# After the Fall: Fantasy d20 Modern (Looking for 3-4 more)



## Nac Mac Feegle (Jun 29, 2004)

Hokay, at this point this game has one, maybe two (if adamantineangel comes back) players, looking for 3-4 more and some alternates.  Game info follows:

THE HISTORY:  In the past, the world was ruled by magic.  Gates connecting far-flung cities, airships cheaply moving people into surrounding villages.  No one went hungry because magic was used to create food for everyone.  And then it all ended.  No one knows what triggered the Cataclysm, but in a single moment, almost all life was scythed off the planet in a burst of raw magical energy.  Humanity was reduced in a day to barbarism, and the world had suddenly become more dangerous.  What hadn’t been killed by the magical burst had been somehow changed.  Now strange, twisted animals roamed forests of living trees, all with a thirst for blood.  Humanity survived in small, tight-knit clans of savages, fighting off the Changelings every day.  This state of affairs continued for an unknown amount of time, certainly at least five generations.  Slowly, however, humanity reconnected its lost parts, and out of the ashes a new empire was created, founded on the new sciences that had been discovered.  The empire re-civilized outlying tribes, and cut back and burned the changeforests for twice a hundred miles around the capital of Angarak.  Now the border is guarded by soldiers day in and day out, and the inner territories have become safe.  Old buildings and learnings are still being discovered, and new technologies created.  It is a time of growth for humanity.

THE SOCIETY:  The empire rules all human lands fairly tightly.  No one complains about the taxes and conscriptions, because it is well known that they are the only things keeping the armies strong enough to fight off regular changebeast attacks.  The empire controls all research, and keeps an especially tight control on the study of lost artifacts dug up at archeology sights.  In most inner lands, there is only a militia presence, which grows stronger the closer you get to the border.  The border to the changeforests is manned continually by large numbers of guards supplemented by stone walls and watchtowers.

THE RACES:  Only humans are available, all other races having disappeared in the Cataclysm.  You may play a minor changeling if you can come up with a reason as to why your character has survived (some people are still born as changelings due to the magical radiation still in the air, but most are killed at birth or else carry a social stigmata of being unnatural).  If you want to play a minor changeling, you would pick an animal and would have an appearance slightly modified by that animal and some stat/skill changes, if you have the d20 modern core rulebook use the rules for moreaus, if not just tell me what animal you'd be interested in and I'll tell you the changes.

THE CLASSES:  Any d20 modern class from the core section, no magical PrCs allowed.

EQUIPMENT:  D&D equipment, along with a new item:
	Rifle: A primitive gun similar to a musket but with the ball being loaded into the side.  2d6 damage, 30 ft. range increment.  Without an exotic weapons proficiency in it you can still fire it without a –4 penaly, but reloading is a full round action (otherwise it’s a move action).

Characters may have one magical item at 5x cost if they want, but it cannot be a continuous item (must be charged or single-use).  Be aware, such items are highly valuable artifacts that are regulated by the empire.  There needs to be a really good reason why you hid it from them (could be a family heirloom).

Characters should be at 5th level, with 3,000 gp (I'm using the D&D wealth system rather than the d20 modern one).  Characters should start in the capital city of Angarak.

New Professions:

Warrior:
Gain Martial Weapons Proficiency OR any Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat
Gain either Craft: Weaponsmithing or Perform: Weapon Drill (from Complete Warrior) as a class skill.

Tracker:
Gain Track as a bonus feat
Gain two of Survival, Knowledge: Nature, or Knowledge: Arcana

Chirugeon (Healer):
Gain Surgery as a bonus feat
Gain two of Treat Injury, Knowledge: Anatomy/Physiology or Craft: Alchemy

Scholar:
Gain Educated as a bonus feat
Count all knowledge skills as class skills

Noble:
Gain Persuasive as a bonus feat
Count two of Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge: Nobility & Royalty, Disguise, or Perform: Oratory as class skills.

NOTE:  If you already have a skill as a class skill, selecting it gives you a +1 bonus to that skill.

Looking for 4-5 players and 2-3 alternates


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## hafrogman (Jun 29, 2004)

I'm interested in playing, but not so much in the grim and gritty rules.  Still, if you decided against them, count me in.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jun 29, 2004)

I'd probably take a quick poll once I get 3-4 players on whether to use it, so don't worry.


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## doghead (Jun 29, 2004)

Hey Nac.

It sounds interesting. My first though was a changeling hunter, possibly with a touch of changeling blood himself - wolf off the top of my head. With two wolf/wolfhound hunting animals. He hunts them because his father did, as did his father before him. Its not personal. There is no particular animosity. Its just what he does. No magic items. gng all the way.

But I really shouldn't be getting into more games at this point. I still have one of my own to get off the ground, and another brewing in the background. Hmm. So for now I'll just lurk for a while.

good luck.


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## DrZombie (Jun 30, 2004)

A possible, tentative yes, but depending on time; Looks like it'll take a while to start up anyway.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 1, 2004)

Yeah, it'll probably start up slow.  Any character ideas?


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## solomoncane (Jul 1, 2004)

*Grim Tales*

You should check out Grim Tales from Badaxe Games.  It combines Modern class structure (6 ability-based classes) with 20 levels of blended 3.5/Modern niceties.  It includes fantasy, modern, and apocalyptic setting design.


