# Are Asians not allowed in Superhero Movies?



## Tonguez (Jul 21, 2015)

Okay so the title may be a bit more provocative than it needed to be but I've just learnt that Tilda Swinton has been cast as the Ancient One (aka the High Lama, the Mystic) the Tibetan Scorcerer who teaches Doctor Strange everything he knows.

I'm okay with the gender swap there, but I am concerned that - following in the footsteps of the Ben Kingsleys Mandarin and the live action depictions of Ras Al-Ghul by Liam Neeson and the Australian guy on Arrow - there seems to be a bit of whitewashing going on amongst Superhero Movies that removes important Asian roles.I don't think its deliberate of course, its probably more a systemic issue of casting agents who focus on the white actors they know. But its not as if there aren't a good few Asian actors available in Hollywood.

So what do you all think? are my concerns justifiable or am I looking for issues where none exist?What can be done to get more Asian actors into movie roles and can you think of any Asian actors that could have filled the role of the Ancient One as well as Tilda Swinton?


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## Morrus (Jul 21, 2015)

There have certainly been high profile changes from white to black actors, so I don't think it's an issue of whitewashing.  But yeah, Asians seem under-represented right now.  There's Agent May in AoS, and Ken Watanabe was alongside Liam Neeson (that was kind of a deliberate thing to make you think he was Ra's, though).  I'm not at all familiar with Dr Strange or the character Tilda Swinton is playing, but it sounds like its switched from male Asian to female Caucasian - so a net zero in terms of deliberate inclusiveness.  There's also Karen Fukuhara in the upcoming Suicide Squad flick (playing Katana).

And them of course, we have Israeli casting for Wonder Woman, which is interesting.


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## Janx (Jul 21, 2015)

you would think hollywood would be self aware of the problem to know that you never change a role to a male or to a white person because they have had a poor track record of diversity.


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## Ryujin (Jul 21, 2015)

Tonguez said:


> Okay so the title may be a bit more provocative than it needed to be but I've just learnt that Tilda Swinton has been cast as the Ancient One (aka the High Lama, the Mystic) the Tibetan Scorcerer who teaches Doctor Strange everything he knows.
> 
> I'm okay with the gender swap there, but I am concerned that - following in the footsteps of the Ben Kingsleys Mandarin and the live action depictions of Ras Al-Ghul by Liam Neeson and the Australian guy on Arrow - there seems to be a bit of whitewashing going on amongst Superhero Movies that removes important Asian roles.I don't think its deliberate of course, its probably more a systemic issue of casting agents who focus on the white actors they know. But its not as if there aren't a good few Asian actors available in Hollywood.
> 
> So what do you all think? are my concerns justifiable or am I looking for issues where none exist?What can be done to get more Asian actors into movie roles and can you think of any Asian actors that could have filled the role of the Ancient One as well as Tilda Swinton?




Unfortunately white-washing is a reality in Hollywood. The issue is that producers and backers want to see a guaranteed return for their investment and that means big name stars. I can only think of a handful of Asian stars who would be somewhat recognizable to a North American audience (Jackie Chan, Chow Yun Fat, Ming Na Wen, Ken Watanabe, Devon Aoki, half of Kristin Kreuk...). Maybe we'll get lucky with the proposed "Iron Fist" movie?

On the flipside, there were an awful lot of _villians_ who were Asian. 



Morrus said:


> And them of course, we have Israeli casting for Wonder Woman, which is interesting.




I'm not a really big fan of that casting. To me, at least, Wonder Woman is more.... substantial (?) than a supermodel. Tall, beautiful and, above all, a physically imposing person. I'm very much a fan of the casting choice made by Rainfall Films in their Wonder Woman fan film short because they went for an actress with a regal look, rather than one who was just pretty. Marry that with someone who is obviously physically developed, and I'd be for it.

[video=youtube;XATiV3gmy-Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XATiV3gmy-Q[/video]


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## RangerWickett (Jul 21, 2015)

It will change at the rate that people vote with their wallets. If Hollywood sees a movie with a diverse cast making more money than one with white leads, they'll care. But most big movies are heavily focus-grouped. Currently most big name stars are white, so they cast them to try to make money. It's a self-feeding cycle, and rare are the non-whites who even get a chance to be a leading man.

Will Smith has managed it. And he's in Suicide Squad.

The Fast & The Furious franchise has a half-black lead, a half-Samoan guy who's got a prominent role, and a supporting cast of black, Asian, Latin, and Israeli characters. They actually lost the one all-white guy they had, Paul Walker.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 22, 2015)

Hollywood has looooong history of Caucasians cast as Asians that continues to the day...regardless of genre.  It's one thing they really haven't figured out is just as bothersome as all the other forms of whitewashing.


