# Surviving low-level old school D&D



## Bullgrit (May 27, 2009)

Over the years I’ve read several references and stories about people’s first experiences with early editions of D&D – OD&D, AD&D1, B/XD&D. The thing that surprises me with these tales is that the PCs don’t die. 

My first experiences with BD&D and AD&D had PCs dying all over the place. My very first experience with the game, delving into the module _In Search of the Unknown_, had a character die in the very first area and encounter of the dungeon. My first DMing experiences had several PC deaths in the module _Keep on the Borderland_. The ogre alone easily killed half a dozen 1st-level, beginning PCs. Two PCs died in the pit trap at the beginning of the kobold cave.

It was not uncommon at all (could even be said to be very common) to have PCs with 1-4 hit points (even fighters could roll that with their 1d8 hit points) die from the first goblin or kobold hitting for 1d6 damage. In the first couple years of my playing this game, I don’t think any group completed any dungeon with no deaths at all. Hell, it might have taken 20 PCs to enter (in several 3-6-man forays) for 4 to complete a dungeon.

A couple years after we started playing D&D, my group agreed to always start new PCs at around 3rd level (5,001 xp), because lower-levels were a crap shoot to survive.

Just recently I read a tale of the adventures of a group playing their very first D&D characters in an old-school adventure with the old-school rules, and the PCs ended up gaining a couple or few levels without a single death in the party. These Players were new to the game, with 1st-level PCs, in an environment where they had no base town or backup (no henches) of any kind. Yet they made their way through encounters that were often of equal number and levels.

This kind of thing blows my mind. In my experience, old-school, 1st-level D&D was brutally random. A group of six 1st-level PCs against a group of six goblins could easily end with a couple of PC deaths, possibly even a TPK. In fact, my experiences with the game at that stage makes me think these stories I read where the novice, low-level party succeeds with their first try makes me think either the DM is going *very* easy on them, or the stories are not “accurate.”

What was your experience with old-school low levels? Can you believe a tale of novice PCs surviving on their first adventure (without “help”)?

Bullgrit


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## TheYeti1775 (May 27, 2009)

Quite possible, they probably lived with the adage of "Run Away To Fight Another Day".

No but honestly it is quite possible to have a low mortality rate, just like you had a high one.

My first experiences were of the higher mortality rate, our 4 person group went with the theory of starting out at 1st level, but everyone had 2 or 3 characters.  When we reached the leveling point for 3rd level, you only choose one of the characters, the others were turned into your 'hirelings' to later become your henchmen if you made it to Name Levels.

Also we played more often our mortality rates went down drastically as our tactics got better and more creative.


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## EricNoah (May 27, 2009)

I'm probably a softie - I tailor adventures to suit PC abilities, and I give the low-level PCs lots and lots of ways to succeed and survive.  I've played many editions of D&D and that's just how I roll.


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## Bullgrit (May 27, 2009)

> Quite possible, they probably lived with the adage of "Run Away To Fight Another Day".



I hear/read this idea a lot when talking about old school combats, but at 1st level, it's not really possible.

Our party enters the room. Three goblins throw javelins. One hits my fighter and does 4 points of damage. My PC dies. That's it.

We walk down the hall. Pit trap drops us 10'. My magic-user takes 3 damage. My PC dies. That's it.

We find a treasure chest. If there's a trap, my thief has a 15% chance to find it. Open chest, fail the "DC 17" poison save. My PC dies. That's it.

Bullgrit


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## Cadfan (May 27, 2009)

You have it about right, Bullgrit.  You can't run away to fight another day when any fight, even against the weakest foe available, has a significant chance of involving your character's death after being hit one time.


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## Storminator (May 27, 2009)

we used to say "it's not that your character hasn't died... it's just that he hasn't died _yet._"

We would run 3 or 4 PCs each, and expect half the party to die. Then we'd run another 1st level adventure, half of those PCs would die, and we'd bash the two groups together, go into a 2nd level adventure, and half the PCs would die. 

"My 8th level cleric stands atop the Pyramid of Death!"

PS


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## Philotomy Jurament (May 27, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> What was your experience with old-school low levels? Can you believe a tale of novice PCs surviving on their first adventure (without “help”)?



I find the possibility of no PC deaths with novice players and 1st level characters pretty hard to believe unless the adventure was really easy or the DM was going easy on group (which I don't think is necessarily bad, although I usually prefer a more 'let the dice fall where they may' approach).  I think you're right about the deadliness of low level D&D (i.e. TSR editions).  Even with very experienced players, we've had 1 PC death and a couple of "near misses" with only a handful of sessions in my Cromlech Tor game (and the record on hirelings is bad enough that the PCs have developed a reputation and are having a hard time hiring anyone).


