# Babes of Gencon SoCal 2003



## BrooklynKnight (Dec 15, 2003)

Here it is.
Babes of Gencon SoCal 2003

http://www.enworld.org/modules.php?set_albumName=albuo94&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

The pictures were taken by myself and Chris from Twin Rose Software.
I think i've credited most of the pictures properly.

Feel free to add any babes of gencon pics of your own, just please make sure to give credit in the caption to the person who took the picture as i've done.


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## Kichwas (Dec 15, 2003)

Why is it that no matter where you go, gamers all look like they come from Wisconson...  

That said, at least we Californians can give a better showing than the actual mid-westerners. 

Still, all those white people coming to town must've scared the locals. 

Maybe if they'd hold this thing at a time of year when I didn't have either tests or family to deal with I could give showing up for it a try.


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## ToddSchumacher (Dec 15, 2003)

arcady said:
			
		

> Why is it that no matter where you go, gamers all look like they come from Wisconson...




HEY!


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## Ashy (Dec 15, 2003)

Wierd....I usually don't scope out these galleries (no offense to those that do, of course) but something told me to go and check this one out...

And what do ya know, a pic of my dear ol' pal, Lezlie Samuel, ex-WOTC employee!  

http://www.enworld.org/modules.php?...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

'Tis a shame I was not able to make Gen Con So Cal - I would have loved to see her again...she owes me a night o' dancin', in fact!  

Thanks, ArthurQ!


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## WanderingMonster (Dec 15, 2003)

arcady said:
			
		

> Why is it that no matter where you go, gamers all look like they come from Wisconson...
> 
> That said, at least we Californians can give a better showing than the actual mid-westerners.



[tongue in cheek]
Now, you knew you were going to get crap for this, right? 

First off, you can credit gamers from Wiscons*in* for bringing you little things like _D&D_, and the direct predecessor to this here website!  

Gamers from Wisconsin brought you GenCon.

And trust me, gamers from the sunny regions of the world don't have any better tans or physiques than the rest of us.

We also gave you Arnold Schwarzenegger (degree from UW-Superior) AND YOU TOOK HIM!  I think Wisconsin gets the last laugh.

[/tongue in cheek]

That said, I've never worn a cheesehead.


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## Trainz (Dec 15, 2003)

I'll say it, because SOMEONE eventually will:

The Succubus got my attention, make of that what you will...

http://www.enworld.org/modules.php?set_albumName=albuo94&id=Succubus&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php


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## d20Dwarf (Dec 15, 2003)

Here's a shot I took with my new Nikon "Digital Psychic" 3000 camera.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 15, 2003)

Erm, actually, I dont think the girls would appreciate photo manipulation like that. Jenny was really nice and good natured and I think it would be a better if you took that down d20dwarf. Just to be safe, i'd appreciate if ya  did. Thanks.


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## Dark Jezter (Dec 15, 2003)

Edit:  Please ignore this post.


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## Leopold (Dec 15, 2003)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> Erm, actually, I dont think the girls would appreciate photo manipulation like that. Jenny was really nice and good natured and I think it would be a better if you took that down d20dwarf. Just to be safe, i'd appreciate if ya  did. Thanks.


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## Umbran (Dec 15, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

>




Now, don't go rolling your eyes.  ArthurQ has a point.  He had permission to take a photo.  He didn't ahve permission to use that photo to make any old joke we pleased out of it.  One of the reasons these photo albums are allowed is that they are done with a modicum of _respect_ for those in the pictures.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 15, 2003)

If it was not on the other side of the country!  

Good job and thank you, ArthurQ

Any review of the con?  Details, how was the con, attendance, games, dealer room.


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## Bagpuss (Dec 15, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Now, don't go rolling your eyes.  ArthurQ has a point.  He had permission to take a photo.  He didn't ahve permission to use that photo to make any old joke we pleased out of it.  One of the reasons these photo albums are allowed is that they are done with a modicum of _respect_ for those in the pictures.


