# Crossbow fighting ranger



## Khitan (Dec 8, 2011)

Hi everybody^^ 

Next week I'm going to start a Pathfinder campaign starting with 7th level characters and I'm searching for something interesting to play^^ 
Browsing the core rulebook I stopped at the dwarven ranger image and I instantly fell in love with it! 

Now I'm asking you: knowing that I can use only the core rulebook and the APG (but not the base classes of the APG, don't ask me why xD) how can I make a good ranger with the Crossbow Fighting Style? I know that bows are better than crossbows but I can't stand bows and for my dwarf ranger I think that a havy crossbow just fits bettere xD 

Some help please? I don't need to be "the strongest ranger in the entire world", I just need to be good at using crossbows and the usual ranger stuff...


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## Drathir (Dec 9, 2011)

crossbow mastery... bows are still a little bit better since they get str but a d12 in a full atk is still nice...


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## LogantheBard (Dec 9, 2011)

My wife's playing a Crossbow ranger in our game.  She wasn't much on regular bows either.  The biggest benefit of xbows is that you can (to a point) dump strength.  This gives her more stat points to put into Con, Int, and Wis for more HP/Skills/Spells.  You're never going to match a Mighty Composite Bow for damage output, but you'll be more versatile and useful to your party.  Being able to lay prone and snipe is a pretty sweet upside too!

3.X stuff had some pretty nifty crossbow feats if any of that is allowed in the game.

The only thing that I changed/added to give the crossbow a bit of an edge, I made a parallel Vital Strike chain of feats that applied to Crossbow shots in point blank range, so she can still be mobile.


There's also the dual hand crossbow pistolier type...  terribly ineffective imo, but oh so cool


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## Dingo333 (Dec 9, 2011)

My suggestion.

Drop ranger, go fighter: Crossbowman archtype

More feats and weapon specializations are huge boons

A heavy Repeating Crossbow
+10/+10/+5 for shots in a full round (add +1 to all if in 30ft)
1d10+6 for damage (+1 if in 30ft)

1: (half elf or human bonus) exotic proficency repeating heavy crossbow
1: Weapon Focus
2: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
4: Weapon Specialization
5: Rapid Reload
6: Point Blank Master (to be replaced later when you have safe shot class ability 13)
7: Rapid Shot

Dip a level for wizard or sorcerer and get gravity bow spell (ranger and wiz/sorc level 1 spell) vanish is also great for stealthing/sniping

In this way, a high dex is all you actually need. Do note though that you lose armor training and so you need light armor/mithral armor to make best use of the Dex. Also, since a lot of bonuses are based on readied actions, high init is also good


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 9, 2011)

Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
2 Rapid Reload (Heavy Crossbow) [Ranger]
3 Rapid Shot
5 Precise Shot
6 Improved Precise Shot [Ranger]
7 Crossbow Master (Heavy Crossbow)

...Or whatever order you prefer.  IPS and Crossbow Master are your level 6 and 7 feats (respectively), though.

Get a wand of Gravity Bow.  Since you only need one handto shoot your crossbow, you can even walk around with loaded xbow in one hand, buckler and wand in the other, and just drop the wand when you need to reload.  Now you're doing 3d6 per shot, which is pretty snazzy.  Your level 9 feat should be Weapon Focus and at level 10, I'd use the Ranger bonus feat on Point Blank Master. (It technically says archer rangers can select it, but IMO it's purely oversight that Crossbow wasn't mentioned, since the two weapon styles' feats are so similar and there's nothing inherently safer about shooting a bow in melee than there is a crossbow).  If DM doesn't allow PBM for crossbow, then take Deadly Aim at level 9 instead of Weapon Focus.

Play to the strengths of your weapon and race.  A crossbow can be fired prone, so if you get in a shootout, drop prone (it's a free action!) for a nice +4 AC bonus.  A crossbow unlike a bow has a respectable crit range, so consider giving your crossbow the keen enhancement so it threatens on a 17+.  Get a wand of darkness or an allied caster to cast it on a pebble or clothing item, something you can pull out when needed to exploit your darkvision.


