firefly _and scope), but it's something I notice about Space Opera.



Janx said:


> Babylon 5.
> Literally intended to mimic BBC space operas. It is the American Gold Standard of Space Opera.
> It is also the show that standardized serial storytelling outside of actual soap opera shows. Which Deep Space 9 changed its format to, and shows like Buffy, Lost, Battlestar Galactica all followed.
> Frankly, the measure of how Space Opera-ish a show is should be measured in Babylons, with 5 being the most.
> Seriously. HTF do you get 8 replies in on the subject and nobody mentions it.



Probably because it is the gold standard for and only for western standard broadcast watching American tv viewers who came of age in the 90s, which is a sizable portion of the forum population, but not exhaustively so (and there are plenty of similar examples, up to and including those BBC space Operas). If you started in the 30s-50s, it probably was a novel. If you were into science fiction in the 60s, _Star Trek_ changed the game as much as _B5_ did in the 90s (I say this as someone who became an adult in the 90s, with Star Trek as old hat and B5 as mind-blowing). It's downright hard to exaggerate how much _Star Wars_ changed everything in the 70s. Probably plenty of things since then (maybe not even western live action shows or movies) with which I'm not even familiar, and also non-American examples. _Babylon 5_ was a game changer in quality. It's even iconic. I don't know, however, if it's definitive. I don't know what it brought to the genre that changed things in the way that, I don't know, Sherlock Holmes did for Mysteries, Roots did for dramatic miniseries, or Indiana Jones did for cliffhangers. It is simply a really good show in the genre (which is not a ding against it, that's more than I can say about half the dreck I fondly remember alongside it which, in all honesty, I can't actually defend as 'good'). .



Paul Farquhar said:


> That's a new one on me. Military sci fi is its own sub-genre.
> 
> "Space Western" could cover everything from Star Trek TOS to the Mandalorian, but I don't think its generally considered a formal genre, and all those go in the Space Opera bucket, which is really a catch-all for any science fiction that isn't clearly something else.



I think this is where I stand on Space Opera in general. It isn't any sci fi that doesn't fit another convention, but it is broad enough that most sci fi that gets made that doesn't have another genre probably fits.


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## Ryujin (Jul 12, 2022)

Willie the Duck said:


> Factored maybe, but I'm not sure either original intent nor original definition really matter that much. Certainly not if we're trying to align our definitions or parameters to how the term is used now.
> 
> I'm also not sure it was intended to mean trite or formulaic. I think that might be imputing our current framing of soap operas and the like on top of it, and I'm not even sure if that was the way people thought of them when the term was coined. I think melodramatic probably was a part of it, as that seems to be a common thread throughout all things with the opera moniker (including of course opera opera, which honestly I don't know how people would have seen it in the 30s and 40s). Could it been meant to convey trite and formulaic? Sure. It could also have simply meant epic and melodramatic. Or maybe even just a simple story surrounding universal themes (love, hate, heroes, villains, etc.).



I'll give you another example then, to try and explain my statements. Would you consider "The Fifth Element" to be space opera? It tends to fit the definitions used by many, if not most people. Think about the story. The "Chosen One" is here to save the universe. Spoiler: The universe is ultimately saved by love. The presentation is excellent. Probably one of my 5 favourite movies of all time. The story, however, is as old as time. I think that qualifies as "trite and formulaic" but, as I stated previously, that doesn't mean "bad."


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## Yora (Jul 12, 2022)

To me, this movie is on the "pass" side of borderline. The story itself is still an "monstrous alien invades Earth" plot, and it is centered around Earth, but it actually does have quite a lot of aliens, which I think might make up half of the secondary characters that play important roles in the plot. And it got lots of different space ships, a big battle on an alien ship, and even some explosions in space.
If you'd rename Corbin's home planet to Arcturus III and make not a single other change, I don't think anyone would ever have the idea that it might not be a space opera.


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## Thomas Shey (Jul 13, 2022)

Yora said:


> Is that different from the Space Opera RPG we talked about earlier?




No, its the one we were talking about.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 13, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> If one don't like sci-fi, read Peter F Hamiltons Night's Dawn trilogy, and still claim that Space Opera mean particularly bad sci-fi, then one are objectively wrong and have failed at reading fiction ;-)



The whole point is the term is usually used by people who wouldn't read a Sci Fi trilogy if you threatened them with thumbscrews.