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## Ryujin (Jul 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Hollywood has looooong history of Caucasians cast as Asians that continues to the day...regardless of genre.  It's one thing they really haven't figured out is just as bothersome as all the other forms of whitewashing.




Sidney Toller as Charlie Chan, David Carradine beating out Bruce Lee for the part of Kwai Chang Caine in "Kung Fu".....


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 22, 2015)

John Wayne as Genghis Khan.

_*microphone drop*_


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## MechaPilot (Jul 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> John Wayne as Genghis Khan.
> 
> _*microphone drop*_




I don't know if that one is real or not.  Assuming that it is, it likely happened at a time when rampant racism in Hollywood was either the norm or at least generally accepted.  I would even dare to say that it qualifies as being less egregious during that time because of the general racial sentiments of that time.  In the more modern era of equal rights, such behavior is definitely more generally offensive than it would have been back then.


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## Crothian (Jul 22, 2015)

Isn't the character type of the old Asian who is just there to teach the white guy mystical Asian secrets a racist concept to begin with? So, is it better to leave a racist concept like that or get rid of it by replacing it with a white person? As to the comment of Hollywood being self aware of this problem of course they aren't because to them it's not a problem.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 22, 2015)

MechaPilot said:


> I don't know if that one is real or not.  Assuming that it is, it likely happened at a time when rampant racism in Hollywood was either the norm or at least generally accepted.



It's real, from 1956.



And don't forget Mickey Rooney as Mr. Yunioshi in 1961's _Breakfast At Tiffany's_.





> In the more modern era of equal rights, such behavior is definitely more generally offensive than it would have been back then.



Certainly, which is why when Emma Stone was cast as a person of Asian descent in _Aloha_* and all the heroes of the biblical epic _Noah_ were caucasians (and all the villains were some kind of minority)**, there was a big stink raised.





* http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...a-stone-aloha-asian-casting-apology/28400233/

** http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tinsel...white-aronofsky-casts-all-europeans-for-noah/


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## MechaPilot (Jul 22, 2015)

Crothian said:


> Isn't the character type of the old Asian who is just there to teach the white guy mystical Asian secrets a racist concept to begin with? So, is it better to leave a racist concept like that or get rid of it by replacing it with a white person? As to the comment of Hollywood being self aware of this problem of course they aren't because to them it's not a problem.




I wouldn't say that the ancient Asian master is a "racist" concept, but it is an Asian stereotype.  To me, racist implies negativity.  For example, to me, if someone said all Asians are good at math, I wouldn't take that as being racist because it's not demeaning them with a negative trait, though it 100% is sterotyping them.

It's the same thing as people saying that black men are well-endowed, or that Jews know how to handle money (though changing financial skill to greed or a love for money crosses over to racism).  It's definitely stereotyping, but it lacks that demeaning, dehumanizing quality that defines racism in my eyes.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 22, 2015)

Crothian said:


> Isn't the character type of the old Asian who is just there to teach the white guy mystical Asian secrets a racist concept to begin with?



Yep, along with its black counterpart, often called the "Magical Negro".



> So, is it better to leave a racist concept like that or get rid of it by replacing it with a white person?



Tough question, to which the answer can only be, "It depends."

If it is a white person advising white people on some kind of "mystic secrets of life", no problem.

But a white person doing likewise to people of color- _especially_ in a film predominantly cast with minority actors- runs smack into the issue of white paternalism, aka "The White Man's Burden."


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## Rune (Jul 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> all the heroes of the biblical epic _Noah_ were caucasians (and all the villains were some kind of minority)**, there was a big stink raised.




I don't think I saw the same movie as those people. In the version I saw, one of the two main villains was played by Russell Crowe.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 22, 2015)

Wasn't really interested in the movie, so didn't see it...but how do you characterize _Noah_ as the villain in the story of the biblical flood?


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## Morrus (Jul 22, 2015)

I haven't seen it either - it looks awful! - but isn't Ray Winstone a main villain?

I thought the common criticism of that movie is that it had no people of colour in it at all, not that they were all cast as villains. But like I said, I haven't seen it, so I have no idea how true that is.


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## gamerprinter (Jul 22, 2015)

Well I've been convinced that Ancient Greece consists of hoplite soldiers as English speaking with Scottish accents. Look at the movies for Troy, 300, and many others - it must true!


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## Ryujin (Jul 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Yep, along with its black counterpart, often called the "Magical Negro".




