# Cat Advice (very off topic)



## Retreater (May 10, 2021)

I realize this isn't necessarily about geek culture, but I know many of you probably have cats. My family has never really had pets, and I wanted to post my questions here as opposed to on other social media where I might be judged publicly.
So I've had my cat about 5 years. My ex-gf found her as a kitten on the side of the interstate. Over the years she's never really warmed up to people. She runs and hides, hisses, attacks unprovoked. She's ok with me, and about once a day comes to snuggle me.
Otherwise she destroys furniture, refuses to play with toys, she won't use beds, cat trees, etc. 
Is it possible she is a feral cat? Did we make a mistake taking her in? 
Any suggestions for her? We did get her spayed, hoping it would calm her a bit. She seems even more angry since (which was about 3 years ago). We have tried calming sprays, cat nip, leaving my clothes on beds and cat trees so she will feel more comfortable there.
I'm feeling guilty that she has a miserable life and that she's making life bad for my wife and our other pets.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 10, 2021)

Cats are what they are, and do as they please. So long as she has food and shelter I expect she is happy enough. If she wanted to live outside (some do) she would have have left by now.

At 5 years old, she is middle aged and set in her ways. A bit old for cat trees. Not all cats are affected by catnip.


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## Zardnaar (May 10, 2021)

Some cars just like that. If she was a kitten she should be socialized and you can take a feral it's just lots of work. 

 You can ask the vet about a plug in odor thing that calms them down. We bought it for our ones as the kinda tolerate each other up to a point.


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## Ath-kethin (May 10, 2021)

I had a cat once that acted much the same- we had him for almost 15 years, beginning when we brought him home from the shelter at 6 months old.

At first, you couldn't get near him at all; over time, he came to sit on the couch beside me and sleep on my bed at night. But he was never a lap cat and never seemed to really care about much of anything. Our other cat (who was a bit of a prude anyway) hated him from the moment he came home until the moment she died, some 12 years later.

You could consider getting a second cat - counterintuitively, two cats tend to be less destructive than one - but like anything with cats, its a crapshoot. It might work and it might not.

Did you make a mistake bringing her in off the highway? Not from your cat's perspective, for sure.


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## R_J_K75 (May 10, 2021)

I had a cat that hated everyone but me.  She hissed and attacked anyone who came near or tried to pet her.  She rarely ever even came to me, she'd sit next to me and just stare at you motionless for hours.  Another of my cats is very skiddish and is easily scared, she doesn't necessarily hide but shes somewhat antisocial.  Even my third cat is very outgoing, and just within the last two years started talking. After he was a kitten a few months after I got him he didnt make a peep for about 5 years.  After I had to have my first cat put down about 3 years ago I noticed the dynamic between the two remaining cats changed.  Cats are odd and Ive noticed with mine at least their personality changes over time and if somethings really wrong with your cat if you spend even a little time with them every day, they will let you know when something is wrong.


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## meltdownpass (May 10, 2021)

I have a stray-adoptee and if she doesn't get proper play & exercise she can be very disruptive and destructive. Does yours have an interested in The Outdoors? Mine constantly is poking her head out the window and I started actually putting her on a leash and walking her around outside. Eventually she became acclimated enough that I let her roam a bit by herself, although always supervised since I'm in a more trafficked-than-I'd-like area.
If she's able to get a good amount of human-sponsored playtime or outdoors exploration, most of the behavior problems disappear.


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## AOieiosle (May 10, 2021)

You didn't make a mistake in giving any animal a safe home. Unfortunately animals aren't here to reciprocate your love. It's nice when they do, but they don't live by a disney feel-good-movie script. Cats have big personalities, which means sometimes they're _big_ in a way you don't want.

I've always had cats, and they're more like family members than pets. They're loners or friendly or destructive or funny. My oldest cat, now 15, was a loud-meowing terror. But in the last few years he's lost weight and only wants to be near people or in a warm lap.

You can try allowing the cat to freely go outside if it's possible in your area. You can try and reach out and find relocation for a feral cat, or a cat that's causing too much harm in the home.


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## monsmord (May 10, 2021)

Are you familiar with Jackson Galaxy, or his show "My Cat From Hell?" (He was on the cable channel Animal Planet, but the show might be syndicated elsewhere.) He's a "cat whisperer." If you can, check him out for some terrific advice on socializing your cat and creating a space in which it feels safe and happy. It means effort, attention, and patience on your part, and willingness to adapt, so you need to be invested in the process, whatever it is. There are also some decent videos on YouTube (like this for gaining trust, or this for shy/scared cats, and lots more.) Contrary to some popular opinion, cat behavior isn't a matter of "a cat is this inscrutable monolithic thing and that's just the way it is, just give them food and water." They aren't goldfish, and don't benefit much from simply being ignored. Nor are they automatically "feral," though the longer they live ferally the lower the odds of socializing them. Jackson's show and similar videos provide great insight into what cats may want, the clues they're giving, and how to make them feel secure and confident in the space they share with you. There's a small chance the cat has a neurological problem or mood disorder that would benefit from medication, but this should be a last resort and should only be pursued upon the advice of a vet. Maybe there's even a behaviorist nearby?

