# Continual Flame and Market price Ever burning Items?



## melkoriii (Oct 2, 2003)

SO I got a scroll of Continual Flame so I could make Ever Burning Torches for my fellow night blind party members.

And realized that it only cost 50gp to make a Ever Burning Torch BUT its Market price is 1000gp (Though I cant find them in the SRD)

As a 4th lvl Wizard with an effective INT of 22, I can make 4 of these a day.  More if I use my Pearl of Power.

How would you price one of these torches?

Also

I have taken a Gray Iuon stone and cast CF on it.  How much would you charge Market for this item as it makes a torch hands free.


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## reiella (Oct 2, 2003)

Simple answer, that isn't an everburning torch, it's a torch that happens to burn forever .

One Dispel, or pass through anti-magic field and it stops forever, unlike the items, which will still work.


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## AuraSeer (Oct 2, 2003)

An "everburning torch" isn't a regular magic item. It's just some random stick with a spell cast on it. Assuming that you get the stick for free, market price is just the cost for having the spell cast.

Hiring someone to cast a spell costs (10 gp x caster level x spell level), plus material components. For _continual flame_ cast by a Wiz3, this works out to 110 gp.

So, assuming you can get sticks for free, you should expect to sell "everburning torches" for 110 gp.

The burned out ioun stone is not priced in 3.5. If your DM lets you keep the 3.0 price of 25 gp, the market price of a gray ioun stone with _continual flame_ on it is 135 gp.


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## Xavim (Oct 2, 2003)

Note: That since Continual Flame is a permanent effect it would resume its normal illumenating behaviours when removed from the anti-magic.  However, dispel magic would still be effective.


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## jgsugden (Oct 2, 2003)

melkoriii said:
			
		

> I have taken a Gray Iuon stone and cast CF on it.  How much would you charge Market for this item as it makes a torch hands free.




This sounds like a good idea, but it is really not a good idea. Take the lampshgade off a lamp. Take the lamp in a dark room and plug it in. Turn off the other lights. Wait a few minutes for your eyes to adjust to the dark a bit. Now, turn on the light and pass that bulb in front of your eyes, about two feet away from your head. 

OK. Don't really do this. You might hurt yourself, but you can imagine my point.

At the minimum, your should suffer the light sensitivity penalties that an orc suffers in normal light. In addition, I'd consider you distracted for any purposes that require concentration or have an option for distracted beings (listen checks, a concentration check for spellcasting, etc ...) 

As for a price, 25 gold seems too cheap for a floating ioun stone. You'd figure the demand for them would drive their price up a bit. Now that there is no official proce for them anymore, I'd suggest a base price of 500 gold or so. When you add in the spell, I'd bump it up to 610.


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## Corwin (Oct 3, 2003)

In a fledgling campaign, I recently started playing a human cleric/fighter with a fire affinity/motif. Planning on going Flame Steward soon, BTW. 

Anyway, we just barely made 5th-level and he still doesn't have a magic weapon. But his masterwork bastardsword has had _continual flame_ on the blade since we started the game.

Aside from the niftiness of it, he gets to carry his "torch" around without needing an extra hand. Works reall well.

Can't wait to get my hands on a real flaming sword, though.


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## melkoriii (Oct 3, 2003)

The two fighters (Cleric/Fighter,  Monk) in my party now have there weapons with CF cast on them.

jgsugden

Why would you price the Gray Ioun stone at 500gp?  It has no effect at all.

Also there is nothing in the rules that state the penaties you would give for this good use of the spell and a useless item.

To each there own.


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## Saeviomagy (Oct 3, 2003)

jgsugden said:
			
		

> OK. Don't really do this. You might hurt yourself, but you can imagine my point.



Now point out where in the rules it says that an Ioun stone passes through your LOS?

I daresay that such an event, even from a non-flaming version, would be irritating, yet the rules make no bones about it.

The solution is just to assume that the ioun stone keeps out of the way.


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## jgsugden (Oct 3, 2003)

melkoriii said:
			
		

> Why would you price the Gray Ioun stone at 500gp?  It has no effect at all.



