# What do you think of Marvel post-Endgame?



## Morrus (Jun 29, 2022)

Just talking movies, how do you think the MCU is doing since Endgame and that phase ended?

As a reminder here’s the list:

*Black Widow*
*Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings *
*Spider-Man: Far From Home *
*Eternals*
*Spider-Man: No Way Home *
*Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness *
Includes the Spider-man movies.


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## UngainlyTitan (Jun 29, 2022)

I think that they are doing well. I have enjoyed all the above movies.


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## ART! (Jun 29, 2022)

It's felt a little...flimsier? to me, like a little more slap-dash, but with the Phase One Avengers arc finally culminating in _Endgame_, just about anything might feel anticlimactic. COVID messed with all their productions since then, and the Disney+ platform has transformed their approach, so all told theirs no way it would or could feel anything like phases 1-3. 

I've enjoyed all the Phase 4 movies so far, to varying degrees and in different ways, and I'm happy to let them figure things out and slowly build whatever they're building.


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## Morrus (Jun 29, 2022)

For me, these movies were all OK (Black Widow and Dr Strange were weak, and Eternals wasn’t good), but they all feel mid-tier MCU to me. I’m still waiting for one that will knock it out of the park. Maybe Thor next month?


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## JAMUMU (Jun 29, 2022)

1. Not the Shang-Chi I grew up reading, but Moon Knight was close enough to the Moon Knight I did grow up reading (and was so good) that I gave Shang-Chi a pass. Awkwafina did a lot of the heavy lifting for this, imho. Would have much preferred it to be OG Master of Kung Fu, though, without the dumb ring powers.
2. Was awful. What even was this Mysterio? It felt like it came from a different timeline, made by aliens who'd read about Spider-Man and Spider-Man movies and tried to make one using a malfunctioning replicator.
3. The best bit was Blade's voice right at the end.
4. Seriously good. If only all of Phase IV was of this quality.
5. It was the best of films, it was the worst of films. A triumph of spectacle over thought.

Phase 4 has been the weakest so far, if you exclude Moon Knight and Ms Marvel.


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## Deset Gled (Jun 29, 2022)

Morrus said:


> As a reminder here’s the list:
> 
> *Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (2023)*
> *Spider-Man: Far From Home (2023)*
> ...




Something seems suspect about those release dates.


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## Morrus (Jun 29, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> Something seems suspect about those release dates.



Yeah I copy pasted that list from somewhere. I’ve removed the bogus dates!


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## Cadence (Jun 29, 2022)

Does the TV count?


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## Retreater (Jun 29, 2022)

I don't care for multiverse stories in general. It's as if none of them "matter" or are non-canon - because they can always rewind time or whatever. There's a lack of permanence, and the storylines get very muddled when you don't know which timeline you're supposed to be in.


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## Morrus (Jun 29, 2022)

Retreater said:


> I don't care for multiverse stories in general.



Well, you don’t care for _things_ in general.


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## ART! (Jun 29, 2022)

The dates in the original list are the years in which those movies _take place_, i.e. after the 5-year "blip" and proceeding from there.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 29, 2022)

I have enjoyed each of the movies as I watched them, even if for most of them I afterward felt like a few changes could have made them tighter.

I did really like Shang-Chi, and my only complaint was how non-lethal the villain's minions were.

Black Widow probably would have been really cool if it had come out in 2017, but I generally loathe prequels.

Spider-Man in Europe was pretty good. Spider-Man in nostalgiaville was also pretty good. The world building and logic of how society is responding to the blip is not as fleshed out as I'd like.

Eternals worked. Again, I would like some indication that the rest of the world is responding to these crazy events. I do wish the plot did not have some contrivances. Like, if Rob Stark doesn't take Salma Hayek back to her ranch, the good guys never find out what's going on, and the world is destroyed. Also, how in the hell did the alien monster things know that the main characters were going to be going to the South American rainforest, such that they were able to travel all the way from what, Canada, Alaska? On foot? To arrive just in time to attack them?

I know. I know. Comic book logic.

I felt that the multiverse of madness did a bad job creating its villain. I could see that character becoming a villain, but the movie did not do the work to show it, and make it compelling. Instead of having a strongly motivated villain, it had someone who was basically insane, and thus is more of someone to pity as a victim, rather than root for the defeat of.

Okay. Clearly I care a lot about the MCU.

The Loki TV show was great, even though it did not involve the character Loki, because I believe he did not ever at all trick anyone.

Wanda vision was really groundbreaking. I can forgive the ending not quite landing because the pandemic messed it up.

Falcon and the Winter soldier likewise, had some great stuff, but seemed messed up by the pandemic forcing rewrites.

I had a lot of fun with Hawkeye, even though kingpin felt very different from his appearance in Daredevil.

I'm very much enjoying Ms. Marvel.


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## Morrus (Jun 29, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Does the TV count?



If you want it to! I’m not your dad.


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## ART! (Jun 29, 2022)

RangerWickett said:


> I'm very much enjoying Ms. Marvel.



Ms Marvel _miiiiiight_ be my favorite D+ MCU series thus far. It's a great-looking show with a strong cast, and it's charming as all get-out.


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## Morrus (Jun 29, 2022)

ART! said:


> Ms Marvel _miiiiiight_ be my favorite D+ MCU series thus far. It's a great-looking show with a strong cast, and it's charming as all get-out.



We tried it, but American high school children is a hard sell for us. We have up after a couple of episodes.


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## TheHand (Jun 29, 2022)

I feel like the movies have been very uneven and disconnected in this Phase, where everything before felt much more interwoven and connected (esp after Phase 2). The movies have been mostly "fine", but a few notes:

1) I felt like ScarJo got a weak send-off in her own movie. Florence Pugh took center stage and it felt like her movie. While she was great in the role, it felt like the writing gave Black Widow herself a very mediocre story, a disappointing finale for a character we've seen since Iron Man 2.

2) Shang-Chi was "fun" and I enjoyed it, but it didn't really stick with me. It kind of glossed over the best stuff between Shang-Chi and his father at the end, then just became a giant CGI war that felt like a weird sequel to the _other _Disney dragon movie with Akwafina.

3) Spider-Man: Far From Home: Another "this was fine" movie. Probably the weakest of the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies for me. Never gave it a second watch.

4) Eternals: This one really seemed like wasted potential to me. I was really looking forward to a deep dive into the MCU's take on the Celestials and it left me pretty underwhelmed. It really didn't feel like an MCU movie to me in the end, and I don't think I need to revisit any of those characters.

5) Spider-Man: No Way Home: The best of this Phase. Leaned into the nostalgia, yes, but somehow it made it all work!

6) Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness: I'd call this one good, not great. My biggest gripe would be that I wanted some more character moments, but it seemed like it started running with the action and never gave us a chance to breathe.

-
NOW the Marvel TV shows on the other hand I've really been enjoying. I think the Marvel team must have their A-List team working on those. I think even the weakest Marvel TV show is better than most of the Phase 4 movies. My enjoyment of those, best to least is:

Moon Knight (_Loved this character since I was a kid_)
Wanda Vision
Ms Marvel (could beat Wanda/Moon Knight by the end)
Loki
Falcon & Winter Soldier
Hawkeye


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## Retreater (Jun 29, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Well, you don’t care for _things_ in general.



Very true. Though, I did like Obi-Wan Kenobi and the Mandalorian.  
For more recent MCU offerings, I really enjoyed Thor Ragnarok and the Guardians of the Galaxy movies.


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## Umbran (Jun 29, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> I think that they are doing well. I have enjoyed all the above movies.




I enjoyed all of these films, too.

I have also enjoyed the TV shows, which are not technically part of the movie Phase, but deserve a bit of a mention as well.


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## Gradine (Jun 29, 2022)

My thoughts:
Black Widow - Great movie, one of the best in the MCU. Certainly has more humanity than most of the series, and I say that as someone who loves the action punchy laser shooty spectacle of it all as well.

Shang-Chi - This was fun. Trevor felt entirely unnecessary and I didn't particularly enjoy his contributions, and I say that as someone who loved the Iron Man 3 twist.

Spider-Man 2 - Great movie, Jake G nailed it as Mysterio. Again, nothing in the MCU really rises above "that was really fun" but yeah, this was really fun.

Eternals - To quote one review I saw: "the only remotely relatable thing in this movie is that I, too, would fly straight into the sun if Gemma Chan broke up me." I appreciate they were trying something new here. I just also wished it had been good. Or even... not terrible.

Spider-Mans - Again a really great movie. Andrew G stole the show for me. 

Doctor Strange - Started out pretty weak, but built to a hell of a climax. I don't even like Stephen that much. It was just really good. Way to finally give Elizabeth Olsen something interesting to do. And Rachel McAdams too! Two of the generations' legitimately greatest actresses finally get something to do in a Marvel movie.

Oh yeah I guess there's the TV shows

Wandavision - Spectacular. Probably still the best overall piece of MCU content. The exploration of loss and grief. Vision dropping one the greatest lines in screenwriting history. The increasingly unsettling and ultimately tragic framing device. Randall Park doing card tricks. What's not to love?

Falcon & Winter Soldier - You could not pay me to watch this. How little I care.

Loki - This was fun, if not groundbreaking. Owen Wilson is brilliant, though.

What If... - Got about halfway through, I think? Some of the episodes were great (Zombies, Dr. Strange) the rest were varying degrees of <shrug>, though Captain Carter was at least fun to watch, as was the "holy crap Ant-Man is terrifying" moment. Just couldn't bring myself to care about any of it,

Hawkeye - Kate and Yelena are best girls and I will not hear anything otherwise. Speaking of some of the best actresses of _their _generation. Clint I could take or leave though. Preferably leave.

Moon Knight - Watched the first two episodes or so. It was fun. I keep meaning to finish it, but it didn't really grab me.

Ms. Marvel - Some of the best directing in the MCU, and holy hell what a find Iman Vellani is turning out to be. Still only two episodes in so far, but I have every intention of catching back up when I can. Could be my new favorite MCU thing.


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## Jer (Jun 29, 2022)

I think they're doing fine as individual movies.  Eternals wasn't a disappointment because I had my expectations set very, very low but it was definitely the weakest of the post-Engame films.  Haven't seen Doctor Strange yet tho - we were going to go to the theater and then my wife got covid.  We'll probably watch it this weekend.

I've been enjoying the TV shows a bit more than the films tbh.  Moon Knight and Ms Marvel are possibly benefiting from recency bias but they are both really good, and I enjoyed a recent rewatch of Wandavision as well.  Loki was great, Hawkeye was fine - enjoyable and I wouldn't say no if my family wanted to watch it again but I'm not champing at the bit to do it.  The only dud for me so far was Falcon and Winter Soldier - which I thought was really a dropped ball at the time (especially the ending - it has the most wishy-washy, nonsensical and disappointing ending of a Marvel series so far IMO) but I've read they had to change things up and rush things along a lot because of covid and everything after has been better so I buy it. I just have no desire to go back and watch it again.


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## Lidgar (Jun 29, 2022)

Hit or miss, with not a clear unifying theme yet (although there are hints dropped here and there). 

The films are mostly enjoyable following their formula. I tend to like their more comedic-hero films more, so looking forward to Thor 4.


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## Davies (Jun 29, 2022)

Increasingly unimpressed.


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## Tonguez (Jun 29, 2022)

The new movies have been mid tier and divergent but I actually like that as it allows the MCU to experiment and gain scope before it launches on the ‘next big thing’.

The fact is a lot of the original movies 10 years ago were mid tier too (Thor, Ironman 2 and 3, Hulk)

With the 10-Ring Easter eggs in Ms Marvel and the cameos in MoM it seems that the elements are now being blended together to move into the new trajectory(s)


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## Morrus (Jun 29, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> The fact is a lot of the original movies 10 years ago were mid tier too (Thor, Ironman 2 and 3, Hulk)



well yeah. That’s what mid-tier means.


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## Nikosandros (Jun 29, 2022)

1) *Black Widow:* Very weak
2) *Shang-Chi:* Very good
3) *Spider-Man Far from Home:* Good
4) *Eternals:* OK
5) *Spider-Man No Way Home:* OK
6) *Doctor Strange:* Very good


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## payn (Jun 29, 2022)

Just realized I haven't seen any of these except the first spider man. Nobody is really telling me to either.


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## ART! (Jun 29, 2022)

Morrus said:


> We tried it, but American high school children is a hard sell for us. We have up after a couple of episodes.



I can see that - it's a very specific style or subgenre of show, especially when compared to something like _Falcon & the Winter Soldier_, which is very straightforward classic MCU stuff.


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## Tonguez (Jun 29, 2022)

Morrus said:


> We tried it, but American high school children is a hard sell for us. We have up after a couple of episodes.



Theres very little American high school after the first two episodes,its more an examination of Pakistani teen life in the west (the cultural elements have been really well done)



Morrus said:


> well yeah. That’s what mid-tier means.




Well yeah, but that could just say that the new movies are pretty on par with most of the MCU - there have been some high tier marvels, but most of the movies have been mid tier and consistent with the Marvel formula.
The one time they diverted from formula and gave us the melodrama of the Eternals it got widely panned (though I dont think it was as bad as Thor Dork World or Ironman v Guy Pearce)


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## Cadence (Jun 29, 2022)

payn said:


> Just realized I haven't seen any of these except the first spider man. Nobody is really telling me to either.




You should see Black Widow, especially if you liked Hawkeye.

