# Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?



## Slaved (Apr 16, 2008)

Do the Bonus Hit Dice granted by the Bardic Inspire Greatness Ability do anything related to Hit Dice other than their Effect on Spells that are Hit Dice Dependant?

Why use the term Hit Dice at all here? It is a very loaded term to go throwing around!


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## Mistwell (Apr 16, 2008)

I don't know.  The primary use is to assign additional hit points.  I don't know why they didn't want to just add 2d10 temporary hit points, aside from the fact that they wanted to add your Con modifier to the temporary hit points.

You raise an interesting question though.  Are the hit points gained by this ability actually "temporary hit points" in the sense that such a phrase is usually used in this game?

One could argue that Inspire Greatness grants extra temporary hit dice, not temporary hit points (at least, not directly): "A creature inspired with greatness *gains 2 bonus Hit Dice* (d10s), the *commensurate* number of temporary hit points (apply the target's Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice)".

"Commensurate" number of "temporary" hit points could be referencing back to the gained hit dice, not actual temporary hit points.  They are temporary in the sense that they come from the gained hit dice, and the gained hit dice are temporary because they only last as long as you are under the effect of Inspire Greatness.  But in this interpretation they are not actual "temporary hit points" as that term is usually used (because they come from hit dice, and are related to your Constitution score for example, like hit dice). 

Therefore, they would stack with actual "temporary hit points" as that term is normally used.  And, might they not be healable while you are still under the effects of Inspire Greatness, since the hit points are only commensurate with the hit dice, and you still have the extra hit dice?


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 16, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Therefore, they would stack with actual "temporary hit points" as that term is normally used.  And, might they not be healable while you are still under the effects of Inspire Greatness, since the hit points are only commensurate with the hit dice, and you still have the extra hit dice?




This is how I read it - the temporary is an adjective describing the hit points, rather than an actual instance of the game element 'temporary hit points'.

The hit dice could potentially provide extra benefit to characters with feats like Practised Spellcaster or Natural Bond (which have bonuses that cap at the character's hit dice), and apart from the fixed d10, I'd be inclined to treat them as racial hit dice - humanoid, for most PCs - for purposes of BAB, Saves, Feats, and ability score increases.

Moral of the story?  If you've got a 9th level bard in your party, figure out your +2HD stats in advance!

-Hyp.


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## Mistwell (Apr 17, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> This is how I read it - the temporary is an adjective describing the hit points, rather than an actual instance of the game element 'temporary hit points'.
> 
> The hit dice could potentially provide extra benefit to characters with feats like Practised Spellcaster or Natural Bond (which have bonuses that cap at the character's hit dice), and apart from the fixed d10, I'd be inclined to treat them as racial hit dice - humanoid, for most PCs - for purposes of BAB, Saves, Feats, and ability score increases.
> 
> ...




Wait, are you saying that you can gain a leveled feat while under the effect of Inspire Greatness? That you would gain new skill ranks? That you would gain BAB? Better Saves? Ability score increases?

Wow, that would be a HUGE boost.  Enough to convince me to not only take Song of the Heart (+1 HD) but also Words of Creation (+2 more).  

I dunno Hyp, that seems like a like of bonuses from just 2HD.


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## Nifft (Apr 17, 2008)

I'm with Mistwell on this one. IMHO the full benefit of the bonus hit dice is explained in the Inspire Greatness description: 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.



 The BAB increase, bonus to Fortitude save, and the hit points are all the bonus Hit Dice grant, aside from being treated as though you had an extra +2 hit dice.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 17, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I dunno Hyp, that seems like a like of bonuses from just 2HD.




When you cast Awaken and the animal gains +2 HD, do you increase his BAB and saves, check for extra feats, etc?

I do.  He's gained two hit dice, and those things are a function of hit dice.

Inspire Greatness states that the subject gains 2 HD.

-Hyp.


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## Nifft (Apr 17, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> When you cast Awaken and the animal gains +2 HD, do you increase his BAB and saves, check for extra feats, etc?
> 
> I do.  He's gained two hit dice, and those things are a function of hit dice.
> 
> Inspire Greatness states that the subject gains 2 HD.



 Not quite.

_Awaken_ states: 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD.



 ... which is significantly different from the text of Inspire Greatness.

IMHO, the specific, enumerated benefits from Inspire Greatness's bonus HD are the only benefits of those HD.

Cheers, -- N


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## Slaved (Apr 17, 2008)

System Resource Document said:
			
		

> An awakened animal gets +2 HD





			
				System Resource Document said:
			
		

> A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice




These are significantly different?


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 17, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> IMHO, the specific, enumerated benefits from Inspire Greatness's bonus HD are the only benefits of those HD.




So no benefit for resisting an Intimidate attempt (1d20 + hit dice + Wis bonus + vs fear bonus)?  Determining effect of a Dragon's Frightful Presence on an Inspired character?  A Ghaele's Gaze?  A Lich's Fear Aura?

-Hyp.


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## Mistwell (Apr 17, 2008)

I am not saying Hyp is wrong.  I'm saying my balance senses are tingling.  That it might be overpowered, though correct according to the RAW.

I know...it's a bard, so they have plenty of room to grow power-wise before they are overpowered.  Still, with all the new feats and items and such, +2 to +5 HD means a pretty big boost!


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## Slaved (Apr 17, 2008)

I think that using Words of Creation on Bardic Music Effects leads to Big Problems!


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## Mistwell (Apr 17, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I think that using Words of Creation on Bardic Music Effects leads to Big Problems!




Fair enough.  But even just Song of the Heart adds a +1HD.


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## Mistwell (Apr 17, 2008)

From the SRD:

Increasing Hit Dice

As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type.

Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. 

 A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

    * 8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class.
    * Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
    * Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies).
    * Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class.


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## Nifft (Apr 17, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> So no benefit for resisting an Intimidate attempt (1d20 + hit dice + Wis bonus + vs fear bonus)?  Determining effect of a Dragon's Frightful Presence on an Inspired character?  A Ghaele's Gaze?  A Lich's Fear Aura?



 Are those spells? 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.



 Looks like you're correct, no benefit whatsoever.

Of course, Bardic Music has a different mechanism for countering Fear effects.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 17, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Are those spells?  Looks like you're correct, no benefit whatsoever.




I don't agree - you've gained two bonus hit dice, and those things check the total of your hit dice.

If I have 4 hit dice, and I gain two bonus hit dice, I don't have fewer than 5 hit dice any more!

-Hyp.


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## Nifft (Apr 17, 2008)

The trouble is, the bonus hit dice do not say that they function as regular hit dice (except as noted), they simply say that they function as noted.

It may be an editing error that the bonus hit dice are only specified to count as hit dice for the purpose of spells that check hit dice ... but them's the rules.

Cheers, -- N


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## moritheil (Apr 17, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I am not saying Hyp is wrong.  I'm saying my balance senses are tingling.  That it might be overpowered, though correct according to the RAW.
> 
> I know...it's a bard, so they have plenty of room to grow power-wise before they are overpowered.  Still, with all the new feats and items and such, +2 to +5 HD means a pretty big boost!





They say that if you watch long enough, you'll see all sorts of things.  I have finally seen someone argue that a bard song is potentially overpowered.   



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> I think that using Words of Creation on Bardic Music Effects leads to Big Problems!




Is this sarcasm, or reference to a known exploit?


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## Mistwell (Apr 17, 2008)

moritheil said:
			
		

> They say that if you watch long enough, you'll see all sorts of things.  I have finally seen someone argue that a bard song is potentially overpowered.
> 
> Is this sarcasm, or reference to a known exploit?





No he is right, it's not sarcasm.

It depends on how you interpret Words of Creation.

See the Inspire Courage Optimization thread for details.

For example, assume at 10th Level Bard (hardly known for being overpowered):
Feats: Words of Creation, Song of the Heart
Spell: Inspirational Boost (1st level spell, Swift Action, +1 to Inspire Courage);
Items: Vest of Legends (+5 to bard level for Bardic Music purposes); Badge of Valor (+1 Inspire Courage, Immediate Action, 3xday); Battle Rattle instrument (+1 Inspire Courage); Horn of Resilience (+50hp to those already under effect of Inspire Greatness); Masterwork Harp (target one additional creature with Inspire Greatness). 

This is all easily doable for said bard with plenty of gold left over for regular armor, weapon, and equipment, plenty of feats left over for character development, plenty of spells left over, etc..

Inspire Courage: Base +2/+2, Vest +3/+3, Song of the Heart Feat +4/+4, Rattle Instrument +5/+5, Swift Action Spell +6/+6, Immediate Action Badge +7/+7, Words of Creation Feat +9/+9 to +14/+14 (or something in between) depending on how you read the feat's bonus.  But minimum +9/+9 to the entire party, for all attacks they make, for the entire battle.

Inspire Greatness: Base # Targets: 1, Vest 3, Harp 4; Benefit: Base 2HD (d10s) +2 attacks (stacks with Inspire Courage b/c different type) +1 Fort, Song of the Heart Feat 3HD (d10s) +3 attack +2 Fort, Words of Creation Feat 5HD (d10s) +5 attack, +3 Fort (or more depending on how you read the Words of Creation feat), +50 hp more with Horn.  So that is for probably the entire party (4 people), along with Inspire Courage they are all at +14 attack (at least), +9 damage, +3 Fort (and +9 vs. Charm and Fear), +5HD (d10s) with apparently (according to Hyp) all the benefits that +5HD contributes (increased stat bonus, a feat or two, increased saves, increased base attack bonus which also stacks with the attack bonuses mentioned here), and 5d10+Con+50 hit points.

And all of that, and you still have all the other benefits of a bard.  You still have lots of skills, and you can cast Haste plenty of times a day on the party, and Dispel Magic at full 10 caster levels, and Dimension Door, and Displacement, and nifty party-boost spells like Elation from BoED, and turn folks invisible, and cast silence on opponent spell-casters as a readied action, and Use Magic Device and Tumble as class skills, and fascinate and command with music an infinite number of times, and boost someone else's skill checks with music, and do nasty things to opponents with other feats like Haunting Melody, and wear up to Mithril Full Plate with the Battle Caster feat, and add charisma to attack and damage again with a Bow of Songs, and add half bard level to damage with a weapon like Crystal Echoblade, and do all sorts of crazy stuff with the Snowflake Wardance feat, etc..

So yeah, a bard can (now, as 3.5 comes to an end) get to the point where they are at least as competitive as any other class, which will result in some folks calling them broken.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 17, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> The trouble is, the bonus hit dice do not say that they function as regular hit dice (except as noted), they simply say that they function as noted.
> 
> It may be an editing error that the bonus hit dice are only specified to count as hit dice for the purpose of spells that check hit dice ... but them's the rules.




I think we're looking at the same text and getting different results.

If I say "Here's a bonus apple.  It's red, like a regular apple."... do we assume that it is not round?

The way that I'm reading it, the creature gains 2 bonus hit dice (stated), and they count as regular hit dice for the purpose of spells whose effects depend on hit dice (stated).  Because they are hit dice, I know other things about them unless contradicted... and the text doesn't contradict anything except to specify they are d10s.

You're saying that despite the fact that hit dice are defined, all the features of hit dice must be restated in the ability text or they cease to be true.

I'm saying that by calling them hit dice, they function as hit dice except where the ability text says they don't.

If the bonus apple I handed you is red, double-deckered, inedible, and carries Japanese tourists around Buckingham Palace, then there wasn't really any point in calling it an apple... the only relationship to an apple is that it's red.  There are a whole lot of things about apples that can be assumed... but not in this case, because despite calling it an apple, I only did so to explain the colour.  Calling it an apple is, in fact, not merely confusing but incorrect.

-Hyp.


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## brehobit (Apr 17, 2008)

I personally read it to only give the bonuses stated.  So you have the HD, but not saving throw bonuses or BAB bonuses (which ones would you get?)  I would give bonuses for things that are HD based, like immune to sleep or for practiced spell caster.  Maybe for Vow of Poverty (that I'd likely house rule, I'd have to think about it)

I was just looking at this yesterday.  It seems like one of those bonuses that's either darn helpful or sucks depending on the character.  VoP would really like this....

Mark


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## Stalker0 (Apr 17, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> You're saying that despite the fact that hit dice are defined, all the features of hit dice must be restated in the ability text or they cease to be true.




No, what he's saying is the text doesn't say you gain +2 HD, it says you gain +2 HD for the purpose of the following effects.

If I say, "This is an apple for the purpose of looks" then you would expect the object I show you to look like an apple. But if you bite into it and find out it tastes like plastic, well that's your own fault


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## Mistwell (Apr 17, 2008)

brehobit said:
			
		

> I personally read it to only give the bonuses stated.  So you have the HD, but not saving throw bonuses or BAB bonuses (which ones would you get?)  I would give bonuses for things that are HD based, like immune to sleep or for practiced spell caster.  Maybe for Vow of Poverty (that I'd likely house rule, I'd have to think about it)
> 
> I was just looking at this yesterday.  It seems like one of those bonuses that's either darn helpful or sucks depending on the character.  VoP would really like this....
> 
> Mark




Well, the base ability is just an extra 11 HP on average, plus 2xConBonus.  But when you add in all those things that help Inspire Greatness (which, lets face it, is what you do with most characters - focus your feats and items on what the do, so they can do it better) it's pretty good. 

With the above example, four people are getting and average of 77.5 hit points plus Con bonus (so a 12 Con = extra 5 HP, and an 18 = extra 20 hp, etc..).  So your front line tank is likely ending up with an extra 100 hit points or so to work with over the course of the battle, in addition to +5 attack that stacks with Inspire Courage.

That doesn't suck, even without Hyps' added stuff that come with HD.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 17, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> No, what he's saying is the text doesn't say you gain +2 HD, it says you gain +2 HD for the purpose of the following effects.




But that's not what it says.  It says you gain 2 bonus hit dice, and in a later sentence tells you that they count as regular hit dice with respect to spells.  Nowhere does it say that they differ from the standard definition of hit dice in any respect except the d10.

-Hyp.


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## Mistwell (Apr 17, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> No, what he's saying is the text doesn't say you gain +2 HD, it says you gain +2 HD for the purpose of the following effects.




If it said for the purpose of the following effects, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  It doesn't say that.  It says: "A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s),"

And the SRD says: "As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type."

It's a fair question.  Do you get those things? Maybe.  It would be a pain in the butt though.  You would need to tell all the players to create a +2HD (or up to +5HD depending on the bard in question) version of their characters.  And every time they level they need to essentially level twice.


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## Nifft (Apr 18, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I think we're looking at the same text and getting different results.



 Well, yes.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> If I say "Here's a bonus apple.  It's red, like a regular apple."... do we assume that it is not round?



 The wording isn't like that, though. The very first explicit element listed is an exception -- to use your analogy, if I say, "Here's a bonus apple. It's *blue*." ... and then list three features of a regular apple, do we assume a fourth, fifth, and sixth?



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.




Basically, there are three possibilities: 
A/ the features listed by the text are the full extent of what the bonus HD grant; or 
B/ the features listed are explanatory, and mere examples of what the bonus HD grant; or
C/ the features listed are extensions, and are in addition to what the bonus HD grant.

We can rule out C, because both the first feature ("d10s") and the last feature ("... count as regular HD") specifically modify the hit dice. So it's either a case of truly terrible editing, or all the elements in between are also intended to apply to the bonus HD.

B can be ruled out due to the first two clauses: that the bonus HD grant d10s (which are not the hit die type for most classes, nor are they the hit die type for humanoids); but more damningly by the second clause, that the hit points provided by these bonus HD are described as temporary. Hit dice do not grant temporary hit points, they grant regular hit points. Let's look at that passage more carefully: 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice)



 The parenthetical makes it clear that the "temporary" modifier applies to the HP provided by the bonus HD -- that is, it explicitly precludes the possibility that the temporary HP are a separate effect from the bonus HD. (We'd determined that already, but confirmation is always nice.)

Thus, by elimination, the only rational explanation left is A.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 18, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> B can be ruled out due to the first two clauses: that the bonus HD grant d10s (which are not the hit die type for most classes, nor are they the hit die type for humanoids); but more damningly by the second clause, that the hit points provided by these bonus HD are described as temporary. Hit dice do not grant temporary hit points, they grant regular hit points. Let's look at that passage more carefully: The parenthetical makes it clear that the "temporary" modifier applies to the HP provided by the bonus HD -- that is, it explicitly precludes the possibility that the temporary HP are a separate effect from the bonus HD. (We'd determined that already, but confirmation is always nice.)




The "temporary hit points" issue was brought up earlier in the thread.  I'm personally of the opinion that these are "temporary [hit points]" - that is, regular hit points that will expire with the effect's duration - rather than "[temporary hit points]".

If someone has 30 hit points, and gains 10 [temporary hit points], and takes 5 damage, they're still on 30/30 hit points with 5 temporary hit points, and a Cure spell will do nothing for them.  

If someone has 30 hit points, and gains 2 bonus hit dice which temporarily add 10 hit points, and takes 5 damage, they're on 35/40 hit points, and a Cure spell can cure some of that damage.

If Inspire Greatness were adding [temporary hit points], they wouldn't use the hit dice mechanic to do it; to me, it seems that because the hit dice are ephemeral in nature, the hit points they grant are temporary, but not actually [temporary hit points], and it's an unfortunate coincidence of word order that means that impression might be given.

(An orc who butchers babies might be a monstrous Humanoid, but he's not a Monstrous Humanoid...)

-Hyp.


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## Nifft (Apr 18, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> The "temporary hit points" issue was brought up earlier in the thread.  I'm personally of the opinion that these are "temporary [hit points]" - that is, regular hit points that will expire with the effect's duration - rather than "[temporary hit points]".



 My friend, you are reaching. "Temporary hit points" is a term of art in D&D. The writers could easily mess up the description of a unique effect (like Inspire Greatness), but something as common as the phrase "temporary hit points" is just not up for grabs. When they use the words "temporary hit points", they mean temporary hit points.

There are many ways to phrase the effect that you are discussing. For example, "your maximum hit points temporarily increase by XXX". 

It's far more likely that the bonus hit dice are exactly as special as the temporary hit points which they grant -- and are thus not actual Hit Dice, just as temporary hit points are not actual hit points.

Cheers, -- N


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## Artoomis (Apr 18, 2008)

We play it as "temporary additional hit die" - no extra feats or stat boosts as those are tied to levels, not hit dice, for PCs.

Anything that ties directly to your number of hit die improves, but not things tied to levels.

The main thing is that we play you can heal any damage you take off of those extra hit points because they come from extra (albeit temporaray) hit die.

The number of hit die one has usually has little effect on a PC except for hit points - most things are tied to level, except for some spell effects that are tied to hit die, and those would go by the temporary increase.

Of course some spells do have effects based upon Hit Dice, and we know that these count for that, at least.