I'm no "whisperer," but have had and cared for many cats. They have different personalities; some are braver or more curious, some are more reserved or cantankerous. Some like laps and "scritchies," others less so. I've moved with cats, and seen them change as they try to adapt to new surroundings, and to new neighbors or new pets in the house; cats that went from hiding under a bed every time the doorbell rang to perking up and trotting to the door with their tails in the air. The behavior you describe suggests an extremely unhappy cat, and that won't improve unless you make changes, first by figuring out what's bugging it. Until you know what its problems are, bringing another animal into its space - whether another cat or a dog, etc. - will almost certainly make things worse for one or both.

If in the end you don't believe you can create the shared environment where the cat can thrive, maybe chat with a shelter or otherwise adopt it out. Be clear about your experience so that only someone able to take on such a challenge will be interested; giving it to someone who thinks the cat just needs food and a window isn't going to make the cat any happier.

But no, bringing it in off the highway was definitely the right choice.


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## Retreater (May 10, 2021)

meltdownpass said:


> Does yours have an interested in The Outdoors? Mine constantly is poking her head out the window and I started actually putting her on a leash and walking her around outside.



She'll look out the window, especially if there's a bird or other critter nearby. She has stepped outside only twice in five years and didn't seem to like it. Once the dog was brave and led her back inside.
The dogs are very needy with attention, so the cat doesn't get the attention she probably needs. But it's hard when she just yells, hisses, and claws when you try to show her affection. 
My wife is allergic, which makes it difficult for them to bond, but I am trying to give the cat a happy life. She gets most of her attention when I'm on the computer (which has been pretty frequent the past year).


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## Dioltach (May 10, 2021)

There are hormone sprays, diffusers and collars you can try. Less intrusive (from the cat's perspective) are matatabi sticks and catnip sprays. You can even get calming catfood. Try a couple of these, see what works and what doesn't.


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## Umbran (May 10, 2021)

So, my wife is a veterinarian...

Do not go to the internet for advice.  Do not go to television.  Do not go to your pet groomer, or some dude at a pet store.  Go to _your veterinarian_.

There's several different possible reasons for problems like you describe - some of them are biological, and can be diagnosed and treated.  Others are environmental, and many of those can be managed too.  Some of them may be in your own habits, or those of your other animals.  All of them will take some work.

But no, 5 years old is not "set in their ways" or otherwise unable to change.  Nor, by the way, it is too old for trees or toys for a healthy cat.

What you are describing does not sound like a happy animal - while diagnosis over the internet is not possible, the cat sounds terrified.  That may be from the dogs, or your family - if you play with a cat like you do a dog, the cat _will not like it_.  I suggest you speak to a professional veterinarian who can examine your pet, or a board-certified behaviorist (who is a veterinarian with even more training).


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## Umbran (May 10, 2021)

monsmord said:


> He's a "cat whisperer."




So.... that's not really a thing.  That's marketing, for a TV show, where they get to cherry-pick cases, and edit and show you only the good bits where everything goes super-smoothly.  Dog whisperer, cat whisperer, horse whisperer - all hogwash.

Jackson Galaxy is not a qualified behavioralist.  His techniques are highly questionable, and his products... well, "snake oil" is a term I've personally heard more than one veterinarian use.


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## monsmord (May 10, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So.... that's not really a thing.  That's marketing, for a TV show, where they get to cherry-pick cases, and edit and show you only the good bits where everything goes super-smoothly.  Dog whisperer, cat whisperer, horse whisperer - all hogwash.
> 
> Jackson Galaxy is not a qualified behavioralist.  His techniques are highly questionable, and his products... well, "snake oil" is a term I've personally heard more than one veterinarian use.




WHOA! I mean "cat whisperer" in quotes for a reason (but a hard disagree on the phenomenon being "hogwash," as reaching animals on animal terms does seem to be a thing, with the necessary study), and I've completely forgotten about his adding a line of sponsored products to the later seasons (forgotten for a reason), but his behaviorist-ism is suspect? This is news to me, and weird, as his (televised) advice jives with my personal cat experience (I didn't run across him until after my last cat ownership). And it's... well, potentially heart-breaking. I mean, I don't know the guy or owe him money or anything, I just like watching cats become happier. Imma gonna dig into this. Thanks for the heads up.


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## Tonguez (May 10, 2021)

cats are terrible people, highly strung and often stressed out so that spitting and hissing and being socially aloof except for that one sucker who willingly indulges them is typical.  It does sound like its been traumatised though, address that and even feral cats can become less stressed (although no less terrible)


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## Umbran (May 10, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> cats are terrible people




So, the real thing is... they aren't _PEOPLE_.  Nor are they dogs.  



Tonguez said:


> highly strung and often stressed out so that spitting and hissing and being socially aloof except for that one sucker who willingly indulges them is typical.




So, here's the thing - with rare exceptions, cats are not naturally stressed out.  Spitting, hissing, and scratching are not "just how they are".  Those are things that happen _because of their environment_.  Cats can and will be relaxed and affectionate, if there aren't things around freaking them out.

So, if your cat is stressy, maybe you should ask what's freaking your cat out.


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## DrunkonDuty (May 11, 2021)

What Umbran said. Something(s) is(are) making your cat unhappy. You have to work out what it is and make changes. Ask your vet.

I've had a lot of cats over my life (my family are big time animal lovers) and the only time I've seen a cat act like that is when they've been scared. We once adopted a pair of feral kittens. They basically lived in a box in my folks room for a month. Hissed at anything that came near. We didn't push them or rush them. We just fed them and gave them space and quiet. Slowly but surely they came to trust us. They lived long, happy and social lives.

