# Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin



## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Part Two. 

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

I believe we are fresh out of apes.   Shall we move on to the variant octopi requested earlier?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

I never have a problem with octopodes.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I never have a problem with octopodes.



The more tentacles, the better?  Any other cephalopods once we're done with octopodia?


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

It's probably not an animal, but since I gathered up the stats...

*Octopus, deep-dwelling*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Deep ocean/
Hydrothermal vents
FREQUENCY:  Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Colony
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: See text
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (good)
NO. APPEARING: 10-40
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 3/Sw 12
HIT DICE: 1-1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 7 or 4
DAMAGE/ATTACK:  1-2(x6)/1-3 or 1-6(x3)/1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See text
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE:  Average (8)
XP VALUE: 75

The deep-dwelling octopus is a distant cousin of the common octopus, averaging 8’ in diameter and weighing about 65 lbs. Its skin has a bioluminescent pigment that it manipulates with great facility. Thus, in the absolute darkness of the ocean’sdepths, it appears as a floating; shifting arrangement of greenish lights. Under sunlike illumination, it can be seen that the deep-dweller has a whiter skin and larger body sac than its shallow-dwelling relative. Its illuminating pigment aside, a deep-dwelling octopus possesses no ability to camouflage itself. It lives for an average of 30-35 years.

Combat: Peaceful by nature, the deepdwelling octopus has little combat experience, aside from battling the  occasional predatory fish. Nevertheless, when threatened, it can be a cunning and tenacious fighter. When entering combat, a deepdweller normally anchors itself with two of its tentacles and attacks with the other six. Each tentacle can inflict 1d2 hp damage with a blow. All six may be directed against a single opponent, or the attacks may be distributed among up to three adversaries. A deep-dweller may also bite with its powerful beak for 1d3 hp damage.

The tentacles of a deep-dweller are tough and can hold with surprising strength. Opponents less than 4’ tall struck by a tentacle must save vs. paralyzation or be grasped. Grasped creatures automatically suffer 1d2 hp constriction damage per attached tentacle on each subsequent round. Moreover, if a creature has been grasped by two or more tentacles, the deep-dweller receives a +2 bonus on all succeeding attack rolls made with its beak. A victim may attempt to free itself by rolling his Strength or less on 2d8; success indicates that a tentacle has been removed (a separate check being made for each tentacle). Regardless of whether or not attempt is successful, a creature trying to remove a tentacle may perform no other actions.

Grasped creatures may also be freed by severing the tentacles that hold them. Each tentacle takes 2 hp damage to sever, and this amount is not subtracted from the creature.s total hit points. Grasped creatures may attack but do so at a -2 penalty; they may not cast spells. Severed tentacles regrow in 1d6 months.

In general, deep-dwellers have little contact with hostile groups, having driven out rival predators long ago. Most reside in a state of semi-innocence and possess no weapons. The few colonies that have been recently attacked always have special defenses. Against larger opponents, for example, they have been known to employ small spears of bone. These weapons do 1d6 hp damage, require two tentacles each to employ, and cannot be thrown. Deep-dwellers may also attempt to surprise foes. A common ploy is for the octopi to approach their victims from above, having .turned off. their luminescence. In such cases characters take a -2 penalty to their surprise rolls.

Although not cowardly by nature, deepdwellers do not hesitate to break off combat if it begins to go against them. (An exception to this is a female protecting her young.) Typically, they emit a burst of glowing ink (sepia), turn off their own luminescence, and flee the area. At short range, the cloud obscures vision; at long range, it may be mistaken for an actual deep-dwelling octopus. Furthermore, the cloud of ink is naturally cohesive. Characters or objects caught in the cloud (all within a 10’ sphere must save vs. breath weapon at -2 to avoid) continue to glow for 4d4 hours; the effect is similar to a faerie fire spell.

Habitat/Society: Deep-dwelling octopi are found on the ocean floor at depths greater than 9,000’ and in the vicinity of hydrothermal vents. As vents are transient by nature, octopoid communities are frequently on the move.

Deep-dwellers communicate with each other by a combination of clicking noises produced by their beaks and by altering the pattern of lights on their bodies. This makes communication with other races somewhat difficult. A tongues spell grants comprehension to a character, but it does not allow him to speak unless he can also assume the form of an octopoid and reproduce its bioluminescence.

Deep-dwellers have neither been exposed to magic nor have developed the concept of religion. Thus, they have no mages or priests. The octopi are, however, naturally curious. Should they be intro duced to either phenomenon, it  could affect their culture radically.

Ecology: Deep-dwelling octopi have established an agrarian society. Near the hottest land most nutrient-rich) part of a vent, they raise giant tube worms and clams. The clams and worms provide food and, when the shells are cleaned out, shelter. Farther from a vent, the octopoids tend fields of shrimp and mussels. Some octopoid communities are known to raise crabs and lobsters as well.

Deep-dwellers do not have a concept of money as such, but individuals may possess treasure. Pearls are often strung to form necklaces or bracelets, then sprayed with ink so as to glow. Octopoids are fine sculptors whose work would certainly be considered unique if brought to the surface. Additionally, the area surrounding the hydrothermal vent is typically rich in precious metals, though these would require excavation. Finally, many wizards would pay dearly for a bottle of deep-dwelling octopus ink, as it can be used to prepare magical glyphs and scrolls.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #190 (1993).


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Got t ogo with magical beast there.  1HD seems a little low, though, especially since it's substantially bigger than the 2HD regular octopus.  Maybe 2 or 3 HD but poor Con (to go with the -1 on the HD)?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

I'm okay with Magical Beast with 3 HD and a Con penalty.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Octopus is Str 12, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3.  Maybe Str 16, Dex 15, Con 9, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 11?  I could even see dropping the Str a little since their damage is pretty low.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2009)

No, those suggested stats work pretty well for me.


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## Cleon (Aug 19, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> No, those suggested stats work pretty well for me.




I'd drop the Strength myself. A Giant Octopus is Large, if you reversed the advancement rules it works out as Str 12, Dex 17, Con 9 if scaled down from Medium sized. I imagine it as being a less powerfully built than a Giant Octopus, since they rarely fight anything tougher than the crab they select for their dinner and have lousy Hit Dice, indicating they're a fairly inoffensive species. I can easily see them only having Str 10.

So I prefer Str 10 (maybe 12), Dex 17 (maybe 15), Con 9, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 10.

I can see how you might fancy Str 16, since it's halfway between the Small regular octopus's Str 12 and the Large giant octopus's Str 20. However, the deepdweller only weight 65 pounds, which is very close to the typical upper weight limit of a Small creature, so I feel it could reasonably have similar physical stats to the Small regular octopus.

In either case, if it has the same natural armour as a regular octopus it would end out having a better AC than the original deepwater octopus. Should we give it no NA and Dex 17, or +1 NA and Dex 15, so it gets AC13, the equivalent of AD&D AC7?


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

Would Str 13, Dex 15, Con 9, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10 work as a compromise? 

AC 13 sounds fair to me, and I guess I'm partial to Dex 15 for some reason.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2009)

We don't have to match the original's AC, you know.


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## Cleon (Aug 19, 2009)

freyar said:


> Would Str 13, Dex 15, Con 9, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10 work as a compromise?
> 
> AC 13 sounds fair to me, and I guess I'm partial to Dex 15 for some reason.




The physical stats work for me, although I'd be tempted to bump the mental stats up a point. Mainly because the SRD Octopodes have Wisdom 12, which means the Int would have to become an odd-numbered stat.

Str 13, Dex 15, Con 9, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 10?



demiurge1138 said:


> We don't have to match the original's AC, you know.




Oh I realize that, but most Armour Class inflation happens with high-AC critters like fiends. With squishy things like the octopus I feel the AC should stay pretty low.

I think I prefer NA +2 with Dex +2 for AC14, like a regular SRD octopus Advanced to Medium sized.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Mainly because the SRD Octopodes have Wisdom 12, which means the Int would have to become an odd-numbered stat.




I'm just curious, as this comes up from time to time...where is this even/odd "rule"?   I know that most creatures seem to follow this format, but many official monsters do not.

It really makes little difference in the grand scheme of things, but I find it rather odd.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'm just curious, as this comes up from time to time...where is this even/odd "rule"?   I know that most creatures seem to follow this format, but many official monsters do not.
> 
> It really makes little difference in the grand scheme of things, but I find it rather odd.



I think the confusion stems from the "abilities" paragraph of the "how to read a statblock" section of the MM/SRD:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Except where noted otherwise, each creature is assumed to have the standard array of ability scores before racial adjustments (all 11s and 10s). To determine any creature’s racial ability adjustments, subtract 10 from any even-numbered ability score and subtract 11 from any odd-numbered score.




Then there's the bit from "ability scores arrays" under "improving monsters":


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses.




These don't say that you have 3 even, 3 odd scores, so it's not a rule.  But you could read into it an implication that there actually is a "standard array" with a set number of 10s and 11s.  Since monsters are usually 3 odd, 3 even, it looks like 3 of each.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

Ahh...in that case, I'd say it's safe to deviate from the 3 odd/3 even when it suits our needs.


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## Cleon (Aug 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Ahh...in that case, I'd say it's safe to deviate from the 3 odd/3 even when it suits our needs.




But, but then it wouldn't be completely average. 

Yes, it isn't an actual rule as such, since I don't think it's written down anywhere. It's just most of published 3E monsters' ability scores are half odd, half even. I guess the "non-elite stat array" (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) is a factor.

To be honest, I fancied giving them Int 9 because (a) it's the average of the 8-10 range of an average-intelligence, and (b) it's a point higher than Int 8 (although it actually makes little difference as far as the rules are concerned). The odd/even rule of thumb was more of an excuse.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm fine with Int 9.  The odd/even "rule" just bugs me.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

So are we going with Str 13, Dex 15, Con 9, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 10?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Sure.   Added to Homebrews.

I split the difference between the Small octopus' and giant octopus' ink cloud dimensions.

Stick with 2 hp to sever a tentacle, like the original text?

Suggested constrict damage?   The giant octopi has an odd amount, based on its other attacks.  Downsizing that yields 1d10+Str.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

Let's just go with a 10 ft cube ink cloud, like the regular octopus and original text.

I'd say 2hp per tentacle, does no damage to the actual deepdweller.  

1d10 is ok, and so is 1d8.  The original was 1d2 per tentacle attached, so it could go either way.


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## Cleon (Aug 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> Stick with 2 hp to sever a tentacle, like the original text?




I think I'd increase it to 4 or 5 hit points, since a giant squid and gant octopus both have 10 hp tentacles.



Shade said:


> Suggested constrict damage?   The giant octopi has an odd amount, based on its other attacks.  Downsizing that yields 1d10+Str.




Well its tentacles are 2 damage steps lower than a giant octopus's (1d4 vs 1d2), which suggests its Constrict should be 2 steps down as well.

Hmmm, I think I'd just have its Constrict do tentacle damage, like a giant squid.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2009)

I like the weak tentacle attacks and constrict.


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## Shade (Aug 21, 2009)

So 2 hp/tentacle, but no damage to the octopus, and constrict damage equals 1d2+1?


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> So 2 hp/tentacle, but no damage to the octopus,



Either this, or I guess we could do 4 hp/tentacle with 2 to the octopus, as Cleon suggests.



> and constrict damage equals 1d2+1?




I kind of like 1d6 (two steps down from giant octopus, like the tentacle).  The original text suggests it should often get more than 1d2.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 22, 2009)

Giving it some thought, I'm alright with the 1d6 constriction.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2009)

I'd be fine with that so long as it isn't per tentacle like the AD&D version of cephalopods of unusual size. That would add up to a lot of damage once the octopus gets a few arms around its victim!



demiurge1138 said:


> Giving it some thought, I'm alright with the 1d6 constriction.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

My thought is that 1d6 would just be the constrict value, as a reasonable average over numbers of tentacles from the earlier version.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> My thought is that 1d6 would just be the constrict value, as a reasonable average over numbers of tentacles from the earlier version.




Well if we add the Strength bonus that's 1d6+1, which is less than the average damage of two tentacle hits at 1d2+1 (4.5 versus 5). If the Deepwater Octopus hits with all eight tentacles it would do an average of 20 damage.

If we want to keep it close to the original tentacle constrict, we'd need to either bump up the damage or have it Constrict per tentacle.

Perhaps we're going about this the wrong way. The SRD Octopus does not have multiple tentacle attacks like their giant versions, just a single attack with its arms. The SRD Squid does the same, and that's Medium sized like the Deepwater Octopus. We could just give it a single "Arms" attack with its tentacles in the same fashion.

Alternatively, we could give it three primary attacks with tentacle (1d2+1) or weapon (shortspear for 1d6+1?), and give it Constrict damage of around the average damage (7.5) of three tentacle strikes - say 1d10+2 (1d10 plus double Strength bonus)? That also more-or-less matches up if the Deepwater Octopus is advanced to Large size, with three tentacles for 1d3+5 (average 21 damage) versus 2d8+10 Constrict (average 19 damage).

EDIT: I have a feeling the debate over this is going to be as long as that over Houyhnhnm Hoof damage.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

The original only had 6 tentacles (should we change that in our writeup?) presumably to keep the other two free for manipulating things and didn't get a Str bonus.  Taking 1d6 tentacles at 1d2 each gives an average constrict damage of 3.5*1.5=5.25.  1d6+1 gives an average of 4.5, which isn't that far off.  And that's assuming that you get lots of tentacles attached as much as just 1 or 2.  I just don't think we should compare constrict by adding in Str for each tentacle, since that's not how constrict generally works in 3.X.  We've done some exceptional constricts in the past, I think, but those were for more exceptional monsters, too.

I do think we should add the shortspear to the attack line as a possibility.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Perhaps we're going about this the wrong way. The SRD Octopus does not have multiple tentacle attacks like their giant versions, just a single attack with its arms. The SRD Squid does the same, and that's Medium sized like the Deepwater Octopus. We could just give it a single "Arms" attack with its tentacles in the same fashion.




That only works since their arms deal no actual damage.  It's a bit like the "attach" damage for some creatures that attack only to latch on, but deal no damage.



Cleon said:


> EDIT: I have a feeling the debate over this is going to be as long as that over Houyhnhnm Hoof damage.




Weeps profusely.  



freyar said:


> The original only had 6 tentacles (should we change that in our writeup?) presumably to keep the other two free for manipulating things and didn't get a Str bonus.  Taking 1d6 tentacles at 1d2 each gives an average constrict damage of 3.5*1.5=5.25.  1d6+1 gives an average of 4.5, which isn't that far off.  And that's assuming that you get lots of tentacles attached as much as just 1 or 2.  I just don't think we should compare constrict by adding in Str for each tentacle, since that's not how constrict generally works in 3.X.  We've done some exceptional constricts in the past, I think, but those were for more exceptional monsters, too.




I like 1d6+1 for a creature of its power level.



Cleon said:


> I do think we should add the shortspear to the attack line as a possibility.




Agreed.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> The original only had 6 tentacles (should we change that in our writeup?) presumably to keep the other two free for manipulating things and didn't get a Str bonus.  Taking 1d6 tentacles at 1d2 each gives an average constrict damage of 3.5*1.5=5.25.  1d6+1 gives an average of 4.5, which isn't that far off.  And that's assuming that you get lots of tentacles attached as much as just 1 or 2.  I just don't think we should compare constrict by adding in Str for each tentacle, since that's not how constrict generally works in 3.X.  We've done some exceptional constricts in the past, I think, but those were for more exceptional monsters, too.
> 
> I do think we should add the shortspear to the attack line as a possibility.




That's right, the original write-up says it uses two limbs to stabilize itself while attacking with the remaining six. The AD&D versions of the giant octopus was the same, only being able to attack with 6 limbs, while the AD&D giant squid could use 8. Oh and they both automatically did double tentacle damage per tentacle per round when constricting.

Anyhow, I'm just trying to get a feel for what damage level would be appropriate for when the Deepwater Octopus constricts a victim. 1d6+1 just seems too low if it can opt to attack with eight tentacles for 1d2+1 apiece.

The SRD giant octopus can constrict for 2d8+6 (which I'm sure is a typo, since its Strength is 20 it should either be 2d8+7 or 2d8+5).

I'd prefer the Constrict damage to be significant enough for it to be the Deepwater's favourite tactic, rather than it often being better off Full-Attacking with its tentacles.

Hmm, how about this:


Drop the Deepwater Octopus's Strength to 11.
Give it 6 tentacle attacks (or 3 weapons) like the original write up.
Make its constrict do 1d10 damage (since the SRD Giant Octopus does 2d8 and is one size category larger).
That way, the deepwater could attack with 6 arms for 1d2 (average 9) or Constrict for 1d10 (5.5), roughly four times a single tentacle damage. Throw in a racial grapple bonus and that would make Constriction an effective tactic for it.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

Uggh.  I thought we wanted to go 2 steps down from the giant octopus?  I guess I could go up to 1d8 or maybe 1d10.  Dropping Str to 11 is ok, but did we have a reason for 13?

Another question, though: if the AD&D giant octopus and squid did better constrict damage relative to tentacles than the deepwater did, doesn't that argue for a weak constrict attack?


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> Weeps profusely.




Sorry Shade, I didn't mean to give you flashbacks.



Shade said:


> I like 1d6+1 for a creature of its power level




It's just that I don't think 1d6+1 Constrict is anywhere near comparable to a potential 8d2+8 (plus 1d6 bite!) with a Full Attack. So, I'd prefer to either increase the Constrict damage or cut down the tentacle damage (maybe 3 tentacles attacks for 1d2, or 6-8 doing 1 point each?).

What sort of power level are you thinking of, anyway, Challenge Rating 2ish?

Oh, and we definitely need Shortspear attacks.

Come to think of it, that may open up yet another can of worms. Would we need a primary shortspear attack and a couple of secondary shortspear attacks?

I'm making things difficult for ourselves, again, aren't I.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

The shortspears would be handled by Multiweapon fighting rules (same as 2-weapon fighting) as usual, right?  I guess that's more or less like secondary attacks.

The thing is, I don't know that these are likely to hit with all 6 or 8 tentacle attacks.  So the constrict is trading off iffy damage for pretty much guaranteed damage, right?


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> Uggh.  I thought we wanted to go 2 steps down from the giant octopus?  I guess I could go up to 1d8 or maybe 1d10.  Dropping Str to 11 is ok, but did we have a reason for 13?




Well the SRD Octopus is Str 12 and the SRD Squid Str 14, so it just seemed reasonable at the time.



freyar said:


> Another question, though: if the AD&D giant octopus and squid did better constrict damage relative to tentacles than the deepwater did, doesn't that argue for a weak constrict attack?




Well it's horses for courses.

An AD&D giant octopus could only hit a single man-sized foe with one tentacle (strike for 1d4 or Constrict for 2d4 damage per round), so would usually divide its tentacles amongst all the enemies it could reach and could do more total damage against a party. The AD&D Deepwater can use all six of its tentacle attacks against the same opponent, for a potential 6d2 Constriction damage, so it actually can do more damage mano-a-cephalopod against a single foe, although at least its grip was easier to escape from (anyone with Strength 16+ could automatically pry its tentacles free, while a Giant Octopus's grip was unbreakable unless its tentacles were severed).

Alternatively, how about modelling it after the behir's Rake attack - it gets a few regular tentacle attacks with Improved Grab when making a Full Attack, and if it enters a grapple it can Constrict plus make a bunch of low-damage tentacles attacks with its primary attack bonus and secondary damage bonus. e.g. its Constrict does 1d6+1 damage with a grapple check plus six +3 melee attacks doing 1d2 damage, its Full Attack is 3 tentacles +3 melee (1d2+1) plus bite -2 melee (1d6).

So, enough of my throwing ideas out to see what sticks. How much damage would you lot like it to do with its tentacles?


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm going to mull over the suggestions a bit, but I'll answer your last question.  Not a whole lot, since their flavor suggests that they're not really strong in melee.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Sorry Shade, I didn't mean to give you flashbacks.




<Wipes away tears, composes self>



Cleon said:


> It's just that I don't think 1d6+1 Constrict is anywhere near comparable to a potential 8d2+8 (plus 1d6 bite!) with a Full Attack. So, I'd prefer to either increase the Constrict damage or cut down the tentacle damage (maybe 3 tentacles attacks for 1d2, or 6-8 doing 1 point each?).




Hmmm...nothing prevents it from constricting with one tentacle while attacking with the rest, does it (other than the -20 penalty)?   That's pretty damn potent!



Cleon said:


> What sort of power level are you thinking of, anyway, Challenge Rating 2ish?




Yeah, that sounds about right.



Cleon said:


> Oh, and we definitely need Shortspear attacks.
> 
> Come to think of it, that may open up yet another can of worms. Would we need a primary shortspear attack and a couple of secondary shortspear attacks?






freyar said:


> The shortspears would be handled by Multiweapon fighting rules (same as 2-weapon fighting) as usual, right?  I guess that's more or less like secondary attacks.




Right.  Which would make them highly unlikely to hit with the Multiweapon Fighting feat, let alone without it. 



freyar said:


> The thing is, I don't know that these are likely to hit with all 6 or 8 tentacle attacks.  So the constrict is trading off iffy damage for pretty much guaranteed damage, right?




Yep.  

The more I think about this, I think the constrict should simply deal automatic tentacle damage, with perhaps bonus damage based on the number of arms comitted to the grapple.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

You know, let's just stick to 1 shortspear.  The damage boost might almost be enough to make it worthwhile.

I'm not so sure I like the constrict/tentacle thing.  Haven't we mostly used that for big, special monsters before?


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## Cleon (Aug 26, 2009)

Shade said:


> Right.  Which would make them highly unlikely to hit with the Multiweapon Fighting feat, let alone without it.




Well we could give them special multiweapon attacks like a Marilith which does not suffer an attack penalty with its secondary arms, and iterative attacks with its primary weapon arm. That would give it "primary shortspear +3 melee (1d6+1) and 2 secondary shortspears +3 melee (1d6)", with an 11.5 average damage if all three hit.

Of course that's a pretty meaty ability. We'd have PCs lining up to play a Deepwater Octopus rogue- and warrior-types in an aquatic campaign, to exploit its two extra weapon attacks.

I's still less average damage than its tentacle-strikes though. I'd either reduce its damage (give them secondary damage bonus), or maybe say it cannot strike at a creature its own size or less with more than 4 limbs?



Shade said:


> The more I think about this, I think the constrict should simply deal automatic tentacle damage, with perhaps bonus damage based on the number of arms comitted to the grapple.




Yes, that works. 1d6 plus 1 per tentacle? That's a slightly lower level of damage to its shortspears, and is about on par with its tentacles if we cut their damage to six-eight 1d2s or four 1d2+1s.

Should we give it a grapple bonus equal to the number of tentacles it's holding on with, or just a set racial bonus?


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

I _really_ don't want to use the marilith's multiweapon fighting.  These are supposed to be pretty peaceful critters who only keep weapons around if they've had a lot of trouble recently.  I say give them regular Multiweapon Fighting as a feat or just one shortspear.

I'm not fond of the per tentacle approach, though Cleon's hybrid base constrict plus per tentacle bonus is a little better.  The giant octopi don't use this mechanic, and I prefer to keep it for "special" monsters.  If we're that concerned with making constrict powerful enough, let's just boost the damage to 1d8 or 1d10 plus Str or even 1-1/2 Str.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

Yeah, my concerns are that these will venture into the "awakened octopus monk" abuse arena.

Maybe we should refocus...these guys are supposed to be peaceful, as noted earlier.  Maybe we should drop the tentacles as natural attacks (which would still leave room for the less desirable use of them for unarmed strikes), and fall back on the "arms" attack that then allows for constrict like the standard octopus.   That would make them a bit more palatable as level-adjusted player characters.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

That sounds like a great idea!  Using "arms" or unarmed strikes for the tentacles makes the constrict and shortspear options more appealing, also.


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## Cleon (Aug 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> That sounds like a great idea!  Using "arms" or unarmed strikes for the tentacles makes the constrict and shortspear options more appealing, also.




As you like, I'm flexible.

So, it would have something like Full Attack: Arms +3 melee (1d2+1) and bite -2 melee (1d6+1) or shortsword +3 melee (1d6+1), with Improved Grab and Constrict 1d6+1 as Special Attacks?

That seems consistent. I'd probably give it a +4 racial bonus to grapple, 'cause of all those suckers.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

I believe arms would do no damage as attacks, just allow Imp Grab (like the regular octopus).  They could, however, be used as unarmed strikes.

I will agree to a +4 bonus to grapple.


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Updated.

Is that what you had in mind?


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

That seems pretty good to me.  It puts them better than par with an octopus.


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

Cleon, does that work for you?


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Cleon, does that work for you?




Sorry, I didn't think you were waiting for me.

A single arms attack is fine by me, it being one of the options I suggested earlier, although I'd prefer if it did some damage.

The more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to stat up a "Monster Deepwater Octopus" that's closer to the original with its loads of attacks, to go with the "PC/NPC Deepwater Octopus" that we seem to be working towards.

Aw, who am I kidding, I've already statted the thing up. I'm just waiting for us to finish the character-class version before posting it.

EDIT: Looking at the Updated write-up, there is one thing that puzzles me. Why is it given a shortsword attack? Surely the original description indicates shortspears.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Cleon said:


> The more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to stat up a "Monster Deepwater Octopus" that's closer to the original with its loads of attacks, to go with the "PC/NPC Deepwater Octopus" that we seem to be working towards.




I really wish they had just left these things mindless, rather than trying to create a deep-sea octohumanoid race.



Cleon said:


> Aw, who am I kidding, I've already statted the thing up. I'm just waiting for us to finish the character-class version before posting it.




You're not fooling anyone, you know.  



Cleon said:


> EDIT: Looking at the Updated write-up, there is one thing that puzzles me. Why is it given a shortsword attack? Surely the original description indicates shortspears.




Good question.  That shall be repaired.


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2009)

I always thought the issue with the tentacles was that these "peaceful" creatures who always had to run away were starting to get quite good damage for their HD.  

Speaking of running away, shouldn't we make the ink cloud luminescent?  And the octopus?


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2009)

freyar said:


> I always thought the issue with the tentacles was that these "peaceful" creatures who always had to run away were starting to get quite good damage for their HD.




That too.  



freyar said:


> Speaking of running away, shouldn't we make the ink cloud luminescent?  And the octopus?




Good call.



> Its skin has a bioluminescent pigment that it manipulates with great facility. Thus, in the absolute darkness of the ocean’sdepths, it appears as a floating; shifting arrangement of greenish lights. Under sunlike illumination, it can be seen that the deep-dweller has a whiter skin and larger body sac than its shallow-dwelling relative. Its illuminating pigment aside, a deep-dwelling octopus possesses no ability to camouflage itself.






> A common ploy is for the octopi to approach their victims from above, having "turned off" their luminescence. In such cases characters take a -2 penalty to their surprise rolls.




Should this provide some benefit other than shedding light equivalent to a candle/torch and the ability to "turn it off"?



> Typically, they emit a burst of glowing ink (sepia), turn off their own luminescence, and flee the area. At short range, the cloud obscures vision; at long range, it may be mistaken for an actual deep-dwelling octopus. Furthermore, the cloud of ink is naturally cohesive. Characters or objects caught in the cloud (all within a 10’ sphere must save vs. breath weapon at -2 to avoid) continue to glow for 4d4 hours; the effect is similar to a faerie fire spell.




Adapt the standard octopi ink to include the faerie fire effect?


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2009)

Maybe turning off the light grants a Hide bonus in low-light conditions?

Yes, I like the faerie fire.  And maybe a camouflage effect (ink cloud can mimic the glowing octopus).


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

freyar said:


> Maybe turning off the light grants a Hide bonus in low-light conditions?




I interpreted that as just a combination of concealing darkness and a good skill modifier in Hide and Move Silently.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

Yeah, I supposed "turning off the lights" in the ocean depths would grant them the usual benefits of darkness.   Speaking of which, I see I neglected to give them darkvision.   Fixed.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

I think there should be a couple of abilities here.  Did we intentionally resize the ink cloud up?  I put it back at the 10 ft cube below, but we can change it.

Naturally Luminescent (Ex): A deep-dwelling octopus naturally sheds light as a torch.  The octopus can extinguish or reinstate this light as a swift action.  If the octopus is in an area of low illumination or darkness, it gains the usual benefits of the low light level when it is not luminescent.

Ink Cloud (Ex): A deep-dwelling octopus can emit a cloud of luminescent ink 10 feet high by 10 feet wide by 10 feet long once per minute as a free action. All vision within the cloud is obscured due to the clinging light, providing total concealment.  At a distance of 20 ft or more, it takes a DC X Spot check to distinguish the ink cloud from a luminescent deep-dwelling octopus.

Need to clean that up, maybe?


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

I'd change "Naturally Luminescent" to "Bioluminescent", but other than that it looks good.

We also need to add the faerie fire side effect of the ink.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

Ooops, I meant to put faerie fire in!  Go ahead and change the luminescence name, too.

Ink Cloud (Ex): A deep-dwelling octopus can emit a cloud of luminescent ink 10 feet high by 10 feet wide by 10 feet long once per minute as a free action. All vision within the cloud is obscured due to the clinging light, providing total concealment. At a distance of 20 ft or more, it takes a DC X Spot check to distinguish the ink cloud from a luminescent deep-dwelling octopus.  In addition, any creature that enters the ink cloud must succeed at a DC X Reflex save? or be affected as if by the faerie fire spell for 1 minute?  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Sep 4, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I supposed "turning off the lights" in the ocean depths would grant them the usual benefits of darkness. Speaking of which, I see I neglected to give them darkvision. Fixed.




While it is a standard ability of Magical Beasts, giving them darkvision does rather undermine their bio-lights, since they can see perfectly well without their glow on. I decided to cut it out in my take on the creature.



Shade said:


> I'd change "Naturally Luminescent" to "Bioluminescent", but other than that it looks good.
> 
> We also need to add the faerie fire side effect of the ink.




Great minds think alike! I called it bioluminescence in my "monster" version.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Cleon said:


> While it is a standard ability of Magical Beasts, giving them darkvision does rather undermine their bio-lights, since they can see perfectly well without their glow on. I decided to cut it out in my take on the creature.




But it gives them the tactical advantage of "shutting off their lights" described in the text.  What do you think, freyar?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

It's kind of a toss-up for me, but I think the light is something of a distraction for other animals, more than a way for them to see.  Let's keep the darkvision.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Updated.

Is the name too confusing, implying they are animals?  Perhaps call them "Depth Dwellers" instead?

Suggested DC for the Spot check in the ink cloud ability?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

We could go either way with the name.  What do you think, Cleon?

DC 20 to let them get away?

For the tentacle severing: 2 hp per arm, no damage to the creature?


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## Cleon (Sep 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> It's kind of a toss-up for me, but I think the light is something of a distraction for other animals, more than a way for them to see.  Let's keep the darkvision.






Shade said:


> Is the name too confusing, implying they are animals?  Perhaps call them "Depth Dwellers" instead?
> 
> Suggested DC for the Spot check in the ink cloud ability?
> 
> ...




How about keeping the darkvision and calling them "Deep Dwellers", then I can call my monster version a "Deepwater Giant Octopus" to distinguish between them.

As for the ink cloud, I would be tempted to make the _faerie fire_ save Charisma-based, mainly so it doesn't jump if with Large Deep-Dwellers. We could hand-wave a justification that their bioluminescence is mainly social. Spot Check DC of 20 seems about right.

As for the tentacles, they don't have individual tentacle attacks any more so there seems little point in giving them severance hit points. It would save us all that "how to Sunder a tentacle" text, which regular SRD squids and octupus don't have.


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## freyar (Sep 6, 2009)

Mmmph, I see what you're saying about the ink, but I really don't like Cha-based for an Ex ability.  Just feels wrong somehow.

Yeah, I'm ok with dropping the sunder text.  We don't have a bonus for attached arms or anything.


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## Cleon (Sep 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> Mmmph, I see what you're saying about the ink, but I really don't like Cha-based for an Ex ability.  Just feels wrong somehow




That's fine. Just use Con for the Deep-Dweller's ink and I'll use Cha for my version.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 6
Feats: 2


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2009)

Max Spot, I think.

Stealthy, either Alertness or Skill Focus (Spot)?


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2009)

freyar said:


> Max Spot, I think.
> 
> Stealthy, either Alertness or Skill Focus (Spot)?




Well there's no mention in the original of them having particularly keen eyesight or being difficult to surprise. Indeed, going by the Dragon Magazine version they're more likely to have skill points in Profession (farmer) and Craft (jewellery).

Although I will confess my Monster Version has a fairly good Spot modifier.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

At the very least, I like the idea of ranks in Craft (jewlery/gemcutting).  I'm not as keen on Profession (farmer), as they can take classes and allow the deep-dwelling commoners to handle that.     Knowledge (nature), though, might be a good fit for a generic member of the species.



> Deep-dwelling octopi have established an agrarian society. Near the hottest land most nutrient-rich) part of a vent, they raise giant tube worms and clams. The clams and worms provide food and, when the shells are cleaned out, shelter. Farther from a vent, the octopoids tend fields of shrimp and mussels. Some octopoid communities are known to raise crabs and lobsters as well.




Knowledge (nature) applies to animals and vermin.   Maybe Handle Animal (although many 3x crustaceans are given the vermin type)?



> Deep-dwellers do not have a concept of money as such, but individuals may possess treasure. Pearls are often strung to form necklaces or bracelets, then sprayed with ink so as to glow. Octopoids are fine sculptors whose work would certainly be considered unique if brought to the surface.




Racial bonus on Craft (sculpting)?



> A common ploy is for the octopi to approach their victims from above, having "turned off" their luminescence. In such cases characters take a -2 penalty to their surprise rolls.




I could see an argument for Move Silently and/or Stealthy.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2009)

Hmmph, I was optimizing too much.  Let's go with Knowledge (nature) for the ranks and a racial bonus of +4 on craft (sculpting).

I do think Stealthy has some back-up in the orginal text, as Shade quoted.  That leaves one more feat.  Any suggestion?


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## Cleon (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm against giving them a racial bonus to Craft (jewelery). It doesn't feel like its part of their nature, like a gnome or dwarf, more that it's a cultural thing, maybe just a way to pass the time.

I'm okay for leaving most of the Craft skills to those Deep-Dwellers that pick up levels in an NPC class, such as Expert.

I like the suggestion of Knowledge (nature), it makes more sense than Profession (farmer) or Handle Animal. Let's give it a point or two in that.

Stealthy is a good pick for one feat, Maybe Alertness or Skill Focus (Knowledge (nature)) for the other one?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

I see what you're saying about the Craft.  Ok, let's leave off the racial bonus.

I think I like Alertness for the 2nd feat.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or colony (10–40)?

Challenge Rating: 2?



> Deep-dwellers do not have a concept of money as such, but individuals may possess treasure. Pearls are often strung to form necklaces or bracelets, then sprayed with ink so as to glow. Octopoids are fine sculptors whose work would certainly be considered unique if brought to the surface. Additionally, the area surrounding the hydrothermal vent is typically rich in precious metals, though these would require excavation. Finally, many wizards would pay dearly for a bottle of deep-dwelling octopus ink, as it can be used to prepare magical glyphs and scrolls.




Treasure: No coins, double goods, standard items?

Alignment: Usually neutral, often good?

Advancement: By character class?



> Deep-dwellers communicate with each other by a combination of clicking noises produced by their beaks and by altering the pattern of lights on their bodies. This makes communication with other races somewhat difficult. A tongues spell grants comprehension to a character, but it does not allow him to speak unless he can also assume the form of an octopoid and reproduce its bioluminescence.




How's this?

Deep dwellers speak their own language, a combination of clicking sounds and altering patterns of their bioluminescence.  A non-deep dweller can learn to understand their language, but cannot "speak" it without the ability to produce bioluminescence.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

That all sounds good to me!


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

Looks good.  So, are we done here?


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

I think so.


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Looks very good, but I'll raise a few minor niggles.

First, it's still got shortsword listed as a weapon, despite it mentioning spears in the Combat section. One or the other needs changing.

Secondly, I'd tweak the language explanation a bit since presumably you don't need a living glow to speak deep-octopus, since you could create the same lights by other means. Something like:Deep dwellers speak their own language, a combination of clicking sounds and altering patterns of their bioluminescence. A non-deep dweller can learn to understand their language, but cannot "speak" without duplicating the bioluminescent patterns by some means, such as the _silent image_ spell.​


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

D'oh!  I meant to fix that shortsword/shortspear error earlier. 

Good suggestions on the languages.

Updated.

Here's the next one, which thankfully is an animal.  

*Octo-jelly*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ocean depths
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: Sw 9
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6+1d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Smother
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Luminous cloud
Magic Resistance: Nil
SIZE: L (9’ long, 5’ across)
MORALE: Fearless (19)(see below)
XP VALUE: 2,000

This deep-water predator is a bell-shaped octopus with a pair of swimming fins protruding from its body.  Its tentacles appear to be very short, as they are connected by webbing for nearly their entire length, creating a fleshy bag in which to trap prey.  Further, the creature is effectively blind, using touch and sensing vibration to pinpoint its prey.  While it can instinctively change color in an instant to match the ocean floor, the lack of light in the depths makes camouflage largely irrelevant.

Combat:  Moving in the manner of a jellyfish or sculling slowly along the ocean floor, the octo-jelly’s hunting method is to position itself directly above its intended prey and then drop down, enfolding the prey completely in its webbed tentacles.  The octo-jelly has two attacks agains the trapped prey; a bite with its horny beak that inflicts 1d10 points of damage and a smothering attack in its clammy mass, which causes another 1d6 points of damage.  Once trapped, no further attack rolls are necessary, both types of damage are inflicted each round until the prey escapes or is consumed.  A trapped prey can free itself at the beginning of any round with a successful saving throw vs. petrification (at a -1 penalty).  Because the octo-jelly is so soft, all attacks directed at it cause full damage to anyone trapped inside its mass.

Although fragile, it has virtually unshakable morale.  An octo-jelly will not retreat until it has lost 75% of its hit points; under absolutely no other circumstances will it ever retreat.  When attacked by a stronger foe, the octo-jelly can release a luminous cloud of glowing blue-green particles.  Anyone caught in this cloud (20 feet high by 30 feet wide by 30 feet long) is blinded for one full turn, losing all initiative and defending against any attacks at a -2 penalty.

Habitat/Society:  The octo-jelly is solitary, due largely to the difficulty of finding a stable food source for even a small gathering in the ocean depths.  No more than two (a male and a female) will be found together, and then only during the mating season.  When the creature’s eggs hatch, the young live for a short time within the mother’s protecteive tentacle bell, but they soon disperse in search of food.  These creatures rarely come to the surface, unless driven upward by some major undersea disturbance or cataclysm.

Ecology:  The octo-jelly eats any animal it has a chance to kill.  In return, it is eaten by anything that can catch and kill it, meaning virtually all of its neighbors; there are few clear-cut distinctions between predator and prey in the ocean depths.  

Because it is softer than octopi that live near the surface, the skin of the octo-jelly is useless for commercial purposes.  It is edible, however.  If its ink particles can be collected, they might be used as an ingredient in the ink used to create such spell scrolls as light, continual light, and the various prismatic spells.  An octo-jelly carries enough particles to provide sufficient ink for one written spell.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #235 (1996).


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

Sounds like tremorsense.  Also Imp Grab and Constrict triggered by the bite attack.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2009)

Does tremorsense work through the water? After all, it swims over prey, then drops onto them. So I'm not sure if tremorsense or blindsight is the more appropriate ability.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

Yep, tremorsense is perfect in this case.

"Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water."

They are the same size and HD as a giant octopus.  Use the same ability scores (Str 20, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3)?


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> D'oh!  I meant to fix that shortsword/shortspear error earlier.
> 
> Good suggestions on the languages.
> 
> Updated.




That looks fine & dandy.

I'll just post the "Monster" version of the Deepwater Octopus I came up with, and then call it finished.


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2009)

*Deepwater Octopus (alternative version)*

*Deepwater Octopus
*Medium Magical Beast (Aquatic)
*Hit* *Dice:* 3d10-3 (13 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armour* *Class:* 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +3/+3 [_+1 per grappling tentacle_]
*Attack:* Tentacle +4 melee (1d2) or shortspear +4 melee (1d6)
*Full* *Attack:* Primary tentacle +4 melee (1d2) and 5 tentacles +2 melee (1d2) and bite +2 melee (1d4); or shortspear +4 melee (1d6) and 2 shortspears +2 melee (1d6) and bite +2 melee (1d4)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tentacle or shortspear)
*Special* *Attacks:* All-around tentacles, constrict, expert grappler, gnawing beak, improved grab
*Special* *Qualities:* Bioluminescence, blindsense 20 ft., DR 5/slashing or piercing, ink cloud, jet, rubbery body, superior low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 10, Dex 15, Con 9, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 10
*Skills:* Escape Artist +12, Hide +8, Listen +5, Move Silently +4* [_+8 in water_], Spot +7, Swim +10
*Feats:* Alertness, Blind-Fight (B), Multiattack (B), Stealthy
*Environment:* Cold aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, cluster (2-12) or colony (10-40)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* Standard goods (pearls, jewellery & artworks?)
*Alignment:* Usually neutral good
*Advancement:* 4–6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large) or by character class
*Level* *Adjustment:* +3?

_A floating arrangement of greenish lights resolves into an octopus, with a large body and slim, dainty tentacles longer than a man is tall. It has the pallid skin and huge eyes of a creature that sees very little light._

Deepwater octopuses are mysterious cephalopods that farm shellfish, worms[FONT=&quot] and shrimp [/FONT]around hydrothermal vents in the abyssal depths of the ocean. Although they have learned to be capable fighters to deal with marine predators they have little experience with hostile sapients and are peaceful, curious and benevolent creatures. Most reside in a state of semi-innocence and possess no weapons. The few colonies that have been recently attacked by hostile wildlife have crafted bone spears to defend themselves with.

These cephalopods have learned how to use tools and practice animal husbandry. They are fine sculptors but have no concept of money, spellcasting or religion. Deepwater octopus society is remarkably egalitarian, with all members having (nearly) equal standing and working together for the common good. Particularly powerful octopuses are valued for their greater ability to help the colony, but do not have any higher authority.

Deepwater octopuses can move about dry land by slowly dragging themselves along with their tentacles. They can not breathe air like the Kraken, so must soon return to water or drown.

An average deepwater octopus has a 15 foot armspan and weighs around 65 pounds.

These creatures speak a language based on patterns of bioluminescence and beak-clicks, making it very difficult for other races to communicate with them.

 *Combat*
A deepwater octopus can strike with up to six of its eight tentacles simultaneously when making a full attack, dividing its attacks among as many opponents as it likes without penalty. A deepwater octopus can bring all six of its tentacle attacks to bear against an opponent of its own size or more, it can attack a creature 1 size smaller with 4 tentacles, and opponents 2 or more sizes smaller with 2 tentacles.

An opponent can attack a deepwater octopus’s tentacles with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A deepwater octopus’s tentacles have 4 hit points each. If a deepwater octopus is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a deepwater octopus’s tentacles deals 2 points of damage to the creature. A deepwater octopus usually withdraws from combat if it loses four tentacles. The creature regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days.

*All-Around* *Tentacles (Ex):* A deepwater octopus can attack and defend in all directions without penalty and can not be flanked.

*Bioluminescence (Ex):* A deepwater octopus can produce an eerie blue light from specialized spots on its skin. It has complete conscious control of the pattern and brightness of the light-spots and can create anything between a glimmer fainter than a candle to a glow equal to a lamp, clearly illuminates a 15-foot radius and giving shadowy illumination out to a 30-foot radius. It can opt to completely extinguish its organic lights if it wants to use the concealment of darkness.

*Blindsense (Ex): *A deepwater octopus can locate creatures within a 20-foot radius by feeling water-movements with its sensitive tentacles. This ability works only when the octopus is underwater.

*Constrict* *(Ex):* Every round a deepwater octopus maintains a grapple it can automatically deal 1d4 points of constriction damage, the damage is increased by 1 for each additional tentacle the octopus constricts the opponent with.

A grappled opponent can use a standard grapple action to attempt to break the constriction, for every point they beat the octopus's grapple check they break the hold of one tentacle. They need to beat the deepwater octopus's grapple check by a number greater than the number of tentacles it is holding them with to entirely break free of the grapple.

_Example:_ a deepwater octopus is holding a triton adventuress with five tentacles, an average deepwater octopus constricting with 5 tentacles inflicts 1d4+4 damage. The triton tries to break the constriction. The octopus rolls 13 on its grapple check, the triton a 16. Since the triton rolled 3 higher, she breaks the hold of 3 tentacles and only takes 1d4+1 constriction damage from the remaining two tentacles. She'd have needed to roll 5 or more higher than the octopus's grapple check to break free.

*Expert* *Grappler* *(Ex):* If a deepwater octopus chooses to grapple with its tentacles and remain ungrappled itself, it takes a –10 penalty on its grapple checks instead of the normal –20 penalty.

*Gnawing* *Beak* *(Ex):* If a deepwater octopus seeks to bite an opponent it is grappling, the attack is resolved as a primary attack (bite +4 melee for 1d4 damage).

*Improved* *Grab* *(Ex):* To use this ability, a deepwater octopus must hit an opponent of any size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

If the octopus hits an opponent with multiple tentacles as part of a full attack it only rolls one grapple check to establish a hold, but it gets a bonus to the grapple check equal to the number of tentacles it hits with.

*Ink* *Cloud* *(Ex):* A deepwater octopus can emit a cloud of glowing ink in a 10 foot radius sphere once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment, which the octopus normally uses to escape a losing fight. Any creature in the area of effect is stained with blue luminescence for 4d4 rounds, with the same effects as a _faerie fire_ spell. If they succeed at a DC11 Reflex save they are only stained for 1d3 rounds.

The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Rubbery* *Body* *(Ex):* A deepwater octopus's boneless and elastic body gives it damage resistance 5 against bludgeoning damage, which includes most crushing and constriction attacks, and also allows it to squeeze through narrow confines as it if were two size category smaller than it actually is.

*Superior Low-Light Vision (Ex):* A deepwater octopus large eyes see five times as far as a human in shadowy conditions.

*Skills*
A deepwater octopus also can squeeze and contort its body, giving it a +10 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks. Deepwater octopuses have a +4 racial bonus to Hide and their keen eyesight gives them a +4 racial bonus to Spot, they gain a +4 racial bonus to Move Silently checks when in the water. A deepwater octopus has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered, and can use either its Dexterity or its Strength bonus for Swim checks, whichever is better. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*Advanced Deepwater Octopuses*
Deepwater octopuses usually only gain levels in NPC classes, generally investing their skill points in Craft, Handle Animal, Perform and Profession skills so they can create art and raise food. Since they have no idea of spellcasting or religion, they usually gain levels in Commoner, Expert or Warrior. A few gain levels in Aristocrat, although these are more like poets and judges than most surface-dweller's concept of a nobleperson. They have no position of authority, they're more historian-advisor and entertainer.

As a deepwater octopus grows in size its arms become proportionally longer and thinner.

*Big Deepwater Octopus
*Medium Magical Beast (Aquatic)
*Hit* *Dice:* 5d10 (27 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armour* *Class:* 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +5/+7 [_+1 per grappling tentacle_]
*Attack:* Tentacle +7 melee (1d2+2) or shortspear +7 melee (1d6+2)
*Full* *Attack:* Primary tentacle +7 melee (1d2+2) and 5 tentacles +5 melee (1d2+1) and bite +5 melee (1d4+1); or shortspear +7 melee (1d6+2) and 2 shortspears +5 melee (1d6+1) and bite +5 melee (1d4+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft. (15 ft. with tentacle or shortspear)
*Special* *Attacks:* All-around tentacles, constrict, expert grappler, gnawing beak, improved grab
*Special* *Qualities:* Bioluminescence, blindsense 20 ft., DR 5/slashing or piercing, ink cloud, jet, rubbery body, superior low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 10
*Skills:* Escape Artist +12, Hide +8, Listen +6, Move Silently +4* [_+8 in water_], Spot +8, Swim +10
*Feats:* Alertness, Blind-Fight (B), Multiattack (B), Stealthy
*Environment:* Cold aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, cluster (2-12) or colony (10-40)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* Standard goods (pearls, jewellery & artworks?)
*Alignment:* Usually neutral good
*Advancement:* 6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large) or by character class
*Level* *Adjustment:* +4?

A big deepwater octopus has a 25 to 30 foot armspan and weighs around 250-300 pounds.

 *Combat*
Tentacles 6 hit points, 3 damage to octopus if severed. Other abilities as above, except:

*Bioluminescence (Ex):* A big deepwater octopus can produce light up to the brightness of a torch, clearly illuminates a 20-foot radius and giving shadowy illumination out to a 40-foot radius.

*Constrict (Ex):* Every round a big deepwater octopus maintains a grapple it can automatically deal 1d4+2 points of constriction damage, the damage is increased by 1d2 for each additional tentacle the octopus constricts the opponent with.

A grappled opponent can use a standard grapple action to attempt to break the constriction, for every point they beat the octopus's grapple check they break the hold of one tentacle. They must beat the big deepwater octopus's grapple check by a number greater than the number of tentacles it is holding them with to entirely break free of the grapple.

_Example:_ a big deepwater octopus is holding a triton adventuress with five tentacles, an average deepwater octopus constricting with 5 tentacles inflicts 1d4+4d2 damage. The triton tries to break the constriction. The octopus rolls 13 on its grapple check, the triton a 16. Since the triton rolled 3 higher, she breaks the hold of 3 tentacles and only takes 1d4+1d2 constriction damage from the remaining two tentacles. She'd have needed to roll 5 or more higher than the octopus's grapple check to break free.

*Gnawing* *Beak* *(Ex):* Bite +7 melee (1d4+2) against grappled foes.

*Ink Cloud (Ex):* 15 ft. radius sphere, Ref DC12. Save DC Charisma-based.

*Giant Deepwater Octopus
*Large Magical Beast (Aquatic)
*Hit* *Dice:* 7d10+7 (45 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armour* *Class:* 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +7/+15 [_+1 per grappling tentacle_]
*Attack:* Tentacle +10 melee (1d3+4) or shortspear +10 melee (1d8+4)
*Full* *Attack:* Primary tentacle +10 melee (1d3+4) and 5 tentacles +8 melee (1d3+2) and bite +8 melee (1d6+2); or shortspear +10 melee (1d6+4) and 2 shortspears +8 melee (1d6+2) and bite +8 melee (1d6+2)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (20 ft. with tentacle or shortspear)
*Special* *Attacks:* All-around tentacles, constrict, expert grappler, gnawing beak, improved grab
*Special* *Qualities:* Bioluminescence, blindsense 30 ft., DR 5/slashing or piercing, ink cloud, jet, rubbery body, superior low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 10
*Skills:* Escape Artist +12, Hide +6, Listen +6, Move Silently +4* [_+8 in water_], Spot +8, Swim +10
*Feats:* Alertness, Blind-Fight (B), Iron Will, Multiattack (B), Stealthy
*Environment:* Cold aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, cluster (2-12) or colony (10-40)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 6
*Treasure:* Standard goods (pearls, jewellery & artworks?)
*Alignment:* Usually neutral good
*Advancement:* 8-9 HD (Large) or by character class
*Level* *Adjustment:* +5?

A giant deepwater octopus has a 40 to 50 foot armspan and weighs between 750 and 1500 pounds.

 *Combat*
Tentacles 8 hit points, 4 damage to octopus if severed. Other abilities as above, except:

*Bioluminescence (Ex):* A giant deepwater octopus can produce light up to the brightness of a hooded lantern, clearly illuminates a 30-foot radius and giving shadowy illumination out to a 60-foot radius.

*Constrict (Ex):* 1d6+4 damage, increased by 1d3 for each additional tentacle.

*Gnawing* *Beak* *(Ex):* Bite +10 melee (1d6+4) against grappled foes.

*Ink Cloud (Ex):* 20 ft. radius sphere, Ref DC13. Save DC Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yep, tremorsense is perfect in this case.
> 
> "Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water."
> 
> They are the same size and HD as a giant octopus.  Use the same ability scores (Str 20, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3)?




I'd fancy tweaking them a little from the Giant Octopus. Since this thing's mostly  jelly, it may be a little weaker and stupider than a standard Giant Octopus (Str 18? Int 1?). Maybe give it a higher Con to compensate, since although its flesh is fragile it can absorb a lot of damage?

So, how about Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 3?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2009)

That's a lot of octopus, Cleon!

Cleon's ability scores work for me.


----------



## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

It's Octopalooza!  

Those ability scores look good.

Added to Homebrews.

Shall we drop the natural armor altogether?  The original had only AC 10.

Should we retain jet, or drop it?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2009)

Let's drop natural armor. They're squishy.


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2009)

freyar said:


> That's a lot of octopus, Cleon!
> 
> Cleon's ability scores work for me.






Shade said:


> It's Octopalooza!




Thanks guys, I like the way they came out apart from the LA's, which look a bit shaky to me. I was going to drop Level Adjustment altogether and leave them as NPC monsters, but ended up sticking in a number I just pulled out of my ear.



Shade said:


> Those ability scores look good.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> ...




I was assuming it'd have no natural armour.

Hadn't thought about Jet, but I guess we should drop it. There's no mention of them using jet-propulsion, and the "moving in the manner of a jellyfish or sculling slowly along the ocean floor" suggests they're sluggish swimmers.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

Updated.

Do we want to do anything special with the "luminous ink", or does the standard octopus ink suffice?

Skills: 11
Giant octopi have a rank each in Listen and Spot, and the rest in Hide.  These things are blind, so we can drop Spot.

Feats: 3
Giant octopi have Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide), Toughness.  I hate Toughness.


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Do we want to do anything special with the "luminous ink", or does the standard octopus ink suffice?




Obscuring ink like the standard octopus does it for me.



Shade said:


> Skills: 11
> Giant octopi have a rank each in Listen and Spot, and the rest in Hide.  These things are blind, so we can drop Spot.




It needs Hide and Move Silently to be any good at its sneak-up-and-engulf tactic, probably with a hefty racial bonus. Any odd points left over could go into Listen.

Maybe 5 ranks in Hide, 4 ranks in MS and 2 ranks in Listen with a +6 racial bonus to all three skills? If we give it Skill Focus (Hide) and Stealthy, that works out as:

*Skills:* Hide +12, Listen +9, Move Silently +12



Shade said:


> Feats: 3
> Giant octopi have Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide), Toughness.  I hate Toughness.




I'd swap Alertness for Stealth, keep Skill Focus (Hide) and substitute Toughness for something actually useful.

How about Great Fortitude, since its hard to kill despite its soft flesh?


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

That all sounds good!

Updated.

CR 7, since it has less attacks than a standard giant octopus?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2009)

All looks good, and CR 7 sounds ok.

Though I do kind of like the idea of ink that dazzles.  Something like the deep-dwellers above.


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## Cleon (Sep 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> CR 7, since it has less attacks than a standard giant octopus?




Its challenge rating should be much less than a giant octopus, I'd put it at Challenge Rating 5.

A giant octopus has 9 attacks, 8 of which have a 20 foot reach, and can attack multiple foes simultaneously.

The Octo-Jelly has only one attack with a 10 foot reach, and much lower damage capacity (one 1d6+4 constriction plus a 1d10+6 bite) than a giant octopus's eight tentacles (1d4+5 attack or 2d8+6 constriction) plus bite (1d8+2).

Stat-wise, a Octo-Jelly is more comparable to a Giant Constrictor Snake than a Giant Octopus. The snake is CR5 and is in several respects (grapple check, AC) tougher than the Octo-Jelly.

Oh, and do you think it needs a racial bonus to grapple checks like a standard SRD squid or octopus?

EDIT: Come to think of it, the SRD octopus does NOT have a racial bonus to grapple. That does not seem right to me.


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2009)

Hmm, you're right about the CR.

Yes, I'd give it a racial grapple bonus, too.


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> Hmm, you're right about the CR.
> 
> Yes, I'd give it a racial grapple bonus, too.




+4 racial bonus to grapple like the SRD squid, giving it grapple +18?


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## freyar (Sep 20, 2009)

+4 racial sounds right.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

Updated.

An octo-jelly is 9 feet long and 5 feet across, weighing about x pounds.  (Most deep sea creatures lack weight, so we can drop it if you'd like).

Do we want to do anything with this?



> If its ink particles can be collected, they might be used as an ingredient in the ink used to create such spell scrolls as light, continual light, and the various prismatic spells.  An octo-jelly carries enough particles to provide sufficient ink for one written spell.


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2009)

If we're not doing the luminescent ink, let's drop that.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 21, 2009)

Let's drop it.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> An octo-jelly is 9 feet long and 5 feet across, weighing about x pounds.  (Most deep sea creatures lack weight, so we can drop it if you'd like)




We could safely drop the weight, but there's no harm in sticking 1000 pounds in there if we wanted to, or whatever other weight we fancy. After all, if the PCs learn Octo-Jelly flesh is a delicacy they'll want to know how many coppers it sells for per pound, and how much of it there is on the corpse.

I'd have kept the luminous ink cloud (just said it glowed in the description rather than being black, but keeping the properties the same), but it works just the same without it.

Apart from that, it looks fine & finished to me.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

I changed "jet-black" to "luminous" in the ink spray writeup.  

Next...

*Octo-Hide*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ocean depths
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: Sw 12
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Cold generation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Continuous damage, luminous cloud, immune to cold
Magic Resistance: Nil
SIZE: H (20’ across)
MORALE: Fearless (20)(see below)
XP VALUE: 4,000

The octo-hide, a relative of the octo-jelly, is a bottom-dwelling octopus fo the deepest oceans.  Enormous in size (20 feet or more across), with comparatively short, webbed tentacles, it might be of any color and changes hues frequently.

The octo-hide will try to get close enough to bite the prey.  To disable prey so it can close in for the kill, each round it can generate a cone of cold 10 feet wide and 30 feet long that inflicts 3d6 points of damage (save vs. spell for half).  The octo-hide itself is immune to all cold-based attacks.  The beak inflicts 2d6 points of damage.  On a beak hit, the octo-hide’s tentacles wrap around the prey so that no further attack rolls are necessary.

The octo-hide is ferocious, but if the battle goes against it (the creature loses 75% of its hit points), the octo-hide retreats, releasing any prey and covering its withdrawal with the same sort of blinding cloud as the octo-jelly (lose initiative and -2 on defense for one full turn).  The octo-hide’s cloud is 40 feet high by 60 feet wide by 60 feet long.

Octo-hides are solitary, due to the difficulty of finding a stable supply of food for more than one octo-hide in a small area.  The octo-hide mating season is brief, and the eggs are abandoned as soon as they are laid.  The octo-hide preys on both swimmers and bottom-crawlers.  Its ink is used in much the same way as that of an octo-jelly, and has the same value as a scroll-ink ingredient.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #235 (1996).


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

Magical beast, then.  Cone of cold as SLA or something like a breath weapon?  Think it should have a camouflage ability to go with the changing color, or just make that flavor text?


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Yeah, I think it has to be a magical beast.

I think a simple cold-based cone-shaped breath weapon will suffice.

The regular octopus Hide bonus based on color-changing is probably enough.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I think it has to be a magical beast.
> 
> I think a simple cold-based cone-shaped breath weapon will suffice.
> 
> The regular octopus Hide bonus based on color-changing is probably enough.




I was thinking the same on all those points, so I agree with your exquisite judgement.

Since it's basically an Octo-Jelly upsized by one category, we can just apply size advancement to the 'Jelly's abilities, give it 10 HD and convert it to a Magical Beast. That would change its stats as follows:

*Octopus, Octo-Hide*
Huge Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 10d10+40 (95 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 12 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+26*
Attack: Bite +16 melee (2d6+9)
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee (2d6+9)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Cone of cold, constrict 1d8+8, improved grab
Special Qualities: Blind, immunity to cold, ink cloud, low-light vision, tremorsense 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 3
Skills: Escape Artist +11, Hide +7, Listen +9, Move Silently +11, Swim +16 *plus 2 more points*
Feats: Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (Hide), Stealthy *plus one more feat*

According to standard advancement it should have bite 2d8 instead of 2d6, but the original has the latter.

I'd put its extra skill points in Hide and give it a higher racial bonus in that skill - it is called an Octo-_*Hide*_, after all.

What do you fancy for the extra feat?

Should we give it the Cold subtype instead of immunity to cold?

Does that look OK to you.

All it leaves is the Cone of Cold attack.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I agree with your assessments of Cold subtype and a greater Hide bonus.  +10?

Weapon Focus or Improved Initiative for the additional feat?


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I agree with your assessments of Cold subtype and a greater Hide bonus.  +10?
> 
> Weapon Focus or Improved Initiative for the additional feat?




I was thinking about doubling it to +12 to give it Hide +15, but a racial bonus of +10 is fine. That gives it a respectable +13 score in Hide - unlucky for those that encounter it! Either works for me.

As for the feats, I guess Weapon Focus works better for me than Improved Initiative, but neither add much to its wrestle & bite strategy.

Maybe something thematically appropriate for survival in its harsh environment, like Endurance?


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

Imp Init or Ability Focus on the breath weapon, maybe.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Ability Focus isn't a bad idea, since it relies on its breath weapon to debilitate prey.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2009)

Shade said:


> Ability Focus isn't a bad idea, since it relies on its breath weapon to debilitate prey.




Speaking of that, its breath weapon just does damage, and that does little to debilitate opponents in AD&D. I've been wondering whether we should add an effect to reduce the targets movement/initiative/abilities, so it actually does what it says on the can.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2009)

Here's the text on the breath weapon:


> To disable prey so it can close in for the kill, each round it can generate a cone of cold 10 feet wide and 30 feet long that inflicts 3d6 points of damage (save vs. spell for half).



I don't actually see what you mean about the breath reducing movement or init.  What do you mean?


----------



## Shade (Sep 24, 2009)

Yeah, I'm not seeing it either. 

Generally, in 3x, cold effect underwater don't cause any additional problems for their victims.


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I'm not seeing it either.
> 
> Generally, in 3x, cold effect underwater don't cause any additional problems for their victims.




My point is that hit points of damage don't disable opponents, it either doesn't impair a target's abilities (+ve hp) or renders them unconscious or dead.

So, unless its referring to rendering its prey unconscious, the flavour text doesn't quite match the functionality of its cold breath.

It's just a minor niggle, but I felt we could do something with it if we wanted to.


----------



## Shade (Sep 25, 2009)

I took it as "disables the prey by nearly killing it", possibly leaving it staggered/unconscious at less than 0 hp.   

But I see where you're coming from, it's just flavor text that could be interpreted any way.  I'd rather not give it anything special over the multitudes of other aquatic creatures with cold-based attacks, though.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> I took it as "disables the prey by nearly killing it", possibly leaving it staggered/unconscious at less than 0 hp.
> 
> But I see where you're coming from, it's just flavor text that could be interpreted any way.  I'd rather not give it anything special over the multitudes of other aquatic creatures with cold-based attacks, though.




That's OK by me.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2009)

In that case, are you OK with Ability Focus for the other feat?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 26, 2009)

Shade said:


> In that case, are you OK with Ability Focus for the other feat?




Well I'd accept it, although DC19 is already pretty good for its probable Challenge Rating. Something to boost its beak damage would work better for me (Power Attack, Improved Critical (beak), Improved Natural Attack (beak)), and I suspect be of more value in play.

I think I prefer Improved Critical out of those three.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2009)

I usually think of Improved Crit as a waste of a feat for a base monster, since augmented crit is a standard monster ability (and Imp Nat Attack is worse), but I could be persuaded.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 27, 2009)

freyar said:


> I usually think of Improved Crit as a waste of a feat for a base monster, since augmented crit is a standard monster ability (and Imp Nat Attack is worse), but I could be persuaded.




I knew someone was going to say that, but couldn't think of any other SRD combat feats that seemed appropriate.

We could compromise on Weapon Focus (bite), I suppose.


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2009)

Well, we could think of Imp Crit as a "customization" feat here.  WF or Power Attack work, though.


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

I'd be fine with Improved Critical, WF, or Power Attack.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

Updated.

CR 8?  It has far fewer attacks that the also CR 8 giant octopus, but has the breath weapon, a better chance to hit, and double the hit points.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> CR 8?  It has far fewer attacks that the also CR 8 giant octopus, but has the breath weapon, a better chance to hit, and double the hit points.




I'd say CR7. We made the Octo-Jelly CR5 and it's only 2 hit dice and a size category bigger, plus its breath weapon doesn't do that much damage.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm convinced.  Updated.   Finished?


----------



## freyar (Oct 2, 2009)

Looks pretty good to me.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 3, 2009)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good to me.




Yup, looks fine. Let's move on.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2009)

Here's a leftover request from (far) upthread...

*Ray, Electric*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical salt water
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: Sw 9
HIT DICE: 2+4
THAC0: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise on a 1-8, electrical shock
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6'long)
MORALE: Average (8)
XP VALUE: None given

This tropical ray is most often found at depths up to 200 feet in warm ocean waters, though it has also been encountered within wading distance of shore.  A slow swimmer, the electric ray most often buries itself in the sandy floor of the sea to avoid its enemies; if buried, it is considered invisible.  The ray uses its electrical shock to stun or kill the smaller fish upon which it feeds.  This can be painful, but is harmless to man-sized creatures.

However, when stepped on or when threatened by larger predators, the ray releases its stored energy in one burst, with a radius of 15 feet.  Creatures in thes area must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or be stunned (reeling and unable to take coherent actions) for 2d4 rounds.  Despite saving throws, the following electrical damage is taken: those within 5 feet take 2d6 points of damage, those within 10 feet take 1d6, and those within 15 feet take 1d3.  Those within 30 feet feel a slight tingle, but are otherwise unaffected.

The ray recharges itself in 5d4 rounds, and can release a major shock up to five rounds per day.  After delivering a burst, the ray flees.

Originally appear in Dragon Magazine #116 (1986).  These are the MCA4 revised stats.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2009)

Maybe a mild electric shock from a melee attack and a bigger burst like shocker lizards?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Sure!

Boosting a stingray's stats to Medium yields...

Str 12, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4

Look reasonable?


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

Works for me!


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2009)

Hide 2, Spot 3? Stealthy?  CR 1?


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium)?

BTW, here's the real deal:
Electric ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This one's probably the closest to what they describe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_(genus)


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Seems like a reasonable choice for advancement.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Updated.

Are we finished already?


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Looks like it.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

In that case, it's time to set the spider-sense tingling!

*Raft/Swamp Spider*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 2+2
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: J-N, Q
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DMG/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATT.: See text
SPECIAL DEF.: See text
MAGIC RES.: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The raft or swamp spider is found along lake shores and in marsh areas. She makes her den by the water’s shore and waits for prey to appear on or beneath the surface of the water. She then scurries across the surface of the water, skimming over it with the aid of the liquid’s surface tension. Trailing behind her is a safety cable anchored to shore so she can pull herself back in should that prove necessary.

When threatened, the swamp spider can hide underwater by walking down along the side of the marsh or on the lake bottom. The many hairs on her body and legs capture and hold air bubbles sufficient for from 10 to 12 hours or more of breathing. Also, the air bubbles provide buoyancy sufficient to bring her back to the surface when she wishes.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #67 (1982).

Raft spider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

The real world one is probably Fine, so are these the giant/monstrous version?  If so, are we doing different sizes as in the SRD?


----------



## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Yeah, these are "giant" versions.

I'm content to just stat 'em as Medium, with advancement to a few larger sizes, like some of the variant giant spiders that popped up later in 3.5 publications.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2009)

So take a giant spider, give it an Ex ability to walk on water and an air bubble Sq? And make notes on how land-lubbing adventurers could steal the air bubble for their own use after they kill it?


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> So take a giant spider, give it an Ex ability to walk on water and an air bubble Sq? And make notes on how land-lubbing adventurers could steal the air bubble for their own use after they kill it?



That sounds like the right approach.  No poison or web spinning, I think, except maybe for the "safety line."

I love the image of the air bubble on the head.


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Per Wikipedia, it apparently can spin a normal web as well.


----------



## freyar (Nov 14, 2009)

Web is good, then!

Air Bubble (Ex): When a raft spider climbs under the water, hairs on its body hold an air bubble around it.  The raft spider can breath from this air bubble for one hour per point of Constitution before it risks drowning.  Because of the air bubble, the spider is bouyant and must climb along rocks, sand, or plants to avoid floating to the surface; the raft spider does not actually swim.

If the raft spider is killed, a Small or Medium creature may sever one of its legs and breath from the air bubble attached to that leg for up to one hour.  Smaller creatures may use a fraction of a leg, while Large creatures must use the body and head of the spider.  Huge and larger creatures cannot use a raft spider's air bubble to breathe underwater.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 14, 2009)

Hmm...

Real-world raft spiders are venomous, like almost all spiders, so it should have a poison bite.

I'm pretty sure _Dolomedes_ does not trap their prey with their silk, either as a trap-sheet or by throwing, it simply grabs victims with its jaws and front legs (Improved Grab?). They do use their silk for a safety-line, breeding or to build a shelter*. Therefore, I'd drop the silk-throwing and trap-sheets and just leave them a safety line and tough (but non-trapping) web-sheets to make a shelter.

*If I remember correctly, they mostly build shelters for their young.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

So add back poison and revise them to pure hunting spiders?


----------



## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> So add back poison and revise them to pure hunting spiders?



I guess so!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 17, 2009)

Yeah, I was going to mention all spiders are venomous...

I'm pretty sure that this is less a fishing spider and more a diving bell spider, in which case the web is entirely appropriate.


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

We can do both!  

So poison for both, fishing spider/raft spider gets the water walk and tether, while diving bell spider gets the air bubble and standard web?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 17, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah, I was going to mention all spiders are venomous...




I'm afraid not, when I said "Real-world raft spiders are venomous, like _*almost all*_ spiders" I meant it. Like so much in life there are exceptions. The family *Uloboridae* includes spiders that have lost their venom glands. 



demiurge1138 said:


> I'm pretty sure that this is less a fishing spider and more a diving bell spider, in which case the web is entirely appropriate.




It seems quite clear to me it's meant to be a _Dolomedes_ type "fishing spider". Diving bell spiders don't run across the water as described, indeed most live their whole lives underwater.

More to the point, giant versions of _Argyroneta aquatica_ already had official stats in AD&D five years before that *Dragon *article saw print. They're pretty obviously the basis for the (Giant) Water Spider in the 1st edition _*Monster Manual*_ (December 1977), while _*Dragon #67*_ is dated November 1982.


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

Oh, I'm with Shade, let's just do both!  It's not much difference either way!

Edit: as for the poison, not all _giant_ spiders need to have venom strong enough to affect PCs, though it can make them more fun sometimes.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2009)

It looks like Stormwrack has suggestions for building diving spiders...

Diving Spider, Monstrous
Some breeds of monstrous spider are adapted for an aquatic existence. Rather than constructing webs, they build submerged, air-filled domes of spidersilk where they lie in wait for prey to wander too close.

Diving spiders spend their lives underwater, except for brief trips to the surface to replenish air. The spider's furry body holds air bubbles that it releases into the dome. They are expert swimmers, unlike most spiders.

A monstrous diving spider has the same statistics as a typical monstrous spider, with the following adjustments:

Speed: A monstrous diving spider gains a swim speed of 30 feet.

Special Attacks: A monstrous diving spider retains all the special attacks of the typical monstrous spider, with one change.

Web: Monstrous diving spiders cannot throw a web net, nor do they create sheets of sticky webbing.

Special Qualities: A monstrous diving spider retains all the special qualities of the typical monstrous spider, with the following adjustment.

Tremorsense (Ex): A diving spider's tremorsense allows it to detect and pinpoint creatures in the water as easily as those on land.

Hold Breath (Ex): A diving spider can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 6 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning. For a typical diving spider (Medium or Large), this is 48 rounds, or almost 5 minutes.

Skills: A diving spider has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Environment: Temperate aquatic.



Shall we do our own version, or allow these to suffice for the diving bell version?


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

Well, it's not exactly a stat block, but it probably suffices.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Back to raft spider, then.

What to do with the tether?


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> It looks like Stormwrack has suggestions for building diving spiders...
> 
> *SNIP*
> 
> Shall we do our own version, or allow these to suffice for the diving bell version?




That looks like a reasonable interpretation.

Incidentally, I've already done a 3E take on the AD&D water spider (together with a lot of other 1st/2nd edition spiders), but I'm happy to contribute to another take. Most of mine were Magical Beasts, since I like the way so many AD&D spiders were sapient (up to Average intelligence, in some cases) and sometimes _Evil_.


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> Back to raft spider, then.
> 
> What to do with the tether?




Just modify the standard Monstrous Spider Web ability's "monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size."


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

What happened to the raft spider's air bubble?


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

I dropped it because I thought it was associated with the diving bell spider, not the raft spider.  Was I mistaken?


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

I have no idea! 

Wikipedia says that raft spiders "can submerge altogether to hide from predators" but isn't very specific.

I think we're going to have to ask Cleon and demiurge about this.

Incidentally, looking back at the Stormwrack notes, I don't think they capture the diving bell spiders very well.  We should probably redo those.


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## Cleon (Nov 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> I have no idea!
> 
> Wikipedia says that raft spiders "can submerge altogether to hide from predators" but isn't very specific.
> 
> ...




A raft spider does cover itself with a film of air so it can breathe underwater, although it doesn't build a "diving bell" air bubble web. In 3E terms I'd consider it a variation on Hold Breath.

I'm a bit dubious about the "break off a leg and use it as an aqualung" trick, but considering it's a matter of surface tension that shouldn't even work if the spider is enlarged to man-sized, I may be prepared to forgive it as some form of weird power.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2009)

GIve the raft spiders hold breath?

Anyone else think we should redo the diving bell spiders and pretend that they can have big air bubbles?


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

Yes and maybe?


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

I guess we'll wait on other people to vote on the diving bells.


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Updated the raft spider.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2009)

I'd like to do a new diving spider with a bigger bubble.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2009)

Raft spider seems done.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

Sounds good.  So are we using this air bubble?



freyar said:


> Air Bubble (Ex): When a raft spider climbs under the water, hairs on its body hold an air bubble around it.  The raft spider can breath from this air bubble for one hour per point of Constitution before it risks drowning.  Because of the air bubble, the spider is bouyant and must climb along rocks, sand, or plants to avoid floating to the surface; the raft spider does not actually swim.
> 
> If the raft spider is killed, a Small or Medium creature may sever one of its legs and breath from the air bubble attached to that leg for up to one hour.  Smaller creatures may use a fraction of a leg, while Large creatures must use the body and head of the spider.  Huge and larger creatures cannot use a raft spider's air bubble to breathe underwater.




Should the diving bell spider have a swim speed?


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2009)

Well, I'm happy to use that air bubble or a modified version of it.  I really don't know about the swim speed, though.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, I'm happy to use that air bubble or a modified version of it.  I really don't know about the swim speed, though.




Yes they should have a swim speed, since both the real-world and AD&D versions can swim, albeit not terribly fast.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2009)

Maybe a 20 ft swim speed?


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## Cleon (Nov 27, 2009)

freyar said:


> Maybe a 20 ft swim speed?




That'd do.

Looking at my last post I realise it's misleading, since I meant the "albeit not terribly fast" bit to only apply to the real-world example. The AD&D giant water spider was pretty fast (Swim 15"). I gave my 3E conversion of them swim 40 ft., since I was trying to model the "AD&D monster" version rather than the real-world original.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2009)

Updated.

I'm fine with boosting to 40 ft. if the rest of you desire to do so.

Environment: Temperate swamps?


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2009)

No real preference on the speed.
Environment looks good.
Stats look basically done.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

freyar said:


> No real preference on the speed.
> Environment looks good.
> Stats look basically done.




I'd stick with Swim 20 ft. Real-life diving bell spiders are not particularly fast swimmers.

You should cut the Walk on Water though - _Argyroneta_ can't do that trick like a raft spider can.

I'd also cut the +10 racial bonus to Jump out of Skills.

Apart from that it looks finished.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Here's the next one...

*Barrel spider*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 3”*12”
HIT DICE: 4 + 4
% IN LAIR: 70%
TREASURE TYPE: C
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1/1
DMG/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATT.: See text
SPECIAL DEF.: Nil
MAGIC RES.: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

*Barrel spiders*
This spider’s pedipalps are greatly extended so they sometimes act as an extra pair of legs. The body is covered with a pale yellow film of hairs, making the spider especially sensitive to changes in air pressure and thus very difficult to surprise (roll of 1 on d8). The chelicerae are very strong; the garden variety (normal spider-sized) can crack a beetle’s armor. The giant version of this spider can crack open non-magical plate armor, or pierce non-magical leather or chainmail, on a roll of 1 or 2 on d6, while cracking or piercing magical armor requires a roll of 1 on d6; cracking or piercing armor in this manner lowers its effective armor class to 10. A ring of protection, cloak of displacement, or other similar protection will function normally.

When cornered, this spider hisses, though she does not spit poison. Treat this attack as for a bombardier beetle, with a 20% chance of stunning anyone within a 16’ radius and deafening those not stunned. Stunning lasts for 2-8 rounds, followed by 2-8 rounds of deafness. Those only deafened remain so for 2-12 rounds.


I can't locate a "barrel spider" in Wikipedia or via a quick Google search (beyond those that have appeared in videogames).  Any ideas upon what this is based?


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

No idea where these are from, but I'm getting:
tremorsense or maybe blindsense
some kind of sundering attack (was it the trow that had a sundering kick?)
stunning, deafening hiss attack

Is there an "itsy-bitsy spider" or "waterspout spider" coming up?


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2009)

freyar said:


> Is there an "itsy-bitsy spider" or "waterspout spider" coming up?




Not until April 1st.  

Here's what we gave the trow...

Deforming Sunder (Su): If the trow makes a successful sunder attack against Medium or Heavy metal armor with its kick, the sunder attempt not only deals damage as usual, but the armor becomes deformed. The maximum Dex bonus of the armor is reduced by 1, and the armor takes twice as long as usual to don or remove. These penalties are removed by a Craft check to repair the armor (along with restoring the armor's hit points). These penalties do not stack if the armor is subject to deforming sunder more than once. 

And of course we've got the rend armor ability of the bebelith...

Rend Armor (Ex): If a bebilith hits with both claw attacks, it pulls apart any armor worn by its foe. This attack deals 4d6+18 points of damage to the opponent’s armor. Creatures not wearing armor are unaffected by this special attack. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check.

And there's this...

Wing Slash (Ex): If a slasrath charges, it can end the charge with a wing slash attack. The slasrath makes a +9 melee attack against each creature it threatens at the end of its charge. Each creature hit takes 3d6+10 points of damage. Additionally, if an armor wearing creature takes damage from this attack, the creature must make a Reflex saving throw (DC 19) or the armor is shredded away instantly. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

I think the bebelith's is closest in spirit, if not mechanics.  But let's reduce the damage a bit once we have a base statblock for these.

Normal monstrous spider abilities?


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## Cleon (Dec 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> I can't locate a "barrel spider" in Wikipedia or via a quick Google search (beyond those that have appeared in videogames).  Any ideas upon what this is based?




Yes I do.

When I was doing my own take on that Dragon article's spiders trying to figure out what arachnid the author was talking about caused me considerable puzzlement, but after a lot of Googling I came across an article that used the name "Barrel Spider" for a *Solifugid* (aka sun spider, camel spider, wind scorpion).

Once I saw that everything else clicked - the long pedipalps, the powerful jaws, the yellow body with sensitive hairs, the *hissing* and the lack of any mention of poison (since Solifugae are non-venomous*).*Well like most things in nature there may be a few exceptions, since there's a study that claims one species has venom glands.​Now Solifugae are arachnids but are not true spiders, those of you with access to Dragon #67 will notice that the "Souping Up The Spider" article included several definite non-spider arachnids, the "Daddy Longlegs" harvestman (*Opiliones*) and the "Whip Spider" (*Amblypygi*), which makes it more likely the "Barrel Spider" is another one.

All in all, I'm pretty certain the "Barrel Spider" is a Solifugid.

Although what really puzzles me is why it's at the start of the "Weavers" entry, since there's no mention of it producing silk in its entry and sun spiders don't spin webs.

Incidentally, I vaguely recall seeing some or all three of these spider-kin an official WotC 3E product, but I can't remember which one - maybe a Drow supplement? Failing that, Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors has 3rd edition conversions of them.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

If it is indeed the solifugid, then we can skip 'em, for they are well represented in D&D products throughout the years.

1e - AD&D MM2, Queen of the Demonweb Pits (Q1)
2e - Drow of the Underdark
3e - Lost Empires of Faerûn, Tome of Horrors

Ditto for the whip spider and whip scorpion.


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## Cleon (Dec 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> If it is indeed the solifugid, then we can skip 'em, for they are well represented in D&D products throughout the years.
> 
> 1e - AD&D MM2, Queen of the Demonweb Pits (Q1)
> 2e - Drow of the Underdark
> ...




Ah yes, it was _*Lost Empires of Faerûn*_ I saw the Solifugid in.

I don't own that book, but from what I remember of the Giant Sun Spider's stats it was nothing special, and it certainly don't remember it having the special abilities of the "Souping Up the Spider" version, so I'd be game for us statting up a new take on it.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2009)

I think the rending ability might be enough to warrant a new conversion, if none of the others have anything like that.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm OK with doing our own, as long as we stick with "barrel spider" to avoid confusion with the solifugids.  We can mention they are related, though.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2009)

That works for me.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

Here are the LEoF stats if we want to use any of it for inspiration...

Large Vermin
Hit Dice: 6d8+8+12 (39 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+11
Attack: Bite +6 melee (2d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (2d6+3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, squeeze
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 15, Con 14, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: Climb +7, Hide +2, Spot +4
Feats: --
Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3-5)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: --

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a giant arachnid must hit an opponent that is at least one size category smaller than itself with a claw attack.

Squeeze (Ex): A giant arachnid that gets a hold on an opponent of its own size category or smaller automatically deals damage with both claws and can make a bite attack at its highest attack bonus.

Skills: A giant arachnid receives a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Spot checks.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2009)

What on earth are those hp?  6d8+8+12??  Anyway, I'm not sure I see these quite doing what we want.  I'd probably use chew if we wanted to go with an imp grab/constrict type routine.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

The +8 was probably a typo when I typed 'em up for my files.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

Stick with 4 HD like the Large monstrous spider, but use the solifugid's ability scores (Str 17, Dex 15, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2 compared to the spider's Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2)?


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2009)

Sounds like a good idea.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2009)

+4 natural, a toughish CR 2?  Do they need anything else?


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2009)

Updated.

We still need rend armor damage.  The bebelith deals double bite damage and double damage from Strength.  Stick with this pattern, doing 2d8+8?

I think the potential for stunning may drive these up to CR 3.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2009)

I think that's reasonable for rend armor, though there's a real possibility of ripping someone's nice armor apart in a couple of attacks. 

The stunning really lasts a long time, too.  What if we reduce the duration and/or reduce to dazed instead of stunned?  It could still be CR 3, though maybe the save DC is slightly weak.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2009)

That stunning duration is ridiculous. Make it 1d2 rounds and I'd still argue for them to be CR 3.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

I think 2d8 rounds is a typo; the original would have been 2d4, but I don't know that stunning was the same then or not.  Let's either do 1d2 rounds dazed or 1 round stunned and figure out the CR from that.


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## Cleon (Dec 9, 2009)

freyar said:


> I think 2d8 rounds is a typo; the original would have been 2d4, but I don't know that stunning was the same then or not.  Let's either do 1d2 rounds dazed or 1 round stunned and figure out the CR from that.




The Dragon Magazine article says "Stunning lasts for 2-8 rounds, followed by 2-8 rounds of deafness" for the Hiss, so it's a misinterpretation - it's 2d4, not 2d8.

For my conversion I make it shaken & deafened for 2d4 rounds, then deafened for another 2d4 rounds.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

I'll get behind the 1d2 round stunning.

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

I'm happy enough with it.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2009)

*Crab Spider*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE:2 + 2
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: J-N, Q
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DMG/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATT.: See text
SPECIAL DEF.: See text
MAGIC RES.: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

These spiders are so named because in shape they resemble a crab and because, unlike other spiders, they are able to walk backwards and sideways. They have chameleon-like abilities and can change color and skin texture to match almost any background (glass, crystal, and murals excepted). They surprise on a roll of 1 on d4 because of their camouflage ability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_spider


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2009)

Pretty much normal spiders, though we can make the poison do paralysis according to wikipedia.  Add some camoflage or Hide bonus, I guess.  I also wouldn't mind adding a claw attack or something to the monstrous version.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

Poison should be Dex damage rather than Str, to simulate that paralyzing experience. Camouflage and a beefy racial bonus to Hide checks seems like a good idea.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2009)

All sounds good thus far.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> In each case, crab spiders use their powerful front legs to grab and hold onto prey while paralyzing it with a venomous bite.




2 claws and improved grab?


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2009)

2 claws with Imp Grab sounds good.  Want to add an automatic bite when grappling?


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> 2 claws with Imp Grab sounds good.  Want to add an automatic bite when grappling?




A crab spider uses its legs to wrestle prey, not to damage it, so I don't think a claws attack fits very well. Instead, I'd suggest the same approach as the SRD squid's arms (0) and bite (1d6+1), except with "legs" with improved grab instead of "arms".

A crab spider's forelegs are very powerful, and they can wrassle opponents several times their weight, which suggests either an unusual high Strength or a racial bonus to grapple. I'd prefer a racial bonus.

I'm OK with either an auto-hit bite or a bite with a circumstance bonus to attack when grapple.

Dex-damage poison to paralyse its prey is a fine idea. Makes a change from the other spiders.

EDIT: Although I would mention that crab spider venom is highly potent, so it often kills within seconds (I'm guessing this is because crab spiders are very slow and don't have webs, so usually only get one shot at their victim as they can't chase fleeing prey or entangle them, so must kill or immobilize them on the spot.)

EDITED EDIT: Maybe Dex and Con damage?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

Lots of Dex damage, perhaps. So it can Dex to 0 in one or two bites, then coup de grace. Since these guys are huge and monstrous, I'd be happy with giving them actual claw attacks, much like the tentacles of giant squid actually dealing damage as opposed to their smaller brethren.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2009)

I agree with demiurge here.  These are monstrous, we can increase the forelegs to claw attacks.


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## Cleon (Dec 12, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Lots of Dex damage, perhaps. So it can Dex to 0 in one or two bites, then coup de grace.




Well a Giant Bee has Dex 14 and a Giant Bombadier Beetle Dex 10, so it'll need to do around 2d6 or 2d8 Dex damage to have good odds of paralysing them in one or two bite.



demiurge1138 said:


> Since these guys are huge and monstrous, I'd be happy with giving them actual claw attacks, much like the tentacles of giant squid actually dealing damage as opposed to their smaller brethren.




I thought they were Medium and monstrous.

Well give them claw attacks if you like, although I wouldn't have them do much damage - say, 1d3 or 1d3 apiece (or aclaw).


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2009)

Weak claws are ok.

1d6 or 1d8 primary and secondary Dex damage is ok.  Or it can take 3 bites.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I borrowed the improved grab/bite mechanic from the rhagodessa.

Is +8 racial to Hide enough?


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

I'd go higher given the chameleon abilities.  But it's looking good.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

+12?

Should we boost Str a tad over other spiders since they rely on grabbing prey?


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

I don't think there'd be a problem if we went to Str 13 or even 15.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 15, 2009)

I agree that they should be a bit stronger.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Go with +12 for the Hide bonus, I think.

CR 1?


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

Updated.

Finished with another one?


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

The poison is really ridiculously strong for a CR 1. I'd recommend lowering it for the CR 1, paralyzing a giant bee be damned.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2009)

You know, you're right.  Upthread, I'd suggested either 1d6 or 1d8 primary and secondary Dex damage.  I think 1d6 is enough at CR 1.  It can always bite a few times.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2009)

Fair enough.  I think 1d6 Dex compares favorably to the 1d4 Str and 1d3 Con of the CR 1 monstrous spiders and scorpions.

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

And with that, I think we're good.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2009)

Yup.


