# Boots of Spider Climbing



## Connorsrpg (Nov 19, 2008)

OK, so I started this in the errata forum on Wizards, but might get more and faster responses here. So here goes.

Boots of Spider Climbing

Could someone please explain them to me. Our group was a little stumped.

1st: Their description says they make you 'better' at climbing. Guess what? No bonus to climbing at all. All they do is make you faster.

2nd: They let you climb at your normal speed. But their daily lets you climb at normal speed for a move action. Isn;t this inherent in the first part. I mean climb is a move action right?

Overall, quite disappointed in these, given a player's character sought them out and then we read them???

Maybe I am not seeing something. What DOES help you climb if boots of spider climbing don't??? They hardly live up to their name. Nothing about vertical or horizontal surfaces. Someone wearing them is no better at climbing than anyone else - seems odd. (Yes, I know faster, but???)

C


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## Tale (Nov 19, 2008)

They don't simply let you climb at your speed, they give you a climb speed.  Having a climb speed means you don't need to make athletics checks to climb.


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## Hypersmurf (Nov 19, 2008)

Tale said:


> They don't simply let you climb at your speed, they give you a climb speed.  Having a climb speed means you don't need to make athletics checks to climb.




Right.  The Property lets you climb faster than other people with a successful Athletics check.  The Daily Power lets you ignore difficult terrain while climbing, you do not grant combat advantage because of climbing, and you do not make Athletics checks to climb.

-Hyp.


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## Connorsrpg (Nov 19, 2008)

Hmm. Looked at it again.

It seems you get a climb speed only for the daily power. So...
1. The boots don't enable you to climb 'better' unless you use the daily.
2. You move at half your speed, but must make a check when not using daily power.
3. Using the daily still means you move at the same speed, but don't make a check.

I think I have it now, but still - not that clear. Nor do the boots make you much of a better climbed except for one move action per day?

However: Does it grant the 'spider climbing' part of the climb movement mode in MM?

BTW: Ignore difficult terrain whilst climbing? What do you mean? I see no mention of this anywhere under climb speed in MM.

Does this sound right?


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## Hypersmurf (Nov 19, 2008)

Connorsrpg said:


> 2. You move at half your speed, but must make a check when not using daily power.




No, you move at full speed when not using the daily.



> BTW: Ignore difficult terrain whilst climbing? What do you mean? I see no mention of this anywhere under climb speed in MM.




Check the Climb Skill in the PHB, p182.

-Hyp.


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## AndItsAllGone (Nov 19, 2008)

It's quite clear, as Hypersmurf said.  The boots' description says, "_These enchanted boots enhance your ability to climb._"  When wearing them, you climb twice as fast.  In addition, the Daily power allows you to climb without a check at all.  That seems pretty enhanced to me, and not bad for a level 5 item.


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## Connorsrpg (Nov 20, 2008)

No, the 'speed' (movement mode) is increased. Only for one move action a day is their actually ability to climb enhanced.

I don't mean to start a bun-fight over this. It was just a little confusing in the game when the player invested in these. It all played out really well in game and having gotten these from a drow it was a good spider-connection. A pair of boots I believed guaranteed his character the ability to climb better...or as the boots say, like a spider? I just felt his dissapointment when we actually found out boots of spiderclimbing don't improve your chances to climb.  Admittedly I missed the climb 'speed' thing needing no check. So now I get to tell him they do improve his ability to climb...for one move action a day. So in my mind (and our group's) I don't see that wearing these boots increase his ability to climb. All the others trained and with much greater Strength scores are FAR better. This player just wanted to make himself better in an area he was not already. (Being a wizard, climb is obviously not an option).


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## AndItsAllGone (Nov 20, 2008)

Really?  How is effectively doubling the wearer's climbing speed not an enhancement?  A person wearing the boots is better at climbing than a person not wearing the boots.  Of course they're not going to be a world-beating item--we're talking about level 5 gear here.


