# Rap and Hip-Hop at the game table?



## dreaded_beast (Mar 10, 2004)

There probably have already been threads regarding "music at the game table". However, I am not sure if the title question has been posed before.

For myself, I am a fan of rap and hip-hop, although I am not expert on the genre. Don't expect me to be able to trace back the origins of hip-hop, but I know what I like, heh. 

Anyways, it has always been my opinion that "music at the table" is used to enhance the feel of the game. The particular piece of music that is playing should compliment what is going on during a particular encounter.

Almost all of the examples I have seen point towards "classic" music: the Conan soundtrack, various rock and roll/heavy metal bands, etc.

For myself, while I enjoy rock and roll/heavy metal as well, I also get strong feelings and emotions while listening to rap/hip-hop. While almost every gamer I have come accross either detests rap/hip-hop or at best, is ambivalent, I was wondering if anyone ever toyed with this idea.

On a similar note, I have been enjoying the recent "trend" of mixing kung-fu flix with hip-hop. Do you think the same could be done for DND?


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## frankthedm (Mar 10, 2004)

My group is comprised of metalheads. We are sick enough of cRap in the mainstream media that we might hurt someone who snuck any into the CD changer.


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## dreaded_beast (Mar 10, 2004)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> My group is comprised of metalheads. We are sick enough of cRap in the mainstream media that we might hurt someone who snuck any into the CD changer.




The same could be said for when all those Hair Bands were running around.

Hehe. 

Remember When Metal Ruled the World?
Remember the 80s?

I love those VH1 specials, mainly for the nostalgia of the times. When I hear some of those songs or see how people were dressed back then, it brings tears to my eyes.


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## Dark Jezter (Mar 10, 2004)

I'll bet these guys would listen to rap at the gaming table.


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## dreaded_beast (Mar 10, 2004)

This was one of my favorite scenes from the movie, heh. 

Those are real gangstas!

I'm the skinny guy with glasses in the picture.


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## Snoweel (Mar 10, 2004)

I loved rap music in my early teens (late 80s - about '91) but fell off until Eminem hit mainstream. Now it's the only music I listen to when I'm driving - I've even been hunting down all the old albums I had on (bootlegged) tapes when I was a kid.

I got 'Paid in Full' a couple of weeks ago.


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## James Heard (Mar 10, 2004)

The most important thing is making sure that your players don't hate rap. Really, I didn't know everyone hated my Indian folk music until I started playing it for my gaming sessions and boy did everyone just drop out of character and let me have it real quick. If your players are up for it though, anything goes. I used to play Ministry and Skinny Puppy for my Cyberpunk game, every so often we'd have to cut the game to go out back and light things on fire and stomp on fruit and other mushy breakables. I think the only rap I've used in my games has been for Mekton and Top Secret/SI games, but I could easily imagine working in Wu Tang or something similar into just about any game where I haven't completely killed that tone with another flavor of music already.

One more hint, sometimes there's another problem with popular music in your games. Playing music that gets stuck in player's heads, encourages them to listen to the music instead of you, or makes them want to get up and dance isn't always a good thing no matter how much you might all like the music. You might do well to find someone on the street selling a 'rapless' freestyle beats-only sort of cd instead.


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## Beale Knight (Mar 10, 2004)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> Anyways, it has always been my opinion that "music at the table" is used to enhance the feel of the game. The particular piece of music that is playing should compliment what is going on during a particular encounter.
> 
> Almost all of the examples I have seen point towards "classic" music: the Conan soundtrack, various rock and roll/heavy metal bands, etc.
> 
> For myself, while I enjoy rock and roll/heavy metal as well, I also get strong feelings and emotions while listening to rap/hip-hop. While almost every gamer I have come accross either detests rap/hip-hop or at best, is ambivalent, I was wondering if anyone ever toyed with this idea.




I think rap/hip-hop would work fine for a modern game, but would be too far removed from the feel of fantasy to be a smooth fit, as would most rock and metal. That said, you might successfully employ it in fantasy anyway if you established it as a characteristic of your game from the outset. The idea reminds me of the "A Knight's Tale" movie, where rock was used as the soundtrack for an otherwise typical "medieval, quasi-fantasy adventure" movie. It's either accepted as a feature or it completely blows any suspension of disbelief.


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## Li Shenron (Mar 10, 2004)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> For myself, while I enjoy rock and roll/heavy metal as well, I also get strong feelings and emotions while listening to rap/hip-hop. While almost every gamer I have come accross either detests rap/hip-hop or at best, is ambivalent, I was wondering if anyone ever toyed with this idea.




Obviously, if you just want to have some music on while you are playing just like you would have when doing whatever else, it doesn't matter what music it is as long as you like it. If you know that your friends really dislike the kind of music, don't put it on ever when they are around (it may even de-concentrate then from the game).

If you want a honest opinion about how does rap/hiphop match with a fantasy game of epic battles and intrigue, I honestly say that it doesn't.   Just question yourself if you would have liked to watch The Lord Of The Rings with a rap/hiphop soundtrack, or otherwise a modern action movie like The Matrix or Mission Impossible with a classical soundtrack.


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## Zoatebix (Mar 10, 2004)

*Undergroud, trip-hop, and bears - oh my!*

Say no to the pop "Bling-bling" tripe that passes for hip-hop on the radio these days!  Go independant... or at least quasi-underground.

I highly reccommend Blackalicious's 2002 album Blazing Arrow.  You get 17 tracks for your money, too, and the title will make the archers in your campaign happy   Seriously though, "Chemical Calisthenics" is an amazing feat, and a fitting sequil to "Alphabet Aerobics" from the A2G ep they put out in 1999.

In all seriousness, I'd probably want to listen to it closely rather than have it in the background as ambient music.  A lot of it's really evocative, though - "Sky is Falling" is definately an appropriate RPG mood-setter.

Maybe something by the Beta Band?  Their hip-hop influence is tangential at best, but it's there!  I've gotta recommend them to everyone.  John Cussack decided to feature their single "Dry the Rain" prominently in the movie High Fidelity, but be sure to check our their album Hot Shots II in addition to The Three EPs.

-z


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## arwink (Mar 10, 2004)

http://www.lordsoftherhymes.com

Word.

(Edited to fix link)


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## Mirth (Mar 10, 2004)

Start out with DJ Shadow's _Endtroducing_ and then make your way into the rest of the turntablist movement. Lots of amazing instrumental hip-hop to be found there. Try renting the documentary _Scratch_ for more info.


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## Zoatebix (Mar 10, 2004)

wrong link.  I think you meant this: http://www.lordsoftherhymes.com/


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## arwink (Mar 10, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> wrong link.  I think you meant this: http://www.lordsoftherhymes.com/




Indeed I did.  Teach me to type urls by memory 

Thanks for the catch.


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## Tratyn Runewind (Mar 10, 2004)

Hello, 

Hmm, hip-hop at the gaming table, eh?  I suppose I could see it in certain big-city adventures or campaigns; lending a decadent urban edge to tales of crime guilds, vampire or lycanthrope circles, or revolutionary groups, that might correspond roughly to rap's stereotypical "gangstas"...

And I believe it was noted West Coast bard/rogue Andre the Rhymer who declaimed, 

_Never let me slip 'cause if I slip, then I'm slippin', 
but if I got my +5 anarchic flaming burst bastard sword then ya know I'm straight trippin'!_


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## Zoatebix (Mar 10, 2004)

Mirth said:
			
		

> Start out with DJ Shadow's _Endtroducing_ and then make your way into the rest of the turntablist movement. Lots of amazing instrumental hip-hop to be found there. Try renting the documentary _Scratch_ for more info.




Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

ooh ooh!  Doctor Octagon's Octagoneocologyst, too!  Get the 20-track version with the DJ Shadow mix of "waiting list"...  I haven't heard the whole album, but I've heard nothing but good things about it.

I'm not sure I'm  really on the topic of gaming music anymore, but at least the few people who read this thread will hear about some of the good stuff that's being done in hip-hop.
-z


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## EricNoah (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm one of those people who focuses so much I don't even hear the music most of the time if it's on during a game.  I don't think it would bother me if music I didn't like was playing as long as it wasn't so loud that we couldn't comfortably talk/listen.  (And I do like rap; my nickname at Nutkinland wasn't "Eazy E" for nothing!) The few times I bothered to try to come up with ambiance music, it didn't make a difference because I stopped hearing it the second the game started.

edit: Oh, and great pic Dark Jezter.  My favorite scene is right at the beginning with that nerd guy driving to work with his rap music on.  I'm sure I look just like that.


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## Li Shenron (Mar 10, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I'm one of those people who focuses so much *I don't even hear the music* most of the time if it's on during a game.  I don't think it would bother me if music I didn't like was playing as long as it wasn't so loud that we couldn't comfortably talk/listen.  (And *I do like rap*; my nickname at Nutkinland wasn't "Eazy E" for nothing!) The few times I bothered to try to come up with ambiance music, it didn't make a difference because I stopped hearing it the second the game started.




...which immediately made me think of "people who like rap"="people who don't hear the music"   

Sorry, bad joke...


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## Henry (Mar 10, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> ...My favorite scene is right at the beginning with that nerd guy driving to work with his rap music on.  I'm sure I look just like that.




Oh, you mean Michael Bolton? Yes, that was the character's name: Michael Bolton.


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## diaglo (Mar 10, 2004)

You gotta fight for your right to party.


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## EricNoah (Mar 10, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Oh, you mean Michael Bolton? Yes, that was the character's name: Michael Bolton.




Oh yeah, that's right!  I have to see that movie again...


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## Numion (Mar 10, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Say no to the pop "Bling-bling" tripe that passes for hip-hop on the radio these days!




Considering 3E's amount of magic items there certainly is a lot of "Bling-bling" going on in the game - rings, bracelets, amulets, periapts, crowns etc ..   

But yeah, I've used some rap, but I wouldn't call it a soundtrack. We're just listening and playing at the same time. Of late we've mostly been sticking to Conan though.


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## Davelozzi (Mar 10, 2004)

Beale Knight said:
			
		

> I think rap/hip-hop would work fine for a modern game, but would be too far removed from the feel of fantasy to be a smooth fit.




I agree with Beale Knight, although I also feel that rap is best cranked full blast, while any gaming music is best played softly in the background, so there's a bit of aconflict on interests there.  Although, truth be told, I'm not one of those people that generally plays music when gaming anyway.

I agree with Snoweel and others that rap is perfect for driving.


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## The Mirrorball Man (Mar 10, 2004)

We've recently played a very high-level game in which the PCs were basically killed, sent to Hell, and had to prevent a Hell/Abyss war before getting back to Earth.

During all the scenes set in Hell, I played country music.
'We hate country music', the players said.
'Hey, what do you expect, you're in Hell!", the wise DM answered.

Of course, during all the scenes set in the Abyss, I played rap/hip-hop.
'We hate hip-hop', the notoriously musically challenged players said.
'Hey, what do you expect? You're in the Abyss!', the wise DM answered again, with a very irritating smile upon His face.   

Turned out the players probably didn't hate country music and rap as much as they claimed, because in the end, the music really enhanced the mood of the game.


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## Desdichado (Mar 10, 2004)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> Almost all of the examples I have seen point towards "classic" music: the Conan soundtrack, various rock and roll/heavy metal bands, etc.



?  ?  That's not classic music.

