# Shards of the Silve Flame -- OOC thread



## drothgery (Oct 2, 2005)

This thread is for any non-trivial out-of-character discussion, and/or off-topic messages to the players in the game.

First order of business is figuring out how your characters know each other, how long you've been working together, and how that relationship got started. Also how you know Lord Reverend Alistair ir'Irandi (at whose bequest you're meeting).

_Edit:_ The new Rogue's Gallery thread (for stats) is at
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2621110

_Edit:_ The in-character thread (for playing the game) is at
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2658762


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## Anax (Oct 2, 2005)

My working model for how Hariel knows the Lord Reverend ir'Irandi (by the way--what is the proper mode of address?  His Reverence?  His Grace?  Lord Reverend?) depends a lot on what kinds of projects he's been involved in in the past.  Based on the short description we have, I've presumed that he might have been involved in charity works in the city of Flamekeep.  I've also presumed that he might have been involved in the government of Flamekeep, or of Thrane, at some point.

Working with the most optimistic situation, I believe Hariel was a bit of a street rat in one of the poorer areas of Flamekeep when she was young.  The Lord Reverend was involved in some way (anything from simply lending his name to the enterprise to direct involvement) in a project to provide help to the needy in these areas, and particularly, in a project to educate the poor youth.  Hariel turned out to be one of the brighter students, and ended up joining the Flamekeep constabulary when she came of age.

The next step is somewhat more tenuous: I feel that the Lord Reverend is a man with a mind for seemingly trivial detail.  What I imagine is that Hariel discovered some corruption in the guard, and when she attempted to call attention to it, she was framed for the crimes herself--the actual corrupt guards assuming that because she was from one of the poorest and most crime-ridden parts of town, nobody would give her case a second look.  By chance, the Lord Reverend was in a position to hear about the case, and recalled Hariel's name and circumstances.  Based on what he knew about Hariel (either first-hand, if he was involved in the charity work directly, or second-hand, if he received reports of the work), he had doubts that Hariel was guilty.  After some amount of work (on the part of Hariel and those she worked with directly, who had come to respect her a great deal), and with the Lord Reverend's interest (which may have not been directly obvious) to ensure that someone was listening, Hariel was cleared--and now doubly indebted to a man (possibly a man she had never actually met.)

After she was cleared, Hariel was promoted from the equivalent of a beat cop to a detective.  Her keen intellect and her willingness to take direct action to bring the truth to light spoke well for her.  Not to mention the fact that people were now willing to overlook her low origins... and that she perhaps had patronage (either people believed she did, or she did publicly, or she did quietly without truly knowing it.)

Naturally, when an agent of that man delivered a message requesting a meeting, and perhaps mentioning the Lord Reverend's interest in her recent case, Hariel was happy to oblige.  And that lead to him suggesting some things she might look into for him.



I like the background of having some public recognition in this way.  Should be an interesting mix of respect, admiration, and "who does she think she is, anyway?" sorts of attitudes from different groups of people.  But I'm not super attached to this backstory if it doesn't fit the Lord Reverend's style.  Either of the two situations (the charity, or the quiet patronage in the case of corruption) would do alone, as would anything similar that would make Hariel indebted to the Lord Reverend--and that would cause her to believe he's a man worthy of respect.


As for how our characters know each other, it seems to me that the easiest way would be for us to know each other through the Lord Reverend.  It's possible that some of us have been brought together by him to work with each other over the last few years.  Perhaps all of us have worked together with some of the others, but not all together at once.

Once we get things penciled in in a little bit more detail, perhaps we could learn something about what we've done for the Lord Reverend in the past?  I've restricted my speculation to how Hariel came to know him, but I don't want to speculate into what he would have asked her to do.  (Although the thought strikes me, depending on how the Lord Reverend operates, that Hariel may have been set on the trail of the corrupt guards by the L.R. without knowing about it.)

Anyway, that's enough for me, now.  I look forward to what other people have to suggest.


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## drothgery (Oct 2, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> My working model for how Hariel knows the Lord Reverend ir'Irandi (by the way--what is the proper mode of address?  His Reverence?  His Grace?  Lord Reverend?) depends a lot on what kinds of projects he's been involved in in the past.  Based on the short description we have, I've presumed that he might have been involved in charity works in the city of Flamekeep.  I've also presumed that he might have been involved in the government of Flamekeep, or of Thrane, at some point.




As to what to call him -- either Lord Alistair in a personal context (his surviving older brother being Lord ir'Indari), or Reverend ir'Indari in a Church context.

For much of his adult life, he divided his time about evenly between his ancestral holdings near the Karrnath border, and Flamekeep, where he has held several positions over time. A few years ago, some allies of High Cardinal Krozen arranged to have him made Theocrat of his home district, mostly to get him out of Flamekeep.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 2, 2005)

Found the new thread.  I'll post a little bit more after I wake up.


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## Anax (Oct 2, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> For much of his adult life, he divided his time about evenly between his ancestral holdings near the Karrnath border, and Flamekeep, where he has held several positions over time. A few years ago, some allies of High Cardinal Krozen arranged to have him made Theocrat of his home district, mostly to get him out of Flamekeep.




Hmm.  It sounds like my backstory for Hariel may be workable, then?  Let me know if you have any suggestions for the rougher edges.

It also sounds like Hariel should know Reverend ir'Irandi from before he was shuffled off to be kept out of Flamekeep.

That raises the question of military background--it's unclear to me how likely a young woman of sound mind and fit body would be to avoid military service if she was of an appropriate age before two years ago.  (Well, to be clear: it seems unlikely that she would.)  Should I factor some form of compulsory military service into my character background?

(Left brain says: How do you maintain a hundred-year war without having everybody able to serve in the military serve?  Right brain says: How do you maintain a country if you have everybody able to serve in the military serve?  Middle brain says: Forget about it for now and go have breakfast.)


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## drothgery (Oct 2, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> That raises the question of military background--it's unclear to me how likely a young woman of sound mind and fit body would be to avoid military service if she was of an appropriate age before two years ago.  (Well, to be clear: it seems unlikely that she would.)  Should I factor some form of compulsory military service into my character background?




Sexism? Also, as per below, I don't think there was a lot of mass conscription.



			
				Anax said:
			
		

> (Left brain says: How do you maintain a hundred-year war without having everybody able to serve in the military serve?  Right brain says: How do you maintain a country if you have everybody able to serve in the military serve?  Middle brain says: Forget about it for now and go have breakfast.)




[Dave playing with Eberron history here; what follows is non-cannon, and only applicable to this particular Eberron game, unless WotC and/or Kieth Baker have written something similar that I haven't seen or don't remember, or write someithing like this in the future]

There were a hundred years of war. There weren't a hundred years of high-intensity combat. Some nations went decades where they weren't involved in any open war. Besides, D&D mechanics tend to bias armed forces even more in the direction of small and highly skilled than historical feudal Europe did, and Eberron geography and demographics exaggerates this even further.


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## drothgery (Oct 2, 2005)

Just as an FYI to everyone, I'll be on a business trip next Wednesday & Thursday, so I'm not planning on the game really starting before next week (assuming everyone's got their character sheets and backgrounds together by then).


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## ShaggySpellsword (Oct 2, 2005)

I could move Oswin's history from Thaliost to Flamekeep.  This would put poor Oswin as living on the streets of Flamekeep and possibly taking part in the same get the poor off the streets program as Hariel initially.  As she enters her guard service, Oswin could easily be going into his training/missions for the Shadowbane squads of Thrane, developing his inquisitive and infiltration skills, etc.  Oswin gets out, and is assigned to the inquisitive side of the guard with an old familiar face as a partner...Hariel.  The ensuing next year or so becomes the Eberron equivalent of Dutch and Claudette on the Shield.  Lord Alistair then pulls strings to get us working for him.

How would that work for a start?


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## stonegod (Oct 2, 2005)

I think Saalin's background works mostly as is; he only arrived on the Flamekeep-scene in the last two years. That'll probably be when he met up w/ the gang; still working on those details.

As for a question: An preferred format for the rogue's gallery thread? I was planning to use th new statblock format unless something is more preferable.


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## Anax (Oct 2, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> There were a hundred years of war. There weren't a hundred years of high-intensity combat. ...




Okay--that's likely how I'd reconcile things, too, but it's always good to check.  



			
				ShaggySpellsword said:
			
		

> I could move Oswin's history from Thaliost to Flamekeep. ...




Wow.  I didn't look at everybody's post in detail, so I didn't spot that our backgrounds were so similar in many ways.  Hmm.  I need to run, but my first pass thought about this is that it might be more interesting to keep things somewhat more independent.  Oswin's background suggests that the organization he's a part of is more involved in the occult side of things--and is more of an elite Church force than the general run-of-the-mill guard.  I alluded before to some possible tension between the ordinary guard who are at work every day in the streets of Flamekeep, and know what kind of compromises people need to make to survive, and the more elite guards who (when they do end up in the slums for some reason, perhaps coming after an arcane offender of some sort) are more likely to enforce the word of the law.

