# Scout Skirmish Ability Question



## Swedish Chef (Dec 31, 2010)

Greetings all.

I'm looking for a bit of input here. A question came up in our last session concerning the Scout's Skirmish ability and how it works with additional attacks. This is 3.5 Edition.

Basically, the player believes that once he can make additional attacks in a round, he automatically can move 10 feet and add his skirmish bonus to all attacks.

For example, he has just reached 4th level. He wants to take the Rapid Shot feat and then be able to move 10 feet a round and fire 2 arrows, thereby gaining +1d6 damage to each shot for his skirmish ability.

I'm the DM. Now, before anyone states "You're the DM, you make the rules", I want it to be clear that the group does abide by my rulings in game, but we do discuss issues afterward to clarify. We have discussed it, but the player does not fully understand all the rules (I'm trying to lay it out simply for him, but this game is anything but simple at times!), so at the request of a third player, I'm posting here in a "neutral site" to get feedback to hopefully help him understand better.

According to the Rapid Shot feat, you must use the Full Attack in order to fire the extra arrow. According to the PHB rules on actions in a round, a Full Attack is a Full Round Action, and therefore he would not be able to move the 10 feet required to use the feat, as you are limited to only a 5 foot step in that instance.

The player's contention is that if he must use a Full Attack all the time to gain his additional attacks, he is being unfairly penalized vis-a-vis his skirmish ability as he will never be able to utilize it unless he makes single attacks. He also believes that the write up for the skirmish ability allows for him to make multiple attacks without penalty. I believe it to be just a bit of ambiguous writing, but the section in question is :"She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet. The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the scout’s turn."

My contention is that the designers did that specifically to try and maintain balance. Further to that, there are specific feats that *will* allow him to make multiple attacks as a standard action (Manyshot is one example, and I've not looked for a melee feat, but I suspect there is at least one). Further, the write up in the skirmish section that mentions attacks (plural) is there simply to clarify that *if* the scout has the ability to make multiple attacks as a *standard* action, then the bonus damage would apply to all those attacks that round, provided the scout moved the required distance.

So, I leave it to ENWorld to weigh in on this. Whose interpretation of the rules is correct?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 31, 2010)

You're correct.  Normally if you full attack, you cannot move more than 5 ft, making Skirmish impossible.  *However*, there are many, many methods to move 10 or more ft in a round and still have a full round action to use Rapid Shot with.  What those options are depend on the books you allow (Magic Item Compendium on its own opens up at least 4 different items to move the necessary distance or gain an extra 5 ft step on top of the one normally allowed as a swift action; all havingl imited uses/day, of course) and if he has any spellcasters willing to help him out (lots of spells to help him move without expending any action on his part).


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## Forged Fury (Dec 31, 2010)

Essentially, what StreamOfTheSky said.

Note that *Greater* Manyshots is required to get skirmish attack on each arrow if he wants to move around normally. Skirmish damage is considered precision damage and Manyshots is considered a volley attack. Volleys only apply precision damage to the first attack in the volley that hits. Greater Manyshots explicitly allows each attack to apply precision damage.

There are many tricks that allow a Scout to move 10' or 20' in a round and still get a full attack. The most popular one seems to be picking up the Travel Domain and then swapping it for Travel Devotion in Complete Champion. It allows you to move your speed as a swift action a limited number of times/day. A strict melee way to do it is usually to pick up a class or race that gives the Pounce ability, allowing you to full-attack on the end of a charge.

As long as you're flexible with the definition of what counts as "moving," there are a number of spells/psionic effects that grant swift action teleporting.


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## krupintupple (Dec 31, 2010)

as everyone else already said anything of real value, i'll just chime in and say that your player inadvertently discovered why rogues > scouts.

skirmish is nice, as you can do it nearly every round as it has few conditions. sneak attack is harder to pull off, but works a lot nicer.


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## Eman Resu (Dec 31, 2010)

but the class as written is intended for skirmish to apply to only 1 attack
as written the Scout runs up to an enemy attacks and then stands there until next melee round where he can attack again without skirmish damage or run away possibly getting AoO.

