# Catwoman Movie (threads merged)



## Klaus (Sep 18, 2003)

*Catwoman description... Lord help me!*

Warner Bros. hasn't learn a thing with Marvel's recent successes, have they?

Here's the description of the new "catwoman" movie:

----
Benjamin Bratt will play Halle Berry's love interest in Catwoman, the Warner Bros. adaptation of the DC Comics character. The film begins shooting September 29 with French director Pitof at the helm.

The movie, set in Lake City, is the story of Patience Price (Berry), a veterinary scientist who takes on the identity of Catwoman in her fight against the evil plots of the cosmetics company for which she works. The firm is a front for the criminal exploits of the husband and wife team that run it.

Bratt will play Detective Tom Lone, who falls in love with Price. Also on board are Sharon Stone as Laurel, the villainous cosmetics magnate, and French actor Lambert Wilson (The Matrix Reloaded) as Georges, her evil husband.
----

"...[WB's] adaptation of the DC Comics character"? I don't think so...


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## Mathew_Freeman (Sep 18, 2003)

It stopped being the DC Catwoman as soon as Halle Berry was cast, IMHO. This looks like utter dreck right now. Hopefully I'll be proved wrong, but I doubt it.

We've had a perfect film Catwoman in Batman Returns. This version - blech.


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## Dirigible (Sep 18, 2003)

Hmmmm....
Nope.

I don't remember catwoman being black.
Or a hero.

'evil cosmetics company'? Oh my.



> Lambert Wilson (The Matrix Reloaded) as Georges



Was that the Merovingian? I loved that guy.

Mabye what Warner should ahve learned is that DC comics should be put down, avoided, and NEVER MADE INTO MOVIES AGAIN.


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## Henry (Sep 18, 2003)

Good Lord. Now Catwoman plays Halle Berry. And fighting a COSMETICS COMPANY??? That's a very inane plotline, and choice of actress for the role, IMHO.

What's next? The Martian Manhunter takes on a fast-food franchise for Flame-Broiling Cows?


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## Alaric_Prympax (Sep 18, 2003)

Klaus said:
			
		

> The movie, set in Lake City, is the story of Patience Price (Berry), a veterinary scientist who takes on the identity of Catwoman in her fight against the evil plots of the cosmetics company for which she works. The firm is a front for the criminal exploits of the husband and wife team that run it.




And just think about this for a moment... I don't know what's worse:

1. someone actually got *paid* for coming up with this,

or

2. someone actually liked this and thought this would make a good movie and *paid* for this idea.

Either way money exchanged hands. 

Hopefully the movie will turn out better then it sounds


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 18, 2003)

Oh well, just goes to show that they don't have a clue.  

Did you see the story about Tom Cruise and the Battle of Brittan, complete re-write of history!


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## aliensex (Sep 18, 2003)

I'm sorry.  Halle Berry is hot and all, but after seeing XMen, the ONLY woman that can play Catwoman now is.... Rebecca Romijn-Stamos!!!   

Man, I want to see that body in tight latex... GRRRRR baby GRRRRRR!!!!


P.S. She should also be kicking Batman's ass, not battling Powderpuff woman


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 18, 2003)

aliensex said:
			
		

> I'm sorry.  Halle Berry is hot and all, but after seeing XMen, the ONLY woman that can play Catwoman now is.... Rebecca Romijn-Stamos!!!
> 
> Man, I want to see that body in tight latex... GRRRRR baby GRRRRRR!!!!



Down boy, down...damn the pictures in my mind...tight latex, Rebecca...grrrrrr


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## Heretic Apostate (Sep 18, 2003)

Dirigible said:
			
		

> I don't remember catwoman being black.




Wasn't one of the Catwomen from the 60s show (I think two or three actresses played Catwoman during the show) black?  Urma Kitt, or something like that?  Sexy voice, even now...




			
				Dirigible said:
			
		

> Or a hero.




I liked the episode of Batman: The Animated Series (right before Batman Beyond) where Catwoman and Batgirl teamed up.  Catwoman is about to push a badguy off the roof/catwalk/somewhere, and Batgirl says not to stoop to their level.  "Grow up," says Catwoman, as she pushes the guy off.   Hero, definitely not.  Pragmatist is more like it...


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## WayneLigon (Sep 18, 2003)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Warner Bros. hasn't learn a thing with Marvel's recent successes, have they?



Apparently not. I'm certainly not 'up' on how either Marvel or DC conducts that part of their business, but a few things occur to me. 

Marvel if anyone remembers, also had a string of terrible adaptations. The Captain America TV movies, the first Punisher movie, etc.. Marvel, in an attempt to get cash, licensed themselves to hell and back. THis resulted in cheap studios buying rights then making bad movies that negatively impacted perception of Marvel as a good property to use. I seem to remember they spent a lot of time and money tracking down as many of those agreements as they could and buying them out, nullifying them, whatever, so they could then be pickier about who made a movie based on a Marvel property. I'm not sure when they formed Marvel Studios.

Also, it seems Avi Arad has a major impact on their success. CEO of Marvel Studios, he seems to have the golden touch right now. 

From IGN: 

_Under Arad's leadership, Marvel Studios has been, in many ways, responsible for turning around the "Marvel curse" that plagued most of the film and TV adaptations of their characters throughout the 1970s and 1980s. Of course, it helped immensely that Marvel stopped whoring out their best properties to the lowest bidders as they'd done throughout the 1980s (Cannon Films, anyone?) and pushed for established filmmakers that treated Marvel's source material with respect and intelligence._

This kind of leadership, having an arm that oversees your properties and makes sure that someone can't do a 'Batman and Robin' to you, or Roger Corman doesn't get near you, seems to be the key. Batman 5 might, might, be the thing that gives Warner the clue if they get it right. On the other hand, Warner seems almost embarrassed that they have a comic book division since they seem to like giving projects to people that will 're-imagine' their properties (see the recent buzz about the new Flash incarnation, which basically turns a costumeless Wally West into Sam Beckett).


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## Kesh (Sep 18, 2003)

Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> Wasn't one of the Catwomen from the 60s show (I think two or three actresses played Catwoman during the show) black?  Urma Kitt, or something like that?  Sexy voice, even now...




That would be Eartha Kitt. _Mrrrowww...._ 

I don't have a problem with Catwoman being black. I do have a problem with the assinine pitch concept they've concocted for this film...


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## Mercule (Sep 18, 2003)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> (see the recent buzz about the new Flash incarnation, which basically turns a costumeless Wally West into Sam Beckett).



Got a link?


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## aliensex (Sep 18, 2003)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Down boy, down...damn the pictures in my mind...tight latex, Rebecca...grrrrrr




*pant* *pant* *pant*  OK, I'm calm.  Wheeeew, almost blew an O-ring there 



> Wasn't one of the Catwomen from the 60s show (I think two or three actresses played Catwoman during the show) black? Urma Kitt, or something like that? Sexy voice, even now...




Yes, the great Ertha Kitt.  Still, my favourite will always be the beautiful and lanky Julie Newmar.  I always liked the episodes where she would do high kicks


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## Umbran (Sep 18, 2003)

Well, guess what folks?   The "up against the cosmetics company" line isn't new.  The animal rights activist Catwoman showed up in the Batman animated series.  Unless you folks are really avid readers of the comics, are you absolutely sure you can say she wasn't similar in one of those continuities?


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## Villano (Sep 18, 2003)

Kesh said:
			
		

> I don't have a problem with Catwoman being black. I do have a problem with the assinine pitch concept they've concocted for this film...





Same here, although I've never thought of Berry as a good actress (then again, I haven't seen Monster's Ball), I have no problem with her race and the role.

As for the story, it seems there's more to it now than when I started a thread on it a few months ago (back then all we knew was Halley Berry and her character's name and the "avenging the death of her father" thing).  Now, we have the whole cosmetic company angle.  

Again, I wonder why Hollywood would buy the rights to something only to alter it beyond recognition.  I'm reminded of those awful Captain America tv movies.  Or, heck, any of the Superman scripts that were nearly made.  You know, the ones where Luthor was a Kryptionian, Jimmy Olsen was gay, Luthor had a comedy relief dog that didn't like him, Brainiac's gay robot, etc., etc..