Heavy metal seems to be the "in" thing for RPGers.  I can't stand it, but that's OK.  Listen to whatever you like.  It's your game, after all.  The only advice I really have is to not let the music be distracting from the game.  Music can add to the game if done correctly, if not, you're better off not using it at all.


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## Ottergame (Mar 10, 2004)

Classic rock music is great for battles, but all the other times it's just annoying to listen to.

But I am so freakin' sick of anything hip-hop and urban I'd walk away from a game group that had that music playing.  I used to play at a game store that had crappy alternative radio stations on, and you could FEEL the games suffer because of it.  When you got music playing that is so utterly against the game you are playing, the game suffers from it.  People's play styles reflect what they hear, and it becomes crap.


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## EricNoah (Mar 10, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Heavy metal seems to be the "in" thing for RPGers.  I can't stand it, but that's OK.  Listen to whatever you like.  It's your game, after all.  The only advice I really have is to not let the music be distracting from the game.  Music can add to the game if done correctly, if not, you're better off not using it at all.




Word.  It's not about what type of music, it's about making a comfortable/fun environment for all.


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## Henry (Mar 10, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Heavy metal seems to be the "in" thing for RPGers.  I can't stand it, but that's OK.  Listen to whatever you like.




Keeping in mind that in the 80's (the biggest period for RPG's to date) the majority of gamers were white males who listened to metal and "hair bands", it makes sense the prevalent taste in the gaming community for rock and metal. Heck, my high school and college groups were the same way - AC/DC was king.

Nowadays that taste is gradually shifting to a more mixed bag, with newer blood being introduced on a more frequent rate recently.

Me, I was a freak for ANYTHING 80's music - the nascent hip-hop, the pop, the new wave, the punk, etc. Beastie Boys, Run DMC, Kurtis Blow, Slick Rick, all were cool as  to me - they still are.


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## Kid Socrates (Mar 10, 2004)

I stay away from classic rock as much as possible, prefering instrumentals of any sort (from Linkin Park to Riverdance to Final Fantasy and back again). I've played in a game set in the late 90's, in a modified World of Darkness setting, where the GM played music from that time period, depending on our location. We spent a lot of time listening to hip-hop and urban-style music the more into the city we went, club music (despite our best intentions), and church music. Strange mix, but it helped the mood a lot.

Even when I was doing the soundtrack for my Final Fantasy game, and I was picking out individual pieces of music for each scene and character and the like, I tried to pick music that would catch their attention, and then fade into the background very well. I tried to stay away from music with words for that purpose, because then you'll find yourself listening to the words instead of the game. At least I end up doing that, if I'm not careful.

But I think in a modern game and an urban setting, that kind of music would really add to the atmosphere, if used correctly.


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## ergeheilalt (Mar 10, 2004)

I myself am a big fan of the whining, angst filled, "no one understands me" punk/metal music. I also like the old rock stuff from back in the day. I listen to it when I read, study, surf the net, etc.

One thing I cannot do is game with it. I turn on my LotR soundtracks or some classical music and go from there. When I'm dming, on of my little inventions I made with the use of flash is a music board that allows me to switch between combat music, to city music, to traveling through the countryside. My players enjoy it and I think it may lend to a bit more concentration.

That, and the LotR soundtrack is just cool 
Erge


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## TSL (Mar 10, 2004)

I usually don't do this - but this thread just begs for it.

Y'all need to check dis out, aight?   

Wyrd is Bond 




Rap for the gaming table in spades.


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## Henry (Mar 10, 2004)

TSL said:
			
		

> I usually don't do this - but this thread just begs for it.
> 
> Y'all need to check dis out, aight?




Oh. My. God.

Now THAT'S an original RPG concept!


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## Barak (Mar 10, 2004)

Well the only musical constant in our gaming group is that at every gaming session, the host has to put in his "Best of Funk" CD at least once.  "She's a Brickhouse", "Shaft" and "Everybody loves Kung-Fu fighting" are three of the tracks, just to give you an idea.

It wouldn't be a gaming session otherwise.  Weirdly, the rest of the time it's usually heavy metal or -some- rap that is played.  But it's not for ambiance, it's mostly for background noise.


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## dreaded_beast (Mar 10, 2004)

Thanks for all the interesting replies!

I didn't realize there were so many eclectic listeners here at EN World.

Although I may never play rap/hip-hop at the table (my only player, although she doesn't hate it, she is not a big fan either) I've always wondered what it would be like to play in such a game.

If I did use such music, I would probably go more for the instrumental beats more for background music or to set the mood. No lyrics.

This reminds me of the time I tried to freestyle some at the local karaoke hang-out about some DND themes, I think some of it went like this:

Insanely BAD and HORRIBLE freestyle alert!

(I was really drunk at the time, but for some reason I remember some of it, or at least some unreasonable facsimile  )

Hehe, forgot the Invis text:



Spoiler



like a paladin in hell
holy avenger +5
stay alive
let me ride
on my mount
down for the count
don't count me out
outsiders, outriders
feel my pain
far removed
from my prime material plane
when i got these fiends
fiendin for my soul
lord let me roll
with my mind whole
from this hole
in my chest
fiends from the pit
make spit my rhymes
one more time
see you in hell sunshine


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## Arnwyn (Mar 10, 2004)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> For myself, while I enjoy rock and roll/heavy metal as well, I also get strong feelings and emotions while listening to rap/hip-hop. While almost every gamer I have come accross either detests rap/hip-hop or at best, is ambivalent, I was wondering if anyone ever toyed with this idea.
> 
> On a similar note, I have been enjoying the recent "trend" of mixing kung-fu flix with hip-hop. Do you think the same could be done for DND?



Uh... no. (Not for me, at least. How awful.)


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## Desdichado (Mar 10, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Keeping in mind that in the 80's (the biggest period for RPG's to date) the majority of gamers were white males who listened to metal and "hair bands", it makes sense the prevalent taste in the gaming community for rock and metal. Heck, my high school and college groups were the same way - AC/DC was king.



Yeah, but there's little in common between 80s hair bands and the kind of black metal and stuff that gamers typically trot out these days.  I'm not sure that fans of AC/DC in the 80s are fans of groups modern day heavy metal today.


			
				Henry said:
			
		

> Me, I was a freak for ANYTHING 80's music - the nascent hip-hop, the pop, the new wave, the punk, etc. Beastie Boys, Run DMC, Kurtis Blow, Slick Rick, all were cool as  to me - they still are.



I'm still an 80s music freak as well.  In fact, it looks like I'm on tap to spin for an 80s dance for a bunch of folks my age (late 20s, early 30s) here locally because I'm as notorious as Duran Duran for my 80s music predilections.


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## dreaded_beast (Mar 10, 2004)

TSL said:
			
		

> I usually don't do this - but this thread just begs for it.
> 
> Y'all need to check dis out, aight?
> 
> ...




Shadowrun for the Hip-Hop generation? 

Too bad this isn't d20. (or is it?)


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## shadow (Mar 10, 2004)

I just got a new idea for a character concept - a rapping bard!  No more wussy lute playing bards, my bard will be a hard core gangsta' rapper!


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## The Mirrorball Man (Mar 10, 2004)

shadow said:
			
		

> I just got a new idea for a character concept - a rapping bard!  No more wussy lute playing bards, my bard will be a hard core gangsta' rapper!



One of my NPCs, a slightly irritating bard who used to call himself "the Dervish of Words" was based on spoken word artist Saul Williams. Close enough.


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## Kid Socrates (Mar 10, 2004)

For some reason, a rapping bard really makes me think of the scene in Robin Hood: Men in Tights, with the narrator (or whatever he was) telling the story via cheesy rap. I need to see that movie again.


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## Zoatebix (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm never going to use this in a game, but I am so bookmarking wyrd is bond.

Does the flutter of joy my heart felt when Ottergame bashed so-called 'alternative' radio make me some kind of hipster?  That's really not what I'm going for.  And does anyone else get depressed when they hear The Clash on a classic rock station?  It's usually one of their sillier songs off of Combat Rock, like "Rock the Casbah," - but that record's younger than me!  Does that make me 'classic George'?   

U2 is more understandable on a classic rock station, and I guess I don't mind being older than those songs - but the Clash!?  "I fought the Law," "Give 'em Enough Rope," capital-P-Punk-as-all-get-out-the Clash?

Anywho, I think if you pay enough attention to your soundtrack, keep the volume down, and you can control the music selection without really distracting the players, you can get away with ANY kind of music in any genre of play.  

I've had plenty of varied soundtracks in play before, but the best examples of musical mixing and possible genre clashing I can think of are from film: two films by Terrance Malick, and two impeccably edited and well-directed Anime television series with scores composed by Yoko Kanno: The Vision of Escaflowne, and Cowboy Bebop.

Badlands is set during the late 1950s in the, well, badlands of South Dakota and Montana.  The music is primarily contemporary small ensemble 'classical' music, with some kind of slight non-Western influence (I haven't read up on the composer, sorry), and the main theme is lively and upbeat, even though the film is about a killing spree.  The musical tone shifts dramatically at a couple of points - there's some period 50s pop music, and an entire scene based around one Nat King Cole song on the radio.  Another scene uses a piece of classical choral/orchestral sacred music (It's been a while since I've seen the film, so I could be remembering this wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's choral sacred music).  Now, I don't have much to go on besides my opinion, but I feel that these big shifts really added to the film.

The second Mallick film takes place during WWI on Guadalcanal.  Mallick got Hans Zimmer -the dude who writes the ridiculous bombastic music for stuff like The Rock- to write what is possibly the most sensitive and tranquil music of his career - it's sublime.  The shifts in mood are less drastic, but could be jarring if taken out of context.  The soundtrack also uses the theme from Charles Ives "The Unanswered Question," - a modern, somewhat atonal work - "In Paradiso," the last movement from Faure's Requiem circa 1885, contemporary sacred choral music by Arvo Part, and _finally_ traditional Melanesian choir chant!

Kanno's compositions are even more disparate.  For the fantasy show, Escaflowne, her soundtrack is primarily recorded with the Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra and Chorus and an Italian chamber orchestra.  It also features hard industrial electronica, soaring (and thankfully non-annoying) J-pop, a kitschy synthesizer number, some soft-rock, some techno, some jazzy stuff, and an opening theme song that features a bagpipe break (well, at least in the CD version .

For the science fiction end of the spectrum, any given episode of Cowboy Bebop could contain Dixieland, big band swing, Latin, and bebop jazz, and faux-country hoe-down music - AND, for example, an episode that has some of the above (including the country), plus an Ave Maria, a piano and treble-voice choir piece, and a slow popish song that relies heavily on pipe organ.  Elsewhere in the series, harmonica blues, some not-quite bluegrass, some electronica, and driving instrumental heavy metal are all explored.

I really feel that the music adds to both of these shows immensely - maybe even more than the characterization in the case of Cowboy Bebop.  All this in spite of the jarring mix of styles.

I really think that a DM could effectively use Bach, Bad Religion, The Buena Vista Social Club, the bit that plays over Boromir's last stand, Blackalicious, Brahams, and Ben Folds Five in a single gaming session of any genre.

That said, I've been up for 20-ish hours, and I wrote this while exhausted.
-z


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## Cowpie Zombie (Mar 10, 2004)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> My group is comprised of metalheads. We are sick enough of cRap in the mainstream media that we might hurt someone who snuck any into the CD changer.




AMEN! Even seeing the words "rap" and "hip hop" on this group made my stomach churn with disgust.


