# A good wizard/fighter build?



## Gundark (Jan 5, 2007)

is a wizard/fighter (or a sorcerer/fighter) build possible? How would you build him/her? 

I was thinking true strike combined with a greatsword plus power attack. True Strike is a verbal spell and thus not subject to arcane spell failure.


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## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

Eldritch Knight. Ftr1/Wiz5 or Ftr1/Sor6. 

Problem with True Strike: You can only power attack for your BAB. So it's fun at higher levels when you can Quicken it anyhow.

Actually someone posted a nice list of all verbal spells somewhere... to use it for these kind of chars... Could someone provide a link?


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## Destil (Jan 5, 2007)

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=472555

You can also use the spell search feature on sovelior's SRD: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/tools.html

Also, you can look at buffs with duarations mesured in hours, since you can cast thoes, then put your armor on.


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## Iku Rex (Jan 5, 2007)

Gundark said:
			
		

> is a wizard/fighter (or a sorcerer/fighter) build possible?



Yes.   


			
				Gundark said:
			
		

> How would you build him/her?



Depends on books available and the desired "feel". Usually, the more spellcasting levels the better.


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## Ivellious (Jan 5, 2007)

Or you could do a warmage from th complete arcana.


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## Thanee (Jan 5, 2007)

Ivellious said:
			
		

> Or you could do a warmage from th complete arcana.




Err... no!

Warmage is _not_ a fighter/mage.

The Battle Sorcerer from UA is, though.
Or the Duskblade from PHB II.

Eldritch Knight and/or Spellsword are a good start for a multiclass fighter/mage.
Currently playing an Elven Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 3, and I think it works very well.

Not as powerful as a pure Fighter without some serious buffing, but has more options with the spells, of course.

There are many decent combinations, though, Ftr or Brb or Rng or Pal all combine well with Sor or Wiz when you are heading towards EK (Pal2/Sor6/EK has nice attribute synergy).

Bye
Thanee


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## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

Think about taking the Stalwart sorcerer variant. And Improved Toughness.


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## maransreth (Jan 5, 2007)

Here is another option of Arcane Fighter - http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/book014.html .
This looks more at going straight mage and using only verbal spells.


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## Ashrum the Black (Jan 5, 2007)

Another option is the Jade Pheonix Mage from the Tome of Battle. I'm currently playing one and having a ton of fun in the AoW path. Gives you some of the nifty manuevers to play with, and full BAB for ten levels. You can get to it without taking anything but wiz/sorc levels as well. It just takes a little longer is all. 

-Ashrum


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## Li Shenron (Jan 5, 2007)

Gundark said:
			
		

> is a wizard/fighter (or a sorcerer/fighter) build possible? How would you build him/her?
> 
> I was thinking true strike combined with a greatsword plus power attack. True Strike is a verbal spell and thus not subject to arcane spell failure.




I think it's possible to do a decent combo by using core material only.

For example, 2 levels of Wizard or Sorcerer and the rest Fighter is going to make you lose only +1 BAB, a fighter bonus feat and a few hit points. But True Strike alone (which has no somatic component so you cast it in armor without ASF) a few times per day is going to be very useful. Other spells known could be Feather Fall (no somatic too) and then some useful out of combat/armor.


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## 2nd Ed Paladin (Jan 5, 2007)

An interesting elf only variant is the bladesinger PrC in CW. The prereqs are tricky to manage but it can be done by level 7 (maybe 6).  Gets INT to AC, full BaB, d8 HD(?) and 1/2 caster levels.  It is more of a fighter first than a caster though.  It won't be the most powerful PC but will hold its own.

If you use the elven racial substitution levels (can be found in Unearthed Arcaca or the SRD) the build is much more effective.


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## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

Core only, I found 3 levels of wizard especially for the roguish classes pretty intriguing. Lotsa nice spells (featherfall, invisibility, true strike, shield). Being able to cast Bulls strength on yourself might help with the BAB loss.

Eeks. One level of Bladesinger only looks pretty sick to me. And not even a limit to the Int to AC. Many prereq feats, this class has been written to make elven fighters surviveable.


