# Marvel's Iron Fist Season 2 - Much Better



## Hussar (Sep 24, 2018)

Disclaimer - I really, really did not like season one of Iron Fist.  I thought it was brutally bad.  Not even fun bad, but, just bad bad.  

So, when season 2 popped up on my Netflix, I didn't exactly rush out to binge watch it.  But, it was a slow day, and I thought I'd give it a shot.  

Wow, am I glad I did.  Story was great, characters were interesting and I really enjoyed it.  Gone was the boardroom drama and everything focused on the five characters.  Great stuff.  I wonder if their budget didn't get slashed pretty heavily from the last season considering most of the action happens in, what, three or four locations?  Whatever the reason, this was a great story and really worth the watch.

Although, I have one cultural nitpick, just because it bugs me.  In one of the really early episodes, Danny and Colleen are having dinner and fight over the last potsticker with their chopsticks.  If Colleen Wing was raised in Japan, the way the story says she is, there is ZERO chance she would do that.  It's culturally the equivalent of blowing your nose on the tablecloth.  You just do not do that.*  Yeah, it's a minor nitpick and it doesn't really matter, but, it's little details like that that make me realize that the writers have very little actual cultural experience when they write Asian characters.


*[sblock]The reason this is not done is the only time in Japanese culture that you would pass anything from chopstick to chopstick is during a funeral, after the body is cremated, you pass the bones along the family before placing them in an urn.  It really, really isn't done to play with your food like that with chopsticks.[/sblock]


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## Janx (Sep 24, 2018)

I agree it was better than IF1.  It seems like this season, the goal was to fix the problems with the characters.


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## Umbran (Sep 24, 2018)

I've heard it is better.  Not hat I had so many problems with the first season, but I'll still accept the upward trend of reviews.  I probably won't get around to watching it until October, unfortunately, but it gives me something to look forward to.


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## Ryujin (Sep 25, 2018)

Iron Fist Season 2: Danny learns adulting.


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## Hussar (Sep 25, 2018)

Ryujin said:


> Iron Fist Season 2: Danny learns adulting.




There is some truth to this.


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## Derren (Oct 21, 2018)

And its over.
Netflix cancelled Iron Fist (and Luke Cage).

Not a big loss in my opinion.


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## cmad1977 (Oct 21, 2018)

Kinda of too bad about LC. I thought the 2nd season was way better than the first and left the main character in an interesting place. 

That said I often thought the lead was the weakest link in that show so not super surprising.


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## jonesy (Oct 21, 2018)

I thought they used him better in the other Marvel shows. He was weakest on his own show.


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## Derren (Oct 21, 2018)

cmad1977 said:


> Kinda of too bad about LC. I thought the 2nd season was way better than the first and left the main character in an interesting place.
> 
> That said I often thought the lead was the weakest link in that show so not super surprising.




I thought LC was doomed from the start. Invulnerability is just a lame superpower to begin with.


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## Tonguez (Oct 21, 2018)

Im not sure the cancellations are so much an outright cancellation as much as they are a redeployment 

LC and Fisto are still going to appear in the other shows (ie Daredevil) and I do wonder if they are either a) setting up for a Heroes for Hire series (8 episodes ensemble) OR  b) taking the shows away from Netflix over to the Disney Streaming service

Heroes for Hire would be my preference


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## Umbran (Oct 21, 2018)

Just finished Iron Fist season 2 yesterday.  I was okay with the first season, but this was better.  They found their legs... just in time to get cancelled. 



Tonguez said:


> Heroes for Hire would be my preference




Mine too.  But, I don't think that's what they're going to do.

If you were *planning* a shift, you'd announce that - "We are going to go forward with these characters in a new show, Heroes for Hire!"  But they just *cancelled*.  

My first guess is that Disney backed up a truck of money to the Netflix offices and said, "While we have a solid licensing agreement, and you are entirely within your rights to continue making these shows, we don't really want to split our streaming audience across multiple platforms.  Please accept this truck of money as an alternative to producing the shows."

