# 3G: Dungeons & Stereotypes



## Nagol (May 13, 2013)

I suspect the DM rolling all the dice is like each person eating Chinese takeout out of their own little box.  It's not actually how things are done in real life, but the mess and logistics necessary for an accurate portrayal outweigh the value of verisimilitude.


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## Rel (May 13, 2013)

I don't watch most of those shows (my wife and I did start watching Big Bang Theory via Netflix and we're enjoying it) but I've seen clips of some of the examples you cite.  I'm sort of on the fence like you are.  I like that they are showing D&D as a fun, group activity and not something to hide away.  But yeah those inaccuracies stick out like a sore thumb.  I don't see how they are adding anything to the humor of the show and they'd be easy to fix.  I guess I tend to see a lot of the same inaccuracies with other geek activities too, like when they show the guys playing WoW on BBT.  So at least in those moments I don't feel that D&D is being singled out.

All in all though, I guess I'm at least a little pleased that the gaming hobby is getting some exposure in a way that isn't purely negative.  It was awfully hard to find those kinds of portrayals a couple decades ago.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 13, 2013)

I've seen RPGs spoofed on shows in which I know writers AND actors played D&D, and they still did things I've never done or seen in person, like dressing up as their characters.  Part of what we see may just be stuff those writers or actors actually experienced.



> Are roleplaying games so obscure that the activity can’t be spoofed without spoofing a specific game?




It may be a copyright issue.

D&D gets some play due to its age and how much it has permeated the pop culture.  Hell, in a sense, its the Kleenex or Xerox of the hobby- its brand name is often used as a synonym for the hobby as a whole.  Not so the rest of the games in the hobby, and the copyright holders might want concessions- payment, script reviews, etc.- to use their brand names.

After all, odds are high that if you see a brand name potato chip, soft drink, car, etc., on a show or in a movie, _SOME_body paid for that.  (If the show is small, the show probably paid the brand; if the show is huge, the brand probably paid the show.)


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## Shayuri (May 13, 2013)

Big Bang Theory is often pretty funny, but lets face it...it's not a geek-friendly show. Never has been. Its portrayal of D&D is not out of character compared to its portrayal of most other facets of "geek life." Maybe at the end of the day it gives more mainstream folks a kind of psychological handle to think about geeks more positively...but it's not a show that tries to challenge stereotypes in any way.

And there probably are groups where the DM throws the dice. It strikes me as something a younger-skewed group might do, but...eh. Most non-gamers consider RPGs to be something people normally grow out of, so it's not shocking to see that kind of neoteny, I guess.

A little irksome, agreed, but hey, it's some measure of progress. Check out Mazes & Monsters with Tom Hanks. He goes psycho from playing a roleplaying game, nearly commits suicide and becomes eternally lost in an imaginary reality.

Progress.


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## Morrus (May 13, 2013)

Well, the sequence in question wasn't designed to teach people how to pay D&D.  (And, incidentally, the DM _didn't_ roll all the dice - that was just a line early on). They missed out damage rolls, for example.  They missed out people spending 20 minutes deciding what to do.  They missed out rules arguments.  Lots of stuff about D&D got missed out!  This was just to speed the plot along; that would not add anything for the average viewer.  I felt it portrayed the important thing - a bunch of people having fun - pretty well.  They all seemed to be enjoying themselves; it didn't even come across as "too geeky"  - I think that if I wasn't a gamer, I'd think "that looks like fun!" when I saw that episode.


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## delericho (May 13, 2013)

Three threads on "Big Bang Theory"?



> In every case, they’ve done something I’ve never seen in any game I’ve ever played – the DM rolls all the dice.
> 
> Why? What was the logistical conundrum that made portraying the game accurately such a difficulty? If it’s “all in good fun,” why give an erroneous portrayal? Why they be messin’ with my game???




In the group I played in at high school, the GM always rolled all the dice. My first DM did that (probably to save on teaching us the dice), and so we just assumed that was the way it was supposed to be. I wasn't disabused of that notion until I went to university.


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## gideonpepys (May 13, 2013)

By way of scotching these stereotypes I think I should point out that, while I might be middle-aged (assuming 40 counts), I don't have a beard, I'm exceptionally fit, incredibly good-looking and charismatic and my wife is only 27.  Do I win some sort of prize?


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## Shayuri (May 13, 2013)

I believe it's called the Perfect Modesty Award. It's a gold-plated replica mirror polished to reflective finish, mounted on a pedestal of burnished, stained sequoia wood with brass trim. Under it is a plaque in which is engraved the motto, "GO YOU."

It comes with a complimentary internet.

