# Is The Sunless Citadel a well-designed adventure module?



## Quasqueton (Jul 13, 2006)

Is the D&D3 adventure module _The Sunless Citadel_ a well-designed adventure module?







I’m not asking if you like it or had fun with it. I’m not asking if it is a great piece of D&D history. Just, is it well designed as a published adventure for general D&D play?

If it is, what could current module designers/authors learn from it? What should current module designers/authors try to emulate about it?

Quasqueton


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## el-remmen (Jul 13, 2006)

I chose "other" - I have never read it, played it or run it. 

But I must admit I am prejudiced against both 2E and 3E modules.


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## diaglo (Jul 13, 2006)

it needs errata. plus for use with the revised edition it needs a web enhancement update.


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## EricNoah (Jul 13, 2006)

I had to change some of the layout of the upper level to get it to make sense.  The choke-point of the whole complex -- the one room everyone has to pass through to get in and out -- was "controlled" by Meepo...  I thought that was feeble.  I added some extra walls/doors and remove some to make it possible for the goblins and the kobolds to move a bit more freely without intruding on each other's territory.  And I removed Meepo.


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## satori01 (Jul 13, 2006)

I'll say yes.  My appreciation for this module increased after having played it, I started DM'ing a homebrew.  1st level character are a bit tricky to design for,  they are surprisingly and almost randomly fragile.  Sunless Citadel is very good at sheparding characters into 2 level, and offering challenging but hopefully not lethal encounters.


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## Hussar (Jul 13, 2006)

Like El-Rammen, I have never played this so voted other.  I voted so I could see the results.


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## Numion (Jul 13, 2006)

I played through it, never DMed. 

I think it is well designed. There are some bad decisions, but it was a good 1st level romp. The backstory is really interesting. What was it, a tree grown from a stake put through a vampire? that's cool.


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## Rhun (Jul 13, 2006)

I've DM'd it...I thought that it was well-designed. Except for the Meepo subplot with the recapture of the white dragon. A group of 1st level PCs trying to capture a young white dragon? I had a lot of laughs with that at my player's expense.


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## Vanuslux (Jul 13, 2006)

I've run it and it played reasonably well.  There are some things I'd change about it if I ever ran it again but overall I think it was a fine module.  It was darned easy to slot into my homebrew setting, provided some good diplomacy and RPing opportunities, and some memorable battles.  

The worst design choice in it was the twig blights themselves.  They get two attacks for 1d2 damage each and each successful hit requires a saving throw from the PC, who takes 1 more point of damage if he fails.  Since these things attack in groups, the rolling wore a little thin after a while, especially in the fight with 10 of the buggers (that's 20 attack rolls per round for them alone, nevermind the potential number of saving throws).


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## Nomad4life (Jul 13, 2006)

It had Meepo in it.

Therefore, nothing can be wrong with it.


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## dougmander (Jul 13, 2006)

What's not to like? It's a classic dungeon crawl with a big fight at the end. That's a tried-and-true structure to hang an adventure on. I enjoyed DMing it, and that cute lil' gnome Erky Timbers stayed on with the party as an NPC for years to come.

As far as what designers can learn from it, it's a reminder that an adventure for 1st level characters has to be _very_ gentle, with low hp monsters, opportunities to flee or rest, and friendly NPCs to lend a hand.


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## GwydapLlew (Jul 13, 2006)

I really think that Sunless Citadel (and the sequel, Forge of Fury) were quite good at doing what they were supposed to do: walk DMs and players new to 3.0 through a pair of interesting low-level adventures.

I've always had fun running both of them, but it wasn't until I started annotating my copy of a Sunless Citadel for an online game that I realized exactly how much work was built into the encounters. Whether it was the explanation of trip attacks or Climb checks or the design example of having doors unlocked by turn checks, I really enjoyed it.

There were weaknesses to it - the final battle is a bit hard for a standard group of 1st- or 2nd-level PCs, and the twig blights were problematic - but I think overall it was a most excellent adventure.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 13, 2006)

Yes.  I DM'ed it when I was running 3e and it was fun for the players and me.  The best 3e module I ran.


