# PHB3 cover!



## Henrix (May 19, 2009)

The cover of PHB3 has been revealed (and it looks good!).

It seems that *Gith's* are in the book (yay! I'm an old gith'lover!), and *minotaurs*.

'*Psionic, Divine and Primal Heroes*'







(From the news about the DDI changes discussed elsewhere.)


Looks like a githyanki monk (and a great looking one!). 

But _more _divine classes?


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## avin (May 19, 2009)

link for websensed? maybe putting httpS instead of http?


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## Henrix (May 19, 2009)

avin said:


> link for websensed? maybe putting httpS instead of http?



Huh? What isn't working?


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## avin (May 19, 2009)

link for websensed? maybe putting httpS instead of http?


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## Klaus (May 19, 2009)

That's.

F******.

Awesome.


More Primal? More Divine? What's left from those two?


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## WarlockLord (May 19, 2009)

Wow, more primal and divine.  It seems WotC is determined to screw over those of us who want to play necromancers.  We've had 2 PHBs, and frankly, we've had more options with the 3.5 CORE RULES.  I have no real hope for the psionics, as frankly, the power system has really killed their main schtick, and we had it confirmed that most of the enchantment abilities are going to the psion instead of the wizard, supposedly for class diversity but really so WoTC can sell more books.  I don't see more stuff that I want to buy here, and I really don't think I was getting enough value for my money anyway with Insider.  A clunky compendium, a character builder (many, many free ones for 3.5) and frankly, the articles are rather...3 pages of fluff, 3 new powers you can supposedly use to flavor your character (which all become obsolete,, as per 4e's power swap), and...19:98 of a 3 month subscription down the drain.  No way am I renewing that.  And MORE primal and divine seem to be "hey, lets fill out the book so we don't have to introduce more power sources! You have to buy PHB 4 too, suckers!"  Worst thing is, I can't find any 3.5 stuff, as the 4e things are everywhere.  

At least I got 2e books cheap...


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## Rechan (May 19, 2009)

I'm surprised there's no new martial class, since Marital Power 2 would be out next year.

I can see room for an Archivist class. The Archivist was buitl up around being a monster hunter (monster knowledge powers). Something that functions like a ranged Avenger would be rather cool to me.


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## Ethalias (May 19, 2009)

Klaus said:


> More Primal? More Divine? What's left from those two?




New stuff mostly I'd guess. Not sure what design space there is, I guess we'll have to wait and see.. Perhaps there are more than 4 psionic classes and only one or two primal and divine.

Am I the only one who's thought when seeing the minotaur was "What, MORE?"? DDI already has a racial write up on them..


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## Rechan (May 19, 2009)

Ethalias said:


> Am I the only one who's thought when seeing the minotaur was "What, MORE?"? DDI already has a racial write up on them..



Methinks WotC wants to cash in on selling the DDi material to those who do not have DDi.


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## shilsen (May 19, 2009)

Nice!

That's some of the best cover artwork I've seen in 4e thus far.


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## Silversun (May 19, 2009)

Henrix said:


> '*Psionic, Divine and Primal Heroes*'



WOO-HOO! 4E PSIONICS CONFIRMED FOR PHB3!! 



Rechan said:


> Methinks WotC wants to cash in on selling the DDi material to those who do not have DDi.



And personally, I'm grateful.


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2009)

That;s a cool cover.  I wonder what they will to do flesh out the Divine and Primal sources?  And do we have a confirmed list of Psionic classes yet?

I like what they are doing with DDI and the PHB3.  Makes me want to extend my subscription.



WarlockLord said:


> I don't see more stuff that I want to buy here, and I really don't think I was getting enough value for my money anyway with Insider.  A clunky compendium, a character builder (many, many free ones for 3.5) and frankly, the articles are rather...3 pages of fluff, 3 new powers you can supposedly use to flavor your character (which all become obsolete,, as per 4e's power swap), and...19:98 of a 3 month subscription down the drain.  No way am I renewing that.



Huh.... we have wildly different experiences with DDI.  I dig the compendium and the character builder is much better than any 3.5 ones I ever used.

Now.... If I could only get a campaign manager and combat manager.


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## chronoplasm (May 19, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Methinks WotC wants to cash in on selling the DDi material to those who do not have DDi.




That, and some of us like to be able to hold the material in our hands... in book format.

Since the ki power source is gone, I wonder if these new primal and divine classes will be asian-themed?
Perhaps we could be getting the Shugenja as a new divine or primal leader?
Didn't the Sohei get 'Divine Whirlwind' or something like that? Perhaps they could be divine controllers focused on weapon attacks and close bursts?
Yamabushi mountain hermits could make for a good primal class. I think some kind of 'Hermit' class in general could make for a good primal class.


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## Ethalias (May 19, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Methinks WotC wants to cash in on selling the DDi material to those who do not have DDi.




Methinks you might be right.  The Dragon & Dungeon annual is apparently not enough. Seems a shame. Still, there's at least ONE new race in the book (who's name was the subject of much debate: Wilding/Wilder/Wildtastic..).

PH3 is the first book that I'm getting mixed feelings about.. Still, I guess we'll see more over the coming months..


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## Jack99 (May 19, 2009)

That's an awesome cover. I am surprised about the choice of power sources to support, but must admit that it doesn't matter so much.


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## Mephistopheles (May 19, 2009)

Nice artwork.

Divine has featured in all three Player's Handbooks. I would have thought Martial, Primal, and Psionic as the sources for PH3, perhaps.



