# Adult: GUCK development forum III



## Death By Surfeit (May 5, 2003)

Welcome to the discussion board for the Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge d20 Conversion. This topic is designed as a co-ordinated effort dedicated toward the creation of a definitive, comprehensive and rich sourcebook for D&D 3rd edition covering sexual matters. This is the third topic devoted to such an effort, and with the former one pushing 400 posts the decision was made to create this, the new topic.

We are currently based at www.netbook-of-uck.net, a site at which former versions of the guide and compilation of online addtions are available. People should be advised that adult themes are discussed over the course of this topic; anyone who finds the subject matter distasteful is best advised to stop reading now. Otherwise, we welcome contributions from everyone who cares to give them, provided they deal with the subject matter at hand.

For your convenience, a compiled version of the Core Mechanics is provided below; as is normal with my summaries, it has been quite intensely revised in terms of wording, structure and a few rules details. When everyone has read the current edition, please post your comments on it so that we may address any outstanding issues before progressing any further. Thankyou!

DbS


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## Death By Surfeit (May 5, 2003)

*Existing Guide v1.0*

*GUIDE TO UNLAWFUL CARNAL KNOWLEDGE – COMPLETE CORE MECHANICS V1.0*

The core mechanics found below are the product of many fruitful imaginations combining over at the EnWorld forums in what began as an editing and resulted in practically a rewrite of the d20 GUCK conversion. The rules below are intended to be homogenous, make reasonable sense and easily fit in to any campaign that would like to use them.

Before people start complaining about the quality of writing, presentation and suchlike, please bear in mind this is purely an accumulation of our work so far – impetuous individuals such as yourselves who could not wait for the full edition should be less picky. The draft copy below was designed to be simple, and as such lack the fancy titles, charts and other commodities that would be expected of the finished product, so don’t complain. Instead, you would be best advised to pop over to the ‘GUCK development forum III’ at the EnWorld forums and mustering whatever ideas, advice and expressions of delight you can come up with.

Cheers,

Death By Surfeit, on behalf of VVrayven, Asher, Sorn, Kolvar, Bastoche, Gez, Anabsterconian, Alzrius et al.

May 2003


*STATUS CONDITIONS*
The following are additions to status conditions as found in Chapter 2 of the DMG. Physical arousal and mental horniness only affect those creatures with an active sexual alignment – constructs, elementals, plants, undead and vermin are immune to the following unless specifically stated otherwise.

PHYSICAL CONDITIONS (AROUSAL)
These conditions overlap (do not stack) with each other; a given character only suffers penalties for the most profound of them. For the purposes of rules text, Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic characters are also considered ‘Aroused’, as Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic are stronger forms of Arousal.

Aroused
Aroused characters are physically aroused and ready for congress, males having become erect and females lubricated. Unless compensated for somehow, any attempts at conventional intercourse without being Aroused beforehand incur a -5 circumstance penalty on the Prowess check. Aroused characters suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate situations, including combat). Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). An Aroused character that is not yet Horny must make a Will save (DC 5) each round or become so. A successful Spot check (DC 15 male, 20 female) will give away this condition in another person.

Peaked
Peaked characters are in a heightened state of arousal; their skin flushes with blood, their heart rate and breathing accelerates and they are on the approach to climax. The vivid sensations coursing through their bodies cause Peaked characters to suffer a -4 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for one minute. When this period expires, characters are Aroused instead. They require a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) to cast spells successfully, and if not Horny require a Will save (DC 10) each round to avoid becoming such. A successful Spot check (DC 5 male, 10 female) will give away this condition in another person.

Climaxed
Climaxed characters are overcome by waves of pleasurable sensation, either held in the rapture of an orgasm or teetering on the cusp of one. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round) unless they can make a Fortitude save (DC 30). If they are successful, they may act as if slowed but with a -8 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions. Spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 30 + spell level) to be successful. The condition is obvious to all onlookers.

Ecstasy
Not all orgasms are equal and these are the best of them: an Ecstatic character is lost to courses of blissful pleasure, lost to the world and held deeply in the rapture of exquisite sensation. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round) unless they can make a Fortitude save (DC 40). If they are successful, they may act as if slowed but with a -16 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions. Spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 40 + spell level) to be successful. The condition is obvious to all onlookers.

MENTAL CONDITIONS (HORNINESS)
These conditions overlap (do not stack) with each other; a given character only suffers penalties for the most profound of them. For the purposes of rules text, Lustful and Delirious characters are also considered ‘Horny’, as Lustful and Sexually Delirious are stronger forms of Horniness. The penalties incurred by arousal and horniness do not stack; a given character only takes one set of arousal penalties and makes one Concentration check for spellcasting, taking the most severe value in each case.

Horny
Horny characters are mentally psyched up and raring to go. Characters can typically become Horny by their own discretion unless extenuating circumstances prevail; DMs should feel free to set a Will save in such circumstances.

Unless they can make a Will save (DC 10) for each minute they remain in this state, characters will approach any desirable partners present with advances, regardless of how out-of-place their comments may seem. They need a similar check each round to abstain from sexual activity should the opportunity present itself.

Indecent thoughts cloud the mind of a Horny character, causing them to suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions such as combat), and twice this amount to saves against arousal effects, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). A successful Sense Motive check will give away this condition in another person (DC 20).

Lustful
A Lustful character not only desires sex, they crave it - their mind is consumed by lust and they seek to lose themselves in the sweet dreams of a libido without bounds. Such powerful desire seldom has a mundane basis, and can typically only be brought about by powerful sexcraft, carnal magics or exotic substances.

Unless they can make a Will save (DC 20) each minute they are in this condition, a Lustful character makes moves toward any possible partners, in accordance with their sexual alignment. If rebuffed, characters of evil alignments or low wit may attempt to rape the subjects of their attentions; others are likely to masturbate until they find relief. A successful check allows them to act normally, but with the penalties listed below. Should an opportunity arise, the character needs to make a similar Will save each round to avoid indulging.

Lustful characters suffer a -4 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, and twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Lustfulness typically lasts ten minutes, regardless of circumstances, before residing to Horniness. If the condition is brought about by a spell effect with a fixed duration, Lustfulness lasts that long. Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). A successful Sense Motive check (DC 10) gives away the condition in another person.

Delirious
A Delirious character is beyond the reach of the world and lost in a private world of sensuality, devoid of the will to do anything but satisfy an all-consuming desire for base pleasure. This is not by any means a natural state - only through the machinations of powerful enchantments or by having their Wisdom reduced to 3 or lower whilst aroused can a character enter this state.

Unless the character succeeds in a Will save (DC 30) each round, they are considered Helpless, incapable of taking any action beyond seeking out the nearest source of sexual relief and indulging themselves They lack the awareness to make seduction attempts, instead throwing themselves at whatever looks most satisfying - sexual alignment plays a role where there is a choice of partners, but beyond that a Delirious character will consent to pretty much anything and anyone. They fail any saves they are required to make, and are suggestible as if hypnotised.

If the check is successful, the character may act with a -8 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions (twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor), spellcasting only being possible with a Concentration check (DC 30 + spell level). They will remain in this state until the spell’s duration expires (if the condition was caused by a spell effect), more likely, they pass out through over-exertion. A Delirious character’s condition is obvious to the most casual look.

OTHER CONDITIONS

Unwilling
If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may declare themselves Unwilling as a free action. All arousal and horniness resulting from checks against the character are resisted with an unwilling bonus of between 1 and 20 or more for as long as the condition lasts. Becoming horny negates the benefits of being Unwilling.

Fatigued
In addition to standard penalties to Strength and Dexterity, the DC for Prowess checks to arouse a Fatigued character is increased by 2.

Exhausted
In addition to standard penalties to Strength and Dexterity, the DC for Prowess checks to arouse an Exhausted character is increased by 6. As Exhaustion overlaps Fatigue, only apply the largest penalty of the two.

Recovery
When a male falls from a Climaxed or Ecstatic state, he goes into a period of Recovery. The DC for Prowess checks to arouse him is increased by 8. Recovery overlaps Exhaustion and Fatigue, so only apply the highest penalty of the three. This state lasts for five minutes, or until the character becomes Aroused again.


*THE PROWESS SKILL*
This skill is in addition to the skills normally available to characters, as found in Chapter 3 of the PHB.

PROWESS (Cha)
Use this skill to bewilder your sexual partners with an array of exotic techniques. Prowess is a class skill for all characters.

As with the Perform skill, each rank in Prowess grants you a sexual proficiency, either physical or mental, within which you can apply your rank bonus to checks - you may not apply your Prowess bonus to any application for which you do not have the appropriate proficiency.

For example, three ranks in prowess could allow a character to be proficient with Masturbation (Male), Penetrative (Matrimonial), and DSM  (Domination). These three proficiencies would allow the character to add their +3 rank bonus to a Prowess check; all other proficiencies would be with a +0 instead.

The groups of proficiencies are listed overleaf, alongside a brief description of their nature. Some of these groups are open-ended (with ‘etc.’ after the suggested proficiencies); feel free to concoct your own additions to these proficiency groups, provided they are within the nature of those preceding them.

Special: Regardless of circumstances, it is impossible to take 10 or take 20 on a Prowess check, due to its unpredictable nature.

PROFICIENCIES

Physical Proficiencies:

Caress (By type - Breasts, Erotic Massage, Stroking etc.)
Gentle touches, brushes and strokes of the anatomy.
Aroused +0, Peaked +2, Climaxed +10, Ecstatic +10

Masturbation (Male, Female)
More forceful manipulation of the sexual organs, with some limited stroking of erogenous zones.
Aroused +5, Peaked +0, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +5

Oral (Cunnilingus, Fellatio)
The application of oral sex on women and men, respectively.
Aroused +5, Peaked +0, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +5

Penetrative (By position - Cross, Frontal, Half-facing, Inverted, Matrimonial, Negresse, Rear, Riding, Scissors, Standing etc.)
Vaginal intercourse, separated by specific position.
Aroused +10, Peaked +2, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +0

Sodomy (Receiving)
Anal intercourse; receiving may be used to pleasure the thruster.
Aroused +10, Peaked +2, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +0

Toys (By item - Dildos, Fruit, Wands, Wizards' Staffs, etc.)
Similar to masturbation, but with the use of objects.
Aroused +10, Peaked +2, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +0

When a partner is using a Penetrative technique against them, characters always make a Prowess check back, if only by virtue of just lying there (this is regardless of whether or not the partner wishes to). If they do not add their rank bonus to this reflexive roll, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other prowess checks they may wish to make that extended round.

Mental Proficiencies:

Bondage (By type - Contortion, Hanging, Inverted, Ties etc.)
5 or more ranks in Use Rope provide a +2 synergy bonus to this proficiency. Subjects may be bound with a successful (DC 10/11) use of this proficiency. They then receive the kink modifiers associated with bondage for further arousal.

DSM (Domination, Submission)
5 or more ranks in Intimidate provide a +2 synergy bonus to the Domination proficiency; 5 or more ranks in Sense Motive provide a +2 synergy bonus to the Submission proficiency. Subjects may be turned on by your dominating or submissive performance with a successful (DC 10/11) use of this proficiency. They then receive the kink modifiers associated with domination or submission (respectively) for further arousal.

Dirty Talk (By approach - Filthy, Sweet, Poetic)
5 or more ranks in Innuendo provide a +2 synergy bonus to this proficiency, and 5 or more ranks in Diplomacy provide an additional +2 bonus; these bonuses stack.

Erotic Dance (By type - Lapdance, Poledance, Striptease, etc.)
5 or more ranks in Perform (dance) provide a +2 synergy bonus to this proficiency. If you incur a single –4 penalty, all people within 30ft with good line of sight may be affected by your check.


THE PROWESS CHECK

Prowess is used to induce a state of physical arousal or mental horniness upon another creature, or even yourself. To do so requires one minute (ten combat rounds) of devoted attention to make a single check.

The Extended Round
Where detail is necessary (such as simultaneous congress and combat), it is best to imagine minute-long ‘extended rounds’ broken up into ten combat rounds each. Prowess checks are declared at the beginning of each extended round, and (unless interrupted) resolved at the end of each.

Within each extended round, the first round may be used to change position, cast a performance-enhancing spell or some other action; this is time in which to prepare for further activity.

Each character must then declare which proficiency they are using, and against whom. Where you have a rank bonus in the proficiency, declare how much of that bonus you are using at this point.

The remaining nine rounds must be spent pleasuring your partner with the proficiency you stated (a full-round action incurring attacks of opportunity). Should you stop during any point in the nine rounds, the check automatically fails. Any circumstance, spell or other effects active for at least five rounds of this period will be included as modifiers to the Prowess check.

At the end of each extended round, work out the effects of Prowess checks against each individual involved and consult Table 1-01: Arousal DCs or Table 1-02: Horniness DCs, adjusting the status condition for each character to that appropriate for the highest DC reached.

Where a character has been the subject of multiple Prowess checks, take the highest result as the basic roll. Each further roll sufficient to maintain or raise the character’s arousal or horniness adds +2 to this roll; each one rolling below this deducts –2 instead. Where physical and mental proficiencies have been used on a character, resolve this process for each.

Multiple Partners
It is possible to make physical Prowess checks against multiple partners, provided that they are all within easy reach and you each have sufficient appendages for the task, although a cumulative –4 penalty to all checks made is imposed for each Prowess check after the first. You may not make more checks simultaneously than (1 + your Dexterity modifier).

The tables below show the DC to increase a character’s arousal or horniness according to their present condition, and their gender (male characters use the numbers before the slash, females the number afterward). Modify this DC according to Table 1-03: Check DC Modifiers. The highest DC acheived represents the new state of the character. Where the roll fails to acheive any listed DC for the character’s present condition no change takes place, and existing arousal or horniness may expire (according to its duration).

Table 1-01: Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
None -/- 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused -/- 7/9 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked -/- -/- 8/10 16/20 32/40

Table 1-02: Mental Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Horny - Lustful - Delirious
None -/- 10/11 50/55 90/99
Horny -/- 1/1 30/33 70/77
Lustful -/- -/- 10/11 50/55

Table 1-03: Check DC Modifiers
Subject Status
+2 when subject of check is Fatigued
+6 when subject of check is Exhausted
+8 when subject of check is in Recovery
Proficiency
+2 unusual proficiency
+5 inappropriate proficiency
+10 very inappropriate proficiency
+4 per additional Prowess check made during extended round
Circumstances
+2 awkward circumstances (eg. in public)
+5 dangerous circumstances (eg. in combat)
Fetishes & Frets
-fetish bonus (according to fetish) when used on a partner with the fetish
+fret penalty (according to fret) when appropriate
Damage
+total damage received in round if subject is not masochistic
-total damage received in round if subject is masochistic
-total damage dealt to partners in round if subject is sadistic
Sexual Alignment
+2 subject is of an unpreferred gender
+5 subject is of an unaccepted gender

Resisting Prowess Checks
Having Prowess checks made against you is not a passive process. When a physical or mental proficiency is used against them, characters are entitled to a Fortitude or Will save respectively to resist the effects. If a character is Unwilling, they will attempt this save against all checks used against them, adding their Unwilling bonus to the result.

This check is only made against mundane Prowess checks; arousal or horniness arising from spells and other supernatural means are resisted as described in the spell or ability descriptions.

Table 1-04: Arousal Resistance DCs
Rise to Aroused DC 10
Rise to Peaked DC 15
Rise to Climaxed DC 20
Rise to Ecstasy DC 25

Table 1-05: Horniness Resistance DCs
Rise to Horny DC 10
Rise to Lustful DC 20
Rise to Delirious DC 30 

Climax and Ecstasy
When a check result indicates that a character has become Climaxed or Ecstatic, the next extended round for them is handled differently, as their partner(s) try to prolong or intensify the character’s rapture. They are in a Climaxed or Ecstatic state for the first round, but thereafter Prowess checks are made against them at the end of each round, to the DCs set out below. Should the checks fail to meet either at these DCs, the character’s arousal immediately resides to Aroused (if female) or None (if male), with no resisting save.

Table 1-06: Extended Climax DCs
Round - Climax DC - Ecstasy DC
1st 24/25 - 32/40
2nd 32/30 - 64/60
3rd 40/35 - 80/70
4th 48/40 - 96/80 
5th 56/45 - 112/90
6th 64/50 – 128/100
7th 72/55 – 144/110
8th 80/60 – 160/120
9th 88/65 – 176/130

Sexual Fatigue
Undergoing climax is exhausting both mentally and physically, and as such characters are limited to how long they can remain in this state. For both genders, each round spent in Climax does 1 point of temporary Wisdom damage, whilst each round spent in Ecstasy does 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage as a result of mental fatigue. Physical faitgue is as follows:

Male characters can sustain (1 + Con bonus) rounds of Climax or one round of Ecstasy before becoming Fatigued. Once Fatigued, they can sustain (1 + Con bonus) rounds of Climax or one round of Ecstasy before becoming Exhausted. Furthermore, once they have dropped from a state of Climax or Ecstasy, they go into a state of Recovery.

Female characters can sustain (1 + Con bonus) rounds of Climax or one round of Ecstasy before becoming Fatigued. Once Fatigued, they can sustain (Con score) rounds of Climax or one round of Ecstasy before becoming Exhausted.

Whilst a character is Exhausted, becoming Climaxed inflicts a points of subdual damage equal to their character’s HD. Becoming Ecstatic whilst Exhausted inflicts enough subdual damage to render a character unconscious, plus a further points equal to a character’s HD.

(Note: Graitfication, Size Matters and similar peripheral rules will be posted as soon as the current rules have been agreed upon. Thankyou and goodnight.)


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## Sorn (May 5, 2003)

DbS, wasn't the last complete version we had v1.0? Could we agree on some sort of consitant version numbers? Each chapter is going to be it's own version number, so summing things up will lead to a lot of confusion (mostly me).  

The most recent version of the Prowess mechanics should be 1.4a, however I can spot differences between VVrayven's last mechanics post and yours (most notably flavor text, haven't checked in detail yet).  

Is your post v1.4b then?


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## VVrayven (May 5, 2003)

Sorn: Consider DbS's post to be 1.5. He had used all of my ideas and cut stuff where it needed to be cut.

DbS: Excellent work. <breathless> Again you amaze me with your ability to simply a rule set and spell it out clearly. I agree with you on the sodomy issue now. The only other things I think we should clarify are: 1) the Climax time length is a little vauge. I think the mechanics haven't changed in your version, but I'm a little unclear on how the text reads in that section. 2) We might want to consider a different usage than "extended round" but perhaps that's just me being difficult. But other than those... This looks incredible. Great job DbS! <blows a kiss>

Note to DbS: Take the comma out of your hyperlink in the first post. 

Some minor things have changed. I'll tweak the program and give it a run later.

New Order of Operations:

1) Confirm the Core Mechanics (v1.5) First Half

2) Confirm the Core Mechanics (v1.5) Second Half (grat,size,etc)

3) Complete content for Chapter 2 (New uses for Feats, Feats, Carnal Arts), Chapter 3 (Sexual Orientation, Kinks/Frets, PHB alignment, sexual alignment, etc...), and Chapter 5 (sex dieases, childbirth).

4) Complete content for Chapter 6 (classes and PrC), Chapter 7 (magic, new use for spells, spells), and Chapter 8 (clothing, magic items).

5) Complete Chapters 9, 10, and 1 and the 3-5 apxs. 

6) Rejoice and rest and (well you know. )

And we're off!


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## Sorn (May 5, 2003)

Thanks VVrayven. I'll get going on this right now. Should be up in an hour or two.

Spot on with the task list. I think I'll put that on the site as well so we have an easy reference once the thread goes to multiple pages.

Edit: And yes, looks good to me, so Thumbs Up for approval on my end.


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## Sorn (May 5, 2003)

Core Mechanics v1.5 are up on the site.

I also added the To-Do list, with some minor changes and additions.


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## Alzrius (May 5, 2003)

Good to see things are perking up (pun intended).  

DBS, nice job with the new write-up of things. There are some things I wanted to mention though (I'm anal, just not in the Prowess sense). 

This may seem somewhat superfluous, but what about adding in a clause to the Horny descriptor (and maybe the two advanced stages of mental arousal) mentioning that they induce physical arousal (character becomes Aroused, etc). That would make the two states (Aroused and Horny) sort of slingshot back and forth, with one always ensuring the other happens. For ease of use, that'd probably just be that Horny, and maybe Lustful, cause the character to become Aroused with some level of Fort save. That'd be enough, and it seems somewhat realistic.

I like the new way of gaining different proficiencies though: the character gains a new proficiency for every rank he takes in Prowess, and can use his full bonus on each Prowess check with every proficiency. Excellent idea.

I notice that for the physical Prowess proficiencies (but curiously, not the mental ones) you list the DC modifiers for inducing different states of physical arousal in the target. You may want to put a mention in the section above that this increase is for the DC itself, not the Prowess check; it seems to me most people will assume this is a bonus to the roll to make it easier, not a DC increase to indicate that the task is harder - otherwise what we're trying to indicate here gets reversed.

I personally still think Sodomy should be moved over to just a subproficiency in Penetrative. I understand that you set it up so that it was intentionally difficult for the receipient of sodomy to feel pleasure, but the way it is now, the only thing the penetrator can do is manually use another Prowess check against the target creature, effectively making giving sodomy a non-action, since it has no proficiency, and that strikes me as a bit much. Pleasure should be possible, and this seems like too small a point to inject real-world technicalities. Nothing would be lost by moving it over to Penetrative, especially given that the arousal DC modifiers are the same.

Beyond that, this looks really great!

That said, there are also a couple more races I thought maybe could be added to the racial notes section. I'm still working on a few (its difficult without my books here with me), but here's one so far:

*Hags*: Hags of all sorts primarily use sex as a cruel joke to play on hapless males, with reproduction being a distant second. Hags are disgusted by homoeroticism, and never engage in it, even with other members of their covey. Annis and green hags use their natural powers to disguise themselves as beautiful maidens and seduce men they can get alone. Shortly after copulating, they reveal their true guise, delighting in their victims horror before they kill (and usually devour) them. Sea hags, being unable to change their appearance, are noted for brutally capturing sailors and horribly forcing themselves on them. Pregnant hags always give birth to female children, that look like normal human girls. Hags secretly switch their own children with those of normal women, killing the helpless human child and abandoning their own to the unsuspecting human parents. The hag child tends to horribly metamorph into a hag during her late teenage years.

This will probably need to be edited, but that aside, what do people think?

EDIT: Btw Sorn, I just wanted to mention that you should probably change the EN World link over on the DevThreads section to point to this new thread now. And could I maybe get a nod over in Contacts? Thanks.


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## VVrayven (May 5, 2003)

> This may seem somewhat superfluous, but what about adding in a clause to the Horny descriptor




We'll consider this. I want to hear DbS's take on why he removed it first. 



> I like the new way of gaining different proficiencies though: the character gains a new proficiency for every rank he takes in Prowess, and can use his full bonus on each Prowess check with every proficiency. Excellent idea.




It has always worked like this, silly.  Nothing has changed, except now it is a little clearer.



> I notice that for the physical Prowess proficiencies (but curiously, not the mental ones) you list the DC modifiers for inducing different states of physical arousal in the target.




There are no mental modifiers, but a good point to list is as a DC modifier. The reason there are no mental modifiers is the tech has no effect on grades. All mental techs are equally good at trying for any grade of mental arousal.



> I personally still think Sodomy should be moved over to just a subproficiency in Penetrative.




Point taken, but still like it this way. Makes expanding much easier if need be.

Neato hag stuff.


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## Sorn (May 5, 2003)

Alzrius: I added your entry on hags to the race chapter. I also added you to the contact page, including your email address.

Everybody else... anyone who contributed, please let me know if you want to be on the contact page. And since it's a contact page, also if you want your email address listed so people can contact you. 

I don't want to publish anyone's email address without prior consent, so lemme know.

Plus, after reading in more detail while formatting, I have some questions regarding prowess... 

Proficiencies... instead of denying someone who is non-proficient in a certain technique their Prowess ranks, wouldn't a flat non-proficiency penalty be better? This might have been asked before, but I've been known to space out every so often. If we take a cue from D&D weapon profs and make it a flat -4 penalty, it would make it a lot easier for higher-level characters with max ranks. Once you are pretty good at e.g. Penetration (Missionary), it's not that far of a stretch that you could perform Penetration (Doggie Style) and be fairly good at it. You wouldn't be as good as missionary, but not as bad as Joe the Virgin on his wedding night. People with less than 4 ranks will get more of a penalty, but that would demonstrate the mostly clumsy attempts to try that new position they saw in the Kama Sutra. 

In a similar area, the DC modifier table has entries for unusual, inappropriate and very inappropriate proficiencies. I think we need to elaborate on that a little.


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## Alzrius (May 6, 2003)

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *The reason there are no mental modifiers is the tech has no effect on grades. All mental techs are equally good at trying for any grade of mental arousal.*




Hmm, that was different in the previous version, but I guess I can see the rationale, particularly since Mental arousal seems to be secondary to physical.



> *Makes expanding much easier if need be.*




How so? Sodomy (receiving) has no "etc" listed, so the subproficiencies can't be expanded in that regard.

Sorn, I can see where you're coming from with possibly just providing a penalty to nonproficient Prowess rolls, but there is another side to it. This would allow someone to make a Prowess roll for a proficiency that they have no knowledge of otherwise with comparatively little penalty. Being pretty good at Penetration (Missionary) should mean you're almost as good at, say, Erotic Dance (lapdancing), which is what that system would encourage.

That said, you're right on the unusual/inappropriate/very inappropriate vein. I also noticed that for every additional Prowess made at once, there is a cumulative +4 DC increase. However, under the "Multiple Partners" part of the Prowess check skill, it already says there is a -4 penalty per additional Prowess check made at once. Together, this is a -8 penalty, since the roll is -4 and the DC is +4, per additional check. One or the other should be chosen.


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## VVrayven (May 6, 2003)

> Hmm, that was different in the previous version, but I guess I can see the rationale, particularly since Mental arousal seems to be secondary to physical.




Actually, I don't believe their were tech suitability mods in the first one either. And it isn't the mental is secondary. Mental is FAR more powerful than physicsal and as such is much harder to induce. Physical arousal is eaiser and the variety of techs change the way it is used dramatically, hence why orgasm through a body massage is harder... Mental arousal is on the other hand, different for each person. A lapdance isn't neccessarily any better at moving someone from horny to lustful than say pillow talk. None of these can be classified in such ways. That is why they always have (and will) never have tech suitability mods.



> How so? Sodomy (receiving) has no "etc" listed, so the subproficiencies can't be expanded in that regard.




It doesn't need etc. If WE want to edit it for rear positions or sodomy that pleasures both partners, it is far easier this way. AND, it's nice to keep penatrative locked in to those positions that are ONLY intercourse. That way if we need to specifiy something that "only works on penetrative techs" the statement is much eaiser, since we always know what we are refering to.



> Sorn, I can see where you're coming from with possibly just providing a penalty to nonproficient Prowess rolls, but there is another side to it. This would allow someone to make a Prowess roll for a proficiency that they have no knowledge of otherwise with comparatively little penalty.




Agreed.



> I also noticed that for every additional Prowess made at once, there is a cumulative +4 DC increase. However, under the "Multiple Partners" part of the Prowess check skill, it already says there is a -4 penalty per additional Prowess check made at once. Together, this is a -8 penalty, since the roll is -4 and the DC is +4, per additional check. One or the other should be chosen.




If you will notice, ALL of the modifiers mentioned in the text are in the table. The table is a quick reference. Hence I could just as easiliy say that the exhausted status condition says there is a penalty and it is in the circumstance chart so it should be counted twice. I see no reason to not state it twice, in fact, I think it is neccessary for clarity.


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## Alzrius (May 6, 2003)

VVrayven said:
			
		

> * Actually, I don't believe their were tech suitability mods in the first one either.*




My bad!



> *It doesn't need etc. If WE want to edit it for rear positions or sodomy that pleasures both partners, it is far easier this way. AND, it's nice to keep penatrative locked in to those positions that are ONLY intercourse. That way if we need to specifiy something that "only works on penetrative techs" the statement is much eaiser, since we always know what we are refering to.*




I ultimately see this as slicing it very thinly though. The act of Sodomy is itself a penetrative act.

What's more, as I pointed out, this apparently leaves it that the sodomizer has no Prowess proficiency for commiting Sodomy on another. This makes it a non-action, as far as Prowess is concerned, meaning that he'd be able to make another Prowess roll freely on something else at the same time, since Sodomizing someone else doesn't require one this way.

Conceivably, most DMs would get around this by just adding it to the Penetrative list, but then the extra listing by itself becomes superfluous, since women take Penetrative techniques also to be on the receiving end. Sodomy in that instance would just be more confusing, all the more so given the DC mods are the same.



> *If you will notice, ALL of the modifiers mentioned in the text are in the table. The table is a quick reference. Hence I could just as easiliy say that the exhausted status condition says there is a penalty and it is in the circumstance chart so it should be counted twice. I see no reason to not state it twice, in fact, I think it is neccessary for clarity. *




Its not that its being stated twice that bothers me though. Its that the same thing is being stated differently each time in that instance (emphasis mine):



> Multiple Partners
> It is possible to make physical Prowess checks against multiple partners, provided that they are all within easy reach and you each have sufficient appendages for the task, although a cumulative *–4 penalty* to all checks made is imposed for each Prowess check after the first. You may not make more checks simultaneously than (1 + your Dexterity modifier).






> Table 1-03: Check DC Modifiers
> [...]
> *+4* per additional Prowess check made during extended round




A penalty to the roll is different from an increase to the DC. The current language seems to suggest these are added concurrently, making the penalty here double. This problem of language doesn't happen elsewhere, since Exhausted, for example, says its a DC increase both times.


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## Sorn (May 6, 2003)

Ok, makes sense on the non-proficiency penalty. 

The "multiple prowess checks" issue should be easily fixed by making the wording consistant. Overall, I was getting a little confused myself when I was formatting the modifier table.

Instead of DC modifiers, how about we go with check modifiers. I personally find the latter a lot more intuitive (+ means good, - means bad), while -bonus/+penalty just seems odd to me.

On the sodomy issue... how about we change Sodomy (receiving) to Non-Vaginal Receiving (Anal, Breasts, Thighs, Armpits, etc.)?


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## VVrayven (May 6, 2003)

Heya boys, sorry if I was a little bithcy last night.  I'll try to keep it in check.

I agree to change the wording on the multiple partner penalty, but it does need to be stated in both places.

I disagree with changing our DC policy. While it doesn't technically matter, in standard d20 the DC changes via the difficultly of the manuver. Tech suitability is a fine example of where the DC itself should change. Plus, all of the other circumstantial modifiers do modify the roll. However, all of this does need to be clearly stated.

And I think the Non-Vaginal Recieving is an EXCELLENT idea.

That should probably be re-named though to something a little better. And more importantly, we still have the issue of what prof, the male is using during these times. I'll let DbS reply to this one first as he usually has a far better and more elegant solution. I really do think we should go with this new category though.

So the proposed changes as of now are:

1) Grades of non-prof penalties.

2) Switching Sodomy (receiving) to:

Non-Vaginal Recieving (sodomy, breasts, armpit, etc...)

3) What does the male use during these profs?


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## Sorn (May 6, 2003)

> I agree to change the wording on the multiple partner penalty, but it does need to be stated in both places.




Sounds good. 

No prob on the DC mod vs. Check mod... 



> And I think the Non-Vaginal Recieving is an EXCELLENT idea.
> 
> That should probably be re-named though to something a little better. And more importantly, we still have the issue of what prof, the male is using during these times.




Thanks. I agree, the name I came up with is rather dry and somewhat dorky. Definitely a name change needed there.

As for the male situation, how about we make it Non-Vaginal Intercourse (without giving or receiving, and still pending a better name)? 

Both men and women have to take a proficiency for just about every regular position, so why not keep it consistent for the non-standard stuff. When both partners are into anal sex, they would both pick up NVI (Anal). Most of the non-vaginal stuff is more pleasurable for men, so we'd need some modifiers for it like the other techniques. 

The only problem I can see is combining positions with NVI techniques, which would happen on a regular basis... e.g. anal from behind vs. anal w/ woman on top.


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## Gez (May 7, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *Everybody else... anyone who contributed, please let me know if you want to be on the contact page. And since it's a contact page, also if you want your email address listed so people can contact you.
> 
> I don't want to publish anyone's email address without prior consent, so lemme know.*




Well... Given the amount of obnoxious spam that I get, I had to put some filters that risk to send technical discussions to the trash box. I'm not opposed to being put on the contact page, but if people want to talk to me about the guide, they'd better post in that thread, I think.



			
				Sorn said:
			
		

> *Proficiencies... instead of denying someone who is non-proficient in a certain technique their Prowess ranks, wouldn't a flat non-proficiency penalty be better? This might have been asked before, but I've been known to space out every so often. If we take a cue from D&D weapon profs and make it a flat -4 penalty, it would make it a lot easier for higher-level characters with max ranks.*




When I proposed to use the one rank = one proficiency mechanics, I was borrowing from both the Perform skill and the combat proficiency. I think I even said that clearly -- that lack of a prof would result in a -4 penalty.



			
				Sorn said:
			
		

> *Thanks. I agree, the name I came up with is rather dry and somewhat dorky. Definitely a name change needed there.
> 
> As for the male situation, how about we make it Non-Vaginal Intercourse (without giving or receiving, and still pending a better name)? *




Exotic I. or Non-Standard I. ? The norm being male sex organ inside female sex organ... By the way, male may get prostatic orgasm from being sodomized. The DC for pleasing a woman with her backdoor would be thus higher than for men.


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## Alzrius (May 7, 2003)

One thing I'm slightly worried about with an NVI category is that it could possibly seen as overlapping other things where its technically intercourse (a male thrusts against some part of the other person). For example, if it works for thighs, breasts, etc., what about mouth, or hands, despite there being Prowess proficiencies for that?

I think we should just revise the Penetrative proficiency so that it isn't just by position only. Granted, positions would still be listed, but it wouldnt just be vaginal intercourse in various positions, but also have other body parts listed. 

Admittedly, that wouldn't solve the problem of anal intercourse in various positions, but something like that may be more specific than our current system can handle.


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## VVrayven (May 7, 2003)

I'm against that. I think the listings of positional and oral will make it fairly obvious and intuitive that NVI is the catchall for other stuff. Penetrative should be straight organ to organ sex and nothing else. I stand by this. I think only positions should be listed in it.


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## Alzrius (May 7, 2003)

It's not so much obviousness I'm worried about as it is possible wiggle-room for rules-lawyering. Admittedly, any good DM will shut that down anyway, but why make it harder for them by leaving this minor ambiguity there in the first place?

That and I just think things were the male is penetrating should be under Penetrative, whether its vaginal or not, but thats just my take on it.


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## VVrayven (May 7, 2003)

Okies. Let me take some time to explain my reasoning.

1) I know we aim to make a good product, but honestly, I don't see big threads poping up over rules-lawyering our GUCK rules. Prowess is by position, and I think throwing all those other things in with penetrative will actually make it more confusing.

2) I want to keep penetrative open to just sex because it is far eaiser to use it as a categorical bonus that way. If you are making a carnal art or spell and need to add a bonus to just intercourse (i.e. not sodomy or breast-sex etc...) all you need to do is say +2 to any penetrative tech. If we add a whole bunch of other stuff to the category, this just means more work. The grouping system exists for many reasons and the more things we group into one category the less useful it is.

I think the NVI category is a great idea. It encompasses a whole sleugh of options that were previous being overlooked and all are somewhat related. It deserves to be a category of its own. As for people mixing up positions and techs... I don't think it will be much of an issue. If neccessary we will write a sidebar explaining that the most "exotic" or relavant tech should be applied. I.E. if they are practicing sodomy in the doggie style fashion, sodomy is more exotic and more relavant thus it takes prescedent. If the person is using oral sex in the kama sutra ??? position, that surely is exotic, but it isn't more relevant, so the oral takes precedent. I don't see this as an issue and personally don't think it needs to be picked at any more.

Just my thoughts, clarifications, and reasonings.


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## Alzrius (May 7, 2003)

Your reasoning seems sound enough. I agree it doesn't need to be "picked at" anymore either.


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## Alzrius (May 7, 2003)

More entries for the Races section:

*Beholders*: The sexuality of beholders is almost as alien as everything else about them. Beholders have very little sexual drive, save for a periodic overpowering urge to procreate that happens at irregular points in their lives. Being androgynous, they fulfil this urge with another beholder whom they find "worthy" (with worthiness being whatever their ego permits), resulting in a bizarre and disgusting mating that leaves both creatures pregnant with three to six young each, who are born live. While a beholder can self-impregnante, most do not unless another beholder is unavailable. In beholder society, the first birthing is a mark of adulthood. Beholders have very little understanding of the sexual characteristics of virtually every race besides their own.

*Titans*: Titans are very free about their sexuality. They are often bisexual, and see sex as something to be enjoyed to the fullest, with everyone entertaining whatever turns them on most. They frequently have sexual spells in their spellcasting repertoire, and find nothing adverse in shapechanging into other forms to mate with different creatures. Although titans believe that things such as rape are horrible acts that deserve the harshest punishments, they have no compunctions about using spells that induce lust in a creature and then making sexual advances on them. They see this as merely helping to remove another's inhibitions, and that if the person truly doesn't desire sex, they will rebuff their advances despite being aroused.


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## Alzrius (May 7, 2003)

Some entries that I thought would be good for the New Uses for Existing Spells part of Sexual Magic:

*Binding*: the chaining version of this spell can be used for bondage for purposes of sex.

*Calm Animals*: This spell merely pacifies animals, but does not necessarily incline them to view the caster as more favorable as a sexual partner. Attempting to mate with them where they do not desire it (that is, attempted rape) counts as a form of attack, and they may defend themselves as such while under this spell’s influence. Any form of mental arousal in the animal (Horny, Lustful, or Delirious) is negated by this spell.

*Calm Emotions*: While this spell does stop the object of sexual advances from becoming vehement in refusal, it doesn’t make them thusly more inclined to accept advances where they normally wouldn’t. Attempting to rape the target of this spell is an attack, and they may defend themselves normally while under this spell’s influence. Any form of mental arousal (Horny, Lustful, or Delirious) is negated by this spell.

*Entangle*: This spell is also useful for those who enjoy being bound…or for someone looking to subdue victims to sate themselves on.

*Gaseous Form*: One particularly odd fetish involves having a sexual partner actually _inhale_ someone who has this spell cast on them! They always exhale the person before the spell ends (for fear of their life), but describe having someone else inside them as being a “wonderfully intimate and powerfully erotic” experience.

*Gate*: This spell can be used to open a gate to a succubus or erinyes to enjoy in bed. However, they are under no compulsion to come through the gate nor obey the spellcaster, making this spell not as useful as other planar summoning and controlling spells.

*Gentle Repose*: This spell is choice among necrophiliacs, since it keeps the corpse from decaying.

*Hold Animal/Monster/Person*: These spells paralyze victims, making them prime choices among sexual predators, since it keeps their victims still and unable to cry out. Most rapists love the sensation of power this gives them over their victims. Other times its used among couples as a show of intimacy, since one partner would have to trust the other very much to let themselves be paralyzed, since their partner could do anything with them…or to them.

*Instant Summons*: The perfect spell for summoning a much-loved sex toy into your hand.

*Magic Jar*: Jealous spellcasters have been known to use this spell to take over the body of someone that they themselves were spurned in favor of. In some cases, the spellcaster is content to just have sex with the desired person in the victim’s body, but other times they deliberately do things that will ruin the victim’s reputation so that the caster will then be seen as the more favorable choice.

*Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion*: Need a place to have a hidden tryst? This spell is perfect for a quick place to enjoy affection in private.

*Major Creation*: Virtually any type of sex toy can be created with this spell.

*Minor Creation*: Relatively small, simple sex toys, such as dildos, clamps, etc., can be created with this spell.

*Reduce*: The caster can use this spell to make herself smaller, but cannot be used to increase the size of a specific body part. It could be used to make the caster go from one size category to another (depending on level and starting size), which may have effects on the size of their vagina.

*Telepathic Bond*: Partners who are open with each other find this spell handy in the bedroom, as it allows them to communicate even when their mouths may be busy with other things. It’s also said to be very intimate to be able to speak telepathically to your partner while making love.

*Unseen Servant*: An unseen servant can be commanded to perform a carnal act, which it does with mindless repetition. However, for some lonely casters, the sensation of the repeated, single-minded stroking or rubbing is pleasurable enough, while others have it do something to themselves or a partner while engaged in sex, since the servant is invisible and shapeless.


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## SinbadBleu (May 7, 2003)

I too like the NVI term and usage, it sums up some terms and issues.

Has there been any posting a Erotic Art for female to female sex acts. Yes some of the current ones could be used, but say The Mastery Of Sapho would give bonuses to the oral arts on females and as a feat later on say the tongue gets larger and or more dextrous, allowing more bonuses to the DC's.

I will hold off on commenting on the spells at this time, spells are for only after the core rules/structure are nearly done, yes? 

I do not think the BoEF will have much effect on this guide. To a Primodial like myself, AV is a JAFM.(Just Another F****** Manager).

I hope it does well though, but the process will be interesting to say the least.


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## Gez (May 7, 2003)

SinbadBleu said:
			
		

> *the tongue gets larger and or more dextrous, allowing more bonuses to the DC's.*




More dextrous is OK, but larger is freaky (and not necessarily practical for things like speech, or even eating).




			
				SinbadBleu said:
			
		

> *Anthony Valterra is a JAFM.(Just Another F****** Manager).*




Which makes him all the more expert in that particular domain, since the GUCK is rules for managing f***ing. 

By the way, I had this idea for an advertising slogan for the GUCK:

RTFM

It contains all, doesn't it ?


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## SinbadBleu (May 7, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> *
> 
> More dextrous is OK, but larger is freaky (and not necessarily practical for things like speech, or even eating).
> *
> ...


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## Knight-of-Roses (May 11, 2003)

This is such a fun project.  Thanks everyone for volunteering time and effort for it.

Looking over the PrC up at the website:

May I suggest re-naming the Not-So-White Knight as the Tarnished Champion?  When I am done with my current project, I will see about rewriting it if someone else has not already done so.

The Chaste Virgin seems a little underpowered losing a HD type and BAB for special abilities with very narrow aplications.  I would increase their Skills to 4 + Int per level and add Perform (Cha) to their class skill list.   Also, what if the ChV already has the Innocence and Purity domains?  Add Good and Healing to their choices for their Bonus Domain ability?

More thoughts later as I have time.  Keep up the good work everyone.


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## Sorn (May 12, 2003)

Tarnished Champion sounds good to me. 

But, let's keep the discussion on the core mechanics for now to get those done... 
VVrayven, DbS... any news on that front?


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## Death By Surfeit (May 12, 2003)

Wotcher,

Apologies for the delay in posting; I have shedloads of work on at the moment, and my opportunities to post will be sporadic at most over the next month or so. I’ll aim to post as often as possible, but am nevertheless likely to be confined to initiating and summarising discussion.

Firstly, thankyou everyone for the feedback; I cannot accredit you individually for your contributions, but you collectively have my salutations. Certain suggestions have been brilliant, and as such, I would like to propose rules modifications as follows:

1) The Core Mechanics are to be labelled version 1.5.1.
2) If a person is horny (Horny, Lustful or Ecstatic), they may become Aroused as a free action. This condition lasts as long as they are horny. The reverse is not possible, as horniness represents more than ordinary randiness.
3) All modifications to Prowess checks affect the roll, not the DC. The use of charts makes it difficult enough without involving modifiers, and it seems more natural this way. The DC Modifiers Table will be adjusted accordingly.
4) NVI is officially christened a proficiency group – a catchall category for penetrative sex not using the body parts covered by other groups. The recipient is the only one who makes Prowess checks in this situation; modifiers are identical to Penetrative, Toys et al. However, a name with more ring to it is much saught after.

I would like to suggest a precise agenda as follows (shamelessly copied from VVrayven):

1) Final clarification of Core Mechanics v.1.5.1
2) Clarification of Extended Mechanics (soon to be posted)
3) Clarification of Feats & Carnal Arts (again on their way)
4) Sexual Alignment & Kinks
5) Pregnancy & Childbirth
6) Sexual diseases
7) Spells & New uses for spells
8) Equipment, Mundane & Magical
9) Classes & PrCs
10) Monsters
11) Source material
12) Additional information, summaries etc.
13) Confirmation of completed above
14) Addition of new material
15) Finalisation
16) Rejoicing, and a special present from myself.

Yes! A special present from myself! To add a little additional incentive, I am offering (upon completion of the GUCK) to host a D&D game in a suitably raunchy setting as a demonstration of how the system can be used, as a playtest to check for faults, and as compensation for all of your efforts. Core contributors get first dibs on participation. BUT no discussion of this at the present time – this is a directed effort, dontcha know.

Anyways, I shall post a copy of the Extended Mechanics in a little while as I complete the revisions necessary. In the meantime, confirmation for the above changes (and a new name for NVI) would be appreciated. Thanks!

DbS


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## Alzrius (May 13, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *I would like to propose rules modifications as follows:
> 
> 1) The Core Mechanics are to be labelled version 1.5.1.
> 2) If a person is horny (Horny, Lustful or Ecstatic), they may become Aroused as a free action. This condition lasts as long as they are horny. The reverse is not possible, as horniness represents more than ordinary randiness.*




#1 sounds fine to me.  Number two could use some minor clarification, I think. Its that, when in a state of mental arousal, you may willingly become physically aroused at will? That strikes me as slightly odd...also, I assume that once you do become physically aroused that way, you can't then stop at will also, right? That said, this sounds good otherwise.



> *3) All modifications to Prowess checks affect the roll, not the DC. The use of charts makes it difficult enough without involving modifiers, and it seems more natural this way. The DC Modifiers Table will be adjusted accordingly.*




I agree that this does seem more natural. Good call!



> *4) NVI is officially christened a proficiency group – a catchall category for penetrative sex not using the body parts covered by other groups. The recipient is the only one who makes Prowess checks in this situation; modifiers are identical to Penetrative, Toys et al. However, a name with more ring to it is much saught after.*




The difficulty here is that such a name needs to be indicative of the fact that this is a penetrative act, just with other body parts than vaginally. That's pretty specific. I suggest Fetish Penetration, but there probably is a better name out there.

That said, I again want to mention that I think that the "recipient only" part is a bad idea. I know I'm kicking a dead horse here, but this raises some problems that haven't yet been dealt with. Namely that the person making the penetration will then never need to have ranks in these proficiencies (unless they also have this done to them), and worse, it means that they are able to do this sex act for "free" as it were, since they don't need to make Prowess rolls for it. This also denies completely that the recipient can be pleasured from NVI, which isn't always the case.


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## Erila of Sune (May 13, 2003)

Well, here's a solution since I think the consensus is that this is very difficult but impossible. 

1)  Treat the 'Alternate Penetrative -- Recieving' as a separate act, as described.

2)  Penetrative is always used whenever giving, but the DC modifiers for alternate orifices are given a flat +20 across the board.  Numbers may need adjustment.


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## Alzrius (May 17, 2003)

While we await the finalization of step one on our conquest of carnal knowledge, here's another listing for the races category:

*Doppelgangers:* Doppelgangers have no inherent sexuality as we understand it. Their ability to change shape, and thusly sex, at will makes questions of homo- or heterosexuality meaningless to them, and they don't consider such labels as applying to them. Instead, these creatures use their ability to read minds to become what a target would find most attractive. They possess the ability to fertilize when in male forms, and can be fertilized when in female forms. Children who were fathered by doppelgangers are of the mother's race as normal. Doppelgangers who become pregnant always give birth to other doppelgangers, however. They must remain in a female form (but not necessarily the same form) throughout their entire pregnancy or suffer a miscarriage, which can be quite painful in later stages of pregnancy.

As a note, I don't have my _Monster Manual_ with me, so I have no idea how much of what I wrote above contradicts the flavor text for doppelgangers.


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## Death By Surfeit (May 17, 2003)

Wotcher,

There's been some confustication with the boards over the last week, so posting has been delayed somewhat. Count this as an interval post; I am squrrelling away at the Extended Mechanics and Alignment/Kinks system as fast as I can - they'll be posted before long, so keep your eyes peeled.

Oh and Alzrius, your monster sexuality descriptions are great, but a little out of sequence. By all means continue along this vein, but perhaps your ideas are best posted when we are covering that topic?

