# Interesting post over at Grognardia today regarding Gail Gygax



## joethelawyer (Dec 20, 2008)

GROGNARDIA: The Plot Thickens


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## justanobody (Dec 21, 2008)

Very interesting. I can't help but wonder if the "road map" is made of Dungeon Geomorphs all in blue, or one of his flow charts?


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## joethelawyer (Dec 21, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Very interesting. I can't help but wonder if the "road map" is made of Dungeon Geomorphs all in blue, or one of his flow charts?




I kept wondering if those 2 guys she kept thanking were the Blume Brothers in disguise...


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## Ranger REG (Dec 21, 2008)

It's just business.

Perhaps, the late great Gygax cut TLG too many slacks, or have gotten too personal with the company to overlook what they did to his _Castle Zagyg_ franchise. If it is in Gail and Gygax estate's interest to find better professionals to license the franchise, then so be it.

TLG should consider this as a wake-up call to improve their own business model, IMHO. It should also be a wake-up call for all RPG industry despite hard economic times.


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## darjr (Dec 21, 2008)

nevermind


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## S'mon (Dec 21, 2008)

As far as TLG goes, I find it a bit worrying that the most recent product of theirs I bought (StarSIEGE) looks less professional than the first I bought nearly 8 years ago (Lost City of Gaxmoor).


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## eyebeams (Dec 21, 2008)

Honestly, I suspect part of the issue is that Castle Greyhawk (and pseudonyms) and other projects might not be as coherently set down as people would like to hope. certainly, Gygax's private use of game systems was far more off the cuff than what he published, and it seems likely to me that his own game material was in that vein too.


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## La Bete (Dec 21, 2008)

Note - I'm not referring especially to this thread or the linked thread with regards to this:

I'm pretty disturbed by the attitude a lot of the fans have had to Gail since her husbands death. Frankly considering:

(a) How she has always seemed to be a decent person (I mean the ENWorld D&D game run by Gary - _on their wedding anniversary_!)
(b) It has been _less than a year _since her husband of many years passed away,

The accusations (explicit or otherwise) levelled at her following the removal of the Gygax Games IP from TLG has been unpleasant to witness.

As to why TLG lost the license? I don't think it's difficult to believe that the Trolls interesting release schedule had something to do with it....

What is (sort of) amusing, is that you would oftens see TLG fans defending the Trolls release schedule - normally on the basis of "when it's done, it's done" (CKG I'm looking at you). That approach now seems to have bitten them on the butt.


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## Mark (Dec 21, 2008)

Unless there is an IP ownership dispute, people should leave her to do as she will. It certainly appears that she is doing what most fans would want anyway, which is getting things on track to be released in a proper and timely manner.


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## Ourph (Dec 21, 2008)

I'm finding these critiques of Mrs. Gygax a little hard to take.  If Gary had wanted TLG to have exclusive rights to any of his IP he could easily have arranged that before his unfortunate passing.  Gail Gygax has been Gary's loving and devoted wife for a very long time.  For anyone to suggest that she has less right to decide what happens to Gary's possessions, including his gaming IP, than a bunch of guys he hung out with at conventions and published a few gaming books with is absolutely ludicrous.  And the idea that a bunch of nameless internet fans have a right to know what arrangements Gary made with his wife for the disposition of his estate after his death is even more ridiculous.


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 21, 2008)

Mark said:


> Unless there is an IP ownership dispute, people should leave her to do as she will. It certainly appears that she is doing what most fans would want anyway, which is getting things on track to be released in a proper and timely manner.




Eh? I don't believe that's what most fans want. They want it released under the system that Gygax claimed was a near perfect fit for his vision no? I'm pretty sure there's a direct quote of Gygax saying something of that nature and why he went with C&C as opposed to his own game system no?


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## Korgoth (Dec 21, 2008)

I'm taking a "wait-and-see" attitude on this one. Certainly Gail Gygax, in virtue of her standing as Gary's devoted wife and now bereaved widow, has earned a little slack. Few people could honestly claim to have been so devoted to Gary and facilitating Gary's pursuits.

On the other hand, I suppose I have become a bit cynical, especially over the past year. So if a simple answer is not forthcoming to a foundationally basic question like "What system is Castle Zagyg going to be released for" then I calculate about a 95% chance that the answer is going to be something miserable that totally POs the existing fans. Hopefully that's an unscientific and erroneous calculation. But my gut feeling is that if it were an answer I was going to like, I would have gotten that answer by now.

The worst case scenario is that Gygax Games releases CZ for LA in an ill-conceived attempt to circle the IP wagons, or for 4E under the tragically mistaken view that "Gary's slavish fans will buy it anyway, plus we'll score some of the new kids." Either way I think CZ would end up being a flop (I certainly wouldn't buy it, speaking purely for myself). I'd much rather it never be released than to have it mishandled... I'd rather always dream about how cool the Black Reservoir was than to see it and find it "meh".

Still, the fact remains that Gail Gygax absolutely has the right, and moreso than anybody else in this particular regard, to be considered "innocent until proven guilty", to borrow a somewhat inapposite phrase. Even those of us who are used to seeing Gary kicked around by practically everybody can rest assured, given her status and reputation, that Gail won't _deliberately_ mishandle Gary's literary legacy.*

* - For those who flame first and comprehend later, I'm speaking of the "literary legacy" as a separate issue from the IP. The matter of the IP is totally cut-and-dried: it belongs to Gail Gygax and she can do whatever she wants with it. Obviously the whole discussion makes no sense without drawing that distinction.


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## Deuce Traveler (Dec 21, 2008)

Right now it might be smart if Gail has them publish the other works using as much of a system-neutral approach as possible, such as was done with the most recent "Wilderlands of High Fantasy".  That way it is easily convertible, whatever your preference.  I have a feeling it might use a new version of the _Lejendary Adventures_ system.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 22, 2008)

Ourph said:


> I'm finding these critiques of Mrs. Gygax a little hard to take.  If Gary had wanted TLG to have exclusive rights to any of his IP he could easily have arranged that before his unfortunate passing.  Gail Gygax has been Gary's loving and devoted wife for a very long time.  For anyone to suggest that she has less right to decide what happens to Gary's possessions, including his gaming IP, than a bunch of guys he hung out with at conventions and published a few gaming books with is absolutely ludicrous.  And the idea that a bunch of nameless internet fans have a right to know what arrangements Gary made with his wife for the disposition of his estate after his death is even more ridiculous.



You mirror my thoughts on the matter.  I find the majority of the "discussion" borderline sickening.  I usually get annoyed with some fan's sense of entitlement to other's creative properties in general, but to even hint that Gygax's widow might somehow "fail" at managing her husband's intellectual property . . . "get a life" doesn't even begin to cover it . . .


