# Complete Scoundrel Here



## EyeontheMountain (Jan 4, 2007)

Just got my copy from Amazon.jp an hour or so ago. 

I'll keep adding posts with various info to this thread, so noone has to wait too long for something 

Tricks
(Figure everyone wants me to start here)

Tricks are an additional use of a skill you can purchase for a flat cost of 2 skill points. You can have up to 1 for every 2 character levels and gan generally use each trick once per encounter or one round every minute out of combat. Feats, prestige classes and a couple of the tricks change this of course. 

Most of the tricks have requirements in skill ranks befroe you can use the trick. At least 5 ranks, and a maximum of 12, with many tricks requiring minimum ranks in two or thre related skills. A lot of them remind me of feats from elsewhere, but are more limited (see the once/encounter or 1/10 rounds note above) Some require feats also.(only a few though)

I'll write up two to give you an idea of what they do. Text is summarized.

Acrobatic Backstab
Required: Tumble 12 ranks
Move through the opponent's space to make it flat footed for your next attack inthe same round (sneak attack, here if comes)

False Theurgy
Sleight of Hand or Bluff 8 ranks
Spellcraft 8 ranks
The spell looks like a different spell of the same level when being cast (works well against counterspelling, but not dispel magic) but has the usual effects once it is done casting.

Looks pretty interesting to me, but I see a few rules arguments coming up. For example with False Theury, does it need to be a spell you know? Makes sense, but does not say it.

Some of the tricks look like must haves, actually msot of them look like it, if you can afford the 2 skill points per each trick.


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## Remathilis (Jan 4, 2007)

What are the Prestige Classes? Any interesting new feats (specifically for acrobatic-rogues? That tumbling backstab is keen)


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## EyeontheMountain (Jan 4, 2007)

Post Two: Beginning fluff

Like COmplete MAge, there is a good 22 pages atthe beginning with fluff.

First 2 pages of literary/movie sources for scoundrel inpsiration such as

Dallas. JR - Waht more needs to be said?

Tehn the next section talks abouteh scoundrel worldview and way of playing one. Pretty good stuff overall, though more for a beginning player or someone who specializes in different classes. Like me. I found it quite interesting.

Sections:
What makes a scoundrel
Scoundrels of all 9 alignments
Scoundrels of any class(PHB only, with lesser amounts about complete classes)

Types of scoundrels
   Acrobatic
   Aggressive
   Arcane
   CleverDivine
   Psionic
   Ringmaster
   Stealthy

Each of the types has recommendations on classes, skills, feats, spell selections, tricks and more. Good reading.


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## JustKim (Jan 4, 2007)

Much appreciated, thanks for the info!


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## Mycanid (Jan 4, 2007)

Hmm ... sounds interesting. Always liked the thief acrobat image from way back.  But mixing in the spellcaster too... interesting.


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## mr_outsidevoice (Jan 4, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Looks pretty interesting to me, but I see a few rules arguments coming up. For example with False Theury, does it need to be a spell you know? Makes sense, but does not say it.





Why do you need to know the spell? Spellcraft enables a character to identify  a spell being cast or on a scroll, and you never have to have encountered it before.


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## EyeontheMountain (Jan 4, 2007)

Post Three:   Prestige classes

If you though earlier prestige classes were easy to get into you have not seen anything yet. Many of these prestige classes have ertry requirements that are totally wide open like  For esample the Battle Trickster iis

BAB +5
Any three skills 6 ranks each
Skill Tricks: Any two

And some are even easier. I see more multiclassing in 3.5 future. Mosto fthe prestige classes are not real big changes to the character concept, just quick dips. Note the number of 3 level classes below.

Note: When I say spellcasting prrogression that means divine or arcane.

----------------------------
Avenging Executioner 5 level: Looks like for a fighter, grants sudden strike and some nice abilities against shaken or frightened opponents Medium BAB

Battle Trickster 3 level Get a couple free tricks and a free feat, 

Cloaked Dancer: 5 level: You dance and scare everyone around you. Maybe for a bard, with 2/5 arcane progression. Meh.

Combat Trapsmith 5 level: Man I wantto try this guy out. Make traps in combat with full-round or eventually standard actions. Looks like a real fun class. Can't wait to see this one in play.

Fortune's Friend: 5 level: Gets some nice abilities with luck feats (I'll describe them later) Looks like a solid class.

The Gray Guard: 10 level: Boy, is this one going to be discussed and discussed and discussed. I'm not looking forward to it. This is a paladin prestige class that eventually makes the paladin basically able to ignore their code of conduct when they are directly working for their church's interests. Direct quote "No XP(for atonement) cost applies to a gray guard atoning after beating a confession from a heretic, for example, but the cost would have to be paid for one who started a barroom brawl"

The argumants in the future. 

Magical Trickster: 3 level 2/3 progression. Use spell slots to recharge tricks so you can use them mroe often in an encounter. Can apply a metamagic feat once per day for free (only up to 4 levels, though) <--No presist, I do believe. Good for a rogue/mage type.

Malconvoker: 10 level 9/10 progression. A summoner class, where you can summon evil creatures even if you are good. If you can bluff their socks off you can get some nice bonuses, extend, rage-like bonuses, extra dude etc. Looks interesting. I've been waiting for a decent summoner class. This may be it. 

The Master of Masks 10 level 4/10 spellcasting progression. You wear masks that give you nice abilities ala Tatooed Monk. Though with a differnt flavour and with some pretty impressive powers.. Even tually you can wear four at one time (switch with a move action) and turn thenm invisible to boot. I think this one will see some play, I would not mind trying it out myself. Each mask also projects a differnet alignment while active, which is intersting. One mask below, which advances with class level, like all of them do..

Archmage
Use thse spell-like abilities once day:
1st: charm person, magic missle, dancing lights
detect magic
4th: invisibility, scorching ray
7th: lightning bolt, slow
10th: Dimension door, Ice storm

While worn arcane caster level +2
While worn Chaotic-good alignment detected.

The Montebank 10 level An interesting class, it has two cool features. First is the Alter Ego, of which he eventually gets 3. Basically you can alter self at will into any of your alter ego forms, which are chosen when you get the ability. No restrictions on waht an Alter ego is, so apparently you could get one with natural armor, one with wings, and one more for whatever ability you need. You cna also sideslip eventually 43 times per day. This means that as an IMMEDIATE action you can move up to 20 feet away. Giant charging you, no problem, you ain't there. Cool

I can see rules arguments about Alter Ego. It shouldd be clearer.

The Psibond Agent 10 level. This psionic one is just.... weird. You make a bond with someone, and you can see through their eyes, get empathy, nudge them and eventually dominate them. But you have to concentrate all the time on them. Also you get sneak attack. I really do not understand this class. 

The Spellwarp Sniper 5 level 5/5 spellcasting progression A ray magic specialist, and even better, you can change area of effect spells to ray spells spontaneously. (up to 5th level) If you like to shoot rays this class is for you. Easy to get into, though you need sneak attack or sudden strike to get in, so you will probably be one level behind the curve. Looks interesting.

Uncanny Trickster 3 level. 2/3 spellcasting progression. You get bonus free tricks and three favorite tricks you can use twice iin an encoutner instead of once (a good ability) Nice dip class.

Odd how many of these spellcasting progresion classes do not require spellcasting to get in. 

Feats up next, in a while.


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## blargney the second (Jan 4, 2007)

How many tricks are there?


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## el-remmen (Jan 4, 2007)

Hmm, those tricks sound appealing.


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## AbeTheGnome (Jan 4, 2007)

dang.  no Lasher.  oh well...anyone selling their copy of sword and fist?


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## EvolutionKB (Jan 4, 2007)

combat trapsmith does indeed sound nifty


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## Cthulhudrew (Jan 4, 2007)

I'm not really understanding the difference between tricks and feats, other than tricks can only be used a limited number of times per encounter. It almost seems like it is just a way to give classes that get limited numbers of feats (but many skill points) more feats. I'll have to see more, I guess, before I can make a fair judgement.


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## RangerWickett (Jan 4, 2007)

AbeTheGnome said:
			
		

> dang.  no Lasher.  oh well...anyone selling their copy of sword and fist?




If you're amenable to 3rd party material, E.N. Publishing released a book all about whips:

E.N. Arsenal - Whips

Even more options for whip-wielders than one simple prestige class.


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## Cthulhudrew (Jan 4, 2007)

No chains?


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## Razz (Jan 4, 2007)

What're the feats? Give us examples of feats you find really good or interesting.

I'm interested in all the prestige classes, personally, but the trick system wasn't something I had in mind. Still, it could be interesting.

Also how're the magic items and is there any miscellaneous material that sticks out?


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## EyeontheMountain (Jan 4, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> How many tricks are there?




42 

Lot of bluff, Sleight of Hand and most other physical skills ones. Very few mental skill tricks.


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## EyeontheMountain (Jan 4, 2007)

Post Four: Feats

Types of Feats

Ambush: New name for those 'give up sd6 sneak attack for a special effect' feats There are 10 of these i9n the book, and some old feats have been added to the ambush catagory.

Luck: Now these are feat intensive but interesting. Basically each feat gives you a 1/day (or more) reroll as well as a specific way you can use that reroll. Teh cool thing is that if you have 2 or more luck feats, you can use the daily rerolls in any way you want, based on the feats you have. For example, if you ahve these two feats. And some feats give you two different benefits, depending on whether you use two luck rerolls or one . Again paraphrasing text.

Good Karma
Spend a luck reroll as an immediate action to redirect an attack forom an adjacent ally to you instead. 
You gain one luck reroll a day.

Fortuitous strike
You can spend one luck reroll as a  swift action to reroll a weapon damage roll.
You can spend two luck rerolls as a swift action to reroll an attack roll
You gain one luck reroll a day.

So if you had these two you would have a pool of two luck rerolls to use in a given day. You could use the first feat twice, the seond feat's first ability twice and so on, however you like.  Nice effect. Ther are 18 luck feats

There is also a good feat for those who have the luck domain also.

There are a bunch of feats like the Aestetic feats in Complete Adventurer, for multiclass rogues/swashbu8cklers/ninjas/spelltheives/fighters and a few others. There are about 10 of them, and some are quite nice, especially for boosting the ninja, spelltheif and swashbuckler.

Tehre are five nice bardic music feats, including one that can give one of your party evasion and a +5 reflex save in the next round. 

Also some feats for the scout. Try +2d6 damage and +2 ac if you move 20 feet instead of ten. WOW. Well worded to say '20 feet from where you started the turn" also to avoid people running in a circle.

And a few good trick feats. Overall interesting but I don't see too many that re too powerful, though that scout one looks like a must have at 6th or 8th level.


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## el-remmen (Jan 4, 2007)

el-remmen said:
			
		

> Hmm, those tricks sound appealing.




On second thought, however, I think they add a layer of complexity to the rules that their appeal cannot make up for.


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## Greg K (Jan 4, 2007)

Are there variant abilities to replace trapfinding/trapsense and/or uncanny dodge?


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 4, 2007)

Thanks EyeontheMountain!

What's with all the prestige classes with less than ten levels?  I count five "full" progression prestige classes out of thirteen!

Sad to see that Bards get the shaft again, it seems.  Maybe there would be less antipathy for the class if WotC could actually release something decent for them.

The feats sound cool, and tricks sound interesting.  I'll at least be flipping through it when it comes out here.  When is that again?


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## EyeontheMountain (Jan 4, 2007)

Post Five: Spells and miscellaneous (last post)

Umm, more stuff aboutthe polymorph subschool. No changes from the FAQ I can see, but I may not be totally up on it.

28 new spells, with a wide mix from Assassin to Wizard. Including some hexblade spells. Nice seplls are Enlarge weapon (works how you would expect, but does not stack with other growth effects like enlarge person)) Healer's vision allows you to see under the skin of your target (gross) to target healeing better. Or sneak attacks, if you are so inclined. Another one is the Scry Location spell, which will help those telporters out there. Open to bard, sorceror/wizard, cleric and druid. Works much like scrying

Wand Modulation is interesting, as you can casue a wand to cast a diffferent spell (at least one level lower) than it was built to cast.  Interesting, though you need to cast the new spell on the wand immediately.

Next rules for hidden spaces and surprise weapons. Looks like good additions to the game especially the bayonets added to crossbows.

Alchemical and posions sections.

A few magical items, including a few who work on tricks.

Next are living items, Gut mites, jabberweed and so on. Odd but could be a good drop into a campaign to befuddle your players.

Chapter 6 is Scoundel adventure. Pretty obvious stuff to me.4 organizations, (not affiliations, unfortunately, but organizations

Legendary sites

A bit about contacts, looks added on atthe last minute, but good stuff

Finally 100 scoundrel adventures

------

Overall, I think I like it. Three prestige classes I want to try out and I think the luck feats have potential. The tricks are excellent and can be aded into an existing campaing with nary a hiccup. Money well spent.


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## EyeontheMountain (Jan 4, 2007)

Greg K said:
			
		

> Are there variant abilities to replace trapfinding/trapsense and/or uncanny dodge?




Nope, no alterantive class features, or substitution levels, which is disapppointing.


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## EyeontheMountain (Jan 4, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Thanks EyeontheMountain!
> 
> What's with all the prestige classes with less than ten levels?  I count five "full" progression prestige classes out of thirteen!
> 
> ...




I don't think Bards get the shaft, if you are going more of a skills-oriented path. If you want to be a spellcaster, complete mage had a nice spellcasting prestige class. Tehre are a couple very sweet things for a bard.


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## EyeontheMountain (Jan 4, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> What's with all the prestige classes with less than ten levels?  I count five "full" progression prestige classes out of thirteen!




I am wondering aboutthat. It seems like they are going for dip classes that support a small part of the character, rather than full-bore specializing prestige classes. I was surprised by the number of 3 level prestige classes. I can only remember 2-3 ever published in WOTC products before.


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## Nightfall (Jan 4, 2007)

Eye,

Okay changing questions: Anything in the book about divine spellcasters ala mixing rogue/clerics for people that want it? I mean is it mostly arcane spellcasting pr-classes and feats that get noticed or do tricky clerics get anything interesting to their arsenal?


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## Greg K (Jan 4, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Nope, no alterantive class features, or substitution levels, which is disapppointing.




Thanks.  Well, apparently there is nothing really of interest to me in this book or, at least, not nearly enough to make me want to buy the book.


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## EyeontheMountain (Jan 4, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Eye,
> 
> Okay changing questions: Anything in the book about divine spellcasters ala mixing rogue/clerics for people that want it? I mean is it mostly arcane spellcasting pr-classes and feats that get noticed or do tricky clerics get anything interesting to their arsenal?




Ok, let me list them.

Monk/Ninja
rogue/swashbuckler
fighter/swashbuckler
fighter/ninja
spelltheif/arcane caster
spelltheif/manifester class
rogue/scout
ranger/scout

That's all, so nothing for a claeric/rogue, unfortunately.


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## AbeTheGnome (Jan 4, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> If you're amenable to 3rd party material, E.N. Publishing released a book all about whips:
> 
> E.N. Arsenal - Whips
> 
> Even more options for whip-wielders than one simple prestige class.



shameless self-promotion!     seriously, i'll check it out when i get five bucks in my account.