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished with another one?




Well I can see a few quibbles.

Most crab spiders have very poor eyesight, relying on touch and vibration to know when an insect's blundered into arms-reach. I'd cut the racial bonus to Spot, or maybe shift it to Listen.

They also don't leap after prey, so the Jump racial bonus should go to (not that it's included in their skill modifiers).

It doesn't have any Chameleon-bonus for Hide checks, yet. Weren't you talking earlier about boosting the racial bonus to Hide to +12?



demiurge1138 said:


> The poison is really ridiculously strong for a CR 1. I'd recommend lowering it for the CR 1, paralyzing a giant bee be damned.




I got around that problem with my conversion by having its poison do double Dex damage to creatures with the Vermin type. Keeps the bee-killing flavour and doesn't increase the threat to PCs.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2009)

Let's just drop the Spot bonus (it's got tremorsense for finding prey, anyway) and Jump bonus.   I'll boost the Hide to +12 to compensate.

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Sounds good. Done now?


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

*Jumping Spider*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 18”/40”
HIT DICE: 2+2
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: J-N, Q
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1/2
DMG/ATTACK: 1-6/1-10
SPECIAL ATT.: See text
SPECIAL DEF.: See text
MAGIC RES.: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The jumping spider has very keen eyesight thanks to her four large eyes. She stalks her prey by creeping slowly upon it, “freezing” whenever it looks her way. When “frozen,” the spider looks very much like a large rock. When she has come within range, she leaps upon her prey. The jumping spider is capable of leaps of at least 40 feet. The spider always has a safety dragline attached to herself, in case the leap does not produce the intended result.

The Dungeon Master should determine whether any damage results from the impact of the spider landing on her victim. If the target is within the bare limits of the spider’s maximum jumping range of 40 feet, a roll of 1 on d6 indicates a successful impact; within 30 feet, the leap will be a “hit” on a roll of 1 or 2 on d6; within 20 feet, a roll of 3 or less is needed; within 10 feet, a roll of 5 or less; and for any distance less than 10 feet, there is an automatic “hit” on the jump. The damage from this blow will be 1-10 points, perhaps modified upward depending on circumstances.

This spider may be found around cliffs, scurrying across open ground, or in rain forests.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #67 (1982).

Jumping spider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Regular spider plus large Hide bonus when sitting still plus leap ability (with a kind of crush attack?).  To go with the crush, we might want to make these toward the large end of monstrous spiders (at least Huge rather than Medium).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2009)

Don't hunting spiders have a racial bonus to Jump checks? I think that's what they're meant to simulate, as well as tarantulas.


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2009)

freyar said:


> Sounds good. Done now?




Yup, looks done.


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Don't hunting spiders have a racial bonus to Jump checks? I think that's what they're meant to simulate, as well as tarantulas.




Yes they do, and a big Spot bonus to - they're already most of the way to being a Salticid.

I'd just give the SRD Hunting Spider a higher Jump bonus (+20?) and the ability to take 10 on Jump checks and apply Dex or Str to Jump. That puts it pretty close to a casual 40 foot leap:

Jump: 0ranks + 3Dex + 4 Speed + 20 racial = +27
Take 10 => 37 foot Jump.

Real-world jumping spiders aren't that big, so I'd keep them Medium at default.

Rather than a crushing attack I'd rather give them a "Leap" special attack that combines a Jump with a Charge (+2 attack bonus) and does double damage.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2009)

We could borrow from the jungle spider, sticking with the racial bonus on Jump checks and adding this ability...

Lunge (Ex): If a jungle spider charges a creature and incoporates a jump as the final part of the charge, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll. Additionally, for every 10 points by which the Jump check exceeds 20, the jungle spider's charge attack deals an additional +1d6 points of damage. For example, a Jump check result of 34 deals +1d6 points of damage, and a Jump check result of 41 deals +2d6 points of damage.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2009)

Any of that is fine with me; you folks are the real-world critter experts.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Additional +8 Hide bonus while immobile?


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> We could borrow from the jungle spider, sticking with the racial bonus on Jump checks and adding this ability...
> 
> Lunge (Ex): If a jungle spider charges a creature and incoporates a jump as the final part of the charge, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll. Additionally, for every 10 points by which the Jump check exceeds 20, the jungle spider's charge attack deals an additional +1d6 points of damage. For example, a Jump check result of 34 deals +1d6 points of damage, and a Jump check result of 41 deals +2d6 points of damage.




That'd do, although plain double damage would be simpler, i.e.:

*Jumping Attack (Ex):* If a jumping spider charges a creature and incorporates a jump as the final part of the charge, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll and does double damage (2d6, or 3d6 on a critical) if it hits.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Additional +8 Hide bonus while immobile?




I think a higher racial bonus to Hide in undergrowth would fit better, since many Jumping Spiders are cryptically coloured. I'd also suggest giving them a racial bonus to Move Silently checks, since they live by sneaking up to within leaping distance of their victim.

+8 racial bonus on Move Silently, plus +8 racial bonus on Hide when in undergrowth, the same as a web-spinning spider sneaking through its web?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

Sounds good.  I retained the immobile bonus as well, following the lead of the various landwyrms.

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2009)

Seems good.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

Wait... is this thing already done?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

It just might be, unless you'd like to change some stuff.


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## Cleon (Dec 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> It just might be, unless you'd like to change some stuff.




Looks almost finished, although I can still dredge up a couple of niggles...

The combat section has "It attacks with a leaping charge one prey is within range." I'm guessing that should be "once".

Don't much care for the very last sentence, I'd rather have something like "*A jumping spider's racial bonus on Hide checks improves to +8 when it is immobile or in forest environments, if it is immobile and in a forest the bonus increases to +12."


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2009)

I don't care for that wording, either.

Updated, using the forest landwyrm's wording.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2009)

*Wolf Spider*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 2+2
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: J-N, Q
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DMG/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATT.: See text
SPECIAL DEF.: See text
MAGIC RES.: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The wolf spider, like the trap-door spider, lives in a silk-lined burrow, but without the door. She tracks prey by sight and by special scent-detecting organs located in the pedipalps. When she sees prey, she sprints after it, captures it, and paralyzes it before returning to her den.

She is very protective of her young, carrying the cocoon under her belly wherever she goes and fighting fiercely for her young. When hatched, wolf spiderlings number from 100-200, and will ride on the mother’s back until they are full grown. If the mother encounters another female wolf spider, she will stop and let her young get off, and then she will fight the other spider to the death. The survivor will adopt the spiderlings of the dead mother.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #67 (1982).


Should the young be treated as a spider swarm if attacked?


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## freyar (Dec 25, 2009)

Regular hunting spider plus scent.  Maybe switch poison to Dex due to paralysis?  Not sure on that point.  Would it be reasonable for the young to act as a spider swarm in combat?


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## Cleon (Dec 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> I don't care for that wording, either.
> 
> Updated, using the forest landwyrm's wording.




"*They have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in forest environments. This bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 when the spider is immobile."

But they already have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, so they wouldn't get any benefit from a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in forest environments, as racial bonuses don't stack.

How about making their immobility bonus a different type? Something like:

*Their racial bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 when in forest environments. An immobile jumping spider gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Hide checks.


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## Cleon (Dec 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> Regular hunting spider plus scent.  Maybe switch poison to Dex due to paralysis?  Not sure on that point.  Would it be reasonable for the young to act as a spider swarm in combat?




I'd just make them a regular Hunting Spider with scent and a ground speed higher than 30 ft. (40 feet? 50 feet?)

Strength damage can immobilize its victims too, but I'd have no objection to switching it to Dex.

If we were being "realistic" I'd say no on the spider swarm of hatchlings, since a wolf-spider's babies would just scatter in real life if their mama can't protect them. Still, this is D&D and I'll confess I've used the "killer baby spider swarm" myself more than once, so it's certainly do-able.

I'll leave it up to you.


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## freyar (Dec 25, 2009)

Well, I agree about the swarm, but I'm just trying to figure out some way to differentiate it from the "regular" monstrous spiders.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 26, 2009)

Yeah, this is just a hunting spider. Let's skip it.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

Fair enough.

How about this one?

*Net-throwing/Fishing spider*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 3”*12”
HIT DICE: 4+4
% IN LAIR: 70%
TREASURE TYPE: C
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1/1
DMG/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATT.: See text
SPECIAL DEF.: Nil
MAGIC RES.: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

These two types have distinctive, though similar, ways of capturing their prey. The net-throwing spider hunts by night with a rectangular web of looped silk which she throws over her prey, entangling it. Another species of net-throwing spider uses a 10x10-foot web which she lays on the ground and camouflages. She then attaches draglines to each corner ‘and conceals herself above the net, holding the ends of the draglines with her legs. Anything that walks over the net is caught up in the web and hoisted aloft to the spider.

Fishing spiders run numerous lines up and down from the ground to their web in a spreading fan shape. The lines break when anything runs into them and thus entangle the creature, allowing the spider to draw it up to her web.


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## freyar (Dec 28, 2009)

Sound like regular web spiders to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 28, 2009)

Yeah, in 3.x ordinary spiders can throw webs. Skip these guys too.


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## Cleon (Dec 29, 2009)

freyar said:


> Sound like regular web spiders to me.




Great minds think alike.

That's how I treated them in my conversion, the only difference is they do not spin large webs (i.e. they have the standard 3E web spiders' net-throwing, but not its web-sheets.). I gave them the ability to drag their netted victims closer like the bolas spider does, just to give them some slight difference from the standard version.


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2009)

How about this one?

*Giant Hunting Spider*
Armor Class: 8
Hit Dice: 2 (M)
Move: 120' (40')
Attacks: 1 bite
Damage: 1d6
No. Appearing: 1d4 (1d12)
Save As: Fighter: 2
Morale: 7 (wild), 8 (tamed)
Treasure Type: Up
Intelligence: 0
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 20

Hunting spiders are fur-covered spiders the size of dogs and are used as watch-animals and hunters in several primitive societies. They may be found in any terrain, arctic to tropical, and the fur of any individual will match its normal surroundings.

In the wild, hunting spiders run in packs to bring down their prey. They do not build webs, but stalk their prey over almost any terrain, and attack with large but nonpoisonous jaws.

Originally appeared in AC9 - Creature Catalogue (1989).


We might play up their pack hunting abilities, maybe giving them a short-range hivemind or the like.


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## freyar (Dec 29, 2009)

Maybe not hivemind, but perhaps extra teamwork bonuses.  The have extra HD compared to other "dog-sized" (Tiny or Small) spiders, so that's another potential point of differentiation.


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## Cleon (Dec 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> Maybe not hivemind, but perhaps extra teamwork bonuses.  The have extra HD compared to other "dog-sized" (Tiny or Small) spiders, so that's another potential point of differentiation.




I believe they're the size of a Riding Dog (e.g. Medium), hence the (M) after the Hit Dice.

Here's my initial proposal from the *Unconverted Vermin* thread:



Cleon said:


> The Giant Hunting Spider doesn't look much different from a regular Medium Hunting Spider that lacks venom.
> 
> Guess we could make it an animal-intelligence Magical Beast so it can be trained. We'd need to add a Good Reflex save (+6) and BAB (add 1 to BAB, grapple and attacks) plus ten-sided HD (2d10+2 with 13 hp) for its Magical Beast levels and some skill ranks (Hide *2*, Spot *3*?) and a feat (Weapon Focus (bite) for bite attack +6?) for its Int 1.
> 
> That just leaves the CR - it's lost its venom and immunity to mind-affecting spells, but gains some better stats. I think I'd leave it CR1.




I think that about covers everything, although I do like the idea of a teamwork bonus. Where you thinking some kind of improved Aid Another (+3 instead of +2) or something like "Pack Attack: If two or more giant hunting spiders attack the same opponent, all the spiders gain a +2 competence bonus on their attack rolls."


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2009)

We could give them some sort of swarmfighting ability, so multiple could fit in the same 5ft square, and gain bonuses for doing so.


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> We could give them some sort of swarmfighting ability, so multiple could fit in the same 5ft square, and gain bonuses for doing so.



That I like!


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2009)

freyar said:


> That I like!




Good idea. Something like:
Swarmfighting (Ex): Two giant hunting spiders can enter the same space and move and fight without penalty. If both the spiders attack the same opponent they both receive a +2 competence bonus to attack and damage checks against that opponent.​


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2009)

Here are precedents for swarmfighting...

Swarmfighting (Ex): Illithocytes can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. An illithocyte can occupy the same 5-foot square in combat with any other illithocyte at no penalty. When an illithocyte engages a Medium or larger creature in melee, and at least one other illithocyte threatens the target, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional illithocyte beyond the first that threatens the same target.

Swarmfighting (Ex): Dragon beetles can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. When a dragon beetle engages a Small or larger creature in melee, and at least one other dragon beetle occupies the target's space, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional dragon beetle beyond the first that occupies the target's space.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2009)

Shade said:


> Here are precedents for swarmfighting...
> 
> Swarmfighting (Ex): Illithocytes can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. An illithocyte can occupy the same 5-foot square in combat with any other illithocyte at no penalty. When an illithocyte engages a Medium or larger creature in melee, and at least one other illithocyte threatens the target, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional illithocyte beyond the first that threatens the same target.
> 
> Swarmfighting (Ex): Dragon beetles can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. When a dragon beetle engages a Small or larger creature in melee, and at least one other dragon beetle occupies the target's space, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional dragon beetle beyond the first that occupies the target's space.




The illithocyte one is closer to what I was thinking. Not sure why it would be a morale bonus though.

Having +1 per additional spider could quickly add up, since up to sixteen hunting spiders could fit around a single Medium or Small-sized foe for a +15 to all their attacks. Should we apply a cap to the bonus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 1, 2010)

The original Swarmfighting feat from Complete Warrior does include a cap--the Dex bonus of the swarmfighters.


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## freyar (Jan 2, 2010)

Dex bonus cap and illithocyte swarmfighting agrees to me.


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## Cleon (Jan 3, 2010)

freyar said:


> Dex bonus cap and illithocyte swarmfighting agrees to me.




Sounds good, so something like:*Swarmfighting (Ex):* Giant hunting spiders can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. A giant hunting spider can occupy the same 5-foot square in combat with any other giant hunting spider at no penalty. When a giant hunting spider engages a Medium or larger creature in melee, and at least one other giant hunting spider threatens the target, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional giant hunting spider beyond the first that threatens the same target. The swarmfighting bonus can not exceed the giant hunting spider's Dexterity bonus.​


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2010)

How about changing the red sentence to "The swarmfighting bonus can not exceed the Dexterity bonus of the swarmfighting giant hunting spider with the lowest Dexterity" just to be concrete.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about changing the red sentence to "The swarmfighting bonus can not exceed the Dexterity bonus of the swarmfighting giant hunting spider with the lowest Dexterity" just to be concrete.




I'd prefer the more dexterous hunting spider to get a bigger cap and not be restricted by their clumsier colleagues. Would changing it to "The swarmfighting bonus can not exceed the Dexterity bonus of the giant hunting spider making the attack" make it clearer?


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2010)

Oh, that's fine, not a big deal to me.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

How about Track rather than Weapon Focus for the feat?   And then give 'em some ranks in Survival?

Should we rename these to avoid confusion with monstrous hunting spiders?  Maybe "pack spider" or "hound spider"?


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2010)

I'll agree to all that.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

I like pack spider and the Track feat.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 1?

Advancement: 3 HD (Medium); 4–7 HD (Large); 8–15 HD (Huge)?

Anything else?


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> How about Track rather than Weapon Focus for the feat?   And then give 'em some ranks in Survival?
> 
> Should we rename these to avoid confusion with monstrous hunting spiders?  Maybe "pack spider" or "hound spider"?




No objections to that.

They look about done.

Challenge Rating 1 seems about right, they're roughly as nasty as the SRD Wolf or Medium Monstrous Spider.

The only addition I can think of is the description's "Fur coloration matches its normal surroundings" suggests they may have a higher racial bonus to Hide checks when in their native terrain. Shall we add "*A pack spider's racial bonus to Hide checks increases to +8 in terrain that matches it's native terrain, due to the camouflage patterns of its fur." to the Skill subentry?


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: 1?
> 
> ...




I'm not sure about advancing them to Huge, I'd prefer the standard triple Hit Dice for 3 HD (Medium); 4-6 HD (Large).

Oh, and since they're Magical Beasts now they should not have the Vermin traits SQ. We could easily give them a "vermin-like" SQ with the same effects, if you really wanted them to have those immunities.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

I don't think they need the immunities, but I do like them eventually getting Huge.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2010)

Updated.

I believe we're finished.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2010)

Since we've run out of unconverted "real world" spiders, here are a couple of giant flies.

Insect #AP AC MV HD THAC0 # of Att Dmg/Att Morale XP Value
Fly, Bluebottle 1-10 6 9, Fl 30 (D) 3 19 1 1-8 Unsteady (5-7) 65 
Fly, Horsefly 1-4 5 6, Fl 27 (D) 6 17 1 2-16 Unsteady (5-7) 270 

*Fly, Giant Bluebottle*

This breed of giant fly prefers carrion, offal, and the like. They are, however, attracted to sweet odors, and creatures covered with blood or open wounds.

*Fly, Giant Horsefly*
The largest of all giant flies, the giant horsefly alights on any creature to attack for blood with its tuberous mouth. After biting, the giant horsefly causes an equal amount of damage the next round by drawing blood, unless driven off.

Originally appeared in Monster Manual II (1983).  These are the Monstrous Manual versions.

Blue bottle fly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Horse-fly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WotC's 3e giant fly:
Dead Life


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm guessing these are both quite a bit larger than the 3.0 giant fly you linked. 

It almost looks to me like they got the HD reversed on the bluebottle vs horsefly there.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2010)

So, which first? Or shall the horsefly be a mod of the bluebottle with attach and blood drain?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm fine with either doing them separately or as an underbar.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2010)

Let's give 'em separate entries, but follow Demiurge's blueprint.


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> I don't think they need the immunities, but I do like them eventually getting Huge.




That's OK. I'd rather not have the immunities than keep them Medium-Large.



Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I believe we're finished.




Yup, it looks fine to me.


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## freyar (Jan 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's give 'em separate entries, but follow Demiurge's blueprint.



Works for me.


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's give 'em separate entries, but follow Demiurge's blueprint.




I'd prefer separate entries too.



freyar said:


> It almost looks to me like they got the HD reversed on the bluebottle vs horsefly there.




The Giant Bluebottle has 3 Hit Dice, the Giant Horsefly 6 HD.

That formatting's a bit hard to read, here are the Monstrous Compendium's stats in a bit clearer condition:

*Fly, Bluebottle* (#AP 1-10 , AC 6, MV 9, fly 30 (D), HD 3, THAC0 19, #Att 1, Dmg/Att 1-8, Morale Unsteady (5-7), XP 65)

*Fly, Horsefly* (#AP 1-4 , AC 5 , MV 6, Fl 27 (D), HD 6, THAC0 17 , #Att 1, Dmg/Att 2-16, Morale Unsteady (5-7), XP 270)

There's a picture in the Monstrous Compendium of what appears to be a Tasloi riding a giant fly, although it may be another goblin-like creature. A tasloi's 2-3 feet tall and the fly's twice as long as it, which suggests (a) that giant fly is 4-6 feet long, and (B) Small creatures can ride them.

I suggest making the Giant Bluebottle Medium Vermin, and the Giant Horsefly Large Vermin.

As for stats, the Tiny WOTC take on the Giant Fly is:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Giant          Fly*
        Tiny Vermin
*Hit Dice:* 1/4 d8 (1)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 15 ft., climb 15 ft., fly 30 ft. (poor)
*AC:* 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Attacks: *Bite +4 melee
*Damage: *Bite 1d3-5
*Face/Reach:* 2 1/2 ft. by 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
*Special Qualities:* Vermin traits
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +0
*Abilities: *Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* Climb +14, Hide +14, Listen +2, Move Silently +5, Spot          +2
*Feats:* Weapon Finesse (bite) (B)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Climate/Terrain:*          Any land and underground
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Organization:*          Solitary or swarm (8-16)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Challenge          Rating:* 1/8
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Treasure:*          None
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Alignment:          *Always neutral[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Scaling that up to Medium & Large would produce the following ability scores:[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Medium Fly*[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Hit Dice:* 1d8+1 (5)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*AC:* 12 (+2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 10[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Abilities: *Str 9, Dex 15, Con 12, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Attacks: *Bite +2 melee (1d6-1)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Large Fly*[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Hit Dice:* 2d8+1 (5)[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*AC:* 12 (+2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 10[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Abilities: *Str 17, Dex 15, Con 16, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Attacks: *Bite +4 melee (1d8+3)[/FONT]

That looks a bit weaker than the AD&D Giant Fly stats should be.

I think we'd be better off basing the Giant Bluebottle on the SRD Giant Bee's stats, and the Giant Horsefly on the Giant Wasp.

So, how about folding together the SRD Giant Bee & Giant Wasp's Speed and natural armour, the 3 and 6 HD of the AD&D flies and the ability scores given above, but with the bite damage skipped up a step? That would give us the following (modified into 3.5 format):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Giant Bluebottle
Medium Vermin
*Hit Dice:* 3d8+3 (16)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft., fly 80 ft. (good)
*AC:* 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
*Attacks: *Bite +4 melee (1d8-1)
*Face/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Special Attacks:* Disease?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Special Qualities:* Vermin traits, plus more?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities: *[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Str 9, Dex 15, Con 12, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] *Skills:* ?
*Feats:* Weapon Finesse (B)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Climate/Terrain:*          Any land and underground
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Organization:*          Solitary or swarm (2-10?)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Challenge          Rating:* ?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Treasure:*          None
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Alignment:          *Always neutral

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Giant Horsefly
*Large Vermin
*Hit Dice:* 6d8+18 (45)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 15 ft., climb 15 ft., fly 60 ft. (good)
*AC:* 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
*Attacks: *Bite +7 melee (2d6+4)
*Face/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Blood drain, disease?
*Special Qualities:* Vermin traits, plus more?
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +2
*Abilities: *[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Str 17, Dex 15, Con 16, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] *Skills:* ?
*Feats:* --
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Climate/Terrain:*          Any land and underground
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Organization:*          Solitary or swarm (2-4?)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Challenge          Rating:* ?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Treasure:*          None
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Alignment:          *Always neutral[/FONT]

I think that's a good start.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2010)

That looks like a good start.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The bite from a larger specimen is extremely painful, especially considering the light, agile, and airborne nature of the fly. Unlike insects which surreptitiously puncture the skin with needle-like organs, horse flies have mandibles like tiny serrated scimitars, which they use to rip and/or slice flesh apart. This causes the blood to seep out as the horsefly licks it up. They may even carve a chunk completely out of the victim, to be digested at leisure.






			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Blood loss is a common problem in some animals, when large flies are abundant. Some animals have been known to lose up to 300 ml of blood in a single day, which can severely weaken or even kill them.




I almost wonder if bleeding wounds makes more sense than blood drain...


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2010)

Bleeding wounds would make sense.


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## Cleon (Jan 12, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> Bleeding wounds would make sense.




Fine by me, how much Con damage per bite would you like. 1d4?


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2010)

I'd prefer bleeding wounds to the 3.5 wounding (in other words, 1 hp/wound per round, rather than Con damage).


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## Cleon (Jan 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd prefer bleeding wounds to the 3.5 wounding (in other words, 1 hp/wound per round, rather than Con damage).




I'm wondering whether we could something closer to the "After biting, the giant horsefly causes an equal amount of damage the next round by drawing blood, unless driven off" the original writeup has.

Some kind of 1-round Attach that does automatic bite damage?

Oh, and the AD&D giant horsefly bite does 2-16 damage, so we might as well up the 3E version's bite to 2d8. They've probably got more powerful mandibles than the Giant Bluebottle, which would do 2d6 as a Large monster.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2010)

Judging by the amount of bleeding a normal sized horsefly can generate, I think a 1 Con point bite, ala 3.5 wounding, is perfectly reasonable for their giant kin.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2010)

Wounding (1 Con damage) makes more sense than bleeding to me.  Having had horsefly bites before, I can say that it's more that they rip a chunk off of you rather than you bleed afterwards.  Not fun.


----------



## Shade (Jan 13, 2010)

Added Giant Bluebottle Fly to Homebrews.
Added Giant Horsefly to Homebrews.

We'll need to figure out the racial skill bonuses for our giant flies.  WotC's giant fly's skills make no sense.  It has greater than the usual +8 to Climb for having a climb speed (+12 assuming it substitutes Dex for Str, +19 otherwise).  It also appears to have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks, and a +4 bonus on Hide checks.  And finally, it has an odd +3 modifier to Move Silently checks.

I'd suggest replacing those modifiers with +8 Climb (as normal for a climb speed) and +4 (or even +8) Move Silently.  I'd note that the horsefly loses the Move Silently bonus when flying (those things are noisy!)   I'm fine with retaining the +2 to Listen and Spot.

I'd recommend we add scent to the SQs.

Perhaps immunity to disease, or at least a high racial bonus on Fort saves vs. disease?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Wounding (1 Con damage) makes more sense than bleeding to me.  Having had horsefly bites before, I can say that it's more that they rip a chunk off of you rather than you bleed afterwards.  Not fun.




So are we back to Con or hit point damage?

I've moving toward simulating the original's "tear off a chunk of its victim the next round" ability. Something like:

*Attach:* If a giant horsefly hits with its bite attack it can latch onto its opponent's body with its powerful jaws. An attached giant horsefly loses its Dexterity bonus to AC so has an AC of X. To remove an attached giant horsefly through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the creature.

*Bloody Bite:* As a full round action, a giant horsefly that is attached to an opponent can rip its jaws out of its opponent's flesh, automatically doing X damage. The fly can then make a standard bite attack against any opponent within its reach in the same round. If it hits with this bite attack it can use its attach special attack again.

Then we just need a value for X. If we follow the original it would do the fly's standard bite damage (2d8+4?), but we could make it Con damage (1d6?) instead.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added Giant Bluebottle Fly to Homebrews.
> Added Giant Horsefly to Homebrews.
> 
> We'll need to figure out the racial skill bonuses for our giant flies.  WotC's giant fly's skills make no sense.  It has greater than the usual +8 to Climb for having a climb speed (+12 assuming it substitutes Dex for Str, +19 otherwise).  It also appears to have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks, and a +4 bonus on Hide checks.  And finally, it has an odd +3 modifier to Move Silently checks.
> ...




I wouldn't give them a Hide or Move Silently bonus. Real-world flies are hardly stealthy. The Climb, Listen and Spot bonuses are good, though.



Shade said:


> I'd recommend we add scent to the SQs.




Good idea, they should be able to sniff out food.



Shade said:


> Perhaps immunity to disease, or at least a high racial bonus on Fort saves vs. disease?




A high racial bonus (+4?) would be OK. Or we could give them a blanket immunity to all diseases with a DC less than X, so only particularly nasty germs affect them.

I'd also fancy giving them Dodge and/or Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats and Evasion as a SQ - flies are very good at leaping aside from attacks!


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2010)

+4 to saves versus disease and evasion both work for me. I don't like cleon's proposed attach/bloody bite mechanics. Considering that flies can land upside down and walk on ceilings, I think we should give them better than a +8 to Climb--maybe even an Ex spider climb ability.


----------



## freyar (Jan 14, 2010)

No idea what we're doing with the bite. 

Also agreed to +4 saves vs disease.  Dodge/Lightning Reflexes and/or evasion are good, too, as is Ex spider climb.


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

Here's the spider-climbish Ex ability we've used in the past, which should work well here...

Wallcrawling (Ex): The gacholoth need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it.


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2010)

That would work, and it seems like we can free up some skill ranks, too.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2010)

Wallcrawling looks perfect.


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

Updated bluebottle fly and horsefly.

Disease for the horsefly or both?  Which sample disease(s)?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> Here's the spider-climbish Ex ability we've used in the past, which should work well here...
> 
> Wallcrawling (Ex): The gacholoth need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it.




That'll do fine, as will the +4 bonus on Fort saves vs disease, and I still fancy Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat.

Shall we get back to arguing about the horsefly's bloody bite?


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

I thought the consensus agreed upon new-style wounding (Con damage).  At least, I'm pretty sure Demiurge and I both agreed on it, and freyar was undecided.


----------



## freyar (Jan 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> I thought the consensus agreed upon new-style wounding (Con damage).  At least, I'm pretty sure Demiurge and I both agreed on it, and freyar was undecided.



I'm really confused now.  I thought that you prefer bleeding (ongoing hp damage) and demiurge likes wounding (Con damage).  I'm open to hp or Con damage, but I don't like ongoing hp damage.  Like I said, I've had horsefly bites (hurt like crazy!), and it's like a chunk of flesh ripped off at once.  It doesn't actually bleed much, like a scrape, just hurts!  So of wounding or bleed, I'd go with wounding.  But I could be swayed to a third option.

On the disease, it seems like only the bluebottle would have it from the original text.  Anyone know if either of these carry disease in the real world?


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2010)

I was convinced of Con damage wounding upthread, and updated Homebrews to reflect that.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm really confused now.  I thought that you prefer bleeding (ongoing hp damage) and demiurge likes wounding (Con damage).  I'm open to hp or Con damage, but I don't like ongoing hp damage.  Like I said, I've had horsefly bites (hurt like crazy!), and it's like a chunk of flesh ripped off at once.  It doesn't actually bleed much, like a scrape, just hurts!  So of wounding or bleed, I'd go with wounding.  But I could be swayed to a third option.




Well I preferred the big chunk o' hit points model I proposed but am OK with Con damage from a wounding SA, so shall we settle on Wounding?



freyar said:


> On the disease, it seems like only the bluebottle would have it from the original text.  Anyone know if either of these carry disease in the real world?




I believe so. Bluebottles are attracted to decaying flesh so are good vectors for spreading around bacteria. The AD&D Giant Horsefly doesn't spread disease though.

So, shall we give the Giant Bluebottle o a filth fever bite like a Dire Rat?

Disease (Ex) 
_Filth Fever_—Fortitude DC 12, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 18, 2010)

Horseflies do indeed carry diseases in the real world. Some nasty ones, like parasitic worms and even anthrax.


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> Horseflies do indeed carry diseases in the real world. Some nasty ones, like parasitic worms and even anthrax.



Yuck.  Insult on top of injury.  Well, I'm ok with giving disease to both if we wish.  Even different diseases for variety.


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## Shade (Jan 19, 2010)

Filth fever for the bluebottle, red ache for the horsefly?  And note in the horsefly's description that it can carry a variety of blood-borne diseases?


----------



## freyar (Jan 19, 2010)

That works for me!


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2010)

Updated bluebottle fly and horsefly.

Bluebottle:
Challenge Rating: x
Advancement: x
A giant bluebottle fly is 4 to 6 feet long and weighs x pounds. 

Horsefly:
Organization: Solitary or swarm (2–4)?
Challenge Rating: x
Advancement: x
A giant horsefly is x to x feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## Cleon (Jan 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated bluebottle fly and horsefly.
> 
> Bluebottle:
> Challenge Rating: x
> ...




Weren't we going to up the giant horsefly's bite attack to 2d8?

Did you not like the idea of giving them Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat?

Anyway, the stats look fine mechanically.

I'd guess the Giant Bluebottle is _probably_ a strong CR 1 and the nastier giant horsefly is a CR 3 or so, based on the Giant Wasp's Challenge Rating.

For the advancement, a Huge Giant Wasp has 9 HD so I think we might use that as a guide and apply triple Hit Dice to get something like:

Giant Bluebottle 4 HD (Medium); 5-9 HD (Large)
Giant Horsefly 7-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge)

For the weight, regular Monstrous vermin aren't usually given weights in the SRD but the Spider eater (10 feet long, 20 foot wingspan, 4000 pounds) is probably a good comparison.

If the Giant Horsefly is about half that length (4-6 feet), leading to a 10 foot wingspan and a 500 pound weight.

A Giant Bluebottle is presumably about half that size - say 3 feet long, 6 foot wingspan, 60 pound weight?


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## Shade (Jan 21, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Weren't we going to up the giant horsefly's bite attack to 2d8?




Sure, will do.



Cleon said:


> Did you not like the idea of giving them Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat?




I fear they're already dangerously close to becoming "uber-vermin", when compared to other flying vermin.   Besides, I've always found them just as easy to hit with bug spray as a bee or wasp.  

The rest sounds good.

Updated bluebottle fly and horsefly.

Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Jan 22, 2010)

They look pretty well done.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2010)

They look good to me!


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## Cleon (Jan 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sure, will do.
> 
> I fear they're already dangerously close to becoming "uber-vermin", when compared to other flying vermin.   Besides, I've always found them just as easy to hit with bug spray as a bee or wasp.
> 
> The rest sounds good.




OK, I can live with that.



Shade said:


> Updated bluebottle fly and horsefly.
> 
> Anything left?




They look finished now, except the bluebottle should have a +2 BAB from its three Vermin Hit Dice (although its Grapple is still +1 due to its -1 Strength penalty).


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2010)

Fixed.

Here's the next one...

*Bumblebee *
#AP 1 
AC 5 
MV 6, Fl 24 (E) 
HD 6+4 
THAC0 13 
# of Att 1 
Dmg/Att 1-6+ poison 
Morale Elite (13-14) 
XP Value 650

Bumblebee poison causes an additional 1d6 points of damage unless a save vs. poison (with a -1 penalty) is made. If encountered at or near the nest, there will be 1d6+6 bumblebees, and a combative queen. The queen has 8d4 HD and a sting that causes 1d8 points of damage. The poison from her sting causes an additional 2-8 points of damage if a save vs. poison at a -2 penalty is failed. Bumblebees do not lose their stingers after use.

Originally appeared in Monster Manual II (1983).  This is the Monstrous Manual version.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2010)

For the queen, just say that they are advanced to a couple extra HD and a higher size?  That should take care of the extra sting damage.  

Speaking of size, the numbers listed make me think Medium with a good Con and not-terrible Str.  Anyone else?


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2010)

Giant bees are 5' long and Medium.  The bumblebees around here are at least 50% larger than honeybees, so I could see them on the high end of Medium or low end of Large.

Also, I forgot to link the Wikipedia entry:
Bumblebee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2010)

Why don't we go with Large and Huge, then?  We can increase the HD of the queens to fit Huge, too.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 26, 2010)

Large sounds fun. More giant, more better. Although they'd need a lot of pollen...


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2010)

That's a good justificaton for giant flora.  

Upsizing a giant bee to Large yields...
Str 19, Dex 12, Con 15, Int —, Wis 12, Cha 9

Compare to giant wasp...
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int —, Wis 13, Cha 11

That seems about right to me.  Bumblebees seem stronger and more durable than wasps, but not as craftily malicious.

What do you think?


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## Cleon (Jan 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed.
> 
> Here's the next one...
> 
> ...




How different are these from the SRD's Bee advanced to Large size?

Oh, I see that's what Shade is thinking of already on the next page.



Shade said:


> That's a good justificaton for giant flora.
> 
> Upsizing a giant bee to Large yields...
> Str 19, Dex 12, Con 15, Int —, Wis 12, Cha 9




That looks a good start.

How shall we match the original's AC5? Bumblebees don't seem that agile but seem pretty robust, so giving them a +5 natural armour (one more than an SRD Giant Wasp or Large Bee would seem more reasonable than upping the Dex.

As for the poison, apart from having a reusable stinger I would prefer to keep the damage to the standard Bee's 1d4/1d4 Con - it may be bigger, but a Bumblebee doesn't have as nasty a sting as a Honeybee. We could give it a +2 racial bonus on the poison DC to represent the -2 save penalty of the original, if we like.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2010)

The increased natural armor and racial bonus to poison appeal.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2010)

Agreed to all this.  Anything else to distinguish it from an advanced bee bee?


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Agreed to all this.  Anything else to distinguish it from an advanced bee bee?




Their flight speed of 24"(E) would appear to be slower and clumsier than a regular SRD Giant Bee. 24 inches equals 60 ft. speed. Aerial Manoeuvrability Class E equals (clumsy), but I would prefer fly (poor) or maybe even (aaverage).

Say Fly 60 ft. (poor) for the sake of argument?

Real-world bumblebees still seem able to hover though, so we could give them Hover as a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Good call on Hover!

Organization: Solitary or x
Giant bees have Solitary, buzz (2–5), or hive (11–20)

Challenge Rating: 3?

Advancement: 7-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge)?

A giant bumblebee is 7 to 10 feet long with a x-foot wingspan and weighs around x pounds.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2010)

It looks pretty good, not sure what else I'd do with it.  Those numbers seem fine.  I'm not sure bee wings are worth quoting a wingspan, though.  Weight -- would a couple hundred lb seem right?


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Good call on Hover!




Thanks!

The stats look fine, except its sting damage is wrong - I reckon it should be 1d6+6 once you apply its Large size and Strength 18.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or x
> Giant bees have Solitary, buzz (2–5), or hive (11–20)




The original was only Solitary but some real-world bumblebees live in small communal nests, so how about Organisation: Solitary or nest (2-7).



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 3?




CR 3 is good.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 7-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge)?




Hmm, a regular Giant Bee is 3-6 HD at Medium, suggesting a Large Bee would range between 7-12 HD and a Huge one 13-24 HD.

I'd prefer Advancement: 7-12 HD (Large); 13-18 HD (Huge)



Shade said:


> A giant bumblebee is 7 to 10 feet long with a x-foot wingspan and weighs around x pounds.




The body length looks fine, but I don't think we need the wingspan or weight. The regular Giant Bee doesn't list a wingspan and Vermin are often not given weights.


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## Shade (Feb 1, 2010)

Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 1, 2010)

It looks that way to me.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2010)

*Beetle, Giant, Stink*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate forest
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Carnivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0) 
TREASURE: Nil 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 3+1
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Stink
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (3’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11-12) 
XP VALUE: 120

The stink beetle is a dead ringer for the slicer beetle in appearance and behavior.  However, its exoskeleton is not as hard, and it has no deadly special attack.  When slain, the stink beetle discharges a noxious fluid from between its mandibles, soaking anything in front of it within 10 feet.  The stench is awful, but harmless, though It doubles the chance of attracting other predators until it wears off—about 8 hours.  This time can be reduced to as little as 1 hour if vigorous cleansing activity or cleansing magic of up to 3rd level is employed.  For example, a wizard using cantrip for a full hour could completely scrub the stench from an affected comrade.

Originally appered in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three (1996).


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## freyar (Feb 2, 2010)

Giant bombadier beetle, but add one HD and replace the acid spray with a cone-shaped death throes?  Not quite sure how to adjudicate that effect, though.


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## Cleon (Feb 2, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> It looks that way to me.




I agree, it looks fine.


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## Cleon (Feb 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> Giant bombadier beetle, but add one HD and replace the acid spray with a cone-shaped death throes?  Not quite sure how to adjudicate that effect, though.




I agree, using the Giant Bombardier Beetle as a template was the first thing that came into my head.

By the way, does anyone know if this is based on a real-world beetle? It could give some useful pointers for a conversion. The Green Carab Beetle (_Calosoma schayeri_) seems a good match as far as its abilities go - it's a slow-moving carnivorous beetle that emits a noxious scent when mishandled - but it says it looks like a Slicer Beetle which, IIRC, is a jet black insect with oversized scimitar jaws, which doesn't match the Carab Beetle's pic at all. [EDIT]Here's wikipedia's entry on the *Green Carab Beetle*. There are a lot of other beetles with noxious secretions. Upon reflection, it's quite likely to be some kind of Tiger Beetles if it has scimitar-like jaws, although those animals tend to be quite fast there are always exceptions.[ENDEDIT]

As for the stink-spray, I'm not sure I like restricting it to a Death-Throes ability. Most insects which excrete repulsive chemicals don't wait until they're dead before using them!

I would rather have it as an ability it can use once/day as a standard action, but it can also use it as a once/day free action when it is brought to negative hit points.

As for the effects, how about one or more of:


Creatures hit by the stink-spray are sickened for X rounds if they have the scent special quality (the stink only sickens creatures with a keen sense of smell).
Creatures hit by the spray have a strong and distinctive scent for (8 hours?) which some predators find attractive.
Any creature trying to track a creature covered by the beetle's stink-spray has a +Y circumstance bonus on their Survival checks to track them, increased to +Z if they are tracking them by by scent.


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## Cleon (Feb 2, 2010)

As for the rest of the stats, there are a fair number of differences between it and a Giant Bombardier Beetle (or "GBB")

The original is 3' long and Small, which doesn't match well with the SRD Vermin. I'd like to make them 6' Medium-sized creatures like a standard GBB.

The original is a lot slower (Move 3" vs the AD&D GBB's 9" => Speed 10 ft. in 3rd edition terms). I would like to either give it the SRD GBB's Speed 30 ft. or average the two to makeSpeed 20 ft. It's a carnivorous beetle, so it needs to be able to keep up with moving food! Presumably it specializes in ating slow creatures like giant insect larvae and baby giant slugs.

The original has a lower AC (AC5 vs the AD&D GBB's AC4 => drop the natural armour a point to *NA +5*?)

 Its bite does 1-6 damage. The AD&D GBB's bite does 2-12 damage, but the SRD version only bites for 1d4. I think I prefer a 1d6 bite.

Do we want to tweak the GBB's stats a bit?

Giant Bombardier Beetle: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 9

I'd like to swap the Strength and Constitution around. The Stink Beetle has a weaker shell, and although it had an extra Hit Dice it has a smaller Hit Dice bonus (2+2 vs 3+1). The higher strength should help make it a more effective carnivore.

Giant Stink Beetle: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 9

Put that all together and we get:

*Stink Beetle, Giant*
Medium Vermin
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. or 30 ft. *?*
Armor Class: 15 (+5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stink *?*
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 0


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2010)

At first, I thought it was one of these:
Pentatomidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Particularly, this one:
Brown marmorated stink bug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which has:



> The stinkbug's ability to emit a vile odor through holes in its abdomen is a defense mechanism meant to prevent it from being eaten by birds and lizards. However, simply jostling the bug, cornering it, scaring or injuring it, or attempting to remove it from one's house can "set it off," and the odor is extremely powerful, unpleasant, and long-lasting. It can make a whole room uninhabitable until aired out, and some people are even allergic to the smell. Squashing it is a surefire way of expelling its noxious odor, and most times the best way of extracting one from the inside of a house is to allow it to walk onto something like a newspaper and then simply take it outside. Another option is to gently collect it using a piece of tissue and flush it. One other method of disposal is killing it with an electric flyswatter. This kills them almost instantly without squashing them.




Granted, it looks nothing like a slicer beetle, but could become the basis of our conversion.


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2010)

Keep Cleon's basic stats (with 20 ft speed)?

Still not sure what to do with the stink.  Sickening is good, but just the tracking and attractiveness to predators don't seem quite enough.  Maybe everyone is sickened, creatures with scent are nauseated?  Sounds like we could justify that from real life.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

freyar said:


> Keep Cleon's basic stats (with 20 ft speed)?
> 
> Still not sure what to do with the stink.  Sickening is good, but just the tracking and attractiveness to predators don't seem quite enough.  Maybe everyone is sickened, creatures with scent are nauseated?  Sounds like we could justify that from real life.




Sickened for regular folk, nauseated for folk with good noses is a good idea. Maybe expand it so creatures with scent are nauseated for a few rounds and then sickened for a long period?

So what duration shall we give it?

A Troglodyte has 10 round stench, a Ghast's lasts 1d6+4 minutes, I'm thinking a Stink Beetle is more like the former.

1d6+4 rounds sickened for normal creatures, 1d6 rounds nauseated plus 2d6 minutes sickened for creatures with scent?


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> At first, I thought it was one of these:
> Pentatomidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Particularly, this one:
> ...




I considered Pentatomidae as a model, but as well as being Bugs and not Beetles they are generally herbivorous and I'd like the insect model we pick to be a carnivore like the AD&D monster.


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Sickened for regular folk, nauseated for folk with good noses is a good idea. Maybe expand it so creatures with scent are nauseated for a few rounds and then sickened for a long period?
> 
> So what duration shall we give it?
> 
> ...



That's reasonable enough.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I assumed "Cha 0" was a typo, since earlier it was mentioned using the GBB's Cha 9.

So, is the stench always active or an area effect?   If the latter, usages per day?


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2010)

Seems to me like the original stench (though a death throes) was a 10 ft cone, so we should stick to that.  I could go anywhere from 3/day to at will.


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## Cleon (Feb 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I assumed "Cha 0" was a typo, since earlier it was mentioned using the GBB's Cha 9.




You'd be correct.



Shade said:


> So, is the stench always active or an area effect?   If the latter, usages per day?




I was going for an X/day area effect, with a bonus immeadiate-action use as a Death Throes if (when) the beetle is killed.



freyar said:


> Seems to me like the original stench (though a death throes) was a 10 ft cone, so we should stick to that. I could go anywhere from 3/day to at will.




A Giant Bombardier Beetle has a 10 ft. cone acid spray, so giving the Giant Stink Beetle a 10 ft/ cone stink spray feels correct.

I'd make it 2/day, for the sake of argument.

Although 3/day's not _that_ bad.


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2010)

How about the following?

Stink Spray (Ex): 3/day, a giant stink beetle can spray a 10 ft cone of odoriferous chemicals.  Any creature caught in the cone must make a DC X Fort save or be sickened for 1d6+4 rounds.  If the victim possesses the Scent special quality, it is instead nauseated for 1d6 rounds and then sickened for 2d6 minutes.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Death Throes (Ex): When a giant stink beetle dies, it releases a stink spray attack instantly, regardless of how many times it has used that special attack that day.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2010)

Those look good.  Updated.

Environment: x

Organization: x

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

A giant stink beetle is about x feet long.


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2010)

temperate forests
Cluster (2–5) or click (6–11)
toughish CR 2
4-6 HD (Medium), 7-9 HD (Large)
6 to 7 ft


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2010)

That all sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about the following?
> 
> Stink Spray (Ex): 3/day, a giant stink beetle can spray a 10 ft cone of odoriferous chemicals.  Any creature caught in the cone must make a DC X Fort save or be sickened for 1d6+4 rounds.  If the victim possesses the Scent special quality, it is instead nauseated for 1d6 rounds and then sickened for 2d6 minutes.  The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> Death Throes (Ex): When a giant stink beetle dies, it releases a stink spray attack instantly, regardless of how many times it has used that special attack that day.




That's pretty much what I was thinking, yes. Although it could be read as if creatures with scent are automatically nauseated. Maybe tweak it as follows:

*Stink Spray (Ex):* 3/day, a giant stink beetle can spray a 10 ft cone of odoriferous chemicals. Any creature caught in the cone must make a DC X Fort save or be sickened for 1d6+4 rounds. If the victim possesses the Scent special quality, it is instead nauseated for 1d6 rounds and then sickened for 2d6 minutes if it fails the Fort save. The save DC is Constitution-based.

I'm also wondering about giving a circumstance bonus to the save DC versus creatures with scent, something like the following, but it may be making it a bit too complicated.

*Stink Spray (Ex):* 3/day, a giant stink beetle can spray a 10 ft cone of odoriferous chemicals. Any creature caught in the cone must make a DC X Fort save or be sickened for 1d6+4 rounds. If the victim possesses the Scent special quality, it is instead nauseated for 1d6 rounds and then sickened for 2d6 minutes if it fails a DC Y Fort save. The save DC is Constitution-based, and includes a +Z circumstance bonus against creatures with the Scent special quality.


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> temperate forests
> Cluster (2–5) or click (6–11)
> toughish CR 2
> 4-6 HD (Medium), 7-9 HD (Large)
> 6 to 7 ft




All that looks fine except I'd suggest temperate or warm forests, since many stinky beetles like in jungles and other tropical places.


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Seems fine.

The only thing I'd be prepared to kick up a fuss about is adding "warm forest" to the Environment.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2010)

I'd be fine with adding "warm" to the environment.

I think increasing both the "damage" and DC against creatures with scent is a little complicated and probably too much extra penalty.  Let's leave the DC the same.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2010)

Updated with "and warm" on the org line.

Next!

*Beetle, Giant, Tiger*
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 3+1 (M)
Move: 150’ (50’)
Attacks: 1 bite
Damage: 2d6
No. Appearing:1d6
Save As: F2
Morale: 9 
Treasure Type: U
Intelligence: 0
Alignment:Neutral
XP Value: 50

Tiger beetles are 4'-long giant beetles with a striped carapace that looks like a tiger's skin. They are carnivores and usually prey on robber flies.
Terrain: Cavern, Plain, Ruins, Woods.

Originally appered in Basic Set (magenta box) (1981).  This is the Rules Cyclopedia version.

Tiger beetle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2010)

Advance a bombadier beetle and drop the acid spray, maybe add a conditional Hide bonus?   The wikipedia article suggests giving them a really high speed (I guess the original stats do, too!).


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Advance a bombadier beetle and drop the acid spray, maybe add a conditional Hide bonus?   The wikipedia article suggests giving them a really high speed (I guess the original stats do, too!).




Yes, real-world tiger beetles can be very fast. I'd suggest speed  40 or 50 ft. plus Run as a bonus feat.

If they're fast, we could give them a higher Dex to help explain why they have an impressive AC for a Medium 3HD beetle.

I'm thinking something like the following, based on the Giant Stink Beetle we just did:

*Tiger Beetle, Giant*
Medium Vermin
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40-50 ft. *?*
Armor Class: 17 (+5 natural, +2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4
Attack: Bite +4 melee (2d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (2d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex *14*, Con 13, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 0
Feats: Run (B)

Many Tiger Beetles also have well-developed eyes, so maybe a racial bonus on Spot checks?


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> *Beetle, Giant, Tiger*
> Move: 150’ (50’)




Does the (50') signify a burrow speed - it does in 1st edition AD&D, but I'm not so sure about the monster notation for the Rules Cyclopedia version of BECMI?

If so, do we want to add a 10 or 20 ft. burrow speed (earth only). It's not unheard of for Tiger Beetles to be burrowers.

If that's the case, I'd rather have the standard version non-burrowing like most tiger beetles, and maybe add a slower, burrowing sub-variety without a Spot bonus (since the species that burrow generally lack the big eyes characteristic of the family).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2010)

Should we give them sprint, and/or an ability to make turns when charging?


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2010)

Adding a burrow speed one way or the other sounds good.

I also like the ability to turn when charging.  Not sure about sprint, since they're so fast already, but it could work!


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## Cleon (Feb 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Adding a burrow speed one way or the other sounds good.




That's okay by me, but I wouldn't want it to be that good.

10 ft. burrow through soft earth only?



freyar said:


> I also like the ability to turn when charging.  Not sure about sprint, since they're so fast already, but it could work!




I don't mind either, maybe something like:

*Agile Runner (Ex):* A giant tiger beetle does not have to run in a straight line like most creatures. It can make one or two turns of up to 90 degrees each while taking a Run or Charge action.


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2010)

Put a space between 90 and degrees, and I think it might be done!


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2010)

As you wish!  Updated.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> As you wish!  Updated.




I'm wondering whether we shouldn't have gone for speed 40 ft. (400 ft. with a sprint), since the original had a 150' speed which is only 25% higher than a standard unencumbered human in that edition of D&D (unless my memory deceives me).

Still it's fine as it is, so I'll leave it to you whether to keep the speed or lower it.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2010)

I think it's OK to keep it at 50 ft., base on this:



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> For its size it has been suggested that they are technically the fastest running land animals.




Since cheetahs hold that title, and are 50 ft. speed, I think it's fair to assume that a giant-sized tiger beetle could run as swiftly.


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## Rappy (Feb 20, 2010)

I agree with Shade. Tiger beetles move fast and bite hard, so they deserve to have their speed nudged a little bit in their favor.


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## Cleon (Feb 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think it's OK to keep it at 50 ft., base on this:




 I'm happy to keep them at Cheetah-speed, since most tiger beetles are very fast, but I'd rather drop the burrow speed in that case. If I recall correctly, those beetles that live underground or in leaf-litter are nowhere near as fast as the speedy surface species. The high-speed species also have long legs, which would make burrowing difficult.

How about my suggestion of dropping Burrow from the regular version and adding a Burrowing Tiger Beetle subentry with speeds that are a closer match to the original's?

 *Giant Tiger Beetle* (standard version)
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Special Qualities:* Agile runner, darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
*Environment:* Temperate and warm  deserts and forests*Burrowing Giant Tiger Beetle* - Some tiger beetles live underground or in thick humus, they are also found in fungus caves and similar places. Their attributes have the following changes from standard giant tiger beetles:

*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), burrow 20 ft.
*Special Qualities:* Agile runner, darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
*Environment:* Temperate and warm  forests or underground

Burrowing giant tigers beetles lack the sprint special quality of their surface relatives.​


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## freyar (Feb 22, 2010)

Having a variant is fine with me.


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## Rappy (Feb 22, 2010)

The variant sounds fine to me as well.


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## Shade (Feb 22, 2010)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Here's the next one (or two):

*Diving Beetle, Giant*
_Larva _
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:  Freshwater ponds and lakes
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 6, Swim6
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS Acid
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (4’ long)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP. VALUE: 120

_Adult_
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:  Freshwater ponds and lakes
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 6, Swim 15, Fly 9 (C)
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5-6’ long)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP. VALUE: 175

Giant diving beetles have three stages of development: larva, pupa, and adult. Giant diving beetle larvae look little like beetles. The body is long and thin with enormous mandibles. Coloration is always light: they are translucent when they hatch and gradually become light yellow or orange. Pupae are white and fat but rarely seen; hence, no statistics are provided. The adult form looks much like a standard beetle, with a hard greenish-black outer shell that looks green underwater. Their hind legs are very long and thick, with paddle-like extremities.

Combat: Giant diving beetle larvae are often called “water tigers” both for their coloration and their ferocity. They remain motionless against a clump of reeds or other plant stalks, then pounce upon any prey that comes near. Their mandibles inflict 1-8 hp damage and inject an acidic substance that liquifies the prey’s body. Victims of a giant diving beetle larva’s bite must save vs. poison or suffer an additional 1-6 hp damage. Once a larva has a victim in its mandibles, it hangs on until the prey dies or makes a successful bend bars roll. Each round in the mandibles, the victim suffers both bite and poison damage. 

Adult giant diving beetles, on the other hand, are scavengers. If attacked, they bite with their mandibles, but these are much smaller than those of the larval form and cause only 1-4 hp damage. Adults have no acidic poison attack.

Habitat/Society: Giant diving beetles are solitary creatures, coming together only to mate. Mating occurs in water during the springtime. The male beetle has suction disks on his front legs to keep him attached to the female’s slippery shell. The female lays the eggs near water plants. (Some bite small holes in plant stems and deposit the eggs there.) After three weeks, the eggs hatch into larvae. 

In its larval stage, the giant diving beetle is ferocious. Larvae devour up to 30 victims a day-usually snails, small fish, and worms. Over the next several months, they molt three or four times. This is always done in shallow water, where access to air is easy. (Both larvae and adults breath by trapping air in their bodies, and in each case they need only stick the hindmost tip of their abdomens above the surface of the water to replenish their air supply.)

In late summer or early fall, the larva digs a burrow for itself underwater, fills it with air bubbles it brings from the surface, and seals itself in. Safe in its earth-cocoon, it pupates-growing into a fat, white, grub-like creature with legs. The pupa is an intermediate form, for soon after it metamorphosizes again, this time into its adult form. At that point it leaves its burrow and rejoins the aquatic environment.

The adult form is sleek and smooth, allowing the creature to glide effortlessly through the water. Its oversized rear legs have paddle-like ends, and it darts through the water quickly by “rowing” its rear legs simultaneously. 

Giant diving beetles, as adults, have fully-functioning wings, protected by the hard wing-cases that form its shell. With these, the creature can fly from pond to pond or lake to lake, searching for new food sources or spawning grounds.

Ecology: Adult giant diving beetles are scavengers, attracted to dead and decaying flesh. Although they are solitary, several beetles might join to share in a large food source. The shells of giant diving beetles, when ground into a fine powder, are often used in the magical inks used to transcribe the spells water breathing and airy water. Venom glands from the larval form can be used as an alternate material component for Melf’s acid arrow spells, although the acid produced by the spell never lasts for more than two rounds in such instances.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #250 (1998).


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## Cleon (Feb 24, 2010)

Shall we do the larva first?

The giant bombardier beetle (GBB) looks to be a good place to start statwise.

Larvae - HD2 Medium Vermin (Aquatic) with NA +5; Attacks with 1d8 + 1d6 acid bite; Speed 20 ft., Swim 20 ft.; SA: acid, improved grab; SQ: jet [_like a Squid, but slower, say 120 ft.? Not mentioned in Dragon #250, but real "water tigers" can escape by water jet._]; Environment: Temperate or warm freshwater; 

The other stats can match a GBB, except maybe Organization.


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## Echohawk (Feb 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I believe we're finished.




A minor correction to the CC entry for the pack spider -- the creature on which this is based (the giant hunting spider) wasn't originally found in Dragon Magazine #67, but first appeared in _Maze of the Riddling Minotaur_ (M2) (and then in _Quagmire!_ (X6), _Creature Catalogue_ (AC9), _King's Festival_ (B11) and _Creature Catalog_ (DMR2)).


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks!  I'll make a note to fix that with the next update.


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2010)

I think we should drop the acid spray from the GBB, but otherwise Cleon's probably right about the larva.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2010)

Echohawk said:


> A minor correction to the CC entry for the pack spider -- the creature on which this is based (the giant hunting spider) wasn't originally found in Dragon Magazine #67, but first appeared in _Maze of the Riddling Minotaur_ (M2) (and then in _Quagmire!_ (X6), _Creature Catalogue_ (AC9), _King's Festival_ (B11) and _Creature Catalog_ (DMR2)).




Fixed.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed.



Ready to get back to the diving beetle larva?


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2010)

Absolutely!

So take GBB, make adjustments Cleon suggested, and drop acid spray?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2010)

That would probably do it.


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think we should drop the acid spray from the GBB, but otherwise Cleon's probably right about the larva.




The acid I was referring to was not the GBB's acid spray, but that injected by the larvae's bite:



> Their mandibles inflict 1-8 hp damage and inject an acidic substance that liquifies the prey’s body. Victims of a giant diving beetle larva’s bite must save vs. poison or suffer an additional 1-6 hp damage.



Making the suggested adjustments to the GBB we've currently got:

*Diving Beetle Larva, Giant*
Medium Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d8+1 plus 1d6 acid)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d8+1 plus 1d6 acid)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Acid, improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., jet, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +0
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 9
Skills: — [racial bonus on Hide?]
Feats: —
Environment: Temperate or warm freshwater
Organization: Solitary or cluster () ?
Challenge Rating: 1 ?
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium); 5–6 HD (Large)

I dropped the Challenge Rating from the GBB's CR2, since the larvae aren't that nasty.

It's a lurk-and-ambush hunter, so could do with a racial bonus on Hide so its prey don't spot it before wandering close enough for it to attack them.

The acid is a cocktail of digestive enzymes, so we should probably specify it only harms organic creatures.

Upon reflection, the jet could be faster than 120 ft. 120 ft. is the equivalent of a Run action by a creature with a 30 ft. swim speed,  it may be too slow for it to effectively flee from predators. Shall we go for 150 ft. or 200 ft. instead?


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2010)

Right, I just wanted to make sure we dropped the spray.  This looks pretty good, and I agree with CR 1, though the AC is maybe a touch high.  Slightly higher jet speed is fine.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2010)

cluster (2-12)?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2010)

Sounds good.

I noticed upthread you expressed concern over the AC.  It is a tad high.  Shave a few points off natural armor (say, to +2 or +3)?  It would make sense, since it is grublike, rather than possessing a beetle's exoskeleton.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2010)

That seems reasonable.  As long as Cleon doesn't object, let's drop the natural armor to +3.  On the other hand, I just noticed that a lot of vermin have sort of inflated AC for their CR, so I guess +5 isn't so bad either.


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## Cleon (Mar 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> I noticed upthread you expressed concern over the AC.  It is a tad high.  Shave a few points off natural armor (say, to +2 or +3)?  It would make sense, since it is grublike, rather than possessing a beetle's exoskeleton.




The larvae do have an fairly tough exoskeleton, although it's nothing like as hard as a beetle's wing-cases they're not soft bodied like a maggot or caterpillar. I wouldn't object to dropping their NA to +4 like a Medium Scorpion and would go along with +3 if needed.

It mostly depends on what NA we want the adult to have - if we go for +8 like the original's AC2 suggests then I'd keep the larva NA +5. (Incidentally, the Giant Stag Beetle is Large and NA +10, so if we downsized one to Medium it would be NA +8).

The rest of it looks fine, except I'd add the following to Combat:

*Acid (Ex):* The acid of a diving beetle larva's bite only harms organic materials. It has no effect on metal or stone, but dissolves flesh, leather and wood.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2010)

+4 natural is ok, and the acid write-up is good.  Ready for the adult?


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## Cleon (Mar 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> +4 natural is ok, and the acid write-up is good.  Ready for the adult?




I'd prefer +5 but I'm OK with +4. I'll leave it up to Shade.

Let's get started on the adult then!

I mentioned earlier it has the same NA as a downsized Giant Stag Beetle (hereafter a GSB), so how about using that as a basis - it's about the right size (5-6 feet is half a GSB's 10 foot length and 4HD vs the GSB's 7HD).

Downsizing a GSB to Medium would give it Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13. I don't think it should have a higher Dex and lower Con than the larva (if anything, it should be the other way around), so I'll swap 2 points from one to t'other to make it Str 15, Dex 10, Con 15.

The adult doesn't have gills so should lose the Aquatic subtype, but I would think it should have the Hold Breath SQ since they can stay submerged for a long time. Somewhere between 4 and 8 times Constitution?

We'll also need to plug in in a 1d4 bite and a fly and swim speeds to match the AD&D adult diving beetle (also the same as a Giant Bombardier Beetle).

Altogether that would give something like:

*Adult Diving Beetle, Giant*
Medium Vermin
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 40 ft., fly 20 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 18 (natural +8), touch 10, flat-footed 18
BAB/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d4+2)
Special Attack: None ?
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., hold breath [_*Con*6?*_], vermin traits
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 9

Hmm, matching the fly speed to the original's 9" looks too low to me - diving beetles are fairly good flyers, so I'd up it to 40 ft., or at least 30 ft.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2010)

Looking pretty good to me.  30 ft or 40 ft fly speed is ok too.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2010)

40 feet works for me, and x6 for the hold breath modifier.

The rest looks good.


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## Cleon (Mar 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> 40 feet works for me, and x6 for the hold breath modifier.
> 
> The rest looks good.




Great! That's about it then, apart from some flavour text.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x


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## Cleon (Mar 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Challenge Rating: x
> 
> Advancement: x




They're tough but do lousy damage, so methinks CR2 would be plenty.

As for Advancement, a Giant Bombardier Beetle goes Large at 5 HD, and a Giant Stag Beetle starts out Large at 7 HD. I think I prefer the Stag as the size-step, so how about:

*Advancement:* 5-6 HD (Medium), 7-12 HD (Large)


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## Cleon (Mar 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Challenge Rating: x
> 
> Advancement: x




Hold on a sec, its Swim should be +10, not +11 (8 racial plus 2 Strength)


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2010)

Agreed to CR 2 and that advancement.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Mar 16, 2010)

Looks like it, yeah.


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Yup!


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

*Giant Damselfish*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical and temperate/saltwater oceans
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
ALIGNMENT Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: SW 18 (lunge 30)
HIT DICE: 2+4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1-4/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Stunning ram
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (7½’)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 120

This fish has a bony head and a slim, dull, dun-colored body. A specially modified dorsal fin trails a streamer that vaguely resembles a humanlike female. The streamer can be folded down tightly against the body, leaving a ridge that the fish uses in swimming.

Nocturnal by nature, this fish rises to the surface at night to hunt. It deploys its dorsal fin and floats with its head down and tail relaxed. Upon hearing the approach of potential prey along a shore or in a boat, it wiggles its body and flutters its dorsal fin in such a way as to mislead a viewer into thinking that a woman, either human or elf, is drowning. (The DM should secretly roll intelligence checks on 1d20 for the characters if anybody becomes suspicious. Any character who fails his check is deceived by the ploy.)

Once a victim swims within 10-15’, the giant damselfish lets its .lady. sink convulsively into the water. It then folds back the dorsal fin and lunges at its victim with its head. If the ram is successful, 1-4 hp damage are done to the victim. The fish then makes a second attack roll (at +2 to hit) in the same round to do 1-4 hp biting damage. It will subsequently circle and ram whenever it sees a chance. Should the fish miss its lunge, it cannot bite. A natural roll of 20 on a ram indicates the victim is stunned for 1-3 rounds, during which time the fish will automatically hit with its ram-and-bite routine twice per round (for a total of 4-16 hp damage per round, with no further chance of stunning until the victim recovers).

These fish can be found in any warm, shallow ocean. They are fiercely territorial, each staking out an area of one square mile near a shipping lane and staying with it until prey no longer passes by. They come together only to mate; the male then leaves while the female carries the fertilized eggs in her body until they hatch. She then gives birth to up to 25 young that swim rapidly away to avoid being eaten by their parent. Young giant damselfish seem to gain their taste for human and demihuman flesh at adulthood, which is when the .damsel. fin is fully developed and the .fishing. instinct appears. (Sages speculate that an Arch-Mage or higher power was involved in their creation.) Adult giant damselfish are also highly aggressive and try to eat any creature that comes near them. While this ploy usually ensures a hearty meal of other fish, it’s usually a disaster if the other creature is a shark.

Damselfish do not collect treasure, though an occasional valuable item may be found in the stomach of a dead fish. Nor are these fish edible, being exceedingly tough and possessing a very strong taste. The one reason they are occasionally sought after is for their dorsal streamers, which can be used as a component in certain illusion/phantasm spells (any that use the fleece needed by a phantasmal force spell).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #165 (1991).


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

Ability scores of other fish:

Barracuda (M): Str 11, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Swordfish (M):  Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2 
Catfish, Giant (L): Str 17, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Fish, Giant Angler (L): Str 20, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 2


----------



## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Ability scores of other fish:
> 
> Barracuda (M): Str 11, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
> Swordfish (M):  Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
> ...




I'd go for the Giant Catfish's Str. While its modus operandi may be very similar to the Giant Angler, I'm thinking it isn't spectacularly strong given its 1d4 attacks. The 2+4 suggests a good Constitution though, so how about the Angler for the other stats:

Damselfish, Giant (L): Str 17, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2


----------



## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.



> Nocturnal by nature, this fish rises to the surface at night to hunt. It deploys its dorsal fin and floats with its head down and tail relaxed. Upon hearing the approach of potential prey along a shore or in a boat, it wiggles its body and flutters its dorsal fin in such a way as to mislead a viewer into thinking that a woman, either human or elf, is drowning. (The DM should secretly roll intelligence checks on 1d20 for the characters if anybody becomes suspicious. Any character who fails his check is deceived by the ploy.)




It sounds like it has a decent Listen skill.  How shall we handle the camouflauge/mimicry?



> Once a victim swims within 10-15’, the giant damselfish lets its .lady. sink convulsively into the water. It then folds back the dorsal fin and lunges at its victim with its head. If the ram is successful, 1-4 hp damage are done to the victim. The fish then makes a second attack roll (at +2 to hit) in the same round to do 1-4 hp biting damage. It will subsequently circle and ram whenever it sees a chance. Should the fish miss its lunge, it cannot bite. A natural roll of 20 on a ram indicates the victim is stunned for 1-3 rounds, during which time the fish will automatically hit with its ram-and-bite routine twice per round (for a total of 4-16 hp damage per round, with no further chance of stunning until the victim recovers).




Hmm...the ram n' bite mechanic feels a bit like the auto-bite often associated with improved grab with another extremity.  However, it isn't really "grabbing" in this case.

FWIW, the Power Lunge feat offers the following benefit:
A successful attack roll during a charge allows you to inflict double your normal Strength modifier in addition to the attack's damage regardless of whether you’re using one- or two-handed weapons. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you charged.


----------



## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> It sounds like it has a decent Listen skill.  How shall we handle the camouflauge/mimicry?




Yes it does. We'd better give it a sizable racial bonus to the skill.

As for the "lady", I'm thinking it works like a combination of Disguise and Bluff except the fish has a flat or HD-based DC instead of actual skill ranks. 



Shade said:


> Hmm...the ram n' bite mechanic feels a bit like the auto-bite often associated with improved grab with another extremity.  However, it isn't really "grabbing" in this case.
> 
> FWIW, the Power Lunge feat offers the following benefit:
> A successful attack roll during a charge allows you to inflict double your normal Strength modifier in addition to the attack's damage regardless of whether you’re using one- or two-handed weapons. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you charged.




You know, we could a similar effect mechanically if it always gets a critical with its ram attack. The second attack roll would then just be the critical confirmation check.


----------



## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Yes it does. We'd better give it a sizable racial bonus to the skill.




+8?



Cleon said:


> As for the "lady", I'm thinking it works like a combination of Disguise and Bluff except the fish has a flat or HD-based DC instead of actual skill ranks.




My only concern is that Disguise is usually employed by more intelligent creatures, although a flat DC isn't really any different that camouflage, since both are opposed by Spot.



Cleon said:


> You know, we could a similar effect mechanically if it always gets a critical with its ram attack. The second attack roll would then just be the critical confirmation check.




That seems a bit too much of a stretch.  Besides the difference of bludgeoning vs. piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage between the two, it could lead to some horrible rules violations when templates, etc. are applied to the creature.  Anything that grants a benefit based on a critical hit would increase in frequency could easilby be abused.

I'm thinking something along the lines of ...

Bash n' Bite (Ex):  If a giant damselfish hits with its slam attack, it may make a bite attack as a swift action.  This bite attack is made with a +2 circumstance bonus.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> That seems a bit too much of a stretch.  Besides the difference of bludgeoning vs. piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage between the two, it could lead to some horrible rules violations when templates, etc. are applied to the creature.  Anything that grants a benefit based on a critical hit would increase in frequency could easilby be abused.




Dang it, I was hoping to slip my idea for the Auto-Vorpal Damselfish past you.



Shade said:


> I'm thinking something along the lines of ...
> 
> Bash n' Bite (Ex):  If a giant damselfish hits with its slam attack, it may make a bite attack as a swift action.  This bite attack is made with a +2 circumstance bonus.




Yes, that was going to be my next choice.

What about the stun effect? something like:

*Stunning Charge (Ex):* If a giant damselfish scores a critical hit with its slam attack as part of a charge it stuns its target for 1d3 rounds, if the target succeeds at a DC 14 Fortitude save it is only dazed for 1 round instead. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## freyar (May 20, 2010)

Bash 'n' Bite is pretty fun.  Maybe it should only work on a charge, though?  Well, I guess there's no harm in making it more general.

Stunning charge is good, but I think 1d3 rounds stunning is a bit much at 2HD.  How about 1 round?


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Agreed on 1 round, and I'd be OK with limiting bash n' bite to a charge. 

Your thoughts, Cleon?


----------



## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed on 1 round, and I'd be OK with limiting bash n' bite to a charge.
> 
> Your thoughts, Cleon?




It depends how close we want to keep to the original, which stunned for 1-3 rounds and then auto-hit with two ram & bites every round.

That's nasty, so I think the 3E should be similarly nasty. We could make it dazed 1-3 rounds instead (on a failed save), if you want to soften the impact of the charge, but in that case we should change its name from "_Stunning_ Charge".

As for the ram & bite, I think I'd allow it on a standard attack.

Then it can ram & bite every round a victim is dazed, but can not use StunningDazing Charge again without spending a round to move away, then charging the next round. That could represent how the original Giant Damselfish could not stun a victim again while giving them its patented double-fast smackdown.


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## Shade (May 21, 2010)

So...

Bash n' Bite (Ex): If a giant damselfish hits with its slam attack, it may make a bite attack as a swift action. This bite attack is made with a +2 circumstance bonus.

Dazing Charge (Ex): If a giant damselfish scores a critical hit with its slam attack as part of a charge it dazes its target for 1d3 rounds.  If the target succeeds on a DC 14 Fortitude save, it is only dazed for 1 round. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## freyar (May 21, 2010)

Seems fine to me!  Anything else unusual for this one?


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## Shade (May 21, 2010)

We still need to resolve this matter...



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> As for the "lady", I'm thinking it works like a combination of Disguise and Bluff except the fish has a flat or HD-based DC instead of actual skill ranks.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> My only concern is that Disguise is usually employed by more intelligent creatures, although a flat DC isn't really any different that camouflage, since both are opposed by Spot.


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## Cleon (May 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> So...
> 
> Bash n' Bite (Ex): If a giant damselfish hits with its slam attack, it may make a bite attack as a swift action. This bite attack is made with a +2 circumstance bonus.
> 
> Dazing Charge (Ex): If a giant damselfish scores a critical hit with its slam attack as part of a charge it dazes its target for 1d3 rounds.  If the target succeeds on a DC 14 Fortitude save, it is only dazed for 1 round. The save DC is Strength-based.




Looks good to me!

Still not that fond of "Dazing Charge", but I couldn't come up with anything better. "Staggering Charge" would have the same problem as "Stunning", since it's also a condition in 3E.

Can you think of any nicer-sounding alternatives to "Dazing"?

Traumatizing Charge? Shocking Charge?

Of those, methinks "Traumatizing" is the better synonym.


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## freyar (May 24, 2010)

Traumatizing is better, since shocking indicates electricity. 

I wouldn't make it Disguise, for a similar reason as Shade.  Make it a flat DC like camo.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> I wouldn't make it Disguise, for a similar reason as Shade.  Make it a flat DC like camo.




I don't think anybody's arguing for giving it Disguise, we all seem to want a flat DC. Shall we rough out a description...

*Damsel Lure (Ex):* A giant damselfish can flutter its body and dorsal fin so it appears to be a drowning woman, either human or elf, to viewers on or above the water's surface. Viewers can attempt a DC 20 Spot or Sense Motive check to notice this "lady" is an imitation.


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## freyar (May 25, 2010)

I guess I don't see that Sense Motive is going to help unless the viewer can already Spot a problem.  I think I'd prefer to keep just to Spot.  I'd be willing to say that viewers within a short range automatically see the trap (though make it too late, say 10 ft).


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## Shade (May 25, 2010)

Agreed to "traumatizing", dropping Sense Motive, and allowing auto success when close enough.


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

Traumatizing Charge it is.

Following Shade's vote:
Damsel Lure (Ex): A giant damselfish can flutter its body and dorsal fin so it appears to be a drowning woman, either human or elf, to viewers on or above the water's surface. Viewers can attempt a DC 20 Spot check to notice this "lady" is an imitation; these checks succeed automatically once the viewer is within 10 ft (though usually the damselfish attacks by that point).


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Updated.

Feats: 1

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: 3-6 HD (Large)?

A giant damselfish averages 7-1/2 feet in length and weighs about x pounds.


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## Cleon (May 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Traumatizing Charge it is.
> 
> Following Shade's vote:
> Damsel Lure (Ex): A giant damselfish can flutter its body and dorsal fin so it appears to be a drowning woman, either human or elf, to viewers on or above the water's surface. Viewers can attempt a DC 20 Spot check to notice this "lady" is an imitation; these checks succeed automatically once the viewer is within 10 ft (though usually the damselfish attacks by that point).




That'd do, although I do admit to a fondness for the "Of course, by this time it is generally far too late." that ends the Mimic's mimic shape SQ, suggesting:

*Damsel Lure (Ex):* A giant damselfish can flutter its body and dorsal fin  so it appears to be a drowning woman, either human or elf, to viewers  on or above the water's surface. Viewers can attempt a DC 20 Spot check  to notice this "lady" is an imitation. The Spot check will succeed  automatically if the viewer is within 10 ft. Of course, by this time it is generally far too close to avoid the damselfish's attack.


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## Cleon (May 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Feats: 1




I'm thinking just Alertness for the feat, since Manta Rays and Sharks  have it and I didn't really fancy most of the combat feats I could come  up with - Ability Focus (Traumatizing Charge), for example, would be a  bit too effective.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x
> 
> Advancement: 3-6 HD (Large)?
> 
> A giant damselfish averages 7-1/2 feet in length and weighs about x pounds.




CR1.

I'd rather it Advances to Large, maybe 3-4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large)

Weight would be a few hundred pounds for a fish that size.

300 pounds?


----------



## freyar (May 26, 2010)

The "Of course" line is perfect; I aimed for that and missed. 

Alertness, CR 1, and Cleon's weight are good.

Cleon, we already have the 2HD base creature at Large.  Let's stick to that and Shade's advancement.  Besides, it should be pretty big to have a Medium-sized lure.


----------



## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Updated.

What's left?


----------



## freyar (May 26, 2010)

Looks about finished, but maybe Cleon will find a typo or something.


----------



## Shade (May 27, 2010)

I'm taking the day off tomorrow, so here's Nemo to keep you busy. 

*Clownfish, Giant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical, subtropical, and temperate oceans
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: School
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: Swim 9
HIT DICE: 1+2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to paralysis
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (3’ long)
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7)
XP VALUE: 65

Larger versions of the tiny tropical clownfish, or clown anemonefish, the giant clownfish is brightly colored, its body a brilliant orange vertically striped with wide bands of white. Each white band is bordered on both sides with a narrow black band, and the tail and fins are each black at the tips. Like their smaller cousins, they are immune to the stings of the sea anemone and spend much of their time safely within the waving tentacles of such creatures. Giant clownfish are often called “bogeyfish” or “bogeys”.

Combat: Giant clownfish are harmless to man-sized creatures, as they have no teeth and can swallow only creatures smaller than their own mouths. In extreme situations they can ”head butt” creatures that get too close, but this maneuver causes no damage, merely passes on the information “you.re not welcome here”. However, giant clownfish are associated with several much more formidable sea creatures. 

In the wild, giant clownfish are most often encountered within the vicinity of a giant sea anemone (details on these creatures are found in MONSTROUS COMPENDIUM Volume 4: DRAGONLANCE® Appendix under “Anemone, Giant”). Clownfish exude a slimy coating that protects them from the anemone’s paralytic stings, so they are safe from most creatures while nestled within the anemone’s tentacles. If egg-eating fish or small marine creatures move too close to a clownfish’s nest, it can scare off the intruders by making loud clicking sounds.

In addition, many giant clownfish are raised by sea sprites, who like them for their vivid coloration and often use the clownfish as riding mounts. The clownfish do not mind such servitude, as they are then protected not only by the sea sprites but also by the barracudas that many sea sprites use as guards and pets. Barracudas in service to a sea sprite community do not attack giant clownfish also in service.

Habitat/Society: Because they like staying close to the giant sea anemones, giant clownfish are often found living together in small schools. Clownfish are frequently preyed upon by sharks, rays, and large fish as well as ixitxachitl, sahuagin, and crabmen.

In addition, the giant sea anemone serves as a food source for the clownfish, who often eat the tiny sea creatures that occasionally are caught in the anemone.s tentacles. They also eat algae that forms on sea coral.

The female lays hundreds of reddish-orange eggs at a time, usually along the sea floor next to a giant sea anemone. The male, smaller than the female, follows in his mate.s wake and fertilizes the eggs immediately after they’re laid. It is the male’s job to guard the eggs during the two weeks or so that it takes for them to hatch. Newly-hatched clownfish are translucent and immediately go off on their own to feed. They gradually take on the standard coloration and find homes for themselves among giant sea anemones.

Ecology: Giant clownfish make their homes in shallow, tropical waters. They are seldom encountered far from giant sea anemones or sea sprites, preferring the safety afforded them by either of these creatures. Sea sprites can swim much faster than clownfish but still enjoy using them for riding mounts when they aren’t in any particular hurry. Many giant clownfish spend their entire lives in sea sprite communities, even when not being used as a means of transport -the clownfish are safer there, and the sprites enjoy the sight of their brightly-colored “bogeys” swimming around back and forth.

The giant clownfish’s immunity to sea anemone stings carries on to other forms of paralysis. For this reason, giant clownfish blood is often used in the inks by which scrolls of protection from paralysis are made.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #250 (1998).


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## freyar (May 28, 2010)

Boy, there's not a whole lot inspiring mechanically here.  Immunity to paralysis or poison, I guess, and possibly a fear effect from the "clicking."  Lots of good flavor, though.


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## Cleon (May 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> The "Of course" line is perfect; I aimed for that and missed.
> 
> Alertness, CR 1, and Cleon's weight are good.
> 
> Cleon, we already have the 2HD base creature at Large.  Let's stick to that and Shade's advancement.  Besides, it should be pretty big to have a Medium-sized lure.




Oh, sorry, in that case I'd suggest increasing the weight to 500 pounds so they're within the standard weight range for a Large creature.


----------



## Cleon (May 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks about finished, but maybe Cleon will find a typo or something.




No typos, but its Grapple and attack line don't include the adjustments for being Large, and its Full attack has two primary attacks separated by an "and" without explanation.

BAB/Grapple: +1/+8 [Grapple - +1 BAB +3 Str +4 size = +8]
Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4+3) or bite +3 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4+3) and bite -2 melee (1d4+1)

I'd also suggest listing the attack and damage of its swift-attack bite when making its Bash 'n Bite attack. e.g.:

*Bash n' Bite (Ex):* If a giant damselfish hits with its slam attack, it  may make a bite attack as a swift action. This bite attack is made with a  +2 circumstance bonus (+5 melee and 1d4+3 damage for a typical giant damselfish).

Partly it's to makes things clearer, and partly to save the DM the time they'd need to figure it out.


----------



## Cleon (May 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> Boy, there's not a whole lot inspiring mechanically here.  Immunity to paralysis or poison, I guess, and possibly a fear effect from the "clicking."  Lots of good flavor, though.




Yes, they're not the most fearsome creature we've ever converted, are they?

Give them a slam attack for their "head butt" or just an unarmed strike for nonlethal damage?

The 1+2 Hit Dice suggests they're pretty tough for their size - toughness, a high Constitution or both?


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## freyar (May 31, 2010)

Sounds like unarmed strike for the head butt.  High Con, maybe Endurance over Toughness.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sounds like unarmed strike for the head butt.  High Con, maybe Endurance over Toughness.




I'd rather just give them Con 14-15 with neither Endurance or Toughness. They aren't pelagic fish, so don't need the stamina to swim all day, they can rest in the safety of their sea anemone.

What about its immunity to paralysation?

Our conversion of the Giant Sea Anemone has Str- and Dex-attacking poison, so immunity to paralysis would not help the Clownfish, it'd need immunity to poison.

Shall we give it a special immunity that only covers sea anemone venom?


----------



## freyar (May 31, 2010)

I think an immunity to paralysis and poison should cover all the bases.  After all, we need to give these guys something.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think an immunity to paralysis and poison should cover all the bases.  After all, we need to give these guys something.




Agreed.  Even if the real-world version isn't quite so hardy, the "gigantification" evolution could account for it.

I'll make the suggested revisions to the damselfish.  Thanks, Cleon.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Even if the real-world version isn't quite so hardy, the "gigantification" evolution could account for it.
> 
> I'll make the suggested revisions to the damselfish.  Thanks, Cleon.




Don't mention it old bean, only too happy to oblige.


----------



## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

Ok, then.  Giant clownfish it is.  Small animal, and we wanted Con 14 or 15.  Probably lowish Str is ok, with averagish Dex.  Int 1.  Suggesting:

Str 9, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 8?


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

Those appeal.

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2010)

Want to make a fear effect out of this?  It could just be flavor or maybe a bonus to Intimidate checks.



> If egg-eating fish or small marine creatures move too close to a clownfish’s nest, it can scare off the intruders by making loud clicking sounds.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think an immunity to paralysis and poison should  cover all the bases.  After all, we need to give these guys  something.




I have no objection to a flat immunity to paralysis and poison.



freyar said:


> Ok, then.  Giant clownfish it is.  Small animal,  and we wanted Con 14 or 15.  Probably lowish Str is ok, with averagish  Dex.  Int 1.  Suggesting:
> 
> Str 9, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 8?




Looks like a good start. I'd like to have the Dexterity a step higher (Dex 12-13). That'd give it an AC a point higher than a direct conversion, but I'd rather not cut its natural armour.



freyar said:


> Want to make a fear effect out of this?  It could just be flavor or maybe a bonus to Intimidate checks.




Since it only affects "small" creatures (maybe smaller than the clownfish?) I don't think it deserves a SA.

However, I would be game for increasing the Charisma so it doesn't get a penalty on its default Intimidate checks, although I suppose it doesn't deserve a high enough score for a Cha bonus.

Besides, aren't clownfish thought to be cute & charming little creatures? 

So, I'm thinking:

Str 9, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 10


----------



## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

The improved Dex and Cha seem fine to me.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> The improved Dex and Cha seem fine to me.




Skills and feats then?

I'm thinking about being boring and going for Alertness and equal ranks in Spot and Listen, giving them:

Feats: Alertness
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4


----------



## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 1/2?

Advancement: x

A giant clownfish averages 3 feet in length and weighs about x pounds.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: 1/2?
> 
> ...




That CR looks right to me.

Clownfish don't seem to vary much in size, so I'm thinking maybe they don't advance.

Advancement: —

If you don't like that idea we could have them go to Medium.

Advancement: 3-6 (Medium)

Clownfish are fairly stout though, so I'm thinking about 30 pounds for the weight?


----------



## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Should it use Dex to modify Swim, rather than Str?

I'd like to steal a rank for Intimidate for the clucking, if you don't mind.  And mention that they make noises to Intimidate small predators.


----------



## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

The "clucking" bit is in the flavor text already (the egg-laying paragraph), but I'll add the rest.

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Ok, looks good!


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2010)

*Betta, Giant*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1 male, 1-8 females
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVE: //18”
HIT DICE: males 3 + 3, females 3 + 6
% IN LAIR: 55%
TREASURE TYPE: Q in nest
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Bonus "to hit"
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (5’-6’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: III/85 + 4/hp

Giant bettas, also known as giant Siamese fish, are somewhat similar to their smaller cousins. They inhabit fresh, tropical waters that are warm all year around. Giant bettas are encountered in schools which invariably contain one male fish and one or more female followers. Males are brightly colored, coming in red, blue, and green versions; females are always a drab green. Males have longer fins than females.

Male giant bettas are extremely hostile toward other males of their kind. If a male betta sees its own reflection in a mirrorlike surface, it will attack the reflection immediately, to the exclusion of any other enemy. The same applies to illusions the betta sees of other males. (Bettas receive no saving throw against illusions of this sort.) Male betas will attack other brightly colored objects they see in the water, gaining a +2 bonus “to hit” against them; this includes characters wearing flashy clothes, bright silvery armor that will reflect the betta’s coloration, and so forth. This does not apply to female bettas.

Male bettas will create a bubble nest when they desire to breed. A bubble nest is an underwater air pocket at least one cubic foot in volume, set under an overhanging rock, a collection of interlocked branches, or other suitable object. The male betta will inhale a large quantity of air at the surface, swim down to the place where the nest is being built, and exhale, forming the air pocket. Any leakage will be stoppered by scooping mud onto the leaking spot. The male might also collect a few small shiny objects to enhance the nest.s attractiveness (hence the presence of gems).

Upon finding a female, the male will have her lay eggs in the bubble nest and will then chase the female away before she has a chance to eat the eggs. The male will guard the nest for two days, after which time the eggs hatch. After a short period of time, the male betta will eat whatever young remain in the area; the rest must scatter and hide.

Young males soon start attacking each other and separate to go their own ways. Young bettas are born with 1 hp and gain a full hit die every three months. Their bite damage becomes effective against other creatures when they are three months old, doing 1-4 points damage. When they are six months old they do 1-6 hp damage, and finally they reach adulthood (and normal bite damage) at nine months of age. 

Bettas live in shallow waters not over 100’ deep. They have to come to the surface and gulp air to breathe. Though males can be dangerous to underwater adventurers in the tropics, female bettas will attack only if hungry or if attacked themselves.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #94 (1985).


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2010)

First question, I guess: are the males and females distinct enough to warrant separate stats?

EDIT: Here are 2 wikipedia articles
Betta
Siamese Fighting Fish
From these, I gather that these fish can breathe from the atmosphere, but they don't have to (unless they're in poorly oxygenated water).


