# Monte Cook Games’ Next Kickstarter Is Ptolus (for 5E and Cypher)



## Charles Rampant (Jan 16, 2020)

Interesting. I remember searching a few years ago for whether they planned to make a 5e version, and there was only terse statements that they had no intention of. I guess that they've decided that the profit-to-work ratio was too good to ignore!


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jan 16, 2020)

Charles Rampant said:


> Interesting. I remember searching a few years ago for whether they planned to make a 5e version, and there was only terse statements that they had no intention of. I guess that they've decided that the profit-to-work ratio was too good to ignore!




I think the continued success of 5E has also made them realise that the profit-to-work ratio will be even better than it was a couple of years ago.


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## dalisprime (Jan 16, 2020)

Charles Rampant said:


> Interesting. I remember searching a few years ago for whether they planned to make a 5e version, and there was only terse statements that they had no intention of. I guess that they've decided that the profit-to-work ratio was too good to ignore!




Makes me wonder how much of this will be simply a reprint of old material (art, lore) and how much is going to be written anew.


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## dalisprime (Jan 16, 2020)

Okay this is strange. No idea why my phone decided to split my post in two... don't see the delete option so feel free to remove this post.


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## Bravesteel25 (Jan 16, 2020)

I will back this most likely. I doubt I would ever run it whole cloth, but the idea mining potential is through the roof.


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## Ghost2020 (Jan 16, 2020)

Backed for sure, hopefully there's a digital for both.


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## R_J_K75 (Jan 16, 2020)

Ghost2020 said:


> Backed for sure, hopefully there's a digital for both.




 Pretty sure the original came with a CD that included a digital .pdf copy of everything you got in print.


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## jhilahd (Jan 16, 2020)

As much as I love the Ptolus campaign, I would have rather seen an updated Arcana Unearthed setting/ruleset for either the Cypher system or 5e.  My favorite setting for 3.x, only because it was a unique take on the fantasy genre, magic and races. Sigh... I just need to do myself, don't I?


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## Dahak (Jan 16, 2020)

Charles Rampant said:


> Interesting. I remember searching a few years ago for whether they planned to make a 5e version, and there was only terse statements that they had no intention of. I guess that they've decided that the profit-to-work ratio was too good to ignore!




Monte also said they were no plans to do a Cypher version, because he preferred to go forward, not look back. Never say never in business, though.


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## R_J_K75 (Jan 16, 2020)

dalisprime said:


> Makes me wonder how much of this will be simply a reprint of old material (art, lore) and how much is going to be written anew.




I think the original hardbound was about $100 USD and pre-ordered through Malhavoc Press.  Pretty sure that included shipping too.  IIRC correct mine arrived in 2006 so being 14 years ago my guess is itll be about $125-$150 USD.  I read the book but never ran it.  Sold my copy a few years back so Im definitely going to back this as long as the price isnt too steep.  Hope theres new material too.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 16, 2020)

Reposting my comment from the other thread:


I've been running a Ptolus/Praemal (the larger world) campaign since preordering the original edition and I've been a player in a Ptolus game for about a decade (to Retreater's point above, our group in that game is a special division of the city watch tasked with dealing with adventurer-level threats that ordinary watchmen can't handle).

It's a great, great setting.

In addition to being one of the main 3E internal playtest settings, where everything that was in 3E at release appears in Ptolus, it's also a steampunk Roman Empire that's in the first years of collapse. There's a three-way succession crisis, the knowledge of how technology works is rapidly fading, and that's to say nothing of the supernatural threats the players likely won't be aware of for quite some time.

You can play it as a strict dungeoneering setting -- that's what I do in my home game, where I typically play with my 12-year-old son, my 76-year old dad, my wife, and some friends -- or as an urban setting where three different crime families are at war. Or you can tackle the big cosmic-level threats to the world, where the machinations of a fallen demigod, devils, the undead and Cthulhu-esque threats all conspire to rip the world apart.

It's a _lot_, to be sure, but I don't think any one campaign is realistically going to do all of it. My dungeoneers will almost certainly never scratch the surface of the deep cosmic mysteries and threats, but will likely just do dungeon delving and have run-ins with the various thieves guilds when they cross paths. The online campaign I've been running for years is moving into the political realm as a way to let the cosmic stuff sneak up on them, but aren't likely to even notice the thieves wars or use the dungeons as anything other than something to travel through on their way to a drow city deep beneath Ptolus.

This book is going to be crazy expensive, but given how many years I've gotten out of the 3E version, I have no hesitation about backing the 5E one. (What my wife will say about a second one of these bricks, which will likely cost well above $100, remains to be seen.)


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 16, 2020)

It sounds like there's not any new material coming for it, at least at the moment, which makes sense, since Monte doesn't use the setting any more himself, and asking him to unpack 20-year-old memories to write up new stuff might be a bit much.

That said, there's a _lot_ of Ptolus material scattered through other Malhavoc material, including stuff that's allegedly not set in Praemal, but fits together awfully well, like the Arcana Unearthed stuff. If we're lucky, they might adapt that stuff to 5E/Cypher and/or bundle it together in one place, instead of requiring people to go looking through 3E sourcebooks for more setting material.


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## Dimitri Mazieres (Jan 16, 2020)

R_J_K75 said:


> I think the original hardbound was about $100 USD and pre-ordered through Malhavoc Press.  Pretty sure that included shipping too.  IIRC correct mine arrived in 2006 so being 14 years ago my guess is itll be about $125-$150 USD.  I read the book but never ran it.  Sold my copy a few years back so Im definitely going to back this as long as the price isnt too steep.  Hope theres new material too.



It was originally sold for $120, which was pretty much an outrageous price tag back them, though totally worth it, as never before had such a product been made until then. I remember the product page advising fans groups to pool together the money to purchase it. Oh, how far have we come since then...


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## Dimitri Mazieres (Jan 16, 2020)

And a link to the announcement, in case anyone is looking for it:









						Announcing Ptolus for 5e and the Cypher System - Monte Cook Games
					

Monte announces a return to his acclaimed campaign setting Ptolus, a fantasy city wreathed in magic and emerging from Monte's home game during the design of 3rd Edition D&D! The new Ptolus will release in two versions: one for 5e, and another for the Cypher System.




					www.montecookgames.com


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## R_J_K75 (Jan 16, 2020)

dalisprime said:


> Okay this is strange. No idea why my phone decided to split my post in two... don't see the delete option so feel free to remove this post.




Ive noticed my phone acts strange while typing posts on this website too.  Might just be my phone but this is the only place Ive seen it happen.







Dimitri Mazieres said:


> It was originally sold for $120, which was pretty much an outrageous price tag back them, though totally worth it, as never before had such a product been made until then. I remember the product page advising fans groups to pool together the money to purchase it. Oh, how far have we come since then...




Will probably be $175+ then maybe.  

I remember a city book called Windhaven was announced by a 3PP in the early 3E days 2000-2001.  It touted great things but never came out.  I wonder whatever happened to it, sounded really cool.


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## R_J_K75 (Jan 16, 2020)

Yeah my phone is acting strange like deleting words as I type and posting replies I deleted.


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## Zaukrie (Jan 16, 2020)

I hope there are changes. The idea was that Ptolus reflected the assumptions in 3e. There are different assumptions in 5e......

