# Review of Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue by Wizards of the Coast



## Neuroglyph (Dec 9, 2012)

It was only one day after returning from the “best four days of gaming” at *GenCon 2012* - where I had an absolutely AMAZING time, by the way – there was a knock at my door, and I was greeted by a guy from UPS with a package from Wizards of the Coast.  Now I had debated all weekend whether to buy a copy of the new Menzoberranzan setting which was on sale in the WotC booth, but on the last day, I was told by the PR folks that I could expect a copy in the mail very soon.  Well I have to hand it to the WotC PR staff – when they say soon, they really mean SOON!

 As fans of older D&D editions might well remember, *TSR* released a boxed set of *Menzoberranzan* in 1992, offering three booklets and maps revealing the “_Famed City of the Drow_”.  Ed Greenwood, R.A. Salvatore, and Douglas Niles took on the project for 2nd Edition Dungeons & Dragons, and it was released with a whopping 210 pages and included an adventure module.

The current release is a much by Brian R. James and Eric Menge is hardcover format, and does a re-treatment of the setting in a very different style.  *Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue* has been design to be edition-neutral, offering an in-depth look into the infamous Underdark metropolis without any “crunch” content whatsoever!  

_So how does this new version of *Menzoberranzan* stack up against its predecessor?_

*Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue*


*Design*:  Brian R. James and Eric Menge
*Development:* Jeremy Crawford, Tanis O’ Connor, Chris Sims
*Cover Illustrators*: Jesper Ejsing
*Interior Illustrators*: Eric Belisle, Melivoj Ćeran, Jesper Ejsing, Wayne England, Jason A. Engle, Brian Hagan, Ralph Horsley, Tyler Jacobson, Chris Malidore, David Martin, Lee Moyer, Jim Nelson, William O’Connor, Chris Seaman, Mike Schley, Craig J. Spearing, Matias Tapia, Francis Tsai, Ben Wooten
*Publisher*: Wizards of the Coast
*Year*: 2012
*Media*: Hardbound (130 pages) + Map
*Retail Price*: $29.95 ($24.88 from [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Menzoberranzan-City-Intrigue-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786960361?&linkCode=waf&tag=neurogames-20"]*Amazon.com*[/ame])
 *Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue* is a new supplement for the *Forgotten Realms Campaign* setting featuring the Underdark city made famous by R.A Salvatore’s _Drizzt_ novels.  The setting supplement is designed to be rule-system-neutral, and provides information on running the city in any D&D edition and in almost any fantasy role-playing game system.  *Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue* provides information about the city and surrounding environs of the Underdark, as well as its drow inhabitants and rulers, and their way of life.  Further, the setting supplement provides for creating and running a campaign as drow, with adventure hooks, campaign ideas, and plots, plus detailed background and faction information to allow for a completely drow-centric experience.

*Production Quality*
Overall, the production quality of *Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue* is stunning.  The layout of the pages provides the content in a logical format, and the writing is excellent and a pleasure to read.  The book contains uses shaded sidebars to highlight important additional information, particularly information which players might need to create and develop drow characters.

The illustrations in the *Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue* range from very good to downright breath-taking, and all the artwork appears new for this book’s release.  Obviously given the evil nature of the drow, the images in the supplement are quite gothic and downright creepy, but it does a great job to enhance the reading experience.  

The map of the city is beautifully rendered with great details, and is actually double-sided.  One side is done as a full color version, with names and reference codes attached to specific locations to be used with the book.  The other side is printed as sepia ink on parchment with only place names on the map and no reference codes – presumably, this is the map that players get to see as they scheme and adventure their way around the city.


*Welcome to the City of Intrigue*

*Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue* is divided up into six chapters, three of which specifically deal with a different aspect of the city of the drow – societal, political, and geographical. The other chapters offer insight on creating a drow-centric campaign, creating drow characters, and on dealing with the Underdark wilderness beyond the city’s environs – the dangerous Northdark of the Forgotten Realms.