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## szilard (Jan 5, 2007)

If you have access to Complete Mage, check out the Abjurant Champion. 

-Stuart


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## Magesmiley (Jan 5, 2007)

I haven't seen the runecaster (RoS) mentioned. It provides a way to ignore the arcane spell failure problems. You've got to be a dwarf though.


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## Gundark (Jan 5, 2007)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> I think it's possible to do a decent combo by using core material only.
> 
> For example, 2 levels of Wizard or Sorcerer and the rest Fighter is going to make you lose only +1 BAB, a fighter bonus feat and a few hit points. But True Strike alone (which has no somatic component so you cast it in armor without ASF) a few times per day is going to be very useful. Other spells known could be Feather Fall (no somatic too) and then some useful out of combat/armor.




Blur is a verbal only spell as well.


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## Mort (Jan 5, 2007)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> I think it's possible to do a decent combo by using core material only.
> 
> For example, 2 levels of Wizard or Sorcerer and the rest Fighter is going to make you lose only +1 BAB, a fighter bonus feat and a few hit points. But True Strike alone (which has no somatic component so you cast it in armor without ASF) a few times per day is going to be very useful. Other spells known could be Feather Fall (no somatic too) and then some useful out of combat/armor.




Correct me if I'm wrong but Eldritch Knight is core only as well, it just happens to be in the DMG.

If you're going with the 1-2 level dip, Sorcerer seems best - it greatly increases castings per day (and seems less cheesy than taking a specialist mage, which could approach that number).

But let's see:
core combo: fighter 1/wizard 6/Eldrich Knight X
non core: 
fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 1/Eldrich Knight X ( take out spell sword and Eldrich Knight and replace with Knight Phantom in Eberron)
duskblade

further non-core:
add Abjurant Champion for extra HP's (d10 per level), full BAB, full spellcasting progression, a hefty bonus when casting the spell: shield, and the ability to cast abjuration spells of up to 3rd level as swift spells.


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## The Grackle (Jan 5, 2007)

you want a wizard/fighter or a fighter/wizard?
I really like the battle sorcerer from UA.


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## Vuron (Jan 5, 2007)

Eldritch Knight is definitely the way to go under the core rules for higher end builds but it's sometimes a bear to get up to the levels where it begins to really shine over classes like the Duskblade.

If you want high end spellcasting plus full iterative attacks at 20 then the Eldritch Knight is the way to go, if you want ease of use and in many ways survivability the Duskblade is the better choice.


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## Thurbane (Jan 6, 2007)

Does anyone/has anyone use the Havoc Mage PrC from the Miniatures Handbook? Are it's abilties actually useful in play for a "gish"?


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## Sabathius42 (Jan 6, 2007)

I play a Fighter2/Warmage8/EldritchKnight2.

He can cast in full-plate and has an archer build selection of feats.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)
Weapon Focus (Greatbow)
Point-Blank Shot (useful for spells and arrows)
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot (useful for spells and arrows)
Improved Initiative
Armored Caster (lets you wear heavy armor without casting penalty)
Practiced Spellcaster (Warmage)
Smiting Spell (lets you cast touch spells though a weapon)


He is 2 spell levels behind the normal Warmage (I can cast 6/8/7/7/6) however due to Practiced Spellcaster, his caster level is still 12 so he isn't behind on damage dealt with the spells he does know.

When push comes to shove he can pop out his Frosty Greataxe and cut down some mooks, shoot arrows into some mooks, and cast spells at tough guys.  Bad guys tend to leave you alone when you have your Fire Shield AND Ring of Blades going at once.  In a couple more levels when he gets Tensers Transformation he can go totally-fighter if need be and already have the equipment handy to get use out of it.

DS


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jan 6, 2007)

Optimal builds (IMO):

Fighter 1/Wiz 6/Eldritch Knight 10 (Core only)

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10 (core only)

Core only tactics:

True Strike+Power Attack is nifty, but only helps you dish out more damage than simply attacking once (instead of casting true strike) and then attacking again when: 
A. the NPC is out of range in the first round but expected to be in range in the second, 
B. The NPC is difficult for you to hit whether through armor class, concealment miss chance, or mirror image.

