# (5e) IMMORTAL RULES



## dave2008 (Sep 21, 2015)

UPDATE 08/10/2018:  Complete redesign of this thread.  


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Unfortunately I started deleting content before I realized I shouldn't!  I saved what I could from the old thread in post #12. Please note that all of the posts after post #11 and before post #51 will relate to the old content and no longer make sense - sorry! I decided to update this thread instead of starting a new thread.


DESIGN INTENT:
I have created this thread to post content to extend play beyond level 20 for those few diehards who dig epic play and want to see it come to 5e.  These guidelines are a work in progress, but the general inspiration was the Immortal Handbook from BECMI.  That being said, true to 5e's design philosophy I will try to draw from all editions and with a new twist or two.  I would also love input from the community as well.  The more ideas the merrier!

The intent of these Epic Guidelines is to create a game play that is similar to standed D&D 5e, but with enough differences to mark it as something different, something EPIC.  To do this I will invoke the wisdom of another patron of Epic play, Upper Krust and his Ten Commandments of Epic games (written about 4e, but applies here as well):  Article: The Ten Commandments of Epic  Though, to be honest I can't bring myself to go quite to his level of extreme high level play.

The general concept for this 5e Epic Character guide is that the general rules of play, whether it is in combat, exploration,  or social interaction are the same, just wrote on a grander scale, with some exceptions.  You will mostly likely still need, at a minimum, the 5e PHB and DMG to play epic characters and create epic adventures.

These guidelines are likely to change quite a bit, so the following few posts (the Epic Guidelines) may be vastly revised for some time.  Please review and let me know what you think.

This is the PC companion to my 5e Epic Monster Updates thread:  5e EPIC MONSTER UPDATES


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## dave2008 (Sep 21, 2015)

*(5e) IMMORTAL PLAYER'S GUIDE: INTRODUCTION*

Credits


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More to come!



*Introduction*


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Table of Contents


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Introduction
Part 1 - Making an Immortal Character
Chapter 1: Apotheosis

Chapter 2: Immortal Form

Chapter 3: Authority

Chapter 4: Divine Realms

Chapter 5: Epic Equipment

Chapter 6: Immortal Customization
Part 2 - Playing Gods
Chapter 7: Epic Rank

Chapter 8: Immortal Adventures

Chapter 9: Epic Combat
Part 3 - The Rules for Immortal Magic
Chapter 10: Immortal Magic

Chapter 11: Epic Spells
Appendices


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## dave2008 (Sep 21, 2015)

*(5e) IMMORTAL PLAYER'S GUIDE:  PART 1 - Making an Immortal Character*

*Chapter 1: Apotheosis*


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Update this chapter with variant rules for HP and AC.









Chapter 2: Divine Authority


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More to come!



*Chapter 3: Immortal Form*


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This chapter is a little rough.  I think it will need go through some extensive clarity re-write.  I am manly trying to get some ideas out into the wild.








Chapter 4: Divine Realms


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More to come!



Chapter 5: Epic Equipment


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More to come!



Chapter 6: Immortal Customization


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More to come!


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## dave2008 (Sep 21, 2015)

* (5e) IMMORTAL PLAYER'S GUIDE: PART 2 - Playing Gods*

*Chapter 7:  Epic Rank *


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Updated Epic Might (12/2/18).






Chapter 8:  Immortal Adventures


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More to come!



Chapter 9:  Epic Combat


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More to come!


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## dave2008 (Sep 21, 2015)

*(5e) IMMORTAL PLAYER'S GUIDE: PART 3 - The Rules of Immortal Magic*

Chapter 10: Immortal Magic


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More to come!



Chapter 11: Epic Spells


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More to come!


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## dave2008 (Sep 21, 2015)

*(5e) IMMORTAL PLAYER'S **GUIDE**: APPENDICES*



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More to come!


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## dave2008 (Sep 21, 2015)

*(5e) IMMORTAL DM'S GUIDE: INTRODUCTION*



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More to come!


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## dave2008 (Sep 21, 2015)

*(5e) IMMORTAL DM'S GUIDE: PART 1*



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More to come!


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## dave2008 (Sep 21, 2015)

*(5e) IMMORTAL DM'S GUIDE: PART 2*



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More to come!


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## dave2008 (Sep 21, 2015)

*(5e) IMMORTAL DM'S GUIDE: PART 3*



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More to come!


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## dave2008 (Sep 22, 2015)

*(5e) IMMORTAL DM'S GUIDE: APPENDICES*



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More to come!


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## dave2008 (Sep 26, 2015)

OLD STUFF:

*Epic Boons:*


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*Boon of Ability*
*Cost:* see below
*Prerequisite:* 20th level & see below (boon of immortality)
Your character can increase one ability core by 2 or two ability scores by 1 each. The ability score can be increased above 20, up to a maximum of 24. If your character posses the Boon of Immortality you can increase your ability score up to a maximum of 40.
You can take this boon more than once and the cost in QP varies as follows:


Up to 24:1 QP per 2 pointsFrom 25-30:2 QP per 2 pointsFrom 31-35:3 QP per 2 pointsFrom 36-40:4 QP per 2 points

*Boon of Combat Prowess
Cost: *1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Dimension Travel
Cost: *1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Epic Might*
*Cost: *2 QP, varies see below
*Prerequisite:* 20th level, Boon of Immortality, 20 Constitution or Charisma, and see below
You gain the intrinsic divine might of the gods. You gain a +1 bonus to your ability checks, armor class, saving throws, spell attack bonus, and spell save DC. You also gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls and your weapon attacks are treated as +1 magical weapons for overcoming resistances. These bonuses cannot be dispelled, are not affected by anti-magic fields, and do not stack with bonuses provided by magical weapons and equipment you are wearing or using.
You can take this boon more than once, but you must take them in order (you can only take the +3 boon after you have taken the +1 and +2 boon), with the following cost and requirements:

3 QP / 23 Con or Cha: Increase the bonus to +2 (+4 damage) and your attacks are treated as +2 magical weapons.
4 QP / 27 Con or Cha: Increase the bonus to +3 (+6 damage) and your attacks are treated as +3 magical weapons.
5 QP / 31 Con or Cha: Increase the bonus to +4 (+8 damage) and your attacks are treated as +4 magical weapons.
6 QP / 35 Con or Cha: Increase the bonus to +5 (+10 damage) and your attacks are treated as +5 magical weapons.

*Boon of Expertise*
*Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
You can select a new feat. 
You can take this boon more than once; however, your total number of feats cannot exceed your Wisdom or Intelligence modifier, whichever is higher, plus your proficiency bonus.

*Boon of Fate*
*Cost: *1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons," except as follows:
You can take this boon more than once. Each additional time you take this boon add one d10 to the roll, to a maximum of 10 dice, and select the highest die to be the bonus or penalty to the creature's roll.

*Boon of Fortitude*
*Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level and see below
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons," except as follows:
You can take this boon more than once. Your highest maximum hit point value is determined by your constitution score as follows:

Constitution of 20 or less, maximum hit points cannot exceed: 400
Constitution of 21-25, maximum hit points cannot exceed: 600
Constitution of 26-30, boon of immortality, maximum hit points cannot exceed: 900
Constitution of 31-35, boon of immortality, maximum hit points cannot exceed: 1,300
Constitution of 36-40, boon of immortality, maximum hit points cannot exceed: 1,700

*Boon of High Magic*
*Cost:* Varies, see below
*Prerequisite:* 20th level, you must be able to cast spells, meet the CR requirement for epic spellcasting (refer to Epic Spellcasting), and see below
You gain an additional spell slot, assuming you already have one of that level, at the rate defined below:

1 QP: you gain 1 level 5 or 6 spell slot.
2 QP: you gain 1 level 7 or 8 spell slot.
3 QP: you gain 1 level 9 spell slot.
4 QP, boon of immortality: you gain 1 level 10 spell slot.
5 QP, boon of immortality: you gain 1 level 11 spell slot.
6 QP, boon of immortality: you gain 1 level 12 spell slot.

You can take this boon more than once, but only once for each spell slot level.

*Boon of Immortality
Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Innate Spellcasting*
*Cost:* Varies, see below
*Prerequisite:* Boon of Immorality, at least one portfolio, meet the CR requirement for epic spellcasting (refer to Epic Spellcasting), and see below
You are able to innately cast spells, requiring no material components, from your portfolio's spell list. The level of spell you can cast and its usage are based on the amount of QP you spend and your casting ability score as indicated on the following chart:



Cost:Prerequisite:Usage:Spell Level:1 QP24 in casting abilityAt- will1st - 2nd2 QP24 in casting ability3/day3rd - 4th3 QP24 in casting ability1/day5th - 6th4 QP28 in casting abilityAt- will3rd-4th5 QP28 in casting ability3/day5th-6th6 QP28 in casting ability1/day7th-8th7 QP32 in casting abilityAt- will5th-6th8 QP32 in casting ability3/day7th-8th9 QP32 in casting ability1/day9th-10th10 QP36 in casting ability3/day9th11 QP36 in casting ability1/day11th-12th
You can take this boon more than once. The limit on the number of spells you can take is determined by your casting ability score divided by the boon cost+5-your epic might (see boon of epic might) if you have taken that boon. For example:

If your spell casting score is 26 you can have up to 5 1st-2nd lvl spells you can cast at will [26/(1+5-1)]; and 4 3rd-4th lvl spells you can cast 3/day [26/(2+5-1)]; and 3 5th-6th lvl spells you cast 1/day [26/(3+5-1)].

*Boon of Invincibility*
*Cost: *1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Irresistible Offense*
*Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level, see below
Choose one damage type. Your attacks can bypass resistance to that damage type.
You can take this boon more than once. You can select a different damage type or the same damage type. If you select the same damage type and have the boon of immortality, your attacks treat immunity to that damage type as resistance instead. If you select the same damage type a third time, your attacks can bypass immunity to that damage type. If you take this boon multiple times for the same damage type the cost in QP increases as follows:

2nd time for the same damage type: 2 QP
3rd time for the same damage type: 4 QP

*Boon of Luck*
*Cost: *1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons," except as follows:
You can take this boon more than once. Each additional time you take this boon add one d10 to the roll, to a maximum on 10 dice, and select the highest die to add to your roll.

*Boon of Legendary Actions
Cost: *2 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level, boon of immortality, boon of epic might
You can take 1 legendary action or gain one legendary action type. You can choose a legendary action from your list of legendary actions, but only one legendary action be used at a time, after another creature's turn. If you have unspent legendary actions at the end of the round, you may spend and use your remaining legendary action(s).
You can take this boon more than once, gaining an additional legendary action type or an additional usage of legendary actions. The total number of legendary actions you can take during a round cannot exceed the value of your epic bonus granted by the boon of epic might. The following legendary actions can be taken by anyone, refer to your portfolio(s) for additional legendary action types:

Attack. You can take one attack action
Move. You can move half your speed
Spell. You can innately cast an at-will spell if you have the ability to innately cast spells.

*Boon of Legendary Resistance
Cost:* 2 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level, boon of immortality, boon of epic might
Once per day, when you fail a saving throw you can choose to succeed instead.
You can take this boon more than one, gaining an additional usage of the boon, up to a maximum of 5 times per day. However, the total number of times you can take this boon cannot exceed the value of your epic bonus granted by the boon of epic might.

*Boon of Magic Immunity*
*Cost:* 1 QP, see below
*Prerequisite:* 20th level, Boon of Magic Resistance, Boon of Immortality, 18 Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, and see below
Unless you wish to be affected, you are immune to 1st level and lower spells.
You can take this boon more than once. Each time time you take this boon the cost increases and their is an additional prerequisite as follows:

2 QP / 20 Con, Int, Wis, or Cha: immunity to 2nd level spells.
3 QP / 23 Con, Int, Wis, or Cha: immunity to 3rd level spells.
4 QP / 26 Con, Int, Wis, or Cha: immunity to 4th level spells.
5 QP / 29 Con, Int, Wis, or Cha: immunity to 5th level spells.
6 QP / 32 Con, Int, Wis, or Cha: immunity to 6th level spells.
7 QP / 35 Con, Int, Wis, or Cha: immunity to 7th level spells.
8 QP / 38 Con, Int, Wis, or Cha: immunity to 8th level spells.