Still awaiting clarification on Core Mechanics. With regards the NVI group, it is one available for use ONLY by the recipient. Exotic proficiencies can be used on someone, but they'd have to perform a separate act themselves to pleasure you back. Yes, theoretically it could be faintly stimulating, but you'd be better placed moving into a position where you can use some alternative proficiencies back on them.

To clarify: NVI is NOT the same as Penetrative. As with my variant on Sodomy (before it was absorbed as a part of NVI), it is used purely for receiving. We may, however, introduce the 'just lie there' rules for it - ie a recipient may make a Prowess roll without ranks back without counting against other uses of Prowess.

Hope you like the adjustments,

DbS


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## Death By Surfeit (May 17, 2003)

*Huzzah!*

Here we go - enclosed below is a complete copy of the Extended Mechanics, including the modified Core Mechanics. As ever, numerous changes have been made under my own impetous, and I hold myself fully accountable for any controversiality or problems that result. Feedback would be very much appreciated, else confirmation of the rules so that we can march ever onward. If Java Girl could step in with some statistics for the new system, we can attune numbers as per necessary (sorry for making your job harder!).

DbS


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## Death By Surfeit (May 17, 2003)

*GUIDE TO UNLAWFUL CARNAL KNOWLEDGE – EXTENDED MECHANICS V1.5.1*

The core mechanics found below are the product of many fruitful imaginations combining over at the EnWorld forums in what began as an editing and resulted in practically a rewrite of the d20 GUCK conversion. The rules below are intended to be homogenous, make reasonable sense and easily fit in to any campaign that would like to use them.

Before people start complaining about the quality of writing, presentation and suchlike, please bear in mind this is purely an accumulation of our work so far – impetuous individuals such as yourselves who could not wait for the full edition should be less picky. The draft copy below was designed to be simple, and as such lack the fancy titles, charts and other commodities that would be expected of the finished product, so don’t complain. Instead, you would be best advised to pop over to the ‘GUCK development forum III’ at the EnWorld forums and mustering whatever ideas, advice and expressions of delight you can come up with.

Cheers,

Death By Surfeit, on behalf of VVrayven, Asher, Sorn, Kolvar, Bastoche, Gez, Anabsterconian, Alzrius et al.

May 2003


*STATUS CONDITIONS*
The following are additions to status conditions as found in Chapter 2 of the DMG. Physical arousal and mental horniness only affect those creatures with an active sexual alignment – constructs, elementals, plants, undead and vermin are immune to the following unless specifically stated otherwise.

PHYSICAL CONDITIONS (AROUSAL)
These conditions overlap (do not stack) with each other; a given character only suffers penalties for the most profound of them. For the purposes of rules text, Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic characters are also considered ‘Aroused’, as Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic are stronger forms of Arousal.

Aroused
Aroused characters are physically aroused and ready for congress, males having become erect and females lubricated. Unless compensated for somehow, any attempts at conventional intercourse without being Aroused beforehand incur a -5 circumstance penalty on the Prowess check. Aroused characters suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate situations, including combat). Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). An Aroused character that is not yet Horny must make a Will save (DC 5) each round or become so. A successful Spot check (DC 15 male, 20 female) will give away this condition in another person.

Peaked
Peaked characters are in a heightened state of arousal; their skin flushes with blood, their heart rate and breathing accelerates and they are on the approach to climax. The vivid sensations coursing through their bodies cause Peaked characters to suffer a -4 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for one minute. When this period expires, characters are Aroused instead. They require a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) to cast spells successfully, and if not Horny require a Will save (DC 10) each round to avoid becoming such. A successful Spot check (DC 5 male, 10 female) will give away this condition in another person.

Climaxed
Climaxed characters are overcome by waves of pleasurable sensation, either held in the rapture of an orgasm or teetering on the cusp of one. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round) unless they can make a Fortitude save (DC 30). If they are successful, they may act as if slowed but with a -8 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions. Spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 30 + spell level) to be successful. The condition is obvious to all onlookers.

Ecstasy
Not all orgasms are equal and these are the best of them: an Ecstatic character is lost to courses of blissful pleasure, lost to the world and held deeply in the rapture of exquisite sensation. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round) unless they can make a Fortitude save (DC 40). If they are successful, they may act as if slowed but with a -16 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions. Spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 40 + spell level) to be successful. The condition is obvious to all onlookers.

MENTAL CONDITIONS (HORNINESS)
These conditions overlap (do not stack) with each other; a given character only suffers penalties for the most profound of them. For the purposes of rules text, Lustful and Delirious characters are also considered ‘Horny’, as Lustful and Sexually Delirious are stronger forms of Horniness. The penalties incurred by arousal and horniness do not stack; a given character only takes one set of arousal penalties and makes one Concentration check for spellcasting, taking the most severe value in each case. A character that is Horny may become Aroused as a free action: this condition lasts as long as they remain Horny, unless maintained by some other means.

Horny
Horny characters are mentally psyched up and raring to go. Characters can typically become Horny by their own discretion unless extenuating circumstances prevail; DMs should feel free to set a Will save in such circumstances.

Unless they can make a Will save (DC 10) for each minute they remain in this state, characters will approach any desirable partners present with advances, regardless of how out-of-place their comments may seem. They need a similar check each round to abstain from sexual activity should the opportunity present itself.

Indecent thoughts cloud the mind of a Horny character, causing them to suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions such as combat), and twice this amount to saves against arousal effects, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). A successful Sense Motive check will give away this condition in another person (DC 20).

Lustful
A Lustful character not only desires sex, they crave it - their mind is consumed by lust and they seek to lose themselves in the sweet dreams of a libido without bounds. Such powerful desire seldom has a mundane basis, and can typically only be brought about by powerful sexcraft, carnal magics or exotic substances.

Unless they can make a Will save (DC 20) each minute they are in this condition, a Lustful character makes moves toward any possible partners, in accordance with their sexual alignment. If rebuffed, characters of evil alignments or low wit may attempt to rape the subjects of their attentions; others are likely to masturbate until they find relief. A successful check allows them to act normally, but with the penalties listed below. Should an opportunity arise, the character needs to make a similar Will save each round to avoid indulging.

Lustful characters suffer a -4 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, and twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Lustfulness typically lasts ten minutes, regardless of circumstances, before residing to Horniness. If the condition is brought about by a spell effect with a fixed duration, Lustfulness lasts that long. Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). A successful Sense Motive check (DC 10) gives away the condition in another person.

Delirious
A Delirious character is beyond the reach of the world and lost in a private world of sensuality, devoid of the will to do anything but satisfy an all-consuming desire for base pleasure. This is not by any means a natural state - only through the machinations of powerful enchantments or by having their Wisdom reduced to 3 or lower whilst aroused can a character enter this state.

Unless the character succeeds in a Will save (DC 30) each round, they are considered Helpless, incapable of taking any action beyond seeking out the nearest source of sexual relief and indulging themselves They lack the awareness to make seduction attempts, instead throwing themselves at whatever looks most satisfying - sexual alignment plays a role where there is a choice of partners, but beyond that a Delirious character will consent to pretty much anything and anyone. They fail any saves they are required to make, and are suggestible as if hypnotised.

If the check is successful, the character may act with a -8 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions (twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor), spellcasting only being possible with a Concentration check (DC 30 + spell level). They will remain in this state until the spell’s duration expires (if the condition was caused by a spell effect), more likely, they pass out through over-exertion. A Delirious character’s condition is obvious to the most casual look.

OTHER CONDITIONS

Unwilling
If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may declare themselves Unwilling as a free action. All arousal and horniness resulting from checks against the character are resisted with an unwilling bonus of between 1 and 20 or more for as long as the condition lasts. Becoming horny negates the benefits of being Unwilling.

Fatigued
In addition to standard penalties to Strength and Dexterity, the DC for Prowess checks to arouse a Fatigued character is increased by 2.

Exhausted
In addition to standard penalties to Strength and Dexterity, the DC for Prowess checks to arouse an Exhausted character is increased by 6. As Exhaustion overlaps Fatigue, only apply the largest penalty of the two.

Recovery
When a male falls from a Climaxed or Ecstatic state, he goes into a period of Recovery. The DC for Prowess checks to arouse him is increased by 8. Recovery overlaps Exhaustion and Fatigue, so only apply the highest penalty of the three. This state lasts for five minutes, or until the character becomes Aroused again.


*THE PROWESS SKILL*
This skill is in addition to the skills normally available to characters, as found in Chapter 3 of the PHB.

PROWESS (Cha)
Use this skill to bewilder your sexual partners with an array of exotic techniques. Prowess is a class skill for all characters.

As with the Perform skill, each rank in Prowess grants you a sexual proficiency, either physical or mental, within which you can apply your rank bonus to checks - you may not apply your Prowess bonus to any application for which you do not have the appropriate proficiency.

For example, three ranks in prowess could allow a character to be proficient with Masturbation (Male), Penetrative (Matrimonial), and DSM  (Domination). These three proficiencies would allow the character to add their +3 rank bonus to a Prowess check; all other proficiencies would be with a +0 instead.

The groups of proficiencies are listed overleaf, alongside a brief description of their nature. Some of these groups are open-ended (with ‘etc.’ after the suggested proficiencies); feel free to concoct your own additions to these proficiency groups, provided they are within the nature of those preceding them.

Special: Regardless of circumstances, it is impossible to take 10 or take 20 on a Prowess check, due to its unpredictable nature.

PROFICIENCIES

Physical Proficiencies:

Caress (By type - Breasts, Erotic Massage, Stroking etc.)
Gentle touches, brushes and strokes of the anatomy.
Aroused +0, Peaked +2, Climaxed +10, Ecstatic +10

Masturbation (Male, Female)
More forceful manipulation of the sexual organs, with some limited stroking of erogenous zones.
Aroused +5, Peaked +0, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +5

NVI (By orifice - Anus, Breasts, Thighs etc.)
Receiving a phallus in a nonvaginal orifice. Used to pleasure the thruster.
Aroused +10, Peaked +2, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +0

Oral (Cunnilingus, Fellatio)
The application of oral sex on women and men, respectively.
Aroused +5, Peaked +0, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +5

Penetrative (By position - Cross, Frontal, Half-facing, Inverted, Matrimonial, Negresse, Rear, Riding, Scissors, Standing etc.)
Vaginal intercourse, separated by specific position.
Aroused +10, Peaked +2, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +0

Toys (By item - Dildos, Fruit, Wands, Wizards' Staffs, etc.)
Similar to masturbation, but with the use of objects.
Aroused +10, Peaked +2, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +0

When a partner is using a Penetrative technique against them, characters always make a Prowess check back, if only by virtue of just lying there (this is regardless of whether or not the partner wishes to). If they do not add their rank bonus to this reflexive roll, this ‘passive’ check is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other Prowess checks they may wish to make that extended round.

Mental Proficiencies:

Bondage (By type - Contortion, Hanging, Inverted, Ties etc.)
5 or more ranks in Use Rope provide a +2 synergy bonus to this proficiency. Subjects may be bound with a successful (DC 10/11) use of this proficiency. They then receive the kink modifiers associated with bondage for further arousal.

DSM (Domination, Submission)
5 or more ranks in Intimidate provide a +2 synergy bonus to the Domination proficiency; 5 or more ranks in Sense Motive provide a +2 synergy bonus to the Submission proficiency. Subjects may be turned on by your dominating or submissive performance with a successful (DC 10/11) use of this proficiency. They then receive the kink modifiers associated with domination or submission (respectively) for further arousal.

Dirty Talk (By approach - Filthy, Sweet, Poetic)
5 or more ranks in Innuendo provide a +2 synergy bonus to this proficiency, and 5 or more ranks in Diplomacy provide an additional +2 bonus; these bonuses stack.

Erotic Dance (By type - Lapdance, Poledance, Striptease, etc.)
5 or more ranks in Perform (dance) provide a +2 synergy bonus to this proficiency. If you incur a single –4 penalty, all people within 30ft with good line of sight may be affected by your check.


THE PROWESS CHECK

Prowess is used to induce a state of physical arousal or mental horniness upon another creature, or even yourself. To do so requires one minute (ten combat rounds) of devoted attention to make a single check.

The Extended Round
Where detail is necessary (such as simultaneous congress and combat), it is best to imagine minute-long ‘extended rounds’ broken up into ten combat rounds each. Prowess checks are declared at the beginning of each extended round, and (unless interrupted) resolved at the end of each.

Within each extended round, the first round may be used to change position, cast a performance-enhancing spell or some other action; this is time in which to prepare for further activity.

Each character must then declare which proficiency they are using, and against whom. Where you have a rank bonus in the proficiency, declare how much of that bonus you are using at this point.

The remaining nine rounds must be spent pleasuring your partner with the proficiency you stated (a full-round action incurring attacks of opportunity). Should you stop during any point in the nine rounds, the check automatically fails. Any circumstance, spell or other effects active for at least five rounds of this period will be included as modifiers to the Prowess check.

At the end of each extended round, work out the effects of Prowess checks against each individual involved, using the modifiers listed on Table 1-03: Prowess Check Modifiers. Consult Table 1-01: Arousal DCs or Table 1-02: Horniness DCs, and adjust the status condition for each character to that appropriate for the highest DC reached.

Where a character has been the subject of multiple Prowess checks, take the highest result as the basic roll. Each further roll sufficient to maintain or raise the character’s arousal or horniness adds +2 to this roll; each one rolling below this deducts –2 instead. Where physical and mental proficiencies have been used on a character, resolve this process for each.

Multiple Partners
It is possible to make physical Prowess checks against multiple partners, provided that they are all within easy reach and you each have sufficient appendages for the task, although a cumulative –4 penalty to all checks made is imposed for each Prowess check after the first. You may not make more checks simultaneously than (1 + your Dexterity modifier).

The tables below show the DC to increase a character’s arousal or horniness according to their present condition, and their gender (male characters use the numbers before the slash, females the number afterward). The highest DC acheived represents the new state of the character. Where the roll fails to acheive any listed DC for the character’s present condition no change takes place, and existing arousal or horniness may expire (according to its duration).

Table 1-01: Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
None -/- 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused -/- 7/9 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked -/- -/- 8/10 16/20 32/40

Table 1-02: Mental Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Horny - Lustful - Delirious
None -/- 10/11 50/55 90/99
Horny -/- 1/1 30/33 70/77
Lustful -/- -/- 10/11 50/55

Table 1-03: Prowess Check Modifiers
Subject Status
-2 when subject of check is Fatigued
-6 when subject of check is Exhausted
-8 when subject of check is in Recovery
Proficiency
-2 unusual proficiency
-5 inappropriate proficiency
-10 very inappropriate proficiency
-4 per additional Prowess check made during extended round
Circumstances
-2 awkward circumstances (eg. in public)
-5 dangerous circumstances (eg. in combat)
Fetishes & Frets
+fetish bonus (according to fetish) when used on a partner with the fetish
-fret penalty (according to fret) when appropriate
Damage
-total damage received in round if subject is not masochistic
+total damage received in round if subject is masochistic
+total damage dealt to partners in round if subject is sadistic
Compatibility
-2 subject is of an unpreferred gender
-5 subject is of an unaccepted gender
-4 subject is of a different creature Type.

Resisting Prowess Checks
Having Prowess checks made against you is not a passive process. When a physical or mental proficiency is used against them, characters are entitled to a Fortitude or Will save respectively to resist the effects. If a character is Unwilling, they will attempt this save against all checks used against them, adding their Unwilling bonus to the result.

This check is only made against mundane Prowess checks; arousal or horniness arising from spells and other supernatural means are resisted as described in the spell or ability descriptions.

Table 1-04: Arousal Resistance DCs
Rise to Aroused DC 10
Rise to Peaked DC 15
Rise to Climaxed DC 20
Rise to Ecstasy DC 25

Table 1-05: Horniness Resistance DCs
Rise to Horny DC 10
Rise to Lustful DC 20
Rise to Delirious DC 30 

Climax and Ecstasy
When a check result indicates that a character has become Climaxed or Ecstatic, the next extended round for them is handled differently, as their partner(s) try to prolong or intensify the character’s rapture. They are in a Climaxed or Ecstatic state for the first round, but thereafter Prowess checks are made against them at the end of each round, to the DCs set out below. Should the checks fail to meet either at these DCs, the character’s arousal immediately resides to Aroused (if female) or None (if male), with no resisting save.

Table 1-06: Extended Climax DCs
Round Climax DC - Ecstasy DC
1st 24/25 - 32/40
2nd 32/30 - 48/50
3rd 40/35 - 64/60
4th 48/40 - 80/70 
5th 56/45 - 96/80
6th 64/50 – 112/90
7th 72/55 – 128/100
8th 80/60 – 144/110
9th 88/65 – 160/120

Sexual Fatigue
Undergoing climax is exhausting both mentally and physically, and as such characters are limited to how long they can remain in this state. For both genders, each round spent in Climax does 1 point of temporary Wisdom damage, whilst each round spent in Ecstasy does 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage as a result of mental fatigue. Physical faitgue is as follows:

Male characters can sustain (1 + Con bonus) rounds of Climax or one round of Ecstasy before becoming Fatigued. Once Fatigued, they can sustain (1 + Con bonus) rounds of Climax or one round of Ecstasy before becoming Exhausted. Furthermore, once they have dropped from a state of Climax or Ecstasy, they go into a state of Recovery.

Female characters can sustain (1 + Con bonus) rounds of Climax or one round of Ecstasy before becoming Fatigued. Once Fatigued, they can sustain (Con score) rounds of Climax or one round of Ecstasy before becoming Exhausted.

Whilst a character is Exhausted, becoming Climaxed inflicts a points of subdual damage equal to their character’s HD. Becoming Ecstatic whilst Exhausted inflicts enough subdual damage to render a character unconscious, plus a further points equal to a character’s HD.


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## Death By Surfeit (May 17, 2003)

SIZE MATTERS
So the saying goes, and with the myriad of diverse species of the Great Wheel are concerned, it becomes an ever more significant factor. When using a Penetrative, Sodomy, Toys or similar technique, compare the size of the phallus to the orifice concerned and consult the table below for the effects to the recipient.

The owner of the phallus may also be damaged – where the difference is one-and-a-half size categories or more, the owner of the phallus receives damage as if the difference was one size category than it actually is.

Note that although larger phalli give bonuses to Prowess checks, the damage caused makes the check harder – in most cases, it’s best to have an even match.

Smaller still: Fruitless. No appreciable sensation of any kind.
Two sizes smaller: Pathetic. Both Prowess checks incur a -8 size penalty. When using the Soft Focus rules, this penalty is reduced to -4.
One and a half sizes smaller: Dismal. Both Prowess checks incur a -6 size penalty. When using the Soft Focus rules, this penalty is reduced to -3.
One size smaller: Disappointing. Both Prowess checks incur a -4 size penalty. When using the Soft Focus rules, this penalty is reduced to -2.
Half a size smaller: Weak. Both Prowess checks incur a -2 size penalty. When using the Soft Focus rules, this penalty is reduced to -1.
Same size: No special rules.
Half a size larger: Chunky. Both Prowess checks gain a +2 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of subdual damage each turn, unless they can succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 10): work affairs out hard-focus in case of incurring unconsciousness (!).
One size larger: Dangerous. Both Prowess checks gain a +4 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of subdual damage for each Hit Dice they possess each turn. A successful Fortitude save (DC: 10 + partner’s HD) reduces this to just one point per turn. Apply hard-focus rules, as unconsciousness is likely.
One and a half sizes larger: Perilous. Both Prowess checks gain a +6 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of subdual damage for each Hit Dice they possess each turn. A successful Fortitude save (DC: 15 + partner’s HD) reduces this to just one point per turn. Apply hard-focus rules, as unconsciousness is likely.
Two sizes larger: Lethal. Both Prowess checks gain a +8 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of actual damage for each Hit Dice they possess each turn. A successful Fortitude save (DC: 20 + partner’s HD) reduces this to subdual damage. Use hard focus rules: affairs are likely to be very brief.
Larger still: All pain, no gain. Concerted attempts simply incur damage as if two sizes larger: see above.

*A VERY SOCIAL ART*
Noteworthy performances can result in NPC attitude changes, allowing you to sleep your way to success if necessary. A given character can only have their attitude shifted by one performance at a time; the attitude changes overlap (do not stack). These alignment changes are not permanent; they are the result of emotional attachment, and your own actions may negate this bonus as the DM sees fit.

It is possible to shift a person’s attitude beyond those listed on page XX of the DMG with a particularly good performance. A person whose attitude is shifted one rank above Helpful is considered charmed, two ranks is considered dominated and four considered enthralled, all as the spells and powers of the same name.

Measuring Gratification

Whenever a character Climaxes, they receive gratification points. As shown on Table 1-07: Climax Gratification, below, these are accumulated over the course of an extended round in which a character Climaxes. These scores are cumulative – a character that is Ecstatic in the first round and Climaxed in the second and third gains 2+2+3 =7 points of gratification, for example. These gratification points are kept as a running total; at the end of a session of sexual activity, consult Table 1-08: Total Gratification for each character to see what kind of experience they have had. Descriptions of each, and their game effects, are listed overleaf – players are encouraged to role-play any attitude changes their characters undergo.

Table 1-07: Climax Gratification
Round	Climaxed / Ecstatic
1st	1 /2
2nd	2/4
3rd	3/6
4th	4/8
5th	5/10
6th	6/12
7th	7/14
8th	8/16
9th	9/18
10th	10/20

Table 1-08: Total Gratification
Points	Experience	Temporary/Permanent attitude change
0 Disappointing experience –1/0
1 Satisfactory experience 0/0
2 Enjoyable experience +1/0
4 Memorable experience +1/+1
8 Fantastic experience +2/+1
16 Extraordinary experience +2/+2
32 Heavenly experience +3/+2
64 Rapturous experience +3/+3

Disappointing experience - You have failed reach satisfaction, leaving you yearning for more with little place to turn to. Your frustration manifests as a negative attitude change (from Neutral to Unfriendly, for example) toward your partner(s) for the next week.

Satisfactory experience - You have achieved satisfaction, and that is always good, as we all know. But it was nothing remarkable.

Enjoyable experience - Your partner has exhibited a bit more flair than the standard lover, and the experience has certainly benefited as a result. You experiences one positive attitude change (from Neutral to Friendly, for example) toward your partners for the next day.

Memorable experience – The joy you have experienced will serve as a delightful memory for some time. You experience one positive attitude change (from Neutral to Friendly, for example) toward your partner(s). Characters showing this level of flair may develop a local reputation as a good lover.

Fantastic experience - Even the most jaded of lovers would be impressed by the wondrous encounter you’ve undergone. You experience two positive attitude changes (from Neutral to Helpful, for example) toward your partner(s) for the next day, and one positive attitude change thereafter. Characters showing this level of flair may garner a regional reputation as a lover of some note.

Extraordinary experience – This numbers amongst your most treasured experiences, leaving you with blissful memories you’ll retain for the rest of your life. You experience two positive attitude changes (from Neutral to Helpful, for example) toward your partner(s). Characters showing this level of flair may have their reputation as a lover spread nationwide, given time.

Heavenly experience - Things were done in the bedroom that are the stuff of legends and ribald pornographic etchings! The gods and goddesses of pleasure would be proud of you. In time, your blissful endeavours may incite them to make contact in person! You experience three positive attitude changes (from Neutral to charmed, for example) toward your partner(s) for the next day, and two positive attitude changes thereafter.

Rapturous experience - You have been utterly consumed your partner(s)’ attentions and their pleasurous abilities have touched your very soul. Your acts arise as a beacon to the sensual gods above, drawing your presence ever closer to them. You experience three positive attitude changes (from Neutral to charmed, for example) toward your partner(s) from now on.

*EXOTIC FEATS*
These are in addition to the normal feats available to characters, as found in Chapter 4 of the PHB.

BODY TO DIE FOR (General)
You beauty is otherworldy - the mere sight of your body drives potential partners wild.
Prerequisites: Sex Appeal, Cha 17+
Benefit: By acting provocatively (a move-equivalent action), your sumptuous form acts as a gaze attack – all creatures of compatible sexual alignment within 30ft. must pass a Will save (DC:10 + Cha modifier) of become Horny. Characters may attempt to look away as usual.
Special: Your body’s shape must be clearly visible; you may not benefit from this feat whilst wearing armour or bulky clothing of any kind. By foregoing clothing entirely (rings, necklaces and other jewellery may still be worn), this ability is constantly active.

BULLETPROOF BEAUTY (General)
Your gorgeous form drives opponents to the point of distraction.
Prerequisites: Sex Appeal, Body to Die For, Cha 21+
Benefit: You may add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to AC, even when flat-footed or immobilised. This bonus does not stack with a monk’s Wisdom bonus.
Special: Your body’s shape must be clearly visible; you may not benefit from this feat whilst wearing any significant amount of clothing, let alone armour. By foregoing clothing entirely (jewellery may still be worn), you can impose a morale penalty equal to your Charisma modifier on all melee attacks against you from creatures of compatible sexual alignment.

COITAL CASTING (General)
Your physical arousal only improves your spellcasting abilities.
Prerequisites: Coital Concentration, 8 or more ranks in Prowess, 12 or more ranks in Concentration
Benefit: When you succeed at the Concentration check to ignore penalties for arousal, you may add your arousal penalty instead as an arousal bonus to the DCs of all your sensual spells.

COITAL CONCENTRATION (General)
You remain focused even whilst physically aroused.
Prerequisites: Sensual spellcaster, 4 or more ranks in Prowess, 6 or more ranks in Concentration
Benefit: With a successful Concentration check (DC 10 Aroused, 20 Peaked, 30 Climaxed, 40 Ecstatic), you may act normally, ignoring all penalties for physical arousal.
Normal: Arousal infers penalties on skill checks, attack rolls and saves. Spells require Concentration checks to cast successfully. Unless a Fortitude save can be passed, Climaxed or Ecstatic characters are considered helpless.

CONDUCTIVE KISS (Metapsionic)
You may disguise your powers as a passionate kiss.
Prerequisites: Ability to manifest telepathy powers
Benefit: By kissing an opponent (an attack-equivalent grapple action), you can ease the linking of minds that is the foundation of telepathy powers. The spells no have ‘Kiss’ range and affect only the creature kissed, but are affected as if by the Hide Power (all displays) metapsionic feats, regardless of whether you possess them.

DIVINE RAPTURE (Divine)
You may manifest your god’s power as raw sensual energy.
Prerequisites: Ability to turn/rebuke undead, ability to channel positive energy.
Benefit: By expending one of your turn/rebuke attempts, you may smite living foes with carnal power. Roll the turning check and damage roll as normal to determine who you can affect; each has a Prowess check made against them (d20 + Cha modifer; no ranks may be applied to this roll).

FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM (Carnal Art)
Your experience encompasses the many techniques of this exclusive Carnal Art.
Prerequisite: Int 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier before resting.

IMMACULATE FORMS OF THE MASTER (Carnal Art)
You have been taught under the school of master Weil Hung.
Prerequisite: Str 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Strength modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Strength modifier before resting.

IMPROVED ENDURANCE (General)
Your sexual abilities allow you to resist stimulation better.
Prerequisite: Endurance, 1 or more ranks in Prowess
Benefit: You may add your ranks in Prowess to Fortitude saves to resist Arousal effects.
Normal: Mundane changes in Arousal may be resisted with a Fortitude save; magical effects may be resisted as explained in the spell description.

IRON CELIBACY (General)
Your powers of self-control are astounding with regard to sexual matters; your resolve in celibacy protects you from the attentions of others and the insidious effects of sensual magic.
Prerequisites: Iron Will, Abstinent sexual alignment
Benefit: You gain a Will save to ignore the effects of a successful Bluff (seduction) or Prowess check on you (DC: check result). This stacks with any other opportunities to resist seduction or arousal. You gain Spell Resistance equal to your character level plus your Wisdom modifier against spells with the [Libido-Affecting] or [Arousal] descriptors.
Special: If the character willingly engages in any form of sexual activity, the effects of this feat are suspended until a character Atones (see Atonement, PHB).

LORE OF THE TANTRIC ANCIENTS (Carnal Art)
You have researched the teachings of the ancient Tantric school.
Prerequisite: Wis 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier before resting.

MASSIVELY HUNG (General)
You are more than well hung for your race.
Prerequisites: Must be male, must be taken at 1st level
Benefit: Your phallus is half a size category larger than usual for your race (eg. a halfling could count as a small-and-a-half-size partner, or an orc Large).
Special: Certain individual races already count as larger than a normal member (unintended) of their size category; if they gain this feat, the circumstances stack (ouch).

PSIONIC CARESS (Psionic)
Your touch delivers surges of sensual pleasure to your target’s brain.
Prerequisite: Psionic Touch, Cha 13+
Benefit: If pay the cost of 1 power point beforehand, your hand becomes ‘charged’ with potent carnal energy. If you succeed with a melee touch attack against a target, you may make an immediate Prowess check, with all suitable modifiers. Your hand remains charged until you touch the target, else for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.
Special: If used in addition to a normal Arousal check, this skill allows you two attempts to stimulate a partner each turn.

SEX APPEAL (General)
Your appearance is particularly alluring to the opposite sex.
Prerequisite: Cha 13+
Benefit: This feat confers a +2 bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy and Prowess checks against creatures of compatible sexual alignment.

SMOOCH SPELL (Metamagic)
You can bypass opponent’s protection from your spells to resist by delivering them with a kiss.
Benefit: You can prepare any spell with this feat. Doing so decreases the spell’s range to ‘Kiss’, but ignores any Spell Resistance possessed by the spell’s target. In order to deliver this spell, you must kiss the subject of the spell; if the subject is unwilling, the kiss is an attack-equivalent grapple option.

SUBTLE CARESS (General)
Your knowledge of anatomy can be used to induce pleasure as easily as it can inflict pain.
Prerequisites: Sneak attack ability, 12 ranks of Prowess
Benefit: You gain a competance bonus to Prowess equal to your number of dice of sneal attack damage.

TECHNIQUES OF THE HALFLING HARLOT (Carnal Art)
You are privy to the Techniques of the Halfling Harlot, as passed down by the trade throughout the ages.
Prerequisite: Con 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Constitution modifier before resting.

TRICKS OF THE IMPROVISO (Carnal Art)
You have studied the Naughtie Works of the legendary gnome Arcanalist.
Prerequisite: Int 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier before resting.

TRUE LOVE (General)
You are truly, madly, deeply in love with someone else.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You may make a Will save to negate the effect of a Bluff (seduction) check made against you by anyone other than your true love – the same Will save may be made to negate any compulsion to hurt (physically, mentally or emotionally) your true love. If the love is reciprocal (that is, both people take the feat), you may double bonuses for flanking and skill cooperation when working with your true love.
Special: You really do have to be in love with another: unless you act accordingly, this feat is rendered useless until your differences are made up. And yes, it is possible (although hard) to take this feat multiple times, each relating to a different individual.

VETERAN’S KNACK (Carnal Art)
You have picked up a few tricks from sexual experience.
Prerequisite:3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the maneouvres of this Art a number of times equal to your ranks in Prowess divided by three (round down) before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your ranks in Prowess divided by three (round down) before resting.


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## Death By Surfeit (May 17, 2003)

*CARNAL ARTS*
Carnal arts are positions, maneouvres which enhance your sexual prowess in new and interesting ways. Each of the Arts is linked to a key ability score - the higher your score, the more useful it will be to you.

In order for you to gain access to an Art, you must take the relevant feat. Once this is taken, you may use the Art’s techniques a number of times equal to the appropriate ability score (or more, if you take the feat multiple times). More and more different techniques become available as you progress in levels of Prowess, in much the same manner that more and more applications of bardic music become available when a bard goes up ranks in Perform.

When a character tries to use a maneouvre beyond their allocated uses for the day, they immediately incur Sexual Fatigue as if they had just Climaxed.

Descriptions of each maneouvre’s effects, when they can be activated and when they expire are listed below for the seven core carnal arts. Unless specifically stated otherwise, a character may end the effects of any maneouvre as a free action.

IMMACULATE FORMS OF THE MASTER
Before arising to become the Master of the Immaculate Forms, Weil-Hung lived a life of monastic seclusion, of quiet contemplation and iron discipline. It is against these principles that he rebelled - it is Weil-Hung’s dogma that life is best experienced by really _living_ - sense achieved by sensuality. After a time of hedonistic travelling, he drew upon his martial prowess and sensual experience to found a school of martial arts that forms a very real war of the sexes.

3 Ranks Prowess - Mating Bull
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Str bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Charging Ram
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to increase the effective size of a phallus they are penetrating someone with by half a size category for the purposes of the Size Matters rules. When the character reaches 12 ranks of Prowess, the size may be increased in such a manner by a whole size category. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Gulping Heron
May be activated before making a Prowess check. A character being penetrated may make a number of additional Prowess checks (Penetrative or NVI proficiencies as appropriate) equal to their Str modifier, taking the highest result. This ability is instantaneous.

12 Ranks Prowess - Squeezing Boa
May be activated when a successful grapple check is made. Allows character to put foe into a special pin in which they may make a Prowess check each extended round against foe, but take no other action. The character may roll a Prowess check instead of a grapple check to resist attempts to escape, but this check does not impose any Arousal or Horniness. This ability lasts until the pin is released.

15 Ranks Prowess - Stinging Cobra
May be activated before making a Prowess check. Should the Prowess check succeed, the partner must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Str mod + 1/2 character’s Hit Dice). If they fail, they are stunned for one round. After one round, they must make another save or be stunned for nine rounds.

FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM
This art was born from the hedonistic aristocracy of Sumfing Oranutha, the noble and the rich who turned their backs on the concerns of the real world in order to immerse themselves in a lifetime of relationships, affairs and, more often than they would like to admit, downright debauchery. The Flowers were their only cultural legacy, a carnal art suited to such a solipsistic life.

3 Ranks Prowess - Courtesan’s Finesse
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Dex bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Love for Many
May be activated as a free action. The character halves penalties for making Prowess checks against multiple partners at once - that is to say that checks are at only -2 for each partner beyond the first. When the character achieves 12 ranks of Prowess, the penalty is removed entirely. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Secret Affair
May be activated as a free action. The character may make Prowess checks using a Caress proficency against a partner that is clothed or even armoured. No penalties apply to making checks against a clothed partner; the partner’s armour penalty applies to any checks made against them. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Love of Many
May be activated before making a Prowess check. By passing a Prowess check (DC 20), the character can apply two proficiencies they know at once against a single partner in a turn. Double their rank bonus, and apply any modifiers relevant to each proficiency (this may result in some modifiers being applied twice). They may instead attempt to apply three maneouvres (Prowess check DC 30), four maneouvres (DC 40) and so on, trebling or quadrupling the rank bonus and applicable modifers as described above. Should the Prowess check fail, they lose their rank bonus to Prowess for this turn. This ability is instantaneous.

15 Ranks Prowess - Open Romance
May be activated as a free action. The character’s partner(s) and onlookers appear unconcerned about wordly matters, losing themselves in the act of passion. All penalties or saves against Prowess checks based on physical circumstances (such as location) and social circumstances (such as prior commitments, vows and relationships) are ignored by the character and any partners they have until they Climax. Should the character break off from the act of passion, the effect will also end.

TECHNIQUES OF THE HALFLING HARLOT
Legends state that the Art of the Halfling Harlot is as old as the profession, which, being the oldest in the world, makes its origins hard to trace indeed. The Art flourishes within the halfling prostitution community, passed down to young escorts as an essential survival skill as much as anything else; outsiders are free to learn it, but its limited application means that they seldom ask.

3 Ranks Prowess - Accomodation
May be activated before testing for damage under the Size Matters rules. The character automatically passes their Fortitude saves to minimise damage under the Size Matters rules. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Relaxation
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to increase the effective size of one of their orifices by half a size category for the purposes of the Size Matters rules. When the character reaches 12 ranks of Prowess, the size may be increased in such a manner by a whole size category. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Selflessness
May be activated at the start of a combat turn, when in a situation where both partners are actively making Prowess checks against each other. For the remainder of this turn, the character may get a bonus of up to twice their Con bonus to their Prowess rolls - all Prowess checks made against the character this turn receive an equal penalty. This ability continues until the character Climaxes, although the penalties taken can be changed each turn.

9 Ranks Prowess - Suffering
May be activated before taking damage as part of sexual congress. For the purposes of any partners or onlookers with the Sadism fetish, treat the damage as the maximum possible incurred (maximum value for damage rolls, treat Fort saves as if they were failed, and so on), regardless of how much is actually dealt. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

15 Ranks Prowess - Melodrama
May be activated as a free action. All partners and onlookers gain the Sadism fetish until they Climax - should the character break off sexual activity, the effects of this maneouvre will also end.

TRICKS OF THE GREAT IMPROVISO
The sad demise of the gnome known only as the Improviso (and, since, the Great Improviso) was recorded less than a hundred years ago. The legendary arcanalist walked the world dabbling in the sensual arts, and his desire to acquire undisclosed knowledge is equalled only by his urge to pass it on - the Naughtie Works of the Improviso has since been etched in more than a dozen languages and circulated across the Great Wheel. For those who can afford the time to study it and the intellect to understand it, the Naughtie Works provide many useful nuggets of information.

3 Ranks Prowess - Imagination
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Int bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Adaptability
May be activated as a free action. The character halves penalties for making Prowess checks against creatures of a different Type - that is to say that such checks are at only -2. When the character achieves 12 ranks of Prowess, the penalty is removed entirely. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Improvisation
May be activated as a free action. The character may apply their Prowess bonus to the use of any proficiency, regardless of whether they are proficient in it or not. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Subtlety
May be activated before beginning a Prowess check using a Caress proficiency. The character making the check is so subtle that the recipient must make a Sense Motive check (DC: Prowess check result) to notice that they are doing so. This may be used to make Prowess checks against a partner that consents to basic bodily contact, provided they remain within 5ft for the course of the extended round - should they pass their check, however, they snatch away and the effect of the Prowess check is negated. This ability lasts for one extended round.

15 Ranks Prowess - Mind Games
May be activated after making a Prowess check against a partner. Unless the partner can resist (See Table 1-05: Resisting Horniness), they are fooled into becoming ever more passionate and their physical Arousal spurns mental Horniness - an Aroused partner also becomes Horny, a Peaked partner also becomes Lustful, and a Climaxed or Ecstatic partner also becomes Delirious. These effects last for as long as the status conditions do, and may not be willingly stopped by the character performing the maneouvre.

LORE OF THE TANTRIC ANCIENTS
Ancient tomes write of the wisdom of a monastic order from ancient times, whose control of body echoed through to a discipline of the mind and purity of spirit. Those few wise individuals that perpetuate the teachings of the tantric ancients welcome new pupils, knowing that with mastery over the body equal control over one’s destiny can be attained.

3 Ranks Prowess - Joy of the Spirit
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Wis bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Humble the Mountain
May be activated after character has been Aroused to Climax. Although all usual effects of the Climaxed state for that round are applied, no sexual fatigue is incurred. Characters undergoing an Ecstatic state instead incur fatigue as if they had merely Climaxed. Once the character attains 12 ranks of Prowess, even the fatigue of an Ecstatic state can be dismissed entirely. This ability is instantaneous.

6 Ranks Prowess - Dam the River
May be activated after a Prowess check is made against the character. Allows the character to automatically succeed in the Fortitude save to resist arousal. This ability is instantaneous.

9 Ranks Prowess - Climb the Mountain
May be activated after character has been aroused to Climax. The check result of the partner is modified to the minimum required to induce an Ecstatic state - apply all effects of this normally. This ability is instantaneous.

15 Ranks Prowess - Swim the River
May be activated at the beginning of a round. The character suffers no ill effect (adverse status conditions, penalties or Concentration checks) for any Arousal or Horniness they possess. Where relevant, bonuses still apply, as do penalties from sexual fatigue incurred. This ability lasts one turn.

ART OF THE IMMORTAL NYMPH
The greatest and most glamorous of courtesans pass around a group of postures, techniques and mindsets that serve only to enhance their natural charm. Only those demonstrating professionalism in attitude and prowess are deigned suitable to acquire such knowledge - the Art is seldom acquired outside of the Courtesans’ Guild.

3 Ranks Prowess - Encapsulating Touch
May be activated before making a Prowess check. If the check is successful, the partner against whom the check was made automatically fails any Concentration checks incurred because of Arousal. This ability lasts one round.

6 Ranks Prowess - Dreamlike Presence
May be activated as a free action. Passionate exploits with the character take on a surreal edge - any partner or onlooker halves (round down) one penalty incurred due to differing sexual alignment or frets (character’s decision). Should the character acquire 12 ranks in Prowess, one penalty may be totally negated instead. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Beatific Presence
May be activated as a free action. All creatures of compatible sexual alignment within 30ft who are experiencing Horniness develop Arousal, as even the form of the character is enough to induce massive pleasure. Horny characters become Aroused, Lusftful characters become Peaked, and Ecstatic characters become Climaxed. This is treated as a gaze attack, with no save. This ability is instantaneous.

9 Ranks Prowess - Irresistable Touch
May be activated before making a Prowess check. The recipient is not allowed their usual Fortitude save to resist Arousal or their Will save to resist Horniness. Any other protection against Prowess checks, such as the bonus Will save conferred by Iron Celibacy, still apply. This ability is instantaneous.

15 Ranks Prowess - Monumental Presence
May be activated after a session of sexual activity. The bonus attitude change resulting from the Very Social Art rules is irrevocable - although their fundamental attitude may become more unfriendly (or even hostile), the sweet memories ensure that the attitude modifer from their time together still applies. This ability is permanent.

VETERAN’S KNACK
Not all of the finest lovers are privy to the secrets of enigmatic organisations and long-forgotten teachers. This Carnal Art represents the accuulation of techniques from extensive experience, and readily learnt by anyone who is practiced enough with their sensual skills. Instead of the normal progression, a character may learn one maneouvre whose prerequisites they meet when they reach 3, 6, 9,12 and 15 ranks of Prowess.

Requires 3 Ranks Prowess – Endurance
Each time you select this maneouvre, you gain one of the effects below permanently:
Withstand 2 orgasms before fatigue (male only).
Withstand 1+ (2 x Con bonus) orgasms before fatigue (female only).
Withstand 1+ (2 x Con bonus) orgasms before exhuastion (male only).
Withstand (Con score + Con bonus) orgasms before exhaustion (female only).

Requires 3 Ranks Prowess – Withdrawal
May be used after a male character becomes Climaxed. When using the withdrawal method to avoid pregnancy, you have a 75% chance to avert any chance of conception. When both partners use this maneouvre, chances increase to 100%. This ability is instantaneous.

Requires 6 Ranks Prowess – Resilience
May be activated after failing a Fortitude check to resist Arousal. You gain an additional Fortitude check to resist Arousal – should this check fail, you may use this maneouvre additional times to confer more bonus saves. This ability is instananeous.

Requires 6 Ranks Prowess - Selfishness
May be activated at the start of a combat turn, when in a situation where both partners are actively making Prowess checks against each other. For the remainder of this turn, Prowess checks made against the character may get a bonus of up to +5 - all Prowess checks made by the character this turn receive an equal penalty. This ability continues until the character Climaxes, although the penalties taken can be changed each turn.

Requires 9 Ranks Prowess – Forestall
May be activiated after making a successful Prowess check. Instead of changing your partner’s Arousal level to the highest DC reached, you may choose any status whose DC you have exceeded. This ability is instantaneous.

Requires 9 Ranks Prowess – Still Standing (male only)
May be activated after falling from a Climaxed state. The character is still Aroused, although the –8 recovery penalty still applies until a successful Prowess check is made against them.

Requires 9 Ranks Prowess – Staggering (females only)
May be activated after reaching a Climaxed state. For the next extended round, your Arousal DCs replace those usually found on Table 1-06: Extended Climax DCs as follows:

Table 1-09: Staggering Extended Climax DCs
Round Climax DC/Ecstatic DC
1st 25/40
2nd 28/45
3rd 30/50
4th 32/55
5th 35/60
6th 38/65
7th 40/70
8th 42/75
9th 45/80
10th 48/85

THAT’S ALL FOLKS
Comments, suggestions, recommendations etc. are as welcomly received as ever.


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## Death By Surfeit (May 17, 2003)

As an aside, we can minimise the impact of similar board-based catastrophes by remaining in email contact. I won't ask anyone to post addresses, but if the contributors could email me at deathbysurfeit@hotmail.com, I'll keep a record of your addresses.

Thankyou.


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## Alzrius (May 18, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *Oh and Alzrius, your monster sexuality descriptions are great, but a little out of sequence. By all means continue along this vein, but perhaps your ideas are best posted when we are covering that topic?*




I thought of that when I was posting this last one, but it's better for me to post them here now. I don't have a computer of my own, and I've lost info on disks too often to trust them, and my email account deletes mails older than a month. In essence, its a "now or never" thing, since I can't record these. At least this way, when we get there, we can cycle through the old threads to find them again. It's mildly ironic that you should say that though since I thought of these entries all at once, and doppelgangers were the last one to do. 



> *With regards the NVI group, it is one available for use ONLY by the recipient. Exotic proficiencies can be used on someone, but they'd have to perform a separate act themselves to pleasure you back. Yes, theoretically it could be faintly stimulating, but you'd be better placed moving into a position where you can use some alternative proficiencies back on them.*




Well, I disagree (and so does that guy who didn't realize the last thread on this is closed), but if that's the word from the top...that's that then.



> *We may, however, introduce the 'just lie there' rules for it - ie a recipient may make a Prowess roll without ranks back without counting against other uses of Prowess.*




That does seem like a good idea.


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## VVrayven (May 18, 2003)

:: Mmmm... ::streches::

Wow! DbS, you have been SO busy! ::blows a kiss:: Great work!

And so I got to work, as you can see in my following post.

On the open issues:

1) I love your rework of my art and the name "Veteran's Knack" Let's go with it!

2) NVI... Alright. I love the category and the description, but if it is possible to give someone an orgasm using Caress(thigh) or Caress(Arm) I think we should allow NVI to pleasure the non-thuster... How? Well I'm not sure. I'd say allow the proficiency to go both ways. (if you are a girl and take NVI-Breasts, it's how to pleasure him, if you are a guy and take NVI-Breasts, it's how to get her off through NVI via the breasts....) Make it work just like any other reciprical prof. And I would go with the following modifiers:

Thruster (to pleasure the reciever)
Aroused +5, Peaked +10, Climaxed +15, Ecstatic +20

Non-Thruster (to pleasure the thruster)
Aroused +10, Peaked +2, Climaxed +0, Ecstatic +0

Just my thoughts. Let me know what you all think.