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Their unarmed strike should be +0 melee (+0 BAB -1 Str +1 size).

Can't spot anything else to delay them swimming away.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> First question, I guess: are the males and females distinct enough to warrant separate stats?




Hmm, the only difference appears to be the females three extra hit points.

Since the males are the aggressive ones, I'm thinking we should stat those up and give them a couple of combat-feats, then add an underbar than females have Toughness instead of one of combat feats?

Alternatively, we could give them slightly different stats - +2 Str for males, +2 Con for females.

Either way, I'd fancy jazzing up the males a little.

How about giving them a rage-like power if they see something that reminds them of another male?


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2010)

I think the underbar for the females would be sufficient, whichever route we take.

A rage power is a good idea, and I think some version of water dependent would work for the air breathing.


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## Cleon (Jun 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think the underbar for the females would be sufficient, whichever route we take.
> 
> A rage power is a good idea, and I think some version of water dependent would work for the air breathing.




Okie-dokie, so something like this:

*Rage (Ex):* A male betta will fly into a fury if it sees another male, gaining +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, and -2 AC. It even rages at the sight of its own reflection, meaning it will berserkly attack creatures wearing highly-polished armour. The fish cannot end  its rage voluntarily, fighting to the death as long as it can see its rival.

and this:

*Water Dependent (Ex):* Betta can breathe air as well as water, so can live in oxygen-less water by gulping down air from the surface. They can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules).


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2010)

Standard and good!


----------



## Cleon (Jun 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> Standard and good!




Right, I'd like to add the "Raging stats" underneath, just to save the DM some time. 'Course we'll have to decide on the regular stats first.

Speaking of which, what stats do you fancy?

Something like Str 13, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 10 (based on a Medium-sized Clownfish) for the abilities?

Medium Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16)
+2 Natural armour
Swim speed 50 ft.?
1d8 damage bite


----------



## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

That all sounds great!


----------



## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

Agreed!


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

Wow! Need anything else in terms of specials?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> Agreed!




Okay then, Power Attack for the male's combat feat?

Alertness for their "regular" feat, with skill points evenly divided between Listen and Spot for a +5 modifier to each?

I'd make the Organisation "Solitary or school (1 male and 1-8 females)".

Challenge Rating 2 I suppose, but it's a weak 2.

A raging Male Betta has the following changes to its stats:

Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp)
Armor Class: 10 (+2 natural, -2 rage penalty), touch 8, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d8+4)
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 10
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +0
Skills: [_Listen +5, Spot +5,_] Swim +11


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2010)

Updated.

Advancement: x

A giant betta averages 5 to 6 feet in length and weighs about x pounds.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Advancement: x
> 
> A giant betta averages 5 to 6 feet in length and weighs about x pounds.




4-5 HD (Medium); 6-9 HD (Large) ?

A giant betta averages 5 to 6 feet in length and weighs about 200 pounds?


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2010)

Looks good.


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good.




I think the "female underbar" needs a little more expansion, just to spell things out a bit more. Perhaps:

*Female Giant Bettas*
Female bettas are a lot less aggressive. They will only attack out of hungry or in self defense. Females do not possess the males Rage special ability and have the Toughness feat instead of Power Attack, giving them the following changes to their attributes:

Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp)
Special Attacks: —
Feats: Alertness, Toughness


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

I can go for that, though we should change "out of hungry" back to "if hungry" or maybe to "out of hunger."


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

Looks pretty good.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good.




They look done to me.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

*Archerfish, Giant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical/large freshwater lakes
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 90%: 1-3 adults; 10%: 5-20 young
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: SW 20
HIT DICE: 3 + 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Water jet, swallows whole
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 420

The giant archerfish is a silvery creature with heavy jaws, giving it a squared-off look when seen head on. This is due to two powerfully muscled water bladders, one on either side of the head. Behind the head, the body narrows quickly to a streamlined shape with a powerful tail. 

The water bladders can generate a water jet once per three rounds, fired from the fish’s mouth, with a range of 30’. Used by a full-grown specimen, the jet can knock a human from the deck of a ship or out of a ship’s rigging. A target is treated as AC 5 regardless of actual armor class, A free-standing victim is knocked backward by the force of the jet; for every 20 lbs. less than 200 lbs. he weighs, he is forced back 1’, and any victim under 200 lbs. must make a dexterity check on 4d6 to remain standing (the point is moot for a victim hurled from a ship). If the victim is grasping a support or is braced, he must make a strength roll on 3d6 to avoid being, knocked back. A saving throw vs. paralysis must be made to continue grasping any hand-held item. An attack roll of 20 indicates that the victim is stunned for 1-3 rounds by the force of the jet. 

Once a victim is in the water, he is subject to a bite attack similar to a shark’s, On a natural roll of 20, the archerfish will swallow whole any victim the size of a halfling or gnome. A swallowed character can cut his way out if he inflicts enough damage to the AC 10 interior of the fish to slay it, but he can do so only if he has a dagger or knife in hand. Meanwhile, the character suffers 1 hp damage per round due to digestive acids, and he has no air to breathe. It should also be noted that, once in the water, a victim loses all armor-class bonuses due to dexterity unless he is wearing a ring of free action or similar magical item, and shields cannot be used. 

These fish seldom come together except to spawn. Eggs are laid on the sea bottom and fertilized there. Those eggs not devoured by other predators hatch in 3-4 weeks. The young remain together in a school, ranging from 5-20 individuals, until they reach the length of about 3’; then they separate. Young archerfish have these statistics: AC 7; MV 18; HD 1+1; THAC0 19; #AT 1; Dmg 1-3; SA none effective; SZ 1-3.; XP 35.

The water jet is usable upon hatching. These fish cruise near the surface and track prey by sight, following long enough to orient on course and speed. Then they break the surface in a jump and squirt their jets to bring down large insects, birds, and small water-dwelling animals. The school of young is cooperative in this hunting style until the individuals reach adulthood, when the victims rarely provide enough food for the entire school (hence the break-up). The water jets of young giant archerfish do not endanger characters, and they cannot swallow characters whole, though they could consume sprites or brownies.

These fish are not territorial and travel to any place they can take down prey. They eat people only if such are available. In a pinch, giant archerfish are known to scavenge the bottoms of their shallow seas or large lakes.

Giant archerfish have no interest in treasure, though an occasional item may be found in the stomach of a slain fish. They themselves are not good to eat, nor do they have any body parts known to have practical use (except as bait to catch other fish). Nor is there any use for them as components for any known spells.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #165 (1991).


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

Well, bite with imp grab and swallow whole.  A water jet might be inspired by a decanter of endless water (we did some other fish that used one function of the decanter, but I don't recall if it had the jet -- a jade fish maybe?).  

Do we want to have an underbar for the young?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Good memory!

Water Stream (Su): A jade fish can continually produce water. It can create up to 1 gallon per round. Alternatively, as a standard action, a jade fish can create a tremendously powerful 5-foot line of water. Any creature in the area of the line takes 1d10 points of damage (Reflex DC 12 negates). A creature failing the saving throw must succeed on a Strength check (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be knocked prone by the force of the blast. For each 5 points by which a target fails the check, it is pushed back 5 feet. The jade fish attempts to knock opponents into pools it creates with its water jet. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

We also use a variation here...

Water Jet (Su): As a standard action, an avenging spirit can create a tremendously powerful 30-foot line of water. Any creature in the area of the line takes 2d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 21 negates). A creature failing the saving throw must succeed on a Strength check or a Balance check (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be knocked prone by the force of the blast. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

The avenging spirit version is just about perfect, except the archer fish (as written) doesn't deal damage.  Want to add some, though?  And switch to Con-based on the DC.

Maybe we should do basics, first.   Animal, 3HD.  Looks like good Con, and Str is probably decent.  Everything else is probably pretty standard for a Large animal.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Damselfish: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Clownfish: Str 9, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 10
Anglerfish: Str 20, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 2

Put it somewhere between Damselfish and Anglerfish, with a slight boost to Con?

Maybe Str 18, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 2?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

Looks fine.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

All ranks in Spot, maybe?  Not sure about the feats just yet.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




The stats look alright but I'd rather the water jet didn't do any damage. The real-life version only jetted to knock prey into the water, so I was thinking some kind of Bullrush like mechanism.

If you insist on it doing damage, could we make it nonlethal?


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm happy to leave off the damage if you want, but a Str or Con based DC for the "bull rush" will be a bit lower than it is now on average.  Add a racial bonus or make the fish do a Str check too?


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm happy to leave off the damage if you want, but a Str or Con based DC for the "bull rush" will be a bit lower than it is now on average.  Add a racial bonus or make the fish do a Str check too?




Strength based, possibly with a size bonus, should be enough. Since it's intended to knock halfling-sized opponents into the water it doesn't need to be that high a modifier.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2010)

If we go Str-based, plus a size modifier, we might as well just state that "make a bull rush attempt as if the archerfish were making the attempt" or similar wording, eh?


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> If we go Str-based, plus a size modifier, we might as well just state that "make a bull rush attempt as if the archerfish were making the attempt" or similar wording, eh?




That's pretty much what I was thinking. Although I'm now wondering whether it shouldn't knock the target prone like an Overrun attack, since it can knock a target prone as well as drive them back.

The original creature appears to only be able to wash away creatures up to 200 pounds, suggesting the attack is limited to Medium sized or smaller target.

Do we want to include the "An attack roll of 20 indicates that the victim is stunned for 1-3 rounds by the force of the jet".

If we put everything in, we'd get something like the following:

*Water Jet (Ex):* A giant archerfish can spit a powerful jet of water as a ranged touch attack with a 30 foot range. This jet can push back or knock over any opponent smaller than the archerfish. Assuming the jet hits, the archerfish and its opponent make opposed Strength checks with the same modifiers as a bull rush attack (a typical archerfish has +8 on this Strength check). If the archerfish wins the contest it pushes  its opponent back 5 feet, plus an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which its Strength check result is greater than the opponent's Strength check. Any opponent that is pushed back by a water jet must also make a DC 15 Reflex save or fall prone.

In addition, if the giant archerfish rolls a critical hit with a water jet, the target must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round.

The giant archerfish's water jet can not push back or knock over an opponent of an equal size to the archerfish or larger, but the waterjet can still stun such large opponents if it makes a critical hit.

The save DCs are Strength-based.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2010)

Well, that's pretty faithful to the original, but I can't help but wonder if it's maybe too much for a 3HD fish.


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, that's pretty faithful to the original, but I can't help but wonder if it's maybe too much for a 3HD fish.




I'm OK with it since it doesn't actually do any damage and only stuns on a critical.

Guess we could always increase the HD if it really bothers you.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2010)

Let's drop the stunning.  It just feels weird to me, mechanically.  The rest looks good.

If you'd really like stunning, let's make it an alternate use of the water jet.   Imagine a different setting on a power washer.


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's drop the stunning.  It just feels weird to me, mechanically.  The rest looks good.
> 
> If you'd really like stunning, let's make it an alternate use of the water jet.   Imagine a different setting on a power washer.




While we could go for a blinding/stunning water jet as an alternative attack it seems too far from the original.

I will begrudgingly drop the stunning (while keeping it for my own version ).


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2010)

Dropping the stunning is fine with me.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2010)

Updated.



> These fish cruise near the surface and track prey by sight, following long enough to orient on course and speed. Then they break the surface in a jump and squirt their jets to bring down large insects, birds, and small water-dwelling animals.




Skills: 6 ranks
Spot 6?  The Jump modifier is +12 thanks to speed and Str, so it probably doesn't need any ranks there.

Feats: 2
Skill Focus (Spot)?  Weapon Focus (bite)?


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## Cleon (Jul 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I've read these fish are very good shots with their spit, so I'm thinking Weapon Focus (water jet) or Point Blank Shot.

We could give it two WFs, one in bite and one in water jet, or WF (water jet) and PPS for a +2 to hit with its spit.

In either case, I prefer a racial bonus to Spot over Skill Focus.

That reminds me, should we have water jet on its attack line?


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

I just realized that although Large, it lacked the size modifier to AC, grapple, and attacks, and had an incorrect space/reach.

I like the idea of WF (water jet) and PBS.  The water jet is its niche, so we might as well make that as effective as possible.  And since it's usuable at will, I agree it should go on the attack lines.

Updated.

+4 racial bonus on Spot?


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> I just realized that although Large, it lacked the size modifier to AC, grapple, and attacks, and had an incorrect space/reach.
> 
> I like the idea of WF (water jet) and PBS.  The water jet is its niche, so we might as well make that as effective as possible.  And since it's usuable at will, I agree it should go on the attack lines.




Shouldn't its water jet be +5 attack? (+2 BAB, -1 size, +2 Dex, +1 WF, +1 PPS)



Shade said:


> +4 racial bonus on Spot?




That's what I'd go for.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

I didn't include Point Blank Shot since it normally isn't include (and DMs might try to use it twice).  I suppose we can note it with an asterix.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

A giant archerfish is about 9 feet long and weighs about x pounds. 

Swallow Whole (Ex): A giant archerfish can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes *xdx+x *points of bludgeoning damage and *x *points of acid damage per round from the archerfish's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the gizzard (AC 11). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Large archerfish's gizzard can hold 2 Small, 8 Tiny, or 32 Diminutive or smaller opponents.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> I didn't include Point Blank Shot since it normally isn't include (and DMs might try to use it twice).  I suppose we can note it with an asterix.




Well its water jet only has a 30 foot range, so PPS should always apply. Putting in an asterisk is a good idea though.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x
> 
> Advancement: x
> 
> A giant archerfish is about 9 feet long and weighs about x pounds.




They're not that tough. Challenge Rating 2?

Advancement: 4-6 HD (Large); 7-9 HD (Huge?) ?

I reckon they're roughly similar proportions to a clownfish. Upscaling the weight we gave the Giant Clownfish to 9 feet works out around 800 pounds.



Shade said:


> Swallow Whole (Ex): A giant archerfish can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes *xdx+x *points of bludgeoning damage and *x *points of acid damage per round from the archerfish's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the gizzard (AC 11). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.
> 
> A Large archerfish's gizzard can hold 2 Small, 8 Tiny, or 32 Diminutive or smaller opponents.




1d4+4 crushing damage and 2 points acid?


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




It looks done except for its Fortitude Save, which should be +6 not +7. (+3 for 3HD Animal, +3 for Con 17)

EDIT: Oh, and I don't like "sharklike maw" in tactics since its jaws are nothing like a shark's. How about:

A giant archerfish attacks opponents with its bite. It uses its water jet to attempt to knock landbound or shipbound prey into  the water. They can jump up to seize targets on branches or spars up to 20 feet above the water's surface.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

Updated.  Now I think we're finished.


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2010)

Yes.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2010)

*Grouper, Giant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical salt water
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil (R,X)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: Sw 12
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 2d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallows whole
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (16+’ long)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 1,400

The giant grouper is a lurking predator that can be found near coral reefs and the wrecks of sunken ships.  The largest specimens have been known to reach a length of 20 feet and weigh 1,000 pounds.  Its huge jaws act as a giant suction pump, drawing smaller fish into its gaping maw.  This giant fish sometimes stalks solitary divers like a great cat.

On a roll of 20, the giant grouper swallows a creature of man-size or less; otherwise, the creature is merely bitten.  When a grouper swallows, it creates a great suction that sweeps the intended prey and all tiny creatures (size T) within 10 feet into its maw; none of the swallowed creatures are damaged in the round they are swallowed.  A person swallowed with a dagger or similar small, sharp weapon in hand can cut his way out by inflicting damage equal to 25% of the grouper’s original hit points.  The grouper’s digestive fluids inflict 1d4 points of damage per round, starting the round after the creature is swallowed.  An enterprising character who has been swallowed might try to leave the grouper when it opens its mouth to swallow other prey, as well; this requires a successful Strength check.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #116 (1986).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four (1998) version.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2010)

It looks like another opportunity to use the vortex maw ability.  

Vortex Maw (Ex): A mastodonsaurus can open its mouth so quickly that it creates a powerful suction. All creatures within a 15-foot cone must make Strength checks opposed by the mastodonsaurus's Strength check (+8 for a standard mastodonsaurus), with the same modifiers as a bull rush. If the mastodonsaurus beats a creature's Strength check result, it pulls the victim 5 feet closer to its jaws. For each 5 points by which its check result is greater than a victim's check result, the mastodonsaurus pulls the victim an additional 5 feet closer. The victim provokes attacks of opportunity if it is moved. 

This time, we might consider a Swim check opposed by the fish's vortex maw result to attempt to escape while others are sucked in.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2010)

So either a bull-rush-like Str check or Swim check to avoid being sucked in?  That could work for me.

Do we want to bump the HD a little?  6HD is a bit low for a Huge critter, even an animal.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

I was thinking the Swim check to escape once already swallowed, but it could probably be expanded to the initial attack.

Sure, let's bump the HD a bit.   An orca is Huge, with 9 HD.  These start at about the same size, so use the same HD?

Orca ability scores:  Str 27, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6

Spot-checking a few fish, they've got Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.

So maybe Str 27, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2?  Possibly drop Str by 2?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2010)

Make Str 23-25 (your choice), and I'll agree with all that.


----------



## Shade (Jul 9, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2010)

Looks pretty good!

Split the ranks between Hide and Spot?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> I was thinking the Swim check to escape once already swallowed, but it could probably be expanded to the initial attack.
> 
> Sure, let's bump the HD a bit.   An orca is Huge, with 9 HD.  These start at about the same size, so use the same HD?
> 
> ...




That Dexterity seems rather high. They're not very fast or agile fish and rely on their suction-attack to catch prey.

Methinks Dex 13 or even lower.


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## Shade (Jul 12, 2010)

I'll settle for Dex 13.

Thoughts on freyar's proposed skills?


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## freyar (Jul 12, 2010)

Well, I like them! 

For feats, would we want Imp Bull Rush or Ability Focus for the Vortex Maw?  I'm sort of at a loss for feats otherwise.


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, I like them!
> 
> For feats, would we want Imp Bull Rush or Ability Focus for the Vortex Maw?  I'm sort of at a loss for feats otherwise.




Splitting skills between Hide and Spot is fine by me. We'd better give them a racial bonus to Hide since they're big creatures.

Going by the RAW Ability Focus would not work on its Vortex Maw since it uses a Strength check rather than a saving throw.

However, the description gives it "the same modifiers as a bull rush" so shouldn't a standard grouper get a +8 size bonus for being Huge, making its Strength check +15? That ought to be enough to suck in most victims, or we could throw in the +4 "exceptionally stable" bonus.

The feats the SRD Huge Shark has look a pretty good fit to me - Alertness, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will.

That Great Fortitude looks worth exchanging for something else, since it's already got a high Fort save.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2010)

We may want to swap Alertness for Skill Focus (Spot).

Switch Great Fort out for Blind Fight or Power Attack?


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## Cleon (Jul 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> We may want to swap Alertness for Skill Focus (Spot).
> 
> Switch Great Fort out for Blind Fight or Power Attack?




It uses opportunity attacks to swallow victims sucked in by its Vortex Maw, right? That suggests Combat Reflexes would be useful, so it can gulp down multiple prey items.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2010)

Great idea!  Combat Reflexes it is!


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Great idea!  Combat Reflexes it is!




Good oh!

We still haven't got a damage for Swallow Whole - how about 1d10+7 plus 4 points acid, with 25 hp to cut through its gizzard?

For the remaining "Xs", I'm thinking:

Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Advancement: 10-17 (Huge); 18-27 (Gargantuan)


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2010)

I think I'd make it CR 6, but the rest sounds good.


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think I'd make it CR 6, but the rest sounds good.




Not sure it merits being 2 Challenge Ratings higher than the SRD Huge Shark. It may have 3 more Str and 6 more Con than the shark plus the Vortex Maw, but the shark has 1 more HD.

By the way, why have why giving it standard Str bonus on its bite damage instead of the 1.5 for it being its sole attack?


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2010)

I'm not sure why it's not 1.5 Str.  

Well, I was just comparing to other CR 5 and CR 6 critters and felt like it was a bit closer to CR 6.  But it might be a tough 5.


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## freyar (Jul 19, 2010)

Looks good to me.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 19, 2010)

The fish looks fine!

The only thing I could think of was maybe doubling its Swallow Whole capacity, since it's its main schtick.

(e.g. "A Huge giant grouper's gizzard can hold 4 Medium, 16 Small, 64 Tiny, or 256 Diminutive or smaller opponents.")


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm indifferent on the matter.  Anyone else have an opinion?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2010)

I think I'd rather not, unless we're letting it swallow Large critters, too.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

Alrighty.   Here's the next one...

*Porcupine Fish*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical salt water
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
DIET: Coral
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: Sw 9
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (2’-3’ long)
MORALE: Unsteady (5)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The porcupine fish is related to the puffer fish.  It is found near rocky coasts and coral reefs.  Territorial, it does not stray far from its feeding grounds, where it eats coral, clams, and small crustaceans.  If threatened, it flees to its abode at the earliest opportunity.  The porcupine fish is not aggressive, but can be dangerous.

If provoked, a porcupine fish might bite for 1d3 points of damage.  When attacked or threatened, however, the fish inflates its body to three times its normal size.  This causes numerous dagger-length spines to appear across its body.  A natural physical attack (such as a bite or tentacle) against a porcupine fish allows it an attack roll for its spines.  If the spine attack is successful, the opponent receives 3d4 points of physical damage and must make an immediate saving throw vs. poison.  Failure means the poisoned creature will die within 1d4 rounds.  If an attacker comes within 5 feet, a panicked porcupine fish might dart forward suddenly to attack with its spines.  Barracuda eat them, becoming toxic to human consumption in the process.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four (1998).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porcupine_fish


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think I'd rather not, unless we're letting it swallow Large critters, too.




I can live without it.

Or better still, use a bigger gizzard if I run them.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Alrighty.   Here's the next one...
> 
> *Porcupine Fish*




This monster had an earlier appearance in Dragon #116. While it's 1E its stats are very similar, except for a couple of points - it's a lot speedier (swim 25 instead of swim 9!) and the description of its spine attack is a less reactive - the text says it rams its spiky body into an attacker who get within 5 feet. Mechanically it's similat (attack role for spine damage & poison), but it doesn't have to wait for its opponent to attack.

*PORCUPINE FISH, GIANT*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: //25”
HIT DICE: 1
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Killing poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (2-3’)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: II/45 + 1/hp

The giant porcupine fish is related to the puffer fish and the smaller porcupine fish. The giant porcupine fish is territorial and is most often found near rocky shelters and coral reefs. If endangered, this creature flees to its abode at the earliest opportunity.

The giant porcupine fish can bite for 1-3 hp damage; when attacked or threatened, it inflates its body, swelling to a size three times its normal girth. This action is performed by retaining water in the creature’s stomach and using flexible abdominal sacs. By inflating itself, the fish causes numerous dagger-length spines to appear across its body. If an attacker comes within 5’ of these spines, the giant porcupine fish may approach and attempt to score a successful hit; if this happens, the attacker takes 3-12 hp damage from the spines and must also make a save vs. poison; failure results in death within 1-4 rounds. In any event, damage is taken, even if the attacker saves vs. poison.

_Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #116 (1986)._


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

Anyhow, I'd quite like to allow both an active and reactive attack with the spines.

For the speed, the slower Swim 9 seems more appropriate, although I am wondering about having it have a reduced swim speed when its "puffed out".

Statwise, I'm thinking the Clownfish conversion we did is a good start:

*Giant Clownfish:* Str 9, Dex 12, Con  14, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 10

Maybe cut the Dex a step, since it doesn't seem that agile?

*Giant Porcupine Fish:*  Str 9, Dex 10, Con  14, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 10


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

That all sounds reasonable.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> That all sounds reasonable.




Good!

Armour Class: 14 (+1 size, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14

Swim 30 ft.? Maybe have it act as heavily encumbered when "puffed up", so it slows to 20 feet.

It's got a nasty venom - looks like Con damage, probably with a racial bonus or Ability Focus to boost the DC.

Do we want it to be potentially fatal like the original or cut it down to nasty but not likely lethal? Maybe 1d6 Con?

3-12 damage for the spines seems an awful lot considering its size and strength. Shall we trim the spine damage down?


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

1d6 Con for the poison, 1d6 damage for the spines?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2010)

I can go for all that.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> I can go for all that.




J'accord.


----------



## Shade (Jul 22, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

We'll need to work the "puffing up" into the spines entry somehow.  Should it increase its size to Medium when puffed, in addition to the reduced speed Cleon suggested upthread?


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> We'll need to work the "puffing up" into the spines entry somehow.  Should it increase its size to Medium when puffed, in addition to the reduced speed Cleon suggested upthread?




I was thinking something like this:

*Inflation (Ex)*: A giant porcupine fish can inflate itself by swallowing water. Inflation is an standard [*?*] action, as is deflation. An inflated porcupine fish is considered one size larger for purposes of defending against size-based special attacks such as Bull Rush, Overrun and Swallow Whole attacks. Furthermore, inflation causes the fish's spines to stand erect, giving it a spiny defence (see below).

An inflated porcupine fish is heavily encumbered by the weight of the swallowed water, which slows its swim speed to 20 ft.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2010)

That seems a good start.  I'd probably make it a swift action to deflate.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> That seems a good start.  I'd probably make it a swift action to deflate.




I was wondering about making it a move action for both.


----------



## freyar (Jul 26, 2010)

Hmmm, I might make it immediate to inflate and standard to deflate, but any of these options is ok by me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 26, 2010)

Immediate action is intriguing...


----------



## Cleon (Jul 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, I might make it immediate to inflate and standard to deflate, but any of these options is ok by me.




Immediate is tempting for the inflation.

Standard or move-equivalent to deflate?


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2010)

Either way is ok by me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

Let's go with immediate and move actions.

Updated.

Skills: 4
Spot?

Feats: 1
Weapon Focus (spines)?

Challenge Rating: 1?

Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small)?

A giant porcupine fish is 2 to 3 feet long and weighs x pounds.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Either way is ok by me.




Both move or standard action are fine by me too, so shall we leave it to Shade or flip a d2?


----------



## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

I already decided (see post above yours).  

Take that, d2!


----------



## Cleon (Jul 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> I already decided (see post above yours).
> 
> Take that, d2!




Poor d2, the least loved of the random number generators.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's go with immediate and move actions.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




Well I don't know what their eyesight is like but they've got pretty big eyes, so Spot is OK by me.

WF (spines) doesn't feel right to me, since the real-world variety are not aggressive.

They're tough little fellows though, and have a nasty neurotoxin, so Endurance or Ability Focus (poison)?

Speaking of that poison, the real-world porcupine fish has poisonous internal organs, not spines. I don't mind giving the monster version poison spines, but feel we should keep the ingested poison for creatures that try to eat them. Maybe make the latter nastier.

How about:

Poison (Ex): A porcupine fish's spines and many of its internal organs are poisonous.

Spine poison - Injury by spines, Fortitude DC 12 [or 14 with Ability Focus], initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con.

Organ poison - Ingestion, Fortitude DC 12 [or 14 with Ability Focus], initial and secondary damage 2d6 Con.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 1?
> 
> Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small)?
> 
> A giant porcupine fish is 2 to 3 feet long and weighs x pounds.




The CR looks good, but I'd have them advance to at least Medium and possibly even Large. They are supposedly *giant* porcupine fish, and the real-world variety can reach 3 feet long in the wild.

So, Advancement: 2 HD (Small); 3-4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large) ?

As for the weight, some googling has found that these fish range from 15-90 cm in length and weigh from 40-100 grams for the smaller (20 cm or so) species and 500-3000 grams for the larger (30-90 cm) ones.

I suggest we scale the giant variety to a 30 cm, half-kilo specimen. Scaling that up to 2 feet would give it a weight of 9.25-31.25 pounds.

Which would give us something like...

A giant porcupine fish is 2 to 3 feet long and weighs 10 to 30 pounds.


----------



## freyar (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm happy to go with Cleon's suggestions here.

These guys are probably shaping up as CR 1 except for that quite deadly poison, so I wouldn't add an ability focus.  Endurance for the feat, then?


----------



## Shade (Jul 29, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Poor d2, the least loved of the random number generators.




Yeah, I'd rather spend my d2s on other things, like more dice.  

All the rest sounds good.

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I'd rather spend my d2s on other things, like more dice.
> 
> All the rest sounds good.
> 
> Updated.




It needs a description and I'm not sure about the tactics entry:

A giant porcupine fish is not aggressive, but can be dangerous.  If  threatened, it attempts to flee to its lair at the earliest opportunity.   If provoked, it may bite, but if attacked, it immediately inflates its  body, revealing long, sharp spines.  These spines not only deter  attacks, but allow the fish to making offensive impalements.

Since it mentions a lair, we'll need to say what these are like. I'd suggest amending the description:

 How about:

_This fish has a thick, sturdy body entirely covered with long spines.  Its wide head has a large eye on each side, with a slit-like mouth set  between.

_Giant porcupine fish are found near rocky coasts and coral reefs, where they lair in caves or crevices.  They  are highly territorial, never straying far from their feeding grounds.

A giant porcupine fish feeds primarily on coral, clams, and small crustaceans.  

A giant porcupine fish is 2 to 3 feet long and weighs 10 to 30 pounds.

*Combat*
A giant porcupine fish is not aggressive, but may bite when provoked.  If  it sees danger, the fish flees to its lair at the earliest opportunity. When attacked or threatened the giant porcupine fish immediately inflates its  body, erecting its knife-long poisonous spines.  These spines not only deter  attacks, but the fish can use them to make impaling attacks.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2010)

Looks good.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Updated.




What about the additional "where they lair in caves or crevices" in the description? I'd like to say what its lair is like.

Apart from that quibble, it seems done.


----------



## freyar (Jul 31, 2010)

Cleon said:


> What about the additional "where they lair in caves or crevices" in the description? I'd like to say what its lair is like.
> 
> Apart from that quibble, it seems done.



Give us some text; you know you want to!


----------



## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Give us some text; you know you want to!




I already did.



Cleon said:


> How about:
> 
> _This fish has a thick, sturdy body entirely covered with long spines.   Its wide head has a large eye on each side, with a slit-like mouth set   between.
> 
> ...


----------



## freyar (Aug 2, 2010)

Ahh, I thought you meant even more.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ahh, I thought you meant even more.




Well I wouldn't want to gild the lily.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

Updated, you lily-gilders!  (Where's that pirate emoticon? )

Next...

*Morena*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical salt water
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 3 (6 if stationary)
MOVEMENT: Sw 15
HIT DICE: 3+2
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d4+2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Evades missiles
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (3’-4’ long)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 2,000

The morena is similar to a moray eel in shape, but has the disposition of a piranha.  It is aggressive and avoided even by sharks.  The morena resides in coral reef niches or caves, much like a moray eel, and might be mistaken for one while at rest.  The morena is gray-green, but may be lighter or darker, blending in with its aquatic environment.

If disturbed in its lair, a morena may shoot out to 40 feet in a single thrust, suprising on a roll of 1-8 and gaining a +2 bonus to its attack roll.  Otherwise, it moves with a quick side-to-side pattern. Missilve fire automatically misses the rapidly moving creature at first, and a penalty of -4 applies to an opponent’s missile attack rolls against it thereafter.

While in motion, the morena has an Armor Class of 2.  When it bites, not only does the morena inflict 1d4+1 points of damage, but its  jaws lock, inflicting 2d4+2 each round thereafter.  When its jaws are locked or when the creature is stationary, the morena has an Armor Class of 6.  The morena releases its hold and flees if reduced to a third of its hit points or less. A morena regenerates damage at a rate of 1 hit point per turn, though it dies if reduced to 0 hit points.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four (1998).


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

Small Animal, I guess.

Didn't we do something like that "surprise thrust" from the burrow before?


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

This fish originally appeared in Dragon #116 with basically the same stats, including the bit were the text says its bite does 1d4+1 damage (doubled with locked jaws) while its Damage/Attack line says 3-6 damage. Its name was spelled differently though:

*[FONT=&quot]MORANA
*[/FONT]*FREQUENCY:*_ Uncommon
_*NO. APPEARING:*_ 1-4
_*ARMOR CLASS:*_ 6 (2 if moving)
_*MOVE:*_ //18”
_*HIT DICE:*_ 3+2
_*% IN LAIR:*_ 30%
_*TREASURE TYPE:*_ Nil
_*NO. OF ATTACKS:*_ 1 bite
_*DAMAGE/ATTACK:*_ 3-6
_*SPECIAL ATTACKS:*_ Surprise, continuous damage
_*SPECIAL DEFENSES:*_ Evades missiles, regeneration
_*MAGIC RESISTANCE:*_ Standard
_*INTELLIGENCE:*_ Animal
_*ALIGNMENT:*_ Neutral
_*SIZE:*_ S (3-4’ long)
_*PSIONIC ABILITY:*_ Nil
_*Attack/Defense Modes:*_ Nil
_*LEVEL/XP VALUE:*_ IV/160 + 4/hp
_
The morana is similar to a moray eel in shape, having the temperament of an angry piranha. Moranas are usually gray green, but may be found in lighter or darker colors, usually blending with the aquatic environment. The morana regenerates at the rate of 1 hp/turn if wounded.

The morana’s movement is a quick, constant, side-to-side pattern. Missile fire automatically misses the creature at first, and a -4 penalty applies to all such “to hit” rolls thereafter. The morana has AC 3 while in motion. Though the damage from a bite is but 2-5 hp, the morana inflicts additional damage by locking its jaws; the victim of such a bite takes double damage each round following. While locked onto a victim, the creature has AC 6. The morana releases its hold and flees if it is reduced to a third of its hit points or less.

Moranas are aggressive and are avoided even by sharks. They lair in coral niches or caves, much like moray eels, and are often mistaken for morays while resting. If encountered in its lair, a morana may shoot out to 40’ in a single thrust, thus gaining a +2 bonus on its “to hit” roll and surprising on a 1-5.


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Small Animal, I guess.




I'd go Magical Beast, since it has regeneration or fast healing.



freyar said:


> Didn't we do something like that "surprise thrust" from the burrow before?




Didn't we use something similar for one of the giant Polychaete worms?

Anyhow, I'm thinking:

Small Magical Beast
3HD
Attach or Improved Grab
Fast Healing 1

Its AC 6 when grappling and AC3 when moving (or AC2 by the 1E Armour Class line), suggesting Dex 17 or so.

Bite 1d4+1 implies Strength 12-13.

Constitution is probably also pretty good as it has 3+2 HD. Maybe 14-15?

How about the following:

*Morena:* Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 3, natural armour +3


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

FWIW, here's the moray eel from Dragon #328...

Medium Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+6
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+3/19-20)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+3/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, powerful bite
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +10*, Move Silently +5, Swim +9
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB
Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: ?
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: -

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a moray eel must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold. Moray eels gain a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.

Powerful Bite (Ex): The moray eel gains a +2 racial bonus on damage rolls with its bite attack, and threatens a critical hit on a 19-20.

Skills: A moray eel has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A moray eel gains a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks when in reefs or caves.


I looked through the polychaetes, but couldn't find such an ability.  I did find a few posts where we deemed it unnecessary.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2010)

Oh, I missed the fast healing the first time through.  Although I usually think of it as a magical thing, it's listed as Ex in the rules, so it's not a real barrier to animal type.  I sympathize with magical beast for that reason, though.

On the "shoot from burrow," didn't Cleon have a draft ability we could pilfer?


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Hmm...since the real morena is simply another name for "moray eel", perhaps making a magical beast will be necessary to warrant a conversion.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> I looked through the polychaetes, but couldn't find such an ability.  I did find a few posts where we deemed it unnecessary.




Ah, I was probably remembering us arguing about it. Anyhow, a 40 ft. lunge ability seems surplus to requirement seeing as how the could probably go further than that with a regular move action.

Anyhow, how's this for a start, based on the Moray:

*Morena*
Small Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+8
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d4+1/19-20)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d4+1/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, lock jaws
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 1, low-light vision, undulating displacement
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +4
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +8* (+16 in reefs or caves), Spot +6, Swim +9
 Feats: Fleet of Foot, Iron Will, Run (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary or seething (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4 HD (Small); 5-8 HD (Medium); 9-12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: ---

_A grey-green fish resembling a moray eel, it writhes so furiously it's impossible to tell exactly where it is._

A morena is similar to a moray eel, but it is far more aggressive.  A  morena is so aggressive, in fact, that most aquatic predators, even  sharks, avoid it. 

Like moray eels, morenas reside in coral reef niches or caves. 

A morena is 3 to 5 feet long and weighs up to 100 pounds.

COMBAT

Morena prefer to lie in wait in their lairs, then strike swiftly from ambush.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a morena must hit with its  bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action  without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple  check, it establishes a hold and can lock jaws. Morenas gain a +8 racial bonus on  grapple checks.

*Lock Jaws (Ex):* A morena can lock its jaws into a creature it is grappling as a standard action, automatically doing 2d4+2 damage each round. A jaw-locked morena can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To  remove a jaw-locked morena through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin  against the morena.

*Undulating Displacement (Su):* A swimming morena  distorts light around itself, making its apparent position undulate from  side to side of its true location when viewed from more than 5 feet  away. Any ranged or reach attack against a moving morena has a 50% miss  chance, as if the morena had total concealment, although this  displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the morena  normally. A _true seeing_ spell reveals its true location.

A morena only gains this miss chance on rounds it spends a move action to swim in. Undulating displacement does not function if the morena is grappled or heavily encumbered.

*Skills:* A morena has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform  some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10  on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run  action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A morena gains a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks when in reefs or caves.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated, you lily-gilders!  (Where's that pirate emoticon? )




I happened to be flicking through the Dragonlance Monstrous Compendium and noticed another take on the Porcupine Fish - the Kalothagh or Prickleback.

It's basically a 4+4 HD 12' long fish that can shoot its spines like a manticore.

(The spines are poisoned, of course. )

Has this been converted yet?

If not, it seems a natural follow-up for the Giant Porcupine Fish once we're done with the Morena.


----------



## freyar (Aug 8, 2010)

It seems to me the Con should be higher for the morena, given that the original has 3+2 HD.  Maybe Con 14?  Since we're making it a magical beast, perhaps we could boost the Int also, or make Evade Missile Su, or something.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> It seems to me the Con should be higher for the morena, given that the original has 3+2 HD.  Maybe Con 14?  Since we're making it a magical beast, perhaps we could boost the Int also, or make Evade Missile Su, or something.




I'm fine increasing the Con to 14. After all, a Small Dog has Con 15 so it's not that excessive.

I'll edit it into the working draft.

I'd keep the Intelligence to 1 since the description suggests they're stupidly vicious.

As for making Evade Missiles Supernatural, I'm all for that. Having an (Ex) power that infallibly dodges missiles didn't feel right.

How about basing it on _displacement_, since the mechanics are similar to the AD&D Displacer Beast - first attack misses, subsequent attacks -2 to hit.

How about:
*
Some Name [Swimming Displacement?] (Su):* A swimming morena distorts light around itself, making its apparent position undulate from side to side of its true location when viewed from more than 5 feet away. Any ranged or reach attack against a moving morena has a 50% miss chance, as if the morena had total concealment, although this displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the morena normally. A _true seeing_ spell reveals its true location.

A morena only gains this miss chance on rounds it spends a move action to swim in. *Some Name* does not function when the morena is in a grapple or if it is heavily encumbered.


----------



## freyar (Aug 9, 2010)

I like that ability!  The rest is ok, too.

Looking back at Lock Jaws, there should be some mechanism to remove the morena.   Like this, taken from the stirge:  "An jaw-locked morena can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove a morena through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the morena."


----------



## Cleon (Aug 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> I like that ability!  The rest is ok, too.




Good! I'll put it in.

Not quite sure what to call it, but I'll use "Undulating Displacement" as a placeholder.



freyar said:


> Looking back at Lock Jaws, there should be some mechanism to remove the morena.   Like this, taken from the stirge:  "An jaw-locked morena can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove a morena through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the morena."




Good idea, I'll add it.

*Updated*.


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Aug 10, 2010)

Looks like special abilities are done.  

I'm not sure I like Weapon Focus as the feat, since the attack bonus (and AC) is already pretty good for the damage and hp.  What about Iron Will?

3 ranks each in Hide and Move Silently?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks like special abilities are done.
> 
> I'm not sure I like Weapon Focus as the feat, since the attack bonus (and AC) is already pretty good for the damage and hp.  What about Iron Will?




Yes, I wasn't sure about what its other feat should be either.

Iron Will is OK by me. It goes with their bloody-mindedness.



freyar said:


> 3 ranks each in Hide and Move Silently?




I'd nix the Move Silently. They won't need it when lurking motionless in their lair, and I imagine they're pretty noisy while rushing out at prey.

How about Hide and Spot?

Give them a racial bonus in Hide? Maybe only when lurking amid coral?


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I wasn't sure about what its other feat should be either.
> 
> Iron Will is OK by me. It goes with their bloody-mindedness.
> 
> ...




I'm OK with all that.  If we're dropping Move Silently, let's change Stealthy to Skill Focus (Hide).



Cleon said:


> Give them a racial bonus in Hide? Maybe only when lurking amid coral?




You already gave 'em this:

*A morena gains a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks when in reefs or caves.

Are you proposing to change "reefs and caves" to "coral"?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm OK with all that.  If we're dropping Move Silently, let's change Stealthy to Skill Focus (Hide).
> 
> You already gave 'em this:




That's good.



Shade said:


> *A morena gains a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks when in reefs or caves.
> 
> Are you proposing to change "reefs and caves" to "coral"?




No, I'd just forgotten I'd already covered it.

*Updated* with Hide & Spot, Iron Will and SF (Hide).

Hmm, that gives them Hide +21 and Spot +4. Seems an awfully high Hide.

I'll switch the SF (Hide) to something else. I'm provisionally putting in Fleet of Foot since they're good at zigzagging.

That's still a mighty impressive +18 Hide score so I'll shift a couple of points from Hide to Spot to make it Hide +16, Spot +6.

*Re-Updated* with the above changes.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

Where are you getting Hide +21?   I get 3 ranks +4 size +3 Dex +3 Skill Focus = +13


----------



## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

And there's that +8 racial bonus.

Fleet of Foot is good, but then we need to swap Iron Will for Run to meet the prereqs.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> And there's that +8 racial bonus.
> 
> Fleet of Foot is good, but then we need to swap Iron Will for Run to meet the prereqs.




I'd rather give it Run as a bonus feat.


----------



## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

Fair enough.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Fair enough.




*Updated* with Run.

Organization: ?
Challenge Rating: 2?
Advancement: ?

The original's NA is 1-4, so we need a collective noun for them.

Organization: Solitary or [name] (2-4)

A mauling of morena? A savagery of morena? A writhing of morena?

Challenge Rating 2 looks fair to me.

I feel they should be at the upper limit of the Small scale, so how about 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large) for the Advancement?

Alternatively, we could spread the range to 4 times their base Hit Dice and make it 4 HD (Small); 5-8 HD (Medium); 9-12 HD (Large)?


----------



## freyar (Aug 15, 2010)

Various sites give the following collective nouns for eels: swarm, pipe, bed, array, seething, cell.  Personally, I prefer either seething or savagery.

Since they should be able to lock on pretty easily with that +8 to grapple, so I think they're probably worth CR 3.  They look pretty much better all-round than a choker, which has a similar shtick.

Go for advancement to 12HD.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Various sites give the following collective nouns for eels: swarm, pipe, bed, array, seething, cell.  Personally, I prefer either seething or savagery.




I like seething best of those two.



freyar said:


> Since they should be able to lock on pretty easily with that +8 to grapple, so I think they're probably worth CR 3.  They look pretty much better all-round than a choker, which has a similar shtick.




Hmm, I'm still leaning toward Challenge Rating 2.

Chokers have Quickness, which is horrible overpowered - especially if you let PCs get their mitts on it!

They also do more damage - two 1d3+3s add up to 2d3+6, which is almost three times a morena's 1d4+1 and 50% more than its locked jaws 2d4+2.



freyar said:


> Go for advancement to 12HD.




That we can agree on!

*Updated*


----------



## Shade (Aug 16, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Looks good, except for a couple of points.

The "seems particularly vicious" bit in the description doesn't work for me.

How about.

_A grey-green fish resembling a moray eel, it writhes so furiously it's impossible to tell exactly where it is._

I don't like my wording of "Undulating displacement does not function when the morena is grappling or while heavily encumbered."

I'll change it to "Undulating displacement does not function if the morena is grappled or heavily encumbered."

*Updated and hopefully finished*


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

It's hard to imagine a morena bogged down in gear.  

Updated.  I think it's finished now.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> It's hard to imagine a morena bogged down in gear.




Easy-peasy. All you need is a custom made suit of full plate.

'Course it helps if it's an awakened morena fighter.



Shade said:


> Updated.  I think it's finished now.




Hold on a sec, I moved 2 skill points from Hide to Spot to give it Hide +16 in reefs (inc. its +8 racial bonus) and Spot +6, i.e. its skill line is:

*Skills:* Hide +8* [_+16 in reefs and caves_], Spot +6, Swim +9

Did you prefer the original lower-Spot version?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2010)

Those skills are perfectly acceptable.   Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2010)

Done now?


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Done now?




It looks that way.

Swim free my psycho-eel friend! Swim free!!


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

*Clam, Giant *
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 10/3 (shell)
MOVE: //1”
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE:  See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Entrapment
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (6’ length)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: III/90 + 3/hp

*Clam, Giant, Carnivorous*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 10/4  (shell)
MOVE: //1” [10” using bursts]
HIT DICE: 4
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE:  See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 ram
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison cloud, surprise, continuous damage
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (6’ length)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: IV/175 + 4/hp

Both the giant clam and the giant carnivorous clam are found in shallow tropical and semitropical waters, down to a maximum depth of 200’. Both have numerous tiny, blue eye spots located near the edges of the shell. These eye spots can distinguish between light and shadow, and can detect movement, but not size. Special organs near the front of the mantle cavity, where the soft body of the clam sits, detect and analyze chemical traces in the water.

The giant clam is a filtrationist, living on minute shrimp and microscopic animals, and on algae colonies growing inside the clam’s shell mantle. When threatened or when something reaches inside the clam.s shell, the giant clam’s usual defense is to close its shell. Due to the animal.s power ful adductor muscles, which act as a hinge for the shell, a bend bars/lift gates roll is required to force the shell open again. 

The giant carnivorous clam has evolved a slightly higher intelligence than its sessile cousin, which it uses to hunt for prey. Both clams are capable of using their inhalent and exhalent siphons to move across the sea bottom; the carnivorous clam can also, through vigorous clapping of its shell halves, .swim. in a jerky fashion with its exhalent siphon, providing lateral adjustment and maneuverability. The shell thickness of the clam is reduced to increase buoyancy. The clam’s external cilia have evolved into a set of 4-10 2’-long tentacles, used mainly to grasp and move prey to the clam’s stomach. The tentacles are too weak to do any damage or to grasp and hold prey with a strength greater than 6.

The carnivorous clam can, by a sudden expulsion of water through closing its shell, jet backwards and ram an opponent within 5’ for 1-10 points of damage. The clam’s usual method of attack is to shoot a mild neurotoxin into the water through its exhalent siphon. The toxin disperses in a 5’-diameter cloud and causes paralysis for 1-12 rounds to any creature that fails to make its saving throw vs. poison. The paralyzed prey is then grasped by the clam’s tentacles and either pulled directly into the clam (for 1 hp/turn digestion damage thereafter) or cut into smaller pieces by sawing motions of the clam’s shell (1-2 hp damage/round).

The inside of both clam shells are lined with nacre or mother-of-pearl, with a base value of 50 gp depending on the amount of mother-of-pearl adventurers can recover. (DMs should consult the table on page 26 of the Dungeon Masters Guide to determine the final amount. This amount should never exceed 500 gp.) There is a 10% chance that a clam has one giant pearl worth 500-1000 gp, depending upon its size and quality. The pearl may be as large as a fist, but will not be as lustrous as smaller pearls from pearl oysters. There is a 5% chance that, scattered about or buried in the sediment around the clam, a few coins, accoutrements, or minor magic items were left behind by an unfortunate victim who was caught and drowned.

Both clams are nearly identical in appearance. The upper shell of both clams is light brown, while the lower shell is white. Giant clams of both varieties are found nestled in the sand or resting on the sedimentary bottom of oceans. Sometimes, the giant clam buries itself to provide an offensive advantage against prey (surprise on 1-5).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #116 (1986).

MCA4 version…

*Giant Carnivorous Scallop*
The giant carnivorous scallop is, to the uninitiated, virtually indistinguishable from a giant clam.  However, it has evolved slightly higher intelligence than its cousin, and actively hunts for prey.  This creature can actually swim by making a butterfly movement with its shell.  It can, by a sudden expulsion of water, jet backward, ramming an opponent within 30 feet for 1d10 points of damage.

The carnivorous scallop’s usual method of attack is to expel a mild neurotoxin through its exhalant siphon.  The toxin disperses in a 10-foot diameter cloud that paralyzes for 1d12 rounds any creature that fails to make a successful save vs. poison.  The paralyzed prey is then grasped by the external cilia and either drawn directly into the stomach (where it suffers 1 point per round of damage while being digested) or cut into smaller pieces by sawing motions of the shell (which inflict 1d3 points per round).

Sometimes a giant carnivorous scallop buries itself in a sandy ocean bottom to hide from predators or surprise prey.  When the clam is concealed, opponents have a -5 penalty to their surprise rolls.

Other giant clam notes from MCA4…

Some species have wavy-edged shells that are very sharp. On a natural roll of 19 or 20, these will sever a trapped limb.

Larger or smaller giant shellfish can be generated by assuming 1+1 Hit Die per two feet of shell diameter and adjusting other characteristics accordingly.  Unconfirmed rumors suggest the possibility of intelligent, or even psionic clam and oyster colonies.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

The giant clam has already been converted in Tome of Horrors revised.  Here are its pertinent stats...

CLAM, GIANT
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: -5
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, -5 Dex, +10 natural),
touch 4, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
Attack: See text
Full Attack: See text
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Acid 1d2, engulf
Special Qualities: Blindsight 30 ft., camouflage, vermin
traits
Saves: Fort +6, Ref –4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 1, Con 15, Int —, Wis 10,
Cha 9
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Warm or temperate aquatic
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-10)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: 50% standard
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5–8 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

Acid (Ex): A giant clam has a slow-acting acid that it uses to break down organic matter trapped in its interior. An engulfed creature takes 1d2 points of acid damage each round.

Engulf (Ex): As a standard action, a giant clam can attempt to pull a creature up to one size smaller than itself that is within reach into its interior. An opponent can make an attack of opportunity against the clam, but if it does so it is not entitled to a saving throw. An opponent that does not attempt an attack of opportunity must succeed on a DC 17 Reflex save or be pulled into the clam’s interior.

An engulfed creature is subject to the clam’s acid, and is considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Strength-based.

A giant clam can be forced open by making an opposed Strength check against the clam’s Strength check. Otherwise, it opens on its own in 1d4 hours.

Blindsight (Ex): Giant clams have no visual organs but can ascertain all foes within 30 feet using vibration.

Camouflage (Ex): The rough shell of a giant clam is usually draped with barnacles, anemones, and bits of coral, which help it to blend in with its environment. Creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a giant clam. Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (any water- or searelated skill) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the giant clam.


I've included the original giant clam stats above for comparison purposes.  We'll just be convertin the carnivorous (scallop) version.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Okay then.

I fancy giving it animal intelligence like the AD&D stats indicate and make it an Animal or Magical Beast. Animal would be enough, but I am tempted by Magical Beast - these things could easily have an unnatural origin.

Take the 3E Giant Clam and give it a 15 ft. Swim speed and a ram attack plus a Paralysing Cloud. We can adapt the Stun Cloud we just did for the Lemon Fish for the latter attack.

The text suggest they can grab hold of creatures to large to engulf and aw them too pieces, so I suggest giving them an Improved Grab attack that can be followed up by either automatic slashing and bludgeoning damage from its sawing shell or a swallow whole attack, which leads to the normal crushing & acid.


----------



## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

I too prefer magical beast.  And if we need to solidify that selection...



			
				MCA4 said:
			
		

> Unconfirmed rumors suggest the possibility of intelligent, or even psionic clam and oyster colonies.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 4, 2010)

Shade said:


> I too prefer magical beast.  And if we need to solidify that selection...




We're obviously going to have to stat up Psychic Killer Clams as well.

No, I'm not joking.

Still, we'd better finish the Carnivorous Scallops first.

I'll increase the Dexterity to 5 since they're mobile. That gives them an Armor Class equivalent to the original's AC4.

It occurs to me that I'd like them to be immune to mind-affecting powers, either as a legacy of their Vermin origins or due to Nascent Psychic Powers.

Also gave them scent, since it says they have special organs to detect waterborne chemicals.

Rather than my original Improved Grab/Constrict/Swallow Whole idea I'm going to try to fold it all into one special attack, I've called it "Trap Shell" but I don't care for the name that much - can you think of anything better?

I've removed the "Giant clams have no visual organs" bit from Blinsight, since the AD&D Giant Clam had lots of little eyes to see with, just like real world *Scallops* whose eyes can detect light and motion.

So, here's a first stab at it:

*CLAM, GIANT, CARNIVOROUS*
Large Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 4d10+8 (30 hp)
Initiative: -3
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), swim 15 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, -3 Dex, +10 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+13
Attack: Ram +8 melee (1d10+5)
Full Attack: Ram +8 melee (1d10+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Paralyzing cloud, trap shell
Special Qualities: Blindsight 30 ft., camouflage, immunity to mind-affecting effects, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 5, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 9
Skills: 7
Feats: 2
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-10)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: 50% standard
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5–8 HD (Large); 9-12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

*Blindsight (Ex):* Giant carnivorous clams can ascertain all foes within 30 feet using vibration.

*Camouflage (Ex):* The rough shell of a giant carnivorous clam is usually draped with  barnacles, anemones, and bits of coral, which help it to blend in with  its environment. Creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a  giant clam. Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (any water- or  sea related skill) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice  the giant clam.

*Paralyzing Cloud (Ex):* Once per day, a giant carnivorous clam can release a cloud of chemicals in a 10-foot spread (15-foot for a Huge clam). All living creatures within this cloud must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for *1d4* rounds. Creatures with immunity to poison or paralysis are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison or paralysis receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. A _delay poison,_ _neutralize poison_ or _remove paralysis_ spell removes the effect from a paralyzed creature. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Trap Shell (Ex):* As a standard action, a giant carnivorous clam can attempt to trap any creature within reach up to one size larger than itself. The target can make an attack of opportunity against the  clam, but if it does so it is not entitled to a saving throw. An  opponent that does not attempt an attack of opportunity must succeed on a  DC 17 Reflex save or be trapped. Immobilized creatures, including those affected by the clam's paralyzing cloud, are not entitled to a saving throw. The save DC is Strength-based.

If the trapped opponent is smaller than the clam, they are drawn inside the clam's stomach, where they take 1d4+5 bludgeoning damage plus 1d4 acid damage per round. If the opponent is the same size as the clam or one size larger, the clam uses the razor-sharp edges of its shell to saw at the trapped opponent, automatically inflicting 1d6+7 points of bludgeoning and  slashing damage per round.

A giant carnivorous clam can be forced to release a trapped opponent by succeeding at an opposed Strength check  against the clam's Strength check (the clam gets a +4 racial bonus on this Strength check). A trapped victim can also try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon, by doing *[15?]* hit points of damage to the clam's AC 15 interior.


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2010)

Lookin' good!

Added to Homebrews.

I think "Shell Trap" works slightly better than "Trap Shell", but I can't think of anything better right now.



> This creature can actually swim by making a butterfly movement with its shell. It can, by a sudden expulsion of water, jet backward, ramming an opponent within 30 feet for 1d10 points of damage.




Give it a jet like a giant squid, but add a slam attack rider?



> Sometimes a giant carnivorous scallop buries itself in a sandy ocean bottom to hide from predators or surprise prey. When the clam is concealed, opponents have a -5 penalty to their surprise rolls.




Increase the camouflage DC when buried in sand?


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Lookin' good!
> 
> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I think "Shell Trap" works slightly better than "Trap Shell", but I can't think of anything better right now.




Yes, I kept on swapping the two words around. "Shell Trap" is a bit better, so let's use that.



Shade said:


> Give it a jet like a giant squid, but add a slam attack rider?




Not necessary. I gave it a 15 ft. Swim speed so it could move 30 ft. and make a ram attack by making a Charge attack.



Shade said:


> Increase the camouflage DC when buried in sand?




I'd just fold it into camouflage, e.g.:

*Camouflage (Ex):* A giant carnivorous scallop often buries itself in the sand or mud of the ocean floor, and its rough shell is usually draped with barnacles, anemones, and bits of coral which help the shellfish blend in with its environment. Creatures must succeed on a DC [20 or 25?]  Spot check to notice a camouflaged giant scallop. Anyone with ranks in Survival or  Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice  the giant scallop.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I kept on swapping the two words around. "Shell Trap" is a bit better, so let's use that.




Yes, let's.  



Cleon said:


> Not necessary. I gave it a 15 ft. Swim speed so it could move 30 ft. and make a ram attack by making a Charge attack.




I suppose that could work, although I still fancy a ramjet.  



Cleon said:


> I'd just fold it into camouflage, e.g.:
> 
> *Camouflage (Ex):* A giant carnivorous scallop often buries itself in the sand or mud of the ocean floor, and its rough shell is usually draped with barnacles, anemones, and bits of coral which help the shellfish blend in with its environment. Creatures must succeed on a DC [20 or 25?]  Spot check to notice a camouflaged giant scallop. Anyone with ranks in Survival or  Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice  the giant scallop.




That'll work.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Sep 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> I suppose that could work, although I still fancy a ramjet.




Don't be silly, ramjets won't work underwater.

They're for the Flying Killer Rocket-Clam.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2010)

Well, we should certainly spell out the ramming strategy in the tactic section, at least.


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## Cleon (Sep 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, we should certainly spell out the ramming strategy in the tactic section, at least.




Be my guest.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2010)

Skills: 7
All in Spot?

Feats: 2
Improved Initiative, Power Attack?


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## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Skills: 7
> All in Spot?




I'd prefer 3 in Spot and 4 in Listen (or vica-versa).



Shade said:


> Feats: 2
> Improved Initiative, Power Attack?




Don't like Improved Initiative for them, what about Cleave or Reckless Offense?


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2010)

Either of those two feats (R.O. or Cleave) sound appropriate for these psycho scallops.  Reckless Offense would probably be better with the charge, though.

Spot and/or Listen or fine. 

I'd like to expand the tactics a little: 
A giant carnivorous scallop can swim by making a butterfly movement with its shell. The scallop prefers to hide using its camouflage ability, then surprises its prey with its paralyzing cloud.  When prey avoids the paralysis, it often releases a sudden expulsion of water, jetting backward and slamming its victim with great force as a charge attack.


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Either of those two feats (R.O. or Cleave) sound appropriate for these psycho scallops.  Reckless Offense would probably be better with the charge, though.
> 
> Spot and/or Listen or fine.
> 
> ...




I's put the butterfly swimming bit in the regular description and reword the tactics a bit, something like:

_A huge scalloped shellfish, at least as wide as a human is tall. Two rows of tiny blue eyes interspersed with short, thin tentacles peek from between its shells._

Giant carnivorous scallops are a dangerous shellfish with a rudimentary, animal intelligence. They can swim by making a butterfly movement with its shell, but spend most of their lives lying motionless while waiting for prey.

A typical giant carnivorous scallop has a shell 6 feet across and weighs 1500 pounds.

*Combat*
A giant carnivorous scallop lies camouflaged on the sea bed until a creature wanders close enough to attack. The scallop then releases a cloud of paralyzing poison and tries to tries to trap a victim in its shell. They can also charge up to 30 ft. to slam into an opponent with the sharp edges of their shell.


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

I dislike Cleave for 'em, but Reckless Offensive sounds appropriate.

I like Cleon's description and flavor text, but prefer freyar's tactics.

Updated.

I think they're finished, unless we want to work on a psionic underbar.


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> I dislike Cleave for 'em, but Reckless Offensive sounds appropriate.
> 
> I like Cleon's description and flavor text, but prefer freyar's tactics.
> 
> Updated.




In that case you might as well remove one of the "butterfly movement" swimming descriptions, e.g.:

_This huge scalloped shellfish is at least as wide as a human is tall.  Two rows of tiny blue eyes interspersed with short, thin tentacles peek  from between its shells._

Giant carnivorous scallops are a dangerous shellfish with a rudimentary,  animal intelligence. A giant carnivorous scallop can swim by making a butterfly movement with  its shell, but spends most of its life lying motionless while waiting  for prey.

A typical giant carnivorous scallop has a shell 6 feet across and weighs 1,500 pounds.

COMBAT

A giant carnivorous scallop prefers to hide using its camouflage ability,  then surprises its prey with its paralyzing cloud. When prey avoids the  paralysis, it often releases a sudden expulsion of water, jetting  backward and slamming its victim with great force as a charge attack.



Shade said:


> I think they're finished, unless we want to work on a psionic underbar.




I would quite like to do a psionic version, but I think it needs a full writeup so might be a separate creature rather than an underbar.

All we've got to work with it "Unconfirmed rumors suggest the possibility of intelligent, or even psionic clam and oyster colonies", so we can pretty much do what we like.

The big question is are the individual scallops psionic/intelligent or is the mind distributed among the entire colony? I fancy giving them a "collective mind" of some sort, maybe like the *Horde*.

As for their abilities, We could apply the *Phrenic Creature* template to a giant carnivorous scallop, boost the intelligence a little and maybe expand the PLAs. Maybe have them increase their PLAs according to the size/HD of the colony, so a small colony can only attack with _mind thrust_, but a large one can use _brain lock_ or _psionic domination_ on opponents?

What do you think?


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2010)

I was going to say that mostly just adding the phrenic template wouldn't require more than a mention, but perhaps doing a hive mind would be interesting.  But I think we could do this with an underbar.

*Psionic Carnivorous Scallop Colonies*
Some clusters of giant carnivorous scallops develop a hive mind similar to formians, gaining an Intelligence of X.  Furthermore, the cluster gains the phrenic creature template, using the total HD (or total number of scallops????) of the cluster as the effective HD of the creature for determining the psi-like abilities granted by the template.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> I was going to say that mostly just adding the phrenic template wouldn't require more than a mention, but perhaps doing a hive mind would be interesting.  But I think we could do this with an underbar.
> 
> *Psionic Carnivorous Scallop Colonies*
> Some clusters of giant carnivorous scallops develop a hive mind similar to formians, gaining an Intelligence of X.  Furthermore, the cluster gains the phrenic creature template, using the total HD (or total number of scallops????) of the cluster as the effective HD of the creature for determining the psi-like abilities granted by the template.




Yeah, I fancy this.  I'd rather not do a full-blown new creature.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I fancy this.  I'd rather not do a full-blown new creature.




Spoilsport. 

I was thinking of going a bit further than just a Phrenic template. Mainly I'd have their collective mind share one set of SLAs, and only one of the scallops would cast an SLA per round.

As for what those SLAs would be, I'm leaning towards giving them a HD-equivalent equal to either the clam with the largest HD or the number of clams in the collective, whichever is greater. That would beg the question of what happens when members of the collective are killed, though.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

Oy, you're getting into subsumed mind territory there!


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Oy, you're getting into subsumed mind territory there!




Yeah, I don't ever want to venture down that road again!   

It sounds like a Cleon Special (TM) is in the works...


Anyway, let's just filll in the x's in freyar's writeup and call it a day for the CC version.


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I don't ever want to venture down that road again!




Mossmutter flashbacks again? I feel your pain. 



Shade said:


> It sounds like a Cleon Special (TM) is in the works...




Now that gives me an idea...



Shade said:


> Anyway, let's just filll in the x's in freyar's writeup and call it a day for the CC version.




Okay then, we just need an Intelligence score, HD-equivalent for the Phrenic powers and a "Collective Mind" SQ.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

We've got this...

Hive Mind (Ex): All formians within 50 miles of their queen are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flatfooted, none of them are. No formian in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are.

...and this...

Hive Mind (Ex): Any hellwasp swarm with at least 1 hit point per Hit Die (or 12 hit points, for a standard hellwasp swarm) forms a hive mind, giving it an Intelligence of 6. When a hellwasp swarm is reduced below this hit point threshold, it becomes mindless.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

I had been thinking of the formian version, myself.  Maybe cut the 50 miles down to a few hundred feet, though.  For CR purposes, I think I'd make the total HD of the colony the effective HD of the phrenic creature and treat the colony as a single creature for CR purposes.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> I had been thinking of the formian version, myself.  Maybe cut the 50 miles down to a few hundred feet, though.  For CR purposes, I think I'd make the total HD of the colony the effective HD of the phrenic creature and treat the colony as a single creature for CR purposes.




Yes, but then you'd only need five 4-HD clams to max out its PLAs. That's why I preferred a HD/X approach.

Agree about treating it as a single creature for CR purposes.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2010)

Ok, each scallop counts as 1 or 2 HD?  I'm a little worried about having a huge number of hp for the appropriate CR, but maybe it will work.  I guess maybe if we get the base CR of the colony by the +2 CR for doubling the # of critters it will be ok.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, each scallop counts as 1 or 2 HD?  I'm a little worried about having a huge number of hp for the appropriate CR, but maybe it will work.  I guess maybe if we get the base CR of the colony by the +2 CR for doubling the # of critters it will be ok.




I think it's be easiest just using the number of shellfish instead of HD.

*No. -- Abilities
*1-2 -- 3/day—_defensive precognition_; 1/day—_force screen_
3-4 --  3/day—_empty mind_, _mind thrust_
5-6 --  1/day—_body adjustment_, _brain lock_
7-8 --  1/day—_aversion_, _psionic blast_
9-10 -  3/day—_intellect fortress_; 1/day—_psychic crush_
11-12 1/day—_psionic dominate_
13-14 1/day—_energy current_, _tower of iron will_
15-16 3/day—_psionic teleport_
17-18 1/day—_fission_
19-20 1/day—_ultrablast_

So if you've got 12 giant carnivorous scallops in the collective it can use _psionic dominate_.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> I dislike Cleave for 'em, but Reckless Offensive sounds appropriate.
> 
> I like Cleon's description and flavor text, but prefer freyar's tactics.
> 
> Updated.




I've just realized we forgot to put "Swim +13" in its skills.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I think it's be easiest just using the number of shellfish instead of HD.
> 
> *No. -- Abilities
> *1-2 -- 3/day—_defensive precognition_; 1/day—_force screen_
> ...



The problem is that 12 scallops will have 48 HD and a EL of 9 (+3 for the template).  Well, actually maybe that's ok.  Ok, that works for me.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

You guys have lost me, so I'll let you work out the underbar and just let me know when it's ready for publication.


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> The problem is that 12 scallops will have 48 HD and a EL of 9 (+3 for the template).  Well, actually maybe that's ok.  Ok, that works for me.




I'm thinking if we use the "number of scallops instead of HD" approach then the manifester level should also equal the number of scallops. That'll keep the CR/EL down to something reasonable.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2010)

How does this look?

Psionic Carnivorous Scallop Colonies
Some clusters of at least X giant carnivorous scallops develop a hive mind (see below), gaining an Intelligence of 6. Furthermore, the cluster gains the phrenic creature template, using the total number of scallops in the cluster as the effective HD of the creature for determining the psi-like abilities, manifester level, power resistance, and CR adjustment granted by the template.  To determine CR, calculate the EL for the number of scallops and then add the CR adjustment from the template.

Hive Mind (Ex): All scallops in a psionic colony within 100 ft of each other are in constant communication with each other. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flatfooted, none of them are. No scallop in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are.  This hive mind grants the scallops an Intelligence of 6 and the phrenic template as above; if the number of scallops in the colony falls below X, the hive mind is lost.




By the way, how on earth is a hive mind an Ex ability?????


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## Cleon (Sep 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> How does this look?
> 
> Psionic Carnivorous Scallop Colonies
> Some clusters of at least X giant carnivorous scallops develop a hive mind (see below), gaining an Intelligence of 6. Furthermore, the cluster gains the phrenic creature template, using the total number of scallops in the cluster as the effective HD of the creature for determining the psi-like abilities, manifester level, power resistance, and CR adjustment granted by the template.  To determine CR, calculate the EL for the number of scallops and then add the CR adjustment from the template.
> ...




That looks OK.



freyar said:


> By the way, how on earth is a hive mind an Ex ability?????




Pheromones I'd think, at least in the case of Formians.

It's chemical telepathy.


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## freyar (Sep 28, 2010)

Shade, care to weigh in?

Formian hive minds work over 50 miles.  I think pheromones aren't that strong of a scent.


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2010)

I envision their hive mind as psionic-based, and thus most likely a Su ability.


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## Cleon (Sep 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Shade, care to weigh in?
> 
> Formian hive minds work over 50 miles.  I think pheromones aren't that strong of a scent.




If only that were true. 

Well it could be anything really, for all we know formians have built in radios.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2010)

Ok, let's swap it to Su.  And, just to get this finished, how many scallops do we need for the hive mind?


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## Cleon (Oct 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, let's swap it to Su.  And, just to get this finished, how many scallops do we need for the hive mind?




Six? One for each point of their Int 6 Hive Mind. The Phrenic template doesn't increase the Intelligence of an animal-level (Int 1-2) sentient.


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Six? One for each point of their Int 6 Hive Mind. The Phrenic template doesn't increase the Intelligence of an animal-level (Int 1-2) sentient.



Works for me.  And then Shade can update homebrews and finish this off!


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Works for me.  And then Shade can update homebrews and finish this off!




Really?  You're not just teasing me now, are you?  

*Two weeks* for an underbar!  

Updated.


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Really?  You're not just teasing me now, are you?
> 
> *Two weeks* for an underbar!
> 
> Updated.




I think it'll do.

Now to unveil my own interpretation of the Psychoclam...


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2010)

*Master Clam (Psychic Killer Scallop) [Homebrew]*
Large Aberration (Aquatic, Psionic)
*Hit Dice:* 6d8+18 (45 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), swim 15 ft.
*Armor Class:* 19 (-1 size, +0 Dex, +10 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 19
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +4/+12
*Attack:* Tentacle +7 melee (1d4+4 plus paralysis) or slam +7 melee (1d10+4)
*Full Attack:* 4 tentacles +7 melee (1d4+4 plus paralysis) or slam +8 melee (1d10+4)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tentacles)
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, paralyzing cloud, paralysis, psi-like abilities, psipearl, shell trap, subsume bivalve
*Special Qualities:* Blindsight 30 ft., camouflage, immunity to mind-affecting effects, naturally psionic, power resistance 16, scent, telepathy 100 ft.
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +8
*Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 14
*Skills:* Concentration +11, Listen +12, Spot +12, Swim +12
*Feats:* Combat Manifestation, Improved Initiative, Psicrystal Affinity (B), Psionic Body
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or collective (1 plus 3-18 subsumed giant bivalves) or hive (1 plus 6-18 subsumed giant bivalves plus 1-30 non-subsumed giant bivalves)
*Challenge Rating:* 5 (CR 7 with 4-6 subsumed 4HD giant carnivorous scallops)
*Treasure:* 50% standard plus psipearl
*Alignment:* Usually neutral
*Advancement:* 7–11 HD (Large); 12-18 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_This enormous shellfish is at least as wide as a human is tall. Two rows of tiny blue eyes interspersed with short, thin tentacles peek from between its shells._

From the outside, a master clam looks like an ordinary giant clam or carnivorous scallop, but inside its shell is a tentacled horror with a vast, multi-lobed brain. Master clams are actually a parasitic lifeform that use giant shellfish as hosts, then use that body to subsume other giant shellfish into becoming extensions of their own will. The master clam parasites have no mouth, they nourish themselves by absorbing life-force from their host and other bivalves in their thrall. The parasite starts life as a Fine-sized larva that looks like a cross between a deformed octopus and a tadpole, these larvae must find a giant bivalve or die. If it finds a suitable host, a larva burrows inside it and transforms the unfortunate shellfish into a master clam.

Master clams spend most of their lives lying motionless while waiting for prey, but can swim by making a butterfly movement with its shell. Some can even fly telekinetically. They are ruthlessly territorial and try to kill and eat any psionic creature that trespasses into their territory. Master clams may negotiate with non-psionic beings, however. These creatures are completely amoral, their only interests are their own survival, nourishment and reproduction — in that order.

Some intelligent psionic monsters consider the flesh of master clams a great delicacy. Aboleths and certain subterranean aberrations may pay a hefty bounty to eat a master clam, preferably one that’s still alive.

A typical master clam has a shell 6 feet across and weighs 1,500 pounds. They can communicate telepathically with any creature that has a language.

*COMBAT*
Master clams prefer to hide and use their psi-like abilities and subsumed giant shellfish as their weapons of first resort. They prefer to attack and talk through one of their subsumed shellfish, usually the largest among them, and may pretend this clam is the “leader” or “heart” of the collective, while the master clam itself masquerades as an ordinary giant shellfish. If discovered, they will also fight with their paralysing cloud and tentacles.

A master clam employs its spell-like abilities cunningly. It usually casts _biofeedback_ before battle commences to give itself and its subsumed shellfish damage reduction, and uses _psionic charm_ or _entangling ectoplasm_ to try to capture prey. if that fails it attacks opponents directly with _ego whip_ or _mind thrust_ while directing its subsumed shellfish into melee. They reserve _body adjustment_ and _force screen_ for their own security. Master clams may hold off casting _force screen_ until they're personally threatened, to avoid giving away their position. If their body adjustment heals more hit points than the master clam has taken damage they can transfer the excess to heal the wounds of their subsumed shellfish.

Some master clams use their psipearls to spy on other creatures and manipulate them into their clutches. Others simply use them as bait, gleaming enticingly from the open shell of the false “leader” shellfish.

While a master clam shows little concern for the lives of its subsumed shellfish, it will quickly flee or barter if its own life is threatened.

*Blindsight (Ex):* Master clams can ascertain all foes within 30 feet using vibration.

*Camouflage (Ex):* A master clam often buries itself in the sand or mud of the ocean floor, and its rough shell is usually draped with barnacles, anemones, and bits of coral which help the shellfish blend in with its environment. Creatures must succeed on a DC 25 Spot check to notice a master clam. Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the clam.

*Naturally Psionic:* A master clam gains 1 bonus power point.

*Paralysis (Ex):* Those hit by a master clam's tentacle attack must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Paralyzing Cloud (Ex):* Once per day, a master clam can release a cloud of chemicals in a 10-foot spread (15-foot for a Huge clam). All living creatures within this cloud must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. Creatures with immunity to poison or paralysis are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison or paralysis receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. A _delay poison_, _neutralize poison_ or _remove paralysis_ spell removes the effect from a paralyzed creature. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Power Resistance (Ex):* A master clam has power resistance equal to its Hit Dice +10.

*Psi-Like Abilities (Ex):* At-will—_detect psionics_, _empathy_; 3/day—_psionic charm_ (affects 1 aberration, animal, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid or outsider, DC15), _entangling ectoplasm_ (up to Huge target), _mind thrust_ (6d10 damage, DC15); 1/day—_biofeedback_ (DR 3/–), _body adjustment_ (3d12 hp healing), _brain lock_ (1 animal, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast or monstrous humanoid is dazed and unable to take psionic actions, DC14), _ego whip_ (1d4 Cha, DC14 for half), _force screen_ (+5 shield bonus, one shellfish only). Manifester level is equal to the master clam’s HD. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*Psipearl:* All master clams produce a psipearl, a pearl of incredible size and lustre. This pearl has all the properties of a psicrystal except that it can not contain personality fragments, with the master clam’s racial hit dice count as levels in a psionic class for determining the psipearl’s psicrystal powers. A psipearl has a 30 ft. swim speed as well as a normal psicrystal’s movement modes. In addition, so long as the pearl is within a mile of the master clam, the psipearl has all the master clam’s special qualities and feats as well as sharing its abilities as if it were a subsumed shellfish. If the psipearl moves outside that range, the master clam always knows which direction the psipearl lies in, as long as both are on the same plane of existence. The psipearl does not count against the number of giant shellfish a master clam can subsume.

A psipearl is a gem with a value equal to the treasure value of the master clam’s Challenge Rating (1600 gp for a typical CR 5 master clam).

*Shell Trap (Ex):* As a standard action, a master clam can attempt to trap any creature within reach up to one size larger than itself. The target can make an attack of opportunity against the clam, but if it does so it is not entitled to a saving throw. An opponent that does not attempt an attack of opportunity must succeed on a DC 17 Reflex save or be trapped. Immobilized creatures, including those affected by the clam's paralyzing cloud, are not entitled to a saving throw. The save DC is Strength-based.

If the trapped opponent is smaller than the clam, they are drawn inside the clam's stomach, where they take 1d4+4 bludgeoning damage plus 1d4 acid damage per round. If the opponent is the same size as the master clam or one size larger, the clam uses the razor-sharp edges of its shell to saw at the trapped opponent, automatically inflicting 1d6+6 points of bludgeoning and slashing damage per round.

A master clam can be forced to release a trapped opponent by succeeding at an opposed Strength check against the clam's Strength check (the clam gets a +4 racial bonus on this Strength check). A trapped victim can also try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon, by doing 15 hit points of damage to the clam's AC 15 interior.

*Subsume Shellfish (Ex):* A master clam can subsume the body and mind of any giant shellfish with an Intelligence score less than 2. To perform this subsumption process takes 1 minute and an unresisting victim — the master clam usually uses its paralysing tentacles on the shellfish it seeks to subsume. If the process is interrupted, the master clam must restart it afresh. A master clam can subsume as many giant shellfish as it has hit dice, once it reaches this limit the master clam can not subsume another shellfish without increasing its hit dice or removing a subsumed shellfish, usually by killing the weakest member of its collective. The _psychic chirurgery_ psionic power can restore a subsumed shellfish to its normal state, as can a _limited wish_, _wish_ or _miracle_ spell.

Once subsumed, the giant shellfish becomes an extension of the master clam as long as both molluscs remain alive. The master clam can simultaneously see through the senses of all its subsumed shellfish as well as its host, direct all their attacks, and it may cast its own Psi-Like Abilities from any shellfish in its collective. The subsumed shellfish have full access to the master clam’s power resistance, feats and skill ranks. Furthermore, the subsumed shellfish uses the master clam’s mental ability scores and Will save instead of their own. Any psi-like ability a master clam uses on itself will affect all its subsumed shellfish unless their description specifies otherwise —just as if the master clam and its subsumed shellfish were a single creature (which in many respects they are).

All shellfish in the collective are in constant communication with each other. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flatfooted, none of them are. No shellfish in a master clam’s collective (subsumed or master) is considered flanked unless all of them are.

The subsumption link has a range of 100 feet per hit dice of the master clam. Should a subsumed shellfish move outside this range, it loses all the benefits of subsumption and is unable to do anything besides wander randomly until it expires or re-enters the subsumption range of its master.

*Skills:* A master clam has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*Advanced Master Clams*
As a master clam increases its racial hit dice it gains additional powers as follows:

*9 Hit Dice Master Clam*
A 9 HD master clam has Intelligence 14 and Charisma 15 (this includes ability increases from advancing its HD). Its psi-like abilities improve as follows. Typical feats and skills are also given:

A 15 HD master clam gains Psionic Meditation as a bonus feat. If it already has that feat it can substitute it for another psionic feat.

*Skills:* Bluff +8, Concentration +14, Diplomacy +10, Listen +15, Spot +15, Swim +12
*Feats:* Combat Manifestation, Fleet of Mind, Improved Initiative, Psicrystal Affinity (B), Psionic Body, Psionic Meditation (B)

*Psi-Like Abilities (Ex):* At-will—_detect psionics_, _empathy_; 3/day—_aversion_ (DC17), _entangling ectoplasm_ (up to Colossal target), _intellect fortress_ (3 rounds), _mind thrust_ (9d10 damage, DC17), _psionic charm_ (affects 1 aberration, animal, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider, DC17); 2/day—_ego whip_ (2d4 Cha, DC16 for half), _force screen_ (+6 shield bonus, one shellfish only), _psionic levitate_ (master clam only); 1/day—_biofeedback_ (DR 4/–), _body adjustment_ (5d12 hp healing), _brain lock_ (1 aberration, animal, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid or outsider is dazed and unable to take psionic actions, DC17), _psionic blast_ (3 rounds stun, DC15), _psionic fly_ (master clam only). Manifester level is equal to the master clam’s HD. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*12 Hit Dice Master Clam*
A 12 HD master clam is Large-sized. As well as the normal changes for its size increase, it has Intelligence 15 and Charisma 16 (this includes ability increases from advancing its HD). Its psi-like abilities improve as follows. Typical feats and skills are also given:

*Skills:* Bluff +11, Concentration +18, Diplomacy +13, Listen +18, Spot +18, Swim +16
*Feats:* Combat Manifestation, Fleet of Mind, Improved Initiative, Psicrystal Affinity (B), Psionic Body, Psionic Fist, Psionic Meditation (B)

*Psi-Like Abilities (Ex):* At-will—_detect psionics_, _read thoughts_; 3/day—_aversion_ (DC19), _brain lock_ (1 aberration, animal, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid or outsider is dazed and unable to take psionic actions, DC19), _ego whip_ (3d4 Cha, DC19 for half), _entangling ectoplasm_ (up to Colossal target), _force screen_ (+6 shield bonus, one shellfish only), _mind thrust_ (12d10 damage, DC21), _psionic charm_ (affects 1 aberration, animal, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid or outsider, DC19), _psionic levitate_ (master clam only); 2/day—_biofeedback_ (DR 5/–), _body adjustment_ (6d12 hp healing), _intellect fortress_ (6 rounds), _psionic fly_ (master clam only); 1/day—_psionic blast_ (4 rounds stun, DC16), _psionic dominate_ (affects 1 aberration, animal, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid or outsider, DC19), _psionic teleport_, _psychic crush_ (DC19). Manifester level is equal to the master clam’s HD. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*15 Hit Dice Master Clam*
A 15 HD master clam is Large-sized. As well as the normal changes for its size increase, it has Intelligence 16 and Charisma 17 (this includes ability increases from advancing its HD). Its psi-like abilities improve as follows. Typical feats and skills are also given:

A 15 HD master clam gains Psicrystal Containment as a bonus feat. If it already has that feat it can substitute it for another psionic feat.

*Skills:* Bluff +22, Concentration +22, Diplomacy +22, Listen +21, Spot +21, Swim +16
*Feats:* Combat Manifestation, Fleet of Mind, Improved Initiative, Psicrystal Affinity (B), Psicrystal Containment (B), Psionic Body, Psionic Fist, Psionic Meditation (B), Unavoidable Strike

*Psi-Like Abilities (Ex):* At-will—_detect psionics_, _psionic levitate_ (master clam only), _read thoughts_; 3/day—_aversion_ (DC21), _body adjustment_ (8d12 hp healing), _brain lock_ (1 aberration, animal, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid or outsider is dazed and unable to take psionic actions, DC21), _ego whip_ (4d4 Cha, DC21 for half), _entangling ectoplasm_ (up to Colossal target), _force screen_ (+7 shield bonus, one shellfish only), _intellect fortress_ (9 rounds), _mind thrust_ (15d10 damage, DC21), _psionic charm_ (affects 1 aberration, animal, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid or outsider, DC21),_ psionic fly_ (master clam only); 2/day—_biofeedback_ (DR 6/–), _psionic dominate_ (affects 1 aberration, animal, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid or outsider, DC21), _psionic teleport;_ 1/day—_energy current_ (15d6, 3 targets, DC 21), _insanity_ (2 targets, DC21), _psionic blast_ (6 rounds stun, DC16), _psychic crush_ (DC21). Manifester level is equal to the master clam’s HD. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*Subsumed Giant Carnivorous Scallop (for basic 6 HD Master Clam)*
Large Magical Beast (Aquatic, Psionic)
*Hit Dice:* 4d10+14 (36 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), swim 15 ft.
*Armor Class:* 16 (-1 size, -3 Dex, +10 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +4/+13
*Attack:* Slam +8 melee (1d10+5)
*Full Attack:* Slam +8 melee (1d10+5)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Paralyzing cloud, shell trap, psi-like abilities
*Special Qualities:* Blindsight 30 ft., camouflage, immunity to mind-affecting effects, power resistance 16, scent
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +8
*Abilities:* Str 20, Dex 5, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 14
*Skills:* Concentration +11, Listen +12, Spot +12, Swim +13
*Feats:* Combat Manifestation (B), Improved Initiative (B), Power Attack, Psicrystal Affinity (B), Psionic Body (B), Reckless Offensive
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or collective (1 plus 3-18 subsumed giant bivalves) or hive (1 plus 6-18 subsumed giant bivalves plus 1-30 non-subsumed giant bivalves)
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* 50% standard
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 5–8 HD (Large); 9-12 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Psipearl (for basic 6 HD Master Clam)*
Diminutive Construct
*Hit Dice:* 6d10 (22 hp)
*Initiative:* +2 [_+6 when in range_]
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.*, swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 16 (+4 size, +2 Dex*), touch 16, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-17
*Attack:* —
*Full Attack:* —
*Space/Reach:* 1 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Deliver touch attacks [_Psi-like abilities when in range_]
*Special Qualities:* construct traits, hardness 8, psicrystal granted abilities, (deliver touch attacks, improved evasion, personality, self-propulsion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link, telepathic speech)
[_Blindsight 30 ft., camouflage, construct traits, hardness 8, immunity to mind-affecting effects, naturally psionic, power resistance 16, psicrystal granted abilities, (deliver touch attacks, improved evasion, personality, self-propulsion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link, telepathic speech), scent, telepathy 100 ft. when in range_]
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +8
*Abilities:* Str 1*, Dex 15*, Con –, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10
[_Str 1*, Dex 15*, Con –, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 14 when in range_]
*Skills:* Climb +14*, Concentration +9, Listen +9, Move Silently +6, Search +3, Spot +9, Swim +10
[_Climb +14*, Concentration +9, Listen +12, Move Silently +6, Search +5, Spot +12, Swim +10 when in range_]
*Feats:* Alertness
[_Alertness, Combat Manifestation (B), Improved Initiative (B), Psicrystal Affinity (B), Psionic Body (B) when in range_]
*Environment:* Any
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* Included with master clam
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* As master clam
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

The psipearl gains additional abilities whenever it is within a mile of its master clam.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

Scary!


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Scary!




Yes, it's fearsome what I can come up with when I have too much spare time on my hands and the idea "what would a mind flayer be like if it were a shellfish".


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## freyar (Oct 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Really?  You're not just teasing me now, are you?
> 
> *Two weeks* for an underbar!
> 
> Updated.



Well, we were busy.


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## Cleon (Oct 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, we were busy.




Yes, we don't spend our entire lives on these boards you know, it just feels that way sometimes.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

*Mouse, Giant:*  AC:7 MV:9 HD:12 hp:56 #AT:1 Dmg:2-12 SA:Trample (4-16) SD: Digs AL:N THAC0:9 

This creature is 20 feet long and is scavenging for roots, berries and seeds. It should appear to menace the party in its curiosity, but retains the demeanor of mice of normal size, scurrying about and over everything.

Originally appeared in Adventure Pack I (1987).


We can probably just advance our dire mouse to Huge, and tweak as needed.


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2010)

*Giant Mouse Working Draft*



Shade said:


> We can probably just advance our dire mouse to Huge, and tweak as needed.




Seems reasonable. Advancing the dire mouse works out something like this (assuming we keep the dire SQ and increase the HD by four and the bite damage 1 step to match the original):

*Giant Mouse*
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+60 (114 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+25
Attack: Bite +15 melee (2d6+12)
Full Attack: Bite +15 melee (2d6+12)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Gnaw?, improved Grab
Special Qualities: Dire, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +9
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: 15
Feats: 5
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or family (5–20)
Challenge Rating: 5?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 13-18 HD (Huge); 19-36 HD (Gargantuan) 
Level Adjustment: —

Skills: Giant mice have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, and Swim checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

Not bad!  Do we want to give them trample or some other "not very mouselike" size-appropriate ability?


