# How much would you spend on monthly subscriptions for dnd?



## Malmuria (Dec 23, 2022)

How much would you spend per month on subscriptions related to dnd?  This could be from dndbeyond, your VTT of choice, or even patreon subscriptions for things you use in your games.


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## tetrasodium (Dec 23, 2022)

Depends on what it gives.  I use a vtt that has a one time purchase that sells content packs of assets & have spent a couple hundred dollars total but I'm pretty sure it averages out to 5-10$ a month or less if I spread the total out.  dndbeyond fills a different niche though & that niche seems to cater almost exclusively towards players with it offering little of interest to me as a GM who buys physical books.  It would depend heavily on how oned&d and dndbeyond evolves.


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## CleverNickName (Dec 23, 2022)

I voted $10 or less.

I would keep my annual subscription to Roll20, and that's it...but it's not _exclusively _a D&D expense for me.  My friends and I play a lot of 5th Edition D&D on Roll20, but we also play a lot of older D&D editions (especially BECM/Rules Cyclopedia, 3.5E, and Pathfinder).  And we also play Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, and Paranoia regularly on Roll20 as well.

So that's $100/year (or $8.33 a month), and it's for several games--not just D&D.


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## overgeeked (Dec 23, 2022)

Malmuria said:


> How much would you spend per month on subscriptions related to dnd?  This could be from dndbeyond, your VTT of choice, or even patreon subscriptions for things you use in your games.



Literally nothing. Print books and purchased PDFs only. Too many free resources to bother buying services.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 23, 2022)

Let's see...here is my current "D&D" spending (all prices in USD):

$55 per year (~$5/month) on D&D Beyond Master Tier subscription (allows me to share unlocked content with players in my campaign, I can do this for 3 campaigns, up to 12 players per campaign, so I can share with 36 people)

$964 for purchasing everything on DDB.  I didn't buy it all at once, but that is what the legendary bundle will cost you today, without a coupon or sale. If all that content was available as a subscription it might be worth it if I didn't already own it.  964 comes to about $80 per month, but I've bought content over a period of years. Much of that content is adventure content and many people are not going to use enough of the adventure content to make paying more than 5 to 10 per month on a subscription worth it if they can just instead buy the few books they want.

$12/month for my World Builder tier subscription with Forge-VTT.  That gives me 2 GB of game data, 20 GB for assets library storage, 250 MB per file asset, no limit on number of worlds, any community modules or any assets bought from the Forge marketplace does not count towards storage asset library limit, save points, advanced invite management and user integration. 

$50 my one-time purchase for Foundry license, which I host on Forge-VTT.

$10 per month to Patreon ($5 to Mr. Primate for DDB Importer for Foundry, allows for all monsters and characters to be imported into Foundry. Also support importing adventures, fully prepped, but there can be a quite a lag between when adventures are available in DDB and when they are fully complete for Foundry.  $5 per month to Moulinette. This is a mod to Foundry to make it simple to create custom tiles among other things. The 5/month is primarily to get access to an ever growing library of artwork that integrates with the mod. 

*Total monthly digital D&D stuff subscription spend = $27 (rounded).  But this price doesn't include the actual content. *

If WotC could offer a subscription of $30/month that would give you access to all content on DDB plus the VTT tools, that would be an easy buy decisions for many people I think. If you already bought or choose to buy content rather than subscribe to it, then 15-20 per month makes sense for content sharing, character building and character sheets, and VTT.  I think $50/year for everything would be the high end they could get away with, but I think 50 per month would price a lot of people out. 

WotC's VTT would have to be really good to get me to pay an additional subscription or to end my Forge VTT subscription and only use the WotC VTT.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 23, 2022)

I mean Roll20 eventually sucked me into paying a few bucks a month by making it free until I reached my storage capacity for uploaded materials, and I'd rather pay a little than have to learn a new VTT, so I had to vote for up to 10$. But I never would have signed up for a paid service if I hadn't already invested all those hours into learning it, and had my groups using it.


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## Micah Sweet (Dec 23, 2022)

I voted $25 or less, but that already goes to Patreon.  I have no interest in paying for D&D Beyond.


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## Shiroiken (Dec 23, 2022)

I said $0, but it's possible I could be suckered into something if the price was right and the product worthwhile. I tried using the free version of Beyond, but it just didn't seem like it would be worth paying for after buying the physical products. The subscription model has never appealed to me, even with VTT I use each week. I've considered getting Foundry, but as long as Roll20 is still quite workable at "free," this is a much less appealing option.



Benjamin Olson said:


> I mean Roll20 eventually sucked me into paying a few bucks a month by making it free until I reached my storage capacity for uploaded materials, and I'd rather pay a little than have to learn a new VTT, so I had to vote for up to 10$. But I never would have signed up for a paid service if I hadn't already invested all those hours into learning it, and had my groups using it.



I had the same issue, but instead I figured out how to go into my storage and delete everything instead. They don't make this particular option easy to find, but that's to be expected. The size per file is also a bit on the obnoxious side, but I've managed. The only feature that made me consider paying for Roll20 was Dynamic Lighting, but another DM in my group tried using and it was a nightmare.


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## Malmuria (Dec 23, 2022)

Personally I don't like the idea of paying a monthly subscription, but in the recent discussions around the "under-monetized" comments, it became clear that many people already use some combination of subscription services.   

I wonder about what the average person spends on stuff in the hobby per month.  If I had to estimate for myself, I probably spend around $200 per year?  Last year/18 months I backed the kickstarters for Vaesen, Mausritter, Herbalist's Primer, and Reach of the Roach God, was briefly subscribed to the lowest tiers for Necrotic Gnome and Luka Rejec on patreon, bought random zines via exalted funeral, and then just bought Death in Space as a gift for a friend.  But then I also sold a bunch of rpg books that I wasn't using.


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## Malmuria (Dec 23, 2022)

Benjamin Olson said:


> I mean Roll20 eventually sucked me into paying a few bucks a month by making it free until I reached my storage capacity for uploaded materials, and I'd rather pay a little than have to learn a new VTT, so I had to vote for up to 10$. But I never would have signed up for a paid service if I hadn't already invested all those hours into learning it, and had my groups using it.



Owlbear Rodeo is so easy and has worked for my table, and because it is lightweight it is pretty fast.  There's no character sheets or automation, however.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 23, 2022)

Shiroiken said:


> I said $0, but it's possible I could be suckered into something if the price was right and the product worthwhile. I tried using the free version of Beyond, but it just didn't seem like it would be worth paying for after buying the physical products. The subscription model has never appealed to me, even with VTT I use each week. I've considered getting Foundry, but as long as Roll20 is still quite workable at "free," this is a much less appealing option.
> 
> 
> I had the same issue, but instead I figured out how to go into my storage and delete everything instead. They don't make this particular option easy to find, but that's to be expected. The size per file is also a bit on the obnoxious side, but I've managed. The only feature that made me consider paying for Roll20 was Dynamic Lighting, but another DM in my group tried using and it was a nightmare.




If you and your players have good internet bandwidth, you might consider Foundry. One time $50 cost. You get best-on-market dynamic lighting, much more easily prepped maps, access to a dizzying number of community mods.  If hosting on your own computer, your only storage limits are those of your machine. 

I do use a hosting service to host my instance of Foundry, but that mostly because I'm usually running games from an location with not-great bandwidth and my players are in another country. There are other benefits to the hosting service I use, but if I were back working in, and running games from, the United States, I would likely just self-host on my computer. All of my content is fully portable. No lock in.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 23, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Literally nothing. Print books and purchased PDFs only. Too many free resources to bother buying services.



Yeah, I think this poll only makes sense for those already playing online.


Malmuria said:


> Owlbear Rodeo is so easy and has worked for my table, and because it is lightweight it is pretty fast.  There's no character sheets or automation, however.



If you like a light "VTT" that does have character sheets and some very basic automation (at least in terms of dice rolls), check out: playrole.com. Also provide excellent video conferencing.


