# Weapon Finesse with longsword?



## Phaedrus (Mar 20, 2003)

Convince me not to allow Weapon Finesse to work with a longsword.  What's the downside?

(and no posts about rule zero, please).

I notice in Wheel of Time D20 that Weapon Finesse works with a Warder's Sword, which is a bastard sword equivalent (provided you can use it one-handed).  Why allow this, if not a longsword (and a bunch of other weapons, too)?


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## Lord Ravinous (Mar 20, 2003)

Like the Quarterstaff


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## Crothian (Mar 20, 2003)

Are you in the WoT setting?  If so it would be fine as that's a lower magic setting so allowing finess with more powerful weapons would be okay.


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## CRGreathouse (Mar 20, 2003)

It's not an ability given in the PH, or any other WotC book, as a feat.

It's not in the Epic Level Handbook as an epic feat.  (Epic feats are like normal feats, but more powerful.)

The WotC website epic feat Wield Oversized Weapon has a specific exception so this isn't possible.

It's in D&Dg as a salient divine ability.  (SDAs are generally several epic feats combined, often with an ability that can't be duplicated by mortals.)


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## Khorod (Mar 20, 2003)

The Weapon Master in OA also grants a finesse-like thing with a chosen weapon.

It looks like Weapon Finesse is not supposed to apply to large weapons, because the finesse angle is outweighed by the need for strength.  However, there are a few special exceptions around for special experts.

I wouldn't let Weapon Finesse apply straight up to Long Sword because its such a strong weapon- if Weapon Finesse worked, why would the fast guy ever choose rapier?

A prestige class that allow it would probably be okay.


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## comrade raoul (Mar 20, 2003)

Let's not go overboard: mechanically the longsword is just a rapier with a different damage type, that trades a point of threat range for a point of damage. These aren't radically different weapons, and any balance differences will be subtle.

At high levels, where a point of base critical threat range starts to matter more than a point of damage, longswords are weaker than rapiers; the ability to take finesse with them shouldn't break any games. At low levels, the point of extra damage is more significant. It'd be slightly more powerful, but probably not game-breaking.

So I think the reasons to disallow finesse with longswords are conceptual, not mechanical. If the DM feels that it's conceptually appropriate for his setting (perhaps it's wuxia-inspired, or something), then I'd suggest he allow it.


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## Cyraneth (Mar 20, 2003)

If it's a problem, just take up the thinblade.. It's a weapon from Dragon that has all the properties of a rapier (including finesse) and deals 1d8 points of damage.

- Cyraneth


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## FreeTheSlaves (Mar 20, 2003)

I wouldn't have a problem with a player wanting to weapon finesse a longsword. More the question why? Archer? Sure, why not, soon going to introduce a rule where enhancements won't stack. Better prepare a bribe.

We roll organic and the fighters always swap that strength.


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## Enkhidu (Mar 20, 2003)

I'd not allow longswords to be finessed by medium creatures because longswords are heavy bladed slashing weapons (historically called broadswords). Light blades of the same dimensions (used more for peircing than for slashing) are aptly described as rapiers.

Put more succinctly - rapiers don't necessarily all have cup or wire hilts: The sword in the movie _Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon_, for example, was more appropriately modeled as a rapier than a longsword.


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## Xeriar (Mar 20, 2003)

Enkhidu said:
			
		

> I'd not allow longswords to be finessed by medium creatures because longswords are heavy bladed slashing weapons (historically called broadswords).




They were called hand-and-a-half swords.  Broadswords were weapons with a single edge.

Hand-and-a-half swords were called such because, when facing heavily armored opponents, you would wrap your hand around the hilt & bottom of the blade and thrust (ie, pierce).



> Light blades of the same dimensions (used more for peircing than for slashing) are aptly described as rapiers.




Rapiers are significantly longer, as in a foot or two longer.   And they could slash, too.