It floats by itself. That is pretty nifty. 

Pretend that you could go down to the 'Sharper Image' store and buy a stone that floated around your head for $500.00. You might not buy it, but a lot of people would. There is a limited supply of these things, so demand should drive the price up.

Alternatively, think of them as using a levitation spell to float. An item that reproduces a 2nd level spell should be at least a 1000 gold. Then, you discuount it for the lack of other uses it might create.


			
				melkoriii said:
			
		

> Also there is nothing in the rules that state the penaties you would give for this good use of the spell and a useless item.



Yes, there is. Look at the 3.5 DMG page 6, column 2, paragraph 2. * 'Often a situation will arise that isn't explicitly covered by the rules. In such a situation, you need to provide guidance as to how it should be resolved.' *

As the DM, if I see a situation that is not covered by the rules, but deserves some game impact, it is my duty to figure out something that works. If you have a bright light pass in front of your eyes every few seconds, it should have some effect on the you.


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## FoxWander (Oct 3, 2003)

He's got a point about the annoyingness of having a flame spinning around your head. I'd have to think that ioun stones usually stay out of your line of sight, at least until you tilt your head to look at them- otherwise how would you ever catch them to put them away if you wanted. But if you turned one of them into an orbiting ball of flame it would have to be distracting, or at least annoying. Plus, have you ever tried to actually navigate a dark area by torch light? The lights unsteady enough just by virtue of being fire, but if you were to spin your torch in a 2 foot circle constantly you'd drive yourself, and certainly your fellow party members, insane! And that's not even including the extra attention it would draw from monsters and such. 

Now if you could somehow get rid of the *orbiting* aspect of that stone it'd be an extra spiffy thing to have!   Maybe you can talk your DM into ruling that way. After all it's "burnt out" it shouldn't spin around any more, right? Of course, that's just as likely to bring a ruling that they don't float anymore either, so have bribes of pizza and drinks handy.


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## jgsugden (Oct 3, 2003)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> Now point out where in the rules it says that an Ioun stone passes through your LOS?




The ioun stone takes up a circling orbit 1d3 feet from the head. Last time I checked, I use the eyes in my head to see. 

Even if the stone passes slightly above or slightly below eye level, it still shines directly on your eyes. 

There are no direct game rules saying this type of penalty must be used. It is up to the DM to decide whether there should be some sort of negative ramification if someone has a bright lightbulb orbitting their head. I'm just saying that if you think about how this would actually play out, it seems like it would really screw with the PC's vision.

If you're a DM and you don't like my suggestion, feel free to make up your own interpretation. If you're a player and your DM doesn't like my interpretation .... *cough* ... get a better DM.


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## Tewligan (Oct 3, 2003)

jgsugden said:
			
		

> Pretend that you could go down to the 'Sharper Image' store and buy a stone that floated around your head for $500.00. You might not buy it, but a lot of people would. There is a limited supply of these things, so demand should drive the price up.



Well, a levitating rock would be pretty impressive to us because there's no such thing as magic. In a world with wizards, dragons, and magical nipple clamps, a rock whose claim to fame is that it floats isn't going to fetch quite as high of a price as it would here.


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## kreynolds (Oct 3, 2003)

jgsugden said:
			
		

> The ioun stone takes up a circling orbit 1d3 feet from the head. Last time I checked, I use the eyes in my head to see.
> 
> Even if the stone passes slightly above or slightly below eye level, it still shines directly on your eyes.




Do you apply spot penalties to people that wear full plate?



			
				jgsugden said:
			
		

> If you're a player and your DM doesn't like my interpretation .... *cough* ... get a better DM.




I'll be good and leave this one alone.


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## Plane Sailing (Oct 3, 2003)

jgsugden said:
			
		

> Even if the stone passes slightly above or slightly below eye level, it still shines directly on your eyes.




In earlier editions you could use a light spell to dazzle someone, but not in 3e+. What makes you think this should dazzle anyone? 

Or do you allow wizards to use their light cantrip, cast on the end of someones nose, to dazzle them ?!?


