# 6 npc designer reviews at the same time



## lior_shapira

Maybe i'm missing something, but isn't it an amazing coincidence(im fighting the instinct to put double quotes around this word) that NPC Designer got Six(Edit: thought it was 5) 5-star reviews one after another in the reviews database in under 24 hours?

weird.
lior.


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## Zulithe

See this thread:
http://www.rpgattitude.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=485


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## Mystery Man

I've been using NPC Designer for about 6 months or so now and I can vouch for those reviews. It's a great product.


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## Sir Brennen

Personally, I'd only count one of those as an actual _review_.  The others weren't very informative.

Almost wish ENWorld had that "was this review helpful to you?" button that Amazon does.


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## MonsterMash

Got to admit that I'd pretty much ignore reviews when its the only thing that user has ever posted at ENWorld. The reviews from the regular posters I'll have a higher trust in as at least I know those guys are not just posting it purely to hype the product. 

Actually a better strategy for a publisher would be to have reviews posted every few days so that the product name keeps showing up on the front page.


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## JimAde

Zulithe said:
			
		

> See this thread:
> http://www.rpgattitude.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=485




Access Denied!  Can you tell us the gist of it?


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## Knight Otu

Vascant said:
			
		

> If anyone has not noticed NPC Designer is now also available at ENWorld Game Store, this also has opened up room for some reviews. In 5 months the only person who has really given any kind of a review has been Mr Cook on his own site, be nice if some other users would share their honest review NPC Designer.




Each of the reviewers is a seperate user of NPCDesigner.


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## Mystery Man

JimAde said:
			
		

> Access Denied!  Can you tell us the gist of it?





From the thread...



> If anyone has not noticed NPC Designer is now also available at ENWorld Game Store, this also has opened up room for some reviews. In 5 months the only person who has really given any kind of a review has been Mr Cook on his own site, be nice if some other users would share their honest review NPC Designer.
> 
> The link: http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=product&productid=1605 06
> 
> Version 1.0.110
> 1. NPC.ModWeapon Enhanced with two new tags: attackbonus and damagebonus
> 2. All of the Half Dragon Paragon Scripts have been updated (Mbaima)
> 3. Harpy Script Added (Redshirt)
> 4. Blind dog, Hell Hound, Worg and Winter Wolf Scripts Added (Mbaima)


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## JimAde

Ah.  I get it.  So Vascant posted in his own forums saying, "Hey the products not getting a lot of reviews." and people responded.  Seems reasonable.  That certainly explains the spike in reviews.


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## TheLe

JimAde said:
			
		

> Ah.  I get it.  So Vascant posted in his own forums saying, "Hey the products not getting a lot of reviews." and people responded.  Seems reasonable.  That certainly explains the spike in reviews.




Personally, I have absolutely no problem with his request, nor do I think he is responsible with 6 reviews suddenly popping up on enworld.

What I have a problem with is the quality of the content. At least 3 of them are more like _comments_ rather than reviews. 

Is it really a review if someone gives the book 1 star and only says "this sucks"? Conversely is it really a review if someone gives a book 5 stars and only says "this book rulez d00ds"?

~Le


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## Mystery Man

Well, I guess now ENworld needs a "review of the reviews" section.


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## Vascant

I am responsible in a way, I wrote the blurb on my update email to my current customers.  It was not on the forum because I felt it only had merit with customers.  Personally I like to hear what my current customers have to say, good and bad, it helps me plan out what do or add next.  

  In truth the review is not just for you but for me as well, personally if you are not going to take 2 seconds and download the demo and learn for yourself then NPC Designer won't solve your problems.  The reviews do help me learn more about my customers and people in general.  Selling on ENGS is a test for me because I have been selling on my site for 5 months and things have been going very well.  I am a professional programmer though and not one into business, so rather then stop selling it Chris suggested this would allow me to get away from the business aspects of it and back into more programming.  

Here is what I have learned, you can't do a free project because people will assume it is worthless without even looking and you can't create a good project because people will assume it is a scam.  At this time I am asking, why am I even doing it?


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## DonTadow

JimAde said:
			
		

> Ah.  I get it.  So Vascant posted in his own forums saying, "Hey the products not getting a lot of reviews." and people responded.  Seems reasonable.  That certainly explains the spike in reviews.



Nah, he didn't say that.  The day the product was released Vascant posted the message letting forum users know the program was now available at enworld. 

The reason why so many people posted on the same day (the day of its release on Enworld), is because the product has been out for several months and has gathered a large userbase of happy clients.  

I've never posted a review before.  Part of it is my own cockiness.  I get paid anywhere between 500 to 2000 dollars an article for newspapers and magazines.  When I write something I want to make sure its thorough and honest.  I've liked a lot of products (Egyptian Hamunaptra, Tabletop adventures pdfs, Buy the Numbers, EOM ect), but have rarely been pleased by a product as much as npc designer.  Its the only e;ectronic  product i'd say that can be helpful to anyone who games.  

I also have a personal appreciation for Vascant.  This started out as a sideproject for him.  I know with my side projects i either don't finish them or do them only for myself.  So when he started taking this commercial at the fans request I thought it was pretty admirable.  Then he started answering personal requests from other users such as making it compatable with dmgenie, which in itself all i wanted, a statblock that could translate to my campaign management program.  Then he only charged 15 bucks for the stuff, when just about everyone agreed that the program is at least worth 30 dollars with all the ad ons.  