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## Berandor (Dec 15, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Now, don't go rolling your eyes.  ArthurQ has a point.  He had permission to take a photo.  He didn't ahve permission to use that photo to make any old joke we pleased out of it.  One of the reasons these photo albums are allowed is that they are done with a modicum of _respect_ for those in the pictures.



 I agree with you, but I think the specific photoshop declares the woman (Jane?) to be attractive (as the stormtrooper has always wished to get kissed by her), which doesn't seem to me to be disrespectful. It makes a little fun of the trooper, whose face, and indeed full body, is hidden. So in this case, I'd say it's clearly humorous and not even personally offensive humor.

Furthermore, it's not so much photo manipulation as simply a caption put into the picture, something that happens in the photo album as well (only without changing the picture at hand).

However, it's probably best to set an example before really bad photoshops happen.


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## Leopold (Dec 15, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Now, don't go rolling your eyes.  ArthurQ has a point.  He had permission to take a photo.  He didn't ahve permission to use that photo to make any old joke we pleased out of it.  One of the reasons these photo albums are allowed is that they are done with a modicum of _respect_ for those in the pictures.





do we need to get a lawyer involved in this?


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## jaerdaph (Dec 15, 2003)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> Erm, actually, I dont think the girls would appreciate photo manipulation like that. Jenny was really nice and good natured and I think it would be a better if you took that down d20dwarf. Just to be safe, i'd appreciate if ya  did. Thanks.




Funny. Jenny looks like a woman to me, not a girl.

Not that this thread isn't inherently sexist despite all protestations to the contrary...


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 15, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

>



Huh...  Eleven hours.  I'm impressed...


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## Trainz (Dec 15, 2003)

...


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## Taren Seeker (Dec 15, 2003)

Since all the cool kids are doing it...



_edit: Not a death threat._


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## Wraith Form (Dec 15, 2003)

(_in Homer voice_):   Mmmmm, booth babe sandwich.  With me as the (ahem) "meat".


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## Wraith Form (Dec 15, 2003)

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> (_in Homer voice_):   Mmmmm, booth babe sandwich.  With me as the (ahem) "meat".



 (_in Homer voice_):  Mmmmmmmm, ranger/sorceress sandwich.


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 15, 2003)

Editted at the request of P-kitty, my feline overlord.


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## Gez (Dec 15, 2003)

No need to pollute this thread with lawyer jokes, eh?


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 15, 2003)

Ia!  Ia!  PirateCathulhu, Ftagn!

Not an invocation to the Elder Gods.


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## Wraith Form (Dec 15, 2003)

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> (_in Homer voice_):  Mmmmmmmm, ranger/sorceress sandwich.



 (_in Monty Python voice_):  Dear Sirs,

 I must object to the blatant disregard the aforementioned individual has for the finer sensibilities of our readers.

 Sincerely,  Major Lethbridge-Stewart (Mrs.)


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 15, 2003)

Shouldn't this be in the Off-Topic forum?  I don't see what this has to do with D&D.

Not a Critical Threat.


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## Gez (Dec 15, 2003)

It's just that cross-forum crusades are frowned upon, dude. You don't want P-kitty to spank you, do you?

*IT IS A SPANK THREAT*


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## Wraith Form (Dec 15, 2003)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> Here's a shot I took with my new Nikon "Digital Psychic" 3000 camera.



 Actually, that's a woman under there.


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## Berandor (Dec 15, 2003)

Sorry, but I am not finding teh funny here. Even more, I feel little let down by these reactions.


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 15, 2003)

_Edit:  PC did the talking-to.  So my post is no longer needed..._


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 15, 2003)

_Edit:  Same as the previous message..._


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## Piratecat (Dec 15, 2003)

And that person has just been talked to.

So, let's review the rules.

*No board leakage from Nutkinland.

