# Hackmaster



## Ampolitor (Aug 27, 2008)

I picked up a few books for Hackmaster and so far the game looks really cool. Anyone else play it? What did you think of it?


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## Crothian (Aug 27, 2008)

Reading the books was fun.  There is a good perspective and comedy about them.  Playing the game was a little too complex for me.  It is not a game I would run, but I did havea lot of fun playing it at cons with people who knew the game really well.


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## Falstaff (Aug 27, 2008)

Great game.

Stay tuned for the new HackMaster game. The first will be HackMaster Basic, followed later by HackMaster advanced.


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## Voadam (Aug 27, 2008)

I own a module (B1) and one of the hacklopedias.

It is basically 1e/2e with a few extra bits such as +20 hp for everybody (for extra hack and slash experience), crits, armor damage, extra races and classes, honor, etc.

Treat it like 1e and use the subsystems you like and it should be fun. Trying to use everything looks a bit cumbersome.

The humor is hit and miss. I did not like the crap humor, the harassment aspect of the adventure (unkillable harassing magic mouths), some of the anachronisms or silliness (drow with curly tooed Keebler booties). Other aspects were great such as the orc slaves progression in the absence of their masters to become heavily armed and militarized then raid the liquor stores.


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## Greylock (Aug 27, 2008)

Double post.


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## Greylock (Aug 27, 2008)

B1 will always hold a special place in my mental scrapbook of gaming memories - poo-flinging lemur, that'll always be a classic. My character spent the entire adventure hunting the damned thing, and the damned thing was always lurking right around every corner.

Every character should have a nemesis.


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## mhensley (Aug 28, 2008)

Voadam said:


> The humor is hit and miss. I did not like the crap humor, the harassment aspect of the adventure (unkillable harassing magic mouths), some of the anachronisms or silliness (drow with curly tooed Keebler booties).




They are probably going to get rid of a lot of this in the new edition of HM.


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## wayne62682 (Aug 28, 2008)

The only problem I had with Hackmaster is the fact that the comedy is a little over the top and too many people take it to the extreme, acting like they do in the comics e.g. killing random NPCs just because they're NPCs, ignoring all roleplaying and just trying to kill things, etc.  There's also the "GM vs. Players" mentality, which because its a staple of the comics makes people think that's how the game is supposed to be played, instead of a tongue-in-cheek attempt to poke fun at early D&D.

The first and only time I played Hackmaster, which was several years ago at a now defunct game store, the group did just this and would actually get new players, give them a minor magic item, and then _kill them_ later on for it, or screwing with players just because (the shop owner's son had the most powerful character and forced everyone else to be his servants on pain of death, basically).  I actually causes quite a scandal on the old Hackmaster forums by talking about it... this was in the day of the Hackmaster Retailer Association, and it actually resulted in the game store being kicked out, because KenzerCo investigated it or some such.  Some of the disgruntled players (the ones who had suffered some of this nonsense, no less!) then came onto the forums to flame and make death threats at me.

Fun times.


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## Falstaff (Aug 28, 2008)

wayne62682 said:


> The only problem I had with Hackmaster is the fact that the comedy is a little over the top and too many people take it to the extreme, acting like they do in the comics e.g. killing random NPCs just because they're NPCs, ignoring all roleplaying and just trying to kill things, etc.  There's also the "GM vs. Players" mentality, which because its a staple of the comics makes people think that's how the game is supposed to be played, instead of a tongue-in-cheek attempt to poke fun at early D&D.
> 
> The first and only time I played Hackmaster, which was several years ago at a now defunct game store, the group did just this and would actually get new players, give them a minor magic item, and then _kill them_ later on for it, or screwing with players just because (the shop owner's son had the most powerful character and forced everyone else to be his servants on pain of death, basically).  I actually causes quite a scandal on the old Hackmaster forums by talking about it... this was in the day of the Hackmaster Retailer Association, and it actually resulted in the game store being kicked out, because KenzerCo investigated it or some such.  Some of the disgruntled players (the ones who had suffered some of this nonsense, no less!) then came onto the forums to flame and make death threats at me.
> 
> Fun times.




Just because someone doesn't know how to run a good game doesn't mean the game is a bad game. Wouldn't you agree?


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## Ampolitor (Aug 29, 2008)

*woo hoo*

I can't wait until I run Robinloft! These modules look really fun. I already have two players that are going to play it. Dont get me wrong I own the 4E books, but there was too much of a video game rpg in it for me. I also didn't care for the new races. A nice set of books but just not for me, I'll go back to the older editions.


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## Voadam (Aug 29, 2008)

mhensley said:


> They are probably going to get rid of a lot of this in the new edition of HM.




I expect so. The Kenzer people have stated the over the top humor issues were a license provision for material that was direct conversion of older materials they were granted as part of their settlement for the unauthorized reprint of their stuff in the Dragon CD. They said that things like their original hackmaster modules (Slaughterhouse Indigo, etc.) were not required to contain such parody gross out humor. As I believe their new system will not be under a license at all I expect it to be closer in tone to their wholly original works. None of their Kalamar gaming stuff I've seen for instance has that style of humor in it.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Aug 29, 2008)

If you like HackMaster, be sure to read the comic/magazine Knights of the Dinner Table.

The one good thing about the big "change" in the upcoming HackMaster edition: I think it will serve to keep the old HackMaster as a separate and desirable entity. I feel that one can use the HM PHB, DMG, Monster & Character splatbooks to run a pretty viable AD&D 2e style of game. 

Once I actually played the game, I didn't find it as complex as it seemed. Character creation is the most complex part of it.


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## Mark Plemmons (Nov 13, 2008)

David Kenzer's posting some spoilers about HackMaster BasicHERE at the moment, for those who are interested.


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## Remathilis (Nov 13, 2008)

Ampolitor said:


> I can't wait until I run Robinloft! These modules look really fun. I already have two players that are going to play it. Dont get me wrong I own the 4E books, but there was too much of a video game rpg in it for me. I also didn't care for the new races. A nice set of books but just not for me, I'll go back to the older editions.




And ten posts into a thread on HackMaster, we get our first 4e-diss.

Godwin would be proud.


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## Darkwolf71 (Nov 13, 2008)

Remathilis said:


> And ten posts into a thread on HackMaster, we get our first 4e-diss.
> 
> Godwin would be proud.




So... 4E is the new Nazi's/Hitler? I'd say you just slammed the game much harder than Amp did.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Nov 13, 2008)

Hackmaster doesn't do much for me.  I find the satire/humor off-putting and distracting, and I'm not a big fan of kickers, critical hits, et cetera.  I think the HM rules are more like 2e than 1e (and I prefer 1e).  So HM adds elements that I don't like.  The elements that I *do* like about Hackmaster are already present in TSR D&D, so I'd rather stick with that.

I did like the _City of Brass_ and _Slaughterhouse Indigo_ better than most of the HM stuff, though.


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## thedungeondelver (Nov 14, 2008)

*HACKMASTER* gave me, if nothing else, a chart in the *GAME MASTERS GUIDE* that paralleled the one in the *DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE* as suggestions for spell costs as cast by NPC clerics, but for magic-users.

So never let it be said that I didn't get some use out of it.


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## Holy Bovine (Nov 14, 2008)

I had a bunch of HM stuff about 4 years ago.  Played it a couple of times (and tried to read the cramped tiny font in the GMG) and just felt it was a joke looking for a game.  Once the 'funny' wears off and you start trying to play the game it really isn't worth the (monumental) effort.


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## Betote (Nov 14, 2008)

HM is a good game that solves some of the bugs of 1e/2e AD&D (skill system), adds some interesting new features (open die rolls, % for all the abilities) and has some other rules planted there as humor (I think mainly because of the license): (Honor, the alignment chart, PC generation charts...) which you can use or not.