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## IdentityCrisis (Jul 2, 2004)

Possibly interested.  Are the d20 Modern rules available online (free), and can you provide a link?

What sort of adventure format will you be running? In other words, will this be a very "adventuring-with-the-group" type of game, or will there be plenty of oppourtunity to do other stuff (like take over whole economies with a merchant character, for example)?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 2, 2004)

Rules for d20 modern can be found at http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd

The characters will be fairly isolated from the world for a lot of the campaign, so there will be an emphasis on party dynamics.


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## Mark Causey (Jul 2, 2004)

*Yaho!*

I'm highly interested, how would you like character concepts submitted?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 3, 2004)

Anyone who wants to play just post your characters up here.  If you want to keep a magic item or some covert changeling blood secret from the rest of the group, then email me at priestofchaos1@yahoo.com

Changelings are as follows (coverts look just like people, but have extra powers, moderates need to make a disguise check to pass as human):

Bear:
covert:
-2 on spot check
double range increment penalties
+2 str
-2 dex

moderate:
as above but also +2 con -2 int


Feline:
covert:
-2 int
+2 cha

moderate:
as above but also +2 dex -2 con


Rat
covert:
+2 dex
-2 str

moderate:
as above but also +2 int -2 cha

If you want to play something else (say canine maybe) just tell me and I'll work up stats.


If you're playing a moderate changeling, you need to have a really good reason why you haven't been stoned to death by angry peasants.


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## Mark Causey (Jul 3, 2004)

*d20 Modern SRD*

Here's another version of the d20 Modern SRD.


www.systemreferencedocuments.org/modern/roarerbull/Home.php


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## hafrogman (Jul 4, 2004)

What stat generation method should be used?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 4, 2004)

People should work on 28 point buy.


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## hafrogman (Jul 5, 2004)

A few questions about equipment.

The rifle:

I could use the cost, the cost of ammunition and the crit range and multiplier.

Other:

Do adamantine and mithral fall under magical equipment, or are the metals mundane in nature and thus still available?


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## Mark Causey (Jul 5, 2004)

How do we ascertain weapon/armor proficiencies? Do we purchase them as feats? Do changelings count as moreau for the sake of skill points/feats? I'm almost done and am trying to equip, but I don't want to have too much stuff I can't use.

AtR


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 6, 2004)

Okay, let's see here:

Admantium and Mithril are available, but at x1.5 cost.  No "planar" metals (like solarian truesteel) are allowed.

The rifle has a x3 crit, costs 200 gp, and a single shot plus gunpowder costs 1 gp.

Weapon/Armor proficiencies are purchased as feats, and changeling is a template applied to humans, so use human feats/skill points.


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## DrZombie (Jul 6, 2004)

If I get this right : Modern classes, can we use advanced classes as well? (those that apply in a low-tech setting.)
If there's a primitive gun, are we talking swashbuckling thingies then? Rapier-wielding, womanising drunk frenchmen? Count me in then  .

Problem with modern advanced classes is that there aren't any "swordsman" advanced classes available. Is there any other source material (such as swashbuckling adventures) we can have a làook at or do you want to go on  case-by case thinghie?

Either way, count me in as a duellist kind of fellow, high on dex and charisma.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 6, 2004)

Advanced classes that apply to a low tech setting are in (no robots for you).

PrCs from D&D will be considered on a case by case basis, so you could go fast hero/soldier/duelist.


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## Mark Causey (Jul 6, 2004)

DrZombie said:
			
		

> Either way, count me in as a duellist kind of fellow, high on dex and charisma.



Would you be willing to take on a protege? I was looking to play a young, charismatic girl, on the lamb, having barely escaped prosecution last time ... she's not strong and wants to use a rapier, but doesn't know how yet.

AtR


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## DrZombie (Jul 6, 2004)

adamantineangel said:
			
		

> Would you be willing to take on a protege? I was looking to play a young, charismatic girl, on the lamb, having barely escaped prosecution last time ... she's not strong and wants to use a rapier, but doesn't know how yet.
> 
> AtR



Allright, fine by me, as long as Eric's Grandma won't be upset by what she reads

Nac Mac, do you have "Swashbuckling Adventures" by AEG? There's some nice prestige classes in there, and some nifty feats you might wanna allow.


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## hafrogman (Jul 6, 2004)

*I think this is everything. . .*

*Gavin Shand*

Human Male
Fast 2/Dedicated 3
Warrior

Str: 11 (0) [3 points]
Dex: 15 (+2) [6 points +1 @ 4th level]
Con: 11 (0) [3 points]
Int: 14 (+2) [6 points]
Wis: 14 (+2) [6 points]
Cha: 12 (+1) [4 points]

Size: M (6'0", 173 lb)
Speed: 35
HD: 2d8 + 3d6
HP: 23
Initiative: +2
BAB: +3

Defense: 22 (+3 dex +4 armor +5 class)

*Attacks:*

Rifle (+6 attack, 2d6 dmg, 20/x3 crit, 45' range, ?)
MW Composite Shortbow (+6 attack, 1d6 dmg, 20/x3 crit, 105' range, piercing)
MW Shortsword (+4 attack, 1d6 dmg, 19-20/x2 crit, piercing)
Dagger (+3 attack [+5 thrown], 1d4 dmg, 19-20/x2 crit, [20' range], piercing or slashing)