Based on the scant info in the announcement, I'm guessing that some content from other products will be added in, and this thing will be better as 3 books, than 1, but will come in 1 book.

Either way, I'm probably in this time, we'll see.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 16, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> I hope there are changes. The idea was that Ptolus reflected the assumptions in 3e. There are different assumptions in 5e......
> 
> Based on the scant info in the announcement, I'm guessing that some content from other products will be added in, and this thing will be better as 3 books, than 1, but will come in 1 book.
> 
> Either way, I'm probably in this time, we'll see.



I wouldn't count on it. Changes would be a massive undertaking.

At most, I'd guess some of the supplemental material from the Might books or the Secrets of the Delvers Guild book (itself a collection of purchaser-only blog posts back in the day) might get integrated. But it'd be a lot easier to put those in a separate companion volume as an optional add-on.

I'm also not sure how many changes would be needed, beyond stats, to update the setting from 3E to 5E. No, there's no warlocks in the setting, but there are _plenty_ of spellcasters making deals with bad entities; it would be trivial to make subclasses for them in 5E. There's no dragonborn in the setting, but that's true for plenty of others. And given how little is sketched out about the lands to the west of Ptolus -- which I always say is, eventually, the Lands of the Diamond Throne -- it would be easy to say dragonborn characters come from a previously unvisited land beyond Cherubar.


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## Zaukrie (Jan 16, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I wouldn't count on it. Changes would be a massive undertaking.
> 
> At most, I'd guess some of the supplemental material from the Might books or the Secrets of the Delvers Guild book (itself a collection of purchaser-only blog posts back in the day) might get integrated. But it'd be a lot easier to put those in a separate companion volume as an optional add-on.




Oh, I agree. Hope is very different than expect.

raising the question of how much I'm willing to pay to have a hard copy, or for it to be 5e.......because I have the PDFs. I have almost every Malhavic (sp?) product in PDF.


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## Nebulous (Jan 16, 2020)

I have the original Ptolus book.  i never used it, not once, but I don't regret getting it. But I don't see any point in upgrading to a 5e edition.  Nothing would change but the stat blocks, and it's still 600+ pages of stuff I haven't used in 14 years.

Edit -  MC might change a lot of details, but I wouldn't be any more convinced to use it.


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## DragonBelow (Jan 16, 2020)

Most of the conversion would come in the form of new races, new monsters and a few adventures. No idea if they plan to include other stuff. But many products released by Malhavoc Press were set in Ptolus. Chaositech being one of them, and many adventures.


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## Zaukrie (Jan 16, 2020)

Nebulous said:


> I have the original Ptolus book.  i never used it, not once, but I don't regret getting it. But I don't see any point in upgrading to a 5e edition.  Nothing would change but the stat blocks, and it's still 600+ pages of stuff I haven't used in 14 years.
> 
> Edit -  MC might change a lot of details, but I wouldn't be any more convinced to use it.




Curious, be given its value, why do you still have it if you don't use it?


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## Nebulous (Jan 16, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> Curious, be given its value, why do you still have it if you don't use it?




It's one of the best looking and original roleplaying expansions I own.  It's a work of art.  Good question.


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## R_J_K75 (Jan 16, 2020)

Nebulous said:


> I have the original Ptolus book.  i never used it, not once, but I don't regret getting it. But I don't see any point in upgrading to a 5e edition.  Nothing would change but the stat blocks, and it's still 600+ pages of stuff I haven't used in 14 years.
> 
> Edit -  MC might change a lot of details, but I wouldn't be any more convinced to use it.




You make a good point, as I owned the original, never used it and then sold it.  It really was a nice book but right if I didn't use it then whats going to make me use it now.  I guess I'll wait to see what the kickstarter price looks like.


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## Nebulous (Jan 16, 2020)

R_J_K75 said:


> You make a good point, as I owned the original, never used it and then sold it.  It really was a nice book but right if I didn't use it then whats going to make me use it now.  I guess I'll wait to see what the kickstarter price looks like.




I felt to keep it just for collector's purpose.  And somewhere in the back of my DM brain I always think "I could use that awesome bigass book one day"  Of course I don't though


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## DragonBelow (Jan 16, 2020)

This will probably get funded. I will probably back it, but I feel this is a setting way more appealing for folks that have been around since the 3.x days. Next gen would have little interest in it, because Monte is probably unknown to most of the folks that started playing D&D with 5e.


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## Count_Zero (Jan 16, 2020)

DragonBelow said:


> This will probably get funded. I will probably back it, but I feel this is a setting way more appealing for folks that have been around since the 3.x days. Next gen would have little interest in it, because Monte is probably unknown to most of the folks that started playing D&D with 5e.




Nah - they might know Monte from Numinera, if only because it's gotten adapted in video game form.


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## Zaukrie (Jan 16, 2020)

Arcana of the Ancients booked over $500,000......I don't think he has a lack of name recognition......I only wish I had bought the hardcover for that one.


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## Nebulous (Jan 16, 2020)

Count_Zero said:


> Nah - they might know Monte from Numinera, if only because it's gotten adapted in video game form.




I dunno, that video game is very niche and didn't get a whole lot of recognition.  I would think most of the people who bought it were old Torment fans.


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## Nebulous (Jan 16, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> Arcana of the Ancients booked over $500,000......I don't think he has a lack of name recognition......I only wish I had bought the hardcover for that one.



huh.  i hadn't heard about that one.


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## Count_Zero (Jan 16, 2020)

Nebulous said:


> I dunno, that video game is very niche and didn't get a whole lot of recognition.  I would think most of the people who bought it were old Torment fans.




Not really - it's generally sold pretty well on the various digital platforms it's available on.  It didn't get the same level of buzz as something like Disco Elysium, but it did alright.


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## R_J_K75 (Jan 16, 2020)

Nebulous said:


> my DM brain I always think "I could use that awesome bigass book one day" Of course I don't though




That was always my intention with all the RPGs Ive ever owned.  In the long run I ended up selling off probably 80% of my collection over the years at various times for various reasons.  Some of it I regret but most of it I don't because it just sat on a shelf 100% of the time after browsing it once or twice.  The older I get I've adopted the stance if I havent used something in 6 months or more I probably wont and get rid of it when I get in the mood to start cleaning my house.  Why do I need 10 coffee cups, and 37 butter knives, but I cant find a spoon when I need it.


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## Nebulous (Jan 16, 2020)

Count_Zero said:


> Not really - it's generally sold pretty well on the various digital platforms it's available on.  It didn't get the same level of buzz as something like Disco Elysium, but it did alright.




Well good.  I thought about picking it up myself but wasn't in the mood for something so text heavy.


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## Nebulous (Jan 16, 2020)

R_J_K75 said:


> That was always my intention with all the RPGs Ive ever owned.  In the long run I ended up selling off probably 80% of my collection over the years at various times for various reasons.  Some of it I regret but most of it I don't because it just sat on a shelf 100% of the time after browsing it once or twice.  The older I get I've adopted the stance if I havent used something in 6 months or more I probably wont and get rid of it when I get in the mood to start cleaning my house.  Why do I need 10 coffee cups, and 37 butter knives, but I cant find a spoon when I need it.




i offloaded a bunch of stuff too but there's still a dozen bins of books I just don't want to part with.  Including my original Endless Quests from the 1980s.


