# Mass Effect - "the" Xbox360 title to get



## horacethegrey (Sep 17, 2007)

Apologies if there was a thread on this before. Looked through the archives and didn't see one. If there was, apologies again.

I know everyone's been salivating over the upcoming release of _Halo 3_ (that's a bit of an understatement really. It seems the whole universe is yearning for it  ). And while I do like what I've seen of Bungie's game, it hasn't impressed me in the way that the 360's *other * upcoming shooter has. A shooter made by, of all people, those RPG maestro themselves *Bioware*. 

I just can't get over the fact how awesome _Mass Effect_ looks and plays. A shooter RPG? I'll admit I had my doubts about it (then again, I had my doubts too whether Bioware could actually make a game based on Chinese mythology work. And looked how that turned out.  ), but after seeing the numerous videos of the game in action, I'm convinced Bioware has another instant classic on their hands. 

How this game comes out and is received will determine my purchase of the 360 in the future. I so want this game to be good. Anyone share my thoughts?  You can check out vids of _Mass Effect_ on gametrailers here , or go to the official site .


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## Grog (Sep 17, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> A shooter RPG? I'll admit I had my doubts about it



It was done back in 2000 with _Deus Ex_.


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## trancejeremy (Sep 17, 2007)

I hope it's good, because I'll probably get a 360 sooner rather than later. But I really was very disappointed with Jade Empire, so I'm not getting my hopes up about this.  

It actually reminds me more of Starflight (the very old PC game) than anything else. With more of a plot and RPG aspect. But how you fly around the galaxy and explore planets.

I'm also a bit concerned about the nature of the universe. I don't generally like sci-fi where aliens are dominant, or at least, humans aren't prominent. Rarely are aliens actually alien, rather than excagerated steretypes usually based on some aspect of Earth culture (like war-like samurai aliens) but if they are truly alien, then the depth of interaction you can have with them is somewhat limited, because they are alien.


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## takyris (Sep 17, 2007)

I think that Deus Ex is a great comparison. It's not a first-person shooter, but you can try to play it like one (and some few people might succeed, albeit with some pain). The way most people are expected to play is with a rhythm that goes something like "shootshootshootPAUSE, okay, I can take that guy down, my squad can take out that dude over there, and I'll select this ability to fire off at that turret to disable it for a few seconds... aaaaaand GO".

So there's a strong roleplaying element in terms of tactics and strategy, not to mention customization at level-up and story and all the usual stuff. If you tried to play without increasing any of your skills, you'd be in a world of hurt.

In any event, if anyone has questions, I'm around.  I can't say anything that isn't public knowledge, but I can answer most questions about gameplay at this point, because people have seen that.


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 17, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> I know everyone's been salivating over the upcoming release of _Halo 3_ (that's a bit of an understatement really. It seems the whole universe is yearning for it  ). And while I do like what I've seen of Bungie's game, it hasn't impressed me in the way that the 360's *other * upcoming shooter has.





I'm getting both, Halo3 would have to really drop the ball to not live up to expectations, so the excitement is real. Mass Effect I'm a bit more cautious of. It looks like it could be a great game, but there's a lot of room for it to fall, so hard to judge.

Either way, I'm expecting KotOR or better.


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## horacethegrey (Sep 17, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I hope it's good, because I'll probably get a 360 sooner rather than later. But I really was very disappointed with Jade Empire, so I'm not getting my hopes up about this.



Forgive if I don't agree with you, but I thought _Jade Empire_ was fantastic. 



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> In any event, if anyone has questions, I'm around. I can't say anything that isn't public knowledge, but I can answer most questions about gameplay at this point, because people have seen that.



I take it you're part of the development team then?


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## takyris (Sep 18, 2007)

I was, from late October to late June. Now I'm off of M.E. and on an unannounced project (still at BioWare). I don't have the battle scars of the guys pulling the all-nighters for the past couple months (although as a writer, my need to pull all-nighters at this stage of the game were shaky at best, which is why I was given back to the project that had lent me to M.E. last year, when a writer WAS necessary), but I was there for a good chunk of time, and I'm in the credits and everything.

So, short version: yes. Writer, so not much programming-fu on my end, but I can answer most common gameplay questions without making an idiot of myself.


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## horacethegrey (Sep 18, 2007)

That's nice. Okay. Got a question then. When Bioware first unveiled the game, they stated that one of the key features was the ability to interrupt conversations with NPCs. So far, none of the game videos I've seen has shown this feature in action. So, is it still in the game or was it removed altogether?


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## takyris (Sep 18, 2007)

It's in, but "it" doesn't do a whole lot that hasn't been done before. Say somebody is giving a line, and at the end of the line, you have the usual range of responses. You now have two ways to handle that:

1) The normal way, which means that even if you hit the choice while the speaker is still talking, your character will wait until the speaker is finished, and then respond immediately (for a cinematic feel).

2) The interruption way, which means that you cut the speaker off in the middle of their line with your own line.

They don't react to it. They don't notice it. It's not a tracked variable. I, frankly, don't know why that was listed as a cool feature, ever. Maybe it was on the to-do list, and then they realized that they'd bitten off a big bunch of work with the new dialog system all by itself, and adding interrupts (that NPCs notice and care about) was a big enough layer of complexity that it was cut. Maybe someone in marketing misread a feature and stated as fact something that was never intended. I have no idea.

Regardless, there you go. You can interrupt, but it doesn't mean anything. It might feel cool, but it's not going to be tracked as something you did in the game.


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## horacethegrey (Sep 18, 2007)

Alrighty then. Thanks for the heads up.  I'll pop back if I have anymore questions.


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 18, 2007)

Most of the guys who worked with us at DLA and left for BioWare have worked as developers on the core team for Mass Effect.

Their own reports on the game - namely, that they have played it through this past month and are loving it - has me hugely excited about this game.

If you think they are being "well of course" about it. No. In fact, the rule in the game dev business is that by this time in a dev cycle, you are bloody sick to death of a game. And believe me, most Bio employees I know can't stand any damn game they worked on by this point in the dev cycle.  They just want to move on.

But not this time.

Even without this inside hype, this was one of my two most anticipated title of the year, hands down.  Along with _The Witcher_ this is on my must have list for 2007.


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## TwistedBishop (Sep 18, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> Now I'm off of M.E. and on an unannounced project (still at BioWare).





They already announced the Halo MMO, didn't they?  Feel free to talk about it.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 18, 2007)

Mass Effect looks like the kind of game I could really get behind... if only I owned an xBox!

I don't imagine it will ever be available for the PC, but I suppose I can hope... 

EDIT: to clarify... this isn't a moaning post about it not being on the PC. This is a "Wow, that looks brilliant, I wish I could afford an xbox" post


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## takyris (Sep 18, 2007)

TwistedBishop: You kill me, man. You kill me.

PS: I hear you. I imagine that there'll be a PC version someday, just like there was for Jade Empire. I just hope it isn't too late, that the field hasn't moved on to newer tech by the time it rolls around (as, arguably, it did with Jade).

The only reason I got a 360 was to be able to play a game with my name in the credits.  Although, to be fair, I'm getting some quality BioShock time while waiting.


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## trancejeremy (Sep 18, 2007)

Looks like it was rated in the UK as "12", the US equivalent of "Teen"

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=191350

(Caution: Link has some minor spoilers and bad language)


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 18, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> EDIT: to clarify... this isn't a moaning post about it not being on the PC. This is a "Wow, that looks brilliant, I wish I could afford an xbox" post





I see ad's all the time on the internet saying you can get a free xbox 360, so I must assume you're just being lazy!


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## Deuce Traveler (Sep 19, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> It's in, but "it" doesn't do a whole lot that hasn't been done before. Say somebody is giving a line, and at the end of the line, you have the usual range of responses. You now have two ways to handle that:
> 
> 1) The normal way, which means that even if you hit the choice while the speaker is still talking, your character will wait until the speaker is finished, and then respond immediately (for a cinematic feel).
> 
> ...




Too bad no one has made a game where you can interrupt a NPC's dialogue with a bullet or crossbow bolt.   That would be a great way to stop a BBEG's monologue.


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## takyris (Sep 19, 2007)

Deuce Traveler said:
			
		

> Too bad no one has made a game where you can interrupt a NPC's dialogue with a bullet or crossbow bolt.   That would be a great way to stop a BBEG's monologue.




Oh, you can do that.  There are at least a couple of places where "Shoot him" is a dialog option, and you can most definitely cut off some annoying ranting with a bullet to the face.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Sep 19, 2007)

I was astounded by the look and feel of the character creation screen, and the short dialog scene that followed on Game Trailers.  I'm very excited for this game.  Not sure that I'll be able to scrape any money together for an XBox, but I'm going to try.


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## SubMensa (Sep 21, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> Oh, you can do that.  There are at least a couple of places where "Shoot him" is a dialog option, and you can most definitely cut off some annoying ranting with a bullet to the face.




This game just went from my Must Have list to my Really Really Must Have list. I can't count the number of times I wanted to just shoot the windbag who just wouldn't shut up about their plan.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 22, 2007)

This is definitely a must play for me, but I don't have an XBox 360.  I have a friend with two, I may see if I can borrow one, just to play ME.  Otherwise, I'm not going to buy a console for one game... even if it's Bioware.


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## WhatGravitas (Sep 23, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I hope it's good, because I'll probably get a 360 sooner rather than later. But I really was very disappointed with Jade Empire, so I'm not getting my hopes up about this.



Huh? _Jade Empire_ was great (though I only played the PC version), what wasn't good about it?

And seriously, after the last BioWare games, I cannot imagine that Mass Effect could be bad in any way! (well, it could be for PC... *shrug*)

Cheers, LT.


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## trancejeremy (Sep 23, 2007)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Huh? _Jade Empire_ was great (though I only played the PC version), what wasn't good about it?




I thought it was a very shallow game.  The combat, for instance, was too actiony and there wasn't a whole lot of depth to your characters (Something I think will even be worse in Mass Effect).  It was short, indeed, I thought it seemed half-finished (I'm done already?).  Even the ending was short. The setting was a great idea, but the characters in the game were largely forgetable. The xbox version suffered from horrible loading times.


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## horacethegrey (Sep 24, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I thought it was a very shallow game.  The combat, for instance, was too actiony and *there wasn't a whole lot of depth to your characters* (Something I think will even be worse in Mass Effect).  It was short, indeed, I thought it seemed half-finished (I'm done already?).  Even the ending was short. The setting was a great idea, but the characters in the game were largely forgetable. The xbox version suffered from horrible loading times.



No depth? You're telling me that those long talks with the likes of Kang the Mad, Wild Flower, Sky or even Henpecked Hou did nothing for you? Each of them had such complex and wonderful backstories (sometimes hilarious, in the case of Hou  ). Even that homicidal brute Black Whirlwind had some real depth to him in the end. 

As for the combat, I thought it was a good idea to make it a bit more action oriented. Sure it could have been a horrible mess had Bioware screwed it up, but I thought they did it quite well.  And I think it was nice evolution from a standard RPG engine.


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 24, 2007)

I liked Jade Empire also, not sure how it did. (I guess it did well enough for a PC version to come out...)

Different strides, I thought FEAR was a great game with a good backstory, other folks I know said it didn't HAVE a backstory...


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## takyris (Sep 24, 2007)

Jade was the last game I got to play with a clean palate. Everything after Jade is gonna be something that I've either had a hand in or at least heard the dirty laundry about. 

I liked it, but mileage is gonna vary for everyone. People who wanted a hardcore fighting game were disappointed when the combat wasn't very difficult by action standards, and people who wanted a deep tactical RPG combat system were disappointed when the tactical aspect was traded for action. It was a deliberate choice made to keep the game simple enough for traditional RPG people, but there were strong arguments on both sides.

It worked for me -- I play a lot of RPGs, but not as many action games, so the difficulty was just right for me.

I don't know the exact sales numbers offhand, but if I'm remembering right, it was (is) around a million. Not a smash hit, but very strong for a) a new IP that was b) coming out on a soon-to-be-retired console.


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## horacethegrey (Sep 24, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> I liked it, but mileage is gonna vary for everyone. People who wanted a hardcore fighting game were disappointed when the combat wasn't very difficult by action standards, and people who wanted a deep tactical RPG combat system were disappointed when the tactical aspect was traded for action. It was a deliberate choice made to keep the game simple enough for traditional RPG people, but there were strong arguments on both sides.



Have to say it wasn't the gameplay aspects that made go wow over the game, but the story. _Jade Empire_ hands down had the most epic and moving storyline that I've ever had the pleasure of taking part in an RPG. And no, I'm not ashamed to admit that the good ending moved me to tears.


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## WhatGravitas (Sep 24, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> No depth? You're telling me that those long talks with the likes of Kang the Mad, Wild Flower, Sky or even Henpecked Hou did nothing for you? Each of them had such complex and wonderful backstories (sometimes hilarious, in the case of Hou  ). Even that homicidal brute Black Whirlwind had some real depth to him in the end.



Hmm... perhaps that was a problem of the game: The stories were very sidequested. Unless you dug deeper, you've got close to nothing about most of them. I'm a compulsive sidequest player and dug Kang, so I got a lot of mileage out of it, as well as my girl-friend, who digs the atmosphere and the story very much (but then, she's a bit otaku-anime-japan-crazy).

For the combat system: It was a fresh breeze of air - it was unexpected and a nice middle ground between RPG and action, though I see why people may dislike it.

Well, I'm still hoping for a Mass Effect for PC...

Cheers, LT.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2007)

-Uncloak-

A 20 minute Featurette trailer, of Mass Effect-

-Recloak-


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## Felon (Oct 6, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> I was, from late October to late June. Now I'm off of M.E. and on an unannounced project (still at BioWare). I don't have the battle scars of the guys pulling the all-nighters for the past couple months (although as a writer, my need to pull all-nighters at this stage of the game were shaky at best, which is why I was given back to the project that had lent me to M.E. last year, when a writer WAS necessary), but I was there for a good chunk of time, and I'm in the credits and everything.
> 
> So, short version: yes. Writer, so not much programming-fu on my end, but I can answer most common gameplay questions without making an idiot of myself.



Thanks again, Takyris. My main concern has to do with the FPS portion of the game. I've always been puzzled at how popular FPS's are on a console that doesn't have a mouse accessory--thumbpads are lousy for work that requires both speed and accuracy IMO.

Now, I think you've already addressed this somewhat in a previous post, but how much time do you think players will spend just wasting ammo hitting nothing? IBioshock had a lot of great gameplay features, but the FPS element soured me on it. I could not understand why they'd have highly-mobile enemies bobbing and weaving to evade shots that aren't easy to make in the first place. I know in ME that there are bad guys that scales walls and hop around a lot. Is there any auto-aiming that assists a player? Or is the need for accuracy minimized by things like explosives, homing weapons, spraying with automatic fire, and using the various tech and biotic powers?

I'm much more interested in exploration and problem-solving than killing stuff, so I hope the action part is nice and streamlined.


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## takyris (Oct 7, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Thanks again, Takyris. My main concern has to do with the FPS portion of the game. I've always been puzzled at how popular FPS's are on a console that doesn't have a mouse accessory--thumbpads are lousy for work that requires both speed and accuracy IMO.




I guess it's what you're raised on. I know people who have no trouble with things like Halo (or even Rainbow Six) on the Xbox. I am, frankly, pretty bad either way, so when I wasted a metric ton of ammo on a splicer in BioShock on the 360, I didn't think, "Man, I wish I was using a mouse," as much as I thought, "Ah, Patrick, you still can't aim."



> Now, I think you've already addressed this somewhat in a previous post, but how much time do you think players will spend just wasting ammo hitting nothing? IBioshock had a lot of great gameplay features, but the FPS element soured me on it. I could not understand why they'd have highly-mobile enemies bobbing and weaving to evade shots that aren't easy to make in the first place. I know in ME that there are bad guys that scales walls and hop around a lot. Is there any auto-aiming that assists a player? Or is the need for accuracy minimized by things like explosives, homing weapons, spraying with automatic fire, and using the various tech and biotic powers?




This is where I'm on shaky ground, because that stuff was being iterated on well after I left. My understanding (and take this is rumor, not gospel) is that there are a few important things that would address your issue. First, you can pause at will in order to adjust your aim (not just pausing to go to the bathroom, but pausing in a tactical mode that lets you adjust your aim and tell your followers what powers to fire off)... so while guys will be running around all crazy-style, you can still pause to get a lock on 'em.

Second, I believe that there is some form of aim-assist. When I was there, it was weird, in that it only kicked in when you were locked on someone and only lasted until you moved the trigger yourself (like cruise control only lasting until you hit the brake). This ended up giving people who wanted targeting assistance good help, but only if they were patient enough to lock on and then let go of the thumbstick. It took a little getting used to, and I'm pretty sure that it doesn't work that way now (although once it was explained to me, it worked just fine, and the issue would likely have been solvable with a decent tutorial GUI). Whatever there is now, it's at least that or better -- so if you lock onto somebody, it's easy to keep shooting at them.

Third, there's no ammo for you to worry about. (There are other balance features that keep you from wandering through the entire level with the trigger held down, but you'll never run out of ammo.) I know that's not the core of your issue, but I thought it was worth mentioning.



