# Asmodeus vs Demogorgon



## |]emonix (May 1, 2002)

Everyone know that the Arch-Devil (who should be a diety and was once considered to be one by older editions) would smack the crap out of Demogorgon any day of the week

But sinse the world doesnt always agree with me, i thought i would post this topic to see just who everyone would think would win. for those of you who dont know that much about either of the super powers, i can provide some insite.

Asmodeus is the ruler of the 9th level of hell, the undesputed ruler of everyone in hell, and also the former god of magic. He has never (on record) lost a battle, and even managed to put down a massive rebelion in which all the rulers of the other levels of hell plotted against him..... ok nuf said, Asmodeus is king

Demogorgon... well i dont know that much about him honestly, do anybody that does, i would really like some insite into him just to make this pole a little more ballanced

State your oppions, if u think some other nerd could reck both of them, big woop, nobody cares...


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## Rhialto (May 1, 2002)

BOTH would get their behinds handed to them by my creation, Thanatos, Dark Reaper of Souls, and Lord of the Charnel House.

Thus the innate problem of trying to gauge the opinions of D&D players on topics such as this is shown...


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## Bob5th (May 1, 2002)

I vote for Bruno.

The current DM's retired char from 1E. Killed Demogorgon on his home plane by breaking a staff of the magi. Put Asmodeus in a Spirit Wrack. It was a long running high level campaign with a good bit of magic items that you had to work your ass off for.


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## Nightfall (May 1, 2002)

Orcus still could do a major beat down IMHO.


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## Mouseferatu (May 1, 2002)

Well, we can't judge by second edition, since not all of them were fully statted out...

But according to 1st edition, Demogorgon is tougher than Orcus and Asmodeus, and Asmodeus is tougher than Orcus.



(Don't believe me?  Check the experience values--which, in 1st edition, were pretty good indicators of "toughness"--in the 1st edition DMG.)


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## Lady Dragon (May 1, 2002)

Asmodeous is the king of hell and Demongorgan is just a demon prince Obviously the king of hell would win I don't care what the 1st edition books say we will have to wait to see the Book of vile darkness to get our answer,But I'm betting for Asmodeous.


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## Skarp Hedin (May 1, 2002)

See, it's gotta be Demogorgon: he's got tentacles.  We all know that the tentacular beings out there can distribute some advanced clobbering: just take a look at Cthulhu, or Shub-Niggurath or mind flayers.

Tentacles rule the lower planes!

That and he has baboon heads.  Baboons are way nastier than goats or debonair sophisticates.


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## hong (May 1, 2002)

The Star Destroyer would win, with Elminster coming a distant second.


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## S'mon (May 1, 2002)

I voted Asmodeus since his wand does ant type of dragon breath 1/round, demons take full damage from acid, half from fire - so black or red dragon breath good - beating Demogorgon's attack modes.  Going by the 1st ed MM.  Demo has 1 more hp but I don't think that'd count for much.


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## Vaercathor Deathknel (May 1, 2002)

*Let's compare*

As 1e gives us the only real means of comparison, let's use that:

Demogorgon and Asmodeus are Lesser Gods (DDG p.90).

Armour Class:  Asmodeus has a -7 AC vs. Demogorgon's -8.

Hit Points:  Asmodeus has 199 hp vs. Demogorgon's 200.

Physical Attacks:  Asmodeus has one attack for 4-14 damage vs. 
Demogorgon's 3 attacks for 1-6 for each tentacle while his tail drains 1d4 levels.

Magic Resistance:  Asmodeus has 90% vs. Demogorgon's 95%.

Special Mentions:  
Asmodeus can fly, is as strong as a storm giant, and can use the following abilities; wall of fire, ice storm, wall of ice, detect invisible, invisibility, dispel magic, hold monster, shape change, beguile, rulership, geas, symbols of pain, insanity, and hopelessness, unholy word, summon 2 greater devils (we'll assume pit fiends).  His gaze causes fear, weakness, or chill.  Also his rod has the effects of dragon's breath.

