# Undead PC's



## meltinbradley (Nov 16, 2008)

So I've been doing a campaign for about a year now and its been going real well until The dread Necromancer became a lich. I allowed the party to play any character the books had a build for. One chose vampire spawn, one a human druid, one a human spell thief wizard, and a human dread necromancer now lich. Its still real fun but with the combination of vampire and lich and the fact that the lich can use negative energy bursts to heal the vampire, plus all the IMMUNITIES undead get it makes things very hard for me. The levels range from 12 to 15. 
I know of positoxins, clerics (which unfortunately are not very high level in my world, where magic is there but rare, especially powerful magic), mace of disruption, spells(there are probably some spells out there in some books that I dont have that can be nasty)
I sometimes just throw real powerful creatures at them which are WAY to challenging for the druid and spell thief. 
Enemies special abilities and attacks are all but useless to undead, immune to mind affecting spells, fatigue, fear, critical hits, etc...and there are tons of feats that undead can use to help with there weaknesses, raising saves and hp. 
I realize now, that I will probably never want to let my players play undead anymore, but in the meantime anyone have any ideas? I just want to balance it out more and not throw out monsters that have high HP,AC, and do lots of damage to take out undead. I also don't want to change my world in drastics ways like making clerics super powerful because it would not make sense with my world.(What I mean by clerics being to powerful is there are only a handful of clerics out there who are over 10th level, chances are a 10th level cleric would not turn a lich or even a vampire spawn of 15th level) Thanks.


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## R1C0F3TT (Nov 17, 2008)

Dread Necromancers become Lich's at 20th level due tot heir class, so I wouldn't have turned into one so early, just save to money... 
Did the necromancer spend the 120k nessesary to make a philactery? If so, at 13th level area, it will take about all his money, if not, you're handing out to much money to your PC's.
You answered your question about how to slay them. A 16th level cleric with a holy mace of disruption will pretty devastating (your PCs are high level magic users, so why wouldn't there be others. It doesn't make sense that there are 15th level wizard, but only 10th level cleric.) will be devastating to the vampire and lich. The vampire will die indefinitaly, and the lich won't come back for 1d10 days. Where did the lich hide his philactery? Does anyone know about it? Whereever he hid it, there is always a chance that some random will find it, go to a wizard to sell it, the wizard will realise it is a philactery and destroy it.
Is your vampire using his LA? If so his class would be a lot less compared to others.
You could also send a wizard who just uses control undead on them indefinatly.


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## Dragonwriter (Nov 17, 2008)

Considering the Level Adjustment in both Lich and Vampire Spawn, they should be further behind the Druid and the Spellthief. And Dread Necromancer turning Lich early like that seems a waste, for sure.

And if your characters are high level, then there should be NPCs, though uncommon, of that power level. Liches and Vampires draw attention from the holy crusaders. Throw groups of paladins, clerics and Hunters of the Dead at them. And make sure the Clerics at least have scrolls of _Undeath to Death_. That should make them hurt .


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## Runestar (Nov 17, 2008)

The most common solution to that is to first have your dread necro enter necropolitan ASAP. This allows you to dump con right from the start and not suffer its drawbacks (because if you pumped con to aid in survivability at low levels, it becomes counter-productive at lv20 when you become a lich). 

Then at lv19, right before you would level to 20, get yourself killed and raised via true resurrection (which reverts you back to a human, ensuring that you become a legal target for true necro20).

But not too much with challenging undead PCs, I am afraid.


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## akbearfoot (Nov 17, 2008)

how can you say magic is rare in you world?  You have a druid, a wizard/spellthief who managed to survive to 15th level, and a dread necromancer....creation of undead and becoming a lich is apparently easy to learn and cheap to do.  And you said the PCs could be practically anything.  I do not know the LA of being vampire spawn or lich, but I am sure it is several levels for the lich.  That means the ECL of the group has gone up and warrants tougher challenges.  This will probably suck for the spell-thief  since its a pretty weak class, but the druid will be fine they are already still one of the strongest classes. 

Whats good for the PCs is good for the NPCs....and just as your PCs grow your world should grow too.  If they are making themselves targets then a group of holy do-gooders SHOULD go after them.

A group of 12th or 13th level Do-Gooders should give these guys a run for their money....A Paladin, a Radiant Servant of Pelor, a monk, and a support caster.  Paladin with Divine Might + smite and the weapon crystal that lets him crit undead,  radiant servant may not be able to turn them, but he can CURE the hell out of them and cast Death ward and other various buffs.  Spell caster to fly around and targeted dispel the multitude of buffs that party probably has, summon more allies, and buff/debuff.  Monk can grapple the lich and has excellent saves and mobility, or he can tie up the druid to keep him from using all the druidy stuff.  The spell-thief may actually shine in an encounter like this as there are lots of spells flying around.


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## R1C0F3TT (Nov 17, 2008)

What is the druid's alignment?
I would think an avarage druid would be stongly against teaming up with a lich or vampire. He would probably find them much to unnatural.
Also, spell theaves don't tend to be the most loyal people, so your group of holy crusaders could offer the druid and spell theif their life if they don't interfere with the exicutation of the undeads.