What if Oswin did have a similar background as far as what got him started, but in Thaliost instead of Flamekeep, and ending up in a martial church order rather than the guard.  That implies (to me) that he's got a much firmer grounding in special situations (you mentioned cults of the Dragon Below, possessing fiends, and spies in your original post), whereas Hariel's experiences (at least, before Lord Alistair) have been related almost exclusively to mundane matters.

Based on that, I can see Hariel and Oswin striking sparks when they first meet.  Because they have similar backgrounds, but significantly different careers, they kept almost, but not *quite* understanding each other for a while.  Eventually, however, they saw enough of the other's baileywick to gain some serious respect.  Oswin certainly has a way with matters religious and arcane that Hariel's training had not prepared her for.  Hariel, on the other hand, has a greater degree of insight into the criminal mind uninfluenced by those matters.

And I'll stop there.  What do you think?  If you want to go with a more connected background, Shaggy, I can certainly work with other possibilities.  (Heck--could even do the childhood friendship, then went different ways for training, and when they met again similar sparks to what I'm supposing above, before any work for Lord Sinclair.)

And: don't let me bulldoze you into anything.  I tend to just spew when I get thoughts running through my head, but I'm very open to alternatives.


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## drothgery (Oct 2, 2005)

stonegod said:
			
		

> As for a question: An preferred format for the rogue's gallery thread?




Not really. I just want a format that makes it obvious where everything comes from (i.e. skills should be broken out into ranks, ability score bonuses, synergies, special abilities, and anything from equipment; anything that's not from the PHB or DMG should be attributed).


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## Anax (Oct 3, 2005)

Hmm.  Rules question for the DM: (I suppose it's a bit silly to ask here, but oh, well.)

I've always treated synergy with multiple skills as stacking.  But when I was reading the description for synergy on Diplomacy the other day, it struck me that you could interpret it as "if you have at least five ranks in any of the following skills (Bluff, Sense Motive), you get a +2 bonus" and not "if you have five ranks in Bluff you get a +2 bonus, and if you have five ranks in Sense Motive you get a separate +2 bonus, giving a total +4 bonus if you have both."

A simple +2 shouldn't be huge, but I'd like a judgement on that so I get everything done up proper.


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## drothgery (Oct 3, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> Hmm.  Rules question for the DM: (I suppose it's a bit silly to ask here, but oh, well.)
> 
> I've always treated synergy with multiple skills as stacking.  But when I was reading the description for synergy on Diplomacy the other day, it struck me that you could interpret it as "if you have at least five ranks in any of the following skills (Bluff, Sense Motive), you get a +2 bonus" and not "if you have five ranks in Bluff you get a +2 bonus, and if you have five ranks in Sense Motive you get a separate +2 bonus, giving a total +4 bonus if you have both."
> 
> A simple +2 shouldn't be huge, but I'd like a judgement on that so I get everything done up proper.




I think multiple synergy bonuses aren't supposed to stack. I thought otherwise until recently, but I'm pretty sure a recent spin of the FAQ came down on the side of synergies not stacking.


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## Anax (Oct 3, 2005)

Okay, noted.  Thanks!


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## stonegod (Oct 3, 2005)

ShaggySpellsword said:
			
		

> I could move Oswin's history from Thaliost to Flamekeep.  This would put poor Oswin as living on the streets of Flamekeep and possibly taking part in the same get the poor off the streets program as Hariel initially.




Another thing to consider: Saalin would have been established in Thaliost a _long_ time and thus could have found/known/advised/run-across/etc Oswin there before Oswin became part of the higher-ups (Saalin would have had some Church contacts through his Flamekeep contact Lycia before moving on and joining the Order of the Pure after the War).

As for how Saalin made contact with Alistair, Alistair could have heard of him through Saalin's (human elder w/ regards to Allistair's probable age) contact and confidant Lycia---they may have even met before he left for Flamekeep and Alistair could have been involved in his joining the Order of the Pure. Since most of Saalin's life has been outside of Thrane mainstream (he is an ex-member of an enemy military force, let us not forget), his outcast nature could appeal to Alistair's need/desire for more "colorful" agents.


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## ShaggySpellsword (Oct 3, 2005)

As for stacking skills, the WoTC Core FAQ (Pg. 12, left column, second section) in the Skills chapter specifically says that synergy bonuses are unnamed and therefore stack.

The new variant PHB, Iron Heroes from Malhavoc press uses a slightly different skill systems, and doesn't allow stacking synergy bonuses.

That is just RAW.  If DM says otherwise, then that is, after all, the rule.


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## drothgery (Oct 3, 2005)

ShaggySpellsword said:
			
		

> As for stacking skills, the WoTC Core Errata (Pg. 12, left column, second section) in the Skills chapter specifically says that synergy bonuses are unnamed and therefore stack.




Okay, that's the FAQ, not the errata, and I guess I misread something.


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## ShaggySpellsword (Oct 3, 2005)

I fixed my statement.  Oops.  I meant FAQ.  I promise, I wasn't trying to cause a fight or anything...like I said, DM is the boss and I'll follow in line.


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## drothgery (Oct 3, 2005)

ShaggySpellsword said:
			
		

> I fixed my statement.  Oops.  I meant FAQ.  I promise, I wasn't trying to cause a fight or anything...like I said, DM is the boss and I'll follow in line.




Hey, if I make a mistake on the rules, call me on it.

I probably won't backtrack and change things in a combat scene (unless I made an error that results in a PC death or something like that), but I will update things going forward.


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## ShaggySpellsword (Oct 3, 2005)

I have a confession to make:

I am a recovering Rules Lawyer, doing what I can to avoid annoying rules lawyering in favor of just having fun.  If I get annoying on rules stuff, call me on it.  I'm trying to quit.


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## drothgery (Oct 4, 2005)

stonegod said:
			
		

> As for how Saalin made contact with Alistair, Alistair could have heard of him through Saalin's (human elder w/ regards to Allistair's probable age)




FYI - Lord Alistair is in his early 50s; he may well have meant Saalin's mentor when he was younger.


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## stonegod (Oct 4, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> FYI - Lord Alistair is in his early 50s; he may well have meant Saalin's mentor when he was younger.




I'll put Lycia about 70 when she died, making her Alistair's parent's generation or so (assuming standard 20-year differences).


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 4, 2005)

Does anyone have any ideas how to integrate my character into the rest of yours?  (All I've come up with is her just being an acquaintance to the rest of all.)


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## SelcSilverhand (Oct 4, 2005)

Drue will have spent many years working for the church but rarely visiting any of the church holdings. His career as an informant requires him to spend much of his time in the field finding contacts, infiltrating heretical groups, and studying unusual events. While he may not get home much, he creates regular reports describing the latest goings on in the land. His reports may have crossed Lord Reverend Alistar's desk or brought to his attention be other departments when something comes up he may be interested in. As a man interested in fine detail, he may have appreciated Drue's straight forward, fact filled field reports. Whatever his assignment, the Lord Reverend knows that this agent of the church will provide an accurate and complete report of all events that take place. 

As for his relationship to the others, Drue makes it his business to know about the people he will be working with before he even meets them. Gathering some background information, he will have gleaned a few facts about the history, behavior, and loyalty of his fellows.


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## Anax (Oct 5, 2005)

Woo!  I’ve added a portrait to my character in the rogue’s gallery.  Also made a couple of small corrections to errors I found in the sheet.  (I forgot to add the masterwork enhancement bonus to the hand crossbow when showing my work, and failed to include the +1 competence bonus to Reflex saves from Grace +1 anywhere.)


Brother Shatterstone: That’s a tough one.  Your character is quite unique, and also really rather creepy when I start thinking about it too much.    

First question: how much of your character’s background should be know to us?  (From what I read before, I assume pretty much everybody in the household knows what happened, but folks from outside wouldn’t unless someone told them.  At which point... well, they might get kind of creeped out, but we can figure something out there.)

After that: I could certainly imagine Hariel and your character becoming friends if Hariel has spent much time around the area.  I mentioned somewhere that Hariel might be trying to learn to ride a bit: she never had the need until recently, since she’d spent her whole life in Flamekeep.  If your character does any riding (which seems reasonable for someone brought up as a bit of an aristocrat in Thrane), perhaps she offered to spend some time teaching Hariel to ride a bit, and they became friends during that time.

That’s the best I can come up with, anyway.  

Edit: P.S. Does it irritate anybody else that the mithral shirt is pretty much impossible to beat for price and performance for anybody willing to wear armor who has a Dexterity score above +1?  (I tried so so very hard to come up with a good reason to use one of the medium-armor-made-from-a-material-that-makes-it-act-as-light-armor type things, but it just made for armor that cost more, had an armor check penalty, and a lower max Dex.  Then I tried to use studded leather instead, except that a mithral chain shirt is _better_ than _+1 studded leather_ in every dimension... _and_ it costs less.  Whee.)


