# Vampire: the Masquerade - The Sabbat [Rated R]



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 24, 2003)

Here we continue our quest to convert a perfectly good d20 board to the dark side. Unlike the other Vampire game currently running on the boards, this game is set up to have it's player fill the roll of a Sabbat pack.

However, we are going to need a good storyteller to pull this off. 

So far, we already have a few PCs:
Myself, KitanaVorr, Catulle &  Tory Adore already have saved slots.

Any other new PCs would be up to the storyteller.

The game could run alongside our existing Camarilla game, or be its own beast entirelly. Any specifics are up to the storyteller. Anyone interested should check out the Vampire game currently running to see how these things work. We are hoping for a darker, more degenerate game with Sabbat characters. R to NC-17 rating I would assume.

That said, my avatar should make my personal choice of clan pretty clear.


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 24, 2003)

oh yes...the dark side...

I think 3 of us want to do Tzimisce (though as for me, I'm of course always wavering with 5 new character ideas a second) and not sure what Catulle had in mind.

Either way, I'm pretty much new at Sabbat (as I was with the current vampire game when it started) so whoever volunteers for the distinction of Storyteller...be oh so patient!


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## Jemal (Apr 24, 2003)

I'ld offer to do it, if not for the fact that I don't have the kind of experience you'ld need to pull it off.  Good luck, though.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 24, 2003)

Jemal said:
			
		

> *I'ld offer to do it, if not for the fact that I don't have the kind of experience you'ld need to pull it off.  Good luck, though. *




Experience? I'm not sure you need much.


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## Catulle (Apr 25, 2003)

Hiya,

Thought I should get myself subscribed to this one; I'm really pretty unfussy in regards to character. Given that I tend to dabble with concepts a lot, I'm happy to play to the group as a whole.

Regards,

Barry


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## Fanog (Apr 25, 2003)

I was hoping to enter a game of Vampire here, but I don't think I'd do well in a Sabbat game. How degenerate are you planning on making this?

Also, I'm not well-versed on the Sabbat in general, so I too couldn't be StoryTeller. Sorry...

Fanog


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 25, 2003)

Fanog said:
			
		

> *How degenerate are you planning on making this?*




I suppose it is up to the DM and the player in question. Remember however, some Sabbat do things to intentionally divorce themselves from their humanity.

It's not uncommon to through parties where humans hang upside down with their throats cut, vampires bathing in blood, etc.

It really depends on the vampire in question. in general, the Tzimisce and Toreador Antitribu are probably the worst, though some Lasombra on the Path of Night can be pretty bad.


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 26, 2003)

Hmm

Are there some other forums on the board where more vampire players frequent?  Maybe we should toss in a request there to see if we can find someone knowledgeable who can run the game?


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## reapersaurus (Apr 27, 2003)

I forget - why can't Catulle run this one too?   

If a Sabbat game is run, and Tory is playing, I would like to play, even though I think the novelty of playing complete degenerates will wear off if we delve into the characters as much as we have in the Camarilla game.

I'd fancy playing a kick-ass Assamite from the East.


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## Tokiwong (Apr 27, 2003)

I wouldn't mind playing   Lasombra or Tzimisce were always my faves... though a Salubri would be cool too


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

I can't really make up my mind on several things I'd like to be.  

A dastardly Tzimisce genius or maybe an assassin-type of character but from what clan, I'm not really sure as I only know about the Tzimisce and not much else about the other Sabbat clans.  Are there clans that specialize in assassinations?

As for the novelty of playing degenerates, well we don't all have to be degenerates.   I know I plan on being one though!  Otherwise it would just be like playing another Camarilla game.

Now we just need to find a ST!  So we can get a world and then come up with characters...


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

Assamites make an excellent assassins


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *Assamites make an excellent assassins  *




What are Assamites?

(lol I guess I should just stick it in a browser and look it up, but I fee lazy)


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

KitanaVorr said:
			
		

> *
> 
> What are Assamites?
> 
> (lol I guess I should just stick it in a browser and look it up, but I fee lazy) *




Vampires from the Middle East, who beleive they will become closer to Caine by committing Diablerie upon other Vampires, they spawned the legends of the hashashin in the East, or as we know them the word assassin 

Oh, and their Discipline is called Quietus, and has many abilities which aid in an assassin's work, at least up front and personal


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

ack!  lol they sound cool too now!

So torn...

so what does quietus do?  Make things quiet?


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

Quietus at lower levels deals with silence, and such, but at higher levels follows the more refined techniques of blood control the Assamites have, and they can create posion from their blood, spit out acidic caustic liquids that burn through just about anything.. and make a Vampire drown in his own blood...

In the Dark Ages, they had the ability to even make a Vampire sweat blood... ahh the good ol' days


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

so now that I've got you trapped, what are the other clans?



cuz now I'm torn between two clans that sound cool, why not more? hehe


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

KitanaVorr said:
			
		

> *so now that I've got you trapped, what are the other clans?
> 
> 
> 
> cuz now I'm torn between two clans that sound cool, why not more? hehe *




better question is what clans do you know of?  There are Antitribu versions of every clan, except Tremere... Antitribu is basically a bloodline, that is apart of the Sabbat


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tokiwong _*
> better question is what clans do you know of?  There are Antitribu versions of every clan, except Tremere... Antitribu is basically a bloodline, that is apart of the Sabbat  *




Aren't the Tzimisce sort of the ones squabbling with the Tremere?  Well I do know about the Antitribu - as in the degenerate version of the Camarilla clans?

ok looking up I see these clans mentioned...Lasombra and Salubri  were mentioned by you.  And what is the Path of Night?


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

the Path of Night is alternate philosphy akin to how Humanity works, but shows how far from Human the vampire has become.... instead of clinging to humanity like the weak Camarilla, Sabbat forsake their humanity and embrace that they are vampires, they are predators... they are not just degenerate, they realize they have nothing in common with humanity anymore... and view humanity like how we view, the cow... food. and a diversion... nothing more... very important difference... which many people do not get 

Anyways, the Tzimisce is a clan steeped in tradition, or at least it used to be, they along with the Lasombra form the core of the Sabbat, the Tzimisce are the fleshcrafters, and the Lasombra are the masters of shadow... the King Makers as opposed to the Venture who would rather be King themselves...

The Lasombra have powers over shadow, and do not have reflections, and they make extensive use of ghoules among the Sabbat, who tend to not use many ghouls at all, besides the Lasombra, and the Tzimisce and their fleshcrafted minions, and ghoule families...

Anyways, the Salubri are a bloodline now, but used to be a full clan before the Tremere took their power, by killing their founder Saulot, who I beelive is now controlling the Tremere, anyways, the Salubri were at one time, known as Healers, and also  warriors, they possess a third eye, which could be tied to Saulot's journey to the East, and his association with the Kindred of the East, or Kuei-Jin, they posses similar disciplines to the abilities of the third eye the Salubri possess

Nowadays the Antitribu Salubri are back with a vengeance, for awhile their numbers were no mroe the seven I beleive, and they would pass on the gift to another, who would then diablerize them, so there would always be seven, but one of them snapped, and created hundreds, and they joined the Sabbat, and want to mete out Justice...

Panders, are pretty much Caitiff, vampires without clan, or bloodline, and well.. whew.. they also have some more exotic bloodlines, but they are not meant for players


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

wow!

Thank you very very much for that nice long post of an explanation.  Hehe its very useful and I really do appreciate it.

So the Salubri  were just 7, then someone created a bunch of them and now there are hundreds and those are called the Antitribu Salubri?

Their gift is a 3rd eye?  What does it do?


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

Well... what does it do... hmmm... in game terms... it does really nothing, but is tied to their Discipline Valeren, which is a path of righteous wrath, and allows them to cause pain to others, and End the Watch (help someone pass on), sense how hurt someone is, a fairly support ability


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

I used to play this game alot, mainly Dark Ages, but have not played in a while, still own alot of White Wolf Books though, m personal faves are the Kindred of the East, the Kuei-Jin


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *I used to play this game alot, mainly Dark Ages, but have not played in a while, still own alot of White Wolf Books though, m personal faves are the Kindred of the East, the Kuei-Jin *




Why's that?  How are they different?

(besides the obvious)


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

just very differnt creatures entirely, they just drain blood, but the life energy of people, they can drain energy from someone's breath, and the more enlightened can take it from Dragon Lines, and places of power...

Oh and they are not bitten and turned, they are all sinners, who went to hell, and for one reason or another returned to Earth as Hungry Ghosts, as some kind of Kharmic Debt, some are fairly obvious like murderers, while others are more specific to the region, such as failing the family, or dishonor, but all Kuei-Jin are demons in a way, and have returned from hell to repay their debt

They are similar to Sabbat, in that they do not care much for humanity, and they recognize they are not human anymore, but something far more, and less, they can have children, depending on what kind of life energy they take, the Yin which is cold, and death like, or the yang, which is vibrant and full of life...

there is more... but well that is the gist, kind of


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

lol oh that sounds familiar I think Barry told me that before.  So what are their weaknesses?


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

hmmm weaknesses... they are weak to wood, and Iron, depending on if they are Yin or Yang balanced... those that have perfect balance, are not weak to either, and by weak i mean can be staked... they are weak against the sun, but can survive much longer then Cainites in some happenstances...


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

hehe

So many to choose from - decisions, decisions!  Well, that's what makes it fun, eh?  Are you sure you don't want to be the Storyteller, Toki?

hmm hmm hmmmmmmmmm?


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

tempting, but I run quite a few games already...  we shall see, Sabbat have always been my fave


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *tempting, but I run quite a few games already...  we shall see, Sabbat have always been my fave *




oh my dear Tokiwong!  Don't you want to pay me back for nearly getting Chase shot in the posterior?  think of all the horrid things you can make happen in Sabbat...

or maybe I shouldn't give you ideas...yeah...esp with what's coming up...yeah...


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 28, 2003)

See here for an overview of the clans of the Sabbat.

Come on Tokiwong!


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

Do you guys want this to be concurrent with the Cammie game, as in a neighboring city or what?  I would need some info


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## KaintheSeeker (Apr 28, 2003)

I'm game if there is room left.. always wanted to play the fence/coffee shop owner that Toki started and never got to finish.


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## Catulle (Apr 28, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *Do you guys want this to be concurrent with the Cammie game, as in a neighboring city or what?  I would need some info  *




Given the nightmare I have linking scenes smoothly in just one game, I'd vote for the other side of the country. Possibly Florida or Mexico city? Just throwing out some ideas, here.

Regards,

Barry


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## Tokiwong (Apr 28, 2003)

Catulle said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Given the nightmare I have linking scenes smoothly in just one game, I'd vote for the other side of the country. Possibly Florida or Mexico city? Just throwing out some ideas, here.
> 
> ...





OOOOOOH.... if I run it, I vote for a European flavor... Barcelona, Spain


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## Catulle (Apr 28, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *OOOOOOH.... if I run it, I vote for a European flavor... Barcelona, Spain  *




Mmmmm... Barcelona... Pretty...

B


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tokiwong _*
> OOOOOOH.... if I run it, I vote for a European flavor... Barcelona, Spain  *




Toki...definitely!

If you run it, you can set it wherever you want to set it.


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## Tokiwong (Apr 29, 2003)

sounds like a plan, need a few days to mull things over


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tokiwong _*
> sounds like a plan, need a few days to mull things over  *




no pressure....


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 29, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *See here for an overview of the clans of the Sabbat.
> 
> Come on Tokiwong!  *




Oh btw, good site!  hehe thanks, ash!


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## Tokiwong (Apr 29, 2003)

Tentative info... Barcelona, Spain, the year is 1978, and the characters should be natives of the region, and they are young Sabbat, just brought into the Sabbat, via a mass-embrace, the city is under the hammer-fist of a Lasombra Arch-Bishop...

Going to be a blast from the past, moving towards the future...  I hope you guys like to disco!


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 29, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *Tentative info... Barcelona, Spain, the year is 1978, and the characters should be natives of the region, and they are young Sabbat, just brought into the Sabbat, via a mass-embrace, the city is under the hammer-fist of a Lasombra Arch-Bishop...
> 
> Going to be a blast from the past, moving towards the future...  I hope you guys like to disco! *




oh yes! Tokiwong!

 

yay!

EDIT:  I believe that about 1976 onwards was the beginning of punk rock in Europe, so if you have disco issues, you can head over to punk!