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## VVrayven (May 18, 2003)

Java Girl is back! <giggle>

Okies! Here we go:

The Following Three Runs are done with the AI set to stop at ONE male climax:

Two Commoners (+0 prowess, 10 Con, level 1)

Average Total Time:            19.054118
Average Foreplay Time:         3.12469
Average Intercourse Time:      15.929428
Female Climax Percentage:      53.8791%
Male Climax Percentage:        100.0%
Average Female Orgasms         0.538791
Average Male Orgasms           1.0
Average Female Gratification   0.538791
Average Male Gratification     1.0
Highest Female Gratification   1.0
Highest Male Gratification     1.0
Average Female Fatigue Status  0.538791
Average Male Fatigue Status    1.0
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 0.0%
Average Male Pass-Out Chance   0.0%

Two Experienced Commoners (+3 prowess, 10 Con, level 1)

Average Total Time:            11.502645
Average Foreplay Time:         2.252602
Average Intercourse Time:      9.250043
Female Climax Percentage:      86.7592%
Male Climax Percentage:        100.0%
Average Female Orgasms         1.015708
Average Male Orgasms           1.0
Average Female Gratification   1.102631
Average Male Gratification     1.0
Highest Female Gratification   9.0
Highest Male Gratification     1.0
Average Female Fatigue Status  0.867592
Average Male Fatigue Status    1.0
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 0.0%
Average Male Pass-Out Chance   0.0%

Two Skilled Lovers (+6 total prowess, 12 Con, level 2)

Average Total Time:            8.440612
Average Foreplay Time:         1.770205
Average Intercourse Time:      6.670407
Female Climax Percentage:      95.05839999999999%
Male Climax Percentage:        100.0%
Average Female Orgasms         1.526699
Average Male Orgasms           1.0
Average Female Gratification   1.882486
Average Male Gratification     1.0
Highest Female Gratification   13.0
Highest Male Gratification     1.0
Average Female Fatigue Status  0.485516
Average Male Fatigue Status    1.0
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 0.0%
Average Male Pass-Out Chance   0.0%

Two Expert Lovers (+10 total prowess, 14 Con, level 6)

Average Total Time:            6.58527
Average Foreplay Time:         1.338711
Average Intercourse Time:      5.246559
Female Climax Percentage:      95.2554%
Male Climax Percentage:        100.0%
Average Female Orgasms         1.907764
Average Male Orgasms           1.0
Average Female Gratification   2.744898
Average Male Gratification     1.0
Highest Female Gratification   18.0
Highest Male Gratification     1.0
Average Female Fatigue Status  0.248498
Average Male Fatigue Status    1.0
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 0.0%
Average Male Pass-Out Chance   0.0%

The Following Three Runs are done with the AI set to go until someone passes out:
(Please bear in mind this is with no breaks, so sixty rounds means 1 hour straight, not stopping)


Two Expert Lovers (+10 total prowess, 14 Con, level 6)

Average Total Time:            68.316333
Average Foreplay Time:         8.055155
Average Intercourse Time:      60.261178
Female Climax Percentage:      100.0%
Male Climax Percentage:        100.0%
Average Female Orgasms         16.644892
Average Male Orgasms           9.953526
Average Female Gratification   23.264213
Average Male Gratification     13.599958
Highest Female Gratification   45.0
Highest Male Gratification     19.0
Average Female Fatigue Status  1.62739
Average Male Fatigue Status    2.969937
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 3.2583%
Average Male Pass-Out Chance   96.9937%
Average Double Pass-Out Chance 0.252%

Two Amazing Lovers (+15 total prowess, 16 Con, level 10)

Average Total Time:            59.380055
Average Foreplay Time:         7.935679
Average Intercourse Time:      51.444376
Female Climax Percentage:      100.0%
Male Climax Percentage:        100.0%
Average Female Orgasms         23.460807
Average Male Orgasms           14.760692
Average Female Gratification   39.577479
Average Male Gratification     23.844585
Highest Female Gratification   70.0
Highest Male Gratification     33.0
Average Female Fatigue Status  1.952498
Average Male Fatigue Status    2.94414
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 6.3797999999999995%
Average Male Pass-Out Chance   94.414%
Average Double Pass-Out Chance 0.7938000000000001%

Two Master Lovers (+20 total prowess, 16 Con, level 15)

Average Total Time:            43.293701
Average Foreplay Time:         6.804804
Average Intercourse Time:      36.488897
Female Climax Percentage:      100.0%
Male Climax Percentage:        100.0%
Average Female Orgasms         24.123492
Average Male Orgasms           16.014336
Average Female Gratification   49.668675
Average Male Gratification     30.420586
Highest Female Gratification   94.0
Highest Male Gratification     51.0
Average Female Fatigue Status  1.816808
Average Male Fatigue Status    2.955952
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 5.18%
Average Male Pass-Out Chance   95.5952%
Average Double Pass-Out Chance 0.7752%

And Now Two special cases just for fun:

Female Sex DemiGoddess (+35 total prowess, +15 Fort Save, level 20)
Male Lover of Awesome Renown (+25 prowess, +12 Fort Save, level 18)

Average Total Time:            18.011394
Average Foreplay Time:         2.908265
Average Intercourse Time:      15.103129
Female Climax Percentage:      100.0%
Male Climax Percentage:        100.0%
Average Female Orgasms         12.718888
Average Male Orgasms           9.864352
Average Female Gratification   32.686975
Average Male Gratification     29.034512
Highest Female Gratification   120.0
Highest Male Gratification     81.0
Average Female Fatigue Status  1.228316
Average Male Fatigue Status    2.949001
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 3.6615%
Average Male Pass-Out Chance   96.3422%
Average Double Pass-Out Chance 0.0036999999999999997%

And...

The Amazing Lover-Bard (+16 Prowess, +10 Fort Save, level 10)
The Farmer's Virgin Daughter (+0 Prowess, +0 Fort Save, level 1)

Average Total Time:            28.365296
Average Foreplay Time:         1.982567
Average Intercourse Time:      26.382729
Female Climax Percentage:      100.0%
Male Climax Percentage:        35.6512%
Average Female Orgasms         12.0
Average Male Orgasms           0.42567
Average Female Gratification   20.553188
Average Male Gratification     0.479759
Highest Female Gratification   33.0
Highest Male Gratification     7.0
Average Female Fatigue Status  3.0
Average Male Fatigue Status    0.356518
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 100.0%
Average Male Pass-Out Chance   0.0%

Note this program does not take into account the Wisdom loss or the Deilerious condition. Althought neither of these will change the numbers, I still want them calculated and thus you will see statistics on them in the next version run of the program.

Now, what do these numbers tell us.

1. We have an AWESOME SYSTEM that does a GREAT approximation of real sex.

2. We have a HUGE disgrenpancy between male and female gratification scores. Ideas anyone?

3. A +16 prowess has an upper gratifiction limit of about 33 (for females). This brings up a very valid concern: High gratifaction scores can only be attained if the partner has both a high Constitution and a Fort Save (prowess has nothing to do with it, in the partner). Thus, you can only get a uber high gratification yourself if you are high level yourself. I.E. if the best lover in the world find a young novice to seduce, he can't please her any better than the second best lover, or the third...

That is all for the statistics.  Have a nice day boys.


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## VVrayven (May 18, 2003)

For those of you that are interested, here is a segment of the program run in <detail mode>. 

Both of the partners are tired (Exhausted, and have already been in engaged for about 45 minutes.

Round 46

Male: S(3) O(10) F(2) G(19)

Female: S(2) O(22) F(2) G(46)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (7) Final Prowess = (25)

Prowess: Female rolls a (9) Final Prowess = (27)

Pleasure: Final roll = 21

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Male has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Pleasure: Final roll = 19

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (2) and is now (2)

Climax: Male has reached climax. Gratification: 2 Total (21)

Round 47

Male: S(3) O(11) F(2) G(21)

Female: S(2) O(22) F(2) G(46)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (13) Final Prowess = (31)

Prowess: Female rolls a (8) Final Prowess = (26)

Pleasure: Final roll = 20

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (3) and is now (0)

Recover: Male entering recovery, 10 minutes start.

Pleasure: Final roll = 25

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (2) and is now (3)

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (47)

Round 48

Male: S(0) O(11) F(2) G(21)

Female: S(3) O(23) F(2) G(47)

Running Foreplay (Male Only)

Prowess: Male rolls a (8) Final Prowess = (26)

Prowess: Female rolls a (1) Final Prowess = (19)

Pleasure: Final roll = 20

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (0) and is now (1)

Recover: Male exiting recovery period, became aroused.

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (48)

Round 49

Male: S(1) O(11) F(2) G(21)

Female: S(3) O(24) F(2) G(48)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (17) Final Prowess = (35)

Prowess: Female rolls a (9) Final Prowess = (27)

Pleasure: Final roll = 21

Resist: Male rolls a (8) Final Fort Save = (18/15) SUCCESS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (1) and is now (1)

Pleasure: Final roll = 29

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Female has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 2 Total (50)

Round 50

Male: S(1) O(11) F(2) G(21)

Female: S(3) O(25) F(2) G(50)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (2) Final Prowess = (20)

Prowess: Female rolls a (2) Final Prowess = (20)

Pleasure: Final roll = 14

Resist: Male rolls a (6) Final Fort Save = (16/0) SUCCESS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (1) and is now (1)

Pleasure: Final roll = 14

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (3) and is now (0)

Recover: Female coming down from orgasm

Round 51

Male: S(1) O(11) F(2) G(21)

Female: S(1) O(25) F(2) G(50)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (16) Final Prowess = (34)

Prowess: Female rolls a (2) Final Prowess = (20)

Pleasure: Final roll = 14

Resist: Male rolls a (5) Final Fort Save = (15/0) SUCCESS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (1) and is now (1)

Pleasure: Final roll = 28

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (1) and is now (2)

Round 52

Male: S(1) O(11) F(2) G(21)

Female: S(2) O(25) F(2) G(50)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (2) Final Prowess = (20)

Prowess: Female rolls a (19) Final Prowess = (37)

Pleasure: Final roll = 31

Resist: Male rolls a (5) Final Fort Save = (15/20) FAILS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (1) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Final roll = 14

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (2) and is now (2)

Climax: Male has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (22)

Round 53

Male: S(3) O(12) F(2) G(22)

Female: S(2) O(25) F(2) G(50)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (13) Final Prowess = (31)

Prowess: Female rolls a (9) Final Prowess = (27)

Pleasure: Final roll = 21

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Male has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Pleasure: Final roll = 25

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (2) and is now (3)

Climax: Male has reached climax. Gratification: 2 Total (24)

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (51)

Round 54

Male: S(3) O(13) F(2) G(24)

Female: S(3) O(26) F(2) G(51)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (12) Final Prowess = (30)

Prowess: Female rolls a (4) Final Prowess = (22)

Pleasure: Final roll = 16

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (3) and is now (0)

Recover: Male entering recovery, 10 minutes start.

Pleasure: Final roll = 24

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Female has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 2 Total (53)

Round 55

Male: S(0) O(13) F(2) G(24)

Female: S(3) O(27) F(2) G(53)

Running Foreplay (Male Only)

Prowess: Male rolls a (20) Final Prowess = (38)

Prowess: Female rolls a (17) Final Prowess = (35)

Pleasure: Final roll = 32

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (0) and is now (2)

Recover: Male exiting recovery period, became aroused.

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 2 Total (55)

Round 56

Male: S(2) O(13) F(2) G(24)

Female: S(3) O(28) F(2) G(55)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (2) Final Prowess = (20)

Prowess: Female rolls a (2) Final Prowess = (20)

Pleasure: Final roll = 14

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (2) and is now (2)

Pleasure: Final roll = 14

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (3) and is now (0)

Recover: Female coming down from orgasm

Round 57

Male: S(2) O(13) F(2) G(24)

Female: S(1) O(28) F(2) G(55)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (18) Final Prowess = (36)

Prowess: Female rolls a (1) Final Prowess = (19)

Pleasure: Final roll = 13

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (2) and is now (2)

Pleasure: Final roll = 30

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (1) and is now (2)

Round 58

Male: S(2) O(13) F(2) G(24)

Female: S(2) O(28) F(2) G(55)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (8) Final Prowess = (26)

Prowess: Female rolls a (6) Final Prowess = (24)

Pleasure: Final roll = 18

Resist: Male rolls a (2) Final Fort Save = (12/20) FAILS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (2) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Final roll = 20

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (2) and is now (3)

Climax: Male has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (25)

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (56)

Round 59

Male: S(3) O(14) F(2) G(25)

Female: S(3) O(29) F(2) G(56)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (19) Final Prowess = (37)

Prowess: Female rolls a (13) Final Prowess = (31)

Pleasure: Final roll = 25

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Male has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Pleasure: Final roll = 31

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Female has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Climax: Male has reached climax. Gratification: 2 Total (27)

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 2 Total (58)

Round 60

Male: S(3) O(15) F(2) G(27)

Female: S(3) O(30) F(2) G(58)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (18) Final Prowess = (36)

Prowess: Female rolls a (14) Final Prowess = (32)

Pleasure: Final roll = 26

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Male has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Pleasure: Final roll = 30

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Female has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Climax: Male has reached climax. Gratification: 3 Total (30)

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 3 Total (61)

Round 61

Male: S(3) O(16) F(2) G(30)

Female: S(3) O(31) F(2) G(61)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (16) Final Prowess = (34)

Prowess: Female rolls a (3) Final Prowess = (21)

Pleasure: Final roll = 15

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (3) and is now (0)

Recover: Male entering recovery, 10 minutes start.

Pleasure: Final roll = 28

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (3) and is now (0)

Recover: Female coming down from orgasm

Round 62

Male: S(0) O(16) F(2) G(30)

Female: S(1) O(31) F(2) G(61)

Running Foreplay (Male Only)

Prowess: Male rolls a (13) Final Prowess = (31)

Prowess: Female rolls a (9) Final Prowess = (27)

Pleasure: Final roll = 25

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (0) and is now (1)

Recover: Male exiting recovery period, became aroused.

Round 63

Male: S(1) O(16) F(2) G(30)

Female: S(1) O(31) F(2) G(61)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (3) Final Prowess = (21)

Prowess: Female rolls a (12) Final Prowess = (30)

Pleasure: Final roll = 24

Resist: Male rolls a (5) Final Fort Save = (15/15) SUCCESS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (1) and is now (1)

Pleasure: Final roll = 15

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (1) and is now (1)

Round 64

Male: S(1) O(16) F(2) G(30)

Female: S(1) O(31) F(2) G(61)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (8) Final Prowess = (26)

Prowess: Female rolls a (2) Final Prowess = (20)

Pleasure: Final roll = 14

Resist: Male rolls a (11) Final Fort Save = (21/0) SUCCESS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (1) and is now (1)

Pleasure: Final roll = 20

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (1) and is now (2)

Round 65

Male: S(1) O(16) F(2) G(30)

Female: S(2) O(31) F(2) G(61)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (11) Final Prowess = (29)

Prowess: Female rolls a (1) Final Prowess = (19)

Pleasure: Final roll = 13

Resist: Male rolls a (5) Final Fort Save = (15/0) SUCCESS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (1) and is now (1)

Pleasure: Final roll = 23

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (2) and is now (3)

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (62)

Round 66

Male: S(1) O(16) F(2) G(30)

Female: S(3) O(32) F(2) G(62)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (4) Final Prowess = (22)

Prowess: Female rolls a (8) Final Prowess = (26)

Pleasure: Final roll = 20

Resist: Male rolls a (20) Final Fort Save = (30/15) SUCCESS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (1) and is now (1)

Pleasure: Final roll = 16

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (3) and is now (0)

Recover: Female coming down from orgasm

Round 67

Male: S(1) O(16) F(2) G(30)

Female: S(1) O(32) F(2) G(62)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (9) Final Prowess = (27)

Prowess: Female rolls a (2) Final Prowess = (20)

Pleasure: Final roll = 14

Resist: Male rolls a (8) Final Fort Save = (18/0) SUCCESS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (1) and is now (1)

Pleasure: Final roll = 21

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (1) and is now (2)

Round 68

Male: S(1) O(16) F(2) G(30)

Female: S(2) O(32) F(2) G(62)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (17) Final Prowess = (35)

Prowess: Female rolls a (16) Final Prowess = (34)

Pleasure: Final roll = 28

Resist: Male rolls a (5) Final Fort Save = (15/20) FAILS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (1) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Final roll = 29

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (2) and is now (3)

Climax: Male has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (31)

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (63)

Round 69

Male: S(3) O(17) F(2) G(31)

Female: S(3) O(33) F(2) G(63)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (5) Final Prowess = (23)

Prowess: Female rolls a (15) Final Prowess = (33)

Pleasure: Final roll = 27

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Male has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Pleasure: Final roll = 17

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (3) and is now (0)

Recover: Female coming down from orgasm

Climax: Male has reached climax. Gratification: 2 Total (33)

Round 70

Male: S(3) O(18) F(2) G(33)

Female: S(1) O(33) F(2) G(63)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (9) Final Prowess = (27)

Prowess: Female rolls a (11) Final Prowess = (29)

Pleasure: Final roll = 23

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (3) and is now (0)

Recover: Male entering recovery, 10 minutes start.

Pleasure: Final roll = 21

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (1) and is now (2)

Round 71

Male: S(0) O(18) F(2) G(33)

Female: S(2) O(33) F(2) G(63)

Running Foreplay (Male Only)

Prowess: Male rolls a (19) Final Prowess = (37)

Prowess: Female rolls a (3) Final Prowess = (21)

Pleasure: Final roll = 31

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (0) and is now (2)

Recover: Male exiting recovery period, became aroused.

Round 72

Male: S(2) O(18) F(2) G(33)

Female: S(2) O(33) F(2) G(63)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (18) Final Prowess = (36)

Prowess: Female rolls a (10) Final Prowess = (28)

Pleasure: Final roll = 22

Resist: Male rolls a (7) Final Fort Save = (17/20) FAILS!

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (2) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Final roll = 30

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (2) and is now (3)

Climax: Male has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (34)

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 1 Total (64)

Round 73

Male: S(3) O(19) F(2) G(34)

Female: S(3) O(34) F(2) G(64)

Running Intercourse (Mutual)

Prowess: Male rolls a (16) Final Prowess = (34)

Prowess: Female rolls a (11) Final Prowess = (29)

Pleasure: Final roll = 23

Pleasure: Male's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Male has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Pleasure: Final roll = 28

Pleasure: Female's Pleasure was (3) and is now (3)

Pleasure: Female has concurrent orgasms... Wis Damage

Climax: Male has reached climax. Gratification: 2 Total (36)

Fatigue: Male has been fatigued. Fatigue now (3)

Climax: Female has reached climax. Gratification: 2 Total (66)

Fatigue: Female has been fatigued. Fatigue now (3)

DOUBLE PASS OUT!

neat finish, huh?


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## Alzrius (May 19, 2003)

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *NVI... Alright. I love the category and the description, but if it is possible to give someone an orgasm using Caress(thigh) or Caress(Arm) I think we should allow NVI to pleasure the non-thuster... How? Well I'm not sure. I'd say allow the proficiency to go both ways. (if you are a girl and take NVI-Breasts, it's how to pleasure him, if you are a guy and take NVI-Breasts, it's how to get her off through NVI via the breasts....) Make it work just like any other reciprical prof. And I would go with the following modifiers:
> 
> Thruster (to pleasure the reciever)
> Aroused +5, Peaked +10, Climaxed +15, Ecstatic +20
> ...




Slightly curious, are those modifiers to DC right? DbS said that the modifiers should all be to the Prowess roll in future listings of the rules, but I can't find where he lists the what the bonuses apply to in the proficiency descriptions.

That aside, I think that's a great idea! I've been propagating that from the start.  



> *
> A +16 prowess has an upper gratifiction limit of about 33 (for females). This brings up a very valid concern: High gratifaction scores can only be attained if the partner has both a high Constitution and a Fort Save (prowess has nothing to do with it, in the partner). Thus, you can only get a uber high gratification yourself if you are high level yourself. I.E. if the best lover in the world find a young novice to seduce, he can't please her any better than the second best lover, or the third...*




It's quite possible that I'm just not getting it, but I don't see where you're getting this from. Admittedly, high Con and such help to keep a character in climax longer, but after that it's just DC modifiers to Prowess, which will require higher and higher ranks of Prowess to beat.

I also don't quite get where you're getting that a +16 rank bonus will have an upper gratification limit of 33 for women. It seems much lower than that, since the extended climax DCs quickly rise above 36 (natural 20 +16) and even then, there are Exhaustion penalties and such. It seems like that +16 wouldn't come near 33 total gratification points.

As an aside, I noticed that the listing for the 1st round for "Climax" in the Extended Climax chart has a different DC than the listing than it does over on "Arousal DCs". Those should be the same since that is the first round right? They're the same for Ecstatic...


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## Sorn (May 19, 2003)

Great job all. I'll post all the upadated rules on the website sometime today.


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## Gez (May 19, 2003)

Shouldn't oral sex goes into NVI as well ?

Because it works the same: one performs, the other enjoys; unless there's a 69er going on.

Actually, getting an orgasm from being sodomized is more probable (especially for the guys who are into this, thanks to the prostate) than from performing a blow-job or cunnilingus.

Just food for thought.


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## Alzrius (May 19, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> *Shouldn't oral sex goes into NVI as well ?
> 
> Because it works the same: one performs, the other enjoys; unless there's a 69er going on.*




I mentioned this back when that category was being mentioned, but was shouted down. This wouldn't seem to quite encompass cunnilingus though, and besides, the idea of "one performs, other enjoys"...which is currently slated as "one performs, and enjoys, the other just lies there" is against the idea of what you mention below also.



> *Actually, getting an orgasm from being sodomized is more probable (especially for the guys who are into this, thanks to the prostate) than from performing a blow-job or cunnilingus. *




Which is a good reason why you should be able to use those NVI proficiencies for more than just receiving to pleasure the thruster.


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## Sorn (May 19, 2003)

The only time any penetration would be involved with oral would be when a male is "serviced". But even then, the penetrative factor is only a small sub-section of the whole thing by the time you figure in licking certain spots etc.  

So, oral is its own proficiency group whereas the non-vaginal proficiencies are all penetrative.  

Speaking of which, we still need a name for NVI. How about Exotic Penetration? Since the Exotic Proficiencies have been renamed to Mental Prof's, there shouldn't be any confusion (unless people think they need something special to acquire Exotic Penetration profs). 

Anyway, it appears to me that version 1.5.1 of the core mechanics is sound and very close to final. Should we move on to the other subjects on the to-do list and deal with the minor issues later?  I don't mean to rush anything, but I am afraid we keep on fine-tuning and fiddling with these little things in the core mechanics until hell freezes over. As it stands right now, at worst a modifier will be tweaked or a proficiency will be amended. Those changes, even if implemented later, are easily propagated through other finished chapters with a simple Search&Replace. 

I think the next thing we should tackle are the Soft Focus rules. There are some modifiers mentioned in the Size Matters rules, but this needs to be fleshed out.


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## Alzrius (May 20, 2003)

The modifiers for the various proficiency groups when used to induce varying states of arousal are still listed in terms of being added to the DC. Since we're (wisely, IMO) going with all bonuses and penalties being listed in terms of the Prowess roll, this section should be reversed, either by flipping them end to end, or leaving the numbers and changing the "+" to a "-" everywhere.

That said, I can't seem to find anything about sizes beyond what's in the "Size Matters" section, which doesn't clarify much at all. Help here?


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## Gez (May 20, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *The only time any penetration would be involved with oral would be when a male is "serviced". But even then, the penetrative factor is only a small sub-section of the whole thing by the time you figure in licking certain spots etc.
> 
> So, oral is its own proficiency group whereas the non-vaginal proficiencies are all penetrative.*




You mean that a tongue in a vagina is not a penetration, but in dick between two breasts is one ? 

Anyway, I was speaking about consistent mechanics. The one who use lips and tongue is not going to get an orgasm through that oral service.


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## Death By Surfeit (May 20, 2003)

NB: Eeep! The following post somehow didn’t get through to Enworld. For what it’s worth, I’ll post a slightly modified version of it now, but consider it from the perspective of the end of last topic. Terrific work Java Girl! I shall muse over your findings immediately.

Thankyou, VVrayven, for your feedback and suggestions. I would concur with your slant on NVI (incidentally, I'm willing to run with Exotic Penetrative - sounds good, if a little long winded), although with the current scale we don’t cater for proficiency penalties greater than –10 (ooh... they should have been changed to penalties... *hastily fixes problem*); I would advocate a –5/-10/-10/-10 instead; a –10 ontop of the high DC for Climax makes for a pretty difficult test, anyway.

I’ve been squrrelling away at the alignment system, and you can all expect a submission of initial rules fairly soon now.

DbS


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## brevdravis (May 20, 2003)

*Question...*

Okay, now that i've found the right thread....

As far as the penetrative issue, are we following the d20 paradign, wherein the action is a general description of what is going on?

If we are, I don't quite see the huge penalties for exotic activities being necessary.  We are, I hope, assuming that the penetrator is doing other activities rather than just ramming away at the poor person underneath.  I think that the check should represent more than just the basic action.   If that's the case, a smaller penalty would be more in line, because someone who has taken the time to learn that activity fully would know how to minimize the discomfort of their partner.....

Just my 2c, hope it helps....

Stuart
-Finally finding this durn thread....


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## brevdravis (May 22, 2003)

*Regarding the gratification issues...*

I think that the reason that you're getting the huge discrepancies is that they haven't addressed the issue of male vs female responses to sex.

Men tend to have few, but very powerful orgasms.  As a result, I think that the numbers to give a male the more powerful orgasms should be lowered.  

However, that does bring up the issue of stacking the recovery penalties and exhaustion penalties.  What I propose for that, would be that the male characters should get either a heightened resistance to exhaustion, (Since i notice that they are passing out WAAAY to much... I mean rolling over and going to sleep is one thing...)  or that the status penalties should be made gender specific.

BTW:  Is this thread dead too?  I'd hate to be talking to myself again....

Stuart


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## Sorn (May 22, 2003)

brevdavis... welcome to the "active" thread. The current lack of activity is probably due to the board outages over the last few days. By the time everybody gets the notification email, the boards might be down again. Plus, the GUCK team is fairly small, so if two or three of us aren't online, there go half the potential responses. 

AFAIK, VVrayven and DbS are tweaking the mechanics right now, so they might be too busy to post. 

As I am more on the design end, I'll leave your questions for VVrayven and DbS.... they certainly know the mechanics better than anyone else.


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## brevdravis (May 22, 2003)

*Advanced mechanics question*

Okay, now that I know this board isn't dead, (Thanks for the welcome Sorn!)  I'll drop in some more quick questions....

With regards to advanced mechanics....

1.  With regards to multiple partners, is there a plan for "doubling-up" on someone.  For example, we have the penalties for handling making checks on two people.  I'm wondering if the plan is to handle two people making checks on the same person by adding either a synergy bonus, or just to use the same rules that d20 normally uses for two people (or more....  )  combining actions.

The way I'm seeing it, the person in the "middle" should be able to have the multiple checks made upon them with no problem, but if you want to make checks back.... Then I think that the standard rules handle it pretty well with the exception of some of the penetrative skills.  Without getting too graphic, I think the "just lie there" rules should apply, unless the character is actively trying to please everybody, and then of course the standard penalties should apply.

Hentai addendum:  Regarding multiple partners for those with multiple appendages,  I think that the existing "Multi-dexterity" feat could be slightly expanded to cover the situation...

2.  NC (non consensual situations).  If we're going for a complete guide, we need to cover it (And lets be honest, it is a fantasy novel archetype).  Is there a rough draft in the making for this yet?  If not, who's covering it?

Thanks, have fun with my queries, and feel free to rip them apart.....

Stuart


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## Alzrius (May 23, 2003)

*Re: Advanced mechanics question*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *1.  With regards to multiple partners, is there a plan for "doubling-up" on someone.  For example, we have the penalties for handling making checks on two people.  I'm wondering if the plan is to handle two people making checks on the same person by adding either a synergy bonus, or just to use the same rules that d20 normally uses for two people (or more....  )  combining actions.*




We've got this. Near the end of the "Extended Round section: _Where a character has been the subject of multiple Prowess checks, take the highest result as the basic roll. Each further roll sufficient to maintain or raise the character’s arousal or horniness adds +2 to this roll; each one rolling below this deducts –2 instead._

That probably should do under "Multiple Partners" though.



> *2.  NC (non consensual situations).  If we're going for a complete guide, we need to cover it (And lets be honest, it is a fantasy novel archetype).  Is there a rough draft in the making for this yet?  If not, who's covering it?*




Check out the bottom of the "Status Conditions" section: _If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may declare themselves Unwilling as a free action. All arousal and horniness resulting from checks against the character are resisted with an unwilling bonus of between 1 and 20 or more for as long as the condition lasts. Becoming horny negates the benefits of being Unwilling._

The result here is that you can still, for example, use a Penetrative technique on someone and they'd make that free roll back for your pleasure. If you want to make someone get off involuntarily, you just have to beat their unwilling bonus, however high it is. Note that you can make them Aroused and they can still be unwilling. They have to become Horny, as a mental condition, before they lose that bonus.


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## Death By Surfeit (May 23, 2003)

Wotcher,

I haven't the time for an in-depth response at the moment (still fiddling with the alignment rules, I'm afraid), but I can address your questions. The comparative trength of a male Climax is represented by the lower DC required to get them into a state of Climax or Ecstasy - women, on the other hand, can sustain more of them and over a longer duration (hence the Extended Climax DC Table).

With our current statistical readings from Java Girl, it appears that men get the best of things when both partners are relatively unskilled, but women quickly take the lead in terms of gratification when partners are more talented. Which is somewhat true, really.

Anyways, expect a post proper over the next few days (assuming the boards don't crash *again*).

DbS


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## Death By Surfeit (May 23, 2003)

Oooh,

This looks like a case for Java Girl: VVrayven, could you investigate what happens if we give both males and females identical fatigue values, ie men get (Con) Climaxes before Exhaustion? Their lower DCs may be offset by the advantage women get in the Extended Climax Table, and we could be able to reach an equilibrium of sorts.

Cheers!


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## brevdravis (May 23, 2003)

*Thanks for the answers*

Thanks a lot for pointing out those sections of the guide that I missed.  

(Not that I'm trying to nitpick here.... buuuut...a few ideas....)

1. With regards to the multiple partners rule, I think that the bonus might be a little low, after all, the fact that it's two people giving full attention instead of one splitting their attention should be reflected.  I'm thinking a bonus based on the degree the check was made by...

I.e.  If you have a check that just maintains, the +2 should apply, but if the second check would actually raise the arousal level, I'm thinking at least a +5, possibly more depending on the check roll.

2.  Thanks for pointing out the NC rule.  However, I think that needs a little fleshing out, since it's pretty barren.  Just a quick thought, (Could offend, so I apologize in advance)  but IMHO there are five ways that the situation could be handled.  (Sidebars, maybe...)

A.  Doesn't exist in the world.  (All relationships are consensual and shame on you for even thinking otherwise!) -  Something like this would be for those who want to include sex but don't want to include the more unpleasant parts of human nature.

B.  Reality - Soft focus.  (It's an unpleasant fact of life and is handled off screen with a quick combat followed by a soft-focus roll for the attacker.)  - For those who want it in the game but don't want the total experience.

C.  Reality - Hard Focus.  (It's an unpleasant reality that happens in the world.  Is done "on screen"  with various grapple checks, followed by proficiency checks.  Severe penalties would be present for the attacker to even attempt to pleasure the victim.   95+% of the time the only one who enjoys the situation is the attacker.)  -  For those who want gritty reality.

D. Fantasy - Soft focus.  (Ranges from unpleasant to fantasy situations.  A quick grapple roll followed by the quick proficiency check.) - For those who want to have those lovely little "bodice-ripper" scenes in their game, but want to avoid the nitty-gritty.

E.  Fantasy - Hard Focus.  (Same as the soft focus, except the fantasy scene is more played out with specific checks for a few things.  Penalties are much lighter, and the emphasis is on attempts to bring pleasure rather than the frightening reality.)  -  For those of ,  Oh the hell with it, I'll admit it, it's for me.  There, ya happy?

This is just a quick outline, the soft focus would be a quick roll similar to what we have, and I think the only one that would need rules would be the hard focus.

Just rambling off-topic.

Thanks for your time.

Stuart


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## VVrayven (May 24, 2003)

Welcome, brevdravis.  I like your enthusiasim, you remind me of me a little.  I'll respond to your points:

On the Multiple Partners... I don't think you realize how much of an advantage get TWO rolls applied to you is. First of all, there shouldn't be a big bonus to multiple partners. If five people were concentrating on one person, there isn't a whole lot more to do... And if you add huge bonuses to the roll, you end up with really high results that result in instant multiple orgasms and such (which IMHO is just silly). If I was getting a good attention from my s/o the fact that a few other tongues were bathing me wouldn't make much difference. As such, our system does help statistically a great deal. Take basic partners, all with +3 total prowess and normal conditions, all are aroused.

If just ONE person pleasures a girl, she only has a 30% chance to get peaked.
If TWO people get on her, she has a 55.5% chance to be peaked.

A 25.5% increase is a hell of a lot.  (A plus +5 bonus would give well over a 35% increase, which I consider far too much). In addition, if the bonus was that high. Any four people could get together and be practically GUARENTEED to be successful, and I don't like that.

On the NC STUFF... I have brought this up before. The rule is vauge on purpose and we are deliberately avoiding a side-bar in the rules section. There will be several pages (or paragraphs) devoted to the topic of NC. It will not be covered to a detailed extent. The Unwilling condition is broad enough that it will cover any of the styles you have listed and we may use such a list in the later section disuccing NC. However, this is not part of the core mechanics and thus we will dicuss it later (don't expect a big complex rule add-on to the core mechanics for NC). However. All that being said. I plan to lead the Hentai expansion which will have some detailed rules for NC and such if you are interested. Again, this is all for a later date and not for current discussion. Good list though, try and post it again when we get around to the NC section.

AND!!!! JAVA GIRL RETURNS! 

Alrighty guys. Java girl is back on the scene and I'm working hard. I do need some feedback quickly though so that I might continue (particularly from DbS). My new program running ability has been greatly increased but I have found a couple of mechanics flaws that need to be addressed.

1. Male Gratification scores. We can fix these after the program is running, I have three ideas. Please hold comment until you have seen my results.

2. The Delerious Status Condition. If this is induced in a female with less than a 6 prowess modifier, it will cause her to try to masturbate infinately if no partner is around. She will never reach orgasm because she is exhausted. There is no duration so she will simply continue probably till she passes out because of exposure. I see this as a problem. Does anyone else. Personally I'd like to see Delerious condition carry a bonus to pleasure the person and perhaps give them a bit greater endurance? Any thoughts? In addition, they should be immune to WIS damage from sex, else they will quickly be put in a coma. AND, should partners always reside to aroused whilst SDed?

3. Our thinking on the HD damage per orgasm per level whilst exhausted is wrong (I know I came up with it <sheepish look>) A level one character can on average have 10 whilst exhausted. Level 3 people can have 7. And from there on the average is 6. Thus, as you gain in level you can take LESS orgasms whilst exhuasted. Also, I'm begining to think that orgasm shouldn't be the only way to measure fatigue. If two people (god forbid) made love for two hours without an orgasm, I think BOTH should be fatigued. Comments?

I'm almost ready to engage the next version of my program and it looks to be cool, but I need these modifications before I proceed. Thanks for the help, boys.


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## Alzrius (May 24, 2003)

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *2. The Delerious Status Condition. If this is induced in a female with less than a 6 prowess modifier, it will cause her to try to masturbate infinately if no partner is around. She will never reach orgasm because she is exhausted. There is no duration so she will simply continue probably till she passes out because of exposure. I see this as a problem. Does anyone else.*




I'm not sure...the description for being Delerious says, "_A Delirious character is beyond the reach of the world and lost in a private world of sensuality, devoid of the will to do anything but satisfy an all-consuming desire for base pleasure. This is not by any means a natural state - only through the machinations of powerful enchantments or by having their Wisdom reduced to 3 or lower whilst aroused can a character enter this state.

Unless the character succeeds in a Will save (DC 30) each round, they are considered Helpless, incapable of taking any action beyond seeking out the nearest source of sexual relief and indulging themselves They lack the awareness to make seduction attempts, instead throwing themselves at whatever looks most satisfying - sexual alignment plays a role where there is a choice of partners, but beyond that a Delirious character will consent to pretty much anything and anyone._"

Given that, she would probably snap out of it when she recovers her Wis (which won't go down since she can't reach orgasm) or when the spell ends. Ergo, she won't die of exposure.

That said, the problem of a woman who is Delerious not being able to reach orgasm from masterbating doesn't seem so terribly wrong here; It'd seem to make sense that she'd try desperately to find someone, anyone, to get her off, and if alone would suffer for it.



> *Personally I'd like to see Delerious condition carry a bonus to pleasure the person and perhaps give them a bit greater endurance? Any thoughts? In addition, they should be immune to WIS damage from sex, else they will quickly be put in a coma. AND, should partners always reside to aroused whilst SDed?*




The system we're developing seems to be changing and revising a bit too much, so for that reason I think that Delerious is fine as it is. Giving a bonus doesn't seem quite right, since you'd think that someone whose become a sex-crazed maniac wouldn't suddenly become even more proficient in touching someone just the right way. In essence, being that aroused sends your technique to hell, it doesn't make it better.

As to being immune to Wis damage...they'd only lose consciousness if they were in this state due to their Wis being below three. At that point, they'd have their Wis go to zero and be unconscious for a day later, when they'd gain back 1 point and wake up. This seems about normal for someone who already had enough orgasms to drive their Wisdom that low to begin with.

Not sure what you mean by SDed.



> *3. Our thinking on the HD damage per orgasm per level whilst exhausted is wrong (I know I came up with it <sheepish look>) A level one character can on average have 10 whilst exhausted. Level 3 people can have 7. And from there on the average is 6. Thus, as you gain in level you can take LESS orgasms whilst exhuasted. Also, I'm begining to think that orgasm shouldn't be the only way to measure fatigue. If two people (god forbid) made love for two hours without an orgasm, I think BOTH should be fatigued. Comments?*




Perhaps a caveat that characters who engage in sex for a number of rounds equal to their Con score become Fatigued, or something along those lines?


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## VVrayven (May 24, 2003)

> The system we're developing seems to be changing and revising a bit too much, so for that reason I think that Delerious is fine as it is.




I now pretty much agree.

I still want the fatigue problem looked at and we might have a couple of minor new issues. I have the program run complete. You can look at it at:

http://www.geocities.com/vvrayven/vvrayven.htm

I fixed a major problem, Ectasy wasn't turned on. <smug look> Oh well, it's fixed now.  By the way, the reason the Sex Gods have such low results is because Ecstatic kills durations and they can easily reach it. Hmmmm...

Now, the open issues as I see them:

1. Fatigue. Might need to be based on something other than just orgasms.

2. HD damage per orgasm per level whilst exhausted is too weird.

3. Male vs Female gratification issues.

Hugs to all. Hope this all helps.

I'd also like to endorse my solution to the Male Grat. Shown at the bottom of the webpage.


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## brevdravis (May 24, 2003)

*Fatigue mechanics...*

Thanks for the feedback on my querys.  

How bout this for the exhaustion....

Use the same mechanics that are used for Long-distance running for activity that requires considerable exertion.  Orgasms themselves require a constitution check. 

However, how bout borrowing something from another system.(7th Sea specifically.)  
In that game, for damage in combat, you gained "flesh wounds" until you failed a constution check. Flesh wounds gave you no penalty. Then you gained a "dramatic wound" and lost all the flesh wounds.  However, you now had a penalty.

So, what I'm thinking, is that for every orgasm you have, you need to make a constitution check.  If you fail the check you gain the stun damage.  The checks stack, so that if you have had three orgasms in a row, you have a major penalty to your con check.  However, as soon as you fail one, you go right back to no penalty to your check.  (The stun damage represents the physical exhaustion.)

If that seems a little too heavy on the damage, You could always give a bonus to the first few times the character comes....

Just an idea, with no testing whatsoever....

Stuart


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## Death By Surfeit (May 27, 2003)

Wotcher,

I’ve got a rather heavy workload on at the moment, so you’ll all have to hold on for the kinks & alignment system for now... nevertheless, I’ll try to summarise the proviisonal rules so that any noteworthy issues can be discussed a little later on.

Regarding fatigue and gratification: Initially, I wanted fatigue to be the ‘cap’ preventing ludicrous sexual performances, and the fatigue system reflected that. However, the thought occurred to me that higher-level characters can withstand blows that would kill a lesser person, so why shouldn’t they be capable of undergoing marathon sexual experiences?

Basically, when exhausted, a character takes 1d6 points of subdual damage for each round they spend in Climax, and 5d6 for each round they spend in Ecstasy. This adjustment may require changes to the Gratification Table to scale results accordingly, but I’d like to see the numbers in play.

How does giving males a number of Climaxes equal to their Con score before Exhaustion change things? I would hope their lower DCs are offset by females’ greater capacity for extended climaxes, but I’m not sure. Perhaps this is a case for Java Girl?

A quick fix: The Delirious condition CANNOT be induced by Wisdom damage. Ecstasy now only deals 1 point of temporary Wisdom damage, Climax deals none – otherwise, people will be recuperating from an intense love-making session for the next fortnight.

SEXUAL ALIGNMENT & KINKS
DbS’s rough jottings

Sexual alignment: A parallel with conventional alignment, reflecting a person’s libido an attitude toward it. Two components: drive (abstinent/moderant/indulgent) and orientation (andro/bi-andro/bi/bi-gyno/gyno) combine to give overall picture. No defined relation with conventional alignment, but is a haphazard and irrational force: chaotic characters tend toward Indulgent, and lawful characters Abstinent. Include example or three.

Kinks: Build upon sexual alignment. If used, may be chosen in character creation or roll on chart according to sexual alignment – abstinent likely to have more frets, indulgent likely to have more fetishes. Kinks have a ‘Kink Potency’, representing their overall hold over the character. Mundane kinks have a Potency of up to 3, magically-induced may have more. Two types – fetishes (positive) and frets (negative).

Fetishes: When confronted with the subject of their desire, characters must make a save (DC 10+Kink Potency) or become Horny. When the subject is shown in a particularly evocative way, DC may be increased by GM. Prowess checks made against a character involving their fetish get kink bonus of +(Kink Potency). Optional: if character does not indulge in fetish within time increment (dependant on Potency), must make additional save (as above) each further increment or suffer –(Kink Potency) as a morale penalty to all actions until they can indulge again.

Frets: When confronted with the subject of their fret, characters must make a save (DC 10+Kink Potency) or lose all Horniness. Extent of contact may increase the DC at Gm’s discretion. Prowess checks made against a character involving their fetish get kink penalty of -(Kink Potency).

that just about summarises my thinking at this moment in time. Hope to have a proper write-up for you all as soon as possible.

Cheers,

DbS


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## brevdravis (May 27, 2003)

*Sexual alignment feedback...*

Regarding your ideas on the base alignment,

I like the general ideas, here's a quick one building off them.

How bout nine quick roll tables that allow you to roll up a character's sexuality based off their alignment, (GM table for NPC's but for those players who like a little randomness in their character as well).  I just think a person's moral code, can and does have a bearing on their sexuality.  (There are many exceptions of course, which is why I think a chance for any sexuality, but a tendency towards one or the other, is appropriate.)

So, here's my quick thoughts on the tables, let me know what you think. (Mirrors some of the stuff on the site, but not all of it.)

Lawful characters tend towards one of the absolutes.  Their adherance to law insists that they make their choice and stick to it, with none of the flexibility that other alignments allow.  The full spectrum of drive is present in these characters, good characters more often then not channeling their desire into their (usually monogamous) relationships, while evil characters take advantage of anyone they legally can have.

Neutral (With regards to law/chaos)  tend to have no consistent pattern.  The full spectrum of sexuality is found in them, often depending on how close to either law or chaos they themselves are.  Neutrals do not tend toward any particular gender or drive, since as a whole they represent the "middle ground"

Chaotic.  Chaotics tend towards the "if it feels good, do it" school of thought.  Whereas lawful characters tend toward the extremes of sexual orientation, Chaotics tend towards experimentation.  Good chaotics always take their partners feelings into account, sometimes even not starting a relationship if their partner cannot handle the chaotics "free spirited" ways.  Evil chaotics tent to take what they can get, regardless of other's feelings.  Again, drive varies with chaotics,   since it is not the appetite, but the tendency towards variety that the chaos suggests.

Good.  Good tends towards honesty and truth in relationships.  Whether lawful or chaotic, good characters will not deliberately take advantage of their lovers or try to hurt them emotionally.  As far as sexuality goes, Good does not tend towards any one orientation (Despite the words of some Lawful Neutral priests).  The one place that good does tend toward something is in drive.  Good tends towards the abstinent drive, for the simple reason that good believes in holding itself in check.  Whether lawful or chaotic, good does not believe in doing ANYTHING that is desired, the feelings of others are always considered.

Neutral (Good/evil)  Neutral, once again, is the middle ground.  However, in this area, Neutral does tend towards the "Moderate" sex drive.  The reason being that the vast majority of neutrals may occasionally indulge in areas that a good character would not.

Evil .  Evil once again does not tend towards any orientation.  However, the emphasis on self gratification means that evil characters tend to have an indulgent sex drive.  Though by no means the rule, (There are plenty of good characters who are also indulgent)  the emphasis on getting what they want means that evil characters tend to have a larger appetite than others.

There's my quick thoughts,  I can go on a bit more if you like.
(Hope I'm not too far off topic here....)
Stuart


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## VVrayven (May 27, 2003)

Okay. The Program has been modified for the new fatigue system which changes the numbers dramatically by the way. However, it does fix the problem of higher level characters lasting shorter periods of time. The two fixes were the removal of the Delerious condition and Wis damage fix, AND the change to the subdual damage during exhausted status (which allows high level characters to go far longer now, 20-30 climaxes as opposed to 6).

As a side note, once you hit really hit prowess and hit point levels, it doesn't matter how many hit points you have because Ectasy causes Wisdom damage. So unless you have a really high wisdom, you'll pass out because of wisdom loss long before you pass out from the 300 subdual damage...

If you want the complete report from my findings, go here:

http://www.geocities.com/vvrayven/vvrayven.htm

Here is the short version in regards to the gratification fix:

Core Mechanics currently give:

Gratification (M/F)

Commoner (lvl 1): (1.0 / 0.5)
Level 1: (1.0 / 1.5)
Level 5: (15 / 20)
Level 10: (30 / 39)
Level 15: (41 / 51)
Level 20: (54 / 73)

Male gets 1 climax before fatigue, CON before Exhaustion:

Commoner (lvl 1): (2.0 / 0.5)
Level 1: (2.0 / 1.5)
Level 5: (30 / 22)
Level 10: (41 / 44)
Level 15: (48 / 56)
Level 20: (60 / 76)

So. It looks like DbS's solution works! Good idea!  <blows a kiss> Well, I'm really busy this week as well. But I will try and post as much as possible. <hugs all>


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## Sorn (May 28, 2003)

That looks very good VVrayven. 

Just out of curiosity, can your program handle other situations as well? Multiple partners, carnal arts, kinks/frets (once we have them) etc.

If it does, it might not hurt to run a few of those examples as well, just in case.


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## brevdravis (May 28, 2003)

*Thanks! Javagirl!*

Woah, looks like the problem's solved.  I'm happy with those scores.  

Since the main problems with the "core" mechanics seem to be solved, are there any other things we need to cover on the topic before we stick a fork in it?

Stuart


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## Bastoche (May 28, 2003)

Ok, I'm almost back!

I don't remember if I explained my absence, I had a qualifying exam for my Ph.D. I getting my oral exam tomorrow afternoon. Then I'll have time to look at what happened in 4 weeks and be back to the project again.


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## Sorn (May 28, 2003)

Welcome back and good luck tomorrow. Glad to have you back on board.


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## brevdravis (May 28, 2003)

*New feat idea.*

Hey, just checked the to-do list, and saw that the feats were the next thing up,

Soooo, had a suggestion for a new feat, since I want to contribute.  I was thinking what would be an equivilent feat to the female side of the Massively Hung feat....

Since the size matters rule is what we're looking at with the feat,  how bout this....

*Extremely Tight (General)* 

You are built considerably smaller than average for your race.
_Prerequisites:_ Must be Female, must be taken at 1st level.
_Benefit:_ Your vagina is a half a size category smaller than usual for your race. (For example, a Halfling would count as a tiny-and a half, and an Orc would count as a Medium.)

_Special:_ Certain races already count as smaller than a normal orifice (unintended) of their size category;  if they gain this feat, the circumstances stack. (Major ouch if combined with the massivly hung feat...)

Well, just trying to level the playing field a bit, whaddya think?

Stuart


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 1, 2003)

Wotcher,

Looking over Java Girl’s findings (thanks for those, VVrayven), I think the modified version works better – I’ve made some modifications, and the Extended Mechanics v.1.5.3 has been polished off. Wisdom damage has been reduced, fatigue equalised between the sexes, post-Exhaustion fatigue converted to the points system, and Delirium made more unlikely. If anyone would like to disagree or suggest further revisions, by all means do so.

After some tinkering, I’ve come up with a Gratification Table as follows, in line with VVrayven’s results:

Table 1-08: Total Gratification
Points	Experience	Temporary/Permanent attitude change
0 Disappointing experience –1/0
1 Satisfactory experience 0/0
4 Enjoyable experience +1/0
9 Memorable experience +1/+1
25 Fantastic experience +2/+1
36 Extraordinary experience +2/+2
49 Heavenly experience +3/+2
64 Rapturous experience +3/+3

Sorry I don’t have a polished section on Alignment, everyone, but any obliging soul is welcome to use my notes, their ideas or anything else they can draw upon to write something up for the board.

Cheers,

DbS


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## VVrayven (Jun 1, 2003)

Just a couple of quick thoughts.

1) My program still only gives a male 1 orgasm before fatigue and females get their Con Mod. However, both sexes get CON before exhaustion and 1d6 (5d6 Est) subdual thereafter. Should this be modified?