> I'm much more interested in exploration and problem-solving than killing stuff, so I hope the action part is nice and streamlined.




I won't lie: there's a whole bunch of combat. But if you want to put points into Persuade, you'll be able to avoid some nasty fights (often with better results than going in with guns blazin' would have gotten you).


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## horacethegrey (Nov 19, 2007)

Hey folks, the review is up on Gametrailers.

9.5? I am so getting this game.


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## Thanee (Nov 20, 2007)

That looks really good, yep. 

Hope they won't take too long to port it to the PC (as far as I see, it's only a question of when) and hopefully they will sort out the few small technical deficiencies then, too.

Bye
Thanee


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## trancejeremy (Nov 20, 2007)

Hmmmm, PCWorld gave it a 60/100

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,139724-page,1-c,games/article.html

Probably sour grapes, but it also sounds like it's Jade Empire in space.

(If you want to read the PC World review, but don't want to scroll though 16!!!!!!! pages (1 paragraph per page) try this

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8656981&postcount=156

(Some language at the end from the poster who copy and pasted it, he was a bit irked at the effort)

Though the ironic thing is, that first page is still probably as long as typical 1up reviews. I dunno how they get away with that.


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## horacethegrey (Nov 20, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Hmmmm, PCWorld gave it a 60/100



 What business does a PC gaming magazine have in reviewing a console title?

I mean, sure, everyone's entitled to make their own criticism of the game. But the source of this critique leaves me feeling a bit suspect. :\


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## GoodKingJayIII (Nov 20, 2007)

The guys over at Penny Arcade have done a few comics on the game over the past week.  While they certainly seem to enjoy the overall scope of the story, it sounds as though Mass Effect is full of horribly frustrating quirks, like a befuddling menu system and never-ending load times.  Obviously everyone's got their own opinions, but I've come to trust these guys because often their opinions align with mine

I'll still be picking up the title, because I loves me some Bioware, but I think Assassin's Creed will be my next purchase for the 360.


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## takyris (Nov 20, 2007)

I wouldn't say "Horribly."  But yes, first game in the tech-stream, done on an engine that was still being completed as we worked on the game, so there are definitely some hiccups. And the elevators get old. I'm the guy who wrote the banter and news-vids to try to make the elevators seem less dull.

The game's averaging 93 on Metacritic right now (30 reviews), which implies that it does more things right (and some of those things right-er than they've ever been done before) than it does wrong.

If you have a 360 already, it's currently the 6th-highest-rated 360 game on Metacritic (behind a few well-established IPs, Rock Band, and BioShock, and hats off to them). That's still comfortably in "safe buy if you like RPGs and buy 3 or more games per year" territory.


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## Felon (Nov 21, 2007)

So, I played part of the Eden Prime mission last night as an infiltrator. I have about thirty minutes worth of gameplay under my belt. I'll hit it hardcore over the holiday weekend, but while I'm frittering away the work day, I'm interested in seeing how my first impressions match up with other folks'.

Traditionally, tutorial missions are sublimely easy, with the opponents doing so little damage that you have to work hard to get killed. The goal is to create the illusion of danger while concealing the primary objective of teaching the player the core elements of gameplay. Not so with ME. I got killed several times, mainly trying to learn how to use the controls at a faster pace than the game's tutorial allows. 

The first opponents are some little bots that are hard to see without the red markers that indicate their position. They are light work, easily dispatched. Next are some geth bots. They can punch through shields, so they ain't using nerf-weapons, but they're basically sitting ducks. 

I get tutorial tips on how I can pause the game at any time to switch weapons and use special abilities. This is supposed to bridge the gap between real-time and turn-based combat, but the player has to hold down a shoulder-button to maintain the pause. With the analog stick being somewhat over-responsive when it comes to selecting items on the dial, I really don't need that extra bit of hassle going on with my index finger. It's basically using physical discomfort as a way of keeping the player from spending too much time making choices.

I head up the hill, and face the sci-fi version of undead: borged-out corpses. They run up and promptly die, with the goal being to get close enough to catch me in their death-throe blast. I experience my first demise in ME, and honestly it's kind of lame. I just finished playing Clive Barker's Jericho, and that was a game that got really bad reviews for throwing these kamakaze foes at you. Suicide bombers are about as un-fun to fight in a video game as they are in the real world. I hope I won't see much of those in the rest of the game.

Time to do some hacking! Unfortunately, the approach to hacking is a real granny shot, as it joins the ever-swelling ranks of games that see some value in incorporating "Simon"-style rapid-fire sequential button-mashing. It's exactly what hacking *shouldn't be*: a twitch game which doesn't seem to incorporate any benefit for the character's point-based abilities or a player's innate puzzle-solving talents (q.v. Bioshock).

Then I get to thr train station, and I start realizing that those red markers are coming and going, not always indicating enemy positions. I guess I'll figure it out for myself eventually, but if anyone can explain why the markers aren't always visible, I'd appreciate it. Without the markers, those geth popping out from cover blend in to the background too easily, since they're basically grey furniture. Some blinking camera-eyes or something would have been a good idea IMO. I basically have to play sitting duck myself and let them shoot to figure out where to aim. 

So I get the train rolling (or sliding) and arrive at the station. Geth are firing across a bridge, and for whatever reason I can't seem to faze them, regardless of using my marksman, overload, dampening, or sabotage abilities. After a couple of deaths there, I decide it's time for bed. 

I'll jump back in tomorrow, maybe respec my character from infiltrator, which seems to not really incorporate many of the benefits from the combat tree. And there really isn't stealth in ME, so the title "infiltrator" is kind of misleading. Also, the Infiltrator skillset seems kind of crappy, but I don't know what a "tech mine" is yet, so it's hard to judge.

On the positive side, the game definitely feels cinematic, and there are a lot of character options right from the go.

So, to sum up my issues so far: 

Tutorial = teaching you to swim by throwing you into pool
Combat = twitch-heavy
Suicide bombers = unfun foe to fight
Hacking = granny shot (not worth having hacking if it's going to implemented this way)
Enemies behind cover = squinting to find them


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## Arnwyn (Nov 21, 2007)

Good, but rated _far_ too highly considering how buggy it is. Unfortunate.

Oh, and a quick "screw you" to M$ for not releasing the LCE in Canada. Up yours.


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## mmu1 (Nov 21, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> The guys over at Penny Arcade have done a few comics on the game over the past week.  While they certainly seem to enjoy the overall scope of the story, it sounds as though Mass Effect is full of horribly frustrating quirks, like a befuddling menu system and never-ending load times.  Obviously everyone's got their own opinions, but I've come to trust these guys because often their opinions align with mine
> 
> I'll still be picking up the title, because I loves me some Bioware, but I think Assassin's Creed will be my next purchase for the 360.




I've played for a couple of hours so far, and I'd call some of the issues mildly furstrating, at most. (keep in mind that they often exaggerate for comedic value, and Gabe apparently has the attention span of a mayfly, so just because something is frustrating to _him_...)

The menu system could do certain things better - I can see how it could get clusmy to manage your inventory once you have a lot more stuff, a couple of places could use a "cancel and exit" button, and I'd like a hotkey for the map, but if you're a serious gamer, chances are you've seen _much_ worse. 

The load times - so far, anyway - haven't been bad at all. Most of the time, KotOR had longer ones - though granted, I didn't spend much time in the larger locations. (never mind a game like The Witcher... now _those_ are damn long load times, and the game still rocked)

The combat definitely takes some getting used to, but I found it ok, and it's slowly growing on me.

The hacking "mini-game" is silly and irrelevant, but hasn't really gotten in the way of my enjoyment of the game at all. We'll see if that's still the case when I have to open some harder locks, I guess.

Overall, I'd say this game is as good as if not better (and no more frustrating) than any other top Bioware title (KotOR, BG2) - it has its flaws, but I think many people are exagerrating them and their impact on gameplay and the enjoyability of the game, because of the hype and insanely high expectations.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Nov 21, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say "Horribly."  But yes, first game in the tech-stream, done on an engine that was still being completed as we worked on the game, so there are definitely some hiccups. And the elevators get old. I'm the guy who wrote the banter and news-vids to try to make the elevators seem less dull.
> 
> The game's averaging 93 on Metacritic right now (30 reviews), which implies that it does more things right (and some of those things right-er than they've ever been done before) than it does wrong.
> 
> If you have a 360 already, it's currently the 6th-highest-rated 360 game on Metacritic (behind a few well-established IPs, Rock Band, and BioShock, and hats off to them). That's still comfortably in "safe buy if you like RPGs and buy 3 or more games per year" territory.




Hey takyris, thanks for the response.  I checked out metacritic yesterday after my post and saw the high review.  Very glad to hear it, and after reading some of the reviews there, I'll definitely be picking this one up.


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## FunkBGR (Nov 21, 2007)

Avoid Assassin's Creed if you can't stand repetitive gameplay
/hijack over

I'm about 4 hours into Mass Effect, and I haven't once noticed any of the problems people have been having, so it's prolly a crapshoot. 

I also haven't had problems with the menu system at all. 

I've definitely not been twitchy at this game during combat. I tend to take cover, get all my guys to take cover, and slowly pick off enemies as I go. Sometimes (timed missions), you have to go a little faster, but a good ol' bull rush takes care of that. 

As for the red icons, they show where enemies are, but some enemies have jammers and an ability to mask their presence. You need an upgrade to see them clearly on the radar.

Hacking game is definitely twitch - I can't hit the buttons fast enough. 

Seriously fun game though - loving every minute of it.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 21, 2007)

Sounds cool.  Games like this (and a burning desire for a decent driving simulator) have me considering a 360, and I haven't owned a console since the NES.

Just curious: is it "mass" as in "large, many" or "mass" as in "matter"?


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## Felon (Nov 21, 2007)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Sounds cool.  Games like this (and a burning desire for a decent driving simulator) have me considering a 360, and I haven't owned a console since the NES.
> 
> Just curious: is it "mass" as in "large, many" or "mass" as in "matter"?



Mass as in...both, really. The Mass Effect is basically a universal force, like gravity or electromagnetism. It is the explanation for why the universe's mass continues to expand when gravity should be causing it to contract (I suppose that's why biotic powers seem to have a lot of gravity-defying effects).


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 21, 2007)

I tried it with a (er, Guardian maybe, I forget) and combat with a pistol was most unfun. Sure I'm "low level" but it's tedious, and the NPC's killed more than me. I disabled AutoSave since it was more trouble than the load times. I switched to default soldier and it's been better.

Combat sucks, IMO. I don't know if any of you have tried Tabula Rasa, but it has the illusion of "twitch", but is figured mathmatically. ME combat was just bad, I think. I'm not comparing twitch factor to Halo or anything, it's just clunky for me.

The (at low-level at least) sniper rifle is silly, no gun moves that much unless you're drinking or something.

The story is good so far, and I'm still holding out hopes for an RPG, but gameplay has let me down a bit.

I also really don't see the "revolutionary" dialogue system. It's a radial menu of options... woohoo?

The Simon Says stuff is so-so, I get it most of the time, but damn, they didn't even explain what it was, and the first time I had lost before I understood what I was supposed to do!

So, at this early (3-4 hours in) juncture, I'm not impressed, but still hopeful.


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## Felon (Nov 22, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I tried it with a (er, Guardian maybe, I forget) and combat with a pistol was most unfun. Sure I'm "low level" but it's tedious, and the NPC's killed more than me. I disabled AutoSave since it was more trouble than the load times. I switched to default soldier and it's been better.



Yeah, I suspect I may do that. Infiltrators are supposed to mix combat and tech abilities, but they really seem deficient in the combat department, being only skilled in pistols and sniper rifles. 

There's really not a lot of skills on the whole, and they're almost entirely for firefights, not any other portion of the game. There are no stealth skills or anything like that (enemies seem to detect the party and open fire immediately). And again, hacking requires a certain skill level to attempt, but the attempt itself doesn't incorporate any skill. Given that, having a class called "infiltrator" seems odd. 

But the text says pistols have good things going for them, like not overheating, low recoil, and maintaining accuracy while moving. And I'm probably selling the debuffs short for lack of understanding on how effective they are.


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## Felon (Nov 22, 2007)

Well, spent many hours playing. The experience has picked up quite a bit. Tooled around the big city doing various assignments that were pretty emjoyable. Netted a Scholar achievement, and then zipped off to conduct a solar-systemwide search for someone. 

In the process I got a distress call from an uncharted planet. Landed there and got another nice achievement, and enjoyed rolling around in my big, bad tank until something popped up out of nowhere that made my ride look like a Tonka truck by comparison. 

Looks like there's some resource-harvesting elements in ME, which I think is pretty nifty. Unfortunately, harvesting the element is another Simon game. There's also salvage, but apparently that takes some major electronics skill (mine's higher than any of the NPC's, and it still wasn't cutting it).

I really like the aliens who joined my party...err, crew. I envy them having access to skills that I don't, though.

I do wonder how the heck I'm ever supposed to afford anything that anyone is selling, with those items costing tens of thousands of credits while I'm only earning them a couple hundred at a time.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 22, 2007)

I'm planet hopping, though a guide telling me how to would have been nice...

I read the planet survey and it seemed like a peaceful enough place, so I deployed with tech girl and a soldiery type, only to find myself in a situation where I'm fighting aliens. Whoops.

I don't mind the load times so far, but I'd have rather had a smaller ship/ smaller cities than having to run for a few minutes to reach a different place on the same level.

I"m still underwhelmed with the dialogue thing, which always had so much hype to it. Too many of the options are vague and seem to give responses that are the opposite of the one I'd have thought it was.
"I don't like aliens on board"
::Choose option "we can use the help::
::response my character says instead:: "Well, they're here, so stop being stubborn and stupid you jackass and pilot my ship before I kill you!"


(Paraphrased from memory...)


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## Felon (Nov 22, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I"m still underwhelmed with the dialogue thing, which always had so much hype to it. Too many of the options are vague and seem to give responses that are the opposite of the one I'd have thought it was.
> "I don't like aliens on board"
> ::Choose option "we can use the help::
> ::response my character says instead:: "Well, they're here, so stop being stubborn and stupid you jackass and pilot my ship before I kill you!"



I think it's self-evident that there was some goal with the dialogue system that never came to fruition. In the preview, they gave you the response options before the NPC was finished speaking. In one example, a crew member is giving you lip, and you cut him off and tell him you're in charge here, not him. The only way to do that in ME is the same way you'd do it any other BIoware RPG: cancel the dialogue.

There's other stuff that was in the preview that isn't in the game. There was a battle with a big geth called an armiger, and the pause interface offered tactical squad control on an individual level. You could tell one guy to go here, and another guy to take up position over there. Now it's really basic: advance, follow, and take cover. 

Unfotunately, I've died a couple times now because the party AI wasn't smart enough to walk around a simple obstacle (like a small crate or a table). I either have to waste time finding a spot they'll go to, or survive the fight without help, then lay down a path for the NPC to baby-step around. It was really amazing to me that I had to do that, because even fairly mediocre, low-budget games have AI's that draw very elaborate paths to reach a destination. I'm not saying it happens very often. Just enough to be noticable.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 22, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Good, but rated _far_ too highly considering how buggy it is. Unfortunate.
> 
> Oh, and a quick "screw you" to M$ for not releasing the LCE in Canada. Up yours.




No kidding.  I'm getting sick and tired of getting stiffed on some of that stuff....particularly when Bioware is *in* Canada.

I tried looking for it.  For some stuff like the Witcher, I've needed to have stuff shipped to the U.S., and then run cross border to pick it up....I was going to do that with LCE, but the cost was ridiculous.  And on EBay, there are asking prices well north of $100 for it.  I like extra content as well as the next guy, but to add $30 to the cost, in order to get it?  No thanks.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Nov 22, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Unfotunately, I've died a couple times now because the party AI wasn't smart enough to walk around a simple obstacle (like a small crate or a table). I either have to waste time finding a spot they'll go to, or survive the fight without help, then lay down a path for the NPC to baby-step around. It was really amazing to me that I had to do that, because even fairly mediocre, low-budget games have AI's that draw very elaborate paths to reach a destination. I'm not saying it happens very often. Just enough to be noticable.




I suppose it's not a difficult question....but I've wondered lately whether several games that have been released lately, and have been commented on as feeling incomplete (Hellgate: London, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed) have come out like that because the development teams were pushed to launch these titles and start generating revenue, by management who needed to make their numbers for this quarter?  It sounds like a few of them could have used a few more months of development.

Banshee


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 22, 2007)

I imagine like anything else, it comes down to Cost/Benefit. If they'd pushed it back 6 months to go over dialogue options more, would that have been enough of a benefit to warrant the push?

The other thing is, sometimes priorities shift, and the dialogue options may have just shifted in style from the original intent.


There's also always a matter of player preferences. I might be in the minority, but I think Halo's Warthog is the epitome of a fun vehicle to enter combat with. Everyone should copy it, unless the objective is a vehicle simulator. ME's car is so-so, it takes some getting used to but should be okay.

Couple that with just coming off of Tabula Rasa, where run&gun works great, vs Mass Effect where combat feels tedious and awkward for me... I'm not expecting FPS mechanics, but there's a big difference IMO.