The real question is... are the main actors *still* under contract?  If so, we may see something more.  If they've wrapped up those contracts, they are done.


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## Hussar (Oct 21, 2018)

I hadn't heard that Luke Cage got the axe too.  Kinda a shame.  Both shows had a much stronger second season than first and they were both setting up some interesting stories for their third seasons.    

Here's hoping for a Heroes for Hire series.  I think that would be much stronger.


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## Umbran (Oct 26, 2018)

Hussar said:


> ... and they were both setting up some interesting stories for their third seasons.




I thought season 3 of Luke Cage was set up for, "Luke decides to become a dumpster fire."  There is no way, "hero decides to personally fill the crime lord power vacuum he created," ends up well for him.


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## Hussar (Oct 28, 2018)

Umbran said:


> I thought season 3 of Luke Cage was set up for, "Luke decides to become a dumpster fire."  There is no way, "hero decides to personally fill the crime lord power vacuum he created," ends up well for him.




Like I said, interesting.  Watching the implosion of characters is interesting.  At least to me.  That's why I love Daredevil and Jessica Jones.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 28, 2018)

Umbran said:


> I thought season 3 of Luke Cage was set up for, "Luke decides to become a dumpster fire."  There is no way, "hero decides to personally fill the crime lord power vacuum he created," ends up well for him.




I could very well see that they didn't really have a good idea on where to go from there and how to turn him into a hero again with that end. Maybe that caused for some "creative differences" overall. 

That said, I could see that Jessica Jones might beat/bone some sense into Luke again?


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## Hussar (Oct 29, 2018)

OTOH, I just watched the first episode of Season 3 of Daredevil.  WOW.  Not exactly standard superhero fare.  Really good stuff.  Slow, deliberate, and just atmospheric as hell.  I'm deliberately pacing myself and not bingeing this one.


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## Umbran (Oct 29, 2018)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> That said, I could see that Jessica Jones might beat/bone some sense into Luke again?




I don't think she's physically strong enough for the former.  The latter is pretty lame, unless they head towards the real relationship they have in the comics, and that's not really just "Luke Cage" any more, in that it isn't a solo show.


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## Umbran (Oct 29, 2018)

Hussar said:


> OTOH, I just watched the first episode of Season 3 of Daredevil.  WOW.  Not exactly standard superhero fare.  Really good stuff.  Slow, deliberate, and just atmospheric as hell.  I'm deliberately pacing myself and not bingeing this one.




I have watched all but the final episode of season 3.  And I agree, it is pretty darned good stuff, and actually presents things in a way that makes how the Kingpin operates... at least open to suspension of disbelief, if not plausible.

My takeaway from it is... I want to be Foggy Nelson when I grow up.  He's like... Captain America who can't punch worth a darn, but that makes him more, not less.  YMMV, of course.


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## billd91 (Oct 30, 2018)

Umbran said:


> I thought season 3 of Luke Cage was set up for, "Luke decides to become a dumpster fire."  There is no way, "hero decides to personally fill the crime lord power vacuum he created," ends up well for him.




And I don't think it was intended to end up well for him. I think we'd have been seeing stories focused on how power corrupts - or at least tempts one into corruption - before Luke pulled his head out of his posterior and became a better man again. Pretty good, meaty stuff for a season of a superhero show. Unfortunately, unless Marvel relaunches from this point on whatever Disney online engine they start up, we'll never know.


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## HawaiiSteveO (Oct 30, 2018)

Hussar said:


> OTOH, I just watched the first episode of Season 3 of Daredevil.  WOW.  Not exactly standard superhero fare.  Really good stuff.  Slow, deliberate, and just atmospheric as hell.  I'm deliberately pacing myself and not bingeing this one.




Finished DD3 yesterday, blown away! As good a show as I've ever seen - hands down. Going to start season 1 again. Golden age of TV indeed!