And if you didn't like Hawkeye you should watch it again and realize that you really did like it.


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## Nikosandros (Jun 29, 2022)

Morrus said:


> We tried it, but American high school children is a hard sell for us. We have up after a couple of episodes.



I was skeptical because of the genre, but I'm actually loving it.


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## briggart (Jun 29, 2022)

1) Black Widow: It was ok on its own. As part of MCU, it would have been better in the middle of phase 2, allowing to flesh out Natasha a bit more and stand on her own.  I always felt that in all the other movies she was, she has always been defined by her relations to male characters (Hawkeye, Cap, Hulk).
2) Haven't seen it.
3) Liked it, but being familiar with the comics, the "Mysterio is the bad guy" reveal didn't do a thing for me. I've watched it with a friend who didn't know who Mysterio was supposed to be, and they were more excited by it.
4) Worst of the bunch for me. Better than Thor 2 and Iron man 2, but close to the bottom of my personal MCU rankings.
5) Best of the bunch. Plus Matt Murdock!!!!!!!!!!
6) I had high hopes for this, but it fell a bit short. I would have preferred if Wanda falling to the Dark Side happened/started during this movie, setting her up as the antagonist/villain for Strange 3, rather than in between Wandavision and this. 

Overall, compared to phase 1, phase 4 feels more disjointed. Phase 1 movie were clearly more self-contained, yet they still manage to feel like they were heading toward some common destination, thanks to the Fury/SHIELD cameos and shorts. I don't get the same vibe for phase 4 yet.


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## Blue (Jun 29, 2022)

For me, I need to include the D+ series as well because I think they are an important part of the tapestry that is getting woven.

I feel this is a bit like Phase I.  I think we are all closest and most used to to Phase II -> Phase III with all of the interconnections and story building, and now we are stepping back to some stand-alones and new characters and plots.  About half of what is getting put before us are introduction of "Not-Avengers", and the other half about "post-Avengers: where are they now".

Black Widow was ... weak.  Especially the third Act.  I see what they wanted to do.  The stakes of all of those widows worldwide.  They haven't sold it.  They need more that Pugh to sell it, though she did an excellent job.  David Harbor did a good job too with what he was given.  It was a good vehicle to pass the torch - but it shouldn't have been; it should have been made a decade earlier.

WandaVision was fantastic, and a required bridge from Endgame to MoM.  But it stands on it's own.  That said, it you didn't like the framing it could be a real turn-off.

Eternals was a bit handicapped by the really long span they have been hear and not a single bit of foreshadowing elsewhere in Phases I-III.  That will likely be a recurring issue when mutants and such are introduced, and already was with Inhumans.

Loki was very entertaining, but they missed the core aspect of him being a trickster - even with at the end trying to be worthy of trust, getting up to that point need to be full of effortlessly clever tricks and pranks, some "just because" and some filled with devilish cunning and long set-ups.

Spidey: Far from Home was quite good.  I think that a little more time so we were in the "multiverse" mood and then the fake-out would have been even better.

Falcon and the Winter Soldier was more traditional MCU, well done, spending some effort on racism, introducing new players, and advancing the post-Avengers state of the MCU.

Shang-Chi was very enjoyable,  Had some easter eggs and a post credits tie-in, but otherwise was just introducing.  I echo the common complaint about too much big-CGI fight at end.

Hawkeye I greatly enjoyed.  It was in some ways more standard Marvel-ly, like F&WS, but it also had a heck of a lot of heart in it.  And humor that wasn't all snark.  It was not a fantastic piece of television - but it was a very watchable piece of television that made me craving more after ever episode.  It was the comfort food done right.

Moonknight was interesting to me.  My wife didn't like it as much, and I generally just adored Oscar Isaac.  Not sure how Marvel-ly it was.

Spidey: No Way Home ... I never saw the Andrew Garfield ones, the twist of the three Spideys was ruined by the internet, and frankly Spider-man: Into the Spider-verse already existed.  Between those this had an uphill climb for me.  It succeeded, I actually really liked it.  But It was a battle.  Doc Ock and Green Goblin were the two that pushed it into greatness for me.  OMG Willem DeFoe.

Doc Strange II: Stranger Things was smaller then I expected.  Smaller?  The stakes weren't on the scale of some of the others.  The deaths were plentiful and outdid the stakes.  I liked seeing all the corrupt Docs, and the Illuminati (also ruined by the internet).  But it felt like they spent big capital - like Wanda - on a movie that wasn't all that big in meaning, just in distance traveled.  Still 7/10, but hey.

Ms. Marvel we are enjoying a lot.  Lots of "Janus" -- time both in and out of the mask leading to who am I and who do I want to be.  Spidey is a classic for that, and here it's shown well.  It's the least time spent "doing heroics" of any of the shows about heroes, but I'm more than okay with that.


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## Blue (Jun 29, 2022)

payn said:


> Just realized I haven't seen any of these except the first spider man. Nobody is really telling me to either.



Go stream Shang-Chi.

Hmm, I am telling you to.  But nobody is telling you to.  I must be nobody!  (*Dons Odysseus cosplay.)


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## Stalker0 (Jun 29, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> The fact is a lot of the original movies 10 years ago were mid tier too (Thor, Ironman 2 and 3, Hulk)



I would say the major difference between then and now is the bar has been raised. We now how high quality marvel movies can look like, Marvel has figured out the formula, so to me it becomes pretty obvious when they are going big versus phoning it in.

*Movies*
1) Black Widow: Terrible. Super generic, nothing interesting happens, terrible send off for ScarJo.
2) Shang-Chi: To me probably the best of the movies so far, though still doesn't compare to phase 2/3 movies. But its quite a solid plot, and actual interesting villain, and a well put together origin story.
3) Far from Home: Solid enough, decent action, decent plot, decent heart.
4) Eternals: I appreciated the attempt at a more epic and dramatic movie, but it just didn't really land.
5) No way Home: On first watch, its probably the best of the movies so far. Fun, intense, cool cameos. If you give it a reexamine though, the plot is REALLY thin (downright bonkers), and frankly is an insult to Dr Strange. Also this Peter Parker has never had issues with his morals, yet suddenly he needs the "Great Power/Great Responsibility" speech from Aunt May....nah doesn't really fit.
6) MoM: Just mediocre, would like to have seen better for Wanda.

*Tv Shows:*
1) Wandavision: Cool, interesting, fresh.
2) F/WS: About as generic and inoffensive as you can get.
3) Loki: Its pretty terrible ultimately. Its weirdly the "most important" thing plotwise going on, as in everything else is secondary to its plot. I'm not a fan of infinitity stones in the drawer....wow, way to make every event that we have seen so far become absolutely meaningless. And the Loki we see on screen is not our Loki.
4) Moon Knight: Really good, may be my favorite.
5) Hawkeye: Surpringingly solid.
6) Ms Marvel: I'm really enjoying it so far, we will see how it finishes.


Ultimately the problem with Phase 4 is, it doesn't have the fresh magic of the Phase I movies (the Wow fact of seeing superheroes on screen and making it look good), and doesn't yet have an Avengeresque movie that gives us the awe of the combined cinematic universe. I really thought MoM was going to be that movie....and it really fell flat in that department.

At the end of the day, we know that the superhero genre is going to get played out, just as every genre in movie history has, from westerns to alien movies, to zombies, etc. Its inevitable, and the question is....when its going to happen to marvel. Right now, I feel like we are getting there with Phase 4.


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## Beleriphon (Jun 29, 2022)

If we're counting the Disney+ exclusives then Loki was fantastic. I'm looking forward to Love and Thunder.

Of the movies only, Shang-Chi was awesome. I've never really read the comics but the movie was excellent. Now Way Home also outstanding. Will be renting Multiverse of Madness.

I have no interest in the other movies. And I've seen and enjoyed every other MCU movie until now, so there was just something about them that didn't grab me.


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## payn (Jun 29, 2022)

Blue said:


> Go stream Shang-Chi.
> 
> Hmm, I am telling you to.  But nobody is telling you to.  I must be nobody!  (*Dons Odysseus cosplay.)



You are the first!


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## RangerWickett (Jun 30, 2022)

payn said:


> You are the first!




I'll be the second. Shang-Chi is my favorite film of phase 4. It has one of the upper tier villains of the MCU.


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## Hex08 (Jun 30, 2022)

I've enjoyed each of the post-Endgame movies with the Spider-Man ones being the best. Black Widow really good but could have been better, Taskmaster was wasted. All were fun though, like most Marvel movies. Eternals was the weakest (It should have been a Disney+ show, just too much going on to be a movie. It needed more time to tell its story). Doctor Strange catches a lot of flak but I liked that it leaned into Sam Rami's B-horror movie background and that it wrapped up WandaVision better than the TV show did. Between Eternals & Multiverse of Madness we saw Marvel stepping out of their comfort zone and I think we need more of that because most MCU movies have become very formulaic.

I think we put too much of a shine on the pre-Endgame movies, there were a lot of movies there and many were no better than the current crop. I love Thor but his first two movies weren't great, nor were Iron Man 2 & 3. Hulk has its problems, and in Captain America: The First Avenger he didn't fight any Nazi's during WW2. Civil War (Avengers 2.5) was mostly spectacle that wasted its opportunity to more thoroughly follow up on Winter Soldier (my favorite MCU movie).  I'm a huge Captain Marvel fan and love Brie Larson in the role but that movie also could have been stronger. (I'm not crapping on any of them, I think even the worst MCU movie is entertaining).

The TV shows have been hit or miss as well. So far Ms. Marvel has been really good. Hawkeye was also pretty good. WandaVision was great until the last episode where all of the psychological drama was wrapped up with a superhero fight, yawn. Who were the bad guys in Falcon & The Winter Soldier and why should I have any empathy for them? Drop them and the show was pretty good. Loki was a lot of fun until the exposition heavy finale. Moon Knight (one of my favorite Marvel Heroes) was really good, but I felt robbed by them skipping out on some of the later fight scenes, what started out as a cool storytelling tool was annoying at the end; and Mr. Knight was a wasted character. What If? was tons of fun.


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## Thomas Shey (Jun 30, 2022)

I've liked pretty much everything; I thought Eternals was the weakest of the bunch, but was still watchable.


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## Stalker0 (Jun 30, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I think we put too much of a shine on the pre-Endgame movies, there were a lot of movies there and many were no better than the current crop. I love Thor but his first two movies weren't great, nor were Iron Man 2 & 3. Hulk has its problems, and in Captain America: The First Avenger he didn't fight any Nazi's during WW2. Civil War (Avengers 2.5) was mostly spectacle that wasted its opportunity to more thoroughly follow up on Winter Soldier (my favorite MCU movie).  I'm a huge Captain Marvel fan and love Brie Larson in the role but that movie also could have been stronger. (I'm not crapping on any of them, I think even the worst MCU movie is entertaining).



I think it comes down to:


Burnout. There have been a lot of marvel out there, and its easy to get oversaturated compared to the Phase 2 days.
Higher expectations: Just as we expect better effects in our modern movies, now that we have seen the best of marvel, the bar has been raised. We want movies that keep pushing the bar, not fall underneath it.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 30, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Just talking movies, how do you think the MCU is doing since Endgame and that phase ended?
> 
> As a reminder here’s the list:
> 
> ...



I won’t stick just to the movies, actually, because post End Game MCU exist much more in the tv shows than previous phases of the MCU. 

And I think that’s awesome.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 30, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> 2) F/WS: About as generic and inoffensive as you can get.



This is hilarious to me, because it is the only mcu story I can’t hunk of that was actually IRL controversial, and one of the few that _challenged_ the audience.


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## FitzTheRuke (Jun 30, 2022)

I like all of them to greater and lesser degrees. I mean, Eternals had a lot of problems, but it was far better than its reviews would suggest. The TV shows have mostly been fun, too.

You're probably right that Thor Love & Thunder will be one of the better of the phase. We'll see, but I trust Taika!


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## Tonguez (Jun 30, 2022)

doctorbadwolf said:


> This is hilarious to me, because it is the only mcu story I can’t hunk of that was actually IRL controversial, and one of the few that _challenged_ the audience.



Not sure if I cant’t hunk is a typo or some unfamiliar idiom, but it did jump out at me…

But yeah, I dont think that FWS was inoffensive, as it did address some real world issues. The genericness too is perhaps the limitation of FWS being the least fantastic of the MCU brands, supersoldiers dont go that much further than other ‘special forces’ spy thriller movies


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## Hussar (Jun 30, 2022)

Yeah, I wasn't really thinking that Falcon and the Winter Soldier was inoffensive.  I mean, there's a lot to unpack there with the race issues and it really does hit the whole issue of privilege pretty squarely on the head with Bucky just completely not understanding why anyone would refuse the shield.  Thought it was very well handled without being preachy or hammering the point flat.  F&WS and Hawkeye are probably my favorites of the D+ serial offerings.  

Then again, I liked the "My Life as a Weapon" Hawkeye comic so, considering that the plot of both F&WS and Hawkeye are drawn from there it might explain a lot.


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## Ixal (Jun 30, 2022)

The ones I have seen, including TV, have been average at best.

Imo the Marvel story ended with Endgame and now they are just frantically milking the cow until it drops dead.


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## delericho (Jun 30, 2022)

I've felt that the movies I've seen have been pretty weak. The series have been much stronger.

But it feels like they're kind of done, really.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jun 30, 2022)

It's a long time since I've seen a Marvel movie that has been better than mediocre. The last ones to reach "quite good" where Thor: Ragnarök and Black Panther.