Rechan said:


> I can see room for an Archivist class. The Archivist was buitl up around being a monster hunter (monster knowledge powers). Something that functions like a ranged Avenger would be rather cool to me.




Blizzard are on it: meet the Archivist (if you haven't already).


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## Klaus (May 19, 2009)

Maybe they'll do the Necromancer as a Divine class?


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## Urizen (May 19, 2009)

oooh.. sweet cover.

And bulls!

Now I can play my favorite tauren from World of Warcraft!


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## Rechan (May 19, 2009)

Mephistopheles said:


> > Blizzard are on it: meet the Archivist (if you haven't already).
> 
> 
> 
> That comes off far too cartoonish for my tastes.


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## Pseudonym (May 20, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Now.... If I could only get a campaign manager and combat manager.




I'd settle for a Character Builder that didn't require .NET to function.

No luv for linux.


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## Rechan (May 20, 2009)

Yeah, I bet some of the classes that were meant for Ki are now Divine/Primal.


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## drothgery (May 20, 2009)

Klaus said:


> More Primal? More Divine? What's left from those two?




I wouldn't be surprised if the subtitle's a temporary one hacked by modifying the PH2 subtitle with Psionic because they don't want to reveal everything that's in PH3 yet. Shadow would pretty much guarantee ninja or assassin and necromancer; elemental would pretty much guarantee shujenga and wu jen.


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## ppaladin123 (May 20, 2009)

Mephistopheles said:


> Blizzard are on it: meet the Archivist (if you haven't already).




You know that was an April Fool's joke right?

Blizzard always seems to introduce classes from d&d as jokes. They did the same with the bard in WoW.  It is a sly nod to the source material they are constantly ripping off (if the diablo III wizard casting magic missile and time stop wasn't enough).


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## I'm A Banana (May 20, 2009)

> That's some of the best cover artwork I've seen in 4e thus far.




Agreed. The Githyanki/Githzerai have been really lucky to have a dynamite illustrator drawing them so far in 4e, every time. The minotaur is whatever (though hints strongly at a certain campaign setting...), but I'm looking forward to the best rules for 'zerai since 2e, and also stoked because I don't think WotC has done a whole lot to beat the snot out of their core story from earlier editions. 



> Blizzard are on it: meet the Archivist (if you haven't already).




Honestly, I would play this guy much faster than I would play even the 3e archivist. The 3e archivist was all well and good, but the power of words and tomes is the wizard's schtick in D&D, and, sadly, they don't have a lot to reinforce that archetype in 4e.


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## Shroomy (May 20, 2009)

I figured that the PHB3 would feature more primal content given the inclusion of the wildren, and the psionic power source seemed like a no-brainer but more divine classes was definitely a surprise.  I wonder what divine classes they'll include; I guess we'll get a better idea of what archetypes remain after _Divine Power_ is released?

I do love the cover; that artist (I forget his name) is one of my favorites.


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## Nymrohd (May 20, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Mephistopheles said:
> 
> 
> > That comes off far too cartoonish for my tastes.
> ...


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## Mephistopheles (May 20, 2009)

ppaladin123 said:


> You know that was an April Fool's joke right?
> 
> Blizzard always seems to introduce classes from d&d as jokes. They did the same with the bard in WoW.  It is a sly nod to the source material they are constantly ripping off (if the diablo III wizard casting magic missile and time stop wasn't enough).




Yes. 

I couldn't help myself because I agree with the sentiment behind the joke: you take a clerk and send him off to fight monsters.


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## Nymrohd (May 20, 2009)

ppaladin123 said:


> You know that was an April Fool's joke right?
> 
> Blizzard always seems to introduce classes from d&d as jokes. They did the same with the bard in WoW.  It is a sly nod to the source material they are constantly ripping off (if the diablo III wizard casting magic missile and time stop wasn't enough).




Well the WoW Bard april's fool joke was more of a Guitar Hero joke (and it would have rocked as a WoW class far more than those pesky deathknights! I mean the three builts were metal, rock and punk).


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## FreeTheSlaves (May 20, 2009)

A _major _step up with the artwork. 

I've noted the work of this artist in the past, it's a much more pleasingly realistic look. They couldn't resist the female in a tank-top, but hey, it's a half step in the right direction.

Overall, well done WotC


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## Fallen Seraph (May 20, 2009)

That cover is undoubtedly the best 4e cover yet (and it is the one with Psionics too so even better!) I hope they get the artist to do more book covers and art in general for 4e.

As for classes/races, etc. Well this hopefully means that with Psionics being the big focus that more races will be Psionic oriented, ie; Elan!

For Primal and Divine, I would like to see more experimentation perhaps divorcing them from one aspect to reinforce another. Such as a Primal class with no nature bent and entirely spirit oriented. Or Divine that can't/doesn't worship a god but something else entirely.

To do really random and entirely without any evidence of which speculation based on the cover. I could see a glyph/sigil based magic class given the glyphs on the Minotaur's armour and mace. Also for the Minotaur I would like to see alternative stats for it. So got DDI Minotaur and PHB3 Minotaur, though both can take their races feats, paragon paths, etc.

Edit: nvm, I was mistaken.


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## SpydersWebbing (May 20, 2009)

Well I feel sorta Ninja'd, considering what I put in the other thread about PhB3...

Oh well! I hope they do a good job with what they have.


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## Wormwood (May 20, 2009)

WarlockLord said:


> It seems WotC is determined to screw over those of us who want to play necromancers.