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## Nightfall (Jan 4, 2007)

Abe,

Shameless self promotion is the way this board works best! How else do think people got such high post counts? *pauses* Okay maybe it was just me.  

Greg,

Yeah that kind of limits the usefulness to me as well. That's what I enjoyed most about Complete Mage. 

Eye,

Figures. They go for the obviously stuff before thinking about cleric or divine spellcasters.

*thinks they made a mistake with the Grey thingie*


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## MerricB (Jan 4, 2007)

> Figures. They go for the obviously stuff before thinking about cleric or divine spellcasters.
> 
> *thinks they made a mistake with the Grey thingie*




Not to mention that Complete Champion is almost here as well.


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## Nightfall (Jan 4, 2007)

Merric,

Yeah well that's what, 5 months off from now? Couldn't hurt them to consider it? Just saying.

Eye,

When you get a chance, list a few alchemical weapons perhaps. Or maybe feats. That being said, if you don't I'll just wait until I get it. *is still getting it for completeness sake*


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## Piratecat (Jan 4, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> That's all, so nothing for a cleric/rogue, unfortunately.



I'm sad about that, considering that's my main character!  Dang.


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## WayneLigon (Jan 4, 2007)

No new core classes?


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## Nightfall (Jan 4, 2007)

Wayne,

Complete Mage didn't have any new core classes either so I'm not surprised. I was expecting, however, alternate class features.

PC,

Yeah I had a rogue/cleric idea too.


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## Psion (Jan 4, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> No new core classes?


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## Nightfall (Jan 4, 2007)

LOL@Psion.

You really wanted a new take on gutter snipe huh?


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## Sejs (Jan 4, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> No new core classes?




Base.    

Looks like Complete Mage - no new classes added, just stuff for existing classes.


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## Nightfall (Jan 4, 2007)

Sejs,

Yeah but unlike Complete Mage, there's no alternative class features to make your "base" classes more "roguish." Which I think should have been done. Much like I hope (but I'm having my doubts now) Complete Champion will do for base, make them more "champion" or "divine" like.


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## Valesin (Jan 4, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'm sad about that, considering that's my main character!  Dang.




And the coolest, yet least supported, combo.


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## Nightfall (Jan 4, 2007)

Val,

At least in WotC. I can think of a few good Rogue/Cleric ones off hand in d20.


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## Beckett (Jan 4, 2007)

Sounds pretty cool overall, but not as neat as CM (although I am biased toward arcanists over skill-types).  Luck feats will be worth a look, and tricks sound pretty interesting.


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## Nightfall (Jan 4, 2007)

Beckett,

Yeah but some arcanists...okay ONE arcanist type is kind of skills oriented. I mean if you didn't have ranks in Spellcraft, you couldn't figure out what spell is being cast. Same with Knowledge (arcana)

Thus skill guys help!


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## blargney the second (Jan 4, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> I was surprised by the number of 3 level prestige classes.



Those are actually the PrCs that I like the most.
-blarg

ps - I've been waiting for a decent cleric/rogue combo since 3.0 was released. *le sigh*


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## Nightfall (Jan 4, 2007)

blarg,

Well there was one for the Scarred Lands...but not sure if you want one that deals with Shadow too.


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## kaomera (Jan 4, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> ps - I've been waiting for a decent cleric/rogue combo since 3.0 was released. *le sigh*



I'm wondering what roles / abilities, specifically, you might expect to see combined. A Divine version of the Spellthief could be interesting, IMHO...


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## Nightfall (Jan 4, 2007)

Kao,

I was thinking like a feat that would allow you to say increase your Sneak attack damage when you expended a turn/rebuke undead.

Or maybe gave you blindsight. That kind of thing. 

A divine version of spellthief wouldn't be too bad either.


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## Particle_Man (Jan 4, 2007)

Looks like that Spellcraft/Bluff trick will be a lifesaver for the party illusionist.  No "easy detects" here (or is this now an opposed roll?)

What spells did the Hexblade get?  Are they worthwhile, in your opinion?


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## dargoth3 (Jan 4, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Those are actually the PrCs that I like the most.
> -blarg
> 
> ps - I've been waiting for a decent cleric/rogue combo since 3.0 was released. *le sigh*





have you checked out the divine seeker prc?


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## Sejs (Jan 4, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Sejs,
> 
> Yeah but unlike Complete Mage, there's no alternative class features to make your "base" classes more "roguish." Which I think should have been done. Much like I hope (but I'm having my doubts now) Complete Champion will do for base, make them more "champion" or "divine" like.



Agreed, it's a shame.  Loved that about CompMage.

Someone should write WotC a note or an email, tell 'em what's what.


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## blargney the second (Jan 4, 2007)

Two words: Priest-Acrobat. 
-blarg


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## Psion (Jan 4, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> At least in WotC. I can think of a few good Rogue/Cleric ones off hand in d20.




How many do you need?

There's divine trickster and shadowbane stalker. The ethos for SBS is a bit limited, but the adaptation notes point to how you can make them more general, and their class abilities are pretty generic for a cleric/rogue "mesh" PrC.


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## Cam Banks (Jan 4, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Complete Mage didn't have any new core classes either so I'm not surprised. I was expecting, however, alternate class features.




It seems as if alternative class features weren't included because the whole tricks system seems to offer something along the same lines - a way to bring the roguish element to any character class via skill point expenditure. You could probably turn any number of those tricks into ACFs without trouble; just figure out how many levels you'd need to meet the skill rank requirement and plug it in.

WotC seems to have dropped sub levels completely; Expedition to Castle Ravenloft seems to have been in development when this decision was made, for instance, since it has a sidebar on sub levels but includes ACFs instead.

Cheers,
Cam


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## Klaus (Jan 4, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'm sad about that, considering that's my main character!  Dang.



 Divine Sneak [General]
Prerquisites: Turn Undead, sneak attack or skirmish ability.
Benefit: If you make a turn attempt against an undead denied its Dexterity bonus (regardless of wether or not it has a Dexterity bonus), you add your Dexterity bonus to the turning check (in addition to your Charisma check) and half your sneak attack or skirmish dice to the turning damage.
If you cast Find Traps and have the Trapfinding ability, you automatically detect any trap with a DC of less than 20 within 60 feet of you.
Your cleric level stacks with your levels in the class that grants you sneak attack or skirmish to calculate your sneak attack or skirmish damage.

There. Enjoy!


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## MKMcArtor (Jan 4, 2007)

As with everything I write, there are definitely things I'd like to add or change with _Complete Scoundrel_, but I hope that what is out there is appealing enough that people like the book overall. 

To address some of the concerns and complaints I've seen so far in the thread...

*Divine/Rogue:* I wrote most of the feats for the book, including all of the multiclass combo feats. I apologize for missing that combination. Now that I play a cleric/rogue in Erik Mona's game, I can see where the support is woefully lacking for the combo. Oopsie!  

*Variant Class Features:* Wes and I wrote this before PHBII came out, and in fact we didn't even know about PHBII until the last few weeks of our work on the book. Had I known about variant class features earlier, I would have written dozens. Dozens, I say! I _love_ variant class features, as anyone who hangs out on the Paizo boards (or reads Class Acts) can attest to. This is one of those areas where I'd love to be able to go back. 

*Organizations v Affiliations:* Ditto above. Affiliations FTW.  

*Tricks:* IIRC, there's a little sidebar in there that talks about the difference between tricks and feats. Tricks are like feats-lite. They aren't as good as feats so they aren't feats. I don't think I'm helping here so I'm going to stop wri

*Luck:* I only wish characters got more feats, so they could take more luck feats, because luck is fun! 

*Short Prestige Classes:* I don't remember why we decided to go with shorter prestige classes. I also don't recall writing that many. I think some got widdled down in development to tighten the focus. Which, just from my own personal design philosophy, I really like. But YMMV.   

I'll be monitoring this thread to answer questions (well, those questions I can answer, anyway). So feel free to toss some at me.  

(But if you flame me I'll leave. )


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jan 4, 2007)

I don't like the idea of buying tricks with skill points - adding another sub-system into the game annoys me to no end.  I might consider allowing them every other level, or something along those lines.  In reality, though, I'd prefer to allow many of those kinds of things to anyone who buys the skills up to a certain point, and not make it cost anything extra.  Of course, it's also my view that things like Power Attack and Combat Expertise should be tactics that are available to any skilled combatant.


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## Cam Banks (Jan 4, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I don't like the idea of buying tricks with skill points - adding another sub-system into the game annoys me to no end.  I might consider allowing them every other level, or something along those lines.  In reality, though, I'd prefer to allow many of those kinds of things to anyone who buys the skills up to a certain point, and not make it cost anything extra.  Of course, it's also my view that things like Power Attack and Combat Expertise should be tactics that are available to any skilled combatant.




One option is to group them into pairs or triads of related tricks, and have a feat to access them, much like tactical feats in the Complete books. If the tricks don't have enough muscle all by themselves to work as feats, clusters of them should do the trick.

Alternately, buy a feat for a skill and get all of the tricks when you reach that number of ranks. They unlock as you go up levels, or something along those lines.

Cheers,
Cam


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## Kelvor Ravenstar (Jan 4, 2007)

I'm a bit unclear on the skill point cost for Tricks. Do they all cost 2 skill points (which are then used for buying tricks instead of skill ranks.) Would it be unbalanced to allow the skill characters to use the tricks without the skill point cost if they had the skill rank prerequisites? 

Because, you know, I never say to myself, "Gee I wish I had more places to spend my skill points."

I suppose these tricks are going to be best used for the Rogues with the more focused skill sets, rather than maxing out as many skills as your skill points and level will allow. They'll probably see more use at the mid to high level range, because after a certain point, not all of your chosen skills need to be maxed out to succeed most of the time.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2007)

MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> *Variant Class Features:* Wes and I wrote this before PHBII came out, and in fact we didn't even know about PHBII until the last few weeks of our work on the book. Had I known about variant class features earlier, I would have written dozens. Dozens, I say! I _love_ variant class features, as anyone who hangs out on the Paizo boards (or reads Class Acts) can attest to. This is one of those areas where I'd love to be able to go back.




He does, he really does!    



			
				MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> *Tricks:* IIRC, there's a little sidebar in there that talks about the difference between tricks and feats. Tricks are like feats-lite. They aren't as good as feats so they aren't feats. I don't think I'm helping here so I'm going to stop wri




Tricks alone have sold me on this book.  Combine this with Reserve Feats, and I'm completely sold on the latest round of Complete X products.



			
				MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> *Luck:* I only wish characters got more feats, so they could take more luck feats, because luck is fun!




Ditto.  Too many good feats, too little time, er, chances to take one.


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## Pbartender (Jan 4, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I don't like the idea of buying tricks with skill points - adding another sub-system into the game annoys me to no end.  I might consider allowing them every other level, or something along those lines.  In reality, though, I'd prefer to allow many of those kinds of things to anyone who buys the skills up to a certain point, and not make it cost anything extra.  Of course, it's also my view that things like Power Attack and Combat Expertise should be tactics that are available to any skilled combatant.




You should take a look through stunts and challenges from Iron Heroes...  Sounds like they'd be right up your alley.


----------



## Particle_Man (Jan 4, 2007)

MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> *Divine/Rogue:* I wrote most of the feats for the book, including all of the multiclass combo feats. I apologize for missing that combination. Now that I play a cleric/rogue in Erik Mona's game, I can see where the support is woefully lacking for the combo. Oopsie!
> 
> *Variant Class Features:* Wes and I wrote this before PHBII came out, and in fact we didn't even know about PHBII until the last few weeks of our work on the book. Had I known about variant class features earlier, I would have written dozens. Dozens, I say! I _love_ variant class features, as anyone who hangs out on the Paizo boards (or reads Class Acts) can attest to. This is one of those areas where I'd love to be able to go back.
> 
> *Organizations v Affiliations:* Ditto above. Affiliations FTW.




Well, if you are looking for ideas for Web Enhancements for Complete Scoundrel...  

Personally, I think Tricks might work for my character.  I have a Psion that will be increasing intelligence at 4th, 8th, etc.  This will result in more skill points, but not a heck of a lot of them.  Instead of buying up languages, or starting a new skill (I tend to max out the skills I get), I could see if there are any tricks to fit the bill.

Speaking of which, are there tricks for Psicraft, Autohypnosis, Knowledge (Psionics) and Use Psionic Device?


----------



## Kafkonia (Jan 4, 2007)

When I first saw the mention of tricks, I thought "Neat, more stuff for animal companions to do..."

Obviously I was mistaken.  But... is there any love for animal companions or (big stretch) familiars?


----------



## MKMcArtor (Jan 4, 2007)

Kelvor Ravenstar said:
			
		

> I'm a bit unclear on the skill point cost for Tricks. Do they all cost 2 skill points (which are then used for buying tricks instead of skill ranks.) Would it be unbalanced to allow the skill characters to use the tricks without the skill point cost if they had the skill rank prerequisites?




They all cost exactly 2 skill points (which, yes, you use for buying tricks instead of skill ranks). The balance thing is up to you and your DM, I suppose. You'll want to make sure to read the chapter first, of course. 



			
				Kelvor Ravenstar said:
			
		

> I suppose these tricks are going to be best used for the Rogues with the more focused skill sets, rather than maxing out as many skills as your skill points and level will allow. They'll probably see more use at the mid to high level range, because after a certain point, not all of your chosen skills need to be maxed out to succeed most of the time.




Yeah, they're mostly useful for the classes that have lots of skill points. That was intentional, since that's for whom we wrote the book. 



			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Well, if you are looking for ideas for Web Enhancements for Complete Scoundrel...




I'd love for Wizards of the Coast to ask me to do that. 



			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Speaking of which, are there tricks for Psicraft, Autohypnosis, Knowledge (Psionics) and Use Psionic Device?




Alas, although I tried to put in something for psionics in every portion I worked on, I think I failed in including psionic love with the tricks. Sorry!  



			
				Kafkonia said:
			
		

> When I first saw the mention of tricks, I thought "Neat, more stuff for animal companions to do..."




That would have been cool as well. If you're desperate for animal companion tricks, may I suggest _Dragon_ #323 (page 101)? 

/shameless plug   



			
				Kafkonia said:
			
		

> Obviously I was mistaken.  But... is there any love for animal companions or (big stretch) familiars?




There was going to be a prestige class that would have been right up your alley, but it got cut, IIRC. So, alas, no animal companions. While it probably would have been more appropriate for _Complete Mage_, I do believe there's yet another list of alternative familiars you can take with the Improved Familiar feat.


----------



## D.Shaffer (Jan 4, 2007)

Are there any tricks for use with Ride or Handle Animal?


----------



## blargney the second (Jan 4, 2007)

I love the idea of tricks: it's another way to utilize resources that characters get as they level up.  I've had some characters that occasionally had an extra pair of skill points for sale.


----------



## Beckett (Jan 4, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Beckett,
> 
> Yeah but some arcanists...okay ONE arcanist type is kind of skills oriented. I mean if you didn't have ranks in Spellcraft, you couldn't figure out what spell is being cast. Same with Knowledge (arcana)
> 
> Thus skill guys help!