*Boon of Magic Resistance
Cost:* 2 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Peerless Aim
Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Perfect Health*
*Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Planar Travel*
*Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level, Boon of Immortality
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons," except as follows:
You can take this boon more than once, if you have already taken the boon of immortality, to choose additional planes of existence.

*Boon of Proficiency*
*Cost:* 2 QP
*Prerequisite: *20th level, Boon of Immortality
Your proficiency bonus increases by 1, up to a maximum of +10.
You can take this boon more than once. 

*Boon of Quick Casting
Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Recovery*
*Cost: *1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Resilience*
*Cost:* Varies, see below
*Prerequisite: *20th level and as noted below
You gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage as follows

1 QP, Minimum Constitution of 20: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing that is non-magical.
1 QP, Minimum Constitution of 22: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing that is +1 magical or less
2 QP, Minimum Constitution of 26: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing that is +2 magical or less
3 QP, Minimum Constitution of 30: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing that is +3 magical or less
4 QP, Minimum Constitution of 34: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing that is +4 magical or less
5 QP, Minimum Constitution of 38: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing that is +5 magical or less

You can take this boon more than once, but you must take each step in succession (to gain resistance to +1 magical attacks you must first gain resistance to non-magical attacks, etc.), and have already taken the boon of immortality to gain resistance to +1 or greater magical attacks.

*Boon of Skill Proficiency
Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
You gain proficiency in two skills of your choice.
You can take this boon more than once. 

*Boon of Speed*
*Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Spell Mastery
Cost:* 1 Q
*Prerequisite:* 20th level, you must be able to cast spells
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Spell Recall*
*Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of the FIre Soul
Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of the Night Spirit
Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite: *20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of the Stormborn*
*Cost: *1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of of the Titan*
*Cost:* 2 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level, see below.
You increase your size by one category, up to a maximum of gargantuan; you gain 20 hit points; you add 10 feet to your speed; and your space and reach increase accordingly. You can use weapons and equipment of the corresponding size. Your clothing and equipment do not increase in size when you take this boon.
You can take this boon more than once. However, you cannot increase your hit point maximum beyond the thresholds described in Boon of Fortitude. In addition, for each size increase you must meet the following prerequisites:

Medium: 10 Strength
Large: 16 Strength
Huge: 22 Strength
Gargantuan: 25 Strength

*Boon of the Unfettered*
*Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Boon of Truesight*
*Cost: *1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."

*Bone of Undetectability*
*Cost:* 1 QP
*Prerequisite:* 20th level
As described in the DMG page 232 "Epic Boons."


*Epic Equipment:*
Reserved for future use

*Epic Weapons:*


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Epic weapons, like artifacts in general, are more than meets the eye. To start, most epic weapons are made of incredibly rare and dense materials and thus much heavier, harder, and stronger than typical weapons of the same size. As such, they both do more damage and are more unwieldy than typical weapons. This is described by the weapon's virtual size category. A virtual size category works just as if the weapon was the actual size of the virtual category, except, it an be wielded by creature of its physical size category, if they are strong enough. Thus a medium epic weapon may inflict the damage of a gargantuan sized weapon and require an equal amount of strength to us it. As a general rule of thumb, an epic weapon's bonus adds one virtual size category. So a +3 medium epic greatsword would do 8d6 damage and require a strength of 26, while a +3 large epic greatsword would do 10d6 damage and require a strength of 28. However, virtual size is independent of a weapons epic bonus, except that it must be at least +1 to have a virtual size category. Thus, an epic weapon can have a virtual size category higher or lower than indicated by its epic bonus. Refer to the table below for size, strength, and damages of epic weapons.


*Weapon Size (space):**Strength Required:**Damage:*Medium101[w]Large162[w]Huge213[w]Gargantuan254[w]Colossal (25x25)285[w]30x30306[w]35x35317[w]50x50329[w]75x753312[w]110x1103416[w]155x1553521[w]210x2103627[w]275x2753734[w]350x3503842[w]435x4353951[w]530x5304061[w]635x6354172[w]750x7504284[w]875x8754397[w]1,010x1,01044111[w]1,155x1,15545126[w]1,310x1,31046142[w]1,457x1,45747159[w]1,650x1,65048177[w]1,835x1,83549196[w]2,030x2,03050216[w]




*Epic Magic:*


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Reserved for future use.

*Acquiring Epic Spells:*
An epic character can gain the use of epic spells by meeting the prerequisites and spending the required QP to obtain the ability to cast 10th, 11th, or 12th level spells as indicated in the Boons of High Magic and the Boons of Innate Spellcasting. You can otherwise acquire spells in the same methods as mortal spells, or through Epic Spell Development, refer to the_ Epic Development_ section. However, even epic characters cannot simply gain the use of 13th level spells this way. Only by acquiring an elder spell can a character gain access to 13th level spell slots and spells. Refer to the _Elder Spells_ section for information on acquiring their use.

*Epic Spell Development:*
An epic character can spend time and resources to develop a spell. Once an epic spell is developed it becomes an indelible part of the caster and is always considered prepared. The easiest method is to develop a spell that is already known. This can be achieved by either; spending 1 day and 100,000 gp of rare materials per spell level on the ritual of Epic Spell Development; or, an epic character can simply spend 1 permanent QP per spell level.

Alternately, an epic character with the magic domain in its portfolio can commune with the weave and develop a spell that is currently a part of its fabric. Choose a spell from the list of below. You must have the ability to cast the spell level of the desired spell and then must succeed on a domain check (magic) with the DC equal to 10 + the spell level. If the check is successful you can spend 1 permanent QP per spell level to develop the epic spell.

The final option is to develop your own unique epic spells. This options is the most complex, time consuming, and resource intensive of the epic spell development methods. For information on developing an epic spell from scratch, refer to the Epic Spellcrafting section.

*Epic Spellcasting:*
Once an epic spell is learned or developed it can be, in general, cast just like mortal spells (levels 1-9), requiring similar components and casting times. Similarly, mortal spells can be advanced to 10th, 11th, and 12th level as noted in their spell descriptions, as long as the caster has the ability to cast these spells. Refer to the boons of _High Magic_ and_ Innate Spellcasting_ for information on how to obtain the ability to cast high level spells. Nonetheless, there are some differences between casting epic spells and mortal spells, whether advanced or not.

First, epic spells have prerequisites beyond simply having the ability to cast 10th, 11, or 12th level spells. At a minimum, epic spells require a certain amount of might to cast and this is reflected by meeting the CR requirement. In general, casting a 10th level epic spell requires a CR of 26, an 11th level epic spell requires a CR of 31, and a 12th level epic spell requires a CR of 36. It is possible to obtain higher level spell slots and cast mortal spells at higher levels, without having the ability to cast epic spells. Thus a caster with a 10th level spell slot could cast dispell magic or fireball at 10th level, but not meet the CR requirement to cast 10th level epic spells. An epic spell may have additional prerequisites, and if it does these will be listed on the _Prerequisites_ line of the spell description.

Second, epic spells also require the caster to spend quintessence (QP) to cast them. The amount QP require to cast an epic spell is listed on the _Cost_ line of the spell description and is no less than 1QP per spell level greater than 9th level, but it may be more. If the cost is followed by the _(permanent)_ label, then the caster must spend permanent QP, not temporary QP, to cast the spell. In addition, an epic character can choose to additional QP in any spell that it casts, even to mortal spells. The effects of adding quintessence to an epic spell are listed in the spell descriptions. At a minimum, the investment of a single QP in any spell will result in that spell automatically succeeding on any target of level / CR 20 or below. The target will fail any saving throws, to hit rolls are automatically successful, and all damage is maximized.

Thus, epics spell casting can be advanced on two fronts. There is the typical progression to higher level spells; 10th to 11th, 11th to 12th, etc., and the empowerment of spells by adding quintessence. This can result in a 10th level spell becoming more powerful than an 11th level, depending on the amount of QP invested in the spell.

_more to come!_

*Epic Spell Terms:*
Reserved for future use.

*Epic Spell Description:*

*10th level Spells *(by school):


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A*BJURATION*


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*DISPELL MAGIC*
The same as the 3rd level spell, except to dispel an epic spell or magical effect created with QP, the caster must also spend QP in an equal amount to dispell it. When this spell is cast, the caster is aware of the amount of QP it is required to spend. If an ability check is required, the QP are spent only if the check is a success.



C*ONJURATION*


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More to come!



D*IVINATION*


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More to come!



E*NCHANTMENT*


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More to come!



E*VOCATION*


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*Delayed Meteor Swarm*
_10th-level Evocation_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_1 mile
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *4 Rounds
*Prerequisite:* CR 26
*Cost:*1QP
Blazing orbs of fire plummet to the ground at two different points you can see within range. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose must make a Dexterity saving throw. The Sphere spreads around corners. A creature takes 10d6 fire damage and 10d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature in the area of more than one fiery burst is affected only once. At the start of your next turn you choose (no action) two new points, and repeat this process for the duration of the spell.

The spell damages Objects in the area and ignites flammable Objects that aren't being worn or carried.

_*At Higher Levels.*_ When you cast this spell at 11th level or higher, the duration increases by 1 round for each level above 10th. 

More to come!



I*LLUSION*





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More to come!



N*ECROMANCY*


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*ANIMATE LICH*
_10th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 10 minutes
_*Range: *_Touch
*Components:* V, S, M (a phylactery worth 120,000 gp)
*Duration: *Permanent
*Cost:* 1QP
*Prerequisite:* CR 22
You concentrate on a corpse while channeling necrotic energy into the body with your touch. At the end of the spell's duration the corpse rises as a lich (MM pg 222). The lich is not beholden to you and acts on its own free will.

*ANIMUS BURST*
_10th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_Self (300-foot radius)
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 26
*Cost:*1QP
A bitter cold of undeath emanates from you. Each creature in a 300-foot sphere centered on you must make a Constitution saving throw. A target takes 10d6 cold damage and 10d6 necrotic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. In addition, up to twenty creatures slain by this spell are reanimated the next round as skeletons (MM pg 272). The skeletons follow your commands and serve you until destroyed. The cold spreads around corners.
_*At Higher Levels.*_ When you cast this spell at 11th level or higher, the damage increases by 6d6 (each type) and the maximum number of skeletons increases by 20 for each level above 10th.​​*Contingent Resurrection*
_10th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 minute
_*Range: *_Touch
*Components:* V, S, M ( same as for _True Resurrection_)
*Duration: *12 hours
*Prerequisite:* CR 26
*Cost:*1QP
You touch one creature and bestow them with the power of resurrection. If the target is slain within the duration of the spell it is resurrected the next round as if the spell _True Resurrection_ was cast on it. You can only have one recipient of this spell at a time.

_*At Higher Levels.*_ When you cast this spell at 11th level or higher, the maximum number of recipients increases by 1 for each level above 10th. However, you must cast the spell separately for each target.​
*Demise Unseen*
_10th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_240 feet
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 26
*Cost:*1QP
You send invisible negative energy coursing through a creature you can see within range. If the target has 100 hit points or less, it is slain. If the target has more than 100 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failure, the target takes 4d10 + 100 necrotic damage and is slain if this damage reduces it to 0 hit points, or half as much damage on a success. A slain creature is instantly and imperceptibly possessed by a spirit under your control. The spirit controls the body of the slain target and it has a telepathic link with you. As long as you are on the same plane you can use a bonus action to give it a command and it will follow it to the best of its abilities, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on its own initiative.

