# Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden -- A Comprehensive Review



## Ath-kethin (Sep 21, 2020)

Nice to see WotC was listening in on my Primeval Thule campaign a couple of years back, where we used domesticated axebeaks as mounts and pack animals. Did they credit us with the idea? Probably not. _sad face_


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 21, 2020)

> Sephek Kaltro is a CR3 opponent, has 75 HP, two attacks per round for an average of 24 damage, and has Cold Regeneration. That's a bit overpowered for first-level characters.



Not correct. Whist the players might be given this quest first, they won't resolve it until they have visited at least one more town, possibly several.

Every town, including the one the players start in, has at least one location-quest available, so it's very unlikely players will actually find him until they are at least level 2. A party of 2 level characters should make short work of him if he has to face them alone.

It says in the text, the mission is a bounty hunt, not a murder investigation. Bounty Hunters are not expected to provide proof, just bring in the bounty and get paid. Not that the people of Icewind Dale seem to be into the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing anyway. If the PCs are worried they can always _try_ to bring him in alive.


> why not also have Kaltro murder residents from the towns making other forms of sacrifice



Because gods play by the rules. So long as those smaller towns make the agreed upon lesser sacrifice Auril has no reason to punish them.


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## Weiley31 (Sep 21, 2020)

As much as enjoy the book, I feel like the _proper_ way of doing the final encounter against Auril(Or the True Ending game route) would actually require the players to go to the Hungering Caves, find the Netherese city, and use the thingie bobber in there to break the Everlasting Winter, prompting the Frostmaiden to show up to prevent that. Fighting Auril there, (her posse and her three forms)feels like it would be the final boss fight of the module.

I kinda find it weird that simply slaying the Roc she rides on, would pretty much dampen her plans or even take that long to get a new one. Like okay, she rides around on it casting her Everlasting Winter, but is completely unable to cast it from her Island? Like, I know she's that weak currently, but daaaamn. (Although I get they are monstrosities, which isn't something you just find wondering out in nature as easily.)


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## Jeff Carpenter (Sep 21, 2020)

I didn't get a horror vibe from this adventure. The only way it resembled "The Thing" is it that there is snow. The issolation and paranoia are not realy there for the PC. They are not trapped anywhere they can literally leave at any time. I just don't get the comparison. Its a adventure scenario not a horror scenario. 

Second gripe, and this is most WOTC adventures, a picture will show some amazing location and the map will then be tiny. The Dueger fortress looks huge in the art, but then is just three stories of map. Like a reverse Tardis. 

I dont think this is terrible, but it was marketed as horror and i did see the horror in it.


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## Weiley31 (Sep 21, 2020)

Jeff Carpenter said:


> The issolation and paranoia are not realy there for the PC.



I think the isolation is more for the fact that, in the present situation in the module, is that Icewind Dale/The Ten-Towns, are _cut off_ from the rest of the world due to Auril's Everlasting Winter. Sure you can leave any of the Ten-Towns and travel deeper into the wilds of Icewind Dale, but try taking a boat back to the Sword Coast and things became a whole lot more complicated with the inability to leave.

The paranoia? Well that can be done depending on how you handle the secrets. Especially if one player is a certain secret that would make their lives a lot harder if everybody found out about it. Plus there's the folk in the Ten-Towns and stuff. Another secret can pretty give you a potential _Boogieman(?)_ if you spec it out to be that way.

Plus don't forget, you can always _Three Kobolds in a Trenchcoat_ it if necessary.


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## MarkB (Sep 21, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Not correct. Whist the players might be given this quest first, they won't resolve it until they have visited at least one more town, possibly several.
> 
> Every town, including the one the players start in, has at least one location-quest available, so it's very unlikely players will actually find him until they are at least level 2. A party of 2 level characters should make short work of him if he has to face them alone.
> 
> ...



Cold Hearted Killer is one of the two starting quests, and it's strongly suggested that players will tackle it first. If they take the time to ask around in their starting town they can go directly to the correct town to intercept Torg's company, and while they may pick up other quests along the way, there's no particular reason why they'd prioritise them over this hunt for a serial killer.


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## Laurefindel (Sep 21, 2020)

Ath-kethin said:


> Nice to see WotC was listening in on my Primeval Thule campaign a couple of years back, where we used domesticated axebeaks as mounts and pack animals. Did they credit us with the idea? Probably not. _sad face_



To be fair, I too had Axe Beak mounts and pack animals in my setting a few years back, but I totally ripped that idea from the Final Fantasy series. While interesting as an unusual D&D mount, the idea itself is pretty old.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 21, 2020)

It has quite a lot of situations where a PC can aquire insanity, and they all have a chance to turn into a monster in the final chapter. Not to mention things bursting out of PCs chests at the dinner table, devil worshipers, etc.

But any horror is in how the DM presents it.


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## Weiley31 (Sep 21, 2020)

For _Cold Hearted Killer,_ who says you have to end the quest off with a fight? You can pretty much have Saphek Kalto be a reoccurring encounter/figure ala Resident Evil 2's Mr. X and then have a proper Boss Fight encounter when necessary.


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## MarkB (Sep 21, 2020)

Weiley31 said:


> For _Cold Hearted Killer,_ who says you have to end the quest off with a fight? You can pretty much have Saphek Kalto be a reoccurring encounter/figure ala Resident Evil 2's Mr. X and then have a proper Boss Fight encounter when necessary.



It's tricky to spin that as not being a failure for the PCs though, and that's not a great way to start an adventure.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 21, 2020)

MarkB said:


> It's tricky to spin that as not being a failure for the PCs though, and that's not a great way to start an adventure.



There are quite a lot of opportunities for the PCs to fail in this adventure. If you like your games "PCs always win, no matter what dumb decisions they make" then this adventure aint for you.

One quest pretty much hinges on the PCs blowing themselves up and needing to be resurrected!


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## MarkB (Sep 21, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> There are quite a lot of opportunities for the PCs to fail in this adventure. If you like your games "PCs always win, no matter what dumb decisions they make" then this adventure aint for you.
> 
> One quest pretty much hinges on the PCs blowing themselves up and needing to be resurrected!



Yep, and I'm looking forward to some of those quests - but maybe don't do it to the players first time out, and not for the cumbersome reason of "you're not tough enough yet to tackle this, the very first opponent you encounter".


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## Jeff Carpenter (Sep 21, 2020)

Weiley31 said:


> Sure you can leave any of the Ten-Towns and travel deeper into the wilds of Icewind Dale, but try taking a boat back to the Sword Coast and things became a whole lot more complicated with the inability to leave.




I dont see that in the adventure. The players can leave. The adventure even says the prison has boats from the south that resupply it. 

Speaking of the prison the whole thing is operating orderly and fine. Where is the chaos you would expect in a horror model? Prisoners driven to cannibalism by a sadistic warden barely in controll after being cut off from civilization?


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 21, 2020)

MarkB said:


> Yep, and I'm looking forward to some of those quests - but maybe don't do it to the players first time out, and not for the cumbersome reason of "you're not tough enough yet to tackle this, the very first opponent you encounter".



Anyone who has ever played a CRPG knows to do the sidequests first! I think it's very unlikely players would reach this point still first level. And if they are a cunning an ambush could take him out even then.

It's a sandbox, not Apollo 13. Failure is always an option.


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## Weiley31 (Sep 21, 2020)

MarkB said:


> It's tricky to spin that as not being a failure for the PCs though, and that's not a great way to start an adventure.



If they are bounty hunting him, then of course the goal would be tracking him down and then eventually his capture. And that can take place over a couple of moments or days if ya wanted it to.


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## MarkB (Sep 21, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Anyone who has ever played a CRPG knows to do the sidequests first! I think it's very unlikely players would reach this point still first level. And if they are a cunning an ambush could take him out even then.
> 
> It's a sandbox, not Apollo 13. Failure is always an option.



So, this is the first quest the PCs are given. They'll get one more quest in their starting town. Then, if they ask around and succeed at a skill check, they can go directly to the town where Torg is, picking up maybe one more quest. So they now have a choice of three quests to pursue, but there are two levels of urgency to this one - if they lose track of Torg's caravan they'll have to relocate it, and if they leave the killer loose he'll strike again.

There's every reason why they might pursue this quest first.

And even if they don't, there aren't a lot of Ten Towns quests that are any more forgiving to first level characters. Some of them will be a serious challenge at second level.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 21, 2020)

MarkB said:


> And even if they don't, there aren't a lot of Ten Towns quests that are any more forgiving to first level characters. Some of them will be a serious challenge at second level.



The difficulty bar is set consistently high all the way through. That's partly where the horror comes in!


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## MarkB (Sep 21, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The difficulty bar is set consistently high all the way through. That's partly where the horror comes in!



In my experience throwing overlevelled monsters at players engenders an air of frustration, not horror. The horror should come from the situation, not from "oh dear, you ran out of hit points, better luck next time."


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## sim-h (Sep 21, 2020)

I wouldn't leave it to chance. I plan to involve the PCs in both starter quests but not from day one. They'll hear about the murders first and then get approached a bit later, maybe when they make their own enquiries someone will tip them off that a dwarf bounty hunter in (insert convenient town here) claims to have a lead. Mind you I can't run this until I finish my Roll20 campaign, then the midway-through face to face campaign...2022 probably!


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## Ath-kethin (Sep 21, 2020)

Laurefindel said:


> To be fair, I too had Axe Beak mounts and pack animals in my setting a few years back, but I totally ripped that idea from the Final Fantasy series. While interesting as an unusual D&D mount, the idea itself is pretty old.



Wait. Are you suggesting that a Hasbro subsidiary took influence from a popular video game and/or other aspects of general pop culture and not a random person they've never heard of playing in a game store they've never heard of?

The nerve.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 21, 2020)

The good thing about axebeaks is they double up as a cosy shelter if you get caught in a blizzard at night.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 21, 2020)

MarkB said:


> In my experience throwing overlevelled monsters at players engenders an air of frustration, not horror. The horror should come from the situation, not from "oh dear, you ran out of hit points, better luck next time."



Nah, the real reason there are ten starter towns is they expect the players to be (re)starting a lot!


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## MarkB (Sep 21, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The good thing about axebeaks is they double up as a cosy shelter if you get caught in a blizzard at night.



But they smell even worse on the inside.


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## talien (Sep 21, 2020)

Laurefindel said:


> To be fair, I too had Axe Beak mounts and pack animals in my setting a few years back, but I totally ripped that idea from the Final Fantasy series. While interesting as an unusual D&D mount, the idea itself is pretty old.



