# Optimizing A Bard



## Timely Drought (Aug 14, 2008)

So, I'm going to play in a D&D 3.5e campaign soon. All the basic roles are covered by other players, and I felt like playing a bard. However, I've never tackled the issue of optimizing bards, nor looking at bard-related feats and prestige classes. I've barely glanced at the spell list. We'll be using core books + complete series only.

I was thinking of just going pure, picking up perform, social skills, and a few knowledge skills. No clue which feats to pick, and I haven't looked at bard prestige classes at all. Is there anyone thats looked at bard optimization options? I know I won't be tremendous help in combat probably, bard song will help, and with luck I can get some handy items to UMD.

I'm guessing I'll be an archer bard over a melee bard, but I haven't really looked at the benefits of each. However, I'd like my main stat to be charisma, and my main focus on spellcasting and social skills, and not worry too much about combat.

Any suggestions on where to go with bards? I'd really like to see what people have done with bards and how they've built them through campaigns.


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## Artoomis (Aug 14, 2008)

Here is what I have done. At first, I went almost totally for the social aspect, neglecting most combat skills. this included choosing the whip - for fun, rather than true effectiveness.

My Eberron Bard:

Stats (in priority order):

INT 18 (for skill points)
CHA 16 (for obvious reasons)
WIS 12 (because the bard is more mental than physical)
CON 12 (for survivability)
DEX 10
STR 10

Skill points:

1. Diplomacy (max)
2. Use Magic Device (eventually will give you GREAT flexibility)
3. Gather Information (You really ought to do this)
4. Knowledge (various, as much as you can, because, well, you're a BARD)

Well, you get the idea, I think. 

Spells (at 19th level)

1.

Detect Magic 
Know Direction
Light
Prestidigitation
Read Magic
Summon Instrument

2.

Comp. Languages
Cure Lt. Wounds
Feather Fall
Identify
Improvisation
Inspirational Boost
Magic Missile
Battle Hymn
Dimensional Leap
Rope Trick
Speak to Allies
Tongues
Wraithstrike

3.

Displacement
Haste
Major Image
Scrying
Sculpt Sound

4.

Freedom of Movement
Invisibility (Greater)
Mirror Image (Greater)
Ruin Delver's Fortune

5.

Body Harmonic
Dispel Magic (Greater)
Shadow Evocation
Shadow Walk

6.

Dirge
Irresistible Dance
Project Image

Classes:

Bard 7
Legacier of Galifar (custom) 5
Lyric Thaumaturge (spelled wrong!) 5
Heir of Syberus 2

Feats:

Force of Personality
Heroic Spirit
Lingering Music (VERY important)
Melodic Casting (Also VERY important)
Song of the Heart (very, very useful)
Spell Focus (Transmutation) (What a waste, really)
Versatile Performer
Action Surge
Captivating Melody (Have not used it yet)
Weapon Focus (Whip)

My basic approach was to emphasize non-combat fun stuff, and, especially at first, I counted all damage done as a result of Inspire Courage as credited to me.  That made my general ineffectiveness in combat (at low levels) as acceptable.

Also, it's fun to strip weapons from enemies!


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## Artoomis (Aug 14, 2008)

You can also look to 
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1018968.
http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-795369.html
http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-816095.html
http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-826298.html
http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-943298.html
http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-952766.html


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 14, 2008)

Mistwell had an awesome thread on inspire courage optimization as well, if anyone has a link.  And whip is a very effective weapon.  It lets you trip and disarm from afar.  My friend liked to fight casters by readying actions to disarm them of their material components mid-casting.


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## taliesin15 (Aug 15, 2008)

As to Bard spells, I really try to go for all the Sonic-oriented spells, in addition to the usual combo of offense and defense. Modify Memory, Ventriloquism, Whispering Wind, Sculpt Sound, Shout, etc. I find Phantom Steed very useful, as Bards definitely travel a lot. On the other hand, I really gotta wonder why a Bard would really get Identify and Legend Lore given Bardic Knowledge.

The low HP of a Bard tends to rule out the Melee-oriented Bard, though with a really high DEX score, I suppose one route could be to work up Feats to Spring Attack, or even Whirlwind Attack.

Usually, it seems the best option is the Archer Bard--makes sense with the Bard's natural support role and usually higher than average Dex score.