There's every chance you and your cat can work out the differences and settle down to a happy relationship.


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## Imaculata (May 11, 2021)

Cat trees are not for every cat. My cat happens to like climbing and high places, so it is unsurprising that he likes a cat tree. But your cat might be different. The hissing is not normal. No matter how old and traumatized, a cat can change their ways and start to feel comfortable at a new home. But does he feel like your house is his territory? Or does he have to share it with other animals?


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## Retreater (May 11, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Cat trees are not for every cat. My cat happens to like climbing and high places, so it is unsurprising that he likes a cat tree. But your cat might be different. The hissing is not normal. No matter how old and traumatized, a cat can change their ways and start to feel comfortable at a new home. But does he feel like your house is his territory? Or does he have to share it with other animals?



The hissing is when others come to the house. She mostly just meows (sometimes loudly) at my wife and me. She likes scratching furniture when I come home from work. She hates being taken to the vet (or anywhere for that matter), so I'm not sure if the vet will be able to get a fair view of her behavior.


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## Dave Goff (May 11, 2021)

+1  on checking with a vet. My wife had a cat when I met her that was vicious, like left scars on people. He also had urinary tract issues and was in pain a lot of the time. After we got together we got him on a better diet and the stones stopped being an issue, and he ended up being a loving wonderful sweetie. That was at 8 or 9.
Also, I don't think 6 is middle-aged at all. That cat lived to be 21. My other two cats that passed in the last decade were 19 and 20. To me, 6 seems awfully young and no, their personalities are definitely not set in stone.


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## Tonguez (May 11, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, the real thing is... they aren't _PEOPLE_.  Nor are they dogs.
> .



SO you agree with me then 

My post was tongue-in-cheek predicated on the fact that Cats are terrible _People (they are however great Cats) . _

The stress comes from interacting in an environment designed for People in a Human manner that doesnt account for the nature of Cats


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## Umbran (May 11, 2021)

Now that I have a bit of time, I can do more than say, "Don't listen to that!"  I can offer resources...





__





						For Cat Owners | Indoor Pet Initiative
					






					indoorpet.osu.edu
				




The Indoor Pet Initiative, from the Ohio State University College of Veterinary Medicine gives some useful starting thoughts, including some primers on cat behavior and needs.


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## Umbran (May 11, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> SO you agree with me then
> 
> My post was tongue-in-cheek




Sorry.  Plain text doesn't carry that in a reliable manner.


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## Umbran (May 11, 2021)

Retreater said:


> The hissing is when others come to the house.




Yeah, strange people can freak a cat out.  Imagine being a small furry critter, and in come these huge things with their stomping feet and loud voices... 

Do you or your guests force the cat to interact when there are strangers around?  If someone roughly ruffles her fur when she doesn't want it, and she hisses and scratches that is _NOT_ unprovoked, from her point of view.  Does the cat have a quite place in the house to retreat to? 

Do you keep her nails trimmed?



Retreater said:


> She mostly just meows (sometimes loudly) at my wife and me.




So... you were concerned that your cat might be feral.  Meowing at people is not feral cat behavior.  Cats don't meow much in the wild.  Adult cats do vocalize at each other, but they usually don't meow.  Meowing is more typically a behavior between a kitten and its parent.  Domestic cats meow to get your attention, like they'd meow at their mom when they were kittens.  It is totally normal - some breeds are extremely vocal.



Retreater said:


> She likes scratching furniture when I come home from work.




Cats absolutely need to scratch.  It is how they keep claws healthy, provides muscular stretching, and is part of basic scent-marking behavior.  So... what non-furniture surfaces do you have for your cat?  Where are they placed?

The timing may or may not be interesting - she may simply tend to wake up from a nap when you come home, and it is just part of routine.  But, there may be other things - scratching can be part of stress relief.  Do your dogs get very active when you come home?  That may make it loud and chaotic in the home, and the cat may be scratching to relieve the stress that generates - a physical way to blow off steam, if you will.



Retreater said:


> She hates being taken to the vet (or anywhere for that matter), so I'm not sure if the vet will be able to get a fair view of her behavior.




If you thought dogs are territorial, they have nothing on cats.  They don't usually like going out and about from their territories like your dog may.  Plus, the vet's office smells of _every other animal_ that's been through, and many of them are unwell, or scared.  So, big stressor, there.  Lots of cats hate going to the vet.

So, you make a great point, for which there's a solution - get a house-call vet.  They exist.  They cost a bit more, but they may be a good option for you to get someone to come in an see her home environment, and her behavior in it.


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## Umbran (May 11, 2021)

A few other things to consider about your cat's overall stress level...

How often do you clean the litterbox?  Is the litterbox in a quiet place where the dogs won't bug her while she's at her business?  Where is her food left for her?  Some place where people and dogs aren't rushing around?

You say she doesn't play with toys.  What toy options do you offer?

You say she doesn't like cat trees.  What kinds have you tried, and where have you put them?  What interactions happen on or near the tree?


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## Umbran (May 11, 2021)

My wife notes:  Also, if your cat has a behavior that concerns you that your vet can't see in the office, if you have a smartphone, you can take a video of it when you are home, and show your vet.