No dogpiling.*

Having an issue with this thread is very different from having an issue with the person who started it, due to issues on other boards. We're not going to tolerate ANY of the latter. The precedent that would set wouldn't be especially pleasant, and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't push the boundaries in this regard. Yeah, comments about death threats and the lawyer jokes fall under this category. If this is somehow a problem, please email me.

One thing is correct, though; this thread is definitely in the wrong forum.


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 15, 2003)

Yay P-kitty!  Now get outta here before I send the puppy after you.  I'd post up a picture of the fearsome beast but the smallest I have is almost a meg.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 15, 2003)

I don't get all these lawyer and death threat references. Maybe it would be best not to ask.


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## Piratecat (Dec 15, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Yay P-kitty!  Now get outta here before I send the puppy after you.  I'd post up a picture of the fearsome beast but the smallest I have is almost a meg.




Most image programs can shrink files for you. I'd love to see him when you can get one small enough. [/hijack]


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 15, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Most image programs can shrink files for you. I'd love to see him when you can get one small enough. [/hijack]



 Her; she's a girl.

What image programs?  I don't think I've got Photoshop or anything.


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## Umbran (Dec 15, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> What image programs?  I don't think I've got Photoshop or anything.




You doh't need something as fancy as Photoshop.  It can be done with Microsoft Photo Editor (which sits on many Microsoft Office CDs, if you don't have it installed).


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## seankreynolds (Dec 15, 2003)

Ashy said:
			
		

> And what do ya know, a pic of my dear ol' pal, Lezlie Samuel, ex-WOTC employee!




No longer an ex-employee, she's one of the marketing people for their book publishing dept (which includes RPGs).


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## der_kluge (Dec 15, 2003)

Mon Mothma: "Many kittens died to bring us these pictures..."


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## barsoomcore (Dec 16, 2003)

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> I must object to the blatant disregard the aforementioned individual has for the finer sensibilities of our readers.



 I would like to object to the proceeding objection. Many people find objections like this objectionable and I think it's really in poor taste to publish such tripe.

Thank you.

PS: Where can I get more pictures?


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 16, 2003)

Hey, how come it's okay for Leopold, Bagpuss, DM Magic, and Taren Seeker to bring over the feud from NKL?  It's been about 16 hours, and I haven't seen them edit their posts, nor seen the mods do it.

Does this mean I can put back my original comments?


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## Michael Morris (Dec 16, 2003)

Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> Hey, how come it's okay for Leopold, Bagpuss, DM Magic, and Taren Seeker to bring over the feud from NKL?  It's been about 16 hours, and I haven't seen them edit their posts, nor seen the mods do it.
> 
> Does this mean I can put back my original comments?




*Friendly Unofficial Advice:*  Govern yourself, let the mods worry about everyone else (that's their job).


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## Robbert Raets (Dec 16, 2003)

I _love_ the Elven Sorceress & Ranger!! The costumes are wonderful, and those ladies are verrrry pretty.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 16, 2003)

Robbert Raets said:
			
		

> I _love_ the Elven Sorceress & Ranger!! The costumes are wonderful, and those ladies are verrrry pretty.



yes they were. 
After i took their pics about 5 other people begged them for pics.

I bet they were tiiiiiiiired.


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## Dinkeldog (Dec 17, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Her; she's a girl.




Hmmm.  Looks like someone forgot to put the stem on the apple.  You can fix that, you know.    [/Bill Cosby]


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 17, 2003)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  Looks like someone forgot to put the stem on the apple.  You can fix that, you know.    [/Bill Cosby]



 What's frightening is that I know what you're talking about.


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## jaerdaph (Dec 17, 2003)

I just wanted to apologize for my high and mighty high horse attitude yesterday. While I know that opinions may differ on a multitude of issues, RPG-related or otherwise, I know that there isn't anyone here that isn't a decent person when you get down to the real core of what matters.

I just hope there's no hard feelings. I wish all of you nothing but the best and every happiness.


