# 5.5 Nat 20/CritHit Rule in play



## OB1 (Aug 21, 2022)

Last night was my group's first Spelljammer AP adventure, and I decided to ask if they'd be interested in trying out the new Nat20/Crit rules.  3 of the 4 players hadn't heard about the playtest, but after a brief discussion about it and ensuring them that we could go back to the 2014 rules after the first session, everyone agreed that it would be fun to try it out.  One player (Warforged Paladin) was highly skeptical of the new rule (as was I when I first read about it) but was happy to try it out so she could give informed feedback on the survey.  I thought the Rogue would also balk, but he was super into trying it out right from first mention.  The other 2 party members, Fighter and Ranger, initially thought the rule sounded way better.

*Nat 20 Results* - 3 for PCs, 3 for monsters.  Rogue had a sneak attack nat 20 lose it's crit damage, but also benefited from a Nat20 against him not getting critical damage.  He then used his inspiration the very next turn after using his move and bonus to get close enough to a fleeing bad guy to attack (thus getting sneak attack) and took out the monster due to that.  The Paladin also had a monster Nat20 and was thrilled to point out that my monster wouldn't get crit damage   The fighter and ranger were the other two Nat20s, both on weapon attack rolls, so both got their normal Crit damage.

*Session wrap up* - I'd already guessed given the reaction at the table to the various Nat20s thru the session, but the group enthusiastically decided to keep the rule for the remainder of the Spelljammer campaign, and are interested in incorporating other rule changes throughout when it makes sense to do so.  The three players who just learned about the playtest are all also going to download the materials and participate in the survey.  

For me, my last bit of doubt about the new rules disappeared after seeing them in play, and my initial thought that the Rogue specifically, and some other classes would need some new features to make up for the loss of Crit damage is now gone.  The rule works perfectly fine on it's own.  For example, the Paladin had initially planned on only using Smites when she Crit, but with the new rules used 2 smites at other moments, both of them the bonus action before attacking variety.  

Would love to hear about other tables tales from this rule!


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## jmartkdr2 (Aug 21, 2022)

The paladin not hoarding spell slots is an interesting, unexpected outcome. I like it.


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## OB1 (Aug 21, 2022)

jmartkdr2 said:


> The paladin not hoarding spell slots is an interesting, unexpected outcome. I like it.



It was unexpected to me as well, but in hindsight, makes sense.  If you're can't double the dice on a smite, those additional effects of the bonus action smites suddenly become a lot more interesting.

Also, should have mentioned for those who don't know, the Spelljammer Adventure starts the PCs at level 5.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Aug 21, 2022)

Honestly, hearing about a paladin not hoarding her slots for crit-smite feels like a breath of fresh air, even more so when you make the good point that the smite spells becomes way more appealing without the mirage of the fabled crit-smite-nova!

really glad to hear it, and I cant wait to have a campaign to try them myself.


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## FitzTheRuke (Aug 21, 2022)

I played with them yesterday too, in a Spelljammer game as well. Only one crit, but the Inspiration was used in a very effective way to finish a battle, so it went over quite well.


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## Ruin Explorer (Aug 21, 2022)

OB1 said:


> If you're can't double the dice on a smite, those additional effects of the bonus action smites suddenly become a lot more interesting.



Which ones and why? Because I'm not seeing it, at all. But maybe I'm missing something?


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## Stalker0 (Aug 22, 2022)

the fact that inspiration serves as a "free sneak attack" for a rogue does give an interesting balance. On the one hand, no more massive SA crits. On the other, more sneak attacks in general. An interesting trade off I had not considered.


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## MarkB (Aug 22, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> the fact that inspiration serves as a "free sneak attack" for a rogue does give an interesting balance. On the one hand, no more massive SA crits. On the other, more sneak attacks in general. An interesting trade off I had not considered.



I suspect that, in a lot of groups, when other characters happen to roll a 20 while already having Inspiration in hand, there will be a tendency to 'feed' it to the rogue by preference, for exactly this reason.


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## OB1 (Aug 22, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Which ones and why? Because I'm not seeing it, at all. But maybe I'm missing something?



Thundering Smite for the knock prone and then second attack at advantage was her go to tactic.