I think of HM as an AD&D 3e, and when I run it I try to avoid those rules that I don't like and use the ones I think are improvements to the game. Truth is, I never really liked AD&D, but I find myself reasonably comfortable with HM. Not as comfortable as with RC or 3.5, but close enough 

And the GMG is a must-have for a D&D DM. It's full of useful advice and bits (I use some of the magic items and the random dungeon tables for my RC games, for instance).


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 3, 2009)

HackMaster Basic (HMb, for those of you that like abbreviations) has gone to press!  We plan to get it right before Origins or a little sooner.  

I'll try and get some PDF previews up soon.


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## rkwoodard (Jun 3, 2009)

*Payoff*



Mark Plemmons said:


> HackMaster Basic (HMb, for those of you that like abbreviations) has gone to press! We plan to get it right before Origins or a little sooner.
> 
> I'll try and get some PDF previews up soon.





Hello,

I few years ago (I think) you had a promotion where you sent out copies of an earlier HMG free (+Shipping).  I got one, I read through it as promised and I knew I would not be able to get my group to play (we only play every few months now).

However, because of that, I am interested in the new basic version, and although I barely can call myself a gamer, and don't have a huge gaming budget, Hack Basic will get a serious look over from me.

I thought you would appreciate knowing that how you run your business has had an impact.

Regards,
RK


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jun 3, 2009)

I'm running a HackMaster game at Mark's old stomping grounds. I'm looking forward to seeing what the new system is like.


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## mhensley (Jun 3, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> HackMaster Basic (HMb, for those of you that like abbreviations) has gone to press!  We plan to get it right before Origins or a little sooner.
> 
> I'll try and get some PDF previews up soon.




W00t!!!


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## Falstaff (Jun 3, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> HackMaster Basic (HMb, for those of you that like abbreviations) has gone to press!  We plan to get it right before Origins or a little sooner.
> 
> I'll try and get some PDF previews up soon.




Freakin' awesome! What a great summer ahead: new HackMaster and TOOL's touring. Hoody ho!


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jun 4, 2009)

OK, I've seen the Erol Otus cover and I'm pretty giddy with anticipation for this book.







192 pages, June 30th release date.

I wish it came in a box with dice and a crayon, but heck, I can deal.


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## joethelawyer (Jun 4, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> OK, I've seen the Erol Otus cover and I'm pretty giddy with anticipation for this book.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






I've never played Hackmaster, but I've read through the books to try and get the flavor of it.  To me, the core rules themselves seemed like a different 2nd edition.  Sort of a different evolution of AD&D, incorporating the best of 2nd edition, plus other cool stuff, without adding in a lot of the stuff I don't like in 3.x.  But the over the top humor stuff like Blues Dragons and Gummy Golems turned me off a bit.  That's after reading it for an hour or so in a store, so I can't speak from actual play experience.

 But this new edition apparently gets rid of a lot of the over the top stuff, and seems to have improved upon many of the good elements they developed for the prior edition.  They even made a lot of changes and additions, such as to Vancian magic, which actually look really good. They improved upon some of my sacred cows, it seems, and added a lot more cool stuff.

 And in reading through this massive thread here:

http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40360

 I can't believe how much detail Kenzer gives about the Basic as well as the Advanced game.  

I especially like Kenzer's attitude towards gaming in general, as demonstrated in his posts there.  (Note:  fans of 4e shouldn't expect to be overjoyed by his characterizations).

 Due to the enthusiasm people have towards retro editions these days, and also due to Kenzer's experience in actually getting books on shelves, and most importantly due to the quality of the stuff they put out, I think Hackmaster is going to be something really big once all 3 core Advanced books are out.  By that I mean way bigger than they were before.  

I think they can end up in the pole position of the old school movement when the Advanced books are all finally released in about a year to 18 months.

 Just a prediction.


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## mhensley (Jun 4, 2009)

joethelawyer said:


> I think they can end up in the pole position of the old school movement when the Advanced books are all finally released in about a year to 18 months.




I agree with you in that I think the new edition of HM will be successful, but I'm not too sure of it winning the hearts and minds of the old school D&D players.  Many people played HM4 because it was so close to being a new version of AD&D.  That's no longer the case.  The new HM is very different than AD&D and that will put some of them off.  This new version of HM is finally its own game and will have to succeed or fail on its own merits.  Personally, I liked it (as a playtester) and can't wait to get it.  I think the audience it will do very well with are the D&D players who have always wanted more realism and simulation from D&D.  In many ways, HM is the anti D&D 4e.  Where D&D 4e is very gamist, HM is very sim.


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## rogueattorney (Jun 4, 2009)

192 page "Basic" rule book?  Well, that's in keeping with the D&D on steroids approach of the previous edition.


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## mhensley (Jun 4, 2009)

rogueattorney said:


> 192 page "Basic" rule book?  Well, that's in keeping with the D&D on steroids approach of the previous edition.




It's only basic compared to what will be in advanced.


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## mhensley (Jun 9, 2009)

They just posted the HMb table of contents and foreward by Gary Jackson-

http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/HackMaster_Basic_ToC.pdf

http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/HackMaster_Basic_Gary_foreword.pdf


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## joethelawyer (Jun 9, 2009)

mhensley said:


> They just posted the HMb table of contents and foreward by Gary Jackson-
> 
> http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/HackMaster_Basic_ToC.pdf
> 
> http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/HackMaster_Basic_Gary_foreword.pdf




wow.  and thats basic.


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## scourger (Jun 9, 2009)

Cool forward and table of contents.


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## Gansk (Jun 9, 2009)

Why is there 12 pages on dice?


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## Glyfair (Jun 9, 2009)

Gansk said:


> Why is there 12 pages on dice?



Because it's only the Basic version and they wanted to save the detail (such as all the dice cleansing rituals) for the Advanced version?


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## The Human Target (Jun 9, 2009)

Gansk said:


> Why is there 12 pages on dice?




I was wondering that myself.


In regards to the OPs question, I've read the HM books and made characters for fun but have never played it and don't intend to.

As much as I love the Knights of the Dinner Table, thats not the kind of game nor system I want to run or play.


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## Baumi (Jun 9, 2009)

Damn I hopped HM Basic was an RPG for me (looked simple, funny and with old-school Flair) but with 30 Pages of Skills and needing a Die-Roll for defense it already hits two pet peaves of mine without even taking a closer look. 

Knowing myself I will still buy it, even though I will not play it.


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## lejanius (Jun 10, 2009)

Baumi said:


> Damn I hopped HM Basic was an RPG for me (looked simple, funny and with old-school Flair) but with 30 Pages of Skills and needing a Die-Roll for defense it already hits two pet peaves of mine without even taking a closer look.
> 
> Knowing myself I will still buy it, even though I will not play it.




your doing yourself a disservice in not playing this game.  Not only does the opposed roll make combat more fun and exciting but the rules in general just make a lot of sense.

Knockbacks, shields being destroyed by blows, getting your shield up in time to block an arrow, Threshold of pain, all of these things make combat fluid, fast, and EXCITING.

Having played the game I can only say give it a shot.  It may not be your cup of tea but I assure you it is a lot of fun, of course everyone's opinion of what they like and don't is different but all I can say is if you buy it, do yourself a favor and roll up some guys and give it a go.


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## Eridanis (Jun 10, 2009)

The fourth character class is "The Clerics?" Misplaced plural, or do they have druid as a cleric subclass?

It'll be interesting to see what this looks like. Thanks for sharing, Mark!


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## DM_Jeff (Jun 10, 2009)

It's one of the most enjoyable reads in my RPG collection. But I'd never play it.

-DM Jeff


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## Agamon (Jun 10, 2009)

lejanius said:


> Knockbacks, shields being destroyed by blows, getting your shield up in time to block an arrow, Threshold of pain, all of these things make combat fluid, fast, and EXCITING.




Sounds complicated though.

Put me in the "check it out, but doubt I'll play it" category.


