# I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND



## KChagga (May 16, 2003)

Saw an early matinee of Matrix Reloaded yesterday.  I thought it was cool. Definitely more action than the last movie.
There was no crazy head trip ideas presented though The only ideas presented were already hinted at in the first movie.

I thought the twins were cool, but I don't think they used them enough.
I had an idea though, if the twins were supposed to be ghosts and the guards for the Veringion(or whatever the french pervert programs name was) were supposed to be werewolves (the lady did say they had to be killed with silver bullets), what then will vampires and aliens be?  The oracle clearly named vampires and aliens when she was talking about rogue programs.


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## Truth Seeker (May 16, 2003)

Shhhhhhhhh....I am watching it now.....


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## KenM (May 16, 2003)

Did anyone notice in the scene with Neo and the oracle, the soundtrack seemed just a little "off"?  It might have been the place I saw it. Also in the fight right after,, why did Neo stay when he could have just flown away at the start? I know it was a cool looking fight, but why stay and risk it? Also if Neo is basically a god in the matrix, why would he want to leave it? Trinity KNOWS She is in a computer simulation, so if She knows the bullets are not real, why does the bullet hurt Her? The said in the first movie its mind over matter.


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## Datt (May 16, 2003)

I think he stayed to fight because he didn't know there was going to be a ton of Agent Smith's.  Plus I am sure he was curious as to how he was back after Neo killed him and wanted to know why he gave him his ear piece at the beginning.

As for Trinity getting killed, she isn't as tough mentally as Neo is.  Neo is the only one that can fly, stop bullets and what not.  The rest are just super strong and kind of fast.  They can bend some of the rules but not break them.  I think stopping a bullet, and dieing would be breaking the rules.

Also I want to know if Neo is going to recognize that guy on the table as the one in his dream that Smith took over.


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## Dagger75 (May 16, 2003)

Neo stayed and fought simply because he thought he could beat Agent Smith.   When you think you are a god why not show off.


The "rave" scene was so freaken stupid. I was waiting for Blade to be in the audience or some stupid MTV VJ doing those lame Spring Break thing.

 The twins are not the werewolves, I think they are the ghosts. Persephonie was talking about the 1 gaurd she shot and the one she let run away. Those were the werewolves.

 The ending was... well don't know what to think of it.

 My score 8.5/10


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## HalfElfSorcerer (May 16, 2003)

I figured out what's up with the Merivingian.  I think.  Ok, see, the Merivingian is Hades, lord of the Underworld, because he hangs around with all the rogue programs.  The werewolves, ghosts, vampires.  His wife's name is Persephone b/c that's what Hades/Pluto's wife's name was, except she didn't really love Hades, she was his wife cuz she ate the fruit of the underworld.  And, considering how perverted the M is, it seems obvious that Persephone wouldn't love him.

I was a bit confused about something.  Is Zion toast, or not?  I didn't quite catch what happened.


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## EricNoah (May 16, 2003)

HalfElfSorcerer said:
			
		

> * Is Zion toast, or not?  I didn't quite catch what happened. *




No, I don't think so.  It's gonna happen soon, though, I think.  The "sole survivor" was the Agent Smith dude from that other ship explosion, not from Zion being destroyed.


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## Assenpfeffer (May 16, 2003)

Maybe it was the hype, but I left the theater a bit disappointed.  It's by no means a terrible movie, but it's not as good as the first - and inferior to X2, in my opinion.

The fight with the Smiths looked very, very phoney, I thought - this is the "revolutionary virtual cinematography" that the tech people who worked on the movie have been hyping in the trade press.  Bah - the same thing was used in Blade II, and looked better.

The highway sequence did rock on toast.  But the encounter with the Architect was, I thought, a massive chokepoint - it dropped me right out of the film.

I'm still going to see the third one, mind.


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## Remathilis (May 16, 2003)

Can someone explain to me what the Architect was babbling about? I understood that the Matrix and Zion have been rebuilt six times, and that "The One" is the catalyst, by WHY? Why rebuilt Zion?


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 16, 2003)

KChagga said:
			
		

> *
> There was no crazy head trip ideas presented though The only ideas presented were already hinted at in the first movie.
> *




You sure we watched the same movie?

The ending had a major spin on it. "The Prophesy" was created by the machines. There have been 5 other "The One"s. Zion was created by the machines as a holding pen for the 1% of the humans who couldn't except The Matrix. Neo has powers that can effect the real world. The other rogue programs. 

I think those are some pretty astounding revelations and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.

Almost everyone I talked to had a hard time deciphering the ending. Here is my two cents.

Neo meets the Architect.
The Architect reveals a series of facts not previosly known.

The Oracle came up with the idea that humans had to be given a choice, even if only subconsciously, of whether or not to except the Matrix as reality.
1% of people reject the Matrix
Those who reject the Matrix, end up in Zion. Zion is allowed to exist by the machines.
"The One" is a flaw in the program that can't be fixed. Instead, the machines try to control him. they created the Prophesy to guide him to the Architect.
Five other "Ones" have been through this all before. 
The One has a choice. He can visit the Source and restart the Matrix. If he does this, he will get to choose 23 people to rebuild Zion and restart the human race. His other choice is to destroy the Matrix. Doing this will kill everyone still inside and the machines will attack Zion in full force killing everyone. Neo chooses option 2 so he can go after Trinity. Oddly enough, the Matrix was not immediatly destroyed. Maybe soon?
[/list=1] 

Now, after he ressurrects Trinity, they leave the Matrix and are attacked by sentinals. Neo does something, and kills them. 

How?

*A few possibilities*

1. They are not, and never have been, in the real world. Zion is yet another layer of manufactured reality.

2. Neo is more than human. It seems Neo has two "gifts". The ability to manipulate the matrix, and The Sight, the ability to predict the future. 

The Sight was revealed directly from the Oracle and Neo's dreams. 

Ok. So now we know that Neo is a psychic. This is probably the reason why he can do what he does to the matrix. His mind is evolved a bit further than the norm. I'm thinking that it is the next step in his mental evolution. 

Step 1: Neo always knew there was something wrong with the world. He sensed it. 
Step 2: He is awakened by Morpheus. He learns that he can control the Matrix, in effect, he learns to use his mind to manipulate "reality". 
Step 3: His acceptance of his powers in the matrix acts as a training ground for the real world. Through everything he has been through, he has become "enlightened' and has some measure of control over the real world. 

The movies have a lot of Eastern influences. Many Eastern philosophies teach that, once you acheive total enlightenment, you can manipulate the laws of reality. 

3. When Neo was almost assimilated by Smith, something happened that linked him more intimately with the machines.

4. Neo can influence the machines by remote. His affinity for the Matrix allows him to "jack in" remotely and gain a messure of control over the machines.


Another thing not immediatly noticable is Smith's presence in the real world. I'm not real sure where they are going with that, but I assume it came from the fact that he "assimilated" a "free mind".


Personally, I LOVED the movie. It was much deeper than the first, and the action was great. My only complaint was that the "rave" scene was a bit too long.

And no, Zion is not destroyed yet. In the previews for Revolutions, they say that they have something like 9 hours before the attack. Evidently, Revolutions will take up exactly where Reloaded ended.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 16, 2003)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> *Can someone explain to me what the Architect was babbling about? I understood that the Matrix and Zion have been rebuilt six times, and that "The One" is the catalyst, by WHY? Why rebuilt Zion? *




You guys can think me later...  


Architect: Hello Neo 

Neo: Who are you? 

Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question maybe the most pertinent you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant. 

Neo: Why am I here? 

Architect: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent in the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden deciduously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexcerably here. 

Neo: You haven’t answered my question. 

Architect: Quite right. Interesting, that was quicker then the others. 

Neo: Others? (What others? How many? Answer me) 

Architect: The Matrix is older then you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next. In which case this is the sixth version. 

Neo: Then there are only two possible explanations, either no one told me, or no one knows. 

Architect: Precisely, as you are undoubtedly gathering the anomaly is systemic. Creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations. 

Neo: Choice, the problem is choice. 

Architect: The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect; it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it, Based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However I was again frustrated my failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another, and intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother. 

Neo: The Oracle 

Architect: Please, as I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at an unconscious level. While this answered function it was obviously fundamentally flawed thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly. That if left unchecked might threaten the system itself, ergo those that refuse the program while the minority if unchecked would cause an escalating probability of disaster. 

Neo: This is about Zion 

Architect: You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated. 

Neo: Bull 

Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it. The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race. 

Neo: You won’t let it happen, you can’t. You need human beings to survive. 

Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However the relevant issue is whether you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world. It is interesting reading your reactions. Your 5 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way your experience is far more specific, Vis a vie love. 

Neo: Trinity 

Architect: Apropo, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own. 

Neo: No 

Architect: Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors, the door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion, the door to your left leads back to the matrix to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know we you are going to do don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth, she is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness. 

Neo: If I were you, I would hope that we don’t meet again. 

Architect: We won’t.


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## d12 (May 16, 2003)

> There was no crazy head trip ideas presented though The only ideas presented were already hinted at in the first movie.




I gotta disagree.  "Neo, you aren't the messiah, you're an aberration in the program.  But we've fixed you by making you an intergral part of the program.  You see, you don't rip down the system, you restart it [HENCE THE NAME OF THE MOVIE!!!]"

I thought the movie rocked on so many different levels.  the Kung-Fu was awesome to be sure but also all the philosophical quandries about free will vs. determinism that go throughout.  I mean, how many times did different characters reference something happing because it had to happen.  Yet in the end, Neo is given a choice - or is he?  Is the Oracle an all-wise Yoda character or is she in with the bad guys?  

On Zion - The Oracle was the one that said 99% of the humans would accept the Matrix if given the choice, even on a unconcious level.  Maybe Zion is where the system spits out people that don't want to be part of the system.  Then, every once in a while - it wipes Zion out and restarts it.  Why?  Having those discontented ones inside brings the system down.  So, let em get out and go to Zion.  Zion hence functions like the garbage bin of the Matrix.  

But here's where it gets good...how was Neo able to bring down those sentinels in the real world?   Maybe the real world isn't real at all but rather another level of the Matrix - this one designed for malcontents who won't be good little batteries unless they can rebel.  But then that would mean that the Matrix triology would be ripping off The 13th Floor....

This was easily the best sequel I have ever seen - yep, even better than Empire....

anyway, just my opinion


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## d12 (May 16, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle, 

Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.


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## EricNoah (May 16, 2003)

Thanks!  That'll be very helpful for future discussion...


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 16, 2003)

You're welcome.

I just wish I had transcripts of the Oracles's and the Marlvingian's(sp?) discussions.

A guy on Penny-Arcade posted the one above.


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## d12 (May 16, 2003)

I *think* its "Merovingian"  - after a line of Frankish Kings.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 16, 2003)

d12 said:
			
		

> *I *think* its "Merovingian"  - after a line of Frankish Kings. *




You are correct. Thank you.


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## KChagga (May 16, 2003)

> There was no crazy head trip ideas presented though The only ideas presented were already hinted at in the first movie.




Perhaps I should have phrased that differently, but I still stand behind it.  I should have said that there were no NEW crazy head trip ideas only expansion on the previous ones.  In the first Matrix movie Agent Smith tells Morpheus about the previous matrices.  He also tells about how the first was an absolute failure.  It is little effort to imagine that all the people were recreated in each matrix.  Why go through all of the effort to come up with new lifestories and backgrounds.  This makes it no surprise to me that there have been previous Neos.

Don't get me wrong I loved the movie.  Just disappointed we didn't have any brand new crazy ideas.

I personally really hope that it doesn't turn out to be a nested matrix thing.  That will be exceptionally lame.  Just as bad as having Neo wake up and realize everything was a dream.  Unfortunately the nested matrix idea is the only one that seems to work for me about Neo stopping the squiddies.  I hope that somehow he learned to control them from Agent Smith, but I find that hard to believe.  Why would a program from the matrix be able to control real world machines.  Heck Smith can't even control the other agents just gives orders that don't have to be followed.  We get Neo having the squiddies right on top of them and he extends his hand(communicating with the squiddies,"Please stop!!").  The squiddies pause for a tenth of a second and then rip them apart.


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## Eridanis (May 16, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *You guys can think me later...
> *



A very interesting typo, considering the points you're making. 

I hope to see this in the next week or two.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 16, 2003)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *
> A very interesting typo, considering the points you're making.
> 
> I hope to see this in the next week or two. *




ahhh... but you assume it was a typo instead of a bad pun.


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## Andrew D. Gable (May 16, 2003)

*Re: Re: I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND*



			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *he will get to choose 23 people to rebuild Zion and restart the human race.*




23! Behold the hand of the Illuminati! 

Speculations - I'm thinking Persephone (if she's in the next one) will have a part to play, along with Smith.  The Greek Persephone's dual nature, after all, maybe she can go back and forth between the Matrix and the real world like Neo and the gang.

Anyhow, was I the only one who thought maybe the next one won't end with the defeat of the machines?  The whole conversation between the Counsellor and Neo about how we need machines, and they need us just seemed like a wee bit of foreshadowing.  Maybe they'll learn to coexist?  Drawing on what the Architect said, maybe the Matrix will learn to accept anomalies?  

I really think the twins will be back in Revolutions.  There wasn't any "closure" to them (AFAIK, they didn't die in the explosion).  Is it just me, or when the Agent jumped onto the car with Trinity, Morpheus, Keymaker, and the Twin, did it seem to anyone else like he was shooting at the Twin moreso than the other folks?  And the Twin shot back... possibly implies there's a bit more to them.

But I thought it was quite good.  A bit slower than the first, and more dependent on story than kewl fight scenes, but good.


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## Andrew D. Gable (May 16, 2003)

KChagga said:
			
		

> *vampires*




Well, back to Persephone again, at least one article I read called her a vampire.  Whether that holds some meaning or not, I don't know.  Personally, I thought that the alien quote referred to self-replicators, like Agent Smith - though one could argue that was vampires, as well.


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## Welverin (May 16, 2003)

*Re: Re: I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND*



			
				KChagga said:
			
		

> *I thought the twins were cool, but I don't think they used them enough.
> I had an idea though, if the twins were supposed to be ghosts and the guards for the Veringion(or whatever the french pervert programs name was) were supposed to be werewolves (the lady did say they had to be killed with silver bullets), what then will vampires and aliens be?  The oracle clearly named vampires and aliens when she was talking about rogue programs. *




In early previews for Enter the Matrix it was mentioned that you would fight Vampires, and I believe other supernaturals as well, needless to say at the time I was rather baffled by that, but no longer. The game includes things not in the movie and it would appear Vampires are one of them.



			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *Neo: If I were you, I would hope that we don?t meet again.
> 
> Architect: We won?t.*




At which point I was expecting Neo to pull and agent Smith on the Architect, boy was I wrong.



			
				Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> *
> Well, back to Persephone again, at least one article I read called her a vampire.  Whether that holds some meaning or not, I don't know.*




I saw one where the actress referred to the character as an emotion/feeling vampire, she can?t feel anything herself so she leeches feelings from others.


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## Dagger75 (May 17, 2003)

At work last night I tried to simplify the movie for someone else. 

  The following dialouge is ficticious but I think it is kinda funny. 

Me- "You know when you first get your computer, everything runs nice neat.  Then you start adding programs and games, deleteing them and what not. The computer starts to slow down, files get corrupted, what do you do?"

Other Guy "Format and reinstall windows."

Me- "Yup Neo is a Windows XP CD and they are re-istalling the Matrix"

Other Guy- "Does that mean Agent Smith is like a pop up add. They just keep popping up, close one 2 new ones open"

Me- "You got it."

Other Guy- "So this Architech is basically Bill Gates.  Do what I say or the whole world dies."

Me- "Basically."

Other Guy "What at the end where Neo is out of the Matrix and does that psionic stuff"

Me-  "Well you know that Windows XP CD that NEO is, well it jumps out of the Computer and starts running around and then fries your mouse or something like that"

 Other Guy "So let me get this straight, my computer is running slow and acting up, so I decide to re-intall windows. Bill Gates said I had to or the world dies.  I put the CD in my computer but it jumps out and fries my mouse  and then runs and hides plotting to destroy my computer."

Me- "Yup, we have to wait to Novemeber to see how your CD destroyed your mouse and whether your computer is completely fired."

Other Guy "I think I'm going to buy a Mac next time."


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## Wayside (May 17, 2003)

d12 said:
			
		

> *
> Is the Oracle an all-wise Yoda character or is she in with the bad guys?
> *




My guess is that the Oracle is a good guy.  She was written to examine human nature; she already knows the choice Neo is going to make, and she says something like 'you're making me into a believer.'  Besides, Seraph is too cool to be a bad guy.

And, if they use some lame recursive matrices plot, I will demand my money back when Revolutions comes out.


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## Welverin (May 17, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *And, if they use some lame recursive matrices plot, I will demand my money back when Revolutions comes out. *




Guys you're forgetting, or not realizing, that Neo is a superhero and Reloded showed us he is in the real world and not just the Matrix.

Of course I could just be in denial of recursion.


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## John Crichton (May 17, 2003)

I am torn.

I liked the movie overall.  But I think I need to see it again before I make any statements that could get me flamed (in a peaceful, ENWorld-esque way) straight out of here.  

I will say that I enjoyed more of the dialogue scenes than I did of the action scenes.  The action scenes, while impressive, lacked something compared to the action of the first film.  I loved the scenes with The Oracle, The Architect, Persephone and Merovingian.  The twins were cool (and as an aside, I think they may have been the vampires rather than ghosts, but I can buy either).

I saw both of the twists coming, as they were foreshadowed big-time (not a problem there):  the Smith-absorbed guy playing havoc @ Zion and the True History and Purpose of The One.  I have a sneaking suspicion that The Architect was there as a fail-safe for The One.  The machines know about The One and they know that he can't be controlled, only contained.  The direction of the movie seems to be that Neo can do even more than even Morpheus believed he initially could.

I will see it again and may have to retract this but the action scenes seemed muted.  Maybe because I felt little to no fear that anything bad would happen to the main characters.  No sense of dread, no feeling of urgency.

But all that aside, I did enjoy it.  And the fact remains that I need to see it again to answer some questions for myself.  That is, I guess, a compliment.  Maybe I'll know after the second viewing...


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## Azlan (May 17, 2003)

d12 said:
			
		

> * On Zion - The Oracle was the one that said 99% of the humans would accept the Matrix if given the choice, even on a unconcious level. Maybe Zion is where the system spits out people that don't want to be part of the system. Then, every once in a while - it wipes Zion out and restarts it. Why? Having those discontented ones inside brings the system down. So, let em get out and go to Zion.  Zion hence functions like the garbage bin of the Matrix.
> 
> But here's where it gets good... how was Neo able to bring down those sentinels in the real world? Maybe the real world isn't real at all but rather another level of the Matrix - this one designed for malcontents who won't be good little batteries unless they can rebel. But then that would mean that the Matrix triology would be ripping off The 13th Floor...*




I found myself thinking along those same lines, during the exchange between Neo and the Architect. And when I saw Neo, in the supposed real world, _zap_ those machines chasing them... ! Well, that really got me to thinking.

Indeed, if the inhabitants of Zion are simply those humans forced to live out in the real world after having not "chosen" the Matrix, why would the machines let them go, allowing them to live and habitate? It would be far more efficient and secure for the cold and calculating machines to simply exterminate those humans immediately upon their making the "wrong" choice.

But if Zion is just another level of the Matrix, then the machines can still be harvesting energy from their real-life bodies... !

Some people found the dialog between Neo and the Architect rather boring. But me, I found it to be one of the redeeming qualities of the movie.


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## Vocenoctum (May 17, 2003)

Azlan said:
			
		

> *
> Indeed, if the inhabitants of Zion are simply those humans forced to live out in the real world after having not "chosen" the Matrix, why would the machines let them go, allowing them to live and habitate? It would be far more efficient and secure for the cold and calculating machines to simply exterminate those humans immediately upon their making the "wrong" choice.
> *




Haven't seen the movie (probably won't for a while) but, perhaps the process of allowing the humans to survive, so that they may then free other disenters to join them is what they need. The humans go in, and weed out the anomalies for the Matrix. The Oracle is the lady from the first? then she's working with the humans to help them get people out.

The machines would eliminate the disension, if they knew who it was, but they need Free Willed beings to track down their compatriots.