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## Treebore (Dec 22, 2008)

Ranger REG said:


> It's just business.
> 
> Perhaps, the late great Gygax cut TLG too many slacks, or have gotten too personal with the company to overlook what they did to his _Castle Zagyg_ franchise. If it is in Gail and Gygax estate's interest to find better professionals to license the franchise, then so be it.
> 
> TLG should consider this as a wake-up call to improve their own business model, IMHO. It should also be a wake-up call for all RPG industry despite hard economic times.




I would agree with you if they were moving to better/more experienced people, but they aren't. All Mongoose does is final layout and print it, then put it into distribution. The two guys she has gone two are far less experienced than TLG.

So I am betting that they will be slower than TLG ever was.


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## JohnRTroy (Dec 22, 2008)

One thing people have to remember is this.  Gail met Gary in 1983.  Thus Gail saw all the dirty things that happened to Gary thanks to the hostile takeover.  The people calling her "Lorraine Williams 2.0" are really making the basest of insults.  Anybody who professes to care about Gary is really insulting him and his memory by making such statements.

In regards to that too, I think one of the things Gail is or will be doing is making sure the property is very protected before even beginning to work on design.  Think of it this way.  A lot of authors or authors estates have really be screwed over.  The Tolkien Estate has no control over who makes movies and games based on JRRT's work.  Winnie-the-Pooh is a horrible mess of rights and it seems the family doesn't have a lot of control anymore.  It only takes a single bad contract to ruin things.  And Gary was not the kind of guy to relinquish control or "give away" his stuff.

As far as a plan, it could even be as simple as "Gail, do what you think is right, regardless of anything I've said or any deal I've made".  He really loved Gail.



> The worst case scenario is that Gygax Games releases CZ for LA in an ill-conceived attempt to circle the IP wagons, or for 4E under the tragically mistaken view that "Gary's slavish fans will buy it anyway, plus we'll score some of the new kids." Either way I think CZ would end up being a flop (I certainly wouldn't buy it, speaking purely for myself). I'd much rather it never be released than to have it mishandled... I'd rather always dream about how cool the Black Reservoir was than to see it and find it "meh".




A few things...

1)  Fans should remember that Gary NEVER wrote for the fans.  He wrote for himself, hoping others would care.  If he was trying to do what the fans wanted him to do, I'm sure he would have taken a writing position with WoTC as soon as Peter Atkinson approached him--because many fans of Gary are just fans of Gary the D&D creator, not Gary's current works.

2)  Gary did endorse C&C.  However, if you did know Gary his true devotion was to properties he 100% controlled.  He "walked away" from stuff he didn't control.  Also, my experience with Gary's method was that he didn't write C&C stats, he just used his abbreviated format made famous in the G and D series--only stating exceptions, he used terms like "chain" and "stone" to avoid having to adopt the positive AC scheme.

3)  Gary did state that he felt C&C was the best fit for the castle.  However, it doesn't mean he was also opposed to using LA.  When talk started on CZ, I remember he corrected me when he was originally going to do a "dual stat" module--it was on a public list somewhere, perhaps Greytalk.  I think the only reason he was opposed was he found it difficult to simulate the class and level challenge system (A)D&D is based on.  But he was working on that for his own campaign.

So, why I think a Castle Zagyg for LA wouldn't sell as well as one for a C&C or old-school D&D system--it wouldn't be a "disrespect of Gary's Wishes" either.

And this all assumes CZ will be continued.

Finally, I do want to reiterate that I hope people realized that Gary cared more about his family and loved ones than his property or creations.  So, in this case, in this holiday season, I ask people to remember that.


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## Mark (Dec 22, 2008)

Mark said:


> (. . .) getting things on track to be released in a proper and timely manner.







JoeGKushner said:


> Eh? I don't believe that's what most fans want.





I guess there are two schools of thought and one of us will have to be disappointed.


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## RFisher (Dec 22, 2008)

eyebeams said:


> Honestly, I suspect part of the issue is that Castle Greyhawk (and psydonyms) and other projects might not be as coherently set down as people would like to hope. certainly, Gygax's private use of game systems was far more off the cuff than what he published, and it seems likely to me that his own game material was in that vein too.




Heck, that’s _exactly_ what I want. I was disappointed that Gary was making it “suitable for publication”. I’ve got plenty of that sort of stuff, and there’s plenty more to be had. I want to see the actual _practical_ notes of a master DM.


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Dec 22, 2008)

RFisher said:


> Heck, that’s _exactly_ what I want. I was disappointed that Gary was making it “suitable for publication”. I’ve got plenty of that sort of stuff, and there’s plenty more to be had. I want to see the actual _practical_ notes of a master DM.




I had never considered this, but I really find the idea appealing.


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## joethelawyer (Dec 22, 2008)

RFisher said:


> Heck, that’s _exactly_ what I want. I was disappointed that Gary was making it “suitable for publication”. I’ve got plenty of that sort of stuff, and there’s plenty more to be had. I want to see the actual _practical_ notes of a master DM.






FATDRAGONGAMES said:


> I had never considered this, but I really find the idea appealing.





me too.  i'd pay good money for photocopied published notes.  even if they contradict themselves.


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## eyebeams (Dec 22, 2008)

FATDRAGONGAMES said:


> I had never considered this, but I really find the idea appealing.




This would assume the notes are comprehensible to anyone or clearly marked for their purpose, and even then, if they end up composing a significant product. 

It's certainly a myth that he only wrote for himself; he said in discussions here that there were serious differences between what he created and what he made for himself.

I think a detailed Castle Greyhawk/Zagyg that's sitting around, waiting to be published is probably a myth. What seems more plausible to me is some reconstructed version of it, whose value as an insight into what it really was will largely depend on the process by which it was created.


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 22, 2008)

Mark said:


> I guess there are two schools of thought and one of us will have to be disappointed.




I assure you, it ain't gonna be me. I have no dog in this.  Bought C&C, read it, played it, put it back on the shelf. Bought the original hardcover to use in 3.5, read it, hopped back in my time machine and came back to the 2000's. It was a nice trip back to Hamlet style adventuring but it wasn't for me at the time.

Now if the new books aren't for some obscure game system I've never played and never intend to purchase, I'll take another look but the hardcover purchase put me off of buying the boxed set regardless of 'limited edition' value.

 I'm just noting an observation based on many 'fans' reaction to it not being done by Troll Lords, not being done by the people who've worked on it, and not being done in a timely fashion since it's going to take MORE time to get it to another system and let's face it, every day from now to when it comes out is just that, more time. 