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## Treebore (Jun 10, 2009)

lejanius said:


> your doing yourself a disservice in not playing this game.  Not only does the opposed roll make combat more fun and exciting but the rules in general just make a lot of sense.
> 
> Knockbacks, shields being destroyed by blows, getting your shield up in time to block an arrow, Threshold of pain, all of these things make combat fluid, fast, and EXCITING.
> 
> Having played the game I can only say give it a shot.  It may not be your cup of tea but I assure you it is a lot of fun, of course everyone's opinion of what they like and don't is different but all I can say is if you buy it, do yourself a favor and roll up some guys and give it a go.





Let me put it this way, I strongly DISLIKE Paladium Fantasy and Warhammer because of all their dodging/blocking/parrying rules and how they bog down combats. Will all of this "sim" stuff in HM actually feel "fluid" in comparison to the two I have used as examples, or be just as bogged down, or even worse?


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 10, 2009)

Eridanis said:


> The fourth character class is "The Clerics?" Misplaced plural, or do they have druid as a cleric subclass?




Neither, actually.    There are five different faiths (of different alignments) represented.  Each faith follows the same basic cleric rules, but also has different special powers and restrictions.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 10, 2009)

By the way, we're offering a special service for Origins attendees. Pre-order your copy of HackMaster Basic before June 23rd, and pick it up at the convention! Simply put "ORIGINS DELIVERY" (or something similar) in the Comments box when you place your order.

If you've already pre-ordered, and you want to have your copy waiting for you at the convention, just send an email to orders(at)kenzerco.com and request Origins delivery. Please include name and your order #, so we can more easily process your request.


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## mhensley (Jun 10, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Let me put it this way, I strongly DISLIKE Paladium Fantasy and Warhammer because of all their dodging/blocking/parrying rules and how they bog down combats. Will all of this "sim" stuff in HM actually feel "fluid" in comparison to the two I have used as examples, or be just as bogged down, or even worse?





Combat in HMb is very fluid (more so than any other rpg I've played).  The only problem I remember having was keeping track of the initiative counts.


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## lejanius (Jun 10, 2009)

@treebore

it is hard to describe combat in a way that won't make it sound complicated without just re-writing the rules here but combat is very fluid.

Things like damaged shields and knockbacks are very intuitive and just a result of damage.

basically there is a flow of an attack (attacker rolls plus bonuses, defended defends plus bonuses) and the results determine the effects.  do enough damage and you could send you foe backwards 5 or 10 feet.  Block a blow with your shield and it may be destroyed.

The rules are very simple, logical, and fluid.  I would say they are not only nothing like pallidium or warhammer (having played both) but they are nothing like any other system out there

one of the problems Hackmaster is going to have is the people who read the previous rules and laughed them off and will refuse to play the new rules.  This is not a re-tread of the last version but a whole new game.

anyway as I said i would give it a shot (especially if attend Origins or Gencon I know they will be running learn to play sessions) but to eash their own, some people will hate the game and others won't but it is a really good set of rules


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## mhensley (Jun 10, 2009)

They just posted a very cool preview pdf.  Check it out here-

http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1185&d=1244666773


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## Voadam (Jun 11, 2009)

lejanius said:


> one of the problems Hackmaster is going to have is the people who read the previous rules and laughed them off and will refuse to play the new rules.  This is not a re-tread of the last version but a whole new game.




Another problem will be those who like HM4e, AD&D, and d20 and see this as a whole new game. One of the great things about 4e was that it was pretty plug and play with basic, 1e, and 2e stuff with little work. How compatible does the new system seem to you? Is it like trying to convert between 2e and 3e or between 1e and 2e?

I know there is that other huge thread by the Kenzer people on their forum providing spoilers but I have not read it yet, just the preview pdfs. 

Is combat basically AD&D with AC changing to d20+defense plus other options like shield damage and knockback? Is it fundamentally different or fairly similar at core?

I know that initiative has changed, but that has changed in most editions of D&D with little problem.


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## lejanius (Jun 11, 2009)

Combat is different than HM4 and the new mechanic is a step in another direction.

If you think AD&D and HM4 is the best thing ever made you may not like HM5, it will be hard to say.  I think comparing the rules is even hard.

I should point out I played in a massive 6 year HM4 game (needless to say I love HM4 and old school AD&D) and I think HM5 blows that game away and having wet my blade (albeit for only a short time) I won't play HM4 ever again, HM5 is just more fun to me.


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## Particle_Man (Jun 11, 2009)

lejanius said:


> having wet my blade (albeit for only a short time).




They have a pill for that.


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## theemrys (Jun 12, 2009)

The best thing I've read about combat is the getting rid of "rounds"... It's now like Aces & Eights (from what I've read) where you just keep counting up initiative for the whole battle, with each count being a second.  Every action (including movement) takes a number of seconds and you go from there.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 12, 2009)

theemrys said:


> The best thing I've read about combat is the getting rid of "rounds"... It's now like Aces & Eights (from what I've read) where you just keep counting up initiative for the whole battle, with each count being a second.  Every action (including movement) takes a number of seconds and you go from there.




Right - it's much easier than Aces & Eights, too.  The Wild West genre requires a lot of detail for moving and using firearms at the same time.   With no firearms in HM (of course), you only need to move or attack, not both simultaneously.


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## Falstaff (Jun 12, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> Right - it's much easier than Aces & Eights, too.  The Wild West genre requires a lot of detail for moving and using firearms at the same time.   With no firearms in HM (of course), you only need to move or attack, not both simultaneously.




What about firing a bow while moving?


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## Agamon (Jun 12, 2009)

theemrys said:


> The best thing I've read about combat is the getting rid of "rounds"... It's now like Aces & Eights (from what I've read) where you just keep counting up initiative for the whole battle, with each count being a second.  Every action (including movement) takes a number of seconds and you go from there.




Interesting.  How would one track initiative in such a system?  Maybe the A&8 players on the KenzerCo boards have some ideas (I think it'd need to be something different than the magnetic whiteboard I've been using in 3e/4e).


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 13, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> What about firing a bow while moving?




Beyond the scope of Basic.  Not that you've got a good chance of hitting anything like that, anyway, regardless of what Peter Jackson's elves did...


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jun 13, 2009)

Mark, is the book black and white or color?

With a $20.00 price for 200 pages, I'm guessing black and white.

Also -- who is doing the cover art for the Advanced version?


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## Sonny (Jun 13, 2009)

The preview definitely has me excited about the new Hackmaster. Especially now that the required silliness is gone. This will be the first Kenzer product I've picked up in a long time.


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## Hairfoot (Jun 13, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Let me put it this way, I strongly DISLIKE Paladium Fantasy and Warhammer because of all their dodging/blocking/parrying rules and how they bog down combats.



Me also.  Micromanaged combat systems make fights feel more like drawn-out  choreography sessions.


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## Treebore (Jun 13, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> Right - it's much easier than Aces & Eights, too.  The Wild West genre requires a lot of detail for moving and using firearms at the same time.   With no firearms in HM (of course), you only need to move or attack, not both simultaneously.





EASIER than Aces and Eights? Well, since I love A&8's and the shot clock, I'm in on giving it a go.

Thanks to Lajanius and the others for the answers you gave as well.


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## theemrys (Jun 13, 2009)

Agamon said:


> Interesting.  How would one track initiative in such a system?  Maybe the A&8 players on the KenzerCo boards have some ideas (I think it'd need to be something different than the magnetic whiteboard I've been using in 3e/4e).




Well, "Initiative" only happens at the start.. and then every action just takes a certain amount of seconds... so you just keep counting up seconds of the battle.  As a GM you just keep increasing the number and when someone's action comes up on that "count" you resolve it.  Also, people can change their action at any time and "restart" their time.  (Assuming it's the same as A&8 that way).  I find it a lot more intuitive and think it will work better for things like spells and such as you'll know exactly what timeframe they can be interrupted, etc.  Also, it means you can change your movement to react to a changing situation while still keeping the battle flowing.  Also, makes smaller faster weapons have an advantage (to counter their reach issues in most cases).  Also gets rid of the "I'm done for this round so I'll go read something until it's my turn again" issues.