Some possible reasons we have no 4e Necromancers:

1. Insufficient interest.
2. Difficult to fit them properly in the 4e design space.
3. Wizards hates you.



> I really don't think I was getting enough value for my money anyway with Insider.  A clunky compendium, a character builder (many, many free ones for 3.5) and frankly, the articles are rather...3 pages of fluff, 3 new powers you can supposedly use to flavor your character (which all become obsolete,, as per 4e's power swap), and...19:98 of a 3 month subscription down the drain.  No way am I renewing that.




The Compendium is clunky, the 4e Character Builder is not *amazingly* superior to Heroforge and its ilk, and the Dungeon/Dragon articles are useless?

Let's just say that I have _no idea _what you are talking about.


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## Nymrohd (May 20, 2009)

Hmm yes some form of runecaster would be nice to have. Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed made a very decent attempt at a runecaster but both TSR and WotC D&D always lacked a well thought rune based class which is a same given how classic a concept runic magic is (they did make some attempts, like the runecaster from the Giants book from AD&D FR, but that was really just a concept).


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## I'm A Banana (May 20, 2009)

> I couldn't help myself because I agree with the sentiment behind the joke: you take a clerk and send him off to fight monsters.




I *still* think it's cool, but I'm a weirdo and think the concept of a butt-kicking librarian slaying monsters with the power of the Dewey Decimal System is really rather amazing. 

But I guess I'm strange, so I'm apparently the only one who cares that 4e wizards don't adequately represent that archetype....oh well.


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## Quickleaf (May 20, 2009)

Michael Komarck is the man. Why they weren't using his art for their PHB covers before is beyond me.

I'm surprised they want to add more divine or primal classes - both seem full of great concepts already. I suspect the subtitle is a temporary hack, and we'll see only new power sources in PH3.


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## lutecius (May 20, 2009)

I love the cover. Easily the best 4e cover so far, and I don't even care for giths. I bet Michael Komarck could have made the tiefling and dragonborn look cool.

As for the power sources...


WarlockLord said:


> Wow, more primal and divine.  It seems WotC is determined to screw over those of us who want to play necromancers.  We've had 2 PHBs, and frankly, we've had more options with the 3.5 CORE RULES.  I have no real hope for the psionics, as frankly, the power system has really killed their main schtick, and we had it confirmed that most of the enchantment abilities are going to the psion instead of the wizard, supposedly for class diversity but really so WoTC can sell more books. [...]  And MORE primal and divine seem to be "hey, lets fill out the book so we don't have to introduce more power sources! You have to buy PHB 4 too, suckers!"



xps for saving me the trouble of typing this myself.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 20, 2009)

I could very well imagine Michael Komarck's costs for doing artwork is much higher then some artist. Which could very well explain the lack of his artwork all over 4e.

Him and Diterlizzi are my favourite D&D artist.


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## Nymrohd (May 20, 2009)

Hmm I just noticed, the playtest in the Calendar has changed to hybrid characters alongside a Design and Development article: Editorial Calendar

I think they need to find some way to make DDI articles more secure and harder to pirate, and fast. Every article is available for free immediately after release on several spots. Would it be that bad if the individual articles were only available while logged in and the issue compilation was watermarked?


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## chaotix42 (May 20, 2009)

Great cover! I knew gith were gonna be in there! I wonder if they'll put both githyanki and githzerai in the PH3 in a fashion similar to shifters?

The gith is obviously a monk... I wonder what the minotaur is?


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## Fallen Seraph (May 20, 2009)

Nymrohd said:


> Hmm I just noticed, the playtest in the Calendar has changed to hybrid characters alongside a Design and Development article: Editorial Calendar



I wonder if this will be the classes missing from the other Hybrid Playtest.


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## chaotix42 (May 20, 2009)

Nymrohd said:


> Hmm I just noticed, the playtest in the Calendar has changed to hybrid characters alongside a Design and Development article: Editorial Calendar




Wasn't it originally a MM3 playtest?

Even though I just got the MM2 I'm a little miffed.


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## Riley (May 20, 2009)

Wow.  The cover's a huge improvement over the PH1 and PH2.  Very nice.

The Gith and Minotaurs are good choices.  I was a bit worried by the plant-guy that they previewed.


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## Nymrohd (May 20, 2009)

chaotix42 said:


> Wasn't it originally a MM3 playtest?
> 
> Even though I just got the MM2 I'm a little miffed.




Honestly I don't even get what a monster manual plytest is like. I do know though that hybrid classes need to be playtested thoroughly.


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## Rechan (May 20, 2009)

I'm going to start this early: I hope the dromites are in the book.  

Or Tri-keen.

Go Bug people!


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## Fallen Seraph (May 20, 2009)

I be quite happy to see Thri-keen, though if there is no Elan in a book with Psionics then I will be most displeased *in best evil voice*


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## Vael (May 20, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I'm going to start this early: I hope the dromites are in the book.
> 
> Or Tri-keen.
> 
> Go Bug people!




Word. Power to the bugs!


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## chaotix42 (May 20, 2009)

Nymrohd said:


> Honestly I don't even get what a monster manual plytest is like. I do know though that hybrid classes need to be playtested thoroughly.




You're 100% right, of course. 

I just love new monsters.


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## ppaladin123 (May 20, 2009)

Here is a sneaking suspicion I have for the divine classes in PHB3:

There will be two new classes. They will be called something like, "crusader," and, "priest." The crusader will be a single primary stat defender designed to replace the paladin. The priest will be a single primary stat leader designed to replace the cleric. Viola! No more problems with dual primary stat classes. 


(I'm thinking here about how the Bo9S crusader was essentially designed as a replacement paladin.)