How did I not make the connection that these were chocobos!


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## Urriak Uruk (Sep 21, 2020)

I'd like to start by commending @brimmels for her reviews, and that this is another great one! Always happy to read these as they give great overviews and point out criticisms while being fair, while pointing out her own preferences.

Anyway, I'm not sure if I'll be picking up this book, as I don't own all of the adventures and I don't _need_ another one right now. I'll probably pick up a new one around XMas, but I'll ask;

Between _Rime of the Frostwind, Out of the Abyss, _and _Storm King's Thunder_, which do you think (and this is an open question) is the best adventure, for a "typical" group of players?


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## wicked cool (Sep 21, 2020)

curious on what others are choosing as the intro adventures? im find many of them to be lacking and its going to take a few to get into the middle of the book


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## MarkB (Sep 21, 2020)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Between _Rime of the Frostwind, Out of the Abyss, _and _Storm King's Thunder_, which do you think (and this is an open question) is the best adventure, for a "typical" group of players?



I don't know _Storm King's Thunder_, but what I like about this adventure compared to _Out of the Abyss_ is that it puts the players in the position of becoming part of the community, gaining reputations, becoming embroiled in the affairs of the towns, even becoming property owners or local politicians, whereas in _Out of the Abyss_ (at least the first half) the ultimate goal is to get as far away from everything as you can.


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## MarkB (Sep 21, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> curious on what others are choosing as the intro adventures? im find many of them to be lacking and its going to take a few to get into the middle of the book



So far, I like _Lake Monster_, _Foaming Mugs_ or _A Beautiful Mine_ as starting adventures. After that, chaining _The Unseen _and _Black Swords_, culminating in the Easthaven ferry subquest, would do well at leading into the subsequent main plot. Alternatively, following up _Lake Monster_ with _Holed Up_ and _The White Moose_ becomes its own "awakened animals" questline, culminating in confronting Ravisin.


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## Demetrios1453 (Sep 21, 2020)

Weiley31 said:


> As much as enjoy the book, I feel like the _proper_ way of doing the final encounter against Auril(Or the True Ending game route) would actually require the players to go to the Hungering Caves, find the Netherese city, and use the thingie bobber in there to break the Everlasting Winter, prompting the Frostmaiden to show up to prevent that. Fighting Auril there, (her posse and her three forms)feels like it would be the final boss fight of the module.
> 
> I kinda find it weird that simply slaying the Roc she rides on, would pretty much dampen her plans or even take that long to get a new one. Like okay, she rides around on it casting her Everlasting Winter, but is completely unable to cast it from her Island? Like, I know she's that weak currently, but daaaamn. (Although I get they are monstrosities, which isn't something you just find wondering out in nature as easily.)




That is an option, detailed on page 260. Granted, it just says that Auril visits Ythryn if the party is there for over a day, but I'm sure a visit would be warranted as well if they disrupt the weather.

The party is supposed to visit Auril's island at level 7, at which point defeating both the roc and Auril more or less at once (they inhabit locations immediately adjacent to each other) would be a hugely difficult task. I'd imagine most parties would plan to visit the location when she's out casting her nightly spell instead of taking on a goddess (even a weakened one) head on in her home. But if they want to charge in head on at that point, more power to them!


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## Reynard (Sep 21, 2020)

I did not realize until these recent Rime threads that it was so common for people to be upset at the loss of a 1st level character. I don't get it. You haven't had enough time to get to know them. Just bury them and start another. Adventuring is dangerous business. Heroes are the ones that survive. I totally get being disappointed by losing the character you have been playing for months, but if half the party wipes on the first adventure, that just establishes the stakes going forward.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Sep 21, 2020)

This adventure has my new favorite D&D monster, the gnome ceremorph. I love gnomes, mind flayers, and adorable monsters, and this fits all 3 of those categories. I absolutely cannot wait to put those squishable little squids into my games. Also, they can be any alignment, even though they eat brains.


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## MarkB (Sep 21, 2020)

Reynard said:


> I did not realize until these recent Rime threads that it was so common for people to be upset at the loss of a 1st level character. I don't get it. You haven't had enough time to get to know them. Just bury them and start another. Adventuring is dangerous business. Heroes are the ones that survive. I totally get being disappointed by losing the character you have been playing for months, but if half the party wipes on the first adventure, that just establishes the stakes going forward.



The thing is, that first character you bring into the campaign is the one you really invest in, even before it starts. It's the one you have time to really work on, to plan out. The one whose backstory you can fully develop, and that the DM can work to incorporate into the campaign right from the start. That's a lot more than you'll do with the replacement character you worked up in ten minutes while the rest of the party were finishing off the thing that ate your first character's face.

Also, the first quest tends to set the tone for the adventure to come. If your first experience in a new game is your character getting their face eaten off by the first thing they encountered, that doesn't feel like an auspicious start.


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## Lord_Blacksteel (Sep 21, 2020)

The most recent appearance of Icewind Dale prior to this is in Storm King's Thunder where one of the early chapters involves PC's helping one of the towns out during an attack by frost giants, and I believe some of the same NPCs show up in both adventures, so it's not quite as neglected as it might seem. Also might be a nice touch if your players have been through that campaign .


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## Reynard (Sep 21, 2020)

MarkB said:


> The thing is, that first character you bring into the campaign is the one you really invest in, even before it starts. It's the one you have time to really work on, to plan out. The one whose backstory you can fully develop, and that the DM can work to incorporate into the campaign right from the start. That's a lot more than you'll do with the replacement character you worked up in ten minutes while the rest of the party were finishing off the thing that ate your first character's face.
> 
> Also, the first quest tends to set the tone for the adventure to come. If your first experience in a new game is your character getting their face eaten off by the first thing they encountered, that doesn't feel like an auspicious start.



See, this is why I try and point people to semi-serial ensemble television as the best example of how to model RPG campaigns: characters are defined by a few (usually stereotypical) aspects at the beginning, so they have a role to fill, but real depth and backstory and, well, character emerge over time.

Also, a good example of a character that died too early is Tasha Yar from Star Trek: The Next Generation. She was interesting while she was there, with a cool backstory and defined characteristics and place in the "party." She had a lot of promise and surely she would have become as truly deep and nuanced as Worf or Data or Troi. But she died -- she failed a save and got eaten by the tar monster. But that does not mean her time in the "campaign" was wasted and the things she did and the experiences other characters had with her were suddenly gone or unimportant.

The threat of PC death is a thing that only exists in 5E for a very short time. I for one think it is worth embracing that threat for as long as it lasts and use it to enhance play.


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## Istbor (Sep 21, 2020)

Urriak Uruk said:


> I'd like to start by commending @brimmels for her reviews, and that this is another great one! Always happy to read these as they give great overviews and point out criticisms while being fair, while pointing out her own preferences.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not sure if I'll be picking up this book, as I don't own all of the adventures and I don't _need_ another one right now. I'll probably pick up a new one around XMas, but I'll ask;
> 
> Between _Rime of the Frostwind, Out of the Abyss, _and _Storm King's Thunder_, which do you think (and this is an open question) is the best adventure, for a "typical" group of players?



Personally, and this is coming from someone who is just this edition starting to run published adventures, I rank them at RotF, OotA, and then SKT. 

I love stories told in extreme conditions, or in unfamiliar landscapes. The sad part of SKT, was that I love giants, but the adventure really ended not having the feel that I had hoped for. 

I have not run Rime yet, but I have run both the others, and SKT just felt the most disjointed to me. My players did not much like the floating tower. But did love the beginning. Where you encounter the Nightstone pummeled and fight goblins in a cave. They wanted to make that their base of operations, but all the huge amount of travel kind of disheartened them. 

OotA, felt a bit more cohesive in play, and I could inject a lot more cool stuff that I made myself. I feel the Underdark being less mapped out and explored allowed for this. The Underdark felt like its own mega-dungeon the way we played and that really spoke to my players. 

From reading Rime, I think one could pull off a similar feel, but have that oppressive weather really hammer in the feeling of desperation and amplify horror or insanity if you feel like it. 

This could also have that 'mega-dungeon feel. And instead of spikes of insanity and terror that OotA could have with appearances of the Demon Lords, in RotF it is constant and pervasive. I have lived in the Northern regions where there is little light and in times of constant snow or bad weather and it can have powerful effects on the psyche.


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## Urriak Uruk (Sep 21, 2020)

Istbor said:


> Personally, and this is coming from someone who is just this edition starting to run published adventures, I rank them at RotF, OotA, and then SKT.
> 
> I love stories told in extreme conditions, or in unfamiliar landscapes. The sad part of SKT, was that I love giants, but the adventure really ended not having the feel that I had hoped for.
> 
> ...




Nice, this is a great comparison!


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## Wraith Form (Sep 21, 2020)

Reynard said:


> The threat of PC death is a thing that only exists in 5E for a very short time. I for one think it is worth embracing that threat for as long as it lasts and use it to enhance play.



Hear, hear.  Jolly good.


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## Seramus (Sep 21, 2020)

Laurefindel said:


> To be fair, I too had Axe Beak mounts and pack animals in my setting a few years back, but I totally ripped that idea from the Final Fantasy series. While interesting as an unusual D&D mount, the idea itself is pretty old.



Axe Beak Mounts were also used in the Neverwinter MMO. That's at least 2013.


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## Seramus (Sep 21, 2020)

Reynard said:


> I did not realize until these recent Rime threads that it was so common for people to be upset at the loss of a 1st level character. I don't get it. You haven't had enough time to get to know them. Just bury them and start another. Adventuring is dangerous business. Heroes are the ones that survive. I totally get being disappointed by losing the character you have been playing for months, but if half the party wipes on the first adventure, that just establishes the stakes going forward.



Takes me a whole week to make a character. Granted, a week is usually how long I have to make the next one.


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## robus (Sep 21, 2020)

brimmels said:


> Gloom, fear, and existential dread infest every part of it.



So pretty much same as reality then....


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## robus (Sep 21, 2020)

brimmels said:


> As much as I like *ID:RotF,* a lot of the flaws are disappointing because they could have been easily avoided with a little more editing and listening to playtest feedback.



Quelle surprise!


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## robus (Sep 21, 2020)

brimmels said:


> WOTC's repeatedly overpowered first-level challenges are baffling.



I really wish WotC would publish a “designers notes” PDF with these adventures that gives us insight into their design objectives. But I have a feeling there isn’t really much of that. I think LMoP was the first and last adventure that was carefully designed, the rest have been “throw stuff at the book and hope it sticks“...


