# Oracle--what am I missing?



## Is_907 (Aug 11, 2011)

Hey all,
So I tried to run an Oracle tonight (Human, Flame mystery), at a Pathfinder Society event. We had a great time and I loved the RP elements of the class...
But in combat I was absolutely useless.

All the best spells I wanted to use are melee touch based and, well, having a STR mod of 0 and a BAB of 0... I was useless.

Am I playing the class wrong or did I build it wrong? Wrong spell choices?

Help me!


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 11, 2011)

You probably built wrong, and what did you pick for curse and revelation?  Those are hugely important, especially early on.

In general, you're not going to be very good in melee without the Battle mystery, IMO.  Clerics are just better at that, they get a lot more raw power than oracles.

At the very least, don't melee with str 10.  What were your stats?  Was it rolled or point buy?


----------



## Is_907 (Aug 11, 2011)

It's Pathfinder Society so we did 20 point buy...
10, 14, 10, 12, 13, 18 I think.

I was hoping to be the divine spellcaster equivalent of a Sorceror... but there just don't seem to be many ranged spells. Lots of melee touch.

I picked Clouded Vision for my curse and for Revelation I did Touch of Flame and Cinder Dance (Extra Revelation feat.)
Touch of Flame was about the only one that gives you something to cast more than once a day, at least at level 1.

I really wanted him to be a ranged caster... maybe I should pick support spells instead?


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 11, 2011)

Clouded Vision is a really bad idea, IMO.  I'd actually call it the worst curse to pick, in fact (especially if you wanted ranged stuff!).  You need to look at it this way: Which curses are the least inconveniencing or easiest to overcome?  With clouded vision, yeah eventual short range blidsight is great and all... but you can NEVEr ever see beyond 60 ft!  And I know of no spell or effect to help with that.  Can you not see how that could prove to be very very bad for you?  Conversely, spells can give you extrasensory perception if you need it.  Thus, Clouded Vision is a poor choice for curse.

Flame is far from my favorite for mystery choice, but you picked decent revelations, overall (Touch of Flame is super crappy till level 11, though, IMO).  Yes, you don't get good blasting spells as an Oracle, you should probably familiarize yourself with the spell list better.  Ultimate Magic added some decent options, if it is allowed.

You are overlooking one decent ranged "attack" you have -- Intimidate.  It's a class skill with Flame and you have a huge charisma to rock it with.  In PF, you can Intimidate up to 30 ft away.  You can also take Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display feats to be able to turn Intimidate into a 30 ft area of effect as a full round action.  Consider going that route and swapping your extra revelation feat (lose touch of flame) to start on that.  ...Actually, you can't till level 3 due to BAB. 

If you can redo your ability scores, I'd recommend going Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16 before racial (or switch Str and Dex).  If you are able and willing to rebuild it completely, I'd recommend looking at the Battle Mystery.  It has tons of awesome revelations: War Sight, Skill at Arms, Weapon Mastery (allows you to get Weapon Focus at level 1!), and Iron Skin are all amazing, and most of the others aren't bad, either.  I like Haunted curse for the extra spells, but if you just want a non-annoying curse Tongues and Lame are decent picks.

Good 1st level spells (see list here):
Murderous Command ---\
Command  -------------/ pick one, not both
Bless
Burning Disarm (obscure source)


Yeah, 1st level spells are pretty weak.  Some others like Obscuring Mist are actually good, but have no real benefit for CL or high charisma, so they're not worth a precious spell known slot when you can just get scrolls.


----------



## Is_907 (Aug 11, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback. I don't think Clouded Vision is the biggest problem--30 feet is enough for range close spells, anyway...

I think the issue is that I had the class in my head one way and didn't have enough time to learn it well.

If I rebuild the character I'll probably pick support type spells. I already had Command, just didn't get a chance to use it last night heh.

Another issue is probably the fact that in my home games I houserule that "melee touch" is a DEX based attack for spells. I mean, seriously, how is Strength going to help you place your hand on someone? 


Thanks for the feedback. Since this is PFSociety, I'll probably just retire this guy and roll up something similar in background and RP style, but with a class more up my alley.


----------



## DalkonCledwin (Aug 11, 2011)

You can also go the pure defensive route instead of going for an offensive Oracle. In this case you would want to pick the Lore Mystery, probably taking a non-intrusive Curse such as Tongues. With the Lore Mystery, you will want to take the Sidestep Secret Revelation which lets you substitute your Charisma modifier in place of your dexterity modifier on your Armor Class and Reflex Scores. This is really good because it gives you one of the higher Armor Class and Reflex totals at level one. Additionally if you take the Extra Revelation Feat you can take the Lore Keeper Revelation which lets you substitute your Charisma modifier in place of your Intelligence Modifier on all Knowledge Skill checks which is simply awesome for Charisma based characters such as the Oracle.

