# Gandalf



## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

There is a standing tradition of building the characters from the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in D&D. And I probably dont need to describe him that much ;p

Gandalf is supposed to be the primary inspiration for the Invoker class - but it looks like to get the feel for him.. an Avenger/Invoker might better do the trick (I dont picture him hiding chain under those robes - but Armor of Faith).... 
In the past I have argued Gandalf seemed to bring in some Paladin-hood but that was as much the bonded mount feature (which Paladins no longer push and the dabbling of Leader healer elements certainly which are emphasized in the character and the heavy knowledge feature could be bard like (the creation of his world is described as being a song so this emphasis is not bad)?

So maybe he isnt quite so nailed down?

Does anybody not think Deva is a solid racial archetype? for this reincarnating Maiar hero 

Wonder what power level to build him at say ---
Paragon (Gandalf the Grey) / Epic (Gandalf the White)

The threads I have seen were earlier in D&D 4e's development cycle and really didnt seem to capture him that well.

for example
D&D 4e challenge: stat out the Fellowship of the Ring! - RPGnet Forums
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/235882-multiclassing-gandalf.html

Nyeh...nothing even worth mining.


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## Klaus (Sep 5, 2009)

I'd say:

- Race: Deva
- Class: Invoker
- Armor: Cloth
- Weapon: Longsword
- Implement: Staff


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

So where exactly did your pure invoker pick up longsword proficiency.. 
and I wonder what his strength is with it in battle ;p

Gandalf the Grey, level 11
Deva, Avenger|Invoker, Flame of Hope
Hybrid Avenger: Hybrid Avenger Reflex
Covenant Manifestation: Manifestation of Preservation
Hybrid Invoker: Hybrid Invoker Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Armor of Faith
Background: Elfharrow (Elfharrow Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 14, Dex 12, Int 18, Wis 21, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 13.


AC: 25 Fort: 22 Reflex: 22 Will: 23
HP: 76 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Perception +15, Nature +16, Insight +15, Arcana +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +7, Heal +10, History +11, Intimidate +7, Religion +11, Stealth +8, Streetwise +7, Thievery +6, Athletics +6

FEATS
Learned Spellcaster: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Learned Spellcaster
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 4: Battle Intuition
Level 6: Hybrid Talent
Level 8: Heavenly Heritage
Level 10: Mark of Handling
Level 11: Great Fortitude

POWERS
Hybrid Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Pursuit
Hybrid Invoker at-will 1: Divine Bolts
Hybrid encounter 1: Whirlwind Charge
Hybrid daily 1: Purging Flame
Hybrid utility 2: Loyal Sanction
Hybrid encounter 3: Symbol of the Broken Sword
Hybrid daily 5: Dance of Flame
Hybrid utility 6: Shield of Light
Hybrid encounter 7: Avenging Winds
Hybrid daily 9: Winds of Woe
Hybrid utility 10: Divine Renewal

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Holy Symbol, Ring of Fireblazing (paragon tier), Battle Staff +2, Elven Cloak +2, Enduring Spirit Vestments Githweave Armor +3, Dread Bastard sword +3, Rare Herbs (Nature), Spellbook, , Celestial Charger
RITUALS
Hand of Fate, Animal Messenger, Gentle Repose, Explorer's Fire, Call Wilderness Guide, Speak with Nature, Magic Circle, Animal Friendship, Sending, Wizard's Sight, Drawmij's Instant Summons


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## Dr_Sage (Sep 5, 2009)

Well,

in my oppinion when we make a book/movie based build we must observe the context.

In the LotR movies Gandalf and other spell casters spells were more like rituals casters tham actual casters.Considering this (believe or not) its a low magic campaign (at least visually).

I see 2 paths to choose from:

1) Like suggested by Klaus he could be a Invoker or Wizard, with high inteligence, wisdom and charisma.
The longsword would be just a speciall effect since - lets face it - invokers dont need swords to fight orcs.
You would keep the roleplay of gandalf and his flavor, but not combat style. A couple of feats like Weapon Profciency and melee training would sufice.

2) If you want to have a closer to his fighting style approach, with powers that actually are chanelled "via" sword, you would have to either multiclass or create a class for him.
I think mixing Avenger or Spellsword would solve the problem, but in my oppinion Gandalf looks and/or attitude would not be the same.


Lets face it: Gandalf from movies dont use Magic Missiles or Divine Bolts becuse Tolkien came before DnD, not the other way around.

Just 2 cents.


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Dr_Sage said:


> Lets face it: Gandalf from movies dont use Magic Missiles or Divine Bolts becuse Tolkien came before DnD, not the other way around.



Gandalf killed Orcs with lightening in the hobbit so I have no problems with it. And he burn a balrog one on one and upclose in the LOTR..He weilded a magic sword. 
Hybrid Avenger/Invoker gives me a melee weapon at will and lightning flashes from his invoker... its pretty win/win.

A low fantasy interpretation of Gandalf?  Nyeh.


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## Dr_Sage (Sep 5, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Gandalf killed Orcs with lightening in the hobbit so I have no problems with it. And he burn a balrog one on one and upclose in the LOTR..He weilded a magic sword.
> Hybrid Avenger/Invoker gives me a melee weapon at will and lightning flashes from his invoker... its pretty win/win.
> 
> A low fantasy interpretation of Gandalf? Nyeh.





You have to ask yourself, why he havent used lightining bolts on the hundreds of orc/goblins/uruks he found later? 

I am happy to imagine that Tolkien had reconsidered it. Dont expect someone who is able to toss bolts of lightining at will to use a sword... again just my oppinion.


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Dr_Sage said:


> You have to ask yourself, why he havent used lightining bolts on the hundreds of orc/goblins/uruks he found later?
> 
> I am happy to imagine that Tolkien had reconsidered it. Dont expect someone who is able to toss bolts of lightining at will to use a sword... again just my oppinion.




The explanation in the books was... that he didnt want the Big bad to pin point and home in on him. (awakening ring... awakening evil and all that). The literary reason is so the other characters could shine a little more.

Avenger ultimately precise sword blows are tolerable right alongside the more eratic bolts.

Gandalfs I will take out the Balrog everyone else escape could be an avenger isolation in action ;-).


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## Klaus (Sep 5, 2009)

Here's my take at Gandalf Grayhame, Stormcrow:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Grayhame, level 11
Deva, Invoker, Flame of Hope <--- Doesn't mean to be great, but to inspire greatness
Divine Covenant: Covenant of Preservation
Background: Birth - Blessed (+2 to Insight)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 15, Dex 11, Int 17, Wis 22, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 11.