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## Mistwell (Apr 18, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> My friend, you are reaching. "Temporary hit points" is a term of art in D&D. The writers could easily mess up the description of a unique effect (like Inspire Greatness), but something as common as the phrase "temporary hit points" is just not up for grabs. When they use the words "temporary hit points", they mean temporary hit points.
> 
> There are many ways to phrase the effect that you are discussing. For example, "your maximum hit points temporarily increase by XXX".
> 
> ...




I disagree.  I came to the same conclusion about the use of the word "temporary" in that rule, and independent of Hyp.  

Your best case scenario is an unusual form of temporary hit points, since these temporary hit points are modified by your Con score, which never happens for any other temporary hit points, and adds a new element to them (what happens if your Con changes while you have those temporary hit points).  I see two rationale interpretations there for sure, and I think denying that the other interpretation is at least rationale is a stretch.


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## akbearfoot (Apr 19, 2008)

The book explains how a creature improves when it gains hit dice....but does the book explain what happens to a creature with it gains -bonus hit dice-?  I don't think it does....In which case the recipient of -bonus hit dice- gain the exact benefits listed in the description of whatever ability that granted them.

I think it is obvious that the ability was not intended to grant extra BAB or save bonuses or feats.  That would be unmistabeably broken.  If that was the intent, there wouldn't be a need for the bit about them counting for the purposes of spells.  They call out exactly how they are similar to normal hit dice, and anything should be ignored.


I'm also not sold on the idea that song of the heart increases the actual # of bonus HD...rather the total hitpoints....It's already a very strong feat if it only worked on inspire courage.  How many other feats effectively say 'your allies all gain +1 to hit and damage'


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## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

Interestingly when Advancing a Humanoid it takes 4 Hit Dice in order to increase the Challenge Rating by 1.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 19, 2008)

akbearfoot said:
			
		

> I'm also not sold on the idea that song of the heart increases the actual # of bonus HD...rather the total hitpoints....




Read the feat again.  It states what happens when used with Inspire Greatness - and specifically says "3 bonus hit dice".

-Hyp.


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## Mistwell (Apr 19, 2008)

akbearfoot said:
			
		

> I'm also not sold on the idea that song of the heart increases the actual # of bonus HD...rather the total hitpoints....It's already a very strong feat if it only worked on inspire courage.  How many other feats effectively say 'your allies all gain +1 to hit and damage'




Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting, pg. 60).
Pre-Req: Bardic Music Class Feature, Inspire Competence ability, Perform 6 ranks.
Benefit: When you use inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics, any bonus granted by your music increases by +1. Thus, a 15th-level bard with this feat grants his allies a +4 bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws against fear when he uses inspire courage, rather than the +3 he would normally grant. *If he uses inspire greatness, the same bard grants up to three allies 3 bonus Hit Dice, a +3 bonus on attack rolls, and a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves*.
Also, when you use fascinate, suggestion, or mass suggestion, the saving throw DC increases by 1.
If you have the Haunting Melody feat, the saving throw C for that effect also increases by 1. If you have the Music of Growth feat, the bonus bestowed by that feat increases to +6. If you have the Music of Making feat, the bonus on Craft checks bestowed by that feat increases to +6. If you have the Soothe the Beast feat, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your Perform check to improve the attitude of an animal or magical beast.


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

akbearfoot said:
			
		

> ...I think it is obvious that the ability was not intended to grant extra BAB or save bonuses or feats.  ...'





Well, of course not.  All three of those things are based on level, not hit dice.


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## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Well, of course not.  All three of those things are based on level, not hit dice.




While they all do come with gaining Class Levels the Character also gains Hit Dice along with those Class Levels. Why do you believe that they are separate? The Advancing Creatures section of the System Resource Document is clear about what Hit Dice grant to Creatures and it includes Base Attack Bonus, Saving Throw Bonuses, and Bonus Feats.


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> While they all do come with gaining Class Levels the Character also gains Hit Dice along with those Class Levels. Why do you believe that they are separate? The Advancing Creatures section of the System Resource Document is clear about what Hit Dice grant to Creatures and it includes Base Attack Bonus, Saving Throw Bonuses, and Bonus Feats.




That's for monsters, not PCs.

PCs are strictly level-based.  It's quite possible for a PC to have Hit Dice that do not match levels, as can easily be seen from characters that have a "level adjustment." 

It's not even possible to decide, for example, what Saving Throw bonuses might apply as you must know which level advancement chart to use (for PCs). 

These "Bonus Hit Dice" are an odd thing - they are not tied to race or class in any way, thus no race or class benefits will accrue.  Thus, you'll get CON bonuses and anything ties to Hit Dice, but not benefits tied to level advancement.

For many reasons, I do not see how any other approach is either workable or complies with the Inspire Greatness description.

In truth, I am not sure that there are any benefits to PCs from Bonus Hit Dice (as opposed to Levels) other than hit points and certain spell effects.


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## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

Why are Hit Dice based Bonuses only for Non-Player Characters? Where does it say that in the Rules?


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Why are Hit Dice based Bonuses only for Non-Player Characters? Where does it say that in the Rules?




You need to be cautious about using the SRD for this sort of information - the full rules for level advancement are only in the PHB.

The rules for "creature advancement " are in the Monster Manual and don't apply to PCs, for PCs have there own rules for advancement.


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## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

I see nothing to support your conclusion.


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Also, 

Even in the SRD the line "As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type." is in the "Improving Monsters" section, which clearly does not apply to PCs.  (See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)

How about that for supporting my conclusion?  Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

I anxiously await any response that might counter my conclusion....


----------



## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

The Players Handbook does _mostly_ assume that Levels and Hit Dice are the same because it is the First Book that Players are exposed to. Other books can modify or add to what is said in the Players Handbook. The additional information about Hit Dice in the other two Core Books do not contradict the Players Handbook.

Elves are in the Monstrous Manual I but they can be Player Characters.

Awakened Animals are possible just using the Players Handbook and they can be Player Characters.

The Awaken Spell also does not specifically define the Hit Dice that are given. Do you ignore them completely?


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Double Post


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> ...Other books can modify or add to what is said in the Players Handbook. The additional information about Hit Dice in the other two Core Books do not contradict the Players Handbook....




Actually, the Monster Manual sets out rules for advancing that clearly do not apply to PCs; the opening of that section (in the SRD) states...

"Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster..."

Note the word "monster" throughout, as oppose to PC, or "Player Character" or even the more generic "character".

Also,. there are special rules for playing monsters as PCs, but that's not really what is at issue here.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> The Players Handbook does mostly assume that Levels and Hit Dice are the same ...




The PHB does *not* assume levels and hit die are the same, it does, however, specify what hit die you gain per level and what other leveling benefits you get.  A PC does not get benefits per hit die (other than hit points and some spell effects that depend upon hit dice), but [d]_do[/b]_ get them per level.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> ...The Awaken Spell also does not specifically define the Hit Dice that are given. Do you ignore them completely?




Of course not,  The awakened animal gains hit die per the monster manual, as they are monsters of the "magical beast" type.  This is all well-defined and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  They will get d10 hit die and attack advancement as a fighter, as well as a "good" Fort and Ref save; all well-defined and not applicable to PCs, who advance by level, not hit die.

PCs are not monsters, and "monster" rules do not apply to PCs unless they are generic rules - but rules that specifically apply to monsters (as opposed to PCs) are not PC rules.

These advancement rules we are discussing are a special set of rules that specify how monsters advance as opposed to how PCs advance.

So far I fail to see anything even *remotely* convincing that the monster advancement rules would apply, in any way, to PCs.


----------



## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Actually, the Monster Manual sets out rules for advancing that clearly do not apply to PCs; the opening of that section (in the SRD) states...
> 
> "Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster..."
> 
> ...




It is the Monstrous Manual, why should it say Player Character when that is more limiting than the word Monster?

Why does this mention make you believe that none of the book could possibly pertain to Player Characters? As an example I would have no problem with a Player Character taking one of the Feats in the book if that Character Qualified for it.



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> The PHB does *not* assume levels and hit die are the same, it does, however, specify what hit die you gain per level and what other leveling benefits you get.  A PC does not get benefits per hit die (other than hit points and some spell effects that depend upon hit dice), but [d]_do[/b]_ get them per level.




The Players Handbook assumes at least some measure of equivalence between the two. Gaining a Character Level gives a Hit Die along with Special Conditions for what it Gives. Without that the default for the Race would be used. Each Hit Die that a Character has helps for Resisting certain Spells. When being brought back to Life a Character usually loses 1 Level or 1 Hit Die.



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> Of course not,  The awakened animal gains hit die per the monster manual, as they are monsters of the "plant" type.  This is all well-defined and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  They will get d8 hit die and attack advancement as a cleric, as well as a "good Fort save; all well-defined and no applicable to PCs, who advance by level, not hit die.




Why? The Text of both Abilities give 2 Hit Dice without saying anything about what Type they apply to. Elves are in the Monstrous Manual so why do they not gain Benefits based on their Type while the Animals do? Does an Awakened Animal who becomes a Player Character lose the Benefits of their Extra Hit Dice?



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> PCs are not monsters, and "monster" rules do not apply to PCs unless they are generic rules - but rules that specifically apply to monsters (as opposed to PCs) are not PC rules.
> 
> These advancement rules we are discussing are a special set of rules that specify how monsters advance as opposed to how PCs advance.
> 
> So far I fail to see anything even *remotely* convincing that the monster advancement rules would apply, in any way, to PCs.




The Advancement Rules are separate from both the Bardic Music Ability and Awakening but they are a good place to look for determining what Bonuses a Creature receives when they gain Hit Dice. Any Aspects of those Hit Dice that are not Pre-Defined by the Ability would default to Extra Hit Dice of the Creatures Type.

We can find all of this information in the Creature Type Section as well. Either Section may be used to determine the Benefits gained.

I did not say to Advance the Creatures after all but I did say that the Section shows what is Typically gained by each Creature Type when it gains Hit Dice.


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## Mistwell (Apr 19, 2008)

Guys, racial hit dice for PCs are in probably a third of the books put out in the last three years.  Every "Races of" book has some sort of racial hit dice for PCs, for example.  There is no question that in some cases racial hit dice can be applied to PCs.  The only question is whether  this is one of those times, not whether it can be done or is done in the rules.


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Guys, racial hit dice for PCs are in probably a third of the books put out in the last three years.  Every "Races of" book has some sort of racial hit dice for PCs, for example.  There is no question that in some cases racial hit dice can be applied to PCs.  The only question is whether  this is one of those times, not whether it can be done or is done in the rules.




But...

In each of those cases it is something special, with special rules.

I find absolutely no evidence that this would apply here.


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> ...I did not say to Advance the Creatures after all but I did say that the Section shows what is Typically gained by each Creature Type when it gains Hit Dice.




I think not.  The PC is not being "advanced" but is simply gaining Bonus Hit Dice that last for a little while.

There is absolutely no indication at all that these Bonus Hit Die represent an "advancement."

Finding no such evidence, it seems clear that these bonus Hit Die are not a character advancement in any sense of the word.

I look forward to being convinced otherwise, as our adventuring group would benefit mightily from such a rule.

I think you are making this too difficult, it's really quite simple.  You gain 2 (or three, with the feat) Bonus HD.  That's all, not a level, just Hit Dice.  Not "racial" HD, just two d10 HD.  Temporarily, you get extra hit points from those 2 HD, and you count as having the extra HD for spells.  That's about it.

Please convince me I am wrong... I'd love it!


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## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

Why does the word Advanced matter to you so much?

If a Creature has 2 Hit Dice that are not from Class Levels the assumption is clearly to use the Type of the Creature to find out what Benefits are gained by those 2 Hit Dice.

It does not matter if the Creature is a Player Character, Non-Player Character, or anything in between.


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Why does the word Advanced matter to you so much?
> 
> If a Creature has 2 Hit Dice that are not from Class Levels the assumption is clearly to use the Type of the Creature to find out what Benefits are gained by those 2 Hit Dice.
> 
> It does not matter if the Creature is a Player Character, Non-Player Character, or anything in between.




Yes it does.

A PC/NPC advances by level as opposed to monsters who advance by Hit Dice, applying templates or gaining levels.

So a PC who gets extra Hit Dice (unless by using a special racial Hit Dice rule in an *optional* supplement) is not advancing - they do not get the benefits of a monster gaining HD.  Why would they?


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## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

I think you missed my question so I will ask it again.

Why does the word Advanced matter to you so much?


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I think you missed my question so I will ask it again.
> 
> Why does the word Advanced matter to you so much?




I did answer, but I'll make it clearer.

If one is to gain any benefits to Saving Throws, BAB, etc., etc. based upon HD or level, one can only do so by being "advanced" somehow.

PCs advance by level, not by HD.  HD is merely something you get when you advance.  Most things for PCs are decided by level, not HD.

Monsters, on the other hand, follow monster advancement rules. 

That's why a PC who gets Bonus HD somehow does not "advance" like a monster might, he simple has some Bonus HD, not a increase in level which would grant an increase in BAB, etc.

This all seems very clear when considering the core rules only.  When considering supplements that have racial hit die for PCs, one *might* possibly come to a different conclusion, though I doubt it would really be supportable.


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## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> If one is to gain any benefits to Saving Throws, BAB, etc., etc. based upon HD or level, one can only do so by being "advanced" somehow.




?????????Where do you get this from??????? And why does the Bardic Music Ability not qualify???


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> ?????????Where do you get this from??????? And why does the Bardic Music Ability not qualify???




Well, I will be more specific, unless you are granted a level somehow, you don't get level-advancement benefits.

PC's do NOT get HD benefits like monsters do because, well, they are not monsters.  I would LOVE to be convinced otherwise, though.


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## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

I have already said that Elves are in the Monstrous Manual. Elves can also be Player Characters from the Players Handbook. Why should an Elf Controlled by the Dungeon Master be Affected differently than an Elf Controlled by a Player?

From what you have said before I take it you would give an Animal Companion the Full Benefits of 2 Animal Hit Dice?


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I have already said that Elves are in the Monstrous Manual. Elves can also be Player Characters from the Players Handbook. Why should an Elf Controlled by the Dungeon Master be Affected differently than an Elf Controlled by a Player?




Actually, as written, an elf advances by character class  "Advancement: By character class."  Thus that example gains your argument nothing. 



> From what you have said before I take it you would give an Animal Companion the Full Benefits of 2 Animal Hit Dice?




No, they would get the benefits of two Magical Beast hit dice, like the spell says, as backed by the how the Monster Manual says to do it.

But this means nothing - that's for a monster, not a PC.


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## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Actually, as written, an elf advances by character class  "Advancement: By character class."  Thus that example gains your argument nothing.




The Advancement line is not important to my line of reasoning.

You said that only the Rules for gaining Abilities from Extra Hit Dice are in the Monstrous Manual and so only good for the Monsters within. Elves are in the Monstrous Manual and so should be able to follow the Rules for a Humanoid With Hit Dice as per the Type Entry in the Monstrous Manual.



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> No, they would get the benefits of two Magical Beast hit dice, like the spell says, as backed by the how the Monster Manual says to do it.
> 
> But this means nothing - that's for a monster, not a PC.




Bardic Music is neither a Spell nor does it talk about Magical Beast Hit Dice.


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## Artoomis (Apr 19, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> The Advancement line is not important to my line of reasoning.
> 
> You said that only the Rules for gaining Abilities from Extra Hit Dice are in the Monstrous Manual and so only good for the Monsters within. Elves are in the Monstrous Manual and so should be able to follow the Rules for a Humanoid With Hit Dice as per the Type Entry in the Monstrous Manual.
> 
> ...




Wow, you are really starting to lose me.

How about you explain exactly why Bonus HD would grant you, for example, a better BAB.  Also, which BAB?  Fighter, Cleric, etc.

The line in the MM (or SRD) that explains about how something gets better with more HD is exclusively for monster advancement, not PCs, so if that is the basis for your argument, can you explain how getting two (or three) Bonus HD is somehow the same as advancing as a monster?

It seems to me that you are taking this monster advancement table out of context.

Goptta run... I';ll check back in on this thread in a few hours or so, or, if I can't, then tomorrow.

As I said, I look foward to seeing a strong, simple argument against me as I'd b]_love[/b]_ to have my character's Inspire Greatness be signifcantly more powerful.


----------



## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

Hit Dice are what give Creatures the Basic Abilities that they have. Class Levels modify the Basic set of abilities given by Type and Hit Dice.

As an example a Humanoid gains Features and Traits as described in the System Resource Document (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) unless a Specific Rule states otherwise.

When gained in a way that is not represented by Advancement there is no reason to even look at the normal method a Creature Advances with.

To further illustrate this point look at the Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm). A sufficiently powerful Druid with a Wolf as an Animal Companion has a 6 Hit Die Wolf that is not Large. How is this possible? It is because the Wolf is gaining Hit Dice but is not gaining them through Advancement.

A Camel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/camel.htm) has a - for Advancement. Does this mean that if it is Awakened it does not gain 2 Hit Dice? If it is an Animal Companion does this mean that it does not get the Extra Hit Dice from being an Animal Companion?

Every Creature has a Type and all of its Hit Dice give it the Benefits and Penalties listed in its Type description unless another Rule says otherwise. Class Levels are an example of a Rule stating otherwise.


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## Slaved (Apr 19, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> As I said, I look foward to seeing a strong, simple argument against me as I'd b]_love[/b]_ to have my character's Inspire Greatness be signifcantly more powerful.




I do not know a Dungeon Master that would allow it! I started this thread with the question of Why Did They Use The Term Hit Dice Since It Is So Heavily Loaded?!?


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## Artoomis (Apr 20, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I do not know a Dungeon Master that would allow it! I started this thread with the question of Why Did They Use The Term Hit Dice Since It Is So Heavily Loaded?!?




They used "Hit Dice" because:

1.  They wanted Con bonus to apply

and

2.  They wanted the character to have a greater number of Hit Die for spell effects purposes.


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## Artoomis (Apr 20, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Hit Dice are what give Creatures the Basic Abilities that they have. Class Levels modify the Basic set of abilities given by Type and Hit Dice....




You have it exactly backwards.  The PHB is the book which all else modifies, thus levels control basic abilities unless stated otherwise, and the Monster Manual does indeed state otherwise for *monsters without levels.*


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## Nifft (Apr 20, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I disagree.  I came to the same conclusion about the use of the word "temporary" in that rule, and independent of Hyp.
> 
> Your best case scenario is an unusual form of temporary hit points, since these temporary hit points are modified by your Con score, which never happens for any other temporary hit points, and adds a new element to them (what happens if your Con changes while you have those temporary hit points).  I see two rationale interpretations there for sure, and I think denying that the other interpretation is at least rationale is a stretch.



 Take a look at the class that comes immediately before Bard. Four pages before the description of Inspire Greatness, you'll see the description of Rage.