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## Gruns (Nov 20, 2008)

*What?*



Connorsrpg said:


> No, the 'speed' (movement mode) is increased. Only for one move action a day is their actually ability to climb enhanced.
> 
> I don't mean to start a bun-fight over this. It was just a little confusing in the game when the player invested in these. It all played out really well in game and having gotten these from a drow it was a good spider-connection. A pair of boots I believed guaranteed his character the ability to climb better...or as the boots say, like a spider? I just felt his dissapointment when we actually found out boots of spiderclimbing don't improve your chances to climb.  Admittedly I missed the climb 'speed' thing needing no check. So now I get to tell him they do improve his ability to climb...for one move action a day. So in my mind (and our group's) I don't see that wearing these boots increase his ability to climb. All the others trained and with much greater Strength scores are FAR better. This player just wanted to make himself better in an area he was not already. (Being a wizard, climb is obviously not an option).




Hmm... I don't see why you think being able to climb twice as fast counts as  enhancing one's climbing ability?
Say Joe Wizard wanted to climb 10 squares.
Without the boots, that's 4 Climb checks.
With the boots, it's 2 Climb checks, which can leave you at your desired destination in a single turn.
It appears that by wearing the boots, one's Climbing is enhanced to twice as good as it used to be... Seems pretty simple to me...
Gruns


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## Connorsrpg (Nov 20, 2008)

I get the increased speed. very handy, IF you can pass the DC's. The wizard got this itme to be able to pull off some surprise moves, but given he has a crap Str and no Athletics all the speed in the world can;t help him if he can't climb the surface.

I just feel a little bummed. I should have searched harder BEFORE he asked for these, but it came up in play when negotiating with a drow 'shopkeeper' (Thunderspire Labyrinth). It seemed just the thing...but doesn't really help him get up those vertical surfaces (except for the one move action a day).

Does anyone see how 'enhancing' climging here can be confusing?

And on another note - is there another item that does improve his ABILITY to climb?

Cheers, C


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## Connorsrpg (Nov 20, 2008)

Oh and I realise this is good 'especially for a level 5 item'. In fact it is great IF your character already has some skill in climbing.

I was actually expecting less (but as mentioned an actual bonus to help the wizard get up the surface).

I believe a solid bonus to one part of a skill would be less powerful. I know I can just add the + to climb and probably will. I was just putting this odd situation out there (as it happened in game) and maybe others thought it strange (or know of another item I should have used - or sets such a precedent that I could add the + to boots). Obviously I don't have books with me.

Cheers, C


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## Jhaelen (Nov 20, 2008)

Just change the boots. You're the DM, right? If you're fine with it and the player would rather get a bonus to his climb skill, let him have it. Looking at the level I'd say a permanent +2 bonus would be okay. Alternatively give it a daily or encounter power granting a higher bonus and/or additional effect.


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## Benly (Nov 20, 2008)

Connorsrpg said:


> Oh and I realise this is good 'especially for a level 5 item'. In fact it is great IF your character already has some skill in climbing.





The thing is that the old-school Slippers of Spider Climbing made actual skill at climbing largely redundant. One of the goals for 4E is to have your items supplement rather than replace your abilities - hence why you only get the old-style Spider Climbing once per day.

That said, as others have noted a property granting +2 to Athletics checks made to climb wouldn't be out of line as a houseruled bonus.


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## Connorsrpg (Nov 20, 2008)

I am in fact thinking of letting the boots grant training in climbing. Therefore helpful to those that cannot climb already. No extra stacking for those that are trained.

In any case, there are other items that grant skill bonuses right? Sorry, don't have books with me.

C


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## Tale (Nov 21, 2008)

These boots functionally double/halve the disparity between skill value and DC depending upon which benefits the user more.

They double the value of success while not changing the value of failure.  Fewer needed rolls means less chance for failure.


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## Connorsrpg (Nov 21, 2008)

Still very little reassurance if you are not very good at climbing. I mean one failure can be enough.

As I have stated, this character just wanted to climb 'better'. If faced with a cliff to climb down (which he was, he was no more confidet wearing boots of climbing than withouth them).


