# Tharizdun? (now also a discussion of Castle Greyhawk)



## johnsemlak

Could someone tell me what modules/accesories have info about Tharizdun (besides WG4)?


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## Crothian

I think S4 does and the original temple of elemental evil.  I'm not sure though, it's been a while since I've looked through those.


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## Mr Fidgit

just flipping through the original ToEE, the only reference to Tharizdun i found was in a deities and demigods appendix in the back of the book. like Crothian, its been a LONG time since i've read the whole thing...


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## Terraism

You probably already know this, but Dungeon #87 had an adventure revolving around the nutsy god, and, of course, I believe he's referenced quite a bit in the RttToEE.  Don't know about the older stuff, though - I missed out on first edition by about, oh, fifteen years?


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## johnsemlak

Terraism said:
			
		

> *You probably already know this, but Dungeon #87 had an adventure revolving around the nutsy god, and, of course, I believe he's referenced quite a bit in the RttToEE.  Don't know about the older stuff, though - I missed out on first edition by about, oh, fifteen years?   *




I didn't know about Dungeon #87 (in my earlier roleplaying days I relied on Polyhedron).  Is there a way to get ahold of that adventure?


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## Deedlit

LGG


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## Dr_Rictus

DRAGON #294 (April 2002) includes a _Dieties & Demigods_-style writeup of Tharizdun, plus the domain spells and abilities of his priesthood.  This uses a slight variant on the domain ability presented elsewhere (such as in RttToEE and D&Dg) of the Madness domain.


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## ColonelHardisson

There isn't any info about Tharizdun in S4. There is a reference to an Elder Elemental god in Monster Mythology, which could be related to Tharizdun (I'm not sure, though; I'm probably wrong about the correlation between the two).


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## Ulrick

Here are some references that dead with Tharizdun/Elder Elemental Eye/Dark God.  I don't claim this list to be complete

1st Edition:
1. Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun
2. Against the Giants/Decent into the Depths of the Earth/Vault of the Drow.
3. World of Greyhawk Boxed Set.
4. The Temple of Elemental Evil
5. Manual of the Planes?

2nd Edition:
1. Greyhawk: From the Ashes Boxed Set
2. Monster Mythology
3. The Scarlet Brotherhood
4. On Hallowed Ground (planescape)
5. The Night Below

3rd Edition:
1. Living Greyhawk Gazeteer
2. Dungeon #87 "Cradle of Madness" Adventure
3. Dragon #294
4. Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil
5. Dungeon #85
6. Dragon Magazine Annual #5

There's also been a few articles written about Tharizdun
1. http://www.greyhawk-codex.com/codex/greyhawk/religion/tharizdunq.htm

2. http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/inner.html

3. "Tharizdun"
by David Ross, 17 September 1999 - 16 June 2001
(Unfortunately I can't remember the web address to this)

I hope this helps.

Ulrick


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## johnsemlak

Wow, 

Thanks

I did a google search and found the article about Tharizdun  by David Ross.


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## Gumby

I wasn't the original poster, but this information helps with a future campaign I might be doing.  Thanks.


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## Crothian

Ya, thanks for posting all of that, it'll help.


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## Kesh

Tharzidun is first mentioned in 3e in _Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil_, where it is revealed that he was the true force behind the temple in the first place. This is also where the Madness cleric domain is from, and where they based the writeup in Dragon Magzine from.


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## Ulrick

You're Welcome,

The reason why I know about all that stuff that mentions the "Dark God" is because I'm running a Greyhawk Campaign he plays a major role.

The PCs are almost required to search for the clues and mysteries surrounding "He-Who-Shall-Remain-Nameless."

And it amazes me that sources of information on this diety of Darkness, Insanity, and the Black Sun, seems varied according to the author's interpretation.  Information in _real life_ about "He-who-is-imprisoned" is as apocryphal as it is in the game itself.  It's kinda strange that it took _years_ to gather all those sources.