Define you're "timeliness" and we'll see if it's you that's disappointed.


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## JohnRTroy (Dec 22, 2008)

By "writing for himself", I did not mean he was only writing stuff for his own campaign or didn't change things in products from his own campaign he made public, but rather he followed his own muse regardless of what the "vox populii" wanted him to do.  

In other words, why he would listen to fans, he did what he wanted to do, not necessarily what they wanted him to do.


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## grodog (Dec 22, 2008)

eyebeams said:


> This would assume the notes are comprehensible to anyone or clearly marked for their purpose, and even then, if they end up composing a significant product.




Based on the original levels that I've seen from Gary and Rob, they were certainly comprehensible.  In a few places there were issues with deciphering handwriting or cryptic symbols, etc., but by-and-large the level maps and keys were clear.  The level of detail present in a published module wasn't there---for example the Old Guard Kobolds weren't even labelled as such (in the version I'd seen)---just as kobolds.  So, any additional "old guard kobolds" flavor would be lacking from such a reproduction without having Gary or someone else who knew the material to expand upon it, even if only minimally.



eyebeams said:


> I think a detailed Castle Greyhawk/Zagyg that's sitting around, waiting to be published is probably a myth. What seems more plausible to me is some reconstructed version of it, whose value as an insight into what it really was will largely depend on the process by which it was created.




I've argued this before (and will point to references if need be):  the real Castle and it's dungeons exist---many people have seen the levels.  

John:  thanks for your information.  Do you know when Gail will be able to communicate in more detail than has been released thus far about the plans for continuing CZ/etc.?  Even a date for a date would help to keep the peace (so to speak)


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## Mark (Dec 22, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> (. . .) we'll see if it's you that's disappointed.





I suspect most fans would like the materials to see the light of day no matter the system so that they can then make of them what they want.  Very little has seen the light of day at all in the last decade, from TL or otherwise.  Anything coming out posthumously is a bonus that most fans would be happy to know is even possible.


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## JohnRTroy (Dec 22, 2008)

Grogdog that's up to Gail.  My statement here is not me speaking for her in any official capacity for Trigee.  I have no idea what will happen to Castle Zagyg.

I do suspect a lot of these things might take time to sort out, perhaps measured in months instead of weeks, so I think the fans of CZ will need to be patient.


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## Carnivorous_Bean (Dec 22, 2008)

Some of the reactions to this over there sound a bit like they're discussing the future of world peace, and not the publication of an RPG product. A few random thoughts on the subject:

1. Gail Gygax owns the material now, and can basically do whatever she wants with it, with or without fan approval.

2. As for the move being a "money grab" -- what's she supposed to do, starve for the sake of her 'art'?  She needs to eat, pay her mortgage, and keep up with her heating bills like the rest of us. If this new plan for publishing the stuff is profitable, and the original one wasn't, what the heck do people expect her to do? Sell her house to fund a losing plan just because it had the Holy Gary Gygax Seal of Approval? 

Gary, I'm afraid, was only human, and didn't have perfect foresight. Circumstances can change, and Gail's decision may well be an intelligent choice now where it might not have been a year ago. 

3. In any case, this whole thing has a smell of "mountains out of molehills" about it. I think even the most rabid fan should sit back and wait to see what happens.


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## grodog (Dec 22, 2008)

JohnRTroy said:


> Grogdog that's up to Gail.  My statement here is not me speaking for her in any official capacity for Trigee.  I have no idea what will happen to Castle Zagyg.




Completely understood.  



JohnRTroy said:


> I do suspect a lot of these things might take time to sort out, perhaps measured in months instead of weeks, so I think the fans of CZ will need to be patient.




True, but at least having a date for a date would help with knowing how long folks will need to be patient---it can only help, if providing such a thing is do-able at all at this point.


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 22, 2008)

Mark said:


> I suspect most fans would like the materials to see the light of day no matter the system so that they can then make of them what they want.  Very little has seen the light of day at all in the last decade, from TL or otherwise.  _Anything coming out posthumously is a bonus that most fans would be happy to know is even possible_.




Quite a different statement thought then,

 "Unless there is an IP ownership dispute, people should leave her to do as she will. (I totally agree with this part.)

"It certainly appears that she is doing what most fans would want anyway, _which is getting things on track to be released in a proper and timely manner_.

Possibilities versus proper and timely manner and all that.


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## med stud (Dec 22, 2008)

I think the article would be just in a bothersome tone otherwise, but in the context of a man recently passed away, I think it is self-entitled and rude crap.

The fans of the work of Gary Gygax doesn't have a right to experience his (now her) property, it's a pure privilige. Yet, this article and many posters on forums, behave as if they have a right to learn the Truth about what is going on with Castle Zygag. They are starting borderline insulting conspiracy theories of what is happening with the module, saying that "they will need proof before they believe that Gary had a plan" and stuff like that.

Gail Gygax doesn't have to give any proof of anything. No lights need to be shed on any of this. People should be grateful if someone goes out with information and no nerd rage is excused over this. The man is barely cold in his grave before the "fans" start acting up, second guessing his intentions and discrediting his widow.

Jesus Christ.


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 22, 2008)

med stud said:


> I think the article would be just in a bothersome tone otherwise, but in the context of a man recently passed away, I think it is self-entitled and rude crap.
> 
> The fans of the work of Gary Gygax doesn't have a right to experience his (now her) property, it's a pure privilige. Yet, this article and many posters on forums, behave as if they have a right to learn the Truth about what is going on with Castle Zygag. They are starting borderline insulting conspiracy theories of what is happening with the module, saying that "they will need proof before they believe that Gary had a plan" and stuff like that.
> 
> ...




And yet.... if she wants to sell to these fans of hubby's work.... 

Gygax's name is legend buti t's not infailible. If it was we'd all be playing Cyborg Commandos, reading the new adventurers of Gord the Rogue and busing out some fantasy via Dangerous Dimensions (aka Dangerous Journeys?)


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## The Little Raven (Dec 22, 2008)

> And yet.... if she wants to sell to these fans of hubby's work....




If they are going to treat a grieving widow like this less than a year after her husband's death because they think they know her husband better than she did, they don't deserve it. This article has the tone of a selfish, petulant child who deserves a smack in the mouth.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 22, 2008)

As I mention elsewhere, the real tragedy here is _not_ TLG losing the Gygax IP, Jeff T. losing a job title, or even the release of things like CZ being delayed indefinitely but, rather, Gail Gygax _losing her husband of many years_. IMO, anybody who doesn't understand this has some serious social failings and frightening entitlement issues.