Actually, I'm reminded of a skit on MST3K.  They were doing a low-budget Canadian film called Final Sacrifice.  During the end credits, Crow stated that he felt it would have worked better as a tv series.  Crow began to pitch his concept to Mike, acting as a tv producer, who would constantly jump in with arbitrary changes.

When Crow began to talk about the boy in the film (I can't remember his name), Mike says, "He's a girl now."

"What?", Crow asks.

"He's a girl now.  In fact, they're all girls now.  We'll have the dumb one and the loose one.  Everyone's a damn girl."

"But, what about Rozdower?", Crow says, making mention of the big, fat, old drunk who was the "hero".

Mike shouts, "A big, hairy girl!"

I'm pretty sure that's how the Catwoman pitch went.

Reading the Catwoman plot description, I'm visualizing something akin to Batman & Robin.  Sharon Stone will be dressed in furs and have a cigerrette holder (like Cruella DeVille).  She's laugh manically and rave about her evil, mind-control make-up.  

_Speculation_:  The company will be testing it's cosmetics on animal and Berry will be exposed to some chemicals (maybe even evil make-up) and will be granted cat powers.

I can't imagine this being good.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 18, 2003)

Hoo boy, that don't look too good.

Halle Berry I've got no problem with, but when was the last time Sharon Stone was in anything good?  Hope they got her on the cheap.

That plot is nutty.  Why mess with success?  They usually do stuff like this to appeal to some demographic.  What tiny demographic would be attracted to this plotline?  Radical animal rights people?  Inbred rednecks?  _Dead people?_


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## Ranger REG (Sep 18, 2003)

I thought that Halle Berry is to play the second-generation Catwoman, barring the daughter of Selina Kyle that was featured in _Birds of Prey_ (comic and TV series).

The pitch concept sounds less appealing, so I'm hoping someone in the WB exec's office would find a better script, rather than doing the _Elseworld_ version.

(Although I must admit, I'd like to see a short movie featuring _Batman_ and _Robin_ in either pseudo Feudal Japan or Medieval/Knightly setting.)


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## Klaus (Sep 18, 2003)

The best Catwoman so far was done by Darwyn Cooke, in "Selina's Big Score". If they wanted to do a Catwoman movie, they should have gone that way (basically, it's Ocean's Eleven led by a woman).

Now I know why Ashley Judd jumped ship...

As for the Flash buzz, WB wanted to make a time-travelling show, where the hero goes back in time to set wrongs right. Then someone with a pea for a brain suggested they did a "Smallville" approach with the Flash. He's a young Gothamite (!!!!) who can run so fast, he can travel through time (!!!!), has a mentor that teaches him on the history of the Flashes and has the motto "run fast so others don't die young". And he never wears a costume.

Sounds like Birds of Prey didn't teach these guys a thing...


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## Ranger REG (Sep 18, 2003)

Is it by the same production group that not only did _Birds of Prey_ (which is a pretty good show, just not good enough for the friggin' mainstream  ) but _Smallville_ (now in its third season)?


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## Barendd Nobeard (Sep 18, 2003)

aliensex said:
			
		

> Still, my favourite will always be the beautiful and lanky Julie Newmar.  I always liked the episodes where she would do high kicks



Yes!  She also had the best dialog of any villain.

Julie's best *Catwoman* lines:


Catwoman:  _Felix!  You can brush my pussywillows before you go.  And don't go against the fur._

* * *

Catwoman: _Marry me!  As a former criminal, I'd be invaluable in your work._

Batman: _A wife, no matter how beauteous or affectiontate, would severely impair my crime-fighting._

Catwoman:  _I can reform.  Honestly, I can!_

Batman:  _But....what about Robin?_

Catwoman:  _Robin?!...  I've got it.  We'll kill him!_

(the same basic joke was used on another episode

Batman:  _But, what about Robin?_

Catwoman:  _We'll have him killed  Painlessly, of course.  Well, he is a bit of a bore, with his "holy this!" and "holy that!"_

* * * 

Catwoman:  (torturing Batman to turn his brain to mush):  _Shortly following that, your brains will be turned into yeccccch.  And then you can be mine *forever*, Batman.  True, I'll have to destroy your great intellect.  Oh well, one can't have one's cake and, uh_ (looks at Batman's crotch) _eat it, too._

* * *

Batman:  (on the phone; not sure of the exact line, but it's something like) _Catwoman, I find you to be insufferable, odious, and insegrevious._

Catwoman: _Batman, dealing with you has expanded my word power and increased my vocabulary...a whole lot!_

* * *

Catwoman's apprentice Pussycat (played by Leslie Gore), has just performed a song for the henchmen, who are applauding.

Catwoman:  _Stop!  Enough!  Nobody gets more applause than Catwoman._ (Catwoman stretches her arms in a dramatic flourish and trips)


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## Piratecat (Sep 19, 2003)

So, you guys may not realize it, but our own John Rogers (JonRog1, writer of The Core and Jackie Chan Adventures and some damn cool story hours) wrote an earlier treatment of the script. I believe they thanked him, paid him, and then changed it beyond recognition by giving it to the guys who wrote T3. 

He'd have to tell us the details, though, and I'm not sure he can. Let's just say that I trust his judgment and comic-book sense more than I do that of a director who previously has only done visual effects.

John, any comments?


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## Mercule (Sep 19, 2003)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Now I know why Ashley Judd jumped ship...



*sob*

Ashley Judd in leather would have been much better than Haley Berry in leather.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 19, 2003)

Perhaps, but that's because Ashley Judd have yet to do a nude scene.

At least we should be grateful it is not her sister, Wynona.


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## Green Knight (Sep 20, 2003)

> As for the Flash buzz, WB wanted to make a time-travelling show, where the hero goes back in time to set wrongs right. Then someone with a pea for a brain suggested they did a "Smallville" approach with the Flash. He's a young Gothamite (!!!!) who can run so fast, he can travel through time (!!!!), has a mentor that teaches him on the history of the Flashes and has the motto "run fast so others don't die young". And he never wears a costume.




Ah, I see. They already had an idea that they wanted to do, but rather than letting it rise or fall under its own steam, they want to milk off the name of a pre-established character. Right. 

Anyone remember that story of when some people approached WoTC to do a cartoon based on Magic: The Gathering? The pitch was that the lead character would be some pizza-eating, soda swilling teen kid from our world who's naturally capable of wielding magic, who'd be teamed up with a Barbarian who, get this, doesn't like magic! 

Point is, it was NOTHING like the world presented in Magic: The Gathering. So WoTC turned them down. 

As it turned down, that same pitch was tossed off at Disney previously, and Disney also turned them down. They had this show idea LONG before and all they wanted to do was attach the Magic: The Gathering name to it to drawn in fans of the property, even though the show itself would've had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. I absolutely HATE it when they do that. How about just sticking to your own idea, rather than trying to milk off some other idea?


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## Sirius_Black (Sep 20, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but that's because Ashley Judd have yet to do a nude scene.
> 
> At least we should be grateful it is not her sister, Wynona.




Actually Ashley Judd has done more than one nude scene.  Even with that fact, she still would look better in the leather than Halle.  If the story is what it appears to be in the postings here, I predict a Hulk like box office.  Huge opening weekend followed by the 60% or more drop off the next weekend.  Of course the studio will buzz up the opening weekend, ignore the huge drop, and greenlight a sequel faster than the Flash with an even dumber plot than the one being revealed here.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 20, 2003)

Klaus said:
			
		

> As for the Flash buzz, WB wanted to make a time-travelling show, where the hero goes back in time to set wrongs right. Then someone with a pea for a brain suggested they did a "Smallville" approach with the Flash. He's a young Gothamite (!!!!) who can run so fast, he can travel through time (!!!!), has a mentor that teaches him on the history of the Flashes and has the motto "run fast so others don't die young". And he never wears a costume.



Sounds like the same premise of that Tru Calling show with Eliza Dushku coming out this fall*. And from the advance reviews of Tru Calling, that's not the show you want to be ripping off.


*not to mention Quantum Leap.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Sep 20, 2003)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> *not to mention Quantum Leap.



Lets not group Quantum Leap with this cesspool of crap...  please?


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## ShinHakkaider (Sep 20, 2003)

Dirigible said:
			
		

> Hmmmm....
> Nope.
> 
> I don't remember catwoman being black.
> ...