The spirit can use all of the powers, memories, and abilities of its host. It cannot, however, learn new abilities or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities.

Creatures familiar with the the slain target will notice something wrong with the target. If the possessed creature acts in a manner inconsistent with its former character, the creature familiar with it may use an action action to perceive the possession by succeeding on a Wisdom (Perception) or Intelligence (Investigation or Arcana) check against your spell save DC.

*Finger of Death*
_10th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_120 feet
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 26
*Cost:*1QP
The same as the the 7th-level spell Finger of Death, except you can choose to either double the damage (14d8 + 60), or select two targets.

_*At Higher Levels.*_ When you cast this spell at 11th level or higher, you can increase the number of targets by 1 or increase the damage by 7d8 + 30 for each level above 10th.​​*Withering Curse*
_10th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_Touch
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *1 minute
*Prerequisite:* CR 26
*Cost:*1QP
Make a melee spell attack against a creature to taint your enemies with a vile curse. On a hit, the target takes 24d6 necrotic damage and must make a Constitution saving throw. The target is tainted on a failed save for the duration of the spell. A tainted target has disadvantage on attack rolls and takes 6d6 necrotic damage at the start of each of its turns. A target may repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, end the effect on itself with a success.

_*At Higher Levels.*_ When you cast this spell at 11th level or higher, increase the initial damage by 70 and the tainted damage by 4d6 for each level above 10th.​



T*RANSMUTATION*


Spoiler



More to come!






*11th level Spells *(by school):


Spoiler



A*BJURATION*


Spoiler



More to come!



C*ONJURATION*


Spoiler



More to come!



D*IVINATION*


Spoiler



More to come!



E*NCHANTMENT*


Spoiler



More to come!



E*VOCATION*


Spoiler



More to come!



I*LLUSION*


Spoiler



More to come!



N*ECROMANCY*


Spoiler



*Bloodpact*
_11th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_120 feet
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 31
*Cost:* 2QP
You feast on the lifeforce of a creature you can see within range. The target must make a Constitution saving throw, taking 30d10 necrotic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. You regain hit points equal to half the amount of damage sustained by the target. If, after the effects of the initial attack, you have less hit points than the target, the target must make an additional saving throw at the end of its next turn, On a failure, the target takes 20d10 necrotic damage and you regain hit points equal to half the damage sustained by the target. On a success, the target takes half as much damage. The target must continue making save throws on each of its turns, as noted above, until it has the same or fewer hit points than you, at which point the spell's effects end.

_*At Higher Levels.*_ When you cast this spell at 12th level or higher, increase the initial damage by 20d10 and the subsequent damage by 10d10 for each level above 11th.​​​*Declaration of**Death*
_11th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_Self (300-foot radius)
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 31
*Cost:*2QP
Your proclamation of doom sends out waves of necrotic energy. Every construct or creature, living or undead, within range of 100 hit points or less has its life force extinguished and is slain. If the creature has more than 100 hit points it must make a Constitution saving throw, taking 100 necrotic damage on a failure or half as much on a success.

_*At Higher Levels.*_ When you cast this spell at 12th level or higher, increase the spell range by 300 feet and the hit point range and damage by 50 for each level above 11th.​​​*Remote Death*
_11th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_Plane
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 31
*Cost:*2QP
You select one creature, that you know and that is on the same plane as you and overcome it with necrotic energy. If the creature has 200 hit points or less its life force extinguished and is slain. If the creature has more than 200 hit points it must make a Constitution saving throw, taking 10d8 + 200 necrotic damage on a failure, or half as much damage on a success.

_*At Higher Levels.*_ When you cast this spell at 12th level, increase the spell range to be the entire multiverse. When you cast this spell at 13th level, double the hit point range and the damage caused.​



T*RANSMUTATION*


Spoiler



More to come!







*12th level Spells *(by school):


Spoiler



A*BJURATION*


Spoiler



More to come!



C*ONJURATION*


Spoiler



More to come!



D*IVINATION*


Spoiler



More to come!



E*NCHANTMENT*


Spoiler



More to come!



E*VOCATION*


Spoiler



More to come!



I*LLUSION*


Spoiler



More to come!



N*ECROMANCY*


*Necrotic Tempest*
_12th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 minute
_*Range: *_Self (1-mile radius)
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *Concentration, up to 10 minutes.
*Prerequisite:* CR 36
*Cost:* 3QP
By the end of the casting time you have created a massive tempest of necrotic winds filling the spells range. All creatures that start their turn in the storm must make a Strength and Constitution saving throw. A failure of the Strength saving throw, the creatures speed is reduced by half. On a failure of the Constitution saving throw, the target takes 10d12 necrotic damage, or half as much damage on a success. Any creature reduced to 0 hit points while in the storm, rises the next round as an undead of your choice with a CR equal to or less than initial creature's CR, but not higher than CR 25.

The storm follows you when you move and undead created by the spell are charmed by you for the duration of the spell.

_*At Higher Levels.*_ When you cast this spell at 13th level, increase the damage to 20d12.​
*Soul Reaver*
_12th-level Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_Touch
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 36
*Cost:* varies, see text 
You touch a creature and sap its power, stealing its quintessence and adding it to your own. You make a melee spell attack against one target and spend the desired amount of QP. On a hit, the creature must make a Constitution or Charisma saving throw. If the target fails the save, it is drained of QP in an amount equal to the QP you spent plus 1d6 QP, and you gain QP equal to the amount lost by the target. On a success, the target loses 1d4 QP and you regain all but one QP spent.

If this spell is used against a mortal creature it is instantly slain and you regain 20d20 hit points.

_*At Higher Levels.*_ When you cast this spell at 13th level, increase the bonus QP to 2d6 and the spell range to 120 feet.



T*RANSMUTATION*


Spoiler



More to come!


[/spoiler]


*Elder Spells:*
As epic spells are to mortal spells, so Elder spells are to Epic Spells. Elder spells are considered 13th level spells, but are far more powerful than typical epic spells. Each elder spell is, in fact, unique. There is only one instance of each spell in existence, such that only one creature in all of the multiverse can posses each of the spells described below. An elder spell only becomes available if the possessor of the spell dies or willing gives it up. Each of the elder spells and is technically a 13th level spell requiring a minimum CR of 41 to cast fully; however, these spells simply must exist. Reality cannot function without them. Thus, it is possible for these spells to be acquired by lesser creatures. However, when this happens the spell cannot be used to its full potential.

The few who know of the existence of the elder spells have long debated their role in the fabric of the cosmos. Though no entity has be known to posses more than one of these spells at a time, it has often been theorized that possession of all of the elder spells would make the wielder omnipotent. The master of all time, thought, mater, and magic.

*Elder Spells / 13th level Spells *(by school):


Spoiler



*ABJURATION*


Spoiler



*Aegis*
_13th-level Elder Abjuration_
*Casting Time: *1 action
*Range:* Plane
*Components:* V, S
*Duration:* 1 day
*Prerequisite:* CR 40
*Cost:* 80 QP (permanent)
You proclaim yourself warden of your people with a song of power and protection, the song of the prismatic aura, the song of the Aegis! Creatures and objects of your choice that are on the same plane as you are shrouded in a shifting prismatic shimmer. Creatures under your protection gain a +10 bonus to their saving throws and AC, and resistance to all damage. Attacks that do not require an attack roll or saving throw that target creatures under the spells protection allow a saving throw with success nullifying the effect of the spell. These protections persist for the duration of the spell.

In addition, when a creature attacks or attempts to touch a protected target, unless the protected creature wishes to be targeted, the aura flickers with brilliant colored light and the attacker is subject to each color in order, from red to violet. The attack is interrupted and fails if the attacker is reduced to 0 hit points or it cannot bypass all seven colors. These effects are resolved prior to the attacker making its attack roll or the protected creature or object making any saving throws. The effects last for the duration of the spell.

1. Red. The creature must make a Dexterity saving throw, taking 20d10 fire damage and two levels of exhaustion on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. 

2. Orange. The creature must make a Strength saving throw, taking 20d10 acid damage and is incapacitated on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one 

3. Yellow. The creature must make an Intelligence saving throw, taking 20d10 lighting damage and is stunned on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one

4. Green. The creature must make a Charisma saving throw, taking 20d10 poison damage and is poisoned on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one

5. Blue. The creature must make a Constitution saving throw, taking 20d10 cold damage and two levels of exhaustion (cumulative) on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

6. Indigo. The creature must make a Wisdom saving throw, taking 20d10 psychic damage and is unconscious on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

7. Violet. Indigo. The creature must make a Constitution saving throw, taking 20d10 necrotic damage and is banished to a demiplane for the duration of the spell on a failure, or half as much damage on a successful one. 

Alternately, this spell can be cast on a single target. In this case, the range is the entire multiverse, all of existence, and the duration is 100 years. 



C*ONJURATION*


Spoiler



*First Word*
_13th-level Elder Conjuration_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_Plane
*Components:* V
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 40
*Cost:* 80 QP (permanent)
More to come!



*DIVINATION*


Spoiler



*Omniscience*
_13th-level Elder Divination_
*Casting Time:* 10 minutes
_*Range: *_Plane, see text
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *1 day
*Prerequisite:* CR 40
*Cost:* 80 QP (permanent)
You chant the mantra of knowing, bending your thought on the nature of existence, withdrawing the power of Omniscience. You know everything about all thought, energy, magic, and matter that existing in the plane you are in for the duration of the spell. No wards or protections of any type can block your access to this information. While you have this knowledge you cannot be surprised and have advantage on all rolls, saving throws, checks, attack rolls, etc. when interacting with anything on the plane. In addition, anything on the plane interacting with you has disadvantage on all rolls and this disadvantage cannot be nullified by any source of advantage. Creatures above CR 25 may attempt to prevent access to their thoughts, but not their location, by making an Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throw. If the target succeeds on at least one, but not all, saving throws it can block access to one thought or idea that it desires to remain hidden. If it succeeds on all its saving throws, it can keep one thought or idea hidden permanently, and its thoughts are shielded from you and it does not suffer disadvantage on its rolls against you for 1 minute per average margin of success on the saving throw roll. At the end of this duration it may make additional saving throws to continue to shield its mind.

Alternately, this spell can be cast on a single target. In this case, the range is the entire multiverse, all of existence, and the duration is 100 years. 



E*NCHANTMENT*


Spoiler



More to come!



E*VOCATION*


Spoiler



*Waken*
_13th-level Elder Evocation_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_Plane
*Components:* V
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 40
*Cost:* 80 QP (permanent)
More to come!



*ILLUSION*


Spoiler



*Phantasm*
_13th-level Elder Illusion_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_Plane, see text
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *1 day
*Prerequisite:* CR 40
*Cost:* 80 QP (permanent)
You reach out with your mind and brush aside the veil or reality, releasing the power of Phantasm. You create a phantasmic reality in the minds of all creatures in range. Tapping into their greatest fears and deepest desires to beguile and frighten as you see fit. All creatures on the plane of existence that you are on are afflicted by a phantasm of your choice from any of the ones described below. Creatures above CR 25 may attempt an Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throw. If the target succeeds on at least one, but not all, saving throws the duration is reduced by half. If it succeeds on all its saving throws the duration is reduced to 1 round.

*Phantasm of Terror. *???

*Phantasm of Bliss.* ???

Alternately, this spell can be cast on a single target. In this case, the range is the entire multiverse, all of existence, and the duration is 100 years. 