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## drothgery (Oct 5, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> Edit: P.S. Does it irritate anybody else that the mithral shirt is pretty much impossible to beat for price and performance for anybody willing to wear armor who has a Dexterity score above +1?  (I tried so so very hard to come up with a good reason to use one of the medium-armor-made-from-a-material-that-makes-it-act-as-light-armor type things, but it just made for armor that cost more, had an armor check penalty, and a lower max Dex.  Then I tried to use studded leather instead, except that a mithral chain shirt is _better_ than _+1 studded leather_ in every dimension... _and_ it costs less.  Whee.)




Well, the only way there's not going to be one two clearly "best" armors is if one introduces things like weapon type vs. armor modifiers, or there's a lot of mechanically similar armors available at the same prices.

So expect almost any armor you find in treasure to be a mithril shirt or full plate


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## Shalimar (Oct 5, 2005)

It gets even worse if you compare it to Eberron materialsthat are highly prized for their protective qualities, like a Darkleaf armor.  The Darkleafs more expensive, and still has armor check penalties.  Assuming you were willing to eat the -2 ACP just for coolness, you can get a magical mithril shirt, with special abilities like glammered, and have it be under that 5000gp cap, but the Darkleaf armor with the same qualities, is over the cap, and inferior to boot.  It does boggle the mind a bit.

Dave, I'll take you up on your offer of lurkitude (that a word?), I hope this game lasts as long and does as well as the WoT game did.


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## Anax (Oct 5, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Well, the only way there's not going to be one two clearly "best" armors is if one introduces things like weapon type vs. armor modifiers, or there's a lot of mechanically similar armors available at the same prices.
> 
> So expect almost any armor you find in treasure to be a mithril shirt or full plate




Yeah, pretty much.  It really just irks me that the medium armors don't have a place, except on (stupid) NPCs, and in the low levels when you have a heavy armor character who can't afford heavy armor yet.  I'd think that there'd at least be a "good" medium armor like there is a good light and a good heavy.



			
				shalimar said:
			
		

> It gets even worse if you compare it to Eberron materials that are highly prized for their protective qualities, like a Darkleaf armor. The Darkleafs more expensive, and still has armor check penalties. Assuming you were willing to eat the -2 ACP just for coolness, you can get a magical mithril shirt, with special abilities like glammered, and have it be under that 5000gp cap, but the Darkleaf armor with the same qualities, is over the cap, and inferior to boot. It does boggle the mind a bit.




Yeah.  I was looking at that.  It does have significant utility for druids, of course, which I assume is why it exists.  I did note with some surprise that neither leafweave nor darkleaf armors are described as being automatically masterwork, like mithral and adamantine are.  That gives you another one point ACP reduction (if it's not an error: I checked for errata, but found none.)  This makes the darkleaf breastplate mechanically interesting to mid-Dex characters at higher levels, when the price isn't an issue.  (If you're not going to break the +4 Dex boundary, you get a further +1 AC in exchange for -1 ACP, without pumping up the +x armor price as far.)

Still, I think these are clearly intended for druids.  And, of course, it seems a little weird to imagine folk-not-of-the-forest to be wearing them.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 5, 2005)

First, Mithral Breastplate’s –1 ACP is rather edible…   (You would need a DEX greater than 24 for a Mithral chain shirt to be better.)



			
				Anax said:
			
		

> Brother Shatterstone: That’s a tough one.  Your character is quite unique, and also really rather creepy when I start thinking about it too much.




Oh.  I thought you liked the concept...  :\ 



			
				Anax said:
			
		

> First question: how much of your character’s background should be know to us?  (From what I read before, I assume pretty much everybody in the household knows what happened, but folks from outside wouldn’t unless someone told them.  At which point... well, they might get kind of creeped out, but we can figure something out there.)




They would/should have no clue. 



			
				Anax said:
			
		

> After that: I could certainly imagine Hariel and your character becoming friends if Hariel has spent much time around the area.  I mentioned somewhere that Hariel might be trying to learn to ride a bit:




Well, that would be a cross class skill for my character...  I can give it some thought though.


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## Anax (Oct 5, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> First, Mithral Breastplate’s –1 ACP is rather edible…   (You would need a DEX greater than 24 for a Mithral chain shirt to be better.)




True.  This is pretty much equivalent to the wood version we were talking about (except the special wood is cheaper.)  The real trouble with the mithral breastplate is that going from 1100gp to 4200gp for an additional +1 armor is cost prohibitive until quite late.  Still, it's worth considering, I will admit.  (And, of course, elven chain has high "ooo, pretty picture" points...



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Oh.  I thought you liked the concept...  :\
> They would/should have no clue.




Oh, I think the concept is great!  It's just that the scenario is... creepy.  Having the characters have no idea helps a lot, actually, because it means I don't have to resolve Hariel's ooky feelings over the matter before play.    (Not only because it's hard to figure out _how_ to resolve them, but also because it'll be more interesting on-screen.)



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well, that would be a cross class skill for my character...  I can give it some thought though.




Heh.  Well, Hariel hasn't put any skill points in Ride yet, and it's possible that this is more just the basics: things that really don't belong in the skill rank system in the first place.  Your character would know something about riding, but very likely wouldn't have experience riding in combat, or show jumping, or whatever.  Likewise, Hariel's not aiming for that level of proficiency at all.

In short: if you think that's a fair reason to know each other, we can go with that--Ride ranks or no Ride ranks.  If Hariel doesn't know anything about your character's history, then this scenario (befriending Lord Alistair's daughter) is perfectly in character for her.


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## Anax (Oct 7, 2005)

From the rogue's gallery thread:



			
				stonegod said:
			
		

> For all the aforementioned spells, he will cast on the defensive if needed (and, taking 10, will always succeed assuming no penalties).




How do you take 10 on Concentration checks for casting defensively?  I don't think I've seen that feature anywhere (although I don't have Complete Divine, so I don't know what _blessing of bahamut_ does.)


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## drothgery (Oct 8, 2005)

Just in case anyone hasn't noticed, I'm back; I'm reviewing character sheets now.


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## stonegod (Oct 8, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> From the rogue's gallery thread:
> How do you take 10 on Concentration checks for casting defensively?  I don't think I've seen that feature anywhere (although I don't have Complete Divine, so I don't know what _blessing of bahamut_ does.)




Curses! I know that had to be too good to be true. Forgot you can't take ten in stressful situations (which is the only time you would every be taking 10 on Concentration).


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## stonegod (Oct 8, 2005)

_Blessing of Bahamut_ is a Pal 3 spell that gives on DR 10/magic for 1 round/level. Also turns your skin platinum as a non-lethal side effect.


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## stonegod (Oct 8, 2005)

*Summary: How everyone knows (or doesn't know) everyone*

Just to summarize, if I follow all the posts correctly:

  - Hariel has a passing aquaintance with "Xxxx" (I assume that is a placeholder) and may have crossed paths with Oswin during their professional careers. Hariel met the Lord Reverend through her guardwork (and may have been involved in getting her there in the first place).
  - Saalin may have crossed paths with Oswin while he was in Thailos (assuming he was still born there). Saalin and the Lord Reverened became aquainted through a mutual contact (Lycia).
  - It is unclear to me how Oswin made contact with Alistair, unless it was through his mentor Berrik or during his training (or afterward missions). He may have crossed paths with Hariel or Saalin relatively easily.
  - Drue has no recorded mention of contact with the other characters, though is itinerant nature fits will with Brother Dain's (they could have crossed paths while the former was investigating a Church and the latter was documenting it). It is possible he may have heard of/met Saalin after hearing of a "Aundarian-traitor" giving succor to both sides in Thailost. It is in Drue's character to background-check people he will potentially work with.
  - Like Drue's, Brother Dain's background has no specific mention of the other character or Alistair. I mentioned a possibility of Drue/Dain possibilty crossing paths. A similar investigation by Dain (possibily looking at the estabilishment of the first Flamist Church in Thaliost) could explain a potential meeting with Saalin.
  - "Xxxxx", being the most sheltered, has the least potential for knowing the PCs direclty unless she met them while they visited or heard of them through her uncle. She, however, has the best contact with our patron.

That summarize everything effectively?


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## Anax (Oct 8, 2005)

That sounds about right by my reckoning of what’s been said.  Note that if we’ve all been involved with work for Lord Alistair before (which it sounds to me like drothgery is aiming for?) there’s the potential that we’ve all made at least a passing acquaintance with each other by now.  I’ve mentioned Xxxx (and yes, that’s a placeholder) and Oswin because I have ideas of interactions past “People I once met in the hall after talking with Lord Alistair”.

I get the feeling that drothgery wants to avoid initial intra-party distrust, and some reason for us to be familiar with each others’ abilities.  (I myself find that this is always a good thing to aim for.)  On the other hand, I think that there’s more leeway here than there might be in a more traditional setup...  If we’re all acquainted with Lord Alistair, we already have reason to trust individuals he might introduce us to.