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## Endur (Sep 20, 2003)

Selina's Big Score was pretty good, but the best Catwoman was the four issues series written by Mindy Newell in the 1980's.  It was Catwoman's origin story and it was very good, much better than the later series that followed it and based on Batman's Year One series from Frank Miller from the year before.  Only problem was that it was too mature for DC's editorial board, and the DC editorial board edited/censored the final issue.

My personal feeling is that Halle Barry could be an effective Catwoman.  However, she can't be Selina Kyle.  She needs a different name.  And the plot sounds terrible.



			
				Klaus said:
			
		

> The best Catwoman so far was done by Darwyn Cooke, in "Selina's Big Score". If they wanted to do a Catwoman movie, they should have gone that way (basically, it's Ocean's Eleven led by a woman).
> 
> Now I know why Ashley Judd jumped ship...
> 
> Sounds like Birds of Prey didn't teach these guys a thing...


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 20, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> So, you guys may not realize it, but our own John Rogers (JonRog1, writer of The Core and Jackie Chan Adventures and some damn cool story hours) wrote an earlier treatment of the script. I believe they thanked him, paid him, and then changed it beyond recognition by giving it to the guys who wrote T3.



From what I understand, and Jonrog can school me if I'm wrong, scripts go through a lot of rewrites and script-writers before they're finalized.  It's nothing unusual.

And I liked T3!



> He'd have to tell us the details, though, and I'm not sure he can. Let's just say that I trust his judgment and comic-book sense more than I do that of a director who previously has only done visual effects.



Probably not, but then Jonrog's script may have been completely thrown out anyway.  Joss Whedon did a version of X-Men, and they only used two or three lines from his treatment, from what I recall.


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## Piratecat (Sep 21, 2003)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> Halle Berry is BI-RACIAL. Her mother is as white as the driven snow.
> Maybe it doesnt bother so much now, eh?




Whoa, there. There's a difference between being racist and complaining that a character has been changed from the original concept. In this case, though, I agree that race has very little to do with the character.

It's best not to attribute racist motivations when it's not justified. Please feel free to email me if you want to discuss this further.


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## stevelabny (Sep 21, 2003)

a few comments

1> changing the characters race is completely unimportant unless it changes their fundamental character. example: Luke Cage would have to be black.  Otherwise it doesnt matter. I still don't get the uproar over Michael Clarke Duncan's Kingpin. Kingpin's main comic book trait is his immense physical size. not that hes white. And Duncan is about as big as you can get. Catwoman's race is unimportant. But it is required she be sleek and agile and some sort of villain, even if they turn her into one of the Robin Hood variety.

2> DC also decided somwhere along the line to try to make all their tv shows and movies appeal to a mainstream audience rather than geeks. The "new" Marvel movies (excpet for hulk) know that comics are so cool at their core,that EVERYONE can relate to them, and there is no need to radically alter them for the general public. Unfortunately for DC, the "mainstream audience" is just a littel more geeky than it use to be as the sucess of LOTR, Harry Potter, Spider-man and X2 show.

3> the phrase "evil cosmetics company" should never be used.

4> the catwoman movie, the next batman movie, and the flash show will SUCK.


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## Villano (Sep 21, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> a few comments
> 
> 1> changing the characters race is completely unimportant unless it changes their fundamental character. example: Luke Cage would have to be black.  Otherwise it doesnt matter. I still don't get the uproar over Michael Clarke Duncan's Kingpin. Kingpin's main comic book trait is his immense physical size. not that hes white. And Duncan is about as big as you can get.




I can understand people objecting to changes in race and sex if you are a fan.  Just as changing a costume, origin, etc.   My lack of concern with Catwoman's race is due to the fact that I'm not a huge fan (although I am enjoying the new series). 

Of course, she could be a pink hippo and it wouldn't matter considering all the changes in the movie.   

With the DD movie, more people were concerned with the changes to Bullseye than Kingpin, I think.  Although, even Duncan remarked, when offered the role, "How did a black guy become the head of the Italian mob?", so there is a bit of a logic reason.

IMO, it all comes down to how much is the character changed by altering one thing.  If the Flash is now black, no big deal.  However, if Wonder Woman is, how are you going to handle the whole Greek myth angle?  Whether or not there was a large population of black people in ancient Greece won't matter to the genreal audience who will most likely be confused.


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## ShinHakkaider (Sep 21, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Whoa, there. There's a difference between being racist and complaining that a character has been changed from the original concept. In this case, though, I agree that race has very little to do with the character.
> 
> It's best not to attribute racist motivations when it's not justified. Please feel free to email me if you want to discuss this further.




Wait, dont get it twisted. 

He obviously had a concern about the character being black, I pointed out the actress is at least part white. So he should feel a bit less concerned now. 

As a fan of comics and RPG's, who is also a black man I'm sooooooo tired of hearing fanboys bitch and moan about blacks being cast in movies that they feel they shouldnt be in.   Yes I know comic book and RPG industry is about 95% white, but there are times that a little variety does do some good. SO everytime I hear "why John Stewart" or "she's not black in the comic" it sets me right off...


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## Brother Shatterstone (Sep 21, 2003)

Actually I think she was rather ticked off about them using her cat, I think its name was Iciest, but it's been more than a few years so I could be wrong.

As for the other issues, I don't think anyone in here is upset at the race of catwoman I think everyone is a tad worried about them being loyal to the character, which they should be as WB has been complete and utter failure when it comes to being loyal to a character.  I didn't see anything wrong with the Michael Clarke Duncan being Kingpin as there isn’t that many people the right size to play Kingpin so their was little to no choice.  I don’t see it in this case as there is penalty of other choices and this is simply a lack of loyalty to the character and that the part that bugs me…   Why does WB, who owns the rights to all of the characters, make huge revolutionary change to their character?  Doesn’t make good business since to me, why not make it as loyal to the comic book as possible and hope that you can draw new readers in?

Anywho if someone ones to label me a racist cause of that so be it but know some of my other views; I thought that “James Stewart” over Hal Jordan was a great call.   As he much more of the catalyst that is needed than Hal Jordan could ever be.  Kingpin see above, and on the annoyance scale Catwoman’s race ranks way below the trash they have produced as Batman movies, and also way below the whole Batman uniform “Nipple” thing. *Shudders* 

Hopefully everyone realizes that I’m more annoyed at the lack of loyalty then I am about race.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 21, 2003)

Just to further muddy things, remember that the Catwoman in Batman: Year One was clearly African-American.  And a pretty kickbutt Catwoman, too.


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## Aaron L (Sep 22, 2003)

Eh, I just don't like Halle Berry.  

Between the Flash and this Catwoman movie, I feel a little sick to the stomach.


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## Fast Learner (Sep 22, 2003)

Unless the race/ethnicity of the character is somehow a key part of the character's persona, I don't care at all what actor plays a role. Drew Carey, for example, would make a terrible Kunta Kinte because race/ethnicity is a key concept for the character's persona. Catwoman's race/ethnicity, however, isn't part of her persona at all, so it doesn't matter in the least to me.

Interestingly (to me), however, gender does matter. I wouldn't mind a Spider-Man movie with an Asian Peter Parker, for example, but I would be quite disappointed with Penny Parker being bitten by a radioactive spider and becoming the very same character as Spider-Man. (Note that a Martha Franklin Spider-Woman movie would be fine, as she's a completely different character.)

Hmm. Double standard or some kind of root belief that gender is always a big part of persona while race/ethnicity need not be (though it certainly can be)? Interesting.


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## Green Knight (Sep 22, 2003)

The cats name in the cartoon was Isis. 



> As a fan of comics and RPG's, who is also a black man I'm sooooooo tired of hearing fanboys bitch and moan about blacks being cast in movies that they feel they shouldnt be in. Yes I know comic book and RPG industry is about 95% white, but there are times that a little variety does do some good. SO everytime I hear "why John Stewart" or "she's not black in the comic" it sets me right off...




