# Captain America: Civil War (trailer with 100% more Spider-Man)



## Kramodlog (Mar 10, 2016)

The best trailer for this film so far. The conflict between Cap and Stark feels more real than the one between Bats and Sups. 

[video=youtube;dKrVegVI0Us]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrVegVI0Us[/video]


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## Istbor (Mar 10, 2016)

I am not sure I am in love with it. 

Might be this long run of super hero movies, or the premise of the civil war bugs me.  I am not sure. 

That Spiderman *cough* Spiderboy *cough* though.  Not sure I like the young 15 year old approach.


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## Umbran (Mar 10, 2016)

Istbor said:


> That Spiderman *cough* Spiderboy *cough* though.  Not sure I like the young 15 year old approach.




Canonically, he gets his powers while in high school, when he's 15.  Note that this origin was devised in the 1960s.  

_Though at the time teenage superheroes were usually given names ending with "boy", Lee says he chose "Spider-Man" because he wanted the character to age as the series progressed, and moreover felt the name "Spider-Boy" would have made the character sound inferior to other superheroes._


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## Ralif Redhammer (Mar 10, 2016)

"I became a Spiderman when I was fifteen. That is why I always look fifteen.

In those days, of course, life was tough for a fifteen-year-old."

Just rewatched The Winter Soldier, and it’s interesting to see some of the hints and foreshadowing of Civil War.



Umbran said:


> Canonically, he gets his powers while in high school, when he's 15.  Note that this origin was devised in the 1960s.


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## Umbran (Mar 10, 2016)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> Just rewatched The Winter Soldier, and it’s interesting to see some of the hints and foreshadowing of Civil War.




And in Age of Ultron:   "Every time someone tries to win a war before it starts, innocent people die."

Cap seems to be set up as the, "Innocent until proven guilty," guy, and Stark as, "Get them before they get us."


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## Ryujin (Mar 10, 2016)

Umbran said:


> And in Age of Ultron:   "Every time someone tries to win a war before it starts, innocent people die."
> 
> Cap seems to be set up as the, "Innocent until proven guilty," guy, and Stark as, "Get them before they get us."




Cap always was the big boyscout who believed in the American ideal, rather than the American reality. He was about striving to be that ideal. Straight up; no irony.


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## Tonguez (Mar 10, 2016)

Vision vs Scarlet witch!


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## Umbran (Mar 10, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> Cap always was the big boyscout who believed in the American ideal, rather than the American reality. He was about striving to be that ideal. Straight up; no irony.




Yep.  If you ever wanted to know what the right moral stance to take on a subject was, you'd look at Cap.

His stance, however, is often not at all *easy* or *safe*...


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## trappedslider (Mar 10, 2016)

Underoos!


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## megamania (Mar 10, 2016)

Why WHY panic word- "Underoos?!?"


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## megamania (Mar 10, 2016)

As for Spider-man being 15...... he was 16 or so in the original series.    Much of the movie universe is based on the Ultimates version where he was only 14 years old (loved the Black Cat scene when she finds out  )


The best scene-   "I can do this all day long."     Bravo!


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## slightlyprime (Mar 10, 2016)

I love the trailer so much, hope scarlet witch shows mercy to vision or vision says the right thing so they fall in love. Spidey has an awesome costume but not quite as good as Black Panther.  Possibly best bit is BP galancing over his shoulder when shot at by the chopper as if someone tapped him to get his attention.  Trailer looks awesome in my opinion.


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## MechaPilot (Mar 10, 2016)

megamania said:


> Why WHY panic word- "Underoos?!?"




Why not?  It's incredibly fitting (assuming you know what underoos are).

The real question is who are on the underoos in the Earth of the MCU?


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## Ryujin (Mar 10, 2016)

Umbran said:


> Yep.  If you ever wanted to know what the right moral stance to take on a subject was, you'd look at Cap.
> 
> His stance, however, is often not at all *easy* or *safe*...




And that's the point: You do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because it's easy or safe.


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## Hand of Evil (Mar 11, 2016)

Spidey siding with Start


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## Umbran (Mar 11, 2016)

Hand of Evil said:


> Spidey siding with Start




Have you read the comic book?  They are certainly deviating from it, but Spidey's role in it is large (he's kind of the viewpoint character, actually), and his role is far more complicated than, "I'm on Stark's side."  If you want, I can inform you, but I don't want to give spoilers you may not desire....

How about this... Spoiler Block!

