# Pathfinder Review: Pathfinder Battles - Rise of the Runelords Miniatures



## Steel_Wind (Dec 9, 2012)

*Pathfinder Review: Pathfinder Battles: Rise of the Runelords Miniatures*

This past January, we finally received the first of Wizkids' _Pathfinder Battles_ pre-painted miniatures sets. _Heroes and Monsters_ was for the most part warmly received and was nominated for an ENNie award. My review was -- for the most part -- quite positive.

It's been over seven months since the release of _Heroes and Monsters_ and a few issues have surfaced over time. Before we look forward to _Rise of the Runelords_, let's look back at the issues which have arisen since the last major set in the _Pathfinder Battles_ miniature line.

Firstly, it was made very clear to me by both Paizo and Wizkids that they took my comments about what I (and others) perceived was excessive packaging to heart. Privately, Wizkids seemed to go out of their way to express sincere regret at the Big Pile 'o Packaging that I showed off in my review of the minis here on ENWorld. 

To their credit, Wizkids did not even try to make excuses concerning the reason for the surplus of packaging. And to be fair to Wizkids, after I published my review of _Heroes & Monsters_ here on ENWorld, I discovered that Wizkids had some good reasons for their packaging choices. Chiefly, the need to package one small mini per "booster" was a packaging requirement dictated by the overall size of the 40 mini set. Paizo's and Wizkids' goal was to do all they could to ensure that a customer purchasing one factory sealed case of _Heroes and Monsters_ was 90+% likely to receive a complete set. The only way that randomization math worked for Wizkids required that the _Heroes and Monsters_ set be individually packaged. If a customer wants to buy a complete set in one case -- lots of boxes -- little boxes (not made of_ ticky tacky_) was a practical necessity. 

On reflection, that IS a pretty good reason to have all those little boxes in one case.

The other contributor to the Big Pile o' Packaging was the eggshell style inserted plastic holder which suspended the mini in each of the little boxes. By the time all of the little boxes were opened up and the eggshell plastic holders inside were pulled out, the remains of this packaging contributed mightily to the pile. 

Turns out that Wizkids wasn't kidding about the necessity of that packaging, either. While my main experience with pre-painted plastic had hitherto been with WotC's nigh _indestructible_ D&D miniature line, Wizkids' minis are a very different product. WotC sacrificed details on the sculpt of their minis in exchange for a bendable plastic which is VERY tough to break through casual mishandling. You might bend your mini into a shape it does not readily unbend itself from -- but you pretty much have to TRY to deliberately break a D&D mini in order to do so. 

Not so with Wizkids _Heroes and Monsters_ minis. _H&M_ used a different calibration to the plastic that permitted them to hold much finer detail when molded when compared to the D&D mini line. The downside to this was that the plastic was brittle and more apt to break during shipping and even from transportation to and from the game. 

I don't know what your experience has been with _Heroes and Monsters_ over the past six months or so, but I have found that I have broken two of my minis just from chucking them haphazardly in a box for transport to and from the game. Turns out, you should *not* do that with such unrestrained zeal when it comes to _Heroes & Monsters_ minis. If you bang 'em around inside the box -- they can break. Not easily perhaps -- but it's not very _hard_ to do, either.

As a consequence, all that plastic eggshell packaging was there for a very good reason and the fact that my minis were intact out of the box was precisely due to all that eggshell packaging. So while the Big Pile O' Packaging was nothing to be proud of, it turns out that there were good reasons for it to be there. 

Lastly, the one feature that the _Heroes & Monsters_ set lacked was the use of transparent and semi-transparent plastics. We all saw how the D&D mini line was greatly improved by the addition of those features to the minis over the course of time. The lack of it in the _Heroes & Monsters_ set was a notable absence from the otherwise excellent quality of the sculpts. As Erik Mona explained in a Friday blog, Wizkids would be using transparency in the _Rise of the Runelords_ set - we'd just have to wait for it.

*Rise of the Runelords *

Next week's Gencon will be the release of the second collectible set in Wizkids licensed miniature line, _Rise of the Runelords_. Like nearly all things Paizo this summer, the product is principally about cross-supporting the release of the _Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition_ we looked at yesterday. 

Like many of you, I've watched Erik Mona's Friday blog with great interest over the past months as he has previewed the pre-painted prototypes of the _RotRL_ minis. The pictures every week had me greatly intrigued over the forthcoming set. At long last, the Paizo community was about to receive something that we've been asking for since 2005 -- a miniature set release intended to support and enable Game Masters to run an Adventure Path!

