# Supernatural Season 4 - Spoilers



## D.Shaffer (Sep 19, 2008)

Well, Season 4 premiered last night.

They've dealt with Dean's lack of belief before, so this was an interesting turn of events.  Having 'The other side' show up was new, nand I cant wait to see how that plot ends up. Heck, can angels lie? What's it mean if they can? What's it mean if they CANT and he's telling the truth, why havent they gotten involved more directly earlier.  Whole can of worms opened involving this.

Nice to see Ruby is back too, although with a different actress.  Sam's got some explaining to do too.


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## Crothian (Sep 19, 2008)

Of course it doesn't have to be an angel.  

I really liked the episode and it has a lot of set up for the season and at the same time a good amount of pay off.


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## Umbran (Sep 19, 2008)

I've been wondering where the bloody angels were since season 1.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 19, 2008)

Umbran said:


> I've been wondering where the bloody angels were since season 1.




Bloody does seem the right word.

I was blown away by the episode. I would give it a 9.5 out of 10. The half point deduction is the recasting of Ruby. Not that I mind Ruby being recast, but the choice of actress is what I am dissapointed in.

I have much more to discuss on speculate about but it will take a bit to get all my thoughts together on this.


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## Crothian (Sep 19, 2008)

They had to recast her the old body was dead.  I'm holding my judgement on the new Ruby for a little while to see more of her.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 19, 2008)

The problem I have with the new Ruby is the actress, not the recasting part. The old Ruby had a a cockyness and swagger about her that came off very well onscreen. There was a charisma about her that just made me like her from the first time I saw her. The new actress came off more as shy and manipulative. Not that the old ruby wasn't manipulative, but it wasn't the Mr. Burns hand wringing "Excelent" manipulative feel that the new ruby gave off. The old Ruby schemed, but at the same time knew how to come off as friendly at the same time. For comparison, in this episode I think the psychic would have been a better casting for Ruby since she also had that same charisma as the old Ruby. 

Don't let my complaint be too loud though, since as I said it was a 9.5/10 otherwise I had no complaints.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 19, 2008)

OK, the big question after this episode is who is Castiel and what does he really want with Dean? He is able to go to hell and pull dean out which must take some work. He is immune to all known mortal wards and enchantments. He can posses bodies, and he doesn’t seem to fear the lower level demons (As we learned last season, humans in hell turn into low level demons like Ruby). He has shadows of feather wings.  He can put people to sleep by touching them. He claims few can handle seeing his true form or hearing his true voice. Those who have seen him had have had their eyes melted out of their heads, and when he speaks he turns on electronics then sends a blast wave that shatters all glass and temporarily causes extreme pain in ones ears. He claims to be an angel sent by God to rescue Dean.

This is one bad mofo that no one would want to deal with. So what does this tell us about the world? 

One option is that he is lying and the existing worldview remains the same. He really is a major demon lord like they first thought. Like Lilith there are many demon lords who have great powers. It was implied that Lilith can’t be stopped by the same things that would take out lesser demons. In addition to Lilith there was the Yellow Eyed Demon who also more powerful than others. Who says Castiel (besides Castiel himself) isn’t just another demon lord making his own power play. Both Yellow Eyes and Lilith have gone about things differently, why can’t Castiel also be trying another track. So far he has shown little respect for humans.

The other option is that he is telling the truth. In addition to demons there are the counterparts which are angels. These aren’t your _Touched by an Angel_ angels though. These are your _Fallen_ or _The Prophesy_ angels. These angels don’t seem to care about humans. This leads to other questions. Are the demon lords like Lilith and Yellow Eyes fallen angels from Lucifer’s rebellion? If so is Sam a Nephilim, is that where his powers come from, is that why Yellow Eyes was trying to get him to lead his army? Has God decided that Sam the Nephilim needs to be stopped (Maybe because Ruby is corrupting him) and Dean is the one to stop him? Maybe God still doesn’t like Nephilim in general since he killed them all in the flood? Are Nephilim even more powerful than Angels? What about the other gods (Like The Trickster and the Scandinavian Harvest god) they have run into, where do they fit into this picture?

Lots of questions here for the season to explore. By the way, Supernatural has been good about checking mythology before incorporating it into the show. Does anyone here know anything about the real world name Castiel and if there is any possible connection to the story?


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## phoenixgod2000 (Sep 20, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> Lots of questions here for the season to explore. By the way, Supernatural has been good about checking mythology before incorporating it into the show. Does anyone here know anything about the real world name Castiel and if there is any possible connection to the story?




Castiel is the Angel in charge of watching over Thursdays 

And I have to say that the actor they got to play the Angel was awesome and I hope they keep him for the duration of the season. Reasuring, creepy, and compelling, all at the same time.

Ruby, not so much.  Although I think that she was so subdued because she has been made into an ordinary human again.  That is why Sam is willing to work with her.  She's not the demon she used to be.


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## Crothian (Sep 20, 2008)

phoenixgod2000 said:


> Ruby, not so much.  Although I think that she was so subdued because she has been made into an ordinary human again.  That is why Sam is willing to work with her.  She's not the demon she used to be.




What makes you think that?


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## frankthedm (Sep 20, 2008)

phoenixgod2000 said:


> Castiel is the Angel in charge of watching over Thursdays



Little bit of 4th wall humor for the 4th season.


Umbran said:


> I've been wondering where the bloody angels were since season 1.



Some folks just assumed Supernatural followed this trope: Devil But No God - Television Tropes & Idioms. 







Crothian said:


> Of course it doesn't have to be an angel.



No, there are some other possibilities. Though someone on Supernatural - Television Tropes & Idioms indicates 



Spoiler



Casteil is Legit





Brown Jenkin said:


> The problem I have with the new Ruby is the actress, not the recasting part. The old Ruby had a a cockyness and swagger about her that came off very well onscreen. There was a charisma about her that just made me like her from the first time I saw her. The new actress came off more as shy and manipulative. Not that the old ruby wasn't manipulative, but it wasn't the Mr. Burns hand wringing "Excelent" manipulative feel that the new ruby gave off. The old Ruby schemed, but at the same time knew how to come off as friendly at the same time. For comparison, in this episode I think the psychic would have been a better casting for Ruby since she also had that same charisma as the old Ruby.