Congrats!


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## mattcolville (May 13, 2013)

You see the same thing in film. Pretty much whatever your niche is, there's a movie or TV show somewhere that got it wrong, possibly many of them.

But those shows aren't in the business of getting your pet niche right. They're in the business of telling stories and engaging an audience and by every metric by which we judge such things, Big Bang Theory succeeds at that.

That's what they're experts at. Your an expert in D&D and gaming. They're experts at storytelling. There's no percentage in getting it right. The niche is incidental to the story.


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## Deset Gled (May 13, 2013)

Southern Oracle said:


> But I don’t see tv programs showing players running the wrong way around a baseball diamond, or carrying the soccer ball down the field, or kicking the football from player to player. I don’t see bowling with the wrong number of pins; I don’t see people playing poker with the wrong number of cards in their hands.




Yes, you do.  

Defibrillators can't restart a heart, they only stop erratic rhythms.  The police don't have to read you your Miranda rights when they arrest you, only when they interrogate you.  When people are killed, they evacuate their bowels and bladders.  Also, gunshot wounds tend to bleed quite a bit more in real life.

Maybe not all cases are as gregarious as those you describe, but TV gets things wrong a lot.  Especially when in comes to technical details.  And you don't notice because you don't care.  The important thing is that it adds to the plot and drama.

In the D+D episode of Community, Abed does all the rolling because it centralizes the focus.  For each player to have to be given a D20, physically move to the center of the set, and roll, would have detracted from the drama.  In BBT, having Penny break the mold of the DM rolling all the dice was a way of showing that her presence changed the game in a way that didn't interrupt the narrative or affect Sheldon's enjoyment.  And they didn't roll damage because it was simpler for the plot to have a simple pass/fail mechanic.



Southern Oracle said:


> Are roleplaying games so obscure that the activity can’t be spoofed without spoofing a specific game?




Yes.  RPGs are tiny.  It's easy for us to forget because we are all members of communities that support them, but pen-and-paper games really are just a blip on the cultural radar.  And outside of nerd circles, D+D is the only name there is for pen-and-paper games.  Pathfinder may eventually become mainstream enough to become reasonably known outside of the industry, but it's still an infant in terms of brand recognition and D+D has a 30 year head start.


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## Southern Lady (May 14, 2013)

Maybe it's just because I'm female, but I can't believe that's what you took away from this... when all I could remember was the punch to the gut when Sheldon said, "I've never played D&D with girls before." and Penny said, "Oh Sweetie, no one has."  But we had this discussion in real life so I won't rant more here. I'm an ORC not a Troll


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## Southern Oracle (May 14, 2013)

Deset Gled said:


> Yes, you do.
> 
> Defibrillators can't restart a heart, they only stop erratic rhythms.  The police don't have to read you your Miranda rights when they arrest you, only when they interrogate you.  When people are killed, they evacuate their bowels and bladders.  Also, gunshot wounds tend to bleed quite a bit more in real life.




You're absolutely correct.  And some television shows have portrayed your examples correctly (_Fringe_ springs to mind in regards to dead people voiding themselves), but most do not.  And there are numerous other examples of inaccuracies portrayed for the sake of story, dramatic tension, or what-have-you...many space scenes in television and movies have explosions and swooshing noises, yet there is no sound in a vacuum (and I loved _Firefly_ for its space scenes), and many dramatic car explosions simply wouldn't happen in real life.

And yes, I guess it bothers me because it's a subject about which I care.  Maybe doctors get annoyed at the medical inaccuracies portrayed in medical shows, and police officers can't stand to watch procedurals like _CSI_ or _Law and Order_ for the same reason.  I don't know, which is why I wrote the article.  It's good to know I'm not alone, and it's cathartic to get the rant out.


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## Southern Oracle (May 14, 2013)

Southern Lady said:


> Maybe it's just because I'm female, but I can't believe that's what you took away from this... when all I could remember was the punch to the gut when Sheldon said, "I've never played D&D with girls before." and Penny said, "Oh Sweetie, no one has."  But we had this discussion in real life so I won't rant more here. I'm an ORC not a Troll




You were the first girl I ever played D&D with.  Not even my sister would play until you did.  But you're right, as usual...if people knew just how many of the old WizOs (and current ORCs) were women vs. men, I think they'd be shocked.  Just goes to show, "Behind every great game, there's a woman."  (Or something to that effect.)


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## Michael Silverbane (May 14, 2013)

In at least two groups that I played in, the DM rolled all the dice. it didn't seem all that odd to me.