AC: 21 Fort: 18 Reflex: 19 Will: 23
HP: 65 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 16

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +15, History +15, Arcana +13, Insight +18

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +11, Endurance +9, Heal +11, Intimidate +6, Nature +11, Perception +11, Stealth +5, Streetwise +6, Thievery +5, Athletics +5

FEATS
Invoker: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Auspicious Lineage
Level 2: Battle Intuition <--- Wisdom for initiative
Level 4: Scourge of the Fallen <--- Racial power adds to atk and damage vs. immortals
Level 6: Melee Training (Wisdom)
Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 10: Heavenly Heritage <--- gains temporary hp from fire damage (Balrog fight!)
Level 11: Remembered Mother Tongue <--- can speak with anything that has a language

POWERS
Invoker at-will 1: Vanguard's Lightning
Invoker at-will 1: Sun Strike <--- Protecting the retreat of Faramir
Invoker encounter 1: Astral Terror <---- BILLLLBO BAGGINNNNSSS!
Invoker daily 1: Purging Flame <---- against the Witch King on Minas Tirith
Invoker utility 2: Perfect Recall
Invoker encounter 3: Symbol of the Broken Sword <--- useful vs. Balrog
Invoker daily 5: Searing Orb
Invoker utility 6: Theologian's Shield
Invoker encounter 7: Trumpets of Celestia <--- The Two Towers, during the Charge of the Rohirim
Invoker daily 9: Twist of Fate
Invoker utility 10: Insightful Comment

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Indomitable Resolve Vestments Githweave Armor +3, Ravenclaw Warblade Bastard sword +2 (if drop non-minion to 0hp, can spend healing surge), Moonsilver Staff +3, Ring of Invigoration (paragon tier -- when at 0hp, spend healing surge)
RITUALS
Hand of Fate, Animal Messenger, Gentle Repose, Explorer's Fire, Call Wilderness Guide, Speak with Nature, Magic Circle, Animal Friendship, Sending, Wizard's Sight, Drawmij's Instant Summons
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

All in all, this version has incredible resiliency (representing the divine nature of Gandalf), and is good in fights against foes like the Ringwraiths, the Balrog and Saruman. The Paragon Path fits Gandalf's style, and the rituals and powers have a more subtle nature.


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Oh by the way in real life due in part due to modern healing practices only 20 percent of lightning hits are fatal... ummm dont ask me where I got that tid bit. When I heard it though it got me thinking that  wizards could be using lightning without totally over shadowing everyone else... damn that proves I am a geek.


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## Klaus (Sep 5, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> The explanation in the books was... that he didnt want the Big bad to pin point and home in on him. (awakening ring... awakening evil and all that). The literary reason is so the other characters could shine a little more.
> 
> Avenger ultimately precise sword blows are tolerable right alongside the more eratic bolts.
> 
> Gandalfs I will take out the Balrog everyone else escape could be an avenger isolation in action ;-).



That's why I gave Gandalf a sword that has a reason to be used. As Glamdring (Foe Hammer), it keeps the wielder fighting against wave upon wave of enemies. And its healing properties are a reason for Gandalf to wield it.


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

I thought of the remembered mother toungue ... thought surging flame to help with the balrogs...  but I like the heavenly heritage even better.

His ring for all he uses it is probably gives him fire resistance... it was one of the Elf rings. Do Balrog attacks do necrotic and fire?


I decided by picking Elven and Dwarven for his languages... we get along ways and I dont think its as important  him racing across the battle field on Shadowfax. Although that could depend somewhat his talking with Giant Eagles and things could come up.... and he could still ride that celestial charger without using the mount abilities.


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Melee training is another way to get the sword useable. but not having a blade based at-will?... is pretty wishy washy
considering... he went a long time between doing visibly magic stuff... I would feel more like gandalf with avengery
strikes and he made use of that horse to charge around the battle field a lot.


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Glamdring Foe hammer as a bastard sword is also a little more Avenger friendly I think I will bring that over.. hmmm with good critical chances... a Dread Weapon enchantment might be interesting. Ravenclaw Warblade -??,
Glamdring all by itself was intimidating to the lesser foes he faught.


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## Turtlejay (Sep 5, 2009)

No Swordmage love?  Swordmage with Aegis of Shielding?  Of course, he would lose some of his benefit from wielding a staff in the other hand, but it is freaking *Gandalf*.  All of his ability scores are 18's, he has an Artifact ring of power, and is ultimately the most bitchin dude around.

When I get home to my character builder maybe I'll give it a shot.  Swordmage or Swordmage/Wizard seem most likely to me.

Jay


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## GMforPowergamers (Sep 5, 2009)

here is an idea (needs work though...)

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Gandalf the Grey, level 16
Deva, Invoker|Swordmage, Wizard of the Spiral Tower
Covenant Manifestation: Manifestation of Wrath
Hybrid Invoker: Hybrid Invoker Fortitude
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Shielding
Hybrid Talent: Swordmage Warding
Corellon's Implement: Orb

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 11.


AC: 30 Fort: 25 Reflex: 28 Will: 29
HP: 106 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 26

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +21, Insight +19, Intimidate +14, Arcana +19

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +14, Endurance +10, Heal +14, History +16, Nature +14, Perception +14, Stealth +8, Streetwise +9, Thievery +8, Athletics +7

FEATS
Learned Spellcaster: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Battle Intuition
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Intelligent Blademaster
Level 6: Focused Expertise (Longsword)
Level 8: Implement Expertise (staff)
Level 10: Learned Spellcaster
Level 11: Remembered Mother Tongue
Level 12: Greater Aegis of Shielding
Level 14: Danger Sense
Level 16: Paragon Defenses

POWERS
Hybrid Invoker at-will 1: Astral Wind
Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Luring Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Lightning's Revelation
Hybrid daily 1: Binding Invocation of Chains
Hybrid utility 2: Anticipate Maneuver
Hybrid encounter 3: Incendiary Sword
Hybrid daily 5: Enervating Slash
Hybrid utility 6: Unicorn's Touch
Hybrid encounter 7: Rain of Blood
Hybrid daily 9: Troll Rampage
Hybrid utility 10: Snap Out of It
Hybrid encounter 13: Silverlight Strike (replaces Lightning's Revelation)
Hybrid daily 15: Three Beacons of Twilight (replaces Binding Invocation of Chains)
Hybrid utility 16: Elemental Countermeasures

ITEMS
Feyweave Armor of Aegis Expansion +4, Staff of Light +3, Longsword of Summer +3, Brooch of Vitality +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Turtlejay said:


> No Swordmage love?  Swordmage with Aegis of Shielding?  Of course, he would lose some of his benefit from wielding a staff in the other hand, but it is freaking *Gandalf*.  All of his ability scores are 18's, he has an Artifact ring of power, and is ultimately the most bitchin dude around.
> 
> When I get home to my character builder maybe I'll give it a shot.  Swordmage or Swordmage/Wizard seem most likely to me.
> 
> Jay




heh.... (all 18's - that doesnt seem at all necessary) Scrawny bow legged old codger types dont need 18 strength or Con...  their wisdom an intellect is there power... there minds is where its at. Knowledge is power.