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## jaerdaph (Dec 17, 2003)

P.S. - especially to Arthur, who I still need to meet someday since we live in the same city and all


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 17, 2003)

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> P.S. - especially to Arthur, who I still need to meet someday since we live in the same city and all



I think we might have once, i dont know why I think that but we may have.

As for meeting me, the owner of Kings Games wants me to start a game to bring D&D'ers into the store (there are almost none) which should help validate buying more D&D products. (as it stands i'm prolly 20% of his buisness when you count just the RPG related stuff.)

Any saturday with advance notice is an easy thing.


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 17, 2003)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> *Friendly Unofficial Advice:* Govern yourself, let the mods worry about everyone else (that's their job).



Yeah, I know...  It's just that, as a mod himself, Leopold should know better.  Plus, not even 12 hours before, he had been warned by PC about the exact same sort of thing...  AND had promised to not do it again...

Ah, well...  Such is life...


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## Gez (Dec 17, 2003)

Leopold is not a real mod, no offense to him, but he's just in charge of what, the daemonforge forum? He's not an enforcer of the Grandma Rules.


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## KidCthulhu (Dec 17, 2003)

So when do I get to start the "Fat losers of GenCon SoCal" thread?  Or the "Ugly People of GenCon SoCal" thread? Or even "Hot Studs of GenCon SoCal"?

I appreciate that you've all been very polite in your reactions to these pictures.  No sexist commentary, no leering.  Comments on costumes mostly.  Thank you, gentlemen.

But that doesn't make this any less a sexist thread.  And do you know why?  Because of the use of the word "Babe"  Babe is a judgement.  And it's sexist.  You've posted pictures here only because of the attractiveness of the women.  In my opinion, that's sexist.  

I won't ask for the thread to be shut down, Arthur, because I suspect you'd enjoy the controversy more than the chance to show your pictures.  But this thread is unworthy of the fellowship of gamers.  Yeah, everybody likes to look at attractive members of the species.  But I have to ask, is this really the place?


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## diaglo (Dec 17, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> I won't ask for the thread to be shut down, Arthur, because I suspect you'd enjoy the controversy more than the chance to show your pictures.  But this thread is unworthy of the fellowship of gamers.  Yeah, everybody likes to look at attractive members of the species.  But I have to ask, is this really the place?




looked at ArthurQ's Gen Con Indy pics. i submitted one.  

mine was a Baggage of Gen Con pic tho.


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## KidCthulhu (Dec 17, 2003)

Ah, but pics of GenCon Indy is a very different animal, in my opinion.  That's shots of the con, things you saw, stuff that happened.  That's a different intent from a thread intended to display attractive women.  Just my opinion, of course.  I didn't think there was anything wrong with the GenCon photos threads, and enjoyed looking at people's pictures.


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## Gez (Dec 17, 2003)




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## Umbran (Dec 17, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> You've posted pictures here only because of the attractiveness of the women.  In my opinion, that's sexist.




Technically, KidCthulhu, that makes it sexual.  It is only sexist if there's a discriminatory value judgement involved.  Other than a couple of childish "sandwich" comments (which didn't come from those who posted the pics) I don't see any sign of such.

IIRC, ArthurQ has repeatedly made it clear that picutres other than his own are welcome.  Folks are free to post pictures of guys, attractive or otherwise.  Nobody seems to want to do so.  

You're within rights to ask if the mild sexual content is valid here.  But I don't think you've got grounds to call the folks who posted the pics "sexist", unless having a particular artistic sense is sexist....


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## KidCthulhu (Dec 17, 2003)

Fair enough, Umbran.  Perhaps I should have been more clear.  I find them sexist.  That doesn't mean that anyone else might.  Perhaps it might be better to say demeaning, not sexist.  I find the use of the term "babe" and "girls" and asking women to pose in attractive, flirtaceous poses is demeaning to the women in question.  That's my opinion.  

You're right, I don't have a whole lot of grounds for asking for the thread to be closed.  Nor would I, even if I had a ton of evidence.  But neither can I go without speaking my feelings.  Now I have, and we can all go back to looking a the nice ladies.