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## Zardnaar (May 11, 2021)

I haven't had a kitten since 1989. 

  All mine tend to be affectionate. Current ones came from SPCA. Basically we went to the animal shelter and adopted the friendliest ones not the cutest. 

 Mooch 1 thinks he is part dog. Loves pats from strangers and the kids next door. I've seen him chase old ladies down the road for pats and scrounge pats from teenage girls up the road. 

 Mooch 2 is adorable. She loves laps and getting into bed with you. Very needy but hesitant around strangers at first.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 11, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, the real thing is... they aren't _PEOPLE_.



Cats aren't _humans_. The rest depends on how you define "people". But the do have this in common with humans: they are all different.


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## Dioltach (May 11, 2021)

Of course cats aren't humans. You need to live a thousand lives as a saint before you reincarnate as a cat.


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## AnotherGuy (May 11, 2021)

Retreater said:


> I realize this isn't necessarily about geek culture, but I know many of you probably have cats. My family has never really had pets, and I wanted to post my questions here as opposed to on other social media where I might be judged publicly.
> So I've had my cat about 5 years. My ex-gf found her as a kitten on the side of the interstate. Over the years she's never really warmed up to people. She runs and hides, hisses, attacks unprovoked. She's ok with me, and about once a day comes to snuggle me.
> Otherwise she destroys furniture, refuses to play with toys, she won't use beds, cat trees, etc.
> Is it possible she is a feral cat? Did we make a mistake taking her in?
> ...



My wife and I took on a rescue from a shelter just 2.5 years ago. Apparently she had had 3-4 homes before us and she was only 2 years old. She was extremely skittish and would hide under the bed. So for just over 3+ weeks I slept separate to my wife in the spare bedroom where the cat lay under the bed. I would talk to her or just sit and work on the laptop, until I eventually fell asleep. In the middle of the night she would creep out from under the bed and find a place next to me to sleep. This eventually became routine until she finally let me stroke her and wasn't as afraid anymore. It was a process. When I moved to our bedroom - she would then follow me there because she had grown accustomed to sleeping next to me. We had one older cat in all this and no kids (so this may play a role).

Fast forward to today, she is still skittish but now seeks out human companionship, mine predominantly but has warmed to my wife and even my mother when she visits. We can hold her for half a minute or so before she wants to be put down.

What I'm worried about in your situation is that years have gone by and her personality may have cemented. If I were you I would at night try my technique. Close the door with you and her in a room alone - have all the necessary (water bowl, food, litter tray) and just go to sleep. It will force her to mingle with you. Don't tease or irritate her and use a calm voice. She needs to build trust with someone.

It's work, but well worth it!


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## S'mon (May 11, 2021)

In Britain we almost all let cats go outside. Sometimes they get killed, but they always seem a lot happier than any kept-indoors cat I've ever seen. Cats seem to really value being able to come and go as they please.


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## Umbran (May 11, 2021)

S'mon said:


> In Britain we almost all let cats go outside. Sometimes they get killed, but they always seem a lot happier than any kept-indoors cat I've ever seen.




With respect, veterinarians don't generally buy that argument any more.

The average lifespan for an outdoor cat is 2 to 5 years in the US.  An indoor cat will live 13 to 17 years on average.  The outdoors is laden with parasites, disease, poisons, and injury from a variety of sources. In addition, owners of indoor cats are much more likely to _see_ health problems developing early, and get them treated.

There is a romanticized view of the domestic cat as a wild animal, with "needs".  They are no longer wild animals.  They are domesticated.  If you are spending a minimum of effort to make the indoors a good home for the cat, it will be plenty happy, and live in that happiness on average 3x as long.


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## meltdownpass (May 11, 2021)

Realistically this is a moral question which leans heavily on your weighing of highly debateable terms like domesticated and Good. The appeal to authority doesn't bring anything useful to the discussion, and it seems unlikely to resolve philosophical questions that've been around for thousands of years.


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## Umbran (May 11, 2021)

meltdownpass said:


> Realistically this is a moral question which leans heavily on your weighing of highly debateable terms like domesticated and Good. The appeal to authority doesn't bring anything useful to the discussion, and it seems unlikely to resolve philosophical questions that've been around for thousands of years.




I think you misunderstand "appeal to authority".  

Appeal to authority is when you take the word of an authority figure _because they are an authority figure_.  This is not the same as taking the word of an authority figure _because they have studied the issue_ and thus have information you do not.

Each of is merely human.  We do not have enough hours in our lives to study all subjects.  This is why we specialize in various areas - so that we can have access to skills and information we ourselves cannot build in our lifetime.  If you really want to call this a moral question, then how moral can it be to make judgements on the welfare of another living being when with no expertise or significant rigorous study in that welfare?


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## Nellisir (May 11, 2021)

I've only got a moment, but basically, everything Umbran has said.

Cats are HIGHLY variable. My gf has 4. My best friend (a vet) currently has 4 (she's had up to 6 at a time). I have 2 at the moment. They are ALL different. Mine are SUPER-social & friendly with me, and slightly social and friendly with other people. My gf's are all over the place. My friend's are likewise (and hers currently include two ex-feral cats).