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## Bullgrit (May 27, 2009)

> I give the low-level PCs lots and lots of ways to succeed and survive.



This is kind of vague 

Bullgrit


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## Dyson Logos (May 27, 2009)

The tricks for level 1 are sleep, charm person (if you don't have sleep) and running away. When you can't run away, you are screwed.

I just played a level 1 game last night that ended in a TPK. I can't wait for the sequel.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/story-hour/256617-moldvay-basic-temple-illhan.html


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 27, 2009)

I may be mixing up my editions... 

But it was common practice for me to spend my first 25gp on a guard dog.

I would worry about my own armor and weapons _after _I got that sucker.

Lanchester's Square Law is a harsh mistress, so having an extra 2HD of snarling fury on your side was no small advantage.


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## Treebore (May 27, 2009)

I guess it was because we were in the military, plus I did not start playing with a newbie DM, he had a few years under his belt.

So we didn't start with a few HP's, my first DM is the first to teach me "max HP at first level" and why. Plus he taught me the value of using cover whenever possible, back to back fighting, using your 10 foot pole, use caltrops, let them come to you, and probably a dozen more "tricks of survival" I was taught and have forgotten.

We still had plenty of PC deaths, I just got lucky and wasn't one of them most of the time. I think I have only had PC's die 23 times or so. Most of those were in my wife's games, she had poison frikkin everywhere!


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## rkwoodard (May 27, 2009)

*original 5 minute work day/week*

Ah, fond memories.

4 or 5 characters go into the dungeon or bandit area, fight one very small group of orcs or goblins and then retreat.  Not because the wizard is out of spells, but because 

1) All spell casters have cast their spells
2) The Ranger is down to 2 hit points
3) The fighter is out
4) The thief...well it does not really matter the condition of the thief

Repeat till the entire party is dead, or the DM gets so bored he gives enough XP to level the party so that he can run something a little more fun.

But maybe that is just my experiences

RK


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## Riley (May 27, 2009)

(double post.)


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## Riley (May 27, 2009)

Ways to survive low levels in AD&D 1e:

1) Play a ranger with a high con.  Hard to go wrong with 2d8+6 starting hp.
2) Maximize AC.  An elf with 19 dex and splint mail + shield is a good start.  Upgrade to banded, then field plate ASAP.  Besides, those improved armors will also improve your movement rate to 9" instead of 6", which is good for rule #8.
3) Do both 1 and 2 (after UA was released).
4) Molitov cocktails are invaluable.
5) Guard dogs are invaluable.
6) Longbows are invaluable.
7) Safety in numbers.  If there are eight of you, at least one of you will make that saving throw.
8) Always be ready to run away, and keep a good stockpile of caltrops to slow down your pursuers.


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## Corathon (May 27, 2009)

Some PC deaths are bound to happen at low level (And higher levels, too), but there are ways to minimize the number/frequency of such deaths.

1) Hirelings
If you only have 4 PCs, that's a dangerously small group.  Hirelings (zero-level fighters) should be acquired as soon as possible. For evil or neutral groups, these may be just cannon fodder, but even for good groups, they're a good idea. More attack rolls mean more hits on the enemy.

2) War dogs
A 2+2 HD war dog is probably better than the party's fighters in both attacks and hit points. Having one along can be a big help.

3) Smart tactics
These include basics like mapping, gathering intelligence, use of missiles, forming a defensive line, planning your objectives, and running away from anything that you think is too tough.

4) The "hovering on death's door" rule
The rule that character isn't dead at zero HP was in the first edition DMG as an option. Using it reduces lethality.

5) Giving first level characters at least average HP
This is an optional rule from _Unearthed Arcana_. For example, using this rule a fighter with d10 hit die (average 5.5) will have at least 6 HP at first level. Some people house-ruled maximum HP at 1st level, though I think that's going too far, myself.

6) If the adventure is near (perhaps beneath) a town, fort, or other "home base", many PCs can be saved that would otherwise die. The _slow poison_ and _death's door_ spells can return nominally dead PCs. Of course the NPC clerics that cast such things will want something in return, but that's just a way to dispose of excess loot, or grist for more adventures.


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## Nebten (May 27, 2009)

For almost all my games had characters start with max HPs (along with other's I'm sure). Pretty much it was always a question as to who was going to be the cleric and then flesh out the rest of the party dynamic from there. I think after a couple games we used "Hovering on Death's Door" rule as well, which is the now common -10 = Death rule. This was all AD&D 2nd Ed.


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## EricNoah (May 27, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> This is kind of vague
> 
> Bullgrit




Everything from house rules to toughen up low-level PCs, to adjusting published adventures to include more resources and fewer hazards, to making sure the bad guys weren't too tough, to straight up fudging rolls at the table.  I know there's a "PCs aren't special" school of thought with some DMs; I go the opposite way.