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## Eltab (Sep 21, 2020)

MarkB said:


> It's tricky to spin that as not being a failure for the PCs though, and that's not a great way to start an adventure.



The PCs can bring in the suspect as per the usual, leave him with The Authorities, and go do something else.  After a time, in the PCs' absence, the suspect goes Jason (or Psycho or Joker or whoever) on the jail staff and flees town.  Later on the PCs hear familiar-sounding "old rumors" that in truth are recent. 

Also lets the DM set up the final chapter of the novel _Frankenstein_, with both the Doctor and his Monster heading into the trackless north for their final confrontation.  (Which may not truly be a combat.)


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## robus (Sep 22, 2020)

MarkB said:


> I don't know _Storm King's Thunder_, but what I like about this adventure compared to _Out of the Abyss_ is that it puts the players in the position of becoming part of the community, gaining reputations, becoming embroiled in the affairs of the towns, even becoming property owners or local politicians, whereas in _Out of the Abyss_ (at least the first half) the ultimate goal is to get as far away from everything as you can.



I‘ve run part 2 of SKT and tried a high level (failed) remix of OotA and my concern with ID:RotFM is the relentless sameness of it all. It got tedious in OotA and I imagine the same would happen in this adventure. SKT has a lot more variety of locations. I think a monotonous environment really cuts back on the exploration pillar.


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## MarkB (Sep 22, 2020)

Eltab said:


> The PCs can bring in the suspect as per the usual, leave him with The Authorities, and go do something else.



Except that the quest giver's specific instructions are that they deal with the guy without involving the authorities. Which basically amounts to the DM telling them that they will be able to take him on themselves.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Sep 22, 2020)

Seramus said:


> Axe Beak Mounts were also used in the Neverwinter MMO. That's at least 2013.
> 
> View attachment 126541



IIRC, there are some orcs that ride them in Storm King's Thunder while attacking one of the cities.


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## DaveDash (Sep 22, 2020)

MarkB said:


> The thing is, that first character you bring into the campaign is the one you really invest in, even before it starts. It's the one you have time to really work on, to plan out. The one whose backstory you can fully develop, and that the DM can work to incorporate into the campaign right from the start. That's a lot more than you'll do with the replacement character you worked up in ten minutes while the rest of the party were finishing off the thing that ate your first character's face.
> 
> Also, the first quest tends to set the tone for the adventure to come. If your first experience in a new game is your character getting their face eaten off by the first thing they encountered, that doesn't feel like an auspicious start.




If you're worried about this, start your characters at level 2. I did this in Curse of Strahd.


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## Eltab (Sep 22, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> IIRC, there are some orcs that ride them in Storm King's Thunder while attacking one of the cities.



Yes.  The orc cavalry is rather overshadowed by the giants digging a big hole in the middle of town.  Then again, the cavalry's job is to chase Small Folk off in disarray, not defeat the local defense force.


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## Eltab (Sep 22, 2020)

MarkB said:


> Except that the quest giver's specific instructions are that *they deal with the guy* without involving the authorities. Which basically amounts to the DM telling them that they will be able to take him on themselves.



(emphasis added)
In _Dragon Heist_, my STR-Ranger wrestled a wererat into submission once we realized nobody had a silvered or magical weapon that would do it any hurt. 
Give your PCs the chance to think outside the box.


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## the Jester (Sep 22, 2020)

Am I the only one who finds it baffling that these tiny towns can call up like 20% of their population as a militia? Even assuming a higher than normal rate of willing-to-be-warriors in the population, I feel like every one of these towns has waaaay too many tribal warriors available.


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## Todd Roybark (Sep 22, 2020)

robus said:


> I really wish WotC would publish a “designers notes” PDF with these adventures that gives us insight into their design objectives. But I have a feeling there isn’t really much of that



There is a pretty substantial amount of DM guidance on how to play any of the numerous oddball NPCs available.  Overall, this is the best written adventure WOTC has released so far.
(I have not read the Starter/ Essential sets)


robus said:


> SKT has a lot more variety of locations. I think a monotonous environment really cuts back on the exploration pillar.



I hated that about SKT, no real ability to develop any location well as the players were always traveling.  I like the encounters in Rime.  I like that LG town leaders are sacrificing people to appease Auril.  

You could set SKT anywhere....Rime is a well developed location.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 22, 2020)

MarkB said:


> Except that the quest giver's specific instructions are that they deal with the guy without involving the authorities. Which basically amounts to the DM telling them that they will be able to take him on themselves.



The PCs are free to resolve quests in any way they like. If your players haven't grasped this, then you need to spell it out in session zero.

Of course if they do try and take him to the authorities, they will soon discover that there aren't any. No police, no judiciary, just a harassed mayor who has more than enough problems without the PCs dumping another one in her lap.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 22, 2020)

the Jester said:


> Am I the only one who finds it baffling that these tiny towns can call up like 20% of their population as a militia? Even assuming a higher than normal rate of willing-to-be-warriors in the population, I feel like every one of these towns has waaaay too many tribal warriors available.



No, this is the wild frontier, not uptown Waterdeep. Anyone between the age of 14 and 60 has to be able to fight.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 22, 2020)

Eltab said:


> (emphasis added)
> In _Dragon Heist_, my STR-Ranger wrestled a wererat into submission once we realized nobody had a silvered or magical weapon that would do it any hurt.
> Give your PCs the chance to think outside the box.




In curse of strahd I had a flock of wereravens strangle a werewolf to death.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 22, 2020)

Okay, so I just ran though the fight with Sephek using four of the downloadable pregens from the official site - human fighter, dwarf cleric, high elf wizard, halfing rogue, all first level. (NB I would rate those pregens very non-optimised!)

The party won in 3 rounds, but the rogue was killed outright by a critical hit. CR 3 is supposed to be a deadly encounter for 4 first level characters, so that seems about right. It's only a medium difficulty encounter for _six _first level characters though.

I didn't use what I would consider the best tactic against Sephek though - hit him with Tasha's Hideous Laughter.

The other cheep tactic would be to kite him with ranged attacks - his ranged attacks are weak and short range, he moves at normal speed and he has a lousy AC.


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## MarkB (Sep 22, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> No, this is the wild frontier, not uptown Waterdeep. Anyone between the age of 14 and 60 has to be able to fight.



Plus about half of them are retired adventurers.


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## Reynard (Sep 22, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The PCs are free to resolve quests in any way they like. If your players haven't grasped this, then you need to spell it out in session zero.
> 
> Of course if they do try and take him to the authorities, they will soon discover that there aren't any. No police, no judiciary, just a harassed mayor who has more than enough problems without the PCs dumping another one in her lap.



This is why I am making the PCs the authorities. Or, at least, an arm of the authorities in the form of the Council of Speakers.


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## sim-h (Sep 22, 2020)

MarkB said:


> Plus about half of them are retired adventurers.




One things for sure - they certainly like a beer or two, particularly in Bremen! (Five taverns for a population of 150)


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## MarkB (Sep 22, 2020)

sim-h said:


> One things for sure - they certainly like a beer or two, particularly in Bremen! (Five taverns for a population of 150)



There is at least an explanation for how that came about - though not for how they stay in business.


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## Istbor (Sep 22, 2020)

MarkB said:


> Plus about half of them are retired adventurers.



Not to mention we are talking about a world where monsters are real. If you live out in a rural area, and especially the frontier, you have to be ready and able to defend yourself. 



MarkB said:


> There is at least an explanation for how that came about - though not for how they stay in business.



I grew up in a small rural town with 6 bars (maybe a population of 300 if being generous?) . So I totally see it feasible. Gotta have something in town for the people out trapping, prospecting, lumberjacking, and what have you, to do to spend some of that coin.


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## Eltab (Sep 22, 2020)

MarkB said:


> There is at least an explanation for how that came about - though not for how they stay in business.



If there is no grocery in town, you eat at the tavern or you don't eat (or you don't eat very well) - how would you stock a pantry, beyond some garden vegetables / herbs?

Hmmm now I wonder if Juneau during the Yukon Gold Rush era could be used as a model for Ten Towns.


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## MarkB (Sep 22, 2020)

Istbor said:


> Not to mention we are talking about a world where monsters are real. If you live out in a rural area, and especially the frontier, you have to be ready and able to defend yourself.



And the stat block they're using isn't exactly a major threat. CR 1/8th, AC 12 in hide armour, 11 hit points , +1 Strength. They're basically commoners in fur coats.



> I grew up in a small rural town with 6 bars (maybe a population of 300 if being generous?) . So I totally see it feasible. Gotta have something in town for the people out trapping, prospecting, lumberjacking, and what have you, to do to spend some of that coin.



I take the description of them as "independent" taverns with a pinch of salt. It wouldn't surprise me if they're effectively acting as a cartel, pretending to compete with each other and each offering different incentives, while actually working together to fix prices and get the best deals on bulk deliveries. Probably an open secret to the town residents, mostly done to fool travellers.


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## Istbor (Sep 22, 2020)

MarkB said:


> And the stat block they're using isn't exactly a major threat. CR 1/8th, AC 12 in hide armour, 11 hit points , +1 Strength. They're basically commoners in fur coats.
> 
> Humanity's strength is often depicted as our versatility, coordination, and numbers. I know we are lumping other humanoid races in there, but I think the theory is the same. The stats definitely speak to just a bunch of frontier folk defending what is theirs.
> 
> I take the description of them as "independent" taverns with a pinch of salt. It wouldn't surprise me if they're effectively acting as a cartel, pretending to compete with each other and each offering different incentives, while actually working together to fix prices and get the best deals on bulk deliveries. Probably an open secret to the town residents, mostly done to fool travellers.




Could be. It is also what tavern leagues are for. Makes sure business is generally fair/competitive. Plus we certainly see that level of cooperation from other real world industries. I only meant that seeing that many bars in a small town wasn't plucked from thin air. It can totally happen, especially where there isn't a lot of other entertainment, and a good portion of your customers don't really live in the town, but come in from time to time.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 22, 2020)

Eltab said:


> If there is no grocery in town,



People who live that far north have an almost entirely carnivorous diet.

Probably why there aren't many elves in Icewind Dale.


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## jasper (Sep 22, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> People who live that far north have an almost entirely carnivorous diet.
> 
> Probably why there aren't many elves in Icewind Dale.



Burp they were delicious. What is not cannibalism If another race. The high elfs were a little off.


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## Seramus (Sep 23, 2020)

MarkB said:


> Except that the quest giver's specific instructions are that they deal with the guy* without involving the authorities*. Which basically amounts to the DM telling them that they will be able to take him on themselves.