*NECROMANCY*


Spoiler



*Ouroboros*
_13th-level Elder Necromancy_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
_*Range: *_Plane
*Components:* V, S
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 40
*Cost:* 80 QP (permanent)
You utter words of power, the lyrics of life and death, you speak the Ouroboros. You can choose to resurrect any and all creatures that have ever died within range as if you had cast true resurrection (with in no time limit) on each one; or, you can choose to kill any and all creatures, including undead, constructs and the like, within range, or any combination of the two options. Creatures above CR 25 may make a saving throw for each attribute. If the target succeeds on at least one, but not all, saving throws it is reduced to 0 HP and rises the next round as a Shadow of the Void. If the target succeeds on all its saving throws it suffers necrotic damage equal to one-quarter of its maximum hit points and you regain an equal amount of hit points.



*TRANSMUTATION*


Spoiler



*Last Word*
_13th-level Elder Transmutation_
*Casting Time:* 1 action
*Range: *Plane
*Components:* V
*Duration: *Instantaneous
*Prerequisite:* CR 40
*Cost:* 80 QP (permanent)
You utter a word of power, a word of un-making, a word of destruction, the Last Word; targetting all objects and creatures within range. Objects and creatures of CR25 and below are destroyed, no saving throw. Creatures above CR25 must make a saving throw vs each attribute. If the target succeeds on at least one, but not all, saving throw it is reduced to 0 HP and its hit point maximum is reduced in half. If the target succeeds on all saving throws it suffers damage equal to half its maximum hit points and its hit point maximum is reduced by one quarter. If all life is destroyed within the range of the spell, plane collapses and is destroyed.





[/spoiler]


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## zingbobco000 (Oct 27, 2015)

According to the boon of ability it says:

Prerequisite: 20th level & Boon of Immortality (see below)
Your character can increase on ability core by 2 or two ability scores by 1 each. The ability score can be increased above 20, up to a maximum of 24. If your character already posses the Boon of Immortality you can increase you ability score up to a maximum of 40.

Doesn't the character have to already posses to boon of immortality in order to obtain the feat?


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## Rhuarc (Oct 28, 2015)

zingbobco000 said:


> Doesn't the character have to already posses to boon of immortality in order to obtain the feat?




I thought that as well for a brief moment, then realized it means that you only need this requirement if you want to increase an ability score above 24, as described in the text. Could be worded more clearly in the future, but its fine for the time being IMO.


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## dave2008 (Oct 28, 2015)

zingbobco000 said:


> According to the boon of ability it says:
> 
> Prerequisite: 20th level & Boon of Immortality (see below)
> Your character can increase on ability core by 2 or two ability scores by 1 each. The ability score can be increased above 20, up to a maximum of 24. If your character already posses the Boon of Immortality you can increase you ability score up to a maximum of 40.
> ...




Perhaps it is written poorly.  The intent is that the Boon of Immortality is only a prerequisite for increasing your ability score above 24.  Any suggestions on how to clarify that?


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## dave2008 (Oct 28, 2015)

Rhuarc said:


> I thought that as well for a brief moment, then realized it means that you only need this requirement if you want to increase an ability score above 24, as described in the text. Could be worded more clearly in the future, but its fine for the time being IMO.




You got it!  I'm focusing on my epic monster thread right now, but when I get to a good spot to take a hiatus on that front I will get back to work on this thread, add more content an clean up some the existing stuff.


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## dave2008 (Oct 30, 2015)

zingbobco000 said:


> According to the boon of ability it says:
> 
> Prerequisite: 20th level & Boon of Immortality (see below)
> Your character can increase on ability core by 2 or two ability scores by 1 each. The ability score can be increased above 20, up to a maximum of 24. If your character already posses the Boon of Immortality you can increase you ability score up to a maximum of 40.
> ...




I updated the boon.  Let me know if it makes more sense now.


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## zingbobco000 (Oct 30, 2015)

dave2008 said:


> I updated the boon.  Let me know if it makes more sense now.




Yeah that should work better, thanks!


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## dave2008 (Oct 30, 2015)

zingbobco000 said:


> Yeah that should work better, thanks!




Great!


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## Faenor (Jan 21, 2016)

What do you think of the Epic Level handbook over on dmguild?


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## dave2008 (Jan 21, 2016)

Faenor said:


> What do you think of the Epic Level handbook over on dmguild?




I didn't know it was there - I'll check it out.  From the write up it looks like it is just player side changes and on top of that is advancing all of the classes to lvl 30.  Personally, I don't want my epic characters to advance further in levels so I think that author and I have philosophical differences with what constitutes "epic."  I've chosen to expand the epic boon system presented in the DMG to allow players to make character that can challenge the greater gods.  That being said, there are probably some good ideas in there so I'll pick it up.  Thank you for letting me know!


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## dave2008 (Jan 21, 2016)

Faenor said:


> What do you think of the Epic Level handbook over on dmguild?




I just purchased and did a quick drive thru.  I like its simplicity, each class fits on one page, and seems fairly well done.  It would take a lot of time to determine if the classes are balanced and that doesn't really interest me (as noted before i prefer epic characters that don't have classes), so no comment on that.  Similar with the feats - though I find those, and the spell advancement the most interesting and useful for my project.  

Personally, my stance is a mortal can reach level 20 and that is about it.  You can go a little beyond with some epic boons, but to go beyond that you need to ascend to immortality.  Thus, I guess I am more interested in an "Immortals Handbook" vs. an "Epic Level Handbook."

One negative is that the resolution on the PDF is low and the artwork doesn't really fit the subject matter.  Otherwise fairly interesting, thank you for letting me know about it.


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## Faenor (Jan 21, 2016)

Ok, thank you. We've playtested some of the 30-40 level monsters you've done vs some characters with pretty much maxed out epic boons plus the best magic items from the dmg. Two paladins hasted with holy avengers. Cleric and sorcerer. Found that the paladins were running out of slots for smites and couldn't keep up with regen.maybe a class that doesn't run out of steam - rogue plus fighter. Maybe need 6 characters, but that's a lot to run and there are only two of us


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## dave2008 (Jan 21, 2016)

Faenor said:


> Ok, thank you. We've playtested some of the 30-40 level monsters you've done vs some characters with pretty much maxed out epic boons plus the best magic items from the dmg. Two paladins hasted with holy avengers. Cleric and sorcerer. Found that the paladins were running out of slots for smites and couldn't keep up with regen.maybe a class that doesn't run out of steam - rogue plus fighter. Maybe need 6 characters, but that's a lot to run and there are only two of us




Cool!  Glad to here someone is giving them a try.  How did to go?  Sounds like it was a battle of attrition.  How many rounds was the combat(s)?  Also was that maxed with the DMG epic boons?  Have you tried with the additional levels provided by the 'Epic Level Handbook"?  I would be interested to know how that worked, as I am tempted to make my work quasi compatible with it.  It seems pretty well done and would be an interesting alternative to my system.


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## Faenor (Jan 21, 2016)

It was great fun. We saw after just 3-5 rounds against your tiamat (not in lair and solo) that the maths were just not going to add up. Burning hard with 3 attacks per round and maxed smites, the damage was not going to keep up with regen. We used your epic boons, maxed, so mostly 20-30 ability scores, immunities and resistances. We'll be giving the Epic handbook options a try next.


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## dave2008 (Jan 21, 2016)

Faenor said:


> It was great fun. We saw after just 3-5 rounds against your tiamat (not in lair and solo) that the maths were just not going to add up. Burning hard with 3 attacks per round and maxed smites, the damage was not going to keep up with regen. We used your epic boons, maxed, so mostly 20-30 ability scores, immunities and resistances. We'll be giving the Epic handbook options a try next.




Awesome - good to hear.  At some point I will get to complete this project, but until after I jet most if not all of my epic monsters updated.  Let me know how it goes with epic levels.


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## dave2008 (Feb 29, 2016)

I added a concept I am thinking about for epic weapons to the "Epic Equipment" category.  Let me know what you think.


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## dave2008 (Dec 11, 2016)

I have started adding details to the Epic Spells section, post #9.  I have also added spell descriptions for several level 10, 11, & 12 Necromancy spells.  More to come!


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## dave2008 (Dec 12, 2016)

I have added the Elder Spells of Necromancy and Transmutation.  I also updated the information about epic spell development.


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## dave2008 (Dec 20, 2016)

I have added the Elder Spells of Abjuration and Divination to the Elder Spells list under epic magic (post #9).


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## ClickerHero2971 (Nov 16, 2017)

Definitely using this and your bestiary when the party I'm DMing for gets this late game. One thing I'm not sure about though. Are there any class restrictions on Epic and Elder Spells, or can anyone with enough QP to buy them get them? Also, do you need spell slots for these levels and if so, how do you get them?


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## dave2008 (Nov 17, 2017)

ClickerHero2971 said:


> Definitely using this and your bestiary when the party I'm DMing for gets this late game. One thing I'm not sure about though. Are there any class restrictions on Epic and Elder Spells, or can anyone with enough QP to buy them get them? Also, do you need spell slots for these levels and if so, how do you get them?




I'm still working out the details; however, there are epic boons for adding innate casting or spellcasting to a character.  No class restrictions.  If you spend the QP to gain the required epic boons you are good to go.


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## ClickerHero2971 (Nov 20, 2017)

dave2008 said:


> I'm still working out the details; however, there are epic boons for adding innate casting or spellcasting to a character.  No class restrictions.  If you spend the QP to gain the required epic boons you are good to go.




Ok, thanks for clearing that up. The party I'm DMing for aren't anywhere near this point yet, but I just wanted to understand it well before I got there.


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## dave2008 (Nov 20, 2017)

ClickerHero2971 said:


> Ok, thanks for clearing that up. The party I'm DMing for aren't anywhere near this point yet, but I just wanted to understand it well before I got there.




FYI, there are two epic character options on DMs Guild and I have found at least one on Reddit.  I can email you the Reddit one if you want.


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## CapnZapp (Nov 20, 2017)

dave2008 said:


> FYI, there are two epic character options on DMs Guild and I have found at least one on Reddit.  I can email you the Reddit one if you want.



Why not just link it?

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## dave2008 (Nov 20, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Why not just link it?
> 
> Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app




I didn't think I had the link, but I had it book marked!  So here it is, epic destinies for 5e:  https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedA..._destinies_part_4_of_4_playtest_release_more/


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## Travis Wood (Dec 5, 2017)

When do you think the next update for this will come out? I am quite interested to see where this will go.


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## dave2008 (Dec 5, 2017)

Travis Wood said:


> When do you think the next update for this will come out? I am quite interested to see where this will go.




I don't have a set date, but I'm definitely getting the itch to get back to this.  My plan was to finish of the 1st drafts of my 5e Epic Monster Updates and then get back to this thread.  My best guess would be to return fully to this project in 6-10 months, but I really hope I can make it back quicker than that.


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## synergy2 (Jan 17, 2018)

Just an idea, but perhaps consider adding another table to the Epic Weapons for dexterity based characters? As it stands right now, an epic fighter is useless if he isn't using strength since the strength weapons completely outclass any dexterity weapons by a long shot.

I'd imagine the table could use the exact same format and that the weapons would just be lighter and sharper rather than harder and heavier? Maybe less base damage but more critical strike chance or something? Also to balance out the AC bonus you get automatically from dexterity. You don't want dexterity outshining strength but you also don't want dexterity fighters to never be able to properly use an epic weapon. 

Just my 2 cents!


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## Foxydono (Feb 24, 2018)

Before I knew of this thread, I made my own epic boons. This was partly because I thought the boons from the DMG were kinda limited. I know you already made your own boon system, but perhaps you can draw some inspiration from the boons I made.

