# Building an efficient Dual Wielder



## WarpedAcorn (Jan 30, 2017)

The general sentiment I've gathered is that Dual-Wielding in 5th Edition is sub-optimal. This stems from the off-hand attack never actually increasing in frequency, and the lack of a Feat similar to Great Weapon Master. With that in mind, if you were building a character with the intention of having weapons in each hand, what would the most efficient build be? For fun, lets consider an 8th, 12th, and 20th level variation.

The staples, to me, seem to be the Dual Wielder Feat and the the Dual Wield Fighting Style (although the Dual Wield Fighting Style is debatable). Outside of that, I am not aware of anything else that increases the effectiveness of Dual Wielding.

Class-wise I see a solid combo being a Fighter/Rogue, specifically Battlemaster/Swashbuckler. Rogue shifts a lot of the pressure from the Dual Wield efficiency onto Sneak Attack bonus damage, with Dual Wielding's purpose being more of a delivery system than primary damage outlet. The Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork would also allow mobility that would otherwise be taken by Cunning Action, eating up that precious Bonus Action Attack. The Battlemaster's Riposte would allow extra Sneak Attacks as well as opportunities to apply special attacks with the offhand attacks. I feel this is worth dipping into Fighter.

So my thoughts are:
8th) Rogue-Swashbuckler 5 / Fighter-Battlemaster 3 (Defensive Fighting Style, Maneuvers = Riposte/Precision/Menacing, Dual Wielder Feat @ Rogue 4)

12th) Rogue-Swashbuckler 7 / Fighter-Battlemaster 5 (Defensive Fighting Style, Maneuvers = Riposte/Precision/Menacing, Dual Wielder Feat @ Rogue 4, Str/Dex ASI @ Fighter 4)

20th) Rogue-Swashbuckler 14 / Fighter-Battlemaster 6 (Defensive Fighting Style, Maneuvers = Riposte/Precision/Menacing, Dual Wielder Feat @ Rogue 4, Str/Dex ASI @ Fighter 4, Str/Dex ASI @ Fighter 6, Con ASI @ Rogue 8, Con ASI @ Rogue 10, Con ASI @ Rogue 12)

*ASI's can be swapped for Feats as needed, but I could not think of any "must have" Feats...although Lucky and Tavern Brawler could fit in for certain characters.


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## Yunru (Jan 30, 2017)

Paladins are also a good, if somewhat unconventional, choice. The real clincher is the Improved Divine Smite.
It's also nice because while Polearm Master would probably serve them better, the Paladin only has five ASIs, and two stats they probably want to max out.


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## Gladius Legis (Jan 30, 2017)

Oathbreaker Paladin, especially. Aura of Hate CHA bonus on all attacks, in addition to the Improved Divine Smite the other Paladins get.


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## WarpedAcorn (Jan 30, 2017)

Paladin is an interesting option, but my only concern is the limited resource in spell slots for the Divine Strikes. From a single-round Nova perspective it seems like a solid option though.


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## Gladius Legis (Jan 30, 2017)

Improved Divine Smite and (for Oathbreakers) Aura of Hate don't use up resources. Because of those things, dual-wielding is a bona-fide substantial DPR boost for Paladins. Then add the Divine Smite nova potential on top of that.


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## cooperjer (Feb 2, 2017)

A player and I went over the different fighting style a lot about 3 or 4 months ago.  My conclusion was that a rule change to swap the abilities of Dueling Fighting style and Great Weapon fighting style made things more balanced.  Refer to this post.  http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Fighting-Styles-in-5ed&p=6923332#post6923332


Dueling feels like it works best when Hunters Mark or Hex are involved.  Hex or Hunters Mark seem to be most beneficial when the combat will run more than 3 rounds.  In addition, if you have the ability to add more than just your strength or dex bonus then it helps a lot. In addition to the paladin class, the warlock class can add their charisma bonus to their bound weapon attacks.  As written this is a single weapon, but you might be able to convince your DM to allow it to apply to both weapons of a dual wielder.