Which is most people outside the geek bubble.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 13, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Would you consider "The Fifth Element" to be space opera?



If you attach significance to authorial intent, then yes, it's the exception to the rule than no one deliberately sets out to write a space opera. The image you referenced early in this thread is Besson making an intentional metajoke to that effect.


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## GreyLord (Jul 13, 2022)

Late to the conversation.  I view Space Opera as Space Fantasy.

It is given under the guise of Science Fiction, but while Science Fiction includes how science would work...Space Opera basically tosses the laws of physics to the side at times and ignores that science even exists.  It's basically a Fantasy in Outer Space.


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## Yora (Jul 13, 2022)

I am in full agreement with this. Star Trek did a quite good of convincing me otherwise for many years. But the more I learn about physics and engineering, the clearer it becomes that all the technobabble is completely meaningless. It just sounds sciencey. The clean and disciplined look of TNG also makes it appear like the show regards itself as very serious futurism and doesn't revel in the joy of adventure, but that doesn't make it any less fantastical.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 13, 2022)

We have mentioned_ Babylon 5_. That is a good example of something that fits the description of space opera to a tee. But the author did not start with the idea of writing a space opera. JMS started out with the idea "Lord of the Rings, in space". Which, of course, connects it back to the fantasy genre.

A similar example would _Revenger_, by Alistar Reynolds, which is a good fit for space opera, but its core idea is "Pirates of the Caribbean, in space".


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Jul 13, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The whole point is the term is usually used by people who wouldn't read a Sci Fi trilogy if you threatened them with thumbscrews.
> 
> Which is most people outside the geek bubble.



My post was meant as tongue in cheek. Hand on heart, I couldn't care less about what people who don't like science fiction think about science fiction and it's subgenres. Well, almost  

Sci-fi has been looked down upon during most of it's existence as a defined genre, even though it's more and more accepted at academies etc. And that's ok for me. I think that people who don't read sci-fi out of snobbery are lacking imagination and curiousity, and they think that I'm a tasteless geek. That's ok too. It's even more ok that my library includes a good part of the literary canon and Nobel prize winners, so I can smack them on the head if they deserve it ;-)


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 13, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> My post was meant as tongue in cheek. Hand on heart, I couldn't care less about what people who don't like science fiction think about science fiction and it's subgenres. Well, almost
> 
> Sci-fi has been looked down upon during most of it's existence as a defined genre, even though it's more and more accepted at academies etc. And that's ok for me. I think that people who don't read sci-fi out of snobbery are lacking imagination and curiousity, and they think that I'm a tasteless geek. That's ok too. It's even more ok that my library includes a good part of the literary canon and Nobel prize winners, so I can smack them on the head if they deserve it ;-)



The reason gernes where invented where so people could decide whether or not they like a book without having to go to the bother of actually reading it.


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Jul 13, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The reason gernes where invented where so people could decide whether or not they like a book without having to go to the bother of actually reading it.



I obviously don't agree, but I hope you are being ironic. Many of my best reading experiences comes from books I seriously doubted I would like. I actually pity folks that don't read a book just because of it's advertised genre.


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## payn (Jul 13, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> We have mentioned_ Babylon 5_. That is a good example of something that fits the description of space opera to a tee. But the author did not start with the idea of writing a space opera. JMS started out with the idea "Lord of the Rings, in space". Which, of course, connects it back to the fantasy genre.
> 
> A similar example would _Revenger_, by Alistar Reynolds, which is a good fit for space opera, but its core idea is "Pirates of the Caribbean, in space".



See, I hear Pirates of the Caribbean and Lord of the Rings and think instantly of space opera; just add space.


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## payn (Jul 13, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> I obviously don't agree, but I hope you are being ironic. Many of my best reading experiences comes from books I seriously doubted I would like. I actually pity folks that don't read a book just because of it's advertised genre.



Well, pity me then because I do not like the fantasy genre. Dont get me wrong, my motto is "dont knock it until you rock it", but as far as literature goes, fantasy is almost always a disappointment to me. I let Game of Thrones, probably the best fantasy I have read, sit on the shelf for 10 years because I dont like the genre that much. 