It is often more useful for succeeding on an opposed attack roll such as a disarm or sunder attempt.

Other good core spells: 
Shield+two handed weapon. 
Ray of enfeeblement+improved trip or improved bull rush
Enlarge Person+Improved Trip/Bull Rush/Sunder/Disarm and/or combat reflexes and cleave

Alter Self+troglodyte form (or, if an Aasimar, alter self+nifty outsider forms)
mirror image
see invisibility (because most fighters can't see invisible foes on their own)
false life
Bull's strength was great in 3.0, but in 3.5 its short duration gives it a very short window of usefulness; usually, you'd be better off just attacking one more time.
Resist Energy

Greater Magic Weapon (primarily at higher levels)
heroism
blink
displacement
fly (an option most fighters don't have)
flame arrow (in the even that you're an archer)

Polymorph
greater invisibility
enervation (quite nice when used with opposed roll tactics such as trip, etc)
Dimension Door (the fighter/mage's grapple defense (other than blink that is))

With the first complete books, you add:

A more fighting than spellcasting focused option:
Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 10
Paladin 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 10

and an improvement to the spellcasting focused version:
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch KNight 10

You also add a number of options that seem like they should be good, but are really only marginal, even if maximally tweaked:
Hexblade
Suel Arcanamach
Bladesinger

You add one extremely useful feat:

Arcane Strike

and one sometimes useful feat (it gets more useful, the more caster levels you lose):
Practiced Spellcaster

You also add a bevy of useful spells:

Fist of Stone
Critical Strike
Master's Touch
Swift Expeditious Retreat
Lesser orb spells
guided shot
arrow mind

Swift Fly
Whirling blade
bladeweave (it sure looks like it could be good, but I've never had a character the right level to make it work)
wraithstrike (one of the most broken spells in any edition, so IMO, no sane DM should let you have it, and most players will agree as soon as it's busted out against their PCs but it is in the books)

Greater Blink (High level, but incredible for a fighting wizard)

Fires of Purity (high level, but soo good that you have to mention it)

Spell Compendium adds a number of spells that I never had the opportunity to properly play with:

Blades of fire (new and improved from complete book version)
Weaponshift

Sonic Weapon
Mountain Stance
Burning Sword
Fearsome Grapple
Heroics

Diamondsteel
Dragonskin
Spiderskin
Steeldance (mostly for the heinousness you can do with multiple magic weapons--at high levels, a pair of bane or wounding weapons could be pretty deadly)

Greater Resistance
Orb of X,Y,Z

Nightstalker's Transformation
Greater Enlarge Person

Stone Body

Reaving Dispel

Moving on to the PHB II:

you gain a new fighting focused magical class that is more straightforward:
Duskblade

You gain a few spells:
Blade of blood

Dimension Hop (the cheaper get out of grapple free card)
Electric Vengeance
Stretch Weapon

Crown of Might
Energy Surge (but only if you get really cheesy and chain it, then use telekinesis to toss all the weapons at an enemy)
Evard's Menacing Tentacles

Slashing Dispel
Greater Mirror Image
Toxic Weapon

Greater Electric Vengeance

Complete Mage, I haven't fully read, but it adds the incredible Abjurant Champion prestige class which takes pretty much everything about Eldritch Knight and Suel Arcanamach get, rolls them into one package, and ties them up with a bow. The only reason to play Eldritch Knight if it is available is because you ran out of abjurant champion levels.

I believe the Ebberon Campaign Setting also has Knight Phantom which is like Eldritch Knight, but gets a bunch of relatively minor bonus abilities and the major ability: it's a class other than Eldritch Knight so it lets you extend your progressions to level 20 without either giving up 9th level spells or going back to sorcerer or wizard.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 6, 2007)

One of my favorite spells for a Greatsword-using spellcaster is Whirling Blade.

Once the spell is cast, the spellcaster throws his edged weapon (here, the greatsword, but any edged weapon will do- even magical ones) and it attacks all targets within a 60' line at the caster's full BAB, which returns instantly to the caster's hand at the end of the spell's duration.  As I recall, the caster uses either his Str or his spellcasting stat's bonus to his attacks, whichever is best.