I thought that was saying "He is incredibly shady and not to be trusted in the slightest. Possible unreliable narrator. *Look out! Look out!*"


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## Zaukrie (Sep 23, 2020)

Wow. There is A LOT in this book. It will take me days to come close to digesting it. I'm very impressed with the stories....


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## mserabian (Sep 23, 2020)

for those who have it, how are the RP potentials in the campaign? I know the end is a bunch of Dungeon Crawls, but are there good opportunities for RP even there?


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## Zaukrie (Sep 23, 2020)

The design of the dragon threat and attacks is pretty unique for a WotC product, and I really, really, really love it. From a story perspective, it is realistic and has consequences. Big fan of that section (it's the one I've read in the most detail also).


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## muglinimic (Sep 24, 2020)

Ath-kethin said:


> Nice to see WotC was listening in on my Primeval Thule campaign a couple of years back, where we used domesticated axebeaks as mounts and pack animals. Did they credit us with the idea? Probably not. _sad face_






Laurefindel said:


> To be fair, I too had Axe Beak mounts and pack animals in my setting a few years back, but I totally ripped that idea from the Final Fantasy series. While interesting as an unusual D&D mount, the idea itself is pretty old.




Same, same. White Riders, one of the many sewer gangs beneath Mantol-Derith in my Out of the Abyss campaign. They rode albino axe beaks. I too played FF.


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## muglinimic (Sep 24, 2020)

MarkB said:


> I don't know _Storm King's Thunder_, but what I like about this adventure compared to _Out of the Abyss_ is that it puts the players in the position of becoming part of the community, gaining reputations, becoming embroiled in the affairs of the towns, even becoming property owners or local politicians, whereas in _Out of the Abyss_ (at least the first half) the ultimate goal is to get as far away from everything as you can.




I realized half-way through OotA that I wanted this for my players and had the svirfneblin hand reward them with the opportunity to start a business in Mantol-Derith. The PCs came to see M-D as their home, worth protecting from demon lords, and forgot about the surface.


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## Todd Roybark (Sep 24, 2020)

mserabian said:


> for those who have it, how are the RP potentials in the campaign? I know the end is a bunch of Dungeon Crawls, but are there good opportunities for RP even there?



I think so.  The locations are solid and there are many different reasons for why the PC group will chose to go to a place.


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## Azzy (Sep 24, 2020)

Laurefindel said:


> To be fair, I too had Axe Beak mounts and pack animals in my setting a few years back, but I totally ripped that idea from the Final Fantasy series. While interesting as an unusual D&D mount, the idea itself is pretty old.



Heh, I've had them as mounts and pack animals, too, in one campaign setting I created. But I was ripping the idea off _Nausicaä of the Valley of Wind_ instead.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 24, 2020)

mserabian said:


> for those who have it, how are the RP potentials in the campaign? I know the end is a bunch of Dungeon Crawls, but are there good opportunities for RP even there?



Lots of opportunity for role playing. Even the dungeon sections involve NPCs with their own agenda who may or may not assist the party.


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## Scott Christian (Sep 24, 2020)

Reynard said:


> See, this is why I try and point people to semi-serial ensemble television as the best example of how to model RPG campaigns: characters are defined by a few (usually stereotypical) aspects at the beginning, so they have a role to fill, but real depth and backstory and, well, character emerge over time.
> 
> Also, a good example of a character that died too early is Tasha Yar from Star Trek: The Next Generation. She was interesting while she was there, with a cool backstory and defined characteristics and place in the "party." She had a lot of promise and surely she would have become as truly deep and nuanced as Worf or Data or Troi. But she died -- she failed a save and got eaten by the tar monster. But that does not mean her time in the "campaign" was wasted and the things she did and the experiences other characters had with her were suddenly gone or unimportant.
> 
> The threat of PC death is a thing that only exists in 5E for a very short time. I for one think it is worth embracing that threat for as long as it lasts and use it to enhance play.



Great example.

I would add to your statement that characters emerge and add depth over time - yes. But they do so while maintaining their core characteristics. Warf, while showing depth, never leaves his propensity to be a warrior with anger issues. He may be raising a child. He may have to sit and roll his eyes through diplomatic bickering. But, his initial character is always there interacting with his new depth.


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## jasper (Sep 24, 2020)

The secrets have lots of RP hooks.  I just finished a 3 page calendar for the game. It lists Full Moon, New Moon, and when secrets come due.  I did give Drizzt Fan to on of my Bob players.


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## uzirath (Sep 27, 2020)

mserabian said:


> for those who have it, how are the RP potentials in the campaign? I know the end is a bunch of Dungeon Crawls, but are there good opportunities for RP even there?




I think so. More than I expected. A variety of NPCs with various motivations. The PCs can develop alliances and enemies and some of those categories can shift or flip-flop, depending on how things play out.


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## jasper (Sep 29, 2020)

Could someone pass the words back to Stacey Allan, Will Doyle, Mike Schley that the maps on page 69, 97, 123, 135, 147, 152, and 247 are art and not usable maps. Can you please use white grid lines if you going dark colors. The ship map on 125 is useable with strong light. Hey I am 55+ and use glasses.


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## mserabian (Sep 29, 2020)

So I've picked it up and started my read through ... I've got one big problem for my group so far... Towns sacrificing people to Auril. I know my players. They will not stand for that. Any ideas on what to replace these sacrifices with?


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## Reynard (Sep 29, 2020)

mserabian said:


> So I've picked it up and started my read through ... I've got one big problem for my group so far... Towns sacrificing people to Auril. I know my players. They will not stand for that. Any ideas on what to replace these sacrifices with?



I have been thinking about this for similar reasons -- it makes any town that does it extremely unsympathetic. I might have it done on a voluntary basis. Make Auril herself the bad guy in this and the folks sacrificing themselves into heroes. Or I will just eliminate it entirely. I think it is there for the horror vibe (Midsommer, etc) and I don't need it.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 29, 2020)

jasper said:


> Could someone pass the words back to Stacey Allan, Will Doyle, Mike Schley that the maps on page 69, 97, 123, 135, 147, 152, and 247 are art and not usable maps. Can you please use white grid lines if you going dark colors. The ship map on 125 is useable with strong light. Hey I am 55+ and use glasses.



I'm 52 and need two pairs of glasses, but those maps are perfectly clear to me.

And colour maps are far more useful for virtual tabletops, which these days many of use have no choice but to use.


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## mserabian (Sep 29, 2020)

Reynard said:


> I have been thinking about this for similar reasons -- it makes any town that does it extremely unsympathetic. I might have it done on a voluntary basis. Make Auril herself the bad guy in this and the folks sacrificing themselves into heroes. Or I will just eliminate it entirely. I think it is there for the horror vibe (Midsommer, etc) and I don't need it.




That's exactly the thing in horror movies towns that sacrifice people are bad guys! So since my players know that they'll want to take over the towns or kill the leadership or at the very least keep away from them... It needs to go but since every other town is doing some kind of sacrifice, the 2 towns who do human sacrifice need to do something. Maybe I'll just have them do food or heat and leave it at that...


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 29, 2020)

Reynard said:


> I have been thinking about this for similar reasons -- it makes any town that does it extremely unsympathetic. I might have it done on a voluntary basis. Make Auril herself the bad guy in this and the folks sacrificing themselves into heroes. Or I will just eliminate it entirely. I think it is there for the horror vibe (Midsommer, etc) and I don't need it.



They have no choice, it's that or be annihilated. And the Ten Towns have always been portrayed as pragmatic, not goody goody.

And it doesn't really matter if the PC's aren't sympathetic to the towns, they have their own survival to worry about.


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## MarkB (Sep 29, 2020)

mserabian said:


> So I've picked it up and started my read through ... I've got one big problem for my group so far... Towns sacrificing people to Auril. I know my players. They will not stand for that. Any ideas on what to replace these sacrifices with?



It's definitely an issue. I can see intellectually why the towns are doing it, and what it's costing them psychologically, but it's not going to be easy to reconcile for the players.

There are obvious alternatives - the sacrifices of warmth and food used by the other towns. But bear in mind that you'll need to modify the Cold Hearted Killer quest accordingly if you intend to use it.

Given the size of the three towns that are doing the humanoid sacrifices, if you do change it to sacrifices of food, maybe play up the consequences of that, with the bountiful quantities of meat left out each month having attracted many predators, so that travel in or out of these towns is now extremely perilous. Maybe have people debating switching to humanoid sacrifice simply because it would actually result in fewer deaths.


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## jasper (Sep 29, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I'm 52 and need two pairs of glasses, but those maps are perfectly clear to me.
> 
> And colour maps are far more useful for virtual tabletops, which these days many of use have no choice but to use.



so you scan in the image and it can adjust the contrast. Some of use are using the hardcover, in front of live people.


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## Reynard (Sep 29, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> They have no choice, it's that or be annihilated. And the Ten Towns have always been portrayed as pragmatic, not goody goody.
> 
> And it doesn't really matter if the PC's aren't sympathetic to the towns, they have their own survival to worry about.



It does matter because the players need to want to go on adventures and not burn down entire settlements.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 29, 2020)

I too questioned the sacrifices part, but now I'm going to have to give it real thought.....


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## Eltab (Sep 29, 2020)

Have the town leaders ritually sacrifice an elk or polar bear or similar.  (What do the other gods in FR think an acceptable sacrifice?)  The "sacrificing people!" is exaggeration, based on confiscating private stores / hoards of food or cold-weather gear perhaps - except one town where it really has been done.


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## MarkB (Sep 29, 2020)

Eltab said:


> Have the town leaders ritually sacrifice an elk or polar bear or similar.  (What do the other gods in FR think an acceptable sacrifice?)  The "sacrificing people!" is exaggeration, based on confiscating private stores / hoards of food or cold-weather gear perhaps - except one town where it really has been done.



I think the running theme of the sacrifices is that the people are sacrificing things that they need. The towns sacrificing food are giving up their day's harvest and going hungry. The towns sacrificing warmth are braving the extreme cold for the night with only blankets and body heat for warmth. And, notably, the towns conducting humanoid sacrifice are not sacrificing criminal townsfolk, or captured bandits - which they surely would do, if they believed it would be an acceptable alternative. It has to be a meaningful loss to them.

So yes, they might sacrifice an animal - but only as part of the sacrifice of food, if that animal would have gone to feed the town.