2) I like the new chart. However, since all the numbers are so close, how about just making them all multiples of five like:

Table 1-08: Total Gratification
Points Experience Temporary/Permanent attitude change
0 Disappointing experience –1/0
1 Satisfactory experience 0/0
5 Enjoyable experience +1/0
10 Memorable experience +1/+1
25 Fantastic experience +2/+1
35 Extraordinary experience +2/+2
50 Heavenly experience +3/+2
65 Rapturous experience +3/+3

Just a thought for ease of use.  I'm sorry I'm so busy lately, expect a final run of the program soon with numbers for how often and how much the average attitude shifts are.  ::hugs to all::


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## asra (Jun 2, 2003)

Is it possible to get something like a
(negative value) "Traumatic Experience -1/-1"?


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## Bastoche (Jun 2, 2003)

When NC is concerned I guess? Absolutly!


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 2, 2003)

Which reminds me, I ought to add (this will probably be mentioned when we cover NC matters later on) that the gratification is represented by _transient_  attitude modifiers - they can be negated (excepting the use of potent spells or carnal arts) by your actions at any point. Regardless of how good an experience someone has had, mention that their sister was better and they will not be best pleased. Likewise, after a NC encounter, the victim is likely found Hostile regardless of 'enjoyment'.

VVrayven, I came up with the other DCs because they were squares (and thus neat and theoretically extendable for epic level), although we could change to multiples of 5... they look nice on a page. Might males get (Con Mod) Climaxes before Fatigue, as we have Recovery regarded in another way? Just an idea, although this may throw the charts. Look forward to seeing the results of your run!

Note: the way Size Matters mechanics currently work, I think I should butt in and state that things work best when sizes are equal. Nevertheless, I will introduce the Extremely Tight feat (would be useful for half-orc females), although we might consider applying it for any single orifice (or all of them) and enabling males to take it, out of equality.

DbS


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 4, 2003)

Oh, just a thought. Should any of you fine fellows (or ladies) have some time to spare, it would help if someone could write up an example of the 'mechanics in motion' so to speak, as the game rules look rather spartan. I am also declaring open season on sidebars and such. I understand this is a busy time for many of you, but I thought I'd give something for slackers to work toward.

Cheers,

DbS


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## VVrayven (Jun 5, 2003)

Hiya boys! 

JavaGirl is back with her mountain of calculations. <takes of glasses>  DbS, the grat numbers do change a little with equal male/female fatigue rules. I'll post the findings here. In the following tables, 0 = Disappointing, 1 = Satisfying, etc... 7 = Raptruous, 8 = BETTER than rapturous.

Level 1 Commoner
Total Prowess +0, Fort +0, CON = 10, HITS = 1
Average Female Gratification   0.53828
Average Male Gratification     1.0
Highest Female Gratification   1.0
Highest Male Gratification     1.0
Gratification Attitude Shifts: 
Female: 
0:46.172000000000004%  
1:53.827999999999996%  
2:0.0%  
Male: 
0:0.0%  
1:100.0%  
2:0.0%

Level 1 Normal PC Class
Total Prowess +3, Fort +3, CON = 13, HITS = 2
Average Female Gratification   1.95612
Average Male Gratification     2.38537
Highest Female Gratification   10.0
Highest Male Gratification     3.0
Female: 
0:1.8980000000000001%  
1:96.332%  
2:1.7680000000000002%  
3:0.0020%  
4:0.0%
Male: 
0:0.0%  
1:100.0%  
2:0.0%

Level 5 Normal PC Class
Total Prowess +7, Fort +5, CON = 13, HITS = 9
Average Female Gratification   21.85942
Average Male Gratification     31.54397
Highest Female Gratification   35.0
Highest Male Gratification     40.0
Female: 
2:0.0%  
3:1.146%  
4:86.99%  
5:11.863999999999999%  
6:0.0%
Male: 
3:0.0%  
4:0.331%  
5:99.09599999999999%  
6:0.573%  
7:0.0%

Level 10 Normal PC Class
Total Prowess +14, Fort +7, CON = 13, HITS = 17
Average Female Gratification   44.21391
Average Male Gratification     42.87056
Highest Female Gratification   61.0
Highest Male Gratification     66.0
Female:
3:0.0%  
4:0.28700000000000003%  
5:9.103%  
6:77.683%  
7:12.927%  
8:0.0%  
Male:
2:0.0%  
3:0.0030%  
4:0.653%  
5:21.453%  
6:55.74%  
7:22.15%  
8:0.0010%  

Level 15 Normal PC Class
Total Prowess +20, Fort +11, CON = 13, HITS = 25
Average Female Gratification   58.52107
Average Male Gratification     51.7576
Highest Female Gratification   91.0
Highest Male Gratification     90.0
Female:
3:0.0%  
4:0.048%  
5:2.774%  
6:20.283%  
7:42.223%  
8:34.672%  
Male:
3:0.0%  
4:0.046%  
5:4.627%  
6:38.973%  
7:45.465%  
8:10.889%  

Level 20 Normal PC Class
Total Prowess +25, Fort +14, CON = 13, HITS = 38
Average Female Gratification   78.89309
Average Male Gratification     61.33523
Highest Female Gratification   142.0
Highest Male Gratification     111.0
Female:
3:0.0%  
4:0.0010%  
5:0.232%  
6:3.923%  
7:18.679000000000002%  
8:77.16499999999999%  
Male:
2:0.0%  
3:0.0060%  
4:0.025%  
5:0.265%  
6:10.266%  
7:54.245%  
8:35.193000000000005%  

Level 10 Sex Based (Skilled)
Total Prowess +18, Fort +7, CON = 14, HITS = 20
Average Female Gratification   51.07659
Average Male Gratification     52.57408
Highest Female Gratification   79.0
Highest Male Gratification     83.0
Female:
2:0.0%  
3:0.0020%  
4:0.076%  
5:6.289%  
6:37.086000000000006%  
7:49.584%  
8:6.963%  
Male: 
3:0.0%  
4:0.017%  
5:4.089%  
6:37.592999999999996%  
7:44.153%  
8:14.148%  

Level 20 Sex Based (Master)
Total Prowess +34, Fort +14, CON = 16, HITS = 48
Average Female Gratification   90.10904
Average Male Gratification     71.6531
Highest Female Gratification   177.0
Highest Male Gratification     118.0
Female:
5:0.0%  
6:0.034%  
7:2.904%  
8:97.062%  
Male: 
0:0.0%  
1:0.0010%  
2:0.0%  
3:0.0010%  
4:0.0050%  
5:0.052%  
6:0.492%  
7:20.166%  
8:79.283%  

Well there you all have it. <sigh, rubs eyes> DbS, let me know if you think the Grat charts need tweaking.  <yawn> Night guys.


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## brevdravis (Jun 5, 2003)

*with regards to the "Mechanics in  motion"*

On the write up, is there anything in particular you want to see?

(Meaning, do you have specific classes or levels in mind?)

I suppose I could just redo the classic scenarios from the old Guck with the new rules, but that might be a little boring....

Tentatively, I'll roll up a few characters from the NPC online generator, and see what happens....  See ya in a day or so....

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 6, 2003)

*Mechanics play by play....*

All right everybody,

Here's what I did.  I grabbed the NPC generator online, and rolled up two level three characters.  THEN, I traded the most out-of-character skill selection for Prowess on a one-for-one rank value trade.

I decided to do a quick run through, not trying to go till anyone passes out and not stopping at one male climax.  (I decided to make the man nice enough to finish off his lady-love before passing out.)

So without further ado, I give you the Play by play of the new rules.  (I believe that I used the right tables, but feel free to point out any mistakes that I may have made, after all this is the first time I've used these rules...)(Oh, and I get pretty graphic here, hey, I'm trying to just have fun. Don't read if you might be offended.)  Rolls that did not change mental states are a little glossed over, but too many details would kill the flow......

Characters:

ANYA  - 3rd level Sorceress ST 12, DX 9, CN 11, IN 10, WS 10, CH 15.  Pertinent saves and skills:  Fortitude save: +1, Will save: +3, Prowess Check: +5  (3 ranks plus 2 for stat) Masturbation, female, Fellatio, Missionary. Oh, and female, duh...

LAUTER - 3rd Level Rogue ST 8, DX 16, CN 13, IT 12, WS 14, CH 12.  Pertinent saves and skills:  Fortitude save: +2, Will save: +3, Prowess Check:  +7 (6 ranks plus 1 for stat)  Masturbation, male,  Caress, breasts, Cunnilingus, Missionary, Rear, Riding.  Oh, and Male.... duh....

Since this is just a trial run, I assumed that Anya and Lauter are members of an adventuring party, and a little bit more as well.  Flush from a long day's journey, they carouse at an inn for a little while before deciding to head upstairs for a little private time.

_Edit:  The grandmothers just fainted. --Dinkeldog_


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## brevdravis (Jun 6, 2003)

_Still out cold.  --Dinkeldog_

Round 14:  The two lovers lie together, delighting in the feelings of lovemaking.  (Pregnancy check made using the old rules.  Lauter rolls a 18!  Uh-oh, adding his con bonus, it results in an 19.  That means that there is a possibility of knocking up Anya.  Anya fortunately rolls a 1 which means that no conception has taken place according to the old rules.) They catch some sleep, before heading out the next morning for another day of dungeon crawling....

 As far as Lauter was concerned, it was a Satisfactory encounter. (1 gratification point.) 
 Anya however, is feeling the results of a Memorable encounter (4 gratification points. Her reactions to Lauter will be improved by one postive attitude level.)  She delights in the feelings that her handsome rogue has brought her, and reflects on how nice it is to be with him......

That's about it.  Any problems with it, let me know.  1st time through, but I think it was pretty good....

Stuart

_Inline commentary:  Fairly imaginative, but more appropriate to Skinemax.  --Dinkeldog_


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## Kahuna Burger (Jun 6, 2003)

Eric's. Grandmother. Is. Gonna. Beat. Your. Back. Side.


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## Alzrius (Jun 6, 2003)

Stuart,

I just read over those long posts you made showcasing the mechanics in use. I must say I am impressed! Not only did you show a flawless use of the rules (I couldn't see a single thing done wrong), but the writing was also superb. That's a damn good example of exactly how the GUCK rules are meant to be used, IMO. Well done!


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## Sorn (Jun 6, 2003)

Oh boy... we got censored. Given the subject matter, it was only a matter of time, but it's still a first AFAIK. 

Anyway, Brev, go ahead and email me the stuff and I'll post it on the site.


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## brevdravis (Jun 6, 2003)

AAAAARGH!!!!!

I spent an hour and a half on that!!!!!

And, stupid me, I didn't save it..........

Hey moderator, I understand why you censored me, but if anybody was nice enough to save that before they chopped it, could you please send it to me?

brevdravis@yahoo.com  ?????

I'll try to keep it cleaner next time, thought this was an adult forum, guess I was wrong.....

Stuart


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## Kahuna Burger (Jun 6, 2003)

brevdravis said:
			
		

> *
> I'll try to keep it cleaner next time, thought this was an adult forum, guess I was wrong.....
> *




Adult as in "adult conversation" not "adult film". Or to put it in less ambigous terms, this generally works out to a pg13 forum. Mature discussion of sensitive subjects is certainly permitted, R to X rated blow by blow (pun intended) porn isn't.

I guess you hadn't heard of Eric's Grandmother before.  

Kahuna burger


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## brevdravis (Jun 6, 2003)

*Sorry, sorry everyone.....*

Yah, I messed up, first time Grandma busted me.....   

I'm still wanting that piece back tho.....  SOMEBODY's got to have it cached somewhere.  I was planning on saving it this morning, since I had to do some RL work.  I promise not to repost it, but as a writer I like to have a complete library of everything I've written.

Plus I want to send it to Sorn.... hey, he requested it!  

Stuart


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## Douane (Jun 6, 2003)

Stuart,

don't worry! I got you covered and saved it offline. When I read it this morning, I almost suspected something like that would happen.

Email's on the way!


Folkert


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## brevdravis (Jun 6, 2003)

*Cool!*

Thanks for sending it.....(Still haven't got it yet, but My email's a little slow recently.....Maybe try again?)

Next time I do a Play by play I'll just write it offline, announce that it is available, and send it to anybody who wants it.

Any scenario's that you all think I should do?

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 6, 2003)

*Just got it!  Thanks*

ALL RIGHT!!!

Thanks man!  I appreciate it.

I must say I feel better having the stuff in my hand.

I will now stop complaining.

Stuart


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## Sorn (Jun 6, 2003)

Ok, got it. I am in the middle of something right now, but I'll put it on the site later today. Since we have the disclaimers and warnings all over the place, it should be fine there.


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## Alzrius (Jun 7, 2003)

This is probably looking just a little further ahead than is necessary right now, but we should keep those two NPCs and use them to showcase examples for further sections. And perhaps give them a full NPC write up at the end maybe?

One thing I noticed looking over that turn-by-turn example again is that on the first round, Lauter used Caress (breasts) on Anya, and while he didn't achieve anything in the way of phsyical status conditions, he did alter her mental status to Horny. That is, basically, taking the result of a single Prowess check and aplying it against both the physical and mental DC tables.

Does it always work that way for Prowess checks? That checks made to beat Arousal DC's (Table 4-01) also have their results applied to Table 4-02, Mental Arousal DC's? If so, that means that the physical proficiencies of Prowess are much better than the mental proficiencies, since the former do "double duty" as it were.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 7, 2003)

*raises his head*

It shouldn't. Only physical profs induce physical arousal, and only mental profs induce mental; as you can only use one prof. at a time (without incurring penalties), this seems somewhat odd. I'll consult the writeup and have a look through (praising will arrive shortly).

VVrayven, looking at your results the DCs do indeed need changing. Things such as the +3/+3 should be reserved for Epic only, really, with a staggered growth toward them (easy to access lower ones, with higher results becoming progressively harder to attain). If anyone can come up with an alternative model, please do so. Cheers,

DbS

*drops back from whence he came*


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 7, 2003)

I saved it.  I'm thinking about posting it on NKL for the kids without grandmothers.


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## brevdravis (Jun 7, 2003)

*Ooops....*

Ok, I made a mistake.  (Wasn't certain on the rule there...)

I guess we should just count both characters as horny from the start of the encounter, and the first round didn't do anything.

I was under the impression that the prowess check was applied to both mental and physical simultaneously.  My bad.  I can do a quick rewrite of the first round and send it to sorn if you'd like.

As far as the rest of it goes, I still have the NPC's in hard copy at home, so I can post them when I get around to it.  If you all would like more examples of the play by play (now that I have the rules straight....)  just let me know what levels or classes you want and I'll write em up.  (I'm doing it by hand, so It takes a couple hours, adding in the descriptions)  

Stuart


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## VVrayven (Jun 8, 2003)

Hiya guys. Wow it's been a long week and weekend.  I have a couple of housekeeping issues I think we should talk about.

1) Lets not post anything else that can get censored. We skirt the edge as it is, so now that we've been slapped by the hand that feeds us, let's be good and play nice.  We have a website anyway.

2) Please, let's ask good ol Dinkeldog to shut down the other two threads for the rare instants when someone posts there.

3) I'm going to work on a Hentai expansion after the GUCK is done. (I know it's early, I'm just declaring intentions) I'm tenatively calling it HEx for short. Anyone that is interested should probably drop me an e-mail. We won't be doing much work until almost everything in the GUCK is in the finalization process. I'll eventually be starting up a Yahoo Group in the next few weeks to carry on some work. (Why Yahoo? Ask me offline. ) If I have stepped on anyone's toes here, just slap me and I'll conceed the position as Mistress of HEx. 

That's all the housekeeping. I'm going to start working on some of the other stuff for the GUCK this afternoon. We'll see what catches my attention first.


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## brevdravis (Jun 8, 2003)

*Unskilled? (And a delicate query...)*

Ok, got a query here.  When I was doing the actual write up, an issue came up that I don't think has been asked yet.

Is there an UNSKILLED use of the prowess skill?  I didn't use anything for that in the example.  (There were several occasions in the example, that if an unskilled check was made, Anya would have gotten a +2 for her charisma bonus.)

The other query is kinda silly, but I'm writing up a remake of the "Bard and the Noble's Daughter"  scenario, and the issue IS coming up....

What should be the penalty for virginity on the prowess check?  Meaning, on the round that a virgin loses it, how should we be handling it?  

Tentatively, I'm saying that it does D3 subdual damage.  That represents the pain involved rather adeptly.  I'm thinking for following rounds that there is a penalty of the origional subdual damage-1 for every following round.  (So eventually the pain goes away, and the check is normal again... Yes, very romance novel I know, but I want to get opinions whether I'm doing it fairly or not.)

Oh, and I'm TRYING not to get censored again, so I won't be posting any more Play by Play's here.  If you want to read it, you have to either wait until Sorn deems it worthy of being posted on his site, or email me for it.

Stuart


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## Alzrius (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: Unskilled? (And a delicate query...)*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *Ok, got a query here.  When I was doing the actual write up, an issue came up that I don't think has been asked yet.
> 
> Is there an UNSKILLED use of the prowess skill?  I didn't use anything for that in the example.  (There were several occasions in the example, that if an unskilled check was made, Anya would have gotten a +2 for her charisma bonus.)*




Yes, there is. The Prowess skill is neither exclusive nor "trained only", so you can make a Prowess check with no ranks in it. This is essentially just a Charisma check, and would be what anyone would make if they were engaged in some sort of sex that they didn't have a proficiency in.


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## Sorn (Jun 9, 2003)

All bow before the mighty Mistress of HEx!!!  

Anyway... I don't think you are stepping on any toes. As with the GUCK, it'll most likely be a team effort anyway. I volunteer for layout. 

As for the censoring issue... brev's latest revisions are up on the site. 

Site Updates: I check my email regularly throughout the day. Any material that is sent to me will go on the site within the hour (unless I am swamped with work). While I might have my own opinions about certain things, I am not the decision maker when it comes to things that go on the site. If something didn't make it on there, I either didn't get the email, or I haven't checked it lately. So please don't think I didn't like it and chose to ignore it. 

Virginity: Actually, pain during first intercourse is more often caused by insufficient lubrication than by the breaking of the hymen. Yes, the two lovebirds are probably horny, but since everybody makes such a big deal out of it, both parties are understandably nervous. Nervousness leads to dryness. Dryness leads to pain. Pain leads to the Dark Side. Get laid you must. Umm... scratch those last two... I am starting to sound like a horny Yoda here.... 

Speaking of Star Wars, there was a post on the older GUCK thread... Alzrius has redirected the poster to here, but there was a question re: Star Wars and the GUCK. As Alzrius pointed out, SW is closed content, so we can't even touch that with a 10' pole. However, once we are done, I might make a web enhancement for d20 Modern, so that might help the Star Wars fans a little too.


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## Asher (Jun 9, 2003)

Hi folks.  I've been trying to expand the existing Carnal Arts a bit, to offer a wider range of options for characters who take any given Art.  Ideally I'd like to see, within each Carnal Art set, at least two Arts available at each "tier" (3, 6, 9, 12, 15 ranks Prowess).  Below are the Immaculate Forms of the Master and the Flowers of the Decadent Blossom, with new Arts added to each (and one or two tweaks to previously existing Arts).

Please feel free to critique and offer recommended improvements to the mechanics and the names of the new Arts.

IMMACULATE FORMS OF THE MASTER
Before arising to become the Master of the Immaculate Forms, Weil-Hung lived a life of monastic seclusion, of quiet contemplation and iron discipline. It is against these principles that he rebelled - it is Weil-Hung’s dogma that life is best experienced by really living - sense achieved by sensuality. After a time of hedonistic travelling, he drew upon his martial prowess and sensual experience to found a school of martial arts that forms a very real war of the sexes.

3 Ranks Prowess - Mating Bull
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Str bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

3 Ranks Prowess - Unfaltering Ox
May be activated as a free action.  Allows character to assume and maintain sexual positions requiring feats of strength (ex. supporting partner's weight or own weight, sex while encumbered, etc.) without requiring a Strength check.  This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Charging Ram
May be activated as a free action. Allows a character either to increase the effective size of a phallus they are penetrating someone with, or to decrease the effective size of an orifice being penetrated, by half a size category for the purposes of the Size Matters rules. When the character reaches 12 ranks of Prowess, the effective size may be altered in such a manner by a whole size category.  This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Wrestling Tiger
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to switch positions at any time, including in the middle of an extended round, without losing any Prowess checks.  The character is able to move a nonresisting partner into the desired position as part of the same action.  If the partner resists, both participants make opposed Strength checks to determine which position is used.  (This ability may be useful for a character who wishes to avoid climaxing too early, by quickly switching to a position in which the partner is not proficient.)  This ability is instantaneous and may be used without limit until the character becomes Exhausted.

9 Ranks Prowess - Gulping Heron
May be activated before making a Prowess check. A character being penetrated may make a number of additional Prowess checks (Penetrative or NVI proficiencies as appropriate) equal to their Str modifier, taking the highest result. This ability is instantaneous.

9 Ranks Prowess - Burrowing Ferret
May be activated before making a Prowess check.  Allows character to use non-phallic appendages (fingers, toes, tongue) as if they were standard-size phalluses for the purposes of applying "technique suitability" DC modifiers (masturbatory and oral techniques may be used as penetrative techniques).  Potentially useful in multiple-partner scenarios.  This ability may be used at will until the character becomes Exhausted.

12 Ranks Prowess - Squeezing Boa
May be activated when a successful grapple check is made. Allows character to put foe into a special pin in which they may make a Prowess check each extended round against foe, but take no other action. The character may roll a Prowess check instead of a grapple check to resist attempts to escape, but this check does not impose any Arousal or Horniness. This ability lasts until the pin is released.

12 Ranks Prowess - Rutting Fox
May be activated as a free action. Allows an Aroused character to emit strong pheromones that act powerfully on the senses of sexually compatible persons.  The character automatically makes Prowess checks each round against all such persons within 5 feet, using the Mental Arousal DC table.  If the character is currently making active Prowess checks against a sex partner, the result of that Prowess check is added to the extra check, and the combined result is applied to the Mental Arousal DC table.  This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

15 Ranks Prowess - Stinging Cobra
May be activated before making a Prowess check. Should the Prowess check succeed, the partner must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Str mod + 1/2 character’s Hit Dice). If they fail, they are stunned for one round. After one round, they must make another save or be stunned for nine rounds.

15 Ranks Prowess - Perfect Dragon
May be activated as a free action.  After bringing a partner to Climax using a Penetrative technique, the character automatically succeeds a number of additional Prowess checks equal to the character's STR modifier in the Extended Climax round.  After expending these automatic-success checks, the character may continue to make additional normal Prowess checks to continue the Extended Climax round.  This ability ends at the conclusion of the Extended Climax round.


FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM
This art was born from the hedonistic aristocracy of Sumfing Oranutha, the noble and the rich who turned their backs on the concerns of the real world in order to immerse themselves in a lifetime of relationships, affairs and, more often than they would like to admit, downright debauchery. The Flowers were their only cultural legacy, a carnal art suited to such a solipsistic life.

3 Ranks Prowess - Courtesan’s Finesse
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Dex bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

3 Ranks Prowess - Lithesome Lover
May be activated as a free action.  Allows character to assume and maintain sexual positions requiring feats of dexterity (ex. unbalanced or contorted postures) without requiring a DEX check.  This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

3 Ranks Prowess - Peculiar Desires
The character gains one Fetish for every three ranks of Prowess.

6 Ranks Prowess - Love for Many
May be activated as a free action. The character halves penalties for making Prowess checks against multiple partners at once - that is to say that checks are at only -2 for each partner beyond the first. When the character achieves 12 ranks of Prowess, the penalty is removed entirely. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Secret Affair
May be activated as a free action. The character may make Prowess checks using a Caress proficency against a partner that is clothed or even armoured. No penalties apply to making checks against a clothed partner; the partner’s armour penalty applies to any checks made against them. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Love of Many
May be activated before making a Prowess check. By passing a Prowess check (DC 20), the character can apply two proficiencies they know at once against a single partner in a turn. Double their rank bonus, and apply any modifiers relevant to each proficiency (this may result in some modifiers being applied twice). They may instead attempt to apply three maneouvres (Prowess check DC 30), four maneouvres (DC 40) and so on, trebling or quadrupling the rank bonus and applicable modifers as described above. Should the Prowess check fail, they lose their rank bonus to Prowess for this turn. This ability is instantaneous.

9 Ranks Prowess - Specialist
May be activated as a free action.  The character is a specialist in one of her proficiencies and, when using it, suffers no DC penalties for unusual or inappropriate technique.  This ability is instantaneous.

12 Ranks Prowess - Nimble Touch
May be activated as a free action.  The character's manual dexterity is so great that he gains an additional Prowess check per round (applicable to himself or any partner), which *must* be used for a Masturbation technique.  (If the character is already using a Masturbation technique for his ordinary Prowess check, he gains no additional check.)  At 15 (18?) ranks of Prowess, the character gains this additional Prowess check for each hand (max. 2).  This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

12 Ranks Prowess - Uninhibited Love
May be activated as a free action.  The character may negate any penalties incurred by his own or his partner's Frets.  Other situational penalties are halved.  If the character's Gratification score for the encounter is Extraordinary or higher, his relevant Frets are changed into the equivalent Fetishes instead.

15 Ranks Prowess - Open Romance
May be activated as a free action. The character’s partner(s) and onlookers appear unconcerned about wordly matters, losing themselves in the act of passion. All penalties or saves against Prowess checks based on physical circumstances (such as location) and social circumstances (such as prior commitments, vows and relationships) are ignored by the character and any partners they have until they Climax. Should the character break off from the act of passion, the effect will also end.


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## brevdravis (Jun 9, 2003)

*Question on your opinion, Sorn....(and another issue..)*

Just got  a couple quick querys,

So, what you're suggesting on the virginity issue is that the prowess check is (Most of the time) suffering the non-aroused +5 penalty?

I suppose that might cover the issue, and a considerate lover who takes the time would eliminate that problem.....  

Perhaps I should count it as "Awkward Circumstances" at least until the act is consummated.... the +2 to arousal checks would simulate the nervousness appropriately....

Number 2:  With regards to the save DC's.....  Here's a tricky one.  Suppose a lover rolls well enough to peak somebody instantly.  The save DC is a 15.  If that check is made (assuming the person wants to last a little longer...), should the person have to make a second check to avoid rising to Aroused?  If so, should the check be at the standard DC of 10?  I'm of the opinion that a check should be made, and it should be the same DC as to avoid rising to the higher state....(I mean, if the job was good enough to bring someone off instantly, they shouldn't be able to just make one save and poof, no problem...)  

The same check should be made for the REALLY high rolls that make someone come instantly or reach ecstacy instantly.  I think checks for each of the lower states should be made at the highest DC achieved rather than just one save and no problem.  We're talking about a trancendental experience here, not just a quick feel....

Stuart


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## Asher (Jun 9, 2003)

More Carnal Arts updates, this time for Techniques of the Halfling Harlot and Tricks of the Great Improviso.  Note that in the case of the latter, I've introduced the concept of "exotic proficiencies", which I'm offering up for consideration as a slight expansion of the core mechanics.

Exotic proficiencies are mostly for flavor and individuality.  They function as standard proficiencies of the same category (oral, penetrative, toys, etc.), but confer +1 Gratification point per discrete climax (ie, not for each round of extended climax).  The downside to their use is a partner's potential aversion to trying strange, possibly "unnatural"-seeming new techniques.  For any prospective sexual partner, the character faces a 1 in 4 chance that the partner has a Fret associated with exotic techniques, making their use impractical.  (The character himself may have such a Fret, which also precludes him from taking any exotic proficiencies unless that Fret is somehow nullified.)

If the team likes this addition and considers it minimally disruptive of the rules while adding extra flavor and variety, we can put a bit of effort into describing a few example exotic proficiencies for each category.


TECHNIQUES OF THE HALFLING HARLOT
Legends state that the Art of the Halfling Harlot is as old as the profession, which, being the oldest in the world, makes its origins hard to trace indeed. The Art flourishes within the halfling prostitution community, passed down to young escorts as an essential survival skill as much as anything else; outsiders are free to learn it, but its limited application means that they seldom ask.

3 Ranks Prowess - Accomodation
May be activated before testing for damage under the Size Matters rules. The character automatically passes their Fortitude saves to minimise damage under the Size Matters rules. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

3 Ranks Prowess - Readiness
The character ignores situational penalties to become Aroused.  Alternately, the character may expend one use of this ability to become Aroused as a free action.  This ability is instantaneous.

6 Ranks Prowess - Relaxation
y be activated as a free action. Allows character to increase the effective size of one of their orifices by half a size category for the purposes of the Size Matters rules. When the character reaches 12 ranks of Prowess, the size may be increased in such a manner by a whole size category. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Selflessness
May be activated at the start of a combat turn, when in a situation where both partners are actively making Prowess checks against each other. For the remainder of this turn, the character may get a bonus of up to twice their Con bonus to their Prowess rolls - all Prowess checks made against the character this turn receive an equal penalty. This ability continues until the character Climaxes, although the penalties taken can be changed each turn.

9 Ranks Prowess - Suffering
May be activated before taking damage as part of sexual congress. For the purposes of any partners or onlookers with the Sadism fetish, treat the damage as the maximum possible incurred (maximum value for damage rolls, treat Fort saves as if they were failed, and so on), regardless of how much is actually dealt. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Obedience
May be activated as a free action.  The character gains limited prowess (apply 1/2 Prowess ranks) in any proficiency a partner instructs the character to perform.  This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

12 Ranks Prowess - Histrionics
May be activated as a free action.  When engaged in sexual activity, the character makes Prowess checks against all sexually compatible persons within visual/audible range, rolling results on the Mental Arousal table.  If the character is actively making Prowess checks against a partner, she adds that Prowess check to the additional one and applies the result to the Mental Arousal table.  This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

12 Ranks Prowess - Resistance
The character rolls twice to resist contracting sexually transmitted diseases, taking the higher of the two results.

15 Ranks Prowess - Melodrama
May be activated as a free action. All partners and onlookers gain the Sadism fetish until they Climax - should the character break off sexual activity, the effects of this maneouvre will also end.


TRICKS OF THE GREAT IMPROVISO
The sad demise of the gnome known only as the Improviso (and, since, the Great Improviso) was recorded less than a hundred years ago. The legendary arcanalist walked the world dabbling in the sensual arts, and his desire to acquire undisclosed knowledge is equalled only by his urge to pass it on - the Naughtie Works of the Improviso has since been etched in more than a dozen languages and circulated across the Great Wheel. For those who can afford the time to study it and the intellect to understand it, the Naughtie Works provide many useful nuggets of information.

3 Ranks Prowess - Imagination
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Int bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

3 Ranks Prowess - Erotic Lore
The character gains two Exotic proficiencies.  A character may take this Art multiple times, gaining two new proficiencies each time.

6 Ranks Prowess - Quick Study
May be activated as a free action.  Each round after the first that the character uses a particular Mental proficiency against a partner, the character gains a cumulative +2 to the Prowess check, up to a maximum bonus equal to 2x the character's INT bonus.  The bonus is lost if the character switches proficiencies.  This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Adaptability
May be activated as a free action. The character halves penalties for making Prowess checks against creatures of a different Type - that is to say that such checks are at only -2. When the character achieves 12 ranks of Prowess, the penalty is removed entirely. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Improvisation
May be activated as a free action. The character may apply their Prowess bonus to the use of any non-exotic proficiency, regardless of whether they are proficient in it or not. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Subtlety
May be activated before beginning a Prowess check using a Caress proficiency. The character making the check is so subtle that the recipient must make a Sense Motive check (DC: Prowess check result) to notice that they are doing so. This may be used to make Prowess checks against a partner that consents to basic bodily contact, provided they remain within 5ft for the course of the extended round - should they pass their check, however, they snatch away and the effect of the Prowess check is negated. This ability lasts for one extended round.

12 Ranks Prowess - Mind Games
May be activated after making a Prowess check against a partner. Unless the partner can resist (See Table 1-05: Resisting Horniness), they are fooled into becoming ever more passionate and their physical Arousal spawns mental Horniness - an Aroused partner also becomes Horny, a Peaked partner also becomes Lustful, and a Climaxed or Ecstatic partner also becomes Delirious. These effects last for as long as the status conditions do, and may not be willingly stopped by the character performing the maneouvre.

12 Ranks Prowess - Instruction
May be activated as a free action.  The character may spend one round instructing a partner in the use of a non-exotic proficiency.  The partner gains the use of that proficiency -- against the character only -- for the duration of the encounter.  At 15 ranks of Prowess, the character may instruct partners in the use of exotic proficiencies.


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## brevdravis (Jun 9, 2003)

*regarding the arts...*

I don't know how many new rules we want to add here.  While your idea's are fine, Asher, I just worry about adding too many new mechanics before we have the basics hammered out.

Plus, I worry that with too many options for each art, we may lose the focus of each.  (I guess what I mean is that they seem to all have a specific focus, and adding a lot of options may lose the feel...)

Stuart


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## Sorn (Jun 9, 2003)

*Virginity...* I don't think we need any modifiers at all. As virgins, they shouldn't have any ranks in Prowess (or only very few). That eliminates any reasonable bonus, which leads to clumsy attempts at having sex. Hence, the mechanics already handle any first-time issues. 

I'd rather not add modifiers and rules to cover every possibility. Virginity will only come up once (unless you use Regeneration all the time). Being a guy, I don't know how bad the pain is, but loss of hitpoints seems a little extreme. If we go that route, Jenny Commoner with a bad Con score could be killed when she loses her virginity. I don't think so. At most, make it 1d2 points of subdual damage. 

*Carnal Arts...* Personally, I have to concur with bredavis here. Instead of expanding the carnal arts we have right now, take your additions and turn them into additional carnal arts. But that's just me... I'll go with the majority on that one.


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## brevdravis (Jun 9, 2003)

*Heh....*

Thanks for the feedback Sorn!

Ok, 1D2 subdual sounds fine.  That gives a very minor penalty, and accounts for everything.  (Jenny commoner with a bad con score will probably not die from losing her virginity....  However, A really bad roll on her hit points means she might pass out if it's a bad experience. But then again, somebody like that will pass out from a strong wind already.....)

Stuart


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## Asher (Jun 9, 2003)

It was actually my intent to maintain the focus of the current Carnal Arts instead of making them more diffuse.  For example, Flowers of the Decadent Blossom is a DEX-based Art, but it's not just about how dexterous the character is in bed.  It has the flavor of the rather decadent society that invented it.  A different Carnal Art might also be DEX-based but have a different flavor altogether.

Similarly, Techniques of the Halfling Harlot is a CON-based Art, but it isn't merely about increasing a character's sexual endurance.  It has a sort of kinky SM aspect to it, so I attempted to add some abilities that went along with that theme.

Basically, I agree that we need to keep the focus of each Carnal Art -- and yes, adding new abilities to them carries with it the risk of making them too generalized.  On the other hand, I really dislike the almost single-track progression some of the Arts have in their current forms.  If I were a player musing over whether to spend one of my character's precious feats on a Carnal Art, I'd be put off by the current paucity of options.  Just my subjective opinion, of course.  Any other comments?


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## VVrayven (Jun 9, 2003)

Hello all. Wow, some people seem to have been talking. I'm kinda waiting in the wings until DbS finishes all his stuff, then I fully intend to help with preg rules, but my new key focus will be on finaliazing clothing and more importantly SPELLS!

Asher, great ideas, however. I must concur with my friends. I believe the feats should not allow a big area of choice. I believe they should be ONE TRACK entities and not allow options along the way except for our Veteran's Knack one, which is a special case. One reason for this is bookkeeping. Two is keeping in the spirit of 3e. Three, I don't think the variety is neccessary to make the feat attractive. I would like to see you apply your skills into new arts and perhaps writing more flavor text for the existing arts. We need more of both.

As for virginity, sorn is _mostly_ correct. I say we add a sidebar with a few options, and recommend that it simply add up to an unusual circumstances penalty for 1d4 rounds. For the most part this is something that should be roleplayed and not roll-played. Subdual damage is just silly. 



> Number 2: With regards to the save DC's..... Here's a tricky one. Suppose a lover rolls well enough to peak somebody instantly. The save DC is a 15. If that check is made (assuming the person wants to last a little longer...), should the person have to make a second check to avoid rising to Aroused? If so, should the check be at the standard DC of 10? I'm of the opinion that a check should be made, and it should be the same DC as to avoid rising to the higher state....(I mean, if the job was good enough to bring someone off instantly, they shouldn't be able to just make one save and poof, no problem...)




Actually, I'm against the "Cascading Saves" idea. This is for a number of reasons. 1) If you can resist the instant orgasm, I'd say you've resisted it all the way. 2) High level characters with a good will save will never miss the lower DCs where this will be a problem anyway. 3) Lowering resistances should be something special, it should be easy to resist without special talent, regardless of rank bonus)

While I am reluctant to add new rules, especially at this point, I still really think we need at least common sense quick side bar that points out how to fatigue characters that go for a couple hours making love without climax...

Another interesting point. Perform in 3.5 is being changed. It will not longer work under a prof system, but support some new system, presumably just like the knowledge skill. This makes our prowess have little precident for usage. However, I'd say we should stick with what we have as we are this deep into the project.

Yea! I get to be HEx Mistrees! <evil grin> See ya later, boys.


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## Sorn (Jun 9, 2003)

Hey there HEx Mistress... 

Sidebar for virginity sounds like a good idea. 

Before we move on to pregnancy, spells, etc. how do the current rules mesh with the soft-focus rules? I think we should iron that out before we go anywhere. Especially in the spells chapter, we might have to include references on how a given spell works when used with a soft-focus roll. 

Hmm... first I heard about Perform being revised. I would imagine it will go the same route they went in d20Modern...


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## VVrayven (Jun 10, 2003)

Doh! Of course Soft Focus comes first! I'll volenteer all my Java skills as I think they will be valubale to the coming discussion.  Thanks Sorn, can always count on you to catch the good stuff.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 10, 2003)

Wotcher,

VVrayven, I would be glad to participate in your Hentai supplement, and my creative skills will be at your command. It’s nice to have some direction once this monumental project is brought to term, and I think it’s a fitting addition (as well as more exciting than a d20 modern conversion).

Finally got the Sexual Alignment and Kinks systems sorted out. Phew. See below.

* * *

SEXUAL ALIGNMENT
All characters have a sexual alignment, in addition to their conventional alignment, gauging the power and direction of their libido. It is impossible to chart the depths of a person’s passion using this system, much as conventional alignments give little insight to a person’s philosophical standing. Instead, sexual alignment gives necessary mechanics, leaving the nature of a person’s tastes and attitudes to the players themselves.

Sexual alignments are composed of two facets: a drive, representing the extent to which a person surrenders to their libido, and an orientation, displaying their preferrence in gender. Kinks, particular likes & dislikes, build up these (see section below).

Drive
Abstinent – Abstinent characters have better things to do with their time than indulge in petty hedonism. They may be focused on their cause, adamant in their self-control or simply fearful of social disapproval. They avoid sexual situations, and are often disdainful of those with less restraint than themselves.
Moderant – Moderant characters are indeed sexual beings, but are not foolish enough to let their desires hold sway over them. They welcome an opportunity to exercise their passions, but sexuality is far from the be-all and end-all of life.
Indulgent – Indulgent characters embrace their sexuality as a major, if not defining, factor of themselves and seek to gratify their urges whenever the opportunity presents itself. Those that repress their deepest feelings for whatever peculiar reasons are looked at with some confusion – why would they deny themselves to such an extent?

Orientation
Gyno – Gyno characters are solely interested in the company of women; they are horrified and disgusted by the thought of sexual activity with men, treating them as an unaccepted gender for the purposes of Prowess checks.
Bi-Gyno – Bi-Gyno characters prefer the company of women, and usually seek them exclusively. Attitudes to sexual activity with men range from inquisitiveness to disinterest, treating them as of an unpreferred gender for the purposes of Prowess checks.
Bi – Bi characters may have a preference between men and women, but are essentially open to activity with everyone. They can be considered ‘sexually ambidextrous’ in that they can swing both ways without penalty.
Bi-Andro - Bi-Andro characters prefer the company of men, and usually seek them exclusively. Attitudes to sexual activity with women range from inquisitiveness to disinterest, treating them as of an unpreferred gender for the purposes of Prowess checks.
Andro - Andro characters are solely interested in the company of men; they are horrified and disgusted by the thought of sexual activity with women, treating them as an unaccepted gender for the purposes of Prowess checks.

Sample Alignment
Apollo Whiteheart (LN) is a 27-year-old human, possessed of muscular build and a shock of black hair. He comes across to his comrades as an ardent warrior whose only concern is for battle, never relinquishing in the face of his opponents and possessed of unbounded camaraderie. Below this solid exterior, however, Apollo’s love is not for combat but his male comrades (Andro). It is this repressed aspect that inspires his valiance in battle, but he does his best not to let his emotional concerns control him (Abstinent).

Conventional and Sexual Alignment (sidebar)
Whilst there are no fixed rules regarding the matter, a person’s ethical alignment may give some insight into their sexual one. A person’s libido is a haphazard, unpredictable force that defies attempts to analyse or control it, and hence is more prevalent amongst chaotic characters; lawful characters tend to repress their sexualities as an undesirable aspect of their mentality, or stratify and clarify it toward the andro- and gyno- orientations. Moral alignments offer fewer guidelines, but evil characters have a stronger tendency to sate themselves on the fulfilment that sexuality can provide at the expense of others, whilst good characters may mute their desires out of concern for the implications for their partners.

KINKS
Whilst a character’s basic sexual alignment gives an overall picture of a person’s desires, kinks highlight particular likes (fetishes) and dislikes (frets) of a person that deviates from the norm. Kinks are displayed by the type of kink (fetish or fret), followed by the subject of the kink, such as Fetish: wands or Fret: commitment.

Kink Potency
All fetishes and frets have a kink potency, representing the sway it holds over your character and its predominance in their mind. Those kinks arising from mundane means typically have a Potency of between 1 and 3; magically-induced kinks may double these numbers. The effect of Potency is described under Fetishes and Frets, below.

Fetishes
These are unusual desires for a given act, object, creature, concept or circumstance. Viewing the subject of the fetish (or things reminiscent of it) causes the character to become Horny unless the character can resist with a Will save (DC: 10 + Potency). Extensive contact or viewing the subject in a sexual manner may increase the DC, at the GM’s discretion. When the subject of a character’s fetish is incorporated into sexual activity, Prowess checks made against the character receive a kink bonus equal to the Potency of the fetish.

Optional Rule: Compulsion (sidebar)
Not having the opportunity to exercise their fetish is a disheartening thing for a character. Every time increment (see Table 5-XX: Compulsions) during which a character does not have sexual activity involving their fetish, they must make a Will save (DC: 10 + Potency) or suffer a cumulative –1 morale penalty to all saves. Each further increment requires another Will save or the morale penalty increases by 1, up to a maximum of the Kink’s Potency. Coming into sexual contact with the subject of the fetish negates all of these penalties.

Table 5-XX: Compulsions
Fetish Potency / Period before test
1 / one year
2 / one month
3 / one week
4 / one day
5 / one hour
6 / 10 minutes

Special Fetishes
These are particular fetishes that carry exceptions to the rules above.
Danger – Prowess checks against characters with a fetish for danger do not suffer circumstantial modifiers for dangerous circumstances (instead receiving a kink bonus equal to the fetish’s Potency), although those against their partner may. Penalties for awkward circumstances may still apply. Rather hazardously, being placed in mortal danger requires a Will save (DC: 5 + Potency) to avoid the character becoming Horny.
Exhibition – Prowess checks against characters with a fetish for danger do not suffer circumstantial modifiers for awkward circumstances due to public awareness (instead receiving a kink bonus equal to the fetish’s Potency), although those against their partner may. Penalties for dangerous circumstances may still apply.
Masochism – Prowess checks against characters with masochism do not suffer penalties for damage inflicted, instead receiving the modifier as a bonus instead. Being hurt does not enforce a Will save to avoid Horniness, but being hurt in a sexual environment does.
Nymphomania/Satyriasis – All Prowess checks made against characters with Nymphomania (female) or Satyriasis (male) receive a +1 kink bonus. Any sexual insinuation, joke or opportunity makes the character Horny unless a Will save (DC 15 + Potency) can be made. Nymphomania and Satyriasis add two to the fetish’s Potency for the purpose of determining compulsion (see sidebar).
Sadism – When a partner receives damage during an extended round, characters with sadism receives the penalty they would have received as a bonus to Prowess checks made against them. Seeing others being hurt does not enforce a Will save to avoid Horniness, but seeing them being hurt in a sexual environment does.

Frets
These are acts, objects, creatures, concepts or circumstances that revolt and disgust a character. Viewing the subject of the fret (or things reminiscent of it) causes the character to lose all Horniness unless the character can resist with a Will save (DC: 10 + Potency). Extensive contact or viewing the subject in a sexual manner may increase the DC, at the GM’s discretion. When the subject of a character’s fret is incorporated into sexual activity, Prowess checks made against the character have a kink penalty equal to the Potency of the fret.

Determining Kinks (large sidebar)
Assigning kinks to a character is an awkward proposition. As GM, first give the option to each player to decide their character’s kinks for them, based on the character’s concept. Some will prefer to do this, but the process is both mentally taxing and tends to make people think the player is as perverted as they make their character. Should your player prefer not to, else if they come back with unsatisfactory ideas, allow them to roll on Table 5-XX3: Kinks by Ethical Alignment. This is a table based on a character’s ethical alignment, assuming that more chaotic characters will have more varied desires. When you have the number and Potency of kinks decided, allow the character to choose what subjects to assign them, roll randomly on Tables 5-XX4 and 5-XX5, or some combination of the two.

5-XX3: Kinks by Ethical Alignment
Roll a d100 on the table below until informed to stop rolling. Results show whether kink is a fetish or fret, and the Potency of the kink.
d100 roll / Lawful / Neutral / Chaotic
01-05 / Fetish 1 / Fetish 1 / Fetish 1
06-10 / Fetish 2 / Fetish 1 / Fetish 1
11-15 / Fetish 3 / Fetish 2 / Fetish 1
16-20 / Stop rolling / Fetish 2 / Fetish 2
21-30 / Stop rolling / Fetish 3 / Fetish 2
31-45 / Stop rolling / Stop rolling / Fetish 3
46-85 / Stop rolling / Stop rolling / Stop rolling
86-90 / Fret 1 / Fret 1 / Fret 1
91-95 / Fret 2 / Fret 2 / Fret 2
96-00 / Fret 3 / Fret 3 / Fret 3

5-XX4: Random Fetish Subjects
d100 Fetish
(open to ideas – post all you can think of)

5-XX5: Random Fret Subjects
d100 Fret
(open to ideas – post all you can think of)

* * *

There we are. Comments, suggestions, recommendations and straight praise are overwhelmingly welcomed, as is anything that you can contribute by way of fetish and fret subjects (I’m hoping to amass 100 of each... post everything, the good, bad and the downright ugly).

Che... *slump*


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 10, 2003)

Having recovered, I thought I’d put some thought to the issue of spell lists; I came up with the following issues I would like to discuss with the forum.

A) Style – a suggestion has been made that a glimmer of the humour of the original guide should be preserved through the spells and magic items. I would disagree with this; it would make the Guide seem diffuse, with one half seeming too serious and the other too silly. Whilst spells may have potentially silly applications, I think we should keep the majority fairly sensible.
B) System – we should give thought as to how the spells will fit in with the magic system as a whole. Bear in mind that any divine spells we add are essentially ‘free’ options to clerics and druids. Are we going to have specific ‘carnalised’ classes a la the DbS conversion, with some spells available at higher levels to other characters, or are they simply going to be added on to existing spell lists? I would recommend that the majority of addition to divine spells is in the form of domains, to allow clerics to focus on sexual magic without making it available to everyone.
C) Method – what are we going to take as our basis when working out spell lists? We could use the existing d20 conversion and work toward wangling the spells to our own system and instilling some sense of game balance, or we could use the DbS conversion’s lists (which use a similar core mechanic), edit the silliness out of affairs and add necessary spells.