I agree on most of that. I kinda wonder if there were any behind the scenes "casting issues" going on. But regardless, is sure feels like Ruby got Refrigeratored.







BrownJenkin said:


> This is one bad mofo that no one would want to deal with. So what does this tell us about the world? ...why haven't they gotten involved more directly earlier.



 Folks wonder about that in _real life_, so don't be too surprised if the show does not answer it.


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## phoenixgod2000 (Sep 20, 2008)

Crothian said:


> What makes you think that?




New Ruby seemed awfuly unsure of herself and almost came across to me as strangely dependant on Sam.  Plus she had that line about how she didn't want to come between Sam and his brother.  The whole diner scene between them played in a really weird way with Ruby as the weaker partner.  It just struck me that Ruby was unsure of herself because she was mortal now and had lost all her demonic confidence.  Sam was the strong one now, not her.

<Shrug> Or it could be just a bad actress making weird acting decisions for her character.


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## Asmo (Sep 20, 2008)

Man, I love this show!
When it´s this good, it´s like x-files on steroids  

Asmo


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 21, 2008)

Asmo said:


> Man, I love this show!
> When it´s this good, it´s like x-files on steroids
> 
> Asmo




Speaking of X-Files, Katie Cassidy (Old Ruby) is staring in the new movie _Fencewalker_ by Chris Carter.


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## Mark Chance (Sep 21, 2008)

Here's my two-cents worth:

First, the season opener was good, but I think a bit predictable, which leads me to believe that we can take very little of it at face value.

Second, the writers have paid attention to mainstream Christian theology in the past. For example, the episode in which a murdered priest "came back" as an avenging "angel". When he was summoned and confronted by another priest he'd known in life, the priest pointed out that humans don't become angels when they die. The "angel" priest remembered this, and then turned to light and "passed on to the other side".

Third, if the writers continue this attention to detail, then Ruby's claim that humans in Hell become demons is also false. Within traditional Christian belief, the demons are fallen angels, not the souls of the damned.

Put all of this together, and Dean's angel could indeed be an angel, and a very fallen one at that. If this is the case, very nearly everything he told Dean was a lie. After all, if there really is a war in Hell going on, then certainly the BBEGs of Hell are involved. My bet is that the angel is really a Lord of Hell, the one who actually holds the contract for Dean's soul. Lilith proved powerless to destroy Sam, so now it's time to up the ante by using Dean against his brother and Sam's newfound ability to exorcise demons with a gesture.

Of course, this is all speculation, and is certainly not intended to start any sort of theological dispute.


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## Mistwell (Sep 21, 2008)

Enjoyed the first episode.  I didn't mind the recasting of Ruby.


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## Arnwyn (Sep 22, 2008)

Thought it was quite good and enjoyed myself.

Nice to (finally) see "the other side" (and hopefully the other side really is the other side). *ahem*


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## Umbran (Sep 22, 2008)

phoenixgod2000 said:


> New Ruby seemed awfuly unsure of herself and almost came across to me as strangely dependant on Sam.
> ...
> Sam was the strong one now, not her.




Um, you did see what Sam did to the other demon there, right?  It sure looks like Sam is now capable of either destroying demons, or sending them back to Hell, no ritual required.  Presumably, this power was dangerous to Lilith, who seemed to be more powerful than Ruby.

It seems to me that she is the weaker partner, and is smart enough to not risk cheesing Sam off.  She's awoken a dragon, and is stepping around it gingerly - that's only reasonable.  No need to call on mortality - just good sense.


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## Desdichado (Sep 23, 2008)

I don't know how all y'all are making these conclusions about Ruby.  She had... what? Four? Five? lines of dialogue total in this episode.

As far as I'm concerned we don't yet know anything about Ruby's new body, if she's come back as a kinder, gentler Ruby, if she's scared of Sam, or if everything's exactly the same as it used to be.

I agree that the actor who played Castiel was really good, even with just a few lines of dialogue.

The idea that he really is this angel, and that he's so powerful that all the demons are just freakin' out like that one "game over, man!" demon that Sam sent back to Hell... that would be a really boring season.  "Yeah, we're going to quit hunting because now this angel is so much better at it than us.  Let's hit the beach in Cancun and snag some girls gone wild!"  So, I'm with the bouncy Pac-Man avatar guy that chances are we can't yet trust anything that we "know" based on this episode.

Although, possibly Sam and Dean make Girls Gone Wild wouldn't be such a bad thing after all.

"You are *not* invited!"


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## D.Shaffer (Sep 23, 2008)

Hobo said:


> The idea that he really is this angel, and that he's so powerful that all the demons are just freakin' out like that one "game over, man!" demon that Sam sent back to Hell... that would be a really boring season.



Well, if even if he IS telling the truth about his intentions, it all depends on the actual outcome they're shooting for.  Not all angels are the new age 'White wings and feel good' type angels we're used to these days.  Angels can be rather horrific in appearance when you get right down to it(wheels of fire with multiple eyes anyone?) and angels can be a SERIOUS sign of some nasty stuff about to come down the pipe.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 23, 2008)

Hobo said:


> I don't know how all y'all are making these conclusions about Ruby.  She had... what? Four? Five? lines of dialogue total in this episode.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned we don't yet know anything about Ruby's new body, if she's come back as a kinder, gentler Ruby, if she's scared of Sam, or if everything's exactly the same as it used to be.
> 
> I agree that the actor who played Castiel was really good, even with just a few lines of dialogue.




That is part of my point on the Old Ruby/New Ruby casting. Just like you said you really liked Castiel even with only a few lines of dialogue, that was my take on Old Ruby. The charisma of Old Ruby also jumped off the screen from when she first showed up last season even without any dialogue and when we didn't even know who she was. The new Ruby should have caught my eye and made me care from the moment I saw her. Instead she was blah and every line of dialogue that came out made it worse.