I did avenger both to get some Armor class sneaked in... but I made sure I got him some mounted combat.(changed it to mark of handling cause I could)

NOTE I am not using expertise feats out of protest ... they just arent flavorful and too generic.


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Put his Celestial Charger on his Equipment list 

[SIZE=-2][SIZE=-1]*The Mearas - The Great Horses of Rohan*[/SIZE][/SIZE]




[SIZE=-2][SIZE=-1]The most famous is *Shadowfax*, the leader of the Mearas during the Third Age (and the War of the Ring). Mearas are traditionally only able to be ridden by the kings of Rohan, but Shadowfax was given to Gandalf by Théoden, who managed to tame the unruly animal for himself. [/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=-2][SIZE=-1]The Mearas were brought to northern Middle-earth by the god Oromë, and one of their kind, a white horse named Felaróf, was later tamed by Eorl. [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2][SIZE=-1]Felaróf was found by Eorl’s father, who met his death when the horse threw him. Eorl managed to capture the horse and demanded its obedience as payment for his father’s death. Felaróf, who was capable of understanding human speech, agreed to the bargain. He and his descendants were from then on loyal to the kings of Rohan.

the above quote from 
http://www.geocities.com/licia_north/horses.html
(sounds good anyway)

[/SIZE][/SIZE]


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Like anybody needs it..inspirational research material.
Gandalf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> here is an idea (needs work though...)
> 
> ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
> Gandalf the Grey, level 16
> ...




I rather like Shield Mage element... and Orbs are big in the LOTR universe so there is some interesting bits in there...


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

hmmm we might need some Cleric fan to build him Gandalf was certainly very Leaderly at some point in his life-times... perhaps when his name was “Olorin” 

"in later days [Olorin] was the friend of all the Children of Illuvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness"

-page 19 of the Silmarillion.


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## Klaus (Sep 5, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Melee training is another way to get the sword useable. but not having a blade based at-will?... is pretty wishy washy
> considering... he went a long time between doing visibly magic stuff... I would feel more like gandalf with avengery
> strikes and he made use of that horse to charge around the battle field a lot.



It's called Basic Attack. 

Seriously, the way I statted him up, Gandalf's Basic Attack is +16 to hit (against +14 of his staff-based powers), has a range of melee (unlike his other powers) and if he drops a foe to 0 hp he gets to spend a healing surge. That's quite some punch packed into his basic attack.

As for his ring, the "flame" of the ring is as much the flame of life as it is actual fire.


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Klaus said:


> It's called Basic Attack.
> 
> Seriously, the way I statted him up, Gandalf's Basic Attack is +16 to hit (against +14 of his staff-based powers), has a range of melee (unlike his other powers) and if he drops a foe to 0 hp he gets to spend a healing surge. That's quite some punch packed into his basic attack.




Ah I see the use it again and again charging about ... does make the MBA nice style (kind of pictured him doing that). Not sure where you got your Ravenclaw Warblade Enchantment is it new? (battlefields might have lots of minions though so it could be eratic --). 

Foe hammer kind of makes me think something to do some nice effect on a critical hit. Adamantine Weapon -- Bloodiron Weapon. or maybe a weapon with a fear attack would be cool... or which boosted the users Armor class against bloodied foes and minions ;-)

I do like the one big initial charge (whirlwind charge) and a noticeably better improved armor class (via a more appropriate source -- though I just noticed invoker defense could be nice in that arena too)--- the  better hit points that an avenger hybrid gets... make the Avenger appropriate and appealing.


Having mark of handling is cool to represent (not just anyone could have tamed Shadowfax)... but having a series of charges that will work more consistantly (picturing him flitting about the battle is good) makes melee training a better option than the mounted combat. (benefits the opportunity attacks too) even with an avenger hybrid basis. I took Great Fortitude as well but I might trade that in even though it gave him balanced defenses.(so I can keep my Mark of Hanlding ).That could be the practicality trade I would prefer.. you convinced me on melee training.

Hmmm my Avenger hybrid gets a channel divinity of my choice.... hmmmm.

Gandalf lived amongst the elves as an elf (a life time or too ago)--- his name "gandalf" even means magic-elf or something similar so I am sticking with a Elf/Eladrin regional background for flavor.. though I considered the always practical Auspicious Birth.

Languages without pulling any Deva super language trick (Elven, Goblin, Dwarf)


> Gandalf Storm Crow, level 11
> Deva, Avenger|Invoker, Flame of Hope
> Hybrid Avenger: Hybrid Avenger Reflex
> Covenant Manifestation: Manifestation of Wrath
> ...


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## Turtlejay (Sep 5, 2009)

My somewhat unconventional approach:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Gandalf, level 6
Deva, Bard|Swordmage
Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Will
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Shielding
Hybrid Talent: Bardic Virtue
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Valor
Background: Arcane Sentinel (+2 to Arcana)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 19, Wis 14, Cha 17.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 16.


AC: 18 Fort: 14 Reflex: 17 Will: 18
HP: 50 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Insight +10, Dungeoneering +10, History +14, Arcana +14, Religion +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Endurance +5, Heal +6, Intimidate +7, Nature +6, Perception +6, Stealth +4, Streetwise +7, Thievery +4, Athletics +3

FEATS
Divine Secretkeeper: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Divine Secretkeeper
Level 2: Focused Expertise (Longsword)
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Intelligent Blademaster

POWERS
Hybrid Bard at-will 1: Guiding Strike
Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Luring Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Inspiring Refrain
Hybrid daily 1: Verse of Triumph
Hybrid utility 2: Arcane Mutterings
Hybrid encounter 3: Sloth Strike
Hybrid daily 5: Enervating Slash
Hybrid utility 6: Glimpse the Future

ITEMS
Magic Staff +2, Flesh Seeker Longsword +2, Bloodthread Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +1, Ring of Fearlessness (epic tier)
RITUALS
Steed Summons, Find the Path, Discern Lies, Cure Disease, Animal Friendship, Knock, Battlefield Elocution, Seek Rumor, Pyrotechnics, Endure Elements, Make Whole, Fastidiousness, Arcane Mark
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

I am tempted to go just straigh bard.  Garthanos mentioned maybe making him up as a Cleric, because he was unarguably a Leader, and I looked at the leader class list. . .Arcane leaders are Bard and Artificer...