[jerry lewis voice]Oh, nice lady, with the ears all pointy, and the sharp glaven! [/jerry lewis voice]


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## Michael Morris (Dec 17, 2003)

Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> Yeah, I know...  It's just that, as a mod himself, Leopold should know better.  Plus, not even 12 hours before, he had been warned by PC about the exact same sort of thing...  AND had promised to not do it again...
> 
> Ah, well...  Such is life...




Leo is a hosted forum leader or some such.  He has purview over Daemonforge and that's it.  Similarly I have purview over Dusk.  Any mod authority he has stops there.

Now, if I want to betray the trust given me, I can use admin features sitewide - it's locked in with the ability to edit the styles.  I wish I could seperate them, but I can't.  Still, having the ability to do something and the authority are two seperate things.  The only condition under which I can close/delete a thread is the posting of porn or other somesuch nonsense guaranteed to get the perpertrator a permanent ban once P-kitty learns the details of what happened.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 17, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> Fair enough, Umbran. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I find them sexist. That doesn't mean that anyone else might. Perhaps it might be better to say demeaning, not sexist. I find the use of the term "babe" and "girls" and asking women to pose in attractive, flirtaceous poses is demeaning to the women in question. That's my opinion.
> 
> You're right, I don't have a whole lot of grounds for asking for the thread to be closed. Nor would I, even if I had a ton of evidence. But neither can I go without speaking my feelings. Now I have, and we can all go back to looking a the nice ladies.
> 
> [jerry lewis voice]Oh, nice lady, with the ears all pointy, and the sharp glaven! [/jerry lewis voice]



KidCthulu:
I was not the original person to begin Babes of Gencon.

Sean K Reynolds started it with a feature on his site dating back about 2 or 3 years. He couldnt attend Gencon Indy and I could.
Being a fan of his site I decided to take up the mantle and post Babes of Gencon here at Enworld. He was too buzy to take photos for SoCal So me and Chris from Twin Rose Software did it this time around.

If you feel that this feature/event/gallery is sexist thats fine. But there is nothing morally wrong with appreciating an attractive female, much less an attractive female in a costume, OR one that attends gaming conventions.

All of the girls are aware that the photos go in an online gallery and all of them are pointed at Enworld if they want to see it. (not that it matters to you, i'm sure it doesnt).

As for it being demeaning....



			
				www.m-w.com said:
			
		

> Main Entry: *2demean*
> Function: _transitive verb_
> Inflected Form(s): *de·meaned*; *de·mean·ing*
> Etymology: _de- + 1_mean
> ...



If the girls, ladies, women, in the pictures featured felt that being in the gallery would lower their status or reputation, or character, among their peers in anyway, they wouldnt have done it.

If you personally lost respect for them for willingly pose then maybe you dont have respect for anyone that dresses in a costume. The purpose of posing is usually to increase attention. The same goes for wearing a costume. They wear costumes to get attention at the convention. 

Is it wrong for attractive women to ask for attention at a convetion? Or anywhere else for that matter? Thats a philisiohpical and moral issue, and it has no place at Enworld, as our mods like to enforce.

Its just a photo gallery of women at gencon. Thats it.
If you dont like it, then you dont have to view it.


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## KidCthulhu (Dec 17, 2003)

To bring this discussion any further would really open a can of worms involving feminism, pornography, and a host of subjects that would get your thread closed faster than you can say Nemry.  I don't wish your thread closed, and I don't believe that you will comprehend or be convinced by any arguments I may bring to bear on the subject.  

I'll end my comments with this:  What is not demeaning to one individual can still demean the whole.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 18, 2003)

No problem, and thats fine, you're entitled to your own opinions. You're welcome to email me to discuss the above in detail however.

You are entitled to your opinion, but remebmer that its just yours, not societies as a whole.

Thanks for the civility.