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## CleverNickName (Dec 23, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> If you and your players have good internet bandwidth, you might consider Foundry. One time $50 cost. You get best-on-market dynamic lighting, much more easily prepped maps, access to a dizzying number of community mods.  If hosting on your own computer, your only storage limits are those of your machine.



In my opinion?  "Best" and "more easily" and "dizzying number" are exaggerations, but FoundryVTT *is* a good product.  It requires a hosting service, as you describe, but you can self-host if you're savvy enough.  (Fair warning:  self-hosting is a lot more complicated and requires above-average familiarity with web hosting.  It's complicated and unintuitive for the inexperienced user.)  Foundry's biggest selling point isn't the dynamic lighting, the maps, or the community mods.  It's the price tag: Roll20 can meet or beat everything else, but it can't hold a candle to that one-time purchase price of $50.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 23, 2022)

Malmuria said:


> Personally I don't like the idea of paying a monthly subscription, but in the recent discussions around the "under-monetized" comments, it became clear that many people already use some combination of subscription services.
> 
> I wonder about what the average person spends on stuff in the hobby per month.  If I had to estimate for myself, I probably spend around $200 per year?  Last year/18 months I backed the kickstarters for Vaesen, Mausritter, Herbalist's Primer, and Reach of the Roach God, was briefly subscribed to the lowest tiers for Necrotic Gnome and Luka Rejec on patreon, bought random zines via exalted funeral, and then just bought Death in Space as a gift for a friend.  But then I also sold a bunch of rpg books that I wasn't using.



I am sure many will think that my ~30/month on subscriptions to D&D is high (360 a year), but I spent a lot more on kickstarters for minis and terrain when I was running games in person.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 23, 2022)

CleverNickName said:


> In my opinion?  "Best" and "more easily" and "dizzying number" are exaggerations, but FoundryVTT *is* a good product.  It requires a hosting service, as you describe, but you can self-host if you're savvy enough.  (Fair warning:  self-hosting is a lot more complicated and requires above-average familiarity with web hosting.  It's complicated and unintuitive for the inexperienced user.)  Foundry's biggest selling point isn't the dynamic lighting, the maps, or the community mods.  It's the price tag: Roll20 can meet or beat everything else, but it can't hold a candle to that one-time purchase price of $50.



My exaggerated wording aside, I spent a LOT of time testing and using all of the major VTTs on the market (albeit most of this was 2 years ago), including Fantasy Grounds (both classic and unity), Roll20, d20pro, and Foundry. Previously I was using Map Tool heavily. I looked at a variety of others, but they didn't interest me enough to really dig in. Also, I'm not including "light VTTs" like Owlbear Rodeo and Role as these are not what most people are thinking about when discussing VTTs.

I like Roll20 and still use it fairly frequently as a player.  But as a DM is just became an unresponsive headache with large, complex maps and dynamic lighting. Like, it just wasn't useable. And I spent MANY hours reading help materials, articles, watching YouTube videos on getting the most out of it, and testing it. The amount of time I had to spend prepping my map images just so I could put them into Roll20 to prep them there and still have to cut back on advanced features to avoid performance issues made me eventually cancel my subscription. Foundry has been a breeze in comparison.

I agree that self hosting can be a bit intimidating. But if you are cost sensitive, it may be worth the effort figuring it out.

That said, I'm sure Roll20 has improved over the past couple years and I haven't tried to prep a game as a DM in it (other than Alice is Missing, which really is just a virtual cards, so not demanding at all), so maybe it would work for me now. Also, the requirements of most DMs are much less demanding than mine. Prepping Rappan Athuk in any VTT is no joke.


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## John R Davis (Dec 23, 2022)

Absolute zero.

Buy loads RPG stuff but nothing on any subscription.

I am not the future monetizer they are looking for. I don't use DDB even.


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## Horwath (Dec 23, 2022)

Zero.

Give me a one time purchase.

Also, every book should come with "book key", so you get that digital content for free or at a large discount.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 23, 2022)

10 or less... Which I already do. 7 for DnD beyond.
3 Dollars for Ensider.


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## Bedrockgames (Dec 23, 2022)

Zero. No more subscription services for me


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## kenada (Dec 23, 2022)

I would and have subscribed to other services to support my hobby, but I would not subscribe for the core game itself unless I can get it elsewhere (book, PDF, etc) because I do not trust WotC with running such a service.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 23, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> Yeah, I think this poll only makes sense for those already playing online.




We only play offline or per skype with no vtt.
Gaining access to all books as a subscription model instead of buying twice, book and dndbeyond would be worth 10 dollar per month.


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## DEFCON 1 (Dec 23, 2022)

I used to pay the $6 per month for D&D Insider, and that more than made the subscription worth it.  I currently pay for the big DM tier currently for D&D Beyond and find it to be not at all onerous.  I also throw Morrus a few sheckles every year for whatever tier it is I'm subscribed to EN World (Copper level or something?) as this place has given me hours of entertainment.

I personally find the comments about not wanting to "rent" material to be a bit overblown myself... seeing as how I've literally bought RPG material for good money, glanced through it for an hour, and then have NEVER gone back to it in however many years it has been and its just sat on my shelf.  So those products might as well have been things I "subscribed to" then "lost" when the "servers got shut down" for all the results I got out of them.  And the fact that I still technically "have them" is meaningless if I don't use them.

Owning something you don't use is not intrinsically better than renting something you do, as far as I'm concerned.


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## aco175 (Dec 23, 2022)

While I do not see much use out of DDB for my group, I have looked up things on the site for monsters and items and spells.  They pop up for free on a search though.  If they made a Dragon and/or Dungeon magazine thing to offer as well, then I could see something for a subscription.  I voted $10, but more in the $6 range.


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## payn (Dec 23, 2022)

Hard to say. I currently use Foundry which suits my needs, and is flexible and customizable when it doesnt. I have Forge for hosting and then spend a modest amount on maps. After all expenses I'm probably in the 10 a month spot. Hard to imagine wotc meeting that.


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## MockingBird (Dec 23, 2022)

We don't play online so VTTs are not something I'd spend money on. However, like I've stated before, I'd drop 10$ a month on official D&D 3d printing STL files. I'm already spending that with Loot Studios so that's money WotC could be getting.


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## Micah Sweet (Dec 23, 2022)

MockingBird said:


> We don't play online so VTTs are not something I'd spend money on. However, like I've stated before, I'd drop 10$ a month on official D&D 3d printing STL files. I'm already spending that with Loot Studios so that's money WotC could be getting.



See, my online game is just Discord and Theater of the Mind, with the occasional (free) use of Roll 20 screen shared if I want to draw a map.  I only spend subscription money for content, not ease of access or use.


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## UngainlyTitan (Dec 23, 2022)

Any or all it really depends what is on offer.


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## MGibster (Dec 23, 2022)

::Waves hand::  I am not the monetizer you are seeking.  

I only started playing online because social distancing due to COVID was the responsible thing to do.  Once vaccinations became available, my group decided it was time to meet face-to-face.  Playing online was better than nothing, but meeting up with live people is how the game was meant to be played.  I play many games, not just D&D, and I tend to only be in one campaign at a time.  Even if I wanted a subscription plan, I'd have to be able to cancel it for the many months I'm not running D&D and then resume my subscription when it's convenient.  Even if I were inclined to go for a subscription, I don't know if I'd want to keep track of manage yet another subscription to some service.  At one point in time the only subscription I had was to World of Warcraft, but with streaming services I've got more to keep track of now.  It's getting to be a pain.


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## Bedrockgames (Dec 23, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> Yeah, I think this poll only makes sense for those already playing online.
> 
> If you like a light "VTT" that does have character sheets and some very basic automation (at least in terms of dice rolls), check out: playrole.com. Also provide excellent video conferencing.



I mostly play online these days but just do so over Skype or discord with no miniatures or grid. If you take out the battle mat, online play feels a lot more like live table play


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 23, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> See, my online game is just Discord and Theater of the Mind, with the occasional (free) use of Roll 20 screen shared if I want to draw a map.  I only spend subscription money for content, not ease of access or use.




Which is a choice you made. For some people ease of use has intrinsical value.