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## Philotomy Jurament (May 27, 2009)

EricNoah said:


> I know there's a "PCs aren't special" school of thought with some DMs; I go the opposite way.



For me, it depends on the game.  Usually (but not always), with D&D, I take the approach of "PCs that survive are special."  A 1st level PC might be special, with a fantastic story and legendary exploits in his future...or his story might be to die from a giant spider bite twenty minutes into his first foray in the dungeon.  (My D&D games are kind of like George R.R. Martin novels, in that respect -- characters might die, but the tale goes on...)


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## Ed_Laprade (May 27, 2009)

Its possible by RAW. *If* the dice are with the party and against the GM. Normally you just get used to having total strangers attaching themselves to your party, with the group who levels up being entirely different from the one that entered the dungeon in the first place!  (Somewhere in one of the dungeons one of our early GM's ran is a fresco of half a dozen of my earliest characters who were killed by spider bites in the first or second encounter of an adventure.   )


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## mach1.9pants (May 27, 2009)

The OP is entirely correct IMO, you cannot play BECMI type DnD with out continual PC/party kills. If you house rule or really fudge the dice, maybe, but otherwise you are stuffed. 
We had a party of every 'class' from BECMI and the highest HP of any PC was 4 (and everyone else had 3 or less) we literally could not fight. So we ran from every encounter but we still all died! 
The DM even made me roll for my Magic User spell..... tensers floating disk and a dagger... oh the mighty Raistlin Majere!


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## Ktulu (May 27, 2009)

I'm surprised no one mentioned the most obvious:

History only remembers the victors.

I can't tell you how many times I've brought up Jans Torsen, the fallen Jedi who saved a galaxy, or the adventures of Tykfal and Banarak in the Wildlands... But I've probably never once mentioned anything about a little wildelf campaign that ended in a TPK after two sessions against some basic orcs.. Nothing special, just bad rolls.

Players will talk at ends about their awesome games, but rarely mentioned the failed campaings that died out after a session or two.


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## S'mon (May 27, 2009)

My first experience, we were using 1e AD&D rules for Keep on the Borderlands, and had no trouble surviving.

For harsher systems like B/X, you need to stack the odds.  I played Labyrinth Lord for a few sessions online recently, straight 3d6 & hp by the book; if anything it's even harsher than B/X because you only start with studded leather, not plate.  The things I did to stack the odds and successfully not die:

1.  War dogs.  Buy trained war dogs.  They fight for you.  They're much tougher than 1st level PCs.

2.  Use missile weapons in support of your war dogs.

3.  Let the other PCs go first...

Other good tactics include using retainers & hirelings to shield your precious PC, and having a Magic-User with Sleep - go in the dungeon; Sleep the first lot of enemies, kill & loot, return to town, rinse & repeat.


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## haakon1 (May 27, 2009)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Quite possible, they probably lived with the adage of "Run Away To Fight Another Day".




Right.  We were very careful and cautious adventurers.  I guess I lost about half my PC's in AD&D, with an average level at death of about 4th level.

One thing that helped is that for the first adventure, there was definitely a town to retreat to and heal up in.

I find "Temple of Elemental Evil", the 3.5e computer game, pretty darn realistic to my experiences with it in AD&D.  As in, when I played it, the frog fight was hard, so I healed up and went back for the next fight -- both in AD&D back in the 1980s and in the game in 2005 or whatever.  When my wife tried it, she got a TPK.  Why?  Because she continued on after the frogs, without resting up.


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## S'mon (May 27, 2009)

mach1.9pants said:


> The OP is entirely correct IMO, you cannot play BECMI type DnD with out continual PC/party kills. If you house rule or really fudge the dice, maybe, but otherwise you are stuffed.
> We had a party of every 'class' from BECMI and the highest HP of any PC was 4 (and everyone else had 3 or less) we literally could not fight. So we ran from every encounter but we still all died!
> The DM even made me roll for my Magic User spell..... tensers floating disk and a dagger... oh the mighty Raistlin Majere!




The LL game I played in recently, my PCs were a Dwarf with 4 hp, no stat bonuses, and a Cleric with 4hp, WIS 14 so he got a 5% XP bonus but nothing else.  There were 5 other adventurers in the group, most of whom died because they weren't smart like my guys.    My Cleric bought 2 War Dogs who he sic'd on all foes (though 1 ran away from a failed morale check).  My dwarf bought a crossbow and heroically provided support fire; until later on he was able to get splint mail and a decent AC, at which point I risked melee a couple of times.

The GM didn't go easy on us either, one fight was with 2 troglodytes - that's 6 d4 attacks a round. Another was with a bunch of skeletons, who I failed to turn.