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## Punnuendo (Sep 23, 2008)

Question, was Ruby the same girl that was in Sam's hotel room with Dean and Bobby showed up?


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## Desdichado (Sep 23, 2008)

Yeah, but Castiel was _written_ to be impressive.  So he was.  Ruby didn't have much to work with.

Hmm.. Ruby the hotel girl?  I didn't notice that.  Could be, though.  Hmmm....

EDIT:  Did a bit of research online and apparently the answer is _yes_, that was Ruby in the room with him.


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## Punnuendo (Sep 24, 2008)

Ah, glad I wasn't just seeing things.


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## Desdichado (Sep 24, 2008)

That's potentially pretty massive.  Why did she pretend not to recognize Dean and Bobby when they showed up?  Is she sleeping with Sam?

What exactly is her agenda here?  Is she Sam's personal little succubus, leading him into temptation, or is she really on the up and up, trying to help him?  Or is she only trying to help him be the biggest, baddest demon in Hell?


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## DonTadow (Sep 24, 2008)

I like where they are going with angels and look forward to them writing them into the supernatural universe.  My bet is that these angels are neutral as is their god.  However, Sam's turn to the darkside has made them step in for some reason to stop sam.


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## Umbran (Sep 25, 2008)

Hobo said:


> The idea that he really is this angel, and that he's so powerful that all the demons are just freakin' out like that one "game over, man!" demon that Sam sent back to Hell... that would be a really boring season.




Not necessarily.  How much power Castiel has does not speak to what rules he plays by.  It may be that he's not allowed to personally take on the demons, for example...



> Why did she pretend not to recognize Dean and Bobby when they showed up? Is she sleeping with Sam?




Possibly, but not required to explain her behavior.  Dean was quite clear on how he felt about Ruby, and about Sam's powers, before he died.  Staying below the radar until they knew what was up with Dean was only sensible.



> What exactly is her agenda here?




Well, last season her agenda was supposedly Lilith.  She hates Lilith, and wants to see her destroyed.  Why should that have changed, now that Sam's _capable_ of the deed?


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## Merkuri (Sep 25, 2008)

I loved Castiel.  Very well cast.  They made him seem very awesome (in the sense of inspiring awe), scary, and unknown.  He's very much a wildcard.  I have no sense at all what's coming next, and I love it.

My vote is that Supernatural's God is actually quite different from the Christian God that most people think of when they think of angels.  The portrayal of Castiel as being scarier than demons leans towards that.  The fact that we have at least one demon who seems to be on the Winchesters' side and that we have a frightening angel seems to suggest that things are grayer than they seem.  I suspect we're heading down the road of the moral dichotomy portrayed in Babylon 5, where one side may seem to represent good and the other evil, but in the end both sides end up being manipulative overlords that think they want what's best for us.  

I'm guessing there's really no black and white here, just slightly darker or lighter shades of gray.


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## D.Shaffer (Sep 25, 2008)

Considering that so far all the demons we've seen, barring one, seem intent on causing as much destruction as they can, I'm not sure you can place them anywhere BUT Evil.  Even Ruby mentions she's a bit of an exception among demons.  Angels?  Well, we dont have enough info to go on yet, so it's entire possible they're not in the Good camp, but Demons?  I'm fairly confident they're Evil with the capital E.


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## Desdichado (Sep 25, 2008)

Just a wild guess on my part, but I'm going with the fallen angel route for Castiel.

Maybe that's just because I'm reading some Dresden Files books with the Denarians, but that seems like a good way to go from a plotline perspective, and it gives you moral ambiguity for quite a while until you find out more.  Lots of potential for totally screwing over the Winchesters before it's sorted out.


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## frankthedm (Sep 26, 2008)

Hobo said:


> Lots of potential for totally screwing over the Winchesters before it's sorted out.



 That's part of the show! 

Speaking of which, new episode is playing here in the states soon.


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## D.Shaffer (Sep 26, 2008)

Thoughts on Ep 2...

Nice to see them expanding on Dean's lack of faith here.  Some well worn carpet on this one, but he presented it pretty well.  Bobby's reaction is similar to mine, these days.   Still, REALLY effective portrayal.  

Ruby's reaction was amusing. "It's an angel! They smite first and ask questions later! I'm not hanging around"  Nice to see someone who's normally fairly smug being terrified out of her mind.

As for Castiel himself.  I'm beginning to think he really is who he says he is.  What this says for Dean and his involvement is interesting. I dont think we've seen Dean so effectively Gobsmacked before like he was here.  Of course, I dont think anyone's ever effectively told Dean 'Stop whining and shutup or I'll send you back to hell' before.  And this is one of the good guys. 

The actual arc plot first revealed is...wow.  Bibilical stuff. Literally.  Seals of the Revelations. The Apocalypse.  Active war between Heaven and Hell.  Lillith trying to free Lucifer.  If this ISNT the last season, I'm not sure how they could top any of this stuff.


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## Desdichado (Sep 26, 2008)

D.Shaffer said:


> If this ISNT the last season, I'm not sure how they could top any of this stuff.



By not finishing it off at the end of the season?


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## frankthedm (Sep 26, 2008)

D.Shaffer said:


> The actual arc plot first revealed is...wow.  Bibilical stuff. Literally.  Seals of the Revelations. The Apocalypse.  Active war between Heaven and Hell.  Lillith trying to free Lucifer.  If this ISNT the last season, I'm not sure how they could top any of this stuff.



I am very happy to see the show working toward a conclusion. FAR too many TV shows try to just keep going and going until the network pulls the plug. Hell, to risk going off on a tangent IMHO _Firefly / Serenity_ was so damn good because It wound up only getting one season and a movie. Rather than putzing around with filler and spoon feeding the audience the plot over multiple seasons, Joss actually had to tell the damn story.

Not happy at all about the next episode, but I loath time travel in general.