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## Ourph (Jul 13, 2006)

I would give it a 7 out of 10.  It was a nice dungeoncrawl with some interesting stuff in it.  But it also had quite a bit of cheesiness and there were some layout problems that made the dungeon less usable.  Definitely the best post-2000 WotC module so far.


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## Dav (Jul 13, 2006)

Hussar said:
			
		

> Like El-Rammen, I have never played this so voted other.  I voted so I could see the results.



 Just click on "View Poll Results" to avoid voting, then.


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## stevelabny (Jul 13, 2006)

Absolutely.

I haven't played/ran a lot of published modules, and I've only read a few more than that. BUT every adventure I read always has massive problems. This one doesn't. 
Sunless Citadel...

-mostly makes sense 
-had a plot hook that could easily be used to get everyone interested in the crawl
-offered an entire section that could be taken be force OR diplomacy OR stealth
-offered something for everyone (traps, undead, encounters with numerous low-hp critters, --encounters with bigger tougher creatures) 
-had a personality-less 2hp NPC monster who has become a beloved icon. I think the EN World poll showed 50% of all Meepos somehow became inmportant to the party or campaign. There was just SOMETHING about the way he was presented.

The adventure was specifically designed for parties to try to use all of the new rules / classes / feats / skills and it shows.  Also, the way they followed up on the Gulthias tree in Heart of Nightfang Spire was a great lesson on how to tie stuff together.

This module doesnt fall into the trap of having bad plot hooks, or making the rogue useless (or too important) or having incredibly silly monsters / traps / NPCs.  Nor does it suffer from being completely boring and forgettable even if it is a level-1 adventure.


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## Akrasia (Jul 13, 2006)

While not perfect, it was well put together.  It was generic enough to fit into most campaign settings.  The backstory was also pretty cool -- I liked the evil wood creatures.


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## Sunderstone (Jul 13, 2006)

The module was perfect IMO, Stevelabny and GwydapLlew pretty much nailed it. 

It did ease the DM transition into 3rd edition rules, which in turn made for smoother gameplay and a very enjoyable time. I dont recall any weird and zany creatures, and it allowed PCs to use diplomacy as well as standard combat, all this from a introductory module.

While I may be a big fan of Bruce Cordell, this module was perfect IMHO. This module ranks among my favorites of all time. Good Stuff.


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## andrew_kenrick (Jul 13, 2006)

I like it a lot. It has it's problems, but it's mostly good.

We had a lot of fun with the white dragon too. The image of the characters trying to bludgeon it unconcious with table legs to get it back to Meepo haunted them all the way til epic level!


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## Mycanid (Jul 13, 2006)

Sigh.  Guess I'm with el-Remmen in voting "Other" as I have never read or played it....


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## shilsen (Jul 13, 2006)

I'm not a big fan of modules personally, but I think The Sunless Citadel is a pretty good one. While a couple of elements could use improvement, it does a solid job introducing 3e rules, which was one of the primary aims for it.


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## Khairn (Jul 13, 2006)

GM'ed it for 3 different groups and everyone enjoyed the adventure ... not a single disenting voice.

Is it perfect ? Nope.  But it is very  good, and is a great springboard for a new group.


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## Dragonbait (Jul 13, 2006)

Did it have problems? Yes, but Meepo is the hero of the adventure, so nothing can go wrong with it.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 13, 2006)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> And I removed Meepo.




You, you, did what?   But, but it's Meepo.


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## drothgery (Jul 13, 2006)

Considering that at 10th level, our DM is still occasionally doing stuff from dangling plot hooks dropped during The Sunless Citadel, I'd say it was pretty good.


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## satori01 (Jul 14, 2006)

I'm surprised people are claiming it is perfect.  Sunless Citadel works, it is usable, and not a bad entry dungeon.  It is on par with Palace of the Silver Princess in my book, but perfect... hardly.

As a whole it just is not that much fun, that creative, or that inspiring.


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## Starman (Jul 14, 2006)

satori01 said:
			
		

> I'm surprised people are claiming it is perfect.  Sunless Citadel works, it is usable, and not a bad entry dungeon.  It is on par with Palace of the Silver Princess in my book, but perfect... hardly.
> 
> As a whole it just is not that much fun, that creative, or that inspiring.