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## Silver Moon (Dec 18, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> ...And do you know why?  Because of the use of the word "Babe"  Babe is a judgement.  And it's sexist.  You've posted pictures here only because of the attractiveness of the women.  In my opinion, that's sexist...But I have to ask, is this really the place?



It's not just you, I feel the same way.  In fact I had avoided this thread until I saw there was a post here by you KidCthulhu.   In my own opinion a thread about "GenCon Attendees in Costume" would be appropriate, and if the gallery had that title I would find no objection.  I just find the "Babes of..." to be more representative of a different type of audience than we normally find here at ENWorld.    Please note: I am not trying to start a flame war here.  I just thought it was important to point out that KC is not alone in her opinion.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 18, 2003)

I have no doubt she's not the only one. But Opinions are just that, Opinions, not facts.
Babe is simply a word, its being used in the context of Attractive Female Gamer.

Thats all.


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 18, 2003)

Count me in as another member who finds this thread mildly offensive instead of humorous.


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## Angcuru (Dec 18, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> To bring this discussion any further would really open a can of worms involving feminism, pornography, and a host of subjects that would get your thread closed faster than you can say Nemry.  I don't wish your thread closed, and I don't believe that you will comprehend or be convinced by any arguments I may bring to bear on the subject.



You're not alone, KC.    This discussion belongs elsewhere, not on ENWorld.  

AQ, you say that opinions are just opinions.  Perhaps it could be someone's _opinion_ that these women are not babes.  Some people may find them mildly repulsive, for one reason or another.  So, it would be their _opinion_ that these women are not babes.  _Babe_ is a relative term, an _opinion_.  By judging a woman as a babe, you state that you care only for her outer appearance, not taking her into consideration as a person.  Would you like for everyone to refer to you as *insert comment directed solely and appropriately towards AQ's bodily visuality* whenever they speak of you?  I think not.  Perhaps you should be talking about this in an alternate thread on Nutkinland, where you can balther on about whatever you wish without bothering and being bothered by anyone whose ideas may be contrary to yours.  Perhaps it is someone's _opinion_ that you do so. *points to self*

_[Paragraph deleted by moderator.  -Hyp.]_

But, that's just my perspective on the matter, I could be wrong, I have been before.


Angcuru *likes to analyze the thoughts and mental states of others* Melaroira :


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## Umbran (Dec 18, 2003)

Angcuru said:
			
		

> By judging a woman as a babe, you state that you care only for her outer appearance, not taking her into consideration as a person.




Not necessarily true, Angcuru. Don't confuse what is stated with what is thought.  The presence of only one printed word does not preclude the existance of other thoughts on the subject.  We cannot, as a practical matter, state everything we might think about a person every time we speak of them.  

The fact that ArthurQ thinks these women are "babes", for example, does not preclude the possibility that he also thinks they are brave, strong, self-assured women to not only wear costumes in public, but allow rather geekish men to take picutres and post them on a web page.  But "Self-assured, Strong, Brave, and Beautiful Women of GenCon" is a pretty clunky title.

It is also possible that ArthurQ thinks no such thing.  We ain't mind readers.  So we should perhaps not try to guess what is going on in other people's heads too much, lest in so doing we become victim to the Telepath's Malady - in which the foot becomes lodged in the mouth.  

In the end - the Powers that Be here have allowed such galleries for a couple of years now, so long as there's a certain amount of respectfulness about it all.  KidCthulhu may be right, in that what an individual finds acceptable may be demeaning to the group.  But we here at EN World are not in a position to debate who gets to decide what is demeaning to the group.  And so, it perhaps should be allowed to rest.


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 18, 2003)

Well we could _debate_ who gets to decide what is demeaning to the group, we just couldn't decide who gets to decide.

Savvy?


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 18, 2003)

Angcuru said:
			
		

> I notice...




Angcuru.  Line crossed, and you know it.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


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## Angcuru (Dec 18, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Angcuru.  Line crossed, and you know it.
> 
> -Hyp.
> (Moderator)




***



			
				Angcuru said:
			
		

> But, that's just my perspective on the matter, I could be wrong, I have been before.