Quick question. How would you like it if they were to make a Green Lantern movie and cast the role of John Stewart as a white guy? I know I wouldn't like it at all. It cuts both ways. More than likely, the fanboy who's aghast at the thought of Halle Berry playing Catwoman would also be aghast at the thought of a white guy playing John Stewart, Blade, Bishop, etc. It isn't about race, but about wanting the closest representation of the comics character translated to film, which is a subject that goes far beyond race (Like the bitching about Spider-Mans webshooters in the movie being organic). For instance, George Clooney is white, as is Batman, but he does NOT look like Batman, which made me and many other fans aghast at the thought of his casting. Recently, I heard that George Clooney could potentially play Reed Richards in a Fantastic Four movie (Turned out to not be true, thank God). Once again, I was aghast. Why? Because George Clooney looks NOTHING like Reed Richards. For most fans, it has nothing to do with race and EVERYTHING to seeing the onscreen character staying as true to the character they've read about for years as possible (Also, incidentally, why I was all for Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin. I can't think of ANY other actor who could replicate the Kingpin's physique).


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## JoeBlank (Sep 22, 2003)

Disclaimer: Piratecat, I would love for us to be able to continue the race debate in a mature fashion. If you don't think that is possible, I'll understand.

ShinHakkaider, I think PC called it right on. In this case at least, I don't think any of the objections are motivated by racist feelings. Most often, we fanboys (and fangirls) get worked up over changes that seem arbitrary. Witness the endless debates over the most minor details in the LoTR movies.

I am a big Daredevil fan, but I am also a Michael Clarke Duncan fan. When I heard he was cast as Kingpin, I was thrilled. I said before that I am opposed to arbitrary character changes, but I do not have any problems with a race change, made to allow a good actor/actress to play the part. As others have said, this is fine as long as race is not a defining characteristic of the character. 

In fact, I was far more concerned that Jennifer Garner does not look Greek (and I am a fan of Ms. Garner and Alias, I just did not think she was right for the part). 

For the record, I have no problem with Catwoman being black, although I am no fan of Halle Berry.



			
				ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> SO everytime I hear "why John Stewart" or "she's not black in the comic" it sets me right off...



Again, I think you are mistaking the intentions of those who complain about Jon Stewart in the Justice League cartoon. He is one of my favorite Green Lanterns, but for THE cartoon, many felt that they should use the definitive, iconic versions of the characters. That means Hal Jordan. Some did not like Wally West for the same reason, but in my opinion he has become the definitive Flash, and has been that character for some time now (braces for flames).


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## Green Knight (Sep 22, 2003)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Eh, I just don't like Halle Berry.
> 
> Between the Flash and this Catwoman movie, I feel a little sick to the stomach.




No kidding. Everytime I think about that new Flash tv show, an image of my latest visit to the toilet pops into my mind. NOT a good association.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 22, 2003)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> Halle Berry is BI-RACIAL. Her mother is as white as the driven snow.
> Maybe it doesnt bother so much now, eh?



Actually, in certains states in the mainland US, it does ... still. Not so in Hawaii. We just talk stink behind Haoles' back.


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## ShinHakkaider (Sep 22, 2003)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> The cats name in the cartoon was Isis.
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question. How would you like it if they were to make a Green Lantern movie and cast the role of John Stewart as a white guy? I know I wouldn't like it at all. It cuts both ways. More than likely, the fanboy who's aghast at the thought of Halle Berry playing Catwoman would also be aghast at the thought of a white guy playing John Stewart, Blade, Bishop, etc. It isn't about race, but about wanting the closest representation of the comics character translated to film, which is a subject that goes far beyond race (Like the bitching about Spider-Mans webshooters in the movie being organic). For instance, George Clooney is white, as is Batman, but he does NOT look like Batman, which made me and many other fans aghast at the thought of his casting. Recently, I heard that George Clooney could potentially play Reed Richards in a Fantastic Four movie (Turned out to not be true, thank God). Once again, I was aghast. Why? Because George Clooney looks NOTHING like Reed Richards. For most fans, it has nothing to do with race and EVERYTHING to seeing the onscreen character staying as true to the character they've read about for years as possible (Also, incidentally, why I was all for Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin. I can't think of ANY other actor who could replicate the Kingpin's physique).




I see your point.

However...

If you know anythin about the project you know that the character in the movie already IS NOT THE CATWOMAN that we know. Her name is not Selena Kyle, there is no Batman, there is no Gotham city. I dont think that she's even a burgular/thief in the movie. So with all of this decidely major things already changed and the fact that this is nowhere even close to resembling the character that we know, why is her race even an issue? I didnt bring up her race, someone else did. They were obviously concerned about a black (or bi-racial) actress in the role of what should have gone to a white actress. That is what I'm addressing as well. 

And lets get another thing straight. I'm not calling anyone here a racist. If I felt that way I'd just come out and say it. What does bother me is the concern about the race of a character which is so obviously removed from the orignial template of the character.

I'd be just as bothered about a black batman or a white black panther but this?


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## Ranger REG (Sep 22, 2003)

Not to sidetrack things here, but if there should be a _Nick Fury_ movie, they should take their cue from the _Ultimate_ line, and make him African-American.

(IOW, please! No David Hasselfrickenhoff!!!)


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## Brother Shatterstone (Sep 22, 2003)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I see your point.
> 
> However...
> 
> If you know anythin about the project you know that the character in the movie already IS NOT THE CATWOMAN that we know. Her name is not Selena Kyle, there is no Batman, there is no Gotham city. I dont think that she's even a burgular/thief in the movie. So with all of this decidely major things already changed and the fact that this is nowhere even close to resembling the character that we know, why is her race even an issue? I didnt bring up her race, someone else did. They were obviously concerned about a black (or bi-racial) actress in the role of what should have gone to a white actress. That is what I'm addressing as well.



Oh didn't know of all the major changes...  Nope her race doesn't bug me; it could be George Clooney as far as I care.  Man this movie is complete junk, it can't even be semi-original so in my mind this movie doesn't exists anymore...  

I was curious to see Berry's name attached to another comic book movies cause didn't she have issues with doing the second X-men movie after she turned "serious actor" with her Oscar award?  Guess all of the changes explain that.


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 22, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> With the DD movie, more people were concerned with the changes to Bullseye than Kingpin, I think.  Although, even Duncan remarked, when offered the role, "How did a black guy become the head of the Italian mob?", so there is a bit of a logic reason.




I like Duncan, thought he acted good. I still think an Italian looking fellow would have been better. I also think it should have had some computer to it, to make the Kingpin BIGGER than life. Maybe not the whole way to his Comic Size, but he should have been huge.

The fights in DD felt too superheroey, which is fine for XMen (where I actually felt they were underpowered) but for DD it should have been lower power.

Catwoman Berry is fine with me. I don't especially like her as an actress, but no matter who they cast, it wouldn't have drawn me to see the movie. 

For that matter, I don't like the choice for Galadriel, because I don't really think Blanchet is very good looking... but that's just me. 

And, for the record, it's not about Race in most of these discussions. It's about Appearance. It's making the Movie Character match the Comic Character.


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## Villano (Sep 22, 2003)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I see your point.
> 
> However...
> 
> If you know anythin about the project you know that the character in the movie already IS NOT THE CATWOMAN that we know. Her name is not Selena Kyle, there is no Batman, there is no Gotham city. I dont think that she's even a burgular/thief in the movie. So with all of this decidely major things already changed and the fact that this is nowhere even close to resembling the character that we know, why is her race even an issue? I didnt bring up her race, someone else did. They were obviously concerned about a black (or bi-racial) actress in the role of what should have gone to a white actress. That is what I'm addressing as well.





I think the "black" issue arose only as an aside.  People were chiming in with "She isn't like this" and "She isn't like that".  Someone just mentioned race as another change on the very, very, long, why even call her "Catwoman", oh God this movie is going to be so bad, list.

But, let's look at things a bit differently.  If you changed the race of Jimmy Olsen in the new Superman movie, would it be wrong to object?  You might say, "So what if he's now black?"  However, what if we exchange race for sexuality.  Instead of black, the new Jimmy Olsen is gay.  

Now, if someone objects to that, would it be wrong?  

Or if Luke Cage went from being black to latino?  Honestly, you could do the same stories, so why sould it matter?  

Sometimes Hollywood is just plain weird and changes things just for the sake of changing them.  I've seen the movie Congo, but never read the book.  From what I understand, Ernie Hudson's big game hunter was originally white.  The change didn't bother me.  