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## RefinedBean (May 20, 2009)

ppaladin123 said:


> There will be two new classes. They will be called something like, "crusader," and, "priest." The crusader will be a single primary stat defender designed to replace the paladin. The priest will be a single primary stat leader designed to replace the cleric. Viola! No more problems with dual primary stat classes.




Think of the storm there will be, if you're correct.  It'll be glorious.  

I'm going to agree with previous posters and say that the primal/divine subtitle is probably just a red-herring, or a mistake.  Or at least, I hope.  I'm interested to see what further distinctions can be found between power sources.

Although if WotC doesn't think they can make separate power sources any more distinct than they are, I'd rather have them expand existing ones than produce something lame.


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## cdrcjsn (May 20, 2009)

ppaladin123 said:


> Here is a sneaking suspicion I have for the divine classes in PHB3:
> 
> There will be two new classes. They will be called something like, "crusader," and, "priest." The crusader will be a single primary stat defender designed to replace the paladin. The priest will be a single primary stat leader designed to replace the cleric. Viola! No more problems with dual primary stat classes.
> 
> ...




Doubt it.  Just releasing more powers for those classes fixes all their problems and we're likely to see that in Divine Power.  No need for an entirely new class.

A divine striker that's more of a caster would be neat.  As would a healer class that doesn't deal damage but buffs the snot out of their party to compensate.


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## Rechan (May 20, 2009)

Why would WotC want a red herring? They seem rather eager to give us hints and previews.


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## Remathilis (May 20, 2009)

ppaladin123 said:


> Here is a sneaking suspicion I have for the divine classes in PHB3:
> 
> There will be two new classes. They will be called something like, "crusader," and, "priest." The crusader will be a single primary stat defender designed to replace the paladin. The priest will be a single primary stat leader designed to replace the cleric. Viola! No more problems with dual primary stat classes.
> 
> (I'm thinking here about how the Bo9S crusader was essentially designed as a replacement paladin.)




Nah. I think it will shake down like this...

Divine Power will introduce a bunch of new powers for clerics (all keyed off wisdom, some using Str as a secondary stat, some using cha as a secondary stat) and paladins (all keyed off cha, some using str as a secondary, some using wis). 

In addition, there will be a feat called Divine Focus: [Heroic] Benefit: Choose Wisdom OR charisma. All powers with the divine keyword use that stat instead of their normal score. 

Viola! You've fixed str clerics and str paladins!


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## Nymrohd (May 20, 2009)

cdrcjsn said:


> Doubt it.  Just releasing more powers for those classes fixes all their problems and we're likely to see that in Divine Power.  No need for an entirely new class.
> 
> A divine striker that's more of a caster would be neat.  As would a healer class that doesn't deal damage but buffs the snot out of their party to compensate.




Agree completely, the problem with most V shaped classes is not that they are MAD but that they don't have enough options to support each built well. The starlock for one is in far better shape now after Arcane Power than he was before. The same will happen to paladins and clerics with Divine Power.


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## RefinedBean (May 20, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Why would WotC want a red herring? They seem rather eager to give us hints and previews.




Fair enough.  They're also prone to making mistakes, so that might be the case.


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## Shroomy (May 20, 2009)

Fallen Seraph said:


> I be quite happy to see Thri-keen, though if there is no Elan in a book with Psionics then I will be most displeased *in best evil voice*




I think that the elan are a lock for PHB3; a psionically inclined, aberrant humanoid race that doesn't look extremely freaky.  Its a natural fit.


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## Klaus (May 20, 2009)

Fallen Seraph said:


> That cover is undoubtedly the best 4e cover yet (and it is the one with Psionics too so even better!) I hope they get the artist to do more book covers and art in general for 4e.




Michael Komarck already did the cover for the FR Campaign Setting.



lutecius said:


> I love the cover. Easily the best 4e cover so far, and I don't even care for giths. I bet Michael Komarck could have made the tiefling and dragonborn look cool.




Look at the first illustration in the MM1. It's by Komarck and features a tiefling (alongside other PCs) staring down at a horde of monsters, from skeletons to a red dragon.


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## Klaus (May 20, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> I think that the elan are a lock for PHB3; a psionically inclined, aberrant humanoid race that doesn't look extremely freaky.  Its a natural fit.



I think the elan will be rolled into the Kalashtar. In Eberron elan are quori spirits forced into humanoid bodies as punishment, while the kalashtar are a volutary merge of human and quori.


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## Rechan (May 20, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> I think that the elan are a lock for PHB3; a psionically inclined, aberrant humanoid race that doesn't look extremely freaky.  Its a natural fit.



I never really understood the draw to Elan. I understand that they are artificially created (The fantasy equivalent of grown in a vat), but... they're identical to humans.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 20, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I never really understood the draw to Elan. I understand that they are artificially created (The fantasy equivalent of grown in a vat), but... they're identical to humans.



Their physical appearance yes. But not their physical limits such as endurance, life span, psionic capabilities, etc. 

There is also a mystery behind them. In them choosing specific Human to become a Elan, the act to become a Elan, their secret enclaves, etc. There is also the mystique of being hidden and something else then you seem.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 20, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Michael Komarck already did the cover for the FR Campaign Setting.



Woops, your right. I don't personally own it so I forgot. Well he should still do more


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## Traycor (May 20, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I can see room for an Archivist class. The Archivist was buitl up around being a monster hunter (monster knowledge powers). Something that functions like a ranged Avenger would be rather cool to me.




You can check out some cool videos of an Archivist class here.

Pure. Awesome.