Not quite the same thing. You'll find the Sensei/Sifu concept in various Asian cultures. You'll see it in Asian movies, that have no relation to anything Hollywood. The "magical Negro", however, appears to be a whole-cloth invention of Hollywood.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 22, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> Not quite the same thing. You'll find the Sensei/Sifu concept in various Asian cultures. You'll see it in Asian movies, that have no relation to anything Hollywood. The "magical Negro", however, appears to be a whole-cloth invention of Hollywood.




The Sensei IS a classic of Asian fiction, where it is an Asian teaching fellow Asians.  However, it isn't as if Asians are the only ones with mystic figures who educate their own people- you'll find them in the native lore of EVERY culture, even African ones.

Besides, translated into _Western_ fiction, the Sensei is predominantly the teacher of young Caucasians- _Karate Kid_, _Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai_, the monks who educated the mixed race Kwai Chang Kane in _Kung Fu_, countless Chuck Norris films...  He is usually the only heroic Asian- or sometimes, the only Asian at all- in the film, and as such, it has become just an ethnically-changed Magical Negro.

As for Hollywood creating the Magical Negro, well, the trope/archetype predates film:  Jim- the character from Mark Twain's 1884's _Huckleberry Finn_- is considered to be one of the classic exemplars...5 years before the first motion picture.


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## Ryujin (Jul 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The Sensei IS a classic of Asian fiction, where it is an Asian teaching fellow Asians.  However, it isn't as if Asians are the only ones with mystic figures who educate their own people- you'll find them in the native lore of EVERY culture, even African ones.
> 
> Besides, translated into _Western_ fiction, the Sensei is predominantly the teacher of young Caucasians- _Karate Kid_, _Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai_, the monks who educated the mixed race Kwai Chang Kane in _Kung Fu_, countless Chuck Norris films...  He is usually the only heroic Asian- or sometimes, the only Asian at all- in the film, and as such, it has become just an ethnically-changed Magical Negro.
> 
> As for Hollywood creating the Magical Negro, well, the trope/archetype predates film:  Jim- the character from Mark Twain's 1884's _Huckleberry Finn_- is considered to be one of the classic exemplars...5 years before the first motion picture.




True enough on the Sensei/Sifu archetype, where Hollywood is concerned. Yes, other cultures have the ancient teacher concept, but it doesn't tend to be as directly nor repeatedly ripped off as those of Asian cultures. It's typically more modernized. The only one that sees anywhere near as much abuse would be the North American Indian shaman.

Interesting. I wouldn't have put "Jim" in that category. It's certainly not as overt as a Laurence Fishburne (Morpheus), Tony Todd (Bludworth), or God (Morgan Freeman). There's a more generic term "Numinous Negro" indicating a black person of saintly or holy demeanour, who appears in fiction.


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## Umbran (Jul 22, 2015)

Crothian said:


> Isn't the character type of the old Asian who is just there to teach the white guy mystical Asian secrets a racist concept to begin with?




Yep.  

The Ancient One and the Mandarin were racist stereotypes to begin with.  I kind of forgive that, in that they were created in the early 1960s, and I don't generally blame people for failing to be ahead of their times.  But using them as-is would have been bad.



> So, is it better to leave a racist concept like that or get rid of it by replacing it with a white person?




Well, as we consider this, we should remember that Ben Kingsley's birth name is Krishna Pandit Bhanji.  

I think, with both of these characters, they are actually getting rid of the stereotype - Kingsley's Mandarin was nothing much like the original comic book stereotype one.  I am expecting much the same for The Ancient One. They are merely reusing part of the concepts, and revamping them for the modern era.


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## Umbran (Jul 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The Sensei IS a classic of Asian fiction, where it is an Asian teaching fellow Asians.  However, it isn't as if Asians are the only ones with mystic figures who educate their own people- you'll find them in the native lore of EVERY culture, even African ones.




The overall thing at hand is what is sometimes referred to as "romantic racism", where a member of a dominant group projects fantasies onto other groups - the Magical Negro, the Noble Savage, and so on.

I think we should differentiate - the typical Magical Negro is a supporting character, but *not* typically a mentor passing on spiritual or mystical power.  There's a subtle difference - the idea that the white man can/will take on the Asian power, but *doesn't* take on the African power.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 22, 2015)

Umbran said:


> I think we should differentiate - the typical Magical Negro is a supporting character, but *not* typically a mentor passing on spiritual or mystical power.  There's a subtle difference - the idea that the white man can/will take on the Asian power, but *doesn't* take on the African power.



I don't know that we can make that distinction- Morpheus (_The Matrix)_, Bagger Vance (_The Legend of Bagger Vance)_, Willie Brown (_Crossroads_)* and many others clearly show white people "the Way", making them better, stronger, faster...







