# Use Magic Device -- THE most potent skill?



## Hand of Vecna (Dec 4, 2002)

One of my fellow players has a character (a Rogue with levels in other PrC's) who's maxed out his Bluff and Use Magic Device skills, so he can use nearly any magic item he finds, and bluff others into thinking he's a powerful wizard.  Now, while this ability has saved our bacon on many occassions, it's made me realize that Use Magic Device is THE most powerful skill in the game, especially if you're high level and have a +15 or higher to the skill roll -- you can use any wand or staff, or a CE Rogue/Necromancer could convince a Holy Sword he's a LG Paladin!

Has anyone else had interesting experiences with this skill?


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## Li Shenron (Dec 4, 2002)

Yes, I have always thought that UMD is one of the greatest abilities of Rogues and Bards. But definitely I wouldn't say it's overpowered.

I don't remember now the various DCs, but IIRC they are almost all high enough so that nobody (non-epic at least) can be 100% sure to succeed, plus you can't take 10 in UMD (I don't remember if in the special case of UMD a natural 1 has always bad consequences).
You may be able to use "forbidden" magic items, but probably they won't be working all the time (which will have IMO a very funny consequence in the game). 

For these reasons I don't think it's _too_ powerful: you can use every magic item, but:
1. you still have to buy it 
2. sometimes it doesn't work
3. you're still limited in how many items you can wear/use at a time


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## ruleslawyer (Dec 4, 2002)

Actually, you CAN take 10 with UMD, if you have the Skill Mastery (UMD) rogue ability. 

I don't think UMD is too powerful, but I dislike the ability of this skill to emulate anything beyond class abilities. It mucks with my campaign ideas of good and evil and strong racial tradition to allow emulation of alignment and race, respectively. The skill's still good if you take those two factors out, but it's potentially a bit less absurd.


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## Li Shenron (Dec 4, 2002)

ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> *Actually, you CAN take 10 with UMD, if you have the Skill Mastery (UMD) rogue ability.
> *




I don't think so:

*Skill Mastery*: The rogue selects a number of skills equal to 3 + Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, the rogue _may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent the rogue from doing so_. 

...doesn't really say you can take10 on a skill that you usually can't take10 even when there's no distraction. What if the Rogue chooses Knowledge(Arcana), and has a +10 (rank+Int): it would mean he knows EVERYTHING which has DC 20 or less.

*Use Magic Device*: The character cannot take 10 with this skill. Magic is too unpredictable for the character to use this skill reliably. Retry: Yes, but if the character ever rolls a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and the character fails, then the character can't try to activate it again for a day.

...and this btw prevents you from taking 20 also


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## drnuncheon (Dec 4, 2002)

Hand of Vecna said:
			
		

> *Has anyone else had interesting experiences with this skill? *




My Ftr/Rog is going to be using it on his _true strike_ bow (from S&F).  Not great for the middle of combat, but excellent for setting up those sniping shots.  

It also arguably allows for sneak attacks even in darkness or fog, since it negates the miss chance due to concealment.  Mmmmm.

J


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## Petrosian (Dec 4, 2002)

In our game, the 12th level rogue is second man for most any magic item consideration, particularly wands and staves and scrolls. using his UMD he serves as a backup mage and a backup cleric. If he can, he sneak attacks. if he cannot, he spell chucks from wand or stave. When anyone gets seriously hurt, he swoops in with curing wands.

The ability to switch hit enables them to adjust their party strength to whatever is most appropriate. if melee is good, he runs around sneaking. if magic is needed, for instance dispel magics, he becomes another mage and so on.


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## smetzger (Dec 4, 2002)

I don't think its all that.

As a Rogue I would rather pick up a level of Ranger and/or Bard.  That would allow you to use a great many magic-items and give you some nice special abilities.


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## Shallown (Dec 4, 2002)

I had a Fighter/rogue built around use magic device and scouting ahead. He held his own in a fight becuase of the wands, scrolls he could buff himself with. I bought a Magic item to boost my Use magic device. (Before everyone complains about the low cost of Skill boosters my Gm quadrupeled the price since it was exclusive and also made me be there for the whole enchantment of the item and expend my EP's for the item) But I still wanted it. 