I see I'm not the only advocate of a Bard with high INT score--I tend to think emphasis on the many Skill points is a good approach--supplementing these with the INT bonuses really makes sense. This tends to yield a character who's a bit like a Rogue, and possibly a Bard could substitute for a Rogue since there are many skill overlaps. One thing I find interesting is both Rogue and Bard tend to be at home in urban settings; and yet, there's much to the Bard that seems at home in the Wilderness too.

Usually, it seems that WIS and STR are going to be the lower scores--a high CON makes since with d6 per level. That said, some campaign milieus are very culturally oriented. IMC, a major part of the milieu is Viking in flavor--the Skald tends to be more melee-oriented. Further west, you have Celts whose Bards are a bit more like Clerics and Druids, a combo of those plus sages (or Loremasters, a class I find utterly cheesy).


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 15, 2008)

A high Dex, high Int, low Wis score Bard always makes me think of the immortal Danny Kaye, especially in his lead role in the hilarious "The Court Jester."

Its kind of my personal archetype for Bards and Bard-like PCs.

(I used to run a 2Ed PC called "Harlequin" who was a F/MU/Th, who did things like insult the big dragon and somehow talked her way out of the jam...sometimes _only_ her.)


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## taliesin15 (Aug 15, 2008)

Course there are some WIS based skills you might like to have bonuses for. Of all the core classes, Bard is probably the one I'd play if my first lvl character had all 16s in Ability scores


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## Timely Drought (Aug 15, 2008)

We're using 30 point buy, so I'm thinking of the following:

Ability Scores
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 16


```
Skills                      1    5    10    Comments

Bluff                       4    9    13    Diplomacy synergy
Concentration               4    9    13
Decipher Script             2    5    5     UMD scroll synergy
Diplomacy                   4    9    13
Gather Information          4    9    13
Knowledge (History)         4    5    5     Bardic knowledge synergy
Knowledge (Nobility)        4    5    5     Diplomacy synergy
Listen                      4    9    13
Perform (Sing)              4    9    13
Sense Motive                4    9    13    Diplomacy synergy
Spellcraft                  1    1    11    UMD scroll synergy
Use Magic Device            1    1    13
```

Feats
1. Jack of all Trades
1. Lingering Song
3. Versatile Performer (wind, string, oratory)
6. Disguise Spell
9. Subsonics

I've only planned levels 1 to 10 so far. I looked at virtuoso and sublime chord, but I didnt like to loss of class skills and skill points. Other than the core books, we only have access to the complete series. All of the feats I picked are from complete adventurer. The leadership feat will probably be banned since we have a big group.

Do the bluff, knowledge (nobility), and sense motive synergies stack to +6, or do I only get +2 with all three at 5 or more?


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## Timely Drought (Aug 15, 2008)

Looking at the Melodic Casting feat, I wonder which feat I should swap out for it. I'm thinking of delaying Lingering Song until 9th level instead of subsonics.

Although the disguise spell + subsonics combo looks like fun. Whistle a tune (hard to spot and inaudible) to cast spells without being noticed.

It would also save me the concentration skill points. Not sure which skill to pick up though, perhaps Sleight of Hand?


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## taliesin15 (Aug 15, 2008)

Skills you haven't listed that I would consider important:
Bard Class Skills: Appraise, Climb, Disguise, Escape, Hide, Move Silently, Swim
Cross Class: Ride, Search, Spot (too bad you can't get Read Lips, seems natural for a Sonic based Character Class)

Personally, I think its important that every PC has at least one rank in Ride and Swim. Then again, they can do these untrained.

Appraise you can bypass since you got Bard Knowledge.

But Hide and Move Silently! As Class Skills? You should seriously consider them. Disguise for obvious reasons too, CHA bonus, and maybe synergy bonus with Bluff and or Perform (you might be Performing as a Drag Queen, for example).

Climb (and Jump for that matter) would be good for a Roguish Bard, but probably not as key as Hide and Move Silently, not to mention Escape Artist. Plus the bonus for the former two is STR...


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## akbearfoot (Aug 15, 2008)

I would ask your DM to allow you to take the song of the Heart feat from Ebberon, and the Inspirational boost spell from the spell compendium(a 1st level bard spell).

Both the feat and the spell give you a +1 bonus on your inspire courage ability...Bardic music is basically a bards largest contribution to a group, combat wise.  Since generally fighting takes up a big chunk of a gaming groups time it's important not to totally suck in combat 

If you can do the +3 inspire courage early on, you can focus most of your other stuff on the social skills so you can be the party face, and information broker etc...Which is handy, but usually not quite so vital as keeping yourselves alive.