I still don't know why you can't jump, it feels like an action game, but falls short.

If I had to review it at my current point, I'd probably give it 7/8 of 10. It's a game that's good, but has a lot of fundamental flaws in gameplay. The fact I've been taking breaks from it to play Carcassonne (which I got for free on Live) is a bit telling.


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## Felon (Nov 25, 2007)

So, I've been playing pretty hardcore over the holiday weekend. I can actually say now that it's a pretty great game, with a lot to do. I don't know that it will have replay value for me because I do every mission that comes my way. The missions on the whole are ptetty fun, and the main missions are brilliant. Very cinematic, with characters I like as much as any character from a Final Fantasy game. I would happily watch the story play out as a movie, if they captured the feel.

There are lots of hair-pulling elements in the game. Here's my top three:

1) The AI pathing problems have become more pronounced, with them having a major problem with ramps. Try to send the squad up a ramp, and they'll actually walk around it and go underneath it. And they get stuck a lot and need to be guided out. Also, te AI does not compensate well for obstructions in line of fire. You crew will happily blaze away only to have all their rounds go into some obstacle right in front of them. OTOH, the AI also never misses at any range, which also problematic for would-be snipers. Imagine you're trying to snipe some guy from five hundred away. You'll be having to compensate for your sight wobbling (making rifle scopes sway around so that it's hard to get a clean shot is apparently all the rage in shooters these days), and meanwhile, the AI can pull out his sidearm and start popping you. 

2) Interior design is often svery drab, very mundane, and fails to give the impression that of a sci-fi setting. Go to a "gentleman's club", and the only thing to distinguish it as such is a flat cutout of a woman's silhouette on the wall. I want the Coruscant treatment. GIve me some flashing, colorful, holography. And when I have my first big confrontation with the BBEG, learning the enemy's true nature and the galaxy's darkest secret, why am I standing on a room of bare concrete walls and metal grate floors? A set designer would get fired for handling one of the high points of a film that way. 

3) The ground vehicle is very frustrating to operate, and you can burn an hour of your gaming time getting very little accomplished because of this PoS rolling over end over end, and getting 90% of the way up a slope only to stall out just shy of the peak and come tumblign down. 

Still, been having a blast with the parts that are polished. I'm interest in seeing what they'll come out with in the way of downloadable content.


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## mmu1 (Nov 25, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> 3) The ground vehicle is very frustrating to operate, and you can burn an hour of your gaming time getting very little accomplished because of this PoS rolling over end over end, and getting 90% of the way up a slope only to stall out just shy of the peak and come tumblign down.




Weird. I've seen this complaint repeatedly, and I actually didn't manage to roll the Mako once - despite being intentionally careless a number of times. (Hey, let me fire the thrusters as I come off the edge of this 50' drop, to see what happens. Whee!)

Mind you, I never actually sat down for a few minutes to _try_ to roll it - I'm sure it's doable, I came close a couple of times...


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm enjoying the RPG aspects of it, but so far the explorer and combat aspects are lacking.

One of my main irks is changing party members only at the ship (when you can't hop back to the ship automatically) and having to run across lots of ground to reach anything.


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## Felon (Nov 26, 2007)

Yeah, you can't even look at all of your party members' skills at once to make comparative decisions. You can switch their equipment around at the lockers in the ship bay, so why didn't they give a class development window as well?

Another thing that's come to light: this is a short game! In terms of scope, we are not looking at another _Elder Scrolls: Oblivion_. I mean, two weeks should be ample time for most folks playing casually. And that's doing side quests, not just knocking out the main storyline. There's supposed to be downloadable content coming down the pipeline, but by the time it gets here ME will be past tense for the majority of folks.


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## Enforcer (Nov 27, 2007)

I really like it so far. I love the all-audio dialog, for both NPCs and Shepard. I like the combat too, it's a nice way to add some shoot-em-up satisfaction to an RPG. I also really like the setting and story so far. I can already tell that this game will join the ranks of the Baldur's Gate and Fallout series as a game I will replay, a lot.

I do have some nitpicks though:

-I wish they showed you the complete lists of talents for all the character classes during character creation, so that I don't have to go through the process a bunch of times to compare.

-I wish you could unequip weapons that you or your squad are not proficient in. It's silly for Wirex to carry a sniper rifle that he can't use, for example, and it looks silly visually.

-I wish the manual actually told me what the hell the stuff in the status bars meant. Took me a while to figure out the white bars are your shields. And why does my Quarian Machinist squadmember have way more shields than my heavy-armor wearing Shepard? Likewise, I found out by accident that the Mako has a cannon in addition to its machine gun.

-I can't figure out what, if anything, First Aid does if you assign points to it. Neither for Shepard or my squad.

-Shouldn't more points in Sniper Rifle make the cross hairs shake a little less eventually? I only have five or so points in it, but still, it's annoying. I'm fine with the shake, but it should taper off the more I devote to it.

-I wish the Primary Codex stuff had an option to turn off the voiceover. I read much faster, and it's not nearly as entertaining to listen to as in-game dialog (which comes with facial expressions and other visual goodies).


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## takyris (Nov 28, 2007)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> -I wish they showed you the complete lists of talents for all the character classes during character creation, so that I don't have to go through the process a bunch of times to compare.
> 
> -I wish you could unequip weapons that you or your squad are not proficient in. It's silly for Wirex to carry a sniper rifle that he can't use, for example, and it looks silly visually.




Ditto and ditto. Note that you can use weapons you're not proficient in, though. You just can't zoom in with them. A high-level shotgun with no training at point-blank range can still clear out a room.



> -I wish the manual actually told me what the hell the stuff in the status bars meant. Took me a while to figure out the white bars are your shields. And why does my Quarian Machinist squadmember have way more shields than my heavy-armor wearing Shepard? Likewise, I found out by accident that the Mako has a cannon in addition to its machine gun.




The button that said "Cannon" on the vehicle-controls page didn't help? That page also notes that you can zoom with the left trigger, and zoom MORE by tapping the right thumbstick while zoomed, which few people appear to have noticed. While ragging on the manual is always good fun, most of the stuff I've seen people complain about is actually in there.

Your Machinist has a bunch of shields because one of her skills (at work, but you can find this on BioWare's boards somewhere) increases her shields in addition to serving as a tech power. Electronics, Decryption? Something like that. It's a great skill. My Sentinel is using it to stay alive in fights.



> -I can't figure out what, if anything, First Aid does if you assign points to it. Neither for Shepard or my squad.




As I recall, more points heals you more, and if multiple people in the party have First Aid, the effects stack. I don't know how they stack (total the health healed or total the points to generate the new equivalent score or what), but I know that they stack somehow.



> -Shouldn't more points in Sniper Rifle make the cross hairs shake a little less eventually? I only have five or so points in it, but still, it's annoying. I'm fine with the shake, but it should taper off the more I devote to it.




It does. At very high levels with the right upgrades, it's almost dead-still, and even at low levels, it's almost dead-still when you fire up Assassination.



> -I wish the Primary Codex stuff had an option to turn off the voiceover. I read much faster, and it's not nearly as entertaining to listen to as in-game dialog (which comes with facial expressions and other visual goodies).




Ditto.


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## ohGr (Nov 28, 2007)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> -Shouldn't more points in Sniper Rifle make the cross hairs shake a little less eventually? I only have five or so points in it, but still, it's annoying. I'm fine with the shake, but it should taper off the more I devote to it.



takyris answered all your questions well, but i'd like to add here that kneeling (clicking the left stick) dramatically reduces the cross-hair shaking effect.  It's Accuracy that affects this, by the way, so anyway you can increase your Accuracy will have an effect, whether it's a more accurate sniper rifle or a weapon mod that increases accuracy.


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## Felon (Nov 28, 2007)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> -I wish you could unequip weapons that you or your squad are not proficient in. It's silly for Wirex to carry a sniper rifle that he can't use, for example, and it looks silly visually.



Yeah, I have a character in the crew who's wearing some light armor that's actually vastly superior to Shepard's medium (which is weird, but whatever), but I can't get it off her unless I actually buy her another suit of armor to wear. 



> -I wish the manual actually told me what the hell the stuff in the status bars meant. Took me a while to figure out the white bars are your shields. And why does my Quarian Machinist squadmember have way more shields than my heavy-armor wearing Shepard?



Well, the electronics skill states pretty clearily that it boosts your shields, plus Tali has a racial skill that boosts it even more. I did not get that the white bars were shields, and I'm not sure what their function is. Are they just extra hit points that regenerate quickly? I guess so. Oddly enough, that makes techies good tanks in some respects.



> -I can't figure out what, if anything, First Aid does if you assign points to it. Neither for Shepard or my squad.



On your status bar next to your crew's health/shields there's an icon with a Y on it and a number. The number is how many medkits you have. Hit Y and you'll use one to heal your entire crew. This took me a while to figure out. Btw, the icon right right under that pertains to your grenades.

Oh, and if you find yourself dying while on a planet for no apparent reason, it's because it's got a hazardous environment. That meter filling up on the bottom right represents how long you can stand outside.



> -Shouldn't more points in Sniper Rifle make the cross hairs shake a little less eventually? I only have five or so points in it, but still, it's annoying. I'm fine with the shake, but it should taper off the more I devote to it.



It does, but you have to make a significant investment before it's really noticable. The sway is simply too pronounced. It's not like there are many opportunities to snipe as it is, since most firefights are in tight quarters, so I don't understand why it's so heavily penalized.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 28, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, the electronics skill states pretty clearily that it boosts your shields, plus Tali has a racial skill that boosts it even more. I did not get that the white bars were shields, and I'm not sure what their function is. Are they just extra hit points that regenerate quickly? I guess so. Oddly enough, that makes techies good tanks in some respects.




I've used Tali almost since I got her, she's more fun than the human chick or the Asari, and once you get her decent skills, her shields give her staying power, but she is still usually the first to die. (Unless of course, I get sniped.) Shields seem like temp hp basically, but can be bypassed by some attacks like the Rachni's poison, I think.

I also use Wrex, so with me being a Vanguard, I've got equal tech/bio/soldiering among my group. Wrex is another oddity, where being a Vanguard makes him weaker in some aspects, but then his Krogan skill makes him tougher.


For "lack of explanation" stuff, sometimes I wish they'd give you more ability to think on a decision. I had no clue what the advanced class stuff meant before having to pick one. It's not a major change or anything, barely noticeable even, but woulda been nice to have something in the manual saying "and consider your future when you can choose from..." and a brief outline.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 28, 2007)

And while we're adding things to the Sequel...

When the loot screen comes up, it'd be handy to be able to review/compare item stats so I know whether I should bother keeping it. My equipment lists get cluttered up pretty quickly.

In addition, some lists when you choose to destroy an item, it jumps to the top of the list. Some (like the loot list) seem almost random in it's jumping, and some stay where you were. I'd prefer to keep it where I was, so it's easier to delete a bunch of old gear (which is at the bottom usually.)


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## mrtauntaun (Nov 28, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> I'm the guy who wrote the banter and news-vids to try to make the elevators seem less dull.




Bless you!  I thought those voice overs were a great little touch.  Though after reading the PA nitpicks, I can say they are not nearly as annoying to me.  Maybe because I was assuming the worst after I read them.

I just love the depth of this game.  The backstory, the universe.  Everything is just so well thought out.  It's captivating.


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## Enforcer (Nov 28, 2007)

Yeah, the elevator stuff is great. I just don't like the codex voiceovers--maybe if they did the voiceover with a visual presentation, that'd be cool, but I hate hearing someone else reading text that I'm trying to read.

Thanks for the tips, takyris.


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## Felon (Nov 28, 2007)

I've been taking different teams with me on the citadel solely so I can hear all the different elevator-banter sequences. Good stuff.

Wrex is a great character. They didn't take the teasy path with his personality; usually a character like him winds up being a thuggish boor who's there to want to do the wrong, stupid, short-sigthed thing. But while Wrex may be a thug, he does have some depth. He wants to make sure that if he's going to make sacrifices that it's actually worth it.


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## Felon (Nov 28, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I've used Tali almost since I got her, she's more fun than the human chick or the Asari, and once you get her decent skills, her shields give her staying power, but she is still usually the first to die. (Unless of course, I get sniped.) Shields seem like temp hp basically, but can be bypassed by some attacks like the Rachni's poison, I think..



Rachni spit does seem to bypass shields...as does thresher maw spit!

Tali, Garrus, and Wrex are all quantifiably better characters than any of the builds for Shepard. 

Garrus is basically an infiltrator who gets access to assault rifle training instead of sniper rifles. I shouldn't have to explain why that's a better deal, but if that's not good enough, he also receives the assault training skill too. Everything else an infiltrator can do, he can do.

Tali's making out well too. She's an engineer that gets access to both pistols and shotguns. As far as I can tell, she sacrifices nothing. She starts out with few skill points invested in those weapons, so that should be remedied ASAP. 

Wrex is whatever the combat/biotics class is called (Sentinel?), but again they gave the NPC class assault rifle access while the PC can only get that as a soldier. Oh, and he gets health bonuses and regenerates hit points like a soldier. OH, and I almost forgot to mention heavy armor. He's pretty much a soldier with biotics on the side.

I suppose it's wrong to have class envy over your NPC crewmates, but they really do come out ahead of the PC claasses. Then again, that's probably just the burn I feel for the infiltrator class.

Having said all that though, I'm not sure I have seen the value of biotics. Throwing folks around and lifting them up in the air is a nice parlor trick, but it's not worth giving a character weaker armor and weaponry training.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 28, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> I've been taking different teams with me on the citadel solely so I can hear all the different elevator-banter sequences. Good stuff.
> 
> Wrex is a great character. They didn't take the teasy path with his personality; usually a character like him winds up being a thuggish boor who's there to want to do the wrong, stupid, short-sigthed thing. But while Wrex may be a thug, he does have some depth. He wants to make sure that if he's going to make sacrifices that it's actually worth it.




The more you talk to him on the Normandy as things go on, the better he gets, too.

Well, this applies to ALL the characters, but Wrex seemed to go even more from the stupid thug stereotype you initially think he is to something completely different.

[sblock]The whole thing about the disagreement with his father on what their people should do to survive what the Turians did to them really got me.[/sblock]


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 28, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Rachni spit does seem to bypass shields...as does thresher maw spit!
> 
> Tali, Garrus, and Wrex are all quantifiably better characters than any of the builds for Shepard.



But, but... you get Unity!

UNITY!



> Garrus is basically an infiltrator who gets access to assault rifle training instead of sniper rifles.



Actually, I've enjoyed the pistol much better than the assault rifle. (I'm a vanguard, the sol/bio split.)



> Tali's making out well too. She's an engineer that gets access to both pistols and shotguns. As far as I can tell, she sacrifices nothing. She starts out with few skill points invested in those weapons, so that should be remedied ASAP.




Well, in defense, you DO get a lot more points than the others.



> Wrex is whatever the combat/biotics class is called (Sentinel?), but again they gave the NPC class assault rifle access while the PC can only get that as a soldier. Oh, and he gets health bonuses and regenerates hit points like a soldier. OH, and I almost forgot to mention heavy armor. He's pretty much a soldier with biotics on the side.



I'm just not sure why Wrex isn't just a soldier. Leave the Vanguard to Ashley or something.




> Having said all that though, I'm not sure I have seen the value of biotics. Throwing folks around and lifting them up in the air is a nice parlor trick, but it's not worth giving a character weaker armor and weaponry training.




I use throw and warp a little, but yeah, overall nothing important. I've not gotten much out of shotguns yet either. Next I will try an infiltrator I think and leave the biotics to Liara (who, also get a Heal bonus for race...)


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## Simplicity (Nov 28, 2007)

I used to be very blah about all of the biotic effects.  Then, after getting my butt handed to me more than a few times I tried investing in them a bit more.  

I'm not sure I could get through the game without Singularity.  Take the group of people over there out from behind cover, pick them up and hold them there so you can shoot them for a while?  Yes, please.

Throw is kind of lame, but then I don't have a lot invested in it.  Stasis is useful for giving myself some breathing room, and Barrier is just plain necessary for an Adept.


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## Simplicity (Nov 28, 2007)

The game is awesome by the way. 

And the dialog system (specifically, the procedural generation of facial expressions for a wide variety of faces) is one of the biggest advances in the gaming industry since jumping.  It's very impressive technology.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 29, 2007)

Okay, just finished it. (Restarted after 6 hours with my current vanguard, and had some disc issues last night.)

Length is good I think, though of course I did a good amount of side missions, so there's that.


Probably one of the best end-games I've had in a long time, the final location leading up to the boss battle was quite a fun scene. The finale was a lot of fun, though combat was a bit hectic with It.

So, final review (until I replay again next week  :
1) Dialogue system is very nice and cinematic, except that quite a few times, IMO, the dialogue choice did not match the tone/response implied.

2) Combat was iffy, okay once you get used to it, but still a bit slow for a real shooter, since its not one, we'll make an exception, but still. The sniper wobble is horrible, and the heat system makes my pistol almost as good as an assault rifle, which is fine I suppose. Grenades didn't really capture my interest, though they were nicely done in concept.

3) Mako was not fun, not like a Warthog...  That said, my early problems only seemed to work for the linear quests, rather than the "open world" missions. Though, it's still not the greatest in combat, and I'd often just snipe&hop, which isn't a very dynamic combat experience.

