# Elements of Magic(R) and 4 Color To Fantasy



## Archus (Dec 24, 2004)

I noticed in the Lyceian Arcana that Zidi Wheatling, the Halfling Titan returned as an Anima.  But the 4CtF version is vastly superior even with less character levels.  The LA version looks like they would fit in the power levels of a normal d20 fantasy game better.  

But I was wondering if anyone had ideas on using EoMR and 4CtF together?


----------



## RangerWickett (Dec 25, 2004)

I don't see what you think is superior with the FCTF build.  A few powers were switched out, like taking out darkvision and not having the extra lifting capacity, but that's just to keep the LA version more streamlined toward D&D.  FCTF was a super-hero book, so it could afford to stretch the rules a bit more, but EOM has already changed the magic system enough, I didn't want to go mucking about with lifting capacity and such.

Actually, I think the main difference is that old Zidi had 'mighty lifting,' and so counted as a Huge creature when wielding weapons.  In hindsight, mighty lifting was probably a bit undercosted.  *grin*

I really put the Anima into Lyceian Arcana because I thought it was a more elegant solution than how we originally wrote Four-Color to Fantasy.  Super powers are a lot like magic items, really.  Now, though, the 'magic items' are much more part of the character - part of her essence, not just something she owns.


----------



## Archus (Dec 25, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I don't see what you think is superior with the FCTF build.  A few powers were switched out, like taking out darkvision and not having the extra lifting capacity, but that's just to keep the LA version more streamlined toward D&D.  FCTF was a super-hero book, so it could afford to stretch the rules a bit more, but EOM has already changed the magic system enough, I didn't want to go mucking about with lifting capacity and such.



I think the reason I thought she was less powerful was the difference between Activated and  Enduring anima powers and taking an unlimited # of uses.  Are Enduring powers permanent with no increase in MP cost but only effect the animist?  So you only take unlimited uses on an activated power so you can use it as often as you want?



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Actually, I think the main difference is that old Zidi had 'mighty lifting,' and so counted as a Huge creature when wielding weapons.  In hindsight, mighty lifting was probably a bit undercosted.  *grin*




Well since I'm pretty sure I misread the new Zidi, they are pretty comparable.  I think the old Zidi has a slight edge, but they are pretty close.

[Old Zidi Hero 8/Fighter 1]

Darkvision
3 Feats
+4 Con
+6 Natural Armor
+8 Strength
+5 Will Save
DR 5/Iron
Mighty Lifting
Rage (+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Wil, -2 AC)
6 Skill points
+6 Strength
+6 Lifting
Equivalent to +2 weapon

[New Zidi Anima 9/Fighter 4]

+2 Attack, Damage, Checks, Saves, Skills, Calm fear
+30 Move
+4 AC Deflection
DR 5/cold iron
+3 enhancement saves
+6 Con
+10 Strength



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I really put the Anima into Lyceian Arcana because I thought it was a more elegant solution than how we originally wrote Four-Color to Fantasy.  Super powers are a lot like magic items, really.  Now, though, the 'magic items' are much more part of the character - part of her essence, not just something she owns.



I really like the Anima, it has inspired a great many ideas.  This comes really close to having a class that can be used for characters becoming "monster" races more easily than Savage Species.

You could even take some of the ideas of gp for HP exchange in 4CtF and have people make sacrifices and perform rituals to gain power.  Maybe the feat requiring at least one level of the Anima class, and half the HP awards in AP using the 4CtF tables.

The anima class is very, very, cool.  Congrats Ryan.  Had the new Zidi wanted skill bonuses, it would have been easy.  

The only thing we don't have in EoMR is the ability to grant feats.  I've thought that you could have Infuse grant feats at a rate of 1 per 2 MP, but you would have to fill in all prerequisites with magic as well.  The required element could be based on element, if the feat mentions an attribute then elements that grant infuse bonuses to that attribute are required.  If the feat doesn't mention an attribute use any mental element for mental feats, charisma elements for social feats, and physical ements for combat/physical feats.

Any thoughts on what the cost would be to make them abilities that can't be supressed with anti-magic?  So they become a natural or extrordinary ability.


----------



## Archus (Dec 27, 2004)

A few questions/comments regarding using the Anima to "replace" the 4CtF Hero class.  I'm interested in allowing people to use the Anima class to become "monster" races.


If you wanted to make an Anima ability an Extraordinary instead of a Spell-Like or Supernatural ability (to represent natural abilities), how would you cost them?  I was thinking about doubling the cost.
I understand not allowing tranforming into a creature to be a Enduring anima power, but there are a few effects of Transform that wouldn't bother me as enduring:  Alter Age (to be younger than you should be), Change Size ("permanently" change your size), and Cosmetic Change (no harm in looking different).
How to do some powers like Immunity to Disease/Poison/Ageing?  I thought about allowing Abjure Nature to provide something like Energy Resistance for poison and disease ability damage and Transform Alter Age or Abjure Nature to resist aging.

The potential of EoMR has increased dramatically with the addition of LA.  Thanks Ryan.


----------



## RangerWickett (Dec 27, 2004)

Regarding granting feats through magic, I couldn't quite think of where they needed to go, spell list-wise.  

I do know, though, that the ability would be written so that X MP grants a +Y bonus to the number of feats you know.  Multiple spells don't grant stacking bonus feats.  That way you can't cast several spells to get several bonus feats.  If you want to have 3 bonus feats, you have to pay (pulling a number out of thin air) 3 MP.  