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## Dyson Logos (May 27, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Our party enters the room. Three goblins throw javelins. One hits my fighter and does 4 points of damage. My PC dies. That's it.




That's what you get for not listening at the door.



> We walk down the hall. Pit trap drops us 10'. My magic-user takes 3 damage. My PC dies. That's it.




That's what you get for not using your 10 foot pole.



> We find a treasure chest. If there's a trap, my thief has a 15% chance to find it. Open chest, fail the "DC 17" poison save. My PC dies. That's it.




Hmm... since treasure is the single greatest way to gain XP, surprise of surprises it's trapped. Smash the chest with a warhammer next time instead of opening it by the bloody handles. You smash the potions inside, but get the treasure.

Don't just play chicken, play smarter.


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## frankthedm (May 27, 2009)

Is the party just the PCs or do they hire a torchbearer with more GP than he makes in a year? Maybe a mercenary or two promised a half share they will never live to receive. Maybe a spear carrier here and there. I doubt [m]any parties would take this to the Zapp Brannigan level of sending wave after wave of NPCs at the monsters until they reached their stomach limit. But if they did, do tell.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/187595-hireling-henchmen-extras-redshirts.html

In previous editions, it seemed common enough that the players brought hirelings, pack animals, torch bearers and other types of extras with them. Some might not go into “the dungeon”, but having NPCs with had some uses. Hackmaster, in a bit of gallows humor even expects the players to have these red shirts with so that when a deadly monster shows up, the players can see they are in over their heads by how fast the NPCs get cleaved trough.


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## Dyson Logos (May 27, 2009)

Ktulu said:


> I'm surprised no one mentioned the most obvious:
> 
> History only remembers the victors.




So true. In the B/X campaign I'm running the two melee characters are several levels behind the rest of the team because they kept having to be replaced regularly during the first four levels of the party's existence. Finally around level 4/5, the non-melee types took up frontline positions for a few sessions to allow the melee folks to level up.


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## haakon1 (May 27, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Our party enters the room. Three goblins throw javelins. One hits my fighter and does 4 points of damage. My PC dies. That's it.




OK.  First, my party would be listening at the door.  If we heard them, we'd try to go in guns blazing and hope for surprise or at least initiative.  If we failed, we retreat to a corner and make them fight around it, or slam the door and spike it closed.  (Of course, we use the same tactics in 3.5e as in AD&D on this stuff.)



Bullgrit said:


> We walk down the hall. Pit trap drops us 10'. My magic-user takes 3 damage. My PC dies. That's it.




The monk or thief was going first, and using 10' pole, everywhere.  Slow, but effective.  The MU is NEVER, EVER, in front or in back.  The approved marching order is: point-man, killer meatshield, secondary meatshield, MU, cleric, tertiary meatshield.  Protect the MU . . . if you can get an MU who survives, the whole party is rocking.  (Again, we go similar marching orders in 3.5e, but we have dispensed with the 10' pole -- why pole when you can just roll?)



Bullgrit said:


> We find a treasure chest. If there's a trap, my thief has a 15% chance to find it. Open chest, fail the "DC 17" poison save. My PC dies. That's it.




Everyone stands outside the room, while the thief smashes the chest with an axe.  If there's a poison gas trap this time, oh well, get a new thief.  (Or, in 3.5e, have another PC start taking Rogue levels.)

BTW, I've always had all PC's start at 1st level, or take over an existing NPC.  We're almost always had more characters than players in a party, so that a player with a dead PC can take over an NPC who's already a party member, and so that's there's enough characters.  More often than note, the DM has also run a PC . . . a normal PC who can (and often will) buy the farm, not the infamous "DMPC of uberpower" that people hear complain about, but I've never actually seen.

And the thing about starting two parties and combined the survivors to get something viable, plus having a large party of about 8 PC's so you can lose a few . . . that's how we survived the G123/Q1 series!

Of my two characters who survived, one was mine from the start, the other was an NPC I took over . . . two other characters (1 mine from the start, 1 NPC takeover) bought the farm.  So, I dunno 25-50% survival rate, depending on how you look at it.  Seems fine to me!


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## Erekose (May 27, 2009)

My recollection is that survival wasn't too much of an issue - may be I was a soft DM  However I remember UK2 - Danger at Dunwater having several TPKs just enroute to the lizardman lair!


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## JRRNeiklot (May 27, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> I hear/read this idea a lot when talking about old school combats, but at 1st level, it's not really possible.
> 
> Our party enters the room. Three goblins throw javelins. One hits my fighter and does 4 points of damage. My PC dies. That's it.
> 
> ...




If that's how you played, there's no wonder you died.