I was basically a back up everything though never in anyway a replacement. I was limited in what I could do but I made sure I was ready for most things.

Had a wand bracer (Was in a dragon mag) with a CLW wand, A 10th sonic ball (fireball energy substituted) and a Dispel magic at 10th level. Which in emergencies let me at least try to deal with common situations.

It helped butt his was also my focus sort of a generalist.  I also bought Spellcraft cross slass to use the dispel wand with. Not that I actually ever made it work since I had so little skill but still it fit the idea.

It is A powerful skill but remember it ius class exclusive and sucks at lower levels when you put in points that basically are not useful at all till about 7-9th I think.


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## AGGEMAM (Dec 4, 2002)

Hand of Vecna said:
			
		

> *... or a CE Rogue/Necromancer could convince a Holy Sword he's a LG Paladin!*




Actually no. You cannot emulate being another class, sorry!


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## Arnix (Dec 4, 2002)

Actually, you can emulate a class.  Emmulate Class Feature PHB p26.  DC 20+required level.  If its something like a holy sword, you would have to emulate class ability DC 21 (20 + 1 level of paladin) and a second check at DC 30 (emulate alignment).

A rogue with a high charisma, maxed UMD, and ranks in spellcraft is very dangerous.

UMD 10 + 4 (charisma) + 2 (spellcraft synergy bonus) = 16
Most DCs are close to 20.  That means a 7th level rogue, with a 4+ can use any wand or misc magic item.  A 12th level rogue can by the same math (UMD 15)  with the same 4+ can now use any scroll of 5th level or lower (assuming read magic ability).

It gets ugly fast.  And one of my players wonders why i refused to give him a +10 UMD skill item...


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## AGGEMAM (Dec 4, 2002)

Arnix said:
			
		

> *Actually, you can emulate a class.  Emmulate Class Feature PHB p26. *




A class and a class feature is not the same, at least they were not last time I checked (which is about two minutes ago).


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## ruleslawyer (Dec 4, 2002)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't think so:
> 
> ...




D'oh!

I misread the "stress and distractions" part of the Skill Mastery ability to be an example of conditions that normally would prevent taking 10, rather than the only conditions that are ignored using Skill Mastery. Good catch.

I'd tend to agree with AGGEMAM, if only because the text of UMD so strongly emphasizes that it can be used to emulate "the spell ability or class features of another class" rather than simply to emulate "another class."


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## Roland Delacroix (Dec 4, 2002)

Yeah its a powerfull skill but I don't see any way a Rogue could impersonate a mage with it.  UMD is, IMO, a rogue or bard trying to circumvent the normal casting process by overloading the magic item.  Your rogue isn't going to look very mage-like when he has to jump up and down in place while wiggling his ears to get a wand to work.  To use scrolls maybe they have to slam the scroll and tube on the recipients head shouting 'GO!'.  Anyone who thinks this is typical arcane magic would have to be a total idiot.


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## Hand of Vecna (Dec 4, 2002)

or the UMDer activating the item has an exceedingly high Bluff score with which to fool any onlookers...

( my fellow player I originally mentioned has something like +23 in both UMD and Bluff, if not more.  But he does have some minor spellcasting ability as well. )


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## Arnix (Dec 4, 2002)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A class and a class feature is not the same, at least they were not last time I checked (which is about two minutes ago). *




A rogue with UMD CAN use a Holy Weapon as a paladin.  They simply have to emulate the ability of a paladin to use a holy weapon.

I don't have time to look up all the minute references at work, but possibly once I get home before my game tonight.


Arnix (tm)


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## Hand of Vecna (Dec 4, 2002)

heh, goes to show I can't throw out a offhandedly-remarked hypothetical situation without a load or folks crashing down on it with them fancy "rules" and such...


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## AGGEMAM (Dec 4, 2002)

Arnix said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A rogue with UMD CAN use a Holy Weapon as a paladin.  They simply have to emulate the ability of a paladin to use a holy weapon.*




Nope!

The difference is emulation a class feature lets you pretend you had that feature, while if it were (it is not however) possible to emulate being a class would mean you got access to these class features, basically every class feature in the game.