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## Benjamin Olson (Aug 22, 2022)

Tales and Chronicles said:


> really glad to hear it, and I cant wait to have a campaign to try them myself.



See I'm the exact opposite. It makes me really want to roll up some sort of Half-Orc Paladin-Rogue, booming blade abusing monstrosity in the next year or two to enjoy exciting crits while I still can.


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## OB1 (Aug 22, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I suspect that, in a lot of groups, when other characters happen to roll a 20 while already having Inspiration in hand, there will be a tendency to 'feed' it to the rogue by preference, for exactly this reason.



And another side effect of this, which didn't come up in our session on Saturday but likely will next session, is that since everyone loses inspiration when they take a long rest (other than humans who get it back at the start of the day), a party that is maxed on inspiration may be more willing to push a little bit longer before taking that rest.


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## MarkB (Aug 22, 2022)

OB1 said:


> And another side effect of this, which didn't come up in our session on Saturday but likely will next session, is that since everyone loses inspiration when they take a long rest (other than humans who get it back at the start of the day), a party that is maxed on inspiration may be more willing to push a little bit longer before taking that rest.



Musician will come into play there too, the ability to start a few people off with Inspiration at the start of the day may mitigate that impulse.


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## CleverNickName (Aug 22, 2022)

I pitched the idea to my Friday gaming group, and they weren't interested in trying it out.  I'll ask again this weekend, once they've had a chance to mull it over a bit longer.


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## Ruin Explorer (Aug 22, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Thundering Smite for the knock prone and then second attack at advantage was her go to tactic.



Interesting. Does blow your Bonus Action and require you to have the movement (and lack of nearby enemies to AoO you) to chase them, and is a big waste of damage if not using an L1 slot (as it weirdly doesn't scale with slots), but at least the damage sacrifice is pretty small.


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## OB1 (Aug 22, 2022)

So I went back to my Roll20 log from the game (which recorded crit hit damage that we ignored in the session) and got the following results from 7 rounds of total combat across 2 encounters with 4 PCs and 18 total enemies.

Monster Crit Damage lost due to new rule - 15 (3 crits)
PC Crit Damage lost due to new rule - 7 (only 1 crit of 3 lost damage)

@CleverNickName maybe that will help with convincing your group!

Not to jump to conclusions from such a small sample, but I wonder if the expected math of lost PC damage to Monster damage with this change is supposed to be 2:1?  That doesn't even include the fact that the rogue got an extra sneak attack when he wouldn't have due to the Inspiration he got from the earlier nat20.


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## Maxperson (Aug 22, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Interesting. Does blow your Bonus Action and require you to have the movement (and lack of nearby enemies to AoO you) to chase them, and is a big waste of damage if not using an L1 slot (as it weirdly doesn't scale with slots), but at least the damage sacrifice is pretty small.



Also, since you're using the bonus action you have to use it before you roll to hit, so you can miss.  Then it's concentration so you can lose it or if the fight ends it's wasted.  

When I played my paladin I didn't horde slots for crits, because those are few and far between.  Meanwhile since I'm not using my smites, things live longer and do more damage to us in most fights.  That's a much bigger cost to us than the rare crit smite would yield.  I did use my smite if I happened to crit while I had slots, but wouldn't hold on to slots for that occasion. 

I also didn't cast any of the smite spells for the above reason. It wasn't worth giving up the damage with those risks. If I could have decided to cast it after I knew the result of my attack, I would have used them more.


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## OB1 (Aug 22, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> Also, since you're using the bonus action you have to use it before you roll to hit, so you can miss.  Then it's concentration so you can lose it or if the fight ends it's wasted.
> 
> When I played my paladin I didn't horde slots for crits, because those are few and far between.  Meanwhile since I'm not using my smites, things live longer and do more damage to us in most fights.  That's a much bigger cost to us than the rare crit smite would yield.  I did use my smite if I happened to crit while I had slots, but wouldn't hold on to slots for that occasion.
> 
> I also didn't cast any of the smite spells for the above reason. It wasn't worth giving up the damage with those risks. If I could have decided to cast it after I knew the result of my attack, I would have used them more.