I read the other two reviews and wanted to do a more professional piece that could be honest and detail the positives about the program. I almost feel bad that I havn't done more with the other programs I like.


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## JimAde

I didn't mean to imply anything.  Vascant, I hope you're not too discouraged.  It is, indeed, a thankless job trying to produce anything for gamers.    On the other hand, you must be pleased with the tenor of the responses you've been getting in the review forum and here.  I have tried NPC Designer and it seems to be a solid piece of work.


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## Mark CMG

Looks like several of those reviews are healthy enough to avoid being asked by Psion to beef them up or risk the axe.  It's difficult to get attention for a new company or product these days and NPC Designer (from RPGAttitude) has managed to turn some heads.  I'll be sure to take a closer look, particularly since Pogre and DonTadow have taken the time to review this generator and endorse it so fervently.  Well Done! 


(rom90125's review seems meaty enough to avoid being deleted, too, but I've just not been aware of rom90125's posts until now.  No offence, of course.  The other three, Gammo, helcat_74, and jhartaine, will probably be asked to edit their reviews and expand on them.)


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## Vascant

I honestly have had quite an enjoyable experience thanks to the many people who have tried NPC Designer.  They are the people who have turned what was released on August 1st to what is available now.  I think what bothers me the most is how I see this from my eyes, If I seen 6 people review like that.. I would go see why before jumping to the opinion there is a scam.  Since I have a Demo available, this is key to showing me really fast I am not dealing with something other then what it is, customers pleased with a product.  I didn't see anyone jump Mr Cook about his review of NPC Designer and if you think those comments on ENWorld say something, read his too.  NPC Designer was the first piece of software that he has commented on in his Line of Sight and no I have not given out a single copy for a review.  DonTadow even put what he thought was the only lacking feature of NPC Designer, and that was added today in update 112 (Thats 112 updates since August 1st).  Thats who I am as a person and how I handle my product line, anyone will tell you this has been done since the start of NPC Designer.

Just think, you have 1% of my customer base with a comment within a day of my email and they are worth more then most reviews because something has to be said about a person who paid for a product and likes/dislikes it.  There are too many reviewers who do it just for the free products.  If you wish to prove the current reviews incorrect, by all means do it.  The only thing you will do is help me create better software.

Personally, I have achieved my goal because NPC Designer is everything I hoped it to be and to that I think a lot of people.


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## Mark CMG

Vascant said:
			
		

> I honestly have had quite an enjoyable experience thanks to the many people who have tried NPC Designer.  They are the people who have turned what was released on August 1st to what is available now.  I think what bothers me the most is how I see this from my eyes, If I seen 6 people review like that.. I would go see why before jumping to the opinion there is a scam.  Since I have a Demo available, this is key to showing me really fast I am not dealing with something other then what it is, customers pleased with a product.  I didn't see anyone jump Mr Cook about his review of NPC Designer and if you think those comments on ENWorld say something, read his too.  NPC Designer was the first piece of software that he has commented on in his Line of Sight and no I have not given out a single copy for a review.  DonTadow even put what he thought was the only lacking feature of NPC Designer, and that was added today in update 112 (Thats 112 updates since August 1st).  Thats who I am as a person and how I handle my product line, anyone will tell you this has been done since the start of NPC Designer.
> 
> Just think, you have 1% of my customer base with a comment within a day of my email and they are worth more then most reviews because something has to be said about a person who paid for a product and likes/dislikes it.  There are too many reviewers who do it just for the free products.  If you wish to prove the current reviews incorrect, by all means do it.  The only thing you will do is help me create better software.
> 
> Personally, I have achieved my goal because NPC Designer is everything I hoped it to be and to that I think a lot of people.





Did my post offend you in some way?


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## Vascant

Oh no, in fact I had not read your post until after I posted mine.  I traded all my posting and people skills for coding a while back.. *chuckles*

I like the reviews just for a different reason, I have taken a while to understand my users and if certain people post 2 lines, thats a lot for them.  Sometimes the smaller reviews att merit to the larger and more indepth.  The last thing anyone should expect from me, is normal.  

In all honesty, having a good day and if this thread had some else's name in it I would avoid it like the plague but it doesn't so I have to defend what I have worked a year and half to achieve.


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## Mark CMG

Don't sweat it.  Some of the reviews _are_ a little thin and will probably have to be fixed or removed.  Happens often enough so no big deal.  There aren't any misconceptions or complaints about the actual product here so don't feel defensive.  Just enjoy the added attention this brings to your hardwork (and have yourself a Happy Holiday!)


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## Psion

Thanks, DonTadow, Rom, and Porge for the reviews.

The rest be advised... well, Mark gave you the idea.


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## Vascant

Psion said:
			
		

> Thanks, DonTadow, Rom, and Porge for the reviews.
> 
> The rest be advised... well, Mark gave you the idea.




I hope you are doing more then advising from here, a thread that I do not think any of them have even posted in.


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## Psion

Vascant said:
			
		

> I hope you are doing more then advising from here, a thread that I do not think any of them have even posted in.




I know some of them are posters here.

Alas, probably not the ones that need advised.

At any rate, ignorance is not excuse for the law.