> Put more succinctly - rapiers don't necessarily all have cup or wire hilts:




Dealing with different periods, and different types of steel, stuff like this will vary.  D&D is not about bothering with the mechanics of this type of thing.


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## Enkhidu (Mar 20, 2003)

Xeriar said:
			
		

> *Dealing with different periods, and different types of steel, stuff like this will vary.  D&D is not about bothering with the mechanics of this type of thing. *




Exactly! Which is why we don't have hand-and-a-half swords - we have bastard swords (usable either one or two handed - though when used against heavily armored opponents they were used more for creasing armor in order to break bones than for piercing). Likewise, we don't have to have separate mechanics for cup hilted rapiers and trifoil blades - each is succesfully modeled with the "rapier" mechanic in d20.

Or - it doesn't matter what you call it: if a straight blade is about a meter long and used primarily for swinging then use long sword stats, and if its used primarily for poking then use rapier stats. One is finessable, as it relies more on precison aiming to guide the point home (or so they seem to think - personally I think you could say the same for spears).


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## Staffan (Mar 20, 2003)

Cyraneth said:
			
		

> *If it's a problem, just take up the thinblade.. It's a weapon from Dragon that has all the properties of a rapier (including finesse) and deals 1d8 points of damage. *



It's also an exotic weapon, which balances things out.


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## Mike Sullivan (Mar 20, 2003)

comrade raoul said:
			
		

> *Let's not go overboard: mechanically the longsword is just a rapier with a different damage type, that trades a point of threat range for a point of damage. These aren't radically different weapons, and any balance differences will be subtle.
> 
> At high levels, where a point of base critical threat range starts to matter more than a point of damage, longswords are weaker than rapiers; the ability to take finesse with them shouldn't break any games. At low levels, the point of extra damage is more significant. It'd be slightly more powerful, but probably not game-breaking.*




Having run the math, let me say that it's astonishingly difficult for a rapier to ever quite equal a longsword in terms of damage dealing.  You need both _keen_ and improved crit, and then a plethora of damage bonuses.

That said, the difference between them is relatively small -- less than a point of damage on average.


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## LeifVignirsson (Mar 20, 2003)

There are PrC's and feats that will allow that type of familiarity for a long sword in order to use it via Weapon Finesse, but I have to agree with the general prinicple that a long sword could NOT be used in a finesse style for a medium sized character WITHOUT proper training.  

This is why if you dedicate yourself to a certain weapon, you should be more and more familiar with it's threshold of tolerence for a particualr maneuver .  You just can't take Billie Bob off the street, give him a long sword and say, _Give me a triple twist slash with an emphatic lunge_, just like you couldn't give Jake a herring and tell him to chop down the mightiest tree in the forest, it just can't be done... Sorry, got off on a Monty Python kick there...

I have weilded both and I can say that I could not do the same thing with one that I could with the other, and I have been doing this for a few years now.  We also have to remember that these weapons are from different eras with different social parameters that made them the best weapon for their ages.  

Anyway, seeing that it is still _House rules are house rules_, then we can't tell you no, you can't use Weapon Finesse.  I wouldn't feel comfortable with it myself, but it is a different point of view, I guess.


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## Phaedrus (Mar 20, 2003)

Thanks to all of you for your responses.

I've decided not to allow it.  If the player wants to spend an exotic proficiency on the thinblade then so be it.  That or go with the rapier.


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## Azlan (Mar 23, 2003)

Enkhidu said:
			
		

> *I'd not allow longswords to be finessed by medium creatures because longswords are heavy bladed slashing weapons (historically called broadswords).*




Technically, wasn't a "broadsword" the type of 16th/17th Century sword that MacGregor wielded against the fop-duelist, at the end of the movie, Rob Roy? Its double-edged blade is similar to a longsword's, only a bit more slender and less tapering at its tip, and it has a basket-hilt. (This is what I picture an "elven thinblade" to be.)

I know that when most D&D players hear the term "broadsword", they picture a longsword with a slightly broader blade (especially at its tip). But every Medieval/Renaissance weapons history book that I have pictures a broadsword as the type I decribed in my first paragraph.