Folks just have convention tastes as well. It can be a very well written story, but if folks dont like westerns, horror, fantasy, space opera, etc..., they wont dig it anyways.


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## Umbran (Jul 13, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I would have thought it was very naive that someone could look at the effect of the internet on the current news agenda and think that individual voices don't add up.




The "current news agenda" sounds a lot like politics, to me.

But, really, this seems to ignore scale.  The "current news agenda" is a thing for the mass market.  There's not a mass market movement of thousands and tens of thousands of people discussing sci-fi literature prior to the 1960s on the internet.  So, no, I do not have the hubris to feel my voice on the topic matters one single whit.


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## Cadence (Jul 13, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I'll give you another example then, to try and explain my statements. Would you consider "The Fifth Element" to be space opera? It tends to fit the definitions used by many, if not most people. Think about the story. The "Chosen One" is here to save the universe. Spoiler: The universe is ultimately saved by love. The presentation is excellent. Probably one of my 5 favourite movies of all time. The story, however, is as old as time. I think that qualifies as "trite and formulaic" but, as I stated previously, that doesn't mean "bad."




Does it get bonus points for literally having it too?


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## Umbran (Jul 13, 2022)

payn said:


> See, I hear Pirates of the Caribbean and Lord of the Rings and think instantly of space opera; just add space.




Pirates of the Caribbean, yes - if you change sailing ships to space ships, you'd probably have space opera.

Lord of the Rings, maybe not.  The epic scale fits, but the pacing and understated action and characters probably keep it from hitting enough other tropes.


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## Ryujin (Jul 13, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Does it get bonus points for literally having it too?



Page 1 of the thread


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## payn (Jul 13, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Lord of the Rings, maybe not.  The epic scale fits, but the pacing and understated action and characters probably keep it from hitting enough other tropes.



IDK, many characters rise to occasion and achieve larger than life moments in a race to save all the goodness in the world. Seems the right batch of items to fit thematically to me. I think folks tend to have an overinflated opinion of how good LORT is, while also having an allergic reaction to anything they like being called soap.


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## Cadence (Jul 13, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Page 1 of the thread




Skimmed five or six pages and failed to check the most important one!


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## Umbran (Jul 13, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The whole point is the term is usually used by people who wouldn't read a Sci Fi trilogy if you threatened them with thumbscrews.




I don't think folks who don't read sci fi trilogies on threat of torture are apt to use any specific terms to qualify one type of sci-fi as different from another.


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## Yora (Jul 13, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> Sci-fi has been looked down upon during most of it's existence as a defined genre, even though it's more and more accepted at academies etc. And that's ok for me. I think that people who don't read sci-fi out of snobbery are lacking imagination and curiousity, and they think that I'm a tasteless geek. That's ok too. It's even more ok that my library includes a good part of the literary canon and Nobel prize winners, so I can smack them on the head if they deserve it ;-)


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 13, 2022)

Umbran said:


> The "current news agenda" sounds a lot like politics, to me.
> 
> But, really, this seems to ignore scale.  The "current news agenda" is a thing for the mass market.  There's not a mass market movement of thousands and tens of thousands of people discussing sci-fi literature prior to the 1960s on the internet.  So, no, I do not have the hubris to feel my voice on the topic matters one single whit.



I'm not talking about "sci fi" literature, I'm talking about literature in general, and as someone who works in education, and whose partner is a literature specialist, yes, it is political, and every voice does count.

Yes, we are campaigning to keep literature, and especially pre-1960s* literature, on the national curriculum, because the first thing the people who want to stop independent thinking do is burn all the books.


*1960s is the cut off point for "modern" in NC jargon.


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## Umbran (Jul 13, 2022)

payn said:


> IDK, many characters rise to occasion and achieve larger than life moments in a race to save all the goodness in the world.




I already said I felt the scale was appropriate.  I think the characters and action are _understated_, and the pacing far too slow for space opera.  LotRs aims for gravitas, rather than pulpiness, which makes it a poor fit for Space Opera.


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## Umbran (Jul 13, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> I think that people who don't read sci-fi out of snobbery are lacking imagination and curiousity...




Folks, let us not turn this discussion to insulting people, even if they are not present.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 13, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Lord of the Rings, maybe not.  The epic scale fits, but the pacing and understated action and characters probably keep it from hitting enough other tropes.