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## DonTadow

I know they meant their best, but I feel like if you're going to open up your mouth about a product you enjoyed, say as much about it as you can good and bad. I highschool teacher used to tell me to never waste a word.  If you dont get a point across when you speak, why are you opening your mouth. 

In their defense,  It seems the shorter reviews are reminicent of the ones you find at rpgnow, which is acceptabile for their rules policy, however, they certainly don't fit the enworld format.


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## Vascant

Will it remove the reviews if I remove the product?


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## Mark CMG

Vascant said:
			
		

> Will it remove the reviews if I remove the product?




Leave it to Psion to deal with.  He's got it in hand and you should just leave it at that.  It isn't hurting anything and it happens often enough that there is a system in place.


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## rom90125

I guess I need to find out what merits an acceptable review from the ENWorlders...My review was not meant to be a rehash of the more verbose reviews given by DonTadow and Porge but a snapshot of why I feel NPC Designer is superior to other npc generators I've used.  If anyone feels that my review in anyway was bought and paid for by RPGAttitude because a post Vascant made at his site, then I wish to explicitly state that this was not the case.  For those that have the ability to search these forums, please take a look at my other posts regarding NPC Designer and the work Vascant has done.  I've been an advocate of this product for some time now, and I've stated as much in the few posts I've made.  As you can see, my post count is relatively low (and even lower on RPGAttitudes boards) but, that is because I don't drop frivolous posts very often and I generally will only post if I feel I have something to add to the dialogue.  This was the approach I took when I decided to post a review of NPC Designer...I had read the previous reviews and felt it would be a disservice to everyone if I rehashed what was already said.

Edit:  cleaned up my p!ss poor spelling...


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## lior_shapira

Vascant, if you were referring to my original post as suggesting to a scam, then that's a little paranoid. All I said, is that its a little weird seeing six reviews at the same time, especially when some of them aren't really reviews, as others have pointed out. I personally, in the 3(more or less) years I've been visiting ENWorld, never saw so many reviews posted for one product in such a short time.

I actually did download the demo of your product and play with it a little after I posted, although my opinion on it isn't relevant at all to the discussion.

lior s.


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## Psion

rom90125 said:
			
		

> I guess I need to find out what merits an acceptable review from the ENWorlders...My review was not meant to be a rehash of the more verbose reviews given by DonTadow and Porge but a snapshot of why I feel NPC Designer is superior to other npc generators I've used.




Your review was fine; I wouldn't sweat it.

Crothian or I have posted a response in each of the reviews that we are concerned about.


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## rom90125

Psion,  Thanks for the update.


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## Vascant

lior_shapira said:
			
		

> Vascant, if you were referring to my original post as suggesting to a scam, then that's a little paranoid. All I said, is that its a little weird seeing six reviews at the same time, especially when some of them aren't really reviews, as others have pointed out. I personally, in the 3(more or less) years I've been visiting ENWorld, never saw so many reviews posted for one product in such a short time.




This post came on the heels of two other threads in the Publisher's forum.  Am I am paranoid, no.. but I do know people post things without thought to the damage.  If you really had a concern, just go to Meta because if I was "up to something" it would be very easy to tell but to post in a general forum, just tacky and drama.  ENWorld also has ENGS for the first time in three years.

You never know, maybe the next time someone does something a little different people might be a bit more open minded.  Yesterday just showed me something I didn't like, by the end of the day I spent 5 hours dealing with drama when I could have been using those hours creating something better for the people that posted reviews or in threads.  so the question to me, or for me, is do I quit selling so I can focus my time on coding and creating something better for the people who do enjoy and get use out of NPC Designer?  I have a great customer base and they deserve better


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## Patryn of Elvenshae

lior_shapira said:
			
		

> Vascant, if you were referring to my original post as suggesting to a scam, then that's a little paranoid.




I don't think so.

That's what I thought you were implying.


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## TheLe

Wow! *NINE* five-star reviews on Enworld within 24 hours!

~Le


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## Jim Hague

Wow, snarky much?  Perhaps it's actually that good of a product with vocal supporters.


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## TheLe

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Wow, snarky much?  Perhaps it's actually that good of a product with vocal supporters.




Nope. I have no problems at all. I know for a fact that it _is_ a good product, and I don't doubt at all that each of those reviewers honestly believe what they wrote.

And if the system allows for short reviews, then far be it from I to complain. 

NPC Designer is indeed a great product (I have used it myself).  But you have to admit, 9 reviews in the same day, with most being a paragraph long is a bit odd to see on the front page.

~Le


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## DonTadow

Blame RPGNOW and Enworld . 

RPGNOW is/was the most popular online rpg seller and established the current format for reviews of rpg products you by online which are usually 1 to 3 short paragraphs.  This works fine on enworld but...

Enworld has had a critieria of long professional reviews for rpg products for sometime.  The problem comes in that there is no seperation from enworld's professional reviews and enworld's product reviews.  I believe that for a product review from an ordinary joe, the shorter reviews are right in ine with what you'd find from amazon or buy.com.  

I wonder is there a way to sepearte the two types of reviews.


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## barrowwight

Well the reviews and downloading the demo worked on me. I just purchased the Gold version from RPG attitude. Now I just have to wait for the key to arrive in my email, which i figure may take awhile being the holidays. I do look forward to using the full program.