Well, it is people's _opinions _after all.


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## seskis281 (Jul 14, 2006)

While not "perfect" - and guess what, no adventure ever is, certainly not my own homewritten - it was the arrival of Sunless Citadel and Forge of Fury that got me back into gaming. These modules were the 1st products in years that took me back to the early 80's, and I used them as well as the rest through Nightfang Spire as part of my own connected campaign on the world of Greyhawk (all were set in and around the Gran March of that world).

Indeed, it was the publication of these stand-alone, non-Forgotten Realms or other setting-attached adventures that gave me hope that WOTC would bring back D&D with 3e like I remembered. Then sadly they only published the one series and went back to expensive supplements and eternal revisions and additions, as well as falling back to only publishing adventure material for Forgotten Realms and the dungeonpunk world of Eberron. Had they stuck with just the core books, one set of supplements for classes, and really worked to turn out inexpensive modules like this one that could be set in any world I think they'd have really avoided some of the complaints of how they've supported (and manipulated) this new wave of D&D.


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## Pants (Jul 14, 2006)

seskis281 said:
			
		

> Then sadly they only published the one series and went back to expensive supplements and eternal revisions and additions, as well as falling back to only publishing adventure material for Forgotten Realms and the dungeonpunk world of Eberron.



It's not 'dungeon-punk,' it's 'mage-punk.' 

Or it's anime, whichever nondescriptive term you wish to use.


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## Hussar (Jul 14, 2006)

> Had they stuck with just the core books, one set of supplements for classes, and *D20 Publishers* really worked to turn out inexpensive modules like this one that could be set in any world I think they'd have really avoided some of the complaints of how they've supported (and manipulated) this new wave of D&D.




There, fixed it for ya.


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## airwalkrr (Jul 14, 2006)

I voted "yes," but let me diverge a bit on why. The Sunless Citadel was a good 3e adventure. It was one of the first adventures to be released for 3e and it did a very good job of incorporating some of the things that made D&D interesting. The shatterspike sword, for instance, highlighted sundering and was so good it warrented inclusion in the 3.5 DMG. Additionally, it included a very memorable monster, the twigblight, which was original and challenging in a new way.

However, were this adventure released as a 1e adventure, I probably would have been disappointed with it. The Sunless Citadel does not thrive on puzzles and traps and problems. It thrives on the tactical aspects of D&D that make 3e a success. The Sunless Citadel is a tactical adventure, and because of that, it gets a "yes" vote from me.


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## airwalkrr (Jul 14, 2006)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> And I removed Meepo.




Sacrilige! He has to be my favorite 3e adventure character ever. Next to Lumbee of course. Why is it kobolds are so memorable?


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## Melan (Jul 14, 2006)

*Sunless Citadel* was a refreshing change after most 2e adventures and a step in the good direction. However, it didn't go far enough. The idea of a weird tree in an underground environment was sound, and so was making the adventure "just a dungeon crawl". The focus on tactical play was also commendable. However, there are problems with the dungeon design. SC plays too much like a story with a definite beginning and end - that is, it is too linear with not enough decision branches. Unlike *Keep on the Borderlands* or *In Search of the Unknown*, it doesn't do a good job of emphasizing the game's openness, where you can do almost anything in a complex environment. You go in and are pretty much expected to go along a certain path, tackle the situation and beat the "boss". That is not too bad for tournament design, but an intorductory product should probably be more open. I also have some stylistic quibbles (e.g. the portrayal of goblins/kobolds as "cute"), but this is outside good design and in the realm of personal opinion.

What would have made SC a good intro module? A little bit more extensive village and wilderness section would have helped. Instead of "the base" where you "recover" and "get quests", the village could have used more adventure hooks, a treacherous NPC guide, for instance, or a sub-quest outside the dungeon... A few wilderness encounters along the way or off the beaten path - e.g. like the infamous mad hermit or lizardman mound. Second, the dungeon should have had more alternate paths, circular routes, hidden stuff the players could find and so on. It would have made it a more rewarding experience and introduced beginning players to the concept that the decisions they make have more impact. All these changes would have pushed the module into the 48-56 page range, but with 3e's large stat blocks, this wouldn't have made it unwieldy.