Oh yeah, and if you mention his name, he'll send minions after you...



Ulrick


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## johnsemlak

ok, another Tharizdun question--

In WG4, is it possible for the PCs to release Tharizdun from the cyst;  I've read references to that possibility, but I've searched through the original module and can find no definite reference that he's even in there?


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## grodog

Below is a fairly definitive listing of references to Tharizdun, compiled by Jason Zavoda of the GreyTalk email list (for details on the list see http://www.canonfire.com/html/modul...cat=2&categories=The+GreyTalk+Mailing+List<p> and browse the archives at http://www.greycitadel.com/greycitadel/greytalk.nsf).

Onto the listing:



> Tharizdun {Master of Malevolence}[Deity]
> AOE Pg# - 27,28,47,49-51,58,84,94,95,97,98,185,188
> CED Pg# - 10,11,43,45,63,66,68,69,70,76,79,111,112,161,170
> 192,199,215,219,220,221,237,240,241,245,246,248
> 254,296,299,300,301,302,303,307,320,321,324,325
> 327,341,353,356,357,361,370,372,374,376,377,379
> COH Pg# - 29,31,34,36,57,359,361,396
> DOD Pg# - 11,12,17,19,37,40,48,49,74,76,77,91,103,119,141,142,150
> 168,196,208,220,221,224,230,241,252,260,268,271,272,273
> 274,279,281,282,287,288,289,290,291,292,293,294,295,296
> 298,299,300,301,302,303,304,305,306,307,308,309,310,311
> 312,313,314,315,316,317,318,319,321,322,323,324,325,326
> 327,336,337,338,340,341,342,343,344,345,346,347,348,349
> 351,352,353,355,356,357,358,359,360,361,364,365,366,367
> 369,370,371,372,373,374,376,377,378,379,382,383,385,386
> 388,390,391,392,393,394,395,396,398,399,400,401,402,403
> 404,405,406,407,408,409,410,413,414,415,416,417,419,420
> 425,426
> DRG#191 Pg# - 67
> DRG#206 Pg# - 44
> DRG#241 Pg# - 95
> DUN#41 Pg# - 47,51,53,57
> FTAA Pg# - 35,91,92,96
> FTAC Pg# - 49
> FTAR#4
> IVID
> LGG Pg# - 96,98,100,129,180,184,185
> LGJ#0 Pg# - 5
> LGJ#3 Pg# - 17
> PGTG Pg# - 5,18,19,21,27
> POLY#128 Pg# - 28
> RT1-4 Pg# - 2,4,5,6,7,9,10,12,18,19,27,28,32,38,39,40,42,43,44,45
> 46,48,52,53,62,70,75,78,79,80,81,83,85,89,94,98,101,105
> 106,110,111,113,114,115,116,118,120,125,127,130,131,132
> 133,137,143,144,145,146,147,149,151,153,154,156,161,162
> 163,165,176,181,182,183,184,185,186,187,190
> SLV Pg# - 10,123
> SOD Pg# - 67,134,388
> T1-4 Pg# - 120
> TSB Pg# - 13,24,33,86
> WG5 Pg# - 16
> WGR3 Pg# - 16,22
> WGR5 Pg# - 5,6
> WOGA Pg# - 63
> 
> Tharizdun, Cult of [ORG]
> RT1-4 Pg# - 6,9,32,38,39,53,101,106,143,145,146,161,163
> 
> Tharizdun, Purple Robes of [ITM]
> RT1-4 Pg# - 111,114,118,133,154,187
> 
> Tharizdun, Temple of (Temple of All-Consumption)[TMP]
> RT1-4 Pg# - 7,9,10,18,20,32,33,37,38,40,41,42,74,78,89,92,94,107
> 137,145,162,189
> 
> Tharizdun, Wailer for (Horn)[ITM]
> WG4 Pg# - 15




And here's the key to the abbreviations:



> Encyclopedia Greyhawkania Index
> A1 Slave Pits of the Undercity (A1)
> A1-4 Scourge of the Slavelords (A1-4)
> A2 Secret of the Slavers Stockade (A2)
> A3 Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords (A3)
> A4 In The Dungeons of the Slave Lords (A4)
> The Adventure Begins (TAB)
> The Adventure Begins: Adventure Maps (TAB:AM)
> Against The Giants - The Liberation of Geoff - Adventure (ATG)
> Artifact of Evil (AOE)
> Bigbys Curse (BC)
> C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (C1)
> C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness (C2)
> Castles: Hart (HART)
> City of Greyhawk: Adventure Cards (COG:C#)
> City of Greyhawk: Folks, Feuds and Factions (COG:FFF)
> City of Greyhawk: Gem of the Flanaess (COG:GOTF)
> City of Hawks (COH)
> Come Endless Darkness (CED)
> The Crypt of Lyzandred the Mad (COLTM)
> D1 Descent into the Depths of the Earth (D1)
> D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa (D2)
> D3 Vault of the Drow (D3)
> D1-2 Descent into the Depths of the Earth (D1-2)
> Dance of Demons (DOD)
> The Doomgrinder (TD)
> Dragon Magazine (DRG#)(1,2,3,5,6,7,9,19,37,43,52,55,56,57,59
> ,63,64,65,67,68,69,70,71,82,86,87,88,89,90,92,93,100
> ,131,139,164,167,171,173,178,185,188,189,191,194,195
> ,196,200,204,206,208,209,210,211,212,219,225,230,233
> ,236,238,241,242,243,245,246,249,253,256,258,262,263
> ,264,265,268,269,270,271,274,276,277,278,
> 284,285,287,288,290,291,292,AN1)
> Dungeon Magazine (DUN#)(6,13,19,30,32,41,42,53,70,71,73,77)
> Dungeon Masters Guide 1st Edition (DMG1)
> Eldritch Wizardry (EW)
> The Fright At Tristor (FAT)
> From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess (FTAA)
> From the Ashes: Campaign Book (FTAC)
> From the Ashes: References Card (FTAR#)(1-14)
> G123 Against the Giants (G123)
> GDQ1-7 Queen of the Spiders (GDQ)
> Ghost Tower of Inverness (GTOI)
> Greyhawk Adventures (GA)
> Greyhawk Wars: Rule Book (GW:RB)
> Greyhawk Wars: Adventures (GW:ADV)
> I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City (I1)
> I7 Baltrons Beacon (I7)
> I9 Day of Al'Akbar (I9)
> IQ3 Warriors of the Gray Queen (IQ3)
> Ivid the Undying (IVID)
> L1 The Secret of Bone Hill (L1)
> L2 The Assassins Knot (L2)
> L3 Deep Dwarven Delve (L3)
> Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (LGG)
> Living Greyhawk Journal (LGJ#)(0,1,2,3,4)
> Lost Tomaochan: The Hidden Shrine of Lubaatum (LT)
> Monster Manual (MMI)
> Monster Manual II (MMII)
> N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God (N1)
> Night Arrant (NA)
> Players Guide to Greyhawk (PGTG)
> Polyhedron Magazine (POLY#)(92,101,128,129)
> The Return of the Eight (ROT8)
> Return to the Keep on the Borderland (RKB)
> Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil (RT1-4)