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## Umbran (Sep 26, 2008)

D.Shaffer said:


> If this ISNT the last season, I'm not sure how they could top any of this stuff.




They have 66 seals, right?  That could be 22 seals a season, for the next three seasons.  That'd put then at seven seasons, which is often about the top for such shows.

Of course, they could also speed through many of those in the background, completing it all in one season.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 26, 2008)

I am really starting to feel that Sam is a Nephilim. There are plenty of seals and I get the feeling Dean was freed to stop a Nephilim from leading a deamon army as one one seals. There is a reason God chose Dean, and it seemed like Castiel knew and really didn't want to say. 

As for Ruby, I am still not happy with the casting. They really need to focus on her a bit to explain her radical personality shift if it is intentional from the writers.


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## frankthedm (Oct 3, 2008)

new episode is playing here in the states soon.


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## Crothian (Oct 3, 2008)

It's on now, and wow.  I love Dean saying his Mom is Hot!!


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## frankthedm (Oct 3, 2008)

Crothian said:


> It's on now, and wow.  I love Dean saying his Mom is Hot!!



OK, my fears were averted. The time travel issue was resolved in one of the few ways I find acceptable.


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## Punnuendo (Oct 4, 2008)

Really interesting episode. I don't think anyone was really surprised by the bit at the end where Dean is supposed to stop Sam, but good to get it out in the open.


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## Blastin (Oct 4, 2008)

wow...good episode. Thought the scene where his mom siad about how she would never want her children to grow up hunters was pretty intense.

As far as "stopping" Sam, I don't know. The angel said he was headed down a "dangerous path", not an absolute. Could be that Dean just needs to get rid of Ruby and the demonic influance.


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## Punnuendo (Oct 4, 2008)

Well, stop Sam's trip down that path. I believe the quote was something like "Sam is headed down a dangerous path, and we don't know where it leads. So stop it, or we will."


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## Asmo (Oct 6, 2008)

Wow,that was an amazing episode, I can´t believe that there isn´t more talk about this show!
Good to see Mitch Pileggi again, great performance as Azazel.
At the moment the best show, although Dexter is pretty good in its own, dark way.

Asmo


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## Blastin (Oct 7, 2008)

yeah, for some reason When I talk about this show with other sci-fi geeks it seems to get a negative reaction. Not sure why as it's a great show. 
I'm really loving the direction for this season thus far, altough I hope they don't over do the demon of the week bit. The show is at its best when it's alternating with the overall plot with the demons and then episodes about some weird monster out of mith.


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## D.Shaffer (Oct 7, 2008)

Most of the people I know who like 'Genre' shows, tend to like Supernatural once they ACTUALLY WATCH IT.  But for some reason, not many of them seem to actually make the effort to give it a chance.  I'm not sure why.

Me?  I like to think of it as a Hunter game in live action form.


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## frankthedm (Oct 7, 2008)

D.Shaffer said:


> Most of the people I know who like 'Genre' shows, tend to like Supernatural once they ACTUALLY WATCH IT.  But for some reason, not many of them seem to actually make the effort to give it a chance.  I'm not sure why.



 As someone who avoided it for the first season until it was 3/4th over, I can tell you my reason, it looked like a chick show in guy's show clothing. The main characters looked similar to the models who sold clothing to the Crombie Zombies and the show aired on the same channel as _Superman 90210_.

But I finally caught an episode and saw that it is a damn awesome show that everyone can enjoy.


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## DonTadow (Oct 7, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> As someone who avoided it for the first season until it was 3/4th over, I can tell you my reason, it looked like a chick show in guy's show clothing. The main characters looked similar to the models who sold clothing to the Crombie Zombies and the show aired on the same channel as _Superman 90210_.
> 
> But I finally caught an episode and saw that it is a damn awesome show that everyone can enjoy.



I LOVE THE SUPERMAN 90210 COMMENT lol. Hillarious.  

You're right, its a far more superior show than smallville.  Smallville has its moments when everyone isn't screwing everyone but man it gets old fast. 

Yay! Another show that does time travel right (watch this heroes).  In one episodes they establish the rules, time can not be changed, only observed. You can bet that if this show goes on there will be at least one more trip back for some reason.  

I can't help but think there is more to this.  Ressurection, Time traveling: The angels are pulling out the big guns to deal with this thing.  It has to be more than just Sam turning to the Dark side and it has to be more important than a hellgate openining.  And there was no mention of the gates that lock away satan, something sam is trying to stop.  

Now that the angel has turned us.. the audience.. on sam... what if sam is really good... well for the world.  He plans on stopping the apolcolypse and this is obviously anti angel/god.  Wow, this is getting deep, does that make angel/god the bad guy.


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## frankthedm (Oct 10, 2008)

It will be on soon.


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## D.Shaffer (Oct 10, 2008)

I like the parallel between Sam and...whatever that thing was called.  Nice bit of character building there, and it's good to see their time apart has led to some growth.  Still, I doubt it's REALLY the end of things for Sam's abilities.  I wouldnt be half surprised if Dean misunderstood something. Wouldnt be completely his fault either as the warning was rather vague.


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## Merkuri (Oct 10, 2008)

Yeah, I liked the quote, "It's not what you are, it's what you do."  It really sums up Sam's feelings about his own powers.  But at the same time, we saw that even though the whatsit in this episode used his powers for good (saving his wife) it still turned him into a monster.  It seems to me like a really obvious metaphor for what's happening to Sam.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sam keeps getting put into positions where he's forced to use his powers to keep him or Dean alive.  No more sneaking out at night to exorcise demons, but more using the abilities in self defense, which Dean will probably have a hard time stopping (or justifying why he should stop it).

I have two theories about this:

[sblock]1) Ruby is part of Azazel's plan and she needs to teach Sam to use his powers so that he'll be ready to use them when the plan comes to fruition.  Right now he's just "practicing" on demons, but later he'll be put into a position where he has to use his power against something else - like the angels - probably in self defense or in defense of Dean.  When that something else happens he'll be so used to using his powers that it'll be instinct for him to lash out with them.

or 

2) Everything is backwards.  Ruby is truly a demon who's seeking redemption, so to speak, and is helping Sam because she wants fewer demons in the world and Castiel has a darker side.  He wants to stop Sam because he really doesn't want Sam killing demons.  