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## meltinbradley (Nov 17, 2008)

*thanks*

Thanks everyone for your replies.

R1CO-The dread necromancer did spend the 120K to perform all the needed steps into lichdom. It did take all his money. I am very skimpy when it comes to giving out magical items and money. The only reason he was able to make that change was because they were looking for a artifact which they ended up finding because its crucial to the campaign and he sold it to a 3rd party for money. (This was very unexpected, but it is a evil campaign.) The value of the artifact was priceless so a price for a mere 120k was acceptable by the 3rd party interested in the artifact.
The  philactery is a childs doll. It was given to some random child in a random city to hold(without her knowledge). Later the child was murdered by the brother of the lich and now holds it and has some insurance against the lich now. (This is not known to the lich in game) I dont know the LA of the vampire spawn off hand at the moment I will have to get back to you.
The druids alignment is neutral evil. And yes, under most circumstances he would find them revolting. The campaign is based on a greater evil threantening the world so all good and evil alike have somewhat joined forces to stop this evil. The PC's all have their own agenda. The lich doesnt want this "evil" to win because the lich wants to eventually rule for herself and not have to serve this new evil. The vampire wishes to redeem himself, the druid wishes to keep the environment as it is and doesnt want this unnatural and foriegn force in this world, and the spell thief could give a rats a$$ and is only out for money and power.
Sorry for being unclear. Let me clarify, in my world going to any town or city, village, any populated place you will find no mage or cleric of higher then 10th level, with some exceptions. There are, however some who do not want to be found of higher level or those living in remote places.
Because the PC's are working with the good guys there aren't to many paladins, and good clerics who are out for them. But on several occasions the PC's have killed key NPC's VERY carefully which consisted of clerics and paladins (mainly by the lich because she is chaotic evil) One thing that worked well was a vampire lord serving this evil  had dominated some powerful good aligned clerics who destroyed the lich but as you know returned soon after.
Dragon writer- There are NPC'S of equal and greater level then them, for sure, they actually just got they a$$es kicked by a Death Knight and his legion. Which was nice to see, since they were doing so well up until now.
Runestar- Can you explain more about Necropolitan, I am not sure what that is. Is it a place where undead reside? I do like the true ressurection though. That would piss him off...
Akbear-I explained a little about levels above. Yes, there are powerful forces out there but you will not find a magic shop in any of my towns, you will not be able to get ressurected in them as well if you die. That is just not common place. I consider the PC's the main focus of any game, so I like to let the PC's be what they want and give them chances in achieving what it is they want. You are right though, lately the Druid has been crucial in just about every situation. They have made MANY enemies, and everyone is growing, but because the PC's are not a big factor at the moment nothing serious has happened, but once this campaign ends, im sure all the murder and mayhem they have done will come back to bite them, I like the weapon crystal with crits to undead idea.
Again, thanks everyone for your help. One more question: Isn't there a spell that temporarily removes the undead traits? MB


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## Runestar (Nov 17, 2008)

Necropolitan is a template from libris mortis. Basically gives you the undead traits, for LA+0 (though you do lose a level). Essentially a poor man's lich.

Resurrection works only if you are willing. So it is not something an enemy cleric can perform on your dread necro.

It is odd. All the undead races your party is using normally have very steep and debilitating LAs. IIRC, vampire spawn is LA+4 (for ECL8 when combined with its 4 undead HD). Vampire is +8LA, lich is +4, and these mean that you are missing that many class lvs. Your undead powers should be more than offset by the fact that you are all lacking in class features, and HD (meaning poorer bab/saves/hp/spellcasting).


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## Shin Okada (Nov 17, 2008)

Well, while undead PCs have many immunities, they still have relatively low HPs for their ECL. Because they have LA and no Con mod. For example, average total HPs of a 11th-level lich PC (ECL 15) is only 12 + 6.5 x 10 = 77. But average total HPs of a 15th-level living Dread Necromancer with Con 14 is 8 + 5.5 x14 = 85. And living arcane casters of this level usually have at least +4 to +6 Con item. So, his total HP is likely to be 115-130 in average. And of course, lich suffer much from being 4 levels behind characters of LA +0 race.

And living PCs can have nearly as many immunities by choosing some LA +0 race (warforged), classes (Paladin, Dragon Disciple, Elemental Savant, etc.) and casting breakfast spells (Heroes Feast). So, game-balance wise, I don't think them to be too strong.


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## meltinbradley (Nov 18, 2008)

*hmm...*

Yeah, it was cool when they had low hp. With the fact that the vampire gets increase in strength and raises BAB he has a  decent BAB. There is also a feat called unholy toughness which the vampire has now and his HP went WAY up because instead of using con for HP increase you use your CHA modifier and him being a vampire he has a high CHA. He also has a feat I forget the name but it allows you to make a saving throw when you go to zero or less HP. The save is based on how much damage you suffer below zero. If you make the save you awaken with half your HP, if you fail you go gaseous. If it happens again, then you may do it a second time, but if you fail the save that time you are permanently destroyed. 
The lich is about to advance next game, and guess what feat he is going to take? Thats right Unholy toughness and I will be dealing with a 200+ HP lich.
The good news is I think Im going to kill him off permanently real soon. Have him make a new character.