Reputation: +1
Action Points: 2

Fort: +2
Refl: +5
Will: +4

*Feats:*

Martial Weapons Proficiency (Profession)
Exotic Firearms Proficiency: Rifle (1st)
Far Shot (human)
Point Blank Shot (fast 2)
Precise Shot (3rd)
Weapon Focus: Rifle (dedicated 2)

*Talents:*

Increased Speed (Fast 1)
Skill Emphasis: Tumble (Dedicated 1)
Aware (Dedicated 3)

*Skills:*

Balance +7/5
Climb (x) +2/2
Craft(Weaponsmithing) +10/8
Escape Artist +4/2
Hide +7/5
Jump (x) +2/2
Listen +8/6 (+10 vs surprise)
Move Silently +7/5
Spot +8/6 (+10 vs surprise)
Sense Motive +5/3
Survival +5/3
Tumble +10/5


*Equipment:*

Rifle
Bullets (50)
MW Composite Shortbow
Arrows (20)
MW Shortsword
Dagger

Mithral Chain Shirt

Backpack
Beltpouch
Waterskin

Grappling Hook
Silk Rope (50')
Flint & Steel
MW Artisan's Tools
Bedroll
Trail Rations (4 days)

377 gp 9 sp


Gavin is a handsome enough young man, but a little rough around the edges from years of life closer to the border as both a farmboy and soldier.  He has shoulder length brown hair and green eyes.  His skin is somewhat darkened and weather beaten, but still firm.  He carries himself with a large dose of self assurance.


Gavin was born to a fairly normal family in a town close to the outskirts of the empire.  He grew up hearing tales of the changeforests and the horrors that lurked within from guards on leave from their service.  He spent his spare time hanging around the taverns listening with facination to the stories being spun, and fell in love with the adventures he imagined.

When he came of age he left his village and went to join the border guards, leaving the family's farmstead in the hands of his younger brother.  However, all was not quite as those stories had made it seem.  There was a fair chunk of boredom and waiting between what excitement there was.  Especially when he drew wall duty or even worse was temporarily transfered to one of the internal militia forces.  Still, he recived training and was living the life he had always dreamed of.

Eventually his term of service ran out and he left the borders to travel inwards, hoping to see a little of the empire before deciding what to do with the rest of his life.  His travels eventually brought him to Angarak, where perhaps he will find something to occupy his days.


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## Mark Causey (Jul 6, 2004)

DrZombie said:
			
		

> Allright, fine by me, as long as Eric's Grandma won't be upset by what she reads



No, no, goodness, you've about made *me* blush. She'll be fifteen and have far from that on her mind.

AtR


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 6, 2004)

I don't have that book DrZombie, but I'd approve certain things on a case by case basis.

Frogman: The range increment on a rifle is 30 ft (these are still relatively inaccurate), and Masterwork rifles are unavailable, because the technology is still relatively new (rifles only left the prototype stage 10 or 15 years ago).  Given the feat distribution of your character you might want to invest in a bow.  Most people are still a little distrustful of the relatively new rifles, and like to have a more reliable weapon on hand (rifles have been known occasionally to jam or explode).


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## doghead (Jul 6, 2004)

I couldn't sleep so thought that I would have a fiddle with this. The translation of weapon profs gave me a headache. It all came out as a bit of a muddle. Not sure what I was trying to do now.  

Edit: and the skills points are all wrong.

Anyways, got to get some sleep as the sun has come up.

Dedicated Hero

Feat: Simple Weapons (as per dnd?)

Occupation: Adventurer.
Skills: Climb, Move Silently.
Feat: xxx
Wealth Bonus +1

Str - 12 [4 points]
Dex - 14 [6 points]
Con - 10 [2 points]
Int - 12 [4 points]
Wis - 16 [10 points]
Cha - 10 [2 points]

Skills Points
1st: (5+2)x4=28
2nd-5th: (5+2)x4=28 -- total 56.
Ranks:
Climb 6, Knowledge (Nature) 6, Listen 6, Move Silently 8, Profession 8, Speak Language 2, Spot 6, Survival 8, Treat Injury 6.

BAB: +3
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +6.
Defense: +3
Reputation: +2
Action Points: 7x5 = 35?

Feats
F - Simple Weapon Prof [class]
F - xxx [occupation]
T - Skill Emphasis (Survival) [1st]
F - Alertness [2nd]
T - Faith (+3 bonus, cost1 AP) [3rd]
F - xxx [4th]
T - xxx [5th]


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## hafrogman (Jul 6, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Frogman: The range increment on a rifle is 30 ft (these are still relatively inaccurate), and Masterwork rifles are unavailable, because the technology is still relatively new (rifles only left the prototype stage 10 or 15 years ago).  Given the feat distribution of your character you might want to invest in a bow.  Most people are still a little distrustful of the relatively new rifles, and like to have a more reliable weapon on hand (rifles have been known occasionally to jam or explode).




The 45ft range increment was from having the farshot feat (1.5 times range increment).  What about the possibility of having crafted his own MW rifle?  That is the main reason he has so many ranks in craft(weaponsmith).

I did give him a melee backup weapon, but I suppose I could pick up a crossbow as well in case of emergencies.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 6, 2004)

Sorry, didn't notice farshot.

As for crafting your own weapon, my point is that the technology is still too new for someone to really know the fine points of craftsmanship that go into making a masterwork item.