You need to have all the prerequisites feats in a feat chain, but you can ignore ability score and attack bonus prerequisites.  You can't grant magical feats this way.  If you wanted to grant yourself Whirlwind Attack, you'd need to grant Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, and Whirlwind Attack as a package; if you wanted to give Whirlwind Attack to someone who already had Spring Attack, you'd just have to grant Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack.  

Hmm.  Any suggestions for pricing that, and where to put it in the spell lists?


The anima was intended to be a magical class, so making the abilities extraordinary would require a bit of odd logic depending on the abilities.  I mean, some things obviously wouldn't quite make sense, like extraordinary ability to teleport.  But yeah, for the ability to ignore Spell Resistance and antimagic, I think doubling the cost is fair.


For Transform, I think age changing would be too powerful, since people could make 90 year old PCs who spend 9 anima points to be adults, keeping all their mental bonuses and avoiding physical penalties.  Cosmetic Change I guess would be fine, but I almost don't see the point in it.  Size change might not be broken, but I didn't want to risk it, since increasing reach is always powerful for warrior characters.

Immunity to aging is something that plays almost no effect in a typical game, but it should be very difficult to achieve, for the sake of storytelling.  Make it cost 25 MP.  *shrug*

Immunity to disease and poison would probably best be handled with some sort of permanent contingent cure disease or remove poison Heal effect.


----------



## Archus (Dec 27, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Hmm.  Any suggestions for pricing that, and where to put it in the spell lists?




I'd put them in the infuse lists.  You use any elements listed for the feat prerequsites.  If no attributes are listed use physical stat elements for combat and "physical" feats, charisma for social feats, and int or wiz for "mental feats". 

As for cost, I'd have it be 2 MP per Feat.  I like the stacking guidelines you mentioned.




			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> The anima was intended to be a magical class, so making the abilities extraordinary would require a bit of odd logic depending on the abilities.  I mean, some things obviously wouldn't quite make sense, like extraordinary ability to teleport.  But yeah, for the ability to ignore Spell Resistance and antimagic, I think doubling the cost is fair.




My intention was to only allow things that could be explained by natural ability to be taken as extraordinary.  My other option was to use 4CtF as well, but remove some things from the list that I want to keep as Anima abilities only.

Any thought on using EoMR and 4CtF together?  I still assert that in some ways the powers in 4CtF are better/cheaper than Anima abilites - since they default to being extraordinary abilites.  Also some things are cheaper in scale.  In one level you could get a +4 to Strength in 4CtF (6 Hero Points, min level 3) or +4 Strength in EoMR  (4 AP, min level 4).  The EoMR ability would be subseptable to anti-magic, but the power wouldn't be.  

Here are a few ideas I've got on using EoMR and 4CtF:

Drop the Anima Class and use 4CtF Hero class.  But would they outclass the EoMR spellcasters?  Might need to reduce number of hero points or increase some costs.
Have both the Anima and Hero class, but remove some purely magical abilities from the power list.  
Could combine the two classes.  Remove the "magical" abilities from the power list (like telepathy and such), but let Hero's buy 1 anima points for 2 hero points.
Keep the Hero and Animist exactly as they are.  I worry about the Hero outclassing the Animist.
Allow an animist to make some abilities Extraordinary by paying twice the cost and not using 4CtF at all.
Just use "normal" pc races but allow them to magically enhance themselves with anima powers and just abandon the idea of using the Hero class to build monster player races.
 
My main goal is to have some way for characters to "fairly" and "simply" make monster races.  I could live with normal races being enhanced with magical abilities from the Anima class, but if it would balance I'd llike people to be able to make trolls with a uniform mechanic instead of having to make a special racial class each time.

I've looked at BESM d20 which would allow for such shenanigins, but they have far to many BESMisms for my taste.  4CtF keeps a little more compatability of terms in my opinion.  I could just play Hero, but then I can't use all of the modules I have lying around and hero is a ton of math.  I could use ECL and Racial levels, but then you have to make one for each race and it is really guesswork.  I could use Mutants and Masterminds, but it isn't really compatable with d20 material either.

Sigh.

Any suggestions?



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> For Transform, I think age changing would be too powerful, since people could make 90 year old PCs who spend 9 anima points to be adults, keeping all their mental bonuses and avoiding physical penalties.  Cosmetic Change I guess would be fine, but I almost don't see the point in it.  Size change might not be broken, but I didn't want to risk it, since increasing reach is always powerful for warrior characters.




Cosmetic change would be to look like someone else.  But easily done with illusion.

I really don't mind players being unaging - since it won't really matter in the scope of my campaigns.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Immunity to aging is something that plays almost no effect in a typical game, but it should be very difficult to achieve, for the sake of storytelling.  Make it cost 25 MP.  *shrug*




Which is why I'd price it cheap.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Immunity to disease and poison would probably best be handled with some sort of permanent contingent cure disease or remove poison Heal effect.




Would it be allowable to take one of them as an Enduring anima ability?


----------



## Alzrius (Jan 2, 2005)

Just curious, whatever happened to _The Big Book of Super Powers_? Now that EoM seems pretty well taken care of, is that book back on the schedule, or was it dropped and I missed it?


----------



## RangerWickett (Jan 2, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Just curious, whatever happened to _The Big Book of Super Powers_? Now that EoM seems pretty well taken care of, is that book back on the schedule, or was it dropped and I missed it?




Egh.  I don't like going back and redoing things.  If I wasn't inspired enough to do it the first time, I probably won't be now either.  So no, there won't be any more FCTF material in the foreseeable future.


----------