* Special footnote: Ralph Macchio has the distinction of having tutelage from both a Sensei (Mr. Miyagi) AND a Magical Negro (Willie Brown), so all you haters better step back!


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## Rune (Jul 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Wasn't really interested in the movie, so didn't see it...but how do you characterize _Noah_ as the villain in the story of the biblical flood?




Well, see the movie, and you'll know (it's currently on Netflix, incidentally). Also, it's worth noting that the movie kind of creates its own setting. It would be more accurate to say that it is inspired by parts of the Book of Genesis than based on it--which is one reason that the casting wasn't actually all that jarring--at least to me. Hollywood's fake "historical piece" accent that every historical or fantasy movie uses still is, but I guess I'm just going to have to accept that. 



Morrus said:


> I haven't seen it either - it looks awful! - but isn't Ray Winstone a main villain?
> 
> I thought the common criticism of that movie is that it had no people of colour in it at all, not that they were all cast as villains. But like I said, I haven't seen it, so I have no idea how true that is.




It's not awful--and a large part of that was their decision to turn Noah into (or, rather, reveal him as) a villain (the _real_ villain, I would argue) halfway through the movie. 

Then again, I didn't go in expecting it to suck, so I was able to immerse myself. If I had expected it to suck, I would have had a harder time with it, because the movie _does_ seem to have been designed to be hard to acclimate to, especially in the beginning (if you'll pardon the phrasing). It's intended audience seems to be people who are familiar with the source material, but interested in an entirely different perspective for the retelling of it. 

Of course, I like several of the movies that you have expressed distaste for on these boards, so you might well find the movie awful, anyway.


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## gamerprinter (Jul 22, 2015)

Rune said:


> It's not awful--and a large part of that was their decision to turn Noah into (or, rather, reveal him as) a villain (the _real_ villain, I would argue) halfway through the movie.
> 
> Then again, I didn't go in expecting it to suck, so I was able to immerse myself. If I had expected it to suck, I would have had a harder time with it, because the movie _does_ seem to have been designed to be hard to acclimate to, especially in the beginning (if you'll pardon the phrasing). It's intended audience seems to be people who are familiar with the source material, but interested in an entirely different perspective for the retelling of it.
> 
> Of course, I like several of the movies that you have expressed distaste for on these boards, so you might well find the movie awful, anyway.




Its pretty aweful, and I had no expectations.


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## Umbran (Jul 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I don't know that we can make that distinction- Morpheus (_The Matrix)_, Bagger Vance (_The Legend of Bagger Vance)_, Willie Brown (_Crossroads_)* and many others clearly show white people "the Way", making them better, stronger, faster...




I have only seen the first of those you name directly, and I don't know of "many" others.  My response is that three examples do not a shift in trope make.


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## Rune (Jul 22, 2015)

gamerprinter said:


> Its pretty aweful, and I had no expectations.




Eh. As I implied at the end of my post, your mileage may vary. There are plenty of movies out there that I find to be awful; this wasn't one of them. 

But they _did_ seem to go out of their way to make the movie difficult to get into, especially, I think, for the people they had to figure would be most likely to watch a movie about a bible-story. These were clearly deliberate decisions--the wisdom of which are certainly debatable. But one thing the movie definitely does _not_ do is pander to its most likely demographic. 

Perfect? No way. But far more artful than it appears.


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## gamerprinter (Jul 22, 2015)

Rune said:


> But far more artful than it appears.




It was "artful" I'll grant that. The precursor race of robots, kind of threw me for a loop, as well, as in "why?". I wouldn't even call myself "Christian", so its not for religious reasons that I didn't like it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 22, 2015)

Umbran said:


> I have only seen the first of those you name directly, and I don't know of "many" others.  My response is that three examples do not a shift in trope make.





Bagger Vance is essentially Will Smith playing Krishna- he teaches a white guy, R. Junuh, how to play awesome golf and thus win at life.  From the Wiki:



> Similarities to the Hindu epic Mahabharata
> The plot is roughly based on the Hindu sacred text the Bhagavad Gita, where the Warrior/Hero Arjuna (R. Junuh) refuses to fight. The god Krishna appears as Bhagavan (Bagger Vance) to help him to follow his path as the warrior and hero that he was meant to be.




Willie teaches classically trained Caucasian guitarist the blues soooooo well, he attracts the Devil's attention- Macchio's character defeats the Devil's own guitarist (Steve Vai) with a combination of his blues AND classical chops.