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## hafrogman (Jul 7, 2004)

character is edited.


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## Gramcrackered (Jul 7, 2004)

Hmmm...I wouldn't mind playing as a Smart Hero of some sort in this game, but I'm a bit lost for a way that said character wouldn't be utterly useless in combat.  While I don't demand I do a lot during battles, it'd be nice if my skills didn't amount to cowering beneath a bush while everyone else does their own things.
Let's see...you've already got someone with Treat Injury; magic is out; technology is too low for that to really be viable...

I suppose I could just nix the Smart angle.  Any thoughts?  More importantly, are you even still interested in getting more players?


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## hafrogman (Jul 7, 2004)

*not the DM disclaimer*

The traditional thiefy role of lock picking and trap disarming would probably fall under the auspices of Smart Hero.  As for combat your best bet would be the exploit weakness talent and a big chunk of metal to wave at your opponents.

*not the DM disclaimer*


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 7, 2004)

Actually, smart hero would work quite well.  Take lockpicking style skills, the trick ability, and then go to field scientist to give yourself a reasonable AC.  Also, having a scholar in the party can be really helpful.  A note: The skill Knowledge: Arcana can be used to identify what a magical artifact does.  Also, use magical device is now a smart hero and field scientist class skill, so you could be the resident scholar with a shady background.  Note: the Scholar profession gives you +1 to all knowledge skills if you're a smart hero.

If you do play that type of character, scholars are usually well thought of, and often have places in court in Angarak.


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## Mark Causey (Jul 8, 2004)

I think I'm mostly done ...

*Garnet Qu'ette

*Human Female (Changeling)
Smart 3/Charismatic 2
Criminal

Str: 10 (0) [2 points]
Dex: 12 (+1) [4 points]
Con: 10 (0) [4 points, -2 Changeling]
Int: 16 (+3) [8 points, +1 at 4th level]
Wis: 14 (+2) [4 points, +2 Changeling]
Cha: 14 (+2) [6 points]

Size: Medium (5'0", 115 lb)
Speed: 30
HD: 3d6 + 2d6
HP: 13
Initiative: +1
BAB: +2

Defense: 14 (+1 dex, +1 armor, +2 class)

*Attacks:*

Rapier, masterwork (+0 attack, 1d6, 18–20/x2 crit, piercing)
Dagger (+3 attack [+3 thrown], 1d4+1d4 dmg, 19-20/x2 crit, [10' range], piercing or slashing)

Reputation: +6
Action Points: ??

Fort: +3
Ref: +3
Wil: +4

*Feats:*

Brawl (Profession)
Simple Weapons Proficiency (Class)
Stealthy (1st)
Heroic Surge (twice per day) (human)
Educated (Knowledge: History, Knowledge: Tactics) (Smart 2)
Streetfighting (3rd)
Reputation (Charismatic 2)

*Talents:*

Savant (Knowledge: History) (Smart 1)
Plan (Smart 3)
Coordinate (Charismatic 1)

*Skills:*

(44+11+11+10+10) = 86 points

Balance +3/2 (4 points)
Bluff +11/8 (11 points)
Climb +8/4 (8 points + 4 Changeling)
Disable Device +9/6 (6 points)
Disguise +6/3 (3 points)
Gather Information +7/4 (4 points)
Hide +11/8 (8 points - Criminal skill, Stealthy)
Jump +4/4 (8 points)
Knowledge: History +14/6 (6 points - Savant, Educated)
Knowledge: Tactics +11/6 (6 points - Educated)
Listen +3/1 (2 points)
Move Silently +11/8 (8 points - Criminal skill, Stealthy)
Search +9/6 (6 points)
Survival +3/1 (2 points)
Tumble +3/2 (4 points)


*Equipment:*

_Weapons (326 gp):_
Rapier, masterwork (taken from father's collection, hilt guard embellished)
Dagger x 3

_Armor (1515 gp):_ 
Buckler, Mithral (taken from father's collection, bears family symbol)

_Stuff (1151.82 gp):_ 
backpack
bandolier
caltrops
canvas, 2 sq. yd.
case, map
chalk
crowbar
explorer's outfit
flint and steel
grappling hook
hammer
mirror, small steel
parchment x2
pitons x2
Rations, trail (2 tendays)
rope, silk (50 ft.)
spyglass
soap
thief's tools, masterwork
torches x2
waterskin

7 gp, 1 sp, 8 cp

Garnet's early life in Angarak left her wanting little. Her aging father, Agaron, a dedicated warrior for the empire, had earned quite a pension loyally defending said empire with his life and wits. Agaron treated his wife and daughter with all the love he could muster, barely hiding his disappointment of not having a son. Garnet learned quite a bit about how to get boys and men to like her and do what she wanted at this young age, and her future looked bright. Agaron still acted as an advisor the empire on military matters, and Garnet was able to watch these almost completely without notice. Garnet learned her father's method of eyeing men up, using intimidation, coercion, and bribery when needed. She would also listen in on planning sessions when she could.

Garnet told her father from an early age that she wanted to move about at high places and wanted to fly, like the birds. Agaron reminded her that man no longer flew in the air, and tried to ground her imagination. Reluctant to give up, she decided instead to maybe climb the higher trees and places when she could. Her father encouraged her as best he could, taking her to towers and high buildings when he went to them on business.