Note the trouble they go through to be very unambiguous about the nature of those bonus, transient, ephemeral, non-permanent -- and yet not temporary -- hit points.

When they say the words "temporary hit points", they mean it.

(And all forms of temporary hit points are "unusual". There's no standard formula.)

Cheers, -- N


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## Mistwell (Apr 20, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> But...
> 
> In each of those cases it is something special, with special rules.
> 
> I find absolutely no evidence that this would apply here.




I tend to agree, I was just pointing out that bonus HD is not an issue reserved just for creatures, at least not anymore.  But, my instincts say that if it was supposed to work that way, they would have put that language in the PHB in that ability text itself, just because it's not obviously otherwise, and a significant power boost to have been overlooked as far as clarifying language goes.


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 20, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Take a look at the class that comes immediately before Bard. Four pages before the description of Inspire Greatness, you'll see the description of Rage.
> 
> Note the trouble they go through to be very unambiguous about the nature of those bonus, transient, ephemeral, non-permanent -- and yet not temporary -- hit points.
> 
> ...




There is a formula.  There is a whole system for tracking temporary hit points, and healing them, and all that.  And most of it doesn't work with this particular ability, because it is dependent on Con (unlike all other temporary hit points).  You get the commensurate hit points - which means if your con changes the hit points change.

I really think they meant temporary in the normal use of that word, to modify hit dice in this case. Otherwise the system goes wonky. Under your interpretation, where they function like regular temporary hit points, they are fixed.  So I can rage, then get inspire greatness, and get the commensurate temporary hit points based on my Raging Con, and then the rage can end and my Con goes back down, but the temporary hit points stay the same.  That means they are no longer based on Con, which I do not think is how these hit points are intended to work.

On the other hand if it is temporary hit dice, then this ability functions fine.  It rises and falls (as it should) as your Con changes.

Your interpretation is much more easily gamed, and doesn't seem to follow the intent of this rule.  And given there are two reasonable interpretations, I think it's best to go with the one that is more consistent with the rule you are dealing with (where it is linked to Con, and hence temporary hit dice).


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## Slaved (Apr 20, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> They used "Hit Dice" because:
> 
> 1.  They wanted Con bonus to apply
> 
> ...




They could have done both of these without bringing up Hit Dice.


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## Slaved (Apr 20, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> You have it exactly backwards.  The PHB is the book which all else modifies, thus levels control basic abilities unless stated otherwise, and the Monster Manual does indeed state otherwise for *monsters without levels.*




So you are going to ignore what I said? My post shows that when following what you have said we are lead to confusing dead ends where we do not know what to do.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 20, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> So you are going to ignore what I said? My post shows that when following what you have said we are lead to confusing dead ends where we do not know what to do.




No, I did not ignore it, I corrected your misperception.

And no, contrary to your position, following what I said is absolutley, positively clear every time and even follows the rules.  

Anyway, sad to say, there appears to be no convincing argument that I am wrong.  Too bad, for that means I do not get a power boost for my Bard's Inspire Greatness.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 20, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> They could have done both of these without bringing up Hit Dice.




Not so easily, not to accomplish the same ends.  I think that any other attempt to get the same results would have liklely been more confusing.

Had I written the description, The only thing I would have changed is to remove the word  "temporary" in the description.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 20, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> There is a formula.



 Post it.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> There is a whole system for tracking temporary hit points, and healing them, and all that.



 You think temporary hit points are something you can heal?



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> Under your interpretation, where they function like regular temporary hit points, they are fixed.



 I don't recall saying that. I think you're adding things to my position and then pointing at those things as bad.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Slaved (Apr 20, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> No, I did not ignore it, I corrected your misperception.




Except that you corrected nothing and provided no evidence for your position or any evidence that contradicted what I said. In fact what I posted directly refutes what you have said and shows that if we use what you have said we are left with Animal Companion Camels that are unable to gain Bonus Hit Dice from the Druid or Ranger Classes.


----------



## Slaved (Apr 20, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Not so easily, not to accomplish the same ends.  I think that any other attempt to get the same results would have liklely been more confusing.
> 
> Had I written the description, The only thing I would have changed is to remove the word  "temporary" in the description.




They could have easily said that the Ability grants 2d10 + twice the Targets Constitution modifier in Temporary Hit Points. This does not bring up Hit Dice at all and has the Effect of granting Temporary Hit Points. By mentioning Hit Dice they bring in everything that Hit Dice represent which means Base Attack Bonus, Saving Throw Bonuses, and the rest.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Oh, man, Slaved, I have to give up trying to convince you.

I have refuted *every* point you brought up, yet you do not see it.  Under such circumstances further argument is pointless.

So, I will bow out.  If you bring in anything new, or choose summarize/restate your position in a single post explaining the logic as I have asked, I would be interested in seeing that, otherwise I am done.


----------



## Slaved (Apr 21, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Oh, man, Slaved, I have to give up trying to convince you.
> 
> I have refuted *every* point you brought up, yet you do not see it.  Under such circumstances further argument is pointless.
> 
> So, I will bow out.  If you bring in anything new, or choose summarize/restate your position in a single post explaining the logic as I have asked, I would be interested in seeing that, otherwise I am done.




I have yet to see you provide any eveidence at all Atroomis. At best you have declared your position that Levels and Hit Dice are different but have provided no actual Rules Proof supporting this. I see no reason why a Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die is different than another Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die and no reason to not give all of the Benefits a Hit Die would give that Creature.

Perhaps Hypersmurf will be kind enough to help in this matter?


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I have yet to see you provide any eveidence at all Atroomis. At best you have declared your position that Levels and Hit Dice are different but have provided no actual Rules Proof supporting this. I see no reason why a Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die is different than another Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die and no reason to not give all of the Benefits a Hit Die would give that Creature.
> 
> Perhaps Hypersmurf will be kind enough to help in this matter?




No proof? No evidence? ROFL. 

Re-read the PHB.  PC's don't gain Hit Die like monsters do, they gain levels, which, in turn, grant Hit Die.

Monsters advance by gaining hit die (with appropriate benefits) or levels (with appropriate benefits, including hit die) or applying templates.   It's possible for monsters to be played as PCs, but there are special ruels for that, and that's not what we are talking about.  We are talking about "normal" PCs.

You are the one who has failed to prove your case.  Where is there a PC-applicable rule that gaining a Bonus Hit Die works like a monster advancing and gaining a Hit Die?  Without such a rule, a PC with  bonus Hit Die is not the same as a moster advancing, which is what the table you keep refering to applies.  *There is no indication that the table is meant to apply in any instance other than advancing a monster.*_/i]

Now, once gaian, I ask to to re-state your case, step-by-step, showing how a PC with Bonus Hit Dice gets to gain all the benefits of the monster advancement table._


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## Slaved (Apr 21, 2008)

Since my case has not been that the Advancement Rules are used why should I defend it?

I did say that they were an easy place to look up what a Creature gets when a Hit Die is gained but then I also said that looking at the Creature Type is a good place to look as well.

Just like with an Animal Companion gaining Hit Dice not using the Advancement in the Creature Description it is not necessary to look at the Rules for Advancing Monsters when adding Hit Dice to a Creature unless they are being Advanced or a Quick Reference to what is Gained is desired.

Creatures are Creatures and they all follow the same Rules. Any Exceptions are Specific but there are none saying that Characters May Not Gain Hit Dice Through Means Other Than Advancement.

Your contention is that Characters and Monsters follow Completely Different Rules or something like that. This is unfounded as you have not provided Rule Evidence and I have not found any in my search through the Core Books.

Any Character may gain Hit Dice. If those Hit Dice came from Levels those Levels will describe how the Hit Dice work and what they give. If those Hit Dice come from something else it will either describe what they give or they will be treated as the default which would give them Benefits according to their Type. Characters may gain Hit Dice through Sources Other Than Normal Advancement!!!!!       

This Link is nice because it shows everything in one place.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice
This Link says that as a Creatures Hit Dice increase they gain the listed Benefits unless the Hit Die comes from a Class in which case it gains Benefits based on the Class.

A Creature is a Creature is a Creature.


----------



## Elethiomel (Apr 21, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> You are the one who has failed to prove your case.  Where is there a PC-applicable rule that gaining a Bonus Hit Die works like a monster advancing and gaining a Hit Die?  Without such a rule, a PC with  bonus Hit Die is not the same as a moster advancing, which is what the table you keep refering to applies.




The table is irrelevant. It summarises what is gained, but you might look up rules text in the creature type section instead, which would give the same numbers only without the loaded (to you, at least) word "advancement" next to it.

All rules are PC applicable. I can not understand your hang-up about monsters being different from PCs on a fundamental level. The rules treat both the same.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> ...Your contention is that Characters and Monsters follow Completely Different Rules or something like that. This is unfounded as you have not provided Rule Evidence and I have not found any in my search through the Core Books...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




Ah, but a "monster" is not a "character."

The link you provided is for *Improving Monsters*.  There is no reason to assume that anything in this section would apply to characters, as characters <> monsters.

Thus, in the core rules, there is no guidance for what happens when a PC gains "Bonus Hit Die" other than what is in the Bard Inspire Greatness description.  So, there is no reason to assume you gain any other benefits.

One trying to posit that other benefits are gained must prove it.  You have failed to do so, because you have failed to prove that a anything in the "Improving Monsters" section applies to "characters."

The intro to that whole section, including the table you linked to, is:



> Improving Monsters
> Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which *extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation*: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.




The table on what happens when you increase a creature's hit dice is in the context of creating an "extraordinary or unique monsters" by "increasing a monster’s Hit Dice."

If you can explain how, taking that context into account, the table can possible apply to PCs given only the cores rules, I'd love it.


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## Slaved (Apr 21, 2008)

Characters all follow the same Rules unless Stated Otherwise. I have found nothing that States Otherwise for Hit Dice and you have not shown anything that States Otherwise.

You are still getting caught up in Advancement. Look at the Creature Type section of the Rules.


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## Nifft (Apr 21, 2008)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Increased Hit Dice
> 
> Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.




Enjoy, -- N


----------



## Slaved (Apr 21, 2008)

Since the Topic of the Thread is not Advancement does the Quote you provide matter Nifft?


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Characters all follow the same Rules unless Stated Otherwise. I have found nothing that States Otherwise for Hit Dice and you have not shown anything that States Otherwise.
> 
> You are still getting caught up in Advancement. Look at the Creature Type section of the Rules.




Okay, on to the "Types and Subtypes" section, then:  

PCs are "Humanoids with [a Monster Manual entry of] 1 Hit Die" and thus "exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."

"Humanoids [who have Monster manual entry] with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type."

There you have it.  The "humanoid Hit Die" features do not apply because:

1.  The rules specifically so state in the "Types and Subtypes - Types - Humanoid Type" section. 

2.  The section on hit die featured applies only to monsters, as it is stricly in the context of creating an "extraordinary or unique monsters" by "increasing a monster’s Hit Dice."

Since Inspire Greatness gives "Bonus Hit Dice" to those who are "Humanoids with 1 Hit Die" (as listed in MM), they do not get the features of the "humanoid" type, but get class features instead.  Now, since these "Bonus Hit Die" are not class levels either, then the PCs get the extra hit points and the extra HD for spell effects, but that's about it.  No humanond hit die features because that's excluded by the above and and no class features because they have not gained a class level.

For monsters (or even monsters as PCs) who get the benefit of Inspire Greatness, I could see an argument taking the opposite position that would be rules-based, at least.  I think it would likely fail the "common sense" test for creating an unbalancing between Monster PCs, at least, and other PCs.  I am also uncertain it would actually be within the core rules, but I haven't looked at this from the perspective of monsters or monsters as PCs.


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## Slaved (Apr 21, 2008)

Your rephrasing of the Rules changes the meaning.

1 is incorrect because that is not what the Rules say.

2 is incorrect because the Rules apply to all Characters regardless of whether they are played by a Player or the Dungeon Master.

I still have no idea what Rules you are using to say that Characters are not Characters.


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## Mistwell (Apr 21, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Post it.




"When a character with temporary hit points is dealt damage, deduct the damage from temporary hit points first, then deduct any remaining damage (if any) to the character's actual (nontemporary) hit points. Temporary hit points can cause a character's hit point total to exceed its normal maximum." 

and 

"Temporary Hit Points

Certain effects give a character temporary hit points. When a character gains temporary hit points, note his current hit point total. When the temporary hit points go away the character’s hit points drop to his current hit point total. If the character’s hit points are below his current hit point total at that time, all the temporary hit points have already been lost and the character’s hit point total does not drop further.

When temporary hit points are lost, they cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic.
Increases in Constitution Score and Current Hit Points

An increase in a character’s Constitution score, even a temporary one, can give her more hit points (an effective hit point increase), but these are not temporary hit points. They can be restored and they are not lost first as temporary hit points are. "



> You think temporary hit points are something you can heal?




No, I think they are something you CANNOT heal.  But, hit points from increased hit dice CAN be healed.



> I don't recall saying that. I think you're adding things to my position and then pointing at those things as bad.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




You didn't say that, you said they are temporary hit points and not temporary hit dice that grant commensurate hit points (which, by the nature of the hit dice, are temporary).  Temporary hit points (as opposed to hit points from temporary hit dice) "cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic."  In addition, while hit points can be changed by things that increase other things (like things that increase your Con score), "but these are not temporary hit points."

Hence, in effect you said they are fixed, since temporary hit points are fixed and cannot be changed based on other changes in the character (like increased Con, or increased hit dice).


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## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Your rephrasing of the Rules changes the meaning.
> 
> 1 is incorrect because that is not what the Rules say.
> 
> ...




What re-phrasing?  What meaning did I change?  Please point it out.  The Monster Manual rules say that 1 HD humanoids (which is all normal PCs) do not get humanoid hit die features.  I only added clarifying text in brackets because I ripped those sentences out of context, but that did not change the meaning.

And no, not all rules apply equally to all creatures.  Some monster rules do not apply to PCs.  If the rule says it applies to "monsters," than it is not a PC rule.

All rules about adding racial hit die in the core rules are in the section on improving monsters - that section does not apply to "characters" or even "creatures" in general, but to "monsters."  Yes, monsters and characters are both "creatures," but not all "creatures" are characters.

While the term "creature" is indeed used above the "Creature Improvement by Type" table, that table itself is limited in applicability by the fact that it is within the section on "improving monsters" and even further, specifically states that, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. "

Yet MORE evidence that this table does not apply to PCs.

While it is indeed true that most rules for monsters and PCs are the same, the rules for improving monsters (which includes the "Creature Improvement by Type" table) do not apply to normal PCs.  PCs are not monsters

Now, what evidence do YOU have that this table applies to PCs?  Merely the fact that the table is title "Creature Improvement by Type?"

Yet I have shown by three seperate pieces of rules evidence that:

1.  This table does not apply to PCS because it is dealing with improving mosters.
2.  This table does not apply to PCs because of its own note: "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. "
3.  This table does not apply to PCs because: PCs are "Humanoids with [a Monster Manual entry of] 1 Hit Die" and thus "exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."

Anyone one of those is convincing by iteslf, together they should be considered ovehwelming evidence.

*Even if we were to ignore (1) and (3) above, as you seem to be doing, how do you deal with the note "that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type?"*


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## moritheil (Apr 21, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I have yet to see you provide any eveidence at all Atroomis. At best you have declared your position that Levels and Hit Dice are different but have provided no actual Rules Proof supporting this. I see no reason why a Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die is different than another Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die and no reason to not give all of the Benefits a Hit Die would give that Creature.
> 
> Perhaps Hypersmurf will be kind enough to help in this matter?




To be fair, Slaved, I have yet to see you accept any evidence that is directly contrary to any position you support in any thread - regardless of the number or caliber of posters that offer said evidence (including Hyp.)  I'm going to try to point something out, so please don't take it personally.

I'm not saying you don't have a point with this particular argument here, just that it helps to acknowledge your own bias if you want other people to acknowledge your arguments.  There are people you argued to a standstill in other threads that are going to be hesitant to accept that Artoomis hasn't provided quality evidence just because you say it isn't up to your standards.

This sort of harsh, abbreviated dismissal is also a classic example of how people frustrate interlocutors on a BBS:



> 1 is incorrect because that is not what the Rules say.




It espouses no position and does not offer direct counterevidence - i.e. "This is what the rules say (quote) and this is what you said (quote), and this is the difference; therefore what you said is not what the rules say."  It's not a good way to continue dialogue.

I don't mean to come down on you in particular, but I don't have private messaging capabilities and this is the third or fourth time I have seen a post that looks like this:



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> Oh, man, Slaved, I have to give up trying to convince you.
> 
> I have refuted every point you brought up, yet you do not see it. Under such circumstances further argument is pointless.
> 
> So, I will bow out. If you bring in anything new, or choose summarize/restate your position in a single post explaining the logic as I have asked, I would be interested in seeing that, otherwise I am done.




Again, I'm not saying you ought to agree with him, just that it seems that this sort of thing can be avoided if you're more expressive of what you believe the rules are saying.  This goes for everyone who abbreviates their posts in rules discussions.


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## Nifft (Apr 21, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Your best case scenario is an unusual form of temporary hit points, since these temporary hit points are modified by your Con score, which never happens for any other temporary hit points, and adds a new element to them





			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> (And all forms of temporary hit points are "unusual". There's no standard formula.)





			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> "When a character with temporary hit points is dealt damage, deduct the damage from temporary hit points first, then deduct any remaining damage (if any) to the character's actual (nontemporary) hit points. Temporary hit points can cause a character's hit point total to exceed its normal maximum."
> 
> and
> 
> ...



 I honestly have no idea how you can think what you posted answers my question, or how it is a formula, or how any of it backs up your assertion that by adding a target's Con bonus to temporary hit points negates the usual meaning of the words "temporary hit points".



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> Increases in Constitution Score and Current Hit Points
> 
> An increase in a character’s Constitution score, even a temporary one, can give her more hit points (an effective hit point increase), but these are not temporary hit points. They can be restored and they are not lost first as temporary hit points are. "



 Right, see the Barbarian's Rage class feature (four pages before Inspire Greatness).

Are you agreeing with me here? You've just posted how a boost to non-temporary (yet still transient) hit points would look. Clearly, you can see there's no such language in Inspire Greatness. Right?



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> No, I think they are something you CANNOT heal.  But, hit points from increased hit dice CAN be healed.



 Then you misspoke last post. See your previous post and note the word "heal" in the text. We agree about that, I guess, so ... uh ... okay?



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> You didn't say that, you said they are temporary hit points and not temporary hit dice that grant commensurate hit points (which, but the nature of the hit dice, are temporary).  Temporary hit points (as opposed to hit points from temporary hit dice) "cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic."  In addition, while hit points can be changed by things that increase other things (like things that increase your Con score), "but these are not temporary hit points."
> 
> Hence, in effect you said they are fixed, since temporary hit points are fixed and cannot be changed based on other changes in the character (like increased Con, or increased hit dice).