[sblock]In the comics, Peter Parker is slowly convinced (some might also say "bribed") by Stark to be on his side of the conflict (which is about superheroes having to publicly register as such, and work for the government after some second-string heroes trying to make it in reality TV get a school full of children blown up), to the point where Peter announces to the world that he is Spider Man, on national TV.  As the fight goes on, and he is asked to do things that feel less and less like being a good guy, Peter's opinion changes - to the point where he switches sides, and fights for Cap.  He has to send Mary Jane and Aunt May into hiding, to avoid Stark's wrath and manipulations.  It is a mess for poor Peter.  [/sblock]


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## delericho (Mar 11, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> The real question is who are on the underoos in the Earth of the MCU?




Batman?


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## Istbor (Mar 11, 2016)

Umbran said:


> Canonically, he gets his powers while in high school, when he's 15.  Note that this origin was devised in the 1960s.
> 
> _Though at the time teenage superheroes were usually given names ending with "boy", Lee says he chose "Spider-Man" because he wanted the character to age as the series progressed, and moreover felt the name "Spider-Boy" would have made the character sound inferior to other superheroes._




I understand. Just, I guess I would not see some of these hero types bringing a teenager into the midst of a war. Perhaps it was not known it was going to that extent when he is featured.  I suppose I will need to wait and see.  Just something about it doesn't sit right with me.


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## Umbran (Mar 11, 2016)

Istbor said:


> I understand. Just, I guess I would not see some of these hero types bringing a teenager into the midst of a war.




A few possibilities:

1) If they aren't going to the full "superhero registration act" thing, his secret identity may be intact, so they may not know how old he is.

2) Maybe it isn't *supposed* to sit right with you. That may be a point - that Stark is willing to go to some lengths that others may feel inappropriate to deal with this. 

3) Let's face it, teen or not, Spider Man is one of the most *effective* superheroes out there.  As physically strong as Iron Man, faster reflexes than Cap, and mentally sharp as a tack - if you are in such a conflict, and he's available, well... the temptation to get him involved would be strong, no?

4) This is Peter Parker we are talking about - he has an incredible ability to stick his nose into business, whether he should or not, and maybe He was going to get involved whether Stark liked it or not.

Ultimately, we will need to see how it plays out....


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## Morrus (Mar 11, 2016)

Yeah, kid superheroes is pretty much a staple of the genre. Heck, Robin isn't even a proper superhero!


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## Istbor (Mar 11, 2016)

That all makes sense.  I guess my stance on this sort of thing is just changing as I get older.  

On a good note, Black Panther looked amazing.  I look forward to seeing that action.


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## Tonguez (Mar 11, 2016)

delericho said:


> Batman?




there  were HeMan underroos - does He belong to disney? - and I can see the avengers team having got Underroos status in the MCU

is it bad to imagine Black Widow underroos?


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## Kramodlog (Mar 11, 2016)

I like this idea that superheroes enroll child soldiers in their personal war against crime/evil/dead parents.


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## trappedslider (Mar 12, 2016)

Leaked footage of the fight scene between spiderman and antman


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## pathfinderq1 (Mar 12, 2016)

So it looks like Black Widow is on Stark's team... Given her past history (as spy/assassin/whatever), which indicates that she might not like to be registered in any kind of formal way, and her history with Cap (especially through the events of Winter Soldier), is there anyone who doesn't think she is only pretending to be in Stark's camp?

I mean really. This is the woman who managed to trick the trickster god, after all...


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## Umbran (Mar 12, 2016)

pathfinderq1 said:


> So it looks like Black Widow is on Stark's team... Given her past history (as spy/assassin/whatever), which indicates that she might not like to be registered in any kind of formal way, and her history with Cap (especially through the events of Winter Soldier), is there anyone who doesn't think she is only pretending to be in Stark's camp?




I don't think so. She's *used* to having a national power be her boss.  She is also eminently practical, and if continued survival means submitting to an authority, so be it.


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## Ryujin (Mar 12, 2016)

Black Widow is Nick Fury's trusted asset. She does what she's told, no matter how distasteful. She does the job. She's part of The Establishment. She's a weapon. I can easily see her being on the side of registration.


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## Tonguez (Mar 12, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> Black Widow is Nick Fury's trusted asset. She does what she's told, no matter how distasteful. She does the job. She's part of The Establishment. She's a weapon. I can easily see her being on the side of registration.




may be not so much the side of registration.She is eminently practical so will work for the Authorities while equally being quite able to subvert the same authority. They've shown a bit of that in her phone call to Cap and her warning for Stark to watch his back. SHe may be a amoral assassin but she is loyal to her friends


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## Morrus (Mar 12, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> Black Widow is Nick Fury's trusted asset. She does what she's told, no matter how distasteful. She does the job. She's part of The Establishment. She's a weapon. I can easily see her being on the side of registration.