The introduction and first chapter of *Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue* delve right into creating a campaign in the city, and what it means to run a Menzoberranzan campaign.  The authors make no illusions about it: this book is primarily designed to be used to create a campaign in which drow characters are the “heroes”, and the campaign adventure goals will likely be evil in nature.  From there, the authors reveal a wealth of ideas for designing a campaign.  They touch on campaign flavor such as ways to introduce political intrigue and schemes, as well as campaigns of raids against the surface, wars among drow, or against creatures in the Underdark.  Dungeon Masters are also given a fairly extensive history of the city, allowing them to place their campaign in eras ranging from the Founding through the Time of Troubles and even into the era of the D&D 4E Spellplague.  The content is presented “edition-agnostic” here, as in the rest of the book, offering a chance to run not only a wide variety of campaign styles but also game systems.  Literally, one could create a dozen different campaigns from ideas in Chapter 1, and each one would have a unique and different flavor than all the others.

Chapter 2 is entitled _The Way of Lolth_, takes a look at the goddess and the drow from a range of sociological and religious angles.  Obviously the Spider-Queen is discussed here in some detail, as are other gods worshipped by the drow, such as Eilistraee and Ghaunadaur.  There’s a pretty decent overview of drow psychology and social structure as well, along with information about their caste system and how the matriarchy works.  The authors include some interesting aspects of culture like how commerce functions, what drow do for fun and revelry, festivals in the city, and even a collection of drow proverbs and sayings.  Good material here for both DMs and players wanting to embrace the inner workings of drow society in Menzoberranzan.

As those familiar with the Drizzt novels would expect, there is a sizable section of the book devoted to the various Houses of the drow in the city.  In Chapter 3, _Drow Factions_, each of the major and minor noble Houses of the drow are discussed in some detail, as well as other groups which hold power in Menzoberranzan - the infamous academies of the Tier Breche, the roguish mercenaries of Bregan D’aerthe, and the assassins of Jaezred Chaulssin.  Each House and faction is given a unique entry in the book, and a wide range of details, including their ranking, goals, leadership, glyph, religious leanings, and other important facts.  Much of this is quite similar to the 1992 boxed set House summaries, and in fact some of the stats, like the Membership stats and numbers of soldiers and slaves were lifted directly from the previous work.  

However, the authors do offer some quite new and different stats/characteristics from the previous work by including the Houses’ “personality” traits and their Power rating - this latter stat is determined from a Houses’ Might Rating, it Favor Rating, and its Wealth Rating.  This gives a nice abstract idea about how powerful a House is, and how it would fare against another House in a power-play or intrigue.  There are even rules for creating a new noble House to add to the city, presumably by having a minor or non-noble House rise to power – and there’s another campaign hook one could use.

I particularly enjoyed how each of the Houses and factions in this section include a couple of character backgrounds in a sidebar – or in some cases, a half-page bar – to assist in bringing depth to a drow player character or NPC.  Again, like the rest of *Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue*, the information is presented as system/edition neutral, with a lot of background information to use in character development, some general characteristics, and sometimes a pre-requisite - usually drow/male or drow/female as their roles in society are rarely the same.  So a player could decide to be an Elite Guard of House Baenre, a Dread Fang of House Melarn, or a House Wizard trained within the Sorcere.  Illustrations in this chapter show major NPCs in the House or faction, presumably to give players a good idea what their enemies or allies look like.

Chapter 4 delves deeply into the _City of Spiders_, and covers all the major areas on the map in a gazetteer-style format.  The chapter opens with a discussion of major geographical areas, like the great rock column Narbondel or the Overways and Underways which run through the cavern above and below the city.  In addition, there is a section on life in the city, including patrols and various types of creatures that might visit Menzoberranzan.  

Most of the rest of the chapter concentrates on the Districts in the city, and the places of business there.  Specific locations within Menzoberranzan use of an iconography similar to that of the famed Volo’s guides, with stacks of coins representing expense, stars for quality, and skulls for threatening areas.  The chapter closes with a couple pages about major locations in the Dark Dominion – the patrolled wilderness of the Underdark a few miles around the outside of Menzoberranzan.