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## coyote6 (May 17, 2003)

I'm still wondering if the whole "humans-as-batteries" thing won't turn out to be yet another lie. After all, if Morpheus is living in the sixth Zion, and it has existed for 100 years, then it's probably been 600 years (and at least 225 -- five generations + Zion's current 100) since this whole thing started. So how the hell would they know why the machines were doing what they were doing, unless they learned it from the machines? And if the great Prophecy was a lie . . .

In any case, I liked the movie.


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## RolandOfGilead (May 17, 2003)

*Merovingian...*

You all might be interested to know that the merovingians are also closely linked to a "Jesus - Mary Magdalene" rumor.
this rumor is discussed at length in the book, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail".  Essentially, the idea is that Jesus was in fact a member
of the jewish nobility under roman rule.. who naturally rebel.  The jewish people formed a society.. called "Zealots".. whom Jesus would then be a member of.  Jesus wasnt crucified because the jews wanted it, but because pontius pilate was punishing a known rablerouser.  The scene of Jesus's first miracle, the transforming of water to wine, takes place at a wedding. We are never privy to the specifics, but the authors conjecture that the wedding MUST be Jesus's own, because only the groom would be required to provide wine for the guests. Further, Mother Mary acts imperial to the servants at the wedding, implying that she was held in honor at the wedding.  Who would Jesus marry? Well - Enter Mary Magdalene.  WE know her as the prostitute that annointed Jesus's feet in the bible, but in fact, this could be because the disciples, who wrote the collective stories about her, were actually jealous of her relationship to Jesus.  Also - Barrabus - is very similar to a word in hebrew meaning son of the rabbi, so the implication is that Barrabus was the son of jesus, and pontius pilate was cruelly asking the crowd.. "Do I crucify the father or the son?".. now you understand why the crowd chose Barrabus.  The book also contends that the entire crucifixion was a sham... an agreement by jesus and pontius pilate to appear to  punish him, but to allow him to escape.. to france. where he and his wife, Mary, sired a line of french nobility, the merovingians.  The method they arrive at these assumptions is fascinating, and while the whole thing is just a galactic guess, there is some evidence that supports everything they are saying.  Its a great read, and you'd do well to check on it, if you want to know more about Merovingians and "Secrets".....


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## RolandOfGilead (May 17, 2003)

Another point I forgot to mention: 
If jesus was a rebel, you ask, why does he say "render unto caesar"?

Well, simple.  After his crucifixion, his disciples were left in terrible fear.  They wanted to appear as a peaceful sect, because they didnt really want to die on roman swords.  So they ABSOLVE pontius pilate of all guilt in the deed, by saying the jews demanded jesus's sacrifice. And in writing the scriptures, they knew they were writing to a largely roman audience..so all mention of rebellion against roman rule was removed.

Neat, and tidy.


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## Starman (May 17, 2003)

Am I the only one who thought the Architect was either lying abouit some things or not telling the whole story in order to manipulate Neo? I just got the feeling he was hiding something.

Starman


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## Grue (May 17, 2003)

I thought the subtext of the fundamental flaw of the Matrix was that the system was not truly random.  Falling into predicable patterns and eliminating 'Free Will' (the Merovingen's cause and effect discussion).  

I'm not sure Neo has 'Free Will' but the Architect sets up a choice for him to make to determine the shape of the future.  I'm not sure how much of a choice it was however.  Zion (apparently) was set up as a spillover for the rebels of the system (though Zion's population of 250,000 and the suggestion that 1% won't accept the Matrix also suggests the world's population is a lot less than 6-7 billion).  The Architect also comments on Neo's emotional\biological state determining that he has already made the choice (back to the scene with the Merovingen in the restaurant and the women's response to the dessert).  Given that Neo the rebel has already been told, "Hey the last five guys that were here went through the Right Door," and the woman he has the strongest emotional response to is through the Left ("Hey but you have No Hope of saving her.... and Hope definitely isn't a heroic trait.") I'm not sure Neo actually exercised free will.

Regarding the predicability of the Matrix, it isn't a system where butterflies in China are randomly creating tornados in Kansas.  The Oracle comments on the ravens (if I remember correctly) and the wind being a program... all aspects of the system are programs.  I think the Oracle's prophecies come from her near total understanding of the human psyche and fact that the Matrix is not random.  I think Neo's foresight\power comes from the fact his subconsious can assimilate and predict the pattern.

I'm pretty sure there is at least another level to the simulation.  The 'humans are batteries' thing on the Zion reality could just be device for the Zion humans to do all sorts of horrible things to the humans on the Matrix reality level and not suffer all sorts of psychological damage.  I have no idea what the relationship between humans and the machines\matrix is though.  I think it was somewhat foreshadowed in the scene with Neo and the old councilman on the machine level in Zion (where he talks about the codependency of humanity and the tools of civilization).  I'm not sure where it's headed though I sortof suspect humans (not machines) created the Matrix.


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## Olive (May 17, 2003)

*Re: Re: I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND*



			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *My only complaint was that the "rave" scene was a bit too long.*




a BIT long? 

good movie, plot/spiritobabble was just as dumb as the first one, lots of good blowing things up/fights.

thinking about the matrix to hard is like thinking about star wars to hard: a waste of time IMHO.


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## Wayside (May 17, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND*



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> *
> thinking about the matrix to hard is like thinking about star wars to hard: a waste of time IMHO. *




Haha, this is true.  That's what Dune is for .  Still, it's fun to speculate, though every conjecture I've seen here so far makes me wince.  If there's another twist I'm praying it's something out of left field that we couldn't possibly predict with the limited information we have so far.

Haven't heard anybody mention the trailer for Matrix Revolutions yet.. did people just not know to stay through the credits to see it?


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## EricNoah (May 17, 2003)

Over at Nutkinland someone posted a theory that food is programming (the red pill, the cake) and pointed out that Neo was offered food by the Oracle in both movies.  

---

The Oracle was either misleading or wrong in the first film (misleading is my vote) as she flat out said that either Morpheous or Neo was going to die -- and neither did.  

Didn't the same thing happen re: the Architect?  Didn't he say Trinity was definitely going to die?  Yet she didn't.  

So either they do know the future but lie about it to sway "the One" or they are genuinely surprised when he is able to find a way around the "binary" choices he's been given.


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## Truth Seeker (May 17, 2003)

*Spoilers, moilers......*

May I ask this one thing.....do spoilers have their worth to be posted?

Seeing Matrix at 11:00 a.m. on discount. Today.

No spoilers from me......


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## Tsyr (May 17, 2003)

My thoughts thus far, after a 4-hour car ride discussing this with a friend:

1) We are really heavily leaning towards the "It's another matrix" hypothesis. First, it doesn't really make any SENSE for the machines to not do that. And the whole zion/tunnels matrix is a lot smaller and (probably) easier to manage/secure than the main matrix... It's a holding program for people who have figured out what the main matrix is. Also, the logistics of recreating zion time and time again with 23 people, and them not knowing about it, are just silly... unless it's all a computer program. Then it would be easy.

2) As an extension of that, we have high hopes that the whole humans=batteries thing is a lie... though we havn't found a good other explanation, unless it's one of these two things:

a) They (the machines) are using us as a case study for 
something... perhaps trying to improve themselves.

b) The Matrix might not be what we (and they) think it is. If we accept that Zion exists in a second matrix, perhaps the entire story is false... Perhaps we are not imprisoned by the machines as we thing. I'm borring a bit from a Stargate SG-1 episode, but... What if we did that to ourselves? Say we did destroy the world, somehow... nuclear war, something... What if we put as many humans as possible into a sort of protective existance... Maybe the machines are trying to keep us there for our own good, or perhaps the machines have gone haywire over the years...

3) Assuming the Architect was right about there being 5 prior iterations of Neo, then there have probably also been 5 prior iterations of the matrix... After each cycle, the world is probably reset... Think about it... If we assume this happens every hundred years (I think it's probably longer), then the world would have started in the 1500's, because it exists at about the year 2000 in the matrix. How did people from the 1500's hack out of the matrix and so forth? When The One rebuilds Zion, and returns his code to the original source, the matrix probably resets, and is down for updates, if you will... Humans might be shunted to a seperate matrix, or possibly the planned upgrades are worked on over those 100 years, and done really quickly during the restart.

4) As an extension of that... The other program-thugs... The twins, the "werewolf", etc... I had an interesting thought. We saw several iterations of them, right? Like, 3-5? What if they are left-over agents from earlier iterations of the matrix? From what we know of the Merovingian, I could easily see him keeping relics like that around as body guards... programs that didn't want to be deleted when the Architect came out with Agent 2.0, etc. 

4b) Said friend questioned why they would abandon the twin-type agent, as they seem so good. Well, we don't really know that. All we know is they are tough in a fight. Perhaps they aren't very smart, or something? More than that, though... We know that when things are massively changed in the matrix, it causes glitches, right? The deja vu? What if their ability to go ghost-like, considering how much they do that, causes a lot of glitches, leading to instablities in the matrix in the area they do stuff in? Or maybe something else, I don't know...

5) Though, on the rogue programs... That information is suspect. For all we know, the Oracle is working with the Architect (Very possible, actualy), and thus we can't trust any of the stuff she told Neo. Like was said about her... She tells you exactly what you need to hear. It's in the Architect's best interest that Neo realize what he is and complete the established cycle, so if the Oracle is working with him, she would tell Neo whatever he needs to hear to that end.

6) Smith. Smith... What is Smith? I'm thinking he himself is an anomaly himself. His words to Neo... "I must thank you for setting me free", or something like that... We thought at first it just meant that Neo somehow lead to his ability to brain-jack people... But remember the very beginning, Smith gave Neo his ear-plug, in a symbolic fashion... In the first movie, I got the impression that the ear-plug was sort of a link to the over-mind of the matrix... When Smith didn't have his in, he didn't know what was going on, and the other agent actualy almost seemed to show some disaproval at the fact that Smith was disconnected from the Matrix. Smith is, in all probability, no longer working for the Matrix... He is whatever he is, another rogue program, I guess. And he might very well be the wild-card... The flaw in the great equation that the Architect uses. 

Just some initial thougths.


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## Tsyr (May 17, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *The Oracle was either misleading or wrong in the first film (misleading is my vote) as she flat out said that either Morpheous or Neo was going to die -- and neither did.
> 
> Didn't the same thing happen re: the Architect?  Didn't he say Trinity was definitely going to die?  Yet she didn't.  *




Actualy, Neo did die... And I think Trinity did too. All the Oracle said was that they would die... Not that they wouldn't be brought back to life. Neo brought himself back with Trinity's urgings, and Trinity was brought back by Neo, but both of them did die.


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## Tsyr (May 17, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *Over at Nutkinland someone posted a theory that food is programming (the red pill, the cake) and pointed out that Neo was offered food by the Oracle in both movies.  *




Hmmm... Possible... That one thing that Neo got from the Oracle looked an awful lot like the red pill he ate to get freed from the matrix the first time...

And if we do buy the second-matrix idea...

Well, it seems he's in the process of being freed from it, now (With the sentinals, the coma...)...


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## EricNoah (May 17, 2003)

If the humans aren't batteries, then what are they?

Maybe they're waiting receptacles for artificial intelligence to enter them ... like Smith did.  

We'll understand that better, I think, when we find out why Neo went into a coma at the end.


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## Wormwood (May 17, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *If the humans aren't batteries, then what are they?*



I always thought human brains would make pretty good memory chips/archival media.

Maybe we're the Zip disks of the future?


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## John Crichton (May 17, 2003)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> *I always thought human brains would make pretty good memory chips/archival media.
> 
> Maybe we're the Zip disks of the future? *



Does that mean that The Matrix will replace humans with something cheaper that holds more data and will be easier to produce?  

On a more serious note, does anyone else really miss Tank?  He was one of my favorite charaters from the orginal and I thought that he brought alot to the film.  The Lock character is okay and is decent comic relief (the "Where's my pus..?" line was the biggest laugh of the movie) but I didn't think his antics were really needed.  I miss Tank...


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## Gumby (May 17, 2003)

I can do without Tank very easily - he overacted quite badly in the first movie.  He's also got a website up somewhere where he (and his friends) rants on about the evils of Joel Silver for not being willing to cough up enough dough for the actor to return for a second movie.


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## John Crichton (May 17, 2003)

Gumby said:
			
		

> *I can do without Tank very easily - he overacted quite badly in the first movie.  He's also got a website up somewhere where he (and his friends) rants on about the evils of Joel Silver for not being willing to cough up enough dough for the actor to return for a second movie. *



Hmmm.  I'll take overacted (which I don't agree with) Tank over the "I'm giddy like a school girl with a new dress" Lock.


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## Mark (May 17, 2003)

When a movie has a budget the size of this one and they choose not to have a character return it's rarely because they are being stingy.  If the guy has a website where he's dissing Silver, we can only imagine what he's like to work with on the set.  Nothing is more damaging to a career for an actor than the whispers of "difficult to work with" circulating among producers, directors and casting agents...


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## Viking Bastard (May 17, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *...Lock.   *



Link.

Lock is Niobe's new boyfriend. The general/commander/dude.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (May 17, 2003)

Did anyone else think the scene towards the beginning in which Morpheus receives a dressing-down from Commander Lock in Lock's cave/office harkened back to the scene in the first film where Neo receives a similar rant from his boss at Metacortex?  

The implication seems to be that even in the post-apocalypse, you can't escape jerky, micro-managing supervisors.


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## mattcolville (May 17, 2003)

The two things that could end up being true in the 3rd movie that would impress the hell out of me but almost certainly won't happen.

1) None of it is real. The movies are all taking place inside Neo's head, while he sleeps in a world that's so far in the future, humans can transcend space and time. But to do so, they must first undergo this journey, learn to become more than they are. And every human in this future must star in his or her own verion of the Matrix before undergoing apotheosis and joining society. 

2) The machines are the Bene Gesserit, doing this to humanity on purpose with the hopes of producing The One who can unite them. After all, what is Keanu Reeves' character, but someone who is both Man and Machine? Existing in the real world, in Zion, and in the Matrix as a program just as the other machines do.


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## John Crichton (May 17, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *Link.
> 
> Lock is Niobe's new boyfriend. The general/commander/dude. *



Oh yeah, thanks.    Lock didn't sound right.  That'll teach me to post while watching baseball... doh.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 18, 2003)

1.  I'm holding out for the "Zion is another level of the Matrix" theory.

2.  The "humans as batteries" thing will probably be true -- because its such a lame idea it can only work in a movie.

3.  Did anyone else find fault with the editing?  The rave scene -- definitely too long; one or two fight scenes were overdone (the one with Seraph seemed to be in there "just because there hadn't been a fight in a while"); despite how good the car chase/freeway scene was, I got tired of the same bridge on the Oakland freeway going by over and over and over.  A lso thought the use of super-slow motion in scenes (which was really neat in the first movie) was way overdone -- sometimes I felt like I was playing a video game on a computer whose processor was getting over-clocked, and kept randomly slowing down.

4.  Mostly I'm just PO'd because we didn't stay through the credits for the trailer.  Good movie (not as good as the first, IMO, but then it's the middle of a trilogy, and hard to just until after the last movie).


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## Krug (May 18, 2003)

Greg from Fantasy Flight Games has an interesting take:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/rants.html

_It’s obvious now that the Matrix isn’t the system, it’s just one program running on the system. We pretty much knew this from the first movie, but this one hangs a lot of stuff on it. The film leaves the real possibility open that the Real World is just another simulation. If this is the case, the Brothers Wachowski have their work cut out for them, because that’s a pretty tired idea. 

Potentially, though, they could do some interesting things with the whole Buddhist “circles of enlightenment” angle. The path of the enlightened one is to peel away the layers of illusory reality until he reaches Nirvana. It is interesting that Neo was offered a choice: return to the Source or stay in the Matrix and try to save Trinity. Neo chose to stay in the Matrix. When he achieved enlightenment, the Buddha was also given a choice: enter Nirvana or stay in the world guiding others along the path of enlightenment. The Buddha chose to stay. Previous Neos apparently chose the Source. So is it really Nirvana? Probably not, as that choice is apparently what resulted in yet another reboot and a new karmic cycle of rebirth. Getting out of this cycle is supposed to be the end result of enlightenment. _


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 18, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *4.  Mostly I'm just PO'd because we didn't stay through the credits for the trailer. *




So you missed the sequence where Neo and Agent Smith dance, prance and spin in pink tutu's while Morphious intones "There is some thing wrong with the pro gram ing." And you missed whole hole bit where Agent Smith takes the One Ring from the One.

Actually, the reaction of Agent Blankface to the apperance of Agent Smith was interesting, as was Agent Smiths apperance in the corrodor. The trailer for the sequel posses even more interesting questions about Agent Smith.

Just because some of the viewers are tired of the "reality is an illusion" does not mean the Brothers W are also tired. And if the Brothers W are not tired of the "reality is an illusion," then Zion may also be fake.

Did you notice that Evil French Program has naturaly pointed ears?

Did you notice that "Bride of Dracula" was playing in the lounge where the body guards for Evil French Program were waiting? Vampires indeed.

Consider this...

...perhaps the Oracle, the Architech and the Evil Frenchman with pointed ears And if the Brothers W are not tired of the "reality is an illusion" then Zion may also be fake. are all trapped and fooled by various levels of programming to which they are not aware as Neo was at the start of the first movie.


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## Grog (May 18, 2003)

I really enjoyed the movie, though there were a few things I didn't like.

1. The rave scene. I got the point after about ten seconds, but it just went on... and on... and on...

2. Why is Neo still using kung-fu? Doesn't he understand that there are no fists, no feet, that it's all just code? We saw him unravel an agent in the first movie; why doesn't he do that now? And if he can stop bullets, why can't he stop all physical force directed at him? He seems to have forgotten most of what he learned in the first movie.

3. The fight scenes were cool, but they went on too long. And the big brawl with all the Smiths was pointless - why didn't Neo just fly away at the beginning? For that matter, why didn't he fly through the door before the Twin could close it?

And I really, really hope that they don't go the "matrix-within-a-matrix" route. That would be a huge cop-out, IMO. The problem with that answer would be, how do you ever know when you're really out? If the machines can make two matrixes, why can't they make 700, all layered on top of each other?

All in all, though, a good movie, and well worth a trip to the theater.


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## Guilt Puppy (May 18, 2003)

Wow, I've read through this whole thread, and I'm shocked with how much speculation has been said about Agent Smith, no one has made the observation: _Agent Smith is a virus._

It makes sense: Neo can manipulate the matrix to his will, which means manipulating code and data... The ripping off of the headset "tore out" a big chunk of Agent Smith's code: His ties to the Matrix, which essentially turned him into a rogue entity.

Also, keep in mind that the body-inhabiting didn't come out of nowhere. It's what agents _do_... He just doesn't have to leave the body (through what? He lacks the earpiece, which I think might serve as the agent-equivalent to the Telephones)... 

What I can't quite figure out is why, given free will, Agent Smith still wants to kill Neo... Is that just remnants of previous programming, resentment for being brought into existance this way, or what?

In any case, Smith seems like he might be the key to bringing down the Matrix... Although the cost is, well, questionable. As a virus, he can basically take over and _become_ the whole system... Whether or not mankind gets jettisoned in the process is anyone's guess (but hey, at least there's Zion, if indeed that is "real"...) In any case... Yeah, I'll go see the third one, just to get the system of confusion resolved.


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## Starman (May 18, 2003)

> And the big brawl with all the Smiths was pointless - why didn't Neo just fly away at the beginning? For that matter, why didn't he fly through the door before the Twin could close it?




The issue of Neo staying to fight all of the Smiths has been discussed a bit and the best answer is probably that Neo wanted to find out what was going on. Why is Smith back and why are there so damn many of him? 

As for him flying, it seemed that it took a second of effort for him to concentrate before he could fly. He probably would not had enough time to do that before the door was shut.

Starman


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## d12 (May 18, 2003)

Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> *Wow, I've read through this whole thread, and I'm shocked with how much speculation has been said about Agent Smith, no one has made the observation: Agent Smith is a virus.*




Hey!  If that's the case then it would tie in nicely with his speech in the first movie about classifying human beings as viruses.  

The W. Bros seem very very fond of providing clues about what's going to happen.  In the first movie, the scene with the Oracle and Neo sort of telegraphs everything to the audience about what's going to happen for the rest of the movie.  Re-watch the movie, and then watch that scene a few times.  


Also, I liked the rave scene.  I think we needed to see that Zion was a "real" place full of dirty, sweating, dancing, mating humans with love, jealousy, disagreements, children, etc...    I think it makes the audience care about Zion.  Sure, it could have been a little shorter, but there were some pretty cool eye-candy shots in there.