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## wicked cool (Jun 30, 2022)

other than the last spiderman movie i think they are a big step back from the best of phase 1. i did enjoy the last strange movie as it felt like a what if story. 

the covid excuse is pure crap! The boys, peaky blinders, stranger things were all filmed under the same covid extremes and are excellent shows with some potentially becoming movies. Top Gun nailed it and the marvel movies didnt. 

Top gun had real movie buzz. It had the water cooler talk like GOT did when it first came out and Camerons Avatar along with End Game or for the kids Frozen. 

Top gun has characters you are routing for. edge of your seat how they getting out of this just like end game etc. Spiderman has some of that and it was what the audiences is cheering for . The rest of them dont have that.


*Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings -decent movie with some good cameos but not edge of your seat and theres no connection to him even when you think hes dead *
*Spider-Man: Far From Home-was ok -the cast is solid but clearly the movie after is a lot better and shows how a good movie can be made *
*Eternals   -probably the most wooden cast ive seen in a movie . Kumail ias probably the most human/interesting  of them. The argument that if you make is they are not human doesnt really work as most of the guardians arent and vision isnt . People are most excited  for a line from blade and he isnt even on screen  *

i have high hopes for Thor as it looks fun


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## MGibster (Jun 30, 2022)

Morrus said:


> For me, these movies were all OK (Black Widow and Dr Strange were weak, and Eternals wasn’t good), but they all feel mid-tier MCU to me. I’m still waiting for one that will knock it out of the park. Maybe Thor next month?



I think the only one I didn't care for was Eternals because I didn't care one whit about any of the characters and it felt completely disconnected from the rest of the MCU.  I quite liked Black Widow and Shang-Chi, though I was bit bored by the CGI fest fight between Shaun and the big monster at the end.  

Do you think part of of the problem might be that you're suffering from comic book movie fatigue?  I think I first felt some fatigue when I saw Captain Marvel.  I thought it was fine enough movie, but I didn't enjoy it as much as I think I would have had I not spent the better part of a decade watching so many comic book movies.  I liked the Dr. Strange movie, but I couldn't be bothered to see it in the theater instead opting for Disney+.  I'd like to see Thor, but I don't know if I'm going to bother going to the theater.


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## Morrus (Jun 30, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Do you think part of of the problem might be that you're suffering from comic book movie fatigue?



Oh, for sure! That set in after about 8 movies, and now we're, what, 30 or so in? And that's just Marvel.


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## Ixal (Jun 30, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I think the only one I didn't care for was Eternals because I didn't care one whit about any of the characters and it felt completely disconnected from the rest of the MCU.  I quite liked Black Widow and Shang-Chi, though I was bit bored by the CGI fest fight between Shaun and the big monster at the end.
> 
> Do you think part of of the problem might be that you're suffering from comic book movie fatigue?  I think I first felt some fatigue when I saw Captain Marvel.  I thought it was fine enough movie, but I didn't enjoy it as much as I think I would have had I not spent the better part of a decade watching so many comic book movies.  I liked the Dr. Strange movie, but I couldn't be bothered to see it in the theater instead opting for Disney+.  I'd like to see Thor, but I don't know if I'm going to bother going to the theater.



Hopefully.
Comic movies dominated the screen for more than a decade now. Time for something different.


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## Reynard (Jun 30, 2022)

In a word: extraneous. 

Some of it i have liked, some I have loved, and some I don't care for. But none of it is necessary, and I don't have any confidence whatever the "next Endgame" is will even compare.

But, it could be worse. It could be Star Wars.


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## eyeheartawk (Jun 30, 2022)

If there is some overall metaplot to build up like before I sure would like to see Kang before, I don't know, the decade is out.

That'd be nice.

Like, get going already.


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## wicked cool (Jun 30, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I think the only one I didn't care for was Eternals because I didn't care one whit about any of the characters and it felt completely disconnected from the rest of the MCU.  I quite liked Black Widow and Shang-Chi, though I was bit bored by the CGI fest fight between Shaun and the big monster at the end.
> 
> Do you think part of of the problem might be that you're suffering from comic book movie fatigue?  I think I first felt some fatigue when I saw Captain Marvel.  I thought it was fine enough movie, but I didn't enjoy it as much as I think I would have had I not spent the better part of a decade watching so many comic book movies.  I liked the Dr. Strange movie, but I couldn't be bothered to see it in the theater instead opting for Disney+.  I'd like to see Thor, but I don't know if I'm going to bother going to the theater.



there definitely some over saturation but have you seen the boys or umbrella academy . Doom patrol and the other dc stuff is a little silly on hbo but the characters themselves are in my opinion a little more interesting. 

the villians on these shows are boring 2. 
Loki-the agency
spiderman-a terrible version of mysterio
hawkeye-We have a great villian but not the same from netflix. 
eternals-awful
widow-mind controlled sisters 
wanda-Its funny how people dont like the fact that shes the villian
falcon and soldier-bunch of no names . maybe human society
chi-his dad plus a boring demon   

latest spiderman-great villains. Almost 2 many but on the edge of your seat action


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## ART! (Jun 30, 2022)

I think _Eternals_ could have been better if:
a) they let Chloe Zhao use the core concepts and characters, but make a full-on Chloe Zhao movie, i.e. without trying to feel like an MCU movie and the story, action, and pacing beats required therein.
b) they had hired a director more in line with their usual directors, to make a "normal"-feeling MCU movie.
c) they had made it a Disney+ series, with 6 (or whatever) episodes to explore the characters and flesh things out.


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## Reynard (Jun 30, 2022)

ART! said:


> I think Eternals could have been better if:
> a) they let Chloe Zhao use the core concepts and characters, but make a full-on Chloe Zhao movie, i.e. without trying to feel like an MCU movie and the story, action, and pacing beats required therein.
> b) they had hired a director more in line with their usual directors, to make a "normal" MCU movie.
> c) they had made it a Disney+ series, with 6 (or whatever) episodes to explore the characters and flesh things out.



d) if theyhad hired more than 2 decent actors for the whole thing
e) they hadn't stolen the whole end fight from Justice League.


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## Ixal (Jun 30, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> the villians on these shows are boring



Marvel always had a problem with villians.

Thanos was good because of the long build up and because his motivation kinda made sense for him and he was not a generic megalomaniac.

And I liked Ronan because his one-dimension character fit what he was supposed to be.

But which other Marvel throwaway villian was done well?


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## ART! (Jun 30, 2022)

Reynard said:


> d) if theyhad hired more than 2 decent actors for the whole thing



I think all the people cast are good to very good actors _in general_, but Chloe Zhao's style seems to involve having the actors suppress or tamp things down, so that things aren't so spelled out for the audience. In _Eternals_, that approach did not work for a lot of the audience.


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## Blue (Jun 30, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> the covid excuse is pure crap! The boys, peaky blinders, stranger things were all filmed under the same covid extremes and are excellent shows with some potentially becoming movies. Top Gun nailed it and the marvel movies didnt.



I hadn't realized that The Boys, Peaky Blinders, and Stranger Things shared cast between the three series that needed to be written out because they could not attend filmings, like Dr. Strange was with WandaVision.  Or that those three series had interlocking story arcs that were redone because release order changed fairly drastically because of differing country Covid requirements.

Sorry, none of your examples address the impact of Covid on the Marvel movies.


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## Tonguez (Jun 30, 2022)

Ixal said:


> Marvel always had a problem with villians.
> 
> Thanos was good because of the long build up and because his motivation kinda made sense for him and he was not a generic megalomaniac.
> 
> ...




Hela
Emil Blonsky
Original Loki (before they made him an anti-hero)
Tony Stark


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## wicked cool (Jun 30, 2022)

Ixal said:


> Marvel always had a problem with villians.
> 
> Thanos was good because of the long build up and because his motivation kinda made sense for him and he was not a generic megalomaniac.
> 
> ...



well other than Thanos who makes up 2 movies

Killmonger-might be one of the best

vulture-i thought they did a good job with him. Keaton has now appeared in another movie 

winter soldier-obviously now a hero but a good villian in the movies 

kingpin on netflix-great villian. probably one of the 2 reasons daredevil was so good

Loki-became a good guy but a good villian


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## wicked cool (Jun 30, 2022)

Blue said:


> I hadn't realized that The Boys, Peaky Blinders, and Stranger Things shared cast between the three series that needed to be written out because they could not attend filmings, like Dr. Strange was with WandaVision.  Or that those three series had interlocking story arcs that were redone because release order changed fairly drastically because of differing country Covid requirements.
> 
> Sorry, none of your examples address the impact of Covid on the Marvel movies.



my argument is they succeeded in a time of covid. theres other shows that have international casts that also suceeded.Sure they were delayed in some cases . maybe disney rushed it as their streaming service couldnt be delayed. Its still an excuse and a poor 1. cant be a disney thing as the mandalorian seemed to succeed. Now cumberbatch didnt stop acting during this time and fiege actually said that strange didnt appear due to them not wanting to take away from scarlet witch. Covid wasnt a factor


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## Hex08 (Jun 30, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> other than the last spiderman movie i think they are a big step back from the best of phase 1. i did enjoy the last strange movie as it felt like a what if story.



I think this is part of the problem with people's expectations. Why are we comparing the current crop of MCU movies to the _best _of phase 1? If that's the bar then very few will hit it. Iron Man was great and while there have been some movies that hit that bar it still stands as one of the best MCU movies, IMO.


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## Hex08 (Jun 30, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> my argument is they succeeded in a time of covid. theres other shows that have international casts that also suceeded.Sure they were delayed in some cases . maybe disney rushed it as their streaming service couldnt be delayed. Its still an excuse and a poor 1. cant be a disney thing as the mandalorian seemed to succeed. Now cumberbatch didnt stop acting during this time and fiege actually said that strange didnt appear due to them not wanting to take away from scarlet witch. Covid wasnt a factor



Just because COVID wasn't a factor for some productions (and you are probably downplaying that a bit) it doesn't mean it wasn't a factor for others. Both can be true at the same time. Just like some restaurants survived the pandemic and others didn't, situations vary and painting every production with the same brush is probably a bit reductionist.


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## DeviousQuail (Jun 30, 2022)

I enjoyed the experience of seeing all of these movies in theaters. None of them were top tier offerings but each one had enough good stuff to outweigh the bad/dumb. The decision to do shows and movies that all tie together has been a big swing for the MCU. It has let them try some different stuff alongside more traditional Marvel offerings. The jury is still out on whether this was a good idea but so far I like it.

This phase of movies, as much as Feige doesn't want us calling it that, still feels small. We've had 6 movies but realistically only 4 that feel like they actually belong to this new phase. Black Widow should've been in Phase 3 and I treat it as such. Far From Home also felt like an epilogue to Phase 3 instead of something meant to kick off another phase. That leaves Shang Chi, Eternals, No Way Home, and MoM. Each of those movies explored new territory and have broadened the scope of what's in play for the future of the MCU. That's really cool and even if these movies aren't the best of the MCU I think they are setting the stage for what is to come.


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## wicked cool (Jun 30, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Just because COVID wasn't a factor for some productions (and you are probably downplaying that a bit) it doesn't mean it wasn't a factor for others. Both can be true at the same time. Just like some restaurants survived the pandemic and others didn't, situations vary and painting every production with the same brush is probably a bit reductionist.



you could be right

a good test for this argument will be the new mission impossible movie. Well documented that covid caused problems during production .


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## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 30, 2022)

What do I think of Marvel post-Endgame?

...I don't think of Marvel. The first (and only) post-Endgame thing I've seen was _Spider Man: We Like Titles With Home In It_, but that's because I was on a 12 hour plane flight and why not?

The inter-connection of the MCU, which was a strength, is now a weakness with all the TV shows ... for me. I have AppleTV+, HBO Max, Paramount+, and Netflix. There are already approximately a billion good shows and movies I want to watch (right now I am behind on Borgen and WeCrashed). Plus I have been out of the movie-going habit for some time (I watched Tenet in theaters, and ... that's it).

I just don't want to commit the time it would take to watch the MCU anymore. I don't have any real desire to have the StarWars/MCU ... Disney+ channel. Between all the media I already watch, the sports I like to watch, working, travel, doing things with friends and family ... the MCU seems more like an obligation than a treat.

PS- Andrew Garfield was pretty good in the Spider Man movie. But the best parts of that movie were the callbacks to the pre-MCU movies! Seriously, you can sum it up with- (1) Doctor Strange is a moron, (2) They fridged Marisa Tomei, (3) the whole movie made everything before meaningless, but (4) Willem Dafoe is da bomb, so it was okay.


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## Stalker0 (Jun 30, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I think this is part of the problem with people's expectations. Why are we comparing the current crop of MCU movies to the _best _of phase 1?



Because people's expectations increase as time goes on. A movie that used 90s CGI would be blasted today....because we can do better. The thinking goes, we have seen where the Marvel formula "works" and when it "fails". So why can't the filmmakers take the best of the marvel movies, and apply those lessons to keep making movies of that quality?


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## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 30, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Because people's expectations increase as time goes on. A movie that used 90s CGI would be blasted today....because we can do better. The thinking goes, we have seen where the Marvel formula "works" and when it "fails". So why can't the filmmakers take the best of the marvel movies, and apply those lessons to keep making movies of that quality?




....well, when you put it like that, it's pretty easy!