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## Nebulous (Jan 16, 2020)

Return to Brookmere, man.  To the 9 year old me, that IS the definition of D&D.


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## R_J_K75 (Jan 16, 2020)

Nebulous said:


> Return to Brookmere, man.  To the 9 year old me, that IS the definition of D&D.




I had these too.  I remember the one with the blue cover with a giant on it maybe?  I probably read all the Choose Your Own Adventures around this time too.  I just remember playing D&D with my friends at this point having little clue what we were doing and how ridiculous our PCs were.


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## Nebulous (Jan 16, 2020)

R_J_K75 said:


> I had these too.  I remember the one with the blue cover with a giant on it maybe?  I probably read all the Choose Your Own Adventures around this time too.  I just remember playing D&D with my friends at this point having little clue what we were doing and how ridiculous our PCs were.




Yeah, I think that was a larry elmore cover if I'm remembering correctly


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## R_J_K75 (Jan 16, 2020)

Nebulous said:


> Yeah, I think that was a larry elmore cover if I'm remembering correctly


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## Doctor Futurity (Jan 16, 2020)

Making a version for Cypher System will get me hooked in on this one.


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## DaveMage (Jan 16, 2020)

The Ptolus product set the standard for me on useful settings.  Not only does it tell you all of the cool places adventurers can visit - it details a lot of them (like mini-modules) so the GM doesn't have to do it themselves!  I _really_ wish more setting books would have done this, but sadly, most do not.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 17, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> The Ptolus product set the standard for me on useful settings.  Not only does it tell you all of the cool places adventurers can visit - it details a lot of them (like mini-modules) so the GM doesn't have to do it themselves!  I _really_ wish more setting books would have done this, but sadly, most do not.



That was a big surprise for me -- content aside, Ptolus showed how to _organize_ a roleplaying setting book and what sort of stuff to put in it. More than a decade later, the big innovation I see copied from it is ... bound-in bookmarks. (Which are nice, don't get me wrong, but hardly the biggest thing.)

Every time I'm flipping back and forth in a 5E book, trying to find something I want, I wonder why page edges aren't color-coded like they are in Ptolus. Surely WotC's art team has copies of the book on hand.


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## Eyes of Nine (Jan 17, 2020)

I have this awesome long adventure from 3.5 called _the Banewarrens_. It was set in Ptolus, but I didn't have the Ptolus sourcebook. Now I can close the loop.

But lots of stuff coming to KS in the next month or so...


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## Sunsword (Jan 17, 2020)

jhilahd said:


> As much as I love the Ptolus campaign, I would have rather seen an updated Arcana Unearthed setting/ruleset for either the Cypher system or 5e.  My favorite setting for 3.x, only because it was a unique take on the fantasy genre, magic and races. Sigh... I just need to do myself, don't I?





I think if Ptolus is successful enough they will think about Arcana Unearthed and perhaps even Iron Heroes. I know the Arcana of the Ancients was successful and I know there are Cyphers fans who have been waiting on Ptolus.


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## imagineGod (Jan 17, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> The Ptolus product set the standard for me on useful settings.  Not only does it tell you all of the cool places adventurers can visit - it details a lot of them (like mini-modules) so the GM doesn't have to do it themselves!  I _really_ wish more setting books would have done this, but sadly, most do not.



I feel a little sad with my circumstances being unable to afford both.

Ideally, the D&Dc5th edition is the logical choice. But the Cypher System is also something I enjoy immensely, and there is no classical fantasy Campaign for Cypher yet, so Ptolus vmay be the perfect fit.

Alas, I cannot afford both 600 page books, looking back at how Monte Cook prices products on Kickstarter.


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## Erekose (Jan 17, 2020)

Well I just don't know how much rewriting will be needed to make it fit into the 5E or Cypher systems but I remember Monte marketing this originally as the definitive 3E campaign . . . so that implies all sorts of default assumptions that may well not hold true for other systems (presumably most acutely Cypher?) . . .


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 17, 2020)

On Twitter, he's shown a magic item that I'm unfamiliar with from Ptolus (Sword of the Dragonkings, held by one of the noble houses), so it sounds like there's at least some new stuff being created.

EDIT: I'm told this sword is actually in a sidebar in the Big Book already. So not new content.

I actually hope he _doesn't_ change how the setting works. I don't want the Inverted Pyramid to suddenly change how they do things because the assumptions of how magic fits into the world is different in 5E and Cypher. (Their services are just much more expensive in 5E, under the RAW, which works fine, IMO.)


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## Nebulous (Jan 17, 2020)

Sunsword said:


> I think if Ptolus is successful enough they will think about Arcana Unearthed and perhaps even Iron Heroes. I know the Arcana of the Ancients was successful and I know there are Cyphers fans who have been waiting on Ptolus.



 Arcana Evolved was amazing, I really did enjoy that, although it was way too complex at later levels like anything 3.x


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## Schmoe (Jan 17, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> That was a big surprise for me -- content aside, Ptolus showed how to _organize_ a roleplaying setting book and what sort of stuff to put in it. More than a decade later, the big innovation I see copied from it is ... bound-in bookmarks. (Which are nice, don't get me wrong, but hardly the biggest thing.)
> 
> Every time I'm flipping back and forth in a 5E book, trying to find something I want, I wonder why page edges aren't color-coded like they are in Ptolus. Surely WotC's art team has copies of the book on hand.




That was an explicit goal for Monte at the time.  He had multiple blog posts detailing how he wanted to book to be useful, not just as a reference, but as a sort of travel guide.  He compared it to a Fodor's for the setting, with cross-references and all.  It is really hands-down the best setting guide I've ever seen.

I own the original, and while I've not played a Ptolus game per-se, it has inspired me in many ways.  I would definitely back this if I didn't already have Ptolus and not play 5e


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## DragonBelow (Jan 17, 2020)

Nebulous said:


> Arcana Evolved was amazing, I really did enjoy that, although it was way too complex at later levels like anything 3.x




My group played several AU/AE games, and we really liked everything about it. We never got to high levels though. My favorite characters to play were a Mohj Mageblade and a Ritual Warrior


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## gyor (Jan 18, 2020)

A book this size would be the perfect size for a 5e FRCG.


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## Carmen Sbordone (Jan 18, 2020)

I bought the orignial book back in 2006 preorder. For 120 dollars which was and outrageous sum for a game book back then.

But it was totally worth it. Played  in a 5 year campaign that was well worth the price tag.

I want it. But its all going to depend on price. I would pay the orginal price for an updated 5e version with no other changes. But not sure i am willing to spend 150 or 175 for a new one


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## Carmen Sbordone (Jan 18, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> The Ptolus product set the standard for me on useful settings.  Not only does it tell you all of the cool places adventurers can visit - it details a lot of them (like mini-modules) so the GM doesn't have to do it themselves!  I _really_ wish more setting books would have done this, but sadly, most do not.





Yeah. All those side bars and adventure hooks, you see that idea of heres a couple adventure hooks for this place used in various 5e books and beyond- mutants and masterminds for example


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## Squeatus (Jan 19, 2020)

Pretty sure based on recent pricing from them, this should run around $12-1500 or so.