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## Cowpie Zombie (Mar 10, 2004)

shadow said:
			
		

> I just got a new idea for a character concept - a rapping bard!  No more wussy lute playing bards, my bard will be a hard core gangsta' rapper!




Hee hee...I laughed out loud when I read this one.   

"Lez go, homies...bust a cap in that orc's ass, ah-iiight?"


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## jessemock (Mar 10, 2004)

Cowpie Zombie said:
			
		

> AMEN! Even seeing the words "rap" and "hip hop" on this group made my stomach churn with disgust.





Whatcha gonna do? Rap is not afraid of you
Beat is for Sonny Bono, beat is for Yoko Ono
Run DMC first said a deejay could be a band
Stand on its feet, get you out your seat
Beat is for Eric B, and L.L. as well, hell
Wax is for Anthrax, still it can rock bells
Ever forever, universal, it will sell
Time for me to exit, Terminator X-it

_Turn it up! Bring tha noize!_


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## Henry (Mar 10, 2004)

jessemock said:
			
		

> Whatcha gonna do? Rap is not afraid of you...[/I]




Not bad! You freestyle that, or get it from someone?


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## Hida Bukkorosu (Mar 10, 2004)

If you're playing a d20 Modern game where urban street culture features heavily, then yes rap would be appropriate.

For high fantasy?  No.


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## Ottergame (Mar 10, 2004)

I wasn't bashing just alternative.  That, cRap, hip-hop, pop, heavy metal, J-pop... all that music sets a really raw tone to play a game by.  Music effects people, weither they realize it or not, and it shows in their playstyle.


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## jessemock (Mar 10, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Not bad! You freestyle that, or get it from someone?





Let's just call it '3rd Edition'.


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## Zoatebix (Mar 10, 2004)

Cowpie Zombie said:
			
		

> "Lez go, homies...bust a cap in that orc's ass, ah-iiight?"




<sigh> Dude can take a bullet.  Doesn't mean dude can rap.  

Yeah, a friend just turned me on to the Lifesavas, who have a whole insulting gangsta rappers, and satirically biting the egoism shallowness that's running rampant in the mainstream.  The sad thing is, they used the word "thug" or "thuggity" for 75% of the words in the last verse, and still manage to show that they have a much more interesting rythmic sense than any rap you could find on MTV today.

Or something like that.
-z

Damn you Itunes music store!  You don't have Blackalicious's Alphabet Aerobics!  (shameless plug: you _do_ have 15 of the 17 tracks from Blazing Arrow, though)


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## sjmiller (Mar 10, 2004)

I guess I am pretty old and set in my gaming ways.  I do not understand this need to play music while you are gaming.  To me, and the large number of musicians I have had in my games, it would prove a distraction, to say the least.  When did this trend towards playing "mood" music start?  I see it mentioned online quite often, and I have even seen some articles in Dragon about it, but I just can't figure out the justification.  The groups I have played in tend to concentrate on what is going on in the game, and less about seeing an "atmosphere" or "mood".


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## Grizpapa (Mar 10, 2004)

jessemock said:
			
		

> Let's just call it '3rd Edition'.




That's would be: Bring Tha Noize (w/Anthrax)

by: Public Enemy

From: Apocalypse 91...The Enemy Strikes Black


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## Zoatebix (Mar 10, 2004)

Ottergame said:
			
		

> I wasn't bashing just alternative.  That, cRap, hip-hop, pop, heavy metal, J-pop... all that music sets a really raw tone to play a game by.  Music effects people, weither they realize it or not, and it shows in their playstyle.




I wasn't implying that you were saving any of those from your wrath!  I was just happy that the first target was a radio station.  I was just happy that you seemed to express, in some way, that you would rather have people NOT listening to what Infinity Broadcasting -or whoever else it was- would have us hear, just so they can try to sell us boring, empty, soulless garbage.  

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was putting words in your mouth - it was definately not my intent.
-z


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## Ottergame (Mar 10, 2004)

It's a Clearchannel station, it's one of those rotten stations that plays the same crappy 6 songs every hour.


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## babomb (Mar 10, 2004)

Well, I'm not crazy about rap/hip hop -- at least, not the mainstream stuff they play on the radio nowadays; I'm down with some of the old school stuff like Sugar Hill Gang, Grandmaster Flash, and Run DMC. Personally, I find that pretty much any music with lyrics would distract me from gaming, so the only music I'd play in the background would be classical or incidental music (music designed to be in the background, like in movies). Of course, I tried that once and my players didn't like it, so no music for us.

However, during a particularly silly session, we had an in-game freestyle rap contest. My paladin's was something like

My alignment is lawful good.
I represent my boys in the 'hood.
I detect evil,
Smite it too.
And if you're hurt,
Then I can heal you.


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## Zoatebix (Mar 10, 2004)

I am so subscribed to this thread.  The Paladin quote gave me a great laugh.


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## SSquirrel (Mar 11, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
> 
> ooh ooh! Doctor Octagon's Octagoneocologyst, too! Get the 20-track version with the DJ Shadow mix of "waiting list"... I haven't heard the whole album, but I've heard nothing but good things about it.
> -z



 Honestly I would worry about everyone falling under Kool Keith's sway especially on songs like Earth People *grin*  *fallsintohypnoticgroove*

 I had forgotten he did Diesel Power on Prodigy's Fat of the Land album (Firestarter, Breathe, etc) until I pulled that album out recently.  Another great Keith track.  

 I would second Endtroducing and add the UNKLE album he was involved with, including Mike D and Thom Yorke from Radiohead.  If you're looking for something a bit silly you can always go for Digital Underground (Sons of the P and Sex Packets are both wonderful albums) but you could always cut right to the heart of things and pull out some P Funk *grin*  I bought Tear the Roof Off 74-80 recently and it's amazing double disc collection of most of Parliament's best.

 Hagen


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## The Mirrorball Man (Mar 11, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> ooh ooh!  Doctor Octagon's Octagoneocologyst, too!  Get the 20-track version with the DJ Shadow mix of "waiting list"...  I haven't heard the whole album, but I've heard nothing but good things about it.



If you want a Dan the Automator album, the Dr. Octagon project is fine, but in my opinion, Deltron 3030 is much better as an album, as background music at the game table, and even as an inspiration for the game itself (Deltron 3030 is a tongue-in-cheek hip hop sci-fi epic tale...)


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## Knightcrawler (Mar 11, 2004)

Heck one of the adventuring groups I played in was named after a Metallica song.

Damage Incorporated


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## megamania (Mar 11, 2004)

Love hip-hop but it generally dosen't work with DnD.  The only exception I can think of is when I did glad. games at a convention.  Even then the "intro" music was set to represent the teams of the competition.

Ironman  team had a golem
Ace of Spades   just plain fun
I forget the hip hop song I used.  I think it was a 50 cent /Eminem combo.  Group with daggers and cross bows (in place of knives and hand guns).

Tacky but for a con it was fun.

ended with what else...We are the Champions :\


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## megamania (Mar 11, 2004)

babomb said:
			
		

> However, during a particularly silly session, we had an in-game freestyle rap contest. My paladin's was something like
> 
> My alignment is lawful good.
> I represent my boys in the 'hood.
> ...




Ba-chew Ba-chew ba-chew-chew

My alignment is lawful good.
I represent my boys in the 'hood.
I detect evil,
Smite it too.
And if you're hurt,
Then I can heal you

Ba-chew Ba-chew ba-Chew-chew
Draaaaaa-do Draaaaa-do
Ba-chew Ba-chew Ba-chew-chew


sorry...couldn't resist.


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## Christian Walker (Mar 11, 2004)

A little Wu Tang Clan at the table never hurt nobody.


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## Olive (Mar 11, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Heavy metal seems to be the "in" thing for RPGers.




I know this has already been discussed, but the metal/RPG thing seemed very different in the UK to the states. Or more the gaming/metal thing. GW teamed up with classic grind/deathmetal label Earache to put out a botlthrower album, and almost every kid I ever met from the UK who was into GW stuff was a fan of that kind of metal. And if you ain't ever heard anything on Earache, well trust me when I say it doesn't sound much like AC/DC... it doesn't sound much like a lot of the black metal stuff gothy gamers liek today either, but the roots have more in common.



			
				sjmiller said:
			
		

> I guess I am pretty old and set in my gaming ways.  I do not understand this need to play music while you are gaming.




I don't think it has anything to do with age. People have been playing music at games since forever. That said I agree with you: I would never play music at a game (an RPG anyway, a wargame is different). It would distract people too much. Not to metion that finding music all my group would liek would be nigh on impossible.



			
				Grizpapa said:
			
		

> That's would be: Bring Tha Noize (w/Anthrax)
> 
> by: Public Enemy
> 
> From: Apocalypse 91...The Enemy Strikes Black




Or originally without Anthrax on _It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back_ from 1988...


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## SSquirrel (Mar 11, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> I know this has already been discussed, but the metal/RPG thing seemed very different in the UK to the states. Or more the gaming/metal thing. GW teamed up with classic grind/deathmetal label Earache to put out a botlthrower album, and almost every kid I ever met from the UK who was into GW stuff was a fan of that kind of metal. And if you ain't ever heard anything on Earache, well trust me when I say it doesn't sound much like AC/DC... it doesn't sound much like a lot of the black metal stuff gothy gamers liek today either, but the roots have more in common.



 Old school Pitch Shifter is a good example of what Earache is.  



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> I don't think it has anything to do with age. People have been playing music at games since forever. That said I agree with you: I would never play music at a game (an RPG anyway, a wargame is different). It would distract people too much. Not to metion that finding music all my group would liek would be nigh on impossible.



 Had a friend who used to run a World of Darkness (Vampire etc) game and he always had specific moods he was trying to evoke with different sessions.  Well I had about 300 cds then (1100 or so now) and he had a decent mix of soundtracks by and large.  So we'd use KMFDM or Prince or Underworld along with themes from Dune or BRaveheart etc and just made these really bizarre situational mixtapes.  90 or 100 minute tapes in an autoreverse player.  Turned down so it was noticable but not distractingly so.  If they were entering a club, then naturally we would turn it up.

 The group imploded to the soundtrack once.  He used Skunk Anansise's "Feed" from the Strange Days soundtrack and one of the characters was a Technocrat double agent and the group was assaulted by a bunch of the T1000 style borgs when someone activated some explosives and boom.  Great song but was NEVER put on another mix tape to avoid just this heh.

 Hagen


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## Numion (Mar 11, 2004)

Cowpie Zombie said:
			
		

> AMEN! Even seeing the words "rap" and "hip hop" on this group made my stomach churn with disgust.




I've always wondered why metalheads are the most intolerant people when it comes to music.


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## Snoweel (Mar 11, 2004)

Mirth said:
			
		

> Start out with DJ Shadow's _Endtroducing_




While I think of it, could you tell me where the sample at the end of track 8 (I never know songs' names since the CDs live in my car while the covers go straight in my wardrobe) comes from?



			
				EricNoah said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, that's right! I have to see that movie again...




What frickin movie are you guys on about? Judging by that screen capture, it seems hilarious.



			
				Numion said:
			
		

> I've always wondered why metalheads are the most intolerant people when it comes to music.




I've often wondered that myself. It's probably similar to how old people are intolerant of the young and how cultures that ran the world hundreds of years ago hate the modern West.

Must really suck to be superceded.   