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## RFisher (Dec 22, 2008)

eyebeams said:


> This would assume the notes are comprehensible to anyone or clearly marked for their purpose, and even then, if they end up composing a significant product.




<shrug> I managed to glean useful stuff from Gary’s DMG and Dave’s First Fantasy Campaign. How much worse could it be? ^_^

Although I’m really more interested in any insights into the process of being a DM from looking at the artifacts of that practice than about making sense of the content itself.


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## Treebore (Dec 22, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> As I mention elsewhere, the real tragedy here is _not_ TLG losing the Gygax IP, Jeff T. losing a job title, or even the release of things like CZ being dealyed indefinitely but, rather, Gail Gygax _losing her husband of many years_. IMO, anybody who doesn't understand this has some serious social failings and frightening entitlement issues.





I think we understand this, I know I do. I also understand that Castle Zagyg was finally coming out, being well done, and being profitable, and then they were pulled. Why? I deserve to know that. Why do I have to wait even longer? Will whatever they do next make my current CZ purchases less viable? Will they do new versions of what I have making it necessary for me to buy the new versions if I wish for completeness?

I have a very legitimate reason for wanting to know, grieving widow or not. She's "in the business" now, time to answer to her customers. She has made decisions, so she can explain them, let us know her general plans, let us know if we can support them or not. Keeping me in the dark just angers me and makes me less likely to support anything she does, and I know I am not alone in this. Far from it.

All she has to do is say, "I desire to have Mongoose publish our work under their Flaming Cobra imprint. I am doing this because Mongoose has proven to me to have better market distribution and therefore substantially higher sales than TLG is able to achieve. We own all releases of CZ so far, so they will be released via our Flaming Cobra imprint as hardbacks. (or, Since we don't own all the previously released material we will be doing our own versions for the sake of completeness under one license/imprint.) We hope to have our first Flaming Cobra release available for Gencon 09 (Or Christmas 09, or Summer 2010, whatever).

Thats all she has to do to satisfy me, at least. Grieving widow or not, if she wants to run a business, then she has to run it. Since I have invested over $100.00 into the CZ line I am most definitely owed an explanation. If I am not given one I feel no need to support any new endevours. I already own Gary Gygax's CAstle Zagyg. The original. The one he actually worked on. Anything Gail does is a pale imitation. An interpretation of his notes. She replaced the only person who knew exactly what Gary wanted done.

So if she wants to convince me she is doing Gary Gygax's Castle Zagyg I want to know what she is doing to ensure I am getting as close to the original as possible. Something I have a hard time believing can be done since she replaced the only person who worked closely with Gary on this project. Who heard all the verbal information that was never written down in notes. Who was fully indoctrinated on Gary's vision for this product.

I am interested in Gary Gygax's Castle Zagyg, not a second hand interpretation from his notes. So I want to know how Gail thinks they are going to do this with Gary and Jeff gone. As it looks now they may as well as have anyone write it and call it Castle Zagyg, but it sure isn't going to be Gary's. I would rather just buy a copy of Gary's notes and make my own interpretation. I'm certainly not interested in someone elses. At least with Jeff on the project I knew someone was doing it after having Gary's direct guidance for a few years. Now that is gone too.


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## Korgoth (Dec 22, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> As I mention elsewhere, the real tragedy here is _not_ TLG losing the Gygax IP, Jeff T. losing a job title, or even the release of things like CZ being dealyed indefinitely but, rather, Gail Gygax _losing her husband of many years_. IMO, anybody who doesn't understand this has some serious social failings and frightening entitlement issues.




Definitely true. I imagine that if Gail could trade Gary's legacy for 5 more minutes with the man, she'd do it in a heartbeat.

To a certain degree, I can understand the impatience of some of Gary's "followers" (though anyone who levels an insult at Gail ought to be run out of the Internet on a rail). For most of them, they only ever related to Gary through his work. So naturally his "magnum opus" looms large in their minds. Of course, the truth is that the published work, in whatever form (well- or mis- handled, raw or cleaned up, etc.) will almost surely not display the genius and flair that it displayed when wielded by Gary himself, since it won't be animated by his active talents, and any elaborations by people other than Gary will only muddy the waters. Still, I expect that when it does come out (if it does, but I assume it will) people will be conducting the archaeology of personal insight for a long time to come.

_Ars longa, vita brevis_ I guess.


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## The Little Raven (Dec 22, 2008)

Treebore said:


> She has made decisions, so she can explain them, let us know her general plans, let us know if we can support them or not. Keeping me in the dark just angers me and makes me less likely to support anything she does, and I know I am not alone in this. Far from it.




Unless you are a stockholder in her company, you are entitled to nothing in terms of information on business plans. Any entitlement you claim is false.



> Since I have invested over $100.00 into the CZ line I am most definitely owed an explanation.




Bull****. You paid $100 to get exactly what you paid for: the products you own. Purchasing a product in no way entitles you to know their future business plans, unless it happens to come with stocks in the company in question. This is exactly the kind of false entitlement that makes the internet difficult for business people to interact with.


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## Korgoth (Dec 22, 2008)

Treebore said:


> ...I deserve...  ...Why do I have to wait... make my current CZ purchases less viable... making it necessary for me to buy the new versions... I have a very legitimate reason for wanting to know, grieving widow or not.... Keeping me in the dark just angers me and makes me less likely to support anything she does... Thats all she has to do to satisfy me... Grieving widow or not... Since I have invested over $100.00 into the CZ line I am most definitely owed....Anything Gail does is a pale imitation...






*headdesk*

Um... no.

Gail doesn't "owe" you anything. You paid money for a physical product and you now have the product. There was no further contract.

Also, you shouldn't have written "Grieving widow or not". You should have stopped at "Grieving widow". Seriously, you need to cut the nice lady some flippin' slack, OK? Her beloved husband is dead. I understand that you want to know the details of CZ's future... so does everybody else who has any interest in it. I understand that you want it to come out in a form that you consider good rather than bad... again that's true of just about everybody. And I understand that you want Gary's work to be carried on in a way that he would have wanted. Anybody who cares about Gary wants that, too.

But there's no way you care more about Gary than his wife. She's still drying her eyes and you're throwing this impertinence at her? Not cool.

Proclaim your speculations if you like, but aspersions and demands ought to be left out of it.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 22, 2008)

Treebore said:


> I think we understand this, I know I do.




Your actions and words do not convey this understanding. 

You're absolutely right in stating that Gail Gygax is running a business — and running business means not divulging many of the details that you (and others) feel she should divulge _until the time is right for her to do so_. Negotiations are apparently still in progress, documentation is likely still being hammered out, there may even be attempts to dispute the will, etc. 