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## Cleon (Oct 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> Not bad!  Do we want to give them trample or some other "not very mouselike" size-appropriate ability?




Well mice don't have hooves or hard feet, so I don't see them as trampling foes. 

Maybe they seize opponents with their rather hand-like paws and chew them up, like a fieldmouse would a cricket or pumpkin seed?

i.e. Improved Grab.


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

I can go for that.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> I can go for that.




*Updated*.

Since mice have such hard teeth, how about adding a variation on the Gnawing special attack I came up with for the Goat-Demon?



> *Inexorable Gnawing (Ex):* A goat demon can chew its way  through almost anything with its powerful jaws and teeth. As a standard  action, the goat demon can deal 2d6+3 damage to any immobile object,  including victims of its paralysis attack and opponents the goat demon  has grappled and pinned. Inexorable gnawing ignores damage reduction and  hardness of less than 10.




Something like...

*Inexorable Gnawing (Ex):* A giant mouse can chew its way  through almost anything with its incredibly hard teeth, dealing 3d6+16 damage to any immobile object. It can also gnaw an opponent for the same damage with a successful grapple check.

Inexorable gnawing ignores damage reduction and  hardness of less than 10.


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2010)

How about a "store in cheeks" kind of ability instead of swallow whole?  Or the chewing one; I think we've called that "gnaw" before.

Edit: since Cleon got a ninja attack in there: I don't really like inexorable gnawing too much, but I do like the regular gnaw by biting on a grapple check.  Maybe I could see adding a "hard teeth" SQ to ignore a little hardness, up to 5 maybe.  These aren't supernatural.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2010)

Wow...spontaneous gnawing inspiration!

I'll go for the strong teeth, but nothing supernatural, and the "store in cheeks"/gnaw.


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## Cleon (Nov 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about a "store in cheeks" kind of ability instead of swallow whole?  Or the chewing one; I think we've called that "gnaw" before.
> 
> Edit: since Cleon got a ninja attack in there: I don't really like inexorable gnawing too much, but I do like the regular gnaw by biting on a grapple check.  Maybe I could see adding a "hard teeth" SQ to ignore a little hardness, up to 5 maybe.  These aren't supernatural.




I remember using Gnaw for my Otyugh Redux, and I'm fine with using just regular gnaw sans the armour-piercing.

Shall we keep the 3d6+16 damage or is that too much?

As for the "cheek pouches" I don't think they should be usable in combat - as far as I know mice only carry harmless food in their cheeks, not live prey.

I'd just add a bit in the background text that they can store items in their cheeks.


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## Shade (Nov 5, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Let's just stick with "automatic bite damage" for the gnaw.

I'd recommend we reconsider trample, since the original had it:



> SA:Trample (4-16)




Also, it has "SD: Digs", which implies either a burrow speed or something like the tunnel ability.


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## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Let's just stick with "automatic bite damage" for the gnaw.
> 
> ...




How could I have missed that!

Okay then, in that case I'll yield on Trample.

3d6 damage?



Shade said:


> Also, it has "SD: Digs", which implies either a burrow speed or something like the tunnel ability.




...or it lives in student accommodation. 

Does it give any explanation in the AP1 as to what the "Dig" SD means? Can it burrow quickly into the dirt like an aardvark?


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2010)

The original trample damage looks like 4d4, but 3d6 is ok by me.

As for "digs," a burrow speed is probably sufficient, but a tunneling ability as well could explain how they make their nests.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> The original trample damage looks like 4d4, but 3d6 is ok by me.
> 
> As for "digs," a burrow speed is probably sufficient, but a tunneling ability as well could explain how they make their nests.




I concur with all of that.


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> The original trample damage looks like 4d4, but 3d6 is ok by me.




4d4 just looked an odd set of dice for a 3E trample attack, which normally use pretty big dice (d8s to d12s), so I changed it to the next closest number.

How about 2d8 or 2d10 instead? That's pretty close to the average damage and I prefer the wider spread.



freyar said:


> As for "digs," a burrow speed is probably sufficient, but a tunneling ability as well could explain how they make their nests.




It wouldn't feel right to make them any good as burrowers, so how about giving it a 5 ft. burrow speed and note that it can only dig through soil?


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2010)

Cleon said:


> 4d4 just looked an odd set of dice for a 3E trample attack, which normally use pretty big dice (d8s to d12s), so I changed it to the next closest number.
> 
> How about 2d8 or 2d10 instead? That's pretty close to the average damage and I prefer the wider spread.




That works for me.  Let's go with 2d10.



Cleon said:


> It wouldn't feel right to make them any good as burrowers, so how about giving it a 5 ft. burrow speed and note that it can only dig through soil?




The note is unnecessary:



			
				Monster Manual said:
			
		

> Burrow: A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.


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## Cleon (Nov 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> That works for me.  Let's go with 2d10.




2d10 it is then!



Shade said:


> The note is unnecessary:




You know me, I often prefer a "belt and braces" approach.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2010)

Updated.

I'm wondering if we shouldn't give it a "slip through tight spaces" ability, as well, since mice are notorious for being able to flatten their skeletons to slip through tight areas.


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## Cleon (Nov 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I'm wondering if we shouldn't give it a "slip through tight spaces" ability, as well, since mice are notorious for being able to flatten their skeletons to slip through tight areas.




I wouldn't bother. The official stats for mice & rats can't do it.

Besides, a mouse the size of an elephant likely needs a more solidly built skeleton than a regular-sized one.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2010)

Well, I've seen mice dig through wood to nest, so I'm not sure their burrow speed needs to be that slow.  But I'm not going to press the issue.

I think Cleon's right about the squeezing bit, unfortunately.  It would've been fun.

Split ranks between Hide, Listen, Spot (at 5 each)?


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## Cleon (Nov 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Looking at its stats, it should have a +0 Dex bonus from its Dex 11.

Would you like to drop the Initiative to +0 and make the AC 15 (-2 size, +7 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15?

I remember thinking of proposing a Dex increase to 13, which is probably why there's a +1 Dex in Initiative and AC, but I didn't follow through. If you prefer a higher Dex its Reflex save needs to be +9.

Also, I don't much like its trample doing more damage than its bite. Can we just use 1*Str mod. in trample, for 2d10+8. That way its bite and trample have the same average damage.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't mind which way on Dex.

Trample damage is "supposed" to be slam damage plus 1-1/2 Str per the SRD, but of course there are many critters with no slam but trample.  If there's a precedent, I don't mind using just Str; otherwise, perhaps we can just reduce the base trample damage some.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> I don't mind which way on Dex.
> 
> Trample damage is "supposed" to be slam damage plus 1-1/2 Str per the SRD, but of course there are many critters with no slam but trample.  If there's a precedent, I don't mind using just Str; otherwise, perhaps we can just reduce the base trample damage some.




The SRD writeup of trample also says "The creature's descriptive text gives the exact amount", so we just need to list a non-standard "exact amount" of damage.

*Astral Constructs* do 1d8 + Str with the trample attack in their "Option B" menu.

The *Elder Treant* has an 8d20+40 damage trample but only has a +19 Strength bonus. That's plus 2.06 times its Strength bonus!


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm fine with the nonstandard trample damage, and would like to bump Dex to 13.

Updated.

Are we keeping them timid, or making them aggressive?  That will factor into the feat selection greatly.  I think I'd prefer them as simply "mice of unusual size".


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2010)

Timid sounds right to me, too.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2010)

In that case...

Skills: 15
Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot?

Feats: 5
Alertness, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Run, Stealthy?

Having seen mice run, I wanted to give it Fleet of Foot, but it's Dex is too low.  Bonus feat?


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2010)

Maybe Jump, too, if they're anything like pet rodents I've seen.  Frankly, though, I could see the skills you have with Hide at 6 and the rest at 3.

Make it a bonus feat and keep the others as listed.  Sure.


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Are we keeping them timid, or making them aggressive?  That will factor into the feat selection greatly.  I think I'd prefer them as simply "mice of unusual size".




Mice can be quite pugnacious towards each other, and they aren't timid about creatures a lot smaller than them.

A Giant Mouse would likely view an average PC like a regular mouse would a juicy little insect...


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> In that case...
> 
> Skills: 15
> Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot?
> ...




I'd give them Skill Focus (Hide) instead of either Lightning Reflexes or Run.

Wouldn't bother about Fleet of Foot. A mouse the size of an elephant oughtn't to be as good as ducking-and-dodging as a regulation-sized miniscule mouse.



freyar said:


> Maybe Jump, too, if they're anything like pet rodents I've seen.  Frankly, though, I could see the skills you have with Hide at 6 and the rest at 3.
> 
> Make it a bonus feat and keep the others as listed.  Sure.




I'd prefer a racial bonus on Jump.

Actually, checking their current Homebrew they already have +8 to Jump, which gives them Jump +20 with their Str and speed bonuses. I think that's plenty.

Do we want any changes to their racial bonuses? It's currently "+4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, and Swim checks".

I'd swap the Hide and Move Silently:

*Skills:* Giant mice have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks and a +8 racial  bonus on Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, and Swim checks. They can  always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

That's all fine.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 5?

A giant mouse is 20 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> That's all fine.




OK, if the skills and feats are OK by Shade that just leaves confirming the CR and a weight.

They look more like a CR6 to me - the Trample special attack tips the balance, methinks.

According to my notes from a Field Guide To The Mammals Of Britain & Europe, a house mouse (_Mus musculus_ or _domesticus_) has a body 60-100 mm long and weighs 10-25g, while a harvest mouse (_Micromus minutus_) is 3.5-13g for a 50-78mm bodylength.

The 20 foot long body of the Giant Mouse equals 6100 mm, which scales up to somewhere around 6000 kg from those weights.

Call it 12,000 to 15,000 pounds?


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2010)

Looks like it.


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's a similar one from the same source...

*Rat, Gigantic*
AC:7 MV:12//6 HD:1 hp:8 #AT:1 Dmg:2-6 SA: Disease SD:Nil AL:N(E) THAC0:19 

Originally appeared in Adventure Pack I (1987).


That's it...all we have to go on.   As it stands, its just a dire rat and we can skip it.   I'd recommend we take the name and run with it, making a truly gigantic rat.  Dire rats only advance to Medium, but I'm thinking Huge or bigger for it to truly be "gigantic".


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 23, 2010)

It could also be bigger than the giant mouse.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2010)

I think Huge like the giant mouse but heftier (in dimensions/weight and probably HD) and with a higher advancement range.


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think Huge like the giant mouse but heftier (in dimensions/weight and probably HD) and with a higher advancement range.




I disagree. The SRD Rat is Tiny while the official stats for a Mouse say its Fine.

Therefore, I'd go for Gargantuan for a Titanic Rat.


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




The Giant Mouse looks good.

Getting back to the Titanic Rat, we could just use the MM2 Titanic Creature template on a Dire Rat and it'd probably do.

Alternatively, I suggested over on the Mystaran Gargantua thread doing a Rat as a sample creature, we could use that (although a Titanic Dire Rat would probably be a better match to the Giant Mouse than a Mystaran Gargantua Rat would be).

Better still, let's do both and compare them!


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I disagree. The SRD Rat is Tiny while the official stats for a Mouse say its Fine.
> 
> Therefore, I'd go for Gargantuan for a Titanic Rat.




On second thought, the Giant Mouse we did was inspired by the Small-sized Dire Mouse homebrew we did, not the Fine-sized mundane mouse, so I'm OK with the Titanic Rat being Huge.



Cleon said:


> The Giant Mouse looks good.
> 
> Getting back to the Titanic Rat, we could just use the MM2 Titanic Creature template on a Dire Rat and it'd probably do.
> 
> ...




And I've gone and done it. Here's the SRD Rat and Dire Rat with those templates applied. Out of the four, I think the Mystaran Gargantue Dire Rat is closest to what I was thinking of for the Titanic Rat.

*Titanic Rat **[SRD plus Monster Manual 2 Titanic Template]*
Gargantuan Animal
*Hit Dice:* 25d8+200 (312 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.
*Armor Class:* 26 (-4 size, +20 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 26
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +18/+43
*Attack:* Bite +27 melee (3d8+19)
*Full Attack:* Bite +27 melee (3d8+19)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Trample 3d8+19
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +22, Ref +14, Will +15
*Abilities:* Str 36, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Balance +8, Climb +23, Hide -6, Move Silently +8, Swim +21
*Feats:* Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Any
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or cluster (3–5)
*Challenge Rating:* 13
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

These omnivorous rodents thrive almost anywhere.

*COMBAT*
Rats usually run away. They bite only as a last resort.

*Trample (Ex):* As a standard action during its turn each round, a titanic rat can trample a Huge or smaller opponent. This attack deals 3d8+19 points of bludgeoning damage. A trampled opponent can attempt either an attack of opportunity at a –4 penalty or a Reflex save (DC 35) for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills:* Rats have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, and Swim checks. A rat can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A rat uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its Strength modifier for Climb and Swim checks. A rat has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


*Titanic Dire Rat **[SRD plus Monster Manual 2 Titanic Template]*
Gargantuan Animal (Dire)
*Hit Dice:* 25d8+225 (337 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 26 (-4 size, +20 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 26
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +18/+45
*Attack:* Bite +29 melee (3d8+22)
*Full Attack:* Bite +29 melee (3d8+22)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Disease, trample 3d8+22
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +23, Ref +14, Will +15
*Abilities:* Str 40, Dex 11, Con 28, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Climb +23, Hide -11, Listen +4, Move Silently +1, Spot +4, Swim +23
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Any
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or cluster (3–5)
*Challenge Rating:* 13
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

Titanic dire rats are omnivorous scavengers, but will attack to defend their nests and territories.

A titanic dire rat can grow to be up to 64 feet long and weigh over 200,000 pounds.

*COMBAT*
Dire rat packs attack fearlessly, biting and chewing with their sharp incisors.

*Disease (Ex):* Filth fever—bite, Fortitude DC 31, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Trample (Ex):* As a standard action during its turn each round, a titanic dire rat can trample a Huge or smaller opponent. This attack deals 3d8+22 points of bludgeoning damage. A trampled opponent can attempt either an attack of opportunity at a –4 penalty or a Reflex save (DC 37) for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills:* Titanic dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks. Titanic dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.

Titanic dire rats can use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Swim checks.


*Mystaran Gargantua Rat **[Homebrew]*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 8d8+24 (60 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 30 ft., swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 11 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 10
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+19
*Attack:* Bite +10 melee (2d6+7)
*Full Attack:* Bite +10 melee (2d6+7)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Trample 2d8+7
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 20, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Balance +9, Climb +15, Hide +3, Listen +5, Move Silently +10, Spot +5, Swim +13
*Feats:* Alertness, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Any
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 5
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

These omnivorous rodents thrive almost anywhere.

*COMBAT*
Rats usually run away. They bite only as a last resort.

*Trample (Ex):* As a standard action during its turn each round, a Mystaran gargantua rat can trample a Large or smaller opponent. This attack deals 2d8+7 points of bludgeoning damage. A trampled opponent can attempt either an attack of opportunity at a –4 penalty or a Reflex save (DC 19) for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills:* Rats have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, and Swim checks. A rat can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A rat uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its Strength modifier for Climb and Swim checks. A rat has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


*Mystaran Gargantua Dire Rat **[Homebrew]*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 12d8+72 (126 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 80 ft. (16 squares), climb 40 ft.
*Armor Class:* 16 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +9/+27
*Attack:* Bite +18 melee (3d6+15/19-20 plus disease)
*Full Attack:* Bite +18 melee (3d6+15/19-20 plus disease)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Disease, trample 2d8+15
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +9
*Abilities:* Str 30, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Climb +18, Hide +4, Listen +6, Move Silently +5, Spot +6, Swim +18
*Feats:* Alertness, Improved Critical (bite), Power Attack, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Any
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 6
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 13-24 HD (Huge); 25-48 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

Mystaran gargantua dire rats are omnivorous scavengers, but will attack to defend their nests and territories.

A Mystaran gargantua dire rat can grow to be up to 32 feet long and weigh over 32000 pounds.

*COMBAT*
Mystaran gargantua dire rats attack fearlessly, biting and chewing with their sharp incisors.

*Disease (Ex):* Filth fever—bite, Fortitude DC 32, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3+1d6 Dex and 1d3+1d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Trample (Ex):* As a standard action during its turn each round, a Mystaran gargantua dire rat can trample a Large or smaller opponent. This attack deals 2d8+15 points of bludgeoning damage. A trampled opponent can attempt either an attack of opportunity at a –4 penalty or a Reflex save (DC 26) for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills:* Dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks. Dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.

Dire rats use their Dexterity modifier for Climb and Swim checks.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2010)

Gonna take me a while to go through those stats.

I find it funny that a regular rat is listed as Tiny and not Diminutive anyway.  Tiny is over 1 ft long, and most rats aren't quite that big if you don't count the tail.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Gonna take me a while to go through those stats.
> 
> I find it funny that a regular rat is listed as Tiny and not Diminutive anyway.  Tiny is over 1 ft long, and most rats aren't quite that big if you don't count the tail.




Yes, I'd have made rats Diminutive if I was writing the 3E rules. Maybe they did it so weapons did half damage to Rat Swarms?


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## freyar (Nov 29, 2010)

Quite possibly.

So, what are your thoughts on the giant rat?  Mix and match from the above 4 options?


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> So, what are your thoughts on the giant rat?  Mix and match from the above 4 options?




That would be my preference.  I'd rather not have them straight-template samples and keep 'em unique (like the mouse).  DMs can use the templates themselves.


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2010)

Str 30, Dex 13, Con 26, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2?


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> That would be my preference.  I'd rather not have them straight-template samples and keep 'em unique (like the mouse).  DMs can use the templates themselves.




Ok, so how about taking the Mystaran Dire Rat, increasing the HD a bit (to, say, 16 HD?) and giving it the giant mouse's improved grab and gnaw SAs?

The speed ought to be similar to the Giant Mouse, except it has a Swim speed.

I'll also give it Int 2, since rats are not stupid animals.

That'd look something like this:

*Titanic Rat*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 16d8+96 (168 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft., swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 16 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+30
*Attack:* Bite +21 melee (3d6+15/19-20 plus disease)
*Full Attack:* Bite +21 melee (3d6+15/19-20 plus disease)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Disease, gnaw, improved grab, trample 2d8+15
*Special Qualities:* Dire, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +13
*Abilities:* Str 30, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Climb +18, Hide +4, Listen +6, Move Silently +5, Spot +6, Swim +18
*Feats:* Alertness, Improved Critical (bite), Power Attack, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Any
*Organization:* Solitary or pack (5-10)
*Challenge Rating:* 7
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 17-24 HD (Huge); 25-48 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

Titanic rats are omnivorous scavengers, but will attack to defend their nests and territories.

A typical titanic rat is 30 feet long and weighs about 30,000 pounds.

*COMBAT*
Titanic rats attack fearlessly, biting and chewing with their sharp incisors.

*Disease (Ex):*  Filth fever—bite, Fortitude DC 24, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 2d4 Dex and 2d4 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Dire (Ex):* A titanic rat is considered to be a dire animal for the purposes of saving throws.

*Gnaw (Ex):* A titanic rat deals automatic bite damage every round it maintains a grapple.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a titanic rat must hit with a bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

*Trample (Ex):*  As a standard action during its turn each round, a titanic rat can trample a Large or smaller opponent. This attack deals  2d8+15 points of bludgeoning damage. A trampled opponent can attempt  either an attack of opportunity at a –4 penalty or a Reflex save (DC 28)  for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills:* Titanic rats have a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks. Titanic rats have a +8  racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb  checks, even if rushed or threatened.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2010)

That looks like a good start.  I'd also like to add one or two of the abilities of the dire vulture to it, since they seem a good fit:

Resistant to Disease (Ex): A dire vulture has a cast-iron stomach. It has a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves to resist normal diseases, but not supernatural or magical diseases such as mummy rot.

Considering where they hang out, this seems a good fit, too:

Stench (Ex): Scraps of rotting flesh cling to a dire vulture's feathers, and the fetid wind of its wings can fell even the hardiest opponent. A creature within 20 feet of a dire vulture must succeed on a DC 20 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6 rounds. A creature that successfully saves can't be affected by that dire vulture's stench ability for 24 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Rather than "scraps of rotting flesh", it could be "bits of offal, carrion, and refuse".


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2010)

I rather like those abilities.

But aren't these giant rats, not titanic rats?


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2010)

Per the original writeup, they are "Gigantic Rats".

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> That looks like a good start.  I'd also like to add one or two of the abilities of the dire vulture to it, since they seem a good fit:
> 
> Resistant to Disease (Ex): A dire vulture has a cast-iron stomach. It has a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves to resist normal diseases, but not supernatural or magical diseases such as mummy rot.
> 
> ...




I like Resistance to Disease but not Stench. They'd need an awfully large sewer to get covered in filth!


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## Mortis (Dec 1, 2010)

Cleon said:


> They'd need an awfully large sewer to get covered in filth!



Yeah but one just a bit smaller than their body, so they can squeeze through it and clean it like a loo brush 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I like Resistance to Disease but not Stench. They'd need an awfully large sewer to get covered in filth!




In a fantasy world, it isn't too difficult to imagine.  They might crawl through a dragon's "outhouse tunnel", for example.

Are we ready for the next creature?


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2010)

Ready enough, these were simple.


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## Cleon (Dec 4, 2010)

Shade said:


> In a fantasy world, it isn't too difficult to imagine.  They might crawl through a dragon's "outhouse tunnel", for example.



I don't know that I like your big smelly rat, but it's OK I suppose. 


Shade said:


> Are we ready for the next creature?




Well there's a trifling little error in the description...

"_This massive *mouse* is more than thrice as long as a man is tall._"

Also the rat's 10 feet longer than the mouse so the "thrice as long" needs changing. We could also emphasize their "big smelly rattiness"...

A _gigantic rat, five times longer than a man is tall. Its fur is matted with filth so reeking it could make a half-orc retch.
_


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## Cleon (Dec 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




I'm wondering whether we should give the Gigantic Rat's trample a ×1 Str modifier like we did the Giant Mouse, for 2d8+10 damage, instead of the current ×1½ [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]Str mod.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2010)

Updated with the revised description and lower Str mod for trample.

Rather than "half-orc", you could have gone with "otyugh", though.


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## lordxaviar (Dec 6, 2010)

*finnally getting involved...  Leeches*

put these up a few places...but like the way you all get together and adjust things... so have a look

*CR*: 1/10; 
*Sz:* Fine Vermin; ; *HD*: 2d8-2; *H         p*: 7 for swarm or 1 hp each;
*Init:* +1; *
Spd*: 1' Swim 10’; *
AC*: 19 (+1 Dex, +8 size), *T*: 19, *FF*: 18; *
BaB*: +1; *Grap:* N/A; *
Atk*: +1 melee (1d4-3 touch plus blood drain); *F
ull Atk:*  ; *Spc/Rch:* 5"x5"; *
SA*: Attach, Anticoagulant salivary juices, Blood Drain, Panic; 
SQ: Tremor-sense;; *
SQ*: ; ; *AL*: N; *
Sv*: *F*: +3, *R*: +1, *W*: 0; *
Abil: S*: 1/-5, *D*: 12/+1, *C*: 10/0, *I: -*/-, *W*: 10/0, *Ch*: 1/-5; *
Weapro: ;* *Skills*: Hide +18; *
Feats*: Weap Finesse (bite); 
*Equip: *; *Loot: *; *Possess: *; *Holdings: *;* Treas:* None (but captured & kept alive 80 of them will fetch 1gp;;*Tactics: *;* RPGL: *;* Descrip: *;* History:* ;
*Envir: *widespread in marine waters and exist in freshwater and on land in temperate & tropical region; Org: Solitary or plague (2–4 swarms); *Org:* ; * Adv:* ; *Lv Adj: ;* *Exp:* 
 Leeches are carnivorous or bloodsucking worms, used widely used by barbers, wise women and other non-magical healers for bloodletting and cleaning wounds. Leeches are flattened ringed worms, from 0.2" to 18" long, with a sucking disk at both ends. Blood ingested by leeches is mixed with salivary juices containing an anticoagulant substance, which can be extracted and used as a serious contact poison that prevents blood clotting Leeches are hermaphroditic and typically lay their eggs in mucous cases known as cocoons.  They have a rubbery outer skin and appear brownish black and blend in well with the rotting vegetation and muck in which they dwell. 
  
(*DM Tip*_: _Take note of the PCs’ Spot checks and AC before running an encounter with a leech swarm. Record damage dealt by undetected leeches, but do not inform the player of the damage until his or her character notices the attack.) 
 *Combat:*  Normal leeches don’t attack, so much as feed. They attach to various parts of the body (even getting under clothes) and upon reaching the skin excrete slightly anesthetizing mucus which allows them to bite without being detected.  They must be seen to be noticed, but than can be easily removed or killed. Falling on the ground, moving through dense wet foliage, or any sort of stagnant water will give leeches the opportunity to attack, each person getting 1d20 on their person. Leeches will suck blood at 1/8 hit point per round, to a max of 2 hit points, when they are sated, but will not detach voluntarily and will not feed again for a week.  If the victim looses 5 or more hit points, they will feel fatigue and wish to rest right then. 10 or more and they will want to sleep.  
 *Anesthetizing mucus (Ex):* Leeches have an anesthetic enzyme in their saliva that prevents creatures from feeling its bite. Creatures in the water that are bitten by a leech must make a Spot check, (opposed by the swarms Hide check) Each round of blood drain entitles the creature to another Spot check to notice the leeches, with a cumulative +2 bonus on the check per round after the first. Characters attacked in clear water, or who have some means of detecting the leech swarm without seeing it, notice the attack automatically. 
 *Attach (Ex):* If a leech hits an opponent with its touch attack, it has latched on with its suckered mouth and remains attached. An attached leech loses it Dexterity bonus and negates its size bonus to AC (it is AC 10 while attached). 
 *Blood Drain (Ex):* Any living creature damaged by a leech swarm also takes 1 point of Constitution damage as the swarm drains its blood. This damage repeats every round thereafter unless the creature successfully exits the swarm and spends a full-round action removing leeches from its body. 
 *Panic:* Once the victim notices or is told about them, they make a DC 15  Will Sv or begin ripping off all armor and clothing to remove the parasites. A failed save less than 5 will mean they used a dagger and ruined the armor and clothing in the panic to remove it.  
 *Tremor-sense (Ex):* Leeches in the water can automatically detect the presence of anything within 30 feet that is also in contact with the water. 
 *Poison:* DC 15 Initial damage 1d6 Con, Secondary damage additional 2hp per round blood loss from wound (edged weapons only). Normal healing will lessen the loss to .5 hp per round. It will last 5 rounds if not magically healed, or treated with garlic. It cannot be allowed to dry or it looses all its properties, thus making it unusable on traps. 
 *Skills:* A leech swarm has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## lordxaviar (Dec 6, 2010)

*Giant leech for comparison*

*CR:* ½; *Sz: *Sm Vermin, *H*: 2 to 3’ long Up to 5’, *W*: ; *Age:* ;* HD:* 1d8+1 *Hp:* 5; *Init*: +2; *Spd:* 5', swim 10'; *AC:* 13 (+1 Size, +2 Dex); *T*: 11, *FF*: 11; *BaB*: 0; *Grap:* ; *Atk*:; *Full Atk:* *Att*: +1 melee (1d6-3 Touch); *Spc/Rch:* 5'x5'/5'; *SA*: anesthetizing mucus, Attach, blood drain, disease; *SQ:* Tremor-sense; *Lang:* ; *AL:* N; *Sv: F:* +3, *R:* +1, *W:* +0; *Abil:* *S: *4/-3, *D:* 14/+2, *C:* 12/+1, *I: *-/, *W:* 10/0, *Ch:* 2/-4; *Skills:* Hide +13, Swim +6; *Feats:* Weap Finesse (bite):* Equip: *; *Loot: *; *Possess: *; *Holdings: *;* Treas:* None;; *Tactics: *Leeches wait in the mud and slime for prey to pass by. Generally, there will be some larger leeches (of greater HD) in any given group;* RPGL: *;* Descrip: *Giant leeches are horrid, slug-like creatures that dwell in wet, slimy areas and suck the blood of warm-blooded creatures. Their skin is a mottled brown and tan with an occasional shade of grey. Leeches have a sucking disk at both ends and can attack in either of two directions. Once attached the other side will go dormant.;* History:* ; *Envir: *widespread in marine waters and exist in freshwater and on land in temperate & tropical region; *Org:* Cluster (2-5) or swarm (4-16); *Lv Advance:* 2-4 HD (Sm); 5-6 HD (Med); *Exp:* 
*Attach (Ex):* If a leech hits an opponent with its touch attack, it has latched on with its suckered mouth and remains attached. An attached leech loses it Dexterity bonus to AC (it is AC 10 while attached).
*Anesthetizing mucus (Ex):* A leech has an anesthetic enzyme in its saliva that prevents warm-blooded creatures from feeling its bite. Creatures in the water that are bitten by a leech must make a Spot check (DC 33) or a Wilderness Lore check (DC 20) to notice being bitten.
*Blood drain (Ex):* A giant leech drains blood, doing 1d3 points of temporary Con damage each round that it remains attached. Once it has drained 4 points of Con, it releases its hold and swims off to digest its meal. 
*Disease (Ex):* Swamp fever - bite, Fort save (DC 11), incubation period 1d4 days; damage 1d3 temporary Con.
*Tremor-sense (Ex):* Leeches in the water can automatically detect the presence of anything within 30 feet that is also in contact with the water. 
*Notes: *(From “The Ecology of the Giant Leech DR 123 p 50-52
*1.* Leeches (both the small variety of our world and the giant variety of AD&D® game worlds) are segmented worms. The posterior and anterior segments of leeches are modified into suction disks. The posterior disk is larger and is used only to hold the leech in place against rocks and the like. The smaller anterior disk contains the leech’s mouth, which is equipped with three jaws of teeth which make a clean, Y-shaped incision.
       A leech’s saliva contains an anesthetic; because of this, a leech bite is painless and almost always goes unnoticed. This viscous saliva acts immediately upon contact with the victim’s skin, and is only removed by alcohol, ether, or similar liquids. Additionally, leech saliva contains an anticoagulant (hirudin) and a substance which enlarges the blood vessels in the area of the bite (a vasodilator, in medical terms) for increased blood flow. Some leech saliva even contains a substance which dissolves pre-existing blood clots. 
       Due to these anticoagulants, blood continues to flow from a leech bite much longer than from a normal wound. Characters bitten by a leech lose blood at the rate of 1-4 hp per melee round for l-12 rounds after the leech is removed (or until the wound is bound). Clerical healing spells negate this excessive blood loss, as may other actions at the DM’s discretion. As an example, some swamp-dwelling races commonly use spider webs to help
  clot leech bites. In addition to anticoagulants and vasodilators, a leech’s saliva contains antibiotics, so leech bites rarely become infected. It is suggested that the Monster Manual section dealing with increased chance of disease from leech bites be disregarded, and that leech bites should be treated as any other wound for chances of infection.
*2.* Not all leech species are blood-sucking parasites. Many are predacious species which feed on other animals, and many parasitic species eat other animals on occasion. Some leech species also eat carrion. Leeches typically rest attached to plants and other underwater objects, waiting for prey to pass by. Extremely sensitive to vibrations, leeches become restless and attempt to locate the source of the vibrations by stretching and waving their anterior disk through the water. A leech may thrive for months on a single meal. Once sated, a leech typically finds a sheltered place and stays relatively inactive for a time. A well-fed leech cannot be induced to feed again for weeks. It has long been known that blood in a leech’s digestive tract does not coagulate. his knowledge may be exploited by some evil forces in the AD&D® game world to keep blood used in ceremonial liquids for
  a longer duration 
*3.* A leech’s eyes typically consist of groups of light receptive cells (ocelli) which register light intensity but cannot see images. Leeches often react when light conditions change, such as when a shadow is cast by a passing boat, fish, or a wading person. Receptor cells on the leech’s skin are sensitive to slight amounts of certain chemicals. This keen sense of ‘smell’ allows leeches to home in on substances or organisms attractive to the leech or to avoid those which may be harmful.
*4.* Leeches have two main modes of locomotion. The most common is an ‘inchworm’ movement, by which the leech stretches forward and attaches its anterior disk, then moves the posterior disk forward and attaches it in turn. This method is slow (3/round) but very efficient. A leech can climb any vertical or overhanging surface in this manner, although it generally avoids those that are potentially harmful (such as one covered with thorns or salt). Additionally, a leech may swim very rapidly (12 /round) by employing vertical undulations, but it will not attack prey in this manner.
  Leeches do not bite in self-defense. If attacked while unattached, a leech tries to escape as soon as it is wounded. An escaping leech swims away or attempts to crawl into a protective tangle. Since leeches are invertebrates, a relatively large leech can crawl through a very small space. 
*5.* While attached to prey, leeches are very unresponsive to outside stimuli. Salt, ashes, or other dehydrating substances cause them to release their hold quickly, as will an open flame. An attached leech which is slain continues to draw blood at the normal rate for an additional 1d4 rounds.
*6.* Leeches are hermaphroditic, but they cannot fertilize their own eggs. Eggs may be laid in protective cocoons attached to underwater rocks or logs, or buried in the bottom ooze. Some species of leech carry their eggs in membranous sacs on their underside. In such cases, the young live for a time attached to the parent’s ventral surface, although they gain no nourishment from the parent in this manner. 
*[FONT=&quot]7.[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] Leeches are very sensitive to traces of metals in the water. Copper in their water always proves fatal to captive leeches. Additionally, captive leeches must be provided with a rock or other rough surface to rub against, in order to slough off old skin.[/FONT]


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## lordxaviar (Dec 6, 2010)

sorry if i got large here, the giant leech post is one that i altered before they put them out.  I think they got it wrong... I am working on a post on Giant ants as well they really didnt get them right.. (that will be in a new thread...)


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2010)

lordxaviar said:


> sorry if i got large here, the giant leech post is one that i altered before they put them out.  I think they got it wrong...




Not bad, not bad. Am I wrong to think that you share my preference the more detailed AD&D versions of most of these monsters?

I like the "Panic" special attack, although the DC may be a bit high.

The formatting is rather idiosyncratic (e.g. 3E always uses inches or feet/ft. instead of ' or ".)

Swarms do auto-damage in melee, so it shouldn't have a melee attack modifier in the attack line, or a Strength modifier, so it should just have "Swarm (1d4)" or maybe "Swarm (1d6)" for its attack. (Also, even if it did have a Strength penalty its 1 Strength would give it 1d4-5 damage, not 1d4-3).

Its got "anticoagulant salivary juices" listed in SA but no such SA under combat, I'm thinking you meant to swap it for "Anesthetizing mucus" and "poison".



lordxaviar said:


> I am working on a post on Giant ants as well they really didnt get them right.. (that will be in a new thread...)




That's a curious coincidence. I happened to be my own retread of the Giant Ant last month, after reading the SRD version and thinking they were all wrong. It'll be interesting to see how your take differs from mine...


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated with the revised description and lower Str mod for trample.
> 
> Rather than "half-orc", you could have gone with "otyugh", though.




They're not _*that*_ smelly.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2010)

Here's the next one.  This should help when we deal with our Gargantua carp.  


*Carp, Giant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical, subtropical, and temperate fresh water
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or school
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: Sw18
HIT DICE: 8-12
THAC0: 8 HD: 13 11 HD: 9
9HD:11 12 HD: 9
10 HD: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallow whole
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (20’-30’ long)
MORALE: Average (9)
XP VALUE: 8 HD: 3,000 11 HD: 6,000
9 HD: 4,000 12 HD: 7,000
10 HD 5,000

The giant carp is a game fish favored by many races. It lives in all types of freshwater lakes and rivers.

A relative of the goldfish, the giant carp has golden scales evenly covering its plump body. The scales of some varieties are shiny enough to resemble tiny mirrors, while the scales of others are extremely thin, and look more like yellowish skin. The giant carp has a single, broad dorsal fin centered on its back. A wide caudal fin, which extends from its thickly muscled tail, helps propel the fish through the water. Its paired pectoral and pelvic fins are often shredded or gone entirely, owing to the carp’s tendency to poke among sharp rocks in search of food.

Combat: Giant carp are usually docile, harmless creatures. However, some have reportedly surfaced to attack small boats or swimmers. Others allegedly have taken the bait of a simple fishhook, much to the fisherman’s surprise. If the carp are feeding, they will attack any creature who disturbs them. Females are especially touchy when spawning.

Giant carp attack by biting, inflicting 2-20 (2d10) hit points of damage with their sharp, curved teeth. Additionally, if an attack causes 12 or more hit points of damage, the carp may swallow its victim whole. The carp’s ability to swallow large victims increases with its Hit Dice: at 8 HD, it can swallow a victim the size of a dog; at 9 HD, a large dog or colt; at 10 HD, a small man; at 11 HD, a normal-sized man; at 12 HD, a small ogre or oni.

Victims who have been swallowed suffer normal damage from the attack. Each round thereafter, they suffer 1 hit point of damage from the carp’s digestive juices. A swallowed victim also has a 5% cumulative chance per round of suffocating.

To escape from the carp’s stomach, a swallowed victim can cut his way free if he has a sharp-edged weapon. He also may be rescued by someone cutting or tearing at the carp from outside. When the carp has lost 50% of its hit points from such attempts, the victim can break free. A character on the inside suffers no penalty when making these attacks. Rescuers on the outside make attacks with a -2 penalty to their chance to hit, because they are attempting to aim a series of blows at the same area. Thrusting and stabbing weapons have a 20% chance of striking the swallowed victim.

Habitat/Society: A giant carp has no lair as such. It spends most of its time scavenging for food on the oozy bottom of a lake or river, and seldom strays far from the area in which it was born.

A female carp lays thousands of eggs when spawning, though the vast majority of these are never fertilized. A carp becomes sexually mature between 10 and 20 years of age, and lives about 50 years.

Ecology: Giant carp eat any decayed matter they find in the muck and ooze. In addition, they swallow the eggs of other species of fish, as well as the fish themselves. Giant carp also feed on worms, weeds, frogs, snakes, crabs, and plankton.

Peoples of many races enjoy eating giant carp. A single fish can supply the needs of a village for quite some time. In spite of the dangers, the hunt for giant carp is often considered worth the risk, and fishermen sometimes organize expeditions specifically for catching these creatures. Giant carp can be eaten fresh or smoked.

In many places in Kara-Tur, the giant carp is considered a symbol of wealth, owing to the creature’s golden scales. It also symbolizes perseverance, since the fish stubbornly persists in its chosen niche regardless of adversity. Wealthy nobles sometimes build tanks or pools in the courtyards of their temples, specifically for keeping giant carp. The nobles believe the fish will protect their fortunes.

Some primitive tribes believe a mystic link exists between particular species of fish, such as giant carp, and particular species of birds, such as peacocks and ravens, since both types of creatures lay eggs and both are associated with foretelling the future. These tribes believe that during certain times of the year, giant carp
acquire the ability to breathe air. Though these rumors persist, no evidence of flying carp has been verified.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Kara-Tur Appendix (1990).


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2010)

Sounds pretty straightforward: bite with imp grab and swallow whole.  The bit about attacking boats makes me think about adding capsize (maybe) or some kind of "boat slam" attack, though.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2010)

Huge?

Here are some other big fish for ability score ideas:

Ramfish (L): Str 21, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 5
Dire Barracuda (L): Str 19, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Bichir (L): Str 17, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Giant Anglerfish (L): Str 20, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 2
Giant Viperfish (H): Str 28, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 2


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## lordxaviar (Dec 9, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Not bad, not bad. Am I wrong to think that you share my preference the more detailed AD&D versions of most of these monsters?
> 
> The formatting is rather idiosyncratic (e.g. 3E always uses inches or feet/ft. instead of ' or ".)
> 
> ...




well i went to use an update as I am running two very novice players... (they didnt know how to deal with green slime! most amusing more on that later)  
but the new ants are 6' long? omg... how silly...  I am trying to dig out the article on bugs from dragon,,,  found it...
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=5398373#post5398373


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Huge?
> 
> Here are some other big fish for ability score ideas:
> 
> ...



Let's go with Huge.  Because the bite damage is fairly high (2-20), I'd suggest a reasonably high Str there.  Maybe go for something similar to the viperfish?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2010)

Sounds good.  Just borrow them wholly?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2010)

Why not change it up a little, maybe Str 26, Dex 12, Con 21?


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2010)

Ah yes, I happened to read the MC6 Giant Carp last month while homebrewing a conversion of the MC2 Giant Catfish. The two have pretty similar stats, except the Catfish is a bit smaller and has poison spines.

I reckoned the Giant Catfish is Huge in 3E, so the Carp should be too. These fish are BIG. 20 to 30 feet is the size of a basking shark so they likely weigh between 4 and 15 tons.



freyar said:


> Why not change it up a little, maybe Str 26, Dex 12, Con 21?




I'd increase the Strength and drop the Dex, since (a) they're massive and (b) normal-sized Carp are fairly sluggish fish, and a giant version is likely to be slower.

Str 29, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 4 ?


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## freyar (Dec 13, 2010)

That works too.

And I think we'd already settled on Huge.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2010)

That's fine, but why the higher Cha?

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2010)

Maybe Cleon just finds koi very attractive!


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's fine, but why the higher Cha?




Obviously it's because of its golden scales, all adventurers are attracted to *gold*.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2010)

Unless there's a real reason, let's drop back to the usual Cha 1 of fish.

Skills: 11

Feats: 3


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2010)

Seems like Spot and Listen for the skills.  Split evenly?  No great ideas on the feats ATM.


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Unless there's a real reason, let's drop back to the usual Cha 1 of fish.




But... but... that _*was*_ my real reason. Look at the *gold*! Isn't it shiny and pretty! 

Still, I don't mind giving them the standard fish Charisma.



Shade said:


> Skills: 11




I agree with the Listen/Spot division freyar proposed.

6 in Listen, 5 in Spot?



Shade said:


> Feats: 3




How about Diehard, Endurance, Power Attack?


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2010)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2010)

Well, they're a lot like the whales but not as good.  CR 4, 5 at most.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, they're a lot like the whales but not as good.  CR 4, 5 at most.




I'd go CR 5. They're pretty close to an Orca statwise.

How about increasing the natural armour? Carp have pretty sturdy scales. A +8 natural armour might be more appropriate.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

Let's go with the greater natural armor to help justify that CR 5.

Updated.

A giant carp is 20 or more feet long and weighs at least x pounds.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2010)

Well, a female orca (in real life) is about that length and 3 to 4 tons, so how about saying 3.5 tons?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2010)

It works for me.  Cleon?


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> It works for me.  Cleon?




Hmm.

A bit of googling found a Fresh Water Fish Weight Estimator which gives a weight around 4000 pounds for a 20 foot carp.

A big carp is up to 4 feet long and weighs 30 pounds or more, multiply that by 125 and you get 3750 pounds - call it 4000 pounds, the minimum standard weight for Huge creatures.

That seems rather low, but bear in mind that wild carp tend to be lot slimmer than the domestic variety (they haven't been fattened up, for a start) and there's a lot of variability in the weight.

For example, a really _massive_ carp is 4+ feet and 80+ pounds, which extrapolates to about 10000 pounds for a 20-footer.

According to this *thesis* on Silver Carp hatcheries, an average silver carp is 48.2cm long and weighs 1.6 kg. That's equivalent to a 7000 pound 20-foot carp. Alternatively, we could base the weights on a *Koi*. A 3 foot Koi is about 30 pounds, which would make a 20 foot one about 8,500 pounds.

Both the previous examples are probably a lot plumper than a wild carp would be, though.

So, 7000 pounds seems within reasonable bounds for a 20 foot carp, depending on how stocky it is, but so would 4000+ or 5000+ pounds.

I'll leave it to you two to decide.

EDIT: Frankly, anywhere between 4000 and 10000 pounds would suit me.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> EDIT: Frankly, anywhere between 4000 and 10000 pounds would suit me.




Let's just go with that.  

Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's just go with that.




My estimated weights were for a 20 foot carp, not one "20 or more feet long".

I prefer "Most giant carp are 20 to 30 feet long and weigh between 4,000 and 30,000 pounds, but they can grow even bigger than that." That keeps the original's 20-30' range.



Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Nope.

You didn't think I'd miss the fact its Swallow Whole has an awful lot of x's did you?



> Swallow Whole (Ex): A giant carp can try to swallow a grabbed opponent  of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once  inside, the opponent takes xdx+x points of crushing damage plus x  points of acid damage per round from the carp's gizzard. A swallowed  creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing  weapon to deal x points of damage to the gizzard (AC 13). Once the  creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed  opponent must cut its own way out. A Huge carp's interior can hold x  Large, x Medium, x Small, x Tiny, or x Diminutive or smaller opponents.



The MC6 Giant Carp had 8-12 HD and could swallow victims up to the size of a dog (for an 8HD Carp) to an oni (for a 12 HD Carp).

In 3E terms that's a "Max Swallow Size" from from Small to Large. I suggest reducing the Swallow Whole to 2 sizes smaller than itself and allowing it to advance a size.

Revising...*Advancement:* 9-15 (Huge); 16-24 HD (Gargantuan)

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* A giant carp can try to swallow a grabbed opponent  up to 2 size categories smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once  inside, the opponent takes 2d8+9 points of crushing damage plus 8  points of acid damage per round from the carp's gizzard. A swallowed  creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing  weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 14). Once the  creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed  opponent must cut its own way out. A Huge carp's interior can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.​Finally, the "no evidence of flying carp" bit of *In Kara-Tur* doesn't make much sense, since there's no earlier mention of flying carp (it's the same in the original text). I suggest changing it to:Some primitive tribes believe a mystic link exists between particular  species of fish, such as giant carp, and particular species of birds,  such as peacocks and ravens, since both types of creatures lay eggs and  both are associated with foretelling the future. These tribes believe  that during certain times of the year, giant carp acquire the ability to *fly and*  breathe air. Though these rumors persist, no evidence of flying carp  has been verified.​


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> You didn't think I'd miss the fact its Swallow Whole has an awful lot of x's did you?




Actually, I didn't think *I* would miss them.  

That's why we keep you on the virtual payroll.  

Everything else you suggested looks good.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Dec 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Actually, I didn't think *I* would miss them.
> 
> That's why we keep you on the virtual payroll.




Worth every virtual penny.



Shade said:


> Everything else you suggested looks good.
> 
> Updated.




They look finished then.


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## freyar (Dec 29, 2010)

Yup, all done.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yup, all done.




Do you prefer your Giant Carp baked or steamed?


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

*Porcupine*
Black Brown Giant 
Climate/Terrain: Temperate/Forest Temperate/Forest Temperate/Forest 
Frequency: Common Common Uncommon 
Organization: Family Family Family 
Activity Cycle: Night Night Night 
Diet: Herbivore Herbivore Herbivore 
Intelligence: Animal (1) Animal (1) Animal (1) 
Treasure: Nil Nil Nil 
Alignment: Nil Nil Nil 
No. Appearing: 1-2 1-2 1-2 
Armor Class: 6 6 5 
Movement: 9, Cl 2 9, Cl 2 6 
Hit Dice: ½ ½ 6 
THAC0: 20 20 13 
No. of Attacks: 1 1 1 
Damage/Attack: 1-3 1-4 2-8 
Special Attacks: Nil Nil Shoot quills 
Special Defenses: Quills Quills Quills 
Magic Resistance: Nil Nil Nil 
Size: S (2½-3’ long) S (2’ long) L (7’ long) 
Morale: Unreliable (2) Unreliable (2) Unsteady (7) 
XP Value: 15 15 650 

Porcupines are large rodents native to temperate forested areas. There are many species of porcupines that differ only in minor details. Porcupines are timid, panic-prone creatures with one very nasty defense mechanism – stiff, sharp hairs known as quills.

There are two distinct families of porcupine: black and brown. Brown porcupines are the smaller of the two, about two feet long, but with quills that grow up to one foot long. The black porcupine is between 2½ and three feet long with a thick muscular tail, but has shorter quills (three inches long). Porcupines weigh between 35 and 50 pounds.

Combat: Contrary to some popular legends, a common (black or brown) porcupine doesn’t throw its quills, but it can readily detach them when they strike an enemy. These herbivores do not attack unless they feel threatened, and even then only when they cannot safely run away. Porcupines smash an attacker with their tails, dislodging quills. Black porcupines inflict 1-3 points of damage with their barbed quills, while the longer quills of the brown porcupines cause 1d4 points of damage. Creatures that try to touch a porcupine automatically suffer damage from their quills. Because of their overlapping barbs, porcupine quills are extremely difficult to remove, and cause painful swelling.

Habitat/Society: Porcupines live in heavily wooded areas. They are excellent tree climbers. They are not anti-social creatures, but seem to prefer a mate and young for their only company.

Ecology: Porcupines feed on the bark and leaves of trees; their appetite has sometimes killed the trees on which they feed. They also feed on fruits and are especially fond of salt. Few creatures attack the porcupine. There are no known potions or spells that use porcupine components.

*Giant Porcupine*
Giant porcupines are larger versions of the common woodland porcupines. They are identical in appearance to their smaller cousins, the brown porcupines, except that the white streaks of their quills are more obvious. They inhabit wooded areas. They are stupid and nonaggressive, but can defend themselves.

A giant porcupine can bite for 2d4 points of damage, but uses this attack in only the most desperate defense (if it is brought down to less than half its hit points). Its main defense is its ability to shoot 1d8 quills from its tail, each of which inflicts 1d4 points of damage. This attack has a range of 30 feet. As its quills are up to three feet long, any attacker that comes within six feet of the giant porcupine receives 1d4 quills from the porcupine’s defensive movements. There are over 80 quills in its tail and over 300 in its body.

The giant porcupine views any approach within 30 feet as a threat. If a creature approaches it at that distance, it croucches in a defensive posture and issues a warning hiss, giving the creature one round to leave before it attacks. As with normal porcupines, there are no known uses for giant porcupine components.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Two (1989).

Giant Porcupine originally appeared in Monster Manual (1977).


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2011)

We might as well do the Brown and Black as a single creature since they're so similar.

If 3E can't be bothered to have separate entries for African and Indian elephants, I don't see why we need separate stats for the two smaller Porcupines.

Then we can just "Dire Beast" the regular animal for the Giant version.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2011)

That works for me.

Here's a similar critter we can mine for ideas...

Monster Mayhem: Quillflinger


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2011)

Well, I'd essentially lift these two abilities:

Quills (Ex): Melee combat with a quillflinger is dangerous. Unless opponents are using weapons with at least 10-foot reach, the quillflinger strikes each melee opponent with 1d4 quills. If the opponent succeeds at a Reflex save (DC 16), the quills that strike do not break off in his or her flesh. A quill that lodges in the skin imposes a -1 circumstance penalty to attacks, saves, and checks. Removing a quill inflicts 1d6 points of additional damage to the victim.

Hunker Down (Ex): If the quillflinger is threatened in melee, and if it cannot retreat to a safe distance from its opponent(s), it curls its head and legs under its torso while on the ground and flares its quills in all directions. In this defensive position, the Reflex save DC required for melee attacks against it increases to 17.

Sound about right?


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, I'd essentially lift these two abilities:
> 
> Quills (Ex): Melee combat with a quillflinger is dangerous. Unless opponents are using weapons with at least 10-foot reach, the quillflinger strikes each melee opponent with 1d4 quills. If the opponent succeeds at a Reflex save (DC 16), the quills that strike do not break off in his or her flesh. A quill that lodges in the skin imposes a -1 circumstance penalty to attacks, saves, and checks. Removing a quill inflicts 1d6 points of additional damage to the victim.
> 
> ...




About right. I'd like a cap to the quill penalty (minus 4?) and give the "Hunker Down" more than a +1 bonus.

Also, shouldn't we allow a Heal check to avoid the damage when removing a quill?

*Quills (Ex):* Melee combat with a porcupine is dangerous. An opponent who attacks a porcupine with a melee weapon that does not have Reach must succeed at a DC X Reflex save or be struck by 1d4 quills. Each quill does 1 point of piercing damage and lodges in the opponent's flesh, imposing a -1 circumstance penalty to attacks, saves, and checks per quill (maximum -4 penalty). Removing a quill inflicts 1 point of additional damage to the victim unless a DC Z Heal check is made. The save DC is Constitution?-based.

* Hunker Down (Ex):* If a porcupine is threatened in melee and  cannot retreat to a safe distance from its opponent(s), it curls its  head and legs under its torso while on the ground and flares its quills  in all directions. In this defensive position, the Reflex save DC of its quills special attack gains a +2 bonus (increasing it to X for a typical porcupine), but the porcupine's speed is reduced to Z ft. and it cannot charge or run.


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2011)

Con-based makes sense, and I'd probably make it a DC 15 Heal check.  

Can a rolled up porcupine move at all?


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Con-based makes sense, and I'd probably make it a DC 15 Heal check.
> 
> Can a rolled up porcupine move at all?




Porcupines don't roll up, that's hedgehogs.

A "hunkered down" porcupine can and does move, they usually do so to keep their quills pointed towards whatever creature(s) they see as a threat.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Porcupines don't roll up, that's hedgehogs.




In fact, they can roll super-fast, even supersonic, and have an affinity for golden rings.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2011)

Maybe we should drop the Hunker Down ability, then...

You know there's a gene in human DNA named sonic hedgehog, right?


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Maybe we should drop the Hunker Down ability, then...




That may be a good idea.



freyar said:


> You know there's a gene in human DNA named sonic hedgehog, right?




   I suppose a Mario gene also exists?


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## Cleon (Jan 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> In fact, they can roll super-fast, even supersonic, and have an affinity for golden rings.




Bah. Epic level hedgehog thief-acrobats are not representative of the species as a whole. 



freyar said:


> Maybe we should drop the Hunker Down ability, then...




I'd rather keep it, since they don't have much to distinguish them.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jan 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Bah. Epic level hedgehog thief-acrobats are not representative of the species as a whole.




They are not acrobats.

After this, we should do the giant skunk next.  I wonder why that wasn't converted?


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> They are not acrobats.




You mean Sonic wasn't a gentleman, a scholar and an acrobat, like the Pink Panther?



GrayLinnorm said:


> After this, we should do the giant skunk next.  I wonder why that wasn't converted?




I think somebody raised a stink about it. 

Anyhow, getting back to the Porcupine I think we might as well rough out some stats. I'll do an outline with the stats based on a Badger or downsized Boar.


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

*Porcupine Working Draft*

*Porcupine*
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1/2d8+2 (4 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 5 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-5
Attack: Bite +0 melee (1d4-1)
Full Attack: Bite +0 melee (1d4-1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./ 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Quills
Special Qualities: Hunker down, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3
Skills: 4 [Climb +7, Listen +5?]
Feats: 1 [Ability Focus (quills)?]
Environment: Any woods
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: [1/2?]
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: [1 HD (Small)?]
Level Adjustment: —

_A sturdily built animal covered with long spines. It has a squarish head, beady eyes and a short but broad tail._

*Combat*

* Hunker Down (Ex):*  If a porcupine is threatened in melee and  cannot retreat to a safe  distance from its opponent(s), it curls its  head and legs under its  torso while on the ground and flares its quills  in all directions. In  this defensive position, the Reflex save DC of its quills special attack  gains a +2 bonus (increasing it to DC 16 for a typical porcupine), but the  porcupine's speed is reduced to 10 ft. and it cannot charge or run. 	

*Quills (Ex):* Melee combat with a porcupine is dangerous. An  opponent who attacks a porcupine with a melee weapon that does not have  Reach must succeed at a DC 14 Reflex save or be struck by 1d4 quills.  Each quill does 1 point of piercing damage and lodges in the opponent's  flesh, imposing a -1 circumstance penalty to attacks, saves, and checks  per quill (maximum -4 penalty). Removing a quill inflicts 1 point of  additional damage to the victim unless a DC 15 Heal check is made. The  save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Jan 17, 2011)

I thought you said porcupines couldn't hunker up above?  The quills could be enough.


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## Cleon (Jan 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> I thought you said porcupines couldn't hunker up above?  The quills could be enough.




I said porcupines couldn't roll up, not that they couldn't hunker down.

Still, I don't mind de-hunking them if you & Shade prefer.


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## freyar (Jan 19, 2011)

I think hunkering was supposed to be rolling up, right?  Well, I can go either way, but I think hunkering down should probably go for the real-world version.


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## Shade (Jan 19, 2011)

Hunker away!


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> Hunker away!



Does that mean you want us to hunker or you want to do away with it?


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## Cleon (Jan 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Does that mean you want us to hunker or you want to do away with it?




Well I'm pretty sure he doesn't want us to roll away with it.


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## Shade (Jan 21, 2011)

Hunker to your heart's content, with my blessings.


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2011)

Ok, that's settled.  Cleon's red text above is ok by me, too.


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## Shade (Jan 21, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

My only objection is to Ability Focus.  It just feels a bit wrong here.  DC 12 (14 when hunkered) seems plenty for a CR 1/2 critter.  Alertness seems more appropriate.


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## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> My only objection is to Ability Focus.  It just feels a bit wrong here.  DC 12 (14 when hunkered) seems plenty for a CR 1/2 critter.  Alertness seems more appropriate.




I don't mind removing Ability Focus, we can always save it for the Dire version.

Incidentally, a typical porcupine is 2 to 3 feet long (sans tail) and weighs 12 to 30 pounds.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2011)

Go with Alertness.


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2011)

Updated.

Ready for the dire version?


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Ready for the dire version?




It needs the standard Climb skill text:

*Skills:* Porcupines have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. 

The biggest species of Porcupine can reach 40-60 pounds, so I wondered about making the Advancement 1 HD (Medium) _*or*_ 1 HD (Small); 2 HD (Medium), but I'm not sure I'm that keen on the idea.

Oh heck, it's just on the cusp of Small/Medium, so we might as well leave them Small.

Porcupines have a couple of other curious traits, such as:

Porcupines have excellent spatial memories (to remember were food-trees are in forests) so are good at navigating mazes and the like.

The North American Porcupine (_Erethizon dorsatum_) has antibiotic skin, so it doesn't get infected if it falls out of a tree and wounds itself with its own quills.

However, interesting as that is I think we can safely leave them out. (If the wizards left the tremorsense out of Crocodiles we can leave the navigation sense out of Porcupines).

Basically, this is a long way of saying "Give them the Skills writeup for Climb and move on the the Dire Porcupine".


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2011)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2011)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 26, 2011)

So, how big shall we make the dire version?


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2011)

Most dire animals are only one size bigger than their real-world counterparts, so Medium?


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2011)

I guess a Medium porcupine would seem pretty big.  Want to add any more special abilities, or just make it bigger and stronger?  Any good prehistoric inspiration?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

I did some surfing, and didn't find much on prehistoric giant porcupines.  

Bigger n' stronger will probably suffice, like the dire wolf, dire ape, and dire wolverine.


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> I guess a Medium porcupine would seem pretty big.  Want to add any more special abilities, or just make it bigger and stronger?  Any good prehistoric inspiration?




The AD&D Giant Porcupine is Large but is only 7' long, so I'm OK making the Dire version Medium, provided it advances to Large.

As for special abilities, we have to give it a "Shoot Quills" special attack like the original.

The AD&D Giant Porcupine also has 6 HD, which seems an awful lot for a Medium-sized creature.

How about making a 3 HD Medium-sized Dire Porcupine which advances to Large at 6 HD? That would cover both our bases.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2011)

That's fine with me.  So is the dire porcupine supposed to be a giant porcupine conversion, too?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> How about making a 3 HD Medium-sized Dire Porcupine which advances to Large at 6 HD? That would cover both our bases.




Agreed.



freyar said:


> That's fine with me.  So is the dire porcupine supposed to be a giant porcupine conversion, too?




Yep.  Most "giant" creatures in 3e are magical beast, often intelligent,  versions, like the giant eagle and giant owl.  The rest became dire animals.


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep.  Most "giant" creatures in 3e are magical beast, often intelligent,  versions, like the giant eagle and giant owl.  The rest became dire animals.




What he said.

I'll start on a rough draft.


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2011)

*Dire Porcupine Working Draft*

*Dire Porcupine*
Medium Animal
*Hit Dice:* 3d8+6 (19 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor Class:* 15 (+1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+3
*Attack:* Bite +3 melee (1d6+1) or quills +3 melee (special) or 4 quills +3 ranged (1d3)
 *Full Attack:* Bite +3 melee (1d6+1) or quills +3 melee (special) or 4 quills +3 ranged (1d3)
 *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./ 5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Quills, shoot quills
*Special Qualities:* Hunker down, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
*Skills:* Climb +6, Listen +7, Spot +3
*Feats:* Ability Focus (defensive quills), Alertness
*Environment:* Any woods
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4-5 HD (Medium); 6-9 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_This sturdily-built animal is covered with long spines. It has a squarish head, beady eyes and a short but broad tail._

A typical dire porcupine is 4 to 6 feet long (sans tail) and weighs 200 to 300 pounds.

*COMBAT*

Dire porcupines are more aggressive than their smaller cousins. They normally hiss a warning should any creature approach within 30 feet or so, and if the creature does not immediately retreat the dire porcupine starts launching volleys of quills. If these missiles prove ineffective, a dire porcupine either flees into the woods, or hunkers down into a ball of quills and bites any opponent that approaches it.

*Quills (Ex):* Melee combat with a  dire  porcupine is dangerous. An opponent who attacks a porcupine with a   melee weapon that does not have reach must succeed on a DC 15 Reflex   save or be struck by 1d4 quills. Each quill does 1d3 point of piercing   damage (plus half the porcupine's Strength bonus, if any) and lodges in   the opponent's flesh, imposing a -1 circumstance penalty to attacks,   saves, and checks per quill (maximum -4 penalty). Removing a quill   inflicts 1d3 point of additional damage to the victim unless a DC 15   Heal check is made.

A dire porcupine can also attack an opponent with its quills as a single  melee attack, with damage as above. If the opponent succeeds at the DC  15 Reflex save they take half damage and the quills do not lodge in  their flesh.

The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Hunker Down (Ex):* If a dire porcupine is threatened in melee and cannot retreat to a safe distance from its opponent(s), it curls its head and legs under its torso while on the ground and flares its quills in all directions. In this defensive position, the Reflex save DC of its defensive quills special attack gains a +2 bonus (increasing it to DC 17 for a typical dire porcupine), but the porcupine's speed is reduced to 10 ft. and it cannot charge or run.

*Shoot Quills (Ex):* With a snap of its tail, a dire porcupine can loose a volley of four quills as a standard action (make an attack roll for each quill). This attack has a range of 30 feet with no range increment. All targets must be within 30 feet of each other. Any opponent hit by a shot quill must succeed as a DC 15 Reflex save or the quill will lodge in their flesh (see Defensive Quills, above, for the effects). A dire porcupine has 80 quills it can shoot from its tail, and regrows lost tail quills at a rate of 20 quills per 24-hour period.

*Skills:* Dire porcupines have a +4 racial bonus on Climb checks.

*Large Dire Porcupine** (" Giant Porcupine")*
Large Animal
*Hit Dice:* 6d8+24 (51 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor Class:* 15 (-1 size, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +4/+13
*Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1d8+5) or quills +8 melee (special) or 4 quills +5 ranged (1d4+3)
*Full Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1d8+5) or quills +8 melee (special) +5 ranged (1d4+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./ 5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Quills [_DC 19, 1d4 quills doing 1d4+2 damage_], shoot quills
*Special Qualities:* Hunker down [_DC 21_], low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 21, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
*Skills:* Climb +9, Listen +9, Spot +4
*Feats:* Ability Focus (defensive quills), Alertness, Point Blank Shot
*Environment:* Any woods
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 7-9 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2011)

This is pretty good.  Just two changes.  I think "defensive quills" should just be renamed to "quills" to match the smaller version.  And we shouldn't add the advanced stats. 

I almost wonder from the description of giant porcupines in the original if they can't use the quills as a melee attack (like the howler).  It says "As its quills are up to three feet long, any attacker that comes within six feet of the giant porcupine receives 1d4 quills from the porcupine’s defensive movements."


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## Cleon (Jan 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> This is pretty good.  Just two changes.  I think "defensive quills" should just be renamed to "quills" to match the smaller version.  And we shouldn't add the advanced stats.




I knew you were going to say that, but left the "Defensive" in just to needle you. 

Oh, and I statted up a version advanced to Large to see how it compared wit the AD&D original, I wasn't planning on including in in the CC.



freyar said:


> I almost wonder from the description of giant porcupines in the original if they can't use the quills as a melee attack (like the howler).  It says "As its quills are up to three feet long, any attacker that comes within six feet of the giant porcupine receives 1d4 quills from the porcupine’s defensive movements."




Something like this?:

*Attack:* Bite +3 melee (1d6+1) or quills +3 melee (special) or 4 quills +3 ranged (1d3)
*Full Attack:* Bite +3 melee (1d6+1) or quills +3 melee (special) or 4 quills +3 ranged (1d3)

*Quills (Ex):* Melee combat with a  dire porcupine is dangerous. An opponent who attacks a porcupine with a  melee weapon that does not have reach must succeed on a DC 15 Reflex  save or be struck by 1d4 quills. Each quill does 1d3 point of piercing  damage (plus half the porcupine's Strength bonus, if any) and lodges in  the opponent's flesh, imposing a -1 circumstance penalty to attacks,  saves, and checks per quill (maximum -4 penalty). Removing a quill  inflicts 1d3 point of additional damage to the victim unless a DC 15  Heal check is made.

A dire porcupine can also attack an opponent with its quills as a single melee attack, with damage as above. If the opponent succeeds at the DC 15 Reflex save they take half damage and the quills do not lodge in their flesh.

The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Feb 2, 2011)

Yup, like that.  What do you think?


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yup, like that.  What do you think?




I have no objections.

Shall I update the working draft?


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2011)

Go for it.


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## Cleon (Feb 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Go for it.




*Updated*.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2011)

Lookin' good!


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## Cleon (Feb 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> Lookin' good!




Lookin' finished!

Can you think of anything it's missing?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2011)

Moved to Homebrews and added a bit of flavor text.

I believe we're done.


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## Cleon (Feb 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Moved to Homebrews and added a bit of flavor text.
> 
> I believe we're done.




We're done once you've added the full stop missing from the first sentence of your flavour:

"Dire porcupines, like their smaller cousins, are rodents known for their  coat of quills   Dire porcupines are herbivorous, eating mostly leaves,  herbs, twigs and green plants."

=>

"Dire porcupines, like their smaller cousins, are rodents known for their  coat of quills.   Dire porcupines are herbivorous, eating mostly leaves,  herbs, twigs and green plants."


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2011)

Full stop repaired.

*Woodchuck *
HD 1-6 hp 
AC 9 
# App 1-2 
Att 1 
Dmg 1 
MV 5, Br 2 
XP Value 7

Woodchucks are capable of quickly gnawing through trees or wood. The pelts are worth 1 gp.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Two (1989).

Groundhog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, we've already got 3e stats for a groundhog, but we could use this as a springboard for a dire version if you'd like.


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Full stop repaired.
> 
> *Woodchuck *
> HD 1-6 hp
> ...




These don't strike me as desperately interesting, I fear.

How much are they going to differ from an SRD Rat?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> These don't strike me as desperately interesting, I fear.
> 
> How much are they going to differ from an SRD Rat?




Here are the groundhog (familiar) stats:

Groundhog: CR --; Tiny Animal; HD 1/4 d8; hp 1; +1 (Dex); Spd 10 ft.; AC 13 (+1 Dex, +2 size); Atk none; SQ scent; Face 2 1/2 ft. by 2 1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.; SV Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1; Str 3, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3.
Skills: Hide +20, Move Silently +9, Listen +9, Groundhogs gain a +4 bonus to Hide, Move Silently, and Listen checks.


I'm perfectly content to move on to something else.


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Here are the groundhog (familiar) stats:
> 
> Groundhog: CR --; Tiny Animal; HD 1/4 d8; hp 1; +1 (Dex); Spd 10 ft.; AC 13 (+1 Dex, +2 size); Atk none; SQ scent; Face 2 1/2 ft. by 2 1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.; SV Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1; Str 3, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3.
> Skills: Hide +20, Move Silently +9, Listen +9, Groundhogs gain a +4 bonus to Hide, Move Silently, and Listen checks.
> ...




Mostly that looks OK, but surely woodchucks ought to have a Climb Speed, or at least a racial bonus to Climb since they go up trees to feed or escape predators? They're also good swimmers, which isn't reflected in those stats.

I'd just add a 10 ft. Climb and  Swim speed to those Groundhog familiar stats and called it a day. They shouldn't bet far off from the SRD Rat stats, as I said.

However, since woodchucks _are_ groundhogs the familiar entry means they've got official 3E stats, so I think we should move on...


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## freyar (Feb 14, 2011)

I think I have to agree that these have officially been converted already.  Though an SA to ignore the hardness of wood would have been amusing, despite the lack of attacks.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2011)

As far as I can tell, these haven't been converted under their own or any other name...

*Muskrat *
HD 1-3 hp 
AC 10 
#App 1-2 
#Att 1 
Dmg 1 
MV 4 
XP Value 7   

Muskrats have a moderately valuable pelt worth five sp.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Two (1989).

Muskrat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Cleon (Feb 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> As far as I can tell, these haven't been converted under their own or any other name...
> 
> *Muskrat *




I would suggest taking the Enworld Beaver conversion and reducing it 1 size category, since Muskrats should be pretty similar to Tiny Beavers as far as their 3E stats go.

The Enworld Beaver has Str 13 which would be 9 if Tiny-fied. A muskrat is about 4 times bigger than a large rat, so Str 7 would seem better.

I also gave them a rat's mental stats rather than a beaver's, since the Enworld beaver has Wisdom 16 for some weird reason.

That would give stats something like:

*Muskrat*
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 1/2d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 12 (+2 size), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-10
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d3-2)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d3-2)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Cold tolerant, hold breath, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +3, Swim +8
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Temperate swamps
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (2-12) or lodge (10–40)
Challenge Rating: 1/8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Cold Tolerant (Ex): A muskrat's insulating fat grants it a +2 racial bonus on saving throws made against cold attacks and environmental conditions.

Hold Breath (Ex): A muskrat can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 6 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Skills: A muskrat has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## freyar (Feb 16, 2011)

Well, the stats part seems done for those.  Anyone have time to write the flavor and combat text?


----------



## Shade (Feb 16, 2011)

I'll just cut n' paste the lyrics to _Muskrat Love_.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'll just cut n' paste the lyrics to _Muskrat Love_.




Does that work include length and weight information?

Failing that, how's this.
_
A brown-furred rodent the size of a large rat, but much stockier. It has a flattened scaly tail and half-webbed hind feet to aid its swimming._

Muskrats are aquatic rodents that live in temperate or subarctic wetlands (swamps, lakes, rivers, et cetera). They can survive in saltwater marshes, but prefer freshwater. A muskrat looks much like a miniature beaver and has similar habits to that animal. Muskrats don't fell trees like beavers, but can build lodges out of twigs, reeds and mud. They don't always build lodges, if there's a convenient riverbank or lake's edge they will dig out a burrow instead, and they sometimes live in the lodges of beavers instead of building their own. Muskrats are social animals, and a big lodge may contain up to 40 animals. Muskrats are often hunted for their meat and skins, their thick fur is prized for its warmth.

A typical muskrat has a body 9 inches to a foot long, with a tail of similar length, and weighs 1 to 4 pounds.

*Combat*
A muskrat in danger will run to the nearest water, dive in and swim away underwater, heading for its lodge. Muskrats may bite if held or cornered, but their instinct is to flee.


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.  Finished?




I don't want to quibble, but it's named a "*Porcupine, Dire*".

Apart from that it looks good.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 22, 2011)

Weren't we talking about doing a Giant Skunk next?


----------



## Shade (Feb 23, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I don't want to quibble, but it's named a "*Porcupine, Dire*".




Quibbler!   Wow...that's taking cut n' paste to a whole new level of FAIL.  



Cleon said:


> Weren't we talking about doing a Giant Skunk next?




Were we?


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2011)

Is there one in previous editions?


----------



## Shade (Feb 25, 2011)

Oh yeah:

Monster Manual
Monstrous Compendium Volume One
Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two 
Creature Catalogue (AC9)
Creature Catalogue (DMR2)


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2011)

Well, then, if it's not converted yet, we might as well.


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## Cleon (Feb 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, then, if it's not converted yet, we might as well.




Let's do it then.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 28, 2011)

To get us started, here's the MC1 version of the Normal and Giant Skunk:

*Skunk*

*Normal*
Climate/Terrain: Temperate or subtropical forests
Frequency: Common
Organization: Solitary or family
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Omnivore
Intelligence: Animal (1)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing: 1 or 1-6
Armor Class: 8
Movement: 12
Hit Dice: 1-2 hit points
THAC0: 20
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 1
Special Attacks: Squirt musk
Special Defenses: Squirt musk
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: T (2’ long)
Morale: Unsteady (5)
XP Value:35

*Giant*
Climate/Terrain: Temperate or subtropical forests
Frequency: Uncommon
Organization: Solitary or family
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Omnivore
Intelligence: Animal (1)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing: 1 or 1-4
Armor Class: 7
Movement: 9
Hit Dice: 5
THAC0: 15
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 1-6
Special Attacks: Squirt musk
Special Defenses: Squirt musk
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: M (6’ long)
Morale: Average (9)
XP Value:270

Skunks are forest-dwelling omnivores found in most temperate and subtropical regions. They are easily recognized by the long white stripe running from their faces, down their black-furred backs, to the tips of their tails.

*Combat:* Skunks react to any serious threat by backing toward the opponent. If the other creature does not quickly get beyond range, the skunk discharges a vile cloud of stinking musk at it.

The cloud of a normal skunk is 10’×10’×10’. Any creature unfortunate enough to be caught in a skunk’s cloud must first save versus poison or be nauseated (lose 50% of Strength and Dexterity) for 1-4 rounds and retreat and retch. Anyone who makes the first saving throw, but chooses to remain within the cloud, must make an additional save versus poison each round he stays. After the results of the first saving throw have been determined, a second save versus poison must be made to determine whether or not the vile musk has gotten into the victim’s eyes, thereby blinding the unfortunate creature for 1-4 rounds.

The stench of the musk seems almost impossible to get rid of. All normal cloth materials must save versus acid or rot and become useless. All other items (i.e. flesh, leather, metal, etc.) must be washed and aired repeatedly for several days to remove the horrible stench. Washing the items in vinegar will remove the smell in only a few washings, while certain spells and magical items can accomplish the task quite nicely. A _potion of sweet water_ poured carefully over the items to be cleaned will neutralize the musk in the garments of 2-5 people (depending on the quantity of gear and the care used in applying the fluid) Despite washing, any cloth that fails its saving throw—including magical items—will rot and become useless.

If cornered, skunks can bite, but usually loose their combination offense/defense musk cloud immediately. If two or more skunks are encountered, the DM should make careful note of where their clouds go. While skunks are immune to the nausea effects of other skunks, they can still be blinded by the acid musk just like any other living creature.

*Habitat/Society:* Skunks are wandering scavengers and have no social structure. They prefer to eat the leftovers of larger predators and always dwell deep in the forest.

*Ecology:* As mentioned above, skunks will eat almost anything, usually the remains of other kills. Their musk is secreted from a small posterior sac which is heavily muscled to permit the expulsion of the fluid. The fluid forms a heavy mist which lingers in an area for up to a week or more, depending on the prevailing winds and area filled. If the skunk is surprised and killed quickly, there is a 50% chance that the musk is recoverable. A giant skunk killed in this way can be a prize worth close to 200 gp to a sage or alchemist, as the musk is a valuable alchemical component (for stinking cloud scroll ink, smoke bombs, etc.)

A skunk pelt is relatively worthless as a luxury fur. Skunk meat is bitter and must be heavily seasoned to be palatable.

Skunks can be raised in captivity and make wonderful pets and combination low-cost garbage disposals/house guards.

*Giant Skunk*
Giant Skunks are simply huge versions of the normal variety. Their musk clouds tend to be larger and more noxious than those of their cousins. The cloud is 20 feet wide by 20 feet high by 60 feet long and all saving throws against the musk of a giant skunk are at a penalty of -4.

_ Originally appeared in MC1 - Monstrous Compendium Volume One (1989)._


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2011)

Here's the Tome of Horrors Revised skunk...

*SKUNK*
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 1/2d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+2 size, +1 Dex), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d3-4)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d3-4)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Musk
Special Qualities: Scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 2, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +10, Listen +4, Move Silently +2, Spot +4
Feats: Alertness, Weapon FinesseB
Environment: Temperate forest and hills
Organization: Solitary or family (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 1/8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

The stats here describe the common nonaggressive skunk.

Combat

Skunks squirt their musk at potential predators in hopes of forcing the predator to flee. If this fails, the skunk looks for the quickest route possible for itself to escape. If cornered, a skunk bites its opponents.

Musk (Ex): Once per round, and no more than 5 times per day, a skunk can release a cloud of stinking musk that quickly fills a 5-foot area in front of it. A creature within or entering the area must succeed on a DC 10 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d4 rounds. One round later a second Fortitude save must be made (whether the first one succeeded or not) or the affected creature is blinded for 1d4 rounds. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature, but does not remove the blindness. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected by the sickened effect but can still be blinded if they fail their save, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on both saving throws.

The stench is highly potent, and short of magical means of cleaning, all cloth and such material continue to reek for 1d6 months. The odor is so strong that it doubles all chances for wandering monster encounters and imposes a -12 circumstance penalty on Hide checks attempted while wearing clothing contaminated with a skunk’s musk. Flesh, leather goods, metal goods (weapons, armor, and the like) must be washed in a concentrated mixture of vinegar for a period of 1d3 days. Otherwise, the stench clings to them for at least 1 week, imposing the same modifiers to wandering monster encounters and Hide checks.



Upsize to Medium and tweak to suit our needs?


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2011)

Here's how it looks at Medium (without reducing Dex)...

Skunk, Giant
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+5 (27 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Musk
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +3, Listen +5, Move Silently +3, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more
Environment: Temperate forest and hills
Organization: Solitary or family (2-5)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: —


The musk sounds more like a spread for the giant version, and may need a +4 racial bonus on the save DC.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2011)

I'll agree to all that.


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## Cleon (Mar 7, 2011)

It's a great start.

I'd make them Dire and increase the potency of the musk attack.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

Let's work on the musk...

Musk (Ex): Once per round, and no more than 5 times per day, a dire skunk can release a cloud of stinking musk in a 20-foot burst. A creature within or entering the area must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d4 rounds. One round later a second Fortitude save must be made (whether the first one succeeded or not) or the affected creature is blinded for 1d4 rounds. The save DCs are Constitution-based and include a +4 racial bonus.

A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature, but does not remove the blindness. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected by the sickened effect but can still be blinded if they fail their save, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on both saving throws.

The stench is highly potent, and short of magical means of cleaning, all cloth and such material continue to reek for 1d6 months. The odor is so strong that it doubles all chances for wandering monster encounters and imposes a -12 circumstance penalty on Hide checks attempted while wearing clothing contaminated with a skunk’s musk. Flesh, leather goods, metal goods (weapons, armor, and the like) must be washed in a concentrated mixture of vinegar for a period of 1d3 days. Otherwise, the stench clings to them for at least 1 week, imposing the same modifiers to wandering monster encounters and Hide checks.


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## freyar (Mar 8, 2011)

Hmm, dire lycanthrope skunk?  Phewwwww!

But yes, sure.


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2011)

If Cleon's OK with it, all that remains is Challenge Rating, Advancement, and weight.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2011)

CR 3.  The encounter itself won't be too terribly challenging at that CR, but the after effects will really linger.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2011)

CR 3 works.  Thoughts on the advancement and weight?


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## Cleon (Mar 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Let's work on the musk...
> 
> ...






Shade said:


> If Cleon's OK with it, all that remains is Challenge Rating, Advancement, and weight.




I am tempted to make it nastier.

The BECMI version of a Skunk's musk which rendered its victim _*helpless with nausea*_ for 2d6+6 rounds, the 1st edition AD&D Skunk sickened for 2-8 _*turns*_!

How about 1d4 rounds of nausea plus 1d4+4 rounds of sickness?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I am tempted to make it nastier.
> 
> The BECMI version of a Skunk's musk which rendered its victim _*helpless with nausea*_ for 2d6+6 rounds, the 1st edition AD&D Skunk sickened for 2-8 _*turns*_!
> 
> How about 1d4 rounds of nausea plus 1d4+4 rounds of sickness?




I'm OK with that.  Freyar?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm OK with that.  Freyar?




No freyar?

Oh well, I can wait.


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## freyar (Mar 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> No freyar?
> 
> Oh well, I can wait.



I'm still playing catch-up.  Yeah, nausea is fine by me (for the giant skunk musk, that is, not for me!).


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## Cleon (Mar 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm still playing catch-up.  Yeah, nausea is fine by me (for the giant skunk musk, that is, not for me!).




Sounds like we're agreed. So that changes it to:

Musk (Ex): Once per round, and no more than 5 times per day, a dire  skunk can release a cloud of stinking musk in a 20-foot burst. A  creature within or entering the area must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude  save or be nauseated for 1d4 rounds and then sickened for a further 1d4+4 rounds. One round later a second Fortitude  save must be made (whether the first one succeeded or not) or the  affected creature is blinded for 1d4 rounds. The save DCs are  Constitution-based and include a +4 racial bonus.

A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the  sickened creature, but does not remove the blindness. Creatures with  immunity to poison are unaffected by the sickened effect but can still  be blinded if they fail their save, and creatures resistant to poison  receive their normal bonus on both saving throws.

The stench is highly potent, and short of magical means of cleaning, all  cloth and such material continue to reek for 1d6 months. The odor is so  strong that it doubles all chances for wandering monster encounters and  imposes a -12 circumstance penalty on Hide checks attempted while  wearing clothing contaminated with a skunk’s musk. Flesh, leather goods,  metal goods (weapons, armor, and the like) must be washed in a  concentrated mixture of vinegar for a period of 1d3 days. Otherwise, the  stench clings to them for at least 1 week, imposing the same modifiers  to wandering monster encounters and Hide checks.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2011)

Looks good, then.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks good, then.




That's about it for "Giant Pepe" then, at least mechanically.

All we need now is a weight and some text & tactics.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That's about it for "Giant Pepe" then, at least mechanically.
> 
> All we need now is a weight and some text & tactics.



Go for it!


----------



## Shade (Mar 21, 2011)

Updated.

Giant Pepe (great name!) still needs another feat and Advancement as well.

Ability Focus (musk)?  It's save DC isn't that fantastic thanks to its Con 12.

Advancement: 6–15 HD (Large) like the dire wolverine?


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2011)

I'll agree to AF and that advancement.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2011)

Updated.

A dire skunk is 6 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## Cleon (Mar 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Giant Pepe (great name!) still needs another feat and Advancement as well.
> 
> ...




Ability Focus is fine by me.

Their stinky DC could do with improvement. 

Not sure why you'd quote the Dire Wolverine for advancement, since a wolverine *starts out* Large. I'd think a Dire Badger (3HD Medium Animal with 4-9 HD (Large) advancement) would be a better comparison.

Anyhow, 6-15 HD (Large) is OK by me, although I'd be just as happy with 6-9 HD (Medium); 10-15 HD (Large).



Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> A dire skunk is 6 feet long and weighs x pounds.




Let's see, a typical striped skunk (_Mephitis mephitis_) is about 20-28 inches long (including tail) and weighs around 6-14 lbs.

About a third of the length is tail though, their bodies are about 15-18 inches long. Scale bodylength up to 6 feet and they're four or five times the dimensions, or 64-125 times the weight. Assuming the starting weight is 6-8 pounds that works out around 500-750 pounds. Might as well use the lowest, since that's the standard weight limit of a Medium creature.

"A dire skunk is 6 feet long and weighs 500 pounds."?


----------



## freyar (Mar 28, 2011)

Hmm, maybe it does make sense with some advancement at Medium.  Anyway, I'll go with Cleon on the height/weight.


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## Cleon (Mar 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, maybe it does make sense with some advancement at Medium.  Anyway, I'll go with Cleon on the height/weight.




I don't mind either way for the Advancement.

I'll just consult my random decision maker...

...flip!...

Random decision maker says 6-15 HD (Large). 

...flip! ... flip!...

Best out of three gives 2 for Large only advancement, 1 for Medium-to-Large.

...flip! ... flip!...

Best out of five gives 3 for Medium-to-Large, 2 for Large only.

Shall we leave it to whichever Shade prefers when he gets back?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2011)

Let's just go with 6-15 HD (Large) unless Shade really objects.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's just go with 6-15 HD (Large) unless Shade really objects.




Suits me.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's just go with 6-15 HD (Large) unless Shade really objects.




No objections.  

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Apr 5, 2011)

All done?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> All done?




Looks fine as is, although I am tempted to flesh out the description a bit using some of the AD&D description for inspiration. Something like...

Dire skunks are larger versions of the traditional black-and-white  omnivores.  Their musk is more potent than their smaller cousins and their flesh is distasteful but not inedible. They are far less timid than their normal-sized cousins, and sometimes boldly walk into travelers' camps to steal food.

A dire skunk is 6 feet long and weighs 500 pounds.

COMBAT

Dire skunks are not aggressive animals but rarely shows fear of other creatures, being confident in the potency of their musk. They usually raise their tail to warn off creatures who press too close, only squirting their musk if the intruder attacks or continues to annoy them. If their musk fails to drive off their opponent, the skunk looks for the quickest escape  route. A cornered dire skunk bites its  opponents.


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2011)

Yeah, that's an improvement.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yeah, that's an improvement.  Updated.




I think we're done with this foul beast then.

What's next?


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2011)

We might as well get this one off the docket:

Mammal HD AC #App. #Att Dmg/Att MV XP Value Notes 
Opossum 1-3 hp 10 1-8 1 1 4 7   

Opossum are woodland marsupials with good hearing.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Two (1989).


We can probably just downsize this...

*Dire Opossum*
Medium-size Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (20 hp)
Initiative: +3 (+3 Dex)
Speed: 40 ft., climb 20 ft.
AC: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Attacks: Bite +5 melee
Damage: Bite 1d6+1 plus disease
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Disease
Special Qualities: Scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +4
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skills: Hide +8, Listen +5, Move Silently +9
Feats: Weapon Finesse (bite)
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Large); 7-9 HD (Huge)

Nearly five feet long, dire opossums often hide, waiting for food to come within reach. A successful Spot check (opposed by the opossum's hide check) reveals the gleaming reflection of the opossum's eyes.

Combat

Disease (Ex): Filth fever bite; Fortitude save (DC 12); incubation period 1d3 days; damage 1d3 temporary Dexterity and 1d3 temporary Constitution.

Source: Dungeon Magazine #91, p.61.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> We can probably just downsize this...
> 
> *Dire Opossum*




Downsize it to Tiny I suppose, since a 'Possum's between a rat and cat in size.

That'd make it Str 5, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 8. Dire creatures are stronger, faster & tougher than regular Animals, so I'd cut the Str and Dex a bit. Cha 8 seems too much, too.

Being nocturnal, they ought to have low-light vision.

How's this for a start:

*Opossum*
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 1/2d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +2 (+2 Dex)
Speed: 30 ft., climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-4 plus disease)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-4 plus disease)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Disease
Special Qualities: Low light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Climb +10, plus 4
(_Listen 2, Spot 2__ plus Stealthy__? That'd make it:
*Skills:* Balance +6, Climb +10, Jump +6, Hide +12, Listen +3, Move Silently +4, Spot +3, Swim +6_)
Feats: Weapon Finesse (B) plus 1 (_Stealthy?_)
Climate/Terrain: Any land
Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (2-8)
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —

_Description
_
Flavour

* COMBAT*

Tactics

*Disease (Ex):* Filth fever bite; Fortitude save (DC 10); incubation period 1d3 days; damage 1d3 temporary Dexterity and 1d3 temporary Constitution.

*Skills:* Opossums have a +4 racial bonus on Balance and Swim checks. Opossums have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb, Jump and Swim checks.