> Return to the Tomb of Horrors (RTOH)
> Return to White Plume Mountain (RWPM)
> Rogues Gallery (ROG)
> S1 Tomb of Horrors (S1)
> S2 White Plume Mountain (S2)
> S3 Expedition To The Barrier Peaks (S3)
> S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth Book One (S4B1)
> S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth Book Two (S4B2)
> Saga of Old City (SOOC)
> Sagard the Barbarian #1 The Ice Dragon (SAG1)
> The Scarlet Brotherhood (TSB)
> Sea of Death (SOD)
> Shattered Circle (SC)
> Siege of the Citadel (SOTT)
> Slavers (SLV)
> The Star Cairns (TSC)
> T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil (T1-4)
> TSR Jam 1999 (JAM)
> U1 The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh (U1)
> U2 Danger at Dunwater (U2)
> U3 The Final Enemy (U3)
> UK1 Beyond the Crystal Cave (UK1)
> UK2 Sentinel (UK2)
> UK3 Gauntlet (UK3)
> Unearthed Arcan (UA)
> Vecna Reborn (VR)
> WG4 The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (WG4)
> WG5 Mordenkainens Fantastic Adventure (WG5)
> WG6 Isle of the Ape (WG6)
> WG8 Fate of Istus (WG8)
> WG10 Childs Play (WG10)
> WG11 Puppets (WG11)
> WG12 Vale of the Mage (WG12)
> WGA1 Falcons Revenge (WGA1)
> WGA2 Falconmaster (WGA2)
> WGA3 Flames of the Falcon (WGA3)
> WGA4 Vecna Lives! (WGA4)
> WGM1 Borderwatch (WGM1)
> WGQ1 Patriots of Ulek (WGQ1)
> WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins (WGR1)
> WGR2 Treasures of Greyhawk (WGR2)
> WGR3 Rary the Traitor (WGR3)
> WGR4 The Marklands (WGR4)
> WGR5 Iuz the Evil (WGR5)
> WGR6 City of Skulls (WGR6)
> WGS1 The Five Shall Be One (WGS1)
> WGS2 Howl From the North (WGS2)
> World of Greyhawk Boxed Set: A guide to (WOGA)
> World of Greyhawk Boxed Set: Glossography (WOGG)
> 
> Abbreviations
> BC = Back Cover
> FC = Front Cover
> HO = Hand Out
> IBC = Inside Back Cover
> IC = Inside Front Cover
> IN = Insert
> 
> [ADV] = Module/Supplement
> [BK] = Book
> [BTL] = Battle/War
> [BRG] = Bridges
> [CAL] = Date/Event/Time
> [CAP] = Capitol
> [CLN] = Clan/Family/Tribe
> [COIN] = Coinage
> [CTL] = Castle/Fort/Camp
> [GLD] = Guild/League/Union
> [GTE] = Gates
> [ILE] = Islands
> [INN] = Inn/Tavern/Bar/Restaurant
> [ITM] = Item/Spell
> [KNG] = Country/Kingdom/Province
> [LIB] = Library
> [LNG] = Language
> [MNE] = Mine
> [MON] = Monster
> [MT] = Mountain/Hill
> [ORG] = Organization/Society
> [PHL] = Philosophy/Belief
> [PLC] = Place
> [PLN] = Plane/Dimension
> [PPL] = People/Organization/Position
> [PRV] = Province
> [QTR] = City Quarter/Districts/Buildings/Offices
> [RVR] = River/Lake/Stream
> [SCL] = College/School
> [SHP] = Shop
> [STR] = Street/Road/Path
> [TMP] = Temple/Church/Shrine
> [TRT] = Treaty
> [TWN] =	City/Town/Village
> [WD] = Woods/Forest/Jungle