JMS was open about Babylon 5 being inspired by Lord of the Rings, and I don't think many would say Babylon 5 was not space opera.

The simple transition of medium from book to TV or movie deals with pacing and understated action. I don't think you can accuse the Jackson LotR movies as having understated action.


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## payn (Jul 13, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I already said I felt the scale was appropriate.  I think the characters and action are _understated_, and the pacing far too slow for space opera.  LotRs aims for gravitas, rather than pulpiness, which makes it a poor fit for Space Opera.



That's a thin hair of difference for me. Which is why these genre conversations can be difficult, but also interesting to have. I dont care if you or I are right, I just enjoy discussing it.


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Jul 13, 2022)

payn said:


> Well, pity me then because I do not like the fantasy genre. Dont get me wrong, my motto is "dont knock it until you rock it", but as far as literature goes, fantasy is almost always a disappointment to me. I let Game of Thrones, probably the best fantasy I have read, sit on the shelf for 10 years because I dont like the genre that much.
> 
> Folks just have convention tastes as well. It can be a very well written story, but if folks dont like westerns, horror, fantasy, space opera, etc..., they wont dig it anyways.



Yeah, sorry if that came off a bit harsh. I was more referring to literary snobs who wouldn't lower themselves to read genre fiction etc.

And yes, I'm not a big fantasy guy myself. Kind of odd that I enjoy fantasy roleplaying, but as fiction to read it usually bores the socks of me. With exceptions of course, don't anyone dare to say a bad word about the sweet Felix & Gotrek cheese 8-P


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Jul 13, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> My post was meant as tongue in cheek. Hand on heart, I couldn't care less about what people who don't like science fiction think about science fiction and it's subgenres. Well, almost
> 
> Sci-fi has been looked down upon during most of it's existence as a defined genre, even though it's more and more accepted at academies etc. And that's ok for me. I think that people who don't read sci-fi out of snobbery are lacking imagination and curiousity, and they think that I'm a tasteless geek. That's ok too. It's even more ok that my library includes a good part of the literary canon and Nobel prize winners, so I can smack them on the head if they deserve it ;-)



Sorry if this post came out bad, didn't mean to insult anyone. It's just something I've experienced a lot and is very, very tired of. But I try to formulate myself better


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## payn (Jul 13, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> Yeah, sorry if that came off a bit harsh. I was more referring to literary snobs who wouldn't lower themselves to read genre fiction etc.
> 
> And yes, I'm not a big fantasy guy myself. Kind of odd that I enjoy fantasy roleplaying, but as fiction to read it usually bores the socks of me. With exceptions of course, don't anyone dare to say a bad word about the sweet Felix & Gotrek cheese 8-P



It's all good. People have their quirks. A friend of mine is the "have to find it myself" type. He wont read books that more than 1 person recommends to him. "Too popular to be good" he says. I dont even know what that means?


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## Yora (Jul 13, 2022)

I like space opera because I'm a big fantasy fan and find most science fiction rather dull.


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## Thomas Shey (Jul 13, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The whole point is the term is usually used by people who wouldn't read a Sci Fi trilogy if you threatened them with thumbscrews.




That probably was once true, but has not been true for some time now; its become a term-of-art within the SF community long since.


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## Ixal (Jul 13, 2022)

This thread reminds me of the old Wing Commander games where the intro literally started with a opera orchestra getting ready to play.


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## Ryujin (Jul 13, 2022)

Ixal said:


> This thread reminds me of the old Wing Commander games where the intro literally started with a opera orchestra getting ready to play.



Just.... let's not bring up the movie, OK?


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## payn (Jul 13, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Just.... let's not bring up the movie, OK?



Too late!


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## Ixal (Jul 13, 2022)




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## Ryujin (Jul 13, 2022)

payn said:


> Too late!



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


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## payn (Jul 13, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!



I forgotten about that movie. Im only ever reminded of it here at EN world.


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## dragoner (Jul 13, 2022)

I totally have horked space pilgrims from there. 

To me, I like both space opera and hard sf, both are cool in their own way, same as liking Star Wars and Star Trek at the same time.


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## bloodtide (Jul 14, 2022)

Yora said:


> I'm a functionalist. A words means what the majority of people using it think it means. If you think space opera means bad sci-fi, then what do you think you have to contribute to the discussion at hand?