***

Just a smattering of more MNs who mentor & improve their Caucasian charges by showing 'em how to fish for themselves, as it were:

Morgan Freeman as Lucius Fox in Batman Begins- gives lots of tech/engineering help.  (Freeman plays many Magic Negroes.)

In The Basketball Diaries, Ernie Hudson plays the only black character in the film, who does a lot to help the protagonist.

Guinan in Star Trek: The Next Generation.  Nobody takes on her powers- they can't- but they DO all become better off after following her advice.  ALWAYS.

Steven King examples:
Mother Abigail from The Stand

The Shining: Dick Hallorann, helps Danny learn about The Shining.

Lisa Simpson had her own personal Magical Negro in the form of Bleedin' Gums Murphy, who noted that she should listen when people tell her to brush her teeth and that she sang the blues pretty good for someone with no actual problems.


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## Tonguez (Jul 22, 2015)

Umbran said:


> I think, with both of these characters, they are actually getting rid of the stereotype...  I am expecting much the same for The Ancient One. They are merely reusing part of the concepts, and revamping them for the modern era.




The question will be how far they are willing to go to remove the Stereotype. For instance if Tilda Swintons Ancient One is presented as a "Celtic Wise Women" in the Grampians then I'd accepting that as a whole cloth reimagining of the character and kinda neat. 
However if they keep the Ancient One in a hidden valley in Tibet, with all the trappings of a High Lama then they simply transfer the racism from stereotype to yellow-face, which is arguably worse. Of course I am getting ahead of myself here as we still have no idea how the Ancient One is being presented other than the casting choice.

Who knows I may be happily impressed by the reimagining


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## Kaodi (Jul 22, 2015)

Should Morgan Freeman as God really be grouped with the rest of that stereotype? I mean, Morgan Freeman as God is specifically a counter to a different racist phenomenon: only white people can be God.


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## Rune (Jul 22, 2015)

gamerprinter said:


> It was "artful" I'll grant that. The precursor race of robots, kind of threw me for a loop, as well, as in "why?". I wouldn't even call myself "Christian", so its not for religious reasons that I didn't like it.




If you mean the "Watchers," they are more pretty much earth elementals. Their depiction is actually a combination (and redefining) of a couple of ancient ideas. The first, referenced in Genesis, is that an ancient race of giants existed (at the same time that angels used to mate with women, creating great men--implied to be more giants). 

And the second, an ancient idea put forth by Jewish mystics (as I understand it--haven't seen these texts, myself) that when the rebellious angels were cast out of Heaven, they were encrusted in earth. The symbolism of which (or its inverse--transcendence through the shedding of the world--which is also depicted in the movie) is often found in art through the centuries--and even in modern works. Galahad's transcendence (significantly not just death!) in _Le Morte D'Arthur_ and Neo's transcendence (even with flight!) in _The Matrix_ are two examples that leap directly into my mind.


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## Rune (Jul 22, 2015)

Kaodi said:


> Should Morgan Freeman as God really be grouped with the rest of that stereotype? I mean, Morgan Freeman as God is specifically a counter to a different racist phenomenon: only white people can be God.




Surely Morgan Freeman's godlike voice had _something_ to do with the casting?


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## Morrus (Jul 22, 2015)

Yeah, I'm not sure finally casting God as a black guy rather than a white guy with a bushy white beard counts. That's totally affirmative.  Casting black actors is a good thing.

And Morpheus is Merlin.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 22, 2015)

Kaodi said:


> Should Morgan Freeman as God really be grouped with the rest of that stereotype? I mean, Morgan Freeman as God is specifically a counter to a different racist phenomenon: only white people can be God.



I'll give him a pass on that...but not everyone does, in part because of the way God is written in those films.  (Personally, I think they're going a little too far with that analysis, but...)


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## Umbran (Jul 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> (Personally, I think they're going a little too far with that analysis, but...)




If one is actively seeking reasons to be offended, reasons *will* be found.


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## Ryujin (Jul 22, 2015)

Rune said:


> Surely Morgan Freeman's godlike voice had _something_ to do with the casting?




Well he is omnipresent, so adding in the other two Aspects seems like a walk.


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## miniaturehoarder (Jul 23, 2015)

It's worse than mere petty racism, it's likely Hollywood kowtowing to the murderous Chinese Regime over the subject of Tibet. By making the ancient one caucasian, they'll also be removing any need to connect the character to Tibet. Doing that will make it easier to get the film into Chinese theaters.


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## miniaturehoarder (Jul 23, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Casting black actors is a good thing.



Actors should be judged not by the colour of their skin, but by the acting of their characters. Denzel Washington getting more work is good, Chris Tucker on the other hand...