Boons:
1. Hit Me Baby: Gain an extra 40 hit points
2. Cause More is Better: Gain max hit points every level (reroll if already rolled)
3. High Magic: Gain an extra spell slot. You can have only one 9 th level extra slot, two 8 th level slots,
three 7 th level slots etc. Reroll if you don’t have access to spells.
4. Like a Fish in the Ocean: Gain Swimming Speed equal to your walking speed and you gain the
ability to breath underwater (reroll if you can already swim)
5. No Mountain High Enough: Increase or decrease your size by one size category by one, you
choose (larger: increase your range by 5 feet and gain +4 damage on your melee attacks, shorter:
increase your AC by +2)
6. Raging: Gain an extra attack when you use the attack action (reroll if caster)
7. Power Up: increase a stat of your choice by +2, or two stats by +1 (maximum of 30)
8. Feed Me: Choose a feat of your choice
9. Reflective Shield: Gain resistance to damage from spells
10. Toughened Up: Gain resistance to melee attacks
11. Flying High: Gain flying speed equal to your walking speed (reroll if you can already fly)
12. Road Runner: Gain +30 base speed. This counts to all modes of natural movement speed if you
have it (burrowing, flying, swimming and walking). In addition, you can make a dash action as a
free action once per short or long rest
13. Snake Eyes: Gain advantage to spells and magical effects
14. Fire Walk with Me: Gain Immunity to an elemental type of your choice
15. Tuned In: Gain an extra attunement slot
16. Cheat Death: you automatically stabilize when reaching 0 hit points
17. All Seeing Eye: Gain True Sight 120 feet
18. Who is the Mole: Gain Burrowing speed equal to your walking speed (reroll if you can already
burrow)
19. Resilience: gain resistance to non-magical damage if you roll this again gain immunity instead
20. Skill Monkey: You are proficient in all skills. If you roll this again you gain expertise in all skills.
21. Especially for you: You get an ability depending on your class. If you are multiclass you may
choose from which class you want the ability, but you cannot take the same class ability twice:
- Wizard: you may cast all the spells you know. You don’t have to prepare spells anymore.
- Fighter: You gain an increased critical damage range of two
- Rogue: Gain +5d6 sneak attack dice
- Barbarian: Gain an additional 4 Strength and 4 Constitution with a maximum of 30
- Ranger: You gain 4 extra spells known. In addition, you become a full spell caster for the
purpose of determining your spell slots and you may pick a 6 th , 7 th , 8 th and 9 th level spell from
the cleric spell list. These spells count towards your total number of spells known. Wisdom is
your casting modifier for these spells.
- Warlock: Double your known spell slots
- Sorcerer: Gain 10 additional sorcery points
- Bard: Choose an additional spell of your choice from any spell list that you can cast. You can
cast this spell. In addition, your inspiration die and song of rest now count as D20 instead of
D12
- Monk: Gain 10 extra KI points
- Cleric: You can use the divine intervention ability once per seven days without fail. If you
already have the feature, you can now use it twice per seven days.
- Druid: You can Transform into any type of creature. In addition, you can choose to do this
with your normal CR + 5, you can only do this once per short or long rest.
- Paladin: The range of your auras is doubled, in addition every spell slot you smite deals an
additional 1d8 damage
22. Spell Mastery: Choose a first level spell. You can cast it without expending a spell slot. If you roll
this again, choose a second level spell and if you roll it a third time a third level spell. If you
cannot cast spells or if you roll this a fourth time, reroll.
23. Children of the Night: As an action you can become invisible in dim light or darkness.
24. Rise of the Phoenix: If you die, you instead return to live with 50% of your maximum hit points. If
you die again within the same die. You are permanently dead, no death saving throws allowed.
25. Boon of Faith: You can change your faith by redoing your own turn. You may use this ability once
per long rest and you must do so at the end of your turn.
26. Curse of the Faithless: You can force another creature to redo his turn. There is a 50% chance
that the creature will do or attack someone else. You may use this ability once per long rest and
you must do so at the end of the creatures turn.
27. I am Invincible: Any damage from a source or creature in a specific round is reduced to 0. You
must finish a long rest before you can use this ability again.
28. Dimensional Travel: You can use the plane shift spell as an action once per short rest, targeting
yourself only.
29. Quick recovery: use can use a bonus action to regain half your hit point maximum. You can use
this again after you finish a long rest.
30. I am Legend: You gain a legendary resistance (to a maximum of three)
31. Lucky Strike: once per short rest you may roll a D20 to any ability check, saving throw or attack
roll you make.
32. Magic Lore: You may prepare spells from any spell list (reroll if you cannot cast spells)
33. Body Perfect: You don’t need to sleep, eat or drink and you no longer age (also immune to aging
effects) or die of old age. Reroll if undead or monk.
34. Feeling Lucky Punk: Increase your spell save DC by two (casters only), you may only get this
ability twice.
35. Bully: you have as much opportunity attacks as your dexterity modifier (less than +2 Dexterity or
if caster you may reroll). You may use an opportunity attack against creatures that enter your
reach and you have advantage on opportunity attacks
36. Mind Black: You are immune to psychic damage, any effect that would sense its emotions or
read its thoughts, Divination Spells, mind control and the Charmed/sleep condition.
37. Check Mate: You gain advantage in (ability) checks and saving throws of (str, con, dex, wis, cha,
int, roll d6). Reroll if you already have advantage on certain checks.
38. Natural caster: You are able to use Metamagic and you start every day with 1d12 sorcery points.
These points cannot be carried over to the next day. If you are already a sorcerer, these count as
extra sorcery points. Reroll if you are not a caster
39. Free as a bird: Your movement is unaffected by difficult terrain, and spells and other magical effects can neither reduce your speed or movement. You cannot be stunned, paralyzed or restrained. You may spend half your movement to escape from nonmagical restraints, such as manacles or when grappled. Finally, underwater or being in the air imposes no penalties on your
movement or attacks.
40. Choose one of the abilities below


----------



## dave2008 (Feb 24, 2018)

synergy2 said:


> Just an idea, but perhaps consider adding another table to the Epic Weapons for dexterity based characters? As it stands right now, an epic fighter is useless if he isn't using strength since the strength weapons completely outclass any dexterity weapons by a long shot.
> 
> I'd imagine the table could use the exact same format and that the weapons would just be lighter and sharper rather than harder and heavier? Maybe less base damage but more critical strike chance or something? Also to balance out the AC bonus you get automatically from dexterity. You don't want dexterity outshining strength but you also don't want dexterity fighters to never be able to properly use an epic weapon.
> 
> Just my 2 cents!




Sorry I missed your post for so long!  Yes that is something to consider, but to be honest I am not sure what, if anything, I am going to do about it.  After I finish up the first drafts of my epic monsters I am going to be spending some more time with this thread to flesh out some of these ideas (and to get ready for the 2nd draft of my monsters).  Off the top of my head I don't like the idea that it would be the same as the strength table, but I haven't thought about much.  Another problem is I have some bias against Dex based fighters that I need to overcome  

It something I will definitely have to consider when I get back to this thread.


----------



## dave2008 (Feb 24, 2018)

Foxydono said:


> Before I knew of this thread, I made my own epic boons. This was partly because I thought the boons from the DMG were kinda limited. I know you already made your own boon system, but perhaps you can draw some inspiration from the boons I made.
> 
> Boons:
> ...




Wow thank you for sharing.  Many of these are similar to one that I have (or are in the DMG), but you have a lot of interesting ideas here.   I will definitely consider adding some of them when I get back to working on this thread. Thank you again for sharing your ideas!


----------



## synergy2 (May 2, 2018)

Any idea what the "Phantom of Terror" and "Phantom of Bliss" are going to do for the Elder Spell: Illusion?


----------



## dave2008 (May 2, 2018)

synergy2 said:


> Any idea what the "Phantom of Terror" and "Phantom of Bliss" are going to do for the Elder Spell: Illusion?




What are these the "Phantom of Terror" and "Phantom of Bliss" ?


----------



## synergy2 (May 2, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> What are these the "Phantom of Terror" and "Phantom of Bliss" ?




"Phantasm
13th-level Elder Illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Plane, see text
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 day
Prerequisite: CR 40
Cost: 80 QP (permanent)
You reach out with your mind and brush aside the veil or reality, releasing the power of Phantasm. You create a phantasmic reality in the minds of all creatures in range. Tapping into their greatest fears and deepest desires to beguile and frighten as you see fit. All creatures on the plane of existence that you are on are afflicted by a phantasm of your choice from any of the ones described below. Creatures above CR 25 may attempt an Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throw. If the target succeeds on at least one, but not all, saving throws the duration is reduced by half. If it succeeds on all its saving throws the duration is reduced to 1 round.

*Phantasm of Terror. ???

Phantasm of Bliss. ???*

Alternately, this spell can be cast on a single target. In this case, the range is the entire multiverse, all of existence, and the duration is 100 years. "


----------



## dave2008 (May 3, 2018)

synergy2 said:


> "Phantasm
> 13th-level Elder Illusion
> Casting Time: 1 action
> Range: Plane, see text
> ...




Yikes!  I completely forgot about those.  I haven't figure them out yet, that is why they are blank.  I am wrapping up the 1st drafts of my Epic Monster Updates (just about a half dozen to go) and then I will spend some more time on this Epic Character thread.


----------



## Foxydono (May 10, 2018)

Hi Dave,

We are currently playing with your epic boon system, but we made a few changes. I think the changes are something you might want to consider yourself. 

The main thing we changed is regarding the 'epic might' boon. This feat is almost mandatory, because you either do half damage (at least as melee) or you don't do damage at all when facing a greater God. Given the huge amount of benefits it gives (AC, saving throws, ability checks, spell DC, damage, etc.) and the fact that you can take legendary actions boon, every character wants/needs this. Therefore, you will most likely spend the first 30-40 points on it instead of taking more flavorful feats. The second problem with the feat is that you need either a high Con or Cha. This makes it much more attractive for charisma-based characters. Even if you just say it scales of only Con, some characters want the option to play a glass canon and because this feat is so mandatory, you basically force someone to invest their points into Constitution. The third and final problem is that taking this boon is better for melee characters as you can overcome resistances and do full damage, but this is not the case for casters as they are limited in both the spells they can cast due to immunity and the spell resistance. We 'fixed' the above three problems in the following manner:

The epic boon feat can only be taken at the following levels (20, 25, 30, 35 and 40). The first time you take the feat is costs 2 QP and the other times 1 QP. You could change the QP cost as you see fit of course. Every character will want to take it at some point, but it doesn't cost that many QP so you are able to get other feats in between. At level 40 you'll be able to fight greater Gods on even grounds, which should be the idea around this level anyway. This also takes care of the ability score problem. We thought about making it 'you need X in your primary stat, but this makes it even more attractive to take and making it scale with Con (which is no primary stat of any class) still makes it much more beneficial for say barbarians and fighters than for shape shifting druids. Making it available at a certain level therefor seems like a more fair way of handling it. 

For casters we adjusted the following: taking the epic boon feat also overcomes resistances against spell damage in the same manner it does melee damage. So if you have the 5th epic boon feat at level 40, you'll be able to bypass resistance to spell damage v. Gods. Since this is the same for melee it seems fair. Also, we changed the spell immunity a bit of Gods. Casters are quite limited in their spell selection if they can only cast 9th level or higher spells on a God. We also tried to fix this with epic might. Every level of epic might, reduces the spell immunity of a God by 1. So if a God is immune to 8th level spells or lower and you have the 5th epic might feat, it is than only immune to 3rd level spells and lower cast by you. 

This makes it a bit more balanced for casters/melee and you will have some free QP to spend on other boons.


----------



## dave2008 (May 10, 2018)

Foxydono said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> We are currently playing with your epic boon system, but we made a few changes. I think the changes are something you might want to consider yourself.
> 
> ...




Thank you for trying it out and the insightful commentary.  I just wrapped up my first drafts of the 5e Epic Monsters and will be getting back to this thread over the next few months.  One on the major changes will be to "epic might."  Not just the boon in particular, but the whole concept from which it was spawned.  I will be replacing it with Epic Ranks.  I am not entirely sure how this will be implemented, but I believe it will address many of the problems you have discovered.  I will be sure to review your comments as I work on these Epic Character concepts in the near future.  Thank you again for your time and insight - it is very helpful!