Same for games with pay to progress faster.
Some people have more money than time. So it seems fair that more casual players can help themself and just add some money into the mix.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 23, 2022)

I’d pay more than $10, but not $25, unless it was for a lot of stuff. 

I currently have the master tier on DDB, and I have a few patreons I and my wife support, and we are considering the paid sub to heroforge. 

I’d probably be fine with up $15 a month for a DDB that had a vtt, better encounter building, and a monster builder that wasn’t awful to use. Add in a little monthly content, even just lore, and I’m all in.


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## overgeeked (Dec 23, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> Yeah, I think this poll only makes sense for those already playing online.



There’s still a pandemic. I play 100% online. There are too many free tools online to ever bother paying for things you can get for free, do yourself, or don’t need.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 23, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> There’s still a pandemic.




No, no... there never was a pandemic...
the only possible way to have one, would be, if an interplanar asteroid would crash into earth, bringing an alien virus with it...

... oh... wrong thread...


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## Retreater (Dec 23, 2022)

$10, and only if that includes my VTT of choice.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 23, 2022)

I voted for $0. I pay for gamepads on zee Xbox but that's a bit different.

 I don't really see the point of paying money to DM. May as well subscribe to an MMORPG instead.


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## Mad_Jack (Dec 23, 2022)

I don't play often, and when I do I prefer to do it in person. I'm okay paying for content online rather than the books, but I'm only going to pay for it once.


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## Micah Sweet (Dec 23, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Which is a choice you made. For some people ease of use has intrinsical value.
> 
> Same for games with pay to progress faster.
> Some people have more money than time. So it seems fair that more casual players can help themself and just add some money into the mix.



Absolutely. Did I say otherwise?  I was pretty clear that was my personal perspective.


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## delericho (Dec 23, 2022)

It depends on whether I'm currently playing and what the offering is.

First up, if they did digital versions of the Dragon and Dungeon magazines of old (not the 4e successor, which was something of a step down, and not Dragon+), then I'd subscribe in a moment. And that whether I'm playing or not - but it would need to be in PDF format or similar.

For anything else, I'd only consider it if I'm actively playing. And since my games at the moment are in an environment where online access is difficult, it would either need to be PDFs or tools for preparing the game. I have no use at all for D&D Beyond, a VTT, or anything like that - I can't use them. But, I'd happily pay for really good tools for preparing a game... provided I'm actually playing.

In terms of price, $25 a month is probably my limit.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 23, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> Absolutely. Did I say otherwise?  I was pretty clear that was my personal perspective.




No. I just wanted to add to your statement.


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## Malmuria (Dec 23, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> There’s still a pandemic. I play 100% online. There are too many free tools online to ever bother paying for things you can get for free, do yourself, or don’t need.



I think people use dndbeyond in person as well?  And some people even use a vtt in person


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## overgeeked (Dec 23, 2022)

Malmuria said:


> I think people use dndbeyond in person as well?  And some people even use a vtt in person



Sure. Some people use paper sheets even when playing online. And some people use theater of the mind. There are free VTTs and there are free resources for those VTTs. There are also free character builders for 5E if you like that kind of thing.


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## UngainlyTitan (Dec 23, 2022)

Malmuria said:


> I think people use dndbeyond in person as well?  And some people even use a vtt in person



I think if I was playing in person I would switch to D&DBeyond for my  character sheet.


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## Clint_L (Dec 23, 2022)

I have a master tier subscription on DDB and I consider it _incredible_ value. It costs me 5-6 bucks a month, I think? Easily the best entertainment dollars I have ever spent. If there was a really good virtual tabletop that was easy to use (much easier than Roll20) I would pay for that, maybe a nominal subscription ($5-10/month) but I assume I'd also be making in-app purchases of terrain/creature modules.

I spend several hundred dollars/month on average for physical miniatures and terrain, so subscription fees are a drop in the bucket.

Edit: building on the "renting" vs. "owning" discussion folks were having, I am all for renting! Less wasteful and I don't wind up with crap cluttering up my house - I do enough of that with my miniatures.


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## Greg Benage (Dec 23, 2022)

I don't know what's included in the subscription.

I pay $100/year for a Roll20 Pro subscription, but then I also buy the Roll20 version of some books. List price is the same as the hardcopies. I've been averaging a couple products a year, so figure another $100 for content. According to my Roll20 stats, I've averaged over 500 hours a year there since 2014, though that includes time that I'm "in the game" prepping for the next session. But still, maybe 50 cents an hour spent on my favorite hobby for the past 42 years, so it feels like a pretty good value. Oh, I do buy the occasional item from DMs Guild, but not often and the cost is negligible.

I could _imagine_ myself paying $500/year for D&D, but I'd need more value out of it than what I have now (basically VTT, character builder, and content).


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## Malmuria (Dec 23, 2022)

DEFCON 1 said:


> I used to pay the $6 per month for D&D Insider, and that more than made the subscription worth it.  I currently pay for the big DM tier currently for D&D Beyond and find it to be not at all onerous.  I also throw Morrus a few sheckles every year for whatever tier it is I'm subscribed to EN World (Copper level or something?) as this place has given me hours of entertainment.
> 
> I personally find the comments about not wanting to "rent" material to be a bit overblown myself... seeing as how I've literally bought RPG material for good money, glanced through it for an hour, and then have NEVER gone back to it in however many years it has been and its just sat on my shelf.  So those products might as well have been things I "subscribed to" then "lost" when the "servers got shut down" for all the results I got out of them.  And the fact that I still technically "have them" is meaningless if I don't use them.
> 
> Owning something you don't use is not intrinsically better than renting something you do, as far as I'm concerned.




True, though if you buy something physical like a book you could always sell it later


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## Shiroiken (Dec 23, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> If you and your players have good internet bandwidth, you might consider Foundry. One time $50 cost. You get best-on-market dynamic lighting, much more easily prepped maps, access to a dizzying number of community mods.  If hosting on your own computer, your only storage limits are those of your machine.
> 
> I do use a hosting service to host my instance of Foundry, but that mostly because I'm usually running games from an location with not-great bandwidth and my players are in another country. There are other benefits to the hosting service I use, but if I were back working in, and running games from, the United States, I would likely just self-host on my computer. All of my content is fully portable. No lock in.



I've been a player in a Foundry game, and I found it to be a really good system. However, not only would I be unable to host it on my 10 year old laptop, I'm not computer savvy enough to know how. I think of all the paid options, it's almost certainly the best choice, but as I said... as long as I can successfully use Roll20 for free, it's unlikely I'll make the switch. If I have to switch, Foundry will almost certainly be my new system.


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## payn (Dec 23, 2022)

Shiroiken said:


> I've been a player in a Foundry game, and I found it to be a really good system. However, not only would I be unable to host it on my 10 year old laptop, I'm not computer savvy enough to know how. I think of all the paid options, it's almost certainly the best choice, but as I said... as long as I can successfully use Roll20 for free, it's unlikely I'll make the switch. If I have to switch, Foundry will almost certainly be my new system.



The Forge allows you to host online your foundry games. I beleive its like 40 bucks a year for the entry tier which gets you a few game worlds. I have put a ton of art and journals into my Traveller game. 

WotC sub system would have to offer at least that much. I know some folks are freaking out because they dont think you will be able to play 5E anywhere but on WotC system, but Foundry has proven to be pretty easy to use. Affordable to boot. So there is definitely levels of survival I am ready to accept.


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## R_J_K75 (Dec 24, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Literally nothing. Print books and purchased PDFs only. Too many free resources to bother buying services.



These are generally my feelings too. Depending on what's offered on D&D Beyond and WotC VTT come the 2024 1D&D release I may be inclined to throw down some money for a month trial to give it a shot depending on the cost.

Edit: I think $25 is a realistic price for both, but again all depends on what is included.


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## Scribe (Dec 24, 2022)

A big $0.


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## shadowoflameth (Dec 24, 2022)

So if the results so far and my own vote are any indicator, if they do not want to lose more than half their players, they better not do this.


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## Maxperson (Dec 24, 2022)

I would spend 0.  I'm not paying for purely online content just like I don't pay for it with Magic the Gathering.