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## Dethklok (May 14, 2013)

I find it surreal that most posters on this thread seem to care about how accurately a TV series portrays the details of D&D, when few gamers care about how accurately D&D portrays the details of fantasy adventuring. We've all heard people complaining about how armor protects against swords but doesn't boost your save _vs_ dragonbreath, or how thieves can wear whatever color they wish without affecting their hide rolls, or how (in some editions) mages couldn't pick up swords, let alone use them like good old Gandalf. Who rolls the dice in televised depictions of D&D can't be any more important than this, can it?


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## delericho (May 14, 2013)

Dethklok said:


> I find it surreal that most posters on this thread seem to care about how accurately a TV series portrays the details of D&D, when few gamers care about how accurately D&D portrays the details of fantasy adventuring.




Because we actually know the details of the game, where none of us have _actual_ experience of fantasy adventuring?


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## Shayuri (May 14, 2013)

Speak for yourself!

*ventures boldly into the unknown*


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## Dethklok (May 14, 2013)

delericho said:


> Because we actually know the details of the game, where none of us have _actual_ experience of fantasy adventuring?



...Do  you also think that the writers of Big Bang Theory would have no way of  knowing that the players roll dice as well as the DM, without having  played the game? Maybe you do; or maybe you're just pulling my leg. And either way, that's fine with me. It just strikes me as odd, that's  all.



Shayuri said:


> Speak for yourself!
> 
> *ventures boldly into the unknown*



*Follows Shayuri*


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## Oryan77 (May 14, 2013)

The D&D players in film are always the same "nerdy" types. I enjoyed seeing James Franco play D&D and act like he was having a blast. But then that was the whole point of that scene in Freaks & Geeks (a cool guy unexpectedly playing D&D). 

There are plenty of charismatic and good looking D&D players around that you wouldn't identify as being a gamer. You also never see the players that look like bikers portrayed in film (I've gamed with several "biker" looking guys). Even the fan made D&D films you find online never portray players like this. They stick to the stereotype. Hell, not a single guy (or girl) in my group looks like the stereotypical D&D player now that I think about it.


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## Shayuri (May 14, 2013)

Here's a secret: LOTTA roleplayers are in, or were in, the military.

They are not nerdy, as one might infer.

My first game group had two ex-marines in it. They were a lot of fun to game with.


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## delericho (May 14, 2013)

Dethklok said:


> ...Do  you also think that the writers of Big Bang Theory would have no way of  knowing that the players roll dice as well as the DM, without having  played the game?




I was replying to a specific comment about us not caring about "how accurately D&D portrays the details of fantasy adventuring". Given that there is nobody alive with actual experience of fantasy adventuring (for a reason that should be obvious), it seems a very odd thing to comment on - how can we possibly know how accurate D&D is?

But also, as I noted in my first post in this thread, the approach where the DM rolls all the dice is exactly how we did it for many years. So while it's an unusual approach, it is by no means completely unknown.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 14, 2013)

> Here's a secret: LOTTA roleplayers are in, or were in, the military.




You got that right!  And dependents, too.


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## TMRose (May 15, 2013)

Well I am one of those middle age guys who still plays. But I dont have no beard and I was in th emilitary(Medic).  I work out at least 30 minutes each day.and while my beautiful wife does not play, I have taught my two daughters to play.. My boy prefers Roblox and minecraft but he still young.
 But as far as things being inaccurate on TV, the time I saw some one put a silencer on a revolver is still on top of my list.


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## dark2112 (May 15, 2013)

Southern Oracle said:


> But I don’t see tv programs showing players running the wrong way around a baseball diamond, or carrying the soccer ball down the field, or kicking the football from player to player.




I really wish someone would do this now. It would be hilarious.

Also, as much as it can annoy me to see these sort of inconsistencies, remember that some of the writers of police procedurals like CSI have stated that they sometimes deliberately throw in some of these ridiculous inaccuracies as a joke, so I'm sure sitcom writers do it as well. Trolling's not just an internet thing, sadly.



Shayuri said:


> Check out Mazes & Monsters with Tom Hanks. He goes psycho from playing a roleplaying game, nearly commits suicide and becomes eternally lost in an imaginary reality. Progress.




To be fair, that movie was based on the novel that was written based on the incorrect newspaper stories of the whole MSU steam tunnels incident where James Egbert supposedly did exactly that.


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## billd91 (May 15, 2013)

Shayuri said:


> Here's a secret: LOTTA roleplayers are in, or were in, the military.
> 
> They are not nerdy, as one might infer.




Uh, I've met quite a number of ex-military nerds. They're just not the infantry or other front-liner type. So I'm not likely to infer someone isn't nerdy just because they've been in the military.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 15, 2013)

My father would be a military nerd, but he does not game.


