# Average AC and Hp of Core monsters, by CR



## Nail (Jun 29, 2005)

Being spured on by another thread, I finally compiled some of the basic data of all the Core (MM) monsters.  Most of the work was done by others....I just added dragons, animals, and vermin.  Anyway, here's the average hp and AC of all the monsters in each CR. 

```
Ave     Ave     Num of
CR     hp     AC     Records
 3     26     16      (lots) 
 4     46     16      (lots)
 5     55     18      (lots)
 6     66     19      (lots)
 7     87     18      (lots)
 8     96     20      (lots)
 9    131     21      (lots)
10    129     21      (lots)
11    165     25      (lots)
12    184     24       *8
13    166     28       *7
14    174     28       *6
15    214     31       *3
16    218     32       *6
17    248     29       *3
18    319     34       *6
19    392     37       *4
20    442     36       *5
21    444     38       *5
```

Trends?  Well, generally speaking:
 AC = CR +14

(For CR 3 - 10, AC = CR +12 fits a bit better)  

hp = 16*CR - 25   (yeah, I know it's kinda clunky)

hp of creatures greater than CR 17 doesn't follow the over all trend...it gets much higher, much faster.

The number of monsters above CR 14 or so makes conclusions about higher CR stuff a bit suspect

I know from experience than MMII, MMIII, FF, and Dungeon magazine commonly make creatures of equal CR _much_ tougher than in the MM, especially when it comes to hp and AC (and DR!).  :\


----------



## shilsen (Jun 30, 2005)

You know you have way too much time on your hands, right ? That being said, I'm glad you do, since that gives me some food for thought when thinking about CRs and appropriate challenges. Thanks.


----------



## Saeviomagy (Jun 30, 2005)

I hope you kept your data so you can give us the standard deviations. It'd be nice to say "a fighter with an attack roll of +W will hit X% of CR Y monsters Z% of the time".

And - did you perhaps get average saving throws too?


----------



## NexH (Jun 30, 2005)

Nice work



> I know from experience than MMII, MMIII, FF, and Dungeon magazine commonly make creatures of equal CR _much_ tougher than in the MM, especially when it comes to hp and AC (and DR!).  :\




I don't know about the other 3, but many creatures from the Fiend Folio seem actually weak for their CRs.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 30, 2005)

... So a CR 10 creature is slightly weaker than a CR 9 creature?  Well, according to that chart, anyway.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Jun 30, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> ... So a CR 10 creature is slightly weaker than a CR 9 creature?  Well, according to that chart, anyway.



 Heehee   I bet that's when they start putting in the things that are absurdly easy but have some ability that they think is good


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 30, 2005)

Well, special abilities do make a big difference, though.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Jun 30, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Well, special abilities do make a big difference, though.



 Sometimes they do, but not when its like many of the 3.0 demons who had a suite of spell-like abilities but were pretty much guaranteed to die before their first turn against any competent party that should be fighting them (unless they rolled lucky initiative)


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 30, 2005)

Well, yes.  I can't say that most CR 10 creatures would lose to most CR 9 creatures, though.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Jun 30, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Well, yes.  I can't say that most CR 10 creatures would lose to most CR 9 creatures, though.



 Probably not.  Then again, CR 8 Gray Renders might lose to a mostly first-level party.  You never know


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 30, 2005)

Pfft.  Maybe if the render didn't attack the first-level party and was already damaged.


----------



## Land Outcast (Jun 30, 2005)

1 Bullete
4 15th level PCs

almost a TPK

Yes, the CR 7 bullete


----------



## LeapingShark (Jun 30, 2005)

Nice info! 
Why were CR 1 & 2 omitted?


----------



## Goolpsy (Jun 30, 2005)

im afraid one cannot just make a table that way... those special abilities isn't taking into calculation here... Vermin = high life, low AC, low CR, Dragon = high life high AC high Cr.     Demon Low life, average Ac, high Cr...

there isn't a ***Standard*** for monsters... and though one of you probably still keeps searching it.. im afraid you will never find it.

Its like comparing the average hp and Ac of   8 fighters, 1 wizard and 1 rogue...


----------



## frankthedm (Jun 30, 2005)

LeapingShark said:
			
		

> Nice info!
> Why were CR 1 & 2 omitted?





the system doesn't understand what a CR 1 or 2 is. 

Elite orc barbarian compared to a common gnoll.

Sahaugin compared to any animal.


----------



## Nail (Jun 30, 2005)

shilsen said:
			
		

> You know you have way too much time on your hands, right ?



Huh.  My fellow gamers say that too.....they also mutter something about "obsessed"...    