Chapter 5 takes the reader outside Menzoberranzan and beyond the Dark Dominion into _The Northdark_ – the untamed wilds of the Underdark beneath Neverwinter and the North.  The authors discuss major regions of this dangerous area, and include information on lairs, creatures found there, and other important facts.  Some areas are treated with greater detail, and include histories to allow them to be synched up with a Menzoberranzan campaign of a particular era.  And there are plenty of sidebars with adventure hooks and ideas, making the whole Northdark a wilderness setting, with Menzoberranzan, ironically, as the “point of light” in which to seek haven!

*Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue* concludes with a final chapter on what it is to _Be a Drow_. The chapter discusses what it is to be evil characters in an evil setting, and throws in a rather shameless plug about obtaining a Drow Treachery deck which is like the D&D Fortune Cards – except that using these cards in a game will also directly affect the “Worth” score.  The authors have created a rather nifty Drow Station system in which the character’s background and role-playing actions taken during the course of play affect the Worth Score of a drow, as compared to their Houses’ Power Rating.  

Some circumstances and actions raise worth, while others lower it.  If it drops too low, your character could end up as the next sacrifice to Lolth, while those characters with the high Worth Scores can actually gain control of a House!  In fact, one sidebar actually delineates the life of Drizzt and demonstrates how low his Worth Score sunk over the course of his career.  Chapter 6 ends with a nice section on role-playing tips for drow characters.

The supplement includes a final two-page Appendix with a Map Key to all major locations in the city, along with their reference codes.

*Overall Score*: 4.25 *out of* 5.0

*Conclusions*

There is a lot of reasons to love *Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue*, and it offers a great deal of potential to Dungeon Masters for running a very unique style of evil campaign in any edition of D&D, and a wide variety of other fantasy role-playing games as well.  And not only does the book present DMs with ideas, but also offers players a pack of character creation options which are all about their story, and not concerned with their mechanics or gear.  And honestly, the book is a great read for anyone who likes drow or Salvatore’s Drizzt novels.

Overall, I also like that this supplement is edition neutral as well, meaning that any D&D DM can use it in their campaign.  But I have to admit to a bit of chagrin about this as well, given that there is no 4E specific information – it simply underscores the end of my personal favorite edition all the more.  I can only hope that WotC considers releasing some 4E specific content like themes, backgrounds, magic items, and monsters as part of DDI, so that fans of the current edition can enjoy the book a little more fully.

The only negative thing I can say about *Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue* is that it’s yet another example of shrinking page length and high priced supplements.  I’ve complained about this trend of WotC’s in previous reviews, and yet here we have an even shorter book priced at 30 bux.  It’s a frustrating trend to watch, and I hope WotC reverses it before the Next edition of D&D comes out.


_So until next review… I wish you Happy Gaming!_

*Grade Card (Ratings 1 to 5)*


*Presentation*: 4.25
- Design: 4.5 (Fantastic layout, great writing, easy to peruse) 
- Illustrations: 4.0 (Gorgeous cover; very good to excellent inner illustrations)
*Content*: 5.0
- Crunch: NA  (There is no Crunch!  Love the Fluff!)
- Fluff: 5.0 (Exceptional system-edition-game neutral Fluff! Tons of campaign and adventure ideas!)
*Value*: 3.5 (Pricey book for its only 130 page length)
 
*Author’s Note*: This author received a complimentary copy of this product for use in writing the above review.


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## Blackwarder (Aug 23, 2012)

I wasn't planing to get that book since I figured that it will be heavy with 4e crunch and focused on the new FR but after reading this review I'm actually intrigued (see what I did there?  )

Can we get this in PDF format?

Warder


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## GrayLinnorm (Aug 23, 2012)

But does it have wingless wonders?


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## TheObserver (Aug 23, 2012)

Nice review, and since it has no 4th ed crunch will be added to my FR collection.