I think the first theory is more likely, but I'm so used to looking for twists that I wouldn't be surprised if the second is what happens.[/sblock]


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## DonTadow (Oct 10, 2008)

Merkuri said:


> Yeah, I liked the quote, "It's not what you are, it's what you do."  It really sums up Sam's feelings about his own powers.  But at the same time, we saw that even though the whatsit in this episode used his powers for good (saving his wife) it still turned him into a monster.  It seems to me like a really obvious metaphor for what's happening to Sam.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Sam keeps getting put into positions where he's forced to use his powers to keep him or Dean alive.  No more sneaking out at night to exorcise demons, but more using the abilities in self defense, which Dean will probably have a hard time stopping (or justifying why he should stop it).
> 
> ...



 I go with your option number 2.  I say say that the god Castiel serves is neutral, and does not want sam interefering because ...essentially that power he has is reserved for higher powers.  I think all of the sides are as they are now, we just don't know what side the angels are on and our default tells us that it should be good, but we're wrong.


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## frankthedm (Oct 16, 2008)

New ep is on tonight.


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## DonTadow (Oct 17, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> New ep is on tonight.




So here's something spooky, i click in on this forum and franks last post was 6 hours ago and the last two were 6 days ago. 6 6 6


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## Merkuri (Oct 17, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> So here's something spooky, i click in on this forum and franks last post was 6 hours ago and the last two were 6 days ago. 6 6 6




It's another sign of the apocalypse!  Another seal is broken!

You've got too much time on your hands.


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## Crothian (Oct 17, 2008)

I love this show, this is great!!


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## D.Shaffer (Oct 17, 2008)

That was a nice tribute to old horror movies.  Funny too.
Black and white. The cheesy opening/closing music. The credit style. Hilarious.

Also, I loved the references.  Lucy?   No Frankenstein's monster but they did have the lab. Also, they had the classic King Kong line in there.  The only thing missing was a giant radioactive lizard.

Considering the stuff I was watching beforehand, I needed a bit of levity, so this was nice. Of course, if past experience is correct, this means the next ep's probably going to be heavy.


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## Blastin (Oct 17, 2008)

that ep. was great. Loved the black and white and all the in jokes. Some great lines too:
"I've been re-hyminated!!!"


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## Asmo (Oct 19, 2008)

"Agents Angus and Young" hehe 

Asmo


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## Arnwyn (Oct 20, 2008)

That was a flat-out awesome episode. Nice to see it was B&W all the way through. They did everything right with that episode. While some say that once a series gets into too many seasons, it gets "stale" - and that might generally be true. However, one good thing about somewhat-long-running shows is that in later seasons they can start taking some risks and come up with unique concepts. Much like Stargate's "Wormhole X-treme!" episode, this was yet another of them.

(The agent names never get old. This one was another goodie.)


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## D.Shaffer (Oct 24, 2008)

Not the ultra serious ep I was expecting.  Pretty damn hilarious at parts.  

I will NEVER hear 'Eye of the Tiger' in the same way again after this ep.


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## Merkuri (Oct 24, 2008)

D.Shaffer said:


> I will NEVER hear 'Eye of the Tiger' in the same way again after this ep.




I read that the part at the end with him lip syncing happened because his costar decided during one take to see what would happen if he didn't give the cue (banging on the top of the car) while Dean was drumming to himself in the car with his eyes closed.


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## D.Shaffer (Oct 31, 2008)

Uriel?  Damn. They're pulling out the big guns here.
From Wiki...


> Uriel is often identified as a cherub and angel of repentance.[1] He "stands at the Gate of Eden with a fiery sword,"[2] or as the angel who "watches over thunder and terror."[3] In the Apocalypse of Peter he appears as the Angel of Repentance, who is graphically represented as being as pitiless as any demon. In the Life of Adam and Eve, Uriel is regarded as the spirit (i.e., one of the cherubs) of the third chapter of Genesis. He is also identified as one of the angels who helped bury Adam and Abel in Paradise.
> 
> Stemming from medieval Jewish mystical traditions, Uriel has also become the Angel of Sunday (Jewish Encyclopedia), the Angel of Poetry, and one of the Holy Sephiroth. It was Uriel who wrestled Jacob at Peniel and Uriel is depicted as the destroyer of the hosts of Sennacherib.




And from Sam..."Dean was right...you ARE all dicks"   We knew that things werent all going to be rosy from the angelic side of things, but damn.  I guess some of the angels still arent quite that fond of us.  Mud Monkeys indeed. I do find the choice of actor they used for the role a bit interesting...a statement of sorts?  Still, considering mankind is often considered one of the things that led to Lucifer's rebellion, it'll be interesting to see if Uriel's little escapade leads to anything.


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## Merkuri (Oct 31, 2008)

Yeah, Uriel is one of the major archangles in the Bible, like Michael and Raphael.  Of course, there's no guarantee in the Supernatural universe that these angels correspond to traditional Christian angels.  They do seem very close to Christian beliefs (the names, referencing the apocalypse, "creations of my Father", etc.) but at the same time they seem to lean very towards a Zoroastrian system instead of traditional Christianity, where it's less about Jesus, God, redemption, etc and more about the cosmic conflict between Good and Evil where human beings are just sort of in the way, so who knows if all the named angels correspond to their Bible roots.


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## Ranger REG (Nov 1, 2008)

Merkuri said:


> I read that the part at the end with him lip syncing happened because his costar decided during one take to see what would happen if he didn't give the cue (banging on the top of the car) while Dean was drumming to himself in the car with his eyes closed.



You can watch just that part (see the Previews) in the CW website.

http://www.cwtv.com/cw-video/supernatural/short/?play=404-4629

Or rewatch the full episode in its entirety.

http://www.cwtv.com/cw-video/supernatural/full/?play=448-4651

I'm still cracking up about it.