Is it just me or does this class seem to not be thought out. I like the premise but they need to add in a shot on the run or run by attack, class feature.  As is the Scout is left standing next to opponents after attacking unless he buys feats to offset the classes shortcummins such as , shot on the run, spring attack, then bounding assault, or mounted ride by attack.

Ambiguity seems to be the lay of the land. Try to explain by RAW what happens to a Doppelgangers belongings while changing form.


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## Forged Fury (Dec 31, 2010)

Eman Resu said:


> I like the premise but they need to add in a shot on the run or run by attack, class feature.



Well... not quite the same thing, but Spring Attack and Shot on the Run (as well as their prerequisites) are offered as bonus feats the scout may take at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels. So it does seem they at least thought about it.

Also, errata changed it so a mount's movement does not count to generate skirmish damage, so ride by attack wouldn't do anything for you.

I'm not a big fan of melee scouts unless you can get Pounce and a swift action teleport.


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## Dandu (Dec 31, 2010)

> Is it just me or does this class seem to not be thought out.



Yes, that happens a lot.


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## Swedish Chef (Dec 31, 2010)

Eman Resu said:


> but the class as written is intended for skirmish to apply to only 1 attack
> as written the Scout runs up to an enemy attacks and then stands there until next melee round where he can attack again without skirmish damage or run away possibly getting AoO.
> 
> Is it just me or does this class seem to not be thought out. I like the premise but they need to add in a shot on the run or run by attack, class feature.  As is the Scout is left standing next to opponents after attacking unless he buys feats to offset the classes shortcomings such as , shot on the run, spring attack, then bounding assault, or mounted ride by attack.




Yes and no. The way I read it, you can take a 5 foot step pretty much any time. We allow that, provided you do not provoke an attack of opportunity. So, in most cases, if the scout wishes to melee an opponent, he would move, attack, then 5 foot step straight back, hopefully out of reach. Assuming the opponent is otherwise engaged, he won't be able to follow, allowing the scout to again move, attack and 5 foot step next round. Not always an ideal combat situation, but by holding their attack until later, or engaging solo enemies, it works quite well.

In our case, the scout is specializing in bow, so he rarely goes into melee. He's forever running around the edge of combat, firing into melee and generally causing havoc, which is his intended role. He receives his bonus dice regularly. He just wants more of them.


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## Forged Fury (Dec 31, 2010)

To the OP: Also make sure to check the Errata. The text you are referencing has been updated. It now reads:


She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet away from where she was at the start of her turn. The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted.


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## Forged Fury (Dec 31, 2010)

Swedish Chef said:


> Yes and no. The way I read it, you can take a 5 foot step pretty much any time. We allow that, provided you do not provoke an attack of opportunity. So, in most cases, if the scout wishes to melee an opponent, he would move, attack, then 5 foot step straight back, hopefully out of reach.



It's certainly your game, but that's most definitely not RAW. Per the SRD:


> You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 31, 2010)

Eman Resu said:


> but the class as written is intended for skirmish to apply to only 1 attack




Why?

Core Rogue can get full attack sneak attacks, and skirmish is already only half of the bonus damage that sneak attack grants.  If your goal is to make Scout unplayably awful, then yeah, I guess the intent is "clear."

Skirmish even explicitly says on "all attacks" after moving 10 ft, so I'm really interested to hear why you think the intent is only once/round no matter what.


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## Forged Fury (Dec 31, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> I'm really interested to hear why you think the intent is only once/round no matter what.



Not sure about the OP but...

Using the resources that were available at the time the Scout class was created (PHB, DMG, MM, CWar, CArc, I think?) I have to agree with the OP that it was difficult (ignoring Greater Manyshot from XPH) to get a scout to generate skirmish damage on more than one attack per round, mainly because it was somewhat difficult to generate a Full Attack and move 10' in the same round without abilities available in later books like CC (Travel Devotion), CPsi (Dimension Hop), or the MIC (Anklets of Translocation and probably 5 or 6 more items).