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## Morrus (Jul 23, 2015)

miniaturehoarder said:


> Actors should be judged not by the colour of their skin, but by the acting of their characters.




Not a big fan of affirmative action, eh?


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## Mallus (Jul 23, 2015)

Where to begin with this?

What matters most to me is more and better roles for Asians in American films, superhero or otherwise. Roles that are in and of themselves diverse and less connected to common stereotypes, even if those stereotypes are positive -- which is why I absolutely *do not want* an Asian-American Danny Rand/Iron First, for exmaple (more on this in a bit).

I'm fine w/Tilda Swinton being in Dr. Strange. She's a good actress and a marvelously odd human being, who quite possibly fell to Earth along with David Bowie at some point in the 20th century. I quite liked Ben Kingsley's Mandarin, too. Another great actor in a role that neatly side-stepped the problems inherent in bringing a Yellow Peril-esque character to the 21st century Silver Screen. Besides, as was already pointed out, Kingsley is of Asian heritage. 

To be frank, I have something of a problem with "Asian roles" in media. What starts as an earnest call for increasing diversity often ends up sounding like a return to racist typecasting. I want to see an Asian Spider-Man and Lois Lane, not another martial artist or quasi-Chinese mystic. So gender-and-ethnicity-flipping the Old One into a tall, ethereal British woman is okay, not a cause for concern.

A while back an Asian/Pacific Islander-American advocacy group was petitioning Marvel to recast Danny Rand as Asian. Because Danny being white makes the whole character an act of cultural appropriation, or embarrassingly dated Orientalism, or both. While I can respect where they're coming from, I still think it's an awful idea. I spent my youth being called Bruce Lee/Kato by my peers -- which, in retrospect, I should have taken as a compliment -- so a group of present day Asian-American activists want to essentially reinforce the idea that Kung-Fu Master = Asian Guy seems, well, mindbogglingly stupid and retrograde. Shouldn't we be fighting for _better_ representation than this? 

In a similar vein, the complaints about Scarlett Johansson playing the Major Kusanagi in the _Ghost in the Shell_ remake read kinda racist to me. It's a American adaptation of a Japanese anime/manga. Why does the role "belong" to a Japanese actress. Or failing that, at least a non-Indian Asian one? Would people be complaining if it were, say, a German work being adapted? "Well, the lead actress _should_ be German-American, but we're willing to accept someone Polish or French". I have both a tiny bit of Japanese heritage and significantly more German (if I had too, I could bake a stollen for Christmas using my nana's recipe). I can't fathom why media from one of my ancestries should be treated as different from another -- both are developed nations in their own right, and neither groups in the US qualify as discriminated-against minorities. Besides, the character isn't a minority within the work; she's part of the majority ethnic group (except for the military-grade cybernetics). The demand becomes nonsensical; the studio should preserver & honor the original work by casting an Asian actress, but also completely rewrite the character so she's from a minority background. Oy vey...

Also, while calling out the lack of diversity in media has its place, it's also nice to signal-boost shows that are doing diversity well. Like the aforementioned Agents of Shield, with it's two Asian-American principles (and another season-long guest star/antagonist). And the absolutely amazing Sense8 -- a very brave, ambitious show in which the diversity and beauty of human beings is it's beating, worn-on-it's sleeve heart. Why don't we have a thread about Sense8? It's effing wonderful.   

(apologies for the length... this topic is, evidently, important to me).

edit: one more thing - it's with no small amount of irony I'll note that in the 1930s there were at least three Hollywood film series featuring Asian main characters. Fine, fine, none of them were _played_ by Asians (though major supporting roles were, like Keye Luke's fantastic turn as Charlie Chan's #1 Son), but still. That's three more Asian heroes than you've got in the multiplexes today. And of the three, only Peter Lorre's Mr. Moto used the martial arts, and even then only a bit of judo, used judiciously.


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## miniaturehoarder (Jul 23, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Not a big fan of affirmative action, eh?



Not if it involves more obnoxious characters like Ruby Rhod and Snails the thief.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 23, 2015)

miniaturehoarder said:


> Not if it involves more obnoxious characters like Ruby Rhod and Snails the thief.




Ruby amused me, but Snails?  Snails was just a manifestation of the fact that the producers of that movie couldn't afford Chris Tucker, and hired Marlon Wayans to do the character in his best Chris Tucker impression...which wasn't all that good.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 23, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Not a big fan of affirmative action, eh?



Speaking for myself only, I'm not a fan of the recasting of most characters by race or gender (on screen or in things like comic books).  Yes, it lets you explore aspects of a character or storyline that might not have worked with the original, but all too often, it is a distraction and needlessly changes the character's dynamics.