_Hey, stupid Hollywood people! Just make movies, you know, BUT BETTER! Do the stuff that's good, and more ... and the stuff that sucks?

Stop doing that. _


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## Blue (Jun 30, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> my argument is they succeeded in a time of covid. theres other shows that have international casts that also suceeded.Sure they were delayed in some cases . maybe disney rushed it as their streaming service couldnt be delayed. Its still an excuse and a poor 1. cant be a disney thing as the mandalorian seemed to succeed. Now cumberbatch didnt stop acting during this time and fiege actually said that strange didnt appear due to them not wanting to take away from scarlet witch. Covid wasnt a factor



I gave examples of how covid affected the interconnection of the shows, plus how different countries had different rules.  You come back with the Mandolorian which isn't interconnected nor filmed in different countries.  If you refuse to even acknowledge how these shows differed from your examples, there isn't much point in trying to have a reasonable conversation about it.


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## wicked cool (Jun 30, 2022)

Blue said:


> I gave examples of how covid affected the interconnection of the shows, plus how different countries had different rules.  You come back with the Mandolorian which isn't interconnected nor filmed in different countries.  If you refuse to even acknowledge how these shows differed from your examples, there isn't much point in trying to have a reasonable conversation about it.



i acknowledge it might have been a factor but wandavision was not 1? you brought up the covid connection . black widow movie was delayed . The movie overall wasnt that good. As far as i know i didnt have the problems that say a justice league had where you had problems on set /a superman with a moustache etc .Its not horrible but its not a phase 1 best movie. Theoretically these movies should bas good as the second part of phase 1. Cap 1/iron man 1/2 are initial releases and i would conceded not as good as later movies . Good movies but not great  

New York Times -Keven fiege quoted "nothing about mcu signigantly affected by coranuvirus (january 8/2021)

im not some immovable object that cant be convinced 

Phase 2 made a lot of money but most of the best of the phase 1 movies (my opinion) are much better than the best of phase 2 . i would argue that the latest spiderman movie was really really good 

checks of boxes for me-good story, good action, good acting . at times pulled on the heartstrings etc 

back to your restaurant analogy-the person down the street survived . Due to luck/solid ownership and maybe their chicken parm was a little bit better than the other


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## Rabulias (Jun 30, 2022)

eyeheartawk said:


> If there is some overall metaplot to build up like before I sure would like to see Kang before, I don't know, the decade is out.





Spoiler: RE: Kang



Supposedly he makes his MCU film debut February 17 2023 in _Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania_.


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## Sabathius42 (Jun 30, 2022)

I haven't seen 1 of these movies or any of the TV shows.  It's much more of a function of the creation of Disney+ (which I don't have access to) making it impossible for me to see the movies after a short delay than it is my lack of interest.


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## Hex08 (Jun 30, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> What do I think of Marvel post-Endgame?
> 
> ...I don't think of Marvel. The first (and only) post-Endgame thing I've seen was _Spider Man: We Like Titles With Home In It_, but that's because I was on a 12 hour plane flight and why not?



Spider-Man: Home Alone?


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## Rabulias (Jun 30, 2022)

Ixal said:


> But which other Marvel throwaway villian was done well?



If they were done well, they would not be throwaway villains, no?

Some of Marvel's villains have been lackluster, but Zemo and Wenwu stand out to me as really great.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 30, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Spider-Man: Home Alone?




….. I would totally watch that.


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## Thomas Shey (Jun 30, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> If they were done well, they would not be throwaway villains, no?
> 
> Some of Marvel's villains have been lackluster, but Zemo and Wenwu stand out to me as really great.




Zemo suffered in the movie because he's relentlessly grim and doesn't interact with any of the heroes until the very end, though Bruhl does very well with the few interactions we get; but you get to see a more nuanced version of him in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, where he's had several years, the Blip, and his time in prison to reassess his purposes and get over his tragedy a bit.


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## Mezuka (Jun 30, 2022)

Morrus said:


> As a reminder here’s the list:
> 
> *Black Widow*
> *Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings *
> ...




I liked Black Widow's disfunction family. Great banter. But the last battle on the floating station didn't make any sense. So instead of a strong 8 it's a 7. I've seen it again on cable tv for free and enjoyed it.

The others are at best 6s. Eternals is a weak 4.

The only MCU Spider-man movie I've rewatched is Homecoming, a solid 8. The other two just don't grab me. I prefer Spider-man when he interacts with the other supers as part of a team. 

Multiverse was a big disappointment. 5 on 10.

So overall they are much weaker and they don't build up any overarching plot, so far.


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## Hex08 (Jun 30, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> and they don't build up any overarching plot, so far.



This is something I am generally ok with. Phase 1 didn't really start setting up the Thanos storyline until the last movie of the phase, Avengers, and we didn't even see Thanos until the very end. Between Loki, Spider-Man & Doctor Strange the groundwork for Kang and some big multiversal event is being set up and that seems quicker than phase 1.

The overarching plot is something I wish Marvel would stay away from for a bit. Eventually the movies are going to become as convoluted as the comics.


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## Zaukrie (Jul 1, 2022)

I liked all of them except The Eternals.


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## pukunui (Jul 1, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I liked all of them except The Eternals.



I've now seen every MCU film (and Disney+ show) _except _for _Eternals_, and that's because it's been so universally panned that none of my children even want to watch it. I would like to say I enjoyed them all, although there were definitely some that I liked more and others that I have no desire to watch again.

As for Phase 4, so far it feels more like an in-between phase, where they've been busy filling in gaps (e.g. _Black Widow_), sorting out the in-universe messes left behind by _Endgame_ and painstakingly slowly setting up the Next Big Thing.

It's possible that I wouldn't be so impatient if I had been following the MCU from the beginning. Instead I came late, after _Endgame _had already come out, and so I was more or less able to binge all of Phases 1-3 in a short span of time, so now Phase 4 just feels like it's taking forever to sort itself out. I suppose COVID hasn't helped in that regard either.


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## Thomas Shey (Jul 1, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I've now seen every MCU film (and Disney+ show) _except _for _Eternals_, and that's because it's been so universally panned that none of my children even want to watch it. I would like to say I enjoyed them all, although there were definitely some that I liked more and others that I have no desire to watch again.




I'll note I didn't dislike the Eternals--there were elements of it I liked quite a bit--but it just felt weaker than the other offerings.  I think part of that might just because it seems disconnected in a way even Shang-Chi didn't feel from the rest of the MCU, and part of it was too large a cast introduced all at once.



pukunui said:


> It's possible that I wouldn't be so impatient if I had been following the MCU from the beginning. Instead I came late, after _Endgame _had already come out, and so I was more or less able to binge all of Phases 1-3 in a short span of time, so now Phase 4 just feels like it's taking forever to sort itself out. I suppose COVID hasn't helped in that regard either.




It absolutely hasn't.  I know of at least one movie and two TV shows that were significantly delayed because of it.


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## Argyle King (Jul 1, 2022)

Some of it has been really good, but some of it has been a mess. 

Personally, I think the MCU is starting to care too much about flashy powers and is starting to forget about having a coherent story. The early movies worked well because (for the most part) they would have been enjoyable movies even without super powers.

I also think that more recent movies appear to be making an effort (whether intentional or not) to downplay the importance of earlier characters and events. Part of that also comes from haphazard management of powers. 

Certainly, comic books have flashy powers, but the MCU is starting to run into the 'Superman Problem' of constantly needing to stack more powers into contemporary versions of characters so as to keep up with the introduction of characters like MCU Captain Marvel, Hela*, and the growing powers of Scarlet Witch.

(*Hela at least had some caveat of saying her powers were stronger the longer she was in Asgard.)

It gets harder to write a coherent story when so many characters seem limitless in what they can do.


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## Argyle King (Jul 1, 2022)

Side Note: I actually enjoyed Black Widow.

A lot of people say they didn't like it. While there were aspects of it which I think could have been better, I enjoyed it. It felt more like Mission Impossible than Marvel, but I think that's how a Black Widow movie should be.


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## Zaukrie (Jul 1, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Side Note: I actually enjoyed Black Widow.
> 
> A lot of people say they didn't like it. While there were aspects of it which I think could have been better, I enjoyed it. It felt more like Mission Impossible than Marvel, but I think that's how a Black Widow movie should be.



We really liked it also


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## Rabulias (Jul 1, 2022)

I enjoyed _Black Widow._ It did feel late, and I would have preferred to see it released in its chronologically accurate spot after _Captain America: Civil War._ And I really would have liked to have also seen a Black Widow / Hawkeye team-up espionage flick. Maybe a prequel from their SHIELD days? Maybe even a full story about Budapest? Ah well, not to be...


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## DeviousQuail (Jul 1, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I've now seen every MCU film (and Disney+ show) _except _for _Eternals_, and that's because it's been so universally panned that none of my children even want to watch it. I would like to say I enjoyed them all, although there were definitely some that I liked more and others that I have no desire to watch again.
> 
> As for Phase 4, so far it feels more like an in-between phase, where they've been busy filling in gaps (e.g. _Black Widow_), sorting out the in-universe messes left behind by _Endgame_ and painstakingly slowly setting up the Next Big Thing.
> 
> It's possible that I wouldn't be so impatient if I had been following the MCU from the beginning. Instead I came late, after _Endgame _had already come out, and so I was more or less able to binge all of Phases 1-3 in a short span of time, so now Phase 4 just feels like it's taking forever to sort itself out. I suppose COVID hasn't helped in that regard either.



I'd suggest giving Eternals a try. I know I'm in a small group but I liked it enough to see it in theaters and again on D+. It has faults, there is no denying that, but there are some really fun parts and visuals to it as well. If you sat through Hulk, Thor: The Dark World, or Iron Man 2 then you've already seen the worst the MCU has to offer. 

If nothing else, Eternals seems to set the stage for a lot of stuff to come.


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## Older Beholder (Jul 1, 2022)

I'm enjoying phase 4,
They're taking more and more risks, and it feels like the directors are getting more of a voice to express they're own style with each film.
Although this began with James Gunn and Taika Waititi.

Black Widow I didn't see in cinema, (due to Covid), and while I was a little underwhelmed the first time I watched it, I've probably re-watched it more than any other MCU film, enjoying it more with each viewing.

I loved Eternals too, just filming on location with natural light made this one of the best looking movies in the superhero genre for me. 
I read that Chloe Zhao was asked if she wanted to direct Black Widow, but pitched an idea she had for an Eternals movie instead, which is interesting.


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## Hussar (Jul 1, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Personally, I think the MCU is starting to care too much about flashy powers and is starting to forget about having a coherent story. The early movies worked well because (for the most part) they would have been enjoyable movies even without super powers.



Which ones did you have in mind?  The first five MCU movies were:


Iron Man (2008) - Great
The Incredible Hulk (2008) - Not great
Iron Man 2 (2010) - Not great
Thor (2011) - fun, but, not exactly rocking the world
Captain America: The First Avenger (2011) - Great
So, to me, the first movies before Avengers were mostly pretty meh.  I did just do an MCU rewatch (mostly because I just got Disney+ and spent a couple of months on it ) and none of the movies were bad.  But, that being said, most of them are fun, popcorn movies and not a whole lot else.

Which, to me, is fine.  They're popcorn, big tent movies.  It's what it says on the tin, and that's what you get.


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## Hussar (Jul 1, 2022)

A further thought about super hero burn out.  

I'm not so much burned out by comic book movies  They're all different enough, for me, that it's okay.  That doesn't faze me too much.  What I am burned out of though is the Post Modern take on the genre we get every couple of months.  Things like The Boys, or Guardians of Justice or the Umbrella Academy (although I do like that one   Sue me, I'm not always consistent)

Look, I get it.  Everyone loves Alan Moore and they all want to show how much everyone would suck if they actually got super powers.  But, y'know what?  It's been done to death.  People suck.  Ok, great.  Showing me, show after show after show about how much people suck is far too close to the real world for my light entertainment, thank you very much.

Can we please let these types of shows die for a little while?  What's wrong with a bit of "Hey, here are the heroes, and they're going to help people because, well, they're generally pretty good people"?  Even something like Civil War was fine, AFAIC, because well, all the characters are still basically heroes.  I don't even mind anti-hero stuff where the good guy isn't all that good.

But, can we please stop banging the drum that people are all selfish assholes?  Just for a little while?


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## Argyle King (Jul 1, 2022)

Hussar said:


> Which ones did you have in mind?  The first five MCU movies were:
> 
> 
> Iron Man (2008) - Great
> ...




Iron Man and Captain America were the two which came to mind. In the case of Cap, the movie manages to be both a prequel and a sequel -while also being a good movie on its own.

Winter Soldier did a good job of addressing what it's like to be a soldier coming home to a country he no longer recognizes; addressing corruption in the govt; and being simultaneously a Cap movie and a Black Widow movie.

I would agree that some movies weren't great, but even the not-so-good ones (usually) paid attention to small details to help the overall story fit together. That includes finding ways to take characters which have a wide variety of power levels in the comics and present them in a cinematic universe in a way where they're all at least somewhat in the same ballpark of usefulness for a mission.

Edit: In contrast, Captain Marvel was introduced as just being immediately the best at everything -and also having gotten her powers in a way which was ridiculously easy, but that apparently nobody had ever considered trying before (or considered trying again afterwards).

So then other characters need to ramp up to meet that. Eventually, everyone becomes so juiced that they need to be written as being kinda morons to ever fail in a way which pushes the plot forward. Dr. Strange MoM is especially egregious at this during several points of the movie.


