# Star Wars What I Would Have Done



## Zardnaar (Feb 10, 2019)

Well recently the financials have come in and Star Wars it seems may not be in a good place. Toy sales are not good, Solo lost money, TLJ made quite a bit less than TFA and probably contributed to Solo being a flop. Several planned movies are either cancelled or AFK.

 Some of the new Disney cannon has been well received, TLJ has caused a bit of a stir. Getting past the hyperbole I do not think TLJ is the worst SW movie of all time (Attack of the CLnes and Phantom Menace say hi), but it is problematic on several levels. This is combined with several other things Disney has done that in hind sight may not have been a great idea and even at the time I wondered what they were thinking. The two major balls up seems to be.

1. Not having the new trilogy mapped out at least in broad terms.
2. Letting Rian Johnson do whatever the hell he wanted.

 Apparently Abrams did leave  a map for episode VIII behind, but Johnson ignored it. Having rewatched Episode VII again recently Abrams did plant a lot of interesting plot hooks behind that were either not followed up on or were trashed. I don't think Disney has done a universally bad job of things and there are things like Rebels and Rogue One that I think hold up very well. Anyway here is what I would have done differently.

1. Burning Down the Old Expanded Universe.

 The old EU was a mixed bag. The best of it is generally well regarded by the fans but there was some utter trash. I can understand why Disney burned it down. A big problem though for Disney is they have been reinserting a lot of it back into the new canon or some of the new characters seem to be pale imitations of previous EU characters that are even less interesting. Thrawn for example turned up in Rebels along with Inquisitors and Kylo Ren seems to be based off Jacen Solo and Ben Skywalker. The old EU arguably reinvigorated Star Wars for a new audience back in 1991 as in the late 80's Star Wars was functionally dead. For the most part they built on the original movies and the fans here were probably some of the most fanatical SW fans you can find. The ones that what in line for 24+ hours for tickets to The Phantom Menace or still like the Thrawn trilogy as the pinnacle of the old EU. If I acquired rights to Star Wars I would have cherry picked the EU for the new canon (yes i would have retconned the old post Endor EU as well). I would have used a scalpel though rather than an atomic bomb and I would have left the ancient past such as the Knights of the Old Republic era as canon along with some of the better pre endor novels, games an comics. I might have even diverged the EU after the Thrawn books and kept ideas such as Luke building a new Jedi Academy. Note the core plot line of the First Order could still work with the first 5 years or so of the old EU. Dark Empire did kind of need to die in a bonfire. The Battle of Jakku could have occurred after Thrawn was defeated and the Empire sues for peace. The Old Republic, Darth Plageius, and Darth Bane etc would have remained canon. The new canon avoids the lows of the old (Aftermath trilogy apparently not good), but has failed to deliver a new Thrawn trilogy equivalent (or Rogue Squadron, or Bane trilogy or KoToR, or....). The height of the new canon is the Darth Vader comics, which could have been done in the old EU as well. 

2. Video Games
 There was a brief time when the golden age of Star Wars video games happened. This was approximately 1999-2009 or so. 2009 was also the last time a great Star Wars video game was made (The Force Unleashed). Since then there have only been a handful of Games made- The Old Republic and Battlefront I and II. That 10 year period saw most of the classic Star Wars game released (with a few from 1994+ such as TIE Fighter). This includes things such as Jedi Knight, Rebellion, Galaxies, Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2, the original Battlefield (Battlefront) I and II, Empire at War and the Force Unleashed. The sub standard EA games short term are making money but EA shares have halved in the last year due to several titles under performing and may be inflicting long term damage on the brand. It has been a decade since we have had a good to great star Wars game. The new canon has also failed to generate a decent let alone good game. I would have licensed out individual games rather than sign an exclusive long term deal with EA. Shorterm you make money, long term you might trash the reputation and income of both the games and future Star Wars movies.

3. The Last Jedi

 In a vacuum TLJ is not to bad, its not the worst SW film IMHO. However it was a sequel that basically failed to follow up TFA, and the new characters mildly are being compared to the old ones. There are also silly things such as the Holdo Manoeuvre which involves sending a ship into hyperspace to take out something like the new bigger, better Super Star Destroyer. This is along with an entire sub plot no one cared about, and subverting the audiences expectations but in a bad way. Like it or not it was this movie that seems to have inflicted a lot of damage on the SW universe. TFA was a big hit, Solo lost money and the toys are in the doldrums. At a most basic level who is the villain for episode 9? The obvious answer is Kylo Ren but he is weaker than say Vader and the Emperor and he has been defeated multiple times. This means that if Rey defeats him it won't matter that much or they will have to come up with something clever. Rumour has it there is a new villain revealed for episode IX. Kylo is basically ineffective as a villain although maybe they will go with a redemption arc (boring) or a double turn (interesting). A double turn is Ben is redeemed and Rey goes dark. My solution would have been better world building, better character development and not doing TLJ as is. For example with Rey could could have tweaked her back ground a bit perhaps being a Jedi survivor of Kylos betrayal which would have tied her to both Luke and Kylo and explained how she was so power and you could have done it with 5 minutes of exposition. It would have also lessened the TFA is a rehash argument where she basically has the same backstory as Luke and both were on a desert planet. The Villains such as Hux, Kylo and Snoke (before TLJ) were kind of stealing the show as the new characters are less interesting than both the old ones or even the prequals (Obi Wan, Mace Windu, Jango Fett). 

4. Diversity (for diversity's sake)

 Before anyone gets all hot and bothered a lot of flak has been fired at Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy (note Abrams avoids most of this along with Rogue One with a female protagonist). If you really want to go deeper have a look at various youtube videos (you have been warned). The trolls get a lot of attention but it seems that they have upset a significant amount of the Star Wars fanbase. This is also against a back drop of similar things being done in other movies such as Ghostbusters II, Oceans 8 which also under performed. Extremists on both sides have not help the situation and broadly speaking those extremists are the anti women/diversity at all costs trolls and the ones that dismiss any justifiable criticism of Disney Star Wars. Overall I think the main problem here is the way TLJ was made over something like TFA which while perhaps a bit of a rehash largely avoided the uproar over TLJ. The difference here I think is storytelling and making something original even if its based off something else. Star Wars has always been a mixed bag when it comes to women and minorities and it often comes down to how they are written not what race/gender they are. For example Leia, Mace Windu and Lando Calrissian are probably more popular overall than say Padme, Rose and Finn. Remakes where they gender switch the old cast don't seem to be doing so well while new original stuff such as Black Panther and Game of Thrones do well. Basically diversity is great but you still need a compelling storyline and compelling characters along with a villain you love to hate (Vader, Joffrey, Cersei Lalnister etc). For example Finn comes across as a bit of a snivelling coward deep into TLJ. They perhaps dragged that character development out a bit long, compare with ANH where Han is a mercenary character but once he saves the princess, he saves Luke at the end and becomes a big time hero and in Empire he saves Luke again which feeds into his friends saving him in RotJ. If Rey was a Jedi survivor for example she has a reason why she is so powerful. A very big trope in the OT, prequels, and even the end of TFA with Kylo was training and that includes the old EU and things like games such as Knights of the Old Republic. There were more interesting female characters in the old EU, the most popular was probably Mara Jade (lukes enemy turned into wife) and Hans daughter Jaina was a lot more interesting than her brother. Strong female characters are nothing new (since 1991 at least perhaps the 80s with Lumiya) for fans of the old EU/Legends. We still have not seen a major female character that is a Jedi Knight/Master or a Sith Lord in a big screen movie (comics, games and cartoon yeah). Lumiya, Darth Zannah, Darth Treya, Jaina, Mara, Bastila Shan were all interesting. Even in the old EU sloppy writing can ruin a potentially interesting character though (Admiral Daala). 

5. World building. TFA did not do a great job of world building and TLJ did even worse. Answers have been provided in the new canon, but the movies were fairly minimal here and even the prequels were better in terms of say the Republic.  Things were kind of hinted at in the new movies but either not followed up on or fairly bare boned. For example what is the difference between the Republic and resistance in TFA. How did the First Order get so powerful and why did the Rebels drop the ball after Endor. The OT had the Galactic Empire and the Emperor but you knew they were evil and were a big threat. TFA being a sequel should have had a bit more explanation IMHO. 

 TLDR version. More effort in world building, character development, somewhat logical in universe explanations with way better followup on plot points JJ Abrams cleverly weaved into TFA would have avoided a lot of problems.


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## Umbran (Feb 11, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Well recently the financials have come in and Star Wars it seems may not be in a good place. Toy sales are not good, Solo lost money, TLJ made quite a bit less than TFA and probably contributed to Solo being a flop.




The Last Jedi grossed more than a *billion* dollars over its production budget.  There is no reason to see this as not doing spectacularly.  Did it make less than TFA?  Yes.  But pretty much every sequel makes less than the first in a series.  This is not a cause for concern.

Lucasfilm/Disney are probably realizing that yearly releases of movies saturates the market.

There is no such thing as, "diversity for diversity's sake."  It is diversity for the sake of those who are not represented, and of the sake of those who need to learn that there are many kinds of people, all valuable.  Failing to represent humanity is a failing.  

Oh, and by the way, from 2014 to 2018, female-led films outperformed male-led movies at the box office.  So, it is at worst diversity for the sake of selling more tickets.


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## Shasarak (Feb 11, 2019)

I dont really get their definition of female-led films:

Here is their list in descending order of revenue:

Star Wars: The Force Awakens, Jurassic World, Star Wars: The Last Jedi, Avengers: Age of Ultron, Furious 7, Beauty and the Beast, The Fate of the Furious, Captain America: Civil War, Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, Zootopia, Finding Dory


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## Zardnaar (Feb 11, 2019)

Umbran said:


> The Last Jedi grossed more than a *billion* dollars over its production budget.  There is no reason to see this as not doing spectacularly.  Did it make less than TFA?  Yes.  But pretty much every sequel makes less than the first in a series.  This is not a cause for concern.
> 
> Lucasfilm/Disney are probably realizing that yearly releases of movies saturates the market.
> 
> ...




 I don't think the problem is female lead films at all. Or even diverse films (Wonder Women, Black Panther) but it boils down to story telling. If I was the grand high poobah I would have had a female lead or female villain because we still have not seen a major female Jedi Knight/master or Sith Lord (lady). We know they exist both in legends and canon.

 Also note that TFA and Rogue One dodge most of the flak. 

 Star Wars fatigue I think is a thing. It used to be a once a decade thing with 3 years between films, 

 Mostly I just blame The Last Jedi, the prequels had their problems but they told a coherent story. The big problem with the new ones IMHO is you don't tend to care about the characters so whatever they are doing doesn't matter as much.

 Even in the prequels you had things like Fett, Obi Wan, Palpatine or even Anakin in the RotS when he cut down the younglings. Another way of putting it would be look at Phsma, she was potentially very great and what did they do with her? Both Luke and Vader went through trials and tribulations losing limbs in the 2nd movie. Without that character development/vulnerability I think you lose that connection to the films.


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## cmad1977 (Feb 11, 2019)

Oof. So glad the reigns are in someone else’s hands.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 11, 2019)

Umbran said:


> The Last Jedi grossed more than a *billion* dollars over its production budget.  There is no reason to see this as not doing spectacularly.  Did it make less than TFA?  Yes.  But pretty much every sequel makes less than the first in a series.  This is not a cause for concern.
> 
> Lucasfilm/Disney are probably realizing that yearly releases of movies saturates the market.
> 
> ...




TFA got 2 billion And they made 700 million profit on that.

 See how TLJ "only" getting 1.3 billion may be a problem. Solo lost money first time ever for a SW film.

 Hopefully Episode IX will be better, JJ Abrams is usually fairly reliable.


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## ccs (Feb 11, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> I dont really get their definition of female-led films:
> 
> Here is their list in descending order of revenue:




*Star Wars: The Force Awakens,* - Ok, I can see that.  Ensemble cast, but the lead character was female & the story largely hers....  

*Jurassic World,* - I guess you could argue that?  Though I'm pretty certain Starlord had the most screen time.  Or are they counting Blue, the Indominus, & the kid in addition to whats-her-name?

*Star Wars: The Last Jedi,* - Well, 1/2 the movie was still all about Rey.   

*Avengers: Age of Ultron*, - What?  How?  Last time I watched it there were a lot of guys fronting that movie.

*Furious 7,* - Well, there were more women involved storywise than in Ultron.  But I'm pretty sure I saw a action movie led by Vin Diesel, The Rock, & Stathem. 

*Beauty and the Beast*, - Yes, definitely. 

*The Fate of the Furious*, - Refer back to Furious 7.  And for good measure fast forward to whatever the next 29 instalments will be.... 

*Captain America: Civil War*, - Refer back to Avengers: Age of Ulton.... 

*Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, Zootopia, Finding Dory* - Ok


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## Blue (Feb 11, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Oh, and by the way, from 2014 to 2018, female-led films outperformed male-led movies at the box office.  So, it is at worst diversity for the sake of selling more tickets.




Thanks for posting the link.  The conventional wisdom I've heard repeated for years is that female-led films do worse in the international market so there's a real financial reason for big budget films to avoid them.  This, looking at the global returns, gives evidence that is not the case in today's market.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 11, 2019)

Blue said:


> Thanks for posting the link.  The conventional wisdom I've heard repeated for years is that female-led films do worse in the international market so there's a real financial reason for big budget films to avoid them.  This, looking at the global returns, gives evidence that is not the case in today's market.




 I've seen it argued both ways but I think it varies by year and what the top 10 movies of each year are. The top 10 movie tend to be vastly disproportionate amount of the total revenue. 

 With Star Wars and some other blockbuster movies though the numbers required to make a profit is insane. For example Solo needed to make around 500 million to break even, TFA made 2 billion but profit was m00 billion. TLJ made 1.3 billion not sure what the profit margin was. 

 The financials came out covering TLJ era and they were down 200 million from the previous year. Toy sales for Star Wars ere also down but action figures were up. Basically Marvel was selling, Star Wars was in decline. 

 For Star Wars though male fan base, middle class income (apparently).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hayley...-insights-from-demographic-data/#471672dd344a

Yay I am a stereotype. Not a lawyer though.

Legacy characters and villains are the most popular, Rey not so much, Leia is ranked high though so it doesn't seem to be male vs female. Rey is not very popular, Kylo is the most poplar out of the new characters, Leia is the second most popular overall. 

 Killing off Luke and Hand and Carrie dying IRL does create problems, all the most popular characters are gone. They can force ghost in Luke though. I probably wouldn't have killed Luke off though, if I did it would have bee in Episode IX.

If you're a hard core Star Wars fan though this probably won't go down to well.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Kat...KHcAyBcEQ9QEwAHoECAEQBA#imgrc=PnwzOMQnRCiMSM:

 The force is basically genderless in the old EU. And Rian Johnson called the fans manbabies lol. The fanbase has never really had a problem with females IMHO (see the link above about Leia), the old EU had plenty of strong female characters (the New Republic had back to back female leaders, Mon Mothma then Leia, numerous Sith/Jedi ladies/masters). I think the difference is it has to be organic. Leia was a badass who happened to be female, Rey was depicted as a badass because she was female and was presented as wonder women. Lukes also popular but he was never written as superman and he went from whiney and impulsive to Jedi Knight (and master in the EU). Leia gets wounded badly, Han gets chucked in carbonite, Luke loses a hand and gets his ass handed to him so the OT main characters had a bit of vulnerability and better character building. A lot of that was TLJ fault IMHO as Rian Johnson ignored a lot of plot point seeds in TFA and basically threw out the two people cared about the most (Snooke and Reys parents).

 This also feeds back into who is your villain for episode IX. Apparently they are adding a new one because Kylo can't really be it. He has basically lost twice (to Rey/Luke), and has gone back and forth to much so they would need to start episode IX with him kicking kittens or somethings. Luke redeeming Vader meant something along with defeating the Emperor. If Kylo is the villain and he is defeated again it doesn't mean as much- he has already been defeated twice. Vader killed Obi Wan and wrecked Luke. You need a good villain to confront the heroes this is basic storytelling 101. Its not Kylo, probably should have been Snoke that is one of the big problems of TLJ IMHO. Several obvious conclusions to IX.

1. Rey defeats Kylo.
 Yawn Kylo is ineffective villain has already been defeated twice. Vader was a badass, Kylo not so much.

2. Rey Redeems Kylo.
 Haven't we seen a redemption arc before?

 Those are the 2 obvious endings for IX, both of them don't really work that well IMHO. Some less obvious ones.

3. Rey turns to the darkside. I don't really see this happening. I don't see the villains winning which means if Rey goes dark her and Kylo get their comeuppances.

4. Double turn. Kylo is redeemed, Rey turns. 
 A screwy finish to the trilogy but perhaps the best of the bad options.

 Any other finish is going to be even more screwy than the 4th one. If Kylo is the one they needed him to look totally badass in TLJ. Had they trained him more as hinted at in the end of TFA and he picked up or discovered some new power (or even force lightning) it would have been more effective. They have painted themselves into a corner I think as they killed off the legacy characters to early IMHO, and have an ineffective villain and a hero that is not very popular. That is the main problem with TLJ and its not good for episode IX IMHO. And they basically threw Snoke and Phasma away as well. THe link I gave above also shows Kylo is more popular than Rey, Adam Driver kinda stole the spotlight.


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## Istbor (Feb 11, 2019)

You're wrong. I am a hardcore Star Wars fan, and the movies have all gone down pretty well. 

I think the problem we are seeing, is fans who take themselves or their fandom a tad too seriously.  The need to step back and realize there are new generations of characters and schools of thought emerging. 

I loved that they killed Snoke. That was one of my favorite parts of the movie. And not just because of that awesome fight directly after.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 11, 2019)

Istbor said:


> You're wrong. I am a hardcore Star Wars fan, and the movies have all gone down pretty well.
> 
> I think the problem we are seeing, is fans who take themselves or their fandom a tad too seriously.  The need to step back and realize there are new generations of characters and schools of thought emerging.
> 
> I loved that they killed Snoke. That was one of my favorite parts of the movie. And not just because of that awesome fight directly after.





 That is fine but financials don't lie. Revenue is down, Solo lost money, toy sales are down. 

 So somethings gon wrong and TLJ/Solo tend to get the flak for it. TFA and Rogue One largely avoid it and Rebels seems popular so except for the most hard core it doesn't even seem to be Disney vs Non Disney Star War's just mostly 1 movie.

 I have a lot of the old EU stuff (except toys). By that comics, books, RPGs, games. New stuff not a sausage although I have seen the movies. Mostly its not because I am boycotting Star Wars its just I don't want to do it all over again (1993-2012 or so). 

 Its not like the Aftermath Trilogy or the new EA games are actually better than the old Star Wars stuff. Hell I play a mod for a 2005 game Empire at War called Thrawns Revenge.

 Just overall I don't think the franchise is in a good spot.


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## doctorbadwolf (Feb 11, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> That is fine but financials don't lie. Revenue is down, Solo lost money, toy sales are down.
> 
> So somethings gon wrong and TLJ/Solo tend to get the flak for it. TFA and Rogue One largely avoid it and Rebels seems popular so except for the most hard core it doesn't even seem to be Disney vs Non Disney Star War's just mostly 1 movie.
> 
> ...




Surely you can see how overwhelmingly informed by your own preferences your analysis of the situation is, right? 

Solo lost money because of over-saturation, because it's a story few were asking for (even in he context of standalone stories about known characters. People would have been more interested in a Lando lead movie, or another new character like R1), because there was baffling little hype for it, and because of rushed release timing (which Disney copped to). Only die-hard Johnson/Kennedy/TLJ haters are out there blaming TLJ for Solo's performance in any significant numbers. And they're still the minority of the fandom. 

All that said, here is what (little) I would have done differently. Well, ignoring the ideas I had that would have done less well showing that Kennedy is better for her job than I'd have been. 

1. LTJ would have further developed the relationship between Rey and Fin. I love Rose, and I'd definately keep her in the film, but Rey and Fin were perfect, and I'd have kept moving with that chemistry. 

2. The old man in TFA would have been a known character. 

3. No "another death star". I'd have had them have to blow up a new droid facility, or something like that. And I'd have given more time to the space battle to get it done. 

4. I'd have kept in the deleted scene where Phasma kills her own troops in order to keep the fact that she sold out Starkiller Base from spreading. 

5. Give Rey a lightsaber pike. 

6. More diversity. 

7. No "everyone dies" in Rogue 1. Also no "I'm an assassin for the rebels and have been since I was a child" crap. This is Star Wars. If you want "there are no good guys", go somewhere else.


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## Istbor (Feb 11, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Surely you can see how overwhelmingly informed by your own preferences your analysis of the situation is, right?
> 
> Solo lost money because of over-saturation, because it's a story few were asking for (even in he context of standalone stories about known characters. People would have been more interested in a Lando lead movie, or another new character like R1), because there was baffling little hype for it, and because of rushed release timing (which Disney copped to). Only die-hard Johnson/Kennedy/TLJ haters are out there blaming TLJ for Solo's performance in any significant numbers. And they're still the minority of the fandom.
> 
> ...