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## Umbran (Oct 30, 2018)

billd91 said:


> And I don't think it was intended to end up well for him. I think we'd have been seeing stories focused on how power corrupts - or at least tempts one into corruption - before Luke pulled his head out of his posterior and became a better man again. Pretty good, meaty stuff for a season of a superhero show.




Exactly.  And I thought that fall could very well be set up to leave him in a good place for Heroes for Hire to make sense.  This process would probably have enough besmirching that he's no longer super-respected in Harlem.  The endorsement deals fall through, he needs cash, and so on.


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## Cj Roberts (Nov 7, 2018)

Loved Season 2. I had to make a monk after watching it.


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## Umbran (Nov 30, 2018)

...And, they just cancelled Daredevil...

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/l...-netflix-as-marvel-roster-shrinks-two-1165162

Jessica Jones entered production in June, so we can presume they'll take that to fruition.  Punisher got greenlit for another season, but if they haven't actually gone too far into production, I won't be surprised if they just axe it.


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## Hussar (Nov 30, 2018)

Oh, well that sucks.  

Wonder if this is a Disney thing.  They're going to bring all the Marvel titles together under the new Disney pay service, maybe?


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## Vishal Gupta (Nov 30, 2018)

Iron Fist season 2 is upgraded but improved from the season 1.


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## billd91 (Nov 30, 2018)

Hussar said:


> Oh, well that sucks.
> 
> Wonder if this is a Disney thing.  They're going to bring all the Marvel titles together under the new Disney pay service, maybe?




I get the impression they aren't being relaunched on the Disney service - the actors don't seem to think so as far as I've seen. It seems to mostly be Disney/Marvel consolidating its IP to outlets it has at least part ownership of (*Runaways* and *Cloak and Dagger* are on Hulu (30% Disney) and FreeForm (100% Disney, I think)).


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## Tonguez (Dec 1, 2018)

billd91 said:


> I get the impression they aren't being relaunched on the Disney service - the actors don't seem to think so as far as I've seen. It seems to mostly be Disney/Marvel consolidating its IP to outlets it has at least part ownership of (*Runaways* and *Cloak and Dagger* are on Hulu (30% Disney) and FreeForm (100% Disney, I think)).




Hmm, yeah unlikely to be new seasons but the Characters are now freed up to use elsewhere and I for one would be happy if DOnofrio reprised his Kingpin in a Spiderman movie

or perhaps we'll see Luke Cage showing up in the 'new' New Avengers movie


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## Umbran (Feb 18, 2019)

And, surprising nobody, The Punisher and Jessica Jones are also now both cancelled.

To clarify - Jessica Jones is ending after its third season airs.  Which is nice.  I dunno if they have a chance to somehow put a bow on the end of it.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 18, 2019)

Watched a few episodes of Luke Cage, Jessica Jones and the Iron Fist pilot. Gave up when they announced cancelations but Iron Fist was rough. 

 Gotham and Agents if Shield were a bit better but gave up in them and Flash.


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## Sadras (Feb 19, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> Hmm, yeah unlikely to be new seasons but the Characters are now freed up to use elsewhere and I for one would be happy if DOnofrio reprised his Kingpin in a Spiderman movie
> 
> or perhaps we'll see Luke Cage showing up in the 'new' New Avengers movie




Two year moratorium.


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## Umbran (Feb 19, 2019)

Sadras said:


> Two year moratorium.




If they wanted to, they could throw money at it and make it go away.  I'm going to guess they don't want to.


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## cmad1977 (Feb 19, 2019)

As I understand it, Netflix stopped producing the shows mostly because they weren’t doing very well and they lose less money holding onto the rights for a couple years and NOT producing the shows.


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## Umbran (Feb 19, 2019)

cmad1977 said:


> As I understand it, Netflix stopped producing the shows mostly because they weren’t doing very well and they lose less money holding onto the rights for a couple years and NOT producing the shows.