Oh, and as regards clothing, I would suggest something along the lines of the following:
* 5 Clothing types – Lace, Light, Medium, Heavy, and Armour. Most clothing falls in the middle three categories, where penalties are applied to Caress and other physical Proficiencies are impossible. No penalties for Lace, all proficiencies impossible vs. Armour.
* Additional price on armour allows ‘remove hastily’ to expose body areas and allows physical proficiencies to be used freely, halving AC bonus whilst open (round down).
* Clothing imposes anything up to a +/- 2 modifier on social checks, according to your company. Fancy clothing looks out of place amongst commoners, whilst burlap sacks aren’t in vogue in most high society events.
* Quite a few options, each as a complete ‘outfit’ with descriptions of clothing involved. Clothing usually donned/removed in a minute, unless Escape Artist is used.

Hope my thoughts help,

DbS


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## Sorn (Jun 10, 2003)

DbS, nice job on the alignment and kinks. I am putting it on the site right now. 

*Style*: Please keep some humor in. I am not talking slapstick. But a little bit of fun is necessary. 



*System/Method*: Let's work those spells into the existing system and make them available to everybody. Spells and magic items are the easiest to introduce into an existing game. If people need to have a custom class to cast a given spell, it will most likely not be used at all. This will only lead to one thing: the GUCK will end up collecting dust in some forgotten folder on someone's hard-drive. 

Cleric domains are one way of handling it. But I think that there should be at least a handful of spells that go into the general cleric/druid lists. People will choose their domains early on, and unless you take a PrC, you won't get another one. So you'd bar an existing cleric from spells that might be a perfect fit. 

That being said, we should put a paragraph or sidebar at the beginning of the spells chapter. Therein, it should be stressed that these spells are somewhat rare. All players should consult their DM's before using any of them. Most of the spells won't be available on the market (scrolls, potions, etc) for a caster to pick up. 

We can close out that chapter by adding a few erotic tomes. Makes it easy for the DM to introduce new spells. Think of the instruction manual in American Pie, or an edition of the Kama Sutra with hidden spells. 

Now... quick rant about custom spell lists... BAD IDEA. One of the big strengths of the d20 system is portability. I can take a feat from a WotC book, a spell from Malhavoc Press, a PrC from a Mongoose sourcebook and they will all work together. As soon as you make a custom spell list for a new class, you will lose this portability. 

Example... a few weeks ago, I was creating a necromancer character. I came across Secret College of Necromancy, which has a Necromancer Core Class. Cool. Not a bad class. Then I realized they had a custom spell list. Well, the spells in the list fit the class. True, but then I go and open up any other d20 book, and there are no spells for the Necromancer Core Class. 

Any spellcasting core class from the PHB gets new spells with almost every d20 supplement that comes out on the market. Unless there is a follow-up from the original publisher, there won't be any new spells for any classes with a custom spell list. 

Things could probably be ported over to any non-standard spell lists, but why create a lot of work? The majority of d20 gamers uses the core classes and the magic system outlined in the PHB. Since we are making a d20 supplement, let's cater to our audience. The few that use non-standard classes/spell lists will already know how to port things over, so no biggie.


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## brevdravis (Jun 10, 2003)

*Sorry to bring this idea up so late...*

Ok, thanks for your opinions on the last couple of ideas.  I appreciate the feedback.

I was doing some thinking on the Male gratification issue.  Right now, let's be honest, we're giving male characters a little to much credit in the staying power area.

Con score climax before exhaustion is too much.

BUT, resetting back to the Con bonus +1 screws up the equality.

I say we put it back to how it was before, but allow male characters to gain gratification from other sources.

Here's my tentative ideas.  They mess with the current climax save rules a little but I think they reflect male sexuality better.

Holding back:  When a male character chooses to make a save versus climax and succeeds, he immediately gains .5 gratification points.  However, his next save is at a -1 penalty, and the gratification points only apply upon his next climax.  If a round goes by without a save being made, the additional gratification points are lost. (For example, a guy who holds back four extended rounds will gain 2 additional gratification points from his next climax.)  This represents the fact that men get gratification from the buildup to climax, and not just from orgasm.  (The assumption is that the saves are representative of the partners skill in pleasing the male.)

Superficial males:  Despite men who claim to be just after a girl for her personality, men derive greater satisfaction from sleeping with an attractive woman than an unattractive woman.  As a result, Males add or subtract their partner's charisma bonus or penalty from their total gratification for the encounter.

Sorry to bring this one up so late,  I think the gratification system we have now is great, but just a little tweaking might make it fantastic.

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 10, 2003)

*With regards to everybody's posts.*

Ok, There was a lot of ground covered, so here we go with my take on them all.

The durn Virginity issue that I need to shut up about:  Agreed, sidebar. 

Carnal arts:  I have no problem with adding NEW arts, but I still think expanding the existing ones is a bad idea.  Giving a HUGE number of options for a feat is a little much, considering that feats generally allow you to do ONE thing.  We're already being a little generous.

Cascading saves:  Ok, sure, I understand what you're saying there.  You're right.  Too many saves would slow it down.  And yah, it represents resisting the ENTIRE effect, not just a part of it.(However, for the HEx, I'm bringing this issue up again for the discussion of NC.)

Soft Focus:  Personally I think we shouldn't spend TOO much time on soft focus.  Right off the bat, it's a sidebar.   I think if Javagirl can give us a quick rundown of how it's working, then we can do whatever tweaks are necessary.

Alignment:  WOAH! Nice going there.  Looks good to me, and the tables are fair.  (Just did a quick check with my dice, and they aren't rolling too ridiculous numbers.)  My next post will have a few frets and kinks for yah.

Clothing:  I think we may want to add one or two things to the prowess tables for this.  Specifically, I'm thinking that we might want to add : Stripping (Type of clothing)  To allow somebody to make a prowess check while removing clothing.  (We may have a few others for the HEx as well...)

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 10, 2003)

*Virginity Sidebar (First Draft)*

*Virginity, (and Losing it.)* (Optional Rules)

Throughout time much has been made of the pain involved with a woman losing her virginity.  This has numerous factors involved, all of which contribute to the overall effect.  For game purposes, when a female character is penetrated the first time, it counts as "Awkward Circumstances" for 1D4 extended rounds.  


There we go, how do you all feel about that for the sidebar?

Stuart


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## Bastoche (Jun 10, 2003)

*Re: Sorry to bring this idea up so late...*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *
> Holding back:  When a male character chooses to make a save versus climax and succeeds, he immediately gains .5 gratification points.  However, his next save is at a -1 penalty, and the gratification points only apply upon his next climax.  If a round goes by without a save being made, the additional gratification points are lost. (For example, a guy who holds back four extended rounds will gain 2 additional gratification points from his next climax.)  This represents the fact that men get gratification from the buildup to climax, and not just from orgasm.  (The assumption is that the saves are representative of the partners skill in pleasing the male.)
> *




My understanding of the rules is that "holding back" is the default action.



> *
> Superficial males:  Despite men who claim to be just after a girl for her personality, men derive greater satisfaction from sleeping with an attractive woman than an unattractive woman.  As a result, Males add or subtract their partner's charisma bonus or penalty from their total gratification for the encounter.
> *




I'm not sure I get the point. Do you imply this should apply for every male character ?


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## brevdravis (Jun 10, 2003)

*Fetish and Fret suggestion....*

And now, I'll drop a bunch of these in, so we can get the table ready.  In no particular order, just as they come to me....

1.Blondes
2.Brunettes
3.Redheads
4.Light Skin Tones
5.Dark Skin Tones
6.Large Noses
7.Small Noses
8.Large Buttocks
9.Large Breasts
10. Just Hair...
11. Leather
12. Decollatage (Garments with low cut neck line)
13. Tight Shirts
14. Barbarians
15. Fighters
16. Monks
17. Paladins
18. Clerics
19. Wizards
20. Sorcerers.
21. Rangers
22. Rogues
23. Bards
24. Commoners.
25. Aristocrats.
26. Adepts
27. Warriors  (We could combine all the last 13 into a sub-table, maybe "Specific Class")
28. Bondage
29. Sleeping/Unconciousness
30. Tight Pants.
31. Voyerism
32. Statues (Pygmalionism...)
33. Dirt/ being dirty...
34. Non-consensual situations.
35. Scat....(Yuck, just including for completeness...I think I have fret 2 in this one)
36. Urine... (again, personally, YUCK....)
37. Feet

Those are the first right off the top of my head.....
Feel free to add.

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 10, 2003)

Well, from what I understand, the save is always an option, but a male does not HAVE to take it.  I'm just trying to make the gratification a little more in line, without giving men 12+ climaxes with very little penalty.

As to yer second question, I was thinking that it should apply to all males.  I mean, which is an average man going to consider the better experience: A night long marathon with a half-orc strumpet, or the quickie with a nymph....  Even if he only got off once with the nymph....

Stuart


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## VVrayven (Jun 10, 2003)

Wow. Lots of stuff. 

DbS: Excellent work. Do you not like the existing clothing rules and want to move to a simpler system? I love the Fret/Fetish system and I look forward to your input and help with HEx.  I'm also all for editing the existing network of spells on the site, and I agree with you in total about the other spell issues, we think very much alike. 

Sorn: Good summary. 

brevdavis: Excellent list of fetish notes, and a fairly good virginity sidebar, Sorn if you would capture both. Glad you agree about Cascading saves, as for what we are doing with NC and saves... <big grin> You'll just have to wait, as I have a great idea and another easy system planned.  But, I'm sure you will like it. As for the males... I don't think the system is too nice to you guys. If anything, the recovery period is too nice. I've known guys that can go again just fine as long as they can get aroused again. I don't think the grat tables need changing nor does the exhaustion system. This is fantasy, and our real world model works nicely at level one commoner... If you still disagree I might be willing to discuss making the recovery period longer or perhaps increasing it's penalty. I dislike the "holding back" and "suferficial males" subrules, for the above reasons and because I believe they add yet another level of complexity. Good thoughts, though brevdavis.

Soft Focus rules are currently in the works and running on my test platform. I'll need some time with these and I want to include a special note in each spell description (where appropriate) that explains the spells effect with soft focus rules. The same SHOULD be done with Carnal Arts, but I might not be that ambious, we'll see. Please, hold back on detail questions for now, but if you have a macro question about soft focus, feel free to ask. 

C-ya Boys, VVrayen (M/BB,CG,JavaGirl 10)


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## Kahuna Burger (Jun 10, 2003)

In terms of fetishes, you may want to find a short and tasteful way to distinguish between non consensuality and bondage/domination. There is a world of difference between a top and a rapist, IME. (Similarly, a bottom is unlikely to be aroused by attempted rape.) I'm not sure which the "non-consensual" fetish is meant to represent, and it could get very akward if a player and DM interpreted it differently.

Kahuna Burger


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## Kahuna Burger (Jun 10, 2003)

Double post due to posting problems. In other news, an easy way to facilitate the random selection idea would be to list the more "benign" kinks first in the list and recomend a d20 to choose random kinks/frets. (unless the player is very experimental, I imagine discovering that his character likes leather and natural suroundings is going to be easier to casually roleplay than discovering that he's ended up with a character whose "primary interest are rape, ultraviolence and Beethoven"...)

Kahuna Burger


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## brevdravis (Jun 10, 2003)

*Last post for today, I swear*

Ok,

Just an idea.  Thanks for the honest opinions.  I agree we should be moving along, just wanted to toss it in there and see if anyone bit....  

As far as the clarification goes as to non-consensual versus top,

how bout a few different fetishes then?

34. Non-consensual situations (Actual non-consent and not the appearance of it.)
38.  Domination (Being a "top", or being in control)
39.  Submission (Being a "bottom, or giving up control)

and since they just came to me...

40. Specific  Demi-human race: (Elf, half-elf, Orc, Half-orc, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, Aasimar, Etc.) (Sub-table)
41.  Magic.  (Just magic in general, not necessarily a class)
42.  Blood.  (For those Anne Rice fans...)
43.  Pregnancy
44.  Opulent surroundings.  (Gothic romance type fetish involving the setting being perfect.
45.  Squalid surroundings. (For those who enjoy "slumming it")
46.  Specific Monster type.  (ALMOST HEx, but we aren't suggesting actual sex with the monster, just that they get turned on by it being nearby.  Somebody who gets turned on by Dragons, for example might get aroused sneaking into a dragons lair....)  HEx version will be different....    (By monster subtable, like Abberant, Humanoid, Non-humanoid, ooze, etc...)
47.  Incest
48.  Fur, or animal-like attributes.  (Saw a documentary on furries recently....)
49.  Specific Animal-type.  (Get your mind out of the gutter.  I'm talking about the gal who gets turned on while riding a horse)
50.  Violence.  (Not sexual violence or rape)
51.  Specific Weapon type.  (Oh those freudian jokes...)

That's about it for now, have fun with em...

Stuart


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 11, 2003)

Good thoughts from all, and thank you for your contributions.

Brevdavis: Nice contributions on fetishes. I’ve written up some provisional kink ideas using your thoughts and a few things that occured to me. See below for details.

Kahuna: Good points, both of them. It would be very helpful if you could select/suggest 20 kinks for the d20 list you recommended from those below and those you can think of.

VVrayven: I look forward to your findings. I would advocate a simpler clothing system, but bear in mind my suggestions are just those: make the mechanics as detailed, concise, similar or different as you like.

Regarding spells, I would say that the vast majority of ‘specific effect’ spells would have no effect on Soft Focus rolls – mostly from a game balance angle. Pretty much as many spells as is desired could be added to the Sor/Wiz spell selection, but keep Cleric, Druid and Paladin spells fairly thin on the ground, with a few domains. Oh, and I recommend working from the DbS spell lists, deleting the silly and unnecessary ones and adding in those that are needed, rather than trying to instill some balance into the d20 conversion lists. But then I’m just biased.

I’m unsure, exactly, how much of a burden you are taking upon yourself. Are you going to produce an entire edited spell and clothing list in a week? Would you work better left to your own devices or would you prefer it if the forum lent a hand in the process? Anyways, I look forward to your contributions.

*Provisional Kink Ideas*
Nymphomania/Satyriasis
Danger
Exhibition
Masochism
Sadism
Domination
Submission
Blondes
Brunettes
Redheads
Hair
Light skin
Dark skin
Buttocks
Breasts
Lips
Feet
Tentacles
Cleavage
Leather
Tight clothing
Bondage
Warriors
Priests
Criminals
Monks
Knights
Mages
Woodspeople
Aristocrats
Commoners
Sleep
Voyeurism
Statues
Dirtiness
Opulence
Elves
Orcs
Dwarves
Gnomes
Halflings
Humans
Celestials
Demons
Devils
Dragons
Gods
Insects
Horses
Cats
Dogs
Rodents
Snakes
Lizards
Fur
Plants
Vegetables
Magic
Metal
Nature
Pregnancy
Virginity
Gentle sex
Rough sex
Violence
Rape
Blood
Fire
Urine & Faeces

I would also recommend a sidebar: How to Apply Kinks, recommending that GMs apply kinks conceptually rather than literally, and as rationally (and sparingly) as possible so that players maintain a sense of control over their characters.

That just about wraps it up for now,

DbS


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## Bastoche (Jun 11, 2003)

brevdravis said:
			
		

> *Well, from what I understand, the save is always an option, but a male does not HAVE to take it.  I'm just trying to make the gratification a little more in line, without giving men 12+ climaxes with very little penalty.*




In line with what?

*



			As to yer second question, I was thinking that it should apply to all males.  I mean, which is an average man going to consider the better experience: A night long marathon with a half-orc strumpet, or the quickie with a nymph....  Even if he only got off once with the nymph....
		
Click to expand...


*
Ok. Then I totally and absolutly disagree on this.


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## brevdravis (Jun 11, 2003)

*Never mind...just an idea*

The gratification revamp was just an idea.... Since most people dislike it, I withdraw it....

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 11, 2003)

*AND my wife pointed this one out....*

That I forgot to list my own kinks in the list, how dumb can ya get....

52.  Group sex....
53.  Swashbuckling/ Heroism
54.  Artwork/Artists (Not necessarily pornographic.)


There we go with a few more...
Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 11, 2003)

*1st draft of fetish/fret table....*

Ok, here's my idea.  We have the first table, and then if they roll a nat 20, we go over to the d100 list.  That table isn't done yet, but I'm working on it.

The subtables aren't done either , but I'll take a stab at them next.

Fetish/Fret Table.  (D20)

1. Specific Hair Color.  (Roll on Subtable 1)
2. Specific Skin Tone.  (Roll on Subtable 2)
3. Specific Material.  (Roll on Subtable 3)
4. Specific Class.  (Roll on Subtable 4)
5. Specific Armor Type.  (Roll on Subtable 5)
6. Specific Weapon.  (Roll on Subtable 6)
7. Specific Body Part. (Roll on Subtable 7)
8. Specific Animal.  (Roll on Subtable 8)
9. Specific Sex Act. (Roll on Subtable 9)
10. Specific Demi-human Type (Roll on Subtable 10)
11. Specific Surroundings. (Roll on subtable 11)
12. Specific Condition. (Roll on Subtable 12)
13. Specific Plant type. (Roll on Subtable 13)
14. Danger
15. Voyerism
16. Exhibitionism
17. Sadism/Masochism (Roll a D2 to determine which.)
18. Nymphomania/Satyriasis (Depends on Gender.  If rolled for a fret, All bonuses become penalties.)
19. Multiple Partners
20. Unusual Fetish/Fret.  Roll on the Unusual Fetish table. (D100)


Will get around to posting the Subtables, but I think this is a good start.

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 11, 2003)

*Subtables 1-5*

Subtable 1- Hair Color (Roll D10)

1. Redheads
2. Blondes
3. Brunettes (Does not include Blue-Black)
4. Blue-Black
5. Grey/White
6. None/Bald
7. Vibrant Color (Red/Green/Blue, Player's Choice)
8. Extremely Long Hair (Color doesn't matter)
9. Short Hair (Color doesn't matter)
10. Body Hair.

Subtable 2- Skin Tones (D10)

1. Very Light/Milky Complexions
2. Very Dark/Ebony Complexions
3. Olive Skin/ Mediteranean look
4. Deep Tan
5. Light Tan
6. Dark/ Deep Brown Complexions
7. Albino
8. Smooth, unblemished.
9. Scars, rough skin.
10. Freckles

Subtable 3- Materials (D10)
1. Glass
2. Ceramics
3. Wood (Finished wood products, not in it's natural state)
4. Steel
5. Gold
6. Silver
7. Cloth (Not worn...)
8. Leather
9. Furs
10. Paper

Subtable 4- Specific Classes (D20- Disregard results of 16-20)
1. Barbarians
2. Bards
3. Clerics
4. Druids
5. Fighters
6. Monks
7. Rogues
8. Wizards
9. Sorcerers
10. Paladins
11. Rangers
12. Commoners
13. Aristocrats
14. Adepts
15. Warriors.

Subtable 5 - Armor Types
1. Leather Armor
2. Hide Armor
3. Chainmail
4. Plate mail
5. Magical protections (Rings, Bracers, Etc.)
6. Scale Armor
7. Spiky Armor (Includes Studded Leather)
8. Helmets
9. Revealing Armor
10. Full Plate Armor

Feel free to suggest changes to these, as It's only a first draft

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 11, 2003)

*Subtables 6- 9*

Subtable 6 - Weapons (D10)
1. Swords
2. Spears
3. Whips
4. Axes
5. Daggers/Knives
6. Clubs
7. Staves
8. Chains
9. Shields
10. Magical Weapons

Subtable 7 - Body Parts (D10)
1. Eyes
2. Lips
3. Arms
4. Hands
5. Legs
6. Feet
7. Buttocks
8. Stomach.
9. Breasts/Chest
10. Genitals.

Subtable 8 - Animals (D20)
1. Dogs
2. Cats
3. Horses
4. Lizards
5. Birds
6. Sheep
7. Fish
8. Insects
9. Snakes
10. Apes/Monkeys
11. Spiders
12. Big Cats (Lions, Etc)
13. Dolphins
14. Deer
15. Bears
16. Mice/Rats
17. Worms/ Slimy critters
18. Rabbits/ Beavers/ Other Small Herbivorous/Omniverous Mammals
19. Foxes/Minks/Ferrets/ Other Small Carnivorous Mammal
20. Frogs/ Other Amphibians

Subtable 9- Specific Sex Act (D10)
1. Oral
2. Anal
3. Standard Heterosexual Encounters
4. Interfemoral Intercourse
5. Breast Sex.
6. Masturbation
7. Lesbianism.
8. Gay sex.
9. Rough Sex.
10. Gentle Sex.

Still working on the first draft.  Feel Free to rip it a new one...

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 11, 2003)

*Subtable 10 -*

Subtable 10 - Specific Demi-human Race (D10)
1. Elves
2. Humans
3. Dwarfs
4. Gnomes
5. Halflings
6. Orcs
7. Bugbears/Goblins
8. Kobolds
9. Nymphs
10. Satyrs

Subtable 11 - Specific Surroundings (D10)
1. Opulent Surroundings
2. Squalid Surroundings
3. Outdoors/ Nature
4. Kitchen/ Food Preparation Areas
5. Bathrooms
6. Closets
7. Taverns
8. Churches
9. Castles
10. Dungeons

Subtable 12 - Specific Condition (D10)
1. Pregnancy
2. Virginity.
3. Heroics
4. Cowardice
5. Filth/ Being Dirty
6. Cleanliness
7. Sickness
8. Health/ Vigor
9. Anger
10. Sadness

Subtable 13 - Plant types (D10)
1. Trees
2. Shrubs
3. Seaweed
4. Flowers
5. Weeds
6. Vines
7. Fruits
8. Seeds
9. Carnivorous
10. Poisonous

PHEW..... That's about it for the Basic table.  I think we can get most of the other stuff onto the BIG list. (Including the ones I already posted.)

Hope you guys like these.....

Stuart


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## VVrayven (Jun 12, 2003)

DbS: Burden, yep that would be a big one. I drop my spell list idea. I do think the DM should have a discressionary flat bonus mod to any soft focus roll though, taking into account spell power and the like. I'm better left on my own with the SF rules for now. Fire away at the clothing issue. I have a present system that I like and it is one the webstie. If you want to revise and simplify, please do, you've never done wrong with one of my ideas.  Take care boys, I'm doing some figures and heading off to dreamland.


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## brevdravis (Jun 12, 2003)

*How bout this for soft focus- Borrowing from VVrayven's Idea*

How bout this,

All spells are Hard Focus, and there is a separate spell for soft focus that covers the whole situation.

Soft Focus Spell:

*Enhance Sex *
Alteration
Level: All Spellcasting Classes (1-9)
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature Touched
Duration: 1 Extended Round Per Level Spell was Memorized at.
Saving Throw: Will Negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

If the DM is using the Soft Focus rules, This spell may be used to represent the effects of magic upon sex.  This spell may be memorized at any level, and adds an enhancement bonus of +2 per spell level to the Target's Prowess check.  This represents the wizard using his magic to aid in sex via various magical and natural effects.  

How's that? Nice and simple, and can represent anything that the player feels is appropriate.  Since it's soft focus, detail is already left out, so making magic more obtuse seems about right.

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 12, 2003)

*DOH!*

Just realized the stupidity of Making the duration in Hard focus terms.

Change Duration to: 1 Encounter.

Somebody smack me with a herring....

Stuart


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 14, 2003)

Okay VVrayven, I've had a look at the clothing mechanics (alongside mundane equipment) and they seem brilliant. There are a few finicky suggestions I'd like to make, however...

A) I would recommend the Dexterity check be changed to an Escape Artist check to expose vital areas within the round. Perhaps up the DC accordingly.

B) Modifiers to Prowess checks through clothing should only apply to physical proficiencies. It might be easier to state that Caress checks can be made at the listed penalty, other physical proficiencies cannot be made, but mental proficiencies may be freely made. The exposing negates penalties to Caress and allows other physical proficiencies to be made at no penalty.

C) State what effect actual armour has. Basically, nothing can be done through it. 'Easy access' would be best kept as an armour upgrade that allows for a 'remove hastily' time (according to armour type) in order to expose vital areas (as above), during which time AC bonus is halved (round down). Other armour is bulky by nature - it must be enitrely removed before delicate areas are open.

D) Mundane equipment: Have one price for wooden dildoes, and it may be any size category (or half between) between Small and Large. State that these, or some similar item, are required to use the Toys proficiency. Ivory adds a +2 circumstance bonus for excellect tools, but should cost more than it presently does.

That just about summarises my thoughts. Apart from these sticklers, which could be easily addressed by a simple rephrasing, I think the mechanics are wonderful. Thanks for your work, VVrayven, and if you would like to prepare a spell selection by all means do so.

Brevdavis: Your work on the charts is excellent, but I am concerned with the viability of some of the results. Some seem just a little bizarre (seaweed?) and others seem overly focused (chainmail but not scale armour?). I also disapprove of categorising people be class, instead of by nature, as class is really quite impalpable. I'll post a writeup of assigning kinks as soon as possible.


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## davethebrave371 (Jun 14, 2003)

*3.5?*

You guys and gals rock my world! I didn't even *know* someone was doin' up a 3e version of the Carnal Knowledge netbook! Wow! That's awesome! You planning on making it 3.5 compatible? If so, when? Like...the winter? Next year? I've looked at the stuff on the site, and major kudos to you guys! The psionic stuff is rad.


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## davethebrave371 (Jun 14, 2003)

_"PREGNANCY

Pregnancy is broken down into nine stages. For humans, each of these stages represents a month of pregnancy. At the beginning of each stage, the mother must test once each against Weakness, Awkwardness and Exhaustion. Failure represents the loss of a point of Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, respectively – this loss cannot be removed until after the pregnancy, when it recovers at the usual rate. The DC for these checks, and for spotting that the childbearer is pregnant, are given in the table below:

  Check DC Spot DC 
Stage I 10 75 
Stage II 12 50 
Stage III 14 35 
Stage IV 16 25 
Stage V 18 20 
Stage VI 20 15 
Stage VII 22 10 
Stage VIII 24 5 
Stage IX 26 0 



Should the mother roll a natural 1 on her Weakness, Awkwardness or Exhaustion checks during the first stage, the embryo will not implant and pregnancy will be negated. Thereafter, it will only be when two Weakness, Awkwardness or Exhaustion checks have rolled 1’s in the same stage that the child will die.

I don't think this is such a good idea, especially when applied to commoners (which seems to be one of our big check and balance systems). Imagine Lucy the peasant, with a Str, Con and Dex of 10. She rolled lousy for her checks, and her saves are VERY low. At the end of the pregnancy, she has effective stats of 1. The Con drain affecting her hit points alone might kill her. God beware if she has a stat at 9, which means she could simply die from exhaustion (not labor mind you, just having the belly). Also, if we use any sort of Con modifiers for labor and delivery, we will assure that most of the mothers will simply die during childbirth. Granted, a pregnancy will change your life around, but it shouldn't be lethal just by itself.

As an alternate system, how about this: If you fail your check, you receive an armor check penalty equal to the stage you are in? A -9 in the late stages to the same skills affected by ACP sounds about right to me. Of course it would stack with any existing ACP the character might have, plus your armor might not fit anymore.

To simplify the things, starting at Stage 3, the check DC is 10+Stage. Early on, I don't think there would be much of a hindrance, so we could skip the first two stages."_

What about -2 for each per trimester? Just a thought.


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## brevdravis (Jun 14, 2003)

*Thanks for the feedback*

Thanks for the honest opinions.

The seaweed was the first unusual plant that came to mind..... (I live by the coast...)

Regarding the class issue:  I understand where you're coming from there.  If you don't mind, feel free to swap your nature ideas with my class Ideas, it was after all,  just a first draft.

Regarding the armor:  I figured that chainmail and scale were distinct enough....  (The whole  fish look thang...)  But I understand.  

Do you want me to rewrite, or just switch some of it out?

Stuart


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## Alzrius (Jun 15, 2003)

This may be just me, but I'm getting slightly confused on what part of the GUCK we're focusing on now. 

DbS, you had a timetable for things to work on right? Where are we on that? We seem to be going all over the place now (which would be fine, but I got a mild rebuke last time I did that, so this time I'm checking first).


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes, it's available on page one of this thread. If I'd care to have a look...

*slap*

...I'll admit that it's terribly bad form to deviate from one's own agenda. Matters are, indeed, in somewhat of a disarray, partly due to delegating different tasks to different people in order to make the task easier, partly through my own failings, and partly from people bringing up new topics. Time to regain control.

Right.

DtB, thankyou for your praise and choosing to participate in the editing board. I'd like to answer your questions, but I wouldn't want to put a fixed date on the moment of completion, as this is a human effort. It would just encourage everyone to abstain until a week before, and then submit everything five years late.

Alzrius, no mild rebuke this time around. The topic of the forum has diffused somewhat, in line with people covering different areas (which is the only method possible with multiple contributors working at once). However, I will try to get things back on track.

Brevdravis, I will shortly submit a followup post containing my spin on the kinks table, based on your submissions; this way, you have a shot at criticising my work.

VVrayven, you may put your work on arranging spell lists (I'd leave descriptive text for now) on hold, unless you've got them in a ready-to-submit format. You mentioned you had some ideas on rules for pregnancy, and this (along with conception) is the new topic for the forum, in line with my objective list; they'd be best posted now.

Anabsterconian, I believe you had some conception rules that were briefly aired; feel free to repost them at this point. Same for all the lurkers, dwelling editors and peanut contributors present.

For reference everyone, the present portion of the objectives that concern us are as follows:

* Sexual alignment & kinks rules (mostly complete)
* Pregnancy & Conception (present majority topic for the board. Post suggestions and attitudes freely)
* Sexual diseases (will be addressed shortly)
* Spell lists (VVrayven working on as background project to my knowledge; we will come to it eventually)

There we are; hope this suffices as an explanation and re-organisation.

Cheers,

DbS


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## VVrayven (Jun 15, 2003)

Hmmm. Right now I've been bogged down in Soft Focus calculations. Are those "off topic" right now? If so, just say the word. I do have a slight calculation problem that I have just found. Right now I am working on the new gratification table and the soft focus rules.

If a couple only goes until they both climax, you get one set of gratification results. If they go until someone passes out, you get another set of results. So, what should be consider as normal for the tables? In order words, a set of 5th level people can go until the female has a couple and the male has one climax. This will take about 10-20 minutes, everyone is happy, and this will be the "normal" encounter. However, our rules allow for the 5th level people to go at it straight for 4.5 hours and earn gratification totaling around 20-30. Now these are very different results and I'd have to say the the first one is far more common. SO.... What should our average be? This affects both the Soft Focus rules and the Hard Focus attitude shift chart.

I can start the new spell list project, but I cannot complete it without the full rules. But I'll work on it in the background for now.  DbS: do your fixes to the clothing rules. I will agree with them all. 

Just let me know what I can do to help more.


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## brevdravis (Jun 15, 2003)

*Regarding the kinks table*

Thanks again for letting me know where we're going with things.

Question, the D100 list isn't done yet, so do you want me to do that one before I see your corrected table, or do you want me to wait on that?

With regards to the table that you're basing off my ideas, are you just going to change a few things that you think are wrong, or are you going to do a complete rewrite based off it?

Either way, just let me know so I can help.

Stuart


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 16, 2003)

It’s my birthday today! Huzzah! Anyways...

VVrayven: Obviously with age comes memory loss, as I had completely forgotten. Sorry! With regard statistics, I should think that people should be able to make a small attitude change for the ‘normal’ session and a more significant one (but nothing too drastic until at least above 10th level) for an ‘extended’ session. If you could work out some algorithm (using squares, cubes and multiples where possible) to determine soft and hard focus gratification, it would be much appreciated. Oh, and I feel that soft focus should only apply to ‘normal’ sessions, to avoid it being overused and represent the fact it reflects a no-frills, low intensity encounter.

brevdravis: I’ve compiled the massive list, brevdravis, for you (and the board at large) to post your comments on. You’ll not the abscence of subtables, as I didn’t want this to be more complicated than it had to, and I didn’t think they were strictly necessary. Certain kink subjects have been omitted on grounds of being too bizarre, or else too mundane (things people SHOULD be interested in seldom count as kinks). Give us a word on your sentiments, which kinks you’d like to see removed/placed, and such forth.

everyone else: How many amongst you are idle at this time? There are plenty of tasks to be addressed, and any contributions help. Give a holler if you want to take a more active part. Otherwise, the Random Kink Subjects Table (below) is open to all feedback; it is very much an agglomeration of thoughts and could do with as many opinions put in as possible.

okay then...

Table 5-XX4: Random Kink Subjects
Select a subject, or roll a d100 if you’re feeling adventurous.
Roll Subject
01 Soldiers
02 Priests
03 Mages
04 Criminals
05 Woodspeople
06 Nobles
07 Peasants & Slaves
08 Savages
09 Humans
10 Elves
11 Dwarves
12 Fey
13 Gnomes
14 Halflings
15 Orcs
16 Goblins
17 Celestials
18 Demons
19 Devils
20 Deities
21 Pseudonaturals
22 Dogs & Wolves
23 Cats & Big Cats
24 Horses & Ponies
25 Snakes & Worms
26 Fish
27 Lizards
28 Insects
29 Rodents
30 Statues& Constructs
31 Undead
32 Dragons
33 Old people
34 Young people
35 Strong partners
36 Frail partners
37 Blond hair
38 Red hair
39 Dark hair
40 White hair
41 Very pale skin
42 Very dark skin
43 Deeply tanned skin
44 Smooth skin
45 Rugged skin
46 Hairiness
47 Hairlessness
48 Eyes
49 Lips
50 Chest/Breasts
51 Buttocks
52 Feet
53 Tentacles
54 Voyeuring
55 Exhibition
56 Danger
57 Opulence
58 Dirtiness
59 Outdoors
60 Confined spaces
61 Churches
62 Taverns
63 Kitchens
64 Dungeons
65 Gentle sex
66 Rough sex
67 Anal sex
68 Oral sex
69 Breast sex
70 Masturbation
71 Gays
72 Lesbians
73 Multiple partners
74 Sadism
75 Masochism
76 Domination
77 Submission
78 Violence
79 Rape
80 Pregnancy
81 Virginity
82 Leather
83 Metal
84 Silk
85 Water
86 Fire
87 Glass
88 Bone
89 Blood
90 Wood
91 Furs
92 Vegetables
93 Revealing clothing
94 Concealing clothing
95 Nudity
96 Magic
97 Staffs
98 Wands
99 Sexual fluids
00 All sexual activity. If a fetish, counts as Nymphomania/Satyriasis according to gender.

Notes on applying kinks:
Th subjects given in the table above require good sense on the part of the GM and players as to what they mean and when they should come into play. More commonplace kinks such as ‘enclosed spaces’ should not enforce Horniness checks for encountering them, but they should when they are seen in a sexual context. What appear to be more bizarre kinks are best interpreted in an abstract fashion – a person who has a fetish for dogs and wolves is not necessarily bestialistic, but may find gnolls enticing, and so on.

*slump*

DbS


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 16, 2003)

Oh, and I would clarify a 'normal' encounter as lasting one hour, after which both partners are fatigued. This way, we can clarify to players the duration and net result of a Soft Focus check.


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## Knight-of-Roses (Jun 16, 2003)

It just strikes me that certain form of kinks (leather, fur, whatever) should be more common than others.  

Perhaps the table could be broken down into a common and unusual table for kinks?  I mean, how many people even know about pseudo-natural beings anyway . . .

Just my thoughts.


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## brevdravis (Jun 16, 2003)

*Looks good*

Allrighty then,

I see why you dumped the subtables - (This isn't Rollmaster, after all...)  A lot of your choices do make sense. (A lot of my suggestions were VERY common turn-ons or VERY obscure.)  I don't think that we need to do the D20 for the common kinks, because the way you have it now is general enough.  (Those who want randomness can roll, and those who don't can pick their Vanilla....  snicker....)  I'd be willing to sign off on this as both the Fret and Fetish table.  (Only one change...  I still think you should toss in a general "Weapons" fetish for those Fighter-jocks out there..... Possibly making Staffs and Wands one selection.)

Oh, and YES I would LOVE to be more active than I have been.  Any projects ya need done, lemme Know!  You're familiar with the tenor of my work.

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 16, 2003)

*Oh, and....*

Happy Birthday!

Stuart


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## Kahuna Burger (Jun 16, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *09 Humans
> 10 Elves
> 11 Dwarves
> 12 Fey
> ...



 can one assume this follows the old ranger rule of not picking your own race? 

*



			71 Gays
72 Lesbians
		
Click to expand...


*I'm confused by these. Is this a subset of voyerism? Since sexual orintation is handled in a seperate system, I'm not sure how having either of these as a fetish makes sense... (if you're a lesbain, can you have 'straight people' as a fetish?)
*



			74 Sadism
75 Masochism
76 Domination
77 Submission
78 Violence
79 Rape
...
Notes on applying kinks:
...What appear to be more bizarre kinks are best interpreted in an abstract fashion – a person who has a fetish for dogs and wolves is not necessarily bestialistic, but may find gnolls enticing, and so on.
		
Click to expand...


*
I think that the application note can be extended to include allignment issues and thus cut the above list down to two generic terms, like "pain" and "domination." I'm thinking something like: "Allignment will also play a role in the application of kinks and frets. A 'good' PC who rolls randomly for domination would be presumed to be either a top or a bottom and seeks out consenting partners for, well, roleplaying... an evil character who rolls for pain would be interpreted very differently."

My point is that the fundemental difference between a kink and a crime is consent. And whether one desires consent in their sexual relationships seem to me to be a pretty basic allignment issue. So while I was orriginally in favor of spelling out the differences, your note made me rethink that...

Kahuna burger


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## brevdravis (Jun 16, 2003)

*Kahuna Burger's points...*

I'm unfamiliar with the old ranger rule....  (The wink Makes me think you're joking here, but I just needed to check...)

As far as having gays or lesbians as a fetish, I think you can read it a couple of ways.  A subset of voyerism, sure.  That works no matter which way your alignment comes up.  

The second way is to consider it as a genuine fetish.  Like the straight woman who loves gay men and is certain she can "Convert" them.  Or the typical guy who dreams of making it with hot lesbians.  I'm sure that There are lesbians in love with straight women too.... It's all relative.    I personally think it's cool how it is, and DM's and players can have their own take on it.


Finally, I think that your point about alignment does need to be kept in, BUT we should probably keep the kink how they are.  Domination and Sadism are two completely different desires, the same with Submission and masochism. 

Thanks again for listening,

Stuart


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 17, 2003)

Wotcher,

Thanks for the feedback on the kinks. When composing the list, I deliberately decided against giving high chances for common fetishes, as (a) this relates to another universe - what's common here is by no means common there and (b) it allowed me to fit in as many as possible.

Brevdravis, your theory on gay and lesbian fetishes strikes true with what I was thinking. Perhaps it's a valid addition to the Notes...

Kahunaburger, your ideas are very much valid. I will not be consolidating 'sadism' and 'domination' as they are very much separate entities, but a few changes in that region will be made. I would have included the d20 idea, but I didn't know which ones to select as the more common/mundane ones. If you could compose a list, it would be much appreciated.

As a result of feedback, Wands and Staffs will be consolidated into 'Arcane Items', Rape will be dropped (too alignment-heavy), and 'Weapons' and 'Divine Items' added.

Oh and VVrayven, how are you getting along?

Cheers,

DbS


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 17, 2003)

As we are currently concentrating on conception & pregnancy rules, a matter that has been previously hotly debated over, I thought I’d throw my own rules on conception into the fray (my pregnancy rules are already on site, but rather unpolished).

CONCEPTION
At the end of each extended round in which a male character Climaxes during a Penetrative technique, a conception threat roll must be made. Roll a d20 according to the characters’ race. If the characters are of mixed race, use the highest DC between them. If the roll succeeds (natural 20 always does), roll again to confirm the critical threat. On another success, conception has occurred.

Table X-XX: Conception threat rolls
DC Fertility (Races)
10 High (Orcs, Goblins etc)
12 Average (Humans, Gnolls etc)
14 Low (Halflings, Dwarves etc)
16 Very Low (Gnomes, Elves etc)
18 Minimal (Dragons etc)
+2 Sheath used
+4 Masterwork sheath used

Multiple sprogs: If the result of a confirmation roll is a natural 20, you make an addtional roll for another conception (which will result in twins). If this roll is a natural 20, roll for a third conception (which will result in triplets), and so on.

That pretty much summarises it. My choices are justified as follows: I have chosen to do it by encounter (more precisely, by Climax round) through personal preference. I picked up on the idea of threat rolls from the earlier forum, and adopted those. I have deliberately avoided Con modifiers, Fortitude saves and such as a person’s constitution or experience has little real effect on their fertility; besides, it would throw rolls for giants, dragons and other such titanic creatures with equally titanic Con and Fort modifiers.

Anyone with an alternative system, a rewording or reworking of the above, or anything else on the subject (don’t forget pregnancy!) is heartily encouraged to post it here.

DbS


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## Kahuna Burger (Jun 17, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Table X-XX: Conception threat rolls
> DC Fertility (Races)
> ...




the basic mechanic sounds good, but in cases of attempted contraception, perhaps an opposed roll would be better? A contraception check against a conception check? I'm thinking this way mostly because both method and competent use of method play such a strong part in effective contraception. Thats why when you look at those little method charts, they usually have one collum for the theoretical "perfect use" stat and one for "average use". The check could be based on either int or wis, depending on the method...

I could work up a chart based on various methods (even in fantasy there's more than one option) if that general idea sounds useful. 

I have a LOT of feelings on pregnancy and childbirth, mostly that it isn't nearly as dangerous as modern medicine would ahve you believe... but I should wait to see what the current framework is before I try to make a d20 model of the process from scratch... (my basic comment to keep in mind is that the risk of losing the pregnancy is greatest in the first couple of months - often before most women will even know they are pregnant, and the risk to the mother is greatest from complications at the end of the pregnancy...)

Kahuna burger


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## Kahuna Burger (Jun 17, 2003)

A suggested D20 random list. I tried to keep things very general (having a religious catagory isntead of preists and churches), and somewhat within the mainstream of kinks, but eliminate those that seemed, well, obvious.  its not perfect, but here ya go.

Roll Subject
01 Military
02 Religious
03 Wilderness
04 Fey
05 Outsiders
06 Statues& Constructs
07 Dragons
08 Long Hair
09 body hair
10 Feet
11 Voyeuring
12 Exhibition
13 Danger
14 Dirtiness
15 Domination/Submission
16 Pregnancy
17 Leather/fur
18 Weapons
19 Fire
20 Magic

kahuna Burger


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## Sorn (Jun 17, 2003)

Happy Birthday DbS. The world is indeed small, as it was my birthday yesterday as well. How old are you now? Maybe we are actually twins seperated at birth.  

Anyway... lots of posts since I left my computer for the (long) weekend. I'll go through everything new and get it up onto the site sometime today.


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## Sorn (Jun 17, 2003)

Quick note on the Conception rules...

Right now it states that you make a check for every extended round that a male spends in climaxed condition (using Penetrative, etc...). 

However, only one single spermazoid is needed for conception, so even if the guy pumps 20 gallons of ejaculate into his partner, it doesn't really matter. I'd say there needs to be only one roll. 

This will not only keep the dice-rolling down a bit, but it should also work better with the soft-focus rules. Also, I would imagine that there are a lot of people out there who fade-to-black any sexual encounters, but want to use our pregnancy rules to determine morning-after effects. 

So, I am suggesting that if the male climaxes (be it determined by hard focus rules, soft-focus rules or simply assumed), conception checks are made. 

Now to get some clarification... do both partners make conception checks? Or is it one roll, using the highest DC based on race? I think it's one roll, but the wording isn't all that clear on it (or it might be me being sleep-deprived).


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## brevdravis (Jun 17, 2003)

*Conception rolls*

Whether it should be one or two rolls depends on your paradign.  Personally, I think the fact that we're treating it similar to a critical hit effective covers both partners in the encounter.


Stuart


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## Kahuna Burger (Jun 17, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *Quick note on the Conception rules...
> 
> Right now it states that you make a check for every extended round that a male spends in climaxed condition (using Penetrative, etc...).
> 
> ...




um... without offending eric's grandmother, I'd say that this is a incorrect model. While technically correct that one sperm COULD get a woman pregnant, its by no means gaurenteed that entering that sperm into a fertile woman will result in pregnancy. More do increase the odds. 

One roll under soft focus rules seems obvious, but under hard focus there's no reason not to give multiple rolls with stacking DC modifiers. (especially if the "extended session" is measured in hours rather than minutes.) Say, plus 5 if its the second climax the male has had in less than half an hour, plus 2 if its in the last 3 hours...

I also notice that there's no real penalty for mixed race conception. Rather than giving a standard rule for that, I would relegate it to a campaign dependant decision... I have heard many say that halfbreeds should be very rare and treat them so in their games.

Kahuna Burger


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## VVrayven (Jun 18, 2003)

Calculations Complete...

:: I'm very tired so forgive me if this is a bit rattled. The 2 bounding works for the Hard Focus rules, this allows the desired results as DbS laid out with impressive things only begining at around level 10 or +14 prowess. Average has been defined as what can be achieved in an hour or until one partner is exhausted (not pass out, exhuasted). I've also found a slight flaw in the program that was giving everyone CON mod+1 before fatigue, instead of Con Mod. It does change the numbers signifigantly but I've taken it all into account. 

Grat  /  Result    / SF
0   Disappointing    4
1   Satisfactory    9
4   Enjoyable       16
8   Memorable    25
16   Fantastic       36
32   Extraordinary    49
64   Heavenly    64
128   Raptorous    81

Why are the SF numbers so high? SF represents about one hour after which both partners are fatigued and didn't try TOO hard. So get to a Extraordinary+ result with casual sex takes some REAL talent. Anyway, those are the numbers I'm endorsing. Goodnight boys.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 18, 2003)

*Interim post*

Thanks, VVrayven, for the gratification rules - I'll amend my copy of the guide appropriately, which I have been quietly touching up (not intended) over the last month. When pregnancy and conception are finished, I'll upload a 'Full Mechanics v2.0' for the benefit of the forum. There are a few minor changes, but nothing too severe and nothing that hasn't been referenced on the forum.

Kahuna, thanks for your comments and your table. Regarding interbreeding, I was originally going to make one partner make the threat roll and the other confirm it with individual racial DCs, but I went for the 'highest DC present' to make interbreeding that bit more tricky. I have a system going for Related, Relatable and Unrelatable species, but until I finish a rather massive diagram I won't be able to upload it. Basically, it gives the races a given race is a halfbreed of, can produce halfbreeds with, and cannot do anything with respectively. If you have your own mechanics/thoughts on cnception and pregnancy, by all means post them.

Thanks everyone, and if you have any rules for the topics otlined above, or are willing to go with any others, say so, and we can move on to the next topic.

Cheers,

DbS


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## Sorn (Jun 18, 2003)

*Half-Breeds*

Half-breeds are a tricky issue in D&D. There are a few obvious ones that work (Half-Elves/Orcs/Fiends/Celestials, etc), but the majority of other races does not interbreed all that well. By allowing just about everybody to crossbreed will be a big can of worms. The munchkins and twinks will come out of the woodwork and create Giant/Halfling crossbreeds, Lizardman/Elf people and things I don't even want to think about. 

I have a copy of EA: Crossbreeding at home, and it took the Mongoose people 64 pages to come up with rules for things like that. Do we really want to go that route and have balanced cross-breeding rules? I'd let's stick to a side-bar, as cross-breeding is really a campaign world specific thing best left to the GM. If you look at it, we already have the increased DC's for dragons, so as long as we have the standard races and MM templates covered, we should be good.


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## Anabstercorian (Jun 19, 2003)

Basic rules for my pregnancy module are as follows:

In any given sex act, roll a die for each female involved.  This symbolizes the chance of them being fertile.  Certain species are fertile more often than others.  If you roll a 1, that female is fertile.  This ranges from 1 in 4 for critters like goblins to 1 in 30 for creatures like dragons.  (Yes, a use for the infamous d30.)

Then, the male and female both roll Fort saves.  We keep the result of Whoever rolls lowest.  The DC depends on the species, and it's the highest of whichever species is involved.

So.  You've got an orc (Forrester) and an Elf (Queen Aramil) and they're getting it on.  Let's roll a d20 for the elf, since they aren't exactly fertile...  Hey, a 1!  Cool.  Forrester and Queen Aramil both roll fort saves, and the lowest result is a 18, and neither rolls a 20.  The DC for orcs is only 8, but the DC for elves is 17.  Looks like there'll be young'uns.