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## Crothian

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Enworld has had a critieria of long professional reviews for rpg products for sometime.  The problem comes in that there is no seperation from enworld's professional reviews and enworld's product reviews.  I believe that for a product review from an ordinary joe, the shorter reviews are right in ine with what you'd find from amazon or buy.com.
> 
> I wonder is there a way to sepearte the two types of reviews.




The review section is for reviews.  Comments, which are what many other places lime amazon pass as reviews are for the message boards.


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## Psion

TheLe said:
			
		

> In fact, just an hour ago I requested my own customers to write reviews of my products on Enworld, and told them that you only need 1-paragraph per review. (no, I am not being sarcastic)




One paragraph is usually too short, unless the paragraph says alot, or the product is rather short. Three is the point that won't immediately set off alarm bells.



> And if the system allows for short reviews, then far be it from I to complain.




The system may. The policy and moderation does not.

We had courted the idea of "minimum lengths" enforced by the system. At the time I thought it not worth the effort. But if people encouraging short reviews causes too much of a work load on the review moderators, we may have to request such a feature be put in place.

A long time ago, Morrus casually put out a 300 word minimum, though I have heard people pull for a 500 word minimum.


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## Psion

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Enworld has had a critieria of long professional reviews for rpg products for sometime.




See, here's the problem. Whenver this issue comes up, people look at the staff reviewers as an example and take it as a given _THAT'S WHAT WE REQUIRE_.

Really, it's not. The foundation of this policy was that Morrus laid out the policy long ago that he wanted a review, not short comments that really didn't tell you anything more meaningful that you liked or didn't like the product. That is not the same as saying every product deserves a 3-5 page expose.

It's not black and white, folks.


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## catsclaw227

barrowwight said:
			
		

> Well the reviews and downloading the demo worked on me. I just purchased the Gold version from RPG attitude. Now I just have to wait for the key to arrive in my email, which i figure may take awhile being the holidays. I do look forward to using the full program.





Me too.  I bought the Gold package a couple of days ago.  It's really VERY helpful.  I need to look into the export to DM Genie stat-block thing, though.  That would send it over the EDGE for me.  I use DM Genie in depth and having that capability is a sure fire way to keep me a user!


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## Odhanan

Just got NPC Designer from ENWorld. This product *rocks*. And David Jones (the guy behind the software) is a great help. 

Man, the time I'm going to save to generate NPCs now... !


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## DonTadow

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> Me too.  I bought the Gold package a couple of days ago.  It's really VERY helpful.  I need to look into the export to DM Genie stat-block thing, though.  That would send it over the EDGE for me.  I use DM Genie in depth and having that capability is a sure fire way to keep me a user!



I've been using it for dmgenie for a few months and it works great.  Everything ports over and sincs really nicely.  Its real easy too.  Select DM genie and the program automatically configures npc geneartor for a dmgenie export.  

By the way thanks Vascant for putting in that new feature.


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## MonsterMash

I'll say that it was striking that so many reviews have come up at once and all are that positive to be 5 stars. As I said in my original post I find it easier to use reviews from posters who've either got a lot of posts or reviews in already as I know what they think about things and even if they like their game to be very different than mine at least I know that from their posts and other reviews.

These very short reviews as the only post that has been made by a user doesn't have the background or information that I find useful in a review and I don't have any kind of handle on that reviewers approach to the game. I hope that these guys will review more of the stuff that they have used as well as we can always use more reviews.

I do like to see a decent length of review, but don't necessarily expect them to be as thorough as a staff reviewers (especially say John Cooper on rules).


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## rom90125

Edit:  naw, don't do that...


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## Vascant

MonsterMash:

  I personally do not use reviews and in fact never read them for one main reason, I think I am educated and mature enough to form my own opinion for my own needs and desires.  This does not mean I am saying reviews are worthless, just regarding myself.  When this all started I did not expect what the results were, I am very critical of myself so the idea all would be 5 stars never crossed my mind.  Even in the small reviews though I learned something about myself and how I have delt with the users of NPC Designer since June when it was initially released as a beta.  I have been approached in the past by reviewers and the first thing to be said is this, "Give me a free copy", it becomes crystal clear what the motive is.  
  NPC Designer has a full life cycle plan which ends on Feb 1st, at which time I need to make the same decision I made on Aug 1st, What direction?  Before all this started, I was seriously thinking about stop selling it and focus on the users I do have and continue to update and improve NPC Designer for them.  After this last few days, this plan is looking very good because I owe those that took a few minutes to leave a review the same loyalty as they have shown me, that's success.  RPGAttitude is about being different then most in the industry, I have yet to miss a release date and run a very aggressive release schudule (115 Updates since Aug 1st, 116 will be today) and while I have achieved all my goals there are things I want to attempt to do with regard to NPC Generation.

So please don't mind the users of NPC Designer, their low count in posts only means they do not run around posting NPC Designer everywhere and have taken a moment to review their thoughts and opinion of a product they are happy with as a paying customer.


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## Psion

Vascant said:
			
		

> I personally do not use reviews and in fact never read them for one main reason, I think I am educated and mature enough to form my own opinion for my own needs and desires.




AFAIAC, reviews are not useful because those who don't get use out of them are not educated. Reviews are useful because those who use them are not clairvoyant.