 The usual, non-exceptional hit points granted by increased Con are not temporary hit points.

However, if you're subject to an effect that grants you temporary hit points based on your Con bonus, why would you not also gain additional temporary hit points when your Con bonus increases?

(Consider a spell that gives the subject a bonus on damage rolls equal to his Dexterity bonus. Normally, increasing his Dexterity temporarily would not increase his damage bonus, because Dexterity is not normally added to damage. However, while under the effect of this spell, he would indeed gain an additional bonus to damage commensurate to his increased Dexterity bonus.)

There's no contradiction. You're just trying to lump two different things into a single category.

Cheers, -- N


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## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Nifft and Mistwell:

I see both your points.  WotC created this confusion by allowing for "Bonus Hit Die" that grant "Temporary Hit Points" (and also count for spell effects).

Nowhere else in the rules are there any "Temporary Hit Points” that are not a fixed value.

Nowhere else in the rules can you get Bonus HD (I think).

The situation created by the language in Inspire Greatness is unique.

I can see both view points as having legitimacy.

As for us, in our group, we allow that the "Temporary Hit Points: from "Bonus Hit Die" are healable because they are not the classic, fixed-value Temporary Hit Points but are Hit Points derived from the Bonus Hit Die, so they can be healed as long as the Bonus Hit Die still exist (until the song effects run out).

I am sure that other groups would not view it that way, and I will not say they are wrong.  I think this is one of those cases where the rules are partially contradictory such that both positions are, in fact, correct in that they are defensible by any reasonable reading of the rules.


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## Slaved (Apr 21, 2008)

moritheil said:
			
		

> To be fair, Slaved, I have yet to see you accept any evidence that is directly contrary to any position you support in any thread - regardless of the number or caliber of posters that offer said evidence (including Hyp.)  I'm going to try to point something out, so please don't take it personally.
> 
> I'm not saying you don't have a point with this particular argument here, just that it helps to acknowledge your own bias if you want other people to acknowledge your arguments.  There are people you argued to a standstill in other threads that are going to be hesitant to accept that Artoomis hasn't provided quality evidence just because you say it isn't up to your standards.




To be fair I usually do not Comment when people are correct and I give a lot of latitude as long as the Arguement is Logical. Much of the time that leaves me with nothing to say but I will certainly point out Problems in Logic when I can!     

But at this point I am just down to brief statements until Artoomis comes up with a Rule that I can work off of to either Agree with or Contend with. Artoomis is under the Assumption that Monster Rules and Player Rules are Very Different but I see nothing to Confirm this and much that Denies it.

I have provided many direct Quotes and Links to the Rules to either Support my Position or to Show Fault in the Opposing Position. So far I see nothing to Support Artoomis's Position.

I do not know which Rules Artoomis thinks are Different between Monsters created by the Dungeon Master and other Characters. I have no where to look for them as I have found no Evidence of it in the Rules that I do have and Artoomis will not help me by giving me a Rules Quote.


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## Slaved (Apr 21, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> N
> Nowhere else in the rules are there any "Temporary Hit Points” that are not a fixed value.




The False Life Spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseLife.htm



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> Nowhere else in the rules can you get Bonus HD (I think).




The Awaken Spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm


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## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> The False Life Spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseLife.htm




Interesting.  A different case, but it has some similarity.  In this case the extra variable (above the d10) is based upon caster level, so that cannot change after the spell is cast.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> The Awaken Spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm




Those are not "Bonus Hit Die."  Those are simply two additional, permanent Hit Dice that rather obviously would fall under the rules for "Improving Monsters".  This has no applicability to "Inspire Greatness."


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## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Arrrgh... another double post.


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## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> ...But at this point I am just down to brief statements until Artoomis comes up with a Rule that I can work off of to either Agree with or Contend with. ...So far I see nothing to Support Artoomis's Position...




huh?

Please address the following, specifically, with a specific counter rules quote/rule-based argument:

1. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table does not apply to PCs because it is dealing with improving mosters, and not just creatures in general.

(The Improving Monsters section is for "monsters," not "creatures" in general.)

2. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table does not apply to PCs because of its own note: "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. "

(You have not yet addressed this - this is a new rules quote not yet seen in this discussion, I think.  All PCs have acquired a character class, so do not use this table.)

3. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table does not apply to PCs because: PCs are "Humanoids with [a Monster Manual entry of] 1 Hit Die" and thus "exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."

(I have not seen your counter to this yet, unless you intended to counter this one with a vague, general comment about "rephrasing rules,' but that was unclear.)


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## Slaved (Apr 21, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Those are not "Bonus Hit Die." Those are simply two additional, permanent Hit Dice that rather obviously would fall under the rules for "Improving Monsters". This has no applicability to "Inspire Greatness."




They are Hit Dice not gained through Advancement and can be taken away with Break Enchantment.

If you prefer though the Druid gives Bonus Hit Dice to their Animal Companion.


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 21, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> I honestly have no idea how you can think what you posted answers my question, or how it is a formula,




That was a formula.  It says to make two lists of numbers, it details how to calculate each number, what to SUBTRACT from one list before you SUBTRACT from the other list, and what happens to one set of numbers when the other set of numbers go away.  I don't know how complicated a formula you were looking for, but that is a formula.  If you think it is not a formula, tell me why.



> or how any of it backs up your assertion that by adding a target's Con bonus to temporary hit points negates the usual meaning of the words "temporary hit points".




That part was below.



> Right, see the Barbarian's Rage class feature (four pages before Inspire Greatness).
> 
> Are you agreeing with me here? You've just posted how a boost to non-temporary (yet still transient) hit points would look. Clearly, you can see there's no such language in Inspire Greatness. Right?




First, the issue at hand: they are *temporary* increased hit dice, correct?  We both agree the hit dice are not permanent, but are temporary? And the hit dice come with *commensurate* hit points, adjusted by your Con as normal for increased hit dice, correct? And we both agree that clause I just quoted demonstrates that temporary increases in things which have an influence on hit points (like Con score) are not themselves "temporary hit points" as you are using that phrase, correct?

So when you say you cannot see where I am going with this, can you see it now? You might not agree with it, but you're claiming you don't even get the argument I am making, so I want to make sure it's at least understood first. 

As for your response, you can overuse the word "clearly" til your blue in the face, but it doesn't sound more persuasive.  There are two rationale interpretations here, and one is not "clearly" superior to the other on it's face or else we wouldn't be debating this.

You don't need that Barbarian-type language for that formula to be used.  WOTC uses increased hit dice in other books, like the Races Of books, and they do not use the Barbarian language to explain it but simply use increased hit dice like humanoid hit dice.  I can name dozens of times when WOTC is not consistent in repeating some explanatory language, but that doesn't mean the lack of that repeated explanatory language negates the use of the ability as normal.



> Then you misspoke last post. See your previous post and note the word "heal" in the text. We agree about that, I guess, so ... uh ... okay?




I didn't mis-speak, but perhaps I was not as clear as I should have been.  There is a system that designates what is done concerning healing temporary hit points, and the rule is "you cannot".  All I said was that the system speaks to the issue, not what it does with the issue.



> The usual, non-exceptional hit points granted by increased Con are not temporary hit points.




Indeed, and hit points granted by temporary hit dice are also not "temporary hit points" in the manner you are using them.  Because you CAN heal them, which is something you cannot do with "temporary hit points". We agree you can heal hit points that are related to  temporarily increased hit dice, right?  And we agree that you cannot heal "temporary hit points", right? So we agree these two things (temporary increased Con, and temporary increased Hit Dice) are similar things in the rules, right?



> However, if you're subject to an effect that grants you temporary hit points based on your Con bonus, why would you not also gain additional temporary hit points when your Con bonus increases?




Because that isn't what the ability says.  It's not temporary hit points based on your Con, it's temporary hit dice, which comes with commensurate hit points as adjusted as usual by Con.  That's the distinction.  I can think of no way to get "temporary hit points" that are adjusted by your Con score without having them linked to Hit Dice.  Can you?



> (Consider a spell that gives the subject a bonus on damage rolls equal to his Dexterity bonus. Normally, increasing his Dexterity temporarily would not increase his damage bonus, because Dexterity is not normally added to damage. However, while under the effect of this spell, he would indeed gain an additional bonus to damage commensurate to his increased Dexterity bonus.)




Your theoretical spell notwithstanding, we have plenty of actual rules to work with right now to be requiring hypotheticals.



> There's no contradiction. You're just trying to lump two different things into a single category.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




I don't recall mentioning a contradiction.  Indeed, I think the reverse is going on: you are trying to lump Temporary Hit Dice (and the commensurate number of hit points as normally adjusted by Con, which would by their nature be described as temporary), with Temporary Hit Points, the thing which is never related to your Con score, and which is never related to your hit dice, and which follows different rules than Temporary Hit Dice increases to hit points such as the ability heal the later.


----------



## Slaved (Apr 21, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> huh?
> 
> Please address the following, specifically, with a specific counter rules quote/rule-based argument:
> 
> ...




How can I address any of this except to say that I see no support for your Assumption that Player Characters are not Creatures.

There is no reason to Assume the Rules in the Core Books do not apply to all Creatures. In order to Prove to me that there are Vast Differences you would have to show Rules that say so!!!!


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> They are Hit Dice not gained through Advancement and can be taken away with Break Enchantment.
> 
> If you prefer though the Druid gives Bonus Hit Dice to their Animal Companion.




Good one.  It appears, in that context at least, the companion gets full benefit of those Bonus Hit Dice (though some argue about Skill Points and Ability Score boosts, as they are not mentioned).

Not enough to counter my three-point post above, but at least it is directly from the rules.


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 21, 2008)

I will offer an example of Characters (as opposed to NPCs/Monsters) using racial hit dice.

Races of the Wild, pg. 99, Gnoll.  Understand there are two sections under the Gnoll (and all the races mentioned in the book that have racial hit dice).  One section is for use with Characters, the other section is for use With Monsters.  The Gnoll Characters section says:

Gnoll *characters* possess the following racial traits:

[List of stuff]
Racial Hit Dice: A gnoll begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1; and a base saving throw bonus of Fort +3, Ref+0, and Will+0.
Racial Skills: A gnoll's humanoid levels give him skill points equal to 5 x (2 + Int modifier).  His class skills are Listen and Spot.
Racial Feats: A gnoll's humanoid levels give him one feat.

[List of stuff]

Again, just to be clear, this is for use with PCs, explicitly.  It gives the full write-up, Gnoll Characters, Roleplaying a Gnoll, Gnoll Adventurers, all the stuff you find for any new race.  There is a different section called "Gnoll Monster Class" for use with NPCs/Monsters.

And there are dozens of these examples throughout the Races Of books.

So, can we put an end to the claim that the rules for Racial Hit Dice are for use only with NPCs/Monsters?  They can also be used for PCs, and the question is whether this is one of those times or not, not whether or not the Racial Hit Dice rules can ever be used for PCs.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> How can I address any of this except to say that I see no support for your Assumption that Player Characters are not Creatures.
> 
> There is no reason to Assume the Rules in the Core Books do not apply to all Creatures. In order to Prove to me that there are Vast Differences you would have to show Rules that say so!!!!




I have never, ever stated that PCs are not creatures.

I stated that *monsters* are not PCs.

Attempting to dismiss my arguments by vague "hand-waving" and "grand-standing," which is essentially what you are doing here, is not very... convincing.

I just have given you three specific rules that state that the "Creature Improvement by Type" does not apply to PCs.  I'll re-state them here so you can present specific, point-by-point counter-arguments.  Note that I am in no way saying PCs are not creatures:

1.  The "Creature Improvement by Type" table is in the context of "Improving Monsters" and PCs are not monsters, so it does not apply.

2.  The table itself states "if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type," which means the table does not apply to PCs who, in fact, have are creatures who have acquired a character class.

3.  PCs are "Humanoids with [a Monster Manual entry of] 1 Hit Die" and thus "exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."  Since they have exchanged "the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class, PCs do not get "the features of their humanoid Hit Die."

I ask you to *please* tackle these three statements piece by piece, not just in one general "hand-waving" statement.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> ...So, can we put an end to the claim that the rules for Racial Hit Dice are for use only with NPCs/Monsters?  They can also be used for PCs, and the question is whether this is one of those times or not, not whether or not the Racial Hit Dice rules can ever be used for PCs.




You may have noticed I was specifically sticking with core rules PCs to keep it simple.  I was not dealing with any optional rules, nor with using monsters as PCs.

Yes, it is true that a PC can get some *intial benefit* from racial hit dice when using monsters as PCs, but they do not "improve" that way, unless using other optional rules on managing the impact of Level Adjustments (LAs) and the like.

I think, for the purposes of this discussion, it is best to stick with the core rules for now, come to an agreement (if that is possible) on what the core rules say, and then look to how other books modify that.  Even better would be if we stuck only to "normal" PCs until we can agree on how they are handled, then move on to other, more unusual, PCs.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 21, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> I have never, ever stated that PCs are not creatures.
> 
> I stated that *monsters* are not PCs.




Let's say we have a gnoll PC or an ogre PC, who has Inspire Greatness used on him.

Do you feel that in this situation, since the PC is a monster, the bonus hit dice will improve his BAB and saves?

-Hyp.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 21, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Let's say we have a gnoll PC or an ogre PC, who has Inspire Greatness used on him.
> 
> Do you feel that in this situation, since the PC is a monster, the bonus hit dice will improve his BAB and saves?
> 
> -Hyp.




No, but I can see an argument that might support that.

But... I want to stay with basic PCs, not monsters as PCs, to keep it simple, and because rules exist prohibiting basic PCs from using the "Creature Improvement by Type" table, but those rules are not as crystal clear when using Monsters as PCs.

If I could get everyone to agree (hey,... it *could* happen) that a "regular" PC may not use the "Creature Improvement by Type" table, I would, at that point, be interested in how that might change for mosnters as PCs, or when using some expansion books.


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 21, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> You may have noticed I was specifically sticking with core rules PCs to keep it simple.  I was not dealing with any optional rules, nor with using monsters as PCs.




These are not listed as optional rules.  When rules are optional, they call them out as optional (like sidebars or Unearthed Arcana). It's not a CORE book, but that is different from being an optional rule.  In this case, it's WOTC using the CORE rules in an expansion book.

You can decline to use books other than CORE books, but I do not see why it's helpful, particularly if it helps clarify the issue by looking to see what WOTC does with it's own rules.



> Yes, it is true that a PC can get some *intial benefit* from racial hit dice when using monsters as PCs, but they do not "improve" that way, unless using other optional rules on managing the impact of ECLs and the like.




This is a shift in your position.  You were saying earlier that the Racial Hit Dice rules were reserved just for NPCs/Monsters.  Now, you are saying they can be used for PCs, but just initially and not through an improvement.  But, you don't have backing for that part (yet).  All of your prior posts on the topic assumed a total dismissal of the Racial Hit Dice rules in their entirety for PCs.  Now that we both agree they can be used for PCs, the burden is on you to show why temporary hit dice wouldn't work that way.



> I think, for the purposes of this discussion, it is best to stick with the core rules for now, come to an agreement (if that is possible) on what the core rules say, and then look to how other books modify that.  Even better would be if we stuck only to "normal" PCs until we can agree on how they are handled, then move on to other, more unusual, PCs.




I disagree.  We don't know what the CORE means in this case, and looking to an expansion book from WOTC that uses those CORE rules in an example case, like the PC Gnoll or Centaur or whatever, is helpful in figuring out what those CORE rules mean.  Besides, the meaning of CORE was degraded a long time ago.  Multiclassing rules for prestige classes were left to the Complete books, Swift and Immediate actions were found in expansion books, and the Rules Compendium specifically overrides the CORE books anyway.  Whatever value there was in sticking to CORE-only for a debate, I think it's long gone, and even more-so for an issue that is in fact found in the CORE books it's just unclear how to use it (MM is CORE, and so is PHB, and both speak to what happens when something gains hit dice, and an expansion book is helpful in understanding what that thing is since the CORE fails to explain it in sufficient detail for folks like yourself to be satisfied).

"You cannot use the racial hit dice rules for PCs" position is not compelling.  

Arguing:

"it shouldn't be used in this case" 

is more compelling than:

"it cannot be used in any case, because of obscure interpretations of what is or is not CORE and what a Monster vs. a Creature is, and only if we don't look at expansion books even when those books are using CORE rules to apply them to a new race."

You should focus on your most compelling argument (that it shouldn't work that way in this case) and not stick to shaky ground (that it cannot work that way in any case).


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> ...This is a shift in your position.  You were saying earlier that the Racial Hit Dice rules were reserved just for NPCs/Monsters...




No it's not - you are misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position.

PCs/NPCs from the PHB (NOT including monsters as PCs/NPCs) do not use racial hit die (not counting some expansion book that might change the rules to add something in).

I have completely limited my arguments to normal, average, everyday PCs/NPCs who would be listed in the MM as humanoids having 1 Hit Die.

No character who fits that defintion may use the "Creature Improvement by Type" table.

They are specifically excluded from doing so by quite a few rules.

1.  The table itself has this note, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. "  (Of course, this applies to ALL creatures, not just PCs, and would apply to monsters as PCs, too.)

2.  The "Creature Improvement by Type" table is presented in the context of improving monsters.

3.  The humanoid type says: "Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."

4.  Even the "Monsters as Races" section states, "Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class. "  

5.  More from "Monsters as Races:"  Creatures with Hit Dice of 1 or less have normal, class-based Hit Dice and features. They get skills and feats appropriate to a 1st-level character (even if they have a level adjustment). 

(4) and (5) are not terribly strong statements, granted, but I fail to see how anyone can read (1) and think that the Creature Improvement by Type table applies to the "improvement" of ANY creature with a character class.

Now, if someone wants to argue that Bonus HD are not an "improvement," well, okay, but then the table does not apply in any case as it applies only for "improvements."


----------



## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> That was a formula.  It says to make two lists of numbers, it details how to calculate each number, what to SUBTRACT from one list before you SUBTRACT from the other list, and what happens to one set of numbers when the other set of numbers go away.  I don't know how complicated a formula you were looking for, but that is a formula.  If you think it is not a formula, tell me why.



 Okay, you get one point for making it a formula. But negative ten points for being totally irrelevant.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> That part was below.



 No, it wasn't, and it's still not (despite whatever you edited). The SRD quote below is simply a description of temporary hit points -- which I quote as part of my argument. Trust me, it's not going to win you this argument.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> First, the issue at hand: they are *temporary* increased hit dice, correct?



 No. They are *bonus* hit dice, which is a term that appears nowhere else, and is apparently difficult to suss. Thus, their nature is under contention.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> We both agree the hit dice are not permanent, but are temporary?