Why just walk in a room full of goblins?  They have to leave sometime, ambush them when they leave.  Sneak by them.  Be creative.
Probe with a 10 foot pole to avoid the pit traps.
Turn the chest away from you, and open it, or better yet, tie a rope to it and open it from 20 feet away.  If it has a padlock that may be trapped, saw through the hasp or hinges, not the lock, there are many, many ways to open a chest besides merely picking the lock and opening it.  If you charge madly into a dungeon, solving every problem with an attack roll, yeah, you're probably gonna die.


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## Bullgrit (May 27, 2009)

...


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## Treebore (May 27, 2009)

Philotomy Jurament said:


> For me, it depends on the game.  Usually (but not always), with D&D, I take the approach of "PCs that survive are special."  A 1st level PC might be special, with a fantastic story and legendary exploits in his future...or his story might be to die from a giant spider bite twenty minutes into his first foray in the dungeon.  (My D&D games are kind of like George R.R. Martin novels, in that respect -- characters might die, but the tale goes on...)




No Kidding! One of my favorite deaths was in 2E, I rolled up a replacement dwarven cleric for a previous character that died, I rolled several real good attributes for him, I remember he had max CON, he had a really high AC, I expected to play this guy for a long time. He died in the first encounter, ripped apart by velociraptors.

My other favorite was actually in a higher level game, and we had the un errata'd reincarnation spell going on in 2E. Every single time that PC ran into a Green Dragon I failed the save and died. Every time, which was 3 times over the time I played that PC. Plus he died several more times versus poisons. All this and he was a mage thief, if anyone should have made thsoe saves, it was him, and I failed EVERY single time I had to save versus the Green Dragon Breath Weapon, and every single time it was save or die poisons. So he got reincarnated a total of 8 times, with no level loss, since we didn't have the "corrected" version of the spell. Plus it was lots of fun adjusting to being a kobold, ogre, even spent time as a thieving bear.


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## Betote (May 27, 2009)

Basic low-level D&D survival tips:

* Never, ever, touch anything. Have someone touch it first.
* Never, ever, enter anywhere. Have someone enter first.
* Never, ever, fight anyone. Have someone fight them firs... instead


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## baradtgnome (May 27, 2009)

Our first outing was Keep on the Borderlands.  Me as DM.  TPK in the first encounter.  

Over the next year, between alternating DMs in a mixture of homebrew and modules, every player lost at least one character... most more.  Yes some were lost to poor play or risky decisions.  Many were lost just due to the odds.  If you fight, eventually you will be hit.  Since 1st level hit points usually ended up being less than the maximum damage that monsters could deal, there was  character death.  

I remember my first favorite character survived an attack from a wolf only because the wolf/DM rolled 1s on a pair of 4 siders for damage.  My elf had 3 hp.  He died several evenings later in the adventure when he fell into a trap with a bunch of spiders.  None of the others jumped in to help him fight them...  mostly due to the fact that it was high risk of death to be there.  So they were 'smart' and stood back with missle weapons.  Which did kill all the spiders - slowly enough for them to thoroughly annihilate the elf.  

Over time we became better players, better DMs and instituted house rules.  I find it hard to believe others didn't have the same experience out of the box.  Of course YMMV, and some gamers could have spent time analyzing the odds and realized earlier what would happen.  We instead opted to roll the dice... and die.


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## Raven Crowking (May 27, 2009)

Weird.  

When I suggested that 3e was easier to survive than older editions, I was told that I misremembered.

Likewise with 4e.



For the record, I think that the OP is correct.  Earlier D&D was harder to succeed in.  Low-level bodies piled up.  Success wasn't guaranteed.  That was part of the game.


RC


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## Bullgrit (May 27, 2009)

Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.

Bullgrit


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 27, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.
> 
> Bullgrit




Now, now, don't take it to heart. Everybody is a badass in D&D. Everybody is a badass over the internet. Compound the two and there's a lot of badasses out there telling you how much badder they are than you.



Betote said:


> Basic low-level D&D survival tips:
> 
> * Never, ever, touch anything. Have someone touch it first.
> * Never, ever, enter anywhere. Have someone enter first.
> * Never, ever, fight anyone. Have someone fight them firs... instead




This is good advice for anyone, but especially true for magic-users. I loved-- LOVED-- playing a low-level wizard. Because their survival tips really just basically dove-tailed what any intelligent _fighter _should have done as well... but you never got called on it. 

NOT. YOUR. JOB.

And before you know it, you're the most powerful character in the party.


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## Bullgrit (May 27, 2009)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Everybody is a badass in D&D. Everybody is a badass over the internet. Compound the two and there's a lot of badasses out there telling you how much badder they are than you.



Yeah, that's why I added the "Or something else" to my post.