The only question you'd need to ask before using the combo (assuming you can use the spell) is whether the DM considers it an Area Effect spell or an Effect spell (its wording is reminiscent of both, and if it is the latter, its truly unique among WotC spells).  If its the former, choose Sculpt Spell as one of the PC's feats.

While its use against higher level opponents would be limited, its definitely a nice mooksweeper.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jan 6, 2007)

Actually, whirling blade is great against high level foes--at least when you actually mean high level foes rather than tough foes for your level.

A quickened whirling blade is a great 6th level spell because, not only does it work like a quickened lightning bolt with an attack roll rather than a save; it also can serve to get you another attack with arcane strike on a foe you just full attacked. Thus, the damage it does scales with your melee capability all the way into the stratosphere even while other 2nd level offensive spells remain mired in damage caps and low save DCs.

Arcane Strike the highest level spell you can spare and full attack with haste. Ordinarily you'd be done, but a quickened whirling blade lets you make another attack with the arcane strike attack and damage bonus (and fires of purity too if you managed to get that off before combat) against the enemy you just full attacked... and you get to attack any of his friends that you can catch in the line too. An extra 2d6+14+2d6 (holy) +1 con +7d4 (arcane strike) +14 (7 points of Power Attack, replacing the attack bonus from Arcane Strike)  +15 fire (fires of purity (note the nerfed Spell Compendium version in use--not the Complete Divine version that I would empower with a rod of empower spell for (1d6+15)1.5 or about 27 points of damage on average)--total average: 74.5 +1 con. That's not just a mook sweeper, even at 15th-17th level. Without fires of purity, it's still pretty darn good at 59.5 average damage. (Note that the damage above assumes a +1 holy wounding greatsword greater magic weaponed up to +4 wielded by a character with a 24 intelligence who gets 1.5 intelligence damage with a 2-handed weapon during whirling blade (the last bit being perhaps questionable rules-wise)).

That's much more than a mook-sweeper. That's pretty darn good output for a 6th level slot spent for a swift action.

Heck, it's often worth the 7th level spell, 6th level spell, and 2nd level spell it costs to do that twice by just Arcane Striking and casting whirling blade and following it up with a quickened whirling blade.



			
				Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> While its use against higher level opponents would be limited, its definitely a nice mooksweeper.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 6, 2007)

My comment about usefulness vs higher-level NPCs was in regards to things like Globes of Invulnerability or other effects that would prevent a 2nd level spell from affecting them.

OTOH, If you put it in the hands of a Giant Barbarian/Sorcerer aiming his 2-Handed Battleaxe aiming at a party coming up a hallway at him...


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## Iku Rex (Jan 6, 2007)

Good post as usual Elder-Basilisk. Some thoughts: 

Core spells: 

Polymorph! deserves an exclamation mark. It is the most broken spell available to a fighter/mage. Annis hag, troll, treant or stone giant form makes you big, strong and almost invulnerable. Throw in a hydra form for lots of attacks. 

Haste - Extra attack for you and everyone else.
Stoneskin and fire shield - Both excellent spells, deserve mention.
Overland flight - 1 hour/level fly, less speed. 
Tenser's transformation - Keeps you from casting spells (bad), but can add a lot for a melee mage with a low BAB. 
Iron body - 50% ASF, but can make you _very_ hard to hurt
Shapechange - The ultimate buff spell.


			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> With the first complete books, you add:
> 
> A more fighting than spellcasting focused option:
> Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 10
> Paladin 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 10



I really don't like more than one level of spellsword (for the "free" BAB and reduced ASF). You give up too much spellcasting for too little benefit.

