# Coolest. Gaming Set-up. Evar.



## Steel_Wind

COOLEST.GAMING SET-UP. EVAR.

Ok. There have been a number of posts lately that have suggested that miniatures detract from a session or create a disconnect between the role-playing aspect of a game and turn it all into some tactical tabletop wargame.

While there are clear meta-gaming concerns that do come more to the fore when using miniatures, the benefits are real, tangible and when done correctly, add a vast depth to the game and to the enjoyment of all the participants.

I’d like to point out what our group has done to make miniatures MORE a part of the session  - not less.

The DLP Projector

We have been longtime users of miniatures in our gaming circle, Most of us have been gaming since the late 70’s. We did not use miniatures much in 1st edition – but we certainly did when we were playing Rolemaster for 16 years or so and we kept it when we moved to 3E.

We have thousands of metal miniatures, lead and pewter both. But I do admit that we took to the plastic minis very quickly and have amassed a collection of thousands of the WotC plastic minis, We love em.

We had made use of Battlemats for years. But last fall I saw a letter by Jans Carton in Dungeon Magazine and he got me to thinking. Jans group uses a LCD projector for their sessions and it sounded mighty cool to me. Every player in our group has a laptop and sessions these days are a mass of laptops all over the table. I wanted to bring the visual depth of a game like NeverWinter to our gaming circle – and at the same time cut out all of the restrictions that go with a CRPG. Keep the sizzle – cut out the nonsense.

So that’s what we did.

The 7 of us in our gaming circle each threw $100 CDN or so into the pot and we bought a used DLP projector off of e-bay last fall for about $600 USD.

We then took that projector and rigged up a portable pole (in this case, a portable joist support used for basement renovations available at any Home Depot) and we affixed a custom metal bar to it, kit-bashed a $1.99 wire ironing board rack to it and we had our baby up.

[imbedded picture link (http://www.dladventures.com/gallery/public/news/project_2.jpg) removed because it was prompting for login - Kid Charlemagne, moderator]

While we always game in the same location, if we were inclined to take it down and move it around – we certainly could do so.

The projector is bright at about 1600 ANSI LUMENS. In English, this means that the image shows up in normal ambient room lighting fairly well. With the lights dimmed just a tad more than we would normally play in – the image on the table is VERY bright.

[imbedded picture link (http://www.dladventures.com/gallery/public/news/project_1.jpg) removed because it was prompting for login - Kid Charlemagne, moderator]

For maps, we have resorted to a number of options:

1 – Neverwinter Nights maps, created on the fly. This is great for camp encounters in the wild, or terrain based encounters or things like a troll hole. The above map was created in literally two minutes using the NWN toolset at the gaming table to deal with an encounter with Ice trolls in the frozen wilds.

2 – NWN maps, more detailed. I pre-plan most of my dungeon crawls, and this allows me to use the Toolset to create several levels. I display the map in the toolset (not the game client) and simply pan and scroll as necessary

3 – Maps scanned from a product or created with Dundjinni - displayed with Tabletop Mapper: Tabletop mapper is a free utility that will take any .bmp or .jpg and slap a grid over it of arbitrary size, zoom in or out or pan your image however you like, and even allows you to prepare a map ahead of time and hide those defined areas one by one. In this fashion, you can take a map out of Dungeon Mag or what have you (now all the maps are available on Paizo’s site with each issue) and reveal the map a room or corridor at a time as the party explores. The output on the tabletop is excellent.

Since we’ve been using this setup – the excitement over the game has increased and we are all loving it. Seeing as this cost us each about the price of 2 to 3 hardcover rulebooks per person, it was hardly an expensive purchase when you think about it in those terms. The payoff has been stupendous.

[imbedded picture link (http://www.dladventures.com/gallery/public/news/project_4.jpg) removed because it was prompting for login - Kid Charlemagne, moderator]

I have seen DMs crow about the wonder of Tac-tiles and preparing them ahead of time or the ability to scroll the Tac-tile map by moving and erasing as you go.

I have all my maps on my laptop. I don’t erase anything. They look FABULOUS and I can even include animated effects like fireballs, walls of fire, lava pits, etc.

Time to get it working in the session is literally less than one minute. Our sessions go faster with digital map projection vs overhead pens. The visual payoff is outstanding.

If you have discounted the use of miniatures in your sessions. Please – re-think your position. There is so much you can do with a setup like this. It aids in telling the story, it creates exitement and buzz over every game session and the player’s PAY ATTENTION to their surroundings. They ask for MORE descriptive detail – not less. They care where they are and ask about all kinds of things now.

Quite simply – it ROCKS.


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## Jdvn1

... Wow, that's stupid cool.


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## francisca

Didja hear that?  That was jaw dropping. 

Guess what I am checking out from work next game night.


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## Dareoon Dalandrove

Totally awsome.  I would love to do this.  Anything that enchances the visuals of the game are always a plus.


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## Kashell

I would love to do that when I get my own place.


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## Piratecat

I wanna be you when I grow up. That's just great.


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## Krieg

My wife would kick my behind if I told her I wanted to pull down our projector and start using it for games instead of watching DVDs...but still that is very cool.


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## Crothian

Okay, you guys are in Toronto, the commute isn't that bad.....I can make it.  That is freaking cool.  We used to use one but not as a battle map, to just use visuals and other things.  Amazing.


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## Look_a_Unicorn

Wow! I love technology


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## Old One

*Drools with Envy*

"I hate you, Kenny."

~ OO


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## Duo Maxwell

WOW!  I'd get a projector just for this kind of setup!  Your players must love you!


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## Patryn of Elvenshae

Dude?

This guy's totally a cheater.

Whip up levels in Neverwinter Nights my left toe!



All hail the DLA team!

Anyone who is unfamiliar with their work should totally check out the link in Robert's .sig - the DLA team is one of the most dedicated and talented mod groups in the NWN community.  They're so good, in fact, that BioWare has contacted them regarding super-secret projects.

Seriously - check out their work.

NWN Board Vet,


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## Krieg

BTW was the D20 in the last pic glowing before the projector was turned on?

Just making sure it's not radioactive or possessed....I worry.


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## Steel_Wind

While I have access to a lot of NWN art that most people don't have - the time and skill required to do stuff in the NWN toolset of the kind we are talking here is as easy as it gets. It's a touch more involved than MS Paint.

This is not scripting. This is paint down some tiles and dress it up with placeables. It's point and click map building.  Art talent required is utterly nil.

Now - while I admit that good level design and lighting for building a CRPG module IS a skill, the effect you can get with stock NWN is available to everyone reading this. 

It is not hard - and it only takes a few minutes to do.  If fly by your pants gaming is your style - the toolset can accomodate that style without much more of a skip in action than you would require if you were drawing it out with overhead pens. 

I can accompish in a few minutes with the Toolset what it would take me DAYS to do in Dundjinni.

My point: this is accessible technology that requires no particular l33t skillz.


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## Steel_Wind

Krieg said:
			
		

> BTW was the D20 in the last pic glowing before the projector was turned on?
> 
> Just making sure it's not radioactive or possessed....I worry.




One of the guys was screwing around when that pic was taken. It was a crystal D20 on the table and he was shining a laser pointer at it.  He thought it looked cool - we snapped the pic.


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## Zappo

I think I've already seen this in another thread. It's so very cool. There are two main things that prevent me from considering it:

1) I don't use miniatures and I don't think I will. Currently, we use a whiteboard and dry-erase markers. I wonder if projecting over a whiteboard or plastic sheet would work...?

2) I use my laptop as a DM screen. I use it in game to view the adventure, the SRD, to keep notes, make rolls and all. I couldn't use to project maps.


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## philreed

Hopefully some local game stores will see this thread and construct similar setups in their game rooms. I could see something like this being very popular at stores that run HeroClix and etc. tournaments.


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## Ed Cha

That is awesome! So jealous now...   

Your set-up makes me think we should try to introduce more technology into games. Have you thought about posting tips on a Web site for people interested in doing something similar as what you did?


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## Li Shenron

I am so envy   We normally don't use minis at all, just markers on paper or not even them, but I would start using minis if I had the same installment here as you do, because visualizing the terrain is IMHO far more useful than visualizing the characters.


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## Buttercup

Crothian said:
			
		

> Okay, you guys are in Toronto, the commute isn't that bad.....I can make it.




And if I swing by your place and pick you up, we can share the driving.  It won't be bad at all.

Sadly, two of my players have never even sprung for a copy of the PHB, they'd never cough up the dough for a setup like this.


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## MonsterMash

Very impressive, but for the time being I don't think any group I game with will go down this route.


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## Ed Cha

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Sadly, two of my players have never even sprung for a copy of the PHB, they'd never cough up the dough for a setup like this.




No offense to your players, but I can never understand that, especially those people who spend every week playing. If you spend that much time playing, why not invest in your game some more. At least buy the damn book!

I have a theory that the less people play, the more books they buy. Maybe it's because you're too busy playing to read...


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## DarrenGMiller

Simply amazing!

Me want....

DM


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## cmanos

Holy crap... now I have to find the site with the gaming table I blew a wad over....


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## Jakar

Damn!!!!!!


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## Greylock

Wow. I'm impressed by the clever use of the NWN toolset. Never thought of doing that, and yes, it really is that easy. Neat idea...


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## Storminator

Zappo said:
			
		

> I think I've already seen this in another thread. It's so very cool. There are two main things that prevent me from considering it:
> 
> 2) I use my laptop as a DM screen. I use it in game to view the adventure, the SRD, to keep notes, make rolls and all. I couldn't use to project maps.




Most projectors have a "freeze" button. Throw up the image, hit freeze, and your laptop is free to do as you will. 

Of course if you don't use minis, that's pretty moot...

PS


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## diaglo

i want one.


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## Steel_Wind

Storminator said:
			
		

> Most projectors have a "freeze" button. Throw up the image, hit freeze, and your laptop is free to do as you will.
> 
> Of course if you don't use minis, that's pretty moot...
> 
> PS




Alternatively, you do not have to have the projector act as a clone of your laptop monitor, but as a second monitor that you simply extend your desktop to.  This is the default setup for second monitors under most video chipsets under Win XP.

Extending your desktop on to the second monitor (the projector)leaves your laptop screen private and free to use it as you like.


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## MrFilthyIke

diaglo said:
			
		

> i want one.




But won't technology ruin the true OD&D feel?


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## diaglo

MrFilthyIke said:
			
		

> But won't technology ruin the true OD&D feel?





i'm talking about for me, not the campaign.

i have all the computer games from Adventure for my Atari on up to the latest DVD release.

wargame strategy, fantasy, and roleplay


i'm a wargamer first.


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## MrFilthyIke

diaglo said:
			
		

> i'm a wargamer first.




Fair enough, a valid defense.


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## Zappo

Storminator said:
			
		

> Of course if you don't use minis, that's pretty moot...



I could project it on a plastic sheet or whiteboard and use markers (as I do now). I think the main issue would be that the markers would be invisible in the dark areas of the map - unless the ambient light is strong enough to see them.

Steel_Wind, do you think that could work?







			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Alternatively, you do not have to have the projector act as a clone of your laptop monitor, but as a second monitor that you simply extend your desktop to. This is the default setup for second monitors under most video chipsets under Win XP.
> 
> Extending your desktop on to the second monitor (the projector)leaves your laptop screen private and free to use it as you like.



Hm..! I don't know if my crappy laptop does that. I'll try. Even without the projector, I could use my TV to display images, maps, or charts. That would be pretty useful too!


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## Djeta Thernadier

That is so cool.  

I personally like miniatures, maps and what not...the more visuals the better I say!


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## MrFilthyIke

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> I personally like miniatures, maps and what not...the more visuals the better I say!




Ditto for me, I love the minis side of combat.


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## punkorange

I think this is the most awesome game table setup I've ever seen.  I'm all set to check out the projector from work


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## Wulf Ratbane

You are the most amazing DM I have ever seen.

I mean... really... _You let your guys drink hi-balls at the table!_


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## Buttercup

Ed Cha said:
			
		

> No offense to your players, but I can never understand that, especially those people who spend every week playing. If you spend that much time playing, why not invest in your game some more. At least buy the damn book!
> 
> I have a theory that the less people play, the more books they buy. Maybe it's because you're too busy playing to read...




Well, one of them uses the SRD, and has an extensive booklet made up for herself with all the rules and spells that are likely to apply to her character.  She just prefers to travel light, I guess.  The other one, though I love her dearly, is a cheapskate.  Or maybe it's just that she comes from a background that would have considered spending money on nonessential things wasteful.  She hasn't really gotten over that.  Both of them earn over 50k a year, so it isn't a case of not being able to afford it.


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## skinnydwarf

Ed Cha said:
			
		

> <SNIP>
> 
> I have a theory that the less people play, the more books they buy. Maybe it's because you're too busy playing to read...




Maybe that's why I buy so many books... Although I think the more likely explanation is because I work near a great game store, so it's so easy to just stop there on the way back to the subway.  Especially since they have used game books, so I can say "well, it will be sold soon, I need to buy it now or I'll miss the great deal!"

/threadjack

On topic, that setup is way cool.  I had thought of running some dungeon adventures in NWN, but this is a much better idea.  Now, to get the money...
[edited for bad grammer]


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## Semah G Noj

That is far too cool.  I am both envious and spiteful.


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## MrFilthyIke

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> You are the most amazing DM I have ever seen.
> 
> I mean... really... _You let your guys drink hi-balls at the table!_




The geeks are eyeballin' the gaming table, but not Wulf.  Straight to the liquor with him.


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## dagger

If anyone else is going to do this, this $699 cell phone (large cell phone) sized projector would be a lot easier to mount. I don't know the specs on this projector and how well it would work in a set up like in this thread. Heck, I don't know much about projectors period, but they are cool. 

Nice set up btw!


http://www.techworthy.com/Blog/Mitsubishi-PocketProjector-8482.htm


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## MrFilthyIke

dagger said:
			
		

> http://www.techworthy.com/Blog/Mitsubishi-PocketProjector-8482.htm





Sweet projector, a good idea.


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## Kanegrundar

This is awesome!  I wish I had enough room for this in my house.  Maybe once the fiance and I buy a new house...

Kane


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## Assenpfeffer

Wow.  This is a freakin' incredible setup.


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## Astos

This is very cool.  One step closer to ultimate cool would be to be able to project from underneath onto some kind of rear projection surface so that arms, miniatures, and other objects don't get in the way of the light.


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## Berandor

trés cool!


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## Bigwilly

Astos said:
			
		

> This is very cool.  One step closer to ultimate cool would be to be able to project from underneath onto some kind of rear projection surface so that arms, miniatures, and other objects don't get in the way of the light.




Just what I was thinking! 

Now I just need to work out how to incorporate this into the ultimate gaming table that was posted on here a while ago and then figger out how I am going to afford a bigger house so I can have a dedicated gaming room that I can fit the whole caboodle into!

Bigwilly


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## Brain

Nice setup   

I'm wondering how long until it all goes holographic and is rendered in 3D on the gaming table.


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## jodyjohnson

Trying to figure out how big an image I could get by projecting the image from the floor below the table (home-made 1/2" plywood 4'x8') through frosted glass (no shadows on the map, can mark on the glass.


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## azmodean

I want one of these setups sooo bad.   Unfortunately I'd have to buy the projector as well as an entire collection of minis.  So about 1K$ alltogether.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian

Wow. WOW. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I want one. But first I need a laptop... 

Very cool setup. I wish I could do the same, although my wife might really start to believe I'm crazy, instead of just thinking it on occasion.


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## Krypter

That is a cool setup, but I'm a miniatures-hater and I'm still not convinced. NWN may be good for generic dungeon-hacks, but it can't imitate the fantastic glory of a setting like Planescape, where my players last month visited a burg perched on a huge stalagmite column which had titanic blades and chains spinning around it generating steam power. How would you ever show that in NWN? The place looks 10x better in my imagination that in any generic NWN tileset. 

Also, there's the perennial problem of not having enough miniatures. You'd have to spend a fortune to get all the miniatures for an exotic fantasy setting, some of which might not even exist. Are there miniatures for the Howler on Pandemomium? How about modrons on Mechanus?  I doubt it. So you end up substituting some ridiculous miniature that doesn't look like what you described. Your imagination can do a lot better than that. 

Nice work, though. And it's great that your players are dedicated enough to put that much money and effort into their game.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae

Krypter said:
			
		

> NWN may be good for generic dungeon-hacks, but it can't imitate the fantastic glory of a setting like Planescape




Well, well, lookie here ...

http://www.city-of-doors.com/

So, would you like to take your foot out of your mouth now, or would you like a little extra-planar help, berk?


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## Krypter

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Well, well, lookie here ...http://www.city-of-doors.com/
> So, would you like to take your foot out of your mouth now, or would you like a little extra-planar help, berk?




No need to be rude, Patryn. I already know about that project. Notice that it isn't finished yet, and that it only deals with Sigil, not the entirety of the planes? Nothing about Pandemonium or Mechanus there. It still doesn't address my problem of how would you present the wonders of the planes outside of a generic tileset, or where you would get miniatures of exotic planar creatures. Some may exist, some may not. That by itself limits your options, whereas your imagination is limitless.


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## Umbran

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> If you have discounted the use of miniatures in your sessions. Please – re-think your position.  There is so much you can do with a setup like this.




While that setup is really spiffy, it sure doesn't constitute a good reason to reconsider minis.  As an extension to a part of the game you already know you like, it's cool.  As an experiement into something you don't know you'll like, it is far, far too expensive.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae

Krypter said:
			
		

> No need to be rude, Patryn.




Likewise, potblack.

You said it couldn't be done.



			
				YOU said:
			
		

> it can't imitate the fantastic glory of a setting like Planescape




Not only can it be done, it *is* being done.


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## Krypter

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Likewise, potblack.




Saying something can't be done is not being rude. You, on the other hand, are being patronizing and condescending in the extreme, with hardly a thought to actually refuting my points. 

Once again, I repeat this: Is anyone replicating the Planescape setting in whole? No. City of Doors is only about Sigil, a tiny fraction of the planescape universe. Without sounding too critical of CoDI, it too is a pale imitation of the drawings and descriptions of PS in the setting material, and is no substitute for a good DM's description and ad-hoc storytelling. You should have argued for Planescape Torment, as it comes closest and does a far better job in that regard. 

So now how *are* you replicating the Tower of Khin-OIn in the howling waste, or making a NWN tileset for the chain-city of Jangling Hiter, hmm? 

Secondly, the miniatures problem still stands, and you haven't addressed it at all. 

Criticism is not rudeness, but being insulting without addressing my arguments is.


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## MoogleEmpMog

At the OP:

That's cooler than ninja pirates.  I'm not sure if it's cooler than ninja pirate robots with dinosaurs, but it just might be.



			
				Krypter said:
			
		

> NWN may be good for generic dungeon-hacks, but it can't imitate the fantastic glory of a setting like Planescape.




You're right.

NWN can never imitate Planescape.  It didn't murder a setting with REAL fantastic glory so it could rehash it as sepia-toned planarpunk.  

Spelljammer, on the other hand, would be absolutely amazing with this setup.  You could do asteroids, the curve of planets, even large "stationary" objects like the Spelljammer itself or a big dwarven citadel.


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## Steel_Wind

Let me address a few issues that have popped up here:

First...



> I could project it on a plastic sheet or whiteboard and use markers (as I do now). I think the main issue would be that the markers would be invisible in the dark areas of the map - unless the ambient light is strong enough to see them.
> 
> Steel_Wind, do you think that could work?




Projecting on a whiteboard certainly would work well.  We have experimented with projection surfaces, trying a white piece of foamcore, a white blind and our biege Battlemat.

It's a function of the brightness of your projector and ambient lighting in the room.  We prefer to use a surface with a 1" grid on it already as that makes use in game easy.  More white reflective the surface = higher gain. 

In term of being able to use markers - I don't see why not. You might want to play with the color of the ink - but it will work in most cases.

Might I suggest you are missing the obvious though?  If you are using NWN, why not simply use the creature models in the game? You will have a ready made supply of hundreds of creatures, limitless PC races and you will never, _ever_ run out.  There is nothing more you will need to buy.

Admittedly, you can't use something like Tabletop Mapper with NWN digital minis, but if cost of miniatures is your concern, an all digital solution is possible.



> Hm..! I don't know if my crappy laptop does that. I'll try. Even without the projector, I could use my TV to display images, maps, or charts. That would be pretty useful too!




If you have a SVGA TV-Out port on your laptop - I am pretty much CERTAIN you can extend your desktop to it under Win XP.  It's a standard approach of the chipset makers now.




> This is very cool. One step closer to ultimate cool would be to be able to project from underneath onto some kind of rear projection surface so that arms, miniatures, and other objects don't get in the way of the light.




This was a concern of ours initially too.  We thought of trying this as a rear projection setup.  There are some technical concerns though with this approach.

The biggest issue is throw distance of your projector. Generally speaking, the shorter the distance between the projector and the projection surface, the smaller the image that is being displayed. Results vary highly from projector model to model though.

So putting it directly on the floor underneath your surface and projecting up is likely with most projectors to make an inadequate sized image (but see below)

You can skin this cat another way though.  You can install a mirror at an angle below your table and then put the projector a ways off on a stool or some such, so you are increasing your throw distance.  This is an approach that another group uses.  Here is his set up:

The big problem is the big ass mirror under the table, which restricts movement around the table and potentially poses a serious danger to stray feet.






You also have light loss on the mirror and the projection surface. This group uses simple paper to reflect the image.  A piece of buffed Lexan would probably work better and result in less light loss.






Still - depending on your gaming setup, it can be cool.  Here is a more typical use of their table during play:






I prefer our own setup as it provides for a more intimate central table. The miniatures do not interefere with projection at all by the way - and hands over the table is something we don't even notice during play - so this is really not a concern.  I admit I had the same worry  initially - but it has proved to be no concern at all during actual use.



> If anyone else is going to do this, this $699 cell phone (large cell phone) sized projector would be a lot easier to mount. I don't know the specs on this projector and how well it would work in a set up like in this thread. Heck, I don't know much about projectors period, but they are cool.
> 
> Nice set up btw!
> 
> 
> http://www.techworthy.com/Blog/Mits...jector-8482.htm





OK.  Now THIS has serious possibilities.  

Let me explain what the main issues are here with projectors being used for this purpose.  You care about the following elements of a projector:

*1 - Brightness of image:*.  You want a minimum of 1200 ANSI lumens.  Without it - you will be gaming in very low ambient light, too low really.  You will note that in all the reviews the ANSI lumens is not noted for this unit.  That suggests to me that this is a dim unit, relatively speaking.

*2 - Minimum Throw Distance:*  The bigger the image with the smaller the throw distance, the better (in general).  You can have your picture too big though, which will start to make the image visibly pixellated.  Generally speaking, that's a nice problem to be able to have though as the real problem is an image which is too small.  If this projector can do 40" at a distance of three feet - it would be VERY possible to use it directly under the table.  Or put it over the table if you prefer - either way - very nice.

*3-  Bulb life:*  Most modern DLP projectors (this is different from an LCD projector, although analogous) have sophisticated bulbs in them which include aligned optics in the halogen bulb.  They are complicated lil gadgets - damnably bright - and VERY expensive to replace. Cost is about $300-$400 to replace a bulb, depending on the unit. Yup. That much. Bulb life is about 2000 hours on most units, 3,000 hours on the newer models.

In the unit above, the lighting is said to be provided by LED's not a halogen bulb.  This is an extremely stable light source so bulb life is practically "forever".  That's very cool.  However, using LED's as a light source is very limited by their brightness.

I would be flabbergast if you can get 1200 ANSI out of an LED lit DLP projector.  If anyone can track down the brightness of this unit to report back - I want to know about it. If it is rated at 1200 or over - I'll buy one just to use at home and as a back up projector.

*4 - Size of the Unit:* Our Optoma EZpro 750 projector is about the size of a clock radio ca. 1980.  It is very light.  The newer the DLP, the smaller they seem to be getting.

Compare that to an old LCD projector.  Those things were monsters.  Here is a pic of the one Jans Carton's group uses:






His LCD is also old and relatively dim at about 800 ANSI. They use special lighting in the basement room their projector is located in (you can see the LED light strips) as a result.  

A small DLP can be lugged around and placed over a living room or kitchen table with no problem and you can use an indirect support method like our pole.  For an older LCD projector like Jans, that puppy needs to be bolted down and its not going anywhere.

My guess is that most wives are not going to put up with one of those over the dining room table 

*5 - Resolution of Image:*  You want a minimum of 800x600 and if it scales up to 1024x768 or higher, so much the better.  This pocket projector appears to be adequate if a little fuzzy at 800x600.  It's one of those things you have to see "live in concert" to get a feel for - but it sounds ok.

I will make some more inquiries into the Mitsubishi PocketProjector, as its size, portability, bulb life, minimum throw and resolution all appear to be IDEAL for a gaming application.  Moreoever, its cost, brand new at MSRP, ROCKS.  The real issue - and the one that concerns me most - is brightness of the image.

If the company is not touting its ANSI Lumens brightness, you can expect that it is not very good.  How bad is the real issue.  But if it's 1200 or higher - this would appear to be an AWESOME unit.

Nice thing is - the tech only gets better folks.  If this one is not bright enough for your purpose - just wait a bit - they'll get brighter.  

Lastly, the technology behind the DLP projector is what is making all these devices so cheap.  They are stealing the market from LCD projectors now and as the quality increases, my expectation is there won't BE an LCD projector market in a few years. It will all move to DLP.

And yes, we are starting a website for projection Gaming table purposes at DLA next month.  Who knows what else a group of 30 software developers and 3d artists might have up their sleeve for this sort of thing?


----------



## Hurtfultater

Krypter said:
			
		

> Also, there's the perennial problem of not having enough miniatures. You'd have to spend a fortune to get all the miniatures for an exotic fantasy setting, some of which might not even exist. Are there miniatures for the Howler on Pandemomium? How about modrons on Mechanus? I doubt it. So you end up substituting some ridiculous miniature that doesn't look like what you described. Your imagination can do a lot better than that.




You can use placeholder minis for quite a bit, and you'd be suprised how many first and third party models there are for NWN. The DM doesn't need physical minis to do anything - he can just spawn however many models he needs. If there aren't modron models already, they're at least going to be pretty easy to make.

EDIT:  Robert (Steel Wind), have you considered using a lens or warped mirror to reduce the minimum throw distance?  You'd still have a considerable minimum (unless you raid an observatory), but you might be able to do a slanted projection or just a short enough throw to integrate a projector into a coffee table or desk.  Also, what's the minimum buy in for an acceptable XVG DLP projector?  I'm new to this projector scene and filled with a nerdly desire beyond all reckoning.


----------



## Semah G Noj

Hurtfultater said:
			
		

> If there aren't modron models already, they're at least going to be pretty easy to make.




I dunno...wherever is a player going to find a ready supply of small polyhedrals?


----------



## Darkness

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Well, well, lookie here ...
> 
> http://www.city-of-doors.com/
> 
> So, would you like to take your foot out of your mouth now, or would you like a little extra-planar help, berk?



 Bar that, graybeard. EN World is not a place to nick primes. Thanks.


----------



## RSKennan

Rather than projecting, I've been wanting to rig up an HDTV under plexiglass. Of course I don't have the cash to blow on a spare HDTV, but when I do....


----------



## Ferret

Craaaazy cool.


----------



## der_kluge

Boys and their toys.  I want one!

The price of LCD projectors have come down significantly in recent years.  I saw one new at Best Buy for around $800.  Yea, still pricey.  I never considered one for this purpose.  I was thinking of just using the wall as my computer monitor.  Of course, anymore then only game I really play on my computer is spider solitaire, so that would be kind of silly.


----------



## hwoolsey

*A table-surface possibility*

A friend of mine wallpapered his home office (well, the upper half of the walls) with a product that functions exactly as white board and is finished to be appropriate for use as LCD projection screen. This would give you the benefit of both surfaces and provide a bright image from the projector.

I will send him an email to see if I can get a name of the product.

Hank Woolsey


----------



## Aristotle

Very neat!

I daydream about the 'perfect game room' all the time and I often wonder if I'd go with an overhead projector or an underglass monitor. I thought a touch screen would be neat. Especially if you could configure the software to hilight an area of effect centered on where you touch.

A nice fantasy for me, but I commend you for taking steps to make it a reality for your group.


----------



## Len

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> My guess is that most wives are not going to put up with one of those over the dining room table



But most wives _do_ want an attractive hanging lamp over the dining room table. So it's just a matter of working out the aesthetics.


----------



## Boredflak

One aspect of digital projection mapping that I haven't seen addressed on this thread is *speed*. This is one of the biggest impacts on the gaming experience our setup has had for us. We used to waste hours of game time on drawing relatively crappy-looking maps.

Even with a dry erase battle mat for individual encounters, my players felt the need to have a hand-drawn map of the whole dungeon. We've found that with the ability to zoom the projected map, it serves both purposes.

Even if you spend a lot of time preparing the map in advance like I do, the in-game time saved is enormous. I'd guess we have at least double the number of encounters per game session that we did when we were drawing maps in-game.

So even if the projected map doesn't help in setting the mood (it does!), and even if you don't use miniatures (they rock!), consider projecting your maps to cut the drudgery and get to the action!

--

Jans Carton
The Hypertext d20 SRD
http://www.d20srd.org/


----------



## Boredflak

One more thing:

If you want to set the mood and help your players visualize the environment, there's nothing like projecting visual aids! My players get all excited when I say "Oh! I have a picture of this..." and project it onto the table.

I use lots of Dungeon Magazine adventures. They have great artwork thats just begging to be scanned and projected. You can also find tons of great art, ready for projection, on the Wizards web site at:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ag

--

Jans Carton
The Hypertext d20 SRD
http://www.d20srd.org/


----------



## Hurtfultater

Boredflak said:
			
		

> *snip*




This is where a large scale collaborative project or a professional third party would come in handy.  There's no reason why you couldn't have an entire city mapped out, perhaps with multiple outlying surroundings.  Just by ripping off Paris and London in the 17-19th centuries, one can get great general city and street layouts, and while it would be a very large project to do an entire city, 3-5 regular contributors working over a couple months could provide a resource that many people would happily pay for.

Even as it is, publishing campaign notes to some community site could help people start making ever more detailed and robust settings, helping GMs who, like me, are both lazy and perfectionist.

There's no game like one in which your players can truly wander, but it requires a huge amount of preparation.  Being able to display or print maps on demand could give players a new sense of setting, scale, and immersion.


----------



## Steel_Wind

> EDIT: Robert (Steel Wind), what's the minimum buy in for an acceptable XVG DLP projector? I'm new to this projector scene and filled with a nerdly desire beyond all reckoning.




I'll throw together a primer on the options and costs a little later tonight or tomorrow if I can.


----------



## Shadowdancer

You guys should do a workshop at GenCon.

Or start a consulting business for others who want to do this.

Or a TV series: "Gamer Playroom Makeover."


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Projector costs are coming way down.  I work in AV support/video production, and the projectors we're buying right now at around $1800 do a better job than projectors we bought for $7000 just 3-4 years ago.  I concur with everything Steel Wind has said, he's done his homework on this subject.  

In particular, I agree with his comments regarding an under mounted projector - it sounds like a great idea, but for a number of practical reasons (which he listed) it probably won't work for most people.


----------



## S. Baldrick

Brilliant.  Nothing short of brilliant.  The plans for the game room have changed dramatically.


----------



## A'koss

That is _un-real._

Wait, lemme just wipe this dribble off my chin...

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, that is indeed the coolest gaming setup I've seen yet. Sheer genius guy - kudos +.


----------



## Gruns

*Very nice.*

Nice setup. I want one!

Makes me want to look into projecting normally, onto a vertical surface, using the NWN editor (or any other program that would work) and completely eliminating miniatures altogether.
This saves a lot of table space, and helps with some of the physical problems such as mirrors, distance, etc... Not to mention I see my wife allowing this kind of "traditional" setup moreso than a portable overhead kind of setup.
If only I had a $1000 to spend on a projector...  :\ 
Later!
Gruns


----------



## the Jester

This is fantastic... far beyond your average visual aid.

Holy crap and a half, mang.


----------



## Umbran

Boredflak said:
			
		

> So even if the projected map doesn't help in setting the mood (it does!), and even if you don't use miniatures (they rock!), consider projecting your maps to cut the drudgery and get to the action!




I think the whole map-projection thing is, as we'd say in my business, "technically sweet", but the sales pitches aren't working for me.

What is your time worth?  We're talking about on the order of an $800 setup.  Even if you say your time is worth $10/hour, you have to get to saving 80 hours of time before this comes up a win.  And, of course, the setup is useless if you're a DM who likes to "wing it".  If you aren't going to put in hours ahead of time making up maps (which is also cutting into your time saved), this is not a win.


----------



## dagger

But if you use a toolkit like the one with NWN you don' have to spend hours preparing maps.


----------



## Will

First, me, I come at things as a writer... personally, I'd find that more of a distraction than a boon, though it certainly looks neat. But... armshadows. It looks neat until you actually have to move things around.
Much of what I describe in a game is more detailed than a visual map, and I'd rather enhance the imagination aspect than the 'game' aspect.

Additionally, I could imagine that in play a lot of time would be spent going 'wait, loading this screen... hmm, it's not loading...' and so forth.

Then there's having to plan everything ahead of time. It looks really nifty... but doesn't seem a 'win' for people like me, ultimately. I'd love to go over to someone's house and watch it being used, though. 

Finally... 'NWN tools are available to anyone reading this'... you missed a clause. 'Who uses a PC rather than a Mac.' Not that I'm still bitter or anything.


----------



## Breakdaddy

Umbran said:
			
		

> I think the whole map-projection thing is, as we'd say in my business, "technically sweet", but the sales pitches aren't working for me.
> 
> What is your time worth?  We're talking about on the order of an $800 setup.  Even if you say your time is worth $10/hour, you have to get to saving 80 hours of time before this comes up a win.  And, of course, the setup is useless if you're a DM who likes to "wing it".  If you aren't going to put in hours ahead of time making up maps (which is also cutting into your time saved), this is not a win.




I cant argue with your time value statement, but I can say that I have made entire campaigns with the NWN toolkit and it doesnt take hours to do maps, ever. Scripting, now thats another story....ugh.


----------



## Boredflak

Umbran said:
			
		

> What is your time worth?  We're talking about on the order of an $800 setup.  Even if you say your time is worth $10/hour, you have to get to saving 80 hours of time before this comes up a win.




$10/hour is pretty low. That's only about 20k per year. We're all family men in my game. I'd say our average income is at least double that, but let's still use $10/hour.

Don't forget that for a "standard" party of four, you have five people sitting at the table. That's $50/hour (at $10/each). Now we're talking 16 hours of game-time savings to "come up a win". That's about three game sessions for us.

With all of the demands on my time, it's well worth it to me.


----------



## xnosipjpqmhd

Hey, Thanks for sharing the pics. Quick question:

Do you have to darken the room to be able to see the details in the projection? If so, does this hinder anything else, like reading, writing, etc.?



ironregime


----------



## Morrus

This is so fantastic that I have to show everyone.  I'm putting this on the main news page.  I've reduced the image slightly to fit, and am attaching the smaller image here for convenience.  Hope you don't mind, Steel_Wind!


----------



## Bran Blackbyrd

That setup is sick and insane; I love it.

Man if I had unlimited cash flow... or any cash flow.


----------



## Nareau

There's not much official info out there about the Mitsubishi pocket projector's brightness.  I did find this article:

http://www.insightmedia.info/news/CES05hilites.htm


> We spotted palm-sized projectors from the likes of Mitsubishi (shown in photo, InFocus, BenQ, Samsung and LG Electronics. All appear to be based upon using a 0.55-inch SVGA DLP chip set and have light output in the 10 to 30 lumens range. The InFocus, Samsung and BenQ units were concept products. Mitsubishi plans to sell its pocket projector for $599, and $699 with an optional battery. This seems like a very low price to us. The unit is very small and weighs only 400 grams. Brightness may be good enough for a 10 to15-inch image, but it is unclear if consumers will use such a product yet




Not even their press release makes mention of the brightness:
http://www.mitsubishielectric.com/news/2005/PVS PocketProjector 2-8-05.html

But who knows, maybe you could email the PR person at the bottom and get some answers...

Spider


----------



## Steel_Wind

Umbran said:
			
		

> And, of course, the setup is useless if you're a DM who likes to "wing it".  If you aren't going to put in hours ahead of time making up maps (which is also cutting into your time saved), this is not a win.




You apparently don't like to read - or you choose to disbelieve what I've said.

The maps displayed here were created in 2 minutes or less at the table.


----------



## thalmin

Boredflak said:
			
		

> $10/hour is pretty low. That's only about 20k per year. We're all family men in my game. I'd say our average income is at least double that, but let's still use $10/hour.
> 
> Don't forget that for a "standard" party of four, you have five people sitting at the table. That's $50/hour (at $10/each). Now we're talking 16 hours of game-time savings to "come up a win". That's about three game sessions for us.
> 
> With all of the demands on my time, it's well worth it to me.



We are also looking at enjoyment. If a setup like this improves your gaming experience, it's not just about time saved.
The idea of this just might be enough motivation for me to start working on some maps!


----------



## Umbran

Breakdaddy said:
			
		

> I cant argue with your time value statement, but I can say that I have made entire campaigns with the NWN toolkit and it doesnt take hours to do maps, ever.




Well, a quck glance at nwn.bioware.com didn't turn up the toolkit for free.  That means more money.  And I expect one cannot come up with lovely maps in 2 minutes the first time you take it out of the box.  Mastery of the tool takes time and effort.  I wouldn't be surprised if many of us would never get that kind of speed with the thing, since not everybody is lightning with a computer graphics tool.  



			
				Boredflak said:
			
		

> Don't forget that for a "standard" party of four, you have five people sitting at the table. That's $50/hour (at $10/each). Now we're talking 16 hours of game-time savings to "come up a win". That's about three game sessions for us.




Watch your accounting.  You should only count time that the system saves.  Unless you waste five hours each session seting up your maps, it'll take more sessions to make it worthwhile.   

I don't spend even spend an hour each session setting up battlemaps.  At the frequency we play, it could easily take a year for it to pay for itself.  Even more, because generally the time I spend setting up maps isn't fully wasted by my players - I often have the maps drawn beforehand, so I only waste my own time.  So now we're talkign multiple years before we hit break-even...

Time saved is nice, sure, but I'm thinking comparisons...  This setup costs about as much as 15+ really solid gaming books.  That's a lot of content I could be using.  Or, with that money, I could provide really good food for each session for an entire year.  Or buy CDs for background music, or...  You get the point.

So, I return - to those who know they really like minis in the first place, this is probably really nice.  Quite possibly worth it, then.  If I were independantly wealthy, I'd go for it, sure.  But for a normal pocket, it is a heck of an expenditure for a maybe.  The "go for it even if you don't use minis" line just doesn't strike me as wise.


----------



## Steel_Wind

ironregime said:
			
		

> Hey, Thanks for sharing the pics. Quick question:
> 
> Do you have to darken the room to be able to see the details in the projection? If so, does this hinder anything else, like reading, writing, etc.?




Yeah, we turn down the lights a little, especially in the afternoon.  There are two halogen torch lamps and two more endtables in the living room where we game plus a ceiling lamp in the adjoining dining room.  When we have the projector on, we reduce that to one Torch and one end table lamp and leave the dining room light on.

It is still very comfortable to read in, but it's a tad dimmer than you would probably choose to game in normally.

That is all a function of the projector you are using of course.  If you had a truly kick-ass projector like the Dell 2300MP ($1349, new) which pumps out 2400 ANSI lumens in XVGA with a contrast ratio which leaves your jaw hanging open, your projector would be bright enough that you could turn all the lights on in the room and add a few candles besides. 

Just to clarify though, we don't play in light as dim as the pics hint at.  We dimmed the lights deliberately to make sure we got a clear picture.  The image is *very* bright to the human eye but that is not properly conveyed in pictures. 

Also - the image is projected from the top down and is so bright that "arm shadows" hinted at by some posters simply aren't noticeable during actual use.  It's like saying a paper map is obscured by an arm shadow.  What you really mean to say is that it's obscured by the arm you can't see through. I know that intuitively you would expect these shadows to interfere - but I am telling you - it simply is not something which we notice at all during play. We sit around on couches about the table which is at coffee table height. When we look down at the map image,  the fact you can't see through someone's arm is not at all startling . If you got your eye level down parallel to the table I suppose you could see the shadow then - but it's just not something you notice normally.


----------



## LcKedovan

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> You are the most amazing DM I have ever seen.
> 
> I mean... really... _You let your guys drink hi-balls at the table!_





What, doesn't everyone?!?!

As for the setup.... awesome! And good to see it is up here in Toronto... if you guys ever have an open house to let people check it out, let me know! 

The possibilities are endless as to the map uses, not just NWN and Dunjini but anything you can project could be used in this manner with some small editing and slapping a grid on it. Imagine a Hex grid thrown on real Nebula pictures from the Hubble Telescope for a Traveller game..... *drool*

-W.


----------



## Frilf

Schleeeek! Nice set-up, guys! Color me envious...
Time to start saving up, I s'pose


----------



## Wild Gazebo

That is an amazing...awsome...just really cool setup.  I want one.  But, it really doesn't solve any of the problems I have with using minatures.


----------



## DethStryke

Nice setup for a travel capable. This is something I've been working towards myself. Right now I have a huge train layout table I got for 10 bucks that can seat 10 around it pretty easily if need be. I installed a surround sound system (5.1) around the table. Hooking that up to a sound blaster in my computer allows me to *move* the sounds around the table as I like for sound effect and music. Combine that with wireless networking and a mounted swingarm moniter mounted for a built-in computer or laptop, there is not much I *can't* do at the table.

The projector I am going to rig up to the ceiling to do what this is showing (projecting maps onto the table itself) and have a swivel built in to point it at the wall behind the DM seat. I plan on making cut scenes and animations for some special points in my games, which then can be shown on the screen behind me for the group to experience. For instance, I can make a Star Wars opening crawl for my d20SW game starts. With full surround and the re-mastered DVD audio tracks, the effect is stunning.

Some of the better things you can only do if you have a room dedicated for use as a gaming area. I'm a lucky man who has a wife who games (she actually rounded up here own group from her co-workers! We have to "schedule" uses of the game room now. heh. Horrible problem to have, huh? ) AND we have no children, which makes it easier.

So far the price is the sticking point. My gaming buddies are not very wealthy, so getting more than 10 bucks a week is not really an option. I'm going to try to save up, or run some kind of fund raiser to help out, I think. Might be a fun option for the group... build comradery and the like.

Speaking of which, many DVD players now can show Jpegs and the like from digital cameras or burned CDs. You can get a boxed DVD surround set for less than 200, which covers sound and audio. Plug that into your projector and run a disk with the files burned to it. As long as you make a handy index on paper to refer to, moving between pre-made maps is pretty easy. Those same DVDs can usually take Component (RGB) video connectors, so the quality should be quite high.

If there is interest, I have a nice and very inexpensive way to make speaker mounts that I can share with people. 25 bucks for a mount is just too much to pay when the system would cost less than the 5 mounts you need!


----------



## Slomoot

Well that's about the coolest thing ever... any chance of posting some more pictures?  I like the idea of using Neverwinter nights... awsome...


----------



## Boredflak

Slomoot said:
			
		

> any chance of posting some more pictures?




I have a bunch of pictures on the page Steel_Wind asked me to set up when he read my letter to Dungeon:

http://www.d20srd.org/extras/mapProjection.htm

I've seen other pix on other threads also. Steel_Wind probably has a list of URLs...


----------



## LcKedovan

Shadowdancer said:
			
		

> Or a TV series: "Gamer Playroom Makeover."




I can see it now....

"Pimp my Dice"

Now Robert is lovin' that phat gaming table goodness, but We're not done yet.. BAM we're adding a projecting battlemap to the mix here....  Check out the ANSI Lumens on that baby!

-W.


----------



## Richards

"I'm speechless.  Speechless!  I have no speech."

Johnathan


----------



## Gaiden

Krypter said:
			
		

> No need to be rude, Patryn. I already know about that project. Notice that it isn't finished yet, and that it only deals with Sigil, not the entirety of the planes? Nothing about Pandemonium or Mechanus there. It still doesn't address my problem of how would you present the wonders of the planes outside of a generic tileset, or where you would get miniatures of exotic planar creatures. Some may exist, some may not. That by itself limits your options, whereas your imagination is limitless.




I have to voice my incredulity.  I really don't think you are being fair here.  Sure, any thing in the physical world will have bounds that your imagination can surpass.  However, I can't help but feel that Steel_wind deserves a standing ovation.  I can imagine a bridge over lava:  stone obsidian with carefully crafted tiles that are worn from heat and traffic, with an underside that looks like glass because of the polishing effects of the heat.  Square columns rise on either end of the bridge and the lava is a mixture of orange, red and black with pustules of sulfer rising in geyser like spouts, blah blah blah.

Which is cooler?  That description with the visual aid, or without it?  Certainly the projector set up only adds to the flavor.


----------



## Wrathamon

> Trying to figure out how big an image I could get by projecting the image from the floor below the table (home-made 1/2" plywood 4'x8') through frosted glass (no shadows on the map, can mark on the glass.




Why not just buy a LCD screen tv and lay it on its back?


----------



## spacemonkey

I've been mulling over doing something like this for a while, but usually decide the price isn't worth it.  I hadn't checked on DLP prices in a while, and now they are looking much more affordable... Perhaps I'd better rethink my stance


----------



## ptolemy18

That's a pretty cool idea!

I always play D&D with miniatures.

And, I'd also love to be able to use a projector (or just a giant computer screen with Powerpoint, or something like that). It would be really cool to be able to say "you're walking through the forest" and project this big image of some green forest scanned outta NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC or something. (Occasionally I show players pictures from books, etc., but it'd be nice to be able to blow them up on a big screen.) I also like using music and so forth.

But... personally, I'm not very excited by the idea of projecting giant "DunDjinni" and "Neverwinter Nights"-style maps on the miniatures board. Those fancy color maps are nice, yeah, but the only REALLY important thing with a map is, "Can you tell where everything is? Are the lines between the squares visible, or are they obscured by a bunch of color stuff?" 

So, I love the idea of using technology to enhance a game, but IMHO, I'd rather just take 30 seconds and draw some lines on a BattleMat to show where the dungeon walls are, and THEN say "To the north is a rough-hewn passage with fungus and mushrooms growing out of the walls. To the east you see a wooden door with a rusty padlock chained to it."

But that's my personal bias. I've never been very excited about map-creating software. Maps are supposed to be functional first and pretty second. (And if I really want to, I can just draw something myself...)

Sorry, I just had to throw in a dissenting opinion. It's still an amazing idea though! 

Jason


----------



## ptolemy18

Will said:
			
		

> First, me, I come at things as a writer... personally, I'd find that more of a distraction than a boon, though it certainly looks neat. But... armshadows. It looks neat until you actually have to move things around.
> Much of what I describe in a game is more detailed than a visual map, and I'd rather enhance the imagination aspect than the 'game' aspect.



That's kind of where I'm coming from too. I like the idea of using a projector or other visual aids for a game, this just isn't the first thing I'd choose to do with it. I'd rather show pictures of things the characters encounter.



> Finally... 'NWN tools are available to anyone reading this'... you missed a clause. 'Who uses a PC rather than a Mac.' Not that I'm still bitter or anything.



You said it! It's so cruel for us Mac users... (sob sob) 

Jason


----------



## Boredflak

ptolemy18 said:
			
		

> "Can you tell where everything is? Are the lines between the squares visible, or are they obscured by a bunch of color stuff?"




This is really the time saver for me. My players demand to have a very accurate map. We have a great time with the table top tactics aspect of the game.

My players like to focus on problem solving, plot resolution, character design, and combat.  I can certainly see how a projected map would be less useful for a game that focuses on character personality development and storytelling.

All of my maps are scanned from Dungeon magazine and all DM-only info is edited out. I'm kind of a Photoshop monkey, so it doesn't take me much time. Gridlines and terrain details are very visible.


----------



## edge3343

You may have already answered this but, how do you get the scale right and how do you project a 1" grid using the NWN toolset?


----------



## Aeric

In my group, we used the host's big screen TV (hooked up to his computer) to display the big dungeon map from RttToEE.  We used a laser pointer to indicate stuff on the map, and the host used his wireless mouse to zoom in and out and move the map around for us.


----------



## Maelfactor

*Under Table Design*

I worked on an under table projector system as a test project with a previous employer.

The major concern was the distance required between the projector and the surface. The solution was to mount the projector (a small one from BlackBox) directly underneath the table top, but offset to one side. It pointed downword at an angle towards an optical grade mirror (one where the silvering is on the front of the glass so that there was no refraction). The mirror could be smaller than expected as it was approximately 1/2 the distance so that the image was not full-sized. The throw distance for a 24" x 36" image was about 6' and could be achieved in this method. The keystone function of the projector was used to make the final image square on the surface. The surface was a sheet of plexiglass with a vellum sheet attached to catch the image.

FYI: You can get optical grade mirrors from inside old Projection TVs.


----------



## kpdezend

*I hate to tell you...*

...and it is a nice setup, it really is...

But my groups setup is a bit better, and is about to get an upgrade.  

I will try to remember to post pictures and such here when we do (until then, wait in suspense!)  

I like the projector from on top though, it is different.  

 - Kent -


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Maelfactor said:
			
		

> The throw distance for a 24" x 36" image was about 6' and could be achieved in this method.




This is the challenge for most projector undermount situations.  We have projectors at work that can project that size image from 3' - 4' away, but wide angle lenses like that are a little pricier.  If you're really interested in an undermounted situation, you'd probably be best going with some form of flat screen TV.

BTW, the advantage of using a projector over a TV is the ability to fine tune the scaling/size of image via the projector's zoom controls.


----------



## Droogie

ptolemy18 said:
			
		

> That's a pretty cool idea!
> 
> I always play D&D with miniatures.
> 
> And, I'd also love to be able to use a projector (or just a giant computer screen with Powerpoint, or something like that). It would be really cool to be able to say "you're walking through the forest" and project this big image of some green forest scanned outta NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC or something. (Occasionally I show players pictures from books, etc., but it'd be nice to be able to blow them up on a big screen.) I also like using music and so forth.
> 
> But... personally, I'm not very excited by the idea of projecting giant "DunDjinni" and "Neverwinter Nights"-style maps on the miniatures board. Those fancy color maps are nice, yeah, but the only REALLY important thing with a map is, "Can you tell where everything is? Are the lines between the squares visible, or are they obscured by a bunch of color stuff?"
> 
> So, I love the idea of using technology to enhance a game, but IMHO, I'd rather just take 30 seconds and draw some lines on a BattleMat to show where the dungeon walls are, and THEN say "To the north is a rough-hewn passage with fungus and mushrooms growing out of the walls. To the east you see a wooden door with a rusty padlock chained to it."
> 
> But that's my personal bias. I've never been very excited about map-creating software. Maps are supposed to be functional first and pretty second. (And if I really want to, I can just draw something myself...)
> 
> Sorry, I just had to throw in a dissenting opinion. It's still an amazing idea though!
> 
> Jason





I feel the same way. At the risk of sounding curmudgeon-y, I prefer to keep the game as lo-tech as possible. The Nice thing about D&D is that its a game that you can still play by candlelight during a blackout. If the game has gotten to the point where everyone needs their laptops at the table, you might as well hook up a LAN and play NWN. 

Ah well. Sour grapes, jealousy, and all that.


----------



## Dragonblade

edge3343 said:
			
		

> You may have already answered this but, how do you get the scale right and how do you project a 1" grid using the NWN toolset?




Simple, he projects it onto a standard wet erase playmat that already has the 1 inch grid on it.


----------



## Furry

I have to say that our setup with a simple playmat with the 1" grid, some minatures and a small horde of Lego men feels woefully inadequate at this point.  After showing your setup to my roommates we came up with three conclusions:

1)  We're poor students and you are not
2)  You're higher level geeks than we are
3)  We're incredibly jealous

I'm going to echo the earlier sentiment, if you ever want to have a couple people over to ogle, just let me know.


----------



## Green Knight

Oh my God, that is stupefyingly beautiful!  Congrats for the creative thinking. Man, how I wish I could emulate your feat.


----------



## Acid_crash

I'm really jealous and also inspired to try and make my future games a lot funner now that I have seen the light of possibilities.


----------



## Razz0putin

and I thought I was cool when I got et-helper working  :\


----------



## Eurosolo

I am definately envious of this set-up. The time and money investment in a project like this might make it difficult to copy with many gaming groups. However, it is the COOLEST design I have seen!


----------



## Steel_Wind

Droogie said:
			
		

> I feel the same way. At the risk of sounding curmudgeon-y, I prefer to keep the game as lo-tech as possible. The Nice thing about D&D is that its a game that you can still play by candlelight during a blackout. If the game has gotten to the point where everyone needs their laptops at the table, you might as well hook up a LAN and play NWN.
> 
> Ah well. Sour grapes, jealousy, and all that.




Well, I shouldn't be one to beat up on NWN. BioWare hired me and the rest of my team to create most of the art content for their upcoming Premium  Modules.

So, NWN has been pretty good to me.

But for all of that, I'm the first to admit that compared to our normal pnp gaming sessions, NWN can't compete. Nor can Lineage II or World of Warcraft or any other CRPG, MMORPG or other computer game.

I don't have to sell anyone reading this thread on the sheer entertainment value and depth of game experience that a traditional face to face, over the tabletop RPG provides.

But that does not mean that we can't improve on it.  It does not mean that we cannot make it more compelling and fun to play - and most of all, it does not mean that we cannot benefit from technology during our game sessions.   Our  objective throughout has been to steal some of the sizzle from computer games, while at the same time cut out  the restrictions and the nonsense behind them.

The more I have used the projector in our game sessions, the more I feel that we may be truly on to something. If the price of projectors continues to fall, if the output possible from a portable projector like Mitsubishi's PocketProjector continues to rise and the underlying hardware and software surrounding all of this gets better and more focussed (or even if we have a diferent display technology which accomplishes the same thing, like a flexible LCD battlemat you could unroll and plug in)...

Then 5 years from now, setups like these can become more common, if not commonplace.  And with some custom developed software to make it easier to do this sort of thing, we might be able to expand this hobby again and make it *cool*.

Five year ago there was a lot of pooh-poohing of laptops and RPGs.  They were too expensive to ever ever be common enough to have any impact at the gaming table.

Well the price dropped and the used market in laptops got big - and now the discussions include how people use their laptops at sessions - not if they have one or not. The .pdf has become all the rage as a result. 

Projector technology and high power LED lights made by Luxeon are getting to the point where this is not a matter of if they will be cheap enough to become commonplace, it's a matter of when.  Texas Instruments' patent on the DMD array, the chip that is at the heart of all DLP projectors, expires in 2008. We will then see a flood of competition and a further significant price drop will follow.

Seriously - if you were 12-14 years old and you saw a bunch of people all excited around a table rolling dice with these minatures and this snazzy moving color digital map - there is an instant *sizzle* that can connect with the player and draw him in and do so in a way that little else can.  

I believe that - properly done - EA, NcSoft and Sony etc.; they cannot compete with this.  

The imagination and the story telling, impromptu acts and improvisation, and all the social camaraderie   -  we already know that these things are the substance and meat of RPGs.

But if we have more sizzle to make the game more fun for ourselves - and to permit the game to connect and appeal to others in order to allow it to expand and grow, I don't  think that can ever be a bad thing.


----------



## DethStryke

*I kid, I kid...*



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Seriously - if you were 12-14 years old and you saw a bunch of people all excited around a table rolling dice with these minatures and this snazzy moving color digital map - there is an instant *sizzle* that can connect with the player and draw him in and do so in a way that little else can.
> 
> I believe that - properly done - EA, NcSoft and Sony etc.; they cannot compete with this.




Yea, but being over the internet keeps the crazy gamers who don't bathe from knowing where you live!


----------



## Chairman7w

Man - why all the hate?  (Answer: Jealousy)

That truly IS the collest gaming setup ever.  VERY cool!  Nice job!


----------



## Von Ether

Astos said:
			
		

> This is very cool.  One step closer to ultimate cool would be to be able to project from underneath onto some kind of rear projection surface so that arms, miniatures, and other objects don't get in the way of the light.



 But then your books and arms cover up the map and it can't be seen. This was the project puts the map on EVERYTHING on the table. You can have your book out and still share space with the map unless everyone goes over the tiny treasure chest projected on top of your book cover.


----------



## Steel_Wind

There are strengths and limitations to either top down or bottom up projection.

I think its fair to say that bottom-up projection is, all things being equal, preferential for actual use during play.  I have no argument with this observation and I agree with it.