			
				Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> I hope you kept your data so you can give us the standard deviations.



 Can do.  I'm away from my (main) computer today tho', you may have to wait. 


			
				Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> And - did you perhaps get average saving throws too?



Ugg.  The database I grabbed that had most monsters (but not dragons, animals, or vermin) has the saving throw data in a bad format.  That would take a bit of time to untangle.   ...But it's do-able.



			
				NexH said:
			
		

> I don't know about the other 3, but many creatures from the Fiend Folio seem actually weak for their CRs.



Huh.  Ever been attacked by the Blood Fiend?  It's ouchy-broken for its CR, IMHO.  Etc.


			
				Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Sometimes they do, but not when its like many of the 3.0 demons who had a suite of spell-like abilities but were pretty much guaranteed to die before their first turn against any competent party that should be fighting them...



Exactly.  IME, many of the monsters with lots of special abilities are meat by the end of round 1 because:
They are easy to hit and have few hp (like Wizards!  ), or
They still only get one action per round...while the party gets 4 to 6 actions/round, or
The DM has forgotten/mis-interpreted one or two key special abilities.....because there are too many to keep track of!!!



			
				LeapingShark[/quote said:
			
		

> Nice info!
> Why were CR 1 & 2 omitted?




#1) Thanks!    

#2) 'Cause CRs up to 2 cover _alot_ of ground!  Check out all of the monsters that fit into that category: 128 monsters out of 459 monsters in the MM.  That's ~28% of the monsters under CR 3.   There's just little point at taking an average of so varied a mix...as they really run the gamut.


----------



## Nail (Jun 30, 2005)

Goolpsy said:
			
		

> im afraid one cannot just make a table that way....



Sure you can!  I just did.     

The "special abilities negate the basic analysis" arguement doesn't hold up.  It's true they make a difference, but in the end, it's still all about *hit points* and *AC*.  Always has (since 1e!), always will.

The only difference might be how you spell "armour", I think.  

 (And yep, average damage per round should be included in that "basic analysis"....but that's more complicated to calculate for each monster in the MM....more complicated and more time consuming, but not impossible).

Moreover, game designers have told me that they try to compare monsters against a "baseline" for each CR, and this is that baseline, stripped of clutter.

....more or less.


----------



## Joshua Randall (Jun 30, 2005)

Off topic, but -- does there exist a database of the monsters in the SRD in a format that I could import into Access and play around with? Yes, yes, I know Access is not a haxor-riffic as using Perl or whatever... but I know how to program in Access, so there. Anyway. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Dr_Rictus (Jun 30, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> The "special abilities negate the basic analysis" arguement doesn't hold up.  It's true they make a difference, but in the end, it's still all about *hit points* and *AC*.  Always has (since 1e!), always will.




Um, not for example *attacks* and *damage*?  I mean, even leaving special abilities aside, monsters don't (usually) just stand there to be chopped down like trees.

Not that the trends in hit points and AC aren't interesting.  I just think saying "it's all about hit points and AC" is kind of ... not actually true.


----------



## Nail (Jun 30, 2005)

Dr_Rictus said:
			
		

> Not that the trends in hit points and AC aren't interesting.  I just think saying "it's all about hit points and AC" is kind of ... not actually true.



 
True enough.    

As I said above, average damage per round is the third in the "trifecta" of relevant stats.  It's just requires more effort to get.

Anyone interested?


----------



## Nail (Jun 30, 2005)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> Off topic, but -- does there exist a database of the monsters in the SRD in a format that I could import into Access and play around with?



boy-howdy would I like an entire set too.   Although my prefered format (read: the only format I know how to manipulate well) is MS Excel.

@ J.R.: I grabbed a partial copy off a website linked on ENWorld.  I've forgotten where, tho'.  Sorry.


----------



## Bauglir (Jun 30, 2005)

http://www.andargor.com/  has some nice stuff, including an SRD database in MySQL (which sadly does not easily import to Access)

Edit: The XML format, on the other hand, does 

Useful table Nail, fancy doing one for PCs?


----------



## seans23 (Jun 30, 2005)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> Off topic, but -- does there exist a database of the monsters in the SRD in a format that I could import into Access and play around with? Yes, yes, I know Access is not a haxor-riffic as using Perl or whatever... but I know how to program in Access, so there. Anyway. Any help would be appreciated.




Adargor's site has XML and MySQL versions.  You can import the mysql database into access pretty easily, or install MySQL on your pc, and then set up an ODBC DSN and connect to it through Access.

http://www.andargor.com/


----------



## Nail (Jun 30, 2005)

Ouch.   Sorry, but...too many acronyms.