To use a holy avenger you actually have to be a paladin.


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## Arnix (Dec 4, 2002)

Do you have a specific reference to this or is this merely conjecture?

Out of curiosity.  I could be wrong.


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## Kyramus (Dec 4, 2002)

analogy for the holy sword/paladin emulator rogue.

We are using windows 2k. It has  dos emulator.  While it does function as dos, it is NOT dos.

For example, I installed an old dos game on windows 2k, even with the emulator, the darn thing won't work. 

now back to rogue.
Rogue emulates the detect evil ability of the paladin, it DOES NOT make him a paladin. Rogue then tries to emulate lay on hands (probably with a hidden wand of cure light wounds). That still doesn't make him a Paladin.
Rogue then fakes turning undead (Undead looks at him funny and the sword probably will bop him over the head for trying too many times.
In the end, he's a Rogue, not a Paladin.
And if you are going to argue the case further. Magic of a holy nature is derived from a deity. I think a deity would know if you are trying to bluff it or not and if you persist, I wouldn't like to see what the deity thinks of as humorous to punish you with.


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## jontherev (Dec 5, 2002)

I got an email reply from the Sage that said Skill Mastery works for all skills, including UMD (I specifically asked about that skill).  It might be in one of those Sage Response Archives threads somewhere.  FWIW.


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## Hand of Vecna (Dec 5, 2002)

Hrrmm... could a Bard or Rogue, using UMD, activate an _Amulet of Undead Turning_ by emulating the Turn Undead class feature of a cleric (DC 20 + "cleric's" level), and so actually turn some undead nasties?

A Rogue's Skill Mastery _can_ work on UMD?  Wowie...


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## Darkness (Dec 5, 2002)

Kyramus said:
			
		

> *Magic of a holy nature is derived from a deity.*



are you implying that Rogues should be unable to use holy (and, by extension, unholy, chaotic, and lawful) weapons, _period_?

Also, paladins' own magic doesn't come from "a" deity:







> *PHB, p. 41:*
> Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity. Devotion to righteousness is enough for most.



So what's your point there?


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## WattsHumphrey (Dec 5, 2002)

Kyramus said:
			
		

> *analogy for the holy sword/paladin emulator rogue.
> 
> We are using windows 2k. It has  dos emulator.  While it does function as dos, it is NOT dos.
> 
> ...




Actually, I've had to deal with this Class vs Class Ability argument and it really is problematic (at least for me).

I have a question, though.  Does UMD allow a rogue to use Druid's Vestments?  The prereq is 'A druid with at least one use of the Wild Shape ability' or some such.  You can emulate the wild shape, but not the being a druid.... but being a druid is the only way to get wild shape... and you are emulating the wild shape ability.. though you don't actually 'have' that one use per day.

If you have a good answer, I'd love to hear the source, so I could clear up this argument that I'm having.  Thanks .


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## Kyramus (Dec 5, 2002)

Darkness said:
			
		

> *are you implying that Rogues should be unable to use holy (and, by extension, unholy, chaotic, and lawful) weapons, period?
> 
> Also, paladins' own magic doesn't come from "a" deity:So what's your point there? *




The original case was a rogue using a holy avenger.  Simply emulating an ability of a class doesn't qualify him to use said sword.

As for magic within a holy avenger would most undoubtedly be a servant of some sort to a deity. The sword might think of himself as a celestial of a sort.


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## Kyramus (Dec 5, 2002)

From the SRD
Holy Avenger

In the hands of any character other than a paladin, this sword performs only as a +2 longsword. In the hands of a paladin, this holy (+1d6 points of bonus holy damage against evil creatures) becomes a +5 longsword, creates a spell resistance of 15 in a 5-foot radius, and casts dispel magic (usable every round as a standard action) in a 5-foot radius at the class level of the paladin. (Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of dispel magic.)

Caster Level: 18th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, holy aura, creator must be good; Market Price: 120,315 gp; Cost to Create: 60,315 gp + 4,800 XP.



The rogue would use it as a +2 sword. He is not a paladin even when he is emulating a paladin class ability.  No matter how he argues it, the question still returns to Are you a paladin?  The answer is no. therefore he can't use it.  Neither bluff nor umd will alow him to use the item other than a +2 weapon.