 They are *bonus*, and they go away when the effect goes away -- but I don't see any limit on the effect's duration. You could hire a Warforged Bard to follow you around and Inspire Greatness in you until your natural death.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> And the hit dice come with *commensurate* hit points, adjusted by your Con as normal for increased hit dice, correct?



 Nope. If you read the passage you quote (the one you refer to as "below", above) you'll notice that the *normal* HP granted by an increased Con score are not *temporary*. Since Inspire Greatness grants *temporary* hit points, the extra ones granted by a combination of Inspire Greatness and increased Con score should be regarded as abnormal to the point of uniqueness.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> And we both agree that clause I just quoted demonstrates that temporary increases in things which have an influence on hit points (like Con score) are not themselves "temporary hit points" as you are using that phrase, correct?



 The hit points that a Con increase always grant are not "temporary hit points". The additional temporary hit points that the combination of a Con increase and Inspire Greatness grant (above and beyond the *normal* hit points granted by the Con increase) are "temporary hit points".



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> So when you say you cannot see where I am going with this, can you see it now? You might not agree with it, but you're claiming you don't even get the argument I am making, so I want to make sure it's at least understood first.



 I don't get how you can think your argument makes sense. I've tried to spell out why above.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> As for your response, you can overuse the word "clearly" til your blue in the face, but it doesn't sound more persuasive.  There are two rationale interpretations here, and one is not "clearly" superior to the other on it's face or else we wouldn't be debating this.



 I'll try to make it more clear. (Also, you should look up "rationale". That's the third time.)



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> We agree you can heal hit points that are related to  temporarily increased hit dice, right?  And we agree that you cannot heal "temporary hit points", right? So we agree these two things (temporary increased Con, and temporary increased Hit Dice) are similar things in the rules, right?



 There are no effects that temporarily increase your actual hit dice, so I honestly have no clue if they are handled the same way. I'd imagine so, but I'd like to see one before commenting. ("Begging the question", etc.)



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> Your theoretical spell notwithstanding, we have plenty of actual rules to work with right now to be requiring hypotheticals.



 Does this mean you didn't understand the distinction I was making?



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> I don't recall mentioning a contradiction.  Indeed, I think the reverse is going on: you are trying to lump Temporary Hit Dice (and the commensurate number of hit points as normally adjusted by Con, which would by their nature be described as temporary), with Temporary Hit Points, the thing which is never related to your Con score, and which is never related to your hit dice, and which follows different rules than Temporary Hit Dice increases to hit points such as the ability heal the later.



 ("Begging the question", etc.) "Temporary hit points" are related to your Con when someone uses Inspire Greatness on you. The fact that they're not governed by Con at other times is irrelevant.

_False life_ grants 1d10+caster level temporary hit points. _Aid_ grants 1d8. Since _aid_ ignores caster level, is _false life_ wrong? No, because there is *no* standard formula for temporary hit points.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> ...You should focus on your most compelling argument...




Okay, I'll do that.  My *most compelling argument* was only recently discovered by me and may have gotten lost in the shuffle.

The Creature Improvement by Type table itself has this note, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type." 

All characters of any sort have acquired a character class, thus they "improves according to ... class, not ... type."

Okay, so now we've established that no creature with a class (that's pretty much all characters isn't it?) "improves" by type.

Well, now , so what happens with Bonus HD?

Either:

(1) They are an "improvement" and thus the table does not apply because the creature has a character class

or:

(2) It's not an "improvement" and thus the table does not apply anyway (because, well..., duh..., it's not an "improvement." ).

A final possibility is that this is an "improvement" and thus, per the note above, the character improves by class, gaining a sort of "temporary level," but I think that would voilate too many rules to even be considered.

Okay, I think this is my most compelling argument, and even (suprise!, surpise!) applies to monsters as PCs.

Counter-arguments, anyone?


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> No. They are *bonus* hit dice, which is a term that appears nowhere else, and is apparently difficult to suss. Thus, their nature is under contention.




It's been pointed out that both the Druid's Animal Companion and the Paladin's Mount gain bonus hit dice, and their BAB, saves, feats, etc increase as normal.

-Hyp.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> It's been pointed out that both the Druid's Animal Companion and the Paladin's Mount gain bonus hit dice, and their BAB, saves, feats, etc increase as normal.



 Ah, thanks. Yes, they do. (And the language difference between those extra hit dice and the benefits granted by Inspire Greatness is large.)

Fortunately, the argument which I made in response to you specifically -- and to which I'd appreciate your considered reply -- doesn't hinge on the word "bonus". 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## moritheil (Apr 22, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Either:
> 
> (1) They are an "improvement" and thus the table does not apply because the creature has a character class
> 
> ...




So, your argument is that if they are an improvement they must be in one of two categories.  Doesn't this presuppose that the two categories mentioned are the only two possible categories?  I could easily read this:



> The Creature Improvement by Type table itself has this note, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type."




and conclude that it does not rule out more than two types of advancement, but the text is only concerning itself with the choice between improving according to class and improving according to type.


On an unrelated note,


			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> We agree you can heal hit points that are related to temporarily increased hit dice, right? And we agree that you cannot heal "temporary hit points", right? So we agree these two things (temporary increased Con, and temporary increased Hit Dice) are similar things in the rules, right?




Similar really doesn't mean you treat two things the exact same way . . . squares and rectangles are similar under most systems of rules, and you might easily argue that for most cases they are treated the same, but there are a few cases in which it matters whether something is a square or a rectangle.

If "similar" is good enough, you could go to your DM and say, "Hey, silver and platinum are similar in the rules, right?  Both are currency, somewhat corrosion-resistant, have similar coloration . . . I just want to scratch out '100 silver' on my sheet and put '100 platinum' down.  No problem, right?"


----------



## Elethiomel (Apr 22, 2008)

[Removed by moderator request.]
Fixed that for you.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

moritheil said:
			
		

> So, your argument is that if they are an improvement they must be in one of two categories.  Doesn't this presuppose that the two categories mentioned are the only two possible categories?  I could easily read this:
> ...
> and conclude that it does not rule out more than two types of advancement, but the text is only concerning itself with the choice between improving according to class and improving according to type.
> ...




Ah, FINALLY, someone is actually taking on the key argument.  Thank you very much.  I appreciate it.

Okay, let's say, just for fun, that there are more than two types of "improvement" (note I use the word "improvement" rather than "advancement" because that is the language used in the note and table, but I think they are used as interchangable terms, really).

Can you please explain how that would make any difference?  The table is only valid for improving by "type."  Thus, if you are improving by neither type nor class, the table STILL does not apply, right?

In fact, there probably IS another way to "improve," and that's by rules that create a special exception and generate an improvement that is neither by type nor class.  In such a case, the rule must specify how the improvement is accomplished.

These cases of "improvement" (increase in Hit Die) that have been mentioned are:

Awaken:  Affects a monster (animal, in this case); specificies additional  hit dice and a creature type change, so the former animal improves as a magical beast using the table as normal for a magical beast.

Druid's animal companion: Affects a monster (animal); specificies bonus 8-sided hit die,  special BAB (as Cleric) (same as the table), Good Fort and Reflex (same as the table).  Skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.  Special STR/DEX bonuses for advancing, special additional tricks, special abilities.

All the rules well spelled out for this special case.

Paladin's Mount:  Affects a monster (animal):  Becomes Magical Beast, but retains animal characteristics for improving, much like a Druid's animal companion.  Has some other specifically spelled out benefits tied to advancement as well.

All the rules well spelled out for this special case.

Inspire Greatness:  Affects a character (or monster).  Grants Two Bonus (d10) HD, plus Con Bonus and "the commensurate number of temporary hit points", (whatever that really means in this context) plus counts as extra HD for spell effects.

Now, given the way everything is well spelled-out for all the other instances of unusual HD improvement, it seems like this would be all you get for Inspire Courage.  Certainly, as I have shown above, the Humanoid (or whatever) Type "improvement" table would not apply.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Ah, thanks. Yes, they do. (And the language difference between those extra hit dice and the benefits granted by Inspire Greatness is large.)




Between those _bonus_ hit dice, and the bonus hit dice granted by Inspire Greatness?

-Hyp.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> Fixed that for you.




None of that, please.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> Fixed that for you.




[Redacted:  Hypersmurf beat me to it  ]

BTW, as it turns out my argument holds up very well in all cases, with the possible exception of some optional rules that might specifically overide the core rules to allow racial hit die advancement for PCs somehow.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Awaken:  Affects a monster (animal, in this case); specificies additional  hit dice and a creature type change, so the former animal improves as a magical beast using the table as normal for a magical beast.




Pretty much improves as an Animal, in all the important aspects; things like hit dice, BAB, saves, and skill points (the type-specific things that improve with hit dice) are faetures, not traits; and the Awakened creature is a Magical Beast (Augmented Animal), meaning it has the traits of a Magical Beast, but the features of an Animal.

-Hyp.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Between those _bonus_ hit dice, and the bonus hit dice granted by Inspire Greatness?
> 
> -Hyp.




Actually, yes, there is a lot of language difference between how those other Bonus HD are presented and how the Inspire Greatness Bonus HD are presented.

Though that's not my argument.  My argument is that characters with class levels may no longer use the "type" improvement table (they might possibly for monster improvements taken prior to taking a class).  The table itself specifies this.


----------



## Elethiomel (Apr 22, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Actually, yes, there is a lot of language difference between how those other Bonus HD are presented and how the Inspire Greatness Bonus HD are presented.
> 
> Though that's not my argument.  My argument is that characters with class levels may no longer use the "type" improvement table (they might possibly for monster improvements taken prior to taking a class).  The table itself specifies this.




So you're arguing that once a Dragon takes a level of Sorcerer, it can no longer age?


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Pretty much improves as an Animal, in all the important aspects; things like hit dice, BAB, saves, and skill points (the type-specific things that improve with hit dice) are faetures, not traits; and the Awakened creature is a Magical Beast (Augmented Animal), meaning it has the traits of a Magical Beast, but the features of an Animal.
> 
> -Hyp.




Okay, I'll correct the post above.  My mistake  Still, the rules are clear on this one, and that is the point.


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 22, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> No it's not - you are misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position.
> 
> PCs/NPCs from the PHB (NOT including monsters as PCs/NPCs) do not use racial hit die (not counting some expansion book that might change the rules to add something in).
> 
> ...




I gave you the reason for looking outside of CORE, and you ignored it.  It was written just in response to your post.  And you previously complained in this thread people were not responding to your post.  So, have the same respect for your peers.  I didn't write it for my health.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Though that's not my argument.  My argument is that characters with class levels may no longer use the "type" improvement table (they might possibly for monster improvements taken prior to taking a class).  The table itself specifies this.




I don't agree with your reading of this line:
_Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type._

You're reading it as "Once a creature has acquired a character class, it forevermore improves according to its class, not its type."

Consider the following analogous sentence:
"Note that if a customer purchases a Canadian product, he pays in Canadian dollars, not in US dollars."

If I purchase a Canadian product, I pay for that product in Canadian dollars.  If I subsequently buy a US product, am I still bound by that rule?  I'm a customer who has purchased a Canadian product; am I therefore required to pay for all subsequent purchases, be they US or otherwise, in Canadian dollars?

The restriction applies to the transaction involving the Canadian product, not for all time thereafter.

Similarly, when I, as a monster, acquire a character class, I improve according to the class, not my type.  If I gain a racial hit die, though, I improve according to the type, not my class.  The clarification applies to the improvement resulting from the acquisition of a character class, not to any and all improvements that occur subsequent to said acquisition regardless of their nature.

-Hyp.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> So you're arguing that once a Dragon takes a level of Sorcerer, it can no longer age?




Good catch, until you look closer.  

With the rules as written, that's correct (seems at first like an odd result, doesn't it?).

But... dragons do not advance by class.  Their advancement is specified as being by age category not by class (look at the entry for any dragon).

You could run a dragon under the "Monsters as Races" rules, but that's not generally recommended by the rules 

"Creatures ... who are so different from other PCs that they disrupt the campaign should not be used. Some creatures have strange innate abilities or great physical power, and thus are questionable at best as characters (except in high-level campaigns)."


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Okay, you get one point for making it a formula. But negative ten points for being totally irrelevant.
> 
> No, it wasn't, and it's still not (despite whatever you edited). The SRD quote below is simply a description of temporary hit points -- which I quote as part of my argument. Trust me, it's not going to win you this argument.
> 
> ...




Edit: Nevermind


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I don't agree with your reading of this line:
> _Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type._
> 
> You're reading it as "Once a creature has acquired a character class, it forevermore improves according to its class, not its type."
> ...




I'll agree that that's a *possible* interpretation.  I think the way it is written, and the section in which it is presented, means they assume that once you take a class for a monster that it advances only in that class and no longer gets any more racial hit die, as it no doubt true is nearly all cases.  I think it is meant mostly for setting up a monster for encounters, not for taking one through an entire life cycle in actual gaming time, but that's just conjecture.

In any case, that *is* my strongest evidence, and I very much appreciate you weighing in on it.

I did have other evidence backing up my position, too.  Notably, for "normal" PCs, racial hit die is *replaced* by class levels, so they have no racial hit die to gain at all.  At least not by core - there is some sort of optional rule dealing with racial hit die for normal PCs, I think, but I do not think that really is at issue here and, besides, I don't really know how those extra rules work, so I find it hard to discuss.  (Is that racial paragons where you take a level as a racial paragon?  Is that it?  I don't recall)


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Notably, for "normal" PCs, the racial hit die is *replaced* by class levels, so they have no racial hit die to gain at all.  At least not by core - there is some sort of optional rule dealing with racial hit die for normal PCs, I think, but I do not think that really is at issue here and, besides, I don't really know how those extra rules work, so I find it hard to discuss.




It's for creatures with one racial hit die.  Any creature with more than one racial hit die, 'normal' or not, doesn't replace any.

They're not really extra or optional rules; if the race has more than one racial hit die, the PC will have some racial hit dice.

-Hyp.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Between those _bonus_ hit dice, and the bonus hit dice granted by Inspire Greatness?



 ... are you looking for an answer other than "yes, correct, exactly: that is indeed what I said"?

- - -

Here, let me repost the argument that I'm still waiting for you to answer. It's far better than this quibbling over the word "bonus".

Reposted from page one:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.




Basically, there are three possibilities: 
A/ the features listed by the text are the full extent of what the bonus HD grant; or 
B/ the features listed are explanatory, and mere examples of what the bonus HD grant; or
C/ the features listed are extensions, and are in addition to what the bonus HD grant.

We can rule out C, because both the first feature ("d10s") and the last feature ("... count as regular HD") specifically modify the hit dice. So it's either a case of truly terrible editing, or all the elements in between are also intended to apply to the bonus HD.

B can be ruled out due to the first two clauses: that the bonus HD grant d10s (which are not the hit die type for most classes, nor are they the hit die type for humanoids); but more damningly by the second clause, that the hit points provided by these bonus HD are described as temporary. Hit dice do not grant temporary hit points, they grant regular hit points. Let's look at that passage more carefully: 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice)



 The parenthetical makes it clear that the "temporary" modifier applies to the HP provided by the bonus HD -- that is, it explicitly precludes the possibility that the temporary HP are a separate effect from the bonus HD. (We'd determined that already, but confirmation is always nice.)

Thus, by elimination, the only rational explanation left is A.

Cheers, -- N


PS: Here's another argument for my interpretation, though it's common sense and not based on any strict reading of the RAW. Here's how it goes: *what do you expect Hit Dice to grant*? The answer is: *BAB, saves and hit points*. Now look what Inspire Greatness explicitly grants: an attack bonus, a bonus to a save, and some temporary hit points. There's no need to try to read any extra benefits in, because they're already covered.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> It's for creatures with one racial hit die.  Any creature with more than one racial hit die, 'normal' or not, doesn't replace any.
> 
> They're not really extra or optional rules; if the race has more than one racial hit die, the PC will have some racial hit dice.
> 
> -Hyp.




Sure.  I meant there are some optional rules for extra human (elf, etc.) racial hit die, I think.

The rules do not seem to make much of an allowance for a monster to gain class levels and *then* gain racial hit die.  Depending upon one's reading, this may or may not actaully be prohibited by the rules as written.  I certainly do not think it was anticipated.

Anyway, in the case of normal PHB races, there is no allowance for racial hit die at all.  They advance by class level and that's it.  At least not by core rules.  Maybe some supplement added some rules for this, but it is not the norm for sure.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> ...Basically, there are three possibilities:
> A/ the features listed by the text are the full extent of what the bonus HD grant; or
> B/ the features listed are explanatory, and mere examples of what the bonus HD grant; or
> C/ the features listed are extensions, and are in addition to what the bonus HD grant.
> ...




Even if the answer is "A," that does not answer whether the hit points granted are actual "temporaray hit points" as per the actual defintion of temporary hit points, or whether these are some sort of "special" temporary hit points that are healable because they come from bonus HD and it was just a terrible editing job by using a technical term in a generic way (gee, *that* hasn't happened anywhere else in the rules , has it?!?).


----------



## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Even if the answer is "A," that does not answer whether the hit points granted are actual "temporaray hit points" as per the actual defintion of temporary hit points, or whether these are some sort of "special" temporary hit points that are healable because they come from bonus HD and it was just a terrible editing job by using a technical term in a generic way (gee, *that* hasn't happened anywhere else in the rules , has it?!?).



 When they are in danger of using a technical term in a generic way, it's their job to make it unambiguous. For an example of how they go about this, turn to the class immediately before Bard, and look at its major class feature.

Alternately, look up "temporary hit points" and see the note about Constitution changes.

There are plenty of words they could have used other than "temporary": extra, bonus, transient, ephemeral, evanescent, additional, and special all leap to mind immediately. They didn't. They used the exact phrase "temporary hit points".

Because "temporary hit points" is a term of art with a glossary definition all its own, it should always be looked at as conforming to its glossary definition, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. It's just not up for grabs -- no more than you could try to claim any particular instance of "Will save" indicates an intention to save in the future.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> When they are in danger of using a technical term in a generic way, it's their job to make it unambiguous. ...




Quite right. Too bad they do not do so well at this.  A technical term is frequently used in a generic sense in many places throughout the rules.  Many previous rules discussions have revolved around such issues.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> Alternately, look up "temporary hit points" and see the note about Constitution changes.




That's part of the confusion here.  Some of these "temporary hit points" are from CON, whicvn is most unsual and potentially confusing.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> There are plenty of words they could have used other than "temporary": extra, bonus, transient, ephemeral, evanescent, additional, and special all leap to mind immediately. They didn't. They used the exact phrase "temporary hit points".