Her mother told her many stories and old epics, through a deep matriarchic tradition, about when man had flying machines and gates to far-off lands. She set her mind to re-discover these things, and bring them back to her people, and decided to train her body as well. Garnet was set to grow up in a rich house, with all she needed to accomplish her goals. However, events soon came to pass that would change her life forever. 

Garnet's mother passed away while giving birth to her brother, Ugaresh, when Garnet was twelve years old. Agaron became withdrawn and remote around her, and focused all of his attention on the health and upbringing of Ugaresh. Anger built in Garnet, just as it silently did in Agaron, but for different reasons. Agaron hated the loss of his wife; Garnet hated the loss of her father. Garnet had made peace with her mother's death, and understood it as part of the cycle of life. However, Agaron seemed to think that raising two children alone was impossible, and barely ever recognized the need to assist his daughter with anything. She kept up the family's needs as best she could, but soon thereafter it was too much.

Striking out, hoping to garner her father's attention and hopefully get him to snap out of his fox-hole vision, Garnet started hanging out with gangs of youth and in dangerous and sometimes criminal locales. Running away from the law, and sometimes from the very people she hung out with, she learned more ways and places to hide and not be seen, and to move silently from those locations. Most people, she found out, were afraid of moving along the highest of buildings and the crests of towers, and soon she came to be known as Garnet of the Tower Tops. Garnet built a small reputation on her ability to get others to do jobs for her, and successfully; and her luck with these jobs, especially if she went personally. She soon came to 'lead' a gang of thieves and pickpockets which was just small enough to bring in some revenue, but not large enough to be cared about by the larger groups ... she hoped. Garnet gained a new epithet at this time, when her eye color dramatically changed: Golden-eyed Garnet.

Garnet knew that, if she were to be ultimately successful with her gang, and their petty criminal acts (still just to mess with her father), she would need to keep to her advantages: her ease with heights and getting there, her good night vision, and leading the gang and making sure the right person did the right job. So it was unfortunate that when she was quoted the largest sum that she'd ever been offered that she quickly abandoned these principles for greed, which had been slowly developing, in and of itself. She took the job herself.

"It must be done tonight," the cloaked figure said, calmly.

"My best man is on another job," she replied, chewing on her thumb,
thinking about the bag of coins in front of her on the table.

"Well, then, I must be ..." the cloaked figure stated, haltingly, while
standing up. Garnet's hand on his arm brought him back down, silently.

"Give me the details ..." Garnet stated, doubts suddendly waved away, almost as if by her hand movement.

Golden-eyed Garnet is on the run for more reasons than one. She was caught in the trap of raiding a merchant's basement, set up by a rival group. She was caught only after she worked her way out of the pitch black building's exhaust tunnels without notice, only to run into a militia man in the back alley. Her eye color change and seemlingly unexplainable abilities led everyone to the one thing that no one had really noticed: she was a changeling. Her father's money and reputation has just saved her from a bad sentence, but she is a marked and well-known girl; her infamy will keep many from trusting her. However, some do recognize her father's talents within her, and might find her leadership skills to be useful ...


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## hafrogman (Jul 8, 2004)

a 15 stat still only gives a +2 bonus

Feat suggestions:

Assuming that you don't want to know how to use your rapier so martial weapon proficiency is out.

Shield proficiency (if you buy a MW buckler this isn't neccesary)
Dodge (low dex and light armor in the front lines)
Perhaps some of the +2 to 2 skills feats (acrobatic, etc)
Toughness couldn't hurt


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## Gramcrackered (Jul 8, 2004)

Hmmm...maybe some sort of rogue scholar then, who attempts to recover lost artifacts for his own purposes.  Give me a day or two to think about it though; bit busy right now.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 8, 2004)

Since we seem to have a quorum of players here, I'm going to have a poll.

The question is:  Will we be using the grim'n'gritty rules (old edition).  This isn't the latest version (which I don't like so much), but the old version where you still get hp, just not as much.

For those who don't know g'n'g: You start with hp equal to your con.  d12 and d10 hit dice get one hitpoint per level, d8 and d6 have 3/4 progression, and d4 has 1/2 progression.  The larger a creature is, the more hp it has.  Armor gives you DR, not AC (you just get your AC from your class bonuses).  If you get hit, you make a fort save or be temporarily dazed or stunned from the pain (depending on how much you fail the save by).  Also, all attacks use dex instead of strength.  I am allowing a home-brew feat I made called Brute Strength, which is like weapon finesse in reverse (Prerequisite: Weapon Focus: Any two handed weapon).

Grim'n'Gritty in my opinion would work nicely because of the lack of magic, and furthermore, low hp would lend a much more important and mysterious air to a lost magical artifact such as a potion of firebreath.  In general, g'n'g provides a more realistic, harsh world.

I personally would like to do g'n'g, but I want your opinions on it.


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## doghead (Jul 8, 2004)

Nac

I'd go for gng. Absolutely. But I'm feeling a bit beat up at the moment (RL stuff), and I can't seem to get a concept straight in my head, nor my head around the mechanics. If you don't mind, I'm going to step out.

doghead


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## Mark Causey (Jul 8, 2004)

Grim and gritty sounds fine to me.

--doghead, best of luck with RL. I know when it happens, it's usually grim and gritty too.