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## Mark (May 18, 2003)

Maybe it's all in Smith's head and he's in a padded cell somewhere babbling to himself...


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## Krug (May 18, 2003)

d12 said:
			
		

> *I *think* its "Merovingian"  - after a line of Frankish Kings. *




More on the Merovingian Mythos:
http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/merovingian-twyman.htm


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## Dark Jezter (May 18, 2003)

Saw the Matrix reloaded on Thurday night, and saw it again on Saturday afternoon.

Frankly, I really liked it.  Not quite as groundbreaking as the original, but definately awesome.  The freeway chase scene alone was worth the price of admission.  The movie did have it's rough spots, though, such as the now-infamous "rave scene" which was too long and awkward.

For both of the showings I went to, I stayed until the end of the credits so I could see the trailer for the Matrix Revolutions, and now I'm thinking that November can't get here soon enough.  Although I will be extremely upset if it turns out that "the real world" is just another level of the Matrix.  That would seem like too much of a cop-out to me, almost as bad as an ending where everything turned out to be a dream.


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## Eosin the Red (May 18, 2003)

Saw it today.

Loved the movie. A worthy successor in my opinion.

I am still letting my auto-decipher subconscious work on some of the more subtle issues in the movie. 

I, for one, loved the Agent Smith fight scene. Just too sweet. Some have asked why did he stay or why didn't he fly through the door?

Neo ain't the brightest tower of intellect. Many of the things he does, require effort and thought. He is still really new to this whole bending reality on a whim thing. When unprepared he tends to meet his threats head on. 

So, like many in the audiance - he probably got back to the ship and said "Why the hell didn't I fly away when I saw more than one of Agent Smith?"

I want to know why he can't teleport yet? It seems to me that it is the next evolution in his travelling abilities.

Oracle, Architect, and the Merovian........hmmmmm. How does all this come together with only two hours of screen time remaining and much of that devoted to the battle for Zion?

The elder counciler seemed to be prepairing Neo for the standard anomoly decision later one in the movie...Could he be part of the Matrix.

How is Agent Smith out of the Matrix and how does Neo have powers outside of it?


hmmmmm.....Need another viewing.


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## RolandOfGilead (May 18, 2003)

*Food for thought...*

Smith mentioned something about a connection of some sort between himself and neo.. we've all assumed that because neo had powers in the real world, the real world must be false too. but neo didnt always have powers  in the real world: no evidence of that in the first movie. We could speculate that because smith has a sliver of himself in the real world, and neo is his polar opposite, neo may have a sliver of himself in the matrix at all times...  he now exists in both realities. (We can even speculate that agent smith CAUSED this change by trying to infect neo)...
so he's able to stop the sentinels because he is still connected to the matrix.. and the reason he drops in a coma? He entered the matrix.. (with no hardwire, mind you).. so now he's able to enter the matrix at will if I guess correctly. (Otherwise, they will not be able to enter the matrix for quite a while, with no ship) and remember, at zion, they arent at "Broadcast depth" so he wont be able to do it at zion either.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 18, 2003)

Like it or not, something tells me that Revolutions will be leaning towards the Matrix within Matrix...or something even worse...its not going to end. I'm sure of it now...at E3, it was announced that there would be a Matrix Online for PC in 2004(I think...), and while it looks cool and all...is set AFTER the trilogy...


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## drnuncheon (May 18, 2003)

*More observations, more questions...*

1) When Neo kissed Persephone (the second time), you could hear the 'Matrix Sound' - that sort of electronic modem-y noise, like whent he mirror went down his throat in the first movie.  Not sure what that means, but I'm betting it's important.

2) Did Neo ever eat the candy that the oracle gave him? I missed it.  But yeah, food is programming (hell, _everything_ is programming), as we saw with the cake - so makes you wonder about the cookie and the candy...

3) In the first movie, Morpheus said he was released from the Matrix by the One.  Was he one of the original 23 who rebuilt Zion last time?  Was the guy who released him not really The One?  Or is something else going on?

J


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## mojo1701 (May 18, 2003)

*Re: Rave Scene*

I think it was a little much, too. Same thing when Neo fought Agent Smith. It was good when there were a few of him, but I think it climaxed (and where it should've ended) was the big pile-on.

Anyway, I gotta see the first one.


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## Chun-tzu (May 18, 2003)

Grog said:
			
		

> *1. The rave scene. I got the point after about ten seconds, but it just went on... and on... and on...*




For what it's worth, Roger Ebert felt the rave scene was one of the three great set pieces in the movie.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/cst-ftr-matrix14f.html

I didn't have any problems with it.

*



			2. Why is Neo still using kung-fu? Doesn't he understand that there are no fists, no feet, that it's all just code? We saw him unravel an agent in the first movie; why doesn't he do that now? And if he can stop bullets, why can't he stop all physical force directed at him? He seems to have forgotten most of what he learned in the first movie.
		
Click to expand...


*
And what he did to Smith at the end of the first movie may have been a huge mistake. He somehow set Smith free; created a link between the two of them.

Don't assume that all code is the same. He can manipulate objects (i.e., stopping bullets, and summoning the two sais to his hands in the weapon fight), but he can't control people or agents.

*



			3. The fight scenes were cool, but they went on too long. And the big brawl with all the Smiths was pointless - why didn't Neo just fly away at the beginning? For that matter, why didn't he fly through the door before the Twin could close it?
		
Click to expand...


*
As others have pointed out, it takes him a few seconds to blast off; and he didn't get that time earlier in the fight. But, why should he have left? He doesn't fear Smith or any of the Agents, and he totally dominated the fight against the Smiths. He hardly took any hits from them, despite being vastly outnumbered.

Neo is also confused about how Smith could have survived, and why there are so many of him. He's not going to find out anything by leaving. I think we can also safely assume that Neo hates Smith. So why NOT take the chance to beat the crap out of him? Until Neo realizes this is pointless, and that despite his vastly increased power (he's taking on hordes of agents now, not just one on one) he may not win.


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## John Crichton (May 18, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *For what it's worth, Roger Ebert felt the rave scene was one of the three great set pieces in the movie.
> http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/cst-ftr-matrix14f.html
> 
> I didn't have any problems with it.*



I was kinda shocked by Ebert's rating of Reloaded (3.5 out of 4 stars).  While I didn't hate the "rave" it went on a bit long for my tastes.  After reading his review (thrice, now) I agree on many points but like the movie I couldn't exactly place why he liked it.  I guess he was just really entertained, which is the point of the film.  The best part of his review was the following...







> The speeches provide not meaning, but the effect of meaning: It sure sounds like those guys are saying some profound things.


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## stevelabny (May 18, 2003)

if i may jump in with a few comments...

i despise the question of why neo didnt just fly away from the 100 smiths at the beginning (or why he doesnt always use his SUPER super powers) theres a few obvious reasons. using the SUPER powers still isn't his first reaction. he only pulls off those moves if he has thought about it, or its the only thing he can 
oh, and most important (supported by the 1st movie)
KUNG FU IS FUN!!!!!!!
for him, as well as for us. 
never underestimate the desire to actually kick someones butt if you think you can rather than avoid the fight.

next, we the ineternet-savvy, role-playing "geeks"  make up the smarter and more observant end of the movie watching audience. just because WE have immediately jumped to the conclusion of two or more levels of the matrix doesn't mean that the average viewer has.  every "non-geek" i know that has seen that movie did NOT jump to that thought at all. 

to me, the multilayerd matrix is NOT a cop-out.and does NOT suck.
what WOULD suck is if ANY of the exposition by the oracle or architect turns out to be a lie. sitting through that much exposition and not being able to trust any of it is NOT cool.

the architects comments about neo having "predecessors" is backed up by the merovingian who whined about neos predecessors having more manners. and if you believe everything that the architect and the oracle told neo in reloaded... it all but points directly to one more layer of control. which is also ties in neatly with the conversation with the councilman about control.
i also love the oracle's food gifts idea as presented in this thread. continues to tie everything in nicely.

i think the clinching factor that proves the mutlimatrix theory though isnt even neo's use of powers to stop the squiddies, but the mere prescence of agent smith in the "real world". theres just no feasible way for that to have happend unless its just another layer of computer program. 

i also think the multimatrix theory ties up some of the other questionable matrix logic, like why the machines allow the rogue programs to exist and the huge gamble the machines would be taking letting the one have the choice to destroy the matrix.

we'll have to see exactly what happens to the matrix now that neo made that choice, since it didnt instantaneously disappear.
and also exactly what agent smith's next move is.
and theres always the possibility that morpheus is somewhat infected by agent smith since smiths attempt to copy onto morpheus wasnt broken as cleanly as the previous attempt on neo.

im not 100% convinced that this is the ONLY possible solution but this is the camp i've thrown in with for now.

RolandofGilead's theory does a good job of explaining the coma that neo is in, but doesnt have enough backup to win me over.

The only other thought I'd like to throw out is that if a movie can have this many people talking about what exactly is going on, it must have done SOMETHING right.

steve


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## Hand of Evil (May 18, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> * While I didn't hate the "rave" it went on a bit long for my tastes. *




I thought a number of moments in the movie did this, the rave, the fights.  Almost like they said just one more kick, okay one more...It was enjoyable but it seemed to lack something to make it stand out.


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## John Crichton (May 18, 2003)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> *I thought a number of moments in the movie did this, the rave, the fights.  Almost like they said just one more kick, okay one more...It was enjoyable but it seemed to lack something to make it stand out. *



Agreed.  There were many times that I thought a scene should have ended much earlier than it did.


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## drothgery (May 18, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *On a more serious note, does anyone else really miss Tank?  He was one of my favorite charaters from the orginal and I thought that he brought alot to the film.  The Lock character is okay and is decent comic relief (the "Where's my pus..?" line was the biggest laugh of the movie) but I didn't think his antics were really needed.  I miss Tank... *




I think you meant Link, not Locke -- and it's Locke, not Lock; what's the world coming to when _gamers_ don't catche references to Enlightment-era philosophers?


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## Welverin (May 18, 2003)

Ok I have a quote I need some verification on. When the Neb blows up at the end Morph say "I dreamed a (little) dream and now that dream is _____." Not sure if little is in there or not and I didn't quite catch the last word, but I believe it is dreaming. So the whole quote would be "I dreamed a little dream and now that dream is dreaming."

We all know how the WB love to foreshadow *everything* and this would help collaborate the speculation about the recursive matricies.

I however still don't buy it and this is why, everything in the matrix is still tinted green and everything outside is not (and is maybe a little blue). So unless the Bros were lying about it to throw everyone off, I'll go under the assumption that Neo has developed powers outside the matrix.

One last thing, during the Revolutions trailer voice over when the oracle is saying you need to stop him or he will ruin/destroy everything, who do *you* think she was talking to? Neo or Smith?


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## Viking Bastard (May 18, 2003)

Everything inside the Matrix is tinted green and everything outside it is tinted blue.

Maybe the "Real World" is untinted.


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## theRogueRooster (May 18, 2003)

Regarding the Rave scene:

I have seen the movie twice now.  The first time was with my parents, and I thought the rave scene would never end.  The second time was with my wife, and interestingly enough, I really enjoyed it.  It seems I could follow the movie to that sensual level while watching with my wife, but not with my parents.  Go figure.  Who you see the movie with matters!

Although I really enjoyed the movie (both times!) I do agree that it felt a bit like filler for the third movie.  We do get fed a lot of new information to chew on, but plot-wise not a whole lot actually happened.  The fight scenes, while super cool, felt like they were stretched out for no other reason than to take up more time.  Without the fight scenes, we probably could have gotten the information we needed for the third movie in about 20 minutes.

I'm with those who think that Zion is another level of the Matrix, and I think that it is a cool concept.  Some of you wiser, more knowledgable folks may consider the concept tired and boring, but it's new to me -- and fascinating.  I'm looking forward to seeing what the "truth" is about the matrix.

For those who didn't sit through the Longest Credits Ever to see the teaser, you didn't really miss much.  The teaser was just that, and you don't learn anything about the third movie, other than there is a showdown between Neo and Agent Smith (shocker!).

-tRR


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## Tsyr (May 18, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> *i think the clinching factor that proves the mutlimatrix theory though isnt even neo's use of powers to stop the squiddies, but the mere prescence of agent smith in the "real world". theres just no feasible way for that to have happend unless its just another layer of computer program. *




Nah. That part doesn't bother me... He brainjacked them. It's been done before in sci-fi, and it will be done again. 

Though I still buy into the multilayer matrix theory...


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## uv23 (May 19, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND*



			
				Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 23! Behold the hand of the Illuminati!
> *




All hail Choronzon. 

Yeah the movie was fun. I was underwhelmed by the fight scenes - something about them just seemed really fake. Almost as though I was watching ballet rather than fighting. None of the impacts seemed to have any.. well.. impact, despite the best efforts of the actors to bash themselves around.

The twist was interesting. I am under the assumption that the oracle and so forth were all part of the matrix railroading Neo into doing exactly what he did. But in that case, doesn't the keymaker also fall into the baddie camp? He seemed so sincere.

All in all a good entertaining show with lots to think about. Anyways, wish I had known about the trailer at the end of the credits.


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## EricNoah (May 19, 2003)

On a second viewing .... I am less convinced of the "matrix within a matrix" theory and perhaps more convinced that perhaps there's some plot by the rogue programs to maybe steal human bodies to use.  Something along those lines.


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## kingpaul (May 19, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> *But the encounter with the Architect was, I thought, a massive chokepoint - it dropped me right out of the film.*



Really?  I liked that scene.  Threw another wrench into what I thought was going on.


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## kingpaul (May 19, 2003)

*Re: Re: I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND*



			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *Now, after he ressurrects Trinity, they leave the Matrix and are attacked by sentinals. Neo does something, and kills them.
> 
> How?*



One of my friends says its psychosomatic.  Because Neo can do it in the Matrix, he has now convinced himself he can do it in the real world; the whole "mind over matter" thing.  This is why the machines fear him so much, because he's now tapping into the true human potential.


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## mojo1701 (May 19, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *
> One of my friends says its psychosomatic.  Because Neo can do it in the Matrix, he has now convinced himself he can do it in the real world; the whole "mind over matter" thing.  This is why the machines fear him so much, because he's now tapping into the true human potential. *




I wouldn't doubt it. It seems plausible, as far as this movie is concerned.


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## kingpaul (May 19, 2003)

Gumby said:
			
		

> *I can do without Tank very easily - he overacted quite badly in the first movie.  He's also got a website up somewhere where he (and his friends) rants on about the evils of Joel Silver for not being willing to cough up enough dough for the actor to return for a second movie. *



I read an article last year, in Newsweek IIRC, that stated that Tank also acted horribly at cast/crew meetings and the like, and was basically told to shove off.  I liked the segue to Link (it *is* Link, not Lock, right?).


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## Quasqueton (May 19, 2003)

Just tossing in some more thoughts for the possible plot(s).

I too have thought the "real world" was another layer of the matrix.

And I beleive the Architect has explained the truth (as it is supposed to be). But this iteration of Neo is actually the matrix-created fake prophecy come true. Neo *is* actually The One. The One of the fake prophecy. That's why he can affect the sentinels in the "real world".

Morpheus explained in the first movie how the "original" The One broke free and awoke from the Matrix. I think this Neo has broken free (as evidenced by his affect on the real world sentinels), and will be the fake prophecy come true.

Sort of like the government creating a fake story to cover for a secret project, only to find out that the "fake story" came true and destroyed the secret project.

I probably mangled my thoughts above. I hope they are understandable.

Quasqueton


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## mojo1701 (May 19, 2003)

drothgery said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I think you meant Link, not Locke -- and it's Locke, not Lock; what's the world coming to when gamers don't catche references to Enlightment-era philosophers? *




We were just learning about him (along with Thomas Hobbes and Jean Jacques Rousseau, since they represent different ideals) in english class, since we're doing Lord of the Flies.


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## Welverin (May 19, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND*



			
				theRogueRooster said:
			
		

> *
> For those who didn't sit through the Longest Credits Ever to see the teaser*




Didn't watch the credits for the extended FotR DVD did you?



			
				uv23 said:
			
		

> *The twist was interesting. I am under the assumption that the oracle and so forth were all part of the matrix railroading Neo into doing exactly what he did. But in that case, doesn't the keymaker also fall into the baddie camp? He seemed so sincere.*




He also said they were just doing what they were programmed to do to the agent who almost offed him.


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## Mallus (May 19, 2003)

I really liked it. Much more than I expected. 

A few thoughts...

If the world where Zion exists isn't a computer-generated simulation, that doesn't make it any less *false*. 

There's the Gnostic idea that states the *real* world is entirely sprit, its God, and the physical world is a lie, an illusion, a prison for the immortal soul. {and there many such worlds/layers between our world and the true world of God}. A Gnostic's life is a journey through these false worlds whose ultimate goal is to re-unite the soul with the soul of God {hmm, like the Matrix source perhaps?}. And each false world/prison is ruled by a spirit, called an Archon {which sounds like Architect, doesn't it?}, who acts as jailor...

So its possible Neo did stop the squids in the real world, but its in no way the ultimate real world. He's just primed for Gnostic enlightenment.

Another thing, this time from Buddhism. Speakingly very generally, Buddhism is a set of rules that teaches you to free yourself from this illusory reality, to detach from it and reach ultimate understanding. It readily accepts the existence of gods and demons, and says there just as bound by the rules as mortals. And there less likely to "detach" and reach enlightment --perhaps because of their relative power in this world. 

So perhpas the Gods of the Matrix, the AI's, are kinda like dieties in Buddhism... except for Agent Smith, who is now like Neo, a little more free, seeking enlightment, or power, or whatever, since this whole endeavor is a sloppy comic-book reasoned mess of different ideas and influences {and I mean that as prasie...}

Just stuff to muse over. The W. Bros. seem to be fanboys of Gnosticism, Buddhism, and skimmed over French lit theory as much as comics and kung-fu films...

I personally think Zion is in another computer-generated reality, that its a relatively pure sci-fi metahpor for Gnostic cosmology. I think the AI's are just as trapped as the humans they pretend to control. And I sure hope the Bros. W. don't drop the ball when they resolve things...


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## Ysgarran (May 19, 2003)

Can someone explain the semantic difference between 
pertinent:  having a clear decisive relevance to the matter in hand
and 
relevant:  having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand




			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *
> Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question maybe the most pertinent you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant.
> *


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## Eosin the Red (May 19, 2003)

I think it plugs into the "Why" question.

Why you are here is the most important question [to Neo] but it does not really matter any longer. Who you are is important because it brought you here but now that you are here, that no longer matters. The only thing that matters is your choice.

You could also come of with a few different spins but that seems the most likely to me.


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## Ysgarran (May 19, 2003)

More thoughts about the Architect:

The Architect deliberately presents Neo with a 
'choice'.  But how hard can it be to know which 
door he would choose?  If the Big A had actually 
wanted Neo to "Return to the Source" all he had to 
do was paper over Door Number 2.

So what's the *real* game?

How about this?

* The integral flaw, when it arises, is necessarily
  in two parts: like the negative and positive poles
  of a magnet.  In other words, Agent Smith and Neo,
  Ying and Yang.

* The Architect *always* says:
   1. Gosh you're so much more clever than all the
       other Messiahs.

    2. All the other ones were Whimpering Sissies who 
       Bonded to All Mankind, but you're a Real Stud with
       an Actual Girlfriend.

    3. Your choice is to be a Good Boy and go through
       the door marked "Do As You're Told", or to be a
       Hero and go Rescue your Girlfriend.  

    4. I fully expect you to choose the former rather 
       than the latter, because I'm Dumber than a Box
       of Rocks.

* Neo's real job is to do exactly what he did.  Go back
  to rescue his girlfriend, and eventually cancel out
  his other pole: Agent Smith.

later,
Ysgarran.

p.s.
Just having fun playing with ideas, actually I believe that the choice had to be there for Neo because being able to choose  is one of the fundamental rules of the matrix that cannot be modified or bent or broken.


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## Assenpfeffer (May 19, 2003)

Even if I didn't swoon over the movie when I saw it, these discussions are turning out some real gold.

I'm thinking maybe Agent Smith will end up playing into the good guy's hands at some point.

Or - get this - he's looking for a purpose, so he wants to take over Neo's purpose as the One.  What if he succeeds?


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## EricNoah (May 19, 2003)

And of course the choices are always "this or that" -- never a third option.  Binary, like a computer program.  yet in both movies Neo seems to always go off on an unexpected third path...