Edit: Also, as to the Rogue, I think the designers thought the largely ranged nature of the scout class would make the ability to have skirmish available for iterative attacks at range overpowered. A rogue might be able to pull off full-attack ranged SA during the surprise round when everything was flatfooted, but was unlikely to be able to do that again during thae rest of the encounter. If the rogue wanted to get their SA, they were getting close enough to get hit in return.

I'm just happy that there are ways of getting around the problem through feats, spells, and powers.


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## Eman Resu (Jan 1, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Why?
> 
> Core Rogue can get full attack sneak attacks, and skirmish is already only half of the bonus damage that sneak attack grants. If your goal is to make Scout unplayably awful, then yeah, I guess the intent is "clear."
> 
> Skirmish even explicitly says on "all attacks" after moving 10 ft, so I'm really interested to hear why you think the intent is only once/round no matter what.




unaware of updated info but the original class was suppose to move and strike, be this out


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## Runestar (Jan 1, 2011)

Scout is a bit of a contradiction in that aspect. Yes, skirmish can apply to multiple attacks, but the onus is on you to acquire pounce or greater manyshot by yourself, since the class doesn't give you the ability to make more than 1 attack after a move.

Seems like a testbed for a sneak attack variant, is it worth it if you can make only 1 SA each round if it were more consistent?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 1, 2011)

Runestar said:


> Seems like a testbed for a sneak attack variant, is it worth it if you can make only 1 SA each round if it were more consistent?




Until Deadeye Shot came along. 

To be fair, before that 3.0 had Quicker than the Eye.  God I loved that feat, the fact it wasn't updated was a travesty, not many DMs would allow 3.0 stuff.

The thing is...it's NOT much more consistent.  Yeah, you can get it at least once every round if you want.  But it still is foiled by all the stupid bs that sneak attack is, which IME more often than not was the real cause of being "unreliable."  Swift Hunter feat of course helped fix this, Swift Hunter s just the holy grail class rebalancing.  At mid levels, with Arcane Trickster or some other caster hybrid, or even later on with a ring of blinking, full attack sneak attack became fairly easy to get at range or in melee...just so long as the massive list of no-nos (undead, construct, oozes, plants, fog, fortification armor, night time, swarms...) didn't come up.


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## Dandu (Jan 1, 2011)

Even then, a weapon with a Wand Chamber and wands of Grave/Golem/Vinestrike could be used.


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## Empirate (Jan 1, 2011)

Even right when Complete Adventurer came out, there were methods of getting several skirmish attacks per round off - namely, Attacks of Opportunity. Nowhere does it say that you have to take your skirmish attacks on your turn. Scouts probably invest into Dex a lot, anyway, so they'd be well advised to pick up a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes!
Think of it as a concept along the lines of "On the field of battle, I go where I'm needed most, then hold that position for a short time before moving on. This way, the enemy can never pin me down - but I can pin them down first here, then there, then over there...".


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## Forged Fury (Jan 1, 2011)

Empirate said:


> Nowhere does it say that you have to take your skirmish attacks on your turn.



The original text of the Skirmish ability stated:


> "The extra damage only applies to attacks taken during the scout's turn."



Which would seem to be a point against your argument. While it's not entirely clear, the errata seems to have corrected that problem and now says that skirmish damage applies to any attack made by the scout after they have moved 10' in a round. It's one of the reasons it's good to have a high Initiative modifier and a reach weapon, if that's your thing.


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## Empirate (Jan 1, 2011)

So I was technically wrong, but Errata made me right again? Hmm, that's what I get for not consulting my books before I post - narrow escape there... thanks for clarifying, Forged Fury!


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 1, 2011)

It's an easy thing to confuse, because again, it's something you can do with sneak attack (get it on AoOs).  I'm glad the eratta removed that line, though I still dislike it for not allowing the juke n' jive or the Mongol horse archer.


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## Swedish Chef (Jan 1, 2011)

Forged Fury said:


> It's certainly your game, but that's most definitely not RAW. Per the SRD:




You are correct. I misspoke when I typed that in. We had actually clarified that rule as well about 3 sessions ago. I'm afraid I was suffering from C.R.A.F.T. when I typed that! 