Enjoy!


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## grodog

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> *ok, another Tharizdun question--
> 
> In WG4, is it possible for the PCs to release Tharizdun from the cyst;  I've read references to that possibility, but I've searched through the original module and can find no definite reference that he's even in there? *




There's a lot of info about Tharizdun's release in Gygax's Gord the Rogue books, which are due to be reissued sometime in 2003.  The captured essence of Tharizdun in WG4 is probably an avatar of Tharizdun, as revealed by Paul Stromberg's excellent article in Oerth Journal 12 at http://www.canonfire.com/html/BIN/OJ_12.pdf


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## teitan

grodog said:
			
		

> *
> 
> There's a lot of info about Tharizdun's release in Gygax's Gord the Rogue books, which are due to be reissued sometime in 2003.  The captured essence of Tharizdun in WG4 is probably an avatar of Tharizdun, as revealed by Paul Stromberg's excellent article in Oerth Journal 12 at http://www.canonfire.com/html/BIN/OJ_12.pdf *




WHOAH!!! When and who is releasing them? Will the apocryphal GOrd books be brought into canon?


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## Rhialto

I'd say that's damn unlikely, seeing as Gygax sort of you know _destroys Greyhawk in them!_ 


It's kinda hard to work around something like that...


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## grodog

We'll have to query EGG on it for specifics, but he has stated many times that he has another Gord novel in the works, and that it---along with reissues of the existing Gord novels---will be done in a graphic novel format.


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## Ulrick

Rhialto said:
			
		

> *I'd say that's damn unlikely, seeing as Gygax sort of you know destroys Greyhawk in them!
> 
> 
> It's kinda hard to work around something like that... *




Love is nothing but biochemical reactions similar to that which happens after eating chocolate!!!

Just ruin it for everybody who haven't read all the books.  Grrr...

Ulrick


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## grodog

Ulrick---

I wouldn't worry too much about it:  obviously the "destruction" of the world wasn't the final word, since Gary's doing another novel....


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## Col_Pladoh

Someone called my attention to this thread via email

A couple of years back I contacted the WotC book people and suggested a reprint of all seven of the Gord the Rogue books, that being followed by an eighth novel in which the WoG is restored--of course I left that possibility open in the series, what with multiple universes and parrallel worlds, Oerths.

There was no response, so that ended the possibility of a further Gord yarn set on/dealing with the World of Greyhawk...

We are working with another publisher to create a series of graphic novels from the Gord series, full color works taken exactly from the books. No "official" word at this point. We had hoped to make such an announcement earlier, but delays in lining up cover art and cmpleting the interior illustrations combined to put it off until the end of this year, or perhaps later. It is in progress, though.

If the graphic novels do as well as expected, some new material will be done expanding the existing story material, and perhaps even extend the whole saga, but that's speculative. In similar vein, we will likely see about republishing the novels in hardbound editions if the graphic ones are successful.

That's the "skinny" to date 

Gary


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## grodog

Sounds good Gary, thanks for the update


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## Col_Pladoh

With the Gord the Rogue material pretty well on track, the next hurdle is putting together a means of publishing the castle and dungeons used in my Greyhawk Campaign. Rob is on board, but the format for the material is a poser. To do the whole thing will take a couple of years. so the only financially reasonable means for us is to do it in parts--each a complete adventure but also connecting to the other modules.  Seems publishers don't much like that idea.

Life is never simple  

Gary


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## grodog

I can't believe that there isn't a credible d20 publisher out there who wouldn't jump at this chance.  What's the world coming to? :-/


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## Ulrick

grodog said:
			
		

> *I can't believe that there isn't a credible d20 publisher out there who wouldn't jump at this chance.  What's the world coming to? :-/ *





The problem probably would sorting out the "credible" from the "uncredible."

A lot of uncredible publisher would love to get a hold of Mr. Gygax's works, and then unintentionally mess things up.

IHMO, go with Necromancer Games...

The Dungeon Master


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## johnsemlak

I second Necromancer Games for this project.  They already published a mega-dungeon as three separate connected modules.

One thing, to republish this Castle/dungeon Greyhawk, would the Greyhawk name have to be used, our could it be done a la the Maze of Zayene series, where the names are changed but it's essentially the same as the old Greyhawk adventures?  (Ivid = Ovar or whatever, I haven't bought teh Maze modules yet)   

Personally, I would like to see NG become the/an official publisher of WoG, like Sovereign Stone with the Dragonlance setting


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## Col_Pladoh

*Oroblems with Original Castle Greyhawk*

Before blaming publishers, consider the following:

First, Rob agrees with me that the best way to recreate a version of the material in question for general use is to have the base as close as possible to the original rules system. That means OA/D&D, of course. Thus the logical publisher is certainly Kenzer.