Personally, I maintain that Necromancer's *Crucible of Freya* - some minor problems notwithstanding, like the railroading style opening - makes for a much better intro. You get a situation and you can deal with it almost any way you like.

For these reasons, I voted no. However, this is all comparative - compared to 2e products (e.g. an "intro" module like *Terrible Trouble at Tragidore* or *Beneath the Twisted Tower*) I had the misfortune of owning, it is a masterpiece. Compared to the best of the best, it is a nice try but not enough. Which is a pity because an introductory module *should be* among the best of the best.


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## DragonLancer (Jul 14, 2006)

dougmander said:
			
		

> What's not to like? It's a classic dungeon crawl with a big fight at the end. That's a tried-and-true structure to hang an adventure on. I enjoyed DMing it, and that cute lil' gnome Erky Timbers stayed on with the party as an NPC for years to come.
> 
> As far as what designers can learn from it, it's a reminder that an adventure for 1st level characters has to be _very_ gentle, with low hp monsters, opportunities to flee or rest, and friendly NPCs to lend a hand.




I couldn't put it better myself. For a low level, and newbie easy module, its well designed.


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## The_Gneech (Jul 14, 2006)

I had a few issues with it, mostly around the Dragonpriest. Why the heck would somebody fanatic about becoming a dragon turn into a troll instead?   I kept the stats as written but changed his appearance to that of a dragonkin, and he eventually became a recurring villain.

In fact now, five years after his death, he still bedevils the PCs as an occasional encounter with his ghost. 

My only other real gripe is that the NPCs at the end should be redeemable -- so in my game, they were.

Everything else is a fine adventure!

-The Gneech


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## The Shaman (Jul 14, 2006)

Melan said:
			
		

> SC plays too much like a story with a definite beginning and end - that is, it is too linear with not enough decision branches. Unlike *Keep on the Borderlands* or *In Search of the Unknown*, it doesn't do a good job of emphasizing the game's openness, where you can do almost anything in a complex environment. You go in and are pretty much expected to go along a certain path, tackle the situation and beat the "boss". That is not too bad for tournament design, but an intorductory product should probably be more open.



QFT.


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## Storm Raven (Jul 14, 2006)

The_Gneech said:
			
		

> I had a few issues with it, mostly around the Dragonpriest. Why the heck would somebody fanatic about becoming a dragon turn into a troll instead?   I kept the stats as written but changed his appearance to that of a dragonkin, and he eventually became a recurring villain.




His condition was a _punishment_, not a reward. Being turned into a dragon would be a goal he aspired to. Being turned into a troll is the penalty for his transgressions against his own religion.


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## Megatron (Jul 14, 2006)

Wow, I hate to say it after seeing how many people loved The Sunless Citadel - but I hated running it and thought it was illdesigned.
Oh well, it's been awhile so I think I should take another look at it.


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## The_Gneech (Jul 14, 2006)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> His condition was a _punishment_, not a reward. Being turned into a dragon would be a goal he aspired to. Being turned into a troll is the penalty for his transgressions against his own religion.




I understand that; I still thought it was silly.  My own take was that he had managed to be partially successful -- which _was_ the transgression. Hubris, as it were, to think a mere mortal could aspire to be a god (which is how their cult saw dragons). The punishment was being locked in eternal stasis -- a kind of "curse of immortality" thing.

-The Gneech


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## Storm Raven (Jul 14, 2006)

The_Gneech said:
			
		

> I understand that; I still thought it was silly.  My own take was that he had managed to be partially successful -- which _was_ the transgression. Hubris, as it were, to think a mere mortal could aspire to be a god (which is how their cult saw dragons). The punishment was being locked in eternal stasis -- a kind of "curse of immortality" thing.




Well, thinking it was silly is different. You said you didn't understand "why the heck" he turned into a troll instead of a dragon. Clearly you misspoke. You _did_ understand, you just didn't like it.


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## Storm Raven (Jul 14, 2006)

I ran it, but not as written.