There is, of course, always the chance for secret backgrounds to come up during the course of play—and I think it’s clear that this is going to happen in this campaign, somewhere along the line.  But that’s different from “several adventurers meet in a tavern, instantly become bosom friends, and rush off to slay evil together.”    That’s one reason I absolutely want to have some personal history and like for Xxxx, too.

Whee.  Anyway, I’d love to add more detail to my acquaintance with anybody else.  I’m just a lot less sure of what folks besides Oswin and Xxxx are like—and I feel like I’ve probably already trod on enough toes in suggesting Hari’s past interactions with those two as it is.  (Like I said before, I tend to be a bit pushy with my ideas, so please do push back if you don’t like something I’ve suggested.)


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## ShaggySpellsword (Oct 8, 2005)

Okay-Oswin is going to be from Thaliost, so there would probably have been some situation where he had a chance to meet and even work with Saalin.  Oswin's mentor, Berrik, was working with Allistair in the project that gave simple poor streetrats military snd religious training-Oswin first met Lord Allistair and Hariel there.  After completing his training Oswin has worked around much of Thrane doing a variety of different things for the church-Inquisitive, Counter-Spy, and Holy Warrior.  In his work he has had to develop contacts that know what is what in different cities, and have helped him with certain tasks in the past, for the good of the church.  Lord Allistair has taken on the role of giving Oz missions in the past, and giving him some aid when his other mission bring him to Flamekeep.  Some of the other PCs could have been past contacts/aid working with me in my handful of years since becoming an agent for the Theocracy.  Any takers?


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## drothgery (Oct 8, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone has informed me that he won't be playing in this game. I think I'm going to stick with five PCs for now.


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## wabinder (Oct 8, 2005)

Dave, as for how Brother Dain can be connected to Alistair...  You mentioned that he has split most of his adult life between Flamekeep and his ancestral holdings near the Thrane/Karrnath border.  Would anything in or near his ancestral holdings have been potential targets during the war?  I ask because I see two possible scenarios for how Dain met him...

1) One of the times that Dain temporarily dropped his research to come to aid in the defence of a church or monastery under attack, it could have turned out that the property either belonged to Alistair or was located near some of his property.  If Alistair himself was there at the time, a lone monk coming to give aid likely would have been brought to his attention.  If he was not there at the time, a report mentioning Dain's aid still might have been given to him.

Either way, Alistair might have decided that he wanted to meet this monk and offer his thanks.  And since he has ancestral holdings near the border and carries rank, he would be a prime interview candidate for Dain's research.  I imagine that someone with Alistair's background and rank would be intrigued by a monk who is attempting to objectively document border disputes, yet who drops everything to come to the defence of one particular side of the War.  Dain is a proud citizen of Thrane and a tithing member of the Church (something else that would probably pique Alistair's interest).  As such, it is quite a contrast for him to state that he is being objective in his research.  I am sure that some portion of this would appeal to Alistair's eccentric nature.

2) Dain may have become aware of one of Alistair's periodic visits to his ancestral holdings.  Given the man's rank and background, Dain would become quite interested in getting his view of the border disputes for his research.  He would petition for an audience, and presumably it would be granted.  From there, this would proceed pretty much the same as the above, just without the battle at the beginning.

Once they got to know one another, Alistair would likely come to view Brother Dain as someone who can be counted on.  He is a loyal Thranish citizen, and he pays a hefty tithe to the Church.  From their discussions on his research, it would become apparent that Dain can take care of himself and get done what needs to be done.  And of course, I am certain that Alistair would have also done his own background check, and would know Dain's complete history.

Either of the above would help take care of how Dain knows Alistair.  But I am at a bit of a loss as to how Dain would know the rest of the characters.  Due to his research, Dain has spent nearly his entire life around the Thrane/Karrnath border.  He would, however, come to Flamekeep is summoned there.  Particularly if the summons came from Alistair.

So aside from the possibility of Dain and Drue crossing paths while visiting the same church near the border, the most likely scenario for Dain to know the other characters is to have worked together with them on some task for Alistair previously, either all at once or different characters at different times.  Can Dave give more detail as to what Alistair has had us do in the past?  Or should we just take it at value that we have all worked together before for Alistair and that we all know and trust one another by now?


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## drothgery (Oct 9, 2005)

There are a lot of things that Lord Alistair has hired independent adventurers for

1) Gathering information about people (which sometimes were corrupt clergymen, other times agents of foreign powers, still other times agents of the great evils of Eberron -- and at those times sometimes not what they appeared to be, and at other times apparently upstanding individuals; in the last case it wasn't always clear whether Lord Alistair was trying to clear someone or if he suspected something but couldn't prove it).

2) Gathering information about places or things with connections to supernatural power.

3) Retrieving items of power that were in remote dungeons/ruined castles, or in the possession of enemies of Thrane and/or the Silver Flame.

4) Destroying enclaves of supernatural evil creatures. The last has been more common in the last two years, as he hasn't been able to get the Church to fund a large garrison in the district he's theocrat of.

It's quite possible that you all have different ideas on what Lord Alistair's truly interested in; one of you could think he's primarily working against the Blood of Vol, while another could think his attentions are mostly focused within the Church.


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## drothgery (Oct 9, 2005)

Okay, nitpickery on your character sheets...

Drue -
Gnomes get +2 Con/-2 Str, so the costs you paid for your attributes is wrong, though this doesn't have any effect on your actual point total.
HPs should be max at first level (6 from d6 HD + 2 from con = 8) and 1/2 max + 1 for each additional level (4 from d6 HD + 2 from con = 6) * 6 levels = 36 + 8 = 44
The +2 mithril shirt is over the 5000 gp maximum for one item; I know it's just barely, but...
Drue is Small; his carrying capacity is 3/4ths that of a medium creature; I'm assuming most of your stuff (other than weapons and armor) is in your haversack, so you're not over encumbrance limits (and this is probably the last time I'll look at the numbers)

Oswin - 
It looks like everything's okay, though I'd like to see where everything's coming from a bit more clearly

Hariel - 
looks good

Dain - 
still on the light side in equipment, but we've discussed this in email


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## Anax (Oct 9, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Brother Shatterstone has informed me that he won't be playing in this game. I think I'm going to stick with five PCs for now.




I’d like to keep my connection to Lord Alistair’s daughter, even without Brother Shatterstone.  (I am sad, though.  Aww.  )  Could you give her a name, if the idea is okay with you?


In other news: I think I’m going to spend at least some of the rest of my ready cash now.  I started thinking about which things Hariel carries with her, and which things she stows in luggage, and the like, and it became too much of a pain.  So I’ll probably be grabbing a handy haversack for 2,000 so that I don’t have to reorganize much when we head out.  (I expected to probably get one, in any case, but wanted to delay for character reasons.)


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## drothgery (Oct 9, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> I’d like to keep my connection to Lord Alistair’s daughter, even without Brother Shatterstone.  (I am sad, though.  Aww.  )  Could you give her a name, if the idea is okay with you?




BS's character was actually playing the part of a grandniece (daughter of one of Lord Alistair's older siblings), not a daughter; I'm not inclined to use the backstory if he's not running the character. On the other hand, I could create a spouse and children for Lord Alistair without too much trouble.


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## Anax (Oct 9, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> BS's character was actually playing the part of a grandniece (daughter of one of Lord Alistair's older siblings), not a daughter; I'm not inclined to use the backstory if he's not running the character. On the other hand, I could create a spouse and children for Lord Alistair without too much trouble.




I was assuming that the whole doppleganger thing wasn’t going on, yes. 

I like the idea of Hariel having become friends with some relative of Lord Alistair, though.  Presumably someone Hari could have met or been introduced to at some point when she met with Lord Alistair.  Without BS’s character, this is nothing more than a name, a mark of Hari’s outgoing nature, a person Hari would want to visit if she was in the right area and not pressed for time, and a thread that you might be able to yank on someday if you wished.

I just feel happier with this in Hari’s backstory—huzzah for verisimilitude!  


Edit: Oh, and I’ve finished making changes to equipment, now.  I added the _Heward’s handy haversack_, and shifted things around to put some items in it.  I’ve also invested in... er... some clothing.  Always good to be clothed.

Any remaining purchases will be after we know where we’re headed.  (The main things I could see coming up are: camping supplies, if we’ll be roughing it; additional breaking and entering supplies if we’ll be sneaking in somewhere; weapons of exotic materials, if we expect that sort of trouble; probably some light sources no matter what.)

The only further change of any sort (besides the above-mentioned purchases) I foresee making is to tweak the Lord Alistair’s relative background bits to provide a name and a correct relationship to Lord Alistair, or to remove those bits entirely.


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## stonegod (Oct 9, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Okay, nitpickery on your character sheets...




No mention of mine, so either it was so bad it blew your mind or was so good it blew your mind.

Or maybe not.


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## drothgery (Oct 9, 2005)

stonegod said:
			
		

> No mention of mine, so either it was so bad it blew your mind or was so good it blew your mind.
> 
> Or maybe not.