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## Asmo (Nov 2, 2008)

D.Shaffer said:


> I do find the choice of actor they used for the role a bit interesting...a statement of sorts? Still, considering mankind is often considered one of the things that led to Lucifer's rebellion, it'll be interesting to see if Uriel's little escapade leads to anything.




Another excellent episode, indeed.
I´m not familiar with the actor playing Uriel and what you mean with " a statement of sorts"? Would you please expand on this.
I`m also interested in your thoughts about how mankind somehow led to the rebellion of Lucifer? Of course without breaking the boards code about religion and stuff.

Asmo


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## Brown Jenkin (Nov 2, 2008)

Asmo said:


> I`m also interested in your thoughts about how mankind somehow led to the rebellion of Lucifer? Of course without breaking the boards code about religion and stuff.




The theory goes that angels were around since the creation and loved/were loved by God. When God made man he created them in his own image and gave them souls and loved them more than the angels. Some angels became jealous of men and started a rebelion led by Lucifer to reclaim thier place. The rebelious angels were defeated and cast out of Heaven. 

This is a legend that has made it to many movies and while based on ancient sources has now reached a level in hollywood that it has become accepted as fact (much like certain vampire mythos have). The movie "The Prophesy" and its sequals cover the story in depth as well as the recent mini-series "The Fallen."


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## Asmo (Nov 2, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> The theory goes that angels were around since the creation and loved/were loved by God. When God made man he created them in his own image and gave them souls and loved them more than the angels. Some angels became jealous of men and started a rebelion led by Lucifer to reclaim thier place. The rebelious angels were defeated and cast out of Heaven.




So where does this theory come from, originally? Any sources? (besides what the Bible and various christian /religious scriptures says)

Asmo


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## Merkuri (Nov 2, 2008)

I don't know if this was where it first came from, but doing a little research on Wikipedia I think the idea that Lucifer was cast down because he thought he was better than man is mentioned in the Quaran (reference link).  It's hard to find sources for religious ideas _outside_ of religious scripture. 

I don't think there's much mention of it in the Bible except for maybe one passage in Isaiah.  It's a good literary idea, though, so I could see why writers would leap on it.  What makes for a better plot, the vague idea that Lucifer doubted God's plans and was cast down for it, or that he thought he was better than mankind and fell for his arrogance?  It probably only needed one person to voice the idea for it to become popular.  

It's very easy to hate a being who was thrown out of heaven because he thought he was better than us, and it gives him a good excuse to want to wreak havoc on mankind.  If he simply doubted God's plans then it becomes easier to sympathize with him (and I believe he's been used in this sense by some authors more than once).


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## Brown Jenkin (Nov 2, 2008)

Asmo said:


> So where does this theory come from, originally? Any sources? (besides what the Bible and various christian /religious scriptures says)
> 
> Asmo




Very old sources. It can be mostly derived from the Book of Enoch which dates back to at least the 1st century BC and was in sporadic use until the 4th century when it was denied canonical status except for the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.


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## D.Shaffer (Nov 3, 2008)

Asmo said:


> Another excellent episode, indeed.
> I´m not familiar with the actor playing Uriel and what you mean with " a statement of sorts"? Would you please expand on this.



Was mostly talking about the fact they used a black actor to play a human hating angel, one that was essentially slinging racial slurs at that.  Was just wondering if the irony was intended.  

For the rest of it...others have covered it well.


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## DonTadow (Nov 5, 2008)

D.Shaffer said:


> Was mostly talking about the fact they used a black actor to play a human hating angel, one that was essentially slinging racial slurs at that.  Was just wondering if the irony was intended.
> 
> For the rest of it...others have covered it well.




I caught that bit of irony too.  I thought his scenes were quite strong.  You get the angels "tolerate" humans thing


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## D.Shaffer (Nov 7, 2008)

Not the best ep this season, but it's got some good moments.

On the metaarc angle, we have Dean admitting he remembers, but still refusing to talk about it.  We have Sam calling him on it.  And we have Dean continuing a behavior of being more snarky then usual when upset about something. 

For the other aspects.  The suicidal teddy bear. Oh lord.   I love how they focused on the back wall for the expected blood/brain spray from the shotgun and we just get the cloud of fluff.


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## Asmo (Nov 7, 2008)

D.Shaffer said:


> For the other aspects. The suicidal teddy bear. Oh lord.   I love how they focused on the back wall for the expected blood/brain spray from the shotgun and we just get the cloud of fluff.




Priceless!

Even if it´s quite mean, I couldn´t help myself lol over Deans "it´s like a Deepwood Duchovny" comment and the expression on his face.

It wasn´t by any means a spectacular episode, just another "feel good" hour with the boys. Great stuff.
Next episode seems to be more dark. Can´t wait. 

Asmo


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## Merkuri (Nov 7, 2008)

I loved the teddy bear so much I just had to go in the other room and tell my boyfriend (who is familiar with the concept of Supernatural but doesn't watch it regularly).  The fact that they go upstairs with the little girl expecting to find a bigfoot she calls a teddy bear and _actually find a teddy bear_ is just too funny.  The suicide attempt and later on the "normal" teddy bear missing an ear was also awesome.


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## Blastin (Nov 9, 2008)

my favorite part: "KNEEL BEFORE TOD!!!!!!!"  My wife thought I was nuts I Was laughing so hard....The superman refrance was priceless.


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## DonTadow (Nov 11, 2008)

Blastin said:


> my favorite part: "KNEEL BEFORE TOD!!!!!!!"  My wife thought I was nuts I Was laughing so hard....The superman refrance was priceless.



I loved that too ... here's anothe rbit of wierd irony. Honestly, an hour before I saw the supernatural episode i was watching smallville. Well they now have doomsday as zod's son. I was curious if there was a relation in the comic book i was unaware of so I wikied it.  While reading the article i was reading how popular the "Kneel before zod " thing is. I didn't know it was that popular.  They had a list of referenced tv shows that it has appeared in. I thought it was funny all the iterations of it.