Demogorgon can hypnotize, beguile, insanity, detect invisible, dispel magic, polymorph self, wall of ice, telekinese, feeblemind, project image, power word stun, any symbol, gating in a random demon.

Too close, it would depend on if they were played to their fullest potential.


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## S'mon (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Let's compare*



			
				Vaercathor Deathknel said:
			
		

> *As 1e gives us the only real means of comparison, let's use that:
> 
> Demogorgon and Asmodeus are Lesser Gods (DDG p.90).
> 
> ...




After all that build-up that's a pretty weak conclusion. 

If you look at your list again you'll see that none of Demogorgon's attacks are very effective against Asmodeus while he has a decent hp total, while he can do 32 dmg/round acid damage to Demogorgon (assuming Demo saves), twice that if hasted.  Assuming no use of lesser god abilities Asmodeus would seem to have the advantage on 1e stats.  If they start summoning allies 1e pit fiends are a lot nastier than any 1e demons, although Type V/Mariliths get a decent number of attacks.


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## Matafuego (May 1, 2002)

After reading and re-reading both of their stats in 1e I consider that Asmodeus will win in a not so tough match... (Well I also thought that before reading the stas )


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## Voadam (May 1, 2002)

What effect will Demogorgons energy drain have on Asmodeus if he gets his tentacles on him? I don't think he had levels or hit dice in 1e just hit points.

Also given Asmodeus' rod, I think it tips pretty quickly in his direction for dishing out damage.

In 1e the caster level mattered for MR, for every level above 11th it went down 5% so you need to post what level they cast at to determine if their spells will be relevant.

I remember being really disapointed by the demon princes' physical damage in the MM. Even before UA and specialization first level human fighters did more than 1d6 damage.

In 1e DDG I forget what standard bonuses being lesser gods gives them. I remember in the 1e manual of planes that there was a whole list of spell like abilities.


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## Aaron L (May 1, 2002)

Hopefully Asmodeus.  Oneof the basics of the Devils, and why the Demons haven't wiped them out (not in any Blood War, just out of malice), is that there are many, many, many, many, many Demons, but the Devils are more individually powerful.


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## Desdichado (May 1, 2002)

_



Hopefully Asmodeus. Oneof the basics of the Devils, and why the Demons haven't wiped them out (not in any Blood War, just out of malice), is that there are many, many, many, many, many Demons, but the Devils are more individually powerful.

Click to expand...


_
Yeah, but 3rd edition doesn't really live up to that promise.  Balors (Type VI) are more powerful than Pit Fiends, for instance.


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## Ialdabode (May 1, 2002)

Bah.  Demogorgon has the combined power of monkeys and tentacles.  Any Japanese anime would easily put him over the horned lord of hell.


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## Mouseferatu (May 1, 2002)

Well, I really only meant to bring up the 1st edition stats as a joke--hence the little smiley icons.

However, I still feel constrained to point something out.

The fact that Asmodeus is "king of Hell" while Demogorgon is "merely" a demon prince doesn't mean anything when it comes to figuring out which is more powerful.

Why?

To be King of Hell, you only have to be more powerful/more clever than eight other would-be rulers.

To control the entirety of the Abyss, you have to be greater than an _infinite_ number of other potential lords of their own domain.

Plus there's the fact that an inherently chaotic evil plane _can't_, by definition, have a long-lasting king.

If Asmodeus were a demon instead of a devil, I guarantee you he wouldn't be "King of the Abyss."


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## Voadam (May 1, 2002)

Oh come on, you only need to conquer 666 infinite planes full of demons to be called king of the Abyss


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## The Serge (May 1, 2002)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *Orcus still could do a major beat down IMHO.  *




HAH!


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## The Serge (May 1, 2002)

Well, everyone's using 1ed stats for both entities.  I'll use 2ed stats.