Too true.  that, in and of itself, does not mean they chose the correct word,



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> Because "temporary hit points" is a term of art with a glossary definition all its own, it should always be looked at as conforming to its glossary definition, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. It's just not up for grabs -- no more than you could try to claim any particular instance of "Will save" indicates an intention to save in the future.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Wouldn't that be nice if we could do that?  But "temporary hit points" based upon Bonus HD with Con Bonus counted (as usual for HD) are very strange.   Maybe they really did mean "temporary hit points," which, I guess, would mean that the value of the points would not change if your Con went up or down.  But, since the source of those points is Bonus HD with Con Bonus applied, they really *should* change with Con changes, which would imply that they would be healable like regular hit points.

So....

I'd say everyone is correct as far as how they treat these "Temporaray Hit Points."  As my signature says, "Yes, there can be more than one right answer to a rules question! It can be an exercise in futility to attempt to apply a great deal of precision to an imprecise set of rules."


----------



## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that be nice if we could do that?  But "temporary hit points" based upon Bonus HD with Con Bonus counted (as usual for HD) are very strange.



 So what? Seriously, why is this such a big deal? Let me ask by analogy. Here's the definition of Dexterity: 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Dexterity (Dex)
> 
> Dexterity measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance. This ability is the most important one for rogues, but it’s also high on the list for characters who typically wear light or medium armor (rangers and barbarians) or no armor at all (monks, wizards, and sorcerers), and for anyone who wants to be a skilled archer.
> 
> ...



 Note how Dexterity modifies your ranged attack rolls and not your melee attack rolls.

Now let's consider a PC with the feat Weapon Finesse. Suddenly, a wizard casts _cat's grace_ on him! *Does his newly increased Dexterity give him a bonus to melee attack rolls, even though melee attacks are not mentioned as a benefit in the definition of Dexterity?* Yes, because they are mentioned in the more specific text of Weapon Finesse. Same thing here. Specific text (in the description of Inspire Greatness) trumps general text.



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> Maybe they really did mean "temporary hit points," which, I guess, would mean that the value of the points would not change if your Con went up or down.



 Why shouldn't the value go up or down as your Con goes up or down? IMHO they are "temporary hit points" which depend on your Con score, because that's what the text says they are. So if your Con goes up, you get more. If your Con goes down, some disappear.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Basically, there are three possibilities:
> A/ the features listed by the text are the full extent of what the bonus HD grant; or
> B/ the features listed are explanatory, and mere examples of what the bonus HD grant; or
> C/ the features listed are extensions, and are in addition to what the bonus HD grant.




How about D - the general rules for hit dice apply, unless overridden by a detail in the text?

That's how the rules in general work everywhere else.  We don't need to reiterate all the rules for Alternate Form under the Lycanthrope description.  If we choose to reiterate some of them - like the body reverting to original form when killed, but severed parts remaining unchanged - that doesn't invalidate all the other rules for alternate form.  And any places where the lycanthrope's Alternate Form differs from the standard - like physical ability scores - override the general rule, again without invalidating all the other rules for alternate form.




> PS: Here's another argument for my interpretation, though it's common sense and not based on any strict reading of the RAW. Here's how it goes: *what do you expect Hit Dice to grant*? The answer is: *BAB, saves and hit points*. Now look what Inspire Greatness explicitly grants: an attack bonus, a bonus to a save, and some temporary hit points. There's no need to try to read any extra benefits in, because they're already covered.




Base attack bonus?  Base save bonus?  Skill points?  Feats?  Ability score increases?

Inspire Greatness grants an attack bonus.  Hit dice grant base attack bonus.
Inspire Greatness grants a bonus to a particular save.  Hit dice grant base save bonus, to all saves.
Inspire Greatness grants hit dice.  Hit dice grant base attack bonus; base save bonus, to all saves; skill points; feats; ability score increases.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> When they are in danger of using a technical term in a generic way, it's their job to make it unambiguous.




See "your next action".

-Hyp.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> How about D - the general rules for hit dice apply, unless overridden by a detail in the text?



 That's actually one of the choices. It's C. I have already answered this one, and would prefer not to have to paste the specific counter-argument a third time. Would you mind addressing the counter-argument already in the post? Thanks.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Base attack bonus?  Base save bonus?  Skill points?  Feats?  Ability score increases?



 You forgot hit points, which I list. Not all hit dice provide skill points or feats. (The average ability increase provided by +2 hit dice is +0.5, and D&D rounds down, so that's +0.)

But again, remember that final argument is explicitly *not*, not, not based on the letter of the rules, and thus quoting the rules at it won't help. Ignore it if you wish; it's there for those who think intuitively and wish to reconcile expectations about hit dice with the effects of Inspire Greatness.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> That's actually one of the choices. It's C.




No, it's not.  You say "C can't be true, because it says d10, which is a change, not an extension".

Again, consider the Lycanthrope's alternate form.

It contains change: physical ability scores.
It contains repetition: reversion on death.
It contains extension: specifies a standard action, which the general ability does not.
And it contains inheritance: everything about the general ability which isn't contradicted.

So let's apply your A, B, and C:
A/ the features listed by the lycanthrope text are the full extent of what the alternate form ability does; or 
B/ the features listed are explanatory, and mere examples of what the alternate form ability does; or
C/ the features listed are extensions, and are in addition to what the alternate form ability does.

By your logic, it's not C, because the effect on physical ability scores modifies Alternate Form.  It's not B for the same reason.  Which leaves A, the lycanthrope text is the full extent of what alternate form does... so clauses like "_Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space_" don't apply, since they're a general rule, not a specific rule.

Under D, though, both the general rules can apply, and the specific rules, and the specific take precedence where there's a contradiction.  So the general rule about physical ability scores is overwritten, but the general rule about gear falling off applies normally.

Under D, the bonus hit dice being d10s overrides the general rule for die size, without invalidating the rest of the rules for hit dice.  The bonus hit dice counting as regular hit dice with regard to spells repeats the general rule that hit dice count with regard to spells, without invalidating the rest of the rules for hit dice.  And all the other rules for hit dice which aren't contradicted or repeated apply normally... because they're hit dice.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> (The average ability increase provided by +2 hit dice is +0.5, and D&D rounds down, so that's +0.)




The average modifier increase provided by +1 to an ability score is +0.5, and D&D rounds down, so that's +0.

... but that's not how it works!  We don't add the _average_ modifier increase... we add the actual modifier increase, based on the original score and the final score!  If our ability score increases from 10 to 11, the modifier stays the same.  If our ability score increases from 11 to 12, the modifier goes up by 1.  The average modifier increase is irrelevant.

Same with hit dice.  If hit dice increase from 5 to 7?  No ability score increase.  If hit dice increase from 6 to 8?  One ability score increases by 1.  The "average ability increase" might be of statistical interest, but has no effect on the calculation.

-Hyp.


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## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> No, it's not.  You say "C can't be true, because it says d10, which is a change, not an extension".



 You may be thinking of someone else's argument... or perhaps you're looking at B, to which that would have been a more valid counter.

My claim regarding C is that the first clause ("d10s") and the last clause ("these bonus HD count ...") explicitly modify the bonus hit dice. Thus, we have either a case of truly terrible editing, or all the elements in between are also intended to apply to the bonus HD. (This should sound familiar.)

If that's granted, then we look at the "temporary hit points" clause, and we notice that actual hit dice do not grant "temporary hit points". Unless, of course, we decide to deliberately ignore a strict reading of "temporary hit points" while insisting on a strict reading of "bonus hit dice"... but that would be hypocrisy. So let's not do that.

Anyway. Now you can counter the right argument. Then I'll defend it.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> If that's granted, then we look at the "temporary hit points" clause, and we notice that actual hit dice do not grant "temporary hit points". Unless, of course, we decide to deliberately ignore a strict reading of "temporary hit points" while insisting on a strict reading of "bonus hit dice"... but that would be hypocrisy. So let's not do that.




So you're instead ignoring "bonus hit dice" while insisting on a strict reading of "temporary hit points"?

But let's assume, for a moment, that these are hit dice which grant, unlike normal hit dice, temporary hit points.  In much the same way that a lycanthrope's alternate form grants, unlike normal alternate form, ability score modifiers rather than ability scores.

How does a change to the type of hit points granted by the hit dice invalidate all the other rules for hit dice not altered by the text?

These are hit dice which, unlike the general rule for hit dice, grant temporary hit points (change); which, possibly unlike the creature's normal hit dice, are d10s (change); and which count as regular hit dice with regard to spells (repetition of general rule).  Nothing else is addressed; therefore nothing else about these hit dice differs from the general rules for hit dice.

-Hyp.


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## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> So you're instead ignoring "bonus hit dice" while insisting on a strict reading of "temporary hit points"?



 Ignoring? No, good sir, I'm interpreting! There's only room for interpretation in one of those quoted terms, and I'll show you why.

Here's one definition of "bonus hit dice": 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Bonus HD
> 
> Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses. A special mount’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.



 ... and here's another: 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.



 Note two things: first, that every instance of "hit dice" in the second is preceded by the modifier "bonus", and second, that last clause: "*The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice*..." which implies they are *not* regular Hit Dice.

In contrast, the Bonus HD provided to a Paladin's mount *are* explicitly the same as regular Hit Dice.

When there's a conflict between a certainty and an uncertainty, the certainty wins.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> How does a change to the type of hit points granted by the hit dice invalidate all the other rules for hit dice not altered by the text?
> 
> These are hit dice which, unlike the general rule for hit dice, grant temporary hit points (change); which, possibly unlike the creature's normal hit dice, are d10s (change); and which count as regular hit dice with regard to spells (repetition of general rule).  Nothing else is addressed; therefore nothing else about these hit dice differs from the general rules for hit dice.



 Regular Hit Dice do not grant competence bonuses to attack rolls or fortitude saves. Basically, out of the three things that every regular hit die grants, these bonus hit dice handle all three differently.

Contrast with a definition that's actually clear: 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses.



 I don't see how you can consider these two effects, though both named "bonus", to be all that similar.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Regular Hit Dice do not grant competence bonuses to attack rolls or fortitude saves.




Neither do bonus hit dice!  The competence bonus to attack rolls and to fortitude saves is granted by Inspire Greatness, not by the bonus hit dice.



> I don't see how you can consider these two effects, though both named "bonus", to be all that similar.




They're both hit dice, and we know what hit dice provide.

-Hyp.


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## Elethiomel (Apr 22, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Good catch, until you look closer.
> 
> With the rules as written, that's correct (seems at first like an odd result, doesn't it?).
> 
> ...




So in a high-level campaign, a dragon who is a character can take a level of sorcerer and then stop aging?


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## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Neither do bonus hit dice!  The competence bonus to attack rolls and to fortitude saves is granted by Inspire Greatness, not by the bonus hit dice.



 So you're ignoring the content of point C. That's not granted. The whole passage refers to the hit dice -- which are contrasted against regular hit dice.

In the Special Mount's passage, his "bonus hit dice" are equated with regular hit dice.

The difference in language and content is not minor.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> They're both hit dice, and we know what hit dice provide.



 We know what regular or normal hit dice provide. You can't take a hard line on "bonus hit dice" and simultaneously ask for a fuzzy interpretation of "temporary hit points", because the former is not well defined while the latter is. That's the point of B.

"Bonus hit dice" are not a term of art, though regular "hit dice" certainly are. If they'd omitted the modifier "bonus" from any instance of "hit dice" you'd have a chance for a case, but here (unlike the Paladin's special mount) they do not.

We most emphatically do not know what "bonus hit dice" provide, and that's why every time they come up, we get a passage explaining the benefit provided.

Cheers, -- N


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## Artoomis (Apr 22, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> So in a high-level campaign, a dragon who is a character can take a level of sorcerer and then stop aging?




Well, strictly speaking, maybe so, but, obviously, the rules break down a bit when doing things this unusual.  Anytime one ignores the "advancement" line in a creatures' description one has to assume that one may need to adjust the rules some place.

However, given that a dragon ages slowly (25 years as a Juvenile, 50 years as a Young Adult) and that the typical D&D adventuring career is only a few years or so, this is really not much of an issue.

Also, as a matter of balance and fair play, allowing a PC dragon to have a full adventuring career as a classed character and then also improve dramatically by aging is a bit... unbalancing.

So, lets cease arguing unsual cases, as things that are very unusual often need to have special handling to make it all be balanced, fair and make sense.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> The whole passage refers to the hit dice -- which are contrasted against regular hit dice.



 You know what? I take part of this back. I agree with you that the competence bonus to attack and Fortitude saves can be legitimately read as not arising from the "bonus hit dice" benefit. Consider "whole passage" redacted; it's inaccurate and unnecessary.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 22, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> We know what regular or normal hit dice provide. You can't take a hard line on "bonus hit dice" and simultaneously ask for a fuzzy interpretation of "temporary hit points", because the former is not well defined while the latter is. That's the point of B.




Note that in my latest post, I'm offering a strict reading of 'temporary hit points', under D.

-Hyp.


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## Nifft (Apr 23, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> These are hit dice which, unlike the general rule for hit dice, grant temporary hit points (change); which, possibly unlike the creature's normal hit dice, are d10s (change); and which count as regular hit dice with regard to spells (repetition of general rule).  Nothing else is addressed; therefore nothing else about these hit dice differs from the general rules for hit dice.



 Except they're not. You're insisting on reading "hit dice" while ignoring the modifier "bonus". This is equivalent to reading "hit points" while ignoring the modifier "temporary".

In the case of the Paladin's mount, this ignorance makes sense, because in the description the term "bonus" is often omitted -- the Paladin's mount's benefit uses "extra" instead, and equates the bonus HD with regular HD in many ways.

However, in the case of Inspire Greatness, the modifier is never omitted. We are not free to chop it off and pretend only the base term applies.

The fact that Inspire Courage's bonus hit dice only count as regular hit dice in one case (spells that check HD) is damnation, not confirmation. Confirmation looks like this: 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses. A special mount’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.




The full benefits of Inspire Greatness are:
- 2 "bonus hit dice", which are not defined, and of no benefit in themselves
- +2d10 +2xCon temporary hit points
- +2 competence bonus to attack
- +1 competence bonus to Fort save
- the two "bonus hit dice" count as regular hit dice against spells

... and that's all. If you can find an instance of "hit dice" which is not preceded by "bonus", you'll have a case.

Cheers, -- N


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## Kraydak (Apr 23, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> It's for creatures with one racial hit die.  Any creature with more than one racial hit die, 'normal' or not, doesn't replace any.
> 
> They're not really extra or optional rules; if the race has more than one racial hit die, the PC will have some racial hit dice.
> 
> -Hyp.




As a (very) silly side note, a normal PC, under Inspire Greatness, explicitly has more than one hit die.  It reads to me like this (somewhat) retroactively negates the hit die exchange, granting, howsoever one reads the rest of Inspire Greatness bonus HD, humanoid 1!


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## Artoomis (Apr 23, 2008)

Kraydak said:
			
		

> As a (very) silly side note, a normal PC, under Inspire Greatness, explicitly has more than one hit die.  It reads to me like this (somewhat) retroactively negates the hit die exchange, granting, howsoever one reads the rest of Inspire Greatness bonus HD, humanoid 1!




No, you have to read the "1 HD exchange" note in context - the context being how one modifies creatures in the MM.  In that context, they are referring to creatures with a MM entry of 1 HD.

Much of the confusion here (in this whole discussion) results from ignoring context when reading individual lines in the rules.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 23, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Much of the confusion here (in this while discussion) results from ignoring context when reading individual lines in the rules.



 Yeah. If you bring "context" and "intent" into a rules discussion, a whole lot of insanity evaporates.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 23, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> In the case of the Paladin's mount, this ignorance makes sense, because in the description the term "bonus" is often omitted -- the Paladin's mount's benefit uses "extra" instead, and equates the bonus HD with regular HD in many ways.




And so we have precedent that shows that 'bonus hit dice' is a way of describing hit dice that are added above one's normal complement.  The phrase isn't a term of art; rather, 'bonus' is an adjective applied to the term of art, 'hit dice'.

-Hyp.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 23, 2008)

Triple post.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 23, 2008)

Triple Post


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 23, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> And so we have precedent that shows that 'bonus hit dice' is a way of describing hit dice that are added above one's normal complement.  The phrase isn't a term of art; rather, 'bonus' is an adjective applied to the term of art, 'hit dice'.
> 
> -Hyp.




Exactly.

Also, I think each and every instance of "bonus" or "extra" hit dice comes with rules for what happens when you get these "extra" or "bonus" hit dice.

The two things under debate (I think) are:

1.  When talking about _Inspire Greatness_ are the "temporary hit points" meant to be used as the glossary defintion or is the phrase being used more generically here because the extra hit points come from having extra hit dice.

I vote "generic" becuase they come from hit dice, but I can readily see the validity of the opposing argument, so I think there are two correct answers.

2.  Are there any non-stated benefits to the _Inspire Greatness_ "Bonus Hit Die?"

I vote "no" because PCs do not (normally) gain features based upon HD, they gain them based upon level.  No stat boost, no feats, no skill points. etc.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 23, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Yeah. If you bring "context" and "intent" into a rules discussion, a whole lot of insanity evaporates.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




"Intent" can be tricky, but context is usually reasonably straight forward.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 23, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> I vote "no" because PCs do not (normally) gain features based upon HD, they gain them based upon level.




Any PC who gains hit dice gains features based on them.

-Hyp.


----------



## ardentmoth (Apr 23, 2008)

HD and HD-based features are biconditional. Hyp and the gang are right again.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 23, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> And so we have precedent that shows that 'bonus hit dice' is a way of describing hit dice that are added above one's normal complement.  The phrase isn't a term of art; rather, 'bonus' is an adjective applied to the term of art, 'hit dice'.



 The Bard's text is actually the preceding definition. If you insist that the three "bonus hit dice" effects are related, you must view the Bard's as without precedent, and instead consider the others mere modifications of it. I'm afraid precedent doesn't help your case, and could probably be twisted around to hurt it (e.g.: "Why must the Paladin's mount text go to such trouble to explain that the mount's bonus HD are the same as actual HD? Because the Bard's bonus HD are practically unrelated, of course!"). Sorry.

We have one instance of "Bonus HD" being used to indicate a thing that is equivalent to actual hit dice; we have another separate instance where "bonus hit dice" is used to indicate something undefined, except for one feature that is incongruent to actual hit dice, and one case where they can be counted as regular hit dice.