And, low and behold, one hour later i watch another iteration of it on tv show.  Spooky and ironic.


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## Brown Jenkin (Nov 15, 2008)

The last episode was pretty good. Waiting for part 2 but I will give it a 7/10 so far. 

The one negative is that my severe dislike for New Ruby fell squarely on the actress. Secretary Ruby and even Maid Ruby were better Rubys by far than Coma Ruby. There is just something about this actress that can't seem to pull off a good Ruby.


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## Asmo (Nov 15, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> The last episode was pretty good. Waiting for part 2 but I will give it a 7/10 so far.
> 
> The one negative is that my severe dislike for New Ruby fell squarely on the actress. Secretary Ruby and even Maid Ruby were better Rubys by far than Coma Ruby. There is just something about this actress that can't seem to pull off a good Ruby.




7/10 seems fair. I don´t have any problems with new Ruby whatsoever, she´s pretty badass, if you ask me.
I´ve high hopes for the rest of the season, it feels like they have something big going on with the show. If they can nail the whole apocalypse thing right with the epic struggle between good and evil it will be completely awesome.

Now I want some more dark/serious episodes with the new chick and our favorite boys. Bring it on!

Asmo


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## Deset Gled (Nov 15, 2008)

There's no specific episode that I have found to be amazing this season, but overall I think that Supernatural has done a really good of picking itself up this season.  After season 2, it was obvious that they were struggling with the overall concept of the show.  They forced themselves into a somewhat hokey and very predictable plotline at the end of season 2, and weren't sure what to do with themselves in the middle of season 3.  But season 4 has come on very strong with a central storyline that is intriguing, well developed, and well suited to the actors (except for Ruby).


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## Merkuri (Nov 15, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> There is just something about this actress that can't seem to pull off a good Ruby.




Honestly, each time I look at her I can't help but think she had too much botox.   Totally breaks my immersion.


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## D.Shaffer (Nov 17, 2008)

Local area here preempted Supernatural for the Jets game.  :sigh:

Havent had a chance to actually grab it via alt. means, yet.


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## frankthedm (Nov 21, 2008)

kinda predictable ep tonight, but still entertaining. Sadly no new episodes until january *15th.*


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## Merkuri (Nov 21, 2008)

Is it wrong that I think Castiel's hot? 

(Yes, I'm a woman, if anyone is curious. )


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## Brown Jenkin (Nov 21, 2008)

Wow, I will give this episode another 9/10. This season is majorly rocking. As much as I hate waiting 2 months for new episodes, at least they gave us plenty to think about for awhile.


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## D.Shaffer (Nov 21, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> kinda predictable ep tonight, but still entertaining. Sadly no new episodes until january 16th.



...I'm still playing catch up on eps, so maybe now I can actually...you know, catch up.


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## Asmo (Nov 22, 2008)

Yes, another amazing episode, you can´t wish for more, really. Angels and demons, powerful magics and hot chicks, oh my!!
Loved the ending, Jensen Ackles is king.  

Asmo


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## Arnwyn (Nov 25, 2008)

Very good episodes.

But... I'm not sure if I'm entirely on board with Supernatural's version of angels. Bad-ass warrior dudes who follow orders? Cool. Only 4 of 'em have actually seen god? Cool. Angels can't feel _love_? Are you kidding me? 

And the whole "falling from heaven" - _literally_ - and the angel's grace - as an actual object - don't do much for me, either... kinda goofy and lame.


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## DonTadow (Nov 27, 2008)

Arnwyn said:


> Very good episodes.
> 
> But... I'm not sure if I'm entirely on board with Supernatural's version of angels. Bad-ass warrior dudes who follow orders? Cool. Only 4 of 'em have actually seen god? Cool. Angels can't feel _love_? Are you kidding me?
> 
> And the whole "falling from heaven" - _literally_ - and the angel's grace - as an actual object - don't do much for me, either... kinda goofy and lame.



I think with both they do, but not like humans.  Even in religious texts, there is always a strict distinction as to how different angels and humans should be. Though they might have feelings, thier not like ours.  Their essense may have seemed like an object to us, but considering on the angels were seen handling it i have a feeling its something more.


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## Arnwyn (Nov 27, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> I think with both they do, but not like humans.  Even in religious texts, there is always a strict distinction as to how different angels and humans should be. Though they might have feelings, thier not like ours.



That sounds cool, but that's not how chickie-poo explained it. She said, pretty clearly AFAIC, that they simply don't have feelings - including love, which was a specific example.

That's fine for the show's mythology, but I'm unsure if I, personally, am on board with that. (Reminder: Purely personal opinion here, and I didn't make it out to be otherwise.)



> Their essense may have seemed like an object to us, but considering on the angels were seen handling it i have a feeling its something more.



Again, that would be cool, but that's not how it was portrayed, IMO.


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## Delak (Dec 2, 2008)

My wife and I are really enjoying this season as well. I personal am loving the direction the writers are taking with the Angel and Demon war. We are bummed that we have to wait till January for new episodes though.

I have a question for all of you that is related to the subject matter. I am looking for books that deal with angel and demon wars or fallen angels fiction of course does anyone have any suggestions for a good reads?


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## frankthedm (Jan 14, 2009)

New episode on Thursday!


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## D.Shaffer (Jan 20, 2009)

Bit late but a few comments on the new ep.

I was hoping for more on the ongoing arc, but this wasnt to bad.
Creepy children living in walls? Fuuuun. The dog scene, in particular, was chilly. LOVED the moment when she first stepped over the circle.


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## Brown Jenkin (Jan 20, 2009)

Pretty much just filler. Not bad, but the old monster movie episode was better filler. Right now I think it is best with the Angel arc. Some of the previous season arcs were equal to the filler but this year the main arc is just awsome.


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## Crothian (Jan 20, 2009)

It was a good episode.  I'm glad not everything has to fit into the seasonal arc.