I like a lot of this, but I dislike Rogue 1, becoming something other than a gritty, the world is Grey, war story.  That was a departure from the usual Star Wars camp that I really enjoyed, and I felt, helps the movie stand up well.


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## doctorbadwolf (Feb 11, 2019)

Istbor said:


> I like a lot of this, but I dislike Rogue 1, becoming something other than a gritty, the world is Grey, war story.  That was a departure from the usual Star Wars camp that I really enjoyed, and I felt, helps the movie stand up well.




I'll make no argument about whether it was a good movie. 

IMVSO, Rogue One isn't Star Wars. The Rebel Alliance does not employ assassins or child soldiers. Period.


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## ccs (Feb 11, 2019)

Istbor said:


> You're wrong. I am a hardcore Star Wars fan, and the movies have all gone down pretty well.




Well I'm a hardcore SW fan as well.  And I think the movies have gone down_hill_. 
ANH/ESB/RotJ > Episodes I-III > TFA/TLJ/Solo
R1 is the outlier in this pattern as I'd put it about 1/2way between the RotJ & Episode I.
And given the poor foundation Episode IX is built on I'm almost afraid to watch it.....


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## Istbor (Feb 11, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I'll make no argument about whether it was a good movie.
> 
> IMVSO, Rogue One isn't Star Wars. The Rebel Alliance does not employ assassins or child soldiers. Period.




I couldn't disagree more. And we can end with that.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 11, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I'll make no argument about whether it was a good movie.
> 
> IMVSO, Rogue One isn't Star Wars. The Rebel Alliance does not employ assassins or child soldiers. Period.




 Luke was basically an assassin. Palpatine while evil was basically a political assassination. A million people on the Death Star died, they would have families and even if they did not agree with everything the Empire was doing well Luke just killed their family.

 Also in both the old legends material and new canon the Rebels did resort to morally dubious things for the "greater good". Watch The Clone Wars cartoon.

 In the old legends material the New Republic basically fails again while the Empire reforms into a more or less benign military (NJO) then monarchy reign with Imperial Knights as a light side force tradition. Generally on old Legends message boards people end up preferring the Empire over the New Republic. Once the Sith influence is gone and a generation or so passes.

 Its also why Rogue One is probably so good it gets away from the Skywalker family drama (we had 25 years of the old EU for that as well), gets away from a rehash of ANH and recylced 90's metaplot that infested TFA. I enjoyed TFA but not only is ot low on originality compared with ANH its basically recycles the old here is a new Darksider with bigger and better super weapons bwa ha ha. Its essentially the plot line of a huge amount of EU stories circa 1991 (Dark Empire) through to 1998 or so.

 A question for the fans of TLJ or the new triliogy. Do you really want to go to episode IX and see Rey just steam roll everyone again and if so mind me asking whats the point? Jynn Erso had a better backstory, arguably more character development, suffered a bit with losing her dad and then made the ultimate sacrifice. She is a great character IMHO and they had a diverse and interesting cast. That is how you do it regardless of anything else IMHO at the end of the day you need to care about the characters in Star Wars. Hux and Kylo are arguably the most interesting ones left. 

 If Phasma killing her own troops was a deleted scene they should have kept it. That would have made her a great villain rather than the clown she came across as.


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## doctorbadwolf (Feb 12, 2019)

I can’t imagine disagreeing with a post more than I disagree with that post, Zardnaar. 

I’m just gonna now out. We’ve all had this argument before.


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## Eltab (Feb 12, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> 3. No "another death star". I'd have had them have to blow up a new droid facility, or something like that.



Establish that Imperial Star Destroyers are still the biggest most powerful ships around.  The new big threat is a shipyard (which is not spherical) for an updated Super Star Destroyer.  There is a keel laid, and lots of (plunderable?) ship components in and around the dock when the Heroes arrive.



> 6. More diversity.



Diversity for the sake of being diverse shows more 'tripping over own shoelaces' than 'creating better stories' or 'generating higher ticket sales'.  Maybe Disney needs to find somebody who can write a compelling story first and then bring in a wide spectrum of actors / actresses to play the parts.
In contrast, the Jedi Council in _Phantom Menace_ was diverse without saying anything about it.  Mace Windu was the greatest Jedi combat master, his physical characteristics did not matter to that.  The Council was all different aliens, the 'baseline unit' of diversity that would be recognizable in-universe.  And it worked.


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## Jester David (Feb 12, 2019)

http://geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=11006


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## Zardnaar (Feb 12, 2019)

Jester David said:


> http://geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=11006
> 
> View attachment 104727
> 
> ...




 Logical story telling with characters we care about helps. Disney Star Wars overall is fairly decent it's mostly just TLJ. 

 Rebels was really good, Leia is great same with Jynn and Hera. Asoka had also grown on me once she grew up in Rebels.

 Ripley in Aliens good new Ghostbusters bad. There's a difference.


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## doctorbadwolf (Feb 12, 2019)

Eltab said:


> Diversity for the sake of being diverse shows more 'tripping over own shoelaces' than 'creating better stories' or 'generating higher ticket sales'.  Maybe Disney needs to find somebody who can write a compelling story first and then bring in a wide spectrum of actors / actresses to play the parts.
> In contrast, the Jedi Council in _Phantom Menace_ was diverse without saying anything about it.  Mace Windu was the greatest Jedi combat master, his physical characteristics did not matter to that.  The Council was all different aliens, the 'baseline unit' of diversity that would be recognizable in-universe.  And it worked.




There is no such thing as diversity for its own sake. Diversity is for the people being represented. 

There is no dichotomy between increasing diversity and creating good stories. Period.


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## trappedslider (Feb 12, 2019)

Fans realize something Lucasfilm Ltd. does not, that robust 38-year-old billion-dollar franchises, while seemingly healthy, are in actuality as fragile as two bricks tied together with tissue paper. One mistake, one bad mis-step will cause the entire thing to shatter and fall apart; and Star Wars would be ruined forever.

Fortunately, there is hope. The Star Wars fanbase has resolved to remain ever vigilant against something that could Ruin Star Wars Forever, and call out warning if they see something that could potentially do so.

Some Star Wars conservationists suggest a more extreme approach, that Star Wars should abandon all attempts at re-invention and instead cater exclusively to the old-school fanbase. Though attractive, this approach may prove impractical as a long-term solution.

Ruined Forever remains a serious threat to Star Wars now and in the foreseeable future, though it's possible a proposed initiative requiring all Star Wars fans to purchase an annual "DVD offset" could ensure our fragile brand's existence through the mid-21st century.
Things that have Ruined Star Wars Forever in the past:
George Lucas
Darth Vader is Luke's father!
Leia is Luke's sister!
Ewoks
Those zany comics with the green bunny
The Glove of Darth Vader
Luke goes EVIL!
Kyp Durron
Callista Ming
Waru
Luke having a one-night stand
Destroyers and Dreadnaughts
Re-editing the classics
Greedo shot first
Prequel trilogy
Jar Jar Binks
Midi-chlorians
Del Rey
Races without the Force
Palpatine coming back invalidates the ending of ROTJ!
Oh no! They killed Chewbacca! You bastards!
Oh my god! They killed our favorite Jedi! You bastards!
Oh no! Anakin Solo was too young to die!
Hayden Christensen
The Republic is only 1,000 years old
Star Wars Galaxies
Darths before Bane
The Hayden Christensen ghost in ROTJ
3 million clone troopers
Force lightning, not just for Sith anymore
Torturing joiners
Jacen-In-Name-Only becomes a Sith
Boba Fettishism
Luke appoints the new Emperor
Why couldn't Luke still be alive in 137 ABY?
New Galactic Empire
Lame Darths
The Exile is female
Drew Karpyshyn's adventures in continuity
Death of Mara Jade
Jacen got killed by Jaina!
"When the legend becomes fact, print the fact."
Rick McCallum
Dave Filoni killed my continuity!
Anakin has a Padawan?!
Mindless console action with... Vader's apprentice? WTF?
KOTOR/Dark Times/Rebellion/Legacy crossover
OMFG, why is that brain-damaged Imperial war criminal Daala the new GA Chief of State?!?
Mando addicts with long-term contracts (again)
LotF Sequel Series
NJO Comic Series
Mandalore is what, now?!
ZOMG they canceled KotOR!
ZOMG they canceled Legacy!
The Jedi Civil War was not what it seemed
Dave Filoni: "Han Solo cannot understand Chewie"
George Lucas at Celebration V
Asajj Ventress was from where, now?!
Darth Maul has a brother?!
Wait, two brothers?! Oh, back to one.
Even Piell died before the Great Jedi Purge?!
Darth Vader screames "NOOOOOOO" when he throws the Emperor down the reactor shaft?!
A KotOR MMORPG
~"I’m picking up my blaster, Put it on my side. I’m jumpin’ in my Falcon, Wookiee at my side.
I’m Solo, I’m Han Solo,I’m Han Solo. I’m Han Solo. Solo."~
Darth Maul is alive?
THE EXPANDED UNIVERSE DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE?
The "pork side"
SHEEV PALPATINE?!
Star Wars Rebels
Phineas and Ferb: Star Wars
No more 20th Century Fox Fanfare
A heart"felt" re-telling of the classics
Lego Star Wars: Droid Tales
Star Wars live-action TV series
Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens
Rogue One
Han Solo film
The Last Jedi
Death of Carrie Fisher


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## Zardnaar (Feb 12, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> Fans realize something Lucasfilm Ltd. does not, that robust 38-year-old billion-dollar franchises, while seemingly healthy, are in actuality as fragile as two bricks tied together with tissue paper. One mistake, one bad mis-step will cause the entire thing to shatter and fall apart; and Star Wars would be ruined forever.
> 
> Fortunately, there is hope. The Star Wars fanbase has resolved to remain ever vigilant against something that could Ruin Star Wars Forever, and call out warning if they see something that could potentially do so.
> 
> ...




Waru was very very bad. Daalas problem was the writers. I'll see your Children of The Jedi and raise you a Crystal Star. Both make TLJ look like a masterpiece.

 This explains it better and I don't have the skills for a youtube video (nor would anyone care), but this guy doesn't seem like a raving loon.

Ahsoka Vs Rey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wlBpRnFEcg


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## carolpegram (Feb 12, 2019)

Umbran said:


> The Last Jedi grossed more than a *billion* dollars over its production budget.  There is no reason to see this as not doing spectacularly.  Did it make less than TFA?  Yes.  But pretty much every sequel makes less than the first in a series.  This is not a cause for concern.
> 
> Lucasfilm/Disney are probably realizing that yearly releases of movies saturates the market.
> 
> ...




I welcome diversity in Star Wars movies. But I want to see that the actor/actress is well qualified for such a movie and know how to play well.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 12, 2019)

carolpegram said:


> I welcome diversity in Star Wars movies. But I want to see that the actor/actress is well qualified for such a movie and know how to play well.




 I thought she is doing better than Hayden as Anakin and perhaps Hamill in ANH.

 I don't blame the actor, its the writing IMHO. See the video I posted above.


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## carolpegram (Feb 12, 2019)

I don't understand why everyone is blaming Hayden. For me, he was good in Prequels. I mean not like Ewan McGregor, but still he did a good job in those movies.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 12, 2019)

carolpegram said:


> I don't understand why everyone is blaming Hayden. For me, he was good in Prequels. I mean not like Ewan McGregor, but still he did a good job in those movies.




He didn't follow it up that well in other movies. I cut the actors in the sequal some slack because of crap dialogue.

  Oscar Isaac was good in Operation Finale on Netflix, Adam Driver I want to see in Black Klansmen, and I like Daisy herself I don't think she is doing that bad with what she has to work with. Even if shes not the greatest she is still doing better than some of the OT actors and prequal ones. The OT characters however. 

 As I said the video I posted above does a way betetr job explaining it. Basically how annoying Ahsoka became a decent character or even Hans development in 1 movie but Rey and Fin or Kylo have barely progressed and they have had 2 movies. Kylo throws wobblys in TFA then smashes his helmet in TLJ.

 Even Vader. Was a mysterious badass in ANH, barely got 10 minutes screen time, Empire Vader was unleashed+ I am your father, Jedi Vader redeemed yay go Anakin.

 Apparently they're bringing in a new villain (Kylo is ineffective) and they wasted Snoke and Phasma. Rey had a great introduction in TFA and then yeah.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 12, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Logical story telling with characters we care about helps. Disney Star Wars overall is fairly decent it's mostly just TLJ.  Rebels was really good, Leia is great same with Jynn and Hera. Asoka had also grown on me once she grew up in Rebels. Ripley in Aliens good new Ghostbusters bad. There's a difference.



You SAY that but look at your points from the first thread:



> 1a. Not having the new trilogy mapped out at least in broad terms.2a. Letting Rian Johnson do whatever the hell he wanted.1b. Burning Down the Old Expanded Universe.2b. Video Games4b. Diversity (for diversity's sake)5b. World building.



Now, 1a, 2a, 1b, 4b, and 5b are unrelated to TLJ. Because TFA started the terrible world building, had very purposeful diversity, and JJ Abrams was allowed to do whatever he wanted. 
And while Abrams mapped out a trilogy very loosely, he never gave it to LucasFilms or shared it with Johnson; it was basically his head-canon. 
And video games are unrelated to Disney as Star Wars video games have been terrible for a while, as EA is focused entirely on multiplayer shooters that they can slap loot crates onto. Different company. 
As for burning down the EU... that was necessary, as making a sequel set 25 years after _Return of the Jedi_ in the EU would have been impossible as so much had happened. Ridiculous numbers of new characters, several dead characters, unexplained character growth, multiple huge invasions.  

But let's not kid ourselves. None of this was a problem until _The Last Jedi_. Why? Because it was *slightly* divisive. Because Rose was apparently too much diversity. Because Luke wasn't the over powered star and Rey was the new protagonist. 

Here's a bunch of IMdb charts showing how men and women rate the various Star Wars films for the prequels. and sequels.


 

 



 

 

Notice how for all of them women and men seem to rate them roughly the same. Even the bad ones. Men are a little more likely to rate things a 1-star, but only by 1% or so. And then we get to TLJ and the huuuuge disproportionate spike of 1s. Now, why is the reason. Clearly some women didn't like it either, but far more men decided to rate this lower than _Caravan of Courage_ or the _Holiday Special_. 

I'm not saying you _*have *_to like TLJ. Although somewhere between 85-75% of the audience really liked it and found it a good movie. But holding it up as "the problem" and complaining about it more than, oh, _The Phantom Menace_ might be unnecessary. However, continuing to rail against TLJ puts you in the same camps as some pretty toxic elements of the fandom.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 12, 2019)

Jester David said:


> You SAY that but look at your points from the first thread:
> 
> 
> Now, 1a, 2a, 1b, 4b, and 5b are unrelated to TLJ. Because TFA started the terrible world building, had very purposeful diversity, and JJ Abrams was allowed to do whatever he wanted.
> ...




 Did you watch that video I linked?

 Rose is unpopular because that whole side story was mostly pointless.

 TFA could have done a better job at world building, but overall was a mostly enjoyable movie that mostly made sense. Both here and Finn both came across as idiots because they couldn't follow simple instructions like find the guy with the rose lapel that Maz told them about. 

You can do that once or twice (Luke runs off to confront Vader for example) but when all the characters are doing it all of the time it just gets repetitive. Poe gets a whole squadron of bombers killed and leads a mutiny, Rey rushes off to try and redeem Kylo a character she barely knows and just met. ANH-ESB was 3 years in universe, TFA-TLJ was a few hours or days.  

 When all of the characters (including the villains) are basically being idiots all of the time with very little to fall back on with virtually no character development and so so world building is it any wonder that a lot of people don't care about them. Both Kylo and Rey had really good introductions in TFA and the movie mostly made a bit of sense.

 I don't really care if people agree with me or not and we'll have to see how IX turns out but its seems they are doing a 180 for some strange mysterious reason. And yeah some people are toxic towards TLJ, I don't think its the worst SW movie by a long shot, we have 2/3 prequels for that.


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## trappedslider (Feb 12, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Waru was very very bad. Daalas problem was the writers. I'll see your Children of The Jedi and raise you a Crystal Star. Both make TLJ look like a masterpiece.
> 
> This explains it better and I don't have the skills for a youtube video (nor would anyone care), but this guy doesn't seem like a raving loon.
> 
> ...




you know..you say you're a fan but you don't recognize the "ruined forever" page from Wookiepedia https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Ruined_FOREVER which ends in "In other words, pretty much everything..."


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## Zardnaar (Feb 12, 2019)

Did not know about that page. Not do I think it's ruined forever they have a good record with the animated stuff.

I use wookiepedia for the new metaplot and RPG research.

 As I said there's worse than TLJ it's kinda obscure to the populace at large and dates from 25 years ago.


----------



## billd91 (Feb 12, 2019)

carolpegram said:


> I don't understand why everyone is blaming Hayden. For me, he was good in Prequels. I mean not like Ewan McGregor, but still he did a good job in those movies.




Hayden was definitely weak in Attack of the Clones. But he's been good in other things - so what was the problem? Most likely, George Lucas as the director. Word from actors is he's not that good at directing people. He's a fantastic producer, though. He makes things happen. He makes new technologies happen. *That's* his strength, not directing.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 12, 2019)

Natalie also wasn't that good. The problem was George plus the dialogue. Natalie is better than Hayden in other things and she said Hayden did a great audition.

 Star Wars has always taken a punt on new actors with one or two established ones.


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## Jester David (Feb 12, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Did you watch that video I linked?



I have learned from experience to never EVER watch videos by Star Wars fans about TLJ. 



Zardnaar said:


> Rose is unpopular because that whole side story was mostly pointless.



Don't kid yourself. Rose is unpopular because she is a woman of colour. 
John Boyega was in every scene of that sideplot and no one harassed him off Twitter with uncountable death threats. 

That sideplot, which was all of 12 minutes and thus just 10% of the runtime, is actually pretty essential to the theme of the movie. It elevates the movie above almost every other Star Wars film, showing the actual people the rebellion is about as well as the growing legend of the resistance. It shows why Luke matters and why Luke's last stand was impressive. 



Zardnaar said:


> TFA could have done a better job at world building, but overall was a mostly enjoyable movie that mostly made sense.



So… because you liked it, the horrible worldbuilding is forgivable. But because you disliked TLJ, the horrible worldbuilding it mostly inherited from TFA is a dealbreaker. 



Zardnaar said:


> Both here and Finn both came across as idiots because they couldn't follow simple instructions like find the guy with the rose lapel that Maz told them about.



As opposed to Han and Luke's masterpiece of a prison break? 
Anakin's rescue of Obi-Wan on Geonosa? 

Star Wars is full of plots and plans that fail spectacularly. Why is this one unforgivable? 



Zardnaar said:


> You can do that once or twice (Luke runs off to confront Vader for example) but when all the characters are doing it all of the time it just gets repetitive. Poe gets a whole squadron of bombers killed and leads a mutiny, Rey rushes off to try and redeem Kylo a character she barely knows and just met. ANH-ESB was 3 years in universe, TFA-TLJ was a few hours or days.



Again, you freely admit that the complaints that you are making about TLJ occur elsewhere but you give them a pass.

You really need to stop. Just stop. Rewatch _The Last Jedi_ and do some introspective soul searching and decide what you didn't like about the movie and why. 
And you need to accept that it's okay to just not like a movie on a tonal level. To just inherently have a movie rub you the wrong way. That's fine. Really. There’s NO requirement for you to like every movie or like the same movies as everyone else. But you don't need to justify it. You don't need to convince other people who did enjoy it that it was really bad and they should feel bad about enjoying it. 



Zardnaar said:


> When all of the characters (including the villains) are basically being idiots all of the time with very little to fall back on with virtually no character development and so so world building is it any wonder that a lot of people don't care about them.



Yeah… let's not get into "character development" in Star Wars, because that's a deep, deep rabbit hole of suck. Lucas is many things, but a deep character writer he is not. 



Zardnaar said:


> I don't really care if people agree with me or not



And yet you keep posting these long rants and starting new posts...



Zardnaar said:


> and we'll have to see how IX turns out but its seems they are doing a 180 for some strange mysterious reason.



Based on what? 
Abrams is being more secretive than usual with Episode IX. We don't even know the title and it's less than a year from release. (In comparison, the first Force Awakens teaser was out a little over a year-and-a-month before the release.)

If you're implying they're unhappy with TLJ that seems to fly in the face of reality. The film made a billion dollars. Johnson is still making a new trilogy. And 75-80% of the audience were really happy with the film. 
Are you seriously suggesting Disney is going to do a 180 in response to 4% of the fanbase that is extra unhappy with TLJ? The tiny vocal minority that won't stop talking about how bad the film was because it had girls using lightsabers and Luke Skywalker not being a happy heroic Jedi god. 



Zardnaar said:


> And yeah some people are toxic towards TLJ, I don't think its the worst SW movie by a long shot, we have 2/3 prequels for that.



And the Holiday Special.
Plus the two Ewok films. 
And _Solo_, which lost money.


----------



## Shasarak (Feb 12, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> Things that have Ruined Star Wars Forever in the past:




How can you have that whole list without including Abrams.