Couple notes: 

Your cat sounds a bit stressed and generally anti-social. Not at all feral. Some cats be like that.
You've got a wife and dog(s?). Cats often have a favorite person. My cats with me are basically like dogs. They follow me around CONSTANTLY. If I'm there, they're there. But if she's meowing at your wife, that's a big plus. That's kitten to adult behavior.
Cats have texture preferences. If she's not going for the climbing tree, try other products. Mine really like the roughness of sisal or jute rope. They're iffy on cardboard. They love my office chair fabric, for some reason, which actually appears able to take it. They also love my sofa, which can't.


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## Nellisir (May 11, 2021)

Also, outdoor cats slaughter huge numbers of birds. Immense numbers. It's insane. And I've lost a cat to HPV, and another to a car, and most of the neighborhood cats are gone now because of the local foxes. One got nailed in our driveway last fall. I interrupted but the cat (a really BIG mean old neutered tomcat) didn't survive.


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## meltdownpass (May 11, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I think you misunderstand "appeal to authority".
> 
> Appeal to authority is when you take the word of an authority figure _because they are an authority figure_.  This is not the same as taking the word of an authority figure _because they have studied the issue_ and thus have information you do not.



I understand the appeal to authority perfectly fine. The point you're making is that because veterinarians study the biology of animals, that they are therefore authorities on ethical & moral matters. This does not follow.

It's certainly worth thinking about these issues and reading wisdom & philosophy to develop your own moral framework to inform your views of how you act in the world, and how your actions impact other beings. However it's not demonstrable to say that one or another approach is better in an objective sense, nor that there's any way we could determine "authority" in these matters.

Those who are wealthy in European or European-diaspora communities _probably _err on the side of keeping their pets safe. I know I do. That being said, we shouldn't gloss over that our fuzzy math of X quality of life and Y years comes from a particular moral framework that not everyone shares, and for good reason. Ultimately the relationship between a cat and its human companion is something that needs to be negotiated between them and I don't think it's altogether helpful to try to suggest any one solution is best.


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## Zardnaar (May 11, 2021)

In NZ cats outside is kind of the default. 

 Nothing dangerous in terms of wildlife. 

 List two to cars over the years, one got sick from fighting but he had preexisting renal problems. 

 Current motley pair we have had 10 years. Not sure how old they are SPCA said 1-2. They were young when we got them. 

 Declawing is regarded as cruel here and not letting your cat out is regarded as unusual. Declawing is illegal as well.

 One was a good hunter but mostly got introduced birds anyway the rare natives are no where close. He doesn't catch much now but he depopulated the neighbors mouse nest.


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## DrunkonDuty (May 12, 2021)

In Oz outdoor cats is the default too.

But it shouldn't be. 

There's the additional dangers to the cat as folks have listed above. 

There's also the predation on local species. It's a big problem here in Australia. @Zardnaar, do you think the reason the native species aren't anywhere nearby might be predation by cats?


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## Nellisir (May 12, 2021)

DrunkonDuty said:


> In Oz outdoor cats is the default too.
> 
> But it shouldn't be.
> 
> ...







__





						The damage cats do | The Morgan Foundation
					





					morganfoundation.org.nz


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## Zardnaar (May 12, 2021)

DrunkonDuty said:


> In Oz outdoor cats is the default too.
> 
> But it shouldn't be.
> 
> ...




 I don't live near the endangered species. If I did cats are indoors. 

 The feral get shot, trapped etc. The only native the cat gets is fantails and they're common enough.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 12, 2021)

S'mon said:


> In Britain we almost all let cats go outside. Sometimes they get killed, but they always seem a lot happier than any kept-indoors cat I've ever seen. Cats seem to really value being able to come and go as they please.



Britain has few creatures that would predate cats (my cats beat up foxes, although I have heard of badgers killing over-curious cats) and the horse has bolted with respect to protecting endangered species from predation (and interbreeding with wildcats).

Obviously, from the cat's PoV being an outdoor cat is great (very important that it is neutered!).


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## Imaculata (May 12, 2021)

People often buy expensive cat towers, without checking if a cat wants one, and then they are dismayed that the cat ignores it.

Does your cat like climbing and high places? Cat tower!

Does your cat prefer small spaces at ground level instead? Get her those.

As for hissing at strangers, that is not uncommon. My cat put up a thick tail and arched back when I had loud repairmen visit my house. Cats can get stressed by loud sounds and strangers.

But even traumatized cats can change their ways. Someone I know, got a cat from the local animal shelter. They warned him the cat was very unsocial. But in his hands the cat was like a baby. While the cat never warmed up to his wife, it would sit on his shoulders all the time. Cat can be very picky who they trust.

But often they favor quiet gentle people who leave them alone and don't try to touch them or pick them up all the time.

Don't worry. Your cat can change his ways.


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## Imaculata (May 12, 2021)

Retreater said:


> The hissing is when others come to the house. She mostly just meows (sometimes loudly) at my wife and me. She likes scratching furniture when I come home from work. She hates being taken to the vet (or anywhere for that matter), so I'm not sure if the vet will be able to get a fair view of her behavior.



Most cats hate being taken to the Vet. The meowing is a good sign though. It communicates with you both.

Scratching can relief stress, but cats can also do it to get your attention, or because it is part of a daily ritual. Cats are creatures of habit. Cats need to scratch to get rid of the old layers on top of their nails. It keeps their nails sharp, but they probably do it because it feels nice. Giving your cat a place to scratch is important.