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## Thanael (Dec 9, 2011)

To the OP: Check out Treantmonk's Guide to Rangers. Though the guide above does not yet take into consideration the new material that got added in APG and later. The Ranger's Crossbow Weapon Style for example. Also some use the archery style if they're going to use a crossbow. The function of the style is that it allows you to pick up some feats earlier than others and without meeting all the prereqs.

Note that PF made the switch hitter build viable again.


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## Khitan (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks everybody for the replies^^

I was considering the switch hitter build but I'm not certain if it would work with the crossbow style instead of the archery... Do you think that using the archery style to be a switch hitter but with the crossbow instead of the bow would work? Because many of the archery bonus feats aren't usefull for crossbows...


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 9, 2011)

Archers are better for switch hitting because they actually have a reason for a str score.  If you're doing crossbow, your str should be like 10-12, and lower if you can start with a handy haversack.  Doing melee is bad for you, unless you raise your str for no benefit to your crossbow fighting abilities at all.

And I don't like switch hitters, other than just carrying a 2H backup weapon.  Archery, as you can see, is stupidly feat hungry.  Even if switch hitting means only burning 1 feat into Power Attack, that's still 1 feat too many, IMO.

Also, once you get Point Blank Master, there really isn't a reason to switch hit ever again...


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## Khitan (Dec 10, 2011)

Ok… I think I found what I was looking for^^ Maybe it's not the most optimized character I could build but, since I actually don't care about optimization and I really wanted a Dwarf Ranger with a Bulldog Mastiff as animal companion and a big, heavy crossbow^^ that's the best I can do… 
Obviously critics and suggestions are welcome xD

To understand the character you must know a few things:
1) In our party there's only one melee character (a TWF warrior). There could be the cleric but knowing the player he won't be nothing more than a healbot^^" Then there's a mage and a ranged rogue… so I wanted to be able to switch to melee when needed. I focus more on the crossbow (not following the typical switch hitter build) but if I see that my fellow fighter is in trouble I want to be able to go helping him, taking some hits out of his back xD

2) My GM told me that we are going to fight mostly against humans, orcs and demons… that's for my choices for favored enemies and for the "particular" ability of the crossbow.

3) I know that the cheetah is the better choice for an animal companion but come on! A dwarf with a cat?? Seriously? I think a Bandog (Pittbull Mastiff, one of my favorite dogs ever xD) is reaaaally more "in character" don't you think?^^

Knowing that let's go with the build…

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*Karaz "K" a'Karak*
Male Dwarf Ranger 7
LN Medium Humanoid
*Init.* +6; 

*DEFENSE*

*AC* 22, touch 13, flat footed 19 
(+8 armor, +3 des, +1 shield)
*hp* 7d10 + 21
*Fort.* +8 *Ref.* +9 *Will.* +4 (+2 racial against spells, +2 trait against demon mind-control abilities, +2 Iron Will for 70 minutes a day)

*OFFENSE*

*Spd.* 20 ft.
*Ranged*  Heavy Crossbow Demon's Bane +1 +12/+7 (1d10+1)
*Melee* Greataxe +1 +10/+5 (1d12+5)

*STATISTICS*
*Str.* 16 *Dex.* 18 *Con.* 17 *Int.* 10 *Wis.* 14* Cha.* 8
*Base Atk.* +7/+2 *CMB* +10 *CMD* 23
*Feats* Power Attack, Vital Strike, Precise Shot (ranger), Deadly Aim, Crossbow Mastery (ranger), Endurance (ranger)
*Skills* Acrobatics +3, Handle Animal +8, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (planes) +6, Stealth +10, Intimidate +5, Perception +12, Climb +5, Survival +12
*Language* Common, Dwarf
*Gear* "Cure Light Wounds" wand, "Gravity Bow" wand, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Handy Haversack, +2 Breastplate, masterwork Buckler, +1 Demon's Bane Heavy Crossbow, +1 Greataxe, 2 Kukri, Throwing Axe + stuff (like bolts, pouch, oil, etc…)

*Favored Enemies:* Humans (+4), Orcs (+2)
*Traits:* Outlander - Exile, Asmodean Demon Hunter
*Archetipe:* Ranger Infiltrator. Adaptation Choosen: Humans - Iron Will
*
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*
*DISDAIN
*Medium Animal (dog)
*Init.* +3 *Senses* Low Light Vision, scent, perception +6

