# Enlarge Person and Reach Weapons



## Waite (Nov 22, 2006)

Hi Everyone.  Two quick questions for you all.    I'm trying to figure out reach with a reach weapon (i.e. spiked chain) while under the influence of Enlarge person.  I believe it essentially doubles weapon sizes but I am not sure it does those or just increases 5'

I checked the spell, and all it really says about weapon sizing is that "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell."  Taking that at face value, it implies that weapon size is doubled.  I couldn't find anything in the text of the DMG about it, but p.308, which shows the various reach templates, shows reach for a large sized creature holding a reach weapon to be 20'.  

Also,  can an Enlarged character (12' high) attack over/around medium sized allies?

Thanks so much.


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 22, 2006)

Waite said:
			
		

> I checked the spell, and all it really says about weapon sizing is that "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell."  Taking that at face value, it implies that weapon size is doubled.  I couldn't find anything in the text of the DMG about it, but p.308, which shows the various reach templates, shows reach for a large sized creature holding a reach weapon to be 20'.



 The spell says, "A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a *natural reach of 10 feet*."  Additionally, "Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach..." and "A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away."  Reading the entry on spiked chain, "A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe."

This means that you can use the spiked chain (while Large) at distances of 15ft and 20ft (as normal for reach weapons with a reach of 10ft) and vs. an adjacent foe, which is 5ft.  The strange part is that you technically cannot use it against a foe at 10ft, but most people will (house) rule that you can (attributing it to poor wording, or just a lack of clarification for creatures with reach).



			
				Waite said:
			
		

> Also,  can an Enlarged character (12' high) attack over/around medium sized allies?



 Sure, but the ally may provide soft cover to the opponent, depending on how the DM rules it.


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## frankthedm (Nov 22, 2006)

You've found one of the stronger features of the enlarge spell. Unless the DM uses the cramped conditions out of the DMG2, or simply limits where you can take the now 16' to 20'  polearm, the enlarged combatant with a reach weapon really dominates.







...Since a Huge benefit of reach is that a foe has to threaten you to take an AoO on you. 

With a reach weapon, You can sunder and disarm without worry of AoO if you foe does not have equal reach. Such as the glaive weilder below could do to the samurai

If you are using natural reach, you can trip, unarmed strike, and attempt to start a grapple without drawing an AoO if the foe does not have equal reach. The marilith below could choose to do these to the unfotunate samurai without giving him a chance to take an AoO.






There are no rules granting the foe the chance to strike you  or your weapon as you take advantage of your reach. I would not blame any DM who said the defender could do so, since you are sticking you or your weapon in harm's way.


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## mvincent (Nov 22, 2006)

Waite said:
			
		

> can an Enlarged character (12' high) attack over/around medium sized allies?



Yes, but they would count as low, soft cover. For low cover "_the attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target._"


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## frankthedm (Nov 22, 2006)

mvincent said:
			
		

> Yes, but they would count as low, soft cover. For low cover "_the attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target._"



You are leaving off important parts.

*Low Obstacles and Cover*
A low obstacle  (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target. 

If creatures count as "obstacles" then the Enlarged spear weilder can strike at the medium Long Spear Lance without the wizards granting Lance any cover.


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## epochrpg (Nov 22, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> You've found one of the stronger features of the enlarge spell. Unless the DM uses the cramped conditions out of the DMG2, or simply limits where you can take the now 16' to 20'  polearm, the enlarged combatant with a reach weapon really dominates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hey, i know this is off topic, but what AWESOME program are you using to make these battlegrids?  This would be really cool for running a play by post game!


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## frankthedm (Nov 22, 2006)

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Hey, i know this is off topic, but what AWESOME program are you using to make these battlegrids?  This would be really cool for running a play by post game!



Microsoft Paint with a .gif grid and video game sprites copied and pasted.


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## werk (Nov 22, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Microsoft Paint with a .gif grid and video game sprites copied and pasted.




I never get tired of people asking you that.


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## Notmousse (Nov 22, 2006)

I was gonna say they looked familiar.


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## frankthedm (Nov 22, 2006)

werk said:
			
		

> I never get tired of people asking you that.



Same here. 16 bits is all one really needs. Anything fancier would slurp up bandwith.


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## epochrpg (Nov 22, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Microsoft Paint with a .gif grid and video game sprites copied and pasted.




Where did you get the sprites from?


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## frankthedm (Nov 22, 2006)

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Where did you get the sprites from?



Googling.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 22, 2006)

Just for the record, Expansion- the Psionic version of Enlarge (normally only available to PsyWars)- is capable of 2 increases in size...

IOW, where Enlarge could make a Small Creature into a Medium Creature, Expansion could make it into a Large creature.


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## Mycanid (Nov 23, 2006)

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Hey, i know this is off topic, but what AWESOME program are you using to make these battlegrids?  This would be really cool for running a play by post game!




I thought so too ... excellent job Frank.


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## frankthedm (Nov 23, 2006)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Just for the record, Expansion- the Psionic version of Enlarge (normally only available to PsyWars)- is capable of 2 increases in size...
> 
> IOW, where Enlarge could make a Small Creature into a Medium Creature, Expansion could make it into a Large creature.



Small becoming large is not the problem...

...the problem is when medium becomes huge.