Personally Lore Mystery is one of my personal favorite mysteries for the Oracle because of its sheer defensive capabilities. Additionally if you take 2 levels of paladin, the Charisma bonus to your Saving Throws I believe stacks with the change to the Reflex save that is granted by Sidestep Secret!


----------



## Dingo333 (Aug 11, 2011)

Oracles tend to be more support, buff/debuff then actual blasters

To this end, a life oracle will slowly edge out a cleric (Channel for channel energy, Energy body for easy self heal/others without a spell, life link: you sit back, heal yourself and the damage others takes is sent to you, spirit boost, extra hp when you "over heal")

For the Flame oracle, you wanna multiclass into a sorcerer probally with either a dragon or fire elemental bloodline, oracle is great for the dip for burning magic, but otherwise not that useful.

As for curses, tounges is the best. You add the languages to your list and it does not stop spell casting (except those language dependant spells). Next best is probally deaf. Yes that is -4 to initative, but that is countered by improved initative and you decrease the penalty to 0 at level 10


----------



## concerro (Aug 11, 2011)

Is_907 said:


> Hey all,
> So I tried to run an Oracle tonight (Human, Flame mystery), at a Pathfinder Society event. We had a great time and I loved the RP elements of the class...
> But in combat I was absolutely useless.
> 
> ...



You have to build the class according to what you want to do. If you want to fight you need to get a higher strength score, as an example.


----------



## Is_907 (Aug 11, 2011)

Thanks for the tips, guys.

I may try to build another Oracle if I retire this one... this PF Society thing is a twice a month gig that a buddy and I are doing to help encourage local RPG awareness. The guy running it is great, and in a normal game might even let me rebuild the character... but we're bound by Paizo's rules here.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the tips. I'm definitely looking into the Lore Revelation. Sounds very interesting.


----------



## Kaisoku (Aug 12, 2011)

Beyond the mechanical problems presented by the curses, Clouded Vision and Deaf are fairly largely impacting on just adjudicating what your character is able to perceive during play.
Annoying at best, and potentially game disrupting otherwise.

Looking at my Life Oracle's spell list, the 1st level spell selection I've got is basically a big list of defensive/utility spells, with one notable exception on Command.

2nd level and higher gets into some nice offense spells (Hold Person, Spear of Purity/Searing Light, Spiritual Weapon/Ally, etc).

One thing to keep in mind is that as a Spontaneous caster, you won't have the option to completely change your spell selection with a single rest. Specialty spells like Remove Curse, Disease, Blindness/Deafness are not worth burning a slot to get, however it can be a huge pain when you have literally no access to it at all.
The game assumptions of a cleric in the group (who can just rest and memorize the spell) can mean APs might be a little tough unless you can get your hands on some scrolls for backup. Not sure how scrolls work in PFS though.
Also, you are typically one level behind the cleric on getting new spell access, so that's another factor even if you are burning spell selection on something important.

Don't get caught in the middle of the dungeon to find out you critically need Remove Paralysis to recover or get stuck on a bit of a roadblock (like I did).


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 12, 2011)

I like Murderou Command better than Command.  It relies on having two or more foes and is only one option, granted.  But it's a GOOD option.  Instead of just wasting the foe's turn, he's wasting his turn and helping you finish the fight faster.

Moreoever, I note that it is verbal only, no somatic or material component.  It would be very, very easy to make that Silent (I'd get a lesser rod rather than the feat) and be able to cast it without anyone realizing you had.  Why would this be good?  Get one enemy to attack his ally with a full attack all of a sudden, and his friend is likely to start trying to fight back.  Before you know it, two foes are killing themselves for you while you sit back and watch from a safe distance.  If you're confident you can get the target to fail his save (Persistent spell is an excellent metamagic feat...), you could even pull this off in a social setting undetected!


----------



## Victim (Aug 13, 2011)

> I was hoping to be the divine spellcaster equivalent of a Sorceror... but there just don't seem to be many ranged spells. Lots of melee touch.




You are - but the emphasis is on the Divine, instead of the sorcerer.  Oracles still use the cleric list with a few added spells.  They'll still do pretty much the same stuff as a cleric, just with spontaneous casting.