Oh, I'm aware that the skill guys have their uses.  It's just my preference in characters (when I'm actually playing, a rarity as I'm better behind the screen) is wizards before rogues, so CM was of more interest than CS will be (and let me just say, I appreciate the new Complete books all using new letters for the title, so we don't end up with another mess like trying to contract Complete _A_dventurer and Complete _A_rcane).

My wife, on the other hand, loves rogues, so she should get a kick out of this book.


----------



## MoogleEmpMog (Jan 4, 2007)

I don't like the 'tricks cost skill points' mechanic because it reminds me of non-skill-system abilities crammed into the skill system in SilCore and, shockingly, HERO.  A few of the HERO "skills" are the only things in the entire system categorized by flavor (they're mundane abilities you learn to employ) rather than effect.  It sticks out like a sore thumb.

This gives me a similar vibe.

Nonetheless, the actual abilities sound very cool, and I like the idea of cramming a few related ones into a tactical feat.

I also very much like the short prestige classes.  A lot of PrCs look exciting just for their first few abilities, with the higher levels providing BAB/save/HD filler - or vice versa, with useless lower levels padding out one really interesting capstone ability.  I much prefer classes exactly as long as they have to be.


----------



## Pbartender (Jan 4, 2007)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> I also very much like the short prestige classes.  A lot of PrCs look exciting just for their first few abilities, with the higher levels providing BAB/save/HD filler - or vice versa, with useless lower levels padding out one really interesting capstone ability.  I much prefer classes exactly as long as they have to be.




It's also nice to be able to complete a PrC and get all the cool abilities before you get to 10th level or so...  Few campaigns last far enough into the late teens to do the same with 10 level PrCs.


----------



## Fingers Boggis (Jan 4, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Cloaked Dancer: 5 level: You dance and scare everyone around you. Maybe for a bard, with 2/5 arcane progression. Meh.




Any chance of some more info? Why Meh? This sounds like it has possible synergy with a bardic dervish I've been putting together so more info would be cool.

cheers
Fingers


----------



## EvolutionKB (Jan 4, 2007)

Can you give us some more details on the PrC's specifically the Combat Trapsmith and the 10 level psionic one?

MKMcArtor:  If you made a character using things from this book, what would you make and why?


----------



## Wraith-Hunter (Jan 4, 2007)

I for one really like the idea of Tricks.

The Feat Mechanic is WAY over done. And characters only get a very narrow number of feats to choose from. Anything that add on some stuff without using feats is cool. And it seems that WotC is ditching the use of useless feats no body would take for entry into a PrC. I'm really sick of feats being the only way to add to the mechanics.

Really what needs to be done is insert X = Class Ability every 4th or 5th level, and have a bunch to choose from, with weak ones for lower levels and better ones for higher. Feats are WAY over done.

I also really like the short PrC classes. Most builds just dip into them anyway and many of the 10 level ones seem like they are just stretching it out trying to make it last 10 levels, and people just dip as a result.

Will definitely pick it up. Just wish there were alternate class abilities, but since you didn't know about PHBII till the last few weeks I guess I can forgive you.


----------



## burnrate (Jan 4, 2007)

Wraith-Hunter said:
			
		

> I for one really like the idea of Tricks.
> 
> The Feat Mechanic is WAY over done. And characters only get a very narrow number of feats to choose from. Anything that add on some stuff without using feats is cool. And it seems that WotC is ditching the use of useless feats no body would take for entry into a PrC. I'm really sick of feats being the only way to add to the mechanics.




I agree - can't wait to see the detail on some of the tricks.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 5, 2007)

Mike,

Well that's cool if you do get a chance to do the web enhancement for this, that's what I want!  

In any case Mike, this book is still on the buy list for me.  *is also glad where you can see the support is lacking for that combo*

Psion,

Yeah well that's just for two classes. What about a Rogue/Cleric of say a CG/CN god of wrestling or something else? I mean there should be considerations for that too. I'm not meaning to diss you, Mike, just saying those options (at least in Core) should be a consideration. 

Claudio,

1,500 XP for your semi-fine use of a divine feat.


----------



## Greg K (Jan 5, 2007)

MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> *Variant Class Features:* Wes and I wrote this before PHBII came out, and in fact we didn't even know about PHBII until the last few weeks of our work on the book. Had I known about variant class features earlier, I would have written dozens. Dozens, I say! I _love_ variant class features, as anyone who hangs out on the Paizo boards (or reads Class Acts) can attest to. This is one of those areas where I'd love to be able to go back. )




So neither of you knew about the Fighter Thug variant (PHB 3.0 and 3.5), the Urban Ranger (first appeared in Masters of the Wild) and a little book called Unearthed Arcana all of which predate the PHB2?


----------



## Shroomy (Jan 5, 2007)

I think feats or support for a cleric/rogue combo would make an interesting "Class Acts" article.


----------



## Shroomy (Jan 5, 2007)

Greg K said:
			
		

> So neither of you knew about the Fighter Thug variant (PHB 3.0 and 3.5), the Urban Ranger (first appeared in Masters of the Wild) and a little book called Unearthed Arcana all of which predate the PHB2?




But those are variant classes, not variant class features.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 5, 2007)

Greg,

Yeah but the fact is even with that, the PHB II and Complete mage have been the only ones (in core) to make characters more like the ideal of certain classes/types.


----------



## Wrathamon (Jan 5, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Wayne,
> I was expecting, however, alternate class features.
> .




I think that is what the tricks are... it's not the exact same thing but I think it fills that spot in the book for new options.


----------



## Wrathamon (Jan 5, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I don't like the idea of buying tricks with skill points - adding another sub-system into the game annoys me to no end.  I might consider allowing them every other level, or something along those lines.  In reality, though, I'd prefer to allow many of those kinds of things to anyone who buys the skills up to a certain point, and not make it cost anything extra.  Of course, it's also my view that things like Power Attack and Combat Expertise should be tactics that are available to any skilled combatant.





Instead of every other level how about every 5 Ranks in a skill grants it automatically.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 5, 2007)

Wrath,

Yeah but as Mike said, he wishes he and his partner would have gone back and added to that. I'm not against having the trick features. I just think it might be cool to have alternate class features as well. Which we may still get IF WotC knows what's good for them.


----------



## Wraith Form (Jan 5, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Which we may still get IF WotC knows what's good for them.



Oooooh, that sounds so.....'scoundrelly' of you!


----------



## Greg K (Jan 5, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Greg,
> 
> Yeah but the fact is even with that, the PHB II and Complete mage have been the only ones (in core) to make characters more like the ideal of certain classes/types.




I am not sure what you mean by "(in core)".  Last I heard, the were only 3 core books :the PHB, DMG and MM.


----------



## Razz (Jan 5, 2007)

I agree, please do a Web Enhancement giving alternate roguish class features.


----------



## Greg K (Jan 5, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> But those are variant classes, not variant class features.




The variant classes are just several variant class features packaged together.  And, as for UA it offers both class variants and variant class features.

From UA
Fighter: gains sneak attack in exchange of bonus feats.  one class feature for another
Martial Rogue: gains bonus feats in exchange of sneak attack. one class feature for another
Sorcerer/Wizard: gain animal companion in exchange of familiar
Favored Environment: a variant for Favored Enemy
Planar Banishment: a variant for Turn Undead


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 5, 2007)

Greg,

You really are trying to get under my skin huh? *isn't mad or even annoyed just saying that so he (nightfall) can focus*

What I'm saying is the fact is UA isn't considered by many as "core" as the complete series or the additional PHB. 

UA was and is just the option people used to have more interest in making different things happen in their game. The Complete series and the PHB II were the ones to embrace it and therefore make it more "accessible" the public at large.


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2007)

What ambush feats are included?

I'm guessing some of those from Dragon #344 (Burning Link, Dazzling Strike, Eldritch Erosion, Flurry of Throws, Hinder, Lacerate, Painful Strike, Ring the Ear, Weaken the Heart) are included.

Also, since the following feats were created before the Ambush feat type was created, but function similiarly for all intents and purposes, I'm anticipating some of them have been included:

Arterial Strike (Complete Warrior)
Deep Poisoning (Dragon #322)
Hamstring (Complete Warrior)
Precise Strike (Dragon #310 and Dragon Compendium Volume One)
Staggering Strike (Races of Faerûn)


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Jan 5, 2007)

Wrathamon said:
			
		

> Instead of every other level how about every 5 Ranks in a skill grants it automatically.




Not a bad idea...


----------



## Stalker0 (Jan 5, 2007)

I like the idea of tricks and luck feats a lot.

To me, I don't care about a book that just gives me more feats, Prcs, and so forth...I can create those in my head. What I like is seeing new mechanics that bring fundamental changes to the game and doesn't expands the amount of options but the different types of options.

This trick mechanic and luck feats sound right up my alley.


----------



## Remathilis (Jan 5, 2007)

Hey EoTM, 

any good feats for a acrobat rogue? 

In fact, can you sum up the Acrobat rogue section from the beginning?


----------



## burnrate (Jan 5, 2007)

When you get a chance, I'm interested in hearing more about the swashbuckler/rogue combo as well as hearing about a few more of the luck feats. The luck feats sound like a fun set to build a character around.


----------



## Shadeydm (Jan 5, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Post Three:   Prestige classes
> 
> Cloaked Dancer: 5 level: You dance and scare everyone around you.




Wow I have been going through life never realizing that I must be a cloaked dancer judging by the looks of horror I see all around me when I "dance".


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 5, 2007)

How's the fluff? I've got a group that plays a band of shady adventurers, who are interested in defrauding, stealing and the like and I'm curious what sort of campaign advice, scenario creation advice and so on is available in this book.


----------



## Razz (Jan 5, 2007)

I second the question about what are the names of and a summary what they do for the Ambush feats?

I am hoping none are repeats from Dragon Magazine but brand news ones. A few repeats I can tolerate but I hope it's not ALL the feats from that Class Acts article.


----------



## MKMcArtor (Jan 5, 2007)

D.Shaffer said:
			
		

> Are there any tricks for use with Ride or Handle Animal?




I... don't remember. Wait, yes I do. I'm 98% positive there's one for Ride. I don't recall for Handle Animal, though. 



			
				EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> MKMcArtor:  If you made a character using things from this book, what would you make and why?




Hmm... that's a great question. The easy answer is a fighter/monk/ninja, using the multiclass feats from the book. But that's because I like the archetype. If allowed to use psionics, I'd want to try out the psionic prestige class, because I like what it does. But that would only work in an a roleplaying heavy campaign with lots of recurring NPCs, like an urban game. The psibond is not really meant for combat, despite the sneak attack part. A lucky character might also be a lot of fun, using the luck mechanic and the lucky prestige class. Lucky! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Well that's cool if you do get a chance to do the web enhancement for this, that's what I want!




Yeah, I'd enjoy doing a web enhancement for the book. Are you reading this thread, Wizards of the Coast?  



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> In any case Mike, this book is still on the buy list for me.  *is also glad where you can see the support is lacking for that combo*




Good to hear. Sorry for the lack of support.  



			
				Greg K said:
			
		

> So neither of you knew about the Fighter Thug variant (PHB 3.0 and 3.5), the Urban Ranger (first appeared in Masters of the Wild) and a little book called Unearthed Arcana all of which predate the PHB2?




Wow. Right, so, moving right along...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> What ambush feats are included?




Oh, I don't recall. There are some cool ones, I think. Well I guess I'm biased there, ne? 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm guessing some of those from Dragon #344 (Burning Link, Dazzling Strike, Eldritch Erosion, Flurry of Throws, Hinder, Lacerate, Painful Strike, Ring the Ear, Weaken the Heart) are included.




To my great frustration, we weren't allowed to reprint any of the existing ambush feats that Hal Maclean created (and who provided the name of ambush feats). I work very closely with Hal in my capacity of keeper of Class Acts, so when he wrote up the ambush feats article I really wanted to reprint some and give him props in the book. Unfortunately, I was told no on both accounts, so he gets no credit where credit is due. Let this post (and others I'll undoubtedly write this month) in some small measure give him his due respects. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Also, since the following feats were created before the Ambush feat type was created, but function similiarly for all intents and purposes, I'm anticipating some of them have been included:




IIRC, there's a sidebar that says something to the effect of "The following feats should also be considered ambush feats." There's a list, but I don't remember what's all on it. (In case you haven't guessed yet, my memory is splotchy at best.)


----------



## Wrathamon (Jan 5, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Wrath,
> 
> Yeah but as Mike said, he wishes he and his partner would have gone back and added to that. I'm not against having the trick features. I just think it might be cool to have alternate class features as well. Which we may still get IF WotC knows what's good for them.




I think that would be cool as well... maybe a Web Enchancement or Dragon Article


----------



## Wrathamon (Jan 5, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Not a bad idea...




thanks


----------



## starwed (Jan 5, 2007)

> What I like is seeing new mechanics that bring fundamental changes to the game and doesn't expands the amount of options but the different types of options.



Agreed.  This sounds like a great idea, and it's easy to adjust the balance by changing the skill point cost.


----------



## Jolly Giant (Jan 5, 2007)

This sounds really interesting! It looks like I'll be buying my very first Complete book in the near future.    (I've got Comp. Adv. and Comp. Arc., but they were X-mas gifts; I didn't _buy _ them.)

I particularly like the tricks mechanic, and the concept for the luck feats. I'm also partial to dipper PrCs (3 or 5 level classes); I so rarely get a chance to complete a 10 level class.


----------



## EvolutionKB (Jan 5, 2007)

Mike,

Last question, on the WotC website they just released the excerpt, and I am curious about your answer to my previous question (Hmm... that's a great question. The easy answer is a fighter/monk/ninja, using the multiclass feats from the book. But that's because I like the archetype) with the description of the feat from the feat list.  When it says levels stack for feats and ki pool for example does that mean that one could take levels in fighter and ninja and would gain the bonus feats from fighter OR just qualify for feats like greater weapon spec like they were a 12th level fighter instead of a ninja8/fighter4

Thanks for answering questions and posting on here, it is always good to hear things from the author's POV


----------



## Razz (Jan 5, 2007)

MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> To my great frustration, we weren't allowed to reprint any of the existing ambush feats that Hal Maclean created (and who provided the name of ambush feats). I work very closely with Hal in my capacity of keeper of Class Acts, so when he wrote up the ambush feats article I really wanted to reprint some and give him props in the book. Unfortunately, I was told no on both accounts, so he gets no credit where credit is due. Let this post (and others I'll undoubtedly write this month) in some small measure give him his due respects.




Hmm...strange. Why is it, then, that one of the feats Hal wrote actually did end up in the book? It's the one called Eldritch Erosion, you sneak attack and can decrease an enemy's spell/power resistance. Shouldn't he get credit for it? It's on the excerpts on the website here under Ambush feats: *Complete Scoundrel Excerpt*


----------



## Razz (Jan 5, 2007)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> Last question, on the WotC website they just released the excerpt, and I am curious about your answer to my previous question (Hmm... that's a great question. The easy answer is a fighter/monk/ninja, using the multiclass feats from the book. But that's because I like the archetype) with the description of the feat from the feat list.  When it says levels stack for feats and ki pool for example does that mean that one could take levels in fighter and ninja and would gain the bonus feats from fighter OR just qualify for feats like greater weapon spec like they were a 12th level fighter instead of a ninja8/fighter4
> 
> Thanks for answering questions and posting on here, it is always good to hear things from the author's POV




Well it says Bonus Feats so I assume it's just that. Extra feats above and beyond the normal amount.