----------



## CapnZapp (May 11, 2018)

The problem with older edition epic rules is that they make the fighter fightier, the rogue rougier and the wizard wizardier. 

Which wrecks bounded accuracy. That is, no matter the edition, "epic" has always meant "broken math".

I really think 5E has an opportunity to break away from the old broken model, and instead go for something that doesn't just make your bonuses bigger.


----------



## dave2008 (May 11, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> The problem with older edition epic rules is that they make the fighter fightier, the rogue rougier and the wizard wizardier.
> 
> Which wrecks bounded accuracy. That is, no matter the edition, "epic" has always meant "broken math".
> 
> I really think 5E has an opportunity to break away from the old broken model, and instead go for something that doesn't just make your bonuses bigger.




I am thinking along the same lines (a big reason for the future 2nd draft of my Epic Monsters ).  I think I can solve some of that with Epic Ranks.  I hope to have some more concrete ideas posted in a month or 2.  There will be some bigger bonuses, but I am hoping to avoid the broken math in my current epic monsters.


----------



## dave2008 (May 13, 2018)

I have updated the OP with the proposed ToC for the Immortal Players Guide and the Immortal DM's Guide.  Subject to serious changes, but it is a starting point to get this project rolling again.


----------



## dave2008 (Aug 10, 2018)

I have finally started updating this thread.  I have updated the OP (slightly) and upload my first draft chapter (chapter #7, post #9).  Please note that all of the comments before this post will relate to the old content and no longer make sense - sorry!  I decided to update this thread instead of starting a new thread.


----------



## dave2008 (Aug 16, 2018)

I have added the introduction (post #2) to my Immortals project.


----------



## dave2008 (Aug 19, 2018)

I have updated page 3 of chapter 7 to include the optional rule for worshiper prerequisites for advancing in epic rank.


----------



## dave2008 (Aug 26, 2018)

I have added chapter 1.  This chapter is about the basics of making an Immortal character and is the foundation for the rest of this work.  I have also update chapter 7 to coordinate with chapter 1.

Please note as always that this is a draft.  It needs proofing, editing, and some better writing and formating.  At this point I am just trying to get my ideas down.  Please let me know your thoughts.


----------



## dave2008 (Sep 11, 2018)

Updates:
1) Added chapter 3
2) Revised chapter 1 to add variant rules for Hit Points and Armor Class 
3) Minor revisions to chapter 7 to coordinate with chapter 3

Chapter 3 is pretty rough and will like change quite a bit before I finish this 1st draft.  I also realize that after this 1st draft is complete I will probably want to re-organize things, but that is one of the things I hope to get feedback on.


----------



## Nekristus1 (Oct 27, 2018)

First of all, I'd like to Congratulate you for your great work. The ammount of effort you've put is phenomenal and seems to be building up to something great. I'd like to ask you how the Immortal book is going, I've not seen anything for a few months. Your Epic Monsters Update is really great btw, I've been using it and it really makes up for a challenge of epic proportions, just like it should be in the first place. Keep up the good work! 

PS: You had a great list of boons written here in the main page. I know you are going to redesign the whole >Level 20 thing but those were a great insight on what you're planning to do. Are they still available?


----------



## dave2008 (Oct 27, 2018)

Nekristus1 said:


> First of all, I'd like to Congratulate you for your great work. The ammount of effort you've put is phenomenal and seems to be building up to something great. I'd like to ask you how the Immortal book is going, I've not seen anything for a few months. Your Epic Monsters Update is really great btw, I've been using it and it really makes up for a challenge of epic proportions, just like it should be in the first place. Keep up the good work!




Thank you for the kind words.  I am still working on it.  I am working on the magic and spells section at the moment, which is not my strong suit so it is taking some time.  I am also sidelined at the moment by work and family life.  I should have more time in November.  I have a first draft of all the epic spells (or all I am going to issue in this first draft of the Immortal Rules) completed and I just need to write the general guide on epic magic, epic spell crafting, and then do a balance check on the spells.  I hope sometime in November to get it posted.



Nekristus1 said:


> PS: You had a great list of boons written here in the main page. I know you are going to redesign the whole >Level 20 thing but those were a great insight on what you're planning to do. Are they still available?




I took them down from the 1st page and I was supposed to move them to post #12 "Old Stuff,"  however it looks like I forgot too.  I will get them re-posted soon and let you know.


----------



## dave2008 (Oct 27, 2018)

Nekristus1 said:


> PS: You had a great list of boons written here in the main page. I know you are going to redesign the whole >Level 20 thing but those were a great insight on what you're planning to do. Are they still available?




I re-posted the epic boons here:  Old Stuff


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## norn (Nov 2, 2018)

Hi there! Do you happen to have more info on what the divine authorities do? There isnt anything beyond the first little explanation of what they are in either the old stuff, or the new material. Love this approach, btw.


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## dave2008 (Nov 2, 2018)

norn said:


> Hi there! Do you happen to have more info on what the divine authorities do? There isnt anything beyond the first little explanation of what they are in either the old stuff, or the new material. Love this approach, btw.




I am working on Epic Magic at the moment, then I am going to work on Divine Authority.  I can give you a little more info, but I am still formulating the actual "rules."

Not all epic creatures have "Authority."   Right now I am thinking it is limited to Gods and Primordials, with perhaps a few specific exceptions.  

Authority is what a god uses when it wants to perform miracles.   Within the area of influence (which increases with divine rank), the god can bend or break reality as it so desires.  It is a limited resource:  you can use it once per day / epic rank.  The higher rank you are the greater the "miracle" you can perform.  I haven't decided if this is from simply being higher rank, or if you have to spend more uses of Authority (which you have because your higher rank), or some combination of the two.

I have some basic examples of what you can do with it (the elder spells from the old version of this thread were modified to make them), but it is currently intended to be open and free-form.  But I will see when I get into it more if I stick with that approach.  I am starting to think magic and authority are colliding more than I originally intended.  So I may revise magic after  write the Authority chapter.  We will see.


----------



## dave2008 (Feb 14, 2019)

*UPDATE:
I am starting a new zine as part of the Zine Quest initiative by kickstarter to continue to explore epic/immortal rules. You can view the kickstarter campaign before it goes live. Here is the link to the preview page: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1443596074/1919389916?ref=753953&token=c8dc98f5
You can leave comments if you like. I always enjoy input. Also, this does not mark the end of my epic updates on Enworld. However, the frequent request for art and lore to accompany my epic stat blocks as lead me to hiring artist and writers to help out - and I can't keep doing that with out some financing. So I will prioritizing the kickstater / dms guild products in the future, but I will still post updates here as well. Most likely first drafts here and upated drafts in the zine.

Thank you! for your interest and support!

Sincerely - dave*


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## dave2008 (Feb 20, 2019)

The epic update kickstarter is live!  Here is my press release:

*Ascension – the Codex of Immortals* RPG Zine Kickstarter is now live! If you are interested in epic and immortal games for the 5th edition of the world’s greatest role-playing game, please check it out here: 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1443596074/ascension-the-codex-of-immortals?ref=project_build#

Ascension is a quarterly RPG zine focusing on epic and immortal gaming for Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition. Each issue will be 32-48 pages of epic and immortal goodness featuring rules for playing gods; lore, stats, and art for at least 4 deities/epic monsters; and mythic relics and artifacts for your epic games. The goal of Ascension is two-fold:

1) Provide epic monsters and guidelines that can be used with standard 5th edition rules and some of the existing 3rd party epic supplements currently available, and more substantially…

2)    Provide a set of variant rules and guidelines for taking characters and monsters beyond the realms of mortals. Allowing players to grow their characters from mere demigods to the heights of the greater gods or even pantheon heads. These variant rules sit on top of the 5e chassis allowing players to shed the trapping of levels and class and instead embark on the quest to gain epic ranks, worship, and increase their Authority and Influence among mortals and immortals a like.

Take your characters and games where 5th edition has never gone before with *Ascension – the Codex of Immortals*.


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## Sadras (Feb 21, 2019)

Backed! 

Out of interest @_*dave2008*_ did you look at Marco Dalmonte's 2006 fan-made _Codex Immortalis_ for Mystara which was translated (with help of course) by Gary Davies by 2011?


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## dave2008 (Feb 21, 2019)

Sadras said:


> Backed!
> 
> Out of interest @_*dave2008*_ did you look at Marco Dalmonte's 2006 fan-made _Codex Immortalis_ for Mystara which was translated (with help of course) by Gary Davies by 2011?




I have looked at it!  It is basically a version of the Immortal Rules/Wrath of the Immortals but specifically for Mystara.  It is one of the inspirations for my work on Immortal/deity rules.

PS - thank you for backing the KS


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## dave2008 (Feb 24, 2019)

Updated the OP with cover art from Ascension, the Codex of Immortals


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## dave2008 (Mar 12, 2019)

Sorry, I forgot to update everyone, the kickstarter is funded! The 2nd draft of the 5e Epic Updates will get the art and lore it deserves!. But there are still more stretch goals within reach and new print reward tiers to enjoy, so if you haven't jumped on board yet - now is the time!
Ascension: the Codex of Immortals


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## CruxfieldVictor (May 8, 2019)

My apologies in being a pest but I missed the deadline to fund the Kickstarter so I can't ask questions any other way: Since the delay, is there a new ETA for the first issue or is it still up in the air? Thank you in advance!


----------



## dave2008 (May 9, 2019)

CruxfieldVictor said:


> My apologies in being a pest but I missed the deadline to fund the Kickstarter so I can't ask questions any other way: Since the delay, is there a new ETA for the first issue or is it still up in the air? Thank you in advance!




Yes, I hope to have it sooner, but the current schedule is the first issue will be available at the end of June.  Exact date TBD.


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## CruxfieldVictor (May 19, 2019)

Fair enough! Thank you for the response and I wish you good luck in getting it out there!


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## Thirteenspades (Aug 5, 2020)

So I made this epic spell, the format is different as it's built as an ability for a monster- Orcus Divine, to be exact. He's become CR 40 (therefore being able to cast the Last Word again) when he discovers the shard of Tenebrous' soul when he was still a full-fledged deity, then he kills Demogorgon and takes over the Abyss. This is probably WAY overpowered, but what the Abyss, it's supposed to be. Orcus' innate spellcasting ability is Intelligence.


Spoiler: read if you dare!



*Unholy Meteor Storm (1/Day):*
 Ranged Spell Attack: +20 to succeed, reach 5 miles. Hit: 79 (20d6 + 9) fire damage and equal amounts of bludgeoning and necrotic damage, or half of each on a successful saving throw.
"Blazing orbs of evil energy plummet to the ground at 40 different points within a 600 ft radius sphere. Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose must make a DC 35 Dexterity saving throw. The sphere spreads around corners. A creature in the area of more than one black meteor is affected an according number of times."
Unholy Meteor Storm damages objects in the area and ignites flammable objects.


----------



## NotAYakk (Aug 5, 2020)

So the immortal variant...

In general, I find games where you spend "XP" to do cool stuff in the game annoying.  While I get the strategic gameplay of "husband power to use it more efficiently", I personally think that making a cool god-weapon shouldn't be a stupid thing that makes you a lower level god.

I'd instead want to encourage players to take their QP (aka XP) and spend it on changing the world.  This might also risk that QP.

The God creating a plane is an investment of QP, not a *spending* of QP.  Destroying the plane does hurt the God, so there is some risk, but QP that just sits inside the god does nothing useful.

Similarly, I'd vote against your "point buy level up" system.  "Spend QP on HD" -- rather, gaining QP should give you HD.  Understanding the balance of a point-buy system is cute, but this is D&D not spreadsheets and calculators.  Don't get me wrong, I love doing math, but as the writer you should do the math, the DM and players shouldn't.