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 18, 2003)

Angcuru said:
			
		

> But, that's just my perspective on the matter...




Calling it "your opinion" doesn't excuse personal sniping, and never has.

I've removed the paragraph in question.  Email me if there's anything to discuss.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


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## Buttercup (Dec 18, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> Fair enough, Umbran. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I find them sexist. That doesn't mean that anyone else might. Perhaps it might be better to say demeaning, not sexist. I find the use of the term "babe" and "girls" and asking women to pose in attractive, flirtaceous poses is demeaning to the women in question. That's my opinion.
> 
> You're right, I don't have a whole lot of grounds for asking for the thread to be closed. Nor would I, even if I had a ton of evidence. But neither can I go without speaking my feelings. Now I have, and we can all go back to looking a the nice ladies.



Thank you, Kid Cthulu, for saying these things.  This thread makes me uncomfortable for the exact same reasons.  I also find it demeaning.  But I wasn't brave enough to say anything, because I'm pretty sure no one cares what I think about it.  But it sure as hell doesn't make me feel welcome at EN World.

Now, as you were.


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 18, 2003)

It is my understanding that, when Sean Reynolds takes pictures of attractive women, he makes it clear to the subjects of the pictures that he'll be posting said pictures on the web in a gallery commemorating the event.

If a woman says no, then he doesn't take their picture.  No ifs, ands, or buts.

Whether that is true in the case of the attendees of GenCon SoCal, I don't know...


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 18, 2003)

Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> It is my understanding that, when Sean Reynolds takes pictures of attractive women, he makes it clear to the subjects of the pictures that he'll be posting said pictures on the web in a gallery commemorating the event.
> 
> If a woman says no, then he doesn't take their picture.  No ifs, ands, or buts.
> 
> Whether that is true in the case of the attendees of GenCon SoCal, I don't know...






			
				ArthurQ said:
			
		

> All of the girls are aware that the photos go in an online gallery and all of them are pointed at Enworld if they want to see it. (not that it matters to you, i'm sure it doesnt).




-Hyp.


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## Umbran (Dec 18, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Savvy?




No savvy.  I don't see how such a debate would be effectively anything other than politics, a thing we are not in a position to do around here.



			
				Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> Whether that is true in the case of the attendees of GenCon SoCal, I don't know...




I believe ArthurQ has said earlier in this thread that the case was the same for the pictures he took.


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## Piratecat (Dec 18, 2003)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> But I wasn't brave enough to say anything, because I'm pretty sure no one cares what I think about it.




Ha! Wrong-o.

So, I ask myself: if this was "Blacks of GenCon SoCal," or "Jews of GenCon SoCal," would be allow it? "Babes" is a judgmental term with a positive connotation, but it has a certain leering creepiness to it that objectifies the people in it. I'm certainly not thrilled about it.

Truth be told, I'd rather have people feel welcome here - all people - than supply eye candy. I'd be more supportive of renaming these galleries, or of someone posting such a gallery on a separate web site then linking to it in their sig. The moderators will be discussing this. If we decide to change anything, we'll let folks know.


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## Angcuru (Dec 18, 2003)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> ...I'm pretty sure no one cares what I think about it.



Now why in the world would you think that?


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 18, 2003)

I get the suspect feeling that If it wasnt Me doing these galleries that nobody would say anything negative about them.


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## Piratecat (Dec 18, 2003)

Wrong-o there, too. This isn't about you, Arthur; it's about whether or not a "Babes" thread/gallery is what we want if we're trying to avoid being a men's club. It's something we'll have to examine.


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## dream66_ (Dec 18, 2003)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> I get the suspect feeling that If it wasnt Me doing these galleries that nobody would say anything negative about them.





Well don't, I thought it was creapy when it was done the first time years ago not by you.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 18, 2003)

uhuh, right. Not buying it. That might be the case for some of the mods, but not for some of the other people posting negative comments. Relative to things they've said elsewhere that i've read I doubt they're offended by this in any way and are simply using it as an opportinuty to do something negative to me or get under my skin by claiming to be offended.