Something the book hints at, but which could have been made more explicit, is that, while none of these sacrifices have caused Auril to relent, they have not gone unnoticed. Cold Hearted Killer shows that she's specifically tasked a minion with eliminating those who attempt to cheat their way out of the sacrifice lottery. Whether you choose to keep or remove the humanoid sacrifices, it might be worth doing something to show that, in any instance where a sacrifice fails to take place, there is some form of harsh retribution from Auril.


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## jasper (Sep 29, 2020)

I have one my players as a former sacrifice. He help off the Cold-Hearted killer. I am planning on if the group is in a city with humanoid sacrifice, small chance of them being chosen.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Sep 29, 2020)

mserabian said:


> So I've picked it up and started my read through ... I've got one big problem for my group so far... Towns sacrificing people to Auril. I know my players. They will not stand for that. Any ideas on what to replace these sacrifices with?



Desperate times call for desperate measures. The towns that are doing this aren't doing it because they're evil, just because they need to survive. Not all of the Ten-Towns are doing human sacrifices, too, IIRC. Maybe they can help those that are sacrificed, secretly so they aren't killed as well, but that's the most they can really do if you are keeping the sacrifices in your game. 

Maybe if the party confronts the town officials on the sacrifices, they could say something along the lines of, "We need to do this in order to stay alive. If you can solve the problem, we won't have to do sacrifices anymore." This way, they'll understand that the people doing the sacrifices don't like doing them, and they want the everlasting rime to end, just like the players.


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## MarkB (Sep 29, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Desperate times call for desperate measures. The towns that are doing this aren't doing it because they're evil, just because they need to survive. Not all of the Ten-Towns are doing human sacrifices, too, IIRC.



The ones that aren't are the smaller ones, and it's purely because they can't afford to. If they sacrificed someone every month, they'd run out of people. But even their lesser sacrifices are killing them slowly. The weaker members of their community are put at risk every time they spend a day without food, or warmth. Per capita, their lesser sacrifices are probably taking just as great a toll as the more direct sacrifices made by the larger towns.


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## Eltab (Sep 29, 2020)

Despite providing the 'out' above, I will say that if this were adapted to Dark Sun (the world where Evil has almost completely won), my advice would be "show one village going through with it."  That world is harsh and civilization but a thin veneer; barbarism can poke through when somebody is _in extremis_.

RotFM is supposed to be horror-based; this can certainly spark off nightmares.


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## Savage Wombat (Sep 29, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> They have no choice, it's that or be annihilated. And the Ten Towns have always been portrayed as pragmatic, not goody goody.
> 
> And it doesn't really matter if the PC's aren't sympathetic to the towns, they have their own survival to worry about.




I'm picturing it as something from out of Stephen King movies - there's just enough townsfolk in the "angry mob" mentality to force the others to go along.  Some of the Speakers probably don't approve, but can't keep control if they try to stop it.


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## MarkB (Sep 29, 2020)

One way to keep the human sacrifice, but not to make it a formal common practice, is for it to be a punishment for those who violate the sacrifices of food or warmth.

In the smaller towns, as described, anyone who hoards food / lights a fire on a day of sacrifice can expect to be severely beaten at best. In the larger towns, a more formal punishment has been imposed: Exposure. Anyone guilty of violating the sacrifice is stripped of cold weather gear, taken a couple of miles out of town, and abandoned.

I think I'm going to do it this way, and also combine the sacrifices for the larger towns. Able to gather more food through hunting, fishing or trade, and to huddle together in larger numbers, they must sacrifice both food and warmth on nights of the new moon to appease the Frostmaiden.

I'm probably not going to use Cold Hearted Killer in my first playthrough, but a good way to adapt it to the above scenario is for the killer to target anyone who successfully avoids the sacrifice of food or warmth and keeps it secret, or who successfully bribes the guards or otherwise diverts suspicion from themselves and thus evades their punishment.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 29, 2020)

MarkB said:


> One way to keep the human sacrifice, but not to make it a formal common practice, is for it to be a punishment for those who violate the sacrifices of food or warmth.
> 
> In the smaller towns, as described, anyone who hoards food / lights a fire on a day of sacrifice can expect to be severely beaten at best. In the larger towns, a more formal punishment has been imposed: Exposure. Anyone guilty of violating the sacrifice is stripped of cold weather gear, taken a couple of miles out of town, and abandoned.
> 
> ...




good idea.....so they sacrifice criminals or something (or, as you say, those that put the town in danger)


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## pukunui (Sep 29, 2020)

One of the plot threads in Rime's predecessor, _Legacy of the Crystal Shard_, has a Reghed barbarian being sentenced to death by exposure after being falsely accused of theft. He is tied to a stake in the center of Bryn Shander (not taken outside the town walls). My players thought this was very heavy-handed, and to be fair I am inclined to agree, but I expect we would all be more amenable to the idea given the higher stakes presented in Rime itself.


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## uzirath (Sep 29, 2020)

I found myself scratching my head at the human sacrifices. It's not like Auril made any demands, according to the text. The humans came up with this on their own. I was a bit surprised that the speaker and sheriff of Bryn Shander were both Lawful Good. I felt like I needed more of an explanation of how the various town speakers came to this "unanimous" decision. And, it's been going on for more than a year, with no sign that Auril is appeased in the slightest. 

If I were to stick with this, I would invest some time in crafting a backstory that provided further justification. I would expect that the other religious institutions, for example, would need to wholeheartedly support the idea.


----------



## eayres33 (Sep 29, 2020)

Only part way through the adventure and it looks pretty good. My biggest issue is while the maps are high quality, most of them are scaled at 10 ft or more per square which is inconvenient for VTT as most players are used to a 5ft scale. No issues when I'm playing at the table but I won't purchase on VTT instead will have to make my own maps/buy other map packs.


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## MarkB (Sep 29, 2020)

eayres33 said:


> Only part way through the adventure and it looks pretty good. My biggest issue is while the maps are high quality, most of them are scaled at 10 ft or more per square which is inconvenient for VTT as most players are used to a 5ft scale. No issues when I'm playing at the table but I won't purchase on VTT instead will have to make my own maps/buy other map packs.



I don't know about other VTTs, but Roll20 adds it's own grid onto maps so you don't have to rely on what's on the artwork. I have bought the module on Roll20 and the maps are set up at the correct scale.


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## Khelon Testudo (Sep 30, 2020)

Firstly, I'd certainly make the sacrifices instructed directly from Auril. "Do this or you all die." Perhaps the serial killer was a wandering prophet, first? And after a town refuses, an entire household is found the next morning, family frozen solid. 

I'm sure no fictional god receives human sacrifices without directly demanding them; even real religions, to my knowledge, insist that sacrifices are demanded by their deity, not an ad hoc guess.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> Firstly, I'd certainly make the sacrifices instructed directly from Auril. "Do this or you all die."



This is how it's presented in the adventure. And it's not an empty threat. Although the messengers are Auril's many frost druid minions.


MarkB said:


> There are obvious alternatives - the sacrifices of warmth and food used by the other towns.



It goes by population size. Auril demands human sacrifice from the larger towns, those with populations over 1000. She permits the towns with populations too small to maintain human sacrifice to make lesser sacrifices.


Reynard said:


> It does matter because the players need to want to go on adventures and not burn down entire settlements.



Your players have a rather twisted sense of morality if they would massacre whole towns for practicing their religion.

That aside, Rime of the Frost Maiden is a deliberately dark toned story, not a Bilbo-esque "lets go on an adventure" romp. There are a number of points in the book where there are no "good" choices, only bad choices or worse choices. If you don't think your players would enjoy that sort of story I would look at running a different adventure. Not everyone enjoys the same sort of story, the world would be very dull if they did.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

jasper said:


> so you scan in the image and it can adjust the contrast. Some of use are using the hardcover, in front of live people.



I have the hardcover, and my eyesight is lousy. But the size of the print is my issue, I wish it was about 20% bigger (but I understand why it isn't). The maps I can see just fine. If you can read the print I don't see why you would have trouble with the maps.


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## Flamestrike (Sep 30, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Your players have a rather twisted sense of morality if they would massacre whole towns for practicing their religion.




Im just imagining PCs (on discovering the town practices a form of limited human sacrifice) being morally offended to the point they raze it to the ground and murder everyone in it.

'Lawful Good'.

Lol.


----------



## Reynard (Sep 30, 2020)

Flamestrike said:


> Im just imagining PCs (on discovering the town practices a form of limited human sacrifice) being morally offended to the point they raze it to the ground and murder everyone in it.
> 
> 'Lawful Good'.
> 
> Lol.



Welcome to Bryn Shander! We have two lovely inns and a beautiful marketplace. Also, stay for the horrible murder of one of our innocent citizens in order to placate the dark goddess.


----------



## Flamestrike (Sep 30, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Welcome to Bryn Shander! We have two lovely inns and a beautiful marketplace. Also, stay for the horrible murder of one of our innocent citizens in order to placate the dark goddess.




PCs: Never! We'll never stand for such immorality! We're Lawful Good! Quick, _lets burn this town to the ground and slaughter everyone in i_t to show how we're opposed to such barbarity!

(Later on, blood soaked PCs standing over the corpses of innocent townsfolk in a smouldering village, the sobs of terrified children in the background)

PCs: We certainly stopped that evil!


----------



## Reynard (Sep 30, 2020)

Flamestrike said:


> PCs: Never! We'll never stand for such immorality! We're Lawful Good! Quick, _lets burn this town to the ground and slaughter everyone in i_t to show how we're opposed to such barbarity!
> 
> (Later on, blood soaked PCs standing over the corpses of innocent townsfolk in a smouldering village, the sobs of terrified children in the background)
> 
> PCs: We certainly stopped that evil!



Hyperbole aside, my real concern is that an introduction to a community presenting that community's leaders as sacrificing innocents to Auril is going to derail whatever quests are meant to start or occur in that community. In my experience, players will usually take that as their main goal -- stop this EVIL that is happening right in front of their eyes. At best it will become a muddled argument about lesser evils and moral relativism, which is the absolute last discussion I want to engage in by way of D&D.

WotC has seemed to like putting in this moral quandries recently -- such as the soul coin issue in Avernus -- and I don't think they land well. Generally speaking I think people prefer playing heroic figures, and shoving grimdark fantasy into D&D doesn't really work IMO.