Sorry I have to give your list the rating of worst list ever.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 12, 2019)

Jester David said:


> I have learned from experience to never EVER watch videos by Star Wars fans about TLJ.
> 
> 
> Don't kid yourself. Rose is unpopular because she is a woman of colour.
> ...




I liked Solo better than TLJ. Leaving TLJ was kinda like leaving TPM just disappointed. Leaving TFA I got that happy buzz feeling that's the prequels kinda missed. TPM disappointment was was though.

 With movies generally you give and take a bit. The OT gets a pass on some of it because the good parts were so good. The new ones don't have the I an your father moment or even you are Revan a game pulled off. The training thing did stand out.

 Much like 4E you have certain expectation of franchises.  Giving the actress hell who played Rose hell is just beyond the pale. Twitter is cancer I don't use it.


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## Hussar (Feb 13, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I'll make no argument about whether it was a good movie.
> 
> IMVSO, Rogue One isn't Star Wars. The Rebel Alliance does not employ assassins or child soldiers. Period.




Umm what?

Star Wars Rebels would like to have a word. 

Heck, the Jedi would like to have a word too. 

Star Wars is full of child soldiers.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Umm what?
> 
> Star Wars Rebels would like to have a word.
> 
> ...





 Yup in canon, and the old legends they had kids using lightsabers or the force to defend themselves. I think Jacen and Jaina were 2 or 3.


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## Hussar (Feb 13, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> Fans realize something Lucasfilm Ltd. does not, that robust 38-year-old billion-dollar franchises, while seemingly healthy, are in actuality as fragile as two bricks tied together with tissue paper. One mistake, one bad mis-step will cause the entire thing to shatter and fall apart; and Star Wars would be ruined forever.
> 
> Fortunately, there is hope. The Star Wars fanbase has resolved to remain ever vigilant against something that could Ruin Star Wars Forever, and call out warning if they see something that could potentially do so.
> 
> ...




I so wish I could posted this more.


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## Hussar (Feb 13, 2019)

How is the whole Rose side plot not a massive pile of world building?  I mean if you’re going to complain about a lack of world building and then ignore the giant info dump in the middle of the movie, well that’s on the viewer.


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## Neonchameleon (Feb 13, 2019)

Lucas has been good at two things. Gathering a strong team of people around him and finding and using cool new tech. A good director he wasn't - indeed his version of A New Hope was terrible.

[video=youtube;GFMyMxMYDNk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMyMxMYDNk[/video]

The Last Jedi did not even come _close_ to flopping - it just got some people really annoyed, and as far as my own personal enjoyment was concerned it was in the best three (with Empire in first and along side A New Hope). It also made a better ROI than Rogue One (and was a better film and less of a mess all round; cut the nostalgia off Rogue One and there's little left to the point Jyn Erso's best line was only in the trailer and she and several other characters were utterly inconsistent). Solo flopped because it was not a terribly well done story that no one really wanted - Han Solo does not need much of a back story and it didn't push anything forward.

And yes, Kylo Ren is the big villain and is the second best villain the entire Star Wars saga has ever seen, behind only Darth Vader himself. Possibly Rey can defeat him with a lightsaber - but so what if she can? If Rey defeating Kylo Ren with a lightsaber is how it ends then it will be proof positive that Episode 9 has forgotten what makes Star Wars. Seriously, when has a lightsaber fight been a good resolution? Obi-Wan lost in A New Hope. Luke lost in Empire. Luke won in Return of the Jedi _by throwing away his lightsaber_. Obi Wan killed Darth Maul (seriously, I ignore that ridiculous piece of canon) in The Phantom Menace - solving little and it was The Phantom Menace. Anakin vs Dooku was not a win for the good guys. Yoda vs The Emperor resolved nothing. And Obi Wan vs Anakin? _Duels solve nothing except minor enemies in Star Wars._ The crucial moments have been face-heel and heel-face turns in the Star Wars saga (both of Anakin) - and unlike Anakin Kylo Ren chooses to openly and deliberately be evil. Oh, and he's actually more powerful than Vader; Vader didn't hold blaster bolts in mid air, and he needed a droid to interrogate with.

Or in short I disagree with just about everything the OP has written except that Star Wars Battlefront is not a match for either the 90s or the 00s Star Wars computer games. The X Wing saga and KOTOR have strong legacies for good reason while EA has messed up Battlefront.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> How is the whole Rose side plot not a massive pile of world building?  I mean if you’re going to complain about a lack of world building and then ignore the giant info dump in the middle of the movie, well that’s on the viewer.




 The execution was off, it kind of involved RL politics, the characters were uninteresting and it all felt mostly pointless along with the general theme of the movie and the execution (a chase in space, in Star Wars). It also lead to the end of the move with an untrained kid using move object.

 The weapons dealing thing was kinda decent that was OK. 

 Look at the original, Lukes (the chosen ones kid) use of the force was very subtle. He sucked with the lightsaber vs the drone and at the end he used the force to switch off his targeting computer. He managed to use move object after being trained by Yoda, and in RoTJ he uses mind trick on Bib Fortuna.

 Anakin was trained for 10 years between ANH and AoTC, we see Padawans being trained in the temple in the prequels. In the EU/Legends Lukes and Leia kids had to be trained, the new Sith had to be trained,  Revan had to retrain as well in KoToR. Training is also a big thing in the cartoons. If you don''t have a teacher find/use a holocron like Ezra in Rebels (who also had a teacher).

 So TLJ basically did a big 180 basically ignoring 6 movies before it and had Rey and some kid using force powers untrained. Untrained force users usually have only very basic things like premonitions, dreams etc or at best wing it when they lose their temper. Throw in the force is female T-shirts Kathleen and co was wearing and they basically ignored one of the biggest tropes of Star Wars and what lore Obi Wan established in the OT's (it surrounds etc). Wonder why people get upset now? 

 Combine this with a crappy job f explaining the First Order and basically ignoring the end of RotJ (the New Republic fell part in 30 year really). Oh and also using hyperspace to fly into the gravity well of planets and using a ship as a hyperspace weapon also makes little sense in universe (why not just fire hyperspace X-Wings with Droids at star destroyers or fling a corvette at the Death Star). Why not just hyperspace a ship into the port thing on Starkiller base. Maybe Holdo is a genius but Akbar and Thrawn didn't figure it out and they are generally portrayed as being a genius.

 They're either contradicting the older stuff or using stupid ideas what basically makes everything they did in the other 6 movies pointless. Throw in points like Kylo being an ineffective villain (he has lost twice already) and Rey being overpowered ( if she beat Kylo again so what he has already lost twice). Compare Reys trajectory to any of the OT 3 main characters she heas been written to be unbeatable with no really explanation. Anakin was the chosen one and he still got cut up by Dooku and Obi Wan. Luke got beaten up buy a wampa and lost to Vader. Vader never really lost until the end of the 3rd movie and it was the climax of the OT. 

 Basically instead of training to be a powerful force user just be an orphan or by yourself. You'll be knocking out those force lightnings way easier, the dark side isn't quicker or easier just don't have any parents around. Luke one of the most powerful force users ever got shown up by some untrained kid 13 years younger than him. Gebnerally things should make sense in universe and not contradict everything with no real effort made at explanation.


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## Hussar (Feb 13, 2019)

Ahh. Canon issues. This is why the movies don’t bother me. Cherry picking inconsistencies in an SF series to prove a point bores me to tears and is so completely meaningless.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Ahh. Canon issues. This is why the movies don’t bother me. Cherry picking inconsistencies in an SF series to prove a point bores me to tears and is so completely meaningless.




More in universe logic. Say a group of Sith used the force to blow up a planet it's silly but makes a bit of sense in universe. They have never defined the upper limit of the force. 

 A Sith or Jedi also doesn't require much explaining. If you're a Jedi it's kind of assumed you can use a lightsaber and force powers. If Rey and some kid can do it untrained what was the point of major parts of the OT and prequels?

 Both Rey and Kylo had great introductions but I  would have had Kylo own Rey she survives and then tracks down Luke if Starkiller base blows up.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Feb 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Umm what?
> 
> Star Wars Rebels would like to have a word.
> 
> ...




The Rebels characters aren’t children, or soldiers. 

Jedi younglings arent soldiers, and they don’t send Padawans out into danger until they’re old enough that their age matches the fantasy-esque expectation of a young knight, at least. Ie, legal adult, if barely. Also, what do the Jedi have to do with the Rebel Alliance? 

The Rebel Alliance does not employ child soldiers.


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## Hussar (Feb 14, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> The Rebels characters aren’t children, or soldiers.
> 
> Jedi younglings arent soldiers, and they don’t send Padawans out into danger until they’re old enough that their age matches the fantasy-esque expectation of a young knight, at least. Ie, legal adult, if barely. Also, what do the Jedi have to do with the Rebel Alliance?
> 
> The Rebel Alliance does not employ child soldiers.




14 year old Ezra Bridger would beg to differ.

And, taking very young children from their parents and forcing them to be soldiers is the very definition of child soldiers.


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## Shasarak (Feb 14, 2019)

It is funny to imagine that Charlie Sheen Quagmire is a "regular" Star Wars fan.

#Gigitty  #Winning


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

Hussar said:


> 14 year old Ezra Bridger would beg to differ.
> 
> And, taking very young children from their parents and forcing them to be soldiers is the very definition of child soldiers.




Jedi aren't soldiers.  Jedi children have seen combat in extremis.

 Star Wars kinda has a fantasy with youth. Luke and Leia were 18, Anakin was 10, Ezra 14, Sabine 16, Padme 14.


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## doctorbadwolf (Feb 14, 2019)

Hussar said:


> 14 year old Ezra Bridger would beg to differ.
> 
> And, taking very young children from their parents and forcing them to be soldiers is the very definition of child soldiers.




Jedi aren’t soldiers, nor is Ezra. 

Whether teenagers are “children” is debatable (by the time he is fighting the empire, rather than just stealing and smuggling, he isn’t 14, so “14 year old Ezra Bridger” is entirely disengenuous) but no one asked Ezra to get himself in trouble that brought imperial trouble, and then end up being force sensitive in a universe where the government is hunting force sensitives. The imply that his story is remotely comparable to actual child soldiers, or a situation like Andor’s story in Rogue One, is insultingly nonsensical. 

As for Jedi, no, it’s not the same as child soldiers. They are trained, and literally can leave if they want once they are trained enough to not be a accidentally dangerous. Child soldiers are children that are _being made to fight as soldiers_. I don’t know why you’re trying to muddy that with this nonsense about Jedi being child soldiers, but it is beyond the limits of my patience. 

Presenting the Rebel Alliance as an organization that employs assassins that are unambiguously _little children_ completely changes the moral character of the organization, and irreparably changes the nature of all stories that feature the Rebel Alliance.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Jedi aren’t soldiers, nor is Ezra.
> 
> Whether teenagers are “children” is debatable (by the time he is fighting the empire, rather than just stealing and smuggling, he isn’t 14, so “14 year old Ezra Bridger” is entirely disengenuous) but no one asked Ezra to get himself in trouble that brought imperial trouble, and then end up being force sensitive in a universe where the government is hunting force sensitives. The imply that his story is remotely comparable to actual child soldiers, or a situation like Andor’s story in Rogue One, is insultingly nonsensical.
> 
> ...




Alliance using assassin's is fine. They had them in legends. 

 It's why I liked Rogue One it put the war into Star Wars


----------



## billd91 (Feb 14, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Presenting the Rebel Alliance as an organization that employs assassins that are unambiguously _little children_ completely changes the moral character of the organization, and irreparably changes the nature of all stories that feature the Rebel Alliance.




It’s pretty obvious you have a lot of emotional investment in this issue. But it’s beyond your control. With Rogue One, LucasFilm chose to inject some grayness into the white hat-ish Rebel Alliance. That is their right and many of us appreciated it and the complexities it adds to the setting.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Feb 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Alliance using assassin's is fine. They had them in legends.
> 
> It's why I liked Rogue One it put the war into Star Wars




And Legends, thankfully, isn’t canon anymore. 



billd91 said:


> It’s pretty obvious you have a lot of emotional investment in this issue. But it’s beyond your control. With Rogue One, LucasFilm chose to inject some grayness into the white hat-ish Rebel Alliance. That is their right and many of us appreciated it and the complexities it adds to the setting.




Lol I love it when someone tries to use the idea that someone is “emotionally invested” as some sort of platform to dismiss their arguments. 

I’m not anymore emotionally invested in Star Wars than in any other media I enjoy. I do get annoyed by disengenuous arguments, and especially by goalpost shifting, disengenuous, arguments that paint two extremely different cases as if they are the same, or paint the absurdly out of place as if it were commonplace, which is what you see in the post you quoted. Hussar may as well have claimed that Superman murders dudes all the time, so the end of MOS is perfectly normal. 

The rest of this, about “control” and whatever, is entirely irrelevant to a discussion of whether a movie is good or not.


----------



## billd91 (Feb 14, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Lol I love it when someone tries to use the idea that someone is “emotionally invested” as some sort of platform to dismiss their arguments.
> 
> I’m not anymore emotionally invested in Star Wars than in any other media I enjoy. I do get annoyed by disengenuous arguments, and especially by goalpost shifting, disengenuous, arguments that paint two extremely different cases as if they are the same, or paint the absurdly out of place as if it were commonplace, which is what you see in the post you quoted. Hussar may as well have claimed that Superman murders dudes all the time, so the end of MOS is perfectly normal.
> 
> The rest of this, about “control” and whatever, is entirely irrelevant to a discussion of whether a movie is good or not.




I dunno. You’re the one who can’t seem to let it go. You’ve basically harped on it, what, 3-4 times this thread.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Feb 14, 2019)

billd91 said:


> I dunno. You’re the one who can’t seem to let it go. You’ve basically harped on it, what, 3-4 times this thread.




Is this not a thread about new Star Wars? Specifically wherein the OP stated what they would have done differently? 

Why are you so interested in shushing someone whose opinion on that you disagree with? 

Btw, [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] there is an obvious and extreme difference between employing assassins, and employing pre-pubescent children as assassins. 

It doesn’t doesn’t “inject a bit of grey” or whatever, it makes the Rebel Alliance vs the Empire a battle between evil and not quite as evil.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> And Legends, thankfully, isn’t canon anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Making a darker Star Wars movie doesn't fundamentally change the way the universe works. Hell Lucas did it in Sith. I saw Jedi when I was 5 doesn't mean I want to be seeing kids stuff all the time at 40. 

 TLJ is kind boring because they booked Rey so strong. There's less dramatic tension there over the OT or Rogue One. If Rey steamrolls everything again in 9 big deal seen that in two movies already.

 Prequels crappy dialogue and acting but the world building was better and it was a bit darker especially Sith. And that's Canon and why I think Sith has stronger storytelling than say TLJ. 

 Any changes I would have made to say TFA would be subtle. Like if you're going to have Rey be a nobody don't put in a scene where her family leaving matters.

 There's good swerves and bad swerves.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

Also we don't know enough about his back gournd anyway. Did he fall in with the Alliance as a child and they raised him, was he literally a child assassin (we see this in Game of Thrones), did he volunteer and/or lie. I don't think the alliance is doing mass recruiting of children. In WW2 the US military used a 12 year old in combat (he volunteered and lied), a teacher I had in 1989 was a child in the Sudetenland under Nazi occupation and did some things that would have got him killed if he got caught.

 These things happen, some 10-14 year olds would chose to fight and could operate weapons (physically, parents may have even taken them hunting).

 Those are exceptions not the rule but these things happen even outside dictatorial regimes that either deliberately use child soldiers or have things like the Hitler Youth/Young Communists. WW2 literally had a 12 year old chose to go to war. Context is a big difference and we don't know the context (he is getting a spin off right?).

 Our idea of the childhood ideal may fall a bit short when the forces of evil literally come stomping own the street. The Empire is everyone bad guy. Are they space nazies, space commies, space British Imperialism, or the space military industrial complex or just space baddies that need zapped.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Any changes I would have made to say TFA would be subtle. Like if you're going to have Rey be a nobody don't put in a scene where her family leaving matters.



Are we talking about the same Star Wars where they weasel out of how he told Luke his father was dead?

“Yeah... that may have seemed like a ridiculous contradiction... but really I meant he was dead to me.”

They pulled a major plot twist out of their ass with no idea how to reconcile it with the first movie.


----------



## Hussar (Feb 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Jedi aren't soldiers.  Jedi children have seen combat in extremis.
> 
> Star Wars kinda has a fantasy with youth. Luke and Leia were 18, Anakin was 10, Ezra 14, Sabine 16, Padme 14.




Ezra was a soldier before he was a Jedi.  And he joined the crew as a soldier, not as a Jedi.

And, umm, nope.  You take children, force them into soldier training, they are child soldiers.

Every single Jedi presented in Star Wars is the result of horrific practices where a cult is kidnapping children and forcing them to be soldiers for their cult.  Now, just like the obvious slavery issues of droids, Star Wars chooses to ignore these issues, but, they most certainly are there.  

You might not like it, but, it's not exactly hard to miss.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Ezra was a soldier before he was a Jedi.  And he joined the crew as a soldier, not as a Jedi.
> 
> And, umm, nope.  You take children, force them into soldier training, they are child soldiers.
> 
> ...




I can't remember but by law do force sensitive children get handed over.  Even if it's forced though real world morality doesn't apply because we don't have to deal with force sensitive children falling to the dark side. Each kid is a potential wmd.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Ezra was a soldier before he was a Jedi.  And he joined the crew as a soldier, not as a Jedi.
> 
> And, umm, nope.  You take children, force them into soldier training, they are child soldiers.
> 
> ...




They didn't know if there would be a sequel to ANH plan b was scaled down movie see Splinter of the Minds Eye. So they retconned it in Empire. Disney knew there would be another movie and had a budget way bigger than 7 million which even when adjusted for inflation pails to the budget for TFA.

 I have an original Splinter of the Minds Eye. Kyber crystals are an old concept.

Looks like they may retconned TLJ. Apparently Matt Smith is a new baddie and the lady from The Americans might be Rey's mother. Have to wait and see.


----------



## trappedslider (Feb 14, 2019)

I wish I could find that old essay that was titled "Star Wars Fans Hate Star Wars"


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> I wish I could find that old essay that was titled "Star Wars Fans Hate Star Wars"




I am your father.


----------



## trappedslider (Feb 14, 2019)

Found and and quoted :



> My girlfriend doesn’t understand what I see in Star Wars. We’ve had several soul-crushing arguments about what exactly makes this series so important to me, and every time I have found it more and more difficult to argue my case. As the maddening years have wound on, I think I finally understand the reason for this crippling handicap.
> 
> There is a diabolical twist to Star Wars fandom, you see, that defies comprehension, and yet is the life-blood of all Star Wars fans. It is this:
> 
> ...




than the maker for the wayback machine https://web.archive.org/web/20070708063323/http://www.jivemagazine.com/column.php?pid=3381


----------



## Jester David (Feb 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Looks like they may retconned TLJ. Apparently Matt Smith is a new baddie and the lady from The Americans might be Rey's mother. Have to wait and see.



Matt Smith is in the credits in IMdb. He may have left the film. Keri Russel is, but we don't even know the name of her character of if she's playing a human and not a mo-capped alien. And she would have been 16 when Daisy Ridley was born.

Where are you getting this information? 
You might want to stop reading rumour sites, especially ones that seem to be run by people with a TLJ bias. It's very likely just going to lead you to disappointment.


----------



## Istbor (Feb 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Any changes I would have made to say TFA would be subtle. Like if you're going to have Rey be a nobody don't put in a scene where her family leaving matters.
> 
> There's good swerves and bad swerves.




That scene was meant to show that it was an important moment for Rey, not that in the grand scheme of the galaxy. I felt it illustrated that well enough.  She will likely never forget that shuttle flying off without her, but perhaps those parents are really not consequential to the greater story at play.  And that is alright.

Not everyone has to come from amazing storied parents.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

Istbor said:


> That scene was meant to show that it was an important moment for Rey, not that in the grand scheme of the galaxy. I felt it illustrated that well enough.  She will likely never forget that shuttle flying off without her, but perhaps those parents are really not consequential to the greater story at play.  And that is alright.
> 
> Not everyone has to come from amazing storied parents.




 No they don't but in that case they kind of need some sort of explanation for their power even if its something like "Jedi Knight/Master" because Rey as written has been presented more powerful than the chosen one and his son. SHe is using force powers untrained, compare her to Luke in the OT.

 Say if Rey lost at the end of TFA, Starkiller base still went boom, she gets training from Luke in TLJ very slight change, doesn't really change the overall plot much, make Kylo a more effective bad guy and then she goes and pwns him in IX. Better story arc than if she goes and pwns him in IX now right? Unless they pull something clever we basically already know how its going to end. 

 If her family didn't matter they could also tie her to Kylo better like if they trained togather at Lukes academy. As written she has rushed off to try and reddem someone she barely knows while Luke at least played on the fact Vader was his father. And he could "sense the good in him". Sure Kylo has flip flopped a few times but redeeming a darksider you barely know isn't that great of a story as why would the darksider be willing to redeem. Sure Vader didn't know Luke that much either but they still had the family thing and Vader could think about things like "would Padme want me to kill our son". Sure we didn't know about Padme in the originals but they still played up that family connection.