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## I'm A Banana (May 20, 2009)

Mmmm, bug people.

Though with 4e's "Everything, now with more sexy!" mantra, I'm half expecting bug-bewbs.


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## Felon (May 20, 2009)

ppaladin123 said:


> Here is a sneaking suspicion I have for the divine classes in PHB3:
> 
> There will be two new classes. They will be called something like, "crusader," and, "priest." The crusader will be a single primary stat defender designed to replace the paladin. The priest will be a single primary stat leader designed to replace the cleric. Viola! No more problems with dual primary stat classes.
> 
> ...






RefinedBean said:


> Think of the storm there will be, if you're correct.  It'll be glorious.
> 
> I'm going to agree with previous posters and say that the primal/divine subtitle is probably just a red-herring, or a mistake.  Or at least, I hope.  I'm interested to see what further distinctions can be found between power sources.
> 
> Although if WotC doesn't think they can make separate power sources any more distinct than they are, I'd rather have them expand existing ones than produce something lame.






cdrcjsn said:


> Doubt it.  Just releasing more powers for those classes fixes all their problems and we're likely to see that in Divine Power.  No need for an entirely new class.
> 
> A divine striker that's more of a caster would be neat.  As would a healer class that doesn't deal damage but buffs the snot out of their party to compensate.



There was little fuss over the sorcerer handily displacing the warlock as the arcane damage-dealer, and the warlock certainly didn't get less MAD with Arcane Power, so ppaladin's predictions shouldn't be dismissed out-of-hand. WotC isn't above patching by displacement.


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## Rechan (May 20, 2009)

Traycor said:


> You can check out some cool videos of an Archivist class here.
> 
> Pure. Awesome.



Someone posted that on the first page of the thread.


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## Rechan (May 20, 2009)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Mmmm, bug people.
> 
> Though with 4e's "Everything, now with more sexy!" mantra, I'm half expecting bug-bewbs.



1) Practically everything that was female in 3e had boobs. Need I show you the MM pic of the Harpy and her droopy boobies? Or the Medusa and her scaly boobies? 

2) Even though the female Dragonborn _do_ have breasts, I... don't really find them all that Sexy. 

3) I think a bug chick could be sexy*. I could show you pictures... 

Yeah yeah, I know. Damn furries. 

*But that's before you account for the risks. Being a male insect is hazardous to your health.


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## Obryn (May 20, 2009)

Amazing cover.  Simply unbelievable.

(I'm guessing the minotaur is a psychic warrior, FWIW.)

-O


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## I'm A Banana (May 20, 2009)

I don't want to derail this tooooooooo much, but briefly:

1) If those weren't actual mythical beasts that were normally depicted as female, and often with exposed breasts (including in previous editions), thus granting the artists the creative license, not to mention artistic significance, you'd have a point. Notice how no one's pointing out the gazongas on the 4e succubus...same thing for those guys.

2) I didn't mean to imply direct erotic appeal in "more sexy." I think the concept and art direction is broader than that, and probably comes from a place of seeing PC's as player avatars.

3) Whatever knocks your socks off, dude. Post pix up at the Circvs.


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## TheWyrd (May 20, 2009)

Everyone goes for the Elan. I was rather fond of the Maenads. The crystal encrusted skin was just an awesome feature. I always wanted to play a Maenad Barbarian/Wilder who gained his psychic abilities from a wellspring of Supernatural Anger. If I could have found a way in 3.5 for it not to suck, I would have.


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## Dice4Hire (May 20, 2009)

Well, looks like I will be buying it. 

It does say 'Psionic' after all. The divine is just a bonus.


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## I'm A Banana (May 20, 2009)

I was actually a fan of most of the PsiHB races. Half-giants were keen, Maenads saw the most play in my game, Elan had a weirdness to them, the Giths have been keen for always, the Thri-Kreen have a soft spot in my heart, and the dromites are keen. The Xephs were always a little weak in my mind, but they had their own schtick that was all right. I'd like to see all of them in print again, and it will be interesting to see which races the 4e folks think have enough "traction" to be in the PH3.


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## Silversun (May 20, 2009)

TheWyrd said:


> Everyone goes for the Elan. I was rather fond of the Maenads. The crystal encrusted skin was just an awesome feature.



The Maenads are my favourite of the psionic races too. They have a certain appeal that's makes them a natural choice as an Erudite/Psion over the other races.


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## Traycor (May 20, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Someone posted that on the first page of the thread.




I'm slow.


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## Spatula (May 20, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I never really understood the draw to Elan.



Really good racial ability if you play a psionic class + aberration type (immunity to humanoid-only spells, no particular weaknesses) + looks 100% human + no LA.  That was my theory, anyway.


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## Tarrl (May 20, 2009)

What is MAD?


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## Invisible Stalker (May 20, 2009)

Psionics... UGH!

I'll be passing on this one.


Great cover though


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## Hjorimir (May 20, 2009)

Tarrl said:


> What is MAD?



Multiple Ability Dependency; classes that need a lot of different stats for their powers basically.


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## blargney the second (May 20, 2009)

I love the Komarck cover.  There must be a waiting list to get in as one of his groupies.
-blarg


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## Tarrl (May 20, 2009)

Thank you!


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## The_Fan (May 20, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Mephistopheles said:
> 
> 
> > That comes off far too cartoonish for my tastes.
> ...


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## Plane Sailing (May 20, 2009)

Klaus said:


> I think the elan will be rolled into the Kalashtar. In Eberron elan are quori spirits forced into humanoid bodies as punishment, while the kalashtar are a volutary merge of human and quori.