Or I just forgot this bit...

Saalin
- looks fine


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## drothgery (Oct 10, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> I was assuming that the whole doppleganger thing wasn’t going on, yes.
> 
> I like the idea of Hariel having become friends with some relative of Lord Alistair, though.  Presumably someone Hari could have met or been introduced to at some point when she met with Lord Alistair.  Without BS’s character, this is nothing more than a name, a mark of Hari’s outgoing nature, a person Hari would want to visit if she was in the right area and not pressed for time, and a thread that you might be able to yank on someday if you wished.
> 
> I just feel happier with this in Hari’s backstory—huzzah for verisimilitude!




Okay, Lord Alistair has a wife (Melindri, of the same old Thrane noble stock as her husband, and his age); their only child is a daughter named Kahlia, who's in her early twenties. Kahlia's a slight woman who, like her father, has rather eclectic interests (which sometimes overlap with his, but sometimes do not) and is generally introverted, but has yet to develop true expertise in any field.



			
				Anax said:
			
		

> Edit: Oh, and I’ve finished making changes to equipment, now.  I added the _Heward’s handy haversack_, and shifted things around to put some items in it.  I’ve also invested in... er... some clothing.  Always good to be clothed.




Every time I make a Star Wars d20 character, I always end up putting some note on the character sheet that unarmored clothing appears to be free and weightless in that game


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## Anax (Oct 10, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Every time I make a Star Wars d20 character, I always end up putting some note on the character sheet that unarmored clothing appears to be free and weightless in that game




Heh.  It’s mostly true here, of course... except that I’ve bought a set of courtier’s clothes as well as free traveller’s clothes (since the basic sets don’t include courtier’s clothes, and they aren’t so much for everyday wear, anyway.)  I’m assuming that whichever set I’m actually wearing is weightless.

I’ll make the changes to Hariel’s background based on what you’ve said, thanks!


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## Anax (Oct 10, 2005)

Hrm.  I take back what I said about being pretty much completely done.  I’m now looking at shifting skills around a little bit to cover some of the core rogue options, since we won’t have a full rogue with the party.  Specifically, Disable Device, and more Open Lock.  Although I’m not sure where I’ll pull the skill points from, yet.  

Edit: Okay, the skill changes are done.  I’m kind of sad to have removed some of the skills I pruned out, but the whole package is a bit cleaner now.  There are the skills I take two ranks in each rogue level (maxed on rogue levels, currently 10 ranks): Disable Device, Open Lock, Search; the skills I take two ranks in each swashbuckler level (maxed on swashbuckler levels, currently 9 ranks): Balance, Climb, Jump, Tumble; and the skills I take one rank in each rogue level (3 + rogue class level, currently 7 ranks): Diplomacy, Hide, Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Spot.

Hariel is a bit less good at social situations than she was, but better in the field.  And the two core skills from that skill set (Diplomacy and Knowledge (local)) are now focused on a bit better than they were.

_Now_ I think that’s the last of the changes I’ll be making.  Skill points are so stressful.


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## ShaggySpellsword (Oct 10, 2005)

I added some detail to where everything comes from.  If there is something still unclear, just tell what, specifically, needs more detail and I will detail it out.


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## wabinder (Oct 11, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> There are a lot of things that Lord Alistair has hired independent adventurers for
> 
> 1) Gathering information about people (which sometimes were corrupt clergymen, other times agents of foreign powers, still other times agents of the great evils of Eberron -- and at those times sometimes not what they appeared to be, and at other times apparently upstanding individuals; in the last case it wasn't always clear whether Lord Alistair was trying to clear someone or if he suspected something but couldn't prove it).
> 
> ...




Brother Dain definately would have been willing and able to do 2, 3, or 4. 

I think the best bet here is that Brother Dain and Lord Alistair met one way or another while Dain was researching the Thrane/Karrnath border disputes during the Last War.  They got to know and like one another, and Lord Alistair likely did his homework and knows Dain's background and knows that he is trustworthy.

The most likely connection between Dain and the rest of the characters then becomes their having worked together in the past for Lord Alistair on one or more of the aforementioned assignments.  It is most likely that we would have all met within the past couple of years (since the end of the War).  Since Lord Alistair cannot get the Church to fund a large garrison in his district, and since he knows that Dain both lives in the area and is trustworthy, Dain probably met most of the other characters during Alistair funded assignments to destroy enclaves of supernatural evil creatures over the past two years.

What do you think?


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## wabinder (Oct 11, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Okay, nitpickery on your character sheets...
> 
> Dain -
> still on the light side in equipment, but we've discussed this in email




I just took another shot at equipment (lowered Dain's tithing amounts so that he could afford some more stuff).  I think that I am done twiddling with equipment and the like now.  Take a look and let me know what you think.

And now that I finally have equipment out of the way, I promise that I will post Action Point and Combat strategies in the next day or two.


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## SelcSilverhand (Oct 11, 2005)

> Drue -
> Gnomes get +2 Con/-2 Str, so the costs you paid for your attributes is wrong, though this doesn't have any effect on your actual point total.
> HPs should be max at first level (6 from d6 HD + 2 from con = 8) and 1/2 max + 1 for each additional level (4 from d6 HD + 2 from con = 6) * 6 levels = 36 + 8 = 44
> The +2 mithril shirt is over the 5000 gp maximum for one item; I know it's just barely, but...
> Drue is Small; his carrying capacity is 3/4ths that of a medium creature; I'm assuming most of your stuff (other than weapons and armor) is in your haversack, so you're not over encumbrance limits (and this is probably the last time I'll look at the numbers)





Okay, moved the points around to reflect the gnome racial scores, fixed the HP, and carrying weight.
I went with a mithril chain shirt +1 instead, then used the 3,000gp saved to add +1 to my darkwood buckler and the remaining 2,000gp to purchase a hat of disguise for 1,800gp, leaving an extra 200gp I added to my total.


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## drothgery (Oct 12, 2005)

I'm going to try and kick things off this weekend, or early next week at the latest; this weekend would be a sure thing, except that I might get sucked into the eleventh Wheel of Time book for a while.


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## drothgery (Oct 13, 2005)

wabinder said:
			
		

> The most likely connection between Dain and the rest of the characters then becomes their having worked together in the past for Lord Alistair on one or more of the aforementioned assignments.  It is most likely that we would have all met within the past couple of years (since the end of the War).  Since Lord Alistair cannot get the Church to fund a large garrison in his district, and since he knows that Dain both lives in the area and is trustworthy, Dain probably met most of the other characters during Alistair funded assignments to destroy enclaves of supernatural evil creatures over the past two years.
> 
> What do you think?




Works for me.

As a complete aside, I saw the Archivist class from the Heroes of Horror excerpt WotC has online and immediately decided that it's _so_ Lord Alistair (and Kahlia, for that matter, though they've both got at least a level of Aristocrat as well). I'm not normally big on the whole horror thing (I own d20 Call of Cthulu, but I've never played it), but I just might by the book just for stuff along the lines of that class.

Let me see if I've got everyone's relationships right so far...

Hariel
- Has historical connections to Lord Alistair, and is a friend/associate of his daughter Kahlia
- Has crossed paths with Oswin through her work
- likely met the others through Lord Alistair

Saalin
- crossed paths with Oswin while he was in Thailost (assuming he was still born there).
- met the Lord Reverened became aquainted through a mutual contact (Lycia).
- may have met Drue due to what he does 
- likely met the others through Lord Alistair

Oswin
- Lord Alistair's itterant nature probably brought him into contact with his mentor at some point.
- crossed paths with Hariel in Flamekeep
- crossed paths with Saalin in Thaliost
- likely met the others through Lord Alistair

Drue
- has no recorded mention of contact with the other characters
- probably sought Lord Alistair out because of Lord Alistair's history with the church
- his itinerant nature fits will with Brother Dain's (they could have crossed paths while the former was investigating a Church and the latter was documenting it).
- It is possible he may have heard of/met Saalin after hearing of a "Aundarian-traitor" giving succor to both sides in Thailost. It is in Drue's character to background-check people he will potentially work with.
- likely met the others through Lord Alistair, though he has the best odds of having running into someone just by chance

Brother Dain
- Met Lord Alistair when Dain was researching border disputes
- could easily have crossed paths with Drue
- likely met the others through Lord Alistair


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## Anax (Oct 13, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> As a complete aside, I saw the Archivist class from the Heroes of Horror excerpt WotC has online and immediately decided that it's _so_ Lord Alistair (and Kahlia, for that matter, though they've both got at least a level of Aristocrat as well). I'm not normally big on the whole horror thing (I own d20 Call of Cthulu, but I've never played it), but I just might by the book just for stuff along the lines of that class.




That is definitely a nice-looking class.  Lots of flavor.

I won’t hesitate to point out that intrigue and horror go together like chocolate and peanut butter.  ;>  Sneaking around, ferreting out secrets... secrets, that you suddenly realize, _man was not meant to know_.  Dun dun dun.......