Even before Paizo created _Pathfinder Adventure Path_ in 2007, the question of cross-support for Paizo's Adventure Paths had been frequently raised by subscribers and readers of _Dungeon _Magazine. The calls for cross-support were particularly loud during the currency of the _Age of Worms_ Adventure Path in 2005/2006, when the dearth of appropriate minis for so many of the featured encounters in that AP was abundantly clear. At the time, WotC's miniature line was never more popular, cheaper or more plentiful, with 4 sets a year being released. Just *six* of those 60 minis per set dedicated towards the unique encounter needs of Paizo's _Dungeon _Adventure Path requirements in a year would have made a great difference at the time.

We all know it didn't happen. While we can debate the reasons why that did not come to pass, on reflection, it's easy to see what a missed opportunity that was. WotC minis in 2005 were of very good quality -- and above all -- they were very cheap. I'm sure that Paizo must have wondered how well their Adventure Paths in _Dungeon_ would have been received had there been more robust support for the APs from the _D&D Miniatures_ line. 

With Wizkids _Pathfinder Battles_ miniature line, Paizo now has the ability to support their Adventure Paths with miniatures specifically created to support their flagship product. While _Heroes & Monsters_ provided a more generic set of monsters, the sculpts in _Rise of the Runelords_ were selected by Erik Mona to permit a GM to run RotRL with a set of minis that more closely matches all of the encounters. Even drawing upon a significant collection of D&D minis to supplement those featured in _Heroes & Monsters_, the selection present in the new _RotRL_ miniature set does not permit a GM to run every single encounter with a mini representing every actual encounter. However, with a large enough collection, you can come close to that goal.

*Changes to the Product Line: Wizkids Gets it Right in RotRL*

There are a number of changes to Pathfinder _Battles: Rise of the Runelords_, both obvious and subtle. It's the subtle change that is not immediately obvious from looking at the minis on Paizo's Friday blog which is the most important. 

Firstly, the size of the set has changed, so that the complete set of _Rise of the Runelords_ contains 65 figures, with 60 in the main set, plus 4 Huge minis and one Gargantuan 4x4 Rune Giant. This change in the set size has also permitted Wizkids to change the packaging so that each booster now contains 1 large and 3 medium/small minis. This, in turn, take a big bite out of the Big Pile O' Packaging refuse. Due to Wizkids' packaging and randomization choices, you are still overwhelmingly likely to get a complete set of the Large/Medium minis by purchasing a factory sealed case. So that's a plus.

Secondly, the lack of transparent plastic in _Heroes & Monsters_ has been remedied. Transparency is on display throughout the _RotRL_ line and the results look great. Sadly, I did not receive a Forgefiend mini in the sample of minis Wizkids provided to me for this review, but the prototype of the miniature in which is it used looks outstanding.

*PFB: RotRL -- The Plastic is NOT the Same*

Lastly, and -- _most importantly_ -- Wizkids has changed the calibration of the plastic used in the _Rise of the Runelords_ set. You can't tell this from looking at the minis, but the moment that the minis are in your hand, you can feel the difference. While still not as flexible as the softer plastic in the D&D mini line, the plastic used in _Rise of the Runelords_ is *nowhere near as rigid* as Wizkids has used in the past. With _Heroes and Monsters_, the rigidity of the plastic was obvious and the minis even "clinked" in your hand when you picked up several at once. That aspect of the minis is gone and the minis now have some give throughout each figure. The sacrifice in rigidity does not appear to have impacted the quality of the minis at all and the sculpts and detail are still outstanding.

It is ironic that with the old rigid plastic in the _Heroes & Monsters_ line, I received all my minis in perfect shape out of the box, whereas with the new _Rise of the Runelords_ minis, an arm ended up being broken on one of the miniatures in transit. This was just bad luck due to the fact that the large Stone Giant in the booster had come free of its anchor in the eggshell plastic. Presumably, during transit, the large Stone Giant struck the ghoul's arm with enough force that it broke off. 

Despite this bad luck, I am certain that the overall ability of this set to withstand breakage during normal use and transport has been greatly improved. Wizkids gets a Big Thumbs Up for this change in the set.

*Quality of the Review Figures *

I received a selection of miniatures in the box from Wizkids for this sneak-peak review. I received the Rune Giant, 2 Huge boosters which contained the "Treachery Demon" (read: _Glabrezu_) and the Karzoug Statue. I also received 8 of the normal boosters. I initially opened the Rune Giant and both huge minis as well as two random boosters when I first received these review minis back in June. I left the opening of the remaining 6 boosters for today's unboxing video.

During a discussion with Justin Ziran, President of Wizkids, Ziran was justifiably proud of the quality of the minis in the new line. "These may be the best pre-painted minis we've every made – the Rune Giant being the shining example. I have worked in the industry for 10 years and have been playing D&D for 15 and I can't remember a set that looked so nice. When discussing the line internally (before we went to Paizo with the idea) - I thought it would be best to treat the line as a "super premium" line. As such, we raised the bar significantly. We have to charge for that quality, but in hindsight it was the right decision."