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## Jemal (Apr 29, 2003)

Edited out -creamsteak


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## Catulle (Apr 29, 2003)

(goes off to dig up some spanish history...)

Sounds fantastic, Tokiwong.

Regards,

Barry


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## Tory Adore (Apr 29, 2003)

Hi there Tokiwong. I'm Tory. I play with Kit, Ash, Jemal, and Catulle in the Camarilla game. I was one of the 3 that wanted to play Tzimisce. I'm considering the Serpents of Light though too. Would that work? I'm with Kit! There are so many choices! So many that look cool to play!


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 29, 2003)

Wow. I know little to nothing about Spain. This is going to be a challenge.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 29, 2003)

Also,

Can we get some character generation details? Max generation? Any house rules?

And, as I said before, I'll definatly be playing a Tzimisce.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 29, 2003)

Oh! If that is the time period, it would be possible to play a Tremere Anitiribu and the Salubri and Harbingers of Skulls wouldn't exist yet.

I think the rest of the Sabbat would be the same though.


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 29, 2003)

Tory - lol I can't decide on choices either!  Everything looks so interesting.  I'll have to do more research about 1970's Spain.

Tzimisce does appeal to me, as does Assamite.  Salubri are interesting, but if as Ash says they're not there at that time then oh well.

One rather interesting addition though, I hinted to Festy and Shalimar that the next game I join that has Shalimar in it, I might play a male character (my first male non-NPC character on the enworld forums!).

So - it might prove interesting after all!


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 29, 2003)

Just thought I would throw in a vote for Montreal (See Montreal by Night) if the setting isn't already set in stone. I think it has a lot of potential.

I can do Spain too though.


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## Tokiwong (Apr 29, 2003)

don't have Montreal, know nothing about, I lived in Spain, done research on Barcelona for other games, so i can wing that, but if you want Montreal cool, I just won't be running it, character info forthcoming, as I said before I need time, before I get everything hammered out the way I want it, but just expect standard rules, no perks and flaws, they irk me, and standard character creation rules for Sabbt by the latest edition rules


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 29, 2003)

Like I said, Spain is fine. I was just throwing that out there.


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## Shalimar (Apr 29, 2003)

Well Tokiwong, what exactly are the latest in the Sabbat creation rules.  The ones in the guide to the Sabbat that give the extra discipline point (I forget the cost as I haven't played a sabbat recently enough to look), or the standard revised edition ones presented in the main rule book.

I created a character for the main book, but hey its easy enough to modify.

The character is a Lasombra on the path of honorable accord.  She followed a somewhat similair path while alive, I would rate her as humanity 5 or so while living, she wasn't monstrous per say, and she did go out of her way to protect people, but she is the ultimate in practicality, she wont hesitate to kill if there is no other way, she does exactly what she says she'll do, even if its mean, even if its nasty or harsh.  Here's a breif bit on the path, and except for the un-life portion and the Sabbat, it pretty much all applied in life.


You dislike those who have no honor. 
You never break your word. 
You live unlife with complete vampiric honor. 
You are very Spartan in your outlook. 
You bend the rules if it suits your personality, though your Path will suffer. 
You always support your comrades. 
You protect any in your charge from harm. 
You are hospitable. 
You are stern and you can be extremely harsh. 
You are loyal to the Sabbat over everything else, including your own safety.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 29, 2003)

My character will be a Tzimisce from the Bratovich line who was a bit of a flesh artist even as a mortal (revenant). He was into tattoos, body piercing and the occult. These things endeared him to his sire who picked him out for the mass embrace.

He was a student of science and philosophy before the embrace and sense his rebirth as one of the undead, he has taken to the Path of Metamorphosis. He believes that there is a defined path of spiritual evolution.

Atoms
Molecules 
Bacteria
Insects
Reptiles
Mammals
Humans
Vampires
???
Gods

He believes that the Tzimisce's gift of Vicissitude grants them, and them alone, the tools necessary to ascend to the next step toward godhood. 

Eventually he will attain his goal, to become a "Naughty Vampire God".


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## Tokiwong (Apr 29, 2003)

no need for Paths yet, you are all newlyu emraced via a mass embrace... as a matter of fact it would be best that we roleplay the loss of humanity, as the philosophy of the Sabbat takes root


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 29, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *no need for Paths yet, you are all newlyu emraced via a mass embrace... as a matter of fact it would be best that we roleplay the loss of humanity, as the philosophy of the Sabbat takes root  *




Thats cool too. 
In that case, my characters concept will be more like: "I'm a bloodsucking creature of the night? Cool!"


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## Catulle (Apr 29, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *no need for Paths yet, you are all newly emraced via a mass embrace... as a matter of fact it would be best that we roleplay the loss of humanity, as the philosophy of the Sabbat takes root  *




I _like_ the way you think.

Regards,

Barry


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## Fanog (Apr 29, 2003)

Hi again,

as I said earlier, I don't know that much about Sabbat games, but I find the mass embrace idea intriguing. How 'massive' are these things, might it be possibly that a person is embraced who wouldn't automatically accept the Sabbat ways?

BTW, it this game even open to more players, or is it already full with those from the other Vampire game? That would save me some thinking of whether I would like to be in this game or not.  

Fanog, likes Vampire, but is probably not hard-boiled enough to play a true Sabbat member. :/ (take that smiley how you will, I'm not sure myself..)


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 29, 2003)

Fanog said:
			
		

> *Hi again,
> 
> As I said earlier, I don't know that much about Sabbat games, but I find the mass embrace idea intriguing. How 'massive' are these things, might it be possibly that a person is embraced who wouldn't automatically accept the Sabbat ways?*




I'd say no more than ten or so at a time with only about a third of them making it through. They are all buried together and usually a few are destroyed as the others claw their way free.

And yes, it is entirelly possible to disagree with the Sabbat's ideas.

However, there is something that I haven't seen mentioned yet, and that is the Viniculum. This is where all of the members of a pack mix their blood together in a rituel. Once the rituel is complete, they all drink from it. This creates a limited blood bond between all members of the pack and destroys any existing bonds they previously had. So while you may noy agree with your fellow pack members, you will have a degree of loyalty to them.

That said, there are plenty of Cainites (this is the Sabbat's term for vampires instead of "Kindred") who try to retain their humanity.


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## Tory Adore (Apr 29, 2003)

KitanaVorr said:
			
		

> *One rather interesting addition though, I hinted to Festy and Shalimar that the next game I join that has Shalimar in it, I might play a male character (my first male non-NPC character on the enworld forums!). So - it might prove interesting after all!  *



That would be cool Kit!


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## Tokiwong (Apr 29, 2003)

*Nitty Gritty...*

*Modified Character Creation*

*Concept:* This should be self-explanatory, but each character should have a strong sense of concept, but this concept should deal with who that person was, *before* the embrace.

*Attributes:* Normal (7/5/3)

*Abilities:* 13/9/5, again as normal, though they should reflect what kind of person that individual was before the embrace.

*Advantages:* Here is where things get tricky, Characters will start with 4 points for Disciplines, but no Background points.  All Backgrounds must be bought with Freebie Points, and the most probable are Generation, Mentor, and perhaps Herd, though any may apply if they fit the character.  Each characters gets 5 points to disburse amongst their virtues, they are fresh Sabbat.

*Freebie Points:* These are reduced, to only 8 points, to reflect the relative youth of the character, but I will award bonus points throughout play to make up for this fact.

*The Fluff*

*Setting:* Barcelona spain at the close of the 70's, the summer of 1978 to be more precise.  Amidst a beautiful backdrop we shall tell the story of lives shattered, and drug into the abyss, that is the Long Night...

*Theme:* The themes in the stories I hope to tell will be Damnation and Existence, an exploration of what drags a being into darkness, and how one survives as a Sabbat vampire...

*Mood:* The mood of the story will hopefully be one of Fear and Anger, with a hint of Lust, and violence.  The stories will be intense at times, and I will try not to pull any punches, the Sabbat are nasty, SoB's but they have a reason for the way they are.  I hope it should not be said, but I do not condone some of the acts I shall portray in the story, if anyone has any hang-ups or taboo topics, now is the time to voice them, because even litlle Timmy is going to get his... so to speak.  The rating would be NC-17, though we shall keep in mind people's Grandmother's and children.  But this is important, so I don't offend people, my stories can be in your face, especially with Vampire...

Anyways, any questions, shoot... I shall be popping onto the thread to monitor what is going on... Playing wise, I am not sure, who is interested and who isn't post that you still want to play and I can get a roster going.


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## Tory Adore (Apr 30, 2003)

Fear, anger, lust, violence? I'm in! I don't have any taboos or hang-ups, so whatever you decide to do is okay with me.

Are there any clans that will not work with the story? Or anything you don't want to see? Sabbat is pretty much ALL new to me, so patience and help as well as links to info are always appreciated. Plus this is only my second game to play online, so please if I mess up just let me know.

When do you want our characters by? Do you want them by e:mail?

Tory


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## Tokiwong (Apr 30, 2003)

Post them here, no need to clutter me email, any clan is fine.. though Salubri Antitribu, and the Harbingers of Skulls are not available... Tremere Antitribu are avilable, though I don't reccomend them


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## KaintheSeeker (Apr 30, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *Post them here, no need to clutter me email, any clan is fine.. though Salubri Antitribu, and the Harbingers of Skulls are not available... Tremere Antitribu are avilable, though I don't reccomend them  *





Yeah there is no futre in being a roman candle.


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 30, 2003)

I'm interested Toki (if you hadn't noticed)

Deciding on Tzimisce or Assamite at the moment.


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## Shalimar (Apr 30, 2003)

Katrina is an under-cover cop.  The division she belonged to in life was not a conventional one in the slightest, they played the part of the criminals, the bad guys, to get in touch with and stop the bigger bad guys.  It didn't sweat the little crimes, in fact it encouraged them when neccessary as it always takes some convincing.  It took a special type of person to be able to fit the squad.  They had to be able to let themself go to an extent, but beyond that point not an inch further.  She fit the mold required, she was ok with violence for a purpouse, but still did not injure just to injure.

She was on vacation in Spain, a stop over in Barcelona before continuing on to the Island paradise of Izbetha, when she was caught up in the mass embrace.  She stands 5'3" with curly black hair that brushes the tips of her shoulders, her eyes are a dark dark brown that is almost black when she isn't wearing purple contact lenses.  Her eyebrows and a locke of hair over each eye is dyed purple.  She can be described as lithe, and has trim athletic figure.  Since her embrace she has not had any contact with her former life and she doesn't have any real plans to do so.  She doesn't kill her 'juice bags' not when she can help it at all, but she doesn't go hungry either.  She has her own honor code that she follows, and will die before breaking it.

If you are familiar with the shows fastlane or mod squad, that is what I am aiming at with Katrina.

Katrina Sterling
Lasombra
Survivor/ Deviant
Gen 8th

Strength 3
Dexterity 4 Lightening reflexes
Stamina 3

Charisma 2
Manipulation 3
Appearance 3

Perception 2
Intelligence 2
Wits 2

Knowledge’s: 5
Investigation: 2
Law: 1
Linguistics: 1
Occult: 1

Talents: 13
Alertness: 2
Athletics: 2
Brawl: 2
Dodge: 3 
Street wise: 2
Subterfuge: 2

Skills: 9
Drive: 1
Fire arms: 2
Melee: 2
Security: 2 
Stealth: 2

Generation 5
Mentor 2

Disciplines:
Dominate:1
Obtenebration: 2
Potence: 1

Conscience: 1
Self-Control: 3
Courage: 4

Blood Pool: 15
Humanity: 5
Willpower: 5


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 30, 2003)

Here are my two concepts and I'm having trouble deciding which one....


*Juan Valentín de Marcos, Tzimisce*

Only son of the powerful Count de Lagos, he's quite the wastrel playboy, spending all his time wining and dining women, traveling the world for no purpose other than simple pleasure.  The amount of money he spent without a care to his future fortunes was staggering.

Upon returning to Espana, his father immediately demanded that his heir shape up his life and stay out of the tabloids.  Juan refused to give up his pleasures and his father cut him off, hoping that it would reform his son's spoiled nature and force him to do something productive with his life.

Wandering in the streets a drunken stupor after one spetacular party to drown his current financial problems, he found himself  caught in a mass embrace and sworn into an unlife with power he had never dreamed possible.