----------



## Nail (Jun 30, 2005)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> I hope you kept your data so you can give us the standard deviations.



Done.


```
Ave                Ave                  Num of
CR       hp   StDev         AC  StDev           Records
 3       26 +/- 10          16 +/- 3             62
 4       46 +/- 18          16 +/- 3             33
 5       55 +/- 18          18 +/- 4             38
 6       66 +/- 24          19 +/- 3             22
 7       87 +/- 37          18 +/- 4             35
 8       96 +/- 36          20 +/- 3             27
 9      131 +/- 46          21 +/- 3             23
10      129 +/- 56          21 +/- 4             13
11      165 +/- 48          25 +/- 2             16
12      184 +/- 87          24 +/- 4              8
13      166 +/- 58          28 +/- 2              7
14      174 +/- 62          28 +/- 1              6
15      214 +/- 89          31 +/- 3              3
16      218 +/- 65          32 +/- 2              6
17      248 +/- 78          29 +/- 6              3
18      319 +/- 56          34 +/- 2              6
19      392 +/- 37          37 +/- 1              4
20      442 +/- 249         36 +/- 3              5
21      444 +/- 54          38 +/- 2              5
```

Note: CR 20 hp have a huge St. Dev.  Care to guess the monster that causes this?  

<Spoiler>



Spoiler



Hint: It's name starts with a "T".


 </spoiler>


----------



## NexH (Jul 1, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> Huh.  Ever been attacked by the Blood Fiend?  It's ouchy-broken for its CR, IMHO.  Etc.




But on the other hand, you have many monsters like the darkweaver and the keeper.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jul 1, 2005)

Maybe a graph with a best fit line would be useful?


----------



## Nail (Jul 1, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Maybe a graph with a best fit line would be useful?




Sure!


----------



## maggot (Jul 2, 2005)

Doing a curve fit and rounding off to workable numbers, I came up with:

AC = 5/4 * CR + 10.  (Nail's plot has +13, but I have the same R^2 with ~+10 instead of ~+13)

HP = 9/10 * CR^2 + 30.  (I figured to try a quadratic because as HD increase so does CON)


----------



## FreeTheSlaves (Jul 2, 2005)

I'd just like to say that I noticed this thread a few days ago, have noted and recorded the results.

As a rule of thumb these are of interest to me.


----------



## LeapingShark (Jul 2, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> #2) 'Cause CRs up to 2 cover _alot_ of ground!  Check out all of the monsters that fit into that category: 128 monsters out of 459 monsters in the MM.  That's ~28% of the monsters under CR 3.   There's just little point at taking an average of so varied a mix...as they really run the gamut.



How about if the CR 1 and 2 data was taken from just the standard A - Z monsters, omitting the appendices for "Animal" and "Vermin"?  And also only for CR 1 and 2, not any CR ½ listings.  Would that help cut it down to something reasonable?


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jul 3, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> Sure!



Awesome.    I think this makes the data worth _much_ more.


----------



## Nail (Jul 5, 2005)

LeapingShark said:
			
		

> How about if the CR 1 and 2 data was taken from just the standard A - Z monsters.....



Good point.   I'll include all monsters though (animals, vermin, non-classed humaniods, etc).   

Here's the average hp and AC for all CR 1/2, 1, and 2 monsters in the MM (3.5e).  If you add this into the rest, the "fit" for any simplified line isn't as good.  For example, AC doesn't just keep going down after CR 3; it hits AC 15, then stops.

```
CR   hp  AC
1/2   6  15
 1   12  15
 2   20  15
```


----------



## Nail (Jul 5, 2005)

maggot said:
			
		

> (Nail's plot has +13, but I have the same R^2 with ~+10 instead of ~+13)



Did you include dragons, animals, and vermin?  The database I downloaded to start with didn't have that; I had to add them.

If you have a complete MS Excel spreadsheet with _all_ of the core monsters in it (and _all_ of their stats).....boy howdy, would I like a copy!


----------



## Joshua Randall (Jul 6, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> AC doesn't just keep going down after CR 3; it hits AC 15, then stops.
> 
> ```
> CR hp AC
> ...



This makes sense to me, because a lot of low-level target numbers are fixed at 15. Like DC 15 to make a skill check, or AC 15 (which is really DC by a different name) to hit a creature in combat.

A 1st-level fighter with Str 15 and Weapon Focus will have attack +4 (+1 BAB, +2 Str, +1 feat), so against AC 15 he will hit exactly 50% of the time. Makes sense to me.


----------