As somebody who has assisted in inventorying numerous estates for an attorney, I can bear witness to the fact that _these things take time_ (both due to legal and contractual stipulations, as well as family matters). For Gail Gygax to reveal the substance of these proceedings before they are concluded would be foolish, both legally and as a matter of business. 

The time is right when law and mediation resolution dicatates it is, not because a screaming legion of fans says that the time is right. What fans need to learn is that they aren't the be-all-end-all determinant in how businesses are run. That, and _patience_.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 22, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Righteous and spirtually-centered reason.




I tried to give you some XP for your contributions to this thread, but apparently I've given out too much XP today. At any rate, your thoughtful insight and commentary here is welcomed. The same goes for Mr. Troy.


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## Daniel D. Fox (Dec 22, 2008)

No matter how heartfelt your feelings on the matter, they could be expressed in a far less nasty fashion.


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## Treebore (Dec 22, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> *headdesk*
> 
> Um... no.
> 
> ...




You know, your right. I already got what I want. Anything done from now on by Gygax Games has nothing to do with what I want. So I'll just ignore whatever they do. I don't like LA, I think the system sucks, and I am not interested in a Castle Zagyg not written by Gary. So your right, my interest in CZ died with Gary. Thanks for helping me crystalize that realization of fact.


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## La Bete (Dec 22, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> *headdesk*
> 
> Um... no.
> 
> ...





TLR and Korgoth sitting in a tree..... Who would have thought we'd see the day? 

EDIT - Oh, and well said. Both of you.


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## WizarDru (Dec 22, 2008)

I have to admit, I find the tone of the article troubling.  There is a sense of entitlement that seems directly at odds with the situation.  The author claims that she didn't really know Gary Gygax, but then presumes to imply that she knows his mind at least as well as his wife of more than two decades.  The implication, reflected by some posters there and here, is that she has a duty to explain her actions when they don't meet a fan's particular expectations.  Beyond that, there is the inference that she is acting not only in an avaricious manner, but that she may be being untruthful or at least disrespectful to her deceased husband's memory.  (The idea that one would get rich marrying a game designer, even Gary Gygax, is kind of amusing, though, I'll admit).

Never mind that her husband hasn't even been dead a full year.  I've lost both my parents...and I recall how long it took to clear the books with all the credit card companies, federal agencies, banks, utilities, landlords and others.  It took a great deal of time and effort...and neither of my parents had creative IP or an active business to be dealt with.

I'm just not sure what to make of such sentiments.  I can understand disappointment at delays or changes, but there seems to be an element of a lack of respect that simply seems unpleasant.


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## Treebore (Dec 22, 2008)

Business is business. My customers didn't care that my wife had become bed ridden, they cared about the fact that we couldn't deliver what we promised in the time frame we promised. They were right. So we finished what we could, refunded what we couldn't, and closed our business.

Sentiment is nice, but business is still business. A good business is ALWAYS responsive to its customers.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 22, 2008)

I'm honestly sorry that you had needy, ungreatful, unreasonable customers — but choosing to become one of those customers because things didn't work out for you does not seem to be a very spiritual choice. Perhaps, instead, you could show Gail Gygax the respect and consideration that you wish your own customers had shown you?


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 22, 2008)

In terms of 'being owed'.... well, let's face it, if the fans feel that they're being left out in the cold, as apparently at least one whose already plunked down money does, they're NOT going to purchase future product. At that point, what's right and what's wrong in terms of behavior don't really matter.

In some ways it's like when a football player or movie star is caught doing something bad or something that the public disapproves of. Regardless of what is actually happening or what the final truth of that matter turns out to be, it can cripple a career. Hell, Governor Blago hasn't been brought to trial yet but to many, including myself, guilty.

Some can stand on the podium and go "ye be owed nothing" and if there were no future product coming out, not a single thing that the people in charge wanted the fans to purchase in the future, you'd be right.

But as we're talking about a person in a business, well, it remains to be seen what the actual effect of these news articles will be and what real effect they will have on future sales.

As I've noted elsewhere, I've got no dog in this but if people are thinking that some who've played the game for 30+ years and have waited that long for Gary's vision to come out and feel that's threatened now aren't going to feel threatened? They don't hold the same passion for the game for right or wrong reasons.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 22, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> They don't hold the same passion for the game for right or wrong reasons.




Or, perhaps, they are familiar with the concept of passion as something other than lashing out with misplaced rage.


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## Mark (Dec 22, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> Quite a different statement thought then,
> 
> "Unless there is an IP ownership dispute, people should leave her to do as she will. (I totally agree with this part.)
> 
> ...





It sure appears that she is "getting things on track" to do so.  Given her loss, and considering whatever happens it might be judged relative to previous attempts, I think the benefit of the doubt is in order for awhile.


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## JohnRTroy (Dec 22, 2008)

To be quite honest, I don't believe sales are a primary factor for Gail as much as respect for Gary's work.  I have no clue how much either of them made (and it's none of our business) it but my guess would be that Gail was the primary breadwinner of the family.  Really, even for a guy like Gary, the print gaming world is not very lucrative.  

Let's face it, while Gary wanted to make a profit he did what he wanted--most of his efforts before he agreed to do CZ were focused on his own creations.  As a fan of Gary the writer rather than Gary the D&D creator, I wouldn't care if Gail decided to just print-to-order Gary's unpublished LA stuff or other manuscripts that were 100% Gary.  (And like I've said in other threads, there's several things Gary wrote that are completed unlike CZ).

One other thing I should point out.  Where did this idea come from that Jeff T. is the "annointed one", the only one who can interpret Gary's vision for Castle Zagyg?  Granted, he did a great job and Gary was proud of him.  But, it seems like fans think he was passed an official rede and edict, with Gary saying "Jeff, you are the Rock upon which you will build the Castle of Zagyg".  It seems that fans are making that interpretation rather than anything Gary said.

If the procedure was like stuff done in the past for Trigee, which I do have knowledge of--Gary would have received manuscripts, reviewed, and edited that, then sent back.  So at minimum Trigee would have all those notes.  

And Gary trusted other people.  Those two people Gail mentioned, Spenser and Jon, worked a lot with Gary on LA.  If anybody knows Jon Creffield's track record, he worked with TLG before, on Hall of Many Panes, Slayers Guide, etc--and he's worked with Gary since the very late 1990s.  There are other authors Gary trusted besides Jeff---and not just Mentzer and his sons.  There's no "crown prince" heir to Gary's work or anything like that.