Third, one of the things many many editions of D&D have claimed is that Gods are just a bit beyond the realm of mortals.  Sure, they have insane special abilities, like the ability to create avatars, destroy continents, etc.  Your system is crazy-exponential: and I don't think we need that for fun immortal play.

Imagine we just do a little tweak.

Demigod: Level 20 mortal with max HD, plus 1d20 HD per demigod level.

Each Demigod level might grant +1 to all attributes and +1 to all attribute cap or something, along with epic boon tier abilities (maybe more than 1 per level).  Maybe 1 QP per level.  Each QP would be *tied* to some permanent alternation of reality (a plane, an artifact, etc).  Each Demigod level gives you 1 such "manifestation".  So at Demigod, you have 5 "level 1" manifestations.

Demigod PCs would be a step above level 20 PCs in power.  Each demigod level might be "worth" 2 points of CR roughly; so a level 5 Demigod might find CR 30 fights "even".

And maybe 5 Demigod levels, so caps out at 26 max in stats.

Lesser God: Level 5 demigod can ascend to being a lesser power.  5 levels again, and 2d20 HD per level (so 20 mortal HD, plus 15d20 as a god).  Stats might go up +1 per level, so caps out at 30 stat.  3 QP per level, so you go from 1-5 QP as a demigod, to 8-20 QP as a lesser god.

As a Lesser Power you can invest 2 QP in a manifestation.  So by level 5 lesser power, you have 5 level 2 manifestations.

Power Level 5 lesser power can ascend to being a power.  5 levels again, and 4d20 HD per level (20 mortal HD, 35d20 as a god).  Stats go up +1 per level, so caps out at 35 stat.  3 QP per level, so 23-45 QP as a greater god.  You can end up with 15 manifestations, each with 3 QP.

Greater Power.  Level 5 power can ascend to being a greater power.  7 QP per level, so 52-80 QP, and 20 manifestations each with 4 QP.  Stats go up +1 per level, so 40 max stat.

Each tier is worth +1 proficiency as well.


----------



## Thirteenspades (Aug 5, 2020)

NotAYakk said:


> I'd instead want to encourage players to take their QP (aka XP) and spend it on changing the world.  This might also risk that QP.
> 
> The God creating a plane is an investment of QP, not a *spending* of QP.  Destroying the plane does hurt the God, so there is some risk, but QP that just sits inside the god does nothing useful.
> 
> ...



Like if you earn points in a game and are rewarded something when you _REACH_ the point level, not _SPEND_ it.


----------



## NotAYakk (Aug 5, 2020)

Thirteenspades said:


> Like if you earn points in a game and are rewarded something when you _REACH_ the point level, not _SPEND_ it.



Or rather, when your points in a game are based on what you have bought in the game, not on your unspent points.

I get the strategy of "horde points for victory condition", I just don't really like it in my RPG.  I've disliked it ever since I saw it way back in shadowrun karma (which was both hero points and XP; so by doing heroic and risky things, you slow down your character advancement.  Meh.)

---

Now what I sketched has issues.  The QP are a bit funny money, and don't work well as XP because they are "too big" at demigod level.

*Manifestation*: A manifestation has up to 4 tiers.  Demigods can only create rank 1 manifestations, lesser powers rank 2, powers rank 3 and greater powers rank 4.

The QP you need to invest in a manifestation is:
Rank 1: 10
Rank 2: 30 (or 20 additional)
Rank 3: 60 (or 30 additional)
Rank 4: 100 (or 40 additional)

You can have 1 manifestation, plus 1 per divine level, at a time.  If you go below your divine level in manifestations you lose that divine level.  If this causes your manifestations to be above your rank, each day they have a 1 in 20 chance of degrading.



Spoiler



Quadradic here



*Divine Rank*: each rank of divine (demigod, lesser power, power and greater power) has 5 levels for a total of 20 divine levels.  In order to reach the next level as a divine, you need create a manifestation at the rank appropriate for your new level.  When you do so, one of your existing lower-Rank manifestations also upgrades to your full Rank.



Spoiler



Building your power based on your _stuff_, not on your points, and spend points on stuff.  Story generation



*Earning QP*: When you earn QP, you halve it for every Rank past Demigod.  So a Rank 4 divine earns QP at 1/8 the rate of a Demigod.  



Spoiler



This gives exponentially times quadratically slower progression at higher ranks, and if breaking a manifestation of another divine frees  up the QP, it makes this non-zero-sum.  Where does QP come from?  If there is only a fixed amount, then gods spiral downward in total power over time...



---

Now this becomes a game of inventing fun manifestations to have, and giving them 4 ranks based on the tier of god.  An Avatar can be a manifestation, an artifact weapon, a plane, etc.

You could also limit the number of manifestations of a given type to your divine rank.  So a demigod can have one artifact weapon, a lesser power 2, a power 3 and a greater power 4.  That would help reduce "manifestation optimization".  Also, as at least some kinds of manifestations aren't on your person, it provides adventure hooks (your manifestation is in danger!)


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## dave2008 (Aug 6, 2020)

Thirteenspades said:


> So I made this epic spell, the format is different as it's built as an ability for a monster- Orcus Divine, to be exact. He's become CR 40 (therefore being able to cast the Last Word again) when he discovers the shard of Tenebrous' soul when he was still a full-fledged deity, then he kills Demogorgon and takes over the Abyss. This is probably WAY overpowered, but what the Abyss, it's supposed to be. Orcus' innate spellcasting ability is Intelligence.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: read if you dare!
> ...



Sorry for the late reply - I wasn't watching my own darn thread!

As noted the language and format are off, but that is not big deal. First question, what level is this supposed to be? In general it is fine, I don't like that the overlapping damage stacks, that takes it from probably a little under power to potentially crazy over powered.  Unless I am not understanding the intent.

Interestingly, at one point I had the Last Word as an elder spell: primal semi-sentient spells that are the foundation of reality.  They simple must exist and must have a host and only the host can use the spell. Orcus wasn't powerful enough to use it full power though and eventual had to give it up.  At full power the spell could destroy a plane or possible the multiverse itself.


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## dave2008 (Aug 6, 2020)

NotAYakk said:


> So the immortal variant...
> 
> In general, I find games where you spend "XP" to do cool stuff in the game annoying.  While I get the strategic gameplay of "husband power to use it more efficiently", I personally think that making a cool god-weapon shouldn't be a stupid thing that makes you a lower level god.
> 
> ...



@NotAYakk , thank you for the comments.  I am not going to get to much into it, but I basically agree with you and I have pretty much changed everything about this some what.  I'm publishing the first issue soon, so I don't want to go into to many details.  But I have gone back to a more traditional divine level thing where you get standard things (like HD) at each level.  You spend QP to express your Authority which is used to create planes, artifacts, and change reality (within the range of your aura).

If I get more time I will look into your ideas in more detail.  Thanks for sharing!


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## dave2008 (Aug 6, 2020)

NotAYakk said:


> Third, one of the things many many editions of D&D have claimed is that Gods are just a bit beyond the realm of mortals.



2e, 4e, and 5e all have gods that are outside the realm of mortal play.  4e and 5e have some gods that are mortal adjacent too.  However, i am not really interested in creating that paradigm. In this version, I am going back to the 2e version (and BECMI) and making gods outside the realm of mortals.  Mortals can dare with their avatars.


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## dave2008 (Aug 6, 2020)

NotAYakk said:


> Or rather, when your points in a game are based on what you have bought in the game, not on your unspent points.
> 
> I get the strategy of "horde points for victory condition", I just don't really like it in my RPG.  I've disliked it ever since I saw it way back in shadowrun karma (which was both hero points and XP; so by doing heroic and risky things, you slow down your character advancement.  Meh.)
> 
> ...



Again thank you for your thoughts and comments. Before I respond in more detail, could you clarify what you are calling a manifestation?  Unless I missed it is unclear what you mean by that term.


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## NotAYakk (Aug 6, 2020)

dave2008 said:


> Again thank you for your thoughts and comments. Before I respond in more detail, could you clarify what you are calling a manifestation?  Unless I missed it is unclear what you mean by that term.



Ah.  Manifestation is the name for what you stuff QP into.

Thor's Hammer.  Valhalla itself.  An army of Valkaries that harvest the heros of battle.  The rainbow bridge.

Each power gets 1 manifestation per divine level.  This means players are _world building_ as gods.  They earn QP, stuff them into a manifestation (of their divine will), and gain a divine level.

Each kind of manifestation has a rank.  Rank 1 gods (level 1-5, aka demigods) can only have rank 1 manifestations.  At level 5, they can make their first rank 2 manifestation, which levels them up to divine level 6 (rank 2, lesser power).

The act of manifesting their will with QP is what gives them divine levels.

This links world building with advancement.  And all of those manifestations are things the power has to defend.

Manifestation categories:
Artifact (wrapon, armor, etc)
Avatar (projection of self)
Plane (a home base)
Host (an planar army that does a task)
Church (a mortal organization that performs miracles)
Nexus (a location of power, grove, henge, ley line, fortress)
Rivalry (A bond of battle with a divine foe)
Doom (A divine curse on someone or somethings)

I could imagine 4 ranks of each of the above, vague enough to allow creativity.

Why do gods havd worshippers?  Because it is a manifestation of their will.  And those manifestations are what anchor divine power.

They don't gain power from mortals.  They pour power into mortals, and use them as anchors for that power.


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## dave2008 (Aug 6, 2020)

NotAYakk said:


> Ah.  Manifestation is the name for what you stuff QP into.
> 
> Thor's Hammer.  Valhalla itself.  An army of Valkaries that harvest the heros of battle.  The rainbow bridge.
> 
> ...



OK, interesting and definitely has similarities to what I am doing, i even have 5 divine levels for each rank (what I call "Exalted Rank")

ER 1 - Demigod
ER 2 - Lesser god
ER 3 - Intermediate god
ER 4 - Greater god
ER 5 - Elder god
ER 6 - Over god

However, I simply allow them to gain levels and ranks by acquiring QP (with an optional rule for a divine Olympics as in the Immortal Rules).  Speaking of which, how are you envisioning characters / gods gain QP?

Also, I do allow god to gain power from worshipers (it is an optional rule), but it is not required and only a small amount. It gives them a reason to have worshipers and be interested in them.  

I both like and don't like the idea of linking advancement to world building. It is fun idea and might be fun to play, but it seems oddly restricting for a god to depending on "world-building" to advance.  I want more freedom for my gods.  However, it does remind me of an optional rule set I am working one which I am calling "God Mode" currently (just a working title).  Which is a mini-game of world building where rounds are measured in years as you interact and influnce the world and your worshipers.  The idea being by gaining more worshipers you gain more QP.  It is just a concept at the moment i'm saving that for issue 5 or 6.  So this way world building is an option, but not required.

Anyway, a lot of great ideas.  Thank you for sharing.


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## NotAYakk (Aug 6, 2020)

dave2008 said:


> However, I simply allow them to gain levels and ranks by acquiring QP (with an optional rule for a divine Olympics as in the Immortal Rules).  Speaking of which, how are you envisioning characters / gods gain QP?



I was basing mine of of yours, and didn't change that.  Break other god's Manifestations, kill other gods, find external sources.

The "you get a fraction of the QP you are exposed to" past demigod means that inter-god conflict is negative sum; it reduces the total QP in play.  So external sources of QP provide a campaign drive.


> Also, I do allow god to gain power from worshipers (it is an optional rule), but it is not required and only a small amount. It gives them a reason to have worshipers and be interested in them.



I get it; but when I came up with the manifestation idea, I realized that a church could be just another manifestation.  As important to a god as their signature hammer, no more no less.  Sucks to lose it, but it isn't a source of their power; rather, it is a place their power is grounded.


> I both like and don't like the idea of linking advancement to world building. It is fun idea and might be fun to play, but it seems oddly restricting for a god to depending on "world-building" to advance.



So part of the point of rules is to provide an engine to create story.