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## Runestar (Nov 18, 2008)

Unholy toughness is a monster ability, not a feat. Only way I know of accessing it is as a dry lich....


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## meltinbradley (Nov 18, 2008)

*hmm*

Acording to my sources it first appeared in in libris mortis as a ability for one of the monsters. Then in monster manuial III it was a monster ability,  its also in a book called "Necromancer's Tome of Horror." Finally its in a book called Mega Feats II......


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## Dagredhel (Nov 18, 2008)

http://paizo.com/dungeon/messageboards/ageOfWorms/unholyToughness


KnightErrantJR (Pathfinder Superscriber), Fri, May 23, 2008, 08:56 PM   

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I can't remember the name of it now, but in one of Necromancer's Tome of Horror books (either II or III), there was a feat that granted the same benefit to undead as Unholy Toughness.


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## Shin Okada (Nov 18, 2008)

meltinbradley said:


> "Necromancer's Tome of Horror." Finally its in a book called Mega Feats II......




Those are 3rd party books right? You should be very careful allowing your players to use such books.


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## irdeggman (Nov 18, 2008)

It justs seems wrong theme-wise/mechanically for there to be essentially no clerics above 10th level and yet have such high level undead about.

The forces of balance would have somehow had high level slayers of undead rise in some form to foil them (doesn't matter if they are PCs or NPCs). Most likely as higher level clerics.


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## Runestar (Nov 18, 2008)

Maybe it is because the powerful undead started hunting the high lv clerics, resulting in a dearth of competent undead slayers to oppose them...


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## Shin Okada (Nov 18, 2008)

Are there no outsiders and spell-casting creatures too?

Even if there are no strong mortal spellcasters, those creatures could be menace against those undead PCs. Many celestials can cast cleric spells or have anti-evil-creature abilities. Good dragons can be interesting foes against such evil party as they can cast divination spells for finding phylactery or coffin. And Inevitables can be really formidable opponents as they are immune to many of the magical attacks and abilities of undead PCs. And there are evil monsters who have powers to enslave undead creatures, like Ak'Chazar Rakshasa.

DnD system is assuming that PCs will meet various opponents with various abilities. If you remove spells and similar abilities from their opponents, PCs can easily fight one-side games. Even if you don't like to include high-level spellcasters in your campaign world for background reason, you would better include some alternative foes, or combats may become too easy.


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## Stormborn (Nov 18, 2008)

Just remember that there will always be those who will not compromise with evil for any reason, no matter how "lesser" they seem.  Create a band of fanatics of some Lawful Good God of Light.  They are not swayed by the acceptance of these evil beings have have broken from their temple/tradition because they consider it "corrupt and in violation of the True Law."  Clerics, Paladins, and LG Rangers all determined to wipe undead from the face of the world.  Perhaps they even believe if they succeed, or even try really hard, their god will manifest and save them all from the Big Evil the party is facing.  This would be a perfect challenging counter to your evil party, and they would show up again and again with weapons, spells, feats, and class abilities all centered around fighting undead.

On the other hand, if you are worried about their immunities throw things at them that are just as tough.  A sentient iron golem (the housing for some angelic general trapped within?) with a sorcerer companion who does nothing but cast fire spells centerd on the golem, or some similar on going fire effects would be tough to beat. Like Shin said, there are all kinds of powerful foes that might be aligned with good or evil to oppose the party.


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## roguerouge (Nov 18, 2008)

Why won't direct sunlight work here? Army of good guys find out where Dracula is holed up, tear down the building to let the sunlight in. That would be an awesome combat, as the vampire spawn fights the attackers and most of the attackers are fighting the building. And it's an evil campaign, so I'm guessing that the characters need "alone time" fairly frequently. Keep the other players involved either by having them play the role of the attacking force or target them all when they're separated. The wizard and thief's guilds team up on the spell thief and the good druids team up on the evil druid. They ignore the lich, or race him to his phylactery. 

I'm thinking four separate, simultaneous combats progressing round by round for a truly epic night at the game table. Just keep saying "Meanwhile..."


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## irdeggman (Nov 18, 2008)

Daylight spell - 3rd level Brd, Clr, Drd, Pal, Wiz/Sor.

Works wonders against a vampire (liches have no specific weakness to daylight though).