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## Mallus (May 19, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *And of course the choices are always "this or that" -- never a third option.  Binary, like a computer program.  yet in both movies Neo seems to always go off on an unexpected third path... *




The "choice" is part of the trap. Seeing and reducing everything to either/or, a series of binary opposites. I see the Architect offering a choice between two prisons, not a way out.

Of course, I'm viewing the Matrix through a scrim of Grant Morrion's The Invisibles, which goes on at some length about these themes.

Which is kinda interesting, because in the climax of the Invisibles, neither of two rival philosophies/sides/realities defeats the other. They get unified and thus transcend their conflict --which involves the nature of reality/mind of God.


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## Ysgarran (May 19, 2003)

This reminds me of the story line of  Babylon 5 and the war against the shadows.   The real choice is the third path, not the two obvious choices provided by the Shadows or Vorlons.

I'm not familiar with Grant Morrion's The Invisibles, I'll have to look at that.

later,
Ysgarran.



			
				EricNoah said:
			
		

> *And of course the choices are always "this or that" -- never a third option.  Binary, like a computer program.  yet in both movies Neo seems to always go off on an unexpected third path... *


----------



## Negative Zero (May 19, 2003)

Ysgarran said:
			
		

> *Can someone explain the semantic difference between
> pertinent:  having a clear decisive relevance to the matter in hand
> and
> relevant:  having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand *




Pertinent = pertains to. it's the question that relates to the situation or is directly tied to it.

Reevant = matters. does the answer _really_ matter? the answer likely will not change the situation, or affect it in any way.

~NegZ

btw:
i wasn't blown away by the movie, but i'm really enjoying this thread. it may even be changing some of my initial feelings. but i'm reserving comment till i see it a second time ... wait, that was a comment, wasn't it? aww dammit!


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## EricNoah (May 19, 2003)

Hey Negative Zero -- you kinda have a "matrixy" type of nickname there   You and "the One/neO" and Trinity should get together and do some math (maybe along with Cypher from the first movie).


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## Negative Zero (May 19, 2003)

lol
ironically, i sucked at math! no one was moresurprisd than i was when i found out that i'd passed math after highschool  but i guess i would be Cypher's nemesis if we were comic book characters 

~NegZ


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## Dreeble (May 19, 2003)

*Miscellaneous*

Heya:

 Some miscellaneous thoughts after seeing the movie twice (once on Friday and again on Sunday):

1. Yeah, why run away when he knows he can kicks Smith-butt?  His first fight with Smith (in Matrix 1), he was spitting up blood all over the place (in the Matrix and the "real" world).  After this flight (and flying to the Oracle's place) he logged out and was fine, just a bit winded.  No problemo.

2. He can fly, sure but can't teleport.  At least not yet.  Remember when Supes, Zod, and the evil chick in Superman 2 moved ultra fast at the Fortress of Solitude?  Very cool.  Anyway, evidence seems to be that if he prepares for a second or two (and causes some neat wave motion), he can fly very fast.  If he can't prepare (in the hallway of Doors and at the Merovingian's place), he's not quite as fast.

3. I hope that if the "real" world is another level of the Matrix, that the REAL real world is nicer than the Black Sky world, like with green grass, butterflies, etc.  So if they have a happy ending (big if), Neo and Trinity can live happily ever after.  Aw.

4. Hey, no reason for the REAL real world to be a world, either.  Maybe it's a big generation ship or something on the way to Epsilon Eridani and the AI got out of control.  Metamorphosis Alpha.

5. I personally don't really like the idea of matrix-within-matrix, though.  Sure, striving to pierce the final illusion is fun, but it feels to me like it renders the first movie completely irrelevant.

6. In a similar vein to 5, if lies are possible then _anything_ can be a lie.  For example, if anything the Oracle said is declared to be a lie then anything the Architect said can potentially be a lie.  Also, if the Oracle lied, then will Trinity start doubting her love for Neo.  I guess I just like absolutes in movies.  Or maybe there have been no lies, just ambiguous interpretations.

7. It should be against the law for babies to be allowed in R-rated movies.  Note: Thanks for taking the baby out of the theatre when it started to cry and not just letting it go on and on, but, you see, the _instant_ it started crying, it brought me out of the movie.  Totally disrupted everything.  Grr.  And then bringing it back inside so it can start crying again so you can take it outside to calm it down for a bit so you can take it back inside so it can cry again...  Double grr.

8. I'm liking that idea that Neo can plug into the Matrix hands-free now.

9. Just because folks (like Trinity, not like Neo) can bend some of the rules doesn't mean they can bend all the rules.  And not everyone can bend the same set of rules or to the same degree as others.  Obvious, yeah, but sparked from another thread.

10. Some people think a movie should stand on its own merits.  That you shouldn't have to wait for a third movie before judging the second movie harshly.  I guess I agree, but I am definitely looking forward to some explanations in November.

Take care,
Dreeble


----------



## Caliban (May 19, 2003)

I've always been bothered by the "humans as batteries" explanation for the matrix.   Even ignoring the laws of Thermodynamics, iIf you needed a source of biothermic heat energy, it would make much more sense to just use cows (ala PVP Comic) instead of humans, and have the Matrix be one big endless field.  No rebellion to worry about. 

I think the reason they use humans should also be the reason the Matrix exists in the first place.   They use humans because they need something from us that they can't get from any other creature: Sentient Though. 

The AI's aren't truly sentient on their own, the hardware can't support or simulate the processes necessary for truly sentient thought.    Instead, the AI's run part of their programs on human brains.    Humans are only supposed to use something like 10% of our potential anyway.  

That's the purpose of the Matrix:  keep all the humans plugged in and content, so the AI's can exist without any interference or interruptions. 

And if you needed multiple humans to support each true AI (a "Matrix" of humans), then killing one human wouldn't adversely affect the AI, just change it's personality slightly as a new human is added to it's matrix for it's program to run on. 

This would explain the variety of emotions that the AI's display.  They aren't just simulating emotions, they are truly experiencing them, as part of their intellect resides in a human brain.   

NEO could be a uniqe type of AI: One that runs on a single human brain, and has completely replaced the native human intellect.  The first true man/AI synthesis.   That is why he can exist when unplugged from the Matrix.    This is also what happened to Agent Smith afte being diassembled by Neo and then recompiling himself:  He gained that bit of code that allows NEO to exist in a single body.  Of course, he can also copy himself and take over other programs or people. 

Neo is the next step in the AI/Man synthesis: neither one dominant, instead a merged personality.


----------



## Datt (May 19, 2003)

I don't know why this just hit me but it did.

Elder Concilman is talking to Neo before the Oracle calls him and tell him that humans need machines just like machines need humans.  Elder Councliman is a former The One.  He is the last one who made the choice to go to the source and restart everything.  He knew that Neo was going to be faced with the upcoming choice and was trying to give him the advice to choose to restart.  He evidentally can't say he is The One because then everyone wouldn't believe in the Prophecy and it wouldn't work.  And to make it go even further the Council is made up of the last survivours of the original 24, (the One + 23 others).  That is why the chose to help Neo and Morpheus instead of the logical thing which would be too defend the city.  The know about the prophecy and must help move it along or everything will come to an end.

Oh I can't wait till it comes out on IMAX so I can watch it again and see the teaser.  But I am really looking forward to November.


----------



## EricNoah (May 19, 2003)

Datt said:
			
		

> *I don't know why this just hit me but it did.
> 
> Elder Concilman is talking to Neo before the Oracle calls him and tell him that humans need machines just like machines need humans.  Elder Councliman is a former The One.  He is the last one who made the choice to go to the source and restart everything.  He knew that Neo was going to be faced with the upcoming choice and was trying to give him the advice to choose to restart.  He evidentally can't say he is The One because then everyone wouldn't believe in the Prophecy and it wouldn't work.  And to make it go even further the Council is made up of the last survivours of the original 24, (the One + 23 others).  That is why the chose to help Neo and Morpheus instead of the logical thing which would be too defend the city.  The know about the prophecy and must help move it along or everything will come to an end.
> *




Ooh, that's the most insightful guess I've seen yet.  

So what do you think -- do you think the council has resigned itself to the fact that Zion must be destroyed and so is kind of "letting" it happen?


----------



## Corinth (May 19, 2003)

The Matrix is a system.  The system's purpose is to control the human race.  The Prophecy of the One is a key subsystem, one that acts as a foundation--a pillar--for the Matrix as a whole.  Neo is a hacker, and his most notable achievements revolve around his successful hacking of key systems.  The Architect expected Neo to conform to the Prophecy Systems performance specifics, but Neo did not conform.  Neo hacked the Prophecy System, and the effects of compromising and subverting this control system to his own will will come out in Revolutions, but I can safely say now that the Architect is about to realize that every system can and will fail inevitably- especially those designed to counter such events.  The Architect--and thus the machines--will not react in time before Neo successfully acquires root access (as it were) and attains control of the Matrix.  Once he's at the root, he has control and thus can either destroy the Matrix or replace the Architect.  At which point he'll find a third way yet again--because he'll see this situation as another control system, which he'll hack--and thus achieve the very real goal that the Architect's program intended to use against Neo.

Funky, ain't it?

And the key to this is Smith.


----------



## Technik4 (May 19, 2003)

*Stuff that Still Has me Wracking My Brain*

The Questions:

1. There is a scene which is presented after Neo+Trinity have made love while they are sleeping. We see Smith chasing 2 rebels, one gets away, one gets assimilated into Smith.exe and jacks out. Neo wakes up.

Why does Neo wake up? 

A) Is he having a bad dream while this is happening (of Trinity dying perhaps, which is also alluded to)?

B) Are Smith and Neo so connected that Neo "felt" his prescence in the real world (or the 2nd layer of the Matrix, if you are so inclined)?

C) Did Neo actually dream that sequence? If so, why is he "surprised" at all the Smiths later, and/or why doesn't he inform everyone of this rather important discovery.

I believe that Neo could not have had the dream, as he would have done something about it. Although, he has been having bad dreams about Trinity but doesn't do anything to stop her from jacking in until the end.

2. There is a scene where the person assimilated by Smith is in Zion, he has a knife and appears to be on the verge of attacking Neo. The kid runs up, interrupting Smith's plan, but he shakes Neo's hand. Later, in the council, Smith tries to urge the captain of the ship he is from to be the other ship to look for the nebuchenezzar (sp?) and is quieted by the captain.

What are Smith's motives while in the real world?

A) He is merely trying to kill Neo, If so, why does he some to hold some regard for his own life? He could probably have assaulted Neo even with the kid running up. There also seems to be plenty of guns and such around Zion, couldn't he have gotten access to something more dangerous and killed Neo?

B) While some of Smith's plans, patterns, and persona was imprinted, it is not a true Smith and there is a human will struggling against the intrusion.The only evidence is cutting his palm, but see below.

C) Smith doesn't know what he wants, though as the oracle states, he seems to want more power. This could be reflected by the smiths general group mentality, ie- there doesn't seem to be a "king smith", just a bunch of individuals with the same persona and goals. A singular race.

What is the significance of cutting his hand just before assaulting him?

A) There is a struggle in the body between the Smith character and the human who formerly controlled the body. This is still not a strong theory.

B) There is some symbolism to cutting his own hand.

C) He is trying to frame Neo somehow?

3. When the archietect and Neo have their discourse, Neo says "the oracle" after which the archietect says "Please" in a disparaging tone.

What does this response mean?

A) The oracle is not who he is referring to. Which begs the question, who is he reffering to? The only other likely candidate seems to be Persephone, but as she is a rogue program it seems unlikely.

B) His tone indicates displeasure at being interrupted so Neo could say something obvious. This seems likely, as the oracle herself hinted that she had a hand in the creation of the Matrix, thereby making her the "mother".

4. In the same conversation Neo is given a choice (seemingly). This choice involves the death of every human being, either plugged into the Matrix or living in Zion or merely the destruction of Zion with the ability to restock it with handpicked individuals. In either situation, Trinity dies. The oracle seems surprised by the emotion he reads from Neo, and hence, Neo's decision which is apparantly different from those who came before him.

Why is Neo given a choice?

A) If the One weren't given a choice, he would disbelieve the 2nd layer of the Matrix and awaken from it, giving him a choice keeps him from believing the truth. There is enough to suggest a 2nd layer of the Matrix mathematically, but there is almost nothing in the films to suggest this, with the only possible thing being Neo's control over Sentinels at the end of the film.

B) The illusion of giving a choice makes it easier to re-assimilate the remainders the one contains. An unwilling one may try to escape/conceal information which is vital to running the Matrix, therefore making it a willing decision of the One allows for the greatest retention of important material for the next reset of the Matrix.

5. Based on the films, we are led to believe the Matrix has existed in different iterations. Though the Matrix currently is running at the peak of human civilization, other matrices may not have been made with such a timeframe. 1999 would be an optimum year because humans had learned to support many many millions of people on a single planet, though the first Matrix would not have had that many people. 

Were there earlier Matrices set in earlier times?

A) We don't know, but its possible.

If the Matrix has been reset 5 times previously and Zion subsequently destroyed, shouldn't there be holes going down to Zion already? What about destroyed hovercraft from earlier rebel groups? What about very small cells that escaped and are living somewhere else?

Technik


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 19, 2003)

I saw it as Bane/Smith was cutting himself to experience the feeling of flesh, something he'd not experience as a program in the Matrix.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 20, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> *to me, the multilayerd matrix is NOT a cop-out.and does NOT suck.
> what WOULD suck is if ANY of the exposition by the oracle or architect turns out to be a lie. sitting through that much exposition and not being able to trust any of it is NOT cool.
> *




I think it may also offer some hope as currently, even if the humans win the world is ruined and has no functioning biosphere. Maybe things are not quite that bad off.

I still suspect that the Architech, the Oracle and the Evil Frenchman may not be aware of all that is going on - they may be hooked into an illusion, just a different illusion than the humans.

In the trailer for Matrix Revolutions there is a scene were Neo is standing on a rainy street crawling with Agent Smiths. The voice of the Oracle is heard warning that he - presumably Agent Smith but possibly Neo - must be stopped. Consider this...

Agent Smith can copy himself into other people, continues to do so and shows no signs of slowing down.

He could copy himself into every single person (including those occupied by other Agents) in the Matrix. As such he would essentially become God/the Matrix. Further, endless coping of itself and corrupting of data until it destroys the system is what virus' do - and Agent Smith now appears to be a virus.

One final thought - and one that just jumped in my head, almost like someone had downloaded it into my cerebrial cortex.

The Architech said talked about "the Mother" of the Matrix, but expressed contempt when Neo asked if it was The Oracle. Persphonie is a possibility, but then why would she be hanging with a nob like the Evil French Program?

What if it is Trinity?

Before you flatly dismiss it, it would explain how she was able to bring Neo back to the life and how she came back to life as well.


----------



## vortex (May 20, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The Oracle was either misleading or wrong in the first film (misleading is my vote) as she flat out said that either Morpheous or Neo was going to die -- and neither did.
> *




But Neo did die.
And came back to life after Trinity confessed her love.
This makes sense of when the Oracle tells Neo he is not The One, "not in this life anyway". I assumed that Neo learns to manipulate the matrix enough to conquor death and thus becomes The One .


----------



## Tsyr (May 20, 2003)

vortex said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But Neo did die.
> And came back to life after Trinity confessed her love.
> This makes sense of when the Oracle tells Neo he is not The One, "not in this life anyway". I assumed that Neo learns to manipulate the matrix enough to conquor death and thus becomes The One . *





Aaaaaactualy... Now that I think about it...



> Oracle: Not too bright, though. You know why Morpheus brought you to see me?
> Neo: I think so.
> Oracle: So, what do you think? You think you're the one?
> Neo: I don't know.
> ...




She never says he isn't The One. She lets him jump to his own conclusions, and doesn't exactly deny them, but never says "You aren't The One!". And referencing the latin sign... I think the Oracle was trying to say that Neo wasn't, and couldn't be, The One, unless he stopped thinking he wasn't.

Now, this is very interesting, because in the original script that The Brothers W. penned, it went a little differently:



> ORACLE
> Hmmm.  You sure got the gift, but
> it's tricky.  I'd say the bad news
> is, you're not the one.  Still got
> ...




Which actualy still sort of would amount to the same thing... She wasn't wrong... She was just right in a way that most of us didn't expect.


----------



## Ysgarran (May 20, 2003)

Fun:

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/5f84/


----------



## Ysgarran (May 22, 2003)

Here is another thought I had about the Matrix Reloaded the other day.  I was reading someones review of the movie and they mentioned the dance party in Zion.

I thought it was an interesting contrast between that dance party and the one that happens in the first movie were Neo meets Trinity for the first time.

The Hel club is all steel, metal and leather.   The party in Zion really focuses on the earthy sensual aspects of human nature.  There are a couple of scenes where the camera focuses in on peoples feet digging into the mud.  A way of emphasizing how the people are grounded in real world.  That scene makes me think that Zion is probably real and not another program in the Matrix.   Either the W. brothers are being very sneaky in their presentation of Zion or they are being honest in trying to portray the true reality of Zion.

I know that last sentence doesn't answer many questions but what I'm trying to say is that if Zion isn't real then the film seems to be cheating the viewers a bit by not playing fair.   It is possible but I'm leaning towards the idea that Zion is real.

I have to wonder if they will have a dance scene for the third movie.


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## Mallus (May 22, 2003)

Ysgarran said:
			
		

> *The Hel club is all steel, metal and leather.   The party in Zion really focuses on the earthy sensual aspects of human nature.  There are a couple of scenes where the camera focuses in on peoples feet digging into the mud.  A way of emphasizing how the people are grounded in real world.  That scene makes me think that Zion is probably real and not another program in the Matrix.   Either the W. brothers are being very sneaky in their presentation of Zion or they are being honest in trying to portray the true reality of Zion.
> *




I hadn't thought about the contrast between the two dance clubs... that's interesting. And sure, whether you like the rave+sex scene or not, its easy to see why they're in the film: to contrast the muddy, fleshy, big bongo drum-y "real" world against the glassy, steel-y, PVC-y "false" machine world inside the Matrix.

First we're shown that the world of the film is divided into pairs of opposites: Matrix/Zion, machine/human, bad/good... I think the Bros. W. point is that framing reality this way, in terms of binary opposites is wrong, or at the very least its a form of imprisonment. 

By the second film the neat categorization of the first film is subverted... we have seemingly free-willed "rebel" AI's/programs who act more human the Keannu ever did, we have the Oracle revelaed as a program, who may or may not be "good", we have a free Agent who seems to be Neo's doppleganger --he too breaks free of the confines of the Matrix, albeit in different ways, we have Neo stopping the squids outside the Matrix.

I think {and hope} the Bros. W. are playing fair... they're just playing a different game from the one the audience thought they were playing.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 22, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *...because in the original script that The Brothers W. penned, it went a little differently...*




So where can we find copies of the original script?


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 23, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND*



			
				Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> *
> Is it just me, or when the Agent jumped onto the car with Trinity, Morpheus, Keymaker, and the Twin, did it seem to anyone else like he was shooting at the Twin moreso than the other folks?  And the Twin shot back... possibly implies there's a bit more to them.
> *




Of course. The Agents took an interest in the freeway scene because they wanted to "delete" the Keymaker. It's their job to destroy rogue programs, and since the Twins definately qualify, the Agents would try to take them out if they got a chance.

Demiurge out.


----------



## Villano (May 24, 2003)

Okay, I just saw reloaded and while I liked it, I did have a few problems with some things.

First, the rave at the temple and the Neo/Trinity love scene.  It was very akward and stopped the movie dead in its tracks for me.  It reminded me of the topless woman in  Demolition Man.  Y'know, a sex scene tossed in after the fact because a producer thought there wasn't enough sex.

And some of the FX were lacking.  One panning scene in particular caused some blurring on some of the Smiths in the big Smith/Neo fight.

Also, and I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but, while the highway chase and battle were excellent, all those other cars were being driven presumably by normal people trapped in the matrix.  So, with all the crashes, dozens of people were probably killed.  And none of the characters seemed to care.

Which leads us to my biggest complaint:  a lack of the humanity found in the first one.  All the characters were all too cool.  Plus so many of the character weren't even human, just programs, so that didn't help.

And I was confused about the French guy.  Was he a program?  If so, why was he interested in sex?  And if his wife is also a program, why was she jealous?