Eh? She spent the whole of _Winter Soldier_ fighting against the establishment. With Cap. She does *not* do what she's told.


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## Ryujin (Mar 12, 2016)

Morrus said:


> Eh? She spent the whole of _Winter Soldier_ fighting against the establishment. With Cap. She does *not* do what she's told.




Fighting against Hydra. For Fury. Chain of command.


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## Morrus (Mar 12, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> Fighting against Hydra. For Fury. Chain of command.




Not the point. Fury wasn't in the chain of command at that point.She was fighting against the establishment which she knew to be Hydra, but again, not the point - she did what she thought was right, not what she was told to do. There's no way to twist the event son Winter Soldier to paint her as an establishment puppet. She's clearly the opposite of that, especially when she thinks the establishment is wrong.


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## Ryujin (Mar 12, 2016)

Morrus said:


> Not the point. Fury wasn't in the chain of command at that point.She was fighting against the establishment which she knew to be Hydra, but again, not the point - she did what she thought was right, not what she was told to do. There's no way to twist the event son Winter Soldier to paint her as an establishment puppet. She's clearly the opposite of that, especially when she thinks the establishment is wrong.




Did I say "establishment puppet"? Nope. Consider the difference between the Chaotic and Lawful alignments. Fury is God. She follows her god. She has her own versions of honour and loyalty, and sticks to them. Consciously choosing your loyalties isn't being a puppet. She's anything but a puppet. She's a soldier, with a soldier's loyalties.


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## Morrus (Mar 12, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> Did I say "establishment puppet"? Nope. Consider the difference between the Chaotic and Lawful alignments. Fury is God. She follows her god. She has her own versions of honour and loyalty, and sticks to them. Consciously choosing your loyalties isn't being a puppet. She's anything but a puppet. She's a soldier, with a soldier's loyalties.




No, you said _"She does what she's told, no matter how distasteful. She does the job. She's part of The Establishment."_  You were pretty unequivocal about it.

Which clearly isn't the case. She doesn't do what she's told, no matter how distasteful.  And when she chooses to be, she is no longer part of the The Establishment.


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## Ryujin (Mar 12, 2016)

Morrus said:


> No, you said _"She does what she's told, no matter how distasteful. She does the job. She's part of The Establishment."_  You were pretty unequivocal about it.
> 
> Which clearly isn't the case. She doesn't do what she's told, no matter how distasteful.  And when she chooses to be, she is no longer part of the The Establishment.




It depends on what you define as "the establishment." You call Hydra, a criminal organization, the establishment. I call it her chain of command, who are resisting the control of a criminal organization.

*EDIT* To further explain my position these are the players we are discussing, as I see them:

Captain America 
- Archtype - Idealist
- D&D Alignment - CG
- Methodology - Soldier

Black Widow
- Archtype - Soldier
- D&D Alignment - LN
- Methodology - Covert Operative

Hydra
- Archtype - Evil Organization
- D&D Alignment - LE
- Methodology - Government Subversion


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## Morrus (Mar 12, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> It depends on what you define as "the establishment." You call Hydra, a criminal organization, the establishment. I call it her chain of command, who are resisting the control of a criminal organization.




Semantics. The Establishment, her chain of command, was the government, in the person of Robert Redford.  She decided to disobey him when she decided he was a bad guy. Therefore she does not do the job whatever, n matter how distasteful.  She does what she considers to be the right thing - in this case going on the run from the government as a wanted criminal with Cap. 

This discussion is silly. You're chasing your position and moving goalposts pretty constantly. I'll leave you to it, I think.


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## Ryujin (Mar 12, 2016)

Morrus said:


> Semantics. The Establishment, her chain of command, was the government, in the person of Robert Redford.  She decided to disobey him when she decided he was a bad guy. Therefore she does not do the job whatever, n matter how distasteful.  She does what she considers to be the right thing - in this case going on the run from the government as a wanted criminal with Cap.
> 
> This discussion is silly. You're chasing your position and moving goalposts pretty constantly. I'll leave you to it, I think.




Trying to explain how I have set the goalposts isn't moving them, but as you wish


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## Umbran (Mar 13, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> I
> Captain America
> - Archtype - Idealist
> - D&D Alignment - CG
> - Methodology - Soldier




Nah.  Cap is NG.  He very strongly abides by the law, until such time as that law is seen to be a specific problem, and then he will violate it, with a significant amount of angst over the fact.  he does *not* like violating the law.