4) Characters were fun, I especially liked Tali and Wrex, though Garrus might be better given time. They didn't seem to have as much dialogue as KotOR, and it's always odd to have to pick 2 people from a sixe man team.

5) Achievements: mostly very boring actually. "kill 150 things with pistol" or whatnot. I'm not sure why I didn't get the Krogan and Quarian unlocks, I used them for 95% of the missions once I got them, but I guess it means "majority of the game" with completing all the side quests. Bleh. It is neat that some of them unlock other stuff though.

6) Equipment: the gel system is fine, but the menu's need some polishing for navigation and stuff.

7) Story: starts off good, continues along good, great ending. The only issue I had was how some of the stuff just seemed "done" before. Once you think of the Quarians as Battlestar Gallactica it's hard to forget. The comparisons of the Protheans with Forerunners (Halo) and Eloh (Tabula Rasa) are pretty fresh in my mind too.

Overall, definetly worth the purchase, though;
8) the disc. It said it was unreadable after a certain point, when I tried to clean the disc, I saw scuffs on it. After a little poking around, I found others had the same problems with ME discs, and a heavy cleaning removes whatever that scuff material is. Scratched my disc in the process of course, but it works fine. I haven't had this issue with any other discs.


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## Felon (Nov 29, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> But, but... you get Unity!
> 
> UNITY!



Sure, you ge the spectre special training, but just comparing to what the classes themselves offer, the alien NPC's get a better deal.



> Actually, I've enjoyed the pistol much better than the assault rifle. (I'm a vanguard, the sol/bio split.)



Really? What makes the lower damage and fewer shots worthwhile?



> Well, in defense, you DO get a lot more points than the others.



Not sure what you mean there. My armor, health, and shields are the equivalent of any other crew member with similar investments in armor, Fitness, and Electronics.



> I'm just not sure why Wrex isn't just a soldier. Leave the Vanguard to Ashley or something.



What I don't get is the big bonus he gets on melee attacks. Other than stomring, there is no melee.


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## Felon (Nov 29, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> 3) Mako was not fun, not like a Warthog...  That said, my early problems only seemed to work for the linear quests, rather than the "open world" missions. Though, it's still not the greatest in combat, and I'd often just snipe&hop, which isn't a very dynamic combat experience.



Never played Halo, but the Mako's default camera view should have been to stay forward-oriented until a player actually used the right thumbstick to swivel it around.



> 5) Achievements: mostly very boring actually. "kill 150 things with pistol" or whatnot. I'm not sure why I didn't get the Krogan and Quarian unlocks, I used them for 95% of the missions once I got them, but I guess it means "majority of the game" with completing all the side quests. Bleh. It is neat that some of them unlock other stuff though.



According to the Xbox forums, the various "ally" achievements are incredibly demanding. You won't get the one for Liara unless you acquire her as soon as her mission becomes available, and then use her forevermore afterwards. Personally, that seems like a bad idea for an achievement, essentially penalizing a player who makes tactical decisions about which crew members to bring on a given mission.


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## Howndawg (Nov 29, 2007)

Just recently polished it up myself.  Loved it.

My biggest critiques:

-Shield recharge on the Mako is pathetically slow.  Too many battles consist of running in, killing as much geth as I can, then retreating and waiting ten minutes for my shields to recharge.  Repeat until geth are destroyed.

-An overreliance on stock "dungeons".  Too many missions have the same maps.

-Saren was too much of a pushover in the end. 


Aside from those and perhaps a few other minor beefs, I thought the game was excellent.  For those who think Shepard is a bit too weak, after the lunar mission and unlocking of class specialization, he really begins to shine.  My soldier took shock trooper as his spec and by the end of the game was a nigh unstoppable juggernaut.


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## Enforcer (Nov 29, 2007)

I haven't finished yet, but once I bought the Master SPECTRE weapons for my Shepard (Soldier) he became an unstoppable badass. With the Master SPECTRE assault rifle and maximum talent points in that skill, my target reticle doesn't expand at all, even if I lay on the trigger. And with over 60 shots required before overheating, the thing is more like a minigun than an assault rifle.

Some more nitpicks though: What the hell do some of the upgrades do? What's Hardness? I know +9% Hardness must be good for my armor, but what does it DO? Why do Polonium rounds seem to work on the Geth?

I love this game, as evidenced by my only getting 4-5 hours of sleep the past few nights, but I wish some of the game terms were better explained. How is Accuracy actually calculated? Weapon Accuracy + points from talents? And does 100% or more mean I never miss, supposedly? More Accuracy=Good I get, I just would like to understand how the system works.

Anyways, how cool are some of the achievements? They actually improve Shepard in later play. For example, with Assault Rifle Expert supposedly even an Adept Shepard will be able to put points into Assault Rifle when I play it again. Or at least that's how I read it. That makes the idea of playing through on Hardcore or Insanity pretty palatable. And Rich opens up the SPECTRE gear, which dramatically changes gameplay.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 29, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Sure, you ge the spectre special training, but just comparing to what the classes themselves offer, the alien NPC's get a better deal.



Sorry, was humor. 




> Really? What makes the lower damage and fewer shots worthwhile?



With Marksman, I could fire as fast as I could pull the trigger and never overheat. Even without, I rarely had any overheating with the pistol, whereas the rifle was spiking in heat pretty quickly. Damage on the pistol was usually around 75% of the rifle, but I tended to get more shots with it.




> Not sure what you mean there. My armor, health, and shields are the equivalent of any other crew member with similar investments in armor, Fitness, and Electronics.




You have 3 skill points to their 2, then 2 to their 1, then 1 to their 1.
You get more points to use for skills to keep ahead of them. (though of course you might have more skills to use)


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 29, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Never played Halo, but the Mako's default camera view should have been to stay forward-oriented until a player actually used the right thumbstick to swivel it around.



Well, if you don't like FPS, then it's a waste obviously, but Halo 1 or 2 is dirt cheap. The Warthog is the jeep, and it's probably the most fun I've had in a video game vehicle. It's not exactly "realistic" perhaps, but quite fun and easy to control.




> According to the Xbox forums, the various "ally" achievements are incredibly demanding. You won't get the one for Liara unless you acquire her as soon as her mission becomes available, and then use her forevermore afterwards. Personally, that seems like a bad idea for an achievement, essentially penalizing a player who makes tactical decisions about which crew members to bring on a given mission.




I had Tali & Wrex with me for just about every mission I think. I may have walked around without them once. I got them real quick too, since I'd planned on a Tali/Wrex mix from the start.

But, I think it's not "completed the core storyline", and there's no way I even completed half of the total missions.

Do they say if there's a benefit?


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## takyris (Nov 29, 2007)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> Some more nitpicks though: What the hell do some of the upgrades do? What's Hardness? I know +9% Hardness must be good for my armor, but what does it DO? Why do Polonium rounds seem to work on the Geth?




No idea why polonium is the way it is. I guess that their systems are vulnerable to radiation.

Regarding Hardness, that's essentially "resistance to tech and biotic attacks". It's one of those things I usually ignore until I meet 10 crazed biotics or a dozen geth stalkers, at which point I pay really close attention to how much "resist tech attack" stuff I have on hand.

I'm only answering the stuff I know.  Sorry it's confusing.


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## Felon (Nov 30, 2007)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> Anyways, how cool are some of the achievements? They actually improve Shepard in later play. For example, with Assault Rifle Expert supposedly even an Adept Shepard will be able to put points into Assault Rifle when I play it again. Or at least that's how I read it. That makes the idea of playing through on Hardcore or Insanity pretty palatable. And Rich opens up the SPECTRE gear, which dramatically changes gameplay.



Well, you can see the achievements for yourself from the startup screen, under Extras. The bulk of them are for completing missions, for using skills and making kills, and for doing missions with the same ally for gobs and gobs of missions.


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## takyris (Nov 30, 2007)

Also, regarding the ally achievements. Yep, they're tough to get. Also, they give you some kickass benefits permanently. They're not designed to be benefits that everyone casually gets. If you get a permanent +10% to your health on all future characters (as I understand it), you're going to have earned it.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 30, 2007)

Heh, I also just noticed you can restart the campaign with your character you finished with. Hit Eden Prime as a 45th level character.


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## Felon (Nov 30, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> Also, regarding the ally achievements. Yep, they're tough to get. Also, they give you some kickass benefits permanently. They're not designed to be benefits that everyone casually gets. If you get a permanent +10% to your health on all future characters (as I understand it), you're going to have earned it.



But "earning" it just means playing with the same crew members repeatedly, to the exclusion of others, right? It's not some test of mettle or anything.



> Anyways, how cool are some of the achievements? They actually improve Shepard in later play. For example, with Assault Rifle Expert supposedly even an Adept Shepard will be able to put points into Assault Rifle when I play it again. Or at least that's how I read it. That makes the idea of playing through on Hardcore or Insanity pretty palatable. And Rich opens up the SPECTRE gear, which dramatically changes gameplay.



OK, I've missed out on the parts where achievements actually do something, but does this stuff only take once you start over? Because I didn't see any equipment unlock when I got rich. I've seen Colossus armor, which is pretty awesome--but not in mdeium human variety, so every other member my crew except Shepard is wearing it.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 30, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> OK, I've missed out on the parts where achievements actually do something, but does this stuff only take once you start over? Because I didn't see any equipment unlock when I got rich. I've seen Colossus armor, which is pretty awesome--but not in mdeium human variety, so every other member my crew except Shepard is wearing it.




I never even noticed my requisitions guy had Spectre Gear until this thread pointed it out.


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## Felon (Nov 30, 2007)

Well, I noticed the gear, but didn't realize it was "Master Spectre" gear until I took a close look.

Still need some good medium human armor though.


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## takyris (Nov 30, 2007)

You're proving that you can use the follower in all situations.

That said, you don't have to do it. It's like the uncharted worlds. There's a reward for doing it, but no penalty for not doing it. I will try to get the Completionist achievement, though, because I like doing as much of the game as I can, and I don't mind the Mako the way many do.

I'm not doing it, because I like playing with different followers. Right now I've got team tech -- I'm a Sentinel (tech/biotics), and I've got a full tech character and a tech/combat character along with me.


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## Enforcer (Nov 30, 2007)

According to some of the sites I've been to, to get the Ally achievements you also need to complete the Completionist achievement. I think Gamespot says so on their guide.


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## Felon (Nov 30, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> You're proving that you can use the follower in all situations.
> 
> That said, you don't have to do it.




But...but...I need to maximize my Gamescore! 

I'm a big fan of secret achievements, and in ME I try not to look at all of the achievements so some will be a surprise. Still, I was curious enough about the ally achievements to look into them.

I've done the uncharted worlds. Haven't gotten any achievements for exploration yet, but I suppose I need to wrap up all of the scavenger hunts.


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## trancejeremy (Dec 2, 2007)

FWIW, Gogamer has this on sale for the next 48 hours (well, more like 36) for $47.99+$2.59 shipping.


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## Finster (Dec 3, 2007)

Vocenoctum wrote:
"For "lack of explanation" stuff, sometimes I wish they'd give you more ability to think on a decision. I had no clue what the advanced class stuff meant before having to pick one. It's not a major change or anything, barely noticeable even, but woulda been nice to have something in the manual saying "and consider your future when you can choose from..." and a brief outline."

I too am curious about these Advanced Classes. Does anyone know what kind of effect they have on the game, if any? Is there any kind of bonus for getting to them?


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 3, 2007)

Finster said:
			
		

> Vocenoctum wrote:
> "For "lack of explanation" stuff, sometimes I wish they'd give you more ability to think on a decision. I had no clue what the advanced class stuff meant before having to pick one. It's not a major change or anything, barely noticeable even, but woulda been nice to have something in the manual saying "and consider your future when you can choose from..." and a brief outline."
> 
> I too am curious about these Advanced Classes. Does anyone know what kind of effect they have on the game, if any? Is there any kind of bonus for getting to them?




They change your current "Class Skill" to another, with different benefits, not sure what all the different ones do.


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## ohGr (Dec 4, 2007)

Notice how class talents only have 6 levels while every other one has 12?  A specialization class adds on those 6 other levels, but gives you different bonuses (you keep the original class bonuses).

Each class can select from two different specialization classes (spoilering it, just in case):

[sblock]*Soldier*
*Commando:*  Weapon damage bonus (%, by level), reduced cool-down for Immunity, Marksman and Assassination.
*Shock Trooper:*  Health and damage protection bonus (%, be level), reduced cool-down for Immunity and Adrenaline Burst.

*Engineer*
*Medic:*  First Aid and Neural Shock cool-down reduction (%, by level), improves Neural Shock's duration and damage, First Aid heals more and revives downed party members.
*Operative:*  Tech Mine cool-down reduction (%, by level), improves radius and damage of Overload and Sabotage.

*Adept*
*Bastion:*  Biotic cool-down reduction (%, by level), improves durability and duration of Barrier and allows you to damage targets in Stasis.
*Nemesis:*  Biotic damage/duration bonus (%, by level), improves radius and damage of Warp and _greatly_ improves radius of Lift.

*Infiltrator*
Commando and Operative.

*Sentinal*
Bastion and Medic.

*Vanguard*
Shock Trooper and Nemesis.  (Shock Trooper reduces cool-down on Barrier in lieu of Immunity, which Vanguards don't have.)[/sblock]


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## Simplicity (Dec 10, 2007)

Okay, finished the game, and my final view is a little less favorable than my starting impression.  The side missions were all way too similar, so at some point I just stopped doing them.  Without the side missions, I think I finished the game in about 20 hours of play.
Which seems way too short for an RPG.  Each of the main missions was quite awesome.  Really incredible, in fact...  But the major choices I had to make... well they didn't really amount to anything in the end (that I could tell...).  So, how were they really choices at all?
Maybe I missed something.  May play it again as a paragon and see how it alters things.

Nitpicks:
- X skips dialog.  X should not also pick responses.  It's way too easy to try to skip a speech and accidently pick something.


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## trancejeremy (Dec 11, 2007)

I finally got this today.  So far it's pretty neat, and some of the graphics are amazing (especially Citadel and the Krogan).

But at the same time, it seems exactly like KOTOR, albeit with the d20 and the SW license stripped out and new stuff put in. Even some of the aliens seem suspiciously similar to SW, and Biotics = The Force.  This is not a bad thing mind you, since I liked the KOTOR games, but I was hoping for something a little more different than just the graphics (well, the combat is also quite different in practice).

And one thing - why is it every woman in the future has the same hairdo? (Except the one on your squad).


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 11, 2007)

Soldier Ally gives "Damage Reduction improves by 10%", not a big deal, but okay. Got it right at Completionist (which increases XP awards by 5%), and still waiting for Liara to register (since I got her later on).


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 11, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Even some of the aliens seem suspiciously similar to SW,




I thought the aliens felt more like Star Treks "humans with masks" at first, but some have a SW vibe, sure. The Elcor aren't much to look at, but are fun.



> and Biotics = The Force.



A buddy that read the novel said biotics were very much like the force. In the game, I can see the similarities, but there's enough of a difference in story I think.



> This is not a bad thing mind you, since I liked the KOTOR games, but I was hoping for something a little more different than just the graphics (well, the combat is also quite different in practice).




There's basically around 3 building archetypes for "random worlds" (anything not a core quest) and it gets a bit tedious.



> And one thing - why is it every woman in the future has the same hairdo? (Except the one on your squad).




Perhaps there was a law passed and they just don't mention it.


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## ohGr (Dec 12, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Soldier Ally gives "Damage Reduction improves by 10%", not a big deal, but okay. Got it right at Completionist (which increases XP awards by 5%), and still waiting for Liara to register (since I got her later on).



Your probably going to be waiting a long time.  The way the ally achievements are triggered, it's pretty much impossible to get Liara's if you play the game like a normal person.  (i.e.: doing everything available on the Citadel before moving on.)  Basically, you have to rush through the Citadel portion of the game ignoring all the side-quests, make rescuing her your first priority when given the chance, and _then_ return to the Citadel to do all the side-quests.  It... sucks.


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 12, 2007)

ohGr said:
			
		

> Your probably going to be waiting a long time.  The way the ally achievements are triggered, it's pretty much impossible to get Liara's if you play the game like a normal person.  (i.e.: doing everything available on the Citadel before moving on.)  Basically, you have to rush through the Citadel portion of the game ignoring all the side-quests, make rescuing her your first priority when given the chance, and _then_ return to the Citadel to do all the side-quests.  It... sucks.




This is my second playthrough, so I did avoid the sidequests in the citadel, AFAIK. I did the party gain ones, since you have to, flew right there, grabbed her, then returned. Still, I'd hope by the time I finish Ilios it'd activate it...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 12, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> This is my second playthrough, so I did avoid the sidequests in the citadel, AFAIK. I did the party gain ones, since you have to, flew right there, grabbed her, then returned. Still, I'd hope by the time I finish Ilios it'd activate it...