Stip away any goofy singing and Gandalf becomes a Loremaster, a story teller and motivator.  Bards have weapon powers, and can boost the morale of allies.  Gandalf was a Bard.

Also, I shied away from mounted combat and it's ilk, because it seemed to me that Shadowfax was a full partner in their relationship, not just a brainless mount.  Maybe in gamist terms Gandalf would need the feat to be able to use advanced features, but I see it more like, Shadowfax only lets those he chooses to ride him.  Anyone that rides him gains those features, regardless of feat taken.

I had to give him an Epic ring, too.  A quick glance at the rings available kind of sold me on the one I chose.  And Glamdring. . .any better ideas there?  It was Precious, too...

Jay


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Nothing goofy about singing (The divine creation story for Middle Earth was a musical).

The bard is solid thinking... I am wierdly wondering what the swordmage is bringing in for this build... a better int based weapon at-will? Oh yeah ... Shielding smacks palm on forehead... that is nice protecting his allies and a protecting personality.

Battlefield tactics.
But I do see him dashing about the battle field on his charger less so standing front lines with the Aragorns / Borromirs and Glimlis... I do see him isolating and tangling with a single foeman (like balrog).


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Turtlejay said:


> My somewhat unconventional approach:
> 
> ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
> Gandalf, level 6
> ...




Not sure how successful it is but cheers for taking on the challenge of level 6.


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

Turtlejay said:


> And Glamdring. . .any better ideas there?  It was Precious, too...
> 
> Jay




The weapon seems to have no mention of what it was capable aside from striking fear into the hearts of orcs that faced it (and giving off light)... so a powerful dangerous weapon is just about all we have to go on... describe it as shining with a pale light with its name in runes on it.... 
Give its bearer an intimidation bonus +3 against those of orcish/goblin heritage... and I am thinking any subtle effect that is unlikely to take center stage, but makes its a good killer.  Well I guess sun blade isnt bad. (Glamdring glowed stronger after defeating a major enemy so the Ravenclaw Warblade?empassioning effect  - is not implausible)

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Glamdring


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## abyssaldeath (Sep 5, 2009)

I beleive Glamdring and Sting were the original inspiration of the Bane weapons.


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## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2009)

abyssaldeath said:


> I beleive Glamdring and Sting were the original inspiration of the Bane weapons.




Bonus damage against Ork/Goblinoids?

or radiant damage with creatures vulnerable to it.... tolkeins gobbies were very nocturnal


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## Turtlejay (Sep 6, 2009)

I looked through the CB for appropriate weapons, but 4e has kind of gone away from bonuses vs 1 type of enemy it seems.  Maybe homebrew something, or add a property to radiant weapons that it glows when orc-kind are present.

I built a straight bard for him, and I don't like it.  I'm not sure I like the Bard/Swordmage either.  Not 100%.  I like parts of it.  Still musing over the available options.

Jay


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## Klaus (Sep 6, 2009)

Turtlejay said:


> I looked through the CB for appropriate weapons, but 4e has kind of gone away from bonuses vs 1 type of enemy it seems.  Maybe homebrew something, or add a property to radiant weapons that it glows when orc-kind are present.
> 
> I built a straight bard for him, and I don't like it.  I'm not sure I like the Bard/Swordmage either.  Not 100%.  I like parts of it.  Still musing over the available options.
> 
> Jay



Not quite. We have weapons that deal more damage to dragons (dragonbane, iirc), reptiles (scalebane) and even fey (cold iron). Just rule it as, say, a scalebane weapon and say that the additional damage is against goblins, orcs and trolls/ogres.


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## FurryFighter (Sep 6, 2009)

gandalf wasnt fighting for some deity, I'd say warlord/wizard at the most. I mean come on, the wizard of D&D draws a lot of its influence over the course of  D&Ds lifespan from tolkien.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 6, 2009)

FurryFighter said:


> gandalf wasnt fighting for some deity




The Lord of the Rings that I read disagrees with you.

"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. You cannot pass."

Secret Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## FurryFighter (Sep 6, 2009)

Servent of the fire, not servant of Iluvatar.. He serves life, not the deity that produced it..


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## Klaus (Sep 6, 2009)

FurryFighter said:


> Servent of the fire, not servant of Iluvatar.. He serves life, not the deity that produced it..



Which makes him an Invoker, rather than a cleric.

The D&D wizard owes next to nothing to Tolkien's wizards.


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

Historically one mans holy miracle worker was another mans wizard... it was a point of view issue, agnostic / non-religious magic is ummmm a modern invention with less myth/legend and more recent fiction behind it... 

nothing wrong with that but it is an explanation why Klaus is correct in his statement

"The D&D wizard owes next to nothing to Tolkien's wizards."

Tolkien drew very much from real myth and legend for his material... including his races.

D&D's original Wizard didn't need to be that close even if it was loosely inspired by Gandalf.. its other sources of inspiration were less tightly connected to older myth than Tolkein... 

When I say modern or recent it isnt necessarily that extremely modern.
The dicotomy of Wizard vs Cleric divergence is closer to the distinction of (religion versus science).  And makes it still a very interesting element for story.


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Not quite. We have weapons that deal more damage to dragons (dragonbane, iirc), reptiles (scalebane) and even fey (cold iron). Just rule it as, say, a scalebane weapon and say that the additional damage is against goblins, orcs and trolls/ogres.




Sure it could be done that way... or you could figure all of the above were nocturnals had difficulty even seeing in the sun and 1 turned to stone in direct sunlight. Every one was vulnerable to radiant in Tolkeins visualization so using Sunblade as the effect is perfectly viable.


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

*Narya - Gandalfs Elven Ring of Fire*

*Narya *- It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination, and despair (in other words, evoking hope from others around the wielder), as well as giving resistance to the weariness of time: _"Take now this Ring," he said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill"_ 

In some ways this could be interpreted in D&D terms as a booster to Will Saves and a source of hit points of some sort...

The epic ring - "Luminary Ring" is not bad - though a ring of regeneration which inspires and invigorates its wielder.


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## Klaus (Sep 6, 2009)

In the fight against the Balrog's Fire and Shadow, the Ring of Fire would protect more against the Shadow than the Fire.