From what I have read on this thread, the consensus appears to be the following:

1) My interpretation of the rules is correct, and a scout at low levels suffers from "lack of ability" by design, so to speak.
2) There are ways around this, even at relatively low level, provided you have the correct feats or access to the correct spells.
3) As the scout gets higher in level and has access to more feats and magic items, he will become quite the combat force. He just needs to be a bit patient.

I should note that the player's younger sister is playing the party sorcerer. Unfortunately for him, she's playing a pyromancer type of character - almost all her spells are fire based! He's in for a bit of a rough time getting access to the appropriate spells! 

I played a couple of years ago, taking a break from DM duty for a while. I chose to play a ranger specializing in bow, aiming for Order of the Bow Initiate (although the revamped version in 3.5 was a bit nerfed from the 3.0 version, IMO). I ran into the same sort of problems. Until about 5th level, I was as dangerous to my own party as I was to the enemy when firing into melee. Around 5th level that started to balance out (especially with the Precise Shot feat). Once I hit about 10th level or so (I don't remember the exact level), and I had Rapid Shot, Precise Shot and Manyshot, I was doing average damage that equaled the party Barbarian! And since I usually set up 60 or 70 feet away from melee, I was rarely hit in return (the odd enemy spellcaster was still an issue, but not much).

Part of the issue here is that the player is the son of one of the other players. He has grown up in the video game age. WoW and other games give you so much so fast that your character is a force almost from the start. For the rest of the group, we started with AD&D or OD&D, so we're used to waiting for our power levels to increase. We don't look down on the player in question. We're simply using this as a means of teaching the game to the next generation. I encourage him to question the rules, as sometimes a fresh set of eyes will find issues that us grognards may overlook or take for granted! And how better to learn a game than to read and question the rules for the game? 

Anyway, thanks for everyone's input. I look forward to any more points of interest, and I'm sure we'll be back for more advice as time goes on!


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 1, 2011)

Swedish Chef said:


> Part of the issue here is that the player is the son of one of the other players. He has grown up in the video game age. WoW and other games give you so much so fast that your character is a force almost from the start. For the rest of the group, we started with AD&D or OD&D, so we're used to waiting for our power levels to increase. We don't look down on the player in question. We're simply using this as a means of teaching the game to the next generation. I encourage him to question the rules, as sometimes a fresh set of eyes will find issues that us grognards may overlook or take for granted! And how better to learn a game than to read and question the rules for the game?




If he wants a faster path to awesome damage dealing as a scout, he should trade in those archery feats for the two weapon fighting tree and dip a level in Barbarian for Pounce (the Lion totem variant in Complete Champion).  Doesn't take long at all to achieve and will do better damage than archery both immediately and in the long term.  Heck, dragon magazine even had a "Dashing Step" Barbarian variant to further make that dip pay dividends.  You don't suffer -2 AC for charging.  Kinda obscure though, and sort of cheesy.  You suffer no drawback for it until Barb 3 (you lose Trap Sense, and starting at level 3 the Trap Sense bonus instead adds to AC against AoOs caused by charging).  Anyway...

For both scouts and archers, and ESPECIALLY scout archers, in 3E you need a while to get all your feats going to make archery useful, and even if you're patient and wait...even later on you'll *never* become a "force" compared to other classes.  Melee will grotesquely outdamage you and eventually gain cheap access to fly spells buffs/potions/items to make your whole "I can always attack no matter the scenario" benefit kinda moot.  Spellcasters will absolutely dwarf you and all other noncasters at later levels as their spellpower increases exponentially.  Scouts and archers (and again, especially scouts who are archers) do reliable, decent damage and can seldom be completely shut down (Wind Wall excepted, but that spell's crazy broken, IMO), but they never get "really good."  You just sort of have to accept that you'll always be mediocre when you play such a class, or otherwise pick something else.


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## Empirate (Jan 1, 2011)

Getting the Splitting enchantment on your bow, and some of the juicy archery related spells in Champions of Ruin, will make your archer quite competent at dealing damage, really. Damage reduction will always remain a problem, but other than that, you can contribute well enough.