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## Mark Causey (Jul 11, 2004)

I'm done with my character, as far as I know ... any other comments or takers?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 11, 2004)

Sorry to see you go doghead, good luck with getting your life straight.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 13, 2004)

Okay, I'm making an effort to hurry things along here.  I'd like to see everyone's character up by Wednesday if possible, right now we're waiting on Dr. Zombie and Gramcrackered.

So far it seems like people like g'n'g, so unless there's a massive outpouring against it in the next couple days, assume that that's what we're using.

This has a pretty complete set of g'n'g rules, if you go to the "grim'n'gritty combat" bookmark.  Two changes to note:
1: rather than a fixed damage leading to wound trauma, when hit you make a fort save DC 5+damage dealt.  Failure by 1-5 indicates dazed for one round.  Failure by 5-10 indicates stunned for a round, failure by 11+ indicates stunned for 1d4 rounds.

2:  More than six points of damage, or more than four from a slashing weapon, causes bleeding.  After 1d6+con mod rounds you are fatigued, after the same amount of time, you're exhausted, then after another repetition unconscious, then finally after another repetition dead.  A DC 15 Treat Injury check can staunch bleeding.

All weapons are assumed to lack penetration with the following exceptions:

1:  Arrows have penetration 3
2:  Polearms (spears, halberds, etc.) have penetration 2
3:  Rifles have penetration 8


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## hafrogman (Jul 13, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> So far it seems like people like g'n'g, so unless there's a massive outpouring against it in the next couple days, assume that that's what we're using.




I guess I shall be withdrawing then, as noted earlier, since I don't really have an interest inplaying GnG.  I'll be following the game however, so good luck.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 13, 2004)

Well, I'd say stick around at least until the others have cast their votes, because if they agree with you we won't use it.  I'm just trying to speed things along.


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## Mark Causey (Jul 13, 2004)

Let me revise my vote:

Grim 'n' gritty, or any other reasonable rules system provided before the game and kept consistent when adjudicating is fine by me.

AtR


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## Orvallon (Jul 13, 2004)

This game still looking for bodies?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 13, 2004)

yes


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## Mark Causey (Jul 21, 2004)

Do we have enough players to begin? If so, when do we start?

AtR


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## Aelindgar (Aug 31, 2004)

Hmmm sounds like the comic project my club and I are doing count me in, But I'm a noob so u guys would have to guide me along in teh character creation. If thats ok.  
Was thinking since these magical items would be valuable, maybe I make a PC that has decipher skill to find/locate them?


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## Aelindgar (Sep 1, 2004)

Is the thing still on?? :\


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## hafrogman (Sep 1, 2004)

not really, no.

Welcome to the boards though.


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## Aelindgar (Sep 1, 2004)

oh bummer, was looking forward to it though. >.<;


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## hafrogman (Sep 1, 2004)

Well Nac's away right now.  Once he returns, you could see if he was interested in getting it going again.


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## Mark Causey (Nov 9, 2004)

Nac, are you back?

AtR


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 10, 2004)

Actually, I've just finished up with some RL major work stretches and have some free time again.  I guess at this point there are two major questions:

1:  Who is still interested in this game?

2:  What is the current vote:  Grim'n'Gritty vs. normal HP system?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 10, 2004)

Oops, double post.


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## Mark Causey (Nov 10, 2004)

Still up for it, whatever rules you'd like.

AtR


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 11, 2004)

Hmm, that's one.  Okay, I guess this thread is open for recruiting (take two).

Thanks to those who retained interest despite my complete lack of organizational skills.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 11, 2004)

Nac, you crazy bastard, this thing still isn't up and running yet?

I may well jump in, since it looks as I have a stretch of free time in front of me.  My vote's for the _new_ grim-n-gritty... but failing that I'll take the old. 

I'm thinking an (ex?)bandit type, of an age to be determined (I'm weighing the relative pros and cons of old salt to cocky youngster).  He did some highway robbery and never got caught, but perhaps a close call causes him to persue other lines of work... or perhaps he's unrepentant.  Class-wise, I'll probably go Fast 2/Tough 2/Strong 1.  Who knows?  I may never take an advanced class.  At least one more level of Strong, then maybe dedicated and/or just bump up the other classes after that.

If I could toss in a request (and consider it withdrawn if it complicates things), could we do some sort of partial advancement on BAB if nothing else? I.e, each level adds a fraction, rather than looking at the chart.  A second level class with 3/4 BAB (+.75 per level) doesn't get +1; it gets +1.5, and you round off the fraction, etc., etc.  It makes multiclassing more mechanically sound, a plus, methinks, in D20 modern.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 11, 2004)

Good to see you Tom, that makes two.

I personally have no gripe against the new GnG, and leave that decision in the hands of the players.  As it is, we have one vote for new GnG, one indifferent.

And yes, I was planning on fractional BAB and saves.

I have put up an RG thread.  If you'd repost your character there, Adamantineangel, that'd be wonderful.


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## Mark Causey (Nov 11, 2004)

Consider it done ...


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 13, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> And yes, I was planning on fractional BAB and saves.