As for actually tracking it, a whiteboard still works well as you just keep counting the number up and if you wanted, you can each PCs/NPC/Monster's name on there with the count when their next action takes place.


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 13, 2009)

That initiative system sounds keen...I wonder if I can reverse-engineer it to work in a d20 system with FFZ...I like that "seconds" is the only measurement of time, but I'm a little worried that speedier characters will be overly favored. If my buddy the thief gets three attacks in the time it takes me, the barbarian, to get one, is my attack three times as accurate and three times as powerful?

That works in the Old West (where "quickest on the draw" is important, and where attacks are pretty binary), but with a more heroic fantasy vibe, I dunno...

Gotta check that out...


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## theemrys (Jun 13, 2009)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> That initiative system sounds keen...I wonder if I can reverse-engineer it to work in a d20 system with FFZ...I like that "seconds" is the only measurement of time, but I'm a little worried that speedier characters will be overly favored. If my buddy the thief gets three attacks in the time it takes me, the barbarian, to get one, is my attack three times as accurate and three times as powerful?
> 
> That works in the Old West (where "quickest on the draw" is important, and where attacks are pretty binary), but with a more heroic fantasy vibe, I dunno...
> 
> Gotta check that out...




Well, I haven't played HMB yet to see how it plays out, but my hunch is that it doesn't have that dramatic of a difference in time.. but I don't know.  Also, I expect that the larger, slower weapons do MUCH more damage, which in a system with DR makes a bigger difference as well, rather than a number of small hits.


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## Agamon (Jun 13, 2009)

theemrys said:


> As for actually tracking it, a whiteboard still works well as you just keep counting the number up and if you wanted, you can each PCs/NPC/Monster's name on there with the count when their next action takes place.




Yeah, I kinda got how it worked, just wondering how tracking all these upcoming actions would work.  I suppose the players would each know what second their action happens and the GM keeps track of the monsters.  Maybe tracking it on a board or paper might be more work than it's worth.


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## theemrys (Jun 15, 2009)

Agamon said:


> Yeah, I kinda got how it worked, just wondering how tracking all these upcoming actions would work.  I suppose the players would each know what second their action happens and the GM keeps track of the monsters.  Maybe tracking it on a board or paper might be more work than it's worth.




Well, in A&8 I've used a board with count up on it... (downloads for the printout on the Kenzerco site).  Basically it's a piece of wood with 3/4 inch boxes on it that count up from 1 to 50... Then I got little wooden blocks and put each PC and NPC on one of them.  The player puts their block on the count of their next action.  It's more confusing in A&8 since shooting and movement happen separately, so should be simpler in Hack.  Anyway, then you have a current count marker move up, and you just loop around when you hit 50.  It works pretty well.  

I'm actually looking for a cribbage board to use.  Then you can just keep track of the current count, and give each person in the encounter a different colour and they put the pin at the number of their next action.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 15, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> Mark, is the book black and white or color?
> 
> With a $20.00 price for 200 pages, I'm guessing black and white.
> 
> Also -- who is doing the cover art for the Advanced version?




Yes, b&w.  We haven't announced the Advanced book covers yet, but they're going to be pretty cool.



Agamon said:


> Yeah, I kinda got how it worked, just wondering how tracking all these upcoming actions would work.  I suppose the players would each know what second their action happens and the GM keeps track of the monsters.  Maybe tracking it on a board or paper might be more work than it's worth.




I think so.  Each player can easily keep track of his own initiative and actions - the GM has better things to do.


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## Ulairi (Jun 15, 2009)

If a player doesn't know when it is his turn to act, it's not my job as the GM to tell him. It's combat not "wait around for someone to pay attention"bat.


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## Agamon (Jun 15, 2009)

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be tracking it as GM.  As DM, I'm not the initiative tracker in my D&D game, either.  But yeah, having each player track their own looks like it would be easier.  Might it not get dicey for the DM if there are different enemies in a fight?


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 16, 2009)

> "wait around for someone to pay attention"bat.




I have one of those... it's this:







"Is it my turn yet?"
**whack!**


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## Lidgar (Jun 16, 2009)

*Amazon?*

Any chance that Hackmaster Basic will be available on Amazon? Happy to order straight from the site, just curious.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 16, 2009)

Lidgar said:


> Any chance that Hackmaster Basic will be available on Amazon? Happy to order straight from the site, just curious.




Yes, it will eventually be available from Amazon.


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## Mika (Jun 16, 2009)

Ulairi said:


> If a player doesn't know when it is his turn to act, it's not my job as the GM to tell him. It's combat not "wait around for someone to pay attention"bat.




If you have a large number of players, you probably want the DM to track initiative just to maintain a semblance of order.  In our Friday games, the DM uses index cards to track initiative and calls out each character's name when it is his or her turn.  On the rare occasions when somebody isn't paying attention, they get a nudge.  In the more likely event that they left the room for a bathroom or smoking break, the DM usually rules that they delay until they get back.


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## Ulairi (Jun 16, 2009)

Mika said:


> If you have a large number of players, you probably want the DM to track initiative just to maintain a semblance of order. In our Friday games, the DM uses index cards to track initiative and calls out each character's name when it is his or her turn. On the rare occasions when somebody isn't paying attention, they get a nudge. In the more likely event that they left the room for a bathroom or smoking break, the DM usually rules that they delay until they get back.




For my games, I use index cards with player info on them. That way, I can just tell a player if they are getting it and by what. Speeds up the game and makes for a better game. 

But, if a player decides to get up and leave, they lose their turn that round. Bathroom breaks are ok. I'm really interested in seeing how to handle combat with HMB. I'll know next Tuesday when I have the book.

I'm super excited for it.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jun 16, 2009)

OK, here's a few more questions"

How hard will it be to convert monsters from the HoB's for compatibility with HMb5?

I'm sure the HMb5 will include several monsters, but I've got over 8 frikkin' volumes of HM4 on the shelf that I'd like to use as well... at least until the new HM5 Hacklopedias come out.


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## Voadam (Jun 16, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> OK, here's a few more questions"
> 
> How hard will it be to convert monsters from the HoB's for compatibility with HMb5?
> 
> I'm sure the HMb5 will include several monsters, but I've got over 8 frikkin' volumes of HM4 on the shelf that I'd like to use as well... at least until the new HM5 Hacklopedias come out.




The HM5 Hacklopedia will be 256 pages. The 8 core HM 4 Hacklopedias were 128 pages each. So I expect about 75% of the core HM 4 monsters won't be in the HM Hacklopedia unless they get up to a Hacklopedia 4 hardcover.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 17, 2009)

Voadam said:


> The HM5 Hacklopedia will be 256 pages. The 8 core HM 4 Hacklopedias were 128 pages each. So I expect about 75% of the core HM 4 monsters won't be in the HM Hacklopedia unless they get up to a Hacklopedia 4 hardcover.




You must be psychic - we haven't confirmed a page count yet.    The single volume Hacklopedia for the new edition could be anywhere from 192 to 400 pages.

You can expect to see a lot of classic fantasy monsters, plus new ones, and some that appeared in the previous edition.  We don't have a final list to announce yet, though.

I think converting humanoid monsters should be pretty easy, if you're interested in doing that.  The more bizarre creatures might take some more work.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jun 17, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> You must be psychic - we haven't confirmed a page count yet.    The single volume Hacklopedia for the new edition could be anywhere from 192 to 400 pages.




Will there be Flumphs, or are those WotC intellectual property?


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## mhensley (Jun 17, 2009)

another preview-

http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1187&d=1245261086


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## Voadam (Jun 17, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> You must be psychic - we haven't confirmed a page count yet.    The single volume Hacklopedia for the new edition could be anywhere from 192 to 400 pages.
> 
> You can expect to see a lot of classic fantasy monsters, plus new ones, and some that appeared in the previous edition.  We don't have a final list to announce yet, though.
> 
> I think converting humanoid monsters should be pretty easy, if you're interested in doing that.  The more bizarre creatures might take some more work.