*Mariasha de los Angeles, Assamite*

Her name says it all..."bitterness of the angels" and mixture of her Egyptian and Spanish heritage.  After her father left her mother before she was born, her Egyptian mother dropped her father's family name and added her own chosen surname.  An angelic creature born in bitterness...yet Mariasha also means "perfect one" and so she is that is born will straddle between what is light and what is dark.

One thing set her apart from the others.  She excelled at Zipota, the Basque unarmed fight discipline.  Soon a mysterious invitation to attend a little known fighting school was issued and she joined.  For the next seven years she studied hard and become the best in her class

Ammon, her mentor, looked after her and her family.  He was the cruelest and most difficult task master, but out of all the pupils, she seemed to hold the most favor with him.  And then that fateful night when she finally discovered who he was - the night of the mass embraced when honor was bestowed upon her.

EDIT: to change Maya's name and history


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## Shalimar (Apr 30, 2003)

If it matters I like Maya, though I wont let you off the hook as far as a relationship between her and Kat if Kat makes the cut.


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 30, 2003)

btw

1978 is when Spain became a democratic government with constitutional monarchy

here is a good pages for some brief history -  a good start to get the feel of the country of your new origin!

http://www.sispain.org/english/history/index.html
http://www.sispain.org/english/index.html



I, of course, know nothing of the vampire history as it what it was like in 1978 so I"ll need some help with that...


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 30, 2003)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> *If it matters I like Maya, though I wont let you off the hook as far as a relationship between her and Kat if Kat makes the cut. *




hehe ok then - either one I pick is coming after Kat - time to exercise my charm skills I suppose

 

Shall it be the unrepentant charmer or the ruthless warrior?

decisions decisions...


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## Catulle (Apr 30, 2003)

Here's what I was thinking at the present point; commentary would be most definitely welcome, since it's all a bit rough-hewn at the moment:


Ramon Massó

An ambitious artist, both following in the footsteps of and idolising Salvador Dali. His chosen medium is sculpture, and was quite willing to plumb the depths to spark his inspiration, a trait which has led him into addiction and degradation behind a cool facade.

He has acquired a degree of infamy in the past years, regarded as something of an enfant terrible (or should that be el niño revoltoso?), and has run with a distinctly political slant to his art and publicity. In fact, he mirrors in a number of ways the approach of the French surrealists who shunned his distant mentor, though his chosen cause is that of Catalan nationalism.

His Embrace came from a Malkavian antitribu who was quite the fan. The Freak been feeding from him for a few months, the blood loss fuelling him into a maelstrom of creativity, when the call to the creation rites went out. The rather lazy Cainite simply took the most convenient prey on a walk, "to get some air", and the rest was much as may be expected.


Thoughts? Ideas?

Regards,

Barry


Edit: To add name.


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 30, 2003)

I like it. 

Salvador Dali is a nice touch and quite fitting.  The Catalan nationalism should prove to be an interesting slant on things depending on the political leanings of the rest of the group.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 30, 2003)

I'm in. Tzimisce character comming soon.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 30, 2003)

...stupid double post...


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 30, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *...stupid double post...  *




well...we all know what happens when you get excited  

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Mr. Tzimisce


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 30, 2003)

KitanaVorr said:
			
		

> *
> 
> well...we all know what happens when you get excited
> 
> Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Mr. Tzimisce *




 

Me too.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 30, 2003)

How long have we been vampires?

Also, are we using the Vicissitude as a disease rules from the player's Guide to the Sabbat?


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 30, 2003)

*Rough Draft*

*Ash Bratovich*
*10th Generation Tzimisce (Bratovich) *
*Nature*: Visionary
*Demeanor*: Monster
*Concept*: Pack Priest
*Sire*: Deitrich 

*Physical*
Strength: 3
Dexterity: 3
Stamina: 3 (Bone plates have been added in exchange for one health level)

*Social*
Charisma: 2
Manipulation: 3
Appearance: 4 (Originally 1, but increased with Vicissitude)

*Mental*
Perception: 3
Intelligence: 4
Wits: 3

*Talents*
Alertness: 2
Athletics: 2
Brawl: 2
Dodge: 2
Empathy: 0
Expression: 0
Intimidation: 0
Leadership: 0
Streetwise: 1
Subterfuge: 0

*Skills*
Animal Ken: 0
Crafts (Body): 3
Drive: 1
Etiquette: 0
Firearms: 0
Melee: 1
Performance: 0
Security: 0
Survival: 0
Stealth :0

*Knowledges*
Academics: 3
Computer: 0
Finance: 0
Investigation: 1
Law: 0
Linguistics: 1 (Spanish)
Medicine: 2
Occult: 3
Politics:  0
Science: 3

*Disciplines*
Vicissitude: 3
Auspex: 1

*Virtues*
Conscience: 1
Self Control: 3
Courage: 4

The Path of Humanity: 4
Blood Pool: 13 Max
Willpower: 7

*Backgrounds*
Resources:1 (Money is often taken from prey.)
Generation:3
Mentor:1 (Deitrich teaches Ash flesh crafting techniques and about the Path of Metamorphosis)

*Clan Weakness*
Ash sleeps with a handful of soil taken from the sight of his embrace and burial.

*Possessions*
Bone Sword: Dmg: Str+2*
Remington 870P: Dmg 8
Reinforced clothing: (Bashing: +2, Melee: +1)

*Ash has relocated two of his ribs to his right arm and sculpted them into the form of a serrated blade of bone. By restructuring his forearm muscles, he is now able to make the foot long blade emerge from the back of his hand or re-sheath itself in his forearm. When sheathed, his forearm looks slightly deformed as its muscles have been rearranged to allow for the blade. He has sculpted his left arm in the same manner, but it contains no blade. He did this for ascetic purposes so that both arms look the same.

* Appearance*
At first glance, Ash looks like the typical street punk of the times. He looks to have been embraced in his late teens or early twenties. Being a tattoo artist in his semi-mortal life, he is covered in various forms of “tribal art” and imagery. The centerpiece, is a black sun adorning his chest, with various patterns radiating outward. Dragons intertwine down his arms and it seems the only place free of art is his face.

As a revenant of the Bratovich family, he had learned a bit about the fleshcrafting arts even before his embrace into Clan Tzimisce. Born an unattractive child, Ash has made great strides to rectify this. His body is perfectly symmetrical and he could easily pass for a model where it not for the tattoos and other modifications. These other modifications take the form of bone spurs at the end of each elbow, his shoulders, and a row of tiny spikes emerging from his sternum and ribs. In fact, his ribs have been fused together into a solid plate and excess bone has been relocated to his shoulders to form a sort of subdermal armor. Smaller changes take the form of sharpened, black fingernails and eyes that appear to be solid black orbs.

In private, Ash wears a dark red and black robes cut to accent his heavily modified body. In public, he wears black leather pants, combat boots, and a long black leather trench coat. No matter what time of year, he wears no shirt underneath the coat. He prefers to show off his body art. He does however; wear a pair of small ruby red John Lennon style sunglasses when in public to cover his frightening eyes. His preternatural senses are only slightly hampered by wearing the glasses at night. 

He has long black hair that is typically worn in dozens of tiny braids. His hair is very short on the sides and in the back and the length of his hair on top hangs down to the middle of his back. Intricate patterns adorn both sides and the back of his head. However, unless his hair is pulled up, you wouldn’t know the sides and back where so short.


*Background*

Ash came to Spain from Romania in 1972. His family was in the service of an influential Tzimisce who required them to make the move with him. Mere days after their arrival, their master Zantoff Dracov was diablorized by his childe, Deitrich. Deitrich had no use for the revenant family at the time, and so left them on their own. 

The Bratoviches, along with Ash, decided to stay in Barcelona and make a new life for themselves free of their undead master. However, a year ago, Deitrich decided to check up on the former servants of his sire. When he encountered Ash working in a tattoo parlor, he decided the young revenant might make a good candidate for the embrace.

Ash was definitely different from the others his age. His revenant heritage gave him incredible strength, health,  and he had managed to learn a little about the art of fleshcrafting. Despite this, he kept his background secret and went on to attend collage like a normal human though he knew there was more out there for him. It seemed Spain had a lot more to offer than the backwoods hills of Romania. 

Ash continued going to school and with his work at the parlor, unknowing that he was being watched. His studies in the fields of science and philosophy, as well as his aptitude with the flesh, kept Deitrich interested. Finally, a mass embrace was to be held, and he decided to give Ash the gift of immortality.

Ash survived the ordeal, and quickly began adapting to life as a vampire. He had always known about them, but was never allowed to take part. Now was his chance. Unlike most fledglings, Ash took to his new form with zeal. Life had just gotten a lot more interesting. 

Detrich has been the hand guiding him through this new unlife. He has already taught him more than he could ever imagine about the flesh shaping arts and has recently been talking to him about something called the Path of Metamorphosis and the destiny of his kind. 

----------------------------------------------

This ok Toki?


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## KitanaVorr (May 1, 2003)

whoa!

;p

Send some Vicissitude my way!

Anyway, I'm still flipping back and forth between the two choices...I think I'll do them both up fully and then decide. I updated the assamite one with a new name and history.

They both have something which appeals to me and that makes it difficult.  lol too bad I can't play both of them!


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

KitanaVorr said:
			
		

> *whoa!
> 
> ;p
> 
> Send some Vicissitude my way! *




I'll take that as a compliment.


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## Shalimar (May 1, 2003)

I think we are very newly rising out of our mass grave so I think that to do all that stuff it has to be in front of us Ash.  Kat's reaction is going to be, cool, me next.


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## Tokiwong (May 1, 2003)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> *I think we are very newly rising out of our mass grave so I think that to do all that stuff it has to be in front of us Ash.  Kat's reaction is going to be, cool, me next. *




That is correct, *DO NOT* worry about any vampiric stuff for your background, as amatter of fact, unless your character had prior contact or in some cases comes from a line that knows of them, you know nothing... focus more so on who that character is, as a person... the Vampiric stuff for character creation is for ease of play down the line, the powers that will manifest as the characters learns who they are, I as as the ST will grant each Discipline as deemed, to show a growth into the Vampiric mindset.... I hope that makes sense


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

Ok. So as a Bratovich Revenant, I had at least one point of Vicissitude before the embrace. Thats not enough to do any more than raise my Appearance score.

I can have the increased Appearance right?


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *
> ....I as as the ST will grant each Discipline as deemed, to show a growth into the Vampiric mindset.... I hope that makes sense *




Do you mean each point from here forward, or that we shouldn't put any points in disciplines at all right now?


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## Tokiwong (May 1, 2003)

I mean buy the Disciplines you want, and you will manifest them throughout the storyline  for the first story, as you are all reborn, and yes the Bratovich angle is fine but he can increase his Apperance by one point, though it usually costs a Willpower point, to do so since it is Difficulty 10 to do so...  his Apperance can be 2 to start, but with a Craft (body) 3 score, 4 would be a life works, since difficulty 10 is considered nearly an Impossible task


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

I put a point in backgrounds, Mentor.... should I remove that and just get my mentor though role-playing?


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## Tokiwong (May 1, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *I put a point in backgrounds, Mentor.... should I remove that and just get my mentor though role-playing? *




you can keep it, I will Provide him with a Mentor during play commensurate to the rating  gives me stuff to work with


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## Shalimar (May 1, 2003)

Maybe Toki means that we allocate our 4 dots of disciplines, and then as time goes on during the game we learn to understand what we have.  We have them, we just can't use them till we understand how to do it.  Some things might be a bit easier to understand then others though.  Like potence would be very easy to understand, obtenebration not so much.  I would think physical disciplines would be fairly easy, potence, celerity, fortitude, but the more estoric ones should take a little bit of time.


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## Tokiwong (May 1, 2003)

That is exactly what I mean Shalimar


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

Cool.. Toki

And yea, I see what you are saying Shali. 

Toki - How do you want me to treat that one level of Auspex? I'm not sure if heightened senses is something you can learn. I was thinking about approaching it in the same manner as Anne Rice did. He crawls from the grave and marvels at the world as seen for the first time through the "eyes of a vampire".


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

Will the game begin with us crawling free of the grave? If not, exactly how much time has passed?


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## Shalimar (May 1, 2003)

Mr. Bratovich will be using his disciplines to enhance the beauty of his pack, yes?


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> *Mr. Bratovich will be using his disciplines to enhance the beauty of his pack, yes? *




Well... that depends on what you need done, why you want it done, and what you can do for him.  

