# "Destroy Undead" class feature



## Shawn_Kehoe (Jul 29, 2007)

Hi all,

Expedition to Castle Ravenloft includes an alternative class feature for the cleric called "Destroy Undead", which replaces a turn attempt with a burst that does 1d6/cleric level to all undead in range. It seems pretty cool, since I've never liked the Turn Undead system in 3.0/3.5.

The weird bit is the save DC formula, which is given as (10+Cleric Level+CHA Modifier) rather than (10+(Cleric Level/2)+CHA mod)

Either this was a typo, or they decided to give the ability an accelerated DC curve - perhaps reasoning that the ability only affects undead, and all undead have good Will saves.

I think this ability was reprinted from Complete Divine. Could someone with that book please verify if the Save DC formula is the same as in Castle Ravenloft?

Thanks!
Shawn


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## Nyarlathotep (Jul 29, 2007)

Shawn_Kehoe said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> Expedition to Castle Ravenloft includes an alternative class feature for the cleric called "Destroy Undead", which replaces a turn attempt with a burst that does 1d6/cleric level to all undead in range. It seems pretty cool, since I've never liked the Turn Undead system in 3.0/3.5.
> 
> ...




I use this varient from Complete Divine in my campaigns and it is a Will save DC = 10 + cleric level + CHA mod. Which is funny, cause I always thought it was 1/2 cleric level as well. Do they give any more explanation about how other spells/ability (synergy bonus from Know (Religion), Hallow, Desecrate, etc.) interact with it? I've order Expedition to Ravenloft, but it won't ship until Expedition to Greyhawk is released.


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## Shawn_Kehoe (Jul 29, 2007)

Nyarlathotep said:
			
		

> I use this varient from Complete Divine in my campaigns and it is a Will save DC = 10 + cleric level + CHA mod. Which is funny, cause I always thought it was 1/2 cleric level as well. Do they give any more explanation about how other spells/ability (synergy bonus from Know (Religion), Hallow, Desecrate, etc.) interact with it? I've order Expedition to Ravenloft, but it won't ship until Expedition to Greyhawk is released.




It says that anything which would normally provide a bonus to a turning check instead increases the DC of the Will save.

Shawn


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## Tiberius (Jul 29, 2007)

What do evil clerics get in return? Also, what steps does this variant take to ensure that turn resistance remains viable?


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## Shawn_Kehoe (Jul 29, 2007)

Turn Resistance basically becomes DR/- against Destroy Undead damage, although some have suggested it should instead provide a bonus to the save for half-damage.

Shawn


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## Raylis (Jul 29, 2007)

Tiberius said:
			
		

> What do evil clerics get in return? Also, what steps does this variant take to ensure that turn resistance remains viable?




Evil Clerics gain the ability to heal undead for 1d6/level


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## wedgeski (Jul 30, 2007)

Are the Complete Divine and EtCR variants basically the same?


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## FireLance (Jul 30, 2007)

Shawn_Kehoe said:
			
		

> The weird bit is the save DC formula, which is given as (10+Cleric Level+CHA Modifier) rather than (10+(Cleric Level/2)+CHA mod)
> 
> Either this was a typo, or they decided to give the ability an accelerated DC curve - perhaps reasoning that the ability only affects undead, and all undead have good Will saves.



I think the other key factor is that undead tend to have high HD relative to their CR. So, in order for an undead creature to have a reasonable (for the cleric ) chance of failing the save, the saving throw DC has to go up rather quickly.

For example, a CR 18 nightcrawler has 25 HD and a base Will save of +14. Add in bonuses from Iron Will, 20 Wisdom and Desecrating Aura, and its final Will save is +23.  An 18th-level cleric has a base turn DC of 28 + Charisma bonus, so a nightcrawler has a 55% chance of saving against a Destroy Undead attempt from an 18th-level cleric with 20 Charisma.


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## Corbert (Aug 1, 2007)

I use this variant in my campaign.  If an undead creature has turn resistance that gets added as a bonus to its saving throw.  Also, after the save is resolved I also roll 1d6 per point of turn resistance and take that off the remaining damage.  This really helps balance out a high level clerics turn damage, at least for my game.


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## Felix (Aug 1, 2007)

Raylis said:
			
		

> Evil Clerics gain the ability to heal undead for 1d6/level



This is extraordinarily lame.

Instead of being able to rebuke or control the enemy undead that are coming to attack them, Evil clerics now are able to... wait for it... _heal_ the enemy undead that are coming to attack them.

That was the draw of being an Evil cleric (or the trouble if you were fighting them); you may not be able to spontaneously cast _Cure_ spells, but any undead you encounter could become your ally. This variant wipes out that aspect. That's a damned shame.


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## Klaus (Aug 1, 2007)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> Are the Complete Divine and EtCR variants basically the same?



 Yep.


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## Corbert (Aug 3, 2007)

Felix said:
			
		

> This is extraordinarily lame.
> 
> Instead of being able to rebuke or control the enemy undead that are coming to attack them, Evil clerics now are able to... wait for it... _heal_ the enemy undead that are coming to attack them.
> 
> That was the draw of being an Evil cleric (or the trouble if you were fighting them); you may not be able to spontaneously cast _Cure_ spells, but any undead you encounter could become your ally. This variant wipes out that aspect. That's a damned shame.




Actually I think healing undead is an option, you can rebuke them normally instead if you want.


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## GodOfCheese (Aug 3, 2007)

Felix said:
			
		

> This is extraordinarily lame.
> 
> Instead of being able to rebuke or control the enemy undead that are coming to attack them, Evil clerics now are able to... wait for it... _heal_ the enemy undead that are coming to attack them.
> 
> That was the draw of being an Evil cleric (or the trouble if you were fighting them); you may not be able to spontaneously cast _Cure_ spells, but any undead you encounter could become your ally. This variant wipes out that aspect. That's a damned shame.




Why not make it effectively dominating the undead?  Deal turning damage as with a good cleric, with a Will for half.  However, the damage is equivalent to subdual-- once you do the undead's current hit points in damage, the undead is now Controlled by you.  


This doesn't address Bolstering the undead, although I've never seen anyone even try to do that.  It seems so wasteful to bolster your throwaway minions when you could just attack the bad guys.


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## green slime (Aug 3, 2007)

Tiberius said:
			
		

> What do evil clerics get in return? Also, what steps does this variant take to ensure that turn resistance remains viable?




A negative energy burst that harms paladins and good-aligned clerics?


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## Felix (Aug 3, 2007)

Corbert said:
			
		

> Actually I think healing undead is an option, you can rebuke them normally instead if you want.



The damage-undead variant was made for simplicity's sake; instead of looking up the rules every time you want to Turn Undead, just do 1d6 damage per cleric level, Will for half. That part of it is elegant. But to be truly elegant it should work just as well for the Evil clerics who used to Rebuke instead of Turn. A campaign that isn't too concerned with Evil clerics Rebuking, this variant works fine; I just happen to like Evil clerics that can control Undead.

Viconia De'Vir wouldn't have been nearly as useful in Baldur's Gate II if she healed instead of commanded undead, eh?



			
				GodOfCheese said:
			
		

> Why not make it effectively dominating the undead? Deal turning damage as with a good cleric, with a Will for half. However, the damage is equivalent to subdual-- once you do the undead's current hit points in damage, the undead is now Controlled by you.



Could do, but this gets complicated. A variant made for simplicity's sake should be simpler than what it's replacing.


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## Klaus (Aug 3, 2007)

green slime said:
			
		

> A negative energy burst that harms paladins and good-aligned clerics?



 That's so old school, I love it!


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