You are right, I was misremembering the numbers from this post where you told me you expected the not yet completed HM5 Haklopedia to be between 300 and 400 pages. Still a little less than the thousand pages from 8 126 page HM 4 Hacklopedias.

Mea Culpa.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 18, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> Will there be Flumphs, or are those WotC intellectual property?




There won't be any WotC intellectual property.  (You want flumphs?  Seriously? )  

We're basing our monsters on historical and fantastical myths and legends, plus new 'imaginings.'  Of course, TSR also used plenty of monsters that came from similar sources, so you're bound to see some familiar creatures.

We'll also be reintroducing some of our original monsters from HM 4th edition, like the Sturmwolf and others.


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## Hard8Staff (Jun 18, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> What about firing a bow while moving?




The reason shooting and movement don't need to be tracked separately, like they are in A&8s, is because no actions in HMb take less than one second...unlike in the western genre when you can empty your colt in 3 seconds flat (or less).  See also gatling guns.


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## Hard8Staff (Jun 19, 2009)

Books are arriving at our dock today.  You can still preorder by 5pm and it'll get mailed before origins (you can also go with the 'notify Plemmons' method and pick up your preorder at origins if you will be there).


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## Mark Plemmons (Jun 19, 2009)

Specifically, just type "ORIGINS DELIVERY" (or something similar) in the Comments box when you place your order on our website.
(If you've already pre-ordered, and you want to have your copy waiting for you at the convention, just send an email to orders(at)kenzerco.com and request Origins delivery. Please include name and your order #, so we can more easily process your request.)

(I'll still be shipping Monday, too, but orders or pre-orders placed after Sunday June 21st will probably not ship until the week of July 1st.)


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm hoping that my local store will have it available on the release date.

Are there any other tie-in products coming out? One-legged dwarf miniatures? Honor dice? T-shirts? Coupons? Hubcaps of shame?


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## Agamon (Jun 19, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> I'm hoping that my local store will have it available on the release date.
> 
> Are there any other tie-in products coming out? One-legged dwarf miniatures? Honor dice? T-shirts? Coupons? Hubcaps of shame?




You know, I would buy both a hubcap of shame and a one-legged dwarf mini (though only one, sorry Weird Pete).


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## Falstaff (Jun 22, 2009)

Official HackMaster Basic character sheet:

http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/HMb/HMb_PC_sheet_090601.pdf


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## Falstaff (Jun 23, 2009)

Illustrated combat example:

Kenzer & Company Discussion Forums


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## Thondor (Jun 23, 2009)

Interesting thanks for posting the charactersheet up. I've always said 'a charactersheet is worth a thousand words', it can tell you a fair bit about a rules system.


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## Voadam (Jun 23, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> Official HackMaster Basic character sheet:
> 
> http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/HMb/HMb_PC_sheet_090601.pdf




Observations:

Animal Husbandry, Fire Building, Torture, Salesmanship as skills.

Skills are ability score in % plus bp.

Mastery levels for languages

Weapons have both speed and init factors

Lots of specialization options up to +5 bonuses in various weapon numbers

Build points for skill and specialization increases/ separate from xp for levels

Armor = DR

Shield = defense bonus and absorbs X hp (this is the shields can be hacked apart and used up aspect I'd guess)

Luck points

Threshold for pain

Number of days for individual wounds to heal

Spell points

Looks like one spell per level plus one apprentice and one journeyman

Snarky comment about cleric spells 

Honor

Str does damage but not attack.

Int and Dex do attack modifiers.

Wis and Dex do defense modifiers and init modifiers.

Looks is a separate ability score from cha.

Percentages for every ability score


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## Nikosandros (Jun 24, 2009)

Interesting example. It looks a bit more complicated than I thought for a basic version, but hopefully I'll be able to judge for myself soon...


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## Treebore (Jun 24, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> Interesting example. It looks a bit more complicated than I thought for a basic version, but hopefully I'll be able to judge for myself soon...




Yep, me too. Hopefully my pre order shipped yesterday.


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## Nikosandros (Jun 24, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Yep, me too. Hopefully my pre order shipped yesterday.




Mine was shipped on Friday... but it has to cross the Atlantic and then be processed by those champions of efficiency that work for the Italian customs...


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## Korgoth (Jun 24, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> Interesting example. It looks a bit more complicated than I thought for a basic version, but hopefully I'll be able to judge for myself soon...




Looks complicated to me, too.

I have one on order with my ILGS (Incompetent Local Game Store) on the strength of the cover alone.


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## Agamon (Jun 24, 2009)

Complicated was my first reaction, too.  Some cool ideas, but there seems like a lot of stuff to track and know (I suppose a DM screen with a lot of needed om-the-fly charts would be handy).


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## neg (Jun 24, 2009)

*Hmb*

Received the book on Monday, had our first session on Tuesday.  My GM is efficient like that.

The system is not as complicated as it first seems, combat and the opposed roll makes for a very fast paced combat and lots of excitement and held breaths.  

Without getting into edition wars and comparisons, I would say that I have had the most fun with this system than any other system since 1E.  I have played 1E, 3E, 3.5E, 4E, the previous Hackmaster system, and three months before HMB came out I spent $300 dollars on Castles and Crusades materials.  HMB is a better system than all of them in my opinion.

The amount of play testing they did really shows up in the game.  Combat, weapondry, and armor makes sense.  Shields are a big part of the game.  Missle weapons are game breakers, and combat is incredibly deadly.  One wrong dice roll at low level can really shift things.  We seemed to have a few instances where the attacker rolled a nat 20 (double damage dice, which considering a battle axe does 4d4 and a long sword does 2d8 normally is huge) and the defender rolls a nat 1 (resulting in the attacker getting an additional attack the very next second).  Those can turn your party ambush from a surprise attack into thanking the Gawds that you created a human who can outleg the halfing when you flee.

I encourage everyone to take a look at the system.  It is highly enjoyable, a great change of pace, and well thought out.  And only $20 too...

-neg


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## Korgoth (Jun 24, 2009)

I like the look of the deadliness of it... if I run Hackmaster it will be to explore a muscular, adversarial style of gaming. I was just worried about it being to complicated and "rulesy"... I'm a rules-lite type of guy.


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## Ulairi (Jun 24, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> I like the look of the deadliness of it... if I run Hackmaster it will be to explore a muscular, adversarial style of gaming. I was just worried about it being to complicated and "rulesy"... I'm a rules-lite type of guy.




HMb isn't that rulesy at all. Also, most of the rules make sense and they are very logical. There are a lot of "rules" that games like D&D 4E and other systems do not have, such as honour but the honour rules aren't complicatedl


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## Falstaff (Jun 24, 2009)

Well, to be honest, if you are a rules-lite type of guy, then HMb probably isn't going to be much fun for you. I have the book and have read most of it so I can say without a doubt that even though it says "Basic" on the cover, don't be confused by thinking it is Basic in the sense of Basic D&D. This game is crunchy.

I should mention that I LOVE this game. It has now become my all-time favorite fantasy RPG - even over AD&D, and for me, that's saying a hell of a lot.

It is old-school gaming built with modern game design techniques - to quote a section from the introduction.

All I can say is that HMb is a hard and difficult climb to the top. It is truly something to brag about if you can claim you have a high level HackMaster character.

HMb isn't for everyone. It is hard hitting, old school gaming. If you don't like the realization that it is a deadly business to go traipsing around in monster filled dungeons and that your character can most assuredly die UNLESS YOU PLAY SMART, then HM might not be for you. If you like your characters to be powerful heroes right outta the gate, HM might not be for you. Victories are harder to obtain, but because of that, they are all the sweeter and more meaningful.

HM requires smart, creative play or you will constantly be rolling up new characters. It doesn't coddle to wuss players. There's no crying in HM.