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## Scribe (Dec 24, 2022)

shadowoflameth said:


> So if the results so far and my own vote are any indicator, if they do not want to lose more than half their players, they better not do this.




They (WoTC) wont get out of printed materials, and so people wont just be jumping ship I think. There is already 'online only' content however.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Owning something you don't use is not intrinsically better than renting something you do, as far as I'm concerned.



All depends on one's expected use case. When I see arguments about subscription services, versus purchased digital content, versus buying the physical material, I tend to see a lot folks talking past each other and not understanding where different people are coming from. When I really love a book, I will want a physical copy, even if that means I have to buy it twice in two different formats.  I'm very glad I bought Volo's Guide in paper. It my favorite 5e book published by WotC. I'm also glad I bought it on DnD Beyond, because even though nobody can buy it now on DDB, I still have access to it and can share it. 

My one concern with "renting" is that if they decide to make a book legacy and no longer support it, I suspect it may no longer be available. I prefer the current model where I can buy the digital books on DDB and still have access to them whether I pay for a subscription or not. My DDB subscription is more like a friends-and-family plan where I can share all my books with players in my campaigns, my son, and my son's friends. But I am also fully cognizant that WotC can change or remove my purchased content at any time. I still buy it because I the having errata automatically updated is mostly a good thing and I am pretty confident that I (and a number of people I share my content with) will get at least several years of use out of it. 

But for the books I really like, I buy physical copies.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

Bedrockgames said:


> I mostly play online these days but just do so over Skype or discord with no miniatures or grid. If you take out the battle mat, online play feels a lot more like live table play



I guess it depends on what your live table play is like. When I ran games in person, I was printing out battlemaps with a plotter printer and also had a lot of terrain and 2d and 3d minies. I have a paper cutting machine and made lots of paper terrain and paper standee minis. My D&D group is decidedly more on the tactical wargame side of the spectrum, more than TOTM.  Actually, I first started using VTT or VTT like setups for my live game to save time and money. I bought an LCD TV and put it in a case to lay horizontally and display maps with fog of war, first in RealmWorks and then with Map Tool. 

When a new job made it so I had to run my games remotely, at first I tried to run it via Google Meet. It just didn't feel like live table play to me. Once I started using VTT it felt a lot more like our games when we played in person. 

But if I were to run other systems, I would probably use Role or some other gaming-focused video conferencing system with character sheets, dice rolling, and very light map and image sharing.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> There’s still a pandemic. I play 100% online. There are too many free tools online to ever bother paying for things you can get for free, do yourself, or don’t need.



What free tools do you use?  If you don't want a full-featured VTT, sure, very easy to run TOTM games for free. 

But once you get into VTT territory, many people would find it too much of a hassle to configure the technology to host the games themselves. I'm a huge fan of Map Tool, but I would never recommend someone run remote games using it unless I know they have a technical bent. 

Roll20's free trier is a better alternative, but many game masters will hit the limitations of the free tier very quickly.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> I think if I was playing in person I would switch to D&DBeyond for my  character sheet.



At much as I like DDB, I never liked using it as a character sheet when playing in person. I find having everything in front of me on paper is still more convenient than tapping around on a phone, tablet, or laptop. I also find electronics take me out of the game. 

One thing DDB sorely lacks is good printable versions of the character sheets.  The PDFs it generates are crap. When I was playing in person in the early days of 5e, I used Hero Lab. I would print my character sheets from Hero Lab which were very well laid out to easily reference even very complicated characters, had tick boxes for expendables like spell slots and ammo and many other nice touches.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> I have a master tier subscription on DDB and I consider it _incredible_ value. It costs me 5-6 bucks a month, I think? Easily the best entertainment dollars I have ever spent. If there was a really good virtual tabletop that was easy to use (much easier than Roll20) I would pay for that, maybe a nominal subscription ($5-10/month) but I assume I'd also be making in-app purchases of terrain/creature modules.
> 
> I spend several hundred dollars/month on average for physical miniatures and terrain, so subscription fees are a drop in the bucket.
> 
> Edit: building on the "renting" vs. "owning" discussion folks were having, I am all for renting! Less wasteful and I don't wind up with crap cluttering up my house - I do enough of that with my miniatures.



Curious as to what you think of services that now rent terrain and minis.  I've found them to be more expensive than I'm willing to pay.  Even in-person, much cheaper and easier to just use digital battlemaps. But given how much you spend on terrain per month, perhaps you would save money renting--though I suspect that the painting and collecting are part of the appeal to you.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

Greg Benage said:


> I could _imagine_ myself paying $500/year for D&D, but I'd need more value out of it than what I have now (basically VTT, character builder, and content).



For $500 a year, it would have to be character building, rules and adventure content, full featured VTT with fully prepped maps and notes for the adventures, AND:

a decent encounter builder
good tools for making it easy to create custom actors and items that will work properly in the VTT
AND a fairly robust world-building / campaign management functionality.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

Malmuria said:


> True, though if you buy something physical like a book you could always sell it later



Well, in my experience, more like donate or give away. Even with board games, I've never found the money made worth the effort to sell them. TTRPG books are even worse. I feel much better, and it is much easier, to give to people who you know will enjoy them. Also my LFGS has a community game library. I've donated a lot of stuff to it over the years and it is nice to know that quite a bit of it will continue to be enjoyed by many other people. Donating to Goodwill or another charity may give me a tax write off, but never enough to make the extra effort and bookkeeping worth it. Besides, I think supporting the ability of the local community to enjoy games for free is a net good, even if that is a service provided by a pro-profit company.


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## overgeeked (Dec 24, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> What free tools do you use?  If you don't want a full-featured VTT, sure, very easy to run TOTM games for free.
> 
> But once you get into VTT territory, many people would find it too much of a hassle to configure the technology to host the games themselves. I'm a huge fan of Map Tool, but I would never recommend someone run remote games using it unless I know they have a technical bent.
> 
> Roll20's free trier is a better alternative, but many game masters will hit the limitations of the free tier very quickly.



I use the free tier of Roll20 but I’m not a pack rat with files. I don’t need to keep dozens of maps and tokens on their drives. A generic wilderness background, a generic town background, and a generic dungeon background are good enough. Any important details you can hand draw. Draw a few circles and tag them as enemies. It’s only when you get silly like thinking you need exactly the perfect map for every room, every hall, every town, and tokens for every NPC and monster that you run into trouble. Spending hours setting up dynamic lighting or worrying about whether the VTT has doors that open? Come on. You can run with butcher paper, markers, and tokens. No reason to get any more involved online simply because fancy tools exist. Save the time, save the money, and save the headache. The players can exercise a little imagination.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

payn said:


> The Forge allows you to host online your foundry games. I beleive its like 40 bucks a year for the entry tier which gets you a few game worlds. I have put a ton of art and journals into my Traveller game.
> 
> WotC sub system would have to offer at least that much. I know some folks are freaking out because they dont think you will be able to play 5E anywhere but on WotC system, but Foundry has proven to be pretty easy to use. Affordable to boot. So there is definitely levels of survival I am ready to accept.



Yeah, WotC may be able to make it more difficult to import their content from DDB into non-WotC VTTs, but there's nothing they can really do to stop people from using their VTT of choice. I tend to run third-party published adventures anyway, so am already doing most of my own VTT prep. If they made it impossible for me to import my paid-for content into Foundry, that would just make DDB that much less valuable to me. WotC should focus on making their VTT the best experience for running D&D online rather than trying to make it more difficult for everyone using other VTTs. If they took the later approach that would certainly get me looking seriously into switching to Pathfinder 2e.


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## Clint_L (Dec 24, 2022)

shadowoflameth said:


> So if the results so far and my own vote are any indicator, if they do not want to lose more than half their players, they better not do this.



They've already done it, and DnDBeyond is incredibly popular. So are various non-WotC subscriptions, such as Roll20. So, yeah. They didn't lose more than half their players. I suspect that votes on a forum like this bear very, very little relationship to the vast population of D&D players.