For the record there are girls who arent offended by it.
Though a certain group of people will just use this as another opportinuty to ridicule me, dare i say, djeta never took offense to the babes of gencon.

None of the girls in the photos were offended (obviously, if they were they wouldnt be in them.)


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 18, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> This isn't about you, Arthur



With regard to the mods, I believe this is true.  EN World has always been about respect and civility.  The rules have been clear, and they have been scrupulously and fairly enforced.  I may not have agreed to every ruling, but I can understand the reasoning.

With regard to many of the objections, from regular posters, to the title of this thread and the photo galleries, they have a valid complaint.  Perhaps we should expand the concept of the gallery to include "cool stuff" instead.  For example, costumes, miniatures armies, stuff like that.  (Never been to a con, so I don't know what's there...)  (Mind you, I like the look of a beautiful woman as much as any other guy...  So I give in to my genetic imperatives, hey, it's been programmed in my genes by 5M years of evolution...)

It's just sad that some of the animosity of NKL has bled through over to this thread (and others on EN World), adding some confusion as to whether people are objecting to the content of the thread/gallery or to the person who started the thread/gallery...


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 18, 2003)

In any case, I think the taint in this thread has poisoned it beyond the realm of EN World.  The gallery has been uploaded, its existence announced, and the mods have mentioned that its continued presence on EN World is under discussion.

Is there anything else to be gained by keeping this thread open?


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 18, 2003)

yes, to discuss the actual album and people presented therein.


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## Piratecat (Dec 18, 2003)

Arthur, so you understand: this isn't a case of "offended." You'd have to go pretty far to offend me. On the other hand, I'm not sure this is the kind of welcome we want to give women at this site - and I'm not sure that it speaks to the kind of inclusiveness we shoot for.

Anyways, as I said, we'll talk about it. If we decide to change our policy (or even the name of the gallery!), it won't be because we're gunning for a particular member. I gave that up in grade school.  Not that there were members in grade school. Or that I gunned for anyone, despite growing up in Vermont and owning a hunting license. But - err - you know what I mean.


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 18, 2003)

Isn't that what the comments section of the gallery is for?  I'd swear I've seen comments under some of the pictures.  (Didn't I?  I'll have to double-check...)  I'd think that's a more appropriate place to discuss the pictures, given that there would then be no confusion as to which picture you were referring...


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## Piratecat (Dec 18, 2003)

Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> It's just sad that some of the animosity of NKL has bled through over to this thread (and others on EN World), adding some confusion as to whether people are objecting to the content of the thread/gallery or to the person who started the thread/gallery...




As I've mentioned elsewhere, our tolerance for that is zero. As we take a look at this, it's taken into account.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 18, 2003)

So to be clear, I wont fight your judgement. Should you decide that "Babes" is not appropriate i'll make the albums hidden till i find a place to move the photos and their captions altogether.

I wont change the point of the album, or its name. All the pictures (and those posted with seans permission) will simply be removed and the album all together deleted.


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 18, 2003)

Just checked.  There _is_ a comment section.  Look at the gallery, everything that has a red asterisk on it has comments made.  Click on the picture and you can view the comments.

That's as valid a place to make comments as anyplace on EN World...


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 18, 2003)

The ORIGINAL point of the thread was to announce the album, there happy?

For the record, I'm not posting on Nutkinland, nor do I intend too. Someone is alting using varients of my name.


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## Piratecat (Dec 18, 2003)

That's certainly your priviledge, other than photos that you yourself didn't post. Those would have to stay put.  We can certainly discuss this later if needs be. 

In the mean time, the photo comments are perfect for discussing the pictures. I'm going to close this thread as a result.

And Arthur, if no one else has said so, it's cool to see photos from the con - even if not everyone agrees with the details. Thanks for going to the trouble.


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