I changed the background to make it a temple located in the heart of a swamp devoted to a demonic parton of evil lizardkind and a lord of poison. At it's heart, instead of the Gulthias tree, was a fountain (in the shape of the deity) and altar that, when a lizardfolk or kobold was washed in the waters, would make them fiendish. The temple had been destroyed, sunken, and walled off long before, and the fountain's flow into the unholy basin interruped.

The temple was recently reopened by an evil priest allied with a band of bullywugs and chaond (called, collectively, wuggles) and the fountain's flow restored. The waters flowing into the unholy basin "called" to the blood of lizardfolk in the area, uncontrollably drawing them to try to get to the fountain, hence the kobolds (with a few lizardfolk) trying to get into the complex.

The evil priest was trying to use the power of the temple to "improve" his wuggle servants, but the magic of the unholy basin warped and twisted non-lizardfolk (like wuggles, or captured humans) turning them into hyperviolent morons. The twig blights were the result of the poison of the fountain running off into the surrounding waters.

I never told the characters I was running a module. I don't think they ever knew.


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## The_Gneech (Jul 14, 2006)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Well, thinking it was silly is different. You said you didn't understand "why the heck" he turned into a troll instead of a dragon. Clearly you misspoke. You _did_ understand, you just didn't like it.




_Nolo contendere!_

-TG


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## Sunderstone (Jul 14, 2006)

Melan said:
			
		

> What would have made SC a good intro module? A little bit more extensive village and wilderness section would have helped. Instead of "the base" where you "recover" and "get quests", the village could have used more adventure hooks, a treacherous NPC guide, for instance, or a sub-quest outside the dungeon... A few wilderness encounters along the way or off the beaten path - e.g. like the infamous mad hermit or lizardman mound. Second, the dungeon should have had more alternate paths, circular routes, hidden stuff the players could find and so on. It would have made it a more rewarding experience and introduced beginning players to the concept that the decisions they make have more impact. All these changes would have pushed the module into the 48-56 page range, but with 3e's large stat blocks, this wouldn't have made it unwieldy.




Why must everything be a mini-campaign to some? Its easy enough for any DM to expand on, How hard is it to toss in an NPC here and there or a side-trek? Its this style of thinking that kills the classic/basic module design. Everything has to be huge and in-depth, blah, blah.....  :\ 

The module was exactly what it was .... a focused, introductory module. It hit upon enough of the core rules without going overboard for an easy transition to 3rd edition. This type of module is what the market is missing these days (of course this is my opinion   ). Small and Simple but easy enough to expand if one wanted to.


I do love the Wizard's Amulet/Crucible of Freya combo as well (Ive run both). Both are great for a beginning to any campaign.


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## morbiczer (Jul 14, 2006)

I really liked the Sunless Citadel (I DMed it once). But there are things I would change if I would run it again:

1. I don't think the layout of the Sunless Citadell makes sense. Why would anyone build such a maze? So if I had the time, I would draw a new map. 

2. If I remember well, the entrance to the whole complex isn't guarded by the kobolds. This also doesn't make much sense, although I understand that this has been probably done to enable peaceful contact with Meepo. 

I think the best part about the adventure is that it encourages negotiation with the kobolds instead of violence.


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## Vanuslux (Jul 15, 2006)

It was nice to have one of these threads regarding a module that I've actually had experience with.  Unfortunately I've never played in any of the classic modules since I didn't start getting into the game until 2nd Edition AD&D and even then the only modules I experienced were Ravenloft modules.


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## Melan (Jul 15, 2006)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Why must everything be a mini-campaign to some? Its easy enough for any DM to expand on, How hard is it to toss in an NPC here and there or a side-trek? Its this style of thinking that kills the classic/basic module design. Everything has to be huge and in-depth, blah, blah.....  :\
> 
> The module was exactly what it was .... a focused, introductory module. It hit upon enough of the core rules without going overboard for an easy transition to 3rd edition. This type of module is what the market is missing these days (of course this is my opinion   ). Small and Simple but easy enough to expand if one wanted to.



We seem to be in agreement - I don't think Sunless Citadel should have been a mini-campaign. It should have remained short and focused. *However*, Keep on the Borderlands was also short and focused, and had a base of operations and a few wilderness treks in addition to the dungeon. By being more economical with space and maybe some additional pages, Sunless Citadel could have been much better... without beign overburdened.