Gosh I hope not. I thought the ideas about shoehorning elan into Eberron by the process you mention was an awful idea. NIMC!


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## EnglishScribe (May 20, 2009)

*Power Placeholder*

The power list is almost certainly a placeholder due to the ordering of the powers.  PHB 1 & 2 have the power list in alphabetical order:

Arcane, Divine & Martial

Arcane, Divine & Primal

If the power list on PBH 3 was the final list it would read:

Divine, Primal & Psionic.


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## Mephistopheles (May 20, 2009)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I *still* think it's cool, but I'm a weirdo and think the concept of a butt-kicking librarian slaying monsters with the power of the Dewey Decimal System is really rather amazing.
> 
> But I guess I'm strange, so I'm apparently the only one who cares that 4e wizards don't adequately represent that archetype....oh well.




Now that I think about it...my sister is a librarian, and the scale of her response to crimes against books or the defiling of the sanctity of the DDC can be impressive: nothing but dailies and nothing but crits. I may have to concede that the archivist is a viable class concept.


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## WalterKovacs (May 20, 2009)

By the time that PH3 drops, there will be 6 arcane classes (counting artificer and swordmage), so they could go with more divine and primal.

Also, with the "death" of ki, they can move some things around. The ki power source likely would have been some kind of subdivision of the monk (like primal sort of sub divided the druid role). So, a divine and primal monklike concept could be possible. Maybe a cloistered cleric type more like a friar tuck type monk, or a sort of "Animal Man" type character that uses anmal themed combat styles, not so much a beast form like the druid, but a kind of animal themed monk.


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## Ginnel (May 20, 2009)

Hmm aren't we fairly overly subscribed with hard strong races, I was gonna put tall but Dwarf needed to fit in this section too 

Hard strong races: Dragonborn, Half Orc, Dwarf, Warforged, Shifter, Goliath,      Minotaur?

Stealthy races: Elf, Shifter, Drow, Halfling,   Gith?

Special magical races: Eladrin, Genasi, Gnome, Tiefling, Deva.

Peoplish races: Human. Half Elf

Would possibly put Drow in the magical races section but meh, the Minotaur has glowy eyes I really really really hope this is a class feature 

Monks under the psionic power source anyone?



By the by nice spot on the alphabetical order of power sources in previous PHBs I'll quite happily believe that these aren't the confirmed power sources yet, just seems to be a bit weird with the nice symmetry they had going on.


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## Charwoman Gene (May 20, 2009)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> The minotaur is whatever (though hints strongly at a certain campaign setting...)




What campaign setting?


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## fba827 (May 20, 2009)

Charwoman Gene said:


> What campaign setting?




I believe minotaurs were featured as a key race in the Dragonlance setting (but I could be remembering wrong).


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## Charwoman Gene (May 20, 2009)

I thought about that after I posted.  That is probably what they meant, for all it makes no sense to me for them to ever do DL.


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## Charwoman Gene (May 20, 2009)

*New Setting:  Far Realms Influenced?*

The next setting is supposed to have a far realms influence.  None of the obvious candidates have a clear Far-Realms thing going on.  So what is it?

I think it is Dark Sun.  Dark Sun rebooted.  Dark sun where far realms invasions are behind it all and there is enough wilderness remaining that Primal characters have a lot to do.


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## Silverblade The Ench (May 20, 2009)

That cover is awesome 
Always liked the gith folk, but minoaturs are much more fun to me than drow and other "in-crowd" races, hehe!

Actually had custom minotaur race in my homebrew, sort of Viking-like folk who loved adventuring for the sheer sake of their lust for life, and they invented the settings main unarmed combat style, so monks actually learned thier skills from the minotaurs.
(Battle-clerics and monks are their "holy" folk, as it were)

Nothing says "_Who's yer Daddy?" _quite like an 8' tall minotaur grandmaster monk, eh? 

now I can have them again in 4th ed, woot!


Dark Sun would be a likely candidate for new setting, I ADORE Dark Sun, along with Spelljammer (see my artwork), but so would Planescape, with PHB3.

However, Dark Sun, for the love of all that's polyhedral  do Not DARE add in all the new 4th ed races etc etc, or they'd make it a joke. 
Tough luck, githzerai/yanki, drow, dragoborn etc do NOT fit into Dark Sun, the beauty of Dark Sun is that it is *not like most D&D settings*.
Keep it that way or they'd ruin it.

Humans, mul, Athasian half-elves, halflings, elves and dwarves, half-giants and thri-kreen are thr proper PC races for Dark Sun. Live with it.

4th ed rangers (way they are now as a light-armoured striker) and warlords are a great addition to D&D that would fit in perfectly to Dark Sun. Clerics would need tweaking, new powers to reflect the elements.
Druids, hm...

Preserving/defiling could be easily shown by adding a defiling "feat". Defilers *are* more powerful than preservers, they won after all. 
Just make defiling = unaligned or evil, add +1 hit/damage -1 saves, for spells, with more defiling feats making it even nastier, but, at the cost that defliers can only cast spells so often as they destroy the very "fuel" for their spells as they cast?

4th ed lends itself very well to the oddities of Dark Sun, IMHO


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## Klaus (May 20, 2009)

Maybe Shugenja as a Primal class, Sohei as Divine and Monk (confirmed) as Psionic?

Maybe a ranged Divine striker?


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## Jack99 (May 20, 2009)

Charwoman Gene said:


> The next setting is supposed to have a far realms influence.  None of the obvious candidates have a clear Far-Realms thing going on.  So what is it?
> 
> I think it is Dark Sun.  Dark Sun rebooted.  Dark sun where far realms invasions are behind it all and there is enough wilderness remaining that Primal characters have a lot to do.