Second, there is absolutely no way that Rob and I can spend two years' time designing and writing the material for s single-shot product which, incidently, would NOT fit in a single book, likely needs several and should accommodate "side" adventure modules.

Third, to undertake the project we need advances against royalties that will justify the amount of time and effort we need to expend to create the work. Of course, that means the project must be created and published in stages, or else some very flush publisher that can fork over a fair amount of money and wait two years to see the ms. in final form. Considering this field, the latter is not a very likely prospect.

The upshot is that Rob and I ame examining options and considering how we might proceed. In addition to the castle (maps and encounters above ground, shall we say) there needs to be a narby community, and then come all the many dungeon levels and their encounters. From the latter should also spring one or more "side adventure modules," virtual stand-alone ones like DUNGEONLAND and ISLE OF THE APE, such places being a part of the magical transportation arising from PCs getting into special areas of some dungeon level and being sent off to another place entirely.

This is a very massive project, and it might turn out it is just too difficult to manage.

Asof now, though, Rob and I are approaching it in positive manner, and it will be some weeks before any real decision can be made.

Cheers,
Gary


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## grodog

Do please keep us all as informed as possible Gary.  There are many OD&D/GH fans out there in the world who have been salivating at the chance to see this dungeon published since before T1 saw print


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## NeghVar

*Re: Oroblems with Original Castle Greyhawk*



			
				Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> *Before blaming publishers, consider the following:
> 
> First, Rob agrees with me that the best way to recreate a version of the material in question for general use is to have the base as close as possible to the original rules system. That means OA/D&D, of course. Thus the logical publisher is certainly Kenzer.
> *




Gary,

I recommend you approach Scott Greene from Necromancer Games, and see if he would do D20 conversions of said material. Frankly, if you "dual-stat" Castle Greyhawk...you will not only please the "purist" crowd, as well as, D20 crowd (that seems to have deep purses).

Just a thought...


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## Col_Pladoh

Rob and I are agreed that presenting the castle-dungeons (and environs) material in a form as close as possible to the original will best conver the spirit and "soul" of the work. Unfortunately, we are precluded from doing the work in OAD&D terms.

This leaves us the following possibilities, singly or in some combination:

Generic fantasy system

HackMaster

D20

There is also theproblem of priducing the material. It is extensive and will likely require about four man-years, two years of Rob and I working on it, to cmplete the entire thing. Neither of us can afford to work for two years time thus without a publishing agreement and advances against each part of the work--let us say it will come to eight products for sake of this exposition. Imagine working without pay for two yars, then submitting the work to a publisher--who might turn it down--and finally getting payments beginning about three or more years after you began the project! That's fine for the independently wealthy, but...

By breaking it up into managable portions, each a complete product in itself but with links to others so as to be used as a portion of a greater whole, we have clear objectives to meet, advances against royalties, and royalty income coming in before the whole work is completed.

So far we haven't decided how best to manage the system base used to write the rules, not has an eager publisher stepped up to assure us that funding will be there for us.

Frankly, if it were possible to do this an an OAD&D priduct I'l likely bash ahead without a deal lined up, and I think Rob would too. We are both certain of the potential demand from OAD&D fans and the HM enthusiasts too. As I noted initially, it ain't gonna fly that way.

We also have a problem in regards to prduct identification. We can't call the work what it really is, and what existed before the TSR trade marked name, Castle Greyhawk 

As it stands, I am not about to rush ahead with anything. After all this time a few weeks or months won't matter at all...

Cheerio,
Gary


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## grodog

Well, keep us all in the loop, as events develop futher.  Some of us have been waiting a long time for the Castle to be published, and would love to see product announcements from *The Dragon* come true


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## Col_Pladoh

Grodog,

We are hashing this over trying to arrive at a system to use that will reflect the spirit and play of the original work.  There are various threads on the matter at Dragonsfoot, Kenzer, and the PPP boards.