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## jasper (Sep 30, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Hyperbole aside, my real concern is that an introduction to a community presenting that community's leaders as sacrificing innocents to Auril is going to derail whatever quests are meant to start or occur in that community. In my experience, players will usually take that as their main goal -- stop this EVIL that is happening right in front of their eyes. At best it will become a muddled argument about lesser evils and moral relativism, which is the absolute last discussion I want to engage in by way of D&D.
> 
> WotC has seemed to like putting in this moral quandries recently -- such as the soul coin issue in Avernus -- and I don't think they land well. Generally speaking I think people prefer playing heroic figures, and shoving grimdark fantasy into D&D doesn't really work IMO.



of my gawd.  oh my gawd. Giving your players a ethical problem. Inn Con Sea a Bull. Inn Con Sea A Bull. For Descent some of  the pcs chose not do anything with them.  And the Adventure League penalty of minus 1 to stuff per soul coin used was lame. 
As to the IWD ethical problem. Ten-towns - 3 equal Seven-towns you can help. Nothing on the map or in the book says you have to enter the town. You will just miss out on 3 quests.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Hyperbole aside, my real concern is that an introduction to a community presenting that community's leaders as sacrificing innocents to Auril is going to derail whatever quests are meant to start or occur in that community. In my experience, players will usually take that as their main goal -- stop this EVIL that is happening right in front of their eyes.



Sure. Which means going up against the person who ordered it. Which would be Auril herself.

Rime is an "evil has won" scenario. Auril has made herself the supreme ruler of her little kingdom.


> WotC has seemed to like putting in this moral quandries recently -- such as the soul coin issue in Avernus -- and I don't think they land well. Generally speaking I think people prefer playing heroic figures, and shoving grimdark fantasy into D&D doesn't really work IMO.



It works fine with my players.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

jasper said:


> As to the IWD ethical problem. Ten-towns - 3 equal Seven-towns you can help. Nothing on the map or in the book says you have to enter the town. You will just miss out on 3 quests.



That would be very unfair. It's not that three towns CHOSE human sacrifice. It's that the other towns are excused because they don't have enough population to support it.

As it happens, only about four of the twelve starting quests actually involve PCs "working for the town".


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## Flamestrike (Sep 30, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Hyperbole aside, my real concern is that an introduction to a community presenting that community's leaders as sacrificing innocents to Auril is going to derail whatever quests are meant to start or occur in that community.




For the record I also had serious concerns about this. Of note was the fact that apparently the issue of Human sacrifice was 'unanimously agreed on' by the Town leaders... _many of whom are Lawful Good._

They... didn't kind of.... raise any freaking objections, and get over-ruled by the others?

Even worse, the towns that are not doing human sacrifice (and are instead offering up warmth etc) are only refusing to sacrifice people because their populations are low, and not due to any moral considerations.

I would have preferred to see Towns with evil rulers proposing (and engaging in) evil actions (human sacrifice) and the Good towns trying something... you know... _good_.

It's not something I intend on including in my games, or if I do, it'll be a single Town, and that rulers alignment will be Evil.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

Flamestrike said:


> For the record I also had serious concerns about this. Of note was the fact that apparently the issue of Human sacrifice was 'unanimously agreed on' by the Town leaders... _many of whom are Lawful Good._



How would it be lawful good to let your town's entire population die?


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## Reynard (Sep 30, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> How would it be lawful good to let your town's entire population die?



I think people are under the false impression that Auril is demanding sacrifices and that the leaders of the town are powerless to stop it. The book explicitly states that this is an attempt by the towns to appease Auril. They came to that decision themselves. They CHOSE to use sacrifice to attempt to bring back summer. Even the towns that don't sacrifice innocents are noted as savagely beating anyone who dares avoid the sacrifice. (all on pg 21)

I get what they are going for. it's a long running horror trope. My objection to it is on the grounds that it shift the party's focus to be against the Ten Towns by painting them as the bad guys. Expecting the Paladin of Tyr, for example, to just shrug off human sacrifice is stupid. If it were one town and the whole point of the town was that it was one that had gotten so desperate they were sacrificing people, I can see including it. But generally it doesn't make sense or serve the game in the context of the larger adventure.


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## Flamestrike (Sep 30, 2020)

Reynard said:


> My objection to it is on the grounds that it shift the party's focus to be against the Ten Towns by painting them as the bad guys.




My objection is that it's Lawful Good NPCs that are doing it. And they decided to do it unanimously.


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 30, 2020)

This sounds exactly why I would never want to have character alignments attributed to any PC or NPC in the game.  Because it seems like as soon as you do, people completely forget about the concept of good people doing bad things and bad people doing good things.  It's always "this is what you are, thus everything you do will conform to that alignment".

People are complex.  Let them be.  Don't hamstring them and what their possible motives and actions are just because the writers put down an alignment next to their name.  It doesn't do the characters nor the game any favors.


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## Reynard (Sep 30, 2020)

DEFCON 1 said:


> This sounds exactly why I would never want to have character alignments attributed to any PC or NPC in the game.  Because it seems like as soon as you do, people completely forget about the concept of good people doing bad things and bad people doing good things.  It's always "this is what you are, thus everything you do will conform to that alignment".
> 
> People are complex.  Let them be.  Don't hamstring them and what their possible motives and actions are just because the writers put down an alignment next to their name.  It doesn't do the characters nor the game any favors.



For me it has nothing to do with alignments -- it is just about actions and what kinds of people D&D adventurers generally are. They are the kinds of characters that stop human sacrifices when they enter random towns. They are (usually) the good guys -- not because they have LG written on their sheet but because the game is mostly about heroic fantasy. Sure, it's shallow heroism usually, where the good guys mow down hordes of bad guys -- nameless bandits and cultists.

Ultimately, it isn't that hard to eliminate. In my Ten Towns, every town will be sacrificing warmth. It is thematically appropriate and not morally questionable. I'll make Sephek Kaltro one who believes that sacrificing people will sate Auril and so he will believe he is doing good by murdering innocents. That's a "moral quandry" I am much more comfortable with in games I run.

As always, YMMV.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

Reynard said:


> I think people are under the false impression that Auril is demanding sacrifices and that the leaders of the town are powerless to stop it. The book explicitly states that this is an attempt by the towns to appease Auril. They came to that decision themselves.



No, it is not a false impression, it is the truth.

Remember, the Forgotten Realms is a place where gods are _real_. If you want to know what will appease a god it is easy to find out - just ask one of their clerics (or druids). When they consult the auguries those auguries are _true_.

And the sacrifices are _working_. As has already been pointed out, it would be miraculous for the Ten Towns to survive after two years of darkness and arctic winter. The fact that they everyone isn't already dead proves the effectiveness of the sacrifices.


> My objection to it is on the grounds that it shift the party's focus to be against the Ten Towns by painting them as the bad guys.



The Ten Towns are doing what they are told to do. Auril is the ruler and dictator of Icewind Dale. If your players want to hold the people of the Ten Towns responsible for the actions of their ruler, then I think your player's morality is far more disturbing than those who are sacrificing to keep everyone alive.

And frankly, if the players can't cope with that, then I can't see them coping with the rest of the adventure either. Deciding which towns to save from the dragon? Passing the Test of Cruelty? Working alongside a self-serving necromancer?

NB, Tyr is a Norse god, and the Norse gods accepted human sacrifices.


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## Reynard (Sep 30, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> No, it is not a false impression, it is the truth.
> 
> Remember, the Forgotten Realms is a place where gods are _real_. If you want to know what will appease a god it is easy to find out - just ask one of their clerics (or druids). When they consult the auguries those auguries are _true_.
> 
> ...



You are demonstrably wrong. Here is the text from the section titled Sacrifices to Auril on page 21:

"The desperate people of Ten Towns, *hoping to appease Auril* so that summer can return to Icewind Dale, make sacrifices to the Frostmaiden on nights of the new moon. *This is a new practice* that started a little over a year ago, when it became clear that Auril was angry and summer would not be returning anytime soon. The town speakers (see the "Council of Speakers" sidebar) *have unanimously agreed* to honor these practices, *which they consider to be necessary evils*, but would end them in a heartbeat if Auril were to be appeased or dealt with in some way." (all bold mine)

Auril has nothing to do with it. This is a mortal decision based on fear and desperation. Her entry says that she is incapable of showing mercy and makes no mention of her response to the sacrifices because she does not care. She is an embodiment of cruelty and evil. So no, it absolutely is not working.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

Reynard said:


> You are demonstrably wrong. Here is the text from the section titled Sacrifices to Auril on page 21:
> 
> "The desperate people of Ten Towns, *hoping to appease Auril* so that summer can return to Icewind Dale, make sacrifices to the Frostmaiden on nights of the new moon. *This is a new practice* that started a little over a year ago, when it became clear that Auril was angry and summer would not be returning anytime soon. The town speakers (see the "Council of Speakers" sidebar) *have unanimously agreed* to honor these practices, *which they consider to be necessary evils*, but would end them in a heartbeat if Auril were to be appeased or dealt with in some way." (all bold mine)
> 
> Auril has nothing to do with it. This is a mortal decision based on fear and desperation. Her entry says that she is incapable of showing mercy and makes no mention of her response to the sacrifices because she does not care. She is an embodiment of cruelty and evil. So no, it absolutely is not working.



Rulers do not make decisions on a whim. The book doesn't have space to go into how the Ten Towns came to there decision, but the implication is they would have consulted the experts - i.e. Auril's druids.

Auril is a god, and gods respond to sacrifices - that's how polytheism works. And in the Forgotten Realms, it's how they gain power. Auril is not merciful, but she is gaining strength (strength she lacks) from the sacrifices of the Ten Towns. It is absolutely effective because it is in her interest to keep the Ten Towns alive so long as they sacrifice to her. If the sacrifices stop she can and will destroy them.


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## Reynard (Sep 30, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Rulers do not make decisions on a whim. The book doesn't have space to go into how the Ten Towns came to there decision, but the implication is they would have consulted the experts - i.e. Auril's druids.
> 
> Auril is a god, and gods react to sacrifices - that's how polytheism works. And in the Forgotten Realms, it's how they gain power. Auril is not merciful, but she is gaining strength (strength she lacks) from the sacrifices of the Ten Towns. It is absolutely effective because it is in her interest to keep the Ten Towns alive so long as they sacrifice to her. If the sacrifices stop she can and will destroy them.



That's all well and good as far as it goes, but it is conjecture and the way you are going to run it. You shouldn't be telling other people they are wrong for not using the same logic you use to come up with explanations for information left out of the module.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

Reynard said:


> That's all well and good as far as it goes, but it is conjecture and the way you are going to run it. You shouldn't be telling other people they are wrong for not using the same logic you use to come up with explanations for information left out of the module.



It's implied in the text. As I said, in the Forgotten Realms it not hard to find out what a god wants. That's a feature of the setting.