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## Griego (Aug 15, 2008)

Inspire Courage Optimization


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## Timely Drought (Aug 15, 2008)

About all the inspire courage optimization, its not gonna happen. We're doing Core + Complete series only. I'm not going to ask for exceptions for a bunch of stuff. I wouldn't want the other players to import broken combinations of feats from other sources either.



taliesin15 said:


> Skills you haven't listed that I would consider important:
> Bard Class Skills: Appraise, Climb, Disguise, Escape, Hide, Move Silently, Swim
> Cross Class: Ride, Search, Spot (too bad you can't get Read Lips, seems natural for a Sonic based Character Class)
> 
> ...




I really don't see the use of hide and move silently. For a rogue, sure. And rangers. But a bard? I'd rather hide in plain sight and totally abuse disguise spell and/or subsonics. If I'm desperate to sneak around I can use invisibility and silence.

As for the rest, they don't seem as good as what I've picked already. I've got Jack of All Trades, so I have half my my level in all of these skills anyway, and can use them all untrained. 

I'm going for sleight of hand for my last feat to replace concentration, since its handy for both swiping things and the conceal spellcasting skill trick in Complete Scoundrel.

I noticed from a bard optimization thread that since virtuoso spellcasting starts at 2, you can pick 1 virtuoso level, then 1 sublime chord, then the rest in virtuoso to increase the sublime chord progression. Although thats the kind of optimization I dislike. It completely disregards PrCs as the special training of elite organizations in the game world. Jumping from one prestige class to another should not be allowed, in my opinion. Also, virtuoso is a rather silly prestige class. The last thing bards need are to be made sillier.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 16, 2008)

Timely Drought said:


> Do the bluff, knowledge (nobility), and sense motive synergies stack to +6, or do I only get +2 with all three at 5 or more?




Yes, they all stack, and bards are great at diplomacy, so that would be a good route to go.

Just one comment on the feat selections: I've never seen a need for lingering song.  Any bard song that doesn't require concentration to keep up (like most of the combat ones) are FREE actions to maintain after the first standard action.  Melodic Casting lets you cast while performing so...why the need for lingering song?  If all that wasn't enough, many bard songs already linger for 5 rounds anyway.  In combat, that's enough.  Out of combat, how often are you going to need to keep a song's effects up that long but not be able to perform?  You even have subsonics to perform discreetly.


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## Artoomis (Aug 16, 2008)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> ...I've never seen a need for lingering song.  Any bard song that doesn't require concentration to keep up (like most of the combat ones) are FREE actions to maintain after the first standard action.  Melodic Casting lets you cast while performing so...why the need for lingering song?  If all that wasn't enough, many bard songs already linger for 5 rounds anyway.  In combat, that's enough.  Out of combat, how often are you going to need to keep a song's effects up that long but not be able to perform?  You even have subsonics to perform discreetly.




Lingering song is needed depending upon DM's interpretation.  Some rule that you can only have one of the "Inspire" abilities actively maintain at one time.  The rules actually allow for you to start one and maintain it even while starting another, but not everyone sees it that way.

Five rounds is not quite enough for combat (experience talking here).  When you go into "alpha strike" mode and get ready to strike with full buffs up and running, you need more than five rounds.  If, and only if, your DM goes with the rules as written (where you can maintain multiple Inspire abilities), then Lingering Song is not needed.


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## Jack Simth (Aug 16, 2008)

Bard-2/Fighter-1/Bard +2/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-3 (Bard/Ur-Priest)/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge (Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest)-5/Arcane PrC of Choice-4 (Sublime Chord).

This is a spellcasting bard.  Gets both 9th level Arcane (at 19th) and 9th level Divine spells (at 15th or 16th, depending on Wisdom).  Evil and MAD, though, but quite good at mid-high levels (the 15-17 range, when it's got better spell access than the pure casters).  Requires Int (for skill points), Wis (for Ur-Priest casting), and Cha (for Sublime Chord casting).  

A simpler build that still gets 9th level spells, is a lot more bardic, would be a Bard-10/Sublime Chord-10.


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## Achan hiArusa (Aug 16, 2008)

Combat Bard:

Human

Lore Song in the place of Bardic Knowledge (Dungeonscape)
Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn)
Battledancer (PHB II)
Power Attack
Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer)
Martial Weapon Proficiency:  Greatsword

And see if your DM will read the spirit of Song of the Heart instead of the words (it boosts all Bardic song abilities by +1, but it only lists songs from Eberron and the Core book).