Non-core prestige classes: 
Master Transmorgifist (CArc) - Low on spellcasting, but offers some nifty abilities for a polymorph expert, especially on higher levels.
Recaster (RacEbb) - Changeling only. You loose one spellcasting level but get some decent options and (!) you get to add two spells from any spell list to your spells known. Divine power is a given, divine favor, righteous might or conviction (SC) are candidates for the second. I'm sure there are others. (Fiend-Blooded from Heroes of Horror has a similar ability, but it's restricted to Illusion, Enchantment and Necromancy spells. Not sure what to pick then.)  
Runesmith (RacSto) - Cast in armor. Good for a mystic theurge. 
Jade Phoenix Mage (Tome of Battle) - You loose two spellcasting levels, but it has full BAB and good class abilities. 
Raumathari Battlemage (UnnaprEast) - Medium BAB, channel spells through sword. You loose one spellcasting level at lv 5, so four level dip ideal.
Sacred Exorcist (CDiv) - Medium BAB and turn undead - sorcerer with Divine Might feat!

As for class options the stalwart sorcerer or focused specialist from Complete MAge are good for melee mages. 

Non-core spells you didn't mention: 

Spell compendium: 
Neverskitter (lv1) - Easy Init bonus
Girallon's blessing (lv 3) - Lots of attacks. Add fuse arms (lv2) for a 10 min/level unnamed +4 Str bonus or just go nuts with wraithstrike for lots of damage. 
Greater mage armor (lv3) - 2 AC may not seem like much compared to mage armor, but can be good if already high AC. 
Elemental body (lv7) - Lasts 24h. Great buff. 

Races of the Dragon:
Wings of the dragon (lv2) - Total cover as immediate action. Sorcerer only. Must have if DM allows.
Greater mighty wallop (lv3) - More damage bludgeoning weapon.

Complete Mage:
Dimension Jumper (lv5) - Swift action, short teleports as move action for 1 round/level. Can attack after teleport. 9th level version too - teleport as swift action. 
Heart of [Element] - 1 hour/level spells, minor bonuses, fortification, activate other spell (feather fall, stoneskin, fire shield, freedom of movement) as immediate or swift action one round/level (ends spell).
Karmic aura/backlash/retribution (lv1,3,6) - swift action, attacker becomes fatigued/exhausted/stunned if fail Will save.
Unicorn [X] (lv 3,5,7) - three unicorn themed spells with varying duration that grant bonuses and synergy effects together. 

Draconomicon:
Draconic polymorph - Polymorph with +8 Str/+2 Con.

Champions of Valor.
Skin of the steel dragon - SR as immediate action.


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## Sabathius42 (Jan 9, 2007)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> One of my favorite spells for a Greatsword-using spellcaster is Whirling Blade.




I have a greataxe wielding spellcaster with that spell available but never see why I would want to cast this instead of Lightning Bolt.

DS


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## silentspace (Jan 9, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> I have a greataxe wielding spellcaster with that spell available but never see why I would want to cast this instead of Lightning Bolt.




Because it's a lower level?


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## Dross (Jan 9, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Eeks. One level of Bladesinger only looks pretty sick to me. *And not even a limit to the Int to AC.* Many prereq feats, this class has been written to make elven fighters surviveable.




I think that the CW Bladesingers INT bonus to AC goes only as high as your BS levels.


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## rgard (Jan 9, 2007)

The Grackle said:
			
		

> you want a wizard/fighter or a fighter/wizard?
> I really like the battle sorcerer from UA.




Yes, it's a great class.  I multiclassed mine with 3 lvls of swashbuckler.  Also took a bloodline feat from the Dragon compendium and the Focus Item feat Unfamilar Territory article in the Dragon.


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## Votan (Jan 9, 2007)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> Complete Mage, I haven't fully read, but it adds the incredible Abjurant Champion prestige class which takes pretty much everything about Eldritch Knight and Suel Arcanamach get, rolls them into one package, and ties them up with a bow. The only reason to play Eldritch Knight if it is available is because you ran out of abjurant champion levels.




Am I the only person who wishes that there were another 5 levels of Abjurant Champion included in the book.  Even without the abilities, the d10 hp and full caster progression are nice.  Another 5 levels might extend some of those great abilities and increase class features like quickening abjuration spells.


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## Sabathius42 (Jan 9, 2007)

silentspace said:
			
		

> Because it's a lower level?




My bad!

All my 2nd level slots are used for Scorching Ray, so I still have yet to cast it.