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## DonTadow

I think there are different reviews for different people and different situations.  I use movie reviews, especially now days, to decide on if i want to see a movie, rent it or avoid it all together.  In the days where corporations and businesses have reduced returning products and such, it can be very helpful.

With online stuff I always go to the reviews.  If its a product I'm iffy on (50/50) a short (hey i liked it review) is pretty good if there are 2 or 3.  IF I'm really not convincned or its over 25 or 50 bucks then i'll scour enworld or rpg.net for a more thorough review of the product.  

I'd even go as far as to say that reviews are a way of educating yourself on the product.  The only thing you'll learn from a company is what the marketing people want you to learn, a non biased review eliminates the sell and gets to the meet, even if its a "cool product dude". 

If I was buying npcdesigner even the short reviews (because there are so many) would be sufficient enough for me to buy the product.


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## Vascant

Psion said:
			
		

> AFAIAC, reviews are not useful because those who don't get use out of them are not educated. Reviews are useful because those who use them are not clairvoyant.




Well since I know for a fact there are those that do create different names and such so they can leave a review of their own product, kind of destroys the merit of the review system.  There are those that review just for the free products.  How do you tell the difference between either or a review based on the merit of the product?  It is impossible.  So I have came up with my own system and I use that to decide what I purchase and what I do not.  So if because I am not a fool means I am not educated in your opinion, I am okay with that.

It isn't a matter of being clairvoyant, like I said just a matter of educating yourself to the authors and different publishers, finding from each that create products of your/mine interest and flavor.


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## Psion

Vascant said:
			
		

> Well since I know for a fact there are those that do create different names and such so they can leave a review of their own product, kind of destroys the merit of the review system.




If you care to inform me of these with sufficient evidence, I will make sure they are taken care of.

But again, I am not clairvoyant either.



> There are those that review just for the free products.  How do you tell the difference between either or a review based on the merit of the product?




We are in disagreement over the notion that reviewing complimentary product necessarily invalidates the review.



> It isn't a matter of being clairvoyant, like I said just a matter of educating yourself to the authors and different publishers, finding from each that create products of your/mine interest and flavor.




How does one become educated about a product without getting input about the content of the product, short of owning or otherwise having unfettered access to the content? The entire point of the standards that seem to be causing you such frustration, is to make sure that the reviews are informative. 

If you own the product, then the review is largely not for you. You can form your own opinion; I don't see how the existence of reviews suggests otherwise.

That said, if you consider the review system so without value, why did you ask your users to post reviews (presuming it was you)?


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## Crothian

Vascant said:
			
		

> Well since I know for a fact there are those that do create different names and such so they can leave a review of their own product, kind of destroys the merit of the review system.  There are those that review just for the free products.  How do you tell the difference between either or a review based on the merit of the product?




Reviews are all based on the merit of the product, those that are not get deleted.


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## Vascant

Why don't we just agree not to agree at this point, I even answered the last "why" above or in another thread at this point I am very unsure and the drama of all this has left a pretty bitter taste.  

  I have removed NPC Designer from being for sale here and this will end the matter all together for me.  Have a nice holiday.


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## Michael Morris

Not taking a side here, but just noting that this whole discussion should be in meta so that I can keep track of it since it does have some pertinent ideas I think could be put in the reviews system such as the "was this review helpful" button.

So since this belongs in meta, off it goes -- swish --


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## rom90125

Vascant said:
			
		

> Why don't we just agree not to agree at this point, I even answered the last "why" above or in another thread at this point I am very unsure and the drama of all this has left a pretty bitter taste.
> 
> I have removed NPC Designer from being for sale here and this will end the matter all together for me.  Have a nice holiday.




Vas, as I have already purchased NPC Designer, this does not directly affect me, but I still feel the need to speak out.  

Removing NPC Designer from the ENWorld Store because of some knee-jerk reactions from members of the staff and a select few posters is a sad event.

One suggestion for the review system...if the staff wishes to delete reviews that don't meet their standards, I would recommend that ALL reviews are critiqued by the review board BEFORE being allowed to post to the forum.   This little step would have saved a bunch of silly drama.


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## Michael Morris

That is definitely on my list of things to encode.


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## DonTadow

Vascant said:
			
		

> Why don't we just agree not to agree at this point, I even answered the last "why" above or in another thread at this point I am very unsure and the drama of all this has left a pretty bitter taste.
> 
> I have removed NPC Designer from being for sale here and this will end the matter all together for me.  Have a nice holiday.



I don't think its worth hurting thesells of your products over.  Different strokes for different folks I say.  Enworlds a big grouping of d and d nuts and this is the place to be if you're selling wares.  

THink about it like this Vascant, you just went the D and D version of going public.  That's a good thing.  Sure people will talk about your stock, (in this case whether there's inflated buzz to drive up the stock price) and some people will praise the stock's performance (good reviews).  From a marketing standpoint look at it like this, you're getting BUZZ.  So long as you're not jumping on chairs you'll be fine .  Try to stay away from arguments with gamers on here as that does make the product and company look bad.  If I were you I wouldnt even comment.  Let people comment about how great your product is and speculate while you rake in the doe.  

I say keep the product on here, try to get it on drivethrunow and rpgnow next, get big, make people happy and upset and (i know its never been about the money with you) but get your product into every d and d home in this country, I think that this is possible.  I havn't met one DM young or old, new or expert, whom havnt thought of the usefulness of theproduct. 