*DEFENSE
*
*AC* 17, touch 13, flat footed 14
*hp* 4d8 + 16
*Fort.* +7 *Ref. *+7 *Will* +2

*OFFENSE
*
*Spd.* 40 ft.
*Melee* bite 1d6+6

*STATISTICS
*
*Str.* 18 *Dex. *16 *Con.* 18* Int.* 2 *Wis.* 12 *Cha.* 6
*Base Atk.* +3 *CMB *+7 *CMD* 20
*Feats* Power Attack, Improved Overrun
*Skills* Perception +6, Survival +3
*
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*
OK, that's it^^ 
Basically I should be able to deal with all the 3 main enemy types that I will encounter (favored enemy for humans and orcs, demon's bane crossbow for demons). I'm not actually sure about my choices for favored enemies and the bane ability… another possible choice could be Favored Enemy Demon (+4), favored enemy humans (+2) and orc's bane crossbow (and that would be better for BG's reasons)… the thing is that I feel that demons will be more dangerous than the other 2 and so +2d6 damage against them it's a good thing xD On the other hand I don't know how many demons (compared to how many orcs or humans) are we going to fight (its an old Dragon Magazine's adventure, I don't know which one^^) and wasting 6000 golds to buy an ability that I'm not going to use much makes my heart cry… But I'm still thinking about it (and eventually, when I start playing, I can always ask the GM to make me switch after the first sessions, maybe she will be kind xD)

I know that i don't do much damage with the crossbow but using Gravity Bow and Deadly Aim I'll be be able to make 2 attacks at +10/+5 (2d8 + 5) plus 4 damage against humans, 2 against orcs and 2d6 against demons. Eventually, if I need to move, I can use Vital Strike making one attack at +10 (4d8 + 5) plus the favored enemy/demon's bane damage. 

If I need to go into melee combat, with Power Attack, I can still make 2 attack at +8/+3 (1d12 + 11) or one attack with Vital Strike (the round that i switch weapons, if I charge or if I have to move) at +8 (2d12 + 11)… 
I choose the greataxe instead of the more powerful falchion (better critical threat) only because there are no 2H greathammers in the core rulebook and the APG and I seriously can't see a dwarf with a blade… yes, maybe it's a cliché… but it's a cliché I like^^
Not the most powerful build ever but not too bad (at least fo my tastes^^)

I choose to leave Rapid Shot behind because I needed to be able to switch to melee, so I needed some melee feats, if necessary and I tried to make up with Vital Strike…

Choosing the Dog instead of the Cheetah was just because I LOVE big dogs and for my ranger it seemed a lot more characteristic xD I choose the Improved Overrun to give him some tactic capacity (hoping in high die rolls to knock enemies to the ground) and the Power Attack because it was a prerequisite for Improved Overrun…

Comments? Critics? Spill your hate on me xD


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 10, 2011)

"Demon" isn't a valid choice for bane.  You probably want Evil Outsider.  Or chaotic outsider, but you'd get far more mileage out of the former.


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## Khitan (Dec 10, 2011)

Yeah, I know^^ I just wrote "demon" 'cause it was shorter xD It's an "evil outsider's bane heavy crossbow" xD

Comments about the build?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 10, 2011)

Umm...as a switch hitter it's incredibly suboptimal, but you want a switch hitting xbow user, so I guess it's about as good as can be.  Saving a feat on crossbow master helped, but waiting till level 10 for IPS is pretty painful.

I'd drop the armor down to a +1 and with the money saved make the buckler +1 (so you end up with the same AC), get a +1 cloak of resistance, and still have 1000 gp to spare.  Really, don't invest too much into the armor in general, you're going to want to switch it out for mithral breastplate / celestial armor / mithral chain shirt after a while anyway.  Even now it's blocking off some of your dex bonus (still better overall than chain shirt, so good call, but it has no place in your arsenal within the next few levels).

Realize going melee means taking a -1 to hit due to buckler and losing its AC bonus...again, switch hitting  = bad idea. 

How attached are you to that animal companion as opposed to say...a more optimal one?


