# I don't think the DCU is that bad...



## Hussar (May 27, 2017)

Ok, put down those rotten fruit baskets.  Just hear me out.  Out of boredom over the Netflix Japan offerings, I went back and started rewatching a couple of movies.  I started out with the old Green Lantern movie (yes, I was that bored).

Funny thing is, I didn't think it was that bad.  Now, out of the gate, I've never been a DC fan so my exposure to Green Lantern was largely from TV - Justice League and a few other odds and sods.  But, I thought the movie was nowhere near as bad as people say.  It was a fun couple of hours.  High art?  Oh, hell no.  But, it was fun, made me giggle, had some pretty cool scenes and was a pretty decent superhero origin movie.  I'm not sure what all the angst is about.

Anyway, later on, I watched the extended Batman Vs Superman.  Now, again, I didn't see the theatrical version, only the longer one.  And, I thought it was pretty good.  Yeah, a bit more dark than it needed to be and I was pretty surprised to see Batman whacking bad guys, but, hey, it's not like it's the first time.  Again, a fun time was had.  Maybe I just have really low standards.  That's entirely possible.

Lastly, I just watched Suicide Squad this week.  And, again, I don't see what the problem is.  Fun movie.  Some seriously funny lines and pretty decent action flick.  What's the problem? 

Am I alone here?  I really don't think these movies are half as bad as people have dogpiled onto them.


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## ccs (May 27, 2017)

Hussar said:


> Am I alone here?  I really don't think these movies are half as bad as people have dogpiled onto them.




Hmm.  Other than the steaming pile that is BvS I think 1/2 as bad is pretty accurate.
As bad as everyone says?  No.
Anywhere near the quality of the MCU?  Not even close.
So 1/2.


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## Hussar (May 27, 2017)

ccs said:


> Hmm.  Other than the steaming pile that is BvS I think 1/2 as bad is pretty accurate.
> As bad as everyone says?  No.
> Anywhere near the quality of the MCU?  Not even close.
> So 1/2.




See, that's the thing though.  I was thinking about this and that thought occurred to me too.  DCU looks bad by comparison.  Only thing is, I'm not sure that holds.  There's a lot of pretty mediocre MCU movies.  Sure, Iron Man was fantastic.  Great movie.  But, Iron Man 3?  That was pretty bad.  The two Thor movies are, IMO, entirely forgettable.  We spend 2/3rds of the first one with Thor not actually being Thor and sitting around in a coffee shop bemoaning the fact that he isn't Thor.  Captain America was great.  But (again, IMO) Winter Soldier was... boring?  Again, largely forgettable.  Let's not forget Ed Norton's The Incredible Hulk.  Not exactly covering the series in glory.  

And, if we want to get technical about it, there's still the X-Men movies (very hit and miss) and the Spider Man movies (again, completely hit or miss).  I know they aren't MCU movies, but, kinda sorta?

While there have been stellar MCU movies (and there certainly haven't been any stellar DCU movies) there's been more than a few movies that have largely been carried by the brand.  

Maybe that's the difference.  MCU movies, even the meh ones, are still buoyed up by the great MCU movies.  Whereas DCU just hasn't bought that kind of goodwill by having a really good DCU movie.

OTOH, DCU on the small screen is kicking ass and taking names.


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## Tonguez (May 27, 2017)

Green Lantern is okay as a movie, not great but fine in a dumb fantasy way

BS (Theatrical) was an incoherent mess that tried to stuff in too much and thus becomes bloated (the Flash back and email were dumb). in BS Superman is given no motivation and so becomes a plot device and Luthors plan has no logical scheme. As a Batman movie BS works okay, and Wonder Womans interactions were good too. 
The BvS (Extended) cut improves things by explaining Supermans actions in Africa and by showing Clarks work as a journalist makes his animosity to the Bat a bit more believable.

go and watch Sinister Squad, the knock-off parody from The Asylum and realise that it is a better film than Suicide Squad where characters are better developed and the plot actually makes more sense. Suicide Squad is all flash without substance, wasteful of its premise, has a ridiculous villain doing the hula and bad guys who never do bad things and are only bad because we kept being told they are bad. Perhaps if Marvel didn't exist, the DC movies would have coped better but audiences have seen what the big budget studios can produce and so the standard is set.

Everything Marvel has done - including Thor (which was boring), The Hulk and X-Men movies (which I personally didn't enjoy) has justified the notion of being a big budget hollywood movie. In comparison BS took the worlds two most iconic heroes and gave us an angsty kick in the nuts and with suicide squad served up a  bad parody.