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## UngainlyTitan (Dec 24, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> At much as I like DDB, I never liked using it as a character sheet when playing in person. I find having everything in front of me on paper is still more convenient than tapping around on a phone, tablet, or laptop. I also find electronics take me out of the game.
> 
> One thing DDB sorely lacks is good printable versions of the character sheets.  The PDFs it generates are crap. When I was playing in person in the early days of 5e, I used Hero Lab. I would print my character sheets from Hero Lab which were very well laid out to easily reference even very complicated characters, had tick boxes for expendables like spell slots and ammo and many other nice touches.



Each to their own but I have an uncanny ability to loose paper.


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## Bedrockgames (Dec 24, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> I guess it depends on what your live table play is like. When I ran games in person, I was printing out battlemaps with a plotter printer and also had a lot of terrain and 2d and 3d minies. I have a paper cutting machine and made lots of paper terrain and paper standee minis. My D&D group is decidedly more on the tactical wargame side of the spectrum, more than TOTM.  Actually, I first started using VTT or VTT like setups for my live game to save time and money. I bought an LCD TV and put it in a case to lay horizontally and display maps with fog of war, first in RealmWorks and then with Map Tool.
> 
> When a new job made it so I had to run my games remotely, at first I tried to run it via Google Meet. It just didn't feel like live table play to me. Once I started using VTT it felt a lot more like our games when we played in person.




My live table play is mostly theater of the mind (with occasional miniature use for things like very large battles), so that does affect the outcome here for me. That said, when I have used VTT or other online platforms that make use of battlemats, I find the process to be a lot slower than at a regular table. That might just be me or the people I game with. Either way, I discovered pretty quickly I didn't enjoy gaming with VTT and that if I shifted to all theater of the mind for online play, it was basically 95% like a real session for me.


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## DEFCON 1 (Dec 24, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> They've already done it, and DnDBeyond is incredibly popular. So are various non-WotC subscriptions, such as Roll20. So, yeah. They didn't lose more than half their players. I suspect that votes on a forum like this bear very, very little relationship to the vast population of D&D players.



And of course the other point about all of this... it is very easy for all of us to make our declarations here and now when there's no actual demand or requirement for us acting out our choices.  But if/when the situation postulated ever actually came to be... who knows whether we'd actually stick with the answer we gave?  Thus it's kind of pointless for any of us to even bother "making a choice" right now.  We can all say one thing in this thread, but can easily change our answers once we find ourselves actually in the situation for real.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Each to their own but I have an uncanny ability to loose paper.



Which is why I like the best of both worlds. Make the character online and print it before the game. I have an uncanny ability to forget to charge my phone. 

Then again, I still print out copies of my boarding passes when possible. Just in case.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

DEFCON 1 said:


> And of course the other point about all of this... it is very easy for all of us to make our declarations here and now when there's no actual demand or requirement for us acting out our choices.  But if/when the situation postulated ever actually came to be... who knows whether we'd actually stick with the answer we gave?  Thus it's kind of pointless for any of us to even bother "making a choice" right now.  We can all say one thing in this thread, but can easily change our answers once we find ourselves actually in the situation for real.



And then we can enjoy defending out actual decisions on the interwebs as much as we enjoyed arguing about what we would or should do before we had to make a decision.


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## Mistwell (Dec 24, 2022)

Malmuria said:


> How much would you spend per month on subscriptions related to dnd?  This could be from dndbeyond, your VTT of choice, or even patreon subscriptions for things you use in your games.



I don't subscribe to the tier on DNDBeyond that gives you unlimited characters but I've been thinking about it. Our DM subscribes to the sharing option on DNDBeyond and that has been a lifesaver as he has the "all books" library which means all his players can access all the books. Extremely valuable to our groups.


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## UngainlyTitan (Dec 24, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> Which is why I like the best of both worlds. Make the character online and print it before the game. I have an uncanny ability to forget to charge my phone.
> 
> Then again, I still print out copies of my boarding passes when possible. Just in case.



It I bring my tablet then I will bring the charger.


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## MostlyHarmless42 (Jan 1, 2023)

$0 monthly and this is a hill I will die on. I am one of those "whales" that Wizards is wanting to exploit. Tabletop games are one of my biggest hobbies and I spend at least a couple thousand dollars each year on rpg products between offical stuff, miniatures, dice, 3rd party products, and other stuff, and my wife is a avid Magic the Gathering fan. Neither of us is fond of the idea of Wizards turning DnD into a "live service digital" experience.

I am openly opposed to using DnD Beyond already, have no desire to use a virtual tabletop that I have to pay for, and will refuse to give wizards a single cent of money EVER again if they dare try to force a) force everyone to use a subscription service to play their game, b) implement any sort of microtransactions in order to play their products, or c) take any steps that outright destroy the ability for creators to release 3rd party products without using their oppressive DMsguild. 

I already refuse to purchase apple products for similar reasons with their app store for taking absurd cuts from creators, and refuse to play any video game labeled a "live service" or purchase any sort of lootboxes, so why would I not be consistant with DnD?

No matter what happens I'll still be willing to play the new ruleset if I feel it's superior as a gaming experience. I'm just not allowed mention _how_ as it's against forum rules. I just fear a handful of out of touch Wizards executives need a reminder of what happened with they tried this stuff last time. Pathfinder is still around after all.


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## Clint_L (Jan 1, 2023)

I'm not sure how the Paizo situation relates? That was caused by WotC releasing a version of D&D that swerved sharply from the traditional game while simultaneously making it possible for Paizo to create a game that was more like traditional D&D than 4e was.

Here's what interests me: you seem willing to spend a ton on this hobby. That's cool; shout-out to a fellow miniatures and terrain enthusiast! Why does it bother you if Hasbro is trying to find ways to increase their share of that pie? You seem to feel that their actions would be exploitative, yet they aren't who you are currently giving most of your money to. How are they treating you like a "whale"? For that matter, in the discussion that spawned this and other threads, they already addressed the fact that they are _too_ reliant on the most hardcore fans (DMs) and are primarily concerned with diversifying beyond their current base.

I'm also not sure why you seem annoyed by DnDBeyond. It is, and has always been, free to use. Most folks with accounts on it pay $0. I have a Master's Tier subscription, which costs me $7/month, and in addition to all the tools that save me hours of prep time every week, that allows me to share _all_ of my resources with _every_ player in all of my campaigns. I think that is an _incredible bargain_! And the micro-transactions are great - if a new book comes out and all you want from it is a new playable race, you can buy just that for a few bucks instead of having to pay for the whole book.

There is also no indication that Hasbro intends to make virtual play mandatory. How would they even do that? Offering a VTT is them arriving rather late at the party - millions of players already choose to use a VTT such as Roll20. As for 3rd party creators, WotC has been incredibly generous with allowing 3rd party creators to make products for its IP. Since you are a miniatures person like myself, consider Reaper. Half of their monsters are thinly disguised versions of WotC IP ("Floating Eye Beast," etc.) and WotC haven't said "boo" about it.

When I think of RPG vendors that treat me like a "whale," the first one that comes to mind is Wizkids, releasing highly coveted miniatures like the Tarrasque for upwards of $400! I can't think of one time that Hasbro/WotC has treated me like a "whale."

Here's my experience with WotC and DnDBeyond: they run a programme where, if you are using the game for educational purposes, they will gift you an entire set of _every sourcebook and adventure_ and allow you to share them with your students. I applied for it because I run the D&D Club at my school. It was easy to do, they checked out my bona fides quickly with no fuss, no muss, and with a few days we received access to every single text on DnDBeyond. Well over $1000 worth of stuff (and they also kicked in a bunch of Magic bundles)!

From my perspective, these are not corporate villains.


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## MNblockhead (Jan 1, 2023)

MostlyHarmless42 said:


> $0 monthly and this is a hill I will die on. I am one of those "whales" that Wizards is wanting to exploit. Tabletop games are one of my biggest hobbies and I spend at least a couple thousand dollars each year on rpg products between offical stuff, miniatures, dice, 3rd party products, and other stuff, and my wife is a avid Magic the Gathering fan. Neither of us is fond of the idea of Wizards turning DnD into a "live service digital" experience.
> 
> I am openly opposed to using DnD Beyond already, have no desire to use a virtual tabletop that I have to pay for, and will refuse to give wizards a single cent of money EVER again if they dare try to force a) force everyone to use a subscription service to play their game, b) implement any sort of microtransactions in order to play their products, or c) take any steps that outright destroy the ability for creators to release 3rd party products without using their oppressive DMsguild.
> 
> ...