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## Ryujin (Mar 13, 2016)

Umbran said:


> Nah.  Cap is NG.  He very strongly abides by the law, until such time as that law is seen to be a specific problem, and then he will violate it, with a significant amount of angst over the fact.  he does *not* like violating the law.




Yeah, I can easily concede that point.


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## Staffan (Mar 13, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> And that's the point: You do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because it's easy or safe.




Or as he put it in the comics:





That's Joe "Babylon 5" Straczynski putting the words in Cap's mouth, by the way. Standing up to authority in the name of what is Right is a big thing in that show as well.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Mar 14, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> is it bad to imagine Black Widow underroos?



I'm on my way to google to look for them now...

http://www.hottopic.com/brands/unde...11923724&009=p&011=black widow underoos&025=c

nope... I'll settle for she ra


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## MechaPilot (Mar 14, 2016)

Staffan said:


> Or as he put it in the comics:




It reads well, but it's also kind of crap.  It sounds all noble when you think you're right, like Cap obviously does, but that's the same attitude that would have public schools teaching the world is only 6,000 years old, that has people denying others service because of their race, and that you see with state employees who think that supreme court rulings don't apply to them.


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## Umbran (Mar 14, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> It sounds all noble when you think you're right, like Cap obviously does, but that's the same attitude that would have public schools teaching the world is only 6,000 years old, that has people denying others service because of their race, and that you see with state employees who think that supreme court rulings don't apply to them.




Yes, but it is also what put Rosa Parks in a particular seat on the bus.  So maybe there's something to it.

And that's as far as I am going to take it, with the No Politics rule.  I think at this point we have to stop and accept that, traditionally, this is how Cap thinks, for right or wrong.


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## MechaPilot (Mar 14, 2016)

Umbran said:


> Yes, but it is also what put Rosa Parks in a particular seat on the bus.  So maybe there's something to it.
> 
> And that's as far as I am going to take it, with the No Politics rule.  I think at this point we have to stop and accept that, traditionally, this is how Cap thinks, for right or wrong.




Well sure.  I didn't mean to imply that standing up for what one believes in is inherently wrong (nor was I attempting to be political: I was actually trying to skirt that as much as possible while still providing somewhat viable examples).  It's just also not inherently noble either.


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## Tonguez (Mar 14, 2016)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> I'm on my way to google to look for them now...
> 
> http://www.hottopic.com/brands/unde...11923724&009=p&011=black widow underoos&025=c
> 
> nope... I'll settle for she ra




certainly a whole different take on CP3O


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## Umbran (Mar 14, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> WIt's just also not inherently noble either.




Cap isn't about being inherently noble.  He's about doing the Right Thing.


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## Ryujin (Mar 14, 2016)

Umbran said:


> Cap isn't about being inherently noble.  He's about doing the Right Thing.




Being personally noble is just a byproduct of that 

Superman is the boyscout of the DC universe and Cap covers that base for Marvel.


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## tomBitonti (Mar 14, 2016)

I'd say that Black Widow has a deep understanding of the organization around her and works very hard to avoid conflicts (and to maneuver within the organization without apparently breaking any rules).  And, that she is more fundamentally motivated by her personal relationships than any chain of command.  And, she is motivated by personal obligations (red in her book).  She fantastically loyal to Fury.  She has great loyalty to Cap and Hawkeye.

A key conflict in Winter Soldier is the conflict between personal loyalty (to Fury) vs obeying authorities (Alexander Pierce).

Plotwise, this works because the organization (Shield) is presumed to be working from noble principles, and has authority only in so far as it follows those principles.  When Pierce acted in contravention, he negated his authority.

Thx!

TomB


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## Iosue (Mar 23, 2016)

The interesting thing about Winter Soldier is that when Black Widow first teams up with Cap, SHIELD is not after her.  She has no reason to suspect that SHIELD itself is up to no good.  We can assume that Cap tells her about Fury saying SHIELD was compromised, about being jumped by SHIELD goons in the elevator, and the Quinjet.  But you could say that at that point she's being flexible -- she knows Cap, enough to follow him on this chase out to New Jersey, but by doing so she's also keeping tabs on him.  If it turns out that Cap really is bad, she can call in reinforcements.  Her first inkling that things are not what they seem is when SHIELD fires the missile at the bunker.  It's at that point that she goes in all the way with Cap, against SHIELD/HYDRA.

As for Spider-Man, Tom Holland is 19.  They could have him playing 15 years old, but they could have him playing 18 just as easily.  FWIW, both the Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield Spider-Men started their movies as age 18, in their senior year of high school.


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