I don't disagree with Ziran's assessment of the quality and agree that these minis are the most attractive pre-painted minis for an RPG yet manufactured. However, I do disagree that the Rune Giant is the "shining example", or at least, I disagree that the Rune Giant somehow exceeds expectations. Don't get me wrong, the Rune Giant is an awesome mini in terms of its size, sculpt, and painting detail. It is absolutely top-shelf. However, it is also absolutely top-shelf in terms of its cost, too. So while it's awesome -- I would argue that it _should_ be awesome for the price tag. The same can be said for the "Treachery Demon" (Glabrezu) or the other huge minis. The Glabrezu is also an awesome mini, but for the price tag for a Huge mini in the _Rise of the Runelords_ mini line, it _should_ be. Sure, it meets my expectations -- but at that price, my expectations are pretty high to start with.

What impressed me more than the Rune Giant or the Glabrezu is the quality of the normal Large and Medium figures. In particular, one of the common minis I randomly received - the humble Lamia Kuchrima, stands out. This is the mini that impressed the hell out of me as my expectations are much lower for a common mini than they are for a premium figure like the Rune Giant. Wizkids absolutely knocked this common mini out of the park. Featuring the use of semi-transparent plastic on its base, the figure is dramatically posed with outstretched wings; it is a great sculpt with an excellent paint job. The new calibration of the plastic used on this set will also serve to ensure the wings and wing-feathers are far more likely to remain attached over the course of time, too. Simply put, this is an A+ execution on this common miniature. It looks - and feels - like a _great_ rare mini.

For those who are interested in taking a look at the detail of more of the review minis, you can watch my unboxing & review video. [Warning: it's a rather lengthy video weighing in at about 45 minutes or so.]

*The Downside to a "Super-Premium" Miniature Line: The Price*

With _Pathfinder Battles: Rise of the Runelords_, Wizkids has provided a large set of miniatures that offers excellent quality with some truly unique and dramatic figures. All of this is great and well appreciated. The problem with the set -- the only problem -- is the price tag which attaches to all of this. Simply put, these are damned expensive minis to purchase.

Looking at the cost of these miniatures from one of the cheapest sources available, online discount retailer Miniature Market, the cost works out as follows:

Case of Standard Boosters (32): $330 for 128 minis (90%+ for complete set of 60)
Case of Huge Minis (6): $102
Rune Giant: $18
Shipping and Handling within USA: Free
*Total cost: $450*

No matter which way you cut it, that's a *lot* of money for a set of miniatures. Even when buying at a discount online reseller, the per mini cost of the base set works out to $2.58 per figure, with each of the Huge minis at $17 and the Rune Giant at $18 each. That ain't cheap folks. Though to be fair, it's actually less than the cost per figure of the 12 markedly inferior minis included in a box of _Dungeon Command_ at your local FLGS. It's the size of the set and the extra minis necessary to purchase a complete set of 60 that drives up the overall cost for _Pathfinder Battles: Rise of the Runelords_.

If that is a cost that you are willing to pay, then you should buy these minis with confidence, knowing that the quality of the pre-painted minis is as good as it gets in the hobby games trade. But if that cost is not something you are able to afford, you may want to buy smaller amounts of these minis in booster form, or by the brick, in the singles aftermarket -- or not at all. As always, the final decision on making any purchase is your own.

Wizkids and Paizo are sensitive to the cost and the next set of miniatures in the _Pathfinder Battles_ miniature line will be smaller at 55 minis and will not feature Huge minis as part of the main set (presumably, a Huge mini will still be offered as a case incentive in a non-random box). If the quality of _Pathfinder Battles: Shattered Star_ is as good as those on display in _Rise of the Runelords_, I do not anticipate any complaints about the next set either -- other than the cost.

Wizkids has addressed every issue with their minis that has arisen to date with the _Rise of the Runelords_ miniatures set. Accordingly, whether or not _Pathfinder Battles: Rise of the Runelords_ will succeed in the marketplace is now _wholly_ dependent upon the cost of the miniatures. At this stage -- the cost of the product is the only question mark left. 

_Pathfinder Battles: Rise of the Runelords_ debuts this *Thursday, August 16 at Gencon Indy*.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSNmmH4pDZI[/ame]​


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## Liquidsabre (Aug 12, 2012)

Nice review Steel, well covered.

The brilliance is that Paizo has their market covered across all price points and preferences for miniatures: Reaper minis for painting, Wizkids for qality pre-paints at cost, and their line of affordable pawns (card stock stand ups) for very low cost. So whatever your price point or preference you can buy in and play.


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## Feeroper (Aug 13, 2012)

These minis look much nicer than the H&M ones in my opinion. Ill probobly pick some up, but that cost is pretty high. Im glad to have boosters with a few more minis than 1 this time though. 