However, I'm left scratching my head why they would hire an Englishman, Tim Curry, and then cast him as a Romanian instead of doing the obvious.

It's kind of like buying a horse to put in a western, and then having it play a cow.   

Another change which is going to raise eyebrows when the movie is released is the casting of the Rock as Buford Pusser in the remake of Walking Tall.  The problem is that the Rock is half Samoan and half black, and the real life Pusser was white.

Now your not only changing the race of a real person, but you're stuck with the issues that go hand in hand with being of black heritage in 60's Tennessee.  

Of course, they'll most likely get around this by moving the story to the present, which will lead us to ask how much "true" is left in this true story.



> And lets get another thing straight. I'm not calling anyone here a racist. If I felt that way I'd just come out and say it. What does bother me is the concern about the race of a character which is so obviously removed from the orignial template of the character.




I think any implication of racism is a dangerous thing.  How does one defend himself from such accusations?  How do you prove what you think?

Years ago, the black woman on The Practice (don't watch the show so I don't know her name) was complaining about not getting a role.  She called the producers racist.

So, what film was she denied because of her race?  I'm not certain which one, but it was either The Crucible or The Scarlet Letter. 

Now, the producers were so scared of being labelled "racists", that they went through this whole thing about her not being good enough for the part, the woman they cast was a better actress, etc, etc.  They were too scared to simply say, "Yes, she didn't get the part because she's black.  We're doing a historical drama about puritans and there weren't any black puritans.  If we cast a black woman, it would destroy the 'historical' part of 'historical drama'."

I'm sure Morgan Freeman would turn in one hell of a performance as Abe Lincoln, but he shouldn't be cast as him.   

Actually, this whole thing reminds me of The One-Legged Tarzan Sketch I once saw on tv.  It was part of a filmed, British stage performance.  There were a whole bunch of sketches, and this was but one.

Anyway, Dudley Moore played a one-legged actor who was trying out for the role of Tarzan.  The producer was trying to delicately tell him he didn't get the part without coming out and saying that it's because he has one leg.


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## JoeBlank (Sep 22, 2003)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> If you know anythin about the project you know that the character in the movie already IS NOT THE CATWOMAN that we know. Her name is not Selena Kyle, there is no Batman, there is no Gotham city. I dont think that she's even a burgular/thief in the movie.



Excellent point. Our debate is interesting, but moot: This movie ain't about the Catwoman we know. So much has changed it can hardly be called change, this is just another character who happens to be called Catwoman.


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## Mercule (Sep 22, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> But, let's look at things a bit differently. If you changed the race of Jimmy Olsen in the new Superman movie, would it be wrong to object? You might say, "So what if he's now black?" However, what if we exchange race for sexuality. Instead of black, the new Jimmy Olsen is gay.



Most of the time, I couldn't care less about what race the actor playing the part is.  MCD as Kingpin didn't bother me at all.  Of course, I never figured that the Kingpin was definitely Italian.  It always seemed to me that his organization was as exagerated as everything else in comics.  It included all sorts of organized crime under its umbrella.  Mafia, Tongs, gangbangers, Colombian cartels, the works.  Thus, he could have been a former Sumo wrestler for all I cared.  MCD is a great Kingpin, IMO.

As far as Jimmy Olsen being gay, I'm not a big DC fan, but my impression has always been that Jimmy was a teen (teen sex having little place in a comic book flick, IMO) and couldn't score if the field was expanded to include livestock, rodents, and various alien entities.  Given that, I have a hard time coming up with a good reason to mention his sexuality in any way, shape or form.  Although I can come up with a whole host of bad reasons that would detract from the movie at least a bit.  And _that_ is why I'd oppose making him gay.


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## Henry (Sep 22, 2003)

A random assortment of comments, seasoned _just so_ for your enjoyment:

--Michael Clark Duncan: Excellent performance as the Kingpin. However, the character known as Wilson Grant Fisk was altered to fit the film. I didn't like it, but his performance drowned my annoyance.

-- The comic-book Kingpin was not Italian to my knowledge; he was as white and fat and rich and powerful as they come, a caricature come to life. He gained his position through money and shrewd skills. He was portrayed as a wealthy man who wanted into the crime syndicate, and got in through money and talent.

--My problems with Halle Berry as ANYTHING, not just super-heroes, is that I don't believe she's a good actress; I've seen her work in Monster's Ball, and that being responsible for her Oscar STILL baffles me. She cannot play anything other than herself. When the part comes with no prior history, there's no problem with it, but then you are portraying an established character, either that character had better be close to the way you really are, or you'd better be a good character actor. I'm glad she's successful, but this trait of sticking her in as many movies as possible like she's Mom's Prize-Winning Chili Sauce That Goes With All Dishes just baffles me - she's not all that, to me.

Heck, I think Queen Latifah is a better actress, though what that says about my ability to pick acting skill I'll let someone else judge. 

--That said, Halle Berry was DEAD-ON in the look for a young Ororo (Storm). However, every time she spoke it grated my suspension of Disbelief. In the first X-men movie, she tried the "African Goddess" approach, and she couldn't pull it off; in the Second X-men movie she was more herself, which while it didn't fit Storm, at least didn't sound so affected and less grating.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 22, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> A random assortment of comments, seasoned _just so_ for your enjoyment:
> 
> --My problems with Halle Berry as ANYTHING, not just super-heroes, is that I don't believe she's a good actress; I've seen her work in Monster's Ball, and that being responsible for her Oscar STILL baffles me. She cannot play anything other than herself.




I have to agree, she is a name and pretty face (body) but that is about it, no acting skills at all.  I feel the same about Ben Aflack, Daredevil was made by the cast, which so far I don't see in the Catwoman movie and Halle is not strong enough to carry a movie without cast support.


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## ForceUser (Sep 22, 2003)

Catwoman's race is irrelevant; I think Hallie Berry would make a fine Selina Kyle visually. The supposed plot of this film makes me groan with frustration, though - an evil cosmetics company? For Pete's sake. Hollywood still thinks geeks will eat the sh-t they're shoveling and ask for seconds. 

As for Michael Clark Duncan as Kingpin, I must say that although I understand why they cast him (size), I was put off a bit by the fact they made him black. As someone else in this thread noted, how exactly does a black man become the capo of an Italian mob? At any rate, I was willing to forgive this error provided that Duncan could convince me, make me _believe_ he was the Kingpin. 

He failed. He was just a big thug in an expensive suit. Duncan lacked the Kingpin's charisma, guile, intellect, and casual brutality. This was partly because of the script, but also a failing of the actor. He just didn't pull it off.

That Flash premise just makes me sigh. WB has this idea that they can run Smallville without ever having to put Clark in the suit. In fact, the producers have gone on record as saying they loathe the suit, and that they have no intention of turning Clark into a costumed Superman. Flash appears to be heading the same route. I think WB is trying to bridge a gap between geek and hip, but geek is getting the short shrift as they mangle our beloved icons to draw in "The OC" crowd. I dislike this direction. In the case of Smallville, what I would enjoy is a long series that chronicles Clark's journey to adulthood and a life dedicated to being Superman. If the producers have no intention of putting him in the tights at the end of the series, I have to ask: 

what's the point?


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 22, 2003)

> As someone else in this thread noted, how exactly does a black man become the capo of an Italian mob?



Ever see "True Romance"?  Dennis Hopper's speech to Christopher Walken should answer all of your questions.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 23, 2003)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> As for Michael Clark Duncan as Kingpin, I must say that although I understand why they cast him (size), I was put off a bit by the fact they made him black. As someone else in this thread noted, how exactly does a black man become the capo of an Italian mob? At any rate, I was willing to forgive this error provided that Duncan could convince me, make me _believe_ he was the Kingpin.



Wait a minute. Forgive me but prior to the film, I've always thought that the Kingpin is the head of an organized crime syndicate, but not a capo de capo of an italian mob family (aka mafia). I must confessed I have not seen _DD_ film lately (although I will acquire the DVD), but did they added that?


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## Ranger REG (Sep 23, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> --That said, Halle Berry was DEAD-ON in the look for a young Ororo (Storm). However, every time she spoke it grated my suspension of Disbelief. In the first X-men movie, she tried the "African Goddess" approach, and she couldn't pull it off; in the Second X-men movie she was more herself, which while it didn't fit Storm, at least didn't sound so affected and less grating.