As it stands, I believe it will be some weeks before we reach a decision as to going forward, and if so, with what system.

Cheers,
Gary


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## Arnwyn

Just out of curiosity, why is there so much work involved? Haven't you been gaming in it since the '70's?

(Pure curiosity on my part - I've always been intrigued about this mysterious and mythical "Castle Greyhawk" and how big it *really* is...)


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## Col_Pladoh

arnwyn said:
			
		

> *Just out of curiosity, why is there so much work involved? Haven't you been gaming in it since the '70's?
> 
> (Pure curiosity on my part - I've always been intrigued about this mysterious and mythical "Castle Greyhawk" and how big it *really* is...) *




Heh, and maybe you are different, but my typical notes for a full dungeon level with 25 areas noted for encounter or some sepcial thing (trick, trap, whatever) take up one side of one page of fine-lined paper, one line per encounter.

Much of all was simply remembered, made up on the spot, or noted on the various maps with cryptic symbols or shorthand.  rob and I managed it just fine.  Almost any other DM would be quite at a loss.

Furthermore, there were two versions of the castle and dungeons.  My original one had upper ruins, 13 levels down, and several side levels.  When Rob joined me as co-DM, we not only merged his levels into the original, but the castle works were expanded, a whole new, large first level was done, and yet more new levels were added.  That more than doubles the size of the material we used.

To recreate a work that is drawn from both versions, is managable in size (version two is not!), and usable by all DMs. we need to draw from the best of the lot, restructure from that, and then go over everything to make sure we include all the special features.  Hooking all that up, detailing encounters, is simply a massive undertaking.

Cheers,
Gary


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## zealot73

There was an adventure featuring Tharizdun in a Dungeon Magazine last year.  I can't remember the name of it but on the cover it referenced it by quote "Help!  I'm Having Tharizdun's Love Child!".  It was great!  Complete with new spells for his Clerics and a new type of Undead.


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## Flexor the Mighty!

1. Tharizdun != Elder Elemental God/Eye

2. Tharizdun is a Greater God as well.    Another post Gygax Greyhawk gaffe.  I don't think the god listed in the issue of Dragon would require a coalition of every other god to imprison him.  Maybe they did it on purpose for reasons I can't fathom?

Oh well it's easy enough to change.


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## herald

Ialways imagined the current write up to reflect that his Lesser god status. Ergo, should those restrictions should be removed, ...Katie bar the door.


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## Col_Pladoh

The way Tharizdun was originally conceived and presented, he was so bad that all other Evil preferred he be kept locked up, but when it appeared that he was free and able, those of scheeming. planning sort fell into place behind him.

The Elder Elemental God was once nearly as potent as Bit T was portrayed in the "Gord the Rogue books, but being isolated and imprisoned weakened his power. Even if loosed, the EEG would be no more potent than any other of the major deities--at first, anyway.  The CE folks would likely help in restoring the EEG to such extent as they umnagined it would benefit their own power 

Cheers,
Gary


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## MerricB

The Lesser God status for Tharizdun in 3E is how powerful is even imprisoned! If he was released, Divine Rank 21+ is how I'd view him. Ouch.

There has been some reconceptualising of Tharizdun post-Gygax, and he has been merged with the Elder Elemental God. Personally, I view Tharizdun as the font of all evil, with all evil forces gaining their powers from him... and he possibly manipulating them unconsciously...

But that's non-canon. 

Basically, find the view that fits you and alter the published material to fit your pet theory.

He's so evil that he's impossible to conceptualise fully, after all...

Cheers!


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## Col_Pladoh

Don't matter how they cut it, Merric.  Thrizdun ain't elemental, and the Elder Elemental God ain't anywhere as Evil as Bit T.  It's like mixing Law and Chaos, in a way...

Cheers,
Gary


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## MerricB

Oh, I don't know, Gary... if Tharizdun is really, really evil, and subsumes all lesser forms of evil, why not Elemental Evil as well? 