And to be perfectly frank, even if the contract with TLG wasn't canceled, and even if Jeff didn't leave the project--Gary is still dead.  I suspect the deeper you go into the dungeons the more "interpretive" it's gonna be, depending on how much Gary was able to flesh out his bible.  So no matter who does it, it will always be judged like that, much like the movie A.I. was judged because Steven Spielburg was trying to finish a Stanley Kubrik film.


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## Ranger REG (Dec 22, 2008)

grodog said:


> True, but at least having a date for a date would help with knowing how long folks will need to be patient---it can only help, if providing such a thing is do-able at all at this point.



Meh. When it comes to RPG products, I'd rather they do a thorough job even if it takes years, over getting a half-assed rushed job product just because one has to meet a deadline and actually worth no more than a dime than its current sticker price.

Regardless if the material existed, perhaps still in note forms, that's up to Gail to do with her husband's stuff, the stuff she inherited upon his death.


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## Treebore (Dec 22, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> I'm honestly sorry that you had needy, ungreatful, unreasonable customers — but choosing to become one of those customers because things didn't work out for you does not seem to be a very spiritual choice. Perhaps, instead, you could show Gail Gygax the respect and consideration that you wish your own customers had shown you?




No, I came to accept that business is business, and personal is personal, and learned that the two are separate. I also learned that if I wanted happy customers I had better be responsive. Leave them in the dark and they leave. 

Like I said above, I now realize what I want, and the fact I can't have it. Gary is no longer here to write for me, and I have finally come to accept that.

Now if Gail's company creates a product worth buying, I'll buy it. I won't be buying it because it has Gary's name on it. Gary is gone, and only he can create and write like he did. I don't want imitations, good or poor. So I have all I am going to have from Gary.

So Gails company will have to stand on their quality, Gary's name will have no impact on me any longer.


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## JohnRTroy (Dec 22, 2008)

Treebore said:


> I won't be buying it because it has Gary's name on it. Gary is gone, and only he can create and write like he did. I don't want imitations, good or poor.




Well, there are unpublished manuscripts that are 100% Gary.  I hope we can see The Key of Sand, Maladicted Plateau, and Well of Souls.  I hope Gygax Games can get Gary's chess variants book published as well.

In other words, don't assume everything published by Gygax Games is interpreted through a co-author.  Castle Zagyg, yes, that will be true.  But there's other stuff Gary had that just hasn't seen print yet.

I will gladly confirm whether or not future Gygax Games products are "pure Gary" based on my own knowledge, if anybody is skeptical.


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## SHARK (Dec 22, 2008)

Greetings!

Well, under the circumstances, Mrs. Gygax doesn't *need* to "run a business" or do much of anything--if she so chose. She has every right to grieve; every right to retire; every right to not do *anything* with Gary's IP's. 

Having said that--she seems to be moving in some direction to have Gary's IP's developed further. Who, or what company she selects for this task is also entirely up to her. When they produce anything, and what form it takes--is also in many ways entirely up to her. *SHE* is Gary's wife. *SHE* is the sole owner of everything that belongs to Gary Gygax. She will do what she feels is best.

As a customer, and fan of Gary Gygax of many years now--for myself, I am content. Gary gave us the gift of his imagination--which we have to this day as D&D, among other works. That is enough.

This game is not the most important thing in life. AT ALL. Mrs. Gygax has nearly 30 years of marriage with him, children to love, family to console, a home to look to--and many other things, all in addition to her own wrenching, agonizing soul and grief over the loss of her dear husband.

If Mrs. Gygax orders something produced of Gary's works, so that yet still another gift can be given to the public? 

Outstanding. I look forward to it greatly!

If Mrs. Gygax chose to do nothing, but retire and let Gary's legacy remain as it is--like a bright star shooting across the sky, to shimmer in the silence of Gary's passing...

That, too, is ok. I respect Gary Gygax and honour his contributions and memory, to accept that that would be enough.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Treebore (Dec 22, 2008)

JohnRTroy said:


> Well, there are unpublished manuscripts that are 100% Gary.  I hope we can see The Key of Sand, Maladicted Plateau, and Well of Souls.  I hope Gygax Games can get Gary's chess variants book published as well.
> 
> In other words, don't assume everything published by Gygax Games is interpreted through a co-author.  Castle Zagyg, yes, that will be true.  But there's other stuff Gary had that just hasn't seen print yet.
> 
> I will gladly confirm whether or not future Gygax Games products are "pure Gary" based on my own knowledge, if anybody is skeptical.





True. Unfortunately I am not  a fan of Gary's novels. I tried out the Gord series and found it lacking, so do not feel a need to try out any more of his novels. For me its all about the role playing games, the memories his works gave me and am sure they will continue to create for me.

Still, I only bought and tried LA because it had his name on it and a lot of his flavor, but I still think the LA system sucks, so despite having his name on it, and being written by him, I didn't buy any more, just like I did with Mythus.

So I was never a fan who bought it because his name on it, well I was, but I only kept buying more if I liked it. With Mythus, LA, and his Gord novels I felt no desire to buy more. With Castle Zagyg I did. With his World Builder series I did.

So for me Gygax Games will be just another RPG company. They won't have any favoritism shown to them by me because of Gary's name. I'll have to hear others say how good or bad their Castle Zagyg is before I will check it out. I will no longer buy it sight unseen. So if they do good work I'll buy it, but if not I won't. If Gary wrote it I would buy it sight unseen and decide for myself. Now if people say it is crap like they said about Yggsburgh I won't buy it for myself and find out for myself that they are wrong. Now I will take their word for it and not find out if I think they are wrong or right for myself.

That may not seem like much, but any small business owner who "knows" business realizes such a thing does make a difference in their sales.

At this point I do wish Gail would "retire" the whole business and leave it be. Its a fine legacy as is. If they continue to do good works in Gary's name, that will be better, but far from necessary.


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 22, 2008)

Mark said:


> It sure appears that she is "getting things on track" to do so.  Given her loss, and considering whatever happens it might be judged relative to previous attempts, I think the benefit of the doubt is in order for awhile.




And I'm not arguging that. However, that wasn't your initial statement. Timely and what not. What's your definition of "for a while." Six months? Nine months for Gen Con? Or are we just going with vague sweeping statements?


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## Mark (Dec 23, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> And I'm not arguging that. However, that wasn't your initial statement. Timely and what not. What's your definition of "for a while." Six months? Nine months for Gen Con? Or are we just going with vague sweeping statements?





I find putting pressure on a widow to be unseemly.  As someone without a dog in this, you ought to just knock it off.


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## The Little Raven (Dec 23, 2008)

Mark said:


> I find putting pressure on a widow to be unseemly.