YES, there are indeed stats for both of these beings in 2ed.  Demogorgon appeared as an avatar of a lesser god in _Monster Mythology_.  His stats are as follows:

*14th Level Priest*
*THAC0* 7
*HP* 112
*Dmg*  d4+1/d4+1 (claws!!!), d6+1 tail
*MR 20%* (lower than a Pit Fiend's....)
*Half damage from*:  _Fire, cold, gas.
*Immune to*:  energy drains, poison, electricity, and mind control_.
*Special Attacks:*  cause disease (rotting), energy drain 1-2 levels (tail).
*Spell-Like Abilities:* _charm person, charm monster, domination, ESP, feeblemind, improved invisibility, polymorph self, plane shift_ 
*Gaze Powers:*   Each once a day at 60', _beguile_  and _insanity_ , each as _symbol._ 

Not all that great...

Now, Asmodeus appeared in _A Guide to Hell_  by Chris Pramas during 2ed last gasps of air.  Here are his pertinent stats:


*Fighter 25, Wizard 20* 
*THACO* 1
*HP* 199
*Dmg*   2d8+13 (3 attacks)
*MR* 90%
*Immune to:  * all spells under 4th level, poison, paralysis, petrification, death magic, illusions and phantasms, and mind control.  Can only be hit by +4 weapons or higher.
*Special Attacks:* _Awe_  (to any within 120', _gate_  one greater or two lesser devils each round (like a Pit Fiend...).
*Spell-Like Abilities:  * _symbol of pain, symbol of persuasion, symbol of hopelessness,  unholy word._ 
*Rod of Asmodeus:  * a rod of absorption (up to 25 spell levels), cast _acidic blast, cone of cold, and lightning bolt_ at will once per day as a 25th level Wizard.


.... Asmodeus, in 2ed, would have beat the tar out of Demogorgon.  Heck, a Balor would have beat the tar out of Demogorgon because the 2ed developers were clearly scared out of their minds from creating a Demogorgon along the lines of the one  in 1ed:  A DEMON PRINCE.

I've always seen Demogorgon as the strongest Demon Prince with a deific rank equivalent to that of an Intermediate god.  Asmodeus I've always seen as an Overpower operating under special restrictions since he's trapped in Hell.  If the two were to fight (requiring special circumstances), with Asmodeus under those special restrictions, it would be a close fight with Demogorgon having an edge.  If Asmodeus were under no restrictions, it would be no contest.  Of course, this is under my own rules.  In 1ed, Asmodeus had an edge because he could _fly_ and he could cast a lot of ranged spells that could harm Demogorogn... assuming it breached the Demon Prince's MR.  

We'll have to wait and see what Monte Cook comes up with for 3ed to determine this battle royale anew....


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## Matafuego (May 2, 2002)

Or we could use the converted stats in the meantime


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## Information (May 2, 2002)

I am currently statting Barry Manilow, and I personally feel that he could win in melee against either.


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## reiella (May 2, 2002)

Hmm..  Fighter 25 and THAC0 of 1.

I remember why I felt epic play in 2e was weird now .


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## hong (May 2, 2002)

Information said:
			
		

> *I am currently statting Barry Manilow, and I personally feel that he could win in melee against either. *




I would bet on Minmei in a smackdown against Barry Manilow.


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## Aaron L (May 2, 2002)

Minmei sonic screech attack: 26D12.  Dress up fun doll not included.


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## Eryx (May 2, 2002)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *Orcus still could do a major beat down IMHO.  *




I think Nightfall and I have to agree on this one (Just in case Clark is watching). Orcus would walk in and spank both of them.


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## Nightfall (May 2, 2002)

Hey I'm doing this even IF Clark isn't watching.  I hold true to my Lord of Undeath. Basically cause I know he rules, no matter WHICH version of him get published!


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## James McMurray (May 2, 2002)

I had to vote Demogorgon, mainly because Power Word Stun is unstoppable if it can be done at will. If it doesn't stun them for more than 1 round, you do it again. If it does stun them for more than one round, you hit them with something else. Of course, if their caster levels make MR a factor, I'd have to change my vote.