No doubt however - the original conception of Tharizdun is extremely different than that of the Elder Elemental God.

Cheers!


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## Col_Pladoh

MerricB said:
			
		

> *Oh, I don't know, Gary... if Tharizdun is really, really evil, and subsumes all lesser forms of evil, why not Elemental Evil as well?
> 
> No doubt however - the original conception of Tharizdun is extremely different than that of the Elder Elemental God.
> 
> Cheers! *




Well, Old Top, seeing as how Tharizdun can *consume* other evil beings but can't really become them, I'd say that his absorbing the role of the Elder Elemental god is about as likely as the demon lords of the Abyss bowing to him.

I reiterate, no way!


Gary


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## grodog

LOL!

So Gary, what's the likelihood that you and Rob will publish scans/copies of the original materials formerly-known-as Castle Greyhawk, either the original or the expanded version (as CDs, .pdfs, etc.)?  (And yes, I'm talking about the maps with the 1 page sheet of notes per level)?


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## qstor

As an aside I believe its easy to use the EEG in a 3e campaign. The tentacle rods for the clerics were outlined in a Dragon article and the domains for clerics could come from:

Ghaunadaur (CE): That Which Lurks, the Elder Eye.  Symbol: Purplish eye on purple, violet, and black circles.  Worshipers: Aboleths, drow, fighters, oozes, outcasts, ropers.  Cleric Alignment: CE, CN, NE.  Domains: Cavern, Chaos, Drow, Evil, Hatred, Slime.  Favored Weapon: An amorphous tentacle (warhammer). 

Eric Boyd mentioned a slight link in Demihuman Dieties. Of course the EEG from EGG came first 


Just my 2 cents...

Mike


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## Skullfyre

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Heh, and maybe you are different, but my typical notes for a full dungeon level with 25 areas noted for encounter or some sepcial thing (trick, trap, whatever) take up one side of one page of fine-lined paper, one line per encounter.
> 
> Much of all was simply remembered, made up on the spot, or noted on the various maps with cryptic symbols or shorthand.  rob and I managed it just fine.  Almost any other DM would be quite at a loss.
> 
> Furthermore, there were two versions of the castle and dungeons.  My original one had upper ruins, 13 levels down, and several side levels.  When Rob joined me as co-DM, we not only merged his levels into the original, but the castle works were expanded, a whole new, large first level was done, and yet more new levels were added.  That more than doubles the size of the material we used.
> 
> To recreate a work that is drawn from both versions, is managable in size (version two is not!), and usable by all DMs. we need to draw from the best of the lot, restructure from that, and then go over everything to make sure we include all the special features.  Hooking all that up, detailing encounters, is simply a massive undertaking.
> 
> Cheers,
> Gary *




*BOWS* Oh great master of DnD!!

Please take your time...
I can wait... I can go through white plume again or into barrier peaks or there is that keep on the borderlands.......


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## Col_Pladoh

grodog said:
			
		

> *LOL!
> 
> So Gary, what's the likelihood that you and Rob will publish scans/copies of the original materials formerly-known-as Castle Greyhawk, either the original or the expanded version (as CDs, .pdfs, etc.)?  (And yes, I'm talking about the maps with the 1 page sheet of notes per level)? *




Heh, and about the same as the snowball in hell, I should think.  One day my heirs and assigns will likely want to auction that material so as to not starve to death 

Heh,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh

Skullfyre said:
			
		

> *
> 
> *BOWS*
> *




Ah quit! your psot ain't that good.

Oh, sorry, I seemed to have not read far enough 

Seriously, we are still in touch with Kenzer about a HM version--see their boards.  Of course I want to do the work as OAD&D, its proper system, but that ain't too likely.  No foirm decision about format has been made, but that can change soon, or not.

Publishers are not much enthused about doing the project in several parts, but it's that or nothing for certain.

cheers,
Gary


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