In the first _X_ film, Bryan wanted to get Angela Bassett to cast as Ororo, who is mature and sophisticated that she can pull off the "African Goddess" persona with ease. Ms. Bassett opted out, so they cast Halle Berry, who is younger. They probably should have rewritten script to take on her persona more than in the comic book. Fortunately, they did so in the second _X_ film script.


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## Villano (Sep 23, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Wait a minute. Forgive me but prior to the film, I've always thought that the Kingpin is the head of an organized crime syndicate, but not a capo de capo of an italian mob family (aka mafia). I must confessed I have not seen _DD_ film lately (although I will acquire the DVD), but did they added that?




I haven't read a Marvel book in 5 years or so, so I'm not certain about how things are now, but they used to describe the organization as the "Maggia".  Obviously, this is a take off of Maffia.  I'm not sure why Marvel didn't just use Maffia.  Maybe Stan Lee was afraid that he'd wake up with a horse's head in his bed. 

The only other Maggia heads I can recall were Silvermane and Hammerhead.  I can't recall what their real names were off-hand, but I'm sure Silvermane's was Italian.  Since Hammerhead's personality was based on old, '30s gangsters, he was probably Italian as well.


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## Villano (Sep 23, 2003)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Catwoman's race is irrelevant; I think Hallie Berry would make a fine Selina Kyle visually. The supposed plot of this film makes me groan with frustration, though - an evil cosmetics company? For Pete's sake. Hollywood still thinks geeks will eat the sh-t they're shoveling and ask for seconds.




I think Berry would look incredible in the rubber suit (especially if they go with the purple one).  I just shudder at her performance in Die Another Day and imagine her doing the same thing here.   

All in all, I'd rather see Rosario Dawson in the role (or at least the rubber suit ).  

Sorry, I just watched Ebert & Roper reviewing The Rundown, the movie she's in with the Rock.  Both her and movie are getting great reviews.


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## Kai Lord (Sep 23, 2003)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> As for Michael Clark Duncan as Kingpin, I must say that although I understand why they cast him (size), I was put off a bit by the fact they made him black.



Its just type-casting.  Duncan made a name for himself playing black guys early in his career, and now those are the only roles he gets.


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 23, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> -- The comic-book Kingpin was not Italian to my knowledge; he was as white and fat and rich and powerful as they come, a caricature come to life. He gained his position through money and shrewd skills. He was portrayed as a wealthy man who wanted into the crime syndicate, and got in through money and talent.





he wasn't fat. It's all muscle. There was another guy that was all flab and trying to muscle in. Kingpin was always running things.
Also, IIRC, Rose, his son was a lot more italian looking. Kingpins large, bald look kind of made him less specific in ethnicity.

Question I don't have an answer to: Were there actually any other non-whites in the Kingpin's association in DD the Movie?


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## Villano (Sep 23, 2003)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> he wasn't fat. It's all muscle. There was another guy that was all flab and trying to muscle in.




I believe that's the Slug, a Miami drug lord.  He used to smother people in the folds of his fat.


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## ForceUser (Sep 23, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Its just type-casting.  Duncan made a name for himself playing black guys early in his career, and now those are the only roles he gets.



Har har.


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## WizarDru (Sep 23, 2003)

Bwa-Ha-Ha!   Oh, that's rich.  LOL.


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## WizarDru (Sep 23, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> I haven't read a Marvel book in 5 years or so, so I'm not certain about how things are now, but they used to describe the organization as the "Maggia". Obviously, this is a take off of Maffia. I'm not sure why Marvel didn't just use Maffia.



This was Marvel in the '70s.  They did a bunch of things like this, to stay within the CCA stamp of approval.  For example, there were no zombies in Marvel titles during the 70s....instead, we had [drumroll......] Zuvembies.  

Really.

There was a lot of legal action going on about even using the term "Mafia" in the 70s, and while it was a hot-button topic, it was also a potentially dangerous and more importantly litigious one.  Back in those days, most of the writers and editors still had the ban clear in their minds.  Remember that Spiderman's 'drug' issues with his friend Harry were extremely contraversial, at the time.

So, instead of the Mafia, we had the Maggia, who was, in fact, just a 'super-gang' of smaller gangs, ruled by a super-secretive star-council.  The Hobgoblin, for example, crashed one of their little secret meetings and confonted the hooded leaders, warning them of a potentially changing order.  To my knowledge, Kingpin was NEVER associated with the Maggia, but in fact was their chief rival.

You can read a good write-up HERE.


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## Villano (Sep 23, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> This was Marvel in the '70s.  They did a bunch of things like this, to stay within the CCA stamp of approval.  For example, there were no zombies in Marvel titles during the 70s....instead, we had [drumroll......] Zuvembies.
> 
> Really.
> 
> ...





I could have sworn that Kingpin was part of the Maggia write up in the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe (along with Justin Hammer and Kingpin's son).  I thought perhaps the link you supplied had a little retroactive rewriting, however, I went back and looked in the OHotMU, and, sure enough, he wasn't.

I realize now that I was thinking of Hydra.  

I still think it's stupid linking Kingpin to Hydra, an evil, world-conquering, super-spy organization.  They're a bit "apples and oranges".  

I'm sure, over the years, writers have messed up and said Kingpin was part of the Maggia, though.  I remember an issue of Spider-Man which had a line about Kingpin meeting with "other Maggia heads" or some such.

BTW, do they still have the Maggia?  It seems about time to just drop it and go with Mafia.


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## Uruk (Sep 25, 2003)

Klaus said:
			
		

> As for the Flash buzz, WB wanted to make a time-travelling show, where the hero goes back in time to set wrongs right. Then someone with a pea for a brain suggested they did a "Smallville" approach with the Flash. He's a young Gothamite (!!!!) who can run so fast, he can travel through time (!!!!),




Well, in the 60s he used to do that all the time via a time treadmill.


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## Klaus (Sep 25, 2003)

Uruk said:
			
		

> Well, in the 60s he used to do that all the time via a time treadmill.




Yes, the Cosmic Treadmill, which caused him to travel between dimensions (to meet Flash I) and through time (where he married longtime girlfriend Iris West). That ability was the reason the Anti-Monitor kidnapped Flash in the beginning of Crisis, to keep him from coordinating time-spanning resistance to the Antimatter Universe attack.

That became a relic when Wally West mastered time-travelling, but it's never a lightly-taken decision, and everytime Wally runs that fast, he risks losing himself into the Speed Force (the energy field where all speedsters draw their kinetic energy from).

That still doesn't make this "Flash"-show a good idea...


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## jdavis (Sep 25, 2003)

Well this thread took a unexpected turn, look it doesn't matter if Michael Clark Duncan played Catwoman when you are talking about fighting a "evil cosmetics company". Could somebody explain to me how a cosmetics company could be "evil"? Do they have a eyeliner pencil that will allow them to take over the world? hypno-nail polish? Plastic explosive lipstick? It doesn't matter who is in the movie about evil cosmetics it's going to be bad. Although I'd go see it if Michael Clark Duncan played catwoman, that would be a riot.

By the way, Directed by: Pitof? Who or what is a Pitof?


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## ColonelHardisson (Sep 26, 2003)

Sirius_Black said:
			
		

> Even with that fact, she still would look better in the leather than Halle.




Bearing in mind this is all just personal taste, I have to say I totally and utterly disagree with you  Ashley Judd is great looking, but Halle Berry in a cat suit...wow. I'm all for that. What I'm not so sure about is that plot synopsis/tidbit.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 26, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> Could somebody explain to me how a cosmetics company could be "evil"?



You ask me, they're all evil.  Even if you take away the whole animal testing thing, you're talking about an industry that basically preys on women's physical insecurities.  My girlfriend looks beautiful and she never needs to touch the stuff.

Sorry for the rant.  Cosmetics make me angry.


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## jdavis (Sep 26, 2003)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> You ask me, they're all evil. Even if you take away the whole animal testing thing, you're talking about an industry that basically preys on women's physical insecurities. My girlfriend looks beautiful and she never needs to touch the stuff.
> 
> Sorry for the rant. Cosmetics make me angry.