If this is true...that fighter/monk/ninja with those two feats (the monk/ninja and fighter/ninja one) will be insane...and probably the type of ninja people always wanted!


----------



## Particle_Man (Jan 6, 2007)

Do Bluff and Concentration have tricks?


----------



## blargney the second (Jan 6, 2007)

I just read the CS excerpt: OMGBBQ!  I *love* what they did with tricks.  Some of them made me drool - I've got characters that desperately need some of them.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Jan 6, 2007)

Looking over the excerpts, there's a lot of good tricks I can think of using for a Swordsage to do even more neat stuff.


----------



## Remathilis (Jan 6, 2007)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> Hey EoTM,
> 
> any good feats for a acrobat rogue?
> 
> In fact, can you sum up the Acrobat rogue section from the beginning?




Well well well, ask and ye shall recieve!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=2

I'm beginning to think the WotC web team reads these threads and adjusts there excerpts based on them...


----------



## EyeontheMountain (Jan 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> What ambush feats are included?
> 
> I'm guessing some of those from Dragon #344 (Burning Link, Dazzling Strike, Eldritch Erosion, Flurry of Throws, Hinder, Lacerate, Painful Strike, Ring the Ear, Weaken the Heart) are included.
> 
> ...




The two from Complete warrior are mentioned as ambush feats. As for the dragon ones, one is in there. I don't think I would count on a lot of Dragon stuff being reprinted in a regular book. \Wizards doesn't seem to do that often.


----------



## EyeontheMountain (Jan 6, 2007)

MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> IIRC, there's a sidebar that says something to the effect of "The following feats should also be considered ambush feats." There's a list, but I don't remember what's all on it. (In case you haven't guessed yet, my memory is splotchy at best.)




I would be curious to know how much the book changed from what you handed in and when it was printed. But I imagine you do not have the book yet.


----------



## timespike (Jan 6, 2007)

What exactly does the Grey Guard DO? I understand it's the Vic Mackey of the paladin world, but what does it DO?


----------



## Particle_Man (Jan 6, 2007)

...


----------



## MKMcArtor (Jan 6, 2007)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> When it says levels stack for feats and ki pool for example does that mean that one could take levels in fighter and ninja and would gain the bonus feats from fighter OR just qualify for feats like greater weapon spec like they were a 12th level fighter instead of a ninja8/fighter4




My intent was for the feat to gain the bonus feats of the fighter, as Razz mentioned earlier. That might be a little bit too good, but keep in mind you're still only getting the d6 of the ninja mixed in there as well (not to mention only being allowed to wear light armor—or is it no armor?). It pretty much allows for the ninja character I always wanted to play. 



			
				EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> Thanks for answering questions and posting on here, it is always good to hear things from the author's POV




No problem! I enjoy it and I wish this sort of thing happened more back before I got into the industry. I would have eaten it up! 



			
				Razz said:
			
		

> Hmm...strange. Why is it, then, that one of the feats Hal wrote actually did end up in the book? It's the one called Eldritch Erosion, you sneak attack and can decrease an enemy's spell/power resistance. Shouldn't he get credit for it? It's on the excerpts on the website here under Ambush feats: *Complete Scoundrel Excerpt*




Well look at that! Yay! Sadly, he still didn't get credit for it. You'll need to talk to the fine folks at Wizards of the Coast about that. 



			
				Razz said:
			
		

> Well it says Bonus Feats so I assume it's just that. Extra feats above and beyond the normal amount.
> 
> If this is true...that fighter/monk/ninja with those two feats (the monk/ninja and fighter/ninja one) will be insane...and probably the type of ninja people always wanted!




Exactamundo!



			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Do Bluff and Concentration have tricks?




IIRC, yes. At least Bluff does, I think. Wes came up with a good many interaction tricks, and I'm pretty sure at least one of them uses Bluff.



			
				EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> I would be curious to know how much the book changed from what you handed in and when it was printed. But I imagine you do not have the book yet.




Well, I can't talk about that too much. I've seen the final text of the book (although, as you might have guessed I don't remember every exact detail of it), and I'm very happy with how it came out. The tricks system underwent the most radical changes (my original turnover had variable-costed tricks that would have made buying them unrealistic, in retrospect), but that's the nature of development. Andy Collins was really cool to work with and we hammered out the system as you see it now. The prestige classes underwent some changes as well (and a couple I wrote got cut whole cloth), but overall I like what they did. I remember writing several 5-level and one or two 3-level prestige classes, for example, but I don't remember writing _that_ many. So I think some got cut down, but frankly I prefer shorter prestige classes anyway. 



			
				timespike said:
			
		

> What exactly does the Grey Guard DO? I understand it's the Vic Mackey of the paladin world, but what does it DO?




Er... I don't recall, exactly. Wes would be the one to talk more about that. Or EyeontheMountain, of course. 

...

Feel free to throw any more questions at me, everyone. I might even remember to check this thread over the weekend!


----------



## Particle_Man (Jan 6, 2007)

Hexblade love question here:

How many spells of each level? And which of them both have saving throws and belong to the enchantment or transmutation or necromancy schools?


----------



## EyeontheMountain (Jan 6, 2007)

timespike said:
			
		

> What exactly does the Grey Guard DO? I understand it's the Vic Mackey of the paladin world, but what does it DO?




Well, let me go more into it, then,

Requirements
Lawful good
Know-religion 8 ranks; Sense Motive 4 ranks
Lay on hands class feature
Special: Must adhere to a code of condut that prevents you from doing evil acts.

Note: I don't know any other class that would qualify, though a paladin multiclass could of course.

Abilities
5/10 divine progression on even levels
Full BAB, good Fort, will.
d10 hit points

Main ability: Sacrament of Trust. (Paraphrased heavily) You still lose paladin and Grey Guard abilities when you commin dishonorable acts butthe infraction is much less than for a paladin. When you atone for deeds, the atonement caster need not spend 500 xp if the acts were intended to further the cause of your faith.

Lay on hands GGG levels stack with Paladin.
Debilitating touch. Spend 5 lay on hands points to sicken your target for 5 rounds unless they make a save. 
Smite evil at 3rd and 8th, levels of GGG stack with paladins for damage.
Justice blade: Smite Chaotic if you like using your smite evil attempts. Can still be wasted though
Unbound justice: Add half your GG class level to BLuff, Disguise, Intimidate(All class skills)
Justice blade: All faiths Smite anyone without declaring alignment ahead of time. Yes, even your lawful good paladin buddy you have knoown since you were 4.  

Capstone: Sarament of the true faith: You never risk losing your class abilities or having to atone for your conduct. You are still expected to be an exempler of your faith. Church elders can still might revoke your abilities. No auto-loss though. 

Also levels of this class count as paladin levels for blackguards

I see more paladin conduct threads in the future.


----------



## EyeontheMountain (Jan 6, 2007)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Hexblade love question here:
> 
> How many spells of each level? And which of them both have saving throws and belong to the enchantment or transmutation or necromancy schools?




Hexblade:
1st: Armor Lockk: Slows a target in armor.
1st: Mage Burr: Double a target's arcane failure chance due to armor.

4th: Spoell Theft: Dispel effects on others and steal benefits for yourself.

Jsut three.


----------



## Eytan Bernstein (Jan 6, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Wand Modulation is interesting, as you can casue a wand to cast a diffferent spell (at least one level lower) than it was built to cast.  Interesting, though you need to cast the new spell on the wand immediately.



Wand Modulation just sounds raunchy to me.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jan 6, 2007)

Jolly Giant said:
			
		

> I'm also partial to dipper PrCs (3 or 5 level classes); I so rarely get a chance to complete a 10 level class.




I am also a big of the dipper Prcs. Give me a chance to slightly adjust my character from the base class, without having to nose dive in another direction. Also, the fact that designer aren't slaved to a 10 level design make it easier to balance out abilities.


----------



## Koz (Jan 6, 2007)

Well I've been really looking forward to this book I've got to say.  I was really hoping for at least one Bard prestige class though, but it looks like we're not getting one.  That's very disapointing, was there a reason one was not included?  Bards are every bit the Scoundrel that Rogues are and should've been given some decent attention.  I'm glad to see there are some feats for them, but still, I REALLY wanted a good prestige class.

Anyway, I like what else I've seen so far and am still excited to see the book.

Koz


----------



## Mercule (Jan 6, 2007)

el-remmen said:
			
		

> On second thought, however, I think they add a layer of complexity to the rules that their appeal cannot make up for.




That was my thought.  They're feats that cost skill points instead of feat points.  If I wanted interchangible character points, I'd play Hero.

If I get the book (unlikely), I'll probably either make the feats with minimum skill requirements or disallow them entirely.


----------



## Sir Brennen (Jan 6, 2007)

So it looks like with Tricks, at 1/level, total not to exceed 1/2 level, you're still only burning 1 skill point per level *max*, barring taking certain Trick-related feats. And even though that's a big hit for classes like the fighter... hey, if he don't have the Int for bonus skill points, he probably isn't smart enough to learn any fancy tricks anyway   

Personally, I don't think the "added complexity" is that big a deal, considering it's something that only has to be figured out at level-up. After that, just use your tricks and have fun!

My ranger/scout drools at the thought of the trick to charge around corners, and feats to stack his class levels for Skirmish and Favored Enemy, plus +2d6 +2 AC for moving 20'. I think I may have to get him a scythe to top it all off


----------



## Klaus (Jan 6, 2007)

Already I'm thinking of several feats that could be turned into Tricks. For example, Acrobatic Strike, Combat Acrobat and the other "news skill uses" feats from the PHBII.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Jan 6, 2007)

After reading the excerpts I'm wondering how would the trick Walk the Walls and Wall Jumper work.

Does Walk the Walls only allow vertical movement straight up, unlike the psionic feat Up The Walls which allows any movement along a wall?

Is Wall Jumper where a character uses a wall as "step" for a higher jump?


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jan 6, 2007)

el-remmen said:
			
		

> On second thought, however, I think they add a layer of complexity to the rules that their appeal cannot make up for.




Bingo.

It's why I sometimes prefer something like Hero where all the rules are in the core book and the various source books are ways to use those rules as opposed to just pulling new tricks out of the ether. Mind you some of these rules are solid, but they add layers and layers of complexity. Action Points and Tricks and Swift and Immediate Actions, etc... 

Becomes confusing after a while even for an experienced player, much less GM.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Jan 6, 2007)

Also does the Conceal Spellcasting allow you to cast spells completely un-noticed?

Meaning that you could discretely cast some sort of enchantment spell on someone to take control of them withouth anyone noticing.


----------



## blargney the second (Jan 6, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> That was my thought.  They're feats that cost skill points instead of feat points.  If I wanted interchangible character points, I'd play Hero.



That's funny: the exact same thing that makes you dislike it is the exact same reason I *do* like it.

Feat slots are few and far between: when you spend them it should do something significant to your characters.  Everybody gets more skill points, and I think it's very cool that you can use them to get tricks because some abilities aren't worth an entire feat, but are still useful to have!


----------



## EyeontheMountain (Jan 6, 2007)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> Also does the Conceal Spellcasting allow you to cast spells completely un-noticed?
> 
> Meaning that you could discretely cast some sort of enchantment spell on someone to take control of them withouth anyone noticing.




You oppose your sleight of hand check against your opponent's spot check. If you win, they do not know you are casting a spell, and cannot counter you or get an AoO on you for casting.

I think we'll see people taking mroe sleight of hand ranks now, as a lot of the sleight of hand tricks are pretty good.


----------



## EyeontheMountain (Jan 6, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Feat slots are few and far between: when you spend them it should do something significant to your characters.  Everybody gets more skill points, and I think it's very cool that you can use them to get tricks because some abilities aren't worth an entire feat, but are still useful to have!




I really agree withthe above. Tricks are a lot cheaper tahn feats for any class. Sure everyone wants mroe skills, but even a fighter withtheir poor sklill selection could grab one or two tricks (not much else to spend them on) anda rogue with better skill points, could really sue a lot of these tricks. They are really quite good and I hope we see more in Complete Champion.


----------



## EvolutionKB (Jan 7, 2007)

You could do this to some extent(I don't have CS yet to see how different it is)with the alternate skill usage for Sleight of Hand in Races of Stone.


----------



## Furry (Jan 7, 2007)

I think I have to start a character with Conceal Spellcasting and Invisible Spell...Wha Happen??


----------



## timespike (Jan 7, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Also levels of this class count as paladin levels for blackguards




Interesting. That makes two (Shadowbane Inquisitor being the other.)


----------



## Klaus (Jan 8, 2007)

The feat list posted at WotC's lists Improved Familiar. What are does CS add to it?


----------



## Banshee16 (Jan 8, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> The feat list posted at WotC's lists Improved Familiar. What are does CS add to it?




It would be nice if the towed the line with some of the other D20 publishers....there are so many variants of "Improved Familiar" now.  Some books like the Green Ronin Shaman book, allow for medium sized familiars, and the Feat prereq is lvl 5.  I'd love if WotC allowed the Improved Familiar feat to allow for something like a wolf or leopard or something, instead of only pseudodragons, formians, and other fantastical creatures.

Banshee


----------



## MKMcArtor (Jan 8, 2007)

Koz said:
			
		

> I was really hoping for at least one Bard prestige class though, but it looks like we're not getting one.  That's very disapointing, was there a reason one was not included?




The short answer is: I couldn't think of any.   That said, there are prestige classes that, IIRC, a bard most easily qualifies for (like the cloaked dancer, for example). Rest assured, Wes and I are not anti-bard. We're more of the "what do you do with these guys?" camp.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jan 8, 2007)

MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> The short answer is: I couldn't think of any.   That said, there are prestige classes that, IIRC, a bard most easily qualifies for (like the cloaked dancer, for example). Rest assured, Wes and I are not anti-bard. We're more of the "what do you do with these guys?" camp.




Any Gallant updates from the old bard's Handbook? Or the old blade guy who used to twist around? The old Bard's Handbook had quite a few excellent PrCs that I still don't think have been updated.


----------



## brehobit (Jan 8, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Any Gallant updates from the old bard's Handbook? Or the old blade guy who used to twist around? The old Bard's Handbook had quite a few excellent PrCs that I still don't think have been updated.



The Gallant was wonderful, if a bit silly.  I loved playing one!  3rd edition update would rock.



Mark


----------



## Shemeska (Jan 9, 2007)

So for anyone with the book, what all is mentioned about the Free League / Indeps in the organizations section? I noticed their symbol in the book's art gallery, so I'm rather curious.


----------



## scrubkai (Jan 9, 2007)

For anyone who has the book:
Can you give me more information about the Nimble Stand skill trick?  Does it allow you to always stand up without provoking an AoO, or is there a limit to the number of times per combat it can be used?

Also can the skill tricks Nimble Stand and Back on Your Feet be combined to allow you to stand as a swift action without provoking an AoO?

I hate when my warblade get tripped by a chain tripper.  It sounds like these skill tricks would be a good counter to that tactic.


----------



## Kurotowa (Jan 9, 2007)

Speaking of the art gallery, is the Mindspy a PrC that got dropped or did the OP just not mention it?