Only problem with fractional saves, if I recall correctly, is that saves (and defense bonuses) in d20M don't follow easily mathematically followed progressions like in D&D (feel free to correct me or, using those m4d 1337 m4th sk1||z, figure them out).  Fractional BAB (and HP, if doing the original grim and gritty) should work, since both of those follow mathematically simple progressions.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 13, 2004)

[Math mode]
While it is true that the saves do not follow a purely mathematical progression, they do follow a pattern:  1/222/33/444/5 for good saves or 00/111/222/33 for bad saves.  That means that bad saves work at the progression of (level/3), same as D&D.  It's a little more complicated for good saves, but suffice it to say that if you have +2 for three levels that means I'll give you a +1/3 for each, so the progression would look like +1/+2/+2 1/3/+2 2/3/+3/+3 1/2/+4, you get the picture.  If this is confusing, just tell me your classes and I'll figure out.

Defense bonus wise, the same rules hold, but I'm making a quick change:  To cut down on the massive plague of "everyone takes a level of fast hero for the +3 def," the first three levels of fast hero def bonus will be +2/+3/+4 instead of +3/+4/+4.
[/Math mode]


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 13, 2004)

Feh.  Just as I'm leaping on the fast hero gravy train, you have to institute my own fair-minded reforms. 

Character should be up soon.  I just have to, y'know, write the stuff down.

Minor question: Are the rifles rifles (as in, they have a rifled barrel) or breechloading (rather than the historical muzzleloading) muskets?  Judging by the range and recent development, I'd say muskets.  So it's not a bullet, it's a musketball, etc.  

Judging by the quickness of loading, I'm guessing this isn't a matter of pour powder, insert ball, but instead paper-wrapped packets of powder with a ball at the end.  Flint strikes steel, spark leaps to the paper, burns through it, catches powder.  Yes?  Am I thinking too hard about this?  Is it hard to idly spectulate too much?

Other minor question: Sawed-off rifles (character point; he used it to block a greatsword...) medium size, range 10 ft. all right?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 13, 2004)

Well, to be frank, I hadn't really considered historical accuracy too much.  The barrels are probably not rifled, so it is probably a breech-loading musket.  As for the loading times, I just went with what seemed relatively accurate, but I am amending the rules slightly to say that the quick-reload feat does not stack with EWP: Rifle to make it a free action.  You need to take at least a move action to reload.

I will accept the sawed off rifle, but I am going to use the Ultramodern Firearms unreliability rules for it (insert evil laughter).


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 15, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Well, to be frank, I hadn't really considered historical accuracy too much.




Like I said, I'm probably thinking about it too hard.



> I will accept the sawed off rifle, but I am going to use the Ultramodern Firearms unreliability rules for it (insert evil laughter).




I'd reccomend using them for all muskets, seems like (why would a shorter barrel make it less reliable?).  Remember, though, they only _jam,_ they don't explode.  So nyah.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 25, 2004)

Mad Jack Finn, bandit legend, peasant hero, and boderline psychotic, is in the Rogue's Gallery.  The flavor text needs to make the brain-to-page transition.

I didn't incrementalize anything, figuring I'll do it in one fell swoop.  BAB is easy; defense bonus, save bonus, reputaiton bonus, etc. I leave to you.

I provided both normal and GnG stats; my vote is still for GnG, but it seems to be tied.   Let's get one more player and see what they think.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 25, 2004)

I am unsure as to whether this is still alive...


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 25, 2004)

Phsaw.  People fall over themselves to play PbP 'round here; just edit the title to say something like "Join, dammit!" and put the summary of the current situation in the first paragraph.


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## Mark Causey (Nov 26, 2004)

I'm still subscribed and waiting ^_^

AtR


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 29, 2004)

Is halffrogman still about?  Regular d20 is fine with me if he still wants in. 

Failing that, Nac, I will admit to being intrigued enough to ask if you could run his with two?  Between me and angel's characters, we seem to have a lot of ground covered, ability-wise and (although I have yet to post any background) the inter-character dynamic could be interesting....


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## Christopher Lambert (Nov 29, 2004)

If you're interested in a new player, can I join?

I think I could be a swashbuckler.

I would prefer using D20 Modern rules - well, I have the book, after all.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2004)

Of course I'm interested, Christopher.

We'll be using d20 modern rules, and it seems that popular opinion is going towards using the Grim'n'Gritty rules (if you don't know these, tell me and I'll post a link).

At this point I think I'll probably try running this with only three people, so if you make a character (rules covered in first post), we should be able to start.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 29, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> ...and it seems that popular opinion is going towards using the Grim'n'Gritty rules (if you don't know these, tell me and I'll post a link).




...if by "popular opinion" you mean "one annoying guy and one ambivalent person" .

Howdy, Mr. Lambert.  Welcome aboard.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2004)

Is popular opinion ever more than one annoying guy and a bunch of people who don't care?


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## Christopher Lambert (Nov 29, 2004)

I'm not familiar with GnG.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2004)

The grim'n'gritty rules can be found here: http://www.swordsedge.net/Grim-n-GrittyRevised.doc

They're basically a set of alternative hitpoint rules designed to make combat more dangerous and "grim'n'gritty".


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 30, 2004)

Basic summary:

Everyone gains hit points equal to their constitution modifier plus a certain amount per level equal to one of the BAB bonus progressions (d4 hit die gains the wizard progression of 1/2 level, d6 and d8 are the cleric progression of 3/4 level, d10 is the fighter progression of 1 per level).  Large and small creatures get a multiplier to their HP, meaning big creatures are downright unpleasant.

AC is replaced by an opposed d20 roll of the attacker's normal attack bonus (with the caveat that ALL attacks use the dexterity, as opposed to the strength modifier, on attack rolls) vs. the defenders Defense Bonus+dexterity.  Armor provides DR equal to it's normal AC bonus.