Note that you still need to optimize heavily to make your archer worthwhile. Also, *Scout *archers in particular are not that great. Swift Hunter with a majority of Ranger levels (as opposed to actual Scout levels...) makes a world of difference. Especially if you can get the Sword of the Arcane Order feat or simply a Mystic Ranger variant in the first place. But you'll be pretty feat-starved.

A good dip for archers, surprisingly, is Barbarian, at least the Whirling Frenzy variant: +2 to hit (via Dex increase), +2 damage (via Str increase), and an extra attack that works like Rapid Shot and stacks with that - what's not to love?


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## Dandu (Jan 1, 2011)

Force enchantment solves your DR related problems.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 2, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Force enchantment solves your DR related problems.




It should also solve the wind wall problem, although some people disagree for reasons I can't comprehend.



Empirate said:


> A good dip for archers, surprisingly, is Barbarian, at least the Whirling Frenzy variant: +2 to hit (via Dex increase), +2 damage (via Str increase), and an extra attack that works like Rapid Shot and stacks with that - what's not to love?




Unless you have an adjustable strength rating bow or carry a bow specifically for use while in whirling frenzy (expensive to maintain two bows later on), you're likely not getting the +2 damage.  And without a feat (Extra Rage) or a spell/wand buff (Blood Frenzy spell, Druid 2, in Spell Compendium), it's only 1/day.  It's a decent dip, but especially if doing Swift Hunter not neccessarily worth it.  On the other hand, Whirling Frenzy + pounce + possibly Dashing Step makes Barb dip for a melee scout still better yet, thanks for reminding me.


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## Empirate (Jan 2, 2011)

On a Barbarian dip, Extra Rage is of course assumed. But thanks for reminding me - archer types are generally feat starved, so Extra Rage might be hard to fit in.
And you're right about the adjustability of your bow's pull. At mid levels up, I'll usually go for a Composite Bow that's +2 better than I can handle with my own Str, assuming either Whirling Frenzy or Bull's Strength to come my way. But it can be skipped, Whirling Frenzy is good even without the damage boost.

And yeah, 1 level of Barbarian is, in fact, a mandatory dip for every melee build except ToB stuff.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Jan 2, 2011)

Couldn't you just take levels in Dervish and use the Dervish Dance ability to get skirmish damage on all your attacks?


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## Eman Resu (Jan 3, 2011)

Ogrork the Mighty said:


> Couldn't you just take levels in Dervish and use the Dervish Dance ability to get skirmish damage on all your attacks?





what like whirlwind attack?
the main problem is a ya cant move more than 5' and get full round, class not thought out.
even if you find a way to attack after moving 10' or more then your left standing there toe to toe until your next init. 
I read up bounding assault (spring attacks big brother) and two wep strike and those are the only feats I know of that allow two attacks after a move, and bounding ass. allows you to move after attack as spring attack does.  

Everybody seems to have asnswers to fix the scouts main problem -as written it cant work! But all the solutions are in magazines or off-core books, or some expensive magic item the pc will never see. We use the complete series (most) and core.

Magic items just dont grow on trees, in our low-magic campaign, the Red Wizards are the only ones with open "shops" as they kill anybody who competes. The rest of items are found in dungeons etc.

So if your a core only campaign, make a single class scout work. Without access to unique magic items. Again after reading into it, none of us can figure out how they intended this class to work, we like the idea, of a rogue/ranger combo with new class abilities but errumm do it with core and a low magic campaign.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 3, 2011)

Dervish is extremely feat heavy to enter, and not the feats a melee scout necessarily wants (Everything in the Spring Attack tree save for Spring Attack, and Weapon Focus).  And any levels in Dervish is lost skirmish progression, particularly painful if you're a Swift Hunter (also lose favored enemy progression, with favored enemies letting tell the precision damage rules to sit down and shut up).