Actually, once he starts down the Path of Metamorphosis he may stop altering others except to disfigure and hurt them. If you come to him because you want to look pretty, he will probably turn you down. If you come seeking "perfection", he might help you out. That is, assuming he agrees with your concept of perfection. He may instead decide to "perfect" you his own way.  

However, at the start of the chronical, he will be more concerned with using his new powers for amusement. So yea, at first it will be pretty easy to convince him. However, he will probably want something in return.

After all, the vampiric form is unchangable. The Tzimisce are the only ones capable of change, and causing change. They know this, and they don't hand out favors lightly.

Mwahaha! This will be fun.

EDIT - The revised version of Ash that I am working on will be 9th gen. All changes he does to vampires of 10gen + will be permanent. Changes to vampires of 9th gen and lower will be healed as aggravated damage. I'm not sure if the damage is automaticly healed, or if it is done willingly. That call is up to Toki.


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## Shalimar (May 1, 2003)

How about Kat won't kick his ass?  She lets him work with the almost perfect canvas that is herself  ?  Er maybe he just needs a good lay?  If he is a tatoo artist then he aand she have some of the same tastes, probably, well at least till he really starts down the path.

I think though her requests are going to be rather tame, at first.  Maybe a row of tiny bone spurs going down her spine and ending over her butt, sharpening her nails maybe.  Just cosmetic stuff at first.  And may I say about the moving you ribs around and stuff like that, ICK! though maybe moving your heart up and into your skull could be cool, and pretty well protected.


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## Shalimar (May 1, 2003)

> * PAGE 185 Vampire the Masquerade*
> 
> Vampires of equal or lower generation *MAY* heal the effects of Vicissitude as though they were aggravated wounds.




It makes it sounds that if the target is the same generation or lower they have the power to undo it if they wish to, but are not forced to.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> *I think though her requests are going to be rather tame, at first.  Maybe a row of tiny bone spurs going down her spine and ending over her butt, sharpening her nails maybe.  Just cosmetic stuff at first.  *



*

He wouldn't have a problem with that early on. I'm sure it wouldn't take much to convince him.




			And may I say about the moving you ribs around and stuff like that, ICK!....
		
Click to expand...


*
My work here is done.  

I'm adding a little more to Ash's personality and will be posting it in a few. I already had him pretty well worked out, but I feel better now that it is in ink ...err... pixels..... whatever.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> *How about Kat won't kick his ass?  *




You could, but you may regret it once he attains the Horrid Form.  

Mwahahaa just one little dot away.....


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

*Rough Draft #2 - A little less rough.*

*Ash Bratovich*
*9th Generation Tzimisce (Bratovich) *
*Nature*: Visionary
*Demeanor*: Monster / Visionary
*Concept*: Pack Priest
*Sire*: Deitrich 

*Physical*
Strength: 3
Dexterity: 3
Stamina: 2

*Social*
Charisma: 2
Manipulation: 3
Appearance: 2 (Originally 1, but increased with Vicissitude)

*Mental*
Perception: 3
Intelligence: 4
Wits: 3

*Talents*
Alertness: 2
Athletics: 2
Brawl: 2
Dodge: 2
Empathy: 0
Expression: 0
Intimidation: 0
Leadership: 0
Streetwise: 1
Subterfuge: 0

*Skills*
Animal Ken: 0
Crafts (Body): 3
Drive: 1
Etiquette: 0
Firearms: 0
Melee: 1
Performance: 0
Security: 0
Survival: 0
Stealth :0

*Knowledges*
Academics: 3
Computer: 0
Finance: 0
Investigation: 1
Law: 0
Linguistics: 1 (Spanish)
Medicine: 2
Occult: 3
Politics:  0
Science: 3

*Disciplines*
Vicissitude: 3
Auspex: 1

*Virtues*
Conscience: 1
Self Control: 2
Courage: 5

The Path of Humanity: 3
Blood Pool: 14 Max
Willpower: 7

*Backgrounds*
Resources:1 (Money is often taken from prey.)
Generation:4
Mentor:1 (Deitrich teaches Ash flesh crafting techniques and about the Path of Metamorphosis)

*Clan Weakness*
Ash sleeps with a handful of soil taken from the sight of his embrace and burial.

*Possessions*
Remington 870P: Dmg 8
Reinforced clothing: (Bashing: +2, Melee: +1)

* Appearance*
At first glance, Ash looks like the typical street punk of the times. He looks to have been embraced in his late teens or early twenties. Being a tattoo artist in his semi-mortal life, he is covered in various forms of “tribal art” and imagery. The centerpiece, is a black sun adorning his chest, with various patterns radiating outward. Dragons intertwine down his arms and it seems the only place free of art is his face.

As a revenant of the Bratovich family, he had learned a bit about the fleshcrafting arts even before his embrace into Clan Tzimisce. Born an unattractive child, Ash has made great strides to rectify this. His body is perfectly symmetrical and he still continues to this night to augment and “perfect” his physical form. However, it will take a great deal of effort to overcome the hand he was dealt at birth. A smaller change take the form of sharpened, black fingernails.

In private, Ash wears a dark red and black robes cut to accent his heavily modified body. In public, he wears black leather pants, combat boots, and a long black leather trench coat. No matter what time of year, he wears no shirt underneath the coat. He prefers to show off his body art. He does however; wear a pair of small ruby red John Lennon style sunglasses when in public to cover his frightening eyes. His preternatural senses are only slightly hampered by wearing the glasses at night. 

He has long black hair that is typically worn in dozens on tiny braids. His hair is very short on the sides and in the back and the length of his hair on top hangs down to the middle of his back. Intricate patterns adorn both sides and the back of his head. However, unless his hair is pulled up, you wouldn’t know the sides and back where so short.


*Background*

Ash came to Spain from Romania in 1972. His family was in the service of an influential Tzimisce who required them to make the move with him. Mere days after their arrival, their master Zantoff Dracov was diablorized by his childe, Deitrich. Deitrich had no use for the revenant family at the time, and so left them on their own. 

The Bratoviches, along with Ash, decided to stay in Barcelona and make a new life for themselves free of their undead master. However, a year ago, Deitrich decided to check up on the former servants of his sire. When he encountered Ash working in a tattoo parlor, he decided the young revenant might make a good candidate for the embrace.

Ash was definitely different from the others his age. His revenant heritage gave him incredible strength, health,  and he had managed to learn a little about the art of fleshcrafting. Despite this, he kept his background secret and went on to attend collage like a normal human though he knew there was more out there for him. It seemed Spain had a lot more to offer than the backwoods hills of Romania. 

Ash continued going to school and with his work at the parlor, unknowing that he was being watched. His studies in the fields of science and philosophy, as well as his aptitude with the flesh, kept Deitrich interested. Finally, a mass embrace was to be held, and he decided to give Ash the gift of immortality.

Ash survived the ordeal, and quickly began adapting to life as a vampire. He had always known about them, but was never allowed to take part. Now was his chance. Unlike most fledglings, Ash took to his new form with zeal. Life had just gotten a lot more interesting. 

*Personality*

Ash has always led a hard life. Despite being a very intelligent and deep minded person, he enjoys getting lost in the mindlessness of loud music and chaos. Having grown up in a family devoted to the servitude of a Fiend, Ash always admired his liege’s power and the respect he commanded. The few times he saw his master, he was shaken and awed. He dreamed of one day being like him.

Despite his pseudo-mortality, Ash has never been very humane. As a child he delighted at the sense of power he gained from killing small animals. As he grew, this only got worse. He was a bully to the other kids, and loved to hunt animals to prove his dominance. As he developed a limited use of Vicissitude, he would often capture his prey alive and experiment with it. Now, as an adult, he still has some of those same desires. He is very experimental and has a strong thirst for knowledge. 

Perhaps due to his extremely dysfunctional childhood, Ash suffers from what almost seems to be multiple personalities. He can go from howling at the moon in an orgy of blood to a state of quiet introspection and enlightenment.

His desire to learn is only matched by his desire for pleasure. He lived a mortal life of “sex, drugs, and rock and roll”. As a vampire, his lifestyle has changed to “blood, soul, and rock and roll”.

He has always considered himself a step above the mortal cattle of the world. He has been in jail multiple times for arson, armed robbery, and assault and battery. Now, as a vampire, he knows that there are no boundaries that can’t be crossed and he intends to cross them all.


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## Shalimar (May 1, 2003)

Well she wouldn't know he could eventually enter into the form, so she would kick his butt now anyway, Create a cloud of darkness so he couldn't see, then go to town on him with her potence enhanced, and possibly blood enhanced strength.  We might turn out to be too tough for anything but a war pack.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 1, 2003)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> *Well she wouldn't know he could eventually enter into the form, so she would kick his butt now anyway, Create a cloud of darkness so he couldn't see, then go to town on him with her potence enhanced, and possibly blood enhanced strength.  We might turn out to be too tough for anything but a war pack. *






To a degree, war is a way of life for the Sabbat. 

As far as the Horrid Form goes, I have to say I love it for its role playing potential as much as it's butt kicking potential.

There is the universal question: "Why do all the Tzimisce have the same war form?"

Which reminds me, I never got an answer from our illustrious Storyteller about Vicissitude being a disease. If I get a vote, I'd say yes. I like the fact that some Tzimisce can learn it faster at the cost of their sanity and I have already played upon that a little in Ash's background. He isn't exactly 100% stable.


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## Tokiwong (May 1, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *Will the game begin with us crawling free of the grave? If not, exactly how much time has passed? *




Pretty much ith one foot in the grave, I will describe events leading up to the embrace, and then blam the embrace.... and the game begins, so think seconds, hell some of you may still be interred during the first post   I am looking at maybe a week or so before we begind research, and prep and time to hammer out any details...

Not sure on the Tzimisce discipline being a Disease or not... I will read up on how that works, and see if I wish to add it, I aim to keep this pretty simple, and not make my job any harder then it has to be


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## Catulle (May 1, 2003)

Heya,

Well, things seem to be coming together pretty well at this stage; I'm certainly learning a lot in the process of researching Catalan history and 'national' identity. I'm pretty well settled on the concept I posted, though the stats are taking a little longer than anticipated. I'd be interested in developing him in the direction of the Path of Power and the Inner Voice - a kind of meditant, visionary approach to enlightenment rather than the 'dominate eveybody around me' kind (I worry about this path in play a lot myself, so I think I'd be responsible). Though all this would happen in play, of course, would it be a workable objective for me to set myself?

As a question for Tokiwong and, well, all of you: as you might be aware, I have a girlfriend who has been casting me curious looks over the past few months since I signed up here, ("what are you doing?" has become a staple greeting) and she'd be interested in giving online roleplaying a whirl - would there be space for Helen to join in here? I know we could be a little heavily subscribed already, so I'd quite understand if it's not a goer.

Regards,

Barry


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## Fanog (May 1, 2003)

Barry and others,

if it matters and for your information, I have decided to let this game slide. I don't think a Sabbat game is my kind of game at the moment. I'll just lurk this one. 

Have fun all, I'll be sure to follow your, er... _progression_. 

Fanog


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## Catulle (May 1, 2003)

*A work in progress*

*Ramon Massó*
*13th Generation Malkavian antitribu* 
*Nature:* Visionary
*Demeanour:* Guru
*Concept:* Sculptor in ideas

*Physical*
Strength: 2
Dexterity: 4 (steady hands)
Stamina: 2

*Social*
Charisma: 2
Manipulation: 5 (persuasive)
Appearance: 3

*Mental*
Perception: 3
Intelligence: 2
Wits: 1

*Talents*
Alertness: 1
Athletics: 1
Empathy: 3
Expression: 2
Intimidation: 3
Streetwise: 1
Subterfuge: 2

*Skills*
Crafts: Sculpture 4 (surealist)
Melee: 2

*Knowledges*
Academics: 2
Law: 1
Linguistics: 2 (Catalan, French)
Politics: 3
Occult: 1

*Backgrounds*
Fame: 2
Resources: 2 (a house and bank account)

*Disciplines*
Dementation: 4

*Virtues*
Conscience: 1
Self Control: 4
Courage: 3

*Humanity:* 5
*Willpower:* 5
*Blood Pool:* 10

*Clan Weakness*
Permanent derangement: Overcompensation
Malkavian _antitribu_ may never spend Willpower to resist Frenzy.