In fact, Tolkien's "secret fire" would be akin to radiant energy in D&D terms, while his "shadow" is necrotic.


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

Klaus said:


> In the fight against the Balrog's Fire and Shadow, the Ring of Fire would protect more against the Shadow than the Fire.
> 
> In fact, Tolkien's "secret fire" would be akin to radiant energy in D&D terms, while his "shadow" is necrotic.




Right and true... and the connection to inspiration and healing is certainly true as well ... "dark fire" ... is damaging shadow -- sure necrotic damage resistance.


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

*An interesting dicotomy*



Garthanos said:


> The dicotomy of Wizard vs Cleric divergence is closer to the distinction of (religion versus science).  And makes it still a very interesting element for story.




Just wanted to double emphasize the above - bringing in a Class that closer represents Gandalf, doesn't undermine the coolness of the Wizard -- it could be seen as revealing.

And even if the fluff is a closer match for one class than another.... does not mean you have to build it that way....


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## fireinthedust (Sep 6, 2009)

FurryFighter said:


> Servent of the fire, not servant of Iluvatar.. He serves life, not the deity that produced it..





With all due respect:  Pfft, fiddle faddle.  he did serve a deity in that he was sent from the west by more powerful Maiar.  He's a servant of the more powerful ones, the whole point of being on middle earth.  
     The vague " he serves life" is missing the point.  Tolkien was all about the Christianity, as was his friend CS Lewis.  Sure, Gandalf serves life, but the idea that it would have been that vague is just off.

Class/race:  well, Gandalf isn't 4e.  I might suggest a Defender (as he marks the Balrog) and perhaps a Leader build; but he is a Wizard, and in fact *the* wizard, so let's not get too far from that.
  One of the classes should be divine, the other arcane.  Somehow he should have the ability to teleport (as he could appear and disappear when he wants).
   Race, I think, mechanically and theme-wise Deva really works; looks I don't think so, as for all appearances he was an old man.
      I'd argue a hybrid Swordmage/Invoker, or a Paladin/Wizard.   I would certainly go Deva, but ask the GM to allow you to re-skin him.
     In fact, I'd go Paladin/wizard simply because "you shall not pass!" is marking him.  However, as this is massive MAD, I'd suggest going Swordmage/Cleric or Swordmage/Invoker (sword and staff).


Tier:  Heroic.  The whole series is heroic, getting into Paragon.  Epic Tier is about fighting the Maiar.  There are epic stats for Tiamat and Vecna, so I think LOTR is well below their level.  We're talking initially 1st level halflings, moving into a normal adventuring party and dungeon crawl; then a massive battlefield set of adventures; and Frodo's gruelling two-book skill challenge.  This is hardly Epic, this is obviously up to late heroic/early Paragon tier.
    The Balrog, mind you, is *not* a Balor, despite the similarity in their design.  I'd say a solo monster version, marked by Gandalf on the bridge of Kazad-doom, probably a Solo Brute or Soldier.
    Gandalf died, but came back as a Paragon Path "The White Wizard".


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

Here is one theory that was intriguing if you are talking the whole group.
The halflings were secondary level 1 characters of the Players
Borromir, Arragorn, Legalos and Glimli probably work fine as 6th
level with Gandal low paragon.(gandalfs player didnt get a secondary
character).

Marking an enemy is one interpretation on the bridge and the reason a Swordmage could be a cool element there in -(there was some nice environmental encouragements for focusing especially if the Balrog couldnt fly when so close to the outer world) -- One can emphasize different elements of the characters and get different but In my opinion similarly valid results ;-) ... 

The more presentations the better to me especially people doing Character Builder posts...


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

fireinthedust said:


> Class/race:  well, Gandalf isn't 4e.  I might suggest a Defender (as he marks the Balrog) and perhaps a Leader build; but he is a Wizard, and in fact *the* wizard, so let's not get too far from that.




He is certainly a wizened elderly appearing miracle worker of a reincarnating divine background who propagated hope and knowledge as his sources of power ... and professed servitude to higher power. Who's personality is well invoked by a defender attitude (even paladin like martyrdom and a cool horse)... 
However you also get in most outdoor battles he charged about on shadowfax... doing kind of striker like moves (or even leader like moves hence people arguing Warlord as a possibility)... and the Balrog... taking an enemy one on one to allow your allies to not be subject to what might even be ranged shadow and fire attacks is an Avenger interpretation of that scene on the bridge. (not just a defender)


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

I want to encourage people to post there own interpretations and avoid dismissing anyone else... We are not going to get official versions of a lot literary characters because WOTC doesnt have the rights to them what we come up with here can be really cool and strangely having the atmosphere positive even when we disagree seems the most productive. 

So far everyone seems to agree Deva is a perfect  ;-) (I think human could be used too... in part because they can make awesome hybrid builds)


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## fireinthedust (Sep 6, 2009)

Encouragement: yes, definitely.  And I think it'd be fun to crunch out a few LOTR adventures in 4e.  Sorry if I came on too strong 

Secondaries:  I like the party composition idea, but I think it likely there was a massive 9 person party, and that in the second book the players split up: the GM had three nights a week, but Frodo and Sam could only make it on a night that none of the others could; ditto Pippin and Merry.  As such, the GM ran some solo sessions for kicks, using sub-groups.   At any rate, after the pottery lessons were done with for whoever, and those other guys came back from wherever, the group slowly trickled back together.   There.

Maybe Gandalf's secondary was Gollum.  I smell GM's girlfriend or roommate...

I'll work on some builds when I get home to my computer.  It is a challenge, so thanks for starting this thread!

Wizard:  I mean that he was called a wizard by the dwarves in the hobbit; and the White Wizard by Treebeard.  Just saying 
      I wonder if in general the few spellcasters could each be from a different power source: arcane, divine, necrotic (sauron/witch king), primal (radagast), etc.  Since they're each the only ones of their kind, the players could choose any of their associated classes to draw powers from maybe?  

If it was a Hybrid combo, could we also allow multi-classing feats to be taken?  Or whichever combo the GM would allow?

Aragorn would start as a Ranger, then multiclass paragon into Warlord; it could be argued we use Half-elf for him, and give him a  cleric power (healing hands) as dilettante.  
Gimli: obviously fighter, hand axes and other big axes.  Dwarven Defender when he gets up there, maybe?
Legolas: Archery ranger, full stop; no need to go further.
Boromi: sword and board fighter, maybe Warlord, but dies before paragon; doesn't act warlordy, so that part is fluff we never come across.
Faramir: Boromir's replacement, likely Warlord; ritual caster, as I'd heard he was taught by Gandalf, but I wouldn't hold to that.  
Pippin: thief, ie: Rogue.
Merry: um, rogue.
Frodo: rogue.
Sam: fighter, specializing in club/frying pan.