			
				SSquirrel said:
			
		

> add the UNKLE album he was involved with




Speaking of which, if anybody has the Psyence Fiction limited edition (containing 'Be There' with Ian Brown), I'd *so* love it if you would let me know and we could trade a couple of emails IYKWIMAITYD. In truth, I'm just looking for that one track.


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## twwtww (Mar 11, 2004)

*Rap @ da table*

Yeah, when me and my dawgs is doin' some city adventures we love to listen to rap at the table. Throw on "Cop Killa" when we have to fight da town watch or some "Snoop" when we hit the brothels. Nuttin' makes a driveby from a wagon with crossbows like some 'Lil Kim and of course you be needin' some "50 cent" and "Mo' Money, Mo' Problems" when splittin' da loot after bustin' some caps on some tricks who was flossin'!

So in a nutshell, hell no we don't listen to (C)rap at the table. It's bad enough R(ap)TV, er I mean MTV forces it on you 24/7 as it is. And god forbid you turn on the radio, it's all you hear. Cripes for the longest time I thought those long haired, one chord, speed metal freaks were the most talentless musicians on the planet. They have been replaced by almost any (c)rapper.



"I've always wondered why metalheads are the most intolerant people when it comes to music."

That's easy. For YEARS Metal was crapped on by everyone. The metal bands & fans paid thier dues. All of the sudden rap/hip-hop shows up and because it's predominently Black, people are scared to tell you how bad it really sucks for fear of being branded a racist. I listen to some Run DMC & Sugar Hill Gang, but so much of the new stuff is horrible. All you have to do to be a rap star is buy your way onto MTV and you are guaranteed to sell a million CDs. Metal bands toured full time, clawed and scratched to get 1/100 of that exposure. It's no wonder Metal fans revile rap/hip-hop. When your claim to fame is being able to simply rhyme words to the same back beat that every other rapper uses, you don't deserve respect or toleration!


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## Snoweel (Mar 11, 2004)

Aww, come on dude...

Music that sells well, does so because it *sounds good* and therefore people wanna hear it.

Don't confuse cause and effect, eh?

I mean really, if I form a band/group/solo act, and nobody listens to my stuff and I stay broke, it's for one reason and one reason only - it's because I suck.


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## Desdichado (Mar 11, 2004)

twwtww said:
			
		

> That's easy. For YEARS Metal was crapped on by everyone. The metal bands & fans paid thier dues. All of the sudden rap/hip-hop shows up and because it's predominently Black, people are scared to tell you how bad it really sucks for fear of being branded a racist. I listen to some Run DMC & Sugar Hill Gang, but so much of the new stuff is horrible. All you have to do to be a rap star is buy your way onto MTV and you are guaranteed to sell a million CDs. Metal bands toured full time, clawed and scratched to get 1/100 of that exposure. It's no wonder Metal fans revile rap/hip-hop. When your claim to fame is being able to simply rhyme words to the same back beat that every other rapper uses, you don't deserve respect or toleration!



Give me a freakin' break.  For _years_ metal's been the ultimate bad boy of music.  It hasn't been crapped on by anyone.  Groups like Metallica have been huge for the better part of two decades, for example.


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## twwtww (Mar 11, 2004)

Yeah, I guess that's true, that would explain why bands that have been around for years and don't do jack selling, sell once they get discovered. NOT! 

It's the support of radio and MTV (along with word of mouth and such) that sells. Or are you saying that there are no bands with ability out there that aren't selling albums?

That's ludicrious. If you aren't known, you can't sell.


"Give me a freakin' break. For years metal's been the ultimate bad boy of music. It hasn't been crapped on by anyone. Groups like Metallica have been huge for the better part of two decades, for example. "

Not bad, but how long have they been around before they were huge? And they _were_ crapped on by critics, parents and radio. Along with Megadeth, Slayer, Queensryche, Saxon, Motorhead and 100's of others. What do YOU see on MTV more or hear on the radio more, metal or rap?


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## Desdichado (Mar 11, 2004)

twwtww said:
			
		

> Not bad, but how long have they been around before they were huge? And they _were_ crapped on by critics, parents and radio. Along with Megadeth, Slayer, Queensryche, Saxon, Motorhead and 100's of others. What do YOU see on MTV more or hear on the radio more, metal or rap?



Dude, being "crapped" on by critics, parents and radio is a plus for their target audience.  And that's nothing compared to the "crapping on" that rap has had over the years anyway.


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## Mirth (Mar 11, 2004)

Snoweel said:
			
		

> While I think of it, could you tell me where the sample at the end of track 8 (I never know songs' names since the CDs live in my car while the covers go straight in my wardrobe) comes from?




That's the thing about Shadow, he doesn't disclose where most of his samples come from. In the _Scratch_ documentary I mentioned earlier (which I recommend everyone watch before they diss hip-hop altogether (rap is a subgenre of hip-hop btw, just to be clear)), Shadow does most of his interview from the basement of a record store where he finds all of his obscure samples. It is literally a maze of vinyl stacks and Shadow won't reveal where the store is or what it's name is, because it took him 5 years of cajoling the owner before he was even allowed down into the basement.



			
				Snoweel said:
			
		

> What frickin movie are you guys on about? Judging by that screen capture, it seems hilarious.




_Office Space_ by Mike Judge of _Beavis & Butthead_ fame. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant comedy, of which the screen capture is the best scene.



			
				Snoweel said:
			
		

> Speaking of which, if anybody has the Psyence Fiction limited edition (containing 'Be There' with Ian Brown)...




I _might_ have that, but I have to check. Feel free to email me, or PM me on NKL if you want.

Also, for the person who recommended Dr. Octagon, I would go a step further and pick up _The Instrumentalyst: Octagon Beats_ instead, which is all of _The Octagonecologyst_ minus Kool Keith's vocals. Very cool background music from Dan the Automator & DJ QBert. Also Dan & DJ Shadow did a project together called _Bombay the Hard Way: Guns, Cars & Sitars_ a simply amazing remix album of a bunch of crazy Bollywood films from India.

I could go on and on about turntablist music and old school hip-hop, as well as any number of other musical genres, but I'll leave it at that right now. Having worked in book & music retail for over 20 years and owned my own store, it is a passion of mine, so I need to know when to stop 

I love metal & country too, btw... just not the mainstream stuff, which is exactly like my tastes in hip-hop. There's plenty of good stuff out there that Mtv and radio don't play, you just have to work to find it.

Feel free to ask questions,

Jay

mirthcard [at] yahoo [dot] com


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## JPL (Mar 11, 2004)

Never tried rap at the game table.  

When I saw the first TV ad for the video game "Def Jam Vendetta", with "X Gonna Give it to Ya", I thought, that's what I oughta run, using d20 Modern / Blood and Fists.  And someday I might.

In a couple of weeks, I'm running a one-shot Jonny Quest-meets-Stargate kinda thing for d20 Modern.  I plan on recording a soundtrack and giving copies to the players as keepsakes.  No rap, though.  Mostly B3 stuff -- Charlie Hunter, Medeski Martin and Wood, Niacin, maybe even some Booker T and the MGs.  I'll try to stick to the more atmospheric material rather than the dancable stuff.


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## Numion (Mar 11, 2004)

twwtww said:
			
		

> It's the support of radio and MTV (along with word of mouth and such) that sells. Or are you saying that there are no bands with ability out there that aren't selling albums?
> 
> That's ludicrious. If you aren't known, you can't sell.




I call BS on this one. If MTV suddenly started only to play stuff like Slayer, the result wouldn't be platinum sales for Slayer but about zero viewers of MTV.

The idea that MTV somehow forces people to listen and dig a certain band is another conspiracy theory .. wanna buy a tinfoil hat?   Surely the right publicity can make or break a certain band, but it couldn't change the whole youth culture from hiphop and pop to Slayer. (Just naming that band because I have one of their albums .. and it's no wonder they didn't sell millions).


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## jessemock (Mar 11, 2004)

> I've always wondered why metalheads are the most intolerant people when it comes to music.




You try being macho with all that girly long hair.



			
				Numion said:
			
		

> I call BS on this one. If MTV suddenly started only to play stuff like Slayer, the result wouldn't be platinum sales for Slayer but about zero viewers of MTV.
> 
> The idea that MTV somehow forces people to listen and dig a certain band is another conspiracy theory .. wanna buy a tinfoil hat?   Surely the right publicity can make or break a certain band, but it couldn't change the whole youth culture from hiphop and pop to Slayer. (Just naming that band because I have one of their albums .. and it's no wonder they didn't sell millions).




Aw.  I totally wanted to agree with you--but then you had to go and use Slayer for your example.  Slayer is secretly the most beloved band on earth.  You'll never find a more diverse audience than at a Slayer show.

And, let's face it, what would Channel Zero have been without Angel of Death?

Anyway, back to the topic--yeah right!


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## Kemrain (Mar 11, 2004)

I think someone'd need hospitalization if anyone brought rap to my table, but that's me.  I end up playing the seemingly traditional movie soundtracks (LoTR), though I throw in some Star Wars music, too.  Also love to play anything off the Fight Club soundtrack (that's the Dust Brothers), and 3 albums of a (seemingly) obscure ambient band called Shinjuku Thief (found on Dorobo Records, though I can't seem to BUY anything from them.)

Kemrain the Deaf.


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## EricNoah (Mar 11, 2004)

Now that Dreaded_Beast has gotten his answer, and we're starting to drift off I'm gonna slide this over to Off Topic where you can go nuts talking about music genres etc.


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## Mirth (Mar 11, 2004)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I think someone'd need hospitalization if anyone brought rap to my table, but that's me...Also love to play anything off the Fight Club soundtrack (that's the Dust Brothers)...




Hate to break it to you, but The Dust Brothers are hip-hop. Their biggest claim to fame is the fact that they produced _Paul's Boutique_ by the Beastie Boys. Welcome to the fold.


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## BrooklynKnight (Mar 11, 2004)

I embrace rock and metal for my modern games or intense combat scenes in fantasy games. Hip-Hop/rap is almost always saved for the idiot bad guys or the fool npcs that make complete idiots of themselves.

any player bringing hip-hop or rap to my games is immediatly banned from the game.


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## Mirth (Mar 11, 2004)

JPL said:
			
		

> Never tried rap at the game table.
> 
> When I saw the first TV ad for the video game "Def Jam Vendetta", with "X Gonna Give it to Ya", I thought, that's what I oughta run, using d20 Modern / Blood and Fists.  And someday I might.
> 
> In a couple of weeks, I'm running a one-shot Jonny Quest-meets-Stargate kinda thing for d20 Modern.  I plan on recording a soundtrack and giving copies to the players as keepsakes.  No rap, though.  Mostly B3 stuff -- Charlie Hunter, Medeski Martin and Wood, Niacin, maybe even some Booker T and the MGs.  I'll try to stick to the more atmospheric material rather than the dancable stuff.




If you dig the B3, you might want to check out a couple of Blue Note compilations called _So Blue, So Funky: Heroes of the Hammond, Volumes 1 & 2._ I think they are still in print and, if so, they should be available separately. Artists include Big John Patton (my personal favorite), Jimmy McGriff, Jimmy Smith, Freddie Roach, Fred Jackson, Baby Face Willette, Larry Young, George Braith, Lou Donaldson, Brother Jack McDuff, Grant Green (my favorite jazz guitarist, who often had Big John Patton on Hammond with him), Curtis Amy, Paul Bryant, Richard "Groove" Holmes and Johnny Lytle. Fantastic stuff. Also if you're a MMW fan, be sure to check out John Scofield's _A Go Go_ where Medeski, Martin and Wood play the backing band to Scofield's funked out lead jazz guitar.