Low level clerics generally do some buffs, some healing, some Hold Person, and a fair bit of hitting people with their mace.  Oracles aren't really that different.


----------



## 13Whitey (Aug 23, 2011)

My human oracle, too, is my first one, and I also put Clouded Vision down as my curse. 

With stats of 13 16 13 11 11 16, I built my character into the role of the tank of the team to make the best of the lack of vision range whilst still being able to communicate to my teammates. 

To fulfill this desired role I picked the Heavens mystery and picked up the Coat of Many Stars revelation. Combined with my armor and dodge feat, along with Shield of Faith, I get my Oracle up to 27 AC at max at level 1.


----------



## Shisumo (Aug 23, 2011)

13Whitey said:


> My human oracle, too, is my first one, and I also put Clouded Vision down as my curse.
> 
> With stats of 13 16 13 11 11 16, I built my character into the role of the tank of the team to make the best of the lack of vision range whilst still being able to communicate to my teammates.
> 
> To fulfill this desired role I picked the Heavens mystery and picked up the Coat of Many Stars revelation. Combined with my armor and dodge feat, along with Shield of Faith, I get my Oracle up to 27 AC at max at level 1.



It may interest you to know that this build is illegal.  Coat of Many Stars gives an armor bonus, and so it does not stack with the armor bonus granted by worn armor.  You get one or the other, not both.


----------



## 13Whitey (Aug 23, 2011)

Shisumo said:


> It may interest you to know that this build is illegal.  Coat of Many Stars gives an armor bonus, and so it does not stack with the armor bonus granted by worn armor.  You get one or the other, not both.




I would think that the Advanced Player's Guide would specifically say that the armor bonus doesn't stack. My DM is playing under the assumption that it does 
( not that I've ever had to use the coat yet, as I'm only lvl 2 at the moment), so for now I'll keep things as they are. 

I do tend to be quite stingy with my "once per day" powers, so this shouldn't be much of a problem at all.


----------



## wolff96 (Aug 23, 2011)

13Whitey said:


> I would think that the Advanced Player's Guide would specifically say that the armor bonus doesn't stack. My DM is playing under the assumption that it does ( not that I've ever had to use the coat yet, as I'm only lvl 2 at the moment), so for now I'll keep things as they are.




House rules are house rules, so enjoy.

But Shisumo is correct that they don't stack under the rules as written.  Both your worn armor and the Coat of Many Stars give an _armor_ bonus.  Bonuses with the same name don't stack (except Dodge/unnamed) -- the only way they would stack is if the APG named it as a specific exception.

Regardless, I like the Oracle of the Heavens, just for the ridiculous things they can do with the Pattern spells.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 23, 2011)

"Regardless, I like the Oracle of the Heavens, just for the ridiculous things they can do with the Pattern spells."

Shame they get so few of them.  I'm not sure what they do after level 6 or 7 when color spray ceases to be a multiround win spell for them (it remains a one round win spell, but it does for everyone else as well).

I do wonder if they can treat a creature's HD as negative for things with a capped amount of HD affected total (allowing you to ensnare more creatures or a creature with HD higher than you could've otherwise gotten with your 2d4 or whatever).  As written, it seems you can, and I'm not even sure that's particularly problematic, but you'd think they would have eratta'd it by now.  Oh well.


----------



## Thazar (Aug 24, 2011)

For the Oracle of Heavens the Awesome Display mystery lets Color Spray works on creatures much better as you subtract your CHA modifier from their HD.  So by the time your are level six and have a CHA some where around 20~24 you you can affect things with HD any where  from 1 HD to as much as 12 HD.  You can also get a lot of things in your Hypnotic and Rainbow Pattern spells as well.

We read the rule that the HD can be knocked down to 0 but not to negatives.  This lets you get a lot of things in the area like ogres, giants, classed NPC's etc... but you could not throw 10 rats into the pattern to let you get a 30 HD Dragon or something like that.


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 27, 2011)

*Yay bonus-stacking!*



13Whitey said:


> I would think that the Advanced Player's Guide would specifically say that the armor bonus doesn't stack. My DM is playing under the assumption that it does
> ( not that I've ever had to use the coat yet, as I'm only lvl 2 at the moment), so for now I'll keep things as they are.




As a general rule in 3e systems, same-named bonuses do not stack.  Instead, you use the highest bonus of that same type.  Like, a racial bonus, a skill bonus, and a luck bonus all stack.