8 Freebies; bought 4 backgrounds, 2 willpower, 1 skill


An ambitious artist, both following in the footsteps of and idolising Salvador Dali. His chosen medium is sculpture, and was quite willing to plumb the depths to spark his inspiration, a trait which has led him into addiction and degradation behind a cool facade.

He has acquired a degree of infamy in the past years, regarded as something of an enfant terrible (or should that be el niño revoltoso?), and has run with a distinctly political slant to his art and publicity. In fact, he mirrors in a number of ways the approach of the French surrealists who shunned his distant mentor, though his chosen cause is that of Catalan nationalism.

His Embrace came from a Malkavian antitribu who was quite the fan. The Freak been feeding from him for a few months, the blood loss fuelling him into a maelstrom of creativity, when the call to the creation rites went out. The rather lazy Cainite simply took the most convenient prey on a walk, "to get some air", and the rest was much as may be expected.


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## Catulle (May 1, 2003)

Fanog said:
			
		

> *Have fun all, I'll be sure to follow your, er... progression.
> 
> Fanog *



And I hope we entertain you!

Regards,

Barry


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## Shalimar (May 1, 2003)

I'd personally love to play with her.  But the numbers are up to Tokiwong.


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## KitanaVorr (May 1, 2003)

Hey Barry

I'm all for Helen joining in if she's willing!  I'd like to meet the Saint that puts up with you.


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## Tory Adore (May 2, 2003)

I think it would be very cool if Helen would like to come and play with us! I know Reap and I have had a good time playing in Catulle's game together, and I think Helen would be a very good addition to our group.


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## Tokiwong (May 2, 2003)

Not going to go against popular opinion, but I am still not sure just how many players we have, more then 8 may be unwieldy in an a PBP


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 2, 2003)

*Re: A work in progress*



			
				Catulle said:
			
		

> *
> Disciplines
> Dementation: 4
> *




Can we start with disciplines over 3 points? I think the main rules sets level 3 as the limit for new characters. 

I think you can go over with freebie points, but we don't have enough to do that and have more than one dot in backgrounds.

EDIT - As far as the number of PCs goes, I say the more the merrier. Of course, I'm not the Storyteller either.


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## Tokiwong (May 2, 2003)

lets limit it to 3 for now, or it will tak a long while to start manifesting those upper level abilities


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## Tokiwong (May 2, 2003)

6-8 players will be good for me, and I think we have about that amount if not less  smaller I usually better for me, cause I can give each character their own stories and hooks much easier


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## KitanaVorr (May 2, 2003)

well so far we have 4 characters presented

Shali's Kat
Catulle's Ramon
Ash's Ash
And me still dithering between Juan and Mariasha, but it will be one of the two.  Hey I could always combine them into one character...er...a vapid assamite playboy? hehehe.....

Tory, Jemal, Reaper, Helen, um...I know there are more but I can't think of the names at the moment...but these are the others who have expressed an interest.


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## Tory Adore (May 2, 2003)

I have mine almost finished. I will post her in the afternoon today.


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## reapersaurus (May 2, 2003)

OK, is a Mass Embrace ALWAYS the way Sabbat are made?
It just seems kind of.... silly and random to me.  

Could someone explain how it works?
Are Sabbat as particular in who they Embrace, considering that there's probably a lot of attrition in who survives the ordeal, what point would there be in going to huge lengths to make sure the candidate is the 'perfect' fit?

Does the sponser/Sire just bring someone they nominate to "the party", drain them, give 'em some blood, shove 'em in a grave, and see who comes out?

Sounds novel... once.
More than that, and it sounds rather ham-handed to me.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 2, 2003)

No. In fact, mass embraces are fairly rare. The Tzimisce, Assamites, and especially the Lasombra, can be very picky. In fact, I'd say the Lasombra are about the most picky clan there is. They often embrace "the normal way".

The reason? If any member of Clan Lasombra can be proven by a fellow member of his clan that he isn't fit to be a member of Clan Lasombra, the clan elders grant the right to diablorize the incompetant vampire. No pressure... really.  

However, mass embraces serve several functions. One, it is a bonding experience for new packs. Also, only about a third of the vampires buried make it out. The Sabbat are very strong proponants of "survival of the fittest". They figure that if you didn't make it out, you didn't have what it takes to be a member of the Sword of Caine (fancy name for the Sabbat).

A lot of vampires will spend a bit of time watching their potential progeny. Then they pitch them into the grave and hope they make it out.

Some vampires aren't so lucky though. Sometimes the mass embrace is done for no other reason than to fill the ranks with cannon fodder during times of war. When this happens, the vampires that created them really don't care if the make it out or not. Those who survive the grave are put on the front lines. Then, those who survive the battles are sometimes approached by their sires and welcomed into the clan. Others are just killed or ignored if their sire doesn't want them.

The Tzimisce, Lasombra, and a few other clans try to make sure they don't leave many strays around, but it does happen.


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## Shalimar (May 2, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *OK, is a Mass Embrace ALWAYS the way Sabbat are made?
> It just seems kind of.... silly and random to me.  *




Well, to the Sabbat, its obviously not, or they wouldn't do it.  We ARE playing a sabbat game, so things are done the Sabbat way.  If you want another camarilla game, I'm sure you could start one, but the Sabbat are a very war minded group.  The mass embrace is for a reason, the weak wont survive to make it out of the grave, they'll be torn apart by the strong.  It ensures that only the strong will make it out, a good thing for the weak to die quickly like that, otherwise the rest of their unlives would be a never ending hell of torment, the weak are marginalized and beaten up constantly in the quest for dominance in the pack.  



> Could someone explain how it works?
> Are Sabbat as particular in who they Embrace, considering that there's probably a lot of attrition in who survives the ordeal, what point would there be in going to huge lengths to make sure the candidate is the 'perfect' fit?




The Sabbat are most definitely not as discriminating in who they choose, but even then, they can still influence who makes it out.  Give the one you want to survive more blood then the others give to theirs.  Also lower gen vamps are a lot more likely to survive, they can heal faster, they can get strong quicker, and more importantly they are probably the recepients of the extra blood from their sires.  That said, as far as I know there a lot of randomness as to who gets picked.  The Tzimise have their revenant families that they embrace from, but they wouldn't be very interested in weak offspring either so mass embrace there too.  Its possible to get done one on one, but not in this game obviously since Tokiwong said we have been mass embraced.  Since that is what was said, I'd just as well have no one be given special treatment, as we all know what we are signing up for.




> Sounds novel... once.
> More than that, and it sounds rather ham-handed to me.




Opinion noted, but hey, thats what the Sabbat is like, the weak don't survive, the strong dominate.  It doesn't have the social rules of the Camarilla to keep the week protected.  The Sabbat for the whole period of its existance has been at war against the Camarilla, Mass embraces are standard tactics to create shock troops to assault Camarilla cities.  Embrace a hundred people maybe 50 survive, send them all in to assault the Cammies and there is no net loss when they all die, and when they kill maybe 3 or 5 Camarilla higher ups its a big gain, the mass embracees are replaced easily, the experienced elders they kill are not.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 2, 2003)

A little history:

The Sabbat was created because the elders of the Dark Ages treated their progeny like crap and used them as stake sponges against their enemies.

The younger vampires soon grew tired of this. The younger Brujah rebelled against their elders. The Tzimisce got wind of this and created the Viniculum to destroy existing blood bonds. The Lasombra hopped on board during this time as well as many many younger vampires of all the different clans who where tired of being oppressed. The rebels, or anarchs as they where called, began to purge their clan of it's elders.

Lasombra himself was killed. Tzimisce was thought to have died as well, but he had basicly became a god by that point and simply killed and took the form of the vampire (Lugoj) that was thought to have killed him. With the exception of only about 5 people in the whole world, everyone thinks Tzimisce is dead.

So anyway, the elders of the other clans called the Convention of Thorns. At the convention, the elders called a truce to what had then been dubbed "The Anarch Revolt". 

They tell the young rebels that all is forgiven and that they should cease conflict. (Note that during this time, the Assamites have been on an unholy killing spree and have killed many many elders for their blood.)

Unfortunatly, some vampires had done things so horrible that they knew the elders would never forgive them. As killers of their founders, the Lasombra and Tzimisce rejected the truce as a whole. Many other vampires of other clans decided that they would face similar repercussions and so they sided with the Lasombra and Tzimisce and became the Antitribu.

By this time, the Assamites had become extremely addicted to vampiric blood and had no intention of calling off their hunt. The Tremere took care of this and cast a curse upon the entirety of the Assamites who attended the convention. The curse caused them to become violantly allergec to vampiric blood. Because of the curse, they decided to submit to the elders.

However, some of the Assamites decided to join the Sabbat and did not attend the Convention. Free of the curse, they joined the Sabbat and played a big part in the creation of the Black Hand. The Hand is sort of a special forces team within the Sabbat.

It was at this time that the Tremere cast another curse. They put a mark upon the head over every member of their clan that sided with the Sabbat.

Since that time, a lot has changed. Most notably in the time period ranging from about 1998-2001. During this time, one of the remaining vampires of Clan Salubri joined the Sabbat and created over a hundred Salubri Antitribu.

The Ravnos founder arrose and was killed. this time was called the Week of Nightmares as the vampires of clan Ravnos attacked each other in insane frenzy. The clan was almost wiped out.

The Harbingers of Skulls arose seemingly from nowhere. When asked where they came from, their response was that they had crossed the Veil into the world of the living from the world of the dead. They joined the Sabbat.

Clan Gangrel left the Camarilla and went anarch after their Justicar encountered what he beleived to be an Antediluvian. Many joined the Sabbat.

The Tremere Antitribu were all destoyed in a rituel enacted by Soulot, the founder of the Salubri.

The Malkavians of the Camarilla regained use of the discipline Dementation. Up until recently, none knew the power and only the Malkavians of the Sabbat used it. None know why.


Whew... I'm sure I forgot a lot. I'm a bit rusty.


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## Shalimar (May 2, 2003)

I think you left out the fact that the Sabbat and Camarilla are at war with one another over the possession of cities in America, and elsewhere, although I believe the fighting in Euroupe is much lower key.  In the same set of novels that played out what Ash was talking about the Sabbat were on a roll on the East Coast, I believe that they took Washington DC, Atlanta, and a few other major cities, no mention on the minor ones.


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## reapersaurus (May 3, 2003)

Thanks for all the info.
And Ash, that last post of yours, summing up the history, was incredibly helpful!

Just to list what I've been working on, I'm planning on now playing a Crusader-type, Brom Van Doran, who personality-wise is similar to a Ventrue antitribu, and who is Embraced by a (City) Gangrel antitribu. The Gangrel Sire is interested in ridding the world of the Antideluvian that the Gangrel Justicar saw, and sees Brom as a tool of convenience he can use to tear down the Camarilla, and get access to money.
Brom is from great wealth and priviledge, who learned how great wealth can corrupt and ensnare the good deeds that men may aspire to. He views greed, and the acquisition of material goods as a prime motivator for doing Evil in the world. He sacrificed all his fineries to hang out with the homeless and disenfranchised, once he finally made his decision to leave the lap of luxury (his family estate). He dedicated his time and efforts to good causes, doing local charity work, and helping where he could. He eventually fell on hard times, and even hung out in Gangrel territory, where his uniqueness and drive to tear down the corrupt establishment stood out.

He would view the Camarilla as hypocrites, and degenerates who have no honor, with their lying, deceptive ways.
He who will do the things that other, more deluded individuals, are unwilling to, to affect actual change.
He is a Good man, who will not hesitate to use Evil means to justify the greater good.
If it was D&D, he'd be a Lawful Neutral paladin.


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## Shalimar (May 3, 2003)

Reap, just a quick question, are you still playing in Shadowrun?  The game has been going for almost 2 weeks now, and not a post.


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## reapersaurus (May 3, 2003)

yes, i'd like to, I just haven't had time to finalize my monk, inue.
I just yesterday sent a email to Folkert, asking for some final modifications, due to the excessive cost of the monofilament whip, I want to remove it and just use a normal whip.
The last thing I had time to ask about was to you, about your character's use of the un-cyberwared monofilament whip.

It's just too expensive, in money and magic cost, to have the whip cybered, solely for roleplaying value.


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## Shalimar (May 3, 2003)

I quite agree, thats part of the reason its probably not offered as a cyber option.  



> The last thing I had time to ask about was to you, about your character's use of the un-cyberwared monofilament whip.