 So there is a lot less of dramtic tension and there is literally know sense in what Rey is doing, why she is doing it and why should we care when her character has had virtually no character development relative to Luke in the 1st 2 OT movies.


----------



## Istbor (Feb 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> No they don't but in that case they kind of need some sort of explanation for their power even if its something like "Jedi Knight/Master" because Rey as written has been presented more powerful than the chosen one and his son. SHe is using force powers untrained, compare her to Luke in the OT.
> 
> Say if Rey lost at the end of TFA, Starkiller base still went boom, she gets training from Luke in TLJ very slight change, doesn't really change the overall plot much, make Kylo a more effective bad guy and then she goes and pwns him in IX. Better story arc than if she goes and pwns him in IX now right? Unless they pull something clever we basically already know how its going to end.
> 
> ...




Sometimes I read your posts, and feel like we watched two different movies, or I want to ask if you DID in fact see the two new installments of the saga.


----------



## billd91 (Feb 14, 2019)

Istbor said:


> Sometimes I read your posts, and feel like we watched two different movies, or I want to ask if you DID in fact see the two new installments of the saga.




You are not the only one who feels this way. With a lot of criticisms of the new trilogy. There seems to be a very different standard applied to Rey compared to either Anakin or Luke. [sarcasm]I can't imagine why.[/sarcasm]


----------



## Shasarak (Feb 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> No they don't but in that case they kind of need some sort of explanation for their power even if its something like "Jedi Knight/Master" because Rey as written has been presented more powerful than the chosen one and his son. SHe is using force powers untrained, compare her to Luke in the OT.




To be honest I am not sure if that is because Rey is a Mary Sue or if Kylo is an Anti-Stu.


----------



## Hussar (Feb 14, 2019)

Umm, how do we know that it takes lots of training to force move something?  Because it took Luke a couple of weeks of training to do it?  Really?  A sample size of one determines how things work?

Wouldn't it be better just to accept and move on?  Why would I assume that just because it took Luke a week or two of training to lift rocks that he never could do it before or that no one ever could come by it naturally?  Seems a bit of a stretch.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> To be honest I am not sure if that is because Rey is a Mary Sue or if Kylo is an Anti-Stu.




That to. As I said I would have dumped the post Endor Legends stuff and had a female protagonist myself. I would have made her weaker though or made her a Jedi Knight or another force tradition.

 The other tweak would be if Kylo was written as is his mentor would be kept around to episode IX.

Rey had a good intro in the Star Destroyer wreckage and with her staff. Kylo had a good one as well. The duel at the end was also really good IMO.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 14, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Umm, how do we know that it takes lots of training to force move something?  Because it took Luke a couple of weeks of training to do it?  Really?  A sample size of one determines how things work?
> 
> Wouldn't it be better just to accept and move on?  Why would I assume that just because it took Luke a week or two of training to lift rocks that he never could do it before or that no one ever could come by it naturally?  Seems a bit of a stretch.



Luke was moving lightsabers after getting ONE lesson on using the Force, and that was related to blocking blaster shots.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Luke was moving lightsabers after getting ONE lesson on using the Force, and that was related to blocking blaster shots.




He was bad at it and got some training at least. He got messed up by a company and lost a hand and fight to Vader. Big difference with Rey who has been booked as untrained and unbeatable. There was also a 3 year gap in universe between ANH and ESB. Compare Luke's move object on Dagobah with Rey's moving the folders at the end of TLJ. 

Big difference in presentation.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> He was bad at it and got some training at least. He got messed up by a company and lost a hand and fight to Vader. Big difference with Rey who has been booked as untrained and unbeatable.



Luke’s training in fighting was shooting large rodents on his farm and lifting rocks in a swamp. 
Rey’s training in fighting was twelve years of constantly defending herself and her claim from scavengers and scoundrels.

And she was far from unbeatable. She was owned by Snoak. And couldn’t pull a lightsaber away from Kylo Ren. Whether or not she could take Ren in a fair fight, one where his organs weren’t half on the outside after a bowcaster shot remains to be seen. 

But, no, your problems with the film aren’t Rey. Nope. They’re all about the writing and pacing. Despite how you continually and slam on Rey.
 dude, this isn’t even the first time I have pointed out that Rey can fight. That we see her fight with a staff before we even know she’s a Force user. 
*We have literally had this exact conversation before.* Point for point.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 14, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Luke’s training in fighting was shooting large rodents on his farm and lifting rocks in a swamp.
> Rey’s training in fighting was twelve years of constantly defending herself and her claim from scavengers and scoundrels.
> 
> And she was far from unbeatable. She was owned by Snoak. And couldn’t pull a lightsaber away from Kylo Ren. Whether or not she could take Ren in a fair fight, one where his organs weren’t half on the outside after a bowcaster shot remains to be seen.
> ...




Rey's use of the staff doesn't really require an explaination for the reasons you listed.

 Being able to use mind trick and Jed Master levels of rocks either untrained or with minimal training is a bit off compared to forebpower use in I to VI is the main point.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Rey's use of the staff doesn't really require an explaination for the reasons you listed.
> 
> Being able to use mind trick and Jed Master levels of rocks either untrained or with minimal training is a bit off compared to forebpower use in I to VI is the main point.



Isn’t the simpler explanation that Luke was a crap student? Yoda says as much. He’s powerful but unfocused. 
And while there was years between movies, there’s no implication that Luke spent any time training. And we never see Luke learn or be trained in the mind trick. 
Even as a kid, when watching _Return of the Jed_, I felt Luke becoming a Jedi happened pretty fast and he’d barely spent any time actually training. But, apparently, learning to use the force just takes a couple weeks in a swamp. 

Plus, if we’re going to complain about powerful force users without training, shouldn’t we bring up Asaj Ventress. Or Savage Opress? 

Also, Rebels is shown that the force manifests in different ways for different people. Anakin and Luke were clearly better at seeing into the future and using that to pilot. Rey is better at lifting rocks.


----------



## Shasarak (Feb 15, 2019)

Jester David said:


> dude, this isn’t even the first time I have pointed out that Rey can fight. That we see her fight with a staff before we even know she’s a Force user.




Of course she can fight, she can do everything!


----------



## Jester David (Feb 15, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> Of course she can fight, she can do everything!




Of course. She’s a larger than life mythic hero. They can always do everything.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Isn’t the simpler explanation that Luke was a crap student? Yoda says as much. He’s powerful but unfocused.
> And while there was years between movies, there’s no implication that Luke spent any time training. And we never see Luke learn or be trained in the mind trick.
> Even as a kid, when watching _Return of the Jed_, I felt Luke becoming a Jedi happened pretty fast and he’d barely spent any time actually training. But, apparently, learning to use the force just takes a couple weeks in a swamp.
> 
> ...




Savage was trained by the night sisters at male zabrak school and came from a dark side culture. His abilities were enganced by Mother Talzim and the he was apprentice to Mail who was a Sith Lord. 

 Rey was a good pilot but without any explaination. Sure things are rushed but it was established Luke was a pilot before he joined the rebellion. 

 Finn used a lightsaber as well but he used it like a club. Rey is good at everything with no explanation. I a super hero movie sure but in most cases in canon you have to do training for force powers at least if you are any good.  Untrained premonitions, minor telekinesis maybe, dreams etc sure. Using Jedi and Sith powers and a lightsaber erm derp. Luke was terrible with s lightsaber I. ANH although Obi guided him through it. Then he got more training and got the trained by Yoda t shirt.

 Sure they can declear legends non canon as well but same thing going back to the Thrawn Trilogy. Or the KoToR games etc. Canon and legends are the same here. 

 Jaina a Jedi Knight trained since birth still got trained to defeat her brother a Sith Lord. It's just the expectations of the genre IMHO.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Savage was trained by the night sisters at male zabrak school and came from a dark side culture. His abilities were enganced by Mother Talzim and the he was apprentice to Mail who was a Sith Lord.
> 
> Rey was a good pilot but without any explaination. Sure things are rushed but it was established Luke was a pilot before he joined the rebellion.
> 
> Finn used a lightsaber as well but he used it like a club. Rey is good at everything with no explanation. I a super hero movie sure but in most cases in canon you have to do training for force powers at least if you are any good.  Untrained premonitions, minor telekinesis maybe, dreams etc sure. Using Jedi and Sith powers and a lightsaber erm derp. Luke was terrible with s lightsaber I. ANH although Obi guided him through it. Then he got more training and got the trained by Yoda t shirt.



Funny how you skipped Ventress. 

Rey was a good pilot for the exact same reason Luke was a good pilot. And Anakin. And Flash Gordon for that reason. 
Because they were all larger than life mythic heroes.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Of course. She’s a larger than life mythic hero. They can always do everything.




Luke and Anakin couldn't. One of them was the chosen one. It's boring more than anything. If Rey steamrolls Kylo eh it's been done.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Luke and Anakin couldn't. One of them was the chosen one. It's boring more than anything. If Rey steamrolls Kylo eh it's been done.



Which is an excuse. It's a justification forgive them for stuff you're considering a deal breaker for Rey. Despite the fact the reason they were competent has 0% to do with the prophecy and 100% to do with them being protagonists. Look, just be honest with yourself. You clearly have a serious hang-up with Rey. The sooner you admit why you have a problem with her the sooner you can get on with your life. And the more likely you will enjoy Episode IX and Rian Johnson's forthcoming trilogy.


----------



## Shasarak (Feb 15, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Of course. She’s a larger than life mythic hero. They can always do everything.




Yep, the Mary-Sue archetype is new but still good.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 15, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> Yep, the Mary-Sue archetype is new but still good.



???The _term_ dates back to fanfiction from 1973. And was satirising unrealistic characters, which was a trope even then. But characters that fit the key traits of being a Gary/Mary sue are hundreds of years old. You can find examples in Victorian fiction from the 1850s.


----------



## Hussar (Feb 15, 2019)

Huh.  Luke is a farm hand.  Never fought anyone.  Probably never did more than fly in a couple of fairly non-dangerous races, maybe.  Certainly wasn't eking out a survival in a hostile environment.

Yet, without any formal training, is one of the greatest fighter pilots around.  And fantastic gunner of said fighter ships.  Considering he'd never actually been off world before, how exactly did he learn to fly fighters?   Especially the most advanced fighters around with an X-Wing?  It's like expecting a crop duster to be able to fly an F-15.  

But, hey, that's perfectly fine.  No problem.  Crack shot, expert pilot, engineer, all learned while farming.  

And Rey's the Mary Sue?  Really?  This is where we're going to draw the line?  That she manages to fight off Kylo Ren after he's seriously injured and bleeding all over the place?  Or we're hung up because some kid can force move a broom and that totally breaks canon?  

Blarg?


----------



## Shasarak (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Huh.  Luke is a farm hand.  Never fought anyone.  Probably never did more than fly in a couple of fairly non-dangerous races, maybe.  Certainly wasn't eking out a survival in a hostile environment.
> 
> Yet, without any formal training, is one of the greatest fighter pilots around.  And fantastic gunner of said fighter ships.  Considering he'd never actually been off world before, how exactly did he learn to fly fighters?   Especially the most advanced fighters around with an X-Wing?  It's like expecting a crop duster to be able to fly an F-15.
> 
> ...




Remember when Luke went up against Vader in the New Hope and defeated him in a Light Saber duel?

Me neither.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Funny how you skipped Ventress.
> 
> Rey was a good pilot for the exact same reason Luke was a good pilot. And Anakin. And Flash Gordon for that reason.
> Because they were all larger than life mythic heroes.




 I was at work and ran out of time. Ventress fits the pattern I am talking about. She had Jedi training and then was trained as a dark acolyte by Dooku a former Jedi master and a Sith Lord.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Huh.  Luke is a farm hand.  Never fought anyone.  Probably never did more than fly in a couple of fairly non-dangerous races, maybe.  Certainly wasn't eking out a survival in a hostile environment.
> 
> Yet, without any formal training, is one of the greatest fighter pilots around.  And fantastic gunner of said fighter ships.  Considering he'd never actually been off world before, how exactly did he learn to fly fighters?   Especially the most advanced fighters around with an X-Wing?  It's like expecting a crop duster to be able to fly an F-15.
> 
> ...




 Star Wars different than RL, civilians have flying cars things like T-16 Skyhoppers which have controls similar to an X-Wing. In ANH it was established Luke was a pilot, could shoot womp rats, and "had to much of his father in him". There is also precedent IRL as well if you could drive a truck you would probably find driving a Sherman tank similar. 

A star wars truck is a light freighter, being a pilot is a lot more common in their universe than ours. 

 Reys  not even that annoying her character has been somewhat badly portrayal. Shes less annoying than Jar Jar and Anakin in TPM and Anakin in AoTC.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> Remember when Luke went up against Vader in the New Hope and defeated him in a Light Saber duel?
> 
> Me neither.




 Anakin defeated Dooku as well IIRC as well in AoTC.

 The one main tweak I would have made is Rey losing to Kylo or giving her a tweaked back story (which I think she needs anyway). 

 If Kylo is loosly based off Jacen Solo in Legends I would have based her off Jaina maybe Mara Jade. Luke was fairly restrained in most of the legends material but they weren't allowed to kill him off and they often sidestepped around his powers either with force dampening creatures, star, or he retreated into the back ground due to iot wasn't his destiny to kill Jacen (and he feared falling to the darkside).

 Luke got a dark side point in ESB and RoTJ in RPG terms, they played up the temptation.

 Rey could have met Ahsoka Tano in TFA and then got the trained by Luke T-shirt in TLJ. They don't need a massive amount of world building IMHO but something would be nice. I owuld have used as female protagonist myself for the simple reason its something we hadn't seen before. The female Jedi were back ground characters for the most part, legends was full of them (and Sith Ladies). Its one thing Legends did better IMHO than even the prequels.

 I have a post Endor game and I'll have a Sith Sisterhood via a secret apprentice of Darth Maul before Obi Wan Killed him. I'll let the PCs defeat 2 of them but the rule of two will no longer apply so the master is still out there. They had a Brotherhood of Darkness, the men keep failing (including the rule of two). I'll borrow the One Sith idea from legacy and tweak it.


----------



## Shasarak (Feb 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Anakin defeated Dooku as well IIRC as well in AoTC.




That is a good point, Anakin did not fight Darth Maul either. Wow it seems like young untrained Force users have a history of not going up against Dark Jedi.  Remember when Anakin was killed by the Younglings?  Nah, me neither.



> The one main tweak I would have made is Rey losing to Kylo or giving her a tweaked back story (which I think she needs anyway).
> 
> If Kylo is loosly based off Jacen Solo in Legends I would have based her off Jaina maybe Mara Jade. Luke was fairly restrained in most of the legends material but they weren't allowed to kill him off and they often sidestepped around his powers either with force dampening creatures, star, or he retreated into the back ground due to iot wasn't his destiny to kill Jacen (and he feared falling to the darkside).
> 
> ...




Mara Jade was a cool character.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> That is a good point, Anakin did not fight Darth Maul either. Wow it seems like young untrained Force users have a history of not going up against Dark Jedi.  Remember when Anakin was killed by the Younglings?  Nah, me neither.
> 
> 
> 
> Mara Jade was a cool character.




 Yeah I ended up liking Jaina a lot as well, her brother really started to annoy me in the NJO, Mara was great in the Thrawn Trilogy. I think its part of why the Calista thing bombed so hard, the fans wanted Luke+ Mara. The main plotline went down hill after the Thrawn Duology though NJO was to disjointed and 15 books to long, Legacy of the Force looked good by comparison and I enjoyed it, Fate of the Jedi was not good. Retconning the NJO away and adding in Jaina and Jacen could have worked IMHO. They're already added Thrawn back into canon. 

 I did like the Legacy plotline with Cade. 
 Do you play Empire at War, the Thrawns Revenge mod is really good. 14 year old game soldiering on lol.


----------



## ccs (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Huh.  Luke is a farm hand.  Never fought anyone.  Probably never did more than fly in a couple of fairly non-dangerous races, maybe.  Certainly wasn't eking out a survival in a hostile environment.
> 
> Yet, without any formal training, is one of the greatest fighter pilots around.  And fantastic gunner of said fighter ships.  Considering he'd never actually been off world before, how exactly did he learn to fly fighters?   Especially the most advanced fighters around with an X-Wing?  It's like expecting a crop duster to be able to fly an F-15.
> 
> But, hey, that's perfectly fine.  No problem.  Crack shot, expert pilot, engineer, all learned while farming.




R2 doesn't get nearly enough credit....


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

ccs said:


> R2 doesn't get nearly enough credit....




 We crowned him the King of All Droids. 2nd or 3rd best actor in the prequels as well.


----------



## billd91 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussar said:


> And Rey's the Mary Sue?  Really?  This is where we're going to draw the line?  That she manages to fight off Kylo Ren after he's seriously injured and bleeding all over the place?  Or we're hung up because some kid can force move a broom and that totally breaks canon?
> 
> Blarg?




It’s the same old sexist BS. Guys can be super-competent action heroes all over the place - from Luke and Anakin to John McClane and Indiana Jones. But if it’s someone with a vagina she’s gotta be a Mary Sue.


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

billd91 said:


> It’s the same old sexist BS. Guys can be super-competent action heroes all over the place - from Luke and Anakin to John McClane and Indiana Jones. But if it’s someone with a vagina she’s gotta be a Mary Sue.




Only if done poorly for the wrong reasons with poor world building, storyline and basically throwing canon under the bus.
 Samantha Carter SG1 was great same with Teyla in Atlantis. Starbuck in BSG was fine. Orphan Black was great female protagonist, anything with Amanda Tapping really. Susan in Babylon 5.
 Claudia Black was more interesting than the other guy in Farscape.


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## ccs (Feb 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> We crowned him the King of All Droids. 2nd or 3rd best actor in the prequels as well.




I think you missed the point.

I mean, who do you think was _really_ flying & fighting that X-Wing most of the time?

Some whiney moisture farmer on his first trip off planet with supposed magic powers?
Or was it that astromech droid in the backseat - who's god knows how long over due for a memory wipe, is chock full of XP as a result, & earned that XP helping said whiney moisture farmers' father AND his fathers mentor become legends?

One of these two knows considerably more about flying & fighting an X-Wing than the other....


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## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

ccs said:


> I think you missed the point.
> 
> I mean, who do you think was _really_ flying & fighting that X-Wing most of the time?
> 
> ...




 RPG stats arto is a good pilot. He can't break his programing to fire weapons but Luke can. Artoo can definitely co pilot as well which is a bonus or advantage. 

 X-Wings RPG stats are also good a level 1 pilot could fly it well. Luke was level 4 or so in ANH. 

 RPG wise Luke was level 2 leveled up gaining a Jedi level with Obi Wan and leveled up again after the Death Star.

 I had lvl 1 PCs in TIE fighters. They're still better than the average imperial pilot.

Artoo King of All Droids.


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## Hussar (Feb 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Star Wars different than RL, civilians have flying cars things like T-16 Skyhoppers which have controls similar to an X-Wing. In ANH it was established Luke was a pilot, could shoot womp rats, and "had to much of his father in him". There is also precedent IRL as well if you could drive a truck you would probably find driving a Sherman tank similar.
> 
> A star wars truck is a light freighter, being a pilot is a lot more common in their universe than ours.
> 
> Reys  not even that annoying her character has been somewhat badly portrayal. Shes less annoying than Jar Jar and Anakin in TPM and Anakin in AoTC.




LOL.

Says someone who obviously has never seen the inside of a Sherman tank.  Hint, tiller bars and caterpillar treads are not the same as a truck.  Not even close.  And, never minding that a flying vehicle is considerably more difficult to operate.  But, without any training, apparently the farm hand can hop into the equivalent of an F15 and operate it without any problems.  In fact, he's a better pilot than the horde of TIE fighter pilots who had years of training, as well as the couple dozen or so Rebel pilots that get shot down.  

AFAIK, a T-16 isn't even shown in any of the movies.  Does it have shields?  How many engines does it have?  How many weapons?  It has ion cannons?  Torpedo launchers?  That's quite the truck you're driving there.

Oh, an with, what, a couple of weeks of training, Luke holds his own, and then later, defeats Vader in a saber duel.  That's some pretty intense training there.   

Good grief, whinging that Rey is a Mary Sue character in Star Wars is kinda pointless no?  EVERY Star Wars character is the best of the best.


----------



## ccs (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussar said:


> LOL.
> 
> Says someone who obviously has never seen the inside of a Sherman tank.  Hint, tiller bars and caterpillar treads are not the same as a truck.  Not even close.  And, never minding that a flying vehicle is considerably more difficult to operate.  But, without any training, apparently the farm hand can hop into the equivalent of an F15 and operate it without any problems.  In fact, he's a better pilot than the horde of TIE fighter pilots who had years of training, as well as the couple dozen or so Rebel pilots that get shot down.




I just explained who's _really_ flying & fighting that X-Wing. 