----------



## Tweedledope (Jan 9, 2007)

Kurotowa said:
			
		

> Speaking of the art gallery, is the Mindspy a PrC that got dropped or did the OP just not mention it?



Or, even moreso, did they remake said PrC?


----------



## MKMcArtor (Jan 9, 2007)

Kurotowa said:
			
		

> Speaking of the art gallery, is the Mindspy a PrC that got dropped or did the OP just not mention it?




It got renamed the psibond agent. The "Mindspy" title of that piece is the fault of the idjit who wrote that part of the art order.

...
Mike McArtor
Idjit


----------



## MKMcArtor (Jan 9, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Any Gallant updates from the old bard's Handbook? Or the old blade guy who used to twist around? The old Bard's Handbook had quite a few excellent PrCs that I still don't think have been updated.




None of those, unfortunately. There was a conscious effort dictated to us by Wizards of the Coast to not reprint what came before. Although we took that mostly to mean earlier third edition stuff, we also avoided redoing stuff from older editions. 

And also, to be honest, I don't think I ever owned _Complete Book of Bards_ because, you know, bards.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jan 9, 2007)

MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> None of those, unfortunately. There was a conscious effort dictated to us by Wizards of the Coast to not reprint what came before. Although we took that mostly to mean earlier third edition stuff, we also avoided redoing stuff from older editions.
> 
> And also, to be honest, I don't think I ever owned _Complete Book of Bards_ because, you know, bards.




Ah, but the problem there is that the old Complete Book of Bards actually made them cool by giving the reader many options.

And not reprinting what came before? Is that something new for this book? I mean, how many times has the Bladesinger been updated in 3.0 and 3.5? How much material from the various 96 page books made it's way into the 192 now 160 page books?

Seems an odd thing to say given the reworking of demon and devil lords just done in the two books of fiends for example.


----------



## Wraith-Hunter (Jan 10, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> That was my thought.  They're feats that cost skill points instead of feat points.  If I wanted interchangible character points, I'd play Hero.
> 
> If I get the book (unlikely), I'll probably either make the feats with minimum skill requirements or disallow them entirely.




Any rule or new mechanic that is not a Feat is a good thing. WAY TOO many feats and too few feat slots. I'm very much looking forward to seeing the new tricks and such.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm thinking of allowing any character to use a trick that they qualify for without spending skill points, but requiring an action point to trigger it.  This of course comes without having looked at the book yet, of course...


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Jan 10, 2007)

Wraith-Hunter said:
			
		

> Any rule or new mechanic that is not a Feat is a good thing. WAY TOO many feats and too few feat slots. I'm very much looking forward to seeing the new tricks and such.




Speak it!

"Great, more feats that I won't be able to do anything with because I (a) don't have the slots and (b) don't have the prereqs for ANYWAY!"

Brad


----------



## BryonD (Jan 10, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I'm thinking of allowing any character to use a trick that they qualify for without spending skill points, but requiring an action point to trigger it.  This of course comes without having looked at the book yet, of course...



Since it is pretty standard to allow a character to emulate a feat for a round with an AP, I certainly don't think this would be a problem.  If anything, this would be short-selling the AP.


----------



## MerricB (Jan 10, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> It would be nice if the towed the line with some of the other D20 publishers....there are so many variants of "Improved Familiar" now.  Some books like the Green Ronin Shaman book, allow for medium sized familiars, and the Feat prereq is lvl 5.  I'd love if WotC allowed the Improved Familiar feat to allow for something like a wolf or leopard or something, instead of only pseudodragons, formians, and other fantastical creatures.




Err... Complete Warrior, which came out in December 2003, gave
* Worg
* Krenshar
* Blink Dog
* Hell Hound
* Hippogriff
* Howler
* Winter Wolf.

Cheers!


----------



## Razz (Jan 10, 2007)

I got my Complete Scoundrel yesterday!

So, yeah, I can answer questions too.

Unfortunately for the Martial Stalker (and the other "multiclass stacking feats") that involve the Fighter class, no, you do not get Bonus Feats of a Fighter with the levels stacked, you only get access to level prerequisites of the Fighter only feats such as Greater Weapon Focus, etc.

Total bummer


----------



## EvolutionKB (Jan 10, 2007)

Razz,

I am looking for some feats for my warlock/cleric/eldritch diciple(focusing on persistant spells and eldritch glaive).  Anything in there that would be any use(especially of the luck variety bec I have the luck domain)?  What about PrC that would give +1 divine CL or invoking CL


----------



## Banshee16 (Jan 10, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Err... Complete Warrior, which came out in December 2003, gave
> * Worg
> * Krenshar
> * Blink Dog
> ...




Well, I guess that would be the one book I don't have..
Of course, if Worgs and Winter Wolves are options (both evil), then something like a leopard or regular wolf would be a shoe-in.

Banshee


----------



## Klaus (Jan 10, 2007)

Please, someone with the book:

What does Complete Scoundrel add to Improved Familiar?


----------



## MerricB (Jan 10, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Well, I guess that would be the one book I don't have..
> Of course, if Worgs and Winter Wolves are options (both evil), then something like a leopard or regular wolf would be a shoe-in.




Actually, if I was part of the D&D design team, I'd say no to that.

The reason being this: larger animal companions are part of the druid and ranger classes. The wizard gets stranger, more magical beasts.

For a wizard to have a wolf as a familar, play the Arcane Hierophant (Druid/Wizard multiclass) from Races of the Wild. (I have one in my campaign at present, in fact!)

Cheers!


----------



## Klaus (Jan 10, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Actually, if I was part of the D&D design team, I'd say no to that.
> 
> The reason being this: larger animal companions are part of the druid and ranger classes. The wizard gets stranger, more magical beasts.
> 
> ...



 Or trade in the familiar feature for the Animal Companion feature at 1/2 class level, as per Unearthed Arcana.


----------



## Sir Brennen (Jan 10, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I'm thinking of allowing any character to use a trick that they qualify for without spending skill points, but requiring an action point to trigger it.  This of course comes without having looked at the book yet, of course...



Unless you have action points "refresh" more often than once per level, this'll probably be very underused, as players save their points for the more important "standard" uses. As BryonD mentions, it sort of short-sells APs.

Conversely, if you increase the pool of action points available, things may become unbalanced in the other direction, as players still use more points for more "important" rolls/actions.

Differentiating between the type of points that can be spent on Tricks vs. normal Action! then leads to the path of added complexity, in which case you might as well stick with the rules as presented for Tricks


----------



## Razz (Jan 10, 2007)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> Razz,
> 
> I am looking for some feats for my warlock/cleric/eldritch diciple(focusing on persistant spells and eldritch glaive).  Anything in there that would be any use(especially of the luck variety bec I have the luck domain)?  What about PrC that would give +1 divine CL or invoking CL




From the look at the PrC I don't see anything that's adaptable for the Warlock. When I give it a more thorough read I'll be able to answer your question easier, but so far I see nothing that says "Definitely a must for Warlock".


----------



## Razz (Jan 10, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Please, someone with the book:
> 
> What does Complete Scoundrel add to Improved Familiar?




Badger
Small Monstrous Centipede
Small Monstrous Scorpion
Small Monstrous Spider
Medium Viper
Vargouille (loses kiss ability)
Mephit (any)


----------



## Psion (Jan 10, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> The Gallant was wonderful, if a bit silly.  I loved playing one!  3rd edition update would rock.




I hope this is one of the old school updates Wil Upchurch wrote for the Wizards' site. The gallant is certainly no sillier than the halfling whistler...


----------



## Psion (Jan 10, 2007)

(Improved familiar list...)



			
				Razz said:
			
		

> Mephit (any)




Oh, that sounds like mischief on the hoof.


----------



## Particle_Man (Jan 10, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Vargouille (loses kiss ability)




A familiar that is a flying head.  That is hilarious!


----------



## D.Shaffer (Jan 10, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Badger



Badger? Badger! We dont need no stinking badger!
...
Unless it's got really good stats.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Jan 10, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> The Psibond Agent 10 level. This psionic one is just.... weird. You make a bond with someone, and you can see through their eyes, get empathy, nudge them and eventually dominate them. But you have to concentrate all the time on them. Also you get sneak attack. I really do not understand this class.



If my suspicions are correct, this sounds hella cool.  Want to know what Lord Such-And-Such is planning with Duke Whats-His-Name?  Turn the butler into an unknowing spy.  You see through his eyes, hear through his ears, and then exert control over him at the right moment so he steals the secret plans and drops them off the castle wall into your waiting hands.

Of course, I might be wrong, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.  It's the Manchurian prestige class.


----------



## Psion (Jan 10, 2007)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> If my suspicions are correct, this sounds hella cool.  Want to know what Lord Such-And-Such is planning with Duke Whats-His-Name?  Turn the butler into an unknowing spy.  You see through his eyes, hear through his ears, and then exert control over him at the right moment so he steals the secret plans and drops them off the castle wall into your waiting hands.
> 
> Of course, I might be wrong, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.  It's the Manchurian prestige class.




That does sound cool.

C'mon, USPS!


----------



## Remathilis (Jan 10, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Badger
> Medium Viper




Damn. No Mushroom!


----------



## MKMcArtor (Jan 10, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And not reprinting what came before? Is that something new for this book?




It was, actually. When we sat down with Chris Perkins and Matt Sernett, one of the first things Chris said was something about getting lots of negative feedback about all the reprinted material. 



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Seems an odd thing to say given the reworking of demon and devil lords just done in the two books of fiends for example.




Well, I had no hand in either of those, so I have no comment. 



			
				Razz said:
			
		

> From the look at the PrC I don't see anything that's adaptable for the Warlock. When I give it a more thorough read I'll be able to answer your question easier, but so far I see nothing that says "Definitely a must for Warlock".




Naw, nothing in the book for the warlock. Two reasons: 1) We knew _Complete Mage_ was being written and 2) I abhor the class.  Wes might like the class, but I don't know.


----------



## Shade (Jan 10, 2007)

I could be wrong, but my impression on the "no reprints" philosophy is due to this essentially being the second wave of Complete Warrior/Arcane/Adventurer/Divine.   I seem to remember this being a selling point when Complete Mage was first announced.   This was probably to alleviate concerns that the first wave wasn't "complete". 

Regardless, I don't think updated material from past editions would be a reprint for this purpose, but culling from Dragon and other sourcebooks would.   Either way, I'm quite impressed with Complete Mage and from the looks of the preview and the contents of this thread, Complete Scoundrel sounds even better.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Jan 11, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> Unless you have action points "refresh" more often than once per level, this'll probably be very underused, as players save their points for the more important "standard" uses. As BryonD mentions, it sort of short-sells APs.




The games I'm in that use them, I can't seem to find enough ways to spend them.


----------



## EvolutionKB (Jan 11, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> The games I'm in that use them, I can't seem to find enough ways to spend them.





Most the time, especially at high levels, we don't even use them all, and when we do, it's from action surge.  Keep in mind we only use AP feats and you can use an AP to stabilize and mod a d20.


----------



## BryonD (Jan 11, 2007)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> Most the time, especially at high levels, we don't even use them all, and when we do, it's from action surge.  Keep in mind we only use AP feats and you can use an AP to stabilize and mod a d20.



Really? 
Wow, they go through them like candy in my games....

Sounds like the DM is to soft.


----------



## EvolutionKB (Jan 11, 2007)

...Or are characters are so uber, we hardly ever need them


----------



## Razz (Jan 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I could be wrong, but my impression on the "no reprints" philosophy is due to this essentially being the second wave of Complete Warrior/Arcane/Adventurer/Divine.   I seem to remember this being a selling point when Complete Mage was first announced.   This was probably to alleviate concerns that the first wave wasn't "complete".
> 
> Regardless, I don't think updated material from past editions would be a reprint for this purpose, but culling from Dragon and other sourcebooks would.   Either way, I'm quite impressed with Complete Mage and from the looks of the preview and the contents of this thread, Complete Scoundrel sounds even better.




I agree with this. When I think of "reprints" I think of material printed in the books that was already printed in, say, a book I purchased 2 months ago. A little reprinting isn't so bad, but I have seen a couple of D&D 3.5 books where the reprints were a large handful of it. Also too much material from Dragon Magazine is another.

But taking material from 1E and 2E and revamping it to 3.5E I am all for, and I am sure almost everyone else out there is for, too. Heck, that's why *Dragon Compendium* sold so well.


----------



## Particle_Man (Jan 11, 2007)

No reprints?  But I want 3.5 modrons, dammit!


----------



## Razz (Jan 11, 2007)

MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> 2) I abhor the class.  Wes might like the class, but I don't know.




Aww, Mike, it's a really fun class. You should give it a try. Did some Warlock PC or NPC made your character's feelings hurt? If so, I can understand. 

Cause I do it to my players or they do it to themselves all the time   heh heh


----------



## Razz (Jan 11, 2007)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> No reprints?  But I want 3.5 modrons, dammit!




Here's a paddle, get on the boat with the rest of us


----------



## Pazu (Jan 13, 2007)

Has this book actually had its official release yet?


----------



## Psion (Jan 14, 2007)

Finally got mine today.

So far, I like it. I really think it hits the mark on the "book for all classes" department in a way few others in the series have. It seems like it will slot into my brand of social-and-skill based play in a way that few other books in the "back to the dungeon" era have.

I continue to appreciate the sample characters for the prestige classes. This is a particularly interesting batch. Nice little wink to the Dungeon adventure with a revamped Swan Street Slayer there. Did the text even point out that was from an adventure? Other sample characters amused me, showing me a bit more creativity that what I expect from stock characters.

Tricks... I still think they should be feats, sorry. But I can understand why they weren't. I'm one of those people on the "there aren't enough feats" bandwagon. The authors had their way of surmounting the limitation, I have mine. I could see tricks slipping in as my "lesser" feats.


----------



## |)ar|{ (Jan 14, 2007)

Could I trouble someone to post the luck feats and a little more about the fortune's friend class?  Trying to get luck domain cleric together for a game and CS still isn't in the local store.  Thanks in advance
-Dark


----------



## MKMcArtor (Jan 14, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Aww, Mike, it's a really fun class. You should give it a try. Did some Warlock PC or NPC made your character's feelings hurt? If so, I can understand.
> 
> Cause I do it to my players or they do it to themselves all the time   heh heh




A warlock kicked my puppy. 



			
				Razz said:
			
		

> Here's a paddle, get on the boat with the rest of us




*grabs a paddle*



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> I continue to appreciate the sample characters for the prestige classes. This is a particularly interesting batch. Nice little wink to the Dungeon adventure with a revamped Swan Street Slayer there. Did the text even point out that was from an adventure? Other sample characters amused me, showing me a bit more creativity that what I expect from stock characters.




Thanks, I'm glad you liked our sample characters!  Wes put in the revamped Swan Street Slayer. He knows a lot more about continuity in D&D than I do.


----------



## Li Shenron (Jan 14, 2007)

Psion said:
			
		

> Tricks... I still think they should be feats, sorry. But I can understand why they weren't. I'm one of those people on the "there aren't enough feats" bandwagon. The authors had their way of surmounting the limitation, I have mine. I could see tricks slipping in as my "lesser" feats.




That's what I thought too: these tricks seem to be one-time abilities like feats, but with a benefit that isn't definitely worth spending a whole feat. Furthermore, they probably thought that since these tricks cover skill usage, they are more appropriate for skillful characters (Rogues first) who don't have bonus feats but can spend some of their many skill points.