We have no glossary entry for "bonus hit dice". It's not a term of art (you're right about that), but that doesn't imply we must either consider all definitions identical, nor that we must default to the definition of the contained term. (For an example of a "contained term" being invalid, consider the shadow's "incorporeal touch" attack. "Incorporeal" is a term of art, "touch attack" is a term of art, but "incorporeal touch attack" is not a term of art, nor is it a "touch attack" under some conditions.)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Slaved (Apr 23, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> The Bard's text is actually the preceding definition. If you insist that the three "bonus hit dice" effects are related, you must view the Bard's as without precedent, and instead consider the others mere modifications of it. I'm afraid precedent doesn't help your case, and could probably be twisted around to hurt it (e.g.: "Why must the Paladin's mount text go to such trouble to explain that the mount's bonus HD are the same as actual HD? Because the Bard's bonus HD are practically unrelated, of course!"). Sorry.
> 
> We have one instance of "Bonus HD" being used to indicate a thing that is equivalent to actual hit dice; we have another separate instance where "bonus hit dice" is used to indicate something undefined, except for one feature that is incongruent to actual hit dice, and one case where they can be counted as regular hit dice.
> 
> ...




The lack of Text explaining every Function of Hit Dice for Inspire Greatness does not demonstrate a lack of Function for the Hit Dice. The Writers could have Intended for the Bardic Music Ability Inspire Greatness to not give all of the Abilities that come with Hit Dice but made a poor decision to use the Term Hit Dice that carries its own baggage or forgot to add on a sentence explaining that the Hit Dice do not Function as Normal Hit Dice. None of that Contradicts what Inspire Greatness says.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 23, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Any PC who gains hit dice gains features based on them.
> 
> -Hyp.




No...

Characters gain LEVELS and LEVEL features.  Hit dice happen to be one of those thigns you gain with a level.  Features dependent upon hit dice are described for monsters in that special monster improvement table.  All that stuff happens with leveling by class when you are improving with class levels.

When one levels up from level 3 to 4 one gains a hit die, but one does NOT gain features based upon that hit die, oen gains features based upon LEVEL.

The monster improvment section also says once you gain levels, you do nor improve by hit die.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 23, 2008)

ardentmoth said:
			
		

> HD and HD-based features are biconditional. Hyp and the gang are right again.




No.  When you gain a level you gain a HD, but not HD features.  I suppose one could even make a character class where one did not gain a HD, but that would be more than a little odd.


----------



## Slaved (Apr 23, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> No.  When you gain a level you gain a HD, but not HD features.  I suppose one could even make a character class where one did not gain a HD, but that would be more than a little odd.




I am still having a hard time understanding your Position. Can you tell me what a Rule would have to say in order to Prove to you that Monster Characters and Player Characters follow the same Rules?


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 23, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> No...
> 
> Characters gain LEVELS and LEVEL features.




Yet if a character acquires a hit die from somewhere that is not a class level, he's not going to gain class level features; rather, he'll gain the benefits of greater hit dice.



> When one levels up from level 3 to 4 one gains a hit die, but one does NOT gain features based upon that hit die, oen gains features based upon LEVEL.




Right.  But if you gain a hit die that's not class-related, you can't look to the class features to determine how you improve.



> The monster improvment section also says once you gain levels, you do nor improve by hit die.




The monster improvement section says that a monster who acquires a character class improves according to that class, not his type.  It doesn't say he can never improve by type thereafter.

-Hyp.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 23, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Characters gain LEVELS and LEVEL features.  Hit dice happen to be one of those thigns you gain with a level.



 After reading this carefully, it actually makes sense.

For example: a Savage Progression. 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 23, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> The Bard's text is actually the preceding definition.




Because it's the first one to appear in the book?  That's an artefact of alphabetical order, not a hierarchy of relevance!  Detect Chaos appears before Detect Evil, but it refers you to the spell that appears later in the book to get the details.



> If you insist that the three "bonus hit dice" effects are related, you must view the Bard's as without precedent, and instead consider the others mere modifications of it.




Why?  You're saying that bonus hit dice aren't hit dice, and the paladin text shows that they are.  The bard text's failure to clarify this doesn't mean that it isn't demonstrated elsewhere.

If "temporary hit points" in the bard text inherit definition from "temporary hit points" described later in the book, why not the "bonus hit dice" in the bard text?

I'm not saying that the bard's bonus hit dice behave identically to the paladin's mount's bonus hit dice.  I'm saying that the paladin text shows that bonus hit dice are a form of hit dice, and thus the bard's bonus hit dice follow the rules for hit dice (not necessarily mount's hit dice), except where specified otherwise.



> We have no glossary entry for "bonus hit dice". It's not a term of art (you're right about that), but that doesn't imply we must either consider all definitions identical, nor that we must default to the definition of the contained term. (For an example of a "contained term" being invalid, consider the shadow's "incorporeal touch" attack. "Incorporeal" is a term of art, "touch attack" is a term of art, but "incorporeal touch attack" is not a term of art, nor is it a "touch attack" under some conditions.)




I disagree that "incorporeal touch attack" is not a term of art.  It is not a touch attack, and it has specific meaning as a phrase.

-Hyp.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 23, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I am still having a hard time understanding your Position. Can you tell me what a Rule would have to say in order to Prove to you that Monster Characters and Player Characters follow the same Rules?




That's a tough question - I guess I would need to see a clear rule that overides the character advancement and monster improvement rules.

Characters are presented as advancing (aka improving) solely by level (with some possible optional exceptions in expansion books)

Monsters improve by adding HD, adding templates OR adding levels.

There is absolutey no generic guidance in the rules for what might happen if a character were to gain some sort of non-class hit die.

The rules say characters improve by level, not hit die.  Under that scenario, I think that when granting a character some extra/bonus hit die by some mechanism (like Inspire Grteatness), the rules for what happens MUST be specified as there is NO general rule that would apply.

For monsters it is different, because rules exists for what happen when a monster gains a HD in the context of "imrpoving monsters,' and those HD improvement rules *specifically exclude* those who advance by class - especially for 1HD creatures (like all PHB PCs).


----------



## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Because it's the first one to appear in the book?  That's an artefact of alphabetical order, not a hierarchy of relevance!  Detect Chaos appears before Detect Evil, but it refers you to the spell that appears later in the book to get the details.



_Detect chaos_ references _detect evil_ because it says so, not because of any accidents. But that reference is irrelevant, because it cannot be called "precedence", which is the authority you'd tried to invoke.

*All* precedence is an "artefact" of some kind of ordering. That's not an invalidation. That's just what it means.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Why?  You're saying that bonus hit dice aren't hit dice, and the paladin text shows that they are.  The bard text's failure to clarify this doesn't mean that it isn't demonstrated elsewhere.



*Only if the terms are identical*. Since Bard has precedence, the burden is on you to show why the later re-definitions should override earlier definitions in the earlier context.

If you were right, this would be typical editing.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> If "temporary hit points" in the bard text inherit definition from "temporary hit points" described later in the book, why not the "bonus hit dice" in the bard text?



 ... are you seriously asking why the Paladin entry and the Glossary are treated differently? C'mon, man. You're way smarter than that.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I disagree that "incorporeal touch attack" is not a term of art.  It is not a touch attack, and it has specific meaning as a phrase.



 I'd agree that it's come to be one through discussions in places like this, but it's not defined as such in the SRD. None of the eight occurrences of "incorporeal touch attack" explain the term.

Also, the earlier occurrence of "typical" really means "atypically terrible".

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 24, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> ... are you seriously asking why the Paladin entry and the Glossary are treated differently? C'mon, man. You're way smarter than that.




Hit Dice are defined in the glossary.  I'm not saying that the Paladin entry defines [hit dice].  I'm saying that it shows that the phrase "bonus hit dice" refers to [hit dice], described by an adjective.

So "bonus hit dice" are bonus [hit dice], and thus the phrase "bonus hit dice" in the Bard text can refer to the definition of [hit dice] to determine what these hit dice, which are bonus, bestow.

-Hyp.


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## Artoomis (Apr 24, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Yet if a character acquires a hit die from somewhere that is not a class level, he's not going to gain class level features; rather, he'll gain the benefits of greater hit dice.




Well, no - the rules give NO guidance here, so it needs to be defined where it happens.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Right.  But if you gain a hit die that's not class-related, you can't look to the class features to determine how you improve.




Correct.  There are no rules for what happens, so it needs to be defined where it happens.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> The monster improvement section says that a monster who acquires a character class improves according to that class, not his type.  It doesn't say he can never improve by type thereafter.
> 
> -Hyp.




Actually, it does say that.

It say, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class..."

Whatever is past that first clause is all about what happens after the one-time, forever-changing event of acquiring a character class.  If you should happen to gain a bonus HD somehow later, that does not change the fact that you "acquired a character class"

Acquiring a character class is a binary pre-condition - either you have done it or you have not.  It is not conditional - like "improve according to class if it is gaining a level, but use type if is gaining a HD"

Nope.  It's a one-time event that forever changes the creature.  One of those changes is that it now improves by class, not type.

Has they chose to say something like, "Note that if a creature imroves by gaining a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type," well, that would be different.

Honestly I think, at the time this table was published:

1.  They never even considered one "improve a monster" by type, not class, once a class was given.  

2.  That anyone would even consider using this table for PCs.

Thus, the language was, perhaps, not as precisely unambiguous as it might have been.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Hit Dice are defined in the glossary.  I'm not saying that the Paladin entry defines [hit dice].  I'm saying that it shows that the phrase "bonus hit dice" refers to [hit dice], described by an adjective.
> 
> So "bonus hit dice" are bonus [hit dice], and thus the phrase "bonus hit dice" in the Bard text can refer to the definition of [hit dice] to determine what these hit dice, which are bonus, bestow.



 Okay, since you bring it up, let's check the glossary. 







			
				PHB Glossary said:
			
		

> *Hit Die/Dice (HD)*: In the singular form, a die rolled to generate hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice of creatures



 So going by the glossary definition, the two underlined terms are the extent of the benefits your PC would reap if you won this discussion.

No feats, no skill points, no base attack or save bonuses.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 24, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Okay, since you bring it up, let's check the glossary.  So going by the glossary definition, the two underlined terms are the extent of the benefits your PC would reap if you won this discussion.
> 
> No feats, no skill points, no base attack or save bonuses.




But just like in the glossary definition of Bonus or Dispel Check, the glossary is a quick reference that doesn't contain all the relevant detail.  ("Hit dice are defined in the glossary" was a foolish misstatement on my part - 'referenced', perhaps, would be better than 'defined'.)

Acquisition of feats and ability score increases is governed by total number of hit dice.  If you have 10 class levels, and 2 bonus hit dice, your total number of hit dice is 12, so you should have 5 feats from hit dice (1, 3, 6, 9, 12) and three ability score increases (4, 8, 12).



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> Well, no - the rules give NO guidance here...




Sure they do.  Just not in the PHB.



> Actually, it does say that.
> 
> It say, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class..."
> 
> Whatever is past that first clause is all about what happens after the one-time, forever-changing event of acquiring a character class.




Whatever is past that first clause is all about what happens as a result of the discrete event of acquiring a character class.  What happens after that is unrelated to that clause.



> Has they chose to say something like, "Note that if a creature imroves by gaining a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type," well, that would be different.




Had they chosen to say that, it would be the same as what they wrote, expressed in different words.

-Hyp.


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## Slaved (Apr 24, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> That's a tough question - I guess I would need to see a clear rule that overides the character advancement and monster improvement rules.
> 
> Characters are presented as advancing (aka improving) solely by level (with some possible optional exceptions in expansion books)
> 
> ...




This does not look to be Negatable. 

I will try with an Example I just found though!     

The Dungeon Master's Guide should discuss Terms as they relate to both Player Characters and Non Player Characters. When discussing Negative Levels the Dungeon Master's Guide refers only to Levels. When talking about the Condition of being Energy Drained it talks about Levels and Hit Dice interchangeably. The description of the Condition Section talks about Characters as does the Special Abilities Section.

Does a Level 10 Character who is being Buffed by Inspire Greatness and who has 9 Negative Levels instantly die if they gain 1 more Negative Level?


----------



## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> But just like in the glossary definition of Bonus or Dispel Check, the glossary is a quick reference that doesn't contain all the relevant detail.  ("Hit dice are defined in the glossary" was a foolish misstatement on my part - 'referenced', perhaps, would be better than 'defined'.)



 The benefit of Inspire Greatness and the description in the glossary (note my generosity in not saying "definition") agree, and cover the same two benefits. Why are we compelled to look in other sources? The two instances you claim as primary seem to be the exceptions, since they explicitly call out features not mentioned in the "precedent" (Bard's class ability) or in the Glossary.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Acquisition of feats and ability score increases is governed by total number of *normal, regular, actual* hit dice.



 Bold added by me, not to be disrespectful, but just to avoid repetition.

Cheers, -- N


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## moritheil (Apr 24, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> No.  When you gain a level you gain a HD, but not HD features.  I suppose one could even make a character class where one did not gain a HD, but that would be more than a little odd.




Savage Species has a few classes like that.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 24, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> ...
> Whatever is past that first clause is all about what happens as a result of the discrete event of acquiring a character class.  What happens after that is unrelated to that clause.
> ...-Hyp.




If that were so, then what happens, say, when gaining a second level in the class "acquired" one level ago?  This is not the discrete event of "acquiring a character class," so, by your own reasoning, everyone should advance by type for every advancement past the aquiring of the very first class level.

Clearly that's not the correct interpretation, right?

Gaining a level is not "acquiring a character class," so "acquiring a character class" can *only* refer the the *intial event* of "acquiring a character class."   In such a case, the sentence *only* makes sense if ever, after, the creature improves by class rather than by type.

In other words, once a creature finishes "acquiring a character class" (that is, gains its first level in a character class) the class advancement rules control improvement rather that the table about improving by type.

Now, if the sentence talked about "acquiring a character class *level*," I'd agree with you, but that's *not* what it says.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 24, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> This does not look to be Negatable.
> 
> I will try with an Example I just found though!
> 
> ...




Interesting.

Let's see...

Hmmm, if the negative levels were by spell effect, there is an excellent argument that he would not die until getting 12 total negative levels (an extra 2 to offset the bonus HD), since the HD explicity apply to spells.

I don't think the rules are prefectly clear here, but to avoid a weird result, I'd allow it to work the same way even if the negative levels were caused by creatures.   Note that gaining negative levels from, say, a vampire, is "Su" - not a spell, but still a magical effect, so I'd allow the HD to count.

This could be considered a generous ruling, perhaps, but I would not want the results to be different between spell-caused negative-levels and creature-caused "Supernatural" negative levels.  That would be too weird and, potentially, too hard to track (what if one had both sources of negative levels at once?!?)


----------



## Hypersmurf (Apr 24, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Why are we compelled to look in other sources?




Because there are rules governing hit dice to be found elsewhere.



> Bold added by me, not to be disrespectful, but just to avoid repetition.




What makes you say that bonus hit dice are not 'actual' hit dice?

What makes you say that feats and ability scores are only based on 'normal' hit dice?



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> If that were so, then what happens, say, when gaining a second level in the class "acquired" one level ago?




You follow the rules in the Player's Handbook for gaining a level in a character class, since you're gaining a level in a character class.

-Hyp.


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## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Because there are rules governing hit dice to be found elsewhere.



 Not relevant rules.

Check the PHB (not SRD) for the three instances of bonus hit dice. Two of them explicitly refer to the Monster Manual. Inspire Courage does not. Everything necessary to interpret it is right in the PHB.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> What makes you say that bonus hit dice are not 'actual' hit dice?
> 
> What makes you say that feats and ability scores are only based on 'normal' hit dice?



 Normal hit dice don't go away 30 seconds after some dude stops singing.

Regular hit dice don't need a note saying that they "count as regular hit dice" in special situations.

Actual hit dice count against your ECL, and impact how much XP you get for an encounter.

(Also there's the skills, feats, base saves, etc.)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 24, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> ...
> You follow the rules in the Player's Handbook for gaining a level in a character class, since you're gaining a level in a character class.
> 
> -Hyp.




Let's follow the logic about what the rules say about advancement/improvement, ignoring templates (as they are not relevant):

1.  A PC normally advances using the rules in the PHB.  That is, by class level.

2.  A monster may be "improved" by either adding HD or class levels.

3.  When increasing hit die to improve a monster, one uses the "Creature Improvement by Type" table.

4.  But, the table says that "if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type."  Thus, at least at the time it acquires a character class, it improves by type.

Now, what happens next?

Let's say the creature in question is a monster that improves by gaining a class level.  What happens is either:

A.  It advances by type because, at this time, it is not "acquiring a character class"  (Obviously cannot be true)

or

B.  It advances by class level because it previously "acquired a class level" so it improves according to its class, not its type.

I don't see how you can have any other choice, because one first has to go to the rules for improving a monster before one can end up in the PHB to look at class level advancement rules.  

Since these are the only two possibilities, choice "B" is the only one that applies and thus the rules must be read that, after acquiring a character class, a creature advances by level (only).  This, of course, makes perfect sense when taken in the context of only the MM and only thinking about advancing monsters to make them tougher, following only what is written in the monster's "advancement" line of the monster's entry.

Most monsters that can be advance by adding levels *only* advance by adding levels.  For the very few that also can increase non-class level HD, one would simply add any extra HD first, and then the class levels.

No provision was made for adding HD (Racial HD is the right term, I think) after adding class levels.

We know from the above that one cannot use the "Creature Improvement by Type" table for racial HD added after Class Levels have been acquired, so what do we do when extra HD get added somehow?  Why, we follow whatever rules are written in the same place that those "extra" or "bonus" HD are granted.  We certainly do not go back to the "Creature Improvement by Type" table, because that's not allowed.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 24, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Let's say the creature in question is a monster that improves by gaining a class level.  What happens is either:
> 
> A.  It advances by type because, at this time, it is not "acquiring a character class"  (Obviously cannot be true)
> 
> ...




"_If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multiclass characters.

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it._"

As a multiclass character, he can advance in any of his classes, or in a new class; his "monster class" is a favoured class, so by choosing this "monster class" in which to advance, he's advancing by type.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> Check the PHB (not SRD) for the three instances of bonus hit dice. Two of them explicitly refer to the Monster Manual. Inspire Courage does not. Everything necessary to interpret it is right in the PHB.




I'm not only talking about instances of 'bonus hit dice', but also instances of 'hit dice', of which bonus hit dice are a subset... as shown by the text of Paladin and Druid.

Not everything pertinent to 'hit dice' is in the PHB.



> Actual hit dice count against your ECL, and impact how much XP you get for an encounter.




What makes you think that for the duration of Inspire Greatness, your ECL is not increased by 2, since you have two more hit dice for that time?

-Hyp.


----------



## Artoomis (Apr 24, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> "_If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multiclass characters.
> 
> The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it._"




Again, out of context.  The full rule is:

*Starting Level of a Monster PC*
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. 



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> As a multiclass character, he can advance in any of his classes, or in a new class; his "monster class" is a favoured class, so by choosing this "monster class" in which to advance, he's advancing by type...-Hyp.




A normal Monster PC, if there such a thing as a "normal" monster PC, cannot advance in the "monster class" as no advancement is possible.  See my previous post.  To advance in the "monster class" would require using the table that, in turn, says it cannot be used.