But yeah, a few levels of Dervish is cool with Scout.  I just think that once C.Champion came out with "Pounce at level 1" Dervish sort of lost a lot of its appeal is all.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 3, 2011)

Eman Resu said:


> what like whirlwind attack?
> the main problem is a ya cant move more than 5' and get full round, class not thought out.
> even if you find a way to attack after moving 10' or more then your left standing there toe to toe until your next init.




That's why he said Dervish.  The dervish dance explicitly lets you move between attacks.  In fact, you're *required* to move at least 5 ft between each attack of your full attack, and if you can't move any more (used up all movement or hit some sort of sudden obstruction) that round, you lose any attacks you still had to make!  Dervish being in C.Warrior existed before Scout and is a great example of how from the very release of the book, scout had options to move and full attack.



Eman Resu said:


> So if your a core only campaign, make a single class scout work. Without access to unique magic items. Again after reading into it, none of us can figure out how they intended this class to work, we like the idea, of a rogue/ranger combo with new class abilities but errumm do it with core and a low magic campaign.




If you're in a core only game, Scout doesn't exist.  If C.Adventurer is allowed, assuming other books, especially other Completes, are allowed as well is fair.  I suppose you could have custom campaign set ups where Scout is worthless.... I could blanket my world in an Antimagic field and make all spellcasting worthless.  That doesn't prove anything.

Low magic campaigns are extremely unbalanced in their own right, scout's far from the only one with problems.  Casters can cast their own buffs and possibly craft items.  Noncasters in such a game just get shafted.

How does scout work?  With some planning and setup, just like the rogue.  Rogue can seldom get sneak attack all on his own, at least after the 1st round of combat.  He relies on melee buddies to flank and casters or wands to grease enemies, Invisbile or Blink him, or to summon flanking buddies.  Scout relies on spells or items to move 10+ ft without spending a move action.  Both classes can get feats and other tricks to self-serve a little, but both fare much better with party support.


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## Dandu (Jan 3, 2011)

> So if your a core only campaign, make a single class scout work. Without access to unique magic items.



Greater Manyshot was mentioned earlier.


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## frankthedm (Jan 3, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Greater Manyshot was mentioned earlier.



Expanded Psionic Handbook is not core to everyone. The feat is in the SRD because Psionic rules are OGL'ed. Thus, even though mindflayers are Product IdentityTM, the end stage of the Illithid tadpole life-cycle, the Neothelid gets to show up in Pathfinder


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## DumbPaladin (Jan 3, 2011)

If you cast celerity on yourself (obviously in this example, you are a rogue/sorcerer or rogue/wizard) AFTER you have moved 10', to give yourself an extra standard action which you use as an attack, would you essentially deal multiple attacks for that round with skirmish damage?


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## Borthos (Jan 3, 2011)

Where in C. Champion can you get pounce at first level?


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## Dandu (Jan 3, 2011)

Barbarian substitution level.


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## Swedish Chef (Jan 4, 2011)

Eman Resu said:


> what like whirlwind attack?
> the main problem is a ya cant move more than 5' and get full round, class not thought out.
> even if you find a way to attack after moving 10' or more then your left standing there toe to toe until your next init.
> I read up bounding assault (spring attacks big brother) and two wep strike and those are the only feats I know of that allow two attacks after a move, and bounding ass. allows you to move after attack as spring attack does.
> ...




You bring up an interesting problem vis-a-vis melee attacks. However, in my original post I pointed out that the player in question was going for the archery feats. 

Others have provided options for the melee attacks which should work out. It does appear that the scout has an easier time obtaining the necessary feats to move and gain skirmish attacks on all attacks if he goes the archer route, though. 

Either way, the player has several options available to him. He just needs to learn the patience required to obtain them.


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## Eman Resu (Jan 4, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> That's why he said Dervish. The dervish dance explicitly lets you move between attacks. In fact, you're *required* to move at least 5 ft between each attack of your full attack, and if you can't move any more (used up all movement or hit some sort of sudden obstruction) that round, you lose any attacks you still had to make! Dervish being in C.Warrior existed before Scout and is a great example of how from the very release of the book, scout had options to move and full attack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We do use core, complete series (most), Unearthed Arcana, Psionic books and the PhB2


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