Hussar said:


> AFAIK, a T-16 isn't even shown in any of the movies.




Sure it is.  It's the wedge winged model Luke's playing with while 3P0's in the oil bath.

 
I'll just assume there's shots of a "real" one in action somewhere in the Special Edition re-edits...


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## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussar said:


> LOL.
> 
> Says someone who obviously has never seen the inside of a Sherman tank.  Hint, tiller bars and caterpillar treads are not the same as a truck.  Not even close.  And, never minding that a flying vehicle is considerably more difficult to operate.  But, without any training, apparently the farm hand can hop into the equivalent of an F15 and operate it without any problems.  In fact, he's a better pilot than the horde of TIE fighter pilots who had years of training, as well as the couple dozen or so Rebel pilots that get shot down.
> 
> ...




Probably more comparable to a cropduster feing able to fly a military biplane.  I think T 16s have a small gun he used to shoot womp rats.

 They established in the movievhevwas a pilot. He said he could fly the falcon.  They established he was a marksman and x wings have R2.

 Luke also had to much of his father in him who was one of the greatest pilots in the Galaxy. All of that was ANH. 

 Take Finn. He gad military training it's not unreasonable he can use a gun or function ad a Gunner. Ww2 had a black cook man an AA gun atvPearl Harbor. 

 Rey didn't even use a blaster until Han gave her one. Yeah dsure we don't really need an explaination about her using a staff or Kylo using freeze blaster bolt.
 Finn swung it like a club he wasn't deflecting blaster bolts.

 It wasn't just Rey either the little kid could use telekinesis. What's the point of training or having padawans in all of the previous movies.

 Even in legends untrained force users were dangerous more due to the dark side than spontaneous use of force lightning.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

ccs said:


> I just explained who's _really_ flying & fighting that X-Wing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Forgot about that. Luke's a pilot though. It's like Lucas thought about plot and world building.

 T-16s have a laser cannons, a pneumatic gun and Luke used to bullseye womp rats in em. So yes he can fly and use weapons.

 In SWSE RPG he had 2 feats, skill focus piloting, force sensitive hit level 3 being trained and spent that feat on skill traing use the force and picked up lightsaber use via mcing into Jedi. At the end of ANH he uses the force blows a force point or maybe a destiny point for an auto crit on the deathstar reactor that casing probably had less than 200 hit points. 

Hmmmn Rey could be KoToR style an have altered memories that would make her character make sense if she is similar to Revan.


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## Hussar (Feb 15, 2019)

ccs said:


> I just explained who's _really_ flying & fighting that X-Wing.




Ahh, so, we're back to inventing interpretations.




> Sure it is.  It's the wedge winged model Luke's playing with while 3P0's in the oil bath.
> View attachment 104831
> I'll just assume there's shots of a "real" one in action somewhere in the Special Edition re-edits...




Cool.  I never actually knew that.  But, by the same token, umm, I'm thinking that that's not really the same as flying one of the most advanced fighters out there.  

So, we're free to invent interpretations where it's actually R2, who, had never been shown to be able to fly anything previously, piloting Luke's X-wing, but, it's a bridge too far to think that Rey might have learned to shoot a gun at some point in her history of surviving?  

Yeah, now I remember why I these conversations are just so baffling.  

Legends?  What's that?  Don't exist.  Not canon.  Don't care.  All that stuff you learned from the RPG or from some novel?  Not true.  It's a figment of someone's imagination.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 15, 2019)

Istbor said:


> That scene was meant to show that it was an important moment for Rey, not that in the grand scheme of the galaxy. I felt it illustrated that well enough.  She will likely never forget that shuttle flying off without her, but perhaps those parents are really not consequential to the greater story at play.  And that is alright.
> 
> Not everyone has to come from amazing storied parents.



I think it's totally legitimate to say "Rey's parents are not important in the grand scheme of thigns". But the thing is, they were definitely important to Rey. And TLJ's "answer" to what her parents are is not really meaningful or useful to the story. She still want to know who her parents where and why they left her. And I am not convinced a Vader-wannabe's word would satisfy that desire to know. 



I think the whole discussion about "training" and "to good out of the gate" really misses what the important thing is: We see Luke or Anakin struggle, lose and fail in the movies. They are good, talented, gifted and mythical heroes, but they must still fight and can fail, and then pick themselves up.

The thing that realy seems to be missing there is the "struggle" part with Rey. There might be perfectly good reasons why she could fight well, fly well, and beat an injured Kylo Ren. But the excitement and the identification with characters become usually more strong when you see them fail first, and then pick themselves up. That's probably also a reason why ESB is now so popular, because it ends with Luke failure to beat Vader and him having to deal knowing his father is the vilain he hated all this time - and we know he'll pick himself up in RotJ. (And he doesn't just fail the fight with Vader, his training is not really going so great at first.)


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Sure they can declear legends non canon doesn't make it go away. If it wasn't for the Thrawn Trilogy Disney couldn't buy Star Wars as the old legends popularity put Star Wars back into the cultural awareness. Not that we actually need to resort to legends material that much but they portrayed interesting female characters well. Just don't mention Daala though that was crappy writing for that character. She had a good intro like Rey though.

 The OT movies are not perfect (ESB comes close though).


----------



## Shasarak (Feb 15, 2019)

billd91 said:


> It’s the same old sexist BS. Guys can be super-competent action heroes all over the place - from Luke and Anakin to John McClane and Indiana Jones. But if it’s someone with a vagina she’s gotta be a Mary Sue.




Obviously she has to have a vagina to be a Mary Sue.


----------



## ccs (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Ahh, so, we're back to inventing interpretations.




Ahh, one of those SW fans who's too rigid about it for some humor.






Hussar said:


> Cool.  I never actually knew that.  But, by the same token, umm, I'm thinking that that's not really the same as flying one of the most advanced fighters out there.




(shrugs)  I don't know.  Luke claimed it, the rebels basically accepted it.  Me?  Well, I also don't worry about Flash Gordon manages to fly a ship.  They fly their ships because that's the genre.



Hussar said:


> So, we're free to invent interpretations where it's actually R2, who, had never been shown to be able to fly anything previously, piloting Luke's X-wing,




{WARNING: Star Wars humor ahead.}
Oh no.  If you watch the movies in the order they're released of course you wouldn't realize that R2 is this capable.  For an astro-mech droid he's still pretty crafty & tricky though.  And 3P0 comments on this.
But as you watch ESB, RotJ....
And then you watch him in action throughout the prequels & Clone Wars series....
So by the time we get to ANH?  Of course he's better in the X-Wing than Luke!

I don't think this is what was intended.  Not at all.  Clearly it's the story of Luke Skywalker becoming the hero of the galaxy.
It's just one of those humorous things that piles up after 5 additional movies + a cartoon series gets done using a character.
Years after the original you're left pondering just how experienced R2 really is going into the Battle of Yavin. 
Hmmm....




Hussar said:


> but, it's a bridge too far to think that Rey might have learned to shoot a gun at some point in her history of surviving?
> 
> Yeah, now I remember why I these conversations are just so baffling.




Don't mix me up with Zard etc.  I don't have a problem with the heroes of the story doing their thing.  Of course they can do their thing.  That's the genre!
I just wish the current batch of movies had been better.
And when Disney wants me to know the backstory of how Rey can fight or fly or whatever so well?  Then they'll try & sell me another movie tkt or a comic or a streaming subscription or something.  



Hussar said:


> Legends?  What's that?  Don't exist.  Not canon.  Don't care.  All that stuff you learned from the RPG or from some novel?  Not true.  It's a figment of someone's imagination.




That I can agree with.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Other genres don't matter that much to me. Rambo was an ex soldier its all you really need to know, Ripley is a marine, but even in Superhero movies they normally have something to explain the superpowers. Its not that Rey has them its that she has them and is so power "just because".

 They can't work out a big backstory due to say the 2 hours or so but in ANH.

1. Lukes father was a great pilot.
2. Luke is a piot
3. He is a good shooter
4. He is force sensitive
5. He struggled a bit with his 1st lesson.
6. He used very few force powers as such and barely used the force at all (vs the drone and DS run).

 If Luke was female she still ticks all the boxes.

 Switch Rey to male and you still have the same problem. There is still a lack of character development, he would still have all these unexplained powers in a setting where its established how to get them. Hypothetical Ray is still boring because he never got tempted by the darkside, never really got defeated, never lost any limbs and was using these powers even Luke and Anakin had to learn either directly or heavily implied (Anakin spent 10 years with the Jedi Order TPM-AoTC). 

 Using a different genre. Game of Thrones, does anyone at all like Sansa vs Arya. I'm sure there are some Sansa fans somewhere but who will win a popularity contest there?

 Another genre because I'm an 80's kid. Hulk Hogan Mr America superhero vs Stone Cold Steve Austin or the peoples champion Rock. Who is more interesting.

 Farscape Crichton or Arryn Synn?

 Who do you love to hate more. Joffrey or Ramsey Bolton? 

 Batman the Dark Knight vs the recent one?

 Sure a lot of these characters are grittier but still. Now do you see my point? Do you like the face or the tweener since someone earlier in the thread used face/heel. How about heel/heel then.

Vader or Kylo
Kylo or Thrawn(canon)
Kylo or Thrawn (legends)
Daala (legends) or Rae Sloan (the Disney one is better here BTW)
Phasma or Boba Fett?

Or

Jaina Solo (legends) vs Rey
Mara Jade (legends) vs Rey
Asajj Ventress Vs Rey
Ahsoka Tano vs Rey


----------



## GreyLord (Feb 15, 2019)

It's hard to say who hardcore fans are or who non-hardcore fans are.

I'll put me in the non-hardcore fan...

I'd say for MOST casual fans The Last Jedi is a disaster.  After seeing it most are...meh.  There's nothing really left.  The New Sequel Trilogy has destroyed the Original Trilogy down past the foundations...there's just about nothing left.  There was no success from the Original Trilogy that the New Sequels seemingly have not undone.

Meaning...what's the point anymore anyways?

The biggest disaster is NOT the hardcore fans tearing the movie apart.  It is NOT an inconsistency of the past or present, and it is NOT people arguing about various things regarding canon or not canon.

The Biggest disaster is that the casual movie goer doesn't really care anymore.  They aren't really interested.  It is that they are more...meh...towards Star Wars today than they were two years ago.

This entire meh...has been reflected in sales outside of the movies.  Toy Sales are down (and the most concerning to me in ways which are bothersome) and I am NOT blaming the Toy company on this one.  They did their job.  Some speculation on the release timing...but that timing would have been fine if attitudes hadn't shot down.

It's not oversaturation of the market or some ridiculous thing like that.  Toy sales are pretty good for Marvel toys in general...and they released FAR more movies in the past 3 years than Star Wars has.  If anything had oversaturation...it would be Marvel at this point.  Marvel simply shows that if you write movies in a way that caters to fans and draws kids to want to play with the toys...they will.

One problem with TLJ is that most of the toys weren't cool.  What I mean is that those bombers...not exactly something that inspires kids to play with them...the same goes for those new Speeders (I'm not sure what they are called....they are the idea of the Snow Speeders from Empire...but have a ski don't look as slick).

Diversity has nothing to do with it.  The movie just did not resonate with their core audiences as well as it should have.  It was probably a pretty good movie as movies go, but for those that would buy Star Wars merchandise and go to more Star Wars movies...probably not so great.  

I'd say the brand may be in DEEEEP trouble right now.  I'd also say Disney is in a wait and see mode.  CAN Abrahms resurrect it once again?  He's pretty good at bringing brands back or ensuring that they are viable.  I think there are many holding their breath right now.  If this movie flops...I'm thinking it may be shelved as a movie series for a while and relegated to TV via streaming.

If it is a success...it depends on how much IX is a success.  Can it resurrect diving sales of merchandise?  Will it equal or make more than The Last Jedi.  Predictions are all over the place.  Some say it may be a bomb...others say it stands a good chance of at least making a few hundred million more than The Last Jedi.

I think a LOT depends on fan perception of the trailer coming out (hopefully less Aladdin and more Frozen 2) and a LOT is riding on how IX does at the theater.  Solo was a warning that the brand may need some work...IX will be confirmation on where it actually currently stands.  Hopefully they do all the right things with IX and make it so that the casual fans find interest to spend money on toys, merchandise...and of course...tickets...when IX comes out.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> It's hard to say who hardcore fans are or who non-hardcore fans are.
> 
> I'll put me in the non-hardcore fan...
> 
> ...




 This person gets it. TFA I wanted to see the next one, yeah Rey was a bit OP but it was fun. TLJ not so much.

 Stopped buying SW merch after the Disney buyout. Mine was mostly comics and novels, not action figures. Just didn't want to go through it again and took a wait and see approach and the Aftermath Trilogy basically confirmed it (compared with the Thrawn Trilogy).

 Nuke the old EU sure can't really make a new movie out of it. Replace it with something worse erm no thanks. I would have nuked the post Endor stuff and cherry picked some of the old EU for the new canon mostly KotOR stuff and some of the prequel books like the Vader and Darth Bane/Plageius books. People seemed to like them and it would not interfere with the new movies.

 I'll probably go see IX regardless, but I watched TFA 3 times at the theatre and paid to rent it online as well.


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## Ovinomancer (Feb 15, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> It's hard to say who hardcore fans are or who non-hardcore fans are.
> 
> I'll put me in the non-hardcore fan...
> 
> ...



What?! TLJ grossed over a $1B and has good reviews (see above).  You should actually collect facts before assuming your opinion is representative of a huge number of people.


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## GreyLord (Feb 15, 2019)

Ovinomancer said:


> What?! TLJ grossed over a $1B and has good reviews (see above).  You should actually collect facts before assuming your opinion is representative of a huge number of people.




Okay...I can see someone did not read a thing I wrote...either that or didn't understand what I wrote.


----------



## Ovinomancer (Feb 15, 2019)

I think to grokked you.  You clearly said TLJ was a "disaster" for the "casual fans."  A "disaster" that's one of tge highest grossing movies of all time (inflation adjusted) and that has positive reviews.  You base this on reception of a different movie and toy sales being sluggish, apparently.  It's riduculous, especially since there are already good explanations for both that don't invlove TLJ (Solo wasn't a desired story and had very expensive production, frex.)  You even counter yourself when you say toy sales are down but it's not the toy company's fault, but also that the toys are boring and unfun.  How does that work, exactly?

Again, you've started with thinking you know what a group of fans likes and are ignoring strong counter-evidence or just hand-waving it away.  That's not how it works, man.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 15, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> I'd say for MOST casual fans The Last Jedi is a disaster.  After seeing it most are...meh.  There's nothing really left.  The New Sequel Trilogy has destroyed the Original Trilogy down past the foundations...there's just about nothing left.  There was no success from the Original Trilogy that the New Sequels seemingly have not undone.Meaning...what's the point anymore anyways?



This was ALWAYS going to happen. There was no way around it. To have a sequel you need conflict and drama. You need a problem to be solved. An enemy. The galaxy needs to be in danger.That inherently means the heroes had to fail. The Empire need to come back. There's no way around it beyond pulling a brand new unseen enemy out of your ass and forcing it into the world. And that almost never works and everyone would complain "this doesn't feel like Star Wars".







GreyLord said:


> The biggest disaster is NOT the hardcore fans tearing the movie apart.  It is NOT an inconsistency of the past or present, and it is NOT people arguing about various things regarding canon or not canon.



No True Scotsman. He's the thing… there is a big spike of people rating this movie a "1" is high. Higher than _Phantom Menace_. But a solid majority of viewers rate this movie the same or higher than _Phantom Menace_. The people who hate the movie are a small, insignificant percentage. Most people, casual AND hardcore *liked* this film.







GreyLord said:


> The Biggest disaster is that the casual movie goer doesn't really care anymore.  They aren't really interested.  It is that they are more...meh...towards Star Wars today than they were two years ago.



Based on what? The one data point we have is _Solo_, but it's foolish to draw any reliable conclusion from a single data point. Maybe people just didn't want a Solo movie? Maybe people were scared off by the drama of the changing directors? Maybe it came too soon after TLJ and people weren't ready for more Star Wars. Maybe too many people needed a break from big blockbuster movies after _Deadpool 2_ released the week before and _Infinity War_ three weeks prior? People seem very excited for both the new Star Wars streaming shows on Disney+ and Episode IX. 







GreyLord said:


> This entire meh...has been reflected in sales outside of the movies.  Toy Sales are down (and the most concerning to me in ways which are bothersome) and I am NOT blaming the Toy company on this one.  They did their job.  Some speculation on the release timing...but that timing would have been fine if attitudes hadn't shot down.



Because kids care about the quality of a movie when they buy their toys? Yeah… I don't think so. I have an eight-year-old. He'll watch anything.The toys were released too far ahead of the movie, so they weren't available during holidays, or when people cared about the movie. They dropped in September and weren't able to hold interest until December. Also, if you read the toy threads, the big complaint is that the diversity of the toys is limited. There were fewer new aliens, vehicles, and the like. Toys bought from the previous movie would work. And there's some complaints about quality. It's unrelated to TLJ and would have happened even if TLJ was a smash.







GreyLord said:


> It's not oversaturation of the market or some ridiculous thing like that.  Toy sales are pretty good for Marvel toys in general...and they released FAR more movies in the past 3 years than Star Wars has.  If anything had oversaturation...it would be Marvel at this point.  Marvel simply shows that if you write movies in a way that caters to fans and draws kids to want to play with the toys...they will.



That's just wrong.It isn't limited to Star Wars. Toy sales are down across the board. By 2%. Haso revenue dropped 2% as well. But rival Mattel dropped 12%And Toys R Us closing also hit toy sales hard, as there were fewer places to buy said toys.







GreyLord said:


> Diversity has nothing to do with it.  The movie just did not resonate with their core audiences as well as it should have.  It was probably a pretty good movie as movies go, but for those that would buy Star Wars merchandise and go to more Star Wars movies...probably not so great.



BS.There is a very clear racist and sexist hatred for the movie and its actors. Again, when you look at the number of 1-star ratings for the film, that percentage is twice as high for men than women. If the film was just bad, both genders would rate it equally, like they had done with every prior Star Wars film.While you may believe your own complaints aren't based in misogyny (I can't say) don't kid yourself and pretend the hatred doesn't exist. 







GreyLord said:


> I'd say the brand may be in DEEEEP trouble right now.  I'd also say Disney is in a wait and see mode.  CAN Abrahms resurrect it once again?  He's pretty good at bringing brands back or ensuring that they are viable.  I think there are many holding their breath right now.  If this movie flops...I'm thinking it may be shelved as a movie series for a while and relegated to TV via streaming.



RUINED FOREVER!!TLJ made 1.3 billion at the box office alone, and an untold amount on disc, VOD, and steaming. That's probably pure profit of 3/4 of a billion dollars. That's deep trouble?Does anyone remotely think for a SECOND that Episode IX won't do equally well? Especially since it will have been a year-and-a-half since _Solo_ and people are already gagging for more Star Wars...


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Jester David said:


> This was ALWAYS going to happen. There was no way around it. To have a sequel you need conflict and drama. You need a problem to be solved. An enemy. The galaxy needs to be in danger.That inherently means the heroes had to fail. The Empire need to come back. There's no way around it beyond pulling a brand new unseen enemy out of your ass and forcing it into the world. And that almost never works and everyone would complain "this doesn't feel like Star Wars".No True Scotsman. He's the thing… there is a big spike of people rating this movie a "1" is high. Higher than _Phantom Menace_. But a solid majority of viewers rate this movie the same or higher than _Phantom Menace_. The people who hate the movie are a small, insignificant percentage. Most people, casual AND hardcore *liked* this film.Based on what? The one data point we have is _Solo_, but it's foolish to draw any reliable conclusion from a single data point. Maybe people just didn't want a Solo movie? Maybe people were scared off by the drama of the changing directors? Maybe it came too soon after TLJ and people weren't ready for more Star Wars. Maybe too many people needed a break from big blockbuster movies after _Deadpool 2_ released the week before and _Infinity War_ three weeks prior? People seem very excited for both the new Star Wars streaming shows on Disney+ and Episode IX. Because kids care about the quality of a movie when they buy their toys? Yeah… I don't think so. I have an eight-year-old. He'll watch anything.The toys were released too far ahead of the movie, so they weren't available during holidays, or when people cared about the movie. They dropped in September and weren't able to hold interest until December. Also, if you read the toy threads, the big complaint is that the diversity of the toys is limited. There were fewer new aliens, vehicles, and the like. Toys bought from the previous movie would work. And there's some complaints about quality. It's unrelated to TLJ and would have happened even if TLJ was a smash.That's just wrong.It isn't limited to Star Wars. Toy sales are down across the board. By 2%. Haso revenue dropped 2% as well. But rival Mattel dropped 12%And Toys R Us closing also hit toy sales hard, as there were fewer places to buy said toys.BS.There is a very clear racist and sexist hatred for the movie and its actors. Again, when you look at the number of 1-star ratings for the film, that percentage is twice as high for men than women. If the film was just bad, both genders would rate it equally, like they had done with every prior Star Wars film.While you may believe your own complaints aren't based in misogyny (I can't say) don't kid yourself and pretend the hatred doesn't exist. RUINED FOREVER!!TLJ made 1.3 billion at the box office alone, and an untold amount on disc, VOD, and steaming. That's probably pure profit of 3/4 of a billion dollars. That's deep trouble?Does anyone remotely think for a SECOND that Episode IX won't do equally well? Especially since it will have been a year-and-a-half since _Solo_ and people are already gagging for more Star Wars...