Nah, it's the PoL world that Wyatt uses for his Greenbriar Campaign - It fits with primal stuff like the Wilder and the Far Realm influence etc.


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## Plane Sailing (May 20, 2009)

Charwoman Gene said:


> The next setting is supposed to have a far realms influence.  None of the obvious candidates have a clear Far-Realms thing going on.  So what is it?
> 
> I think it is Dark Sun.  Dark Sun rebooted.  Dark sun where far realms invasions are behind it all and there is enough wilderness remaining that Primal characters have a lot to do.




nah, Eberron!

Xoriat is the 'far realm', source of a major war/catastrophe in the campaigns history, source of Daelkyr and all aberrations.

Eberron can have a big far-realms vibe to it (unlike Dark Sun, which doesn't)


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## Nebulous (May 20, 2009)

shilsen said:


> Nice!
> 
> That's some of the best cover artwork I've seen in 4e thus far.




Agreed, that cover is BAD-ASS.  See, if they'd pulled something like that out for the PHB1 there wouldn't have been so much hate flying around. I knew they could do it...


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## Upper_Krust (May 20, 2009)

Totally love the cover! 

However, I am more interested to see the cover for Monster Manual 3, if its the same artist then I am sure its in good hands. Though just who will be on the cover I wonder...Asmodeus...Lolth...Cerberus?


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## Sir Osis of Liver (May 20, 2009)

Well at least this cover is a little better then the horrid Forgotten Realms one, but it's still far from great. IMO. I LOVE WAR's stuff, so this really a huge disapointment.

I hope the powersource listing is a place holder, i think it would be much better to get two or three new powersources. Not sure there is much more to do with the old ones. How many options do we really need in each role for each source?


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## vagabundo (May 20, 2009)

Charwoman Gene said:


> What campaign setting?




While Minotars might hint at Dragonlance, Psionics might hint at Dark Sun...

Take your pick.


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## Henrix (May 20, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> Eberron can have a big far-realms vibe to it (unlike Dark Sun, which doesn't)




Indeed Eberron - a world of mutated batweird monsters.

I seem to recall complaints that the 4e Realms were eberronized by the inclusion of spellscarred monstrosities


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## Piratecat (May 20, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I never really understood the draw to Elan. I understand that they are artificially created (The fantasy equivalent of grown in a vat), but... they're identical to humans.



I think you're misremembering. They're actual people who have traded their humanity for eternal life and vitality. So your 20th lvl fighter gets accepted for "conversion" into an elan, and they come out at 1st level and with all of their memory gone. Same person, though; the potential plot hooks with old foes they couldn't remember were a whole lot of fun for us.


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## Tilenas (May 20, 2009)

Yey, just what we need: more divine classes! And races already presented in the MM! And what's that I hear, Martial Power 2? Is this ever going to stop?
...
Sorry to be ants at the picnic here, but this whole schtick of serialized volumes (PH 1,2,3,n) really bothers me. It seems to me that Wizards is trying to lure unsuspecting customers into believing that PH3 is a core rulebook and not a splatbook. 
How about another campaign setting or two in lieu of all these character options? This would surely slow down the power creep. Or lets have some more original and exciting monsters!


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## Zaukrie (May 20, 2009)

There is a Maened writeup in Kobold Quarterly....

Great cover. I'd like two flavors of psioncis, one all crystally and new-agey, and one all power from yourself like (or maybe a collective memory/soul thingy).


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## Piratecat (May 20, 2009)

Tilenas, I would _much_ have a full racial writeup on established D&D races than new, difficult-to-integrate races. 

Luckily, your wish for original and exciting monsters should be satisfied by MM2.


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## Hjorimir (May 20, 2009)

Michael Komarck is the man (my favorite fantasy artist right now...even over Lockwood and way, way over Reynolds). I remember when they released the mockups of the first 4e core books and sitting their wishing they'd gone with Komarck instead. Well, better late than never.


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## Plane Sailing (May 20, 2009)

As the player of a Gith character, the sooner Gith have a full PHB write up and associated feats the better (although whether I'll survive for another year is a moot point!)

I also love monks, and I'd be happy to restart one of my old chop-socky campaigns where every class is a hybrid-monk class.

So PHB3 looks like being something I'm going to want to get (even though there are lots of reasons why I don't want to be sucked into the PHB-n thing...)

Cheers


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## Fifth Element (May 20, 2009)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> If those weren't actual mythical beasts that were normally depicted as female, and often with exposed breasts (including in previous editions), thus granting the artists the creative license, not to mention artistic significance, you'd have a point. Notice how no one's pointing out the gazongas on the 4e succubus...same thing for those guys.



So you're saying there's a mythological precedent to putting boobs on everything? Actually, I think you're right!

So it's okay to put boob on things. Otherwise, you're saying "If you just made that up, you can't put boobs on it. If some guy a thousand years ago made it up, it's okay to put boobs on it."


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## Brown Jenkin (May 20, 2009)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> > I couldn't help myself because I agree with the sentiment behind the joke: you take a clerk and send him off to fight monsters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There is precedent for butt-kicking librarians though. Take for example.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHsqslpgRSw]YouTube - The Librarian 2 trailer[/ame]


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## lutecius (May 20, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Look at the first illustration in the MM1. It's by Komarck and features a tiefling (alongside other PCs) staring down at a horde of monsters, from skeletons to a red dragon.