Cool setting, though.


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## Knightfall (Jan 19, 2020)

Hmm, since I have the 3E PDF, I'm more interested in the Cypher System version.


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## RichGreen (Jan 19, 2020)

I ran a campaign set there using The Banewarrens and it was excellent fun. It’s a terrific book.


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## DragonBelow (Jan 19, 2020)

I hope they don't go the Invisible Sun luxury route. As much as I like Ptolus, I would pass on such price tag.


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## gyor (Jan 19, 2020)

DragonBelow said:


> I hope they don't go the Invisible Sun luxury route. As much as I like Ptolus, I would pass on such price tag.




 It might be tiers, like just the book is one tier and then a higher tier is Luxury Tier.


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## Connorsrpg (Jan 21, 2020)

jhilahd said:


> As much as I love the Ptolus campaign, I would have rather seen an updated Arcana Unearthed setting/ruleset for either the Cypher system or 5e.  My favorite setting for 3.x, only because it was a unique take on the fantasy genre, magic and races. Sigh... I just need to do myself, don't I?



I loved that setting, but more so just the alternate PHB. Arcana Unearthed is still one of my favourite RPG books. If interested, we have converted some of the races at least on our Races Page to 5E.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 22, 2020)

gyor said:


> It might be tiers, like just the book is one tier and then a higher tier is Luxury Tier.



I am expecting this myself. There was just so much _stuff_ with the original Ptolus that it would be easily to separate some of it out into other tiers. Alternately, it would also work well as add-ons, for the people who don't want, say, Night of Dissolution or the Banewarrens.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 22, 2020)

Connorsrpg said:


> I loved that setting, but more so just the alternate PHB. Arcana Unearthed is still one of my favourite RPG books. If interested, we have converted some of the races at least on our Races Page to 5E.



Your Litorian entry there is wrong, by the way. They appeared in Ptolus before AU..


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## DragonBelow (Jan 22, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Your Litorian entry there is wrong, by the way. They appeared in Ptolus before AU..




Litorians might have showed up in Monte's Ptolus game before AU was published, but the publication of AU predates that of Ptolus


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## gyor (Jan 22, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I am expecting this myself. There was just so much _stuff_ with the original Ptolus that it would be easily to separate some of it out into other tiers. Alternately, it would also work well as add-ons, for the people who don't want, say, Night of Dissolution or the Banewarrens.




 Honestly I have no idea what is in Ptolus, a nearly 700 page book on a single city,  what the heck do they put in it?


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## Deadshot (Jan 22, 2020)

I am all in for 5e version.  Love the setting and had a great campaign for a few years with my group.  Still have the same group so it will be fun to revisit it with 5e rules since we switched from 3.5/Pathfinder.


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## Carmen Sbordone (Jan 22, 2020)

gyor said:


> Honestly I have no idea what is in Ptolus, a nearly 700 page book on a single city,  what the heck do they put in it?



Everything. Multiple districts. Races and classes. Plot lines out the rear. Sewer adventures. Dungeon adventures- delvers guild in fact.

And the cemetary with a druid grove in the middle, and of course the spire itself.

Alot.


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## gyor (Jan 22, 2020)

Carmen Sbordone said:


> Everything. Multiple districts. Races and classes. Plot lines out the rear. Sewer adventures. Dungeon adventures- delvers guild in fact.
> 
> And the cemetary with a druid grove in the middle, and of course the spire itself.
> 
> Alot.




For nearly 700 pages for one city that doesn't seem enough. Maybe I will search out a Table of Contents for Ptolus.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 22, 2020)

gyor said:


> Honestly I have no idea what is in Ptolus, a nearly 700 page book on a single city,  what the heck do they put in it?



Table of contents is here: 








						Ptolus: Monte Cook's City By The Spire (Ptolus Core) - Malhavoc Press | Ptolus | DriveThruRPG.com
					

Ptolus: Monte Cook's City By The Spire (Ptolus Core) - Ptolus: Monte Cook's City by the Spire A full-color illustrated fantasy city sourcebook Either in print or in PDF, Ptolu




					www.drivethrurpg.com


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## gyor (Jan 22, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Table of contents is here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 I actually found a extended ToC for it online. They go into a lot of detail about pretty much everything. I get the feeling that if I read the thing,  I'd be like Captain Picard after he got a life time of someone elses memories beamed into his head.


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## Carmen Sbordone (Jan 22, 2020)

gyor said:


> I actually found a extended ToC for it online. They go into a lot of detail about pretty much everything. I get the feeling that if I read the thing,  I'd be like Captain Picard after he got a life time of someone elses memories beamed into his head.



Yes. I barely scratch the surface with what i listed. As you can see, its quite a bit


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 22, 2020)

The good news is that, even in the Big Book, Monte suggests that most campaigns will use a slice of it. It would be really hard to include the Dungeon stuff, the war between the thieves guild, the three-way Imperial schism _and_ the supernatural stuff in one campaign. Each of those is practically a campaign in themselves.


----------



## Carmen Sbordone (Jan 22, 2020)

And maybe this time we can find a place for ptolus discussion that will stick around. ALOT of good ptolus information, ideas, campaign writeups and other stuff got lost forever after montes forum crashed.


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## Eyes of Nine (Jan 22, 2020)

Carmen Sbordone said:


> And maybe this time we can find a place for ptolus discussion that will stick around. ALOT of good ptolus information, ideas, campaign writeups and other stuff got lost forever after montes forum crashed.




there’s this forum platform I know of, that I’m typing in RIGHT NOW, that could possibly work…


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## Todd Roybark (Jan 22, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The good news is that, even in the Big Book, Monte suggests that most campaigns will use a slice of it.




Sooth.


----------



## MichaelSomething (Jan 22, 2020)

How possible is it to just dump a party at the gates and let them do whatever? Would it work as a gaint sandbox?


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## Nebulous (Jan 22, 2020)

MichaelSomething said:


> How possible is it to just dump a party at the gates and let them do whatever? Would it work as a gaint sandbox?




As a DM I think you would be overwhelmed by all the options unless you were ridiculously familiar with the material.


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## Todd Roybark (Jan 23, 2020)

Actually Nebulous, the layout of Ptolus and other MCG products is rather conducive to “On the Fly DM’ing”.  The chapter heads are a different color for easy identification, and a lot of the pages are from the formatting, which has wide margins with  quick stats for  Major NPC’s at the locations, interesting tidbits that might spark a creative thought, maybe a quick NPC like a doorman etc.

I hate in WOTC adventures, the secret door info is always at the front, never in the room description, where you need it.  Ptolus has information, _like that where_ you need it and it is _incredibly easy to read_.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 23, 2020)

MichaelSomething said:


> How possible is it to just dump a party at the gates and let them do whatever? Would it work as a gaint sandbox?



I think it'd be pretty easy. There aren't gates in every quarter, so that already limits where they could possibly enter.

After that, there's limited things they're _likely_ to do. There's a giant honking Spire over the city they might want to either check out or ask someone about. Or they're going to check in at an inn. If they look like Delvers (adventurers), everyone in the city will assume they want to go to Midtown, where they can join the Delvers Guild, get a license to carry weapons and other adventuring gear, and either check out the Delvers Guild Library or just check out Delvers Square and check in at a nearby inn (likely the Ghostly Minstrel, which is the rough equivalent of the Yawning Portal in Waterdeep).