----------



## Rune (Jul 1, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Edit: In contrast, Captain Marvel was introduced as just being immediately the best at everything -and also having gotten her powers in a way which was ridiculously easy, but that apparently nobody had ever considered trying before (or considered trying again afterwards).



I’m not going to argue that Captain Marvel was the best film Marvel has to offer, but I have to wonder if you and I even watched the same movie. In the version I saw, it took Danvers the entire film to finally break through her Kree conditioning to become better than everyone else.

And getting blasted by an exploding infinity stone-powered engine so badly that you require an infusion of alien blood to survive strikes me as being neither an easy way to gain superpowers, nor easy to duplicate. In contrast, Captain America and Hulk (to name two from Phase 1) both got their powers comparatively pretty easily. And Thor was born with his.


----------



## Argyle King (Jul 1, 2022)

Rune said:


> I’m not going to argue that Captain Marvel was the best film Marvel has to offer, but I have to wonder if you and I even watched the same movie. In the version I saw, it took Danvers the entire film to finally break through her Kree conditioning to become better than everyone else.
> 
> And getting blasted by an exploding infinity stone-powered engine so badly that you require an infusion of alien blood to survive strikes me as being neither an easy way to gain superpowers, nor easy to duplicate. In contrast, Captain America and Hulk (to name two from Phase 1) both got their powers comparatively pretty easily. And Thor was born with his.




Hooking a power source to an infinity stone and causing it to discharge powers seems like it would be something that advanced technology could duplicate after it was seen to work. 

In most other instances, tampering with a stone like that -or even so much as touching a stone- kills pretty much everyone else. But she survives because  

To be fair that should also be true of radiation and a bunch of other things used in comic movies, but it seemed a bit forced in how it was presented in this case. 

As far as the Kree conditioning, my perception was that it was a somewhat lazy exploration of gender stereotypes:

•Emotions bad
•Women are emotional, so you suck
•repeated flashbacks and events to show how virtually every guy she had ever met was toxic
•...wait, your emotions are actually the thing that makes you better, and all the military training you had before was wrong

I found the movie to be a weird contrast to most everything else being put out at that point. In a lot of ways, the movie seemed intentionally designed to go against most of what had been established about the setting by other movies from the phases leading up to Endgame.


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## ART! (Jul 1, 2022)

Hussar said:


> The first five MCU movies were:
> 
> Iron Man (2008) - Great
> The Incredible Hulk (2008) - Not great
> ...



I'm not sure it's fair to include _The Incredible Hulk_, because (if I'm remembering and quickly checking things right) Marvel Studios didn't have the kind of control over it that they had over the other films on that list.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 1, 2022)

ART! said:


> I'm not sure it's fair to include _The Incredible Hulk_,



'Fair' to who? I think Disney will be fine!


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## wicked cool (Jul 1, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> ....well, when you put it like that, it's pretty easy!
> 
> _Hey, stupid Hollywood people! Just make movies, you know, BUT BETTER! Do the stuff that's good, and more ... and the stuff that sucks?
> 
> Stop doing that. _



if only we had that power. so many franchises would have been so much better with better plots/directors


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## billd91 (Jul 1, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> In most other instances, tampering with a stone like that -or even so much as touching a stone- kills pretty much everyone else. But she survives because
> 
> To be fair that should also be true of radiation and a bunch of other things used in comic movies, but it seemed a bit forced in how it was presented in this case.



Why would it seem forced in *this* case? Given the frequency of accidental supergenesis from events that should be deadly in comics, why would it seem forced at all? 



Argyle King said:


> As far as the Kree conditioning, my perception was that it was a somewhat lazy exploration of gender stereotypes:
> 
> •Emotions bad
> •Women are emotional, so you suck
> ...



Lazy? I know a number of women who watched it who felt a lot of it was timely and right on the nose. It doesn't have to be extremely deep and heavy to hit some really sore spots in 2019.


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## Thomas Shey (Jul 1, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Why would it seem forced in *this* case? Given the frequency of accidental supergenesis from events that should be deadly in comics, why would it seem forced at all?




Yeah, that seems very much an odd complaint.


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## Argyle King (Jul 1, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Why would it seem forced in *this* case? Given the frequency of accidental supergenesis from events that should be deadly in comics, why would it seem forced at all?
> 
> 
> Lazy? I know a number of women who watched it who felt a lot of it was timely and right on the nose. It doesn't have to be extremely deep and heavy to hit some really sore spots in 2019.




What can I say? Different experiences

You know people who felt it hit the nail on the head. I know people who felt it didn't (and that other movies -such as Black Panther's portrayal of female characters- did a better job of addressing those issues). Carol spends her whole movie fighting against stereotypes, just to find her power by embracing it. She then follows that up in her next appearance in the MCU by adopting an attitude which barely differs from the toxic a-hole guys that  her whole movie's character arc spent rebuking.

That's all also layered over what I said previously: her movie seemingly designed to go against the grain of everything else that was being established around that time.

As far as forced, it's hard to quantify feel. That's simply how it came across to me. It seemed like a lot of ideas concerning story and character development were rushed so as to hurry up and fit the character into the MCU before the fight with Thanos.

Edit: I think part of it might be what I've said already. The movie appears to violate what had already been established as how things usually work in-setting. That by itself isn't necessarily wrong. Other characters and movies have done so; however, there is typically at least some barebones explanation given to explain why. In that case there isn't. There could have been some connection made between Carol being blasted by the stone and how MCU Wanda received her powers via manipulation of a stone. There could have been any number of reasons but there weren't. In the end, what was the overall narrative gain for all the effort to do things in a way which went against what had been established by virtually everything else up to that point?


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## Hex08 (Jul 1, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Hooking a power source to an infinity stone and causing it to discharge powers seems like it would be something that advanced technology could duplicate after it was seen to work.
> 
> In most other instances, tampering with a stone like that -or even so much as touching a stone- kills pretty much everyone else. But she survives because
> 
> ...



Captain Marvel seems to get a lot of criticism, and some seems undeserved. Some of it I get, people like what they like and tastes vary. Some of it seemed to come from people with a political/social agenda even before seeing the movie. I personally enjoyed it but am willing to admit it could have been better.


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## Zaukrie (Jul 1, 2022)

I liked captain marvel. I just don't get how she didn't utterly obliterate  Thanos. She can fly thru spaceships no issue.


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## Tonguez (Jul 1, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> I'd suggest giving Eternals a try. I know I'm in a small group but I liked it enough to see it in theaters and again on D+. It has faults, there is no denying that, but there are some really fun parts and visuals to it as well. If you sat through Hulk, Thor: The Dark World, or Iron Man 2 then you've already seen the worst the MCU has to offer.
> 
> If nothing else, Eternals seems to set the stage for a lot of stuff to come.




Yeah Thor the Dork World is the only MCU movie I havent actually watched right through - it was just so excruciatingly boring, that I stopped watching and did something else (I remember Jane being taken to an Asgardian hospital and something about London?). 
On the other hand I watched Eternals and mostly enjoyed it. There are some good visuals and fun interactions and each of the characters are kinda interesting enough, but none of them get enough time to develop a feel for. Personally I wanted to know more about The Deviant leader (main ‘bad guy’) but in the end he’s a throwaway for the sake of the ‘_big thing_’.
I think much of the backlash went a bit overboard, The Eternals tried to break away from the Marvel formula and give us an epic melodrama rather than ‘action-comedy’ that MCU has become but it fails to delivery enough of that. however if taken on its own merits it isnt that bad.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 1, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Captain Marvel seems to get a lot of criticism, and some seems undeserved. Some of it I get, people like what they like and tastes vary. Some of it seemed to come from people with a political/social agenda even before seeing the movie. I personally enjoyed it but am willing to admit it could have been better.



I think the issues with Captain Marvel can be broken up into a few areas:

She is a very boring character. She's a blank slate when we first meet her, and pretty much remains so throughout. We actually learn very little about her. She has no real personality. To me the funniest thing about the whole "control your emotions" they keep discussing with her, is she barely has any to begin with.
There is no arc of challenge. The classic hero movie is to struggle, to evolve, and to overcome....its part of what we often like about superhero stories. In captain marvel that doesn't really happen, she is already super strong when we meet her, able to defeat her kidnappers all by herself. At no point is the enemy really capable of threatening her, and by the end she is all but invincible. Contrast this with Thor where he was stripped of a lot of his power so that mortal challenges were still a threat to him, and in his later movies he is dealing with world ending threats that are a real challenge to him.
The cat and Nick Fury is just completely dumb. How Nick Fury lost his eye has been built up as somekind of painful betrayal, something that turned Nick Fury into the cold untrusting man we know today. Instead...its played as a comedic gag with no character building story at all.


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## DeviousQuail (Jul 1, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah Thor the Dork World is the only MCU movie I havent actually watched right through - it was just so excruciatingly boring, that I stopped watching and did something else (I remember Jane being taken to an Asgardian hospital and something about London?).
> On the other hand I watched Eternals and mostly enjoyed it. There are some good visuals and fun interactions and each of the characters are kinda interesting enough, but none of them get enough time to develop a feel for. Personally I wanted to know more about The Deviant leader (main ‘bad guy’) but in the end he’s a throwaway for the sake of the ‘_big thing_’.
> I think much of the backlash went a bit overboard, The Eternals tried to break away from the Marvel formula and give us an epic melodrama rather than ‘action-comedy’ that MCU has become but it fails to delivery enough of that. however if taken on its own merits it isnt that bad.



The Dork World is a hilarious typo, please don't change it.

The MCU has put out such a regularly enjoyable product for so long that I don't even bother seeking out trailers for their movies. There is a baseline level of quality that is high enough that I know I'll enjoy going to the theater to see what they made. 

As for the Eternals, they certainly thinned the crowd a bit going forward and the backstory is in place. I wouldn't be surprised if their future offerings in team up movies or an Eternals 2 is better received. 



Spoiler: Deviant Leader Rant



The Deviant leader should have offered to help the good guys in the end since his goals in that moment strongly aligned with theirs. An uneasy alliance that breaks apart after he steals some of Ikarus' power. Then he can do his one on one with Thena while Ikarus is weakened enough for the others to hold him back giving Cersei time to do her thing. This gives the deviant a full arc and gives his showing up at the end some meaning. Pretty much this and not retelling Ajak's death/world ending bit to everyone individually solves the biggest issues with this film. The first group leaves London and learns what happened (sorta) to Ajak, then they meet Kingo, Gilgamesh, and Thena and tell them all at once. Finally, collect Phastos and head to Druig and discover him and Makkari already together. A budding romance that this movie didn't give enough time to but now it can because we've just cut out 20 minutes of repetition. Tell those three all at once. Move on to act 3. Rant over.


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## billd91 (Jul 1, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I think the issues with Captain Marvel can be broken up into a few areas:
> 
> 
> There is no arc of challenge. The classic hero movie is to struggle, to evolve, and to overcome....its part of what we often like about superhero stories. In captain marvel that doesn't really happen, she is already super strong when we meet her, able to defeat her kidnappers all by herself. At no point is the enemy really capable of threatening her, and by the end she is all but invincible. Contrast this with Thor where he was stripped of a lot of his power so that mortal challenges were still a threat to him, and in his later movies he is dealing with world ending threats that are a real challenge to him.



Why would the challenge or struggle just be something to overcome with powers? Her primary struggle is to figure out who she is, which is very appropriate for Carol Danvers given her history in the comics.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 1, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Why would the challenge or struggle just be something to overcome with powers? Her primary struggle is to figure out who she is, which is very appropriate for Carol Danvers given her history in the comics.



Except that she doesn't, we learn barely anything about her. She's a fighter pilot, and....she has a friend...and....yep that's about it. I knew more about Ms. Marvel in teh first 10 minutes of the tv than I learned about Carol in her entire movie.


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## Rune (Jul 2, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Except that she doesn't, we learn barely anything about her. She's a fighter pilot, and....she has a friend...and....yep that's about it. I knew more about Ms. Marvel in teh first 10 minutes of the tv than I learned about Carol in her entire movie.



Well, we _are_ shown that she has a pretty significant inferiority complex from being continually told to stay down when she is knocked down in her life and that it has fostered in her a stubborn streak that won’t do so (and frankly also a tendency to display a bit of anti-authoritarian push-back when people tell her what to do). That, and an ambition to over-achieve (likely also rooted in the inferiority complex). That all seems like a reasonably well-developed character to me. 

Don’t get me wrong: I think the film’s central premise that emotion = good; self-control of emotion = bad is nutso. But that’s not an indictment of the _character_. It’s just a thematic philosophy that stands in sharp contrast with everything I believe to be true in the world.


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## Argyle King (Jul 2, 2022)

I wanted to take a moment to say that I'm not specifically picking on Captain Marvel. 

I was asked about my comments toward that particular film, so I elaborated. It's certainly not horrible, but I do believe that aspects of it are an example of trending toward things which I don't particularly like in some of the newer films. There were aspects of the film which were enjoyable, but the bad was particularly highlighted by what I perceive to be a rush to shoehorn the character into other movies where she didn't really fit. 

I don't want to derail the thread further, so I'll just sum up my final thoughts on Captain Marvel by saying that the presentation of the character in the movie combined with some of the PR around the film didn't help the reception of the character.