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## Desdichado (Mar 11, 2004)

Well, since we're officially off topic now...

Well, I don't really have anything profound that I didn't already say.  The only Angry White Male music that I like (hey, didn't those guys bring Newt Gingrich into power anyway?) is Futurepop, EBM and some other, similar Industrial outfits.


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## evildm (Mar 11, 2004)

For fantasy games I primarily use instrumental music (as of late it's been E.S Posthumus and Apocalyptica), and some rock here and there. I find that hip hop would likely break the mood I'm aiming for, but that's just me. 

On the flip side, I would probably use quite a bit of rap and whatnot for a modern or cyberpunk campaign, along with my rock. In fact, I've been thoroughly addicted to Buck 65's Talkin' Honky Blues (go get it, now. It's great stuff) lately and I would love to use it as mood music for a modern campaign.


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## Revenge of the Bjorn (Mar 11, 2004)

I've never used music at the gaming table, cause the group would get way too distracted (a bunch of huge music fans) and it would likely degenerate into me doing an (awful) Axl Rose impersonation. But that said my gamer friends are predominantly fans of rock (in any form).  It'd take me too long to list everything so I'll just list the ones that sound least right next to each other: The Darkness (I'm gonna have no friends for saying that, but I don't mind) the White Stripes, Queen, Tenacious D, Nirvana, Black Sabbath, Tool, The Cult, Therion (The only death/black/grind metal band I'm certain I like.  The others its hard to tell.  And besides a penchant for keyboards in the black metal realms I can't tell the three apart by sound therefore I consider them all the same).  And after all that I like some country and bluegrass although I haven't yet admitted this to my friends.      Also on the subjec of relating AC/DC to today's more...shall we say extreme forms of metal, the biggest Death(and all similiar forms) metal fan I know is a big fan of stuff like AC/DC, Sabbath, and Led Zeppelin, so you never know.  

I have to wonder though any of you out there Rainbow or Dio fans or would that put you to far over the geek-line?    (no offense to anyone.  I happen to love Man on the Silver mountain, so who am I to talk anyway?)  
Wow, that was long winded.


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## Desdichado (Mar 11, 2004)

Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> I have to wonder though any of you out there Rainbow or Dio fans or would that put you to far over the geek-line?



Devo yes.  Dio no.


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## Mirth (Mar 11, 2004)

Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> I've never used music at the gaming table, cause the group would get way too distracted (a bunch of huge music fans) and it would likely degenerate into me doing an (awful) Axl Rose impersonation. But that said my gamer friends are predominantly fans of rock (in any form).  It'd take me too long to list everything so I'll just list the ones that sound least right next to each other: The Darkness (I'm gonna have no friends for saying that, but I don't mind) the White Stripes, Queen, Tenacious D, Nirvana, Black Sabbath, Tool, The Cult, Therion (The only death/black/grind metal band I'm certain I like.  The others its hard to tell.  And besides a penchant for keyboards in the black metal realms I can't tell the three apart by sound therefore I consider them all the same).  And after all that I like some country and bluegrass although I haven't yet admitted this to my friends.      Also on the subjec of relating AC/DC to today's more...shall we say extreme forms of metal, the biggest Death(and all similiar forms) metal fan I know is a big fan of stuff like AC/DC, Sabbath, and Led Zeppelin, so you never know.
> 
> I have to wonder though any of you out there Rainbow or Dio fans or would that put you to far over the geek-line?    (no offense to anyone.  I happen to love Man on the Silver mountain, so who am I to talk anyway?)
> Wow, that was long winded.




Huge fan of the White Stripes here  I've got just about every vinyl and cd release they've ever put out. Their version of Dolly Parton's song "Jolene" is beyond great. Saw them three times live, too. Totally frickin' amazing live act. 

Also I love (in order  ): Led Zeppelin, Nirvana, AC/DC, Black Sabbath, Tenacious D (get the DVD!), The Darkness (don't be ashamed, they roxxor), Guns N' Roses and Tool (although I really only like AEnima and afterwards). Not familiar with Therion (gonna check 'em out now though, thanks) and can't say that I dig Rainbow or Dio very much.

I'm also a big country and bluegrass fan. I've seen Doc Watson about 10 times live and every time I cry. That man is a living saint. His version of Gershwin's "Summertime" is by far my favorite.

Man, I could talk about music all day. I love, love, love it.


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## ShinHakkaider (Mar 11, 2004)

Wow.

I just find some of the responses to hip-hop in this board just amazing boardering on offensive. 

Banned from the table? 

PsudoEbonics? 

I understand and respect it if people said that they don't get hip-hop or if it's not to their liking but some of the venom here is just incredible. I'm pretty sure that there are a fair amount crap bands or groups in whatever genres that you like so please don't take the stuff that they show on BET or MTV as the best of the genre, it's just the most popular. There are plenty of good hip-hop crews and MC's out there. Dismissing an entire group of anything is just ignorant and wrong. I'm not a metal head but there are some songs that I like that some gaming buddies of mine introduced me to. 

I remember that I'd just finished reading THE STAND and i was at a friends house, a song was playing in the background called Among the Living by Anthrax. I remember listening to the words and going "Oh snap, theyre talking about Randall Flagg!" I know that they did a song about Judge Dredd as well and liking that song too. From there I got introduced to Metallica and Iron Maiden as well. On my ipod the only metal songs that I made sure to put on are from Anthrax, Iron Maiden (run to the Hills is AWESOME) and Metallica (There a b-side of theirs called THE PRINCE that just gets me amped). 

But getting back to the hatred of hip-hop thing, the lack of respect for lyricists just kind of baffles me. I guess poets and bards get the same level of disrespect because there are Mc's out there that can craft stories and twist words around with the best of them. And Metal getting a bad rap? Ninja Please... Hip-Hop is a predominately black art form and we all know that parents (especially parents off impressionable white children) don't want negroes in their childrens heads or in thier homes unless theyre the help. Trust me on that one. To those parents metal may be noise but at least it's not darkie Jungle noise. 

Metal was an out growth of rock and 70's Hard rock so you can say that metal has been around for a long time and has had it's spot in the sun. Hip-hop has been around since the early 70's and has really just recently gotten accepting in the mainstream over the past 5-7 years. Not just because you can see it on MTV, but when you see it become part of the culture. Mostly though you can see it when Madison Avenue and the predominately white owned record labels can make money off of it by making sure that it's everywhere. 

I'll be he first to admit that 90% of the stuff on MTV and BET is garbage, but to me that "hip-hop" is as good as Pop music. That's not real hip-hop, those are just some cats who are in it for the fame, the money and to floss. Most of the good stuff in any genre you have to hunt for. Whether it be metal, gospel, hip-hop, Rock, R&B, Dance, whatever. Dismissing an entire genre due to limted exposure (and MTV and BET are limited) is just, well limited thinking. 
It would be just as messed up if I dismissed gamers based on the guys that show up at the Complete Stratigist here in NY or at the cons that I've been to. And being a minority (black man) within a minority (gamers) and hearing this kind of venom is just disconcerting...


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## Zoatebix (Mar 11, 2004)

twwtww said:
			
		

> [Metallica]... Along with Megadeth, Slayer, Queensryche, Saxon, Motorhead and 100's of others. What do YOU see on MTV more or hear on the radio more, metal or rap?




Don't forget about Judas Priest and the suicide/subliminal message lawsuit.  I had to watch a documentary on that back in 10th-grade comparative politics.  The band members were all really sweet British guys... with tatoos and stuff.

[almost ringo-starr-parody liverpoolish accent] 
"So then the attourney brought out the ghetto" with the accent on the syllable 'to,' "blaster, and started playing one of our songs"
[/almost ringo-starr-parody liverpoolish accent]

Those poor guys... I'm really glad they won the case.

So closer to the original topic - banned from the group for carrying a CD to the table ArthurQ!?  Say it ain't so!

Look, let's go back to the first group I sugeested - Blackalicious.


			
				allmusicguide.com said:
			
		

> Like a few other West Coast rap acts, including the Pharcyde and Jurassic 5, Blackalicious has generally favored what hip-hoppers call the "positive tip"; in other words, its lyrics have often been spiritual and uplifting rather than violent or misogynous. Like a lot of experimental alternative rappers, Blackalicious can be quirky and eccentric; nonetheless, spirituality is a big part of the group's music.




Quirky, funny, *spiritual*!  Not about money, women, cars, sex, drugs, etc.!  One of the tracks on Blazing Arrow samples from the Nighmare Before Christmas, for crissakes!
(well, I think that's what it's from...)

Back to mixing musical styles for effect in general - I'd like to get back to the films I mentioned in my really long post (from page 2, maybe?).  Has anyone else seen the Terrence Malick films, or listened to the Escaflowne or Cowboy Bebop soundtracks and care to comment?  Do they think the low-key pop distracted from the warsaw philharmonic tracks on Escaflowne, or that the Melenesian Chorus jarred against the orchestra in The Thin Red Line, or that the Jazz and the Metal and the Choral didn't go together in Cowboy Bebop?

Okay, I guess Escaflowne is more 'on topic' because it's fantasy... but they're all pretty diverse mixes.  I'd have to say that "The Unanswered Question" vs Faure's Requiem (both classical music) is more jarring than rap vs any other kind of pop.

Okay, that's it - no more longish posts for me - only short ones.
-z


----------



## Zoatebix (Mar 11, 2004)

...Speaking of rap since the 70s, Blackalicious works with Gil Scott-Heron on Blazing Arrow.
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=UIDSUB040403101629100404&sql=Bqj9us33ya3vg

And of course fans of the Darkness have friends here!  Just don't call them a joke-band.

Ah joke bands.  Tenacious D has almost filled the void in my heart formed by the breakup of the Dead Milkmen.  More ironic and deadpan then the already ironic and deadpan punk music genre they worked it.  <Sigh>


----------



## Mirth (Mar 11, 2004)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> But getting back to the hatred of hip-hop thing, the lack of respect for lyricists just kind of baffles me...




Just to be clear from me, I only suggested DJ Shadow and other turntablists because I thought they would make great background noise for gaming. I'm all about a good MC too -- Mos Def, Jurassic 5, Dilated Peoples, The Roots, Talib Kweli are current faves and Beastie Boys, Run DMC, Kurtis Blow, UTFO, LL Cool J are old school faves (I'd throw Milk and Whistle in there too, but I'm afraid those are too obscure  ).

As for close-minded attitudes towards rap, there are close-minded attitudes towards anything so don't let it get you down.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Mar 11, 2004)

ITs more of the 90's rap i hate.....

listening to some old 80s cartoons and watching old tv shows there is some really good lyrical rap.

Back when it was the words that was important and not the "bling bling" or the women wearing fishwire for clothing.

Today rap and hip/hop is one huge euphamism for hate, abuse of women, and sex (well not that music isinst almost always about sex, its just negative sex here), violence, etc etc.

I'll allow some older Run DMC (with Aerosmith ) and Beastie Boys at my table. who doesnt love Beastie Boys' brooklyn song. Or Girls Girls Girls (which was very funny).

Rap is not music. Its just hate and greed that happens to rhyme.

