# The Keep on the Borderlands - Location?



## VorpalBunny (Mar 8, 2005)

Just wondering -has there ever been an "official" location given for Kendall Keep in Greyhawk?  I'm planning on using TKotBL as an introductory C&C adventure and I'd like to set it in it's proper place in Greyhawk.


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## John Morrow (Mar 8, 2005)

VorpalBunny said:
			
		

> Just wondering -has there ever been an "official" location given for Kendall Keep in Greyhawk?  I'm planning on using TKotBL as an introductory C&C adventure and I'd like to set it in it's proper place in Greyhawk.




This document might help you:

http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/greyhawk/repair.txt

I think the official location is mentioned in Return to the Keep on the Borderlands and it's mentioned briefly in that document, as well as an alternative location.  Note that a lot of the information in this document references material from the Return to the Keep on the Borderlands module.

You'll also probably want this:

http://www.jumpspace.net/DnD/Modules.html

Finally, I recommend both Return to the Keep on the Borderlands and the Hackmaster Little Keep on the Borderlands modules to help flesh things out and add more detail to the keep.  The latest two issues of Knights of the Dinner Table (99 and 100) also have articles about the Hackmaster version of the Keep including 3D images and dungeons to place below the Keep.


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## Insight (Mar 8, 2005)

Actually, the original Keep on the Borderlands is not set in Greyhawk.  In fact, it's not specifically in any D&D setting.  Given when it came out, it should be placed in the Known World (Mystara), but you could plop it down anywhere you want.  Put it in Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, etc, with just a little tweaking of the background.  If you read the introductory text, it's pretty generic and thus usable anywhere.

EDIT: I have not read Return to Keep on the Borderlands or the Hackmaster version, Little Keep on the Borderlands.  I am referring only to the original module that came out in 83 or so.


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## francisca (Mar 8, 2005)

Most (if not all) Mystara fans locate it in the Altan Teppes, Northwest of Kelvin.  It's called Castelan Keep, and is on the map of Karameikos which came with Gaz 1.


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## diaglo (Mar 8, 2005)

Insight said:
			
		

> I am referring only to the original module that came out in 83 or so.





my copy was printed Dec 1979.   

i also have copies from 1980 and 1981.


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## rogueattorney (Mar 8, 2005)

No setting information was given in the original version of the adventure.  This shouldn't be considered too strange, as TSR hadn't published any campaign setting yet; B2 preceded the World of Greyhawk folio by about a year.  Given the author, I'd assume it was originally set in Greyhawk.  There was a thread somewhere, where Gary Gygax suggested the Keep be put on the western border of the Pomarj.  Wish I could find it.  I should note, some Cannonical Greyhawk modules like the GD series which were published in the same time period also have no campaign setting information in them.

In the 1983 Expert boxed set, there was a suggestion that the Keep be put in the Altan Teppes mountains on the north-east border of Karameikos in the Known World.  In the same year, the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set listed suggested locations for a number of modules, but didn't list B2 (or B1, curiously, even though it listed a number of possible Greyhawk locations in its first couple of printings).  So, as of 1983, regardless of the original intentions, the Keep was set pretty firmly in the Known World.  The 1986 B1-9 compilation and the 1987 GAZ1 Grand Duchy of Karameikos cemented this relationship by adapting the location suggestion from the 1983 Expert set.

When TSR did the 1999 Return to the Keep on the Borderlands, they put it in Greyhawk, since the Known World/Mystara campaign had long since been discontinued.  I believe they put it in the Yeomanry.  Kenzer's Little Keep on the Borderland is located in their own Garweze Wurld.

Personally, I really like the Altan Teppes location for the Known World and the Pomarj location for Greyhawk.

R.A.


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## VorpalBunny (Mar 8, 2005)

rogueattorney said:
			
		

> No setting information was given in the original version of the adventure.  This shouldn't be considered too strange, as TSR hadn't published any campaign setting yet; B2 preceded the World of Greyhawk folio by about a year.  Given the author, I'd assume it was originally set in Greyhawk.  There was a thread somewhere, where Gary Gygax suggested the Keep be put on the western border of the Pomarj.  Wish I could find it.  I should note, some Cannonical Greyhawk modules like the GD series which were published in the same time period also have no campaign setting information in them.




When I get home from work, I'll dig out my copy of Return to the Keep on the Borderlands and see what it says, but I like the western Pomarj as a location, too.  I plan on setting the game pre-Greyhawk wars (i.e. 1st edition Greyhawk) so the Pomarj seems like a good place.  

If the game takes off, its proximity to Highport and the Sea of Gearnat will certainly come in handy - there's been talk of ships with yellow sails raiding the coastal towns there...


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## cmanos (Mar 8, 2005)

Insight said:
			
		

> I am referring only to the original module that came out in 83 or so.