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## Brown Jenkin (Oct 3, 2003)

In our campaign I have a CFed grey ioun stone that we sometimes use for a lightsource. Our DM (Black Omega) has never had an issue with it that I am aware of. The way I always imagined it was that they floated in circles above the head, not orbiting around it directly. Just for experiments sake I took an 18" ruler and spun it around about a foot from the top of my head and was unable to see it. Even allowing that it is sometimes in the field of vision I have been about 2 feet from real torches (summer camps and scouting) as well as Collemen lanterns (camping) and was never blinded or distracted by them.


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## Christian (Oct 3, 2003)

FTR, the _everburning torch_ does appear in the SRD. They've (very sensibly) moved it from the magic items section to the 'special and superior items' table in the regular equipment section. And it's priced at 110 gp, as *Auraseer* calculated. (Actually, since it says it's a 'normal torch', it should really be 110 gp + 1 cp.  )


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## Beholder Bob (Oct 3, 2003)

A light source that needs no hands - continual flame on your cloth hat.  Turn it inside out to "hide" the flame.  Only problem, those damn moths!


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## FrankTrollman (Oct 3, 2003)

The Everburning Torch costs less than 110 gp because the price is brought down by the fact that sometimes wizards cast _lesser planar binding_ and conjure Lantern Archons, and get them to work for a few hours making one Ever Burning Torch per _round_. This works out to 600 'Torches per hour - at the cost of a single fifth level spell.

A 5th level spell costs 450 gp to get cast, so assuming that that the Lantern Archon is himself paid 26,550 gp for an hour's work we can easily see that the total cost for creating all 600 torches is 27,000 gp - from which we get their combined market price of 54,000 gp. Spread out amongst those 600 torches the average market price per torch is therefore 90 gp - which is precisely the listed value.

-Frank


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## Christian (Oct 3, 2003)

FrankTrollman said:
			
		

> ...assuming that that the Lantern Archon is himself paid 26,550 gp for an hour's work...




I'm gathering that Lantern Archons have one heck of a strong union ...


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## FrankTrollman (Oct 3, 2003)

If you have a better explanation for why Ever Burning Torches cost more than 10 gold pieces, I'm all ears.

-Frank


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## Christian (Oct 3, 2003)

Rest assured that if I had a good explanation, I'd have screamed it out by now. ;-)


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## rhammer2 (Oct 4, 2003)

The torch costs 110gp in 3.5, the cost in 3.0 was calculated incorrectly at 90gp.



			
				FrankTrollman said:
			
		

> The Everburning Torch costs less than 110 gp because the price is brought down by the fact that sometimes wizards cast _lesser planar binding_ and conjure Lantern Archons, and get them to work for a few hours making one Ever Burning Torch per _round_. This works out to 600 'Torches per hour - at the cost of a single fifth level spell.
> 
> A 5th level spell costs 450 gp to get cast, so assuming that that the Lantern Archon is himself paid 26,550 gp for an hour's work we can easily see that the total cost for creating all 600 torches is 27,000 gp - from which we get their combined market price of 54,000 gp. Spread out amongst those 600 torches the average market price per torch is therefore 90 gp - which is precisely the listed value.
> 
> -Frank


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## Pbartender (Oct 4, 2003)

Christian said:
			
		

> (Actually, since it says it's a 'normal torch', it should really be 110 gp + 1 cp.  )




Torches are sticks that are specially prepared with cloth and pitch or other flammable materials to burn only at one end for an extended length of time.

An Everburning Torch is a stick (or practically any object you desire) with a Continual Flame spell cast on it.  Look at it more as a club (free!) with Cont. Flame, than a torch.

Of course, wouldn't it be more useful to have an Everburning Hooded lantern, so you close the shutters easily to mask the light?  Or even an Everburning bullseye lantern, that provides light out to twice the range, but only in a cone in one direction.


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## Jeph (Oct 4, 2003)

Does it ever state the speed at which Ioun stones rotate? Might an Everburning Grey Ioun Stone spin so fast that it creates a halo of light, like one of those glowy wands they hand out at Bar Mitzvote bent into a circle and hovering above your head, rather than a constantly flickering and incredibly irritating pulse of luminescence?


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