They're all wiser, smarter, faster, luckier, and probably better looking too.

Bullgrit


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## JRRNeiklot (May 27, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.
> 
> Bullgrit




Believe me, I had my share of deaths.  That's how we learned we WEREN'T badasses.  Trial and error.  After Knuckles the fifth died charging in, we learned to be a bit more strategic, and yes, paranoid.  When you enter the lair of creatures who rape cattle and flay old women for entertainment, you had damn well be paranoid, because everything IS out to get you.  Almost everything, anyway.


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## Mythmere1 (May 27, 2009)

Philotomy Jurament said:


> (and the record on hirelings is bad enough that the PCs have developed a reputation and are having a hard time hiring anyone).




What, you mean just because there's a private graveyard out back of the farmhouse?  I don't think we're up to more than about six graves, are we?


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## Remathilis (May 28, 2009)

Ok, I'll be the pink elephant in the room.

I cheated. A lot. 

1.) I allowed alternate char-gen (4d6 as soon as 2e), and was pretty liberal about re-rolls. Most the PCs in my game had good stats (a few were weaker, and "unfairly ubers" took a lot of grief).

2.) I allowed max hp at 1st level. Most Pcs could re-roll 1s or 2s on HD rolls.

3.) I allowed Max Gold at 1st level. (Most warriors could afford chain armor)

4.) I didn't use large hordes of monsters (typically 4-6 in a decent encounter) or a lot of random encounters (a lot. I did use them.)

5.) I gave out XP for quest completion, "role-playing" a situation, and acting in role (clerics evangelizing, wizards learning new stuff, etc)

6.) I used a lot of additional rules (kits, etc)

7.) I wasn't shy about "good" treasure (bracers of armor, +1 gear, elf-cloaks, rings of protection, scrolls and wands, etc)

8.) When all else fails, I'd "roll" low on the dice. (typically on damage rolls)

Sure, I saw deaths. Even good stats (which raised things like thief %s and cleric bonus spells) and optional rules didn't stop deaths. But my group was very RP/story driven, and the idea of having "Bob VII the fighter" being the guy who survived to 3rd level didn't appeal to us. 

To this day, I'm not a giant fan of the "disposable hero" syndrome. It feels more "gamist" than any "daily martial power" or "Your 5th level, you can now fight gnolls" encounter.


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## The Ghost (May 28, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> What was your experience with old-school low levels? Can you believe a tale of novice PCs surviving on their first adventure (without “help”)?




Yes, I still have the very first character I made for First Edition - Malcolm. He survived until level nine at which point we left for college and stopped playing. I do not think that my Dungeon Master was soft with us - he let the dice fall where they may. I do think, though, that our idea of what was fun and interesting may not be typical of the average gaming group. 

Our very first "adventure" involved a knightly tournament in which my character served as a squire to another knight. He was forced to compete when his master disappeared. He won a small amount of gold (which equaled experience in First Edition ) and went on a quest to find his master. 

In four years of playing I entered a grand total of one dungeon; fought one dragon, zero goblins, orcs, et cetera; acquired one magic item; and became a baron. Is this typical? Probably not. But it is how we played and, thus, how my character survived.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 28, 2009)

The Ghost said:


> Our very first "adventure" involved a knightly tournament in which my character served as a squire to another knight. In four years of playing I entered a grand total of one dungeon.




Pfft. I had a character that was WAY wussier than that.


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## Remathilis (May 28, 2009)

rkwoodard said:


> Ah, fond memories.
> 
> 4 or 5 characters go into the dungeon or bandit area, fight one very small group of orcs or goblins and then retreat.  Not because the wizard is out of spells, but because
> 
> ...




You know, after reading this, I now know why the "fondly remembered" PCs are rarely clerics, thieves or fighters...



haakon1 said:


> OK.  First, my party would be listening at the door.  If we heard them, we'd try to go in guns blazing and hope for surprise or at least initiative.  If we failed, we retreat to a corner and make them fight around it, or slam the door and spike it closed.  (Of course, we use the same tactics in 3.5e as in AD&D on this stuff.)




Well, assuming we're talking pre-3e rolls, most PCs could only hear noise on a 1 in 6 chance (that's 15%?) and the thief had an 18-20%. 

PCs: We listen at the door.
DM rolls: You hear nothing.
PCs: Damn. Lets leave for the day and try again tomorrow.

Talk about your 15-min workdays!



haakon1 said:


> The monk or thief was going first, and using 10' pole, everywhere.  Slow, but effective.  The MU is NEVER, EVER, in front or in back.  The approved marching order is: point-man, killer meatshield, secondary meatshield, MU, cleric, tertiary meatshield.  Protect the MU . . . if you can get an MU who survives, the whole party is rocking.  (Again, we go similar marching orders in 3.5e, but we have dispensed with the 10' pole -- why pole when you can just roll?)