I'm sure that Wizard's will continue to happily sell you physical books and take their license fees from Whiz Kids, Beadle & Grimm, and other making D&D branded physical assets. You'll never HAVE to pay a subscription just to play D&D.


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## MockingBird (Jan 1, 2023)

We use Dndbeyond and pay nothing. I use it to update the kids character sheets and print them so it's a hybrid of pen and paper and Dndbeyond. I've purchased books too. I also bought a single adventure from Yawning Portal. Using Dndbeyond while running a game is so much easier since all the monsters are hyperlinked and even pull of a preview with the necessary stats for a quick look.


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## pogre (Jan 1, 2023)

I am not sure what to choose.

I do run a game online for far flung friends, but we do not play D&D. We play lots of other games and a few that are D&D-like, for example we're playing DCC right now.

I could envision an online service getting a subscription from me. If it were say a patreon which featured STLs for monsters and a few unusual PC races. 

Years ago I subscribed to a service that released an adventure every couple of weeks which allowed you to input your party numbers and level and it would automatically adjust the adventure. Sadly, it did not make it. I cannot for the life of me remember what it was called. It was during the 3.X era. One of their main adventure writers was a prolific poster on ENWorld. 

A Dungeon magazine type of subscription would bring me in.

Right now it is zero for subscription services. I use Owlbear Rodeo for most of our online stuff. 

For the right materials I would throw down $50 a month or more.


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## aco175 (Jan 1, 2023)

I'm older like most of us here and do not like subscriptions.  My new laptop kept wanting me to get Microsoft365 and ended up buying Office2018 so I would not have a subscription.  I would not but a DDB subscription unless it had a Dungeon/Dragon type magazine with it.  I look at that like a few of the other magazines I get each month.

My son though has some online things already and seems like his generation is fine with them.  Seems like government programs starting in schools so the kids become used to them and do not complain and grow up with it.


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Jan 1, 2023)

I have no problem with subscriptions, but I hate micro transactions. I did happily sub to Beyond, just like I now sub to The Forge to house Foundry. 

Since me and my table have quit 5e and won't play D&D in the foreseeable future, I'm not gonna spend a cent on it. There are lots of other  games out there that doesn't throw monetization and micro transactions in the face of their consumers and that manage to combine sales figures with actually good and fun gaming products.


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## Remathilis (Jan 1, 2023)

Right now, I play Elder Scrolls Online with their Plus subscription. ESO+'s biggest selling point is access to all the smaller dlc zones and dungeons plus every annual chapter but the latest one. (So right now, plus gives you all chapters but the 2022 one and all dlc.) In addition, I get special subscription perks (dyeing costumes, slight boost to xp, and an unlimited craft bag) as well a stipend of premium currency that you can use in the cash shop for cosmetics and QoL updates. I pay $15 per month (less due to bulk discount) for this.

I would love to do the same for D&D Beyond. A single cost subscription to give me access to all (or maybe all but the most recent one) books in the Database, plus the master-tier subscription perks (unlimited PCs, share sources) for about $15 per month. The biggest hurdle to DnDB is that the book cost is expensive to start with. $90 for the core books, another $90 for the rule expansions (Xanathar, Tasha, Mordenkainen), plus a $5/month subscription to make more than a handful of PCs or share books. Toss in that VTT and I'll go as high as $20. (Twenty is what I pay for YouTube Music streaming access with all the YouTube plus features like no ads).

But buying each source separately, especially playing catch up, is financially out of my reach. WotC needs to allow a subscription to content or lower the buy-in cost for me to seriously consider using it.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jan 1, 2023)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> I have no problem with subscriptions, but I hate micro transactions. I did happily sub to Beyond, just like I now sub to The Forge to house Foundry.
> 
> Since me and my table have quit 5e and won't play D&D in the foreseeable future, I'm not gonna spend a cent on it. There are lots of other  games out there that doesn't throw monetization and micro transactions in the face of their consumers and that manage to combine sales figures with actually good and fun gaming products.



When did that happen with D&D?


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## Clint_L (Jan 1, 2023)

MonsterEnvy said:


> When did that happen with D&D?



That's what I keep wondering. Folks seem very annoyed with Hasbro/WotC, but I can't for the life of me identify anything they've done that seems egregious. Their books have always been well priced. DnDBeyond is incredibly cheap, and the micro-transactions on it actually save you money by letting you choose to buy part of a book instead of the whole thing (plus, if you change you mind later and do want the rest of it, they discount what you already paid).

All the expensive stuff in the hobby is sold by third parties like Wizkids, Dwarven Forge, Beadle&Grimm, etc.

I don't understand what is driving the anger towards WotC. They've always been straight shooters, in my experience. They've got a good reputation with their staff, ex-staff, and business partners. They've done much better by their creatives than TSR ever did, that's for sure!

Maybe that will change, but it doesn't seem fair to judge them for stuff that might or might not happen. Given their history, I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## nevin (Jan 1, 2023)

Not anymore than my  Hulu or Netflix subscription.  They get used every day.   DND beyond gets used only when I can get my gaming group together.  So 2 to 4 times a month.   maybe 10 or so if you count looking up things for campaigns.


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## Morrus (Jan 2, 2023)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> Since me and my table have quit 5e and won't play D&D in the foreseeable future, I'm not gonna spend a cent on it.



I suppose not. Why would you spend money on a game you have quit? I'm mildly confused. I'm also not spending money on antique chinese tea sets or discarded NASA rocket parts.

I guess the most interetsing question is why you are posting in a thread about a game you don't play and have no intention of playing? That sounds like really hard work. The number of things you don't intent to do surely outweighs the number of things you intend to do. Maybe post about the latter?

But otherwise, please tell us about your thoughts on pottery, skydiving, and deep-sea diving.


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Jan 2, 2023)

Morrus said:


> I suppose not. Why would you spend money on a game you have quit? I'm mildly confused. I'm also not spending money on antique chinese tea sets or discarded NASA rocket parts.
> 
> I guess the most interetsing question is why you are posting in a thread about a game you don't play and have no intention of playing? That sounds like really hard work. The number of things you don't intent to do surely outweighs the number of things you intend to do. Maybe post about the latter?
> 
> But otherwise, please tell us about your thoughts on pottery, skydiving, and deep-sea diving.



Shure. Despite your snarky and sarcastic tone I will enlighten you.

Regarding pottery it has an interesting history, from purely functional containers, via vessels with religious and sociocultural connotations, to todays hypercommercialized products. But besides being a product, pottery has since the arts and craft movement in the late 19th century also been a medium for self expression with a therapeutic function for the bourgeois. And precisely that dualism is why pottery - far removed from antique greek urns - is still interesting today.

Skydiving is largely a mystery to me, not the least because I get vertigo by standing on a kitchen table. The most interesting aspect of it though is that it's part of the cult of physical kicks, an expression of the hunt for meaning in late modernity's commodification of the self. If you are interested I can tell you more about my thoughts about that.

Deep-sea diving is another expression of the above, but in another direction, towards a more spiritual direction. On the other hand, exploring the deep blue also has both scientific meaning and connotations of capitalism. In these days of over-exploitation of the earth the deep sea still is both virgin grounds for exploration and a sense of mystery, and maybe the last area to rape for material gain. It's complicated.

If you think that I have written something wrong in a thread, a friendly reminder goes a long way, to keep up the tone I guess you want in your forum. Or maybe the snarky reply should be interpreted as an example you want us to follow?