 Its roughly 15 main quests and 45 sidequests to get it, so you can kind of tally that up yourself to get an idea. But the numbers are rough and with her so late to join, even going right for it, that's the 'fun' one.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 12, 2007)

So XBox achievements actually affect gameplay?  Interesting.  I've not heard of any other 360 games doing this.  Is it common, or is Mass Effect on of the first to incorporate achievements in this way?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 12, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> So XBox achievements actually affect gameplay?  Interesting.  I've not heard of any other 360 games doing this.  Is it common, or is Mass Effect on of the first to incorporate achievements in this way?



 As far as I know, this is the only game that does it.

Hopefully it'll become common, though.


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 12, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Its roughly 15 main quests and 45 sidequests to get it, so you can kind of tally that up yourself to get an idea. But the numbers are rough and with her so late to join, even going right for it, that's the 'fun' one.




The main drawback for me, is that once you hit the endgame, there's really no way to go back and finish quests. You can of course replay from the start, but that's a little different.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 12, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> The main drawback for me, is that once you hit the endgame, there's really no way to go back and finish quests. You can of course replay from the start, but that's a little different.



 As long as you don't go to Illos you should be fine...well, except for possibly missing some Citadel stuff.


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## Felon (Dec 13, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> There's basically around 3 building archetypes for "random worlds" (anything not a core quest) and it gets a bit tedious.



Let's see....There's the big warehouse-style room, which is really boring tactically because you'll be taking heavy fire from virtually everyone at once, so your best tactical option is just to hole up at the entrance and let them enter your killzone. Then there's the one with the big killing room that leads into a hallway that has a small room on the left and right--again, all the bad guys tend to be packed in the one big room. 

Um...what else is there? The cave/mine and the ships...

It really is hard to tell some times how ME spend four years in development. Other times, of course, it's great.


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 13, 2007)

Yeah, Cave/mine, ship, Cerberus style "entry room, then big slaughter room, then t'section with two rooms" and "big room with side hall leading to second floor".

Sometimes with various rooms blocked off.

I'm hoping that DLC will give a core quest style buildup for a good low price, but who knows. It'll probably just be a new armor/ weapon set.


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## trancejeremy (Dec 13, 2007)

The more I play, the more I do see it's a dramatic improvement over KOTOR.  Some of the missions are simply much longer and more detailed, especially with how the Mako gets integrated into some of them.  Makes the planets feel much much bigger than in KOTOR.

That said, one of the things I wish they had gotten away from was the 2 extra character (NPC) limit from KOTOR.  I realize they want people to play more than once, but some missions it seems almost silly leaving half the squad behind.


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## Alan Shutko (Dec 14, 2007)

I'm playing through the second time with an engineer.  I'm enjoying the pistol.  The accuracy kicks butt, and with marksman and the right ammo upgrades, cuts through enemies quickly.  Loving the side quests too....


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 14, 2007)

I was actually surprised not to have a combat on the Normandy.

I'd rather have a smaller group and perhaps some exclusionary NPC's (say you only have 4NPC, all accompany you, but it's from a pool of 8 potential NPC's. GW's has some NPC's like this.)


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## trancejeremy (Dec 15, 2007)

The only thing that really bugs me, is how the romance seems rather rushed. I guess because the main quest isn't very long. But it seems like I barely knew either one and had to decide already.  Actually, I probably spent more time talking to the russian lady in the suit.


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 15, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> The only thing that really bugs me, is how the romance seems rather rushed. I guess because the main quest isn't very long. But it seems like I barely knew either one and had to decide already.  Actually, I probably spent more time to the russian lady in the suit.




The funny thing with the "choice" was that the first time, I was only really giving basic convo with Liara, and so it was a bit of a surprise that I was getting a "it's her or me" speech. 

And, yeah, Tali was a more interesting character, perhaps due to not being a love interest, she was given more "other" parts to play. On the one "what DLC for Mass Effect", a bunch of people said "Tali Love Interest Plot". 

The fact there's no idea what her race looks like is also funny. ("She's like a sexy jawa.")


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## trancejeremy (Dec 15, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Let's see....There's the big warehouse-style room, which is really boring tactically because you'll be taking heavy fire from virtually everyone at once, so your best tactical option is just to hole up at the entrance and let them enter your killzone. Then there's the one with the big killing room that leads into a hallway that has a small room on the left and right--again, all the bad guys tend to be packed in the one big room.
> 
> Um...what else is there? The cave/mine and the ships...
> 
> It really is hard to tell some times how ME spend four years in development. Other times, of course, it's great.




I'm starting to notice the repetition of side quest maps. It is surprising - I would have thought the game was built with a toolkit similar to NWN, and so maps wouldn't be too hard to make. Especially with so many people listed as working on the game.

Ages and ages ago, back when I was briefly an external tester on Daggerfall, before there was anything for us to test, BS put us to work making buildings and such for the game. You'd think Bioware would do the same.

I think ultimately the real solution for any sequels, though probably unlikely to happen, is procedural generation for the side quests and maps. You know, like in the Elite series


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## trancejeremy (Dec 15, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> The fact there's no idea what her race looks like is also funny. ("She's like a sexy jawa.")





You can see part of her face through her visor, though. Her eyes and a nose. Looks sort of cat like, though. And her armor is skin tight, so her body seems human-like enough.  So I actually thought eventually there would be a romance option, and she'd take off her mask.

I actually don't like the two real choices.  The human isn't bad, but it somewhat bugs me how she is named after Bruce Campbell's most famous character. Even her last name.


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 15, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> You can see part of her face through her visor, though. Her eyes and a nose. Looks sort of cat like, though. And her armor is skin tight, so her body seems human-like enough.  So I actually thought eventually there would be a romance option, and she'd take off her mask.



Her face is human looking enough that you can see, and she's got breasts, so she's a mammal maybe...

But, I mean, her legs are decidedly cyber/ alien. Still, much more interesting character.



> I actually don't like the two real choices.  The human isn't bad, but it somewhat bugs me how she is named after Bruce Campbell's most famous character. Even her last name.




I never noticed any of the characters "draw attention" to themselves, so I only talked to them on the ship. None of the paths really seemed that involved, Wrex was cool enough, but brief. Garrus was boring, the two humans were so-so, Liara was bleh. Only Tali was fun for me really.

When you had to make a choice, I was running a Wrex/ Tali group, and didn't really care.


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 16, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I'm starting to notice the repetition of side quest maps. It is surprising - I would have thought the game was built with a toolkit similar to NWN, and so maps wouldn't be too hard to make. Especially with so many people listed as working on the game.




From what I've seen, Mass Effect, while a great game, suffered some from the time crunch. I was watching the 06 E3 trailer, and you can see how features were scaled back, and the shortage of backstory and sidequests. Most of that stuff seems pretty "early development" stuff, so maybe there was a good sized change late in development and they had to rush in some cleanup. Some of the choices don't seem to really matter much (such as Anderson at the end) and it might be that.

But, they have said they'll have downloadable content, so I'm eager and waiting.


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## trancejeremy (Dec 18, 2007)

Ugh. The game really _is_ short.  I thought I did a lot of side-quests and it took me 25 hours to finish. I thought I had another 10 hours or so (since I had thought I had done a lot of side quests), I was caught by surprise.. 

I hope this isn't the fate of all future RPGs, to be really short, because so much effort is done on graphics. 5 years to make a 25 hour RPG? (with padding)


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## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 18, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Ugh. The game really _is_ short.  I thought I did a lot of side-quests and it took me 25 hours to finish. I thought I had another 10 hours or so (since I had thought I had done a lot of side quests), I was caught by surprise..




I haven't played the game, so don't think I'm defending this shortcoming or anything.  But a lot of people are already working on second or third run-throughs, playing the game as a different class, choosing different options in the dialog wheel, etc.  Do you not feel the game is worth playing a second time?

KOTOR is not what I would call a long game, but I played through it twice just to experience both the light and dark side playstyles and options.  I suspect Mass Effect will have an even better playthrough experience than this because there are more options than "really really good guy" or "really really evil guy."


----------



## Enforcer (Dec 18, 2007)

I don't know, but I've put 40 hrs. into my first runthrough. I've also probably done every sidequest, explored every planet completely, etc.


----------



## mmu1 (Dec 18, 2007)

Well, The Witcher might not be quite as long as the 80 hours I've seen claimed, but it's definitely a solid 40-50 hour game, so some people are still making long RPGs.

Mass Effect is damn short, though - I've intentionally done as many of the side quests as possible to drag it out, and it still feels too short. The main missions are great, but even there, the cut corners show - for example, the way on Foreas 



Spoiler



There's a mere handful of side-quests, and they're all accomplished by going down into the tiny basement area


 or how Noveria 



Spoiler



despite supposedly being a hotbed of corporate intrigue, has no quests not directly related to the main plot - just a couple of brief asides you can literally do in minutes


.

Makes you wonder where all the effort went - was it trouble with the Unreal 3 engine? Did working on all those great, expressive characters and a system allowing for cinematic in-engine cutscenes eat up such a big chunk of the art budget? Or was it the time they spent working on a more tactical combat system that was later scrapped? (anyone remember that E3 demo in which the guy playing was individually order squadmates to move to specific places? the game clearly played differently at one point, and they cut things back) Did they sink a bunch of effort into a dialogue system that really would have been revolutionary (again, anyone recall the clip they showed off as normal gameplay in which your character was able to cut Garrus off with an angry dialogue choice and grab him by the collar for emphasis?) but which they weren't able to implement properly?

I really like Mass Effect, but just like with the original NWN, I look back at what was promised and what we got and I see a significant discrepancy. Not something on a Fable or Black and White scale, of course, but definitely a case of the game falling way short of the marketing. 

My big hope is that, with the engine in place, the sequels will end up being much stronger, since - in theory, at least - they won't have to do much additional work in that department and will be able to concentrate on the story, and that how short Mass Effect was isn't just an unavoidable consequence of the cost of developing games with high-end visuals for next-gen consoles...


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## trancejeremy (Dec 18, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> I haven't played the game, so don't think I'm defending this shortcoming or anything.  But a lot of people are already working on second or third run-throughs, playing the game as a different class, choosing different options in the dialog wheel, etc.  Do you not feel the game is worth playing a second time?




Oh yeah, it's definitely worth playing again as a different class (Biotic) and sex (just to get different romance), indeed, I already started a new game. But the light side/dark side difference  seems much smaller in this. 

The game engine and the gameplay absolutely is brilliant. I was skeptical, not liking Jade Empire. I just wish it lasted longer.

The KOTORs lasted about twice as long, and IMHO, had more replay value. Maybe not from the game mechanical aspects, but from the story aspects. The story in this seems a little more linear, and the Paragon/Renegade choices don't seem to have much impact on the outcome of events.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 18, 2007)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> My big hope is that, with the engine in place, the sequels will end up being much stronger, since - in theory, at least - they won't have to do much additional work in that department and will be able to concentrate on the story, and that how short Mass Effect was isn't just an unavoidable consequence of the cost of developing games with high-end visuals for next-gen consoles...




I'll be interested in seeing how the downloadable content plays out myself. If it's too much for too little, it'll sink the experience for me, but it could be fun. Otherwise, ME2 should be a good improvement over 1 and ME3 should be a good story experience to seal the trilogy.


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## ohGr (Dec 19, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> The KOTORs lasted about twice as long, and IMHO, had more replay value.



That wasn't my experience.  My first time through both KotORs took ~20 hours with replays in the 10-12 hour range.  My first time through Mass Effect was ~40 hours with replays being ~25 hours.  In all cases, this is with doing the vast majority of the game.  (In the one replay of ME i did on Insanity i rushed through it doing only the main quest, and that still took me ~10 hours; about as long as a total-game replay of either KotOR.)

As for replay value, i think Mass Effect will hold my interest more in the long run.  I'm already on my _sixth_ play-through.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 19, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> The story in this seems a little more linear, and the Paragon/Renegade choices don't seem to have much impact on the outcome of events.




I've heard this complaint before, but judging from what I've read an seen, I don't totally see this as a problem.  I see the game as the latest and greatest in "Choose Your Own Adventure" type stories.  Most of the outcomes get you to the same general place, but it's more about the journey than the conclusion.  I don't know, I'm just going to have to play it to see how I feel.  If it is a kind of "spiritual successor" to KOTOR, I should be ok with it. the   Aside from the order in which I did each planet, I felt KOTOR and KOTOR2 had a very specific story and outcomes in mind.



			
				ohGr said:
			
		

> As for replay value, i think Mass Effect whole hold my interest more in the long run. I'm already on my sixth play-through.




That's what I like to hear!  Depending on how much I enjoy the game, I see at least 3 playthroughs in my future.  The Soldier/Tech/Biotic dynamic seems worth it all by itself.  And I'm something of an achievement whore, so I'll get as many of those as I can too.


----------



## ThirdWizard (Dec 24, 2007)

Just finished! It took me over 40 hours to play through, I hit level 50, and I'm starting up a Soldier character for my 2nd play through (1st was Vanguard). I got two "impossible" influences in my game, too. It was great when I 



Spoiler



convinced Wrex to stay with me and broke Saren's mind control and he killed himself so that he couldn't be used as a pawn anymore


! Sweet. 

Also:
[sblock]Did anyone else get a very Lovecraftian feel near the end? Unknowable beings from beyond the stars coming to destroy the sentient life for some unfathomable reason, manipulating events in our worlds toward a secretive end, and Sovereign even looked like a giant Cthulhuesque spaceship, squid-like and everything![/sblock]


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 24, 2007)

The Protheans definitely looked like mind flayers, if that helps.


----------



## jbravodude (Dec 24, 2007)

*Thanks everyone!!*

I actually am getting an Xbox for the kids this Christmas (yes its for the kids, not me.   What are you thinking?)  And I honestly hadn't considered Mass Effect much.  But after reading through all the posts, I've been thinking more and more that I need to give it a try.  I have always enjoyed everything that Bioware has put out (I haven't tried Jade Empire either), so I'm now thinking that I would like this one as well.

JB


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## trancejeremy (Dec 25, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> The Protheans definitely looked like mind flayers, if that helps.




Yeah, but so does that blue alien chick, sort of. Except her tentacles are combed backwards.

Maybe the male ones were the Protheans (the tentacles on the face being where the beard would be?)


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 25, 2007)

Hmmm... so I popped the disc in, spent about 25 minutes making a character, and the whole thing locks up during the first conversation with Nihilus.  Got an unreadable disc error, but the disc looks fine to me; not a scratch or smudge on it.

Hope it's not a sign of things to come...


----------



## Enforcer (Dec 25, 2007)

Ouch, that's no good. I've had zero problems with the game after 40 hrs., sounds like your disc (and hopefully not your 360) has issues.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 25, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Hmmm... so I popped the disc in, spent about 25 minutes making a character, and the whole thing locks up during the first conversation with Nihilus.  Got an unreadable disc error, but the disc looks fine to me; not a scratch or smudge on it.
> 
> Hope it's not a sign of things to come...




How old is your 360?

What happened with mine, was it'd lock up on a certain area, and then I noticed the disc finish was scuffed. I scrubbed it clean and it worked fine, then locked up again after that. I swapped the disc, and there were no scratches when it locked up again. I traded off my 360 for an elite soon after, and it didn't happen with other games.

From reading online, it seems to be happening a lot with Mass Effect. From what I read, the game doesn't cache like other games and this results in a lot of DVD reading which is hard on the drive and the disc. It seems to be a combination of the game and the system (or at least the older drives).


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 26, 2007)

It could be the 360.  Assassin's Creed froze up on me the other day, but at a really strange time (as Altair was about to kill a guard with the hidden blade).  However, the 'box is only a month old, and otherwise I've never had a problem with any of my other games.  I don't have the Elite model... I've got the 20g (whatever the heck that's called).

But one thing I've noticed about Mass Effect is that it is very... stuttery.  The frame rate drops significantly when the disc is thinking (during an autosave, after hitting A to start a conversation).  Combat is fine, but conversations and cutscenes can be choppy.  I suspect that's just part of the non-caching issues, which I've also read about.  Doesn't make the game unplayable; just not as smooth as I was expecting.

So far the game's pretty fun.  I've been doing a lot of the intel stuff, and haven't gotten much further past the first conversation with the Council and Saren.  But I haven't had a freeze like the one this morning.


----------



## trancejeremy (Dec 26, 2007)

Yeah, ME is very load intensive - odd they didn't use the hard drive - I guess they figured it had such broad appeal a lot of core/acrade owners would buy it.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what other people's Shepherds look like. I started trying to make myself, but ended up looking more like Tony Dungy.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 26, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> It could be the 360.  Assassin's Creed froze up on me the other day, but at a really strange time (as Altair was about to kill a guard with the hidden blade).  However, the 'box is only a month old, and otherwise I've never had a problem with any of my other games.  I don't have the Elite model... I've got the 20g (whatever the heck that's called).



The models are the same, aside from the HD and such. So you shouldn't have a problem. There's always a chance of a game locking anyway, and the new games push the systems more. 



> But one thing I've noticed about Mass Effect is that it is very... stuttery.  The frame rate drops significantly when the disc is thinking (during an autosave, after hitting A to start a conversation).



I actually turned off autosaves, they were too irritating.

Load times I didn't hate, but wish that they'd used a little more thought in how often they trip load screens. Having to hop from ship to C-sec to wherever you wanted to go...