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## Nikosandros (Jun 24, 2009)

Ulairi said:


> HMb isn't that rulesy at all. Also, most of the rules make sense and they are very logical. There are a lot of "rules" that games like D&D 4E and other systems do not have, such as honour but the honour rules aren't complicatedl




All the rules for advanced combat in GURPS make a lot of sense and are extremely logical, that doesn't make them simple.


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## SteveC (Jun 24, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> Illustrated combat example:
> 
> Kenzer & Company Discussion Forums



I think taking a look at this example is a good idea to see if Hackmaster is the right game for you. I have a good friend who absolutely loves HM and is very stoked about the new system. After reading the example combat, I think I'm going to pass. I love crunch, but there is way too much of it here for what is essentially a routine combat between three PCs and four minor monsters.

Not for me, but take a look at it: I have no doubt that this is exactly the sort of thing that many folks will enjoy.

--Steve


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## AnthonyRoberson (Jun 24, 2009)

The real measure of popularity for the new edition of Hackmaster of course will be how fast the book shows up on the torrents...


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## Korgoth (Jun 24, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> Well, to be honest, if you are a rules-lite type of guy, then HMb probably isn't going to be much fun for you. I have the book and have read most of it so I can say without a doubt that even though it says "Basic" on the cover, don't be confused by thinking it is Basic in the sense of Basic D&D. This game is crunchy.
> 
> I should mention that I LOVE this game. It has now become my all-time favorite fantasy RPG - even over AD&D, and for me, that's saying a hell of a lot.
> 
> ...





A lot of its aspects sound good to me. I am going to try it, even though it's not rules lite. I don't have any expectation that it will replace OD&D or B/X as my go-to games. Of course, if it's too crunchy I may never run it at all (outside of a one-shot). But I'm looking forward to reading it.

There's no crying in OD&D, either.


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## mhensley (Jun 24, 2009)

SteveC said:


> After reading the example combat, I think I'm going to pass.




Pro-tip:  The combat example makes a lot more sense after you read the rules on combat.


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## mhensley (Jun 24, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> I should mention that I LOVE this game. It has now become my all-time favorite fantasy RPG - even over AD&D, and for me, that's saying a hell of a lot.




+1

I dare not say this too loud (for fear of jinxing myself) , but this might be the legendary chosen one that has long been looked for.


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## Treebore (Jun 24, 2009)

Yeah, it doesn't "look" rules lite, but I have found a couple of games where it looks like rules will get in the way, but actually seem to disappear when the playing gets going. Hopefully that will be the case here.


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## theemrys (Jun 29, 2009)

SteveC said:


> I love crunch, but there is way too much of it here for what is essentially a routine combat between three PCs and four minor monsters.




Definitely each to their own, but having read the book, I'd argue that there aren't any "minor monsters"..   In HMB you basically start pretty close to an average joe with a few bits of training... so goblins are not anything to sneeze at.. especially if you're jumped.  

I'm looking forward to playing through a combat this weekend, but from what I've seen and heard, it does sound like combat will flow pretty smooth as you play...


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## SteveC (Jun 29, 2009)

mhensley said:


> Pro-tip:  The combat example makes a lot more sense after you read the rules on combat.



Thanks for the tip, but the combat made perfect sense, it was just waaaay too involved for me these days. Back in college, I would have been all over it, (I was playing a game called Swords Path Glory--which tracked actions in 100s of a second) but that makes me think that there is a definite audience for the game and that it will be fairly successful. You just have to really be on the heavy crunch side of the crunch/fluff axis.

--Steve


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## Nebulous (Jun 29, 2009)

I've preordered this and am waiting for it to show up at the hobby store. Never played the earlier incarnation although i bought a few of the books.  I NEVER would have run such a game, although it looked intriguing.  But the Basic...now this i might be able to get a grasp on. i'm liking 4e well enough but a gritty old school dungeon romp where you surive by wits and luck, not your superpowers, seems like a helluva fun time.


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## Baumi (Jun 29, 2009)

What are the tactics in this game?

So far I would love to try a tick based System and I think the KODT Combat Explanation is superb (WOTC should hire them to do a 4E-Combatbooklet)  , but I don't like that there seems many random rolls without any player influence. Defense is randomiced, Shieldpenetration (destroing the shield) is random, push back is random, knock out is random,...

Can anyone who has the book tell me some cool things about hackmaster combat that the comic ignored (they cannot show everything..)?


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## mhensley (Jun 29, 2009)

Baumi said:


> What are the tactics in this game?




Pretty much just like D&D - gang up on enemies and try to roll 20's. 

The main tactical choices in HMb come from weapon and armor choices.  Armor makes you easier to hit (gives negatives to defense mod) but reduces the damage you take.  Faster weapons allow you hit more often but don't do as much damage and may not penetrate your opponents armor.  Longer weapons let you hit before shorter ones.  There's a lot more tactical thinking involved in these things than in D&D.  For example, the guy playing a cleric in my playtest game chose to wear no armor and just use a shield and a sword.  He also pumped up the stats that added to defense.  He was really hard to hit, but would take a lot of damage when it did happen.

Personally I don't find it a very hard system to run and I'm saying that as someone who found HM4 impossible to run.


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## Agamon (Jun 29, 2009)

I think he meant tactics in play, as opposed to build.  While it looks like a fun game to me (I like randomness, it brings out the storyteller in me), I do like more tactical games as well, like D&D.

Looking forward to checking this out... *crosses fingers that the pre-order is waiting for me at the post office*


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## mhensley (Jun 29, 2009)

Agamon said:


> I think he meant tactics in play, as opposed to build.  While it looks like a fun game to me (I like randomness, it brings out the storyteller in me), I do like more tactical games as well, like D&D.




I've played every version of D&D and haven't seen a whole lot of this tactic thing you speak of.  I mean other than moving to set up a flank or a rogue trying to get a sneak attack.  All of that is in HM as well.  More advanced combat maneuvers are promised to be in AHM.


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## Baumi (Jun 29, 2009)

I really like when your choice in Armor and Weapons are meaningfull but what I ment were tactics in combat itself (pushing back (as a maneuver), sidestep the enemy, knock him down, Feints, Intimitatation, Tricks, etc.). 

I read several times that the heroes have to relly on tactics, wits, thinking, etc. so I thought there were a maneuversystem or some special moves in there.


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## Greymarch2000 (Jun 30, 2009)

I think that the tactics in HMB seem a lot more situational than d20 or 4E. In D&D 3/3.5 you'd tend to build a feat combo that you'd attempt to apply in every combat, maximing the power of your character build. In 4E it seems more of a question of when to use Encounter powers and wondering if you'll get to rest after so is it worth blowing a daily?

Those are all lots of tactical descions but I've always looked at combat in HM (and especially in Basic now from what I hear) as being more dramatic than tactical. Different combats are going to require different tactics, and a good crit or penetration can cause a huge problem, forcing players to think on their feet.

If the fighter gets knocked down from a good hit and creates an opening to the magic-user what should the cleric do? Heal the fighter? Block the enemies from getting to the wizards? While it is a tactical choice, the random range makes it more dramatic in my opinion than leveraging which power he should use.

That said there are some basic tactics like fighting defensivley or full attack which modify your ability to hit and be hit. Polearms behind a shieldwall is very viable in HMb. And from what I see most monsters fall from Trauma as opposed to losing all their hitpoint, so sending the Thief out to coup de grace them (which he can do in 3sec instead of 10) may be a good idea, but will he be exposed? Or will he pocket any treasure?

Also, I'd imagine a lot more things will be available in Advanced (like fighting with 2 weapons, etc..)


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## theemrys (Jun 30, 2009)

Basic is still pretty basic.. but there are some tactical moves...   (I've read it but not had time to play out a combat yet so actual play may vary some...   )

Now, weapon choice during a combat can matter and isn't just on the "build" side, as you might switch party way through.  Also, there is a "hold at bay" option where if you have a longer reach you can keep your opponent from getting withing striking range of you.  They can attack the weapon to knock it aside and move in, but it does slow them down some.  Very handy for a Mage who uses a quarterstaff (with a 7 or 8' reach IIRC).  