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## Nikosandros (Aug 23, 2012)

Blackwarder said:


> Can we get this in PDF format?



Currently, no. But WotC stated that, starting in 2013, they will make available (some of?) their back-catalog in an as yet unspecified electronic format.


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## Herschel (Aug 23, 2012)

Nice write-up, too bad it's good enough to lose a sale. The book is useless to me without crunch and ties to the outside world. It's great for emo-Elf fanboys and those who don't have other material about the city but I do.


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## Blackwarder (Aug 23, 2012)

Herschel said:


> Nice write-up, too bad it's good enough to lose a sale. The book is useless to me without crunch and ties to the outside world. It's great for *emo-Elf fanboys* and those who don't have other material about the city but I do.




Good for you, no need to be a dick about it...

Warder


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## Herschel (Aug 23, 2012)

Blackwarder said:


> I wasn't planing to get that book since I figured that it will be heavy with 4e crunch and focused on the new FR but after reading this review I'm actually intrigued (see what I did there?  )
> 
> Can we get this in PDF format?
> 
> Warder





Blackwarder said:


> Good for you, no need to be a dick about it...
> 
> Warder




Pot, meet kettle.

*Mod Note:* Please see my post below  ~Umbran

What I'm saying is if you're a drow fanboy or don't have previous material, it's nice, but when you've been reading/collecting (hoarding? ) this stuff as long as some of us have, it doesn't offer us really anything new.


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## RangerWickett (Aug 24, 2012)

A friend of mine opened to a random page. I'll try to recall the exact phrasing.

Entertainment
Drow love to party. Their revelries typically involve gathering for dancing, food, and the consumption of strange alchemical substances.



Now replace 'drow' in that sentence with _any other group of people of any race from any planet ever_, and you'll get a sense why I didn't find the writing that compelling. Drow should drip sinister evil. Instead they sound like frat-boys.


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## Umbran (Aug 24, 2012)

Herschel said:


> What I'm saying is if you're a drow fanboy ...





And what I'm saying is that calling people "fanboys" makes you look like a dismissive jerk.  Repetition, and the pot/kettle thing make you look like a knowing and willful jerk.

Whatever you actually are, you're not presenting yourself in a good light.  Do you wish to continue to look like a jerk to the moderating staff?  Then please keep on using that word.  If you don't, perhaps you should change your approach to referring to folks who like stuff you're not into.

Questions or comments?  Please take them to e-mail or PM to the moderator of your choice.  Thanks.


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## renau1g (Aug 24, 2012)

RangerWickett said:


> A friend of mine opened to a random page. I'll try to recall the exact phrasing.
> 
> Entertainment
> Drow love to party. Their revelries typically involve gathering for dancing, food, and the consumption of strange alchemical substances.
> ...




Well, Modrons don't love to party, so there's one 

But yes, that is pretty useless, I don't picture drow as partiers, they are supposed to be the ultimate evil race in the FR, ones that the parents tell their kids about if they don't listen. Their parties may be like sacrifices to Lloth or some other stuff like that.


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## brewdus (Aug 26, 2012)

flyingcircus said:


> I would like to have had the crunch for 4E included, think I will pass.  They're only doing no crunch because of 5E.




The point of system neutral is so you can tailor it to your system of choice.


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## Evenglare (Aug 26, 2012)

brewdus said:


> The point of system neutral is so you can tailor it to your system of choice.




While true, this is a blatant disregard of 4th edition, in prep for 5th edition. If they would like edition less books then they need to make a LINE of them, not just when it's convenient because their efforts are focused on the next edition. I guaranteeing you we won't see any edition less books when 5th edition comes out. May I point out to you the edition less eberron book (adventurer's handbook or whatever it was called) Yeah...

Don't give me that "you can use it for whatever you want". I'd be all for this if it wasnt basically a big slap in the face to 4th edition consumers. I understand why they did it business wise, but what a way to treat your 4th edition customers. There's NO reason that all of this material couldn't have been supplemented with 4th edition crunch, they just do not want to support the system any more ... clearly.