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## aboyd (Aug 16, 2008)

Achan hiArusa said:


> And see if your DM will read the spirit of Song of the Heart instead of the words (it boosts all Bardic song abilities by +1, but it only lists songs from Eberron and the Core book).



???  You posted this _after_ he said -- and repeated -- that he wouldn't accept anything from Eberron, Spell Compendium, or anything other than core + Complete.  That doesn't make sense.



taliesin15 said:


> As to Bard spells, I really try to go for all the Sonic-oriented spells, in addition to the usual combo of offense and defense. Modify Memory, Ventriloquism, Whispering Wind, Sculpt Sound, Shout, etc. I find Phantom Steed very useful, as Bards definitely travel a lot.



From this comment I suspect that taliesin15 has genuinely played bards before, not just looked over the writeup in the PHB.  I would second his comments, but from a different angle -- if you're _playing_ a bard, then you might as well actually _use_ bard-specific skills and spells.  Many of the spells that taliesin15 listed are bard-specific.

You have to be into using the songs (or taking abilities that allow you to swap your song abilities for extra spells) and willing to use diplomacy and disguise and such.  Your character is a talker, a singer, a social skill marvel.  If you are not down with that, don't try to change the bard into another class -- just play the other class.

Also, don't forget that in the Complete books, the bard gets a lot of swift & immediate spells.  You should give them _slightly_ more consideration than other bard spells, because swift & immediate spells are only swift & immediate if you _know_ them.  Buying swift & immediate spells on scrolls or in wands automatically makes them standard actions, thus negating a lot of their usefulness.


Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer) makes effects last longer
Lyric Spell (Complete Adventurer) swaps bardic music for extra spells
Extra Music (Complete Adventurer) with Lyric Spell = more spells.
Inspriational Boost (Complete Adventurer) give +1 to your song bonuses
Fly, Swift (Complete Adventurer) gets you flying for 1 round, to escape
Invisibility, Swift (Complete Adventurer) hides you for one round, to escape
Sonic Weapon (Complete Adventurer) +1d6 to any weapon, even causes arrows & bolts to gain the bonus, and it cannot be saved against, and it works for each attack, even if the character gets many per round.
Immediate Assistance (Complete Mage) allows bard to _interrupt_ another player's turn when that player is failing badly, and grant them a re-roll
Deafening Blast (Complete Mage) _permanently_ deafens everyone in a burst radius.  Even if they save, they're still deafened for a round.  This is useful against spellcasters, as it gives them a failure chance when casting.  The only problem?  *The list of bard spells on page 90 says it's 2nd level, while the spell description on page 101 says it's 3rd level.*  There is no errata for this book, so no real indication of what was intended.  Usually with errata they go with the spell description, but not always.  I can see advantages to going either way (higher level, harder DC, lower level, easier access).
Painful Echoes (Complete Mage) causes 1d4 damage/round plus applies the "sickened" state to the target(s) -- while it has a saving throw, they have to re-save _every round_ so the odds are in your favor that this eventually gets enemies in every fight.  Also, like a skill synergy, this spell has a synergy with Deafening Blast, causing the "stunned" state to be applied to the target(s) if they are already under Deafening Blast, which is lovely.
Melodic Casting (Complete Mage) lets you cast spells while concentrating on bardic music effects
Captivating Melody (Complete Mage) increases the save DC of your spells


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## Achan hiArusa (Aug 16, 2008)

aboyd said:


> ???  You posted this _after_ he said -- and repeated -- that he wouldn't accept anything from Eberron, Spell Compendium, or anything other than core + Complete.  That doesn't make sense.




Pfft.  So?  Its a build I came up with and I felt like sharing.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 17, 2008)

Artoomis said:


> Lingering song is needed depending upon DM's interpretation.  Some rule that you can only have one of the "Inspire" abilities actively maintain at one time.  The rules actually allow for you to start one and maintain it even while starting another, but not everyone sees it that way.




Interesting.  I would have thought that the existence of the Combine Songs class feature some Bard PrC's get in CWarrior and CAdventurer would make it pretty clear Bards are at least not intended to maintain multiple songs at once as the norm.  And since when was it required to use multiple songs per encounter in order to win?



Artoomis said:


> Five rounds is not quite enough for combat (experience talking here).



And in my experience, SIX rounds (the round you started counts, too) is almost always enough.



Artoomis said:


> When you go into "alpha strike" mode and get ready to strike with full buffs up and running, you need more than five rounds.