----------



## Shade (Apr 11, 2011)

That looks a good start, and the suggested skills appeal.


----------



## freyar (Apr 12, 2011)

Hmm, any chance we could replace filth fever with something more like rabies?


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, any chance we could replace filth fever with something more like rabies?




What do you propose?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> That looks a good start, and the suggested skills appeal.




Suggested changes?

Anything else they need apart from flavour & tactics.

"Possum Familiars" maybe?


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Suggested changes?
> 
> Anything else they need apart from flavour & tactics.




See the above two posts.  



Cleon said:


> "Possum Familiars" maybe?




Sure, why not.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, any chance we could replace filth fever with something more like rabies?




No, I don't think so. It's not like every 'possum has hydrophobia.


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2011)

These things really need a "play dead" ability.  It's a possum's claim to fame!

It would make a nice benefit as a familiar as well...when danger comes, Whizbang the Wizard and his mighty possum Polly drop and feign death!


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> These things really need a "play dead" ability.  It's a possum's claim to fame!
> 
> It would make a nice benefit as a familiar as well...when danger comes, Whizbang the Wizard and his mighty possum Polly drop and feign death!




Good idea. Some kind of racial bonus to Disguise checks when pretending to be a corpse?

Shame the old _feign death_ spell isn't in the SRD, since that'd be an interesting ability for a familiar.

We could whip one up as a modified _disguise self_ I suppose.


----------



## Shade (Apr 14, 2011)

We've apparently already done some of the work.     We'll just need to turn this into an Ex ability and make the necessary adjustments.

Creature Catalog - Preview Creature

Feign Death (Su): A tabur can place itself in a cataleptic state that is nearly impossible to distinguish from death. Although able to smell, hear, and know what is going on, the tabur is blind and has no sense of touch or pain. Its breathing is slowed to the point of being undetectable. 

A creature examining the tabur may attempt a Heal check opposed by the tabur's Disguise check to detect the ruse. The tabur gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to feign death.


----------



## freyar (Apr 15, 2011)

Feign Death is nice for these!  

As for the disease, nothing really strikes me from the SRD diseases.  Filth fever is just so overused.  I guess it's fine, though, since it's probably really racoons that you need rabies for.


----------



## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Is this enough to "desupernaturalize" the ability?

Feign Death (Ex): An opossum can play dead with great accuracy. Although able to smell, hear, and know what is going on, the opossum is effectively blind while feigning death. 

A creature examining the opossum may attempt a Heal or Spot check opposed by the opossum's Disguise check to detect the ruse. The opossum gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to feign death.


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## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Is this enough to "desupernaturalize" the ability?
> 
> Feign Death (Ex): An opossum can play dead with great accuracy. Although able to smell, hear, and know what is going on, the opossum is effectively blind while feigning death.
> 
> A creature examining the opossum may attempt a Heal or Spot check opposed by the opossum's Disguise check to detect the ruse. The opossum gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to feign death.




That looks good enough for government work. 

A bit of internet wandering yields the following...


A feigning opossum can release a scent so it also _smells_ like it's dead.
Some sources say they're comatose when playing 'possum, but EEGs show normal brain activity, so it's likely they're alert.
Oh, opossums sometimes feign dead with their eyes open, suggesting they _might _be able to see.
You can see them breathe when feigning death.
Do we want to add any of those?

Is a +10 circumstance bonus too much? It's not a supernatural ability, and if a 'playing' possum may be visibly breathing it doesn't sound like a perfect masquerade. I'd lower the bonus a bit.

*Feign Death (Ex):* An opossum can play dead with great accuracy. It lies stiffly on its side and secretes a foul odor, so it looks and smells like a dead animal. Although able to smell, hear, and know what is going on, the opossum is effectively blind while feigning death.

A creature examining the opossum may attempt a Heal or Spot check  opposed by the opossum's Disguise check to detect the ruse. The opossum  gains a +8 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to feign death.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> *Feign Death (Ex):* An opossum can play dead with great accuracy. It lies stiffly on its side and secretes a foul odor, so it looks and smells like a dead animal. Although able to smell, hear, and know what is going on, the opossum is effectively blind while feigning death.
> 
> A creature examining the opossum may attempt a Heal or Spot check  opposed by the opossum's Disguise check to detect the ruse. The opossum  gains a +8 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to feign death.




I like the revisions.  Added to Homebrews.

I shifted the skill ranks into Disguise so the DC would be even remotely challenging.


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## Cleon (Apr 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I like the revisions.  Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I shifted the skill ranks into Disguise so the DC would be even remotely challenging.




In that case, how about giving them Alertness rather than Stealth?

How sneaky are opossums, anyway?


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2011)

Or how about Skill Focus (Disguise)?


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Or how about Skill Focus (Disguise)?




I thought about that, but (a) they've already got a pretty good modifier and (b) SF is not as efficient as a "pair of +2 skill bonuses" feat.

Besides, if we really wanted to improve the Feign Dead I'd rather just put the SQ's bonus back to +10.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2011)

Alertness appeals.

Updated.

Do anything with this?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Opossums have a remarkably robust immune system, and show partial or total immunity to the venom of rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, and other pit vipers.


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2011)

+1 bonus to saves vs poison would work.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 21, 2011)

Let's give them a +2 to saves vs. poison. Even numbered miscellaneous bonuses seem to be more popular.

Also: the opposum currently is stated to be a Medium animal, although its AC includes the correct bonus for being Tiny.

Do we want to make them familiar options? If so, might I suggest a bonus to Bluff as their associated skill? Although that would be a bit weird, since they use Disguise to appear dead. Was there a debate over the appropriate skill?


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## Cleon (Apr 22, 2011)

demiurge1138 said:


> Let's give them a +2 to saves vs. poison. Even numbered miscellaneous bonuses seem to be more popular.




+2 is fine by me.



demiurge1138 said:


> Also: the opposum currently is stated to be a Medium animal, although its AC includes the correct bonus for being Tiny.




Yes, they are Tiny.



demiurge1138 said:


> Do we want to make them familiar options? If so, might I suggest a bonus to Bluff as their associated skill? Although that would be a bit weird, since they use Disguise to appear dead. Was there a debate over the appropriate skill?




Don't much like a Bluff bonus. Climb seems a more appropriate associated skill, but I don't really care for that either.

How about letting them share the bonus on poison saves?


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2011)

Cleon said:


> How about letting them share the bonus on poison saves?




We could do that, but I was thinking it would be more fun to share a lesser version of feign death.  That way, master and familiar can both go "belly up" when danger rears its ugly head.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> We could do that, but I was thinking it would be more fun to share a lesser version of feign death.  That way, master and familiar can both go "belly up" when danger rears its ugly head.




So a bonus to Bluff and Disguise checks when pretending to be dead?

I'd worry that might not see much use in game, the master is more likely to benefit from a poison save bonus.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So a bonus to Bluff and Disguise checks when pretending to be dead?
> 
> I'd worry that might not see much use in game, the master is more likely to benefit from a poison save bonus.




True.  I was trying to come up with something different from other familiars, but I suppose poison bonus will work.


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

Does every choice need to be optimal?   Well, the poison bonus is ok, but feign death would have been fun.


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## Cleon (Apr 26, 2011)

Shade said:


> True.  I was trying to come up with something different from other familiars, but I suppose poison bonus will work.




Well we could go for a skill bonus, maybe Climb or Survival, but I like poison save a bit more.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2011)

Updated.

Anyone know the length and weight ranges of opossums?


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

They seem to range from the size of a mouse to a cat.  Since we made them tiny, how about up to 1 ft and 10 lb?  That's not a big cat, but it is probably about right.

Didn't we decide to make the poison bonus to masters +2?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

We did decide upon +2.  I'll update it.

I found the following here:

An adult opossum is 2 to 3 feet long and weighs between 4 and 12 pounds.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2011)

Well, the many different species of opossums have widely varying sizes according to wikipedia, but I'm happy with that size and weight.


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## Cleon (May 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> We did decide upon +2.  I'll update it.
> 
> I found the following here:
> 
> An adult opossum is 2 to 3 feet long and weighs between 4 and 12 pounds.




That's the size of a Virginia Opossum (_Didelphis virginiana_), the largest species of Opossum. I would like to lower the minimum weight a bit or point out these are big examples. Oh, and we should mention the length includes the tail...This entry represents the larger species of opossum, about the size of a cat. Such opossums are typically 2 to 3 feet long (up to half of which is tail) and weigh between 2 and 12 pounds.​I'd also suggest modifying the description and tactics a bit:

Opossums are omnivorous marsupials that can live nearly anywhere they can find food and dry, secure places to den in. An opossum will use a number of dens  within its home range, they usually lair in  hollow trees and logs, brushpiles or the abandoned lairs of other animals. A nest of leaves and grass is  usually made at the den site.

Opossums feed on insects, earthworms, small mammals, fruits, grains, plants, and carrion.

This entry represents the larger species of opossum, about the size of a  cat. Such opossums are typically 2 to 3 feet long (up to half of which  is tail) and weigh between 2 and 12 pounds.

An opossum familiar grants its master a +2 bonus on saving throws against poison.

*COMBAT*
If threatened, an opossum will try to escape up a nearby tree or feign death. If  cornered, it exhibits a threatening posture, hissing and making low  growls. A desperate opossum may bite.


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## freyar (May 2, 2011)

Once again, looks good!


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## Shade (May 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Once again, looks good!




Agreed.  Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (May 5, 2011)

Think so.


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## Shade (May 6, 2011)

Did we do a gopher yet?

Mammal HD AC #App. #Att Dmg/Att MV XP Value Notes 
Gopher 1-3 hp 8 1-20 1 1 12, Br 2 27   

Gophers live in large colonies burrowed into the soil of the plains. They have acute senses of hearing and smell. For each gopher encountered, another 1d10 are hiding in the burrows nearby.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Two (1989).


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## freyar (May 6, 2011)

Anything to do beside drop disease from a rat?


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## Shade (May 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Anything to do beside drop disease from a rat?




Add a burrow speed?  Different feats and skill modifiers?


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## freyar (May 12, 2011)

Ok, drop the climb and swim speeds and give them a 10 ft burrow?  I can live with that.

Change Stealthy to Alertness?


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## Cleon (May 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Think so.




The opossum'll do. A quick glance through didn't see anything wrong.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, drop the climb and swim speeds and give them a 10 ft burrow?  I can live with that.
> 
> Change Stealthy to Alertness?




That should about cover it.

They're not much use as is, apart from adding a familiar option and mentioning their holes are hazards to horses I can't think of much game-related to add.

Unless you fancy adding a Dire Gopher?


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## Cleon (May 16, 2011)

Might as well do a working draft based on what we have so far:


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## Cleon (May 16, 2011)

*Gopher Working Draft*

*Gopher* [Based on SRD Rat]
 Tiny Animal
*Hit Dice:*  ¼d8 (1 hp)
*Initiative:*  +1
*Speed:*  15 ft. (3 squares), burrow 15 ft.
*Armor Class:*  13 (+2 size, +1 Dex), touch 13, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:*  +0/-11
*Attack:*  Bite +4 melee (1d4-3)
*Full Attack:*  Bite +4 melee (1d4-3)
*Space/Reach:*  2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:*  —
*Special Qualities:*  Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:*  Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1
*Abilities:*  Str 4, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Climb +1, Hide +12*, Listen +3, Spot +3, Move Silently +5, Swim +1
*Feats:*  Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:*  Any
*Organization:* Solitary of family (2-5)
 *Challenge Rating:*  1/8
*Advancement:*  —
*Level Adjustment:*  —

_A heavily built rodent with protruding incisors, large cheek pouches and a short, thick tail. Its entire body and tail are covered in grey-brown fur the color of soil._

These herbivorous rodents thrive in any terrain where the ground is dry enough for their burrows. The statistics given above are for a true gopher, or pouched gopher, but the name "gopher" is used for other kinds of burrowing rodent that can be considered to have the same game statistics.

All gophers live in burrows, which they use for shelter and to store food (nuts and grain). Many an unwary animal or traveler has tripped over one of these "gopher holes".

True gophers are solitary creatures, their burrow will only house more  than one gopher when it is a mother and her immature offspring. Some  "gopher" burrowing rodents are social, connecting their own burrows with  those of neighbors to create extensive tunnel networks. The  plains-dwelling prairie dogs (see below) lives in colonies known as  towns or cities that can have populations in the hundreds or thousands. 	
 
A character with a gopher familiar gains a +2 bonus to Fortitude saves when the master and familiar are within 1 mile of each other.
 
A typical gopher is between six inches and a foot long, excluding its tail, and weighs about half a pound.

*COMBAT* 
Gophers usually run away and hide in their burrows when threatened. They bite only as a last resort.

*Skills:* Gophers have a +3 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. A gopher uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its Strength modifier for Climb and Swim checks.

*A gopher's racial bonus on Hide checks increases to +6 in areas of exposed earth, such as its burrow.

*Prairie Dog*
 A prairie dog is a ground squirrel that's about half the size of a true gopher, apply the following changes to its statistics (those statistics that are not listed are the same as the gopher described above):

*Prairie Dog*
*Initiative:*  +2
*Armor Class:*  14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:*  +0/-12
*Attack:*  Bite +4 melee (1d4-4)
*Full Attack:*  Bite +4 melee (1d4-4)
*Saves:*  Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
*Abilities:*  Str 2, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Climb +2, Hide +13*, Listen +3, Spot +3, Move Silently +6, Swim +2
*Organization:* Solitary, family (2-20), town (20-2000), or city (2000+)
 
A character with a prairie dog familiar gains a +2 bonus to Spot checks when the master and familiar are within 1 mile of each other.

Prairie dogs communicate with each other by barking. While not a language as such, these barks can convey more information than most animal calls (e.g. "fox approaching", "all clear") and identify individual prairie dogs. Their aptitude for understanding language is at least as good as a dog's, and they can be trained to come when called _by name_.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2011)

Hmm, I suggest tweaking the stats. Gophers don't seem as agile as rats, but are heftier (8oz to 2 lbs, approximately twice the weight of a typical rat).

So how about lowering the Dex and increasing the Strength?

They've also got hefty jaws for burrowing, so I'd increase their bite damage dice a stage.

Str 4, Dex 13, bite 1d4-3?


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## freyar (May 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, I suggest tweaking the stats. Gophers don't seem as agile as rats, but are heftier (8oz to 2 lbs, approximately twice the weight of a typical rat).
> 
> So how about lowering the Dex and increasing the Strength?
> 
> ...



That's all fair enough.

The familiar option seems worthwhile, just to give them some sort of point.  What kind of benefit do you think?


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## Shade (May 18, 2011)

Agreed to all that.

For the familiar benefit, perhaps a bonus on Balance checks (to avoid falling in the holes)?


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## Cleon (May 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed to all that.




I'll update the draft.



Shade said:


> For the familiar benefit, perhaps a bonus on Balance checks (to avoid falling in the holes)?




Bonus on Fort saves like a Rat?

Alertness? (Since they're always on the lookout for danger, maybe their the standard familiar's Alertness ability is "always on")

A bite attack?

I guess the Rat familiar's +2 Fort bonus is the best so far.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2011)

I've *updated the draft*.

I've added some descriptive text and a proposal for a "Prairie Dog" subentry. I think a prairie dog is different enough from a true gopher to merit its own stats. Note that the description in the Monstrous Manual matches a prairie dog type ground squirrel far better than it does a true gopher.


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## Shade (May 19, 2011)

I'd rather differentiate them from rat familiars.  I definitely like Alertness for the prairie dog familiar, and would be OK with it for gopher too.


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## Cleon (May 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd rather differentiate them from rat familiars.  I definitely like Alertness for the prairie dog familiar, and would be OK with it for gopher too.




I'm not suggesting Alertness for the prairie dog, but a nontyped bonus. The wizard/sorcerer will automatically get Alertness for having a familiar, the prairie dog's Listen/Spot bonus is on top of that.

Rather not give the gopher the same familiar bonus, since I haven't heard regular gophers are notable for their keen senses or being highly alert, while prairie dogs are.

Still, they may be hefty but they don't have a reputation for resistance to injury or disease like a rat does.

Let's see, how about Blind-Fight, since they're used to feeling their way around in the dark?


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## freyar (May 23, 2011)

If the prarie dog is just going to be a subentry, I don't think we should change very much.  Maybe just racial skill bonuses.

As for the familiar benefits, Blind-Fight works for the gopher.  For the prairie dog, maybe just Skill Focus (Spot) or even only a +2 bonus to Spot?  Alertness all the time seems maybe too good, especially if it stacks.


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## Shade (May 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> As for the familiar benefits, Blind-Fight works for the gopher.  For the prairie dog, maybe just Skill Focus (Spot) or even only a +2 bonus to Spot?  Alertness all the time seems maybe too good, especially if it stacks.




This works for me.


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## lordxaviar (May 26, 2011)

Shade said:


> I like the revisions.  Added to Homebrews.




I found your conversion on opposums as I was adding them to a wandering list.  I didnt like the filth fever  and my reason why below.


National Opossum Society

In general they present a far lower health risk to humans than do dogs and cats! They seem to have a naturally high level of immunity to most diseases. Example? Opossums are more resistant to rabies than any other mammal; cattle, goats, dogs, cats, sheep, and the ice cream man are far more susceptible to rabies!

Opossums feed on insects, earthworms, small mammals, fruits, grains, plants, and carrion.

need to add frogs, birds (especially chickens) eggs and snakes

descrip: Size of a cat; grey to black fur; black eyes; pink nose, feet and tail; black ears; and pointed nose
Hiss or growl and show their 50 sharp teeth when frightened;
Opossums are usually solitary and nomadic, staying in one area as long as food and water are easily available. Opossums are excellent tree climbers and spend much of their time aloft. They are aided in this by sharp claws, which dig into bark, and by a long prehensile (gripping) tail that can be used as an extra limb. Opossums nest in tree holes or in dens made by other animals.
One of the shortest lived mammals for its size, typically 2 to 4 years. Killed by many predators: humans (and cars), dogs, cats, owls, and larger wildlife.


Think the + for poison should be higher as well. as  " Opossums are actually immune to the venom of many pit vipers including rattlesnakes, copperheads and cottonmouths. The reason for this immunity is due to ntihemorrhagic and antineurotoxic antibodies in their blood.

Opossums are considered ophiophagous mammals, meaning that they are snake-eating mammals, which is why they are immune to snake venom

I would increase their hit die a bit also to a full hit die.. they can take a beating..

needs to be blended with yours


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## lordxaviar (May 26, 2011)

lordxaviar said:


> I found your conversion on opposums as I was adding them to a wandering list.  I didnt like the filth fever  and my reason why below.             needs to be blended with yours




I did: altered the speed too, they are not fast moving, also there environment they dont do well in the northern regions they (especially the tail) is subject to frostbite. (range in us is SE up to about the great lakes, very few above that and they dont like the mountains 

 With all that is published on how hardy they are and they are first and foremost carrion eaters, I upped their constitution to 12.

I also hate this 1d3-4 sillyness.. just say 1 or since having been bitten by one  I made them 1d2  1- 2 points is not a big deal.. cats should be as well,

Opossum
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20' (6 Sq), climb 20'.
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d2)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d2)
Space/Reach: 2.5’/0’
Special Attacks:
Special Qualities: Feign death, low-light vision, scent, venom resistant and immunity 
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Balance +6, Climb +10, Disguise +2*, Jump +6, Hide +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +2, Spot +3, Swim +6
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse-Bite
Environment: temperate woodlands, urban
Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (2-8)
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

This small creature the size of a cat has  grey to black fur; black eyes; pink nose, feet and tail; black ears; and pointed nose, they will Hiss or growl and show their 50 sharp teeth when frightened

Opossums are omnivorous marsupials that are usually solitary and nomadic, staying in one area as long as food and water are easily available.  They are basically nocturnal but will be seen scavenging in the twilight hours as well. Opossums are excellent tree climbers and spend much of their time aloft. They are aided in this by sharp claws, which dig into bark, and by a long prehensile (gripping) tail that can be used as an extra limb. They do not however hang from their tailsOpossums nest in tree holes or in dens made by other animals.
One of the shortest lived mammals for its size, typically 2 to 4 years. Killed by many predators: humans (and cars), dogs, cats, owls, and larger wildlife.

Opossums feed mainly on carrion but will eat insects, earthworms, small mammals, fruits, frogs, birds (even  chickens) eggs and snakes, and plants

This entry represents the larger species of opossum, about the size of a cat. Such opossums are typically 2 to 3 feet long (up to half of which is tail) and weigh between 5 and 16 pounds.

An opossum familiar grants its master a +4 bonus on saving throws against poison and is immune to snake venom

COMBAT

If threatened, an opossum will try to escape up a nearby tree or feign death. If cornered, it exhibits a threatening posture, hissing and making low growls. A desperate opossum may bite.

Feign Death (Ex): An opossum can play dead with great accuracy. It lies stiffly on its side and secretes a foul odor, so it looks and smells like a dead animal. Although able to smell, hear, and know what is going on, the opossum is effectively blind while feigning death.

A creature examining the opossum may attempt a Heal or Spot check opposed by the opossum's Disguise check to detect the ruse. The opossum gains a +8 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to feign death. 

Venom Resistant (Ex): Opossums have a +4 racial bonus on saves against poison as adults and are immune to snake venom.

Skills: Opossums have a +4 racial bonus on Balance and Swim checks. Opossums have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb, Jump and Swim checks.  +2 att for size

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Two (1989).


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## lordxaviar (May 26, 2011)

i converted to my set up for any who prefer

Opossum CR: ½ ;  Sz: Tiny Animal; H: ; W: ; Age: ; HD: 1d8; Hp: 4; Init: +2; Spd: 20’(6 Sq), climb 20’; AC: 14; (+2 size, +2 Dex ), T: 14, FF: 12; BaB:0; Grap: -12; Atk: +4 melee (1d2 Bite); Full Atk: +4 melee (1d2 Bite); Spc/Rch: 2.5’/0’; SA: ; SQ: Feign death, low-light vision, scent, venom resistant + immunity;  Lang: ; AL: N; Sv: F: +4, R: +4, W: +1; Abil: S: 3/-4, D: 15/+2, C: 12/+2, I: 1/-5, W: 12/+2, Ch: 4/-3 ;  Weapro: ; Skills: Balance +6, Climb +10, Disguise +2*, Jump +6, Hide +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +2, Spot +3, Swim +6; Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B);  Equip: ; Loot: ; Possess: ; Holdings: ; Treas: none; Tactics: Will run or feign death will attack only as last resort; RPGL: ; Descrip: This small creature the size of a cat has  grey to black fur; black eyes; pink nose, feet and tail; black ears; and pointed nose, they will Hiss or growl and show their 50 sharp teeth when frightened; History: ; Envir: ; Org: Solitary, pair, or family (2-8); Lv Adv: ; Exp: ; Increased/Decrease Ability Scores: ; 
Opossums are omnivorous marsupials that are usually solitary and nomadic, staying in one area as long as food and water are easily available.  They are basically nocturnal but will be seen scavenging in the twilight hours as well. Opossums are excellent tree climbers and spend much of their time aloft. They are aided in this by sharp claws, which dig into bark, and by a long prehensile (gripping) tail that can be used as an extra limb. They do not however hang from their tails. Opossums nest in tree holes or in dens made by other animals.
One of the shortest lived mammals for its size, typically 2 to 4 years. Killed by many predators: humans (and cars), dogs, cats, owls, and larger wildlife.
Opossums feed mainly on carrion but will eat insects, earthworms, small mammals, fruits, frogs, birds (even  chickens) eggs and snakes, and plants
This entry represents the larger species of opossum, about the size of a cat. Such opossums are typically 2 to 3 feet long (up to half of which is tail) and weigh between 5 and 16 pounds.
An opossum familiar grants its master a +4 bonus on saving throws against poison and is immune to snake venom

Combat: If threatened, an opossum will try to escape up a nearby tree or feign death. If cornered, it exhibits a threatening posture, hissing and making low growls. A desperate opossum may bite.
Feign Death (Ex): An opossum can play dead with great accuracy. It lies stiffly on its side and secretes a foul odor, so it looks and smells like a dead animal. Although able to smell, hear, and know what is going on, the opossum is effectively blind while feigning death.
A creature examining the opossum may attempt a Heal or Spot check opposed by the opossum's Disguise check to detect the ruse. The opossum gains a +8 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to feign death. 
Venom Resistant (Ex): Opossums have a +4 racial bonus on saves against poison as adults and are immune to snake venom.
Skills: Opossums have a +4 racial bonus on Balance and Swim checks. Opossums have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb, Jump and Swim checks. +2 att via Size
Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Two (1989).
1□□□□


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## Cleon (May 29, 2011)

lordxaviar said:


> I found your conversion on opposums as I was adding them to a wandering list.  I didnt like the filth fever  and my reason why below.




Dang it, I'd forgotten we'd left that Opossum with filth fever. It was a carry-over from downsizing the Dire Opossum.

If the SRD Rat doesn't have a diseased bite an Opossum certainly shouldn't, would Shade and Freyar be OK cutting the disease out of the Opossum?

I'd be OK lowering the speed too.


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## Cleon (May 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> If the prarie dog is just going to be a subentry, I don't think we should change very much.  Maybe just racial skill bonuses.
> 
> As for the familiar benefits, Blind-Fight works for the gopher.  For the prairie dog, maybe just Skill Focus (Spot) or even only a +2 bonus to Spot?  Alertness all the time seems maybe too good, especially if it stacks.




It's not ALL the time, just when it's within a mile of the master.

+2 Bonus to Spot is alright by me. It's not as high as a Hawk or Owl, but makes up for it by not being restricted to bright/shadowy light.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2011)

Cleon said:


> If the SRD Rat doesn't have a diseased bite an Opossum certainly shouldn't, would Shade and Freyar be OK cutting the disease out of the Opossum?
> 
> I'd be OK lowering the speed too.




I'm OK with both suggestions.



Cleon said:


> It's not ALL the time, just when it's within a mile of the master.
> 
> +2 Bonus to Spot is alright by me. It's not as high as a Hawk or Owl, but makes up for it by not being restricted to bright/shadowy light.




Make it so.


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm OK with both suggestions.




OK, that would make it as follows, which I think will do:

*Opossum*
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 1/2d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (4 squares), climb 15 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-4)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-4)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Feign death, low-light vision, scent, venom resistant 
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Balance +6, Climb +10, Disguise +2*, Jump +6, Hide +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +2, Spot +3, Swim +6
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (2-8)
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

_This small creature has thick gray fur on its body, and white fur on its head.  A long, prehensile tail trails behind it._

Opossums are omnivorous marsupials that can live nearly anywhere they  can find food and dry, secure places to den in. An opossum will use a  number of dens within its home range, usually making dens in hollow  trees and logs, brushpiles or the abandoned lairs of other animals. A  nest of leaves and grass is usually made at the den site.

Opossums feed on insects, earthworms, small mammals, fruits, grains, plants, and carrion.

This entry represents the larger species of opossum, about the size of a  cat. Such opossums are typically 2 to 3 feet long (up to half of which  is tail) and weigh between 2 and 12 pounds.

An opossum familiar grants its master a +2 bonus on saving throws against poison.

COMBAT

If threatened, an opossum will try to escape up a nearby tree or feign  death. If cornered, it exhibits a threatening posture, hissing and  making low growls. A desperate opossum may bite.

Feign Death (Ex): An opossum can play dead with great accuracy. It lies  stiffly on its side and secretes a foul odor, so it looks and smells  like a dead animal. Although able to smell, hear, and know what is going  on, the opossum is effectively blind while feigning death.

A creature examining the opossum may attempt a Heal or Spot check  opposed by the opossum's Disguise check to detect the ruse. The opossum  gains a +8 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to feign death. 

Venom Resistant (Ex):  Opossums have a +2 racial bonus on saves against poison.

Skills: Opossums have a +4 racial bonus on Balance and Swim checks.  Opossums have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can use their  Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb, Jump  and Swim checks.


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## lordxaviar (Jun 6, 2011)

made a couple of changes...but didnt address any of my other concerns. over look?

I made changes to the basic information from real animal information. neither here nor there really just more accurate and informative but no bother..

I still think higher hit dice, like i mentioned I have killed quite a few, they really can take a beating.

the poison point.. they are not just better able to withstand the effects of snake (some) venom...they are immune this should be looked at? 

my comment on the dam/atk well - I'll live if you dont have anything on it.


still have the disease

ooops I forgot, I altered in the description, the eating habits: as they are first and foremost a carrion eater.


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## Shade (Jun 6, 2011)

I'd rather not boost the HD.  I could live with Toughness as a bonus feat if others agree.

As for the Attack lines, are you referring to putting the Str penalty on the line?   It's standard format to do so, even if it seems pointless.  It also helps when applying a template to a critter on the fly (or if a spell is cast on it that modifies Str, etc.)


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## freyar (Jun 7, 2011)

Oy, I'd just like to get back to the gopher.


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## lordxaviar (Jun 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd rather not boost the HD.  I could live with Toughness as a bonus feat if others agree.
> 
> As for the Attack lines, are you referring to putting the Str penalty on the line?   It's standard format to do so, even if it seems pointless.  It also helps when applying a template to a critter on the fly (or if a spell is cast on it that modifies Str, etc.)




why not on the HD?  but i see the toughness as a bonus would do the same thing..

attack line.. now more so to the damage, only giving a creature the ability to cause 1 Hp of damage is silly, cats have the same situation. If you have ever tried to wrangle a cat, or opossum for that matter, you know they can cause quite a bit of damage.
 what I was getting at was that the damage in the end should end up 1 or 2 points (variable) so I guess it would be more like 1d6-4 which would give me the 1-2. they do have 50 teeth.

no comment on their immunity to snake venom and the changes to the descriptive text?

I am in season for my work..sorry I dont get on here enough to be of more help.  Funny I hate the opossum and here I am defending the critter in a way (or is that varmint)


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## lordxaviar (Jun 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Oy, I'd just like to get back to the gopher.




im at a loss...  Are you not trying to make creatures into 3.5 that were left out or never addressed in the first place?  Do you not want to get them right (as it were) and worthy of being printed by the old Wotc or even the ancient TSR and dragon?   let alone used by all of us crazy Dm's who actually set up ecosystems so our monsters make sense... (having scary intelligent players has always made this practical- saves dumb questions and explanations.)   But im sorry if I am annoying you.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm OK with the revised Opossum as it is, just with the speed changes and dropping the disease.

Many SRD versions of animals are poor reflections of the full capabilities of the species in question, so I don't mind doing the same for the Opossum.

As for making them tough to finish off, there are lots of animals like that which don't work that way in 3E. Besides, I think a trait like that would be better represented by a bonus feat in Diehard rather than Toughness.

Shall we get on with the Gopher?


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2011)

I think Cleon really sums up my thinking pretty well.


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## lordxaviar (Jun 8, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'm OK with the revised Opossum as it is, just with the speed changes and dropping the disease.
> 
> Many SRD versions of animals are poor reflections of the full capabilities of the species in question, so I don't mind doing the same for the Opossum.
> 
> ...




The object was to better the dire animal by fixing the norm. .. your interested in speed rather than reality.. 

diehard works good point.
Still think the poison immunity works, would make the dire that much more dangerous, 
especially to races that like to use poison.. Drow must hate the varmint. 

I jumped in here to get your input on stats, as I am new to 3.5 (being too much of a diehard 2.5 -er) and then a long break  I need the input of people of your caliber (thats all of you) to help, get my game on track.   Am I doing something wrong?  am I too much?


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2011)

Let's go for the gopher then!

Where were we again with our burrowing friends?

Ah, here's the *Working Draft*.

Any changes or additions?

I can see a few minor bits of grammar to polish up, but apart from that I'm pretty happy with it.


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## lordxaviar (Jun 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Let's go for the gopher then!
> 
> Where were we again with our burrowing friends?
> 
> ...




city?  2000+  extraneous information at best ya think?

Gophers usually live alone within their burrow system, except when females are caring for their young or during breeding season. Gopher densities can be as high as 60 or more per acre in irrigated alfalfa fields or in vineyards. Gophers reach sexual maturity about 1 year of age and can live up to 3 years. In nonirrigated areas, breeding usually occurs in late winter and early spring, resulting in 1 litter per year; in irrigated sites, gophers can produce up to 3 litters per year. Litters usually average 5 to 6 young.

so would be 
solitary, pair or family 2-8    not thousands...

other than that...looks good... have you done ground hogs yet... larger similar critter


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

Dammit, I forgot to remove the "plus disease" from the Opossum's bite damage in the attack and full attack lines.

*Updated Working Draft*.

I'm afraid Shade'll have to fix the homebrew.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

lordxaviar said:


> solitary, pair or family 2-8    not thousands..




The AD&D entry says gophers "live in large colonies burrowed into the soil of the plains", which suggests they're using gopher for a general-purpose burrowing rodent. As such, I'd like to leave the "thousands" in to include the more social species (e.g. prairie  dogs). 

Besides, if there's multiple gopher families in an area you'd count them together - it's not like a human city is considered an encounter with a single "house", even though an adventuring party usually only enters them one household at a time.

However, since I've separated out the Prairie Dog from the regular gopher we could give them separate Organizations.

The family size of 2-20 seems a bit too wide at the top for regular gophers, but fine for prairie dogs. The original AD&D gopher had No Appearing 2-5, which seems closer to a pouched gopher's litter size.

Let's see what Freyar and Shade think.


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## lordxaviar (Jun 10, 2011)

The AD&D entry says gophers "live in large colonies burrowed into the soil of the plains", which suggests they're using gopher for a general-purpose burrowing rodent. As such, I'd like to leave the "thousands" in to include the more social species (e.g. prairie  dogs). 

good point...though on the norm aminals their homework was rather shabby... they did tend to make up in dragon articles...love the one on dogs...


However, since I've separated out the Prairie Dog from the regular gopher we could give them separate Organizations.

The family size of 2-20 seems a bit too wide at the top for regular gophers, but fine for prairie dogs. The original AD&D gopher had No Appearing 2-5, which seems closer to a pouched gopher's litter size.


good here.

Hve you guys done dogs?  I know you, well shade says that you dont want to do any that have official 3.5 stats...but I think now that they (hasbro) is done with it, we should fix their mistakes or just omissions... I posted acouple of monsters under homebrews that all I did was add back some of the colorful back ground and society information from the previous edition


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2011)

Umm, lordxaviar's suggested solitary, pair or family 2-8 gopher org sounds fine.  I'd like to keep that and just add a "town" for the prairie dog; wikipedia says their towns can have up to 25 or so family units over hundreds of acres.  So up to 200 or 300 maybe?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2011)

lordxaviar said:


> Hve you guys done dogs?  I know you, well shade says that you dont want to do any that have official 3.5 stats...but I think now that they (hasbro) is done with it, we should fix their mistakes or just omissions... I posted acouple of monsters under homebrews that all I did was add back some of the colorful back ground and society information from the previous edition




I'm not really interested in "fixing" anything that has official conversions at this time.  I'm more interested in finishing up the remaining unconverted creatures (of which we still have quite a few).  That said, I'm sure we'll eventually get around to some of the variant wild dogs from Dragon Magazine.



freyar said:


> Umm, lordxaviar's suggested solitary, pair or family 2-8 gopher org sounds fine.  I'd like to keep that and just add a "town" for the prairie dog; wikipedia says their towns can have up to 25 or so family units over hundreds of acres.  So up to 200 or 300 maybe?




Works for me.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

lordxaviar said:


> Hve you guys done dogs?  I know you, well shade says that you dont want to do any that have official 3.5 stats...but I think now that they (hasbro) is done with it, we should fix their mistakes or just omissions... I posted acouple of monsters under homebrews that all I did was add back some of the colorful back ground and society information from the previous edition




We've done a few "special breed" dogs, like Saluqis and St Cuthbert's hounds, but since regular dogs have official stats already reworking them is outside our remit.

Besides, the dogs aren't _that_ bad compared to some of the SRD critters.


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## lordxaviar (Jun 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm not really interested in "fixing" anything that has official conversions at this time.  I'm more interested in finishing up the remaining unconverted creatures (of which we still have quite a few).  That said, I'm sure we'll eventually get around to some of the variant wild dogs from Dragon Magazine.




I understand but since there is no more Official anything for 3.5 I think its open game to fix there screw ups... and put back the great information that was "official" once...  but I agree there are plenty of yet to be converted critters.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2011)

lordxaviar said:


> I understand but since there is no more Official anything for 3.5 I think its open game to fix there screw ups... and put back the great information that was "official" once...  but I agree there are plenty of yet to be converted critters.




I prefer the old crunch too, and have restatted some of the 3E monsters to be more like their original incarnations (see my "Finishing off the Mimics" thread and and Building a Better Otyugh thread for examples). Still, that shouldn't be the focus of this forum if for no other reason that we shouldn't be trampling _*too*_ hard on the OGL's toes.

Besides, we've got plenty of unconverted monsters to sort out.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2011)

Ok, I've lost track in all this conversation.  Anything left for gophers and prairie dogs?


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, I've lost track in all this conversation.  Anything left for gophers and prairie dogs?




Well we were talking about tweaking the Gopher's organization in the *Working Draft*, e.g.:

Gopher: Solitary of family (2-5)
Prairie Dog: Solitary, family (2-20), town (20-2000), or city (2000+)

True gophers are solitary creatures, their burrow will only house more than one gopher when it is a mother and her immature offspring. Some "gopher" burrowing rodents are social, connecting their own burrows with those of neighbors to create extensive tunnel networks. The plains-dwelling prairie dogs (see below) lives in colonies known as towns or cities that can have populations in the hundreds or thousands.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2011)

Ok, I thought we'd settled that already.  Is that all?


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, I thought we'd settled that already.  Is that all?




I believe so, unless you can come up with any corrections or additions.

Might as well update the *Working Draft* with those Organizations.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

Was their an updated working draft of the oppossum as well?


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Was their an updated working draft of the oppossum as well?




Yes, *This One*.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Yes, *This One*.




Thanks!  I've updated that one in Homebrews as well.   

Someone requested variant dogs...


*Canids, wild*
Canids are very successful predators and are common in their native haunts. The number encountered can be highly variable, except in the case of solitary species such as the fox. In some cases two ranges are shown for number appearing, one for times and places in which prey is small or scarce (the lower number) and one for those in which prey is large and abundant (the larger number).  Wolves, for instance, are found in greater numbers during the winter, when they hunt deer and moose, than in the summer, when they hunt mice and rabbits. As indicated in the Monster Manual, these ranges are to be used as guidelines, not rules. For instance, several otherwise separate groups of canids might gather and mingle where food is superabundant: wolves scavenging at the site of a battle, hunting dogs where large herds of animals are on the move, or foxes in a mouse-rich meadow.  It is suggested that 5% of encounters with canids should be in the vicinity of a large carcass. In such a case, there is a 25% chance that 1-2 other groups of canids (chosen at random from the appropriate types) will also be present, and a 25% chance (checked separately) that another carnivore or group of carnivores is in attendance. The largest, most numerous, and hungriest animals will have taken possession of the kill, and the others will dispute this or wait for an opportunity to steal or scavenge.

Canids are all at least as speedy as humans, though none of them are quite so fast as a horse or deer. It is noteworthy that canids are not slowed as much by undergrowth or rough ground as humans are, so that even the stubby-legged bushdog can be a good deal faster than a man under certain conditions. The smaller canids (those weighing less than 40 pounds) swim at 6”, while the larger ones swim at 9”. Most are handicapped by the fact that they must keep their heads above water, since unlike humans they cannot submerge themselves without getting water in their nostrils. An exception to this is the bushdog, which can immerse itself without difficulty and can swim at 9.) despite its small size. Only dholes and bushdogs will willingly enter the water. With the exception of foxes, no canids can climb.

The smallest canids are given two damage ranges for the bite, the larger amount being applicable to creatures less than three times their weight and the larger amount being applicable to creatures of more than three times their weight. This reflects the fact that these animals are deadly to their usual prey, but less so when larger animals are concerned. Note that some canids of approximately the same size are given different amounts of bite damage. This is a reflection of differences in anatomy and behavior.

The sizes given for the various canids are approximate averages to the nearest 5 pounds. Exceptional individuals may weigh as little as half or as much as twice the amount given. Males are typically larger than females.

Canids encountered in the lair during the season of greatest abundance (spring, or the beginning of the rains) will always include one male and one female, even in solitary species, and 2-8 pups. All of the adults help care for and guard these pups, which are usually kept in a cave or burrow. Among social canids, the pups will typically be the offspring of the dominant female (the one with the largest hit-point total) and her chosen mate (usually the dominant male).  Pups have no effective attack. There is a 30% chance that they will be young enough to be tameable.

Though canids of a suitable age can be tamed, they cannot be made over into domestic dogs. They will certainly be affectionate if they are well treated, but taming and training are two very Solitary canids are effectively untrainable; a fox will never be more than a companion. Semi-social canids (coyotes, dingoes, and jackals) are only a little easier to handle. Like solitary canids, semi-social ones do not understand dominance and submission, and may retaliate if they are disciplined. As adults they may wander away from their handlers, just as in the wild they eventually leave their parents. The social canids (bushdogs, dholes, feral dogs, hunting dogs, wolves, and dire wolves) can be trained as well as tamed. With the exception of feral dogs, though, they will seem aloof and indifferent by comparison with domestic dogs, and since they are less dependent on approval they are more difficult to teach. At least, though, they can be persuaded to accept their handlers and perhaps a few others as pack members, preferably senior pack members. In any case, a tamed canid will always be suspicious of new people and new things, and will not adapt well to civilized life. It may seem unpredictable because it does not always understand human signals and because wild canids are often difficult to “read”. These misunderstandings may have tragic results.

Some of the abovementioned difficulties can be mitigated if a spell such as animal friendship is used, or if the handler makes frequent use of speak with animals, but charm spells will be ineffective since the problem lies not with how well the animal loves its handler but how well it expresses that emotion. Feral dogs do not present the above problems, since they retain something of their domestic ancestors’ instincts, although they too may seem unruly by comparison with true domestic dogs.

Coyotes, dingoes, wolves, and jackals are all fertile with domestic or feral dogs and with each other, though they do not normally interbreed. The offspring, themselves fertile, are intermediate in most characteristics, though from a human point of view crosses of domestic with wild canids look and act “wild” and present the training problems described above, being difficult to train and seemingly unpredictable. A dog-wolf cross, for instance, inherits the wolf’s aloofness and hostility toward strangers, and this, along with its large size and powerful jaws, might suggest that it would be a good guard dog. However, it shows a wolf’s reluctance to bark, and it may show wolflike caution and simply avoid an intruder rather than risk an attack.

Canids of all sorts have keen senses of smell and hearing. In good light, a canid’s sense of sight is less exceptional, since canids do not perceive colors and haven.t the sharpness of vision that humans have. However, a canid can see about as well by moonlight as by daylight, and can see as well on a moonless night as a human would under a full bright moon. A canid.s hearing allows it a 20% bonus to its chances of detecting hidden or invisible creatures, where applicable. This bonus may be halved or doubled according to circumstances. A similar 20% bonus is granted because of the canid’s keen sense of smell, as appropriate. This bonus too may be halved or doubled as circumstances warrant.  An alert wolf, for instance, can detect a human for quite some distance downwind, and canids can even distinguish different individuals of the same species. A canid’s nose also allows it to track as an onyx dog (DMG, page 144).

Canids are opportunists, and will eat practically anything: fresh meat, carrion, fruit, insects, and even some roots and grasses, including what humans would regard as garbage. Dholes, hunting dogs, and bushdogs are more exclusively predacious than the others, while foxes are best described as omnivores with a preference for meat.  The others fall somewhere in between, with the larger and more social sorts showing a greater preference for hunting.  Even the largest canid is cautious, and will seldom attack an animal of its own size or larger that fights back. A wound can be fatal, even for an individual that is supported by the rest of the pack; the animal may well starve before it recovers, even living on “charity”. This doesn’t mean that hunting canids will leave humans and their domestic animals in peace, however. They may test them to see if they are able to run away or defend themselves, and if they uncover weakness they will exploit it. However, humans (and, in an AD&D game world, human-like creatures) are not on any canid’s “preferred” list. They are too likely to have nasty surprises on hand, such as swords and spears, and after centuries of association canids know this instinctively.  Unless they are starving and desperate, they will avoid humans entirely.

Each canid has a distinct odor, which may be detectable to the human nose (foxes can be quite rank). Whether or not humans detect and approve of these odors, other canids can detect them, and they almost universally disapprove. Treat this as “hate” on any interspecies reaction roll. Domestic and feral dogs and dingoes are mutally acceptable, however, as any canid which has been raised with the smell in question won’t be bothered by it.

*BUSHDOG*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 1/4
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1/1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (15 lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: I/5 + 1/hp

Bushdog: A bushdog is a small brownish canid of robust build, covered with coarse, sparse hair. It has a short, broad skull, powerful jaws, short legs, small ears, and a short tail, and looks somewhat like a heavily built dachshund, or a cross between an otter and a small dog. With their low-slung bodies and webbed feet, bushdogs are well suited to the heavy undergrowth and abundant water of their native haunts. They live in small packs and communicate using various whistles, clicks, chirps, and squeals. When excited, they give voice to highpitched, metallic barks. Bushdogs regard nearly anything of suitable size as prey, and will pursue large water rodents, small deer, and birds up to the size of a rhea as well as lesser game. Young bushdogs are not difficult to tame and train. Their expressive faces make their moods as easy to read as those of dogs and wolves, making the task an easy one. Tame bushdogs are affectionate and gentle as they are homely. Bushdogs are tropical, living in the forest or near water and away from settled areas.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #102 (1985).


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2011)

Make a small dog and then give them an Ex ability to move unimpeded through undergrowth?


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Make a small dog and then give them an Ex ability to move unimpeded through undergrowth?




I don't mind some kind of SQ for that, but we'd better reduce their land speed as well, since they're slow for canids.

There's also this:

"the bushdog, which can immerse itself without difficulty and can swim at 9”) despite its small size. Only dholes and bushdogs will willingly enter the water"

Racial bonus to Swim? Swim Speed? Use Dex instead of Str for Swim?

Bushdogs also seem to be a lot rarer than this _Dragon_ article suggests. They're on the Red List as a "Vulnerable" species.

Maybe they're more abundant in AD&D-Earth than ours?


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

Statwise they're littler than the 20-50 pound Small Dog.

A typical Bushdog is about the size of a large housecat, 10-15 pounds or so.

So, I'd definitely lower the Strength and possibly some of their other physical stats. Maybe even nudge them down to Tiny. 

If the SRD did it to poor kitty these little puppies might suffer a bit of shrinkage too.


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2011)

Tiny is ok, so I don't mind reducing the Str and possibly Con appropriately.  I'd also agree to a racial bonus on Swim along with Dex instead of Str.  I'm not quite sold on a swim speed, but I guess I could be.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Tiny is ok, so I don't mind reducing the Str and possibly Con appropriately.  I'd also agree to a racial bonus on Swim along with Dex instead of Str.  I'm not quite sold on a swim speed, but I guess I could be.




I'd rather make them Small, since they're well above the normal 8 pound upper limit of Tiny and it means they've got some Reach.

As for the Swim question, I prefer racial bonus plus Dex substitution.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> As for the Swim question, I prefer racial bonus plus Dex substitution.




Ditto here.

Added to Homebrews.

Should we retain the Jump bonus from Small dog?


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Ditto here.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Should we retain the Jump bonus from Small dog?




Their short legs don't suggest they'd be much good at jumping - their leg proportions don't look much longer than a dachshund - so I'd say cut it.

They're about a third the weight of the SRD Dog, suggesting -2 Str.

Personally, I'd make it -4 Str and -2 to Dex, since the SRD Dog is over-statted and the original Bushdog had 1/4 Hit Dice.

Make the Bushdog a half-HD creature like a cat, which is a similar size?

HD 1/2, Str 9, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6 ?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2011)

I agree with all that.

Updated.

With the stubby legs, lower speed to 30 ft. as well?


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> I agree with all that.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> With the stubby legs, lower speed to 30 ft. as well?




Definitely.

The original had a 12" move, so we should match it with 30 ft. speed.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2011)

Environment: Warm forests?

Challenge Rating: 1/4?

A typical bushdog is x feet long and weighs 10 to 15 pounds.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Environment: Warm forests?
> 
> Challenge Rating: 1/4?
> 
> A typical bushdog is x feet long and weighs 10 to 15 pounds.




A typical bushdog is a few inches over 2 feet long (not including 4-6 inches of tail) and weighs 10 to 15 pounds.

That challenge rating seems about right. They are roughly the same threat as a housecat - Commoners beware!

Oh, the bite's melee attack should either be +0 (if it doesn't have Weapon Finesse as a bonus) or +3 (with Weapon Finesse). I think it should get WF.

Shouldn't its skills have "Bushdogs use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for *Swim* checks, whichever is higher", not Climb?

That also means their Swim works out to +6, not +5.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2011)

Sounds good.  Updated.


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Updated.




So are we done apart from the barking description?


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So are we done apart from the barking description?




Yep.  Mutt I'll never get it done if you keep hounding me.


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep.  Mutt I'll never get it done if you keep hounding me.




Yowl not get it finished faster by yapping about it.


----------



## freyar (Jun 25, 2011)

Looks pretty good.  You guys were fast!


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good.  You guys were fast!




We're the running dogs of the roleplaying-industrial complex.

The running gets us finished faster.


----------



## Shade (Jul 1, 2011)

Updated.

Does the flavor text look labtastic?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Does the flavor text look labtastic?




Bushdogs don't have long fur. It'd not be of much use in a hot, humid climate.

I'm not that fond of the phrasing of the first paragraph of background info, the "diurnal hunter found primarily" and "strong swimmers due to the skin growing between their toes" don't find much favour with me, although there's nothing technically wrong with them.

The "keeping in constant communication with frequent whines due to the poor visibility of their natural habitats" is cumbersome.

How's this:

A bushdog is a small canine that frequents wet savannahs and  tropical forests. It feeds mostly on large rodents, hunting them by day and then lairing in  a hollow log or cavity. Bushdogs typically live in packs that keep in constant communication with whining calls. The dense vegetation of their native habitat means they often can't see one another.

Bushdogs are  strong swimmers, with skin growing between their toes that gives them partially webbed feet.

A typical bushdog is a few inches over 2 feet long (not including 4-6 inches of tail) and weighs 10 to 15 pounds.

*COMBAT*

A bush dog fights with its teeth. They would rather run away from humanoids, but may attack in self defense. A pack of bushdogs will fight together to protect each other or tackle prey.


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2011)

Looks great!


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2011)

I was just working from Wikipedia on that.  Yours is better.

Updated.

Here's the next one from that article...

*Coyote*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-2/2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 1-1
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (30 lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE:  I/10  + 1/hp

This is a versatile, mid-sized predator, able to take prey as large as sheep or goats, although coyotes generally restrict themselves to less difficult foods, such as mice and berries. The typical coyote is greyish, with long fur and long legs. Coyotes are wary and difficult to catch; they are less odorous than foxes and therefore more difficult to track, and over long distances they can outpace the fastest coursing hounds. Semi-social, coyotes can be tamed but not trained. They may be found in any climate from subarctic to subtropical and in any sort of terrain, even invading the mountainous parts of the tropics. They thrive in both settled and domestic areas.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #102 (1985).


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2011)

First thing to decide for these is size, I guess.  I usually think of coyotes as being on the small side of Small, which I guess makes sense given the bushdog's size.  Agreed?


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> First thing to decide for these is size, I guess.  I usually think of coyotes as being on the small side of Small, which I guess makes sense given the bushdog's size.  Agreed?




Agreed.


----------



## freyar (Jul 5, 2011)

Ok, then.  1HD.  the 1-1 suggests maybe a lowish Con, but I'm not sure I'd agree.  The Small dog has Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; if we drop the Con down to 9, I'd really want to compensate by boosting Str and Dex.  The bite should also be better than 1d3 given the common dog's 1d4 dice; coyotes do a real number on domestic dogs and cats.

Here's a compromise: Str 17, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6, damage 1d4+3.  Thoughts?


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, then.  1HD.  the 1-1 suggests maybe a lowish Con, but I'm not sure I'd agree.  The Small dog has Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; if we drop the Con down to 9, I'd really want to compensate by boosting Str and Dex.  The bite should also be better than 1d3 given the common dog's 1d4 dice; coyotes do a real number on domestic dogs and cats.
> 
> Here's a compromise: Str 17, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6, damage 1d4+3.  Thoughts?




I think the Strength is far too high, but can go for the rest.  I definitely don't want a Con penatly, and can accept the higher Dex as coyotes can sometimes grab birds so they must be fairly agile!


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, then.  1HD.  the 1-1 suggests maybe a lowish Con, but I'm not sure I'd agree.  The Small dog has Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; if we drop the Con down to 9, I'd really want to compensate by boosting Str and Dex.  The bite should also be better than 1d3 given the common dog's 1d4 dice; coyotes do a real number on domestic dogs and cats.
> 
> Here's a compromise: Str 17, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6, damage 1d4+3.  Thoughts?




I think the Strength is far too high, but can go for the rest.  I definitely don't want a Con penatly, and can accept the higher Dex as coyotes can sometimes grab birds so they must be fairly agile!


----------



## freyar (Jul 5, 2011)

Would you go for Str 15 or want to stick with Str 13?  I guess Str 13 does sound more accurate, but then I might want some other boost somehow.  Maybe in skill bonuses or bonus feats (like Endurance).


----------



## Cleon (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, then.  1HD.  the 1-1 suggests maybe a lowish Con, but I'm not sure I'd agree.  The Small dog has Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; if we drop the Con down to 9, I'd really want to compensate by boosting Str and Dex.  The bite should also be better than 1d3 given the common dog's 1d4 dice; coyotes do a real number on domestic dogs and cats.
> 
> Here's a compromise: Str 17, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6, damage 1d4+3.  Thoughts?




There isn't that much difference between a Coyote and a Jackal, and _Sandstorm_ says just use a Small Dog's statistics for a Jackal.

There's also the little matter that the SRD stats for a Dog says "They also can be used for small wild canines such as coyotes, jackals, and African wild dogs."

I'd rather just leave it at that.

Besides, I definitely wouldn't increase the bite damage, Str or Dex. The Small Dog is already somewhat overendowned in Str and Dex (Don't think of as being an average mutt, an SRD Dog's stats are more representative of a particularly vigorous Dobermann or Alsation). You're proposing a Coyote that's a lot stronger than a Wolf which is, frankly, ridiculous. One reason that there are a lot more Coyotes in the US now than there used to be is that Wolves habitually kill Coyotes, and now there aren't many wolves about they don't cull the Coyotes.

If we are going to give Coyotes separate stats from the SRD Dog I'd rather go for 1 HD, keep a Small Dog's Con and Dex, and drop the Str to 11 or so.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, that's true, I didn't compare to wolf stats, just dogs.  If we want to consider them to be SRD dogs, that's ok by me.  But I do think coyotes should have some boost compared to domestic dogs; maybe a better feat selection or bonus feats.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, that's true, I didn't compare to wolf stats, just dogs. If we want to consider them to be SRD dogs, that's ok by me. But I do think coyotes should have some boost compared to domestic dogs; maybe a better feat selection or bonus feats.




Craft Wondrous Iem?

We could also give it immunity to falling damage.


----------



## freyar (Jul 6, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Craft Wondrous Iem?
> 
> We could also give it immunity to falling damage.


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Craft Wondrous Iem?
> 
> We could also give it immunity to falling damage.




Craft Acme Item.

That type of coyote would need a lower Wis, and probably a stiff penalty on Sense Motive checks.


----------



## freyar (Jul 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> Craft Acme Item.
> 
> That type of coyote would need a lower Wis, and probably a stiff penalty on Sense Motive checks.



And DieHard or similar ability.

All joking aside, do we want to bother with this conversion?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, that's true, I didn't compare to wolf stats, just dogs.  If we want to consider them to be SRD dogs, that's ok by me.  But I do think coyotes should have some boost compared to domestic dogs; maybe a better feat selection or bonus feats.




Well they could have some boost to aid their survival in the wild, bot I don't think they should be tougher in a fight than the SRD Dog.

Those stats would seem to represent a fairly big, powerful and athletic dog. Certainly one significantly bigger than a Coyote. The latter may easily overpower a pet dog, but it would likely lose against a trained wolfhound and the like, which I think is what those SRD Small Dog stats represent.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> And DieHard or similar ability.
> 
> All joking aside, do we want to bother with this conversion?




I'm not fussed.

On the one hand, the SRD Small Dog says those stats are also for a Coyote, so it does seem surplus to requirements.

On the other paw, it is different enough from a 2 HD, 50 pound dog to be worth statting, so I'm game for it.

Oh, what they heck, why don't we do it! We did a Gorilla instead of an Ape, so why not a Coyote instead of a Small Dog?


----------



## freyar (Jul 8, 2011)

Ok, sure then, let's go for it.  1HD and modify Small dog stats?


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## Cleon (Jul 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, sure then, let's go for it.  1HD and modify Small dog stats?




Yup. I'm thinking we should cut the Str to 9 (based on a Wolf Downsized to Small), but keep the Dex 17 and Con 15.

Definitely 1 HD.

+4 racial bonuses to Survival and Jump like a Dog.

Alertness like a Dog or Weapon Focus like a Wolf?

I'm tempted to give it WF (bite) plus a racial bonus to Spot and Listen. Maybe Survival as well.
i.e.

*Hit Dice:* 1d8+2 (6 hp)
*Abilities:* Str 9, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Feats:* Track (B), Weapon Focus (Bite)
*Skill Ranks:* Jump 2, Listen 0, Spot 0, Survival 2*

*Skills:* A coyote have a +4 racial bonus to Jump, Listen and Spot checks. *Coyotes have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

Alternatively, we could give it Alertness as a Bonus Feat, +4 racial to Jump and Scent Tracking, distribute the SPs Listen 1, Spot 1, Survival 2.

Hmm, just noticed the SRD Dog's Jump modifier is screwed up. It should be at least +9 from its +1 Str bonus, +4 racial bonus, and +4 speed adjustment.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2011)

Seems you're right on the dog's Jump modifier.  I wonder if that's one of the things fixed in Cooper's Corrected Creature Codex.

I'd give it Weapon Focus or maybe Weapon Finesse to beat down the attack penalty from the low Str.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems you're right on the dog's Jump modifier.  I wonder if that's one of the things fixed in Cooper's Corrected Creature Codex.
> 
> I'd give it Weapon Focus or maybe Weapon Finesse to beat down the attack penalty from the low Str.




Weapon Finesse would give more bang for the buck.

Time for a Working Draft, methinks.

EDIT: We could give it Weapon Focus AND Finesse, like we did the Bushdog, but I don't think it's necessary.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2011)

*Coyote*
Small Animal
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+2 (6 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class:* 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–5
*Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d4-1)
*Full Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d4-1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 9, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Jump +9, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +3*
*Feats:* Track (B), Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Any land
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or family (2–8)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

_Description._

A typical coyote is 2½ feet long (not including tail), stands 2 feet high at the shoulder, and weighs about 30 pounds.

*COMBAT*

Coyotes normally flee from threats. They bite if forced to fight.

*Skills:* A coyote has a +4 racial bonus to Jump, Listen, and Spot checks. *Coyotes have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2011)

A good start.  Consider these lines:



> Coyotes are wary and difficult to catch; they are less odorous than foxes and therefore more difficult to track, and over long distances they can outpace the fastest coursing hounds. Semi-social, coyotes can be tamed but not trained.




An SQ to make them hard to Track?  Endurance as bonus feat?  A racial bonus to the DC to train them?


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## Mortis (Jul 14, 2011)

> they are less odorous than foxes and therefore more difficult to track





freyar said:


> An SQ to make them hard to Track?



I don't think that is really appropriate. My reading of it is that the coyote gives off the same amount of scent (maybe at bit more) as most animals. It suggests to me that it should be the fox, if anything, that should grant a bonus to being tracked.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2011)

I support Endurance as bonus feat, and possibly a small racial bonus to the DC to train them.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> I support Endurance as bonus feat, and possibly a small racial bonus to the DC to train them.




Endurance as a bonus feat suits me.

I would be against the "easy to scent" SQ. We can save that for the fox.

Not in favour of the higher DC for "Rear A Wild Animal" checks. Canines are easier to domesticate than most other animals, so logically we'd have to add that SQ to almost all the animals we convert!


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2011)

Let's just go with Endurance (B), then.


----------



## freyar (Jul 15, 2011)

Sounds fair.  Anything else to them, really?


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds fair.  Anything else to them, really?




Probably not.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Probably not.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.




It's missing a description.

_A wild canine resembling a long-legged wolf, but smaller_

Coyotes are a small species of wild dog. They are highly adaptable, and can live in almost any sort of terrain, they even scavenge for food in areas settled by humanoids. These predators occasionally kill small herd animals such as goats, but mostly eat rodents, birds, other small animals, and berries.


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2011)

Updated.

Moving along...

*Dhole*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 4-16
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 1+1
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (40 lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE:  I/20  + 1/hp

The dhole, or red dog, resembles a domestic mongrel at first glance, but it carries its bushy tail low and has reddish fur, short legs, and a short muzzle that has a unique profile: the line from skulltop to nosetip is convex rather than concave.

Dholes hunt in large, highly cooperative packs, and they chatter when they are excited (they seldom bark). Aggressive and bold, they will attack even the largest herbivores, though they prefer deer-sized game. They have been known to drive away or kill competing predators, including tigers. Dholes trot tirelessly after their chosen prey, following it until it weakens and is suddenly vulnerable to a sudden coordinated rush. What they lack in sprinting speed, dholes make up for in endurance.

Unlike other canids they are fond of water; it is difficult to escape them. Dholes hunt by day, or on moonlit nights. Dholes show little fear of humans, but are not known to attack them either. They can be tamed if captured when young, but are perhaps more difficult to handle than some other social canids might be because of their relatively inexpressive faces. Dholes live in both the forest and the steppe in temperate to subarctic climes. They survive in both settled and wilderness areas.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #102 (1985).

Dhole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Moving along...
> 
> *Dhole*




Not sure that these merit a conversion, there seems very little to distinguish them from a regular Small Dog.

Hmm, I suppose we could give them some pack-fighting special attack, since Dholes specialize in en masse attacks against much larger animals. Packs have been known to take on tigers.

Better add a racial bonus to Swim checks too, I suppose, since they're supposed to be capable swimmers.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 16, 2011)

Now there are accounts of packs of dholes killing tigers, but the tiger killing and wounding many dholes in the process (from 5 to 15 dholes in the ones I found after rummaging around the internet).

I've been doing some number crunching, and that performance doesn't require any "pack hunting" boost to a Small Dog, just a willingness to take casualties.

*SRD Dog vs Tiger
Dog* (AC 15, *HP* 6, *Attacks:* Bite +2 melee (1d4+1), SA Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d8+3)
*Tiger* (AC 14, *HP* 45, *Attacks:* 2 claws +9 melee (1d8+6) and bite +4 melee (2d6+3), SA —)

_*For the Dog
*_Bite needs a 12+ to hit, and averages 3.5 damage.

40% hit for 3.5 damage, 5% critical for 5.075 damage (3.5*0.55 +7.0*0.45)

Average Dog does 1.65375 hit points per round.

Flanking gives +2 to attack, so bite +4 melee and 10+ needed for dog to hit.

50% hit for 3.5 damage, 5% critical for 5.425 damage (3.5*0.45 +7.0*0.55)

Average Flanking Dog does 2.02125 hit points per round.

_*For the Tiger
*_The tiger's 10 ft. space mean 12 flanking dogs can attack it, averaging 24.255 hp/rd.

If the tiger gets its back to a wall, only 8 dogs can attack it, of which 4 can flank, for an average of 14.7 hp/rd.

Claw needs a 6+ to hit and averages 10.5 damage
Bite needs an 11+ to hit and averages 10 damage

A tiger's attacks do so much damage it basically knocks out a dog with each hit. Its rake attack is of no use, since it will have already killed or crippled the target dog with the first hit, thus.

Claw: 75% "kill", 2 claws = 1.5 dogs/round
Bite: 50% "kill", 1 bite = 0.5 dogs/round

Average of 2 dogs/round when full attacking.

_*Results*_
So it takes the dogs 2-4 rounds to kill the tiger, during which time they lose 4-8 of their number. That matches reasonably well with the (rather anecdotal) accounts of dholes killing a tiger but losing 5 or 13 of the dogs in their pack.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2011)

Let's go ahead and convert 'em, even if we do just take a Small dog and tack on the racial bonus to Swim checks and some different flavor text.   It's not like it will take very long.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's go ahead and convert 'em, even if we do just take a Small dog and tack on the racial bonus to Swim checks and some different flavor text.   It's not like it will take very long.




They should have a wider Organization too, since Dholes hunt in large groups. Which are called clans, apparently.

Maybe it'd be easier if we just set the changes.

So far we've got "Dholes have a +4 racial bonus to Jump *and Swim* checks."

They're noted for their Endurance, so we could give them that instead of Alertness?


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> They're noted for their Endurance, so we could give them that instead of Alertness?




Sure!  Anything to help differentiate them.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sure!  Anything to help differentiate them.




Okay, might as well put it together into a Working Draft and see what we get.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 22, 2011)

*Dhole*
Small Animal
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+2 (6 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class:* 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–3
*Attack:* Bite +2 melee (1d4+1)
*Full Attack:* Bite +2 melee (1d4+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Jump +9, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +5, Survival +1*
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance (B), Track (B)
*Environment:* Any land
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, pack (3-6) or clan (5–50)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

_This small dog has reddish fur with a white underside.  It is long-limbed for its size._

Dholes are highly social canids that live in large clans, which may  include many dozen animals. The clan may hunt together, or split into  several "hunting packs", depending on the circumstances. Dholes will  hunt a wide range of animals, but specialize in big herbivores such as  wild boar, antelope, or buffalo.

Dholes dig dens to raise their young in, typically in a dry riverbed or  under an area of scrub. A dhole den can range from a simple hole or a  re-purposed porcupine  lair, to an elaborate network of interconnecting  tunnels and chambers,  with many entrances.  The larger dens often  accommodates multiple dhole mothers and their pups. A clan of dholes may  use an ancestral den site which has been slowly expanded over many  generations.

Dhole packs maintain frequent communication when hunting or travelling.  They use whistling "coo-coo"  sounds to guide each other through  difficult terrain.   When attacking  prey, their screams sound like  "KaKaKaKaa".

 A typical dhole is 3 feet long (not including tail) and stands 18 to 22 inches tall at the shoulder. It weighs 30 to 40 pounds.

*COMBAT*

Dholes are afraid of humanoids and avoid them whenever possible. They  show little fear of other animals, and use pack tactics to hunt animals  far stronger than an individual dhole. In exceptional cases, a clan of  dholes will unite to kill creatures as powerful as bears, leopards,  elephants or tigers, even  though a bear or tiger can kill a dozen  dholes before being slain.

Dholes usually chase their prey to exhaustion and then attack from all  sides simultaneously, making much use of flanking attacks and Aid  Another actions. Dholes are good swimmers, and often chase prey into  water to limit their victim's movement.

Dholes are ferocious and tenacious fighters, and a pack or clan may endure many casualties before deciding to retreat.     

*Skills:*  A dhole has a +4 racial bonus to Jump and Swim checks.  *Dholes have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by  scent.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2011)

Hmm, don't like giving them a Listen and Spot lower than a standard dog.

I'd either give them a racial bonus to those skills or Alertness as a bonus feat.

Thoughts?


----------



## Shade (Jul 25, 2011)

Let's stick with Alertness as a standard feat, and make Endurance a bonus feat.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's stick with Alertness as a standard feat, and make Endurance a bonus feat.




Okay by me.

I'll update it.


----------



## Shade (Jul 25, 2011)

Anything else besides flavor n' tactics?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> Anything else besides flavor n' tactics?




Don't think so, no.

It's got a broken bracket in "3-6)" I need to fix, and X, Y and Zs for the height, length, and weight.


----------



## Shade (Jul 27, 2011)

From Wikipedia:



> Their limbs are moderately long, and their thoraxes proportional.[32] Along with African wild dogs, dholes are often referred to as "cat-like" canids, due to their long fine limbs and backbones.[30] They have great jumping and leaping abilities, being able to jump 3-3.5 m (10–12 ft) high, and leap 5–6 m (17–20 ft) long distances in one leap with a running start.[33] Their tails measure 16-17 inches long,[30] and are almost half the length of their bodies, nearly touching the ground when in full winter fur.[34] They are smaller than African wild dogs.[35] Adult males may reach 18 kg (40 lbs) in weight, with females being on average 4.5 kg (10 lbs) lighter. They stand 17-22 inches in shoulder height and 3 feet (0.91 m) in length.




3 feet long, 1-1/2 to 2 feet tall, and 30-40 lbs.?

We may need a higher racial bonus for Jump. Their current skill modifier makes jumping those heights and distances difficult to impossible.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> 3 feet long, 1-1/2 to 2 feet tall, and 30-40 lbs.?




A typical dhole is 3 feet long and stands 18 to 22 inches tall at the shoulder, it weighs 30 to 40 pounds?



Shade said:


> We may need a higher racial bonus for Jump. Their current skill modifier  makes jumping those heights and distances difficult to  impossible.




No, with Jump +9 they can jump 20 ft. (DC20) on an 11+, or 50% of the time.

As for the height, I'd assume that 10-12 ft is the height they can reach rather than what they can clear (i.e. they can jump up to bite a bird flying 10 ft. above the ground).

A Small creature has a base reach of 4 ft., so it needs a 6 ft. jump to reach a target 10 ft. in the air. That's DC 24, for 15+, or a 30% chance.

So I see no reason to increase the racial bonus.


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2011)

OK, I'm convinced.  

The height/weight looks good.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> OK, I'm convinced.
> 
> The height/weight looks good.




Updating *Working Draft*.

That just leaves the flavour & tactics.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2011)

_This small dog has reddish fur with a white underside.  It is long-limbed for its size._

Dholes are social canids, traveling and hunting in packs.  They dig dens varying from simple one-entrance affairs to complex, interconnected cavernous dens.

Dhole packs maintain frequent communication, using whistling “coo-coo” sounds to guide each other through difficult terrain.   When attacking prey, their screams sound like “KaKaKaKaa”.

Tactics

Dholes hunt using pack tactics.   They primarily hunt wild boar, water buffalo, and other herbivores.   Dholes are nearly fearless, and have been known to attack leopards, tigers, bears, and even elephants.  On rare occasions, dholes have been seen hunting alongside wolves, although the two species are generally antagonistic toward each other.


----------



## freyar (Aug 5, 2011)

Wow, is that done already?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Wow, is that done already?




I'd flesh the background out more than that.

How's this:

Dholes are highly social canids that live in large clans, which may include many dozen animals. The clan may hunt together, or split into several "hunting packs", depending on the circumstances. Dholes will hunt a wide range of animals, but specialize in big herbivores such as wild boar, antelope, or buffalo.

Dholes dig dens to raise their young in, typically in a dry riverbed or under an area of scrub. A dhole den can range from a simple hole or a re-purposed porcupine  lair, to an elaborate network of interconnecting tunnels and chambers,  with many entrances.  The larger dens often accommodates multiple dhole mothers and their pups. A clan of dholes may use an ancestral den site which has been slowly expanded over many generations.

Dhole packs maintain frequent communication when hunting or travelling. They use whistling "coo-coo"  sounds to guide each other through difficult terrain.   When attacking  prey, their screams sound like "KaKaKaKaa".

 A typical dhole is 3 feet long (not including tail) and stands 18 to 22 inches tall at the shoulder. It weighs 30 to 40 pounds.

COMBAT
Dholes are afraid of humanoids and avoid them whenever possible. They show little fear of other animals, and use pack tactics to hunt animals far stronger than an individual dhole. In exceptional cases, a clan of dholes will unite to kill creatures as powerful as bears, leopards, elephants or tigers, even  though a bear or tiger can kill a dozen dholes before being slain.

Dholes usually chase their prey to exhaustion and then attack from all sides simultaneously, making much use of flanking attacks and Aid Another actions. Dholes are good swimmers, and often chase prey into water to limit their victim's movement.

Dholes are ferocious and tenacious fighters, and a pack or clan may endure many casualties before deciding to retreat.


----------



## Shade (Aug 8, 2011)

Looks good.  Update your working draft, and I'll port it over to Homebrews and we'll move on.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Update your working draft, and I'll port it over to Homebrews and we'll move on.




 Updating *Working Draft*...

I suggest changing the environment to "Any land" since Dholes live mountains, plains, forests and jungles and can cope with a wide range of climates, from hot areas like Thailand to the cold, dry plateau of Tibet.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2011)

Agreed.  Transferred to Homebrews.

Next!

*Dingo*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-2/2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 1-1
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (35 lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE:  I/10  + 1/hp

Though they are like coyotes in size, build, and habits, dingoes are descended from or closely related to domestic dogs. Evidence of domestic ancestry is to be found in dingo coat colors and patterns, which (in addition to the nondescript tawny color typical of wild dogs) range through black, red, white, yellow, brown, and piebald, though none of these is as common as the “wild” type. Like coyotes, dingoes may be found in any sort of terrain, but they range from tropical to temperate climes rather than from subtropical to subarctic. They will not occur together  with coyotes.

Dingoes are semi-social. They can be tamed but not trained.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #102 (1985).

Dingo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Transferred to Homebrews.
> 
> Next!
> 
> *Dingo*




Looks like we should just use our Coyote stats or the SRD Small Dog stats.


----------



## freyar (Aug 10, 2011)

Just tweak the coyote a bit?


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Just tweak the coyote a bit?




Works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Just tweak the coyote a bit?




If you like.

It's just there doesn't seem to be any mechanical differences to work with.

We might as well just give them a different background & description and add "use Coyote statistics for pure strain Dingos, or Dog statistics for the largest cross-breed Dingos."


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> If you like.
> 
> It's just there doesn't seem to be any mechanical differences to work with.
> 
> We might as well just give them a different background & description and add "use Coyote statistics for pure strain Dingos, or Dog statistics for the largest cross-breed Dingos."




If we're going to bother giving them an entry, I'd rather reprint stats.  Otherwise, we can just make 'em a footnote on the coyote entry.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> If we're going to bother giving them an entry, I'd rather reprint stats.  Otherwise, we can just make 'em a footnote on the coyote entry.




I don't mind redoing the stats if it makes you happy.

Any mechanical changes you fancy, or will it all be flavour?


----------



## freyar (Aug 15, 2011)

We could change feats around to reflect different habitats and probably also org since they seem a little more social.  Maybe change skills a little too.  But I'm not sure if any of the "base" statistics should be changed or not.  Maybe we could just shift a point or two around in the abilities.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> We could change feats around to reflect different habitats and probably also org since they seem a little more social.  Maybe change skills a little too.  But I'm not sure if any of the "base" statistics should be changed or not.  Maybe we could just shift a point or two around in the abilities.




Well a Dingo looks a bit stockier and shorter-limbed than a Coyote, so how about giving it Str 10, Dex 16?

The AD&D stats are slower (15" move rather than 18"), but I don't fancy making them slower than an SRD Dog.

Half the Listen and Spot racial bonuses to +2, or cut them out entirely?


----------



## Shade (Aug 16, 2011)

Str 10, Dex 16, half Listen and Spot bonuses appeal.

Suggested alternate feat/skills?


----------



## freyar (Aug 16, 2011)

Agreed.

I was going to suggest Endurance for the feat, but we already gave the coyote that as a bonus.  Hmm.  I guess just leave them the same.

The coyote appears to have two ranks in Survival and I think 2 in Jump.  What about putting them all into Survival?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I was going to suggest Endurance for the feat, but we already gave the coyote that as a bonus.  Hmm.  I guess just leave them the same.
> 
> The coyote appears to have two ranks in Survival and I think 2 in Jump.  What about putting them all into Survival?




Don't see any reason to believe they're better survivalists than Coyotes, so I'd prefer 2 in Survival, 1 each in Listen and Spot.


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Don't see any reason to believe they're better survivalists than Coyotes, so I'd prefer 2 in Survival, 1 each in Listen and Spot.




Sounds good.  Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Added to Homebrews.




Its bite should be +4. Methinks you forgot the size bonus.

Reflex save ought to be +5.

I'd prefer them to be _rumoured _to occasionally steal humanoid babies.

Tactics are presumably the same as most canine pack hunters.


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2011)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




The Armour Class also uses the wrong Dex bonus, should be AC 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12.

"The are notorious" in the first paragraph should have a "They".

I'd add a bit to tactics:

Like most wild canids, dingoes hunt prey by scent and bring it down with a powerful bite. They use pack tactics against larger opponents.

Apart from those tweaks I think they're done.


----------



## Shade (Aug 18, 2011)

Updated.

*Dog, Feral*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 1
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (45 lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE:  I/10  + 1/hp

This type is not truly a wild canid. Feral dogs are domestic dogs that have spent a generation or more away from human interference. Natural selection tends to produce an animal midway in size between coyote and wolf, and features such as droopy ears, odd coloration, gigantism, dwarfism, and so on become less common with each generation. Feral dogs do not occur together with truly wild canids of the same size, since they can’t compete, especially where seasons are marked. Like domestic dogs, feral dogs may bear young at any time of the year, including such inappropriate times as the middle of the winter or the height of the flood season. Feral dogs will be found in most climes and sorts of terrain, but only within 50 miles of human settlements. They can be tamed if captured young, and are in effect domestic dogs.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #102 (1985).


----------



## Shade (Aug 18, 2011)

Taking this quite literally...

*Dog, Coyote*
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 (6 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–5
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d4-1)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d4-1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 9, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +9, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +3*
Feats: Endurance (B), Track (B), Weapon Finesse
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary, pair or family (2–8)
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Skills: A coyote has a +4 racial bonus to Jump, Listen, and Spot checks. *Coyotes have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

*Wolf*
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Spot +3, Survival +1*
Feats: Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (7–16)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3 HD (Medium); 4–6 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: --

Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf. 

Skills: *Wolves have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

____________________________________________________

Halfway between yields:

Str 11, Dex 16
Speed:  45 feet (which is a direct conversion of its original speed as well)
Weapon Finesse vs. Weapon Focus?
Drop or retain trip?
Halve the Jump, Listen, and Spot bonuses?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Taking this quite literally...




Boy, and I thought you were scraping the barrel's bottom with the Coyote. These look even more like an SRD Dog, especially since it says they're "in effect domestic dogs".

Come to think of it, can we increase the Coyote's speed to 50 ft. to match the SRD Wolf? Or, failing that, give them 45 ft. speed?

Coyotes are known for covering great distances in a day. It will also help distinguish them from the Dingo (which should really have a slower speed).


----------



## freyar (Aug 22, 2011)

I'd be happy to increase the coyote's speed.

Should we maybe just say that the feral dog is just the SRD dog?


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd be happy to increase the coyote's speed.




Same here.



freyar said:


> Should we maybe just say that the feral dog is just the SRD dog?




That's fine, if by "saying" it you mean just moving on without a conversion.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd be happy to increase the coyote's speed.
> 
> Should we maybe just say that the feral dog is just the SRD dog?




Let's do both and move on then.

50 ft. for the Coyote speed, so it matches the SRD Wolf?


----------



## Shade (Aug 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> 50 ft. for the Coyote speed, so it matches the SRD Wolf?




Yep.  Updated.

Here's the last canid from that article...

*Hunting Dog*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 4-24
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 21”
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (60 lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE:  I/20  + 2/hp

Also called the African hunting dog or Cape hunting dog, this canid is not closely related to the others. It resembles a big domestic dog with long legs, an outsize head, powerful jaws, and large, rounded ears. The short fur is sparse, and the black skin beneath it can be seen in places. Hunting dogs sport a peculiar harlequin pattern: asymmetrical white blotches, rimmed with black, on a yellowish background. The tip of the tail is always white, and the face and muzzle black. Hunting dogs have a strong, musky odor. They are efficient hunters, and can bring down anything smaller than an elephant or a hippopotamus, hunting in coordinated groups near sunrise or sunset. They chatter when excited, and make a strange, bell-like sound in the chase. Members of the pack are very close, and it is surprising that these canids are not more often tamed. Their inexpressive faces and strong odor may have something to do with this. They can be tamed and trained for use as coursing hounds, though. Hunting dogs seldom attack humans, but will take domestic animals. They are native to open tropical country.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #102 (1985).

Lycaon pictus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## freyar (Aug 25, 2011)

Any ideas on this one?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Any ideas on this one?




Compared to the AD&D wolf it has one fewer HD, is 3" faster, but does the same damage.

50 ft. speed, Strength 13 and a 1d6 bite like the SRD Wolf?

African Hunting dogs are *mainly sight-hunters*, so we could reduce or eliminate the Track-by-scent bonus.

I'd keep the Track bonus feat and add Endurance. Toyed with the idea of Run as well.

Hmm... Could give them Run instead of the wolves' Weapon Focus. If we keep them Small like a standard Dog, the attack modifier works out the same because of the size bonus.

However, I'd rather increase the size to Medium and give them Weapon Focus (bite), since they weigh 40-75 pounds.

The wolves' Trip attack would probably suit them too...

That looks like enough for a Working Draft...

EDIT: I started a Working Draft. Put the odd skill point in Spot, since they're sight-hunters.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2011)

*Hunting Dog Working Draft*

*Hunting Dog*
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +3, Spot +4, Survival +1*
Feats: Run (B), Track (B), Weapon Finesse
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (4–24)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: ---

_Description_

background

A hunting dog is about 3 feet long and weighs from 40 to 75 pounds.

COMBAT

Tactics

Trip (Ex): A hunting dog that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the  opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch  attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the  opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.


----------



## freyar (Aug 30, 2011)

I be happy to swap Run and Weapon Focus.  Distinguishes them a little.  Or Weapon Finesse if you really want to keep the attack bonus the same.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> I be happy to swap Run and Weapon Focus.  Distinguishes them a little.  Or Weapon Finesse if you really want to keep the attack bonus the same.




Weapon Finesse would give them a higher attack bonus than a Wolf.

They've already better than the SRD wolf, since they have an extra bonus feat. Indeed, I'm starting to think giving them better Endurance than a Wolf (due to the feat) doesn't seem right. Since the AD&D version had a higher speed we're likely better giving them Run as the bonus instead of Endurance.

I'm a bit dubious about Hunting Dogs actually being faster than wolves in real life - as far as their 3E stats go I'd think they'd have the same speed and stamina - but I'll go along with it for the sake of distinguishing the two.


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Weapon Finesse would give them a higher attack bonus than a Wolf.
> 
> They've already better than the SRD wolf, since they have an extra bonus feat. Indeed, I'm starting to think giving them better Endurance than a Wolf (due to the feat) doesn't seem right. Since the AD&D version had a higher speed we're likely better giving them Run as the bonus instead of Endurance.
> 
> I'm a bit dubious about Hunting Dogs actually being faster than wolves in real life - as far as their 3E stats go I'd think they'd have the same speed and stamina - but I'll go along with it for the sake of distinguishing the two.




Swapping Endurance for Run appeals.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Swapping Endurance for Run appeals.




*Swapped*.

If you fancy giving them Weapon Finesse for the extra point of attack I would not object.


----------



## freyar (Sep 2, 2011)

Weapon Finesse would be good.  If someone really doesn't like it, Blind-Fight might be interesting.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Weapon Finesse would be good.  If someone really doesn't like it, Blind-Fight might be interesting.




Where did you get that idea from?

If they're sight-hunters they ought to be _more_ dependent on their eyesight when hunting than regular dogs. Besides, if any carnivore deserves Blind-Fight it should be the Leopard...

What does Shade have to say on Weapon Finesse?


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## freyar (Sep 6, 2011)

I forgot about the sight bit.  I was just trying to find some other feat.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> I forgot about the sight bit.  I was just trying to find some other feat.




What, instead of Weapon Finesse?

If you don't want that I'd stick to the current Weapon Focus, I think its attack modifier should be as high as a Wolf.


----------



## Shade (Sep 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> What does Shade have to say on Weapon Finesse?




Shade says "yea".  

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Shade says "yea".
> 
> Updated.




Hey, the *Updating* is my job!

So, is it just the flavour left?


----------



## freyar (Sep 7, 2011)

I think so, and I liked Weapon Finesse all along.  I thought you didn't maybe.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think so, and I liked Weapon Finesse all along.  I thought you didn't maybe.




It's more that I didn't like making them better fighters than wolves rather than not liking Weapon Finesse. Suppose we could lower the Strength a couple of points, so they have the same attack but lower damage, but making them weaker than the SRD's Small-size Dog doesn't seem right.


----------



## Shade (Sep 8, 2011)

Cleon said:


> It's more that I didn't like making them better fighters than wolves rather than not liking Weapon Finesse. Suppose we could lower the Strength a couple of points, so they have the same attack but lower damage, but making them weaker than the SRD's Small-size Dog doesn't seem right.




Yeah, let's not go there.


----------



## freyar (Sep 8, 2011)

No need to reduce Str, just let them have a bit better attack bonus.  We could always compensate in some other way if we really need to.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> No need to reduce Str, just let them have a bit better attack bonus.  We could always compensate in some other way if we really need to.




So, is there anything left apart from new flavour?


----------



## freyar (Sep 12, 2011)

Don't think so.


----------



## Shade (Sep 13, 2011)

Yep, I think we just need flavor.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep, I think we just need flavor.




So, who's going to blink first and write some flavour?


----------



## freyar (Sep 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So, who's going to blink first and write some flavour?



You are, of course.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> You are, of course.




I am?

What gives you that idea.

Why, you don't even know whether I have eyelids. 

Although I'm at a loose end at the moment, so let's see what I can come up with.

Might as well keep it simple, how about this...

_A lean, powerful dog with a patchwork coat of __black, white and tan fur. Its tail has a white tip and tan base, separated by a black band. The head has large, erect ears and a powerful muzzle._

Hunting dogs are a species of wild dog found on tropical plains. They are sometimes called "painted dogs", because the fur of each individual has a varicolored pattern as unique as a fingerprint.

A hunting dog is about 3 feet long and weighs from 40 to 75 pounds.

COMBAT

Hunting dogs  usually avoid humanoids, but can be as deadly as wolves if pressed or desparate. They usually fight in well-coordinated packs.


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2011)

I blinked...and missed it!  

Transferred to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I blinked...and missed it!
> 
> Transferred to Homebrews.




Oops, just noticed a typo. It should be "desperate" in "if pressed or desparate" under tactics.

Apart from that we seem to be finished.


----------



## freyar (Sep 16, 2011)

That one done?


----------



## Shade (Sep 19, 2011)

I fixed the typos.

I'm going to throw out all the hyena varieties from the article in one lump here, and we can determine if any of them warrant conversion.

______________________________________________________________

*Hyenas*
Although hyenas are more closely related to cats than they are to canids, they parallel the canids in a number of ways. With the few exceptions mentioned here, the earlier general remarks concerning canids apply to hyenas as well.

Like canids, hyenas are runners and attack their prey by biting; this is related to their somewhat similar appearance. However, hyenas have relatively large forequarters and small hindquarters, so that the back slopes downward from shoulders to hips. Hyenas typically have less elegant pelts than canids do; their fur is coarse and unkempt, though hyenas keep themselves as well groomed as any canids. Hyenas also differ from canids in that they are better adapted to scavenging the remains of large animals, though they are by no means poor hunters.

Hyenas have powerful jaws, and teeth specially adapted to crushing bones, not to mention a robust digestive system. They can finish off not just the meat and internal organs of a kill, but the hide and bones as well. Even the most predatory hyenas seldom pass up a free (effortless) meal, and some villages depend on hyenas to clean up refuse. Male hyenas are no larger than females, contrary to the situation among canids. In fact, female spotted or cave hyenas are larger than the males.

Unlike canids, hyenas do not cooperate in caring for their young. Raising the pups is the sole responsibility of the female that gave birth to them, and other hyenas may eat these pups if they are undefended. As with canids, the lair is typically a cave or burrow, but the further reaches of the lair are extended by the pups themselves among the hyenas, and adult hyenas cannot reach them. Among social hyenas, several females may keep their pups in the same den. Each female typically has 1-2 pups, and as with canids there is a 30% chance that the pups in any single litter encountered will be young enough to be tameable. 