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## Remathilis (Jan 2, 2023)

Clint_L said:


> That's what I keep wondering. Folks seem very annoyed with Hasbro/WotC, but I can't for the life of me identify anything they've done that seems egregious. Their books have always been well priced. DnDBeyond is incredibly cheap, and the micro-transactions on it actually save you money by letting you choose to buy part of a book instead of the whole thing (plus, if you change you mind later and do want the rest of it, they discount what you already paid).
> 
> All the expensive stuff in the hobby is sold by third parties like Wizkids, Dwarven Forge, Beadle&Grimm, etc.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure it stems from the Magic: The Gathering side of WotC, where the monetization of cards (both on the primay and secondary market) has made play difficult for all but the most dedicated whales. It's not just $1000 randomized proxy cards either; it's the constant churn of multiple sets (often one per month), supplemental items, card bans and meta-shakeups, and the fact that even Arena, their "free to play" MTG online system, is heavily weighted toward pay-to-win rather than slowly collecting into a viable deck. People fear that a level of monetization equal to that could be coming to D&D. 

Now, truth be told, I don't think they can MTG-ize D&D. They did the splat-of-the-month-club style of content release and it failed. D&D Beyond currently is monetized about as far as you can take table-top D&D. (Digital books, subscription rewards, virtual dice and pretty background "sheets") They might attempt to push the VTT (with purchasing minis, modules, terrain, etc.) but again, there are plenty of alternatives to that, ranging from Foundry to Roll20 to your kitchen table.


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## MostlyHarmless42 (Jan 3, 2023)

Clint_L said:


> That's what I keep wondering. Folks seem very annoyed with Hasbro/WotC, but I can't for the life of me identify anything they've done that seems egregious. Their books have always been well priced. DnDBeyond is incredibly cheap, and the micro-transactions on it actually save you money by letting you choose to buy part of a book instead of the whole thing (plus, if you change you mind later and do want the rest of it, they discount what you already paid).
> 
> All the expensive stuff in the hobby is sold by third parties like Wizkids, Dwarven Forge, Beadle&Grimm, etc.
> 
> ...



Most of the lingering hatred stems from how they handled the digital products from 4th Edition, which were largely broken, proprietary, and downright horrific to use, despite charging a subscription fee. And because Wizards didn't want competition they refuses to allow any others to get licenses to create better alternative digital tools (legally). Objectively it was a disastrous failure and was one of the contributing factors to 4th Ed floundering while other competitors were far less restrictive with their digital side of things to great effect.

To make it clear, THAT is where the basis of concern stems: Wizards has already proven in the past that they are willing to tank an entire edition if it means maintaining a delusional sense "control" over their product or if they think it'll make them even $1 more profit.

Again, when you combine this a variety of other factors (the CEO talking at length about how they view the brand as "under monetized"), and a very legitimate concern that those 3rd party people do in fact have employees, many of whom whose livelihoods will be ruined if they are no longer able to support their staff from inability to make products or paying exorbitant Liscensing fees it is healthy to be concerned about the future of the industry.

Not to mention, for those of us who've been gaming for a long time, we've seen this song and dance before with video games. First people were outraged over horse armor while some people made comments like yours asking if it was really so bad? Now we've got microtransactions, loot boxes, live-service games, and psychological manipulation/techniques being used to systematically exploit vulnerable people. And people just largely accept it as "normal" for the industry now. They know full well what they are doing, and to pretend otherwise is foolish and shortsighted. Additionally, let's say they succeed in this scheme? Whose to say the rest of the rpg industry (paizo, chaoism, etc.) won't be next?




Remathilis said:


> I'm pretty sure it stems from the Magic: The Gathering side of WotC, where the monetization of cards (both on the primay and secondary market) has made play difficult for all but the most dedicated whales. It's not just $1000 randomized proxy cards either; it's the constant churn of multiple sets (often one per month), supplemental items, card bans and meta-shakeups, and the fact that even Arena, their "free to play" MTG online system, is heavily weighted toward pay-to-win rather than slowly collecting into a viable deck. People fear that a level of monetization equal to that could be coming to D&D.
> 
> Now, truth be told, I don't think they can MTG-ize D&D. They did the splat-of-the-month-club style of content release and it failed. D&D Beyond currently is monetized about as far as you can take table-top D&D. (Digital books, subscription rewards, virtual dice and pretty background "sheets") They might attempt to push the VTT (with purchasing minis, modules, terrain, etc.) but again, there are plenty of alternatives to that, ranging from Foundry to Roll20 to your kitchen table.



That is until Wizards requires all third party VTTs to have a liscensing agreement or be unable to publish material for their new game of any kind, and then either just "forgets" or "refuses" to allow any of their direct competitors to have said licenses, or otherwise forces them to pay so large a cut they can no longer feasibly compete with their VTT. Pretty much what Amazon or Apple do with their respective markets already. And quite a number of people take issue there as well.

Remind me what they said in that press release again? That VTTs were NOT covered by the OGL and the new OGL update will clarify this? Hmm.


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## Incenjucar (Jan 3, 2023)

It is entirely possible that WotC will take its digital tools and new licensing down a bad path, and that they will use whatever means to persuade 3rd parties to follow. However, we're still running primarily on speculation, and their ability to force any of this is limited, and trying to force it would likely backfire. PnP RPGs don't offer them the same kind of control that video game developers have in creating impulse control traps.


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## Remathilis (Jan 3, 2023)

MostlyHarmless42 said:


> Most of the lingering hatred stems from how they handled the digital products from 4th Edition, which were largely broken, proprietary, and downright horrific to use, despite charging a subscription fee. And because Wizards didn't want competition they refuses to allow any others to get licenses to create better alternative digital tools (legally). Objectively it was a disastrous failure and was one of the contributing factors to 4th Ed floundering while other competitors were far less restrictive with their digital side of things to great effect.
> 
> To make it clear, THAT is where the basis of concern stems: Wizards has already proven in the past that they are willing to tank an entire edition if it means maintaining a delusional sense "control" over their product or if they think it'll make them even $1 more profit.
> 
> ...




While healthy scepticism is welcomed, this borders on Paranoia. It assumes WotC is outright lying about its intentions and that once the door is open, every other company (Paizo? Really?) Will step through it too. 

WotC isn't stupid, contrary to popular belief. Getting Roll20 and other VTTs to pay for a license is far better PR than yanking it all and forcing them all onto their own. They still have to compete with other forms of entertainment, and today's gamer could move onto another hobby if they push too hard. WotC will play for the whales, but they will leave openings for others too.


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## MockingBird (Jan 3, 2023)

Doesn't Paizo already have a subscription service?


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## mamba (Jan 3, 2023)

Remathilis said:


> WotC isn't stupid, contrary to popular belief. Getting Roll20 and other VTTs to pay for a license is far better PR than yanking it all and forcing them all onto their own.



Not charging a fee in the OGL is far better PR than doing so, yet here we are.

I grant you that the OGL is the more esoteric issue for most people, many more are aware of VTTs

No idea where you got forcing Paizo, Kobold and others onto the WotC VTT either


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## Uni-the-Unicorn! (Jan 3, 2023)

I can’t answer this poll for the answer depends on what is included with the subscription.


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## MostlyHarmless42 (Jan 4, 2023)

Remathilis said:


> While healthy scepticism is welcomed, this borders on Paranoia. It assumes WotC is outright lying about its intentions and that once the door is open, every other company (Paizo? Really?) Will step through it too.
> 
> WotC isn't stupid, contrary to popular belief. Getting Roll20 and other VTTs to pay for a license is far better PR than yanking it all and forcing them all onto their own. They still have to compete with other forms of entertainment, and today's gamer could move onto another hobby if they push too hard. WotC will play for the whales, but they will leave openings for others too.



And personally I think you are not weary enough. Or perhaps have far more faith in a handful of out of touch executives to not make shortsighted decisions in pursuit of higher profit margins and the delusions of infinite growth... ya know, like _every_ other corporation out there?