"Hey, here's this group of characters we've spent years getting you to love as you've gone on this epic journey. But! Forget all of that because here's this brand new character who has kewler flashier powers which make their entire struggle* stupid... heck, she could beat Thanos all by herself, so she doesn't even need personality or story. You're going to love her, and -if you don't- well, that's because you're not a real fan (and you probably hate women -despite the fact that you liked all of the other female characters). Also, you think Nick Fury is cool? Well, he loses his eye to a cat just to prove that he sucks compared to this new character too. Sure, it's an alien cat with an extradimensional stomach, but we'll never bring that up again."

(*I disliked Legolas being in the Hobbit films for similar reasons. You have an entire story around the struggle of the dwarves, but then you have a bullet-time elf breezing through everything.)

I know that some of this is common in comic books, but that doesn't make it good/right. I liked that early MCU was a little more selective about which characters were involved and tried to pay at least some attention to how things connected together. 

I'll add that I'm not at all excited about the Skrulls being introduced more because I anticipate shape-shifting being over-used to explain how/why certain things fit together. "No, see, it wasn't actually that person. It just looked like that person."


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## wicked cool (Jul 2, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> I wanted to take a moment to say that I'm not specifically picking on Captain Marvel.
> 
> I was asked about my comments toward that particular film, so I elaborated. It's certainly not horrible, but I do believe that aspects of it are an example of trending toward things which I don't particularly like in some of the newer films. There were aspects of the film which were enjoyable, but the bad was particularly highlighted by what I perceive to be a rush to shoehorn the character into other movies where she didn't really fit.
> 
> ...



Your right. It has to be earned and they have to be flawed and relatable
11 in stranger things. A super hero but she’s going though things like peter Parker is
Every hero and most villains in the boys. They have flaws and weaknesses 
Captain marvel has 0 personality 

Watching part 2 of latest season of stranger things. Everything is better than Disney show
Can’t be money as Disney has more. It’s effort and storytelling


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## Blue (Jul 2, 2022)

@pukunui , Eternals panning is a bit much.  It's one of the weaker movies of Phase 4, but as a baseline all of the MCU movies are fun.  It does have one stand out character to me, Karun, and several that had a lot of potential to be (/will be?) good with more development.  They all needed more focus and screen time, but Phastos and Gilgamesh also had a lot of potential.


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## Argyle King (Jul 2, 2022)

I thing Eternals was a pretty good sci-fi film.

I can see potential for it to tie into the rest of the MCU in interesting ways, but that depends upon which way the writing goes with certain things.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 2, 2022)

Blue said:


> @pukunui , Eternals panning is a bit much.  It's one of the weaker movies of Phase 4, but as a baseline all of the MCU movies are fun.  It does have one stand out character to me, Karun, and several that had a lot of potential to be (/will be?) good with more development.  They all needed more focus and screen time, but Phastos and Gilgamesh also had a lot of potential.




Yeah, the biggest problem is we're just not given enough time with any one of them because, well, there just isn't enough time.


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## RuinousPowers (Jul 2, 2022)

There hasn't been a powerhouse actor like RDJr in any of the new stuff. All the heroes feel like the B list. I just don't care about them. They don't seem interesting, and neither do their villains. It certainly isn't helped by the Disney+ formula of "2.5 good hours stretched out to 6".


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## Older Beholder (Jul 2, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> There hasn't been a powerhouse actor like RDJr in any of the new stuff. All the heroes feel like the B list. I just don't care about them. They don't seem interesting, and neither do their villains. It certainly isn't helped by the Disney+ formula of "2.5 good hours stretched out to 6".




There are plenty of actors as good as Robert Downey Jr in phase 4
Black Widow alone has Scarlett Johansson, Rachel Weisz and Florence Pugh
Not to mention Oscar Isaac’s performance in MoonKnight being a tour de force.

As for B list heroes, I think they’re well beyond that. They started with their B-list after selling off A list characters Spider-Man and The X-Men.

This has been a big part of the appeal for me at least, new characters. I only really started going to see Marvel films with Guardians of the Galaxy, as it was something I hadn’t heard of before. Maybe this has helped hold off the superhero fatigue, although I get why people get burnt out on it.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 2, 2022)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Black Widow alone has Scarlett Johansson, Rachel Weisz and Florence Pugh



David Harbour is pretty good too. But the villains? They were so forgettable I can't even remember who played them.

But the big problem was that MCU had already done a much better espionage movie in The Winter Soldier (several Mission Impossible movies have done it better too). Which is the general problem: they have used up all the good ideas, and every movie has the same third act: there is a big fight with lots of explosions.


The Lizard Wizard said:


> Not to mention Oscar Isaac’s performance in MoonKnight being a tour de force.



Certainly one worthy of the Dick Van Dyke award.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 2, 2022)

MCU has maybe 5 or 6 good movies and most are average to above average. 

 There's no outright terrible ones. 

 They've become formulaic and predictable though. Several shows behind watch the first 3 and lost track. 

  Didn't mind eternals fine popcorn movie.


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## Mezuka (Jul 2, 2022)

I've lost the interest in paying full price for MCU. I wait for the movie to be 'free' on Disney+. 

I'm starting to question if D+ is of any value, on a year round basis. Probably better to wait and binge watch several series during the three worst winter months.


----------



## Staffan (Jul 2, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Hooking a power source to an infinity stone and causing it to discharge powers seems like it would be something that advanced technology could duplicate after it was seen to work.



I mean, Strucker was doing it to the Maximoffs as well, and it was implied that they went through a lot of candidates before they found any where it worked (and Wandavision implies it's because Wanda had her witchiness before, and the Mind Stone just boosted it).


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## Stalker0 (Jul 2, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> There's no outright terrible ones.



Thor 2 is a pretty darn bad movie


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## RuinousPowers (Jul 2, 2022)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> There are plenty of actors as good as Robert Downey Jr in phase 4
> Black Widow alone has Scarlett Johansson, Rachel Weisz and Florence Pugh
> Not to mention Oscar Isaac’s performance in MoonKnight being a tour de force.
> 
> ...



Black Widow was so mediocre I don't think anyone shined in it. And Oscar Isaac did a good job, but he is no Iron Man.


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## Thomas Shey (Jul 2, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> I've lost the interest in paying full price for MCU. I wait for the movie to be 'free' on Disney+.
> 
> I'm starting to question if D+ is of any value, on a year round basis. Probably better to wait and binge watch several series during the three worst winter months.




That's a question you can ask about pretty much _any_ streaming service.


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## Mezuka (Jul 2, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> That's a question you can ask about pretty much _any_ streaming service.



Except Netflix, so far we've had it continuously and I don't question getting rid of it, even for a while.


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## Hex08 (Jul 2, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> I've lost the interest in paying full price for MCU. I wait for the movie to be 'free' on Disney+.
> 
> I'm starting to question if D+ is of any value, on a year round basis. Probably better to wait and binge watch several series during the three worst winter months.



Honestly, I don't think it is. I only have it because it's included in my cellular plan. If I didn't have it I would just wait until the DVDs/Blu-ray were released for the shows I want and get them from my local library or buy them if I want them long term. Honestly, the more I think about it borrowing Blu-rays of the shows I want seems like a better deal than paying for all of the streaming services.

Hmmm... after reading online I see a bunch of stuff that says Disney won't release their shows on physical media but I also see them being sold, like here. Confusing


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## Mezuka (Jul 2, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Hmmm... after reading online I see a bunch of stuff that says Disney won't release their shows on physical media but I also see them being sold, like here. Confusing



Typical battle between marketing and sales depts. Sales ($$$) always wins regardless of what marketing previously said.


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## Lanefan (Jul 2, 2022)

My concern is how many key plot pieces I'll miss through not having Disney+ and thus being unable to watch the TV shows.

In the Phase I-II days when _Agents of SHIELD_* was tying some things together, it was available on standard cable TV.  Disney+, being a streaming service, won't work on my non-smart TV and watching shows on my desktop is a serious PITA...which conveniently also kinda rules out any online piracy options as well.

* - and to a lesser extent _Agent Carter_; which IMO got canned far too soon.

As for the recent movies:

I have a hunch _Eternals_ is going to stand the test of time better than many might expect.  I thought it was fine enough in itself, but I think its true value won't be known until all the seeds it planted have had a chance to sprout.

The two _Spiders-man_ - they'll do.  I suppose they're good but Spidey in general is probably my least favourite superhero of 'em all, so I won't rush out to watch them again.

_Black Widow_ was great!  _Shang-Chi_ I remember liking it at the time but can't remember a thing about it now, which isn't a good sign.   The latest Dr. Strange didn't thrill me, but it too might just need time and hindsight.

Really looking forward to the new Thor; I like all three of the earlier ones and if the Guardians show up as well, bonus!


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## Argyle King (Jul 3, 2022)

Staffan said:


> I mean, Strucker was doing it to the Maximoffs as well, and it was implied that they went through a lot of candidates before they found any where it worked (and Wandavision implies it's because Wanda had her witchiness before, and the Mind Stone just boosted it).




Yeah. I mentioned that in a later comment.


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## Blue (Jul 3, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Thor 2 is a pretty darn bad movie



When the wife and I rewatched all of MCU in in-universe chronological order, this was the one I skipped.  She watched it, but meh.


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## trappedslider (Jul 3, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> My concern is how many key plot pieces I'll miss through not having Disney+ and thus being unable to watch the TV shows.
> 
> In the Phase I-II days when _Agents of SHIELD_* was tying some things together, it was available on standard cable TV.  Disney+, being a streaming service, won't work on my non-smart TV and watching shows on my desktop is a serious PITA...which conveniently also kinda rules out any online piracy options as well.



I think as it goes on, you're going to miss out and be an outlier when it comes to not having a streaming service-capable device.


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## Blue (Jul 3, 2022)

I think I may be an outlier, but as much as I like the various Asgardian (and adjacent) characters, I liked the first Thor best.  Dark World really didn't work for me, absent some great Loki moments.  And Ragnarok was uneven plus as much as it's a heretical statement, I didn't enjoy the brand of humor quite as much.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> Disney+, being a streaming service, won't work on my non-smart TV and watching shows on my desktop is a serious PITA.



I have a Senile TV.  As in, it used to be a Smart TV but every service has moved on.  APIs have updated and it won't connect to things like Youtube anymore.  It's not getting updated for Hulu of Disney+ or ay of those.

My solution for was spending $30 on a Roku Express.  Tiny box, plugs into a normal HDMI port on the TV, just like your cable or DVD or game console.  Gets all the streaming.  Has it's own remote and interface.

If you do want streaming, there are other options to explore than a TV upgrade.


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## Thomas Shey (Jul 3, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Except Netflix, so far we've had it continuously and I don't question getting rid of it, even for a while.




On the other hand, the only time I'd have bothered (and it wasn't practical then) was several years ago.


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## Hussar (Jul 3, 2022)

Watched Doctor Strange Multiverse last night. Liked it. 

But my daughter whose last Marvel viewing was Endgame really was quite lost. Heck I was lost more than a few times. There were characters popping up that I had no idea who they were. 

I think the MCU is going to suffer the same problem as the comics for me. I gave up on comics in the 90’s because there were just so many titles and so much crossing between them. 

Imagine what that Illuminati scene looks like when you have no idea who the Xmen are. Whoo bald dude in a wheelchair. Nothing is explained. Heck they don’t even mention that he’s a telepath. But suddenly he’s in the mind of the Scarlett Witch looking at a weird door. 

Bwuh?

I think as time goes forward these shows are just going to get more and more self referential and become completely opaque to everyone who isn’t keeping up.


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## Blue (Jul 3, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> Black Widow was so mediocre I don't think anyone shined in it. And Oscar Isaac did a good job, but he is no Iron Man.



I think you will find yourself in a minority to think that Florence Pugh didn't do a great job, even if you sacreligiously didn't appreciate David Harbor.

But I agree with you on the second point, Oscar Isaac isn't Iron Man.  That's because he's Moon Knight.  _Where he did a damn fine job._


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2022)

Hussar said:


> Watched Doctor Strange Multiverse last night. Liked it.
> 
> But my daughter whose last Marvel viewing was Endgame really was quite lost. Heck I was lost more than a few times. There were characters popping up that I had no idea who they were.
> 
> ...



My problem is the opposite - in a connected world there should be people showing up when there's huge incursions or whatever.

Bald man that they don't mention being a telepath ... was in multiple AAA movies over the past few decades as that character.  And that's part of what they seem to be doing for the Multiverse - bringing in Marvel characters from non-Marvel Studio productions to show they are "not from here".


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 3, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Thor 2 is a pretty darn bad movie



This was my least favorite until Iron Man 3


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 3, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Thor 2 is a pretty darn bad movie




 Touche. Low side of average for me.


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 3, 2022)

Hussar said:


> Watched Doctor Strange Multiverse last night. Liked it.
> 
> But my daughter whose last Marvel viewing was Endgame really was quite lost. Heck I was lost more than a few times. There were characters popping up that I had no idea who they were.
> 
> ...



The fact that I had no clue who black bolt was or where he came from didn't bother me or my enjoyment at all


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 3, 2022)

Blue said:


> I have a Senile TV.  As in, it used to be a Smart TV but every service has moved on.  APIs have updated and it won't connect to things like Youtube anymore.  It's not getting updated for Hulu of Disney+ or ay of those.
> 
> My solution for was spending $30 on a Roku Express.  Tiny box, plugs into a normal HDMI port on the TV, just like your cable or DVD or game console.  Gets all the streaming.  Has it's own remote and interface.
> 
> If you do want streaming, there are other options to explore than a TV upgrade.