Prehistoric hyenas
In Pleistocene settings the modern varieties of hyenas will be present, along with the larger sorts mentioned above. Also present will be slender hyenas of cheetahlike build and habits (as the cheetah, but 3” slower). Hyenas date back to the Miocene epoch. Similar creatures of earlier times will be 3” slower and of animal intelligence rather than semi-intelligent. Hyaenodons are prehistoric carnivorous animals that were common predators during the Oligocene, before the rise of dogs, cats, hyenas, weasels, and their relatives. They had relatively short legs, long jaws full of large teeth, and small brains. They resembled hyenas, if at all, in the shapes of some of their teeth (Hyaenodon = “hyena tooth”). These animals ranged from kittensized to lion-sized, and the figures given under .Hyaenodon. in the Monster Manual describe one of the larger varieties quite well, even to the relatively slow movement rate and low intelligence, though there is some tenuous evidence that these animals were solitary.

*Cave Hyena*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 4
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: NIl
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
SIZE: M (200 lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP. VALUE: III/60+4/hp

Cave Hyena: The cave hyena is a large variety of spotted hyena from the temperate plains and the steppes of the Pleistocene. It is of the same species as the spotted hyena, and is like it in all but size. 

*Spotted Hyena*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-7
SPECIAL ATTACKS: NIl
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
SIZE: M (140  lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP. VALUE: II/35+3/hp

Spotted Hyena: Spotted hyenas are dirty orange in color, with small black spots. The spotted hyena has a large repertoire of calls, including the famous .laugh,. which really does sound like it ought to be coming out of a lunatic asylum in a third-rate movie. This laugh brings other scavengers and predators on the run, for it means the hyenas have made a kill. Swift runners, spotted hyenas hunt cooperatively, and will attack anything that doesn.t put up too much of a light.

Where they depend on refuse, spotted hyenas may start in on the human population if the supply of garbage falls off. These hyenas can be tamed and used as hunting beasts if they are caught when young. They inhabit open country in tropical climates, in settled and wilderness areas. 

*Short-Faced Hyena*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 5
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: NIl
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
SIZE: L (300 lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP. VALUE: III/90+5/hp

Short-faced Hyena: The short-faced hyena is a lion-sized relative of the striped hyena from the Pleistocene. Its habits are those of its smaller cousin, though it can tackle larger game. It lives in temperate climates.

*Striped Hyena*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: NIl
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
SIZE: M (90  lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP. VALUE: I/20+2/hp

Striped Hyena: This hyena (and its relative the brown hyena, which is essentially the same in size and habits) conforms best to the hyena stereotype. It seldom attacks something larger than itself (goats and small humanoids are near the upper limit), and shows little or no social behavior. Striped hyenas eat human refuse, and will also raid crops of melons, dates, grapes, or other sweet fruits. A striped hyena is greyish, with vertical stripes on its sides and a crest of longer hair running down the back. Its ears are larger and more pointed than those of the spotted hyena. Brown hyenas are essentially the same, except that they are (as the name bears out) brown. Striped hyenas can be tamed if they are captured as juveniles, though they may be rather shy. Striped hyenas live in open country in tropical and subtropical regions.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #102 (1985).


----------



## Cleon (Sep 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> I fixed the typos.
> 
> I'm going to throw out all the hyena varieties from the article in one lump here, and we can determine if any of them warrant conversion.




Well the differences from standard AD&D hyenas are pretty minor, but they're not smaller than the Canines we decided we could be bothered with.


----------



## freyar (Sep 21, 2011)

Pick one, and we'll start.   Any other paleontological info would be good, too.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2011)

I'm assuming the standard D&D hyena is the spotted hyena.   If that's the case, I'd suggest we skip that one, and start with the cave hyena, since it's the closest variant.

Cave Hyena - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They are slightly bigger, so probably slightly higher Str and perhaps Con?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm assuming the standard D&D hyena is the spotted hyena.   If that's the case, I'd suggest we skip that one, and start with the cave hyena, since it's the closest variant.




Unfortunately, you assume wrong.

If you look at the SRD *Hyena* you'll see "The statistics presented here are for a striped hyena".

That explains why they both have 2 HD.

3E stats for a real-world Striped Hyena shouldn't have any size advancement, and it _probably_ ought to have Speed 40 ft., since they're slower than wolves or foxes. Since the SRD specifies the species, I suppose we shouldn't do new stats for _Hyaena hyaena_.



Shade said:


> Cave Hyena - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> They are slightly bigger, so probably slightly higher Str and perhaps Con?




I'm OK skipping the Spotted variety and starting with the Cave Hyena.

They've got twice the HD of the SRD Hyena and weighed twice as much. I'd be fine with Str 16, but would leave the Con unchanged, at least for the time being.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Unfortunately, you assume wrong.




There's a first time for everything!  



Cleon said:


> I'm OK skipping the Spotted variety and starting with the Cave Hyena.
> 
> They've got twice the HD of the SRD Hyena and weighed twice as much. I'd be fine with Str 16, but would leave the Con unchanged, at least for the time being.




Works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> There's a first time for everything!
> 
> Works for me.




So, time for a Working Draft?


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So, time for a Working Draft?




Yep.   Added to Homebrews.

I did not, however, that the standard hyena reaches Large at 4 HD.  Should we make these guys Large?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 28, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep.   Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I did not, however, that the standard hyena reaches Large at 4 HD.  Should we make these guys Large?




Well, they're a good deal under the standard lower weight limit of Large, but then so are Lions. Their estimated weight of 225 pounds or so is about that of a small lion.

So sure, why not make them Large. It'll let us bump up the bite damage dice.

Our conversion of the Hyaenodon has Str 22, so shall we give the Large Cave Hyena Str 18?


----------



## freyar (Sep 30, 2011)

Sounds about right to me.  And, yes, let's go up to 1d8 bite damage.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds about right to me.  And, yes, let's go up to 1d8 bite damage.




Yup, that's what I was thinking.

A 1d8+6 damage bite is quite respectable.


----------



## freyar (Oct 3, 2011)

Ok, good.  Give them Weapon Focus for the other feat and split the 2 ranks between Listen and Spot?


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2011)

Agreed.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Updated.




That looks fine.


----------



## freyar (Oct 6, 2011)

Looks like a tough CR 2, I guess.
Environment looks fine.
5-8 HD (Large)?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks like a tough CR 2, I guess.




Agreed.



freyar said:


> Environment looks fine.




Cave hyenas were very wide ranging (covering practically all of Europe and Asia), preferred terrain with lots of grazers (horses, caribou _et cetera_...), and lived during the Ice Age (so shouldn't mind the cold).

I'd interpret that as "Environment: Cold or temperate plains".



freyar said:


> 5-8 HD (Large)?




Such an Advancement suits me.


----------



## freyar (Oct 7, 2011)

I'd be happy with the modified environment line.

Then I think we just need a length and some text.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd be happy with the modified environment line.
> 
> Then I think we just need a length and some text.




4 to 5 feet long and up to 3 feet tall should be about right.


----------



## freyar (Oct 11, 2011)

Anyone have flavor and tactics?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Anyone have flavor and tactics?




Not at the moment, no.

I'd want to mention them dragging prey back to their dens.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2011)

Updated.  I threw a little flavor text in there, based on the Wikipedia entry.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  I threw a little flavor text in there, based on the Wikipedia entry.




Caves might not be available, so I suggest "preferred" instead of "usual". Oh, and mention where they live if caverns aren't available.

I'm thinking "inbex" should be "ibex". Also, I don't believe they habitually prey on wooly rhinos, they're more an occasional victim. Also, the Fiend Folio uses rhinoceroses for multiple examples of the dire rhinoceros, so I think we should use that spelling instead of rhinoceri.

How's this:Cave hyenas get their name from their preferred choice of lairs. If caves aren't available, they dig out deep dens.

Cave hyenas are opportunistic predators and scavengers.  They mainly  prey on herd animals such as horses, ibex, and deer, but occasionally eat creatures as big as wooly rhinoceroses.  They are willing to steal kills from neanderthals and other predators, and in lean times may turn to  cannibalism.  Cave hyenas often drag prey back to their caves,  accumulating bones and horns for later consumption or for their young to play with.

A cave hyena is about 4 to 5 feet long, stands up to 3 feet tall, and weighs around 225 pounds.​Oh, and the trip should have a +8 modifier (+4 for Str 18, +4 for Large), not +6.

That just leaves tactics, something like this...

COMBAT
Cave hyenas favor flank attacks. A couple of hyenas distract the foe from the front, while the rest of the pack attack from the sides and back. They focus their attacks on a chosen victim, trying to bring them to the ground with trip attacks.

A cave hyena are as courageous as most other carnivores. They will withdraw from a losing fight to save themselves injury or wasted effort, but are certainly not cowards.


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2011)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




It's missing a description.


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> It's missing a description.




Essentially, just describe a larger hyena?


----------



## freyar (Oct 17, 2011)

That makes sense to me.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Essentially, just describe a larger hyena?




They've got proportionally longer legs than modern-day hyenas. Living in colder climes suggests they should have thicker fur, too.

How about:

_A hyena of unusual size, maybe twice as heavy as the common variety. It has unusually long legs and a thick coat of fur._


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2011)

Updated.

*Short-Faced Hyena*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 5
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: NIl
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
SIZE: L (300 lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP. VALUE: III/90+5/hp

The short-faced hyena is a lion-sized relative of the striped hyena from the Pleistocene. Its habits are those of its smaller cousin, though it can tackle larger game. It lives in temperate climates.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #102 (1985).


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> *Short-Faced Hyena*




Looks like a question of just increasing the Hit Dice (+1 HD), Strength (+2 Str) and bite damage (2d6) of the Cave Hyena.

If it's Lion-size, I'd want to give it the same +5 Strength bonus as the SRD Lion (which it matches in Hit Dice, conveniently).

Apart from those changes I don't think there's much to them.


----------



## freyar (Oct 20, 2011)

I think Cleon's about right.  We should think about swapping skills and feats around as a point of differentiation, though.


----------



## Shade (Oct 21, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

I don't mind if we mix up the skill and/or feat selection.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think Cleon's about right.  We should think about swapping skills and feats around as a point of differentiation, though.




Yes, I'd better refresh my memory about what a Short-Faced Hyena is like...

Hmm, we're talking _Pachycrocuta brevirosta_ (a literal translation of which is "thick-hyena, short-faced").

They're the largest hyena (Hyaenodons are bigger, but they're not strictly speaking hyenas)m being the size of lions.

_Probably_ laired in caves like a Cave Hyena.

Heaviset and not built for long-distance chases. That suggests to me it used an ambush strategy, like its feline ancestors?

There's a *recent study* that claims _Pachycrocuta_ was almost entirely a scavenger that bullied other predators and stole their kills. Although I am happy to say it like to steal kills, I don't want to make it an exclusive scavenger. Almost all predators will scavenge if given an opportunity, but I think they also need to be able to catch their own prey. Besides, a good scavenger needs to be able to cover a lot of ground without expending much energy while searching for carrion, and _Pachycrocuta_ don't seem to be built for that.

So, let's make it an ambush killer, with some bonus to Hide and Spot, and possibly Stealthy. Could give it keen scent to help it find carrion.

They're fairly low-set for their weight,  because they have proportionally shorter legs than modern hyenas.

Possible size range 35-40 inches at the shoulder and 220-400 pounds  (probably averaged ~250-300 lbs). Let's say at least 3 feet at the  should and about 300 pounds.

Its jaws were great at cracking bones but may not have been so good for  biting/grappling onto struggling prey (cut the Trip attack to represent  this?).

Likely to have lived in packs.

Oh, and short-faced hyenas definitely *ate people*, or at least our hominid ancestors, so we could say they have a reputation as man-eaters.

Some cryptozoologists suggest the *Nandi Bear* is a short-faced hyena. Maybe we should give it the Nandi's love of eating brains?

The Nandi Bear theory would match up with the Hide and Move Silently bonus - they have to be sneaky or the scientists would discover them.


----------



## freyar (Oct 24, 2011)

So swap Alertness out for Stealthy or Skill Focus (Hide)?  Move some ranks around?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> So swap Alertness out for Stealthy or Skill Focus (Hide)?  Move some ranks around?




Let's see, SRD Hyenas already have a +4 racial bonus to Hide. I'd keep that, give them Stealthy (preferably instead of WF (bite), since it'll have a pretty good attack without it), and maybe move a few points from Spot to Hide.

Oh, and how about a Wolf/Dog-type +4 racial bonus to track by scent plus Track as a bonus feat? Maybe even a "keen scent" to sniff out carrion over long distances?


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Let's see, SRD Hyenas already have a +4 racial bonus to Hide. I'd keep that, give them Stealthy (preferably instead of WF (bite), since it'll have a pretty good attack without it), and maybe move a few points from Spot to Hide.
> 
> Oh, and how about a Wolf/Dog-type +4 racial bonus to track by scent plus Track as a bonus feat? Maybe even a "keen scent" to sniff out carrion over long distances?




That all sounds good.  Didn't we develop a "keen scent" for a previous conversion?


----------



## freyar (Oct 26, 2011)

How about the shark? 

Keen Scent (Ex): A shark can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 26, 2011)

Shade said:


> That all sounds good.  Didn't we develop a "keen scent" for a previous conversion?




Sounds familiar, but I think we just modified the SRD Shark's keen scent.


----------



## freyar (Oct 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> How about the shark?
> 
> Keen Scent (Ex): A shark can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.






Cleon said:


> Sounds familiar, but I think we just modified the SRD Shark's keen scent.




Looks like I was the ninja this time! 

Thoughts about the ranges?  We'll obviously also want to get rid of the "in the water" bit.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Thoughts about the ranges?  We'll obviously also want to get rid of the "in the water" bit.




I'd go for 60 feet for the "scent foe" distance, while keeping the mile distance for food.

e.g.:

*Keen Scent (Ex):* A short-faced hyena can notice creatures by scent in a 60-foot  radius, and detect the scent of blood or a carcass at ranges of up to a mile.


----------



## freyar (Oct 28, 2011)

That's fine, if a mile is realistic in the air.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's fine, if a mile is realistic in the air.




Don't see why not, although I'd be happy to cut it to 500 yards or half a mile if you prefer.


----------



## Shade (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm fine with a mile for the long-range.

For the short-range, would it work better to say "double the normal ranges of scent"?   Scent ranges are rather variable, so limiting to 60-foot radius could actually be worse than normal scent in the right situations.


----------



## freyar (Oct 31, 2011)

Good idea, sure.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with a mile for the long-range.
> 
> For the short-range, would it work better to say "double the normal ranges of scent"?   Scent ranges are rather variable, so limiting to 60-foot radius could actually be worse than normal scent in the right situations.




Yes, I wondered about that too. It's OK by me, so something like this...

*Keen Scent (Ex):* A short-faced hyena can notice creatures by  scent at double the normal range (typically a 60-foot  radius), and detect the scent of blood or a carcass  at ranges of up to a mile.


----------



## freyar (Nov 2, 2011)

Looks good.  Anything else for these?


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2011)

Environment: Temperate plains?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (7–16)?

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: 6-9 HD (Large)?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Environment: Temperate plains?




I'd prefer "Any plains", since their range included Europe (which was  pretty chilly during the Pleistocene), most of Asia, and warm areas like  Southern Africa.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (7–16)?




I'd prefer a smaller pack size, maybe 3-6.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x




They look about a 3 to me?

However, we made out Hyaenodon conversion CR 4, and the Short-Faced Hyena seems about as tough as one of those beasties.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 6-9 HD (Large)?




I was thinking 6-8 HD (Large), like the SRD Lion.


----------



## freyar (Nov 2, 2011)

You can drop the question marks if you ask me.

CR looks to be about 3.  

But we should change "Kenn Scent" to "Keen Scent" in the SQ line. 

EDIT: But I'm not too bothered if you go with Cleon's suggestions. As for CR, they're clearly worse than the CR 4 brown bear, so I think they're probably more CR 3.


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




The trip should have a +9 modifier.

I'd expand the flavour text with some of the stuff in my *previous post*.

_A hyena the size of a small lion. It has a heavyset body with stocky legs. The head has a short muzzle with powerful jaws._

Short-faced hyenas are a giant, prehistoric variety of hyena. These tough, adaptable carnivores can be found in many climates and environments. They lair in earthen dens or caves. Short-faced hyenas are too slow to chase down most healthy prey animals, so get most of their meat by ambushes (usually at night), scavenging, or stealing kills from swifter but less powerful predators. They have a particular fondness for the taste of brains.

Short-faced hyenas have a well deserved reputation as maneaters. In the ages before civilization, short-faced hyenas preyed upon the ancestors of many humanoid races. They have little fear of humanoids, and still view them as prey.

A short-faced hyena is 5 to 6 feet long, stands about three feet at the shoulder and weighs 250 to 400 pounds.

COMBAT

A short faced hyena prefers to sneak up to an unattentive victim and bite them. A pack of these creatures usually attacks from many different directions to make it more difficult for their opponents to escape.


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2011)

Looks great!  Updated.

Next!

*Spotted Hyena*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-7
SPECIAL ATTACKS: NIl
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
SIZE: M (140  lbs.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP. VALUE: II/35+3/hp

Spotted Hyena: Spotted hyenas are dirty orange in color, with small black spots. The spotted hyena has a large repertoire of calls, including the famous .laugh,. which really does sound like it ought to be coming out of a lunatic asylum in a third-rate movie. This laugh brings other scavengers and predators on the run, for it means the hyenas have made a kill. Swift runners, spotted hyenas hunt cooperatively, and will attack anything that doesn.t put up too much of a light.

Where they depend on refuse, spotted hyenas may start in on the human population if the supply of garbage falls off. These hyenas can be tamed and used as hunting beasts if they are caught when young. They inhabit open country in tropical climates, in settled and wilderness areas. 


Spotted hyena - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## freyar (Nov 7, 2011)

Hmmmm.  Should the laugh have some sort of mechanical effect?  Otherwise, these might just be an advanced SRD hyena.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmmmm.  Should the laugh have some sort of mechanical effect?  Otherwise, these might just be an advanced SRD hyena.




They're significantly bigger than a striped hyena (50-120 lbs vs 90-180 lbs). That might not be enough to justify giving them an increased Strength, but I suppose it would do little harm.

So, I'd increase the bite to a d8 and _maybe _give them +2 Strength. That would match nicely with the larger (or, rather Large sized) Short-Faced Hyena's 2d6 bite.

Apart from that and an extra HD they should probably have "Warm plains" for an environment.

That ought to do it.


----------



## Shade (Nov 8, 2011)

Let's skip the Str boost and just increase the bite damage.

Added to Homebrews.

It gets one more skill rank and one more feat.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's skip the Str boost and just increase the bite damage.




That's acceptable.

Added to Homebrews.



Shade said:


> It gets one more skill rank and one more feat.




From my limited zoological knowledge I don't think there's that much difference in their habits. If I remember correctly, they hunt for food at night quite a bit, so maybe a point in Move Silently so they're a bit less likely to be heard by their prey (or the humanoids who's garbage they're riffling through)?


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> From my limited zoological knowledge I don't think there's that much difference in their habits. If I remember correctly, they hunt for food at night quite a bit, so maybe a point in Move Silently so they're a bit less likely to be heard by their prey (or the humanoids who's garbage they're riffling through)?




That'll work.  Since we didn't boost the Str, give 'em Power Attack for added damage?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> That'll work.  Since we didn't boost the Str, give 'em Power Attack for added damage?




That's what I was thinking of giving them, so it's obviously a wonderful idea.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That's what I was thinking of giving them, so it's obviously a wonderful idea.




Indeed!

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 2?

A spotted hyena is x to x feet long, stands about x feet at the shoulder and weighs 90 to 180 pounds.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> A spotted hyena is x to x feet long, stands about x feet at the shoulder and weighs 90 to 180 pounds.



From Wikipedia
Adults measure 95–165.8 cm (37–65.3 in) in body length, plus a tail of 25–35 cm (9.8–14 in), and have a shoulder height of 70–91.5 cm (28–36.0 in)

So 3 - 5.5 feet long (plus 2-3 foot tail) long, 2-3 feet at the shoulder

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Nov 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 2?
> 
> A spotted hyena is x to x feet long, stands about x feet at the shoulder and weighs 90 to 180 pounds.






Mortis said:


> So 3 - 5.5 feet long (plus 2-3 foot tail) long, 2-3 feet at the shoulder




The above it fine by me, except "9.8–14 in" means the tail is about a foot long:

A spotted hyena is 3 to 5½ feet long (plus about a foot of tail), stands 2 to 3 feet at the shoulder, and weighs 90 to 180 pounds


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2011)

Updated.

Suggestions for flavor text/tactics?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> except "9.8–14 in"



Yup, I must have read '25-36 cm' as inches 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Suggestions for flavor text/tactics?




How's this...

_Dark spots cover the short fur of this hyena. Its neck and  forequarters  are large and powerful, with a sparse mane. Its back slopes down to its hindquarters, which are smaller  in comparison._

Spotted hyenas are the largest modern hyena. Their pack hierarchy is dominated by the females, who are larger and more aggressive than the males. A spotted hyena's jaws and stomach acids are so powerful they can devour bones. They have a reputation as scavengers, and will eat carrion and scavenge rubbish, but mostly live by hunting big herbivores and pirating kills from other carnivores. Spotted hyenas can live on the outskirts of humanoid habitations if not actively persecuted.

Spotted hyenas are very vocal, frequently calling to their packmates. They are also called "laughing hyenas" because some of their calls resemble laughter or giggles from a maniac.

A spotted hyena is 3 to 5½ feet long (plus about a foot of tail), stands  2 to 3 feet at the shoulder, and weighs 90 to 180 pounds 	

*COMBAT*

Spotted hyenas tend to hunt alone or in small groups, but the whole pack may join together to attack difficult prey such as zebras or drive a powerful carnivore from its kill. They may prey upon humanoids, but this is rare. A spotted hyena is much more likely to steal an adventurer's dinner than try to rip out their throat.

A spotted hyena will try to trip its opponent and then rip them apart with bite attacks, often boosted with its Power Attack feat. A pack of spotted hyenas usually seeks to outflank their opponents, and as soon as one hyena succeeds in tripping an opponent other hyenas will rush in to savage the fallen target.


----------



## freyar (Nov 14, 2011)

Well, that about does it for that one.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, that about does it for that one.




Next?


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2011)

Did we decided that the SRD hyena is essentially the striped hyena, and therefore we don't need to convert the striped variety?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Did we decided that the SRD hyena is essentially the striped hyena, and therefore we don't need to convert the striped variety?




No, someone very talented and perspicacious (*cough cough* ) pointed out the SRD Hyena says "The statistics presented here *are for a striped hyena*".

So, no need to convert it.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> No, someone very talented and perspicacious (*cough cough* ) pointed out the SRD Hyena says "The statistics presented here *are for a striped hyena*".
> 
> So, no need to convert it.




That guy sure is talented.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Before we move on from the canids, do either of these need a conversion (I'm guessing they are covered by the existing dog stats)...

*Wild Dog *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any 
FREQUENCY: Common 
ORGANIZATION: Pack 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Omnivorous 
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4) 
TREASURE: Nil 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 4-16 (4d4) 
ARMOR CLASS: 7 
MOVEMENT: 15 
HIT DICE: 1+1 
THAC0: 19 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: S (3' long) 
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7) 
XP VALUE: 35 

Smaller than wolves, the appearance of the wild dog varies from place to place. Most appear very wolf-like, while others seem to combine the looks of a wolf and a jackal.

Combat: Wild dogs fight as an organized pack. They favor small game, and attack men and human habitations only in times of great hunger. The bite of a wild dog inflicts 1-4 points of damage.

Habitat/Society: Wild dogs are found almost anywhere. They run in packs, and are led by the dominant male. The pack usually hunts a variety of game, even attacking deer or antelope. Pups are born in the spring. Wild dogs can be tamed if separated from their pack.

Ecology: Wild dogs are omnivores which usually thrive on a combination of hunting and foraging.

*War Dog *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any 
FREQUENCY: Uncommon 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Omnivorous 
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4) 
TREASURE: Nil 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: Variable 
ARMOR CLASS: 6 
MOVEMENT: 12 
HIT DICE: 2+2 
THAC0: 19 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8 (2d4) 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: M (4'-6' long) 
MORALE: Average (8-10) 
XP VALUE: 65 


Generally large mastiffs or wolfhounds, they have keen senses of smell and hearing, making them adept at detecting intruders. Most war dogs are not usually vicious, and will rarely attack without cause.

The status of war dogs varies greatly; some are loyal and beloved pets, some are watch dogs, others are hunting dogs, and some are trained for battle.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> That guy sure is talented.




What really impresses me is his modesty.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Before we move on from the canids, do either of these need a conversion (I'm guessing they are covered by the existing dog stats)...
> 
> *Wild Dog *
> 
> *War Dog *




Yes, the SRD Dog definitely encompasses that version of the Wild Dog, so we needn't convert it.

I would like to do a conversion of the War Dog, although it'll end up a _slight_ modification of the Riding Dog.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Yes, the SRD Dog definitely encompasses that version of the Wild Dog, so we needn't convert it.
> 
> I would like to do a conversion of the War Dog, although it'll end up a _slight_ modification of the Riding Dog.




Then by all means proceed.


----------



## freyar (Nov 16, 2011)

So: what will differentiate the war dog from the riding dog?  Slight difference in bite damage?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> So: what will differentiate the war dog from the riding dog?  Slight difference in bite damage?




I'd go whole hog - Trip and Improved Grab attack, increase bite damage and/or a +2 to Strength, and a suit of canine leather armour.

Maybe cut the racial bonus to Track by Scent.


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd go whole hog - Trip and Improved Grab attack, increase bite damage and/or a +2 to Strength, and a suit of canine leather armour.
> 
> Maybe cut the racial bonus to Track by Scent.




I'm not sure about Trip *and *Improved Grab, but I'd go for one or the other.  

All the rest sounds good.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm not sure about Trip *and *Improved Grab, but I'd go for one or the other.




Astonishingly, I prefer both. Training dogs to fight humans in the real world is all about seizing opponents in their teeth, so I'd either give them the Improved Grab SA or Improved Grapple feat.

Personally, I'm not so bothered about the Trip, but the SRD Riding Dog says combat trained riding dogs add Trip, so I think we'd better include it.



Shade said:


> All the rest sounds good.




Time for a working draft?


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Astonishingly, I prefer both. Training dogs to fight humans in the real world is all about seizing opponents in their teeth, so I'd either give them the Improved Grab SA or Improved Grapple feat.
> 
> Personally, I'm not so bothered about the Trip, but the SRD Riding Dog says combat trained riding dogs add Trip, so I think we'd better include it.




My main problem with it is it makes them so much more effective than other dogs (and wolves).   How about drop the Trip, since you're less enamored by it than Improved Grab?



Cleon said:


> Time for a working draft?




Sure, once we drop one of those SAs.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> My main problem with it is it makes them so much more effective than other dogs (and wolves).   How about drop the Trip, since you're less enamored by it than Improved Grab?
> 
> Sure, once we drop one of those SAs.




Well I could drop the Improved Grab... and give them Improved Grapple as a bonus feat. 

Well I would rather they have Improved Grab than Trip, and it also helps distinguish them from a "war trained" Riding Dog.


----------



## Shade (Nov 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well I could drop the Improved Grab... and give them Improved Grapple as a bonus feat.




Improved Grapple has pinned your soul, hasn't it?   



Cleon said:


> Well I would rather they have Improved Grab than Trip, and it also helps distinguish them from a "war trained" Riding Dog.




Works for me!   That way, eager DMs (like yourself) can allow for additional training to add Trip to the mix.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Improved Grapple has pinned your soul, hasn't it?




Only when I forget to cast _freedom of movement_. 



Shade said:


> Works for me!   That way, eager DMs (like yourself) can allow for additional training to add Trip to the mix.




Let's go for that then, I'd make the Improved Grab work for sizes up to 1 larger than the dog (as per Improved Grapple) rather than the default of 1 size smaller, since I want it wrastling bears and human adventurers, not halflings.

Time for a Working Draft...


----------



## Cleon (Nov 18, 2011)

*War Dog Working Draft*

*Dog, **War*
Medium Animal
*Hit Dice:* 2d8+4 (13 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class:* 17 (+1 Dex, +4 natural, +2 leather armor), touch 11, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/+4
*Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d8+4)
*Full Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d8+4)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 17, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Jump +11, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +4, Survival +1
*Feats:* Alertness, Track (B)
*Environment:* Temperate plains
*Organization:* Domesticated
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A powerfully built dog with a massive head and heavy jaws. It is dressed in armor of cured leather_.

A war dog is a canine specially bred for strength and aggression, then trained for warfare or guard duty.

War dogs are proficient in light armor and are normally dressed in   leather barding by their owners. A few war dogs wear spiked armor,  they  are not proficient in weapons so have a -4 penalty to attack with   armor spikes.

A typical war dog is 2½ to 3 feet tall at the shoulder and weighs from 150 to 180 pounds.

 *Combat*
A war dog will attack on command or when threatened by a stranger.  Normally, the dog grabs its opponent and tears into them with its jaws.  War dogs with special training (see Training a War Dog, below) can be  taught to pin or disarm an opponent on command, instead of fighting to  kill or injure. A few war dogs can make trip attacks just as wolves do  (see the Wolf entry).
*
Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a war dog must hit an opponent up to 1 size category larger than itself with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold. 

*Skills:* War dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.


*Training A War Dog*
War dogs can be trained for a general purpose and taught tricks  following the rules for the Handle Animal skill. A trained war dog gains  the attack trick as a bonus trick, in addition to the maximum of 6  tricks it can learn with its Intelligence of 2. Some war dogs are taught  tricks that are not in the standard selection described in the Handle  Animal skill. Most such tricks teach the dog to use a particular special  attack against an opponent on command. Examples of these "combat  tricks" (and their associated Handle Animal DCs) include Disarm (DC 25),  Pin (DC 20) or Trip  (DC 25).

War dog pups are worth 50 gp apiece on the open market, while trained war dogs are  worth 250Y gp each. Professional trainers charge 100 gp to rear or train a  war dog.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 18, 2011)

I'm wondering about lowering the Dex to 13, like the SRD Hellhound, so it's not all-around better than a Riding Dog in a fight.

Also, I imagine them being overmuscled bruisers, so might not be as agile as a regular Medium-sized dog.


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2011)

Yeah, let's lower the Dex.

Since they theoretically are only found where they are domesticated, and organization of "Any" makes sense.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yeah, let's lower the Dex.
> 
> Since they theoretically are only found where they are domesticated, and organization of "Any" makes sense.




I'd rather stick to "Organization: Domesticated" like the SRD Warhorse.


----------



## freyar (Nov 23, 2011)

"Domesticated" makes sense to me.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> "Domesticated" makes sense to me.




Same here.

Just the flavour text to finalize, then?


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Same here.
> 
> Just the flavour text to finalize, then?




It appears so.


----------



## freyar (Nov 29, 2011)

I guess so!

Actually, a question about the bracketed text.  Can you train animals to attack with armor spikes?  I didn't notice anything relevant in Handle Animal.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2011)

freyar said:


> I guess so!
> 
> Actually, a question about the bracketed text.  Can you train animals to attack with armor spikes?  I didn't notice anything relevant in Handle Animal.




Excellent question.  I'm curious too...


----------



## Cleon (Nov 30, 2011)

Shade said:


> Excellent question.  I'm curious too...




I'd suspect they'd fight as if they were nonproficient in the armor spikes.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd suspect they'd fight as if they were nonproficient in the armor spikes.




Let's explicitly note that in the flavor to cover our assets.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's explicitly note that in the flavor to cover our assets.




Ive updated the *Working Draft* with "A few war dogs wear spiked armour, they are not proficient in weapons so have a -4 penalty to attack with armor spikes".


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Ive updated the *Working Draft* with "A few war dogs wear spiked armour, they are not proficient in weapons so have a -4 penalty to attack with armor spikes".




Lookin' good.  I suppose we just need a general description and another line or two of flavor/tactics, and it should be good to go.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> Lookin' good.  I suppose we just need a general description and another line or two of flavor/tactics, and it should be good to go.




Hmm...

_A powerfully built dog with a massive head and heavy jaws. It is dressed in armor of cured leather_.

A war dog is a canine specially bred for strength and aggression, then trained for warfare or guard duty.

War dogs are proficient in light armor and are normally dressed in  leather barding by their owners. A few war dogs wear spiked armor,  they are not proficient in weapons so have a -4 penalty to attack with  armor spikes.

A typical war dog is 2½ to 3 feet tall at the shoulder and weighs from 150 to 180 pounds.

 *Combat*
A war dog will attack on command or when threatened by a stranger. Normally, the dog grabs its opponent and tears into them with its jaws. War dogs with special training (see Training a War Dog, below) can be taught to pin or disarm an opponent on command, instead of fighting to kill or injure. A few war dogs can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry).


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2011)

I combined it with your working draft and added to Homebrews.

Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> I combined it with your working draft and added to Homebrews.
> 
> Finished?




Since I mentioned a "Training a War Dog entry", shouldn't we give it one?

*Training A War Dog*
War dogs can be trained for a general purpose and taught tricks following the rules for the Handle Animal skill. A trained war dog gains the attack trick as a bonus trick, in addition to the maximum of 6 tricks it can learn with its Intelligence of 2. Some war dogs are taught tricks that are not in the standard selection described in the Handle Animal skill. Most such tricks teach the dog to use a particular special attack against an opponent on command. Examples of these "combat tricks" (and their associated Handle Animal DCs) include Disarm (DC 25), Pin (DC 20) or Trip  (DC 25).

War dog pups are worth X gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth Y gp each. Professional trainers charge Z gp to rear or train a war dog.


----------



## freyar (Dec 4, 2011)

Do we need the prices?  The riding dog doesn't have them?  But comparing to similar hounds in the CC, we should probably put training at 500 gp or so and pups at something also like 500 gp.  Young aren't listed separately (isn't a "young dog" really a pup anyway?).


----------



## Cleon (Dec 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Do we need the prices?  The riding dog doesn't have them?  But comparing to similar hounds in the CC, we should probably put training at 500 gp or so and pups at something also like 500 gp.  Young aren't listed separately (isn't a "young dog" really a pup anyway?).




A riding dog doesn't have them in the Monster Manual, but it has a price listed in the Player's Handbook (150 gp), which includes training in Combat Riding.

That should give us some idea as to how much a war dog should cost.

In this cast a "young dog" is a fullgrown (or mostly so) but untrained youth. I'm trying to come up with a better name for it...


----------



## freyar (Dec 6, 2011)

Hmm, I still think we don't really need the young dog and pup separately.  Based on the riding dog, maybe 100 gp for the pup plus 100 gp for training?  These seem slightly better than riding dogs.


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I still think we don't really need the young dog and pup separately.  Based on the riding dog, maybe 100 gp for the pup plus 100 gp for training?  These seem slightly better than riding dogs.




That appeals.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I still think we don't really need the young dog and pup separately.  Based on the riding dog, maybe 100 gp for the pup plus 100 gp for training?  These seem slightly better than riding dogs.




Yes, they're definitely better than Riding Dogs.

The cost for raising an animal is usually the same as training one, so that adds up to a total cost of 300 gp - is that too much?


----------



## freyar (Dec 7, 2011)

Hmm, maybe drop the pup cost to 50 gp?  A total of 250 gp probably isn't out of line.  But I wouldn't be too bothered by 300 gp either.  As you like.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, maybe drop the pup cost to 50 gp?  A total of 250 gp probably isn't out of line.  But I wouldn't be too bothered by 300 gp either.  As you like.




250 gp would suit me better.


----------



## freyar (Dec 9, 2011)

Then pups will cost 50gp and rearing or training 100 gp (each, but that's not usually spelled out).


----------



## Cleon (Dec 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Then pups will cost 50gp and rearing or training 100 gp (each, but that's not usually spelled out).




Yap Yap!

That's War Dog Pup for "yes".

Updated the *Working Draft*.


----------



## freyar (Dec 11, 2011)

All done, I guess.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> All done, I guess.




Come to think of it, I should change the name to "Dog, War" to match the SRD's "Dog, Riding".

The Jump skill is also off by two points - it adds up to +11, not +9 (Str 3, speed 4, racial 4).

Updated the *Working Draft*.

That looks finished now.


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Come to think of it, I should change the name to "Dog, War" to match the SRD's "Dog, Riding".




That's how I've had it in Homebrews.  I'll compare your working draft to it and update it.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> That's how I've had it in Homebrews.  I'll compare your working draft to it and update it.




Fine!


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2011)

Any more of these dogs, or are they done?


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Any more of these dogs, or are they done?




I think that's it.  All the remaining canids I could find appear to be magical beasts.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> I think that's it.  All the remaining canids I could find appear to be magical beasts.




So, any non-canid real world beasties you fancy doing?


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So, any non-canid real world beasties you fancy doing?




Nope.  I only fancy canids.  

Any requests?   A quick spot check of the unconverted list shows some birds, some snakes, and "giant" versions of creatures for which dire versions already exist.


----------



## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

Any intelligent giant versions like the owls and eagles?


----------



## Shade (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Any intelligent giant versions like the owls and eagles?




Possibly, but I hadn't considered them here since they'd likely be magical beasts.


----------



## freyar (Dec 16, 2011)

Thought we've done some of those in this thread...  Well, pick whatever you'd like.


----------



## Shade (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Thought we've done some of those in this thread...  Well, pick whatever you'd like.




We may have, and I don't mind doing more.  Just giving you grief.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Nope.  I only fancy canids.
> 
> Any requests?   A quick spot check of the unconverted list shows some birds, some snakes, and "giant" versions of creatures for which dire versions already exist.




How about the AD&D version of the Manta Ray?

If you read the description they're nothing like a real-world manta ray (which is amply represented by 3rd edition's SRD Manta Ray).

The AD&D Manta is more like a Dire Man-Eating Stingray or something.


----------



## freyar (Dec 18, 2011)

Sounds fun, why not?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds fun, why not?




I'll post the Monster Manual / MC1 stats then.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 18, 2011)

*Ray, Manta*
*Climate/Terrain: * Shallow tropical waters
*Frequency: * Uncommon
*Organization: * Solitary
*Activity Cycle: * Day
*Diet: * Carnivore
*Intelligence: * Non- (0)
*Treasure: * J-N(×10), Q(×5), X
*Alignment: * Neutral
*No. Appearing: * 1
*Armor Class: * 6
*Movement: * Sw 18
*Hit Dice: * 8-11
*THAC0: * 13 (8 HD), 11 (9-10 HD), 9 (11 HD)
*No. of Attacks: * 1 tail or 1 bite
*Damage/Attack: * 3-12 (bite) or 2-20 (sting)
*Special Attacks: * See below
*Special Defenses: * Nil
*Magic Resistance: * Nil
*Size: * G (32’-40’ wingspan)
*Morale: * Elite (13)
*XP Value:*
*8 HD* 3,000
*9 HD* 4,000
*10 HD* 5,000
*11 HD* 6,000

Rays, also known as _sea bats_, are native to warm tropical shallow waters. They are broad, flat creatures, with eyes on the upper, dark colored surface of their body and the mouth and gills on the lighter underbelly. Their pectoral fins are huge, which gives them a batlike appearance, and they use their short tail as a rudder/ They feed on mollusks and crustaceans and only rarely attack humans, with the exception of the malevolent ixitxachitl. These long, flat creatures bury themselves in the silt and sand of the sea floor in order to surprise their prey.

*Manta Ray*
These huge creatures, which weigh as much as 3,000 pounds, bury themselves in the ocean floor waiting for victims to arrive. The manta has a giant maw (10 to 12 feet across) that can totally engulf any creature man-sized or smaller in a single bite. If the manta’s to hit roll is 2 or more greater than the number it needed to hit (e.g., rolls a 16 or better when it could hit on a 14), then it has swallowed its prey. Swallowed creatures die at the end of six rounds. Any creature swallowed can attack from inside the ray at -4 with a dagger or shortsword (other weapons require too much space to wield effectively); the ray’s Armor Class remains the same. A manta ray can swallow but one man-sized creature or three S creatures at once.

If creatures attack its rear, it can use its stinger instead of its bite. If it strikes, the victim suffers 2-20 points of damage and must save versus paralysation or be stunned for 2-8 rounds.

The manta ray’s stomach may contain treasure.

_Originally found in MC1 - Monstrous Compendium Volume One (1989)._ 

*RAY, Manta*
*FREQUENCY:* _Uncommon_
*NO. APPEARING:* _1_
*ARMOR CLASS:* _6_
*MOVE:* _18”_
*HIT DICE:* _8-11_
*%IN LAIR:* _0%_
*TREASURE TYPE:* _J-N (× 1O),
O(× 5), X_
*NO. OF ATTACKS:* _1 and 1_
*DAMAGE/ATTACK :* _3-12/2-20_
*SPECIAL ATTACKS:* _See below_
*SPECIAL DEFENSES:* _Nil_
*MAGIC RESISTANCE:* _Standard_
*INTELLIGENCE:* _Non-_
*ALIGNMENT* _Neutral_
*SIZE:* _L_
*PSIONIC ABILITY:* _Nil_
*Attack/Defense Modes:* _Nil_

*Manta Ray:* These huge creatures “fly” through the worm ocean waters searching for prey. Small specimens have a tip-to-tip spread of 32’. While the largest grow to some 44’ across. They often rest on the floor of the sea, their coloration blending with the bottom, waiting for a victim to pass. The manta ray then attacks. It has a huge maw- the mouth size equal to one-quarter of its width — which can totally engulf most non-giant creatures in a single gulp. If the manta scores 10% (2 numbers) over its required “to hit” score, it has swallowed such prey as will fit in its mouth. Any creature swallowed will be dead in 6 melee rounds. The creature may attack the manta ray from inside, its armor class remains the same, and hits are at a cumulative -1 per melee round with regard to damage, i.e. -6 in the last melee round the swallowed creature can attack before being dead. In addition to its bite, the manta ray has a powerful tail spine. This weapon inflicts 2-20 points of damage upon any creature it strikes, and if the victim fails to make a saving throw against paralyzation it is stunned for 2-8 melee rounds from the force of the blow. The manta ray will strike with its tail spine only in situations where it is seriously threatened and the opponent to be struck must be at the rear quarter of the ray. The manta ray’s stomach is the repository of indigestible items — such as the treasure types indicated.

_Originally appeared in Monster Manual (Gary Gygax, 1977)._


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2011)

I fancy calling them "sea bats" like the original writeup suggests as a secondary moniker.

Ray, Sea Bat?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> I fancy calling them "sea bats" like the original writeup suggests as a secondary moniker.
> 
> Ray, Sea Bat?




I was thinking "Dire Manta" or "Devil Ray", but Sea Bat would do.

Sea Bat does have the advantage of appearing in the Monstrous Compendium.


----------



## freyar (Dec 20, 2011)

I like "sea bat" as well.

Start by advancing an SRD manta ray to 8HD and see what we get?  Add Swallow Whole, certainly.  

Anyone else find it amusing that the 3.5 manta ray (in SRD and MM) starts at Large but advances to Medium by adding HD?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> I like "sea bat" as well.
> 
> Start by advancing an SRD manta ray to 8HD and see what we get?  Add Swallow Whole, certainly.




And we'll need a sting in their tail, too. 

Adding a standard size advancement makes them:

Huge, Str 23, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

That's the same size and Strength as a Dire Shark. It seems appropriate to have a Sea Bat of similar power to a Dire Shark, although I also consider the SRD Dire Shark rather underpowered.



freyar said:


> Anyone else find it amusing that the 3.5 manta ray (in SRD and MM) starts at Large but advances to Medium by adding HD?




Perhaps they live at greater depths, and the immense water pressure makes them shrink.


----------



## freyar (Dec 21, 2011)

I don't think I'd want to make the sea bats more powerful than this, though.  I like that ability line pretty well.


----------



## Shade (Dec 21, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.  

I upscaled the Stormwrack stingray's sting attack and poison, and included its Hide bonus on sea floors.  I currently kept the manta's ram attack, but I'm not sure we need it with the addition of a sting and bite.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I upscaled the Stormwrack stingray's sting attack and poison, and included its Hide bonus on sea floors.  I currently kept the manta's ram attack, but I'm not sure we need it with the addition of a sting and bite.




I'm thinking we could leave in the Ram attack, but only so it qualifies for Multiattack...

The current sting isn't very close to the AD&D original, which stuns for 2-8 rounds.

Indeed, the description of it stunning due to "the force of the blow" suggests it's a tail-slap tied to some kind of a Stunning Blow special attack. 

I'm also wondering whether the Bite should be the primary attack instead of the Sting/Tail.


----------



## freyar (Dec 22, 2011)

I read it like the bite should be primary.

Poison is more consistent with similar critters, but I can see the stunning blow angle.  Shade, what do you think?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> I read it like the bite should be primary.




Same here.



freyar said:


> Poison is more consistent with similar critters, but I can see the stunning blow angle.  Shade, what do you think?




Maybe a poison that has stunning primary damage and sickening secondary damage?

Anyhow, I'm happy waiting for Shade.


----------



## freyar (Dec 24, 2011)

Hmm, don't think we've ever done a stunning poison before.  That could be fun.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, don't think we've ever done a stunning poison before.  That could be fun.




If it offers fun, we should do it!


----------



## freyar (Dec 25, 2011)

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial damage stunned for 1 round, secondary damage sickened for 1 minute.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

That might work.  Of course, durations can be adjusted.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial damage stunned for 1 round, secondary damage sickened for 1 minute.  The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> That might work.  Of course, durations can be adjusted.




The stunning should have a multiple round duration if we follow the original, 2d4 rounds to be precise.

Maybe add some Con damage, as the tail did 2-20 damage in the original, considerably more than its bite.

...Although it would be a closer match to give its tail 1.5 Str bonus on damage to match that, since that 2-20 damage was due to the impact of the "stinger", not the "save vs paralysis" venom.

Hmm, should we consider making the venom paralysis instead of stun?


----------



## freyar (Dec 31, 2011)

What did 1e stunning do compared to the 3.X conditions?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> What did 1e stunning do compared to the 3.X conditions?




From what I remember, "stunning" didn't have a formal description in the DMG, but it usually involved the victim being unable to perform any actions for a number of rounds.

Sometimes a monster's description would add some detailed effect to  stunning, like a penalty to AC, but it was often pretty vague.

The best idea of the effect probably comes from the PHB spell descriptions. Note that _color spray_ of them refers to _power word, stun_ for the effects of stunning:



			
				AD&D 1E The Players' Handbook said:
			
		

> *Power Word, Stun** (7th level Magic-User Spell)*
> When a _power word, stun_ is uttered, any creature of the magic-user's choice will be _stunned_ - reeling and unable to think coherently or act.
> 
> *Symbol (9th level Magic-User Spell)*
> ...


----------



## freyar (Jan 2, 2012)

Pretty similar to 3.X stunning, I guess.  Well, a brief paralysis poison would be fairly close to stunning and is more consistent with most monsters.  I'm fine with paralysis from the poison and + 1-1/2 Str on the sting damage.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> Pretty similar to 3.X stunning, I guess.  Well, a brief paralysis poison would be fairly close to stunning and is more consistent with most monsters.  I'm fine with paralysis from the poison and + 1-1/2 Str on the sting damage.




So, 2d4 rounds paralysis for primary damage?

What effect for the secondary damage, ability damage of some sort? I was thinking something like 1d4 Dex.

Incidentally, the Tome of Horrors Stingray had a poison with paralysis as a primary effect and Strength damage as a secondary effect.

EDIT: Correction, that should be Tome of Horrors II.


----------



## freyar (Jan 2, 2012)

2d4 paralysis and 1d4 Dex secondary works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> 2d4 paralysis and 1d4 Dex secondary works for me.




Suits me.

Should we give them tremorsense, so they can sense prey while buried, or do we use the Crocodile's "buried except for the eyes" skill bonuses?

Do we wait for Shade to be around to update the Homebrew, or start a Working Draft so we can keep track of the updates?


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Do we wait for Shade to be around to update the Homebrew, or start a Working Draft so we can keep track of the updates?




Wait no longer!

Updated.

I'm OK with tremorsense.  What range?


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2012)

60 ft, maybe, but I think I actually prefer the crocodile version.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> 60 ft, maybe, but I think I actually prefer the crocodile version.




Hold on, sharks have 30 ft Blindsense, so how about giving the Sea Bat that?

Rays are closely related to sharks and have similar sense organs, after all.


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2012)

Good grief.  Is that echolocation?  Yes, give it to the sea bats.  It'd be like bats too.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> Good grief.  Is that echolocation?  Yes, give it to the sea bats.  It'd be like bats too.




That settles that question.

The original creature had pretty good treasure - J-N(×10), Q(×5), X.

I'm thinking  		1/10 coins; 50% goods (stone or metal only); 50% items (stone or metal only), since the valuables are either in their guts or are lying around their lair after being spat out.

Challenge Rating 6? Stunning and Swallow Whole is pretty nasty.

Advancement 9-16 HD (Huge); 17-24 HD (Gargantuan)?


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2012)

I'm in agreement with all that.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 4, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'm in agreement with all that.  Updated.




It's starting to look good!

Weren't were going to give it Crocodile-type "only the eyes are visible" skill bonuses? Hmm, come to thi_nk of it the "burying in the silt" skill bonuses we used for our Yohoia_ and _Opabinia_ conversions. I'd also like to increase the racial bonus to +8, or maybe even +12 like a lion in undergrowth, to compensate for its Huge creature's -8 to Hide. That gives it a +10 or +14 Hide modifier, which means it's actually got a decent chance to surprise CR-appropriate opponents.

Thus:
*Skills:*  *When it is lying still along the seafloor, a sea bat has a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks. Further, a sea bat can bury itself in silt or mud with only its eyes and claws showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.​I think we'd better add the description from the shark's underwater Blindsense:
*Blindsense (Ex):* A sea bat can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the sea bat is underwater.​


----------



## freyar (Jan 4, 2012)

Those look good.


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## Cleon (Jan 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> Those look good.




That seems to be it then, apart from the flavour text?


----------



## freyar (Jan 7, 2012)

I think so.

Tactics: A sea bat often attacks stealthily, attempting to paralyze and swallow an opponent before its companions notice.  Sea bats are canny enough to avoid large groups.


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## Cleon (Jan 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think so.
> 
> Tactics: A sea bat often attacks stealthily, attempting to paralyze and swallow an opponent before its companions notice.  Sea bats are canny enough to avoid large groups.




That doesn't match their preferred tactics very well...

A sea bat normally buries itself in silt and waits until it senses the approach of prey. It then burst out of the mud and tries to swallow and paralyze as many opponents as it can. Sea bats do not attack large creatures except in self defense, since they are unable to eat creatures too big to swallow. They are canny enough to avoid large groups.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

That'll work better, sure.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> That'll work better, sure.




Good.

We just need some flavour to finish them off then.

Hmm... I'm not sure I like the 50 ft. swim speed Shade gave it. The SRD Manta Ray swims at 30 ft., as does the _Tome of Horror_ Stingray.

Well I'm alright with it if you lot are. A 50 ft. swim speed does suggests they sometimes actively pursue prey though. Maybe we should add something to that effect to the tactics?


----------



## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

The original critter has a pretty fast swim speed also.  Well, it's another point of differentiation.  For tactics, maybe

A sea bat normally buries itself in silt and waits until it senses the approach of prey. It then burst out of the mud and tries to swallow and paralyze as many opponents as it can, and it is willing to pursue victims over distance if necessary.  Sea bats do not attack large creatures except in self defense, since they are unable to eat creatures too big to swallow. They are canny enough to avoid large groups.


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> The original critter has a pretty fast swim speed also.  Well, it's another point of differentiation.  For tactics, maybe
> 
> A sea bat normally buries itself in silt and waits until it senses the approach of prey. It then burst out of the mud and tries to swallow and paralyze as many opponents as it can, and it is willing to pursue victims over distance if necessary.  Sea bats do not attack large creatures except in self defense, since they are unable to eat creatures too big to swallow. They are canny enough to avoid large groups.




I'd prefer this arrangement:

A sea bat is willing to chase down its  victims, but normally buries itself in silt and waits until it senses the  approach of prey. It then burst out of the mud and tries to swallow and  paralyze as many opponents as it can.  Sea bats do not attack large  creatures except in self defense, since they are unable to eat creatures  too big to swallow. They are canny enough to avoid large groups.


----------



## freyar (Jan 12, 2012)

Works for me!


----------



## Cleon (Jan 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> Works for me!




Since Shade is AVWL (Away Vacationing Without Leave ), I'll put start a Working Draft so we can keep track of what we've got so far.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 13, 2012)

*Sea Bat Working Draft*

*Sea Bat*
Huge Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 8d8+16 (52 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: Swim 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (–2 size, +6 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+20
Attack:  Bite +10 melee (2d6+6) or sting +10 melee (1d8+9 plus poison) or ram +10 melee (1d8+6)
Full Attack: Bite +10 melee (2d6+6) and sting +8 melee (1d8+9 plus poison) or ram +10 melee (1d8+6)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Blindsense 30 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +4*, Listen +9, Spot +8, Swim +14
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Multiattack
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods (stone or metal only); 50% items (stone or metal only)
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Huge); 17-24 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

_This vast fish appears to be some sort of ray. It has __horn-like fleshy lobes on each side of a wide mouth and __powerful "wings" for swimming. Its lash-like tail is armed with several spines._

 Enormous relatives of the manta rays, sea bats are aggressive predators  that swallow their prey whole, often after paralyzing them with  poisonous tail stings. Sea bats live in shallow tropical waters where the ocean's floor is muddy or sandy.

An average sea bat has "wings" than span 32 feet and a body roughly 20 feet long. The tail is about 15 feet long, with one or more  poisonous barbs near the base. It weighs at least 3,000 pounds. 

COMBAT

 A sea bat is willing to chase down its  victims, but normally buries  itself in silt and waits until it senses the  approach of prey. It then  burst out of the mud and tries to swallow and  paralyze as many  opponents as it can.  Sea bats do not attack large  creatures except in  self defense, since they are unable to eat creatures  too big to  swallow. They are canny enough to avoid large groups.

*Blindsense (Ex):* A sea bat can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the sea bat is underwater.

*Poison (Ex):* Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial damage paralysis for 2d4  rounds, secondary damage 1d4 Dex. The save DC is Constitution-based.

* Swallow Whole (Ex):* A sea bat can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of  two or more sizes smaller than itself by making a successful grapple  check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d6+9 points of crushing damage  plus 6 points of acid damage per round from the ray's gizzard. A  swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or  piercing weapon to deal 20 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 13). Once  the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed  opponent must cut its own way out. A Huge sea bat's interior can hold 1  Medium, 4 Small, 16 Tiny, or 64 Diminutive or smaller opponents.

*Skills:* A sea bat has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform  some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10  on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run  action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*When it is lying still along the seafloor, a sea bat has a +12 racial  bonus on Hide checks. Further, a sea bat can bury itself in silt or mud  with only its eyes showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide  checks.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 13, 2012)

OK, the only mechanical element we have left undefined is its Swallow Whole capacity and damage.

The original 1E version could "swallow such prey as will fit in its mouth" and had a mouth between 8 and 11 feet wide. The 2E version "can totally engulf any creature man-sized or smaller in a single bite... A manta ray can swallow but one man-sized creature or three S creatures at once."

Damage-wise, the AD&D Manta Ray killed swallowed creatures in 6 rounds, as fast as a Purple Worm. Indeed, the description of its swallow attack is pretty much the same as an AD&D Purple Worm's.


----------



## freyar (Jan 16, 2012)

Sounds like it can't swallow anything bigger than Medium.  How about we follow the purple worm, which also can contain only 2 sizes below itself: 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive, or 512 Fine opponents.

For damage, then do bite + Str for damage?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sounds like it can't swallow anything bigger than Medium.  How about we follow the purple worm, which also can contain only 2 sizes below itself: 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive, or 512 Fine opponents.




One version of the original specifically limits it to a single M-sized creature, so how about 1 Medium, 4 Small, 16 Tiny, 64 Diminutive, or 256 Fine opponents?



freyar said:


> For damage, then do bite + Str for damage?




Make it Bite + 1.5 Str and I'm in.

Make the acid damage 8 points like a Purple Worm, or 6 points since it's smaller?

20 hps to cut oneself free?


----------



## freyar (Jan 17, 2012)

All that's fine, and I'll go with 6 hp acid damage.


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## Shade (Jan 18, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Since Shade is AVWL (Away Vacationing Without Leave ), I'll put start a Working Draft so we can keep track of what we've got so far.




Oh, I had Leave.  

I'll reconcile your working draft with my Homebrews shortly.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> All that's fine, and I'll go with 6 hp acid damage.




Updating *Working Draft*.


----------



## freyar (Jan 18, 2012)

All right then, how do we want to flavor this differently than a normal manta?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> All right then, how do we want to flavor this differently than a normal manta?




Yes. Mantas don't have tail barbs, for a start. Plus there's that whole eating people business.


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## freyar (Jan 19, 2012)

This thing looks like a manta ray, but it wants to eat you!

Uhhh, more seriously, I guess the flavor should just say something like that.

Relatives of the manta ray, sea bats are more aggressive predators, delivering poison via their sting.  ...


----------



## Cleon (Jan 20, 2012)

Shade said:


> Oh, I had Leave.




You didn't get leave from us!


----------



## Cleon (Jan 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> This thing looks like a manta ray, but it wants to eat you!
> 
> Uhhh, more seriously, I guess the flavor should just say something like that.
> 
> Relatives of the manta ray, sea bats are more aggressive predators, delivering poison via their sting.  ...




I'd emphasize these things are BIG and the "more" seems redundant.

e.g.:

Enormous relatives of the manta rays, sea bats are aggressive predators that swallow their prey whole, often after paralyzing them with poisonous tail stings.


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2012)

That's good enough for the flavor.  Now the description: A great swimming wing with a wicked tail.


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## Cleon (Jan 23, 2012)

freyar said:


> That's good enough for the flavor.  Now the description: A great swimming wing with a wicked tail.




Can we assume the reader knows what a ray looks like?

_This vast fish appears to be some sort of ray. Like a manta ray, it has __horn-like fleshy lobes on each side of a wide mouth and __powerful "wings" for swimming. Unlike a manta, its tail sports spines like a sting ray, albeit much larger._

Or we could cut out the references to mantas and sting rays...

_This vast fish appears to be some sort of ray. It has __horn-like fleshy lobes on each side of a wide mouth and __powerful "wings" for swimming. Its lash-like tail is armed with several spines._

Hmm, I think I prefer the latter.


----------



## Shade (Jan 23, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, I think I prefer the latter.




Me too.


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## Cleon (Jan 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> Me too.




 Updating *Working Draft*.     

I added a "Sea bats live in shallow tropical waters where the ocean's floor is muddy or sandy" to match the original Terrain entry and Habitat.

Are we done now?


----------



## Shade (Jan 24, 2012)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




If its tail is as long as its wingspan (e.g. 32 feet), why does it only have a 10 ft. Reach? Having over 30 foot of tail suggests a 15 ft. Reach, even though the sting is near the base of the tail.

Besides, Manta Rays have relatively short tails. If the Manta in this picture had a 32 foot wingspan I'd guesstimate its tail would be roughly 12 feet long.

Admittedly some Sting Rays have tails as long or longer than their bodies, but this was originally describes as a "Manta Ray", so I reckon it ought to have similar proportions.

I'd cut that bit out, and give it a 20 ft body length and 15 ft tail. I wouldn't change the tail's reach, since the sting isn't near the end of the tail.

  Updating *Working Draft*.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2012)

Looks good.   Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 25, 2012)

Shade said:


> Looks good.   Updated.




I declare this Sea Bat ready to launch!


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2012)

*smashes champaign bottle*


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## Cleon (Jan 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> *smashes champaign bottle*




Huzzah!


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2012)

Any requests for what's next?


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## Cleon (Jan 27, 2012)

Shade said:


> Any requests for what's next?




The X13 Giant Sand Crab?


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2012)

Cleon said:


> The X13 Giant Sand Crab?




Sure!   Do you have the stats handy?


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2012)

Shade said:


> Sure!   Do you have the stats handy?




I'll try to post 'em tomorrow.

Hold on, it is tomorrow - make that I'll probably post them this evening.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'll try to post 'em tomorrow.
> 
> Hold on, it is tomorrow - make that I'll probably post them this evening.




It is now many tomorrows later...


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> It is now many tomorrows later...




Most days are many tomorrows later from _sometime_.

Here you go...

*Giant Crab
**Armor Class:* 2
*Hit Dice:* 9
*Move:* 160’ (60’)
*Attacks:* 3
*Damage:* 1-8, 1-8, 1-10
*No. Appearing:* 1
*Save As:* F9
*Morale:* 10
*Alignment:* N
*XP Value:* 500

The giant crab resembles a normal sand crab except that its body is huge (10 feet in diameter). The creature has four legs, two claws, and crushing mandibles. Its normal fighting sequence involves a claw, claw, bite routine.

Although fierce, the giant crab will normally fight only to protect its lair, usually a sea cave just at the water line. Because of its quickness, the crab will enjoy +1 on all its initiatives to attack.

These creatures rarely appear in the day. They are more likely to forage for food at night on lonely beaches at low tide.

_Originally from X13 - Crown of Ancient Glory (1987)._


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

A few points to bear in mind.

The +1 on its initiative obviously suggests a high Dexterity.

All crabs have 10 legs (the first 2 are claws, the rest usually for walking), but it says this chap has 4 legs.

The explanation is simple - it's a hermit crab.

Hermit crabs have claws on their first pair of legs, walk on their second and third pair, and the next two pairs of legs are very small and used either to hold the shell they hide in or clean their gills. So, only four of its legs are "legs" in the walking sense.

What's more, the World's largest living species of land arthropod is a hermit crab, the Coconut Crab.

I suspect this "Giant Sand Crab" has similar habits, and probably has young that hide their soft bodies in stolen shells or coconuts, but the vermin's chitin grows thick and hard when it reaches a certain size.

Oh, and it has 2 claw attacks AND a bite, obviously.


----------



## freyar (Feb 10, 2012)

All good points.  The AC is fairly good, too, suggesting a decent NA from the shell.

Does a 10 ft diameter sound like Large to you?  I guess it would be a bit small for Huge.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> All good points.  The AC is fairly good, too, suggesting a decent NA from the shell.
> 
> Does a 10 ft diameter sound like Large to you?  I guess it would be a bit small for Huge.




Not necessarily.

If its body/shell is 10 foot in diameter its legs could easily add that much length to either side, for a crab up to 30 feet across. That definitely says Huge to me. An average elephant's body is not far from 10 feet long, after all.

If the quoted 10 foot diameter body covers everything, including legs, Large would be appropriate.

I prefer making them Large, since their claw and bite damage seems a better match to a Large monster and their 9 Hit Dice is within the 6-11 HD range of _Stormwrack_'s Large Monstrous Crab.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2012)

Let's make 'em Large, with advancement to Huge (at least).


----------



## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> Let's make 'em Large, with advancement to Huge (at least).




Agreed. I'll start a Working Draft.


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

*Giant Sand Crab Working Draft*

*Sand Crab, Giant*
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
*Hit Dice:* 9d8+48 (88 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class:* 18 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 17
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+20
*Attack:* Claw +11 melee (1d8+9)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +11 melee (1d8+9) and bite +6 melee (1d10+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Constrict 1d8+9, improved grab, powerful claws
*Special Qualities:* Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., scent, vermin traits
*Saves:* Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 22, Dex 12, Con 21, Int –, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* Hide +1, Spot +4
*Feats:* Toughness *(B)*
*Environment:* Temperate coastal
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 10-13 HD (Large), 14-27 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_This massive crablike creature moves on four legs, scuttling with  surprising speed and grace for its size. It also has two powerful claws  and crushing mandibles._

Giant sand crabs are close kin to normal monstrous crabs (see _Stormwrack_).  They scavenge along beaches, and usually lair in burrows or caves just  at the water line. They are more likely to forage for food at night on  lonely beaches at low tide. Like other monstrous crabs, giant sand crabs  are scavengers, feeding upon the reeking bodies of dead sea creatures  that wash up on shore.

A giant sand crab has a body up to 10 feet across and a legspan of 15 to 20 feet. They normally weigh 1500 to 3000 pounds.

*Combat*
  Giant sand crabs are fierce creatures, but normally fight only in self  defense or to protect their lairs. They are not above attacking wounded  but still-living creatures if they are hungry. Straightforward  combatants, these crabs scuttle forward with surprising speed to attack  with their claws and mandibles. Once it has food or a living opponent in  its claws, a giant sand crab tries to retreat into its lair to eat.  Creatures held in its claws when it does so will soon drown if they  can't breathe water.

*Constrict (Ex):* With a successful grapple check, a giant sand crab can crush a grabbed opponent, dealing 1d8+9 points of bludgeoning damage.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* If a giant sand crab hits an opponent that is at least one size category smaller than itself with a claw attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it also constricts on the same round.

*Powerful Claws (Ex):* A giant sand crab always applies 1.5 times its Strength modifier to damage inflicted with its claws. Additionally, it gains a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.

*Vermin Traits:* A giant sand crab is immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). It also has darkvision (60-foot range).

* Skills*: A giant sand crab has a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

The above working draft is based on the Monstrous Crab from James Jacob's *Monsters of the Tides* on the Wizards website with a few bits of the Stormwrack Monstrous Crab, since (a) I like Jacob's version better and (b) it seems a closer match to the X13 Giant Crab.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2012)

Lookin' good!   The vermin traits don't need to be printed, so we can drop those.  CR 5 seems about right.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> Lookin' good!   The vermin traits don't need to be printed, so we can drop those.  CR 5 seems about right.




Anything else you fancy for them mechanically, or do they just need some flavour? Or lots of butter?


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Anything else you fancy for them mechanically, or do they just need some flavour? Or lots of butter?




Drown 'em in butter.   

_Ohhhh...Pinchyyyyy...._


----------



## Cleon (Feb 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> Drown 'em in butter.
> 
> _Ohhhh...Pinchyyyyy...._




No need to fear for Pinchy.

My pet Diminutive Monstrous Crab is quite safe on another thread.


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## freyar (Feb 14, 2012)

Just don't boil them alive --- that's animal cruelty!  Besides, we need the disclaimer that "no animals were harmed in the making of this thread." 

Much anything to say on tactics other than this?

Giant sand crabs hold onto one victim at a time, constricting until their prey is dead.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Just don't boil them alive --- that's animal cruelty!  Besides, we need the disclaimer that "no animals were harmed in the making of this thread."
> 
> Much anything to say on tactics other than this?
> 
> Giant sand crabs hold onto one victim at a time, constricting until their prey is dead.




Eh? We need tactics for a swarm.

A giant crab swarms moves over anything that smells like food, then attacks until either the swarm is dispersed or there's nothing left of its opponents besides inedible scraps.


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Eh? We need tactics for a swarm.
> 
> A giant crab swarms moves over anything that smells like food, then attacks until either the swarm is dispersed or there's nothing left of its opponents besides inedible scraps.




Mmmmm...inedible scraps.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> Mmmmm...inedible scraps.




We seem to be getting our Crabs in a tangle, don't we? I'll add those scraps of tactics to the *Crab Swarms*.

Anyhow, here's what I came up with for the Sand Crab flavour:

_This massive crablike creature moves on four legs, scuttling with surprising speed and grace for its size. It also has two powerful claws and crushing mandibles._

Giant sand crabs are close kin to normal monstrous crabs (see _Stormwrack_). They scavenge along beaches, and usually lair in burrows or caves just at the water line. They are more likely to forage for food at night on lonely beaches at low tide. Like other monstrous crabs, giant sand crabs are scavengers, feeding upon the reeking bodies of dead sea creatures that wash up on shore.

A giant sand crab has a body up to 10 feet across and a legspan of 15 to 20 feet. They normally weigh 1500 to 3000 pounds.

*Combat*
 Giant sand crabs are fierce creatures, but normally fight only in self defense or to protect their lairs. They are not above attacking wounded but still-living creatures if they are hungry. Straightforward combatants, these crabs scuttle forward with surprising speed to attack with their claws and mandibles. Once it has food or a living opponent in its claws, a giant sand crab tries to retreat into its lair to eat. Creatures held in its claws when it does so will soon drown if they can't breathe water.


----------



## Shade (Feb 21, 2012)

Looks good.  Go ahead and update your working draft, we'll give it a lookover, and if it's ready transfer to Homebrews and move on.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 21, 2012)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Go ahead and update your working draft, we'll give it a lookover, and if it's ready transfer to Homebrews and move on.




Updating *Working Draft*.


----------



## Shade (Feb 21, 2012)

Transferred to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Feb 22, 2012)

Shade said:


> Transferred to Homebrews.




Good!

What's next?


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2012)

How about this one?

*Snake, Giant Cobra*
Climate/Terrain: Any tropical 
Frequency: Common 
Organization: Solitary 
Activity Cycle: Day 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Animal (1) 
Treasure: Nil (W) 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 1d6 
Armor Class: 8 
Movement: 12 
Hit Dice: 3 
THAC0: 17 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1d8 plus poison 
Special Attacks: Poison, charm 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: H (12-24’ long) 
Morale: Champion (15-16) 
XP Value: 270
Elder: 975 

Giant cobras are dimly intelligent snakes with hoods marked by two eyelike patterns on the back. They may live as long as a century and are said to gain wisdom in their old age, giving them semi to low intelligence (2-7).

Combat: The giant cobra attacks by rising into a swaying pillar, spreading its hood, and striking with blinding speed. Its 4-inch fangs deliver a poison that kills in 2d4 rounds, but a successful save at -2 results in only 10 points of damage. Cobras can also sway in a mesmerizing way that charms creatures of animal intelligence or less, effectively paralyzing them for 2d6 rounds.

Giant cobras fear fire and will retreat from it, suffering a -6 penalty to morale checks when threatened with open flames.

Habitat/Society: Usually solitary, giant cobras mate once per year in the early spring, often in a location where entire plagues of serpents return year after year. After mating the female cobra lays a clutch of 2d10 eggs in a shallow pit and guards them until they hatch, at which time the young are abandoned.

The population of giant snakes can increase rapidly, so nests of giant cobras are destroyed by humans when discovered. Giant cobra eggs bring 10-500 gp on the market, as they are sought by snake charmers, assassins, or chefs.

Giant cobras live in burrows stolen from other animals; these lairs sometimes contain incidental treasure from their victims, but rarely anything of value. Elder cobras value glittering objects and therefore have treasure type W.

The snakes are active in cycles; they warm themselves in the sun and then hunt, then warm themselves again. In cooler climates or during the monsoon season they may spend more than half their time in their burrows or crevices. They never hunt or fight at night, always fleeing combat in the dark.

Giant cobras are occasionally kept by snake-handling cults and various groups of assassins. They are amenable to training, though they always remain dangerous if not carefully handled.

Ecology: Cobras are powerful enough to kill and eat an entire goat or a demihuman of up to halfling size. They tend to hunt in binges, eating a large meal and then curling up in their lairs for several days or weeks. They have few natural enemies; some varieties of giant weasel hunt them successfully. Giant cobras like the rich flesh of domesticated animals.

Giant cobra venom can be stored in daggers made to hold the liquid in special channels, but it degrades rapidly. The virulent agent decays at a rate of +1 to the saving throw per turn. After 20 minutes the save is made with no penalty; after a full hour, the saving throw is made at +4; after two hours, the save is made at +10. The poison is inert after three hours.

*Elder Giant Cobra*

Elder serpents are wise enough to know the value of stealth and the power of intimidation. They can speak Common (with a lisp) and the trade language of giants, and they are likely to try to browbeat humans and demihumans rather than simply attack them. The elder serpents can hypnotize and paralyze not only animals, but people as well. A victim is allowed a saving throw vs. paralysis to avoid being hypnotized for as long as the cobra concentrates and for 2d6 rounds thereafter.

The elder cobra’s venom is more concentrated than that of its younger brethren (onset of death 1d4 rounds, save at -4). Victims of its bite who successfully save suffer 10 points of damage, but they are paralyzed for 1d6 rounds.

Elder serpents gain an additional Hit Die and suffer no modifier to morale when faced with open flames.

The largest of the elder serpents is called the Grand Snakemaster, and is said to be immortal. When it sheds, the discarded skin is rumored to possess healing powers. Those who eat of it are said to gain wisdom, but since the Grand Snakemaster has never been seen, the truth is questionable.

Originally appeared in ALQ2 - Assassin Mountain (1993).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One version.


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 23, 2012)

Have they done elder snakes in 3e? If not, it could be a template.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2012)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Have they done elder snakes in 3e? If not, it could be a template.




Yep.  It's a template in Dragon #313.


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## Cleon (Feb 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> How about this one?
> 
> *Snake, Giant Cobra*




Another Snake eh, I have no objection.


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## freyar (Feb 28, 2012)

So we just make the Int 1 normal version and then mention the template for the elder one?

I guess it should be a magical beast, like the giant owl, etc, especially with the hypnotic swaying.


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## Cleon (Feb 29, 2012)

freyar said:


> So we just make the Int 1 normal version and then mention the template for the elder one?
> 
> I guess it should be a magical beast, like the giant owl, etc, especially with the hypnotic swaying.




Does the Dragon #313 Elder Snake template include a hypnotic swaying ability?

If not, methinks we should give the standard creature hypno-swaying as a special attack.


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Does the Dragon #313 Elder Snake template include a hypnotic swaying ability?




It has this...

Mesmerizing Sway (Su): An elder serpent can paralyze other creatures as a standard action by swaying slowly and steadily while staring at them. Every creature within 30 feet of the serpent that can see its swaying must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + one-half elder serpent's racial HD + elder serpent's Charisma modifier) to avoid the effect. Failure means the creature is paralyzed for as long as the elder serpent concentrates and for 1d6 rounds thereafter. Mesmerizing sway is a mind-affecting effect.


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> It has this...
> 
> Mesmerizing Sway (Su): An elder serpent can paralyze other creatures as a standard action by swaying slowly and steadily while staring at them. Every creature within 30 feet of the serpent that can see its swaying must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + one-half elder serpent's racial HD + elder serpent's Charisma modifier) to avoid the effect. Failure means the creature is paralyzed for as long as the elder serpent concentrates and for 1d6 rounds thereafter. Mesmerizing sway is a mind-affecting effect.




Hmm...

I'm in favour of giving the "standard" Giant Cobra a mesmeric sway ability that only affects animals (or creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or less?), since that's what the original gets.

Something like...

*Mesmerize Animals (Su?):* An giant cobra can paralyze animals as a  standard action by swaying slowly and steadily while staring at them.  Every animal within 30 feet of the snake that can see its swaying  must make a successful Will save (DC X) to avoid the effect.  Failure means the creature is paralyzed for as long as the giant cobra continues to sway (requiring a standard action every round) and for 1d6 rounds thereafter. Mesmerizing sway is a  mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2012)

It would need to be (Ex), unless we're making it a magical beast.


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> It would need to be (Ex), unless we're making it a magical beast.




That's why the question mark was there.

I think I'll start a Working Draft, using a Large Viper Snake as the foundation...


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

*Giant Cobra Working Draft*

*Snake, Giant Cobra
*Large Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 3d10 (16 hp)
*Initiative:* +7
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft, swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+7
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d8 plus poison)
*Full Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d8 plus poison)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Mesmerize animal, poison
*Special Qualities:* Scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 10, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 12
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +8, Listen +5, Spot +6, Swim +8
*Feats:* Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Any warm land
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or quiver (3-6)
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4-5 HD (Large), 6-9 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_An enormous cobra, as long and heavy as a large python._

A giant cobra is a larger, slightly magical version of an ordinary cobra  that is able to mesmerize animals by performing a swaying, hypnotic  "dance". A giant cobra only hunts during the day, it will normally try  to flee if encountered at night. They prefer warm-blooded prey up to the  size of a gnome or roe deer, and have no compunctions against eating  humanoids.

A giant cobra is intelligent enough to be trained by someone willing to  brave its deadly venom. Snake-charmers, serpent cults and assassins  occasionally keep these snakes. Giant cobras are most commonly trained  as guards, sacred animals, or to milk them of their venom. Even "tame"  giant cobras always remain dangerous and should be handled carefully.

Giant cobras lair in burrows they steal from other animals. They mate  once a year, then the female builds a nest and guards her clutch off  eggs until they hatch. A single female usually lays between a dozen and a  score of eggs. Giant cobra eggs are prized as delicacies by some wild  elves and jungle giants, and are also sought after by people wanting to  hatch the young snakes and raise them.

Giant cobras are usually between 12 and 30 feet long, but they can grow    considerably bigger than that. A typical specimen is 24 feet from nose    to tail and weighs 500 pounds.

*COMBAT*

Giant cobras try to use their poison bite as often as they can. They  often retreat into undergrowth or a burrow to give their poison time to  work, then return to eat any victims who fall to their venom.

A giant cobra can swallow a creature up to two size categories smaller  than itself, but this is a slow process requiring at least a minute of  time and a non-resisting meal, not an action it can perform in combat.

*Mesmerize Animals (Su):* A giant cobra can paralyze animals as a   standard action by swaying slowly and steadily while staring at them.   Every animal within 30 feet of the snake that can see its swaying  must  make a successful Will save (DC 12) to avoid the effect.  Failure means  the creature is paralyzed for as long as the giant cobra continues to  sway (requiring a standard action every round) and for 1d6 rounds  thereafter. Mesmerizing sway is a  mind-affecting effect. The save DC is  Charisma-based.     

*Poison (Ex):* A giant cobra has a poisonous bite that deals initial and secondary  damage of 1d8 Con unless the victim succeeds at a DC 15 Fortitude save. The save DCs is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2012)

I don't think real cobras can hypnotize animals, so I'd rather go with Su and make them magical beasts.  It's consistent with the other giant animals that way, too.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't think real cobras can hypnotize animals, so I'd rather go with Su and make them magical beasts.  It's consistent with the other giant animals that way, too.




I'm no expert on the subject, but it does sound a bit farfetched.


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'm no expert on the subject, but it does sound a bit farfetched.




I'm fine changing them to Magical Beast. Shall I update them accordingly?

Hmm, would they still be eligible for the Elder Serpent template?


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'm fine changing them to Magical Beast. Shall I update them accordingly?
> 
> Hmm, would they still be eligible for the Elder Serpent template?






			
				Elder Serpent Template said:
			
		

> “Elder serpent” is an acquired template that can be added to any snakelike animal or *magical beast*...




No worries.


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## Cleon (Mar 7, 2012)

Shade said:


> No worries.




Shall I convert it to a Magical Beast then?


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Shall I convert it to a Magical Beast then?




Yep.


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## Cleon (Mar 8, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yep.




Updating *Working Draft*.

We need to increase the Charisma since it's got a Charisma-based attack. 

I'm thinking enough to give it a +1 Cha bonus, like a Krenshar.

So, Charisma 12?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So, Charisma 12?




Works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> Works for me.




 Updating *Working Draft*.

Now, what about the venom? The original monster was supposed to have a particularly potent poison.

1d10/1d10 Con and a +2 racial bonus to the DC?

That's only DC 13, so I'm tempted to make the bonus +4.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2012)

That Con damage seems too high for a 3HD critter.  Actually, maybe we could bump the HD to at least 5.  Rather than add a racial bonus to the poison, how about we reduce the Dex a little in favor of a higher Con?


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## Cleon (Mar 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> That Con damage seems too high for a 3HD critter.  Actually, maybe we could bump the HD to at least 5.  Rather than add a racial bonus to the poison, how about we reduce the Dex a little in favor of a higher Con?




I'd be willing to reduce it to 1d8 Con, like a 3E Phase Spider, but insist on it being more than a standard 3E Viper Snake's 1d6 Con.

Hmm, come to think of it an AD&D Phase spider has a "save at -2 or die" just like the Giant Cobra, so giving them both the same Con poison in 3E would make sense.

I'm reluctant to increase the HD.

The SRD Phase Spider's poison is DC 17, so giving the Giga-Cobra DC 15 seems appropriate. If the racial bonus bothers you, I'd much rather add Ability Focus (poison) - a feat the 3E Phase Spider has, incidentally - than increasing the Con to 16-17.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2012)

Damage like a phase spider seems reasonable.

I'm OK with a slight racial bonus or Ability Focus.


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## Cleon (Mar 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> Damage like a phase spider seems reasonable.
> 
> I'm OK with a slight racial bonus or Ability Focus.




Which do you prefer?


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Which do you prefer?




The former.


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## Cleon (Mar 15, 2012)

Shade said:


> The former.




That would seem to put us back at:

*Poison (Ex):* A giant cobra has a poisonous bite that deals initial and secondary  damage of 1d8 Con unless the victim succeeds at a DC 15 Fortitude save. The save DCs is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.

Do you think that racial bonus is too high? I'd be willing to give it Con 13 and a +3 racial bonus if you prefer.


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2012)

I don't mind the +4 bonus.  freyar?


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2012)

Shade said:


> I don't mind the +4 bonus.  freyar?




Quite around these parts, isn't it.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2012)

This is fine.  The Dex still seems quite high to me, but I guess that is the precedent.


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## Cleon (Mar 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> This is fine.  The Dex still seems quite high to me, but I guess that is the precedent.




It's the standard Dex of a SRD Viper Snake that size, so I see no problem with it.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2012)

Cleon said:


> It's the standard Dex of a SRD Viper Snake that size, so I see no problem with it.




That was my reasoning for supporting it.


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## Cleon (Mar 20, 2012)

Shade said:


> That was my reasoning for supporting it.




Sometimes I suspect you of being a slave to convention.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Sometimes I suspect you of being a slave to convention.




Slave is such an ugly word.  How about "zealot".


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## Cleon (Mar 21, 2012)

Shade said:


> Slave is such an ugly word.  How about "zealot".




I was thinking more along the lines of "stooge".


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## freyar (Mar 23, 2012)

How about "sophisticate"? 

These are mostly done.  I think we can remove the ? on CR; they are mostly similar to the CR2 Large viper, but the poison and bite are better (plus it has mesmerize animal).  I think that's worth the point of CR.

My go-to collective animal nouns list says that a group of cobras is a "quiver."  Want to use that for the group?


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## Cleon (Mar 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about "sophisticate"?
> 
> These are mostly done.  I think we can remove the ? on CR; they are mostly similar to the CR2 Large viper, but the poison and bite are better (plus it has mesmerize animal).  I think that's worth the point of CR.
> 
> My go-to collective animal nouns list says that a group of cobras is a "quiver."  Want to use that for the group?




I was thinking "nest" since I've often heard folk say "a nest of cobras", but never "quiver".

How much accreditation does a "quiver of cobras" have, anyway? I suspect a good many of these collective nouns include names of recent invention. I doubt there's a traditional collective noun for cobras in English, since they're not native to the UK.

So, I'd feel happier using one of the collective nouns for snakes - a bed, den, knot, nest, or pit.

Still, I suppose there's no harm done if we use quiver. Are you strongly in favor of it?


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2012)

Wikipedia also says "quiver" (and so does another collective animal name site, if you google search).  Pit, nest, or bed are more generic for snakes.  So I'd rather be less generic and use quiver.  We're just not used to talking about lots of cobras.


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> Wikipedia also says "quiver" (and so does another collective animal name site, if you google search).  Pit, nest, or bed are more generic for snakes.  So I'd rather be less generic and use quiver.  We're just not used to talking about lots of cobras.




Well I have my doubts as to the authenticity of "a quiver of cobras", but if you like it I don't mind using that in the organisation.

 Updating *Working Draft*.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2012)

"Quiver" sounds fun.  I seem to remember seeing a fantasy movie at one time where they stiffened snakes into arrows.


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## Cleon (Apr 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> "Quiver" sounds fun.  I seem to remember seeing a fantasy movie at one time where they stiffened snakes into arrows.




But Thulsa Doom only stiffened one snake.

A single arrow does not a quiver full, you need a sheaf for that.


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> But Thulsa Doom only stiffened one snake.
> 
> A single arrow does not a quiver full, you need a sheaf for that.




If only he'd had time to find more snakes.  

Let's go with "quiver" just for the novelty of it.


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## Cleon (Apr 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> If only he'd had time to find more snakes.
> 
> Let's go with "quiver" just for the novelty of it.




Well the *Working Draft* has been a-quiver for over a week, so the novelty's starting to wear off...


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## Cleon (Apr 3, 2012)

Hmm, that's odd.

I could have sworn I updated the Working Draft's poison to the potency and DC we'd agreed on, but it still has the old text.

It ought to be:



Cleon said:


> *Poison (Ex):* A giant cobra has a poisonous bite that deals initial and secondary  damage of 1d8 Con unless the victim succeeds at a DC 15 Fortitude save. The save DCs is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Well the *Working Draft* has been a-quiver for over a week, so the novelty's starting to wear off...




Well shiver me quivers!

So, we just need flavor text and weight?


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> Well shiver me quivers!
> 
> So, we just need flavor text and weight?




Yup.

Arguably we don't need the weight, since the SRD Snakes don't have it.

Anyhow, a typical King Cobra is about 3 to 4 metres long and weighs ~6 kilos (or 10-13 feet and ~13 pounds). The largest King Cobras grow up to 18 feet, but rarely exceed 45 pounds in weight.  *Here's a King Cobra* the text says is 12 foot 3 inches long and weighs 16 kilograms. However, I suspect it might be 16 *pounds*, since (a) the length is in UK/US measurements and (b).

So, if we assume 12 feet and 15 pounds for biggish King Cobra, then an 18 foot Giant Cobra would weigh 50 pounds if it has the same proportions.

A 12'3", 16 kg cobra would weigh 111 lbs if scaled up to 18 feet.

Hmm, both of those weights seem mighty low for a Large animal.

Still, king cobras are slim snakes. If it had a thick body like a diamondback rattlesnake it would weigh somewhere around 400 pounds when upscaled to 18 feet long.

Alternatively, we could increase the average length to 24 feet for an average Giant Cobra. That's a better match to the lengths of a standard snake/worm shaped creature (e.g. Purple Worm is 80 ft. & Gargantuan => 20 ft. & Large).

I think I prefer the "make it longer" solution. How about:

Giant cobras are usually between 12 and 30 feet long, but they can grow  considerable bigger than that. A typical specimen is 24 feet from nose  to tail and weighs 500 pounds.


----------



## freyar (Apr 7, 2012)

That works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> That works for me.




How's this then:

_An enormous cobra, as long and heavy as a large python._

A giant cobra is a larger, slightly magical version of an ordinary cobra that is able to mesmerize animals by performing a swaying, hypnotic "dance". A giant cobra only hunts during the day, it will normally try to flee if encountered at night. They prefer warm-blooded prey up to the size of a gnome or roe deer, and have no compunctions against eating humanoids.

A giant cobra is intelligent enough to be trained by someone willing to brave its deadly venom. Snake-charmers, serpent cults and assassins occasionally keep these snakes. Giant cobras are most commonly trained as guards, sacred animals, or to milk them of their venom. Even "tame" giant cobras always remain dangerous and should be handled carefully.

Giant cobras lair in burrows they steal from other animals. They mate once a year, then the female builds a nest and guards her clutch off eggs until they hatch. A single female usually lays between a dozen and a score of eggs. Giant cobra eggs are prized as delicacies by some wild elves and jungle giants, and are also sought after by people wanting to hatch the young snakes and raise them.

Giant cobras are usually between 12 and 30 feet long, but they can grow   considerably bigger than that. A typical specimen is 24 feet from nose   to tail and weighs 500 pounds.

COMBAT

Giant cobras try to use their poison bite as often as they can. They often retreat into undergrowth or a burrow to give their poison time to work, then return to eat any victims who fall to their venom.

A giant cobra can swallow a creature up to two size categories smaller than itself, but this is a slow process requiring at least a minute of time and a non-resisting meal, not an action it can perform in combat.


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2012)

Make it "considerably bigger" instead of "considerable bigger," and that'll do it.