I say needless, because, too often, the subtler changes that go along with the obvious racial or gender swap go completely ignored.  Example: Will Smith as the highly visible, flashy Secret Service agent James West faced almost no consequences of his skin color...in the Americas between 1869-1877.  (The real first black agent in the Secret Service came in the early 1960s.)

As a black man, I want to see and read about black heroes, of course.  But I want them to be more original than merely painted-over Caucasians.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 23, 2015)

> I spent my youth being called Bruce Lee/Kato by my peers -- which, in retrospect, I should have taken as a compliment...




Why?  Was it meant as one?

There's reasons why many Native Americans don't like being called "Chief" or "Geronimo", even though those would normally connote respect.


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## miniaturehoarder (Jul 23, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Ruby amused me, but Snails?  Snails was just a manifestation of the fact that the producers of that movie couldn't afford Chris Tucker, and hired Marlon Wayans to do the character in his best Chris Tucker impression...which wasn't all that good.



Got a link to back that up? Not the money angle, I know the money wasn't there (what they did have probably went up someones nose), but that Sweetpee wanted Chris Tucker.


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## Ryujin (Jul 23, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Speaking for myself only, I'm not a fan of the recasting of most characters by race or gender (on screen or in things like comic books).  Yes, it lets you explore aspects of a character or storyline that might not have worked with the original, but all too often, it is a distraction and needlessly changes the character's dynamics.
> 
> I say needless, because, too often, the subtler changes that go along with the obvious racial or gender swap go completely ignored.  Example: Will Smith as the highly visible, flashy Secret Service agent James West faced almost no consequences of his skin color...in the Americas between 1869-1877.  (The real first black agent in the Secret Service came in the early 1960s.)
> 
> As a black man, I want to see and read about black heroes, of course.  But I want them to be more original than merely painted-over Caucasians.




As someone who actually watched "Wild, Wild West" on a black and white TV, as a kid, Will Smith's place in it somewhat stretched credulity. If we want to have stories with more diversity and better casting for such then it's about time that people start writing new stuff, instead of strip mining old TV and movies.

"Django Unchained", for example.

If you're doing a piece set in a historic setting, then the story should fit that setting. Heroes who buck the status quo are both easy to write and engaging for the audience, especially when said status quo is unfair. Science Fiction has a long history of addressing past and present sociopolitical issues in a future setting. Fantasy can easily do the same.  

But then again I'm a pasty white guy of mostly Scottish descent, so my opinion on such matters has little import.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 23, 2015)

miniaturehoarder said:


> Got a link to back that up? Not the money angle, I know the money wasn't there (what they did have probably went up someones nose), but that Sweetpee wanted Chris Tucker.




Apologies- I don't mean to imply that they _actually_ and _in fact_ wanted Chris Tucker.  

But the character was SO badly done, I inferred that someone- the director, maybe Marlon himself- thought the idea of a "Chris Tucker type" portrayal would be best.

And he was NOT up to the challenge.


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## Mallus (Jul 23, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Why?  Was it meant as one?
> 
> There's reasons why many Native Americans don't like being called "Chief" or "Geronimo", even though those would normally connote respect.



Oh it surely wasn't meant as a compliment -- I was kidding. It just strikes me as slightly funny now that I'm a middle-aged man that my childhood friends chose to a call me a handsome, deadly, movie star as thought it was insulting. 



Dannyalcatraz said:


> As a black man, I want to see and read about black heroes, of course.  But I want them to be more original than merely painted-over Caucasians.



This gets to the heart of my problem with a lot of the contemporary calls for diversity in media. There needs to be an honestly to the characters, to the depictions of minority experiences. More than just appearances. Which means not just better casting, but more non-white people doing the writing and directing, with less interference from corporate (which is hard to imagine given the budget of superhero films) . This is why Ava DuVernay passing on directing the Black Panther film bothers me more than Swinton in Dr. Strange.


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> As a black man, I want to see and read about black heroes, of course.  But I want them to be more original than merely painted-over Caucasians.




So, if I might ask - what's your opinion of the Miles Morales Spider Man?


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2015)

miniaturehoarder said:


> Actors should be judged not by the colour of their skin, but by the acting of their characters. Denzel Washington getting more work is good, Chris Tucker on the other hand...




Most actors have their places where they are awesome.  I used to have exactly zero use for Will Ferrell.  Then, he did his role in "The Producers", and I understood when his personal style was useful - rarely, but there are moments.


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## Alzrius (Jul 23, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Ruby amused me, but Snails?  Snails was just a manifestation of the fact that the producers of that movie couldn't afford Chris Tucker, and hired Marlon Wayans to do the character in his best Chris Tucker impression...which wasn't all that good.