In this case, the risk you mention was worth the reward of fishing for another inspiration die with the advantage against prone.


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## Maxperson (Aug 22, 2022)

OB1 said:


> In this case, the risk you mention was worth the reward of fishing for another inspiration die with the advantage against prone.



I still wouldn't do it, but it's good to hear that she is, and that it's working well for her.  If we all played the same the game would be fairly boring.


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## OB1 (Aug 22, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> I still wouldn't do it, but it's good to hear that she is, and that it's working well for her.  If we all played the same the game would be fairly boring.



It sure would!  And back to the original point, she had gone into the game planning on hording smites for crits (which I agree isn't an optimal strategy anyhow) but changed her outlook once the new rule was in place.


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 25, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> the fact that inspiration serves as a "free sneak attack" for a rogue does give an interesting balance. On the one hand, no more massive SA crits. On the other, more sneak attacks in general. An interesting trade off I had not considered.



I’d also note that it leaves a little more room mechanically for rogues to either do something else cool on a crit, or to have a limited use ability to nova that is more in the player’s hands. 

The rule by itself does frankly need the already wonky assassin into the dirt. Even if you play exactly as an assassin needs to get the most out of its subclass, you will barely be doing more damage than any other rogue. In fact, a swashbuckler with mage slayer or sentinel probably does more damage. 

Definitely a fixable problem, but it does mean I won’t be making any assassin rogues for playtesting until there is a playtest rogue!

I’d love it if rogues get a “when you crit, the attack can deal sneak attack damage even if the attack didn’t qualify for it” and in tier 2, “when you crit, choose from one of these [3, 4 at most] effects”, one of which is to move a short distance and hide or make an attack, another of which might be to slow the target if it survives, and another could simply be some sort of damage buff. 

At tier 3 at latest, IMO rogues should add “make a single weapon attack” to cunning action. Maybe combine this with crit effects, and make one of the options just “use cunning action without using your bonus action”. 



OB1 said:


> Last night was my group's first Spelljammer AP adventure, and I decided to ask if they'd be interested in trying out the new Nat20/Crit rules.  3 of the 4 players hadn't heard about the playtest, but after a brief discussion about it and ensuring them that we could go back to the 2014 rules after the first session, everyone agreed that it would be fun to try it out.  One player (Warforged Paladin) was highly skeptical of the new rule (as was I when I first read about it) but was happy to try it out so she could give informed feedback on the survey.  I thought the Rogue would also balk, but he was super into trying it out right from first mention.  The other 2 party members, Fighter and Ranger, initially thought the rule sounded way better.
> 
> *Nat 20 Results* - 3 for PCs, 3 for monsters. Rogue had a sneak attack nat 20 lose it's crit damage, but also benefited from a Nat20 against him not getting critical damage. He then used his inspiration the very next turn after using his move and bonus to get close enough to a fleeing bad guy to attack (thus getting sneak attack) and took out the monster due to that. The Paladin also had a monster Nat20 and was thrilled to point out that my monster wouldn't get crit damage   The fighter and ranger were the other two Nat20s, both on weapon attack rolls, so both got their normal Crit damage.
> 
> ...



I’m glad I read this post now, before running my first playtest session for this UA. 


jmartkdr2 said:


> The paladin not hoarding spell slots is an interesting, unexpected outcome. I like it.



Yeah tbh I always encouraged only smiting on a crit, because IME it meant Paladin players used spell slots more out of combat, but this might get us there even better. 

I’ll also say, I think if the cleric is going to have access to all divine spells, I think the Paladin should get some benefit when they hit with an attack that deals extra damage from a spell they cast, like adding their Cha to the damage or something. Paladins should be the best at smiting, even when it’s via spells others can also cast, IMO.


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## Peter BOSCO'S (Aug 25, 2022)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’d also note that it leaves a little more room mechanically for rogues to either do something else cool on a crit, or to have a limited use ability to nova that is more in the player’s hands.
> 
> The rule by itself does frankly need the already wonky assassin into the dirt. Even if you play exactly as an assassin needs to get the most out of its subclass, you will barely be doing more damage than any other rogue. In fact, a swashbuckler with mage slayer or sentinel probably does more damage.
> 
> ...