Incidentally, Speak Language could be the precursor of tricks since it costs 2 skill points (except for Bards).

But IMO the mistake (which is clearly mentioned in the CSco preview) is to think that characters were not able to do these stunts before, and now they are...

We've always had characters swinging from chandeliers or using whips like Indiana Jones, these actions need nothing more than a skill check, and the only DM job needed is to assign a proper DC.

But maybe nowadays the most popular school of thought is that "if it ain't written, it can' be in your game".


----------



## Razz (Jan 14, 2007)

After looking over Skill Tricks I do agree with some here. Some of the skill tricks would've actually made great feats. The others were either already created as feats or are fine as skill tricks. 

Here's what I think should've been or already are feats:

*INTERACTION*
Group Fake-Out
Never Outnumbered
Timely Misdirection

*MANIPULATION*
Conceal Spellcasting (I believe this was already done as a feat, can't remember where)
Easy Escape (already done as a feat called Clever Wrestling)
Hidden Blade (they have a feat called Flick of the Wrist that does this I believe)
Mosquito's Bite
Quick Escape

*MENTAL*
Magical Appraisal (there's a feat either in Complete Arcane or Complete Mage that does this already)
Spot the Weak Point (there's a feat in Draconomicon called that is similar to this, it ignores armor and natural armor bonuses called Deft Strike...though this trick is better as it's a touch attack)

*MOVEMENT*
Acrobatic Backstab (this would make a great feat!)
Back on Your Feet (this can be done with the Tumble skill if your check is high enough, I believe DC 35 or 40, from Oriental Adventures)
Escape Attack
Nimble Stand (same as Back on Your Feet, though that trick lets you stand as an immediate action so maybe it trumps this one?)
Twisted Charge (already done as two feats, Fleet of Foot and the psionic feat Psionic Charge)

Well, those are what I think would be good feats. The rest are fine as skill tricks.


So Mike McArtor, what exactly constitutes as a skill trick? The sidebar gives an idea, but as you can see some of these tricks make good, if not great, feats. Though the sidebar stated skill tricks really wouldn't make great feats because players would not use them as often. However, a good example, Acrobatic Backstab many characters would love to take advantage of constantly. Tumbling by a foe and next attack counts the target as flat-footed...heck, it'd be broken as a feat, heh. It'd make a good Epic Feat.


----------



## |)ar|{ (Jan 14, 2007)

It appears that most of the high level required tricks are as good as many feats.  As my groups tend to play the lower level range tricks seem perfectly balanced but I can see them causing some balance issues at higher level.  Still have to get my copy and play test some to be sure.  Has anyone got a chance to try some of the higher level tricks.

Dark


<looks around for luck feats>


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## Razz (Jan 14, 2007)

So far only one player in my group has taken a skill trick and it's Sudden Strike. He has a character with daggers concealed all over him and he's a Rogue/Invisible Blade/Master Thrower. With Combat Reflexes feat he has plans on whooping out those daggers everytime he gets an AoO


----------



## EvolutionKB (Jan 16, 2007)

Mike,

Did you have imput on the Avenging Executioner?  If so, what was your inspiration and did it turn out like you wanted it to?  What are everybody else's opinions on this PrC?


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 16, 2007)

*is going to have to hold off on any RPG purchases* Mostly because I'm in school and my fundage is limited.   

Doesn't mean I don't think, from what Psion said at least, it seems like a good book.


----------



## Kafkonia (Jan 17, 2007)

I haven't had the chance to read through my copy in its entirety, but two things really jump out at me as positives:

-The Grey Guard. I love the fact that the PrC hews to the ideals of a paladin, but builds some flexibility into its code of conduct as it progresses.

-Feats like Ascetic Stalker. Anything that gives you more multiclass options increases the variety of feasible concepts, which is (IMNSHO) a good thing.

I have only glanced at the skill tricks as it takes me a while to digest new mechanics, even the relatively straightforward ones.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 18, 2007)

Well I'm going to Borders later this eve so maybe I'll find it there. If I do I might get it. MIGHT.


----------



## MKMcArtor (Jan 19, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> So Mike McArtor, what exactly constitutes as a skill trick? The sidebar gives an idea, but as you can see some of these tricks make good, if not great, feats. Though the sidebar stated skill tricks really wouldn't make great feats because players would not use them as often. However, a good example, Acrobatic Backstab many characters would love to take advantage of constantly. Tumbling by a foe and next attack counts the target as flat-footed...heck, it'd be broken as a feat, heh. It'd make a good Epic Feat.




So Razz, the answer is: whatever development decided on.  My original intent was to expand on skills with stuff that isn't covered in the rules already, or to include abilities I've seen in martial arts movies, wuxia, anime, video games, and so on. Now, it's sort of those things but it's also whatever Andy wanted to make of them as well.  



			
				EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> Did you have imput on the Avenging Executioner?  If so, what was your inspiration and did it turn out like you wanted it to?  What are everybody else's opinions on this PrC?




I wrote the avenging executioner, but I still don't have a copy of the book and I can't remember it well enough to give you a fair comment yet. Yet.  



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Well I'm going to Borders later this eve so maybe I'll find it there. If I do I might get it. MIGHT.




I hope you do and I hope you like it!


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 19, 2007)

Mike,

Congrats I failed my Will save. My mom will now proceed to kill me slowly.   But at least you got a sale!


----------



## brehobit (Jan 19, 2007)

OK,
Twisted charge is _way_ too powerful IMO.  At least when combined with other charge abilties that assume charging is hard.  

Heck, I think it allows the following:

--G
---
B--

Where X is the guy with the trait and B is the target.  G can charge B by going left 2 spaces and toward B one.  

It makes charging way too easy for the cost of 2 skill points.

I think I'm going to ban all of these for now...

Mark


----------



## blargney the second (Jan 19, 2007)

Brehobit, you just made me want to buy the book even more.


----------



## brehobit (Jan 19, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Brehobit, you just made me want to buy the book even more.





Not saying they aren't powerful, just a bit too much when combined with the high-skill Bo9S classes...

Mark


----------



## hong (Jan 19, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> OK,
> Twisted charge is _way_ too powerful IMO.  At least when combined with other charge abilties that assume charging is hard.
> 
> Heck, I think it allows the following:
> ...



 Twisted Charge is the one that lets you make one direction change when charging, right? I don't see why the above situation is so bad. If your BAB is +5 or less, you basically trade +2 to hit for -2 to AC. If your BAB is +6 or higher, you get +2 to hit with one attack, and give up your iterative attacks. It's useful, but hardly seems overpowered.


----------



## brehobit (Jan 19, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Twisted Charge is the one that lets you make one direction change when charging, right? I don't see why the above situation is so bad. If your BAB is +5 or less, you basically trade +2 to hit for -2 to AC. If your BAB is +6 or higher, you get +2 to hit with one attack, and give up your iterative attacks. It's useful, but hardly seems overpowered.




It gets to be with feats and class powers that rely on the fact that charging is fairly hard to pull off.  Bo9S has a few of those, spirited charge is another.  If you can use it while mounted, the small folks on dogs will be doing double damage a huge amount of the time.

And I'd call trading AC for attack bonus "feat worthly".  Even at just +2/-2 it can be very handy.  The same PC has an ability that gives +4 attack/-4 AC.  It comes in mighty handy toward the end of a fight (when he has cleave set up in particular).  

Mark


----------



## hong (Jan 19, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> It gets to be with feats and class powers that rely on the fact that charging is fairly hard to pull off.  Bo9S has a few of those, spirited charge is another.  If you can use it while mounted, the small folks on dogs will be doing double damage a huge amount of the time.




Well, that's not the fault of Twisted Charge, that's the fault of those other powers. I mean, people have been abusing Spirited Charge + Power Attack for years.


----------



## Kafkonia (Jan 19, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Twisted Charge is the one that lets you make one direction change when charging, right? I don't see why the above situation is so bad. If your BAB is +5 or less, you basically trade +2 to hit for -2 to AC. If your BAB is +6 or higher, you get +2 to hit with one attack, and give up your iterative attacks. It's useful, but hardly seems overpowered.




Is there not already a feat that lets you make one direction change while charging?


----------



## Sir Brennen (Jan 19, 2007)

Powerful Charge is another feat which adds alot to the effectivness of a charge, (especially when the character is wielding a Dwarven Battleaxe and is _enlarged_, which happens often in our current game.) Or the feat that acts like pounce, or hurling charge, or...

As a scout, I'd definitely make this a "must have" on my skill Tricks list, since I often charge to maximize the chance of scoring my added Skirmish damage. (Plus the feat from the book that adds Skirmish damage when moving more than 20'.... drool.)

My only question is - does the uses of tricks per day/session/encounter (however that works)  compensate for this increased flexible charging?

I'm expecting the book in my mail when I get home, hopefully be able to make some better judgements then.


----------



## brehobit (Jan 19, 2007)

Kafkonia said:
			
		

> Is there not already a feat that lets you make one direction change while charging?



I think so.  But that's a feat, this is 2 skill points.  To a warrior type with 6 points/level (swordsage) it is nearly zero cost.  One can blame Bo9S or CS.  But as both come from the same company, I'll choose WoTC.

Mark


----------



## Kafkonia (Jan 19, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> I think so.  But that's a feat, this is 2 skill points.  To a warrior type with 6 points/level (swordsage) it is nearly zero cost.  One can blame Bo9S or CS.  But as both come from the same company, I'll choose WoTC.
> 
> Mark




Fair enough. I believe Drunken Masters get something similar as a class feature as well, do they not?


----------



## tylermalan (Jan 19, 2007)

What's the general difference between Organizations and Affiliations?


----------



## Harm (Jan 19, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> OK,
> Twisted charge is _way_ too powerful IMO.  At least when combined with other charge abilties that assume charging is hard.
> 
> Heck, I think it allows the following:
> ...




  Charging IS easy.  You just have to go in a straight line, you don't have to be "lined up" on some arbitrary grid like your example implies.  Twisted charge just lets you charge around a corner or around some other obstacle like a wall or another opponent.

  That said, the tricks are bad.  Balance has gone out the window with more powerful feats, more and more powerful spells and the like being introduced.  Now we're getting skills that are as powerful or more powerful than many of the older feats.  2 skill points are not hard to come by for most classes, but for this small cost, many of these tricks will have a fairly big impact on a character, being used often and being... a feature of the character.

  Doubtless most people will love them.  Haveing your characters suddenly more powerful for a mere $25 appeals to the munchkins.


----------



## Kafkonia (Jan 19, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> That said, the tricks are bad.  Balance has gone out the window with more powerful feats, more and more powerful spells and the like being introduced.  Now we're getting skills that are as powerful or more powerful than many of the older feats.  2 skill points are not hard to come by for most classes, but for this small cost, many of these tricks will have a fairly big impact on a character, being used often and being... a feature of the character.




But the tricks are (unless you take feats or classes to change this) limited in terms of the number of uses, whereas most feats are usable over and over again. It's kind of like a Metamagic Feat vs. a Sudden Metamagic feat.

I don't have a problem with the added variety, personally, but maybe I just don't think things through in a proper (anti)powergamer style.


----------



## MKMcArtor (Jan 19, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> Congrats I failed my Will save. My mom will now proceed to kill me slowly.   But at least you got a sale!




Woot! Thanks!


----------



## Felon (Jan 20, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> That said, the tricks are bad.  Balance has gone out the window with more powerful feats, more and more powerful spells and the like being introduced.  Now we're getting skills that are as powerful or more powerful than many of the older feats...Doubtless most people will love them.  Haveing your characters suddenly more powerful for a mere $25 appeals to the munchkins.




This is an overblown reaction, particularly that last line. The tricks provide no direct bonuses to attack, AC, or damage, and they can be used only once per encounter (or once per minute outside of initiative). In short, if a trick beats out a feat, then we're talking about a seriously lousy feat there.

Using the example you discuss, the twisted charge trick, there is a feat in Complete Warrior that allows a character to change direction while charging: Fleet of Foot. Since it can be used every round, it's clearly providing a superior benefit.

The most powerful trick I see are the couple that let a character avoid an attack of opportunity when standing up, and for those who haven't figured it out yet, I gotta tell ya, the lack of options faced by a prone character versue the ease with which a tripmonger can tip a character over and the benefits he enjoys for doing so have been way out of whack for a looong time.


----------



## brehobit (Jan 20, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> Charging IS easy.  You just have to go in a straight line, you don't have to be "lined up" on some arbitrary grid like your example implies.  Twisted charge just lets you charge around a corner or around some other obstacle like a wall or another opponent.




Actually, my point is that it lets you charge someone who is 5' away.

Mark


----------



## brehobit (Jan 20, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> This is an overblown, irrational reaction The tricks provide no direct bonuses to attack, AC, or damage, and they can be used only once per encounter (or once per minute outside of initiative). In short, if a trick beats out a feat, then we're talking about a seriously lousy feat there.



Ah, I'd not noticed the limit.  That helps some.  Still _darn_ handy for 2 skill points.



> Using the example you discuss, the twisted charge trick, there is a feat in Complete Warrior that allows a character to change direction while charging: Fleet of Foot. Since it can be used every round, it's clearly providing a superior benefit.



True.  But at a much lower cost.



> The most powerful trick I see are the couple that let a character avoid an attack of opportunity when standing up, and folks I gotta tell ya, the lack of options faced by a character fighting a tripmonger in D&D has always been rather lame.




Agreed.  But I'd rather have either a tumble check with a reasonable DC -or- a full-round action that doesn't provoke then something which is limited to those with tumble...

Mark


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 20, 2007)

MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> Woot! Thanks!



Yeah well my inner Scoundrel thanks you. I doubt my finances will.


----------



## blargney the second (Jan 20, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> I gotta tell ya, the lack of options faced by a prone character versue the ease with which a tripmonger can tip a character over and the benefits he enjoys for doing so have been way out of whack for a looong time.



We changed standing up from prone to a move action that doesn't provoke AoOs.  Solved a lot of problems for us.


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## BryonD (Jan 20, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> and they can be used only once per encounter (or once per minute outside of initiative).



That is a good point that I think I have not been really keeping in mind when reading these.


----------



## Harm (Jan 20, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Using the example you discuss, the twisted charge trick, there is a feat in Complete Warrior that allows a character to change direction while charging: Fleet of Foot. Since it can be used every round, it's clearly providing a superior benefit.




  I would say it would trump that feat due to it's cost.  Chargeing more than once in an encounter is rare, and rarer still that there isn't a straight line to the target so the restriction of once per encounter really isn't a restriction.    Most of the fault in this case however is that the feat is underpowered and no PC would ever take it.  Twisted Charge isn't one of the more powerful tricks in my mind.

  Something like Twisted Charge, and most of the tricks, would be better handled as an opposed role or high DC roll you don't have to spend skill points on specifically, and you don't have to add another 20 block section to your player sheet to keep track of.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> The most powerful trick I see are the couple that let a character avoid an attack of opportunity when standing up, and for those who haven't figured it out yet, I gotta tell ya, the lack of options faced by a prone character versue the ease with which a tripmonger can tip a character over and the benefits he enjoys for doing so have been way out of whack for a looong time.