It's all relative.  

There are a group of people, the "cool kids", that get to label everything....and then the rest of the country just accepts it and uses the label.   See for example: History.

So set the Wayback Machine for many years ago:  The soap companies make some short drama shows "targeted at housewives"  around their commercials for soap products.   The shows are bizarre to the extreme, with things like long lost twins, people randomly getting amnesia, people getting trapped in "other" countries, dead characters "somehow suddenly" coming back to life and more.  

And someone who did not like such stuff at all, slapped the label "soap opera" on them as an insult.  

A couple years later, another someone who likely hated sci-fi (it was very popular to hate sci fi wayback when) slapped the label on the sci fi they really did not like as "space opera".  


But that is just them.....the people sitting far away, judging things and slapping labels on things they don't like.   

But if your a fan of either or both, then it does not matter what they say: you like it, you are a fan.  If you are a fan it's "good enough"  and you might even like all the stuff.  

It never matters what "they" say.....


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 14, 2022)

payn said:


> Well, pity me then because I do not like the fantasy genre. Dont get me wrong, my motto is "dont knock it until you rock it", but as far as literature goes, fantasy is almost always a disappointment to me.



Here is a thought experiment for everyone. Think of a genre you really don't like. Then list all the novels in that genre you have read. I'll allow fractions over 10%.

Can also do it for movies and TV shows.


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## payn (Jul 14, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> And someone who did not like such stuff at all, slapped the label "soap opera" on them as an insult.
> 
> A couple years later, another someone who likely hated sci-fi (it was very popular to hate sci fi wayback when) slapped the label on the sci fi they really did not like as "space opera".



Soaps were often melodramatic entertainment, which critics indeed panned regularly. Items created for popular culture are often overexaggerated for impact and thinly constructed for easy consumption.

Now, I think its easy to say folks used to hate sci-fi, which is why they put it on the soap level. Though, if you look at a lot of the sci-fi television/film made decades ago it was pretty melodramatic entertainment (along with some pretty cheesy effects). The initial appeal of Sci-fi is the whizbangs, but over time authors started to bring in more elements of convention literature and bring up the quality of the writing in general. Literature is usually ahead of film and television naturally.

Space Opera might have Soap origins, but I dont think most folks expect or see the reference any longer. While soaps continue to be melodramatic entertainment, Space opera has evolved along with the literature. Which is why I think most fans dont make a stink of the name or its origin.



Paul Farquhar said:


> Here is a thought experiment for everyone. Think of a genre you really don't like. Then list all the novels in that genre you have read. I'll allow fractions over 10%.
> 
> Can also do it for movies and TV shows.



That would be a great topic for a new thread. I don't want to muddy this one.


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## Yora (Jul 14, 2022)

Is anyone aware of any resources about creating space opera works?

There's loads and loads of stuff to burry you with suggestions about fantasy worlds, like thinking about the roles and implications of magic, the different impacts of social and political institutions, the meaning of monsters, and so on and on.
Things seem to look completely different in the field of science fiction. "Consider the implications of technology" and "set clear rules for faster than light" appears to be the typical extend of suggestions people are able to make.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 14, 2022)

payn said:


> The initial appeal of Sci-fi is the whizbangs, but over time authors started to bring in more elements of convention literature and bring up the quality of the writing in general. Literature is usually ahead of film and television naturally.



Hard science fiction came first, with Verne and Wells. The whizbangs came later, when comics and moving pictures made them work.


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## Ryujin (Jul 14, 2022)

Yora said:


> Is anyone aware of any resources about creating space opera works?
> 
> There's loads and loads of stuff to burry you with suggestions about fantasy worlds, like thinking about the roles and implications of magic, the different impacts of social and political institutions, the meaning of monsters, and so on and on.
> Things seem to look completely different in the field of science fiction. "Consider the implications of technology" and "set clear rules for faster than light" appears to be the typical extend of suggestions people are able to make.











						Write a Space Opera / So You Want To - TV Tropes
					

The universe is in danger. There is a quest to save the world, and a hero to undertake it. They meet aliens and exotic creatures, they travel from planet to planet, and fight armies of insurmountable odds to great personal cost, all to beat a …




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