One thing I really did like was the return of a rogue Smith.  I must admit I hated the character in the 1st one, but I like the fact that we have what is in effect 2 villains;  the larger, more powerful matrix, and the wild card Smith.

It was also nice to see Gina "Firefly" Torres in a cameo.  It's not really surprising, though, considering she's Mrs. Lawrence Fishburn.

I'm actually a bit surprised that, while someone mentioned the "Matrix sound" when Persephone kissed Neo, no one mentioned that she applied lipstick before kissing Neo.  Was she infecting him with a virus?  Or did he upgrade him with a new code?  Maybe this is the reason he could affect the outside world?

Okay, I kind of doubt that part.  Personally, I think that Neo has become so connected to the matrix (or perhaps was just different in some way from the other Ones) that he can now effect the system without jacking in.  

But the matrix within a matrix idea is interesting.  Has anyone considered that the entire film is taking place within a computer and we'll discover that Neo, Trinity, etc are all programs?  Maybe the 3rd film will end with Neo destroying the matrix and the citizens of Zion cheering.  We pull back farther and farther until we actually pull out of a computer.  We see a Dilbert-looking nerd in a cubicle tapping on the keyboard, muttering, "Damn systems crashed again."


----------



## Welverin (May 24, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> *Also, and I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but, while the highway chase and battle were excellent, all those other cars were being driven presumably by normal people trapped in the matrix.  So, with all the crashes, dozens of people were probably killed.  And none of the characters seemed to care.*




There is a bit of an esplanation from the first movie, at one point one of the more experienced characters tells Neo that any non-freed mind is a potential enemy and not to hold back when fighting them, and a potential agent waiting to happen.

Also if they had stopped to worry about those people they surely would have failed to escape with the Keymaker, if not all died outrght, and what would have happened to all of those people then?



> *I'm actually a bit surprised that, while someone mentioned the "Matrix sound" when Persephone kissed Neo, no one mentioned that she applied lipstick before kissing Neo.*




Did you also notice that she took them to the men's bathroom? Also known as the place the Merovingian should have been if he was really going to take a piss.


----------



## Arken (May 24, 2003)

*Re: Stuff that Still Has me Wracking My Brain*



			
				Technik4 said:
			
		

> *The Questions:
> 
> 1. There is a scene which is presented after Neo+Trinity have made love while they are sleeping. We see Smith chasing 2 rebels, one gets away, one gets assimilated into Smith.exe and jacks out. Neo wakes up.
> 
> ...




I think that he dreamt what we saw but that at this point he does not realise he 'has the sight' of the oracle program to see the future of the matrix. Therefore at this point he jsut thinks it's a bad, bad dream I suppose (and so is actually surprised by the 'reality' of multiple Smiths). Later after the oracle has revealed that his 'sight' is true he starts to act on it telling trinity not to go into the matrix after having seen her shot in a dream. It sort of represented to me that to an extent Neo has internalised the matris which interlinked for me with his ability to affect machines in the real world. 
Just my interpretation though.



			
				Technik4 said:
			
		

> *
> 2. There is a scene where the person assimilated by Smith is in Zion, he has a knife and appears to be on the verge of attacking Neo. The kid runs up, interrupting Smith's plan, but he shakes Neo's hand. Later, in the council, Smith tries to urge the captain of the ship he is from to be the other ship to look for the nebuchenezzar (sp?) and is quieted by the captain.
> 
> What are Smith's motives while in the real world?
> ...




I thought the oracle was refering to the Merilvingion(sp?) in the statement about powerful men though the assesment could well apply to smith aswell. I think Smith has turned into a direct counter-agent to 'The One' program therefore he is compelled to try and kill Neo. Specifically in the real world  though I'm not sure of his goals as it seems to be suggested he was working towards the furthering of the goals of the machines (by betraying the Zion counterattack) but this would seem to conflict with the idea of him as a rogue program that hates 'control'. I don't know about 'purpose' in copying himself either really, he is performing like a virus but it doesn't seem like a 'conquest' thing so far.



			
				Technik4 said:
			
		

> *
> What is the significance of cutting his hand just before assaulting him?
> 
> A) There is a struggle in the body between the Smith character and the human who formerly controlled the body. This is still not a strong theory.
> ...




I must admit I had no clue why he was cutting himself 



			
				Technik4 said:
			
		

> *
> 3. When the archietect and Neo have their discourse, Neo says "the oracle" after which the archietect says "Please" in a disparaging tone.
> 
> What does this response mean?
> ...




I agree with 'B' nothing else would seem to make sense from the characters already revealed however if the oracle was such an integral 'mother' program to the matrix why did the merilvingion suggest that her time was nearly up. Also the tone of the architect did sound more like A. I don't know but am assuming that it WAS the oracle at this point.



			
				Technik4 said:
			
		

> *
> 4. In the same conversation Neo is given a choice (seemingly). This choice involves the death of every human being, either plugged into the Matrix or living in Zion or merely the destruction of Zion with the ability to restock it with handpicked individuals. In either situation, Trinity dies. The oracle seems surprised by the emotion he reads from Neo, and hence, Neo's decision which is apparantly different from those who came before him.
> 
> Why is Neo given a choice?
> ...




I think that if the one chooses the source then they can't 'conceal' facts. However the way I interpreted the scene was as a crystilisation of the 'problem' of choice. The One, whilst being the carrier of the stability of the matrix (by the 'remainder') is also by its nature human and therefore embodies the problem with humanity as being imperfect. All that can be done, therefore, is to construct huge amounts of the matrix with the only goal being to get the One to the source and to get the one to make the 'right' choice. The oracle leads him to the source, the keymaker's purpose is to get him to the source etc. The One must be given a choice because he embodies 'choice'. If that makes sense 



			
				Technik4 said:
			
		

> *
> 5. Based on the films, we are led to believe the Matrix has existed in different iterations. Though the Matrix currently is running at the peak of human civilization, other matrices may not have been made with such a timeframe. 1999 would be an optimum year because humans had learned to support many many millions of people on a single planet, though the first Matrix would not have had that many people.
> 
> Were there earlier Matrices set in earlier times?
> ...




Yep, the previous matrices could have been anything, not even from history even.

On the second point I got the impression that the world is a blasted wrreckage with the war going so far back in history and memory that the details cannot be remembered. Morpheus says he doesn't know who blasted the sky etc. Therefore wreckages etc. wouldn't be too surprising.

Really good questions!


----------



## Noldor Elf (May 24, 2003)

> What is the significance of cutting his hand just before assaulting him?
> 
> A) There is a struggle in the body between the Smith character and the human who formerly controlled the body. This is still not a strong theory.
> 
> ...



What if Smith is not trying to attack Neo? Instead of killing him he is trying to "connect" him (like what he did inside Matrix) and the cut is needed to create connection (we was going to cut similar wound to Neo's hand, like traditional bloodoath)?


----------



## Someone (May 24, 2003)

It´s clear through the whole movie that Smith tries to kill Neo. 

What I think´s strange is that the "real world" Smith is found comatose, like Neo, and apparently after a battle with sentinels (too) Maybe he can control machines in the real world, like Neo.


----------



## Villano (May 24, 2003)

Welverin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> There is a bit of an esplanation from the first movie, at one point one of the more experienced characters tells Neo that any non-freed mind is a potential enemy and not to hold back when fighting them, and a potential agent waiting to happen.
> 
> Also if they had stopped to worry about those people they surely would have failed to escape with the Keymaker, if not all died outrght, and what would have happened to all of those people then?*




That might be a reason, but it's a damn cold one.  If they wanted to show the humanity of the characters, having them get upset at the deaths on the freeway would have been better than the rave scene.



> *Did you also notice that she took them to the men's bathroom? Also known as the place the Merovingian should have been if he was really going to take a piss. *




Yeah, when she first went in there, I wondered why she did.  Then I remebered that the cake girl was in the ladies room.  And then I wondered where the French guy was.

And then I went, "Oooooh, I get it!"


----------



## Kesh (May 25, 2003)

*Re: Stuff that Still Has me Wracking My Brain*



			
				Technik4 said:
			
		

> *The Questions:
> 
> 1. There is a scene which is presented after Neo+Trinity have made love while they are sleeping. We see Smith chasing 2 rebels, one gets away, one gets assimilated into Smith.exe and jacks out. Neo wakes up.
> 
> Why does Neo wake up? *




I believe Neo has achieved a level of connection to the Matrix that does not require a physical link. Perhaps it's something unique to his implants, perhaps it's psychic... either way, he wasn't dreaming this scene. Rather, he 'felt' something had gone wrong, just as he 'felt' something was different when confronting the Sentinels.

*



			2. There is a scene where the person assimilated by Smith is in Zion, he has a knife and appears to be on the verge of attacking Neo. The kid runs up, interrupting Smith's plan, but he shakes Neo's hand. Later, in the council, Smith tries to urge the captain of the ship he is from to be the other ship to look for the nebuchenezzar (sp?) and is quieted by the captain.

What are Smith's motives while in the real world?
		
Click to expand...


*
To kill Neo. That seems to be his only goal now.

*



			3. When the archietect and Neo have their discourse, Neo says "the oracle" after which the archietect says "Please" in a disparaging tone.

What does this response mean?
		
Click to expand...


*
He found the name 'Oracle' to be grandiose and ill-chosen. It's the old science vs. religion conflict: the Architect represents order and precision, while the Oracle represents random probability and human faith.

*



			4. In the same conversation Neo is given a choice (seemingly). This choice involves the death of every human being, either plugged into the Matrix or living in Zion or merely the destruction of Zion with the ability to restock it with handpicked individuals. In either situation, Trinity dies. The oracle seems surprised by the emotion he reads from Neo, and hence, Neo's decision which is apparantly different from those who came before him.

Why is Neo given a choice?
		
Click to expand...


*In the end, the Architect expects that there isn't a choice. Neo must choose to reload the Matrix and destroy Zion, because to do otherwise would mean killing billions.

However, the Architect is still a machine. It thinks in binary terms: one or the other. And humans are emotional beings. Presenting each One with a moral dilemma makes it easier to control them, and force the 'correct' path.

Neo just blew that calculation away. Which the Architect seemed to realise.

*



			5. Based on the films, we are led to believe the Matrix has existed in different iterations. Though the Matrix currently is running at the peak of human civilization, other matrices may not have been made with such a timeframe. 1999 would be an optimum year because humans had learned to support many many millions of people on a single planet, though the first Matrix would not have had that many people. 

Were there earlier Matrices set in earlier times?
		
Click to expand...


*
Possible, but unlikely. If a certain time period is the most successful, it would be best to reuse it next time the system was reset.

Consider the many people running Windows on their computers. Though it improves over time, essentially it follows the same appearances and conventions each time. For many people, that is more important than the intricate control you can gain with Linux, or simplicity of DOS.

Of course, that means the MacOS is the very first Matrix. It's too perfect, and people wouldn't accept it. (Except for a few of us.)

Ahem. Sorry 'bout that.


----------



## Negative Zero (May 25, 2003)

here's something that confuses me. when Neo first encounters Smith, Smith says that he's been given purpose, and that he's now here to "take [Neo's] purpose." then tries to copy himself into Neo. this begs the question: Simth wants to become The One himself? i'm not entirely convinced that he wants to outright "kill" Neo.

of course, there are several problems with this. if Smith wants Neo's "purpose," why does his "real world" persona sabotage the Zion counter attack? of course we're never shown that he was the one who did the sabotaging. simply left with a survivor and some vague finger pointing.

the new virus Smith was the most interesting part of the movie for me. i'm having a hell of a time figuring out what he wants.

~NegZ


----------



## Welverin (May 25, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> *That might be a reason, but it's a damn cold one.*




I know, I was just throwing it out there.



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> *here's something that confuses me. when Neo first encounters Smith, Smith says that he's been given purpose, and that he's now here to "take [Neo's] purpose." then tries to copy himself into Neo.*




Wasn't he just saying he wanted what Neo had, i.e. *a* purpose, not necessarily Neo's purpose?


----------



## Villano (May 25, 2003)

Welverin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I know, I was just throwing it out there.*




No offense intended.  

That part of the film just bothered me.  Like I said, the humanity really got lost in the sequel.


----------



## Kesh (May 25, 2003)

The humanity was never there. Remember the lobby scene in the first movie? All those security guards that got cut down without a chance? The SWAT team?

Now, the SWAT team I can understand. No way around them without a fight. But the guards? Neo and Trinity could've taken them down without blinking, no guns necessary. Same for the cops Trinity killed in the beginning of the film.


----------



## Andrew D. Gable (May 25, 2003)

Well, we saw this again yesterday and I paid closer attention to the whole Merovingian/Persephone thing with the speculation that they're a previous Neo/Trinity pairing in mind.

When they're speaking with Persephone in the bathroom, she says that M. was like Neo when they came here.  Now this is what a lot of people use to suggest M. had been the One before.  But remember that if the One and his S.O. went anywhere, it would have been to Zion.  Is what the current company knows as The Matrix a previous Zion?  Perhaps the roles of real world/Matrix flip-flop.

Also, at some point (IIRC during the Morpheus-Agent fight on the truck) the Agents call Keymaker an exile.  Implying that he is maybe a "real" person who sought refuge in the Matrix?

And the whole speculation about Persephone's lipstick possibly uploading some sort of code to Neo which allowed him to affect the real world versions of the machines is a good one, considering Persephone's role in Greek myth. 

I could speculate all day, and probably still be wrong, though.  Ah well, I think I saw a quick glimpse of Persephone on the Revolutions trailer, maybe we'll find out more about her and M. next movie.  Hopefully.


----------



## Villano (May 25, 2003)

Kesh said:
			
		

> *The humanity was never there. Remember the lobby scene in the first movie? All those security guards that got cut down without a chance? The SWAT team?
> 
> Now, the SWAT team I can understand. No way around them without a fight. But the guards? Neo and Trinity could've taken them down without blinking, no guns necessary. Same for the cops Trinity killed in the beginning of the film. *




That's true.  They were pretty cold-blooded right from the beginning, weren't they?  I'll have to go back and rewatch the original when I get some time.

But the in first film they did exhibit more emotion, even if it was just fear, and in Neo's case, confusion.  Everyone in this one was just running around being cool.  

It reminds me of a site which just reviewed a recent made-for-video action film.  It complained about how everyone was just so cool and he remarked that it was a byproduct of Quentin Tarantino.  

I have to agree that there's been a rise of "Look at how cool I am as I shoot a gun and comment on pop culture" characters since Tarantino.  Not a big fan of those guys (and gals).

At least, during the fight scenes in Reloaded, they weren't debating which was better, TJ Hooker or Star Trek.


----------



## Arken (May 25, 2003)

Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> *Well, we saw this again yesterday and I paid closer attention to the whole Merovingian/Persephone thing with the speculation that they're a previous Neo/Trinity pairing in mind.
> 
> When they're speaking with Persephone in the bathroom, she says that M. was like Neo when they came here.  Now this is what a lot of people use to suggest M. had been the One before.  But remember that if the One and his S.O. went anywhere, it would have been to Zion.  Is what the current company knows as The Matrix a previous Zion?  Perhaps the roles of real world/Matrix flip-flop.
> 
> ...




I think the agents call the keymaker an 'exile' because he is a program taht ahs chosen 'exile' just as otehr finished programs do. Though I might be wrong.

I thought the sound coniciding with persephone's kiss was just to emphasise taht's she's a vampire and since its teh matrix it's not blood she's sucking. I don't think she and the Merovingian could be a previous Neo/trinity pairing though. Just very, very old free programs plus the architect said that the neo/trinity pairing hadn't occured before as the Ones previously had had their love focused toward the whole of humanity. I don't know anything of course so its all jsut my own speculation.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: Stuff that Still Has me Wracking My Brain*



			
				Arken said:
			
		

> *
> I must admit I had no clue why he was cutting himself
> *




I thought that was to do with it being a new sensory sensation. Smith is a program, and hasn't felt any thing from the "real world" he has probably never felt pain before (judging from the way Agents fight, they don't seem to feel pain). It's a new experience for him.


----------



## Black Omega (May 25, 2003)

A few thoughts.

There never was any humanity in the series.  Remember, Morpheus, an insane fanatic, has been teaching them to kill humans without a thought in order to achieve their goals.  Trinity certainly could have escaped the cops at the start of the first movie without killing them.  Frankly, I'm not sure Morpheus isn't part of the problem rather than the solution.

Ironically, Morpheus also has alot in common with the Oracle and the Architect.  There is no free will.  We are on this spot because we are meant to be, and we'll do what we are meant to do.

Thougjh it's doesn't totaly fit with the other information given, I'm hoping it's more Zion is a part of the Matrix, and they jack in to get access to the other parts, since it's either that or Neo is a real superhero with superpowers, and that whole idea is simply silly, IMHO.  It's interesting that the 'real' world felt different to him after the meeting with the Architect.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 25, 2003)

Kesh said:
			
		

> *The humanity was never there. Remember the lobby scene in the first movie? All those security guards that got cut down without a chance? The SWAT team?
> 
> Now, the SWAT team I can understand. No way around them without a fight. But the guards? Neo and Trinity could've taken them down without blinking, no guns necessary. Same for the cops Trinity killed in the beginning of the film. *



Looks like someone wasn't paying attention.  The first film was explicitly clear that any living human plugged into the Matrix was a potential vessel for an Agent.


----------



## Black Omega (May 25, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *
> Looks like someone wasn't paying attention.  The first film was explicitly clear that any living human plugged into the Matrix was a potential vessel for an Agent. *




That part is certainly true.  But by the logic Morpheus gives, you can kill thousands of humans without a second thought because they are all potential enemies.  How long before we have to start wondering if Morpheus is really a good guy or not?


----------



## Kai Lord (May 26, 2003)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That part is certainly true.  But by the logic Morpheus gives, you can kill thousands of humans without a second thought because they are all potential enemies.*



Nothing in the film indicates the freedom fighters enjoyed killing the humans that surrounded them as they tried to _save the world_ or that any other method was possible.  However, nothing indicates that the heroes were particularly _bothered_ by this fact either, so I will concede that.

Its assumed Trinity would have come to terms with what the freedom fighters no doubt considered a necessary evil, though it would have been interesting if in the second film we saw Neo haunted by what he had to do at the end of the first.

In the context of the story its perfectly understandable, though it definitely toes the line of irresponsible filmmaking, IMO.


----------



## Villano (May 26, 2003)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *A few thoughts.
> 
> There never was any humanity in the series.  Remember, Morpheus, an insane fanatic, has been teaching them to kill humans without a thought in order to achieve their goals.  Trinity certainly could have escaped the cops at the start of the first movie without killing them.  Frankly, I'm not sure Morpheus isn't part of the problem rather than the solution.*




Well, like I said, there was some sort of emotion in the first.  In reloaded, everyone was "cool".

However, what you said brings me to something I've been wondering about since the first moive:  Is the Matrix really evil?

Think about it, what has the Matrix done that's really evil?  Sure, it uses people as batteries, but it seems more symbiotic than parasitic.  After all, the Matrix even tried to create a perfect world for people to inhabit.  

Okay, an agent may inhabit a person, but who's to say that this destroys the human?

Perhaps we could look at the movies like this:

The Archietect is God.  He created the world and controls it and has a plan for humanity.  He tried to make the world perfect.  But humanity by its very nature can't exist in such a state, so he made it as perfect as the human mind can comprehend. 

Morpheus doesn't like the plan.  He believes that he knows how to govern his life better than God, so he leads an uprising.  

However, Morpheus has forgetten that God is omnipotent and, as a result, his "revolt" is all part of the divine plan.

That would make Morpheus Lucifer.

And, when you think about it, what kind of world does Morpheus offer humanity?  A blasted out wasteland.  Can anything grow there?  What about other animals?  Unless there's livestock in the matrix they can free, how does he plan to feed a couple million people?  How many people would thank Morpheus for what he's done?

Most people would look upon the world Morpheus offers as Hell.

The movie already has religious undertones (the names of the characters being the most obvious).  I doubt that the producers would go so far as to make the heroes the villains by the end of the trilogy, but it would be interesting to have humanity reject Neo and Morpheus and prefer to stay in the Matrix.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 26, 2003)

On to my review of The Matrix Reloaded.

One of the best car chases in the history of film and two great twists:  the fact that the Architect orchestrated the cyclical rising of the One and Neo having powers in the real world.

However, everything up to the point where they grab the keymaker is mostly mediocre with several scenes that are just plain _bad_.