But all things are not equal.  Bottom projection requires a special table and  a special projector.  It increases expense, abandons convenient portability and flexible use of the projector for Home Theatre when not used for gaming - all in pursuit of eliminating shadows and map obscurement. For the most part, these perceived problems rear projection addresses do not actually manifest during play or interfere with the enjoyment of the top-down projected map nearly as much as people who have not tried it think it does. 

My point: you need to try the top-down technology before you start poking holes in it. It's not as problematic as you think. And it's affordable for many ENworlders, right now for use in your living room.  You can actually do this for your gaming group.


----------



## Slayden

Man great minds think alike about a month back i got the idea to use a projector to enhance my groups game.  I hadn't thought to use it in the maner of combining Fig's and most likely won't due to my ceiling not being high enough.    My set up thus far is just projecting a map on the wall and with the magic of photoshop which can put a visible grid on any pic.   The nice part with photo is that you can have multiple layers to overlay yer map in black and reveal it as the gamers move about.   I'd say the projector is a good buy for any group plus it play movies so well.


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty

My only concern would be burning out the projector since it would be on for very prolonged periods of time. I could be wrong, but I don't think they're meant to be on for 6-8 hours at a time (at least not the economical ones).


----------



## ColonelHardisson

The only way to top this is to have that big, specially-built gaming table I've seen pics of floating around the net be where the projection goes. 

Very cool.


----------



## Dragonblade

Would it be possible for the mods to save and turn Steel Winds posts into some sort of feature article on ENWorld? Create an article titled: "How to setup a digital projection gaming environment." or something. I really think this is worth saving


----------



## pogre

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> But if we have more sizzle to make the game more fun for ourselves - and to permit the game to connect and appeal to others in order to allow it to expand and grow, I don't  think that can ever be a bad thing.




Absolutely! I take a slightly different method - using miles and miles of Master Maze, Hirst Arts Dungeon rooms and buildings, and miniatures to create 3d scenes at the table, and that stuff just draws kids to the game. 

I'm thinking about using your methods for some convention games I run - lugging all of my dungeon stuff around is just not practical for every Con. I recently ran a massive dungeon scenario at a local convention and it took me a couple of hours to just pack the stuff! Totally worth it for the reaction at the con though

Thanks for sharing - I think it is very cool - and will probably try to use it soon.


----------



## skinnydwarf

Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> My only concern would be burning out the projector since it would be on for very prolonged periods of time. I could be wrong, but I don't think they're meant to be on for 6-8 hours at a time (at least not the economical ones).




Then only use the projector during combat.  I hope your combat scenes don't last that long


----------



## Steel_Wind

Will said:
			
		

> Finally... 'NWN tools are available to anyone reading this'... you missed a clause. 'Who uses a PC rather than a Mac.' Not that I'm still bitter or anything.




To you and the other bitter NWN Mac user...

You should be aware that you are not shut out of the fun.  Neveredit .80 was released a few weeks ago and it supports full NWN toolset creation on Mac OS X.

The relevant link is here:  http://openknights.sourceforge.net/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=neveredit


----------



## Steel_Wind

Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> My only concern would be burning out the projector since it would be on for very prolonged periods of time. I could be wrong, but I don't think they're meant to be on for 6-8 hours at a time (at least not the economical ones).




Our projector is on for about 6 hours or so a session. It depends on the environment the players are in, of course. It's sometimes less - sometimes more I suppose.

6-8 hours would often be about right.

There is no problem with leaving a DLP on this long.  It does consume the overall hours available on your bulb of course - but it does not "break" the projector.  Some older LCD models could develop a black spot on the centre of the TFT from heat build-up, but this is not a problem with DLPs (or newer LCDs, for that matter).


----------



## JDragon

Well along with most everyone else I have to say that this is a great set up.

I had thought of doing this several years before the article you mentioned from Dragon, but have not been in the right place to do it, and had issues convincing the wife it was worth the money.  (I'll be showing her your set up as soon as she gets home from her trip tonight  )

I had always guessed it work, but its great to see it in action.

The information you have provided in this thread will be invaulable to trying to get this set up for my games.

Please keep the info and pics coming.


----------



## Boredflak

Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> My only concern would be burning out the projector since it would be on for very prolonged periods of time. I could be wrong, but I don't think they're meant to be on for 6-8 hours at a time (at least not the economical ones).




I've been using my old 'n busted projector (InFocus LP425z) for about three years of game sessions. One session per week, for about 8-10 hours each (we're kind of marathon gamers). I haven't burned out a bulb yet. We have a backup bulb I bought for a song on ebay, but it's still in it's box.

We used my company's Infocus LP425 for a couple of years before that. It was still working fine when I quit the company. I don't know if I've just been lucky, or if the gaming gods are lookin' out for me, but so far so good...


----------



## Steel_Wind

ironregime said:
			
		

> Hey, Thanks for sharing the pics. Quick question:
> 
> Do you have to darken the room to be able to see the details in the projection? If so, does this hinder anything else, like reading, writing, etc.?




Just a follow up on this as a result of our session this evening.

We switched from our usual brownish/beige battle mat to a white blind as a projection surface this evening.

I am not as much a fan of this surface only because I prefer the grid to be on the projection surface (and our white surface does not have a grid on it) - but the white vs. brown is a massive spike in the resulting brightness factor.

The difference in the lighting from our 1600 ANSI Lumens projector was pretty significant.  We did not dim any of the lights nor did we need to.  We had all 5 of them on and didn't dim a single light.  The picture was still very clear.


----------



## ecliptic

*pictures a flat screen HDTV built into a table*

One day.



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Just a follow up on this as a result of our session this evening.
> 
> We switched from our usual brownish/beige battle mat to a white blind as a projection surface this evening.
> 
> I am not as much a fan of this surface only because I prefer the grid to be on the projection surface (and our white surface does not have a grid on it) - but the white vs. brown is a massive spike in the resulting brightness factor.
> 
> The difference in the lighting from our 1600 ANSI Lumens projector was pretty significant.  We did not dim any of the lights nor did we need to.  We had all 5 of them on and didn't dim a single light.  The picture was still very clear.





You need to take the white mat to Kinkos and have them put a grid on it.

I also recommend you get some kinda fantasy theme for Windows. So the Start button isn't so obtrusive.


----------



## Will

Thanks for link to Neveredit... maybe I'll finally buy NWN now!

(I was looking forward to it for years. When I heard no Mac toolset... I passed on buying it.)


----------



## Frostmarrow

Does the room get hot?

Can you supply more pictures? I like it!


----------



## Steel_Wind

No the room does not get hot at all.   

I am working on a Complete Guide to Digital Map Projection.  It may take me a week or two to finish it up, but when its ready you should have all you need to know about the technology, the software, the options, the cost of the various options and hot to get started for your own group.

I'll include new pictures at that time.

Thanks for the interest


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty

Cool. I guess burning it out isn't an issue. One less thing to worry about


----------



## jodyjohnson

I've been researching projectors all weekend and it's not that easy finding a projector that will work.

1.  Minimum throw distance.  Many projectors have a minimum throw distance of 5' or farther (it won't focus closer than 5').  Clearing 5' from table to lens is the best we can do in our basement.

2.  Brightness.  Most of the newer projectors are almost too bright at 5' or less since they are designed for comfortable viewing at closer to 10-20 feet of throw distance.

3.  Image/Throw distance.  It's tough to find a wide angle projector.  Several projectors with 5' minimum throw only give you a 36" image.  Ideally you want more of a 48"-60" image at 5'.

I can definately see why projection from underneath is rough since the gaming table isn't usually 5' off the floor.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

ecliptic said:
			
		

> You need to take the white mat to Kinkos and have them put a grid on it.




Actually, you can get flipchart paper in 1" grids.  Use that instead - then you can draw on it if need be (to denote spell effect areas, etc) and toss the sheet at the end of the battle.

Office Depot used to have 50 sheet pads fo $9.99


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> Does the room get hot?




The room shouldn't get hot, but some of the projectors might be a bit noisy.  Boredflak's InFocus is probably a little noisy, but the one Steel Wind has should bemuch quieter.

In regards to the lamp heating up too much - it's not normally an issue.  Don't put anything to cover the vents on the projector (say, to muffle the above-mentioned noise) and you'll be fine.



			
				Ogrok the Mighty said:
			
		

> My only concern would be burning out the projector since it would be on for very prolonged periods of time.




Our projectors at work get used 6-8 hours all the time.  The only issue is lamp life - which in the newer models is working its way up to 2,000-3,000 hours.  Some can be set at low brightness or high brightness.  For example, we just bought a couple of Epson PowerLite 81p's.  They're $1800, 2000 Lumens at high brightness, 1500 lumens at low.  1500 lumens is still pretty good, good enough to allow you to see the projectionfairly well in a daylit room.  At low brightness, the lamp would last 3,000 hours.  That's 500 6 hour sessions.  It can also project a 30" image at 2.9 feet distance.


----------



## Urklore

Oooo, Complete Guide to Digital Map Projection!


----------



## Der Voongden

Hey Steelwind ... i live in the Toronto area, looking for any more gamers?


----------



## 3d6+15

*What Projector?*

I'm not seeing mention of exactly which projector brand and model Steelwind and crew using.  

I'm in love with the idea and am researching (price hunting really) to be a copycat myself.  

I have a massive gaming surface in my basement whose surface is 5'7" away from the ceiling that's just begging for a setup like this. 

I'm looking forward to that guide!


----------



## Steel_Wind

We are using an Optoma EZPRO 750.  The device is no longer manufactured by Optoma who discontinued its production last year, but it still can be found new from many retailers.

That is not, however, the projector I would buy if I had a choice and a decent budget.  We got that one off of e-bay simply because it was one of the more attractive models which met our minimum specs and was available at the time.  We got lucky on our lamp and unit.  You are not likely to be as lucky.

If money is really not your major concern, I would recommend the Dell2300MP. It retails for $1349, brand spanking new, at 2400 Lumens it is daylight bright with a contrast ratio which is among the best in class. Best of all  - its XGA native mode at 1024x768 so your picture will be sharp and have vibrant color.

At a throw distance of 5'7", depending on the zoom factor you employ, you will get a diagonal resolution of between 36" and 43" for that projector.  That is about average for a DLP at that throw distance.

The brightness, contrast and reosolution are exceptional on this projector.  You will have a very fine piece of hardware for your money - very nice for Home Theatre use as well if you plan to employ it for that purpose.

For a SVGA projector, meaning only 800x600 resolution, there are a lot of other options.  

The Dell 2200MP is 1200 ANSI and will give you 39" to 47" at the that throw range.  The Dell's price is once again - AWESOMELY attractive and probably makes this the most favored choice of gamers looking to get in on this technology.  Currently, Dell is selling the 2200MP for $719.  That is incredibly cheap folks.

For a brand new projector, that's pretty hard to beat.  You'd be doing *very* well to get a used projector off of e-bay for much less than that.

The Dell 2200MP has to be a front-runner for a lot of people on ENworld.

If image size is your goal, the Sony VPL-DS100 can give you an image from 48" to 59" or so at that throw range. It has a street price of about $1,000.00-$1,100 - and it's at 1200 ANSI.

When given a choice, I would choose brightnesss over size, any day.  For images larger than 44" or so, I would want a XGA - not SVGA projector.  Your image is going to become visibly pixellated at times if you go for the Sony.

A final reminder: If you look to buy your projector used off of e-bay, you need to be VERY aware of the fact that your lamp is definitely used. How used? You don't really know - no matter what the seller says.

What you must remember is that it is $300-$400+ to replace your lamp in a DLP projector. One can be penny wise and pound foolish buying used.

An unknown used projector for $600-650 or so vs. a brand new 2200MP from Dell for $719?

You don't need me to tell you where the smart money goes on that prospective purchase.


----------



## 3d6+15

Woohoo!  My first double post. 

Sorry.  Any way for me to delete this?


----------



## 3d6+15

Wow the 2200MP appears to be a fantastic value!

I'm tempted to buy something like your highest option there, and while I have the means, I am not so sure I have the will.  (Funny, I didn't mind spending $1000 on the laptop I only use for DM'ing.)  

Thank you for the information!  I've got a lot of hunting and deciding and planning to do.


----------



## The_Universe

I need this! For me!

Now if only my players were millionaires, they could get it for me for DM's day...


----------



## Steel_Wind

Millionaires?

While this technology is not as cheap as a pair of dice, at $719 USD for a brand new projector, it costs less than the large majority of most of the computers people are using to read this message and less still than most of the laptops kicking around at the gaming session.

Do try to keep the cost in perspective

A recent ENWorld poll had a substantial number of gamers indicating that they spent about $100 a month on gaming stuff.

Especially if a group chips in for a projector, $719 is hardly cost prohibitive.  For a group of five gamers, gaming once a week, that's less than a $1 a game session over the course of three years.  IF your group is larger - the costs per player only goes down.

Would you RENT one of those for, say, 16 cents per hour to game with? I'm guessing the answer for many if not MOST here is yes.

It is not cheap, admittedly...

But millionaires? No.  This is affordable technology.


----------



## pogre

Ordered a Dell2300MP on your recommendation. Looking forward to using it. Thanks - I've enjoyed this thread a lot.


----------



## Steel_Wind

pogre said:
			
		

> Ordered a Dell2300MP on your recommendation. Looking forward to using it. Thanks - I've enjoyed this thread a lot.




AWESOME!  Glad to be able to help and inspire you and your group.

Please take pics and let me know how it turns out.  I look forward to hearing (and seeing)  about your experiences.


----------



## Doc_Klueless

Love your set up.

Quick question before I take a nap before working the night shift: How do you do the "fog of war" stuff to hide things from the players.

{Two more years. Just two more years of night shift and then I can call it quits and move to days.... }


----------



## The_Universe

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Millionaires?
> 
> While this technology is not as cheap as a pair of dice, at $719 USD for a brand new projector, it costs less than the large majority of most of the computers people are using to read this message and less still than most of the laptops kicking around at the gaming session.
> 
> Do try to keep the cost in perspective
> 
> A recent ENWorld poll had a substantial number of gamers indicating that they spent about $100 a month on gaming stuff.
> 
> Especially if a group chips in for a projector, $719 is hardly cost prohibitive.  For a group of five gamers, gaming once a week, that's less than a $1 a game session over the course of three years.  IF your group is larger - the costs per player only goes down.
> 
> Would you RENT one of those for, say, 16 cents per hour to game with? I'm guessing the answer for many if not MOST here is yes.
> 
> It is not cheap, admittedly...
> 
> But millionaires? No.  This is affordable technology.



 I was exaggerating, of course. 

I'd let them chip in even if they were otherwise destitute. Priorities!


----------



## Pbartender

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> ...(or even if we have a diferent display technology which accomplishes the same thing, like a flexible LCD battlemat you could unroll and plug in)...




Do a Google search for "flexible" "LCD".

Samsung, Toshiba and Philips have been working on it for some time already.  The Philips' technology is called 'Paintable LCD'.  That's right...  Just like in _Traveller_.

Give it a couple years, and you'll have that LCD Battlemat.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

pogre said:
			
		

> Ordered a Dell2300MP on your recommendation. Looking forward to using it. Thanks - I've enjoyed this thread a lot.




YOU BASSSSSSSSSSSSSTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRD!

You just had to give us all another reason to hate your gaming setup.

Feel free to ship me any Master Maze you decide to mothball.   

Wulf


----------



## pogre

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> YOU BASSSSSSSSSSSSSTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRD!
> 
> You just had to give us all another reason to hate your gaming setup.
> 
> Feel free to ship me any Master Maze you decide to mothball.
> 
> Wulf




Oh no - I'll never mothball my 3d goodies.The projector is definitely for stuff like magma filled chambers and convention games. You're always welcome at my gaming table though


----------



## Steel_Wind

Pbartender said:
			
		

> Do a Google search for "flexible" "LCD".
> 
> Samsung, Toshiba and Philips have been working on it for some time already.  The Philips' technology is called 'Paintable LCD'.  That's right...  Just like in _Traveller_.
> 
> Give it a couple years, and you'll have that LCD Battlemat.




I know. I've been following flexible TFT R&D for a while for just that reason. 

I think 5-10 years plus is a better time frame for these though.  The plants required to make large panel LCD's are extremely expensive to tool up for.  The current manufacturing process for TFT has a reject rate that begins to soar geometrically the larger you make the panels.

Still - either way: if its cheap ass projection or cheap ass super sized  LCD panels - we win


----------



## Steel_Wind

> Love your set up.
> 
> Quick question before I take a nap before working the night shift: How do you do the "fog of war" stuff to hide things from the players.




We deal with fog of war in several ways.  One, in particular, I shall detail here and show you how it looks as you can use this with a laptop to your TV if you don't have a projector. 

1 . *No See; No Show:*  Fog of War is easy when it comes to critters. Just don’t place the minis down on the map unless the party can see em. 

2.* Fudge it with Scrolling:*  The map visible in the NWN toolset window can be scrolled a little bit at a time.  As I tend to use NWN for outside encounters or simple interiors, this is usually not a problem to just scroll your window so that the not visible part is…well…not visible on the tabletop until it needs to be.  For something like caves – again – pan and scan scrolling of the visible map seems to work very well in most cases.

[Note:  *NWN Game Client*: the game client has camera blockers and LOS built-in, so in theory this should work well.  Sounds cool right? Sadly, it does not work in practice. The problem is one of scale.  Even zoomed out to the max distance, the NWN game and DM client will show too little of the screen all at once on the tabletop, The toolset’s zoom feature is unrestricted so this problem does not arise in the toolset.]

3: *Photoshop and layer masks.*  While I don’t use this approach, Jans Carton (who is a pro photographer in his day job) uses Photoshop and layer masks to add fog of war obscuration to his maps.  He prepares his maps ahead of time with Photoshop then erases the black mask layer, a bit at a time, as his players explore.  He puts secret doors and traps on a separate layer – and reveals those also when appropriate using the eraser.  The effect during game sessions is shown on his LCD projector page here:

4: *TableTop Mapper*: This is my preferred solution for dungeon interiors where the layout of the complex and corridors and positions of rooms and secret doors is important.  Jans computer is a Mac and can’t use Tabletop Mapper. I have a PC.  For me – Tabletop Mapper is ideal.

It’s pretty simple.  Let me show you an example of how it works.

For this, we will use a recent map from Dungeon #119 _The Tomb of Aknar Ratalla._  This map is available as a free download off of Paizo’s site – a service they started to provide to readers after Jans Carton wrote Paizo about his need for clean maps to work with for use with tabletop projection.

So you export this pic from your .pdf and save it as a jpg. 

Now, fire up tabletop mapper, and Load Picture.  You've got this to look at essentially:

http://www.dladventures.com/gallery/public/tomb.jpg
[removed direct link to to login prompt - Kid Charlemagne]

Now Choose Grid>Select Grid

Your mouse now changes to a cross hair. You can draw a box anywhere on the image.  Whatever size box you draw will be tiled across the entire map.  In this case, there is already a grid on Paizo’s map. We just want ours to match it in size. So make your box the same size as the one on the map. It amounts to digital tracing.  My six year old son can do it.  

[A further note: if the artist fudged the grid in the map so it is not to scale or is uses a partial grid square next to a wall ….well…let me just say that TableTop Mapper will give you an abiding hatred of such a practice.  ENWorlder MerricB carped about this to Dungeon in Prison Mail a few issues back.] 

Now – the “hard” part. In order to prepare your map for play, you will want to define your areas. You can number these to correspond to the room numbers on your map if you like or choose whatever scheme suits your fancy. Whatever the case, you do this by looking under the menu Map Preparation and simply using your mouse and left clicking a grid cell to attach it to that defined area. (And yes, a grid cell can be set to be part of more than one area).  After you have finished blocking it off that area, you choose “hide area. Poof. That room is done. Since you have hidden it, the image under it now goes black.  Wash, rinse & repeat for your entire map.

You end up with this:

http://www.dladventures.com/gallery/public/tomb2.jpg
[removed direct link to to login prompt - Kid Charlemagne]
Time it takes for each map is obviously dependent upon the complexity of the map – but it is not a long process. 10 minutes for the map, if that? Something like that. Not a lot.

When you load your map in a saved state, it will be with all areas hidden and completely black. I tend to keep just the entrance visible so I unhide that portion. You then use your mouse to unhide adjoining areas, one area at a time by clicking on it and choosing “unhide” as the party explores.  As the players explores during the game, more of the map is displayed, thusly:

http://www.dladventures.com/gallery/public/tomb1.jpg
[removed direct link to to login prompt - Kid Charlemagne]

TableTop Mapper allows you to save the state of your map, so that if you need to end your session with only some of the map being displayed, it will remember what’s been revealed and what has not.  Pretty nifty huh?

Total cost of Tabletop Mapper? Zero dollars and Zero cents.  It’s available as a free download right here.

One last thing – there is a spell area of effect tool in Tabletop Mapper which is nifty.  So you can use it to highlight the map being projected on the tabletop and it will show you exactly what grid squares will be effected by a spell effect of that radius.  For common spells like fireball – this is a very handy little digital tool to use in game on the tabletop.


----------



## punkorange

can it unhide in a radius?  like character's using a torch?

It looks nice.  I have the projector this weekend, I will have to download this program and work on maps


----------



## jpargeter

As an adjunct, our gaming group recently decided to build our own battlemat - I believe our illustrious carpenter spent all of $15. for a 5'x8' piece of "shower wall board" which we scored with a box cutter in a 1" grid.  Voila! a battlemat wich will readily take dry erase or wet erase markers, and would be an ideal surface for this top-down projection idea!

I'll start working on the guys immediately!


----------



## Boredflak

punkorange said:
			
		

> can it unhide in a radius?  like character's using a torch?




This is one of the things I like about using Photoshop. I can reveal exactly what I want. 

Other Photoshop niceties:

- Really easy zooming so you can see the whole layout.
- Scrolling via the "hand tool" - much faster and more accurate than using scroll bars.
- Great spell area effects including transparency, outlining, snap-to-grid, snap-to-center.
- Auto grid creation when needed.
- Full screen mode on the projector with tool palettes and menus on the computer display.
- Text tool for player notes.
- Layers and layer sets for organizing map elements (you can even have multiple maps in one document).

Of course there are some drawbacks:

Price - At $650 it's almost as expensive as the projector. Photoshop Elements is "only" $100, but I'm not familiar with it's features. Price alone will rule this out for many folks.

Complexity - Photoshop is a professional image editing program. It's complicated. Don't think you're going to learn it easily.

Difficulty - It takes some practice to become proficient in using all of the tools and brushes. I've become very adroit and fast at editing maps in-game, but the first few game sessions were a bit tedious.


----------



## Keeper of Secrets

That projector is one of the coolest props I have ever seen in a RPG campaign.  Ever.  EVER.


----------



## dravot

Mad props to youse guys.  Very clever, and I'm quite jealous


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

A neat trick you could use in photoshop would be to cover the entire map with a black layer, and use the erase tool on that layer to reveal what the PC's can see - this wold eliminate any need to pre-prep areas to mask off...

This may be what Steel Wind was referring to, but he wasn't specific enough for me to tell...


----------



## punkorange

See now im torn between photoshop and that other mapping software.  I know photoshop so I will probably go with it.


----------



## Boredflak

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> A neat trick you could use in photoshop would be to cover the entire map with a black layer, and use the erase tool on that layer to reveal what the PC's can see - this wold eliminate any need to pre-prep areas to mask off...




That's exactly what I do with my setup. Though I usually grab a sample of the "negative space" texture and tile it for the mask (or fog of war) layer instead of just using a solid black color. Here's  a screenshot of a projected map:







The red secret door and trap symbols are on separate layers that I reveal when the players discover them.

I use a combination of the erase tool (with lots of shift-clicking to erase in straight lines) and the marquee tool to remove portions of the mask layer.


----------



## punkorange

What you could do is have a layer to hide what the group can't see, and do a difference cloud on it.


----------



## MarauderX

I asked Lionheart Communications (the PR firm that released the article): 



> Hello –
> I was hoping to get some more detailed specifications on the PocketProjector.  Of most concern are the light level outputs on this small unit.
> Thanks –




I got a fast reply:



			
				lionheartpr said:
			
		

> Thank you for your interest in the PocketProjector.  As this product is still in development, specs have not yet been finalized.  Please check the Mitsubishi website www.mitsubishi-presentations.com for more information as we get closer to our ship date in July.




Looks like July.  Until then I will have to use the screen that came on my laptop.


----------



## frankthedm

Ed Cha said:
			
		

> No offense to your players, but I can never understand that, especially those people who spend every week playing. If you spend that much time playing, why not invest in your game some more. At least buy the damn book!
> 
> I have a theory that the less people play, the more books they buy. Maybe it's because you're too busy playing to read...




Not everyone has the 20-30 to spend on a book. That is lot of money to some folks. Some people don't have the spare cash or have it earmarked for other things.


----------



## MoogleEmpMog

Boredflak said:
			
		

> - Really easy zooming so you can see the whole layout.
> - Scrolling via the "hand tool" - much faster and more accurate than using scroll bars.
> - Great spell area effects including transparency, outlining, snap-to-grid, snap-to-center.
> - Auto grid creation when needed.
> - Full screen mode on the projector with tool palettes and menus on the computer display.
> - Text tool for player notes.
> - Layers and layer sets for organizing map elements (you can even have multiple maps in one document).
> 
> Of course there are some drawbacks:
> 
> Price - At $650 it's almost as expensive as the projector. Photoshop Elements is "only" $100, but I'm not familiar with it's features. Price alone will rule this out for many folks.
> 
> Complexity - Photoshop is a professional image editing program. It's complicated. Don't think you're going to learn it easily.
> 
> Difficulty - It takes some practice to become proficient in using all of the tools and brushes. I've become very adroit and fast at editing maps in-game, but the first few game sessions were a bit tedious.




Jasc Software's Paint Shop Pro can accomplish any of the tasks you outlined, provided it's version 7 or later.

It's much simpler and easier to use than Photoshop, and it retails for, IIRC, $50 US.  If not, it's less than $100.


----------



## 3d6+15

*BenQ PB6200*

Well, I just ordered a BenQ PB6200.

Now while I wait for it to arrive I get to rearrange my game room, tweak lighting (got a lamp in the way of the projector to take down.) figure out how on earth I'm going to securely attach it to the joist overhead (while leaving it easily removable) and (the fun bit) upgrade my "server box" with spare parts I've had lying around for awhile to use as the map machine. 

I'm going crazy with excitement!

Oh, and it seems that Dell special has ended on the MP2200.  At least the link I gave earlier doesn't show the $719 price anymore.  (I had practically decided on it, but when I saw it was now $899 I decided that the extra $250 wasn't such a stretch.  (I just didn't want to go that extra bit for the Dell 2300MP.)

Anyway.  I'll be sure to follow-up here with my experiences and possibly game-room photos!


----------



## Steel_Wind

The BenQ PB6200  is a nice unit.  At 1700 ANSI, its a little bit brighter than the one we use (ours is 1600 ANSI) and yours is 1024 x 768 native mode. Very nice rig. HDTV compatible too   

Where did you order it from and for how much?

Looking forward to your pics and experiences...


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Many projectors of these types are designed to be mounted (though not projecting downwards!), and have mounting kits available.  Even if they don't, most have screw holes in the bottom that should help you come up with a mounting solution that isn't too difficult.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Try something like we used. A wire cradle works well - and it's CHEAP.


----------



## 3d6+15

I ordered it from Tiger Direct.

They have a Refurbished PB6200  for $999 with just a 1 year warrenty from BenQ and they have a New PB6200 for $1149 with a $50 mail-in rebate.  After some reasonable searching that seemed like the best prices I could find.  Normally I would have gone with NewEgg.Com  (who has it for $1199 with a $50 mail-in rebate) as I just prefer them for buying practically anything they sell, but Tiger Direct actually has a retail center not too far from me.  I figure if I have any complaints I can probably bring it in there and have someone to yell at.    

I thought about one of the mounts for it, but I wasn't sure if they would hold it vertically very well.  I'll have to look at some.

Your wire cradle looks neat and cheap too.  Hopefully I can find something similar that makes me confident.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Not a bad price either way.  Did you go refurb or new?

Looking forward to everyone's pics!


----------



## 3d6+15

Hee.  I'm trying to avoid that answer.

I chose the refurb and regretted it almost as soon as it shipped.


----------



## specks

> Not everyone has the 20-30 to spend on a book. That is lot of money to some folks. Some people don't have the spare cash or have it earmarked for other things.




I understand that, as do the the people on these boards i'm sure. Therefore I suggest two alternatives:

1) Ask to borrow a Players Handbook. If you have any questions then call your gaming group or sign on here so we can answer your questions about problems designing your character.

2) They can always download PARTS (not all) of the SRD if they wish  here or here.

They don't have even print it out. They can always take a look at it online and work from there.

My $.02


----------



## Dax Doomslayer

Hi Steelwind,
This set up is truly amazing and has me really wanting to potentially try this.  However, I noticed that you were thinking of doing a "guide" to this.  When will that be out?  Will it include all the necessary "hardware" (assorted options; things to look consider; mounting etc) along with software required and potentially ballpark prices?  I showed this thread to my group and they were drooling over it!  Please let me know when this guide will be done!!  Thanks.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Yeah, I've been busy and we have a milestone date to meet this week at DLA so I've not been able to pounce on this yet.

Another week or two.

And yes, it will be an explanation of the technology, how it works, what the specs mean, how to measure and calculate your throw distance possible in your present gaming room setup and links to reviews, sites and distance calculators so you know how big your image will be with a given projector model.

A lot of that has already been touched on in this thread so far and a few have taken the plunge already.  I can't disagree with the projector choices made that I've seen mentioned here so far and I'm really looking forward to pics and comments from those who will soon try this out in their own games.

I honestly think we are on to something here. This tech transcends genres and systems and can be used in every game session. You don't have to know much about it to look at a pic of a projector image on the tabletop and know "Hey! That's cool."


----------



## Stone Angel

Holy Moly I am not one to envy but I got a say I am feeling a little covetous right at the moment. Superb setup man just capitol.


The Seraph of Earth and Stone


----------



## johnsemlak

specks said:
			
		

> I understand that, as do the the people on these boards i'm sure. Therefore I suggest two alternatives:
> 
> 1) Ask to borrow a Players Handbook. If you have any questions then call your gaming group or sign on here so we can answer your questions about problems designing your character.
> 
> 2) They can always download PARTS (not all) of the SRD if they wish  here or here.
> 
> They don't have even print it out. They can always take a look at it online and work from there.
> 
> My $.02




In my current group several players don't have PHB's, but there are people using both the options you listed above.

However, I would point out that many gamers (perhaps most) don't know that the SRD exists, and many don't what to read it off a computer or print out reams of paper.  Many people don't use the internet regularly, and don't use their computer for gaming.

Also, I do think it's perfectly possible to have fun gaming even if not all players have the PHB.


----------



## Sieobahn

I use the Klooge Werks software in my game. I have my laptop in front of me, and another PC initially hooked up to a LCD screen on the table, and now a projector.

With that program I can scan the maps in, and then uncover areas as the PC's explore which is displayed automatically on the players screen. That view can be shifted around or zoomed in an out.

The next step is to setup the projecter over the top of the table like the setup that started this thread. Currently when a battle starts we switch back to a whiteboard and minatures.


----------



## punkorange

Our group used the projector last night, and I used photoshop for the mapping which I really liked. The group enjoyed using the projector, one of them said he hated to admit it but he really liked it. We didn't get to use miniatures with it because if we mounted it the distance from projector to table isn't enough to have a good sized image, so we just threw the map on the wall and used little dot's in photoshop for positions.  I can only imagine how much better it would have been if we got to use the minis.  We don't normally game with a computer, and I frankly loved it.  I could look rules up quicker on d20srd.org than in the book more often than not as well.

We are going to try and find a way to mount the projector next week, and hopefully get to use minis.


----------



## dravot

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> In my current group several players don't have PHB's, but there are people using both the options you listed above.
> 
> However, I would point out that many gamers (perhaps most) don't know that the SRD exists, and many don't what to read it off a computer or print out reams of paper.  Many people don't use the internet regularly, and don't use their computer for gaming.



I understand the individual words, but the sentence makes no sense to me.  How can this be?


----------



## livewirerc

Wow, hats off to all of you with a projector setup. Very impressive, my wife may hate you guys here in the near future.


----------



## jodyjohnson

www.projectorcentral.com
Use Calculator Pro

Check to make sure your projector can focus at short range (ours is about 4' max, or 5' with a mirror).  With a mirror we also are looking for a ceiling mount (vertical flip) and rear projection (horizontal flip).

It will also give image size at your target distance.  Our target for selecting a projectors is 30"x40" at 5' (50" diagonal).  This gives enough room for the party to see up to 12" (60') in all directions (darkvision range, lowlight w/30' light source).


----------



## 3d6+15

*First impression*

Sorry for the play-by-play here but I'm excited, and it's on topic.

The projector arrived today around 12:30.  I left work to go move it inside as soon as UPS.COM showed delivered (It was rainy today.)  

At work the rest of the day I was buzzing, cranking out vast quantities of good work due to bundles of little kid with a new toy energy.

Got home, cracked it out, ran the S-video cable from my Geforce 3 TI200 (if you just cringed, congratulations!) aimed it at the wall about the same throw distance I'll be getting from in my ceiling and....

(Before you read on, this ends well.  Don't make any judgement about the projector until you get to the end.)

WHAM.  Disappointment.  What a blurry picture.  I moved it out quite a bit (6-8 feet) and no focusing would bring it into clarity.  Played with settings for awhile, etc.  I began the internal debate.  "Is this good enough, do I accept paying $1000 for junk." etc, etc.

Suddenly it dawned on me.  The BenQ logo was crystal clear.  The menu was crystal clear.  The problem was my video source!  Woohoo!  I hooked up the 15-pin video cable and hooted for joy!  

What was I thinking?  Eh?  (I know what I was thinking, I was hoping to use the monitor as well as the projector, but it's a very small sacrifice for me.  We DM with laptops and I've got lots of network connections and a WAP so we can use remoting software in lieu of the mouse and keyboard at "MapServ")

I'm bursting at the seams with excitement for my game on Saturday! 

Anyway thought I'd share.  

Toodles!  Off to Home Depot to find an extension cord and some wire shelving, and then to see if anybody carries 25' 15pin video cables.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Please check your laptop keyboard.  There is usally a function to enable the monitor on the laptop to be on at the same time as the external monitor.

There is often a keyboard shortcut combo to turn laptop on, external monitor on - both on.

*Important:* this feature is designed NOT to work on a lot of laptops if the laptop is powered up with the external VGA cable already plugged in.  On my T30 Thinkpad,  I need to power it up - THEN connect the external VGA cable, then hit the keyboard shortcut keys to get both laptop monitor and the projector working at the same time.

With a SVHS cable  - this does not apply and it always automatically goes on.  

Your chipset probably works the same way.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Ohhhhh.

Re-reads. *GeF3 Ti200* You are using a desktop for this?

Ok.  You can get a VGA Y splitter.  Not ideal. What you really want is a new card with a Digital Video out and a DVI top VGA converter so you can run two monitors, but....whatever 

(If you are looking for a new card, a GeF 6600 GT AGP will fix you right up.)


----------



## Dareoon Dalandrove

A couple of things:
First the link to TableTop mapper is dead.  All I get is: 

‹íT]o›0}Gê¸óË¤©à4k¤m¤n¥UÒT,O{‰ 8à lÏ¾$Í¿Ÿ ¤M§iÚØÛýð¹ç\ˆìÚô,8 â†³ÊYAü. ¡ÑwPðZÈ0Lƒ˜ÚÒiL¥šÌ  h™¬{Vó„<±ƒ$õE‚3Ð[n$ë8$@-G¥;¦57äjxP2ô¹ùålî"”‚ëøÒðï]Àš2! ¢þBé~?]G¢ŽJÕE…¡º/ZQŠŠUüÔÞh¥{½y²‘nôGxÐ®,òg¤o6xáH—•Ÿ.puøÎ!ÿÙ‹]B¾)‰\b¸vÕ”£7•õ_AÙ0c9&{!+µ·áÅ|1'Žð±–ç(!wÙC–_¯WùI‰¥(²j‹pk\ìÑ±‹hö;ôÑ¨ú¾:Á½¼Ž²J 2Ñ*ûÎ¥$ lyºžå ILÇ°ËÓéœ¹5®›òìûý,!+·ùõ2ûºÊo²<!3'¦qÛ%äÓÂ÷x…—ªuñ‹ËÏçÆÔ19m0ÌÔŽ)Ò1!'•¨xÁLä¸ü#x|zn,o·Rò½`àUm+dÖ£šæ£ÇGWªÑ½BU‡ÿÅ¿}a7Â‚öWêÖ´0²yEpP½Âß7P)nå{Ûk 6¼‹bª‡£óºLÜ{óD”7z ‡êÿ`¿f•ËÈ

Secondly what's the digits on NWN toolset?


----------



## Steel_Wind

I just googled "Tabletop Mapper".

First hit was this one: http://www.tabletopmapper.hpg.ig.com.br/

It works for me.

NWN digits? Huh? Happy to elaborate - if you could please make your question a little more clear? Digits - cost?

30ish for the Platinum version of the game. Depends on the store.


----------



## Dareoon Dalandrove

How's this puppy?  

EPSON PowerLite S1+ Multimedia Projector $799


----------



## Lasher Dragon

I'm looking at getting this projector: here 

Now, I want a high-def projector, it will be used for watching movies/tv, playing xbox, AND hopefully to game with once a month. The gaming table only has a bit more than 5' from surface to ceiling, so I am not sure if this projector is gonna put a decent-sized image on there.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Dareoon Dalandrove said:
			
		

> How's this puppy?
> 
> EPSON PowerLite S1+ Multimedia Projector $799




Well, the S1+ is a low end projector. So there is not point pretending it's the coolest rig you coud ever get - it isn't.

But that does not mean that it isn't *cool enough*. It will do the job.

At 1400 ANSI (which is a little optomistic for this unit, it's more like 1100-1200, really), it's bright enough to get the job done.  Not as bright as  you would like if you had your druthers, but it is serviceable in normal ambient lighting - and that's the test.

The picture is 800x600, so it's not mega crisp and clean - but hey - 800x600 is all *we* have right now and we love ours - so it's not that it's not good enough.  It is.

Diagonal image, depending on zoom, is about 30" to 42" in the 5'6"
zone, about average for a DLP.  It's comparable to most.  

Physically the projector is a little bigger than others in its class and its depth will eat up a few more inches of projector space when its tilted on its side. No biggie, just something to remember when you are working out how much room you have and where it will sit.

Projector range stats for it are here:  http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_S1+-projection-calculator-pro.htm

If there is a downside on this projector, the contrast *is* a little low.  So dark images will not be all that clear as they might be on a more expensive unit.  But that's not a disaster by any means.  For most gaming purposes - you will not notice.  

When viewing a dark movie like say, Underworld,...you will notice it a bit.

The nice thing is though - this unit will get the job done and the price is  extremely competitive.  I've used the S1 (though not the S1+ but the difference i minimal) at a presentation (not for gaming) and it works fairly well.  It's not STELLAR for movies, but if this is your first projector - you'll be sitting back on the couch going "wow" when you use it for that purpose for the first time.  

And being able to go "wow" counts large from where I sit.

I assume you've looked at this one as it is one of the lowest prices in its class and you are wondering whether its good enough.

Subject to what I've said above - yes - I would think it is "good enough" for the intended purpose.


----------



## jodyjohnson

Dareoon Dalandrove said:
			
		

> How's this puppy?
> 
> EPSON PowerLite S1+ Multimedia Projector $799




Image is kind of small at 5' throw but it will be bright.  22"x29" max.

I've been aiming for 30"x40" max at 5' throw, you can always zoom smaller.

Personal preference:  brighter and small or larger and not as bright.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> I'm looking at getting this projector: here
> 
> Now, I want a high-def projector, it will be used for watching movies/tv, playing xbox, AND hopefully to game with once a month. The gaming table only has a bit more than 5' from surface to ceiling, so I am not sure if this projector is gonna put a decent-sized image on there.




Not sure either, as there is no listing for this unit on Projector Central yet.  That in itself strikes me as very odd.

That said, all the stats seem to be VERY nice and appear to dovetail with the stats on the Optoma739.  That's a very nice projector if the stats are to be believed - though I doubt the lamp is really good enough for 5000 hours. My reaction to that is - maybe in ecnono mode you can get to 3000. But 5000? Nah. I wouldn't be counting on that as a reason to buy it.

Everyone selling it seems to refer to Tiger Direct at the same price.

It's possible that this is a Optoma 739 which has been refurbed or otherwise packaged off to Tiger Direct from Optoma.

FWIW, the 739 at 5'3" is in the 33"-39" diagonal range. You'd do better getting a new lower table to use it with.  6" inches more of throw space would help a lot.

All the stats I can see on it appear to be very positive.  But I'm suspicious of a unit without a single review on Projector Central. I'd call Optoma first and get the low down on this rig and see if its the 739 under a different model number before I bought it.  There is no entry  on Optoma's website for it either.  That also is not a showstopper - but call em and find out more first.


----------



## Steel_Wind

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> Image is kind of small at 5' throw but it will be bright.  22"x29" max.
> 
> I've been aiming for 30"x40" max at 5' throw, you can always zoom smaller.
> 
> Personal preference:  brighter and small or larger and not as bright.




Very few projectors are going to get you that large an image at that distance. A few of the Sony's will. Not much else.


----------



## jodyjohnson

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Very few projectors are going to get you that large an image at that distance. A few of the Sony's will. Not much else.




I only need 1 and it should be here Monday.  Hitachi CP-S225WAT.

Most of the new projectors won't.  Usually they are listed as wide angle.


----------



## Steel_Wind

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> I only need 1 and it should be here Monday.  Hitachi CP-S225WAT.
> 
> Most of the new projectors won't.  Usually they are listed as wide angle.




The size of the image is very good at low range, but the listed contrast is the worst I've seen on any new projector.  I hope it works out for you though.

Post pics please!


----------



## BeerSkunk

I've had a desire for a setup like this for a couple of years but only recently have the prices of projectors come down enough to make it feasible.  This week I purchased an Optoma 739 projector which will be primarily used for business purposes.  On the weekends, however, I'll be utilizing it at game sessions.

One of the factors that I have to deal with is the need for an easily portable solution.  My gaming group rotates who's house we play at every session.  On top of that, I have a small car (Mazda Miata) so the stand for the projector also needs to be collapsable yet still retain its sturdiness.  At just over 5 lbs, the projector I'm using isn't heavy, but it does require stiff support to hold it in place.  I have an idea for an adjustable height stand with a telescoping horizontal arm to attach the projector to.  I've spent a few days sketching out some plans and searching around Home Depot and Lowes for materials.  If I get a working solution put together I'll post pictures of it along with the details on how it was crafted.  Wish me luck! 

In response to people who haven't used the NWN toolset and disbelieve that maps can be crafted in a matter of minutes I'd like to say that Steel Wind isn't exagerating about the time it takes to make a map.  NWN doesn't have a large learning curve.  It's very simple and intuitive to use.  Just based on my experience throwing together maps in NWN versus the time it takes to draw out a map on the Battlemat, I can confidently say that using NWN will be quicker, more detailed, and far more visually appealing.  My group has always used miniatures for combat, so this will be a win, win, win for us.

In the long run, say over the next 5 to 10 years, this setup will give way to roll-up flexible displays similar to the Nanochromic displays offered by Ntera.  I'm very excited about the future of table-top gaming.  It's only going to get better...especially when I get my Holo-mat.  =)


----------



## saethone

man those are some nice setups haha, if only i had a spare $1000.....


----------



## Steel_Wind

BeerSkunk said:
			
		

> NWN doesn't have a large learning curve.  It's very simple and intuitive to use.




Well, to be fair and so as not to leave speechless some people who may be a little confused over what we mean:

1 - NWN map building is intuitive and, as advertised, takes a few minutes;

2 - NWN _mod_ building is complicated and frequently esoteric.

You don't need to know how to build a mod; you only need to know how to build a map, a very different concept.



> Just based on my experience throwing together maps in NWN versus the time it takes to draw out a map on the Battlemat, I can confidently say that using NWN will be quicker, more detailed, and far more visually appealing.  My group has always used miniatures for combat, so this will be a win, win, win for us.




It is indeed.  And your Optoma 739 is a very nice projector. Please try and post some pics from your weekend sessions.

I've received a tremendous amount of mail over this thread. People have written me who publish newsletters looking for more info.  A dozen people contacted me directly for advice on projectors and it appears another 6 or so of those who responded here have bought projectors in the past 2 weeks.

I truly think we are on to something here and that as projector prices contunue to fall while improving in quality, and people get an opportunity via the Internet, in print, or at Gencon and Origins to see this tech first hand and how it adds to the game, there are going to be a lot of these setups in a lot of gaming circles.

It's just too cool not to want one.


----------



## Draxx

Fantastic pics and setup!  I am truly jealous.  Has anyone considered a tutorial or idea of how to use just a TV or extra computer montitor instead of the projector setup.  This is still out of a lot of gamers pocket books (mine included).  I have an extra monitor and would love to be able to utilize some of these ideas, namely the NWN idea with a grid for reference and character icons if there was a way to show where players and monsters were etc.  And then go to my battle mat as needed to resolve combat.  This would take less mat drawing time to layout a room etc. and leave more for gaming.

Just a thought,

Draxx


----------



## punkorange

Hey, check this out if your looking for a cheap projector.   You might wanna do some research on the throw distance, etc, but its worth looking at.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=1164861&sku=S339-1200&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=WEM850C


----------



## KaosDevice

What about an under mounted projector that would project up onto a screen like thing, am I making any sense? I can picture it in my head, sort of a rear projection affair. Anyone messed around with anything like that?


----------



## Steel_Wind

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> What about an under mounted projector that would project up onto a screen like thing, am I making any sense? I can picture it in my head, sort of a rear projection affair. Anyone messed around with anything like that?




Yes, but there are problems with this approach.

Please see page 2 of this thread.


----------



## BeerSkunk

If you're really looking to shell out some money, this would make for an incredible projector screen to lay out on a table.  It's a touch screen white board...

Teamboard

They come in much larger sizes than the one pictured here, and they're not cheap.  They are, however, pretty freaking cool.


----------



## Steel_Wind

punkorange said:
			
		

> Hey, check this out if your looking for a cheap projector. You might wanna do some research on the throw distance, etc, but its worth looking at.
> 
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...SRCCODE=WEM850C




The picture size is good, but the unit is dim at advertised 1200 (more like 1000-1100 in actual use. Mftrs all cheat on advertised brightness)  

But that's not the real problem. The contrast is rated at 350:1. Again, they tend to overestimate these specs. And even without overestimating, 350:1 is BAD with a Capital "B". Your picture is going to lack definition and looked washed out as all hell.

There is a reason this is $500. I would not recommend this. I'd go ebay and go used before this one. You'll likely end up doing better.


----------



## Steel_Wind

BeerSkunk said:
			
		

> If you're really looking to shell out some money, this would make for an incredible projector screen to lay out on a table.  It's a touch screen white board...
> 
> Teamboard
> 
> They come in much larger sizes than the one pictured here, and they're not cheap.  They are, however, pretty freaking cool.




Aye. Very cool indeed.  Would be cooler still if you didn't need a projector to get the underlying image though.

Still... Don't like the price and capabilites just yet?  Wait a bit.  We'll get there 

Thanks for posting this. I was not familiar with this product line.


----------



## Boredflak

BeerSkunk said:
			
		

> If you're really looking to shell out some money, this would make for an incredible projector screen to lay out on a table.  It's a touch screen white board...
> 
> Teamboard
> 
> They come in much larger sizes than the one pictured here, and they're not cheap.  They are, however, pretty freaking cool.




OK. As long as we're dreaming, and throwing the budget out the window, let's install this SMART board in the center of the game table.

Pass me a another tankard of Dom Perignon, and get me some more beluga caviar to dip my Fritos in!


----------



## megamania

I've tried this at a con before using an overhead projector but this is sooooo much cooler and better even.  Kudos-  you have the envy of most all here at EN World.


----------



## Dax Doomslayer

Yup - very cool just waiting for the guide . . .


----------



## 3d6+15

*Happy happy happy!*

Pics!  I had my game Saturday and boy did we love the projector.  We turned the lights down quite a bit for the photos, and the resolution on our camera leaves something to be desired, but we were all very happy with the results during game play (where we had the lights bright enough to see by but dim enough for a nice bright image on the table).

Unfortunately you can't see my minis real good in any of these shots, but they stand out pretty good when we are at the table.

A campsite at night being attacked by wights.  I whipped this campsite up in NWN Toolset in two minutes.  Forest Tileset, add road, add campfire, add wagon, and add oxen.  Done.

A hexified overland map map for our adventure that I got from some website over the years (i'd give credit where it is due, but I can't remember where it came from).  You can't see it but I'm using Paintshop Pro from Jasc, and I have a layer which just has a Red X in it that I can move around to mark overland progress.  (They are in Hommlet when I had this up so the red X is on a red dot.

Inside a ruined and empty abandoned Inn being attacked by a ghost.  Another map in the NWN mapper.  Just an empty featureless inn.  Took about 30 seconds.  (no placeables since it's empty but for rubble.  I suppose I could have hunted around for some rubble.)

And the projector itself in its happy home.

For good measure, I give you, Chaise de Cthulhu.

Enjoy!


----------



## Eltern

Just want to second Klooge. 

http://www.kloogeinc.com/werks/

Pretty much the perfect program for presenting this sort of thing. I've used it, and I've done stuff with paintshop and photoshop and klooge works the best for a gaming session, in terms of ease of use.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Most excellent  pics  Waiting to see some more from others.

The removal of the drop ceiling tile to get some more room was a nice idea too.

As you've noticed by now, using NWN interiors screws up your sense of scale if they have furniture in them.  Your room is far either too big or your furniture is.

At some point, I am going to grab a tileset off of  NWVault that has the furniture stripped from all interiors rooms and figure out the scale I need to use to make all the furniture placeables at the correct scale for use with NWN, the create a set of placeables for projector use using the scaling wizard in NWmax.

The problem with the interiors, as you have noticed, is that they are NWN cavernous in size in relation to the furniture.  This is a pathfinding issue in NWN itself that requires all terrain to be so oversized and massive.  You can use zooming to adjust for this for use with a projector, but then the furniture is off in size.

Glad you loved the projector though!  If your image is a touch dark, switching to a pre-gridded piece of white foam core or bristle board should work nicely (as would a 1" square presentation pad).


----------



## 3d6+15

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> As you've noticed by now, using NWN interiors screws up your sense of scale if they have furniture in them.  Your room is far either too big or your furniture is.
> 
> At some point, I am going to grab a tileset off of  NWVault that has the furniture stripped from all interiors rooms and figure out the scale I need to use to make all the furniture placeables at the correct scale for use with NWN, the create a set of placeables for projector use using the scaling wizard in NWmax.
> 
> The problem with the interiors, as you have noticed, is that they are NWN cavernous in size in relation to the furniture.  This is a pathfinding issue in NWN itself that requires all terrain to be so oversized and massive.  You can use zooming to adjust for this for use with a projector, but then the furniture is off in size.




Oh yes, I have noticed.  I'd be very interested in the details of this should you get around to doing it.

I know very little about the more advanced custom work for NWN, but I was playing around and editing some ascii mdl files (without really knowing what I am doing) and making models that give off a radius of light in the mapper.  Depending on the zoom factor this could be really cool as light sources (just move it to stay centered on the PC with the torch...).  I also goofed around with the model "Firestorm" to try to get a "fireball template" tweaking some values in the emitters and stuff.  Fun stuff, too bad I'm as amatuer as they come.


----------



## Nyrath

*Side view*

This is the most incredible game innovation I have ever seen. I want one.

Now I am speculating here. What I am suggesting may not be practical, but I thought I throw it out in the hopes that it would spark some ideas.

Some people cannot mount the projector on the ceiling for a variety of reasons. I have already read a post where somebody is projecting the map on the wall and is using red dots to indicate character positions.

In office supply stores, I have seen large whiteboards that are also magnetic. Do you see where I'm going here?

If you have strong magnets or lightweight plastic miniatures, it might be possible to afix magnets to the bases so the miniatures will stick to the whiteboard. Failing that, a less elegant solution is printable magnetic sheeting. This is available as some art and craft stores. You feed it into an ink jet printer, and print it with images of your characters and various monsters. Cut them out and stick on the whiteboard.

Again, this is just brainstorming.


----------



## thalmin

I picked up a couple of magnetic white-boards at CostCo, I think they are 24"X36". They even have a grid of sorts on them. They have dots every inch.


----------



## saethone

you don't need to mount the projector on a ceiling, think of a lightstand type deal, where when you're gaming you move the stand to the table and hang the projector from it (through affixation..don't just tie it on!)


----------



## Steel_Wind

On the wall vs tabletop method, I think it's important to mount it so it's projecting on a central table around which all the players are gathered.

The reason is partly physical, but I think the effect it has is mostly mental.

With a top down projection on a central table around which everybody gathers, the technology unites the players together and focuses their attention on something between them all that each is participating in.  Each player can reach and manipulate their miniature as required as they always have.  It's democratic and immediate, in that sense.

The technology keeps the game focused at the table - and not looking somewhere else.  The players look at one across the table as they always have.  There is a GAME going on here.

I'm not a fan of the wall mounted projection for these reasons.  It disconnects the player from the group and focuses his attention outside of the circle.  More importantly, it disconnects him from a miniature he can easily see, move and manipulate.  The technology starts to divide the player from the game as a participant.

This is a subtle shift from the technology which, when used top-down at a central table is inherently participatory and engaging, into something which becomes remote and less immediate.  The player switches into "entertain me" mode.

Most technologies we've played with or thought about trying as part of our games have ended up not conforming  to our play style and tend to detract from the overall experience rather than add to it.  The projector has been a real exception to this, and it's one of the reasons we are so happy with it.

Both in terms of the usefulness of the technology and participatory aspect of it when used on a central table, I find that it enhances the experience at every level, _without fundamentally changing the way we game._

That dynamic is only half there when you are projecting on a wall.  The disconnect and feeling of removal of control from the player and lack of focus on the group may seem kind of airy and nebulous, but I think it's an important factor to consider.


----------



## Nyrath

Oh, I agree that tabletop projection is the desired method, for all your reasons and more.

It's just that sometimes we have to settle for less. So the game master who is borrowing the projector from work may not be able to mount it on the ceiling.

But in a perfect world, ceiling mount is the way to go.


----------



## rom90125

One question to Steel or anyone else using the NWN Toolset...how do you handle 'hiding' rooms with shut doors, or areas that show in the projected image because you are using the NWN toolset to display the layout?

I like that I can stay in the 'toolset-view' and scroll the image, but, how do you 'hide' areas the PC's haven't investigated yet?   My group will be starting CoTSQ this weekend, and I'm creating the Dordrien Crypts using the NWN toolset.  Because many of the caverns aren't laid out in a linear fashion, I'm concerned that the players will see a portion of the cavern with a hidden entrance and then meta-think their way into finding the secret door.  Of course, I could always tell the players to disregard what lies on the edges of the display, but, that kinda takes away from the 'shock and awe' effect.

Thanks.


----------



## Americano

*rom90125:* My group is starting CotSQ in the near future also. I would love to get copies of the NWN maps you're working on. Email me - toddwdraper@gmail.com.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

I just scoured this thread and there's no direct link to the NWN toolset.

SteelWind, is there some reason you won't link to it directly?


----------



## rom90125

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I just scoured this thread and there's no direct link to the NWN toolset.
> 
> SteelWind, is there some reason you won't link to it directly?




the only way I know to obtain the toolset is to purchase NWN.  I think you can purchase the game from an online vendor for around $25 USD.


----------



## Boredflak

Hey Steel_Wind,

I saw somebody post a warning on the Dundjinni boards about poor heat dissipation when a projector is pointed directly up or down.

I haven't had any noticeable overheating problems with mine. What do you think?


----------



## Lasher Dragon

Any comments on this projector?  It seems pretty tight... wide-angle lens, high-Def (will double for movies/xbox), pretty bright, supposedly made specifically to be portable.


----------



## 3d6+15

rom90125 said:
			
		

> One question to Steel or anyone else using the NWN Toolset...how do you handle 'hiding' rooms with shut doors, or areas that show in the projected image because you are using the NWN toolset to display the layout?
> 
> I like that I can stay in the 'toolset-view' and scroll the image, but, how do you 'hide' areas the PC's haven't investigated yet?   My group will be starting CoTSQ this weekend, and I'm creating the Dordrien Crypts using the NWN toolset.  Because many of the caverns aren't laid out in a linear fashion, I'm concerned that the players will see a portion of the cavern with a hidden entrance and then meta-think their way into finding the secret door.  Of course, I could always tell the players to disregard what lies on the edges of the display, but, that kinda takes away from the 'shock and awe' effect.
> 
> Thanks.