I am hoping that Wonder Woman is enjoyable but we will see...


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## Joker (May 27, 2017)

The MCU movies are solid in that they found a formula that works and tick most of the boxes every time. They're not particularly challenging or interesting movies, kind of bland, but it's easy to watch because it makes everything clear to the audience.
Man of Steel, BvS and Suicide Squad all have the same basic problem. The fail to make scenes connect in a movie in a really intelligible way. Snyder's movies all have very beautiful shots but poor structure in and between scenes.
Not to sound pretentious but there's a certain grammar in the visual language of films. There are "rules" to making a film understandable for a neutral viewer. You can subvert and invert these rules but for the most part you follow them if you want your movie to be accessible.

That said, I enjoyed MoS and BvS more than most of the MCU films, with the exception of Winter Soldier and a lot of Civil War. I prefer the action, music and emotion in those DCU films.


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## Ed Laprade (May 27, 2017)

Tonguez said:


> I am hoping that Wonder Woman is enjoyable but we will see...



The trailers for WW look good, but that doesn't mean a lot. However, the German general who seems to be the main villain obviously isn't what he seems... because he doesn't have a Magnificent Mustache! (All the generals in WWI, on both sides, had them.)


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## ccs (May 27, 2017)

Ed Laprade said:


> The trailers for WW look good, but that doesn't mean a lot. However, the German general who seems to be the main villain obviously isn't what he seems... because he doesn't have a Magnificent Mustache! (All the generals in WWI, on both sides, had them.)




Well, I'd imagine that the main villain is Ares.


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## Kramodlog (May 28, 2017)

Hussar said:


> Lastly, I just watched Suicide Squad this week.  And, again, I don't see what the problem is.  Fun movie.  Some seriously funny lines and pretty decent action flick.  What's the problem?



Not funny. Boring action scenes. Muddle plot. Lame dialogues. Terrible editing. The reshoot shows. Bland vilain. We do not care about the stakes. Swirly CGI thing that is dangerous and will kill everyone we already scene many times. To many characters. Super charactes who aren't super and just shoot guns. And a boomerang. The joker is garbage.


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## cmad1977 (May 28, 2017)

Suicide squad is an abysmal and embarrassing abomination of filmmaking/editing/writing. 
The other movies are fine but could have been much better. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## billd91 (May 30, 2017)

Hussar said:


> Captain America was great.  But (again, IMO) Winter Soldier was... boring?  Again, largely forgettable.




Well, now I know you're insane. That's one of the MCU's best offerings.

It's fine that you like the DCU stuff, I've been lukewarm on them at best. I'm hoping Wonder Woman turns out OK because so much leading up to it has been really disappointing. If WW fails to deliver for me, I'm not even bothering with the JLA.


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## Ryujin (May 30, 2017)

Hussar said:


> See, that's the thing though.  I was thinking about this and that thought occurred to me too.  DCU looks bad by comparison.  Only thing is, I'm not sure that holds.  There's a lot of pretty mediocre MCU movies.  Sure, Iron Man was fantastic.  Great movie.  But, Iron Man 3?  That was pretty bad.  The two Thor movies are, IMO, entirely forgettable.  We spend 2/3rds of the first one with Thor not actually being Thor and sitting around in a coffee shop bemoaning the fact that he isn't Thor.  Captain America was great.  But (again, IMO) Winter Soldier was... boring?  Again, largely forgettable.  Let's not forget Ed Norton's The Incredible Hulk.  Not exactly covering the series in glory.
> 
> And, if we want to get technical about it, there's still the X-Men movies (very hit and miss) and the Spider Man movies (again, completely hit or miss).  I know they aren't MCU movies, but, kinda sorta?
> 
> ...




Where the Captain America movies are concerned, in my experience, most people seem to have a preference opposite to your own.  Not that it means anything, though, as we all have our preferences.

The big difference between the MCU and the DCCU seems to be one of tone. Tone appropriate, or not appropriate, to the source material. The MCU is full-on three colour comic in tone. The DCCU is grim-dark graphic novel in tone and that would be fine, if they were making movies about different properties. It could have worked for "Suicide Squad" but that movie had other failings (making it the Harley Quinn and Will Smith in Deadshot's costume show; the abortion that was Leto's Joker...). If they hold that tone with a property like "Justice League Dark" they might be onto something. Or if they used the same tone in some of the "Dark Horse Presents" products, then maybe that would work. 