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2012)

Looks good.  Once the Working Draft is finalized, I'll transfer to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Make it "considerably bigger" instead of "considerable bigger," and that'll do it.




Dang it, how did I miss that.

Oh well, it's easily fixed.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 11, 2012)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Once the Working Draft is finalized, I'll transfer to Homebrews.




Well the *Working Draft* is now ready for you.


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2012)

Transferred to Homebrews.

Should we mention that they are good candidates for the Elder Serpent template?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> Transferred to Homebrews.
> 
> Should we mention that they are good candidates for the Elder Serpent template?




It wouldn't hurt.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2012)

Cleon said:


> It wouldn't hurt.




Mentioned.

Did we have anything queued up, or shall I go a-hunting?


----------



## freyar (Apr 19, 2012)

Hunt away.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 20, 2012)

Shade said:


> Mentioned.
> 
> Did we have anything queued up, or shall I go a-hunting?




I don't think there's anything waiting.

We were talking about the Jaguar on the Lycanthrope thread.

Any interest in doing the missing Great Cats?


----------



## Shade (Apr 20, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I don't think there's anything waiting.
> 
> We were talking about the Jaguar on the Lycanthrope thread.
> 
> Any interest in doing the missing Great Cats?




Only if they are different enough to not be able to use comparable stats.  Is a leopard statistically different from a jaguar?

EDIT:  Now that I've actually checked the latest update to the lycanthrope thread, I am convinced to convert the jaguar.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 21, 2012)

Shade said:


> Only if they are different enough to not be able to use comparable stats.  Is a leopard statistically different from a jaguar?
> 
> EDIT:  Now that I've actually checked the latest update to the lycanthrope thread, I am convinced to convert the jaguar.




Fine by me. The _Monstrous Manual_ 2E AD&D Great Cats are the Cheetah, Jaguar, Leopard, Common Lion, Mountain Lion, Spotted Lion, Giant Lynx, Wild Tiger* and Smilodon.

*Presumably to distinguish it from the Tame Tiger.

We've got official 3E stats for many of them:

The Cheetah, Leopard, Lion, Tiger are in the SRD.

The Smilodon is in *Frostburn*.

According to Echohawk's list there's a Lynx in WotC's _*Races of Faerûn*_ but it's just a regular Lynx (a Small-sized Animal), not the very-intelligent Medium-sized creature that is a Giant Lynx.

That leaves the Jaguar, Mountain Lion, Spotted Lion and Giant Lynx.

Might as well start with the Jaguar.


----------



## Shade (Apr 23, 2012)

Sounds good.  Wanna finish up the jaguar here, or in the lycanthrope thread where you started it?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Wanna finish up the jaguar here, or in the lycanthrope thread where you started it?




If we're doing all the missing Great Cats I think it'd be easier keeping them all in the same thread, so let's do it here.


----------



## Shade (Apr 24, 2012)

Sounds like a plan.  Care to port over what you've got so far?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 25, 2012)

Shade said:


> Sounds like a plan.  Care to port over what you've got so far?




You mean...



Cleon said:


> In real-life, Jaguars are usually larger and sturdier than leopards. The  3E SRD Leopard says to use its stats for Jaguars, but in AD&D a  Jaguar is tougher than a leopard - 4+1 HD & damage 1-3/1-3/1-8 &  2-5/2-5 versus 3+2 HD & damage 1-3/1-3/1-6 & 1-4/1-4.
> 
> So, I'm thinking we should average a Lion and a Leopard's physical stats:
> 
> ...




Should we put up the original AD&D stats?

As written, it's just a matter of taking the SRD Leopard and adding +1 HD, +3 Str and -1 Dex, then figuring out the extra skill rank and what it's Advancement is - I'd go for 5-6 HD (Medium).

I'd like a _little_ more than that to distinguish it from a Leopard. For example, Jaguars are good swimmers, so I'd go for a racial bonus to Swim.

Maybe cut something down, like 5 ft. off the Climb speed, so it's not universally better than a Leopard.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2012)

I'd be fine with that advancement and the racial bonus to swim.

Is there real-world justification for cutting its climb speed?  I'm OK with it being universally better than the leopard if it actually is so in real life.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 28, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'd be fine with that advancement and the racial bonus to swim.
> 
> Is there real-world justification for cutting its climb speed?  I'm OK with it being universally better than the leopard if it actually is so in real life.




From what I've read, Jaguars are good climbers but Leopards are better.

 Jaguars do hunt in trees, and sometimes drag their kills into a tree for  safety, so we could easily give them the same climbing ability as  Leopards if you wanted. I don't believe they're "habitual" climbers like Leopards are, who they spend a lot of time in trees.

A bit of googling found a few comparison threads:
*Jaguar and Panther Differences*
*Tree Climbing*
The jaguar will occasionally flee to a tree to avoid confrontation or to seek solitude. But leopards are well known for their affinity for trees. They have the strongest chest and shoulder muscles of any big cat, which allows them to climb any tree with ease. The leopard's climbing ability is so pronounced that a leopard will stalk its prey, kill it and then drag it up into a tree to eat it at its leisure.

*Interspecies Conflict / Big Cats*
*Climbing Ability-* This is an interesting one. Lions are often thought to  be far inferior to the others in climbing ability but it's really not  true. They're probably not as good, due to not having to do it, but  every cat can climb. You've got to put leopards as number one as they  are incredibly comfortable in trees and spend a good amount of time  there.

1. Leopard
2. Jaguar
3. Tiger
4. Lion.​So, I guess you pays your money and makes your choice.


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## Shade (May 1, 2012)

If anything, I'd say that would justify a point or two of different in Climb skill bonus.  But since the climb speed grants a +8, and I don't want to deny the jaguar a climb speed, let's keep 'em even.   If I were to do 'em all at once, I'd have given the jaguar an even higher Climb modifier (or Skill Focus [climb] as a bonus feat).


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## Cleon (May 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> If anything, I'd say that would justify a point or two of different in Climb skill bonus.  But since the climb speed grants a +8, and I don't want to deny the jaguar a climb speed, let's keep 'em even.   If I were to do 'em all at once, I'd have given the jaguar an even higher Climb modifier (or Skill Focus [climb] as a bonus feat).




Don't you mean give the *Leopard* a Climb boost it we were redoing them all?

So, you'd like to leave the Jaguar's Climb speed the same as the SRD Leopard.

What about the racial bonus to Swim? I'm thinking at least +4, like the SRD Brown Bear and Black Bear. Arguably, Jaguars spend more time hunting in the water than bears, so I'm wondering whether we should make it +5 or +6.


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## Shade (May 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Don't you mean give the *Leopard* a Climb boost it we were redoing them all?




Yes.  



Cleon said:


> So, you'd like to leave the Jaguar's Climb speed the same as the SRD Leopard.




Indeed.



Cleon said:


> What about the racial bonus to Swim? I'm thinking at least +4, like the SRD Brown Bear and Black Bear. Arguably, Jaguars spend more time hunting in the water than bears, so I'm wondering whether we should make it +5 or +6.




I'm good with +6.


----------



## Cleon (May 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yes.
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> I'm good with +6.




Righty-oh. I'll start a Working Draft, then.


----------



## Cleon (May 3, 2012)

*Jaguar Working Draft*

*Jaguar*
Medium Animal
*Hit Dice:* 4d8+8 (26 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (+4 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+7
*Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d8+4)
*Full Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d8+4) and 2 claws +5 melee (1d3+2)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d3+2
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Balance +10, Climb +12, Hide +8*, Jump +11, Listen +6, Move Silently +8, Spot +6, Swim +10
*Feats:* Alertness, Multiattack (B), Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Warm forests
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Advancement:* 5-6 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* —

These jungle cats resemble leopards, but are somewhat larger and more  heavily built. A jaguar's fur has fewer and larger spots than a leopard.  They prefer to hunt at dawn or dusk. A jaguar has very powerful jaws  for tackling large or tough animals such as tapir, deer, turtles, or  constrictor snakes, but will catch prey as tiny as mice if nothing  better is available.

Jaguars are about 5 feet long and weigh about 180 pounds.

*Combat*

Jaguars prefer to pounce upon their prey from hiding.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a jaguar must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a jaguar charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

*Rake (Ex):* Attack bonus +7 melee, damage 1d3+2.

*Skills*
Jaguars have a +6 racial bonus on Balance, Jump and Swim checks. Jaguars also have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Jaguars have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.


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## Cleon (May 3, 2012)

Okay then, how about reducing the Jaguar's racial boni to Balance and Jump to +6 or +4, thereby making them _slightly_ less agile than a leopard?

Also, Jaguars have very powerful bites for their size, and the AD&D version has a 1d8 bite and 1d3 claws versus a leopard's 1d6 bite and 1d3 claws. How about doing the same for this conversion?


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## Shade (May 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Okay then, how about reducing the Jaguar's racial boni to Balance and Jump to +6 or +4, thereby making them _slightly_ less agile than a leopard?




I'm fine with lowering Balance to +6 (it's still better than a lion or tiger), and am slightly less comfortable making them poorer jumpers.



Cleon said:


> Also, Jaguars have very powerful bites for their size, and the AD&D version has a 1d8 bite and 1d3 claws versus a leopard's 1d6 bite and 1d3 claws. How about doing the same for this conversion?




That puts them on par with a lion.  Is that OK? It's Str is still 2 less than a lion, so it will average 1 less point of damage.  Is that enough?


----------



## freyar (May 4, 2012)

That's probably ok.


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## Cleon (May 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with lowering Balance to +6 (it's still better than a lion or tiger), and am slightly less comfortable making them poorer jumpers.




If we give them +6 in both its overall Jump modifier will only be 1 lower than the SRD Leopard, since it has a higher Strength.



Shade said:


> That puts them on par with a lion.  Is that OK? It's Str is still 2 less than a lion, so it will average 1 less point of damage.  Is that enough?




Well, what Challenge Rating are we aiming for them? Do we want to keep them CR 2 like a Leopard or make them CR 3 like a Lion? If the latter, it'll be a low-end CR3 unless we give them a little 'kick' upwards. Maybe the Multiattack feat?


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## Shade (May 8, 2012)

Cleon said:


> If we give them +6 in both its overall Jump modifier will only be 1 lower than the SRD Leopard, since it has a higher Strength.




Sounds good.



Cleon said:


> Well, what Challenge Rating are we aiming for them? Do we want to keep them CR 2 like a Leopard or make them CR 3 like a Lion? If the latter, it'll be a low-end CR3 unless we give them a little 'kick' upwards. Maybe the Multiattack feat?




Let's give 'em the kick.


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## freyar (May 8, 2012)

Multiattack* sounds good.*


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## Cleon (May 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Let's give 'em the kick.






freyar said:


> Multiattack* sounds good.*



*

Updating Working Draft.

I'll put its extra Skill Point in Jump, so it has the same Jump skill as the SRD Leopard.

EDIT: Forgot to adjust the bite damage, it's fixed now.*


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## Shade (May 10, 2012)

So we just need a sentence or two of simple flavor and some tactics and we're done?


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## Cleon (May 11, 2012)

Shade said:


> So we just need a sentence or two of simple flavor and some tactics and we're done?




Arguably we don't even need the Tactics, since the SRD cats don't have it.

Anyhow, how's this for the background.

These jungle cats resemble leopards, but are somewhat larger and more heavily built. A jaguar's fur has fewer and larger spots than a leopard. They prefer to hunt at dawn or dusk. A jaguar has very powerful jaws for tackling large or tough animals such as tapir, deer, turtles, or constrictor snakes, but will catch prey as tiny as mice if nothing better is available.

Jaguars are about 5 feet long and weigh about 180 pounds.


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## freyar (May 15, 2012)

Tactics: Jaguars prefer to pounce upon their prey from hiding.

Short but sweet?


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## Shade (May 15, 2012)

Works for me.


----------



## Cleon (May 15, 2012)

Shade said:


> Works for me.




 Updating *Working Draft*.

Done?


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## freyar (May 15, 2012)

Looks like it.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> Looks like it.




So, any interest in doing the Mountain Lion?

Its AD&D stats are almost identical to a Leopard, and a Cougar is pretty much the same weight as a Leopard (~60-200 pounds), averaging about 120 pounds.

Pumas _might_ be better at leaping long distances than leopards, having long, flexible bodies and powerful hind legs. However, I had trouble finding reliable figures for their leaping ability. Some of them quote distances of 15-18 feet vertically and 30-60 feet horizontally. The latter seems way too much, since from what I've read, Snow Leopards are among the best long-jumpers among the Great Cats and they can jump distances of 40-50 feet.

A 30 ft. horizontal or 15 ft. vertical jump is achievable on a high roll with the SRD Leopard's +11 Jump, but if we want an _average_ of 30 feet it'll need a higher racial bonus of +12 or so. (Maybe +20 for a Snow Leopard?)


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## Shade (May 16, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So, any interest in doing the Mountain Lion?
> 
> Its AD&D stats are almost identical to a Leopard, and a Cougar is pretty much the same weight as a Leopard (~60-200 pounds), averaging about 120 pounds.
> 
> ...




Hmm...that's so barely different I'm not sure it justifieds a conversion.   Still...if you're game, I'm game.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2012)

Shade said:


> Hmm...that's so barely different I'm not sure it justifieds a conversion.   Still...if you're game, I'm game.




Yes, I'm not sure whether we should bother with it either.

Shall we just move on the the Spotted Lion (aka Cave Lion)?


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## Shade (May 17, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I'm not sure whether we should bother with it either.
> 
> Shall we just move on the the Spotted Lion (aka Cave Lion)?




Let's do so.


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## GrayLinnorm (May 17, 2012)

The spotted lion is the same as the dire lion (gee, I wonder why they changed it?).


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## Cleon (May 18, 2012)

GrayLinnorm said:


> The spotted lion is the same as the dire lion (gee, I wonder why they changed it?).




As far as I know, the Dire Lion isn't officially identified as being the Spotted Lion or Cave Lion, so we're free to stat it up separately.

If we do, it'll have pretty similar stats to a Dire Lion, though.

Here's the _Monstrous Manual_ version:*Spotted Lion*
Climate/Terrain: Warm plains and desert
Frequency: Rare
Organization: Pride
Activity Cycle: Day
Diet: Carnivorous
Intelligence: Semi (2-4)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing: 2-8 (2d4)
Armor Class: 5/6
Movement: 12
Hit Dice: 6+2
THAC0: 15
No. of Attacks: 3
Damage/Attack: 1-4/1-4/1-12
Special Attacks: Rear claws 2-8 (2d4) each
Special Defenses: Surprised only on a 1
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: L (4½’-6½’ long)
Morale: Average (8-10)
XP Value: 975

Spotted lions are large, fierce, dappled versions of the lion. They are generally found in the plains of the Pleistocene epoch, and rarely occur elsewhere.​Compared to the other AD&D 2E Great Cats, it's intermediary between the Wild Tiger and Smilodon.

Wild Tiger: HD 5+2, AC 6, 1d4+1 claws & 1d10 bite, 2d4 rear claws
Cave Lion: HD 6+2, AC 5/6, 1d4 claws & 1d12 bite, 2d4 rear claws 
Smilodon: HD 7+2, AC 6, 1d4+1 claws & 2d6 bite, 2d4 rear claws 

Note its claws only do 1d4 (like a regular Lion), but its bite does more than an AD&D Wild Tiger or Lion's 1d10.

I guess the first question is do we make this a regular Animal or Dire Animal?

I'm leaning towards ordinary Animal, to distinguish it from the Dire Lion.

Give it a 1d10 or 2d6 bite?

7 HD, to distinguish it from 3E's Tiger (6 HD), Dire Lion (8 HD) and  Smilodon (9 HD)?

Hold on, I just remembered we've already got a 3.0 version of the *Spotted Lion* in the Creature Catalog.

We could just update that...

Hmm, I don't like the 18 Dexterity. I'd go for 15-17.

They weren't as heavily built as a Smilodon, so maybe we shouldn't give them that high a Con.

Str 23, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6 ? d4+6 claws, 2d6+3 bite?

 Do we keep the 6 HD like in the CC?


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## freyar (May 21, 2012)

We should update the 3.0 version, but I generally like your suggested changes.  I think I'd go for the full Str bonus on the bite, though.  And let's bump to 7HD.


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## Shade (May 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> We should update the 3.0 version, but I generally like your suggested changes.  I think I'd go for the full Str bonus on the bite, though.  And let's bump to 7HD.




Agreed on all counts.


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## Cleon (May 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> We should update the 3.0 version, but I generally like your suggested changes.  I think I'd go for the full Str bonus on the bite, though.  And let's bump to 7HD.




Are you suggesting we give it a "Powerful Bite" type SA which gives the bite the full +Str, or do you want to make the bite its primary attack and the claws secondary, like the _*Frostburn*_ Smilodon?


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## Cleon (May 22, 2012)

Shade said:


> Agreed on all counts.




That's enough to start a Working Draft, then. I'll use the "Powerful Bite" option, for the time being.


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## Cleon (May 22, 2012)

*Spotted Lion Working Draft*

*Lion, Spotted*
Large Animal
*Hit Dice:* 7d8+14 (45 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 40 ft (8 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+15
*Attack:* Claw +10 melee (1d4+6)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +10 melee (1d4+6) and bite +8 melee (2d6+6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce, powerful bite, rake 1d4+3
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
*Skills:* Balance +7, Hide +3*, Jump +10, Listen +6, Move Silently +11, Spot +6
*Feats:* Alertness, Multiattack, Run
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or pride (3-8)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Advancement:* 8-12 HD (Large); 13-21 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A massively built lion, its fur is dappled with spots._

Also known as cave lions, spotted lions are a prehistoric race of lion.  They are bigger and more muscular than modern lions to cope with the  more powerful prey of prehistoric times, but are otherwise similar in  their habits to ordinary lions.

A spotted lion is 7 or 8 feet long, stands around 4 feet tall at the shoulder, and weighs 400 to 800 pounds.

*Combat*
  A spotted lion charges prey, pouncing upon them once in range. It then  claws and bites as it rakes with its rear claws. They often attack  larger opponents.

*Improved Grab (Ex):*  To use this ability, a spotted lion must hit with its bite attack. It can  then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an  attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a  hold and can rake.

*Powerful Bite (Ex):* A spotted lion applies its full strength bonus to its bite damage.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a spotted lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

*Rake (Ex):* Attack bonus +10 melee, damage 1d4+3.

*Skills*: Spotted lions have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. 

*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +12.


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## freyar (May 23, 2012)

I don't see anything in the SRD entry on natural weapons about primary/secondary using Str/1/2-Str or bites using 1/2 Str.  We should just be able to choose.  But I guess the SQ is fine.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't see anything in the SRD entry on natural weapons about primary/secondary using Str/1/2-Str or bites using 1/2 Str.  We should just be able to choose.  But I guess the SQ is fine.




The SRD's "Reading the Monster Entries" general info on *Attacks and Full Attacks* seems pretty clear to me.

As to whether its bite or claws should be Primary, there are examples of both in the SRD (e.g. Leopards have Primary Bite/Secondary Claws and Lions Primary Claws/Secondary Bite), so we can pick whichever we like.

I'll leave the SQ in place, then.

So, are we keeping it a regular animal or making it a Dire Animal like a Smilodon?

If the current stats are OK by you, we just need to decide on its skill points.


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## freyar (May 26, 2012)

Darn it, why can't they list these things in the abilities sections under natural attacks, too?  Cross-referencing is so nice...

Yes, just leave that SQ.

I vote no on dire, to distinguish it from the dire lion.


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## Cleon (May 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> Darn it, why can't they list these things in the abilities sections under natural attacks, too?  Cross-referencing is so nice...
> 
> Yes, just leave that SQ.
> 
> I vote no on dire, to distinguish it from the dire lion.




I'm fine either way. The extra +3 Will save from Dire _is_ tempting, but I don't mind plain Animal either.

Might as well leave it as-is, and if Shade prefers Dire I'll upgrade it to Will +6.


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## freyar (May 30, 2012)

Let's just leave it an animal and see if Shade objects.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's just leave it an animal and see if Shade objects.




Fine by me.

A Dire version's probably just the SRD Dire Lion, anyway.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2012)

Right.  I think we can go with what you have in red, also.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> Right.  I think we can go with what you have in red, also.




Hold on, shouldn't its Advancement max out at 21 HD, not 18? Probably copied it from the SRD Tiger and forgot to change it.

I'll update the *Working Draft*.

The SRD Lion has skill points of Balance 0, Hide 0, Jump 0, Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Spot 2.

The Spotted Lion has two more skill points than the SRD Lion. I'd suggest an extra point in Listen and Spot based on the example of the SRD Dire Lion's skill points of Balance 0, Hide 0, Jump 0, Listen 4, Move Silently 3, Spot 4.

Balance 0, Hide 0, Jump 0, Listen 3, Move Silently 4, Spot 3.


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## freyar (Jun 7, 2012)

Well, the HD advancement cap can be anywhere we like, but I'd agree with you. 

The skill ranks look good.

Borrow liberally from "A dire lion attacks by running at prey, leaping, and clawing and biting as it rakes with its rear claws. It often jumps onto a creature larger than itself."?  

"Spotted lions chase their prey over a sprint, pouncing upon them once in range.  They usually grab onto larger creatures, raking as much as possible."


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, the HD advancement cap can be anywhere we like, but I'd agree with you.
> 
> The skill ranks look good.
> 
> ...




That "chase their prey over a sprint" doesn't read very well.

How about...

A spotted lion charges prey, pouncing upon them once in range. It then claws and bites as it rakes with its rear claws. They often attack larger opponents.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

Sure thing.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure thing.




Updating the *Working Draft*.

I'm wondering whether we should change the Environment, considering they lived in temperate and warm areas. Is "Temperate and warm plains" enough?

Apart from that, we just need some background text. . .

_A massively built lion, its fur is dappled with spots._

Also known as cave lions, spotted lions are a prehistoric race of lion. They are bigger and more muscular than modern lions to cope with the more powerful prey of prehistoric times, but are otherwise similar in their habits to ordinary lions.

A spotted lion is 7 or 8 feet long, stands around 4 feet tall at the shoulder, and weighs 400 to 800 pounds.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

I'd be fine with that environment.

Background text looks good.


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'd be fine with that environment.
> 
> Background text looks good.




 Updating the *Working Draft*.

Done?


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

Drop the red text, and yes.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> Drop the red text, and yes.




*Ta-da*!


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2012)

All set, then.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> All set, then.




So, are we doing the Giant Lynx? That seems to be the only other Monstrous Manual great cat that's unaccounted for as far as official 3E stats go.

We've got a 3.0 version of the *Giant Lynx* in the Creature Catalog already.

Although I'm not that keen on that conversion, since the original did a lot less damage than a leopard (1d2 for both fangs & paws) I don't think the Enworld conversion deserves the 1d6 bite and 1d3 claw attacks.

Also, it should be better at Searching for traps, according to the original flavour.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2012)

Post the original stats, and let's see how we want to update the 3.0 CC version.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Post the original stats, and let's see how we want to update the 3.0 CC version.




Very well, I have those handy.Here's the 1st edition Monster Manual version from 1977...​*[FONT=&quot]LYNX, Giant[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]
*FREQUENCY:*_ Rare
_*NO. APPEARING:*_ 1-4
_*ARMOR CLASS:*_ 6
_*MOVE:*_ 12”
_*HIT DICE:*_ 2 + 2
_*% IN LAIR:*_ 5%
_*TREASURE TYPE:*_ Nil
_*NO. OF ATTACKS:*_ 3
_*DAMAGE/ATTACK:*_ 1-2/1-2/1-4
_*SPECIAL ATTACKS:*_ Rear claws for 1-3/1-3
_*SPECIAL DEFENSES:*_ See below
_*MAGIC RESISTANCE:*_ Standard
_*INTELLIGENCE:*_ Very
_*ALIGNMENT:*_ Neutral
_*SIZE:*_ M
_*PSIONIC ABILITY:*_ Nil
_*Attack/Defense Modes:*_ Nil_

These forest cats prefer cold regions. They are aggressive and compete well with other predators because of their intelligence. If found in their lair there is a 25% chance that there will be 1-4 kittens there, 10% to 30% grown, with no effective attack. Giant lynx climb very well, swim reasonably well, and they can leap 15’. If the lynx strikes with both forepaws, it will then get two additional attacks, raking with the rear claws, each causing 1-3 hit points of damage.

Giant lynx speak their own language. They hove also learned to hide themselves in order to avoid detection (90% unlikely in normal circumstances) or surprise prey (surprise on 1-5). They are 75% accurate in detecting traps.[/FONT]And this is the 2nd edition Monstrous Manual equivalent, vintage 1993..​*[FONT=&quot]Cat, Great Giant Lynx[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Climate/Terrain:[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] Subarctic forest
*Frequency:* Rare
*Organization:* Solitary
*Activity Cycle:* Night
*Diet:* Carnivorous
*Intelligence:* Very (11-12)
*Treasure:* Nil
*Alignment:* Neutral
*No. Appearing:* 1-4
*Armor Class:* 6
*Movement:* 12
*Hit Dice:* 2+2
*THAC0:* 19
*No. of Attacks:* 3
*Damage/Attack:* 1-2/1-2/1-2
*Special Attacks:* Rear claws 1-3 each
*Special Defenses: *See below 
*Magic Resistance:* Nil
*Size:* M (4½’ long)
*Morale:* Average (8-10)
*XP Value:* 175

*Giant Lynx
*The giant lynx is distinguished by its tufted ears and cheeks, short bobbed tail, and dappled coloring. It has a compact muscular body, with heavy legs and unusually large paws.

The giant lynx is the most intelligent of the great cats and uses its wits in combat. When hiding, a giant lynx will avoid detection 90% of the time. The lynx can leap up to 15 feet and imposes a -6 on the surprise rolls of its prey. It has a 75% chance of detecting traps. If a giant lynx strikes with both forepaws, it attempts a rear claw rake, causing 1-3 points of damage per claw. The giant lynx almost never attacks men.
The giant lynx prefers cold coniferous and scrub forests. They can communicate in their own language with others of its kind, which greatly increases its chances of survival. The nocturnal lynx stalks or ambushes its prey, catching rodents, young deer, grouse, and other small game. The cubs remain with their mother for 6 months.
The giant lynx has all the advantages of the great cats plus the added bonus of a high intelligence which makes it even more adaptable.

[/FONT]***

They're pretty much the same.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2012)

Yeah, I see what you mean.  The 1e version does have a 1d4 bite.  How about we do 1d2 claws, 1c4 bite, 1d3 rake?  And give it a big Search bonus, +8 instead of +4 maybe.

Compared to the leopard, I'd probably also reduce Str and increase Dex.  Do you agree?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I see what you mean.  The 1e version does have a 1d4 bite.  How about we do 1d2 claws, 1d4 bite, 1d3 rake?  And give it a big Search bonus, +8 instead of +4 maybe.




That'd all be fine by me. Possibly give it a big(ger) Listen and Spot bonus as well.



freyar said:


> Compared to the leopard, I'd probably also reduce Str and increase Dex.  Do you agree?




How about applying a "half size" -4 Str and -2 Con to the SRD Leopard's Str 16, Con 15?

It's got the same AC as an AD&D Leopard, so I'd rather leave the Dex the same.

The mental stats ought to be pretty impressive - we've got Int 12 already, so how much Wis and Cha shall we go for?


----------



## freyar (Jun 28, 2012)

How about Str 12, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 29, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about Str 12, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10?




That Wisdom's *lower* than the 12 that the SRD big cats get. The flavour text says they're smart, observant creatures, so I'd prefer Wis 14-15.

Still, I think we've got enough to begin a Working Draft...


----------



## Cleon (Jun 29, 2012)

*Giant Lynx Working Draft*

*Lynx, Giant*
Medium Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 2d10+2 (13 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), Climb 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (+4 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+3
*Attack:* Claw +6 melee (1d2+1)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +6 melee (1d2+1) and bite +1 melee (1d4)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d3
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, snaresensing
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 12, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +12, Climb +12, Hide +12* [_+16 in undergrowth_], Jump +5, Listen +10, Move Silently +12, Search +9, Spot +9, Survival +6, Swim +8
*Feats:* Track, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Cold forest and plains
*Organization:* Solitary or family (2-4)
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Advancement:* 3-4 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A silvery-brown cat with small, dark brown spots. It has long legs with big paws, a short bobbed tail, and large ears that end in pointed tufts._

The giant lynx is a larger, slightly magical relative of a normal lynx. They are nocturnal and prefer to live in boreal forests and cold scrublands. Giant lynx hunt most of the smaller animals that live in the taiga forests, stalking everything from lemmings to the smaller deer. They are fast and stealthy enough to catch birds. A giant lynx is as intelligent as most humanoids, but has little or no interest in "civilization". It uses its intelligence for survival, adapting its behavior to fit its habitat rather than trying to change the habitat to suit them like civilized humanoids might. These great cats are renowned for being extraordinarily perceptive, and can easily spot snares and tracks.

A giant lynx is about 4 feet long and weighs around 80 pounds. They typically stand 2¼ feet tall at the shoulder, due to their long legs.

Giant lynx speak a dialect of Slyvan. They rarely know any other language.

*Combat*
The giant lynx almost never attacks humanoids, except in self defense. Like other felines, a giant lynx prefers to pounce on prey and opponents from stealth, then quickly make use of its rake attacks. Their native intelligence also allows them to orchestrate elaborate ambushes, while their snaresensing ability allows them to avoid traps very well themselves.

*Improved Grab (Ex):*  To use this  ability, a giant lynx must hit with its bite attack. It can  then  attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an  attack  of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a  hold  and can rake.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a giant lynx charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

*Rake (Ex):* Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 1d3.

*Snaresensing (Ex):* A giant lynx can sense simple pits,  deadfalls, and snares as well as mechanical traps  concealed in natural objects, such as an arrow trap hidden in a tree. Snaresensing also detects natural  hazards that exist in the lynx's wilderness environment, such as quicksand, a sinkhole, or unsafe walls of  natural rock. Snaresensing cannot detect magical  traps. It cannot sense mechanical traps that are part of a larger  artificial object, such as a secret  trapdoor in a building's floor, or a poison needle trap hidden in lock. 

The giant lynx must make at a Search check to locate a snare. A giant  lynx who merely passes within 5 feet of a snare is entitled to a Search  check to notice it as if they were actively looking for it. Snaresensing  can locate traps with a Search DC higher than 20.

*Skills:*  Giant lynx have a +6 racial bonus to Hide, Listen, Move  Silently  and   Search checks and a +4 racial bonus on Jump, Spot and Swim checks.   Giant lynx have a +8 racial  bonus to Balance  and Climb checks and   can use their Dexterity or  Strength for  Climb and Swim checks. A giant   lynx can always choose to  take 10 on a  Climb check, even if rushed  or  threatened.

*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +10.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2012)

Weapon Finesse * seems right.  

Some species of lynx are good swimmers, so a swim speed seems ok to me.  

I guess darkvision makes sense, since cats are usually at least semi-nocturnal.

The higher Wis is fine.*


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## Cleon (Jun 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Weapon Finesse * seems right.*



*

Multiattack for the regular feat?



freyar said:



			Some species of lynx are good swimmers, so a swim speed seems ok to me.
		
Click to expand...



Sure, but are they any better than, say, a Brown Bear or a Tiger, which are also good swimmers?

The AD&D stats don't give them a Swim speed, so I'd rather cut it out, although I'd entertain a racial bonus to Swim checks. 



freyar said:



			I guess darkvision makes sense, since cats are usually at least semi-nocturnal.
		
Click to expand...



The darkvision was just Magical Beast boilerplate, although I did think it was appropriate.



freyar said:



			The higher Wis is fine.
		
Click to expand...



Agreed.*


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2012)

I always forget: do we allow Multiattack when the "3 natural attacks" includes 2 of the same thing but not 3 distinct types of attack?

The bear and tiger make a good point. (They tend to with claws and teeth. )  Let's drop the swim speed, like you suggest, and maybe give a small bonus on checks.  Or let them use Dex instead of Str.

For the trap-sensing, I'd definitely give them a Search bonus, at least when looking for traps.  I'm a bit unsure about giving them the ability to find magical traps, but a barbarian-style Trap Sense might work.


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> I always forget: do we allow Multiattack when the "3 natural attacks" includes 2 of the same thing but not 3 distinct types of attack?




Yes you can. As in the SRD *Ghoul*.



freyar said:


> The bear and tiger make a good point. (They tend to with claws and teeth. )  Let's drop the swim speed, like you suggest, and maybe give a small bonus on checks.  Or let them use Dex instead of Str.




Why not both!

Something like this, maybe...

*Skills:* Giant lynxes have a +4 racial bonus to Hide, Move Silently, Search, Spot and Swim checks. Giant lynxes have a +8 racial bonus to Balance and Climb checks. A giant lynx can use its Dexterity or Strength for Climb and Swim checks. A giant lynx can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.     



freyar said:


> For the trap-sensing, I'd definitely give them a Search bonus, at least when looking for traps.  I'm a bit unsure about giving them the ability to find magical traps, but a barbarian-style Trap Sense might work.




I'd happily give them something like Trapfinding, but restrict it to extraordinary outdoor traps - basically the stuff that a _detect snares and pits_ spell can register.

How about:

*Snaresensing (Ex):* A giant lynx can sense simple pits, deadfalls, and snares as well as mechanical traps  constructed of natural materials. Snaresensing also detects certain natural hazards—quicksand (a snare), a sinkhole (a  pit), or unsafe walls of natural rock (a deadfall). However, it does not  reveal other potentially dangerous conditions. Snaresensing cannot detect magical traps, or mechanical traps that are part of a building or larger artificial object, For example, a giant lynx could not sense a secret trapdoor or a poison needle trap hidden in lock, but it could sense an arrow trap concealed in a tree. 

The giant lynx must make at a Search check to locate a snare. A giant lynx who merely passes within 5 feet of a snare is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if they were actively looking for it. Snaresensing can locate traps with a Search DC higher than 20.

We could give them Trap Sense as well, but I suspect that would be gilding the lily.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2012)

That skill solution works for me.

It seems to me that the mechanical statement of snaresensing is all in the second paragraph; anyone can detect the snares you describe up to Search DC 20 with a Search check. I like the idea, but why not cut the extra words?

I do agree that trap sense seems like too much on top of that.


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> That skill solution works for me.




Fine, I'll add it in then.



freyar said:


> It seems to me that the mechanical statement of snaresensing is all in the second paragraph; anyone can detect the snares you describe up to Search DC 20 with a Search check. I like the idea, but why not cut the extra words?




I want to have a fairly clear definition as to what counts as a "snare" as far as the ability is concerned. Much of the first draft's text was copied over from the _detect snares and pits_ spell description.

That said, I'd like to tidy it up a bit. Here's a revised version:

*Snaresensing (Ex):* A giant lynx can sense simple pits,  deadfalls, and snares as well as mechanical traps  concealed in natural  objects, such as an arrow trap hidden in a tree. Snaresensing also  detects natural  hazards that exist in the lynx's wilderness environment, such as  quicksand, a sinkhole, or unsafe walls of  natural rock. Snaresensing cannot detect magical  traps. It cannot sense mechanical traps that are part of a larger  artificial object, such as a secret  trapdoor in a building's floor, or a poison needle trap hidden in lock. 

 The giant lynx must make at a Search check to locate a snare. A giant  lynx who merely passes within 5 feet of a snare is entitled to a Search  check to notice it as if they were actively looking for it. Snaresensing  can locate traps with a Search DC higher than 20.



freyar said:


> I do agree that trap sense seems like too much on top of that.




Agreed, I won't be adding that.

Updating *Giant Lynx Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2012)

Well, it works well enough.

How about we give them Track and Weapon Finesse* for feats and add a few ranks in Survival for the heck of it?  It makes some sense.

Let's distribute the skill ranks as follows: Jump 4, Listen 4, Search 4, Survival 3.  That would give them Balance +12, Climb +12,Hide +8*, Jump +5, Listen +6, Move Silently +8, Search +5, Spot +6, Survival +5, Swim +8, I think.*


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, it works well enough.
> 
> How about we give them Track and Weapon Finesse* for feats and add a few ranks in Survival for the heck of it?  It makes some sense.
> 
> Let's distribute the skill ranks as follows: Jump 4, Listen 4, Search 4, Survival 3.  That would give them Balance +12, Climb +12, Hide +8*, Jump +5, Listen +6, Move Silently +8, Search +5, Spot +6, Survival +5, Swim +8, I think.*



*

Hmm, those Listen/Spot and Hide/Move Silently look too low to me. The original was far sneakier (-6 vs -3) and harder to surprise than a Leopard, but it's got the same numbers.

Give it a better racial bonus? The SRD Deinonychus gets a +8 in Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot and Survival, so we have some precedent.

How about...

Skill Ranks (15): Hide 2, Listen 2, Move Silently 2, Search 3, Spot 2, Survival 4
Skills: Balance +12, Climb +12, Hide +12*, Jump +5, Listen +10, Move Silently +12, Search +10, Spot +10, Survival +6, Swim +8

Giant lynxes have a +6 racial bonus to Hide, Listen, Move  Silently, Search,  and Spot checks and a +4 racial bonus on Jump and Swim checks. Giant lynxes have a +8 racial  bonus to Balance  and Climb checks and can use their Dexterity or  Strength for  Climb and Swim checks. A giant lynx can always choose to  take 10 on a  Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +12.*


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2012)

Let's cut the Jump bonus and reduce the Spot bonus to +4.  No need to overdo it.   But it looks good, and I don't object if you really want to keep those.


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## Cleon (Jul 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's cut the Jump bonus and reduce the Spot bonus to +4.  No need to overdo it.   But it looks good, and I don't object if you really want to keep those.




Well, Lynxs supposedly have extraordinarily keen eyesight, hence the expression "lynx-eyed". The original text says they normally jump 15 feet, which is a DC 15, hence theyr +5 Jump bonus.

I suppose I'd be OK reducing the Spot to +8 and moving a skill point across from Search to give them +9 in both. That would let it Spot/Search a DC 15 snare on a 6+, which matches the original's "75% chance of detecting traps".

I'd also be OK lowering the racial bonus to Hide in undergrowth:

That would make it:

*Skill Ranks (15):* Hide 2, Listen 2, Move Silently 2, Search 2, Spot 3, Survival 4
*Skills:* Balance +12, Climb +12, Hide +12* [_+16 in undergrowth_], Jump +5, Listen +10, Move Silently +12, Search +9, Spot +9, Survival +6, Swim +8

Giant lynxes have a +6 racial bonus to Hide, Listen, Move  Silently  and  Search checks and a +4 racial bonus on Jump, Spot and Swim checks.  Giant lynxes have a +8 racial  bonus to Balance  and Climb checks and  can use their Dexterity or  Strength for  Climb and Swim checks. A giant  lynx can always choose to  take 10 on a  Climb check, even if rushed or  threatened.

*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +10.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2012)

That would work for me.  So, are you happy with Weapon Finesse as a bonus and Track as the regular feat?


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> That would work for me.  So, are you happy with Weapon Finesse as a bonus and Track as the regular feat?




Sure!

Updating *Giant Lynx Working Draft*.

That just leaves some furry flavour text!


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2012)

A spotted brown cat with pointed ears.


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> A spotted brown cat with pointed ears.




Don't forget the tufts!

They also have long legs and short tails for a cat, if I recall rightly.


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2012)

A spotted brown cat with pointed and tufted ears, this creature has a short tail and large paws.

That's based a bit on the wikipedia page.  

Tactics: Like other felines, a giant lynx prefers to pounce from stealth, making use if its rake attacks quickly.  Their native intelligence also allows them to orchestrate elaborate ambushes, but their snaresensing skill allows them to avoid traps very well themselves.


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## Cleon (Jul 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> A spotted brown cat with pointed and tufted ears, this creature has a short tail and large paws.
> 
> That's based a bit on the wikipedia page.




I'd prefer "pale brown", since Lynxs tend to have light-coloured fur.

If you're going by Wikipedia I also like the "silvery brown" it uses to describe the fur of the *Canada Lynx*.

_A silvery-brown cat with small, dark brown spots. It has long legs with big paws, a short tail, and large ears that end in pointed tufted_.



freyar said:


> Tactics: Like other felines, a giant lynx prefers to pounce from stealth, making use if its rake attacks quickly.  Their native intelligence also allows them to orchestrate elaborate ambushes, but their snaresensing skill allows them to avoid traps very well themselves.




That looks fine, except for the "making use *if* its rake".

I'd add a bit about their relationship to humanoids.

How's this?:

The giant lynx almost never attacks humanoids, except in self defense. Like other felines, a giant lynx prefers to pounce on prey and opponents from  stealth, then quickly make use of its rake attacks.  Their native  intelligence also allows them to orchestrate elaborate ambushes, while their snaresensing ability allows them to avoid traps very well  themselves.


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2012)

Another typo: "pointed tufted" should be "pointed tufts" in the description.  But I like that and the tactics.  

I can't say I have many ideas about the background, but I do have one about languages.  The 1e version speaks its own language, while the 2e version doesn't say.  I suggest Sylvan and sometime Common.


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Another typo: "pointed tufted" should be "pointed tufts" in the description.  But I like that and the tactics.




Updating *Giant Lynx Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> I can't say I have many ideas about the background, but I do have one about languages.  The 1e version speaks its own language, while the 2e version doesn't say.  I suggest Sylvan and sometime Common.




Well _obviously_ they speak Elven Cat! 

I'd rather they not be able to speak Common. They only speak their own language in the original, and having them speak Common makes them a lot less mysterious.

How about "a dialect of Sylvan"?


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2012)

But elven cats just speak Elven.  Boring! 

Some "dialect of Sylvan" works for me.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> But elven cats just speak Elven.  Boring!
> 
> Some "dialect of Sylvan" works for me.




Not in AD&D they didn't, they had their own language. 

Seem's were agreed on Sylvan.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

I've come up with the following for the background, it includes a slight tweaking of the description (I added in a "bobbed" tail and a shoulder height):
_A silvery-brown cat with small, dark brown spots. It has long legs with big paws, a short bobbed tail, and large ears that end in pointed tufts._

The giant lynx is a larger, slightly magical relative of a normal lynx. They are nocturnal and prefer to live in boreal forests and cold scrublands. Giant lynx hunt most of the smaller animals that live in the taiga forests, stalking everything from lemmings to the smaller deer. They are fast and stealthy enough to catch birds. A giant lynx is as intelligent as most humanoids, but has little or no interest in "civilization". It uses its intelligence for survival, adapting its behavior to fit its habitat rather than trying to change the habitat to suit them like civilized humanoids might. These great cats are renowned for being extraordinarily perceptive, and can easily spot snares and tracks.

A giant lynx is about 4 feet long and weighs around 80 pounds. They typically stand 2¼ feet tall at the shoulder, due to their long legs.

Giant lynx speak a dialect of Slyvan. They rarely know any other language.​ I've updated the *Giant Lynx Working Draft* with the above, and also fixed the "lynxes" to "lynx" so it has consistent pluralisation.

The AD&D sources used "lynx" for a plural, so I decided to use that.

We're about done. Just the red questions to go.

The only change I'd like to make is altering Environment to "Cold forests", since.

(a) Although lynx may live on arctic tundra and temperate scrubland, they're mainly a forest animal.
(b) The Monstrous Manual entry has "Climate/Terrain: Subarctic forest".

It looks like we're done with the Lynx if the above meets your approval.

Any thoughts?


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

Oh, incidentally, the exists of a "Giant Lynx" begs the question of what stats does a regular Lynx have?

I came up with the following. Shall we add it to the "beasts batch" we're posting this weekend?:

*Lynx **[Homebrew]* 
Medium Animal
*Hit Dice:* 2d8+2 (11 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (+4 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/+1
*Attack:* Claw +5 melee (1d2)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +5 melee (1d2) and bite +0 melee (1d4)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d2
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 10, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Balance +12, Climb +12, Hide +8*, Jump +8, Listen +6, Move Silently +8, Spot +9, Swim +4
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Cold or temperate forests and plains
*Organization:* Solitary or family (2-4)
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Advancement:* 3 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A silvery-brown cat with small, dark brown spots. It has long legs with big paws, a short tail, and large ears that end in pointed tufts_.

Lynx are a medium-sized species of wild cat. They prefer to live in forests, but may also roam tundra or temperate scrublands. A family of lynx consists of a mother and her cubs.

A lynx is between 3 and 4 feet long and can weigh up to 80 pounds.

*Combat*
A lynx never hunts humanoids, but might attack one in self defense. It prefers to pounce on prey and opponents from stealth, then quickly make use of its rake attacks.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a lynx must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a lynx charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

*Rake (Ex):* Attack bonus +5 melee, damage 1d2.

*Skills:* Lynx have a +4 racial bonus on Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Swim checks. Lynx have a +8 racial bonus to Balance and Climb checks and can use their Dexterity or Strength for Climb and Jump checks. A lynx can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

*Wild Cat Wonder Working Draft*

Come to think of it, we don't have a conversion of the MM Wild Cat yet. I came up with the following stats for them.

Since I'm on a "feline roll" I'd like to add them to my half of the pending CC batch too:

*Cat, Wild*
Small Animal
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+1 (5 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor** Class:* 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-5
*Attack:* Claw +4 melee (1d3-1)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +4 melee (1d3-1) and bite -1 melee (1d4-1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d3-1
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 8, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +11*, Jump +7, Listen +5, Move Silently +7, Spot +5
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Any forests, hills, or plains
*Organization:* Solitary or family (2-5)
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Challenge Rating:* ½
*Advancement:* 2 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* —

This entry describes a large male wildcat (_Felis__ silvestris_), a bobcat, or another feline of similar size. Smaller wild cats such as the margay use the stats of the lesser wild cat (see below) or the Cat entry in the _Monster Manual_. Wild cats are adaptable animals that can be found in many terrains, but are commonest in forests. A wild cat family consists of a mother and her cubs.

A wild cat is 2 to 4 feet long and can weigh up to 60 pounds, although 20 pounds is a more typically weight.

*Combat*
A wild cat avoids humanoids, but may attack them savagely if it feels threatened. They prefer to pounce on prey and opponents from ambush, then quickly use rake attacks.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a wild cat must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a wild cat charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

*Rake (Ex):* Attack bonus +4 melee, damage 1d3-1.

*Skills:* Wild cats have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Wild cats have a +8 racial bonus to Balance and Climb checks and can use their Dexterity or Strength for Climb and Jump checks. A wild cat can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.

*Lesser Wild Cat*
Tiny Animal
*Hit Dice:* ½d8+1 (3 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor** Class:* 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-11
*Attack:* Claw +5 melee (1d2-3)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +5 melee (1d2-3) and bite +0 melee (1d3-3)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 4, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +15*, Jump +7, Listen +5, Move Silently +7, Spot +5
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Any forests, hills, or plains
*Organization:* Solitary or family (2-5)
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Challenge Rating:* 1/3
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

Lesser wild cats include the margay, smaller specimens of wildcat and jungle cat, and similarly-sized wild felines. It can also represent an exceptionally large and ferocious domestic cat (feral or otherwise).

A lesser wild cat is between 1½ and 2 feet long and weighs between 8 and 15 pounds.

*COMBAT*

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a lesser wild cat must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a lesser wild cat charges a foe, it can make a full attack.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2012)

We should probably figure out the final list of 10 critters for this weekend and split them up.

I think the lynx and wild cat look ok, but I'm a bit concerned about their sizes.  The largest species of lynx (the Eurasian one) is only 32-51 in long and 28 in tall with max weight of 66 lb (see wikipedia), which says Small to me.  Plus the giant lynx is only Medium, so I wouldn't want the regular lynx to be Medium also.  Similarly with the wild cat; 2-3 ft long and 10-20 lb is Tiny, maybe with advancement to Small.  The wild cats I've seen in zoos certainly weren't much larger than housecats if at all (fishing cats were slightly larger).  But, anyway, if they're down to Tiny, I'm not sure they rate an entry distinct from the SRD cat.

We should work through these before posting them.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> We should probably figure out the final list of 10 critters for this weekend and split them up.
> 
> I think the lynx and wild cat look ok, but I'm a bit concerned about their sizes.  The largest species of lynx (the Eurasian one) is only 32-51 in long and 28 in tall with max weight of 66 lb (see wikipedia), which says Small to me.  Plus the giant lynx is only Medium, so I wouldn't want the regular lynx to be Medium also.  Similarly with the wild cat; 2-3 ft long and 10-20 lb is Tiny, maybe with advancement to Small.  The wild cats I've seen in zoos certainly weren't much larger than housecats if at all (fishing cats were slightly larger).  But, anyway, if they're down to Tiny, I'm not sure they rate an entry distinct from the SRD cat.
> 
> We should work through these before posting them.




I'm not going to upload the Lynx to the CC, it already has official 3E stats, so we needn't worry about that.

My Lynx homebrew is supposed to be one of the larger Lynxes, so would be around the 50 pound minimum for a Medium creature. It's also worth noticing that the Great Cats in the SRD tend to have a bigger size category than their weight would indicate - a typical lion is around 300 pounds, for example, but their Large creature despite that size normally being 500-4000 pounds.

The Wild Cat stats I give above is meant to include the  smaller lynx  species, which is why it mentions Bobcats (that are a type  of Lynx - _Lynx rufus_, to be exact). I didn't want to mention the lynx _specifically_ in the text because Lynx already have officially stats.

A Wild Cat is well within the 8 pound lower limit of the Small size category, so it doesn't need a "size boost" like the SRD Lion.

Mainly, I want an intermediate feline between the Tiny SRD cat and the Medium SRD Jaguar, and converting the AD&D Wild Cat seems the best solution.

The MM Wild Cat is up to twice as large as a housecat (1' tall vs 1' -2' tall), has twice the HD (½ vs 1) and speed (Mv 9 vs Mv 18) and average just over two times the damage (1-2/1 & 1-2 vs 1-2/1-2/1-2 & 1-2/1-2; or 3.5 vs 7.5 average hps).

They're both "Tiny" in the Monstrous Manual, but the Wild Cat is so much more powerful it deserves to be Small.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

How about covering the "Medium sized" Lynx by giving the *Wild Cat* advancement to Medium, and modifying the text to make them a bit heftier?

Like this:

*Advancement:* 2 HD (Medium)

This entry describes an actual wildcat (_Felis silvestris_), a bobcat or another feline of similar size. It could also represent an  exceptionally large and ferocious domestic cat (feral or otherwise). Wild  cats are adaptable animals that can be found in many terrains, but are  commonest in forests. A wild cat family consists of a mother and her  cubs. The smallest wild cats have the same stats as a common housecat (the Cat in the _Monster Manual_).

A wild cat is 2 to 4 feet long and can weigh up to 60 pounds, although 20 pounds is a more typically weight.

*Combat*
A wild cat avoids humanoids, but may attack them savagely if it feels  threatened. They prefer to pounce on prey and opponents from ambush,  then quickly use rake attacks.

Better?

I think so!

Also, don't forget to look at *my previous post* on the Wild Cat & Lynx.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2012)

I think you mean "more typical weight."  

OK, then, you've persuaded me on the wild cat.  But can you post the original stats for a quick comparison before these go into the CC?  I'd at least like to give a wink toward the collaborative aspect of the thread.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think you mean "more typical weight."




You'd think correctly!

Updating the *Wild Cat*.



freyar said:


> OK, then, you've persuaded me on the wild cat.  But can you post the original stats for a quick comparison before these go into the CC?  I'd at least like to give a wink toward the collaborative aspect of the thread.




What, don't you have the _Monstrous Manual_ perpetually at hand? 

Here you go:
*Cat, Wild*
*Climate/Terrain:* Any non-arctic 
*Frequency:* Uncommon 
*Organization:* Solitary 
*Activity Cycle:* Any 
*Diet:* Carnivore 
*Intelligence:* Animal (1) 
*Treasure:* Nil 
*Alignment:* Neutral 
*No. Appearing:* 1 (2-5) 
*Armor Class:* 5 
*Movement:* 18 
*Hit Dice:* 1 
*THAC0:* 19 
*No. of Attacks:* 3 
*Damage/Attack:* 1-2/1-2/1-2 
*Special Attacks:* Rear claw rake, 1-2/1-2 
*Special Defenses:* See below 
*Magic Resistance:* Nil 
*Size:* T (1'-2' tall) 
*Morale:* Average (8-10) 
*XP Value:* 35 

* Wild Cat*
Wild cats are very similar to domestic cats, and some were pets that went feral. Generally, wild cats are tougher, stronger, and more capable hunters than domestic cats.

*Wild Cats* are domestic cats that have gone feral or already wild species like margays. These avoid humans but may accept food. Pelts are worth 10-20 sp.
​                     That's a pretty nasty package for a 1 HD creature.

The background text describes a  "domestic cat" sized feline like a Wildcat or a Margay, but the  stats say they're something significantly bigger - no way an 8 pound Margay does 7.5  damage on average.

That's covered by my conversion saying small wild cats just use normal cat stats. It's for something like a lynx, bobcat, or a large male _Felis silvestris_.

Hmm, I just noticed that the SRD Baboon has the same length listed (2 to 4 feet long) and they're Medium sized!

Oh, I've reordered the descriptive text so the "The smallest wild cats have the same stats as a common  housecat in the _Monster Manual_." is with the rest of the stuff about how big they are rather than tagged onto the end. I didn't make any substantial changes to it.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2012)

We could increase the minimum size to "2½ to 4 feet" or "3 to 4 feet" to make it clearer we're talking about something the size of a Bobcat or a large tom _Felis silvestris_? (The latter can reach 3 feet and 20 pounds, the former *average* that size).

If you want to do that, I'd prefer the  "2½ to 4 feet" option, since some wild cats have short, stocky body while others are longer & leaner.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2012)

Just noticed the *Wild Cat* still had the Giant Lynx's rake 1d2 in its attack line - I'd changed the Combat entry but not the stat block.

It's fixed now.

Oh, and I've mentioned the Margay in the background text bit about "housecat sized" Wild Cats just being SRD Cats, since that feline is only as large as a domestic cat.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2012)

Hmmm, I only played a bit as a kid (during the 2e era), and I drew the short straw when my group divvied up its books.  But maybe I'll see if I can snag a copy of the reprinted 1e MM.  That's a thought!

Anyway, based on that, I have a few revisions for the wild cat.  Since the 1e version had bite damage = claw damage, I think we should reduce the bite to 1d3.  (I'm willing to go with 1d3 to keep the average damage up.)  I also think we should drop Dex down to 15.  I don't see any way that a bobcat should have Dex 19 when a smaller domestic cat is Dex 15, either in real life or by the advancement rules.  (I'll give the giant lynx a free pass because, you know, it's magic. )

Do you agree?


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, I only played a bit as a kid (during the 2e era), and I drew the short straw when my group divvied up its books.  But maybe I'll see if I can snag a copy of the reprinted 1e MM.  That's a thought!




I have two copies of the 1977 original _Monster Manual_. 



freyar said:


> Anyway, based on that, I have a few revisions for the wild cat.  Since the 1e version had bite damage = claw damage, I think we should reduce the bite to 1d3.  (I'm willing to go with 1d3 to keep the average damage up.)  I also think we should drop Dex down to 15.  I don't see any way that a bobcat should have Dex 19 when a smaller domestic cat is Dex 15, either in real life or by the advancement rules.  (I'll give the giant lynx a free pass because, you know, it's magic. )
> 
> Do you agree?




Would it surprise you to hear "no". 

I thought about the 1d3 bite, but it just felt weird when every other 3E cat I could find had a bite base damage better than its claw base damage. 

The AD&D house cat has a single 1d2 damage "claws" attack and a 1 damage bite attack, while the 3E version has changed that to 1d2/1d2/1d3 claw/claw/bite, which is in line with all the other cats (Small-sized _Races of Faerun_ Lynx 1d3/1d3/1d4; Medium-sized Leopard 1d4/1d4/1d6; Large-sized Lion 1d6/1d6/1d8).

Giving the Wild Cat conversion a d3/d3/d4 claw/claw/bite fits neatly into that progression. They gave the common house cat a damage dice boost from AD&D to 3E, so giving the Wild Cat one on its bite and having fit in with all of the other kitties seems the best way to go.

The Giant Lynx doesn't have Dex 19 'cause its magic, it has Dex 19 because it's a Medium-sized Cat like the Dex 19 leopard.

I'm approaching the Wild Cat like it's a little leopard rather than an enlarged housecat, since the original has such impressive combat abilities for a feline of its size. Another useful comparison is the SRD Dog, which has the same size and a similar weight (20-50 lbs) to this Wild Cat conversion.

Furthermore, an AD&D Wild Cat has AC 5, which is one point better than an AD&D housecat's AC 6 and is two points better than an AD&D wild dog's AC 7. The only practical way to give our wild cat that is to give it a higher Dex or add some natural armour. I suppose I could have given it +1 NA like a Leopard and Dex 17.

Reversing standard Advancements to make a Leopard & Lion Small gives the following comparisons:

Dog - Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, +1 NA
Small Leopard - Str 12, Dex 21, Con 13, +1 NA
Small Lion - Str 9, Dex 21, Con 11, +1 NA

So, as you see, I've put the Wild Cat in the lowest bracket for Strength (Str modifier -1 like a "smallified" Lion), in the middle on Dex and Con, and cut its natural armour (like the common house Cat).

That seems pretty reasonable to me.

It should certainly have a higher Dexterity than a _*dog**!*_

If you force me too I _might_ agree to lower the Con to 11,  but I'd rather not as they're described as being "tougher" than domestic cats, so I think they need the +1 Con bonus.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2012)

I've uploaded the Giant Lynx to the CC but will leave the Wild Cat for tomorrow since (a) it's late and (b) I want to give Freyar an opportunity to reply to my previous posts regarding the Wild Cat.

The *Giant Lynx Working Draft* was missing an alignment and treasure line, so I used "None" and "Always neutral" like the 3.0 conversion of the Giant Lynx already on the CC. It's pretty obvious from the original stats that's what it was going to be, I just forgot to insert the "Animal Standards" in those stats.

I've left the "Cold forest and plains" environment of the 3.0 version in as well, despite preferring just "Cold forest", since no one else gave any support for the change.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2012)

Those additions to the giant lynx seem appropriate.

As for the wild cat, this is why I don't feel comfortable trying to rush a critter for a given batch of 10.  

In any case, I saw your logic on the bite damage, and I'll give you that if you'll give me Dex 17.  I don't like using the dog as a reference, as it clearly has too high a Dex compared to the house cat.  Frankly, the leopard and lion do, too; I just don't see any way that makes sense that they are both more agile than a standard cat (though that's more realistic than the dog).  This is probably a case where the original 3e designers were in a rush and didn't talk to each other about what they were doing.  At least Pathfinder reduced the dog's Dex to 13.

So, if we're making it "intermediate" between the house cat and the great cats, let's compromise with Dex 17 and NA +1.  How's that?


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2012)

freyar said:


> Those additions to the giant lynx seem appropriate.
> 
> As for the wild cat, this is why I don't feel comfortable trying to rush a critter for a given batch of 10.
> 
> ...




Well I'm modelling it more on a downsized leopard as far as its stats go. Both a "Small Leopard" (assuming Dex 19) and the Lynx from _Races of Faerun_ have Hide +12 and Move Silently +8, and I like the Wild Cat with the same.

A Dex 17 Wild Cat would be:

*Cat, Wild*
Small Animal
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+1 (5 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-5
*Attack:* Claw +4 melee (1d3-1)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +4 melee (1d3-1) and bite -1 melee (1d4-1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d3-1
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 8, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +11*, Jump +7, Listen +5, Move Silently +7, Spot +5
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Any forests, hills, or plains
*Organization:* Solitary or family (2-5)
*Challenge Rating:* ½
*Advancement:* 2 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* —

Hmm...

I've also statted up a "Lesser Wild Cat" I wasn't intending to use, but how about I add that to the entry for the "intermediate version":

A Tiny-sized version of the above, such as a Margay, has stats between the above Wild Cat and a standard Cat, e.g.:

*Lesser Wild Cat*
Tiny Animal
*Hit Dice:* ½d8+1 (3 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor** Class:* 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-11
*Attack:* Claw +5 melee (1d2-3)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +5 melee (1d2-3) and bite +0 melee (1d3-3)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 4, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +12, Hide +16*, Jump +7, Listen +5, Move Silently +7, Spot +5
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Any forests, hills, or plains
*Organization:* Solitary or family (2-5)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/3
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a lesser wild cat must hit with  its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free  action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the  grapple check, it establishes a hold.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a wild cat charges a foe, it can make a full attack.

Then I just change the line "The smallest wild cats, such as a margay, have the same stats as the common  housecat in the _Monster Manual_." to "The smallest wild cats, such as a margay, use the stats of the lesser wild cat given below."


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2012)

So, what I'm proposing is:

[*Wild Cat Statblock*]

This entry describes a large male wildcat (_Felis silvestris_), a  bobcat, or another feline of similar size. Smaller wild cats such as the margay use the stats of the lesser wild cat (see below) or the Cat entry in the _Monster Manual_. Wild  cats are adaptable animals that can be found in many terrains, but  are  commonest in forests. A wild cat family consists of a mother and  her  cubs.

A wild cat is 2 to 4 feet long and can weigh up to 60 pounds, although 20 pounds is a more typically weight.

[*Wild Cat Combat Entry*]

*Lesser Wild Cat*
Tiny Animal
*Hit Dice:* ½d8+1 (3 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor** Class:* 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-11
*Attack:* Claw +5 melee (1d2-3)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +5 melee (1d2-3) and bite +0 melee (1d3-3)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 4, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +12, Hide +16*, Jump +7, Listen +5, Move Silently +7, Spot +5
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Any forests, hills, or plains
*Organization:* Solitary or family (2-5)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/3
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

Lesser wild cats include the margay, smaller specimens of wildcat and jungle cat, and similarly-sized wild felines. It can also represent an   exceptionally large and ferocious domestic cat (feral or otherwise).

A lesser wild cat is between 1½ and 2 feet long and weighs between 8 and 15 pounds.

*COMBAT*

*Improved Grab (Ex):*  To use this ability, a lesser wild cat must hit with  its bite attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free  action without  provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the  grapple check, it  establishes a hold.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a lesser wild cat charges a foe, it can make a full attack.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2012)

This is getting to be way too much.  I really don't think the "lesser wild cat" is worth the distinction from a normal "cat" in the SRD.  The difference could really be handled by giving a cat the elite array.  I guess, from a simulationist point of view, domestic and wild cats interbreed all the time, so they shouldn't have such wildly different stats.

Dex 17 on the Small version is all I'm asking for here, really.  Think of it this way if you need to:  The original wild cat just has THAC0 19, so a +4 attack bonus is really as much as we should give the 3.5 version.


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2012)

freyar said:


> Dex 17 on the Small version is all I'm asking for here, really.  Think of it this way if you need to:  The original wild cat just has THAC0 19, so a +4 attack bonus is really as much as we should give the 3.5 version.




Oh very well, I'll accept Dex 17 and NA +1 for the Small version, but would like to keep the Tiny version in the entry.

Is that OK?


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2012)

That'll work for me.  

The real problem is that the domestic SRD cat and the SRD big cats are out of touch with each other, but I think this bridges both as well as possible.


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2012)

freyar said:


> That'll work for me.
> 
> The real problem is that the domestic SRD cat and the SRD big cats are out of touch with each other, but I think this bridges both as well as possible.




Great!

I'm glad that's sorted out. Just as well I didn't relieved I didn't show you the Cleon Special version I'd also come up with... 

Updating *Wild Cat Working Draft*.

I've given it a thrice-over to check the stats, and corrected a couple of errors from when we lowered the Dex (I forgot to lower the rake's attack bonus to +4 and the Lesser Wildcat's Hide to +15).

Everything else checked out, so I'll Upload it to the CC.


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## freyar (Jul 24, 2012)

Have any preferences on what to do next?  I'm looking at the (slightly outdated) unconverted animals list, and there's a batch of horses we could tackle (or really anything else, can't say I care much).


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Have any preferences on what to do next?  I'm looking at the (slightly outdated) unconverted animals list, and there's a batch of horses we could tackle (or really anything else, can't say I care much).




I'm most tempted by the birds on that list.


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## freyar (Jul 25, 2012)

Sure.

I guess the falcon is the first of the real-world ones.  Do you or  [MENTION=9849]Echohawk[/MENTION] have the original stats?  I'd probably downgrade a hawk slightly and swap the talons to something that sounds more bludgeoning.


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## Echohawk (Jul 25, 2012)

In the _Monster Manual II_ (1983), falcons are part of the "Falcon (Hawk)" entry, which is broken into "Small" and "Large" variation. Assuming that the "Small" stats apply to falcons:

Frequency: Rare
No. appearing: 1 or 2
Armor class: 5
Move: 1" / 36"
Hit dice: 1 minus 1
% in lair: 30%
Treasure type: See below
No. of attacks: 3
Damage/attack: 1/1/1
Special attacks: See below
Special defenses See below
Magic resistance: Standard
Intelligence: Animal
Alignment: Neutral
Size: S (2-3' wingspread)
Psionic ability: Nil
Level/XP value: I/15 + 1/hp

In the _Monstrous Compendium Volume Two_ (1989), the falcon is now part of the "Hawk" entry, under the heading of "Small (Falcon)":

Climate/Terrain: Any land subarctic to tropical
Frequency: Rare
Organisation: Pair
Activity cycle: Day
Diet: Carnivore
Intelligence: Animal (1)
Treasure: See below
Alignment: Neutral
No. appearing: 1-2
Armor class: 5
Move: Fl 36 (B)
Hit dice: 1-1
THAC0: 20
No. of attacks: 3
Damage/attack: 1/1/1
Special attacks: See below
Special defenses Nil
Magic resistance: Nil
Size: S (2'-3')
Morale: Unsteady (6)
XP value: 65

Exactly the same stats as these appear again in the _Monstrous Manual_ (1993) entry, but with less descriptive text.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2012)

In 3E terms, a falcon's basically just the SRD Hawk with fly 80 ft. (good) instead of 60 ft. (average).

Does it really need more?

I suppose we could do a "Large Hawk" that's intermediary between a Hawk and and Eagle, if you wanted.

Anyhow, I was more interested in the "non real world" birds on that list, like the Kingfisher of Krynn or the various giant versions of regular birds.

Hmm, don't we already have a conversion of the Boobrie? Or am I mixing that up with a similiar bird.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2012)

I was just looking through Echohawk's index to check the Skyfisher and I noticed another animal:

Polyhedron #48  Attack Skunk

An *Attack Skunk!*  We must remember to convert that!


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## freyar (Jul 27, 2012)

It does seem like the falcon probably isn't worth a conversion.  No need for a "large hawk."

I don't see a conversion in the index for the attack skunk.  If someone has the stats for that, why not do it now?


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> It does seem like the falcon probably isn't worth a conversion.  No need for a "large hawk."
> 
> I don't see a conversion in the index for the attack skunk.  If someone has the stats for that, why not do it now?




I don't think I have that issue, and if I do it wouldn't be handy.

Where's Echohawk when we need him!?


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2012)

[MENTION=9849]Echohawk[/MENTION] summoning spell!


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> @Echohawk  summoning spell!




What level would that spell be?


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## Echohawk (Jul 29, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Where's Echohawk when we need him!?






freyar said:


> [MENTION=9849]Echohawk[/MENTION] summoning spell!




Thanks for that spell. I was stuck in an extradimensional space for a few days, with no way to access ENWorld, and that summoning spell was just the thing I needed to find a way out!

The attack skunk from Polyhedron 48 was reprinted again in the _Encyclopedia Magica, Volume IV_ (p1503). It comes from an article title _Wand of Wondrousness_ which expands the effects of the wand of wonder. An "attack" creature is just an ordinary creature which attacks because the wand effect summons it to attack. As well as the attack skunk, there is also an attack doggie, an attack kitty, an attack rat, an attack chicken, an attack viper, an attack grizzy cub, attack butterflies (!), an attack shark, an attack pugilist (!!), an attack giant ant, an attack tyrannosaurus rex  (just a baby), an attack rabbit, an attack octopus, and three different varieties of attack lowlives.

Just in case that list doesn't dissuade you from tackling the attack skunk, its stats are: HD 1; hp 1; AC 6; #AT  1; Dmg nil; THAC0 19; SA _stinking cloud_ on one creature, flees after delivering cloud.


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## Cleon (Jul 29, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> Thanks for that spell. I was stuck in an extradimensional space for a few days, with no way to access ENWorld, and that summoning spell was just the thing I needed to find a way out!
> 
> The attack skunk from Polyhedron 48 was reprinted again in the _Encyclopedia Magica, Volume IV_ (p1503). It comes from an article title _Wand of Wondrousness_ which expands the effects of the wand of wonder. An "attack" creature is just an ordinary creature which attacks because the wand effect summons it to attack. As well as the attack skunk, there is also an attack doggie, an attack kitty, an attack rat, an attack chicken, an attack viper, an attack grizzy cub, attack butterflies (!), an attack shark, an attack pugilist (!!), an attack giant ant, an attack tyrannosaurus rex  (just a baby), an attack rabbit, an attack octopus, and three different varieties of attack lowlives.
> 
> Just in case that list doesn't dissuade you from tackling the attack skunk, its stats are: HD 1; hp 1; AC 6; [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=AT]#AT [/URL]  1; Dmg nil; THAC0 19; SA _stinking cloud_ on one creature, flees after delivering cloud.




So it's pretty much just a standard skunk? That's pretty dull.

Surely we an get a better monster out of the concept of "Attack Skunk" than that.

Oh well, it can wait until after the birdies, anyway.

Shall we go through them alphabetically? That would put the Boobrie next.


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## Cleon (Jul 30, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Shall we go through them alphabetically? That would put the Boobrie next.




Okay, I've checked the Boobrie's stats and there are two versions of this avian.

The oldest version is a 1E AD&D monster from _Monster Manual II_ (Gary Gygax, 1983). It stands 12 feet tall and is a known maneater. The Boobrie in the _MC11 Forgotten Realms Monstrous Compendium Appendix_ (1991) and the _Monstrous Manual_ (1993) is the same as this monster.

There's also a Boobrie in _HR3 Celts Campaign Sourcebook_ (1992) that's only 6 feet tall and rarely eats people. But that's only because Boobries hunt creatures smaller than themselves. The "Celtic Boobrie" will eat Small-sized human children.

Apart from one being Large and the other Medium-sized, the two are pretty similar. The original one has 9 HD and a 2d8 damage beak, its half-sized version 4+4 HD and a 2d4 damage beak, so they're pretty close to a standard 3E size progression.

Shall I post their stats?


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2012)

Might as well.  It sounds to me like we should just start Medium and advance to Large, but I suppose we could do a juvenile/adult or something if you really like.


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> Might as well.  It sounds to me like we should just start Medium and advance to Large, but I suppose we could do a juvenile/adult or something if you really like.




They've got different special attacks, live in different habitats, and have a few other salient differences.

They're enough to be separate monsters, methinks.

Anyhow, it'd be easier if I post the stats.


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2012)

*Boobrie*
*Climate/Terrain:* Temperate lakes
*Frequency: *Rare
*Organization: *Solitary
*Activity Cycle: *Day
*Diet: *Carnivore
*Intelligence: *Animal (1)
*Treasure: *(O, W)
*Alignment: *Nil
*No. Appearing: *1-2
*Armor Class: *7
*Movement: *2, Fl 20, Sw 6
*Hit Dice: *4 + 4
*THAC0: *17
*No. of Attacks: *1
*Damage/Attack: *2d4 or 1d6
*Special Attacks: *Wing buffet
*Special Defenses: *Nil
*Magic Resistance: *Nil
*Size:* M (20’ wingspan)
*Morale: *Unsteady (5-7)
*XP Value:* 420

The boobrie is a giant bird, looking much like a loon or northern diver which has grown to the size of a man. It is completely black in color. It haunts the lakesides of western Scotland and supplements its diet of fish by devouring lambs and calves that stray too close to the waterside. It has been known to wait in ambush in the reeds by the side of a lake and attack anything the size of a sheep or smaller—including young children—which wanders within reach. Its call is harsh and loud and can carry for several miles.

*Combat:* The boobrie attacks with its 2-foot beak, and can also rear up to deliver a wing-buffet once every three rounds. The wing-buffet automatically hits any creature directly in front of the boobrie and not more than 5 feet away. It causes 1d6 damage, and the opponent must make a Dexterity ability check or be knocked down, dropping any hand-held items.

*Habitat/Society:* Boobries inhabit upland lakes in the more remote parts of northern and western Europe. In the spring they form pairs and build nests of floating vegetation which can be up to 20 feet across. They lay 1d4 eggs, and throughout the late spring and early summer they are busy gathering food for their young. Any treasure they have will be in the nest at this time of year, having been brought there on the bodies of human prey.

*Ecology:* Boobries eat fish and any mammals they can catch. They have no natural enemies other than dragons, wyverns, and other such monsters, and humans who often try to kill boobries to protect their livestock.

_Originally appeared in HR3 - Celts Campaign Sourcebook (1992)._

*Avian - Boobrie*
*Climate/Terrain:* Subtropical/Swamps
*Frequency: *Rare
*Organization: *Solitary
*Activity Cycle: *Day
*Diet: *Carnivore
*Intelligence: *Animal (1)
*Treasure: *Nil
*Alignment: *Neutral
*No. Appearing: *1-2
*Armor Class: *5
*Movement: *15, Fl 15 (D)
*Hit Dice: *9
*THAC0: *11
*No. of Attacks: *3
*Damage/Attack: *1-6 (x2)/2-16
*Special Attacks: *Surprise
*Special Defenses: *Immune to poison
*Magic Resistance: *Nil
*Size:* L (12’ tall)
*Morale: *Steady (11-12)
*XP Value:* 2,000

Avians, whether magical or mundane in nature, are among the most interesting creatures ever to evolve. Their unique physiology sets them apart from all other life, and their grace and beauty have earned them a place of respect and adoration in the tales of many races.

*Boobrie*
The boobrie is a giant relative of the stork. Its origins are lost in mists of ancient time and arcane lore. Although some scholars suggest that there is a link between the boobrie and the roc, there seems to be little that the two species have in common (apart from their great size.)

An adult boobrie stands roughly 12 feet tall and may weigh as much as 300 pounds. Although its weight may seem low for such a huge creature, it is important to remember that this animal, like most fliers, is built very light. When a boobrie is threatened or comes across a creature too powerful for it to fight, it fluffs up its feathers to look even more imposing than it already is. When it does this, a number of long feathers on the back of the boobrie’s neck become erect, making it look as though the creature were two or three feet taller.

The boobrie stands on two long, slender legs. Its feet are split into four slender toes that stretch very wide to enable the creature to move quickly through marshes and swamps. Although these legs enable the creature to run at a very high speed, they are fairly weak when used in combat. A boobrie will hunt primarily with its beak, which is shaped much like that of a heron, with a hook like that of an eagle. In addition, its powerful jaw muscles and the sharp, serrated edge of its beak give it a vicious bite.

A boobrie’s diet is largely made up of giant catfish and other large denizens of the wetlands. On occasion, though, it hunts for other prey. When times are rough, the boobrie feeds on all manner of snakes, lizards, and, if it finds them, giant spiders. Its occasional dependence on a diet of creatures that can deliver a toxic bite has, over the centuries, caused the boobrie to develop an immunity to all manner of toxins.

When a boobrie hunts, it finds a grove of tall marsh grass or similar vegetation and slips into it. Once within its hunting blind, it remains perfectly still, often for hours at a time, until prey comes within sight. Then, with a speed which seems uncanny in such a large creature, it springs forth and attacks. When employing this means of ambush, a boobrie forces its opponents to suffer a -3 penalty to their surprise rolls.

If two boobrie are encountered, they are usually (75%) a mated pair. These adult boobries always have at least 5 hit points per Hit Die. If the boobries are not adults (25% chance), they are young with 4 or fewer hit points per Hit Die.

_Originally appeared in MC11 - Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (1991)._


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2012)

There's also the original 1st edition AD&D version from Monster Manual II, which is pretty much the same as the MC11 version.

*BOOBRIE*
*FREQUENCY:* Rare
*NO. APPEARING:* 1-2
*ARMOR CLASS:* 5
*MOVE:* 15”/15” (MC: D)
*HIT DICE:* 9
*% IN LAIR:* Nil
*TREASURE TYPE:* Nil
*NO. OF ATTACKS:* 3
*DAMAGE/ATTACK:* 1-6/1-6/2-16
*SPECIAL ATTACKS:* Surprises 2 in 6
*SPECIAL DEFENSES:* Immune to poison
*MAGIC RESISTANCE:* Standard
*INTELLIGENCE:* Animal
*ALIGNMENT:* Neutral
*SIZE:* L (12’ tall)
*PSIONIC ABILITY:* Nil
*Attack/Defense:* Nil/nil
*LEVEL/XP VALUE:* VI/900 + 12/hp

The gigantic boobrie resembles a smaller, marsh-dwelling relative of the roc. Its favorite foods, other than the huge marsh catfish, are humans and sheep. Its long legs permit fast running and easy movement through swampy ground, but its claws are relatively weak.

The boobrie's flight is slow. Its principal attack is by means of its long, hooked beak. These birds are totally immune to all forms of poison, and if favored forms of prey are not available they will eat snakes, lizards, and even spiders of sufficient size. They achieve surprise by crouching amidst tall grasses. If 2 are encountered they will be either a mated pair of adults (at least 5 points per hit die) or a pair of young (4 or fewer points per hit die).

A boobrie looks as if it were a huge heron with a beak resembling a cross between that of a heron and an eagle. There are a number of small, sharp teeth along the edges of the beak.

_Originally appeared in Monster Manual II (1983)._


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2012)

The MMII version seems to be missing the "puff up" ability of the MC11 version, but I see what you mean.

So: do a "celtic boobrie" and a standard or great boobrie?  Start with the celtic one?


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> The MMII version seems to be missing the "puff up" ability of the MC11 version, but I see what you mean.
> 
> So: do a "celtic boobrie" and a standard or great boobrie?  Start with the celtic one?




I'd rather call the smaller version a "Black Boobrie" rather than refer to it by a real-world culture.

The Monster Manual II version was the original, so I think it deserves to go first. I'd "officially" call it a Boobrie but mention it's sometimes called the Great Boobrie in the background info.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2012)

Sure, we can start the (great) boobrie first.

9HD Large Animal?


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure, we can start the (great) boobrie first.
> 
> 9HD Large Animal?




Yeah I would think so.

We could use the Creature Catalog's *Giant Crane* conversion as a foundation, I suppose. It's the same size as the Celtic version, so we'll need to enlarge it for the "Great Boobrie", and I don't think it needs such a high Wisdom.

Do we want to make these Dire Animals?


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2012)

*Boobrie Working Draft*

*Boobrie*
Large Animal
*Hit Dice:* 9d8+18 (58 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 50 ft. (poor), swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 17 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+15
*Attack:* Bite +10 melee (2d8+5/19-20×3)
*Full Attack:* Bite +10 melee (2d8+5/19-20×3) and 2 claws +4 (1d6+2)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Augmented critical, improved grab
*Special Qualities:* Immunity to poison, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 20, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +8, Intimidate +4, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +10, Swim +13
*Feats:* Alertness, Stealthy, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm marshes
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or nest (2 plus 1-2 eggs or non-combative young)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Advancement:* 10-12 HD (Large); 13-18 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A giant stork-like bird whose enormous  saw-toothed beak combines the length of a heron's bill with the hooked  tip of an eagle. Twice a man's height, it stands upright on long, slim  legs whose splayed-out feet have equally elongated toes. The bird has a  ruff on long feathers on the back of its neck, resembling the crest of  some rocs._

A boobrie is a giant water bird found in hot swamps and marshes. It is  often called a "Great Boobrie" to distinguish it from a smaller species  of boobrie found in cooler climates, the "Black Boobrie". Scholars of  nature are divided on whether a boobrie is a giant relative of the stork  or a small marsh-dwelling cousin of the roc, but all agree this avian  is a dangerous predator that will prey upon humanoids and their  livestock.

The beak of a great boobrie is a terrible weapon with both sharply  serrated edges and a number of small teeth along its sides. A boobrie's  favorite prey are catfish but it is not fussy about its victims.  Boobries often eat venomous creatures such as vipers or monstrous  spiders, since these avians are immune to poison.

Boobries form mated pairs to breed and raise their young. Pairs of  boobrie prefer to hunt and guard their nest together. They lay one or  two oversized eggs that hatch very quickly. Young boobries are  precocious and fast growing, and soon grow large enough to leave their  parents. They often hunt with their sibling until they become adults and  seek their own mate and territory.

A boobrie stands roughly 12 feet tall and weighs about 600 pounds.

*COMBAT*
Great boobries try to attack from ambush, tearing into prey with beak  and claw.  A boobrie will sometimes grab a smaller opponent with its  beak and drag them into the marsh to deal with.

Like most sensible predators, a great boobrie may flee from a losing  fight. Boobries sometimes puff out their head-feathers in an intimidating  display that may demoralize prey or startle an enemy long enough for the  bird to escape.

*Augmented Critical (Ex):* A boobrie's bite attack threatens a critical on a 19-20 and does triple damage if the critical is confirmed.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* If a boobrie hits a smaller opponent with its bite attack it can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

*Skills:*  A boobrie has a +4 racial bonus to Hide, Intimidate and Spot checks.

A boobrie has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some  special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a  Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action  while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. 

_Originally appeared in the __Monster Manual II (1983)_

*Boobrie, Black*
Medium Animal
*Hit Dice:* 4d8+4 (22 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 60 ft. (average), swim 30 ft.     
*Armor Class:* 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+5
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (2d4+2) or wing-buffet +5 melee (1d6+2)
*Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (2d4+2) and wing-buffet +0 melee (1d6+1); or wing-buffet +5 melee (1d6+2) and bite +1 melee (2d4+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Trip
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +5, Intimidate +2, Listen +7, Spot +10, Swim +10
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Temperate marshes
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or nest (2 plus 1-4 eggs or non-combative young)
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
*Advancement:* 5-6 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A waterbird about as big a human, completely black in color except  for its blood-red eyes. Its streamlined body resembles that of a loon or  diving duck, with a feather-crest on its head and neck like a  merganser. The bird clearly hunts live prey, for its chisel-shaped beak  has saw-toothed edges to hold struggling food. Its body stands  half-upright on short legs that end in feet with four elongated toes  connected by webbing._

A black boobrie is a dangerous waterbird of unusual size that dwell in  temperate lakes and marshes. They mainly eat fish, but have been known  to attack any creature smaller than themselves - such as lambs, calves,  children or gnomes. Black boobries prefer to live in reed beds, which  give them plenty of cover from which to lunge at prey and hide from  enemies.

Black boobries form mated pairs in spring and build floating nests in  which they lay from 1 to 4 eggs. These nests of woven vegetation can be  of considerable size, and have been known to reach 20 feet in diameter.  The nest contains the remains of the boobries' victims, which may  include treasure. The young disperse in early summer as soon as they are  large enough to fight for themselves.

A black boobrie stands roughly 6 feet tall and weighs about 75 pounds.

*COMBAT*
Black boobries usually ambush prey by lunging out from reed beds. They  typically try to wing-buffet their opponent to the ground, then stab  them with their beaks. Like most sensible predators, a black boobrie may  flee from a losing  fight. Boobries sometimes puff out their head-feathers in an intimidating  display that may demoralize prey or startle an enemy long enough for the  bird to escape.

*Trip (Ex):* A black boobrie that hits with a wing-buffet attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+2 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the boobrie. 

*Skills:* A black boobrie has a +2 racial bonus to Intimidate checks and a +4 racial bonus to Spot checks.

A black boobrie has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. 

*Note:* The Black Boobrie originally appeared as the "Boobrie" in the _Celts Campaign Sourcebook_. Renamed to avoid confusion with the Boobrie from the _Monster Manual II_ and _Forgotten Realms Monstrous Compendium_.

_Originally appeared in HR3 - Celts Campaign Sourcebook (1992)._


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2012)

Let's see how it looks before deciding on Dire.

I'd probably push the Wis down to 10-11.  Cha could go up to average also.

I suppose I'd put the physical stats in the 14-16 range.  Sound reasonable?


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's see how it looks before deciding on Dire.
> 
> I'd probably push the Wis down to 10-11.  Cha could go up to average also.




While I think the CC Giant Crane's Wis 16 is too high, 10-11 is too low.

I was thinking 14, like the Hawk, Eagle, Giant Eagle and Giant Owl in the SRD



freyar said:


> I suppose I'd put the physical stats in the 14-16 range.  Sound reasonable?




The Giant Eagle and Giant Owl are both Str 18, Dex 17 and are Large-sized like the Boobrie. However, they're a bit shorter than the 12' Boobrie (9' for a Giant Owl, 10' for an Eagle) and the Boobrie is described as a clumsy flyer.

So, maybe a notch up on the Str and a notch down on the Dex for Str 20, Dex 15?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2012)

How about Str 20, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 11?


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about Str 20, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 11?




A Giant Owl/Eagle has Con 12, and I'd think our Boobrie should have at least that.

Con 13-14 would suit me.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2012)

Con 13 will preserve the even-odd split, and that seems fine to me.


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> Con 13 will preserve the even-odd split, and that seems fine to me.




Hmm, I'm tempted to give the "Great" version Constitution 15 and the Medium sized one Con 13.


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2012)

That's a fair compromise.  I assume we'd also decrease Str for the Medium one.



> When a boobrie is threatened or comes across a creature too powerful for it to fight, it fluffs up its feathers to look even more imposing than it already is. When it does this, a number of long feathers on the back of the boobrie’s neck become erect, making it look as though the creature were two or three feet taller.




Some sort of puff-up ability to boost Intimidate checks?


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## Cleon (Aug 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> That's a fair compromise.  I assume we'd also decrease Str for the Medium one.




Yes, I was thinking either Str 14 or 16.



freyar said:


> Some sort of puff-up ability to boost Intimidate checks?




I thought about that but wasn't sure it rated an actual SQ. A simple racial bonus to Intimidate ought to cover it.


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## freyar (Aug 16, 2012)

In that case, Str 20, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 11 for the great boobrie?

Just a racial Intimidate bonus would be fine as long as we put the appropriate flavor in.


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> In that case, Str 20, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 11 for the great boobrie?




I thought we were talking Con 15 for the Great Boobrie, not Con 13.

Charisma 11 is higher than a Giant Eagle, which doesn't seem quite right. I suppose it'd help their Intimidation, but I'd rather give them the same or slightly lower than an Eagle or Owl. We can always increase the racial bonus to Intimidate a tad to match whatever.

Like so:

*Great Boobrie:* Str 20, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 9, 2d8 bite
*Black Boobrie:* Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 9, 2d4 bite?



freyar said:


> Just a racial Intimidate bonus would be fine as long as we put the appropriate flavor in.




Agreed.


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## freyar (Aug 16, 2012)

Argh, that was a typo.  Those abilities are fine.  The bites look right, too, and we can add 1d6 wing buffets to each.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> Argh, that was a typo.  Those abilities are fine.




I'll update the *Boobrie Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Argh, that was a typo.  Those abilities are fine.   The bites look right, too, and we can add 1d6 wing buffets to  each.




The _Monster Manual II_ Boobrie didn't have wing buffets, it has two weak claw attacks with its feet.

The Celtic version has a wing buffet with a special effect but no kicking claws.

If we follow that we'd give the "Great Boobrie" a bite/claw/claw and the "Black Boobrie" a bite OR wing-buffet.

I'd be tempted to add a wing-buffet option to the Great Boobrie though.

e.g.:

*Great Boobrie
*Attack: Bite or Wing-Buffet
Full Attack: Bite and 2 claws; or 2 wing-buffets

*Black Boobrie*
Attack: Bite or Wing-Buffet
Full Attack: Bite or Wing-Buffet


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2012)

Hmm, I must have transposed the wing buffet onto the great boobrie as well. 

I think we need to maintain some distinction between the two versions, though.  So if we add a wing buffet to the great boobrie, I don't think it should have the knock-down ability.  And they should be relatively weak.


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## Cleon (Aug 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I must have transposed the wing buffet onto the great boobrie as well.
> 
> I think we need to maintain some distinction between the two versions, though.  So if we add a wing buffet to the great boobrie, I don't think it should have the knock-down ability.  And they should be relatively weak.