Also great to hear about the plastic change, as that was a bit of an issue with me with H&M. 

Although I definetly cant afford the big shebang, Ill happily pick up a booster or 2, and otherwise pick from the aftermarket. I am quite pleased though that they are putting out the cardstock pawns as I thought those were brilliant in the Beginners Box. A great cost effective way to get a pretty representation of the mpnsters on the mat, and not having to use different minis for them if you dont have the right ones.


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## Jools (Aug 13, 2012)

Did you just compare the price of Paizo minis from an online discounter with Dungeon Command's minis from a high street shop? It sounds like you did. It isn't even an appropriate comparison as there's a lot more in the DC box than just minis. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of both Paizo  and Wizkids, I'm not such a big fan of biased reviews though. DC is a great game at a great price.

Edit: sorry to come across as a confrontational ass there, the Internet does that to you sometimes. It's a good review, just that small part seemed off. Did you take any pics of your preview minis? The video doesn't do them full justice.


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't normally reply in my reviews. People should be allowed to say what they want and to disagree with me if they care to.  I get to write the Official Review -- you just get to write the comments.  You should be free to at least do that unmolested.

But that's going too far. The suggested MSRP of _Dungeon Command_ is $39.99, that's for 12 minis, some cardboard counters, a small deck of cards and 4 tiles.  There IS NO MSRP on _Pathfinder Battles_. At all.

If you were to compare deep discount to discount, from the most favorable online source I can find ($25.99), you would have a per mini cost of about $2.18 for each _Dungeon Command's_ minis vs. $2.58 for _PFB: RotRL_ -- but that is ONLY without including the cost of shipping. After you add in shipping (free for PFB, NOT free for DC) as soon as the shipping and handling costs goes above $5.00, the price of DC per mini is now more than PFB: RotRL. 

Of course, I didn't say that -- I noted simply that the cost of a deep discount set would be cheaper on a per mini basis than from a FLGS.  If the price you buy _Dungeon Command_ at it $31.00 or higher? Than that statement is true. I bought my copy of DC for $31.99, by the way - in a FLGS. It was far and away the cheapest price in my city. The other stores were charging $37.99-$39.99. If you bought DC for 31.99, shipping included?  You did VERY well.

I am well aware of _Dungeon Command's_ virtues as a game. I have a copy of each and I have reported on my experiences with it here on the first thread on ENWorld discussing the actual play demo of the game here.  My posts praising the game are located here and here.

I am certainly NOT going to praise _Dungeon Command's_ miniatures however. They are utilitarian sculpts, not a single one of which is original -- all of which have been seen before -- either as part of the D&D mini line or as unpainted plastic minis in the D&D boardgame line. Every one of them has a utilitarian paint job and there is not a single shade stroke or wash in evidence anywhere - on _*any*_ of them.  Compared to Wizkids product -- they are markedly and OBJECTIVELY inferior miniatures, in every way that a miniature can be inferior.


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## Sammael (Aug 13, 2012)

Any chance of in-hand photos? Paizo's stock photos are generally so small that hardly any detail is visible.

I haven't bought any minis in several years, but some of these look nice enough for me to pick up as singles.


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## Skeld (Aug 13, 2012)

Good review, although I'm waaay more concerned about the condition the miniatures arrive in than the packaging they use.  As soon as minis start showing up broken, I become a very sad customer (especially at those prices).

-Skeld


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 13, 2012)

I tried to do photos of the minis in a light box. The problem was that I used a Microsoft 1080p Studio Cam to take the shots and as soon as the light threshold seemed to get bright enough off an indirect reflective surface in the box to eliminate shadows, there was a marked "venetian blind" banding effect on the resulting images on the camera. It did not look like interlacing as such, but whatever it was -- it was bad.

I am sure that someone more technically inclined is able to explain the technical reason for the "venetian blind" effect I experienced with the camera, but explicable or not -- they were not usable at all. 

The video was not assisted by my not placing a hand in front of the mini as I brought the mini near the camera so as to block out the rune giant -- which I think the camera was auto-focussing on. My apologies for this coming to my attention only late in the day. I read, write and I can competently podcast. I have not done video production before.

I'll do better next time. 

The Pathfinder-minis site has decent photos of all of the minis which are failrly representative of the paints and sculpts of all of the minis I saw, with the exception of Seoni (stencil masks for her tattoos are missing - though I don't think the tattoo effects were all that exceptional). The rest of the pictures posted on the site are decent shots which appear to be for the most part, fair representations of what I saw -- although it did appear to me that there were some added washing /shading effects on some of the minis I received. Subtle additions, to be sure.