TFA made 700 million on 2 billion so yeah IIDK if TLJ actually made that much I assume they spent less pushing it in places like CHina where they flew a heap of stormtroopers out to pose on the wall. 

 I'm not pretending the hatred doesn't exist, squeaky wheels tend to get as lot of grease. TLJ is not a one star movie, its way to early to call IX one way or another. THeres enough wrong with TLJ as is I htink from plot points or likeable charatcers or where tdo you go from here.

 For example if you are a Rey fan what do you do with her in IX. Do you want her to defeat Kylo or redeem him or something else. Kylo is weak he has been losing since TFA so its not very dramatic if he loses again. What hobbies or interests does Rey have (Luke wanted to go to the academy).

 Getting away from Rey we'll look at Finn. He runs like a coward in TFA. We'll give him a pass it happens early in the movie, like Han towards the end of the movie he is a hero- he has found his courage. TLJ rolls around and he is running again back to where he started.

Poe. Was not actually in TFA that much but we know he is a damn good pilot and that is shown later in the film. TLJ rolls around he he gets his squadron killed of to the last man (women), even the death star run had a few survivors. They portray him as a hot head right through the film. 

 Kylo Ren.
 Comes across as a whiny kid. They didnt seem to follow up on his thing about Snoke training him at the end of TFA.

HUx
Hux was great in TFA, I kinda want to pay money to see him lose. Gets used as comic relief.

Phasma.
Potentially a great new character. And then she oses again for the 2nd movie in a row. Looks kewl her look can't back up her lameness as a villain. 

Snoke
 Heres your new big bad, he is interesting and now he is dead. It was kind of clever how they portrayed him reading Kylos mood though. They got rid of him a one movie to early this would have been a great scene for the 3rd movie.

 And this is how the characters are barely tied together. They were hinting at a romance angle with Rey and Finn for example. Nope that lead no where as well. Anaklns lightsaber scene in TFA interesting yes, nope it got broken. New big ass ship, nope got trashed as well. JJ seeded lots of little plot hooks. There is subverting audience expectations (the farm girl saves the prince) and then there is the chainsaw approach. They never even really put much effort into explaining the First Order and how they are so powerful post Endor. A simple line about the rebirth of the empire rising from the ashes would have been fine you don't need to put a massive amount into it. 

 Its not just limited to Rey its everything good from TFA basically was not followed up on or thrown away. As bad at TPM and AotC were (and they were bad) it had better world building and character development. Didn't care about Anakin or Padme in the prequels that much but Obi Wan was good. Anakin was decent enough in RoTS. 

 And its not just Rey using force powers untrained we have a kid using telekinesis as well. Seeing Rey plow through everything unscathed might work alright in a different genre like a super hero movie but even in an action movie the protagonist isn't usually portrayed as invincible. John McClane in Die Hard. Kinda works better in cartoons.

 The reason people seem excited about the Disney cartoons was Rebels was very good, tied it back to the OT and Clone Wars well and used returning characters like Thrawn and Ahsoka well. Ahsoka was annoying when she debuted (because she was a kid a'la Anakin in TPM) but she is great now. You also cared about the new characters like Sabine, Hera, Ezra. The best Star Wars since the OT has been the cartoons.

 Fantasy Booking

 TFA mostly as is. In the end scene Kylo kills Han, Chewie takes the shot. Kylo being a powerful bad guy negates it a'la vader, uses somethign like a force shield or feels it coming and dodges it.

 Rey gets away and the movie proceeds to the duel. Kylo is unwounded and owns Rey+ Finn but they survive but Kylo is wounded in the duel (the heroes flee). Otherwise the duel roughly happens as is. The crack opens in the ground and the movie ends more or less as is.

 In a hypothetical part XIII Rey gets trained, Kylo also gets trained, Snoke sends him out and about and Rey and him have a brief encounter. Like Anakin and Obi Wan they try using force powers on each other but they counter it. Episode XIII ends Snoke is still around and Rey+Kylos encounter is a draw. In Part IX Rey encounters Lukes force ghost, some revelation, later on we get the final. They have the throne room scene and then Rey and Kylo face each other and if its a combat Rey wins. All this really changes is.

1. Kylo is powerful in TFA. He is an effective villain can stop blaster bolts in mid air and can dodge bowcaster shots or otherwise survive them.

2. While powerful he is not vader. Gets more training, so does Kylo. Rey is a better student, encounter 2 is a draw makes it different from Empire where Vader wins. 

3. Something happens to Rey and she gets even more powerful (she learns to draw on the dark side perhaps). She has enough power to now go and defeat Kylo/Snoke. Anakin and Luke both took down Sith lords in the 3rd movie, Snoke/Kylo are not Sith but you get my point.


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## Jester David (Feb 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Heres enough wrong with TLJ as is I think from plot points or likeable characters or where do you go from here.



It's not nearly as hard as you make it. 

Heck, after _Empire _it looked like Star Wars 3 would be all about saving Han and a big rescue mission. Instead, they resolved that whole plot arc in like 15 minutes and then moved on, pretty much dropping most of the seeds sown by THE BEST Star Wars movie in favour of recycling the plot of _Star Wars 1_.

There's no shortage of directions they can go. 
Heck, it's significantly easier to think of storylines for Episode IX than it was to think of a story for Episode VII. 

*Story Hook 1: Hux vs Ren*
The Resistance has gone to ground, hiding and rebuilding its numbers, waiting for its time to strike. The First Order has been cementing its grip but the tensions between General Hux and Kylo Ren for control and leadership have been growing, and are now reaching a climax. With the First Order poised to turn on itself, they're distracted and now is the Resistance's time to strike a decisive blow.

*Story Hook 2: Knights of Ren*
Seeking to end the threat of Rey before she can become a full Jedi and begin training others, Ren dispatches his Knights to hunt her down. 
The story is more of a chase, as Rey tries to elude the knights, fighting them when she thinks she has the advantage. But the longer the hunt goes on the more tired and injured she becomes. 

*Story Hook 3: Another Spherical Super Weapon*
This is almost certainly what they'll do, because Abrams hasn't had an original idea and all his films copy something else. So he'll do a big homage to _Return of the Jedi_ and cycle back to the First Order making yet another planet destroying weapon that a fleet of ships needs to blow up.

[video=youtube;yd0j97RhZUQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd0j97RhZUQ[/video]

Regardless, Episode IX will be about the death of Kylo Ren. 
He's the final member of the Skywalker line, which has been the heart of the "Star Wars Saga". He needs to die and end that storyline, freeing up the franchise to go in different directions rather than being shackled to the idea of an Episode X, which will invariably have to negate the victories of the heroes in Episode IX. 



Zardnaar said:


> The reason people seem excited about the Disney cartoons was Rebels was very good, tied it back to the OT and Clone Wars well and used returning characters like Thrawn and Ahsoka well. Ahsoka was annoying when she debuted (because she was a kid a'la Anakin in TPM) but she is great now. You also cared about the new characters like Sabine, Hera, Ezra. The best Star Wars since the OT has been the cartoons.



I'll come out and say it: _Rebels_ was okay at best. A far cry from the amazing peaks of _Clone Wars_. 

_Rebels_ got better but it started weak. Really weak. Nowhere planet. Irrelevant stakes. Unlikable characters. Plus, having a surviving Jedi that lived despite being a young Padawan, making the deaths of so many trained Jedi seem cheap and minimizes the survival of Obi-Wan and Yoda. 
It got better around the later seasons when they started building to the Rebel Alliance and brought in Ashoka. But they couldn't even give her a proper death and chickened out. 

And funny how you're silent about _Resistance_...


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## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Jester David said:


> It's not nearly as hard as you make it.
> 
> Heck, after _Empire _it looked like Star Wars 3 would be all about saving Han and a big rescue mission. Instead, they resolved that whole plot arc in like 15 minutes and then moved on, pretty much dropping most of the seeds sown by THE BEST Star Wars movie in favour of recycling the plot of _Star Wars 1_.
> 
> ...




 IDK what Resistance is about. And there is a reaosn RotJ is regarded as the weakest of the original 3. 

 I liked Season 2 of rebels on. Found it easier to get into than season 1 of TCW.


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## Jester David (Feb 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> IDK what Resistance is about. And there is a reaosn RotJ is regarded as the weakest of the original 3.
> 
> I liked Season 2 of rebels on. Found it easier to get into than season 1 of TCW.




[video=youtube;m7Pls-vYWwM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7Pls-vYWwM[/video]


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## Neonchameleon (Feb 15, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> Remember when Luke went up against Vader in the New Hope and defeated him in a Light Saber duel?
> 
> Me neither.






Zardnaar said:


> Anakin defeated Dooku as well IIRC as well in AoTC.
> 
> The one main tweak I would have made is Rey losing to Kylo or giving her a tweaked back story (which I think she needs anyway).




Luke in his first time in combat and his first time in an X-wing went up against professional elite pilots and kicked their asses while outflying almost all the experienced Rebel Alliance pilots. He then makes a literally impossible shot, turning off his targeting computer when Obi-Wan tells him to use the force.

As for the lightsaber battle, if you watched then Darth Emo was kicking Rey's ass despite her being an experienced staff-fighter (established earlier in the story; there's far more textual evidence Rey could handle herself in melee in actual combat than that Rey had flown anything more than his speeder). And then he made a mistake - he told her to use the force at which point she called on the dark side of the force (seriously, look at her face during that scene - that isn't peace and serenity or other light side things) and was able to overcome what had previously been impossible for her. They both had help from a more experienced force user in order to pull off their huge thing at the end.

The three big differences are that kicking Darth Emo's ass when he isn't using the force isn't that humanly impossible, being thrown in the deep end and swimming by having your mind invaded, then by force of will reversing it and seeing how to use the force from inside the head of a force user (as Rey did) is far more useful in learning to use the Force than poncing around with a blindfold against shock globes (which is about the equivalent of water wings in the baby pool), and her skills are legitimately gained with staff fighting (and she fought with the lightsaber as if it was a staff) rather than beyond professional in her first fight nonsense with an X-wing


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## Shasarak (Feb 15, 2019)

Neonchameleon said:


> Luke in his first time in combat and his first time in an X-wing went up against professional elite pilots and kicked their asses while outflying almost all the experienced Rebel Alliance pilots. He then makes a literally impossible shot, turning off his targeting computer when Obi-Wan tells him to use the force.




You may want to watch that movie again, Luke gets saved from the professional elite pilots by Han.

If it was Rey then she would have just killed them all herself while all the other X-Wings watch, she is that good.


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## Neonchameleon (Feb 15, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> You may want to watch that movie again, Luke gets saved from the professional elite pilots by Han.
> 
> If it was Rey then she would have just killed them all herself while all the other X-Wings watch, she is that good.




You may want to watch that movie again. Luke gets saved from _Darth Vader_ by Han. He more than holds his own with the normal pros.

If it was Rey she'd have had something like a home field advantage to use to even the odds in her favour.


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## Shasarak (Feb 15, 2019)

Neonchameleon said:


> You may want to watch that movie again. Luke gets saved from _Darth Vader_ by Han. He more than holds his own with the normal pros.
> 
> If it was Rey she'd have had something like a home field advantage to use to even the odds in her favour.




If we look at Lukes character arc the first thing that we see is him getting ambushed by Tusken Raiders and saved by Obi-Wan and the last thing we see is him attacking the Death Star with all the other Rebels.

In contrast Reys character arc starts off defeating the elite professional Tie Fighters in a ship that she just stole and then her arc ends in her defeating a Dark Jedi in a Light Saber duel.

So where is her growth in that?  She starts off awesome and ends up awesome.  You can not get more Mary Sue then that unless she managed to blow up the Super Death Star while at the same time defeating Kylo.


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## Neonchameleon (Feb 15, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> If we look at Lukes character arc the first thing that we see is him getting ambushed by Tusken Raiders and saved by Obi-Wan and the last thing we see is him attacking the Death Star with all the other Rebels.
> 
> In contrast Reys character arc starts off defeating the elite professional Tie Fighters in a ship that she just stole and then her arc ends in her defeating a Dark Jedi in a Light Saber duel.
> 
> So where is her growth in that?  She starts off awesome and ends up awesome.  You can not get more Mary Sue then that unless she managed to blow up the Super Death Star while at the same time defeating Kylo.




If we look at Rey's character arc, it comes with her finding and then starting to sell BB-8. Power doesn't make a character arc, choices do. Unlike Luke she doesn't have a motivation "Follow The Plot".

Meanwhile, unlike Luke, she needs a very substantial home ground advantage to deal with the TIE fighters (who unlike in ANH aren't on the new elite ship of the Empire) in a ship she at least flubs on take-off, that can and does take multiple hits, and using tactics from Finn.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

I don't think anyone would care that much about Rey being awesome on occasion. She's always awesome I s the issue. Luke spent the first half of the Trilogy always being saved. Sure he had his spots but he wasn't that over the top. Gets beaten by Tuskans , Han saves him, and he gets mauled by. Wompa nauls him Han saves him again.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Jester David said:


> [video=youtube;m7Pls-vYWwM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7Pls-vYWwM[/video]




Cheers I'll check it out in a bit. Context of posting please


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## Shasarak (Feb 15, 2019)

Neonchameleon said:


> If we look at Rey's character arc, it comes with her finding and then starting to sell BB-8. Power doesn't make a character arc, choices do. Unlike Luke she doesn't have a motivation "Follow The Plot".
> 
> Meanwhile, unlike Luke, she needs a very substantial home ground advantage to deal with the TIE fighters (who unlike in ANH aren't on the new elite ship of the Empire) in a ship she at least flubs on take-off, that can and does take multiple hits, and using tactics from Finn.




How can she have a "home ground advantage" when she does not fly around her home ground?  You know there is a pretty substansial difference between walking and flying right?.  Luke had a "home ground advantage" and he still got punked.

It baffles me the amount of mental gymnastics that you have to go through to equate the two characters.  You wring your hands about Luke and a bunch of X-Wings defeating professional Tie Fighters and at the same time give Rey a free pass because of "home ground advantage"?

By that logic the Tie Fighters in RotJ should have easily taken out Lando with their "home ground advantage"


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## billd91 (Feb 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I don't think anyone would care that much about Rey being awesome on occasion. She's always awesome I s the issue. Luke spent the first half of the Trilogy always being saved. Sure he had his spots but he wasn't that over the top. Gets beaten by Tuskans , Han saves him, and he gets mauled by. Wompa nauls him Han saves him again.




But, of course, she's not, yet you will ignore all those instances in which she is because they won't fit your thesis.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

billd91 said:


> But, of course, she's not, yet you will ignore all those instances in which she is because they won't fit your thesis.




I pointed out the difference is in the way they were booked. Luke had people bailing him out, Luke had to get trained. It's not just Rey in that either the kid is also using powers untrained. They also made some effort to explain things and the world building. 

And Darth Emo basically explains why Kylo is not s compelling villain. Rey can beat Kylo already there's no real reason to pay money to see Rey overcome him if she wins so what. Maybe the have sine sort of screwy finish. They don't even have that much if a connection unlike Vader and Luke or Anakin and Obi Wan. There's not much emotion there and you need that in a good Star Wars film.


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## Neonchameleon (Feb 15, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> How can she have a "home ground advantage" when she does not fly around her home ground?  You know there is a pretty substansial difference between walking and flying right?.  Luke had a "home ground advantage" and he still got punked.
> 
> It baffles me the amount of mental gymnastics that you have to go through to equate the two characters.  You wring your hands about Luke and a bunch of X-Wings defeating professional Tie Fighters and at the same time give Rey a free pass because of "home ground advantage"?B y that logic the Tie Fighters in RotJ should have easily taken out Lando with their "home ground advantage"




Luke was in Tuskan Raider territory when when he got punked. And he wasn't trying to use his knowledge of the terrain.

But spelling things out for you, you are aware that Rey didn't walk everywhere? She had her own speeder. You also remember Finn told her to stay low because it messed up their tracking. That meant that Rey was flying the Millennium Falcon as if it was a speeder (in other words a type of vessel she flew every day) over terrain she flew over every day in a way she flew every day that the TIE fighters were ill-equipped to handle.

But that's not when the home ground advantage really kicked in. She led them first to and then through the bowels of the wrecked Star Destroyer that she spent every day looting in order to earn money. She knew where all the cover was and where the surprises were - and because of the fact she not just knew them but had been shown to know them (she didn't just walk round there, she speedered, and even climbed and abseiled onscreen) she had a significant advantage in how well she was able to use the terrain. And even with that advantage the Falcon took a number of hits, including locking out the quad laser and forcing her to push her knowledge of the terrain to the limit (rather than Finn going for the other quad laser, but possibly it wasn't repaired and possibly he would have been flung everywhere). So yes, home ground advantage in ways that were explicitly set up by the film.

[video=youtube;8sarFZJl3h0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sarFZJl3h0[/video]

And you'll notice that the Falcon took a number of hits - and how much bigger it is than the TIE fighters. Also TIE fighters might _or might not_ have had a home ground advantage over Lando Calrisian; had they done operations in the center of the Death Star? I doubt it.

It baffles me just how much of what actually happened onscreen gets ignored by people in an effort to find criticisms of the new trilogy.



Zardnaar said:


> And Darth Emo basically explains why Kylo is not s compelling villain. Rey can beat Kylo already there's no real reason to pay money to see Rey overcome him if she wins so what. Maybe the have sine sort of screwy finish. They don't even have that much if a connection unlike Vader and Luke or Anakin and Obi Wan. There's not much emotion there and you need that in a good Star Wars film.




Darth Emo is the second most compelling villain in the entire Star Wars trilogy (and far more compelling than e.g. the Trade Federation, General Grievous, Count Dooku, Darth Maul, the more or less content free Boba Fett, or even Jabba the Hutt who was basically a miniboss). In third is Palpatine - and there's no one else in the same league. And being the second most memorable and compelling villain in a series that includes _Darth Vader_ is quite an achievement, especially when you need to acknowledge Vader but can't make a retread. He won't win - but did you really expect the bad guys to win Return of the Jedi? On the other hand through a mix of malice and power he can potentially cause a vast amount of damage. He's going down but it won't be easy. And with the death of caffeine-free diet Palpatine he's off the leash.

And seriously, connection between Luke and Vader? It took them almost two films to get one with an ass-pull; "Luke, I am your father" wasn't in the original plan at all. But then Star Wars as written by George Lucas is a very bad film and one of the few films that editing can literally be said to have saved.

[video=youtube;GFMyMxMYDNk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMyMxMYDNk[/video]


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## Zardnaar (Feb 15, 2019)

Neonchameleon said:


> Luke was in Tuskan Raider territory when when he got punked. And he wasn't trying to use his knowledge of the terrain.
> 
> But spelling things out for you, you are aware that Rey didn't walk everywhere? She had her own speeder. You also remember Finn told her to stay low because it messed up their tracking. That meant that Rey was flying the Millennium Falcon as if it was a speeder (in other words a type of vessel she flew every day) over terrain she flew over every day in a way she flew every day that the TIE fighters were ill-equipped to handle.
> 
> ...




Darth Emo better than the Emperor lol. The guy who defeated Yoda and was a bad ass in the clone wars cartoon. 

 Jabba and Fett were minor villains.


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## Jester David (Feb 16, 2019)

Getting back to the original question… Star Wars, what would *I* have done differently?

Well, for starters, in Episode VII, I would have done a little worldbuilding. Specifically how large the First Order is, how large the Republic is, the fact the Resistance is really that tiny, etc. 
Also, I probably would have avoided a big spherical planet destroying weapon that can be blown up by a fighter run along a trench. 

The big issue with the franchise so far was _Solo_ being released too soon and amidst heavy competition. 
Were I looking at that movie I would have focused less on it being the Han Solo origin and more of a prequel that happened to include Solo as part of its ensemble. "The Kessel Job" or something, and really emphasise the heist aspect. 

Really, the biggest problem with Star Wars right now isn’t the movies. It’s that China doesn’t give an eff about them. The second biggest box office in the world and Star Wars doesn’t translate. They lack the nostalgia and just don’t care. 

Star Wars needs to focus less on big blockbusters and more smaller mid-budget pictures, where they can make a profit just from the national box office.


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## pukunui (Feb 16, 2019)

Isn’t it obvious? Prior to Episode VII, the Force was asleep. People had to work hard (some harder than others) to tap into it. But now that the Force is awake, people can tap into it without as much training.

Personally I like Rey, but then I have three daughters, so I’m undoubtedly biased.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 16, 2019)

pukunui said:


> Isn’t it obvious? Prior to Episode VII, the Force was asleep. People had to work hard (some harder than others) to tap into it. But now that the Force is awake, people can tap into it without as much training.
> 
> Personally I like Rey, but then I have three daughters, so I’m undoubtedly biased.