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## Kralin Thornberry (Aug 27, 2012)

Yeah, and with 5E/DnD Next not due out until at least 2014, they could at least keep producing products for the current game instead of giving 4E fans the "edition neutral cold shoulder".

I have all the other Menzoberranzan books, and none of them are edition neutral, why should 4E not get one?

This book, to me at least, is not very useful, especially without the crunch for the traditional drow items and stats for the bigger members of the houses.


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## Mournblade94 (Aug 28, 2012)

Kralin Thornberry said:


> Yeah, and with 5E/DnD Next not due out until at least 2014, they could at least keep producing products for the current game instead of giving 4E fans the "edition neutral cold shoulder".
> 
> I have all the other Menzoberranzan books, and none of them are edition neutral, why should 4E not get one?
> 
> This book, to me at least, is not very useful, especially without the crunch for the traditional drow items and stats for the bigger members of the houses.




There is no way I would have bought this book if it was full of 4e crunch.  The Forgotten Realms needs to take a systems neutral stance at this point.  I think it a wise decision.

Though it is systems neutral it still had information for the plague realms time period.  It had relevant sections to each time period, and described what was happening in Menzo, and with the drow houses for each of them where relevant.

The lack of 4e crunch is a strength of this book, and shows a lot of promise for the sundering and 5e Forgotten Realms.


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## Mournblade94 (Aug 28, 2012)

Evenglare said:


> While true, this is a blatant disregard of 4th edition, in prep for 5th edition. If they would like edition less books then they need to make a LINE of them, not just when it's convenient because their efforts are focused on the next edition. I guaranteeing you we won't see any edition less books when 5th edition comes out. May I point out to you the edition less eberron book (adventurer's handbook or whatever it was called) Yeah...
> 
> Don't give me that "you can use it for whatever you want". I'd be all for this if it wasnt basically a big slap in the face to 4th edition consumers. I understand why they did it business wise, but what a way to treat your 4th edition customers. There's NO reason that all of this material couldn't have been supplemented with 4th edition crunch, they just do not want to support the system any more ... clearly.




There are still so many things that can be used for 4e.  In fact the ranking and worthiness rules are being used in the Council of Spiders Encounters season.

This book is very high quality, with good Forgotten Realms information.  IT also preserves space by not including the crunch of 4e.  There will be crunch released for it via DDI which is the way it should be.

You get your 4e crunch through DDI, and I get a useful book out of it that Ican use with AD&D or Pathfinder.

Its a WIN for Wizards, and they got me at least to start buying products from them again.


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## Zireael (Aug 29, 2012)

Are the house creation and worth system rules any good?


-----------------
About 'editionlessness': I guess there *will* be a line of editionless books and Menzo is just the beginning.


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## lindevi (Aug 29, 2012)

Can anyone elaborate on how much new info it contributes compared to 2nd ed's and 3.5's Drow of the Underdark's? Or is it simply a rehash with some new House and player mechanics?


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## Rune (Aug 29, 2012)

Evenglare said:


> While true, this is a blatant disregard of 4th edition, in prep for 5th edition. If they would like edition less books then they need to make a LINE of them, not just when it's convenient because their efforts are focused on the next edition. I guaranteeing you we won't see any edition less books when 5th edition comes out. May I point out to you the edition less eberron book (adventurer's handbook or whatever it was called) Yeah...
> 
> Don't give me that "you can use it for whatever you want". I'd be all for this if it wasnt basically a big slap in the face to 4th edition consumers. I understand why they did it business wise, but what a way to treat your 4th edition customers. There's NO reason that all of this material couldn't have been supplemented with 4th edition crunch, they just do not want to support the system any more ... clearly.




Kenzer & Co.'s _Kingdoms of Kalamar_ campaign book (for the version of the setting that was "officially" 3rd edition D&D--in other words, officially licensed through the terms of a legal settlement) was also system-neutral.  It, like the Eberron  campaign book you referenced, was excellent--far more useful to me (as a DM) than the matching crunch-filled player's handbooks.