Franky I only use it for "battlemats" so far.  For Dungeon Exploration I  plan to use a scanned image with a masking layer in PaintShop Pro.   I'll check out other options as I go.  I didn't get to use PSP for dungeon exploration last weekend though because there wasn't any.  I had some planned but my PC's were delayed by an extra trip back to town to get some Restorations.  Silly Wights!

The best I could think of using NWN Toolset would be to set the areas ambient light level to something really dark and then drop down light sources as necessary to reveal the areas.  I can't think of anything in the default Toolset that gives off a light radius in the mapper, but I have goofed around with models myself and have a small, barely noticible rock I can use that gives off a radius of light in the Toolset.  (Actually three different sizes currently.)  You could drop as many down as necessary to just illuminate the areas you want.  I believe the light goes through walls and doors however so it wouldn't be perfect (but you could make the radius small enough to not be a big deal.  

It's interesting.


----------



## jodyjohnson

Boredflak said:
			
		

> Hey Steel_Wind,
> 
> I saw somebody post a warning on the Dundjinni boards about poor heat dissipation when a projector is pointed directly up or down.
> 
> I haven't had any noticeable overheating problems with mine. What do you think?





The manual with mine says it's a bad idea.  

But I planned on mounting mine flat on a platform  (the platform is 'permanent' and the projector sits on it) and then use a mirror to bounce it down onto the table.  Originally the idea was for some extra throw distance.

We set it up last night and ended up reversing our set-up (pointing the projector away from table center and then bouncing it back with the mirror).  

We're trying it out Friday.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> Any comments on this projector?  It seems pretty tight... wide-angle lens, high-Def (will double for movies/xbox), pretty bright, supposedly made specifically to be portable.




I think it would be a good to very good choice.

Very good picture size, good resolution, very good brightness and excellent contrast.  Specs look very good to great overall.  Cost seems reasonable for the feature set.

Possible issues: econo mode on bulb is inconsistent; loudness of fan appears to be an issue with some users. The audible noise is rated at 34 db. Seems average to me.

There is a plus and a minus here on this unit.  It is very compact and small. If you plan to move it around for "roving games" this is good. But if you aren't doing that, you are paying a little for the privilege of having a smaller unit.

There is a similar produt made by the same company, the BenQPB6200 which has identical feature sets tech wise, except:

1 - it is a little bigger and heavier by 2 lbs or so (this will eat up  about 1.5" of projector throw dist in contrast to the 2220.)
2-  it has a better econo feature on the bulb

That said, it is otherwise identical in feature set and is cheaper than the BenQ2220 to boot.

I don't think you'd really go wrong with either of these models though.


----------



## Mark

If the unit is up in the rafters, or even just up against the ceiling (more or less), then there is a chance that there could be undue heat build up in and around it anyway.  It probably couldn't hurt to set up an additional fan to help disapate the extra heat.  Even something like one of those small, personal fans would likely work wonders and is a small price to pay to protect the expensive equipment.


----------



## Steel_Wind

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> The manual with mine says it's a bad idea.
> 
> But I planned on mounting mine flat on a platform  (the platform is 'permanent' and the projector sits on it) and then use a mirror to bounce it down onto the table.  Originally the idea was for some extra throw distance.
> 
> We set it up last night and ended up reversing our set-up (pointing the projector away from table center and then bouncing it back with the mirror).
> 
> We're trying it out Friday.




Seeing as most venting on these things is done at the rear or rear/top of the unit, I could see how thermal flow might be interrupted if you were placing it on its back end to point up for rear projection.  It is entirely logical how that would cause heat build up and prevent heat from being dissipated as efficiently as it might be otherwise.

The same argument is more difficult for me to accept when you are talking about pointing it down.  If anything, you might be assisting the unit in dissipating heat more efficiently.  Depends on the projector I guess.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Mark said:
			
		

> If the unit is up in the rafters, or even just up against the ceiling (more or less), then there is a chance that there could be undue heat build up in and around it anyway.  It probably couldn't hurt to set up an additional fan to help disapate the extra heat.  Even something like one of those small, personal fans would likely work wonders and is a small price to pay to protect the expensive equipment.




Yes, that makes sense.

A simple computer case fan would work fine I would think if that was a real concern.


----------



## Steel_Wind

rom90125 said:
			
		

> One question to Steel or anyone else using the NWN Toolset...how do you handle 'hiding' rooms with shut doors, or areas that show in the projected image because you are using the NWN toolset to display the layout?




I got a fix for this I think.  Let me test it out and I'll post it here if it works.


----------



## Lazybones

I've been running NWN campaigns for about 2 1/2 years now and I've been following this thread with great interest. 

RE secret doors: there are door placeables in the toolset palette that you can place wherever and whenever you want. Trapdoors as well. Traps show up as shaded polygons (you can define the area in a few clicks) so that's easy to do as well. In fact, using the Area Transition and Generic Trigger tools, you can easily add colored shapes to your map to represent different objects. If you have the CEP (Community Expansion Pack) installed (this is a community-made custom content upgrade), you literally have thousands of things you can place into your map. Including placeables for areas flooded by water, sewage, etc.

Another solution for secret doors and "fog of war" is just not to build out an area until the players discover it. It literally is so fast to build an area that you can do it in seconds as the players advance. Players head down a hall... bam, extend the corridor, open up the room, place a couple of monsters, and you're ready to whip out the dice. It might take a few tries to get it just the way you want if you're not familiar with NWN... although the DM could experiment before the game if desired. 

Another way to do it would be to simply grab the map and drag it "off screen" into a corner of the display so that only the area that the players are in is revealed.  The downside is that players would have to relocate their minis each time you moved the map. 

The furniture scale thing for indoor areas is an issue, at least for furniture that is actually part of the tiles. The CEP-enhanced palette contains lots of variable-size stuff though.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Regarding what I do to obscure rooms in the NWN toolset, whenever possible I keep the next room scrolled off of the screen so it is not seen.

This is not always practical, however.

My general approach when there will be a lot of interior exploring is to use simply an image(s) of the map and prepare a map using Tabletop Mapper.  For a number of reasons, building interior scaling is screwed up in NWN when using miniatures and so I prefer to use another program for interiors.  But caves do not suffer from this scaling problem in general - so your desire to use it is quite legitimate.

So you want to stick with NWN for interiors. You want to be able do it in the toolset, and you want to keep part of the map hidden from your players so you can reveal the areas only as you need to during play.  What can you do?

Right here is a very quick and dirty file package to help you. The attached file is simply a .rar file with a placeables.2da and 4 placeable models in it. For the most part, you’ll want to use the BlackPlane 10 or 15 model. 

The model is exactly that – an all black model of a flat plane, 10m x  10m in NWN scale, i.e., the same size in height and width as 1 NWN tile. The number of polygons in the model is negligible so it will have zero effect on frame rate, no matter how many you use.  It is difficult to conceive of a simpler 3d model.

The model is a placeable and is parented up from the Z=0 plane at various heights, corresponding to the model name.  There are 4 in there – but you should pretty much be using the 10m or 15m high planes. 

What this means in English is that this is a placeable that goes OVER a tile on your area map and you should centre it more or less exactly on the tile. When you do, all geometry below +15m will be hidden from view when the camera is positioned above this  blocker plane at a 90 degree angle or so (provided you are zoomed up higher than 15m in height, which you almost always will be when in the toolset).  Just think of it as covering over your underlying map with little square pieces of black tape, arranged in a grid.

A lot of work to cover up all your map this way with placeables like this?  Not as bad as you think.  Most people don’t know this, but the NWN Toolset supports standard ctl+c for copy and ctl+v for paste for all geom currently selected in the area window.  It also supports marquee selection with the mouse – left click and drag.  So after you place 4 of these down. Marquee select, copy – move cursor to next blank area – paste.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  Marquee select again as you go when you have an even larger number of placeables on the map if you like to increase the number of blockers you will be plopping down all at once so you can finish your task even faster.  In no time flat, *poof* you are done.

You can put these in a hak if you like – if not unrar this into the NWN override directory and create or edit a placeable in the toolset that uses the BlackPlane 10 or 15 appearance.  If you have any custom placeables, you will need to do some combining of the placeable entries in this placeables.2da to the one you are using.

Anyways, upshot: using this placeable tiled all over your map you should be able to prepare and obscure your map with about 5 mins or less of prep time (probably less).  After that, during play, make sure you have the placeables tab selected in the toolset, then just select one of the black blockers as you need to as the party explores on the map and hit the delete key, revealing the tile and all of what lies below it to your player (ctl+z works for undo).  Not absolutely perfect but it’s pretty good for a kludge.  - Should be fairly intuitive for you to use during play with the toolset as the players explore.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I just scoured this thread and there's no direct link to the NWN toolset.
> 
> SteelWind, is there some reason you won't link to it directly?




Because NWN is commercial software and as I am under contract to BioWare, I am about the last person you would want to ask for a link to the NWN toolset 

The toolset comes with the game.  To many people - the toolset IS the game   

Look for Neverwinter Nights Platinum in your local computer game store.  You should be able to find it for between $19 and $29 USD new - less if it's used.  Yes, you want the Platinum version for the extra tilesets and textures.  If you are a FR DM, the Underdark tileset, in particular, which comes with the Hordes of the Underdark expansion will be appreciated.

Excellent PnP utility - decent game, groovy mapping software, MASSIVE custom content community on http://nwvault.ign.com/index2.shtml  I spent three times that much on Dundjinni Platinum.  Wish I never had.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Most interesting. This thread has now been slashdotted 

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/15/2146215&tid=209

We made the front page actually - not just the Games section.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I spent three times that much on Dundjinni Platinum.  Wish I never had.




I know the feeling. 

I love the Dundjinni Users, and the free art, but Dundjinni itself runs HORRIBLE on my machine.

And my laptop is no slouch, don't get me wrong.

But the problem is compounded by the fact that the more Art you have installed (which, theoretically, should make Dundjinni more useful), the slower and slower DJ begins to crawl.

The fact that Dundjinni doesn't support printing on anything other than 8.5x11 paper (or at least it didn't when I finally sh*tcanned it) was the killer for me.

It's just easier for me to lay it all out in Photoshop.

So-- given that I am pretty good with Photoshop and I have access to all of the Dundjinni User art, where would you realistically place my need for NWN?

Wulf


----------



## rom90125

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> So you want to stick with NWN for interiors. You want to be able do it in the toolset, and you want to keep part of the map hidden from your players so you can reveal the areas only as you need to during play.  What can you do?




Thanks Steel_Wind!  I will apply this technique and post my results here.

This has got to be one the best DnD-software/hardware threads I've read in these forums.  I only wish I had 'discovered' the nwn toolset before spending major $$$ on Dundjinni Platinum.


----------



## BeerSkunk

> Most interesting. This thread has now been slashdotted
> 
> http://games.slashdot.org/article.p...2146215&tid=209
> 
> We made the front page actually - not just the Games section.




Too funny.  Entrepreneurs, start your engines!  

I was able to use the projector and NWN this past weekend with my gaming group.  The response to our first encounter using the projector was amazing.  Everyone loved it.  We especially enjoyed having animated models for summoned creatures.  It looks like this will become a part of our permanent gaming setup. 

The only disappointing news is that I was not able to come up with a solution for how to properly mount the projector to something I can break down and move.  For last week's session, we just placed a hook in the ceiling and suspended the projector from it.  I didn't feel the need to take pictures of a projector hanging precariously from a single hook placed in the ceiling.  It was pretty ugly, but it worked.

Right now I'm considering something similar to this.  It's a portable stand for hanging professional photography backgrounds.  It's a rather bulky solution, but it does exactly what I need it to.  It has adjustable height, adjustable width, it's lightweight, and it breaks down for easy storage and portability.  The cost is a factor, but I should be able to fabricate a similar solution for much cheaper than actually purchasing one.  On the other hand, maybe I'll find a used one on EBay. 

I'll keep posting back with updates as I work up a solution for the 'traveling gamer'.


----------



## Galfridus

This looks /very/ cool, and as someone with a decent amount of disposable income I will definitely be trying it out!

One question: my combats are often fairly large (as in, taking up most of a Megamat). It looks like with throw distance and all, the projected area is smaller than most battlemat surfaces. How often has this been a problem, and what solutions have you used?


----------



## Boredflak

Galfridus said:
			
		

> One question: my combats are often fairly large (as in, taking up most of a Megamat). It looks like with throw distance and all, the projected area is smaller than most battlemat surfaces. How often has this been a problem, and what solutions have you used?




We get about a 40' wide (200 game ft.) projection on the table. Since my projection surface is in the middle of a larger dry-erase surface, I just move any satellite combat participants off the projected area and write a note next to their mini of how many feet they are from the edge of the projected battle map. It's a pretty rare occurrence for us, but we do a lot of dungeon crawls.


----------



## jodyjohnson

Galfridus said:
			
		

> This looks /very/ cool, and as someone with a decent amount of disposable income I will definitely be trying it out!
> 
> One question: my combats are often fairly large (as in, taking up most of a Megamat). It looks like with throw distance and all, the projected area is smaller than most battlemat surfaces. How often has this been a problem, and what solutions have you used?




I finished a Photoshop doc of the Slavers Stockade (A2) as a 100" square doc (used Dundjinni for the keep) and run it at 50% exactly (to avoid scaling artifacts).  The nice thing about some projectors is that you can do an 'on projector zoom' which is cleaner than the Photoshop zoom for getting precise scale on the table (plus it gets rid of interface).  If the map doesn't fit you can adjust the zoom to say 1/2" or 3/4" squares and just be a little more precise with the miniatures.   Or zoom out and use small tokens as markers until you can return to 1"=5' scale.

Our image size is 31"x41" but if I use the lens zoom it can get up to 37"x49" (with loss of brightness and resolution:  goes from 19 pixels/inch to 16 pixels/inch).


----------



## Boredflak

BeerSkunk said:
			
		

> Right now I'm considering something similar to this.  It's a portable stand for hanging professional photography backgrounds.  It's a rather bulky solution, but it does exactly what I need it to.  It has adjustable height, adjustable width, it's lightweight, and it breaks down for easy storage and portability.  The cost is a factor, but I should be able to fabricate a similar solution for much cheaper than actually purchasing one.  On the other hand, maybe I'll find a used one on EBay.




You might also want to check out a light stand with a boom arm, but I'm guessing a background rig with two stands and a crosspiece may be cheaper and more stable. My wife is a photographer, and I used to be (I have a B.S. in photography). I know used equipment should be pretty affordable.

One word of caution, be sure to build in a safety mechanism. Background and light stands have a way of getting knocked over! Weights on the legs of the stands usually do the trick. They can be as simple as sandbags. Of course weights reduce the transportability of the solution.


----------



## rom90125

rom90125 said:
			
		

> Thanks Steel_Wind!  I will apply this technique and post my results here.




I just ran a quick test and these worked great!  The only issue I encountered was when I zoomed in with the toolset, the rendering for the black panes was a bit off.  From a zoomed out perspective, it appeared everything was hidden, but, when I zoomed in, and the panes were were redrawn, there were  gaps between some the panes that allowed the underlying textures to appear.  But this is only a minor glitch in an otherwise plausable solution.  

Thanks again Steel_Wind!


----------



## Nyrath

*I can dream, can't I?*

There was a project called Audiopad. It had diagrams projected onto a tabletop. As the user moved plastic tiles, the computer somehow saw them, and changed the music.
Imagine if the computer could somehow see the miniatures on the table. It would know each characters's weapons and spells. It could then do useful utility work, like figuring ranges, calcuating combat, that sort of thing.


----------



## Darmanicus

I'm a great fan of minis also and believe they enhance a game rather than detract from it.

That set up is absolutely awesome, I want one!


----------



## Steel_Wind

Boredflak said:
			
		

> We get about a 40' wide (200 game ft.) projection on the table. Since my projection surface is in the middle of a larger dry-erase surface, I just move any satellite combat participants off the projected area and write a note next to their mini of how many feet they are from the edge of the projected battle map. It's a pretty rare occurrence for us, but we do a lot of dungeon crawls.




In response to the original question, that sounds about right Jans and it's what we do too.

A larger image would be nice. I would appreciate a crisp and clean 48"+ diagonal view. But in order to do this, you need:

1 - a wide angle lens
2 - an XGA projector running at 1280x1024 _native_ mode
3 - Excellent 2000:1 or better contrast
4 - Extremely bright ANSI lumens output (2200+)
5 - Projector model with enough capability to do all of this in a very limited throw range.

Generally speaking, those specs call for a mid-range projector price, or certainly at the "upper end" of the low range ($1600-2000). Like anything else, technology marches ahead and the capabilities grow. In 12 months such system specs may be _de rigeur_.

One of the posters in this thread indicated he had orderd a projector with a wide angle lens capable of 50"+ in about 5' foot throw and his posts seemed to reflect that maximum image size was of significant importance to him. My concern was that the contrast on the unit was too low for this but it may be that it will turn out okay.  I look forward to his pics showing us what's possible in a limited throw range with his projector.

While a 38"-42" diagonal may seem small, for most purposes this is more than adequate for the vast majority of what you will use the map for at the table.  As well, remember that the map image easily scrolls so as the battle moves - you just move the figures a little.  Your map is bigger than your projected image size - just not all at once   It gets quite intuitive and we have found no problems with such an approach.

And yes, sometimes the bad guys are notionally off the map table entirely and we imagine them "near Mark's knee" or whatever.  Overall, the limitations of the set-up are far exceeded by its qualities-in-use.


----------



## Lasher Dragon

Steel Wind - could you eyeball the projector I linked to earlier - I think it was the last part of the previous page - and tell me what your professional opinion is?


----------



## Steel_Wind

Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> Steel Wind - could you eyeball the projector I linked to earlier - I think it was the last part of the previous page - and tell me what your professional opinion is?





I responded last night to that one already.  It's on page 6 - you just must have missed it.


----------



## Lasher Dragon

Whoops, thank you kindly Steel Wind. Yeah, seeing as how I will probably be taking the projector over to a buddy's house now & then, I may just go with the PB2220. Then again, that econo mode bulb life might make it worth toting around the extra poundage. Guess I'll just hafta roll some percentile hehehe


----------



## Conaill

Has anyone experimented with hanging a mirror from the ceiling, and bouncing the projector off of that? You could leave the projector sitting on the table, or wherever your laptop is positioned. Makes it much easier to set up and tear down. Plus you wouldn't have so much trouble with throw distance, allowing you to pick a projector with better resolution, light output, or contrast.

The only drawback is that you need a reasonabel size mirror on the ceiling. Let's say you want a 3'x4' projection... you would need a 1.4'x2' mirror on the ceiling for that. Should be a lot lighter than the projector itself, but better make sure it's well secured. I'd rather have a 10 lb projector crash down onto the middle of the table, than a 1lb piece of sheet glass...


----------



## paulsometimes

Although a set up like this is more than likely years down the road for me, I was wondering if there would be some way to project the lines you use for miniatures with the picture projected instead of prejecting onto a battlemat or similar?  Thanks.

Paul


----------



## Steel_Wind

Yes. No reason you could not project the grid.

But - in general - you don't want to when you are projecting battlemaps.  The beauty of the projector is that the image zooms /scales digitally.  This is very handy for a number of reasons depending on your image.

At the same time, in terms of battlemap use, 1" = 5'.  That does not change when using standard 3/3.5e miniatures rules.  There is, therefore, a great utility in having the image scale independent of the grid.


----------



## Boredflak

Photoshop has a grid that does not resize with the image. You can also set it up with subdivisions. So, for instance, heavy lines every two inches (10') and lighter ones every inch (5').


----------



## Steel_Wind

rom90125 said:
			
		

> I just ran a quick test and these worked great!  The only issue I encountered was when I zoomed in with the toolset, the rendering for the black panes was a bit off.  From a zoomed out perspective, it appeared everything was hidden, but, when I zoomed in, and the panes were were redrawn, there were  gaps between some the panes that allowed the underlying textures to appear.  But this is only a minor glitch in an otherwise plausable solution.
> 
> Thanks again Steel_Wind!




Yeah. Imprecise alignment of "tile" edges - though in this case the tile is, in fact, a placeable.

These are called "sparklies" in NWN tileset modeling terms.  You have NO IDEA how much debugging we do for sparkles when modeling tiles.

But - good news. We have a fix for this.  You can automate the whole placeable creation thing via script in the exact centre of the tile.

One of the guys on the team says he can whip up the necessary script. Give me a bit and you should be able to make this bug proof *and* automated.


----------



## paulsometimes

I know I already posted on this topic once about the set up, but I just wanted to say that this topic has re-awakened the geek in me.  I haven't gamed in years and have barely scanned a gaming book as well.  Saw this on slashdot, checked it out, and immediately the old gamer in me was back to life.  Just wanted to say thanks.

Paul


----------



## rom90125

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> One of the guys on the team says he can whip up the necessary script. Give me a bit and you should be able to make this bug proof *and* automated.




Man, you guys are great!  Thanks so much.  I will be play-testing this setup (overhead projection utilitizing nwn toolset with the black pane "fog of war" ) this weekend as my party begins CoTSQ.  I'll post the results at that time.


----------



## rom90125

paulsometimes said:
			
		

> I know I already posted on this topic once about the set up, but I just wanted to say that this topic has re-awakened the geek in me.  I haven't gamed in years and have barely scanned a gaming book as well.  Saw this on slashdot, checked it out, and immediately the old gamer in me was back to life.  Just wanted to say thanks.
> 
> Paul




Welcome back Paul!  I too am a relatively recent returnee to the game and I've already spent a fair amount of money trying to bring a more visual aspect to my sessions (Dunjinni and numerous molds from Hirst Arts).  But the design setup detailed in this thread is the first visual aid that is both quick to create and visually engaging.


----------



## Nyrath

*A minor suggestion*

If anybody ever writes up an FAQ about setting up this rig, the first entry should explain in great detail the problems with rear-projection of the map from under the table. 

Looking around the web at various discussion on this topic, this is by far the most common "Hey! I have a better idea" response.


----------



## BoneMan

*Dlp*

My projector is setup to reflect onto a mirror mounted on the ceiling and then back down onto a 4'x8' dry erase whiteboard. This allows me to project a footprint of 62"x46" Area. I also have an ATI dual head video card with the hydravision software that allows me to hotkey the image back to my monitor to make edits the PCs can't see, then quickly toggle it back onto the table. Also the white background actually works better for DLP than silver screens and we can write notes on the dry board (init, HP Dam, Duration Rounds, etc...) I am using a Toshiba Projector that does 1600x1200 ! it is Sweet !


----------



## Boredflak

If you send me some pictures, BoneMan, I'd love to add them to my site. It would be nice to show several differing setups there.


----------



## Steel_Wind

BoneMan said:
			
		

> My projector is setup to reflect onto a mirror mounted on the ceiling and then back down onto a 4'x8' dry erase whiteboard. This allows me to project a footprint of 62"x46" Area. I also have an ATI dual head video card with the hydravision software that allows me to hotkey the image back to my monitor to make edits the PCs can't see, then quickly toggle it back onto the table. Also the white background actually works better for DLP than silver screens and we can write notes on the dry board (init, HP Dam, Duration Rounds, etc...) I am using a Toshiba Projector that does 1600x1200 ! it is Sweet !




I am in the midst of preparing a _Complete Guide to Digital Map Projection _ and I am very interested in showing more pics and providing more ideas on alternative setups.  If you could contact me at steelwind@dladventures.com with some more info on you and your setup - preferably with pics, I would be very appreciative.


----------



## Ridley's Cohort

Conaill said:
			
		

> Has anyone experimented with hanging a mirror from the ceiling, and bouncing the projector off of that? You could leave the projector sitting on the table, or wherever your laptop is positioned. Makes it much easier to set up and tear down. Plus you wouldn't have so much trouble with throw distance, allowing you to pick a projector with better resolution, light output, or contrast.
> 
> The only drawback is that you need a reasonabel size mirror on the ceiling. Let's say you want a 3'x4' projection... you would need a 1.4'x2' mirror on the ceiling for that. Should be a lot lighter than the projector itself, but better make sure it's well secured. I'd rather have a 10 lb projector crash down onto the middle of the table, than a 1lb piece of sheet glass...




I would guess this would be a fine way to go for a permenant setup, but a mirror is adding one more dangerously delicate element to your configuration that needs to be carefully adjusted.  I think the set up and tear down would be worse.


----------



## Conaill

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> I would guess this would be a fine way to go for a permenant setup, but a mirror is adding one more dangerously delicate element to your configuration that needs to be carefully adjusted.  I think the set up and tear down would be worse.



Depends on how you use it. True, it might be worse if you're gaming at a different house every week. (And even then - the mirror will likely weigh a lot less than teh projector, so should re


----------



## Conaill

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> I would guess this would be a fine way to go for a permenant setup, but a mirror is adding one more dangerously delicate element to your configuration that needs to be carefully adjusted.  I think the set up and tear down would be worse.



Depends on how you use it. True, it might be worse if you're gaming at a different house every week. (And even then - the mirror will likely weigh a lot less than the projector, so should require less hardware to set up.)

But it would be a *lot* easier in situations where the mirror can be installed semi-permanently but you don't want to dedicate that $1000+ projector just for your once-a-week gaming session. For example, the DM might permanently install a mirror above the gaming table in his basement, but he could still use the projector as his large-screen TV in the living room outside of gaming hours. Setting up the projector itself is trivial: just plop it on the table and aim at the mirror. Heck, you could even have a mirror installed behind a ceiling tile in several player's houses. Then the DM just brings his projector to the game, aims it up, removes the ceiling tile and you're set. That makes it a *lot* more portable...


----------



## Steel_Wind

*NWN Toolset  - Fog of War util*

Ok,
As promised, here is the promised NWN Fog of War script for the toolset.  You can get it here. It's very tiny - about 11k in size.

Here is what it does.  Perhaps does not look like much, but this is a detailed 16x16 crypt area in the toolset, after fog of war has been implemented: 

http://www.dladventures.com/gallery/public/Crypt_block.jpg
[removed direct link to to login prompt - Kid Charlemagne]

The util package is a combination of erfs, including 2 custom scripts and a custom placeable.

Full instructions for the neophyte are in the Read Me.  Using this, after you get used to the process, it will take you about 5 minutes to completely mask an area in the Toolset. The result is a perfect mask of placeable camera blockers, every time. 

From the *Read Me*:

These quick and dirty utilities are intended to be used to create areas for display in the NWN toolset which are obscured by placeables, hiding all geometry beneath the blocker from view within the toolset. This effect is of no practical use while actually playing NWN – it is instead intended to create a fog of war in the NWN toolset itself when that program is being used as a means of map display to players during a PnP game of D&D.


----------



## Frostmarrow

I've been toying around with the Tabletop Mapper, mentioned previously, for a couple of days - and it's great fun!

Seriously, I'm running out of maps.

I've also rigged a projector up at work to test the idea and it's seems to work smoothly. My next step is to try the same in our gaming den. This might actually work!


----------



## Drommon

*Mirror Setup*

I really like the projector idea myself and I am considering installing one for game use.  I am not mechanically or contruction inclined and was wondering if anyone could give me or point me to some instructions or how-to on making a projector and mirror setup.  I understand that for the projector all I need is a place to put it.  How do I manage mounting a mirror?  What size of mirror do I need?  The reason I need a mirror is that if I hang the projector from a boom the throw distance is very short.

Thanks for any help,

Drommon


----------



## Conaill

Drommon said:
			
		

> I am not mechanically or contruction inclined and was wondering if anyone could give me or point me to some instructions or how-to on making a projector and mirror setup.  I understand that for the projector all I need is a place to put it.  How do I manage mounting a mirror?  What size of mirror do I need?



The mirror should be about 1/2 the size of the area projected onto the table. You can probably find a cheapo mirror of the right size at your local hardware store. Make sure you get one which has some sort of frame or backing, so you're not just dealing with a thin sheet of glass - both for safety, and to avoid distortion due to sagging of the mirror. Even so, some cheap mirros are just attached with a few dabs of glue to their frame or backing - I wouldn't want to rely on those little dabs of glue when you're hanging the mirror upside-down from the ceiling! It wouldn't be a bad idea to loop some rope or bungee cord around the corners of the mirror just in case.

As to how you want to attach the mirror to the ceiling, that would depend on a number of issues, mainly (1) are you going for a (semi-)permanent setup, or one that will be completely torn down after each game, and (2) what material is your ceiling made of?


----------



## Steel_Wind

Drommon said:
			
		

> I really like the projector idea myself and I am considering installing one for game use.  I am not mechanically or contruction inclined and was wondering if anyone could give me or point me to some instructions or how-to on making a projector and mirror setup.  I understand that for the projector all I need is a place to put it.  How do I manage mounting a mirror?  What size of mirror do I need?  The reason I need a mirror is that if I hang the projector from a boom the throw distance is very short.
> 
> Thanks for any help,
> 
> Drommon




I don't know and I have not tried it.  I would be very reticent in recommending technical specs on something I have not tried of confirmed through others actually works.

Have you actually tried a setup like that Conail, or are you just throwing opinions out there?  Given that glass mirrors are relatively heavy  - and DLP projectors are damnably light at about 3lbs - it seemed to me that perhaps you have not tried to build a system like the one you describe.  Forgive me if I am wrong.

Boneman says he's done it - but in a flash he's gone again.  Hopefully he'll post again.


----------



## Conaill

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Have you actually tried a setup like that Conail, or are you just throwing opinions out there?  Given that glass mirrors are relatively heavy  - and DLP projectors are damnably light at about 3lbs - it seemed to me that perhaps you have not tried to build a system like the one you describe.



You're right, I haven't actually made one yet. Doesn't stop the engineer in me from designing one though! 

If you really have a 3 lb projector with that short a throw range to play with, good for you! But I bet it's going to cost you quite a bit more than a 5-10 lb model with a much longer throw range but higher light output, and you should be able to find mirrors lighter than that at least.

As I said, it all depends on how you plan to use it. In a semi-permanent setup, I'd much rather plunk my multi-purpose projector on the table, rather than having to buy a relatively high-end portable model and having to unscrew it from the ceiling each time you want to use it for something else.


----------



## Bobitron

Thanks a bunch for keeping such a close eye on this thread, Steel Wind. I'm looking forward to that Projection Guide. New house coming later this year that has this setup written all over it...


----------



## thalmin

Frippity froopin' low ceiling. Looks like I'm going to need to go the mirror route as well. But since I'm looking at a more or less permanent setup, I plan to fix the projector only 18-24 inches from the mirror, thus reducing the size of mirror needed (I hope.)


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

Conaill said:
			
		

> snip mirror on the ceiling ideas




This just screams disaster waiting to happen. Someone could lose an arm.

Heck, if you have to consider this at all, it means your ceiling is so low that someone could stand up into it. Broken mirror, shards of glass in proximity to head and neck...

I got squeamish just looking at the pictures of that mirror under the table. I couldn't sit under a mirror stuck on the ceiling; I wouldn't reach under a mirror stuck under the ceiling... no way, no how.

Professionally installed, maybe. Bought at the Cheap-O Depot and jerry-rigged up there by my schmuck gamer buddy or, worse yet, ME? 

Nooooooooooooooooooo thank you.

Wulf


----------



## Steel_Wind

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> This just screams disaster waiting to happen. Someone could lose an arm.
> 
> Heck, if you have to consider this at all, it means your ceiling is so low that someone could stand up into it. Broken mirror, shards of glass in proximity to head and neck...
> 
> I got squeamish just looking at the pictures of that mirror under the table. I couldn't sit under a mirror stuck on the ceiling; I wouldn't reach under a mirror stuck under the ceiling... no way, no how.




I have a lot of concerns about mirrors as well and for the same reason as you do as well as a few others.

Whenever you interpose a reflective surface between your projected light image and the image you ultimately look at - you get light loss and your image contrast can flatten and optically distort.  We are not talking about controlled optics - we are talking about spit and kleenex construction here. So...it concerns me.

But, depending on the set-up and projected image, light loss can be more theoretical than real to the eye.

While a heavy glass mirror seems an epic disaster waiting to happen Wulf (and I am in total agreement with you on this point), there *is* more than one way to skin that cat.  Mylar is the most reflective surface known to man.  And it is exceedingly thin, non-breakable (in the bad-luck, catastrophic to health sense) and  - above all - low in weight. [Hydroponic grow-shop as gaming supply store: who knew?]

There may well be a way to incorporate mirrors that make sense, aid a set-up and address a real and pressing need in digital map projection. Show me pics and after battle reports of a great mirror set-up and I am very interested in listening to the whys and hows.

I tend to be skeptical about adding needless complexity to things, however, and over-engineering is iconically geeky.  To add a mirror to genuinely improve matters is fine; to add one just to add one or make a tolerably large image a wee bigger is less convincing to me.

Speak oh mirror users! Shows us the path to true en_light_enment


----------



## rom90125

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Ok,
> As promised, here is the promised NWN Fog of War script for the toolset.  You can get it here. It's very tiny - about 11k in size.




Steel_Wind, thanks for taking the time to put this together.  I regret I have not had any success with implementation.  I followed the ReadMe and when I loaded the *.sav file into the toolset, there were entries for each plane placeable, but, they were not working.  I could still 'see' the underlying layout.  I examined the properties for the placeable, and everything appeared to be in order.  I then attempted to use this placeable directly from within the toolset but it still did not work (it was as if the placeable did not have any appearance, especially not a large black square).  I think there may be an issue between the entries in the 2da file and the names provided by the script ???
The only issue I had with the files I downloaded from your site was that I had to cut/paste the two 'black plane' entries into my *.2da file (when I copied the file you supplied to the 'override' directory, the NWN app blew up).
I am going to continue digging deeper into the 2da file, and the properties of the placeables and see if I can get this 'very cool' feature to work.
If you have any suggestions....

Thanks.


----------



## Steel_Wind

rom90125 said:
			
		

> Steel_Wind, thanks for taking the time to put this together.  I regret I have not had any success with implementation.
> 
> The only issue I had with the files I downloaded from your site was that I had to cut/paste the two 'black plane' entries into my *.2da file
> 
> If you have any suggestions....




I know what the problem is.

You are cutting and pasting in the placeables.2da file.  That means that your appearance is not going to show up correctly as the line the Plane15 erf expects to find the appearance on in the 2da has been changed in *your* 2da.  This is a standard problem with NWN custom content and let me tell you - BioWare wishes they had that one to do all over again in terms of tech design...

Anyways, *The Fix*:

Place the mdl files into your override directory. 
Import the planeblocker .erf as in the read me
DO NOT import the Plane15.erf  - That's what's causing the problem.

You will need to edit your placeables .2da by pasting in the entries out of the most recent placeables.2da in the last rar.  Extract the placeables.2da from the hak you are using. Copy+paste in the lines into your 2da at the bottom of the list.  If you are using a hak (my guess is you are using the CEP) any modified placeables.2da will *not* work in the override directory.  Files in the Override filder do NOT override haks. It will need to go into a hak and that hak should be added to your module via the custom content tab and placed in highest priorty (top of the list) in the hak list - so that it is above the CEP.  This means it will get loaded in priority and not itself be overridden by a higher priority hak.

You can create a hack by using NWhak.exe.  IT is in your \nwn\utils folder.

So - you've got your mod open - you've added your hak with your modified placeable.2da in via module properties. You've saved the mod. You've closed the mod and reopened it, to make sure the correct 2da is loaded in the toolset.

Then, create a placeable for the planeblocker in the toolset.  When you do, make sure you call it Plane15 when first creating it.  This will ensure the Resref for the model is "plane15" - which is what it needs to be for the script to work.  Check the placeable's properties, under Advanced Tab> "Blueprint Resref".  It should read "plane15"

If the resref is still wrong, find out what the resref is and write it down. Edit the script  inc_coverarea. At line 21, change the blue word in quotes, currently "plane15" to whatever your resref is. Save and compile the script and ignore any warnings. (Click yes).

Then follow the read me. It will work.


----------



## rom90125

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I know what the problem is.




Thanks again Steel_Wind, this is now working!  I sincerely appreciate your efforts with getting this to work.  It was not my intention to hijack this thread away from projectors.  I will let you know how this works after our session tonight.


----------



## Steel_Wind

You are welcome 

If you really want to thank me - either use your own - or get one of your players to bring a digital cam to the game tonight and post pics of your setup and results.

Pics say thank-you in the sweetest way


----------



## rom90125

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> You are welcome
> 
> If you really want to thank me - either use your own - or get one of your players to bring a digital cam to the game tonight and post pics of your setup and results.
> 
> Pics say thank-you in the sweetest way




Totally planned on taking pics with my digital!  We don't have a 'real' projector just yet, we are using an InFocus LP750 borrowed from work.  Because it is such an old projector, and our throw distance is limited, we don't get much in the way of an image, but I will make sure I get some good shots to post here.


----------



## Luke

*Suggestion: Replace the miniatures and computerize game mechanics*

Very cool!  

I think that this would be perfect if solid miniatures were replaced by graphical images that appeared on the map directly. You could get a massive benefit by being able to target creatures using a mouse, and have software automatically work out all the numbers for you.

I've worked hard to produce such a setup, which I think would work really well with a projector. Here's what I have so far:

The mapper has all of the pan/zoom/hide/reveal features of Tabletop Mapper.
There are invisible layers where the DM can hide specific floors, creatures or objects, which can be revealed to players when appropriate.
You can use an image map background (from NWN, Dunjinni, CC2, whatever), or you can use the built-in mapper. Using the built-in mapper lets you construct big maps which still give you perfect images when you zoom right in. Its a lot faster than creating lots of small images at the right resolution.
The creatures and map description icons go on top of everything else, and can be dragged around separately to everything else.
You can target and do actions using a mouse (attacks, saves, skill checks etc) which is where the *real time and ease payoff is for losing the miniatures*. You can get very quick results, or check through every modifier of every action, optionally substituting your own dice rolls.
You can make use of a *Player's Window*. This lets the *DM look at a full version of the map, whilst the players only see the revealed sections on their map*.
My Dell laptop has an nVidia card that gives a 2nd monitor. I would use the 2nd monitor for a full Player Window, and send that to the projector.
Alternatively, you can network 2 computers together, and send the players monitor to the projector. That allows players to move their own characters around, within their restricted map view.
This isn't necessarily the view I'd use (and its a *very crappy map example*), but this image demonstrates a DM view of combining computerized mechanics with mapping:






There is a cost to this ($24 shareware), but I don't have a projector, and would be very happy to give you a copy of RolePlayingMaster if you wanted to try it. I'd be very keen to hear about how it goes.

If anybody here wants to try this out on a projector system they have, please feel free to e-mail me.


----------



## Luke

It also occurs to me (fairly obviously) that if you use software that moves PCs and creatures on the map, rather than use miniatures, then you can project onto a wall rather than a tabletop.
Thats got to be a lot safer and easier for most people...


----------



## jodyjohnson

First session with the projector set-up was Friday night.

*The Set-up:*  Permanent 4' x 8' gaming table with 8" deep shelf underneath -- wired for power and network connections.  4 players with laptops (off the table on TV trays) and DM running from a desktop on an end table.  nVidia FX5200 card installed for desktop spanning.

*The Projector:* _Hitachi CP-S225 WAT_ projector resting flat on a shelf permanently attached above the table.  About 9" away is a 1' square mirror attached to a board mounted from the ceiling.  The mirror reflects the image into the table center.

*The Map:*  1400 lumens at a 4.9 foot throw and smallest zoom was actually too bright so I switched to 'whisper' mode and zoomed out as large as possible.  The image was more comfortable and still plenty bright (there is a 75watt light directly above the map for room light.  We're using the back of our old matte board grids as a surface (2 32"x40" sheets).

The image size was 38" x 49" (62" diagonal).  For reference that's bigger than the Darlene Greyhawk map and just smaller than the new Greyhawk maps from Dungeon.  From the center of the map the party can see 80' in all directions.

For projection I set Photoshop at 25% and then used the projection digital zoom to set scale to 1"=5'.  This also served to get rid of the interface.  If menus were needed they were just a button away (Zoom Off/Zoom On).  All the other Photoshop windows were kept on the DM monitor along with the Excel combat sheet.

*The Adventure:* _A2 (Slavers' Stockade)_.  I duplicated the original map pieces with Dundjinni (which maxes at 32"x40").  The stockade took 3 map pieces and the dungeon took 4.  Each map also had a hidden version, and the stockade had extra map layers for the second floor and gatehouses.  All the pieces were combined in Photoshop and I added masking layers and a large border as a buffer for projection.  Exported from Dundjinni at 40 pixels/inch and the Photoshop docs match that.  

*The Session:*  After a late start and updates to characters from the previous session we played up to the Stockade.  The projector has 'Blank' so I popped it off when it wasn't needed.  I zoomed all the way out to give them the general layout from a nearby hill (the roof obscured the room layout) then reset to 25%.  They used a writ gained earlier to bypass the gatehouses and entered the main stockade.  A few traps, fights, noncombat encounters and empty rooms later they were about half done with the stockade level.  We got a bit more done than normal and the group remarked that it was more focused than usual (laptops tend to be a distraction).  The trick/trap reveals ended up adding to the overall role-playing level (we split about 80% hack/20% role-play normally).

*The debrief:*  I explained why we would keep the ~$1200 in MasterMaze as I set a McFarlane Komodo on the table which obsures a big chunk of map.  Plus we don't always want to prep maps for basic caves, tunnels, and small crypts when using the MM is still faster.  

Originally the contrast of the image seemed poor but adjusting the contrast in Photoshop by 30% popped the image right out (the projector does 500:1).  For out of production LCD projectors 500:1 is good.  It's low for DLP but if you have a light shining directly on the screen most of that high contrast goes away (personally I crossed DLPs off my list for potential eye strain from the rainbow effect).

An SVGA projector at 38"x49" means less than 16 pixels/inch on the table.  So yes, we could see 'screendoor' and the map was pixelated.  I'll probably skip tiny features (sconces, small details) and stick with the larger distinct items on future maps.  With our normal grid at 1 pixel per inch (the battlemat grid) this pixelation was acceptable.  If the tradeoff is 200 pixel/inch printed maps at 8.5"x11" or our huge map at 15/inch we go with the big map.  XGA would be 25% better but we'd have to go to UXGA (1600x1200) to really get a fantastic image.  Of course those are $15k+ and weigh 30lbs or more.

*The Bottom Line:*  One used SVGA projector in pristine condition $510 on Ebay.  One dual friendly graphic card $50.  25' VGA cable $12.  Shipping $20.  Mirror Tiles 6/$6.  Brackets, washers, screws, mirror mounts $8.  Dundjinni and Photoshop already owned.  Cost was half what we spent on MasterMaze and less than my yearly miniature spending.  Printing off 32"x40" maps at Kinko's would eat that up quickly (15 sheets of 8.5x11 photo paper isn't cheap either - basic Slaver Stockade maps: 105 sheets).

Pictures should come later.


----------



## Boredflak

Great write-up jodyjohnson. Definitely send pix!

Your setup sounds like it would meet with approval from the folks that have sent me warnings about running a projector while it's tilted too much (as in 90 degrees).

Did you have any problem with keystone distortion?


----------



## Nikmal

Krypter said:
			
		

> That is a cool setup, but I'm a miniatures-hater and I'm still not convinced. NWN may be good for generic dungeon-hacks, but it can't imitate the fantastic glory of a setting like Planescape, where my players last month visited a burg perched on a huge stalagmite column which had titanic blades and chains spinning around it generating steam power. How would you ever show that in NWN? The place looks 10x better in my imagination that in any generic NWN tileset.



Well until something better comes along would it not be worth the try especially with todays hak paks out there and improved tilesets.. you also forget that one can switich over to 3d mode with this on the atable and show the actual scene they see.. so yes you can show the spinning blades and some other cool spell affects.   (there is also the fact that you can not show the cool effect you are thinking about without something similar to this now... ) But then again like you mentioned one would have to invest or re-invest in some more minis  I just thought that while I was reading through this thread that I would comment on this one because I am such a huge fan of NWN and what it has accomplished so far especially with the community support it has thus far!
-jon


----------



## Nikmal

Will said:
			
		

> Finally... 'NWN tools are available to anyone reading this'... you missed a clause. 'Who uses a PC rather than a Mac.' Not that I'm still bitter or anything.





Sorry if this already been covered in another post... but there is NWN toolsets out there for a Mac just as easily as there are for the PC.. so yes you could use a MAc! My wife does and she plays NWN and makes campaigns in it too 
-jon


----------



## punkorange

I remembered to bring a camera to last week's session, so here is a link to the images from our projector setup:
http://www.geocities.com/punkorangecamo/images.html


----------



## Lasher Dragon

I'd just like to say Thank You Steel Wind for your advice - I just ordered the BenQ PB6200. I can hardly wait to get it. Hopefully I will be ready to use it this weekend for the 2nd episode in the WLD. Thank you as well to everyone else who posted in this thread, it has really convinced me that this is the next much-needed evolution of today's PnP RPG. While it initially may take some time & thought to implement this amazing transition, once the bugs are worked out I imagine I'll be hard-pressed to ever revert back to dry-erase markers on a grid. Good Gaming everyone!


----------



## punkorange

yeah, I agree.  After running three sessions with the projector, I don't know if I would ever use my dry erase board again.  It not only helps in combat, but also in clearing off the map as the adventure continues.  Or showing someone "part" of the map and not more.


----------



## Steel_Wind

punkorange said:
			
		

> It not only helps in combat, but also in clearing off the map as the adventure continues.  Or showing someone "part" of the map and not more.




Your image was looking a little small.  Have you considered trying to remove a drop ceiling panel to grab another 8" of throw distance?

Not to put too fine a point on matters - but it looks like you could use it.   

Thanks for the pics by the way.  Much appreciated.


----------



## punkorange

yes, we have definately thought about it .  In fact we might give it a try.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> I just ordered the BenQ PB6200. I can hardly wait to get it. Hopefully I will be ready to use it this weekend for the 2nd episode in the WLD. Thank you as well to everyone else who posted in this thread, it has really convinced me that this is the next much-needed evolution of today's PnP RPG. While it initially may take some time & thought to implement this amazing transition, once the bugs are worked out I imagine I'll be hard-pressed to ever revert back to dry-erase markers on a grid.




Most excellent!

Looking forward to your pics and experiences.  Jody's review of his own setup [above]was very thorough. Like Jans, I am looking forward to seeing those pics.


----------



## Steel_Wind

punkorange said:
			
		

> After running three sessions with the projector, I don't know if I would ever use my dry erase board again.




Oh there is no doubt of that.  

That does not mean that a dry erase pen on a battlemat does not have its uses at times.  You use what tools are available.

But on the whole - it is a night and day experience for both the DM and players.  Like Jans wrote in his inital letter to _Dungeon #113_, if for some reason his place is not available such that the projector is not available - his spolied players want to cancel the game.

That's just the way it is.  Once you've tried it - you don't go back.


----------



## Boredflak

Heh. This is great. I'm glad others are deriving as much enjoyment from this as we have in our game. It really has enhanced our gaming experience.

Several people have expressed a concern that by projecting a visually detailed map, you'll be hampering the player's ability to imagine the fantasy environment. Or that a DM might use the projected images as a crutch that would impair his or her description of the character's surroundings and storytelling abilities. I can only tell you that none of these things have happened in our game. Using a projector has been an entirely positive experience.


----------



## paulsometimes

Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> While it initially may take some time & thought to implement this amazing transition, once the bugs are worked out I imagine I'll be hard-pressed to ever revert back to dry-erase markers on a grid. Good Gaming everyone!




This is what worries me about trying such a setup.  One of the things I've always liked about RPGs is that they don't need much to be used.  Not that I don't like all the extras to add to the game, but I don't ever want to feel so spoiled that I can't enjoy the game in its most basic form.

Paul


----------



## JamesL85

I e-mailed the players in my group and told them we need to cuss more at the table.....

Let me explain.....

We have a "cuss bucket" that each person has to put $.25 in each time they cuss.  It was initially put in place to keep the players from cussing around a couple of the other player's younger children, but now we have a "holy grail" to pursue!!!!  We've purchased battlemats, and miniatures before, but I can already tell that the normal victory whoop during a particular battle may go up from $1.50 to $5.00 or $10.00, depending on the ferocity of my swearing.....LOL


Thanks again to all who have posted, and I look forward to seeing the afore-mentioned FAQ on making this available to the masses.....

James


----------



## WingOver

paulsometimes said:
			
		

> This is what worries me about trying such a setup.  One of the things I've always liked about RPGs is that they don't need much to be used.  Not that I don't like all the extras to add to the game, but I don't ever want to feel so spoiled that I can't enjoy the game in its most basic form.
> 
> Paul




I used to think that too... but then I take a look at some art in Dungeon or Dragon, or my buddy's miniature collection and get inspired by how cool they look.  Imagination is an integral part of D&D, but you shouldn't discount the impact of stunning visuals on the game.

I'm waiting for my bonus... I really want to get a projector.


----------



## Ridley's Cohort

As a practical matter, what kind of image size do you need?


Looks like the Dell 2300MP DLP has 22" x 30" image at a throw distance of 6'. 
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Dell-2300MP.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Dell-2300MP-projection-calculator-pro.htm

The  BenQ PB6200 does a little better with a 28" x 37" image at a 6' distance.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-PB6200.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-PB6200-projection-calculator-pro.htm


Does a zoom of 1.20:1 figure into this at all?

What does "Screen Gain" mean?


----------



## Boredflak

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> What does "Screen Gain" mean?




Screen gain is a measurement of reflectivity of a surface. The baseline is a flat white. A screen gain of 1 is what a flat white surface would be. A screen gain of 2 would be twice as reflective, .5 would reflect half as much light, etc.

Here's a good article about it:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projector_screens_gain.htm


----------



## Ridley's Cohort

If I understand this correctly, zoom will directly increase my image size.

From http://www.projectorcentral.com/glossary.cfm#Z :


> Zoom Lens Ratio: Is the ratio between the smallest and largest image a lens can projector from a fixed distance. For example, a 1.4:1 zoom lens ratio means that a 10 foot image without zoom would be a 14 foot image with full zoom. Conversely, a 10 foot diagonal image at 15 feet with no zoom would still be a 10 image at 21 feet at maximum zoom (15 x 1.4 = 21 feet). A zoom lens is "not as bright" as a fixed lens, and the higher the ratio, the less light output.




So, approximately speaking a 1.20:1 will give us...
22" x 30" --> 26" x 36"
28" x 37" --> 34" x 44"

In comparison a standard battlemat is ~33" x 40something".  Given that we get suboptimal placement plus books & snacks on our table, I suspect our effective usable area must be noticeably south of 30" x 40".


----------



## Steel_Wind

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> If I understand this correctly, zoom will directly increase my image size.
> 
> From http://www.projectorcentral.com/glossary.cfm#Z :




You understand it correctly.  Basically, I discount the top half to top one-third of the size increase available due to zoom.  Around the middle value of that available size increase is about as far as you want to push it on most models.  This varies with image brighness and pixel density. A very bright XGA projector might be able to push the acceptable image size up through zooming more than a fair quality, barely bright enough SGVA projector can.


----------



## Ridley's Cohort

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Might I suggest you are missing the obvious though?  If you are using NWN, why not simply use the creature models in the game? You will have a ready made supply of hundreds of creatures, limitless PC races and you will never, _ever_ run out.  There is nothing more you will need to buy.
> 
> Admittedly, you can't use something like Tabletop Mapper with NWN digital minis, but if cost of miniatures is your concern, an all digital solution is possible.




Since you are both the NWN and projector expert I would like to pick your brain on this suggestion.   

Have you any experience with computer images for monsters on screen?  What kind of resolution do you need to render recognizable monsters?

A quick back of the envelop calculation tells me that typical resolution would be in the 20x20 to 35x35 pixels per square inch range (depending on particulars of the projector and set up).

Toying with some random clip images, I have my doubts that any monster icon would be recognizable at less than 30x30 and maybe not even then unless the image was designed for that purpose.

Thoughts?


----------



## Lasher Dragon

I received my BenQ PB6200 on Friday. I am very impressed with it so far. The only complaint I have about it is that it says it is HDTV compatible, but it doesn't have component video inputs. Instead, you must order a $25 cable from BenQ that converts component-style cables to a VGA cable. Of course I wasn't aware I needed it until I got the projector, so now I have to wait another week or so to see HD in action. LOL Yeah I know, I'm not a very patient person. Friday I called probably about 15 places to see if anyone had a VGA-HDTV converter cable to no avail.

The picture, even without HD, is awesome. The brightness level is quite good, even in a room with venetian blinds in daytime. Also, that wide-angle lens allows me to fill nearly an entire wall in wide-screen in my relatively-small living room. Being an avid videogamer, I spent quite a few hours on Xbox Live blasting away at people. I also watched quite a few movies w/my wife, and it was better than being at the theater. An amusing side effect was watching my cat watch the moving images on the wall. Now I can't wait to get HD and Discovery HD Theater - I imagine I'll have hours of laughter just watching the cat try to hunt the light.

Unfortunately I didn't have enough time to setup the projector for Saturday's gaming session. I think it is going to work superbly, I just have a few loose-ends to take care of - namely a computer (I have a few that need to be formatted and have some more RAM slapped in), a new video card, and of course a way to *temporarily* mount the projector. Hopefully I can get this taken care of in the next 2 weeks... if I don't spend too much time on Xbox Live


----------



## Toscadero

I'm not finding the Dell 2200 on their site at this time.  However, they do have an 1100 that is selling for $699.00.  It says that the model is new and it looks a lot like the 2200.  Any thoughts on this model?  

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/proj?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs


----------



## neocamp22

Hi everyone!
This idea is completely awesome and I will probably try it out. My question is, what projector do I use? I have a budget of about 500-600 dollars, possibly 700. I want something about the quality of what steel_wind has. I have an 8 foot ceiling and size and weight don't matter to much, as long as I can figure out a way to hang it. Any news on the site steel_wind?


----------



## neocamp22

What do you guys think of the  Boxlight SD-650z Projector ?
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Boxlight-SD-650z.htm


----------



## Steel_Wind

Toscadero said:
			
		

> I'm not finding the Dell 2200 on their site at this time.  However, they do have an 1100 that is selling for $699.00.  It says that the model is new and it looks a lot like the 2200.  Any thoughts on this model?
> 
> http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/proj?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs




Hmmm...

Well. It's not an ass-kicking unit, but it would appear to be ok and would meet min requirments.

It is not on the Projector Central database yet as its only been out a month or so.  That means we don't know what the min throw distance/resolution specs are - but I would anticipate they are comparable to similar units in a similar range at SVGA resolution which tends to be a little larger than XGA at that throw dist, ie. 36"-44" at 5'7" throw.  That's speculation - but educated speculation   

It's new - it's on for $699 and it's a Dell.  If budget is your issue  - this would probably fill the need.

Note - Dell often does not run these specials for long, so if you are sitting back thinking you can get it at this price in a week or two - I wouldn't bet on that if I were you.

*Specs on 1100MP*

 - New Design - just released. Dell's new low end DLP Projector

--800x600 native mode with autoscaling (not great, but it will do the job)

-- 2100:1 contrast ratio for improved image depth and clarity. (Very good.  This is one of the benefits of buying a new model with a new design using the new DLP video circuits and processors.)
-- Brightness of 1400 ANSI lumens max for crisp video and graphics.  (sufficient)

-- Dimensions - 9.9 x 8.4 x 3.96 inches; weight - 4.85 lbs. (reasonable in size, though a little square.)

-- Accessories that ship standard with each 1100MP projector include a sturdy, hard foam carrying case; all compatible video cables, including S-Video, composite video, component video/HDTV, audio, VGA and USB; a quick start guide; and a remote control. (nice cabling + a case)

Verdict: Seems to be adequate to the task and you'll get a better definition then is shown in my pics of comparable size and brightness.  Brand new for $699 with ZERO mileage on the bulb? Not too shabby at all.  Give it a go and let us know 

-- For more information, visit www.dell.com/1100MP.


----------



## Steel_Wind

neocamp22 said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of the  Boxlight SD-650z Projector ?
> http://www.projectorcentral.com/Boxlight-SD-650z.htm



 I think it's just a touch brighter than the 1100MP, but not so much you are going to notice, really.

Otherwise, it is identical in all basic performance  features- as described the the manuafacturer at least -  to the Dell 1100MP discussed above

They all lie a little in their ads as they measure ANSI and contrast under conditions that are not going to be of the nature real people use these under.  That said, Dell tends to lie a little less flagrantly.