Is this normal?  In all of my games, the occurances of us buffing up like crazy and charging in like a SWAT team are rare, and the DM would not normally present too many situations to make use of that "tactic."  Maybe for scry-buff-teleport, but I've also never actually seen that.  Also, I have to wonder, you say Lingering Song is not needed only by a specific DM ruling, but your example of why it's useful is just as much DM fiat.  Like I said, in my games, those SWAT scenarios seldom exist, so unless the DM allows that, Lingering Song is of no value for that purpose.



Artoomis said:


> If, and only if, your DM goes with the rules as written (where you can maintain multiple Inspire abilities), then Lingering Song is not needed.



I think it's a great feat, just not for most bards.  Most of the other feats on the OP's list solve problems Lingering Song was meant to make less devastating.  For example, Melodic Casting came out after Lingering Song.  before it, your best bet was to start a song, let it linger for the extended time,and start casting.  With MC, you no longer need to stop performing.  Similarly, you could use lingering song to half-arse "covert singing" such as "rob, rob, rob the merchant!" basically doing the performance away from suspicious ears and riding the effect long enough to walk in and do whatever.  With Subsonics feat, that's also not an issue at all any longer.

In conclusion, I think Lingering Song's a great feat to ~30% cover the functions of each of a number of other feats, and thus a good choice for a feat-strapped Bard.  But if you can afford Melodic Casting, Subsonics, and maybe even Somatic Weaponry, it becomes far less important.


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## roguerouge (Aug 17, 2008)

Let me put in a nomination for an emphasis on enchantments and illusions. If your DM can think on his feat, they're very powerful and fun schools of magic, well worth improving with Spell Focus feats. If your DM thinks that a player using one spell to allow the party to avoid an entire combat is not fun for him and the other players, then you might as well drop the whole bard concept, 'cause the same thing's going to go for diplomacy and bluff.


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## taliesin15 (Aug 18, 2008)

roguerogue's suggestion of picking enchantment (no pun intended) and illusion spells is a pretty good one...as a DM I've seen one Bard PC use Illusion spells in conjunction with one of his Bard songs--pretty effective I would imagine for low to mid level encounters

which brings up another topic--I've never run a high level bard, DM'd one (except for NPC Bards), and I'm curious if people have any thoughts on optimizing Bards for higher levels...it doesn't seem to me that high lvl Bards are going to have much luck in enthralling high level monsters and NPCs (they would usually make their saving throws), so I'm curious on people's thoughts on tactics for running them in higher levels

one thing that comes to mind personally is that many higher level campaigns involve the recovery and/or destruction of a Relic of some sort--I could see where the Bard Knowledge of a higher level Bard could help that...along with Legend Lore of course...

...another thing is that Bards probably know more people in the world due to their skills and general design (the most social of all the classes)...


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## aboyd (Aug 18, 2008)

I don't usually hit high levels, so I'm not sure what a level 20 bard can do well.  However, I've seen on other bard optimization threads that the bard's Inspire Courage ability can deliver roughly +1/level -- this includes the feats, spells, and magic items that are appropriate/possible.  So you should expect that a bard at level 20 can deliver +20 to the members of the team -- both to hit and to damage.  Is that worthwhile at high levels?  I don't know.  If a fighter class gets +20 and hits 4 times, that's +80 damage a round, just for the fighter.  Add that up over all the members of the team, and it's a decent addition, isn't it?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 18, 2008)

Just off the top of my head...aren't there some reserve feats for illusion or enchantment spells?  If so, that could be a tasty addition to a bard concentrating in those areas.

And I know what you said about sourcebooks, but if it becomes an option for you now or in a subsequent campaign, consider the DCv1- it has a bunch of "bloodline/heritage" feats available to spontaneous casters based upon having ancestors who were members of magically potent races.


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## blargney the second (Aug 18, 2008)

There's a halfling archer bard in our game, and he's got an ability that I was surprised to find was surprisingly powerful: Dragonfire Inspiration.  He was giving us +4d6 damage on every attack at 8th level.  The neat thing is that you can still choose to regular inspire courage if the monster is immune to that damage type.
-blarg


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## Shin Okada (Aug 19, 2008)

For melee bard, how about taking Devoted Performer and be a Bard/Paladin? This build needs an alignment change and thus you must consult to your DM. But will be very interesting and will give you better than descend BAB and very good saves.