I'm OK giving the "Great" Boobrie claws and no wing buffet and vica-versa for the Black Boobrie.


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## Cleon (Aug 21, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'm OK giving the "Great" Boobrie claws and no wing buffet and vica-versa for the Black Boobrie.




Oh, and don't we have a wing buffet attack in a conversion of the AD&D Swan?

I remember seeing such a SA somewhere...


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2012)

The 3.0 version of the swan in the CC blinds victims of its wing attack, but that doesn't sound right.  But you're right, we did have something similar with some kind of bird-like creature.  A diving trip attack, maybe.


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## Cleon (Aug 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> The 3.0 version of the swan in the CC blinds victims of its wing attack, but that doesn't sound right.  But you're right, we did have something similar with some kind of bird-like creature.  A diving trip attack, maybe.




We could simply give them the standard Trip (Ex) attack with their wings, like a SRD Wolf has with its bite.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2012)

Cleon said:


> We could simply give them the standard Trip (Ex) attack with their wings, like a SRD Wolf has with its bite.



That's a nice elegant solution.

Any other SAs or SQs you want?


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> That's a nice elegant solution.
> 
> Any other SAs or SQs you want?




Let me update the *Boobrie Working Draft* first.

We are calling the Black Boobrie's special attack "Trip" rather than "Wing-Buffet", right? Consistency does favour "Trip".

I'm tempted to make the wing-buffet do nonlethal damage like a sap, since it's just slapping its opponent with feathers.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> Any other SAs or SQs you want?




Well the "Great Boobrie" seems sorely lacking a special attack. Large heron-type birds sometimes impale prey on their beaks, and ground-hunting birds sometimes crush their prey into the dirt.

Shall we give them some kind of "Skewer" or "Pin" ability?

Here's another question: the HR3 'Black' Boobrie has a Swim speed, so should we give the MMII 'Great' Boobrie a Swim speed too?

That'd let it stalk its prey underwater, like a Snakebird (by which I mean the geunus _Anhinga_, not some bizarre hybrid of hawk and cobra).

Hmm, although a "Cobrahawk" has possibilities...


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, although a "Cobrahawk" has possibilities...




Just for my own amusement, I combined an Advanced Bloodhawk with a Medium Viper Snake to get the following. It doesn't have any "fluff" or tactics, but those'd be easy enough to whip up.

*Cobrahawk*
Medium Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 2d10+2 (13 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft., fly 50 ft. (poor), swim 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+3
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d4+1) or claw +5 melee (1d4+1)
*Full Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d4+1) or 2 claws +3 melee (1d4)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Poison, wounding
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., dire beast, ferocity, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
*Skills:* Balance +7, Climb +11, Hide +7, Listen +4, Spot +7, Swim +9
*Feats:* Multiattack, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Warm forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or murder (3–12)
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3–6 HD (Medium-size)

Background.

*COMBAT*
Tactics.

*Dire Beast (Ex):* A cobrahawk has all good saves.

*Ferocity (Ex): *A cobrahawk is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying.

*Poison (Ex):* A cobrahawk has a poisonous bite that deals initial and secondary damage of 1d6 Con The DC 12 Fort save is Constitution-based.

*Wounding (Ex):* A wound resulting from a cobrahawk’s claw attack bleeds for an additional 1 point of damage per round thereafter. Multiple wounds from such attacks result in cumulative bleeding loss (two wounds for 2 points of damage per round, and so on). The bleeding can be stopped only by a Heal check (DC 15) or the application of any _cure _spell or other healing spell (_heal, healing circle, _or the like).

*Skills:* Cobrahawks have a +2 racial bonus on Hide and Listen checks, a +4 racial bonus on Balance and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. Cobrahawks use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A cobrahawk has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Climb or Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2012)

Let's add a swim speed for the great boobrie.  I'd support a "pin" or Improved Grab for the great boobrie (on the claws), too.

Yes, I agree that the extra effect of the black boobrie's wing buffet should be "trip."  I do have to say that I think the intent of the wing buffets is to be lethal damage, though.  If you want to be really consistent with attack names, we could just call them "wings" like true dragons.


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## Cleon (Sep 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's add a swim speed for the great boobrie.  I'd support a "pin" or Improved Grab for the great boobrie (on the claws), too.




How fast a Swim?

I'm thinking we should give the Pin / Grab work to the beak, not the claws, since they're described as being weak.



freyar said:


> Yes, I agree that the extra effect of the black boobrie's wing buffet  should be "trip."  I do have to say that I think the intent of the wing  buffets is to be lethal damage, though.  If you want to be really  consistent with attack names, we could just call them "wings" like true  dragons.




Yes, the original was definitely regular damage, it just didn't seem right to make it lethal. There's no mention of claws or sharp edges on its wings, they're just feathers.


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## freyar (Sep 6, 2012)

Hmm, I always think of the wings as being more like a slam attack (so bludgeoning).  Then the damage doesn't really require any sharpness and is more due to the boobrie's strength.  Think of it like a reverse ostrich (puny wings, strong legs and claws).

Imp Grab with the bite would work.


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## Cleon (Sep 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I always think of the wings as being more like a slam attack (so bludgeoning).  Then the damage doesn't really require any sharpness and is more due to the boobrie's strength.  Think of it like a reverse ostrich (puny wings, strong legs and claws).
> 
> Imp Grab with the bite would work.




What about a Pin with the beak, or maybe "Impaling" on a critical?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2012)

How would you want the "impale" to work?  Give it an increased crit damage multiplier and maybe auto-grapple or something?


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## Cleon (Sep 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> How would you want the "impale" to work?  Give it an increased crit damage multiplier and maybe auto-grapple or something?




Yes, something like that. Probably with the opponent taking damage if they make a grapple check to try to escape the impalement.

Basically, I just think they need a Special Attack of some kind. A plain "Improved Grab" would do in a pinch.

Hmm, the description says their "Great" Boobrie has a beak like a heron with the hooked tip of an eagle, plus small sharp teeth. The hooked tip would be an obstruction to impaling prey. Sounds more like it's designed for grabbing & ripping flesh.


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## freyar (Sep 13, 2012)

How about Augmented Crit (Ex) improving threat range and crit multiplier?


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about Augmented Crit (Ex) improving threat range and crit multiplier?




I'm not sure I really want to "big it up" that much. Plain old Improved Grab might be enough.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2012)

Well, we could just give it either the improved threat range or the bigger multiplier.  Or Imp Grab.  Your choice.


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, we could just give it either the improved threat range or the bigger multiplier.  Or Imp Grab.  Your choice.




Oof! Decisions Decisions.

Of those three options I like the Grab the best.

Water birds have a knack at keeping hold of slippery prey, to prevent their next meal escaping them.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2012)

OK then.  Anything else for the "great" boobrie, or shall we move to skills and feats?


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> OK then.  Anything else for the "great" boobrie, or shall we move to skills and feats?




Okay, I'll update the *Boobrie Working Draft* then.

I guess we can move on to Feats.


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2012)

It's a predator, so I guess the skills should probably look like Listen 6, Spot 6.  

You know, before we get to this (and feats), we should probably fill in some of the blanks.  Like speed, AC, etc.  30 ft speed with 60 ft fly (poor)?


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> It's a predator, so I guess the skills should probably look like Listen 6, Spot 6.
> 
> You know, before we get to this (and feats), we should probably fill in some of the blanks.  Like speed, AC, etc.  30 ft speed with 60 ft fly (poor)?




The original has 15, Fl 15 which reads more like 40 ft., fly 50 ft. (poor). I'd also like to give it a Swim speed like the Black Boobrie, as it's a swamp dweller.

The HR3 Boobrie has 2, Fl 20, Sw 6. A literal interpretation would be 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (average?), swim 20 ft., but that seems too slow on land and in water. How about increaseingthem both by 10 ft.?

We need an AC too. The HR3 Boobrie has AC 7, which is the same as the AD&D Giant Eagle, while the 'Great Boobrie' is two better at AC 5. That suggest we should give our 'Black Boobrie' AC 15 like the SRD Giant Eagle and the man-eating version an AC 2 or 3 higher.

*Boobrie* 
*Armour Class:* 17 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
*Speed:* 40 ft., fly 50 ft. (poor), swim 30 ft.

*Black Boobrie*
*Armour Class:* 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 
*Speed:* 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (average), swim 30 ft.


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2012)

The duckbunny has a 30 ft swim speed, so I could go with that for the black boobrie.  I'd probably bump the land speed to 20 ft also.    The great boobrie seems quite fast on land, but I guess it's still slower than the ToH axe beak, so that's ok.

I approve of the AC division, also.

I still think the black boobrie's wing buffet should be lethal. 

Only the MC11 version mentions looking imposing, so I'd suggest giving a +4? Intimidate bonus to the great boobrie only.  The MC11 text also talks about ambushing, so a Hide bonus might be appropriate for the great boobrie, too.  As for a Spot bonus, I'm not terribly sure, but I wouldn't necessarily be against one.


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> The duckbunny has a 30 ft swim speed, so I could go with that for the black boobrie.  I'd probably bump the land speed to 20 ft also.    The great boobrie seems quite fast on land, but I guess it's still slower than the ToH axe beak, so that's ok.
> 
> I approve of the AC division, also.




I'll update the *Boobrie Working Draft* with the ACs.

I'm not convinced by 20 ft. speed for the Black Boobrie.

The original BB has speed 3 on land, like an AD&D Giant Eagle, which has a land speed of 10 ft. in 3E.

I'll put the 10 ft. version in with a question mark.



freyar said:


> I still think the black boobrie's wing buffet should be lethal.




I'm still undecidedly, nay, _questionably_ red on the issue. 



freyar said:


> Only the MC11 version mentions looking imposing, so I'd suggest giving a +4? Intimidate bonus to the great boobrie only.  The MC11 text also talks about ambushing, so a Hide bonus might be appropriate for the great boobrie, too.  As for a Spot bonus, I'm not terribly sure, but I wouldn't necessarily be against one.




Aw, the celtic boobrie is a big black beastie, so of course folks will be scared of it. Besides, it must be good at hiding. I've been to Scotland quite a few times and I've never seen one.


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2012)

How about I give you 10 ft on the black boobrie land speed if you give me the lethal wing buffet?

I wouldn't mind having the Intimidate bonus only on the great version just to distinguish the two, but I'll give if it's important to you.  As for the Hide bonus, I'm ok with giving it to both.


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## Cleon (Sep 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about I give you 10 ft on the black boobrie land speed if you give me the lethal wing buffet?
> 
> I wouldn't mind having the Intimidate bonus only on the great version just to distinguish the two, but I'll give if it's important to you.  As for the Hide bonus, I'm ok with giving it to both.




I'm fine not giving Intimidate to the Black Boobrie but am not so sure about the lethal wings.

What kind of precedents for wing buffets do we have in 3E. Do swans have official stats anywhere? They had wing-buffets in AD&D if I remember rightly, and would by pretty close to the smaller Boobrie.

Better go and look 'em up...


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## Cleon (Sep 28, 2012)

Well, no luck finding official 3E stats for a Swan, all that turned up after a brief investigation was the Enworld conversion of the _Monster Manual II_ AD&D Swan.

That does lethal damage with its wings, but gets 2 wings that each do 1 point of damage.

Hmm, that suggests we could give it two wing-buffets that do 1d2+2 or 1d2+1 damage rather than a single wing-buffet, if we're being inspired by the swam.

We could also consider giving it a "bite/wing/wing" routine instead of the original "bite or wings". If a *swan* can multi-attack, you'd think a Black Boobrie could as well.

We could have it so it can only Trip on a standard attack wing-buffet (+5 melee 1d2+2) but not on a bite/wing/wing routine's wing buffet (+0 melee 1d2+1, with the bite +5 melee 2d4+2)

I'm also becoming tempted to give both the boobries an augmented critical with their beak bite, maybe ×3 like a spear? Or even 19-20×3.

Heck, my brainstorming's getting too complicated. Let's just go for:

*Boobrie*
*Full Attack:* Bite +10 melee (2d8+5/19-20×3) and 2 claws +5 (1d6+2)
*Skills:* racial bonuses to *Hide*, *Intimidate* and *Spot* checks.

*Black Boobrie*
*Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 60 ft. (average), swim 30 ft.
*Full Attack:* Bite +5 melee (2d4+2) or wing-buffet +5 melee (1d6+2) [lethal]
*Skills:* racial bonuses to *Hide* and *Spot* checks.


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## Cleon (Sep 28, 2012)

The original "Celtic" Boobrie could only use its wing-buffet attack once every 3 rounds. Do we want to do anything with that for our conversion?


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2012)

I like what you've got for those speed, full attack, and skill lines.  Let's do that.  I don't think I would limit the wing-buffet to every 3 rounds, just because I don't quite get the logic for it.  Maybe it can't do it while flying, though.


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> I like what you've got for those speed, full attack, and skill lines.  Let's do that.  I don't think I would limit the wing-buffet to every 3 rounds, just because I don't quite get the logic for it.  Maybe it can't do it while flying, though.




Updating the *Boobrie Working Draft*.

Yeah, making the wing-buffets 1/3rds does seem rather odd, maybe they just thought it was "more game balanced".

What in-world rationalisation for it could they have?

Does wing-buffeting throw the Boobrie off balance so it needs two rounds to get its bearings? If that was the case, why isn't it otherwise impaired?

I would rather leave it a standard action.


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## freyar (Oct 10, 2012)

Yes, let's leave the wing buffets as normal attacks.

Ready for skills?  I believe we were giving them both a racial bonus for Hide and for Spot and the great boobrie one for Intimidate.  How about we make the Hide and Spot bonus +4 each and Intimidate +6?


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, let's leave the wing buffets as normal attacks.
> 
> Ready for skills?  I believe we were giving them both a racial bonus for Hide and for Spot and the great boobrie one for Intimidate.  How about we make the Hide and Spot bonus +4 each and Intimidate +6?




Well the "feather fluffing" Intimidation was just flavour text, so I don't think it need be that high.

Maybe +4 for them all?


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## freyar (Oct 12, 2012)

+4 for all of them is fine with me.

Split the skill points between Listen and Spot for both boobries?  (I'd put the extra 1 rank in Spot for the black boobrie).  Your thoughts?


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## Cleon (Oct 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> +4 for all of them is fine with me.
> 
> Split the skill points between Listen and Spot for both boobries?  (I'd put the extra 1 rank in Spot for the black boobrie).  Your thoughts?




My thoughts is that most of the SRD birds have far more ranks in Listen than in Spot. The eagle and hawk don't have any Listen ranks at all.

Also, we'll need to give them a useful degree of stealth skill.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2012)

You mean more ranks in Spot than Listen?  Owls seem to have comparable ranks in both.  I guess it depends on which sense we want them to use.  So I won't object to putting all ranks into Spot or some such.


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> You mean more ranks in Spot than Listen?  Owls seem to have comparable ranks in both.  I guess it depends on which sense we want them to use.  So I won't object to putting all ranks into Spot or some such.




The SRD Owl has 2 ranks apiece in Listen and Spot and the SRD Giant Owl has 5 ranks in Listen and 2 ranks in Spot.

The SRD Hawk and Eagle has all its ranks in Spot and the Giant Eagle has 2 ranks in Listen and 7 ranks in Spot.

For the Boobrie, I'd prefer a more even distribution - maybe a +4 racial bonus to Spot plus Alertness?

Something like...

Feats: Alertness plus 3 more
Racial Bonuses: +4 Hide, +4 Intimidate, +4 Spot
Skill Ranks: Hide 3, Listen 4, Move Silently 3, Spot 2
=>
Skills: Hide +9, Intimidate +3, Listen +6, Move Silently +7, Spot +10

Hmm, I think we'd better give it Charisma 10 like a Giant Eagle / Giant Owl so it's Intimidate isn't penalized.


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2012)

Agreed to Cha 10.  Skills look fine, too.

Alertness, Power Attack, maybe Weapon Focus (bite), ?


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Agreed to Cha 10.  Skills look fine, too.
> 
> Alertness, Power Attack, maybe Weapon Focus (bite), ?




Not sure about Power Attack, since its attack bonus isn't that great, but I haven't got any better idea at the moment.

How about Multiattack for the last feat?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2012)

Multiattack will work.

Use Alertness and Weapon Focus for the black boobrie?  How did you want to do the black boobrie's skills?  Spot 5 ranks, Listen 2?


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## Cleon (Nov 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> Multiattack will work.




Hold on, the last skill draft didn't include the Size Adjustment in Hide. It should be:

_*Boobrie #1*_
*Abilities:* Str 20, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Feats:* Alertness, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite) plus one
*Skills:* Hide +5, Intimidate +3, Listen +8, Move Silently +7, Spot +10
*racial adjustments:* +4 racial bonuses to Hide, Intimidate, Spot

Hmm, I'm going to change my mind and go for Stealthy. IIRC, the AD&D Boobrie is described as having weak claw attacks but being sneaky. I'd also balance out the stealth skills by shifting a point from MS to Hide.

_*Boobrie #2*_
*Abilities:* Str 20, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Feats:* Alertness, Stealthy, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Skills:* Hide +8, Intimidate +4, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +10
*racial adjustments:* +4 racial bonuses to Hide, Intimidate, Spot



freyar said:


> Use Alertness and Weapon Focus for the black boobrie?  How did you want  to do the black boobrie's skills?  Spot 5 ranks, Listen 2?




Those feats are OK, but that gives it a better Spot than the "Great Boobrie". I'm still wondering whether to give them some Stealth skills.

How about Hide 2, Listen 3, Spot 2, so its Spot's the same as its bigger cousin?

_*Black Boobrie*_
*Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Skills:* Hide +5, Intimidate +4, Listen +7, Spot +10
*racial adjustments:* +4 racial bonuses to Intimidate, Spot


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2012)

Right, the (great) boobrie likes to ambush, so I'm good with the skill and feat allocation there.  I think the black boobrie is ok, too, though I don't think it needs quite so good of a Hide skill.  It's ok as you have it, though.


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## Cleon (Nov 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> Right, the (great) boobrie likes to ambush, so I'm good with the skill and feat allocation there.  I think the black boobrie is ok, too, though I don't think it needs quite so good of a Hide skill.  It's ok as you have it, though.




Well we could move a point of Hide to Intimidate I guess, if it really bothers you, thought that would ironically make it scarier than its 12 foot tall man-eating cousin!

Hmm, which of them had the flavour text about the feather-ruffling again? It wouldn't be amiss giving that one the higher Intimidate.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2012)

The feather-ruffling one is the MC11 Large "great boobrie."  So let's leave the black boobrie's ranks unchanged.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> The feather-ruffling one is the MC11 Large "great boobrie."  So let's leave the black boobrie's ranks unchanged.




So shall we give the "Great Boobrie" an extra point in Intimidate by, say, moving a point out of Listen?


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2012)

How about we leave the skill ranks as you propose in post 1450 and drop or decrease the black boobrie's racial bonus in Intimidate since there's no call for it in the original monster?


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about we leave the skill ranks as you propose in post 1450 and drop or decrease the black boobrie's racial bonus in Intimidate since there's no call for it in the original monster?




I'm against dropping it entirely, but would be fine reducing it to +2.


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2012)

Fair enough.  Are we done with skills and feats now?


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## Cleon (Nov 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Fair enough.  Are we done with skills and feats now?




So we've got the following?

_*Boobrie*_
*Abilities:* Str 20, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Feats:* Alertness, Stealthy, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Skills:* Hide +8, Intimidate +4, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +10
*racial adjustments:* +4 racial bonuses to Hide, Intimidate, Spot

_*Black Boobrie*_
*Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Skills:* Hide +5, Intimidate +2, Listen +7, Spot +10
*racial adjustments:* +4 racial bonus to Spot, +2 to Intimidate

I'd be OK updating the *Boobrie Working Draft* to that and moving on to the background info.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2012)

Yes, let's do that.


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, let's do that.




Updating the *Boobrie Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2012)

Here's a link to the working draft.  The "post" command isn't as nice because it includes the rest of the thread, but the forum software at least translates the URL properly.

OK, let's deal with some of the question marks.  CR: the great boobrie seems a bit worse than the achaierai despite a larger number of hp, so I'd probably peg them at CR 4.  The black boobrie is probably CR 2.  It's not far off from a hippogriff.


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## Cleon (Dec 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> Here's a link to the working draft.  The "post" command isn't as nice because it includes the rest of the thread, but the forum software at least translates the URL properly.
> 
> OK, let's deal with some of the question marks.  CR: the great boobrie seems a bit worse than the achaierai despite a larger number of hp, so I'd probably peg them at CR 4.  The black boobrie is probably CR 2.  It's not far off from a hippogriff.




An Achaierai is definitely better. Their full attack does a lot more damage (8d6+10 if all its natural weapons hit versus a Boobrie's 2d8+2d6+9). That's an average of 38 versus an average of 25, and the Achaierai's claw attack is only 1 less than a Great Boobrie's. It's also got higher AC, a nasty insanity-causing special attack, spell resistance, and roughly the same saves.

Challenge Rating 4 is OK by me.

The Black Boobrie eyeballs OK as CR 2, although it's damage seems a bit low. Maybe we should change its Full Attack option to "and"?

e.g.:

*Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (2d4+2) and wing-buffet +0 melee (1d6+1); or
wing-buffet +5 melee (1d6+2) and bite +1 melee (2d4+1)

I think that'd work better for a CR 2 monster.

Shall I update the *Boobrie Working Draft*?


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## freyar (Dec 13, 2012)

Yes, all those changes sound good to me.  

Suggested environments seem fine.

Org seems like solitary, pair, or family (pair plus 1d6 young) for both types.

For advancement, I lean toward just a few HD without changing sizes, but I'm willing to consider something more expansive if you prefer.


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, all those changes sound good to me.
> 
> Suggested environments seem fine.




Updating the *Boobrie Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Org seems like solitary, pair, or family (pair plus 1d6 young) for both types.




The "Black Boobrie" has:
"_They lay 1d4 eggs, and throughout the late spring and early summer they are busy gathering food for their young_"

and the "Great Boobrie" has
"_If 2 are encountered they will be either a mated pair of adults (at least 5 points per hit die) or a pair of young (4 or fewer points per hit die)._"

That suggests an Organization of "Solitary, pair, or nest (pair plus 1-4 eggs or young)"



freyar said:


> For advancement, I lean toward just a few HD without changing sizes, but I'm willing to consider something more expansive if you prefer.




The _Monster Manual II_ description of the Boobrie is of a "Gigantic" creature looking like a "huge heron" whose favorite food is "huge marsh catfish". That makes me want to allow the Great Boobrie to advance in size. The only official 3E Giant Catfish I can see in Echohawk's index is in _Dungeon #82_. Comparing those stats to our Great Boobrie it ought to be able to take out a standard Giant Catfish, although it might be a tough fight. An "Advanced Boobrie" would find it a lot easier:
*Giant Catfish:* CR 4; Large Animal (11 ft. long); HD 7d8+14; hp 45 each; Init +2 (Dex); Spd swim 60 ft.; AC 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural); Atk +7 melee (1d8+4, bite); SA improved grab, swallow whole, Face 5 ft. × 10 ft.; AL N; SV Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +3; Str 17, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.​
The Black Boobrie seems to stick to Man-size, so I'm fine not having it advance.

How about.

*"Great" Boobrie:* 10-12 HD (Large); 13-18 HD (Huge)
*Black Boobrie:* 5-6 HD (Medium)


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2012)

If they lay 1d4 eggs per year, and the young stick around a bit more than a year, it's reasonable to have (at least) 1d6 young hanging around.  So I'd like to bump the number of young to 1-6.  (Note that large birds like ostriches and emus do stay with their parents about a year, and raptors don't mature for several years even if some leave the nest a bit earlier.)

Your proposed advancement is fine.


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## Cleon (Dec 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> If they lay 1d4 eggs per year, and the young stick around a bit more than a year, it's reasonable to have (at least) 1d6 young hanging around.  So I'd like to bump the number of young to 1-6.  (Note that large birds like ostriches and emus do stay with their parents about a year, and raptors don't mature for several years even if some leave the nest a bit earlier.)
> 
> Your proposed advancement is fine.




That's odd, I made a reply to this post before updating the *Boobrie Working Draft* but it seems to have vanished.

Anyhow, I'll try to remember what I said before and repost it.

Firstly, while large raptors can take several years to mature they spend most of that looking after themselves. A golden eagle, for example, only gets fed by its parents for a few month after its fledged and is then forced to fly off and fend for itself. The parents are raising a new clutch each year.

There are a few predatory real-life bird that hunt in families, i.e. some hornbills, but the AD&D Boobrie specifies that they have a #Encounter of 1-2 and are only encountered alone or in pairs, which definitely means they don't do the same.

Further, it's only the "Black Boobrie" that specifies the number of eggs/young as 1-4, the "Greater Boobrie" says that two young Boobries can occasionally be encountered (25%) by themselves, so it's _possible_ they only hatch 1-2 young - although personally I think that these are more likely to be immature birds that have formed a pair-bond but have yet to breed successfully.

In either case, I'm strongly in favour of having a "nest" with 1-4 noncombatant eggs or young and see no evidence in any of the AD&D entries that support an Org entry that has 1-6 combatworthy young Boobries, e.g.:

*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or nest (2 plus 1-4 eggs or non-combative young)


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2012)

Ehh, sure, no problem.  Same for both boobries, then?  

I think there's an extra ? in the black boobrie's skills entry (in the combat section).

Tactics: (the text can probably use some work)

Great boobries attack viciously from ambush, tearing their opponents with beak and claw.  A boobrie will often attempt to grab smaller prey with its beak and drag it into the marsh to finish it off.  Boobries can also puff up their feathers as a way of frightening their opponents, sometimes escaping from superior combatants in this way.

Black boobries buffet and trip their prey before biting. ...


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> Ehh, sure, no problem.  Same for both boobries, then?




Why do I get the suspicion I could have got my way without having to write seven paragraphs of text? 

Updating the *Boobrie Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> I think there's an extra ? in the black boobrie's skills entry (in the combat section).




Fixed!

I'd left that in there while we where to-ing and fro-ing about the skills but we don't need it anymore.



freyar said:


> Tactics: (the text can probably use some work)
> 
> Great boobries attack viciously from ambush, tearing their opponents with beak and claw.  A boobrie will often attempt to grab smaller prey with its beak and drag it into the marsh to finish it off.  Boobries can also puff up their feathers as a way of frightening their opponents, sometimes escaping from superior combatants in this way.




How's this:

Great boobries try to attack from ambush, tearing into prey with beak and claw.  A boobrie will sometimes grab a smaller opponent with its beak and drag them into the marsh to deal with.

Like most sensible predators, a great boobrie may flee from a losing fight. A threatened boobrie sometimes escapes from a superior enemy by puffing out its head-feathers and intimidating them.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2013)

Hey, that looks good to me.

I think the black boobrie would have somewhat different tactics.  First off, it's not as much of an ambusher, and it trips rather than grabs prey.  It's also intimidating, but not as much.  So maybe it tries to use Intimidate to set up easy attacks?


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## Cleon (Jan 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> Hey, that looks good to me.




Updating the *Boobrie Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> I think the black boobrie would have somewhat different tactics.  First off, it's not as much of an ambusher, and it trips rather than grabs prey.  It's also intimidating, but not as much.  So maybe it tries to use Intimidate to set up easy attacks?




Wouldn't it be more likely to try to knock its opponent prone with a wing buffet and then skewer them with its beak?


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2013)

Yes, exactly.  But we also gave it a small Intimidate bonus, so we should mention that somewhere.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2013)

freyar said:


> Yes, exactly.  But we also gave it a small Intimidate bonus, so we should mention that somewhere.




I'm starting to lose energy over here, I think I'll call it a day and relax with a beer and a Shaw Brothers movie.

Hopefully we can think of some Black Boobrie tactics tomorrow.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2013)

Hmmm.

Black boobries buffet their prey to the ground, then stab with their beaks.  Sometimes, they will puff their feathers out in an attempt to discourage larger prey, giving them a better chance at a meal.


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## Cleon (Jan 8, 2013)

freyar said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Black boobries buffet their prey to the ground, then stab with their beaks.  Sometimes, they will puff their feathers out in an attempt to discourage larger prey, giving them a better chance at a meal.




We said the Great Boobrie uses Intimidation to escape peril, but you want the weaker Black Boobrie to use it to threaten things that are likely to kill it? Wouldn't it make more sense to reuse the same feather puff text for both?

Something like...

Black boobries usually ambush prey by lunging out from reed beds. They typically try to wing-buffet their opponent to the ground, then stab them with their beaks. Like most sensible predators, a black boobrie may flee from a losing  fight. A threatened boobrie sometimes escapes from a superior enemy by  puffing out its head-feathers and intimidating them.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2013)

Well, that will work, but I was just aiming for something different.  We could also let the Great Boobrie use Intimidate to make some critters easier to kill.  But I'm really mostly happy to get these wrapped up.


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## Cleon (Jan 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> Well, that will work, but I was just aiming for something different.  We could also let the Great Boobrie use Intimidate to make some critters easier to kill.  But I'm really mostly happy to get these wrapped up.




Well I'm not sure why the two Boobrie species would use their feather-puffing that differently. If you want their tactics to apply it to "prey" as well as "threats" we can easily modify the last sentence.


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## freyar (Jan 17, 2013)

Eh, let's leave it the same for both.


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## Cleon (Jan 18, 2013)

freyar said:


> Eh, let's leave it the same for both.




So how about giving them both the following?:

Boobries sometimes puff out their head-feathers in an intimidating display that may demoralize prey or startle an enemy long enough for the bird to escape.


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2013)

Works for me.  Description and flavor next?


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## Cleon (Jan 22, 2013)

freyar said:


> Works for me.  Description and flavor next?




Updating the *Boobrie Working Draft*.

Any ideas for the "fluffy bits".


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2013)

Just noticed that the special attacks line for the great boobrie has "augmented bite" instead of "augmented critical."

Let's start with the description. 

Boobrie: This bird looks something like a cross between a roc and a stork.  Twelve feet tall, it towers over you and regards you over a serrated beak.

Black Boobrie: Something like a massive, darkly colored duck bursts out of the vegetation at the edge of the river, smashing you with wings and slashing with its beak.

Not great maybe, but that's a start.


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## Cleon (Jan 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> Just noticed that the special attacks line for the great boobrie has "augmented bite" instead of "augmented critical."




Guess I'd better change one or t'other to match. Do you prefer "bite" or "critical"?



freyar said:


> Let's start with the description.
> 
> Boobrie: This bird looks something like a cross between a roc and a stork.  Twelve feet tall, it towers over you and regards you over a serrated beak.
> 
> ...




Hmm, what's so "Roc like" about a Boobrie anyhow. Rocs are usually portrayed as resembling giant birds of prey, and a Boobrie is a water bird that looks more like a huge shoebill stork or a steroid-abusing heron, going by the illustrations and description.

Don't like the Black Boobrie description - they look like a *Loon*, not a duck, and I would rather it not specify what the bird is doing - it's best to leave that to the DM.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2013)

I prefer "critical."

The roc comment comes from the original monster, which I think just comes from the size.  Feel free to change that.

Hmmm.  I always thought loons were ducks!  They certainly look duck-like.  Well, I'll defer to your description.


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2013)

freyar said:


> I prefer "critical."




Critically updating the *Boobrie Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> The roc comment comes from the original monster, which I think just comes from the size.  Feel free to change that.




Yes, I know the Roc comparison's in the original text. Much of the problem is the Boobrie's Roc relationship morphs between editions.

In First Edition (_Monster Manual II_) it "resembles a smaller, marsh-dwelling relative of the roc".

In Second Edition (_Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix_) it "is a giant relative of the stork. Its origins are lost in mists of ancient time and arcane lore. Although some scholars suggest that there is a link between the boobrie and the roc, there seems to be little that the two species have in common (apart from their great size.)."

The 2E size comparison is pretty weak. An AD&D Roc is sixty feet or more in length - that's five times a Boobrie's 12 foot height. There are plenty of other oversized avians that are closer to a Boobrie in size, like a Phorusrhacos or Giant Eagle.

Both descriptions say a Boobrie's beak resembles a cross between an eagle and a heron's, with an eagle's hooked tip, but the 1E says it has "small, sharp teeth" and the 2E says its "sharp, serrated". 

Hmm, a 3E Roc has a crest of feathers on the back of its head in its _Monster Manual_ illustration, maybe those resemble a Boobrie's erectile neck-feathers?

Okay, how about this:

_A giant stork-like bird whose enormous saw-toothed beak combines the length of a heron's bill with the hooked tip of an eagle. Twice a man's height, it stands upright on long, slim legs whose splayed-out feet have equally elongated toes. The bird has a ruff on long feathers on the back of its neck, resembling the crest of some rocs._

A boobrie is a giant water bird found in hot swamps and marshes. It is often called a "Great Boobrie" to distinguish it from a smaller species of boobrie found in cooler climates, the "Black Boobrie". Scholars of nature are divided on whether a boobrie is a giant relative of the stork or a small marsh-dwelling cousin of the roc, but all agree this avian is a dangerous predator that will prey upon humanoids and their livestock.

The beak of a great boobrie is a terrible weapon with both sharply serrated edges and a number of small teeth along its sides. A boobrie's favorite prey are catfish but it is not fussy about its victims. Boobries often eat venomous creatures such as vipers or monstrous spiders, since these avians are immune to poison.

Boobries form mated pairs to breed and raise their young. Pairs of boobrie prefer to hunt and guard their nest together. They lay one or two oversized eggs that hatch very quickly. Young boobries are precocious and fast growing, and soon grow large enough to leave their parents. They often hunt with their sibling until they become adults and seek their own mate and territory.

A boobrie stands roughly 12 feet tall and weighs about 600 pounds.​


freyar said:


> Hmmm.  I always thought loons were ducks!  They certainly look duck-like.  Well, I'll defer to your description.




Well waterbirds can look pretty similar. There are some fish-eating diving ducks with narrow bills, such as the *Mergansers* that I suppose Black Boobries could resemble - they've got a headcrest of feathers they can erect.

I like the chisel beak and red eye of a Loon though.

Hmm...

_A waterbird about as big a human, completely black in color except for its blood-red eyes. Its streamlined body resembles that of a loon or diving duck, with a feather-crest on its head and neck like a merganser. The bird clearly hunts live prey, for its chisel-shaped beak has saw-toothed edges to hold struggling food. Its body stands half-upright on short legs that end in feet with four elongated toes connected by webbing._

A black boobrie is a dangerous waterbird of unusual size that dwell in temperate lakes and marshes. They mainly eat fish, but have been known to attack any creature smaller than themselves - such as lambs, calves, children or gnomes. Black boobries prefer to live in reed beds, which give them plenty of cover from which to lunge at prey and hide from enemies.

Black boobries form mated pairs in spring and build floating nests in which they lay from 1 to 4 eggs. These nests of woven vegetation can be of considerable size, and have been known to reach 20 feet in diameter. The nest contains the remains of the boobries' victims, which may include treasure. The young disperse in early summer as soon as they are large enough to fight for themselves.

A black boobrie stands roughly 6 feet tall and weighs about 75 pounds.​
That OK?


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2013)

Cleon said:


> Black boobries form mated pairs in spring and build floating nests in which they lay from 1 to 4 eggs. These nests of woven vegetation can be of considerable size, and have been known to reach 20 feet in diameter. The nest contains the remains of the boobries' victims, which may include treasure. The young disperse in early summer as soon as they are large enough to fight for themselves.




Oh dang it, there's no Treasure line in the stats!

How about:

*Boobrie Treasure:* None
*Black Boobrie Treasure:* 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items

Or shall we give 'em both incidental treasure?

I prefer the treasure-less Great Boobrie, since that sticks to the original entry. How about adding "When hunting food for their young, boobries tear their prey to pieces and carry the flesh back to the nest in their gullets. This habit means there is rarely any treasure among the remains of their victims in or around the nest."


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2013)

Why wouldn't there be treasure among the remains of the victims if it only carries off the flesh?  I guess I'd give them both incidental treasure, but it's not a major sticking point.


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## Cleon (Jan 31, 2013)

freyar said:


> Why wouldn't there be treasure among the remains of the victims if it only carries off the flesh?  I guess I'd give them both incidental treasure, but it's not a major sticking point.




There wouldn't be any incidental treasure among the remains in the nest because they'd be left with the remains scattered around the swamp whereever the Boobrie killed the victim and tore them apart.

If it carries the victim back more-or-less in one piece there's much more chance it'll still have a belt pouch or pack with something valuable in it.

Alternatively, we could grant the Black Boobrie a magpie-like instinct to collect shiny things to explain why it gathers treasure and its larger cousin doesn't.

Or we just give 'em both incidental treasure.

It depends whether we want to keep the original treasure types. If we do, the Great Boobrie is uninterested in treasure.

'Course we don't need to explain this if we don't want to, we could just cut out the explanation as to why it has (or has not) treasure and let the Treasure line do the talking.


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2013)

Hmmm, I thought incidental treasure could also be found in its typical hunting grounds.  Well, anyway, let's just go with "none" and "incidental" but not worry about explaining it.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, I thought incidental treasure could also be found in its typical hunting grounds.  Well, anyway, let's just go with "none" and "incidental" but not worry about explaining it.




So should I tweak the Black Boobrie's background info to "The nest contains the remains of the boobries' victims, and may also include treasure"?


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2013)

If you like, but I don't really mind much either way.


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## Cleon (Feb 8, 2013)

freyar said:


> If you like, but I don't really mind much either way.




Updating the *Boobrie Working Draft*.

So are we done with these?


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2013)

Looks like it!  Did we have anything "urgent" for this thread?


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2013)

freyar said:


> Looks like it!  Did we have anything "urgent" for this thread?




Nothing springs to mind.

We could do the Tren or Volheller, I suppose, although they're no more real than the Boobrie and have the additional disadvantage of being spectacularly uninteresting (as in "they rarely eat adventurers").

So, do you want to let this thread rest for a while?


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## Cleon (Jul 29, 2013)

Arise thread!

We need to update the Enworld conversion of the *Giant Snapping Turtle* to 3.5 since we're listing it as a summonable creature for the *Grandfather-of-all-the-Turtles*.

The Giant Snapping Turtle first appeared in the original 1977 _Monster Manual_ with the following stats:

* Turtle, Snapping, Giant*
*FREQUENCY:* _Uncommon_
*NO. APPEARING:* _1-4_
*ARMOR CLASS:* _0/5_
*MOVE:* _3”//2”_
*HIT DICE:* _10_
*% IN LAIR:* _0%_
*TREASURE TYPE:* _Nil_
*NO. OF ATTACKS:* _1_
*DAMAGE/ATTACK:* _6-24_
*SPECIAL ATTACKS:* _See below_
*SPECIAL DEFENSES:* _See below_
*MAGIC RESISTANCE:* _Standard_
*INTELLIGENCE:* _Non-_
*ALIGNMENT:* _Neutral_
*SIZE:* _L_
*PSIONIC ABILITY:* _Nil_
*Attack/Defense Modes:* _Nil_

*Turtle, Snapping, Giant: *Feared greatly for their voracious appetite and aggressiveness, giant snapping turtles are found in lakes and large rivers. They lurk near shore or on the bottom, as they do not swim quickly. They remain motionless, thus surprising on 1-4 (out of 6), and then shoot forth their long neck (up to 10' long) to grab their prey. The head and limbs of these monsters are armor class 5, but they can be withdrawn to offer armor class 2.

_Originally appeared in Monster Manual (1977)_.

The 2nd edition AD&D version is basically the same:

* Turtle, Snapping, Giant*
*CLIMATE/TERRAIN: *Lake or river
*FREQUENCY: *Uncommon
*ORGANIZATION: *Solitary
*ACTIVITY CYCLE: *Any
*DIET: *Omnivore
*INTELLIGENCE: *Non- (0)
*TREASURE: *Nil
*ALIGNMENT: *Neutral
*NO. APPEARING: *1-4
*ARMOR CLASS: *0/5
*MOVEMENT: *3, Sw 2
*HIT DICE: *10
*THAC0: *11
*NO. OF ATTACKS: *1
*DAMAGE/ATTACK: *6d4
*SPECIAL ATTACKS: *Surprise, jaws
*SPECIAL DEFENSES: *Hide limbs
*MAGIC RESISTANCE: *Nil
*SIZE: *H (40’ diam.)
*MORALE: *Elite (13-14)
*XP VALUE: *3,000

Feared greatly for their voracious appetite and aggressiveness, giant snapping turtles are found in large lakes and rivers. Many myths about lake monsters were born out of sightings of these relatively common freshwater creatures.

They lurk near shore or on the bottom, they do not swim quickly. There they remain motionless, causing a –3 penalty to opponents’ surprise rolls. They then shoot forth their long necks (up to ten feet away) to grab their prey. Once a victim is bitten (for 6d4 points of damage), he is invariably grabbed by the powerful jaws. Only a successful bend bars/lift gates roll frees one from the vicious mouth, as spells cannot be cast or weapons used at these times. Meanwhile, bite damage is automatic on each round while grabbed. When the victim goes unconscious, the giant snapping turtle throws back its head, gently tossing the victim into the air a few feet, then down into the open gullet of the beast.

The lightly plated heads and limbs of these monsters are AC 5 when extended, but the shell affords AC 0 protection to the body, and to the limbs if retracted.

_Originally appeared in MC5 Monstrous Compendium Greyhawk Appendix (1990)_.

There's also a BECMI version, with is considerable bigger:

*Giant Swamp Snapping Turtle*
*Armor Class:* 0
*Hit Dice:* 20
*Move:* 30’ (10’)
Swimming: 90’ (30’)
*Attacks:* 1 bite + special
*Damage:* 6-36
*No. Appearing:* 0 (1)
*Save As:* Fighter*:* 12
*Morale:* 10
*Treasure Type:* Nil
*Alignment:* Neutral
*XP Value:* 4,175

This ornery swamp creature can be mistaken for a dragon turtle at a glance, though it is smaller and actually has few dragon traits. Among other things, it does not collect treasure nor does it breathe anything.

However, like a purple worm, if its attack roll is 4 or more over what it needs to hit its target, or a 20 in any case, creatures of mansize or smaller are swallowed whole, taking 3-18 points of damage each round thereafter.

The main tactic of the giant snapping turtle is to wait by a main waterway, looking like a hummock of ground. As a boat passes, it snaps its head out of the shell and reaches as much as 30’ for one of the occupants of the boat. Once it has either taken a bite out of a victim or swallowed him whole, its head snaps back into the shell and it depends on its armored back for protection.

_Originally found in CM9 - Legacy of Blood (1987)._


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## Cleon (Jul 29, 2013)

To begin with, I don't think there's enough differences between the AD&D Giant Snapping Turtle and the BECMI Giant Snapping Swamp Turtle to justify us converting them as separate creatures. I think we should consider the BECMI Giant Snapper as an AD&D Giant Snapper that has advanced a size category, since that neatly fits its doubled HD.

While the BECMI "Swamp Snapper" has a Swallow Whole attack, the flavour text of the AD&D version says they swallow prey whole too - they just wait until their victims are unconscious.

For the stats, we should bear in mind the Stormwrack Snapping Turtle and the Enworld conversion of the Sea Turtle and Giant Snapping Turtle.

 Here's the relevant stats:

*Enworld Sea Turtle, Giant (3.5 Edition)*
Huge Animal 
*Hit Dice:* 8d8+48 (84 hp)
*Initiative:* -2
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), swim 40 ft.
*Armor Class:* 18 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+23
*Attack:* Bite +14 melee (2d6+13)
*Full Attack:* Bite +14 melee (2d6+13)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Capsize
*Special Qualities:* Fortification, hold breath, low-light vision, withdraw
*Saves:* Fort +12, Ref +4, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 28, Dex 7, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Spot +12, Swim +19
*Feats:* Endurance, Snatch, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Any aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 9-14 HD (Huge); 15-24 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Enworld Turtle, Giant Snapping (3.0 Edition)*
Gargantuan Beast
*Hit Dice:* 10d10+70 (125 hp)
*Initiative: *-2 Dex
*Speed:* 10 ft, swim 20 ft
*AC:* 20 (-4 size, -2 Dex, +16 natural)
*Attacks:* Bite +14 melee
*Damage:* Bite 2d8+11
*Face/Reach:* 40 ft by 40 ft/10 ft
*Special Attacks: *Improved grab
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +5, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 32, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8
*Skills: *Swim +21
*Climate/Terrain:* Any aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or band (2-4)
*Challenge Rating:* 9
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 11-19 HD (Gargantuan); 20-30 HD (Colossal)

*Stormwrack Snapping Turtle*
Small Animal
*Hit Dice:* 2d8+4 (13 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), swim 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (+1 size, –1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/–2
*Attack:* Bite +3 melee (1d4+1)
*Full Attack:* Bite +3 melee (1d4+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab
*Special Qualities:* Hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 12, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Spot +6, Swim +9
*Feats:* Improved Natural Armor*ᴮ*, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Temperate marshes
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3–4 HD (Small)
*Level Adjustment:* —


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## Cleon (Jul 29, 2013)

To begin with, the Giant Snapping Turtle is somewhat smaller than the Giant Sea Turtle. In AD&D the former has a 50 ft. shell diameter and the latter a 40 ft. shell diameter.

I think we should make the Enworld conversion Huge with a 12 ft to 20 ft. diameter shell so it keeps the same size comparison to the Enworld Giant Sea Turtle conversion.

We should give it a Swallow Whole attack as well as Improved Grab. If we set the swallow whole to 3 size categories, only an advanced Gargantuan turtle will be able to swallow human-sized victims, which'll allow us to limit that attack to a 20+ HD turtle in honor of the BECMI Giant Snapping Swamp Turtle.

We should also consider the stats of the Stormwrack Snapping Turtle. If we ignore the Improved Natural Armor bonus feat (which is completely pointless) and advance the turtle to Huge size, it comes out as:

*Stormwrack Snapping Turtle, Huge-ified
*Huge Animal
*Initiative:* –4
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), swim 20 ft.
*Attack:* Bite +?? melee (2d6+16)
*Armor Class:* 14 (-2 size, –4 Dex, +10 natural), touch 4, flat-footed 14
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with bite?)
*Abilities:* Str 32, Dex 2, Con 27, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4

Some of those numbers are pretty close to the Enworld Giant Sea Turtle and 3.0 Giant Snapper, but some look like they'll need tweaking.


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## freyar (Aug 8, 2013)

Your proposed size sounds fine.  Stick to 10HD?


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2013)

freyar said:


> Your proposed size sounds fine.  Stick to 10HD?




That was the plan.

Might as well begin a Working Draft.

Any preferences for the rest of the stats?

The AD&D Giant Snapper does 50% more damage with its bite than a Giant Sea Turtle, so we should consider giving it an impressive damage.

Maybe 4d6, the same as a Dragon Turtle?


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2013)

*Giant Snapping Turtle Working Draft*

*Turtle, Giant Snapping*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 10d8+70 (125 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 10 ft. (2 square), swim 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 25 (–2 size, –2 Dex, +19 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 25
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +7/+26
*Attack:* Bite +17 melee (4d6+16/19–20)
*Full Attack:* Bite +17 melee (4d6+16/19–20)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with bite)
*Special Attacks:* Capsize, improved grab, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Fortification, hold breath, low-light vision, withdraw
*Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +5, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 32, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 8
*Skills:* Hide –1* (+11 in swamps, +21 motionless), Spot +5, Listen +5, Swim +19
*Feats:* Alertness,  Improved Critical (bite), Improved  Initiative, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Temperate marshes
*Organization:* Solitary or cluster (2–4)
*Challenge Rating:* 7
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 11–19 HD (Huge); 20–30 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A massive turtle with a wickedly hooked beak. It's so big it resembles a small upturned ship_.

Enormous relatives of ordinary freshwater turtles, giant snapping  turtles are found in swamps, large lakes, and rivers. They are  aggressive and have a voracious appetite. Most prefer to hunt fish at  the bottom of whatever body of water they inhabit, but some will lurk  near shore paths and waterways and grab surface prey. Their necks are so  long they can easily snatch victims from off boats.

A typically giant snapping turtle measures about 30 feet from snout to  tail, with a shell up to 20 feet across, and weighs at least 15 tons.  The oldest and largest specimens can have shells 40 feet in diameter and  look like hummocks of ground when lurking in shallow water.

*COMBAT*
A giant snapping turtle will remain motionless until a suitable victim  wanders within reach, then shoots forth its long neck and tries to grab  the prospective meal. If a grabbed opponent is small enough to swallow  with a grapple check, the turtle immediately tries to gulp them down.  Opponents too large to be swiftly swallowed are bitten repeatedly until  they are rendered unconscious and can be swallowed whole or torn into  bite-sized pieces. The easiest way to avoid this fate is to flee the slow-moving turtle, although this will prove challenging for anyone the turtle's hooked its beak into.

These reptiles are exceedingly hardy fighters who are willing to face  severe injuries for a good meal. If a giant snapping turtle faces an  overpowering enemy, it tends to withdraw its shell rather than flee.

*Capsize (Ex):* A submerged giant snapping turtle that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long.

*Fortification (Ex):* Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a giant snapping turtle there is a 75% chance that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally, similar to the effect of armor enchanted with the Moderate Fortification quality. This chance increases to 100% when the turtle withdraws its appendages into its shell.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A giant snapping turtle can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 10 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning. For a typical giant snapping turtle, this is 250 rounds, or 25 minutes.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, the giant snapping turtle must hit with its bite attack. If it gets a hold, it automatically deals bite damage and can attempt to swallow the opponent.

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* A giant snapping turtle can try to swallow a grabbed opponent up to 3 sizes smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. It can also swallow a non-resisting creature 2 sizes smaller than itself as a full round action. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+16 points of crushing damage plus 2d8 points of acid damage per round from the giant snapping turtle's digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the giant snapping turtle’s gut (AC 20). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Huge giant snapping turtle's interior can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive, or 512 Fine opponents.

*Withdraw (Ex):* A giant snapping turtle can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the turtle cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains cover. Withdrawing into its shell also grants the turtle heavy fortification, giving it 100% resistance to critical hits.

*Skills:* A giant snapping turtle has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. A snapping turtle can use its Dexterity modifier or its Strength modifier on Swim checks. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A giant snapping turtle gains a +12 racial bonus  on Hide checks when in  swampy terrain. Further, a giant snapping turtle  can lie motionless in the water, gaining a +10 cover bonus on  Hide  checks.


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2013)

The physical ability scores from the 3.0 CC version don't look bad, actually, though I could bump the Con to 27 if you prefer.

A 4d6 bite sounds good!


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2013)

freyar said:


> The physical ability scores from the 3.0 CC version don't look bad, actually, though I could bump the Con to 27 if you prefer.




I don't mind either way.

Both the Enworld 3.0's Con 25 and the Huge-ified _Stormwrack _Snapper's Con 27 are higher than our Giant Sea Turtle conversion and the SRD Dragon Turtle.

Which did you prefer?

I guess it's better to follow the 3.0 conversion since this is supposed to be an 3.5 update.



freyar said:


> A 4d6 bite sounds good!




That we can agree on.

I'll update the  *Giant  Snapping Turtle Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2013)

Okay, we need to settle on an Armor Class. The original monster has a quite impressive AC 0, the same as an AD&D Dragon Turtle.

The SRD Dragon Turtle has AC 25, so I suppose our Giant Snapper ought to too.

That'd require a +19 natural armour bonus with the Working Draft's current Size and Dex.


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2013)

What Reach do you fancy for its bite attack. The AD&D Giant Snapper's "long neck" gives it a 10 foot reach while the BECMI version has a 30 foot reach.

I'm inclined to make it 20 ft., since (a) it's the average of the two, and (b) if we advance the Giant Snapper to 20 HD it'll become Gargantuan and have a 30 ft. bite reach like the BECMI version.


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2013)

I can agree to all that.  

Are fortification and withdraw just there from copy-paste, or do you want them both?  Given I've seen snapping turtles "clam up" often enough, I'd probably go for both.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2013)

freyar said:


> I can agree to all that.




Updating the  *Giant  Snapping Turtle Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Are fortification and withdraw just there from copy-paste, or do you want them both?  Given I've seen snapping turtles "clam up" often enough, I'd probably go for both.




I was planning to keep them. Snapping Turtles have tough shells, after all.


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## freyar (Sep 6, 2013)

Yeah, I'd keep them both also.

Put all the ranks in Spot?


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## Cleon (Sep 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I'd keep them both also.
> 
> Put all the ranks in Spot?




Well the _Stormwrack_ Snapping Turtle has all its skill ranks in Spot, but I'm not sure that a Snapping Turtle actually has that good eyesight.

Sea Turtles have good vision, but they live in clear ocean water. Snappers often live in swamps and mud-clouded lake bottoms. Don't they use smell, hearing, and "feel" to find prey and navigate around at least as much as eyesight?

I'm inclined to put 5 ranks in Spot and 8 in Listen, for total bonuses of +6 and +9 respectively.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2013)

Sure, that'll do.

You know, I was going to suggest Imp Crit for one of the feats, but I think I'd rather give it an Augmented Critical SA instead.  Snapping turtles have really nasty bites (can take your hand off easily)!  What do you think?


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> Sure, that'll do.




Updating the  *Giant  Snapping Turtle Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> You know, I was going to suggest Imp Crit for one of the feats, but I  think I'd rather give it an Augmented Critical SA instead.  Snapping  turtles have really nasty bites (can take your hand off easily)!  What  do you think?




I did toy with the idea of giving them Augmented Critical and/or the Sever Limb special attack we came up with for the *Nikt'oo* but decided against it in the end.

The _Stormwrack_ 3E Snapping Turtle doesn't have a high critical and the only special attacks earlier versions had is automatic bite damage, swallow whole, and surprise.

Dang it, I forgot about the Surprise.

We should either give them a really hefty racial bonus to Hide in swamps (possibly with a "bonus when partially submerged" like the SRD Crocodile) or a Camouflage ability like we've given Big Daddy Turtle.

For the feats, I'd be content with just Improved Critical, likely with Weapon Focus (bite) [like the _Stormwrack_  Snapping Turtle], Endurance [like our CC Giant Sea Turtle] and Improved  Initiative [to represent their "shoot out neck quickly" trick] for the  other feats.

Blind-Fight might suit them too, for hunting in murky swamp waters, but it seems surplus to requirements.


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2013)

I like the Crocodile-like Hide bonus, I think.  And those feats appeal.

I like the advancement you list that ends with Gargantuan at 30HD.

CR 7 seems about right.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> I like the Crocodile-like Hide bonus, I think.




OK, we'll need some numbers then.

Let's see. If we use:

*A giant snapping turtle gains a +12 racial bonus on Hide checks when in swampy terrain. Further, a giant snapping turtle can lie in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks. 

That works out as Hide -10* (+2 in swamps, +12 submerged)

Hmm, that's still significantly worse than an SRD Crocodile when they ought to be better or about the same based on their comparative AD&D surprise abilities.



freyar said:


> And those feats appeal.
> 
> I like the advancement you list that ends with Gargantuan at 30HD.
> 
> CR 7 seems about right.




Updating the  *Giant  Snapping Turtle Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2013)

Cleon said:


> *A giant snapping turtle gains a +12 racial bonus on Hide checks when in swampy terrain. Further, a giant snapping turtle can lie in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.
> 
> That works out as Hide -10* (+2 in swamps, +12 submerged)




OK, let's try some reverse-engineering.

In 1E AD&D, the Giant Snapper has a surprise of 1-4 on d6 and the Crocodile has a surprise of 1-3 on d6.

In 2E AD&D the Giant Snapper has -3 surprise while the Crocodile has -2.

So in both systems the Giant Snapper is about 1/6th _better_ at surprising than a Crocodile.

A crocodile has Hide +7* (+11 in water, +21 when "lying in water"). To be better than that a giant Snapper needs better values than that.

(By the way, the SRD Croc is missing a skill point somewhere. Its skills add up to 5 ranks while its HD give it 6.)

I suppose we could increase the racial bonus to Hide or the cover bonus for lying in water.

We could also reassign some of the skill ranks.

Come to think of it, a Giant Crocodile's Hide +1* might be a better comparison.

So, how about swapping the Snapper's Endurance for Alertness, then giving it the same +5 Listen and Spot as the SRD Giant Crocodile and putting the rest of its skill points in Hide:

*Skills:* Hide -1* (+11 in swamps, +21 motionless), Spot +5, Listen +5, Swim +19
*Feats:* Alertness,  Improved Critical (bite), Improved  Initiative, Weapon Focus (bite)

*A giant snapping turtle gains a +12 racial bonus on Hide checks when in  swampy terrain. Further, a giant snapping turtle can lie motionless in the water, gaining a +10 cover bonus on  Hide checks.


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2013)

That'll work.  You've got those suspect color tags in post 1512, though.  Don't know why EN World is doing that to you so much.


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## Cleon (Oct 18, 2013)

freyar said:


> That'll work.  You've got those suspect color tags in post 1512, though.  Don't know why EN World is doing that to you so much.




It seems to be happening a lot more often recently. Maybe they've "updated" the software.

Updating the  *Giant  Snapping Turtle Working Draft*.

That seems to be it apart from the flavour.


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## Cleon (Oct 18, 2013)

freyar said:


> That'll work.  You've got those suspect color tags in post 1512, though.  Don't know why EN World is doing that to you so much.




I've fixed the problematic color tags.


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2013)

I've noticed the color issues with a few other people. It may be something to do with pasting in stuff, don't know.

Description: A very large turtle with a wicked beak.

Short, but sweet.


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> I've noticed the color issues with a few other  people. It may be something to do with pasting in stuff, don't know.




Yes, it seems to happen when moving text around.



freyar said:


> Description: A very large turtle with a wicked beak.
> 
> Short, but sweet.




_A massive turtle with a wickedly hooked beak. It's so big it resembles a small upturned ship_.

Enormous relatives of ordinary freshwater turtles, giant snapping turtles are found in swamps, large lakes, and rivers. They are aggressive and have a voracious appetite. Most prefer to hunt fish at the bottom of whatever body of water they inhabit, but some will lurk near shore paths and waterways and grab surface prey. Their necks are so long they can easily snatch victims from off boats.

A typically giant snapping turtle measures about 30 feet from snout to tail, with a shell up to 20 feet across, and weighs at least 15 tons. The oldest and largest specimens can have shells 40 feet in diameter and look like hummocks of ground when lurking in shallow water.

*COMBAT*
A giant snapping turtle will remain motionless until a suitable victim wanders within reach, then shoots forth its long neck and tries to grab the prospective meal. If a grabbed opponent is small enough to swallow with a grapple check, the turtle immediately tries to gulp them down. Opponents too large to be swiftly swallowed are bitten repeatedly until they are rendered unconscious and can be swallowed whole or torn into bite-sized pieces. The easiest way to avoid this fate is to flee the slow-moving turtle, although this will prove challenging for anyone the turtle's hooked its beak into.

These reptiles are exceedingly hardy fighters who are willing to face severe injuries for a good meal. If a giant snapping turtle faces an overpowering enemy, it tends to withdraw its shell rather than flee.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2013)

Heh, you seem to have gotten an autolink to EN World posts about the Fate system! 

In any case, that's excellent, and I'm all for it.  Just a copyright credit, and it's done, I guess.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> Heh, you seem to have gotten an autolink to EN World posts about the Fate system!
> 
> In any case, that's excellent, and I'm all for it.  Just a copyright credit, and it's done, I guess.




Updating the  *Giant  Snapping Turtle Working Draft*.

So we're doing the "Gila Monster" Banded Lizard next on this thread, right?


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## Cleon (Nov 8, 2013)

Cleon said:


> Updating the  *Giant  Snapping Turtle Working Draft*.
> 
> So we're doing the "Gila Monster" Banded Lizard next on this thread, right?




Since no one's said nay, I'll launch the Banded Monster conversion.

We actually have some AD&D stats to work with, from an article in _Dragon #237_ - _“Dragon’s Bestiary - Venomous!”_ by Kevin Melka (July 1997).


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## Cleon (Nov 8, 2013)

*Gila Monster Original Stats*

*Lizard, poisonous*


*Gila* *Monster**Climate/Terrain: *Temperate Forest/Savannahs*Frequency: *Uncommon*Organization: *Solitary*Activity Cycle: *Nocturnal*Diet: *Carnivorous*Intelligence: *Animal (1)*Treasure Type: *N*Alignment: *Neutral*No. Appearing: *1*Armor Class: *8 day/4 night*Movement: *6 day/9 night*Hit Dice: *2+3*THAC0: *19*No. of Attacks: *1*Damage/Attack: *2-7 (1d6+1)*Special Attacks: *Poison, latching bite*Special Defenses: *Nil*Magic Resistance: *Nil*Size: *S (2-3’ long)*Morale: *Average (9)*XP Value:*270
 *
Gila Monster (heloderma suspectum)*
   One of the few poisonous lizards, the gila monster is a slow, sluggish creature with a terrible, painful bite. Though small in stature, the gila monster is incredibly strong for its size.

This lizard has a massive head, tiny legs, and a short, stout tail. It has brightly colored, bead-like scales that form gaudy patterns across its body. The gila’s scales do not overlap like those of a snake, and are rough in texture.

*Combat:* The jaws of the gila monster are extremely strong, and it can hold its tight grip for up to 15 minutes. An Open Doors roll is needed to remove the creature — or its death. The gila monster has 35 poisonous teeth that it uses to introduce lethal doses of venom. The teeth are not hollow, but grooved. Venom flows from sacks in the mouth, down the grooves, and into the victim.

The longer the gila monster is attached, the more chance there is for a victim to become poisoned. Following an initial saving throw vs. poison a penalty of -1 is applied for every round the gila monster remains attached, saving each round as more venom is introduced. The poison of the gila monster is hemotoxic, elevating the victim’s blood pressure.

Failing a saving throw means the venom has entered the bloodstream, causing extreme pain followed by sweating, vomiting swelling, and an unbearable ringing in the ears. Symptoms become gradually worse until death in 1-2 turns.

*Habitat:* The gila monster is found in temperate zones ranging from savannahs to light jungle regions. This creature is shy by nature, and does not attack humanoid creatures unless provoked. They seek shelter under rocks or in small burrows, which it often takes over from other animals.

*Ecology:* Gila monsters are nocturnal and very sluggish during the day. They feed on birds, eggs, and small mammals. The gila monster can go for months without food, living on fat stored in its tail.

_Originally from Dragon #237 (1997)_.

Note that it should have "_Heloderma suspectum_" for the taxonomic name, not "heloderma suspectum".


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## Cleon (Nov 8, 2013)

*Giant Banded Lizard Original Stats*



Cleon said:


> *Lizard, poisonous*




We've also got the Giant Banded Lizard from Sandstorm to work with:

*Giant Banded Lizard*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 10d8+60 (105 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 10 ft., swim 10 ft.
*Armor Class:* 13 (–2 size, +5 natural), touch 8, flatfooted 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +7/+24
*Attack:* Bite +14 melee (2d8+9)
*Full Attack:* Bite +14 melee (2d8+9) and 2 claws +9 melee (2d6+4 plus poison)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, poison
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +13. Ref +3, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 28, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 5
*Skills:* Climb +12, Listen +7, Spot +4
*Feats:* Alertness, Cleave, Improved Overrun, Power Attack
*Environment:* Warm deserts
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 7
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 11–14 HD (Huge); 15–30 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Combat*

*Improved Grab (Ex): *To use this ability, a giant banded lizard must hit a creature of any size with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and attempts to deal bite damage each round thereafter.

*Poison (Ex): *Injury, Fortitude DC 21, initial and secondary damage 2d4 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based.

_Originally from Sandstorm (2005)_.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 14, 2013)

Okay, to get things moving around here I've done a Homebrew which I'll post as a "Working Draft".

Feedback and Criticisms are as welcome as they've always been.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2013)

*Banded Lizard Working Draft*

*Lizard, Banded*
Tiny Animal
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+4 (5 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares), climb 10 ft.
*Armor Class:* 14 (+2 size, –1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–9 or –3* (see improved grab)
*Attack:* Bite +1 melee (1d4–1)
*Full Attack:* Bite +1 melee (1d4–1)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, poison, venomous chewing
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 8, Dex 9, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Climb +7, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +1* (track by scent +5)
*Feats:* Alertness, Toughness *ᴮ, Track ᴮ*
*Environment:* Warm deserts
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 1/2
*Advancement:* 2-3 HD (Small)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A thick-bodied little lizard with a short, fat tail and flat head. Its covered in rounded scales that resemble beads, colored in alternating dark and light bands._

The statistics presented here describe small, venomous lizards of perhaps a foot or two in length, such as a gila monster or beaded lizard. These slow-moving reptiles use their keen sense of smell to track down food and specialize in eating eggs.

These lizards do not have venom-injecting fangs like a viper snake, but have grooved "venom teeth" at the back of their mouth. They can only envenom opponents if they chew upon them to work poison into the bite wound.

A banded lizard is colored black or dull brown with bands of a lighter color – usually white, yellow or orange. They sometimes have reddish or pinkish scales on their heads.

A typical banded lizard is roughly a foot long and weighs about a pound. The largest species can reach two or three feet in length and can weigh up to 10 pounds.

*Combat*
These sluggish creatures only attack in self defense, but once they bite they hang on tenaciously and use venomous chewing to attempt to poison their opponent.

*Improved Grab (Ex): *To use this ability, a banded lizard must hit a creature of any size with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can use its venomous chewing attack each round thereafter.

A banded lizard's jaws have an astonishingly strong grip, giving it a +6 racial bonus to grapple checks to keep hold of or damage an opponent.

*Poison (Ex):* Injury (venomous chewing), Fortitude DC 11; initial damage 1d3 Str plus agonizing pain (–4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks) for 2d6 minutes; secondary damage 1d3 Str plus agonizing pain for 1d4+1 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Venomous Chewing (Ex):* On a successful grapple check (including a +6 racial bonus), a banded lizard automatically deals 1d4–1 points of damage and affects its opponent with its poison. For each successive round of venomous chewing, the banded lizard adds a +1 circumstance bonus to the DC of its poison (max +4 DC).

*Skills:* Banded lizards have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.

* Banded lizards have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

*Note:* Originally appeared as "Lizard, Poisonous - Gila Monster". Name changed to match the "Giant Banded Lizard" in _Sandstorm_.

_Originally appeared in Dragon #237 (1997)._


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2013)

*Design Notes
*Much of the stats come from the Horned Lizard in _Sandstorm_. The agonizing venom is based on the poison we came up with for our conversion of the *Farrowdale Mouse*, with the addition of Strength damage to match the Strength damage caused by the Giant Banded Lizard in _Sandstorm_.


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## freyar (Nov 27, 2013)

That works for me overall, but I note that the original critter had 2+3 HD.  What about bumping to 2HD?


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## Cleon (Nov 27, 2013)

freyar said:


> That works for me overall, but I note that the original critter had 2+3 HD.  What about bumping to 2HD?




Yes, I know. I deliberately cut the basic HD because a typical real-world *Gila Monster* is only about a foot long (roughly the same size as the Tiny 1 HD Horned Lizard in _Sandstorm_), which made 2 HD seem excessive.

Also, notice that the original critter is also Small size and 2 to 3 feet long, which is a better match to the Gila monster's bigger cousin the *Beaded Lizard*.

It seemed a more accurate match to their real-world counterparts to have the Banded Lizard start out Tiny and advance to Small size, to covered both "ordinary" and "jumbo" size specimens.

I've been wondering about giving them Advancement of 2-3 HD instead of just 2 HD. What do you think of the notion?


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## Cleon (Nov 27, 2013)

freyar said:


> That works for me overall, but I note that the original critter had 2+3 HD.  What about bumping to 2HD?




If you're keen to refer to the +3 hp we could always give it Toughness as a bonus feat.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2013)

Yeah, that seems sensible.  Let's have advancement go up to 3HD.

I'll go along with Toughness(B), as well.

Did you finish these up already?


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2013)

freyar said:


> Yeah, that seems sensible.  Let's have advancement go up to 3HD.
> 
> I'll go along with Toughness(B), as well.




Updating *Banded Lizard Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Did you finish these up already?




I think it's good-to-go. Well, except I suppose I'd better change the "coloured" in the description to the gauche transatlantic spelling...


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2013)

The original MC "Lizard, Poisonous" included the *Rough-Skinned Newt* as well as the Gila Monster.

Shall we convert that as well?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2014)

Cleon said:


> I think it's good-to-go. Well, except I suppose I'd better change the "coloured" in the description to the gauche transatlantic spelling...




Gauche, but not archaic. 



Cleon said:


> The original MC "Lizard, Poisonous" included the *Rough-Skinned Newt* as well as the Gila Monster.
> 
> Shall we convert that as well?




Sure, though maybe it's just a plain SRD lizard with one SQ added.


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## Cleon (Jan 8, 2014)

freyar said:


> Sure, though maybe it's just a plain SRD lizard with one SQ added.




I'll post the original AD&D stats in a while, but it oughtn't to take very long.

We basically just need to figure out the effects of the poison, the rest of it can just be a standard Tiny reptile with the Amphibious trait added on (as it is a newt).


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2014)

Whenever you're ready...


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## Cleon (Jan 27, 2014)

freyar said:


> Whenever you're ready...




Well since you asked...

*Rough-skinned newt*
*Climate/Terrain:* Temperate Savannahs
*Frequency:* Uncommon
*Organization:* Solitary
*Activity Cycle:* Diurnal
*Diet:* Carnivorous
*Intelligence:* Animal (1)
*Treasure Type:* N
*Alignment:* Neutral
*No. Appearing:* 1-2
*Armor Class:* 7
*Movement:* 3
*Hit Dice:* 1-1 (1-2 hps)
*THAC0:* 20
*No. of Attacks:* 1
*Damage/Attack:* Nil
*Special Attacks:* Poison
*Special Defenses:* Nil
*Magic Resistance:* Nil
*Size:* T (2-4” long)
*Morale:* Average (9)
*XP Value:* 65

*Rough-Skinned Newt (taricha granulosa)*
This newt is often mistaken for a small lizard, salamander, or other non-dangerous creature. The rough-skinned newt has warty skin, four clawless toes, and a tail that is longer than its body.

*Combat:* The rough-skinned newt is non-aggressive to all but its natural prey, and it’s small teeth could barely scratch a normal human’s skin. What makes the newt dangerous is its touch. The creature’s embryos, skin, and eggs contain a powerful poison. This poison is tetrodotoxic, a contact poison that acts on the nervous system of the victim to prevent nerve cell functions. The poison is a milky substance secreted in the tail region. One newt contains enough poison to kill a grown man unless he makes a saving throw vs. poison.

Failing a save against the newts poison causes numbness and weakness throughout the body within 1-4 rounds, incapacitating the victim. Unconsciousness occurs 1-2 rounds later, with death occurring in 1-4 turns. There is no known natural antidote to this poison (making the herbalism proficiency useless against it); it is curable only by magic.

*Habitat:* Males prefer wooded areas, while females remain near the water, where they lay their eggs.

*Ecology:* Like many amphibians this newt can regenerate amputated parts such as a tail, leg, or even portions of their head. They feed on worms, slugs, snails, insects, and frogs. Unlike other newts, the females lay only one egg at a time, rather than large masses.

_Originally from Dragon Magazine #237_


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2014)

Hmm, sounds like contact (and ingested) poison.  As for the effect, I guess I'd model it with a fair amount of Dex poison (initial and secondary), with the victim dying if reduced to Dex 0.  What do you think?


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2014)

freyar said:


> Hmm, sounds like contact (and ingested) poison.  As for the effect, I guess I'd model it with a fair amount of Dex poison (initial and secondary), with the victim dying if reduced to Dex 0.  What do you think?




Since tetrodotoxin is the same toxin as pufferfish use, we could use or modify the poison special attack of a pufferfish.

...well, we could if the pufferfish *had* any 3E stats, but it appears to be one of the few deadly real-world monsters that doesn't have D&D stats.

There is a giant version of one though, the *Giant Porcupine Fish*, which has the following venom:



			
				CC said:
			
		

> *Poison (Ex):* A porcupine fish's spines and many of its internal organs are poisonous. The save DCs are Constitution-based.
> 
> _Spine poison:_ Injury (spines), Fortitude DC 12, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con.
> 
> _Organ poison:_ Ingestion, Fortitude DC 12, initial and secondary damage 2d6 Con.




That looks modifiable for the Newt.

We could do Dex damage plus Dex = 0 = death, but I was thinking something more like Dex = 0 = suffocation (with the usual Con saves to avoid death), since that's the mechanism it kills by.

In either case, the D&D version exaggerates the contact potency of the toxin - the poison is only deadly if swallowed, and people who touch the newts just experience irritation.


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## freyar (Feb 14, 2014)

Hmmm.

What about Dex damage, but Dex=0 only equals death if the poison is ingested?  I feel like there may be a precedent for different effects based on delivery method before (though maybe not).


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2014)

freyar said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> What about Dex damage, but Dex=0 only equals death if the poison is ingested?  I feel like there may be a precedent for different effects based on delivery method before (though maybe not).




Well I was going to include separate contact and ingested stats for the poison, like we did for the Porcupine Fish, so that's no big deal.

I'd be OK with death at Dex=0, but I'd like a Con or Fort save to avoid it (and just be paralyzed 'til the poison wears off), since that's closer to the real-world poison.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2014)

How about this?

How about the following?

Poison (Ex): A rough-skinned newt's skin and many of its internal organs are poisonous. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Touch poison: Contact, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Dex.

Organ poison: Ingestion, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 2d6 Dex.  If the victim's Dexterity reaches 0, the victim cannot breath for 2? minutes, which may cause suffocation.


This allows Con saves to avoid death, but it's pretty bad for characters without pretty high Con.  We could change it to 1-1/2 minutes.


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## Cleon (Mar 5, 2014)

freyar said:


> How about this?
> 
> How about the following?
> 
> ...




That looks OK to me, although I'd like to lower the touch poison damage a bit (to 1d4, 1d3 Dex or maybe even less), and make the duration of the "cannot breath" a dice roll of some kind.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2014)

I wonder if we should also reduce the ingested poison's damage while reducing the touch poison's damage.  We could do 1d4 Dex on touch poison and 2d4 Dex for organ poison, though that on average only gets 10 points of Dex (max 16) with both initial and secondary damage.  I guess that could potentially kill quite a few characters.

Suffocation duration is negotiable, but I decided to go with something a bit shorter.  Let's try this version:

Poison (Ex): A rough-skinned newt's skin and many of its internal organs are poisonous. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Touch poison: Contact, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Dex.

Organ poison: Ingestion, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 2d4 Dex. If the victim's Dexterity reaches 0, the victim cannot breath for 2d10 rounds, which may cause suffocation.


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## Cleon (Mar 21, 2014)

freyar said:


> I wonder if we should also reduce the ingested poison's damage while reducing the touch poison's damage.  We could do 1d4 Dex on touch poison and 2d4 Dex for organ poison, though that on average only gets 10 points of Dex (max 16) with both initial and secondary damage.  I guess that could potentially kill quite a few characters.
> 
> Suffocation duration is negotiable, but I decided to go with something a bit shorter.  Let's try this version:
> 
> ...




If we want a lethal organ poison I think something like a Wyvern's 2d6/2d6 would work better.

2d4/2d4 is enough to kill roughly a half of Con 10 creatures _if_ they fail two saving throws - that seems pretty good odds.

EDIT: We could make the primary and secondary damage different, I guess. Maybe 1d8/2d8 or 2d6/1d6?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2014)

Remember, it's Dex damage, not Con damage.

I'm willing to bump the Dex damage a bit, though 2d6/2d6 (like a wyvern) might be a bit much for the target CR.  Let's say that would be my maximum.  So 2d4/2d4, 2d6/1d6, or 2d6/2d6, as you like.


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## Cleon (Mar 30, 2014)

freyar said:


> Remember, it's Dex damage, not Con damage.
> 
> I'm willing to bump the Dex damage a bit, though 2d6/2d6 (like a wyvern) might be a bit much for the target CR.  Let's say that would be my maximum.  So 2d4/2d4, 2d6/1d6, or 2d6/2d6, as you like.




Well I did some rummaging around the internet and they are certainly very poisonous, but the only mention of people dying from their poison I could find involved various drunkards swallowing the newt whole. Contrariwise, I found one mention of someone who swallowed *five* newts and survived.

 If a 3E character swallowed a creature that produced ingested poison, do they take a dose of the ingested poison each round until the creature is dead or do they just take a single dose upon "ingesting" the newt? If they take multiple doses, that would mean we could give the newt a more modest poison damage and it'd still be potentially lethal.


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2014)

Uhh, isn't the usual rule 1 dose of poison per bite for ingested stuff?

I think I'd like to set the damage and paralysis time so that some people can die from it, but maybe not too many.  Maybe make the Dex damage 1d4/2d4 and we're there?


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2014)

freyar said:


> Uhh, isn't the usual rule 1 dose of poison per bite for ingested stuff?




Yes it is. I was musing whether if a creature uses Swallow Whole on an opponent with a poison defense, do they take a dose of poison each time they damage the swallowed creature? If they do, then I'd be fine having a more modest poison damage.



freyar said:


> I think I'd like to set the damage and paralysis time so that some  people can die from it, but maybe not too many.  Maybe make the Dex  damage 1d4/2d4 and we're there?




That's only going to kill a typical humanoid with a below-average Con, though. It needs a wider range to be a lethal threat. How about using a single big dice for the secondary damage - e.g. 1d6/1d10, 1d6/1d12?


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## freyar (May 2, 2014)

We could increase the paralysis time, maybe.  I do agree that the Dex damage will only paralyze below average Dex, but I'm ok with that, I think.  Hmm.  How about 1d6/1d10 Dex damage to paralyze more people but still only 2d10 rounds paralysis?

I'm going to guess that the usual interpretation of the rules does not include a dose of poison every round of Swallow Whole damage.  And most PCs don't eat via Swallow Whole anyway.


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## Cleon (May 4, 2014)

freyar said:


> We could increase the paralysis time, maybe.  I do agree that the Dex damage will only paralyze below average Dex, but I'm ok with that, I think.  Hmm.  How about 1d6/1d10 Dex damage to paralyze more people but still only 2d10 rounds paralysis?
> 
> I'm going to guess that the usual interpretation of the rules does not include a dose of poison every round of Swallow Whole damage.  And most PCs don't eat via Swallow Whole anyway.




I guess that Dex damage is OK, although the "suffocation" duration is likely too short, since they only need to start making Con checks to avoid fatal asphyxiation after the "hold your breath" period of 2 rounds per point of Con.

Something like 2d10+10 rounds would work better, since it offers some chance of an average Con character dying.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2014)

2d10+10 rounds will work for me.


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2014)

freyar said:


> 2d10+10 rounds will work for me.




Okay, so are we now agreed on:

*Poison (Ex):* A rough-skinned newt's skin and many of its internal organs are poisonous. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

_Touch poison:_ Contact, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Dex.

_Organ poison:_ Ingestion, Fortitude DC X, initial damage 1d6 Dex and secondary damage 1d10 Dex. If the victim's Dexterity reaches 0, the victim cannot breath  for 2d10+10 rounds, which may cause suffocation.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2014)

I'll go along with that.  Slap it into a regular lizard, add Aquatic and Amphibious, and call it a day?


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2014)

freyar said:


> I'll go along with that.  Slap it into a regular lizard, add Aquatic and Amphibious, and call it a day?




We don't need Aquatic do we? The SRD *Toad* just has Amphibious, after all.

Anyhow, I'll post a Working Draft.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2014)

*Rough-Skinned Newt Working Draft*

*Newt, Rough-Skinned*
Diminutive Animal
*Hit Dice:* ¼d8 (1 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares), climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.
*Armor Class:* 14 (+4 size), touch 14, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-17
*Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d3-5 plus skin poison)
*Full Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d3-5 plus skin poison)
*Space/Reach:* 1 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Poison
*Special Qualities:* Amphibious, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 1, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Balance +8, Climb +8, Hide +14, Listen +3, Move Silently +2, Spot +3, Swim +8
*Feats:* Stealthy, Weapon Finesseᴮ
*Environment:* Temperate plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 1/3
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A tiny brownish salamander about as long as a human hand. It has granular skin and a bright yellow-orange belly._

Rough-skinned newts are poisonous amphibians. The adults spend most of  their time on dry land, but usually live close to the freshwater ponds  and streams they use for breeding. These newts eat insect and worms much  smaller than themselves.

A typical rough-skinned newt is up to six inches long (half of which is tail) and weighs less than an ounce.

*COMBAT*
A rough-skinned newt might bite an attacker in self defense but is more  likely to hide. It mostly relies on its poison to protect itself.

* Amphibious (Ex):* Rough-skinned newts can breathe  both air and water, although they rarely travel very far from water.

*Poison (Ex):* A rough-skinned newt's skin and many of its internal organs are poisonous. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

_Skin poison:_ Contact (including bite attack or grapple), Fortitude DC 10, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Dex.

_Organ poison:_ Ingestion, Fortitude DC 10, initial damage 1d6 Dex  and secondary damage 1d10 Dex. If the victim's Dexterity reaches 0, the  victim cannot breath  for 2d10+10 rounds, which may cause suffocation.

*Skills:* Rough-skinned newts have a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks. They also have a +8 racial bonus on Climb or Swim checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb or Swim checks, even if rushed or threatened. Rough-skinned newts use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb checks. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2014)

Cleon said:


> *Newt, Rough-Skinned*
> *Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
> *Environment:* Temperate forests
> *Challenge Rating:* 1/3?




Okay, I added a Swim speed (since they're aquatic) and changed the SRD Lizard's climate to Temperate (since rough-skinned newts live in such conditions).

We need to increase the CR from the SRD Lizard's 1/6 to account for the poison. I put in 1/3 like the Tiny Viper, since they seemed roughly equivalent, but would be fine with CR 1/2 if you prefer that.

Do we want to tweak the stats any further?

I'm wondering about cutting the speeds to 15 ft. like the SRD Tiny viper, since newts are generally slower than lizards, but can't think of any other tweaks I'm that keen on.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2014)

The toad also doesn't list what "amphibious" means as a SQ.  From the subtypes description, it's apparent that the Amphibious SQ just lets (some) Aquatic critters breathe air.  So I think we should just add the Aquatic subtype.

Reducing the speed is ok with me.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2014)

freyar said:


> The toad also doesn't list what "amphibious" means as a SQ.  From the subtypes description, it's apparent that the Amphibious SQ just lets (some) Aquatic critters breathe air.  So I think we should just add the Aquatic subtype.




Well the fact that the SRD Toad has it proves that the Amphibious special quality doesn't require the Aquatic subtype.

How about we use the *Merfolk's* description of that special ability, since it makes no mention of the Aquatic trait?

* Amphibious (Ex):* Merfolk Rough-skinned newts can breathe  both air and water, although they rarely travel more than a few feet  from the water’s edge.

Looking for precedents, I couldn't find any Frog, Toad or Newt with the Aquatic subtype in the Creature Catalog, SRD or Oriental Adventures (the latter source contains a few Giant Frogs & Toads).

Then again, the SRD Toad was the only Frog, Toad or Newt I could find with the Amphibious SQ. 

The closest to an Aquatic + Amphibious amphibian-like creature I could find was the Froghemoth from _Dungeon #128_ - but that's hardly a good precedent for a real world animal!



freyar said:


> Reducing the speed is ok with me.




I'll update the *Rough-Skinned Newt Working Draft* with that.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2014)

The problem is that the SRD isn't really self-consistent with the Amphibious SQ, and people have followed that lead.  (It's almost like the various people working on monsters at WotC didn't talk to each other.)  But I suppose it doesn't really matter.  The stats all look about right.


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2014)

freyar said:


> The problem is that the SRD isn't really self-consistent with the Amphibious SQ, and people have followed that lead.  (It's almost like the various people working on monsters at WotC didn't talk to each other.)  But I suppose it doesn't really matter.  The stats all look about right.




Well even someone nigh-infallible like I am occasionally lapses from self-consistency. 

(I only do it to keep you on your toes, of course, ).

Since I strongly prefer the SRD toad approach and you don't seem to be too bothered, I think I'll add the Merfolk format Amphibious SQ to it just for the sake of clarity...

...Updating the *Rough-Skinned Newt Working Draft*.

I'm not quite decided on the Environment. The original has "Temperate Savannahs" while in real life they also like woodlands.

How about making it "Temperate plains and forests"?

Apart from that, we just need some flavour text. What think you of...

_A tiny brownish salamander about as long as a human hand. It has granular skin and a bright yellow-orange belly._

Rough-skinned newts are poisonous amphibians. The adults spend most of their time on dry land, but usually live close to the freshwater ponds and streams they use for breeding. These newts eat insect and worms much smaller than themselves.

A typical rough-skinned newt is up to six inches long (half of which is tail) and weighs less than an ounce.

*COMBAT*
A rough-skinned newt might bite an attacker in self defense but is more likely to hide. It mostly relies on its poison to protect itself.


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2014)

Cleon said:


> A typical rough-skinned newt is up to six inches long (half of which is tail) and weighs less than an ounce.




Hmm, that size is in the right ballpark according to their *real life measurements*, but it is much too small for a Tiny creature. The SRD Lizard is "perhaps a foot or two in length", not six inches like a rough-skinned newt.

I'm thinking we should downsize it to Diminutive and cut the Dex by 4 so the AC still matches - in my experience newts and salamanders are pretty slow compared to lizards, so Dex 15 is likely too much anyway.

Reducing the Hit Dice by 1 size category to 1/4 d8 would also match the "1-2 hps" of the original creature.

Also, apparently *if one bites you* the contact can be enough for its "touch poison" to apply, so I fancy adding that to the attack line.

If we include the different Environment I suggested in my previous post, that'd make the following changes:

*Newt, Rough-Skinned*
Diminutive Animal
*Hit Dice:* ¼d8 (1 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares), climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.
*Armor Class:* 14 (+4 size), touch 14, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-17
*Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d3-5 plus contact poison)
*Full Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d3-5 plus contact poison)
*Space/Reach:* 1 ft./0 ft.
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 1, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Balance +8, Climb +8, Hide +14, Listen +3, Move Silently +2, Spot +3, Swim +8
*Environment:* Temperate plains and forests


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2014)

Those changes are fine, but I think it would make more sense to allow the touch poison to be "injury or contact" and make the bite damage "(1d3-5 plus touch poison)."


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## Cleon (Jul 5, 2014)

freyar said:


> Those changes are fine, but I think it would make more sense to allow the touch poison to be "injury or contact" and make the bite damage "(1d3-5 plus touch poison)."




I'll agree changing the bite to "plus touch poison" makes sense, since that's what we called the poison.

Actually, upon reflection, I'd prefer changing the name to "skin poison", since "touch" has some specific meanings in the 3E rule set and the animal exudes it from its skin.

We don't need to add "injury or contact" to that poison's description, as *contact poisons* can already be delivered via weapon attacks, so it's superfluous.

How about putting "contact (including bite attack or grapple)" in the description?


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## Cleon (Jul 5, 2014)

freyar said:


> Those changes are fine, but I think it would make more sense to allow the touch poison to be "injury or contact" and make the bite damage "(1d3-5 plus touch poison)."




I'll update the *Rough-Skinned Newt Working Draft* with the size reduction, plus "redding in" the poison bits.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2014)

This all looks fine to me.  De-red and call it done.


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2014)

freyar said:


> This all looks fine to me.  De-red and call it done.




De-redding the *Rough-Skinned Newt Working Draft*.

It done!


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## freyar (Jul 27, 2014)

Very good. Do we have anything pending in one of our batches for this thread?


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## Cleon (Aug 3, 2014)

freyar said:


> Very good. Do we have anything pending in one of our batches for this thread?




Our *Batches to Come* list doesn't have any real world monsters unless you count the Cryptozoological creatures on the Sea Monsters list as qualifying.

However, we've already working on that batch in the Dragon Magazine thread with our Great Orm conversion-in-progress.


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2014)

We may as well rest this thread for now, in that case.


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2014)

freyar said:


> We may as well rest this thread for now, in that case.




That's fine by me.


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