Armor bonuses are not ones that stack.  If you're looking for a reference, check PF Core book p. 149, lower right-hand corner.

So, if I have a +1 mithral chain shirt, that's a +5 armor bonus to AC.  If I then get ridiculously lucky and find a pair of Bracers of Armor +8, which give a +8 armor bonus to AC, I don't add +13 to my AC, I add the highest, which is +8.

That doesn't necessarily mean your ability isn't useful, as it can presumably jack up your AC a bit more as needed, but you're not going to get AC 27 at level 1 legally.

Brad


----------



## DumbPaladin (Aug 29, 2011)

Dingo333 said:


> Oracles tend to be more support, buff/debuff then actual blasters




I'd agree with this, because divine spells are always going to lag behind arcane spells in blasting ... but depending on the Oracle mystery you pick, you can be something else entirely.

I'm playing an Oracle of metal, and I just got to 2nd level, gaining my first mystery spell: _lead blades_.  Normally, this is a ranger-only spell; can I just say how great a spell it is for almost every melee class? 

Using a revelation to summon a 2d6 weapon to my hand -- usually an earth breaker cause they're fun, I'm not optimizer -- and enchanting it to deal 3d6+4 total damage has had me outpacing the fighter in damage so far.  In addition, the unusual skillset choice has allowed me to Intimidate people and to assist the party rogue with trap disabling.

Oh, and I still heal people when needed, and buff with _magic weapon_.

Did I mention being able to do all of these things has been incredibly fun?


----------



## DumbPaladin (Aug 29, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> "Regardless, I like the Oracle of the Heavens, just for the ridiculous things they can do with the Pattern spells."
> 
> Shame they get so few of them.  I'm not sure what they do after level 6 or 7 when color spray ceases to be a multiround win spell for them (it remains a one round win spell, but it does for everyone else as well).




The only major one they miss is scintillating pattern, right?  

If it's really that important for the Oracle of the heavens to have, it can be acquired via the Arcane sorcerer bloodline level by going 2 feats into the Eldritch Heritage tree, and eventually adding it at 19th level.  You'll also get to pick any two lower-level sorcerer/wizard spells you fancy and add them to your list ... and going spell shopping for 2 spells that will help plug up any holes in your build or further accentuate something you're focusing on sounds like fun times.


----------



## paradox42 (Aug 29, 2011)

Huh, Oracle of Metal gets the Skill At Arms Revelation too. I never noticed that before. That's a good Mystery choice for tanking too, then; in fact, with _Lead Blades_ it might be even better than Oracle of Battle.


----------



## DumbPaladin (Aug 29, 2011)

paradox42 said:


> Huh, Oracle of Metal gets the Skill At Arms Revelation too. I never noticed that before. That's a good Mystery choice for tanking too, then; in fact, with _Lead Blades_ it might be even better than Oracle of Battle.





Yeah, that's what I felt as well.  Battle's got a couple of nice abilities, like the initiative / no longer surprised at 7th level revelation, and adding Quicken Spell to healing once a day, but Oracle of metal gets lead blades, keen edge, and versatile weapon at 1st, 3rd, and 4th -- all very nice weapon modifications.


----------



## paradox42 (Aug 30, 2011)

DumbPaladin said:


> Yeah, that's what I felt as well. Battle's got a couple of nice abilities, like the initiative / no longer surprised at 7th level revelation, and adding Quicken Spell to healing once a day, but Oracle of metal gets lead blades, keen edge, and versatile weapon at 1st, 3rd, and 4th -- all very nice weapon modifications.



More battle, less healing, yeah. Metal also gets the ability to move at full speed in armor, as long as it's metal (ooo, that's a hard limitation to live with, isn't it?), and they can do repairs quickly too. Very interesting contrast.


----------



## DumbPaladin (Aug 30, 2011)

paradox42 said:


> More battle, less healing, yeah. Metal also gets the ability to move at full speed in armor, as long as it's metal (ooo, that's a hard limitation to live with, isn't it?), and they can do repairs quickly too. Very interesting contrast.





Alas, it's only full movement in up to medium armor, but if you take Skill at Arms (or a level in fighter/cavalier/paladin) and buy mithral full plate, and take the Dance of the Blades revelation ... you're running across the field in full plate armor at a speed of 40, man.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 30, 2011)

An Emissary Cavalier gets the ability to move unhindered in Medium Armor AND a bonus feat (Mounted Combat, iirc) right at level 1...  It's in Ultimate Combat.


----------