This, a million times over. It took my grandmother almost five years to come to terms with the death of my grandfather.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 23, 2008)

Treebore said:


> No, I came to accept that business is business, and personal is personal, and learned that the two are separate. I also learned that if I wanted happy customers I had better be responsive. Leave them in the dark and they leave.




But. . . Gail Gygax isn't leaving anybody in the dark  She _is_ issuing updates and, while it's true that they aren't coming as fast or as frequently as you'd like, they _are_ coming. Given the circumstance and the legalities that are undoubted,y involved, this _should_ be understandable. 

That said, your association of "business" with an obligation to harm one's own company legally, fiscally, or both in order to placate unreasonable demands from unreasonable fans is misguided. No business has an _obligation_ to put the demands of rude, unreasonable, fans above their own well being. 

Granted, a business can _choose_ to do this, but there is no _obligation_ to do so, nor is it a _necessity_ of owning or operating a business. Indeed, the idea that satisfying unreasonable demands at the risk of legal liability is _required_ is the very definition of bad business.


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## Raven Crowking (Dec 23, 2008)

Although I never met Gary in person, I am glad to read several EN Worlders defending his widow.  Needless to say, I do not think that Ms. Gygax has any obligation toward any of us.


RC


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 23, 2008)

Mark said:


> I find putting pressure on a widow to be unseemly.  As someone without a dog in this, you ought to just knock it off.




You seemed to be speaking for "fans" and I was wondering what your specific window is. If it's ad infinitum and it comes out is one thing. Coming out quicker than it was is another. You ought to just edit your original post for clarity.


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## Mark (Dec 23, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> You seemed to be speaking for "fans" and I was wondering what your specific window is. If it's ad infinitum and it comes out is one thing. Coming out quicker than it was is another. You ought to just edit your original post for clarity.





You ought to quick while you're behind.


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 23, 2008)

Mark said:


> You ought to quick while you're behind.




Indeed. I wish I could quick when I was behind but alas, I don't know how.


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## Kishin (Dec 23, 2008)

Treebore said:


> I think we understand this, I know I do. I also understand that Castle Zagyg was finally coming out, being well done, and being profitable, and then they were pulled. Why? I deserve to know that. Why do I have to wait even longer? Will whatever they do next make my current CZ purchases less viable? Will they do new versions of what I have making it necessary for me to buy the new versions if I wish for completeness?
> 
> I have a very legitimate reason for wanting to know, grieving widow or not. She's "in the business" now, time to answer to her customers. She has made decisions, so she can explain them, let us know her general plans, let us know if we can support them or not. Keeping me in the dark just angers me and makes me less likely to support anything she does, and I know I am not alone in this. Far from it.
> 
> ...




This was a heavy blow to the respect I've developed for you over the years I've been reading ENWorld and the two I've been posting, Treebore. The above is not like you -at all- from what I've read in that time.

$100 is not 'an investment', and you're not a shareholder. There is no entitlement here.

You don't know what conversations occurred between Jeff and Gary, or the depth of 'unwritten information' that he was privy to, either. There's a lot of sweeping generalizations and some pretty antagonistic prose there.

As Mark and RC have pointed out, making demands of a widow is an incredibly presumptuous thing for anyone to do. Gary has a lot of devoted fans, this is true, but you have to remember that, folks, no matter what, you're _fans_, not friends or family. That was her _husband_. Gail spent a quarter century with the man. I am relatively sure she has a much greater claim on knowledge of his wishes and disposition of his legacy. She certainly doesn't have to answer to people who may have at most, met the man a handful of times at a convention or exchanged a few emails, when she lived a good portion of her life with him.


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## The Little Raven (Dec 23, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> Although I never met Gary in person, I am glad to read several EN Worlders defending his widow.




I've been a vocal critic of Gary's work and design philosophies, but I cannot stand people insulting or denigrating a newly-made widow because they want to have their way when it comes to his unpublished materials about pretending to be a pretty princess. Anyone who feels that their desire for material to be published by a particular company, written by a particular author, or created for a particular system justifies the way some vocal fans have been treating Gail don't deserve a single thing Gygax wrote. I'm sure the man himself would be disgusted with the way some of these self-appointed protectors of his legacy are behaving towards the woman he chose to spend the rest of his life with.


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## darjr (Dec 23, 2008)

To those defending, thank you. Many have done it far better than my original bitter screed.

This is a sad and ugly episode in RPG fandom.


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## Raven Crowking (Dec 23, 2008)

darjr said:


> To those defending, thank you. Many have done it far better than my original bitter screed.
> 
> This is a sad and ugly episode in RPG fandom.




Everyone has days where they say things that they later regret.  

I think that if it were Gary who had survived, and was trying to decide what direction to go in after his wife had died, there would be fewer harsh words.  Not because it is in any way different, but because we feel like we knew the man to some degree, and it is therefore easier to see the human element.

So, while we should support Ms. Gygax, I wouldn't be too hasty to villify those who don't see the personal side right now.  I urge you to consider the body of their posts, not just what you don't like in the here and now, because these are people I truly respect.


RC


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## JohnRTroy (Dec 23, 2008)

While the posts here don't bother me, what gets me a little upset is seeing certain fans praise Gary in their own on-line tributes, and then elsewhere call Gail a "money-grubber".  I've seen one person on a message board who did just that.

(I think the Grognardia piece was actually a more dispassionate analysis and I wasn't as offended as I am with some of the other arguments).

As far as money goes, well, I think Gary made no secret he was living on borrowed time.  Fans had to at least be aware of the risk that this could be an unfinished project.  

I knew Gary pretty well, being a friend for quite a long time.  Since all this Internet chatter has happened since the "pulling of the licenses", I'm feeling sad since I miss him and corresponded with him a lot, having recently stayed over his house last November for half a week--away from any "convention season".  

I can only imagine how Gail is taking it right now.

This was the second to last letter Gary wrote to me--I had asked him some questions about non-gaming stuff, and he wrote this back...it was on February 5th.



> Greetings JRT,
> 
> Am really in lousy shape.
> 
> ...




Read that third line again.  I know I'll never forget it...


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## Obryn (Dec 23, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> You seemed to be speaking for "fans" and I was wondering what your specific window is. If it's ad infinitum and it comes out is one thing. Coming out quicker than it was is another. You ought to just edit your original post for clarity.



So you're asking for a hard number, or perhaps a mathematical formula, on how long grief should last before you start badgering a relatively new widow after being married over 25 years?  Make a table, roll 1d20.

1-20: Stop being a jerk.

Or, you know, try to have some empathy.

-O


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## darjr (Dec 23, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> I urge you to consider the body of their posts, not just what you don't like in the here and now, because these are people I truly respect.