Thanks. I didn't realize it was by him. Well it's a bit dark and not as good as I expected. The tiefling has the huge horns, chin spikes and cheesy hairstyle. At least the tail isn't showing. Maybe the design is just unredeemably bad.



EnglishScribe said:


> The power list is almost certainly a placeholder due to the ordering of the powers.  PHB 1 & 2 have the power list in alphabetical order



Could be. Now that i think of it, the layout is a bit off. I'm not sure why wotc would want fans to believe the book is meh, but they've made worse moves.


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## Klaus (May 21, 2009)

lutecius said:


> Maybe the design is just unredeemably bad.




I wouldn't say that:
[sblock]






[/sblock]

IMHO, the best artist to depict tieflings so far is Raven Mimura, in PHB1 (female tiefling eavesdropping on gnolls in the skill chapter and female tiefling with Tenser's Floating Disk in the rituals chapter).


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## I'm A Banana (May 21, 2009)

> So you're saying there's a mythological precedent to putting boobs on everything? Actually, I think you're right!
> 
> So it's okay to put boob on things. Otherwise, you're saying "If you just made that up, you can't put boobs on it. If some guy a thousand years ago made it up, it's okay to put boobs on it."




Dragonborn are not part of the ancient Greek tradition of women-monsters or the Medieval tradition of magic-women, or are in any other way overtly feminized. This is part of the reason that dragonbewbs are silly.

Back on track:


			
				Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> The next setting is supposed to have a far realms influence. None of the obvious candidates have a clear Far-Realms thing going on. So what is it?
> 
> I think it is Dark Sun. Dark Sun rebooted. Dark sun where far realms invasions are behind it all and there is enough wilderness remaining that Primal characters have a lot to do.




I'd be horrified if they changed DS like that.

Fortunately, I think this is more related to Eberron. Eberron already has a strong "primal vs. far realm" conflict going on within it.

I can't think of a classic setting with a strong Far Realm influence offhand, probably because the Far Realm was a late addition to 2e, so any inclusion would have to be very careful or wind up being really horrible. A little bit of that place goes a long way, usually.

A new setting could have some cool Far Realms stuff in it, potentially, but, again, it's easy to overdo it. 

The Minotaur is suggestive of Dragonlance, since aside from that setting and WoW, minotaurs aren't really present as a fantasy race.


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## lutecius (May 21, 2009)

Klaus said:


> I wouldn't say that:
> [sblock]
> 
> 
> ...



Nice. The tail is still a bit too large for my taste. But aren't female tieflings supposed to have curled horns?



> IMHO, the best artist to depict tieflings so far is Raven Mimura, in PHB1 (female tiefling eavesdropping on gnolls in the skill chapter and female tiefling with Tenser's Floating Disk in the rituals chapter).



Mimura's tieflings look better than O'Connor's but they too have the fugly brow-horns (even if they're less prominent on the pic you mentioned)

What can I say, I'm that picky


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## Klaus (May 21, 2009)

lutecius said:


> Nice. The tail is still a bit too large for my taste. But aren't female tieflings supposed to have curled horns?
> 
> Mimura's tieflings look better than O'Connor's but they too have the fugly brow-horns (even if they're less prominent on the pic you mentioned)
> 
> What can I say, I'm that picky



Curled/straight horns aren't, AFAIK, gender-specific.


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## The_Fan (May 21, 2009)

I think the reason for putting Psionics first, out of alphabetical order, is because it's shiny. Psionics is the new thing in PHB3, so putting it first makes sense.

Baseless speculation tells me that we will probably see the Archivist and Templar classes for Divine (a different sort of controller and defender respectively), and the Totemist and Witch for Primal.


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## Riley (May 21, 2009)

Charwoman Gene said:


> What campaign setting?




Minotaurs = Ptolus.


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## Charwoman Gene (May 21, 2009)

FWIW, I would be very upset if I am right.

Anyone notice we're getting a big chunk of PH3 (psionics) on the DDI  just as Eberron releases?


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## CelticMutt (May 24, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> However, Dark Sun, for the love of all that's polyhedral  do Not DARE add in all the new 4th ed races etc etc, or they'd make it a joke.
> Tough luck, githzerai/yanki, drow, dragoborn etc do NOT fit into Dark Sun, the beauty of Dark Sun is that it is *not like most D&D settings*.
> Keep it that way or they'd ruin it.
> 
> Humans, mul, Athasian half-elves, halflings, elves and dwarves, half-giants and thri-kreen are thr proper PC races for Dark Sun. Live with it.



Except that dragonborn (dray) and githyanki/zerai (gith) already existed in Dark Sun.  It wouldn't be a stretch to add in the others.


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## Nikosandros (May 24, 2009)

EnglishScribe said:


> The power list is almost certainly a placeholder due to the ordering of the powers.  PHB 1 & 2 have the power list in alphabetical order:
> 
> Arcane, Divine & Martial
> 
> ...




Actually, even though the PHB2 cover shown on WotC site lists the sources in alphabetical order, my physical copy of the manual lists primal first.


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## mhacdebhandia (May 24, 2009)

Psionics and the primal vs. Far Realm conflict both fit extremely well with Eberron, but one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that minotaurs do too. The nation of Droaam - seemingly a personal favourite of creator Keith Baker, given that his latest novel _Queen of Stone_ is set there - is a "nation of monsters", a homeland ruled by three hag sisters as a commonwealth of monster clans and tribes - including minotaurs. Keith also wrote the "Playing Gnolls" article in _Dragon_, which fits in very well with Droaam.


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