DS


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## Blightersbane (Jan 10, 2007)

along the lines of spell casting melee classes what about the, the the curseblade guy who's name I can't recall? He saves vs. fort and will as a rogue does reflex and has full bab with a sub par spell selecting he can curse, Hexblade there it is.

Whats the word on this class? ( I have never played one)

Blightersbane


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## frankthedm (Jan 10, 2007)

Blightersbane said:
			
		

> He saves vs. fort and will as a rogue does reflex and has full bab with a sub par spell selecting he can curse, Hexblade there it is.
> 
> Whats the word on this class? ( I have never played one)



The Hexblade is a nicely balanced class that aproximates a specailist caster focused on debuffing /curses evenly multiclassed with a Fighter, made with the rules at the time.  He suffers from how this Edtion punishes those who do not focus. Think fighter 5 wizard 5 without practiced spellcaster around. Some also feel he suffers since there were few free/swift action spells available.

He has some intresting special abilities, but they cost him in direct _Charater Powah!_.

As oposed to the duskblade who gets full bab and a lot of spellsper day for sacrificing almost all spellcasting versatility.


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## wildstarsreach (Jan 10, 2007)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Err... no!
> 
> Warmage is _not_ a fighter/mage.
> 
> ...




The Duskblade is effective from 1 to 20th level if you don't mind the limited spells and spell level with a BA 20/15/10/5.

To 20 a W7/F2/Spellsword1/Eld Knt10 is effective with a BA 16/11/6/1 with 9th level spells.

You could try F2/W8/Bladesinger10 with a BA of 16/11/6/1 with 7th level spells.


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## szilard (Jan 10, 2007)

The more I think of it, the more I want to try a melee-focused Battle Sorcerer who loads up on self-buffing spells and swift/immediate spells... maybe mixing in 1-4 levels of fighter. 

-Stuart


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jan 11, 2007)

1. Because it does more damage--at least at high levels.

Lightning bolt=5-10d6 damage, averaging 17.5-35 with a save for half.

Whirling Blade=weapon damage+int or cha bonus+weapon abilities+feats with an attack roll
If we assume a greatsword wielding wizard with a 20 int at 8th level (about when the eldritch Knight could start casting lightning bolts) and a +1 frost weapon, without power Attack, that's 16.5 points of average damage on a successful hit. It's not quite 21 points (or 28 points with practiced spellcaster) that the lightning bolt nets, but it's a 2nd level spell. Now, let's say the character is fighting something with a low AC and he power attacks for five points. Now it's 26.5 points of average damage on a successful attack. Not bad for a 2nd level spell vis a vis a 3rd level spell. If you figure that a two handed weapon gets 1.5 Int bonus, it's 18.5 and 28.5 damage.

But if you really want to see the benefit, crank it up a notch: A 17th level wizard with a +1 holy wounding greatsword greater magic weaponed up to +4 and a 24 Int.

Average damage from a straight-up whirling blade without Power Attack: 25 points of damage and 1 point of Con.

Against foes with low AC, he Power Attacks with abandon (14 point Power Attack) and does an average of 49 points of damage +1 Con.

2. Because it only damages enemies. You can't (usually) lightning bolt through your friends without hurting them. You can whirling blade through them.

3. Because it can be dramatically boosted in power by expending more resources.

Remember those Eldritch Knights we discussed before? Lets say the first guy really needs to drop a line of orcs. If he casts lighning bolt, he gets his 28 or 14 damage and that's as good as he can do. On the other hand, he can use a first level slot to cast blades of fire and now he's doing 23 points of damage without Power Attack or 33 points of damage with Power Attack. 

If he wants to go all out, he can use Arcane Strike to sacrifice a third level spell and do an average of 30.5 damage without Power Attack or 40.5 damage with Power Attack.

The 17th level Eldritch Knight can do much better than that: If he has fires of purity and drops an 8th level spell, he does 60 points of damage +1 con without Power attack and 88 +1 con points of damage with full Power Attack. If he has other buffs (sonic weapon, etc) active, it will go even higher.

With lightning bolt, you get a lightning bolt. With whirling blade, you have the ability to dump a bunch of resources and get a super whirling blade.

