# Craven feat: overpowered?



## Egres

This is the first time I ask for feedback about a feat, but I'm sincerely astonished by the uberness of this one.

For those of you who don't own Champions of Ruin, the Craven feat grants an additional 1 point of damage per character level with each successfull sneak attack dealt.

It also has a negative effect: a -2 penalty to ST against fear effects.....Wow.

That's a great balancing factor.

BTW, let me know what do you think about it.

Thanks in advance.


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## VirgilCaine

Egres said:
			
		

> It also has a negative effect: a -2 penalty to ST against fear effects.....Wow.




What the heck were the designers thinking? What does strength have to do with a fear effect?


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## Egres

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> What the heck were the designers thinking? What does strength have to do with a fear effect?



Heh.

This is the flavor text:


_Like most sly rogues, you are a dangerous coward. However, your sneak attacks deal more damage than normal._


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## Plane Sailing

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> What the heck were the designers thinking? What does strength have to do with a fear effect?




ST = Saving Throw
Str = Strength

Is this what the confusion was?


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## VirgilCaine

Egres said:
			
		

> Heh.
> 
> This is the flavor text:
> 
> _Like most sly rogues, you are a dangerous coward. However, your sneak attacks deal more damage than normal._




No, I mean mechanically...oh wait, yeah, IIRC there are Strength penalties or something for fear effects. Whoopee.



> ST = Saving Throw
> Str = Strength
> 
> Is this what the confusion was?




Yes, and that's an even worse "drawback".


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## Savage Wombat

Make it one point of bonus damage per die and it's balanced, I'd say.

It's not too different from a couple of other feats that enhance sneak.


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## KarinsDad

This is not overbalanced. It is completely broken.

Compare it to Power Attack (for a single handed weapon).

-2 Saving Throw vs. Fear to gain +1 damage per character level compared to -1 BAB per +1 damage.

So, the 19th level Rogue doing this is +14 to hit and +9D6 more damage than an equivalent 19th level Fighter doing a full blown Power Attack (assuming everything else the same).

If you give them the same to hit (i.e. use 5 of the Fighter's BAB to give them the same relative to hit not including Str and other factors), the Rogue does 9D6+14 more points of damage.


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## Christian

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> If you give them the same to hit (i.e. use 5 of the Fighter's BAB to give them the same relative to hit not including Str and other factors), the Rogue does 9D6+14 more points of damage.




Yeah, but most of that's from the sneak attack dice themselves ... Breaking that down into average damage, the rogue is doing 45 points more damage per sneak attack hit than the power-attacking fighter, compared to only 31 points more damage per sneak attack hit for a rogue without this feat ... The sneak attack dice are what keep the rogue from being useless in combat compared to a fighter-ordinarily the fighter shines, but in surprise situations or if the rogue can set up a flanking attack (against many types of opponents), the rogue can actually out-whack the fighter. This feat lets him out-whack the fighter by about 50% more in those situations.

It's overpowered, certainly, but not massively. Personally, I think the biggest problem is not the size of the bonus (although +1 point per die is probably more reasonable) but how little you're giving up. Fear attacks don't happen that often, and they're not incredibly dangerous when they do. Really, they're more dangerous for the characters who _make_ their saves and are left in combat without their backup. (Wizard: "Woo-hoo! _That's_ why you want a good Will save, boys!" Fighters & Rogue: "We fail our save and run away." DM: "Let's, see, who's left for my BBEG to whomp in melee?" Wizard: "Um, I cast _Expeditious Retreat_.")

Maybe if the feat added one level to the degree of fear effects on a failed save? Cowering characters are _so_ vulnerable ...


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## Egres

What I really don't understand is that "per character level".

This means that you could take a single level of Rogue, and then go for a straight Fighter, dealing, at 20th level, +20 damage with each sneak attack.

That's ridicuolous.


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## two

Egres said:
			
		

> What I really don't understand is that "per character level".
> 
> This means that you could take a single level of Rogue, and then go for a straight Fighter, dealing, at 20th level, +20 damage with each sneak attack.
> 
> That's ridicuolous.




Ha, good one.


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## Crothian

nice to see them breaking their own feat guidelines: feat are not supposed to gain power with level gain


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## Patryn of Elvenshae

Crothian said:
			
		

> nice to see them breaking their own feat guidelines: feat are not supposed to gain power with level gain




Like Improved Toughness?

Or Power Attack?

Or Combat Expertise?

Or Whirlwind Attack?

Or Manyshot?


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## Crothian

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Whirlwind Attack?




how does WWA improve with level???


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## Shin Okada

This should really be a strong feat for Rogue/somthing multiclass types.

But at 20th-level, I have an impression that sneak attack rarelly take effect. All the PCs and megavillains will be immune to critical hits already.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae

Crothian said:
			
		

> how does WWA improve with level???




Because your BAB increases.

No comments on the others I brought up?


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## Shin Okada

Oh. And that is from FR book right?

Don't expect game balance in FR books. That thing does not exist in Flaness.


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## Thanee

Shin Okada said:
			
		

> That thing does not exist in Flaness.




The whole FR don't exist in the Flaeness. 

But I actually find the FR books to be rather well-balanced mostly (apart from the occasional outlier, but those are the same in the core rules or most other rule books).

Bye
Thanee


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## Crothian

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Because your BAB increases.
> 
> No comments on the others I brought up?




the others go against the rule as well, no arguement there.  But WWA doesn't improve with level.  As you gain levels you can't target more people, you still have the same limitations.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae

Crothian said:
			
		

> As you gain levels you can't target more people, you still have the same limitations.




You do, however, tend to hit them a lot easier.


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## Thanee

Then Weapon Specialization also improves with level. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Shin Okada

Thanee said:
			
		

> Then Weapon Specialization also improves with level.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Oops my mistake. I have not slept for 36 hours.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae

Thanee said:
			
		

> Then Weapon Specialization also improves with level.




True enough! 

Of course, depending on how you look at it, you could construct a pretty decent argument that WWA and Weapon Focus actually degrade with level.

After all, making 6 attacks when you could normally make only 1 is a huge improvement.  Likewise, +2 AB instead of +1 AB is a 100% improvement.  6 attacks vs. 4, and +9 instead of +8?  Not so much.


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## Goolpsy

It isn't that broken, well it is, and its not.
There an old 3.0 feat from the traps and threachery books.. that increase sneak attack dice by one ( from d6  to d8)
thats an average of 1 damage/2 levels.

Its nearly the same, even without the drawback..

Maybe the feat should be altered so that.. its +1 per sneak attack dice.. instead of per level...


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## Darkness

Egres said:
			
		

> What I really don't understand is that "per character level".
> 
> This means that you could take a single level of Rogue, and then go for a straight Fighter, dealing, at 20th level, +20 damage with each sneak attack.
> 
> That's ridicuolous.



 Agreed. Consider this one house-ruled to 'per class level in classes with sneak attack' (or possible even to 'per sneak attack die').


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## Haffrung Helleyes

*rant*

OK, so this feat is only _twice_ as good as it should be.

Does WoTC even have a board to review feats before they publish anymore?  Is any playtesting done?  Or do words go straight from the designers pen to the published book?

It's a little absurd that this got in.  I can't believe I bought this book.  What a waste of money.

Ken


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## BoneMan

I house ruled Craven to allow +1 damage per Rogue Level, not Character Level. 
Any Feats or Class/Prestige class features that stack with Rogue will also stack with Craven.


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