But given the book's clear organization, after a once-over by the DM to familiarize themselves with the symbols and organizations, it's not to hard to say "OK, you're in this quarter and looking for this sort of shop. OK, I see it on the map, and here's some sample NPCs you might encounter on the way," and you're off.

Seriously, I've never seen an easier-to-use city book.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 23, 2020)

Oh, and worst case scenario, just start the Banewarrens adventure once they get inside. It's partly set in the city, and partly set in a dungeon _adjacent_ to it, and gets you right into the action pretty fast, as well as barrelling the group straight at the thematic heart of the setting.


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## Eyes of Nine (Jan 23, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Oh, and worst case scenario, just start the Banewarrens adventure once they get inside. It's partly set in the city, and partly set in a dungeon _adjacent_ to it, and gets you right into the action pretty fast, as well as barrelling the group straight at the thematic heart of the setting.



Welp, you’ve pretty much sold me on this thing now.


----------



## Nebulous (Jan 23, 2020)

yeah, you're kinda wanting me to get the 5e version of this thing as well, it really was a unique product.


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## Carmen Sbordone (Jan 24, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Oh, and worst case scenario, just start the Banewarrens adventure once they get inside. It's partly set in the city, and partly set in a dungeon _adjacent_ to it, and gets you right into the action pretty fast, as well as barrelling the group straight at the thematic heart of the setting.



Or if you have access to the dungeon adventure mad gods key, you can start at the docks....


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## BenTheFerg (Jan 25, 2020)

I bought the book with the PDFs when it originally came out. It is a beautiful book, and really well organized in terms of how they use sidebars.

However, it is lacking in random tables and I would argue use-abilty...

The good news is, since then, OSR folks have been trying to help make urban crawling more doable on the fly. I know the author is now disgraced, but the Vornheim book does illustrate how to make a city book more user friendly. Less is more.... I sincerely hope random tables are added to this work. But I doubt it.

I also hope ideas from Stormreach (for Eberron) are used: getting more adventure hooks for each section of the city. With that book I managed to create a massive table of possible inciting incidents for each sector, giving PCs a treasure trove of options to explore.

Likewise, the Razor Coast does really well in creating mini encounters and inciting incidents to give pcs options..... Different choices lead into different aspects of the campaign.

At the moment, in Ptolus, all of the encounter zones are there, waiting. But other than running the linear campaigns - Nights of Dissolution and The Banewarrens - there is a lack of help for helping the GM mine the book and a lack of inciting incidents which can slowly pull PCs into various events.

There are loads of interesting factions but again, beyond a simple relationship map, not much is done with them in the core book.....

I sincerely hope these are worked on..... I'll certainly keep my eyes on the KS and see how it develops.  I would love it if these concerns are addressed..... Fingers crossed!


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 25, 2020)

BenTheFerg said:


> The good news is, since then, OSR folks have been trying to help make urban crawling more doable on the fly. I know the author is now disgraced, but the Vornheim book does illustrate how to make a city book more user friendly. Less is more.... I sincerely hope random tables are added to this work. But I doubt it.



I have game designer friends who _hate_ random tables. While they're definitely huge in the OSR community -- I've got a copy of the Dungeon Dozen and have Kickstarted all three volumes of Goodman Games Dungeon Alphabet series, myself -- I don't think they're universally seen as a must-have.

That said, it would be _amazing_ if Monte created some sort of license to allow people to create content for Ptolus. Even without it, though, it's not hard to find urban random tables to use with it. (Heck, you could use the 1E DMG charts, if you wanted to, and I'm guessing most OSR fans know and have access to them.)


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## BenTheFerg (Jan 25, 2020)

Well I didn't mean replace content with random tables but add them. And not any old table but bespoke ones for each section of the city. As a gaming aid to the time pressed GM.... At the moment for me, it is not usable without a ton of work unlike Stormreach.

With you in the open content for DMs guild!


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## Carmen Sbordone (Jan 27, 2020)

Are you really arguing that without random tables it doesnt have use ability?

You might have purchased it, but you couldnt have read it very well. Has tons of use ability and hooks if you read it. Each section has hooks in it.

Chaos cults, hunger swords, druid center in the center of cemetary, etc.....


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## darjr (Jan 28, 2020)

A DMsGuild for Ptolus? That would be cool.


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## MichaelSomething (Jan 28, 2020)

darjr said:


> A DMsGuild for Ptolus? That would be cool.



600 plus pages isn't enough for you?


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## pogre (Jan 28, 2020)

Had the original and it was a well made and very well organized book. Sold it for good cash. If they have a limited, luxury edition I might be tempted. I can usually cash those books out for near purchase price later if I don't use it. If I do use it - it is worth every penny. I have bought and sold so many books I just did not get mileage out of...


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## BenTheFerg (Jan 28, 2020)

Carmen Sbordone said:


> Are you really arguing that without random tables it doesnt have use ability?
> 
> You might have purchased it, but you couldnt have read it very well. Has tons of use ability and hooks if you read it. Each section has hooks in it.
> 
> Chaos cults, hunger swords, druid center in the center of cemetary, etc.....




Thanks.  I can read perfectly well. 

Running Ptolus worked for you. Good. But not for me. And not for the want of trying. Thus my post and suggestions!

I have run monster campaigns including Masks of Nyarlathotep and Stormreach (urban Eberron city adventuring)..... Plus recently the Curse of Strahd and the Darkening of Mirkwood... Currently running a Sharn city urban-crawl ..... I read lots! Am educated to MSc level YET I find Ptolus hard to mine.... & Construct a sandbox for beyond running the official adventures... And I'm not alone. Thus my suggestions at adding random tables, more inciting incidents, mini adventures which help busy GMs (I am time poor) bring such a massive setting alive at the table.


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## Carmen Sbordone (Jan 28, 2020)

BenTheFerg said:


> Thanks.  I can read perfectly well.
> 
> Running Ptolus worked for you. Good. But not for me. And not for the want of trying. Thus my post and suggestions!
> 
> I have run monster campaigns including Masks of Nyarlathotep and Stormreach (urban Eberron city adventuring)..... Plus recently the Curse of Strahd and the Darkening of Mirkwood... Currently running a Sharn city urban-crawl ..... I read lots! Am educated to MSc level YET I find Ptolus hard to mine.... & Construct a sandbox for beyond running the official adventures... And I'm not alone. Thus my suggestions at adding random tables, more inciting incidents, mini adventures which help busy GMs (I am time poor) bring such a massive setting alive at the table.




The fact is you claimed it didnt have usability might be the reason i asked. 

Setting is quite alive without those tables if you read it. I played a 5 year campagin and dont think we hit even a fraction of whats it the book. Hell i bet we could play 3 more 5 year campaigns and not deal with same iems.

I know i wasnt alone in that. Hell i remember the old forums and the ideas that came just from the book.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 28, 2020)

MichaelSomething said:


> 600 plus pages isn't enough for you?