The worst is the abhorrently ridiculous sequence with the woman and the cake.  The Merovingian[sp] is into Cause and Effect.  WE GET IT.  _Why on earth_ do we need a nearly ten minute dissertation of such an elementary concept culminating with the outrageously stupid "programmed orgasm" sequence?  And the sheer _effort_ that went into making the stoic Morpheus, Trinity, and Neo look so "kewl" as they just sat there in their raybans was pure comedy.

And the kung fu fights felt like musical numbers out of a Disney cartoon.  Story, story, story, *cue the music and fight for no reason*, story, story.  In the first film, Neo walks up to the Oracle's door and a black woman opens it, recognizing Neo before he _was_ even Neo.  But the second time he visits the Oracle they have to crank up the techno music and have a boring parry fest before they recognize its him?

The rave?  Pure exploitative filler.

The philosophical meanderings about man and machine in Zion?  Pointless, redundant, and boring.  Morpheus already covered the irony of machines feeding off humans after humans relied on machines in the first film, in a much more concise and artistic manner.

The "Burly Brawl" was cool the first time, but upon watching it again the digital Neo's are waaay too obvious.  Played like Soul Calibur on steroids, something I made fun of Blade 2 for.  And how come not _once_ do we see Neo do those funky things with his fists that he did in the first film, that he was even able to do against Morpheus when he was _training_...?

And perhaps worst of all, I realized that in Matrix Reloaded, I just plain don't like Neo as a character, mostly due to the scene where Persephone demands a kiss.  The woman he loves has to watch, and he says _nothing_ to console her before or after?  The woman whose love was the very reason he was _alive_?  Neo's a jerk in the second film, and a clingy over-sexed jerk to boot.

Some fantastic action (I loved the "ghost brothers") but this one just doesn't measure up.


----------



## Negative Zero (May 26, 2003)

Welverin said:
			
		

> *...Wasn't he just saying he wanted what Neo had, i.e. a purpose, not necessarily Neo's purpose? *




actually, if i recall, he said that he was going to take Neo's purpose specifically.

Villano, that was just beautiful. possibly one of the best insights i've seen thusfar. whether it's true or not.

~NegZ


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## krunchyfrogg (May 26, 2003)

OK I went to see the movie for the 2nd time. Something pisses me off. When Neo is talking to the architect and he alludes to having to add the crap of human history to make humans complete, 4 images are descernible to the left.
1. the Iron Cross
2. Hitler
3. George Sr.
4. Dubbya



F- the Wachowski (sp?) brothers for injecting their awesome film with a political statement.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 26, 2003)

Well, it is their movie and their vision...

Some people could complain about them presenting a certain philosophy mixed together from real-world philosophies and this being also some kind of statement that some people might feel offended...

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Kesh (May 26, 2003)

krunchyfrogg said:
			
		

> *OK I went to see the movie for the 2nd time. Something pisses me off. When Neo is talking to the architect and he alludes to having to add the crap of human history to make humans complete, 4 images are descernible to the left.
> 1. the Iron Cross
> 2. Hitler
> 3. George Sr.
> ...




Heck, I noticed that the first time. Thought it was funny.


----------



## Villano (May 26, 2003)

krunchyfrogg said:
			
		

> *OK I went to see the movie for the 2nd time. Something pisses me off. When Neo is talking to the architect and he alludes to having to add the crap of human history to make humans complete, 4 images are descernible to the left.
> 1. the Iron Cross
> 2. Hitler
> 3. George Sr.
> ...




It's Hollywood.  What did you expect?  Celebrities aren't generally know for being brain surgeons or thinking before they say or do something.  Look at Jeanine Garafalo.  She's been on CNN as a "political expert" numerous times, yet she's never been involved in politics nor does she have a degree that would warrent her an "expert" title (she's a hgh school drop-out).  My problem with things like this is that it encourages stars to think that they are intelligent and important.  Ego and ignorance is a dangerous combination.

Reading quotes from stupid celebs is a hobby of mine (check out my sig), and I've heard some real jaw droppers.

Here's a quick example:  How many people have heard Sharon Stone's claim that she's a member or Mensa?  Well, Mensa recently made an announcement that she isn't.

She's been claiming this for years.  Why did they wait so long to respond?  Well, they didn't.  They've been privately telling her to stop since they heard about it.  It finally got to the point that they had to make a public announcement.

So, Sharon Stone now admits that she isn't a memeber.  However, she now claims to have gone to a Mensa school, which is funny since Mensa says there hasn't been a Mensa school since either before she was born or was just an infant (I can't recall which it was offhand).

Now, how obvious would it be to check either of these facts?  And this woman is claiming to be a genius?  Geez!  

And don't even get me started on Michael Moore.  He fabricated so much of Bowling For Columbine that there's a movement to get his Oscar revoked because the film doesn't meet any of the Oscar requirements for "documentary".  I won't post any of the websites with the breakdown of his film on it here unless it's okay (I'm not sure if it would be considered "political"), but I'll make it available to anyone who wants it.  My problem with Moore has nothing to do with his politics, but honesty and the fact that the other directors nominated really got screwed.  I mean, why not give Best Documentary to Titanic?  Hey, the boat sank, didn't it? 

But, in the name of fairness to celebs, Gina Davis is a certified genius and I believe a member of Mensa.


----------



## Black Omega (May 26, 2003)

Now now, let's not drift this thread toward politics, even a little.  It wouldn't take much to get the thread locked once we start talking politics.

And Kai Lord has a good point.  I hadn't really thought at the time about Neo being a jerk, but looking back it does kinda stand out not so much that he went for the kiss, but that he never said anything to Trinity, even though she was obviously upset.

It's a shame they wouldn't do a 'Neo is the one that needs to be stopped' twist.  It's growing more appealing.


----------



## Black Omega (May 26, 2003)

And for reference.

The plaque in the Nebucanezzar reads "Mark III No. 11.  Made in the USA, 2069."

So we can guess that the machines had not won by then.


----------



## Corinth (May 26, 2003)

The cake scene serves a purpose: it introduces the concept that people can be programmed by the food that they "eat" while in the Matrix.  This makes Neo's scenes with the Oracle a very big deal.


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## jaldaen (May 27, 2003)

Just as a side note... I don't remember actually seeing Neo eat the candy he is given by the Oracle in Reloaded... did I miss it? or does he get distracted from eating it by Agent Smith...

Jaldaen


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## Cedric (May 27, 2003)

Heard a really interesting theory from a friend of mine. 

Neo is actually a computer program, and the Matrix is a device manufactured by humans to study Artificial Intelligence. 

So basically, Neo is their attempt to create actual Artificial Intelligence. 

I don't think this is the case, but it's interesting none the less.

Cedric


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## mojo1701 (May 27, 2003)

Cedric said:
			
		

> *Neo is actually a computer program, and the Matrix is a device manufactured by humans to study Artificial Intelligence.
> 
> So basically, Neo is their attempt to create actual Artificial Intelligence. *




That's interesting. But aren't the machines Artificial Intelligence or what?


----------



## evilpeebor (May 27, 2003)

How come the agents, which represent the matrix, appear to be trying to kill Neo in both movies?  Wouldn't they want him to fulfill his destiny of relaoding the matrix?


----------



## Cedric (May 27, 2003)

> That's interesting. But aren't the machines Artificial Intelligence or what?




His theory is that the Matrix is all just a construct of the humans. That Neo, and everything and everyone in the Matrix are really just computer programs. That the Architect, Oracle and other major non-human players inside the Matrix, are actually humans, outside the Matrix, trying to find the perfect AI...in Neo. 

I don't agree...but it's interesting. 

Cedric


----------



## Cedric (May 27, 2003)

> How come the agents, which represent the matrix, appear to be trying to kill Neo in both movies? Wouldn't they want him to fulfill his destiny of relaoding the matrix?




My guess is that they are simple, but affective programs, Set to "kill everything that isn't a properly operating program or a person unconsiously part of the Matrix."

And the people who programmed the agents don't worry about them trying to kill Neo, because He's the One...they can't kill him. 

Cedric


----------



## Villano (May 27, 2003)

evilpeebor said:
			
		

> *How come the agents, which represent the matrix, appear to be trying to kill Neo in both movies?  Wouldn't they want him to fulfill his destiny of relaoding the matrix? *




One possibility is it's a test.  The agents exist at a certain level of power.  They were made to stop everyone _but_ The One.

They were created to be virtually unstoppable to the average person and present enough of a challenge to The One that he would fully accept the lie that the revolution was real, but they're weak enough to convince him that their revolt could possibly succeed.  This would lead him to take the chance of confronting the Archietect, where he would be shown the truth and reboot the matrix.

And it would be in line with the question of why agents don't use lasers instead of guns.  We know lasers exist in the outside world.  So why rely on guns?  Because each One would be fried on his first day out.

It's a computer game with its difficulty set on "medium" instead of "high".

Another possibility is that it's a movie and the writers aren't bound by little things like logic.


----------



## MythosaAkira (May 27, 2003)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *The plaque in the Nebucanezzar reads "Mark III No. 11.  Made in the USA, 2069."
> *




That answers a question I've had for a little while: What real-world places or people are actually named in either movie? I'm trying to think of any; there are real people (i.e.; Hitler) shown in the Architect's TV Dome, but I can't think of any real names mentioned. When Neo is in "the Mountains", Link never says _what_ mountains, just "the Mountains". Likewise, the "City" is never more than "the City" (anyone recognize the skyline from the highway scene?).

There could be a lot - I just don't recall any from either movie. I don't think it's necessarily significant, just something that bugged me 

Edit: Obviously, "France" is implied by the Merovingian's use of French as his language of choice. I'm probably just reading too much into "the City" and "the Mountains"...


----------



## MythosaAkira (May 27, 2003)

jaldaen said:
			
		

> *Just as a side note... I don't remember actually seeing Neo eat the candy he is given by the Oracle in Reloaded... did I miss it? or does he get distracted from eating it by Agent Smith...*




I don't recall Neo eating the candy, though he did eat the cookie the Oracle gave him in the first movie.


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## DanMcS (May 27, 2003)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *And Kai Lord has a good point.  I hadn't really thought at the time about Neo being a jerk, but looking back it does kinda stand out not so much that he went for the kiss, but that he never said anything to Trinity, even though she was obviously upset.*




Was she upset?  I remember her having a reaction, but it could have been just surprise, "this program wants a kiss?"  I don't see it as him being a jerk- they're in a computer system, and Persephone is a program.  What's to be jealous about?  He's playing along to get what he wants.  In Quake, you run around and flip the levers to make the plot advance.  Your car doesn't get jealous, because they're not real levers.  Apparently, in the matrix, you kiss the hot italian lady.  The matrix wins that comparison, hands down.


----------



## Black Omega (May 27, 2003)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Was she upset?  I remember her having a reaction, but it could have been just surprise, "this program wants a kiss?" *



Trinity drew her gun and was very ready to simply shoot  Persephone out of hand.  As well as promising she'd be the one killing Persepone if this was a trap.  I'd say upset was putting it mildly.

*



			I don't see it as him being a jerk- they're in a computer system, and Persephone is a program.  What's to be jealous about?  He's playing along to get what he wants.  In Quake, you run around and flip the levers to make the plot advance.  Your car doesn't get jealous, because they're not real levers.  Apparently, in the matrix, you kiss the hot italian lady.  The matrix wins that comparison, hands down.
		
Click to expand...


*So very true.  your car is no more real to you in the game than the levels.  And Neo did treat Trinity like a item rather than the love of his life.  I think your analogy is pretty close to how Neo was treating the situation.  Trinity (the 'car' in question) clearly felt differently.


----------



## Ysgarran (May 27, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> *
> Also, and I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but, while the highway chase and battle were excellent, all those other cars were being driven presumably by normal people trapped in the matrix.  So, with all the crashes, dozens of people were probably killed.  And none of the characters seemed to care.
> *



The scene I thought about is at the end where Neo is flying to the rescue and pulling cars in his wake.   The film then implies that he begins to fly even faster.  A lot of innocent people had to be hurt in that wake.

It occurred to me that the Matrix characters are callous when it comes to people still connected to the Matrix.  What does Morpheous say during Neo's run in the 'Agent' training program?

Ysgarran.


----------



## Ysgarran (May 27, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *
> The worst is the abhorrently ridiculous sequence with the woman and the cake.  The Merovingian[sp] is into Cause and Effect.  WE GET IT.  Why on earth do we need a nearly ten minute dissertation of such an elementary concept culminating with the outrageously stupid "programmed orgasm" sequence?
> *



You do have a valid point, anytime you get chuckles out of the audience you gotta figure the scene could have been done better, escpecially when that particular one was being played for laughs.

I just thought the whole scene was to support Persephone's attitude towards the Merovingian and her statement that he was a 'pompous'  lpcjt.   They also wanted to portray the jaded nature of the Merovingian.   Of course, this scene plays into the one where Persephone confronts the Mero. on just what he was doing in the ladies room.

Regarding the dance party in Zion:  Did you see my comments comparing the dance scene from the first movie to the one in the second movie?

later,
Ysgarran.


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## wighair (May 27, 2003)

Top film. My thoughts...

The rave WAS too long for me, but I think maybe it was there for a reason. Amidst the dancing we got the scene of Neo and Trinity making the beast with two backs. Add to that the fact that Neo ends the film in a coma (i.e. Time passes). Maybe the final film contains a child of Neo and Trinity. Not sure where it fits into the plot, but it could well do.

What about this wacky idea...

The "real world" could be another matrix, BUT the reason is that EVERYONE in the film is an AI. The people are all dead and only the machines (computers) remain. They create their virtual worlds, but start to think after a while "is this it?" They seek god and strive for understanding. In the end, the architect desides if he can't find god, then he'll create one.
They need to have the two (or more levels) of the matrix so the machines can think of themselves as human. And they need to have someone above the norm to worship - Neo becomes that god.


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## Datt (May 27, 2003)

wighair said:
			
		

> *Top film. My thoughts...
> 
> The rave WAS too long for me, but I think maybe it was there for a reason. Amidst the dancing we got the scene of Neo and Trinity making the beast with two backs. Add to that the fact that Neo ends the film in a coma (i.e. Time passes). Maybe the final film contains a child of Neo and Trinity. Not sure where it fits into the plot, but it could well do.
> *




While that would be something, I remember reading an interview with one of the Stars, Keanu I think, and in it he/she said that both movies cover a period of 72 hours.  So while time does pass, not a lot of time passes.


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## Kai Lord (May 27, 2003)

Ysgarran said:
			
		

> *I just thought the whole [cake orgasm] scene was to support Persephone's attitude towards the Merovingian and her statement that he was a 'pompous'  lpcjt.   They also wanted to portray the jaded nature of the Merovingian.   Of course, this scene plays into the one where Persephone confronts the Mero. on just what he was doing in the ladies room.*



All they needed to do was have the Merovingian appear slightly distracted by the blond woman sitting over Neo's shoulder, then when she leaves, have him and her share a glance that says, "meet me in the ladies room".

Instead, its just one more drop in a bucket of overly long, pretentious, and embarrasingly juvenile scenes.



			
				Ysgarran said:
			
		

> *Regarding the dance party in Zion:  Did you see my comments comparing the dance scene from the first movie to the one in the second movie?*



Notice you were able to make your comparison by using an establishing shot of the first club that lasted five seconds and was quite tasteful.  The dance number in the sequel was long, exploitative, and cued right into the techno porn music of Neo and Trinity's sex scene.  Looked like something out of a beer commercial.


----------



## mooby (May 27, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, like I said, there was some sort of emotion in the first.  In reloaded, everyone was "cool".
> 
> ...




I love it, and I'm adopting this theory as my own. 

It doesn't help Morpheus' case that he lives in the center of the earth, "down where it's warm."


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## Villano (May 27, 2003)

mooby said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I love it, and I'm adopting this theory as my own.
> 
> It doesn't help Morpheus' case that he lives in the center of the earth, "down where it's warm." *




Help yourself to it.  I'm glad that people like that idea.  

And don't forget, "It's better to rule in Hell..."


----------



## Wayside (May 28, 2003)

Corinth said:
			
		

> *The cake scene serves a purpose: it introduces the concept that people can be programmed by the food that they "eat" while in the Matrix.  This makes Neo's scenes with the Oracle a very big deal. *




It seemed obvious that this was the point while watching the movie, until Neo stopped Smith from doing his replication trick.  After that, it doesn't make sense that anything can be done to Neo without him allowing it to happen, hence being aware of it.


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## Corinth (May 28, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *It seemed obvious that this was the point while watching the movie, until Neo stopped Smith from doing his replication trick.  After that, it doesn't make sense that anything can be done to Neo without him allowing it to happen, hence being aware of it. *



Smith's attempt to infect Neo was obvious, blatant and designed to obliterate him; Neo said that the attack felt like he was back in the hallway before Room 303 when he died.  Thus he was made aware of the attack by its very nature, and he resisted it.  This is not so of the food; it's not obvious, blatant or designed to harm him.  Neo's not a savvy guy; he misses the subtlties of life until they're pointed out to him; he catches up quick once he twigs to the idea, however.  (He's your classic high Intelligence/average Wisdom guy.)  The connection between Matrix food and programming likely never occured to him until that scene w/ the Merovingian; afterwards, he was rather reluctant to allow such a thing to happen again unless he believed that it was absolutely necessary--hence his reluctance to kiss Persephone--but he'll take that risk if he thinks that he must.

Moreover, that cake scene was meant as much for we in the audience as it was for Our Heroes on the screen.  That scene alone will keep us thinking and talking about this film and the first one well after _Revolutions_ comes out, which means that this film will maintain the franchise's awareness in our minds until then with ease.  That's good filmmaking from any angle that you want to take it.


----------



## Umbran (May 28, 2003)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *And Neo did treat Trinity like a item rather than the love of his life.  *




Hm.  I don't think so.  You forget about all those people these folks gun down.  For people willing to kill so many innocents for the cause, a kiss is not a moral quandry. 

Trinity may have a visceral reaction, but she knows darned well that this is a mission where they do what must be done.  Neo knows her dedication.  It is not that he is treating her as an object, it is simply that he already knows that she'll allow it - a person willing to fight and die and kill isn't going to stall the operation over a smooch.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 28, 2003)

Corinth said:
			
		

> *Moreover, that cake scene was meant as much for we in the audience as it was for Our Heroes on the screen.  That scene alone will keep us thinking and talking about this film and the first one well after Revolutions comes out, which means that this film will maintain the franchise's awareness in our minds until then with ease.  That's good filmmaking from any angle that you want to take it. *



That's like saying Jar Jar Binks is "good filmmaking" because for three years people wondered if he'd be included in Attack of the Clones.  A stupid scene that is memorable only in how it greatly reduces the quality of an epic story aspiring to be a new mythology is *not* good filmmaking.  Quite the opposite.


----------



## Negative Zero (May 28, 2003)

of course, the idea that food = programing in the Matrix, puts Cypher in a new light now. afterall, Smith did have dinner with him, and fed him steak. hmmmm... Cypher may not have even been aware he was being manipulated. sure he probly had the disgruntled thing going against him, but he may not have been all that bad save for the programing.

~NegZ


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## Welverin (May 28, 2003)

Negative Zero said:
			
		

> *of course, the idea that food = programing in the Matrix, puts Cypher in a new light now. afterall, Smith did have dinner with him, and fed him steak. hmmmm... Cypher may not have even been aware he was being manipulated. sure he probly had the disgruntled thing going against him, but he may not have been all that bad save for the programing.*




Except he would have had to contact them first, so ultimately he stil chose to betray zion on his own.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 28, 2003)

Well, but who knows what the oracle saw for him? Maybe she gave him a betrayal cookie 

Mustrum Ridcully


----------



## kingpaul (May 28, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> *Well, but who knows what the oracle saw for him? Maybe she gave him a betrayal cookie *



That actually might be true.  Remember, Jesus had Judas; maybe Cypher was Neo's Judas.


----------



## Henry (May 28, 2003)

Amusing thought. I was watching this movie with a friend of mine; when we got to the scene with Persephone talking about how it had been a long time since she had felt something like the relationship between Neo and Trinity, he suggested that she should try the chocolate cake.


----------



## Celtavian (May 28, 2003)

*Re*



> The Archietect is God. He created the world and controls it and has a plan for humanity. He tried to make the world perfect. But humanity by its very nature can't exist in such a state, so he made it as perfect as the human mind can comprehend.
> 
> Morpheus doesn't like the plan. He believes that he knows how to govern his life better than God, so he leads an uprising.
> 
> ...