Frankly, as a player of multiple systems, I like the system-neutral approach (although I wouldn't mind seeing some crunch presented somewhere).  I hope to see more of them.

I don't happen to have any interest in the subject matter of _this particular_ product (and I didn't in the 2e days, either).  But the format?  Assuming the content is quality, the format is useful to me.


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## Evenglare (Aug 29, 2012)

I'm not saying edition books are neutral. I'm saying it's BS that wizards only puts them out when it's convenient for them to start pushing their new system. If they want edition neutral books, MAKE A FREAKING ENTIRE LINE OF THEM. I don't see how you can possibly argue FOR wizards when they are completely giving the middle finger to their 4th edition fans in a very blatant way. Don't like the 4th edition material? Don't use it. How can anything MORE to the book, be bad when you can just ignore it? I do it all the time with other system's books.


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## Dice4Hire (Aug 29, 2012)

Evenglare said:


> I'm not saying edition books are neutral. I'm saying it's BS that wizards only puts them out when it's convenient for them to start pushing their new system. If they want edition neutral books, MAKE A FREAKING ENTIRE LINE OF THEM. I don't see how you can possibly argue FOR wizards when they are completely giving the middle finger to their 4th edition fans in a very blatant way. Don't like the 4th edition material? Don't use it. How can anything MORE to the book, be bad when you can just ignore it? I do it all the time with other system's books.




You know, this could be the first in a line of system neutral books. The Greenwood book is coming out soon, though to be fair, I have not heard of any other WOTC books coming out at all. 


WOTC is reaching out to all their supporters, current (4E) and other, with this book and the FR one to come out soon.

I cannot find any fault in that

4E is still being supported online with Dragon and Dungeon.


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## Kralin Thornberry (Aug 30, 2012)

Mournblade94 said:


> There is no way I would have bought this book if it was full of 4e crunch.  The Forgotten Realms needs to take a systems neutral stance at this point.  I think it a wise decision.
> 
> Though it is systems neutral it still had information for the plague realms time period.  It had relevant sections to each time period, and described what was happening in Menzo, and with the drow houses for each of them where relevant.
> 
> The lack of 4e crunch is a strength of this book, and shows a lot of promise for the sundering and 5e Forgotten Realms.




And I respect your opinion.  Honestly, I haven't purchased the book, but I would still have wanted the crunch for 4E that was provided for 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition.


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## Rune (Aug 30, 2012)

Evenglare said:


> I'm saying it's BS that wizards only puts them out when it's convenient for them to start pushing their new system. If they want edition neutral books, MAKE A FREAKING ENTIRE LINE OF THEM.




First of all, both the 4e Eberron and the 3e Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign books previously mentioned were released fairly early on for their respective editions.

Second, I would love to see an entire evergreen line of system-neutral products, but I doubt that WotC has the resources to do that while also supporting their current edition with crunch.  That said, it makes much more sense to have the crunch-heavy books among the earliest releases during an edition cycle and release rules-light material primarily later, after there has been a glut of crunch.



> I don't see how you can possibly argue FOR wizards when they are completely giving the middle finger to their 4th edition fans in a very blatant way. Don't like the 4th edition material? Don't use it. How can anything MORE to the book, be bad when you can just ignore it? I do it all the time with other system's books.




You seem to be very angry.

I consider myself a fan of 4th edition (although not exclusively), and yet I just don't feel that way.  At this point, the _last_ thing I need is more feats, powers, races, paragon paths, or epic destinies.  And, while I _would_ like to see an essentials-style design for the warlord and monk, I'll live without them (besides, my brother & I have already designed a monk defender that is more awesome than any monk WotC has ever designed).

4e already has more crunch than is healthy for it.  I _could_ ignore crunch in these products, but if they're releasing material I can incorporate into my game, I'd rather they fill the pages with stuff whose utility transcends the system I've chosen to play for any given campaign.