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## Khitan (Dec 11, 2011)

First of all thanks for the help xD

Second of all I know that's incredibly suboptimal but I tried to make it optimal (with bow, cheetah and so on...) but then, when I picture my dwarf with the bow, the falchion and the cheetah... well... I just couldn't see it xD I'm lucky that in my group the plain optimization isn't that important (we still try to make strong PCs but we accept having PCs a little less stronger but more interesting^^) so I really prefer having a PC that I like than a strong one... and, even if it's suboptimal, I don't think that my dwarf is that weak^^ I'm I wrong?

Speaking of the build... why is IPS so important? Will there be that much enemies with concealment? I ask because I've never played ranged characters so I'm not used to chek stuff like that xD 

About the armor... I know that having a +1 armor and a +1 buckler helps me save some money, but since I'm going in melee from time to time, losing 1 AC (with the normal buckler) or 2 (with the +1 buckler) it's different^^ And I know that, expecially with the crossbow build, switch hitting is really worse than suboptimal but, as I said before, we have only one melee fighter and so, even if I will use my crossbow most of the time, I really need to be able to switch to melee if necessary. I used only one feat for the melee (power attack) so I don't think I wasted to many resources on my melee capacity... 
And I'm not going to go in melee to often... just when really needed^^

Last but not least the animal companion. I imagine you're talking about the cheetah as better companion... well... I've already made a sheet for the cheetah and I know that it has better AC, 3 attacks, the trip ability, more initiative, more speed and with the appropriate feats (weapon finesse and agile maneuvers) better CMB and to hit bonus... but it's too damned skinny! I have my short, muscular, rude, bearded, almost always drunk dwarf with sigars, a greataxe and a f*****g big crossbow... whit a skinny cat on his side? It hurts my feeling more than having a bow xD Isn't there a way to make my dog a better companion (different feats/skills/abilities) instead of changing it? Or a way to have a better companion instead of the dog but still heavy, rude end massive?^^ I would have gone to the boar or the bison (or even the rhino xD) but I can't have them since I'm a ranger and not a druid...


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## Dingo333 (Dec 11, 2011)

*Animal Companion*

By the rules, the only animal companions you can not get are the ape, bear, dino (velociraptor) and boar.

I have never found anything saying you can not take any of the animal companions in the beastiarys (The roc entry even call out rangers)

That said, I recommend the Arsinoitherium (mega fauna rino) or the T-Rex or the stegosaurus


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## Khitan (Dec 11, 2011)

Well.. in the ranger animal companion section it clearly sais what animal companion can I choose... in the core rulebook I mean^^ Can I use different animal companions? Where is it written?^^


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## Dingo333 (Dec 11, 2011)

Khitan said:


> Well.. in the ranger animal companion section it clearly sais what animal companion can I choose... in the core rulebook I mean^^ Can I use different animal companions? Where is it written?^^






> Rocs taken as animal companions by druids or *rangers* are typically newly hatched birds—a baby roc is the size of a person and ready for flight and hunting within minutes of hatching. Unfortunately for druids seeking animal companions of legendary size, an animal companion roc is limited to Large size—still large enough for a Medium druid or *ranger* to use the flying beast as a mount.




either the roc is the exception or the rule and I would say it is the rule.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 11, 2011)

Khitan said:


> First of all thanks for the help xD
> 
> Second of all I know that's incredibly suboptimal but I tried to make it optimal (with bow, cheetah and so on...) but then, when I picture my dwarf with the bow, the falchion and the cheetah... well... I just couldn't see it xD I'm lucky that in my group the plain optimization isn't that important (we still try to make strong PCs but we accept having PCs a little less stronger but more interesting^^) so I really prefer having a PC that I like than a strong one... and, even if it's suboptimal, I don't think that my dwarf is that weak^^ I'm I wrong?
> 
> ...




It's not how weak the build is, it's the fact that things will get worse with level.  You've basically shut yourself off forever from the other basic archery feats.  The cost of maintaining two good weapons will severely pinch your finances as you get higher.  And so forth.