And Tenacious D rules.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 11, 2004)

Mirth said:
			
		

> Just to be clear from me, I only suggested DJ Shadow and other turntablists because I thought they would make great background noise for gaming. I'm all about a good MC too -- Mos Def, Jurassic 5, Dilated Peoples, The Roots, Talib Kweli are current faves and Beastie Boys, Run DMC, Kurtis Blow, UTFO, LL Cool J are old school faves (I'd throw Milk and Whistle in there too, but I'm afraid those are too obscure  ).
> 
> As for close-minded attitudes towards rap, there are close-minded attitudes towards anything so don't let it get you down.





Don't worry, that comment wasnt aimed at you in particular, just toward some of the more venomous responses on the board. Personally I agree with with you on the turntablist stuff but for only for games with a modern setting. I run (or used to) a fair amount of Supers games so when my PC's run into a NPC I usually have that NPC's theme music in my head to try and get his/her/ it's character right. That music can vary from the aforementioned THE PRINCE to John William's IMPERIAL MARCH, to DELTRON 3030 to Company Flow's END TO END BURNERS to At The Drive-In's ONE ARMED SCISSOR. 

I guess it just upset me a little that my attitude seems a little more diverse than that a lot of the people here, which makes me right in a sense to be leery of any new people that I find to game with.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 11, 2004)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> Rap is not music. Its just hate and greed that happens to rhyme.




Sigh...

Whatever...


----------



## Zoatebix (Mar 11, 2004)

*I feel like I have a weight in my chest, but...*



			
				ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> To those parents metal may be noise but at least it's not darkie Jungle noise.



We get the word 'barbarian' from the greek word barbaros "the sounds foreigners make."  Not their language, the sounds they make.  Some form of this idea has permeated Western civilization since our classical roots...  You know what, this is way to big a can of worms for the scope of this thread, and the emphatically non-political nature of these message boards.  We could _maybe_ talk linguistics, cultural studies, anthropology, and literary theory and criticism along this vein - but I really really think we should keep focused on the music.

My hope is that more people will read this thread, people who've already read it will keep reading or read the good parts again, and that everybody will think twice about what they say.  My greatest hope is that there will be people who will listen to something new because of what we say, and the world will be better for it.

Right now, I've got a huge collection of Bad Religion (hard-core punk) that I've only heard a few albums of before, and some Blackalicious to listen to again.

Peace!
-z


----------



## Zoatebix (Mar 11, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Quirky, funny, *spiritual*!  Not about money, women, cars, sex, drugs, etc.!




I quote myself at you, ArthurQ!  I'd have to say that the vast majority of the recordings people have recommended fit the quote, too.  And you can add "glorification of violence" to the list of what it's not about, too.

And does anyone else feel that School of Rock was a fantabulous movie and was a part of one of their best nights out last year?  I didn't even know until after I saw it that it was directed by Richard Linklater!  Dazed and Confused, Waking Life, Slacker - yeah, _that_ dude.

I think it's out on DVD.  I think School of Rock is gettin' back together this weekend...
-z


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 11, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I quote myself at you, ArthurQ!  I'd have to say that the vast majority of the recordings people have recommended fit the quote, too.  And you can add "glorification of violence" to the list of what it's not about, too.
> 
> And does anyone else feel that School of Rock was a fantabulous movie and was a part of one of their best nights out last year?  I didn't even know until after I saw it that it was directed by Richard Linklater!  Dazed and Confused, Waking Life, Slacker - yeah, _that_ dude.
> 
> ...




I havent seen it yet, but I've had friends of mine who are not fans of The D tell me that Jack Black alone is worth it so it's going into my netflix queue.


----------



## Mirth (Mar 11, 2004)

I'm really surprised that nemmerle hasn't dropped into this thread yet.


----------



## SSquirrel (Mar 11, 2004)

Mirth said:
			
		

> That's the thing about Shadow, he doesn't disclose where most of his samples come from. In the _Scratch_ documentary I mentioned earlier (which I recommend everyone watch before they diss hip-hop altogether (rap is a subgenre of hip-hop btw, just to be clear)), Shadow does most of his interview from the basement of a record store where he finds all of his obscure samples. It is literally a maze of vinyl stacks and Shadow won't reveal where the store is or what it's name is, because it took him 5 years of cajoling the owner before he was even allowed down into the basement.



 Chances are quite good that said music store is Amoeba Records in San Francisco.  Moved into an old bowling alley b/c they needed more room.  Massive selection and I know I read that Shadow and most of the Invisible Skratch Pikklez(sp) etc do lots of shopping there.  Altho have you ever seen Jack Danger's collection? He's the guy behind Meat Beat Manifesto.  Dear GOD is that a lot of vinyl.



			
				Mirth said:
			
		

> _Office Space_ by Mike Judge of _Beavis & Butthead_ fame. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant comedy, of which the screen capture is the best scene.



 Been TOO long since I saw that movie last, but while taking out the fax machine Casino style is highly amusing, I know there were funnier moments in the movie.  Don't sell it short, Office Space is godlike heh

 Hagen


----------



## SSquirrel (Mar 11, 2004)

Snoweel said:
			
		

> Speaking of which, if anybody has the Psyence Fiction limited edition (containing 'Be There' with Ian Brown), I'd *so* love it if you would let me know and we could trade a couple of emails IYKWIMAITYD. In truth, I'm just looking for that one track.



 Had top do some diggging but I found my full color Japanese gatefold edition of Psyence Fiction (yes I worked in a music store at the time and also own the UK import...but not the domestic release) and while it has bonus instrumentals for Drums of Death pt 1 and 2, it does not have Be There on it.  Sorry.

 Hagen


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Mar 11, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I quote myself at you, ArthurQ! I'd have to say that the vast majority of the recordings people have recommended fit the quote, too. And you can add "glorification of violence" to the list of what it's not about, too.
> 
> And does anyone else feel that School of Rock was a fantabulous movie and was a part of one of their best nights out last year? I didn't even know until after I saw it that it was directed by Richard Linklater! Dazed and Confused, Waking Life, Slacker - yeah, _that_ dude.
> 
> ...



Zoa, you confuse me.

You're mentioning rock music. Not rap music.
I love rock, and School of Rock was a great movie.
Bad Religion is a great group!

my comments were directed toward the rap genre of the 90's and today.


----------



## Zoatebix (Mar 11, 2004)

Sorry about the confusion!

I'm arguing against the dismissal of all rap, and using my previous posts as examples of what to look for.  I'm sorry that the rest of my post went in a totally different direction.

My other recent statements have been about non-rap music, too, because the thread has turned into a cross-genre free-for-all.  

My response to you, and my general question were in separate paragraphs, and I even addressed the second to 'anyone'.

Am I not aloud to identify with and listen to punk and also listen to rap?   (I like the winky face, but it's hard to see at my screen resolution)

I've talked about 19th and 20th centrury classical music (Gabriel Faure and Charles Ives, respectively), other orchestral and chamber music, Jazz, Yokko Kanno, the Clash, and various rap groups all before my Bad Religion and School of Rock refernces on this thread.  I thought I was a well-established freak by this point   (the tonguey face looks too similar to the big grin on my monitor too    )

So - ummm... yeah.  The quote I took from myself was about Blackalicious.  I didn't mean to imply that I was going to keep talking about rap, I thought it was clear I was referring to "recordings people have recommended" (I quote myselft again!), though I didn't say I wasn't going to recommend any more, nor that I was moving on, so I think I see what confused you.

Sorry!
-z


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn (Mar 12, 2004)

Heya, Mirth.  Just be warned before you put money down on Therion that they're very different from most death metal bands in the vocal area.  They use a huge chorus of almost operatic singers, occasionly with a standard metal type lead (like your Roths, Plants or Dios I s'pose).  I think I read somewhere that their earlier stuff was standard-issue death metal, but I haven't heard those albums so I don't know.  But I get this feeling that operatic metal may not be right for some people so I felt the need to warn you before you put down hard earned money on it or anything.  

Moving on to what other people said:
I was actually a bit dissapointed with School of Rock.  Jack Black being as awesome as he is, I just went in to that movie with hopes set too high.  It was pretty good, though.  I did buy the soundtrack and thoroughly enjoy it. 

On the Original subject: I think the most important thing in terms of music is to ask oneself "Do I like what's coming out of my speakers?"  Too often people are too concerned with "image." Some self-proclaimed hipsters will only listen to punk or indie music and will turn against bands when they supposedly "sell out."  Alot of pop music is trite and soulless, but alot isn't.  So you take the good with the bad.  I often put music on when doing something else so I exerience it more as a background factor, and occasionally I do put on a rap beat. (Although I prefer rock, and I haven't yet found a combo of the two that suits me entirely), and it works, however I'm not sure its the kind of energy one might want for a fantasy game.  Perhaps in a modern game though.  

and something else I wanted to say: 
Pardon my language but has anyone here heard of the ing Champs?


----------



## Zoatebix (Mar 12, 2004)

Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Alot of pop music is trite and soulless, but alot isn't.



Yay!  Anyone else glad that Hot Hot Heat (canadian post-hardcore-ish) and the Roots (a rap _band_) have _finally_ been getting radio play and such?  Anyone wish thay more than just one single from each group was on, so that everyone wouldn't be tired of hearing the same thing over and over?
-z


----------



## Mirth (Mar 12, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Yay!  Anyone else glad that Hot Hot Head (canadian post-hardcore-ish) and the Roots (a rap _band_) have _finally_ been getting radio play and such?  Anyone wish thay more than just one single from each group was on, so that everyone wouldn't be tired of hearing the same thing over and over?
> -z




Hot Hot Heat is a very cool Cure-ish kind of band. I likes. And The Roots are the shiznit. I have all their records. I'm not much of a Jay-Z fan, but I have to give him props for choosing The Roots as his backing band for his Unplugged album. I could give a rat's ass if they get radio play or not, honestly. I gave up listening to most radio years ago. Now I only listen to NPR. I wouldn't mind seeing more videos from those bands, though. Unfortunately, I don't have Mtv2 or MuchMusic


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 12, 2004)

Mirth said:
			
		

> Hot Hot Heat is a very cool Cure-ish kind of band. I likes. And The Roots are the shiznit. I have all their records. I'm not much of a Jay-Z fan, but I have to give him props for choosing The Roots as his backing band for his Unplugged album. I could give a rat's ass if they get radio play or not, honestly. I gave up listening to most radio years ago. Now I only listen to NPR. I wouldn't mind seeing more videos from those bands, though. Unfortunately, I don't have Mtv2 or MuchMusic





I just got the Hot Hot Heat CD the other day, it's not great but I do like a few of the songs though. It's on rotation on my ipod along w/ neko case (a country act). I have the Do You Want More, Illadelph halflife and Things Fall Apart by the Roots on my Ipod as well but I dont have thier latest album yet. I dont listen to radio either, only when I'm in the car with the wife.


----------



## Mirth (Mar 12, 2004)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I just got the Hot Hot Heat CD the other day, it's not great but I do like a few of the songs though. It's on rotation on my ipod along w/ neko case (a country act). I have the Do You Want More, Illadelph halflife and Things Fall Apart by the Roots on my Ipod as well but I dont have thier latest album yet. I dont listen to radio either, only when I'm in the car with the wife.