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## Nish (May 2, 2002)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> *Hopefully Asmodeus.  Oneof the basics of the Devils, and why the Demons haven't wiped them out (not in any Blood War, just out of malice), is that there are many, many, many, many, many Demons, but the Devils are more individually powerful. *



Actually, I think the Demons and Devils are pretty even on a creature by creature basis, with a few specific comparisons going to the Demons. However, the real balance the Devils have to the Demons' numbers is strategy, organisation, and discipline. Three things the Tanar'ri will never understand. And then there's the Yugoloth, who may be the least numerous of the fiends, but get many of the benefits of the Baatezu's strategy and organisation combined with the flexability of the Tanar'ri. Making them the fiends who should be feared most. 

Now the Celestials... Those are the ones that makeup for smaller numbers with more powerful individuals. Can you say 'Solar'?


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## Vaercathor Deathknel (May 2, 2002)

Sorry about the buil-up and then lousy conclusion.  I was tired.

I think we'd all agree that the fight would last a number of rounds.  So then we would need to know the levels/hit dice any impartial DM would assign to the two.  I'd say the hit dice were equal, as 1 hit point doesn't justify an extra hit die.

Demogorgon's energy draining would quickly bring Asmodeus down to a level where Asmodeus would not get a save vs. Demogorgon's hypnosis ability.

I see demons as more powerful than devil individually, but demons fight each other and don't cooperate.  Charge! is their general idea of strategy.  I think devils, although individually weaker, ccoperate, plan, know tactics and strategy, and don't really fight one another outside of politicing and plotting.  That's why devils win as much as lose.

I'm still using 1e as a basis, because I am one of those who try to forget 2e, as well as the movies Sphere and Highlander 2.

BTW, I'm a fan of both.  I prefer neither.  In fact, in one campaign I ran, Asmodeus and Demogorgon had arranged a "partnership" of sorts.

As for demons, Demogorgon - Orcus - Juiblex were, and always will be, the best, with honourable mention to Lolth.


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## S'mon (May 2, 2002)

Graz'zt is the coolest demon - just see the Gord books.


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## Vaercathor Deathknel (May 2, 2002)

Gord Books?  Oh, yeah!  Demogorgon was the best!  Graz'zt was only saved by his possession of the Theorpart.


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## MPA2000 (Feb 20, 2012)

Vaercathor Deathknel said:


> As 1e gives us the only real means of comparison, let's use that:
> 
> Demogorgon and Asmodeus are Lesser Gods (DDG p.90).
> 
> ...




Was it ever stated in either the MM or DDG what level/HD either ruler were?  I thought that the MM stated that they were 10th level?


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## howandwhy99 (Feb 20, 2012)

Asmodeus = 70,965*
Demogorgon = 74,000*

*_material forms only, otherwise x10_

But really, with power levels this close any one battle is going to come down to the rolling of the dice. Demogorgon will still win the majority of the time though.


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## SkredlitheOgre (Feb 20, 2012)

Dagon.


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## MPA2000 (Feb 21, 2012)

howandwhy99 said:


> Asmodeus = 70,965*
> Demogorgon = 74,000*
> 
> *_material forms only, otherwise x10_
> ...




Okay that is what you figured in xp, but I was asking if anyone figured out what their HD/level were.  Aside from "lesser god" as stated in the DDG.

BTW they all have only material forms.  Avatars didn't come in to use until the 2nd edt of AD&D, and even then the Demon Lords and Arch Devils were removed from the game.


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## Mouseferatu (Feb 21, 2012)

Is this a thread necromancy record? It's gotta be at least close...


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## pemerton (Feb 21, 2012)

MPA2000 said:


> BTW they all have only material forms.  Avatars didn't come in to use until the 2nd edt of AD&D



The notion of "material forms" is in 1st ed AD&D - a Demon Prince/Archdevil killed other than on its home plane is only banished, not permanently destroyed - the phrase "material form" seems to have the meaning "form on the prime material plane" - an outerplanar creature's analogue to the bodies that astrally projecting characters make when they arrive on the outer planes.


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## Corathon (Feb 21, 2012)

MPA2000 said:


> Was it ever stated in either the MM or DDG what level/HD either ruler were?  I thought that the MM stated that they were 10th level?