Well animal testing really isn't evil when your doing it to make sure your product isn't harmful to humans (misguided yes, but not evil), and as far as preying on a women's physical insecurities, well that wouldn't make for much of a exciting superhero flick, Catwoman 2 she could go after the "evil" diet industry.


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## Sirius_Black (Sep 26, 2003)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Bearing in mind this is all just personal taste, I have to say I totally and utterly disagree with you  Ashley Judd is great looking, but Halle Berry in a cat suit...wow. I'm all for that. What I'm not so sure about is that plot synopsis/tidbit.




Nothing wrong with differences in taste and it certainly isn't a matter of race with me. I just never have found Halle Berry to be the all that many proscribe her to be.  Now Vanessa Williams......(YUM!).  However, she's too old for a movie like this one which will cater to the teen audience in every way, shape, and form.


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Sep 30, 2003)

Here is an image of what the new costume is supposed to look like.








Not quite sure what to say about it.  Well other than... Ummmm...


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## stevelabny (Sep 30, 2003)

Psychotic Dreamer said:
			
		

> Not quite sure what to say about it.  Well other than... Ummmm...




oooh..i know...
isnt this the same Halle Berry who made some sorta " i only took the loser superhero Storm role because theres no good roles for black actresses?"

this costume oughta get her some respect.
especially those ears.

i really wanna make a tasteless david justice joke right now... but i'll just wuss out and leave it to your imagination.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 30, 2003)

That has to be a joke.


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## Henry (Sep 30, 2003)

I'm not sure whether to grunt, snort, titter, or giggle.

Oh, heck, I'll just do 'em all! 

(Followed by a vigorous head shake.)


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Sep 30, 2003)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> That has to be a joke.




It would be nice if it was a joke.  I got the image from cinescape.com who are usually pretty good.  Only time will tell...

:shudder:


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 30, 2003)

Psychotic Dreamer said:
			
		

> It would be nice if it was a joke.  I got the image from cinescape.com who are usually pretty good.  Only time will tell...
> 
> :shudder:




Look like you MAY have to be into S&M to see this movie.


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## Villano (Sep 30, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> this costume oughta get her some respect.
> especially those ears.




And the boots.  Remember, when fighting crime, always wear open-toed shoes.  They not only make kicking easier, but turn every puddle into an adventure!

Now, when are they going to release pictures of Sharon Stone's evil cosmetic company owner?  Maybe, to emphasis just how evil she is, they'll have her clothing made of the pelts of rare animals...

"See my loafers, former gophers..."

With the way this movie's turning out, I'm expecting oversized props (ala the tv series), and a musical number.  Apparently, they aren't happy just killing the Batman franchise...


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## Sirius_Black (Sep 30, 2003)

The minute I saw this photo on another site, I thought of this thread.    Let me just commend everyone who has responded so far to the photo with a post. You have shown incredible restraint.   

I just read an interview with Ashley Judd where this movie is mentioned. Turns out, she was the one who left so she could play Maggie in Cat on the Hot Tin Roof.  Talk about smart move.

As for this "photo," I'll simply stand by my previous statement.  Huge opening weekend where everyone comes out to see Halle followed by a drop off the second weekend of Hulk proportion.


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## Sirius_Black (Sep 30, 2003)

Psychotic Dreamer said:
			
		

> It would be nice if it was a joke.  I got the image from cinescape.com who are usually pretty good.  Only time will tell...
> 
> :shudder:




It's real, Entertainment Tonight had it. I think Access Hollywood as well. Before it's over, I think many fans that anticipated this movie will wish it was all a joke or just a really bad dream ala Bobby from the 80's TV show, Dallas.


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## Ghostwind (Sep 30, 2003)

Just when Halle Berry was getting respect in the industry, along comes this incredibly bad career move. The costume alone makes me shudder, not to mention the plot/storyline. I'm betting this will wind up making Batman & Robin look like a masterpiece of art by the time it's done. Guess George Clooney won't have to continue to take credit for single-handedly sinking the Batman franchise...


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 30, 2003)

You WILL like this movie!  Say it!


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## Ranger REG (Sep 30, 2003)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Just when Halle Berry was getting respect in the industry, along comes this incredibly bad career move. The costume alone makes me shudder, not to mention the plot/storyline. I'm betting this will wind up making Batman & Robin look like a masterpiece of art by the time it's done. Guess George Clooney won't have to continue to take credit for single-handedly sinking the Batman franchise...



Actually, it started taking on water when Val Kilmer don the cowl.

As for bad career moves, many well-known actors adored by the (yecch!) mainstream have their fair share of bad movies and they still come out on top. Obviously, she's not doing _Catwoman_ as an Oscar potential, but to be constantly employed. While she now have a household name, it doesn't mean she's at the level where can take her sweet time like two or five years between jobs poring over scripts sent to her (especially when your husband is a musician).


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## Stormfalcon (Sep 30, 2003)

Actually, neither Val Kilmer nor George Clooney single-handedly took down the franchise.  That dubious honor lies at the director of both of the films those actors were in: Joel Schumacher.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 30, 2003)

In a way, I agree with you.


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## Ghostwind (Sep 30, 2003)

Stormfalcon said:
			
		

> Actually, neither Val Kilmer nor George Clooney single-handedly took down the franchise. That dubious honor lies at the director of both of the films those actors were in: Joel Schumacher.



True. But Clooney has jokingly stated in more than one television interview as being the person responsible for killing the bat franchise.


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## jdavis (Oct 1, 2003)

So instead of a evil cosmetics company it's a _naughty_ cosmetics company

Well I think I've seen enough to just let this one pass on by without a glance (like I should of done the 4th Batman movie).


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## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 1, 2003)

I was going to hunt down that photo and put it up on the thread, but obviously I've been beaten too it.

Before I saw that, I thought this was going to be a bad film. Now, I think it's going to be a cult classic. Surely it can't be this bad on purpose? Surely someone involved can turn round and say "Hey, wait a minute. This is going to sink without a trace!"

Halle Berry's name is all that's saving this from straight-to-video, as far as I can see.


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## Wormwood (Oct 2, 2003)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> Halle Berry's name is all that's saving this from straight-to-video, as far as I can see.



I'm having heavy Black Scorpion flashbacks just thinking about it.


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## Endur (Oct 2, 2003)

Ummm, nope!  The Catwoman in Batman: Year One was very kickbutt and very butch, but she was not African-American.



			
				Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Just to further muddy things, remember that the Catwoman in Batman: Year One was clearly African-American.  And a pretty kickbutt Catwoman, too.


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## Acmite (Oct 3, 2003)

*jonrog1 writing Catwoman?*

Here's the link:  http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2003-10/02/08.00.games

Does this mean there's hope for Catwoman yet?

jonrog1, if you see this....is there anything that you can tell us about it?  From what I've read, the Catwoman movie has nothing to do with Batman or the Bat-universe (eg: Catwoman is not Selina Kyle).  Was this because of the rights to the Catwoman v. Batman properties, or was this a creative decision?

Is it a straight-up action movie, or will it be a comic-book movie?  Are we likely to see cameos?

Thanks!


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## Henry (Oct 3, 2003)

Quoting from Piratecat's earlier post:



> So, you guys may not realize it, but our own John Rogers (JonRog1, writer of The Core and Jackie Chan Adventures and some damn cool story hours) wrote an earlier treatment of the script. I believe they thanked him, paid him, and then changed it beyond recognition by giving it to the guys who wrote T3.
> 
> He'd have to tell us the details, though, and I'm not sure he can. Let's just say that I trust his judgment and comic-book sense more than I do that of a director who previously has only done visual effects.




and with that, I'll also merge the two, especially since it's still on the front page.


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## Acmite (Oct 5, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> Quoting from Piratecat's earlier post:
> 
> 
> 
> and with that, I'll also merge the two, especially since it's still on the front page.




Oops!  Totally missed that.  Thanks, Henry.


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## DanMcS (Oct 6, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Not to sidetrack things here, but if there should be a _Nick Fury_ movie, they should take their cue from the _Ultimate_ line, and make him African-American.




Hah.  I've really only read the "Ultimate" comic lines, so up until you said that, I had no idea the character wasn't always black.  I actually caught part of the Hasslehoff movie on SciFi a couple months ago and was surprised that they made Fury a white guy for the movie.