But taking it off enworld is a step backwards.  If someone thinks bad about your product oh well.  Don't take your ball and go home, kick it over their fense and break a window.


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## rom90125

DonTadow said:
			
		

> But taking it off enworld is a step backwards.  If someone thinks bad about your product oh well.  Don't take your ball and go home, kick it over their fense and break a window.




exactly...


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## DaveStebbins

Vascant said:
			
		

> I have removed NPC Designer from being for sale here and this will end the matter all together for me.  Have a nice holiday.



I'll admit that I've mostly just skimmed this thread and I hadn't developed an opinion one way or the other, however this sort of Drama Queen action always tempts me to say "Don't let the door hit ya..."

-Dave


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## Michael Morris

Ok folks, play nice.


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## RedShirtNo5

DonTadow said:
			
		

> But taking it off enworld is a step backwards. If someone thinks bad about your product oh well. Don't take your ball and go home, kick it over their fense and break a window.



Yep.

The best commentary I've read is Monte Cook on Game Industry Etiquette.  Attempting to defend the quality of a product is futile.  Instead you should focus on correcting factual errors.  Attempting to defend your intent or motives is probably even more futile.


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## Mark CMG

There is no drama.  It's never been about the quality of the product.  Some of the reviews simply don't meet the minimum standard that Psion allows in the reviews database, mostly because of their length.  Making it about anything more than that is a waste of time but doesn't actually create any drama.  I don't know why anyone thinks there is any drama attached to this situation.


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## DaveStebbins

Right. A couple of people pointed out that it seemed odd that so many reviews appeared all at once, several by members who have posted very few times, but that was easily explained by the notice that was sent out to the people who purchased the product. I think the "that's odd" posts were interpreted as an accusation where such may not have been intended, and the "drama" ensued.

-Dave


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## trancejeremy

Yeah.  It's not asking for reviews that is the problem, it's the quality of the reviews received.

I mean, look, anyone can write 1-2 lines giving their opinon of their product. But that's not a review. 

Maybe there should be a separate "Comments" section for each product? Like have each product have a message thread attached? So people could make short comments, but they would be separate from actual reviews.


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## Mark CMG

If it becomes impossible to contact those people whose reviews don't make the cut, maybe there is a way to attach them to another review (much like the way you can combine threads in other forums).  It would be a shame to simply have to delete the comments just because they don't meet the minimum standard for a review and the poster can't or won't bring it up to those standards.


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## DaveStebbins

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> It would be a shame to simply have to delete the comments just because they don't meet the minimum standard for a review and the poster can't or won't bring it up to those standards.



Why do you say this? If a post doesn't meet the established standards for the boards, it can edited or deleted and this is an accepted practice. The reviews section has its own additional established standards because the reviews serve an additional purpose beyond the general conversation and opinion of the other forums. If a 'review' does not meet those standards, and is thus of dubious value as a review, why should it not be edited out?

-Dave


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## Mark CMG

I think it is possible that some of those who posted reviews were actually thinking more along the lines of posting comments, which would have been fine if they had done so and attached it to another review that had already been posted.  In fact, it might be a good idea to suggest that as an option to people in addition to the other two options of expanding on their review or having it deleted.  I'm thinking it may just not be clear to some people that the option of simply commenting on another person's review (rather than posting their own review) is necessarily obvious.


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## DonTadow

DaveStebbins said:
			
		

> Why do you say this? If a post doesn't meet the established standards for the boards, it can edited or deleted and this is an accepted practice. The reviews section has its own additional established standards because the reviews serve an additional purpose beyond the general conversation and opinion of the other forums. If a 'review' does not meet those standards, and is thus of dubious value as a review, why should it not be edited out?
> 
> -Dave



Yeah but these review guidelines were made before enworld started selling products.  Not too many people right long reviews when their commenting on products.  There needs to be a separte product comment section attached to every product as opposed to long reviews.  For some people comments are enough to make a decision for some they want reviews.


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## Mark CMG

You don't feel that comments attached to a review with the same number of stars you would give a product are enough?  I know that people can already, by way of the ENGS (store) interface, assign a number of stars to a given product if they own it.  The reviews section allows for reviewers to write a review even if they have not purchased it through the EN World GameStore.   I don't think you can give a star rating through the store interface unless you have actually made a purchase.  I am also not sure if you can leave a comment in addition to a star rating.  Anyway, that's about as much as I know about how the various systems work.  There may be some pluses and minuses to each but at least there are many options.


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## trancejeremy

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Yeah but these review guidelines were made before enworld started selling products.  Not too many people right long reviews when their commenting on products.  There needs to be a separte product comment section attached to every product as opposed to long reviews.  For some people comments are enough to make a decision for some they want reviews.




Maybe products in the ENGS should have a comments page, then? Like RPGNow and etc?
Maybe also a rating page? Like people who bought it from ENGS could give it a rating...

I mean, yeah, it's true many people don't write long reviews for a products. But that works as a filter, generally. If they don't like a product enough (or hate it) to write a long review, how can we really value their opinion?


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## Steverooo

Vascant said:
			
		

> Why don't we just agree not to agree at this point, I even answered the last "why" above or in another thread at this point I am very unsure and the drama of all this has left a pretty bitter taste.
> 
> I have removed NPC Designer from being for sale here and this will end the matter all together for me.  Have a nice holiday.