You understand incorrectly.  Yes, the shows were slowly losing audience as the seasons stacked up, but that is true about most shows.  Their performance hadn't dropped so low, and they were getting good critical acclaim.  If there weren't other things in motion, they'd have continued.

The other things in motion are:

1) Disney's own streaming service.  Disney is going to pull *ALL* of its other content off Netflix.  And, they are aiming to have a solid lineup of their own new Marvel content.  So, if Netflix were to continue with the Defenders cluster of shows, every episode would effectively be an advertisement for the content over on Disney's streaming service, instead of keeping them on Netflix.

2) Demographics.  If there had been a large number of people who came to Netflix primarily for the Marvel content, they might have kept them.  But, it turns out that those people watching the Marvel shows were already avid Netflix customers, and/or very likely to keep coming to Netflix so long as they continued to have similarly high-quality content.  They were performing well, but not pulling in new customers that couldn't be pulled in by other content.

These two killed the shows.  If I can keep those viewers with other content, and not advertise for another service, that's the sound business choice.


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## Ryujin (Feb 19, 2019)

Umbran said:


> You understand incorrectly.  Yes, the shows were slowly losing audience as the seasons stacked up, but that is true about most shows.  Their performance hadn't dropped so low, and they were getting good critical acclaim.  If there weren't other things in motion, they'd have continued.
> 
> The other things in motion are:
> 
> ...




Despite the fact that I was actually a viewer who picked up Netflix precisely because of the Marvel content, I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis.


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## Umbran (Feb 19, 2019)

Ryujin said:


> Despite the fact that I was actually a viewer who picked up Netflix precisely because of the Marvel content, I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis.




Yes, and, at this point, if Netflix touted some new content that looked to have the same level of quality and complexity of theme, would you watch it, now that you have the service?

To an extent, we can consider that these shows have served their purpose, putting Netflix on the map for high-quality content.


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## Ryujin (Feb 19, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Yes, and, at this point, if Netflix touted some new content that looked to have the same level of quality and complexity of theme, would you watch it, now that you have the service?
> 
> To an extent, we can consider that these shows have served their purpose, putting Netflix on the map for high-quality content.




They've gone even further than that by producing movies the quality of "Bright" and "Annihilation", so the answer is yes.


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## Hussar (Feb 20, 2019)

Never minding that, they're also diving straight back into comic book fare with The Umbrella Academy.  Here, at least, we're also getting the DCU stuff on Netflix as well, including the new Teen Titans.

Could be that DC makes the move over to Netflix as well as other comic book companies like Dark Horse and the like.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 20, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Never minding that, they're also diving straight back into comic book fare with The Umbrella Academy.  Here, at least, we're also getting the DCU stuff on Netflix as well, including the new Teen Titans.
> 
> Could be that DC makes the move over to Netflix as well as other comic book companies like Dark Horse and the like.




I was thinking along those lines myself.  It would be gutsy if they did a Dark Horse Swiss centered on Titan, including his insanity and death.

Or maybe Astro City.  Or Powers.  Or Cerebus.


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## billd91 (Feb 20, 2019)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I was thinking along those lines myself.  It would be gutsy if they did a Dark Horse Swiss centered on Titan, including his insanity and death.
> 
> Or maybe Astro City.  Or Powers.  Or Cerebus.




As much as I like Cerebus, mainly the early stories, I wouldn't touch any licensing on that one with a 10 meter pole.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 20, 2019)

Just because Dave Sim’s views on things cultural might be a tad...inflammatory?  Solution to that: cap out the series to X many issues, or certain storylines.  The stuff with the Roach, Elrond, and Julius would be killer.

Hell...they could even do what production companies do either superheroes: come up with new stories based on and consistent with the original character, in this case, sans the ugly.


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## Janx (Feb 20, 2019)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Hell...they could even do what production companies do either superheroes: come up with new stories based on and consistent with the original character, in this case, sans the ugly.