A friend of mine tried to teach her cat to use the scratching post, by rewarding it with food. Now the cat scratches to indicate it wants food.  

So that kind of backfired...


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## Retreater (May 12, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Most cats hate being taken to the Vet. The meowing is a good sign though. It communicates with you both.
> 
> Scratching can relief stress, but cats can also do it to get your attention, or because it is part of a daily ritual. Cats are creatures of habit. Cats need to scratch to get rid of the old layers on top of their nails. It keeps their nails sharp, but they probably do it because it feels nice. Giving your cat a place to scratch is important.
> 
> ...



She has several dedicated scratching places, from a cat tree (with small boxes to sit in at various heights - including ground level) to a little ramp. She doesn't use those, however, only furniture. Putting treats there go ignored, same thing with using scents and putting my clothes on them to make her feel calm. 
It's not so much that she's a disturbance to me. I'm more concerned that she's unhappy or stressed, and I want to make sure she has a good life.


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## Nellisir (May 12, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> my cats beat up foxes



Having witnessed a 25 lb fox have a knock-down, drag-out screaming fight with a 20 lb fightin' mad tomcat, I'll tell you this is true until it isn't. The fox didn't get its dinner (because I came out hollering), but the cat got severe internal injuries and died 12 hours later.

That was the last real stray around here; the foxes had cleared out the rest earlier.

That fox was PISSED, btw. I had to guard the cat for 45 minutes until the owner came to get it out from under our shed. The fox stayed in sight the whole time and screamed at me.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 12, 2021)

Nellisir said:


> Having witnessed a 25 lb fox have a knock-down, drag-out screaming fight with a 20 lb fightin' mad tomcat, I'll tell you this is true until it isn't. The fox didn't get its dinner (because I came out hollering), but the cat got severe internal injuries and died 12 hours later.
> 
> That was the last real stray around here; the foxes had cleared out the rest earlier.
> 
> That fox was PISSED, btw. I had to guard the cat for 45 minutes until the owner came to get it out from under our shed. The fox stayed in sight the whole time and screamed at me.



Foxes can and do kill cats, but if they are familiar with each other they learn to get along, pretty much the same as cats and dogs.

In your case, it sounds like a fight over territory, rather than predation (although that happens sometimes too). Another reason to have domestic cats neutered (Tomcats kill each other sometimes too).


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## The Green Hermit (May 12, 2021)

Retreater said:


> She has several dedicated scratching places, from a cat tree (with small boxes to sit in at various heights - including ground level) to a little ramp. She doesn't use those, however, only furniture. Putting treats there go ignored, same thing with using scents and putting my clothes on them to make her feel calm.
> It's not so much that she's a disturbance to me. I'm more concerned that she's unhappy or stressed, and I want to make sure she has a good life.



Have you tried putting sticky tape on the furniture along with moving her scratching posts next to the furniture she likes to scratch up the most?


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## Zardnaar (May 12, 2021)

Cats don't generally go out of their way to kill other cats unlike dog or fox messing up a cat.b

 Their fights are mostly loud and for show. 

 Infections from bites etc however can kill them later. 

 Normally the loser runs away with ripped ears or whatever. 

 20 pounds is also a big cat. It's the old size does matter pound for pound a cat going at it is nasty but if something's two or three times it's size..... Dying from injuries go up a lot. 

 We had a vicious little moggy. Total mooch with us but he was very territorial. That was the one with kidney problems which ended up killing him via infections. 

 Our houses aren't really indoor cat friendly though and the culture and sections tend to be more outdoor based than USA.


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## Imaculata (May 12, 2021)

Retreater said:


> It's not so much that she's a disturbance to me. I'm more concerned that she's unhappy or stressed, and I want to make sure she has a good life.




Does she ever fall asleep when in the same room as you, or just lie down? 

Does she play with cat toys at all?

Cats need to feel safe to lie down and sleep. A cat stretched out and dreaming is a sign of a cat that feels secure enough to do so.

Playing is also a sign of happyness. Young cats are more prone to playing, but even elderly cats like to play. The type of cat toys they prefer differs per cat.

My male cat Spyro likes playing with a bright rubbery ball that he can chew on. He likes carrying it in his mouth and kicking it through the house. He also likes toy mice occasionally. But it doesn't seem important to him that it resembles prey.

Oddly enough, he likes to play hide and seek the most. I've never seen a cat before that likes this type of play, unless it is with another cat.


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## Retreater (May 12, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Does she ever fall asleep when in the same room as you, or just lie down?



Yes. On the footstool or sometimes even on me.



Imaculata said:


> Does she play with cat toys at all?



No. Not a one. I've tried balls, laser pointers, dangly things, etc.


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## Imaculata (May 12, 2021)

Retreater said:


> Yes. On the footstool or sometimes even on me.




That is a very good sign. It means your cat is happy and feels safe.

Don't worry about the lack of playing. Not all cats are used to it. Playing often needs to be encouraged from when they are young, and even then cats can have very diverse personalities. Some just don't do it.

Having to share the same house with other pets can sometimes cause stress, and make a cat feel like the house isn't their territory. Especially when there are dogs or other cats.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 13, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Cats don't generally go out of their way to kill other cats unlike dog or fox messing up a cat.



It still happens though, we had a female cat die after being raped by an unneutered tom. Dogs and foxes (and badgers) aren't usually trying to kill either - they just want to show the cat who is boss. Death is a consequence of the massive power differential. Given the way I've seen our cats treat foxes I'm surprised they are still alive.