  Being prone in DnD is, wire-fu movies aside, nowhere near as penalizeing as it would be in an actual fight.  Imagine wearing 50 pounds of plate armour, not even able to move most of your joints half their normal rotation, having a 3 pound sword in one hand, a 5 pound shield and a torch in another, another 50 pounds of backpack and quiver on, potion vials (that miraculously don't explode when you fall), daggers, sacks, crossbow and other things on your belt... you think getting up can even be done let alone done in 3 seconds easily?  Think again.  The ease of tripping (for those that have the improved trip feat anyway) is pretty much mitigated by the ease of getting back up or fighting while down.  The only complaint I have on the situation is the DC of 35 for tumble to get back up as a swift action is probably too high, and heavy armour penalties are too low.


----------



## Sir Brennen (Jan 20, 2007)

For the sake of discussion, I'm going to put the _Twisted Charge_ trick up:


			
				Complete Scoundrel said:
			
		

> *Prerequisite:* Balance 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks
> *Benefit:* When you charge, you can make one turn of up to 90 degrees during your movement. You can't move more than your speed as part of this charge. All other restrictions on charges still apply, and you must have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn.



So note that you actually have to invest 12 skill points total (2 for trick + 10 for prereqs), can't move as far as a normal charge, can't charge around a blind corner, and can only do this once per encounter.

Powerful as a feat? Overpowered for the investment? I don't think so. Note that if the prereqs are cross-class skills, the investment is even higher.

For the record, in our current game, my scout and another fighter PC often make charges two or three times during an encounter, sometimes more in a widely spread battle.


----------



## Felon (Jan 20, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> I would say it would trump that feat due to it's cost.




If you can come up with 5 ranks in Balance and Tumble easily, then Twisted Charge has an advantage over Fleet of Foot that offsets the disadvantages it has. And come to think of it, it's not even that light a cost. 5 ranks in both Balance and Tumble, plus 2 more coughed up for the trick is no small thing for most characters. Many would find it a lot easier to cough up a feat for Run to meet the Fleet of Foot prereq.

As to charging or being denied a charge due to the straight-line rule, I don't think anyone's fit to say how common it is in everyone else's game. In my experience, I see charge lines blocked all the time--usually by another attacker who got there first.



> The ease of tripping (for those that have the improved trip feat anyway) is pretty much mitigated by the ease of getting back up or fighting while down.




You have an odd definition of "ease"--one that doesn't match up with any lexicon you're liable find in any library. Getting back up is enormously costly (move action, plus suffer an attack of opportunity), and fighting while down is extremely disadvantageous (-4 to attack, +4 to attacks made against you). OTOH, the Improved Trip guy is knocking you down mere by making a touch attack and an opposed check with a +4 bonus, and then getting a free attack automatically on that poor prone schlep. Please, explain to us where the mitigating give-and-take is happening here.


----------



## Felon (Jan 20, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> True.  But at a much lower cost.




As stated, it's not that low, even for a rogue. Sure, 5 ranks in Tumble is a lock, but Balance is largely a wash skill. Certainly the cost is inconvenient for a fighter, barbarian, paladin, and most other "chargey" types.



> Agreed.  But I'd rather have either a tumble check with a reasonable DC -or- a full-round action that doesn't provoke then something which is limited to those with tumble...




As would I. Or better yet, a Balance or Jump check to increase the marketability of those skills.


----------



## brehobit (Jan 21, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> As stated, it's not that low, even for a rogue. Sure, 5 ranks in Tumble is a lock, but Balance is largely a wash skill. Certainly the cost is inconvenient for a fighter, barbarian, paladin, and most other "chargey" types.




Turns out its really easy for a swordsage and I think a warblade (pretty sure balance is on their skill list).   

Also, one thing of interest.  The quick stand "trick" is an _immediate _action.  That's HUGE.  I think it has 12 ranks of tumble as a prereq, so again, not something a tank will likely be doing.  But very powerful indeed.

Mark


----------



## hong (Jan 21, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> Turns out its really easy for a swordsage and I think a warblade (pretty sure balance is on their skill list).




But the feat will be much easier for a fighter or any class with lots of bonus feats. Different classes have different costs involved, depending on what crunchy bits they have. I still don't really see what the problem is.



> Also, one thing of interest.  The quick stand "trick" is an _immediate _action.  That's HUGE.  I think it has 12 ranks of tumble as a prereq, so again, not something a tank will likely be doing.  But very powerful indeed.




I see this as a patch for the idiotic change that 3.5E made to the standing-up rule.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 21, 2007)

Agreed Hong. Some of the feats a fighter can aquire, but again I think the Skill tricks, a Swordsage or Warblade might get easier than a fighter. Which if you think about it, makes more sense anyway.


----------



## brehobit (Jan 21, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Agreed Hong. Some of the feats a fighter can aquire, but again I think the Skill tricks, a Swordsage or Warblade might get easier than a fighter. Which if you think about it, makes more sense anyway.



Sure,
But it makes what I consider to be an overpowered set of classes even *more* overpowered.

2 skill points is too low of a cost for the powers some of these provide.  

Mark


----------



## hong (Jan 21, 2007)

Getting away from the skill tricks for a moment, what are the luck feats like? Can someone post a list?


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 21, 2007)

Bre,

Maybe, but you could always stipulate 4 if you want. Of course some might object to that considering the "dearth" of skill points in D&D...


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 21, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Getting away from the skill tricks for a moment, what are the luck feats like? Can someone post a list?





Lucky.


----------



## Felon (Jan 21, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Getting away from the skill tricks for a moment, what are the luck feats like? Can someone post a list?




It's pretty basic. Each feat lets you burn one luck reroll to reroll something you just rolled, be it an attack roll, saving throw, a group of related skill checks, a stabilization check, the damage from a weapon or a spell, and lots of other stuff. Many, many, many different ones, and each one grants you one additional luck reroll per day. You got six luck feats, then you got six luck rerolls. A few also grant the option of burning two luck rerolls to achieve a better effect than you can get from just using one. 

It's one of those neat ideas that makes a guy wish there were more feats to go around. Then again, there's always the Fortune's Friend PrC for getting a few extra luck feats.


----------



## JustKim (Jan 21, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> The quick stand "trick" is an _immediate _action.  That's HUGE.



Can you please explain how standing up as an immediate action is huge?


----------



## hong (Jan 21, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> It's pretty basic. Each feat lets you burn one luck reroll to reroll something you just rolled, be it an attack roll, saving throw, a group of related skill checks, a stabilization check, the damage from a weapon or a spell, and lots of other stuff. Many, many, many different ones, and each one grants you one additional luck reroll per day. You got six luck feats, then you got six luck rerolls. A few also grant the option of burning two luck rerolls to achieve a better effect than you can get from just using one.
> 
> It's one of those neat ideas that makes a guy wish there were more feats to go around. Then again, there's always the Fortune's Friend PrC for getting a few extra luck feats.



 Cool. I've been of the opinion for _years_ that rerolls shouldn't be restricted only to clerics with the Luck domain.


----------



## brehobit (Jan 21, 2007)

JustKim said:
			
		

> Can you please explain how standing up as an immediate action is huge?



Sure,
It utterly negates trip attacks.  That's what makes wolves and worgs so powerful.  It would be like having a feat that negates grapple attacks.  Certain monsters (chokers for example) get a lot weaker.

<Chumbawamba>
I get knocked down. But I get up again. You're never going to keep me down.
</Chumbawamba>
Mark


----------



## blargney the second (Jan 21, 2007)

There's a really cool luck feat that lets you burn some luck to turn a natural 1 on an attack into a natural 20, and another that does the same with saves.


----------



## Sir Brennen (Jan 21, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> Sure,
> It utterly negates trip attacks.  That's what makes wolves and worgs so powerful.  It would be like having a feat that negates grapple attacks.  Certain monsters (chokers for example) get a
> lot weaker.



Again... _once per encounter_. Many of the trip monsters/characters will just knock the trickie character back down again, and he won't be flipping back up this time.  I don't see how that "utterly negates" trip attacks, especially with pack tactics creatures like the ones you mention.


----------



## Fingers Boggis (Jan 21, 2007)

I had a look but I couldn't see my question answered anywhere. Can anyone give a bit more detail on the cloaked dancer PrC? It sounds like the ideal finish to my bardic dervish I'm looking to roll up for a new campaign.

I'm sure I'll get some use out of some of the skill tricks as well but right now its the class progression I'm trying to put together 
Fingers


----------



## Felon (Jan 21, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Cool. I've been of the opinion for _years_ that rerolls shouldn't be restricted only to clerics with the Luck domain.




Now that you mention it, there's a luck feat called Third Time's a Charm that lets you expend a luck reroll to reroll the reroll granted by the luck domain ability!


----------



## Felon (Jan 21, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> Sure,
> It utterly negates trip attacks.  That's what makes wolves and worgs so powerful.  It would be like having a feat that negates grapple attacks.  Certain monsters (chokers for example) get a lot weaker.




Y'know, it's only Sunday, but this is a good contender for Weakest Arguement of the Week.    There actually is a feat that protects a character against Improved Grapple monsters: Close Quarters Combat in the Complete Warrior.

Yes, it makes grappling monsters less effective against that particular character. That's the whole point of the feat. Just as fear-causing monsters are less effective against paladins and monsters laying down area-effect damage attacks are less effective against characters with the evasion ability. There are many class features, feats, magic items, spells, and now skill tricks that grant defenses against certain types of attacks. Should we remove defenses from the game because it makes some attacks less powerful?


----------



## Victim (Jan 21, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> Sure,
> It utterly negates trip attacks.  That's what makes wolves and worgs so powerful.  It would be like having a feat that negates grapple attacks.  Certain monsters (chokers for example) get a lot weaker.
> 
> <Chumbawamba>
> ...




Trip -> (Auto stand) -> Improved Trip attack: Trip -> Improved Trip attack.  Way to go auto stand ability!  Even an attacker with only 1 attack (like wolf) can retrip the character in the same round with improved trip.

Moreover, by the time the trick is available (9th level), wolves aren't so powerful.  

The cloaked dancer is a 5 level class that has a few magical dances that can entrance or disturb viewers, and then gets a few sneak attack-esque bonus dice on those targets.  Amusingly, the art for the PrC includes no cloak.


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## brehobit (Jan 21, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> Again... _once per encounter_. Many of the trip monsters/characters will just knock the trickie character back down again, and they won't be flipping back up this time.  I don't see how that "utterly negates" trip attacks, especially with pack tactics creatures like the ones you mention.



Sure.  But that's still huge IMO.  A wolf/worg has a heck of a time A) getting a hit, B) getting the trip off.  Say 1 in 8 attacks against a fighter type of around level 5.  (AC 21, STR 16 has a >20% chance of being tripped by a worg, >7% by a wolf).  Getting up out of that is very very handy.  Being able to do it before your action (so you didn't even get tripped) basically negates a certain type of attack, once per encounter.

That would be a somewhat weak feat (I'd say twice/encounter would be reasonable).  But for 2 skill points?  It's nothing.  

Same thing with the charge and the other stuff.  2 skill points, to a lot of character (rogue, swordsage, warblade, bard, ranger, barbarian) is pretty much nothing compared to a feat.  Does a -2 to your least-used skill you have points in really balance *any* useful combat maneuver? Maybe for some builds, but not one I've ever seen.

That their is a limit on how may tricks you can have indicates the designers were worried people might grab a huge set of them.  

They are "weak feats" but very powerful in the right situations, and nearly free for many classes/builds.  Limited to 1/day, I'd still call them too much.  Perhaps if each use cost an action point or something...

IMO this is moving into the "skills-and-powers" issues of 2nd edition.  One could argue that no one thing in Skills and Powers was broken.  But building a hugely powerful character (compared to the core books) was VERY easy.  The same thing is happening with Bo9S, Complete Mage, and now CS.

A character with DR 5/cold iron at 6th level (which I will have when the party levels up again) is huge.  The ability to flank from any angle (which a character can do in my party right now) is huge (+2 to everyone that attacks them).  Core characters really have a hard time being useful when others are using lots of books to build.  I view these tricks as another step in that direction.  

Mark


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## Harm (Jan 21, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> You have an odd definition of "ease"--one that doesn't match up with any lexicon you're liable find in any library.  Getting back up is enormously costly (move action, plus suffer an attack of opportunity), and fighting while down is extremely disadvantageous (-4 to attack, +4 to attacks made against you).




  A move action to stand up is ease in anyone's dictionary.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> OTOH, the Improved Trip guy is knocking you down mere by making a touch attack and an opposed check with a +4 bonus, and then getting a free attack automatically on that poor prone schlep. Please, explain to us where the mitigating give-and-take is happening here.




  Your description is appropriate for an epic fighter tripping a kobold, it's not how the game actualy plays out however.  If your character can easily trip the opponent, in most cases the opponent is seriously overmatched and could be beaten any number of ways.

  An 8th level fighter with 16 str and improved trip vs. a CR9 Vrock is almost twice as likely to land himself prone as the Vrock.  Even with enlarge person it's only a little more likely the Vrock will be prone instead of the fighter.

  On evenly matched opponents Improved Trip turns a basically useless combat option into a risky maneuver that can backfire, but can have a potentially worthwhile payoff.  A move action to stand back up is not excessive.


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## chaotix42 (Jan 21, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Y'know, it's only Sunday, but this is a good contender for Weakest Arguement of the Week.    There actually is a feat that protects a character against Improved Grapple monsters: Close Quarters Combat in the Complete Warrior.




My wood elf barbarian got a CQC AoO off on a fire giant trying to grapple him, and ending up getting a critical hit. Hello grapple check of 148!


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## Remathilis (Jan 21, 2007)

Fingers Boggis said:
			
		

> I had a look but I couldn't see my question answered anywhere. Can anyone give a bit more detail on the cloaked dancer PrC? It sounds like the ideal finish to my bardic dervish I'm looking to roll up for a new campaign.
> 
> I'm sure I'll get some use out of some of the skill tricks as well but right now its the class progression I'm trying to put together
> Fingers




I'm working PURELY off the top of my head, someone can come and correct me.

You need ranks in perform dance (10?) and something else.

Five levels, d6 hd, 4 sp.

You get caster levels (if you are a caster) at 2nd/4th level.

You can use different dances (1st: enthrall, 3: fatigue, 5: fear) on foes. It lasts for 1 minute + con mod, IIRC. 

At 2nd/4th level, you can deal +1d6/+2d6 damage to any foe who is watching you dance. In all other ways, its like a SA. 

Its definitely a fun class. I have an NPC waiting to use it somewhere...


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## brehobit (Jan 21, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Y'know, it's only Sunday, but this is a good contender for Weakest Arguement of the Week.    There actually is a feat that protects a character against Improved Grapple monsters: Close Quarters Combat in the Complete Warrior.
> 
> Yes, it makes grappling monsters less effective against that particular character. That's the whole point of the feat. Just as fear-causing monsters are less effective against paladins and monsters laying down area-effect damage attacks are less effective against characters with the evasion ability. There are many class features, feats, magic items, spells, and now skill tricks that grant defenses against certain types of attacks. Should we remove defenses from the game because it makes some attacks less powerful?



You are correct on the feat, I had a PC who had it, you'd think I'd remember.