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## Oryan77 (May 15, 2013)

Shayuri said:


> Here's a secret: LOTTA roleplayers are in, or were in, the military.




A lot of guys in prison play D&D. I played with a guy straight out of San Quentin once. He learned to play D&D there and wanted to join a group right when he got out.

I guess criminals can be nerds too. But this guy looked like a biker and he was in for burglary. Maybe he was a nerd, but I'm sure nobody would call him one to his face.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 15, 2013)

Bet he always checked for traps...


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## JeffB (May 15, 2013)

Save vs. Dropping the soap.


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## Gfreak2x9 (May 16, 2013)

The terrible truth is that we cannot control how other people view us. We can scream, and yell but not matter what we do we cannot change the opinions of others no matter how hard we try! I think the negative image was born LONG ago. In fact if you Wikipedia D&D it has a few TERRIBLE stories of how this innocent hobby ended up as a negative label. Even as a twenty year old young man it is hard to tell people I am into things like D&D, especially when dealing with the opposite sex. No matter how suave you are, anytime you say "I play D&D every Thursday night" you risk that negative stereotype rearing its ugly head! The worst part is I know women who would really enjoy the hobby, but for whatever reason stay away. I'm not saying women don't play. I know a few women that do play, but as a whole I know MUCH more men than women! This negative stigma placed on fun loving, intelligent people is beyond insulting. I know people who would rather have their son grow up unhappy, then grow up a D&D player! It is a misunderstood hobby that should be embraced! How many adults loose their inner child, only to find  they spent every penny on cigarettes, alcohol, or other means of self destruction!  I think the world would be a better place if we all sat down and played a little more D&D! Give a yourself a few hours to forget about that jerk at the office, or the lady who cut you off on the freeway! Shut up and roll initiative already! There is a Beholder coming!!! Its a game! Mind you a complicated one, but a game none the less! You don't see people shunning baseball players do you? "Oh dear god! Hes got a bat! RUN children RUUUN!!!" So why do people do it to D&D?


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## Jhaelen (May 16, 2013)

Gfreak2x9 said:


> You don't see people shunning baseball players do you? "Oh dear god! Hes got a bat! RUN children RUUUN!!!" So why do people do it to D&D?



I have to admit, seeing someone with a baseball bat does make me feel uncomfortable. Of course, I'm living in Germany, and I don't think anyone here's actually using these things to play baseball...


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## Ragmon (May 19, 2013)

My theory: They only have 1 set of dice. That is why the DM rolls everything, so they don't complicate the scene by passing the d20 around.


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## Southern Oracle (May 20, 2013)

An inconsistency that my wife pointed out after the fact -- Sheldon made a big deal about having bought a new set of dice!  If only the DM rolls, why would he have dice?

But there's no trying to make sense of things.  It's good enough that we discuss and make a connection over something we all enjoy.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 20, 2013)

Possibilities:

1) Dice are totemic, even for him

2) He plays in more Han one group

3) He makes the DM roll his dice for his PC.


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## Alan Shutko (May 20, 2013)

Nagol said:


> I suspect the DM rolling all the dice is like each person eating Chinese takeout out of their own little box.  It's not actually how things are done in real life, ....




I can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet. My friends and I did this all the time when we were in college!  Either we didn't have enough plates and stuff or didn't want to wash them.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 20, 2013)

Big Chinese food fan, but have only ever seen that on TV or in movies.  Never even did it when living alone.

The closest I ever came was eating shrimp fried rice from the to-go container...but it was a huge clamshell, not a cute little box.


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## Alan Shutko (May 20, 2013)

I used to pace out my soy sauce packets because they only penetrated about an inch deep into one of those boxes.  It got a lot better when we moved out of the dorms and didn't need to wash dishes in the bathroom or half the dorm away in the one kitchen they put in.


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## billd91 (May 20, 2013)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Big Chinese food fan, but have only ever seen that on TV or in movies.  Never even did it when living alone.
> 
> The closest I ever came was eating shrimp fried rice from the to-go container...but it was a huge clamshell, not a cute little box.




It depends on what you're getting and how you get it. If you've got the main dish in one container and rice in another, of course you get a plate to get both together. But a lot of places now, from Chang Jiang to Chin's Asia Fresh, sell combination platters that already have the two packed together. The only thing on the side is the egg roll. So now, many of us ordering Chinese food eat right out of the takeout box.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 20, 2013)

None of the places I've eaten in the past couple of decades package their take-out that way.  Everything is separated.


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