Verdict: Adequate for the purpose. Depends on the price, I'd say.


----------



## Toscadero

Steel Wind,

Thanks for the reply.  I've been following this thread and trying to figure how I can swing the money.  The Dell popped up today I believe and the offer is only good until the 13th of April.  Considering that I am also making the leap to a laptop this may be in my price mode.  I was going to get a laptop eventually so that is not much of a leap, but this will keep my total cost under $2,000.

I've also been looking at the BenQ, but that easily puts me over $2,000 with the laptop.  Any tips on what I should look for in a laptop?  Video cards, etc.?


----------



## Steel_Wind

Laptops are a very personal matter, I think.  People like different things, use them for different purposes. That dramatically affects what you will need or want.  I use mine everyday.  It is principally a web browser /word processor, but I also use it for movies, gaming and my kids play PC Games on it .

But out of all of the above - the most important thing to me was that I use it everyday. It comes to work with me, to court and home. I lug it around a lot - so it needs to be dependable and light.  I use it to type - so I like a nice keyboard.  I use it on the train - so wide screen is out. End result: I got a Thinkpad.  A low end 3d video chipset but it works for my purposes.

Your needs may be very different. If you are looking for a desktop replacement, Toshiba Satellite or HP may be the way to go. A widescreen like that is *out* for my purposes though.

For gaming .pdf use, one of my oldest friends in my gaming circle picked up a Gateway Tablet/Notebook convertible. We are all insanely jealous of it.  It's *very* nice.

NVidia or Radeon chipsets if you can.  But there are a lot of factors which go in to what laptop floats your boat.  Nearly all will support a projector, so after you ensure it will do that, choose the model which fits your needs best.


----------



## Frostmarrow

-My first try. I rigged the projector to the ceiling using wires and a lamp mount. The projector was a Toshiba TDP T-80. I also had a locked security wire attached as a double safety.

The projector lit up a respectable area on the table. Some 36" by 18" at least. I forgot to bring the camera but luckily at least I had my cell phone.

I used TabletopMapper to make a bunch of maps. Mostly I used maps from Complete Divine. On the pictures you can see the temples of Ehlonna and Hextor. I also used maps from The Secret of Bone Hill. These maps turned out best mainly because they were made back in the old days when 5' was 5'. Also those maps were b/w and that makes for great contrast.

I haven't tested this in play yet but hopefully my group will find a time to do so soon. Most of my friends are in favor of the idea. Those I've demonstrated it for are duly impressed. For sure, they have ideas for how to better mount the projector but I don't mind.

TabletopMapper worked great and the zoom in the program was enough to quickly find the right scale in mere seconds.






_A fierce battle as elven rangers fight to protect their lofty tree temple. _


----------



## SirJalore

*Going to give this a try*

Okay...  So this is my very first post on Enworld, and this is the first thread that has made me take the leap to become part of the discussion.

So first, thanks for starting this thread Steel_Wind, it has my players very excited about the prospect of using a projector during gameplay.

One of our group first thought he'd be able to borrow one from work and when that didn't turn out, I got frustrated so just went and bought one, based a lot on what had been said here on this thread.

Here is what I got for just over $1000.00 at Sam's Club.  I wasn't going to buy it outright, but when my wife said, "It's what you need, right?"  "yeah, I think so."  "Then buy it!", you don't let that kind of opportunity pass you by!  (I was considering waiting until Steel_Wind got the 'how to' manual put together first, but I couldn't wait so I've become self taught on projectors at this point.  Thanks to whoever posted up the projector central website, that place rocks for this information.)

I wasn't able to get it mounted up yet, (after a rather spectacular failed plan, of which I really don't want to relate at the moment... still too painful    ) but should have it for out next session, which unfortunately won't be for awhile.  But the thing is supersmall and just as good on the tech specs info. vs. anything else I've seen put forward, except that one super mini model that hasn't come out yet that someone posted earlier, so for the money and the mobility factor and as such also the versatility of using it for both the game and for a home theater system I am rather impressed.  The only concern I have had is if the lumens were going to be enough.  I've run it in a lighted room and it does very well when the video feed is from my laptop.  I will post up some digital photos if I can when I get it all hooked up.   At this point the plan is to just put it into a small cage, (actually the cage is an ironing board hanger I picked up at Lowe's that fits it perfectly, thanks also for that idea Steel_Wind!) and put some hooks in the cieling over where we play and hang it there. As the weight of the thing is like just over 3 lbs., it should'nt be a major problem or concern.

At any rate,  I'll let you know how it goes.  Thanks for letting me blabber on!    But this really is something that I think will make gameplay even more fun! It will actually reduce some of my stress on prepping for eash sesson as DM.

PS  Hereis a link of a review by projectorcentral.com on the model I bought.  Let me know what you all think of it!?


----------



## Steel_Wind

> PS Hereis a link of a review by projectorcentral.com on the model I bought. Let me know what you all think of it!?




The specs on the model look fine.  Brightness might be a _little_ low though, especially if you are using fast frames/color changes instead of "presentation mode" (most of time time presenation mode should be fine for gaming table applications), . Overall it sounds ok - and the image size appeared to be good at 42"+ at 5'6".

My real concern was this quote from the review:



> *No Ceiling Mount * - Although not stated in the User's Manual, the Sharp XR-1X is not suitable for ceiling mount due to the limited air flow when the projector is inverted. Sharp does state the constraints on the bottom of the projector and the User's Manual demonstrates a number of ways to do front and rear projection from a table or floor. Since this projector is intended for mobile use and sharing, we do not consider this a limitation. _However, if your needs require a ceiling mount, seek another projector. _




Now - you aren't inverting it but you are putting it on its side.  This should *probably be ok*, but check this often during your sessions.

My expectation is that you will be able to deal with this with a small external fan if you need to. A simple 5 inch case fan from a computer would probably be sufficient - but please do not ignore this issue.  Too much money for a new projector to start screwing around with warranties and heat flow. 

Post pics as soon as you got em!


----------



## SarlonDragier

*Animations*



> I have all my maps on my laptop. I don’t erase anything. They look FABULOUS and I can even include animated effects like fireballs, walls of fire, lava pits, etc.




What are you using for the animations such as the 'fireball'?

Borrowed a projector from work and set it up in 15 minutes...looks great.

Thanks!


----------



## Steel_Wind

neocamp22 said:
			
		

> Hi everyone!
> This idea is completely awesome and I will probably try it out. My question is, what projector do I use? I have a budget of about 500-600 dollars, possibly 700. I want something about the quality of what steel_wind has. I have an 8 foot ceiling and size and weight don't matter to much, as long as I can figure out a way to hang it. Any news on the site steel_wind?




If our setup is "good enough" for you, the Dell 1100mp would appear to fill that need with a picture which will have even better contrast and definition than the one we use for $699.  It's on sale right now for another 10 days or so.

Link is in the spec discussion above.

If you want to go cheaper than that - there are really no credible options currently in the marketplace for doing so with a new projector.  You can ebay one.  That will probably be ok. But it might not be.  It is very much a case of caveat emptor and the bulbs for a DLP are high pressure optics doo-dads which will cost between $300-$400 to replace.  _That is not a typo _ and that already assumes you are buying it online.  Yes. _That_ expensive for a replacement bulb.

ebaying a projector for $500, only to have to replace the bulb in 4-6 months time for $400 more may not be a bargain compared to buying a new projector at a great price.

Then again, you may get a geat XGA projector off of ebay that more than makes up for the bulb issue.  Or your ebayed unit may end up having a low mileage bulb so you can save a litle in the short to medium run (ours is still just fine).  It's a crap shoot.


----------



## RithTheAwakener

definately a great idea, id love to play in a game using a projector, and i bet it would keep side-talk down quite a bit


----------



## Ariel23

Happy Birthday, Steel_Wind!


----------



## Steel_Wind

Bday? Yikes. The Big 4-Oh. *sigh*

As for the Dell 1100mp, the sale price has vanished from the Dell.com site. The Dell.ca site says it is on sale in Canada until April 7.

Told you these sale things don't last long...


----------



## Ariel23

I have a question related to throw distance and a straight celing mount.
How much does an extra 3 - 6 " matter, generally?

Specifically, should we take into account the depth (as in H x W x D) of the projector unit, or only for low ceilings?

Take for example the NEC LT170 which is a whopping 11" deep (an extreme example)
http://www.projectorcentral.com/NEC-LT170.htm
compared with the Sharp Notevision XR-1X purchased by SirJalore (4.8" D)
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sharp_PG_Series-Notevision_XR-1X.htm


----------



## Steel_Wind

Yes, at the distances we are discussing for throw distances and screen size, every inch matters.

So, yes,  the depth of the unit matters and 3" and _most definitely_ 6" of extra throw will impact on the image size.  When I am talking throw distance, I mean from the front of the lens to the top of the table - not ceiling to table.


----------



## Sieobahn

My setup has been fully in place now for two sessions of Worlds Largest Dunegon, and one session with another DM in his home brew campaign setting, which happens to use the maps from Undermountain level 3.







The projector is a Sanyo PLC-XU41 that I picked up cheap. It has 1500 lumens and a 1024x768 resolution. It mounted it is 1700mm away from the board, which gives us an image 800x600mm.

I used strips of aluminium to create a cradle for the projector. They are just bent into shape and bolted together, with some foam padding. The stand is a lighting stand I bought on e-bay. It is easy to setup and pack away. The only problem is to get the maximum throw it is right against the ceiling so I can't use the ceiling fan.

For control I have two computers running Klooge Werks. The maps can be scanned in, it imports jpg files easily. For the Undermountain session I created the maps from the FR Atlas.

On the master (left hand laptop) I can see all of the map, and reveal areas as the characters explore. 
The client program runs on my old laptop (Celeron400 with 128Mb ram) and is connected to the projector. I can move the map around, and zoom in or out as needed. 
While exploring I leave it zoomed out, but when combat begins, I zoom in so the scale is correct for the minatures.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Great cradle! And the light stand seems to work well enough.

Good size image.  (Your scan on the WLD could use a wee more resolution mind you..)

Kloogeworks seems to work well for you.  The 2nd computer is not that big an issue, especially if all one needed was an old  Celeron PII300a.  No shortage of those lurking in closets and garages of ENworlders I would guess.

Thanks very much for these pics.  I hope you and your players are enjoying your projector.


----------



## Sieobahn

The WLD image is taken from a PDF file. I have worked out how to get a better quality image from it, but haven't bothered yet. It makes it harder for them to spot the area's where it has been editted to take out the secret doors.   
In the other campaign I have some great images taken from campaign cartographer, it works great for this sort of thing.

I previously used an old desktop pc for the projector, but the power supply failed and I haven't been able to replace it yet.

Thanks Steel_Wind, we are all enjoying the setup. It makes it a lot easier, and eliminates all the arguments about who is where when the traps and spells go off.


----------



## Steel_Wind

There are several others posters here who have recently acquired a projector.

Could you please take some more pics of your setup and results? Especially you Jody!) and post them here or send to me at steelwind@dladventures.com if you are not able to post them?

I am trying to include as many pics and different styles in the Digital Projection guide as I can.


----------



## jodyjohnson

Here's some picts.

A little blurry.  Still need to RTFM for my camera.

Table is 4'x8'.  Map is about 37"x49".  The best way to compare brightness is with the computer monitor.

The mirror and projector straps are attached through elbow brackets screwed to the shelving and then into the wood.


----------



## jeffhartsell

I'm one of the players and let me say this setup is way better than master maze and cheaper in the long run (if you have a PC handy).  You also needs lots of figs   

Anyway, the map is very easy to see with basic room lighting.  We all have laptops so that helps with book-keeping (we have a custom XLS character sheet to track buffs, stats, etc)

We've cut our sessions down in time and get more done using a projector since the map work is much faster.  Plus, it looks better.


----------



## Toscadero

Steelwind,

You've hooked another convert.  I ordered my laptop (which I was getting anyway) and the Dell 1100 yesterday.  The $699 deal is still on for now.  I guess it depends on which page you access it from.  

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/proj?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

I will definately post pictures when I use this.  The real job starts now since we game in our dining room.   I have a high ceiling, but can't use one of the easy basement style rigs.  Wife is ok with it as long as it comes down each time we finish and does not ruin her ceiling.  Will post pictures of that as well.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Glad to hear it!   

I just picked up another projector today off of ebay today. A TOSHIBA TLP-T60MU 1500 ANSI XGA LCD.  Not the best going, but the price was right (480.00 USD).  My sincere apologies to ebay bidder and probable ENWorlder "game-lab" who was clearly a PnP gamer from his history of purchases on ebay. All I can say is www.auctionsniper.com ...

I plan to use this one for home theatre and to have as a back up projector here.  While I am on the subject, however, there did seem to be a projector very well suited to a gaming table on ebay today. It's a TOSHIBA TLP-261U which has a very short distance throw lens  - short enough you could try beneath the table projection with this model.

The stats for the projector are here though, and the upshot on this 1500 ANSI 800x600 model is that you can get a 42" image in under 3 feet throw.


----------



## azhrei_fje

*I know these people...*



			
				jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> www.projectorcentral.com
> Use Calculator Pro
> 
> Check to make sure your projector can focus at short range (ours is about 4' max, or 5' with a mirror).  With a mirror we also are looking for a ceiling mount (vertical flip) and rear projection (horizontal flip).
> 
> It will also give image size at your target distance.  Our target for selecting a projectors is 30"x40" at 5' (50" diagonal).  This gives enough room for the party to see up to 12" (60') in all directions (darkvision range, lowlight w/30' light source).



Sorry I'm so late posting here.  I wasn't aware of this thread, so I started on page one and it's taken me awhile to read to page 5!

I bought my projector from these folks.  A friend of my wife's works at projectorpeople.com.  (If you call, ask for Carmen; tell her Frank of "Frank and Beth" sent you!   Maybe that'll save you money, maybe it'll cost you more. No guarantees from me!)

I bought a NEC LT240K.  With the screen to project onto (I'm using it for movies and playstation, too) it cost me about $2k back in December '04.  It was my Christmas present to myself, and I didn't get anything else.  

I've got a pool table upstairs, so I've been moving the projector around each session, trying to figure out how I want to do this. Hanging it above the table would be tough because I put a ceiling fan there.   But I'm going to look at putting a shorter drop-shaft on the fan and gaining another 4"-5".  Maybe top projection would work after that?  I also thought I might put some kind of reflective surface above the table instead of hanging the projector directly over the top, but that won't work without a honkin' big mirror because this projector has a pretty big image with a short throw distance.

I would recommend this projector, but compared to prices that Steel Wind has posted, I would want a better deal nowadays.  Still, it has two VGA inputs, component, DVI, and S-video.  And a USB port so that the remote that comes with the projector can be fed back to the laptop to control the mouse!  This is *cool*!  The projector's remote has a simple "paddle" on it that can be pressed in 8 directions and the projector sends mouse events to the laptop.  Combined with the laser pointer built into the remote, that's about all we need.  

I use Tabletop Mapper, as Steel Wind mentioned, but I've found it too slow for what I want to do.  He didn't mention this (so far in the thread), but it has the ability to keep track of PCs locations and automatically do LoS calculations and expose pieces of the map that the characters can actually see (you put in sight distance for each character).  However, it's written in VB and it's not fast enough on my Sony 1.6GHz PentM.   I'm rewriting it in C++ and adding some other features.  Since I don't really like Windoze, though, I'm writing it using the Qt3 framework so it'll compile everywhere (Qt is a free cross-platform GUI library).  I'll post here when it's usable...


----------



## Frostmarrow

azhrei_fje said:
			
		

> However, it's written in VB and it's not fast enough on my Sony 1.6GHz PentM.   I'm rewriting it in C++ and adding some other features.  Since I don't really like Windoze, though, I'm writing it using the Qt3 framework so it'll compile everywhere (Qt is a free cross-platform GUI library).  I'll post here when it's usable...




Windows XP is not fast enough for me so I'm rewriting it in Java. Just kidding. It must be cool to be able to rewrite software you aren't completely satisfied with.


----------



## azhrei_fje

*My TMapper implementation*



			
				Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> Windows XP is not fast enough for me so I'm rewriting it in Java. Just kidding. It must be cool to be able to rewrite software you aren't completely satisfied with.



Heh-heh, yeah, right.  The biggest issue is *time*!  I'm using this as an exercise to learn Qt, too -- I teach corporate computer classes; stuff like Linux Device Drivers and Advanced C++.

So far, it will load the image, zoom it to a variety of levels and cache previous images so that the scaling process doesn't slow things down (with scrollbars and window resizing).  There's an overlay grid which is created by drawing a rectangle on the map, but which also has text fields to allow fine-tuning the width and height of the grid (I still need to add an origin setting).  I have square shapes that I can grab with the mouse and drag around on the screen.

I need to add fog-of-war facilities for it to be usable at the game table.  I have plans to build into it a client-server mode and put an old 233MHz machine upstairs to run the projector.  I want to add colored (and possibly animated) shapes to represent objects on the map:  PCs, NPCs, monsters, etc.  One thing I like about TMapper is the area-of-effect shapes for circles and rectangles -- it really helps to visualize how much of an area is occupied by a _silence_ spell, for example.  So that feature will find its way into my program as well.

When I get a little more done on it, I'll apply for space at sourceforge.net and post the source code there -- it will all be available under the GPL, of course.


----------



## Ahrimon

One thing you might want to add.  TMapper's area of effect markers only center on squares.  If i'm not mistaken a number of spells target the corners of a square.  It's also limited with the coneshapes I beleive.  You might want to look into that while you're designing it.

I wish I could do what your doing.  I can do a lot, but when it comes to graphics, I'm lost.  I would love to tweak the TMapper to fit what I want to do with it.


Ahrimon


----------



## 3d6+15

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> It must be cool to be able to rewrite software you aren't completely satisfied with.




Cool?

It's a curse!  Once you start down the path of software development you start being dissatisfied with a lot of software you would otherwise put up with.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Azhrei, you've hidden your e-mail address on your profile.  

Could you please e-mail me at steelwind@dladventures.com or send me a private message here with your e-mail address?  There is something I would like to ask you off thread, as it were.


----------



## Melkor

3d6+15 said:
			
		

> Cool?
> 
> It's a curse!  Once you start down the path of software development you start being dissatisfied with a lot of software you would otherwise put up with.




It's the same with playing RPGs for years.


----------



## Blakey

*Options Please?*

Hi,

I read this thread for the first time yesterday, went home last night and measured up my Games Room.   There is 64" from the ceiling height to the top of our games table.

Could you recommend a set of projectors which would be able to cope with this set up?

Basically, I'd like to build some sort of portable support system like shown in the first post of this thread, rather than strap the projector to the ceiling.   So I'm guessing I'm going to have at most 4'6" or there abouts for throw distance.   Are there any projectors which will throw a suitable "gaming board" sized display at that short a range?    If so, could you recommend me a few?

Assume cost is not an issue, but perhaps list a few from expensive to as cheap as possible.

I'd rather not go to all the trouble of setting up a mirror and all that malarchy - would rather just have a portable system which allows me to swing the projector over the table and go from there.

I've a feeling I'm going to have to buy a lower Games Table as I cannot raise the ceiling of the room at all.    

I have been over to that projector web page but can't find a comparison option to enable me to list projectors by throw distance (or any other features come to that).   So if there is a place on there I can do that, feel free to point me at it and I can look all this up for myself.

Any help would be supremely appreciated!

Cheers
Blakey


----------



## Ariel23

You can't list projectors by throw distance/diagonal, per se.
However, you can put in requirements here:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm
and then click on each entry in the list it gives you. Once you are in the projector entry, click on the little calculator icon next to "Throw Distance" on the left.

Alternatively, get a short list of good projectors and then narrow it down by using their handy-dandy throw/diagonal calculator:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calculator-pro.cfm

_Or_
Go to their search/comparison engine
http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm
and put in 4.5 feet (or whatever you think your distance is) and the diagonal size you are looking for. I just put in 4.5 feet and a diagonal of 48", which returned a list of 10 projectors.
I would recommend a more reasonable diagonal such as 42" or 44" and then put in some more criteria such as SVGA, high contrast, brightness, etc.


----------



## Blakey

Thanks Ariel23.   

Have had a more in-depth look at my options and I'm really struggling to find a projector which will deliver a good sized "battlemap" on the table at a distance of 4'.  It seems that the Toshiba TLP 261 mentioned above would be perfect but that's been discontinued.

Are there any projectors which will do this?

Thanks
Blakey


----------



## Steel_Wind

Well, there are a number of projectors which meet that test, but you need to reconsider your "requirements" a little.

Sure, everyone wants a 48" map.  In most circumstances at anything less than 1600x1200 kick-ass resolution, that's borderig on a visibly _too_ pixellated image anyway.  To my eye, it's not a realistic expecation at ANY throw distance for low end projectors.  Your picture is not sharp enough on most models for an image that large.

You are going to have to live in the 38" to 42" range and use zoom to increase image size a little to the 44" range. Please be aware that as you compensate with zoom factor to expand the image, resulting ANSI brightness drops.

Secondly, you are looking for a VERY short throw distance here.  You are presumably still gaming at a sit down table with this expected setup.  It's not unreasonable to _want_ that and I am not suggesting it is - but it may well be unrealistic, most especially if you want a large image _and _ wish to avoid mirrors as part of your projection setup.

We game at a coffee table height table between 4 couches.  The extra 2' or so pays off large in terms of throw distance.  Others here who are gaming at sit down tables have 
either accepted a smaller image or are achiveing a larger one with a wide angle lens and a mirror assist to get that extra foot or so of throw.

At some point - physics invades. The difference between 4 feet and 5 feet 8" are HUGE in terms of their impact on image size.  If you want it all - be prepared to have to pay for it or start to examine how many of your "requirements" could use some subtle revision.

Lastly, Ariel23's advice on searching projector central above was good. If you are finding little, its because your expectations on image size are not being realistic.

That said, there are models out there as the search discloses.  As well, please pay close attention to ebay - these models come up frequently there.


----------



## toberane

That. Is. So. Cool.  I'm.... stunned.  

Now I have to go save up an astronomical amount of money and do that...

I mean, I should have plenty of time for gaming after my wife divorces me for even suggesting aomething like that.


----------



## Lasher Dragon

toberane said:
			
		

> That. Is. So. Cool.  I'm.... stunned.
> 
> Now I have to go save up an astronomical amount of money and do that...
> 
> I mean, I should have plenty of time for gaming after my wife divorces me for even suggesting aomething like that.




I got my projector for about a grand brand new, and guess what? My wife loves it. We rent movies regularly, and now it's as if we have a theater right in our living room. We never go to the theater anymore, and that's gotta pay for itself in the long run. I mean, theater popcorn alone is what, like $6???


----------



## Steel_Wind

toberane said:
			
		

> That. Is. So. Cool.  I'm.... stunned.
> 
> Now I have to go save up an astronomical amount of money and do that...
> 
> I mean, I should have plenty of time for gaming after my wife divorces me for even suggesting aomething like that.




$500 will do it.  Talk to your gaming group and discuss everyone chipping in.  Very quickly, you are looking at 80-100 per person, and that's just NOT an astronomical amount of money at all.

That's the cost of the Core Rules for something you will use EVERY session.  Do keep it in perspective.


----------



## Blakey

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> You are going to have to live in the 38" to 42" range and use zoom to increase image size a little to the 44" range. Please be aware that as you compensate with zoom factor to expand the image, resulting ANSI brightness drops.




Okay, that's not a problem.  We can cope with this sort of sized battle map being available to play on.



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Secondly, you are looking for a VERY short throw distance here. You are presumably still gaming at a sit down table with this expected setup. It's not unreasonable to _want_ that and I am not suggesting it is - but it may well be unrealistic, most especially if you want a large image _and _wish to avoid mirrors as part of your projection setup.




Yeah, we are playing at a dining room table basically.   Its now dedicated to the Games Room but I've currently no intention of replacing our "sit up set up" with a "lounging about set up"   

So, yes I realise this is a very short throw distance but at least the Toshiba 261 projector you posted about will deal with this.   Can you point me at any which will also do so, which are still in production? 


Cheers
Blakey


----------



## rom90125

Well, our group finally settled RL issues and we were able to squeeze in a session last night.  Our setup is as follows:
The projector we are using is an old InFocus LP750, borrowed from work, sitting on a shelf mounted overhead and projected into a 1x1 mirror title.  The image is then displayed on a piece of white formica (with 1" squares drawn onto the surface) which is clamped to our tabletop.  We have found that Crayola Washable markers work well on the formica and can easily be cleaned off when needed.  Our image size is ~39"x~31".  The image size is smaller than what others in this thread are able to get, but, considering how old our projector is, we are satisfied with this size.  Thus far, our maps come from the NWN toolset, utilizing the 'blacktile' written by Steel_Wind and his crew (thanks again!) as the 'Fog Of War'.  I've included a few pics showing the layout.  A special thanks to Iola, our Female Star Elf Bard/Arcane Archer for providing scale in the pics   
And a thanks again to everyone, especially Steel_Wind, who has posted in this thread.


----------



## Zoatebix

Thanks for taking so much time to give advice and answer quesions, Steel_Wind!  How's the "Complete Guide to Digital Map Projection" coming along?


----------



## Steel_Wind

I actually pitched a mini-guide as a feature article to Dragon a month or so ago.

I've heard nothing back.

I then waited until we got our second projector so I could show some comparison side by side shots of the resolution differences and DLP vs LCD quality.

I got the new LCD XGA projector last week but have not had the chance to get in game shots yet.

Short strokes - End of May?  I am not a fan of doing things half-assed and I'd like it to be as good as I can make it.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Blakey said:
			
		

> So, yes I realise this is a very short throw distance but at least the Toshiba 261 projector you posted about will deal with this.   Can you point me at any which will also do so, which are still in production?




On the Toshiba TLP-261U, there is a refurb unit available for sale at LA Computer Centre for 850.00

Now - if this is simply a used unit with a used bulb - that's a little more than I would want to pay for it; however, if this is a unit that has a brand new bulb in it and a cleaned air filter - that would be worth it.

When you replace a bulb in a projector, you are in many respects GETTING a new projector.  Contrast & brightness are all at "brand new" maximum, so a new bulb on this unit would be well worth looking into for those who are challenged by especially short throw distances in their gaming room setups.

The link to the seller is here.  I know absolutely NOTHING about them other than what a web price search revealed - so poke around a bit and check them out  if it's of interest to you.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

2 words:  Bra Vo!

Very innovative- definitely something worth considering.  I'm sending a link to this thread to my compu-geek gaming buddies.


----------



## WampusCat43

Steel_Wind, I just want to repeat the thanks you've heard from the other members of these boards.  I suspect there's a lot of us lurkers out here following this thread and itching to pull the trigger on one of these setups.  Every little bit of advice you and the other posters give on this subject helps bring us closer to that goal.  Everybody, _muchos gracias_! :wheresthatsombrerosmilie?:


----------



## Blakey

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> On the Toshiba TLP-261U, there is a refurb unit available for sale at LA Computer Centre for 850.00
> 
> Now - if this is simply a used unit with a used bulb - that's a little more than I would want to pay for it; however, if this is a unit that has a brand new bulb in it and a cleaned air filter - that would be worth it.
> 
> When you replace a bulb in a projector, you are in many respects GETTING a new projector. Contrast & brightness are all at "brand new" maximum, so a new bulb on this unit would be well worth looking into for those who are challenged by especially short throw distances in their gaming room setups.
> 
> The link to the seller is here. I know absolutely NOTHING about them other than what a web price search revealed - so poke around a bit and check them out if it's of interest to you.




Thanks for the heads up, however I'm in the UK so I'll really have to see about picking up a projector over here I think.

Very much appreciate your information and help on this subject - as clearly do many people on this list.

I'm still looking at options and if I find what I think might be a suitable projector for my situation (i.e. having only about 4' throw distance), then maybe you could give me your opinion of it?

Thanks heaps
Blakey


----------



## Blakey

*Please review this projector:*

Hi Steel_Wind,

Could you please review the NEC-VT470, given my groups' requirements (specifically a throw distance of about 4').    I have looked through the numbers and it seems perfect to me - but I'd greatly appreciate a second opinion from an expert.

Its quite expensive at £800 (UK sterling), but we might be able to afford that between us.

Thanks!!
Blakey


----------



## Steel_Wind

*Re: NEC VT 470*

Blakey,

If you were getting this unit used, I might be inclined to see the wisdom of the purchase; however, I cannot in all conscience confirm this would be a wise purchase as a new projector at this stage.

The problem is that you would be investing money for a *new* projector – and rather serious coin at that – which has not one outdated technology present in the unit – but _two_:

1. LCD The NEC VT 470 is an LCD projector.  The market has gone to DLP because of that technology’s smaller size, reduced price and much better contrast.  DLP picture quality is simply better than an LCD’s.  There it is.  That does not mean that LCD sucks – but it does mean that all things being equal, you’ll be better off with a DLP.  It’s not a huge issue. (I have both an LCD and a DLP and each has different strengths.)

But I don’t have an 800x600 LCD, and I wouldn’t be buying a new one with those specs at any price for more than 900 USD or so.

2. SVGA: Above all, you are paying money for a *new* projector which has a resolution of only 800x600.  Unless you are buying a used projector, or a brand new projector at the very low end of the cost scale (less than 900 USD), I don’t recommend buying a model which only has SVGA resolution. That’s true even if it is a DLP.  If it’s a LCD – all the more reason not to buy this unit. Given the unit you propose to purchase and its cost, I think it’s a waste of your group’s money, to be honest.

There is an alternative product put out by NEC, the NEC VT 670 which is identical in all respects except it has XGA resolution, not SVGA. The optical and brightness qualities are otherwise identical. It offers all the features of the 470, including a decent size image at 4’ throw and it’s bright, reasonably ok in contrast – but above all – it’s XGA resolution in size at 1024x768.

*VT 470 @ 4’ throw: *
816 pixels per sq. inch at 34” diagonal; 564 pixels per sq. inch at 42” diagonal

*VT 670 @ 4’ throw:*
1316 pixels per sq. inch at 34” diagonal;  924.6 pixels per sq. inch at 42” diagonal

The image on the VT 670 is therefore far clearer and more detailed at max zoom (it’s very worst focus at 4’ ) on a 42” map than the 470 is at its very best focus 34" map created at 4’ throw.  That’s the math.

If you are going to drop money for a brand new projector in the $1500-1700 USD range, you should not, IMO, be dropping it on 2 outdated technologies at the same time. I’d go a touch higher to get the VT 670 and get the additional resolution.  The payoff in picture quality and  pixel density will translate to far improved graphics on the tabletop and will not be out of date should you wish to sell it or use it for Home Theatre.  If you go 800x600 at the price you are quoting, it is my view that you will be sorry that you did.

Now – if you can find the 470 used for 700 USD or less, I’m changing my opinion and I’m all for it.  But not if it’s new – it’s not worth the money.  

Note: with a _brand new bulb_, the refurb 470 below for $790 would be worth it, IMO.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Is duty that *nasty* in the UK?

You can get a VT 470 refurb (new bulb) for $790 USD:  http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=75417&item=5772527311&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

You can get a VT 470 brand new for $1090
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=32863&item=5772578381&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

You can get a VT 670 *factory* refurb (good as new imo) sealed in the box for $1120 USD.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=48654&item=5772277353&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

You can get a brand new VT 670 for $1399
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86709&item=5193265549&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

800 quid should get you a brand spanking new VT670 with shipping and VAT.  Is duty that much a killer?


----------



## Ridley's Cohort

My gaming group just put in an order for a NEC VT670.  I think we are paying ballpark $1300 brand new, $200 rebate not included.  I would let you all know how it turns out.

The NEC VT570 and NEC VT670 have large images at relatively short throw distances, so they are attractive for gaming purposes.  It seems to me that the contrast ratio would be a minor issue with respect to gaming because the ambient light will wash out truly dark darks.  (I would probably not buy either of these machines if I were interested in home movie projection BTW.)   These machines do tend to be on the large and heavy side when compared to  DLPs, but I would consider that a minor issue, too.

The prices of the VT570 and VT670 are coming down right now because new models (VT575 and VT675) will be out soon, so I think they are trying to reduce stock.  NEC had a $200 rebate appear on its web page recently for the VT670.   $100 for the VT570.  I would not be surprised if the rebates were to get larger (but there are risks in waiting...)

VT575 and VT675 look like slightly inferior machines for gaming compared to the older models, so I would not wait for them.


----------



## Blakey

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> If you are going to drop money for a brand new projector in the $1500-1700 USD range, you should not, IMO, be dropping it on 2 outdated technologies at the same time. I’d go a touch higher to get the VT 670 and get the additional resolution. The payoff in picture quality and pixel density will translate to far improved graphics on the tabletop and will not be out of date should you wish to sell it or use it for Home Theatre. If you go 800x600 at the price you are quoting, it is my view that you will be sorry that you did.




Thanks very much for your frank review of my choice.   Very pleased I asked!       I looked at the VT670 and that costs £1200 over here!   That's simply too much money for our group to splash out.

I'm definitely going to look into shipping possibilities.    I just need to find someone willing to send it over here.    Trouble is, if it doesn't turn up or turns up broken it is a lot harder to track down the problem when you are dealing with international shipping and its too much money to shrug off if it goes wrong.

Looks like I'd best start doing the lottery!

Are there any people on this thread who are in the UK and who have bought projectors?   If so what did you get and where did you get it from?

Thanks
Blakey


----------



## realmaster

This is totally awesome  , we have used an overhead projector in our game before but this....THIS is an overhead projector.


----------



## WampusCat43

One of my gamers offered me the use of this one.  Don't think it will cut it.  What's your thoughts?  Thanks!

InFocus LP260 Projector Specifications
Brightness (Lumens) : 700 ANSI 
Contrast: ANSI: 
Full On/Off: 300:1 
Weight: 5.5 lbs. 
Size (inches) (HxWxD) : 2.9 x 7.4 x 11.4 
Throw Dist (feet) :  4.6 - 26.2 
Image Size (inches) : 30.0 - 199.2 

Lens: 
Focus:  Manual 
Zoom: Manual 
Optional Lenses: No 
Digital Zoom: No 
Lens Shift: No  
EDTV/480p:      ** 
SDTV/480i:      ** 
Component Video: Yes 
Video: Yes 
Digital Input: No 
Personal Computers: Yes 

Lamp: 
Type:  120W     
Life:      ** 
Quantity: 1 
Display: 
Type:  0.7" PolySi LCD (3) 
Native: 800x600 Pixels 
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (SVGA)


----------



## Ariel23

How do you feel about playing in the dark?  

Seriously, though, I would have to agree with your assessment. The 800x600 does not help matters.


----------



## tennyson

*The mirror is interesting....*

I had a question (forgive me if the answer has been explained already):

Does projecting the image onto a mirror and then onto the table serve any purpose other than ease of setup?  Does the image brighten/darken because of it?  Is it purely aesthetic?

I was just wondering because I would assume you would lose some illumination by reflecting the image, but the setup looks very cool.  Thanks in advance!


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

tennyson said:
			
		

> I had a question (forgive me if the answer has been explained already):
> 
> Does projecting the image onto a mirror and then onto the table serve any purpose other than ease of setup?  Does the image brighten/darken because of it?  Is it purely aesthetic?
> 
> I was just wondering because I would assume you would lose some illumination by reflecting the image, but the setup looks very cool.  Thanks in advance!




The purpose of the mirror is to increase the effective distance between lens and tabletop, therefore making the projected image larger.  You do lose some light by adding the mirror (as well as increasing the distance).  But sometimes you need the mirror due to lack of adequate headroom.


----------



## tennyson

Well, that makes perfect sense.  Thanks for the quick reply!


----------



## Ridley's Cohort

WampusCat43 said:
			
		

> One of my gamers offered me the use of this one.  Don't think it will cut it.  What's your thoughts?  Thanks!
> 
> InFocus LP260 Projector Specifications
> Brightness (Lumens) : 700 ANSI
> Contrast: ANSI:
> Full On/Off: 300:1
> Weight: 5.5 lbs.
> Size (inches) (HxWxD) : 2.9 x 7.4 x 11.4
> Throw Dist (feet) :  4.6 - 26.2
> Image Size (inches) : 30.0 - 199.2




I bet it would be workable if you have very good control over the lighting conditions.


----------



## Steel_Wind

It will work, but you will need controlled and low level indirect lighting.

If you look at the setup that Jans Carton uses, his projector is about at that light level (and resolution). He's gone for using light strips to illuminate the room. He says his players are all used to it and people can see and read and that IS the test, isn't it?

The resolution - while not ideal at XGA or higher - is very workable. We use 800x600 on our DLP so I think that will be fine.

You mention that one of your players has offered you the use of this projector. If by that you mean it's not costing you anything or that the cost is very low, I would recommend you try it and give it a go under controlled lighting.  If you find the concept is great for your group but the execution just isn't cutting it, at least you'll get familiar with the tech and be able to upgrade with some wisdom and enthusiasm at a later date.

Upshot: Don't look a gift projector in the mouth - even if it's 700 ANSI.


----------



## WampusCat43

Yeah, it's free, essentially.  The guy just bought a new house and a new big-screen TV, so he really doesn't have a place to use the projector any more.  I'll give it a shot (probably have to go the mirror route - the ceiling in the basement is not very high, and the table is.
The lighting shouldn't be a problem.  They rarely need to read anything, and I can put a rheostat on the lamp.

Thanks for the feedback.  That's what makes these boards great!


----------



## Ashy

Steel Wind, first of all, let me say - thanks for the awesome idea and the even better "support" (for lack of a more informal term) on this thread!    Now, I have a couple of "newbie" questions.

1. Can someone give me a bit more insight into the NWN toolset?  Where do you get it from?  Is it free?  Etc...

2. I've got the Tablemapper tool and have played with it a bit, and while it is cool, it seems to have an odd issue.  When you have multiple areas hidden, and go to reveal one of them, they all "blink", so that you get a view of what is behind all of the darkened areas...  Kind of odd.  Are others seeing this as well, or is it just my ignorance of the tool?

Sorry about the total lack of Knowledge (geekdom) in regards to question #1, but I have to stay away from games like NWN or I do silly things like play for weeks on end and forget to do the less important things, like go to work.  

Thanks!  As someone who just incorperated digitially recording his sessions, I think that something like this would be AWESOME to add to our gaming experience!

EDIT: Ignore question #1 - found the answer on page 6.  However, despite the "tutorial" for Tablemapper on page 4, I am still having some issues with getting it to work properly.  If you want, SteelWind, drop me an email at: ashenbach (AT) gmail (DOT) com - thanks again!


----------



## Ariel23

Any word on the projection/gaming guide yet?


----------



## Steel_Wind

If you have not visited DLA's website  lately (or indeed, ever) you might have missed the fact that we've been in a content and tool update release phase during May.

More importantly, we are also in the midst of beta testing our rideable horse system for NWN, tweaking content for BioWare, and otherwise going nuts. And my top scriptor and best 3d artist were both just hired by BioWare which has left a bit of a hole.

In the midst of all of that - we are trying to get our new community forums up (this brings in forums from 3 to 4 other NWN community websites into our own and merges them with DLA's) as well as get new support sub-pages up for - amongst other things - the Digital Projection home page and guide.

So, as it turns out - scripting issues with *invisible henchmen* in NWN and a host of other issues are effecting this a lot. I will get it up and out though and have about 2/3rds of my first draft done. "Soon".

So many things to do - so little time...


----------



## BeerSkunk

*Adjustable Light Stand w/ Boom*

I finally found an adjustable stand with an adjustable arm that might work for the video projector on the go.  I haven't purchased this equipment yet as I just discovered it today.

First, the stand:
Light Stand

Second, the adjustable arm w/ counter-weight:
Boom Arm

The stand is adjustable from ~4.5 ft (1.4m) to 13 ft (3.9m).  The stand itself weighs only 6 lbs (2.7kg) and is strong enough to hold over 25 lbs (11.3kg).

The boom arm is adjustable from 4 ft (1.4m) to 6.9 ft (2.1m) and comes with an 11 lb (4.9kg) counter-weight to offset the weight of the object attached to the end of the arm.

The total cost of the light stand with the boom arm is around $130 USD ($109 EUR).  It's not a cheap solution, but I think we've established that nothing about this setup is cheap. 

Something to consider if you're like me and don't have a permanent location to mount your projector or need to be able to take it with you.


----------



## Boredflak

BeerSkunk said:
			
		

> I finally found an adjustable stand with an adjustable arm that might work for the video projector on the go.  I haven't purchased this equipment yet as I just discovered it today.




If you go for a setup like this be sure to get a weight for the *bottom* of the stand. This will really help prevent it from getting knocked over. Sandbags are the usual method in photo studios.

A background stand might be more portable and more stable. I found quite a few on Ebay for very reasonable prices. I'd use sandbags on a setup like this also.


----------



## SirJalore

I found a solution that works for me on holding the projector up.  Hooks.  These are heavy duty hooks that screw into the sheetrock ceiling.  Not the most elegant solution.  But it works really well.  I'll have some photos of my next gaming session up here after the 16th.  I've run 2 other sessions since I got it set up this way, but keep forgetting the digital camera.  I'll remember this time.


----------



## Boredflak

SirJalore said:
			
		

> I found a solution that works for me on holding the projector up.  Hooks.  These are heavy duty hooks that screw into the sheetrock ceiling.  Not the most elegant solution.  But it works really well.  I'll have some photos of my next gaming session up here after the 16th.  I've run 2 other sessions since I got it set up this way, but keep forgetting the digital camera.  I'll remember this time.




Hooks and chains work really great. That was my first suspension rig. Hooks can be very unobtrusive in a main living area also. Nobody ever notices hooks in the ceiling. Just make sure they're secured well. Unless you're screwing directly into a stud, I'd suggest using a swag hook.


----------



## Toscadero

I'm glad to see that other people are still working on this and offering up solutions.  Just today I brought home a retail clothing fixture that is adjustable floor to ceiling.  I'm going to give this a try.  If it doesn't work, my other two ideas were the tripod w/boom or using hooks.  Since it is being used in the dining room, I don't think I can get away with using hooks, which is a damn shame since that is by far the cheapest route.  But after springing for a projector, what is a few more dollars?

When I do get things up and running I will post pics.  I've had the projector for two months now and have yet to use it gaming.  Watched a lot of movies though.


----------



## Boredflak

Toscadero said:
			
		

> Since it is being used in the dining room, I don't think I can get away with using hooks




I wouldn't rule it out. Lots of people have hooks in their ceilings for hanging plants, lighting fixtures, etc. I bet nobody notices if you put hooks up in your dining room, especially if they are the same color as the ceiling.

If it doesn't work out, the small holes are really easy to patch.


----------



## Toscadero

Boredflak said:
			
		

> I wouldn't rule it out. Lots of people have hooks in their ceilings for hanging plants, lighting fixtures, etc. I bet nobody notices if you put hooks up in your dining room, especially if they are the same color as the ceiling.
> 
> If it doesn't work out, the small holes are really easy to patch.




Tell me about it.  We just finished remodelling the kitchen and dining room.  I can't build cabinets, but I did save money by doing my own lighting changes.  We took out an old boxed lighting fixture and installed can lights.  The old fixture left several good sized holes to patch.  In addition, the original installers drilled their holes wrong to begin with.  The incorrect holes were hidden until the box lighting was removed.  

The hooks would be unobtrusive, but I think this fixture is going to work.  It installs/deinstalls pretty quick.  It is firm and steady and leaves no trace when taken down.  If I get it up and running this weekend I will post pics.  Have to figure out how to hang the projector from the thing.


----------



## Toscadero

Our group had our first session last night with the new set up.  Everyone loved it.  We are using a Dell 1100MP which I got for $699.00.  The projector is hooked to a retail clothing fixture that runs from floor to ceiling with aluminum straps picked up at Home Depot.  For now we are projecting onto a piece of white foam core.  We are going to grid the foam core for better measuring.  I told the guys that the first one to spill salsa or coke on the foam core gets a free ride since we can flip it over.  Next guy springs for a new piece of foam core.

We are currently playing WFRP.  We are using the Paths of the Damned:  Ashes of Middenheim book.  I mapped out a section of Middenheim, the sewers and a Skaven den in a set of caverns for the adventure last night.  The Neverwinter Nights toolset was used for the maps.  I've only played a small part of Neverwinter Nights and lightly experimented with the toolset.  Regardless, the maps came out fine.  The chimneys in the city had smoke pouring out and the sewers and caverns had water dripping sounds, etc.  The players really freaked when they were in the caverns and a rock cave in sound effect went off.  The toolset is really as easy to work with as Steel Wind makes it out to be.  

The set up takes about 10 minutes and the same amount of time for the tear down.  My wife is happy because the projector stores in a cabinet and the fixture goes to the garage until next meeting.  I've attached some pictures.  Only one of the actual foam core with a map as we couldn't figure out how to turn off the flash and it kept ruining our pictures.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Nice output on the Dell 1100mp! And the suspension rig is nice too. Well done.

On the NWN map? Hit F11   That will go full screen. You'll be much happier with the output. If you prefer to mouse it  = its the "Full Screen" option under the view menu.

There is no reason you need the tree menus to the left and right of your battlemap.  The arrow controls can remain on the bottom for you to navigate with.


----------



## MrFilthyIke

Toscadero said:
			
		

> ...




What program are you running in that pic??


----------



## Steel_Wind

MrFilthyIke said:
			
		

> What program are you running in that pic??




That's the NWN toolset - sewer tileset ver #1.


----------



## Toscadero

Thanks for the tip Steel Wind.  We actually figured that one out after we took the pic.  I'm still learning the program.  Which is why I posted how easy it is to use.  It really doesn't take an expert to use it.  It took me awhile to figure out how to turn off the grids and not to show the sound areas too.


----------



## Toscadero

Here are two pictures from this weeks game session.  This is the ground floor plan for Three Feathers Inn, from the WFRP adventure Rough Night At Three Feathers.  Someone else made the map, put it in PDF format and I downloaded from the WFRP site.  It might have been done with Dundjinni, but that is only my guess. :\


----------



## Steel_Wind

Very nice.

The high def monitor 16:9 projection seems a little small on the height measurement though.

Is that as large as you can make it or were you just trying to keep the furniture/scale accurate?

Not sure what you are using as a projection surface - but I highly recommend a large white easel pad of paper with a 1" square grid.  You local Staples/Business Depot should have these pads for about 5$ or so for a pad of 50.

The paper's white surface allows for great reflectivity when used with projectors - and the pre-set 1" grid is a must have. You can mark it up if need be during some combats and rip it off for a clean sheet should the need arise (we tend not to mark ours up - but YMMV).


----------



## Toscadero

I'm using a white piece of foam core.  My image size is 22 x 37 and we've cut the foam core to fit that.  The table is only 41 inches across anyways and my projector is set up to drop the width going across the table.  I haven't really played with making the picture size larger or smaller.   I'm currently at about 5 1/2 feet on the throw distance.  

We could throw the picture down the length of the table except I've got a rather large hanging light fixture that hangs directly over the center of the table.  You can see the edge of the hanging light in one of my first pictures about 5 posts up.  It has 5 fifty watt bulbs but the light from it hasn't interfered with the projected picture.  As it is, we have to slide the table a little towards the kitchen by about six inches to get clearance for the projected picture.  

I've been planning on putting a grid on the foam core.  However, if the pad at staples is near those dimensions, then I might pick one up.  It would be a lot easier than having to draw my own grid and then worrying about the foam core getting damaged.  

We started out with the whole inn and courtyard showing and then zoomed in for scale.  During the adventure I scrolled the picture and used the mouse as a pointer.  

As always, any tips or suggestions are welcome.  This is my first laptop and projector.  I made the decision to make the purchase based on this thread so I figure you owe me Steelwind.   

I cannot stress enough how easy this has been.  I'm looking forward to your projector guide and trying some other mapping systems.  I bought Gridsmith about two to three years ago and hadn't used it much since it sucks up ink to print out color maps.  I'm going to project some maps made with it next week.  

The players love the whole setup.  I've been dropping in sounds and background music during the meetings using the laptop.  When not using a specific map, I drop some artwork down on the table for visual help.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Toscadero said:
			
		

> I cannot stress enough how easy this has been.  I'm looking forward to your projector guide and trying some other mapping systems.




Aww man. I've got that to do - the website to revise, content to fix for BioWare and >NDA'd stuff< to get to WotC.

To top it off - I'm a busy guy with a newborn son who entered the world three days ago!

So if there are folks waiting on a projector for the oft-promised guide first - stop waiting!

Glad it's working out for you though.


----------



## Toscadero

I'm just busting you on the oft mentioned guide.     

Congrats on the new family member.  That's enough to keep you from getting anything else done.  

Thanks for starting the thread and thanks go out to the other people who posted pictures and/or news of their success with this idea.  I've been DM'ing for 25 years and most of my players have been playing for that long.  It is nice to add something to the experience that can still make a bunch of old gamers sit back and say "Damn!  That's cool."


----------



## r4NGe

*Flash software*

I have been working on this Flash app for a couple months (by myself, so be gentle). 

I need to add help features so it's easier to figure out. Just play around with it and email if you have questions.  r4nge@yahoo.com

Here it is 

Some hints on usage: 
- use the numpad numbers to bring up player arrows (they point towards the current player) 
- to roll initiative, open up the arrows of all the players, then roll. 
- when its a players turn, and their arrow is up, click the grid to mark their position 
- open up the fog of war and you'll see a button hanging off the side, slide that up and down to fade in and out the fog.


----------



## Ashy

r4NGe,

It looks pretty darn spiffy, but...er....how do you use it?  Maybe a readme file or something???


----------



## r4NGe

I am slowly but surely building in help features. For now, ya gotta play around till ya figure it out. If there is something you can't figure out, email me.

I'm trying to make this program as simple as possible with all the functionality I want. I don't want it to "take over" the table top experience, just make it easier. Plus, I think it works with  any ruleset you want to use. I'll continue to post here when I make a major update.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty!

That is one interesting and cool setup.  A bit too much for my game but I can see you are having a blast with it.  Game on!


----------



## jodyjohnson

Here's a couple better shots from a encounter with the Slave lords in the abandoned streets of Suderham.

The entire city fit in one map as a moderately large Photoshop file.

The close-up of the slavers shows the normal pixels visible which for us is not an issue.

38"x50" image (around 62" diagonal).  We favor size over resolution just because it decreases the number of times we need to shift the map and move all the figures.  For this fight we ended up shifting the map once since a few stragglers had gone around the block and got between them and the city gate.

Tonight we start ToEE which makes the map scale in Slavers look tiny (for 3.5 sizing rules I doubled the size of the maps to 20'/square which makes fighting large+ creatures more tactical).


----------



## danzig138

I've often thought about trying to save up some extra cash and buy an overhead projector, like they use in schools (or at least they did when I was in school) to show maps on the fly, but that set up of yours is just. . .swank.


----------



## Blakey

Steel_Wind,

Firstly, congrats on the new born!

Been checking my dimensions in the Games Room and I definitely only have 64" from ceiling to table.   I don't wish to extend that throw distance (i.e. buying a lower table) and I don't want to add a mirror to the equation.   Given that limitation, can you recommend me a projector, please?   I'm happy to accept a diagonal image of 38" to 42" sort of range.

I'd like the cheapest possible solution, given those requirements.   

Many thanks
Blakey


----------



## WampusCat43

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> Here's a couple better shots from a encounter with the Slave lords in the abandoned streets of Suderham.
> 
> The entire city fit in one map as a moderately large Photoshop file.
> 
> The close-up of the slavers shows the normal pixels visible which for us is not an issue.
> 
> 38"x50" image (around 62" diagonal).  We favor size over resolution just because it decreases the number of times we need to shift the map and move all the figures.  For this fight we ended up shifting the map once since a few stragglers had gone around the block and got between them and the city gate.
> 
> Tonight we start ToEE which makes the map scale in Slavers look tiny (for 3.5 sizing rules I doubled the size of the maps to 20'/square which makes fighting large+ creatures more tactical).





Wicked nice pix, JJ.  What causes the "fold" that appears in the middle of the map?  The raised circle in the one corner?  Is it the tabletop itself or the image being shown?


----------



## jodyjohnson

WampusCat43 said:
			
		

> Wicked nice pix, JJ.  What causes the "fold" that appears in the middle of the map?  The raised circle in the one corner?  Is it the tabletop itself or the image being shown?




The fold is where the 2 32"x40" sheets of matte board meet.  They are the backside of our old green matte board (with a 1" grid drawn on it).  We just flipped the sheets over.  The grid for the projected maps is from Photoshop.

Some visible lumps are a Legal notepad, a 4" circular matteboard template (Flamestrike IIRC), and theres a larger 12" template as well (Light).  It's one of the nice things about the projector -- items left on the table don't obscure the image.


----------



## Blakey

Had a look at the PocketProjector page on the Mitsubishi site and it looks (to my inexpert eye) to be the exact thing my group is looking for.   It also says it is due out Q4, 2005.    I'm thinking it might be my Christmas pressie to myself.    


So, assuming I eventually get a projector and get it working that really does lead to a rather important question:    how to you actually use it at the table?

I have NWN, and am okay at using the toolset.   I can see this as being perfect for things like random wilderness encounters and campsites and the odd natural cave lair type thing.  Absolutely spot on for this - you can so easily just build a setting in seconds.

But what about published adventures?  I use them most of the time for my main modules.   I have all my modules in PDF format and copy them into DMGenie to use during the game sessions.   But I'm wondering how to deal with the maps for table top use.

My latest idea was to use NWN toolset again, and build the maps on the fly as the players explore them.  In other words, replicate the published maps as closely as I can using the toolset - only laying out sections as the characters explore.   Effectively I'd be doing what I do now - I draw the map on our Tact Tile boards as the characters explore them.   But instead of drawing on the Tact Tiles, I'd be creating the dungeons inside the toolset as they explored.    This way there are no issues with the players spotting secret doors which aren't there (as I'll only add them to the map when they are found), or any other meta-hints gathered from a DMs map.

Anyone tried this approach?   I think this might be a better approach than actually mapping a level out in advance in the toolset, plus this means absolutely zero preparation required on the part of the DM in terms of building a map.

Comments?
Blakey


----------



## Steel_Wind

I think the jury is still out on the Pocket Projector. My expectation is that it will be much too dim to be of practical use - but I will be very happy to be wrong. Current specs on Mitsubishi's site is approx 250 LUX which translates to about 700 ANSI (LUX is a measurement dependent upon surface reflectivity and is a term rarely used when discussing projector units - a sign that they don't want to talk about the brightness of the image AT ALL. Not good.).

700 ANSI? Sorry man - that's too dim. 800 is the bare minimum cut off - and for that you must be playing in a dim basement with led lighting bars. Incandescent or flourescent lights are out. If it was free? Well ok. But shelling out 400 quid for one of these? Nah..

You want 1000 at least - 1200+ ANSI preferably for playing under normal conditions. Mine are 1500 and 1600 respectively and I would not want to go much lower than 1500. 700? No way.

For published adventures, I use NWN for non-detailed areas and Tabletop Mapper for printed maps. TM is great as it allows you to scan or  - in the case of new Dungeon Mag adventures - just use their maps they put oline in the online supplements (resolution is a tad low though).

I'm a big fan of Tabletop Mapper as it suits the purpose to a T.  Google it for the latest version.


----------



## Blakey

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I think the jury is still out on the Pocket Projector. My expectation is that is will be much too dim to be of practical use - but I will be very happy to be wrong.




Noooooooo!!    You can't say that!!        It fits our requirements perfectly - £375!  For a projector wich will throw a 40" image from 3'!!    It's perfect!   




			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> For published adventures, I use NWN for non-detailed areas and Tabletop Mapper for printed maps. TM is great as it allows you to scan or - in the case of new Dungeon Mag adventures - just use their maps they put oline in the online supplements (resolution is a tad low though).
> 
> I'm a big fan of Tabletop Mapper as it suits the purpose to a T. Google it for the latest version.




Hmm, but the trouble with that is that you have to doctor the maps first to take out secret doors and other information which the players shouldn't see.   And you have to prepare the maps previous to play.    By "drawing" them on the fly using the toolset you have zero preparation to do and can effectively replace a dry erase marker with the toolset.    

After all, if you are currently using a dry erase marker (like I am), you don't get a perfect copy of the map in your module when drawn on the board.   So, "drawing" it in NWN toolset would be just as accurate, and far, far , far more visually stunning.

Plus if you have a lazy DM like we are current playing with, or one who doesn't have access to a PC at home, he doesn't have to do ANY prep at all in terms of setting up maps - he can turn up on the day and borrow someone's laptop to draw the maps as we need them.