Also, your defense die changes depending on how many opponents are there and where they are positioned... you only get your D20 for your front 3 opponents... and if someone gets behind you, you only get a D8 to defend... and you'd better hope it's not the thief.   

What I also feel helps it seem a bit more "tactical" is that with the count-up initiative system, you can change your actions and "reset" your clock to react as things change... so if you're charging in and someone sets a spear, you can decide if you want to slow down... continue... try and change direction... if you're moving into attack and suddenly see a spell caster starting to cast, you can change direction to move for cover, etc.  Also, doing actions to deter an intelligent opponent can also be useful.  Nothing like having an archer draw his bow so that the enemy cower behind their sheilds for cover so that your battle axe wielding dwarf (who's not so fast on his feet) can get in a bit closer to the attack... 

As others have mentioned though, there are a lot more options planned for AHM which I'm sure will spice it up even more (like detail crit tables).


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## Thondor (Jun 30, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> Illustrated combat example:
> 
> Kenzer & Company Discussion Forums




Hmmm, this link doesn't work for me. I even registered in their forums and it now says that I don't have enough 'priviledge'. Ah well. 

I wonder if there are any interesting reviews up yet.


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## theemrys (Jun 30, 2009)

Thondor said:


> Hmmm, this link doesn't work for me. I even registered in their forums and it now says that I don't have enough 'priviledge'. Ah well.
> 
> I wonder if there are any interesting reviews up yet.




Strange... still works for me....


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## mhensley (Jun 30, 2009)

Thondor said:


> Hmmm, this link doesn't work for me. I even registered in their forums and it now says that I don't have enough 'priviledge'. Ah well.
> 
> I wonder if there are any interesting reviews up yet.




Try this link-

http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/HMb/HMb_combat_example.pdf


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## Nebulous (Jul 1, 2009)

Hmm.  I don't know now after reading that combat example, it was really number crunchy. Lots of little things to remember, and i don't even want to think about how slow this will drag with a bunch of new players. 

Having more special maneuvers would spice it up, but it will also be more to remember.  I'll still definitely get the core book and roll up some characters.


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## Nebulous (Jul 1, 2009)

And what's the best way to track the "count up" initiative?  I didn't quite understand how and when people could attack, it seemed based on first contact and weapon length, and later on their speed.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 1, 2009)

Nebulous said:


> And what's the best way to track the "count up" initiative?  I didn't quite understand how and when people could attack, it seemed based on first contact and weapon length, and later on their speed.




Initiative doesn't work much differently than in D&D and most other games where you have a 10-count round.  You just don't stop at 10.  A sheet of scratch paper tends to work for our GMs, at most.  Players should just be able to add in their heads, since they're only keeping track of one character - or on scratch paper if necessary.

Once two combatants come into melee with each other, they can attack.  Whoever has the best reach attacks first, then the other person can attack on the next second.  After your first attack, you add your weapon speed to bring back your weapon and strike again.  

So if you attack on second 4, and your speed is 8, you attack again on 12.

Or you can stop your attack in mid-stream (say on second 8) and start something else.

The combat example makes even more sense if you read the rules first.


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## Nebulous (Jul 1, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> The combat example makes even more sense if you read the rules first.




Yes, i imagine that would greatly help.  What would happen if 4 goblins close on you at once, but you have reach against them?


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## Falstaff (Jul 1, 2009)

Nebulous said:


> Yes, i imagine that would greatly help.  What would happen if 4 goblins close on you at once, but you have reach against them?




Well, you're in a tight spot if your character has 4 goblins closing in on you. You would most likely have reach over the small goblins, meaning you would attack first once within melee range. But, on the following second, all four goblins get to attack you. The good news is that you get to make a defense roll against each attack. However, one of the goblins might get an advantage if he attacks you from the rear or sides. For example, instead of rolling a d20 for defense, you'd only roll a d12p (or maybe a d8p if attacked from the rear).

Getting surrounded by multiple opponents in HMb is a good way to spend the rest of the session rolling up a new character.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 1, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> Getting surrounded by multiple opponents in HMb is a good way to spend the rest of the session rolling up a new character.




Fortunately, we've just uploaded the Quick-Start rules from the book as a free PDF download on our HackMaster Basic web page.  (These are not the full character creation rules, but an abbreviated and modified version to help you roll up a character faster.)

There are also other free PDF downloads, including the character sheet, on that page.


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## Agamon (Jul 1, 2009)

mhensley said:


> I've played every version of D&D and haven't seen a whole lot of this tactic thing you speak of.  I mean other than moving to set up a flank or a rogue trying to get a sneak attack.  All of that is in HM as well.  More advanced combat maneuvers are promised to be in AHM.




I meant 4e.  3e is very tactical in build, too.  But one of the complaints directed towards 4e is that it's a very tactical game, where it's a good idea tha the players all work together.

That said, I can see the tactics in HMb.  The combat options are there, for sure.


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## Ghost_of_Vortigern (Jul 1, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> Fortunately, we've just uploaded the Quick-Start rules from the book as a free PDF download on our HackMaster Basic web page.  (These are not the full character creation rules, but an abbreviated and modified version to help you roll up a character faster.)
> 
> There are also other free PDF downloads, including the character sheet, on that page.




As of this reply, the link to the Quicklink Guide is broken, Mark.

For those interested, the PDF can be found here.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 1, 2009)

Ghost_of_Vortigern said:


> As of this reply, the link to the Quicklink Guide is broken, Mark.
> 
> For those interested, the PDF can be found here.




You're too fast for me, GoV.   It was down for a few minutes but is fixed now.


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## Ghost_of_Vortigern (Jul 2, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> You're too fast for me, GoV.   It was down for a few minutes but is fixed now.




Looks good, Mark.  Thanks!


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## Nikosandros (Jul 2, 2009)

I've been eagerly reading the rules in the past couple of days and next Tuesday, I should run a session.

So far I've noticed a couple of negative things (IMHO, naturally).

1) I'm a bit surprised that on a successful defense by a shield user, the shield is always hit. I can see that it would be the most likely outcome, but sometime the attacker would miss completely and other times the attack would be parried by the defender.

2) While the idea of having quirk and flaws in order to give some depth to the characters is nice, I really don't like the implementation. The limited list gives results unfitting for many character concepts.


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## Falstaff (Jul 2, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> I've been eagerly reading the rules in the past couple of days and next Tuesday, I should run a session.
> 
> So far I've noticed a couple of negative things (IMHO, naturally).
> 
> ...




Well, the attacker can still sometimes miss completely even if his opponent is wielding a shield; see page 114, Misses & Fumbles.

You can leave the Quirks & Flaws out and it won't affect the game that much. The player will have one less category to earn Honor, but that just means he'll have to work harder for the other three.


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## mhensley (Jul 2, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> Well, the attacker can still sometimes miss completely even if his opponent is wielding a shield; see page 114, Misses & Fumbles.
> 
> You can leave the Quirks & Flaws out and it won't affect the game that much. The player will have one less category to earn Honor, but that just means he'll have to work harder for the other three.




I find it entertaining that you could miss with every attack and still manage to bludgeon your opponent to death by hitting his shield.  See, it's just like 4e with its powers that do damage on a miss except this actually makes sense and you can do it all day.  

Expect the Q&F's to be much expanded in Advanced.


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## Particle_Man (Jul 2, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> Well, you're in a tight spot if your character has 4 goblins closing in on you. You would most likely have reach over the small goblins, meaning you would attack first once within melee range.




Would that be 4 attacks (one per goblin) or 1 attack?  The former puts me in mind of Inigo Montoya polishing off the 4 mooks before taking on the 6 fingered man.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 2, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> Well, the attacker can still sometimes miss completely even if his opponent is wielding a shield; see page 114, Misses & Fumbles.