I don't know, wasn't that a couple weeks ago?  It seems like this game is going to be just as fast as the other game.  If you are finding problems with not enough time to post should you really be adding more to the load?


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## reapersaurus (May 4, 2003)

Shalimar's got me feeling combatative and confrontational (or maybe that's just because my work's setup is blowing up and costing me 2 hours tonight), so I have to ask Tokiwong what I usually ask DM's online that I'm not familiar with:

What are your qualifications to DM online? Experience, in other words, and what are your approaches to speed of posting (how often will you post, etc), whether mapping will be done for combat or not, how do you want to deal with questions from players that come up? Should we email issues, or deal with them out front in the OOc thread?

As for this particular campaign:
Why did you choose Barcelona, Spain?
I think you mentioned because you lived/researched there, but are you aware of how much of a strain that puts on us as players?
And is this:







> Tentative info... Barcelona, Spain, the year is 1978, and the characters should be natives of the region, and they are young Sabbat, just brought into the Sabbat, via a mass-embrace, the city is under the hammer-fist of a Lasombra Arch-Bishop...



 still in force?
We must be natives of Barcelona?
What the heck do I know about Barcelona life, to make a realistic, 3 dimensional character, as it seems you prefer?

And why 1978?

I was 8 then, so I remember vaguely the feel of the times, but I can't realistically be expected to act appropriately for Spain, circa 1978. How bout others?

Do you mind if I ask how old you are?
Cause 1978 was TOTALLY different than it is today - I'd go so far as to say an alien world to those younger than 28 or so.
There was no real remote control for a TV, for god's sake. 
You bought music on an album, or _maybe_ a cassette, more likely an 8-track.
Video games didn't exist.
Jimmy Carter was president. This was before Ronald Reagan, before stock markets booming and the Yuppie movement, before MTV, before the saturation of world-wide media outlets.
America was one step out of the 60's and we mostly listened to Walter Kronkite to find out what was going on in the world.

The rest of the world might as well be in a before-1950's mode, when it comes to societal traditions and mores, probably even worse.
There was discrimination rampant, not even a real attempt to level playing fields, women hardly had careers, minorities likewise...  it was just a WHOLE 'nother ballgame.

And you want us, and yourself, to attempt to transport ourselves to this other world...  WHY?

Because you don't like some of the later canon of the World of Darkness, I'd be totally guessing?
Would it be a better idea to just ignore the aspects of 'official' WoD world-events that you don't like?

Just tell us what world you want us to play in - I think from the character-talk we've been doing so far, we've provewn how much of a good group of players you're generously offering to DM for.

And one last thing:

I request that you let us have Merits and Flaws, regardless of whther they 'irk' you.
The players have fun with them.
Isn't that the point of the game?

whew - glad to get that off my chest. *lifts boulder off*


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## KitanaVorr (May 4, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Shalimar's got me feeling combatative and confrontational (or maybe that's just because my work's setup is blowing up and costing me 2 hours tonight), so I have to ask Tokiwong what I usually ask DM's online that I'm not familiar with:
> 
> What are your qualifications to DM online? Experience, in other words, and what are your approaches to speed of posting (how often will you post, etc), whether mapping will be done for combat or not, how do you want to deal with questions from players that come up? Should we email issues, or deal with them out front in the OOc thread?
> 
> ...




Reaper - 

Personally, I really like that its set in Barcelona and I do like the requirements that we be natives of the area.  I'm rather tired of the games on the boards always being very American-centric and caucasion-centric.  But even so, native requirements don't seem to affect the others as so far three of our PC group  are not from the region at all.  I believe only Catulle and I have Spanish concept characters.

Also bear in mind that 1978 in Europe is very different from 1978 in the United States.  Also if you're not Spanish, well you would be the minority group in Spain, not the other way around.  Alot of the things you pointed out really is just from the American point of view.  The rest of the world was not as backward as the United States was in terms of discrimination in the 1970's so saying that the rest of the world was stuck in the 1950's is incorrect.

All it requires to develop characters is to put a little bit of effort into researching the time period, the culture, and the region.  This can be done very easily just by using a search engine.  I'm from the school of roleplaying where I love researching the characters I play so that I play them as true to form as possible. (ie: if I play a biologist I would read up on biology to sound knowledgable).

Really it boils down to this.  Tokiwong is the storyteller and that's the story he wants to tell.  I also believe that the other players don't have any problems with his restrictions or they wouldn't be playing.

This post isn't intended to 'ding' you or anything, but just to perhaps add a different perspective on the outlook of the game.  What you see as restrictions, I rather see as benefits.


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## Shalimar (May 4, 2003)

Tokiwong,

I am so sorry for Reapersaurus's post, it was in-excuseable, please don't hold it against the rest of us.  I am exceedingly grateful for the chance to play, especially as you had to be talked into running it.  Please don't change your mind about running it because of 1 players utter lack of diplomacy, the rest of us are truly grateful for the opportunity, no matter where it is that we are playing.


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## Tokiwong (May 4, 2003)

I shall think about it, I am not sure if the words are insulting or not, and I really don't feel that I am being unreasonable, but we shall see, I want it to be fun, not an Inquisition...

Just gonna let things simmer, for a bit, as it stands if someone else wants to runa  game more everyone elses speed, they are welcom to it


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## KitanaVorr (May 4, 2003)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *I shall think about it, I am not sure if the words are insulting or not, and I really don't feel that I am being unreasonable, but we shall see, I want it to be fun, not an Inquisition...
> 
> Just gonna let things simmer, for a bit, as it stands if someone else wants to runa  game more everyone elses speed, they are welcom to it  *




You're not unreasonable at all.  Please don't change the game dynamics just because one person doesn't like it.  There are seven other players besides him that enjoy the game as you have created it.  If he doesn't like it, he can always choose not to play.

I want to say right now that Reaper *does not* represent the opinions of anyone else in the game.


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## reapersaurus (May 4, 2003)

insulting?!

you've gotta be kidding me.
I can't ask simple, reasonable questions about the game, without being afraid the DM is going to pack up and stop playing?

What you call diplomacy, Shalimar, I call ignoring a alarming symptom.

The player questions in my post were all quite reasonable ones to ask.
Currently, I don't know what Tokiwong's answers are, and I don't know how he's being 'unreasonable'.
If he replied with "tough, that's my game, and I would rather have it set in Barcelona", then *he'd be more than welcome to respond that way.*

Toki - don't think of changing anything about your game because one player talks about it.
That's the point of talking about it - to allow for a exchange of ideas and approaches about the subject, and we all learn more.

What are your feelings or concerns about my questions?
If you'd like, I'd be happy to discuss them with you here, or on email.


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## Tory Adore (May 5, 2003)

*Name:* N’care Apophis (pronounced Na Care)
*Race:* Egyptian / American	
*Age:* Almost 22  *Height:* 5’6”  *Weight:* 123 lbs 
*Hair:* Black with natural reddish highlights  *Skin:* Light olive-complexion  *Eyes:* Brown
*Generation:* 9th Serpents of the Light
*Nature:* Penitant
*Demeanour:* Bon Vivant
*Concept:* Student / Nightlifer (internal conflict with sin and repentance)
*Sire:* Brigette de l'Artibonite

*Physical*
Strength: 2
Dexterity: 2
Stamina: 2

*Social*
Charisma: 4
Manipulation: 3
Appearance: 3

*Mental*
Perception: 3
Intelligence: 3
Wits: 2

*Talents*
Alertness: 2
Athletics: 1
Empathy: 2
Expression: 1
Subterfuge: 3

*Skills*
Crafts: 1 (sketching)
Etiquette: 1
Stealth: 1
Survival: 1
Fire Dance: 2 

*Knowledges*
Academics: 2
Finance: 1
Investigation: 2
Linguistics: 3 (French, Heiroglyphics, Latin, Spanish)
Medicine: 1
Occult: 3
Politics: 1

*Backgrounds*
Generation: 4 (9th)
Resources: 1 (small savings / small studio flat – uses pulic transportation, walks, or hitchhikes)

*Disciplines*
(just ideas so far – still working on it)
Presence: 1
Serpentis: 2
Thaumaturgy: 1 (The Vine of Dionysus - Methyskein)


*Virtues*
Conscience: 2
Self Control: 1
Courage: 5

*Humanity:* 4 
*Willpower:* 5
*Blood Pool:* 14

*Clan Weakness*
Highly allergic to the sun – twice as much damaged inflicted from sunlight

*8 Freebies:* bought 2 in skills (Craft), 5 Backgrounds, 1 in Humanity

*Long Character Backstory*
N’care Apophis was born in Egypt. Her mother, Monique Allen, was a young, American anthropology student on her first dig completing an apprenticeship. As the result of her mother’s indiscretion and promiscuity while in Egypt, N’care was conceived. Her birth, by Cesarean section ordered by Dr. Mahan, came during the total solar eclipse that took place on June 8, 1956. Being unsure of who the father was, Monique chose the last name of her child based on Egyptian legend which seemed to fit her feelings at the time of the birth of her daughter – N’care’s birth signalled an early end to Monique’s career. When people asked her mother where N’care’s father was, Monique would tell them that he had died just before N’care was born.

Monique struggled to find jobs in Egypt to support them as she could. When N’care was about 12, her mother received a letter asking her to come to Haiti to do some research with a former colleague that she had kept in touch with over the years. The money was too much to pass up on its own, not to mention Monique would get another chance at her career. With that, she packed up  and moved N’care and herself to a better, more comfortable life in Haiti. During their travel, N’care asked how her father died, and why her mother had gone to Egypt. Monique wished she could lie to her daughter, but of the bad traits she had, lying to her daughter just wasn’t one of them. N’care learned everything, and her mother told her about the legends of Egypt’s ancient gods, where her last name had come from, and how to read and sketch hieroglyphics. She didn’t quite know what to think of her mother. Maybe because she was too young to fully understand everything, but it took care of her questions about her father.

The years went on, and in addition to learning English, French, and Creole in her Haitian school, N’care came to possess a profound love of art, specifically religious art. Religions fascinated her too, perhaps because she had none of her own. N’care, with her curious nature, learned about religion and Voudoun through books and her friends, most of which practiced Voudoun or were devout Catholics – though some she could have sworn practiced both at the same time. 

To her mother’s dismay, N’care at 15, became socially much like she had been, with alcohol and mild drug use starting to “help” her daughter feel like she “fit” in. Monique could see N’care was having trouble feeling like she fit in even though N’care had a special something about her that made her well liked by those around her. Her mother had a difficult time controlling her daughter. N’care was not really meaning to be disrespectful; she just didn’t listen very well when she really wanted to go somewhere or do something. She often found clever means to get her way, like sneaking out and telling little white lies about where she was going and whom she would be with. N’care spent a lot of her free time in the clubs like her mother had when she was younger. She felt normal there, like she belonged. Everywhere else she just felt out of place no matter how much she was liked. N’care was almost 17 when she became pregnant from her own indiscretions. However, her child was not meant to be, as a miscarriage changed her path. After the miscarriage, Monique, attempting to save her daughter from the same fate she had experienced, contacted a friend who got N’care involved in the Catholic Church. Her mother, though not agreeing with the Faith herself, agreed to let her daughter be baptized; anything to help curb N’care’s desires and indiscretions. N’care thought she had conquered her sins with her attention to the Faith, but soon the club and party scene (alcohol and drugs) started to draw her attention again. Secretly she would sneak out a night or two a week for clubbing and then hit confession on Sunday. She just couldn’t help herself regardless of how much she tried and prayed to have her sins released from her desires. She felt cursed with the look of the “good girl” and the tendencies of the “bad girl”. N’care often wondered if she would ever feel like she truly fit in anywhere.

The next couple of years passed, and N’care discovered Spain in one of her classes. Graduation was near, and it was time to give thought to what she wanted to do. It was not a tough decision for her. N’care wanted to leave Haiti for Spain and study art with a minor in religion, and learn Spanish and Latin. She had heard there was a fair share of good nightlife there too, but she kept that to herself when talking to anyone about her plans. A Catholic scholarship and small savings her mother had paved the way to make the trip possible. The next 4 years were pretty uneventful for her, or so she thought. She went to school part-time and got a part-time job working in a museum / art gallery in the Gothic Quarter at night to make some money. N’care’s manager really liked her, and occasionally would comp her tickets to local exhibits and concerts. N’care told her mother the job was to help pay for books that the scholarship didn’t pay for, but in reality it was to fund her club scene and addictions that had gotten a hold of her yet again. In N’care’s mind, confession was still there on Sunday, though she knew that wasn’t how it was supposed to work. It did make her feel better though. 