There's more than that out there, between Secrets of the Delvers Guild, the adventures and supplements set in Ptolus or Praemal, etc.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 28, 2020)

Now that I think about it, if Goodman Games is thinking of another Alphabet book, an Urban Alphabet would be great and would work well with their new Lankhmar line ...


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## Deadshot (Jan 28, 2020)

It's a shame Monte's web forum crashed.  There was a lot of good stuff and discussions there.


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## Carmen Sbordone (Jan 29, 2020)

Deadshot said:


> It's a shame Monte's web forum crashed.  There was a lot of good stuff and discussions there.



Gods i miss  that forum. So much useful information lost, so many campaign stories lost.


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## Connorsrpg (Feb 4, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Your Litorian entry there is wrong, by the way. They appeared in Ptolus before AU..



Oh, really? Was Ptolus before Arcana Unearthed?


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## Connorsrpg (Feb 4, 2020)

DragonBelow said:


> Litorians might have showed up in Monte's Ptolus game before AU was published, but the publication of AU predates that of Ptolus



That's what I thought.


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## scruffygrognard (Feb 17, 2020)

I'd love to buy this for 5e, as I have and love the 3e version, but it's a bit pricey for the option that I'd like.   I wish there were a cheaper option for just the main book and 5 Player's Guide in print (with no PDFs).

*Pledge $220 or more*
*HERO*
OUTFIT YOUR GAME GROUP! You get Ptolus in print, for either 5e or the Cypher System (you’ll tell us which after the campaign), along with FIVE copies of the Ptolus Player’s Guide in print. You also get Ptolus in PDF for 5e, Cypher System, and the original 3e version, along with a number of related titles (27 products—over $250 in value!), delivered just a few weeks after this campaign ends.
Shipping is charged at the time we fulfill your reward. See Shipping on the main Kickstarter text.
INCLUDES:

Ptolus for your choice of 5e or the Cypher System in print
5× Ptolus Player's Guide in print
Ptolus for 5e in PDF
Ptolus for the Cypher System in PDF
Ptolus for 3e in PDF delivered early
Collection of additional 3e Ptolus titles delivered early


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 17, 2020)

The current version of the Players Guide is available to download free from the Kickstarter page. I don't think it's worth paying additional money for at this point, as your players can just use the PDF instead.

As it is, you're going to have to hand over the full campaign setting to help people making characters if they're playing lizardfolk or Litorians or the like, making each of those Players Guides a very expensive item of medium-at-best value.

If they change direction and make the Players Guide more robust, just picking up a single copy is probably sufficient for that side of the screen.


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## Mistwell (Feb 18, 2020)

I would love to have this, but I can't afford $150 and I don't want it in PDF. 

Maybe I can convince one of our DMs to buy it instead


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## ruemere (Feb 18, 2020)

How do you put d20 into Cypher system? 

I feel that design premises, heroics, adventure design (encounters) work differently (and I am really uncomfortable about same stats / pools used for actions and damage in a fantasy system created for dungeon delving). 

I played Torment, and really hated random fights eating up my stats regardless of whether I attacked or defended.


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## Aldarc (Feb 18, 2020)

ruemere said:


> How do you put d20 into Cypher system?
> 
> I feel that design premises, heroics, adventure design (encounters) work differently (and I am really uncomfortable about same stats / pools used for actions and damage in a fantasy system created for dungeon delving).



Jein. This is one of the things that leads the Cypher System to feel a bit more like OSR. There is not necessarily low HP, but there is a resource management game involving the risk/reward spending of your stat pools. IME, this leads to players being more cautious about combat, exploration, and other encounters that may deplete their pools. A lot of the Numenera game does entail dungeon-delving, as your are exploring lost ruins or exotic locations in search of numenera, such as cyphers, artifacts, and schema for devices. This goes back to the prior point as the XP incentives in Numenera is not around defeating monsters or combat, but in making discoveries, uncovering artifacts, and so on.


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## ruemere (Feb 18, 2020)

Aldarc said:


> Jein. This is one of the things that leads the Cypher System to feel a bit more like OSR. There is not necessarily low HP, but there is a resource management game involving the risk/reward spending of your stat pools. IME, this leads to players being more cautious about combat, exploration, and other encounters that may deplete their pools. A lot of the Numenera game does entail dungeon-delving, as your are exploring lost ruins or exotic locations in search of numenera, such as cyphers, artifacts, and schema for devices. This goes back to the prior point as the XP incentives in Numenera is not around defeating monsters or combat, but in making discoveries, uncovering artifacts, and so on.



I see your points, it's just that paying stats to just try something, with the payment stat being also your hitponts, does not sit well with me. 

It really turned me off. 

Yes, there is the option of not paying but unless your character is extremely experienced, you will be seriously handicapped.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 18, 2020)

Mistwell said:


> I would love to have this, but I can't afford $150 and I don't want it in PDF.
> 
> Maybe I can convince one of our DMs to buy it instead



At this price point (kind of like Beadle & Grimm's stuff), this feels like a joint table purchase kind of Kickstarter.

I am not kidding when I say I've been using the 3E edition for 14 years. I've also been a player in a related campaign for most of that period. So for me, it definitely is worth its very high sticker price.


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## Aldarc (Feb 18, 2020)

ruemere said:


> I see your points, it's just that paying stats to just try something, with the payment stat being also your hitponts, does not sit well with me.
> 
> It really turned me off.
> 
> Yes, there is the option of not paying but unless your character is extremely experienced, you will be seriously handicapped.



If you don't like it, then you don't like it. That's okay. I have found that reception of the Cypher System tends to be more divisive than other games. 

However, I have not really experienced much of an issue with what you describe either as a player or as a GM running the game. This difference, in part, may stem from differences of experiences between the TTRPG and the computer game. For example, you don't have to really pay stats to try something unless you are expending Effort or using an ability that has an associated pool cost. But typically the cost comes either from a pool that your Type excels at or from a pool that you are not using as much, such as a Glaive using Intellect-based powers.


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## ruemere (Feb 18, 2020)

Aldarc said:


> If you don't like it, then you don't like it. That's okay. I have found that reception of the Cypher System tends to be more divisive than other games.
> 
> However, I have not really experienced much of an issue with what you describe either as a player or as a GM running the game. This difference, in part, may stem from differences of experiences between the TTRPG and the computer game. For example, you don't have to really pay stats to try something unless you are expending Effort or using an ability that has an associated pool cost. But typically the cost comes either from a pool that your Type excels at or from a pool that you are not using as much, such as a Glaive using Intellect-based powers.



I agree that my experiences may be skewed by cRPG. 
Question - is there any online play example of Cypher-based dungeon delving?

Note: The reason for my interest is that I would love to invest in Ptolus Kickstarter, however I would hate to purchase an elaborate paper press. And the Kickstarter lacks Cypher-related details. I am also not a 5E person (more a PF1, quite a lot 13A, quite disdainful of PF2's "combat mode, interact/manipulate action" tag-tag-tag festival).


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## DragonBelow (Feb 18, 2020)

ruemere said:


> I agree that my experiences may be skewed by cRPG.
> Question - is there any online play example of Cypher-based dungeon delving?
> 
> Note: The reason for my interest is that I would love to invest in Ptolus Kickstarter, however I would hate to purchase an elaborate paper press. And the Kickstarter lacks Cypher-related details. I am also not a 5E person (more a PF1, quite a lot 13A, quite disdainful of PF2's "combat mode, interact/manipulate action" tag-tag-tag festival).