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## roguerouge (Aug 19, 2008)

There are core CG paladins, called Paladins of Freedom: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassFeatures


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## Shin Okada (Aug 19, 2008)

Interesting. But IMHO Bard/Paladin with Devoted Performer feat is better, as the character can add both class levels for determining Bard Songs per day and Smite Evil damage bonus. And the character can freely multiclass between Bard and Paladin thereafter. Also, Immune to Fear is often more useful than Immune to Compulsion. 

By the way, that variant Paladin is a standard class but not core. I do not know which supplement book contains that variant rule.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 20, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> By the way, that variant Paladin is a standard class but not core. I do not know which supplement book contains that variant rule.




Unearthed Arcana


For high level Bards, I'm not sure what th most devastating thing to do is.  They should have enough UMD to use almost any magic item they find, which is darned handy.  Unless the DM "does something" about Diplomacy, it's just as great for ending combats as it was at level 3.  The fascinate bardic music has a DC of (perform check), and thus never stops being potent, if not actually becoming more potent.


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## aboyd (Aug 20, 2008)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Unless the DM "does something" about Diplomacy, it's just as great for ending combats as it was at level 3.



Meaning, not great at all?



			
				srd said:
			
		

> Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (*10 consecutive full-round actions*). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a *-10 penalty* on the check.



Please explain how you've turned this into a great option for ending combat.  I would like to try it.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 20, 2008)

I haven't.  Many others have threads on diplomacy optimization, but the fact that the DCs are flat and you can easily (as a bard, with all the skills on your list) get a +6 just from synergy bonuses makes it pretty straightforward as to why even with a -10 penalty, rushed diplomacy is laughably easy from middle levels on.  If you REALLY want it twinked high as possible, you can be a half-elf with skill focus and whatever the name of the +2/+2 feat for diplomacy is and reliably end combats on round one starting at ~level 3, or so I've been told.


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## aboyd (Aug 20, 2008)

Hmm.  I think you're right, although it's a little exaggerated.  Using PCGen, I was able to create a level 3 bard that had a +23 to diplomacy.  To do it, I took:

+6 to diplomacy (max)
+5 to bluff (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+5 to knowledge/nobility (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+5 to sense motive (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+3 to diplomacy from skill focus feat
+2 to diplomacy from negotiator feat
+4 to diplomacy from charisma
+2 to diplomacy from half-elf race

To make a combatant go from fighting to "merely" taunting you and demanding that you leave is a DC 25 check if you want to do it one round.

With a +13 (23 - 10 for rushing diplomacy), a roll of 12 or better would succeed.

To make a combatant go from fighting to feeling neutral about you, so that you are free to come & go without danger is a DC 35.  You couldn't roll it at level 3, although natural 20s always work, so that'd be the one shot.

So, hmm.  To me, that's not really awesome, but it is better than I expected.  At level 8, you'd have another 6 points in it (5 from leveling up and maxing the pips in Diplomacy as you go, plus 1 extra assuming you put both stat points into charisma).  At that point, it starts being useful.  You'd only need a 6 or more to "calm" combatants down to merely shouting obscenities at each other, and with a 16 you could make them feel neutral about the whole thing.

I looked for spells that would buff the diplomacy, but only found the charisma buff.  Complete Mage has Catsfeet, which gives a +5 to some skills, but not Diplomacy.  If I could find a lengthy, sizable buff to Diplomacy, I think I could really have a quality "broken" build.


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## Shin Okada (Aug 20, 2008)

The main problem of that "tactics" is, NPC's behavior is basically under control of the DM. He can freely decide Diplomacy check is simply impossible, or that try takes really much time as the NPC is so determined, or just give whatever amount of circumstance penalty.


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## Legildur (Aug 20, 2008)

aboyd said:


> ...although natural 20s always work, so that'd be the one shot.



Not for skills checks - only attack rolls and saving throws.


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## roguerouge (Aug 20, 2008)

Shin, just to clarify, I brought up the CG paladin variant to point out that there need not be an alignment clash between the two classes for the purposes of Devoted Performer.


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## roguerouge (Aug 20, 2008)

Actually, Shin, a close second in the Diplomacy problem hierarchy is the other players at the table. It's usually the barbarian or the evoker that ruins it for you.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 21, 2008)

aboyd said:


> So, hmm.  To me, that's not really awesome, but it is better than I expected.  At level 8, you'd have another 6 points in it (5 from leveling up and maxing the pips in Diplomacy as you go, plus 1 extra assuming you put both stat points into charisma).  At that point, it starts being useful.  You'd only need a 6 or more to "calm" combatants down to merely shouting obscenities at each other, and with a 16 you could make them feel neutral about the whole thing.
> 
> I looked for spells that would buff the diplomacy, but only found the charisma buff.  Complete Mage has Catsfeet, which gives a +5 to some skills, but not Diplomacy.  If I could find a lengthy, sizable buff to Diplomacy, I think I could really have a quality "broken" build.