Still, it doesn't stop the missed traps, or the ones that require more than the few pounds of pressure a pole creates. (Poles are not an exact science). 



haakon1 said:


> Everyone stands outside the room, while the thief smashes the chest with an axe.  If there's a poison gas trap this time, oh well, get a new thief.  (Or, in 3.5e, have another PC start taking Rogue levels.)




Wow. No I KNOW why no one played thieves! The best role a thief could play in a group was to hang out with the wizard, shoot a shortbow, and soak up XP until he was 6th level! 



Wulf Ratbane said:


> This is good advice for anyone, but especially true for magic-users. I loved-- LOVED-- playing a low-level wizard. Because their survival tips really just basically dove-tailed what any intelligent _fighter _should have done as well... but you never got called on it.
> 
> And before you know it, you're the most powerful character in the party.




You know, I don't lament the days of "the magic-user and his disposable entourage" being the typical D&D party.


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## The Ghost (May 28, 2009)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> Pfft. I had a character that was WAY wussier than that.




Wussy? Perhaps in the way that Galahad and Percival are wussy compared to Conan. Which is more entertaining? That is matter of personal taste. I prefer the former.


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## Doug McCrae (May 28, 2009)

Are war dogs the same as guard dogs? I could only find guard and hunting dogs in the 1e PHB.


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## merelycompetent (May 28, 2009)

For us it was pretty straight forward:

Learn or die. Have fun learning, and have fun dying.

I went from Basic D&D to Expert, to AD&D, then onwards. The groups I played with houseruled the heck out of the game. Everyone in the area figured out pretty early on that rolling a bunch of average stats was no fun, so point systems, 4d6 + reroll 1's + take highest 3 + assign as you like, and many other variants became the norm. We were teenage geeks and nerds. We wanted to play Conan-, Gandalf-, Chu'Chulain-, Fafhrd-, Grey Mouser-types. Not Wingnut the wussy fighter. As one DM put it: You can keep on rolling masses of 3d6, writing down the stats, and having the character suicide until you get some fun stats... or you can use this point-buy system I've been thinking about.

I figure I had somewhere between 1 in 4 to 1 in 3 of my characters die before 5th level.

Mostly, we learned not to do suicidally stupid things (i.e., cause and effect). We watched how others gamed and adapted their tricks and tactics. We sent out sneaky thieves to scout ahead for pit traps that would gack the MU. We guarded our rears. We ran away A LOT!! We laughed when the 14th level MU thought we were his entourage, and let a bunch of demons get in to melee range with him for a round. No more put-downs after that resurrection. The whole group cheered when my cleric, Tain, was knighted and became known as Sir Tain the Faithfully Sure. Except the DM - he was banging his head on the table because he suddenly realized I'd spent the last year of real time setting up that pun. One of my first characters, Douglas (yeah, guess where I stole the name from), was a thief and survived to legendary status - eventually becoming the Guildmaster of Thieves in Greyhawk City, faking his own death to retire, then dual-classing to a couple of other classes (long story) and becoming a walking illustration of 1E dual-classing rules follies. That was before he became a demigod vampire. Sort of. He certainly made use of the hear noise percentages at every opportunity, and saved many fellow adventurers from unnecessary damage. Yeah, sure, sometimes he didn't make the roll. But the sure way to fail is to not try... or make too much noise griping about failed attempts. Heck, there was that one time he failed to hear the ogre charging the door in Keep on the Borderlands! The MU offered to help, since the door was obviously untrapped (the thief was listening at it and nothing bad happened). The MU almost bought it then and there when the ogre came crashing through the door and tromped the thief and MU beneath it. Together, we almost made a squished multi-classed human MU/Thief. The fighter's player laughed so hard he sprayed pizza on the playroom wall. We spent most of the night trying to clean it off before my parents found out.

Looking back on it, yeah, I ran into some lousy DMs and lousy players. But they were few and far between. I tend to remember the high points more than the low ones, because there were a LOT of high points. I didn't stick with groups or individuals that I didn't get along with. I also developed ways to weed out people I knew I wouldn't get along with from groups I DMed for. And I would quietly leave groups who had players (or DMs) that I wasn't a good match with.

We survived by making houserules so the game was more fun, learning basic tactics and strategy, and reminding ourselves that even utter dimwit characters (Int or Wis 3) either learn from experience or die. A wise gamer I met pointed out to a young and too-by-the-book young DM (yours truly) that when the PCs run out of hit points, you can't torture them any more. So don't make them run out of hit points too soon. Pace yourself. It's not meant to be a horror house for the DM's entertainment. But if the hit points don't drop, the players will lose interest.