Should be common enough to get (only requires a 5th or 6th level character to cast)


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## meltinbradley (Nov 19, 2008)

*hey*

Shin Okada- Yes, they are. I am beginning to agree with you. I am a 2nd edition gamer at heart. I just love to DM, everyone was into 3.5 so im still learning the rules. I think its important to give the PC's what they want, or ATLEAST a chance to get something they want. I feel holding to many restrictions takes away from the game, and usually I can figure out ways of making it work out for myself. Just lately they have been killing things ive been throwing at them with ease. But ive been doing research and have been reading your posts and have been getting ideas.
Irdeggman- Well, the world was created before I met any of these gamers. There isnt much undead in my world. There are no more then 10 vampires in the whole world and one of them is a PC. There are no more then 3 liches in my world and all are unknown except for the PC lich who is out there in the spot light causing mayhem. 
The reason why the levels are so low is because all the gods are young, the old gods died or left, so things started over.
But like i say, what you do now will decide what happens letter. 
Now people know about liches and vampires in the world, so there are and will be NPCs who will begin to study and learn about theres creatures weaknesses, I will have to raise the standard for mages and clerics.
There are outsiders and spell casting creatures, but its not common knowledge, most creatures like that are considered legend. For example, good dragons remain shapechanged as humanoids not letting others know of their true nature. 
I have recently created some NPC celestials who are going to appear on the world and do some serious damage. The PC's reckless behavior has not gone unnoticed.
Stormborn- I really liked your ideas!
Rogue- You are right. But the fact that the lich has a negative energy burst helps bring the vampire up to full hit points really quick. Once I get rid of the lich the vampire wont be as powerful. But them two together makes them a deadly combination.


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## akbearfoot (Nov 19, 2008)

seems off to me also so hear there are no NPCs above 10th level, yet there is some humongous evil conquering the world....just seems sort of stagnant to say that there is noone else around who is actively seeking ways to thwart it.

I mean I can respect wanting to control/limit access to magic items and spells, but when you give the PCs free access to basically anything they want then it throws game balance and perspective completely out of whack.


In my mind there is not a paladin or cleric of a non-evil diety in the 'world' that would or could tolerate the presence of a lich...period....a vampire maybe...but the paladin or cleric goes 'detect evil' and gets hit by an aura of overwhelming evil.

Also its actually kind of cute, but entirely unreasonable to me that a lich would get doll as a phylactery.  Even more unreasonable that he would give it to a child and not keep constant tabs on it....I mean everyone knows Barack obama stole the Hope diamond to make it his Phylactery, but still....lol

And 10th level cleric with the Sun domain with an amulet of undead turning and a couple feats and spells, can turn undead of around 20HD probably even more, and automatically destroy them.

A Hunter of the Dead would require a few more levels than you say your NPCs are allowed to have,  but their main special ability is when they kill an undead it is destroyed permanently...even liches.


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## Starbuck_II (Nov 19, 2008)

akbearfoot said:


> I mean everyone knows Barack obama stole the Hope diamond to make it his Phylactery, but still....lol



 What no he didn't it was his label pin: didn't you notice he stopped wearing it?

It wasn't about patriotism but survival.


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## Stormborn (Nov 19, 2008)

meltinbradley said:


> Irdeggman- Well, the world was created before I met any of these gamers. There isnt much undead in my world. There are no more then 10 vampires in the whole world and one of them is a PC. There are no more then 3 liches in my world and all are unknown except for the PC lich who is out there in the spot light causing mayhem.
> ...
> Now people know about liches and vampires in the world, so there are and will be NPCs who will begin to study and learn about theres creatures weaknesses, I will have to raise the standard for mages and clerics.
> ...
> Stormborn- I really liked your ideas!





Glad you did.  But your comment above made me think of something else.

Only a few liches and vampires and now the PCs have gone and made them well known?  If I was a lich I would NOT be happy about that.  I would go out and find this guy that has made my life difficult, get rid of him, and go back into living my quiet life for a few decades until everyone had forgotten about me.  

Vampires and liches should be pretty determined to get rid of these guys, and who would better know how to overcome their weaknesses?  Especially some really old vampires.  I wouldn't want to go all White Wolf, but I can easilly see some trully ancient vampire lord, one with magic items to overcome the traditional weaknesses showing up and saying "You have broken the Covenant of the Ancients, you must pay the price.  What?  You didn't know about the Covenant?  Too bad."


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## Bladesong (Nov 20, 2008)

DId anyone suggest the obvious, easy ways to wear them down like positive energy traps, magic items of healing, rangers with undead slaying weapons and negative energy resistance (even a couple of 10th level rangers outfitted like this would be formidable for a couple of undead). Of course they cannot fast heal/regenerate from acid or fire. Melf's acid arrow does not allow a save. 
There are a lot of ways to challenge them...even ways that won't hurt the two non-undead.


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## meltinbradley (Nov 21, 2008)

*hmm*

AKbearfoot- There are no known spell casters divine and arcane above tenth level. There are secret societies, hermits, and others who are well above 10th level. There are also many fighters, thieves, barbarians, rangers, etc...above 10th level anywhere. There is a very powerful group who is determined to stop the evil. It all would really make sense if I broke it down, but its to much info.
As for the lich and his doll...Well, you would have to take that up with the PC, that was his wish. But regardless the girl was murdered and a NPC has the doll now. So the lich I have under control when I need him to be. He's actually probably going to be destroyed in the next few sessions. We game tonight! "yeah!" 
Hunter of the dead? what book is that in? I want to check that out...Libris Mortis?
Stormborn- I have thought of that, again, very nice. And it will happen, but now is not the time. But the few liches and vampires that do exist prefer to remain nonexistent, and this is attracting a lot of attention.
Bladesong- I have just started on that path. Thanks again fellahs.