Ok, since you went to all that trouble, I may as well contribute more to the "build" that I can think of.  First off, there are some dirty tricks.  Like dipping Marshal 1.  Choose Motivate Charisma as your minor aura, and now you're adding that +4 cha twice.  Marshal also gives you skill focus: diplomacy for free, leaving a feat open.  Coincidentally, I think Races of Destiny has a Half-Elf feat to gain +3 from synergy bonuses instead of +2.  That's another +3 bonus o Diplomacy, from your three synergies.  It's not available at level 3, but later on you can add the Voice of the Dragon spell from spell compendium.

Now, I don't think going to such extreme lengths i ever a good or fun idea, just in general.  If you abuse anything too much, you're just asking for the DM to step in and do as Shin says.  Not to mention the whole classes of monsters already immune.  And ultimately, as roguerouge points out, the other players will likely want to actually have fights.


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## roguerouge (Aug 21, 2008)

aboyd said:


> Hmm.  I think you're right, although it's a little exaggerated.  Using PCGen, I was able to create a level 3 bard that had a +23 to diplomacy.  To do it, I took:
> 
> +6 to diplomacy (max)
> +5 to bluff (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
> ...




Think about it this way. You can get much the same effect of stopping combat cold at level three with a wizard's web spell. And at level 9, when the bard's got a 20 percent chance to move people from hostile to neutral in one round, the cleric is _raising the dead_ and the wizard's teleporting and polymorphing people. 

I'd hardly call anything the bard's doing broken compared to that, especially since to get the results you're getting, the bard's taking two feats and a suboptimal race to become a one-trick pony.


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## roguerouge (Aug 21, 2008)

aboyd said:


> Hmm.  I think you're right, although it's a little exaggerated.  Using PCGen, I was able to create a level 3 bard that had a +23 to diplomacy.  To do it, I took:
> 
> +6 to diplomacy (max)
> +5 to bluff (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
> ...




Think about it this way. You can get much the same effect of stopping combat cold at level three with a wizard's web spell. And at level 9, when the bard's got a 20 percent chance to move people from hostile to neutral in one round, the cleric is _raising the dead_ and the wizard's teleporting and polymorphing people. 

I'd hardly call anything the bard's doing broken compared to that, especially since to get the results you're getting, the bard's taking two feats and a suboptimal race to become a one-trick pony.


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## green slime (Aug 21, 2008)

*Re: Diplomacy*

While the ability to turn people from "hostile" to "neutral" may be useful many times, it must be remembered that there will also be times when there are other motivations behind the antagonists' actions.

The oath-bound loyal defender of the King's chamber, aware of the intruder's intentions, will not stand aside, even if he sympathises with the motives of the intruders.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 23, 2008)

For giggles...

I'm planning on running a Sorc/ some kind of warrior in a very restricted 3.5 campaign (Core + first 4 Completes, no Psi, no PrCls, only PHB classes + Favored Soul).

One thing I considered was Sorc/Bard.  Here's why- the PC in question is taking Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath (CompArc) at first level.  DH requires Sorc1 as a prereq.  As Sorc/Bard, the PC would have a lot of spell versatility, could cast certain spells in armor, and so forth.  Ultimately, though, I passed on the Bard because I want the PC to be more of a warrior.

Still, once you take that Sorc level, you can apply Draconic Breath to _any _arcane spell, so he could learn all the utility spells he wanted, and still be able to drop a cone o' death on his foes at a moment's notice.


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## Jack Simth (Aug 23, 2008)

aboyd said:


> Meaning, not great at all?
> 
> 
> Please explain how you've turned this into a great option for ending combat.  I would like to try it.



By cheesing it up.