Er.  Whoops.  Went off a bit for a second there.

The summary for Hariel looks right.  I’d be happy to have Hariel know more people—but since Hari is the sort to give people her trust from the start, I don’t think she’ll have any problems working with strangers.  (Note: That isn’t to say that she’s naïve...  She just prefers to assume the best of people, until they prove that she shouldn’t.  Hopefully she won’t ever come to a point where she starts assuming the worst.)


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## drothgery (Oct 17, 2005)

Okay, the in-character thread is here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2658762


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## drothgery (Oct 17, 2005)

Just one note on posting formats --

Anax - Colored text for dialogue is fine, but I'm using the default ENWorld black background, and the color you're using for Hariel right now is pretty much unreadable for me against that background.


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## Anax (Oct 18, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Just one note on posting formats --
> 
> Anax - Colored text for dialogue is fine, but I'm using the default ENWorld black background, and the color you're using for Hariel right now is pretty much unreadable for me against that background.




I'm using the default as well--that color is a pale green.  It must be because I used the short form (#cfc) instead of long form (#ccffcc).  I'll fix that up.

Edit: Done.  Let me know if it’s still a problem, and I’ll happily make do with no color at all.    This is my first PbP, and I'm still not totally clear on what's expected.

(P.S. Damned browser compatibility issues.)


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## drothgery (Oct 18, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> I'm using the default as well--that color is a pale green.  It must be because I used the short form (#cfc) instead of long form (#ccffcc).  I'll fix that up.
> 
> Edit: Done.  Let me know if it’s still a problem, and I’ll happily make do with no color at all.    This is my first PbP, and I'm still not totally clear on what's expected.
> 
> (P.S. Damned browser compatibility issues.)




No, it looks fine now (though if anyone's using the alternative "stealth" skin, the pale green on white would be quite difficult to read; I had switched so that I could read your post).


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## Anax (Oct 18, 2005)

I had been thinking about that, but figured few people use it.  I may just leave off the color entirely.  It's easier to type messages then, in any case.


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## drothgery (Oct 22, 2005)

Just as an FYI as to the reason behind the slow start... after a bit of rereading the ECS and the adventure I was going to start you with, I decided that it wouldn't work out too well. So we're living entirely off of my creativity for a plot now (whether that's good or bad will be up to you).


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## stonegod (Oct 22, 2005)

*Tense Thing*

My IC post tends to be in present test (Saalin _does_) something more than past since I think it better conveys what is going on. However, as this is my first PbP, I'm not sure how to communicate things that I would attempt to do but my have to change due to initiative, things in the room (maybey Saalin spots something in the room when he looks around?), etc. My post currently uses conditional present tense for that (Saalin _would follow_). Is that okay? What is the etiquette here?


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## drothgery (Oct 22, 2005)

Write however you think works best for you and your character. I'm not going to sick the grammar police on anyone (unless they mangle the English language too badly).

However, I almost always write in past tense.


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## Anax (Oct 22, 2005)

I started trying to write in past tense, but I think I'll have to switch to present.  It seems more difficult to describe character actions in the past tense.  

drothgery: What are our lodging arrangements while we are visiting?  Are we staying in town?  In guest rooms in this building?  (Depending on the answer, I may or may not have certain items on my person.)


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## drothgery (Oct 22, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> drothgery: What are our lodging arrangements while we are visiting?  Are we staying in town?  In guest rooms in this building?  (Depending on the answer, I may or may not have certain items on my person.)




While there is an inn in the village, you're staying at the manor unless your character made other arrangements on their own. Certainly Lord Alistair expected you to stay at his manor, and made arrangements based on that. There's certainly room at the manor; it was designed to have rather more family in residence than what's there at this time (just Lord Alistair, his wife, and their daughter) and have places for their guests as well.


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## drothgery (Oct 23, 2005)

If you're wondering what's going on here ...

[sblock]
Your host was the victim of a scry-buff-teleport attack. However, he spotted the censor and was able to make a few quick preparations (laying down a _Silence_, getting some alchemical items ready). Nonetheless, he knows quite well that anyone or anything that can teleport likely has him overmatched (Lord Alistair is an Aristocrat 2/Archivist 7, albeit with more personal funds than a standard 9th-level character), so his primary goal was to keep Kahlia (Aristocrat 1/Archivist 3) from coming to his rescure.
[/sblock]


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## drothgery (Oct 24, 2005)

Just as an FYI - I usually run PBP combat by getting the actions from all the PCs, then rolling the dice and writing out an entire round. If a combat's pretty much finished and it's clear the PCs are going to win (the bad guys will go down in one or two standard attacks), I may play that out without asking for another round of actions.

Don't worry about submitting actions out of order; if someone with a higher initiative acts to make your proposed action impossible (or impractical), you'll have the oportunity to change things.


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## drothgery (Oct 25, 2005)

FYI - I should write out the first round this evening; my tabletop game got moved to Thursdays for a while, so I'll be at home tonight.


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## Anax (Oct 26, 2005)

Woo!  Archivists are neat.  

I’m unclear about what portion of the room is under the effect of _silence_—or even if it is still under effect, given that we seem to be able to hear Lord Alistair cast, Drue sing, and Kahlia  provide her advice all at once.  The presumed sorcerer didn’t attempt to cast any spells yet, but there are other reasons that might have happened.

I’m going to assume for now that Hariel has no solid idea about this, although she’s aware that there still might be an active _silence_ effect in some portion of the room.  (I considered taking some ranks in Spellcraft, but decided that Hariel hasn’t directly encountered spells or spell effects in her work often enough to warrant it.  Besides, there are specialists at that sort of thing, and they’re _much much_ better at it than she could quickly become.  Being able to deal with the kinds of spells that blow up in your face was enough for most fieldwork.)


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## drothgery (Oct 26, 2005)

I've posted an ASCII art map (things are pretty closely packed in this room right now, but a 30' x 20' room seemed more than big enough for an archivist's lab) in the game thread.

The sorcerer, and one of the warriors (though not the one you're fighting) are in the Silenced area; Alistair and your allies are not.

If your character knows anything about rakshasas...

[sblock]
... then you know that you're pretty seriously overmatched here, or at least would be if Alistair hadn't managed to get the drop on them. Their damage reduction and spell resistance means only Hariel has a good chance of really hurting them, thanks to her flametouched iron thinblade and a decent BAB; even she probably needs a flanking partner (both to increase chance to hit and to get sneak attack damage in) for that to work. And that maximized Castigate spell was Alistair's big gun; he can't do that again.
[/sblock]

Oh, and go ahead and post tactical options. There will definitely be times when good tactics (or running away) are necessary if you want to survive a fight. So charge, tumble, grapple, trip, bull rush, move to set up flanking, balance on an overturned table to get high ground, use aid another, fight defensively, and all that whenever it's approriate.


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## SelcSilverhand (Oct 26, 2005)

Okay, I edited my post with new tactics


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## drothgery (Oct 27, 2005)

wabinder - I just noticed that you still need to make some decisions on Dain's monk bonus feats; you've still got this:

Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist at Level 1
Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows at Level 2
Improved Disarm or Improved Trip at Level 6

on your character sheet. And, well, trying for a grapple, stun, disarm, or trip might be worth thinking about right now.


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## wabinder (Oct 27, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> wabinder - I just noticed that you still need to make some decisions on Dain's monk bonus feats; you've still got this:
> 
> Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist at Level 1
> Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows at Level 2
> ...




My choices are listed on the character sheet, under the section labelled Feats.  Been there all along.  The choices were Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrow, and Improved Disarm.  I don't think Dain knows much about rakshasas, so he doesn't know yet just how outmatched he is.  I am thinking that he will realize in about another round or so and start thinking about changing his tactics.


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## drothgery (Oct 27, 2005)

wabinder said:
			
		

> My choices are listed on the character sheet, under the section labelled Feats.  Been there all along.  The choices were Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrow, and Improved Disarm.  I don't think Dain knows much about rakshasas, so he doesn't know yet just how outmatched he is.  I am thinking that he will realize in about another round or so and start thinking about changing his tactics.




Sorry. Missed that.


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## stonegod (Oct 27, 2005)

ShaggySpellsword said:
			
		

> Oswin runs up behind the sorcerer, striking him in the back with a savage two-handed Rapier thrust.




I'm pretty sure you can't wield a rapier two-handed, or at least get any bonus for doing so. Sorry, Oz.


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## drothgery (Oct 27, 2005)

stonegod said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure you can't wield a rapier two-handed, or at least get any bonus for doing so. Sorry, Oz.




Ayup. Two-handed attacking with a medium rapier is of no use for a medium-sized character.

Oz can either 5-foot-step and flank with Kahlia/full attack/sneak attack 1 (the warrior that's been free since you got in the room, and is in pretty bad shape; these things happen when you hold your enemey in contempt... and fail SR rolls and saves against a maximized spell) or work around back and flank with Kahlia/attack/sneak attack 3 (the sorcerer with a few scratches). #2 hasn't been touched yet; there have been a lot of failed AoOs against him, and he failed to grapple Alistair (by rolling awfully when Alistair rolled well).