Brigette de l'Artibonite, leader of a cult belonging to the Serpents of the Light, had been stalking N’care for several nights. She heard N’care pray nightly, asking to truly feel like she had a purpose, searching to “fit” somewhere. The lady Cobra was very skilled at Obfuscation, and was able to hide herself well until the fateful night she decided to reveal herself. N’care changed at the end of her shift into her club clothes consisting of a white short skirt with white patten-leather go go boots and a black tube top, braided her hair into two long braids behind each ear. It was about 10:30pm when she left work and headed off to her favorite club for a drink and whatever else happened her way as she had been doing nightly since she had gotten her job. It was nice to have a little money in her pocket to burn as she pleased. She slammed a couple of drinks, and then hit the dance floor to work on her new hustle steps that she had learned from some guy last week. She was dancing with a man when a beautiful woman, announcing herself as Brigette, approached and asked to step in. N’care, caught off guard by the comment, stopped dancing for what seemed the briefest of seconds, but then found herself quite taken with the woman. As the song came to an end and a new one started, Brigette finished introducing herself, showed N’care the corner of a little bag and motioned for her to follow her out back. N’care felt her Catholic lessons pull at her a bit, but “there was always Sunday” she thought. Brigette was very persuasive and in her presence N’care felt a strange sense of belonging; like they were supposed to be together somehow. It was the first time N’care felt like she had a true connection with someone, but how was that possible when this was their first meeting? The thoughts rushed through N’care’s mind like the rapids of a rushing river, then they were gone just as quickly. N’care wasn’t going to miss this feeling she had wanted and prayed for so long, and she was unable to refuse Brigette anyway.

N’care’s eyes were locked on the woman so much so she didn’t notice the group of men coming up the alley toward them. Brigette turned slightly which placed N’care’s back to the approaching group, and she started to take out what N’care had thought was the little white baggy she had seen while on the dance floor. N’care looked up into the beautiful woman’s eyes just in time to see Brigette look past her and nod her head to one side, eyebrows raised. Suddenly N’care felt her two, long braids grabbed harshly. Her eyes terribly wide open in fear, N’care yelled for Brigette to run as the pulling of her braids took her backwards off balance into the arms of a man who gagged her mouth as another scooped her arms up over her head and tied them together at her wrists. At the same time, a different man that looked like he had the skin of a snake, lifted her feet from the pavement and tied them at the ankles as well as her knees, while still another lifted her rear end leaving her suspended in mid air. N’care started to mumble through her gag the Rosary and every prayer she had ever learned from every faith she had ever read about as the men lifted her into the darkness of the back of a van in the alley. They clamped the ropes on her wrists and ankles to metal bars in the middle of the floor. As the whirl of commotion settled in almost pitch darkness in the van, N’care tried to look around to see if she could see Brigette. All she saw was darkness, and the outline of human forms at her feet when a city light happened to sneak through a window and bounce around the interior of the van. N’care then heard a newly familiar voice cut through her prayers coming from just above her head and to the right. “I’ve come to grant your ‘prayers’ tonight N’care. I alone deem you worthy, but you alone will still have to prove your worth.”

The voice was Brigette’s, and her words ushered in a life of darkness blacker than the murkiest corner of the van.


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## reapersaurus (May 5, 2003)

I find this post by Kitana in the stickied Etiquette Thread incredibly ironic:







> ETTIQUETTE POINT (4/29/03)
> 
> We're all equal on the boards. No one is better than another so don't be afraid to speak up (respectfully) to your DM when something bothers you. Keep in mind that you might not always get what you want, but never be afraid to let whatever bothers you be known. Its always unhealthy to let it simmer and who knows? Maybe it will work out, after all misunderstandings can't be resolved with silence.


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## KitanaVorr (May 5, 2003)

The operative word there is *respectfully*.  I'm not denying that it is absolutely reasonable to state your opinions or disagreements, but it is imperative that it be done respectfully.  In a medium such as this where only words are available without the benefits of non-verbal communication, extra care must be taken with diction.

Your post with its choice of language came off as aggressive, high-handed, and incredibly American elitist.  Whether or not you meant to, you deserve the benefit of the doubt, but please be aware that, for example, stating that the 



> The rest of the world might as well be in a before-1950's mode, when it comes to societal traditions and mores, probably even worse.




doesn't come off particularly well, especially since the generalization is incorrect.

Hope that helps with the understanding as to why a few people were offended.


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## reapersaurus (May 5, 2003)

you are free to feel I phrased my questions too harshly.

Partially, there was an intent to that, that I would love to speak with Tokiwong more about.

However, the questions (I believe) are incredibly valid, and to concentrate on the style and not the substance of the questions and ignore them, smacks of dangerous ignoring of an issue.

I'll wait to elaborate on the issue for Toki's response.

And if you'd like to continue to discuss some of the issues I brought up about this game, I'd like to reply to your comment that the rest of the world in 1978 was better (read more equal, more inclusive, etc) than America.

I'm no historian.
But I'm pretty darn sure that the rest of the world for the most part is worse at civil rights, discrimination, and equal rights.
As far as I'm aware, the majority of countries are quite out front in their distaste for other cultures, and treat anyone non-native as a second class citizen at best.
Don't let Revisionist History that's all the rage these days convince you that the rest of the world is better than America.

edit: an aside - is it worse to post something that can be *interpreted* as American elitist (in this arena), or to post something that *states* that America is inferior (in this arena)?


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## KitanaVorr (May 5, 2003)

I agree that in every country there is discrimination in varying forms and intensity.  However I do disagree that the United States is any less discriminatory in its policies than any other European country.  The United States is infamous for its own revisionist history policies, especially regarding parts of history it doesn't want to remember (native american massacres, japanese internment, segregation).

To focus on Spain since it's the locale for this game, near the end of the 1970's is when many of the discriminatory legistations were abolished thanks to Franco's death in 1975 and the beginning of the consitutional monarchy in 1978.  1977 saw 22 women ascend to the Spanish parliament.  The United States had 3 senators, 23 representatives and our democracy has been around much longer.

1978 saw the abolishment of the anti-gypsy legistation and allowed them to be come full citizens.  Although they still suffer problems similiar to what the Hispanic and Affrican-American populations did in the United States at the time.  They do not have the same access to education or to the job market and they are very much dependent on social services despite civil rights legistation.

As for women's prescence in the time period, the British had Margaret Thatcher(1979-1990) and even very male dominated cultures such as India (Indira Gandhi - 1966-1977) have had female leaders.  We have yet to have a female president or vice-president.

I don't believe that the United States is inferior, but neither do I think that the United States is superior either.  We have many faults and a very spotty history, just as spotty and bloodied as any other country.

EDIT: For any moderators, this is just background information for the game (Barcelona-1978), not a political discussion extravganaza!  Please don't close the thread.


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## reapersaurus (May 5, 2003)

hmm..   let me try to follow this.

A general statement of mine, to point out how different playing in Spain would be from what most of us are familiar with (Americans), is restated by you as being American elitist.
You confirm that the 'rest of the world' is not worse than America re: civil rights, etc.

Then I state my belief that the majority of the world IS worse (in this regard).
Then you bring up specific Spain-centric historical research, and refer to 2 other examples (England & India).

How is Spain + 2 specific examples a refutal of my general statement about America as it compares to the majority of the world?

I'm sure that if I wished (and had time/interest), I could bring up 200 examples of countries in the world 1978 that were worse than America in this arena. I'm not exagerrating.

In retrospect, I'd like to clarify something that may be mistaken perception:
I am not an "American elitist", whatever that may mean technically.
That was Kitana's term, in reference to a general comparison of historical world human rights issues circa 1978.

And I doubt that the board distaste for political discussion directly applies to In-Character discussion of world politics in a period adventure game, and I think we should wait for something to actually flare up, and/or a moderator posts something, to proactively censor/shut down interesting discussion.

edit: personally, I am so anti-political, that there's really no way I can persaonlly get very worked up over political discussion.

Now, discussion about how modern-day perception and beliefs that America tries to hide its past violations, etc, and how America is 'just as bad' as other countries, I will sink into like a triple-cheeseburger and curly fries.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 5, 2003)

I have to say, I'm a little torn myself.  

One one hand, I really want to get into a good Sabbat game. I have for some time. I think this game has a lot of potential.

On the other hand....

I know absolutely jack about the setting. I know little to nothing about Spain today, much less Spain as it was a year before I was born. I realized I was in trouble when I couldn't come up with what kind of car my character would have. 

Looking at my character's background, I said his personality was "blood, soul, and rock and roll". But, now that I think about it, did they even have rock and roll in '78 Spain? I could look all this up I suppose, but I really don't have time to break out the text books.

Also, I'm a big fan of merits and flaws myself (especially with only half the freebie points we are supposed to get), but that really is up to Toki. Heck, if I remember right, it was presented as optional material to begin with. *shrug* I just thought I would throw my vote in in case Toki was even considering it. Nothing wrong with not using them though. I can get by. This really isn't a big deal.

Simply put, I am having a hard time deciding if I want to spend a lot of time studying up on a time period, culture, city, and country that I have little to no interest in so I can play in a game I've been drooling over for the last year. Not to mention the fact that I'm already in too many games. Decisions.... decisions....

Again, nothing wrong with what you are trying to do Toki, I just can't decide if it's for me. By all means, run the game you want to run.


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## Jemal (May 5, 2003)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> *Tokiwong,
> I am so sorry for Reapersaurus's post, it was in-excuseable, please don't hold it against the rest of us.  I am exceedingly grateful for the chance to play, especially as you had to be talked into running it.  Please don't change your mind about running it because of 1 players utter lack of diplomacy, the rest of us are truly grateful for the opportunity, no matter where it is that we are playing. *




First off, this is the only message I can see that shows a lack of respect.

All of Reapers questions were EXACTLY that... questions.  they way they were asked may sound to you (And/or others) as if they are undiplomatic, but well that's too bad.  
You do NOT have the right to apologize for the fact that Reaper has concerns+Questions.  If Toki feels they are disrespectful, he will say that.  If reaper THEN feels like apoligizing, he can do it himself.  You apologizing for him before toki has even had a chance to say anything about it is a patronizing, "i know better than him" attitude.  IMO You should be apologizing TO reaper, not for him.  but of course I'm not going to tell you to do that, b/c it's Reaper you've been demeaning, not me.  If he wants an apology from you he'll ask for one, just like if Toki wants an apology from Reaper, HE will ask for one.
Think about what you'ld feel like If I told Reaper "I apologize for Shalimars utter lack of respect and her patronizign attitude".
Doesn't feel good, does it?  To have someone else tell you that your opinion is wrong.

Now I like to think that we're all fairly friendly around here(Even friends have arguments.. sometimes HEATED arguments), and I'm sure we can work this out.  The easiest way I can see is to not ignore questions b/c you don't think the person asking them deserves an answer.

i'ld also like to say that I also know less than nothing about 1978 Barcellona, most certainly not enough to make a character for it that would seem 'real'.  All I can do would be to come up with (As I'm attempting) a concept that would fit in fairly well anywhere at any time.
HEll, the only time I've ever heard of Barcellona before was when Eminem was on tour there.

I do not, by any means, disagree with everything Toki's doing.  In fact, i don't 'disagree' with him on anything, I am simply stating that i know nothing about the setting and it is thus a bit of a struggle to come up with a character.  I am, however, trying.  I would also like to say that I agree with him on the Merits+Flaws thing, I never quite liked them.  I feel it's a complex enough game without them, they're more for flavour than anything else IMO.


On 1 final note: 
Kit + Reap, pls stop talking politics before a mod shuts the thread down.  (And yes, discussions on whether or not America's civil rights are better than other countries is a VERY political topic with LOTS of feelings about it.)  If not for the fact that I've been chastised repeatedly for making political coments on these boards I'ld be right in there with you guys, but If I say any more political things I'm likely to be banned from the boards.

I know kit posted that little 'disclaimer' but I'ld rather not take any chances unless a mod actually posts that what you two are doing is ok.
If you guys wanna keep talking about this, lets go to a board we can get into it deep, I'ld LOVE the chance to discuss this very issue.


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## Jemal (May 5, 2003)

One more thing..