If you use the "Steady Aim" feature from Tasha's, then Rogues will have advantage whenever they want, as long as they are willing to have a Speed of zero. This is what makes the L7 Half Elf Rogue with Elven Accuracy a kill-bot in the game I am running.


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## Raith5 (Aug 25, 2022)

I think getting advantage on a 20 only becomes a big deal if there is a general reduction in the ways you can get advantage. There are too many easy ways to get advantage. My rouge scout with steady aim never has to worry about it!


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## OB1 (Aug 25, 2022)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’d love it if rogues get a “when you crit, the attack can deal sneak attack damage even if the attack didn’t qualify for it” and in tier 2, “when you crit, choose from one of these [3, 4 at most] effects”, one of which is to move a short distance and hide or make an attack, another of which might be to slow the target if it survives, and another could simply be some sort of damage buff.



They could also give sneak attack a specific exception in the rule itself.  Either "When a sneak attack hits due to a nat20, roll the sneak attack damage twice." or "When a sneak attack hits due to a nat20, add 2 points of damage per Rogue level to the damage roll."

Not sure either is 'needed' based on the results I saw in play, but I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this in the Rogue class playtest.


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## OB1 (Aug 27, 2022)

Session 2 Playtest Results - Spelljammer campaign, Level 5 PCs

Same adventuring day as session 1, party still had 2 Inspirations from the previous session, and got 2 more from skill checks before a fight when one of the PCs engaged some NPCs on the Spelljammer ship to play poker and got lucky with 2 Nat20s on three rolls.  Was the PC "Inspiration Fishing'?  Maybe a little, but it made sense in the context of the game, got him to role-play with the NPCs, and provided an awesome moment at the virtual table.

Early in the fight, the monsters had nearly 60 points of Critical damage wiped out by the new rule on three Crits in the span of 5 attacks.  Half the party would have been down in the first round of combat.  Instead, they were just badly injured and able to fight back through some very good tactics.

The party filled up on inspiration the next round (on Ranger and Fighter crits), which reminded them to start spending it more often.  The rogue used it to get sneak attack when he wouldn't otherwise, and got another critical (14 points of damage lost, which wouldn't have been enough to take the enemy out) then used it again the next turn so he could disengage with his bonus and still sneak attack the enemy.  He's quickly come to the conclusion the the versatility of having inspiration for sneak attack outweighs the lost damage from his Crits.

The paladin has yet to Crit on an attack, and this time used Ispiration + Thundering smite to blow an enemy off the deck of the ship and into Wildspace when she had the enemy near the side.  This actually turned the fight, by effectively eliminating a target that was at full HP and had a beefy attack.

In 2 sessions, reliable inspiration for the PCs feels like it is opening up the game to a variety of new combat tactics, while preventing a few random rolls from derailing the action (either in the PCs favor or against it).  All 4 PCs ended the fight in single digit HP, and though they still had 2 pcs with inspiration, were very grateful for a long rest after.


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## Mistwell (Aug 27, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Musician will come into play there too, the ability to start a few people off with Inspiration at the start of the day may mitigate that impulse.



And Musician recharges on a short rest, so it can be extended further.

Which is a tad odd, given they're looking for ways to reduce short rests to healing only.


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## Charlaquin (Aug 27, 2022)

OB1 said:


> And another side effect of this, which didn't come up in our session on Saturday but likely will next session, is that since everyone loses inspiration when they take a long rest



Wait, what? Where does it say that?


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## MarkB (Aug 27, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> Wait, what? Where does it say that?



Under Inspiration in the playtest glossary.


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## Charlaquin (Aug 27, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Under Inspiration in the playtest glossary.



I totally missed that. Thanks!


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## Bill Zebub (Aug 27, 2022)

Clearly your group never got the memo that the sky is falling.


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## Parmandur (Aug 27, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> I totally missed that. Thanks!



Part of what makes the Human ability special.


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## Charlaquin (Aug 27, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Part of what makes the Human ability special.



See, I was thinking it would often allow them to inspire someone else, tying in with the common fantasy trope of humans being “natural leaders.” This works too though.