(Just as an FYI - I won't be rolling this round until Friday unless my tabletop game ends really early tonight; it takes me a while to go through mechanics spread amoung half a dozen rulebooks, some web pages, and a few files on my computer.)


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## Anax (Oct 27, 2005)

Just a note that I've revised my action after seeing the map.  (Much simpler now.)

Just as a note: it simplifies things here, I suppose, if we always use our AoO on the first target that provokes.  We are not, however, obliged to by the RAW.  If that warrior moves around again I would like to save my AoO for the caster.  I'll try to think to mention that in my posts in the future... I'm not used to having to think of things like this ahead of time.


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## drothgery (Oct 27, 2005)

(double post)


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## drothgery (Oct 27, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> Just a note that I've revised my action after seeing the map.  (Much simpler now.)
> 
> Just as a note: it simplifies things here, I suppose, if we always use our AoO on the first target that provokes.  We are not, however, obliged to by the RAW.  If that warrior moves around again I would like to save my AoO for the caster.  I'll try to think to mention that in my posts in the future... I'm not used to having to think of things like this ahead of time.




Yeah, it's one of those things that a lot simpler if I just assume you're going to take the first AoO that presents itself. AoOs are tricky enough to manage as it is. Besides, most things you fight won't have a high enough AC (or DR that renders many weapons worthless; despite their being three on the field right now, flametouched iron rapiers and thinblades aren't something rakshasas see every day, even in Thrane) that they figure they can deal with 4 AoOs with impunity   

Also, remember that Hariel is fatigued (-2 to Str and Dex) after being nailed with a Ray of Exhaustion and making her save (otherwise she'd be Exhausted, and -6 to Str and Dex).


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## Anax (Oct 28, 2005)

Ahh!  I knew I was forgetting something...  good thing I made that save.

If you want to stick with the pure first-AoO thing, I'm fine with that.  I wouldn't expect it to be an issue all that often, in any case.  PbP combat seems tricky.    (Actually, I'm a bit surprised you jumped into a fight so immediately!  Although it does set the mood quite nicely, and let us work out mechanics questions early.)


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## drothgery (Oct 28, 2005)

I wasn't planning on jumping into a fight right away, but then I had an idea that pretty much required the scene that's playing out now.

As for AoOs, I think anything else would really slow down combat (and PBP combat is slow enough already), as anytime someone did something that provoked an AoO, I'd have to stop and ask if they wanted to take it (because it's rarely obvious that someone's going to come in behind another creature that drew out the AoOs). FWIW, monsters and hostile NPCs will follow the same rule, and always take the first AoO presented.


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## drothgery (Oct 30, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> OOC: Hrm. If they're grappling, they should be in the same square--specifically, Dain should have entered the Rakshasa's square. In any case, five foot step for two strikes. -4 non-proficiency penalty for doing subdual damage, can't sneak attack.




I think technically Dain doesn't enter the rakshasa's squre until his next turn.

And I guess by game mechanics it is quite possible to do subdual damage with a thinblade (i.e. basically a bigger rapier) against a creature that has DR 15/piercing and good by taking a -4 to hit, even if it seems a bit wierd...


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## stonegod (Oct 30, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> I think technically Dain doesn't enter the rakshasa's squre until his next turn.




According the the SRD, he's already there:


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Step 4*
> 
> Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)



I played a monk for a few years, so grappling rules are second nature to me by now.


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## Anax (Oct 31, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> And I guess by game mechanics it is quite possible to do subdual damage with a thinblade (i.e. basically a bigger rapier) against a creature that has DR 15/piercing and good by taking a -4 to hit, even if it seems a bit wierd...




Yeah.  This is one of the weirder intersections of the rules for subdual damage, DR, and weapon damage types.  Without using a good and piercing weapon, these guys don't get hurt by small amounts of damage (and that includes subdual damage.)  So, in order to effectively do subdual damage, you need a good piercing weapon.

Normally, I'd describe what Hariel's doing as attempting to slug the enemy with the hilt of the weapon, but that doesn't make sense with the DR in this case.  (Actually, that's what I originally wrote as flavor text, but then I noticed this problem.)

There's no _super_ good way to imagine what's going on here, according to the rules.  But, the easiest way I can think of it is that Hariel is still doing "real" damage to the opponent, but she's being very careful to avoid hitting anything vital.  Kind of the opposite of making a sneak attack.  Things like piercing a shoulder or the flesh of an arm or leg...  Those still hurt a lot, result in blood less and gradual weakening, (and in reality, could still get seriously infected by deep puncture wounds, but this isn't reality...)  But they aren't as severe a danger as punctures to the chest cavity.  This way, the attack penalty is then because she's trying really really hard to avoid vital areas, not because she's using the "flat" of the blade or something.  And, the inability to sneak attack is because sneak attacking depends on striking for a vital area.


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## drothgery (Oct 31, 2005)

I wasn't sure how to come up with flavor text for doing non-lethal damage with a piercing weapon; thanks.

I'll write the next round this evening; if Oswin doesn't post, I'll assume he joins in the attempt-to-subdue crowd.


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## ShaggySpellsword (Nov 1, 2005)

I have a dilemma...I never posted my memorized Paladin spell.  There is, now, an obvious choice (Bless Weapon!).  Should I just assume I memorized something else though?  Bless or Lesser Restoration?

I am back now.  Posting!


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## drothgery (Nov 1, 2005)

ShaggySpellsword said:
			
		

> I have a dilemma...I never posted my memorized Paladin spell.  There is, now, an obvious choice (Bless Weapon!).  Should I just assume I memorized something else though?  Bless or Lesser Restoration?
> 
> I am back now.  Posting!




It's up to you what you have prepared; having _Bless Weapon_ in the first round would have been nice, but at this point you're already holding a good & piercing weapon (flametouched iron weapons are always [Good], and it's a rapier).


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## ShaggySpellsword (Nov 1, 2005)

Right...forgot about that.  Well then, I will just assume I have already cast whatever it was today and remember to memorize something for the next time.


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## Anax (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm sure drothgery has gotten to check out his ECS for Investigate by now, but here's a quick summary for future reference (and my take on it, so drothgery can correct me if he thinks it should work differently):


The Investigate feat (ECS, pp. 55-56) enables new uses for the Search skill--finding and analyzing clues.  Clues are described specifically as being "physical, and can be seen, heard, touched, smelled, or tasted.  A clue stands out because it is not a normal feature of the area being searched."  Examples given are: a trampled flowerbed, a broken urn, a pin snapped off in a lock, a torn strip of cloak, a burnt scrap of scroll, or a brooch clutched in a dead man's fist.

If there are no clues that can be found, a successful use of Investigate doesn't turn anything up.


The base Search DC to find a clue (if there _is_ a clue, now--this doesn't cons things up out of the ether) is 10, modified based on how disturbed the area being searched has been.  +0 for an undisturbed location, +5 for a disturbed location (slightly and perhaps unintentionally.  A good classical example would be bystanders walking around on a crime scene), and +10 for greatly disturbed (massively and intentionally--scrubbing down the area, etc.)


Once a clue has been found, analyzing it requires a second DC 15 Search check.  "By examining a body, you might determine whether the victim fought back or provided no struggle at all, or if claws, a weapon, or a spell killed the victim.  By looking at a scorch mark on a wall, you might approximate the position of the spellcaster when the spell was cast."

The Search check to analyze a clue is modified by the circumstance, and how significant the insight provided by the clue is.  The Search DC is increased by +2 for each day that's passed since the event in question (max +10), +0 if it's a minor clue (provides only a small piece of the solution), +2 for a moderate clue (provides significant data toward the solution of the puzzle and could lead to a conclusion without additional data), and +5 for a major clue (provides everything the investigator needs to solve a puzzle, although the solution may not be immediately obvious.)


A really good example that springs to mind of how these two things work together is a classic Sherlock Holmes snippet: Holmes notices that Watson's shoes are stained by a certain color of mud (find a clue).  He then deduces that Watson has been to a specific part of town where new construction is happening, because it's spreading a lot of dirt about, of that specific hue (analyze it.)  Holmes does this all as a free action, which clearly implies that Holmes is an epic character.  *cough*  



For this specific case, I'm not sure whether Investigate even applies.  I'm thinking in terms of the puzzle in question being why the fiends wanted Lord Alistair.  An example of clues in the recent posting might be the drawings and journals.  Analysis might be able to suggest what he was working on when the fiends came in, or perhaps provide some insight into what Lord Alistair's research was trending towards: Hariel probably wouldn't know about fiends in detail, but she might be able to deduce from the pattern of the research that some item is of greater significance, and draw that item to the attention of the people who do know more about fiends.

Investigate might also reveal as character knowledge some of the "what's going on" bits that were posted about how the fight came to be, with the silence spell to try to keep Kahlia from getting involved, etc.