The Hobbit:
Thorin: warlord
Bard: not a bard; ranger... meh, the GM was probably tired of a player bragging about their character, and let him have one good shot in.
Beorn: Warden, maybe Bear Warrior PP; maybe Druid/Beastmaster hybrid?


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## DracoSuave (Sep 6, 2009)

Bah.  Frodo's the guy who rolled 8s 9s 11s, and a single 15 in a group that 'somehow' always seems to dieroll themselves into 14s, 16s, and 18s.

So -of course- Frodo gets to hold the MacGuffin.

'So have we got for treasure.  Let's see.  A cursed ring of Invisibility that exposes your exact location to the big bad, AND his undead minions? Who wants this?  No one?  I guess Frodo can have it.  And the dumb bastard wants to put it on?  Constantly?  Damn it.  We're splitting the party.'


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

Heh... sure it exposes you but it does something no magic item in the game lets you do.. hide from all your allies and potential friends ..... ummm oh yeah (it also let you hide from the bad guys non undead minions)  The major undead ones were his servitors and not minions by D&D standards ;-).


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

For those inclined to render Gandalf  at lower levels one way of making seeming power houses at lower levels is to incorporate magic items in to the character... for instance Glamdring ... the glowing weapon could be gandalfs paladin strike (hybrid build of some sort probably). He had it for quite a long time... and even after dying and coming back.

By the way.
I use both/either Multiclassing and Hybriding trying to get the characters right. And I ignore expertise feats they really dont  for me contribute to the character flavor. I seem to always have better use for the feats.


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

Here is an idea : The one ring cost Frodo surges to use it especially if he failed a fear check. ... but the invisibility works nicely (except against undead ofcourse).


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## Klaus (Sep 6, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> For those inclined to render Gandalf  at lower levels one way of making seeming power houses at lower levels is to incorporate magic items in to the character... for instance Glamdring ... the glowing weapon could be gandalfs paladin strike (hybrid build of some sort probably). He had it for quite a long time... and even after dying and coming back.
> 
> By the way.
> I use both/either Multiclassing and Hybriding trying to get the characters right. And I ignore expertise feats they really dont  for me contribute to the character flavor. I seem to always have better use for the feats.
> ...



You can have Gandalf be low-level if you set the opposition to be low-level as well. The Balrog doesn't need to have the stats of a Balor or Pit Fiend. It might have the stats of a Huge ogre with an aura of fire akin to a Bloodfire Harpy's.


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

Klaus said:


> You can have Gandalf be low-level if you set the opposition to be low-level as well. The Balrog doesn't need to have the stats of a Balor or Pit Fiend. It might have the stats of a Huge ogre with an aura of fire akin to a Bloodfire Harpy's.




I usually dont get enough features to describe the characters in a satisfying sort of way... it isnt power level "exactly"... for instance I need Gandalf to speak atleast Elf/Dwarf/Goblin now there is also a deva feat that gives me uber speak to anything including those Intelligent Eagles.
I am somewhat satisfied taking a background that gives Gandalf speaking elven. So that I have those three but If i can afford to take Remembered Mother Tongue? thats two more levels  ;-).  Glamdring is a two handed weapon in the books... but he holds a staff along side it (in the movies anyway) so mechanically I want it to be a bastard sword...it doesn't have to be and that is a minor sacrifice. So if I were cutting back 
Instead of a legendary high end paragon sunblade bastardsword I make sure one of his Paladin/Avenger sword attacks is a radiant and using a two handed weapon let him swap out.

I think of these as less is more builds.... instead of low level.


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## Garthanos (Sep 6, 2009)

fireinthedust said:


> Maybe Gandalf's secondary was Gollum.  I smell GM's girlfriend or roommate...




Good call on that one...  and he stayed in play a good long time after he would have been toasted by many.


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## fireinthedust (Sep 6, 2009)

I think a list of Gandalf's powers would help pick what he's got.  Like, what he does throughout the books, and therefore what class we can fudge to be most like him.

1)  Deva: incarnated maiar/angel in flesh.  Dies and comes back.
2)  Uses Glamdring sword: likely Bastard Sword (two handed or one + staff).
3)  Holds the bridge against the balrog (marked?  Divine challenge?)
4)  speaks many languages (possibly supernal?), reads others
5)  appear/disappear when he chooses (fey step?  teleport?  Aegis?  Stealth?!)
6)  knowledgeable; diplomacy (though not always successful (denethor): average Charisma?)
7)  Mounted Combat/Mark of Handling; special mount.
8)  Wise
9)  Can start fires (fellowship): cantrip; possibly fire spells
10)  Can impersonate voices (the hobbit): cantrip  
11)  Bears the elven ring of fire (resistance vs flame?  longevity?)
12)  In the movie makes a gem in his staff glow (dragon shard in eberron; cantrip Light)


I'd argue a low Dex and Con, simply because he needs a walking stick and he smokes.  Well, Russel Crowe smokes and he's fit, so maybe average Con or higher.  
Strength isn't really a priority if we go swordmage, simply because we can use Int for all the attacks if we want.
Wis should be high, Int also, as he'll be a spellcaster; also a shame to waste the Deva stat bumps.
I'd go average on Charisma; he's trained in various social skills, but folks think he's suspicious, and rulers tend not to like him.


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## fireinthedust (Sep 6, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> IGlamdring is a two handed weapon in the books... but he holds a staff along side it (in the movies anyway) so mechanically I want it to be a bastard sword...it doesn't have to be and that is a minor sacrifice.
> 
> (snip)I think of these as less is more builds.... instead of low level.





Not really.  Consider the level you're starting at.  Is this for a game?  If so, and say we're starting at 6th... let me work on it.


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## Garthanos (Sep 7, 2009)

A wierd thought guys... one deva player mentioned having his character swap out classes when the deva died (still divine just what he thought of as a deeper role)

Gandalf the Grey could have been one class...and Gandalf the White built as another.  Perhaps Gandalf the Grey Hybrid Paladin influence and Gandalf the White Hybrid Avenger that type of thing... shrug.

I am fairly happy with some of the early Invoker/Avenger builds but perhaps they are targetting Gandalf the White....

Anyway loads of fun all around.