EX, the Umbrella Academy.  Which I just finished watching.  That show has quite the buzz on my FB feed from friends, something I don't see about TV shows.


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## Umbran (Feb 20, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Could be that DC makes the move over to Netflix as well...




DC already has its own streaming service here in the US, so that's unlikely.


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## billd91 (Feb 20, 2019)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Just because Dave Sim’s views on things cultural might be a tad...inflammatory?  Solution to that: cap out the series to X many issues, or certain storylines.  The stuff with the Roach, Elrond, and Julius would be killer.
> 
> Hell...they could even do what production companies do either superheroes: come up with new stories based on and consistent with the original character, in this case, sans the ugly.




Partly because of his blatant misogyny, yes. But he’s also the poster kid of the independent comics movement, so I think negotiating licensing and authority control over any product with his IP would be a nightmare.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 20, 2019)

billd91 said:


> Partly because of his blatant misogyny, yes. But he’s also the poster kid of the independent comics movement, so I think negotiating licensing and authority control over any product with his IP would be a nightmare.




As to the first part, there’s plenty of stuff on TV and in films and on radio created by people with some pretty ugly personal histories.  Even in the age of #MeToo, Sim’s stuff could still be profitable, especially if handled as I described.  

And _because_ of his views, he probably wouldn’t have much negotiating leverage, so the big risk is just how cantankerous he wants to be in negotiations.


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## Hussar (Feb 20, 2019)

Umbran said:


> DC already has its own streaming service here in the US, so that's unlikely.




Oh, right.  forgot about that.  It's so weird that all the stuff that get's put behind paywalls in the States gets released on Netflix overseas a little bit later - STiscovery, Teen Titans, and a bunch of other stuff.

Now if Netflix Japan could just get with the program and get some of the newer seasons, that would be nice.  First five seasons of Supernatural only?  Seriously?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 21, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Oh, right.  forgot about that.  It's so weird that all the stuff that get's put behind paywalls in the States gets released on Netflix overseas a little bit later - STiscovery, Teen Titans, and a bunch of other stuff.
> 
> Now if Netflix Japan could just get with the program and get some of the newer seasons, that would be nice.  First five seasons of Supernatural only?  Seriously?




Netflix _is _a paywall. It's just one you already paid for.


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## Hussar (Feb 21, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Netflix _is _a paywall. It's just one you already paid for.




Well, at least it's only one paywall, rather than many.


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## Ryujin (Feb 21, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Well, at least it's only one paywall, rather than many.




Only one paywall if that's all that you want. The proliferation of paywalls is getting rather ridiculous.


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## Umbran (Feb 21, 2019)

Ryujin said:


> Only one paywall if that's all that you want. The proliferation of paywalls is getting rather ridiculous.




I am waiting for the meta-paywall.  A business that makes deals with the various paywalls, and offers packages of them to viewers, like your cable company today does with premium channels.  "Now, for $19.99 a month, you get Netflix, Hulu, CBS All-Access..."


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## lowkey13 (Feb 21, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Ryujin (Feb 21, 2019)

Umbran said:


> I am waiting for the meta-paywall.  A business that makes deals with the various paywalls, and offers packages of them to viewers, like your cable company today does with premium channels.  "Now, for $19.99 a month, you get Netflix, Hulu, CBS All-Access..."




Eventually that may happen but so far the closest that I've seen is The Fantasy Network but that brings together disparate independent content creators, not distributors.


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## Umbran (Feb 21, 2019)

Ryujin said:


> Eventually that may happen but so far the closest that I've seen is The Fantasy Network but that brings together disparate independent content creators, not distributors.




Well, that's the way it is going.  Netflix and Hulu carrying other people's content made sense when streaming services were new, and the content creators didn't want to be in the business of streaming.  But, the technology matured, and now standing up a streaming service is not a matter of developing new technology, but of implementing known solutions.  So, the content creators will pull their stuff back behind their own paywalls.  Disney is certainly pulling all their stuff off Netflix.  CBS will pull all their stuff off other platforms to be on CBS All Access, and so on.  