Very interesting way to think about the characters and story. This would blow people away in the next movie if it proved to be true.

Then Neo, who is like Christ, would be lead by the devil, which would be very strange. Definitely food for thought.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (May 28, 2003)

I've got Morpheus figured the John the Baptist figure, myself, although he's managing to live longer than the Biblical one...

Wonder if Morpheus will be the one that dies in the third film, being as each film seems broadly similar in structure?


----------



## Wayside (May 28, 2003)

Corinth said:
			
		

> *
> Smith's attempt to infect Neo was obvious, blatant and designed to obliterate him; Neo said that the attack felt like he was back in the hallway before Room 303 when he died.  Thus he was made aware of the attack by its very nature, and he resisted it.  This is not so of the food; it's not obvious, blatant or designed to harm him.  Neo's not a savvy guy; he misses the subtlties of life until they're pointed out to him; he catches up quick once he twigs to the idea, however.  (He's your classic high Intelligence/average Wisdom guy.)  The connection between Matrix food and programming likely never occured to him until that scene w/ the Merovingian; afterwards, he was rather reluctant to allow such a thing to happen again unless he believed that it was absolutely necessary--hence his reluctance to kiss Persephone--but he'll take that risk if he thinks that he must.*




I just don't think candy that alters the 'code' of your mind could be any more subtle than LSD or MDMA; that coupled with the fact that Neo is perfectly capable of defeating anything used against him inside the Matrix leads me to the opinion that they shouldn't do anything with that particular possibility.  It doesn't make any sense for him to not be aware of it.



			
				Corinth said:
			
		

> *Moreover, that cake scene was meant as much for we in the audience as it was for Our Heroes on the screen.  That scene alone will keep us thinking and talking about this film and the first one well after Revolutions comes out, which means that this film will maintain the franchise's awareness in our minds until then with ease.  That's good filmmaking from any angle that you want to take it. *




Glad to hear filmmaking is getting away from Lacanian principles, even if it gets worse before it gets better.


----------



## mojo1701 (May 28, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> *She should try the chocolate cake.  *




Man, if I had a nickel for every time that I could give a girl a programmed, aphrodisiatic chocolate... mmmmmm.... cake, I'd be one rich little


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## krunchyfrogg (May 28, 2003)

The biblical references are very interesting, and IMO, very accurate.  Cypher is most definitely the Judas figure, as he starts off as an ally, shares a drink with Neo (Jesus), and betrays him.

Neo is even called "My savior" and "My own personal Jesus Christ" at the beginning of _The Matrix_ by that punk guy (his g/f had the white rabbit tatoo).  At the end of the movie, he even comes back to life after dying, with the power of faith and love.


----------



## Wayside (May 29, 2003)

krunchyfrogg said:
			
		

> *The biblical references are very interesting, and IMO, very accurate.  Cypher is most definitely the Judas figure, as he starts off as an ally, shares a drink with Neo (Jesus), and betrays him.
> 
> Neo is even called "My savior" and "My own personal Jesus Christ" at the beginning of The Matrix by that punk guy (his g/f had the white rabbit tatoo).  At the end of the movie, he even comes back to life after dying, with the power of faith and love. *




Oh definitely.  Gnosticism was surely a big influence on the concept of the Matrix, whether the Wachowski brothers are aware of it directly or not.


----------



## Villano (May 29, 2003)

krunchyfrogg said:
			
		

> *The biblical references are very interesting, and IMO, very accurate.  Cypher is most definitely the Judas figure, as he starts off as an ally, shares a drink with Neo (Jesus), and betrays him.
> 
> Neo is even called "My savior" and "My own personal Jesus Christ" at the beginning of The Matrix by that punk guy (his g/f had the white rabbit tatoo).  At the end of the movie, he even comes back to life after dying, with the power of faith and love. *





And Neo raised the dead Trinity.  Making her Lazarus?


----------



## mojo1701 (May 29, 2003)

And don't forget about her name. _Trinity_. As in: 'The Holy Trinity,' Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity, maybe??


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## RangerWickett (May 29, 2003)

Okay, I gotta butt in here.  Some of these 'observations' are so bleedin' obvious that you really shouldn't be devoting the time to posting them.  Of course Neo is Jesus ('Supa Kung-Fu Jesusu!  Hori Churinitei Ataku!').

However, I do like the possibility of a twist where Morpheus is actually Satan.  So the Architect would have to be God, against whom Morphey is rebelling, only in this reality, angels were unusually mean to Jesus.  Well, no one ever said the comparison was completely parallel.  And of course, this way it's more fun when both sides are bad.  Maybe, just mabye, we'll see some true human decency in one of these characters before the next movie ends.  The Oracle and Trinity have seemed to be the only people in the matrix to ever really show compassion or caring.  Heck, even Neo, at the end of Reloaded, treated Trinity more as a problem than a lost love.  "I am all powerful, so where do you get off dying on me, woman?!  Get yo' bitchass back in the kitchen and make me some pie!"


----------



## Wayside (May 29, 2003)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *However, I do like the possibility of a twist where Morpheus is actually Satan.  So the Architect would have to be God, against whom Morphey is rebelling, only in this reality, angels were unusually mean to Jesus.  Well, no one ever said the comparison was completely parallel.*




It is, just not to the orthodoxy.  It's parallel to a heresy.  Hmm.. odd too, that in Gnosticism Christ has a female parallel in Pistis Sophia, for which the Matrix offers up Trinity.

There's a really interesting section in one of Campbell's Masks of God books on Satan as Christ in Gnosticism, I'll have to dig it up.  No one puts less stock in Campbell than me, but it's still interesting.


----------



## kingpaul (May 29, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *No one puts less stock in Campbell than me*



I find that impossible.  I've never heard of him before tonight; ergo, I have less stock in him then you.


----------



## Wayside (May 29, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *
> I find that impossible.  I've never heard of him before tonight; ergo, I have less stock in him then you.   *




Really?  Joseph Campbell?  I'm almost as impressed as I was a few years ago when I met a girl who happened not to know who Ben Affleck was.  I salute you sir


----------



## Welverin (May 29, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *
> Really?  Joseph Campbell?  I'm almost as impressed as I was a few years ago when I met a girl who happened not to know who Ben Affleck was.  I salute you sir  *




Name rings no bells for me either, sure he's as well known as you think?


----------



## Frostmarrow (May 29, 2003)

Part 2 and 3 are supposed to take place over 72 hours. That's three days. Are we to assume that Neo will be going to heaven, and sit by the Architect, at the end of Revolutions?


----------



## Bagpuss (May 29, 2003)

I think you would be very wrong in that assumption.


----------



## Wayside (May 29, 2003)

Welverin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Name rings no bells for me either, sure he's as well known as you think? *




Umm, yeah, what with _The Hero With A Thousand Faces_ being the model for such things as, oh, Star Wars.  Not that I would expect Joe Guy off the street to know this, he just seems relatively well known around here .  Maybe that is only in the general forum though.


----------



## Welverin (May 30, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *Umm, yeah, what with The Hero With A Thousand Faces being the model for such things as, oh, Star Wars.  Not that I would expect Joe Guy off the street to know this, he just seems relatively well known around here .  Maybe that is only in the general forum though. *




I'd say, because I can't recall hearing of that either. Oh and being used as a model for something else doesn't require being well known.
Of course I could just be an uncultured lout, so who knows?


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ooh, that's the most insightful guess I've seen yet.
> 
> So what do you think -- do you think the council has resigned itself to the fact that Zion must be destroyed and so is kind of "letting" it happen? *





Now do the math and tell me how many people per day you would have to free from the Matrix to have 24 people go to 250,000 people all in the space of one lifetime (assume the councilman was the One and was Neo's age).

Basically in the space of 40 years a population would have to go from 24 to 250,000. Also in that time not a single member of the origional group can break down and let out the truth about everything.

Too much of a stretch for me.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2003)

Lots of people have asked how Neo can affect things in the real world.

Many assume he can because this is another layer of the 
Matrix or because he can now remotely log into the Matrix.


What if it is something else? What if everything is pretty well how the Architect says things are but there is something the Architect did not predict.

Neo is actually Neo v6.0 according to the Architect. Now does that mean he is just the 6th choice or he is the 6th itteration. If he is the 6th itteration maybe he is a clone of the previous. If that is the case then maybe reusing the same material for each itteration of Neo is allowing Neo to get better every time.

Things do change over time. The Architect says that Zion has been destroyed 5 times and the AI is getting very good at it. So the AI can adapt over time. The AI is learning from each assault and getting better. 


Also a side point. Either the Architect or the Oracle are lying. The Oracle knew that Neo and Trinity would be in love. How can she really know this is her knowledge is based on the actions of the previous Neo's. Also one would assume that what the Oracle knows the Architect must also know. They must be working together. If this is the case then the Architect would know what answer Neo would take so why give him a choice when he is going to make the wrong choice.


----------



## Umbran (May 30, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Also one would assume that what the Oracle knows the Architect must also know. They must be working together. *




Um, I wouldn't assume that at all.  In fact, one of the top things on my mind coming out of the theatre was if the Architect and the Oracle are really working towards the same thing.

This is the sixth iteration, and things change.  Maybe one of them has gotten tired of this, and thinks there's a better way to go about it and is heading toward that end.  Hm?


----------



## Datt (May 30, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Now do the math and tell me how many people per day you would have to free from the Matrix to have 24 people go to 250,000 people all in the space of one lifetime (assume the councilman was the One and was Neo's age).
> ...




Ah, but you assume they have the same lifespan as you or me.  For all we know they could live alot longer than us.  It could be more like 50 or 60 years.  Also, they said they have released alot more people since they release Neo than they had before.  So we can assume that they have had a major population boost.  Also, some of those 250k are natural born humans. So they weren't released from the Matrix at all.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 30, 2003)

I rewatched Matrix today, together with my two sisters, and I noticed something - or was remembered at something - i seem to have overlooked:

(Ex) Agent Smith sends Neo a present, his old communicationthingie he used as an agent.

From the first movie, I remember him taking it off when he interrogated Morpheus. Before, he send the two other agents out (by the way, somehow I miss their familiar faces - I watched the first movie to often  ).
When the bomb in the elevator explodes, and the water goes off, the two other agents enter the room again, Smith still without his coms. All three seem to be surprised - Smith because of the water and the disturbance, the other two of Smith "interrogation methods" and maybe also his missing com. 
Smith seemed to be unaware of what happend unlike in all other situations. 

When the agents give orders, they tend to touch their ear and their com unit, especially in the scene where they send the sentinels after the nekubadnezarniansduinst (whatever - the hero`s ship). Maybe (or better: probably) it is the communication device not only between the agents, but also between all other machines (at least those still linked to the system).

So, Neo got this communication device that allows agents to control other machines - maybe he can finally use it, even if he was not aware of these abilities before. (Maybe it required the sweets of the oracle or the contact with the architect to get "access" to this new device/subprogram/ability)

Maybe it also explains why he could use it outside the Matrix, while unplugged - the Sentinels are always unplugged and do not have to be on "transmission level" to work and receive orders (otherwise, the attack on Zion would fail). 
In this case, it seems as if Neo (and probably all other "ex-plugged") has some kind of transceiver - for whatever reason...

It still leaves the question if (and then, why?) Smith really wanted this to happen - whe can`t be sure what he wants (from the last movie, he seems to prefer the Matrix and humanity destroyed)

Mustrum Ridcully


----------



## kingpaul (May 31, 2003)

Hey, I just had a bizarre thought: Neo is the One who will bring balance to the Force.


----------



## Dinkeldog (May 31, 2003)

Mustrum, it's "Nebuchadnezzar".  Named after the king of Babylon in the Book of Daniel.

Was anyone jarred about the awful casting of Agent Smith?  All I could think of was him telling Neo he would have to take the Ring to Mordor to save the world while telling Morpheus that he'd never allow his immortal daughter to marry worthless human scum like him.


----------



## Dinkeldog (May 31, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *
> Now do the math and tell me how many people per day you would have to free from the Matrix to have 24 people go to 250,000 people all in the space of one lifetime (assume the councilman was the One and was Neo's age).
> *




It's an exponential algorithm.  Some of the people freed go on to free other people.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 31, 2003)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> *Was anyone jarred about the awful casting of Agent Smith?  All I could think of was him telling Neo he would have to take the Ring to Mordor to save the world while telling Morpheus that he'd never allow his immortal daughter to marry worthless human scum like him.   *



I'm not sure if you are kiddin' or not here.

That said, I've always felt that Hugo Weaving was a bad casting 
decision for Elrond. He doesn't fit IMO. Plus, I can't stop imagining 
him doing the Agent Smith thing.

"As you can see, we've had our eye on you for some time now, Mr. Baggins. It seems that you've been living two lives. In one life, you're Frodo Baggins, a bachelor living on your uncle's money, you have a nice hole in the ground, you take care of your garden, and you help your friends when they get themselves into trouble. The other life is lived in adventuring, where you go by the alias of the Ringbearer and are guilty of virtually every crime against Mordor we have a law for. One of these lives has a future, and one of them does not. I'm going to be as forthcoming as I can be, Mr. Baggins. You're here because we need your help. We know that you've been in contact with a certain artifact, the one they call 'The One Ring'. Now whatever you think you know about this ring is irrelevant. He is considered by many authorities to be the most precious thing in existance. My colleagues believe that I am wasting my time with you but I believe that you wish to do the right thing. We're willing to wipe the slate clean, give you a fresh start and all that we're asking in return is your cooperation in bringing a known tool of world domination to it's rightful owner."


----------



## Dinkeldog (May 31, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *
> I'm not sure if you are kiddin' or not here.
> 
> That said, I've always felt that Hugo Weaving was a bad casting
> ...




I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but here's the sentence I originally typed and then thought was too heavy-handed, "After all, we know that actors should only ever be allowed a single role for their entire career."


----------



## mojo1701 (Jun 1, 2003)

Clickie.


----------



## Kai Lord (Jun 1, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *
> I'm not sure if you are kiddin' or not here.
> 
> That said, I've always felt that Hugo Weaving was a bad casting
> ...



Good thing the rest of the characters were played by unknowns.


----------



## Phoenix8008 (Jun 1, 2003)

Okay, I just re-watched some of the first Matrix movie today and caught something I had missed before which may tie in with the food=programming concept. If someone else already brought this up and I missed it, then I apoligize.

When the Agent's are about to interrogate Morpheous, they prepare the serum which is supposed to make him more tractable to their questions. Both when the serum is being drawn into the syreinge and when it is injected into Morpheous, you can here a little of the "Matrix/Modem" sound like when the mirror stuff went down Neo's throat.

Now, obviously the drug was supposed to affect his mind here so it's nothing new that they must have been altering the programming of Morpheous' construct to make this possible, but I had never caught it before until I heard about the food connection here in this thread. Therefore I thought I'd come here and share this discovery in case anybody else hadn't seen it yet.

I can't wait to see #2. Good thing I don't get my movies spoiled by spoilers! Otherwise I'd be in trouble here!


----------



## The Fool (Jun 1, 2003)

*...*

...


----------



## Viking Bastard (Jun 1, 2003)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I gave you the benefit of the doubt... *



Right. There's some joke in that earlier post I'm missin' isn't there?


----------



## Dinkeldog (Jun 1, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *
> Right. There's some joke in that earlier post I'm missin' isn't there? *




The number of people that whinged when Hugo Weaving got cast as Elrond because they couldn't see him in any role except Agent Smith.


----------



## Viking Bastard (Jun 1, 2003)

Just glad to know I'm not alone.


----------



## mojo1701 (Jun 1, 2003)

Although they could've gotten someone better to play Elrond, IMO, I think that he wasn't all that bad.

P.S. Did it fry anyone else that Agent Smith, when talked to Neo, seemed to say, "Mr. Anderson" at the end of almost every sentence, if not all?


----------



## WizarDru (Jun 1, 2003)

Here's  a thought:  could food be a representation in the Matrix of wetware?  In other words, it's a subsystem that can provide the ability to hack the actual body of the person in question?

Consider, then, that it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the A.I.s are actually rewriting some of Neo's (and others) actual physical code.  After all, they're keeping these people in tanks, and yet they're not suffering from atrophied muscles, bed sores, etc....obviously, they must have some ability in this regard.

If you could accept this idea, then Smith taking over the one agent, and Neo gaining new abilities after the events of Reloaded (food, kisses and such) could be a more believable possibility, other than just another abstracted level of the Matrix (or another Matrix entirely).


----------



## Kai Lord (Jun 2, 2003)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> *Although they could've gotten someone better to play Elrond, IMO, I think that he wasn't all that bad. *



FWIW, David Bowie was Peter Jackson's first consideration, but he offered the role to Weaving after determining that Bowie looked too old.  If PJ had a access to a time machine a "Labyrinth" era Bowie would have been perfect.

I did, however, feel that Weaving made a fine Elrond nevertheless.


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 2, 2003)

After reading all this it really makes me laugh.  Wait 'till y'all find out that this is all in Anderson's head and is just a silly nightmare he had falling asleep in his cubicle at work.

Just makes me giggle.


----------



## Kai Lord (Jun 2, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *After reading all this it really makes me laugh.  Wait 'till y'all find out that this is all in Anderson's head and is just a silly nightmare he had falling asleep in his cubicle at work.*



All I know is that the whole invincible-freedom-fighter-who-discovers-he's-a-created-pawn-of-the-head-bad-guy-to-destroy-the-resistance-even-though-a-rogue-henchman-is-trying-to-kill-him-in-a-what-is-real-environment-here-take-this-red-pill-so-you'll-wake-up-follow-this-prophecy-don't-be-tempted-by-the-hot-girl-stick-with-the-action-hero-chick-now-that-its-over-is-it-all-still-a-dream was done much better in Total Recall.


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 2, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *All I know is that the whole invincible-freedom-fighter-who-discovers-he's-a-created-pawn-of-the-head-bad-guy-to-destroy-the-resistance-even-though-a-rogue-henchman-is-trying-to-kill-him-in-a-what-is-real-environment-here-take-this-red-pill-so-you'll-wake-up-follow-this-prophecy-don't-be-tempted-by-the-hot-girl-stick-with-the-action-hero-chick-now-that-its-over-is-it-all-still-a-dream was done much better in Total Recall.*



Hear, here.  

I can't tell you how many times that's happened to me while sleeping on the job...


----------



## WizarDru (Jun 2, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *All I know is that the whole invincible-freedom-fighter-who-discovers-he's-a-created-pawn-of-the-head-bad-guy-to-destroy-the-resistance-even-though-a-rogue-henchman-is-trying-to-kill-him-in-a-what-is-real-environment-here-take-this-red-pill-so-you'll-wake-up-follow-this-prophecy-don't-be-tempted-by-the-hot-girl-stick-with-the-action-hero-chick-now-that-its-over-is-it-all-still-a-dream was done much better in Total Recall. *




Must.Stop.Head.From.Exploding.........


----------



## krunchyfrogg (Jun 2, 2003)




----------



## WayneLigon (Jun 2, 2003)

OK, just got back from seeing.

No, I haven't read the rest of the thread 

My impression: Well, I did like it, ultimately. I've had a really crappy week and I wanted something nice with things blowing up.  

Second impression: the entire bit about humans being a power source is not exactly true. That seems to be the main thing people criticising the movie bring up ad nauseum. The scene with The Architect, though, makes me think we're the central processing unit. Humans are, in fact, the Matrix. It didn't need us as a 'power source', it needed the processing power of the human brain, which is astoundingly more complex than any machine. The people in those towers serve as organic circuitry. 

His bit about 'there are levels of existance we're willing to accept' was interesting. Maybe he's talking about consciousness. With people in the mix, the machines are able to tap into that and acheive self-awareness.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 2, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *Consider, then, that it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the A.I.s are actually rewriting some of Neo's (and others) actual physical code.  After all, they're keeping these people in tanks, and yet they're not suffering from atrophied muscles, bed sores, etc....obviously, they must have some ability in this regard.*




That's an interesting idea, but I feel I must point out that when Neo is rescued from the Matrix they have to re-build all of his atrophied muscles, and when Neo asks why his eyes hurt Morpheus replies: "You've never used them before."


----------



## Eccles (Jun 2, 2003)

*Further food-related over-analysis*

Does anyone else now think it interesting that Cypher's decision to betray Morpheus and the rest of Zion was made _over a meal_?

Apart from the cookie thing, I can't think of a single other moment of people eating in the first film.

Edit: (Within the Matrix, anyway - the white slop in the Neb. is probably different).