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## Garthanos (Sep 7, 2009)

Rulers tend to not like what they cannot control (or which they envy) Aragorn too may have been disliked by rulers and over shadowed them when it came to inspiring their men. Charisma is wrapped up the intimidation trick... so spooky can be a manifestation of it. So there is plenty of room for a somewhat or very charismatic, Gandalf.

Interestingly the Deva different lifetimes schtick has some other advantages...In the silmarillion he was a broadscale bringer of hope and differently charismatic healer in the third age he is the storm crow and foreteller of change... before becoming Gandalf the White... he had more defender cast and after perhaps more striker... at least that is how I am reading it.

nice charismatic ... is good at diplomacy... mean charismatic is good at intimidtation..can you have both? ...maybe but you really have to control your context and sometimes being trained or not trained may be a personality change. You could argue that during the third age he has intimidate as a trained skill and a high charisma but relies on that charisma without having diplomacy as a trained skill... in a previous incarnation he had diplomacy as a trained skill but not intimidation.

I guess the reason I ran through the above is allowing for a higher charisma Gandalf as an Intimidating Paladin ...  frees up some build options it also points towards his role in the Third age.(herald of hope is sort of the old Gandalf and he chafes at being less able to influence people the way he used to -- OK that is my interpretation).... The change might have finished itself with his charisma going lower and his wisdom rising when he became Gandalf the White... he became more aloof less connected at that point... a full acceptance of the new role.


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## fireinthedust (Sep 7, 2009)

yeah, but did Gandalf die before coming to the Bridge?  I don't think so.

Really, when we're talking the West, Gandalf was a Maiar.  I'd say this was the period before he became a Deva, basically he was just an angel back then.  As such, he could have massively different stats, whatever.

When he and Saruman, Radagast and the others (the two Blue mages in the South, if not others) came to middle earth, they took the forms of old men.  Gandalf may have been apparently the oldest, needing his walking staff (and thus was called Wand-elf or something, thus Gandalf; it was the stick, I think, but I'll check later).

So let's not throw on a pile of alternate lives, unless this is your particular PC (then you can do whatever you want).  If we're going Gandalf-Gandalf, really we're talking about just one rebirth.
     Also, it makes sense that White Wizard is a Paragon Path, with the specification that there can be only one of them, for this same reason.

However, if you downloaded the Adventure Tools Beta Monster Builder, you now have the opportunity to whip up your very own version of a pre-flesh Gandalf.  Ie: the Angel or Planetar or whatever in D&D we're going to say that he was: Maiar.
     Technically any Outsider from 3e would be considered a Maiar.  The Balrog was one, as was Sauron.  Shelob was the descendant of a powerful spider critter, I think, but I don't know if it was itself a Maiar per se.  There were, I think, Greater ones and lesser ones.  Some went evil, along with Morgoth, most were good I guess, but they stayed behind.  Gandalf and the other wizards were lesser ones.

I think of the West as the Planes in other settings: high level beasties go there.


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## Elbeghast (Sep 7, 2009)

Klaus said:


> I'd say:
> 
> - Race: Deva
> - Class: Invoker
> ...



That sounds relatively close to Gandalf's concept, or as close to it as you can get using official 4e rules, to me.

I love all the examples you guys come up with. Thanks for this thread.


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## Garthanos (Sep 7, 2009)

Elbeghast said:


> That sounds relatively close to Gandalf's concept, or as close to it as you can get using official 4e rules, to me.
> 
> I love all the examples you guys come up with. Thanks for this thread.




I think the thread has been quite productive... it has got me looking back at the character source.  There is a lot to be said just for that. 

Some classes I hadnt thought of as contributing ... like the shielding swordmage does have a place... and  dark fire as necrotic damage...  glamdring as a sunblade (bastardsword) ...and I am really liking thee paragon path of Flame of Hope... between invoker with a touch of multiclass and/or hybrids I am very satisfied that 4e builds a great Gandalf or more precisely several great Gandalfs.


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## fireinthedust (Sep 8, 2009)

I'd really like to run a LOTR game.  My current game (which needs updating; we've been on a break) is a lot like that, in that the setting is... less trivial and more romantic, if that makes sense, like LOTR should be; but it's not as gritty or as classical a fantasy tale.

I'm having trouble with my Gandalf builds for Wizard/Paladin, in that the MAD is making him... well, useless.  I mean, he's a wizard who gets by with a sword, right?  However, he also wields a staff, smokes, and doesn't cast fireballs.  He needs Cantrip, sure, but otherwise he'd be fine without special effects for the most part.  
    So to have any sort of bonus to any of these abilities, he needs to have a high Int, Wis/Cha (for paladins), Con (for staff of defense), and Str (for even basic melee attacks, if not paladin thwaks with a sword; unless I use that PH2 feat letting me use Int or Wis for basic attacks).
     Ugh.

Maybe Swordmage/Wizard would be good, with some Cleric benefits for healing?

I'm going to grab a copy of Fellowship of the Ring and see if I can't hash this one out.  It's going to bother me.


I second thanks for the thread!  Good idea!


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## Klaus (Sep 8, 2009)

While we're at it, let's go the Full Monty:

- Gandalf: deva preserving invoker/flame of hope.
- Aragorn: half-elf valorous bard/ranger
- Boromir: human guardian fighter/warlord
- Gimli: dwarf greatweapon fighter
- Legolas: elf archer ranger/battle archer


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## Garthanos (Sep 8, 2009)

Klaus said:


> While we're at it, let's go the Full Monty:
> 
> - Gandalf: deva preserving invoker/flame of hope.
> - Aragorn: half-elf valorous bard/ranger
> ...




Any other ideas about the other characters out there?
Making the hobbits blanket rogues I object to.
I find Frodo more warlord like (inspiring allies).
Even bilbo finding the chink in Smaugs armor
and giving it to Bard was like a long distance
warlord trick... ;-)
and both merri and pippin seem to multiclass in
to fighter later... and sam maybe into warlord.

House Rules Zone : I can see changing the magic system so
 that detecting magic use over a distance is easier... and similar things.


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## Saagael (Sep 8, 2009)

I always though Pippin would be a rogue with multiclass bard, and Merry is a rogue multiclassed as fighter. Sam is fighter multiclassed (or hybrid) warlord, and Frodo is... tough to place. I'd most likely go with warlord or fighter.

I don't recall many situations where Frodo actually fought and won against some big baddie (it was always Sam who seemed to save the day), so I'm not sure if a melee class is right for him.


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## Garthanos (Sep 8, 2009)

Klaus said:


> - Aragorn: half-elf valorous bard/ranger



Is there specific abilities that have you pulling for the bard route?
I certainly saw the half-elf fairly easily.