In part, this makes it worse than it would otherwise be. If it wasn't as you say, I could just shake my head and move on, ignoring it.


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## The Little Raven (Dec 23, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> So, while we should support Ms. Gygax, I wouldn't be too hasty to villify those who don't see the personal side right now.  I urge you to consider the body of their posts, not just what you don't like in the here and now, because these are people I truly respect.




If they can't see the personal side of a 25-year wife coping with how to deal with her husband's legacy less than a year after dealing with his death, then they don't earn my respect, but earn my pity for their lack of empathy.


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## Umbran (Dec 23, 2008)

Mark, JoeG, all of you.

Cut it out.  Really.  On this topic, in the holiday season?  Show some decorum and respect, for the subject matter, and each other.  

If you cannot be better than this... well, then you really aren't better than this.  True colors time, gentlemen.

And I hope I am not incorrect to use that term.  If I am - consider this your only warning.


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 23, 2008)

Obryn said:


> So you're asking for a hard number, or perhaps a mathematical formula, on how long grief should last before you start badgering a relatively new widow after being married over 25 years?  Make a table, roll 1d20.
> 
> 1-20: Stop being a jerk.
> 
> ...




I'm asking his opinion as to when he would expect a product to come out. This is based on HIM saying that it will be coming out sooner and thus being what the fans expect.


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## grodog (Dec 23, 2008)

Ranger REG said:


> Meh. When it comes to RPG products, I'd rather they do a thorough job even if it takes years, over getting a half-assed rushed job product just because one has to meet a deadline and actually worth no more than a dime than its current sticker price.




I agree completely:  I never said to rush any product vs. producing a quality product.  I was merely saying that whenever we're able to have a date for when we'll know more (a communication date for a date, not a product date for a date), that that info may help to calm some of the general discontent.  



Ranger REG said:


> Regardless if the material existed, perhaps still in note forms, that's up to Gail to do with her husband's stuff, the stuff she inherited upon his death.




That's a given, and from my interaction with Gail at and after Gary's funeral, I'd certainly say that she's got his best interests at heart, and has a heart-felt appreciation for Gary's fans that the limited communications from Gygax Games to date don't really convey.


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## JamesM (Dec 23, 2008)

JohnRTroy said:


> (I think the Grognardia piece was actually a more dispassionate analysis and I wasn't as offended as I am with some of the other arguments).



If anyone has interpreted my original post as being anything other than trying to piece together what we know about the situation and what it means, they've gravely misunderstood what I wrote. Indeed, if anything, the whole point of my piece was that Mrs Gygax did the right thing by addressing, even obliquely, to the rumors swirling about regarding the recent actions of Gygax Games. I think this speaks well of her and bodes well for the likely disposition of Gary's gaming legacy.


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## eyebeams (Dec 24, 2008)

You know, if I was a famous creator my plan for my work after death would probably involve compiling a few definitive works *and* helping my wife make lots of money.

WRT Castle Zagyg, I think it would be great to explicitly incorporate the experiences of people who went through it. I'd love to see quotations from play experiences in sidebars throughout, as well as asides about how such and such a thing was interpreted.


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## Ranger REG (Dec 24, 2008)

grodog said:


> I agree completely:  I never said to rush any product vs. producing a quality product.  I was merely saying that whenever we're able to have a date for when we'll know more (a communication date for a date, not a product date for a date), that that info may help to calm some of the general discontent.



Screw those who need to be calmed. Sometimes you can't give a date after looking at Gygax's notes and how to organize them. Let's give Gail and her crew some room to compile her husband's notes.

And for those above who need to be calmed but know they will die tomorrow, at least they can ask Gary IF they're worthy to meet him there.


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## Gentlegamer (Dec 24, 2008)

eyebeams said:


> WRT Castle Zagyg, I think it would be great to explicitly incorporate the experiences of people who went through it. I'd love to see quotations from play experiences in sidebars throughout, as well as asides about how such and such a thing was interpreted.



Yes, I would love to see it in an "annotated" format, with notes from Rob Kuntz, Ernie Gygax, Terry Kuntz, Skip Williams, and any others that played in Castle Zagyg


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## timbannock (Dec 24, 2008)

Gentlegamer said:


> Yes, I would love to see it in an "annotated" format, with notes from Rob Kuntz, Ernie Gygax, Terry Kuntz, Skip Williams, and any others that played in Castle Zagyg




I'd say that's the only thing I found "missing" from Upper Works.  I loved reading Gary's intro in each book and how he made changes and why.  But I wanted so much more of that.

Hearing the players tell the stories of their characters would be great, and might show some of the more specific changes between the various versions of the castle.  

If I run through the Upper Works and there's still no announcement on what's coming down the pipeline (or, if I don't like what's announced, which I doubt will be the case), I've already researched grodog's site and various forums to find any info I could.  Any chance I could find something similar in other works, I've noted it so that I can just transfer those things in as needed if my PCs delve deeper.

Example: the Black Reservoir = the submerged areas of World's Largest Dungeon (might as well get some use out of this monster of a book!!)

Gary always was saying "make it your own," and I think that CZ has endless possibilities.  But like you guys said, hearing the players' experiences of Gary's sessions would be fantastic.


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## JohnRTroy (Jun 9, 2009)

There was an update from Gail herself on the Gygax Games board




> Greetings Seekers,
> 
> I am reading your posts and working towards and end - my goal is to make sure Gary's intellectual property is safeguarded and protected. This takes time, more time than I anticipated - it's not that nothing is going on, I just can not disclose confidential information.
> 
> ...




Looking back on this thread, I wanted to thank most of the people at ENWorld for being a lot more understanding and respectful of Gail than many of the "die-hard" fans.  I think in the scheme of things Gary would be most appreciative of that over all other tributes to him.


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## jdrakeh (Jun 9, 2009)

JohnRTroy said:


> Looking back on this thread, I wanted to thank most of the people at ENWorld for being a lot more understanding and respectful of Gail than many of the "die-hard" fans.




Thank you for the update! I very nearly posted something at the Gygax Games forums the other day about how it seemed many "fans" were cheering for her to fail.  It's good to hear that Mrs. Gygax is still moving forward, despite that.


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## Piratecat (Jun 9, 2009)

Gail is great; I really enjoyed meeting her two years ago, and I'm sure she has Gary's best interests in mind. Thanks for the update.


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## joethelawyer (Jun 9, 2009)

JohnRTroy said:


> There was an update from Gail herself on the Gygax Games board
> 
> 
> 
> ...




thanks for the update----just one thing...


um, i am a lawyer.    seriously.  

i dunno anything about the kask guy though.


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