True.  If you're wielding a shield, it's expected that you're using it to block attacks.  Adding a big round target to yourself also means there's 'more of you to hit.'


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 2, 2009)

Particle_Man said:


> Would that be 4 attacks (one per goblin) or 1 attack?  The former puts me in mind of Inigo Montoya polishing off the 4 mooks before taking on the 6 fingered man.




One attack against a single goblin.  You can't attack four goblins a second.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 2, 2009)

FYI, I've added a new Index PDF to the list of downloads on the HackMaster Basic page, for those who want it.


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## Ghost_of_Vortigern (Jul 2, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> While the idea of having quirk and flaws in order to give some depth to the characters is nice, I really don't like the implementation. The limited list gives results unfitting for many character concepts.




IIRC, David Kenzer said an unofficial rule is that you can skip quirks and flaws during character creation for a penalty of 10BP.

(Source.)


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## Particle_Man (Jul 3, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> One attack against a single goblin.  You can't attack four goblins a second.




Well in that case, it would indeed be bad to be charged by 4 goblins at once.  At best you would kill one with a blow and then still have three on one odds against you.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jul 3, 2009)

So, for those of you who have it (my LGS hasn't gotten theirs yet from Diamon [?] I think), is Basic playable as a full game? 

Also, is all of the interior art re-used stuff from previous HackMaster stuff? Normally that would bother me, but for a thick book that is sell MSRP for $20 it's not that big of a deal.

Are there coupons?

A sample adventure?

Tokens (similar to the ones used in the combat demos)?

But most importantly, is it fun?


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## Nikosandros (Jul 3, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> So, for those of you who have it (my LGS hasn't gotten theirs yet from Diamon [?] I think), is Basic playable as a full game?



Yes, it is playable.



> Also, is all of the interior art re-used stuff from previous HackMaster stuff? Normally that would bother me, but for a thick book that is sell MSRP for $20 it's not that big of a deal.



I don't think so, but I'm not sure. The other books are in storage right now.


> Are there coupons?



No.



> A sample adventure?



Unfortunately, no... I would have preferred it in place of the dice appendix.



> Tokens (similar to the ones used in the combat demos)?



No.



> But most importantly, is it fun?



Looks like, but I have yet to run it.


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## Agamon (Jul 3, 2009)

There's some art from HM4 and KotDT, but like you say, that's not so bad.  And yeah. it's playable and looks like fun, I'm going to try it this weekend.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jul 3, 2009)

I guess I'm just excited to have something to be excited about. Since the debut of 4e, I haven't really made any non-4e RPG purchases other than OOP material.


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## Fu-Man Chu (Jul 4, 2009)

*Initiative Tracker*



Agamon said:


> Yeah, I kinda got how it worked, just wondering how tracking all these upcoming actions would work.  I suppose the players would each know what second their action happens and the GM keeps track of the monsters.  Maybe tracking it on a board or paper might be more work than it's worth.




I created this Initiative tracker several years ago for use in my AD&D games where I used a continuous Intiative system: http://andrewlchang.com/RPG/Files/HM Initiative Tracker.pdf With HackMaster Basic going to a continuous initiative system, I thought it might be a useful tool for you all. Especially since I keep seeing that a recurring question is how people keep track of Init.

The way I used this was I laid a printed copy in a protective sheet on the battlemat. Each PC placed a figure (or die) on the number they were to go on next, and I did likewise for each opponent. I would then use another “Initiative Die” representing the current count onto the sheet. When the Initiative Die got to a square with a PC or opponent, the action would resolve.

This way, everyone knew who was going next and at what point – and if the PC missed his action, well, they were pre-occupied during the combat and simply had to act whereever the die current was! (No time-turner here!)
In some combats against monsters which the PC’s might not know the signs of when they could strike again, I would occasionally keep another copy of the Intiative Tracker behind my GM screen and track the creature opponent secretly…
Hope this helps!

-Andrew, aka Fu-Man Chu on the KenzerCo boards. (RPGAndrew@Gmail.com)


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## Agamon (Jul 4, 2009)

Very cool, Fu, I may give that a shot.

In the meantime, I have something to share that I threw together.  In the absence of a GM screen, I made an excel sheet to track PC/monster stats, actions and count along with some of the more pertinent tables from the combat chapter.  I'll be updating this as I go, but this is what I've got for now.

View attachment Combat Board_1.02.xls


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2009)

I'd make the players track their own Initiative - the GM has enough to worry about.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 10, 2009)

There's now a new FREE adventure PDF for HackMaster Basic (White Palette, Ivory Horns) on our online store, by the way...


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## Nikosandros (Jul 10, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> There's now a new FREE adventure PDF for HackMaster Basic (White Palette, Ivory Horns) on our online store, by the way...



Cool, that's a nice move.

BTW, is it normal that the status of the "order" for this free PDF is listed as pending while waiting for payment confirmation?


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## Agamon (Jul 10, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> Cool, that's a nice move.
> 
> BTW, is it normal that the status of the "order" for this free PDF is listed as pending while waiting for payment confirmation?




There's an alt link on that page that takes you directly to the pdf without ordering it.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jul 11, 2009)

Mark Plemmons said:


> There's now a new FREE adventure PDF for HackMaster Basic (White Palette, Ivory Horns) on our online store, by the way...




Very cool... and speaking of adventures, what's this I hear of some kind of Keep on the Borderlands style module in the works?

I'm still waiting for the dern-blasted distributors to DISTRIBUTE my copy of the HMb.


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## JollyRB (Jul 11, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> Very cool... and speaking of adventures, what's this I hear of some kind of Keep on the Borderlands style module in the works?
> 
> I'm still waiting for the dern-blasted distributors to DISTRIBUTE my copy of the HMb.




Frandor's Keep comes out next month (knock wood). A mini campaign setting with several adventures bundled into one book.

I'm told HMb sold out in distribution rather quickly.  I think demand caught them off guard a bit.  We've shipped more books but it may take a while to filter down. Keep checking with your distributors.  They should have it back in stock soon. If not give us a nudge.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jul 11, 2009)

JollyRB said:


> Frandor's Keep comes out next month (knock wood). A mini campaign setting with several adventures bundled into one book.
> 
> I'm told HMb sold out in distribution rather quickly.  I think demand caught them off guard a bit.  We've shipped more books but it may take a while to filter down. Keep checking with your distributors.  They should have it back in stock soon. If not give us a nudge.




Cool. I didn't know it was a mini-campaign. I'm running my newbs through Quest For the Unknown right now, and I'm planning on switching over to HMb when I get it, so that's good news. 

I just hope the distribution issue gets solved soon. I know my local dude ordered it through Alliance/Diamond (whatever it is) at least a week before it's official release date.

Thanks for the post! And I've really been enjoying KotDT this past year. I need to finally sit down and write a letter saying what I'm liking about it.


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## JollyRB (Jul 11, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> just hope the distribution issue gets solved soon. I know my local dude ordered it through Alliance/Diamond (whatever it is) at least a week before it's official release date.




Hmmm.. not sure what the issue could be. We've been filling orders as fast as they come in. Although I know there was an issue with Alliance on their first shipment with the USPS drop kicking a few boxes and damaging the books to hell. THat might have delayed a few orders while a replacement shipment went out.


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## JollyRB (Jul 11, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> Thanks for the post! And I've really been enjoying KotDT this past year. I need to finally sit down and write a letter saying what I'm liking about it.




Ah, thanks for that. Been having a LOT of fun with the strips lately. Glad you're enjoying them.


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## Agamon (Jul 11, 2009)

JollyRB said:


> Ah, thanks for that. Been having a LOT of fun with the strips lately. Glad you're enjoying them.




I've actually just started a re-read (man, they fill a whole comic box now).  Got TftV #1 with me as I type, in fact.


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## qstor (Jul 17, 2009)

I actually ordered Basic Hackmaster to play the Kalamar games at GenCon.

It looked like OD&D from what I saw in the previews with more race & class flexibility like for instance you can play a dwarven wizard.

Mike


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