Blakey


----------



## ShrooMofDooM

I'm 15 and I'll be getting a job hopefully some time this year, and now I know exactly what I'll be spending that hard-earned money on. Totally awesome stuff here. I've been wanting to play miniatures for as long as I have been playing, but I just don't have any income. . .yet.


----------



## WampusCat43

ShrooMofDooM said:
			
		

> I'm 15 and I'll be getting a job hopefully some time this year, and now I know exactly what I'll be spending that hard-earned money on. Totally awesome stuff here. I've been wanting to play miniatures for as long as I have been playing, but I just don't have any income. . .yet.




Nothing like starting at the top!   

And welcome to the boards.


----------



## Scribble

> 700 ANSI? Sorry man - that's too dim. 800 is the bare minimum cut off - and for that you must be playing in a dim basement with led lighting bars. Incandescent or flourescent lights are out. If it was free? Well ok. But shelling out 400 quid for one of these? Nah..





You might be able to squeek out a little more usability if you did rear screen projection.  But it would also be a bit more work, and involve cutting a hole in your game table/mounting a rear projections screen underneath... Then mounting the projector beaming upwards all incased in a box... So probably more trouble then it's worth?    

Nice setup to the original poster.


----------



## ShrooMofDooM

WampusCat43 said:
			
		

> Nothing like starting at the top!
> 
> And welcome to the boards.




Thanks!


----------



## Steel_Wind

Blakey said:
			
		

> Steel_Wind,
> 
> Firstly, congrats on the new born!
> 
> Been checking my dimensions in the Games Room and I definitely only have 64" from ceiling to table.   I don't wish to extend that throw distance (i.e. buying a lower table) and I don't want to add a mirror to the equation.   Given that limitation, can you recommend me a projector, please?   I'm happy to accept a diagonal image of 38" to 42" sort of range.
> 
> I'd like the cheapest possible solution, given those requirements.
> 
> Many thanks
> Blakey




Thanks. The new guy's been a handful - though mostly just to my wife. _Lactation_ is not an available feat for my class 

You wanted cheap.  The BenQ PB2140 is is currently retailing (new) in Canada new for $999-$1050 CDN or thereabouts.

USA - prices are about 799-850 USD. Price in the UK via Amazon is 480.00 quid - delivered.

This is a truly mass marketed projector with a serious street presence in computer stores.  It's got a lot higher penetration in the consumer market than most other projectors.  You can expect that parts and bulbs will be around for a good long while for this one.

It's acceptable for the job. I would have recommended a higher resolution XGA BenQ or Mitsubishi - but you said cost was most important. Otherwise, the PB 6210 (~720 pounds)  or the Mitsubishi XD110U would have been preferable but more expensive.

A few ENWorlders picked up 6210's over the past few months. Perhaps they can chime in with their results other than what's been posted, but so far they've all been very happy campers.

Given the limited throw range - you have limited options.

There are some others which are more or less the same in terms of options.  The Mitsubishi SD110U was just released last month and offers similar performance with a slightly smaller picture. Price on it is a little higher than the BenQ, but it has some other features for HDTV you might prefer.

The IBM E400, again, is a close match. Same price as the SD110U, but slightly smaller picture than the BenQ.

*BenQ PB2140  DLP 800x600 Stats *

Image size at 56" (64" less 8" for projector and cable): *36" to 44"* with Zoom (diagonal).

MSRP (USD) :   Av. Street Price: $800-900 USD, $1000-1100 CDN 
Brightness (Lumens) : 1600 ANSI 
Eco-Mode (Lumens): 1280 ANSI 
Contrast: ANSI: 
      ** 
Full On/Off: 2000:1 
Weight: 4.2 lbs. 
Size (inches) (HxWxD) : 3.4 x 9.4 x 7.1 
Throw Dist (feet) :  3.3 - 32.0 
Image Size (inches) : 24.6 - 292.7 
Lens: Focus: 
 Manual 
Zoom: Manual, 1.20:1 
Optional Lenses: No 
Digital Zoom: No 
Keystone Correction: Digital 
Lens Shift: No 
Compatibility: HDTV: 
 1080i, 720p, 576p  
EDTV/480p: Yes 
SDTV/480i: Yes 
Component Video: Yes 
Video: Yes 
Digital Input: No 
Personal Computers: Yes 
Networking: Wired: 
 No 
Wireless: No 
 Warranty: 3 Years 
Lamp: Type: 
 200W UHP 
Life: 2000 hours 
Eco-Mode Life: 3000 hours 
Quantity: 1 
Display: Type: 
 0.6" DLP (1) 
Color Wheel Segs: 4 
Color Wheel Speed: 2x 
Native: 800x600 Pixels 
Maximum: 1280x1024 Pixels 
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (SVGA) 
Performance:   
H-Sync Range: 20.0 - 88.0kHz 
V-Sync Range: 20 - 100Hz 
Pixel Clock:      ** 
Speakers: 1.0W Mono 
Max Power: 265W 
Voltage: 100V - 240V 
FCC Class: B 
Audible Noise: 36.0 dB 
Eco-Mode: 33.0 dB 
Special: Special Warranty 
Status: Shipping 
First Ship: Dec 2004


----------



## Steel_Wind

Scribble said:
			
		

> You might be able to squeek out a little more usability if you did rear screen projection.  But it would also be a bit more work, and involve cutting a hole in your game table/mounting a rear projections screen underneath... Then mounting the projector beaming upwards all incased in a box... So probably more trouble then it's worth?
> 
> Nice setup to the original poster.




Rear screen projection has its own problems.  The central issue for all gaming applications is minimum throw distance to the projection surface.  Under the table - you've got about 30-34" of throw distance. (Good luck with that) With rear screen, min thrown is almost always the kiss of death for the idea except with a very small number of possible projector units  - almost all of which were LCD based and are no longer in production.

You can eBay emn from time to time - but it's generally not worth the bother.  Plus you've got legs under the table so you can kick the projector,  yadda yadda...

Nah. Not worth it.


----------



## Blakey

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> The BenQ PB2140 is is currently retailing (new) in Canada new for $999-$1050 CDN or thereabouts.  USA - prices are about 799-850 USD. Price in the UK via Amazon is 480.00 quid - delivered.
> 
> This is a truly mass marketed projector with a serious street presence in computer stores. It's got a lot higher penetration in the consumer market than most other projectors. You can expect that parts and bulbs will be around for a good long while for this one.
> 
> It's acceptable for the job. I would have recommended a higher resolution XGA BenQ or Mitsubishi - but you said cost was most important. Otherwise, the PB 6210 (~720 pounds) or the Mitsubishi XD110U would have been preferable but more expensive.
> 
> 
> *BenQ PB2140 DLP 800x600 Stats *
> 
> Image size at 56" (64" less 8" for projector and cable): *36" to 44"* with Zoom (diagonal).




Okay, I've looked through the projectors you suggest and I think the two BenQ's are the options.   I can get the PB2140 for about £480 from Amazon in the UK as you suggest.     I can get the PB6210 from www.projectorpoint.co.uk for £790.   Amazon do it for over £900.

The question is, what advantage will my group really see at the games table if we splash out for the 6210 over the 2140?   Obviously one is XGA and the other SVGA.   So we are talking resolution there.   But is that really that noticeable actually when you play?    One is basically almost twice the cost of the other.   I suspect I can get our group to pay £500 or so for a projector to add to our game set up.  But £800 might be pushing it too far.   And of course I have to add the cost of the mount/stand thingy to the overall cost before I'm done as well.

Your advice in this area is very much appreciated!!!

BTW, I'm off on holiday for two weeks tonight, so will get back to this thread when I return and see what you suggest.   And at that stage I might well be ready to take the plunge at make a purchase!   Wahoo!    

Cheers for all the help
Blakey


----------



## Jupp

I bought a BenQ PE5120 ( http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-PE5120.htm ) some weeks ago for my home cinema setup and I plan to use it for my gaming group as well. The ceiling mount is flexible enough to allow fast detachment so it wont be a big hassle to set it up for a game day. The PE5120 is a WVGA 16:9 projector that is capable of 4:3 as well. Given the throw distance we are talking about here from pojector to the gaming table I do not think that resolution will be a big issue even if you have a resolution of only 800*600. I tested it a bit before mounting it to the ceiling and the image quality is still good enough to have it usable for the gaming table.

IMO at the moment WXGA or XGA projectors are not really usable for me yet since HiDef TV or HiDef DVDs are not that widespread at the moment and its still some years until HDMI TV+DVDs will have gone mainstream. The money saved now with a WVGA is better spent in a good sound system and other stuff.


----------



## Blakey

Just for your info, I have no interest in using my projector for TV use or Home Cinema.  I only wish to use it for gaming.   I already have a cracking telly which is HiDef capable.

So, given a 4'6" throw distance and about a 40" screen size, what are the advantages of XGA over SVGA, and is it really worth paying the extra cash for?

Many thanks 
Blakey


----------



## Jupp

You can run 1024*768 resolution with the projector without having to upscale it because it is its native resolution so your image will be super crisp. VGA PJs only have 800*600 and they will have to upscale the image as soon as the res gets higher. That means a sligh drop in image quality (and the amount of quality is depending on the qaulity of the scaler in the projector)

My advice: Stay with 800*600 and with the upscaling. If your PJ is really only used for the gaming table I wouldnt find an excuse to shell out that much money for an XGA PJ.

Edit: And resolution has nothing to do with throw distance and projected image size (in case you did not know, otherwise just ignore this *g* )


----------



## Blakey

Yeah, I checked out the 2140 and the 6210 and they have the same throw distance and screensize, so the single issue is only resolution.   I'd love to see some pictures of the difference in resolution.

I am now about 90% likely to buy the PB2140, especially as I 'm likely to upgrade the PJ in a year or so, and no doubt technology will have moved on loads by then.

Thanks for your help, Jupp.     

Does anyone reading this have a PB2140 and what are your comments on this projector for this purpose?   And if at all possible, could you test it from a throw distance of 4'6" and tell me what it's like?   I'm going to go back and read the whole thread again, searching for any comments on the PB2140 now.

Also, does anyone with the BenQ PB2140 have it set up with a stand rather than hard fixed - as this is the approach I am going to take.   So, what stands are you using and how are they working out?

Thanks all!

Cheers
Blakey


----------



## Blakey

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I think the jury is still out on the [Mitsubishi] Pocket Projector. My expectation is that it will be much too dim to be of practical use - but I will be very happy to be wrong. Current specs on Mitsubishi's site is approx 250 LUX which translates to about 700 ANSI (LUX is a measurement dependent upon surface reflectivity and is a term rarely used when discussing projector units - a sign that they don't want to talk about the brightness of the image AT ALL. Not good.).
> 
> 700 ANSI? Sorry man - that's too dim. 800 is the bare minimum cut off - and for that you must be playing in a dim basement with led lighting bars. Incandescent or flourescent lights are out. If it was free? Well ok. But shelling out 400 quid for one of these? Nah..
> 
> You want 1000 at least - 1200+ ANSI preferably for playing under normal conditions. Mine are 1500 and 1600 respectively and I would not want to go much lower than 1500. 700? No way.




Just a crazy thought, but do you think this amount of brightness would work if you put this projector in a box, under the table, projecting up onto a surface on the table?  i.e. use it for under table projection, with a custom built table designed with the projector in mind?   Clearly it's a top quality projector with the single issue of brightness - but if you effectively box it in the dark and have it project up from underneath, would this illiminate the problem of brightness?   Or would the fact that the room was bright mean you'd still not be able to see this image?

I suspect I'll stick with the BenQ PB2140 choice, but if you think this might work, I might consider building a custom games table for my games room...

Thanks!
Blakey


----------



## Boredflak

It's my understanding that rear projection generally results in LESS brightness than front projection. There are of course several factors, but I think this is generally the case.

Maybe our resident projector expert (Steel_Wind) could chime in here. 

As for resolution, 800x600 has been fine and dandy for our map projection needs. I'd definitely concentrate on brightness over resolution.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Blakey said:
			
		

> Just a crazy thought, but do you think this amount of brightness would work if you put this projector in a box, under the table, projecting up onto a surface on the table?  i.e. use it for under table projection, with a custom built table designed with the projector in mind?




No. I don't think it will work and I am not persuaded this is a "top quality" projector either. I am persuaded it is a technological item with grave practical engineering problems - so much so that it is a toy in search of a practical application.

It's too dim. Every projector manufacturer in the world leads off about how bright their unit is and how clear their units are.

This one? ANSI? "To be announced."  A major electronics mftr bloody well knows how bright their units are they are about to put into mass production next month.  They have said "needs a dimly lit room", but have not announced the ANSI brightness.  That is not an accident. It is not because they don't know - but because they don't want you to laugh.  They know that people will be seriously unimpressed by it.

This thing is not ready for prime time.  Not yet.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Boredflak said:
			
		

> It's my understanding that rear projection generally results in LESS brightness than front projection. There are of course several factors, but I think this is generally the case.




This is true.


----------



## Steel_Wind

On the issue of SVGA vs XGA... a few points:

1 - In terms of home cinema, there is no comparison. XGA blows SVGA away. I have a projector in both resolutions, a DLP native SVGA and a LCD native XGA. The higher resolution wipes the floor with the SVGA. It's not even close.

2- In terms of gaming applications, the higher resolution produces a much sharper and more detailed picture.  However, in order to really get use out of this - you need to consider what you will be showing with it


If you are showing NWN1 (or in the future, NWN2) layouts, it is definitely worth it and the higher resolution shows up on your tabletop in unmistakable eye-candy. Advantage: XGA

 If you are showing scanned maps, it will show up on your tabletop if you take the time to scan your maps in at 400dpi or so. Advantage: XGA

 If you are showing low resolution scanned maps, the details is not going to be there if you are showing 100-200 dpi maps. Advantage: Draw

 If you are just going to use pre-generated art from Dungeon Magazine available in the online supplements - you are not going to notice much at all. As I have started to run some adventures from Dungeon lately, namely Age of Worms 1: "The Whispering Cairn", I used pics from the online supplement and Tabletop Mapper.   The Dungeon online supplement pics are deceptively attractive at first as they require no work and the numbers have been removed from the maps; however, when you zoom in digitally on the map using Tabletop Mapper, the jpg resolution is MUCH too low to support the level of zoom you will need to get one grid square on the jpg to one inch in size on your tabletop.  You can do it - but it's UGLY. Advantage: Draw

3 - Resale Value: If you are planning on upgrading a projector in the near future, investing in a new SVGA is a little dicey. These things are on the low end of the market and will vanish soon as all moves to XGA or better. Selling a SVGA unit second hand is going to fetch a much lower price as the tech is now obsolete for home cinema.  (Even if you plan to use it for gaming - most prospective purchasers are not).


----------



## Steel_Wind

Jupp said:
			
		

> I bought a BenQ PE5120 ( http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-PE5120.htm ) some weeks ago for my home cinema setup and I plan to use it for my gaming group as well.




Hi ya Jupp. LTNS. 

When you get it up for using with your group - I'd love some pics. I can think of a few areas in Sigil that could be shown off nicely. 

And like magic - .wok issues are no longer a problem


----------



## Jupp

Hey Steel, LTNS too 

I'll try to make pics for sure. Though our group has a longer break until we game again (long holidays for two players) I'll try to come up with something when I test the whole setup.

And yes...yeeehaw! No woks! No shadow issues! Woot!

I am just not sure about what software I should use. It will either be Photoshop, TableTop Mapper or the NWN toolset. Since I have a Wacom Cintiq it would probably be quite easy to work with Photoshop, we'll see.


----------



## Boredflak

Blakey said:
			
		

> Hmm, but the trouble with that is that you have to doctor the maps first to take out secret doors and other information which the players shouldn't see.




Paizo is currently publishing downloadable maps of their adventures that have all DM-only info removed. No editing necessary.


----------



## interwyrm

Mitsubishi's LED DLP Projector that is coming out at the end of this year should be ideal for this sort of project. It is small (hand sized) and uses led's (no $500 lamps, also longer lamp life.)


----------



## Steel_Wind

Boredflak said:
			
		

> Paizo is currently publishing downloadable maps of their adventures that have all DM-only info removed. No editing necessary.




I've started using them Jans (Whispering Cairn) last weekend. 

Nice idea - but I do find the resolution to be too low to bear with zooming to the appropriate scale.


----------



## Steel_Wind

interwyrm said:
			
		

> Mitsubishi's LED DLP Projector that is coming out at the end of this year should be ideal for this sort of project. It is small (hand sized) and uses led's (no $500 lamps, also longer lamp life.)




Uhmm. We know. That's the projector I was ranting about above a half-dozen posts up.

Nice idea - but by all published info they have released - it's too dim.


----------



## Jupp

http://www.chait.net/index.php?p=794

The question is if you really need more than 250 lux if you are working with throw distances of 2 meters or less given the brightness my 1100 ANSI lumens (~400 lumens in real world conditions) projector produces at 2 meters throw distance. I have to turn down brightness and switch over to eco mode to prevent getting  color distortion (too much white, wrong contrast).


----------



## Boredflak

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I've started using them Jans (Whispering Cairn) last weekend.
> 
> Nice idea - but I do find the resolution to be too low to bear with zooming to the appropriate scale.




What resolution are you projecting? We're at about 55 pixels per projected inch (that is 55 pixels per map square). When I rasterize the Paizo PDF at 600dpi via photoshop, I get about 85 pixels per map square. Scale it down, and I'm in business.

Here's the image I rasterized. Does that look like what you're working with.

I certainly wouldn't *complain* if it were higher resolution, but it's totally useable as is. Now I may be singing a different tune if I got a newer, brighter, high-res projector...


----------



## Steel_Wind

Rasterize? I just imported and then...

*looks down and kicks rock*

Ok.    

What exactly should I be doing to get a nice big purty image like that?


----------



## jodyjohnson

Boredflak said:
			
		

> We're at about 55 pixels per projected inch (that is 55 pixels per map square). When I rasterize the Paizo PDF at 600dpi via photoshop, I get about 85 pixels per map square. Scale it down, and I'm in business.




You are using a SVGA?  

At 55/inch that's only a 11"x14.5" image (smaller than an open book).

Even at XGA it's still only 14"x19".

Seems like 40pixels/inch is about the most you would need.  That's still 40/inch projected at XGA for a 19"x25" image (only 95'x125' in scale).


----------



## Boredflak

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> You are using a SVGA?
> 
> At 55/inch that's only a 11"x14.5" image (smaller than an open book).
> 
> Even at XGA it's still only 14"x19".
> 
> Seems like 40pixels/inch is about the most you would need.  That's still 40/inch projected at XGA for a 19"x25" image (only 95'x125' in scale).




You know, my math came up the same. I was just going from my "working" map file. 26 pixels per map square was what I had in my head from memory. Our projected map is about 36 inches across. Maybe I opened a map that was 10 feet per square.


----------



## Boredflak

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Rasterize? I just imported and then...
> 
> *looks down and kicks rock*
> 
> Ok.
> 
> What exactly should I be doing to get a nice big purty image like that?




Just open the file in Photoshop. When you get the "Rasterize Generic PDF Format" dialog box, choose 600 pixels/inch. Make sure the "Anti-aliased" and "Constrain Proportions' checkboxes are checked.


----------



## Jupp

OK, after having the setup ready for testing I switched over to the software side. Programs like Fantasy Grounds, Klooge, Open RPG  et al seem to be the way to go if you have a dual-head setup. You just open the master application and the client application on the same computer and connect them to each other. Then you have the client tool on the projector and the master screen on the notebook monitor. Since most of those online rpg tools seem to have pretty good masking and layering features it looks like this should work out pretty nicely. 

Now my question is only which of those programs I should use. Has anyone of you guys any experience running those applications in a notebook/projector setup? Which one is the easiest to use? I was only able to test Klooge now and there I am able to undock the map window and have onlythat active, thus preventing the players to see the rest of the Klooge GUI. Fantasy Works trial version is 1.01, but the retail one is 1.05 so I don't know if there have been any significant changes that would make it better than Klooge. The rest of the programs I did not test yet, but perhaps someone else has.

Any input? Ideas? Anything?


----------



## sobusTooms

Howdy, just found this thread.  I thought I'd toss up a link to some pictures of what we're doing in Las Vegas (Sin City OGREs - Organization of Gamers and Roleplaying Enthusiasts).

http://www.sincityogres.com

Pretty similar setup to what I've seen here.  The boom is available from amvona.com:
http://www.amvona.com/v7/shop/?page=shop/flypage&view=1&product_id=1826
I got mine off ebay for $100 (+$50 shipping).

The projector is a Panasonic PT-LM1U-C with a custom mount to attach to the boom end.  Of all the projectors I looked at this had a nice short throw distance and sufficient lumens for our needs.  I got mine for about $700 on some online website.  I almost forgot to mention that the weight of the projector was a concern.  This one weighed in at less that 4lbs.

The application we use for display is Macromedia's Flash after the images are initially created in Dundjinni and then edited again in Photoshop for final tweaking.  Macromedia's Flash allows for a "full screen" view without the title bar, and menu bar etc.  Makes for a cleaner/fuller image on the table IMHO.  We programmed an interface for the DM to make it real user friendly.  Point and click to control the map (and audio files).

Also, you need to see (or hear) what we've been doing with the audio for our adventures!  We added some theme music and action sounds that the DM can just click to play.  We call the whole thing our "Tech Enhanced" adventures.  We try to do one a month for the public gamers of our club.  If you go to the website http://www.sincityogres.com and click on the link that says, "click to play audio promo" you'll get the idea of what kind of audio files we're including with the adventure.

Take Care All!  And good luck with your projector projects!

Mike S.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Great stuff - thanks for the post Mike!


----------



## Steel_Wind

I don't know about the two computers set up Jupp.

I guess it will work - seems kinda complicated though.

What we need is a RPG projector specific application.  Tabletop Mapper works well for us - but I admit that it isn't perfect.

Still - I'll take Tabletop Mapper over a 2 computer setup.


----------



## Jupp

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I don't know about the two computers set up Jupp.
> 
> I guess it will work - seems kinda complicated though.
> 
> What we need is a RPG projector specific application.  Tabletop Mapper works well for us - but I admit that it isn't perfect.
> 
> Still - I'll take Tabletop Mapper over a 2 computer setup.





I am not talking two computers, I am talking about one computer with a dual-head setup (two monitors on one computer -> Projector/Notebook screen).

The DM and the client part of Klooge are running on the same computer at the same time. Try it out and you will know what I mean. I tested it yesterday and it works very well. Perhaps I can make some pics over the weekend if there is time.


----------



## ssampier

The only thing I don't like about that setup is the Windows taskbar is visible from the bottom of the overlay. If there was a good way to hide it (such as auto-hide) or make the overlay full-screen, it'd be A+.


----------



## Jupp

if you use a notebook you can the extended display features (like I plan to use). With that setting you do not have a task bar on the projector screen since that one is only displayed on the main screen (the notebook). Otherwise you could use the "Auto-hide" feature in XP to hide the takbar. It will then only be displayed when the pointer touches the lower edge of the screen.


----------



## azhrei_fje

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> What we need is a RPG projector specific application.  Tabletop Mapper works well for us - but I admit that it isn't perfect.
> 
> Still - I'll take Tabletop Mapper over a 2 computer setup.



Your wish is my command. 

I started working on an open source Java-based mapping program, specifically designed to work with a two-screen system with one of them being either a projector or a large flat-screen TV (in other words, a device that can display a large, flat image so that figures can be put on it).

There has been a thread going on the DMGenie web site for a couple months now, check it out.

I'm learning a lot about Java as I write this.  If you check the contents of the downloadable JAR file, you'll find the source is included inside and is licensed under the GPL.   But if you're going to play with the code, please read the design docs first, then drop me a note to let me know.  I want to keep the design of this thing as clean as possible.

I'm going to call it DndMapper.  It'll be similar to TMapper (referred to here many times) but with a regular fog-of-war instead of the 5-ft square blocks that have to be pre-placed by the DM.

Anyway, read the other thread.  Be sure to check out page 6, which is where the mapper actually had something worth demo'ing.  So far, I need to finish the image scaling wizard and the fog-of-war implementation before the program will be usable at the table.  After that, all the bells and whistles will be added:  adding objects to the map, animation, and so on.


----------



## The_Magician

That's very cool. I have a question for those using the NWN Tool set, though. I play online a lot more than I play tabletop, and I have used editors of many crpgs and RTS games to create maps. Age of Mythology is great for outdoor maps, as is Warcraft3 for outdoor combat maps. The editor from Heroes of Might and Magic III can be used to create worldmaps.

Anyway, I was giving NWN's editor a try and found out the grids on the maps are just too big to be considered 5 feet by 5 feet. Is it possible to reduce the size of the grids?


----------



## Steel_Wind

The_Magician said:
			
		

> That's very cool. I have a question for those using the NWN Tool set, though. I play online a lot more than I play tabletop, and I have used editors of many crpgs and RTS games to create maps. Age of Mythology is great for outdoor maps, as is Warcraft3 for outdoor combat maps. The editor from Heroes of Might and Magic III can be used to create worldmaps.
> 
> Anyway, I was giving NWN's editor a try and found out the grids on the maps are just too big to be considered 5 feet by 5 feet. Is it possible to reduce the size of the grids?




No - you cannot reduce the grid in NWN.  You can, however, turn it off from being visible in the toolset and use scaling on the image via Photoshop (or whatever program suits your fancy) to adjust the image for scale.  This works wel for exterior tilsets and I use this all the time and its very convenient.

The same works for interior tiles - but does not work as well when using tilesets which are furnished.  (ie the bed or table ends up looking much too small).

NWN is based on one tile being 10 meters x 10 meters. Not 5 feet by five feet.  The scaling is off by a fator of about 6.3 or so.

When you need to use an interior - use a tileset from NWVault that has had all of the furniture removed from the tile and scale the screen shot(s) optically in photoshop.  There are several tilesets on NWvault which have all the furnishings stripped out of them. They are free to download.

Should you wish to add placeables to your tile at the right scale, NWmax has a scale wizard so that you can increase the standard placeables in game by whatever percentage you want. The basic 3d modeling program (gmax 1.2) is free as is the NWmax modeling scripts that we developed is also free.

While 3d modeling requires skill - the scale wizard does not. Anyone who is able to use the toolset is able to use our scale wizard.

NWmax is available off of our website at www.nwmax.dladventures.com.

We host a support forum for NWmax on our website:  www.dladventures.com

BTW, NWN2 will have scaling built in to the toolset.

Note as well: The DragonShard World Editor, which I am just starting to play with now, works very well for this purpose too.


----------



## Hairfoot

I can't see it.  All I'm getting is photos of a baby.


----------



## The_Magician

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> No - you cannot reduce the grid in NWN.  You can, however, turn it off from being visible in the toolset and use scaling on the image via Photoshop (or whatever program suits your fancy) to adjust the image for scale.  This works wel for exterior tilsets and I use this all the time and its very convenient.
> 
> The same works for interior tiles - but does not work as well when using tilesets which are furnished.  (ie the bed or table ends up looking much too small).
> 
> NWN is based on one tile being 10 meters x 10 meters. Not 5 feet by five feet.  The scaling is off by a fator of about 6.3 or so.
> 
> When you need to use an interior - use a tileset from NWVault that has had all of the furniture removed from the tile and scale the screen shot(s) optically in photoshop.  There are several tilesets on NWvault which have all the furnishings stripped out of them. They are free to download.
> 
> Should you wish to add placeables to your tile at the right scale, NWmax has a scale wizard so that you can increase the standard placeables in game by whatever percentage you want. The basic 3d modeling program (gmax 1.2) is free as is the NWmax modeling scripts that we developed is also free.
> 
> While 3d modeling requires skill - the scale wizard does not. Anyone who is able to use the toolset is able to use our scale wizard.
> 
> NWmax is available off of our website at www.nwmax.dladventures.com.
> 
> We host a support forum for NWmax on our website:  www.dladventures.com
> 
> BTW, NWN2 will have scaling built in to the toolset.
> 
> Note as well: The DragonShard World Editor, which I am just starting to play with now, works very well for this purpose too.





Thanks. I figured I could put my own grids if I capture the screen with the map seen from above, but I dont know how to place a grid if I decide to see the map through different angles. 

As for scaling the objects, I was indeed wondering if I could do that! I guess I could make that work for some more generic maps.

Here is a map I just recently created for my online ravenloft game. Party of six players mounted on horses were running after two vistani that stole some of their itens. Out of a sudden they see the gypsies running back as a stag beetle ranpages through the street after them. I used Age of Mythology to do this one. 

http://www.geocities.com/the_12th_magician/hroth.jpg

Thanks for the tips!


----------



## Steel_Wind

Hairfoot said:
			
		

> I can't see it.  All I'm getting is photos of a baby.




Look up. See the masthead? The word that says "forums"?

We were sneaky in our website design. We decided to hide the link to the forums by forcing people to click on the large word that says "forums".  

Quick jump to them here: www.dladventures.net


----------



## Hairfoot

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Look up. See the masthead? The word that says "forums"?



That's a bit harsh.  Why does the OP talk about this fantastic setup, then link to pictures of a sprog?

I can't see anything in the fora that covers it, either.  I'm obviously missing something, because other visitors have spotted it.


----------



## Aramis Simara

I can't wait to try this at home. Steel_Wind I'm not seeing the pictures you posted on the first page. Do you have another link to them? Also are you the same Steel_Wind that posts on the Dungeon boards?

What is the best surface, in terms of quality of the image, to project the image on? I have read that people are using white boards, white paper and foam core.

Is the do it yourself guide dead or just in hibernation?

I've started playing around with creating maps using the NW toolset. After they are created how do you use them? Can you save them as a image file, like Dundjinni? Or do you just display them using the tool set?


----------



## Steel_Wind

I have to redo the links. Our ISP changed something which busted most of our links on our DLA server (how kind of them - good thing we only pay them a ridiculous amount of money for our server).

Yes. Same Steel_Wind one who posts on Dungeon/ RPG.net/ DLA/Dragonlancefurums, etc..

The guide is still in hibernation. I have three projects on the go with BioWare, a new baby, two campaigns to DM and a law practice.

I'll get to it. I was also hoping that Mitsubishi would release their pocket projector so we could at least all know if it will work or not, but delays after delays seem to have pushed them off of their September release.

I actually pitched a mini-guide/article to Paizo. Someday, they may even let me know


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Aramis Simara said:
			
		

> I can't wait to try this at home. Steel_Wind I'm not seeing the pictures you posted on the first page. Do you have another link to them? Also are you the same Steel_Wind that posts on the Dungeon boards?
> 
> What is the best surface, in terms of quality of the image, to project the image on? I have read that people are using white boards, white paper and foam core.
> 
> Is the do it yourself guide dead or just in hibernation?




Any bright white surface will do.  White paper is fine - even a battlemat would be OK, but it would absorb a little more of the light, which might be an issue depending on the brightness of the projector.  You don't want anything _too_ reflective, cause you might get some glare (this might be an issue with some whiteboards) but really, just about anything white will do.


----------



## Steel_Wind

As I have mentioned here a few times, a pad of extremely large white paper designed for easel presentations from Business/Office Depot/Staples is a recommended projection surface. (The original suggestion for this came from Kid_Charlemagne IIRC.)

A pad of 50 sheets should cost you $10 or less.  Unless you are "mark up the map" fiends, that should last you a year or two.

It's about the right size and it is pre-gridded with 1" squares. As it's paper, you can mark it up if you need to.

The grid means that you don't have to worry about adding a grid to anything you whip up in the NWN toolset or other map program.  It also allows you to adjust the zoom/focus on an image which DOES have a grid already on it quickly to the correct size.


----------



## Aramis Simara

Steel_Wind,

I've started playing around with creating maps using the NW toolset. After they are created how do you use them? Can you save them as a image file? Or do you just display them using the tool set?


----------



## Steel_Wind

You can hit printscreen and then copy paste that portion of the map in tga format into a photoshop window if you like.

Generally I don't do that and I use the toolset itself to show the map on the projector. This allows me to pan and scan and control the zoom level of my map in game.  There are some weathr and other animated texture features which make this convenient as well.


----------



## Blakey

*Wifi Projector:  BenQ CP120*

Steel Wind, any comments on this projector?

http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/benq_cp120_micro-portable_digital_projector.html
http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-CP120.htm

Apart from the price ($2000!) it seems superb.   It will throw an image at a very short range (aparrently 2.6 feet which suits my set up well).   In addition it seems like a high spec projector which significantly is also Wifi enabled.  As my entire Games Room is Wifi enabled, this is a major factor as I could set the projector up in a cage on the ceiling and then use it from anywhere in the room.

Am saving up for a projector for Christmas now as I can't convince the GF that its in any way a worthwhile thing to buy.   Shame!!!    

Blakey


----------



## Steel_Wind

Blakey said:
			
		

> Steel Wind, any comments on this projector?
> 
> http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-CP120.htm




No throw data available yet. So you don't really know what it will do and won't do at your critical distance from tabletop. I would agree with you that the advertised minimum throw of 2.6 is encouraging though.

The wireless 802.1b projectors hitherto have been a total waste of time for gaming purposes.  But wireless "G" may be more helpful in actual use. I would need to try it in real play to see if that is a usable technology for gaming purposes - and for which applicaiton (stills only? - no NWN toolset live? Not so sure if that makes me a happy camper or not).

Other than that...it's an XGA projector which appears to be very light. Actually, that's wrong: _*extremely*_ light.  (2.4 lbs?? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!)  If you are on the go with it, that would make it attractive I suppose. Otherwise? Ok..I guess.

But beyond the hype ...it comes down to throw distance, image size and clarity and its cost vs. the competition.  For that - we need to see the throw data.


----------



## Blakey

Cheers for the quick reply, SW!

The reason I see a Wifi projector as being a good option is because I use a Tablet PC to DM.   This is very handy to just hold at the table and if necessary I can get up and move around the table with it in my hand.   When I want to I just put it down by the side of my chair.   At the end of the day the tablet is very portable - this is one of its super bonus points as a DM.   But likewise it doesn't sit stationary on the table like a desktop or laptop would.   So I am figuring that physicall connecting a projector to my tablet and having a wire running up to the ceiling to the projector cage would be quite annoying, and would get in the way alot.   Hence the Wifi option being very tempting.

I didn't realise you felt the quality of the connection would make this unlikely to work.   

To be honest though, $2000 is way more than I can justify for a projector which will only be used for D&D anyway.   

Thanks for the continued help!
Blakey


----------



## Steel_Wind

Blakey said:
			
		

> Cheers for the quick reply, SW!
> 
> The reason I see a Wifi projector as being a good option is because I use a Tablet PC to DM.
> 
> I didn't realise you felt the quality of the connection would make this unlikely to work.




Well - the question is - work for _what_?

If your plan is to have it show a still image of a map - I have no doubt it will work (and work well). _Fill yer boots_.

If your plan is to stream what amounts to a live video feed at 1024x768 resolution in 24 or 32 bit colour and expect there to be no upsetting delay or artifacts in the projector display of this data...I'm not so sure that's a realistic expectation at all.

Remember - this wireless stuff is designed by BenQs engineers for the display of powerpoint presentations and jpgs for the most part intended for business. 

To BenQs engineeers, it's all about displaying graphs and pie charts and other slides via Powerpoint.

They did not intend for the wireless projector to display dynamic images that show animations or that real-time zoom would be a critical or intended use for the audience. 

So - rest assured that at _some point _ - your data stream WILL get much too large for the 802.1g to handle.  

Where is that point in practical terms? I simply have not used a wireless G projector, so I don't know what it's capable of in practical usage. It might be great - and then again - it might suck.

My math tells me "hmmm - Toolset? Maybe not. Better try this first".


----------



## Blakey

Would you expect to be displaying streaming video and the like onto the tabletop during a D&D session?   (remembering that I only want a projector for D&D, not for use as a telly).

Seems that Wifi really does solve my issue of not having my tablet pc attached to the ceiling via a wire, but at the same time I'd be talking about approx £1000 for a bottom of the range Wifi unit compared to about £500 for a low range USB unit.    £500 for the ability to not use a wire seems a tad excessive.   

Blakey


----------



## Nebulous

Yes, this is a great setup. I've seen the sites before and i'm suitably impressed, although i unfortunately don't game enough to make it a worthwhile investment.

HOWEVER, i did do some experimenting once in Photoshop and found that premade .jpg maps can be sized to 1" scale and probably projected just like NWN tables. For those that have a little skill in Photoshop.  WoTC and other sites have hundreds of free, full color maps to download, and these could be projected easily onto a board. Of course, no exploding fireball animation, unless you're also good with Flash...

You'd need a pretty hi-res file though to start with.

EDIT: the map attached here is a small example. The ones that look REALLY good are atleast 3 MB.


----------



## Aramis Simara

Quick question,

Are there addition items that can be downloaded for the NW toolset?


----------



## Steel_Wind

Aramis Simara said:
			
		

> Quick question,
> 
> Are there addition items that can be downloaded for the NW toolset?




Quick answer: Yes. 100s and 100s of gigabytes of add-ons.  The ones you care about for PnP uses are tilesets and placeables for the most part.

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=hakpaks.List


----------



## DethStruck

For anyone interested I saw what seems like a good deal on a projector.

http://www.stealdeals.net/default.asp

They update the site all the time so it will move down the list. It is a NEC® VT47 LCD Multimedia Projector.

http://www.officedepot.com/textSearch.do?uniqueSearchFlag=true&Ntt=955664&x=39&y=7


----------



## Shades of Green

::drools in envy::


----------



## pntbllr

Zappo said:
			
		

> 2) I use my laptop as a DM screen. I use it in game to view the adventure, the SRD, to keep notes, make rolls and all. I couldn't use to project maps.





Your laptop isn't capable of multitasking?


----------



## Blakey

Okay, I got the go ahead from the GF for buying a projector!  Wahoo!  I am pretty much convinced that the BenQ PB6210 is the one for me.  Its expensive over here, but what the hell, eh?   So, my next issue becomes a practical one.  How am I to mount it?

The GF doesn't want anything which is screwed/bolted into the ceiling (our Games Room also doubles as a spare bedroom at times although it's mostly a Games Room).   She's fine with stuff screwed/bolted into the walls though.

We play on a dining room table, with a standard overhead lamp situated right in the middle of the room - which is a bit of a pain but I can't take it out.

So, in a perfect world I think my solution would be to buy a wall mounted boom arm which would hold the projector.   My idea would be to screw this thing into the wall, at ceiling height.   It would have a swivel arm which would allow the boom arm to swing out from the wall over the table.   It would also have to be telescopic probably so as to allow adjustments according to where the table was.   On the end of this boom arm would be some sort of clamp which could hold the projector totally still - and probably the projector would need to be at a slight angle as the lamp fitting is right in the middle of the room, over the table - so the projector would need to sit as close to the central light as possible, and angle down onto the table.    We do have plenty of side lighting so this central light would not have to be on - so don't worry about heat build up there.

Does anyone know if such a boom arm exists?   I know you can get photo lighting arms which attach to vertical poles which are supported by tripods but that would mean a big piece of kit which people would have to move around and which would have to fit in my not too massive room.   I'd much rather have a wall mounted boom arm which was all above head height and effectively out the way.

Any suggestions?


Also, whilst I'm here, a few people have talked about software.   I have a copy of NBOS' Fractal Mapper 7.0 and I can't recommend it enough.   It has inbuilt layers including a GM's Layer and has a button to pop up a players map on an extended monitor (e.g. a projector) which has the whole map displayed on it appart from those bits on the GMs secret layer.   So simply build your maps with everything on the GMs layer and then click and change layer to General each room and corridor as the PCs arrive at them.  Very easy and the software also allows you to build superb maps in general too!

Cheers
Blakey


----------



## Blakey

Hmmm, I think I am going to have to sweet talk the GF into letting me buy a universal ceiling mount for this projector.  The Unicol Gyrolock GKC looks like the business and can tilt and swivel in all directions, so I think this one should do the trick if mounted pretty much as close to the centre of the room as possible.

This leads me to two more questions (sorry!!):

1.   How much of an angle can you get away with projecting from and still get a square image using keystone correction?   I am looking at a throw distance of 4'6" so how far away from the centre of the games table can I expect to be able to place my projector and not get a corkscrewed image?

2.  What happens if you end up getting a projector with a 4'6" minimum throw distance but mount it just 4' above your table?   Presumably it wont ever come into focus resulting in a completely unworkable situation?   The reason for this question is that the space I have is 64" to work with.  The BenQ PB6210 is 8.5" deep.  So allow 10" for the front of the projector from the ceiling (including 1.5" breathing space) and I have 54" or 4'6" throw distance to the table.   The PB6210 has a 4'6" minimum distance.   Does this mean that if I have my calculations out by say an inch, it will be a complete no show and I won't be able to get it to work??

Sorry for all the questions but I'm not spending £1000 without some serious research and consideration!!   

Cheers
Blakey


----------



## Steel_Wind

The Pocket Projector still seems invisible on store shelves so far.

But if the technology hinted at in thie article can be scaled up for industrial use, it looks like we'll all be seeing things differently in a few years time.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9777070/

As I mentioned earlier in this thread - the technology only gets better.


----------



## Blakey

Blakey said:
			
		

> 1.   How much of an angle can you get away with projecting from and still get a square image using keystone correction?   I am looking at a throw distance of 4'6" so how far away from the centre of the games table can I expect to be able to place my projector and not get a corkscrewed image?
> 
> 2.  What happens if you end up getting a projector with a 4'6" minimum throw distance but mount it just 4' above your table?   Presumably it wont ever come into focus resulting in a completely unworkable situation?   The reason for this question is that the space I have is 64" to work with.  The BenQ PB6210 is 8.5" deep.  So allow 10" for the front of the projector from the ceiling (including 1.5" breathing space) and I have 54" or 4'6" throw distance to the table.   The PB6210 has a 4'6" minimum distance.   Does this mean that if I have my calculations out by say an inch, it will be a complete no show and I won't be able to get it to work??




Steel Wind - any chance of an answer to these questions?   Thanks, mate!    

I have just changed the light fitting in the Games Room to allow a projector to be mounted along side it and I've managed to convince the GF that a ceiling mount would be okay.  So I'm really close to actually buying a projector now.   Just need these questions answering.

Also, I am seriously considering changing the set up in the Games Room from a sit up at the table room to a "snug" in which case we'd be playing at coffee table height and suddenly my problems with throw distance would go away - which would be ace!

Cheers
Blakey


----------



## Blakey

*Got My Projector*

Well, I've gone ahead and taken the plunge.  Bought myself a BenQ PB6210.  I also have the Gyrolock ceiling/wall mount on order which looks like it's going to be the business.

I set the projector up last night, connected it to my tablet pc and stood on a chair, holding the projector in my hands and trying it in various locations about the ceiling to see what I could get away with.    

First thing to note is that although the PB6210 claims to have a minimum throw distance of 4'6" on www.projectorcentral.com, the value in the user manual is actually 1 meter (a little over 3').   So any fears I had about it not having enough space to work are totally unfounded.

Secondly, due to the fact that the image comes out parallel to the bottom of the projector and extends upwards from there, it actually makes more sense to mount the projector offset from the centre of the table by a couple of feet and angle it in a bit.   That extra distance makes all the difference in projected image size on the table.   I don't have it all set up properly yet as I say, but I think I can get an image about 30" x 40" give or take.   I have to use a little keystone correction to get the image square but nothing like as much as I expected to have to use.  All that is on a dining table height, not coffee table height and in a pretty standard bedroom with a normal ceiling height.   This fact possibly opens up this whole approach to others who game sat up at dining room tables.

When the gyrolock turns up (hopefully this weekend), I will see how I can set it up.   I will either have it hanging from the ceiling, or quite possibly have it attached to the wall and extending out to about the same spot - and in both cases angle it down to the table.   I'll have to try a few options before selecting which to go for.

Once it's all set up and running, I'll post some pictures.

I tried out using FM7 (from NBOS) last night and that works like a charm with the built in GM's Screen option.   It means you have to build any dungeon maps you want to use - effectively I trace existing JPG images inside FM7 to build FM7 copies of my dungeon levels.  And you do this in small 30' sections or so.   You place the whole lot on the GM's Secret layer and then as the PCs arrive at places you simply move them to the General layer and they are automatically exposed on the GM's Screen - which is displayed via the projector onto the table top.    I ran it through a test with the projector pointing at the wall and it worked great.   Look forward to using it in anger when the projector is finally properly mounted.

Cheers
Blakey


----------



## Blakey

*Projector Pics*

Gyrolock turned up early so last night we set it up in the Games Room.  Well pleased with the results.

We spent about an hour trying different configurations of projector placement and set ups to get the best image on the table top.   All in all I am very pleased with the end result.  The resultant image on the tabletop is basically square, however it does stretch a little the further away from the projector you go, so the 1" squares on the board are not quite square.   However I really don't think that its all that noticeable and I certainly don't think it will cause any problems during play.

When up and running the projector was quieter than I thought and you couldn't hear it with just me and the guy who helped set it up chatting - so once we have 5+ of us in there, plus music on the Jukebox, plus various laptops humming along we'll not notice it at all I don't think.

I have stuck a big whiteboard on the tabletop.   It fits really well, being slightly larger than the table itself.   This is to allow us to continue to write on the tabletop when needed - I think this is too useful/important to give up.   So we can do that still - and in fact the writeable playing area is now loads bigger than it was using tact tiles.   And of course we can write all over the "map" without it getting in the way of the map image which is useful.   We can also roll rice all over the board again now - we avoided doing so on the tact tiles.

The size of the map image on the tabletop is such that there space all around it for laptops/books to be placed on the board.   And of course if you stick your book on top of the map there is no chance you'll get the map smudged or get pen on your book.  

Images of the fitting and a couple of pics of the resultant maps can be found here:   http://www.rodinia.info/GamesRoom/index.htm

If the map images are blurry thats a function of a bad photographer, not a bad image.   

Will post more images to that site after our all day session tomorrow when the projector will get its first full test.   A whole day from 9am through about 1am with all lighting conditions you could imagine for it to be tested in.

Cheers
Blakey


----------



## wedgeski

Following your progress with interest - looks like a successful first test!


----------



## Blakey

Cheers.

I should point out that we are playing at dining room height on a standard dining room table in a fairly small bedroom (which is now our Games Room).   As you can see from the pics, the projector is mounted on the side wall of the room and happily projects an image down onto the table.   The Gyrolock system for mounting is *superb* and I highly recommend it.

Directly across from the table is a window but should it have been a blank wall, I could also have used the projector as a TV screen from that same mount point, just by swivelling the mount - which is a 2 second job.    I make this point because if anyone plays at dining room table height and has thought about whether you could use the same set up to watch the projector/DVD combo and play D&D - you can.  Definitely.

Cheers
Blakey


----------



## Thanael

Hey what's up with the original pics in the first post? I get only three popups asking me a password to view the pics...


----------



## Aramis Simara

Anyone else having problems viewing Blake's pictures or is it just me?

http://peteblake.fotopic.net/c750739_1.html


----------



## Blakey

Aramis Simara said:
			
		

> Anyone else having problems viewing Blake's pictures or is it just me?
> 
> http://peteblake.fotopic.net/c750739_1.html




Sorry, the pictures got moved.   They are now here:  

http://www.rodinia.info/GamesRoom/index.htm

I have also edited my post above to the new location.

Thanks
Blakey


----------



## r4NGe

We finally took pics of our setup. In case you didnt notice, they have been photoshopped. More pics to come as our first batch had alot of crappy ones.

http://r4nge.com/fm/pics.htm

I have developed our own mapping software with Flash. You can load up maps, use an interactive resizable grid, use a color-coded initiative thingy, draw right on the surface (lines, colors, circles, squares and all that), use fog of war, animated water, etc. it's not the most user friendly so email me if you have questions about the software.


----------



## Michael Morris

Original post editted to prevent the pop-up launch. If necessary email the pics to me and I'll upload them onto the ENWorld server.


----------



## heruca

*See if this is a good solution to your Fog of War needs*

I just posted this on the d20SRD forum, but thought I'd repost it here, since there seems to be so many people interested in using projectors in their RPG gamerooms: 

____________________________________________________ 

Hi there,

I came across the pics of your spectacular gaming setup on http://www.d20srd.org/extras/mapProjection.htm 

I've got some virtual tabletop software in the works that I think you should take a look at (and by "you" I mean anyone that might be reading this that is using a projector in their face-to-face RPG sessions). I think it might be just what you're looking for (certainly easier than using Photoshop layers for reveals!). 

http://www.battlegroundsgames.com/ 

Make sure you go to the "Features" page and read the entry for Fog of War. 

There's also some good discussion about it on the site's forums (sorry, registration required, but it's pretty painless). 

I'd love it if you could post your gaming needs, insights, wish list, etc.. I could use some expert opinions. 

By the way, the software should be out in less than a month.

Thanks!


----------



## Old One

Blakey,

Thanks for sharin' the love...good stuff there.  That looks like an excellent set-up with good dual-use utility.

Heruca,

Thanks for posting the Battlegrounds link...looks pretty interesting, although the devil is always in the details.  I have Fantasygrounds and am fairly happy with it...but am always looking for a new and improved widget.

~ OO


----------



## Steel_Wind

Sorry guys. We re-did our website and it looks like my pics got moved behind a password protected area. I'll fix them.

Edit: Links now fixed.


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist

Hrm, that Battlegrounds software looks interesting.

Hopefully it'll still be around when I'm in a physical and financial situation to put together my game room.

--fje


----------



## heruca

Just wanted to let people know that I've been answering some questions on this thread, as well.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

*::drool::*

Steel_Wind, just a lurker dropping in to say thanks for answering all the questions.  Same to everyone else participating and adding their pictures.  I'm mulling over the possibilities for our gaming group and have found this thread to be an incredible resource.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Glad to hear it.  If and when you do think of plunging in, let us know about your intended purchase.

In terms of new units, Mitsubishi has advised me that they expect to be shipping the Pocket Projector - at last - sometime this month.

No official word yet on the cost, but the rumours as to MSRP on it have now crept up to $899.  In my view -  given the reputed dimness of the unit - it seems too much for it.  But...we'll see.

If it was bright enough to use in normal gaming, it would be ideal. As stated several times here on this thread - it's all about the brightness of the image.  Everything else about the unit suits the gamer's needs to a "T".

I am trying to get ahold of one to review it.  We'll let you all know more when I do know more.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

OK, I'm officially overwhelmed!     

I did a little figuring with how I could mount a projector and not turn my dining room into a permanent gaming zone (and figured it out - huzzah!), but I only have a throw of 5' 6" to work with.  My gaming table is 34" x 60" (but I have been looking at a new table that is larger) and we typically use the whole thing (I use large rolled graph paper for maps) - it seems that with my limited throw distance, I'd be stuck getting to use, at best about 60% of that.  Does anyone have experience with a projector that can project on that gaming space (or larger, preferably) for say under $1,000 US?  

(Not being lazy - just feeling waaaaaaay out of my element using http://www.projectorcentral.com/ and trying to figure it out - from what I can tell, what I'm looking for probably isn't realistic unless I significantly increase either the price or the throw).    

Thanks again!


----------



## Steel_Wind

A 34"x 60" playing surface is a 69" diagonal image.  (though at a standard 4:3 image perspective on that table size, your max image is  a shade under 60").  

For the most part, you need to temper your expectations or get one of a handful of projectors out there with a short throw lens unit.

At a 5'6" measurement from ceiling to surface of the table - you are effectively getting a thow of about 4'8" to 5', depending on your projector's depth and mounting style.  That's not a real happy number.

This is a touch less than average for tabletop gaming throw distance at a _sit down table_.  There are real advantages to playing at coffee table height with a projector - and the extra 12"-18" of throw is the main advantage. (You can increase your throw distacne by using indirect projection through a mirror.)

But that's not the main point. My main point is simpler: 

When you are playing with a projector, you have to remember that your tabletop map scrolls.  When your whole map scrolls digitally in all directions, there generally is no need when depicting a dungeon or cave environment to be projecting beyond a 36"-44" diagonal surface as that is more than sufficient to show the areas of any practical interest to the party. Battle is generally not going to occur at distances greater than 2-3 feet in miniature terms.  

Sometimes when fighting outside, you do want the extra space. With most projectors, you aren't going to get this.  Please remember that for as often as this occurs (which is infrequently) the rest of your table didn't vanish. It's still there. If you play with a 1" square white grid presentation pad as a projection surface on top of anormal battlemat - you can still easily measure off areas outside the main "projected" zone if need be on the battlemat.

Apart from the technical issue of throw distance to the table (which can be a considerable problem with most projectors) the other issue is one of pixel density.  Pixel density issues do not magically go away with a short throw lens. 

The larger you make your image, pixel density decreases and the more blurry and less detailed your projected map gets.  It also reduces the brightness of your image too. The result is that you start chasing your tail the bigger you make the projected image.

If you re-read the thread, you will see that Jody Johnson bought a Hitachi CP-S225WAT  (another comparable option would be the Sony VPL-DS100).

The S225WAT is an older tech using a LCD and SVGA projection for 800x600 resolution.  The contrast is low compared to a modern DLP - but it *does* produce a larger image in a short throw.

Jody's setup "damns the torpedoes" and goes for size over sharpness of picture. He also used a small mirror for indirect projection on to his gaming table.  His pics are thumbnailed on page 9.  His mirror setup is quite ingenious and it gets the job done.

The trade-off with this approach is that when pixel density drops, your image loses detail. For an old skool dungeon map like Jody is showing in his pics - this is not going to be much of an issue. For a NWN or NWN2 map - or one of the more glitzy maps from the new Dungeon Magazine - the image is most _definitely_ not going to be all you want it to be when it's 60" on the diagonal.

That said, it still kicks the crap out of a battlemat or tact-tiles.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

Steel Wind, thanks for the quick and detailed reply!

I actually have about 6' 6" (or a bit more) from table surface to ceiling but with the mounting surface (actually mounting a boom type set-up off the top of my kitchen cabinets, which are extended height like the ceilings), I should get a 5' 6" throw.  Unfortunately going with a lower table probably isn't an option (ran the numbers and it sure makes a big difference...but would be a tough thing to justify for my main dining room, sadly) as is a mirror.  

I'll take another look at the Hitachi CP-S225WAT  (and the Sony) as well as Jody's pictures.  A majority of our combats are outdoor adventures and we really use our table size to its fullest.  It looks like I can either trade off most of our table space for a smaller quality image or keep the space but suffer a projected mat that's of fairly low quality, which might defeat the purpose of going to the projector set-up in the first place, given the cost.  Tough call - it very well might be my expectations aren't realistic, based on your advice on page 9.  

Thanks again!


----------



## DrNilesCrane

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> A 34"x 60" playing surface is a 69" diagonal image.  (though at a standard 4:3 image perspective on that table size, your max image is  a shade under 60").
> 
> For the most part, you need to temper your expectations or get one of a handful of projectors out there with a short throw lens unit.




Sorry to double post - it looks like with the 5' 6" from projector lens to table I have to work with, the projectors generate very similiar sized images (from 24" by 32" with the Opotima EP719 to 27" by 36" with the Mitsubishi XO11U).  You mentioned a "short throw lens unit" is the way to go - is this an option or attachment, or a classification of projector?  

Thanks again, and I hope Dragon accepts your proposal for a buyer's guide!!!


----------



## Steel_Wind

DrNilesCrane said:
			
		

> You mentioned a "short throw lens unit" is the way to go - is this an option or attachment, or a classification of projector?




It is a classification of projector.  On older units, "short throw lens" were possible add-on attachments - but this harkens back to the days when projectors were pro Audio-Visual equipment and not consumer electronics.

Go here to the projector feature search function at Projector Central: http://www.projectorcentral.com/pro...&wul=any&prll=any&prul=any&an=0&dvi=-1&trig=1

There are a few parameters for you to fill in.  You want to search the following fields:

 *Resolution*. Do a few searches - one at SVGA and another at XGA
 *Image Calc*: Put "5" in there. That means the issue you are concerned about is the size of the image at 5' throw
 *Image Diagonal*: Put in a number there between 50 and 60. Try your search with different values. This is the size of the projected image in a diagonal measurement when projecting from the distance you specified under "image calc" (in this case - 5 feet)
 *Brightness*: Lastly, make sure you are looking for units that are at least 1000 ANSI or brighter.

**Note - I have not included contrast as a search parameter - but this value has a large impact on picture quality as well.  Higher the contrast, the better. Modern DLPs are delivering contrast at 2000:1. 500 or lower is going to make you unhappy with picture quality. 300:1 or lower is outside the range of acceptability.


Run your searches based on these paratmeters and look at the models returned.  These would all be "short throw lens" units.

By way of example, the search for XGA+5feet+60inch+1000ANSI yields only three units - all of them LCD. You don't get to a 60 inch image from those units at that focal length unless the lens is set to maximum zoom - but it is theoretically possible. Note, however, that at maximum zoom your image is dim and will probably look _very_ "washed out".  