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## Reynard (Sep 30, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's implied in the text. As I said, in the Forgotten Realms it not hard to find out what a god wants. That's a feature of the setting.



It's not just not implied in the text, it is directly refuted in Auril's description ("no mercy"). People are trying to fill the "2 years without summer" plot hole with the idea that the sacrifices are working. Which would not matter except it drastically changes the moral calculus of those sacrifices if they are working or not. And according to the text, they aren't working and the sacrifices are just desperation.

In any case, I feel this dead horse is pretty well tenderized.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

Reynard said:


> It's not just not implied in the text, it is directly refuted in Auril's description ("no mercy").



No, it isn't. Acting in according to vested self interest and the rules that FR gods operate under is not "Mercy".


> In any case, I feel this dead horse is pretty well tenderized.



And I still say that if your players have trouble dealing with grey morality, they are going to have trouble with the whole adventure. You know what the difference between Icewind Kobolds and regular Kobolds is? Their alignment is "any" (and they have higher CON). Players might find themselves doing the usual "slaughter the kobolds" routine, only to discover that the kobolds weren't the bad guys.


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## Reynard (Sep 30, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> No, it isn't. Acting in according to vested self interest and the rules that FR gods operate under is not "Mercy".
> 
> And I still say that if your players have trouble dealing with grey morality, they are going to have trouble with the whole adventure. You know what the difference between Icewind Kobolds and regular Kobolds is? Their alignment is "any" (and they have higher CON). Players might find themselves doing the usual "slaughter the kobolds" routine, only to discover that the kobolds weren't the bad guys.



Accepting the murder of innocents to an evil goddess for no tangible benefit is not "grey morality."


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Accepting the murder of innocents to an evil goddess for no tangible benefit is not "grey morality."



Auril could have destroyed the Ten Towns with no effort whatsoever. That she has not done so proves a clear tangible benefit.


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## MarkB (Sep 30, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Auril could have destroyed the Ten Towns with no effort whatsoever. That she has not done so proves a clear tangible benefit.



She hasn't tried. She doesn't care either way about the Ten Towns, she just wants to freeze the entire region - and she's continuing to do so regardless of the sacrifices.

There is nothing in the adventure to indicate that the sacrifices are resulting in any actual benefit. They're an act of desperation.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

MarkB said:


> She hasn't tried. She doesn't care either way about the Ten Towns, she just wants to freeze the entire region - and she's continuing to do so regardless of the sacrifices.
> 
> There is nothing in the adventure to indicate that the sacrifices are resulting in any actual benefit. They're an act of desperation.



It is an established rule of the Forgotten Realms that deities gain power from the prayers and sacrifices of their worshipers (and the book mentions this when discussing her return).

Of course she cares. She wants everything completely frozen and lifeless, and she has the power to do that. But in doing so she would be shooting herself in the foot so long as she is getting power from the Ten Towns.


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## Reynard (Sep 30, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It is an established rule of the Forgotten Realms that deities gain power from the prayers and sacrifices of their worshipers (and the book mentions this when discussing her return).
> 
> Of course she cares. She wants everything completely frozen and lifeless, and she has the power to do that. But in doing so she would be shooting herself in the foot so long as she is getting power from the Ten Towns.



Killing everyone in Icewind Dale will increase her worship as cultists in other frozen lands see how terrible and powerful she is. Or, at least, that's just as good a plot-hole-filling-theory as you've got. Auril's motivations in the module are muddy at best. one might even say "inscrutable." But it doesn't matter. She's a horrible, monstrous goddess. Who cares what she wants or thinks? The PCs just have to find a way to release the region from her hold -- I mean, if that's their thing. Maybe they just want to figure out how to survive long enough to loot all the frozen corpses. or maybe all they really want is to find the Netherese city and the whole Frostmaiden thing is incidental.


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## Paul Farquhar (Sep 30, 2020)

Auril's motivations are hinted at, suggesting it is part of a larger story. She is "in hiding" from a "divine" enemy.


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## Reynard (Sep 30, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Auril's motivations are hinted at, suggesting it is part of a larger story. She is "in hiding" from a "divine" enemy.



Likely related to some big event on the way. Probably a level 13+ adventure centered around the obelisks and maybe set in Planescape. I would not be the least bit surprised if that's next spring's book.


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## jasper (Sep 30, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Q1. It is an established rule of the Forgotten Realms that deities gain power from the prayers and sacrifices of their worshipers (and the book mentions this when discussing her return).
> 
> Q2. Of course she cares. She wants everything completely frozen and lifeless, and she has the power to do that. But in doing so she would be shooting herself in the foot so long as she is getting power from the Ten Towns.



Um, Can I get the page number in what ever book for Q1. As to q2. I never bought into the idea of Gawds need worship batteries.


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 30, 2020)

Don't look for black and white answers.  In any of the D&D adventure books.  All of them give broad thematic ideas and brief possible explanations for things that happen within the adventures... but purposefully leave windows and doors wide open for individual DMs to work out for themselves what would work best for their table when they run it.

If some DMs can extrapolate reasons and ideas as to why supposedly Lawful Good town leaders would sacrifice a human to Auril, then great.  That plot point can stay.  If other DMs can't... then they'll eliminate the plot point.  No skin off of anyone's nose.

The only thing a DM has to be careful of is recognizing which parts of these adventures are meant to uphold the themes of the adventure and make sure to keep them (or substitute them) if they want that theme to remain in place.  If you want to maintain the dead lands theme of Dark Sun, you don't let druids cast Plant Growth.  If you want to maintain the forboding nature of Ravenloft you don't get rid of the cloud cover.  If you want to maintain the horror movie aspects of Frost Maiden, figure out what desperate measures a desperate people would actually do.  (And if you don't care about the horror thematics... then do whatever you want with the adventure!)


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## FrozenNorth (Sep 30, 2020)

Flamestrike said:


> (Later on, blood soaked PCs standing over the corpses of innocent townsfolk in a smouldering village, the sobs of terrified children in the background)
> 
> PCs: We certainly stopped that evil!



Please, as if there would be the sobs of terrified children in the background... they would have all been killed.


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## Khelon Testudo (Oct 1, 2020)

A question I'd ask: Who did the Ten Towns worship before Auril made her demands/presence known? Why haven't any of those gods intervened?

There's a good chance a PC will be a cleric of a deity, and will want to know this.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Oct 1, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> A question I'd ask: Who did the Ten Towns worship before Auril made her demands/presence known? Why haven't any of those gods intervened?
> 
> There's a good chance a PC will be a cleric of a deity, and will want to know this.



The adventure doesn't say. It doesn't seem to say on the Forgotten Realms Wiki, either. The DM will probably have to determine that. 

I would imagine that there used to be different temples and priests to different deities, maybe Tyr, Torm, Helm, Ilmater, Chauntea, and a few others, but with Auril taking over the region, they either would have left or been driven out by the ten-towners. The old temples could have been converted for other purposes, which the players possibly could discover while in Bryn Shandar or another larger city.


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## pukunui (Oct 1, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> A question I'd ask: Who did the Ten Towns worship before Auril made her demands/presence known? Why haven't any of those gods intervened?
> 
> There's a good chance a PC will be a cleric of a deity, and will want to know this.





AcererakTriple6 said:


> The adventure doesn't say. It doesn't seem to say on the Forgotten Realms Wiki, either. The DM will probably have to determine that.
> 
> I would imagine that there used to be different temples and priests to different deities, maybe Tyr, Torm, Helm, Ilmater, Chauntea, and a few others, but with Auril taking over the region, they either would have left or been driven out by the ten-towners. The old temples could have been converted for other purposes, which the players possibly could discover while in Bryn Shandar or another larger city.



_Rime_'s section on Bryn Shander references Mithann's shrine to "the Morninglord" (it also changes her name to "Mishann" and adds that she doesn't like it when people conflate Amaunator and Lathander, which is new). Glaringly absent is the House of the Triad, which _Storm King's Thunder _refers to as the only real temple in the town. The triad refers to Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater. Not sure why it wasn't included in _Rime_.

According to _Legacy of the Crystal Shard_, there was also a "temple" to Silvanus in a stand of birch trees outside of Easthaven.


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## Khelon Testudo (Oct 1, 2020)

So why aren't any of the gods getting involved, at least indirectly?


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## pukunui (Oct 1, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> So why aren't any of the gods getting involved, at least indirectly?



That's a good question. I've attempted to respond in the other thread so we don't have to have the same conversation in two places.


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## Eltab (Oct 1, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I would imagine that there used to be different temples and priests to different deities, maybe Tyr, Torm, Helm, Ilmater, Chauntea, and a few others, but with Auril taking over the region, they either would have left or been driven out by the ten-towners. The old temples could have been converted for other purposes, which the players possibly could discover while in Bryn Shandar or another larger city.



When I got the 4e _Neverwinter Campaign Setting_ I created a character with twin complementary motivations: (1) I am a Dwarf seeking Gauntlegrym; (2) I am an Invoker of Silvanus sent to find out why the volcano blew (Silvanus god of animals in nature knew only that the event was not natural).

Proposed Rime character hook: My deity sent me to Ten Towns to find out why His/Her temples in the area 'went silent', and get them back to normal operation.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 1, 2020)

jasper said:


> Um, Can I get the page number in what ever book for Q1.



p260: "Auril's death is temporary, for a god who has mortal worshippers can't truly die."


> As to q2. I never bought into the idea of Gawds need worship batteries.



It's been the rule for the Forgotten Realms since 2nd edition at least, and one of the features that makes the setting distinctive. It aint WotC's fault that you don't like the rule.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 1, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> A question I'd ask: Who did the Ten Towns worship before Auril made her demands/presence known? Why haven't any of those gods intervened?
> 
> There's a good chance a PC will be a cleric of a deity, and will want to know this.



In addition to those others have already mentioned, in the IWD CRPG there was a large temple of Tempus in Easthaven - that would have been over 200 years earlier though. Tempus (as Tempos) also has a significant following amongst the Reghed nomads.

But remember, polytheistic religion doesn't involve people turning out to church once a week, people make sacrifices to whatever god is relevant to what they want to ask for.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 1, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> So why aren't any of the gods getting involved, at least indirectly?



What makes you think they are not?


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## Flamestrike (Oct 1, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> A question I'd ask: Who did the Ten Towns worship before Auril made her demands/presence known? Why haven't any of those gods intervened?
> 
> There's a good chance a PC will be a cleric of a deity, and will want to know this.




 It's FR.