Well, that sucks...  I doubt that you will ever read this, Vascant, but I have never seen your product, and I guess, now, that I never will.  That's a pity...

Working hard on something, and then never having the intended audience see it, is a shame.  It's a shame twice over.  It's a shame that the folks who might want your product won't be able to get it, and it's a shame that you worked so hard for such a small audience...

As for "Why" the sudden appearance of five or six-plus five-star reviews, all on the same day might appear odd, there was a guy, here, a short while back, who had authored a book...  He posted a "review" to ENWorld, and didn't bother to mention that he was the author.  He had exactly ONE POST, here, and had been doing the same thing on a lot of other boards...  Checking with Google, etc., one poster discovered that his year and date of birth, as well as his home town, were the same as the book's author's.  Posts about this in the Meta forum soon revealed that the "reviewer" was, indeed, the author!

Now knowing all of that (if you ever read this), perhaps you will understand the "paranoia".  Obviously, the system IS subject to abuse, and HAS BEEN abused...  Now, in that light, can you understand the "drama", even if you still don't agree with it?

Well, I'm pro'ly just talking to the walls, here, anyway...  I wishya hadn't taken yer product off the ENWGS, but, oh well...


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## the_sandman

I left one of the reviews on this site. I like to keep things short and simple. The product rocks. Period. The creator of this product rocks. Period.

Any of you have a problem with that? Is my post count too low, so my opinion doesn't count?

I am sorry, I do not subscribe to the theory of driving up my posts with responses such as "agreed" or "Ditto" or garbage like that. Does that invalidate my opinion? If Enworld wants to continue to have me as a customer, I hope the answer is no.

Look, if there are x amounts of 5 star ratings for the product, chances are it is going to be good. If there is any doubt, instead of rattling your bone boxes about some conspiracy, download and try the demo.

I know Vascant is feeling frustrated from all of this, and by rights, he should not be. This is a guy who in the last 8 months managed to accomplish something that the "bigger" companies like Fluid (Remember the original Etools?) couldn't. His product actually works, and is being improved daily.

Finally, I cannot believe the moderators of this joint did not step in to lock this thread. If Vascant decides not to sell the product here, then it is Enworld that loses out eventually.

So be it. I at least have this wicked product... do you?

Sandeman


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## Zenodotus of Ephesus

the_sandman said:
			
		

> I left one of the reviews on this site. I like to keep things short and simple.





You'll want to look over the reviews FAQ so you'll understand why that doesn't work here.

http://www.enworld.org/faq.php?faq=reviews_faq

I don't understand why you want to damage the reputation of such a fine product and Vascant by ignoring the reviews policy.


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## DonTadow

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Maybe products in the ENGS should have a comments page, then? Like RPGNow and etc?
> Maybe also a rating page? Like people who bought it from ENGS could give it a rating...
> 
> I mean, yeah, it's true many people don't write long reviews for a products. But that works as a filter, generally. If they don't like a product enough (or hate it) to write a long review, how can we really value their opinion?



But what youre doing is expecting the average joe to be talented at expressing his thoughts on paper.  You also expect him to donate the time.  If I'm estactic about a product, as i am with npc designer, id on't mind it, but i've left plenty of short, consise paragraph reviews at rpgnow.  The longer you require someone to write a comment for a product, the less amount of comments you shoudl expect to receive.  

I know a lot of people, like myself, make buying decisions purely on popularity.  I'm more inclinedto buy a product if it has a high rating and people were kind enough to leave a small blurb about how much they liked it.  
First sentence = I liked it because.
Second sentence= i didnt like
third sentense= i recommend this.


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## Twin Rose

the_sandman said:
			
		

> If Enworld wants to continue to have me as a customer, I hope the answer is no.




Please recognize that while the EN World GameStore uses portions of the reviews on our product displays, and they link back and forth, EN World and the EN World GameStore are seperate entitities entirely.

I, as the co-owner of the ENGS, have absolutely no control over review policy, I don't set it, but I have tried to facilititate it.  We've discussed adding a "Comment" section, to prevent the short reviews - ie, a review speaks of the product and what's good SPECIFICALLy about it... While simply saying that it's good is the matter for an endorsment.  But, I am in no way tied to the reviews, or the policy and moderation thereof.


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## Crothian

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I know a lot of people, like myself, make buying decisions purely on popularity.  I'm more inclinedto buy a product if it has a high rating and people were kind enough to leave a small blurb about how much they liked it.
> First sentence = I liked it because.
> Second sentence= i didnt like
> third sentense= i recommend this.




That is why we have message boards, they are great and in fact even better then the review site for this sort of thing.


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## Zenodotus of Ephesus

DonTadow said:
			
		

> But what youre doing is expecting the average joe to be talented at expressing his thoughts on paper.  You also expect him to donate the time.





Yup.  More or less -

http://www.enworld.org/faq.php?faq=reviews_faq


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## DonTadow

Crothian said:
			
		

> That is why we have message boards, they are great and in fact even better then the review site for this sort of thing.



If you can connect a message board to every product and customer great, but the link is important.  when i click on a product i want to see the comments.