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## Jools (Aug 16, 2012)

Steelwind, why didn't you compare like with like? I wasn't entirely sure if you'd made an inappropriate comparison or not when I wrote the above, that's why I phrased it as a question. The way you wrote it sure made it sound like you had though. As a result of your response I looked it up though, and much to my surprise Dungeon Command is available from the very same discounter you quoted the Paizo mini prices from. For some reason though, when it came to listing the price of the WOTC product for comparison, you decided to switch to the full, store bought RRP. Doesn't that seem a tad suspect?


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## Jools (Aug 18, 2012)

Sorry to bang on about this, I'm not usually the message board attack dog type, but I don't think you did Steelwind. Your answers a bit all over the shop really. You appear to be saying that because Dungeon Command's price isn't high enough allow free p&p from miniature market you had to compare it with the full RRP. But that's neither here nor there really. What if you are buying something else with Dungeon Command to allow free p&p? What if (like most people) you are buying Paizo minis but not an entire set and aren't eligible for p&p? Heck, what if your actually buying both and getting free p&p for both?

 It seems a tad odd that you didn't just compare like with like. Sorry to put this one part of your otherwise really good review under such scrutiny, but when your writing as you put it "the official review" it's important not to do the readers a disservice.


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 18, 2012)

Jools,

Shipping and handling on _Dungeon Command _from Miniature Market is $8.65. The math remains true from the review and post #6 explained it.  And given your last post, you clearly understood that perfectly well. Apparently you wanted me to make assumptions which are *different *than what the review discussed -- and thereby take the entire discussion out of the context that appeared in the review.  

When I am discussing the cost of purchasing a set, I am not going to discuss the cost as if one was buying that set a single-booster-at-a-time.  No, not even if you would prefer that I did.

As for "not usually being an attack dog" and "seems a tad odd"... the passive aggressive stuff I can do without. It was an attack then -- it's an attack now. You are perfectly entitled to attack me all you would like. Take as much as you want; *fill your boots.*

The review was fair and I stand by it.  You are entitled to another opinion.

(And this is why I don't think it is wise to reply to my own reviews. I should follow my own advice.)


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## Nikmal (Aug 21, 2012)

Jools said:


> Sorry to bang on about this, I'm not usually the message board attack dog type, but I don't think you did Steelwind. Your answers a bit all over the shop really. You appear to be saying that because Dungeon Command's price isn't high enough allow free p&p from miniature market you had to compare it with the full RRP. But that's neither here nor there really. What if you are buying something else with Dungeon Command to allow free p&p? What if (like most people) you are buying Paizo minis but not an entire set and aren't eligible for p&p? Heck, what if your actually buying both and getting free p&p for both?
> 
> It seems a tad odd that you didn't just compare like with like. Sorry to put this one part of your otherwise really good review under such scrutiny, but when your writing as you put it "the official review" it's important not to do the readers a disservice.




Having both sets of Dungeon Command and the Heroes and Monsters Set for Pathfinder and a preorder of the Rise of the Runelords case, I can safely tell you that Dungeon Command is a terrible comparison of the Pathfinder Mini's.

 Dungeon Command is terribly presented and to be honest I would only ever buy another set in the future to fill some creatures out that I don't have. They are just more of a marker to present a creature and that is all. They are not greatly painted and the molds are being re-used by WotC. Why they could not come up with at least ONE new mold in the line per set is beyond me and I think a huge mistake. Dungeon command is expensive even if you play the game, if you don't play the in box game that is included with it (Which I don't) then they are ridiculously expensive! The paint jobs suck for them as well.. not a single wash, no dry brushing, just some colors on a mini. Not really well done at all. 

Heroes and Monsters are fantastic and one I am proud to own. In fact when I go to events and the like everyone loves them and wants to use them for their games if I am not. Rise of the Runelords I am looking forward to and can hardly wait and knowing that I will be getting them in two days from the FLGS I preordered them from makes me cringe as I feel like a kid on Christmas eve and can't wait to open my presents. 

The cost of each mini is not overly bad from Rise of the Runelords set IMHO and if you ask me if there is a discount involved take advantage of it and get an even lower price. For the paint jobs on these mini's I think the per mini cost is MORE then worth it as it saves me lots of time and they are fantastic!!


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## Herschel (Aug 23, 2012)

If I compare them to the last DDM set then Rise of the Runelords set generally pales in comparison. The cost/mini is stretching even higher with only 4 minis for $18.99 that doesn't include a Huge (and the price for the random purchase of H&M monsters was awful) and in the previous DDM sets with a visible Large (and often two larges) and one more mini was $4.00 less. 

And that doesn't account for aesthetics, which are not only subjective but each set has better and not-so-good minis. But in the end I look at the value as well as the minis. In order to receive the same number of minis with the new Pathfinder set compared to the last set of WotC miniatures WotC $24.99 for a booster while to get the same number of minis in this set it would be $38.97 - $40.97. That's quite a price difference.

I've ordered a few singles post GenCon after checking out a few there, and the plastic is better, but the value is simply not there in comparision if trying to pick up a whole set.