I had it in '79.  I don't believe there was an official location.  The old World of Greyhawk boxed set did have locations of most of the mods in existence.  I don't recall if KotB was  listed.


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## Insight (Mar 8, 2005)

Sorry.  I don't have the mod in front of me.  I'll defer to those who have memorized the year of publication, as I have not.


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## diaglo (Mar 8, 2005)

Insight said:
			
		

> Sorry.  I don't have the mod in front of me.  I'll defer to those who have memorized the year of publication, as I have not.





they did release a print in 1983.


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## loki44 (Mar 8, 2005)

Didn't the Greyhawk maps that have come with the last few issues of Dungeon include the "official" locations of many of the old mods?  I'd have to pull mine out to know for sure.


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## diaglo (Mar 8, 2005)

loki44 said:
			
		

> Didn't the Greyhawk maps that have come with the last few issues of Dungeon include the "official" locations of many of the old mods?  I'd have to pull mine out to know for sure.




the World of Greyhawk Folio (1980) had the locations of some of the modules listed.

i don't think B2 was one of them.


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## VorpalBunny (Mar 8, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> the World of Greyhawk Folio (1980) had the locations of some of the modules listed.
> 
> i don't think B2 was one of them.




It wasn't.


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## loki44 (Mar 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> the World of Greyhawk Folio (1980) had the locations of some of the modules listed. i don't think B2 was one of them.




It's not listed anywhere I could see on the new Greyhawk maps.  Not on the folio map either.  I hadn't looked at that old folio map for quite some time and it had less detail than I remembered.


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## johnsemlak (Mar 9, 2005)

I don't have it in front of me, but the (original) module does refer to the more civilized lands, 'the realm' as being located to the west I believe.  It's pretty much the only geographical reference in the module beyond the wilderness map.


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## VorpalBunny (Mar 9, 2005)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I don't have it in front of me, but the (original) module does refer to the more civilized lands, 'the realm' as being located to the west I believe.  It's pretty much the only geographical reference in the module beyond the wilderness map.




That's correct -  which seems weird with it's placing in Greyhawk (the southwestern most part of the Yeomanry).  Since the keep would then abut the Crystalmist Mts.,  that would make "The Realm" either the Dry Steppes or the Sea of Dust.

In addition to the western Pomarj, I'm looking at the Keoland/Grand March/Geoff/Sterich area.  This would give Geoff or Sterich as possibilites for "The Realm" and the Rushmoors as a possibility for the "fens of the lizard-men".


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2005)

those new WoG maps from Dungeon magazine have the locations of the old modules placed on the map.  you might want to check that out and see if you can find it.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 9, 2005)

Methinks this is just a case of missing the obvious. Lets look at this:

The Keep *on the Borderlands*

So...where is the keep?


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## VorpalBunny (Mar 9, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> those new WoG maps from Dungeon magazine have the locations of the old modules placed on the map.  you might want to check that out and see if you can find it.




Looked already at the location given in _Return to the Keep on the Borderlands_ (extreme southwestern Yeomanry).  It 'taint there.


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## George Kelley (Sep 10, 2017)

I am wondering what is downstream of the Keep. There are deep hardwood forests in close proximity to a river, which means that the real wealth of that area is in timber industry. The hardwood logs could be floated down the river to a larger town where they can be milled into lumber and sold. Player characters can negotiate a percentage of the profits as stockholders as payment for the service of clearing out of the humanoids from the caves of chaos which threaten the Keep. 

As the wild forests are harvested, fruit orchards and vinyards can be planted. Oak trees will be needed for barrel making, Wine and Cider can be floated downriver in keelboats to a larger town or city.


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## ccs (Sep 10, 2017)

That's the great thing about this module.  There's no concrete location specified.
And the area map covers such a tiny area (something like a 5 mile radius wasn't it?) of generic terrain that you can point to virtually any spot on a map & say "There."  Bonus points if you actually put it near the border of something.


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## George Kelley (Sep 10, 2017)

> When The Grand Duchy of Karameikos edition of the Gazetteer series was published, the Keep was given a specific location in the Known World of Mystara, in the Atlan Tepe Mountain region in northern Karameikos.




From Wikipedia

 I checked Amazon.com, the cheapest used copy of The Grand Duchy of Karameikos edition of the Gazetteer was $150. If anyone has a copy, could they look it up and post what town or city is downstream? Where does the road go to?


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## Eltab (Sep 11, 2017)

If you decide that "North" is placed wrongly, KotB can be anywhere you want, as long as you have an organized nation on one side of the river and untamed wilderness / monster-inhabited lands on the other side.

I've always liked that the module is generic enough to be in ANY campaign world - including one you build out from that 'center' yourself.


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