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## Dragonwriter (Nov 21, 2008)

meltinbradley said:


> Hunter of the dead? what book is that in? I want to check that out...Libris Mortis?




No, Hunter of the Dead is Complete Warrior.

Libris Mortis does have a couple other anti-undead PrCs, though... Namely the Master of Radiance (uber-sunbeams and such...) and the Sacred Purifier (bonuses to turning. Greater Turnings, positive energy bursts). Radiance is more Druid-y and Purifier is Cleric or Paladin only due to the requirement of "Turn Undead' for the class.

And there are some things in Libris Mortis that would give you other anti-undead resources. Just be very careful about letting your already out-of-control undead players get ahold of it...


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## akbearfoot (Nov 21, 2008)

It is through DM fiat and only through DM fiat that there are no high level spell casters...if you simply do not want there to be high level spell casters in the world then that is ok.  But realize that it means the PCs can litteraly rule the planet if they want to in a couple more levels because fighters and barbarians can't touch high levle spell casters in power.  If the PCs can adventure and gain experience then so can NPCs...And its entirely possible for the 10th level guys to go from 10th to 14th level in a short period of time.  Look how fast PCs level up when they delve into dungeons.  The only thing keeping the game world from growing and evolving as the PCs do is the DM.

If there are only 3 liches in the whole world...where did your PC gain the knowlege to know how to transform himself?  It doesen't sound like something a simple knowlege check would cover.  You'r talking about something that only a few other creatures in the history of your game world have acomplished, and they most likely didn't put their pictures on the front page of the daily bugle when they accomplished it.  Seems like you handed it over to the PC willy nilly like he went down to K-mart and bough the Lich-juice on blue light special.

Not to mention the imbalance it creates in party level...If they were 12th level when this happened then the vampire spawn guy can't gain any levels until he goes EPIC. And the druid and spellthief are now many levels behind them in power level....Which isnt too bad for a druid really since they rock so hardcore, but the poor spellthief should be shaking in his boots.  Anything you throw at them that could possibly challenge the undead guys would completely wipe the floor with a spellthief.


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## meltinbradley (Nov 22, 2008)

*well*

Akbearfoot- Again, there are high level spell casters, but youre not going to find them in any common city.
But there is some truth in what you say, I feel I did make some mistakes, but there is also so much more that I do not want to bore you with about  my world.
The lich learned because he was originally a Tiefling from the outerplanes and learned of that knowledge from beings not of that world.
And you are totally right about the imbalance between the PC's. If anything, that is what I dont like the most. But then again, those PC's were offered any class or race with a level box.
Dragon writer- Thanks, I have that book, ill look into it.


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## Drowbane (Nov 22, 2008)

irdeggman said:


> Daylight spell - 3rd level Brd, Clr, Drd, Pal, Wiz/Sor.
> 
> Works wonders against a vampire (liches have no specific weakness to daylight though).
> 
> Should be common enough to get (only requires a 5th or 6th level character to cast)




Just what is it that you think the Daylight spell does to a vampire?


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## irdeggman (Nov 22, 2008)

Drowbane said:


> Just what is it that you think the Daylight spell does to a vampire?




The same thing that daylight does (minus the destruction part spell says it won't destroy them but the other parts still apply).




> Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape.


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## Marred_Bard (Nov 22, 2008)

I'm not sure if the issue of class-level imbalance has been entirely addressed, but the two undead should be significantly behind in terms of 'class' power, which should open up weaknesses in the group. Nevertheless, the anti-undead suggestions all work if you want to make it plain to the PCs that their characters are becoming unbalanced, but I liked Stormborn's response: in-world, these undead beings should feel pressured, even if they are among the most powerful in the realm.

Other resistance groups should be 'reluctant' (some of them outwardly hostile) to horrors out of childhood nightmares taking a stance against the dark invading powers, even to the point of self-destruction. The other undead lords should be upset at the 'press' they're getting, and the dark forces should certainly make efforts to stop them. 

I guess my point is that even minor tactical challenges can seem more daunting if the world feels less forgiving of mistakes. The vampire may be able to be healed nearly instantaneously, but has to return to his coffin, and the lich to his phylactery. Should either item become the focus of an enemy, or misunderstanding between allies, these are serious threats to their well-being. They're @15th-level, which makes them powerful, but it only takes a single paladin (even low-level) bent on retribution for crimes real or imagined to begin following their trail, sheltered by a world which won't side with monsters against justice, and the party would be put in a position of peril. Should he find the phylactery, or come upon them during the day, the party would be divided in how to respond, their own evil natures conflicting.


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## Shin Okada (Nov 23, 2008)

irdeggman said:


> The same thing that daylight does (minus the destruction part spell says it won't destroy them but the other parts still apply).




Sunlight and some light source as blight as daylight are different. In case of some creatures such as Drow, they are vulnerable against any blight light. For example, drow's racial traits says,



> Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.




But in case of vampire, it specifically says "direct sunlight". So Daylight spell will cause no particular effects against vampires, like other non-sunlight light sources including sunrod and most other [light] spells.