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## Arnwyn (Jan 20, 2009)

Them "nothing more than animals defending their territory" sure wrote some good english, Clem.


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## The Lost Muse (Jan 21, 2009)

Delak said:


> I have a question for all of you that is related to the subject matter. I am looking for books that deal with angel and demon wars or fallen angels fiction of course does anyone have any suggestions for a good reads?




Paradise Lost.


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## D.Shaffer (Jan 21, 2009)

RPG wise, _In Nomine _is all about a cold war between Angels and Demons.  The material ranges from deadly serious to (divine) comedy. 

_Good Omens_ is a fun take on the entire deal too.


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## D.Shaffer (Jan 23, 2009)

Another filler ep, although it does tie into the main plot near the end.

It was a decent ep, but nothing to really write home about.  The title made me laugh.  That scene with the animated noose was creepy too.  It WAs nice to see a regular (well, maybe not so normal) human be the villain.  I kept waiting for the music from the Blue Oyster scene to start playing when Dean had his little 'incident'


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## Crothian (Jan 23, 2009)

Are you using the word filler as a negative?

I liked it.  It had a great title and it kept me guessing on who was the villian.


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## Brown Jenkin (Jan 25, 2009)

The main problem I saw was that they should know there is no end because there is no head to cut off. While they may be in the middle of a demon/angel war right now, there are plenty of other threats. If Lilith was stopped there would still be plenty of Shifters, Ghosts, Vampires, Werewolves, Ancient Gods, and other misc. monsters. The job of a hunter never ends.


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## frankthedm (May 1, 2009)

New Episode on right now!


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## Crothian (May 1, 2009)

And now its over!!  

Oddly, it looks like it is going where I thought it was last October.  It could be a very Biblical ending.


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## D.Shaffer (May 1, 2009)

Looks like Castiel got a bit of a stern talking to. That, and/or found out something about Dean he didnt like. He was down right snippy near the end there.


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## Merkuri (May 1, 2009)

D.Shaffer said:


> Looks like Castiel got a bit of a stern talking to. That, and/or found out something about Dean he didnt like. He was down right snippy near the end there.




Or... something that occurred to me while I was watching... maybe it's not Castiel.


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## DonTadow (May 3, 2009)

Merkuri said:


> Or... something that occurred to me while I was watching... maybe it's not Castiel.




I was tninking the same thing.


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## Merkuri (May 3, 2009)

I remember when the demons were about to loose hell at the end thinking, "I bet that little girl has an angel," and yup, in about 20 seconds after I thought that she exorcised the first demon.  Then when Castiel's old host called her "Castiel" my first thought was, "How does he know which angel it is?"  I paid attention, and there was nothing that happened to make me think, "Oh, yeah, that angel is definitely Castiel."

It's just all very sketchy if you ask me.  I think we've just seen the ol' bait and switch.

Though I was almost very disappointed to think that they would be keeping the Winchester's angel contact in a little girl's body.  Whether that was Castiel or not, that actor does a damn good job portraying a scary-powerful angel.  Getting a little girl to take his place would be worse than the actor switch for Ruby at the beginning of this season.


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## frankthedm (May 7, 2009)

new ep on tonight...


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## D.Shaffer (May 8, 2009)

Brotherly love at its finest. 
I dont think me and my brother ever took our fights to quite THAT level though.


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## Brown Jenkin (May 8, 2009)

Excelent run up to next weeks finale.


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## Merkuri (May 9, 2009)

Prediction:

[sblock]Lillith's job in breaking the last seal is to be killed by a human who drinks demon blood - something like that.  Basically Sam will break the last seal by killing her.

And either the angels really want Lucifer to rise for some reason, or Cas set Sam free in the hopes that Dean would be forced to confront and kill him.  I actually think the first is more likely.[/sblock]

You know, I always thought Lillith was a wimpy name for an uber demon until I happened to be browsing Wikipedia and found out that it was an actual historical demon name.

The Supernatural writers do always seem to do their homework, so I don't know why I was surprised at finding this out.  Anybody know of any historical demons named Ruby, out of curiosity?


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## Arnwyn (May 12, 2009)

Merkuri said:


> Anybody know of any historical demons named Ruby, out of curiosity?



I doubt it. According to the Supernatural story so far, Ruby was simply a human witch at one time long ago, and followed the 'typical' path to becoming a demon.


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## Merkuri (May 15, 2009)

Hah!  I called it! 

This was pretty much how I expected the season to end.  Does anyone know if next season is supposed to be the last?  Because I really can't see them going back to "normal" after armageddon.  Even if they manage to stop it and Earth goes back to normal (or never finds out) that's obviously going to be the climax of the show.


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## coyote6 (May 15, 2009)

Eric Kripke has said he sees going five seasons, so next year might be the last. I think they talked about it on one of the DVD sets.

There's also here, which points out that the show might go on without Kripke. Which might turn out poorly; shows don't often improve when the original creators leave, at least when they leave on top.


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## Merkuri (May 16, 2009)

As much as I love this show, I would be pleased as punch if they did an awesome climactic season 5 and ended it.  The bane of TV shows is that the folks in charge always want to push for more if the show is popular and they tend to drag shows out long after they should have come to a reasonable conclusion.  It's much better, in my opinion, if they plan an end and stick with it, rather than just stagger on for years and eventually peter out due to lack of interest.  Supernatural deserves better than that.

For example, I think Heroes should have been a mini-series.  One season, done.  It didn't need anything more.


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## Felon (May 16, 2009)

Preah it, Merk.

Five seasons is a good run for just about any show. Supernatural was pretty bland in its first or two season IMO, with too much focus on the father-son triangle, but seasons three and four were great stuff.


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## Crothian (May 16, 2009)

RPG is out now.


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## Krug (May 18, 2009)

Thought the last episode dragged out a bit, and the cliffhanger made me grind my teeth.  But on to next season...


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## Arnwyn (May 20, 2009)

Agree with the above posts.

Kill it after a rip-roaring Season 5.


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