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## Bupp (Aug 27, 2022)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’ll also say, I think if the cleric is going to have access to all divine spells...



Off topic of the thread, I'm not sure if this will end up being the case. I'm starting to think that they have these three spell lists only for the sake of the Magic Initiate feat. The fact that only 1st level spells are on these lists is what makes me think that.


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 27, 2022)

Bupp said:


> Off topic of the thread, I'm not sure if this will end up being the case. I'm starting to think that they have these three spell lists only for the sake of the Magic Initiate feat. The fact that only 1st level spells are on these lists is what makes me think that.



I think they said that all spells will have a type. It may be that clerics only get divine spells that are also XYZ, like conjuration, Abjuration, or that restore hit points, but I think it’s more likely that Paladin would have the limited version.


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## CrashFiend82 (Aug 28, 2022)

Crawford also said that classes would still have spell lists but may get to grab spells from these lists at times, I am guessing bard's magical secrets or sublclasses.


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## dave2008 (Aug 28, 2022)

Thank you for sharing your actual play results. It is a breath of fresh air compared to what we typically hear on these forums!


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## Charlaquin (Aug 28, 2022)

CrashFiend82 said:


> Crawford also said that classes would still have spell lists but may get to grab spells from these lists at times, I am guessing bard's magical secrets or sublclasses.



That’s not exactly what he said. He implied classes would have means of accessing other spells than just the power source lists, but he didn’t actually say there would be individual class spell lists. That is a possibility based on what he said, but it isn’t a  guarantee. We really just don’t know enough yet to speculate on what class spells will look like.


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## OB1 (Aug 28, 2022)

Would love to see other's reports on this rule in play in this thread.  Has anyone else tested these rules yet?


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## OB1 (Sep 6, 2022)

Playtest #3 using chapter 3 of Light of Xaryxis for testing with 4 level 5 PCs.  Had our first character death during the first fight of the adventuring day (4 CR4 and 1 CR2 monsters from Boo's Astral Menagerie), even without monster crits (they had 2 Nat20s for what would have been an additional 22 points of damage).  PCs only had one attack crit (lost 7 points of damage).  The PC who died had 2 lost death saves from 2 hits from the monster who dropped him (the 2nd and 3rd of a multi-attack) and then rolled a 2 on his save at the start of his turn (didn't have inspiration to use, but would have).

Once again, I'm struck by the thought that MotM and later monsters have been built with the new rule of monsters not critting in mind, resulting in much tougher encounters in general (rather than only if the monsters get lucky with a string of crits in a single encounter). This is the 2nd combat encounter in 3 sessions in which monster crits would have TPKd the party in a group that has 2 eight year veterans of 5e and 2 four year veterans.

The player who had his Changeling Rogue perish in the fight came back with a human wizard, built with the new rules for humans, and used his inspiration on an important saving throw in the new PCs first battle, possibly preventing his second character death of the session.

Will be a couple of weeks before we play again.  If there are rules released between now and then we can incorporate we likely will.


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## Parmandur (Sep 6, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Once again, I'm struck by the thought that MotM and later monsters have been built with the new rule of monsters not critting in mind, resulting in much tougher encounters in general (rather than only if the monsters get lucky with a string of crits in a single encounter). This is the 2nd combat encounter in 3 sessions in which monster crits would have TPKd the party in a group that has 2 eight year veterans of 5e and 2 four year veterans.



Yeah, that's why I don't hinkle theybwill publicly test the Monsters: they already have been for a while in published books, mixing with current iteration rules and PCs.


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 6, 2022)

Our session on Sunday had a few nat 20s for the warlock and rogue.  A brief realization that crit damage would not be rolled for Hex or Sneak attack damage resulted in a universal agreement that we would not use the new rule.


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## OB1 (Sep 6, 2022)

Sacrosanct said:


> Our session on Sunday had a few nat 20s for the warlock and rogue.  A brief realization that crit damage would not be rolled for Hex or Sneak attack damage resulted in a universal agreement that we would not use the new rule.



Just curious, will you be keeping the rule to give inspiration on the Nat20?


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 6, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Just curious, will you be keeping the rule to give inspiration on the Nat20?