However, even *if* we allow such prohibited advancement, it would not apply to single class characters who were not created from monsters.  A normal PC has no "monster class" to advance.

One cannot assume that all rules for monster PCs apply to other PCs, and, further, even at that, if one gained a uncharacterized HD (as in Inspire Greatness), how would one know which "class" to advance?  "Monster class" or some other class?  Or, heaven forbid, choose each time.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I'm not only talking about instances of 'bonus hit dice', but also instances of 'hit dice', of which bonus hit dice are a subset... as shown by the text of Paladin and Druid.



 And when the relevant information is found in a source outside the PHB, that source is named... as show by the text of Paladin and Druid.

Everything relevant to Inspire Greatness is found in the PHB.

Since "hit dice" *are* well defined in the PHB, the burden is on you to show that something other than the words "hit dice" require consultation of a source outside the PHB.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> What makes you think that for the duration of Inspire Greatness, your ECL is not increased by 2, since you have two more hit dice for that time?



 ("Begging the question", "NO U", etc.)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Elethiomel (Apr 24, 2008)

> Since "hit dice" *are* well defined in the PHB, the burden is on you to show that something other than the words "hit dice" require consultation of a source outside the PHB.



If that is the case, the PC wealth per level for PCs starting above level 1 chart in the DMG is also irrelevant to creating characters, since if you create a character there is nothing in the PHB that references anything else than the starting money chart at the beginning of the Equipment chapter.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> If that is the case, the PC wealth per level for PCs starting above level 1 chart in the DMG is also irrelevant to creating characters, since if you create a character there is nothing in the PHB that references anything else than the starting money chart at the beginning of the Equipment chapter.



 Did you even crack open your PHB?

"Alternatively, your DM can assign average starting gold..." is right above that chart. The wealth by level guidelines are guidelines for the DM to help him assign wealth. (Also, of course, they're guidelines and not rules.)

However, I will agree with you on one point: the wealthy by level guidelines are indeed irrelevant for many PCs.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Elethiomel (Apr 24, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Did you even crack open your PHB?



I resent that. Yes. Yes, I did.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> "Alternatively, your DM can assign average starting gold..." is right above that chart. The wealth by level guidelines are guidelines for the DM to help him assign wealth. (Also, of course, they're guidelines and not rules.)



It's still not a reference to the DMG.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> However, I will agree with you on one point: the wealthy by level guidelines are indeed irrelevant for many PCs.



Just as the stats for what you gain when you gain a Humanoid Hit Dice as a Bonus Hit Die from Inspire Greatness is irrelevant for many PCs.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> I resent that. Yes. Yes, I did.
> 
> It's still not a reference to the DMG.



 So far as I can tell, starting above 1st level isn't an option presented in the PHB. Would you mind citing the rules which would allow it at all?

Thanks, -- N


----------



## Elethiomel (Apr 24, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> So far as I can tell, starting above 1st level isn't an option presented in the PHB. Would you mind citing the rules which would allow it at all?




This is true. However, if my GM told me to make a 3rd level character for a new campaign, and specified "standard starting money", I would crack open my DMG, not my PHB, to find those starting money. That means that since I know there is more than 1 core book, I can reference things in other core books than the PHB while making a character without being explicitly told to.

This is a very valuable skill to have when reading rules. It means I can check spells in the PHB when told that a monster has a "spell-like ability", without the Monster Manual ever telling me that that is where spells are located. Likewise, I am able to check up definitions of "Hit Dice" in other places than the PHB because that is something my rules-reading experience tells me is likely to be well-defined in the Monster Manual.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> This is true. However, if my GM told me to make a 3rd level character for a new campaign, and specified "standard starting money"



 That's a result of your social contract with your DM. In my games, PCs start at 3rd level with 1,000 gp and no permanent magic items.



			
				Elethiomel said:
			
		

> This is a very valuable skill to have when reading rules. It means I can check spells in the PHB when told that a monster has a "spell-like ability", without the Monster Manual ever telling me that that is where spells are located. Likewise, I am able to check up definitions of "Hit Dice" in other places than the PHB because that is something my rules-reading experience tells me is likely to be well-defined in the Monster Manual.



 Look, if we're bringing "reasonable" in as a criteria, I'm going to win. It's not reasonable to change the ECL of a PC half way through a fight. The only hope for breaking Inspire Greatness was through strict rules application, as Hyp is attempting, but even that fails so far.

By the "reasonable" criteria, Inspire Greatness already addresses every major aspect of HD: it grants (an equivalent of) extra hit points, it grants an attack bonus, and it grants a bonus on saves. It even allows the PC to be treated as 2 levels higher for spells that care. Extra feats? Less XP? These things aren't mentioned in the text, and are frankly more trouble than they're worth.

You may have an intuitive grasp of what Hit Dice should mean, but IMHO you should pause and compare it with your intuitive grasp of how Bardic Music should work.

If you want to house rule that Inspire Greatness grants a bonus feat, do it. But do it as a house rule, on the basis that the bolded part here needs more beef: "A bard of 9th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire greatness in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet, *granting him or her extra fighting capability*." ... rather than on a misreading of the rules.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Elethiomel (Apr 24, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> That's a result of your social contract with your DM. In my games, PCs start at 3rd level with 1,000 gp and no permanent magic items.
> 
> Look, if we're bringing "reasonable" in as a criteria, I'm going to win. It's not reasonable to change the ECL of a PC half way through a fight. The only hope for breaking Inspire Greatness was through strict rules application, as Hyp is attempting, but even that fails so far.
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to "be reasonable", I'm trying to point out that if you didn't know to look up rules in other books than the one you're currently reading, you would have no way of knowing what "Spell like ability: Dominate Person at will (DC 18)" did.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to "be reasonable", I'm trying to point out that if you didn't know to look up rules in other books than the one you're currently reading, you would have no way of knowing what "Spell like ability: Dominate Person at will (DC 18)" did.



 Are you serious? "Spell-like ability" is defined in the glossary of both the Monster Manual and the PHB. The intro to the Monster Manual even tells you to look in the Glossary regarding spell-like abilities.

How exactly do you have "no way of knowing"?

 -- N


----------



## Elethiomel (Apr 24, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Are you serious? "Spell-like ability" is defined in the glossary of both the Monster Manual and the PHB. The intro to the Monster Manual even tells you to look in the Glossary regarding spell-like abilities.
> 
> How exactly do you have "no way of knowing"?
> 
> -- N



Oh, I'm sorry. Did you not read my previous post, the one you answered by "oh, you're trying to be reasonable"? Let me spell it out for you:

A spell-like ability works like a spell of the same name.

The glossary says nothing about where to look up spells.

Spells are listed in the PHB.

Nowhere in the MM does it say to look in the PHB to find how the spell that a spell-like ability works off of works, so you have no way of knowing how a spell-like ability of a certain description works if your assumption that you have to be explicitly told where to look for whatever rules you are currently reading holds water.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> Oh, I'm sorry. Did you not read my previous post, the one you answered by "oh, you're trying to be reasonable"? Let me spell it out for you:
> 
> A spell-like ability works like a spell of the same name.
> 
> ...



 You know that you have to look up spells, and you've already seen spells in Core Rulebook I (which comes before Core Rulebooks II and II). I'll invoke precedence here. Since spells are previously defined, and are not re-defined in the source you're looking at, you don't need to be told where to look for them.

In contrast, consider character wealth. You are explicitly told to look in the DMG for magic equipment. Why? Because the DMG comes after the PHB.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Elethiomel (Apr 24, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> You know that you have to look up spells, and you've already seen spells in Core Rulebook I (which comes before Core Rulebooks II and II). I'll invoke precedence here. Since spells are previously defined, and are not re-defined in the source you're looking at, you don't need to be told where to look for them.



I don't find that a compelling argument for "precedent".


----------



## Nifft (Apr 24, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> I don't find that a compelling argument for "precedent".



 Fine. If you need it spelled out, read page 5 of the Monster Manual. Specifically, the second sentence under "Reading the Entries".

Cheers, -- N


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## Artoomis (Apr 24, 2008)

Deleted.   No longer needed.

Mods may delete.


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## Desdichado (Apr 24, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Your remarks are treading the line, at least, of being personal attacks.



No they're not.  They're snarky in tone, no doubt, but at no point do they attack each other personally.

Seriously; a _personal_ attack, or an _ad hominem_ argument—which is almost the same thing—requires that one person impugn the other person involved directly.  As long as discussion stays on the arguments themselves, they are not personal attacks and they are not ad hominem arguments.

This post brought to you by a weary, pedantic jerk who is tired of seeing these two terms misused over and over again in a vain attempt to bail oneself out of an argument when someone is clearly in over their head, is clearly wrong and can't admit it, and falsely accuses the other of attacking him personally when he's clearly been attacking his argument instead (which is the correct way to debate rationally, I might add) all along.


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## Tewligan (Apr 24, 2008)

Hobo, could you please ease up on the personal attacks on Artoomis? Otherwise, I'm going to have to ask you to leave the thread. Thanks!


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## Desdichado (Apr 24, 2008)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Hobo, could you please ease up on the personal attacks on Artoomis? Otherwise, I'm going to have to ask you to leave the thread. Thanks!



Can we please lay off the ad hominems please?  That doesn't advance the discussion any.

kthxbye.


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## Umbran (Apr 24, 2008)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Can we please lay off the ad hominems please?  That doesn't advance the discussion any.
> 
> kthxbye.





The moderating staff does not appreciate use of color to make it look like you're moderating, when you aren't.  Doubly so when things are tense - you may think it is funny, but it generally only annoys people.   Please don't do it again.

_Ad hominem_ or not, the level of snark in here is unacceptably high.  We've had multiple complaints, and people who have left the thread because a few of you are overly aggressive and sarcastic.

Learn this - sarcasm, snark, and aggression do not influence people in a positive manner.  Someone who has snark leveled at them does not suddenly go, "Oh, that was witty, he must have been right in the first place!"  

If your intent is to actually exchange information, and perhaps even teach, you've chosen the wrong tools.  If your intent is to look witty to those who agree with you, or to embarrass or browbeat other posters into shutting up, you have come to the wrong message boards.

We expect civility and respect for each other, folks.  If you don't intend to show that, _don't post_.


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## Artoomis (Apr 24, 2008)

Can we get back on-topic?

I am very interested in reponses to my position on Inspire Greatness.


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## Slaved (Apr 24, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> Let's see...
> 
> ...




The Spells that give Negative Levels are not Hit Dice Dependent though. These Spells do Explain what Negative Levels do but that is not the same as a Spell such as Color Spray which is Hit Dice Dependent. I do not believe that Negative Levels become Non Functional in an Antimagic Field.


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## Artoomis (Apr 24, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> The Spells that give Negative Levels are not Hit Dice Dependent though. These Spells do Explain what Negative Levels do but that is not the same as a Spell such as Color Spray which is Hit Dice Dependent. I do not believe that Negative Levels become Non Functional in an Antimagic Field.




True enough.  I could see this being played out either way.


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## Slaved (Apr 25, 2008)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> True enough.  I could see this being played out either way.




I Assume that Either Way is whether or not the Character is Dead?

What do you think about the Terms Level and Hit Dice being used Interchangeably in the Dungeon Masters Guide?


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## Artoomis (Apr 25, 2008)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I Assume that Either Way is whether or not the Character is Dead?




Yep.  It all depends on how you view Hit Die vs. Spell Effects. 



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> What do you think about the Terms Level and Hit Dice being used Interchangeably in the Dungeon Masters Guide?




It's generally, but not always, true.


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## Elethiomel (Apr 25, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Fine. If you need it spelled out, read page 5 of the Monster Manual. Specifically, the second sentence under "Reading the Entries".
> 
> Cheers, -- N



Thanks, I had missed that when I skimmed that section. It does put a new light on things. I shall consult my books.


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## Nifft (Apr 25, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> Thanks, I had missed that when I skimmed that section. It does put a new light on things. I shall consult my books.



 If your findings agree with mine, you'll see that the MM explicitly "imports" the whole PHB and DMG early, while the PHB only "imports" bits of the MM and DMG within specific, limited scopes. For example, the Paladin's special mount includes reference to the MM, but Inspire Greatness does not.

So, IMHO, we should first look to the PHB (only) to see if we can satisfy all definitional constraints for Inspire Greatness -- and indeed, it seems we can.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 29, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> I'm of the opinion that the definitions in the PHB hold throughout the PHB, unless otherwise specified. "Hit Dice" has meaning in the PHB, but it's not the same meaning as they do in the Monster Manual.
> 
> You're of the opinion that, if there's a different definition in another book which can generate an absurd effect, that definition should trump the one in the primary source.




I'm of the opinion that rules apply across the game, not book-by-book.

For example, when the PHB says in the Brew Potion feat "See the Dungeon Master's Guide for rules on potions", this is a courtesy, not a rule-changing line.  The rules on potions in the Dungeon Master's Guide would apply to the Brew Potion feat whether or not this line was included; the line doesn't _make_ the rules apply, but rather, it informs the reader that there is more elsewhere.

If it were omitted, those rules would still exist and would still apply to potions; it's just that the reader would need to find them himself.

The rules in the Monster Manual and the DMG are still rules of D&D, even if the PHB doesn't include an invitation for you to go looking for them.

The PHB isn't "importing" rules from the DMG; it doesn't need to, as they already exist.  The PHB occasionally helps you to find those rules.

-Hyp.


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## Artoomis (Apr 29, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I'm of the opinion that rules apply across the game, not book-by-book.
> 
> For example, when the PHB says in the Brew Potion feat "See the Dungeon Master's Guide for rules on potions", this is a courtesy, not a rule-changing line.  The rules on potions in the Dungeon Master's Guide would apply to the Brew Potion feat whether or not this line was included; the line doesn't _make_ the rules apply, but rather, it informs the reader that there is more elsewhere.
> 
> ...




I wholeheartedly agree.  You are still wrong about the Bonus Hit Dice, though, as i have proven above.    Of course, I do not expect anyone to change his/her mind about this at this point.


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## Nifft (Apr 29, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I'm of the opinion that rules apply across the game, not book-by-book.



 The PHB definition of hit dice would be terribly out of place in the Monster Manual. Of course, you'd prefer it only worked the other way, but I hope you can see that it wouldn't work only one way.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> For example, when the PHB says in the Brew Potion feat "See the Dungeon Master's Guide for rules on potions", this is a courtesy, not a rule-changing line.



 Where do you get that idea? The rules actually say something, and now you're claiming that they don't mean it?



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> The rules in the Monster Manual and the DMG are still rules of D&D, even if the PHB doesn't include an invitation for you to go looking for them.



 The rules of D&D have always been different between players and DMs. Monsters have CRs; PCs have ECLs. Wealth-by-level is not relevant for NPCs unless they come under permanent PC influence.

The rules in the PHB are not a proper subset of the rules of D&D. This is one of the cases where they most blatantly aren't.

The PHB was written to be as self-contained as possible. I think the designers did a reasonably good job of it.

Cheers, -- N


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## Nifft (Apr 29, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I'm of the opinion that rules apply across the game, not book-by-book.



 Okay, so specifically: what's the Encounter Level of an Adult Red Dragon (CR 15) and a Human Necromancer 17 (CR 17)?

Now what's the Encounter Level if the Dragon has taken the feat "Leadership"?

Thanks, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 29, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> The PHB definition of hit dice would be terribly out of place in the Monster Manual.




No, it wouldn't; it would merely be incomplete.  The PHB rules for hit dice, in conjunction with the Monster Manual rules for hit dice and the DMG rules for hit dice, give you the complete picture.

 Of course, you'd prefer it only worked the other way, but I hope you can see that it wouldn't work only one way.



> The rules actually say something, and now you're claiming that they don't mean it?




Not at all.  I'm saying the rules say something that is helpful, but not required, for them to say.

I can add a line in the Bull's Strength spell that says "See PHB p6 for the rules regarding the Strength score" (or whatever page it's on), and it wouldn't be incorrect, nor would it be out-of-place, but neither would it be necessary.  Bull's Strength incorporates the existing rules of the Strength score without the requirement of a pointer to them.

Similarly, Brew Potion incorporates the existing rules for potions from the DMG, and would even were there no pointer to them in the feat text, because Brew Potion deals with potions, and the rules for potions are in the DMG.



> Monsters have CRs; PCs have ECLs.




PCs have CRs and monsters have ECLs as well.



> ... what's the Encounter Level ...




In your second scenario, is the Necromancer considered the Dragon's cohort?  Or does he have a different cohort?

-Hyp.


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## Nifft (Apr 29, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> No, it wouldn't; it would merely be incomplete.  The PHB rules for hit dice, in conjunction with the Monster Manual rules for hit dice and the DMG rules for hit dice, give you the complete picture.



 I already have a complete picture with just the PHB's rules. Why would you presume that a player is compelled to seek out rules in other sources just to use a class ability?

Unless you're just talking about an academic understanding. For that, I'd agree: one should read and understand all three to see the different uses of the words "hit dice", and the different rules derived from each.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I can add a line in the Bull's Strength spell that says "See PHB p6 for the rules regarding the Strength score" (or whatever page it's on), and it wouldn't be incorrect, nor would it be out-of-place, but neither would it be necessary.  Bull's Strength incorporates the existing rules of the Strength score without the requirement of a pointer to them.



 Unnecessary, because it's already in the same book.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Similarly, Brew Potion incorporates the existing rules for potions from the DMG, and would even were there no pointer to them in the feat text, because Brew Potion deals with potions, and the rules for potions are in the DMG.



 This argument would be relevant if you had even one example where the rules import wasn't stated, but was relied upon.



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> PCs have CRs and monsters have ECLs as well.



 Really? What's the ECL of the Adult Red Dragon in my example?

How much gold does a first level Kobold Rogue NPC have? Is it 5d4 x 10, or something different?



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> In your second scenario, is the Necromancer considered the Dragon's cohort?  Or does he have a different cohort?



 Your first guess is correct. The dragon has 22 hit dice and a +3 Charisma bonus, and the Necromancer is 17th level.

Cheers, -- N


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## Will (Apr 30, 2008)

I don't think it's been said, but something that occurs to me ... maybe there's a difference between +2 HD and 2 *bonus* HD?

I mean, there's a difference between loosing 2 levels and gaining 2 negative levels, after all.


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## moritheil (May 30, 2008)

Will said:
			
		

> I don't think it's been said, but something that occurs to me ... maybe there's a difference between +2 HD and 2 *bonus* HD?
> 
> I mean, there's a difference between loosing 2 levels and gaining 2 negative levels, after all.




In a sense, whether or not there is a difference is what the entire debate was about.


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## Nifft (May 30, 2008)

Will said:
			
		

> I don't think it's been said, but something that occurs to me ... maybe there's a difference between +2 HD and 2 *bonus* HD?



 Welcome to 13 pages ago. 

Cheers, -- N


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