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 26, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Yeah, ME is very load intensive - odd they didn't use the hard drive - I guess they figured it had such broad appeal a lot of core/acrade owners would buy it.




MS says that no game can require the HD, so it has to be able to run off the disc, but most games will cache to the HD when it's available. ME doesn't seem to do that (or at least, not as much as it could).


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 26, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Anyway, I'm curious as to what other people's Shepherds look like. I started trying to make myself, but ended up looking more like Tony Dungy.




I tried really, really hard to make Angelina Jolie, but in the end I was really dissatisfied with her eyes... just didn't look like her.  So I ended up making a severe-yet-not-unattractive women with somewhat asian/indian features (dark skin, exotic eyes, very small of face, thin, etc.)  It's not exactly what I wanted, but I've grown pretty attached to the character.  Her physical demeanor fits her attitude, which is pretty harsh.


----------



## Enforcer (Dec 27, 2007)

I finally finished my first runthrough last night. Really good story, I enjoyed it. I am miffed that I got none of the Ally achievements though...especially since I had Tali in my party from the very second I met her. Ah well.

I'm playing it again on Hardcore, with a Sentinel. So far Biotics are way more fun than Soldiering was.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 27, 2007)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> I finally finished my first runthrough last night. Really good story, I enjoyed it. I am miffed that I got none of the Ally achievements though...especially since I had Tali in my party from the very second I met her. Ah well.




Did you hit every sidequest?

Remember, the completionist and ally achievements are for total game, not just core plot.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 27, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Remember, the completionist and ally achievements are for total game, not just core plot.




It's something like 15 missions, 45 assignments for each ally achievement... or maybe it's the reverse, I get the two confused.  Anyway, 15 story quests, 45 side quests.  No idea if that's true, but it would make sense.

Anyway, despite my initial problems I know I like this game, because when I'm not actually playing it, I'm talking about it.  Yeah, good stuff.


----------



## Enforcer (Dec 27, 2007)

Oh, I definitely got Completionist. I did EVERYTHING.


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## ohGr (Dec 27, 2007)

The Tali achievement might have the same problem as the Liara one: if you do too many side-missions before getting her, you don't have enough left to get the achievement.


----------



## Enforcer (Dec 27, 2007)

That's what I'm afraid of. Oh well. This time around I'm keeping in mind the Ally Achievements. I figure I'll have no problem getting the Garrus and Ashley ones, given that they're your first two party members after Kaiden. Besides, I need their combat abilities if I'm a Sentinel this time.


----------



## Simplicity (Dec 27, 2007)

The unreadable disc error is very common with older 360s.  The DVD players in the older models (not elite vs. premium vs. core...  I'm just talking about console AGE) can't keep up very well.  Though some people have said that they've been able to scrub off little scuffs, mostly if you're getting that error...  learn to live with it.  :-/


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 27, 2007)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> The unreadable disc error is very common with older 360s.  The DVD players in the older models (not elite vs. premium vs. core...  I'm just talking about console AGE) can't keep up very well.  Though some people have said that they've been able to scrub off little scuffs, mostly if you're getting that error...  learn to live with it.  :-/




Gah... and I just bought mine in November... so likely it was sitting in the back room of that K-Mart for 2+ years.  Crap.  Of course, there's probably no way to check that.  And if there is, I wouldn't have known about it.  Oh well, maybe I'll get the red rings and trade it in for a newer one.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 28, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Gah... and I just bought mine in November... so likely it was sitting in the back room of that K-Mart for 2+ years.  Crap.  Of course, there's probably no way to check that.  And if there is, I wouldn't have known about it.  Oh well, maybe I'll get the red rings and trade it in for a newer one.




Nyah, the odds of it sitting that long are slim. It should have a MFR Date right on the tag at the back even. There's also online photo's of the different DVD trays if you're curious.

If yours is HDMI then it's pretty new.

Anyway, the scuff's aren't normal scratches, you scrub them off with some dishsoap and stuff and you'll be good to go for a while, but it can happen again anyway.


----------



## trancejeremy (Dec 28, 2007)

So anyone hear anything about downloadable content? I sprung for a 1600 point card in anticipation, but I've spent most of that on Gyruss and Catan...


----------



## John Crichton (Dec 28, 2007)

Just finished.  Great ending, as expected.  Time to bump the difficulty level and play a biotic.


----------



## takyris (Dec 30, 2007)

Still haven't beaten the darn game. Hopefully my repaired 360 comes back soon-ish.


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## John Crichton (Dec 30, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> Still haven't beaten the darn game. Hopefully my repaired 360 comes back soon-ish.



That eats. RRoD?  

How long has it been gone?


----------



## takyris (Dec 31, 2007)

Sadly, it ain't even gone yet. I left for the U.S. before Christmas, and the shipping box hadn't arrived yet.

Not RROD, though -- some disk tray error, where it can no longer read any disk.

Right in the middle of the geth incursion bit where you're hacking your way through base after base. I was in the LAST ROOM. 

Ah, well.


----------



## John Crichton (Dec 31, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> Sadly, it ain't even gone yet. I left for the U.S. before Christmas, and the shipping box hadn't arrived yet.
> 
> Not RROD, though -- some disk tray error, where it can no longer read any disk.
> 
> ...



 Doh!  I've heard good things about the turnaround time once the machine gets back to MS.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 31, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Nyah, the odds of it sitting that long are slim. It should have a MFR Date right on the tag at the back even. There's also online photo's of the different DVD trays if you're curious.
> 
> If yours is HDMI then it's pretty new.
> 
> Anyway, the scuff's aren't normal scratches, you scrub them off with some dishsoap and stuff and you'll be good to go for a while, but it can happen again anyway.




I just checked the MFR... 9/2006.... more than a year old.  I am not happy.  So I guess as games get better, my 'box is going to be less and less able to handle them.

I don't suppose there's anything I can do about this?  Would Xbox replace the old DVD tray if I asked them to?


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 31, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> I just checked the MFR... 9/2006.... more than a year old.  I am not happy.  So I guess as games get better, my 'box is going to be less and less able to handle them.
> 
> I don't suppose there's anything I can do about this?  Would Xbox replace the old DVD tray if I asked them to?




If I were you, I'd box it back up, return it to Kmart and say it was a Christmas present for someone, and they already have one, or tell them it was a gift, but the system is so old that it's not up to date.

Seriously, there's more than just an updated DVD drive in that time frame.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, I've considered doing that.  I still have the receipt, unfortunately I think it's a 30-day return policy.  So who knows whether or not K-mart would be willing to exchange.  It's probably worth a shot though.

Edit: there's also the issue of my hard drive, which has a lot of important stuff on it (my ME and Oblivion save files are the most important.)


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jan 4, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Yeah, I've considered doing that.  I still have the receipt, unfortunately I think it's a 30-day return policy.  So who knows whether or not K-mart would be willing to exchange.  It's probably worth a shot though.
> 
> Edit: there's also the issue of my hard drive, which has a lot of important stuff on it (my ME and Oblivion save files are the most important.)





Well, you can erase your profile so none of your info remains, and save files might represent lots of work, but they're repeatable.

Also, as I said, if you explain it was a christmas gift and return it soon, they'll probably return it.

That said, if you don't return it, I'd fully expect to have to return it to MS someday. Probably the next time there's a big game like Halo3 or Bioshock. (Halo3 killed my original.)

Not a big deal, it just depends on which you think is the least hassle.


----------



## trancejeremy (Jan 4, 2008)

You might try to get a cheap memory card and transfer your saves. I think 64 meg one are $20 or so these days.  Not super-cheap, but better than having to replay a lot.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Jan 4, 2008)

Is there a warranty on the 360 from Microsoft?  Even if KMart won't take it back, a warranty usually starts from teh date of purchase... so if you send a copy/fax of the receipt with it, it'll still be replaceable by Microsoft.  Just tell them you're getting the disk errors, and they'll probably replace it no questions asked, since it's not an unknown error.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jan 4, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Is there a warranty on the 360 from Microsoft?  Even if KMart won't take it back, a warranty usually starts from teh date of purchase... so if you send a copy/fax of the receipt with it, it'll still be replaceable by Microsoft.  Just tell them you're getting the disk errors, and they'll probably replace it no questions asked, since it's not an unknown error.




Yeah, you can start the warranty at purchase, and even by an extended warranty within 20 days or something.

If he sends it in, they'll probably just replace the drive with another refurb one or something.

Either way, he's got an old motherboard and such, it doesn't really make sense to keep it if he can swap it for a new one that consumes less power, is more reliable, and comes with two free games.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Jan 4, 2008)

Good news:  looked at my receipt last night and was surprised to find that I can return it until 2/11/08.  Thanks for everyone's input on the subject, looks like I should be ok.



> That said, if you don't return it, I'd fully expect to have to return it to MS someday. Probably the next time there's a big game like Halo3 or Bioshock. (Halo3 killed my original.)




Halo 3 runs perfectly on my 'box, but that's ok because ME appears to have stripped the DVD player of its usefulness.  I'm now getting intermitant unreadable errors on all my games.  Such is life, but the problem will soon be remedied.

Oh, and just so we stay on topic:  I created a reasonable Zach Quinto/Sylar look-alike last night.  He's a biotic of course.  But the real triumph is my gf's creation:  Commander Jean-Luc Shepard.  One guess as to what _he_ looks like


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jan 7, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Halo 3 runs perfectly on my 'box, but that's ok because ME appears to have stripped the DVD player of its usefulness.  I'm now getting intermitant unreadable errors on all my games.  Such is life, but the problem will soon be remedied.




The way I figure it, regular variances in manufacturing mean some systems are weaker than others. They'll work fine until a game that pushes the hardware pushes them in just the "wrong" spot for that system. So every now and then when a new hi-end game comes out, systems fail in waves.

(especially when dealing with long-playing-session games like ME)



> Oh, and just so we stay on topic:  I created a reasonable Zach Quinto/Sylar look-alike last night.  He's a biotic of course.  But the real triumph is my gf's creation:  Commander Jean-Luc Shepard.  One guess as to what _he_ looks like




After my first & second didn't come out the way I wanted them when gameplay showed it, I just made more neutral faces myself.

Haven't played in a while, been playing Assassins Creed.


----------



## Falkus (Jan 12, 2008)

I just finished this the other day as a paragon, female Vanguard.

This is Bioware's best RPG to date, hands down.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 12, 2008)

I enjoyed it too!

While I admit it could have used some polish, I enjoyed it pretty thoroughly.

Now it's all about ME2...and Dragon Age...

Mwah.


----------



## trancejeremy (Jan 12, 2008)

I've been trying to play a 2nd game, but I Just can't get into it again.  The gameplay is fun, but the dialogue is just really bad the 2nd time through (wasn't that great the first time). You can hit X to try to get them to shut up, but sometimes you hit it too much and you answer instead.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, out of all the NPCs in the game, including ones not in your party, I only like Captain Anderson and the chick in the enviromental suit.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Jan 12, 2008)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> but the dialogue is just really bad the 2nd time through (wasn't that great the first time).




I don't really agree with that, but YMMV as always.  I like the voice actors quite a bit; I think this game is a big step up in terms of VG acting.  Sure it's not perfect, and not everyone is great (I'm lookin' at you, Marina Sirtis), but it's still very good, and far and away better than anything else I've played with this kind of cast.

I'm in the middle of a Game+ mode and I'm having a great time.  I thought I'd get bored playing my soldier again, but I love playing with the different weapon types and upgrade combos.  I also started an adept, solely for the purpose of getting the Singularity achievement so I can play a Vanguard with Shotgun + Singularity.


----------



## Enforcer (Jan 12, 2008)

I've found the dialog to still be great the 2nd time through. Of course, playing as a Renegade instead of a Paragon keeps things fresh.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jan 12, 2008)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I've been trying to play a 2nd game, but I Just can't get into it again.  The gameplay is fun, but the dialogue is just really bad the 2nd time through (wasn't that great the first time). You can hit X to try to get them to shut up, but sometimes you hit it too much and you answer instead.
> 
> I dunno, maybe it's just me, out of all the NPCs in the game, including ones not in your party, I only like Captain Anderson and the chick in the enviromental suit.




For me, I generally do these games the same way:
!) I play the game for a couple hours to get the hang of it, then restart with what I learned to make a character I want to play.
2) I play that character through, focusing on main plot and interesting sideplots that present themselves to me.
3) I make another character and fill in all the details of the game, most sideplots and such.

So, dialogue wasn't bad 3rd time, since I hadn't experienced it all. The "x = option" thing irritated me though, yeah.

I liked Wrex, but he didn't get enough dialogue. Tali was my favorite. Both humans had some depth, but neither interested me a whole lot, and Liara didn't seem like more than a blue love-interest. Gareth seemed fun, but not a lot of depth and he kept dying so I didn't use him.

Still a fun game.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jan 12, 2008)

Though of course, the promised DLC would have made it replayable...

I've gotten a lot of use out of Assassins Creed though, so no worries.


----------



## Neo (Jan 22, 2008)

i mostly party with the turian and Ashley 9his aimed love interest), and my main character is a tony stark look-alike infiltrator.

i was a bit thrown by Liara when  I first bothered to go get her 9around level 19), as no sooner was she on ym ship then ashley was saying the scuttlebutt was I was interested on her and Liara was all but confessing her undying love for me and i hadnt even spoken to her... i was left thinking the dialogue for her was a bit rushed and directed.

Anyway by the second developing conversation with her i was able to tell her i liked Ashley instead and that i only wanted to be friends with her (ooo what a cringe worthy cliche).

I have to say i am enjoying this game immensely plus it seems to have a heap of potential for a possible pnp RPG as well as a good basis for an MMO imho.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Jan 22, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Though of course, the promised DLC would have made it replayable...




The DLC would've been a nice bonus, but it's not really necessary.  The game has a lot of replay value as far as I'm concerned.  There are 6 classes that each play differently from each other, not to mention the ally and hardcore/insanity achievements.  All that has kept me coming back to the game.

I beat my second runthrough on Sunday and have started a game with an Adept and a shotgun.  Still terribly hooked on this game, though I've slowed down a lot since getting into Oblivion and Super Mario Galaxy as well.


----------



## takyris (Jan 22, 2008)

I believe the company is on record as stating that DLC will happen.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Jan 22, 2008)

takyris said:
			
		

> I believe the company is on record as stating that DLC will happen.




Oh yeah, I figured DLC was coming down the line, it's just not something I _need_ two months out.  Others might feel differently, but I'm having great fun with the basic game.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jan 23, 2008)

takyris said:
			
		

> I believe the company is on record as stating that DLC will happen.




I believe the original record was DLC by end of 07. I think that was before the buyout and probably invalidated, but that was the last I heard of it from last year.


----------



## stonegod (Feb 3, 2008)

Just finished getting Extreme Power Gamer on my 5th run through (Female Shepard Paragon Adept---Singularity FTW). Funny thing is, I still found new things going through the game (doing the planets in different order and mixing up my party since I already has the Ally achievements). Definitely a fun time.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 6, 2008)

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/marketplace/m/masseffect/bringdownthesky.htm

DLC in early March.


----------



## Felon (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm puzzled that anyone could see ME as having replay value. DLC will be welcome.


----------



## John Crichton (Feb 6, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> I'm puzzled that anyone could see ME as having replay value. DLC will be welcome.



 It has been for me due to playing bad vs good and male vs female.  It's not as good as KotOR in that respect but still fun.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 7, 2008)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> It has been for me due to playing bad vs good and male vs female.  It's not as good as KotOR in that respect but still fun.



 For me its the classes.

I've done the male/female and the paragon/renegade but its really all about the classes. That, and I just can't seem to not play a paragon. I feel like such a jerk otherwise.


----------



## trancejeremy (Feb 7, 2008)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/marketplace/m/masseffect/bringdownthesky.htm
> 
> DLC in early March.




I would be more excited if that screenshot didn't show the same exact map that was used in about 10 of the sidequests already in the game.


----------



## John Crichton (Feb 7, 2008)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> For me its the classes.
> 
> I've done the male/female and the paragon/renegade but its really all about the classes. That, and I just can't seem to not play a paragon. I feel like such a jerk otherwise.



 This is true, too.  I forgot about the Tech/Biotic/Grunt thing.


----------



## Goose (Feb 7, 2008)

Hey guys, this may be the wrong place to ask this, but I need some help.  I love the game except for the vehicle sequences, i always seem to get blown away long before i can even think of dropping the enemys.  Its made me put this game down 3 times and not continue playing for a while due to frustration.  Now im pretty good at games and have no idea what im doing wrong.  Mainly is whenever there is a long passage with 17 bad guys with rocket launchers that I have trouble with.  Anybody have any tips on how to get through those without getting blown up?

Again, sorry if this isnt the right place to ask, but being deployed in kuwait my internet website choices are limited.


----------



## Enforcer (Feb 7, 2008)

Goose said:
			
		

> Hey guys, this may be the wrong place to ask this, but I need some help.  I love the game except for the vehicle sequences, i always seem to get blown away long before i can even think of dropping the enemys.  Its made me put this game down 3 times and not continue playing for a while due to frustration.  Now im pretty good at games and have no idea what im doing wrong.  Mainly is whenever there is a long passage with 17 bad guys with rocket launchers that I have trouble with.  Anybody have any tips on how to get through those without getting blown up?
> 
> Again, sorry if this isnt the right place to ask, but being deployed in kuwait my internet website choices are limited.