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## Spatula (Jul 15, 2006)

Great module, certainly the best of the WOTC 3E adventures that I've read.  It's perfectly generic (and simple to expand or modify) but has a number of very easy-to-use hooks that can be used with just about any kind of party.  It includes some nice roleplaying opportunities and doesn't require the party to kill everything that crosses their path.  The backstory is rather clever, and the follow-up in Heart of Nightfang Spire shows a nice use of foreshadowing.  It also gets points from me for having an unusual BBEG.

The only real "flaw" I would say is the text not mentioning that the goblins have no path to the surface, thanks to the kobolds.  This is actually necessary for one of the hooks (if the PCs are there for the apple, and the goblins can make it to the town to hold the auction for it, there's no adventure), but it has caused some confusion.  My assumption is that the kobolds arrived in the period between apples and have pushed the goblins back.


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## Melan (Jul 15, 2006)

And just a note: I opened a new thread on the subject of dungeon design and the problems of linearity. Sunless Citadel is discussed and compared with several other intor products - my claims that it is too linear seems to have been substantiated.


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## monboesen (Jul 15, 2006)

I thought a good and robust adventure. I agree that the weakest part is the interaction between the kobolds and the goblins and the goblins lack of an exit..

That it did not have major setting specific tie ins was a huge advantage to me as I used it in a homebrew world. That made it easy to fit in and expand the city and adjacent areas.


I threw in a few changes

•	A simple one session starting adventure that foreshadowed the horror of the twig blights.
•	I fleshed out the village and the people and made it the player characters home village.
•	I made the mayor sort of a culprit who dealt with the goblins apples in secrecy and kept the money for himself.
•	They had some encounters with the twig blights on the way to the citadel.
•	Drew some additional exits from the citadel.



As it turned out the adventure ended up being really really worth its cost. Due to how the campaign progressed my players ended up going down to the damn citadel no less than three times!

The first time it was more or less the standard adventure, but the players dealt peacefully with the kobolds and left them in control of the citadel.

Some time (and levels) later they had to go back as people from the village was disappearing and the disappearances seemed somehow linked to the citadel and the kobolds. The kobolds had used the time to trap and fortify the entire complex and the players got into a lot of trouble. It turned out that there were two factions of kobolds and they again left one of them more or less intact and in control of the citadel.

More time (and more levels) later Gulthias recovered (the vampire staked under the citadel) and weak as he was started feeding on the kobolds. This time Meepo sought out the heroes and begged for help against the monsters that hunted the kobolds. The players went down a third time and dealt with kobold vampire spawns (but Gulthias evaded them). They left with Meepo a hero and in charge of the kobolds.


Great fun really. In fact many of the campaigns major plot lines and ideas came from that adventure. Lots of little details and notes just sparked my imagination and gave birth to a campaign that reached far beyond that citadel.


I miss that campaign.


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## Ranes (Jul 15, 2006)

I thought it was very good and just what was needed as an introductory module. I didn't have a problem giving my players clues that suggested the goblins' original route to the village had been cut off in the ebb and flow of the power struggle between them and the kobolds. I did have concerns with the cute kobold angle but I ran it that way and all three groups I DM'ed it for had a laugh with it.


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## RFisher (Jul 15, 2006)

Why I voted No:

The d4 abandoned farm houses. This might have been a joke, but Bruce didn't pull it off as one.

While the idea of showcasing the new rules is good, in too many cases the situation to do so seemed too contrived.

When the only door into room X is in room Y & there is something special about the door between rooms X & Y, the description of that door _should_ be in Y's entry.

Way too many errors. In the first adventure for a new edition, an adventure intended for low-level character in which nothing gets too complicated, you've got to triple-check those numbers.

The description of the passage from the 1st to the 2nd level killed it for my group. We couldn't take the module seriously _at all_ after that.

WotC already had the notion that adventures couldn't be profitable. (Based on data from late-TSR, whose product strategy was widely considered flawed. If the strategy is flawed, that taints the data.) _The Sunless Citadel_ confirmed that opinion by underwhelming people so that the later adventures in the line didn't sell as well.