The same search for a SVGA unit with those specs yields only 2 hits. Ease off on the diagonal range and drop it to 50 - you get more hits. Seeing as you have an extra 6" on the throw distance (you said 5'6") you can make up a bit more size playing with the sliders on the projection calculations to boost your image size.

Play with your search parameters on the diagonal size and look at the way the zoom is coming into play to give you your desired projection size.  In general, you don't want to push the zoom much past one half its maximum.

I really do think that your desired goal of 60" at this throw range needs adjustment.  The biggest issue, however, is pixel density. If you increase to XGA resolution over SVGA -  you will substantially increase picture quality as the pixel density goes up.  As you can see, however, this does come at a higher price.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

Thanks again!  I've been experimenting with projectorcentral most of the day and coming up with about the same conclusions: to really go with this solution, I need to seriously lower my goals/expectations in regard to the size of the image.  

There's definitely a lot to consider & thanks again for your help!!!


----------



## DrNilesCrane

Steel Wind,

Boy, this is becoming an obession!  OK, what do you think about a BenQ PB6240?  I'd probably use it zoomed (looks like I can get a 28" by 37" image at half zoom), which would work well enough with a whiteboard background for any characters that skitter off the image during a fight.  It's XGA, 2700 lumens, and 2000:1 contrast.  I'd just be using it for gaming.  The price is reasonable ($1199 with rebate and free extra lamp).  

Am I missing anything?  Is there a better model out there I should look at?  The Mitsubishi XD110 gives me a slightly larger image, but at less lumens plus no free extra lamp.  

Almost...ready...to...give...it...a...try...!


EDIT:  Spellin' stuff purdy is good.


----------



## Steel_Wind

6240?

Excellent projector. Now you're being reasonable  Fine choice, excellent specs - great for movies too.

$1199 plus a free lamp? Booyeah. Buy it with a smile.

Better projector? Probably there is. For the price? Not really - for a  new one, that's about as good as it gets. (Check Dell for any current specials though).

BenQ have a good chunk of the emerging consumer/computer market.  A lot of these are being sold in local computer stores here in Toronto. Large installed base means lots of bulbs in the future for those too.

BTW - run it in econo mode. 2700 ANSI is ass kickingly bright and may even wash out depending on your projection surface.  Compared to many of the rigs on ebay - that's a nice problem to have 

Note - this is very similar to the 6210. A few ENworlders have picked up the 6210 for gaming and all were extremely pleased to date.  You might want to check earlier on the thread and mail the guys who got the 6210 for their opinions of it.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> 6240?
> 
> Excellent projector. Now you're being reasonable  Fine choice, excellent specs - great for movies too.
> 
> $1199 plus a free lamp? Booyeah. Buy it with a smile.
> 
> Better projector? Probably there is. For the price? Not really - for a  new one, that's about as good as it gets. (Check Dell for any current specials though).
> 
> BenQ have a good chunk of the emerging consumer/computer market.  A lot of these are being sold in local computer stores here in Toronto. Large installed base means lots of bulbs in the future for those too.
> 
> BTW - run it in econo mode. 2700 ANSI is ass kickingly bright and may even wash out depending on your projection surface.  Compared to many of the rigs on ebay - that's a nice problem to have
> 
> Note - this is very similar to the 6210. A few ENworlders have picked up the 6210 for gaming and all were extremely pleased to date.  You might want to check earlier on the thread and mail the guys who got the 6210 for their opinions of it.




Thanks again - I'll probably end up getting a laptop as well so will definitely check out Dell.  With 10 days off for x-mas and New Year's, my hope is to order and install then to give myself plenty of time to experiment with the beast before our campaign kick off in January.

Thanks!!!


----------



## Blakey

*Wifi Option for BenQ*

When I bought my BenQ PB6210 I was surprised to see in the manual that it was compatible with the "BenQ Wireless Pro" option.  I wondered what that was and struggled to find much about it on the internet.  Anyway, it has finally been released - even if only in Canada so far.   Here's a link:   http://www.bytewizecomputers.com/products/7/71/665/8421

I am seriously thinking of buying this and fitting it to my projector (set up shown here:  http://www.rodinia.info/GamesRoom/index.htm).  

At the moment I use a tablet pc to DM at the table.  This is miles more portable than a laptop.  The battery lasts ages (and I have a spare battery so I change the battery once during a standard session - which takes about 30 seconds if that), so I don't need to run it off the mains.  Before the projector came along I didn't have any wires attached to my tablet at all.  Now I have a VGA cable running from it to the projector.  It does make me feel like my movement is restricted loads more than it was.

Seeing as all I display onto the whiteboard is still pictures - maps basically - I can't see any reason why a Wifi connection shouldn't do the trick.   Can anyone else?  I'm not looking to display stunning movies or anything.

Anyone got any comments on this trinket?

Thanks
Blakey


----------



## jodyjohnson

I'd still go with size over detail.

Steel Wind is more of a computer programmer/artist so I understand his desire for quality image.  We don't put that detail on our maps (actually one DM uses Campaign Cartographer and XGA would be a waste for that type of map).

NWN is also one of the darkest platforms to project a map from.  I have a hard time seeing the NWN maps on a monitor.  OTOH NWN also has the best potential for animated elements but that's not something I worry about.  

I'm a video professional so my main concerns were finding a projector that fit this particular application (plus being cheap).  Our projector would make a crappy home theatre projector (that's why it was on ebay) but it is perfect for our application (large image, short throw, moderate brightness).  The gaming concerns were the cost, overall look, and speed of play (larger map = less map resets).

1.  Be careful not to go too bright.  Most of these projectors and their reviews are based on home theatre applications.  They aren't intended to do images from 5' away with a 3'-6' viewing distance.

Most of the newer ones are too bright and you'll have eye strain viewing them from 3' to 6' away.  If the room goes dim when you turn off your projector with normal room lighting, it's too bright.

Our projector was too bright at minimum zoom so we zoomed all the way out plus put it on econo-mode just to get the brightness down to a comfortable level (we also use matte board as our surface with a reflectivity of .8 or lower).

2.  Contrast - the biggest variable here is in the source video.  NWN has poor contrast for this particular application.  That's why we use a photo editor so we can adjust the contrast specifically for projection (+30%).  

Normal room lighting washes out the blacks so you want most of your map towards the lighter end rather than the dark end.  500:1 is more than enough contrast from your projector.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Blakey said:
			
		

> Seeing as all I display onto the whiteboard is still pictures - maps basically - I can't see any reason why a Wifi connection shouldn't do the trick.   Can anyone else?  I'm not looking to display stunning movies or anything.




If all you are using is stills - I see no reason at all why 802.1g won't work. I would not want to mess with 802.1b though - too slow.

For my purposes, seeing as I do use NWN and zoom and rotate and use animated effects "live" in the toolset (and am looking forward to NWN2's toolset very much) the WiFi approach is not an option for me.

Your mileage may vary - and clearly does.

BTW Blakey - can you post a pic of your projector where it is located in relation to the table? A picture from the side/end of the room , as it were, presumably showing the projector mounted on the wall near the ceiling and the tabletop down and off to the side all in the same frame?

I'm interested in your mounting setup and angle you are projecting at and wonder if there are any problems you have encountered. A nice schematic showing the mount/projector and table would be appreciated by many here, I am sure.

Has there been any problems with people getting in the way of the projected image either when sitting or moving around the room during the game?


----------



## Blakey

Hi Steel Wind,

I am at work now, but will try and remember to take a picture tonight of the Games Room from a sort of side on view.   I think I can capture it.    

We have the projector mounted on a side wall, facing virtually straight down, but angled slightly out.  Amazingly enough this projects an image which is centered in the middle of the room.  This is because projectors send their image out from the bottom of the projector and up from there, not out equally in all directions - if that makes sense?

I sit directly under the projector and even when I lean forward I do not find I am getting in the way of the image.   As I use a tablet PC to DM I do not have a laptop on the table in front of me - if I did, that would cast a shadow over the table I think.   So far - we have had the projector for about 4 or 5 sessions I think - we have had no problems and have found it to be an awesome addition to our set up.

I use FM7 from NBOS for my maps.   This generates pretty high quality maps but with no moving images so I suspect that Wifi (it is 801g) would be fine with our set up.  I think I'll probably buy the Wifi adaptor.   I'll let you know how it works out.

I do own NWN and might give that a whirl as well with and without Wifi.   I'm not 100% convinced that I want to use two different maping/visual programs though.   I can deffo see that NWN will be loads better than FM7 at doing random wilderness maps and all the benefits of its improved graphical whizziness might be worth looking into.  I shall have to see!    

Cheers
Blakey


----------



## Blakey

Have updated my Games Room page with a picture which shows the projector on the wall and good indication as to the angle it is working at...

Blakey


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## Steel_Wind

Very nice. That's a helpful shot and will be appreciated by many.


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## DrNilesCrane

Steel Wind,

Slightly projector related question: I'm looking at how to use my laptop in conjuction with a mapping program and am playing around with the Aurora toolset.  I understand that (unfortunately) only one tile set is usable at a time, but I can't seem to figure out how to add new tilesets.  For example, I purchased the "holiday pack" of modules which includes a pirate adventure, thinking this would give me access to some decent naval tile sets, but no such luck.  I've downloaded some hak packs but nothing useful for creating islands, jungles, etc.  I'm hopefully just missing something obvious - can you point me in the right direction?  (I've spent the weekend reading the FAQ, tutorials, and NWN forums and can't seem to make this into a useful tool).

Thanks!


----------



## Steel_Wind

Yup. I can help.

First off - if your specific question is "how do I use the tilesets that came with Pirates of the Sword Coast" the short answer is this:

0 - extract the assets into a new hak
1 - create a new .itp file for all of the tiles 
2- create a new .set file for them as well
3- adjust user .tlk as required.
4 - insert .itp and set into hak and save

The number of people who are able to do this in the community is  about thirty or less.  Creating a full .itp and .set is not trivial work.

For all but the most sophisticated of users - it cannot be done.  This is not an accident. The content which was shipped with PotSC was encrypted and was never intended to be used for building by the end user.

The tilesets developed for PotSC were not rigorously tested in terms of technical design - they were tested with the mod to see that they worked. Due to the way tilesets are designed  not everything in the tilesets is used in a given area. So the stuff in those sets that didn't make it into areas used in PotSC was not thoroughly debugged. (*Ahem*. DLAs stuff that made it into PotSC, however, was rock solid )

All, however, is not lost.  BioWare is releasing the material in PotSC so that it can be used to build with as part of Patch 1.67. Those assets are being debugged by the Live Team now. It will be available for download through the updater sometime in early 2006. When, I can't say (and don't know). Jan/Feb, most likely.

If you are having trouble getting tilesets in use other than from the Premium Downloads and cannot get tilesets working from the Vault - that is because you need to add the hak in use through the custom content tab (look under Edit>module>properties) - save the mod and reload. It should then be visible to build with.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

Steel Wind,

Thanks again!  Bummer about the time frame but better they debug and have it right rather than cause the program to crash.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Update



> *JeuxOnline : * On the forums we can sometimes read that a patch 1.67 is on work. Is it the case? Could you give us more information about it? Moreover, can we hope for other patches for NWN or will it be the last?
> 
> *Rob Bartel :* Patch 1.67 is real and will likely be entering beta in January. It contains a ton of new functionality for our upcoming premium modules and the builder community will be very excited to get their hands on it. With Brian’s arrival, we’ve also been able to touch up all of the art content from Pirates of the Sword Coast and cram that into the patch as well. _The only thing that didn’t fit was the two tilesets, which we’ll release as free hakpaks available from our site. _
> On a related note, there will be a 1.68, a 1.69, and beyond. Thanks to the ongoing success of the Online Store, you’ll be excited to hear that we’re in an excellent position to continue expanding and supporting NWN into the future. We expect the typical rollout to be as follows:
> 1. A new patch will be released, containing new functionality and scripting features.
> 2. A premium module will be released, showcasing that new functionality and introducing new art and audio content.
> 3. A new patch will be released, integrating the art content from the previous premium module and containing new functionality and scripting features for the next. New tilesets will continue to be released as free hakpaks.


----------



## Nyrath

The Toshiba TDP-FF1ADLP projector
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/toshibas-tiny-dlp-projector-142993.php
I'm sure this one is worthless as a game projector, but it is encouraging that the trend to more miniaturization is continuing.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

Just got our BenQ 6240 today (whole gaming group pitched in) and it looks great!  Projects a larger image than I expected (much to my surprise) as well.  I'll be working with one of my players to set up a mounting rig for it over the holidays and will put together a picture of it in action (we take a lot of in game photos anyway) as well as the set-up in January.


----------



## wjptcs

*Map Grid*

Hopefully this will help those with projectors that are looking for a cheap white grid material. I have used one for several years, and you can not beat the price of these.
http://www.speedpress.com/proddetail.asp?prod=112&from=9

Hope this helps someone.


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## Jhez'ek A'Khariz

Me and the guys are thinking about investing in a projector for this absolutely great idea. Mad props to Steel Wind!     

How about this one for size? Acer PD 115 (Price is app. DKK 4 700 which is app. USD 780)

(danish link, see below)
http://www.hifipriser.dk/listprices.asp?ID=175390


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## Steel_Wind

If it's new - ok.  It's SVGA, so the technology is a little older, but brightness is good and image size for a DLP at the throw distances others have been posting with on this thread seems to be in the 38-42" zone.

If this is intended to see action as a home theatre as well, I'd go XGA. For for tabletop projection - this will do the job.

Before you buy, look at XGA units and determine if there are any in your price range. If there are not - go for it.

Please post pics! We lost quite a few links with the Great Crash (mutters and grumbles)


----------



## Jhez'ek A'Khariz

Okay, thanks for the fast and solid answer! I found two other options which both seem to be able to run XGA. Both are Epson EMPs.

http://www.hifipriser.dk/Listprices.asp?ID=95328

http://www.hifipriser.dk/Listprices.asp?ID=89883

What do you think?


----------



## RigaMortus2

Our group did that a couple times.  Except we mounted a mirror to the ceiling and bounced the projector image off the mirror onto the table.  Worked out really well.


----------



## Steel_Wind

The question is not whether they are able to run XGA via autosynch - but if they can do XGA in *native * mode. *Native mode * is indicative of pixel density. And pixel desntiy is what will give you a clear, sharp picture. 

The projectors you are looking at are not XGA - they are SVGA.  SVGA is obsolete in DLP and LCD projectors and, if you can avoid it to get XGA - please do so.

I would not go with either of those Epsons, either way. 

My principal beef with those units is that they are very bulky. They are inconvenient to position over a table, eat a few inches of throw distance, are inconvenient to transport and  - to top it off - the Epson EMP S1H (which I have used before) is very loud.

The EMP TW 10 is also made for home theatre and is too dim at 1000 ANSI. If you were buying it used or getting it for a song - ok. But new? No.

Please look at this unit on the site you pointed me to for the Epsons:

http://www.hifipriser.dk/Listprices.asp?ID=196036

The BenQ MP620 is just the sort of proejector you want if you can afford it.  Several people from ENWorld have picked it up and all of them are very happy with the unit.

The Dell 2400MP is another good candidate.

If these units are just simply way too much for your group and price is the driving factor, I would go with the Acer you pointed to originally before the Epsons.

You can also look at used projectors on ebay if price is the driving factor.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

This topic has hit Gizmodo - a pretty major gadget/tech blog....  Check it out!


----------



## tahsin

I've seen this kind of setup before and it always rocks!


----------



## DrNilesCrane

...since it went bye-bye in the big EN World crash, here's the link to some pictures of my digital projector set-up with pictures from a few early adventures:

http://www.the6elements.com/us/#digital



Does anyone have any suggestions (other than Dundjinni) for good maps for a modern campaign to go with the digital projector - specifically, what could I use instead of NWN that has the same ease / functionality for modern city streets, building interiors, etc. (if anything)?


----------



## Steel_Wind

There is the D20 Modern tilesets for NWN - though they are not plentiful (nor all that good).

Another approach is to use the Modforce mapping system that comes with Freedom Force. That might be decent enough (if cartoony) but FF is available for dirt cheap.

I expect there are other computer game editors for modern games that others could suggest.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

Thanks!  I'll download the Freedom Force demo and see if I can check it out.  I wonder if Grand Theft Auto has a module creator?


----------



## Michael Morris

Working on this now - got the projector, a 5:1 surround sound speaker and a new desk for my computer.  I'll get photographs soon.


----------



## Steel_Wind

What kind of projector?


----------



## Michael Morris

InFocus IN26 model.  Bought the bulb warranty - totaled out at $1200

I ended up mounting the thing on the corner rack my computer uses. This however causes the projector to tremble slightly when I'm typing or using the mouse on the stand. The way I have it set up though I can take the projector out of the cradle and use it to play movies as it was originally intended for 

I'm using a table I caught at Big Lots for $20.  I took the table legs off and set it on the box my printer came in to get it low enough to the ground to get an image that covers my whole hex map. Incidently I bought a new laser printer (I'm spending my WotC check on D&D related toys  - Only appropriate way to spend the money methinks  )


----------



## Steel_Wind

New projector! Post pics man - get em in! 

New Laser printer? Hmm.

On the subject of laser printers, I just wanted to point out that you can grab a Samsung monochrome laser for about $50 after rebate - and it's a *great* printer. I'm really pleased with mine.

The big news over the next 18 months though is *color lasers*. The prices are about to dip south of $300 for  a full color, high resolution laser printer. With refilled cartridges, the consumable cost hits about $.05 to $.07 a page - or approximately twice to thrice that of monochrome laser.

Minolta's Magicolor 2400W color laser is already available for $260 ish if you look around.

High quality, full color laser for cheap? 

That - as they say - changes all the rules.


----------



## ChristianW

*Big Roll of Grid Paper*

Where did you get that awesomely huge roll of grid paper?


----------



## Michael Morris

Chessex is where mine comes from - here's the link to the appropos section of their site.

http://www.chessex.com/mats/Battlemats_&_Megamats.htm


----------



## Michael Morris

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> New projector! Post pics man - get em in!
> 
> New Laser printer? Hmm.
> 
> On the subject of laser printers, I just wanted to point out that you can grab a Samsung monochrome laser for about $50 after rebate - and it's a *great* printer. I'm really pleased with mine.
> 
> The big news over the next 18 months though is *color lasers*. The prices are about to dip south of $300 for  a full color, high resolution laser printer. With refilled cartridges, the consumable cost hits about $.05 to $.07 a page - or approximately twice to thrice that of monochrome laser.
> 
> Minolta's Magicolor 2400W color laser is already available for $260 ish if you look around.
> 
> High quality, full color laser for cheap?
> 
> That - as they say - changes all the rules.



 Mine is $100 after rebate with 3 year warranty.  It's a Lexmark - I have friends who work in that company so I tend to buy their stuff when I can.


----------



## jwfitt

*Multi-functional projector*

Hey Steel Wind (or any other gurus),

Don't want to trouble you, but your projector mapping project really re-ignited my interest in running D&D games.

I'm getting ready to start a new game up and was looking to get a projector that could actually multi-task...
I want a projector for mapping use and other "on-table" displays during our gaming sessions.
But, I also would like it to double as a nice home theater projector.

My brain hurts from the hours of research I've been doing, but alot of people seem to think that too many lumens can be bad for home theater use (which makes sense if the darks are too birght), but at the same time I want to be able to view a movie during the day w/ some ambient light, and I most certainly want to have some low lighting on when we game.

Another problem I haven't really seen mentioned is mounting for this purpose. Have you heard/read anything about very adjustable ceiling mounts that would allow you to project downwards (with aminimal angle), and then re-adjust to say, project on the opposite wall?

I'm looking to spend $2,000-$3,000 and hope to find something that will last me a long time (what would you go for with that budget and my intentions?).

Forever grateful if you could help me out!

Edit: Right now this Epson Cinema 550 is at the top of my list
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Cinema_550.htm
http://www.projectorreviews.com/epson/cinema550/index.asp


----------



## Steel_Wind

I don't think too many lumens is that bad for home theatre. I think that high lumen output projectors are expensive and consumer home theatre is perceived as being desireable at a lower price point.  A lot of this is spin.

The main complaint seems to relate to blacks not being very "black" at high ANSI output on DLP units. Meh. If you are just coming to digital projection, this sort of videophile worry is not going to be YOUR worry.  Really - it isn't.

For a very darkened room viewed at night time, some of the newer projectors have a "movie mode" which dims the light even more to 1000 or a little less. To be honest - I think it's a bit of a crock. I use my XGA projector *mainly* for home theatre use.  It's about 1650 ANSI.  I'd prefer if it was 2200 or so for gaming use.  For movies? It rocks.  Would I want it dimmer for my 100" screen? No. I would not.  I've had an 800 ANSI projector for movies. I thought it sucked after a while. That's my opinion. 

I also use my projector for sports - principally hockey. I like it bright, thanks.

The problem with high lumen output for gaming projectors is when you go high - 2500+ on a short range throw and people are looking at the image on the tabletop.  That can be a little much for the eyes depending on ambient light in the room and your projection surface. (These projectors are not designed to be viewed from a distance of a few feet, generally).  Economode on most projectors solves this.

If you've got 2-3k to spend - you've got a lot for a projector. Probably much more than you need. Post a few things you are looking at and I'm happy to comment on a specific units.

XGA DLP or - at that price - even SXGA is possible.


----------



## jwfitt

I'm truly not sure where to place my focus at this point...

I want it to be a home theater first, before being an awesome D&D tool. Would that mean something with a 16:9 ratio would suit me better...since most of my DVDs are widescreen?

Also, anything geared towards "home theater" use seems to have terrible Lumens ratings. But I've read over & over again how bad of an idea it is to use business-specific projectors for multimedia purposes like movies & games.

I've also read that LCD projectors give you some better controls for adjusting where your projected image shows up like H. and V. Shift, and a much better zoom lens (before needing to resort to keystone correction).
And to watch out for DLPs with slower color wheels.

Such a hard decision....

A few that interested me so far are:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Cinema_550.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-HD72.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Dell-5100MP.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-EzPro_745.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-MP620.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-PB6200.htm

If you had to replace your current projector with a 3k budget what would drive your purchasing decision? Any recommendations?


----------



## jwfitt

I think in terms of a small throw distance (for ceiling to table projection), and overall quality the Epson 550 seems like my best bet...

I always liked the option of optical lens shifting abilites. And a lot of the reviews I've read say Epson is great with their customer service, and very modest on their specs.

Let me know what you think.

Specs:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Cinema_550.htm

Review:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/epson_cinema_550.htm


----------



## joelkimba

bump


----------



## Moon-Lancer

Steel_Wind, do you still have Tabletop mapper on your computer? Tabletop Mappers websites download link is broken. I was wondering if you could post the software on your site or email it. I would be very apreciative.

better yet, do you know of another program that did what tabetop mapper did?l


----------



## Moon-Lancer

sorry to do this, but... bump.


----------



## DonTadow

Now that I"m getting a litle closer to the project financially, I'm trying to justify it in my 07 budget. Is there any other use for the projecter other than gaming. How easy is it to convert it from gaming to home entertainment?


----------



## DonTadow

I'll ask another question for a quick bump as well. 

I'm about halfway to my startup goal for buying hte projector. But after some talking by the folks at Dwarven Forge at Gencon, I'm pondering taking the money i have saved up and buyng a bunc hof their stuff.  What are hte pros and cons of having a projected map and asculpted one.


----------



## Korvax

Con of sculpted maps: storage

Otherwise it's an ideal solution


----------



## DrNilesCrane

One of the issues with the sculpted Dwarven Forge product, while great looking, is its limited use - i.e. how many times are your players going through the same cave (or dungeon)?  While you can rearrange the pieces as needed to fight that repetition somewhat, with a projector you can use any map or image that you find or create, making it a much better long term solution if you run adventures in many different environments such as deserts, jungles, at sea, in a city, etc. and/or want to try a more immersive game by setting the mood with more visuals, many of which are fairly easily attainable with a Google search or through the variety of online fantasy art sites.

An advantage of the Dwarven Forge product is the tactile, 3-D feel of it (especially with miniatures).  I've played using it before (but don't own any of their product) and found that it looked great...although the "wow" factor wore off quickly once that wears off.  Plus you have to wrestle with storage and that your investment is not easily changed (i.e. your dungeon tile set is still a dungeon tile when you're on your first adventure or your 100th adventure unless you keep spending money, where as a projector gives the DM almost infinite options after the initial cost).  Miniatures (or counters) work well with a projector (the projected image doesn't make them hard to see/read at all, which was one of my worries before I bought a projector) - if you don't have a large miniature investment, counters are much cheaper to print as needed and work better with a flat surface (not as well with the Dwarven Forge product).  Another advantage with a projector is that your maps do not need to be static: using Neverwinter Nights, for example, has standard effects for water waves, smoke, fire, etc. that really look great and simulate a 3-D environment.  

I don't think the forge products are a bad solution by any means, but if you have to choose between the two and can afford either, a projector will beat just about anything else dollar for dollar over the long run.  I think it might come down to deciding how important versatility is for you: if that's not a factor (i.e. you just run dungeons, caves, or whatever environment the tiles represent - or don't mind telling your players "the cave is a town now!"), it might be a tougher choice.  

I've used a projector for about 9 months now and the "wow" factor is still there since it's like a whole new set of visuals and maps every week of gaming.  Plus I can improve this as I find more art, new software is released, or make better maps myself while the Dwarven Forge product doesn't physically change and evolve (unless you're spending more money).

DonTadow, you mentioned using the projector for a home theater: I don't do this myself so I can't really comment here, although I've seen it done and experimented with it myself and may go that route next time I move (factor for me was wall space, not quality, and I already had the big screen TV).  As for converting it, it's a matter of moving it (projectors are very portable) and plugging it in...a minute or two to change over from gaming to TV and vice versa.


----------



## D'karr

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I'll ask another question for a quick bump as well.
> 
> I'm about halfway to my startup goal for buying hte projector. But after some talking by the folks at Dwarven Forge at Gencon, I'm pondering taking the money i have saved up and buyng a bunc hof their stuff.  What are hte pros and cons of having a projected map and asculpted one.




I have a ton of Dwarven Forge stuff that I bought at a discount on EBay.  I saw the DF setup at GenCon and was itching to buy some more stuff.  Their new water tiles are gorgeous.

Pros - Visual Appeal.  Nothing really looks as good as a 3D visual depiction of terrain, specially when you take into account terrain with varied elevation.

Cons - Storage is usually my biggest complaint (my wife has a lot to do with that complaint too.)  Setup time is the second biggest but usually the most significant, in terms of impact for gameplay.  For small setups, and I mean small like 20x20 rooms with straight corridors, DF works well.  For big setups with unusual shapes then DF is suboptimal.  Setup of DF can take a lot longer than just drawing the terrain on a Battlemat.  Besides with a projector you can mask areas that have not been explored.  That is usually hard to do with DF.


----------



## DonTadow

Ok, next week I'm looking at purchasing. What to get still remains the question. 

These are several that I am looking at. 

Acer PD 120D - DLP projector - 2000 ANSI lumens - XGA - 1024 x 768 - EY.J2201.012
http://www.buy.com/prod/Acer_PD_120...4_x_768_EY_J2201_012/q/loc/441/202192889.html

BenQ MP620p Digital Projector - DLP - XGA 1024 x 768 - 16.7 Million Colors (24-bit) - 2200 Lumens - Manual Zoom - MP620P
http://www.buy.com/prod/BenQ_MP620p..._16_7_Million_Colors/q/loc/441/202785118.html

ViewSonic PJ656
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=895618

InFocus IN26
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=927555

From what I've read so far I should be ok 
These are the neccessary specs from what i under from reading through the thread
XGA for really clear pics (still not sure HOW neccessary this is. I use a lot of detailed dunjinni and O0ne maps) 
1500:1 contrast to really bring out the blacks
1300+ LUmens so that you dont have to play in the dark 
Throw range of less than 5'

The part I'm stuck on is the rigging. I think the portable boom mike/lighting rig is the best. The contraption that holds the projector onto the rig. How easy is that to make? I'm not the handy man nor have many tools. Is that something that can be bought? That can be made if someone was paid to? 

Also programs, Its been a year since I've seen anyone talk about programs. This new battlegrounds fantasy sounds pretty cool. But I"m also looking at Fantasy Grounds and Klooge. VIsually I like Fantasy Grounds better, but its almost a bit "too" much stuff considering I already have a pretty good content management program. What does the experts recommend on that?


----------



## DonTadow

just curious about another thing. Why choose a projector over say, an lcd screen lay'ed flat on the table, something large say about 32 inches to 36 inches. You can find refurbed ones for 1,000 dollars which is about the price of an projector and the rigging.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

DonTadow said:
			
		

> just curious about another thing. Why choose a projector over say, an lcd screen lay'ed flat on the table, something large say about 32 inches to 36 inches. You can find refurbed ones for 1,000 dollars which is about the price of an projector and the rigging.




2 things come to mind rght away - first, you'll scratch up the LCD screen with minis, etc; you'll run the risk of spilling soda on the screen and shorting it out.  Secondly, you can adjust the size of the image on the projector to match a battlemat very easily so that your scale isn't absolute and unchangeable.


----------



## jodyjohnson

DonTadow said:
			
		

> just curious about another thing. Why choose a projector over say, an lcd screen lay'ed flat on the table, something large say about 32 inches to 36 inches. You can find refurbed ones for 1,000 dollars which is about the price of an projector and the rigging.




http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2273347&Sku=V25-3702

I think in the nearly 2 years since the thread started LCD TVs had come into being a better option for those happy with a roughly 30"-36"" play area.  Higher pixel counts than XGA with a much longer set life.  (at least 20 times longer).

They are flatter than CRTs but still fairly thick.  If we used one we'd probably build a custom table with a cut out to fit the monitor.

As a fan of huge play area it's not even close still.  With a wide-angle presentation projector we have a 64" diagonal image (38"x51") which could be larger if we lowered the 5'x8.5' table.

Considering a standard battle map is maybe 34"x40" and a 52" diagonal while the above LCD is roughly 18"x32" (37") you could run out of space quickly.


I'm not going to account for spoilage and scratches on the screen since you probably want to cover it with clear plastic or glass to prevent damage to the monitor.


----------



## jodyjohnson

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> you can adjust the size of the image on the projector to match a battlemat very easily so that your scale isn't absolute and unchangeable.




To account for this can you build to map to match the absolute resolution (since it doesn't change).  For example a 37" monitor at 1366 x 768 native resolution might have roughly 40 pixels to the inch.  So that's what you make the map at.

Alternately some use Photo/Image programs to display the map which are adjustable rather than adjusting the projector.


Edit:  One other consideration is the weight.  Shuttling a 60# monitor around the house is more risky than moving around your 5-10# projector which is built more for portability.


Here's a monitor that might get at least one dimension of our projection set-up (the length)

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1642848&Tab=2&NoMapp=0

Only $8100 and weighing in at 172#.  No HDMI or HDCP.


----------



## Mean DM

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> Here's a monitor that might get at least one dimension of our projection set-up (the length)
> 
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1642848&Tab=2&NoMapp=0
> 
> Only $8100 and weighing in at 172#.  No HDMI or HDCP.



I just purchased the 50 inch phd9uk for regular TV use and it was a ton cheaper (2300). It is an absolutely gorgeous screen! I am planning on using it for displaying maps once I get through a safe burn in period.  Just one word of caution with plasmas of that size.  I have heard that the glass can break if stored horizontally, especially 50 inch or greater.  IMHO LCDs are a safer bet for this type of use.  They are also less susceptible to burn-in and are brighter.  But if you still want this bad baby, you can get HDMI and DVI boards for both the 8 and 9 UKs for around 140 extra. There is one open slot, and you can pull out another board for a total of 2 HDMIs. 

Cheers,

Mark


----------



## DonTadow

Hmm, it is interestnig, right now the rigging for it is driving me crazy, Trying to figure out how to get this thing installed so that it will point diagnololy at the table and either be inconspicable or portable. 

I'm tempted to use the ceiling mounts and hoist them on the wall, then put the projector at an angle.


----------



## DonTadow

I bought the infocus big x3 and looks good so far. Now i'm looking for a wall mount. I'm leaning on the piemeire universal wall mount. Hopefully it works.


----------



## DonTadow

I'll shoot some pics this friday after the final screws are in. I bought a priemer wall mount i found on sale at wallmart that looks like a spider that attaches to the wall. It is currently on clearance at circuit cities cost 130 

Had ahard time finding a studd in my apartment that wasn't metal. I tested the infocus big 3x (XGA, 1028/724 and only)last night and it works great. Really bright and has the ability to do widescreen which was really beneficial. The maps came out clear and the lighting we used is only slightly dimmer than normal.   599 at CDW. 

Last night we bought 4 sq yard cover for the table at Joann fabrics for 6 bucks. 

We also needed to buy anchors for the screws which cost 2 dollars. One of the players is luckily pretty knowledable of drywall and anchors and helped us shop for it. 

I've been real excited by the battlegrounds: RPG program and it shows up nice off the projector. Though there's no masking function, it does allow players to use light sources so that only part of he map is shown and there's a degree of fading based on the light source. Pretty nifty. I"m using dundjinni to make maps. 

So far I"m pretty happy with the product. I"m under 750 and I once thought I"d at least spend 1500 on it.


----------



## D'karr

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I'll shoot some pics this friday after the final screws are in.
> 
> So far I"m pretty happy with the product. I"m under 750 and I once thought I"d at least spend 1500 on it.




I'd love to see the setup.  Were you planning on using this setup for Home Projection also or only for the game setup?


----------



## heruca

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I've been real excited by the battlegrounds: RPG program and it shows up nice off the projector. Though there's no masking function, it does allow players to use light sources so that only part of he map is shown and there's a degree of fading based on the light source. Pretty nifty.



I'm glad to hear that. I also wanted to let you know that there _is_ a square-based masking/unmasking function in the latest demo, where you can turn each grid square on or off manually, overriding the dynamic light-based reveals. Eventually I will be adding freehand masking/unmasking tools, too.

Since you have a projector and are planning on taking and posting pics of your setup, I was wondering if you could help me out with this.


----------



## DonTadow

heruca said:
			
		

> I'm glad to hear that. I also wanted to let you know that there _is_ a square-based masking/unmasking function in the latest demo, where you can turn each grid square on or off manually, overriding the dynamic light-based reveals. Eventually I will be adding freehand masking/unmasking tools, too.
> 
> Since you have a projector and are planning on taking and posting pics of your setup, I was wondering if you could help me out with this.



Sure, I'll post them there too. So far it looks good on my monitor. By the way, I'm the guy whom you sent a code to yesterday whom had the question about the laptop and main computer. .


----------



## heruca

Cool, thanks.

Heh, there were two people I sent codes to yesterday who had the exact same question, but I know which one you are.


----------



## DonTadow

heruca said:
			
		

> Cool, thanks.
> 
> Heh, there were two people I sent codes to yesterday who had the exact same question, but I know which one you are.



I'm the one at the detroit writer address.


----------



## 3d6+15

Hrm.  I run with a projector (got the idea from SteelWind way back when this thread started, if you dig back in the thread a ways you'll see my post from back then, not sure if my pictures still link.  Some new pics of it in use are here it's worth noting that currently I'm just using scans of maps from the module, I've got Dundjinni but haven't felt up to using it much lately. )

Anyway I discovered FantasyGrounds at GenCon and have been loving it on my projector.  However, Battlegrounds (as well as the DonTadow endorsement of it) has me very intrigued.  The screenshots look very promising, especially with word that some form of masking unmasking will be coming available.  I just may have to check this out!


----------



## heruca

Nice setup you've got there, 3d6+15.


----------



## DonTadow

3d6+15 said:
			
		

> Sorry for the play-by-play here but I'm excited, and it's on topic.
> 
> The projector arrived today around 12:30.  I left work to go move it inside as soon as UPS.COM showed delivered (It was rainy today.)
> 
> At work the rest of the day I was buzzing, cranking out vast quantities of good work due to bundles of little kid with a new toy energy.
> 
> Got home, cracked it out, ran the S-video cable from my Geforce 3 TI200 (if you just cringed, congratulations!) aimed it at the wall about the same throw distance I'll be getting from in my ceiling and....
> 
> (Before you read on, this ends well.  Don't make any judgement about the projector until you get to the end.)
> 
> WHAM.  Disappointment.  What a blurry picture.  I moved it out quite a bit (6-8 feet) and no focusing would bring it into clarity.  Played with settings for awhile, etc.  I began the internal debate.  "Is this good enough, do I accept paying $1000 for junk." etc, etc.
> 
> Suddenly it dawned on me.  The BenQ logo was crystal clear.  The menu was crystal clear.  The problem was my video source!  Woohoo!  I hooked up the 15-pin video cable and hooted for joy!
> 
> What was I thinking?  Eh?  (I know what I was thinking, I was hoping to use the monitor as well as the projector, but it's a very small sacrifice for me.  We DM with laptops and I've got lots of network connections and a WAP so we can use remoting software in lieu of the mouse and keyboard at "MapServ")
> 
> I'm bursting at the seams with excitement for my game on Saturday!
> 
> Anyway thought I'd share.
> 
> Toodles!  Off to Home Depot to find an extension cord and some wire shelving, and then to see if anybody carries 25' 15pin video cables.



A year old quote 3d6, but this helped me out quite a bit. I had the same exact problem when I first hooked mine up. The reviews said svideo was the best so i tried svideo ( wanted the extra monitors. After hooking it up, The pic was abit blurry. Once I switched to the actual data cale voila, worked great.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

I've had good luck with http://www.cablestogo.com/ for cheap, good quality cables.


----------



## DonTadow

The cables snafu has been fixed but now I got one final piece to fit in and I think its all ago. I need a good surface to project it on. THe fabric I bought from Joann Fabric just isn't very reflective of the light. Does anyone use anything special??


----------



## DrNilesCrane

I typically use grid paper so I don't need to worry about projecting a grid and scaling it; plus it allows me to use maps from a lot of different sources (like NWN) without worrying about adding a grid.  In my case, my projector has a bit of a skew due to it's location, so having the grid independent of the image also helps make the image look better (if there's a grid, the skew is a bit more obvious).


----------



## 3d6+15

DonTadow said:
			
		

> A year old quote 3d6, but this helped me out quite a bit. I had the same exact problem when I first hooked mine up. The reviews said svideo was the best so i tried svideo ( wanted the extra monitors. After hooking it up, The pic was abit blurry. Once I switched to the actual data cale voila, worked great.




Glad to be of service.


----------



## talwynor

I've read this thread on and off for a while  now and I've always been temoted to try it (have the projector already)...I just can't find an accessible, easy to setp up way to mount the projector.  droping a mirror or mounting chains will result in my wife killing me.  What's the easiest way to mount the projector to project on a table that wont deface my house?  I've made a half hearted attempt to find a boom, but to no avail...any suggestions?


----------



## DonTadow

talwynor said:
			
		

> I've read this thread on and off for a while  now and I've always been temoted to try it (have the projector already)...I just can't find an accessible, easy to setp up way to mount the projector.  droping a mirror or mounting chains will result in my wife killing me.  What's the easiest way to mount the projector to project on a table that wont deface my house?  I've made a half hearted attempt to find a boom, but to no avail...any suggestions?



I'll take some pictures tonight. The projector is in my main living room and it still looks like a living room (part of me and the gf's agreement). I used a professional wall mount I picked up at circuit city and mounted it about  6 ft off the floor at an angle from the table, much like dr Nile's set up. It doesnt look bad, family have come over during the project and just thought i was mounting a movie projector (which if you buy a good mount you can use it for, the one i got can move and rotate anywhere allowing me to show movies one night and play d and d the next. 

The wires may be distracting, but a good wire protector and some tape can hide those. I toyed with the idea of constructing a moving one out of the boommike stand or a light support, but I don't want to set aside a spot at the table for hte projector. 

There are some notable things so far. 

1. Shadows, at a distance, if you dont get the angle right whomever is on the side of the projector going to cast a shadow. I fixed this by moving my dm area opposite the projector to the side of the projector. This way i know where to sit to avoid casting a shadow. 

2. Allso, the image is not as 100 percent focused as it would be if I dropped it on top, but the diference is not noticable unless you've seen the two side by side. 

Dr. Niles, where in the metro detroit area can i pick up 1 inch graph paper, I've tried blicks in dearborn and they do not carry it.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Dr. Niles, where in the metro detroit area can i pick up 1 inch graph paper, I've tried blicks in dearborn and they do not carry it.




Check stores like Office Depot or Staples - they have flipchart pads with 1" grids, and at a reasonable price.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

If you like the pad of paper, ditto to Kid C.  If you want large rolls of paper, try Holcomb's Know Place - if they don't have it in stock they can special order it for you (it's pretty cheap) or you can order it off their website (easy to fnd via google).


----------



## DonTadow

Thanks niles, I'll probably produce the grids on the computer for the time being. Finally got pics of the setup that look good. 

I ran into a problem with Battlegrounds which hasn't yet been released so I'll use photoshop until it is released just so i can get used to the other functionality of hte program. . I was actually surprised by how cool photoshop was and how easy it was to use. To prepare the maps I used the main image as the background. Then I make another layer I call fog of war that is a hazy black. I use a big brush to paint over the image. Then I make a few more layers. I make a layer for each trap and name the layer after the number of the encounter. I do the same for secret doors. I have the layers toolbar up so all i need to do is click the eye (hide/unhide) button to make things appear. Pretty cool actually. As the party moves through hte dungeon, I use the eraser tool to indicate what they see. I use the eraser tool that resembles an air brush, resize it to the lightsource size, and then push the button over it. This way, I get the hazy image they can see vaguely down the hall, and the good image they see around them. 

This of course made for one of the easiest games to do on the fly in a bit. The party surprised me several times during their actions. Instead of searching for a generic map for their new location or drawing it up on a battlemap, I was able to quickly pop to a mapsource in game, download the map, draw the fog of war, and place it in game in 3 minutes. The group never knew I was winging it.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

I use Photoshop the same way (use it at work and prefer it over what I've tried out there specifically for running adventures).   Nice pictures (but a little shaky/blurry) - it looks like you're getting a really good quality image!   BTW, I liked the map of the two story inn: do you have a link to that image so I can borrow it for an upcoming adventure?


----------



## DonTadow

DrNilesCrane said:
			
		

> I use Photoshop the same way (use it at work and prefer it over what I've tried out there specifically for running adventures).   Nice pictures (but a little shaky/blurry) - it looks like you're getting a really good quality image!   BTW, I liked the map of the two story inn: do you have a link to that image so I can borrow it for an upcoming adventure?



I'll email them to you when I get home (at your website email address) . I really like that inn too, but can't remember where I picked it up. The ease of use with photoshop is just remarkable. Does anyone have any other tricks with the program they use for this? 

Sorry the camera pic didnt come out as well. Looks like my next investment should be a good digital camera.


----------



## DrNilesCrane

Cool, thanks - I'd appreciate it!  

RE: Photoshop - If you create a circle and fade it out (and/or add a gradient effect) you can make some nifty light source effects.

RE: Camera - By chance are you using a Nikon Coolpic?  It's the camera I use and I had the same problem - I make sure to hold the camera on target an extra half second before moving and it took care of that.  Not sure if that's helpful in your case though!


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

talwynor said:
			
		

> I've read this thread on and off for a while  now and I've always been temoted to try it (have the projector already)...I just can't find an accessible, easy to setp up way to mount the projector.  droping a mirror or mounting chains will result in my wife killing me.  What's the easiest way to mount the projector to project on a table that wont deface my house?  I've made a half hearted attempt to find a boom, but to no avail...any suggestions?





I've finally got my own setup and here's what I did.

1) Bought a nice, 30" x 60" Ikea table with a white translucent top. It's frosted from the bottom but the top surface is perfectly smooth. (Total table cost with legs about $100.)

2) Bought a 20" x 24" mirror at home depot and mounted it to a piece of particle board, same size. (Actually it's a hinged setup on two boards, but you get the idea).

3) Put the projector on the floor (near the DM's feet) and project onto the mirror, which is angled to project the image up onto the bottom of the table.


PRO: 

a) Easy setup and takedown, even playing in my living room. (No angry wife.)

b) Projecting the image onto the bottom of the tabletop means nobody casts shadows onto your map leaning over the table. It's a very clean setup.

c) The glass tabletop from Ikea "accepts" dry erase markers. The players can mark on the map; they even use it as a scratch pad to keep track of their BAB with buffs and such. It would probably also work with wet markers (overhead pens) but I haven't tested it since the dry erase are working just fine.

CON:

a) Maximum "screen size" on my setup is about 24"x24". This is a function of throw distance. I could improve it by raising the table top (Ikea legs are adjustable and I could even buy some bed risers...) but the size of the mirror is a "hard" boundary so I can't really move the projector to increase throw.

b) Keystoning can be an issue. On a 24x24 map it's actually maybe 24x22. It's very, very slightly trapezoidal even with the keystoning cranked all the way. It's very very slight and the player have never noticed but it bugs me that it isn't perfect.

c) Projector on the floor. Mirror on the floor. Players' feet and the dog on the floor... 


I make all my maps using e-Adventure Tiles from Skeleton Key games. I export the tiles and put the maps together in Photoshop, placing the different rooms on different layers to reveal them as the players explore.

I have to remember to take some pics. We are playing tomorrow.


----------



## DonTadow

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I've finally got my own setup and here's what I did.
> 
> 1) Bought a nice, 30" x 60" Ikea table with a white translucent top. It's frosted from the bottom but the top surface is perfectly smooth. (Total table cost with legs about $100.)
> 
> 2) Bought a 20" x 24" mirror at home depot and mounted it to a piece of particle board, same size. (Actually it's a hinged setup on two boards, but you get the idea).
> 
> 3) Put the projector on the floor (near the DM's feet) and project onto the mirror, which is angled to project the image up onto the bottom of the table.
> 
> 
> PRO:
> 
> a) Easy setup and takedown, even playing in my living room. (No angry wife.)
> 
> b) Projecting the image onto the bottom of the tabletop means nobody casts shadows onto your map leaning over the table. It's a very clean setup.
> 
> c) The glass tabletop from Ikea "accepts" dry erase markers. The players can mark on the map; they even use it as a scratch pad to keep track of their BAB with buffs and such. It would probably also work with wet markers (overhead pens) but I haven't tested it since the dry erase are working just fine.
> 
> CON:
> 
> a) Maximum "screen size" on my setup is about 24"x24". This is a function of throw distance. I could improve it by raising the table top (Ikea legs are adjustable and I could even buy some bed risers...) but the size of the mirror is a "hard" boundary so I can't really move the projector to increase throw.
> 
> b) Keystoning can be an issue. On a 24x24 map it's actually maybe 24x22. It's very, very slightly trapezoidal even with the keystoning cranked all the way. It's very very slight and the player have never noticed but it bugs me that it isn't perfect.
> 
> c) Projector on the floor. Mirror on the floor. Players' feet and the dog on the floor...
> 
> 
> I make all my maps using e-Adventure Tiles from Skeleton Key games. I export the tiles and put the maps together in Photoshop, placing the different rooms on different layers to reveal them as the players explore.
> 
> I have to remember to take some pics. We are playing tomorrow.




My big problem's been keystoning too but its hard to get away from that. If you like Skeleton Key games stuff you might want to try o0nes There artwork is a tad more realistic though it does cost a dollar or too more. IMO it's a much better buy.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

DonTadow said:
			
		

> If you like Skeleton Key games stuff you might want to try o0nes There artwork is a tad more realistic though it does cost a dollar or too more. IMO it's a much better buy.




I actually like the sort of cartoony look of Ed's maps. Maybe cartoony isn't the right word, but they have a sort of very colorful and shiny, almost plasticene "pop" to them. Hard to describe.

I forgot to mention, I have the BenQ projector. Paid about $1000 for it, and got a $400 replacement lamp for free.


----------



## Ridley's Cohort

I will have to dig up pictures of our set up.

We have a frame built from standard PVC irrigation piping.  It looks a little odd.  And it sways a little if you bump the table.  But it is extremely portable and easy to set up.

We thought it was going to be a temporarily measure.  But we like it enough that we probably will not change it.


----------



## DonTadow

DrNilesCrane said:
			
		

> Cool, thanks - I'd appreciate it!
> 
> RE: Photoshop - If you create a circle and fade it out (and/or add a gradient effect) you can make some nifty light source effects.



Just to make sure I understand. Create a black circle in another layer and fade it out right? maybe add gradient, I'll practice it.


----------



## DonTadow

ok today at work i was searchingfor some more photoshop ideas when i came upon this program WOW!

Thats pretty much all I can say. Does exactly what photoshop does with one exception, I can have my own private view. Plus this thing has spell effects, numbers and resizes tokens automatically . Also has lightsource capable. I can't believe its open source. I"m really trying to find a downsize to this. 

http://rptools.net/doku.php?id=home


----------



## Hawkshere

I've been watching this thread since it started in days of yore. I've considered this setup something that would have to wait until I upgraded from my condo to a large enough house to have a dedicated game room. However, a number of you have obviously been successful using angled wall or shelf mounted projection schemes, which has me rethinking my options.

A direct overhead solution simply won't work in my living room; I live in a nice but small 700 sq. ft. condo with a 15'x17' living room. This is where my gaming takes place, couch-style. When I use minis and a battlemat, I setup a card table in the center, or more often, just set it down in the floor, where everyone can see it from the casual seating.

Any projector arrangment I use here would be:

Strictly setup & takedown in nature.
Low footprint storage when not in use.
A little googling turned this up:
http://www.airdesks.com/projectorstand.asp

At 7' tall, I ought to be able to place this away from the seating, angle this thing almost straight down, get plently of throw distance to a floor (or coffee table) target, and still have less keystoning to correct than a wall mounted setup. Has anyone else tried something this?


----------



## DonTadow

Hawkshere said:
			
		

> I've been watching this thread since it started in days of yore. I've considered this setup something that would have to wait until I upgraded from my condo to a large enough house to have a dedicated game room. However, a number of you have obviously been successful using angled wall or shelf mounted projection schemes, which has me rethinking my options.
> 
> A direct overhead solution simply won't work in my living room; I live in a nice but small 700 sq. ft. condo with a 15'x17' living room. This is where my gaming takes place, couch-style. When I use minis and a battlemat, I setup a card table in the center, or more often, just set it down in the floor, where everyone can see it from the casual seating.
> 
> Any projector arrangment I use here would be:
> 
> Strictly setup & takedown in nature.
> Low footprint storage when not in use.
> A little googling turned this up:
> http://www.airdesks.com/projectorstand.asp
> 
> At 7' tall, I ought to be able to place this away from the seating, angle this thing almost straight down, get plently of throw distance to a floor (or coffee table) target, and still have less keystoning to correct than a wall mounted setup. Has anyone else tried something this?



This looks ,great. I swear I kept looking for something like this but no luck. I am a little leary about the patent pending note though, other than that it looks like it will do the job.

I have an apartment probably a little smaller than yours and we purchased a wall mount that is not too distracting. We double it as the game projector and for movies and the big sunday game and/or race. 

It all depends on presentation. The living room is our game room. But its also our living room six days a week. When we get done gaming we remove the blackout cloth from the table and angle the projector towards the wall.


----------



## Hawkshere

I didn't even see the patpend, but I usually ignore that stuff. People will try to patent _anything_. The way I saw it, if were much cheaper, I'd be suspicious of its contruction, but if it was much more, I'd be inclined to buld something from scratch. As it is, $200 is about what I'd expect to pay for a decent 7' stand, and the storage footprint is ideal (must fit in a small coat closet--with the coats, heh).

I don't know if Steel_Wind is still reading this thread, but the projectors discussed previously are now legacy models. The current attractive price/feature model from BenQ these days looks to be this:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-MP620p.htm

..which can be had for $750.


----------



## dorpond

Wow, this is great! 

I am glad to see that the game is actually being brought to a new level using electronic tools. Being a fellow gamer myself, I am always looking for better ways of making gaming better for the players and many of you have brought some very good ideas to surface here.

I am one of the team members over at rptools and I hope many of you have the opportunity to check out some of the tools we are making for the gaming community (and making for us too of course  ). The tools that we develop are *free* and will remain free. We have tools that can help you keep track of initiative, roll dice, create monster/player tokens and my favorite - Maptool which allows you to do the very thing this thread is talking about and that is being able to play your games electronically across the world, project them, play on laptops or play on your High Def. television (like I do). Maptool is a virtual desktop application where you can load up your maps and play on them electronically.

Anyway, stop by and check us out! Tell us ways we can make the tools better for your gaming needs!

Dorpond
www.rptools.net


----------



## GreatLemur

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> c) Projector on the floor. Mirror on the floor. Players' feet and the dog on the floor...



Yeah, projecting _up_ seems like a much better setup than projecting _down_, but this factor definitely worries me.

Ideally, I'd like to get a projector actually _built into_ a table, but the most advanced carpentry project I've ever managed was a two-story rat condo.  Maybe if I could just stick the projecter under a translucent table, and just build some kind of box thing around it to both hold it in place and protect it...

Or would that be too close to the tabletop?  Is that the reason you had to use a mirror?


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Or would that be too close to the tabletop?  Is that the reason you had to use a mirror?




The mirror is to get a longer "throw distance" - projectors have a minimum focal distance and getting too close to the surface you're projecting onto will result in a small image at best, and possibly a challenge in focusing (if its really too close).  The further away you can get the projector, the better.


----------



## DonTadow

dorpond said:
			
		

> Wow, this is great!
> 
> I am glad to see that the game is actually being brought to a new level using electronic tools. Being a fellow gamer myself, I am always looking for better ways of making gaming better for the players and many of you have brought some very good ideas to surface here.
> 
> I am one of the team members over at rptools and I hope many of you have the opportunity to check out some of the tools we are making for the gaming community (and making for us too of course  ). The tools that we develop are *free* and will remain free. We have tools that can help you keep track of initiative, roll dice, create monster/player tokens and my favorite - Maptool which allows you to do the very thing this thread is talking about and that is being able to play your games electronically across the world, project them, play on laptops or play on your High Def. television (like I do). Maptool is a virtual desktop application where you can load up your maps and play on them electronically.
> 
> Anyway, stop by and check us out! Tell us ways we can make the tools better for your gaming needs!
> 
> Dorpond
> www.rptools.net



I know I've endorsed this product in an earlier post but it can't be said enough how good it is. Not only do I make Dundjinni maps and use them in the program, I can now buy the great PDF map products of O0nes and Skeleton Keys, use adobe to export out all the images and then use the images inside of maptools to make very creative looking maps out on the fly. I say this because a lot of peoples main deterrent about doing the projector is that they feel they will have to overly prepare for games or that they won't be able to do things on the fly. 

Maptools has a great fog of war system, some really handy drawing tools and a click and drag interface which allows you to dragon maps, icons, and images onto different layers of the battlemap. 

Here are some of the maps and encounters I've made completely on the fly in less than five minutes. I'm working on getting some clear in game images. 

deleted to make page fit right. got to resize pics


----------



## BladeSmith

*More cool technology*

For those of you who have some money to spend.  Ok, probably not, but it's fun to contemplate the idea anyway.  Check out this computerized table.  It's a gigantic touch screen table.

http://www.touchtable.com/site/


----------



## dorpond

Glad you love Maptool Dontadow! yeah, I really love the way you use the tool. I find there are so many way to approach making maps or encounters in Maptool - your method here is awesome for people who don't have the time to draw out maps or are in need a really quick encounter on the spot during game. Thanks for showing us the light!

Maptool tip: If you go into the properties of your floor stamps Dontadow and change the "shape" setting to "Top Down", the yellow facing arrows will go away. Oh Yeah!


----------



## GreatLemur

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> The mirror is to get a longer "throw distance" - projectors have a minimum focal distance and getting too close to the surface you're projecting onto will result in a small image at best, and possibly a challenge in focusing (if its really too close).  The further away you can get the projector, the better.



Ah, dang; that's what I was afraid of.  I imagine the problem could be fixed with some kind of (expensive) specialty lens, if only these rigs actually used modular lenses.  Hm.  So it's back to ceiling hooks, stands, and mirrors.  Ah, well.  I ain't got the room for this kind of thing--or a serious enough gaming group--anyway.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Ah, dang; that's what I was afraid of.  I imagine the problem could be fixed with some kind of (expensive) specialty lens, if only these rigs actually used modular lenses.




You can often buy wide angle lenses - but beware, they are quite a bit more expensive than regular lenses.  I've got an Epson wide-angle lens for one of the projectors here at work that runs $2700 list.  That probably won't help you much...  