Ack, newer style eats too much mem...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm


Thanks for the compliments..

http://www.odinsrealm.com/tatakau/ has some nice collections
http://videogamesprites.net/ has Final fantasy sprites up the wazoo
http://www.panelmonkey.org/ has great sheets of sprites.
http://a.domaindlx.com/kelvena/ has the Final Fantasy 1 & 2 remake sprites.

Avoid _The video game museum_, if my hunch is correct, that page has some really agro spyware.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 23, 2006)

> Small becoming large is not the problem...
> 
> ...the problem is when medium becomes huge.




Not quite...the REAL problem is when a medium creature _with Powerful Build_ becomes huge!

This is why Half-Giant PsyWars should ALWAYS take a Reach weapon!


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## frankthedm (Nov 23, 2006)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Not quite...the REAL problem is when a medium creature _with Powerful Build_ becomes huge!
> 
> This is why Half-Giant PsyWars should ALWAYS take a Reach weapon!



Damage can hurt, but the battlefield control is what will really matter. His glaive would be 4d8 rather than 3d8. 4.5 more points of damage. The fact his dex has taken a 4 point hit will reduce how many AoO's he can take, but most foes won't give him many AoOs in the first place if they can help it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 23, 2006)

Oh, I know battlefield control...

I usually combo such PCs with armor spikes or IUC...  Get inside my main weapon's reach, and I'll pummel you anyway.

Add to that the DCv1's list of polearm feats that let you do things like add 5' reach or choke up on your grip (so you can hit adjacent foes) or use a polearm (almost) like it was a double weapon, etc., and the big guy will get to use nearly every AoO he gets.

Plus, if I'm allowed to do it, I also opt to take the Heavy Weapons feat from Magic of Faerun, so the reach weapon is made of magically tempered gold or platinum...which further increases the base damage.

And, BTW...I'll occasionally opt for a polearm like the Greatspear.  Exotic? Yes...but with a base damage of 2d6, reach, AND range in the hands of this PC, and it gets ugly.


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## frankthedm (Nov 23, 2006)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> And, BTW...I'll occasionally opt for a polearm like the Greatspear.  Exotic? Yes...but with a base damage of 2d6, reach, AND range in the hands of this PC, and it gets ugly.



Greatspear is a fine weapon, balanced by the standards of the core exotic weapons. Since it does NOT have the Set Vs. Charge option, it is like a 1d10 glaive upped to 2d6. Trading slashing off to get pierceing is usually the short end of the stick since there are more Zombies, Ents and other things with DR Slashing than DR piercing.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 23, 2006)

> Trading slashing off to get pierceing is usually the short end of the stick since there are more Zombies, Ents and other things with DR Slashing than DR piercing.




Which is why, if not my primary weapon, my backup weapon is ALWAYS a bludgeoning weapon.  Flails, Morningstars, and the Maul (essentially the blunt bastard sword) are my faves.

Also, if you use 3rd party stuff, you can find the Bisento in AEG's Rokugan version of OA.  Its 1d12 Martial, not ranged, but you still get the reach.  Quite nice.  I used that one with a Githzerai Monk/PsyWar who was getting to use most of his 7AoOs per round...


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## geosapient (Nov 23, 2006)

Out of curiosity, what would the reach and damage be of the half-giant 2 sizes larger wielding an oversized scythe?

Which chart *is* used when determining the damage of larger weapons?


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## frankthedm (Nov 23, 2006)

geosapient said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, what would the reach and damage be of the half-giant 2 sizes larger wielding an oversized scythe?
> 
> Which chart *is* used when determining the damage of larger weapons?



What is the text on this "oversized" bit. A few things don't stack with powerful build, like Monkey Grip, because they let you use a larger size's weapon, something powerful build already did. 

A medium 2d4 weapon bumped to huge does 3d6. With mighty build a huge critter could wield a gargantuan scythe [4d6]. If somehow the huge creature could wield the collosal scythe, the damage would be 6d6. No reach would be gained unless noted by the power or ability. The creature not recieving any reach from such a immense weapon is as unrealistic and unreasonable as the ability to use such a weapon in the first place.







_Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. _


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## geosapient (Nov 23, 2006)

By oversized I just meant 1 size larger. So as a huge creature he would only threaten a 5' or would it be 15' (medium 5', large 10', huge 15')?

The only point to this really, is for the impressive critical attacks (not very economical but...).


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## frankthedm (Nov 23, 2006)

geosapient said:
			
		

> By oversized I just meant 1 size larger. So as a huge creature he would only threaten a 5' or would it be 15' (medium 5', large 10', huge 15')?



It looks like a huge through expansion power gets gets face 15/' reach 15'. 

_If your new size is Large or larger, you have a space of *at least 10 feet* and a natural reach of *at least 10 feet*.

If you spend 6 additional power points, this power increases your size by two size categories instead of one. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, a -4 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a -2 size penalty on attack rolls, and a -2 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size. 
_


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 23, 2006)

And with the Heavy Weapon feat (for using a magically treated gold or platinum weapon) that 2d4 weapon becomes a 2d6 weapon, to 3d6 with powerful build, and to 6d6 with 2 levels of expansion...


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## Darklone (Nov 23, 2006)

Have you ever had a monk1/druid9 with Animal growth and wildshape into a giant octopus with 8 attacks and reach 40? AND a land speed ?


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## Notmousse (Nov 23, 2006)

But holding your breath's gotta suck.  Imagine if you were hit with con damage right as you're running out of air.  There's be octopus stew for months!


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