But hey, when you're paying a monthly fee to even play the game and buying "class packs" using some asinine fake currency like "astral diamonds" and your players are buying magic items against your wishes as a DM using "loot chests" (assuming of course you haven't been replaced by AI DMs at this point), you've only yourself to blame for not being "paranoid" enough to have seen it coming. I for one will not celebrate the painful death of another loved hobby at the hands of corporate greed's corrupting influence over the course of several years. That's one pot this particular frog won't just keep swimming in until I'm already boiled.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jan 5, 2023)

mamba said:


> Not charging a fee in the OGL is far better PR than doing so, yet here we are.
> 
> I grant you that the OGL is the more esoteric issue for most people, many more are aware of VTTs
> 
> No idea where you got forcing Paizo, Kobold and others onto the WotC VTT either



The fee requires making a lot of money, and terms it’s under have not come out yet


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## MNblockhead (Jan 5, 2023)

MostlyHarmless42 said:


> But hey, when you're paying a monthly fee to even play the game and buying "class packs" using some asinine fake currency like "astral diamonds" and your players are buying magic items against your wishes as a DM using "loot chests" (assuming of course you haven't been replaced by AI DMs at this point), you've only yourself to blame for not being "paranoid" enough to have seen it coming. I for one will not celebrate the painful death of another loved hobby at the hands of corporate greed's corrupting influence over the course of several years. That one pot this particular frog won't just keep swimming in until I'm already boiled.



I don't see this happening, especially "buying magic items against your wishes as a DM using 'loot chests'", but I have no crystal ball. I could be wrong. But I see no reason for worry much less fall into paranoia. One game is not the hobby. Even if they stop printing books and create the VTT hellscape some are worried about, there are older versions of D&D. If they stop making those legally available on DMs Guild, there are lots of great games built based off the open license. There are also lots of great TTRPGs in the fantasy genre, and many other genres, that are not D&D at all. 

So if they do all of this stuff, either they will see a huge drop in engagement and customers and will backpedal or lots of people will be perfectly happy with the new way of playing D&D and I'll just move to a retroclone or another system. 

I follow these discussion because I find the business developments interesting and some posters have insightful things to say about them. But despite the many hours and dollars I've sunk into D&D since 2014, I still feel like I have very little skin in the game in terms of whatever WotC decides to do with it. And, so far, I'm liking what I see. I engage in much more hand wringing when spending my money on certain streaming services, my tech devices, my travel, or my clothes than I do on my gaming stuff. Hasbro/WotC is one of the most benign corporations I spend money on. About the worst I see them doing in the near future is making a product I'm no longer interested in paying for. Really hard for me to work up any angst about any of this.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jan 5, 2023)

MostlyHarmless42 said:


> And personally I think you are not weary enough. Or perhaps have far more faith in a handful of out of touch executives to not make shortsighted decisions in pursuit of higher profit margins and the delusions of infinite growth... ya know, like _every_ other corporation out there?
> 
> But hey, when you're paying a monthly fee to even play the game and buying "class packs" using some asinine fake currency like "astral diamonds" and your players are buying magic items against your wishes as a DM using "loot chests" (assuming of course you haven't been replaced by AI DMs at this point), you've only yourself to blame for not being "paranoid" enough to have seen it coming. I for one will not celebrate the painful death of another loved hobby at the hands of corporate greed's corrupting influence over the course of several years. That's one pot this particular frog won't just keep swimming in until I'm already boiled.



This is just pointless paranoia.

I would need some actual evidence and precedence to worry about stuff like that.


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## Cadence (Jan 5, 2023)

Depends on what I think of the ethics/morals of the company's actions at the time.  Could very easily become $0 if they seem to have veered to scummy.  Could be $15 or so otherwise.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jan 5, 2023)

$10/month is the absolute limit for me if you're charging for any content at all separately. And to get that you'd need to give me some really good tools and a bunch of content.

I could see $15 only if absolutely every single piece of WotC content was included and the tools were truly spectacular. Like DDI levels of functionality with a great UI, and super-responsive. Which isn't going to happen.


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## hedgeknight (Jan 5, 2023)

I chose the $10/month option because I'm a sucker for a good gaming magazine. Yes, one you can hold in your hands and flips through the pages over and over again until they are about to fall out. Unfortunately, I haven't found a good one in a very long time. But...the search continues. (Hint: I'm open to suggestions.)
I have zero (0) interest in VTT, or watching other people game on Twitch and YouTube. Zero. Since a lot of old timers like myself are getting harder to find, I do nearly all of my gaming in pbp (play-by-post) forums, to which I contribute annually for server upkeep and fees. 
I could care less DnD Beyond, One D&D, and whatever comes after that. I'm going backwards, folks. 
But if that's your jam, good gaming to you, I say!


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## Clint_L (Jan 5, 2023)

MostlyHarmless42 said:


> But hey, when you're paying a monthly fee to even play the game and buying "class packs" using some asinine fake currency like "astral diamonds" and your players are buying magic items against your wishes as a DM using "loot chests" (assuming of course you haven't been replaced by AI DMs at this point)...



So...how would WotC make all this stuff happen? Like, what would be their mechanism? Will they have teams of thugs that show up at my house and force me let my players use "astral diamonds" to buy legendary items and stuff? Or maybe to replace me with the AI? I don't understand how this is supposed to work. Or how this would make money for WotC.

I think it probably just means that they will have a VTT like Roll 20, but hopefully a lot easier to use for stupid people like me. And they will probably let you have a simple version of it for free, but charge you for additional assets, like adventure packs including all the maps and monsters and stuff. They'll probably have a basic character icon generator that is super cheap or free, but charge extra to get bells and whistles for your character. And it's all optional. If you want nothing to do with post 1974 technology, you'll still be able to play D&D with books, paper, pencils, and dice.


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## Remathilis (Jan 5, 2023)

MostlyHarmless42 said:


> And personally I think you are not weary enough. Or perhaps have far more faith in a handful of out of touch executives to not make shortsighted decisions in pursuit of higher profit margins and the delusions of infinite growth... ya know, like _every_ other corporation out there?
> 
> But hey, when you're paying a monthly fee to even play the game and buying "class packs" using some asinine fake currency like "astral diamonds" and your players are buying magic items against your wishes as a DM using "loot chests" (assuming of course you haven't been replaced by AI DMs at this point), you've only yourself to blame for not being "paranoid" enough to have seen it coming. I for one will not celebrate the painful death of another loved hobby at the hands of corporate greed's corrupting influence over the course of several years. That's one pot this particular frog won't just keep swimming in until I'm already boiled.



Pure paranoia.

D&D is not a video game. Unless they completely remove dice, physical books and living DMs from the game, your idea is impossible.


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## Scribe (Jan 5, 2023)

Cadence said:


> Depends on what I think of the ethics/morals of the companies action at the time.  Could very easily become $0 if they seem to have veered to scummy.




Upon further consideration, I'm going from a likely $0, to 'actively give money to anyone that competes with them'.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jan 5, 2023)

Scribe said:


> Upon further consideration, I'm going from a likely $0, to 'actively give money to anyone that competes with them'.



I feel people are getting ahead of themselves.


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## Knorrrssk (Jan 5, 2023)

I can't answer the question without knowing what the subscription would include.
If it unlocked all digital content on D&D beyond for me to use and run games with then up to £10 a month. If it was more than that I might still do so but only if I was actively running a campaign right at that moment.
If it basically worked the same as it does now, where I have to buy digital versions of content alongside the physical versions I already have and at the same price (but maybe with more tools), then £0; not interested thanks.


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## mamba (Jan 5, 2023)

MonsterEnvy said:


> The fee requires making a lot of money, and terms it’s under have not come out yet



true, doesn’t change what I said though imo. Also, if the latest development is true, my original take was peanuts compared to what is coming


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## Scribe (Jan 5, 2023)

MonsterEnvy said:


> I feel people are getting ahead of themselves.



We will see.


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## LordEntrails (Jan 5, 2023)

$0. I don't do subscriptions. I buy outright, or I don't buy at all. Besides, I have so much D&D content I can play for several lifetimes without buying anything new. (But, I do keep buying...)


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## Scribe (Jan 5, 2023)

MonsterEnvy said:


> I feel people are getting ahead of themselves.



As of today, I don't think so at all.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jan 5, 2023)

Scribe said:


> As of today, I don't think so at all.



Nope still are.


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