What they need to do, is somehow capture the spirit of the comics. The hopefulness that they engender. They don't have to mimic Marvel's roadmap to do this, nor should they, but they need to find a more appropriate FEEL to their movies. As you said, they're kicking arse in the animated realm. How do they do it? The way that I just said.


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## Kaodi (May 31, 2017)

Well, the reviews are coming out of embargo and it seems the DC Cinematic Universe just got about 10x better. 97% Fresh. I hope to see it on Sunday.


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## Istbor (May 31, 2017)

I am just NOT interested in Superman.  For me, he has to be the most boring superhero around.  Give me more Batman.  A person with flaws and mortality, and only has the gadgets and skill to rely on.  A plethora of ridiculous powers to me, is not impressive. 

That is what somewhat kills the DCU for me. Since Superman is such a central figure. Wonder woman on the other hand look great, and feels far more fresh and exciting (again, to me at least).


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## Morrus (May 31, 2017)

I'm a fan of the DCU. It has its flaws, but I like the mythic way it differentiates itself from the Marvel universe. The biggest mistake they could make would be adopting the Marvel quip-a-minute formula. Let Marvel do the action comedies well, and try and do drama instead.


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## Istbor (May 31, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I'm a fan of the DCU. It has its flaws, but I like the mythic way it differentiates itself from the Marvel universe. The biggest mistake they could make would be adopting the Marvel quip-a-minute formula. Let Marvel do the action comedies well, and try and do drama instead.




I won't argue there.  I like that they at least feel distinct.  Having an MCU and then an MCU lite would be terrible.  I love a good grim and dark tale.


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## Ryujin (Jun 1, 2017)

Istbor said:


> I won't argue there.  I like that they at least feel distinct.  Having an MCU and then an MCU lite would be terrible.  I love a good grim and dark tale.




Then you might be happier with other DC properties, if they did them in the grim-dark style of the current movies. Characters like Deadman, The Creeper, The Phantom Stranger, Swamp Thing (done right, not like in the '80s when everything was camp). Certain Batman cycles would certainly qualify too.


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## Istbor (Jun 1, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> Then you might be happier with other DC properties, if they did them in the grim-dark style of the current movies. Characters like Deadman, The Creeper, The Phantom Stranger, Swamp Thing (done right, not like in the '80s when everything was camp). Certain Batman cycles would certainly qualify too.




Yep.  And I have enjoyed some of them.  Mostly the darker Batman flicks. I think also, with DCU, there isn't as much name recognition as with other comics. For me at least.  My father collected comics, so I had a lot of time to read a wide variety, and I just can't remember that many DCU heroes. *shrug*


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## Morrus (Jun 1, 2017)

Istbor said:


> Yep.  And I have enjoyed some of them.  Mostly the darker Batman flicks. I think also, with DCU, there isn't as much name recognition as with other comics. For me at least.  My father collected comics, so I had a lot of time to read a wide variety, and I just can't remember that many DCU heroes. *shrug*




Spider-man, Hulk, and the Fantastic 4 would have been my sum total of Marvel knowledge before the movies told me about them. Now it seems weird that once I didn't know who Iron Man was!

DC-wise, my knowledge is broader - Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Green Arrow... I definitely read more DC comics as a kid!


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## Ryujin (Jun 1, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Spider-man, Hulk, and the Fantastic 4 would have been my sum total of Marvel knowledge before the movies told me about them. Now it seems weird that once I didn't know who Iron Man was!
> 
> DC-wise, my knowledge is broader - Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Green Arrow... I definitely read more DC comics as a kid!




I split myself fairly evenly between the two. Add to that some more esoteric stuff Like "Captain Canuck" from the '70s (currently making a bit of a resurgence in online video form) and the "Archie" comics which were the only thing I could find on cottage trips. I had stacks of DC "100 page Super Specials", some $0.10 and $0.12 face value Batman comics and $0.15 "Sergeant Fury and his Howling Commandos" until my younger brother decided to secretly sell them off for LESS than face value, to an unscrupulous flea market vendor.


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## Istbor (Jun 1, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Spider-man, Hulk, and the Fantastic 4 would have been my sum total of Marvel knowledge before the movies told me about them. Now it seems weird that once I didn't know who Iron Man was!
> 
> DC-wise, my knowledge is broader - Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Green Arrow... I definitely read more DC comics as a kid!