Maybe but the scene in TFA seems to imply it's more Rey herself.

 Legends did kind of touch on this but it came a bit out of left field in the movie. Before legends died they we're kind of going with a balance of the force. 

 If it's the force awakens overall wouldn't Kylo get more powerful? The Legends thing makes a bit more sense. Legends did kind of have this problem as well in terms of a protagonist for Luke especially as Luke became a Grandmaster.

 If that's what they are going with they could have done a bit better in execution.


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## Eltab (Feb 16, 2019)

Jester David said:


> This was ALWAYS going to happen. There was no way around it. To have a sequel you need conflict and drama. You need a problem to be solved. An enemy. The galaxy needs to be in danger.That inherently means the heroes had to fail. The Empire need to come back. There's no way around it beyond pulling a brand new unseen enemy out of your ass and forcing it into the world. And that almost never works and everyone would complain "this doesn't feel like Star Wars".



What Force Awakens did was to negate the heroes' efforts in the original trilogy.  

What would have been better would be to put in Leia's mouth a short history lesson: the New Republic was strong, vibrant, chased the Empire to the fringes of the galaxy.  As the next generation grew up, they knew not oppression or tyranny, turned inwards.  They thought peace and prosperity were the natural order instead of things to be cultivated.  -Briefly explain the political manipulations that winkled "the old lady" to the political wilderness.-  The First Order is an Imperial successor splinter state.  The New Republic of today is blind and happy, not paying attention to dangers on the Rim.  A few people still remember and are trying to help, with the resources they can scavenge or persuade.

A short similar speech for Luke and Han.  The core of their efforts is still there, but the direction is in somebody else's hands.

Btw, I would have Lando show up in IX, leading a group of not-very-organized Republic citizens who have volunteer-soldiered for the duration of the emergency (triggered by blowing up the Republic's capital world).


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## pukunui (Feb 16, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Maybe but the scene in TFA seems to imply it's more Rey herself.



Maybe Rey is the real Chosen One, not Anakin. Maybe she's even an embodiment of the Force. The Force made flesh, as it were. 

That said, Finn had an awakening. R2-D2 had an awakening. Maybe that stable boy in TLJ had an awakening too.



> If that's what they are going with they could have done a bit better in execution.



I won't argue with that. There's a lot that could have been done better in execution ... in *all* the Star Wars movies, not just the latest ones.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 16, 2019)

pukunui said:


> Maybe Rey is the real Chosen One, not Anakin. Maybe she's even an embodiment of the Force. The Force made flesh, as it were.
> 
> That said, Finn had an awakening. R2-D2 had an awakening. Maybe that stable boy in TLJ had an awakening too.
> 
> I won't argue with that. There's a lot that could have been done better in execution ... in *all* the Star Wars movies, not just the latest ones.




I have had the thought she is the chosen one. It's a big retcon though borderline hamfisted and won't go down well. Do that you have mostly made the first 6 movies pointless.

 You know the stuff people care about.


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## pukunui (Feb 16, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Do that you have mostly made the first 6 movies pointless.



The galactic status quo as of the start of the new trilogy already more or less did that. 

Plus, the whole Chosen One prophecy is in itself a retcon, since it only really comes up in the prequel era.


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## Ovinomancer (Feb 16, 2019)

pukunui said:


> The galactic status quo as of the start of the new trilogy already more or less did that.
> 
> Plus, the whole Chosen One prophecy is in itself a retcon, since it only really comes up in the prequel era.



Also, the chosen one was to balance the force, not be the strongest.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 16, 2019)

Out of the various force philosophies in canon, legends etc I think I like the balance best. The Sith or whatever will always be recreated through Jedi that fall.

 Legends was hinting at that at the end of Fate of the Jedi which overall was a bit meh but the young Sith girl I liked and how they portrayed her temptation to the light with Ben. 

 Not much is original in the new ones The dark side temptation to the light is interesting.


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## Hussar (Feb 16, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> /snip of a whole bunch of proper nouns that I have absolutely no idea what they refer to.




  Sorry bud, but, you're going to have to drop the analogies.  I loathe Game of Thrones, so, have zero idea what you're talking about.  Never read any of the EU Star Wars stuff other than the Thrown books some twenty or thirty years ago.  Maybe a handful of comic books?

See, I don't judge Star Wars based on a bunch of extraneous stuff that has zero connection to what's on the screen.  I judge it by what I'm watching.  And, so far, the movies have been pretty darn entertaining.  Which, honestly, is all I want.


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## pukunui (Feb 16, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Out of the various force philosophies in canon, legends etc I think I like the balance best.



I’m partial to Lucas’ idea that the dark side is a cancer and that “restoring the balance” means getting rid of it completely. 

Note how in the OT, it’s “the Force” vs the “dark side of the Force”. No one ever says anything about a “light side”. And in RotJ, Luke says he can sense that there’s still “good” in his father.

The “light side” is an EU concept, and sadly it seems Disney has bought into it. In TFA, Leia says she can sense there’s still “light” in her son. And Luke espouses the whole balance between light and dark in TLJ as well.

I prefer “good” over “light”. 



Ovinomancer said:


> Also, the chosen one was to balance the force, not be the strongest.



A prophecy that misread could have been.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 16, 2019)

pukunui said:


> I’m partial to Lucas’ idea that the dark side is a cancer and that “restoring the balance” means getting rid of it completely.
> 
> Note how in the OT, it’s “the Force” vs the “dark side of the Force”. No one ever says anything about a “light side”. And Luke says he can sense that there’s still “good” in his father.
> 
> ...




The force seems to balance itself. That and you can't wipe the dark side out. Might regret that statement in December.

I probably would have preferred a new story in the Star Wars Galaxy but a sequel to rotj plus the 3 legacy characters makes sense financially.

Alot of the good legends material got away from the force or put it into the distant past or in the late EU 140 years after Jedi.

 If they make Rey the chosen one the fans will riot lol. It would explain Rey in the worst way. Lucas was always clear the saga was about Anakin.


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## Ovinomancer (Feb 16, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Out of the various force philosophies in canon, legends etc I think I like the balance best. The Sith or whatever will always be recreated through Jedi that fall.
> 
> Legends was hinting at that at the end of Fate of the Jedi which overall was a bit meh but the young Sith girl I liked and how they portrayed her temptation to the light with Ben.
> 
> Not much is original in the new ones The dark side temptation to the light is interesting.



There are no Sith in Ep 7&8.


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## Ovinomancer (Feb 16, 2019)

What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU.  They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other.  They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.

I think this fandom of the EU is the core of this.  Take Luke.  Luke in TLJ is a pretty easy reach from where he was at the end of RotJ if you only consider the cannon in the movies.  It's only when you add in his superbadassness from the EU that it becomes unbelievable, because THAT Luke had very different choices to make and situations he was in that don't lead to his exile.  But, if you're wedded to the EU, either because you really liked it (eh) or because you enjoyed having encyclopedic SW knowledge and the geek cred that came with it (or both), TLJ Luke is a "slap in the face."  Further, you'll always be looking to the books for the flimsy justifications for why those Mary/Gary Sue/Stus did their impossible BS because it only takes a line in a book to say "trained with badass so and so" for that to somehow be "onscreen" enough to justify their magical powers of badassery.  But Rey?  Rey is better than Luke in the stories -- gets power faster (or so claimed), does more impressive things (or so claimed), and makes better choices (compared to the ones Luke has made between movies).  This can't stand, because Luke, so the engine of dismissal kicks in.  There's fair overlap with the misogynist crowd who would do it because she's a girl, but I think a lot of it comes just because she's replacing a favored mythology with something that's different.

But, if you consider, Rey in TFA is really Luke at the start of ESB, not ANH.  Luke in ANH lives in a small, safe world, on of work, but also comfort.  He isn't hungry, or thirsty, he's well clothed, has a home, a loving family, and wants to run off and join the _Empire_ as a pilot.  He gets sucked into the bigger conflict, has his eyes opened, and, by the end of the movie, is sniping soldiers from across a hanger bay, engaging in high-stakes dogfights, and using the force to make an impossible shot.  Then, he's a leader of the Rebellion (enough so that they'll sortie into dangerous weather conditions to find him) and is using the force to grab lightsabers at range while injured, kill ATATs with a snowspeeder, and killing ATATs singlehandedly with a grappling hook and grenade.  He gets to wander off on his own, free from Rebellion command, and finally faces down one of the most powerful Sith ever and does _okay on his own_ (loses but escapes).

Now, take Rey.  She starts having to clamber through dangerous wrecks in increasingly acrobatic ways to earn enough scrap _to eat_.  She lives in a wrecked ATAT.  She has to fight to keep her things, likely daily.  She good at fighting (she knocks off two enforcers pretty easily and kicks the  out of a stormtrooper (granted, Finn)).  From here, you get backstory that she's been working on the Falcon for years, and she flies it pretty well, but no where near as well as Chewie or Han would.  But, this feat is just too much -- no way a force sensitive pilot can do less than a normal human despite the fact that Anakin was the _only human who could pilot a podracer and at the age of 8._  Or that Luke hit an _impossible shot in an X-wing the first time he ever flew a combat mission_.  Neither with extensive training.  Rey is already a capable human -- she has to fight daily to survive in very harsh conditions where she must adapt and be flexible just to grab some scrap so she can eat, where she has to protect her claim from violence, and where her 'benefactor' has no problem sending thugs to steal from her.  But, no, she's just way too competent compared to the pampered farmboy because she was better than him.  If you compare to Luke from ESB, it's a bit closer.

And, Rey at the end of TFA, does beat Kylo, but Kylo is an apprentice, still -- powerful but raw.  This plot point is mentioned a number of times.  Further, during the fight, he was already badly wounded, had just killed his father (and was very conflicted about it), and still was beating Rey right up until he reminded her to use the Force.  You know, the Force that let Luke make an impossible shot, the Force that let Anakin fly podracers or surf a crashing capital ship to a safe(ish) landing?  And, haven't we seen that untrained Force users can often do outrageous things by accident that then take effort to learn how to do on purpose?  But, nope, Luke didn't beat Vader in ANH, Rey can't beat Kylo when he's hurt and conflicted in TFA.

And, point of fact, the next time they met, Kylo had to save Rey from Snoke (Luke managed to escape Vader on his own), and then help her survive the guards fight, and then they fought to a standstill over the lightsaber.


As an aside, I was rewatching TLJ with my kids a few months ago and noticed something I missed the first few times through.  When Rey is training with the lightsaber at the stone, that scene finishes with her cleanly striking through the stone in one swing (which gets an eye-twitch from Luke).  That's a subtle showing of just how strong she is because where else have you seen a lightsaber cut that easily through anything nearly as large and dense?  They tend to bounce off of things (and it looked like they had been bouncing off that rock for a loooong time already).


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## trappedslider (Feb 16, 2019)

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/star-wars-fans-trying-kill-144800654.html

'Star Wars' Fans Are Trying to Kill Rian Johnson's New Trilogy.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 16, 2019)

Ovinomancer said:


> There are no Sith in Ep 7&8.




THats why I also said or whatever meaning another dark side tradition.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 16, 2019)

Ovinomancer said:


> What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU.  They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other.  They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.
> 
> I think this fandom of the EU is the core of this.  Take Luke.  Luke in TLJ is a pretty easy reach from where he was at the end of RotJ if you only consider the cannon in the movies.  It's only when you add in his superbadassness from the EU that it becomes unbelievable, because THAT Luke had very different choices to make and situations he was in that don't lead to his exile.  But, if you're wedded to the EU, either because you really liked it (eh) or because you enjoyed having encyclopedic SW knowledge and the geek cred that came with it (or both), TLJ Luke is a "slap in the face."  Further, you'll always be looking to the books for the flimsy justifications for why those Mary/Gary Sue/Stus did their impossible BS because it only takes a line in a book to say "trained with badass so and so" for that to somehow be "onscreen" enough to justify their magical powers of badassery.  But Rey?  Rey is better than Luke in the stories -- gets power faster (or so claimed), does more impressive things (or so claimed), and makes better choices (compared to the ones Luke has made between movies).  This can't stand, because Luke, so the engine of dismissal kicks in.  There's fair overlap with the misogynist crowd who would do it because she's a girl, but I think a lot of it comes just because she's replacing a favored mythology with something that's different.
> 
> ...





 EU Luke had some terrible plot devices, kid Anakin was worse than Rey. At least Daisy can express emotions on her face and she seems to be a decent actor. Lucas drew on the old EU its where name Coruscant and Palpatine came from, along with Maul's double bladed lightsaber. Message boards and social media mostly didn't exist 20 years ago when TPM landed, and TFA>TPM any day of the week.
 In the new canon they lifted Thrawn and TIE defenders from the old EU so they're plugging stuff back in.

 I just thought they  could have learnt some things from the opld EU and improved on it. The basic plot of TFA for example is recycled from 25 odd years ago (Imperial faction check, darksider check, superweapon check). They also had some very interesting female Jedi and other characters. For example if they're not going to make Rey part of a famous family like the skywalkers or Kenobi etc they should have giving her a better back ground rather than "you're a nobody" which may or may not get retconned.

 Compare Rey with Jynn Erso from Rogue One. They only had one movie there to do anything with but yeah I cared about her as she had a background I liked they did a great job there. You kind of wanted her to get a happy ending reuniting with her dad, but that was not to be. Because I liked her character her death at the end of the movie meant something.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 16, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/star-wars-fans-trying-kill-144800654.html
> 
> 'Star Wars' Fans Are Trying to Kill Rian Johnson's New Trilogy.




 That is what you get when you actually insult fans on Twitter. If I was famous I would stay off twitter. I might see it but might what for a review or word of mouth.

 He might find the boycott is fully armed and operational when his trilogy rolls out. See what happens after IX I suppose.


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## Shasarak (Feb 16, 2019)

Ovinomancer said:


> What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU.  They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other.  They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.




That is a pretty good imagination that you have there, tell me exactly how loud they would howl if Disney made a good follow on movie to the original series?

I think it is pretty easy for the haters to just lump everything together under a label like EU and then bash it, as if everything in the EU was somekind of literary masterpiece, and then make some far fetched claim that people hate x becuase they changed it.  Of course people are going to look at everything else that is around and compare it.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 16, 2019)

Ovinomancer said:


> What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU.  They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other.  They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.
> 
> I think this fandom of the EU is the core of this.  Take Luke.  Luke in TLJ is a pretty easy reach from where he was at the end of RotJ if you only consider the cannon in the movies.  It's only when you add in his superbadassness from the EU that it becomes unbelievable, because THAT Luke had very different choices to make and situations he was in that don't lead to his exile.  But, if you're wedded to the EU, either because you really liked it (eh) or because you enjoyed having encyclopedic SW knowledge and the geek cred that came with it (or both), TLJ Luke is a "slap in the face."  Further, you'll always be looking to the books for the flimsy justifications for why those Mary/Gary Sue/Stus did their impossible BS because it only takes a line in a book to say "trained with badass so and so" for that to somehow be "onscreen" enough to justify their magical powers of badassery.  But Rey?  Rey is better than Luke in the stories -- gets power faster (or so claimed), does more impressive things (or so claimed), and makes better choices (compared to the ones Luke has made between movies).  This can't stand, because Luke, so the engine of dismissal kicks in.  There's fair overlap with the misogynist crowd who would do it because she's a girl, but I think a lot of it comes just because she's replacing a favored mythology with something that's different.



Luke didn't really have to become more powerful. But I can't see how a Luke that turned Darth Vader back from the Dark Side of the force, a Luke that risked life and limb (literally) to try to save his friends on Bspin or from Jabba the Hut, would turn his back on his best friends, his family in a time of need. It just doesn't feel like the Luke from the movies. 




> But, if you consider, Rey in TFA is really Luke at the start of ESB, not ANH.  Luke in ANH lives in a small, safe world, on of work, but also comfort.  He isn't hungry, or thirsty, he's well clothed, has a home, a loving family, and wants to run off and join the _Empire_ as a pilot.  He gets sucked into the bigger conflict, has his eyes opened, and, by the end of the movie, is sniping soldiers from across a hanger bay, engaging in high-stakes dogfights, and using the force to make an impossible shot.  Then, he's a leader of the Rebellion (enough so that they'll sortie into dangerous weather conditions to find him) and is using the force to grab lightsabers at range while injured, kill ATATs with a snowspeeder, and killing ATATs singlehandedly with a grappling hook and grenade.  He gets to wander off on his own, free from Rebellion command, and finally faces down one of the most powerful Sith ever and does _okay on his own_ (loses but escapes).
> 
> Now, take Rey.  She starts having to clamber through dangerous wrecks in increasingly acrobatic ways to earn enough scrap _to eat_.  She lives in a wrecked ATAT.  She has to fight to keep her things, likely daily.  She good at fighting (she knocks off two enforcers pretty easily and kicks the  out of a stormtrooper (granted, Finn)).  From here, you get backstory that she's been working on the Falcon for years, and she flies it pretty well, but no where near as well as Chewie or Han would.  But, this feat is just too much -- no way a force sensitive pilot can do less than a normal human despite the fact that Anakin was the _only human who could pilot a podracer and at the age of 8._  Or that Luke hit an _impossible shot in an X-wing the first time he ever flew a combat mission_.  Neither with extensive training.  Rey is already a capable human -- she has to fight daily to survive in very harsh conditions where she must adapt and be flexible just to grab some scrap so she can eat, where she has to protect her claim from violence, and where her 'benefactor' has no problem sending thugs to steal from her.  But, no, she's just way too competent compared to the pampered farmboy because she was better than him.  If you compare to Luke from ESB, it's a bit closer.
> 
> ...




I  notice that you don't respond to one observation by me: It doesn't really matter that you can explain the winning, regardless of whether you can bring good arguments or not. The thing is - there is no sense of struggle. And it might actually be justified in TFA, since Luke isn't struggling all that much in ANH either, except emotional (death of his uncle and aunt, death of Obi-Wan, which mirrors Rey's struggle to leave her homeworld behind, and also Finn's struggle to not just run away from the First Order, but run towards the Resistance and Rey). But he is in definitely struggling in ESB, on Hoth in the cold, on Dagobah in his training, and finally when confronting Vader. He gets to come out alive, but he had to work for it.
 But Rey doesn't seem to struggle - she learns Jedi stuff, she helps Kylo beat the First Order's lead man, and gets everyone to safety. (Where as Luke's presence on Bespin wasn't actually important even, he mostly got himself in trouble). The only thing she is hit with is basically the claim that her parents are nobodies - which most people's parents probably are, and most people still would want to know why their parents would leave them. Even a nobody's answer is interesting here for the child left behind.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 16, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> That is a pretty good imagination that you have there, tell me exactly how loud they would howl if Disney made a good follow on movie to the original series?
> 
> I think it is pretty easy for the haters to just lump everything together under a label like EU and then bash it, as if everything in the EU was somekind of literary masterpiece, and then make some far fetched claim that people hate x becuase they changed it.  Of course people are going to look at everything else that is around and compare it.




Never claimed the EU was great. I did say. They could have learnt from it and cherry picked the good parts.
 EU had plenty of interesting female force users for example. Rey is kinda boring because of her lack of character development/struggle. Her and Kylo have basically made 0 progression as characters since the start of TFA. There's no emotion there because the new character s barely know each other and Rey didn't have Beru and Lars to get mowed down. 

 The pacing is also off along with big plot holes. Finn for example can't pilot in TFA that's what Poe is for no problem in TLJ though despite it being hours or days after TFA. There's a 3 year gap between ESB and ANH and even if it's not clear in the movies how much time had passed you know some time had passed as the rebels have had time to build a new base.

 It's just nonsensical stuff like this that TLJ screwed up with along with fairly minimal character development


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## Shasarak (Feb 16, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Never claimed the EU was great.




Never claimed that you did.



> I did say. They could have learnt from it and cherry picked the good parts.
> EU had plenty of interesting female force users for example. Rey is kinda boring because of her lack of character development/struggle. Her and Kylo have basically made 0 progression as characters since the start of TFA. There's no emotion there because the new character s barely know each other and Rey didn't have Beru and Lars to get mowed down.




Agreed.  Maybe it is the kinda thing that you need to read the books to get the real backstory for, like how the Cylon woman is supposed to have a great back story.



> The pacing is also off along with big plot holes. Finn for example can't pilot in TFA that's what Poe is for no problem in TLJ though despite it being hours or days after TFA. There's a 3 year gap between ESB and ANH and even if it's not clear in the movies how much time had passed you know some time had passed as the rebels have had time to build a new base.
> 
> It's just nonsensical stuff like this that TLJ screwed up with along with fairly minimal character development




The space chase did seem to be kinda strange.  Oops forgot to fill up on Space Petrol, doh.


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## Hussar (Feb 17, 2019)

A question.

What's with all the Phasma love?  Ok, shiny armor storm trooper.  Cool.  Neat.  Who cares?  How can this character be "wasted"?  Minor, bit character injected for a bit of humor.  

Pretty much the same as Boba Fett.  

I suppose I might just be answering my own question.  