For a simple build, the Half-Elf Bard, with an 18 Charisma, max ranks, Negotiator and Skill Focus (Diplomacy), plus all the synergy the bard can find, gets:
+2 (Half Elf), +6 (ranks), +2 (Negotiator), +3 (Skill Focus (Diplomacy)), +4 (Charisma), +2 (bluff synergy), +2 (Knoweledge(Nobility and Royalty) synergy), +2 (Sense Motive Synergy) = +23.  -10 for Rushed means a net +13.  That's Hostile to Unfriendly (DC 20) on a roll of 7 - "Will take risks to hurt you" and "Attack, interfere, berate, flee" to "Wishes you ill" and "Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insult".  On a roll of 12, that's Hostile to Indifferent (DC 25) - changing your ex-opponent from a place where they're supposed to be attacking you, to "Doesn’t much care" and "Socially expected interaction"

There's also ways to get more bonuses out of it when magic items become available - a Cloak of Charisma +6 (for +3), Circlet of Persuasion (+3 Competence), Stone of Good Luck (+1 luck), and so on.  There's even more stuff available if you're willing to take the time to burn spells on it (for instance, both Heroism and Greater Heroism give a Morale bonus to skill checks - +2 and +4, respectively - and Heroism is 10 minutes/level, and conveniently a Bard spell to boot).  If you want to branch outside of Core, and are okay with multiclassing, a single level in Psion (Telepath) can net you a Friendly Psicrystal - good for another +3, and as a Psion(Telepath) has all the same class skills you want for maximizing Charisma, you can put that one in during your first 3 levels.  There's more options, as well.


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## Kishin (Aug 25, 2008)

No melee Bard should leave home with out a crystal echoblade from the MiC with the harmonizing (also MiC) weapon modifier on it and Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn).

The trick to Bards? Find stuff that lets you add charisma to things. Then optimize Inspire Courage. Then melt face.


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## Damien (Sep 23, 2008)

> We're using 30 point buy, so I'm thinking of the following:
> 
> Ability Scores
> Str 10
> ...




If you had access to the PHB2, I'd suggest replacing Bardic Lore with Bardic Knack, which would significantly augment your non-core skill group. It would also almost justify taking the Jack of All Trades feat (which, contrary to what you said, only gives you a flat 1/2 virtual rank in skills). 

For your feat selection: 
1. Jack of All Trades - useful with Bardic Knack primarily; it basically lets you use Trained-only skills untrained. The problem here is that most Trained Only skills are generally either of little use (e.g., Profession), or require you to pump a lot of ranks into them to make them worthwhile (e.g., Disable Device, Use Magic Device). It is most useful for the large Knowledge skill group, IMO, but without Bardic Knack to improve those skills above the base level, your bonuses here won't be enough to make your use of knowledge skills at all reliable. Even with Bardic Knack, you can probably get by without this feat by simply putting one rank into whichever knowledge or other Trained-Only skills you want. 

2. Lingering Song - As mentioned by others, a decent feat, but with Melodic Casting it's probably redundant. 

3. Versatile Performer - I could see taking this for its flavor, or perhaps as a prerequisite for a prestige class or something, but on its own from a game mechanics perspective, it is superfluous. 

4. Disguise Spell - Between the Melodic Casting feat and the Conceal Casting skill trick from Complete Scoundrel, this feat is not needed. 

5. Subsonics - it sounds interesting, but leaves a lot of room for DM rulings; just what, for example, is your bardic music's range when using subsonics? Usually for bardic music it is "within earshot," but how would that apply here? In combination with Disguise Spell, it's also a DM's call whether the verbal components of disguised spells would be rendered subsonic through this feat. You should get these issues straightened out before taking this feat. 

Here's some other feats I'd consider: 

Melodic Casting - pretty much indispensable for a bard. 
Spell Focus (enchantment) - if you plan on focusing on enchantment spells, anything to boost the DC is worthwhile, especially with a base Charisma of only 16. 
Captivating Melody - lets you use bardic music slots to boost the DC of enchantment/illusion spells (it's in Complete Mage)
Fey Heritage feats (in Complete Mage) - these feats dovetail nicely with bards, since they produce enchantment-related effects. 

You might also consider dipping a single level of Mindbender (in Complete Arcane). For that one level, you get an incredible benefit: 100-foot telepathy with any intelligent creature! With this you can communicate tactics to your allies while performing or engaging in diplomacy, provide hidden directions to charmed creatures--and of course, communicate with any intelligent creature without the need for knowing its language. You can qualify for Mindbender pretty early, though you'd need to pump up Intimidate, which is a cross-class skill for bards. If you're willing to give up a level of spellcasting (which I probably wouldn't), you can go 2nd level in Mindbender, and get the ability to do suggestion telepathically 1/day, with a DC of 13 + Charisma bonus. You could boost this by +2 with the Ability Focus feat, but it's not worth it IMO to use a feat to power a single 1/day ability, no matter how good.


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