BTW, DonTadow - not sure what resolution you're running, but your pics (while nice) are causing about 25% of the page to run off the right hand side of the screen here.  Can you resize them?


----------



## sozin

> A little googling turned this up:
> http://www.airdesks.com/projectorstand.asp
> 
> At 7' tall, I ought to be able to place this away from the seating, angle this thing almost straight down, get plently of throw distance to a floor (or coffee table) target, and still have less keystoning to correct than a wall mounted setup. Has anyone else tried something this?




short answer -- no.  it only supports a 45 degree downwards tilt.  you probably want 80-85 degree tilt.

sozin


----------



## JDragon

Ok, well I have joined the ranks at last, only waited for 3 or so years.

My great wife & parents got me a *Optoma DS303 DLP Projector* for X-Mas.

So now I'm working on how to mount it in my living room.

Anybody heard anything on these? Good / Bad?

I'm sure I'll be back soon with lots of questions on maps and such.

Thanks

JD


----------



## Steel_Wind

JDragon said:
			
		

> Ok, well I have joined the ranks at last, only waited for 3 or so years.
> 
> My great wife & parents got me a *Optoma DS303 DLP Projector* for X-Mas.




Not sure on this one. I see it at Tiger Direct. It may be a rebranded older Optoma model or a specific brand for the direct market.

Whatever the case, resolution is a tad low at SVGA - but brightness and contrast appear to be quite decent and it should get the job done.

Post pics and have fun!


----------



## Steel_Wind

> A little googling turned this up:
> http://www.airdesks.com/projectorstand.asp
> 
> At 7' tall, I ought to be able to place this away from the seating, angle this thing almost straight down, get plently of throw distance to a floor (or coffee table) target, and still have less keystoning to correct than a wall mounted setup. Has anyone else tried something this?






			
				sozin said:
			
		

> short answer -- no.  it only supports a 45 degree downwards tilt.  you probably want 80-85 degree tilt.




True - this will not work unmodified as it does not have a proper ceiling style mount for the projector. It has a tray with some velcro - not what you want holding your projector on a 85 degree angle or so

But the stand itself is cool and should work well when a new ceiling mount style connector is attached to the rod that can support the weight at that angle.


----------



## JDragon

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Not sure on this one. I see it at Tiger Direct. It may be a rebranded older Optoma model or a specific brand for the direct market.
> 
> Whatever the case, resolution is a tad low at SVGA - but brightness and contrast appear to be quite decent and it should get the job done.
> 
> Post pics and have fun!




Cool, thanks for the info.

I'm hoping the resolution will not be a problem as all I plan to use it for it gaming.

Yeah I've been having trouble finding info on it online too. I think she said she got it CompUSA.

The first challange is mounting it, but one of the guys at work gave me a good suggestion today.

JD


----------



## Heathen72

So anyone tried the projector setup with the new NWN2 toolset?


----------



## DonTadow

spunkrat said:
			
		

> So anyone tried the projector setup with the new NWN2 toolset?



I'm very interested in trying this out, but havn't bought the game yet. Though from what I"ve seen it seems as if it'll be difficult considering the camera looks a bit different now. 

I hope there's a way to export maps though. I want to make an nwn2 campaign online and use the same maps in my tabletop game. 

Buy the way, projector tip I discovered a month ago. forget analog. If your computer spits out DVI, it is worth the money to buy a DVI cord that hooks up to your projector. I've never had such crisper images coming from my projector since I bought the DVI to MD1 cord. Don't get stuck with the high priced factory cords too. I bought mine from here for 15 bucks, this is compared to 150 bucks that Infocus wanted me to pay for the cord. 

http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp


----------



## Steel_Wind

spunkrat said:
			
		

> So anyone tried the projector setup with the new NWN2 toolset?




Not yet.  One of the problems with the NWN2 toolset is that it takes so much longer to make an area with it than NWN1.

Flexibility has its price.

For those who want to be able to whip something up on the fly as they game, NWN2 is not for you. Stick to NWN1's toolset.

For those who want a very flexible mapping system for exteriors - well - ok. If you care to put the time in, NWN2 will show it off in style.


----------



## Michael Morris

I'll get my digital camera out and photo it sometime, but yes I've whipped up a scene in 5 minutes with NWN2.  Granted, it's not as detailed as NWN2 is capable of but it was more than acceptable for top down.

I'm thinking of setting up a collection of psuedo modules for NWN2 that give the very basic layouts of locations.

It does take more time than NWN1 by a long shot though, 5-10 minutes as opposed to 1 or 2 for NWN1


----------



## JDragon

Ok, here's my first real question of what I belive will be many in getting everything set up to use my new projector.

We play in the living room and I belive I will using a ceiling mount for the projector. Our current playing surface is a sheet of ply wood that sits on the coffe table with the players around it on the couch.  This gives us approx a 4' by 8' area for playing, book, dice and such.

I plan to continue to use the board as the surface but want to prep one side of it for use with the projector. 

From what I have read and common sense says a white surface is best, so my plan is to paint one side of the board white.  

The ? is, what color / type of white paint do I use? 

I saw mention that to bright/shiny can cause a glare and such and want to get the best surface I can that will not cause other problems.

has anyone painted a surface for this use yet?

Also, do I make a grid on the board or do it with the computer?

Thanks

JD


----------



## Steel_Wind

You just are not going to get a great projection surface with plywood, imo.

However, if you are so inclined - use a medium gloss white for the wood. It's going to get a little dirty over time as the wood soaks up dirt, grease, natural oils, not to mention Coke stains, pizza, etc..

For principal use, get a presentation pad of paper, with a grid of 1" squares. They are 3x4' sheets. Should cost you $10 for a pad of 50 or so at Business Depot. Use this as your main surface on your tabletop and your painted plywood as your spillover for the projected image.

Generally speaking - keep the grid on the projection surface. You can use  photoshop and some other programs to do a grid on a separate mask - but it's a pain and it's fiddly. You end up screwing around with it instead of keeping your game moving along. A pad of white paper pre-gridded with 1" square is no muss, no fuss takes exactly ZERO seconds to maintain as you project on to it -  and may be marked up physically if you need to do so.  

If it gets dirty over a few sessions (and over time, it will) - rip it off and a brand new gleaming white page is right there, ready for you to use.  Unless you are marking up your pages multiple times during a session, a pad should last you  - what - a year or three - depending on how often you game? For $10?? That's a bargain.

Note - most ceiling brackets for projectors won't work for this purpose as you need to point it straight down and they are not made to accommodate that angle; however, a WALL mount bracket for a projector works extremely well for Tabletop projection when it is mounted to the ceiling (it will permit straight down with as much of  an angle as may be necessary). You can find em on eBay. (search "projector mount")


----------



## JDragon

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> You just are not going to get a great projection surface with plywood, imo.
> ...snip...




Just wondering why a sheet of plywood thats been filled, sanded and painted would not make a good surface to use?  Gotta be something I'm missing here. 

I understand the issues of it getting dirty and such, but can deal with that.

Thanks

JD


----------



## JDragon

Well, after going over this thread about 6 times in the last few weeks, I'm starting to make a little progress.

I've opted to go with an overhead projection set up.  Since I'm setting it up in my living room I have to keep it low profile and removable.  I'm actually going to mount the projector on the wall just below the ceiling off to one side of the table.  With the way the image travels up from the lense and the keystone correction it looks like I will be able to get a straight image at almost 40" by 53" or so image.

We did a proof of concept test with me on a ladder holding it in the proposed mount postion, projecting down on to our gaming board.  The few guys from my game that had gotten their early for the test were impressed with the size and brightness of the image we are going to get. As was I. 

Now all I need to do is build my mount and get the projectio surface ready.  Still think I want to try painting the plywood we use white and gridding it.  But I'm also looking at making a large sheet of graph paper down at kinko's with the oversize copier since my image will be to big for a single sheet of the 1" graph  paper that can be purchased.

Quick ? - I have a standard monitor input & S-Video connections on the projector and my laptop, which am I going to get a better image from or will it matter for game useage?  Just trying to figure out which kinda cable I should get since I'll need longer ones.

Thanks

JD


----------



## jodyjohnson

The VGA 15-pin connector will give a better image.


----------



## JDragon

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> The VGA 15-pin connector will give a better image.




Perfect, thanks for the quick response.

JD


----------



## DonTadow

JDragon said:
			
		

> Well, after going over this thread about 6 times in the last few weeks, I'm starting to make a little progress.
> 
> I've opted to go with an overhead projection set up.  Since I'm setting it up in my living room I have to keep it low profile and removable.  I'm actually going to mount the projector on the wall just below the ceiling off to one side of the table.  With the way the image travels up from the lense and the keystone correction it looks like I will be able to get a straight image at almost 40" by 53" or so image.
> 
> We did a proof of concept test with me on a ladder holding it in the proposed mount postion, projecting down on to our gaming board.  The few guys from my game that had gotten their early for the test were impressed with the size and brightness of the image we are going to get. As was I.
> 
> Now all I need to do is build my mount and get the projectio surface ready.  Still think I want to try painting the plywood we use white and gridding it.  But I'm also looking at making a large sheet of graph paper down at kinko's with the oversize copier since my image will be to big for a single sheet of the 1" graph  paper that can be purchased.
> 
> Quick ? - I have a standard monitor input & S-Video connections on the projector and my laptop, which am I going to get a better image from or will it matter for game useage?  Just trying to figure out which kinda cable I should get since I'll need longer ones.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> JD



Too late but ditto. I didnt realize how important connections was till a few months into my projection life. I assumed S-video, but the vga will giive you a far better picture. DVI is even better.


----------



## jodyjohnson

We moved a few months ago into a house with a finished basement (drywall ceiling).

Ended up adjusting the strap and shelf mount by mounting it to a couple 18" long 2x10 boards.  The whole thing is screwed to the ceiling at the studs.  So it's a 'permanent' set-up although occasionally I'll pull the projector from the shelf.

The map is not one of my better ones (Isle of the Ape, tribal village).

The play area is larger than 2 Fantastic Locations maps.


----------



## JDragon

JJ, great pics.

I hope to have my projector mounted and running for my game on the 21st of this month with pics up in a few days after.  I actually just took a couple "before" pics to have ready.

As I have been reading more on my projector and such I have found it can do several ratios (don't know what else to call it). Its native is 4:3 but it can do 16:9.  It looks like the 16:9 takes a longer throw distance, so I will more than likely go with 4:3.

I was just wondering what the people already doing this are running at?


Thanks

JD


----------



## JDragon

UPDATE...

My home made wall mount is completed and working.  Was able to get some test images on the coffe table today and have run into a problem. 

Keystone, it looks like my proof of concept test last week was not a complete as I thought.  Now that everything is set up i'm getting a bit of a skew to my pics.  in the 4:3 ratio with a 40 inch High / 52 inch wide image I have an angle on the image.  In 18 inches of distance I gain an inch of  width, ending with the top 2 inches + wider than the bottom.

Any one know any tricks that might help with this?

Here are a few images of the room / befor after and with the projector mounted.

The room where it will be before I did any work.




Close up of the hooks the rig hangs off. Only thing that stays when projector removed from room.




Close up of rig on table, from the side.




Close up of rig on table, from front.




Rig on the wall 1.




Rig on the wall 2.




I'll should have pics on sunday or monday of the actual images I'm getting in game to post.

JD


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

JDragon said:
			
		

> Keystone, it looks like my proof of concept test last week was not a complete as I thought.  Now that everything is set up i'm getting a bit of a skew to my pics.  in the 4:3 ratio with a 40 inch High / 52 inch wide image I have an angle on the image.  In 18 inches of distance I gain an inch of  width, ending with the top 2 inches + wider than the bottom.
> 
> Any one know any tricks that might help with this?




Have you already maxed out the keystoning adjustment on the projector?


----------



## JDragon

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Have you already maxed out the keystoning adjustment on the projector?




Yep. :-(

JD


----------



## rom90125

Steel_Wind (or anyone who has an opinion):

I'm thinking about purchasing a Dell 2400MP...your thoughts or opinions on this model?


----------



## Steel_Wind

2400 MP is a nice unit. When this thread started (nearly two years ago!) it was about $1,000.00 more than it is listing for now.

It is XGA, has a throw range competitive with most. At 5'9"  - it's in the 42" diagonal range. 

Contrast is 2000:1 or better. Brightness wise...at 3000 ANSI the biggest problem with the unit is that it may be TOO bright. That's a whole lot of VOOM in the ANSI lumens category. You can have too much of good thing. Certainly when the bulb is new and has yet to start to dim a bit, running that thing at full power may blast your player's eyes back in their skulls.

Run it in econo mode and you should be fine. Plus, at 36 db, it's a little loud at max brightness anyways.

Price at $1,049 right now is pretty good. You might look for a deal on a BenQ with similar features that includes a free lamp - some web dealers offer those.

But if Dell has your attention, I expect you'll be happy with it.


----------



## jodyjohnson

JDragon said:
			
		

> UPDATE...
> My home made wall mount is completed and working.  Was able to get some test images on the coffe table today and have run into a problem.
> 
> Keystone, it looks like my proof of concept test last week was not a complete as I thought.  Now that everything is set up i'm getting a bit of a skew to my pics.  in the 4:3 ratio with a 40 inch High / 52 inch wide image I have an angle on the image.  In 18 inches of distance I gain an inch of  width, ending with the top 2 inches + wider than the bottom.
> 
> Any one know any tricks that might help with this?JD




Only thing left would be to tilt the table.


----------



## Mark CMG

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> Only thing left would be to tilt the table.





Aren't there some sort of prism lenses use to offset that very thing?


----------



## JDragon

Ok as promised here are the second half of my pics from my game with the new projector in use.

This is in my living room during the afternoon, we normally keep the blinds closed but have all the lights on.  I did not adjust the lights for the pictures so these are at our "Playing" brightness.

Let me know if they are hard to see.

I ended up running my projector in a 16/9 ratio which gave me a 30" high by 50" wide image to play with.  The keystonning was not as bad in the 16:9 and not really noticible even with preprinted grids on the maps. 

The only problem I ran into was that the remote control would not work today.  It had worked for the last week for all the tests & demos but got nothing from it today even after changingthe batteries.  Not sure if its the remote or the sensor, but will have to look into it in the next few weeks.

This is a full size picture from behind the couch where I sit. (so about 5-7 feet away)




This is from the end of the board we play on.




This is a little over half of the projected surface.




Here are a couple close ups of the area of the map that had been revealed when I took the pics.








For today's game the images were projected on to the game board that I had painted white.  The board did not end up as smooth as I had planned so I will not be putting lines on it, but I did make a custom sheet of 1" graph paper at Kinko's for when we need grids.  I made a 36 x 60 inch PDF in with a 1 inch grid and had it printed on their oversize B&W printer.  It cost $12 for the print with no set up fee's.

If anyone would like the PDF I can email it to you, its only a 4k file.  Just drop me an email at jdragon0000 at yahoo dot com and I'll get it out as soon as I can.


----------



## rom90125

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> 2400 MP is a nice unit. When this thread started (nearly two years ago!) it was about $1,000.00 more than it is listing for now.
> 
> It is XGA, has a throw range competitive with most. At 5'9"  - it's in the 42" diagonal range.
> 
> Contrast is 2000:1 or better. Brightness wise...at 3000 ANSI the biggest problem with the unit is that it may be TOO bright. That's a whole lot of VOOM in the ANSI lumens category. You can have too much of good thing. Certainly when the bulb is new and has yet to start to dim a bit, running that thing at full power may blast your player's eyes back in their skulls.
> 
> Run it in econo mode and you should be fine. Plus, at 36 db, it's a little loud at max brightness anyways.
> 
> Price at $1,049 right now is pretty good. You might look for a deal on a BenQ with similar features that includes a free lamp - some web dealers offer those.
> 
> But if Dell has your attention, I expect you'll be happy with it.




Well, I purchased this projector and it was delivered a couple of days ago.  My son and I set it up tonight (James, thanks for helping the old man) and ran a proof of concept test.  It was great!  My group is playing tomorrow night, and to celebrate the addition of the projector, I created three areas with the Aurora tool set (immense swamp, large under-swamp cavern/ Black Dragon lair, and a forest area) and will have the group face off against a mad Black Dragon.  I will take pics and then post them on Sunday.


----------



## ra-punzel72

*Zoom out in NWN 2?*

Hi there 

My biggest problem is that I can not zoom out enough in NWN 2 (in NWN 1 too!) to display bigger maps in whole. Is there a possibility to do this?

Thx alot
RA-Punzel


----------



## Steel_Wind

ra-punzel72 said:
			
		

> Hi there
> 
> My biggest problem is that I can not zoom out enough in NWN 2 (in NWN 1 too!) to display bigger maps in whole. Is there a possibility to do this?
> 
> Thx alot
> RA-Punzel




In "game" you are not able to zoom out far enough. The references to using NWN1 (and 2) in this thread refer to displaying a map in the  toolset - not "in game".


----------



## ra-punzel72

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> In "game" you are not able to zoom out far enough. The references to using NWN1 (and 2) in this thread refer to displaying a map in the  toolset - not "in game".




I understand, we did this too in NWN 1. Is it possible to move a character around in the toolset of NWN 2 (or 1), so it simulates our thief exploring the area?


----------



## Steel_Wind

ra-punzel72 said:
			
		

> I understand, we did this too in NWN 1. Is it possible to move a character around in the toolset of NWN 2 (or 1), so it simulates our thief exploring the area?




You could manually slide a character around in the toolset I suppose...

But really - use a miniature. That's what all of this projection stuff is for


----------



## ra-punzel72

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> You could manually slide a character around in the toolset I suppose...
> 
> But really - use a miniature. That's what all of this projection stuff is for




We use miniatures! But I loved it to explore the map with one charakter running accross...displaying our thief. And its great to have a scrolling picture so the player does have to memroize where the guards and interessting places are...instead of seeing the whole map at the end.


----------



## cyberpunk

*Idea to fix skew*

In your image editing software, skew your originals in the opposite direction, to the same degree, and the effects should cancel out when you project.

I am logged in as cyberpunk but I am not cyberpunk.

happy gnome


----------



## Steel_Wind

Happy 2nd Anniversary. 

(This thread has been alive for two years now!)


----------



## cyberpunk

*Sanyo's mind-blowing projector*

apologies if somebody's already brought this up ...

Sanyo's new projector has a mind-blowingly short throw distance 

Ok, so it's US$6,000. When DVD burners first appeared in Wired magazine's fetish section they cost US$10,000.

Read the spec. You won't believe it.

Patience ...

 

happy gnome

I am not cyberpunk


----------



## jodyjohnson

80" from 3" away is a little too much wide angle.  That puts it right in the play space.


----------



## JDragon

I'm thinking it would be great for setting up under your table aiming up at table.

I think some people have already done this set up before here on the boards.

Get an image as big as you want, and no shadows from people or minis.  Plus no mirrors to worry about kicking. 

I'll add it to my list to keep an eye out for in 3-4 years when I go to upgrade.

JD


----------



## sozin

*My Digital Projector setup*

I posted all the details of my digital projector setup over at RPG Genius.  Pretty fancy stuff.


----------



## Steel_Wind

Very nice.  Hope it's working out well for you and your group!


----------



## Steel_Wind

cyberpunk said:
			
		

> apologies if somebody's already brought this up ...
> 
> Sanyo's new projector has a mind-blowingly short throw distance
> 
> Ok, so it's US$6,000. When DVD burners first appeared in Wired magazine's fetish section they cost US$10,000.
> 
> Read the spec. You won't believe it.




For those who did not read the link, this new patented technology appears to break all the rules of optics.

Sir Isaac Newton's jaw would be dropping to the floor and doing a  _Wile E Coyote_ with the way the lens on this projector works.

The technology allows a projector unit to throw a 80" diagonal wide image from a distance of a few inches away.   And, the image can be corrected digitally for "keystone" effect, so that you can mount the projector on the ceiling, essentially three inches away from the wall it is projecting onto, and it will work.

Or do the same on top of your tabletop. And yes - from beneath it too.

Sanyo has changed all the rules of optics at a stroke.  The unit will retail for about $5,000.00. That buys you a 1024x768 2000 lumens image that will fill your gaming table - when mounted a few inches beneath it, safely out of the way of anybody kicking it.

Yes, the projector with this technology would be perfect for projection beneath the tabletop. It's mount and forget technology. Absolutely perfect for tabletop gaming.

The sad thing is that the technology is also patented up the wazoo, so it will be some time before it becomes available at a lower cost. But it will come.

However, the news on patents is not all bad. It is now only about 4 months or so to go before the principal patent involved in all modern projection technology expires.

Texas Instruments patent on the DLP chip, the tiny mirrored processor that powers all DLP projectors expires in early 2008.  The expiry of that patent together with the pressure in the marketplace for new HDTV technology should drive the cost of projectors down in 2008 and we should see price drops in 2009 from increased competition.


----------



## Ruined

I know this thread is ancient, but it's still awesome. I'm joining the ranks. Picked up my InFocus IN26+ today. Dundjinni maps are ready, and I'm working out the best way to mount it. I'm currently leaning towards positioning it high on top of a bookshelf and then reflecting it down, possibly with Mylar as mentioned above.

When I get it functional, I'll post the obligatory pictures.


----------



## JDragon

Always good to see more people joining the ranks.

JD


----------



## Rallek

Don't know if this has been mentioned before or not, and I apologize if it has, but have you considered the uses for the "Low-Cost Multi-Point Interactive Whiteboard" Wiimote hardware hack?

it can be found here 

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~johnny/projects/wii/


----------



## 3d6+15

Ruined said:
			
		

> I know this thread is ancient, but it's still awesome.




This thread will never die.  It's the only one I've stayed subscribed to this long anywhere.

Not sure if I ever posted these, but here are some more pictures of my projector in use from last year (I think 2006 to be somewhat more specific.)

http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h120/jdigaetano/Projector/

Sorry for the blurry.  I'm a big fan of using the same map for combats as I do for reference just zoom them way the heck in, some maps look better than others when I do this.

To remind (update) everyone of my setup, that's a BenQ PB6200 (getting long in the tooth now! it also serves double duty these days for movies and Wii on a ceiling mount in another room) up inside my drop ceiling resting inside a wire soda rack which I have screwed to the joists.

My projection surface is a big whiteboard with the frame pried off.

The software is Fantasy Grounds.  (I'm on Fantasy Grounds II these days.)  One computer runs the projector and the players get a mouse and keyboard for it, and the DM has a computer behind the screen as the FG server.

The module is "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" for those of you who didn't figure that out.  (We finished it in early 2007.  We are playing The Savage Tide these days.  Hrm, actually I think I took some photos of The Sea Maiden cardstock model on a projected ocean...  I'll try to find those and get em up there. )


----------



## Ruined

Rallek said:
			
		

> Don't know if this has been mentioned before or not, and I apologize if it has, but have you considered the uses for the "Low-Cost Multi-Point Interactive Whiteboard" Wiimote hardware hack?





Heh, I picked up a Wiimote with a gift card a few days ago for just this purpose. The IR penlight is gonna be a bit tougher for me, but I plan to make it work.


----------



## Steel_Wind

I'd love to see a Wiimote hack for RPG projection in a Youtube or Stage 6 movie. 

If you get it working - be sure to show us


----------



## Ruined

I've ordered an IR penlight to try with the Wiimote hack. If I have any success, I'll see what I can do as far as video. I'm bad enough with a digital camera, as you'll see here.

I set the projector up, using a suspended mirror to project the image onto a whiteboard on my table. I was a bit nervous using the mirror method, as people had expressed concerns here before. It was still the best option for me at the moment, as I can't suspend the camera from my ceiling. Overall, the game went very well and my players really enjoyed the projection setup.

*Warning: * These images are blurry and could cause headaches. Apparently my skill with the PC does not extend to digital cameras.

http://www.ruined.net/proj/


----------



## jodyjohnson

cyberpunk said:
			
		

> apologies if somebody's already brought this up ...
> 
> Sanyo's new projector has a mind-blowingly short throw distance
> 
> Ok, so it's US$6,000. When DVD burners first appeared in Wired magazine's fetish section they cost US$10,000.




Currently listed at $2600 at one e-tailer.  Coming into range fast.

Based on the article it looks to be more forgiving of unorthodox mounting.


----------



## chriton227

I just saw this link this morning and immediately thought of the game table use.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2242734,00.asp

A projector the size of an iPod, it looks like just about anyone could rig a vertical mount over a table for it, and with the throws mentioned in the article, placing it about 4' over the table would allow for a 4'x4' map.  The article also mentions a price of between $200 and $300, that sounds too good to be true.


----------



## 3d6+15

Ruined said:
			
		

> I've ordered an IR penlight to try with the Wiimote hack. If I have any success, I'll see what I can do as far as video. I'm bad enough with a digital camera, as you'll see here.




Me too!  (ordered an IR penlight with the intent to try it and the intent to post a video)

Which one did you order, from where and how much?

I went for this one.  Hopefully it's wavelength will be acceptable to the Wii Remote.  I'll find out!


----------



## Steel_Wind

I'm somewhat hopeful about the laser tech, but the difference between a laser and a LED is in many respects semantics. The power level of a "laser"  driven small projector is still probably far too low in lumens output for our purposes.

The Mitsubishi pocket projector is about 80-100 lumens. It's just way too low powered for gaming.

The Sanyo short throw Jody posted with an updated price is, otoh, *The Bomb*. This patented technology is  *absolutely ideal for gaming.* The throw distances required to fill a tabletop are a matter of mere inches - and yes - this puppy can EASILY be mounted under a plexiglass table surface. At only a few inches from under the tabletop too, the projector can be completely out of the way. The table is then simply "live" @ 2000 lumens.

I completely agree with Jody. At $2,600.00, for what that projector can do, this thing is coming into justifiable dollar range right now. There are people who purchased projectors on this thread for about $2,200.00 just two years ago. Add the Sanyo short throw and a Wiimote hack? 

I'd say we are coming up  - and damned fast too - on the ULTIMATE Take No Frikkin Prisoners Gaming Projection rig.


----------



## Ruined

3d6+15 said:
			
		

> Which one did you order, from where and how much?





Exactly the same one. Hope we're right. =)   If not, I've seen some blogs of people who've made theirs without much problem.


----------



## WampusCat43

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I'm somewhat hopeful about the laser tech, but the difference between a laser and a LED is in many respects semantics. The power level of a "laser"  driven small projector is still probably far too low in lumens output for our purposes.
> 
> The Mitsubishi pocket projector is about 80-100 lumens. It's just way too low powered for gaming.
> 
> The Sanyo short throw Jody posted with an updated price is, otoh, *The Bomb*. This patented technology is  *absolutely ideal for gaming.* The throw distances required to fill a tabletop are a matter of mere inches - and yes - this puppy can EASILY be mounted under a plexiglass table surface. At only a few inches from under the tabletop too, the projector can be completely out of the way. The table is then simply "live" @ 2000 lumens.
> 
> I completely agree with Jody. At $2,600.00, for what that projector can do, this thing is coming into justifiable dollar range right now. There are people who purchased projectors on this thread for about $2,200.00 just two years ago. Add the Sanyo short throw and a Wiimote hack?
> 
> I'd say we are coming up  - and damned fast too - on the ULTIMATE Take No Frikkin Prisoners Gaming Projection rig.




80" image from 3 _inches _ away?  That's insane.  IT MUST BE MINE!


----------



## Steel_Wind

Well -in fairness - seeing as that "three inches" is measured from one edge of the unit - and the projection mirrors are on the other end - it's more like 15" away.

Still. That's highly workable for any under the table projection. Just as importantly, the unit does not have to be centred on the projection surface  and it will auto adjust. It's got "keystoning" functions on uber-steroids.


----------



## StarkLord

Hey all, I've been lurking here for a few months, read the entire thread through to the end and I'm glad to see there is still life here. It prompted me to join EN World so I could post.

Anyway, here's the deal. I just bought a new house and I'm planning on turning my basement into a man cave (i.e. game room). I'm all jazzed about going the projector route, but having just bought a house, I'm reluctant to spend thousands on a projector (a common concern, I've noticed). So here are a few projectors I've found under $800: 

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sanyo-PLC-XW55A.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-EP708.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Hitachi-CP-X251.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_77c.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-MP622c.htm

Is it just me, or are prices getting lower for some really great projectors? I'm looking to project from 4' to 6', depending on whether I use a ceiling mounted mirror. All of these have relatively short throws and resolution looks good at 1024x768 XGA. And the brightness on all is over 2000 ANSI lumens. So is there a con to any of these budget-priced units?

Also, would it be worth it to wait until the Microvision SHOW is released? The $200 - $300 price range is a pro that may far out weigh the cons on this unit. CES 2008 is this week and I'm sure we'll know more afterwards.

Thanks in advance for your comments. And thank you, Steel Wind, for starting a great post over 2 years ago!


----------



## Steel_Wind

StarkLord said:
			
		

> H
> http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sanyo-PLC-XW55A.htm
> http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-EP708.htm
> http://www.projectorcentral.com/Hitachi-CP-X251.htm
> http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_77c.htm
> http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-MP622c.htm
> 
> Is it just me, or are prices getting lower for some really great projectors? I'm looking to project from 4' to 6', depending on whether I use a ceiling mounted mirror. All of these have relatively short throws and resolution looks good at 1024x768 XGA. And the brightness on all is over 2000 ANSI lumens. So is there a con to any of these budget-priced units?




No. It's not just you. Projector prices are falling - and will fall even further this year as Texas Instruments' original DLP patent expires this year.

The falling new price is reflected on eBay's used 800x600 projectors. They are $300ish now in price. Even the used XGA projectors are in the $400 range.

We've also seen a movement of projector technology both into rear projection sets and into front screen projection in living rooms.

It appears that rear-projection DLP's were at their height a year ago and are only decreasing in market attractiveness now as large HDTV LCD panels have dropped significantly in price. Unless there are significant developments in this coming year in DLP technology, I think the rear-projection DLP will go the way of the dodo - and fast. Sony is already abandoning the rear projection field. Large Flat panel LCD's had a big price disadvantage but that has largely vanished during the time this thread has been on ENworld.

How that trend will effect projector prices is not yet known. But I think the result is that projectors will continue to decrease in price.

*Going flat Panel on the Tabletop *

Arguably, you might dare to purchase a 40 to 42" flat panel LCD HDTV right now and mount the thing recessed, lying flat on a custom table and just PLAY on top of that HDTV monitor screen. More expensive than a projector? Currently? Yes. But at $1,000-$1,200 or so for a 40-42" flat panel, less expensive  - or at least the same cost - as most of the people on this thread paid to buy their BenQ or Dell projectors at a "new" cost two to three years ago.

And the price on those panels continues to fall. By Fall/Xmas 08 - I think the 40-42" will be all under 1k, with a few at the $800.00 mark.

If all you were getting out of your projection setup from top down projection was a 40-42" inch screen - you could get *vastly* more detail out a flat panel 1080p built into a table for that purpose right now.  The resolution on my Sony Bravia 40" LCD is 1920 x 1080 and yes, it has a VGA port.  

The math on a 40" 1080p HDTV LCD panel is:

1920x1080 = 2,073,600 pixels on a 40" 16:9 image = 700 sq inches = 2962 pixels per sq. inch.  That's a hellavu lot of pixels folks.

Our group's two current gaming projectors are:

800x600 = 480,000 pixels on a 42" 4:3 image  = 850 sq inches = 565 pixels per sq inch.

1024x768 = 786,432 pixels on a 42" 4:3 image = 850 sq. inches = 925 pixels per sq. inch.

In the result, the flat panel HDTV yields a resolution over three times as sharp as the XGA and 5.5 times the SVGA projector. And there is no question that the brightness and clarity of the HDTV image is an order of magnitude higher.

I'm happy to have my flat panel mounted on a jury rigged wall mount for installation in my current wall unit. I have no plans to alter that for tabletop use and my wife would KILL ME if I did. 

But getting another one to be mounted flat in a recessed  tabletop doth hath its attractions. And the image resolution would be absolutely spectacular.  So spectacular the main concern might be finding a source image of high enough quality to display on it during play.  At a certain point - it can start to look TOO good 

*Other Projection Technologies*

By far the most exciting projection technology on the horizon is Sanyo's ultra short throw patented mirror projection system used on the XL50. This complex mirror set-up produces an image that permits radically different projector locations (relative to the projected image location) and permits images of up to 80" on the diagonal from a range of just *15"* from the lens.

80" is, in fact, larger than most tables could easily accommodate. Practically speaking, a normal  tabletop with a jury-rigged plexiglass-in-wood-frame design can physically accommodate a 70" 4:3 image.

And you can achieve that 70" image by mounting the projector under the table surface and still be able to play at the table with your legs and chairs underneath it in the ordinary way.

Pixel density and image sharpness drop though - and by quite a bit. The math on such a projector is:

1024x768 = 786,432 pixels on a 70" 4:3 image = 2352 sq. inches = 334 pixels per sq. inch.

334 pixels per sq inch is very low. That image is going to appear to be HIGHLY pixelated to the player's eye. 

Assuming you could get a 1080p projector using that same Sanyo ultra short throw mirror technology (and to be clear, such a projector does not exist right now  - and if it did - it would probably be in the $7,000-$10,000 cost range), the numbers are a lot better:

1920x1080 = 2,073,600 pixels on a 70" 16:9 image = 2074 sq inches =  1000 pixels per sq. inch.

That would be a very decent projector indeed   My guess is that it is on its way, too.  The only real factor is cost.

In the offing as well, we have OLED LCD based panels. Organic  permits even better color and ultra thin monitor panels - less than 1/2" thick. Stand excepted, you could just lay the thing down on a tabletop.

OLED's are expensive though right now - and the main players have just invested **billions** in large scale LCD flat panel manufacturing plants. I don't see OLED's coming to the market in large sizes for another 5-8 years, at least.

Is the marginal attractiveness of a 1/2 inch panel vs a 4 inch thick HDTV panel all that big a deal? Probably not, imo.

*Micro-Projector Technology *



> Also, would it be worth it to wait until the Microvision SHOW is released? The $200 - $300 price range is a pro that may far out weigh the cons on this unit. CES 2008 is this week and I'm sure we'll know more afterwards.




No. You should not be waiting for this. There is a point where physics is  getting in the way of usable projection technology.

Can they get a lens and DLP based projector in a hand-held rig? Yes they can. Mitsubishi has already done it with its pocket projector - and the SHOW is essentially the same design, albeit with a slightly different light source. (The difference between an LED and a Laser is largely a matter of semantics. Once you have a Blue LED - you have a blue laser. LED's and LD's are two sides of the same coin and manufactured by the same players in the same mftring plants.)

You don't magically get 2000 lumens out of a handful of LEDs or LD's, given our current understanding of that technology. Your light source needs to be much bigger to get significantly more power out of it and all the other kit that goes with making a coherent beam of light that bright. 

End result - you are not goign to get a 2000 ANSI lumens - or even 1000-1200 ANSI Lumens out of something the size of a deck of cards given our current lighting technology. The current Mitsubishi Pocket Projector Model II has an output of 80-100 ANSI. (Model 1 was under 50 lumens) That is just far too dim for gaming in a normally lit room. 

Now, if it turns out I'm wrong, and these guys have a 1200 ANSI projector coming out of a pack of cards that can throw a XGA 48" image at three feet from a $300 projector, then WotC will be a happy company - because that will change the look and feel of tabletop gaming at a stroke.

But that's just not going to happen in the short to medium run. Unless somebody figures out how to generate incredibly bright coherent light without the heat and all the supporting electronics to make it fit in a tiny projector.  Will it happen? Probably. But there is no evidence to suggest it will be happening this week at CES - or anytime soon, either.



> Thanks in advance for your comments. And thank you, Steel Wind, for starting a great post over 2 years ago!




The thread will be three years old in a few weeks. The remarkable thing about it is not how it continues to attract attention. I think that's inherent in the technology.  

I think the remarkable thing is how much the price has come down surrounding this technology in the time the thread has been going. There were a lot of naysayers in this thread early on concerning how "rich" you had to be to do this. It annoyed me - as even in the $600-$700 range for a gaming group - that was easily affordable.

Now? It's about half-that in price.

Take a look on eBay. Look under "completed" listings for LCD projectors and DLP projectors. Ignoring the "buy it now" sale, you will see a LOT of SVGA and XGA projectors have sold on eBay for under $300-$400 range in the past months. Not just a few of em. But a LOT.

This technology is affordable, it is practical and its time  is *now*.


----------



## StarkLord

Thank you Steel Wind. You continue to be most knowledgeable in the realm or projection table top gaming.

I guess my only option now is to wait. I don't even take control of my house until the end of the month. It'll be another month or two before I have my basement all set up and ready for the projector. Who knows? Maybe by then I can get a decent rig for $500.

Patience, my boy, patience...


----------



## Hjorimir

I'm really interested in the LCD table idea that Steel_Wind mentioned above (I'd prefer it to a projector, really). But I have a few questions.

I'd rather not have to draw a grid on an expensive piece of plexiglass (I wouln't even consider drawing on the LCD...ack). Is there a way in the NWN toolset to add a good grid to use?

Or, is there a way to use the toolset to accuratly track movement of objects (i.e. characters)?

I guess if I had my wishes, I could just import some kind of tokens (with local jpg, bmp, etc.) and then move them around on a snap to 5' grid feature.

Any NWN gurus out there that can help?

Thanks much!


----------



## Steel_Wind

Long time since a post on this thread.

Dell's XGA projector, 2500 Lumens, DLP is on right now for $699 new.

Link is here: http://accessories.dell.com/sna/pro...l.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=223-8481

When we started this thread, log ago, a projector with these specifications was about $2,000.00+

How times change.


----------



## WampusCat43

These price drops are because of the newer high-def models coming out, right?  Would you buy one of these now, or wait for the price on the newer ones to come down?


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> *Going flat Panel on the Tabletop *
> 
> Arguably, you might dare to purchase a 40 to 42" flat panel LCD HDTV right now and mount the thing recessed, lying flat on a custom table and just PLAY on top of that HDTV monitor screen. More expensive than a projector? Currently? Yes. But at $1,000-$1,200 or so for a 40-42" flat panel, less expensive  - or at least the same cost - as most of the people on this thread paid to buy their BenQ or Dell projectors at a "new" cost two to three years ago.




God, that's sick.

I am, in fact, one of those folks who bought a BenQ for a little under $1000 bucks a couple of years ago. Due to my current condo setup, I still haven't had a chance to build any kind of permanent fixture for my projector.

As a result, I've been very happy to get about a 20"x20" actual size playing "grid" out of it.

Well, I _was_ happy with it, until I popped in here. 

I think it is safe to say that when I finally buy a house with a proper game room, I'll be retiring the projector from its gaming duties and buying a fonkin' 'uge flat panel and building it into a recessed table.

Of course that's probably 2 years off as well, so who knows what options I will have when that day comes.


----------



## WampusCat43

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> *Going flat Panel on the Tabletop *
> 
> Arguably, you might dare to purchase a 40 to 42" flat panel LCD HDTV right now and mount the thing recessed, lying flat on a custom table and just PLAY on top of that HDTV monitor screen.




Will plasmas work in this configuration?  Their cost is dropping like a rock as well.  Craigslist is crawling with ads for all types of TVs.


----------



## 3d6+15

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I think it is safe to say that when I finally buy a house with a proper game room, I'll be retiring the projector from its gaming duties and buying a fonkin' 'uge flat panel and building it into a recessed table.
> 
> Of course that's probably 2 years off as well, so who knows what options I will have when that day comes.




I'm not likely to do this soon either, (I'm still very happy with my BenQ PB6200 mounted in my drop ceiling, use it regularly) but this does sound nice, and since my tabletop is a conversion top on a pool table, I already have room for the recess!


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

3d6+15 said:
			
		

> I'm not likely to do this soon either, (I'm still very happy with my BenQ PB6200 mounted in my drop ceiling, use it regularly) but this does sound nice, and since my tabletop is a conversion top on a pool table, I already have room for the recess!




The only issue you might run into with that setup is venting of the monitor - allowing air to flow around it will help keep it from overheating and potentially lessening the life of the monitor.

re: WampusCat43 - I don't know of anything specific that would prevent you from using a plasma in the same configuration, but I'm not 100% on that.

SteelWind - what do bulbs run on that $699 Dell projector, and whats the life on those now?  That's the big thing that might end up making an LCD or Plasma more cost-efficient in the long run.


----------



## jimmifett

WampusCat43 said:
			
		

> Will plasmas work in this configuration?  Their cost is dropping like a rock as well.  Craigslist is crawling with ads for all types of TVs.




To my knowledge, tipping over plasma is supposed to be bad. I think you have to keep them in their normal viewing position or something breaks. I'm pretty sure even the box for them says "Do not Lay Flat" or something.


----------



## WampusCat43

Right after I posted that, I thought "Didn't Philips run an ad on their early plasma models where a couple mounted one on the ceiling above their bed?"  Anybody remember that?


----------



## heruca

I remember that ad.

Given that heat rises, the ceiling is probably the worst place for a plasma screen, assuming heat really is an issue with these things.


----------



## Sabathius42

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> SteelWind - what do bulbs run on that $699 Dell projector, and whats the life on those now?  That's the big thing that might end up making an LCD or Plasma more cost-efficient in the long run.




3000 hour bulb life @ 5 hours per gaming session=600 sessions per bulb.  A new bulb is just under 300 bucks, which come out to be .50 a session.  Assume each player chips in a dime when they show up at each game, the GM gets a bulb for free.

DS


----------



## AstroCat

The problem for one thing is the throw distance. I want a 34 x 45 4:3 image, but the projector is going to only be about 4 feet away with 7" ceilings down on to the table. Right now I don't see how this could happen. Ideas?

Right now I'm looking at around 18 x 25 max, a 42" LCD flat panel on the table may be a better option. That will give me 21 x 37 16:9.


----------



## WampusCat43

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> 3000 hour bulb life @ 5 hours per gaming session=600 sessions per bulb.  A new bulb is just under 300 bucks, which come out to be .50 a session.  Assume each player chips in a dime when they show up at each game, the GM gets a bulb for free.
> 
> DS



And that's assuming it's on the entire session.  And I wish we really did play five hours.  We're lucky to get three anymore.


----------



## chriton227

AstroCat said:
			
		

> The problem for one thing is the throw distance. I want a 34 x 45 4:3 image, but the projector is going to only be about 4 feet away with 7" ceilings down on to the table. Right now I don't see how this could happen. Ideas?
> 
> Right now I'm looking at around 18 x 25 max, a 42" LCD flat panel on the table may be a better option. That will give me 21 x 37 16:9.




One way you can increase the throw is to mount the projector either up high horizontally or off to the side pointing up and use a mirror on the ceiling to reflect the image to the table.  Many projectors have a setting to reverse the image so that after reflection it is correctly oriented, and all should have keystone correction to correct for the slightly angled projection. The mirror would likely be lighter than the projector and much easier to mount (at least in the project-up/reflect-down setup). Here are some links to examples:

http://dndnerd.com/a-nifty-projector-setup
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tutorials/tabletopprojection/ceilingmounts.htm


----------



## WampusCat43

chriton227 said:
			
		

> One way you can increase the throw is to mount the projector either up high horizontally or off to the side pointing up and use a mirror on the ceiling to reflect the image to the table.  Many projectors have a setting to reverse the image so that after reflection it is correctly oriented, and all should have keystone correction to correct for the slightly angled projection. The mirror would likely be lighter than the projector and much easier to mount (at least in the project-up/reflect-down setup). Here are some links to examples:
> 
> http://dndnerd.com/a-nifty-projector-setup
> http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tutorials/tabletopprojection/ceilingmounts.htm




The second is the setup we've been using.  The only drawback (and it's minor compared to the awesomeness we get out of it) is that I have to reach way up and over the table to turn the thing on and off - no remote).  We're working on that.


----------



## Avalloc

A friend of mine told me about his use of a projector for tabletop gaming, and for a while I thought it was cool but overkill. Well, I've been DMing a campaign for most of this year now and the concept has grown on me. 

My setup is unique in fact my apartment complex will not permit me to drill into my ceiling to mount a projector. And so I considered going the route of having a table made to set an lcd tv within, but that'll be more expensive then what I'm looking to spend. Especially since the table would only get used once or twice a month, and the rest of time would be broken down and stored somewhere. I've already got a table that'll accommodate my group of 6 players so a projector makes more sense. 

Does anyone know of a safe/practical way to mount the projector from a beam/bar which could be run along the ceiling across the room? It would attach to the wall, instead of the ceiling. And the room is maybe 20 feet wide, for the distance the beam/bar would extend. When not using it for gaming, the projector would be removed from the beam. In fact, if it is manageable I might take the whole thing down and put it back up for each session. 

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## guivre

WampusCat43 said:


> Will plasmas work in this configuration?  Their cost is dropping like a rock as well.  Craigslist is crawling with ads for all types of TVs.




Plasmas are subject to burn in, not a good choice at all.


----------



## Dax Doomslayer

Hi Avalloc,
I'm not sure if this will work but this link came up earlier in the thread I believe and it may be something to consider . . . 

http://www.airdesks.com/projectorstand.asp


----------



## Nebulous

I  posted in this thread a long time ago, but god, i'm glad i looked back.  It reminded me of just HOW much i wanted to to the projection thing.  But, there are so many options out there, and now i'm thinking about the recessed LCD in the game table itself, which might be even better. 

Much to think about.


----------



## xmanii

Seen this on Gizmodo, and thought of this thread, so I thought I would share. Of course the price tag will dissuade some buyers, but we can drool, no?


_Meridian's 810 projector boldly claims to be the Reference Video System, and after seeing it for myself I think that's a fair assessment. The $185,000 box (that's right!) uses specially calibrated JVC D-ILA light engine panels to deliver a resolution of 4096 x 2400 pixels, or put simply, 10-freaking-megapixels. Compare that to 1080i's one paltry MP of resolution, or 1080p full HD's skimpy 2MP. So how does the 810 do its magic? With a very unique scaling engine.

The 810's Marvell-designed engine seen above stitches four 1080p scalers together with DVI connections to bump any digital source from 480i to 1080p up to a full 10MP. The projector can pump out a few different aspect ratios: 4:3, 16:9 and using a CinemaScope lens, 2.35:1 anamorphic widescreen that's mostly used in old school films. It's also got a lamp that goes up to Hollywood-reference levels of 4000 lumens and a 10,000:1 contrast ratio which is odd since their $15K projector claims 30,000:1.

Either way, the picture projected by the 810 is pretty unreal. I stuck my nose up to the screen and couldn't see a pixel to save my life, and Meridian says that it will project on a screen up to 25 feet wide without any pixelation. The 810 comes in short, medium, and long-throw packages, as well as a very short throw package for rear-projection. It'll be available in September, if you can afford it._


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

Avalloc said:


> My setup is unique in fact my apartment complex will not permit me to drill into my ceiling to mount a projector.
> 
> Does anyone know of a safe/practical way to mount the projector from a beam/bar which could be run along the ceiling across the room?




My situation is similar-- I don't have a dedicated game room yet, so I either have to be able to set up and take down my rig on game night, or start looking for a new wife. (Hmm...)

So here's my solution:

My projection surface is a lightly-frosted "white" glass tabletop from IKEA. It is about 30" x 60" and stands about 36" off the floor.

If it isn't this exact model it is one very similar.

I bought a wide (24") mirror and mounted it to an apparatus composed of two 24"x24" particle boards hinged together along one edge. It sits on the floor like an "L". This allows me to adjust the mirror angle (although in practice, I've now settled on the optimum angle to it's not particularly important to be able to adjust-- unless my setup changes).

Place the mirror on the floor under the table. Place the projector on the floor aimed at the mirror. Adjust the mirror angle, and the distance of the projector from the mirror. Project the image up onto the _bottom_ of the frosted glass.

The projected image is limited a bit in size, but it's still easily 24"x24" which is plenty of room for combat. It is also extremely bright and the colors are vibrant. 

Someday I intend to have a dedicated game room (in a walk-up attic, for example) and even if I had room to project from overhead, I probably wouldn't to it at this point-- so happy am I with the results I am getting. The only thing I would change in this "dream" setup would be to get a bigger table surface and build a more permanent "Ultimate Game Table" to house the projector/mirror securely.

Of course by the time I have a game room like that, as I think I mentioned upthread, it will probably be easier for me to just buy a (cheap!) 48" flat widescreen LCD and mount that into an Ultimate Game Table.


----------



## DonTadow

Wulf Ratbane said:


> My situation is similar-- I don't have a dedicated game room yet, so I either have to be able to set up and take down my rig on game night, or start looking for a new wife. (Hmm...)
> 
> So here's my solution:
> 
> My projection surface is a lightly-frosted "white" glass tabletop from IKEA. It is about 30" x 60" and stands about 36" off the floor.
> 
> If it isn't this exact model it is one very similar.
> 
> I bought a wide (24") mirror and mounted it to an apparatus composed of two 24"x24" particle boards hinged together along one edge. It sits on the floor like an "L". This allows me to adjust the mirror angle (although in practice, I've now settled on the optimum angle to it's not particularly important to be able to adjust-- unless my setup changes).
> 
> Place the mirror on the floor under the table. Place the projector on the floor aimed at the mirror. Adjust the mirror angle, and the distance of the projector from the mirror. Project the image up onto the _bottom_ of the frosted glass.
> 
> The projected image is limited a bit in size, but it's still easily 24"x24" which is plenty of room for combat. It is also extremely bright and the colors are vibrant.
> 
> Someday I intend to have a dedicated game room (in a walk-up attic, for example) and even if I had room to project from overhead, I probably wouldn't to it at this point-- so happy am I with the results I am getting. The only thing I would change in this "dream" setup would be to get a bigger table surface and build a more permanent "Ultimate Game Table" to house the projector/mirror securely.
> 
> Of course by the time I have a game room like that, as I think I mentioned upthread, it will probably be easier for me to just buy a (cheap!) 48" flat widescreen LCD and mount that into an Ultimate Game Table.



Whoever creates a portable projector mount using tripod and lighting rig designs is going to make a bit of money in the gaming industry.


----------



## DonTadow

So I"m pissed, the bulb of the projector i bought 2 years ago x3 died, it had no more than 1000 hours on the bulb, despite the advertisement of 3,000 to 4,000.  So now its off to find a better one. Now that i actually use my projector for movies and tv as well, time to find something dependable. I plan on buying a new projector because it does not seem worth it to buy a bulb when many say the bulbs for this machine last significantly less than advertised.


----------



## DonTadow

So I"m trying to decide between these two projectors.  The hitachi is discontinued and is a fraction of the original $3,000 price and seems to compare well to the benq.  I like the idea of Lensshift technology as my projector is at an angle from my table. 

Hitachi PJTX100 UltraVision Projector \

Hitachi Projectors: Hitachi PJTX100 UltraVision 3LCD projector

BenQ W500
BenQ Projectors: BenQ W500 3LCD projector

Any opinion is apprciated.


----------



## 3d6+15

My second bulb on the PB6200 exploded yesterday during the game.  

I'm rather upset.  

I pulled out the old OEM bulb (which had been going dim which was why I replaced it) and the projector shuts off right away. 

I'm not sure if it's the old bulb or if the projector is malfunctioning.  I'd hate to spend $300 to find out.

I have two weeks to figure out what I'm going to do.  (Or I'll be playing D&D in the stone age that weekend.  )


----------



## NMcCoy

I haven't read through this entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but has anyone added [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s5EvhHy7eQ]multitouch capability[/ame] to their projected maps?


----------



## 3d6+15

NMcCoy said:


> I haven't read through this entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but has anyone added multitouch capability to their projected maps?




I bought a single IR pointer to play with the idea, and have a Wii, but had enough trouble synching my Wiimote to my PC that I shelved it, at least for now.


----------



## twonine

*Building a removable projector setup*

Hey all,

I'm putting together a projector system for our game based on all the success we've seen here already. I'm going to use a Toshiba TDP-XP2U, which is 2500ANSI, and 2000:1 contrast, XGA. I saw it in person at Fry's and it really blew away the competing projectors at the $600 price point.

My install needs to be completely removable, which is a little more challenging. The solution I've come up with is to use a single Ikea Stolmen post, and mount the projector to that, at about a 60 degree angle.

There was a similar project, using the post to mount a bike:
ikea hacker: stolmen bike rack

I'll send some photos when we get it up and running.

For running the game, we are looking at possibly using something like Flash, to layer fancy animating effects on top of the map, and little status effect bubbles under the miniature bases.


----------



## JDragon

*Using a Mirror?*

Evening all,

I've had my projector for a little over 2 years, but due to some changes will be re-arranging how my projector is set up.

I'm looking at using a ceiling mount and a mirror to direct the image down to the table.  

From what I understand this will be better for the projector than mounting it hanging straight down since it would not vent as well.  Any one have experience with this?

I'm looking at having the mirror around a foot from the projector and then about 7' to the table.  Will this work ok?  What problems could I run into?

Thanks

JD


----------



## Ruined

That's close to the setup I have. My projector is atop a tall hutch cabinet, and I have a framed mirror suspended from small chains and plant hooks in the ceiling. 

As you'll be bouncing the image at an angle, you'll have to adjust the keystone settings all the way, and even then you'll experience a small bit of convex images.  And depending on how you suspend the mirror, if it's like mine, you may notice a small amount of shift from airflow in the house.  Neither effect has bothered me.

Pics of my setup are linked somewhere up above, but I believe they're stored here:  Tabletop Projection pics


----------



## D&D

Anyone happen to have saved some of the pics provided in the OP?  The links are dead and my world won't be right until I get a gander at this badossity.


----------



## Jools

Anyone got pics of this kind of thing in action? Pics in the first post aren't working and I'm dying to see!


----------



## BruntFCA

You don't need 7foot projection length anymore. You can use something called a "short throw" projector.

Also this dude made a proper complete guide on how to make a complete digital projection table-top.

Build Your Own Portable Digital Map for Tabletop Role Playing (Dungeons & Dragons, Pathfinder, DDM, Etc).


His system is nice because it is portable.

You can also make a quick system based on 36 inch LCD screen now as well, since you can pick one up for less thatn $400


----------



## Steel_Wind

D&D said:


> Anyone happen to have saved some of the pics provided in the OP?  The links are dead and my world won't be right until I get a gander at this badossity.




The web site they were hosted was lost. They may be on some other hard drive here in my home somewhere - but I'm not terribly hopeful.

I'll take some more pics next session and repopulate the first post with newer pics.


----------



## Steel_Wind

BruntFCA said:


> You don't need 7foot projection length anymore. You can use something called a "short throw" projector.




Quite true. And if you are buying a new projector, short throw projectors are a lot cheaper now then they were five years ago. 



> You can also make a quick system based on 36 inch LCD screen now as  well, since you can pick one up for less thatn $400



A 36" or even 42" LCD has its strengths and weknesses. Above all, it needs a  custom table. If that's something you want to make - no problem.


> His system is nice because it is portable.



As for the portability factor...I guess your game moves around a lot?

I think you will find that - for most people (admittedly not all)  portability is not something they place much of a premium on. Projector based gaming groups tend to be held in the same home every session and the projector is  usually installed in a fixed position. While portability is nice, I would never  sacrifice ease of use at the table to retain it.

If portable projection is important to you, I suppose that approach will work. But to be honest? I think it's a poor design for normal use. Don't get me wrong - it's GREAT in the sense that it firmly holds the projector in place, but it's bulky and gets in the way of the reason you have a projector in the first place: *to play RPGs.
*
What you want from an ideal tabletop system is one that does not get in the way of the players at all and totally fades from the room. It creates a projected image in the centre of the table - and that's it. That projected image has everyone gathered around the table with books and dice and minis. The players are all interacting with the map, and their minis  -- a_nd with each other_ -- in the same way as they would with a Battlemat and wet erase markers in the centre of the table.

The cage and raised surface just gets WAY too much in the way of the players - both in interacting with that map and in talking with each other.  That's not an effect I would ever strive for when planning a tabletop projection rig.

As a rig to use at, say, a convention? I'm with you 100%. Very cool for that purpose.


----------



## GentleGiant

For the last couple of years I've wanted to use a projector for my games and I've finally decided to do some serious looking into it.

So I started browsing the various eBay'esque sites to see if I could find a useful and good, yet cheap projector for this project.

I stumbled upon two projectors that are up for sale "locally" and wanted to get some input on them.
The first is the Toshiba TDP-T90U.
The second one is a Acer P5260i.
They're both xga projectors with good lumens. The throw distances are a bit different, though. Also, the Acer is almost twice the price of the Toshiba (DKK 1700.- vs. DKK 3000.- - or roughly $313 vs. $553)

On the other hand I can get a new BenQ MP525-V (don't know what the "-V" stands for and if the specs are different than the one I link to) for DKK 3150.- ($581)...