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## Endur (Oct 6, 2003)

Actually, if they make a Nick Fury movie, they ought to move it back to WW2 ("Nick Fury and His Howling Commandos") and involve Captain America.  The CA/Nick Fury stories were always best when set back in WW2.

The problem with a SHIELD movie is nobody who is not part of the comic book audience will have any idea who or what SHIELD is.  The CIA or the Army is a generic organization that works so much better in movies than SHIELD.





			
				DanMcS said:
			
		

> Hah.  I've really only read the "Ultimate" comic lines, so up until you said that, I had no idea the character wasn't always black.  I actually caught part of the Hasslehoff movie on SciFi a couple months ago and was surprised that they made Fury a white guy for the movie.


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## Ranger REG (Oct 7, 2003)

Actually, the movie (if it will be produced) should focus on Nick Fury the character, from his WWII days with the Howling Commandos to his current assignment as head of SHIELD.


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## Klaus (Oct 17, 2003)

Just to make matters worse:

Patience Price discovers a dark secret about the evil cosmetics company and gets murdered.. But she is brought back from the dead by the egyptian cat GOD (!!!!????!!!!) Mao (!!!!????!!!!) as Catwoman.

In Letterman, Halle Berry said she won't have any powers, just the abilities of a tiger or a large cat. Er... aren't those "powers"?


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## Mercule (Oct 18, 2003)

Klaus said:
			
		

> JPatience Price discovers a dark secret about the evil cosmetics company and gets murdered.. But she is brought back from the dead by the egyptian cat GOD (!!!!????!!!!) Mao (!!!!????!!!!) as Catwoman.



Mao??  Did she mean "Meow"?  *chuckle*  Whatever, not like this is going to degrade my opinion of the flick any more.



> In Letterman, Halle Berry said she won't have any powers, just the abilities of a tiger or a large cat. Er... aren't those "powers"?



Hey, at least she never made claim to having any mental super powers.  Y'know, this gal needs to learn the maxim: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool that to speak and remove all doubt."  It's like a female Dan Quayle.


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## Villano (Oct 18, 2003)

Y'know, I have to say that I think Halle Berry is a very beautiful woman.  When it comes to her acting and film choices, otoh....

It all reminds me of an ad for a website.  It had a picture of Natasha Henstrige (sp?) looking hot in a bikini.  Underneath the pic, it said, "Don't be fooled.  Most of her movies suck."

*shakes head*

Anyway, who are we kidding?  I think most of us will see it even if just for the "how bad can it get" factor.  Personally, I have the feeling this is going to topple Batman & Robin from the "worst superhero film of all time" category.


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## Viking Bastard (Oct 18, 2003)

Endur said:
			
		

> Ummm, nope!  The Catwoman in Batman: Year One was very kickbutt and very butch, but she was not African-American.



Exactly. David Mazzucchelli has touched upon this many times. The 
idea was for Selina to be exotic, not black.


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## barsoomcore (Oct 20, 2003)

You know, every time I see Ms. Berry I think of her miserable performances in X-Men and James Bond and I just wonder "what are people thinking?"

She's so bad. She absolutely, completely and totally sucks. And every comment I hear from her is some big complaint about how hard it all is and how she has to take sucky parts in comic book movies --

GET A REAL JOB, MS. BERRY, IF YOU HATE IT SO MUCH. DO US ALL A FAVOUR AND STOP ACTING.

PLEASE.


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## Endur (Oct 20, 2003)

Oh I think some of the Captain America movies from the 70's and the Punisher from the 80's could give serious competition to "Batman and Robin."  And there were various superhero movies in the 70's and early 80's that were so bad they skipped being released and went straight to TV.



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> Anyway, who are we kidding?  I think most of us will see it even if just for the "how bad can it get" factor.  Personally, I have the feeling this is going to topple Batman & Robin from the "worst superhero film of all time" category.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Oct 20, 2003)

Endur said:
			
		

> Oh I think some of the Captain America movies from the 70's and the Punisher from the 80's could give serious competition to "Batman and Robin."  And there were various superhero movies in the 70's and early 80's that were so bad they skipped being released and went straight to TV.




Fantastic Four comes to mind...


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## Agamon (Oct 20, 2003)

Aw, geez, that sounds absolutely horrible.  How did Warner learn anything from Marvel?  Take your character and completely change so that the only thing recognizable about it is the name?  When did Marvel do that?

Next they'll remake Superman by casting Antonio Banderas for him and make the character a womanizing junkie human that gets his powers from a radioactive explosion.  He skulks the streets hunting the vermin that would prey on the helpless.


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## Villano (Oct 20, 2003)

Endur said:
			
		

> Oh I think some of the Captain America movies from the 70's and the Punisher from the 80's could give serious competition to "Batman and Robin."  And there were various superhero movies in the 70's and early 80's that were so bad they skipped being released and went straight to TV.




Punisher isn't really _that_ bad all things considered. 

Anyway, what make B&A  the worst of all time is the fact that, unlike the movies you mentioned, it had a huge budget and big name stars.  In fact, if you combined the budgets of the 2 Cap movies, the Cap movie from the '90s (with the Italian Red Skull), Fantastic Four, and The Punisher, you would only cover about half of the catering cost on B&A.

I cut more slack to really bad movies made on the cheap than I do brainless, bloated movies with a budget that could keep afloat a third world nation for a year.  

But what really blows my mind about B&A is the script.  Studio execs greenlit it and the stars read it and wanted to be in this movie.  Did they actually think, "Wow, this is really great!  I've got to be a part of it!"?


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## Villano (Oct 20, 2003)

Agamon said:
			
		

> Aw, geez, that sounds absolutely horrible.  How did Warner learn anything from Marvel?  Take your character and completely change so that the only thing recognizable about it is the name?  When did Marvel do that?





The Captain America movies from the '70s.  They changed his origin and costume.  I'm not sure he was even Steve Rodgers either.

Come to think of it, poor Cap has never had much luck in film.  The 90s version turned the Red Skull Italian and altered a bunch of other things, and there was a movie serial back in the 40s in which Cap lost the wings on his mask, his ears were covered, he had no shield, and had a totally different secret identity (he was a D.A. but I don't recall the name).


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## Villano (Oct 20, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Fantastic Four comes to mind...




The FF videos are all bootlegs, IIRC.  FF was never intended to be released.  It was all a scam to hang onto the rights longer.


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## Viking Bastard (Oct 20, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> But what really blows my mind about B&A is the script.  Studio execs greenlit it and the stars read it and wanted to be in this movie.  Did they actually think, "Wow, this is really great!  I've got to be a part of it!"?



I've read an earlier version of the script by Akiva Goldsman, it was a much 
much better story. On page Mr. Freeze was a really chillin' fellow (BADDA-
BAMBUMTISH!) and while I remember Ivy having a different and less stupid 
part in the story, I can't remember what it is. There was no Bats-don't-trust
-Robin subplot and while Alfred was sick, it actually played some importance 
to the main plot (something to do with Ivy, not Fries). And it was dark. Not
Batman Returns dark, but dark enough and rid of those stupid pizza and credit
card quips.

Granted, Bane was still a schmuck, Batgirl was there and it had pretty much
the same grand finale (the ice skates) with some slight modifications. But 
it still puzzles me they _changed_ this for what's on screen.   

It just ain't right, that is!


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## Agamon (Oct 20, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> The Captain America movies from the '70s.  They changed his origin and costume.  I'm not sure he was even Steve Rodgers either.
> 
> Come to think of it, poor Cap has never had much luck in film.  The 90s version turned the Red Skull Italian and altered a bunch of other things, and there was a movie serial back in the 40s in which Cap lost the wings on his mask, his ears were covered, he had no shield, and had a totally different secret identity (he was a D.A. but I don't recall the name).




Okay, I meant, recently.  I doubt Warner was looking at an old 70's movie that grossed $377.83, and exclaimed, "Let's do that!"


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## Villano (Oct 20, 2003)

Agamon said:
			
		

> Okay, I meant, recently.  I doubt Warner was looking at an old 70's movie that grossed $377.83, and exclaimed, "Let's do that!"




No, they were looking at on old '60s tv series starring Adam West and exclaimed, "Let's do that...but without the good stuff!"


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