Neko Case is great too. On the country tip, I like mostly alternative country like Whiskeytown & Ryan Adams, Uncle Tupelo & Wilco & Son Volt & Jay Farrar, Gillian Welch, The Jayhawks, Lucinda Williams, The Handsome Family, Hank Williams III, Wayne Hancock, Trailer Bride, The Derailers and so on and so on. When it comes to classic country, I get a bit more picky --- Johnny Cash, Hank Williams, Willie Nelson, Marty Robbins, Buck Owens are a few I can think of off the top of my head. Not a big fan of mainstream country, although I like Lyle Lovett and Dwight Yoakam (and I have a hidden fondness for Marty Stuart). Shelby Lynne is a hit and miss artist I like most of the time too. _I Am Shelby Lynne_ was a brilliant record. I might add some more later if I think of them.

Edit: I wanted to add that I met my wife when we worked together in a record store  Finding a woman with great taste in music is a must, let me tell you...


----------



## Zoatebix (Mar 12, 2004)

You can't forget Charlie Daniels for classic country!


----------



## Mirth (Mar 12, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> You can't forget Charlie Daniels for classic country!




I can


----------



## Zoatebix (Mar 12, 2004)

I think I like HHH's EP Knock Knock Knock better than Make up the Break Down (or whatever it's called - their both loaned to a friend now).  "Touch You Touch You" is an amazing track, or maybe I'm just a sucker for the triplet and dupal meter cross-rhythms in the introduction.


----------



## Zoatebix (Mar 12, 2004)

noooooooo!  Devil Went Down to Georgia!!!

Okay, that one's not the best choice... but Uneasy Rider is so well written!  Plus it's spoken word, and this _is_ a rap thread   

Maybe I'm partial to uneasy rider 'cause my dad did a cover of it when he was playing in the bars for a living, though I was too young to remember him when he was well-practised enough to do it live.

I've got a Johnny Cash _fanatic_ friend, though, who's really been turning me on to Cash.  He's also the dude who played Kraftwerk's Autobahn for me.  Yay for our collected eclectic tastes.

-z


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## BrooklynKnight (Mar 12, 2004)

I'm more partial to the Devil Went Down to Jamaica


----------



## Snoweel (Mar 12, 2004)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> I'm more partial to the Devil Went Down to Jamaica




I bet you are.



			
				Mirth said:
			
		

> I'm really surprised that nemmerle hasn't dropped into this thread yet.




Or (contact), a rap fanatic and big, big Roots fan.



			
				SSquirrel said:
			
		

> and while it has bonus instrumentals for Drums of Death pt 1 and 2, it does not have Be There on it. Sorry.




Thanks for looking.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Yay! Anyone else glad that Hot Hot Heat (canadian post-hardcore-ish) and the Roots (a rap band) have finally been getting radio play and such? Anyone wish thay more than just one single from each group was on, so that everyone wouldn't be tired of hearing the same thing over and over?




I assume the Roots song to which you refer is The Seed 2.0?

Ironic that it's the one song of theirs to go massive, really, since it's *about* changing musical style (and you have to admit that it is markedly different from their usual stuff) in order to gain recognition.



			
				Mirth said:
			
		

> Finding a woman with great taste in music is a must, let me tell you...




Let me add large breasts to that list...


----------



## frankthedm (Mar 12, 2004)

Davelozzi said:
			
		

> I agree with Snoweel and others that rap is perfect for driving.




Only if its GTA's Joyride.


----------



## Djeta Thernadier (Mar 14, 2004)

We sometimes listen to the Power Rock channel on digital cable...

Although, it's sometimes distracting when a particularly cheesy power ballad comes on....


----------



## evildm (Mar 14, 2004)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> Today rap and hip/hop is one huge euphamism for hate, abuse of women, and sex (well not that music isinst almost always about sex, its just negative sex here), violence, etc etc.
> 
> Rap is not music. Its just hate and greed that happens to rhyme.




While this is entirely your opinion, and I respect that, I'm just curious what your opinion on this stuff would be (check out the audio and video under Show & Tell): http://www.buck65.com

It strikes me as being somewhat removed from the whole hate stuff.


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## BrooklynKnight (Mar 14, 2004)

I'll check that out after i get my cable connection back.


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## Zoatebix (Mar 26, 2004)

*Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!*

If anyone's going to be in the DC area...

April 18th, at the 9:30 Club:

Quannum World 2004 Presents:

Blackalicious
DJ D-Sharp
DJ Shadow
The Gift of Gab
Joyo Velarde
Latyrx
Lateef the Truth Speaker
Lifesavas
Lyrics Born

$25.00

Wow.  Just, wow.

And bump to this thread I say!
-z


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## Ashwyn (Mar 26, 2004)

Only D12.


----------



## Mirth (Mar 27, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> If anyone's going to be in the DC area...
> 
> April 18th, at the 9:30 Club:
> 
> ...




Dammit! I'm gonna be there a weekend too early, for Easter. At least Jurassic 5 is coming to my town...


----------



## Djeta Thernadier (Mar 30, 2004)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> Wow.
> 
> Hip-Hop is a predominately black art form and we all know that parents (especially parents off impressionable white children) don't want negroes in their childrens heads or in thier homes unless theyre the help. Trust me on that one. To those parents metal may be noise but at least it's not darkie Jungle noise.




Responsible parents, both black & white (and any other color or ethnicity you can think of) do not want their kids listening to rap MAINLY because the rap that is on top 40 radio is laced with violence, sexism, drug use and the glorifying and rewarding of bad behavior.

It has nothing to do with the color of the skin of the person behind the mic. (last time I check , Emeinem was a white guy, as were the guys in Limp Bizkit, whom isn't really rap but IMO, falls into the category of top 40 music that annoys me) 

These same parents (of all colors) have no problems with black (or white) r&b soul singers, or rap that is peaceful and not filled with vulgarity.

I don't HATE all rap. I love some of it. I love r&b. It's what I grew up with. It's how I learned to sing.

But the top 40 type rap (Ludacris, Jay-Z, Eminem etc.) is just ridiculous. I don't care if it has a good beat, when some guy is talking about how terrible his street life is, and glorifying the degradation of women and the joys of shooting people and smoking crack, then yeah...I have a problem with it and if I had kids I would not want them listening to it. Particularly because these guys are all making more $$ then anyone I know will ever see and it's basically, them being rewarded for this awful behavior.

MTV (which by the way, is not forced on anyone...you CAN change the channel you know) only adds to this by pushing the message that's it's cool to be a gangsta. 

Well, IRL, it's not cool. 

You have no idea how many guy (& girls) I see come in here (my office) looking for work who talk & dress in a hip hop style and expect to be taken seriously. No one takes them seriously because they are acting like teens (no offense to the teens). I work with one woman (who, by the way is not black) in particular, who , at age 24 has her entire cubicle plastered with pictures of 50 Cent and uses hip hop slang often in conversations with our customers. 

I don't really recall any genre (aside from perhaps early rock and roll) having such an impact on the behavior of a generation. Many genres did impact, but I can't think of one that had such a frightening deep impact in a negative way.  

I'd encourage my kids, if they wanted to listen to hip hop,  to listen to less graphic hip hop (there's plenty of it out there) and every other style of music. Color has nothing to do with it. 

I think it's an insult to the generations of truly gifted black artists who have made amazing contributions to the musical world to immediately say "rap" is THE black music and anyone who has a serious problem with the content of rap is a racist. Would you say that a black parent who didn't want her daughter listening to Lil Kim was a racist? Cause I know a black woman who doesn't let her daughter listen to any rap. And I know she is not alone.

And I think it's an insult to me (and those who agree with me) that whenever we voice our concerns over the content of this "music" we are met with calls of racism and not understanding urban life. 

Sorry, I know this is way off topic, but this comment really irked me. :\


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## Aeolius (Mar 30, 2004)

I put rap music in the same category as most country music. It's message isn't written for me and I can't understand a darned thing their saying. Granted, that definition fits anything Creed puts out...stop mumbling and use words, man. But I digress. For me, the music with the most power is New Age and 80s New Wave. 

   Whenever I am stopped at a traffic signal and a car pulls up to me, it's driver blaring some unintelligible bass beat audible fifty yards away, I automatically assume that driver to have the IQ of a dead hermit crab. In ten years that entire generation will be deaf, I reassure myself, and the world will be quiet once more. Then, in retaliation, I roll down my windows and select my favorite song, Popcorn by Hot Butter (1972), on my iPod.

   Regardless of genre, music with violent lyrics belongs in the same place as video games with guns - in the trash.


----------



## Djeta Thernadier (Mar 31, 2004)

Aeolius said:
			
		

> Regardless of genre, music with violent lyrics belongs in the same place as video games with guns - in the trash.




I think the difference is the video games don't feature real people. Most people know that video game characters are not real. Violent music (and rap esp. seems to promote an entire lifestyle. And that's no good.) This features real people and there are alot of idiots out there who don't know that it's not "real".


----------



## Aeolius (Mar 31, 2004)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> Most people know that video game characters are not real.




   Granted, there was something cathartic about jabbing orcs in Warcraft until they screamed "STOP POKING MEEEEE!"


----------



## Zoatebix (Mar 31, 2004)

Aeolius said:
			
		

> In ten years that entire generation will be deaf, I reassure myself, and the world will be quiet once more.



Hey man, that's not cool!  One of my favorite English professors is hard of hearing because he had a band in high-school that opened for Cream!   



> in the same place as video games with guns - in the trash.



That's also not cool!  Mega Man 2 (1988) is probably one of the top 5 video games that don't have anything to do with Shigeru Miyamoto, and the main character has a gun for a hand!

Sometimes violence belongs in the trash, and sometimes Dr Wiley makes 8 robot masters that terrorize the population, and you need to replace your left hand with the mega-buster.

Violence has a place in socially conscious music.  

Would the Dead Kennedy's "Holiday in Cambodia" work if the lyrics didn't try to contrast the suburban world the listener is familiar with to a place where one works with a gun in one's back for one bowl of rice a day?

When the Lifesavas are critiquing the same violent rap _everyone_ here is against, would their irony work if their parody gansta wasn't "So thug, he gets shot everytime he goes on stage"?

Ug!  Okay, this post isn't that good... why do I try to write these right before class?    

Peace! (and I'm actually wearing tie-dye today...)


----------



## Djeta Thernadier (Apr 1, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Violence has a place in socially conscious music.
> 
> Would the Dead Kennedy's "Holiday in Cambodia" work if the lyrics didn't try to contrast the suburban world the listener is familiar with to a place where one works with a gun in one's back for one bowl of rice a day?




Yes. There is a lot of violence in every genre of music. I can name you violent country, classic rock, soft rock, showtunes and punk. The difference between this and rap, is that in rap it is not presented as intelligent social commentary (ala a lot of the DK's). It's presented as "Yeah I'm a thug, I'm cool" and an entire lifestyle has been created around it. How many times have you seen kids act, talk and dress like thug rappers? I see it all the time. And it saddens me, because these kids are so deluded that they think being like Jay-Z is the way to get ahead in life. And maybe if they are the one in a zillion picked to be a gangsta rapper with a contract it is the way to get ahead. But for the rest of them, they lose touch with reality and aspire to be a thug for the rest of their lives. 

I can honestly say I can't say the same about any other genre of music , where the lyrics are violent. Maybe 3 or 4 kids who were REALLY into punk who still look kinda goofy (IMO) but they can at least form complete sentences when they speak and carry on conversations about world events. Sorry, but I have never met a kid who was into gangsta rap (and I mean REALLY into it...not the people who just listen for background music) who struck me as being on his/her way to a great adult life. 

If it were just the lyrics, it would be fine. But it's not. It's the whole attitude behind it. You can't compare Holiday in Cambodia to a current top 40 50 Cent song. Both have violent lyrics, but the purpose was much different.