Same thing for the Druid Vestments.
From the SRD, please note thee bolded section. THAT applies to holy avenger and druid vestments with respect to a rogue trying to bluff his way to use an item.
The rogue is simply asking too much off the target, whether the target is intelligent or not.
Assuming the holy avenger or druid vestments aren't intelligent, the the bolded Italicized section applies.
And since both items are NOT creatures. The Rogue can not use the items as if he were of the appropriate class.

(*)Bluff (CHA)

Check: A Bluff check is opposed by the target's Sense Motive check. Favorable and unfavorable circumstances weigh heavily on the outcome of a bluff. Two circumstances can weigh against the character: The bluff is hard to believe, or the action that the target is to take goes against the target's self-interest, nature, personality, orders, etc. *If it's important, the DM can distinguish between a bluff that fails because the target doesn't believe it and one that fails because it just asks too much of the target. *For instance, if the target gets a +10 bonus because the bluff demands something risky of the target, and the Sense Motive check succeeds by 10 or less, then the target didn't so much see through the bluff as prove reluctant to go along with it. If the target succeeds by 11 or more, he has seen through the bluff (and would have done so even if it had not entailed any demand on him).

A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as the character wishes, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that the character wants him to believe.

*A bluff requires interaction between the character and the target. Creatures unaware of the character cannot be bluffed. *A bluff always takes at least 1 round (and is at least a full-round action) but can take much longer if the character tries something elaborate.


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## Darkness (Dec 5, 2002)

Kyramus said:
			
		

> *As for magic within a holy avenger would most undoubtedly be a servant of some sort to a deity. The sword might think of himself as a celestial of a sort. *



Only that _holy avengers_ are not intelligent by default. 

And why exactly should the magic within a _holy avenger_ "most undoubtedly be a servant of some sort to a deity?"

Judging by the prerequisites to create one, this reasoning certainly isn't supported by the rules (since the only core class that can create one is the cleric, but not all clerics do follow a specific deity; PHB, p. 30).


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## Darkness (Dec 5, 2002)

Kyramus said:
			
		

> *The rogue would use it as a +2 sword. He is not a paladin even when he is emulating a paladin class ability.*



Heh. I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree here. I guess I need to find more evidence...


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## Byrons_Ghost (Dec 5, 2002)

Ok- I've never actually had to adjudicate this skill in the game before (that's because our only rogue was also a wizard and could use most anything anyhow). I've a few questions...

Say the rogue has to emulate two different things, such as both class and alignment. Does she roll for both, or just the higher DC, or what?

Would multiple rolls require multiple actions? Does even rolling the skill in the first place require it's own action, or is it consider part of activating the item?

What kind of considerations are taken into account with magic scrolls? The rogue would definately have to emulate spell ability. Then she'd have to emulate an ability score, right? Is it possible for her to emulate it well enough to avoid mishap chances, or is there always going to be a chance of miscasting?


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## Darkness (Dec 5, 2002)

Byrons_Ghost said:
			
		

> *What kind of considerations are taken into account with magic scrolls? The rogue would definately have to emulate spell ability.*



Yep.







> *Then she'd have to emulate an ability score, right?*



If she doesn't have a high enough score in the ability score already, then yes.







> * Is it possible for her to emulate it well enough to avoid mishap chances, or is there always going to be a chance of miscasting? *



Well, mishap chances depend on caster level, don't they? So I think if you emulate a high enough effective caster level, you wouldn't have a miscasting chance...


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 5, 2002)

I'd just like to add that Use Magic Device is indeed powerful, especially at high levels - and ooo, look, its an exclusive skill for rogues and bards, who are often considered to be weak, especially at high levels.

It is great for keeping single classed Rogues and Bards up with the programme in higher level adventures.


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## Arnix (Dec 5, 2002)

Its also a class skill for Psychic Warriors.

And Use Psionic Device was made a class skill for rogues.


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## MerakSpielman (Dec 5, 2002)

Kyramus said:
			
		

> *
> The rogue would use it as a +2 sword. He is not a paladin even when he is emulating a paladin class ability.  No matter how he argues it, the question still returns to Are you a paladin?   *




Right.