This is a simple system, but you have to let the DM wing the DC's and dice, as it could vary from campaign to campaign.


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## Alzrius (Jun 19, 2003)

I agree with Sorn pretty much on the whole in regards to the crossbreeding issue.

The sticking part here seems to be that if there can be half-orcs and half-elves, why not others? And races where the other half isn't human, etc. Those are what open what could be, as he said, a can of worms.

There was a very nice article about this in the first issue of _Asgard_ (downloadable elsewhere here on EN World) that I think is the best take on the issue, but it'd still be hard to apply everywhere. We may just want to bar crossbreeding altogether, and have a long sidebar about what to do if you want that in your campaign (we may want to use OGC from Mongoose's book also).

Irregardless though, I do think we should give _something_ to the people who want rules for outrageous crossbreeding to be a possibility; something has to happen with those pure maidens who dig unicorns. This may or may not be something that we may want to shunt off to VVrayven's HEx project.

Anabstercorian: you've got some good ideas on pregnancy, but the system seems too inclined to making it a rarity. In every case, the rules are very much opposed to getting the female pregnant: a 1 must be rolled, then both parties make Fort saves against separate DCs, taking the highest DC and the lowest result...that's going to make it rather difficult in any circumstance for conception to happen.

Likewise, this will also be a bit of work to create (rather abstract) "pregnancy dice" for each species, as well as a "Pregnancy DC" for each species as well for that Fort save. It seems rather superfluous. The idea is good, but too much new mechanics would have to be crafted.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 19, 2003)

*On conception:*

To: DbS
       1)  Under normal conditions it shouldn't matter how much he pumps into her (another roll for a second climax).  Unless something is interfering, one ejaculation is far more than is needed to do the job.

       2)   Contraceptives are *FAR* more effective than your model shows.  For a human, a condom has only a 67% chance of blocking conception?!?!  The religious right might have you believe this....
       2a)   Condoms shouldn't be more effective for the less fertile races.  A condom should have basically a fixed reduction in the chance of conception.  As such I would not include it in the pregnancy roll at all.  Instead it should be a separate roll entirely--the chance that contraception blocks conception.

      3)    Even without this, conception is too likely.  Take two humans, no protection.  Probability of conception = 24%.  The real number is more like 3%.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 19, 2003)

Just explain myself a moment...

I had made sheaths relatively ineffective because we certainly aren't talking about modern technology - a cotton or pigskin slip is more likely. Under the rules I posted, the chances of two humans successfully procreating from one roll is 20.25%, as chance of conception = ((21 - DC) x 5%) squared. Use of a sheath drops this to 12.25%; a masterwork one makes odds decrease to 6.25%. Each level approximately halves the chances of conception, which I think is about right.

However, if people feel the odds are too likely, we could adjust the DCs accordingly, by adding two to all DCs or dropping the increment to one instead of two. After calculating the odds, I favour the latter, as it produces the following results:

Fertility / Sample Race / DC / Chance
Very High / Orc / 15 / 9%
High / Human / 16 / 6.25%
Average / Halfling / 17 / 4%
Low / Elf / 18 / 2.25%
Very Low / Dragon / 19 / 1%
Sheath +1
MW Sheath +2

However, I am stumbling when it comes to resolving this as I am receiving conflicting arguments on conception odds and whether matters should be resolved by Climax or by encounter (been a long time since sex education...). Frankly, I don't know what to think anymore. feel free to bicker amongst yourselves, propose alternative systems, and whatever.

Regarding crossbreeding, I hold by the principle that if it is not clearly Relatable (can spawn halfbreeds) or Related (are halfbreeds), they are Unrelatable, and this category governs most couplings.

Dwarves and halflings, for example, are considered Related to humans, humans having related with two races that have since been lost; a similar principle applies to gnomes and dwarves.

Elves and rrcs are Relatable to humans. Dwarves and halflings are Unrelatable to elves or orcs, and so on. Unrelatable creatures (sorry, that does apply to unicorns) are exactly that, unless certain enchantments are used, in which case Savage Species provides some handy templates. The entire section should be concise enough to fit into two pages at most, and I can set about it rather quickly whilst the conception debate reigns.

Anyways, I suggest we get this matter resolved. I'm willing to throw my weight behind the mechanics posted beforehand with the table above, but I'm yet to be swayed in the Climax/encounter debate. Please all post your own take on things.


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## Sorn (Jun 19, 2003)

The new DC's look good. 

I am firmly in favor of an encounter-based conception system. Not only is it biologically more realistic, it also cuts down on the amount of dice-rolling. A higher-level character could possibly spend several rounds climaxed. Not only does he have to make all the Prowess-related checks, now we have to add 2 more rolls for conception each round. 

For the biological factor, more is not necessarily better. Sperm does fight amongst itself to get to the egg, so it might not be out of the question that more would yield to lesser odds of conception. But since I am no doctor or biologist, this is merely conjecture on my part. 

In any case, encounter based will tie in easier with fade-to-black and soft-focus groups. If there was a roll for each round climaxed, hard-focus games would yield a LOT more pregnancies. Just imagine a tantric master or a spellcaster who cast a spell that made his orgasms very intense and long-lasting. He'd be very likely to father children all over the place.

As far as crossbreeding goes... I see what you are saying. It could work, but what happens if the dwarf and the human have a kid? Do they get a gnome? Unless you bring Muls over from Dark Sun, there's no such thing as a half-dwarf (or half-gnome or half-halfling for that matter). 

So, the only relatable PHB races would be Human-Elf and Human-Orc. Since there's a bunch of templates out there, extraplanar liasons are covered, as are dragons. I vaguely remember a half-ogre template somewhere, but I am not sure whether it is anything official. 

I am still a little leary of even bothering with that... a little sidebar with the few things that actually work together might be better than putting 2 pages together.


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## Alzrius (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm still slightly leary of assigning races into various "fertility categories", since then that sort of necessitates that we group all the races in the Race section by how fertile they are.

That said, the DC's you posted there, DbS, seem pretty good by themselves. They still leave some questions though, namely, who makes the roll, the male, or the female?

That said, I'd also favor an encounter-based check for pregnancy. I would have it work that every additional round of climax used when using a Penetrative technique beyond the first adds +1 to the roll to check for conception.

In regards to the Related/Relatable thing though, as Sorn pointed out, that would, the way you posted it, mean that there should be half-breeds of most of the core races running around. Likewise, it seems odd that dragons are able to have halfbreeds with humans, but a dwarf and an orc can't have a child (or a unicorn and a human, for that matter, to use my old example).


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 20, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *Just explain myself a moment...
> 
> I had made sheaths relatively ineffective because we certainly aren't talking about modern technology - a cotton or pigskin slip is more likely. Under the rules I posted, the chances of two humans successfully procreating from one roll is 20.25%, as chance of conception = ((21 - DC) x 5%) squared. Use of a sheath drops this to 12.25%; a masterwork one makes odds decrease to 6.25%. Each level approximately halves the chances of conception, which I think is about right.*




       I have a hard time accepting that they would have been that unreliable back then.  After all, you can put water in and see if it leaks!  Besides, withdrawl is a lot more effective than that.

       Besides, there's other possible techniques.  How about half a lemon used like a diaphram?

       You also aren't addressing the problem that under your system condoms work a lot better for low-fertility races than high-fertility races.  If the semen is stopped, it's stopped.
       Contraception should be a separate roll.

*After calculating the odds, I favour the latter, as it produces the following results:*

       Agreed.  That's a lot closer to reality, probably as good as you are going to get with a simple system.

*However, I am stumbling when it comes to resolving this as I am receiving conflicting arguments on conception odds and whether matters should be resolved by Climax or by encounter (been a long time since sex education...).*

       I would go so far as to say per day, other than in dealing with the effectiveness of contraception.  If a reasonable amount of semen is deposited that's it--conception is then entirely a matter of whether there's a good egg there.


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## Alzrius (Jun 20, 2003)

Loren Pechtel said:
			
		

> *I have a hard time accepting that they would have been that unreliable back then.  After all, you can put water in and see if it leaks!*




They're still less effective in that they're prone to tearing more, and even the smallest of leaks can defeat the entire purpose of them, since they don't use spermicide. 



> *Besides, there's other possible techniques.  How about half a lemon used like a diaphram?*




I imagine that technique faded into obscurity real fast simply due to the fact that no one likes a sourpuss. 



> *You also aren't addressing the problem that under your system condoms work a lot better for low-fertility races than high-fertility races.  If the semen is stopped, it's stopped.
> Contraception should be a separate roll.*




I feel the urge to point out here that the goal of this system is not to produce the most true-to-life set of mechanics possible. In real life its possible to attack more than just once per six seconds, and in real life just being better at your career doesn't mean you can take ten times as much damage as a lesser person could.

One of the things we're striving for here (and, IMHO, quickly losing grasp of) is simplicity. Making a fertility roll, and then a contraception roll, is against that grain.



> *I would go so far as to say per day, other than in dealing with the effectiveness of contraception.  If a reasonable amount of semen is deposited that's it--conception is then entirely a matter of whether there's a good egg there. *




I still say that the best thing is per encounter, since a woman may have multiple partners per day, for example.


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## Sorn (Jun 20, 2003)

Well, on the subject of contraceptives, I did a little research a few months ago. History shows that there were all kinds of spermizides used, ranging from honey to olive oil to a strange concoction involving crocodile dung. 

Other methods involved vaginal sponges and  the abovementioned sheaths made from intestines and fish bladders. The problem with the sheaths is that they were usually sown together, leading to abrasions. Needless to say, they were meant more as a protection from disease than a fully functional contraceptive. 

I'd say let's get the pregnancy basics finalized and worry about the contraceptives later when we do the equipment chapter. There's a book out there detailing the history of contraceptives. I'll try and get my hands on a copy to flesh out the equipment chapter.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 20, 2003)

Wotcher,

Another interim post. Regarding the material thus far
1) I'm content to arrange matters by encounter, as it makes more sense and is easier on the die-rolling.
2) It is irrelevant whether the male or female makes the roll, as the DCs are going to be identical. In the case of crossbreeding, you use the higher DC anyway.
3) Regarding my plans to do a brief section on crossbreeding - it charters the relationships between the common humanoids, with guidelines for other races, so shouldn't be too extensive or complex. Oh, and as previously mentioned dwarves are Related to humans, so the offspring are one or the other.
4) Sourpuss... heehee  
5) Good research Sorn, and I'm sure it wold help. My idea was that simpler sheaths (sewn cotton and such) are regarded as 'sheaths' whilst 'masterwork sheaths' are more finely made and anointed with honey or another of the substances you mention. Oh, and I did consider making contraception a 'miss chance' (20% common, 50% masterwork), if that is preferable.

That just about summarises my current thoughts. If some sort of consensus can be achieved, we can start arguing over pregancy instead  .

DbS


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## brevdravis (Jun 20, 2003)

*As far as the contraception thing goes...*

OK, just thought I should toss in my 2c here.

As far as the conception rules go,  I vote for "by Encounter", since it speeds up the process.  (I did a couple play by play's in my spare time, and the multiple conception rolls are a pain in the butt.)


Since we already have the "Withdrawal" method (Under Veteran's Knack) that uses a percentage for Contraception, why don't we stay consistent and make it a general "miss chance."

One roll for the conception, which, if pregnancy is indicated, is followed by a "Contraception" roll, which is a straight percentage.

That way we stay true to what we're doing, and other methods of contraception can easily be added by just assigning them a "miss chance".  I'm just wondering if the percentages for miss chances should stack, or if we should only use the highest percentage in use for a combined chance.

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jun 20, 2003)

*Regarding the whole Crossbreed issue.*

I'm inclined to be a little gun-shy about Crossbreeds in general.  (too many Munchkins in my past...)

Fortunately for us, there is a book out on the market already that covers the subject, so we can pretty much gloss it over in our version of the rules.  I vote for a sidebar, but if you guys want a maximum or 2-3 pages.

Now later on, for the HEx expansion, we may want to revisit this, especially with the whole "host vs. true crossbreeds" thang....



Stuart


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## Sorn (Jun 20, 2003)

I'd say "stack" is the wrong term for the Miss Chance. 

Example... Linda knows she is going to have fun with some random guy in town. Before she leaves, she applies olive oil, inserts a gnomish cervical cap and vaginal sponge soaked in honey and crocodile dung. To be really safe, she drinks an herbal tea she got from the hedge-witch two doors down. 

Her partner, worried about disease, wears a sheath made from a fish-bladder.

After he is done, the pregancy roll is made... It indicates that conception occurs, but the various forms of contraception get a say now. Linda and her partner roll for the olive oil, the cervical cap, the sponge, the tea, and the condom. 

If any miss would indicate that, the contraceptive prevented conception. No need to make any more rolls after that one. On a "hit", keep rolling and hope that the following contraceptives prevent conception. If only one contraceptive was used, that would mean that there's a baby on the way. This system rewards people who don't just rely on one form of contraception. 

The only difficult thing here is how to deal with other forms of birth control. Since we don't have any plans for rules for menstruation, any timed birth control method would be hard to replicate with a miss chance. Apart from the true lunar cycle counting method, most of those are modern though (taking temperature every morning, etc.), so it shouldn't be a big deal.


----------



## Loren Pechtel (Jun 21, 2003)

*Re: As far as the contraception thing goes...*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *
> Since we already have the "Withdrawal" method (Under Veteran's Knack) that uses a percentage for Contraception, why don't we stay consistent and make it a general "miss chance."
> 
> One roll for the conception, which, if pregnancy is indicated, is followed by a "Contraception" roll, which is a straight percentage.
> ...




        After all, conception isn't all that likely.  Using the revised table, humans have only a 6% chance.  You only need to make the contraceptive roll if conception is indicated--only 6% of the time.  No big deal.
        Also, beyond low levels I think most people will be using some form of magical contraception, negating the whole issue.

        As for stacking:  There are five basic methods of preventing conception:

        Barrier containing the semen (condom)
        Spermacide
        Barrier shielding the uterus (diaphram, cervical cap)
        Things which prevent ovulation (the pill)
        Things which prevent implantation. (IUD)

        I would say that you take the best method of each type.  Two items of a single type won't stack, two different types will.


----------



## Loren Pechtel (Jun 21, 2003)

*Originally posted by Sorn 
I'd say "stack" is the wrong term for the Miss Chance. *

        Good point--they act independantly.

*Example... Linda knows she is going to have fun with some random guy in town. Before she leaves, she applies olive oil, inserts a gnomish cervical cap and vaginal sponge soaked in honey and crocodile dung. To be really safe, she drinks an herbal tea she got from the hedge-witch two doors down. 

Her partner, worried about disease, wears a sheath made from a fish-bladder.*

          I wouldn't let the sponge stack with the cervical cap.  Nor would the olive oil stack with the honey & dung.

*If any miss would indicate that, the contraceptive prevented conception. No need to make any more rolls after that one. On a "hit", keep rolling and hope that the following contraceptives prevent conception.*

         Exactly.

*The only difficult thing here is how to deal with other forms of birth control. Since we don't have any plans for rules for menstruation, any timed birth control method would be hard to replicate with a miss chance. Apart from the true lunar cycle counting method, most of those are modern though (taking temperature every morning, etc.), so it shouldn't be a big deal. *

        Primitives could still use mucous texture as well as counting days.

        How I would handle rhythm:  The woman must indicate in advance that she is using it.  (It's *NOT* something you can use spontaneously very well.)  She can ask the DM if it's a safe time.  Provide a table to roll on if the DM doesn't track time.


----------



## brevdravis (Jun 21, 2003)

*Cascading rolls?*

Are we sure that we want to have that many rolls though?  How bout we give each method 2 chances, only one of which stacks.

For example:
Fish Bladder Sheath 25%/ +10%

What this means is that if used alone, there's only a 25% chance of preventing a pregnancy, BUT if used with other methods, you add 10% to the highest "miss Chance".

Not too complex, and cuts down the amount of rolls.  

Stuart


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: Cascading rolls?*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *Are we sure that we want to have that many rolls though?  How bout we give each method 2 chances, only one of which stacks.
> 
> For example:
> Fish Bladder Sheath 25%/ +10%
> ...




         You could do it, but I don't think it's that much of an issue.  Remember, for a human you'll only be making rolls 6% of the time--and that's assuming there's no foolproof magic involved.

         The problem with doing it this way is that one roll is limited to 95%--and some methods will already reach that point on their own.
         Either you permit methods to sum to 100% effective or you end up with adding something to an already good method doing nothing.


         Incidently, my list of 5 methods is incomplete.  There's a 6th--male birth control pills.  Just because there's nothing FDA approved doesn't mean the class doesn't exist.


----------



## Sorn (Jun 23, 2003)

I agree with Loren here... it is a proven fact that using multiple forms of birth control is the safest way of having fun. Most modern form of contraceptives have a chance of failure (usually indicated by a 99.9% rate of success), but it really bites if you are the 0.1% couple. Hence, you combine contraceptives. To keep down the amount of flipping through pages and calculating mods, it's probably easier (and just as realistic) to keep the miss-chance and make cascading rolls. 

In a fantasy game, without modern quality control, none of the mundane contraceptives will be all that great. The only sure-thing way of preventing babies is magic. 



> I wouldn't let the sponge stack with the cervical cap. Nor would the olive oil stack with the honey & dung.




Agreed... My example was a little over-the-top on purpose. Besides, all that stuff in or on the genitals will make any meaningful intercourse nearly impossible anyway.  

Most people will use one form of contraceptive, and a few people might use two. I can't really imagine anyone being as extreme as I outlined. The time it would take to apply all of those items would seriously ruin the mood if you ask me.


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## davethebrave371 (Jun 23, 2003)

*Trimester*



			
				davethebrave371 said:
			
		

> *"PREGNANCY
> 
> Pregnancy is broken down into nine stages. For humans, each of these stages represents a month of pregnancy. At the beginning of each stage, the mother must test once each against Weakness, Awkwardness and Exhaustion. Failure represents the loss of a point of Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, respectively – this loss cannot be removed until after the pregnancy, when it recovers at the usual rate. The DC for these checks, and for spotting that the childbearer is pregnant, are given in the table below:
> 
> ...




Didn't get any feedback, so I was wondering if anyone saw it. 

Sooo...what about -2 per trimester?


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## Sorn (Jun 23, 2003)

We are still fiddling with the conception rules... we'll get to gestation and pregancy shortly. 

Btw, VVrayven, how are the soft-focus rules coming?


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## brevdravis (Jun 24, 2003)

*If I've got it right...*

Sooo,

We're doing one roll for every method used.  That's cool, but if we do it that way, then I think we should definitely make the conception rolls per encounter, so we don't have to make six rolls every time a male ejaculates.

Stuart


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## Sorn (Jun 24, 2003)

BrevDavis, that about sums it up. 

As far as the contraceptive rolls go, it will be a lot less rolls for most encounters. Just to reaffirm that for everybody:

Most couples won't go to the extreme when it comes to contraception. One (maybe two at most) contraceptive used at any given time will be the norm. And if the first one works, the second one won't even need a roll.

On that note, I have acquired the book on contraceptives I was talking about earlier and am in the process of reading it. As I am reading, I am compiling a list. Once I am done, I will break down said list into the categories Loren detailed. Only one item from each category can be used at the same time. That should take care of too many rolls and saves us the trouble of researching weird interactions. ("So does the olive oil still work when you also have honey and crocodile dung in your crotch?")

Here's a little preview (lacking the miss chances, as I haven't gotten that far):

*Containment*
Condom (Fish Bladder)
Condom (Animal Gut)
Condom (Linen)
Condom, Female (Fish Bladder)
Condom, Female (Animal Gut)
Condom, Female (Linen)

*Uterus Shield*
Cervical Cap
Sponge
Rice-Paper Diaphragm

*Spermicide*
Olive Oil
Honey & Crocodile Dung
Elephant Dung

*Ovulation Prevention*
_Maybe a list of herbs that act like the Pill_

*Implantation Prevention*
_This seems more of a modern thing, but I might come up with some gnomish devices._


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 25, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *I agree with Loren here... it is a proven fact that using multiple forms of birth control is the safest way of having fun. Most modern form of contraceptives have a chance of failure (usually indicated by a 99.9% rate of success), but it really bites if you are the 0.1% couple. Hence, you combine contraceptives. To keep down the amount of flipping through pages and calculating mods, it's probably easier (and just as realistic) to keep the miss-chance and make cascading rolls. *




         Consider:  FDA requirements for the use of thalidomide are sterilization/menopause/abstinence or two methods of birth control.

*In a fantasy game, without modern quality control, none of the mundane contraceptives will be all that great. The only sure-thing way of preventing babies is magic. *

         Sure, they won't be all that great--but I would figure 80-90% effectiveness even then.

*Agreed... My example was a little over-the-top on purpose. Besides, all that stuff in or on the genitals will make any meaningful intercourse nearly impossible anyway.  *

        That it might!

*Most people will use one form of contraceptive, and a few people might use two. I can't really imagine anyone being as extreme as I outlined. The time it would take to apply all of those items would seriously ruin the mood if you ask me. *

        You might very well see more in ancient times when childbirth is more dangerous and individual methods aren't all that reliable.

        Note that there are 6 basic types, only three of which are used at the time of intercourse.  What if both partners are taking whatever the primitive version of the pill is?  That's two or possibly three methods right there without any bother at the time.


----------



## Loren Pechtel (Jun 25, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *Once I am done, I will break down said list into the categories Loren detailed. Only one item from each category can be used at the same time.*




        You apparently missed my second post--I realized there was a 6th category--things which prevent sperm production or render it ineffective.  I don't think you'll find any in your book.  I've only heard of one that we don't have any real data on.  It's passed FDA safety testing but nobody's interested in doing effectiveness testing as it's patent is long since up and it's not easy to test--the sperm are produced normally, they just don't fertilize the egg.  (It's a drug that's been on the market for ages.  Infertility has been noted as a side effect.  Since it's a heart drug {I forget exactly which type} it's users are rarely interested in conception anyway so there isn't a lot of data.)

*That should take care of too many rolls and saves us the trouble of researching weird interactions. ("So does the olive oil still work when you also have honey and crocodile dung in your crotch?")*

        Agreed.

*Uterus Shield*
Half a lemon.  It's a combination shield and spermicide.

*Implantation Prevention
This seems more of a modern thing, but I might come up with some gnomish devices. *

        The IUD was known long ago.  They would put pits in the uterus of camels to prevent conception.


----------



## Sorn (Jun 25, 2003)

Thanks Loren... I'll make sure to jot all that down. I didn't know about the camel IUD, so I stand corrected and amazed. 

History never ceases to do that to me... Ain't it great?


----------



## brevdravis (Jun 25, 2003)

*Slightly off-topic*

You know, this might be a little off topic,

BUUUT, perhaps a little sociological sidebar might be appropriate in the contraceptive area.   Something about how in a fantasy campaign with reliable birth control women will have more ability towards self determination....

Hence the ability of women in most fantasy campaigns to be warriors, clerics, civic leaders, without having to worry about the possibility of unwanted pregnancy....  Perhaps virginity might be not as vital for marriages, etc.... Think more modern values, etc...

Just an idea, thought I should point it out...

Stuart


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 26, 2003)

Right – an unpopular declaration to be made, here. I’ve pored over the statistical data, the alternative systems offered, and all the suggestions for contraception and come to the conclusion that simplicity is bliss. I would move to ignore miss chances, multiple contraception routes, and all that in favour of the original +1/+2 to the conception threat DC for mundane/masterwork sheaths.

This offers, on average, a 45%/75% reduction in chances, dropping to 30%/50% at the most fertile end and increases to 55%/80% at the least, an inbalance I’m willing to run with. This also creates an effective contraception system: masterwork sheaths are 97.75% effective for humans. Most importantly, it’s very simple and cuts down the rolls involved; the conception mechanic was designed so that you only had to roll one die at the end of each encounter (another one if a threat was rolled), against a basic DC with few modifiers. I would omit other contraception routes, although potions, ointments and pills to improve/reduce fertility will be available in magical and mundane format (rules will be forthcoming). This way players don't get tied up over making sure they've employed every possiblity, and contraception does not become the focus of any sexual proceedings.

Whilst the other mechanics proposed are very good, imaginative, precise and realistic (especially Loren’s contributions – some very interesting ideas there), I favour the more primitive system as it gives the level of detail we need and little more. If anyone wishes to refute me on this, do so.

If people are willing to accept this resolution, I would move that we start bickering over pregnancy rules instead. Oh, and I like the sociological sidebar idea, brevdravis; a very good point indeed.

*dons flame-retardant gear*

DbS


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## Alzrius (Jun 26, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *Right – an unpopular declaration to be made, here. I’ve pored over the statistical data, the alternative systems offered, and all the suggestions for contraception and come to the conclusion that simplicity is bliss. *




Allow me to be the first one to speak out on this...

Hallelujah!

I haven't been posting much here lately because I've been of the opinion that this was becoming much too complicated in-and-of itself.

Truth to tell, I feel that way about several portions of the GUCK already, but I didn't want to say anything. This last round of craziness was the worst yet though. I for one am glad the the person at the top was willing to make an executive decision that I feel will be better for this project as a whole.

Hat's off to you DbS!


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## Sorn (Jun 26, 2003)

No need for any flame-retardant suits here... I can live with the simplistic version. 

Even with contraceptives only being a  modifier for the conception roll, I'd still like to include various forms of birth control. There are so many cool and interesting things that were used throughout history which would be present in a fantasy world as well. Narrowing it down to Sheath and Sheath, Masterwork doesn't really seem to be the way to go. 

However, with the current modifiers, the spread isn't exactly all that big, so any mundane birth control measure would have to be a +1, any masterwork contraceptive a +2. Then again, this cuts down on the math involved.

Very reliable contraceptive methods like IUD's, or the Pill simply don't roll for conception period. I know that there is a very small chance for pregnancy anyway, but it's going to be so small that it shouldn't really matter for game mechanics.

So, DbS, I propose we change the wording to in the modifier table to "Contraceptive +1, MW Contraceptive +2") and put all the possible items into the equipment category.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 27, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *Right – an unpopular declaration to be made, here. I’ve pored over the statistical data, the alternative systems offered, and all the suggestions for contraception and come to the conclusion that simplicity is bliss. I would move to ignore miss chances, multiple contraception routes, and all that in favour of the original +1/+2 to the conception threat DC for mundane/masterwork sheaths.
> 
> This offers, on average, a 45%/75% reduction in chances, dropping to 30%/50% at the most fertile end and increases to 55%/80% at the least, an inbalance I’m willing to run with. This also creates an effective contraception system: masterwork sheaths are 97.75% effective for humans. Most importantly, it’s very simple and cuts down the rolls involved; the conception mechanic was designed so that you only had to roll one die at the end of each encounter (another one if a threat was rolled), against a basic DC with few modifiers. I would omit other contraception routes, although potions, ointments and pills to improve/reduce fertility will be available in magical and mundane format (rules will be forthcoming). This way players don't get tied up over making sure they've employed every possiblity, and contraception does not become the focus of any sexual proceedings.
> 
> ...




           Trying to incorporate all the methods of contraception into the base roll runs a big problem:  There are only two rolls maximum.  This gives a maximum odds of 1:400.  Thus you either accept that sufficient stacking means no failure chance (by saying that a 21 simply can't be rolled) or you say that a 20 hits no matter what, meaning that with 6 methods you still have a 1 in 400 chance of conceiving.  The typical American would suffer an unplanned pregnancy every 3 years on average.


           Furthermore, your system requires applying a modifier to *ALL* rolls.  At maximum complexity and using some unreliable methods, the multi-roll system only increases the number of rolls by 20% at the most.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 27, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *So, DbS, I propose we change the wording to in the modifier table to "Contraceptive +1, MW Contraceptive +2") and put all the possible items into the equipment category. *




        What do you do when the number becomes 21?


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## Liquid Snake (Jun 27, 2003)

*Contraception Rules*

I think you people should go with the multi-roll system, it is pretty swell and as Loren pointed out, it isn't THAT complex and difficult to use. I mean if someone has reached the point in which they'll use the sex mechanics rules, then a couple of more rolls for pregnancy check will be alright.


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## brevdravis (Jun 27, 2003)

*All in favor of cutting down rolls*

I personally think the fewer rolls the better here.

Here's my logic.  I agree with the Contraception - +1, and MW Contraception +2, because this is more medieval than anything else, at least as far as D&D goes.  If somebody wants to do a more detailed thing for D20 modern, that's great, but we're not talking really reliable stuff here.

If somebody WANTS to play without ANY risk, take veterans knack or employ magic.  A few spells would easily represent magical contraception without increasing the rolls needed.

So, can we take a vote or something here.

WIth my vote first:  One roll -1
                                Cascading rolls: 0

If yer voting, vote ONCE...

Stuart


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## Bastoche (Jun 27, 2003)

I'm pretty neutral on that conception/contraption thing. I vote white.


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## Alzrius (Jun 28, 2003)

At the risk of going mildly off-topic, I don't think we should get a vote. This thread is open to anyone's input, but there are clearly defined heads of this project (Sorn, DbS, and VVrayven). These are the people who are obviously the heart and soul of this entire enterprise, and they should, IMHO, have oversight on the project. They get the final say on how the mechanics work.

Centralized systems of decision like this may be less "fair", but they're always more efficient, and that's something that is paramount to the GUCK.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: All in favor of cutting down rolls*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *
> If somebody WANTS to play without ANY risk, take veterans knack or employ magic.  A few spells would easily represent magical contraception without increasing the rolls needed.
> 
> Stuart *




        Incidently--veterans knack shouldn't work perfectly.  Being 100% effective in not ejaculating inside does not give 100% effectiveness at preventing pregnancy.

        I do agree that magic is the real answer--but note that once the characters use magic the whole issue of rolling for pregnancy becomes moot anyway.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 28, 2003)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> *At the risk of going mildly off-topic, I don't think we should get a vote. This thread is open to anyone's input, but there are clearly defined heads of this project (Sorn, DbS, and VVrayven). These are the people who are obviously the heart and soul of this entire enterprise, and they should, IMHO, have oversight on the project. They get the final say on how the mechanics work.
> 
> Centralized systems of decision like this may be less "fair", but they're always more efficient, and that's something that is paramount to the GUCK. *




        Agreed.  The rest of us can lobby our positions but there are only three votes.


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## Alzrius (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Re: All in favor of cutting down rolls*



			
				Loren Pechtel said:
			
		

> *Incidently--veterans knack shouldn't work perfectly.  Being 100% effective in not ejaculating inside does not give 100% effectiveness at preventing pregnancy.*




That's the most realistic interpretation, but that's not what we're going for here. There needs to be some way that non-magic-using characters can have perfect protection from conceiving when they have sex. It shouldn't be widely available, but it should be present.


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## brevdravis (Jun 28, 2003)

*Contraception Sociology Sidebar (first Draft)*

Since the only response on this idea was positive, here's my little sidebar, feedback welcome.

Contraception on Society (Sidebar)

Historically, the role of women in a society has been extremely limited when reliable contraception is not available.  Since the d20 rules generally allow women to have a more active role in society that history suggests, it can be assumed that most clerics and wizards are willing to provide relatively low cost contraception spells to the average woman.  Some campaigns may want a more historically accurate state of affairs.  In that case assume that women of power and/or wealth will be able to get contraception by paying premium prices (whether literal cash or use of influence), wheras the poor will have much less control over their self-determination.

A quick guideline for a price of a 1 month contraception spell in a very liberated society is 1 sp.   This puts the price within the means of an average citizen.  Assume that some good temples see charging less as a form of charity, especially temples that protect and nuture women.  In some desperate cases the cost may be waived altogether.

Repressive societies will of course raise the prices considerably.  Another thing that may raise the cost, or even make contraception totally unavailable, is if the dominant religion forbids it.  Historically, many religions (not naming names here)  have seen contraception as a blasphemy, and have forbidden it to their worshipers.  Womens roles in these societies have usually not been very free.



There we go, any comments or thoughts?

Stuart


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: All in favor of cutting down rolls*



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's the most realistic interpretation, but that's not what we're going for here. There needs to be some way that non-magic-using characters can have perfect protection from conceiving when they have sex. It shouldn't be widely available, but it should be present. *




       So?  Make a high quality version of the pill.

       There are plenty of teenage players--and too many think that withdrawl is effective.  Don't reinforce that!


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: Contraception Sociology Sidebar (first Draft)*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *
> Contraception on Society (Sidebar)
> ...
> A quick guideline for a price of a 1 month contraception spell in a very liberated society is 1 sp.   This puts the price within the means of an average citizen.  Assume that some good temples see charging less as a form of charity, especially temples that protect and nuture women.  In some desperate cases the cost may be waived altogether.
> *




         The problem is that this is *WAY* out of line with other spellcasting prices--I doubt it would work that way.

         Instead, perhaps it's a level 1 spell, AOE:  all willing creatures within one consecrated area.  The spell is simply part of church services--no special payment is made.  It's simply one of the duties of the priesthood to cast this on the first of every month.


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## Alzrius (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: All in favor of cutting down rolls*



			
				Loren Pechtel said:
			
		

> *So?  Make a high quality version of the pill.
> 
> There are plenty of teenage players--and too many think that withdrawl is effective.  Don't reinforce that! *




If I may, I think that you've lost touch with what we're trying to make here. If anyone actually thinks that they can use things in the GUCK for real sexuality...well, they'd be thinking very foolishly.

The point I'm trying to make here is that we should not even bother to consider that anything here may "reinforce" anything among real people. That's completely beyond the scope of the GUCK to assume anyone is that foolish - at most, a disclaimer should be added to the beginning, but that's no reason to change an otherwise-perfectly fine mechanic.


----------



## Death By Surfeit (Jun 29, 2003)

Wotcher,

Another holding post until I can get the last of the interbreeding rules set up - bear with me!



> At the risk of going mildly off-topic, I don't think we should get a vote. This thread is open to anyone's input, but there are clearly defined heads of this project (Sorn, DbS, and VVrayven). These are the people who are obviously the heart and soul of this entire enterprise, and they should, IMHO, have oversight on the project. They get the final say on how the mechanics work.
> 
> Centralized systems of decision like this may be less "fair", but they're always more efficient, and that's something that is paramount to the GUCK.






> The rest of us can lobby our positions but there are only three votes.




I'm flattered by the importance you place on some of us, but I wouldn't go that far. The GUCK conversion was always envisaged as a community effort (we wouldn't have got far if it hadn't) and the entire board's opinions are valued. However much any of us oldies likes an idea, condemnation from the rest of the board means that we've obviously got something wrong, and this applies to everyone. I would have withdrawn my proposal if it had proved unpopular, but as things are (unless there are any other voices to be raised) the consensus seems to be for it, so I feel it should be held.

The detailed rules are well thought out and very accurate, but beyonds the needs of many a group; simpler rules seem like less of a burden and are hence more likely to be used. We have been embroiled in difficult statistics and such previously, but these have been used to work toward simple and balanced final rules, and this is the manner in which I feel we should continue.

In response to everybody's suggestions and ideas, I would move for the following:

A) In a conception roll, a 1 is always a failure and a 20 is always a success. This stops imbalances, and holds true to the eccentricity of such a process. Perfect contraception (or conception) is solely the domain of high level magic, and is unavailable to the public.

B) Regarding mundane methods, entries on the mundane equipment table will be marked 'Contraceptive' and 'Masterwork Contaceptive', affording +1 and +2 bonuses, respectively. I would suggest the first weighs in at 1sp, the second at 5gp.

C) Magical methods: Magic would offer an additional level of protection, but would be relatively expensive and available only to the wealthy. I would suggest the following spell:

Barren Land
Necromancy
Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V,S,M,DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 month (D)
Saving throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
You channel negative energy into a creature, hampering their efforts to sow the seed of life. Conception rolls involving the creature suffer a -1 enhancement penalty / caster level, up to a maximum of -5. This modifier stacks with the modifier from mundane contraception.
Barren land counters and dispels Fertile fields.
Arcane Material Component: Some fresh grass.
Divine Focus: Your deity's holy symbol.

This of course can be infused to make a potion:

Potion / Market price
Barren land / 25gp
Barren land (caster level 2nd) / 50gp
Barren land (caster level 3rd) / 75gp
Barren land (caster level 4th) / 100gp
Barren land (caster level 5th) / 125gp

Such protection is deliberately beyond the reach of common folk, who must resort to more primitive methods. I would disagree with 'communal contraception' as it devalues magic by making it a drab, monthly task.

C) Withdrawal: We don't have any responsibility to encourage or discourage the practice, but this is a far from perfect method at the best of times, and the mechanics should reflect that. When a male is using a Penetrative proficiency and Climaxes, he may use the first round of the extended round to attempt withdrawal. This is an exception to the rule that Climaxed characters are considered stunned. He may not be stimulated into an extended Climax, and may not use his Penetrative proficiency on his partner that round, but receives a 20% conception miss chance. The Withdrawal manoeuvre increases this miss chance (see below).

VETERAN'S KNACK
Requires 3 Ranks Prowess – Withdrawal
May be activated before rolling for a conception miss chance from withdrawal. The miss chance is increased to 50%. If both partners employ this manoeuvre, the miss chance is increased to 90%. This ability is instantaneous.

D) Perhaps a sidebar on contraception in society, detailing availability, changes to roles and common attitudes would be warranted, but it would be best concise as Gms will undoubtedly have their own opinions.

E) We start arguing over pregnancy rules instead.

That's my thoughts spent.

DbS

PS. VVrayven, how are you getting along? Last thing I heard, you were working on spell lists, but you haven't posted in awhile. It would be a shame to lose your hand in the work.


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## VVrayven (Jun 29, 2003)

Hello all. Sorry for my absence. Life was very hellish last week and I needed the weekend any from gaming, computers, and everything tojust relax with my boyfriend. I'm feeling much better now. I have been following the preg/contra leads and find it all very interesting. My opinions mirror DbS's for the most part so I fear I have little to add to that discussion.

My soft core mechanics are done and were posted a couple of weeks ago. DbS you can feel free to write the flavor text around them if you wish, stating that it takes about an hour and both people are fatigued and so forth. 

I am working on the spell list. I should have something for posting soon. Take care all.

::hugs::


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 30, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All in favor of cutting down rolls*



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If I may, I think that you've lost touch with what we're trying to make here. If anyone actually thinks that they can use things in the GUCK for real sexuality...well, they'd be thinking very foolishly.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make here is that we should not even bother to consider that anything here may "reinforce" anything among real people. That's completely beyond the scope of the GUCK to assume anyone is that foolish - at most, a disclaimer should be added to the beginning, but that's no reason to change an otherwise-perfectly fine mechanic. *




         I know people *SHOULDN'T* use the information to apply to reality, but I still find myself uncomfortable with a game mechanic that supports a common misconception.

        I do agree that a disclaimer where it is presented would be ok.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jun 30, 2003)

*Originally posted by Death By Surfeit 
A) In a conception roll, a 1 is always a failure and a 20 is always a success. This stops imbalances, and holds true to the eccentricity of such a process. Perfect contraception (or conception) is solely the domain of high level magic, and is unavailable to the public.*

        Why?  It seems that even a first level spell has plenty of power to provide perfectly reliable contraception.

*C) Withdrawal: We don't have any responsibility to encourage or discourage the practice,*

        I was just worried about promoting the notion that it's completely effective.  Encountering a woman in her 30's/4 children (3 due to contraceptive failures) who didn't know it didn't work was rather eye-opening.  (Note, furthermore, that every relative of hers I'm aware of married because of pregnancy.)

*proficiency on his partner that round, but receives a 20% conception miss chance. The Withdrawal manoeuvre increases this miss chance (see below).

VETERAN'S KNACK
Requires 3 Ranks Prowess – Withdrawal
May be activated before rolling for a conception miss chance from withdrawal. The miss chance is increased to 50%. If both partners employ this manoeuvre, the miss chance is increased to 90%. This ability is instantaneous.*

          I like this much better.


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## Lucien Black (Jun 30, 2003)

I generally don't say much, just check in to see how things are coming, but I thought I'd point out that the Magic of Faerun (or one of the faerun books, I don't have them here at the moment) has a rather cheap potion that makes you sterile for 28 days... no conception chance.

Good job y'all!  

Lucien


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## Death By Surfeit (Jun 30, 2003)

VVrayven, it's good to hear from you, and I look forward to the fruits of your spell list work. To be honest, I've had a similar weekend .

There is clearly some discrepancy over the availability of contraception, but I feel it would best be addressed when we're discussing the spells and equipment sections - the core conception rules I feel are a reasonable enough compromise. I would suggest we move on to discuss pregnancy instead.

I’ve finally brought the interbreeding rules to term, and the rough rules are presented below for your reading pleasure and target practice. It isn’t as smooth as many of the rules we’ve composed, but was the best way I could find of handling the matter in a concise way – I felt it silly for the Guide to avoid the subject entirely. Read through, and tell me what you think; alterations, rewordings and outright rejections are welcome.

Phew.

DbS

* * *

INTERBREEDING
In the myriad of creatures found across the Great Wheel, few have the common blood necessary to breed together. The following rules provide rules on which humanoid couplings can bear fruit, and guidelines for other unions. They are by necessity intricate and indefinite, and DMs are advised to use their good sense when deciding matters for the group.

All relationships between races are given as one of three types: Related, Relatable or Unrelatable, and this governs the possibilities of conception and form of the child. As a unless two races are specified as Related or Relatable to each other, they are to be considered Unrelated.

Related
The two races share common blood, being related at some point in their distant ancestry. When rolling for conception, use the higher DC of the two races. The child borne of this coupling has an equal chance of being of one race or the other. The Related format applies to races with a clear halfbreed status (such as half-elves with elves) or those with such similar characteristics that it seems logical that interbreeding could occur.

Relatable
The races are distinct and separate, but there is the possibility of procreation. When rolling for conception, use the higher DC of the two races. Should the coupling bear fruit, the child will be a halfbreed, combining their characteristics, who is in turn Related to both parent races. The Relatable format applies to races who have defined halfbreeds between them (such as humans with elves).

Unrelatable
The races are too different for any possibility of interbreeding to occur. Conception checks between these races automatically fail, even on a natural 20. Potent magics may be able to spawn combinations of the two; if so, the child will be a halfbreed, combining the characteristics of both races.

Sidebar: Halfbreeds
In many campaign settings, halfbreeds are very much the exception to the norm. The rules above assume that this is not because of biological factors, but of social ones. Members of one race must overcome geographic segregation, social disapproval and not least differences in desires, emotions and lifespans that separate them from their partners in order to achieve a successful coupling, and this accounts for halfbreed’s rarity. The rules use the higher fertility DC of the two parents, but no additional modifiers: it is assumed that the more virile race makes up for any drop in interracial fertility, and so no further penalties are applied.

Subraces
Subraces of common humanoids, such as the myriad types of elves, dwarves and halflings are slight variants on their own race. They are considered Related to their fellow subraces, and follow the same characteristics of their species as a whole when breeding with other races. For example, aquatic, moon, wild, wood elves and drow are all Relatable to humans, and the child of such a coupling will always be a half-elf, regardless of which subrace of elf was involved.

Humans
Humans have far and above the most freedom in choosing a partner amongst hte humanoids; their seed is as flexible as their minds and culture. Humans are Relatable to elves and orcs, and Related to the offspring of such unions, half-elves and –orcs. They are also Related to halflings, the latter race having originated through the coupling of Humans and some lost species of yesteryear. Humans are also considered Relatable to fey (excluding sprites), producing elven offspring, or half-fey in the case of nymphs and satyrs.

Elves & Half-Elves
The many species of elves are considered Relatable to humans and Related to half-elves, but this is the extent of their ability to breed with other humanoids. However, elves are Related to many fey, with the exception of sprites, with whom they are Unrelatable; and nymphs and satyrs, with whom they are Relatable, forming half-fey. Half-elves are Related to both parent races, and may breed with feys as if they were humans (see above).

Orcs & Half-Orcs
Orcs are considered Relatable to humans, forming half-orc offspring. They may also interrelate with the bestial humanoids that take their characteristics, such as gnolls and lizardmen. Half-orcs are Relatable to orcs and humans, but no other humanoids.

Dwarves
Dwarven subraces are usually confined to their own kind, and cannot breed with non-dwarves. They are, however, Related to gnomes, having bred with some since-lost race to produce the race.

Gnomes & Halflings
Gnomes and halflings were originally the halfbreeds of a long lost race that spawned them, and are considered Related to their existing racial parents (dwarves and humans, respectively) and each other. They typically eschew larger partners, however, because of size concerns.

Yuan-Ti
Yuan-Ti employ vile alchemy to infuse snake blood into the veins of captives and their own race, but simple procreation is a ready alternative. Abominations are Relatable to humans and purebloods, spawning purebloods and halfbloods respectively, and Related to halfbloods and snakes. Halfbloods are Related to purebloods and abominations. Purebloods are Relatable to humans and abominations, forming tainted one (SS) and abomination offspring, respectively, and Related to halfbloods and tainted ones. Tainted ones are Related to humans and purebloods, and Relatable to halfbloods and abominations, forming pureblood offspring.

Nymphs & Satyrs
Nymphs and satyrs are powerful embodiments of masculinity and femininity, and this is reflected in their fecundity. They are considered Relatable to any humanoid, producing a half-fey child with the same gender as the fey parent. They may freely interbreed with each other, as they are of the same race.

Bestial Humanoids
Bestial humanoids such as gnolls, lizardmen, and kobolds are Related to the humanoid race and the animal or beast from which they acquire their characteristics: gnolls are related to orcs and hyenas, lizardmen to orcs and monitor lizards, and kobolds to goblins and raptors. Their humanoid kin generally spurn their company, and they in turn find relations with animals somewhat beneath them, so interbreeding rarely occurs.

Dragons
Dragons are relatively infertile (accounting for their scarcity) but their seed crosses many racial boundaries; they are considered Relatable to any other living creature, producing half-dragon offspring. They may not breed with other varieties of dragons, however. Half-dragons are Related to their basic and draconic race, and may breed with others as though a member of their non-draconic parent race, with a 50% chance that their offspring will also be considered a half-dragon.

Giants
Civilised giants (hill, fire, ice etc.) are Related to each other, but Unrelatable to other creatures. Ogres are Relatable to orcs and humans, producing half-ogre offspring. Half-ogres are Related to ogres, humans and orcs, but cannot interbreed with other humanoids.

Outsiders
Outsiders are infused with a quasi-divine power that allows them great discretion in interbreeding; those capable of breeding are Relatable to any living creature. However, outsiders embody unique concepts that cannot be easily tainted; they may not interbreed with other. Children borne of couplings with outsiders are the non-outsider parent’s race, but subject to the appropriate race. Those celestials and fiends capable of breeding produce half-celestials and half-fiend (MM) children, respectively. Other outsiders of strong alignment are treated similarly, but the child is subject to the celestial, fiendish, anarchic or axiomatic template accordingly (MM for first two, MotP for the others). Pairings with pseudonatural creatures produce pseudonatural children (MotP; NOT EHB rules). If an outsider does not fit in any of these categories, the result is left up to the DM, although the child will always be modified to Outsider status.

Half-Outsiders
Half-outsiders are more restricted in interbreeding, and follow the patterns of a normal member of their basic race. The children of half-celestials, half-fiends, celestial, fiendish, anarchic and axiomatic creatures are planetouched (MM & MM2) according to their celestial parentage if the child is a humanoid; otherwise, the divine taint fades and their offspring will be a normal member of their race. Children of a planetouched, if humanoid, retain their parent’s trait.

Deities
The deities can create races by their own hand, and so mundane procreation is of little challenge to them. They are Relatable to anything, including each other. Their children, rich with divine blood in their veins, are best represented by the application of the Paragon template (EHB), or Beast of Legend (SS) if the basic parent race is an animal or beast.

Other Creature Types
Other creatures are generally Unrelatable to other races, unless specified above. Potent magic arts may allow living creatures to father children with other races, in which case they are considered Relatable. Typically, couplings with animals form anthropomorphic creatures (SS), those with beasts form tauric creatures (MM2/SS), those with elementals form half-elementals (MotP), those with fey form half-fey of a sort, those with giants form larger creatures (MM size increase rules), those with oozes form half-oozes (SS), those with plants form wood element creatures (MotP), and those with vermin form insectile creatures (SS). Those with beasts and animals may produce new bestial humanoids, at the GM’s discretion. Those with aberrations and magical beasts are extremely erratic, and best left up to the GM’s devices.