It actually took me a while to realize the Fantastic 4 were Marvel.  Though I knew of Iron Man and Thor, as well as Spider-man, Captain America,  and the Hulk (who I do not enjoy).  I don't know who Martian Manhunter is however.


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## Tonguez (Jun 1, 2017)

Istbor said:


> It actually took me a while to realize the Fantastic 4 were Marvel.  Though I knew of Iron Man and Thor, as well as Spider-man, Captain America,  and the Hulk (who I do not enjoy).  I don't know who Martian Manhunter is however.




It long been established that DC's Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and Flash are the most famous Comic superheroes and the only 'Golden Age' heroes who gained lasting recognition. Indeed Superman and Batman have become so iconic that their cultural presence extends beyond comics into the realm of modern myth, that was one reason why BvS was so widely panned, people had big expectations.

DCs characters are mythic in their scope, Superman is the Messiah sent from higher powers to save the earth, Batman is reluctant avenger, the one man who must stand against injustice,Wonder Women is a goddess made flesh and The Flash is the fastest man alive.

Marvels characters in contrast are just people who get lucky, the teenage who was bit by a spider, the scientist transformed into a monster, the righteous soldier, man in a iron suit, a whole slew of oppressed mutants. Of these properties only The Hulk and Spiderman have joined the list of recognisable comic tropes during the 1960's and that for most of the public is it.

Before the MCU you'd probably have more people who knew who the Phantom (Ghost Who Walks) and Mandrake were than knew about Ironman or Black Widow. Marvels greatest success is that they were able to take second tier characters and repackage them for movie going audiences.

DC needs to play up its mythic nature but to do so the directors need to understand the mythic tropes inherent to their characters. Batman as dark avenger works in a grim world, Wonder Woman appears to have found her fit too, the challenge is Superman and his persecuted messiah complex


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## Ryujin (Jun 1, 2017)

Istbor said:


> It actually took me a while to realize the Fantastic 4 were Marvel.  Though I knew of Iron Man and Thor, as well as Spider-man, Captain America,  and the Hulk (who I do not enjoy).  I don't know who Martian Manhunter is however.




I was rather surprised to find out, through various media, that Captain America wasn't a well known Marvel character prior to the movies. He was one of my favourite characters growing up, which I suppose is only normal for a kid who was smaller and weaker than most.

The Hulk, apart from the Avengers movies, hasn't been done very well in my opinion.

Martian Manhunter is an interesting character. He can change shape, change his density to the point that he can pass through solid objects, and has telepathic abilities. He is the last remaining Green Martian, the rest of his race having been slaughtered by the more warlike White Martians. His major weakness is fire. There has been some suggestion that he is more powerful than Superman, at least once stated by Superman himself.

Another DC that I rather like, who has been given short shrift, is Doctor Fate. The only recent appearance that I can remember, from a live action series, was when his helmet was sitting on a table in John Constantine's lair during the short-lived series.


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## Hussar (Jun 2, 2017)

I have to admit, 99% of my DC knowledge comes from TV and mostly the animated stuff.  It's funny, but, I can't honestly remember when there wasn't a DC character on TV in some form or another.  Going back a while to Lois and Clark, and even before that, there was a short lived live action Flash series (I might be wrong in the timeline there, that's a LONG time ago).  But, on the small screen at least, DC has been prodding buttock and taking names.

Flip around to the big screen and it's pretty much the opposite.  Marvel has been the go to for superhero movies for, what, twenty years now?  Sure, we had a couple of good Superman movies in the 70's and 80's and the first couple of Batman movies, but, it took Marvel products to make superhero movies a THING.  (no pun intended).

I just really think that people are far too hard on the DCU movies.  I honestly didn't think Suicide Squad was that bad.  It was a fun action movie.  Now, my only knowledge of Suicide Squad comes form the cartoons - they featured in an animated movie (?), somewhere or other anyway.  And my only knowledge of any of the characters is from cartoons.  Harley Quinn?  Yup, check, that's the same as the one I saw in Batman cartoons.  Deadshot?  Only saw him in Arrow.  Seems like a decent character.  Amanda Waller?  Yup, nailed that one.  (and, as hot as the Amanda Waller actress is in Arrow, that's NOT what I consider to be Amanda Waller)

So, again, not seeing the issue.  But, I do realize that I'm whistling in the dark here.  That movie got crucified.  And I really don't understand why.