You might be better served by the 3.5 version then, which you can buy at drivethru and what not


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## Aldarc (Feb 19, 2020)

ruemere said:


> Question - is there any online play example of Cypher-based dungeon delving?



Not that I am aware of, but a substantial portion of official Numenera adventures are fundamentally dungeon-delving bizarre science-fantasy ruins: e.g., crashed spaceships, space stations, science facilities/labs, the remains of an alien biomechanical creature, etc. However, I would say that Numenera leans more heavily on the Exploration pillar of dungeon-crawling, whereas (again, IME) D&D leans more heavily on the Combat pillar of dungeon-crawling. Numenera is less about fighting monsters in dungeons and more about recovering numenera in dungeons.

_The Jade Colossus_ is a dungeon-delve centered around a mysterious jade structure that randomly burst from the ground beside a town five years ago. The book includes resources for making randomly generated maps and various encounter tables.

--------- 

I would be curious to see how the Cypher System handles the playable fantasy bioforms of Ptolus. The Cypher System is more anthropocentric, with most of its fantasy settings presuming that you are human. Alien and fantasy species exist for Numenera, the Strange, and Gods of the Fall, but they are not entirely satisfying as it requires your Descriptor, whereas humans get to be an Intelligent Jacks, a varjeen only gets to be a Varjeen Jack. However, I would probably prefer having species/race being mostly cosmetic and then letting players have the option to choose from species/bioform-based themes. I'm not sure if this is the route that Monte & Co. will go.


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## Carmen Sbordone (Feb 19, 2020)

Mistwell said:


> I would love to have this, but I can't afford $150 and I don't want it in PDF.
> 
> Maybe I can convince one of our DMs to buy it instead



For reference, the book was $120 14 years ago. 30 dollars more in that time isnt bad


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## Eyes of Nine (Feb 19, 2020)

Carmen Sbordone said:


> For reference, the book was $120 14 years ago. 30 dollars more in that time isnt bad




Couldnt afford it then, and I was a game store owner! Of course I wasn’t playing d and d then either so I didnt want it anyway.


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## Mistwell (Feb 19, 2020)

Carmen Sbordone said:


> For reference, the book was $120 14 years ago. 30 dollars more in that time isnt bad




I am not saying it's an unfair price. I am saying I cannot justify that expense for this product for my family. 

If it were $8.33/month for 18 months...naw I still couldn't justify that recurring payment for a single product like this. Because it's not something I share with my entire family, like a movie or amusement park visit or bike or netflix subscription. Nor is it something useful for my ability to bring in more money, like work clothing or gas for my car. It's pure entertainment and of the "just me and not the entire family" type. I can justify $30 for something like that, but not $150 in one shot.


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## teitan (Feb 20, 2020)

jhilahd said:


> As much as I love the Ptolus campaign, I would have rather seen an updated Arcana Unearthed setting/ruleset for either the Cypher system or 5e.  My favorite setting for 3.x, only because it was a unique take on the fantasy genre, magic and races. Sigh... I just need to do myself, don't I?




I'd buy that. I am kind of working on a 5e setting myself with some similarities because I loved Arcana Unearthed so much. Diamond Throne was a wonderful setting. I'd back Ptolus as well if we could afford it.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 20, 2020)

Obviously, we have a long way to go before the new Ptolus even ships, but it's not hard to imagine Arcana Unearthed/Lands of the Diamond Throne 5E coming after Ptolus.


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## Carmen Sbordone (Feb 20, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Obviously, we have a long way to go before the new Ptolus even ships, but it's not hard to imagine Arcana Unearthed/Lands of the Diamond Throne 5E coming after Ptolus.



Thats something id like to see. Its whats missing in the 5e era. Variety of settings.


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## Eyes of Nine (Feb 21, 2020)

Carmen Sbordone said:


> Thats something id like to see. Its whats missing in the 5e era. Variety of settings.




So at first I was like - what do you mean, we've got Ravnica, Eberron, Chult, the Underdark, and the entirety of the Sword Coast! 

But then I thought about it - I'd love to have more official content that takes place on Faerun that isn't Sword Coast. Moonshae Isles; Sea of Fallen Stars (that's where one of my current campaigns is set); Calimshan; Amn; Tethyr - so much. And that's just Faerun!

Therefore, I guess I agree with Carmen Sbordone here...


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## Carmen Sbordone (Feb 21, 2020)

chrisshorb said:


> So at first I was like - what do you mean, we've got Ravnica, Eberron, Chult, the Underdark, and the entirety of the Sword Coast!
> 
> But then I thought about it - I'd love to have more official content that takes place on Faerun that isn't Sword Coast. Moonshae Isles; Sea of Fallen Stars (that's where one of my current campaigns is set); Calimshan; Amn; Tethyr - so much. And that's just Faerun!
> 
> Therefore, I guess I agree with Carmen Sbordone here...



3 of those listed are same setting world. 1 of those JUST came out recently.

There are so much that could be but isnt.


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## jhilahd (Feb 21, 2020)

True enough.
But we actually have quite a few to choose from.
Here are a few off the top of my head and in no particular order(these are either on my shelf or hard drive, supported in/on kickstarter or seen on drivethrurpg/dmsguild):

Forgotten Realms,
Eberron, 
Ravnica,
Ravenloft,
Exandria,
Midgard,
Seas of Vodari,
Odyssey of the Dragon Lords,
Dark Matter,
Esper Genesis,
Adventures in Middle Earth,
Primeval Thule,
The Spy Game,
Humblewood,
Pugmire/Monarchies of Mau,
Scarred Lands,
Filbar,
Mist of Akuma,
Ultra Modern 5(more toolkit but has some setting material),
5th Evolution from Limitless Adventures (micro settings - supers, 80's horror, and ww2)
Arcanis
Lost Lands
Zodiac Empires
Carbon 2185
Ponyfinder
Genefunk
Whispers in the Dark(amazing)
Zeitgeist
War of the Burning Sky
And I'm sure there are more. I'm 99% sure I'm missing stuff.
The point is, there are alot of options available right now.
What else would you like to see?

The reason I pointed out the Arcana Unearthed was that it was the first time I saw a unified spellcaster system for D&D, player managed (not spell points) spell slots, non-standard races and classes that weren't traditional fantasy races.
And that whetted my imagination like no other setting has in awhile.

And when I get over my "burn-out" slump, I'll have a hard time picking a campaign setting or making my own.
I'm telling ya a Ghosts of Saltmarsh/Seas of Vodari/Ptolus campaign could work.

**edited because I'm an artist not a writer. le sigh


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 21, 2020)

jhilahd said:


> I'm telling ya a Ghosts of Saltmarsh/Seas of Vodari/Ptolus campaign could work.



If my dad wasn't planning on making Ghosts of Saltmarsh the first campaign he'll DM (they grow up so fast!), I was going to run it, using the towns north of Ptolus. It's a really good fit, although I seem to recall a reference somewhere in the big book to sea elves not existing in the world of Praemal (which, of course, DMs are free to ignore or to replace the sea elf in Saltmarsh with something else).