All true, but the character had some measure of value as a character. To quote one of my favorite reviews of that awful movie:



> [...]Snails did his job, played his alignment, and sacrificed himself so the twerpy lead beau could escape. It takes a good player to take his beating like a man, even though the guy who killed him was a bald, blue lipstick-wearing ponce. He tried, and that scores points with me. BIG TIME boos to the "hero" who ran off to let his buddy get slaughtered.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 23, 2015)

Umbran said:


> So, if I might ask - what's your opinion of the Miles Morales Spider Man?




Not high.

I get it.  I really do.  Re-skinning characters lets you tell stories from alternative viewpoints with minimal risk.  Hispanics get a marquee character, Marvel doesn't have to do as much to launch the character brand.  Launching new characters- especially potentially major ones- are a costly investment.  Win-win.

But it tosses decades of character development.

Yes- characters get retconned all the time.  I stopped counting Superman incarnations at 6.  But at his core, but for things like "Red Son" and the like, he's always been the same character, just with differing levels of power.

Changing Superman to a black guy would be a bigger change- see Icon.

And, in my mind at least, it's lazy.  Good as he might be, Morales is a hand-me-down hero.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 23, 2015)

Alzrius said:


> All true, but the character had some measure of value as a character. To quote one of my favorite reviews of that awful movie:




That's not value as a character, that's value as a speed bump.


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I get it.  I really do.  Re-skinning characters lets you tell stories from alternative viewpoints with minimal risk.




In this case, he even comes from an entire alternate line of alternative viewpoints - the Ultimate line was like a whole bunch of "What if... the people in the Marvel Universe were more realistic?"



> But it tosses decades of character development.




Well, not in this case.  Peter Parker is sticking around.  They're having multiple Spider Men, and a couple Spider Women as well....

This is the part I don't like - we are in for some serious Spider-fatigue. 



> And, in my mind at least, it's lazy.  Good as he might be, Morales is a hand-me-down hero.




That sounds fair.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 23, 2015)

I see.  The Morales character (as I recall) originally popped up after Parker died, but they retconned that.

As for the Spider-bandwagon...they clearly learned nothing from their own "X-plosion", as well as DC's Shazam family and all the Kryptonians who kept popping up on Earth.

(Dovetailing with the Evil Superman thread, isn't it a good thing that the Kandorians never decided to make Earth their home?)


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## billd91 (Jul 23, 2015)

Umbran said:


> If one is actively seeking reasons to be offended, reasons *will* be found.




No kidding. Even with movies that aren't whitewashed like *Memoirs of a Geisha*, there will be complaints for casting the *wrong* Asians.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 23, 2015)

Well...there ARE more of them in the world.  Bigger casting pool!

A Filipino buddy of mine and I were discussing a prospective movie script that was very Asian-centric, and rattled off our wish list of actors we thought would be perfect for most of the major roles.  Then he got a funny look in his eye...and I knew INSTANTLY what he was thinking.

"We didn't cast ANYBODY in a role matching their actual ethnicity, did we?"  I asked.

"Nope!"

Then the laughing of asses off commenced.


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## Ryujin (Jul 23, 2015)

Umbran said:


> In this case, he even comes from an entire alternate line of alternative viewpoints - the Ultimate line was like a whole bunch of "What if... the people in the Marvel Universe were more realistic?"




And therein lies the humour. Marvel characters always tended to be "more realistic" than DC characters, because they actually had real life problems. That's not to say that they were in any fundamental way realistic, but their day-to-day lives were far from uncomplicated.


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I see.  The Morales character (as I recall) originally popped up after Parker died, but they retconned that.




No.  In the Ultimates universe, Parker died, and Morales picked up the mantle.

However, in the new Secret Wars, they are doing a multiverse mashup, and some things from various universes will now persist together in the main continuity - Morales is getting pulled into the mainstream Parker continuity (Earth-616, for those who care about such things).  They aren't killing off E-616 Parker - he's being used to tell different Spider Man stories.



> As for the Spider-bandwagon...they clearly learned nothing from their own "X-plosion"




Yeah.  I know Spidey is their overall most popular character, but... well, I hope the variations are around only so long as they tell some interesting stories, and then fade.  Maybe leave us Parker to be mature Spider Man, and Morales to be teen Spider Man, and leave it at that.


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## Mallus (Jul 24, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> "We didn't cast ANYBODY in a role matching their actual ethnicity, did we?"  I asked.
> 
> "Nope!"
> 
> Then the laughing of asses off commenced.



That's beautiful, mang!


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