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## Nikmal (Aug 24, 2012)

Herschel said:


> If I compare them to the last DDM set then Rise of the Runelords set generally pales in comparison. The cost/mini is stretching even higher with only 4 minis for $18.99 that doesn't include a Huge (and the price for the random purchase of H&M monsters was awful) and in the previous DDM sets with a visible Large (and often two larges) and one more mini was $4.00 less.
> 
> And that doesn't account for aesthetics, which are not only subjective but each set has better and not-so-good minis. But in the end I look at the value as well as the minis. In order to receive the same number of minis with the new Pathfinder set compared to the last set of WotC miniatures WotC $24.99 for a booster while to get the same number of minis in this set it would be $38.97 - $40.97. That's quite a price difference.
> 
> I've ordered a few singles post GenCon after checking out a few there, and the plastic is better, but the value is simply not there in comparision if trying to pick up a whole set.



Heschel comparing DDM to the Pathfiinder Mini's is not even close to reasonable but everyone tries to do it regardless. There is a reason DDM went out of business. They could NOT keep up with the cost any more and the sales were waning. The quality was certainly NOT there for DDM either. I own quite a few DDM mini's (about 6 sets worth (full)) and I am more impressed with the Pathfinder Mini's. 

The cost per mini is a little more but not so much that I would not still buy them myself. Complaining about the cost per mini while comparing it to DDM is not a fair comparison. It would be like comparing a computer from the year 2000 to one of today. While yes the one from 2000 might still work and get on the internet the computer from today makes those look tragically inadequate. 

Cost needs to be more or they would not be able to produce them at a profit without that being what it is. DDM they were going to loose money if they kept that price going. Trust me they were increasing the cost with each set too... that means that the cost would have come in line eventually with what the Pathfinder minis are today or a close proximity.


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## Herschel (Aug 24, 2012)

Nikmal said:


> Heschel comparing DDM to the Pathfiinder Mini's is not even close to reasonable but everyone tries to do it regardless. There is a reason DDM went out of business. They could NOT keep up with the cost any more and the sales were waning. The quality was certainly NOT there for DDM either. I own quite a few DDM mini's (about 6 sets worth (full)) and I am more impressed with the Pathfinder Mini's.
> 
> The cost per mini is a little more but not so much that I would not still buy them myself. Complaining about the cost per mini while comparing it to DDM is not a fair comparison. It would be like comparing a computer from the year 2000 to one of today. While yes the one from 2000 might still work and get on the internet the computer from today makes those look tragically inadequate.
> 
> Cost needs to be more or they would not be able to produce them at a profit without that being what it is. DDM they were going to loose money if they kept that price going. Trust me they were increasing the cost with each set too... that means that the cost would have come in line eventually with what the Pathfinder minis are today or a close proximity.




It's a completely legitimate comparison. The last DDM set was not that long ago. The quality of minis is comparable for anyone taking an honest look (there are good and bad in each line, and tastes will vary even on which fit which category though the Pathfinder Ogres and Ettins are much worse than the worst DDM ones, for example, and there was a ....not good DDM Ettin). 

There is also some variation from set-to-set. The last DDM set was tremendous. This set is looking better than H&M, which overall was kind of poor. 

A reasonable increase from DDM would be understandable, but they took a MAJOR jump (60%!). The last non-huge DDM set went for $14.99 per booster and Whiz Kids/Paizo took a 47% price jump.


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## Nikmal (Aug 25, 2012)

Herschel said:


> It's a completely legitimate comparison. The last DDM set was not that long ago. The quality of minis is comparable for anyone taking an honest look (there are good and bad in each line, and tastes will vary even on which fit which category though the Pathfinder Ogres and Ettins are much worse than the worst DDM ones, for example, and there was a ....not good DDM Ettin).
> 
> There is also some variation from set-to-set. The last DDM set was tremendous. This set is looking better than H&M, which overall was kind of poor.
> 
> A reasonable increase from DDM would be understandable, but they took a MAJOR jump (60%!). The last non-huge DDM set went for $14.99 per booster and Whiz Kids/Paizo took a 47% price jump.



Hmm I guess the Gold Ennie the H&M set got this last voting period agrees mainly with me and not your view point. Not to mention the fact that the DDM line is defunct for a reason. Mainly cost effectiveness over quality and quantity. There was a ton of complaints over the quality of miniatures and paint jobs with DDM's and for good reason. There were whole sets where the paint jobs and or the quality of the miniatures was nigh on to laughable. Which is a sad thing. 

I am not saying that the Wizkids Miniatures is near perfect but when comparing them to DDM miniatures I will take Pathfinder Miniatures every single day of the week over DDM. This is coming from a person that owns several sets and spent thousands of dollars on them, regrettably on more then one occasion. Most of my friends and a lot of people at my local game store are in agreement with me on this. 