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## Sunglare (Nov 23, 2008)

If your group is getting involved with lots of climbing then maybe he should take the skill training feat for climbing. After that he can take skill focus for another +3, then he'll blow the socks off everybody else when it comes to climbing. 
Other items that seem to grant a bonus to atheletics are higher level and would quickly turn this item into a level 10+. 
The boots seem to function as they should. I see no reason why they should increase somebodies actual skill at climbing. 

I'm not sure how much climbing is going to be in your game but once a day he will be able to get out of some tough situations. There is nothing saying he can't run so he when he suses the daily part he can add a +2 to his speed. image they are in the middle of a fight and the wizard backs into a 40ft deep pit. Next round he activates his boots and runs out of the pit and is back in the fight. 

Dynamic Belt level 9+ 4200gp
+2 item bonus to athletics and acrobatics checks and once per day you can reroll a skill check if you don't like the first result. 

Gauntlets of orge power level 5. 
Gives a +1 athletics check and once per day you can do 5 extra damage on a melee attack.


Another way to look at it is he bought himself the Sure Climber Feat without having to get the skill training. 
I really dont think you should tack on the skill bonus to the boots to make the wizard feel better about his purchace. It make other items seem overpriced and devalues the other players investment in their class and the training they took.


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## Benly (Nov 24, 2008)

Connorsrpg said:


> I am in fact thinking of letting the boots grant training in climbing. Therefore helpful to those that cannot climb already. No extra stacking for those that are trained.




This seems really quite counter to how magic items are intended to work in 4E. Essentially what you're saying is that the boots can _only_ replace your training, rather than supplementing it.


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## Slaved (Nov 24, 2008)

The Item could be changed so that whenever a Climb Check is made Roll Twice instead and Keep the Better Result.


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## fissionessence (Nov 24, 2008)

I have to agree with the OP that these just really don't feel like Boots of Spider Climbing. They only actually grant you the ability to stick to the wall better _once per day_, so maybe a better name for this item would be 'Boots of Swift Climbing.' Then the Boots of Spider Climbing name would be freed up for something that actually let a character stick to a wall _like a spider_.

Like the player in the OP's group, I was interested in this item by name, but when I read it I was really disappointed [and no longer interested].

~


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## Stogoe (Nov 24, 2008)

fissionessence said:


> Then the Boots of Spider Climbing name would be freed up for something that actually let a character stick to a wall _like a spider_.



But they do let you climb like a spider.  Once per day, when it's narratively awesome for you to do so, but they do.

I'm glad that Magic no longer trumps Skill in D&D.  If your Wizard wants to cling to the walls all day long, he can spend the feat to get the most out of his spider climbing.


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## balard (Nov 24, 2008)

I sugest two easy options:

1-who uses the boots never fall when they fail a climb check. The worst you got is stand still hanging(by your feet, with is hilarious =] )

2-make the daily a whole encounter instead of one round, this way you can go all 'spidey' in a combat or a skill challenge. Maybe you must spend a surge to get this effect.


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## Nebulous (Nov 24, 2008)

I agree that for such a famous and evocative magic item, it's quite boring.


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## Connorsrpg (Nov 24, 2008)

I don't buy the whole a flat '+' would be too powerful. I mean there are Level 2 boots that grant +1 to ALL Acrobatics checks right? This item should help Atheletics 'when climbing'. A boost to one part of the skill.

Thanks to everyone that has offered some options. I totally agree these should be renamed Boots of Swift Climbing. I think I will go with others' ideas for boots that make you better at climbing, inc a + to climb, possibly a reroll on a fall (sounds more secure...and spidery).  Some good ideas there. )And yeah, I was off about boots giving training - that was just for this particular case to help the Wizard, but I don't wat to set that precendent either ).


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## Danceofmasks (Nov 25, 2008)

Maybe it's a cultural misunderstanding.

Like the boots don't allow you to climb _like_ a spider, but rather climb _onto_ a spider.


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