That said, being able to ignore one successful grapple 1/combat for 2 skill points would be pretty nice  (Edit: by "pretty nice" I mean "an option anyone would take and thus overpowered")


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## Felon (Jan 21, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> A move action to stand up is ease in anyone's dictionary.




If you stand up, it blows your chance to make a full attack, and causes you to suffer an AoO. How is that easy mitigation? One guys getting full rounds of attacks plus an attack of opportunity, the other only gets one attack or stays on the ground and suffers big penalties. Pretty harshly lopsided.



> Your description is appropriate for an epic fighter tripping a kobold, it's not how the game actualy plays out however.  If your character can easily trip the opponent, in most cases the opponent is seriously overmatched and could be beaten any number of ways.




It takes an epic level fighter against a kobold to make trip attacks effective? Once again, you're demonstrating a penchant for wild exaggeration. Let's look at the numbers.

A human fighter with an 18 Strength attempts to trip another human fighter with an 18 Strength. It's a straight-up +4 check versus a +8 check. The two characters even in levels and ability, yet the advantage is heavily weighted to the attacker. Which would be OK if there was some common defense against getting tripped that a character could avail himself of (other than "become a dwarf"), but there hasn't been previously. Now there's at least a skill trick that can be used once per encounter.


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## blargney the second (Jan 21, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> A wolf/worg has a heck of a time A) getting a hit, B) getting the trip off.  Say 1 in 8 attacks against a fighter type of around level 5.  (AC 21, STR 16 has a >20% chance of being tripped by a worg, >7% by a wolf).
> 
> That would be a somewhat weak feat (I'd say twice/encounter would be reasonable).  But for 2 skill points?  It's nothing.



A fighter 5 can't have the trick you're talking about.  The prerequisite is 12 ranks in Tumble.  That means that *nobody* can get it before level 9.  A 1st level wizard isn't going to meet the prerequisites for the Archmage PrC, so there's no point in talking about its abilities being teh b0rken for him.

In the game I'm currently playing in we've eliminated cross-class skills, and my character gets 13 skill points per level at 9th level.  I still can't meet the prerequisites for the tricks that I want the most.  There are significant barriers to entry on tricks, depending how you've built your character in the past.
-blarg


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## Harm (Jan 22, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> It takes an epic level fighter against a kobold to make trip attacks effective? Once again, you're demonstrating a penchant for wild exaggeration. Let's look at the numbers.




  The wild exaggeration is your own, I merely pointed it out.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> A human fighter with an 18 Strength attempts to trip another human fighter with an 18 Strength. It's a straight-up +4 check versus a +8 check. The two characters even in levels and ability, yet the advantage is heavily weighted to the attacker. Which would be OK if there was some common defense against getting tripped that a character could avail himself of (other than "always play dwarves"). Now there's at least a skill trick.




  Ignoring the chance for the attack to miss anyway, the fighter with the feat will have...  32% chance of landing on his ass.  Thats not "heavily weighted to the attacker."  A 32% chance of having an attack not only wasted, but having it end up backfiring and putting you in the situation you tried to put the opponent.  And the last time my fighter had an opponent that he wanted to trip that wasn't either larger and/or stronger I can't even remember.


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## Harm (Jan 22, 2007)

Okay... on first glance, Magic Appraisal turning detect magic into a 1 minute, pearl-free identify is a "must have", so are the two skills that make your spells un-counterable (although they at least have hard to get requirements.)  Every rogue will take Acrobatic Backstab and use it every chance they can.  Back on your Feet likewise is very powerful and pretty much a no-brainer to take.  Swift Concentration is (no pun) a no-brainer.  Clarity of Vision is pretty much a must-have depending on your campaign as well.

Those skills are easily as or more powerful than many feats.

  Nimble Stand is probably what Back on your Feet was MEANT to be but BoYF got left in as a typo, and is still pretty good.
  Collector of Stories seems to be a no-brainer depending on your GM's play style.
  Spot the Weak Point and Timely Misdirection are powerful for certain characters.

With the huge number of skill points some classes get, and the power of these skills being on-par with feats, it becomes pretty unbalancing.  No doubt future books will include more and it will only get worse.


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## JustKim (Jan 22, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> Okay... on first glance, Magic Appraisal turning detect magic into a 1 minute, pearl-free identify is a "must have"



Divine spellcasters can cast _identify_ without a material component. A divine spellcaster can also make a wand of _identify_ without having to invest material components, and since wands are type-inspecific, wizards can use them. 375 gp and 30 XP or 22 ranks in 3 skills, at least one of which is going to be cross-class?


			
				Harm said:
			
		

> Every rogue will take Acrobatic Backstab and use it every chance they can.



Once per encounter. Tumbling is an action, so you can only make one sneak attack. Using Bluff to feint can be used indefinitely.


			
				Harm said:
			
		

> Back on your Feet likewise is very powerful and pretty much a no-brainer to take.



Because it can negate one trip once per encounter at 9th level? You can't be tripped if you're not on the ground, and most 9th level parties are capable of flight. Tripping stops being a harrowing tactic early in an adventurer's career.


			
				Harm said:
			
		

> Clarity of Vision is pretty much a must-have depending on your campaign as well.



One person sees one invisible creature if it's within 30 feet and only for one round. You must be 9th level, when such spells as _see invisibility_, _glitterdust_ and _invisibility purge_ come cheap.


			
				Harm said:
			
		

> Those skills are easily as or more powerful than many feats.



That's true, a lot of feats aren't worth taking. That's why I think skill tricks are a great idea.

You guys are overreacting. Skill points are far from valueless, you can only have one skill trick per two character levels, and what I can accomplish cheaper, not to mention 6 levels earlier, is far from a "no-brainer".


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## Felon (Jan 22, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> Ignoring the chance for the attack to miss anyway, the fighter with the feat will have...  32% chance of landing on his ass.  Thats not "heavily weighted to the attacker."  A 32% chance of having an attack not only wasted, but having it end up backfiring and putting you in the situation you tried to put the opponent.




How do you come up with a 32% chance? With a +4 edge, the attacker only has a 35% chance of the attempt simply failing. Then on the couter-trip, it's 50/50. 



> And the last time my fighter had an opponent that he wanted to trip that wasn't either larger and/or stronger I can't even remember.




Guess that varies from campaign to campaign. I've played in one where all the DM every threw at the players were big monsters, but I've played in more campaigns where players faced a variety of foes, including plain ol' humans.


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## Felon (Jan 22, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> With the huge number of skill points some classes get, and the power of these skills being on-par with feats, it becomes pretty unbalancing.  No doubt future books will include more and it will only get worse.




Speaking from personal experience, I have a scout that gets 10 skill points per level and I gotta tell you, I don't sit around with points left to burn. Hide, Move Silently, Escape Artist, Tumble, Search, Listen, Spot, and Disable Device are all skills that I have to keep maxed or nearly maxed out. Then I gotta try to have decent ranks in Jump, Climb, Balance, three Knowledge skills, Survival, Sense Motive, Open Lock, Ride, and Sleight of Hand. Sure, I might pick up some skill tricks, but it won't be painless or a no-brainer. And there's no way I'm going to have all these "must-haves".


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jan 22, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Speaking from personal experience, I have a scout that gets 10 skill points per level and I gotta tell you, I don't sit around with points left to burn. Hide, Move Silently, Escape Artist, Tumble, Search, Listen, Spot, and Disable Device are all skills that I have to keep maxed or nearly maxed out. Then I gotta try to have decent ranks in Jump, Climb, Balance, three Knowledge skills, Survival, Sense Motive, Open Lock, Ride, and Sleight of Hand. Sure, I might pick up some skill tricks, but it won't be painless or a no-brainer. And there's no way I'm going to have all these "must-haves".




Ditto.  You NEVER have enough skill points.

Brad


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## Sir Brennen (Jan 22, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> Sure.  But that's still huge IMO.  A wolf/worg has a heck of a time A) getting a hit, B) getting the trip off.  Say 1 in 8 attacks against a fighter type of around level 5.  (AC 21, STR 16 has a >20% chance of being tripped by a worg, >7% by a wolf).  Getting up out of that is very very handy.  Being able to do it before your action (so you didn't even get tripped) basically negates a certain type of attack, once per encounter.



Trip is a touch attack, which a fighter is probably going to have a pretty lousy one. Also, the Improved Trip feat that these creatures have give them an additional +4 on the roll. You state in one post that Trip is what makes wolves and worgs so powerful, then complain that it's really hard for them to do...

Also, negates once per encounter is not the same as utterly negates, which is what you stated previously.



> That would be a somewhat weak feat (I'd say twice/encounter would be reasonable).  But for 2 skill points?  It's nothing.



 2 skill points and 12 ranks in Tumble. That would be 26 (!) skill points for your fighter (who has to be a minimum of 9th level, as pointed out.) All to be able to freely stand once per encounter,  which may not even come into play if he isn't knocked prone somehow.


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## Harm (Jan 22, 2007)

JustKim said:
			
		

> Divine spellcasters can cast _identify_ without a material component.




  Only clerics with the magic domain, and as a second level spell, and it still takes an hour.  Having the party wizard teleport to town to on pearl runs is a common occurence.



			
				JustKim said:
			
		

> Because it can negate one trip once per encounter at 9th level? You can't be tripped if you're not on the ground, and most 9th level parties are capable of flight. Tripping stops being a harrowing tactic early in an adventurer's career.




  Trip isn't the only way to end up prone, spells, special abilities, grapples and Dive For Cover feat are all common.  Compare it to one of the better feats, say dodge.  +1 to AC in some situations which will 95% of the time not stop an attack from hitting vs. completely preventing 1 (or more) attacks of opportunity and save you a move action in a situation which will happen occasionally.  They give very comparable benefits, the difference is that a rogue might get 10+ skill points per level but only 1 feat every few.



			
				JustKim said:
			
		

> One person sees one invisible creature if it's within 30 feet and only for one round. You must be 9th level, when such spells as see invisibility, glitterdust and invisibility purge come cheap.




  It's as a swift action you can do every 10 rounds.  So while checking for traps, wandering down a hall or in the middle of a fight etc.  It gives a lot of the benefits that a permanent see invisibility would do.

  The bottem line is that this book makes characters more powerful.  I see nothing that makes them more interesting.


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## EyeontheMountain (Jan 22, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> Trip isn't the only way to end up prone, spells, special abilities, grapples and Dive For Cover feat are all common.  Compare it to one of the better feats, say dodge.  +1 to AC in some situations which will 95% of the time not stop an attack from hitting vs. completely preventing 1 (or more) attacks of opportunity and save you a move action in a situation which will happen occasionally.  They give very comparable benefits, the difference is that a rogue might get 10+ skill points per level but only 1 feat every few.
> .




To me the most common way of ending up prone is jumping down on something. Or falling down and then getting attacked. Usingthis trick inthat case is great because you can usually get a full attack in  on the first round of combat.


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## Fingers Boggis (Jan 22, 2007)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> I'm working PURELY off the top of my head, someone can come and correct me.
> 
> You need ranks in perform dance (10?) and something else.
> 
> ...




Looks pretty nifty to me, by the time I've qualified for Dervish I'm not sure how many levels I'll take but definitely looks good and in character.

cheers
Fingers


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## green slime (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm not keen on this "trick" mechanic at all. IMO, they should be new uses for old skills. I really, really dislike this idea.


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## Felon (Jan 23, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> Only clerics with the magic domain, and as a second level spell, and it still takes an hour.  Having the party wizard teleport to town to on pearl runs is a common occurence.




And the skill trick in question requires 12 ranks in Spellcraft, so we're talking about a trick for a minimum 9th-level character. Oh, and there's a 5 rank requirement for knoledge (arcana) and Appraise, the latter of which is not only a sorcerer or wizard's skill list. So, it's not some cheapo 2 skill point investment. And again, there is a feat that grants a similar benefit.



> Trip isn't the only way to end up prone, spells, special abilities, grapples and Dive For Cover feat are all common.




Quick notes: grapple checks don't make a character prone, and calling Dive For Cover common is reaching a bit.



> Compare it to one of the better feats, say dodge.  +1 to AC in some situations which will 95% of the time not stop an attack from hitting vs. completely preventing 1 (or more) attacks of opportunity and save you a move action in a situation which will happen occasionally.  They give very comparable benefits, the difference is that a rogue might get 10+ skill points per level but only 1 feat every few.




And a fighter gets a lot of feats but only a few skill points. What's your point?


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## Pants (Jan 23, 2007)

green slime said:
			
		

> I'm not keen on this "trick" mechanic at all. IMO, they should be new uses for old skills. I really, really dislike this idea.



[kneejerk]Having not seen the entire book, I agree.[/kneejerk]

The book looks pretty interesting, but if I get it, it will NOT be for the tricks, which don't entice me at all from what I've seen.


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## Felon (Jan 23, 2007)

green slime said:
			
		

> I'm not keen on this "trick" mechanic at all. IMO, they should be new uses for old skills. I really, really dislike this idea.




Interesting that some folks think skill tricks are too cheap for their costs while others think they should be incorporated into skills gratis. 

Some say too good a deal, others say too lousy. Sounds like balance.


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## Harm (Jan 23, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> And the skill trick in question requires 12 ranks in Spellcraft, so we're talking about a trick for a minimum 9th-level character. Oh, and there's a 5 rank requirement for knoledge (arcana) and Appraise, the latter of which is not only a sorcerer or wizard's skill list. So, it's not some cheapo 2 skill point investment. And again, there is a feat that grants a similar benefit.




  Any of these tricks that I'm interested in for existing characters I already have the pre-req skills.  They're almost always ones that the class should already have.  The only restriction the ranks gives is the level that a character can take them at, otherwise these tricks come so cheap they may as well be free.

  Introducing Complete Scoundrel to our games = instant power-up.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> And a fighter gets a lot of feats but only a few skill points. What's your point?




  You obviously wouldn't be able to understand.


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## hong (Jan 23, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> Having the party wizard teleport to town to on pearl runs is a common occurence.




Did it ever occur to you that regular teleport runs just to do mundane stuff is kinda moronic?

If there's a change that obviates the need to do moronic things, bring it on, I say.


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## Nightfall (Jan 25, 2007)

Harm said:
			
		

> You obviously wouldn't be able to understand.




That makes three of us....


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## green slime (Jan 25, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Interesting that some folks think skill tricks are too cheap for their costs while others think they should be incorporated into skills gratis.
> 
> Some say too good a deal, others say too lousy. Sounds like balance.




I disagree.

I say, I dislike the mechanic: it adds a further layer of complexity on what is already a fairly complex game. It does this, and adds nothing flavourwise. It adds complication to a character sheet. It is yet another thing for a player to forget at that crucial moment, as opposed to something that anyone skilled enough could attempt, and which therefore will be more likely to be remembered by someone at the table. Its easier to remember that Fred has skill Drive Automobile, than it is Trick: Park Buick.

What the character could do with the trick, could probably have been allowed either through a more detailed Skill explanation, or through access to a feat (whether a kind of "tactical" feat or similar construct).

Introducing a new mechanic to resolve something, for which there is already a perfectly suitable mechanic in place, is truly abhorrent game design.


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2007)

As much as I would LOVE to use this book...I'm afraid I'll scare the other PCs I've never met in my new group.


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