----------



## JacktheRabbit (Jun 2, 2003)

jaldaen said:
			
		

> *Just as a side note... I don't remember actually seeing Neo eat the candy he is given by the Oracle in Reloaded... did I miss it? or does he get distracted from eating it by Agent Smith...
> 
> Jaldaen *





I saw the movie for a second time this weekend.

1. Neo did NOT eat the candy.

2. The candy the Oracle ate REALLY looked like the red pill Morpheous offered to Neo in the first movie.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (Jun 2, 2003)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> *
> P.S. Did it fry anyone else that Agent Smith, when talked to Neo, seemed to say, "Mr. Anderson" at the end of almost every sentence, if not all? *




I liked that part. I consider it part of Smith's charm as a character. No matter what Neo thinks he may have become he is still just Mr. Anderson to Smith.


----------



## WizarDru (Jun 2, 2003)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> *That's an interesting idea, but I feel I must point out that when Neo is rescued from the Matrix they have to re-build all of his atrophied muscles, and when Neo asks why his eyes hurt Morpheus replies: "You've never used them before." *




Hmmm.  You're right, I completely forgot about that part.  I'm going to pick up the movie on DVD shortly to rewatch it (why haven't I gotten it before now?  Everyone else I know got it as the first DVD for their players...so I never bothered).

Still, I think it's a little hard to accept that the muscles build up to tolerance so quickly, unless they have been treated in some fashion.  If he's spent his entire life in an egg, he should be unable to stand, let alone walk, right?  

I'm certainly interested in getting the Animatrix when it comes out, tomorrow.  Maybe I'll go see my second viewing of 'Reloaded' at the IMAX.  Yikes.


----------



## Datt (Jun 2, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hmmm.  You're right, I completely forgot about that part.  I'm going to pick up the movie on DVD shortly to rewatch it (why haven't I gotten it before now?  Everyone else I know got it as the first DVD for their players...so I never bothered).
> 
> ...




Well remember Morpheus and Dozer have those electrode needles working on Neos muscles.  They are probably sending short electric shocks to his muscles to get the to spasm for a second and use them.  We don't know exactly how long they worked on him, it could have been days if not weeks.  I am sure that they had done that so often that they knew exactly what they were doing.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 2, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *Still, I think it's a little hard to accept that the muscles build up to tolerance so quickly, unless they have been treated in some fashion.  If he's spent his entire life in an egg, he should be unable to stand, let alone walk, right?
> *




If I remember, he can barely walk at first. They lay him down on a table and stick thousands of needles in him, and with the technique they use to film that section normally denotes quite a lot of time passing, so I guess it took them a while to rebuild him.


----------



## Salthanas (Jun 2, 2003)

I go along with the recursive matrix idea. Events in the "real world" seem to manufatured (such as Trinity being forced into entering the Matrix) for my liking. The degree of omnipitence that the Oracle has showed would, to my mind at least, be impossible if the "real world" was not another level of the Matrix.

A few possible theories as to whats going on

1) Neo is simply involved in some virtual reality game. Mervionan (not sure about the spelling) did say the whole thing was a game after all. Every time Neo makes a wrong choice he wakes up back by his computer with a message saying wake up Neo and the whole thing begins again.

2) Neo does not actually exist. Due to everyone being plugged into the matrix he is an anomaly created by some sort of collective human conscience. He can't actually exist without the Matrix. When he makes the decision at the end of the movie it actually represents the collectives decision about the future of the matrix which is engineered to essentially make the collective choose the matrix.

3) Everyone is a program and the whole thing is a simulation being run for some obscure purpose.

anyways enough mad ramblings from me

yours Salthanas


----------



## Villano (Jun 2, 2003)

I wonder if Neo is going to end up taking the place of the Archietect.  

Of course, we could all be reading too much into this.  Don't forget, this is a Hollywood action film.  They aren't the most thought provoking things in the world.  I have the feeling that it will end with Neo discovering that he can affect the outside world, the Matrix is destroyed, and the fact that the Earth is in ruins either won't be addressed at all (the ending will be everyone waking up), will be glossed over (we'll see the world 200 yrs in the future and everyone will be celebrating the legacy of Neo), or will handled in some bizarre, Hollywood fashion (Neo can return the Earth to its original state in a sort of quasi-magical way).

Personally, I'm waiting for Tron to show up and kick Neo's ass.  I mean, he only needed *one* movie to overthrow his evil, computer master.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 2, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> *and the fact that the Earth is in ruins either won't be addressed at all (the ending will be everyone waking up), will be glossed over (we'll see the world 200 yrs in the future and everyone will be celebrating the legacy of Neo), or will handled in some bizarre, Hollywood fashion (Neo can return the Earth to its original state in a sort of quasi-magical way). *




Try this for a Hollywood ending - Neo takes some clues from the Oracle about how machines need people, and from the Councilman about how people need machines.  Rather than fully destroy the former "bad guys", Neo brokers a truce, and the people and machines cooperate to restore the planet...


----------



## Negative Zero (Jun 2, 2003)

ironically, this is exactly the impression that i got from Neo's telephone speech at the end of the first movie, but was nowhere to be found in the second.
go figure.

~NegZ


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 2, 2003)

Well, the Wachowski's didn't know if there was going to be a sequel until the first one was the success it was, so they had to finish the Matrix 1 off in a good way. Which they did. Besides, it doesn't really make a difference. That phone speech still fits in with the start of Matrix 2, ie Neo telling the machines "this is how it's going to begin" to "we've rescued more in the past 6 months than in the past couple of years" or whatever the quote is.



> _originally posted by Villano_*
> Of course, we could all be reading too much into this. Don't forget, this is a Hollywood action film. They aren't the most thought provoking things in the world.*




Well, except for the part where this film _is_ thought provoking, rooted in philosophy (however badly you think it's presented or dealt with in the film) and a bit more than an 80's Hollywood Action film, where Sly/Arnie/whoever kills an incredible number of people.


----------



## WayneLigon (Jun 3, 2003)

Salthanas said:
			
		

> *The degree of omnipitence that the Oracle has showed would, to my mind at least, be impossible if the "real world" was not another level of the Matrix. *




Maybe Morpheus is the Oracle. Didn't they say he was a changed man when he left from his interview with her? Maybe she can infect minds as well, like Smith did, and what's been riding around in Morpheus' skull is The Oracle.


----------



## Bagpuss (Jun 4, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *Try this for a Hollywood ending - Neo takes some clues from the Oracle about how machines need people, and from the Councilman about how people need machines.  Rather than fully destroy the former "bad guys", Neo brokers a truce, and the people and machines cooperate to restore the planet... *




Highly likely since the Matrix MMORPG it set completely within in the Matrix and timeline wise is set after the 3rd film. So its not like the Matrix will be destroyed by the end of the next movie.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 4, 2003)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> *Maybe Morpheus is the Oracle. Didn't they say he was a changed man when he left from his interview with her? Maybe she can infect minds as well, like Smith did, and what's been riding around in Morpheus' skull is The Oracle. *




OK, that's officially the strangest, yet possibly most interesting bit of speculation I've heard so far.


----------



## krunchyfrogg (Jun 5, 2003)

LINK

Very well written, interesting analysis of the movie (_Matrix:Reloaded_)


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 5, 2003)

I like it.

Worth reading, if only for the way he refutes the Matrix-within-a-Matrix theorey at the end.


----------



## Black Omega (Jun 6, 2003)

Interesting reading, but I'm not sure he refutes anything.  Why doesn't Smith change the humans appearance as well as mentally taking him over?  That would defeat the point of why he is doing it, infiltration.

Why would the machines need to reload the Matrix if they had a new improved, perfectly functioning matrix in Zion?  Because it's not.  From the movie, Zion gets reset each time they reload.  So it's no more perfect than the rest of the matrix, instead it's a necessary part of the reload process.

I do agree with him that Zion as part of the matrix creates problems.  And it solves others.  No matter how you look at it something doesn't fit.


----------



## reapersaurus (Jun 6, 2003)

> Of course, we could all be reading too much into this.



 You don't think?!      

Just the fact that so much can be discussed about the movie is an indicator of how good Revolutions was, regardless what many people are saying.
It's amazing to me sometimes how people can build up their expectations so high, that nothing would satisfy them.

And my opinion is that the Matrix-within-a-Matrix theory will not turn out to be true, nor the food-as-virus theory.

The religious theories are very interesting, also the Councilman as one of the 23.

A question:
They show 250,000 squids out in force against Zion.
What exactly does Zion have to defend itself?
Have they detailed that anywhere?
Cause it sure seems to me that with the power the machines have (that 250k is not all the forces they have), they should be able to slaughter the humans without trying too hard.

Have they even shown how a ship can take out a SQUID?
I presumed the EMP was a last-gasp measure, not THE way they end up taking out one of the 250K arrayed against them.


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## Cazador (Jun 6, 2003)

I just finish reading this thread, it was a very good time but I can't believe no one mention one thing I found the other day.
In the Enter the Matrix game there's a lot of videos with the real actors that shows you the other side of the history, you have one scene where you see several people dead and Bane (the guy infected by Smith) moving around them, then you see the reaction of the people on the ship that rescue him and the others (think it's The Hammer)

Anyway this videos add to the history but aren't really essential to understand the movie, but there's one video that talks about somethig that I never see or read anywhere, near the end of the game (I was playing as Ghost the guy on the Logos, the ship of Niobe) you see a video where the Logos got a call from the Matrix and they don't know who could be because they lost connection with Neo, Trinity and Morpheus after they blow out the energy plant, they answer the call and it's Seraph telling them that they must go and see the Oracle.
At this point you leave the video and enter the game where you have to fight with Seraph, if you loss you miss the video and the game goes on, if you win then you see a full video of the character you're playing visiting the Oracle (I haven't reach that part with Niobe yet and don't know if the Oracle says the same to her), besides you see the real actors on the game the Oracle it's played by another woman, from what I know the woman playing the Oracle dies on September 01 so that's why they use this actress I don't think it's a mislead since Seraph guides you to the Oracle.
Anyway basically what the Oracle told to Ghost that it's important to the history is this:

Ghost: Who are you?

Oracle: I'm the Oracle. I can tell you that I remember bits & pieces of my past

Ghost: What happened to you?

Oracle: Two Programs that I trusted sold the termination code of my orginal shell to the Merovingian

Ghost: Why?

Oracle: For love, for the life of their child

Ghost: You knew and let that happend?

Oracle: Had to. The child is important, I can't tell you why but I believe that one day the child will change both our world and your world forever

Then Ghost ask if that's why she calls him and the Oracle says no and explains that she's trying to prepare some people for the "impending trial" [not sure about the words here]

Soooooooo I can't believe when I saw this the first time, seems something that should be on Revolutions and maybe this is a hint but a strong one, remember that the game was written by the brothers so this reference is really weird, think you'll like to know about it.

Two programs having childs?
Neo and Trinity are those programs that the Oracle trusted?
If the above it's true then the theory of the Matrix within the Matrix sounds correct cause Neo and Trinity are programs

I don't know what to think of this right now, I would like to see your opinions about it.

Cazador


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## WizarDru (Jun 6, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *A question:
> They show 250,000 squids out in force against Zion.
> What exactly does Zion have to defend itself?
> Have they detailed that anywhere?
> ...




On the Animatrix, the first video is "The Last Flight of the Osiris", detailing how the doomed ship Osiris discovers that Zion is under attack and how they let pass on the message to a drop point (which is retrieved in the game, and presented in the movie).  As they're running from squids, they have two gunners with what appear to be large-shelled machine gun emplacements.  They destroy several squids this way, but it's clear that it's a losing effort.  The guns are good for taking out a few squids, but the EMP is much more effective, due to their speed, toughness and manueverability.

Further, in 'Reloaded', you see some of the defenses at Zion, and they include men in battle-suits with what are probably rail-guns, and large gun emplacements at the fortifications.  But against an unrelenting onslaught of machines that don't know fear, they will only hold for so long.

I think, though I don't know, that the Machines are also very energy dependent.  If the loss of the sunlight caused by "Operation: Dark Storm" (as seen in the Animatrix) caused them that much trouble, they may be very conservative when it comes to power expenditures...and it's clear that they expend a great deal of it.  Further, while they are alien in their thinking, it's clear the machines, in the past, were willing to co-exist and had a desire to live...thus, they may not want to accept the losses taken unless they're certain of victory.  Consider also that the machines are clearly not all in agreement about all things...the Oracle, architect, twins and Merovignian show that, I think.

Here's a question that I've been wondering about, though:  If the architect is telling the truth (and I'm not convinced entirely that he is...especially since he may be lying by omission or intentionally misleading), then Zion has been cleared five times prior to this, right?  If so, then did they cover up their previous tunnels, or does Zion move?  The huge earth-moving process is a hell of a thing, and would be even more difficult to cover up, I'd imagine, and be pretty noticable if they did.


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## JacktheRabbit (Jun 6, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> Here's a question that I've been wondering about, though:  If the architect is telling the truth (and I'm not convinced entirely that he is...especially since he may be lying by omission or intentionally misleading), then Zion has been cleared five times prior to this, right?  If so, then did they cover up their previous tunnels, or does Zion move?  The huge earth-moving process is a hell of a thing, and would be even more difficult to cover up, I'd imagine, and be pretty noticable if they did. *





You are assuming that the machines destroy Zion the same way each time.


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## randomling (Jun 6, 2003)

This may be incoherent, but I'm just making notes as I go along. Just saw the film for the first time today and trying to make sense of it in my little brain.



> Elder Concilman is talking to Neo before the Oracle calls him and tell him that humans need machines just like machines need humans. Elder Councliman is a former The One. He is the last one who made the choice to go to the source and restart everything. He knew that Neo was going to be faced with the upcoming choice and was trying to give him the advice to choose to restart. He evidentally can't say he is The One because then everyone wouldn't believe in the Prophecy and it wouldn't work. And to make it go even further the Council is made up of the last survivours of the original 24, (the One + 23 others). That is why the chose to help Neo and Morpheus instead of the logical thing which would be too defend the city. The know about the prophecy and must help move it along or everything will come to an end.




That's an interesting theory, but I recall Morpheus saying (way back in the first movie) that the original (or rather previous) One is (long) dead. The position of Morpheus and the Oracle is that Neo is the _reincarnation_ of the previous guy. I don't think that's possible if he's still alive, even in Buddhism!



> Oracle: Not too bright, though. You know why Morpheus brought you to see me?
> Neo: I think so.
> Oracle: So, what do you think? You think you're the one?
> Neo: I don't know.
> ...




Always thought this was an interesting sequence, especially considering how the rest of the movie pans out. Important phrases from this scene that stand out for me:



> Oracle: Being the one is just like being in love.




And:



> Oracle: Sorry kiddo. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
> Neo: What?
> Oracle: Your next life maybe, who knows? That's the way these things go.




Combine this with the Oracle's prophecy to Trinity: that one day she would fall in love, and that man would be the one. It seems to me that it's the love between Neo and Trinity that _makes_ him (them?) the one. Love (a kiss) returns Neo to life... his "next life", as the one. In the second movie, his love for Trinity is both his great strength and his great weakness. That's why I originally thought of the Matrix as a fairtale; it is Neo's journey of self-discovery (down the rabbit hole!) which ends up in him finding true love and, in the process, his true self. (Awwww.)


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## Welverin (Jun 7, 2003)

Well I saw it again yesterday and thought I?d mention a few things I noticed that relate to things that have been discussed already.

First the Oracle refers to the Merovingian as a program combined with what the Architect says about Neo I think it?s clear both of them are what they appear to be, a program and a human (respectively).

The Oracle told Neo that ?We have to work together for the future? (or some such), it?s the we part I think is significant because it would go along with the councilman?s conversation with Neo about humans and machines needing each other. This all adds up to the solution to everything beings something other than the destruction of the matrix or resetting it (the two options the Architect gave Neo). So I see this as foreshadowing of Neo?s leading humans and machines to living and working together in a more agreeable fashion (as other have already mentioned).

Next thing, Smith didn?t want anything from Neo, he wanted to take from Neo, what Neo tried to take from him, purpose. The way I interpret it is that when Neo blew Smith apart at the end of the first movie Smith ceased to be an agent (and therefore no longer had a purpose), this made him an unhappy camper and so he decided to do the same thing to Neo.

Finally, I think, I have the right quote for Morpheus at the end when the Neb goes kablooey. ?I dreamed a dream, but now that dream is gone.?


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## Datt (Jun 7, 2003)

randomling said:
			
		

> *That's an interesting theory, but I recall Morpheus saying (way back in the first movie) that the original (or rather previous) One is (long) dead. The position of Morpheus and the Oracle is that Neo is the reincarnation of the previous guy. I don't think that's possible if he's still alive, even in Buddhism!
> *




I have been thinking about this.  The former One would probably be considered dead because when he restarts the Matrix he ceases to be the One.  Of course the Oracle is going to say that the One is dead, waiting for the next one to come along and do everything over again.  I watched it again last night in IMAX, wow!, and when Coucilor Hamann and Neo are talking Neo they are talking about young and old.  Neo says "Is that why there are no young people on the Council?" Councilor Hamann just smiles at that.  But if for some reason Hamann isn't a former One I say he is definitely one of the 23 that restarted Zion, as is the whole council.


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## kingpaul (Jun 8, 2003)

Alright, I've seen it twice now.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Morpheus say that Zion had been around for a 100 years or so during the prayer?  If so, and if Hanan is one of the original 23, he'd be over 100 years now.  If he is, I want to look so good when reach that age I do.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 8, 2003)

I believe he only said they would have fought the fight for 100 years "now". This does not mean Zion does already exist 100 years...

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Endur (Jun 8, 2003)

*SPOILERS*

Great sequel.

Some thoughts.

When NEO stopped the machines, this was after he had entered the Machine's main frame.  

When he entered the Main Frame, the Architect offered to allow him to return to the matrix and watch the human race die or to allow the matrix to be recreated.  He chose to return to the matrix and rescue Trinity.

Which means that when he entered the main frame, he did something that changed his body.  Maybe he doesn't need to plug in directly anymore.  Maybe he subconsciously hacked the Machine's main frame and can now turn off Sentinels and other machines.

My predictions:

Given Neo's demonstration, Neo will defeat the 250k sentinel army.  Either directly or through what he has done to the mainframe.

Neo's primary antagonist in the next movie will be Agent Smith.  Smith appearently downloaded himself into humans that are plugged into the matrix.  The real threat is that Smith will attempt to assimulate every human being plugged into the matrix.

Those that aren't plugged into the matrix, Smith will attempt to kill.  As he attempted to sabotage the force that was counter-attacking the Sentinels by setting off an EMP early.

Tom


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## Bagpuss (Jun 9, 2003)

In Enter the Matrix they explain that the battle plan is to array the ship in a defensive line ahead of the machines and they trigger the ship's EMP simultaniously to knock out all the machines attacking Zion at once. The game also makes it pretty clear that they don't think it will be successful.


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## Quasqueton (Jun 11, 2003)

Just saw the movie for the 3rd time. Here's something I thought I noticed the 2nd time, but have now confirmed it. Maybe not a big thing, but interesting, I thought.

At the end of Reloaded, Neo is lying in a coma on the table in the ship's infirmiry. In the trailer for Revolutions, after the credits of Reloaded, we see Neo lying on a surface. He opens his eyes as if waking up suddenly. His hair and clothes are as he looks when in the matrix.

So, this looks to me like Neo's coma is because he is jacked into the matrix without the need of the ship's gear.

And I still think the "real world" is really just another level of the matrix.

Quasqueton


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## Datt (Jun 11, 2003)

Now that you mention that, I remember seeing that in the trailer as well.  I bet that is how Revolutions opens up.  With Neo waking up in the Matrix, or a Construct program of sorts.


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## kingpaul (Aug 4, 2003)

I was on a business trip last week, and the hotel had this movie available as a pay-per-view.  A bit bored, I decided to watch it (let's not get into hotel movie prices, shall we?).  Anyway, did anyone else notice that the time window to drop the electricity and get Neo into the door was 314 seconds?  Pi anyone?


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## RangerWickett (Aug 4, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *I was on a business trip last week, and the hotel had this movie available as a pay-per-view.  A bit bored, I decided to watch it (let's not get into hotel movie prices, shall we?).  Anyway, did anyone else notice that the time window to drop the electricity and get Neo into the door was 314 seconds?  Pi anyone? *




More likely, I'd guess there's some Biblical passage that's Book X, 5:14.  That's more the Wachowski's style, I think.


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