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## irdeggman (Nov 23, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> But in case of vampire, it specifically says "direct sunlight". So Daylight spell will cause no particular effects against vampires, like other non-sunlight light sources including sunrod and most other [light] spells.






SRD Daylight spell



> The object touched sheds light as bright as full daylight in a 60-foot radius, and dim light for an additional 60 feet beyond that. *Creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them while within the radius of this magical light. Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by bright light.*
> If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light- proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed




It sepcifically says that creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them in daylight spell but that for purposes of damage or destruction it does not work.

I believe that vampires take _penalties_ in bright light "as in full daylight" but do not take damage or destruction.


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## Shin Okada (Nov 23, 2008)

irdeggman said:


> It sepcifically says that creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them in daylight spell but that for purposes of damage or destruction it does not work.
> 
> I believe that vampires take _penalties_ in bright light "as in full daylight" but do not take damage or destruction.





But vampire's descriptive text does not say that they take penalties in bright light. They are just weak against sunlight.


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## Alasgore (Dec 2, 2008)

the Libris Mortis states the effects of spells on sunlight sensitive undead in chapter 2.
I've loaned my copy out but if I remember correctly the daylight spell counts ad daylight as does the sunburst but not the sunbeam (I may be wrong).


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## Shin Okada (Dec 2, 2008)

I checked the Libris Mortis and found that in Chapter 1, P.20. Actually, it clearly states that,



> For instance, despite its name, the _Daylight_ spell doesn't have any special effect against undead, even those vulnerable to sunlight.


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## pawsplay (Dec 3, 2008)

A strict reading would suggest that not only does _daylight_ not disorient vampires, but that a Drow vampire would not be dazzled, either, since the spell does count for the purposes of _creatures_ that are destroyed by daylight.

EDIT: I forget to be helpful. Uh, Radiant Servant of Pelor with one of the feats from LM that lets you shake off negative levels. Wielding a ghost touch bane vs. undead morningstar. 

Also, here's a minor artifact from my campaign: The Crown of Eternal Majesty. It grants a +4 bonus to Cha checks and Cha-based skills versus the undead, allows the wearer to use animate dead once/2 weeks, and casts control undead 1/day with a caster level of 20 and uses the wearer's casting stat, like a staff. 

How about some comedy gold? A dozen or so elven fighter/wizards using wands of disrupt undead.


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## Shin Okada (Dec 3, 2008)

pawsplay said:


> A strict reading would suggest that not only does _daylight_ not disorient vampires, but that a Drow vampire would not be dazzled, either, since the spell does count for the purposes of _creatures_ that are destroyed by daylight.




That is not true. In case of Drow, it's "Light Blindness" says



> Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.




So, they are dazzled by any bright light, including Daylight spell. That trait is simply different from the weakness of Vampire.

And Vampire template does not remove this trait from a former drow. So, a Drow Vampire is dazzled by Daylight spell, not because he/she is a vampire, but because she still has "Light Blindness" trait.


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## robertliguori (Dec 3, 2008)

You're going to want divide and conquer.  Against the lich, you'll want an extended ambush, with waves, reinforcements, and multiple methods to prevent him from fleeing.  The idea isn't to destroy him, but to force him to use his spells, then bind him hand and jaw (hope he took Still and Silent Spell), then toss him into a coffin, seal it up with something nice and impermeable like mud turned to stone, then store the coffin somewhere ing secure.

Against the vampire, you'll want a powerful alpha strike.  Vampires are formidable combatants, but if you hit them hard and fast with special preparations (holy symbols, garlic, and mirrors to limit his mobility, a bunch of +1 undead-bane silver arrows with Flaming Arrow cast on the bunch and distributed to a corps of low-to-mid-level archers, alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, and the like), and he will likely go down hard.  If you can lock his gaseous form down (or follow it to his coffin), that will be the end of the vampire.

Finally, look at the party's ECL.  The lich is 4 levels higher than his hit dice indicate; the vampire eight.  The effective party level is actually 16.5 or so; start throwing accordant CRs at them if you want to challenge them.  Also, you might consider powering up the druid a little (and the spellthief a lot), then start throwing the kitchen sink at the party and see how they respond.


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## pawsplay (Dec 3, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> That is not true.




I really wasn't talking about what was true. The idea that a drow vampire isn't affected by _daylight_ is pretty ridiculous. But by a strict reading of the rules, it's possible to come to that conclusion.

What the rules _say_ is that creatures who are destroyed by sunlight are not affected. Drow vampires are destroyed by sunlight. Therefore, they are not affected. What the rules probably _meant_ was that _daylight_ is not sunlight for the purposes of destroying creatures who are destroyed by sunlight.


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## Shin Okada (Dec 3, 2008)

pawsplay said:


> I really wasn't talking about what was true. The idea that a drow vampire isn't affected by _daylight_ is pretty ridiculous. But by a strict reading of the rules, it's possible to come to that conclusion.




Well, the spell's name, "Daylight", could be a kind of misnomer. But I don't think "strict reading" is needed in this case, as the spell's descriptive text is saying that the light created by this spell is not true sunlight. 