So, Netflix and Hulu won't have that much content from other parties.  They saw the writing on the wall, and became content creators themselves.  Soon, we get to every channel being a pay channel, which looks great for the producers, but is kind of crappy to manage for consumers.  Then, you get the meta-paywall, to manage it for you...

Lather, rinse, repeat.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 22, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Well, that's the way it is going.  Netflix and Hulu carrying other people's content made sense when streaming services were new, and the content creators didn't want to be in the business of streaming.  But, the technology matured, and now standing up a streaming service is not a matter of developing new technology, but of implementing known solutions.  So, the content creators will pull their stuff back behind their own paywalls.  Disney is certainly pulling all their stuff off Netflix.  CBS will pull all their stuff off other platforms to be on CBS All Access, and so on.
> 
> So, Netflix and Hulu won't have that much content from other parties.  They saw the writing on the wall, and became content creators themselves.  Soon, we get to every channel being a pay channel, which looks great for the producers, but is kind of crappy to manage for consumers.  Then, you get the meta-paywall, to manage it for you...
> 
> Lather, rinse, repeat.




 Just go back to downloading again pre Netflix style. Even 2-3 pay services are still cheaper than Satellite TV. Problem is when you will want 5+.


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## Umbran (Feb 22, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Just go back to downloading again pre Netflix style.




I will generally just miss a show entirely, rather than commit piracy.



> Even 2-3 pay services are still cheaper than Satellite TV. Problem is when you will want 5+.




Yeah.  It then starts getting to having to pay close attention to each service and ask whether you're really getting enough content from them to justify the expense.  CBS All Access is a fine example.  I haven't watched any of Discovery, because it is not worth it to me to pay for a single show that gets mixed reviews.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 22, 2019)

Umbran said:


> I will generally just miss a show entirely, rather than commit piracy.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.  It then starts getting to having to pay close attention to each service and ask whether you're really getting enough content from them to justify the expense.  CBS All Access is a fine example.  I haven't watched any of Discovery, because it is not worth it to me to pay for a single show that gets mixed reviews.



Come on, did Star Trek in the past really get non-mixed reviews? It hasn't really been mainstream TV in the past, and so you'd always get reviewers that "get" this kind of show, and those that just don't. Todays, there are tons more reviewers available, but does that mean they are also more reliable for your personal taste?

Not that I think 10-15 $ or whatever it costs is a price one should be willing to pay for the off-chance a series might be good.

As long as the vast majority of streaming services focuses on the US market, I am in a lucky position. Kinda a new thing here, because usually it took forever for shows to get here. But once CBS All Access and Disney decide the want in on the world-wide market, things could get annoying again. On the other hand, these services will still have to compete with piracy. Netflix + Prime have reached a price point and level of coverage combined with convenience that makes piracy uninteresting, I think, but if you add 4 more services, this might no longer be true.


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## Umbran (Feb 22, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Todays, there are tons more reviewers available, but does that mean they are also more reliable for your personal taste?




It means they are more reliable _when I choose what reviewers I listen to_ on a given genre because they have shown to match my tastes reasonably well.  

You had some ideas that I just take reviewers in aggregate, with no discernment, or something?


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## Neutron Penguin (Feb 22, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> Im not sure the cancellations are so much an outright cancellation as much as they are a redeployment
> 
> LC and Fisto are still going to appear in the other shows (ie Daredevil) and I do wonder if they are either a) setting up for a Heroes for Hire series (8 episodes ensemble) OR  b) taking the shows away from Netflix over to the Disney Streaming service
> 
> Heroes for Hire would be my preference




I think the new Disney streaming service is PG-13 so it'll be interesting to see if they do revive the shows there.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 22, 2019)

I'm starting to go with user scores over reviews these days. Theres some big disconects out there now, Orville being a prime example.


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