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## coach (Aug 31, 2012)

Evenglare said:


> While true, this is a blatant disregard of 4th edition, in prep for 5th edition. If they would like edition less books then they need to make a LINE of them, not just when it's convenient because their efforts are focused on the next edition. I guaranteeing you we won't see any edition less books when 5th edition comes out. May I point out to you the edition less eberron book (adventurer's handbook or whatever it was called) Yeah...
> 
> Don't give me that "you can use it for whatever you want". *I'd be all for this if it wasnt basically a big slap in the face to 4th edition consumers. I understand why they did it business wise, but what a way to treat your 4th edition customers.* There's NO reason that all of this material couldn't have been supplemented with 4th edition crunch, they just do not want to support the system any more ... clearly.




you mean all six of you left? 

all kidding aside it's a business decision clearly

there never were many 4th edition fans after the newness wore off

and a criminally low number of 4E FR products/fans

and now there are drastically less

they want to sell books and know that any sniff of 4E in this book will drive away tens of thousands of dollars for a lame duck (and a severely beaten lame duck at that) edition

system neutral it has a chance


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## Matt James (Sep 1, 2012)

I'm not impartial at all (contributed a little to the book, my older brother was the lead designer, and I designed the _drow treachery cards_) but I think this book will be of value to anyone that wants to revisit Menzoberranzan. 

After all is said and done, WotC is trying to earn money. If 4e crunch books are not earning money in a meaningful way (sustainability, branding, etc...) they need to adapt and move on. I actively design for WotC and even I was getting fatigued by the sheer amount of feats, powers, and abilities in the game. If you're interested in that aspect of the game, Dragon magazine still provides it.


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## Blackwarder (Sep 1, 2012)

Matt James said:


> I'm not impartial at all (contributed a little to the book, my older brother was the lead designer, and I designed the _drow treachery cards_) but I think this book will be of value to anyone that wants to revisit Menzoberranzan.
> 
> After all is said and done, WotC is trying to earn money. If 4e crunch books are not earning money in a meaningful way (sustainability, branding, etc...) they need to adapt and move on. I actively design for WotC and even I was getting fatigued by the sheer amount of feats, powers, and abilities in the game. If you're interested in that aspect of the game, Dragon magazine still provides it.




Hi Matt!

I totally agree, the magazines should hold most of the crunch and the books should be setting neutral.

Any chance of you telling us if the book going to be out in digital form in the near future? I stoped buying printed books five years ago and I'm interested in buying this one.

Warder


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## Matt James (Sep 1, 2012)

Blackwarder said:


> Hi Matt!
> 
> I totally agree, the magazines should hold most of the crunch and the books should be setting neutral.
> 
> ...




I have no clue. That's a question for WotC's business unit.


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## Mournblade94 (Sep 13, 2012)

Evenglare said:


> I'm not saying edition books are neutral. I'm saying it's BS that wizards only puts them out when it's convenient for them to start pushing their new system. If they want edition neutral books, MAKE A FREAKING ENTIRE LINE OF THEM. I don't see how you can possibly argue FOR wizards when they are completely giving the middle finger to their 4th edition fans in a very blatant way. Don't like the 4th edition material? Don't use it. How can anything MORE to the book, be bad when you can just ignore it? I do it all the time with other system's books.




It is better to have all parts of a book be useful rather than a portion.  If there was 4e crunch, that is resource space and development energy not used for something more useful for my purposes.


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## Evenglare (Sep 16, 2012)

I'm not against system neutral books, I LOVE them. My point is that once 5th edition comes around you will never see another system neutral book until they start gearing up for 6th edition. That's what infuriates me the most. If this book had come out and 5th edition was already release you bet your ass this would have been a 5th edition book.


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## Blackwarder (Sep 16, 2012)

Evenglare said:


> I'm not against system neutral books, I LOVE them. My point is that once 5th edition comes around you will never see another system neutral book until they start gearing up for 6th edition. That's what infuriates me the most. If this book had come out and 5th edition was already release you bet your ass this would have been a 5th edition book.