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 22, 2020)

You know what settings I'm surprised we haven't seen relaunched for 5E? Midnight, Dawnforge and Morningstar. All of them made a big splash in the 3E era, as two of them were developed for the same competition that gave us Eberron.

I know FFG is going through some stuff, but it surprises me they didn't sell the rights to Midnight somewhere along the line, even if they didn't want to develop it themselves.


----------



## Aldarc (Feb 22, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> You know what settings I'm surprised we haven't seen relaunched for 5E? Midnight, Dawnforge and Morningstar. All of them made a big splash in the 3E era, as two of them were developed for the same competition that gave us Eberron.
> 
> I know FFG is going through some stuff, but it surprises me they didn't sell the rights to Midnight somewhere along the line, even if they didn't want to develop it themselves.



The primary issue with Dawnforge, IMHO - and I say this as someone who loves the setting - is that it requires either removing classes or heavily tweaking them to work. The cleric and druid were replaced with the disciple and shaman, respectively. Even with these changes, I don't think that it did as good of a job at selling the D&D before D&D vibe that it was going for, because I would have also tuned-down the other spellcasters such as wizards and sorcerers. But creating a setting like Dawnforge has been on my to-do list for finding a good system that could convey the intent and feel of its original setting. Possibly a system like Dungeon World or Fantasy AGE/Blue Rose.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 22, 2020)

I'm happy that Green Ronin has been able to make a go of their Fantasy AGE system, but man, I would grab a 5E Blue Rose campaign setting book -- or even just a system neutral one, like the Freeport book they released back in the 4E era -- in a heartbeat.


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## Aldarc (Feb 23, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I'm happy that Green Ronin has been able to make a go of their Fantasy AGE system, but man, I would grab a 5E Blue Rose campaign setting book -- or even just a system neutral one, like the Freeport book they released back in the 4E era -- in a heartbeat.



I respectfully disagree. I don't see Blue Rose working as well in 5e as it does in AGE, as it would likely require as big of a move from as Blue Rose was from 3e to True20 in order to work. Although AGE is a 3d6 system, you can nevertheless see a lot of familiar design DNA between AGE and True20.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 24, 2020)

Aldarc said:


> I respectfully disagree. I don't see Blue Rose working as well in 5e as it does in AGE, as it would likely require as big of a move from as Blue Rose was from 3e to True20 in order to work. Although AGE is a 3d6 system, you can nevertheless see a lot of familiar design DNA between AGE and True20.



I think there's a great argument to be made that some settings demand their own rules. I'm not sure that Blue Rose is one of them, though. It needs a new race or three, some new spells -- or even a new spellcasting class or two -- but I think it's probably still close enough to D&D to work.

But I'm not a Blue Rose expert, and I defer to those with more knowledge of that setting.


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## Olaf the Stout (Feb 25, 2020)

You're doing a good job Whizbang Dustyboots of getting me off the fence and on the Ptolus train for a second time.


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## Aldarc (Feb 25, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I think there's a great argument to be made that some settings demand their own rules. I'm not sure that Blue Rose is one of them, though. It needs a new race or three, some new spells -- or even a new spellcasting class or two -- but I think it's probably still close enough to D&D to work.
> 
> But I'm not a Blue Rose expert, and I defer to those with more knowledge of that setting.



Blue Rose was designed primarily by Steve Kenson and Jeremy Crawford. Blue Rose has two versions: True20 and AGE. The magic system and level of magic is intentionally different from D&D. Hence why the original Blue Rose wasn’t just slapped onto 3e. It reduced all classes to three: adept, expert, and warrior. It completely threw out D&D magic. An Adept picked powers that they could cast at-will, but required a successful skill check to either cast or avoid fatigue. But these powers were meant to evoke romantic fantasy. The suite of powers was more restrained and subtle: psychic, divination, psychosomatic meditation, elemental shaping, and animism. Could it work? Yeah, but you are  definitely understating the amount of labor it would take to rewrite Blue Rose to work.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 25, 2020)

Aldarc said:


> Blue Rose was designed primarily by Steve Kenson and Jeremy Crawford. Blue Rose has two versions: True20 and AGE. The magic system and level of magic is intentionally different from D&D. Hence why the original Blue Rose wasn’t just slapped onto 3e. It reduced all classes to three: adept, expert, and warrior. It completely threw out D&D magic. An Adept picked powers that they could cast at-will, but required a successful skill check to either cast or avoid fatigue. But these powers were meant to evoke romantic fantasy. The suite of powers was more restrained and subtle: psychic, divination, psychosomatic meditation, elemental shaping, and animism. Could it work? Yeah, but you are  definitely understating the amount of labor it would take to rewrite Blue Rose to work.



True20 is a stripped down version of D20, based on the work done on Mutants & Masterminds. (Adept, Expert and Warrior are literally the D20 NPC classes from the DMG/SRD.)

True20 material remains broadly compatible with D20. A lot of True20 is the same as D20, but often with just sweeping away conventions to expose the systems underneath -- stats running from 3 to 18 are traditional, for instance, but what really matters are the bonuses they give to rolls. 

At most, a 5E Blue Rose would have new classes, as I stated, with their own system of magic.


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## Aldarc (Feb 25, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> True20 is a stripped down version of D20, based on the work done on Mutants & Masterminds. (Adept, Expert and Warrior are literally the D20 NPC classes from the DMG/SRD.)
> 
> True20 material remains broadly compatible with D20. A lot of True20 is the same as D20, but often with just sweeping away conventions to expose the systems underneath -- stats running from 3 to 18 are traditional, for instance, but what really matters are the bonuses they give to rolls.



Respectfully, I am acutely aware of all of this as True20 was my primary TTRPG of choice in the 3.5Era.



> At most, a 5E Blue Rose would have new classes, as I stated, with their own system of magic.



 My reading of your statement was that Blue Rose 5e would be the 5e PHB plus some new classes with "some new spells -- or even a new spellcasting class or two" with the pre-existing magic system, so pardon me if I didn't read the idea of "their own system of magic," which seems absent in your original statement.

I'm still not entirely sure the extent to which a 5e True20 would work.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 26, 2020)

Honestly, I just wish everyone would do systemless setting books. In my recent purge of RPG materials I no longer use -- which I turned into sweet, sweet store credit for stuff that I will -- Green Ronin's Pirate's Guide to Freeport made the cut, since it will be usable in 6E or Pathfinder 3E or whatever else comes down the pike in the future.


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## Aldarc (Feb 26, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Honestly, I just wish everyone would do systemless setting books. In my recent purge of RPG materials I no longer use -- which I turned into sweet, sweet store credit for stuff that I will -- Green Ronin's Pirate's Guide to Freeport made the cut, since it will be usable in 6E or Pathfinder 3E or whatever else comes down the pike in the future.



That seems like a nice idea. You can present a complete book that has the rules and the setting material, but also include a (free) setting book that is the setting material to the side. Doesn't Primeval Thule also do this?


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## jaycrockett (Feb 26, 2020)

BenTheFerg said:


> However, it is lacking in random tables and I would argue use-abilty...



I'm guessing you already knew this, but for the other people's sake, the extras for Ptolus included a 6 page, 300+ item random encounter list that had a matrix of results based on the quarter of the city and the time of day.


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