Not sure about our smart TV but it wasn't that smart even when new and everything worked. 

But we use Xbox and PS4 to run stuff it's just easier anyway.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 3, 2022)

Blue said:


> I think you will find yourself in a minority to think that Florence Pugh didn't do a great job, even if you sacreligiously didn't appreciate David Harbor.



Both where good, and it's probably fair to say they raised what would have been complete garbage to mediocre level.


Blue said:


> But I agree with you on the second point, Oscar Isaac isn't Iron Man.  That's because he's Moon Knight.  _Where he did a damn fine job._



And Moon Knight was a boring character in a boring TV show.

RDJ wasn't Iron Man. He was RDJ, and RDJ is always entertaining to watch.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 3, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> The fact that I had no clue who black bolt was or where he came from didn't bother me or my enjoyment at all



I do know, but I would rather they had made a movie with an actual plot rather than with novelty cameos.


----------



## Hussar (Jul 3, 2022)

Oh hey don’t get me wrong. I liked Multiverse of Madness. It was fun. 

It’s just that for me it’s very soon reaching the point where it’s getting to be more about cameos and Easter eggs than storytelling.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 3, 2022)

Hussar said:


> I think as time goes forward these shows are just going to get more and more self referential and become completely opaque to everyone who isn’t keeping up.




I'm not sure short of keeping them all encapsulated, that's avoidable.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 3, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Touche. Low side of average for me.




Honestly, the only thing that redeemed it was Loki and Thor's interactions.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 4, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> The fact that I had no clue who black bolt was or where he came from didn't bother me or my enjoyment at all



I have to wonder how Anson Mount reacted when he got the call to play Black Bolt again. The Inhumans TV show was universally panned and I imagine he never thought he would play that character again.


----------



## Hussar (Jul 4, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> I'm not sure short of keeping them all encapsulated, that's avoidable.



Well, it depends.  You can certainly have the various shows largely self contained with some shows linking to each other.  There's no particular reason, for example, for the X-men and Avengers to cross over.  In the comics they generally didn't.  Granted, you had a bajillion X-titles to track, so, there was that problem too.  

But something like Moon Knight?  No real reason for him to have anything to do with the Avengers or the multiverse.  He's off doing his own thing.  Same as, say, Punisher or Ghost Rider (which I'd love to see make a come back).  Even something like Fantastic Four is pretty easy to keep largely away - they spend so much time off world that most of the time they're just not there to deal with the stuff the Avengers deal with.

Heck, it's one of the reasons I really like Guardians of the Galaxy.  Sure, it's got the Thor tie in, but, that's about it.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 4, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I have to wonder how Anson Mount reacted when he got the call to play Black Bolt again. The Inhumans TV show was universally panned and I imagine he never thought he would play that character again.




On the other hand, he was one of the best things in the show (there were three or four actors that show let down seriously who did the best they could).


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 4, 2022)

Hussar said:


> Well, it depends.  You can certainly have the various shows largely self contained with some shows linking to each other.  There's no particular reason, for example, for the X-men and Avengers to cross over.  In the comics they generally didn't.  Granted, you had a bajillion X-titles to track, so, there was that problem too.
> 
> But something like Moon Knight?  No real reason for him to have anything to do with the Avengers or the multiverse.  He's off doing his own thing.  Same as, say, Punisher or Ghost Rider (which I'd love to see make a come back).  Even something like Fantastic Four is pretty easy to keep largely away - they spend so much time off world that most of the time they're just not there to deal with the stuff the Avengers deal with.
> 
> Heck, it's one of the reasons I really like Guardians of the Galaxy.  Sure, it's got the Thor tie in, but, that's about it.




I don't think I entirely buy it; if nothing else the big ticket groups are going to do things that should have ripple effects elsewhere, and it seems really artificial when, if they're sharing the same setting at all, its never acknowledge.


----------



## Hussar (Jul 4, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> I don't think I entirely buy it; if nothing else the big ticket groups are going to do things that should have ripple effects elsewhere, and it seems really artificial when, if they're sharing the same setting at all, its never acknowledge.



There is more to it though.  The whole Bruce Campbell cameo for example.  My daughter, who is too young to have ever seen Army of Darkness or whatnot, saw the scene and said that Strange is a complete dick.  This guy didn't do anything and here's Strange getting him to beat himself up.  Total dick move.

Now, obviously, you and I are in on the joke and it's funny.  But, for someone under the age of 20, there's pretty much zero chance they're going to get the reference.  Same goes with Patrick Stewart as Professor X.  Other than Logan, it was 2006 the last time Patrick Stewart played Professor X.  My daughter was born that year.  So, she had zero idea who these people were and why anyone would care about them.

But, I do get your point.  If the Blip happens, then it needs to have some affect on all the MCU titles.  Fair enough.  or the invasion of New York in Avengers.  But, realistically, if you have a superhero that's not in New York, then why would they really care about the invasion of New York?  It's not going to have much impact at all.  Might be something on the news in the background, but, that's about it.

I guess my point is, just how many cameos do you need in one movie?  And, as time goes on, it's only getting worse.  There's nothing wrong with having a few titles that are mostly stand alone and other titles that are more closely tied together.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 4, 2022)

Hussar said:


> There is more to it though.  The whole Bruce Campbell cameo for example.  My daughter, who is too young to have ever seen Army of Darkness or whatnot, saw the scene and said that Strange is a complete dick.  This guy didn't do anything and here's Strange getting him to beat himself up.  Total dick move.
> 
> Now, obviously, you and I are in on the joke and it's funny.  But, for someone under the age of 20, there's pretty much zero chance they're going to get the reference.  Same goes with Patrick Stewart as Professor X.  Other than Logan, it was 2006 the last time Patrick Stewart played Professor X.  My daughter was born that year.  So, she had zero idea who these people were and why anyone would care about them.
> 
> ...



Obviously the younger generation, whipper-snappers I believe is the correct term, need to bone up on older movies.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jul 4, 2022)

EDIT: TL;DR just read the last paragraph.

I've enjoyed pretty much all the Marvel stuff. There are some poor movies in the bunch. _Iron Man 2_ & _3_, and _Thor 2_ are completely forgettable. _Age of Ultron_ gets a fail because it set up to do one thing (paralleling Tony's daddy angst with Ultron's) and then... just didn't. But otherwise the MCU movies are fair to good.

But back to phase 4. All enjoyable, big tent, sfx extravaganzas. I agree with  @Lanefan that _Eternals_ is the most likely to give us the goods going forward. I say most likely because I never rule out executive meddling and the ability of producers to screw stuff up.  But, absent that, _Eternals_ has a good cast of characters and many cool plot threads. I liked that it was a family melodrama with super powers. That doesn't make it unique in the MCU. _Shang-chi _and _Black Widow_ are also family dramas. Hell, _Avengers _was a family drama; found family in its case. But _Eternals_ did family drama in that big, soap-opera way. I suspect that if I was familiar with Chinese soap opera I would see a lot of parallels/nods/shared tropes.

For my money _Multiverse of Madness_ is the weakest of Phase 4. Not bad. Big, dumb fun. Very Sam Raimi. And yes I have my issues with the villain of the movie. Please see the Dr. Strange 2 thread if you want to hear them. (No, I wouldn't bother either.) Put me in the club that assumes the multiverse is the MCU's way to introduce all the new characters. Hot take, I know.

As for 2 Spider Man movies... my cup runneth over. I love Spidey. Yes Spidey 3 requires both Peter and Strange to be utter bloody idiots to kick the plot into gear. <sigh> But the other universe characters were all so good that it goes some way to making up for that poor writing. Spidey 2 was great. It was very Spidey.

_Shang-Chi_ was a good all the way up to when they switched to the kaiju battle. It did not suit the rest of the movie. But otherwise it has good characters, good fight scenes, good plot. I like that our heroes get dragooned by the Sorcerer Supreme right at the end. They gotta run off and do...something. It was a real "no time to explain, get in the lama!" moment. I'm intrigued enough to find out what that something is when the next movie arrives. Also, who said Trevor was unnecessary? I loved Trevor and the double butted wombat or whatever it was.

_Black Widow_, for obvious reasons, is not going to give us much going forward. Not nothing, thank-you Florence Pugh as the new Widow. But it is a requiem for Natasha. And a good movie in it's own right.

Phase 4 is already shaping up to be much more focussed on giving us a shared ultra-villain (Kang according to the scuttlebutt but does anyone else think the Celestials would be a better choice?) than Phase 1 was. I'm sure most (all?) of us know Phase 1 was not originally intended to all come to a point. It was something that just... happened. It feels like Phase 4 is being given more guidance than that.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 4, 2022)

DrunkonDuty said:


> _Black Widow_, for obvious reasons, is not going to give us much going forward. Not nothing, thank-you Florence Pugh as the new Widow. But it is a requiem for Natasha. And a good movie in it's own right.



I can respect the notion that Black Widow is "ok" rather than garbage (though I think its garbage). But I really don't get how it could be considered "good".

In all honesty, what is good about the movie? I would argue our new black widow had a cool intro, and maybe you like David Harbor's character. Beyond that, the writing is terrible, the plot is nonexistent, the villain is dumb and an absolute waste, our main hero doesn't get a good sendoff (nor do we get any great insights into Nat or her backstory or anything), they gave Nat super human durability for some weird reason (seriously that fall early in the movie is 100% not survivable by anyone without superhuman toughness), its not particularly funny for a marvel movie, it didn't leave us any cool interconnected bits or even awesome cameos if that's something you go for..... seriously what about the movie makes it "good".


----------



## pukunui (Jul 4, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> seriously what about the movie makes it "good".



Florence Pugh


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 4, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Florence Pugh



She is good, but that doesn't make the movie good. In fact, it makes it worse by pulling the spotlight away from the supposed central character.

The parts of that movie that work are when it is being a "family of spies" sitcom. Which means the focus is on the funny characters, not the serious character.

The Winter Soldier, Avengers (Assemble) and even Iron Man 2 all make Natasha Romanoff much cooler.


----------



## Hussar (Jul 4, 2022)

I guess I just have far lower standards for my entertainment.  That's not terribly surprising to me actually.  I find I like a lot of stuff that gets written off by more serious fans.  

Means I get to like a lot more shows though.


----------



## Blue (Jul 4, 2022)

Hussar said:


> Well, it depends.  You can certainly have the various shows largely self contained with some shows linking to each other.  There's no particular reason, for example, for the X-men and Avengers to cross over.  In the comics they generally didn't.  Granted, you had a bajillion X-titles to track, so, there was that problem too.
> 
> But something like Moon Knight?  No real reason for him to have anything to do with the Avengers or the multiverse.  He's off doing his own thing.  Same as, say, Punisher or Ghost Rider (which I'd love to see make a come back).  Even something like Fantastic Four is pretty easy to keep largely away - they spend so much time off world that most of the time they're just not there to deal with the stuff the Avengers deal with.
> 
> Heck, it's one of the reasons I really like Guardians of the Galaxy.  Sure, it's got the Thor tie in, but, that's about it.



Any "world spanning peril" should attract attention of other heroes.  Reminds me of the Simulation RPG discussions recently - it only makes sense that if a giant form is rising from the ocean that others are going to get interested.  Regardless if the heroes dealing with it would normally interact with them.


----------



## Rabulias (Jul 4, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Hmmm... after reading online I see a bunch of stuff that says Disney won't release their shows on physical media but I also see them being sold, like here. Confusing



Notable that when there is physical media available, it's just DVD, not Bluray.  So I guess that is a compromise to still push folks to Disney+.


Hussar said:


> Other than Logan, it was 2006 the last time Patrick Stewart played Professor X.



He was in 2014's _X-Men: Days of Future Past_ that was pretty popular, but your point is taken.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 4, 2022)

Hussar said:


> I guess I just have far lower standards for my entertainment.  That's not terribly surprising to me actually.  I find I like a lot of stuff that gets written off by more serious fans.
> 
> Means I get to like a lot more shows though.




I'm much the same way, honestly.  Its a pretty high bar for me to consider a film actively bad; none of the Feige driven films or TV shows land in it  There's two I considered meh (Iron Man III and Thor II) and maybe one other (I'm really ambivalent about Eternals).  That's why I don't argue too much with other people about movies and shows in total, though I'll argue about individual elements, because my standards just aren't other people's.


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## Hex08 (Jul 4, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I can respect the notion that Black Widow is "ok" rather than garbage (though I think its garbage). But I really don't get how it could be considered "good".
> 
> In all honesty, what is good about the movie? I would argue our new black widow had a cool intro, and maybe you like David Harbor's character. Beyond that, the writing is terrible, the plot is nonexistent, the villain is dumb and an absolute waste, our main hero doesn't get a good sendoff (nor do we get any great insights into Nat or her backstory or anything), they gave Nat super human durability for some weird reason (seriously that fall early in the movie is 100% not survivable by anyone without superhuman toughness), its not particularly funny for a marvel movie, it didn't leave us any cool interconnected bits or even awesome cameos if that's something you go for..... seriously what about the movie makes it "good".