I think it's a servicable adventure, but not well designed. OK designed. Unfortunate that it was choosen to be the first module many people would experience under the new edition.


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## Hussar (Jul 15, 2006)

> However, Keep on the Borderlands was also short and focused,




Now there's an interesting idea.

A module without any guidance on how it should be played out.  Pretty much entirely non-linear and allows for a plethora of character choices.  

How is that focused?  Sure, you have the Keep here and the Caves here and maybe a couple of things in the middle, but, other than that, there's pretty much no focus other than go to the dungeon and kill stuff.  Come back when you've had enough, rest and do it again until there's no more stuff to kill.  

Not exactly pinpoint focus.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 15, 2006)

After reading all the comments, I am now possibly interested in running Sunless Citadel for a group of people that I am going to be teaching to play D&D, instead of running my own home made adventure. I've had it since it came out, read it a few times, but have never run it. So, with the possibility of running it soon, what resources are out there for the adventure? I know Claudio Pozas has a few pictures on his website depicting NPCs and scenes, but what else is out there?


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## Mark (Jul 15, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> After reading all the comments, I am now possibly interested in running Sunless Citadel for a group of people that I am going to be teaching to play D&D, instead of running my own home made adventure. I've had it since it came out, read it a few times, but have never run it. So, with the possibility of running it soon, what resources are out there for the adventure? I know Claudio Pozas has a few pictures on his website depicting NPCs and scenes, but what else is out there?





Most of Oakhurst could be handled by the Map Folio 3-D from WotC, if you like that sort of thing (like I do).  You could use some WorldWorks stuff for the Sunless Citadel interiors.  D&D Minis finally came out with a Twig Blight mini.  Get your hands on about a dozen of those, one of the early incarnations of Meepo, and most of the other minis should have some representation.  Not sure about the water mephit or the Medium fire elemental.  Maybe pick up a bonzai plant for the Gulthias Tree.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Mark said:
			
		

> Most of Oakhurst could be handled by the Map Folio 3-D from WotC, if you like that sort of thing (like I do).  You could use some WorldWorks stuff for the Sunless Citadel interiors.  D&D Minis finally came out with a Twig Blight mini.  Get your hands on about a dozen of those, one of the early incarnations of Meepo, and most of the other minis should have some representation.  Not sure about the water mephit or the Medium fire elemental.  Maybe pick up a bonzai plant for the Gulthias Tree.




Ah, I guess I should have been a little more specific. I was thinking in terms of online resources (3.5 conversions-although I can do that on the fly, story hours, errata, that sort of stuff) that people have developed while running it on their own. I've got more miniatures than I'll ever need to cover it, and the same with terrain.


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## Spatula (Jul 16, 2006)

As it's so low level, there's not much needed in the way of conversions.  There's only one NPC that I can think of that might need updating... well, his animal companion needs updating, anyway.


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## rounser (Jul 16, 2006)

> Why must everything be a mini-campaign to some? Its easy enough for any DM to expand on, How hard is it to toss in an NPC here and there or a side-trek? Its this style of thinking that kills the classic/basic module design. Everything has to be huge and in-depth, blah, blah.....
> 
> The module was exactly what it was .... a focused, introductory module.



Sure.  It indoctrinates new players into being railroaded, and given that the rest of the adventure path is also a railroad, it's probably best not to get their hopes up as to actually having some meaningful player choice about the direction of the campaign.


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## Pants (Jul 16, 2006)

rounser said:
			
		

> Sure.  It indoctrinates new players into being railroaded, and given that the rest of the adventure path is also a railroad, it's probably best not to get their hopes up as to actually having some meaningful player choice about the direction of the campaign.



Eh? What was so railroady about it? I played in TSC and I don't remember ever being railroaded.


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## Numion (Jul 16, 2006)

rounser said:
			
		

> Sure.  It indoctrinates new players into being railroaded, and given that the rest of the adventure path is also a railroad, it's probably best not to get their hopes up as to actually having some meaningful player choice about the direction of the campaign.




I've played through it, and it wasn't railroaded.


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