I'll most likely be using a top-down rig of some kind.

So, any advice would be great!


----------



## Steel_Wind

First off, I have a Toshiba T90U. It's a serviceable projector and that's a decent price for it. I've never had any problems with mine, FWIW.  

You've linked to the right site for each of those units. The thing you need to look at is:

1 - Is the resolution Native at 1024x768? In the case of the projectors you have shown, the answer is "yes". Are they all at least 1800 ANSI or higher? Yes they are. Brightness is good enough on all of them (more than 3000 is too bright, imo).

2 - Click on the projection calculator link for each of those projectors. Below, change the measurement to english to give your self a foot and inches scale.

Play with the throw length on each unit and look at the diagonal result for each at a particular focal length. 

Assuming....

A - Your celing height is 8'; and
B - Your table height is 30"-32"; and,
C-  Your projector is about 6"-8" deep when mounted

then you want to look at the diagonal image size from a range of about 57"-60". If your ceiling height is ten feet - awesome - you got a lot more to play with.  (You ususally can get a few more diagonal inches using the Zoom factor on the lens, btw.)

As long as you diagonal image is 38"-42" across, you are in the acceptable range. If not, you will want to increase that focal length by using a mirror, angled projection with keystone correction, etc..

A larger image is good - but only to a point. As you increase image size, your pixel density drops correspondingly. It's a geometric drop, so be mindful.

I don't think any of those units are poor choices. A newer unit with a new lamp is going to last longer.  Other than that, it's a matter of money.

If you get the T90U and the lamp lasts long, you'll be relatively pleased. If not, you'll be unhappy. There really is no way to guage it. (I would never trust the internal read out on a used unit in terms of how many hours are on the bulb, either. They can easily be reset and you'll never know.) 

If you can afford the brand new BenQ - you might look at that one.  

But I think a Samsung L220 is a much better deal though, as it has a much shorter throw length (and is cheapr, too).

There are other cheap short throw projectors out there - that just happens to be one that I have a handy link to. I urge you to poke around more on your own.

Play with the image size on the L220 at 5' or so on the projection calculator, and you'll see that you can push the image size to about the max you'll ever want to get it to for gaming purposes when positioned directly over your table -- with a diagonal of about 48" (30"x40"). Past that size, pixel density will become problematic as 25x25 pixels per sq. inch is about as low as you want to go. (You _can_ push it to 20x20 if you feel the need).

Enjoy -- and post pics of your set up!!


----------



## rjdafoe

I just bought the Samsung L220 and I like it.  Check out my blog here on ENWorld for how I am building my setup with it.  I am rear projecting from under the table.  If you follow that link, it comes with a spare bulb as well.  I think it is a great deal.

I agree - share pictures!  I am always looking at what other people are doing for this type of stuff.


----------



## Steel_Wind

rjdafoe said:


> I just bought the Samsung L220 and I like it.  Check out my blog here on ENWorld for how I am building my setup with it.  I am rear projecting from under the table.  If you follow that link, it comes with a spare bulb as well.  I think it is a great deal.
> 
> I agree - share pictures!  I am always looking at what other people are doing for this type of stuff.




Yeah, the extra bulb is a *huge* bonus on that deal. The poster is in Denmark though and I am not sure that the vendor in that link will ship there. There may also be potential import duties to pay as well to factor in to the cost, together with increased shipping costs. Even still, I think it's a much better deal, imo -- and for a better projector than the ones he noted. 

If GentleGiant is not aware, a replacement lamp for these projectors cost about $300 +/-. So when a lamp goes, it's a *big* deal.

With a new lamp in the projector and a spare, assuming the lamps work for ca. 1500 hours each, you are unlikely to ever need another replacement bulb for as long as you own the projector if you are just using it for gaming purposes. 

Depends on the frequency of your game sessions and the lenght of an average session when you are using the projector. Still, for, say, a 6 hour session, once a week? That's about 300 hours of use per year. 

Ten years of lamp life from two bulbs is a very conservative estimate with lamp life these days. You could easily get 50%-100% more usable projection time per lamp. (Or less, either way, you are covered with an extra lamp) 

So with two lamps? That's a LOT of projection time. My guess is that whatever technology we use to replace an XGA projector in the coming decade will be what causes you to discontinue the use of the projector in favor of something else. Chances are very good that it won't be the end of your projector's two lamps.


----------



## GentleGiant

I can't seem to find the Samsung L220 anywhere in Europe, only the L200 (haven't done a step-by-step comparison, but it seems like it's only the Lumens that's different - 2200 vs. 2000 obviously) - and even then it's hard to find any who'll ship to Denmark.

My own ceiling height is 8½', but I'm still contemplating a portable set-up (e.g. like the one linked to a few posts back) since we usually play here or at a friend's house, so I'll have to take that into account too. I'd also rather not have to drill into the ceiling, since it's rock-hard steel-bar reinforced concrete. 
Instead I'll probably go with the "portable box" (or a similar set-up) or maybe something based on IKEAs Stolmen line.

EDIT:
Nope, the Visualapex people that rjdafoe bought from don't ship internationally. I could have it shipped to my cousin in Florida and then have her send it to me, but I'm unsure what that'll cost me in international shipping.
But yeah, the free extra bulb is definitely a good deal.

EDIT 2:
Just did a little research. Even with international shipping the entire thing (the L220 from above) would probably hit $600 at the most (that's for 11 lbs. USPS Priority Mail International). If it's snatched up in customs there might be an extra 25% VAT charge + maybe an extra % in duties (although from the list available to me I can't figure out what category a projector would fit into - laptops and consoles (xbox etc.) are 0% duties, while digital cameras are either 4.9% or 12.5%... I so love the straight forward import rules  )


----------



## Steel_Wind

GentleGiant said:


> I can't seem to find the Samsung L220 anywhere in Europe, only the L200 (haven't done a step-by-step comparison, but it seems like it's only the Lumens that's different - 2200 vs. 2000 obviously) - and even then it's hard to find any who'll ship to Denmark.
> 
> My own ceiling height is 8½', but I'm still contemplating a portable set-up (e.g. like the one linked to a few posts back) since we usually play here or at a friend's house, so I'll have to take that into account too. I'd also rather not have to drill into the ceiling, since it's rock-hard steel-bar reinforced concrete.
> Instead I'll probably go with the "portable box" (or a similar set-up) or maybe something based on IKEAs Stolmen line.
> 
> EDIT:
> Nope, the Visualapex people that rjdafoe bought from don't ship internationally. I could have it shipped to my cousin in Florida and then have her send it to me, but I'm unsure what that'll cost me in international shipping.
> But yeah, the free extra bulb is definitely a good deal.
> 
> EDIT 2:
> Just did a little research. Even with international shipping the entire thing (the L220 from above) would probably hit $600 at the most (that's for 11 lbs. USPS Priority Mail International). If it's snatched up in customs there might be an extra 25% VAT charge + maybe an extra % in duties (although from the list available to me I can't figure out what category a projector would fit into - laptops and consoles (xbox etc.) are 0% duties, while digital cameras are either 4.9% or 12.5%... I so love the straight forward import rules  )




I'd go for the Florida relay for the L220, but that's me.

In my opinion, you will greatly regret using the portable cage system noted above. There is, however, more than one way to skin that cat.

The Stolmen idea is a superior one, provided the screws/spring holds. If it does not, there is another, similar approach:

Look in whatever passes for the equivalent of a Home Depot in Denmark. What you are looking for is a portable beam/ceiling support.  They come in varying lengths and are used in renovations. The one you want should be about 8' long or thereabouts. Most of the device is painted yellow and made of steel. It unscrews to collpase can be screwed to lengthen the overall support, too. If you recall spring loaded tension mounted cabinets for bathrooms (a very '70s item), it works in the same manner, but it far more sturdy as it uses tension created by a large screw and not a simple spring.

(If it is too short for your 8' 6" ceiling, put a block of wood, cinder block or some other support on the floor to help bridge that 6" gap.)

In use, this vertical support is screwed out, lengthening the overall bar and screwing it into place, vertically between ceiling and floor. When done, you have a strong vertical support wherever you need it, held firmly in place with northing more than pressure. To this, you add a horizontal bar of arbitrary length (7 feet, say) by simply drilling a hole with a _slightly_ larger diameter than that of the extendable portion on the vertical support.  Slip the horizontal bar over the part of the threaded steel screw before the vertical support is screwed into place. (the rest of the verticla support bar is significantly larger in diameter, so this part acts as a rest for your horizontal bar, preventing slippage.)   

In the result, you now have a horizontal arm of whatever length you need which can be easily maneuvered by swinging it over your table, while the vertical support is comfortably out of the way of players and DM both. You then attach your projector to the horizontal arm in whatever way seems best to you.

The entire thiing can be taken down in moments and transported to where you need it. There is no drilling required in your ceiling. Most importantly, there is nothing on the table which obstructs your players view of the projected map.

The projection cage in the link above is a really impractical idea imo as it discounts the comfort of the players. It's just far too awkward to use at the table -- and too expensive to boot. People sits down and need to look at each other and interact feely with the map, not have support bars  in their way as they are trying to play a RPG.  The vertical support bar and the horizontal arm described above is entirely out of everyone's way and the horizontal arm itself is about 3" lower than the ceiling. It's not something that anybody is going to notice or have to look around as they play your game.

You could create an arm for holging the projector over your table using a "C" clamp to hold the arm to the table as well. Very large clamps are available for use in wrodlworking projects to hold wood together as it is glued, etc. While it would take up some room at the table, at least it would not be something people have to look through as they are gazing at one another over table  -- nor would they have to reach around it to interact with your map.

I am sure you are well able to consider other options to suspend your projector as well which are more convenient and user friendly than the cage in the link above.


----------



## GentleGiant

Of course, if I had the money I'd buy the Sanyo PLC-XL51 - the "big brother" to the PLC-XL50 but now with 2700 Lumens, SD card slot, networking capabilities and so on.
This is the Sanyo that has been mentioned earlier in the thread, with a throw distance of only 3-15"!
"Only" $2,299.-


----------



## BruntFCA

*NWN Toolset and going LCD route*

_I was interested to learn what people claim they did with the *Neverwinter Nights* toolset ONE._

I fired this up, and yes its nice and fast, but the grid size it totally off. One grid is about 100 feet? Now I can make a "huge" area in the toolset at about 32by24 grid. I can them "zoom" out and pretend that these are 5 foot grids. However. This has a number of problems.

*1* The graphics are not really "scaled" to this level. So at this extreme zoom out, a lot of the effects and images are frankly useless.

*2* The grid itself is the most annoying bright red colour, totally *ruins* the map.

Now if there was some way of getting a grid onto it, maybe some transparent photoshop file that you can put into a texture? I don't know, but since the original pictures have been taken down, I have trouble believing that the NWN toolset in its current state would be any good at all.


As for the VTT. I think I'm going the LCD route, less hassle, less DIY. Also the players hands wont cast shadows on the map.

I'm going to simply buy a thin mount for about $40, take the platsic casing off the LCD, and then mount; the mount fixing itself will be screwed into a base of wood. Job done; I will worry about making a nice "box" for it afterwards.


----------



## Steel_Wind

BruntFCA said:


> _I was interested to learn what people claim they did with the *Neverwinter Nights* toolset ONE._
> 
> I fired this up, and yes its nice and fast, but the grid size it totally off. One grid is about 100 feet? Now I can make a "huge" area in the toolset at about 32by24 grid. I can them "zoom" out and pretend that these are 5 foot grids. However. This has a number of problems.
> 
> *1* The graphics are not really "scaled" to this level. So at this extreme zoom out, a lot of the effects and images are frankly useless.
> 
> *2* The grid itself is the most annoying bright red colour, totally *ruins* the map.
> 
> Now if there was some way of getting a grid onto it, maybe some transparent photoshop file that you can put into a texture? I don't know, but since the original pictures have been taken down, I have trouble believing that the NWN toolset in its current state would be any good at all.




You are referring to the scaling issue of furnished interiors I presume? A grid square in NWN terms is, as I recall, about 32 feet or thereabouts? Something like that. 

For unfurnished interiors, this has few significiant graphical effects as you can use zoom to get rid of the issue. It becomes an issue only for when you are then looking to furnish your interiors.  Once you do, the scaling you meant to "fix" by zooming is shown to be clearly off once again.

The solution to this is to turn to NWVault. You want to download a few hak paks and a utility to create another custom one.

The first haks you grab are the "stripped" tileset haks, which are all the interior tilesets used in NWN1, with all of the furniture stipped out of each of the tiles.

This removes most of the distracting graphical scaling issues automatically for you. They vanish.

To re-add the furniture, you then use a utility on NWVault's site to autoscale placeable furniture to the "correct" size for one tile = 5' or 10'. You then use that placeable hak as your default in the toolset for all your placeable furnishings. It sounds hard and "techy" - but it's quite easy to do.

The scaling problems you mention then completely go away. 

As for the grid being an issue for you, I don't use the Grid in the toolset. I project on to a white surface which has a pre-printed 1" grid on it. My grid is therefore always correct  (and is never red) 

Anyways, that's how I have dealt with those issues. Stipped tilesets, resized placeables and an external grid. When all of those features are present, the issues you identify are reduced to -10 hits and promptly die. It's well worth it to me as the speed with which I can build and detail a map in NWN1 is rather _breathtakingly fast_, if I do say so myself. I expect I can lay down an external area and detail it NWN1 faster than most people can draw it on a battlemat. 

These are, btw, rarely issues which crop up for use in external areas. The main issue in external area is the "gridlock"  look, where NWN's square grid sructure can look "off" and too tidy when there are multiple buldings on the map that are near one another. In cities it's fine, but in towns and rural area? Not so much.

Again, there is a hakpak to download off of NWVault to fix this. I recommend using placeable buildings instead of tile based buildings so the "grid" layout in NWN1 goes away and you can have buildings put down at arbitrary angles, rotations and distances from each other in a completely arbitrary manner wherever you want.

Again - for those familiar with NWN1 custom content, placeable buildings frequently broke AI pathfinding when used to play the module in a computer game. For our purposes however, we don't need in game pathfinding and AI to work bug free because we aren't using the Toolset to create a computer game. It just needs to look pretty in the toolset for use as a projected map 

Placeables buldings is the silver bullet for this problem.



> As for the VTT. I think I'm going the LCD route, less hassle, less DIY. Also the players hands wont cast shadows on the map.
> 
> I'm going to simply buy a thin mount for about $40, take the platsic casing off the LCD, and then mount; the mount fixing itself will be screwed into a base of wood. Job done; I will worry about making a nice "box" for it afterwards.



Do be sure to post pictures of this approach. I am greatly interested. In my view, the Dynex 40" 1080p flat panel at Best Buy for $499 seems to be the most practical and affordable candidate for such an LCD approach.

Please post pics when you have it up and running. I'd love to see it installed in a table "in game".

I have no doubt that this is a very viable approach if constructed properly. In the coming years, especially as flat panels drop in price more, this will become the default choice in preference to projection.

Not sure we are there _quite_ yet, but I certainly am very interested in what you plan to do.


----------



## BruntFCA

Thanks Steel for the awesome reply. In finally got HotU installed ( was only at NWN1 ) last night. Was a huge hassle due to lost keys, scratched CDs. updates issues etc etc, but I got it all together in the end; I even had to "best buy" a new CD set for NWN though :-(

I'm going to zip it all up into a "Never Delete" directory and archive it off, I never want to go through that hassle again!

Could you re-up or attach some screenshots of what you've done?

I'm off to try your suggestions, I do like the "fire pits" in the toolset a lot. Cheers.


----------



## BruntFCA

Actually, do you have a name for that resize utility?

Taken a look on the vault and hit the NWN forums. People there only seem to know about "monster" resizers.


----------



## Steel_Wind

BruntFCA said:


> Actually, do you have a name for that resize utility?
> 
> Taken a look on the vault and hit the NWN forums. People there only seem to know about "monster" resizers.




If you have found a thread on monster scaling, that's the  resizer to use for the placeables as well. The NWN Mdl format for placeables is the same and scales the same way. 

I believe you will need to export the mdl in ascii format, however, as you will not be able to scale a model that if it is is left in binary mode.


----------



## BruntFCA

Hi Steel,

I got the monsters to re-size using the "tail" trick no problem. However I've mad several posts over on the NWN forums about *placeable* scaling. Most people think its not easy to do.

I looked for an MDL ascii converter, the guy that made it has vanished...along with the tool. There's also some resizer app, but this needs to ascii version of the file, and although he's not vanished, the tool has not been updates for years, not even sure if it works.

I also did a search on the NWN directories for MDL files expecting to find 100s. There's only about 30 or so tiny files. Have they packed the MDL files into some sort of cab or something?

In a nutshell you sound very experienced with the toolset. As someone coming to this new, maybe a lot of the things you take for granted are not as easy as it appears. Certainly many of the tools of been discontinued. Do you have any copies of the tools you use; as this may be the only way for people to get them now.

I've also been playing with NWN2 toolset. I've had a  lot more luck since resizing anything is very easy. The only touble there is getting tilest versions with the annoying ceilings removed. These ruin the way a map looks top down.

Still I'd like to continue playing also with NWN if I can, since it's so easy to "carve" out dungeons as it were, as opposed to having to "lay tiles" as in NWN2. However, without some help or current working tools to re-scale the placeables it looks as if NWN could be a dead end for most people.

My efforts in NWN2 are coming along nicely however, I will likely start a new thread once I have enough to show for it. Cheers.

B


----------



## Steel_Wind

BruntFCA said:


> Hi Steel,
> 
> I got the monsters to re-size using the "tail" trick no problem. However I've mad several posts over on the NWN forums about *placeable* scaling. Most people think its not easy to do.




My mod team (DLA) was contracted by BioWare to create most of the art content for their NWN Premium module series. So yeah, I'm pretty familiar with the system - or was - I should say. It's been nearly 4 years since _Wyvern Crown of Cormyr_ was released.

The model files (and virtually everything else of use) are contained in the BioWare Information Files - or .bif archives.  Yes - they are in a .cab / .pak or other archive file in other games. In this case - it's a ".bif" 

You extract the placeable model files in binary format out of the bifs and convert to ascii format using NWNExplorer. The utility is available on NWVault. Here's a link to a version of it.

The original author of NWNExplorer, Torlack (Tim Smith), is no longer part of the community as he works for BioWare as part of BioWare's tools development team. Robious, (Gareth Hughes) who tweaked several aspects in the original tool is also no longer part of the community. He's one of the principal coders behind all graphics driver code at NVidia. 

If you try a version of NWNExplorer - you'll find it works fine.

In any event, there is no need to convert the file back to binary from ascii. The game loads an ascii mdl file just fine. Binary is a little more memory and processor friendly - but with the changes in hardware since the original design of the Aurora engine - you won't notice the difference. At all. (Indeed, even in 2002, it was pretty hard to notice the difference)

There was a rescaler for creatures initially that would work for placeable purposes (not the tail trick - we added that trick towards the end of the patches for NWN around 1.67/68 or so.) Before that - you used an util to rescale the mdl geometry. We generally used NWMax but that can be a little intimidating to noobs.  

Try this instead:  MDL Scaler


----------



## falcarrion

I have added a few pics of my portable VTT in my photo album area.
I'll be adding more pics soon.


----------



## Aloïsius

LED TV panels are becoming more and more affordable, and they are way thinner than classical LCD or plasma... Sure, they are still 50 to 80% more expensive than classical LCD, but you can find some 40' LED screen for less than 700€ (or $).


----------



## Hague

I checked it out, that peg-board that people use for hanging tools on is exactly mapped out into one inch squares. A large sheet of that makes a great imaging surface and it's already got squares. Comes in 4 x 8 sheets. Glue it to your plywood set up.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

This is an awesome thread!

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with something like this? Seems to me that the portability and mounting issues could be instantly solved with some duct tape?


----------



## jodyjohnson

You can't see a 30 lumen projector image with the lights on.

You can't see your dice, character sheet or notes with the lights off.


----------



## OnlineDM

So, I'm working on a projector rig myself right now (details in this thread here on EN World as well as on my blog), and while I'm currently working on a tripod approach that I can take to my local store and to conventions, I'm also interested in the single-pole approach.  My big question is, how would I actually mount the projector to the pole?  

I like the idea of a heavy steel plate that sits in front of the GM (clamped to the table), with a heavy pipe coming up out of it, and the projector mounted to the top of that pipe.  But how would I do the mounting?


----------



## JDragon

OnlineDM said:


> So, I'm working on a projector rig myself right now (details in this thread here on EN World as well as on my blog), and while I'm currently working on a tripod approach that I can take to my local store and to conventions, I'm also interested in the single-pole approach.  My big question is, how would I actually mount the projector to the pole?
> 
> I like the idea of a heavy steel plate that sits in front of the GM (clamped to the table), with a heavy pipe coming up out of it, and the projector mounted to the top of that pipe.  But how would I do the mounting?




Take a look at the bottom of your projector, if its designed to be mounted it will have several (3-4) threaded holes in the bottom.  Check your owners guide for screw/thread size that you will need to work with your projector.  Make sure the bolts you get are not to long as they could go to far in to the projector and cause problems.

Their are mounts that are available for ceiling mounting etc.  However with your set up I would suggest you build a custom mount.

For my ceiling mount I built a rig out of aircraft grade alum i got at my local home depot.  Its a square frame with holes drilled to fit the mounting holes in my projector.  I have spacers between the mount and the projector to help with airflow.  For my set up I have a bar attached to the frame that my mirror is mounted to.  To connect mine to the ceiling I have large lag bolts coming through the ceiling that go through the mount.

For your set up I would do the pole like you are talking about.  Then build a frame like I mentioned above and then look for hardware that will allow you to connect that frame to your pole.  Preferably in a way that you can adjust height as needed.  You will probably want to build in some spacers like i did to have a little space between the parts to allow you to work and for airflow.  Just remember what I mentioned about the issues with heat rising up through the projector with that lens down set up.

Hope this made sense and helps, if you want to see pics let me know and I'll see what i can get for ya.


----------



## FoxWander

jodyjohnson said:


> You can't see a 30 lumen projector image with the lights on.
> 
> You can't see your dice, character sheet or notes with the lights off.




So how do you figure out how many lumens you need? My game setup (see pic) gives us plenty of reading light below the map, but can be fairly dim above. I would think we don't need a really bright projector to give us good results- but how do you figure out how bright is bright enough?


----------



## OnlineDM

I've just gotten my hands on a 2,500 lumens projector, and the map that it projects seems to be plenty visible in normal light (though my particular projector needs more resolution, sigh).


----------



## OnlineDM

JDragon - that's great information, thank you!  It sounds like there's still going to be a lot of custom metalworking involved.  I'm not sure how good I'll be at that, but I'm willing to give it a go.  And yes, if you can get some pictures up, that would be great!


----------



## Steel_Wind

Get a projector mount off of ebay for about $20-$30. No custom metal work required.


----------



## OnlineDM

@Steel_Wind: Thanks! I had pretty much arrived at that conclusion thanks to falcarrion in the other thread about my setup - he provided some very helpful pictures. So much to learn!


----------



## FoxWander

(This is a cross-post, slightly edited to make more sense, from OnlineDM's portable projector setup thread. Falcarrion got a 3M pocket projector that I was very curious to know about because I think it's low lumens might work with my setup- see pic one page back- or the link below. Anyway, I moved this because it's more relevant here. I'm sure others are curious about pico-projectors as well.)



falcarrion said:


> My test so far are not good. The pocket projectors don't have any zoom capabilities. to zoom out you have to move the unit away from the surface.
> The farther you move it a way the lower the lumens.
> With your setup it may work because of how dark it is above the surface, but you would still need about 2 feet above the table for a decent size projection.
> 
> I still have more testing to do. I haven't tried using a mirror to reflect it onto the table yet.




Well, I've got just under 4 feet above the map surface to work with. You posted [edit] above[/edit] so you've probably seen this, but here's the pic of my set up again. That floor lamp in the back (60 watt bulb) is for the DM (the comfy seat at the back) and so we have a little MORE light on the map. If we turned it off it would be pretty dark. (I tried taking a pic with it off and the under-map lights kind of over-expose everything so you can't really see what it's like.) If you can, I'd love to see some pics of your results with the pocket projector to see what it actually looks like. 

I think I'll cross post and move this to the other thread cause we're kind of off-topic from OnlineDM's original post.


----------



## falcarrion

Fox,
I'll try and get some pics up tomarrow.
Have you considered lowering the middle table and putting rope lights just under the lip of the table?  They may shed enough light for the players to read and roll dice with.


----------



## Playsurface

*RPG-ing on a Huge, Low-Cost MultiTouch Table*

I hope I am not condemned as a lich-king reviving this long-deceased thread, but I just saw it for the first time now.

Check out this video (Playsurface: Tabletop RPG - YouTube) associated with our touch table kickstarter (Playsurface: The Affordable Multi-Touch Computing Table by Len White — Kickstarter).

It seems to be along the lines of what you guys were working on.

Any suggestions of RPG-related applications we could implement on the Playsurface?


----------



## AeroDm

Playsurface said:


> I hope I am not condemned as a lich-king reviving this long-deceased thread, but I just saw it for the first time now.
> 
> Check out this video (Playsurface: Tabletop RPG - YouTube) associated with our touch table kickstarter (Playsurface: The Affordable Multi-Touch Computing Table by Len White — Kickstarter).
> 
> It seems to be along the lines of what you guys were working on.
> 
> Any suggestions of RPG-related applications we could implement on the Playsurface?



Wow. That is awesome stuff and amazing how far the tech has come in just a few short years. When this thread first started it was more than $1000-1500 for a projector and now we're talking about the same for a tabletop touch surface.


----------



## vorp

I'm one of the Playsurface developers. If anyone has any questions about its functionality here on ENWorld I'd love to field them. There's also a bunch of movies on our Kickstarter home page showing examples of it in action.
It's pretty straightforward to write multi-touch Flash apps for it to do custom gaming stuff as well.
I'm a programmer and a gamer and a (wanna be) fantasy artist so getting Playsurfaces into gaming is a very exciting prospect for me.
Thanks.
-Len


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Welcome to ENWorld!


----------



## DonTadow

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Welcome to ENWorld!




No problem, i almost forgot this is where it all started. This setup is now more common place thanks to steel. I have pretty much nixed the table all together and through up an 80 inch screen. every player has a mouse and a laser pointer, though now everyone's just comfortable playing off tablets and laptops.


----------



## 3d6+15

Playsurface said:


> I hope I am not condemned as a lich-king reviving this long-deceased thread, but I just saw it for the first time now.




You might be a lich-king, but what does that make people like me who have been subscribed to this thread for seven years?

I guess we are the threads devoted worshipers.  Any stirrings of unlife in our dark god make us come back and comment.

Nice Kickstarter find.  I'm definitely going to take a look.


----------



## Playsurface

*Playsurface Running MultiTouch ARC Maps*

Another movie of Playsurface showing multitouch zoom, pan, and rotate plus Devin Night tokens!

Playsurface: RPG Maps - YouTube

The kickstarter is funded!  Only one more day to get an order in!


----------



## falcarrion

Very nice. Have you thought of doing a table using a lcd screen instead of a projector?


----------



## Oryan77

falcarrion said:


> Very nice. Have you thought of doing a table using a lcd screen instead of a projector?




I'd be very interested in an easy to set up touch screen contraption that I can just plug my tv into and have it work. I've seen videos on homemade touch screens but it seems like too much work for me and I probably couldn't get it to work anyway.

I'd love to get Maptool to work on my LCD tv as a touch screen.


----------



## falcarrion

Oryan77 said:


> I'd be very interested in an easy to set up touch screen contraption that I can just plug my tv into and have it work. I've seen videos on homemade touch screens but it seems like too much work for me and I probably couldn't get it to work anyway.
> 
> I'd love to get Maptool to work on my LCD tv as a touch screen.




They do make multitouch overlays for tvs.


----------



## Chris Knapp

alveena6 said:


> I love the video game but not any type if video game only Disney video games.



Reported

*Mod note:* it is good to report spammers.  It is good to note in the thread that you've done so.  But, please, don't quote links they include, 'cause if you do, someone's gotta go back and edit them out again, or the spammer gets what he or she wants.  ~Umbran


----------



## Alan Shutko

Oryan77 said:


> I'd be very interested in an easy to set up touch screen contraption that I can just plug my tv into and have it work.




They exist, and can work well... But they are expensive.

IR Touch Bezel, Interactive Overlay, Interactive Frame | Pro Display


----------



## JDragon

Well I'm going to drag this one out of the depths again, I just wish I could say it was for good news. :-(

I recently moved across the country and apparently my projector did not like the move.  

I set it up this evening to do some tests for a new table for a rear projection setup idea I had and it would not power on.  I checked the power cord and its getting power, but not sure what else I can do.

I got it for x-mas in 06' so got almost 6 years of use out of it.  I may take it to a local computer repair place to see if they might be able to do something but I'm not holding my breath.

So now I need to figure out where do I go from here?  Another projector or do I try to go for the TV option?

I was getting a 40" by 30" image from my old projector and would like to get close to that.  I plan for my table to be 4' by 8' or very close to that.  We are renting for a few years so a ceiling mount is not very viable till I get my own place again.  The upside is I have a room I can permanently set up a game table in.

Thanks

JD


----------



## Radiating Gnome

JDragon said:


> ...
> So now I need to figure out where do I go from here?  Another projector or do I try to go for the TV option?
> ...




I'm going to pitch hard for the TV option. We're 6 months into playing on the TV surface, and it's almost all good.  It's amazing what a relief it is to get rid of the noise projectors kick out, for one thing.  And depending upon your rig, it's actually a lot simpler than the projector to deal with.  

The biggest problems we have, at this point, have been little things -- breaking the habit of rolling dice on the TV, for one thing.   

-rg


----------



## JDragon

Radiating Gnome said:


> I'm going to pitch hard for the TV option. We're 6 months into playing on the TV surface, and it's almost all good.  It's amazing what a relief it is to get rid of the noise projectors kick out, for one thing.  And depending upon your rig, it's actually a lot simpler than the projector to deal with.
> 
> The biggest problems we have, at this point, have been little things -- breaking the habit of rolling dice on the TV, for one thing.
> 
> -rg




Thanks for the response.  I'm leaning toward the TV but want to hear/ see what others are doing.  Oh and I gotta get the wife to go for it. 

What kind / size TV are you using?

I have heard about some people removing them from the case to be able to use PC fans to help with cooling and such.

Any chance you have any pictures of how you have it mounted and your table you could share?

Thanks

JD


----------



## Radiating Gnome

JDragon said:


> Any chance you have any pictures of how you have it mounted and your table you could share?




I've thrown on a couple of pictures so you can get an idea.  The table is two crappy plastic folding tables (legs bungeed together for a more stable base). The TV is one designed to be mounted on a wall, so it lays pretty flat, but I needed to put books under the four corners -- luckily, the 4e books softcover books are just the right size.  

I've cut a couple of pieces of foam board to fit into the depression of the screen when we're not playing, since the TV stays on the table full time.  I have enough space beneath it to run the power and hdmi cables.  I've also picked up some mylar film that I've cut to fit the screen surface -- it offers a measure of protection against pen marks, and cuts down on the glare a little (not that glare is much of a problem, really). 

Here's the TV I got: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0077E493G/ref=oh_details_o01_s01_i00


----------



## JDragon

Thanks for sharing the pics.

If I went the TV route I was planning on mounting it flush with the table top (with a sheet of lexan over it ), with another layer of wood that would go over it to set up other games.

Have you had any issues with it being on its back vs upright?

Thanks

JD


----------



## Radiating Gnome

JDragon said:


> If I went the TV route I was planning on mounting it flush with the table top (with a sheet of lexan over it ), with another layer of wood that would go over it to set up other games.
> 
> Have you had any issues with it being on its back vs upright?




First, no, we have not had any problems with it being on it's back, although you need to make sure that if you do this you get an LCD/LED TV, not a plasma screen -- plasma screens must stay upright to work.  

I have plans for a table I'm hoping to have built that would allow the TV to be raised and lowered -- and covered up when it's not in use.  I did, however, do a lot of serious thinking about the idea of putting lexan over the screen, and decided against it because of the distortion in position it will create for players sitting in different places around the table.  

Think about this: You've got maybe 1/8th of an inch between the screen and the edge of the frame it's in -- then you're probably going to need at least 1/4" lexan to be sturdy enough avoid sagging, etc.  That means that you've got almost 1/2" between the bottom of your figures and the things you're looking at on the map.  



This ugly drawing -- which is slightly exaggerated for effect -- illustrates the problem.  If you have two players sitting on opposite sides of the table, looking down at a 45 degree angle, they're going to see that mini in VERY different places on the map.  45 degrees makes the math super easy --- if the figure is elevated 3/8 of an inch above the screen, it will appear 3/8 away from it's true position to a player viewing it at that angle. But the player on the other side will see it 3/8 of an inch off it's true position in the OTHER direction -- so they'll see it 3/4 of an inch off from where the other player sees it.  

So, my dream table is one that lets me raise the TV from below up to flush with the table -- and when the TV is lowered there are leaves that I can drop into place to turn it into a more "normal" table. 

GeekChic has a version of this basic idea -- or, they had one at Gencon.  The TV rested in a portal-style table, in a rig with some hydraulics that would allow it to be elevated up -- I don't think it came quite up to vertical. I'm not sure what they achieve with that functionality, but with the TV laid flat, the leaves could be laid out on the table to conceal the TV. 

Still, they didn't have anything thick enough on top of the TV that would create any distortion.  

I might be totally wrong -- and you might find that it works for you, but I seriously encourage you to find a way to experiment with the idea before you invest any serious resources in a plan that includes that sort of cover over the TV. 

-rg


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## JDragon

Thanks for the great information.  I had not thought about the distortion a cover would cause.

I had heard the plasma could be an issue but thanks for confirming and indicating what would be safe to use.

Maybe I will just do a small lip around where the TV is to prevent drinks from getting to it if spilled.

Food for thought.  

JD


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## Man in the Funny Hat

JDragon said:


> I got it for x-mas in 06' so got almost 6 years of use out of it.  I may take it to a local computer repair place to see if they might be able to do something but I'm not holding my breath.



Worst that can happen is that a repair shop will tell you it'll cost too much to even look at it or that repairs will amount to as much as a new projector anyway.  But it could also be something simple or even easy to fix.  First thing that occurs to me is BULB.  It might be a model that won't do anything if the bulb is burned out - or the TIMER measuring bulb life has run out.  It might be a bad fan.  Most projectors aren't gonna do much if they detect that fan doesn't work cuz they don't wanna melt themselves down from the bulb heat without it.  If you get no lights or activity at all though the first suspect is power supply.  If so then a lot will depend on the make and model as to whether a replacement power supply is readily available and at what cost.  If it's otherwise dead to you anyway then it's not gonna hurt a thing to lug it to a shop and get a second opinion.


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## WampusCat43

We just finished our 4th session with a 55" Coby LED and the results have been excellent.  It's less than 2" thick, and the power/HDMI ports point to the side, so that they don't raise the playing field at all.  I had a sheet of plexiglass cut to cover the whole thing (I could have had it cut to fit down in the frame and rest right on top of the screen, but that would have only gained us about 1/4" and exposed us to the possibility of someone spilling a drink down into the edge of it.  And well, some of us like to drink).  Because the TV is so flat, it sits low enough on the table that discerning which square you're on has not been a problem.  1300 square inches of gaming good goodness.


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## Radiating Gnome

Pics? Love to see your setup. 

-rg


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## WampusCat43

Because you asked, and I enjoy your blog, I'm going to make a feeble attempt here.  Our regular camera broke, so these are cellphone images.

The first image is a map I cobbled together to depict a village in a swamp.  I'd like to give credit to cartographers, but don't recall them.  The village is on the left, and I added a dock, ship and warehouse on the right.  We had a titanic battle with a tribe of lizardmen recently, which included my first kill using the DNDNext rules.

Shows the image from the side, hand inserted to show that the whole thing is only 3 fingers high.

Our heroes enjoy a rousing game of online Ticket to Ride.  I could use HO gauge trains on this thing.

Ugh.  From table level.  The black in the background is the set itself, and the grey line is the plexiglass.  There's just enough clearance that you can slide papers under it, but dice won't get away from you (much).

Here you see the same angle, showing the power cord and HDMI cable coming out the side.


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## WampusCat43

Because you asked, and I enjoy your blog, I'm going to make a feeble attempt here.  Our regular camera broke, so these are cellphone images.

The first image is a map I cobbled together to depict a village in a swamp.  I'd like to give credit to cartographers, but don't recall them.  The village is on the left, and I added a dock, ship and warehouse on the right.  We had a titanic battle with a tribe of lizardmen recently, which included my first kill using the DNDNext rules.
View attachment 56384
Shows the image from the side, hand inserted to show that the whole thing is only 3 fingers high.  The whiteboard in the background is our former table, and we were amused to find the results of a fantasy football draft we'd had years ago on the other side (Jon Kitna - really?).
View attachment 56385
Our heroes enjoy a rousing game of online Ticket to Ride.  I could use HO gauge trains on this thing.
View attachment 56386
From table level.  The black in the background is the set itself, and the grey line is the plexiglass.  There's just enough clearance that you can slide papers under the TV, but dice won't get away from you.
View attachment 56387
Here you see the same angle, showing the power cord and HDMI cable coming out the side.
View attachment 56388


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## WampusCat43

Sorry for the double post.  Just trying to clarify the original.


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## JDragon

Great pics, thanks for sharing.

Along with working on replacing my projector I'm working on planning / building a custom game table.

My plan is to build it so the TV screen sits level with the top of the table, making sure there is enough room for books, dice and character sheets around the table.

What if any suggestions, pit falls, etc do those that have used TV's in this manner have?

JD


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## WampusCat43

I thought about cutting a hole in the table to fit the TV down in, but thought the chances of screwing up the hole (plus having to support the TV somehow) weren't worth gaining the extra 2".  With the plexiglass, the players can put their stuff on top and roll the dice anywhere they like (although I'm seeing a need for some Windex already).


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## Radiating Gnome

Thanks for posting the pics, [MENTION=12027]WampusCat43[/MENTION]!

I've been talking to a local cabinetmaker about having a table built, myself, along the same lines. I had imagined something like cargo straps attached to the underside of the table -- two of them, on either side of the hole for the TV. The TV could be slung in them, and the straps could be used to raise or lower the TV.  

Here's the ugly sketch I made to tell the guy what I was thinking:



I haven't heard from the guy in months, so I don't know that it's going to happen, though.   And this idea needs a lot of refinement -- you would want some sort of mechanism that would let the straps be raised and lowered in sync.  And there would be an insert that would cover the TV hole. But the strap idea seemed like a great idea to me before I really started looking at the TVs -- I was imagining a much less flat and uniform back, on that needed a very forgiving cradle to rest in. 

-rg


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## JDragon

Well I just got the go ahead on getting the TV for this project. 

Now I just need to find the best price I can for a 50' 60' LCD/LED TV.  I'm hoping to find an slightly older model so I'm not paying for the newest thing out.  Any suggestions on the best place to find one?


I need to get a work space cleaned out in the garage first and then will be building a small table to hold a lamp for my wife's office before I go get started on the table.  Which actually works because it will give me a chance to test out some ideas I have for my gaming table.

I've got a basic outline in my head for what I want to do, I'm just working on figuring out how all the parts will go together.

Currently my wife and I are renting but how to buy something in 2-3 years so I need to make sure the table can and will survive a move.  I also would like to give it a little flexibility and design it to be used at both coffee and normal table height so I can adjust if the opportunity presents its self to get some couches as I prefer sitting on the couch to game vs at a normal table if I can.  

I'm picturing it actually being multiple parts to help with the moving / flexibility.  

Going from the bottom up...
Table height extension for legs.  (Plus these might add to the stability, see below*)
Coffee table height legs and base.*
Removable frame for holding TV. (this way down the road if I get a different TV I rework/ build this and the top instead of the whole thing)  (This will bolt to the coffee table base)
Top with space for TV, I plan to have the TV screen level or just above the rest of the table.** (this will bolt to coffee table base & TV frame)
Cover to go over TV and table top for miniature and board gaming.

* I'm trying to work out how much of an overhang I can have with the table top and not worry about someone putting to much weight on the edge and it flipping?  Any thoughts or information on this?

** I'm also trying to work out how much space to build in between the edge of the TV and the edge of the table for players / DM to put their stuff with out covering the TV?  I was thinking around 16 inches but I'm not set on this.  Any suggestions?  


I realize this is not a simple design, but that is just not the way I have done things in the past so why start now?  :-D

I hope to share my progress as I go once I get started.  Not sure if I will hijack this thread or start a new one.

JD


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## Radiating Gnome

Absolutely share your progress.  

IMO, you can get away with about 12 inches for players, but 16 will give them a nice amount of room for books/sheets and dice and drinks.  

Also, take a look at this link (My friend [MENTION=2028]Arksorn[/MENTION] drew my attention to it: http://cyderak.deviantart.com/gallery/)


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## JDragon

Thanks for the thoughts on space for players.  I'm also trying to decide if I want to make one end longer for the GM since they have more stuff to keep up with.

That will be the upside of doing my own table, I can do it how I want. 

Those are some great pics, I can only hope mine looks that nice when I am done with it.

JD


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## WampusCat43

You have to balance how much room to leave the players with the amount of reaching they'll have to do to move their figures.  The further away they sit, the harder it is to see exactly what square their fig is on.  IMO, I'd rather be right on top of the action.  I have a guy who could build me a table like "cyderak's", but once you put your players that far away, you're stuck with it.


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## apprentice

wish i could see the links in the original post. none of them open for some reason. 

if you're going to make a table, i recommend a plasma tv. they have a glass surface, which is easier to clean, and more durable.

something like this would make me lose interest in hirstarts molds... FOREVER.


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## Radiating Gnome

I'm pretty sure you can't use plasma tvs horizontally, but I could be wrong.  That's what I came up with in the research on my TV setup.


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## jhunton

WOW THATS SOME TABLE.


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## WampusCat43

That's what I was told about plasmas as well.  A pity, since they're so cheap these days.

One thing I've noticed since switching to this setup (and this may have been mentioned before) - You can get to the point where you spend a lot of time finding just the right map for an upcoming encounter, or changing the encounter to fit a map you have.  It's either that or create the map yourself, which can never be as good as some of the stuff on cartographers, for instance.  I think I've spoiled my players already.


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## Radiating Gnome

Yeah, that's an easy trap to fall into.  

At the moment, our group is running Into the Unknown (one of the very earliest 1e adventures) with it'sold school blue & white very simple map -- and we're using scanned versions of those maps (with their 10' squares) on the TV screen we play on. And it's fine.  Sure, more realistic maps are nice, but the TV makes it faster and easier to make quick ad hoc maps, too, if you've got any facility with the tools at all.  

So, do your best to not feel limited by nice maps -- but take advantage of them when you can. 

-rg


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## Nytmare

WampusCat43 said:


> One thing I've noticed since switching to this setup (and this may have been mentioned before) - You can get to the point where you spend a lot of time finding just the right map for an upcoming encounter, or changing the encounter to fit a map you have.  It's either that or create the map yourself, which can never be as good as some of the stuff on cartographers, for instance.  I think I've spoiled my players already.




Remember, although it's no guarantee that you're going to find someone to do it, that a lot of people at the Cartographers' Guild are hobbyist cartographers who enjoy making maps for the challenge of making them.  If nothing else, they might be able to point you in the right direction towards something that fits what you're looking for, or teach you a really simple trick to get the look you want.

Also, I always thought the "don't lay plasma screens flat" was because (especially during shipping) you might inadvertently let the weight of the TV rest on the fragile screen.  They're meant to ship with all the styrofoam protecting the ends and corners, and there's not much there structurally to prevent the thing from snapping itself in half.  Are there any TV pros out there who can answer that?


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## jcayer

Have you considered just using your family room TV?  We moved to the couch, family room TV and use Maptools with tokens.  The players each has a cheap laser pointer.  As a group, there is a wireless mouse so they can direct with the laser pointer, or move their token themselves
.  
We've tried half a dozen different options including mounting a projector from the ceiling down to the table, projecting on the wall, I even started build a table like the one by Cyderak.  It didn't work for us.  As I don't have a dedicated space, always having to assemble and disassemble stuff took too long and was generally a pain in the butt.

Moving to the family room setup, I put a small folding table near the TV for me(I'm GM), and they all spread out on the couch, coffee table, and tray table if they want.  I've got my laptop and there is an old PC hooked up to the TV.  Dead simple and like I said, no setup/take down.  Plus, the computer is convenient for streaming, etc.


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## Nytmare

jcayer said:


> Dead simple and like I said, no setup/take down.  Plus, the computer is convenient for streaming, etc.




After having one for the last 15 years, I can't imagine not having a dedicated game room.  It's the first thing I look for when I'm scoping out a new place to live...

Though I'm happy you found a setup that works, I secretly mourn for you.


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## Radiating Gnome

Nytmare said:


> After having one for the last 15 years, I can't imagine not having a dedicated game room.  It's the first thing I look for when I'm scoping out a new place to live...




Same here. I had the realtor trained to look for good game rooms in potential houses.  And in the house we've been in for just about a year now, I have a main floor game room -- no more basement dwelling!  

-rg


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## FickleGM

I love the idea of using the main TV with Maptools.


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## Nellisir

Radiating Gnome said:


> I haven't heard from the guy in months, so I don't know that it's going to happen, though.   And this idea needs a lot of refinement -- you would want some sort of mechanism that would let the straps be raised and lowered in sync.  And there would be an insert that would cover the TV hole. But the strap idea seemed like a great idea to me before I really started looking at the TVs -- I was imagining a much less flat and uniform back, on that needed a very forgiving cradle to rest in.
> 
> -rg



I don't think I'd go with straps; generally those would be fixed on one side and have some kind of ratchet on the other, so the tv is going to sag and then slide as you're lowering it.  I'd look at a solid cradle with some kind of threaded rod mechanism at the four corners; you probably won't get simultaneous vertical control, but you're only going a few inches, so it shouldn't be a big deal.  For the cradle, I'd do something solid with a soft insert to really support the tv, but still allow venting.  You might want to look at Rockler for possible mechanisms, starting with router table supplies and working out from there.  They probably have boards & forums that you could ask on as well.


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## JDragon

Nellisir said:


> I don't think I'd go with straps; generally those would be fixed on one side and have some kind of ratchet on the other, so the tv is going to sag and then slide as you're lowering it.  I'd look at a solid cradle with some kind of threaded rod mechanism at the four corners; you probably won't get simultaneous vertical control, but you're only going a few inches, so it shouldn't be a big deal.  For the cradle, I'd do something solid with a soft insert to really support the tv, but still allow venting.  You might want to look at Rockler for possible mechanisms, starting with router table supplies and working out from there.  They probably have boards & forums that you could ask on as well.




One of my players suggested picking up a wall mount for the specific TV you are using and then use it in conjunction with a threaded rod mechanism to adjust the height.

I expect it will depend on which TV I end up getting on how exactly I set it up.


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## Radiating Gnome

The plan -- with the straps -- was based on not really understanding just how flat the wall-mounted TVs can be these days.  The one I got is incredibly flat and thin.  

When I talked to the furniture guy, one of the options he was talking about as an alternative to a complex system for raising/lowering the TV, was to have a second table top.  

So, the idea is that you'd have one tabletop that was either one big piece or a couple of leaves that clic together.  These can be removed to reveal a hidden tabletop that has two levels -- the outer ring, which is what actually supports the leaves that were removed, and the lower level, set about two inches down, which can hold the TV.  

That would be mechanically much, much simpler -- no need for moving parts, etc.  

-rg


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## JDragon

Radiating Gnome said:


> The plan -- with the straps -- was based on not really understanding just how flat the wall-mounted TVs can be these days.  The one I got is incredibly flat and thin.
> 
> When I talked to the furniture guy, one of the options he was talking about as an alternative to a complex system for raising/lowering the TV, was to have a second table top.
> 
> So, the idea is that you'd have one tabletop that was either one big piece or a couple of leaves that clic together.  These can be removed to reveal a hidden tabletop that has two levels -- the outer ring, which is what actually supports the leaves that were removed, and the lower level, set about two inches down, which can hold the TV.
> 
> That would be mechanically much, much simpler -- no need for moving parts, etc.
> 
> -rg




The second level sounds like a good idea, my only concern would be if its solid what effect it would have on the TV being able to dissipate heat?  

I guess you could build in vents and even some fans if needed to keep it cool, but that just seems like more work to me.

My plan is very similar to what you have described in having a set of leaves to go over the RPG area to cover the TV and allow for other games with out worrying about scratching the TV.


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## Nellisir

JDragon said:


> The second level sounds like a good idea, my only concern would be if its solid what effect it would have on the TV being able to dissipate heat?




I don't think it would be much worse than putting it against the wall or in a cabinet.


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## Nellisir

Radiating Gnome said:


> When I talked to the furniture guy, one of the options he was talking about as an alternative to a complex system for raising/lowering the TV, was to have a second table top.
> 
> So, the idea is that you'd have one tabletop that was either one big piece or a couple of leaves that clic together.  These can be removed to reveal a hidden tabletop that has two levels -- the outer ring, which is what actually supports the leaves that were removed, and the lower level, set about two inches down, which can hold the TV.
> 
> That would be mechanically much, much simpler -- no need for moving parts, etc.




I thought about that, and would prefer it, but one of your tabletops is going to a be a few inches lower or higher than standard.  I personally don't think that's a big deal.


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## Radiating Gnome

Having played with the TV on the table for the past 9 months, I can tell you that it generates an incredibly small amount of heat (and noise).  

The "basin" or whatever that hold the TV would have to have some holes/gaps for cables, etc -- so it wouldn't be completely encased -- but I really don't think heat will be a problem.


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## falcarrion

Here is my setup. i created a frame from PVC pipeing.


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## falcarrion

here it is in the dark


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## Radiating Gnome

Pretty slick. How high above the TV does the glass sit?  

-rg


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## falcarrion

the plexi glass sits right on the tv


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## JDragon

Nice set up.

What size TV and if you don't mind how much did you get it for?

I'll be starting my search for a TV in the next few weeks.


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## falcarrion

40 inch off display for $375


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## JDragon

Thanks for the info.

I was able to complete step 1 of my custome gaming table today by picking up a 55" LED TV on sale for less than $700 after taxes.  It looks like I will get a 26" - 47" image.  It's not the 30" - 40" I was getting with my projector set up, but the resolution for my images should be better.

Now to finalize my designs for the table and start looking for supplies.

JDragon


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## JDragon

Question for those that have used or are currently using TV's to display their maps with the TV laying flat.

What if anything are you using to protect the screen?

Are you putting it directly on the screen or having it rest on the bezel of the TV?

Trying to figure out how to best protect my investment without damaging it and trying to minimize the impact on viewing the screen.


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## Oryan77

I built a stand out of pvc pipe and pvc pipe foam. I attached laptop fans to it that plug into the tv via USB cables. This helps keep it cool. I went to a plastics store and had them cut out a sheet of plexiglass to the size of my tv (the entire tv, not just the screen). I lay this flat on the surface of tv so the plexiglass is on the edges of the tv and not touching the screen. Depending on the size of the tv, the plexiglass needs to be thick enough so it will not sag down in the middle when laying like this.

I also put a small square rubber bumper in the four corners on the plexiglass right where they would fit flush within the 4 corners of the TV screen. They don't quite touch the tv screen and they keep the plexiglass from shifting around. I originally just stuck the bumpers on the plexiglass since they were sticky on one side. But they did not hold when someone would bump the plexiglass while moving minis. So I ended up super gluing them to the plexiglass and now the plexiglass doesn't budge at all.

I really need to take pictures of this so it makes sense.


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## JDragon

Oryan77 said:


> I built a stand out of pvc pipe and pvc pipe foam. I attached laptop fans to it that plug into the tv via USB cables. This helps keep it cool. I went to a plastics store and had them cut out a sheet of plexiglass to the size of my tv (the entire tv, not just the screen). I lay this flat on the surface of tv so the plexiglass is on the edges of the tv and not touching the screen. Depending on the size of the tv, the plexiglass needs to be thick enough so it will not sag down in the middle when laying like this.
> 
> I also put a small square rubber bumper in the four corners on the plexiglass right where they would fit flush within the 4 corners of the TV screen. They don't quite touch the tv screen and they keep the plexiglass from shifting around. I originally just stuck the bumpers on the plexiglass since they were sticky on one side. But they did not hold when someone would bump the plexiglass while moving minis. So I ended up super gluing them to the plexiglass and now the plexiglass doesn't budge at all.
> 
> I really need to take pictures of this so it makes sense.




Oryan,

Thanks for the info, your description makes perfect sense.

I like the idea of the rubber bumpers to keep the plexi glass from moving around.

Did you have issues with heat and then add the fans or just opt to play it safe?


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## Radiating Gnome

For mine, I'm taking some risks because I was worried about distortion created by the plexiglass holding the minis up above the TV. 

I did buy a sheet of mylar film that I've cut to fit the screen of the TV.  It cuts down on glare, allows us to safely write on it with dry erase markers and pencils, but it's not a lot of protection against spills or impact.

I posted with pics and some details a few pages back in this monster: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Set-up-Evar&p=6083439&viewfull=1#post6083439

My concerns about distortion (might just be me being crazy): http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Set-up-Evar&p=6083951&viewfull=1#post6083951

-rg


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## Oryan77

I opted to play it safe. It is an LCD TV and I figure that it can't be good for the heat to just stay in the tv like that. There are vents built in for a reason and I assume that if the heat floats to the top right under the screen, it will make the screen that much hotter.

I actually went as far as to take the fans (2 fans) out of the case of the laptop and mount them so they blow directly into the vents of the tv when the tv sits on the stand. I took another laptop fan and placed it in the center of the tv where some smaller vents were. I didn't take the fans out of casing to this laptop fan.

I've used it for 2 years now for as long as 8 hours straight. So far so good. It is one of those ultra thin TVs, so it is easy to hang back on the TV stand when I'm not using it for gaming. It hangs like a picture frame on those metal disks that you can mount on a wall, only I mounted the disks on a tv stand instead of the wall.


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## Oryan77

Radiating Gnome said:


> For mine, I'm taking some risks because I was worried about distortion created by the plexiglass holding the minis up above the TV.




My plexiglass sits maybe 1/4 " above the TV screen. There is not enough distortion that has caused me issues. I don't notice any really. Although I still use Maptool tokens and we move both the token & the miniature. So maybe the token under the mini helps take away from any distortion.

We use the tokens because it is awesome using line of site & light sources. The token also helps keep track of conditions, commonly referenced character stats, and I use health bars. We still use the minis for the 3d aspect and because minis are just so dang cool.


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## Radiating Gnome

Oryan77 said:


> We use the tokens because it is awesome using line of site & light sources. The token also helps keep track of conditions, commonly referenced character stats, and I use health bars. We still use the minis for the 3d aspect and because minis are just so dang cool.




WOW.  Minis AND tokens?  That sounds like a whole lot of extra work.  I'd love to be using Tokens, actually -- because then it's a lot easier to deal with sections of the map -- have different groups operating in different areas, etc.  But the players wanted minis, and I didn't want to do both.  That also means I can switch applications when I want to -- about a third of the time I'm using my iPad and Battle Map rather than Maptools. 

Maybe it really means I'm just old skool -- I get the map set up and then we play on it analog style.  I'm just pretending to be a tech geek.   

-rg


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## Oryan77

It's really not all that much extra work to use tokens & minis. You are moving a character twice. But if the players help, there is no extra time or work involved at all.

I have two laptops (mine for DMing and 1 for the players) that are connected via the LAN server to my Maptool campaign. I have the player laptop projecting the player map on the tv. The players can use this laptop to move tokens themselves, or I can move the tokens from my DM laptop (my laptop shows all the map stuff they aren't supposed to see). I usually move NPC tokens via Maptool and then a player will see where I put the token and he will move the mini on top of it. 

Using tokens also helps for when you want to zoom in or out of a map, or move a map around on the screen. You can then easily zoom back to normal and position the map until the tokens are underneath where the minis are. Or, if you need to reposition the map, the tokens are place holders so you can move the minis back on top of them.


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## falcarrion

I also use pvc pipeing. but I laid the plexiglass on the tv bezel. I also have a leap motion device coming. If it works the way I want it to the setup will basicly be multitouch. then when i use miniatures it will move the tolkiens on the screen.


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## JDragon

Thanks for the information everyone its very helpful.  I'm still trying to figure out what is going to be the best solution for my set up so different ideas are great.

I'll be getting started on a table soon, but that's even more decisions and trying to figure out what will work best.

Also, has anyone had any issues with the TV's over heating?


----------