Strangest thing: we once had a young cat, about a year old, and I saw it _playing_ with fox cubs!


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## Paul Farquhar (May 13, 2021)

Retreater said:


> No. Not a one. I've tried balls, laser pointers, dangly things, etc.



Cats learn to play with toys as kittens. In nature, mummy cat teaches kittens to hunt. Domestic kittens need to be taught how to play with toys. Some of the behaviour is natural, some learned. If a kitten isn't played with much it may not show much interest in toys when it is an adult. You might try her with a real mouse.

If a kitten isn't interested in toys, or an older cat suddenly gives up on toys, then I would be worried.


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## Umbran (May 13, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> You might try her with a real mouse.




That isnt' much fun for the mouse, you know.  It s more claws, teeth, bleeding, and death.  Not exactly a humane approach to toys.

Plus, if the cat isn't really a hunter, you _will_ have a mouse loose in your house.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 13, 2021)

Umbran said:


> That isnt' much fun for the mouse, you know.  It s more claws, teeth, bleeding, and death.  Not exactly a humane approach to toys.
> 
> Plus, if the cat isn't really a hunter, you _will_ have a mouse loose in your house.



Sure, there is that to consider. But we have meeses around here anyway, I wouldn't go to a petshop for one. Although you can get them as live food for snakes.


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## Umbran (May 13, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Although you can get them as live food for snakes.




Yes, but you can also get humanely killed and frozen mice as live food for snakes.  And you should only live-feed if that's the only way your snake will eat.  Because live-feeding is cruel to the mouse ( I mean, it does get eaten, and that's not fun), and also because one of the biggest issues for pet snakes is infection after injury by live food - that mouse is apt to defend itself, wound the snake, and that wound can get infected.


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## R_J_K75 (May 13, 2021)

I never seen a black cat with so much brown in her.  Now this is the skiddish one, and I was offhandely sininging Gloria Gaynors "I Will Survive" she comes tearing down the stairs and jumps on my lap and we rock out.  Then I thought Cake does a great rendition too.  For your listening pleasure.


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## Nellisir (May 14, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Foxes can and do kill cats, but if they are familiar with each other they learn to get along, pretty much the same as cats and dogs.
> 
> In your case, it sounds like a fight over territory, rather than predation (although that happens sometimes too). Another reason to have domestic cats neutered (Tomcats kill each other sometimes too).



OK, I used the word "tomcat" because it was 20lbs of angry male cat, but it was neutered. The owner is a veterinarian; he takes in unadoptable strays as barn cats. 

I'm not sure where you live, but foxes around here absolutely prey on cats. It's not Disneyworld. They went on a binge last year; got most of his barn cats, plus the guinea hens (yet again...he wasn't amused by my observation that he seemed to just be buying mobile fox food at this point), and possibly a few other critters. I wasn't really keeping track; he's got a lot of animals. 

Whether or not a dog will "intend" to kill a cat depends a lot on the dog breed. I had a 30-lb dog bred for hunting small game; if it was small and fast-moving, she would kill it without thinking. Massively hardwired instincts. I worked her hard on control (we did agility and obedience for several years) but was always careful to keep her leashed outside the yard (which was fenced). The angriest she ever got at me was when I took a dead groundhog away from her... (and no, she didn't do anything. Just dirty looks and two days of sulking.)

P-O'ed fox in middle of picture. I'm maybe...80 feet away? It hung out there for another 20 minutes.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 14, 2021)

Nellisir said:


> I'm not sure where you live, but foxes around here absolutely prey on cats.



Surrey. I would describe our urban foxes as semi-domesticated. It's a survival trait. If they went round eating cats the humans would soon finish them off.


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## R_J_K75 (May 16, 2021)

Thread title is "Cat Advice" so I guess this question is appropriate.  

I have 2 indoor cats and use a topical medication to prevent them from getting fleas.  I use Bravecto which lasts 12 weeks. The only way I can get it on them is to get them sitting next to me and quickly lightly grab them by the scruff and hold them down long enough to dose them.  They seem to know when Im about to do it, I think they can smell it because I open it before I try.  Usually I can only get one at a time, then have to wait another couple days to get the other.  I cant give them flea baths, and flea collars would be just as hard if not harder to get on them.  The topical is all that worked to prevent and get rid of fleas so Im not interested in changing products. As much as I feel bad putting them through the stress of putting it on them, and theyre only pissed at me for a few hours the alternative of having fleas is way worse.  

Anyone have any suggestion for a less stressful/easier method of putting the medicine on them, what method do you use?


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## Umbran (May 16, 2021)

R_J_K75 said:


> Anyone have any suggestion for a less stressful/easier method of putting the medicine on them, what method do you use?




From my wife the veterinarian:

In general, the more you try to pin down a cat, the more they'll struggle.  So, the less force that can be used, the better.  Are your cats not big on touch in general, or are they pretty physically friendly most of the time, and this is the only time they run?

If they can smell it open beforehand, get a co-conspirator to help you.  You get the cat settled in with you, and they open the tube and hand it to you.

Can you try to get them while they are asleep?