(a) I want gods to have fun toys.
(b) If fun toys are free, they aren't as fun.
(c) If fun toys are expensive, players don't to play with them much.
(d) If fun toys are sub-optimal, you get an annoying conflict in the player's experience.

So making a limited number of fun toys free as part of advancement.

The idea that "thor's hammer" actually contains a bit of Thor's divine essence is a really cool one.  If you extend this to all of a God's works -- plane, forts, angels -- it provides you with fun toys, in limited numbers, that the god wants to both protect and use.

Instead of "wave your hand, rainbow bridge" or "spend 100 years using crafting rules, rainbow bridge" it is "become a power, rainbow bridge".

The god doesn't get "I can teleport anywhere in creation because I'm a greater power", it gets "I control a rainbow bridge that lets me teleport anywhere in creation, because I am a power, and invested some of my QP in it".  They have "godlike power", but not arbitrary godlike power -- their godlike powers are tied to their manifestations.

I mean, a greater power's "plane" rank 4 manifestation might be "a prime material plane".  That is pretty darn impressive; literally a campaign setting as a "class feature".  At the same time, they aren't making prime material planes willy-nilly (it is 5%+ of that greater god's divine power budget), nor does it require a time-skip of a few million years of god-crafting.  A rank 4 "allies" might be a pantheon.


> I want more freedom for my gods.



Where is the story being generated if they can do anything?

Restrictions provide scaffolding to create a story.

I started from the QP->artifact and QP->advancement ideas, and ran with it.  Make it QP->artifact->advancement, and every god has weak points, every god can be whittled away at, and (most importantly) every god changes the universe.

Now, some solitary NPC god could have some strange set of manifestations that are hidden or whatever.

This also gives "outer beings" like the far realm a reason why they are pushing into this universe and ... manifesting.  Their manifestations in this realm anchor their powers to this realm.  Fighting and purging those manifestations is like keeping termites from eating your house.


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## dave2008 (Aug 6, 2020)

NotAYakk said:


> I was basing mine of of yours, and didn't change that.  Break other god's Manifestations, kill other gods, find external sources.
> 
> The "you get a fraction of the QP you are exposed to" past demigod means that inter-god conflict is negative sum; it reduces the total QP in play.  So external sources of QP provide a campaign drive.



OK, that is just a portion of the sources in the current rules.  You can get QP from fonts, artifacts, and worshipers, in addition to directly from other exalted.



NotAYakk said:


> I get it; but when I came up with the manifestation idea, I realized that a church could be just another manifestation.  As important to a god as their signature hammer, no more no less.  Sucks to lose it, but it isn't a source of their power; rather, it is a place their power is grounded.



Again, it is an interesting idea.  Just not the route I'm taking.


NotAYakk said:


> So part of the point of rules is to provide an engine to create story.
> 
> (a) I want gods to have fun toys.
> (b) If fun toys are free, they aren't as fun.
> ...



Yes, that is what I am doing in the current version.



NotAYakk said:


> The idea that "thor's hammer" actually contains a bit of Thor's divine essence is a really cool one.  If you extend this to all of a God's works -- plane, forts, angels -- it provides you with fun toys, in limited numbers, that the god wants to both protect and use.
> 
> Instead of "wave your hand, rainbow bridge" or "spend 100 years using crafting rules, rainbow bridge" it is "become a power, rainbow bridge".
> 
> ...



Lots of great ideas and similar to what I am doing in the new version; however, you've taken it a bit further conceptually.  I am not personally so tied to the idea of "manifestations" as you are - but I do like it and it is not incompatible with what I am doing now. However, I think it would have to be more fully incorporated in issue 5+.



NotAYakk said:


> Where is the story being generated if they can do anything?
> 
> Restrictions provide scaffolding to create a story.
> 
> ...



I never said they could do anything.  My gods definitely have restrictions. 

Personally I have been vacillating about how much I should limit.  Initially it was completely free form and you just spend QP to get/do things.  Then I did an almost 180 and made it very similar to standard D&D with set gains at each level & rank with restricted uses based on rest.  Now I have a combination of the two.  However, I've begun to feel that I have too many subsystems and it is getting overly complex.  Maybe your manifestation concept is a method to simplify things and have a unifying concept.  I will definitely look at it through that lens after I get the draft complete.


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## Thirteenspades (Aug 6, 2020)

dave2008 said:


> Also, I do allow god to gain power from worshipers (it is an optional rule), but it is not required and only a small amount. It gives them a reason to have worshipers and be interested in them.



Yeah, the number of worshippers should play a part. Not at the level of MOOT though (in typical campaigns). Also, having very few or no worshippers shouldn't reduce a power to nothing (in the case of certain unknown apocalyptic beings). More like a boon or a convenience than a means to achieve an end.


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## dave2008 (Aug 6, 2020)

Thirteenspades said:


> Yeah, the number of worshippers should play a part. Not at the level of MOOT though (in typical campaigns). Also, having very few or no worshippers shouldn't reduce a power to nothing (in the case of certain unknown apocalyptic beings). More like a boon or a convenience than a means to achieve an end.



Yes, currently worshipers only give you more power, a lack of them never reduces your power.


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## Thirteenspades (Aug 6, 2020)

dave2008 said:


> Sorry for the late reply - I wasn't watching my own darn thread!
> 
> As noted the language and format are off, but that is not big deal. First question, what level is this supposed to be? In general it is fine, I don't like that the overlapping damage stacks, that takes it from probably a little under power to potentially crazy over powered.  Unless I am not understanding the intent.
> 
> Interestingly, at one point I had the Last Word as an elder spell: primal semi-sentient spells that are the foundation of reality.  They simple must exist and must have a host and only the host can use the spell. Orcus wasn't powerful enough to use it full power though and eventual had to give it up.  At full power the spell could destroy a plane or possible the multiverse itself.



Here is a revised version of the spell, now in spell format instead of monster attack.


Spoiler: READ IF YOU DARE



Black Rain
12th-level Evocation
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 5 miles
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Prerequisite: CR 38
Cost: 4QP
"Blazing orbs of evil energy plummet to the ground at 40 different points within a 200 ft radius sphere. They have an AC of 21, 180 hit points and are Huge size. Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose must make a Dexterity saving throw based on your level + your Intelligence modifier. On a success, the creature may spend a move action to avoid the meteor and take the nearest space next to it. On a failure, the creature suffers 20D6 + (your intelligence modifier) each of fire, bludgeoning and necrotic damage, and is restrained under the meteor or knocked prone (caster's choice). 
The sphere spreads around corners. 
A creature in the area of more than one black meteor must make seperate saving throws and on a success suffers half damage and on both a failure and success is restrained under the meteor or knocked prone (caster's choice). Each creature that suffers more than one meteor strike suffers 5 less Hit Dice of damage (minimum 5)." 
Each round, a creature restrained under the Meteor may make a DC 38 Strength saving throw. Targets of a size category above medium have a cumulative +10 advantage, and creatures under medium have a -15 disadvantage. On a failure it suffers 65 (10D12) bludgeoning damage - the creature's Constitution modifier and 39 fire damage, half of both on a success.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell at 13th level, double the damage of each effect, add 20 more meteors and increase the radius by 200 feet.


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## dave2008 (Aug 6, 2020)

Thirteenspades said:


> Here is a revised version of the spell, now in spell format instead of monster attack.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: READ IF YOU DARE
> ...



Thanks for sharing!
You changed quite a bit.  First comment: there are no 13th level spells, so you could remove the "At Higher levels" part.   

In general I feel this spell lacks a bit of focus and is trying to a bit of everything.  Additionally, it seems needless complex and I think I understand the intent, but I am not sure I understand the mechanics.  For one thing, there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid being restrained and then there is no way to end that condition:

"...on both a failure and success is restrained under the meteor..." and "...Each round, a creature restrained under the Meteor may make a DC 38 Strength saving throw. .., half of both on a success..."

No mention of how to avoid or stop being restrained.

Also, the meteors are described as Huge (15x15) and yet they cause bludgeoning damage in a 40 ft. radius which implies they explode.  However, they don't because the targets are also pinned beneath them. But is that just in the 15x15 area of the meteor, or the whole 40' radius (which doesn't really make sense).

Also, the stacking damage is still a problem IMO. It wants to be both massive damage (stacking) and huge area damage (basically the whole 20ft radius if space properly).

I guess spells that do multiple things (area damage, massive damage, restraining) can work, but they tend to very thematic (like prismatic spray & wall).  I feel this one might need another draft. I just feel it is a bit unclear.

"


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## Haldrik (Aug 7, 2020)

For many reasons, reallife and gaming, I would focus more on immortality and less on being worshiped as a god. Let each setting explain any relevant social status for any long-living creatures. Relatedly, D&D 4e had many different kinds of epic destinies, including nonreligious attainment. There can be epic Wizard with alchemical philosopher stone, Archfey Elf becoming epic, Elementalist transmogrifying, Psionic Mind, and so on. All of them achieve immortality.


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## dave2008 (Aug 7, 2020)

Haldrik said:


> For many reasons, reallife and gaming, I would focus more on immortality and less on being worshiped as a god. Let each setting explain any relevant social status for any long-living creatures. Relatedly, D&D 4e had many different kinds of epic destinies, including nonreligious attainment. There can be epic Wizard with alchemical philosopher stone, Archfey Elf becoming epic, Elementalist transmogrifying, Psionic Mind, and so on. All of them achieve immortality.



Thank you for the post.  However, i don't know what your talking about.  Are you responding to something in particular?


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## Haldrik (Aug 7, 2020)

dave2008 said:


> Thank you for the post.  However, i don't know what your talking about.  Are you responding to something in particular?



The OP and following posts generally, its titles and ways of characterizing epic.


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## dave2008 (Aug 7, 2020)

Haldrik said:


> The OP and following posts generally, its titles and ways of characterizing epic.



OK, what do you mean by "...focus on immortality..."? I can think of a couple different ways to take that and am curious what you meant.

Also, I am not planning on doing anything setting specific at this time.  I am also specifically not trying to create "epic wizards." like 4e epic destinies or other epic character class methods.  There are several options (on the DMsGuild and UA Reddit) that cover that type of game.  This project is to allow character's to transcend the mortal realm and play gods.  So for this game the baseline is immortality, not the goal.

PS.  Notice the thread is called "Immortal Rules" not epic rules.  Epic is for mortal PCs, this is something different.

PSS These rules are terribly out of date (the OP was 3 years ago).  I am getting ready to published an update version of these rules, so I haven't been posting updates here in a long time.


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## dungeondummy233 (Apr 6, 2021)

do you have all of this in a pdf?


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## dave2008 (Apr 6, 2021)

dungeondummy233 said:


> do you have all of this in a pdf?



Not the these rules.  They are old.  I've moved on to version two, see below.  When those rules are complete I will make a PDF, probably in about a year or so. The epic monsters are compiled in a PDF: 5e Epic Monster Updates, though the work with 5e I also consider them outdated designs.  Some of these have already been updated here: 5e Updates: Monstrous Compendium, other will be added to Book 3 below.

ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 1: Player's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 2: GM's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 3: Friends & Foes


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## Brandon Looper (Jun 25, 2022)

Hello! I was introduced to the Epic Monster Update PDF and I absolutely love it!!! As I'm going through it I'm seeing a lot of blanks. Is there a more completed version?


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## dave2008 (Jun 25, 2022)

Brandon Looper said:


> Hello! I was introduced to the Epic Monster Update PDF and I absolutely love it!!! As I'm going through it I'm seeing a lot of blanks. Is there a more completed version?



No, I am updating the whole project.  Some of the monsters are included in my 5e Updates: Monstrous Compendium, however, most them will be moved to (and monster / gods added) to my ASCENSION books for immortal / deity rules:

ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 1: Player's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 2: GM's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 3: Friends & Foes


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