I wouldn't be that sure, granted it might happen but right now, with the why DnDNext is shaping up, they might have problems of writing a 5e system book considering all the modules. What I do believe we might see are books with rules modules in them, just like the Menzoberanzen book got the system to track your standing in the drop city.

Warder


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## Sylrae (Oct 12, 2012)

brewdus said:


> The point of system neutral is so you can tailor it to your system of choice.



Personally I'm happy they're putting out a system neutral book. I have a bunch of the other setting books they released for various editions, and in 3e, and the other 4e setting books I've read, there's far too much crunch for the pagecount.

Its a setting book, not an options book. I want it to be almost entirely setting. That's why I didn't end up picking up Neverwinter.

The pagecount is atrociously short though, it should have been about 100 pages longer, and like 5$ more expensive. That, or it should have been like 8$ cheaper.

As someone who owns this, DotU, the 1990's Menzo boxed set, and 3e Underdark, I think its quite useful. It's a book I've been waiting for for a while.

1. It brings much of the info needed to do a quality drow game to one place.
2. It includes GM advice for running that sort of game.
3. It includes Player advice for playing that sort of game.
4. It gives history of Menzoberranzan outside the 2e timescale. (though annoyingly, virtually no info from 1372-1385DR - which is the time period I was most interested in)

If it had been filled with 4e crunch, I would not have bought it. It gets them sales outside the 4e crowd. Some people didn't find 4e to be the game they wanted to play.

Its a setting book. I wish my 3e setting books were this useful with 4e, or 5e. It's also not a player book, it's a GM book. Put the character options on DDI, in Dragon Magazine Articles. Its all you really need. Players will get access to the options through DDI, and the GM can buy the hardcover book.

I wish all settings were written like this, or "Return to the Road of Kings", or Kingdoms of Kalamar Campaign Guide.

They shouldn't only do this when switching editions though. They should do ALL the setting books this way. I'd buy more setting books. Maybe even just to read.

And I find the fact that it's written in "Align-Left" instead of "Left Justify" to be very odd for an RPG book, but that may be something WotC has been doing for a while that I just missed.


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## S'mon (Oct 12, 2012)

All the other reviews of this book have been pretty negative, so I'm a bit unconvinced by the OP, although his love of WoTC is clear.


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## Sylrae (Oct 12, 2012)

S'mon said:


> All the other reviews of this book have been pretty negative, so I'm a bit unconvinced by the OP, although his love of WoTC is clear.




I picked it up largely because of this review.

I think it is a very useful book for running a drow campaign, though it does have some overlap with both Drow of the Underdark 3e and Menzoberranzan 2e. It has fairly little overlap with Underdark 3e (and I haven't read the 4e underdark book).

If you know alot about drow and have read those other books, perhaps you could have gotten by without it, but it's likely that not everyone in your group has read these things, and there are a couple sections that would make an excellent primer for the players who are less familiar with the subject matter.

I think the book will be useful to me.

Could I have done without it? - It would have taken some more work to prep for the campaign and find the information I needed, but yes I could have.

However, I have & have read Drow of the Underdark 3e, Menzoberranzan 2e, Races of Faerun 3e, FRCS 3e, Grand History of the Realms, Cormanthyr Empire of the Elves, Players guide to Faerun 3e, Underdark 3e, City of the Spider Queen 3e, and Expedition to the Demonweb Pits 3e, and Dragon Magazine #298 in my RPG Book collection, and I have & have read War of the Spider Queen, Lady Penitent, Starlight & Shadows, and the Dark Elf Trilogy; as well as the Last Mythal series (which has a little bit of information on pre-descent drow worked in).

Realistically, all of my players have not read those ~5000+ pages of text.

I think I could do a decent 3.x/pathfinder based Menzoberranzan game, using nothing but Drow of the Underdark 3e and Menzoberranzan City of Intrigue. If I was doing it in 4e, I would probably use the 4e underdark book instead of DotU3e.


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