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## Garthanos (Sep 8, 2009)

Saagael said:


> I always though Pippin would be a rogue with multiclass bard, and Merry is a rogue multiclassed as fighter. Sam is fighter multiclassed (or hybrid) warlord, and Frodo is... tough to place. I'd most likely go with warlord or fighter.
> 
> I don't recall many situations where Frodo actually fought and won against some big baddie (it was always Sam who seemed to save the day), so I'm not sure if a melee class is right for him.




Right and that is loosely why a warlord may work better than some others
all inspiration and guidance - fewer personal actions. (I havent looked at actually building him).
In the stories sometimes heroic characters inspire others to heroic action... or are why the other characters are heroic at all... would either Sam or Gollumn have been involved or pivotol without Frodo?

One skinning of a character who gives there allies openings to attack is
that they arent really very competant in fighting just inspiring enough (people worry about them) and lucky enough that there actions make and reveal openings for there allies... they seem to miss all the time ;-)


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## Ryujin (Sep 8, 2009)

The Hobbits have always struck me as being inspirational characters. I see them as:

Bilbo - Trickster Rogue
Frodo - Inspiring Warlord
Samwise - Trickster  Rogue (Fighter multi)
Merry - Trickster  Rogue (Warlord multi)
Pippin - Trickster  Rogue (Bard multi)

Given the amount of sneaking around that the Hobbits do, I tend to think of them as Rogues first. The multi-classing for Merry and Pippin is based on flavour, more than logic. Merry inspired Eowyn to kill the Ringwraith by hobbling him. Merry kept Denethor going longer than he should have, with song.


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## Klaus (Sep 9, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Is there specific abilities that have you pulling for the bard route?
> I certainly saw the half-elf fairly easily.



Charisma-based weapon attacks (including ones for the bow), "healing hands", the lore of the Numenoreans, his skill in cross-country travel (a reskinned "SOng of Travel") and his inspiration skills ("Rise, Men of the West!"). A Valorous Bard is pretty much a warlord, at any rate.

Of course, as a bard he'd get access to Combat Virtuoso, allowing him to use Charisma for all attack powers from any class he takes. In fact, he might not even need to be a ranger.

Plus, the first thing he does when he gets crowned? He SINGS!


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## Ryujin (Sep 9, 2009)

Except that Strider comes off as anything but Charismatic, to the Halflings.


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## abyssaldeath (Sep 9, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> Except that Strider comes off as anything but Charismatic, to the Halflings.



They did find him very intimidating.


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## Ryujin (Sep 9, 2009)

abyssaldeath said:


> They did find him very intimidating.




Point.


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## Klaus (Sep 9, 2009)

Here's a look at Aragorn:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Aragorn, level 10
Half-Elf, Bard
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Valor
Student of the Sword: Student of One-Handed Weapons

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 16, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 20.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16.


AC: 21 Fort: 18 Reflex: 18 Will: 21
HP: 73 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 18

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +12, Athletics +13, Heal +11, Nature +13, Perception +11, Diplomacy +17, Endurance +13, Stealth +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Bluff +11, Dungeoneering +9, History +8, Insight +9, Intimidate +11, Religion +8, Streetwise +13, Thievery +8

FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Bardic Knowledge
Level 2: Inspiring Leader
Level 4: Student of the Sword
Level 6: Warrior of the Wild
Level 8: Light Step
Level 10: Group Insight

POWERS
Bard at-will 1: War Song Strike
Bard at-will 1: Jinx Shot (ranged)
Dilettante: Ardent Strike (paladin power, applies divine sanction)
Bard encounter 1: Prophesied Strike (ranged)
Bard daily 1: Slayer's Song
Bard utility 2: Healer's Gift
Bard encounter 3: Charger's Call
Bard daily 5: Arrow of Ill Omen (ranged)
Bard utility 6: Mighty Sprint
Bard encounter 7: Scorpion's Claw Strike
Bard daily 9: Saga of Vengeance
Bard utility 10: Spot the Path

ITEMS
Sylvan Leather Armor +2, Righteous Longsword +2, Distance Shortbow +2, Grace Ring of Salvation (paragon tier), Quicksilver Blade Dagger +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

As such he is a melee combatant with some ranged capability. Could easily don chainmail for bigger battles, and is very good in the wilderness. A survivor, but also a born leader.


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## Garthanos (Sep 10, 2009)

Trying to build Frodo as an inspiring Warlord -- feeling less than thrilled --- Warlords need strength? Guess hobbits can be deceptively strong for their size like faeries are.
Silent hunter background just to get stealth on the skill lest ;-)

Frodo, level 1
Halfling, Warlord
Build: Inspiring Warlord
Commanding Presence: Inspiring Presence
Background: Silent Hunter (Silent Hunter Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 15, Wis 11, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 12, Int 15, Wis 11, Cha 16.


AC: 17 Fort: 12 Reflex: 13 Will: 15
HP: 25 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +3, Diplomacy +9, Stealth +7, Perception +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +2, Bluff +4, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, History +2, Insight, Intimidate +4, Nature, Religion +2, Streetwise +4, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Lost in the Crowd

POWERS
Warlord at-will 1: Furious Smash
Warlord at-will 1: Commander's Strike
Warlord encounter 1: Guarding Attack
Warlord daily 1: Bastion of Defense

ITEMS
Chainmail, Adventurer's Kit, Short sword, Light Shield


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## Garthanos (Oct 9, 2009)

*Gandalf with the Avenger Element Shining Through.*


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## Garthanos (Oct 9, 2009)

Frodo Link just in case somebody comes here and is interested ;-)
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/265385-frodo-bilbo-hybrid-warlord-rogue.html


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## Tony Vargas (Oct 15, 2009)

In the litterary sense, Gandalf is there as a plot device, and for explacation.  He explains things and occassionally acts as a Deus ex Machina.  4e wouldn't logically model him with a PC race & class.

Gandalf's entry would start with:  "Gandalf,  Medium Immortal  Controller (Leader)..."  

He'd be a 'monster.'


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## Garthanos (Oct 15, 2009)

Other issues would interfere with Gandalf as written in a D&D game... dont think you mentioned many of them 
The issue with Gandalf along side the other heros of lower levels even as a npc (too easy to overshadow them).  My son suggested Gandalf was missing all the time on higher level private adventures.  The convention of restraining use of power to desparate circumstances is not very pc like.. the eminent threat of being detected needs some sort of mechanic if you wanted him to be played as a pc.


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## Tony Vargas (Oct 16, 2009)

Sorry about that, offensive bits removed.


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