I was loyal for 35 years to the Dungeons and Dragons line of Role Playing and WotC had to screw that up in a royal way in my opinion and I was a fan of the DDM miniatures but again WotC screwed that up on more then one occasion as well. So badly in some cases... they stopped making them for a reason.  I am also sorry  to add that the recent line called Dungeon Command reusing sculpts from the DDM line and reissuing them under a different guise is not a good thing even if it is NOT random, it is sad that there is not even 1 new sculpt in the set... sad indeed. 

Whiz-Kids is still making miniatures for a reason... they got a good formula going for price points vs quality and seem to be doing well enough that they can produce new lines of miniatures one of which was for Pathfinder in H&M and now RotRL as well with Shattered Star being released in January. One has to ask oneself how are they able to continue them successfully.


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## Herschel (Aug 25, 2012)

Nikmal said:


> Hmm I guess the Gold Ennie the H&M set got this last voting period agrees mainly with me and not your view point. Not to mention the fact that the DDM line is defunct for a reason. Mainly cost effectiveness over quality and quantity. There was a ton of complaints over the quality of miniatures and paint jobs with DDM's and for good reason. There were whole sets where the paint jobs and or the quality of the miniatures was nigh on to laughable. Which is a sad thing.
> 
> I am not saying that the Wizkids Miniatures is near perfect but when comparing them to DDM miniatures *I will take Pathfinder Miniatures every single day of the week over DDM.* This is coming from a person that owns several sets and spent thousands of dollars on them, regrettably on more then one occasion. Most of my friends and a lot of people at my local game store are in agreement with me on this.
> 
> ...




LoL, and what about the awards DDM won? DDM had it's ups & downs, nobody's denying that. 

1. Post War Drums they had some hit & miss with new sculpting, paints steps, etc. 
2. The sets with the visibles were not a good move, they listened to market noise and those that complained they wouldn't buy without seeing still didn't. 
3. Whiz Kids have their own defunct lines like Mage Knight, etc. So your argument there is ridiculous. And a lot of their minis have sucked hard long before this and they've been doing it longer. 
4. Who's lauding Dungeon Command as a Superior Minis product? It's a miniature skirmish game that's not nearly as fun (for me anyway) as the old one. There's a couple of new sculpts in the Cormyr box so I picked it up (and to try out the game with friends). There aren't in the Drow, so I didn't. 
5. Where you really lose .... standing as an impartial viewer(?) is where you say you'll take Pathfinder minis over DDM any day of the week. Only a Paizo warrior would say something so ridiculous. They're a very similar product, both with ups & downs, weird sculpts, good and bad sculpts and paint. Dangerous Delves was a low point for DDM, the last set was tremendous. H&M was mostly crap, Rise is very nice overall. The steep increase in price is where Paizo/Whiz Kids lose there value compared to DDM. But if their rabid followers are willing to shell out the greatly increased prices for them, so be it. 
6. And that's not to say I'm not buying some because there are some nice figures in there. I've picked up a few singles from Auggies already*. I'm just not going to shell out like I did for DDM because the price point has gone beyond reasonable to grab sets/multiples. 

*Shipped, not yet in hand.


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## Herschel (Aug 25, 2012)

Skeld said:


> Good review, although I'm waaay more concerned about the condition the miniatures arrive in than the packaging they use. As soon as minis start showing up broken, I become a very sad customer (especially at those prices).
> 
> -Skeld




While the prices are high, broken minis shouldn't be much of an issue. The new plastic will alleviate most of that problem.


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## Lancelot (Aug 29, 2012)

Herschel said:


> While the prices are high, broken minis shouldn't be much of an issue. The new plastic will alleviate most of that problem.




On the strength of this EN World review, I finally bit the bullet and bought some boosters and a bunch of single, 90%+ of which were from the new Rise of the Runelords set.

I'm a huge DDM collector. I can state with confidence that the quality of the Pathfinder sculpts is impressive, and the paint jobs at least satisfactory (...although, worth noting, not as good as most of the photos - some of which must be production masters). However, I can also state that I'm very disappointed in the quantity of broken minis and deformed plastic.

Approximately 30% of all minis received (either boosters or individuals - and the latter were carefully packed with foam peanuts) were broken in some way. Head snapped off lamia... wing and horns broken off alu-demon... akie broken off her base... redcap scythe blade snapped off... lamia matriach arm broken off... etc. I even have a few minis where paint has "chipped", which caught me by surprise. You can accidentally step on a DDM mini (after microwaving it...) and it won't effect the paint job, but the Pathfinder minis seem to be much more fragile.

Of the remainder, anything with thin plastic (stone giant spears, karzoug's polearm, etc) looks like a banana or, in some extreme cases, like a horseshoe. I've tried the "hot water treatment" that usually fixes DDM minis, but they're far less responsive to that.