> What the rules _say_ is that creatures who are destroyed by sunlight are not affected. Drow vampires are destroyed by sunlight. Therefore, they are not affected. What the rules probably _meant_ was that _daylight_ is not sunlight for the purposes of destroying creatures who are destroyed by sunlight.




If you are talking about Libris Mortis clarification, I think it is not possible to conclude that Drow Vampire cannot be blinded/dazzled by light created by Daylight spell. Daylight spell doesn't have any special effect undead. So it works just like ordinary bright light source. And because of Light Blindness trait drows and drow vampires are blinded/dazzled by any blight light. In this case, Daylight spell is not producing any special effect on vampire drow. It is just creating ordinary bright light.


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## prospero63 (Dec 4, 2008)

+1 for Radiant Servants of Pelor. Running one and he cuts through undead like a hot knife through melting butter... 

Also, not sure if you have clarified it yet or not (still reading the thread) but the level adjustments should have been huge here. There should have been levels and levels that went by where the druid and spell thief got more and more powerful and the lich and vampire spawn twiddled their thumbs paying LA's...


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## Don Ventresca (Dec 4, 2008)

Wait, I specifically remember reading you can;t play a creature with a 0 in any score, so why would the people at wizard make it legal to play a lich?


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## javcs (Dec 4, 2008)

Don Ventresca said:


> Wait, I specifically remember reading you can;t play a creature with a 0 in any score, so why would the people at wizard make it legal to play a lich?




A 0 score is a -5 modifier. All undead (and most constructs) have a Constitution score of "-", that is, they don't have one, their Con modifier is +0. Not having a score and having a score of 0 are two _very_ different things.

2 undead in a party, both of whom have used their resistance to true death? Stick a couple Inevitables (whichever variety is responsible for enforcing death) on the two of them (at least one each) - depending on how thoroughly you want them beaten, either advance the Inevitables' HD or give them class levels in an appropriately anti-Undead themed class or PRC.


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## Marred_Bard (Dec 4, 2008)

@ robertliguori: Regarding the Lich, won't that only hold him for about 8 hours? He can recover spells after then, so unless you're talking about a Permanence-ed Dimensionally Anchored, Magic Circle Against Evil-ed, Magic Circle Against Undead-ed, etc. prison, he might manage to get out. I'm not suggesting that you haven't thought it through, rather I'm curious. I chose the spells that I thought would prevent teleportation/planeswalking and domination/suggestion, but there's always the instance of finding that one spell that doesn't have verbal, somatic, material or focus requirements and exploiting it. What would _you _do to _keep_ him in there?

@ topic: I think the horse is looking a bit less attractive now that it's all dead and corpsified, but I'll aim another kick at it for the hell of it. As has been said, there's a level-gap that seems to be unaccounted-for so far. Maruts are fine (@ javcs), as are anit-undead classes/items. But the biggest anit-undead measures I can think of is to stick them on the Plane of Positive Energy for a good, hard fight. The other two will manage okay (if the druid has healing spells prepared) once they deal with the 'no air' problem, but the two undead should be ill-at-ease, to say the least. I know that the Positive Energy Plane doesn't kill them automatically, but if some force were to cause a flare-up of energy bursts (3d10 temp hp gained, but let's do the math and subtract it from undead, shall we?) it would threaten the PCs equally while putting the undead at a disadvantage when dealing with any encounters you wish to stage.


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## irdeggman (Dec 4, 2008)

meltinbradley said:


> And you are totally right about the imbalance between the PC's. If anything, that is what I dont like the most. But then again, those PC's were offered any class or race with a level box.





This is the absolute root of your problem. You did not understand the 3.5 system.

When you gave them a "level box" you didn't say create an ECL X character. You appear to have merely said X class levels and then allowed the "more knowledgeable players" to work the system and add in races/types that boosted the ECL and didn't factor that in for party equality. That and the fact that the sudden gain in ECL from the templates automatically places the game out of balance between PCs - which is why I like what WotC did with the Savage Progressions (from their web site) and the information in Savage Species - both give ways of gradually accounting for such increase in ECL so that it is more evenly spread out instead of a sudden gain of +4 to +8 in ECL.


Did the Lich pay the xp cost *in addition* to the gp for his phylactery?




> Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.




Doesn't that negative energy burst that heals the vampire spawn also hurt the non-undead in the party?


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## irdeggman (Dec 4, 2008)

prospero63 said:


> Also, not sure if you have clarified it yet or not (still reading the thread) but the level adjustments should have been huge here. There should have been levels and levels that went by where the druid and spell thief got more and more powerful and the lich and vampire spawn twiddled their thumbs paying LA's...




This is the real key that needs to be accounted for.

OP as you stated early that you sometimes throw really powerful foes that the 2 non-undead can't cope with - it is actually appropriate because of the *actual* ECL of the party.

The 2 non-undead PC's players should be really upset with the imbalance in the game - I know I would be if suddenly 2 other players were given such a huge level increase for their characters and I wasnt offered the same for mine.