Nope.  we didn't even remember it, to be honest.


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## OB1 (Sep 6, 2022)

Sacrosanct said:


> Nope.  we didn't even remember it, to be honest.



Yeah, I'd given out Inspiration maybe a dozen times in the last 3 years of play until this change.  Now when I see a Nat20 I give a little detail flourish about whatever they just natted and tell them they've been Inspired (or ask them who saw their moment and get's inspired by it if they already had inspiration).  Makes for a great play moment (especially since it comes up on all Nat20s, not just attacks).  The Paladin and Rogue (RIP), were using their inspirations almost as quickly as they got them.


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## shadowoflameth (Sep 14, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Last night was my group's first Spelljammer AP adventure, and I decided to ask if they'd be interested in trying out the new Nat20/Crit rules.  3 of the 4 players hadn't heard about the playtest, but after a brief discussion about it and ensuring them that we could go back to the 2014 rules after the first session, everyone agreed that it would be fun to try it out.  One player (Warforged Paladin) was highly skeptical of the new rule (as was I when I first read about it) but was happy to try it out so she could give informed feedback on the survey.  I thought the Rogue would also balk, but he was super into trying it out right from first mention.  The other 2 party members, Fighter and Ranger, initially thought the rule sounded way better.
> 
> *Nat 20 Results* - 3 for PCs, 3 for monsters. Rogue had a sneak attack nat 20 lose it's crit damage, but also benefited from a Nat20 against him not getting critical damage. He then used his inspiration the very next turn after using his move and bonus to get close enough to a fleeing bad guy to attack (thus getting sneak attack) and took out the monster due to that. The Paladin also had a monster Nat20 and was thrilled to point out that my monster wouldn't get crit damage   The fighter and ranger were the other two Nat20s, both on weapon attack rolls, so both got their normal Crit damage.
> 
> ...



Interesting. I've been against the change but I am hopeful. I wonder how other classes found the rule. How did the monsters not criting affect the encounter difficulty? Were any recharge abilities used?


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## OB1 (Sep 17, 2022)

Playtest #4 - Chapter 4 of Spelljammer

Had a 5 hour session last night with only 4 Nat20s rolled (3 from PCs, 1 from monsters).  Interesting to remember how streaky Crits can be in an individual game session.

Only 1 PC crit lost any potential damage (Paladin, who had used Thunderous smite and lost 4 damage on a low D20 roll)  All three inspirations gained in session were used when the session started with 2 PCs losing previous inspiration due to a long rest.  Players are now determined to use inspiration almost as soon as they have it.

@shadowoflameth Decided to test out my home-brew tweak to the Crit rule so that monsters who crit immediately recharge a spent ability on a crit.  It was a pretty beefy ability from a Thri-Kreen Mystic that got recharged (it's first use did 31 points of damage against a PC, the crit only 'lost' 5 damage).  PCs freaked out when the monster recharged and went all in focus fire on it to prevent it from using that ability again.  In this case, the monster's recharge was only supposed to happen on a short rest, so without the crit it would have had no chance at getting the ability back.  I'm going to have to think about this rule tweak and whether it should only effect rolled recharges, and perhaps only allow an immediate extra recharge roll.  

One other side note, the Rogue who was killed in session 3 was brought back to life in this session (PCs went to a temple on Bral and dished out 2k GP) and the players Wizard character who finished out the previous session decided adventuring life wasn't for him and decided to stay behind on the Rock to explore the Mage Guild hall.  The wizard had been the subject of the Thri-Kreen recharge ability on the way to the temple and the player nearly lost their 2nd PC in 2 sessions and likely would have if the monster had gotten to use it's ability a 2nd time (but that would have been up to the dice).

Once the PCs got the Rogue back, they long rested again (no inspiration lost this time!) and then faced 2 deadly combats with a short rest in-between.  PCs are totally spent at this point (2 encounter adventuring day!) and while they don't know it yet, I'm sure will be excited to get a short rest at the start of the next session).  I mention this only because the new style monsters (from MotM and beyond) seem to fit much better into the definition of what a Deadly encounter per the adventuring day guidelines are.  I really, really can't wait for the original MM monsters to be re-done in this style.


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