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## Zoatebix (Apr 1, 2004)

Hey!  No fair pointing out where I made unfair comparisons! 

I can be just as not fair!  Go me!  







> Violence has a place in socially conscious music.



I've never said gangsta rap was socially conscious.  I was arguing against blanket statements.  

I've been advocating rather uplifting hip-hop on this thread - I know AMG isn't great, but they describe Blackalicious as "Literate, Organic, Laid-Back/Mellow, Playful, Freewheeling, Reflective, Smooth" and hey, Blazing Arrow peaked at 49 on Billboard 200.  Not quite top 40, but there are a lot more people listening to 'Underground' rap than one would think - DJ Shadow and Jurassic 5 (and a lot more that I haven't heard or haven't researched) have recent almost-big releases.

More later, must sleep now!  Trust me, I actually have an argument I'm getting to.  I don't know whether it's fair or not.


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## Djeta Thernadier (Apr 1, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Hey!  No fair pointing out where I made unfair comparisons!
> 
> I can be just as not fair!  Go me!  I've never said gangsta rap was socially conscious.  I was arguing against blanket statements.
> 
> ...




I don't think we have an argument  I think J5 is great. I'm also a big fan of De La Soul....remember them? I like rap and hip hop, I just don't like the top 40 gangsta stuff.

As for whether or not it has a place at the gaming table, I agree, it depends on your game style.


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## Zoatebix (Apr 1, 2004)

Why does 'argument' have to be conceptualized in agnostic and warlike metaphor in Western culture ('attacking' and 'defending' 'positions' and 'points'...)?  That's it - I'm putting my foot down.  We need to invent a new form of discourse and make up a word for it. 

Anyways - I'm not sure whether we have an argument either, but was trying to build up steam to play Devil's Advocate...







> I don't really recall any genre (aside from perhaps early rock and roll) having such an impact on the behavior of a generation. Many genres did impact, but I can't think of one that had such a frightening deep impact in a negative way....
> 
> Sorry, but I have never met a kid who was into gangsta rap (and I mean REALLY into it...not the people who just listen for background music) who struck me as being on his/her way to a great adult life.



People do all kinds of stupid stuff that screw up their way to great adult life.  The Judas Priest suicide pact kids, the EverQuest addicts, LARP addicts, D&D satanists and suicides... their problems originate not in their music or hobbies, but in something more deeply rooted.

In England in the 18th Century, and into the 19th, the reading of novels was seen as a great danger to society's morals - "Purify your reading if you would guard your virtue!"  And hey, if you know little tidbits like 'etc.' is a euphemism for female genitalia, _some_ of that 18th C stuff approaches the raciness of the 'sex on tv' people campaign against today.

These days, the education establishment (as presented by the news media) seems ecstatic if a kid will pick up a novel of his own volition.  Writers don't strive to be poet laureate anymore, they strive to write the Great American Novel.  The 18th century cry against novels has shifted to our current popular forms.  I don't know where we're going, but some perspective keeps me... I don't know what it keeps me.  Skeptical, maybe?

I'm not sure whether the above is bull or insight.  Anywho, I've only heard a few tracks by De La Soul - time to listen to a whole album on one of my friend's computers.  Yay for Itunes and Universities!

I changed my mind - no hip-hop at the game table.

april fools


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## Djeta Thernadier (Apr 2, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Anyways - I'm not sure whether we have an argument either, but was trying to build up steam to play Devil's Advocate...People do all kinds of stupid stuff that screw up their way to great adult life.  The Judas Priest suicide pact kids, the EverQuest addicts, LARP addicts, D&D satanists and suicides... their problems originate not in their music or hobbies, but in something more deeply rooted.
> 
> In England in the 18th Century, and into the 19th, the reading of novels was seen as a great danger to society's morals - "Purify your reading if you would guard your virtue!"  And hey, if you know little tidbits like 'etc.' is a euphemism for female genitalia, _some_ of that 18th C stuff approaches the raciness of the 'sex on tv' people campaign against today.
> 
> ...




The difference is, those things never affected such a large portion of society. Maybe it's different for me, because I am close to the inner city and I maybe have a warped view, but I see an awful lot of kids acting and dressing "hip hop" and it's not a small portion of the population.


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## Mirth (Apr 29, 2004)

Jurassic 5 tonight at the Orange Peel in Asheville, NC! I can't wait! Although Cut Chemist isn't with them for this tour, my friend saw them in Virginia recently and said that Nu-Mark steps up to the plate and goes WAAAAY beyond the call of duty. I guess I'll only miss the customary DJ Battle...


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## Zoatebix (Aug 10, 2004)

*Bump!*

I really loved this thread, man!


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## Prince of Happiness (Aug 11, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> *Bump!*
> 
> I really loved this thread, man!




This is an awesome thread.

It drives me up the wall to see people make hyperbolic statements (rap/hip hop glorifies violence) about "rap" when it comes pretty clear that they haven't heard The Jurassic 5, The Roots, ?uestlove, etc. I'm more into the electro side of the old school, and new electro now.

I couldn't really see playing it for D&D, so much of it seems so rooted, if not lyrically, but then by the context to a modern setting.

Hot Hot Heat? I've seen them with Radio 4, and open for Wire. Both times I wanted to stab the lead singer.


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## the Jester (Aug 11, 2004)

I am a juggalo.  I love a lot of violent evil serial killer clown rap, but it's tongue in cheek.  Completely over the top.  Can't get enough of it.  The Lotus clique keeps me rockin' for days.

Yeah, it's usually on the playlist when we're gamin', too.


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## Snoweel (Aug 11, 2004)

As a very non-violent person, I have to point out that violent gangster-rap helps me relax in a way that no other music does. Probably that whole "see how bad it could be?" thing.

If anything, the idiots that see thug-life as a lifestyle to aspire to should be drowned at birth.

Becasue without hip-hop culture, they'd latch onto something else just as anti-social.


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## the Jester (Aug 12, 2004)

What about horror story music?  

ICP, Twiztid, Dark Lotus and Blaze Ya Dead Homie have a lot of horror-story songs.  For instance, here are some Twiztid lyrics (edited for Grandma):

*Hom-Sha-Bom*

Jamie Madrox:
_Your whole life's about to change in the next twenty seconds,
As you glance there's a lady runnin' at your car half-naked,
Bleedin' from her neck to her chest
And four guys chasin' her wit axes 
And they look f***in' possessed!
Without thinking you unlock the door to lend a hand,
Before she gets in the car they're approaching and coming fast.
Hit the gas,
She won't stop screaming;
She keeps saying over and over 
That she was mauled by a demon!
Blood, so much blood, it was unreal-
She'd go quiet for a second then go nuts and grab the steering wheel.
'Just calm the f*** down, you're scaring the s*** out of me!
I'm gonna take you to the hospital and leave you in the lobby!
You're gonna be fine-'
Sidewiped in my blind side
By a goose and a quarter with one headlight;
Just then I looked him right in the face 
And seen two glowing eyes peerin' out of a pillow case.
Now what the f*** is that?
'I think your friends are back!
Hey lady, wake up, you're bleeding all over the dash.'
As I pushed her on the shoulder
She turned around and bit me,
First the guys with the axes and now this bitch wants to kill me?_

_chorus_
Hom-Sha-Bom!
_Release the spirits and move along._
They'll be coming!
_They'll be coming for you and it won't be long._
Hom-Sha-Bom!
_Release the spirits and move along._
They'll be coming!
_They'll be coming for you and it won't be long._
This body doesn't belong to you!
_I know._
This body never belonged to you!
_I know._
This body doesn't belong to you!
_I know._
This body never belonged to you!
_Just go!_

Monoxide:
_Now they're on both side of us;
I can either run us both off of the road
Or crash into a school bus.
I'm lookin' out, and see one of my front wheels
Go bouncing off a tree and now it's headed for my windshield!
Pieces of glass are in my throat
And this bitch is in the front seat laughing like it's a joke
And now I look, I see them comin'
Walking, they got their axes
And they're talking in Aramaic or maybe it was Latin.
I'm kinda woozy and I'm starting to trip 
Cuz this bitch musta bit a f***ing hole in my wrist!
I feel it thriving like a heart attack 
But I can't think about that and all I see is the end of a bloody axe
Come smashin' through all of my windows on both sides,
And all these hands grabbin' us out the ride,
The choke hold's applied
And I'm thrown across the street
Face first and I'm so weak that I can barely even speak.
It's gotta be some kind of cult or witch practice, 
Some sort of a horrific movie or black magic.
All the blood in my eyes it couldn't hide, 
And by the screams I heard they must be ripping out her insides!_

chorus

Jamie Madrox:
_I can't see, too much blood inside of my eyes
But I can kind of make out silhouettes-
To my surprise
I'm in the clear, 
No one surrounds me,
But across the street it sounds just like the Exorcist movie.
Screaming,
Crying,
Parked cars flying around and smashing into the ground,
It's devastating.
The strange mother f***ers with axes got her surrounded,
I wonder if they're gonna kill her-
My heart's pounding,
Drowning in anticipation-
I mean, if they kill her they're killing me
And that's a f***ed up situation!
She's changing into a demon with every chant
That they're saying in that language that I still don't understand,
And a burst of light exploded-
And the ground started shaking and the side of a building a portal opened! 
She doesn't look anything like she did before,
She's got the body of a snake
With wings and devil horns!_

chorus

_I know, I know, I know..._
This body never belonged to you!
_Just Go!!!!!_


Is this gaming-appropriate music?  I say hell yeah!


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## Snoweel (Aug 12, 2004)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> I work with one woman (who, by the way is not black) in particular, who , at age 24 has her entire cubicle plastered with pictures of 50 Cent and uses hip hop slang often in conversations with our customers.




Cool!

Sounds like she has a sense of humour...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 13, 2004)

In a word...WOW!  Great thread, sorry I got here late!



> I call BS on this one. If MTV suddenly started only to play stuff like Slayer, the result wouldn't be platinum sales for Slayer but about zero viewers of MTV.




MTV is a business.  They want to make money.  Right now, the hottest musical genre out there besides country is rap, and country has its own channel.

When metal/hard rock was king, there was something called "The Headbanger's Ball" (pause to reminice), and rock, in general, was the only thing on their airwaves besides Madonna and Michael Jackson.  The only other genre specific show on MTV at the time was "Yo! MTV Raps", and it had only 1/4th the airtime the "Ball" had.

When the public's tastes change, so will what MTV airs.

Back on point, since I'm virtually the only lover of rap/hip-hop in my game groups, I'd only play rap at the gaming table if appropriate to the campaign or a PC.  Designed along the lines of the aformentioned "Wyrd is Bond" RPG characters, in a supers campaign, I ran a sonic-blasting PC, and an old Mage: The Ascencion PC I had was a young, black hip-hop mage who strongly resembled LL Cool J.

I also used some Public Enemy to set the scene when some supers PCs had to interject themselves in a riot a-la Spike Lee's "Do the Right Thing."

Absent that kind of connection, I stick to your typical run of classical music, SF/Fantasy movie scores & soundtracks (along with some curveballs like Kodo or environmental effects CDs) for game nights...when I play music at all.

This is for 2 reasons: while my musical tastes are as broad as the horizon, most people's aren't, so I would probably be forcing my tastes on someone who doesn't share it, and that only diminishes their enjoyment.

The second reason is that I game with too many sports junkies.  If the big game isn't on, they'll leave.


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