Anyway, I allow Weapon Finesse to be used with longswords (and with shortswords, for that matter) in my campaigns. I believe it makes sense to do so, and it does not unbalance the game in any way. A longsword is not at all a heavy weapon in the hand of a medium character.


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## Mike Sullivan (Mar 23, 2003)

Azlan said:
			
		

> *Anyway, I allow Weapon Finesse to be used with longswords (and with shortswords, for that matter) in my campaigns.*




Er, can't you always finesse shortswords (if you're size medium)?


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## Ruvion (Mar 24, 2003)

IMC I made a feat that enables a character to finesse a weapon that is the same size as his body size (namely finessing a medium-sized weapon for a size medium creature).



> *Finesse Specialization* [General, Fighter]*:* Even large and seemingly ungainly weapons become like extensions of your arm.
> *Benefit:* Allows you to Weapon Finesse or Natural Finesse any melee weapons that are the same size category as your body size.  You can also Weapon Finesse or Natural Finesse “double weapons” or "finesseable weapons” that are one size larger than your body size.  Bulky and weighty weapons (ie: axe, hammer, etc) are not suitable for finesse.  This feat should not be confused with Weapon Finesse feat or Natural Finesse feat:  For example, you must take the Weapon Finesse (long sword) feat in addition to the Finesse Specialization feat in order to use long swords with finesse.
> *Prerequisites:* STR 15+, Base Attack Bonus +1, Proficient with weapon.


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## Kraedin (Mar 24, 2003)

WotC obviously dosn't consider being finessable something important.  I mean, the rapier is identical to the scimitar, except for that the rapier is finesseble.  It doesn't make any difference if you allow Weapon Finesse to work with a longsword.


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## Mike Sullivan (Mar 24, 2003)

Kraedin said:
			
		

> *WotC obviously dosn't consider being finessable something important.  I mean, the rapier is identical to the scimitar, except for that the rapier is finesseble.  It doesn't make any difference if you allow Weapon Finesse to work with a longsword. *




Rapiers are piercing, scimitars are slashing.  This isn't generally a big deal, except that large-crith-thresh weapons are very well-suited to the Vorpal enchantment -- and only slashing weapons can take the Verpal enchantment.

So, yeah, I'd say that being finesseable is a generally small deal, and certainly nobody's game is going to be broken because somebody weapon finessed a long-sword -- or a Halberd, for that matter.


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## Khorod (Mar 24, 2003)

No, mechanically it won't break anything.
But it does upset the flavor of the weapons.  What's the point of including both a rapier and a longsword in the game if they're the same?  

If you want lots of subtely different weapons around, you're forgetting to include the Broadsword, Claymore, and so on.  The weapons in the DMG are more or less meant to represent all manner of different weapons, and I would question the inclusion of some of them if Weapon Finesse were opened up.

The only real need to do so is for people that want a high Dex, and to set aside strength.  A high dex, swashbuckling campaign could certainly get away with it.  When trying to keep a swashbuckler and a brawny barbarian in the same room, you should try to stick by the finesse line so the characters have some balanced, mechanical differences.

Of course, High Fantasy is the sort to disregard such things.


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## Frostmarrow (Mar 25, 2003)

Really, if all you want is to finesse-wield a longsword, just limit the damage of the longsword (in this style) to 1d6. This marks that you are just using the longsword for flavor, not for the extra punch. (It still carries advantages though, as magical longswords are more common than any other magical ones.)

Just a suggestion.


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## Azlan (Mar 25, 2003)

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> *Really, if all you want is to finesse-wield a longsword, just limit the damage of the longsword (in this style) to 1d6. This marks that you are just using the longsword for flavor, not for the extra punch.*




Myself, I don't think this is necessary.

A longsword has d8 damage, with a critical of 19-20/x2. A rapier has d6 damage, with a critical of 18-20/x2. Which is better, the longsword or the rapier?