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## Alasgore (Dec 5, 2008)

Personally I think lich and Vampire PC's are very hard to effectively meld with almost any player combination less than 8 player. The two templates were originally NPC only, plus they have such high LA's and lack of HD that any hope of using a slower progression (such as a monster class) is next to impossible. Liches are still over powered, and vampires unbalanced. As for fixing the damage, a resurrection spell is a potent weapon against sentient undead, but your world sounds low magic so a raise dead spell will remove the template and it will bum em down a level, and from experience level loss is very humbling


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## irdeggman (Dec 5, 2008)

Alasgore said:


> Personally I think lich and Vampire PC's are very hard to effectively meld with almost any player combination less than 8 player. The two templates were originally NPC only, plus they have such high LA's and lack of HD that any hope of using a slower progression (such as a monster class) is next to impossible. Liches are still over powered, and vampires unbalanced. As for fixing the damage, a resurrection spell is a potent weapon against sentient undead, but your world sounds low magic so a raise dead spell will remove the template and it will bum em down a level, and from experience level loss is very humbling




Here is the link to WotC's Savage Progressions article that has the lich progression.

Savage Progressions: Lich and Weretiger Template Classes

And here is the vampire (it also explains how the acquiring a template mid-campaign works)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a


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## Alasgore (Dec 5, 2008)

Effective, this is a very big step forwards for undead PC's
Though these are still high LA Templates and are not a good idea for inexperienced DM's or players to use.


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## Marred_Bard (Dec 5, 2008)

Good, Alasgore, though minor point: the one character is a Vampire _Spawn_, but _Libris Mortis_ has that progression, so it's no worry. Thanks for the vampire one, though, I had it handwritten from 7 years ago when we had not printer, and couldn't remember where to find it...


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## prospero63 (Dec 5, 2008)

Alasgore said:


> Effective, this is a very big step forwards for undead PC's
> Though these are still high LA Templates and are not a good idea for inexperienced DM's or players to use.




Yes, and yes. Also, don't forget that in the case of the savage progression, etc. those are instead of class levels. The way I think of it is while everyone else gains class levels, they gain template levels.


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## meltinbradley (Dec 12, 2008)

*Wow...*

I did not realize that more posts were added....

First of all, he is a Vampire Spawn. There is eight levels of it in the Libris Mortis, so there is no LA. However, I didn't trip off the fact that the Lich has a +4 LA...
robertliguori/pawsplay- Thanks for your ideas....
irdeggman- yes, he probably paid triple the xp cost. I just didnt give him any xp for a dew sessions. Then one day I was like, ok youre going to start to get xp now. Oh...if only you gave me the lich progession sooner.
The druid is actually kicking ass right now....aside from combat, he has so many useful spells that find and locate things and he is able to move from place to place easy, he is a crucial element to the group. I am not worried about him anymore. 
I am somewhat worried about the spell thief but I gave him crystals that affect undead and constructs, allowing to bypass damage reduction and cause critical damage. So when he gets his sneak attacks and he has some nasty spells that give him a really high hide and move silently, not to mention another spell that raises his AB he has become a pretty dangerous player. (I mainly gave him those so if the PC's try to take advantage of him he has some things he can do. He also has a mace of disruption.)

Currently, I seperated the lich who is serving a more powerful master from the group. I had the rest of the party fight and it seemed a lot better. The vampire was getting injured and didnt have the lich there to heal him.
I created a Ghale NPC and she is nasty towards undead and they dont want none with her.
The party will soon be leaving the world to travel the outer planes and once there there, lich or vampire it doesnt matter, theres TON's of things I can do....Thanks again everyone.


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## prospero63 (Dec 13, 2008)

meltinbradley said:


> I did not realize that more posts were added....
> 
> First of all, he is a Vampire Spawn. There is eight levels of it in the Libris Mortis, so there is no LA. However, I didn't trip off the fact that the Lich has a +4 LA...




So the vampire spawn is a Class Level X/Vampire Spawn 8? 



> I am somewhat worried about the spell thief but I gave him crystals that affect undead and constructs, allowing to bypass damage reduction and cause critical damage. So when he gets his sneak attacks and he has some nasty spells that give him a really high hide and move silently, not to mention another spell that raises his AB he has become a pretty dangerous player. (I mainly gave him those so if the PC's try to take advantage of him he has some things he can do. He also has a mace of disruption.)




IMO the most potent spellthief is actually designed to steal from his party, not the badguys...


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## meltinbradley (Dec 13, 2008)

*hmm*

Yes the vampire spawn is 8 levels in vampire spawn, and various levels in other classes. He is a total of 15th level.
Well, thats the funny thing. The spell thief is awesome in other things. He has like a hide and move silently of like 60+ when his spells are activated. He is a experienced gamer, been playing since first addition and knows his  which goes A LONG way. 
He actually saved the party several times. One time  he was able to steal a spell like ability from a enemy and because of that they were able to win the battle. He wouldn't last a second in a straight up fight, but he can disarm traps and locks really well.


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## concerro (Dec 15, 2008)

I have not read all the post, but the problem is not that they are undead. You have a druid, wizard, and dreadnecro(another caster). Casters are very powerful if one is in the group. It is actually better to go straight caster than lich, unless you get it for free like the DN does. Losing casters levels to level adjustments is not worth it if you are doing it for purposes of power.


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