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## Ryujin (Jun 2, 2017)

Hussar said:


> I have to admit, 99% of my DC knowledge comes from TV and mostly the animated stuff.  It's funny, but, I can't honestly remember when there wasn't a DC character on TV in some form or another.  Going back a while to Lois and Clark, and even before that, there was a short lived live action Flash series (I might be wrong in the timeline there, that's a LONG time ago).  But, on the small screen at least, DC has been prodding buttock and taking names.
> 
> Flip around to the big screen and it's pretty much the opposite.  Marvel has been the go to for superhero movies for, what, twenty years now?  Sure, we had a couple of good Superman movies in the 70's and 80's and the first couple of Batman movies, but, it took Marvel products to make superhero movies a THING.  (no pun intended).
> 
> ...




Yup, "The Flash" came before "Lois and Clark", and starred the guy who played Barry Allen's dad in the current "The Flash." The tried a couple of "Captain America" TV series too.

Any time that you try to adapt a much beloved property and don't stick to decades old canon, you're going to get heavy criticism from long time fans. Look at "Star Trek." Harley Quinn was a throw-away character from an animated piece who was so successful, that they wrapped her back into the comics. Deadshot was around for a while.


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## trappedslider (Jun 2, 2017)

remember this is where Marvel started 
[video=youtube;cs8rFsmhNTc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8rFsmhNTc[/video]


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## Ryujin (Jun 2, 2017)

And not long after.....

[video=youtube;FoF1B0GGcRA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoF1B0GGcRA[/video]


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## Tonguez (Jun 2, 2017)

[video=youtube;pX_yN4ONSZ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX_yN4ONSZ8[/video]

This is the first Marvel Movie 1977

(there was a Captain America serial in the 1940's but that was Timely comics)


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## trappedslider (Jun 2, 2017)

lol, you know honestly at this point i just want this bit to be done  in a live action movie...
[video=youtube;pMd4S-LkywI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMd4S-LkywI[/video]


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## ccs (Jun 2, 2017)

Hussar said:


> I have to admit, 99% of my DC knowledge comes from TV and mostly the animated stuff.  It's funny, but, I can't honestly remember when there wasn't a DC character on TV in some form or another.  Going back a while to Lois and Clark, and even before that, there was a short lived live action Flash series (I might be wrong in the timeline there, that's a LONG time ago).  But, on the small screen at least, DC has been prodding buttock and taking names.




Oh DC has had a TV presence LONG before that.
1950s - Superman (George Reeve)
1960s - Batman (Adam West)
1970s - Wonder Woman (Linda Carter).  And on Sat. Mornings Captain Marvel/Shazam & then Isis as a spin-off.
1980s - a short lived Superboy series.
1990s - The Flash, then Lois & Clark.
2ks - Smallville, Birds of Prey, & of course the current batch - Arrow, Flash, Legends, Supergirl, Constantine, Black Lightning (coming soon), Gotham, & izombie (technically it's a DC/Vertigo title).

And that's not counting DCs animation arm.  They've been a continuing presence since the 60s.


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## ccs (Jun 2, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> And not long after.....
> 
> [video=youtube;FoF1B0GGcRA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoF1B0GGcRA[/video]




Sadly that's the best F4 put on screen yet. 
Barring animation anyways.


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## Ryujin (Jun 2, 2017)

ccs said:


> Oh DC has had a TV presence LONG before that.
> 1950s - Superman (George Reeve)
> 1960s - Batman (Adam West)
> 1970s - Wonder Woman (Linda Carter).  And on Sat. Mornings Captain Marvel/Shazam & then Isis as a spin-off.
> ...




Before that even. Leaving aside the radio serials there was a Batman movie serial in 1943, loaded with wartime propaganda.

[video=youtube;lXcHF2-fDS8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXcHF2-fDS8[/video]


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## Ryujin (Jun 2, 2017)

ccs said:


> Sadly that's the best F4 put on screen yet.
> Barring animation anyways.




The most true to the original story, at any rate.


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## trappedslider (Jun 2, 2017)

Hussar said:


> And my only knowledge of any of the characters is from cartoons.  Harley Quinn?  Yup, check, that's the same as the one I saw in Batman cartoons.  Deadshot?  Only saw him in Arrow.  Seems like a decent character.  Amanda Waller?  Yup, nailed that one.  (and, as hot as the Amanda Waller actress is in Arrow, that's NOT what I consider to be Amanda Waller)



Yeah CCH Pounder will always be Waller to me like  Kevin Conroy is the voice of batman.


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