4. Because it doesn't suffer from energy resistance or Spell Resistance.

Fighting demons? Casting electrical damage is a waste, but whirling blade will damage them every time (as long as you have the right kind of weapon). In general, a melee focused fighter/mage will have an easier time penetrating DR than either SR or energy resistance.

5. Because whirling blade operates on an attack roll rather than a saving throw. Maybe at 6th level, it's easier to get a foe to fail a save than it is to hit them in melee. By mid levels, however, the attack roll will often be a near auto-hit even with a fair amount of Power Attack. On the other hand, saving throws escalate fast enough that its rarely more than a 30% chance your enemy will take full damage. And lightning bolt allows evasion too.

6. Because whirling blade is improved by the feats and equipment choices that a fighter/mage already makes in order to be a good fighter/mage. Lighting bolt is not improved by those feats or equipment and, indeed competes with melee combat for feat selection. Got Greater Spell Focus: Evocation and Spell Penetration and a 3rd level pearl of power? You'll get more out of lightning bolt. Got Power Attack, Improved Critical, and a +1 keen shock falchion of wounding? You'll get more out of whirling blade. For a fighter/mage, the second feat/equipment selection is a more generally advantageous one than the first.



			
				Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> I have a greataxe wielding spellcaster with that spell available but never see why I would want to cast this instead of Lightning Bolt.
> 
> DS


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## Li Shenron (Jan 11, 2007)

Gundark said:
			
		

> Blur is a verbal only spell as well.




I thought about that as well, but it's 2nd level, so it would require at least 1 more level of Wizard and 2 of Sorcerer, so it has a cost of another +1 BAB.


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## Li Shenron (Jan 11, 2007)

Mort said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong but Eldritch Knight is core only as well, it just happens to be in the DMG.




Of course... it's just my bad habit of thinking only in terms of 3.0. But anyway I believe that a decent build is possible without Eldritch Knight, tho most people would disagree with my idea of "decent build".


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## wildstarsreach (Jan 11, 2007)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> Of course... it's just my bad habit of thinking only in terms of 3.0. But anyway I believe that a decent build is possible without Eldritch Knight, tho most people would disagree with my idea of "decent build".




Let me see.  I think that a decent build is to have 4 attacks and 9th level spells.  Unfortunately I've only seen that with Eldrich Knight/Wizard Combo.  Maybe someone know a sorcerer build but I haven't seen it unless you are 21st level.


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## ainbimagh (Jan 11, 2007)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Let me see.  I think that a decent build is to have 4 attacks and 9th level spells.  Unfortunately I've only seen that with Eldrich Knight/Wizard Combo.  Maybe someone know a sorcerer build but I haven't seen it unless you are 21st level.




I had a DMM cleric/wizard mystic thuerge that had 9th level spells and full bab from cleric spells.  With some good counterspell feats you can stop the dispel magics.

Here's a quick one.

Human
7 wizard, 3 cleric, 10 Mystic Theurge

Some good Feat choices
Extra Turning
Extend Spell
Persistant Spell
DMM Persistant Spell
Improved Counterspell
Reactive Counterspell
Dampen Spell
Epic Counterspelling
Heighten Spell
Quicken Spell
Sudden Quicken Spell
Still Spell

Persistant Divine Power nets you full bab
Quickened spells allow you to toss around magic while getting full rounds of attacks in, and you've got a SLEW of beneficial spells from cleric side to buff up with inside full armor, And can make quite a few spells stilled from the wizard side.


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## Jon Potter (Jan 11, 2007)

Thurbane said:
			
		

> Does anyone/has anyone use the Havoc Mage PrC from the Miniatures Handbook? Are it's abilties actually useful in play for a "gish"?




I've got one in my game. It's a nice "dip class", but the reduced spellcasting is a bummer.

The Battlecasting is quite useful even at first level where you can Battlecast True Strike and then Power Attack with your greatsword all in the same round. I realize that you could accomplish close to the same thing with a Quickened True Strike, but the Havoc Mage can accomplish it with a first level slot.

The biggest drawback is provoking the AoO when you're casting in the thick of things.  :\


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