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## trancejeremy

DonTadow said:
			
		

> But what youre doing is expecting the average joe to be talented at expressing his thoughts on paper.  You also expect him to donate the time.




Not talented. Not being talented didn't keep me from writing 150+ reviews. Just spend the time
to write 3-4 paragraphs at least (which would take an hour at most), saying why that product is so great (or whatever the opinion). Just saying it's great without any facts or reasons doesn't help most people make a decision.  In fact, if anything, it probably turns people off that product.


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## the_sandman

Zenodotus of Ephesus said:
			
		

> You'll want to look over the reviews FAQ so you'll understand why that doesn't work here.
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/faq.php?faq=reviews_faq
> 
> I don't understand why you want to damage the reputation of such a fine product and Vascant by ignoring the reviews policy.




I checked you FAQ, and noted that the thread stated there were GUIDELINES to reviews. Not rules, GUIDELINES.

Did I damage the reputation of the product? Hardly. Did I give a bad review? Perhaps in your opinion. Again, I like to keep things short and simple. If the people who frequent these boards happen to dislike my review, so be it. 

The long and short of things is I am happy with the product/support. I reflected that in my review. Some posters here took exception to that, and rest assured, it will be the last time I purchase a product here or post a review. 'Nuff said.

Sandeman

BTW I love this elitist crap.


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## DonTadow

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Not talented. Not being talented didn't keep me from writing 150+ reviews. Just spend the time
> to write 3-4 paragraphs at least (which would take an hour at most), saying why that product is so great (or whatever the opinion). Just saying it's great without any facts or reasons doesn't help most people make a decision.  In fact, if anything, it probably turns people off that product.



By doing this, you're saying that enworld store should have a harder and more critical commenting standard than 99 percent of the web stores out here including Amazon and Buy not to mention staples such as RPG Now and Drivethru.com.  The longer you force customers to make a comment the less likely they'll do it.  You're also discounting the people whom, as I said, by solely on popularlity and hearing a good word or two.  A lot of the time, especially with books and software online, a person just wants to make sure the product does what it says.  

 What is wrong with one paragraph, 3 sentences, that state exactly what they liked, didnt like and that they did or didnt recommend it.  Thats the difference between a comment and areview.    

This argument actually reminds of me of the role play vs. roll play argument.  Not everyones going to be a thespian actor at your campaign.  Not everyone's going to be great at forming sentences.  Why hinder some people from commenting because they are not great with the written word.


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## IronWolf

the_sandman said:
			
		

> I checked you FAQ, and noted that the thread stated there were GUIDELINES to reviews. Not rules, GUIDELINES.




HHmmmmm, let's check the definition of guidelines out...



			
				Dictionay.com said:
			
		

> guide·line
> 
> A statement or other indication of policy or procedure by which to determine a course of action




Probably a fluke, let's check another.



			
				m-w.com said:
			
		

> Main Entry: guide·line
> Pronunciation: 'gId-"lIn
> Function: noun
> : a line by which one is guided : as a : a cord or rope to aid a passer over a difficult point or to permit retracing a course *b : an indication or outline of policy or conduct*




Looks like guideline suffices as an indication of policy.




			
				the_sandman said:
			
		

> Did I give a bad review?




By the already clearly stated policies of these boards, yes you did.  Or at the very least you failed to meet the minimum criteria for reviews posted to these boards.



			
				the_sandman said:
			
		

> I love this elitist crap.




Elitist?  Rules that are plainly stated get broken, people bring this to the attention of the community and that's elitist?  Let's head back to Dictionary.com again and check something out.



			
				Dictionary.com said:
			
		

> e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism
> n.
> 1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
> 2.
> a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
> b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.




So... you skirt the already established rules of the reviews section of the site and then think it's okay for *you* to post short reviews with little content because you don't need to respect the rules?  Many would say that falls under the "The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class" portion of the definition above.

EDIT: And just to add, I actually think Vascant has made a great product.  The demos I used were very well done and the tool does appear to be very useful for the busy DM.  That doesn't change the fact that people should abide by the review system rules.


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## Vascant

Zenodotus of Ephesus said:
			
		

> I don't understand why you want to damage the reputation of such a fine product and Vascant by ignoring the reviews policy.




Since when did I ignore the policy?  In fact I do not even wonder why Psion removed some of the review, my only statement was be fair about it and inform the reviewer in a method they should be expected to receive it.  Posting in a thread they had not posted in was not a fair method.  

Let me state this though, I do not think nor feel ENGS has anything to do with this nor should it reflect upon it.  One of the goals of ENGS is to provide ENWorld the funds so that it will be able to continue to exist without the need for donations.  I think they are just going thru growing pains and learning their new place and roll in the industry.  It's going to be a long year.

Finally, he cannot damage the reputation of NPC Designer more then what the start of these threads already did.  It is like people only read the initial post and then decide to send me email, if you think I am joking I have received 86 emails concerning it since this started.

Anyways, I have an update to release and some questions to respond to, which is what I enjoy the most.  After all we have the same interest, we both want better software


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## Morrus

OK, I have enough of this ridiculous melodrama.  The reviews policy is clear.  There is no connection between the reviews policy, which has been in place for 5 years, and Vascant's product.

Phrases like "elitist crap" are also not permitted on these boards.  Knock it off.

I don't want to see this topic raised again.  Thread closed.


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