IPS is hugely important.  Concealment is common, but it does so much more than that.  It also ignores less than total cover.  Even if the DM never uses terrain for cover, just the simple act of shooting at an enemy with an ally standing between the two of you gives that enemy soft cover (and an effective +4 AC).  Finally, IPS also lets you shoot into a grapple without possibly killing your friend.  It's a great feat, and the fact ranger can get it FIVE levels early is really awesome!
You can get by without it, but I personally love it and try to get it ASAP.

Armor: How about this, then?  Upgrading +1 armor to +2 costs 3000 gp.  Use that money instead to get a ring of protection +1 (which adds to your touch AC, on top of overall AC) and Cloak of Resistance +1.  You come out much better.

Animal Companion: Doesn't have to be a cat.  Could even be as simple a change as the wolf.  Dog's just really bad.  At level 10 (effective druid level 7), I REALLY like the Roc and the various dinosaurs (T-Rex and Allosaurus are incredible).  And I agree with Dingo, the Ranger list was made before Paizo added a crapton of new companion choices in bestiaries and so forth.  It makes no sense to continue holding him to the initial core rule book choices as the druid is free to gain all the new animals as options.  The rules don't specifically say one way or the other, but just as the Ranger's choice in the core rules is restricted to a certain list, so is the druid.  The druid's just happens to be bigger.  Druid doesn't say they can pick "any animal."  It gives you a specific list just as Ranger does.  So then later on, Paizo adds more choices for animal companion.  Unless they say somewhere that the new options are druid only, it makes no sense to assume so.


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## Khitan (Dec 12, 2011)

> It's not how weak the build is, it's the fact that things will get worse  with level.  You've basically shut yourself off forever from the other  basic archery feats.  The cost of maintaining two good weapons will  severely pinch your finances as you get higher.  And so forth.




So what do you suggest? That I drop the melee completely (just carrying a 2h weapon as backup weapon) and focus only on the crossbow (taking point blanck shot so I can qualify for the other archery feats)? But will our only melee fighter survive in that way? 



> IPS is hugely important.  Concealment is common, but it does so much  more than that.  It also ignores less than total cover.  Even if the DM  never uses terrain for cover, just the simple act of shooting at an  enemy with an ally standing between the two of you gives that enemy soft  cover (and an effective +4 AC).  Finally, IPS also lets you shoot into a  grapple without possibly killing your friend.  It's a great feat, and  the fact ranger can get it FIVE levels early is really awesome!
> You can get by without it, but I personally love it and try to get it ASAP.




Noted^^ I'll put it in the build somehow xD You convinced me!



> Armor: How about this, then?  Upgrading +1 armor to +2 costs 3000 gp.   Use that money instead to get a ring of protection +1 (which adds to  your touch AC, on top of overall AC) and Cloak of Resistance +1.  You  come out much better.




Great idea xD And it was also easy xD



> I REALLY like the Roc and the various dinosaurs (T-Rex and Allosaurus are incredible).






> That said, I recommend the Arsinoitherium (mega fauna rino) or the T-Rex or the stegosaurus




Given some thinking... I think I might change the dog for a Roc or a Tyrannosaurus (yes.. they really ARE better than the dog xD even before level 7^^) but I'm still looking because I like other animals too... 
*ROC:* it flies and it can grab opponents and toss'em in the air. Great AC, good attacks
*TYRANNOSAURUS:* Well... it's a damned Tyrannosaurus! xD I love the grab ability! xD Good damage...
*ARSINOTHERIUM: *Not a great AC but the powerfull charge (2d8) plus trample is tempting... it doesn't have the "flavour" of the T-rex though...
*ANKYLORAURUS: *probably the worst but it has stun. 
*STEGOSAURUS: *Great AC, good damage + trip
*ELEPHANT: *Not the best AC but really good damage (gore+slam) + trample (2d6). But I'm not really convinced...

Right now I tend to choose the Roc or the T-Rex but I'm still thinking... (T-Rex is bigger, just like I wanted it for my dwarf, but the Roc is a lot more usefull, easier to take in the city and probably deadlier...)


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## Dingo333 (Dec 12, 2011)

You are forgetting a melee fighter your group has, your Trex/stegosaurus/whatever big beater you choose.

I would defiantly drop power attack for point blank, you come out so far ahead it is not even funny.

Also, when you have point blank master, you can be up there with them without provoking AoO as you fill them with bolts


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