			
				KitanaVorr said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You're not unreasonable at all.  Please don't change the game dynamics just because one person doesn't like it.  There are seven other players besides him that enjoy the game as you have created it.  If he doesn't like it, he can always choose not to play.
> *




You somehow know that everyone else likes it exactly as is?  Obviously they don't, 3 of us have expressed that we would like to discuss possible changes.



> *I want to say right now that Reaper does not represent the opinions of anyone else in the game. *




ANYONE?
Please don't accuse one person of speaking for everyone when he doesn't know what they think, and then go and do the same thing yourself.

You do not know whos opinions are represented in a message, except whether or not they respresent your OWN.

This message is aimed at everyone.
PLEASE SPEAK FOR YOUR SELF


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## Valara (May 5, 2003)

[No message]


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## Shalimar (May 5, 2003)

Ok, heres a thought, all those willing to play in the Game Tokiwong offered to run, please raise your hands.  Those who don't have your hands raised, find another Storyteller.  He made an offer to do one thing, and you have basically all said you don't want to play in such a game and are now expecting him to change that, because of what you want.

Jemal, I wasn't apologizing FOR Reapersaurus, I was apologizing because of him.  I am sorry if understanding the distinction is beyond you.  His statements linked all of us together as a gaming group, and while that is not incorrect, the way in which those statements were made was an embaressment to me as a member of the group he is claiming to represent.  I apologized out of embaressment that the rudeness could have appeared to have come from me in any matter if even only through the tenous link that Kitana, Ash, Catulle, Reap, and Tory share.



> You somehow know that everyone else likes it exactly as is? Obviously they don't, 3 of us have expressed that we would like to discuss possible changes.




And you somehow have the right to dictate to the story-teller?  If I was Tokiwong I would withdraw the offer post-haste due to the rudeness shown to him, and the pettyness that has been shown on all sides.  He would truly need to be a saint to want to put up with this group after the embarressing showing we have made of ourselves.

As much as I wish to play in the game that Tokiwong actually offered to run for us, I refuse to play in it with a certain party.  The person I am speaking of isn't even really a player in our other Vampire game, he posts very rarely maybe once every 2 or 3 weeks or so and in the interim where he leaves other players hanging Barry is forced to treat the character as an NPC(playing the character much better I might add).

I really do want to ask everyone one question though, and it goes back to my main point.  DMs post their ideas in this forum all the time, they ask for people who are intereseted to post and join in.  You wouldn't jump into a GMs recruiting thread and tell him to change his game and change the game rules would you?  NO, you would just think about whether or not you were fine with the limitation, if not you would just give the game a pass and not play.  Its always been your option to take a pass on the game if its one you didn't like.  Nothing gives anyone the right to just tell the storyteller to change his game, they don't have to play it.

Tokiwong, I am truly sorry for any offense that this group may have presented you, and for any that I personally caused.  Please don't think poorly of all of us who play in the Camarilla vampire game.  I know I let my indignaion overwhelm my good manners in reaction to what has been said, and for that I am truly sorry.


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## Jemal (May 6, 2003)

> Jemal, I wasn't apologizing FOR Reapersaurus, I was apologizing because of him.  I am sorry if understanding the distinction is beyond you.



That was deliberately insulting, Shalimar, and I'm not going to take it.  Mincing words and insulting someone who's trying his damndest to see both sides of the issue is extremely petty.  I'ld demand an apology, except you're too free with those, so they have no value anymore.



> And you somehow have the right to dictate to the story-teller?



The only thing I said that could even REMOTELY be construed as telling Toki what to do was when I said "This it to everyone: Speak For Yourself".  I fail to see the problem with that, so what was I dictating to him?



> I refuse to play in it with a certain party. The person I am speaking of isn't even really a player in our other Vampire game, he posts very rarely maybe once every 2 or 3 weeks or so and in the interim where he leaves other players hanging Barry is forced to treat the character as an NPC(playing the character much better I might add).




If you're going to veil your insults towards 'a cartain party' so thinly, you might as well say it out loud instand of in such a cowardly, petty way.  Until you said that I actually had a small amount of respect left for you and was considering this just another argument between fellow gamers.  You lost it all with that comment.  If you don't have the guts to say it straight, then you aren't deserving of any respect, at least not from me.  



> You wouldn't jump into a GMs recruiting thread and tell him to change his game and change the game rules would you?



No, but I would (And do) ask him/her if there is anything that can be discussed and possibly changed to make the game more suited to myself, as I have noticed many other players do.



> Nothing gives anyone the right to just tell the storyteller to change his game



I don't recall anybody except you TELLING Toki anything. Reap, Ash, and I have ASKED him questions, and you have told him that we shouldn't have, and that everyone who matters agrees with you 100%.  It's quiet obvious you don't believe anyone who disagrees with your narrow view deserves to speak, and when they do you apologize to the st b/c they have an opinion, and then 'politely' tell them to take it you way or the highway.



> Tokiwong, I am truly sorry for any offense that this group may have presented you, and for any that I personally caused.



Well, I guess I don't have to apologize to you, TOKI, Apparently I'm not worthy of speaking for myself.



> If I was Tokiwong I would withdraw the offer post-haste due to the rudeness shown to him, and the pettyness that has been shown on all sides.



The only one who's being petty and Rude is you, and I challenge anyone to come up with a valid quote from me that is both Petty AND NOT taken out-of-context.



> Those who don't have your hands raised, find another Storyteller.



YES SIR!  SORRY SIR!  I didn't know you had been appointed to speak for Toki, but i guess I was wrong.  I'll leave, then, and all I have to say is: 
To Shali: Good bye and good riddance.  
To Toki: Good luck, you'll need it.
To the Mods: I apologize FOR MYSELF for participating in such a heated argument, and I respectfully ask you to ignore any apologies someone else claims to make on my behalf.  I am VERY capable of speaking for myself regardless of what 'certain people' think.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 7, 2003)

Sadly, I am done. I apologize Tokiwong, it has nothing at all to do with your choice of setting, anything else directly related to the game, or anything to do with you at all really.

If you decide to run the game, good luck and best wishes.

It isn't anything personal toward anyone in particular, but as I said in the past, when it stops being fun, I don't see any point in doing it.


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## reapersaurus (May 8, 2003)

well, it's disappointing to see people get personal, and heighten problems instead of minimizing them, but if Tokiwong hasn't posted by now, I'd have to assume that he's answered my questions by his ignoring them.

To DM a bunch of intelligent, direct players, any DM that is looking to have fun with a Sabbat game would have to have better communication and true desire to DM than Tokiwong apparently did.
It's a good thing that this happened before too many people dedicated too much time to their characters, or more importantly, to a setting that seems to have questionable merit to some players.

Also, what happened in the Sabbat game should not have affected the Camarilla game, in my opinion, but I adopted a 'live and let live' policy early on - we are all different people, and have vastly different gaming and personality styles.

With Catulle leading that game (a strong DM, dedicated to see an online game thru), the only way for the Camarilla game to not continue to be a stellar example of what can be done with roleplaying online is if the players get needlessly bent out of shape over stuff that is bound to come up in the course of a Chronicle.

I have seen many online games flounder due to the incomplete dedication of the DM on these boards in my time here.
Trust me - if Tokiwong was on the fence about playing, it's best to stop it early, which was the reason for my direct (not IMO 'harsh') questioning of hihs background experience, since I didnt know him and the only way to assess his level of competence and dedication was to...  *gasp* ask him.

And if Tokiwong was in it for the long haul, a player asking a few questions, and requesting to include things, shouldn't havemade him blink twice.

If we're seriously trying to play a Sabbat game, a f-*ing SABBAT game, and it falls apart because I asked the DM some questions about his setting, and Kitana viewed the general comments as being 'American elitist" (edit: clarification - I thought her discussion was a great example of exchanging viewpoints, even tho I didn't personally agree with her viewpoints), do you all think there was much chance of success with the game?  

Seriously.

We're adults, right?
Communication is our medium of choice here, in an online forum, right?
Why would communicating concerns (that were shared by other players) be something that would de-rail a solid game?

I suggest we still keep our eyes open for a Storyteller that has the cahones to DM a group of adults online, and deal with the adult subject matter that a Sabbat game would inevitably entail.
That is a not-easy couple of characteristics to find in a DM, but if we're lucky enough to find one (thank god Catulle flew in out of nowhere in the Cammy game), I'd be up for still trying a Sabbat game, although I'd mainly be playing for the combat, and playing with Tory.

After thinking about the character sketch I thought up, I realize he's actually a better man than Nikolai is, currently, and would probably be killed eventually by the degenerates, but that'd be fun to play...

well, those are my 3 cents on the subject of what happened, and i don't think i should have to, but I will clarify that I am not personally affected by what happened, and what I say or ask is not intended with any emotional subtext, or personal insinuations, or whatnot.
Never jump to conclusions about what I post, and if you have any concerns or questions about the way my words are/were intended, than you can ask about them, similar to how Kitana did here (unfortunately, these boards are ridiculous about anything remotely political - kind of ironic to be concerned about even as impersonal and broad-brush political discussion as me and Kitana just touched upon, yet we were thinking of playing murderers, monsters, and worse?  That is actually one of the more ironic and laughable situations I've seen on the boards...)

I'll edit anything out of this post if anyone has a problem with it - these're really just impersonal observations/impressions...


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## Catulle (May 10, 2003)

Well, I thought I'd push this to the top of the queue one way or another...

If Tokiwong is still happy to run a Sabbat game under the circumstances, then I'm all for it (in fact, I'd vastly prefer that option). If not, I'm almost happy to spread my interests as far as running a Sabbat-themed game, with the precise details to come.

Thoughts, anybody?

Regards,

Barry


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## Tory Adore (May 11, 2003)

I would like to try out a Sabbat game. Any ST is fine with me as long as they show the patience and courtesy Catulle has shown all of us in the Camarilla game. I'm not new to gaming, but I'm still fairly new to online gaming and know very little about Sabbat. I learned a lot creating N'care though, which I would still like to play if that will work with whomever wants to take the game.

(...and Catulle, I would play in ANY game, Vampire related or not - if you would have me of course - that you ran on the boards - you are an extraordinary ST / DM)

Tory


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## KitanaVorr (May 12, 2003)

of course I'm still interested in a Sabbat game, but I'd like a chance to play in a vampire game with you as a player, Barry.  

I really would love to have Tokiwong as our ST if he is still willing to rassle in this feisty bunch.


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## reapersaurus (May 13, 2003)

Catulle said:
			
		

> *Thoughts, anybody?*



Well I agree with Kitana, that I'd love to play in a game with you as a player.
But a game can't be played without having a dedicated DM, so unless Tokiwong or anyone steps up to the table, I don't see any other candidates to *run* a Sabbat game on the boards, though I'd love to see other DM's takes on V:tM.

However, I'm counting things up and all I see is Kit, Tory, me and you.
I don't know if Shalimar is up for continuing, or if anyone else was around, and wanted to jump into the deep end of dramatic vampiric monster-play.

How many players do you guys think is enough for a Sabbat game?


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## reapersaurus (May 13, 2003)

After reading back the thread, I'm still surprised that it's not OK to ask questions of a DM.
I asked pointed questions that were not phrased as some would like.... Shalimar went way out of her way to inflame player questions into a big brouhaha..... Jemal responded aggressively.

Big whoop - I phrased questions wrong - she had a bad week - he had had enough- it happens to all of us.
The only thing that seperates adults from kids is the ability to interact with people of different styles and approaches than us, and the dedication to not 'pack up our ball and go home' if it's about something that we want to do.

So do we still want to play Vampire, or not?
I can't believe that smart people like us would let little stuff get in the way of having fun.

If Tokiwong is still reading, or considering to DM Sabbat, I humbly ask:
"Why did you choose Barcelona, Spain?
And why 1978?"

Is it OK to ask questions?
*I'm not telling you what to do*, I'm asking why/how these restrictions that I see as limitations can better the game, or enhance the game for all concerned.

If Barry is considering DM'ing, my questions would be:
What character generation method would we use?
I don't know Sabbat character generation, but I would love to try the method I posted earlier, that actually allows us to have Skills more than 3 without bankrupting our point allotment.

Explanation of *request*:
My approach is that it is more fun to be able to play a character that is very good (preferrably _uniquely_ good) at *something*.
It is very difficult, and costly, to be very good at something when your max ranks in skills is 3.

I have no other CharGen requests/preferences other than that.


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