You take penalties to all rolls the more damage you take (-2 at 3/4 hp, -4 at 1/2 hp, -6 at 1/4 hp) and each time you take damage you roll or be aversely affected by the pain ("wound trauma).

That's the basics of it.  There's some more info on post #40 of this thread, or in the PDF.  That's everything you really need to know except the wide variety of called shots and the specifics of wound trauma and bleeding to death.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2004)

Uh, Thomas, you do realize you're summarizing the old version and I linked to the new one...


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 30, 2004)

... _touché._


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 3, 2004)

*Some thoughts*

If we are using that, there are a few tweaks I'd reccomend.

First, and most obviously, defense bonuses scale down to BAB bonus style progression (fast gets 1/1, smart and charismatic get 1/2, everything else gets 3/4).  If we keep the normal defense bonuses, defense will far outstrip offense and combat gets significantly less dangerous.

Secondly, some small measure of level-based soak _might_ be appropriate.  If you take D&D and port in straight into the new grim-n-gritty, the overall toughness of each class is maintained: fighters have heavy armor and high BAB, so they're tough; clerics have heavy armor and medium BAB, so they're pretty tough, too; wizards have low BAB and no armor, so they go squish.  In d20 modern, hit die is a lot more of a balancing factor, since some classes are explicitly "tough."  Since heavy armor is rarer, people still won't be behemoths, and there's a reason to take higher HD classes. 

For progressions, I'd reccomend something around 4/20 for d10 classes (rising to 8/20 with robust or for d12 classes), 3/20 for d8, and 2/20 for d6.  So Jack would have almost reached the point where he's earned a point of soak (1/10 from Cha 1, 2/5 from Tough 2, and ~1/4 from Fast 1 and strong 1) and taking robust would put him over the edge.  Or, if you doubled all the values above (d10 is 4/10, d8 is 3/10, d6 is 2/10) to make everything a bit tougher, Jack would have (.8+.6+.2=1.6) 1 point of soak already, and 2 if he takes robust.

Anyway, whatever we do, we should probably get things movin'.

Trailing thought- the new GnG also dumps penetration, which means the simplist route is to simply add a special quality to rifles which says "ignores up to X points of soak from natural armor or armor.  Depending on the value of X, the value of rifles skyrockets.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 3, 2004)

I think those tweaks are good, and yes, a rifle ignores the first 4 points of armor soak.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 4, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> I think those tweaks are good....




Eh... which ones?  What's the soak progression for the various hit die?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 4, 2004)

The soak and defense bonus mods.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 4, 2004)

I meant, I used two different soak progressions as examples, one twice as much as the other; which one do you want to use, or do you have yet a third?


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## Christopher Lambert (Dec 6, 2004)

I should have my character ready in just a day or two.

I'll do the usual Modern-style character and someone can walk me through the soaking rules.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 7, 2004)

Christopher Lambert said:
			
		

> I'll do the usual Modern-style character and someone can walk me through the soaking rules.




Yes.  Will do.

I'm going to go now and edit my own character.  Nac, Mithral Chain Shirts still count as Light armor in terms of causing fatigue when you sleep in them, right?  I'm weighing Toughness vs. Endurance.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 7, 2004)

Okay, clarification, I like the LOWER amount of soak progression (wouldn't want you to be TOO hard to kill ).  I've lowered the amount you get for d12 or robust because one extra hp/level does not seem to lead to a doubling of HD benefit.

The basic rules for hp/soak are as follows, Chris:  You have 15 hitpoints, the more damage you take, the larger of a penalty you take to all actions.  Armor does not give a bonus to AC, but gives the same bonus to "soak," as does Constitution.

Furthermore, you get a (house-ruled) soak-progression as follows: If you have a d12 hit die (or a d10 with robust), you gain +.3 to soak.  A d10 class gives you +.2 per level, a d8 gives +.15, and a d6 gives +.1.  All of this is rounded down, so suffice it to say no one but a tough 4 will have any soak among our players.

Also, toughness gives +1 soak.

Thomas, yes mithril chainmail is light armor for all purposes, including resting in it.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Dec 8, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Okay, clarification, I like the LOWER amount of soak progression (wouldn't want you to be TOO hard to kill ).  I've lowered the amount you get for d12 or robust because one extra hp/level does not seem to lead to a doubling of HD benefit.




I think the logic I used when originally tweaking those was that, in normal d20, robust=10 hit points over 10 levels, or about 3 toughness feats.  Ergo, taking Robust should equal about 3 toughness feats over the course of 10 levels, pegging robust at +.33 soak per level, or therabouts.

It mutated after that, but that was the starting point.  Anyway, what you arrived at works fine.



> All of this is rounded down...




To clarify, added up and rounded down.  So a Tough 5 with robust (+.3 per level) gets 1.5 soak, but that's rounded down to 1 until he takes another 2 levels of Tough.



> ... so suffice it to say no one but a tough 4 will have any soak among our players.




My Charistmatic 1/Fast 1/Tough 2/Strong 1 with robust begs to differ.

.1 Charismatic+.15 Fast+.15 Strong+.4 Tough+.2 Robust=1.

So hah!



> Also, toughness gives +1 soak.




And you can take Toughness a maximum of 3 times.

[/backseat DMing]


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