Investigate is definitely one of those skills where it's totally up to the DM what information may or may not be gained from use, and how to provide that information.  Sometimes, there won't be any use for it.  Sometimes, it'll be an appropriate time to use it, but there still won't be anything useful to be gained.  (Same sort of thing as Gather Information: sometimes there are no locals to talk to.  Sometimes there are locals, but they don't know anything of import.)


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## drothgery (Nov 4, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> I'm sure drothgery has gotten to check out his ECS for Investigate by now, but here's a quick summary for future reference (and my take on it, so drothgery can correct me if he thinks it should work differently):




While I had my ECS out, it was for my tabletop game (Thursday nights for now), so I haven't written up anything for Investigate beyond a normal Search.



			
				Anax said:
			
		

> For this specific case, I'm not sure whether Investigate even applies.  I'm thinking in terms of the puzzle in question being why the fiends wanted Lord Alistair.  An example of clues in the recent posting might be the drawings and journals.  Analysis might be able to suggest what he was working on when the fiends came in, or perhaps provide some insight into what Lord Alistair's research was trending towards: Hariel probably wouldn't know about fiends in detail, but she might be able to deduce from the pattern of the research that some item is of greater significance, and draw that item to the attention of the people who do know more about fiends.
> 
> Investigate might also reveal as character knowledge some of the "what's going on" bits that were posted about how the fight came to be, with the silence spell to try to keep Kahlia from getting involved, etc.
> 
> ...




I think there might be some things you can pick up, especially given an excellent result on the Search check. I'll have to think about it.


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## drothgery (Nov 7, 2005)

*Ask the DM*



			
				stonegod said:
			
		

> OCC: Drothgery---do you prefer OCC comments/mechanics in grey [...] or in SBLOCKs




I'd rather reserve SBLOCKs for things that aren't known to all characters, unless you've got a long block of mechanics to write (which shouldn't happen too much in-character, and more than a line or two of OOC comments should really be over here in the OOC thread).

One question for you guys, though -- is anyone else waiting on anything from me before moving on?


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## stonegod (Nov 7, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> I'd rather reserve SBLOCKs for things that aren't known to all characters, unless you've got a long block of mechanics to write (which shouldn't happen too much in-character, and more than a line or two of OOC comments should really be over here in the OOC thread).




I'll do so from here out.



			
				drothgery said:
			
		

> One question for you guys, though -- is anyone else waiting on anything from me before moving on?




I think Hariel is waiting for Ava to get tools to open the drawer, the rest are waiting for search results, and Saalin is waiting for the above in addition to Kahlia's response on the divinatory thread of investigation. That's my reading, anyway.


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## Anax (Nov 9, 2005)

Actually, I was too busy to post this weekend--my apologies for not mentioning something earlier.


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## stonegod (Nov 9, 2005)

I will be out Fri-Sun myself, though I may be able to check intermintently.


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## drothgery (Nov 9, 2005)

Don't worry about it unless you can't post for more than three or four days (and if it's over a period when I'm not around, it's probably not too important). Although it's great when everyone can post every day (including me), I didn't expect that would be the case very often.

So very advanced notice...

Thanksgiving weekend and the week between Christmas and New Year's almost certainly will have no GM posts (unless I'm both really bored and have access to an internet connection).

I'm moving into a new apartment (just down the street and around the corner from my current one) the next weekend (Dec 2/3), and I'm not exactly sure how long it will take the cable company to disconnect me, reconnect me, and get everything up and running again (though if everything works out okay, it should be just a day without an Internet connection; that's what they said, anyway).


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## stonegod (Nov 9, 2005)

I'm a bit rusty at wizards (haven't played one since 2nd), so I am not aware of any means other than re-scrying to either (1) trace where a scry came from [especially and old one] or (2) trace the destination of a teleport. Saalin would attempt a Spellcraft check to make up for my ignorace.


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## drothgery (Nov 9, 2005)

I'm pretty sure the only core way to trace a telport is with the _Trace Teleport_ psionic power. Don't know about scrying, though _Detect Scrying_ doesn't let you know who's doing the scrying.


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## stonegod (Nov 21, 2005)

Assuming nothing exciting happens at the inn or while we are in Thaloist, Saalin will acquire two scrolls of comprehend language and one of scrying (for a total of 750gp before markup) and then head back. I'll wait to post anything about the arrival until time catches up w/ us on the other side of the split.

Does Brother Dain have any business in Thaloist he wants to accomplish before we leave?


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## drothgery (Nov 21, 2005)

Two quick questions, and a reminder

*Hariel/Drue/Oz*
- Do any of you have any specific questions for the rakshasa, or should I just roll some dice and write out what you learn from questioning it? I'll do the latter if I don't have any actions from you by tomorrow.

*Oz*
- Any reason you haven't posted for more than two weeks? If it's Real Life-related, I can keep Oz in the background (or find a reason why he stays somewhere when the PCs move on). If you're not interested in the game anymore, I'll probably recruit a replacement.

*Everyone*
I'm going to try and move things along a little bit tonight or tomorrow, but I'll be out of town from Wednesday to Saturday.


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## wabinder (Nov 22, 2005)

stonegod said:
			
		

> Does Brother Dain have any business in Thaloist he wants to accomplish before we leave?




Nope.  Dain is just along for the ride.


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## Ringmereth (Nov 23, 2005)

I haven't really been following this, but if you do happen to require a replacement, I'd be glad to get in on this game, seeing that the rest of mine have died or been put on indefinite hold since I submitted my priest.


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## Anax (Nov 24, 2005)

No specific questions here.  Hariel certainly has some things she'd like to know, but she thinks very much that it will take trickery to get them out of the Rakshasa, and she knows she's never been much good at that.  So she plans to watch for cues and come in as good cop, bad cop, or whatever seems to be needed.  And she plans to listen carefully in case the Rakshasa gives something up unintentionally.


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## SelcSilverhand (Nov 27, 2005)

Only things I want to know from the Rakshasa are the basics:
Where is he from?
What's the name of the Rakshasa that cast the teleport?
Why take Lord Alistair?

Mostly I'm going try to anger him in any way possible to get him to spill something.


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## drothgery (Nov 27, 2005)

Ringmereth said:
			
		

> I haven't really been following this, but if you do happen to require a replacement, I'd be glad to get in on this game, seeing that the rest of mine have died or been put on indefinite hold since I submitted my priest.




Well, between Thanksgiving and moving next weekend, I'm not going to try looking for alts for at least another week or two, but if Oz is still MIA after that, I'll probably resurrect the recruiting thread.


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## stonegod (Dec 5, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> *Saalin/Dain*
> 
> Finding someone with a scry scroll on hand was not too difficult for Saalin; the his disagreements with city's current rulers normally kept him of Thaliost, but he still knew where to find things in the city. And so by midday they were on their way back to ir'Indari manor, with a scroll in hand, and without 700 gold pieces.




I was also hoping to pick up two scrolls of _comprehend languages_ to assist in the translation (assuming it is in another language---it won't help w/ the cipher, but if the cipher is in another language, it still could help  ).


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## drothgery (Dec 5, 2005)

stonegod said:
			
		

> I was also hoping to pick up two scrolls of _comprehend languages_ to assist in the translation (assuming it is in another language---it won't help w/ the cipher, but if the cipher is in another language, it still could help  ).




Go ahead; I don't remember the cost of 0-level or 1st-level scrolls (or which comp lang is), but they're easily available.


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## stonegod (Dec 5, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Go ahead; I don't remember the cost of 0-level or 1st-level scrolls (or which comp lang is), but they're easily available.




I included them in my cost estimate above; 750gp for all three scrolls, well w/in the Kahlia's budget.


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## wabinder (Dec 12, 2005)

This post is primarily to let the DM know that I am still alive and playing.  The other reason is to mention that I believe the current in-game discussion is taking place in the morning.  Which would mean that Saalin and Dain have not yet returned.  Hence my relative silence recently.  Please make it obvious at what point Saalin and Dain reenter the scene, so that I may begin posting again.  Until then, Dain is being rather silent on the journey back.  Which is somewhat characteristic of him when he is around people whom he is not particularly familiar with.


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## drothgery (Dec 12, 2005)

Hmm. The most-recent in-game discussion was late morning; the map-searching that it led to took several hours, and it's early afternoon (unless Hariel or Drue has any further questions for Kahlia, or Oz suddenly reappears).

I'm going to write Oz out of the game when you leave the manor unless he reappears before then.


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## Anax (Dec 16, 2005)

Please note that I'll be on holiday visiting family for the next couple of weeks.  So, I may be even quieter than I have been for a little while.  (Hariel seems to currently be in a mood to listen and gather information until she has something significant to say.)


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## drothgery (Dec 20, 2005)

I'll only be away from the 24th-29th here.


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## stonegod (Dec 24, 2005)

Like drogothery, I'll be less posty for the next few days, merry ho-ho-ing and all that.


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