Sidebar: Changing the Rules
As DM, you may exercise your discretion over all the rules above, changing them in accordance to your materials and campaign setting. If a rule contradicts something you’ve written into your campaign, sounds stupid or has adverse consequences, ignore the rules, or make up your own. If you have created or have access to material beyond those in WotC rulebooks, you may wish to extend the interbreeding rules accordingly. For example, if you have rules for half-dwarves, you could change Dwarves’ relationship to humans to Relatable. The GUCK offers a single extension of its own, in the form of the Half-fey template, so that nymphs and satyrs who would normally be Unrelatable (or Related) are instead Relatable to many species. Likewise, you may wish to restrict certain spells if you do not wish or are unable to accommodate the results in your game.


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## Sorn (Jun 30, 2003)

DbS, good stuff. Let's just go with that and see what happens once we finish out Equipment and Spells. 

The interbreeding section looks good to me. Let's move on to Pregnancy.


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## Yair (Jul 1, 2003)

*Interbreeding*

I just had a problem with inbreeding, thanks for the rules Death By Surfeit. It appears my players have good timing.
By-the-way, my players mixed their (fey'ri = demonic-elven) blood with goblin blood, and it seems that of the common humanoids the goblins are the only ones that, for some reason, are missing from your list. 
Also, I believe kobolds are reptilian by heritage, but this may be my own bias.
Don't miss understand - the rules seem great, and did help me decide how to deal with the situation. Thanks again.

BTW, isn't the Yuan-Ti not OGC? And the MotP et al sure aren't. I do not believe the project (which I do like) is quite legal under the OGL and d20 License, but perhaps you don't mind.

Thanks for the rules, and hoping to see the project completed, sometime, 
Yair, the Bane of My Players


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## Liquid Snake (Jul 1, 2003)

I think it's only Beholders and Mind Flayers that are not OGC. But soon enough a new 3.5-updated SRD document will be posted so we should wait and see that one before drawing any conclusions.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 2, 2003)

Some more thoughts on withdrawl and Veteran's Knack:

         How about:  It's totally effective at preventing ejaculation inside the female.  However, penetration without climax still has a 10% chance of requiring a pregnancy roll.


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## Xeriar (Jul 2, 2003)

> Nymphs & Satyrs
> Nymphs and satyrs are powerful embodiments of masculinity and femininity, and this is reflected in their fecundity. They are considered Relatable to any humanoid, producing a half-fey child with the same gender as the fey parent. They may freely interbreed with each other, as they are of the same race.




AHHH!

Female Satyr == Maenad!

/me wonders why the hell no RPG ever includes these?


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## Sorn (Jul 2, 2003)

> Female Satyr == Maenad!




I'll make a note and add that to the racial stuff when I get the chance. Anything special about Maenads that should go in there?


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 2, 2003)

I know maenads are female satyrs, but the MM makes no mention of them, and we have no responsibility to introduce them. I figured that if satyrs = only male, embodiment of masculinity and nymphs = only female, embodiments of femininity, it kinda makes sense to have them as the same species.

Oh, and thanks for pointing out the goblins. They are Related to orcs, being crossbreeds between them and the now-mythical smaller race. As a result of this, they are also Related to gnomes and halflings. Kobolds do indeed have a reptilian heritage. Raptors are reptiles, and appropriately sized (going up to the size of a large dog, Jurassic Park fans).

Speak to you all soon,

DbS

PS. Is everyone avoiding pregnancy?


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## Sorn (Jul 2, 2003)

Sounds like a plan... as far as pregnancy goes, I don't think that anyone is avoiding it. We just need the go-ahead from the conception end of things. The only thing left there is the final verdict on the conception issue, but that doesn't really affect anything else, so let's get going on pregnancy.


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## Gez (Jul 3, 2003)

Liquid Snake said:
			
		

> *I think it's only Beholders and Mind Flayers that are not OGC. But soon enough a new 3.5-updated SRD document will be posted so we should wait and see that one before drawing any conclusions. *




Beholders, mindflayers, yuan-ti, displacer beasts, slaadi... -- those are those that I remember of. There may be others. For more safety, works from the SRD, not from the books.


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## VVrayven (Jul 3, 2003)

Hiya guys. Okay, before I get tackled (heh) for bringing up something off key topic, let me explain. The spells are going to take a bit of doing and we need more of them. I have taken on the task of becoming Mistress of Spells. Unless someone wants to challenge me to single combat for the role (and I warn you, I can be vicious! )

From now on I'll be accepting new spells as contributions and will maintain a list of them until we can discuss the new ones. I'm updating the spells for the new mechanics and I'd like all of the spells to come through me. Sorn: I've got a font corrected version of them that I will send you when I'm done. Right now everything is in database entries. 

So, I don't intend to derail the current pregnacy discussions, but I want to post my progress as I go. Objections?

So, here is the first part. Cantrips:

Arousal
Transmutation 
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S, M 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Touch 
Target: Creature touched 
Duration: 10 minutes +1 minute/level 
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates 
Spell Resistance: Yes 

This spell triggers the physiological sexual response in the affected creature. The target creature gains the aroused status condition for the listed duration. If the character is male, he is erect and ready to penetrate; if female, this means her nipples and clitorises are hardening and her vagina is lubricating. 
Arousal affects creatures that reproduce without intercourse (piscines, mind flayers, etc.) as if it were a daze spell. 
Material Component: A sprig of mistletoe.

Contraception 
Necromancy 
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Touch 
Target: Creature touched 
Duration: Instantaneous 
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless) 
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) 

<<Pending>>

Comeliness
Transmutation 
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S, M/DF 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Touch 
Target: Creature touched 
Duration: 30 minutes/level 
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) 
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) 

You imbue the subject with magical energy that provides them with a clear complexion and enhances their attractive features. The creature gains a +1 enhancement bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform, and Sexual Prowess checks. 
Arcane Material Component: A bit of powdered rouge.

Delay Orgasm 
Abjuration 
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
Target: 1 creature 
Duration: 1 minute/level (D) 
Saving Throw: Will negates 
Spell Resistance: Yes 

Delay orgasm prevents a subject from achieving orgasm. Creatures under the effects of this spell who are raised to the climax or ecstatic status condition instead remain in the peaked condition. Any orgasms which should have taken place will occur at the end of the spell's duration. For example, if Lina is affected by a delay orgasm spell and is brought to climax twice during the spell's duration, she will simply remain peaked. However, after the spell is ended, she will spend the next two rounds in climax status.

Detect Disease 
Divination 
Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
Target or Area: One creature, one object, or a 5-ft. cube 
Duration: Instantaneous 
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: No 

You determine whether a creature, object, or area has contracted or carries a disease. You can determine the exact type of disease with a successful Intelligence check (DC 20). A character with the Heal skill may try a Heal check (DC 20) if the Intelligence check fails, or may try the Heal check prior to the Intelligence check. 
Note: The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. 

Detect Pregnancy 
Divination 
Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Rgr 1 
Components: V, S, DF 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
Target: One living creature 
Duration: Instantaneous 
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: No 

This spell enables you to detect pregnancy in any creature. You can determine the day of conception, stage of pregnancy, estimated day of birth, and gender of the child(ren) with a successful Wisdom check (DC 20). 
Note: Marsupials, who are able to get slightly pregnant, will cause the caster to be confused for one round if she fails a Will save (DC 13). 

Detect Romantic Interest 
Divination 
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0 
Components: S 
Casting Time: 1 round 
Range: Touch 
Target: Creature touched 
Duration: Instantaneous 
Saving Throw: Will partial 
Spell Resistance: No 

This spell enables you to detect the existence of an unspoken love, crush, or romantic interest in any creature. Creatures unwilling to share such information gain a Will saving throw to reveal only the fact that they have a romantic interest. Should the save fail, detect romantic interest also reveals the identity of the subject's crush. 
Detect romantic interest never reveals the existence of affections towards the caster. 

Embarrassing Wilting 
Transmutation 
Level: Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: S, M 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
Target: One living male creature 
Duration: 10 minutes 
Saving Throws: Fortitude negates 
Spell Resistance: Yes 

If the subject of embarrassing wilting enters the peaked status condition, his penis temporarily "withers" and becomes completely flaccid for the remainder of the spell's duration.
The victim's sexual state is not altered by this spell, nor does it prevent him from being further aroused. It merely renders his penis physically limp and consequently prevents him from using penetrative techniques.
This spell is considered to be a curse for all effects for which it might be relevant. 
Material Component: A small piece of thread. 

Pillow Talk 
Illusion (Glamer) 
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: 10 ft. 
Target: One pillow 
Duration: 10 minutes/level (D) 
Saving Throw: Will negates (object) 
Spell Resistance: Yes (object) 

You imbue the chosen pillow with an enchanted mouth that suddenly appears and speaks at length about sex. At the time of casting, you decide whether the voice will be male, female, or indistinguishable, which language it will speak (of the languages that you know), and how racy or vulgar the mouth will be (anywhere from perverse smut to intellectual discussions on sexual techniques). 

Prevent Nausea 
Conjuration (Healing) 
Level: Clr 0, Drd 0 
Components: V, S 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Touch 
Target: Living creature touched 
Duration: 10 minutes/level 
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) 

You settle the stomach of the creature touched. Prevent nausea will completely remove any current nausea the subject suffers from, and will ensure that the subject does not become nauseated for the duration of the spell. 

Repulsive 
Transmutation 
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S, M/DF 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Touch 
Target: Creature touched 
Duration: 30 minutes/level 
Saving Throw: Will negates 
Spell Resistance: Yes 

You wrack the subject with magical energy that blights them with a pimples, greasy hair, and a -1 enhancement penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform, and Sexual Prowess checks. 
Arcane Material Component: A bit of mud or dung.

Sex Toy 
Conjuration (Creation) 
Level: Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
Effect: One created creature 
Duration: 10 minutes/level 
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: No 

You create a very attractive person of the same race and preferred sex from thin air. The creation (for this is but a magical construct, not a true person) has no equipment or clothing, but has a cheery personality and will strive to do please you with whatever sexual acts you can come up with. The sex toy has a total bonus to Sexual Prowess checks of +4, but doesn't possess any proficiencies, and so can only perform the most basic acts. 
When the spell ends or the toy takes a single point of damage, the sex toy vanishes without a trace.

Slap 
Evocation [Force] 
Level: Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./level) 
Target: One creature 
Duration: Instantaneous 
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: Yes 

You forcefully slap the target with a magical force. You must succeed at a ranged touch attack, but a successful hit will do 1 point of subdual damage, leave a stinging red mark, and require spellcasters to make a Concentration check in order to cast a spell. 

Tweak 
Evocation 
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
Target: One creature 
Duration: Instantaneous 
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: Yes 

You playfully squeeze or pinch a soft part of the target's body with a magical force. You must be able to see the body part you wish to target, and any armor or natural armor covering it will prevent the tweak from being felt. Tweak does no damage, but it may cause embarrassment and does require spellcasters to make a Concentration check in order to cast a spell. 

Voyeur's Sight 
Divination 
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S, M 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Touch 
Target: Creature touched 
Duration: 1 minute/level 
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: No 

Voyeur's sight allows the subject to concentrate on a creature and see through that creature's clothing and equipment to the naked skin beyond. You cannot see thorough metal of any sort, nor through any magical object, such as a robe of useful items. 
Material Component: A small piece of cloth and a small piece of glass. 

Wet Dream 
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] 
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, M 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
Target: One living creature 
Duration: Special 
Saving Throw: Will negates 
Spell Resistance: Yes 

You speak an arcane word to the target, which he will not understand without a Spellcraft check (DC 15). If the target fails his Will save, he will experience a dream erotic enough to produce an orgasm the next time he falls asleep. 
Material Component: A feather tinged with blood.

That's it for now. ::hugs:: to all!


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## Liquid Snake (Jul 4, 2003)

*VVrayven's Spells*

I think some of those spells should be on the Adept's spell list, mostly divinations like "Detect Pregnancy". I figure the "ol'-crazy-toothless-hermit-woman" should be able to help with stuff like that.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 4, 2003)

Wrayven, I like your spells.  How about some more:

Greater sex toy: Sor/Wiz 1
Range: Close
Duration: 1 hr/level
Save: No
SR: Yes

         Instead of simply creating an arbitrary sex toy, it creates a copy of a nearby creature (or the caster).  The copy has the stats the target currently (including any buffs & items) has (while the spells on the copy will not end, normal stacking rules apply), all sexual skills (including erotic perform skills) knowledge of the target creature and a +1/level enchantment bonus to sexual prowess.  It speaks any languages the target speaks and has the general knowledge of the target.  It has no knowledge that the target desires to keep secret.
        Any checks required for any non-sexual purpose will automatically fail even if a 1 would succeed.
        The toy may be naked, or it may be clothed in illusionary copies of what the target is wearing--these will disappear if any attempt is made to remove them.
        The toy is horny and aroused for the entire duration of the spell.  Male toys do not lose their erection for any reason.
        The toy will act as the caster commands, if undirected it will seek sex with the caster or else anybody around.

(Got a better name for this one?)
Pig:  Any 2.
Range: Touch
Save: Special
SR: Yes
Duration: 1 hr/level
Components: None

        This spell is inherently quickened, and subject to the normal rules of quickened spells.
        The target is polymorphed (as per polymorph other) into an ordinary pig for the duration.
        The spell may only be cast on a creature which is touching the caster in an inappropriate fashion.  The save:
        If the creature doing the touching knows the touch is inappropriate, he gets no save.
        If the touch is appropriate by the standards of the creature doing the touching but not by the standards of the caster's culture then the target gets a normal save.
        If the touch is actually appropriate by the caster's culture but not to the caster, if the touch was inadvertent or if the toucher was acting to aid the caster (ie, removing a dangerous bug etc.) then the target saves on a 2 or better.
        Finally, if the casting is completely unjustified the spell has no effect.


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## Alzrius (Jul 4, 2003)

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *Hiya guys. Okay, before I get tackled (heh) for bringing up something off key topic, let me explain. The spells are going to take a bit of doing and we need more of them. I have taken on the task of becoming Mistress of Spells. Unless someone wants to challenge me to single combat for the role (and I warn you, I can be vicious! )*




Hmm, I'm considering it. You had plenty of time to make this spell list, since these spells have been over on the Online Guide's spell section for a while now. 

That said, I just wanted to offer my critiques and opinions before I go on to post a few spells of my own.



> *Arousal
> Transmutation
> Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 *




Like Liquid Snake said, some of these should take the Adept NPC class into account. This would be a good one for that.



> *Contraception
> Necromancy
> Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V, S
> ...




Despite the recent amount of discussion, I think the flavor text and description given over in the Online Guide remain perfect here. It should, using the game's internal consistency, only take enough negative energy that this spell would be a cantrip. I would add Adept to the spell list here though.



> *Detect Disease
> Divination
> Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V, S
> ...




I wrote a Detect Disease spell for the EN World Player's Journal issue 2 that was pretty much exactly the same as this. Great minds.  This one seems like it should be an Adept spell also.



> *Detect Pregnancy
> Divination
> Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Rgr 1
> Components: V, S, DF
> ...




The marsupials note seems a tad bit too specific. Rather, I'd say that this should be broadened to talk about any creature with differing ways of giving birth. Heavens help you if you try and use this spell on a Grand Old Master neogi, for example. This one should probably also be an Adept spell.



> *Detect Romantic Interest
> Divination
> Level: Brd 0, Clr 0
> Components: S
> ...




I'm sure there is a reason for why the spell doesn't reveal when the caster is the crush, but would you say what that is? That restriction seems odd here.



> *Embarrassing Wilting
> Transmutation
> Level: Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: S, M
> ...




It probably isn't necessary that badly, but a note that female creatures and creatures with no phallus are unaffected by this spell. This one should also probably be an Adept spell.



> *Sex Toy
> Conjuration (Creation)
> Level: Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V, S
> ...




This seems a bit much for a cantrip. It's bringing an entire physical creature into existance for a relatively lengthy duration, and they have a rather hefty natural bonus to Prowess checks. You should probably mention the other limitations of this magical construct...can it speak? Fetch objects? Fight?



> *Slap
> Evocation [Force]
> Level: Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V, S
> ...




You should list the DC of the Concentration check here. Considering that this actually inflicts damage, the DC would be 10 (base) + 1 (damage this spell inflicts) + spell level (the spell that the injured spellcaster is trying to cast).



> *Tweak
> Evocation
> Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V, S
> ...




Again, I think you should list the Concentration DC here. Since this one doesn't inflict damage, it should be calculated differently. Distracting but non-damaging spells have their save DC (or what it would be) + spell level for a concentration DC. So the DC here is (0 + key ability modifier) + (level of spell the victim is casting).



> *Voyeur's Sight
> Divination
> Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V, S, M
> ...




You might want to add in a note that this spell works in an "all or nothing" manner. The spell won't let you see past only the clothes that you want to - you either see the person normally, or completely without clothes (the clothes that it can't penetrate, metal and magic, remain then). Likewise, this spell won't let you see what's in someone's pocket by looking through the fabric, since that's only partial "x-ray vision".

Whew! Now, all that said, I had a few ideas myself. Note that not all of these are cantrips.

Burning Loins
Transmutation
Level: Adp 0, Clr 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Component: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
Target: One living creature
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell creates a mildly painful burning sensation in the target creature's loins when they become physically aroused. When the target creature is in a state of Aroused or higher, they take 1 point of subdual damage per round, and a -1 circumstance penalty to Sexual Prowess checks.
This spell is considered to be a curse for all effects for which it might be relevant.
Material Component: Ashes from a burnt twig.

Flavorful
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Rgr 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Component: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell causes the target creature's body fluids to become sweet and delicious like candy in terms of taste and smell. Creatures using any of the Oral proficiencies of the Sexual Prowess skill on the target creature gain a +1 bonus to their Sexual Prowess checks.
Material Component: Either a beeswax candle or a small jar of honey.

Premature Orgasm
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Component: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
Target: One living creature
Duration: see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Casting this spell on a target creature causes them to immediately have an orgasm the next time they become physically aroused. The length of time between the casting of this spell and when the target next becomes Aroused can be any length of time. Males immediately go into Recovery after this (see Chapter 4: Congress). No gratification points are gained for the orgasm brought on by this spell (see Chapter 4: Congress).
This spell may be detected on the target creature before it is triggered and dispelled as normal. 
Material Component: Any cream-filled pastry, which the caster squeezes during the casting of this spell.

Raging Desire
Enchantment [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Casting this spell on a creature makes it subconsciously equate battle-lust with sexual lust. While affected by this spell, the creature must make a Will save (DC 13 + ability modifier) every round while in combat, with a cumulative -1 circumstance penalty for every additional combat round that passes, or become both Aroused and Horny. The usual conditions for performing non-sexual actions while in these states still apply (see Chapter 4: Congress). The target creature does not automatically lose these conditions when the spell ends; these conditions are resolved normally.
A creature under this spell reacts more favorably to combat-similar foreplay; DSM profiencies of the Sexual Prowess skill used against the target creature gain a +2 bonus.
Note that while this spell arouses a creature during battle, it will not drive them to force themselves on another creature during combat where they normally wouldn't be inclined to do so. 

Unattainable Orgasm
Transmutation
Level: Adp 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Component: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 day/level (D)
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The victim of this spell is unable to come to a sexual release. Prowess checks that would cause the creature to become Climaxed or Ecstatic instead leave the creature Peaked. Spells of 4th level or lower that induce orgasm simply fail, though higher-level spells take effect normally, ending this spell immediately. Orgasms are supressed by this spell, not suspended; when the spell ends, the target creature does not immediately undergo the orgasms this spell denied them.
This spell is considered to be a curse for all effects for which it might be relevant.


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## Xeriar (Jul 4, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'll make a note and add that to the racial stuff when I get the chance. Anything special about Maenads that should go in there? *




Satyrs and Maenads are revelers (more individual that hordes of Bacchae or whatever...) - they dance and seduce and are none too timid as a race.

IMO not much needs to be said, except perhaps to say that female satyrs are often called Maenads.

I've always thought of Nymphs as being something else.  Every (heterosexual) man's desire, sure, but Satyrs are not the same for women (err, most women, I hope...).

But if they are going to have a masculine counterpart, it would be something different.  It could likely be some sort of attractive man who has mood swings to perfectly complement a woman's monthly cycle, for example...


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## VVrayven (Jul 4, 2003)

> Hmm, I'm considering it. You had plenty of time to make this spell list, since these spells have been over on the Online Guide's spell section for a while now.




Hey, cut a poor girl some slack. I had other stuff to do too.  And wait till you see the higher level ones. <giggle>

Thanks for the great suggestions Alzrius, I'm considering most of them and updating them. I'll add in yours spells to my DB and Spell List sections. 

Loren Pechtel: PIG needs some work. I'll edit it and see what works. Good ideas though.

Just one quick question, how does the offical text for adding adept list list look, Just Adept 0? Okay, now please continue with the pregnacy disucussion before DbS really thinks I'm being bad and trying to rerail the agenda.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 4, 2003)

Thanks for the spells, VVrayven and Alzrius, I'll look over them presently. Try not to infight too much - if we tackle each spell level as a group, proposing a set of our own or those already posted when they come to us, the yask will be much easier.

Oh, and why you'd want to be a Mistress, Alzrius, I can only speculate. There are plenty of titles to go around - Master of Spells would be more fitting, I guess. Bags on Grand Vizier of spells! 

We must, however, bear in mind that however fun it is to come up with reams of variously useful and humourous spells, we should be conservative regarding those we put in and the classes with access to them - we don't want to double any spell lists! I would recommend keeping the 'functional' spells that are good only for sexual actions to a small proportion, encouraging those that also have a non-sexual (inc. combat) application and those that are quietly witty. However, I doubt we have space for purely 'gag' spells.

Right, I'll drop my sense of humour and get down to the nitty-gritty.

*dons critic glasses*

Spells from the Mistress:
Arousal: Good, functional spell. I would propose 'arousing hands' (below) as a possible alternative.
Contraception: I still hold to the 'barren land' version. Bah, humbug. Add adept, remove sor/wiz.
Comeliness: Nice idea; useful, and well balanced. You may want to add a Will save to realise that the augmentation is magical (negate bonuses). Drop cleric.
Delay Orgasm: Useful, but a little flavourless.
Detect Disease: Good, useful and balanced. Keep! Possibly a 1st level spell - what do the rest of you think?
Detect Pregnancy: May give too much detail for a 0th-level; I would allow a Heal check in addition to Wisdom. I concur with Alzrius's comments. Add adept.
Detect Romantic Interest: Too subjective (hidden love?), and too powerful in some campaigns for 0th level. What happens if there are multiple interests?
Embarrassing Wilting: Remove duration, state that he goes into Recovery instead. Add adept.
Pillow Talk: A bit of a gag spell? What application would it have?
Prevent Nausea: Quite good, but possibly of too much of a niche application. Clerics would be unlikely to prepare it (due to short duration).
Repulsion: Replace title with 'unsightliness', 'repulsiveness' or 'ugliness' add clause to state it dispels comeliness. Again, drop cleric.
Sex Toy: Consider changing title. Replace 'total bonus of +4' with 'Charisma of 14 (+2 bonus)' and 'no skills'. Remove 'unable to perform...'. Alzrius's comments are valid here. Consider making it a first level spell, with a 'Charisma bonus equal to caster level (maximum +5)' but no skills, feats, etc. Should not have the ability to make conversation (but can groan) or do anything but sexual activities. You could call it a fragment of the caster's libido given form.
Slap: Good, and likely to be popular. Keep!
Tweak: Remove necessity of seeing anatomy - implies it could only be used when target is indecently exposed. Add clause of 'blushing likely'. Concentration check would be DC 10 + spell level.
Voyeur's Sight: Maybe too niche? Possibly add that it cannot pierce illusions, but offers a +10 enhancement bonus to Spot checks made to realise a person is Disguised.
Wet Dream: A bit pointless. I'd either give it a game effect and add spell levels, or drop.

Spells from Loren:
Greater sex toy: Very iffy. The clause of failing to do any non-sexual checks is an awkward way of doing things, and the spell is a obtuse way of achieving the effect. We should cap prowess bonuses to level, +5 per spell level (like with healing spells).
Pig: Hmmm.... okay, but PCs would be irritated if they could be polymorphed by touchy (not intended) 3rd-level spellcasters. Reverse: 'Prig'. 

Spells from the Master:
Byrning loins: Unsure when it would be used. Neat name, though.
Flavourful: Very cantrip-y. Keep! Remove cleric.
Premature orgasm: I'd say it were too powerful. Detecting and dispelling isn't too easy, and the opportunity to automatically screw up a character's next sexual act lies above 1st level. Jump up the spell level, and make it permanent (D), requiring a Fort save every time the character becomes Aroused to avoid premature orgasm. Add adept.
Raging Lust: Interesting. Good idea, but the effect and spell text could do with reworking.
Unattainable orgasm: Perhaps make it mirror premature orgasm, and state that they dispel each other.

*removes glasses, rubs nose*

That pretty much sums it up. Oh, and Xeriar, nymphs do not embody men's desire, but rather femininity. Just as women may not like satyrs because they are 'too' masculine, so might a nymph be beyond some men's tastes. Yes, maenads do exist in some literature, but there is no mention of them in D&D and there is no need to add them. Besides, it would mean working out something else for how nymphs breed. 

Cheers,

DbS


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## Alzrius (Jul 4, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *Thanks for the spells, VVrayven and Alzrius, I'll look over them presently. Try not to infight too much - if we tackle each spell level as a group, proposing a set of our own or those already posted when they come to us, the yask will be much easier.*




I promise nothing (j/k). Seriously though, we wouldn't want to yackle hard yasks alone. 



> *Oh, and why you'd want to be a Mistress, Alzrius, I can only speculate. There are plenty of titles to go around - Master of Spells would be more fitting, I guess. Bags on Grand Vizier of spells! *




The presumption was that the title changes according to the gender of whoever holds it.  I don't mind the current title you've affixed me with though, so it's all good.



> *Arousal: Good, functional spell. I would propose 'arousing hands' (below) as a possible alternative.*




I'm not sure what you're pointing us towards with the "(below)" notation there. 



> *Detect Disease: Good, useful and balanced. Keep! Possibly a 1st level spell - what do the rest of you think?*




I agree with bumping it up a level due to the fact that it tells you exactly what type of disease it is with an Int check. I also propose that the whole "Int check" part be removed, making only a Heal check; someone who had never studied diseases before shouldn't be able to adequately make a check to determine the type of disease.



> *Detect Pregnancy: May give too much detail for a 0th-level; I would allow a Heal check in addition to Wisdom. I concur with Alzrius's comments. Add adept.*




I concur that for a "mere" detection spell, this one is too forthcoming at its level. Learning the date of birth, stage of pregnancy, and even the child's gender is a bit too much. Make it 1st level. I'm unsure about making the Wis check a Heal check though...you don't need to be too trained in midwifery to understand how long ago the child was conceived, or what sex it is, for example.



> *Detect Romantic Interest: Too subjective (hidden love?), and too powerful in some campaigns for 0th level. What happens if there are multiple interests?*




Presumably it would detect all the interests a target had. I concur with your comments here though.



> *Embarrassing Wilting: Remove duration, state that he goes into Recovery instead. Add adept.*




I disagree here. Removing the duration and saying he goes into recovery simply means that he's going to have a harder time getting it up...a male can become erect when in Recovery, its just harder. That's not the point of this spell; it's supposed to be that no matter what his arousal state is, he remains flaccid. Keep the duration.



> *Prevent Nausea: Quite good, but possibly of too much of a niche application. Clerics would be unlikely to prepare it (due to short duration).*




The obvious application here is that this spell is meant to be a guard against morning sickness in pregnant females. For what its worth, "Nauseated" is a status condition that D&D characters can suffer from...



> Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move (or move-equivalent action) per turn.




...that said, I recommend changing the duration to 1 hour/level. Since the spell not only cures current nausea, but assures the target will not suffer from it in the future, the name might better be "Protection From Nausea".



> *Sex Toy: Consider changing title. Replace 'total bonus of +4' with 'Charisma of 14 (+2 bonus)' and 'no skills'. Remove 'unable to perform...'. Alzrius's comments are valid here. Consider making it a first level spell, with a 'Charisma bonus equal to caster level (maximum +5)' but no skills, feats, etc. Should not have the ability to make conversation (but can groan) or do anything but sexual activities. You could call it a fragment of the caster's libido given form.*




I recommend re-naming it "Real Doll", an in-gag based on the web-company that produces the sex-dolls of the same name. The rest of the critique here is good, though I think that "caster's Cha bonus up to +5" is better than a flat Cha of 14 for the construct.



> *Tweak: Remove necessity of seeing anatomy - implies it could only be used when target is indecently exposed. Add clause of 'blushing likely'. Concentration check would be DC 10 + spell level.*




Trust me about the Concentration check. Check out the Skills section of the SRD. Tweak is a non-damaging spell, which means the DC for the Concentration check is calculated differently from damaging spells such as Fireball.



> *Voyeur's Sight: Maybe too niche? Possibly add that it cannot pierce illusions, but offers a +10 enhancement bonus to Spot checks made to realise a person is Disguised.*




It's less niche than Pillow Talk, since its almost stereotypical that some horny wizard-wannabe learns a spell to look at women naked. The rationale for the bonus to realize someone is disguised is good, but +10 is much to high for a cantrip, IMHO.



> *Wet Dream: A bit pointless. I'd either give it a game effect and add spell levels, or drop.*




Perhaps something along the lines of the dream being so intense that for the next day, any Prowess check made to bring the target creature to Aroused has a +2 bonus?



> *Byrning loins: Unsure when it would be used. Neat name, though.*




The rationale behind it's use is that, at this level of magic, its as close as a caster can come to magically interrupting the sexual endeavors of someone he doesn't like. Hence why its considered a curse. While that may seem somewhat even less useful than, say, Embarrassing Wilting, this one also works on females.



> *Premature orgasm: I'd say it were too powerful. Detecting and dispelling isn't too easy, and the opportunity to automatically screw up a character's next sexual act lies above 1st level. Jump up the spell level, and make it permanent (D), requiring a Fort save every time the character becomes Aroused to avoid premature orgasm. Add adept.*




The manner in which I'd envisioned the "detect and dispel" part is that this is a spell-effect that a character has on them that has not yet activated, a la a Contingency.

I can see this one being bumped up to having a permanent duration though...my initial vision for this one was that having it only "go off" once would be enough to ruin the sexual encounter (assuming it was a young man that this was cast on), but having it be permanent might be better. If so, it might want to also be considered a curse.



> *Raging Lust: Interesting. Good idea, but the effect and spell text could do with reworking.*




"Raging Desire". I realized about halfway through writing the description that I hadn't thought this one out enough. The gist of what I wanted was that this spell causes sexual arousal in a creature when they're in a fight, and thus suffers the penalties of that (since the GUCK has that acting as a penalty to any non-sexual rolls). The part about the DSM bonus was when I realized the flip-side...it would make creatures associate battle with sex, but that would also mean they associate sex with battle. I'll try and rework this one.



> *Unattainable orgasm: Perhaps make it mirror premature orgasm, and state that they dispel each other.*




That would probably work...though I find it mildly odd/amusing that both of these are negative effects, but when casting both on some poor target, it leaves him better off than if just one had been cast on him.



> _Originally posted by VVrayven_
> *Just one quick question, how does the offical text for adding adept list list look, Just Adept 0?*




I'm relatively confident (but not 100% certain) that when listing the Adept NPC class in a spell's "Level" line, you abbreviate it to "Adp". It's always three letters, and that seems to fit what I recall.


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## Liquid Snake (Jul 4, 2003)

_Detect romantic interest_ is not a Divination spell, it's an Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Language-Dependent] spell. The spell doesn't reveal the information, the subject does compelled by the spell. Consequentially, the name should be changed, because _detect_ spells are always divinations.

I dunno...I've seen other _detect disease_ spells (BoEM III) and they're all cantrips, not 1st level spells.

I *definitely* think Sorcerers and Wizards should get _Contraception_. Don't spoil the fun for them. 

EDIT: Spelling


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 5, 2003)

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *
> Loren Pechtel: PIG needs some work. I'll edit it and see what works. Good ideas though.*




         Yeah--I've been batting it around for a while and never really been happy with it.

         The idea is if the guy is going to act like a pig--make him one.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 5, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *
> Spells from Loren:
> Greater sex toy: Very iffy. The clause of failing to do any non-sexual checks is an awkward way of doing things, and the spell is a obtuse way of achieving the effect. We should cap prowess bonuses to level, +5 per spell level (like with healing spells).*




        I was trying to restrict it so it only is useful for sexual purposes.  See the gripe about the sex toy spell--it's got plenty of non-sexual uses that are too powerful for a level 0.  The idea is to get a specific creature instead of just a generic one, and a bit better than the base spell.  It should be a level above Sex Toy.



> *Pig: Hmmm.... okay, but PCs would be irritated if they could be polymorphed by touchy (not intended) 3rd-level spellcasters. Reverse: 'Prig'. *




        No--you can only cast it if you are being touched inappropriately--it affects the person touching you.  Grope a third level spellcaster and you might find yourself going oink.  I figure female spellcasters are going to come up with something effective to go with such pests.


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## Alzrius (Jul 5, 2003)

Liquid Snake said:
			
		

> *Detect romantic interest is not a Divination spell, it's an Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Language-Dependent] spell. The spell doesn't reveal the information, the subject does compelled by the spell. Consequentially, the name should be changed, because detect spells are always divinations.*




Incorrect. Nothing in the spell description actually says that it forces the target creature to verbally tell you whom their romantic interest is. The way I understood it, the spell detects their romantic interest, and the identity of the subject; it peers into the creature's mind. The target creature gains a Will save to avoid having the information read from their mind, not to avoid speaking. It is definately a Divination spell.



> *I dunno...I've seen other detect disease spells (BoEM III) and they're all cantrips, not 1st level spells.*




Did they allow you do identify exactly what the disease was? That was my big sticking point.



> *I definitely think Sorcerers and Wizards should get Contraception. Don't spoil the fun for them.  *




This one I sort of agree with.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 6, 2003)

*Those who can, trip.*

Looking back on everyone’s comments, I thought I’d compile a list of the cantrips I feel warrant inclusion. Some of the spells (such as detect disease and pregnancy) do not appear because I consider them in their current incarnations to be of higher level. Others (such as divine romantic interest or wet dream) are absent because I think they need revising. Some come from the blue, and others have been distorted beyond all recognition. Regardless of how mutilated your contributions have become, I thank each of you for contributing your ideas to the hotpot.

I won’t offer detailed justification for the spells below, but I feel that cantrips should be ‘useful, in a kind of useless way’. People should want them around, but won’t rely on them or use them for big impact – they basically allow spellcasters some room to show off. I have prioritised those spells that fit with 3e mechanics, and those that are mildly humorous, if only for a pun’d name.

Have a look through and voice your suggestions and concerns.

Oh, and some descriptors:
[Arousal] – Induces physical Arousal. Creatures that cannot be Aroused (Constructs, Elementals, Oozes, Plants, Undead, Vermin, some Aberrations and Outsiders) are immune to [Arousal] effects.
[Libido-Affecting] – Modifies a subject’s sexual alignment or kinks, else induces mental Horniness. A spell with the [Libido-Affecting] descriptor is considered to also be [Mind-Affecting]. Creatures immune to mind-influencing effects and those that do not have a sexual alignment are immune to [Libido-Affecting] effects.

0th LEVEL SPELLS (CANTRIPS/ORISONS)
Arousing Hands
Comeliness
Disrupt Conception
Flavour
Frigid Touch
Mage Backhand
Mage Fingers
Repulsiveness 

Arousing Hands
Transmutation [Arousal]
Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Your hands are enveloped in crackling motes of energy, inducing arousal with a touch. With a successful melee touch attack, the target of the spell becomes Aroused unless they pass a Fortitude save; this effect dissipates naturally.
Arousing hands counters and dispels frigid touch.

Comeliness
Illusion (Glamer)
Brd 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will disbelief (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or No (see text)

You soften or enhance the subject’s features, giving them a +1 enhancement bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform and Prowess checks. Creatures that touch the subject receive a Will save to realise the beauty is illusory – if they succeed, the enhancement bonus to interaction with that creature is negated.
Comeliness counters and dispels repulsiveness.
Material Component: A bit of powdered rouge.

By popular demand... (bah)
Disrupt Conception
Necromancy
Adp 0, Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0 (although they should all be 1, really)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Touch
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You hamper the subject’s capacity to create life. The DCs of any conception rolls made by the subject are increased by 1 per level, up to a maximum of five. This spell has no effect on creatures that breed asexually (such as Varguoilles).

Flavour
Transmutation
Brd 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The subject’s bodily fluids gain a sweet smell and candylike flavour. Anyone using an Oral proficiency on the character receives a +1 circumstance bonus on their Prowess checks.
Arcane Material Component: A small beeswax candle or a daub of honey.

Frigid Touch
Necromancy
Level: Clr 0, Drd 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Your hands exude a dull grey nimbus, snuffing out arousal with a touch. With a successful melee touch attack, the target of the spell loses all physical arousal unless they pass a Fortitude save; they may become Aroused again normally.
Frigid touch counters and dispels arousing hands.

Mage Backhand
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
With a word, your target receives a vicious backhand slap of magical energy. You inflict one point of subdual damage, forcing spellcasters to make a Concentration check (DC 11 + spell level) to successfully cast a spell, and leave a stinging red mark.

Mage Fingers
Evocation [Force]
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close
Effect: An invisible magical hand
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: 1 round
Spell Resistance: Yes
An invisible replica of your hand appears at a point you designate within the spell’s range. The hand of force mirrors your own actions, allowing you to exert pressure as you desire provided it does not exceed 1lb. The hand is too frail to use tools effectively.
You may use this effect to playfully tweak, goose or pinch a part of a subject’s anatomy; if the subject is a spellcaster, for the duration of this spell they must succeed at a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level) to cast a spell.

Repulsiveness
Illusion (Glamer)
Brd 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will disbelief (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or No (see text)

You blight the subject’s skin and bloat their features, giving them a -1 enhancement penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform and Prowess checks. Creatures that touch the subject receive a Will save to realise the effect is illusory – if they succeed, the enhancement penalty to interaction with that creature is removed.
Repulsiveness counters and dispels comeliness.
Material Component: A bit of lard.

Cheers,

DbS


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## VVrayven (Jul 6, 2003)

Again DbS, you astound me with your grace and ability to merge ideas together. I'll pick up all the revisions and add yours in to the running spells document. I'll tidy it all up and post the revised list of 0th level as soon as disscussion has ended, which it almost has. I'll post the 1st level list and my additions to it this week and we can begin the heckling all over again, unless of course you would like to pause and finished pregnacy first.  Just let me know. The compiled list will be done pretty soon.

::hugs to all::


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## Alzrius (Jul 6, 2003)

*Re: Those who can, trip.*



			
				Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *Looking back on everyone’s comments, I thought I’d compile a list of the cantrips I feel warrant inclusion.*




Only eight out of eighteen proposed. Here's hoping most of those others make it!



> *Oh, and some descriptors:
> [Arousal] – Induces physical Arousal. Creatures that cannot be Aroused (Constructs, Elementals, Oozes, Plants, Undead, Vermin, some Aberrations and Outsiders) are immune to [Arousal] effects.
> [Libido-Affecting] – Modifies a subject’s sexual alignment or kinks, else induces mental Horniness. A spell with the [Libido-Affecting] descriptor is considered to also be [Mind-Affecting]. Creatures immune to mind-influencing effects and those that do not have a sexual alignment are immune to [Libido-Affecting] effects.*




Maybe its just me, but I don't see a strong need for these descriptors at all. A spell that induces physical arousal isn't something I think needs its own descriptor, since we lay out elsewhere the levels of physical arousal and what they entail. If the spell does cause physical arousal, there really won't be any way to not say that in the description anyway. I could maybe see this descriptor, but it still seems kinda iffy to me.

The second one, Libido-Affecting, I really think is superfluous. There is no reason for this to not be just the Mind-Affecting descriptor. The only instance where this would apply where Mind-Affecting wouldn't is where a creature has a mind but no sexual alignment...something that hasn't been fleshed out at all yet.



> *Arousing Hands
> Transmutation [Arousal]
> Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V, S
> ...




"Frigid Touch" should have the first letter of each word capitalized (yeah I'm nitpicking...someone has to do it).



> *Comeliness
> Illusion (Glamer)
> Brd 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V, S, M
> ...




Spell name capitalization again.



> *Flavour*




Ah, you reveal a British heritage, eh DbS? As far as I know, there is no "u" in "flavor" the way most people spell it.



> *Frigid Touch
> Necromancy
> Level: Clr 0, Drd 0
> Components: V, S
> ...




Capitalization of spell names again.



> *Mage Backhand
> Evocation [Force]
> Level: Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V
> ...




I'm going to be honest and say I liked the name "Slap" better, though "Mage Slap" would be fine (though it sounds like a class-specific variant of the bitch slap). Simply put, slapping is more stereotypical; people who make sexual advances that get rejected tend to get slapped, not backhanded.



> *Mage Fingers
> Evocation [Force]
> Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V, S
> ...




I wonder if "Magic Fingers" wouldn't be a better name...



> *Repulsiveness
> Illusion (Glamer)
> Brd 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
> Components: V, S, M
> ...




Spell name capitalization again.

All in all though, I think this looks pretty nice.


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## Sorn (Jul 7, 2003)

Nice job on the spells everybody. I am not going to comment on each and every spell here, but just one quick thing... Adept is an NPC class. While it is definitely fitting for them to have some of these spells, let's not clutter the spell list up any more than necessary. I have yet to see any spells in the PHB (or any other d20 sourcebook) that have Adept listed anywhere. Adding a revised Adept spell list in an appendix is fine, but that's minor details that can be hashed out later. 

Also, not to rain on anyone's parade here... Again, excellent job on the spells, but let's get the whole pregnancy thing done before we get completely lost in spells. I know spells are a lot more fun, but if we go through all the spells and something in the pregancy section necessitates spell changes, we are going to have to start over. 

I've been with this project a long time, and I've seen this happen more than once. We have a time-line, so let's stick to it. 

DbS, would you kindly post the most up-to-date version of the pregnancy rules you have? I am not sure the version on the website is the latest one. Once we are done with that, spells, spells and more spells. 

_Disclaimer: The above is not meant as an insult or a slight to anyone's contributions. I very much enjoy what all of you have come up with and everybody's comments are welcome. I am simply worried that we will become completely side-tracked by spells._


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 7, 2003)

Well said, Sorn, and damn you for making the post I had prepared irrelevant. 

Oh, and regarding your comments Alzrius:
• Arousal and Libido-Affecting are included as descriptors as I thought certain spells and items would offer bonuses specifically to resisting them. If this is peripheral, they may be removed with little ado.
• English spelling looks better.
• ‘Mage Backhand’ and ‘Mage Fingers’ were designed as puns on ‘Mage Hand’. I agree, though, that ‘Mage Backhand’ is too long-winded. ‘Mage Slap’ is a worthy substitute.
• Yes, only eight of eighteen. Considering those that needed adjustment, those balanced above 1st level, and those that have been merged I don’t think it’s too bad a turnout. I would like to declare now that ideas for spells are just that, and whilst it would be nice to have every concept catered for, it is simply not practical. Besides, we’re theoretically editing, and condensing material is part of the job. If people would like to see spells I’ve left out featured, say so.
• Thanks for the nitpicking. It's not a glamorous job, but it's necessary.

I’ve been working on compiling the rules modifications and additions we’ve made over the last month or so, with some success. When the ‘Adult: GUCK development forum IV’ topic is posted, a copy of the GUCK Full Mechanics (v2.0) will be posted with it. It includes the soft focus rules, sexual alignment, kinks, conception, and interbreeding rules, besides a whole host of rewordings, clarifications and spelling corrections too numerous to count.

Ideally, the pregnancy and childbirth rules would also make an appearance, but the board seems to have got distracted, and I along with them. Congratulations to Sorn for getting us back on track. Whilst it is tempting to skip dreary mechanics discussions and go on to brainstorming clever spells, the rules vacuum must be addressed, and the board must pull together to that end.

I’ve come up with some provisional rules, the ones seen on the site, but they are somewhat sketchy and I would very much like to see everyone else’s ideas. If you could post whatever you can come up with, the section should be complete in no time.

Cheers,

DbS


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## Alzrius (Jul 7, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *I’ve come up with some provisional rules, the ones seen on the site, but they are somewhat sketchy and I would very much like to see everyone else’s ideas. If you could post whatever you can come up with, the section should be complete in no time. *




Some of my initial reactions to Chapter 5's Pregnancy & Childbirth sections:

Ditch the monthly check. It doesn't seem to fit well for a plethora of reasons. For one, the amount of modifiers to be calculated is unwieldy. It also doesn't seem to address that a woman could have plenty of sex with multiple people in a month, which means things like Paternal Modifiers become somewhat complex, since you have to add in all the modifiers for all the males she's slept with over a month. Likewise, there is no way in that system to track which male is then the father of the child. It would also make little sense that a woman could, under this system, sleep with someone and not be pregnant from it until a month later.

The conception threat roll method is, IMHO, much better. It will require us to go through the monster section and list out the fertility of the creatures there, but that's acceptable.

Under the actual pregnancy section, the first thing that leapt out at me is that you don't say what kind of check is made against Weakness, Awkwardness, and Exhaustion (though its assumed they're Fort saves).

The notation in red there is right in that that way of measuring things will be very hard on commoners. It is, however, incorrect about the Con loss killing her through negative hit points alone, since Con drain won't reduce your hp below 1 hp/hit die. However, that said, it will almost certainly make surviving the birthing damn hard, since commoners will have a very low Con by then. Even if giving birth just deals damage, that alone will kill a lot of them.

I recommend that these checks only be made during the beginning of the first, third, fifth, seventh, and ninth stages. The rationale here is that I think the system presented for pregnancy is, in and of itself, a good one, but it is a bit too heavy. This way, halving it (almost), will give commoners an easier time surviving it, but will still make it not too uncommon that women die in childbirth.

I'm also thinking that the Weakness part of the checks should be abandoned, since, AFAIK, women may become less graceful and more tired while lugging around a heavy child in their womb, but nothing says they lose physical strength (as opposed to constitution).

I'd also suggest a section about how, during pregnancy, every hour after waking the pregnant female is Nauseated for one hour afterwards.


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## Sorn (Jul 7, 2003)

Very good points Alzrius, and thanks for the correction on the Con/HP issue.

I agree on removing Weakness. 

IMO, the Awkward factor would be easier replicated with an Armor Check penalty, as that covers all the things. Having that at a fixed rate would be good, maybe on alternate stages of pregnancy. E.g. 3rd stage you check for Exhaustion, at the 4th stage you become awkward, etc.

I'd also suggest removing the first stage checks, as there's not much showing yet that would impede actions. 

Nausea is a good idea, but we should allow a save for it. Somehow I remember that it only happens in certain stages, but since I am a guy, and my wife has never been pregnant, I am not 100% positive on that. Anyone who has any knowledge about that or has gone through pregnancy, please chime up.


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## Alzrius (Jul 7, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *Very good points Alzrius, and thanks for the correction on the Con/HP issue.*




No problem. 



> *IMO, the Awkward factor would be easier replicated with an Armor Check penalty, as that covers all the things.*




I'm not so sure about this. For one thing, it simply sounds odd to have an armor check penalty when the woman isn't wearing armor. This also brings up questions about do the penalties stack when she is wearing armor (maternity armor )? Likewise, from what I've seen, amor check penalties only hurt skill checks...nothing else:



> _Originally posted in the Equipment section of the SRD_
> *Armor Check Penalty: Anything heavier than leather hurts the ability to use some skills.*




Being pregnant should provide a penalty to everything Dex-related, IMHO. It should make it harder to move that you take a Dex penalty to armor, that you have a harder time making reflex saves, and even straight Dex checks, etc, not just skills.



> *I'd also suggest removing the first stage checks, as there's not much showing yet that would impede actions.*




That could work...or it could be 2nd/4th/6th/8th periods of pregnancy maybe?



> *Nausea is a good idea, but we should allow a save for it.*




I'd postulate it can't be saved against, but for the most part I claim ignorance here too.


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## Sorn (Jul 7, 2003)

Ok, I see your point on the Armor Check Penalty idea. It could have been called Pregnancy Check Penalty, but that's besides the point. However, instead of Dex damage, how about an increasing penalty to everything Dex related like skills, saves, ranged attacks, etc. 