If by "level" you mean hit dice, in 1E one divides HP by 4.5 to get hit dice. That makes both about 45 HD.

If by "level" you mean monster level, both are level X (the top).


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## El Mahdi (Feb 21, 2012)

Mouseferatu said:


> Is this a thread necromancy record? It's gotta be at least close...




It might be.  But it does involve demon lords, so at least it's appropriate...


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## NewJeffCT (Feb 21, 2012)

El Mahdi said:


> It might be.  But it does involve demon lords, so at least it's appropriate...




This is the longest dead thread I've seen revived - almost 10 years.  That is prior to 4E and 3.5E.

oh, and the winner would depend on who wins initiative.


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## Tequila Sunrise (Feb 21, 2012)

Pfft, Asmodem and Demilame are both posers. One imitates a real world evil who always gets the short end of the stick, and the other's name is gorgon with a lame suffix. Magic wands and tentacles can't compete with _real_ power...

The Lady of Pain would annihilate them both. With all of their armies. At the same time.


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## Mouseferatu (Feb 22, 2012)

El Mahdi said:


> It might be.  But it does involve demon lords, so at least it's appropriate...




I dunno, wouldn't that be "thread summoning" or "thread conjuring" instead of "threat necromancy"?


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## M.L. Martin (Feb 22, 2012)

Hmm....a badly translated Biblical demon (the Asmodeus of Tobit is almost nothing like his D&D counterpart) who has been thwarted by an angel . . . vs. a scribal blunder that underwent an apotheosis. 

  Give it to the Red Death.


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## Squire James (Feb 22, 2012)

I say both of them are pretty dumb if they ever actually engage in combat with the other.  That's what minions are for, and they both have plenty of minions...

Besides, we all know they're both destined to either becoming the DM's Mary Sue characters, or sacrifices at the altar of the Almighty Powergamers!  I've seen very little middle ground in this.


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## AhrmannDM (Oct 10, 2021)

Skarp Hedin said:


> See, it's gotta be Demogorgon: he's got tentacles.  We all know that the tentacular beings out there can distribute some advanced clobbering: just take a look at Cthulhu, or Shub-Niggurath or mind flayers.
> 
> Tentacles rule the lower planes!
> 
> That and he has baboon heads.  Baboons are way nastier than goats or debonair sophisticates.



shub niggurath probably would use more of arcane powers then magical powers and eldritch entities especially outer gods are an entire different thing the tenar'ri demons


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## Blue Orange (Oct 10, 2021)

Yeah, (going by 1e) demon princes and arch-devils are classed as _Lesser_ Powers. 1e Deities & Demigods has Cthulhu, Azathoth, Cthugha, Hastur, and Yog-Sothoth as greater gods, with Nyarlathotep and Shub-Niggurath as lesser gods and Ithaqua as a demigod. So in 1e, maybe a wash?

If you go by the Call of Cthulhu RPG Cthulhu and Hastur are just Great Old Ones, essentially demigods, whereas Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Shub-Niggurath, and Yog-Sothoth are actual Outer Gods. Call of Cthulhu d20, which is much more similar to 3rd ed, more or less concurs, having Azathoth as a greater god, Nyarlathotep, Shub-Niggurath, and Yog-Sothoth as an intermediate gods, and Cthulhu and Hastur (as well as Chaugnar Faugn, Cthugha, Dagon and Hydra, Eihort, Glaaki, Ithaqua, Mordiggian, Shudde M'ell, Tsathoggua, and Yig) as demigods. So...maybe advantage Shub-Niggurath?

The way they're usually described I'd actually expect Shub-Niggurath to lash out with tentacles and random spells against anything in sight before disappearing if bored or actually threatened. The Cthulhu Mythos gods generally consider humanity beneath their notice, but how they'd react to a genuinely superhuman threat like a demon prince or arch-devil is anyone's guess.


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## Blue Orange (Oct 10, 2021)

NewJeffCT said:


> This is the longest dead thread I've seen revived - almost 10 years.  That is prior to 4E and 3.5E.
> 
> oh, and the winner would depend on who wins initiative.




That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.


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