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## R_J_K75 (May 16, 2021)

Umbran said:


> From my wife the veterinarian:
> 
> In general, the more you try to pin down a cat, the more they'll struggle.  So, the less force that can be used, the better.  Are your cats not big on touch in general, or are they pretty physically friendly most of the time, and this is the only time they run?
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply.  They will come sit on my lap, one lets me pick him up, while the other doesn't. They both let me pet them.  Relatively speaking they are both friendly. I live alone and aren't afraid when I have one or two visitors but I think having someone else help will only give them more reason to know somethings up.  Usually if Im quick enough they struggle very little, if they do I let them go.  Next time I'm going to try and get them in a more relaxed situation as you suggested and see how that goes.  Thanks again to you and your wife I will definitely take the advice into consideration.


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## The Green Hermit (May 27, 2021)

Umbran said:


> That isnt' much fun for the mouse, you know.  It s more claws, teeth, bleeding, and death.  Not exactly a humane approach to toys.
> 
> Plus, if the cat isn't really a hunter, you _will_ have a mouse loose in your house.



We had a rat in our pantry once. My daughter quickly threw our oldest cat in there. She just sat there and said, "You don't have feathers, so we can coexist." Lol!


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## Paul Farquhar (May 27, 2021)

The Green Hermit said:


> We had a rat in our pantry once. My daughter quickly threw our oldest cat in there. She just sat there and said, "You don't have feathers, so we can coexist." Lol!



I think rats are too big for most domestic cats. Mine run a mile if they see one. You really need a feral/farm cat that has been taught by it's mother if you want a ratter. Or get a terrier. Round here it is the foxes that predate rats and squirrels.


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## Umbran (May 27, 2021)

The Green Hermit said:


> We had a rat in our pantry once. My daughter quickly threw our oldest cat in there. She just sat there and said, "You don't have feathers, so we can coexist." Lol!




Yeah.  Many rats are a bit large for cats to take on.  Plus, each cat definitely has its preferred prey.  Back when I was a kid, we had one cat who took on the rodents and small ground game, and another that tok on the birds.  Both were very good at what they did, which was odd, because their mother couldn't hunt to save her life, as far as we could tell.  Or maybe, once she had kids it was, "Okay, now I don't have to do this, you can handle that job," and took more naps.


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## R_J_K75 (May 27, 2021)

@The Green Hermit 

Funny I was just thinking about this thread and I open my computer and I saw your reaction.  

I just bought a set of these for my 2 cats, they're funny, dummys are eating from the back.  I think these newfangled food dishes are hogwash.






						Amazon.com : LumoLeaf Dog Cat Bowls, Elevated Cat Bowl, Transparent Raised Cat Food Water Bowl, 0-30° Tilted Design, Cat Food Dish Stand for Kitty and Puppy, Stress Free, Upper Rack Dishwasher Safe. : Kitchen & Dining
					

Amazon.com : LumoLeaf Dog Cat Bowls, Elevated Cat Bowl, Transparent Raised Cat Food Water Bowl, 0-30° Tilted Design, Cat Food Dish Stand for Kitty and Puppy, Stress Free, Upper Rack Dishwasher Safe. : Kitchen & Dining



					www.amazon.com


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## Paul Farquhar (May 27, 2021)

R_J_K75 said:


> I just bought a set of these for my 2 cats, they're funny, dummys are eating from the back.  I think these newfangled food dishes are hogwash.



They work better when gold plated.


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## R_J_K75 (May 27, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> They work better when gold plated.



Or diamond encrusted gifted by Ben Affleck to Jennifer Lopez.


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## Umbran (May 27, 2021)

R_J_K75 said:


> I just bought a set of these for my 2 cats, they're funny, dummys are eating from the back.  I think these newfangled food dishes are hogwash.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So, before calling them dummies... try turning the dish around, and see what they do.

The cat does not know (or honestly care) about what _you_ consider the "right" direction.  They have their own priorities.


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## R_J_K75 (May 27, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, before calling them dummies... try turning the dish around, and see what they do.
> 
> The cat does not know (or honestly care) about what _you_ consider the "right" direction.  They have their own priorities.



"Dummies" was a term of endearment.  Turning the dish around didn't work, they chose the back side.   Judging by this picture I took 2 mins ago I'd say theyre doing OK.


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## Umbran (May 27, 2021)

R_J_K75 said:


> "Dummies" was a term of endearment.  Turning the dish around didn't work, they chose the back side.




The point of turning it around was not to get to "work".  It was to learn something.  

For example - food and water bowls for my cats are placed near, but not right up against, a wall.  When eating or drinking, they show a marked preference for not having their bodies stick out into the room.  They will tend to come at the bowls from the side or back.

Turning the bowl around tells you whether the point is about the bowl, or about position with respect to the rest of the room that mattered.


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## R_J_K75 (May 27, 2021)

Umbran said:


> For example - food and water bowls for my cats are placed near, but not right up against, a wall. When eating or drinking, they show a marked preference for not having their bodies stick out into the room. They will tend to come at the bowls from the side or back.



This is good advice, something I did not know.  I did place the new bowls in the exact same spot as normal.  Now that you mention it they did circle and then eat from the back side usually, closest to the closest wall.  They're smart, they're doing what they've always done without my dumb ass even realizing.  I admit, I was wrong.


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## R_J_K75 (May 27, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Turning the bowl around



Got to admit, I just fed them now and turned theirs bowls around and they did as you expected.


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