As a rogue with UMD, you can emulate class abilities. For those of you confused about class abilities, look under "classes" in the PHB. You will find all the class abilities there. Nowhere under Paladin does it say, "ability to use Holy Avenger weapons." That is a function/limitation of the _item_, not the class.


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## drnuncheon (Dec 5, 2002)

WattsHumphrey said:
			
		

> * You can emulate the wild shape, but not the being a druid.... but being a druid is the only way to get wild shape*




Some PrCs also give _wild shape_.  By the rules as strictly written, they would not get the benefit of the vestments either.  On the other hand, when the magic item was designed, druids were the only wild shapers around...

Looks like a question for the FAQ to me, but I'd say 'no', because it gives a bonus to an existing ability, and one that the rogue does not have.  (See my answer for the _amulet of undead turning below_)  If it gave a completely new ability, the rogue might be able to use it by emulating the requirement.



			
				
Roland Delacroix said:
			
		

> *UMD is, IMO, a rogue or bard trying to circumvent the normal casting process by overloading the magic item.  Your rogue isn't going to look very mage-like when he has to jump up and down in place while wiggling his ears to get a wand to work.  To use scrolls maybe they have to slam the scroll and tube on the recipients head shouting 'GO!'.  Anyone who thinks this is typical arcane magic would have to be a total idiot.*




That's a good description of the 'activate blindly' use of the skill - but if the rogue knows the command words for the wand, they can attempt to use it 'normally', by emulating spell ability.

I refer you to the fact that rogues need to decipher scrolls before they can attempt to use them - surely that wouldn't be needed if they were merely smacking people with them and saying 'Go!'.



			
				Byrons_Ghost said:
			
		

> *Say the rogue has to emulate two different things, such as both class and alignment. Does she roll for both, or just the higher DC, or what?*




Roll for both - you might be able to emulate one but not the other, after all.



			
				Byrons_Ghost said:
			
		

> *Would multiple rolls require multiple actions? Does even rolling the skill in the first place require it's own action, or is it consider part of activating the item?*




I believe it is subsumed in the attempt to activate the item - I can't find any indication that it takes any longer to use UMD than it does to use the item normally.



			
				Hand of Vecna said:
			
		

> *Hrrmm... could a Bard or Rogue, using UMD, activate an Amulet of Undead Turning by emulating the Turn Undead class feature of a cleric (DC 20 + "cleric's" level), and so actually turn some undead nasties?
> *




I'd have to say 'no'.  While they could emulate Turn Undead, they don't actually get the ability to turn undead - so the amulet's bonus is meaningless to them.



			
				Byrons_Ghost said:
			
		

> *What kind of considerations are taken into account with magic scrolls? The rogue would definately have to emulate spell ability. Then she'd have to emulate an ability score, right? Is it possible for her to emulate it well enough to avoid mishap chances, or is there always going to be a chance of miscasting? *




First, the rogue would have to decipher the scroll, to know what's on it.  That's a DC of 25+spell level.  They get a +2 synergy bonus if they have 5+ ranks of Decipher Script, and a +2 synergy bonus if they have 5+ ranks of Spellcraft.

Once they've done that, then at any time later they can try to use the scroll.  They'd roll to emulate the ability score (if they didn't have it) - if that's not high enough they can't use the scroll at all, and it takes a *lot* to get it up there, because your ability score is the result-15.  To cast even a first level spell from a scroll you need to roll a 26...

Anyway, assuming they either have the ability score or can emulate it, they then roll to emulate caster ability.  Their caster level is their result-20.  Obviously, if they fail (roll below 20) they can't use the scroll.  If they succeed, but the caster level is not high enough to cast the spell, then they make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level +1) - just like a normal caster, but based on their emulated level of course.  If they fail _that_ then it's a Wis check (DC 5) to avoid a mishap.

Hope that clears it up for you.

J


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## Byrons_Ghost (Dec 6, 2002)

Much clearer now. Thanks Doc!  

As for skills and actions, I noticed today that d20 Modern has a skill chart that also lists the sort of action it requires to use the skill. Quite handy.


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