Since the Time of Troubles, Gods dont intervene as a general rule.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 1, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Likely related to some big event on the way. Probably a level 13+ adventure centered around the obelisks and maybe set in Planescape. I would not be the least bit surprised if that's next spring's book.



Yes, although I think Spring 2021 is a bit too early for "the next big thing". As for the identity of 5e's Thanos, here are some theories:

1) *Asmodeus*. In that case, Instigating the Duergar to attack the Ten Towns could be seen as a deliberate assault on Auril's "worship batteries". Objection: Would you describe Asmodeus as "divine"?

2) *Bhaal*. The Lord of Murder is up to something, and a tie-in to BG3 is possible.

3) *Tharizdun*. As an interdimensional Big Bad they don't get much bigger.


Afterthought: Is the threat specific to Auril, or are all the FR deities threatened?


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 1, 2020)

Flamestrike said:


> It's FR.
> 
> Since the Time of Troubles, Gods dont intervene as a general rule.



They can send their agents, which may well be what one or more of the PCs is (whether they are aware of it or not).


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## pukunui (Oct 1, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's been the rule for the Forgotten Realms since 2nd edition at least, and one of the features that makes the setting distinctive. It aint WotC's fault that you don't like the rule.



That's how it works for the gods of Theros.

Even the gods of Discworld are dependent on worshipers, which is the main premise of the novel _Small Gods_.



Flamestrike said:


> It's FR.
> 
> Since the Time of Troubles, Gods dont intervene as a general rule.



Well, sort of. Cyric certainly liked intervening a lot. However, as it says on page 10 of _The Rise of Tiamat:_



	
		Tiamat has long threatened Faerûn, often appearing in lands such as Chessenta and Unther to drive mortals to worship her awesome power. Although mortals don't know it, the end of the Sundering and the Era of Upheaval also put an end to such direct meddling by the gods. Without powerful magic and mortal aid, Tiamat cannot travel from her home in Avernus into the world.
		
	


The _Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide _also states:



	
		By 1489, many of the wars that began during the Sundering had ground to a close. Other conflicts arose, and mighty threats s till imperiled the world, but the deities ceased interfering with the world through their Chosen. The gods were no longer silent but quiet, and in many places new priesthoods arose to interpret the gods' now subtle signs.
		
	


It would appear that Auril, in her desire to escape from her frenemies (Talos, Umberlee, and Malar), has found a way to bypass Ao's restrictions, as _Rime of the Frostmaiden _states:



	
		After a world-shaking event known as the Sundering, most of the gods withdrew from Toril, leaving mortals to govern their own fates without the gods’ meddling, but the Frostmaiden could not stay away for long. Auril returned to her icy realm in the far north and, after a time, plunged it into frigid darkness using her magic.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 1, 2020)

pukunui said:


> Even the gods of Discworld are dependent on worshipers, which is the main premise of the novel _Small Gods_.



It's also the premise of Pratchett buddy Neil Gaiman's _American Gods_.

Amunator, who gets a mention in RotFM, has a very similar story to Om.


pukunui said:


> It would appear that Auril, in her desire to escape from her frenemies (Talos, Umberlee, and Malar), has found a way to bypass Ao's restrictions, as _Rime of the Frostmaiden _states:



If it's that mob who Auril is afraid of, they threaten her by way of poaching her worshipers, having overlapping domains. In which case, a major display of power on a minor geographic scale could serve to remind mortals that Auril exists, and thus doesn't get the Om/Amunator treatment.

That kind of low level divine politics has less blockbuster sequel potential though.


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## pukunui (Oct 1, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> If it's that mob who Auril is afraid of, they threaten her by way of poaching her worshipers, having overlapping domains. In which case, a major display of power on a minor geographic scale could serve to remind mortals that Auril exists, and thus doesn't get the Om/Amunator treatment.
> 
> That kind of low level divine politics has less blockbuster sequel potential though.



I haven't read the book in full, just looked some stuff up on D&D Beyond, but all I've found so far is this (which immediately precedes the bit I quoted above):



	
		Auril was aligned with the gods Talos, Umberlee, and Malar. Together they wrought terrible destruction, inspiring fear that compelled tribute to hold their power at bay. Umberlee, queen of the wrathful sea, grew to despise the enduring nature of the ice and snow Auril created. Umberlee seethed when Auril’s frigid cold transformed her chaotic, unpredictable tides into rigid, motionless sheets of ice. Umberlee brought Talos and Malar into an alliance against Auril, who retreated to the coldest corner of Toril to escape their fury. 
		
	



EDIT: And this is what the _Legacy of the Crystal Shard Campaign Guide _has to say about her:



	
		The goddess Auril is the evil deity of cold and winter, and she is counted among the Gods of Fury alongside Talos (god of destructive storms), Umberlee (god of oceans and sea winds, and Malar (god of the savage hunt). Cruel, jealous, and fickle, she thrives on fear, not worship, causing frosts to kill crops and blizzards to assault travelers when she feels her due has not been paid. Auril grants her favor in response to prayers only capriciously. Even those who earn it are not spared the bitter cold of Auril’s breath—only allowed to endure it. More often, the cruel goddess will seem to grant a traveler’s prayer with clear skies and mild weather, only to reveal her true nature with a sudden storm that assaults the traveler far from any shelter. Though her fury often abates as quickly as it is roused, those who provoke the Frostmaiden’s ire seldom survive it.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 1, 2020)

Technically, Icewind Dale isn't the coldest corner. However, it's the coldest corner that has people to worship her in it.


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## jasper (Oct 1, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> p260: "Auril's death is temporary, for a god who has mortal worshippers can't truly die."
> 
> It's been the rule for the Forgotten Realms since 2nd edition at least, and one of the features that makes the setting distinctive. It aint WotC's fault that you don't like the rule.



Thanks for the page number. I been homebrewing since 1980 so I automatically toss lore, I disagree with. My campaign was a little gary, little bit realms, little bit current fantasy thingy, and 40 % of my own.


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## jasper (Oct 1, 2020)

Paul Farquhar said:


> They can send their agents, which may well be what one or more of the PCs is (whether they are aware of it or not).



knock knock. Bob Barbarian knocks down the door. "Freeze. I with the FRI. Forgotten Realms Investigations. "  or
'FIB. Federal Investor of Bhall." or this needs work. and less cat


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## MarkB (Oct 1, 2020)

jasper said:


> knock knock. Bob Barbarian knocks down the door. "Freeze. I with the FRI. Forgotten Realms Investigations. "  or
> 'FIB. Federal Investor of Bhall." or this needs work. and less cat



Or, to borrow from Doctor Who, the CIA - Celestial Intervention Agency.


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## Azzy (Oct 1, 2020)

jasper said:


> Um, Can I get the page number in what ever book for Q1. As to q2. I never bought into the idea of Gawds need worship batteries.



It's been an official aspect of the FR since, at least, 2e's _Faiths and Avarars_. I think it predates that, but I can't be arsed to look it up at the moment.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 1, 2020)

jasper said:


> knock knock. Bob Barbarian knocks down the door. "Freeze. I with the FRI. Forgotten Realms Investigations. "



I'm not sure it would be a good move to tell Auril to "Freeze"!


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## Reynard (Oct 1, 2020)

Azzy said:


> It's been an official aspect of the FR since, at least, 2e's _Faiths and Avarars_. I think it predates that, but I can't be arsed to look it up at the moment.



As far as I know, there is no 5E canon on the subject.


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## Zaukrie (Oct 1, 2020)

"realistic" or not, for some tables, human sacrifices by "good" towns leads to all kinds of problems. If a DM and players don't want that, I am at a loss why some of you insist they should.....


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## Eltab (Oct 1, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> "realistic" or not, for some tables, human sacrifices by "good" towns leads to all kinds of problems. If a DM and players don't want that, I am at a loss why some of you insist they should.....



And I am equally at a loss to understand "my table would go ballistic over this, so nobody else should use it either".

This is an opportunity (in disguise) to exercise the creativity muscle.


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## Zaukrie (Oct 1, 2020)

Eltab said:


> And I am equally at a loss to understand "my table would go ballistic over this, so nobody else should use it either".
> 
> This is an opportunity (in disguise) to exercise the creativity muscle.



right, every table is different......offering ideas for how to handle this is great. Telling others they SHOULD do it one way or the other? Not so great.


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## Reynard (Oct 1, 2020)

Eltab said:


> And I am equally at a loss to understand "my table would go ballistic over this, so nobody else should use it either".
> 
> This is an opportunity (in disguise) to exercise the creativity muscle.



I don't think anyone has said "YOU aren't allowed to do it" in this thread. At most people have argued that you can't have characters of good alignment do it because it isn't a good act.


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## Urriak Uruk (Oct 1, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Accepting the murder of innocents to an evil goddess for no tangible benefit is not "grey morality."




I mean, a lot of normal people watch the murder of innocents in real life and don't do anything... I wouldn't go around calling those people "evil" even if it isn't right.


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## Reynard (Oct 2, 2020)

Urriak Uruk said:


> I mean, a lot of normal people watch the murder of innocents in real life and don't do anything... I wouldn't go around calling those people "evil" even if it isn't right.



Adventurers are not "normal people."


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 2, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> "realistic" or not, for some tables, human sacrifices by "good" towns leads to all kinds of problems.



The Ten Towns are not _good_. They never have been since Salvatore created them. They are predominantly neutral, with a few good and evil people mixed in.


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## Azzy (Oct 2, 2020)

Reynard said:


> As far as I know, there is no 5E canon on the subject.



If that's the case, then there's nothing to contradict established canon.


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## Anthony Winter (Feb 19, 2021)

real play experience notes (Aurils Abode):
Chapter 5 Aurils Abode live play: session 1 (last week getting to the island)
session 2 (last night getting to the big bad in Grimskalle)
youtube: https://youtu.be/K4PqVo7n1SU
podcast: https://ppmc.podbean.com/.../s02e24-hackenthwack-icewind.../

There has been a bit of disguntlement with this chapter in a few blogs/reviews so I thought I'd share our groups experience:

the group explored a couple of wrecks while waiting on Auril to leave
I gave Vellyne water breathing and locate object so it aided the party if they wanted to go into the deeps, and as an explainable way that Nass Lantomir could be located (soho the mephit have a general direction where she went in any case
Using discord it was easy to have Nass possess a PC without the others realising - they soon figured something was up.
I've swapped out Auril for the frost giant druid as per the recommendation in Eventyrs dmsguild pack. I will likely still have auril turn up buts thats for next week.
Thanks robert craft for the inspiration in here to update my landing page (pictured)


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