There may be a couple spells that work well in addition to Hunters Mark or Hex.  I would have to look at Shillelagh to find out if it is concentration and if you can put it on two weapons.  The spells Magic Weapon and Elemental Weapon are two that should be looked as well.


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## Yunru (Feb 2, 2017)

cooperjer said:


> A player and I went over the different fighting style a lot about 3 or 4 months ago.  My conclusion was that a rule change to swap the abilities of Dueling Fighting style and Great Weapon fighting style made things more balanced.  Refer to this post.  http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Fighting-Styles-in-5ed&p=6923332#post6923332
> 
> 
> Dueling feels like it works best when Hunters Mark or Hex are involved.  Hex or Hunters Mark seem to be most beneficial when the combat will run more than 3 rounds.  In addition, if you have the ability to add more than just your strength or dex bonus then it helps a lot. In addition to the paladin class, the warlock class can add their charisma bonus to their bound weapon attacks.  As written this is a single weapon, but you might be able to convince your DM to allow it to apply to both weapons of a dual wielder.
> ...



How does further increasing the damage great weapons do make them more balanced?


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## cooperjer (Feb 3, 2017)

Yunru said:


> How does further increasing the damage great weapons do make them more balanced?



In the analysis I did, linked above, I found that the two weapon fighting style becomes equal to or surpasses the great weapon fighting style for the fighter class with a pole arm, page 17 of the PDF.  The slight shift up sets the great weapon damage apart from the two weapon damage for the fighter class.  There is already pretty good separation for the barbarian and paladin classes.


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## ShogunAssassin (Feb 5, 2017)

this is a kinda idea where im going with my Dual wielder / Archer

So my thoughts are:
8th) Rogue-Swashbuckler 3 / Ranger-Revised Deep Delver 5, Dual Wielder Feat @ Ranger 4)

12th) Rogue-Swashbuckler 5 / Ranger- Deep Delver 7, Dual Wielder Feat @ Ranger 4, Dex ASI @ Rogue 4)

20th) Rogue-Swashbuckler 11 / Ranger- Deep Delver 7 / Fighter 2 (Archery), Dual Wielder Feat @ Ranger 4, Dex ASI @ Rogue 4, cha ASI [MENTION=1307]Rogue[/MENTION] 8, Sharpshooter or Crossbow expert @ Rogue 10, 


You get the extra attack + hunters mark from the ranger as well as prof wis saves at 7. Though then it starts to fizzle out. 

I would possibly consider fighter 3 for the battlemaster but unsure if its worth giving up on the Reliable Talent and 6d6 sneak, im not sure how OP this is but if you have any suggestions that would be helpful

I also rolled stats so i have a 18 dex, i like the build because you are effective at range, melee, skill checks, saving throws and a touch of spell casting


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## Ovarwa (Feb 5, 2017)

Hi,

The assumptions in this analysis seem odd and incongruous.  Median rather than mean?  Magic Initiate for Hex being relevant for more than a tiny fraction of an adventuring day?  Sentinel working every round?  Magic weapons being gained at different levels for different builds?  Etc.

I don't know what to make of this analysis, nor am I sure it pertains to any but the most rare game.

It could be nothing more than my reading comprehension, of course.

Anyway,

Ken


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## mellored (Feb 5, 2017)

Hunter's Mark/Hex doesn't work too well with dual wielding, due to the fact that it competes with your bonus action.
Sure, if you're facing a big bad, and you can sneak up and cast it before battle begins, then it can add some good damage.  But overall things tend to die in a round and then you need to reapply it.

Crusader's mantle on the other hand, is much more likely to be useful, as it follows you.  Another feather for paladins.


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## Ovarwa (Feb 5, 2017)

Hi,

In a similar vein, Hex works better for a high-level Warlock using EB than for a high-level Bladelock or similar, since the latter's action involves fewer attack rolls (and opportunities to roll the Hex d6.)

Anyway,

Ken


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