At this stage, I won't be purchasing again unless it's specifically a mini with no protruding "bits" (arms, weapons, etc), or unless the plastic is changed significantly. For reference, I have hundreds of MageKnight and HeroClix figures, and I've never seen this level of damage before.

It's a shame, because I really do like many of the sculpts.

On the upside, there were a couple of minis that were perfect; usually because they were more "solid". The yeti figure is just awesome, and the huges are great as well. It seems that the bigger the figure, the less chance of it being broken or badly warped.


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## Nikosandros (Aug 29, 2012)

I'm also very disappointed with the fragility of those minis. today I received my booster case and two minis (actually, two rare minis!) were detached from their bases.


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## Mirtek (Sep 1, 2012)

Herschel said:


> 2. The sets with the visibles were not a good move, they listened to market noise and those that complained they wouldn't buy without seeing still didn't.



To be precise they started to listen to them because the sales where already dropping and the tried to grab for that straw to turn them around. It's not as if everything was fine and they simply decided to give it a try out of the blue and then everything started downhill.

Actually they did not really listen to these people (or had a terrible failure understanding them). Those people didn't complain "we want to see a single one of the minis or won't buy", they complained "we want to see the minis or we won't buy". Showing them a single mini and leaving the rest as blind randoms was something nobody asked for. 

Don't blame people for not buying something that they never asked WotC to try to sell them.


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## Zezicks (Sep 1, 2012)

I purchased one of the huge boosters at my FLGS, just to get an idea for the new line. I pulled a Glabrezu, I mean "Treachery Demon" which is the one I was hoping for. I am generally impressed with the sculpt and paint work...but I just can't get on board with the price. 

The miniature itself is pretty well painted, with a good amount of blending, and a good use of washes and highlights. The top of the miniature, where the shoulder plates become broader, starts to look a little cheap and plastic-like. The neon green tongue doesn't blend well inside the mouth, and I'll probably add some shadow toward the back of the throat to make it a little less stark. The paint work on the claws is the best part, with the green of the body on the rear getting a little more drab. 

The sculpt is pretty good, and there are a lot of complex parts that had to be fit on after molding. To that end, I would have liked to have seen some better fitting here. One arm has a big gap between the arm and the shoulder where it's suppose to fit into. The back spines are a separate piece that was glued to the back. It looks OK, but it's easy to see that the piece was glued on later.

Is this figure worth $25? If I needed one for a game, then probably...maybe...kindof. 

In my mind, these aren't much different from a collectable action figure. McFarlane had an awesome line of Dragon toys that were gigantic by comparison, you could see them in the package, they had more detail, and cost about half the price as a "huge" Battles miniature. I use some of the more traditional sculpts as dragons in my home games all the time. My question is, why are Pathfinder Battles so expensive? I just don't understand the marketing data they give us and the idea that they need to randomize them to offer the entire line. 

In action figure sales, they spread the cost of creating the figures across the whole line. So in a line with a very large figure, there will also be one that's much smaller to balance the costs. They make sure everyone buys all the figures by 1. making them all desirable characters and 2. putting something else in the package that people will want, like Hasbro's "build a figure" line that includes a piece to a larger build-it-yourself figure. 

And the idea that these action figures are more marketable doesn't really work for me either. McFarlane built his whole company around "action" figures that couldn't do anything but sit on a shelf. No articulation, no blinking lights...just really awesome sculpts dressed in some really awesome paint jobs. And many of his lines were extremely obscure. People bought them because they saw them sitting on a shelf and thought they looked cool. If I saw a Pathfinder Tarrasque sitting on a shelf as part of a Pathfinder Monsters line, I would buy it in a heartbeat. Maybe the comparison is totally irrelevant, but it's still something I'm wondering about.

While I don't regret the purchase, spending $25 on a random miniature that looks "pretty good" isn't going to happen more than once. I'll buy the ones I need after market, or spend the same amount of money on a Reaper miniature that will take a lot more work, but end up being far higher quality.


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## Jhaelen (Sep 3, 2012)

Mirtek said:


> Actually they did not really listen to these people (or had a terrible failure understanding them). Those people didn't complain "we want to see a single one of the minis or won't buy", they complained "we want to see the minis or we won't buy". Showing them a single mini and leaving the rest as blind randoms was something nobody asked for.
> 
> Don't blame people for not buying something that they never asked WotC to try to sell them.



Well, it was a compromise that didn't to work as well as they'd hoped. The packs with desirable visibles (e.g. demons, dragons) sold well, others didn't (e.g. aboleth, unicorn).

All in all it was too little, too late.


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## Nikosandros (Sep 4, 2012)

> she's a cheater and she uses the 'guide to profanity



I, on the other hand, am not a cheater and I use the report button...


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