It's all subjective. I enjoyed the movie, other than Taskmaster, which was a wasted opportunity of a really cool character. I personally am glad we didn't get any interconnected bits because I wish Marvel would back off of that a bit. Why would there have been any cameos (awesome or not)? The movie took place when Nat and her allies were laying low and I'm not sure how a cameo would have added to the story. For the first time we saw Nat as a child and some of the relationships she developed before she became an Avenger and how they were dysfunctional and then got closure so I would call that insight into her character (great or not is subjective). Giving Nat superhuman durability seems like a serious bit of nitpicking, in both the comics and movies heroes, super or not, frequently take beatings that would kill or hospitalize the rest of us. You're right it not being particularly funny and thank goodness Marvel strayed from the formula. As for your gripe about the villain, if you are talking about Taskmaster I agree but she's not really the villain. Taskmaster is just a henchman/victim of Dreykov who is the villain of the movie and makes as much sense, if not more than, some of the really bad villains Marvel has had in some of their other movies. As for the plot, a quick Google search for "plot of the black widow" lays it out pretty succinctly.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 4, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Dreykov



WHO?


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 4, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> He was in 2014's _X-Men: Days of Future Past_ that was pretty popular, but your point is taken.



That was 8 years ago, and was a 12 cert. So, someone who saw it legitimately is now 20.

This is a big problem for Marvel now. There interconnectedness breaks down when a substantial part of the audience are simply too young to understand what the connections are.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 4, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> That was 8 years ago, and was a 12 cert. So, someone who saw it legitimately is now 20.
> 
> This is a big problem for Marvel now. There interconnectedness breaks down when a substantial part of the audience are simply too young to understand what the connections are.



I read a review of Multiverse of Madness on some comic site (Bleeding Cool?) where the writer saw it right when it first came out and when leaving the theater he overheard people being confused by Wanda having kids. The kids never appeared in the movies and the movie goers, apparently, didn't see the TV show so they were confused by the whole thing. I agree that the interconnectedness that was initially a strength of the franchise is going to start being a problem.


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 4, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> That was 8 years ago, and was a 12 cert. So, someone who saw it legitimately is now 20.
> 
> This is a big problem for Marvel now. There interconnectedness breaks down when a substantial part of the audience are simply too young to understand what the connections are.



Star Wars has this issue as well


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 4, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Giving Nat superhuman durability seems like a serious bit of nitpicking, in both the comics and movies heroes, super or not, frequently take beatings that would kill or hospitalize the rest of us.



The reason I call it out in this movie is because it is so hyped up. The scene when she is falling is VISCERAL, if you listen to the sound effects, I mean there's bone crunching sound in the background, its BRUTAL. They intentionally augment just how nasty the fall sounds.....and then she gets up with barely a scatch.


Its all a matter of degrees and what our collective culture allows. For example, the idea that a human can go through a wall in a martial arts movie and still get up has entered our "cultural delusion". In real life that person has more broken bones than you want to think about, but over enough movies we have just kind of accepted that its okay for a "crazy tough person" to do.

Therefore, if Nat had fallen like a story, maybe bonked her body once....ok that is still crazy from a IRL persepctive, but its still within the realm of plausibility for "heroic action". But that's not we got, it would be like the equivalent of Hawkeye getting punched and knocked through 3 brick walls but landing on a pillow and being "completely fine", the amount of punishment Nat takes in that one scene blows away any cinematic believability. And that's only one scene, there are several others that also completely blow past any measure of heroic toughness straight into the realm of supernatural durability.... its just that the first fall scene is the most egregious.


----------



## Eric V (Jul 4, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> The reason I call it out in this movie is because it is so hyped up. The scene when she is falling is VISCERAL, if you listen to the sound effects, I mean there's bone crunching sound in the background, its BRUTAL. They intentionally augment just how nasty the fall sounds.....and then she gets up with barely a scatch.



Yeah...I don't understand the writing decision to make the fall that egregious only for it to have no real effect on her.  If it isn't going to do anything, why not just write that Nat used her acrobatics to save herself?


----------



## Eric V (Jul 4, 2022)

Hussar said:


> Oh hey don’t get me wrong. I liked Multiverse of Madness. It was fun.
> 
> It’s just that for me it’s very soon reaching the point where it’s getting to be more about cameos and Easter eggs than storytelling.



It's already there for us in our house...to the point that you-know-who showed up in the mid-credits scene and (despite liking the character) we just didn't care.

The Illuminati showing up only to leave just as quickly was also underwhelming.  It's like the writers believed that the cameo itself is the point.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 4, 2022)

Eric V said:


> Yeah...I don't understand the writing decision to make the fall that egregious only for it to have no real effect on her.  If it isn't going to do anything, why not just write that Nat used her acrobatics to save herself?



Exactly. If nat had been somersaulting all the way down or doing some crazy parkour....ok fine, whether that's realistic or not is no longer debated because again our cimematic shared delusion tells us that crazy acrobatics can help you survive falls way higher than would be normal. Nat has already been established as being exceptionally graceful and acrobatic, so such a scene would seem very natural with her skills, as opposed to completely out of left field.


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## Gradine (Jul 4, 2022)

The first time I watched Black Widow I was watching it for the MCU-ness of it all, and it came up wanting (great acting, but otherwise meh). Natasha's already dead, none of this stuff is setting up anything particularly interesting, etc.

The second time I stopped caring about the interconnectedness and Marvel plot arc nonsense and took it for what it was: an exploration of who Natasha was and what family meant to her (an absolutely critical aspect of her character arc, especially in Endgame) and in that it absolutely excelled.

Say what you will about Cap and his earnest goodness, but absolutely the heart and soul of The Avengers was Natasha, it was always Natasha, and this really drove it home. Ultimately, Steve never threw his body on the grenade after all. Nat did.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jul 5, 2022)

@Stalker0 I reckon I can say now we aren't going to agree and that's fine. These things are subjective. But you did ask me a direct question so here's my answer.

What makes Black Widow good for me? Well @Hex08 and @Gradine have both said most of what I think is good about the movie. Basically it shows some real heart. Let's us get an insight into the character. Good cast.

As for the criticisms commonly levelled at it... yeah nah. 

She fell a few stories, hitting multiple things on the way down and walked away? So what. She's a super hero. Plenty of other characters have done the same in other movies without the excuse of being "super." John Maclean and Batman for two examples. No-ones complaining about them doing it. So why does Widow cop it? Also, that particular fall, she hits like a million things on the way down. Each one is slowing her fall. Good enough for me in a superhero universe. Yes, I get that the falling shot feels very visceral. Yes, I agree that there's a disconnect between the feeling it evokes and her walking away. I don't know how many sound designers you've met, but allow me to assure you they LOVE them some overdone audio. Me? I'd have insisted the sound designer re-do their work. Does this one scene ruin the movie? No.

Boring villain? Sure. 90% of Marvel villains are boring as hell.* I include Thanos on that list. But, as has been said on these forums in the past, the movies are about the heroes not the the villains. The story and thus the screen time focus on the heroes. We barely see the villains. Most of them get no time to develop. In _Black Widow_ we get to see the villain's evil plot and, given that evil plot's intensely personal nature to both our Widows, it works pretty well. We know why the characters are invested in taking it down. Is Dreykov a second rate Bond villain? Yes. But then so are most Bond villains. Just as we watch Bond movies for Bond, we watch MCU movies for the heroes.

Interconnectedness? I'm a Marvel comics nerd. I love me some Easter eggs. But they aren't necessary for making a good movie. Also, re. interconnectedness to the wider MCU... there's Natasha. You know, that character who's in like a squillion MCU movies? Plus Florence Pugh is going to be the new Widow going forward. That's plenty of interconnectedness.

Someone in the thread above said something like Natasha doesn't even get a good send off. Ummmmmm. It's a prequel. She gets her send off in _Endgame_. Oops, soz, spoilers.

_Phew_. Well, that was longer than I planned to go on.

*This puts the MCU ahead of the DCU where 90% of everyone is boring as hell.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Star Wars has this issue as well




Every far reaching franchise does.  You see it in Star Trek too.


----------



## RuinousPowers (Jul 5, 2022)

Blue said:


> I think you will find yourself in a minority to think that Florence Pugh didn't do a great job, even if you sacreligiously didn't appreciate David Harbor.
> 
> But I agree with you on the second point, Oscar Isaac isn't Iron Man.  That's because he's Moon Knight.  _Where he did a damn fine job._



Like I said, I was not impressed by the acting in Black Widow, and I think it was very mediocre. A poor final send-off to the titular character.

Oscar Isaac had a good performance in an otherwise forgettable show. 

You may think this stuff is the bee's knees, but I'm gonna drop Disney+; I just don't look forward to watching any of these shows.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 5, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> The reason I call it out in this movie is because it is so hyped up. The scene when she is falling is VISCERAL, if you listen to the sound effects, I mean there's bone crunching sound in the background, its BRUTAL. They intentionally augment just how nasty the fall sounds.....and then she gets up with barely a scatch.
> 
> 
> Its all a matter of degrees and what our collective culture allows. For example, the idea that a human can go through a wall in a martial arts movie and still get up has entered our "cultural delusion". In real life that person has more broken bones than you want to think about, but over enough movies we have just kind of accepted that its okay for a "crazy tough person" to do.
> ...



Yeah, and I still stand by my original statement that it's no different than what we see in tons of other comics and movies. If you dislike every other movie for the same reason then fair enough but otherwise, in my opinion, it's just piling on criticisms for a movie you didn't like anyways. And that's fair enough, we all like what we like and don't what we don't but be even handed in your criticism.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 5, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Every far reaching franchise does.  You see it in Star Trek too.



This is true. Most long running series can be hard to pick up if you come in in the middle. However, Marvel has relied more heavily than most on cameos as it's USP, and Multiverse of Madness in particular depends on knowing characters' abilities from other sources in order to follow what is going on.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 5, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> You may think this stuff is the bee's knees, but I'm gonna drop Disney+; I just don't look forward to watching any of these shows.



_Only Murders in the Building _is awesome!


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> _Only Murders in the Building _is awesome!




That is on Hulu in the US. And yes, it is awesome. Just watched the first two episodes of season 2 and it is hard to wait for episode 3 this week.

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On the thread topic, just pointing out that Far From Home is officially the final film of Phase 3 and is not part of Phase 4. And if we are comparing Phase 4 to what it should be, Phase 1 and maybe 2, it is doing just fine and is just as disconnected as those initial MCU films were. Things will pick up once we get to the next full appearance of Kang in Ant-man 3. As for the MCU films in general, I find even the most average of them to be more watchable than any of the DCEU movies, especially for rewatching. I think Black Adam will be the first DCEU movie I will enjoy as much and want to see more than once.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 5, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That is on Hulu in the US.



Oh aye. Disney+ UK has a lot of good stuff that isn't Star Wars or Marvel.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Oh aye. Disney+ UK has a lot of good stuff that isn't Star Wars or Marvel.




Isn't that the part of D+ called Star, for non-US customers? Is it a fully separate service or an included part of D+?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 5, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Isn't that the part of D+ called Star, for non-US customers? Is it a fully separate service or and an included part of D+?



It's included.


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## Argyle King (Jul 5, 2022)

I know I'm in the minority in saying this, but I didn't particularly like the Loki D+ show.

It's not so much that the show itself was bad exactly. It's more that I don't particularly like it in the context of how it alters the rest of the MCU.

I do have some bias though. I watched Umbrella Academy first, so it was hard to not see the Loki show as a lesser version of that. 

On the other hand, I highly enjoyed No Way Home.


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## Hussar (Jul 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's included.



Yeah, we have the same D+ in Japan too.  With Star included.  Lots of Korean dramas here, but, lots of other stuff too.


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## Mannahnin (Jul 5, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> I know I'm in the minority in saying this, but I didn't particularly like the Loki D+ show.
> 
> It's not so much that the show itself was bad exactly. It's more that I don't particularly like it in the context of how it alters the rest of the MCU.
> 
> ...



No Way Home was amazing (although yes, the inciting incident was kind of dumb).

I agree that Loki does contextually mess with the rest of the MCU more than I'd like.  I enjoyed the story and performances though, and the visual design and soundtrack were incredible.


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## Thomas Shey (Jul 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> This is true. Most long running series can be hard to pick up if you come in in the middle. However, Marvel has relied more heavily than most on cameos as it's USP, and Multiverse of Madness in particular depends on knowing characters' abilities from other sources in order to follow what is going on.




Eh.  I think they do a competent job of tell-you-as-it-goes, as long as you're familiar enough with genre tropes to be able to accept things as you get to them.  I've watched movies before where I had to pick up understanding of characters' superhuman abilities on-the-fly and been able to keep up, because there's rarely anything new under the Sun.  None of the Illuminati had unprecedented and heavily nuanced powers; Blackbolt is the most unusual of the set probably, and they show you his gig in the flashback.


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## Nikosandros (Jul 5, 2022)

Mannahnin said:


> No Way Home was amazing (although yes, the inciting incident was kind of dumb).




Agreed, epecially on the second count.


Mannahnin said:


> I agree that Loki does contextually mess with the rest of the MCU more than I'd like.  I enjoyed the story and performances though, and the visual design and soundtrack were incredible.



I must confess that I didn't care for Loki. I like the character, I like the actors (especially Hiddleston), I liked the setting and the visuals... but the story didn't do anything for me. Loki himself seemed almost a bystander and the last episode was (IMHO) an exceedingly long exposition.


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## Richards (Jul 5, 2022)

Agreed.  For a show supposedly starring Loki, the Norse God of Trickery, he did very little but follow others around - it was almost like he was a guest star in his own series.  And he wasn't much of a trickster, either.

Johnathan


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