Certain skills should not be penalized though. I don't see how a big belly would affect someone opening a lock or palming a coin. Just my 2c. 

On to the other stuff...

Exhaustion: At Stage 3 and every other Stage thereafter, the mother has to succeed at a Fortitude Save DC 10+Stage or suffer 1 point of Constitution damage. This damage is temporary, but will not return until after the pregnancy is over. 

Awkwardness: Starting at Stage 4 and every (other?) stage thereafter, the mother has to succeed at a Fortitude Save DC 10+Stage or suffer a penalty to all Dex-based activities that involve movement (Tumble, reflex saves, AC, etc.) Fine-motor skills like Sleight of Hand, Open Locks or Disable Device are generally not affected (DM's discretion applies.)

Nausea: I'd still say that a save should be allowed. I've heard people talk about it a little, and not everybody gets morning sickness, and the severity varies between those who do get it. Sounds like a save to me. I'll see if I can find any information on that.

So, except for Labor and Childbirth, we are doing pretty good. Also, the original guide had a long section the interaction of the fetus with spellcasting, planar travel, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Are we going to keep that?

Also, I'd like to point out that as it stands, pregnancy is about the worst thing that could happen to an adventurer mechanics-wise. There should be some good side-effects as well. Maybe a bonus to Cha skills, as the mother-to-be is "glowing".


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## Sorn (Jul 7, 2003)

Ok, did a quick bit of research on morning sickness. It was amazingly easy to find info on that. Here's what I found:

_How common is it?
About 10-20% of women have no nausea or vomiting, 28-30% have nausea only, and 52-56% experience some vomiting. Some researches say morning sickness can be a sign of a healthy pregnancy.

When does it start?
Some women experience symptoms within days of conception, but the average time from the last menstrual period to the onset of nausea is about 5-1/2 weeks.

When does it end?
About 60% of women will be over their nausea by the 12th week from the last menstrual period, and more than 90% are feeling better by the 16th week. A few unlucky women do have nausea throughout the pregnancy, and a few have nausea return in the final weeks of the pregnancy.

_


So, here's my proposal for Fort Save DC's to avoid morning sickness:

Stage I: Fort Save DC 5
Stage II: Fort Save DC 20
Stage III: Fort Save DC 15
Stage IV: Fort Save DC 10
Stage V-VIII: Fort Save DC 5
Stage IX: Fort Save DC 10

This simulates the varying degrees of morning sickness nicely. Since this is just a quick and dirty version, we can adjust the numbers for a better fit.

Edit: Just thought of an addition to the conception rules... age plays a factor with conception, so here are some Conception DC modifiers:

Female:
Middle Age +1
Old +2
Venerable +4

Male:
Old +1
Venerable +2


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## asra (Jul 7, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *Also, I'd like to point out that as it stands, pregnancy is about the worst thing that could happen to an adventurer mechanics-wise. There should be some good side-effects as well. Maybe a bonus to Cha skills, as the mother-to-be is "glowing". *




I think "dead" is about the worst thing that could happen to an adventurer (mechanic-wise or other-wise).   

With all due respect, while pregency is (if wanted) among the most important events, it's effects are  disasterous to the adventuring woman. I don't think that there "must be" a good "mechnic-wise" to that - altough in many societies there will be social consequnaces (good or bad - depeneding on the social norms and the social standing of the mother-to-be).

In adventuring terms - this IS a sign that a shift in occupation (at least temporary) might be wise (in social campagin, on the other side, the character could probably still do quite a lot...)


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## Sorn (Jul 7, 2003)

> I think "dead" is about the worst thing that could happen to an adventurer (mechanic-wise or other-wise).




Well, yeah. Death does not only end the career, but also everything else. So, barring death, pregnancy could grind a campaign to a halt. So, while the mother's physical prowess is hampered, I don't see anything wrong with adding a few positive modifiers to some social skills to help her out. Of course those don't apply to every possible situation. The orc chieftain or the pissed-off dragon probably care less about whether the adventurer is pregnant or not. However, most civilized cultures will react positively. I am not talking huge modifiers, but something in the +2 to +4 range (DM's discretion applies) sounds about right.


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## Alzrius (Jul 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sorn_
> *Ok, I see your point on the Armor Check Penalty idea. It could have been called Pregnancy Check Penalty, but that's besides the point. However, instead of Dex damage, how about an increasing penalty to everything Dex related like skills, saves, ranged attacks, etc.
> 
> Certain skills should not be penalized though. I don't see how a big belly would affect someone opening a lock or palming a coin. Just my 2c.*




I think that this may be slicing it a bit thin. How easy is it to open a delicate lock without setting off a trap if you suddenly have something kicking you from the inside? Likewise, is the person you're stealing a coin from less likely to notice the pregnant woman brushing by him, or more?



> *Awkwardness: Starting at Stage 4 and every (other?) stage thereafter, the mother has to succeed at a Fortitude Save DC 10+Stage or suffer a penalty to all Dex-based activities that involve movement (Tumble, reflex saves, AC, etc.) Fine-motor skills like Sleight of Hand, Open Locks or Disable Device are generally not affected (DM's discretion applies.)*




How much of a modifier? Is it cumulative with itself? And movement is so subjective, enough so that its open to abuse...is a female character taking the total defense option really moving if she's just defending herself? Stuff like that...its so much easier to keep it a Dex drain.



> *Also, the original guide had a long section the interaction of the fetus with spellcasting, planar travel, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Are we going to keep that?*




My initial reaction is to say yes; that section was cool, if a bit complex. Assuming we can trim it down, it would be something pretty nice to have in the GUCK.



> *So, here's my proposal for Fort Save DC's to avoid morning sickness:*




These look pretty good. This is something checked for daily, right?



> *Just thought of an addition to the conception rules... age plays a factor with conception, so here are some Conception DC modifiers:
> 
> Female:
> Middle Age +1
> ...




The idea is good here, but it seems a bit too specific. I propose instead that we make a section elsewhere that just talks about generic Prowess (and other sex-related penalties) based on age. It's something of a staple that old people have a harder time of doing it (guys and getting it up, for instance).



> _Originally posted by asra_
> *With all due respect, while pregency is (if wanted) among the most important events, it's effects are disasterous to the adventuring woman. I don't think that there "must be" a good "mechnic-wise" to that - altough in many societies there will be social consequnaces (good or bad - depeneding on the social norms and the social standing of the mother-to-be).
> 
> In adventuring terms - this IS a sign that a shift in occupation (at least temporary) might be wise (in social campagin, on the other side, the character could probably still do quite a lot...)*






> _Originally posted by Sorn_
> *while the mother's physical prowess is hampered, I don't see anything wrong with adding a few positive modifiers to some social skills to help her out. Of course those don't apply to every possible situation. The orc chieftain or the pissed-off dragon probably care less about whether the adventurer is pregnant or not. However, most civilized cultures will react positively.*




Sorry Sorn, I agree with Asra here. The idea of adding in a "positive" mechanic for the sole purpose of merely balancing out the negative ones just doesn't seem right to me.

Not all civilized cultures will react positively to a pregnant woman. Perhaps she isn't married...then her being pregnant can be a horrible social stigma. Perhaps its a warrior culture, and while valuable, a pregnant woman is one who can't fight, and feels mildly ashamed about that, no "glowing" then. Hell, she might not even want the baby...it shouldn't offer Cha bonuses then.

Bonuses to things should be offered where the situation warrants it, not because it seems like some should be given just to balance something else out. Being pregnant probably is the worst thing that can happen to a woman who makes her career adventuring, so the mechanics should reflect that objectively.


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## Sorn (Jul 8, 2003)

Ok, on the awkwardness thing, I can see both sides working... so I'll wait on some more comments. 

The Magic & Pregnancy section was one of my favorites too, and I agree it was a little long, so let's trim that baby down. No pun intended.

Morning Sickness: Yes, checked daily upon waking up. Fort Save or nauseated for 1d3 hours. 


Age & Conception


> The idea is good here, but it seems a bit too specific. I propose instead that we make a section elsewhere that just talks about generic Prowess (and other sex-related penalties) based on age. It's something of a staple that old people have a harder time of doing it (guys and getting it up, for instance).




Good idea on the general notes. However, I am talking fertility here, not  ED. Most people can skip these modifiers right away, as the majority of  characters are younger than that anyway. All these modifiers do is simulate menopause and the drop in virility in older men. It won't take much room or complicate the conception roll. 



> Sorry Sorn, I agree with Asra here. The idea of adding in a "positive" mechanic for the sole purpose of merely balancing out the negative ones just doesn't seem right to me.




Okay, I guess we had a little miscommunication somewhere. I don't want any positive mods for balance purposes. So far, all we had been focusing on were the negative aspects, but we were forgetting about the positive ones (which are indeed less universal and more subject to DM's discretion). 

And I agree with you on the other parts... it really depends on the culture the pregnant woman is in and a gazillion other circumstances. But we should mention the possibility of positive mods. Again, not to balance the negative ones,  but to have a complete and comprehensive chapter on pregnancy.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 8, 2003)

Just a quick idea: perhaps a maximum Dexterity bonus would be more in order to represent encumbrance, again armour-style? It would range from quite high at the upper stages to -1 or suchlike in the last stage.

I think the importance here is simplicity. Looking back on things, I'd favour dropping the whole monthly check thing entirely. Morning sickness is not too debilitating, so we won't include extensive rules for it. Awkwardness is best represented by a staggered maximum Dexterity bonus, and perhaps an increasing drop in overland speed or inability to run. Constitution drain is a little excessive, so just have some chance of miscarraige whenever the character undergoes massive damage, or something.

It's just a vague sentiment, but feel free to fill in the details if you like it.

DbS


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## Sorn (Jul 8, 2003)

Actually, I like the Max Dex idea a lot. I just uploaded my latest proposal for Pregnancy mechanics to the site, but I will adjust the table for Dex and landspeed. Expect it within 10-15 minutes on the site.

Edit: File Uploaded. I am not going to repost it here, as there are 2 tables in there. Just check it out here


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## brevdravis (Jul 8, 2003)

*Off-topic.... sorry*

Just a quick one, you guys are doing so good on the pregnancy rules that I worry about tossing in comments that disrupt the flow......

VVrayven was talking about starting a group to do the HEX expansion after the base mechanics were finished.  I think that they're pretty much done, the basics, I mean, sooo

Is that starting up yet, or am I jumping the gun here again....

Stuart


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## brevdravis (Jul 8, 2003)

*Miscarriage rules....*

I remember that in the old rules there was a big thing about the effects of adventuring opn a child, and a huge table listing the various effects with a lot of various things....

I think that's overkill personally.....

How bout something really simple, like a 1% cumulative chance, that goes down 1% every day, for every point of damage taken, real or subdual.  It's simple and easy to keep track of.

Unless spells specifically mention effects on unborn children, there shouldn't be anything major.  Just have the same effect that affects the mother affect the child....

(Yes, I realize this brings up things like haste spells, but I think that we should leave that up to the GM.)

Stuart


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## Sorn (Jul 8, 2003)

My thoughts... for most purposes, mother and unborn child are a single entity. We don't have stats for the unborn child, so it's all dependant on the mother. Any spell affecting her automatically affects the child. Easy as that. Weird side-effects are nice and fine, but probably not what we really want.

Miscarriages induced by damage should require a Fortitude Save. Right now, I am thinking a modified Massive Damage system. Once the mother takes 20 or more points of damage in a single hit, make a Fort Save DC15. However, the problem I see already with that is that low-level mothers will never have miscarriages, as they will be long dead once they take 20 points of damage. 

Instead, how about make a Fort Save DC = Damage taken - Stage #?


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 9, 2003)

Hey!  What's up with fertility modifiers for post-menopausal women?  Their fertility is *ZERO*!


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## VVrayven (Jul 9, 2003)

Just my thoughts:

Morning Sickness should not have a solid dehabilitating mechanic. After all, these adventuring women can take getting stabbed by a two foot sword and have no penalties to attack, yet a morning sickness troubles them? I realize this is a thin argument, but I think we should try to keep things as simple as possible.

I like the reduced speed and reduced dex ideas. Con drain makes no sense at all. The women's body is burning energy at a higher rate, however, her immune systems and other "CON" like systems are functioning at a hyper-active pace, not a reduced one.

I think Sorn is right about treating mother and child as one entity.

Loren Pechtel: You are very right.   Women CANNOT have children post menopause.

Hex: I'm starting on it in about one week.

Sorry all about the spells. I'm quietly editing the rest of them now and will post them in the timeline. You can consider me suffciently chasitised and spanked. 

::hugs to all::


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## Sorn (Jul 9, 2003)

I took Morning Sickness off the site. So no worries there anymore. Same goes for Con drain. 

Now, the menopause thing. The reason that there are modifiers is that there are always a few exceptions to the rule, namely women who give birth at an old age where most other women are way past the ability to become pregnant. Note that a MW contraceptive only gives a +2, which in turn leads to a vastly decreased chance of conception. The age modifiers are higher than that (and I am even considering bumping them up even more). 

Since we have no rules for menopause, high DC modifiers will make sure that only very few women will become pregnant when they are older. 



> You can consider me suffciently chasitised and spanked.




Hmmm... spankings...  
But seriously, no harm done... we all just got carried away a little. Keep up the great work!! The pregnancy chapter is coming along nicely, so I am definitely looking forward to them.


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## brevdravis (Jul 9, 2003)

*Another idea...*

I like the Fort save idea for miscarriages, however, with the new rules Mary the first level commoner will never have a miscarriage....

How bout we add a clause that states if a woman takes half her hitpoints in one shot (maybe three quarters, I'll see what the response is)  she also has to make a fortitude save.

That covers all the bases, but doesn't change the already great rule....

Stuart


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 9, 2003)

Thanks for the input, everyone. The suggestions posted have all been perfectly valid, making it awfully difficult to post criticisms or alternatives.

Sorn, your pregnancy rules are great - pretty much exactly what I'd have imagined. Likewise, Loren, your point about post-menopausal women is entirely valid (how did that one get through?). I'd suggest removing any modifiers and simply having a paragraph (or sidebar) stating that women in their Prime or Middle Age and men in their Prime, Middle Age or Old life stages are considered fertile.

*considers VVrayven chastised and spanked*





*snaps out of it*

I'm a little concerned about HEx (is that the correct spelling?) starting up so soon... with the full mechanics complete, we still don't have a completed Guide, and I don't want to have to split my attentions (doing so on one guide is difficult enough). If HEx is intended as a supplement to the GUCK, wouldn't it make more sense to complete the GUCK first?

Just a(nother) thought.

DbS


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## Sorn (Jul 9, 2003)

I see where you guys are coming from regarding the menopause issue. However, also remember that we are not just talking humans here. Orcs are very fertile, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if orc women continue to reproduce even at advanced ages. Elves are generally looking like they are about 20 (in human terms) anyway, so their bodies don't really age all that much, which could allow for pregnancies at old age. 

But, I am willing to concede on that one. We can always add a little blurb to the suggested sidebar/paragraph that DM's are free to add any age modifiers if they wish to allow older characters to conceive. Sound like a solution?


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## brevdravis (Jul 9, 2003)

*About the Hex (off-topic)*

I personally can't wait to get started on it.  I don't think it will draw too much attention away from the main, since we're doing different things with it.  

Different forum too if I recall....

While splitting attention can wreck things, It can also help cross-pollinate ideas.  And if the Hex is done concurrently as opposed to consecutively, we might spot some things in the base mechanics that need tweaking too.....

Just my thoughts...

Stuart


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## Sorn (Jul 9, 2003)

*HEx worries*

The HEx might be different enough as to not conflict with the GUCK, I am also a little worried. 

The GUCK core team has dwindled down to a handful of people. Working on two seperate projects will mean that a good number of the already small core team will have to split their attention between the two. If time and attention are split 50-50 between the two, it means that the GUCK could take up to twice as long to finish. 

Right now, we are on a roll and could wrap this thing up sooner rather than later. Plus, we've been at this for a long time. Looking at the timestamp in the preview version of the GUCK, the fall of 2001 is when things started to get serious. I for one am eager to have a finished product. 

This is not meant as a slight to HEx or trying to discourage anyone from doing it. While I am not a big hentai fan anymore, I am certainly looking forward to it.


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## Sorn (Jul 9, 2003)

*Updates Updates Updates*

More updates in the Pregnancy section. Again, instead of reposting everything here, check the site.

-Removed the age modifiers for conception and added a paragraph about fertility. 

-Added revised injury rules and other complications such as death of the mother, disease, poison, magic and shapeshifting. 

To finish up this section, we need to complete the rules for labor and childbirth. I have a basic rules-set on the site, but that it needs a lot of tweaking and polishing.

Furthermore, the 0.5 version of the guide contains a lot of material on the baby. There is general information on stats, etc. as well as mutations and birth defects. Personally, I think that whole section is way too detailed and cumbersome. 

I remember seeing expanded age tables with stat modifiers for children, but I can't recall where. If anybody knows, please let me know. If they are OGC, I'd suggest we just reprint them and let the DM or players generate a new character. All we need then is a something for gender, but a simple high=female/low=male should do the trick fine. 

I am somewhat against including birth defect/mutation tables, as that will only need to balance issues and headaches down the road. Not to mention that the players of pregnant PC's tend to be very protective of their unborn NPC's. Any DM stupid enough to mess with the unborn child is only asking for trouble. 

Besides, this is the Netbook of Sex, and while pregnancy is a part of it, I don't think we need to go overboard on the whole children issue. Opinions?


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## VVrayven (Jul 10, 2003)

::smile:: Relax boys. I'm not going to steal the thunder.  Next week I simply want to start the Yahoo group and start taking members, no submissions yet. That is what I meant by start. Sorry, I should have been a little more specific. We shall complete the GUCK first, I just wanted to get some staff together and start noting things we can look at later. For instance, certain rules that aren't being delved into here, can be later if we have a list. I just want to remember what we said we'd go back to. 

As for the birth defects/mutations... I don't think a small section is out of the question. The old tables did have some.... charm. 

Sorn, the rules look great! <blows a kiss> Absolutely great work everyone.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 10, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *I took Morning Sickness off the site. So no worries there anymore. Same goes for Con drain.
> 
> Now, the menopause thing. The reason that there are modifiers is that there are always a few exceptions to the rule, namely women who give birth at an old age where most other women are way past the ability to become pregnant. Note that a MW contraceptive only gives a +2, which in turn leads to a vastly decreased chance of conception. The age modifiers are higher than that (and I am even considering bumping them up even more).
> 
> Since we have no rules for menopause, high DC modifiers will make sure that only very few women will become pregnant when they are older. *




         We are still facing the same problem--the formula either makes for no failure chance whatsoever (if you consider a 21 to be impossible) or a 1 in 400 chance no matter what (if you consider a 20 to always hit).

         High modifers are *NOT* a solution as the formula breaks down.


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## Alzrius (Jul 10, 2003)

Kuso, take a day off to begin organizing my trip back to the States, and the whole group moves on without me. Shame on all of you!  

My thoughts on what we've discussed thus far:



> _Originally posted by VVrayven_
> *Morning Sickness should not have a solid dehabilitating mechanic. After all, these adventuring women can take getting stabbed by a two foot sword and have no penalties to attack, yet a morning sickness troubles them? I realize this is a thin argument, but I think we should try to keep things as simple as possible.*




I disagree here something. There already is a solid mechanic for morning sickness: its called being Nauseated. That's a status condition as outlined in the SRD. Just say that being morning sick applies that condition. Even the hardiest of adventurers still takes an attack penalty when nauseous. 

In my experience, simplicity of mechanics is good, but something that simplifies too much is unwanted. People like a system that covers the little things. Just so long as how its all handled isnt a big mess, its okay.



> _Originally posted by Sorn_
> *My thoughts... for most purposes, mother and unborn child are a single entity. We don't have stats for the unborn child, so it's all dependant on the mother. Any spell affecting her automatically affects the child. Easy as that. Weird side-effects are nice and fine, but probably not what we really want.*




I disagree somewhat here. The system as you propose it gets the job done, but its boring! The fun of the old system, as large as it was (and it wasn't that unwieldy, since it was basically rolling on a table or two) was that it had so many possibilities. Magic is wild, primal arcane energies. Who knows what effect it could have on a newly-developing embryo? There should be a wide range of effects. That's what people will want (I think).


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## Knight-of-Roses (Jul 10, 2003)

*Re: Updates Updates Updates*



			
				Sorn said:
			
		

> All we need then is a something for gender, but a simple high=female/low=male should do the trick fine.



But it should be noted that this does not apply to all races.  The standard D&D dwarves are usually presented with 3-4 male dwarves to each female.  

I don't know if other races have imbalance in their male/female ratio (do Drow have more females than males?).

And it should be sex not gender, IIRC from my gender studies class, sex is biological, gender is societal.


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## Sorn (Jul 10, 2003)

Ok, from the top down...

VVrayven... Sounds like a plan for the HEx. As far as mutations etc. go, how about a simple table with a few modifiers. Something along the lines of a Fort (?) Save DC ?? with things like "Mother drank alcohol -?" or "Mother was possessed by a spirit -?" or "Mother travelled to another plane -?" and then on failure simply cross-reference to a mutation/defects table. Should be a lot less cumbersome than the old method. I am somewhat opposed to having the mother roll saves every time she does anything.

Loren... I see what you mean, please see the revised paragraph on the site. No more mods for age and conception. 

Alzrius... Morning Sickness can indeed be handled with the Nauseated status condition. However, it is a very nasty status condition, nothing I would want to subject any characters to on a daily basis for several hours. If you look at it, for whatever timeframe we deem morning sickness to last, the mother can only do one thing... take a move action each round, nothing else. So, if we want to keep morning sickness, I propose the following changes: 

1.) reduce the duration to a few minutes instead of 1+ hours as proposed before

2.) to keep people from having to roll morning sickness checks every morning, only one save is allowed at the beginning of each stage. Two successful saves in a row indicates no more morning sickness.

On to Mother-Embryo for spells, etc. See above for werd side effects, but in general, I think we will need to consider the two of them as one entity for several reasons. 

First of, do you really want to keep redoing the fetus' stats at every stage? How many hit points does a Stage IV fetus have? What's the Fort Save? If it can be affected with spells and stuff, it needs stats. 

Secondly, the number of things that can affect the fetus is somewhat limited to begin with, since the fetus has complete cover from the mother's body. Anything that requires Line of Sight is out. Anything mind affecting will spawn a discussion on when the fetus actually develops thoughts of its own. 

Last, anything that inflicts direct damage or ability damage or anything like that will almost certainly kill the fetus. I mean come on, if a healthy adult has about 4 hit points or so, a fetus doesn't have any more than 1. Most ability scores are going to be way below 10, so any ability drain will be fatal. 

Knight-of-Roses... Already noted in the descriptive paragraph on the site. I used the classic dwarven example, and left it to GM discretion. That makes it easier for custom campaigns, plus we don't have to make up data for the other races. Not entirely sure on Drow demographics, but a lot of the males get killed by over-eager priestesses or are sacrificed at birth, so that could explain it (if there is indeed a discrepancy).

And I'll double check the stuff on the site regarding the sex/gender issue. never even thought of that, but english isn't my first language... some of that stuff slips through.


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## Sorn (Jul 10, 2003)

Before I forget it, DbS... you said that once we get the new thread going, you are going to post the 2.0 version of the core mechanics. Are those finished or is there still some tweaking to be done to arrive at that version?

If they are done, could you please email them over so I can post them on the site? 

Also, is that going to be final version? I'd like to start marking off things on the site. Once something is classified as final, I can get started on basic layout to get ready for proofreading.


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## brevdravis (Jul 10, 2003)

*Great!  Just checking...*

Okay, thanks for the update.

I will now shut up until I have something constructive to say...  

Stuart


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## Alzrius (Jul 11, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *Alzrius... Morning Sickness can indeed be handled with the Nauseated status condition. However, it is a very nasty status condition, nothing I would want to subject any characters to on a daily basis for several hours. If you look at it, for whatever timeframe we deem morning sickness to last, the mother can only do one thing... take a move action each round, nothing else.*




I don't think this is so bad. Most mornings won't be spent in combat, and there are spells which should be able to alleviate this (we should have a few in our own spell selection).



> *So, if we want to keep morning sickness, I propose the following changes:
> 
> 1.) reduce the duration to a few minutes instead of 1+ hours as proposed before*




Perhaps a larger die roll for the number of minutes? 2d20 maybe?



> *2.) to keep people from having to roll morning sickness checks every morning, only one save is allowed at the beginning of each stage. Two successful saves in a row indicates no more morning sickness.*




Meaning that its not too uncommon for some pregnant women to experience no morning sickness at all? (they made their first two saves)



> *On to Mother-Embryo for spells, etc. See above for werd side effects, but in general, I think we will need to consider the two of them as one entity for several reasons. *




Okay, a miscommunication occured here. I do not think that the unborn child deserves stats on its own. That's a horrible idea.

What I meant is that certain spells used on/by the pregnant mother have effects that show when the baby is born. For example, a mother that uses/is affected by too many spells with the Evil descriptor may give birth to a child with the Half-Fiendish template, since Evil energies were affecting the gestating child. Things like that.


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## Sorn (Jul 11, 2003)

Nice ideas re: morning sickness.

Spells are definitely one way of handling it, herbal concoctions or straight-up alchemy might be another way. e

2d20 minutes could be a viable solution. Anybody else have any thoughts on this?

Now, the saving throw thing. First off, my research has shown that some women do not experience morning sickness. Secondly, morning sickness will not have static Save DC's. The DC's vary between stages (no save for Stage I, a really high save in Stage II, then peaked until Stage V, and then going down again.).

This means that the majority of women will experience morning sickness up until Stage V. Pregnant adventurers might avoid it altogether due to their high saves, but they are hardly the norm. I have the save progression for morning sickness done already, so I'll put it up for a vote whether to include it or not. 





> Okay, a miscommunication occured here. I do not think that the unborn child deserves stats on its own. That's a horrible idea.




Ok, I see what you mean now, and I couldn't agree more about the fetus stats..




> What I meant is that certain spells used on/by the pregnant mother have effects that show when the baby is born. For example, a mother that uses/is affected by too many spells with the Evil descriptor may give birth to a child with the Half-Fiendish template, since Evil energies were affecting the gestating child. Things like that.




I agree. However, this could turn into a nightmare. There are two options of handling this. 

1.) You make a check of some sort every time the character is using/affected by certain spells. This is the straightforward way of handing things. The problem is that such mutations don't just happen from one exposure, so the chance for an effect on the child has to be somewhat remote. We could do it as a "natural 1" on the saving throw, but that's still a 5% chance everytime someone does something evil to ya. Maybe do a confirmation roll. For example, if a natural 1 is rolled on a save against a spell with the Evil descriptor, make another roll - if that is a natural 1 as well, there's side effects. That makes the whole mutation thing a 1-in-400 chance. 

2.) The book-keeping intensive way. We come up with a nice table with mods for the various things that could happen over the course of pregnancy. Just before childbirth, you tally up and make your rolls. However, this means that both player and GM need to keep very detailed notes on what the character has used/was affected by over the course of up to 18 months. Doesn't really strike me a feasible. 

Thoughts anyone?


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 11, 2003)

Just a filler post - I'll have more for you shortly. Sorn, you requested a child stat variation table, so I'll unabashedly rip one from the DbS conversion and post it here. Basic score for each attribute is the average of the parents', with a 50% chance each to round up or down.

Table X-XX: Attribute Variation
d20 Roll / Variation
1 / -4
2-3 / -2
4-6 / -1
7-14 / 0
15-17 / 1
18-19 / 2
20 / 4

I'll have the full rules for modifying statistics for children posted with my next major post.

Cheers,

DbS

Edit: Oh, and I thought we had agreed to avoid making rules for morning sickness, as it is a transient and relatively ineffectual effect (?). A simple note under pregnancy stating that a person may experience nausea should suffice.


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## Sorn (Jul 11, 2003)

Well, I am not sure I really like the idea of  simply averaging the parents' stats with some small adjustments. While it makes sense from a simplistic genetics viewpoint, it has a few problems. 

Imagine the child of two very average commoners becoming a supermodel with an 18 Cha. Looking at the interim table, the highest the kid could hope for is a Cha of 14. This goes for any child of average people who becomes an adventurer (who generally have exceptional stats that often exceed 14's).

Children of adventurers present another problem. Adventurers have high stats overall, but some of that is stat increase through level-up. IMO, their starting stats are the genetic part, but the level-up (or other increases) are gained through training and experience, and should hence not affect the child's stats. 

Maybe I am just being difficult here... 

Morning Sickness: some people seem to want it, others don't. I am somewhere in the middle, leaning towards the simpler approach. Probably easier to just mention it and leave it at that. I'll make sure to include the information I posted earlier (when, how long, etc.), but leave most rules references out and simply have the GM decide how she wants to handle it.


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## Alzrius (Jul 11, 2003)

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *I thought we had agreed to avoid making rules for morning sickness, as it is a transient and relatively ineffectual effect (?). A simple note under pregnancy stating that a person may experience nausea should suffice. *




I disagree. Just saying that leaves all sorts of problems open...some people will read that nausea as just being flavor text, others will insist that it's the Nauseated status condition, etc. Besides, I agreed to nothing. 

My reasoning for including this remains unchanged: there is a difference between simplifying, and just glossing things over. The mechanics of things should be simple, but that doesn't mean that we should just overlook things that play a factor.



> _Originally posted by Sorn_
> *this could turn into a nightmare. There are two options of handling this.
> 
> 1.) You make a check of some sort every time the character is using/affected by certain spells. This is the straightforward way of handing things. The problem is that such mutations don't just happen from one exposure, so the chance for an effect on the child has to be somewhat remote. We could do it as a "natural 1" on the saving throw, but that's still a 5% chance everytime someone does something evil to ya. Maybe do a confirmation roll. For example, if a natural 1 is rolled on a save against a spell with the Evil descriptor, make another roll - if that is a natural 1 as well, there's side effects. That makes the whole mutation thing a 1-in-400 chance.*




Why not just roll percentile dice? Just because its the d20 system doesn't mean we can't use anything but a d20. One percent per use seems okay - i.e. every time the mother uses and/or is affected by an Evil spell, there is a cumulative 1% chance that the baby is born Half-Fiendish.

Obviously, this is a major simplification of the process, and leaves a lot to still be fleshed out, but that's basically how I see it being handled well.


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## Sorn (Jul 11, 2003)

You made a good case for morning sickness... as I said, it's not all that important to me, so whatever the majority votes will be fine by me. 

Percentile idea sounds good. I'd suggest we limit this to spell descriptors and a few select spells that don't have descriptors but come into play frequently. I want to avoid pages upon pages of tables and references.

Alzrius, feel like coming up with a writeup of that section?


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## Alzrius (Jul 11, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *Percentile idea sounds good. I'd suggest we limit this to spell descriptors and a few select spells that don't have descriptors but come into play frequently. I want to avoid pages upon pages of tables and references.
> 
> Alzrius, feel like coming up with a writeup of that section? *




I'd love to! Though I promise nothing about what I limit myself to.  

Slightly more seriously though, while I would like to do that section, it may be a little while before I can even start. My flight taking me back home (to America, from here in Japan) is in less than 36 hours, and I'm scrambling around trying to get everything together (and yet, somehow, I'm killing time here). Once I arrive, then I get home, reacquaint myself with friends and family, unpack, relax...and then go to GenCon...plus we've been having computer difficulties at home lately...

Yeah, this might take more than a few days to post something here. Sorry, I would do it sooner if I could.  This just isn't a good time for me to begin projects.


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## Sorn (Jul 11, 2003)

> I'd love to! Though I promise nothing about what I limit myself to.




Go right for it. However, bear in mind that even with magic, mutation on that scale should be a fairly rare event. Also don't forget to include effects of Good spells and maybe general Transmutation spells. And if you really feel ambitious, effects of alcohol. 

Since we only have a handful of pages for pregnancy, don't go too overboard either. IMO, if the "mutation" rules are a lot bigger than the current pregnancy chapter, it'll look like bad design. It's like having 20 pages on how spells work, followed by a list of 5 spells. 

As for when it's done... take your time (within reason of course). This is something that can be added to the pregnancy chapter later on. I don't think it'll affect anything else in the GUCK, unless we want to introduce a spell or magic item that prevents/induces a random effect from your section. (e.g. Detect Birth Defect, Protection from Birth Defect, Cure Birth Defect). Those would definitely be very specialized, so there shouldn't be any overarcing compatability issues with other chapters.


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## brevdravis (Jul 11, 2003)

*Regarding the Mutation stuff*

I agree, I think that too much emphasis placed on what can happen during pregnancy will result in too much bookkeeping and such....

I think that there should be a few things that affect fetuses tho, but it should be a fairly small list.

Tentatively:

Spells that SPECIFICALLY affect unborn children.
Level drain below 1st level.
Weird stuff that the GM makes up.

That's about it IMHO...

Stuart


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## Psyckosama (Jul 14, 2003)

Bloody hell! I missed the goddamn discussion on pregnancy.

Still, think the rules set I made up a while ago can be used for soft focus? I kinda was avoiding the hard focuse sex rules because I'd never use them.

As for spells affecting the unborn, maybe have it level dependent. A cantrip light spell would not have neaarly the physical effect on an unborn child as the mother casting say... Wish, or summoning a Balor. 

Back on the old subject of birth control, please, remember not ALL d20 is fantasy d20. I'd just keep the dicriptors atleast somewhat simple and generic so they could be easly ported to diffrent settings?


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## Bastoche (Jul 14, 2003)

BTW, I just saw the example on the webpage and I must say that I am more than pleased with the results of this hard work! Congrats everyone!!!


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## brevdravis (Jul 15, 2003)

Uhm, discussion's kinda petered out here.....

Do we need something written to start the discussion on?  If So, I'm volunteering...

Stuart


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## Sorn (Jul 15, 2003)

Alzrius is working on effects on the unborn, DbS is doing something on stats of the child, so the only thing left is Labor & Delivery. 

I have some preliminary stuff on the site, but it needs a lot of work, and I have hit a wall. Any help with that (or a complete rewrite if my stuff is junk) would be greatly appreciated.


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## brevdravis (Jul 15, 2003)

*Great!*

Cool, I'll take a look at it tonight and hopefully post my changes tomorrow.....

On a related note, when we've finished these rules I'll be happy to do another play by play example....  

Stuart


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## Sorn (Jul 15, 2003)

Thanks a ton. I'll be looking forward to it. Same goes for the play-by-play.


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## brevdravis (Jul 16, 2003)

*need a little more time....*

Sorry I don't have it done today, had to work a little late last night.

I'm using some of your ideas, but need a little time to work out the bugs....

Should have it tomorrow,

Thanks for your patience...

Stuart


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## Azure Trance (Jul 16, 2003)

Quick Question

What happened to Desmond Reid, the name attributed to the first GUCK?


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## Sorn (Jul 16, 2003)

That's a good question. I don't think he was ever involved in the d20 version, but I believe he updated his site to link to ours in the early stages of the project. 

There should be a link back to his site (with the original guide) somewhere on ours.


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## Azure Trance (Jul 16, 2003)

Might I ask for links?


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## brevdravis (Jul 17, 2003)

*Birth and Labor, 2nd draft*

Okay, thanks for your patience folks,

Here's my first take on the labor and delivery.  It's based off the stuff on the site, but has a few changes made.  

Childbirth

Giving birth is not without risk for either the morther or the child.  Labor duration is 4d6 hours.  Some people believe that labor will be shorter for the second and subsequent pregnancies, but this has been proven false through experience.

During the first half of labor, a woman is considered to be staggered unless she makes a concentration check at DC20.  This represents that although early labor can be painful, it is nothing compared to what is to come.

During the second half of labor, the mother is considered to be staggered unless she makes a concentration check at DC40.  This check does not allow free action, since the mother needs to make another check every 2 rounds.  (They call them contractions, because if they called them "Horrible pains that make you wonder why you ever wanted children" there wouldn't be any kids.)

Once labor is completed, the mother has to succeed at a constitution check.  The Standard DC is 10, which means that a totally average woman will have a problem 1/2 of the time.  From a historical perspective, this is sadly true.  However, there are numerous modifiers that can help or hinder the process.

Environment
Good conditions.  (Clean, well lighted, comfortable)  +2
Uncomfortable environment.                                      -1
Unhygenic conditions (Stacks with uncomfortable)    -2

Helpers
Midwife (Prof:  Midwife, Check DC10)                          +6
Healer   (Heal Check, DC10)                                        +4
Layman (Heal Check, DC5)                                          +1

Special children and potential crossbreed problems should be handled on a case by case basis.  Generally  if there is a special modifier, it will be listed in the Race category.

Success on the check indicates that the birth was successful for both mother and child.  The mother and child are both considered Exhausted.  Bed rest and recuperation time are Highly recommended.

Failure on the check indicates a problem.  Due to the huge number of possibilities, this is represented by damage to the mother.  The mother takes a point of damage by each point the check was failed by.  If this is enough to kill the mother, she dies giving birth. 
The child needs to make a simple constitution check in this case.  If successful, the child lives.   Please note that this is especially tragic if there is no wet nurse nearby to take care of an orphan.  
Failure by the child results in another death.
One other case needs to be addressed.  If the mother takes 1/2 her hitpoints in damage from a birth, there is a strong chance the child will die during birth.  Make a constitution check for the child.   If successful, the child lives, if not, the child dies.

It's A....!
Naturally, once the mother has gone through several months of labor, the appearance of the little one will be of much interest.
For standard races roll a die.  If the roll is high, it's a girl.  If low, a boy.
Variations by race are handled by the DM or addressed in the Races chapter.

Stats.  
After birth, the child no longer has the protection of the mother's womb.  Generate stats of the newborn and apply the age modifiers from table 5-xx  (Don't have it yet...).  Over the years, general social circumstances and training will determine which class the child will adapt.   
A child starts with NO skill points,
No feats, no Move speed, 
and 1 hitpoint.   Everything else must be learned.

To determine physical appearance, a blending of the parental features are appropriate.

Mutations:
Personally, I think this area doesn't need too much, but that's just me....

Stuart


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 18, 2003)

*Re: Birth and Labor, 2nd draft*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *
> Once labor is completed, the mother has to succeed at a constitution check.  The Standard DC is 10, which means that a totally average woman will have a problem 1/2 of the time.  From a historical perspective, this is sadly true.  However, there are numerous modifiers that can help or hinder the process.
> 
> Environment
> ...




         For an unassisted birth this seems awfully lethal.  An awful lot of such women are going to be Com1/Con 10's.  She will die on a 5 or less--in other words, 25% of the time.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 18, 2003)

Wotcher all,

I've come back from a somewhat extended vacation, and its nice to see the ideas you've all come up with. I lack (for the moment) the time to go into detail about every outstanding issue, but will formulate a long and waffling rant at some point in the near future.

The current thread is looking a little heavy, so I will be posting the 'Adult: GUCK development forum IV' on Sunday-ish. The enclosed 'Full Mechanics v2.0' need very little tweaking, as I merely have to acquire and adapt the current rulings on pregnancy, childbirth et al. I lack your email address, Sorn, but ould otherwise be delighted to send you my copy at the time. No, the Full Mechanics aren't a definitive ruling, any more than any of my other adaptations, and my editing is open to as much criticism as you can throw at me.

Brevdravis, I like your childbirth rules, despite the high commoner mortality. Alzrius, I eagerly await your effects on the unborn child, and if posted over the next few days it will be worked into the v2.0. Sorn, Loren, Psyckosama et al, thanks for your valid comments and contributions.

I'll have the new topic up at the end of the weekend; in the meantime continue to discuss outstanding issues, as nothing here is final and I want as broad a consensus as possible for the v2.0 mechanics.

Cheers,

DbS


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## brevdravis (Jul 18, 2003)

*Addendum to the pregnancy rules...*

You guys make a good point about the lethality on Com1's BUUUUT..... Historically many women did die in childbirth without help.   Usually their first child...

How bout this modifier....  

2nd and subsequent births:  +3 to con check

That makes it more likely that a woman who has had children before will be able to do so again.  

Stuart


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 19, 2003)

*Re: Addendum to the pregnancy rules...*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *You guys make a good point about the lethality on Com1's BUUUUT..... Historically many women did die in childbirth without help.   Usually their first child...
> 
> How bout this modifier....
> 
> ...




          It's still way too lethal, though.  There's still plenty of women who don't make it to the hospital in time.  Many of them would be Com1/Con 10's--yet a quarter of them don't die or even suffer any serious problems.


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## brevdravis (Jul 19, 2003)

*not modern setting tho...*

I still think the figures are good.  Even a layman improves the odds, and once again, historically, childbirth did tend to kill women off regularly.

Stuart


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## Psyckosama (Jul 19, 2003)

I recomend you put in aditional modifiers for births assisted by magic or technology. Even a low level Cleric, Adept, Druid or even a Paladin with Lay on Hands around to help would <I>greatly</i> increase chances for a sucessful birth and survival of both mother and child.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 20, 2003)

Psyckosama said:
			
		

> *I recomend you put in aditional modifiers for births assisted by magic or technology. Even a low level Cleric, Adept, Druid or even a Paladin with Lay on Hands around to help would <I>greatly</i> increase chances for a sucessful birth and survival of both mother and child. *




        I don't see that it's much of an issue.  Anyone with magical healing is going to be able to heal damage and at least stabilize her even if they can't heal enough to bring her positive.  In anything other than extreme conditions the birth can't do enough damage to send her below -10hp.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: not modern setting tho...*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *I still think the figures are good.  Even a layman improves the odds, and once again, historically, childbirth did tend to kill women off regularly.
> 
> Stuart *




       But 25% of unattended births resulting in death?!  I've heard of plenty of incidents of women having babies in odd places because they didn't make it in time.  I've never heard of one dying because they didn't make it in time.
       The real killer wasn't birth in the first place but post-partum infection anyway.


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## Sorn (Jul 21, 2003)

How about this for the lethality issue... 

Basing damage on how much the roll failed by will skew the lethality towards the commoner end of things. Let's face it, even in the worst circumstances, a female fighter will shrug off the 12+ points of damage with ease, while it would kill a commoner or anyone with low hit points like mages. Historically speaking, death during childbirth was a fairly common occurence in all social classes. Hence, it should be failry equal for game purposes as well. 

Instead of taking damage, the failed check will drop the mother to -1 hit points and she is considered dying. This will allow clerics/paladins/druids/bards to take care of the problem with healing spells, or lay-people to make heal checks to stabilize.

This might seem to favor the low-hp end of the spectrum, but I believe that it accurately represents the equality of all women giving birth. Note that a high Con modifier will still be very beneficial to the initial check, so adventurers (especially those high-hp/high-Con barbarian ladies) will still have the upper hand. 

Other things on the agenda:

DbS, I'll be looking forward to the 2.0 rules (and the new thread). Btw, my email addy should be on my profile.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 21, 2003)

A brief holding post: sorry for the delay, but the v2.0 rules and new forum will be posted on Tuesday, as I am currently stranded away from home and my files.

As a modicum of warning, I will be using a slightly modified version of brevdravis' rules. True, completely unassisted commoner births away from any healthcare have a 25% fatality rate, but all things considered I feel this is acceptable and no other model I've toyed with offers the balance and realism for that degree of complexity.

The emphasis of the GUCK is not pregnancy, childbirth and so on, although many people will be reading it for those mechanics. I feel that simple and concise rules are easier for players to handle and leave more room for the interesting things. The Prowess skill took ages to develop, as we wanted it as realistic as possible without degenerating into endless percentile dice, modifiers and suchlike. It is still the most complex system contained within the GUCK, but frankly is the area around which the rest of the book is based, and justifies the detail we've put into it.

However, I seem to be irrationally ranting, so I'll see you all on the new forum come Tuesday night. Oh, and if you wish to dispute the childbirth rules and can offer a viable alternative, by all means do so.

Cheers,

DbS


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## Sorn (Jul 21, 2003)

Sounds good DbS. I'll be looking forward to seeing it. 

What is your take on my alternative for death in childbirth?

Also, on a side note, I picked up all three revised core books last week. Right now, I don't see any significant impact of those for the GUCK, but I'll comb through once the 2.0 mechanics are up. The only place where I could see an impact is with PrC's, but since we haven't done those yet, we can worry about it then. And even there, it'll be minor things like feat and skill prerequisites.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 22, 2003)

*Originally posted by Sorn 
How about this for the lethality issue... 

Basing damage on how much the roll failed by will skew the lethality towards the commoner end of things. Let's face it, even in the worst circumstances, a female fighter will shrug off the 12+ points of damage with ease, while it would kill a commoner or anyone with low hit points like mages.*

         Yeah--it's basically meaningless for most characters.

*Historically speaking, death during childbirth was a fairly common occurence in all social classes.*

         But not 25% of unattended births!  I do agree with your point that it's across all classes.

*Instead of taking damage, the failed check will drop the mother to -1 hit points and she is considered dying. This will allow clerics/paladins/druids/bards to take care of the problem with healing spells, or lay-people to make heal checks to stabilize.*

        45% chance of death for the unattended birth from a con 10 woman?!  25% was already way too much!

        You do have a valid point, though.      Maybe we should be looking at con damage instead?


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## Sorn (Jul 22, 2003)

I see what you're saying... Maybe a lower DC is in order. But, let's see what DbS has in the oven for the 2.0 post.


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 24, 2003)

Sorn said:
			
		

> *I see what you're saying... Maybe a lower DC is in order. But, let's see what DbS has in the oven for the 2.0 post. *




           Actually, I think it needs more than just changing the DC--I don't think even a 1 on a d20 should be death.  Problems, certainly, but not simply death.

           The big killer is disease.  While there should be some sort of damage I don't think it should normally do great harm.  However, how about DC5 (and a nasty minus for filthy conditions) to avoid childbed fever?


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## brevdravis (Jul 24, 2003)

*Reason I went with damage....*

The reason I went with damage is to KISS.  (Keep it SIMPLE, S*****)  I admit that it isn't totally realistic, but allows the gm to handle all the difficulties with a simple roll.

Why don't we add a little note, that the gm should decide what went wrong when  applying the damage.  Perhaps stretch it out over a period... etc.  

Since birth isn't the main focus, I felt simple rules were best.

Stuart


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## Loren Pechtel (Jul 25, 2003)

*Re: Reason I went with damage....*



			
				brevdravis said:
			
		

> *The reason I went with damage is to KISS.  (Keep it SIMPLE, S*****)  I admit that it isn't totally realistic, but allows the gm to handle all the difficulties with a simple roll.
> 
> Why don't we add a little note, that the gm should decide what went wrong when  applying the damage.  Perhaps stretch it out over a period... etc.
> 
> ...




         While I see your point I don't like rules that produce a result too far from reality.  Com1's should be able to reproduce without dropping like flies.  Yes, childbirth is risky but it's not like playing Russian Roulette.


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## Sorn (Jul 25, 2003)

I agree with Loren. Straight damage is not scalable across the gap between commoners and adventurers. Anything involving hit points will be a pain to balance unless we want every average woman to die in childbirth. On the other end, any Level 1 Barbarian will never have any risks of the same happening due to a d12 hit die. 

My proposal was to drop anyone who fails the save to -1 hit points, but as Loren pointed out, this could lead to a mass of deaths for unsupervised births. 

How about a confirmation roll like for conception. If the fails her roll, there's a chance for a complication. Reroll with all the same modifiers and if that roll fails as well, death is coming quickly. We'd have to hash out the details on how things work and who actually dies, but how does that sound in broad strokes?


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## brevdravis (Jul 25, 2003)

*I see your point...*

Okay, I see your points....

However I still worry about overcomplicating things. so how bout this, borrowing from sorn's idea...

So if we treat it like a critical for failures, how bout we make the follow-up a straight con check with no modifiers for both the mother and child.

Failure on the follow-up check results in dropping to -1 hit points.

That sound a little better?

Stuart


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## Sorn (Jul 25, 2003)

Sounds like a solution to me.


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 28, 2003)

Sorry for the protracted delays, but some heavy-duty renovation has barricaded my computer behind numerous shelves, benches and cupboards for the remainder of last week. I will compile the last parts of v2.0 (taking your recent suggestions to heart) and post it as soon as humanly possible.

DbS


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## Death By Surfeit (Jul 28, 2003)

This thread is now closed; go to the new "Adult: GUCK development forum IV" for the continuation of development and the v2.0 mechanics.


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## andersonz (Nov 26, 2003)

blah


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