And one other thing.  People are actually bitching about the scene in TFA when Rey pilots the Falcon through the wreck of a Star Destroyer?  SERIOUSLY?  That's a freaking GORGEOUS scene.  One of the most memorable scenes in any Star Wars movies.  

You'd want to eject that scene because it makes the female lead look too good?  

Just like D&D, I'm really, REALLY glad Star Wars is not in the hands of fans.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussar said:


> A question.
> 
> What's with all the Phasma love?  Ok, shiny armor storm trooper.  Cool.  Neat.  Who cares?  How can this character be "wasted"?  Minor, bit character injected for a bit of humor.
> 
> ...




Lots of things look good Rey and Kylos lightsaber duel. It's not because she us a good pilot but she's good at everything with very little to no explanation in a universe where it's been established in canon that you have to train for force powers. Luke got pwned by Tuskans raiders. He wasn't good at melee, wasn't good with the force, and got his butt handed to him alot.

 I did say Kylo and Rey both had great introductions though. 
 Throw in the plot holes poor character development, characters like Finn regressing, Luke's basic person ality doing a 180 and the interesting seeds TFA planted and thrown away. TFA was enjoyable if a bit reptitive but one can see way they did it.

 As for Phasma the actor helps and you answered your own question. If you wanted a positive example of a great female character she had potential. I like Hux as a villain to but they wrote them like chumps.  Basically you don't end up caring about any of the villains or the protagonists. Even Fett had his moment of glory.


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## MGibster (Feb 17, 2019)

I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s.  Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles.  There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character.  We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.  

There are certainly legitimate reasons to dislike TFA and TLJ.  I've got some problems especially with TLJ.  But Rey is a Mary Sue is a weird argument to make.  We're talking about a lady who grew up with a hardscrabble existence and no doubt made extensive use of her staff to fight on her own behalf.  Within the context of a high fantasy setting like Star Wars I've got no problem with her being an awesome heroin.  Hell, in TFA it took her and Finn both to beat Ren and that was _after_ he had been shot by Chewbacca.


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## cmad1977 (Feb 17, 2019)

MGibster said:


> I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s.  Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles.  There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character.  We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.
> 
> There are certainly legitimate reasons to dislike TFA and TLJ.  I've got some problems especially with TLJ.  But Rey is a Mary Sue is a weird argument to make.  We're talking about a lady who grew up with a hardscrabble existence and no doubt made extensive use of her staff to fight on her own behalf.  Within the context of a high fantasy setting like Star Wars I've got no problem with her being an awesome heroin.  Hell, in TFA it took her and Finn both to beat Ren and that was _after_ he had been shot by Chewbacca.




All of this makes sense and all but you have to remember the one real issue in all of this. 

She’s a girl. A GIRL!!


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## Shasarak (Feb 17, 2019)

MGibster said:


> I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s.  Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles.  There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character.  We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.




I loved Jones in James Bond!


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## Zardnaar (Feb 17, 2019)

MGibster said:


> I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s.  Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles.  There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character.  We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.
> 
> There are certainly legitimate reasons to dislike TFA and TLJ.  I've got some problems especially with TLJ.  But Rey is a Mary Sue is a weird argument to make.  We're talking about a lady who grew up with a hardscrabble existence and no doubt made extensive use of her staff to fight on her own behalf.  Within the context of a high fantasy setting like Star Wars I've got no problem with her being an awesome heroin.  Hell, in TFA it took her and Finn both to beat Ren and that was _after_ he had been shot by Chewbacca.




 Social media didn't exist back then and certain segments online are cancer. 

 Those women are also organically popular and they are written different than Rey. Sarah Connor and Ripley both took a beating for example. They were also in original franchises that had no in universe expectations of how things are (they didn't have 6 movies before them establishing tropes). They also didn't have Kathleen Kennedy waltz around with shirts on them saying the force is female in a franchise where the majority of the fans are male and where the force is genderless. They also had interesting male characters people could relate to. 

 Consider things like Wonder Women, Black Panther, or the Orville. People seem to like those shows, they're diverse and they have power and interesting characters. For new stuff it can go either way.

 Also consider if they remade Thelma and Louise but called it Ted and Bob and recast the two females as males and then made the female characters idiots (Hux, Poe, Kylo). Or they made a new Terminator movie and wrote Sarah Connor (played by Linda Hamilton) as a pacifist who was pro AI or something. Her character is almost a 180 over what people would expect. Sure characters can change but you probably need to see that on screen and have it happen naturally so to speak. Jaimie Lannister for example.

 That is really the problem, taking older franchises that people like and then drastically changing them or perceived to be pushing a social agenda. If that is fair or not IDK but that is the way things are. Generally you go watch a movie for fun unless its something serious like Schindlers List. Even then social issues can still be enjoyable and make you think (see The Orville its great) but however you do it it still needs to be fun and clever. 

 Game of Thrones is also doing it right (GRR Martin is a feminist), it has a lot of great female characters heroes and villains, one of them is probably the most popular (Arya). Moana is another good example that movie was stupidly popular here in general and the Polynesians loved it. Orange  the New Black also comes to mind. These shows/movies have great writing. A slight counter example might be Sense 8 which had a great season 1 but they messed up season 2 a bit IMHO. 

 Not all characters need a background or explanation. If someone is a Jedi, Sith, marine, soldier etc it kind of assumed they're a badass. Having them grow into it though is also an old trope (Sarah Connor T1 vs T2, Leia spoiled princess to rebel soldier). Sometimes movie makers mess up and the character you think would work out another one is more popular. Harley Quinn is sticking around (Robbie Margot), Jared Leto's joker is going bye bye. I don't think they deliberately aimed for that to happen and that is in a genre with a "toxic fanbase" but the female character is more popular probably because the male one was crap and Robbie was great. 

 Sure the 100% hard core extremists the ones harassing Rose's actor online you can't really save them. I suspect a few of them are young (under 30 or 20), and social media lets any idiot with an opinion express it, people might even vote for him. There is also other things going on like the cost of movies getting to the point a new movie is a massive risk financially and there is not a lot of 80's franchises with female leads. I would have had a female lad myself I would have fleshed out her back ground or just made her a Jedi or other force using tradition. Then if the force awakens she can still be the receptacle but she would already be a bad ass or she gets unleashed after training a bit with Luke. Even a simple passage of time thing could be used in a different TLJ there is a lot of things that could have been done.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 17, 2019)

> Leia spoiled princess to rebel soldier



On screen, she was never a spoiled princess. She was a confident Rebel and also a Princess from the moment we see her - it's probably what Han and Luke (definitely Han) think she is, but her actions pretty much show her as resourceful. However, she still has some things to struggle with - like losing her entire homeworld in front of her eyes to a power demonstration, despite her trying her best possible in the situation to trick Tarkin into thinking he got what he wanted and spare her world.


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## MGibster (Feb 17, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Those women are also organically popular and they are written different than Rey. Sarah Connor and Ripley both took a beating for example. They were also in original franchises that had no in universe expectations of how things are (they didn't have 6 movies before them establishing tropes).




I've been a huge fan of Star Wars for almost my entire life and I cannot think of any single way Rey's character runs against the established grain of the universe as established by the movies.  



> They also didn't have Kathleen Kennedy waltz around with shirts on them saying the force is female in a franchise where the majority of the fans are male and where the force is genderless. They also had interesting male characters people could relate to.




I don't really keep up with behind-the-scenes antics of any of the media I consume.  For the most part I just care about the final product.  



> Also consider if they remade Thelma and Louise but called it Ted and Bob and recast the two females as males and then made the female characters idiots (Hux, Poe, Kylo).




Ren doesn't seem particularly incompetent to me.  By the end of the second movie he's maneuvered himself into the supreme leader's position.  



> Or they made a new Terminator movie and wrote Sarah Connor (played by Linda Hamilton) as a pacifist who was pro AI or something. Her character is almost a 180 over what people would expect.




Rey is a new character not an old character written in a different way.  Nor is she a character that doesn't fit into the Star Wars milieu.  Nothing about Rey is what I wouldn't expect in a Star Wars movie.  If she wasn't a woman I don't think anyone would even be having this conversation.  For example, nobody seems upset that Fin knew how to fight with a lightsaber.


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## Hussar (Feb 17, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> /snip
> 
> As for Phasma the actor helps and you answered your own question. If you wanted a positive example of a great female character she had potential. I like Hux as a villain to but they wrote them like chumps.  Basically you don't end up caring about any of the villains or the protagonists. Even Fett had his moment of glory.




Who's the actor?  

What was Fett's moment of glory?  "He's no good to me dead?"  or when he goes all Three Stooges and gets killed by a blind Han Solo?


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## Zardnaar (Feb 17, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> On screen, she was never a spoiled princess. She was a confident Rebel and also a Princess from the moment we see her - it's probably what Han and Luke (definitely Han) think she is, but her actions pretty much show her as resourceful. However, she still has some things to struggle with - like losing her entire homeworld in front of her eyes to a power demonstration, despite her trying her best possible in the situation to trick Tarkin into thinking he got what he wanted and spare her world.




The spoiled princess thing was how she talked to the characters on the Death Star in ANH. Spoiled might not be thw right way but she was speaking down to the heroes and came across as a princess- which was what she was.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 17, 2019)

MGibster said:


> I've been a huge fan of Star Wars for almost my entire life and I cannot think of any single way Rey's character runs against the established grain of the universe as established by the movies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It wasn't Rey who did a 180 it was Lukes portrayal in TLJ.

 Finn defeated a stormtrooper, they're mooks. He swing the lightsaber like a club and Kylo pwned him hard. His character also does a 180 i TLJ and goes back to where he was at the start of TFA. And the plot hole of him piloting in TLJ and in TFA he needed Poe to pilot. 

 In TFA, Rey is untrained and she uses mind trick and seems quite good with the lightsaber. Untrained. You know that whole plot point over 2 movies in ANH and ESB along with the padawans we saw in the prequels. Or Obi Wans lines about taking it on himself to train Anakin. You want to be a Jedi you get trained its kind of a big thing in the 1st 6 movies.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Who's the actor?
> 
> What was Fett's moment of glory?  "He's no good to me dead?"  or when he goes all Three Stooges and gets killed by a blind Han Solo?




Phasma's actor was Gwendoline Christie, she plays Brienne of Tarth in Game of Thrones. Briene is insanely popular in that show along with Arya and Tyrion. Shes a Knight and a badass, then gets used like a chump in TLJ.

 Vader puts Fett over as a badass in ESB and he did alright in ESB overall. 

 His death in Jedi was stupid, but the character was popular enough they gave him a backstory in the prequels.


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## Hussar (Feb 17, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Phasma's actor was Gwendoline Christie, she plays Brienne of Tarth in Game of Thrones. Briene is insanely popular in that show along with Arya and Tyrion. Shes a Knight and a badass, then gets used like a chump in TLJ.
> 
> Vader puts Fett over as a badass in ESB and he did alright in ESB overall.
> 
> His death in Jedi was stupid, but the character was popular enough they gave him a backstory in the prequels.




Ahh.  I think I mentioned earlier that I have no interest in Game of Thrones.  

So, why aren't people pissed off that Daniel Craig only got one line?  Insanely good actor completely wasted.  Seems that if wasting talent was an issue, then that should be one too.  Phasma is a bit character.  Star Wars is full of bit characters.

The problem is, over the years, people have built entire storylines out of these throw away characters and suddenly, the rest of us are supposed to care about the castles in the air that "fans" have created.  

Like I said earlier, I judge the movies on their own merits, not based on my expectations or based on what I think the movies "should have been".  Pretty much every criteria you've talked about [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] makes me shrug and I quite honestly don't care.  

Rey's a Mary Sue?  In Star Wars?  The hell you say.  When a farm boy with zero training, gets, what, a month, two months of training and suddenly he can duel with someone who has been mastering sword fighting for decades.  Yeah, that's totally believable.  But, a character who has been fighting for survival her whole life, demonstrably with hand to hand weapons, barely survives a fight with a gravely wounded young swordsman and she's a Mary Sue.

Uh huh.  Yeah, I'm going to go back to enjoying the movies for what they are.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Ahh.  I think I mentioned earlier that I have no interest in Game of Thrones.
> 
> So, why aren't people pissed off that Daniel Craig only got one line?  Insanely good actor completely wasted.  Seems that if wasting talent was an issue, then that should be one too.  Phasma is a bit character.  Star Wars is full of bit characters.
> 
> ...




3 or 4 year gap with Luke. And you seen see the differences between Luke and Rey onscreen. Rey's good at everything and she is way ahead of Luke with 0 training. Have a look at ESB for example and Luke struggling to pull his lightsaber out of the ice or Levitate rocks. Rey snaps a lightsaber and is doing Yoda levels of levitation at the end of TLJ and he is a Jedi Master.

 That is the difference. Rey is ahead of Luke right in TFA, his used very few force powers even as late as RoTJ where he uses mind trick. Rey uses that in TFA just because.

 Movie 1 vs movie 3. 

 Daniel Craig was a cameo, IIRC he was a stormtrooper and it was an easter egg. The Game of Thrones comparison was more to point out you can make an interesting powerful female character without a heap of plot holes or booking her like superman and essentially throwing away established tropes from the 1st 6 movies+ The Clone Wars.


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## Shasarak (Feb 18, 2019)

MGibster said:


> For example, nobody seems upset that Fin knew how to fight with a lightsaber.




Well he is an Imperial New Order Janitor so of course he knows how to use a Light Saber as well as all other broom-class weapons.


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## billd91 (Feb 18, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> The spoiled princess thing was how she talked to the characters on the Death Star in ANH. Spoiled might not be thw right way but she was speaking down to the heroes and came across as a princess- which was what she was.




If it was a man, he’d be decisive and commanding, not spoiled.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 18, 2019)

Shasarak said:


> Well he is an Imperial New Order Janitor so of course he knows how to use a Light Saber as well as all other broom-class weapons.




 Well he wasn't deflecting blast bolts and used it like a light club.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 18, 2019)

billd91 said:


> If it was a man, he’d be decisive and commanding, not spoiled.




A hole maybe. She was patroising iirc. Luke was kinda annoying in ANH. Han stole the show. Leia and Luke were better in ESB. Daisy is better at expressing emotions than Carrie, Mark and Hayden at least early on. Rey and Kylo looked like we're trying to kill each other I thought it was better than the dance they did in TLJ.


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## billd91 (Feb 18, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> 3 or 4 year gap with Luke. And you seen see the differences between Luke and Rey onscreen. Rey's good at everything and she is way ahead of Luke with 0 training. Have a look at ESB for example and Luke struggling to pull his lightsaber out of the ice or Levitate rocks. Rey snaps a lightsaber and is doing Yoda levels of levitation at the end of TLJ and he is a Jedi Master.
> 
> That is the difference. Rey is ahead of Luke right in TFA, his used very few force powers even as late as RoTJ where he uses mind trick. Rey uses that in TFA just because.
> 
> ...




There is so much BS in all of this. I just watched TFA again and Rey is not good at everything. She’s action-movie competent, like every other protagonist in an action movie and not a bit more than Luke and a hell of a lot less than Anakin in Phantom Menace.
She gets clobbered by Kylo Ren twice and fights him to a draw AFTER he’s already been badly wounded by Chewie and further wounded by Finn. 
Tropes are not thrown away, even in TLJ. They’re *subverted* and that means they’re definitely addressed.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 18, 2019)

billd91 said:


> There is so much BS in all of this. I just watched TFA again and Rey is not good at everything. She’s action-movie competent, like every other protagonist in an action movie and not a bit more than Luke and a hell of a lot less than Anakin in Phantom Menace.
> She gets clobbered by Kylo Ren twice and fights him to a draw AFTER he’s already been badly wounded by Chewie and further wounded by Finn.
> Tropes are not thrown away, even in TLJ. They’re *subverted* and that means they’re definitely addressed.




Subverted badly. TFA is overall a good movie I rewartched it recently as well.

 It did kind of make TLJ that much worse though. JJ Abrams put so many good plot hooks to follow up on and they basically threw them away. There's not a lot to build on now. Kylo has gone back and forth to often and loses, Finn went backwards, Poe's an a hole, and it's like Rian didn't even watch TFA.

 Will people care enough now the 3 legacy characters are dead Well Carrie IRL). They can force ghost in Luke and use recycled TFA footage for Carrie.

 I'll put it another way. In 20 years time will these $2 and $3 clear out action figures gonna be worth much like Fett in the late 90's. How much is a 20 year old Jar Jar figure worth these days.

 My main point is Rey, Phasma and Kylo could all have been really great characters comparable to the originals. Phasma got used as comic relief in TFA, Kylo eh Sith wannabe he can polish Vader's boots and there's not a lot of emotion to tie back to Rey despite Daisy being very good at expressing it. There's no real connection bbetween her and Kylo or the OT.


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## billd91 (Feb 18, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Subverted badly. TFA is overall a good movie I rewartched it recently as well.
> 
> It did kind of make TLJ that much worse though. JJ Abrams put so many good plot hooks to follow up on and they basically threw them away. There's not a lot to build on now. Kylo has gone back and forth to often and loses, Finn went backwards, Poe's an a hole, and it's like Rian didn't even watch TFA.




So... it’s like ESB. Luke is missing a hand, Han is frozen, and the Republic is on the run. Honestly, the double-standard.


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## Shasarak (Feb 18, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Well he wasn't deflecting blast bolts and used it like a light club.




Yeah, not much call for deflecting blaster bolts when you are cleaning out the trash compactors.  You would not believe the stuff that can get stuck in there!


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## Zardnaar (Feb 18, 2019)

billd91 said:


> So... it’s like ESB. Luke is missing a hand, Han is frozen, and the Republic is on the run. Honestly, the double-standard.




You had Vader still being an effective villain the I am your father reveal and the rebels had a fleet. And the Emperor was also revealed and the Empire had the SSD. And Fett wasn't comic relief. Compelling villains work.

 Rey you're a nobody, entire resistance on the falcon and a weak villain. Sure they can probably pull a fleet out of their butt or have Rey force throw a Star Destroyer but there the closing scene of Empire was great.


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## Legatus Legionis (Feb 18, 2019)

.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 18, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Personally, why can't we give Episode VIII the same treatment as what befell The Star Wars Holiday Special (1978)?
> 
> Then JJ (and we the fans) can get the proper sequel to TFA.




 It wasn't that bad.

 I'll put it another way. I would bet dollars to donuts that in 10 or 20 years time no one is going to care about these characters while we will still be able to buy a worlds best dad Vader T-shirt. They will all be about a relevant as a Hayden Christian Anakin portrayal. And it could have been different. Even if you don't agree with my opinion about TLJ, does anyone here think I am wrong about this?


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## billd91 (Feb 18, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Personally, why can't we give Episode VIII the same treatment as what befell The Star Wars Holiday Special (1978)?
> 
> Then JJ (and we the fans) can get the proper sequel to TFA.




You got a proper sequel. That you didn’t like it doesn’t make it an improper sequel.


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## GreyLord (Feb 18, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Subverted badly. TFA is overall a good movie I rewartched it recently as well.
> 
> It did kind of make TLJ that much worse though. JJ Abrams put so many good plot hooks to follow up on and they basically threw them away. There's not a lot to build on now. Kylo has gone back and forth to often and loses, Finn went backwards, Poe's an a hole, and it's like Rian didn't even watch TFA.
> 
> ...




I do not know how much the action figures will be worth in a few decades.

I have complimentary figures of most, and I'm keeping the Rey and Rose and Jyn figures as the highest bets considering some of the lesser bought figures of the early Star Wars figure days went up pretty nicely in value.  A Princess Leia still in packaging and in mint can get several hundred dollars.

Rey or Rose may not be worth that much seeing how the toy lines are doing (and drives my perception that the overall attitude is basically not hate, nor love, but MEH from the general audiences today) but I wouldn't be surprised for them to get over 60-70 for a figure (though, unironically I'll probably be DEAD by that time) in 30-40 years.  

I'd imagine that there will be some nostalgia (always is, even for movies that completely stink, or for figures that no one really thought would be worth squat, but several decades later are worth something today).

That doesn't help the Toy Companies bottom line today...but it's crazy how many toys become collectibles 30 years later.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 18, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> I do not know how much the action figures will be worth in a few decades.
> 
> I have complimentary figures of most, and I'm keeping the Rey and Rose and Jyn figures as the highest bets considering some of the lesser bought figures of the early Star Wars figure days went up pretty nicely in value.  A Princess Leia still in packaging and in mint can get several hundred dollars.
> 
> ...




Maybe got an old school Fett floating around anywhere?

 Phasma, Rey and Kylo had potential. Rey has no character flaws and is a paragon of virtue and she seems to be immune to dark side temptation, even Luke was brash and impulsive and lost his temper. Phasma comic relief and Kylo Darth Crybaby (lite). Can't recall much like htis in the new trilogy.


[video=youtube;07DiRUvD2Hk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07DiRUvD2Hk[/video]
World building.


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## Jester David (Mar 9, 2019)

[video=youtube_share;w1VeOlIDD9o]https://youtu.be/w1VeOlIDD9o[/video]


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