I say they're fairly balanced, especially when you consider the possibilities of the Improved Criticals feat and the Keen enchantment for use with the rapier.

I've allowed Weapon Finesse to be used with longswords for the past two years, in my 3E D&D campaigns; and, really, it does not unbalance the campaign at all or give any unfair advantage.


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## Mike Sullivan (Mar 25, 2003)

Azlan said:
			
		

> *Myself, I don't think this is necessary.
> 
> A longsword has d8 damage, with a critical of 19-20/x2. A rapier has d6 damage, with a critical of 18-20/x3. Which is better, the longsword or the rapier?
> 
> I say they're fairly balanced, especially when you consider the possibilities of the Improved Criticals feat and the Keen enchantment for use with the rapier.*




Average damage with a normal longsword with no damage bonus (including possibility of criticals): 4.95

Average damage with a normal rapier with no damage bonus (including possibility of criticals): 4.025

Average damage with a normal longsword with a +5 damage bonus (including possibility of criticals): 10.45

Average damage with a normal rapier with a +5 damage bonus (including possibility of criticals: 9.775

Average damage with a normal longsword with a +10 damage bonus (including possibility of criticals): 15.95

Average damage with a normal rapier with a +10 damage bonus (including possibility of criticals): 15.525

Average damage with a _Keen_, improved critical longsword with a +5 damage bonus: 12.35

Average damage with a _Keen_, improved critical rapier with a +5 damage bonus: 12.325

Average damage with a _Keen_, improved critical longsword with a +10 damage bonus: 18.85

Average damage with a _Keen_, improved critical rapier with a +10 damage bonus: *19.575*

_BUT_

Average damage with an improved critical longsword with a +12 damage bonus: *19.8*



What's all that come down to?  Basically, there's not a whole lot of difference between a longsword and a rapier at reasonable levels -- the longsword is slightly superior.  At high damage bonuses, a _Keen_ rapier wielded by someone with Improved Critical will do more damage than a _Keen_ longsword, but if you just take the +2 enhancement that Keen is supposedly worth, on the longsword, you come out miles ahead (especially when you factor in increased chance to hit as well, but even on pure damage).  So only after you're already dealing with weapons that are +5 to hit and damage (perhaps due to GMW) do rapiers start to exceed the longsword -- and, of course, then only when the target is susceptible to critical hits, and assuming that your attack bonus is high enough that you don't "waste" any of the rapier's critical range (unlikely with your tertiary attack, by the way).

But the difference between 'em is pretty small.  Longsword is a better weapon for people below around 15th level, but not an _overwhelmingly_ better weapon.


EDIT:  Oh, by the way, I assume you know this and just typoed, but the rapier is 18-20/x2, not 18-20/x3.


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## nute (Mar 25, 2003)

Easy solution - have the character get a longsword made of mithril. Carries it and uses it for the better part of a level, at the next level he gains a feat, he's eligible to grab Weapon Finesse (mithril longsword).


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## Anubis (Mar 25, 2003)

Xeriar said:
			
		

> *
> They were called hand-and-a-half swords.  Broadswords were weapons with a single edge.
> *




The claymore was one of the original "hand-and-a-half" swords.  Neither the braodsword nor the longsword were.



			
				Xeriar said:
			
		

> *
> Rapiers are significantly longer, as in a foot or two longer.   And they could slash, too.
> *




No, a real rapier is a piercing weapon only, one step above a foil and able to do real damage.  You are thinking of the sabre, which is technically a slashing/piercing variant of the rapier.



			
				Xeriar said:
			
		

> *
> Dealing with different periods, and different types of steel, stuff like this will vary.  D&D is not about bothering with the mechanics of this type of thing. *




That much is true.  For the question at hand, I would say it's no allowed because the rules says so and because of realism.  You wouldn't see someone "finesse" with a broadsword, so the same goes for a longsword.  It's for light weapons only.  A LARGE character could finesse a longsword, but not a Medium.


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