Left Trigger will zoom, Left Trigger + Right Stick Button will REALLY zoom in. Then use your cannon (RB) to own anything you want from about 300m away. From that distance you can dance out of the way of incoming rockets with ease while your enemies won't be that smart.


----------



## John Crichton (Feb 7, 2008)

Goose said:
			
		

> Hey guys, this may be the wrong place to ask this, but I need some help.  I love the game except for the vehicle sequences, i always seem to get blown away long before i can even think of dropping the enemys.  Its made me put this game down 3 times and not continue playing for a while due to frustration.  Now im pretty good at games and have no idea what im doing wrong.  Mainly is whenever there is a long passage with 17 bad guys with rocket launchers that I have trouble with.  Anybody have any tips on how to get through those without getting blown up?
> 
> Again, sorry if this isnt the right place to ask, but being deployed in kuwait my internet website choices are limited.



 Well timed jumping can also help avoid the rockets.


----------



## trancejeremy (Feb 7, 2008)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> Left Trigger will zoom, Left Trigger + Right Stick Button will REALLY zoom in. Then use your cannon (RB) to own anything you want from about 300m away. From that distance you can dance out of the way of incoming rockets with ease while your enemies won't be that smart.




Yup, zoom in max and try to snipe enemies. Use cover, too, sometimes you can place the Mako so it's just over the edge of terrain.


----------



## Goose (Feb 7, 2008)

Well i just found that the right bumper button is a higher caliber gun, it made it all much easier, i had previously been trying it with only the machine gun.  I feel like such a noob


----------



## John Crichton (Feb 7, 2008)

Goose said:
			
		

> Well i just found that the right bumper button is a higher caliber gun, it made it all much easier, i had previously been trying it with only the machine gun.  I feel like such a noob



 Yeah, the BFG helps ... alot.


----------



## Goose (Feb 7, 2008)

Altho, after playing it for the past few hours, im finding some of the fights are just needlessly difficult.  Pretty much any special fight with a special person, some take me 10+ times to beat.  Im using my cover, using my abilities, just cant take any damage before im killed.  Even with Barrier im getting killed in one or two hits most of the time.  I just shut off the game after getting killed like 15 times against the Matriarch lady.  Shes tough enough, yet they send in like 12 commandos at the same time.  Cover isnt working and im getting killed from all sides before i can even get more than a few shots off.  And the few times i dont get killed right away my teammates do, leave me (an adept) to try and clear out the rest of the bad guys.

Maybe im just getting old and im not nearly as good at games as i used to be, or this combat dosent seem very tactical and its more of a get lucky type system in the big fights.

Or maybe its my frustration talking.....


----------



## takyris (Feb 7, 2008)

What level are you in the fight against Benezia? That's likely the hardest fight in the game, and people who do that world first without doing some of the uncharted worlds to gain a few levels have run into a world of hurt. (The same can be said for the krogan boss at the end of another major plot world.)

In vehicles, other people have had good suggestions. I pick one of two strategies with the Mako in a given fight. I either hang way back and use the cannon on zoom (jumping over incoming attacks), or I just drive hard right into their midst, hit the cannon a couple of times, and then get out of my vehicle and fight the (weakened, from my cannons) bad guys on foot. You get more experience that way, and you can use your abilities. Throwing a geth armature into stasis, or using AI Hacking on it, is all kinds of wonderful.

Also, just to cover all the bases for things that I've seen people miss:

- Are you upgrading your armor and weapons with weapon mods?
- Are you spending your talent points at each new level?
- Are you doing the same for both followers?
- Are you using your powers in fights?

(I've seen people not do all of these things.)


----------



## Goose (Feb 7, 2008)

Ya, ive been doing all that stuff, im an RPG veteren, but it appears my problem is probably that this was my first planet (there was no indication that i should level up first)  and have already wasted hours here trying to get to her. I figured the game had a kind of auto-level adjust kind of like KoTOR, but maybe it dosent and that could very well be my problem.


----------



## Enforcer (Feb 7, 2008)

I was able to beat Benezia on Normal, with her being my first planet. Just take out the commandos first, ignoring her. Use your party's abilities (Wrex and Garrus both have good stuff) as much as possible. It's doable.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Feb 7, 2008)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> I was able to beat Benezia on Normal, with her being my first planet. Just take out the commandos first, ignoring her. Use your party's abilities (Wrex and Garrus both have good stuff) as much as possible. It's doable.




I haven't seen it mentioned, but what level are you, and what class are you playing?  Where have you placed your skill points?  What party members do you have?  All these questions are important, because your tactics are going to vary based on that.  Since you mentioned Barrier, I'm guess you're an Adept/Vanguard/Sentinel.  If that's the case, try and direct your party members offensively while you stay in the back.  As an Adept/Sentinel you should have a lot of powers; use them.  Warp, Throw, Lift, Sabotage, Overload, and Neural Shock are extremely useful and should be popped after every cooldown.  As a Vanguard, whip out that shotgun and start nuking things with Carnage.  Use those tight corners to your advantage; the minions tend to bunch up in them as well.  If you're finding yourself pretty fragile in these fights, use the command buttons on the D-pad to have them advance forward ahead of you and attack your targets.  Perhaps set the AI to Offensive, so you needn't worry about them using party powers; they tend to go balls-to-the-wall and will typically unload abilities left and right.  Stay out of Benezia's line of sight (her pistol attacks do disgusting amounts of damage) and focus on her minons.  Maybe pull out a weapon with Combat Optics, so when she summons the Geth your radar isn't scrambled.

Even if Noveria is your first planet, you should've leveled up quite a bit from all the stuff you've had to kill.  I think I was level 20 when I killed her with my Adept, on Veteran.  You can beat her.  Try and vary what you're doing.  Benezia's no pushover, but she's beatable.


----------



## ohGr (Feb 8, 2008)

One important note about that fight is to get the hell out of your starting position ASAP; run to the platform on your right immediately when the fight starts.  If you're on the right side of the room, the tank with the rachni queen blocks Benezia's line-of-sight to you, taking her out of the equation completely.  Now you can pick off the squads of asari commandos and geth snipers at your leisure without having her constantly screwing with you.


----------



## Felon (Feb 23, 2008)

ohGr said:
			
		

> One important note about that fight is to get the hell out of your starting position ASAP; run to the platform on your right immediately when the fight starts.  If you're on the right side of the room, the tank with the rachni queen blocks Benezia's line-of-sight to you, taking her out of the equation completely.  Now you can pick off the squads of asari commandos and geth snipers at your leisure without having her constantly screwing with you.




Better yet, get to an angle where she's out of line-of-sight, but you can still lob grenades and (if you got'em) tech mines into her area.

There are also armor upgrades that protect against biotic powers. They are easy to overlook.


----------



## Felon (Feb 23, 2008)

OK, now it's my turn to request a spoiler:



Spoiler



I have just finished Feros, and am now rebel scum fleeing the Council. If I go to Ilos, am I locked into finishing the game? Do I need to go ahead and wrap up loose ends first?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 23, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> OK, now it's my turn to request a spoiler:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 [sblock]Illos is the point of no return. Once you hit that planet, its full on out to the end of the game.

So yeah, definitely finish up any side-quests and such before you head there.[/sblock]


----------



## Felon (Feb 23, 2008)

Thanks!

Funny thing is though, there are no achievements for doing side quests, so even if I try to go for those last couple heavy metals or Promethean artifacts, I'm not sure there's much of a point, besides trying to squeeze every drop of XP I can in order to hit level 60.


----------



## ohGr (Feb 23, 2008)

Getting to lvl 60 requires an absolutely _brutal_ amount of XP; so much, in fact, that i'm not even sure if it's possible in only two playthroughs.  Time-wise, it's faster and more efficient to simply ignore all the tedious, time-consuming side-missions and just power your way through the main storyline 3-4 times, if 60 is your goal.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 23, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> Thanks!
> 
> Funny thing is though, there are no achievements for doing side quests, so even if I try to go for those last couple heavy metals or Promethean artifacts, I'm not sure there's much of a point, besides trying to squeeze every drop of XP I can in order to hit level 60.



 Actually, there are. Its a bit indirect, though.

The Ally and Completionist Achievements require you to complete a certain number of quests. I believe its roughly 15 Story Missions and 45 Side Missions.


----------



## stonegod (Feb 23, 2008)

ohGr said:
			
		

> Getting to lvl 60 requires an absolutely _brutal_ amount of XP; so much, in fact, that i'm not even sure if it's possible in only two playthroughs.  Time-wise, it's faster and more efficient to simply ignore all the tedious, time-consuming side-missions and just power your way through the main storyline 3-4 times, if 60 is your goal.



It helps if you've gotten the achievements to boot XP. My 51st level Adept got to 60th in her second go around and long enough before the endgame (after Ilos) that it should be possible in 2 playthroughs (one to unlock 50+, another to do it).


----------



## Arnwyn (Feb 25, 2008)

ohGr said:
			
		

> Time-wise, it's faster and more efficient to simply ignore all the tedious, time-consuming side-missions



In every RPG I've played, side-missions are quite fun. Is this not the case with Mass Effect?


----------



## Blackrat (Feb 25, 2008)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> In every RPG I've played, side-missions are quite fun. Is this not the case with Mass Effect?



They start to repeat themselves quite quickly. Maybe the first playthrough they are almost enjoyable to go through but not later.


----------



## John Crichton (Feb 25, 2008)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> In every RPG I've played, side-missions are quite fun. Is this not the case with Mass Effect?



 They do get kinda repetitive but I found them kinda fun as I got to flex my muscles of a high level character by that point.  I actually found the Mako driving parts the most frustrating overall, especially the combat.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Feb 25, 2008)

Side missions are kind of comparable to other games, like Oblivion. Once you've seen the same ruins for the 15th time, it loses luster.

ME only has a few "models" of side-quest buildings, so it's noticeable.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Feb 25, 2008)

So now that we know DLC is on its way, I'm curious to know if any of you are surprised/upset that this content is not "plug-n-play."  For those of you that don't know, you need access to the galaxy map in order to access the extra mission.  So there are brief windows at the beginning and end of the game where it cannot be accessed.

I'm just wondering if there is any general dissatisfaction with this decision.  Personally, this is exactly what I expected from the DLC; the fact that it's limited by access to the galaxy map doesn't really bug me, because a) ME is not a plug-n-play game and I would not expect its DLC to be plug-n-play and b) I have access to the galaxy map for over 90% of the game.  That brief 10% where I do not have access, I am involved in the main story plot, and therefore would not be pursuing sidequests of any sort anyway.


----------



## Felon (Feb 25, 2008)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Actually, there are. Its a bit indirect, though.
> 
> The Ally and Completionist Achievements require you to complete a certain number of quests. I believe its roughly 15 Story Missions and 45 Side Missions.




Well, the Ally achievements sound like they involve way too much effort (I'm not one of those folks who see so much replay value in ME that they'll play an ally for an entire game just to get a bonus on the playthrough). I got the Completionist achievement towards the end of Feros.

The one thing I seem to have missed the boat is the romance achievement. Since I'm on my way to Ilos now, I get the feeling I somehow screwed the pooch....or failed to screw it, so to speak.


----------



## stonegod (Feb 25, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> The one thing I seem to have missed the boat is the romance achievement. Since I'm on my way to Ilos now, I get the feeling I somehow screwed the pooch....or failed to screw it, so to speak.



Getting to the Ilos system isn't enough... the final stage triggers when you try to land on it. If you're on the dead world and nothing special happened first, you missed it.


----------



## Felon (Feb 25, 2008)

stonegod said:
			
		

> Getting to the Ilos system isn't enough... the final stage triggers when you try to land on it. If you're on the dead world and nothing special happened first, you missed it.



Thanks, was holding off for the DLC. Maybe I will finish and restart so I can get to the point where I'm at the galaxy map.


----------



## Arnwyn (Feb 25, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> I'm just wondering if there is any general dissatisfaction with this decision.



Yes, that sounds like something I would have expected.

Glad I haven't started playing it yet (and likely won't for quite some time) - I like getting all the DLC up front and _then_ playing through the game.


----------



## trancejeremy (Feb 25, 2008)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> In every RPG I've played, side-missions are quite fun. Is this not the case with Mass Effect?




Not really. Because there's only like 6 different maps for the sidequests, they get old real quick.


----------



## Enforcer (Feb 25, 2008)

That's no different from say, the Yavin Space Station for Knights of the Old Republic or even Durlag's Tower for Baldur's Gate. Both expansion/downloadable features were only available after you left the starting area, requiring the completion of the story up to that point.


----------



## Felon (Feb 25, 2008)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Not really. Because there's only like 6 different maps for the sidequests, they get old real quick.



Even referring to them as "maps" is kinda deceptive, since there's a connotation of complexity that doesn't exist here. I mean, a warehouse isn't much of a map, y'know? It's just one big room where you sit at the entrance at kill everyone dumb enough to come out from behind cover.

Comparing ME side quests to Oblivion side quests is almost a crime. Really not much comparison.


----------



## Felon (Feb 26, 2008)

Btw, hope that all Mass Effect fans are keeping an eye on the development of Too Human--which will likely blow away ME's gameplay and character development.

http://www.gamespot.com/video/928546/6186635/too-human-gdc-2008-demo


----------



## Goose (Feb 26, 2008)

I finished the game.  I enjoyed the story, but that was about it.  Character interaction was really almost non-existant.  The only time you really got to know your guys at all is if you went around the ship in between planets and said, "hi".  Really nothing beyond that.  I didnt notice any difference in peoples reactions to me based on being paragon or renegade.  It never really seemed to matter.  Overall i felt the game was a let down and the high reviews it got really werent justified.  

First, it was relatively short, unless you went around repeating the same side missions on all the different planets.  Honestly there was very little difference between the planents other than the color of the ground.

Second, you didnt seem to have any effect on your companions, you couldnt sway them on anything, they rarely actually had any input or opinions on a situation.  Overall they had just a few things to say and that was it.   Even the companions side storys were really boring and didnt really seem to develop the characters all that much.  The romances felt rushed and completely out of place.

Third,  The ability to truely feel good or evil, honestly there wasnt much difference in how you decided to go.  I understand they werent going for a good/evil, but some kind of choices that would have changed the outcome of the game woulda been a welcome idea.


Now dont get me wrong, overall i enjoyed my play through, but i dont think it was deserving of all the praise it was getting.  Kind of like how i felt about Fable, with just a few more hours of play tacked on to the end.


I guess part of my problem is i went in hoping for a KotOR type story/character interaction and it simply wasnt there.  Im not a huge star wars fan, but i managed to play both of them about 4 times a piece, because things actually felt different on some of the play throughs, i didnt get that with ME.


----------



## Arnwyn (Feb 26, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> Btw, hope that all Mass Effect fans are keeping an eye on the development of Too Human--which will likely blow away ME's gameplay and character development.
> 
> http://www.gamespot.com/video/928546/6186635/too-human-gdc-2008-demo



Has it gotten better? It's had an extremely troubled development, and it's last public showing (before this year's GDC at least) was _tremendously_ disappointing.

I sure hope they surprise me, because right now I'm likely to ignore it. I'm glad you seem optimistic, though (overly, IMO!  ).


----------



## Steel_Wind (Feb 26, 2008)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Not really. Because there's only like 6 different maps for the sidequests, they get old real quick.




They do indeed. This is one of the major knocks on the game. While vastly detailed planetary sidequests may well have been beyond the intended scope of the game, I am not persuaded that the planetary missions that were presented in the game were a "legitimate" default design choice. 

Just because vast and complex is inappropriate, does not mean that sketchy, underwhelming and repetitious is defenceable. There ought to have been a middle ground, imo. I can only conclude that BioWare thought they could get away without doing the work  - and spending the money to QA - that was required to reach that middle ground.

Seeing as they sold millions of copies of ME and got very positive metacritic reviews and a dozen or more RPG of the Year awards, maybe they were right.  

In terms of replay value, the single best choice for replay value would be choosing the female  Sheppard. The same voice actor who did Bastilla in KotOR, Jennifer Hale, does the voice acting for the femme Sheppard (though not in her "Bastilla" voice). 

Hale's voice talent is reason enough to make the female Sheppard the "default" avatar in the game.


----------



## Felon (Feb 26, 2008)

Goose said:
			
		

> Now dont get me wrong, overall i enjoyed my play through, but i dont think it was deserving of all the praise it was getting.  Kind of like how i felt about Fable, with just a few more hours of play tacked on to the end.




As a good as ME was, it felt very rushed and rough-around-the-edges in many areas...which is positively bizarre, because it was in development forever. The implementation of sidequests, the AI, character-building, and character-equipping were all very half-hearted.

And yes, ultimately the paragon/renegade thing really doesn't amount to much. I've reloaded enough encounters to know that more often than not Shepard winds up saying the exact same thing regardless of how you choose to say it.


----------



## Felon (Feb 26, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> They do indeed. This is one of the major knocks on the game. While vastly detailed planetary sidequests may well have been beyond the intended scope of the game, I am not persuaded that the planetary missions that were presented in the game were a "legitimate" default design choice.
> 
> Just because vast and complex is inappropriate, does not mean that sketchy, underwhelming and repetitious is defenceable. There ought to have been a middle ground, imo. I can only conclude that BioWare thought they could get away without doing the work  - and spending the money to QA - that was required to reach that middle ground.



Yeah, I was really surprised that thresher maws were the sole form of alien life that you encounter on a planet.


			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Seeing as they sold millions of copies of ME and got very positive metacritic reviews and a dozen or more RPG of the Year awards, maybe they were right.



If they just wanted to sell lots of copies of ME, they achieved their goal. If they're trying to create an enduring IP, they may find themselves overshadowed by upcoming games like Too Human.


----------



## Felon (Feb 26, 2008)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Has it gotten better? It's had an extremely troubled development, and it's last public showing (before this year's GDC at least) was _tremendously_ disappointing.
> 
> I sure hope they surprise me, because right now I'm likely to ignore it. I'm glad you seem optimistic, though (overly, IMO!  ).



Vast character-building options? Check. Vast character equipment selection options? Check. Those things really appeal to me.

What was so disappointing?


----------



## John Crichton (Feb 27, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> In terms of replay value, the single best choice for replay value would be choosing the female  Sheppard. The same voice actor who did Bastilla in KotOR, Jennifer Hale, does the voice acting for the femme Sheppard (though not in her "Bastilla" voice).
> 
> Hale's voice talent is reason enough to make the female Sheppard the "default" avatar in the game.



I couldn't agree more.  Her lines were delivered much better than the male VA.  Her badass level was higher because of it.


----------



## John Crichton (Feb 27, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> Yeah, I was really surprised that thresher maws were the sole form of alien life that you encounter on a planet.



You didn't hunt down any of those docile horse/cow things and disintegrate them?  For shame!



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> If they just wanted to sell lots of copies of ME, they achieved their goal. If they're trying to create an enduring IP, they may find themselves overshadowed by upcoming games like Too Human.



I don't think Too Human will have much effect at all concerning future sales of the Mass Effect franchise.  Anyone who liked the first one is already lining up for Part 2.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Feb 27, 2008)

Liking Mass Effect and liking Too Human are not mutually exclusive.  I can like both, and even buy both.    While I certainly acknowledge many of the complaints with ME's gameplay, I think the IP will remain strong and compelling despite flaws in the actual gameplay.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> Vast character-building options? Check. Vast character equipment selection options? Check. Those things really appeal to me.
> 
> What was so disappointing?




Ironically, my understanding was that the gameplay was really poor and obviously underdeveloped, specifically the camera and the control scheme were really interfering with play.

I will grant you that this was almost two years ago and likely Too Human has changed since its first showing  However, there is one difference:  Mass Effect is out in the market as a finished product, and Too Human is not.  Right now, there can be zero comparison between the two, because one is a completed product and the other is not.


----------



## Arnwyn (Feb 27, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> What was so disappointing?



As GoodKingJayIII mentioned, both the gameplay and camera (and then both of them together) were very poor. For a while, the graphics were also substandard (though recently cleaned up a little bit, thank goodness for small improvements, at least). Since gameplay and camera are pretty much among the two most important things for a game, this has caused a fair amount of concern, unsurprisingly.

After I read your comments I went back and checked IGN's coverage - and indeed, the gameplay and camera problems, while improved from the last E3, were still there at GDC, which were the same from a few months before when IGN went up to St. Catherines, Ont. to have a further look. Needless to say, there are still issues for a game that's been forever and a day in development; thus, your "blow away ME's gameplay" certainly raised my eyebrow, since all the reports so far say the exact opposite...

But, like I said, I'm glad you're optimistic, and I sincerely hope it's warranted (since I've been keeping an eye on it since it was announced for the PS1, for pete's sake!).



			
				GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Right now, there can be zero comparison between the two, because one is a completed product and the other is not.



Agreed.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Feb 27, 2008)

Goose said:
			
		

> Now dont get me wrong, overall i enjoyed my play through, but i dont think it was deserving of all the praise it was getting.  Kind of like how i felt about Fable, with just a few more hours of play tacked on to the end.




I thought it felt a lot like Fable, and also suffered from the "announcement issues" of Fable. Watch the old debut footage of what Mass Effect would be, and you'll see how it failed. Fable 2 looks to be doing great so far, and I hope ME2 cleans stuff up and enhances the franchise. In both cases, the initial game has enough good to make me want a sequel.




> I guess part of my problem is i went in hoping for a KotOR type story/character interaction and it simply wasnt there.  Im not a huge star wars fan, but i managed to play both of them about 4 times a piece, because things actually felt different on some of the play throughs, i didnt get that with ME.




When I was playing it, I kept thinking of different ways in which KotOR was a better game. I abhorred KotOR 2, so hopefully the ME franchise works out better.


----------



## Felon (Feb 27, 2008)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> You didn't hunt down any of those docile horse/cow things and disintegrate them?  For shame!



No, but I did mow down a few monkeys. They were annoying.



> I don't think Too Human will have much effect at all concerning future sales of the Mass Effect franchise.  Anyone who liked the first one is already lining up for Part 2.



And they may well get out of line as other games show them up. It happens. People don't still line up around the block for the next Doom or Quake, because now they have Halo. I think the number of people who played it and had a rather "meh" experience is not small.


			
				GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Liking Mass Effect and liking Too Human are not mutually exclusive.  I can like both, and even buy both.    While I certainly acknowledge many of the complaints with ME's gameplay, I think the IP will remain strong and compelling despite flaws in the actual gameplay.



Don't get me wrong, all the stuff that's disappoinging about ME only lowers it to about 4-out-5 stars. But I'm not just going to buy it on blind faith--unless, of course, there's nothing else that catches my interest at the time. 


> Ironically, my understanding was that the gameplay was really poor and obviously underdeveloped, specifically the camera and the control scheme were really interfering with play.
> 
> I will grant you that this was almost two years ago and likely Too Human has changed since its first showing  However, there is one difference:  Mass Effect is out in the market as a finished product, and Too Human is not.  Right now, there can be zero comparison between the two, because one is a completed product and the other is not.



There can certainly be more than zero comparison. It just can't be a conclusive comparison. For instance, I can already draw the comparison about equipment and character-building options. I'm hearing other people's negative impressions, and you can't have a bad impression without an implicit comparison to some other product that serves as the benchmark for quality.


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## Felon (Feb 27, 2008)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> After I read your comments I went back and checked IGN's coverage - and indeed, the gameplay and camera problems, while improved from the last E3, were still there at GDC, which were the same from a few months before when IGN went up to St. Catherines, Ont. to have a further look. Needless to say, there are still issues for a game that's been forever and a day in development; thus, your "blow away ME's gameplay" certainly raised my eyebrow, since all the reports so far say the exact opposite....



OK, seriously, what makes for "bad gameplay"? Can somebody throw some of these reports about Too Human my way? No point in having unjustified optiimism. 

From Arwyn's comments, I get the impression that he hasn't gotten ME yet. Have you? Again, making a comparison, I just don't see how ME's combat gameplay provides a real tough benchmark to beat.


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## Arnwyn (Feb 28, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> OK, seriously, what makes for "bad gameplay"?



*shrug* Ask the 'gaming media', not me. They're the ones reporting on it, since no one outside of the media has played it.



> Can somebody throw some of these reports about Too Human my way? No point in having unjustified optiimism.



Go to IGN (I had even mentioned them in my post above). Do you watch G4? They've talked about it on X-Play, too (along with videos). 



> From Arwyn's comments, I get the impression that he hasn't gotten ME yet. Have you? Again, making a comparison, I just don't see how ME's combat gameplay provides a real tough benchmark to beat



Your are incorrect. I own it.

But then again, "bad" and "mostly bad" aren't all that impressive, low benchmarks or otherwise. (And I've _never_ been a fan of any of Bioware's combat systems, from Baldur's Gate onwards. Bleh. But, in any case, the previews [and then reviews] for ME were very positive, while the previous for Too Human are decidedly not. Who knows how it'll really turn out? I foresee _yet even more_ development work on this one...)


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## trancejeremy (Mar 10, 2008)

So, the DLC is out. Anyone buy it yet? Is it worth the price?


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## Enforcer (Mar 11, 2008)

I bought the DLC, but haven't played it yet. Soon though. Right now my Adept is level 11 or so, and I just want to get a few more talent points before I start running around a brand new system.


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## John Crichton (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm not sure I want to pay $5 for this DLC...


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## drothgery (Mar 11, 2008)

Hmm... just got my 360 and _Mass Effect_ (and _Lost Odyssey_) yesterday. Looks good so far, but I barely got past character creation.


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## Grog (Mar 12, 2008)

Tycho at Penny Arcade talks about the DLC in today's newspost (he says he won't be buying it):

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2008/03/12


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## stonegod (Mar 12, 2008)

Grog said:
			
		

> Tycho at Penny Arcade talks about the DLC in today's newspost (he says he won't be buying it):
> 
> http://www.penny-arcade.com/2008/03/12



I agree that making the DLC work with non-completed games is a bit backwards, but I'll try it out regardless. I enjoyed the game, so I'm interested in what they'll do.


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## stonegod (Mar 12, 2008)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Hmm... just got my 360 and _Mass Effect_ (and _Lost Odyssey_) yesterday. Looks good so far, but I barely got past character creation.



Let me know how LO looks.


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## Enforcer (Mar 12, 2008)

I beat the DLC last night. It was fun. Took me about 90 min. or so. There's an option for lots of Paragon/Renegade points at the end of it, as well as some really nice loot. The Batarians look really cool. 

Worth the $5 to me, but any more expensive and I'd have felt let down. At least the end part has a different interior...


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## drothgery (Mar 12, 2008)

stonegod said:
			
		

> Let me know how LO looks.




First impression is that it's a very old-school RPG with very nice modern graphics. Which I like. But I'm very early in the game.


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## Felon (Mar 16, 2008)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> So, the DLC is out. Anyone buy it yet? Is it worth the price?



It's good. Yesterday I played it and went on to finish the entire game. Pretty fun experience.

The DLC offers appreciable rewards. As mentioned, there's a nice chunk of Paragon or Renegade points to get. You also get a decent material reward, but if you're late in the game it's nothing heads-and-tails above what you've already gotten your hands on. In terms of XP, it's pretty generous (blow up every gun turret). 

The quality of the content is pretty good. They do once again recycle the same building layouts (in particular, the 



Spoiler



big one-room warehouse where you typically just hunker down at the entrance and kill anything that comes at you


), but as advertised, the Batarrans are smarter about using distance and cover. I actually got some good use out of my sniper rifle, which is rare.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Mar 20, 2008)

My wife just bought Mass Effect for me.

I'm somewhat disappointed that there isn't a first-person camera view, as I find the third-person view a bit hard to use.  I'm splitting time with Oblivion, and I definitely prefer the 1st person view in that game.

Otherwise, it's entertaining enough so far.


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## Felon (Mar 20, 2008)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> My wife just bought Mass Effect for me.
> 
> I'm somewhat disappointed that there isn't a first-person camera view, as I find the third-person view a bit hard to use.



Well, if you hold down the left trigger, you get a pretty good approximation of first-person. But I know what you mean.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Mar 20, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> I actually got some good use out of my sniper rifle, which is rare.




I definitely wish there had been more opportunities to snipe.  But I still felt like I made good use out of it.  Especially considering I often used it in lieu of the Mako cannon.


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## Felon (Mar 21, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> I definitely wish there had been more opportunities to snipe.  But I still felt like I made good use out of it.  Especially considering I often used it in lieu of the Mako cannon.



Well, on my second playthrough, I note many situations where I wish I'd had a sniper rifle...but then I have to remember that it's not enough to have a sniper rifle. You also have to have lots of points invested in the Sniper Rifle talent and a couple of Kinetic Stabilizer upgrades before your crosshairs will actually stop swaying and drifting wildly.


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## trancejeremy (Mar 21, 2008)

I used the sniper rifle all the time on my first play through, once I had enough points in it.  The important mods to it (for me) were the heat reducing one, because otherwise you would overheat after taking 2 quick shots.

The key was really to make your other two idiots (er, squad members) stay back while you slowly creep ahead, because otherwise they just rush ahead and draw the enemy (and get in the way).

And usually once you were spotted, if the enemy used cover, a lot of times a little bit would stick out from cover if you were patient enough. Even if it's just the tip of a foot or tentacle, that would be enough to snipe them.


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## hong (Mar 26, 2008)

1. I would like to know the creative process that led to one of your NPCs being a member of a hot, all-female alien race with the ability to mate with anything. On second thoughts, I don't want to know. I WOULD like to see the facial expression on the voice actor as she's delivering Liara's lines, though.

2. Thresher maws are annoying.

3. So, I've landed on Coruscant Citadel and become a Jedi Spectre. Where's my bloody lightsaber katana?

4. Eyes are clearly the hardest part of the face to model.

All in all, it's a pretty awesome game. Just unlocked the Spectre gear, and I haven't done Virmire yet.


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## trancejeremy (Mar 26, 2008)

1) Probably just a way to save time, by having one romance for both sexes


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## Talislan (Mar 26, 2008)

So, question folks...

Most interesting role to take on?

Just finished the game and am highly disappointed. (sorry to the fans). I dearly wish to give it another shot, but I fairly walked through the game as an infiltrator and don't think walking through again with an uber Infiltrator just to see what maxing out the levels feels like will be much fun.

Any ideas as to how I could make a replay more bareable. I would like to be able to give this a second chance.

Thanks

T.


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## stonegod (Mar 26, 2008)

Talislan said:
			
		

> So, question folks...
> 
> Most interesting role to take on?



Without more detail on what you didn't find enjoyable, making recommendations are a shot in the dark. What was too easy? The combats? Didn't care for NPC interaction (paragon/renegade choices?) Side quests? Etc.


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## takyris (Mar 26, 2008)

Talislan said:
			
		

> So, question folks...
> 
> Most interesting role to take on?
> 
> ...




Sorry that you're disappointed enough to want to play again. I'd suggest Vanguard or Adept, if you want to see what the biotic abilities look like. If you want a challenge, avoid Singularity, as it is apparently the overpowered ability on the biotic side.

If Infiltrator was too easy for you, Soldier will likely be so as well. Sentinel is said to be difficult, but I found it fairly straightforward unless I was fighting things that ignored shields.


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## Enforcer (Mar 26, 2008)

Yeah, Singularity is really powerful, though some creatures are too big/powerful to be affected by it. For the average enemies, however, Singularity absolutely shuts them down.

Sentinel is alright. They have lots of shields and can shut down enemies fairly well.


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## Talislan (Mar 27, 2008)

Thanks for the replies folks.

Stonegod - you're right I should have given you better 'play preferrence' ideas. I think it was an overall feeling that the formula of the game was just too easy to overcome but in general all of the points you mentioned were too easy.

I guess my only real choice is to go with something within the biotic range and see how it goes. Hopefully taking away the ability to shut enemy weapons down will increase the combat challenge if nothing else.

Thanks again people.

T.


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## stonegod (Mar 27, 2008)

Talislan said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies folks.
> 
> Stonegod - you're right I should have given you better 'play preferrence' ideas. I think it was an overall feeling that the formula of the game was just too easy to overcome but in general all of the points you mentioned were too easy.



yeah, sounds like a biotic w/o singularity if you want a challenge. You'll also have to spend your support character's skills appropriately.


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## hong (Mar 28, 2008)

Ha ha, I just found the Hong system.


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## takyris (Mar 28, 2008)

You're welcome.


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## Felon (Mar 28, 2008)

So, what's the deal with shotguns? They overheat after a few shots. Seems like a major limitation. I'm playing a vanguard on my second playthrough (trying to score some more specialist achievements), and I've basically left my shotgun skill undeveloped in favor of pistol. 

The bonus skill was a tough choice. I have First Aid, Electronics, Decrytpion, Damping, and Sniper Rifles to choose from. I went with Electronics, because the shield boost it provides should be pretty nasty in combination with Barrier's protection.


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## Mallus (Mar 28, 2008)

Say, when's the PC version coming out and what are the requirements like? Inquiring new laptop owners who went PS3 rather than 360 want to know...


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## GoodKingJayIII (Mar 28, 2008)

Felon said:
			
		

> So, what's the deal with shotguns?




The deal with shotguns is that they are awesome.  

I have an adept with shotguns as his bonus skill.  I stack my weapon with a lot of damage and knockback, so if something doesn't die in one hit, it tends to go flying.  I think carnage is an excellent ability, especially coupled with singularity.


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## Enforcer (Mar 29, 2008)

Carnage is like having a rocket launcher. It's fun as hell.

That said, I still would pick Singularity as the bonus talent every time.


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## stonegod (Mar 29, 2008)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> That said, I still would pick Singularity as the bonus talent every time.



Singularity wins every time. Unless you can fly. Which makes you immune to black holes, apparently.


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## ThirdWizard (Mar 30, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> The deal with shotguns is that they are awesome.




I piled on the enhancement that does tons of damage at a huge overheat cost (+200% or +500% or something crazy like that), and my shotgun overheats in one shot, but the damage is ungodly!


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## hong (Mar 31, 2008)

Heavy armor makes my butt look fat.


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