That's how our characters survived beyond 1st level: We learned, worked with the DM, and ran away a lot.


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## Doug McCrae (May 28, 2009)

The Ghost said:


> In four years of playing I entered a grand total of one dungeon; fought one dragon, zero goblins, orcs, et cetera; acquired one magic item; and became a baron. Is this typical? Probably not. But it is how we played and, thus, how my character survived.



That's truly amazing. So D&D encourages players never to go down dungeons. I do feel that's where Tomb of Horrors-style dungeons + gamism can lead you - players win the game by never going down dungeons, or at least never really interacting with them, which is basically the same thing. Tomb of Horrors was first completed by a party that used orc slaves to trigger all the traps.


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## The Ghost (May 28, 2009)

Doug McCrae said:


> That's truly amazing. So D&D encourages players never to go down dungeons. I do feel that's where Tomb of Horrors-style dungeons + gamism can lead you - players win the game by never going down dungeons, or at least never really interacting with them, which is basically the same thing. Tomb of Horrors was first completed by a party that used orc slaves to trigger all the traps.




I would not say that. I think in my case my group emphasized a more political, more intrigue-based game; almost to the point where combat was unnecessary. (Since gold gave experience in First Edition there was never a lack of "encounters" to pursue.) The fact that we used the First Edition rules to facilitate the story we wished to tell in no way suggests those rules encourage our particular style of play. It only allows that style as an option. Tomb of Horrors being the preeminent adventure of that type.


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## Doug McCrae (May 28, 2009)

But wouldn't you say your character was more successful because he never went down dungeons? He could gain xp from gold but without risking his life.

I find the concept that the Dungeons & Dragons rpg might encourage the players to avoid dungeons like the plague both hilarious and wonderful.


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## Inez Hull (May 28, 2009)

Storminator said:


> "My 8th level cleric stands atop the Pyramid of Death!"
> 
> PS





This.


My first decade of gaming was in BECMI (we went straight from BECMI to 3E) and we saw PC deaths regularly and TPK's were not an odd occurance. You get around it with better tactics and smart play and we made a few rules tweaks like max HP on first level and deaths door, but ATEOTD mortality is just part of the system - and often a fun part! Funnily enough, even though we have matured as a gaming group that element of our games often remains 20 years on. We've come to call the style of play "hardball". As a GM if you try to hard out an easy break the players resist it - they want to earn their PC's stripes the old, bloody way. It means you find ways of getting around combat, but once blades are drawn expect [PC] blood to flow.


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## haakon1 (May 28, 2009)

Raven Crowking said:


> For the record, I think that the OP is correct.  Earlier D&D was harder to succeed in.  Low-level bodies piled up.  Success wasn't guaranteed.  That was part of the game.




Part of the fun, indeed.  For the people I game with, it was also true in 3.5e.  The first dungeon in Cauldron ate what adds up to two parties for us.  After the TPK, we gave up.


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## haakon1 (May 28, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.




AD&D was ADVANCED D&D, after all, not for the hobbyist gamer.  

Seriously, I was TAUGHT the game by somebody who had played before.  So I never had to pick up the books and guess what to do.  I also read the books religiously and memorized just about all Gary's adventuring advice.  When I said "read religiously", I mean this in the context of going to a Catholic school where we memorized a lot of stuff.  I was well-aware of living to fight another day . . . and perhaps just more paranoid/cautious than most.

My DM had to arrest my PC's sometimes to get them to go into a dungeon at all!  That stuff is dangerous!


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## haakon1 (May 28, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> You know, after reading this, I now know why the "fondly remembered" PCs are rarely clerics, thieves or fighters...




My favs were fighters, paladins, and clerics.  Clerics had the best survivability.




Remathilis said:


> PCs: We listen at the door.
> DM rolls: You hear nothing.
> PCs: Damn. Lets leave for the day and try again tomorrow.




More like:
PC Thief: Check the door for traps, looking at the hinges, the floor below, and the ceiling above.  Anything unusual?  Is there a lock?
DM rolls: You don't see anything unusual.  There doesn't appear to be a lock.
PC Thief: Any light coming in around the door?
DM: Yes, a little bit.
PC Thief: I take off my helmet, press my ear to the door, and listen.  What do I hear?
DM rolls: Nothing.
PC Thief:  I step back and whisper to the party: "Seems like no traps or locks, but there's light beyond."
PC Fighter:  I'll open it.  I draw my sword.
etc.




Remathilis said:


> Still, it doesn't stop the missed traps, or the ones that require more than the few pounds of pressure a pole creates. (Poles are not an exact science).




Tapping and listening for hollow spaces, not hoping to trigger a trap.  The big pits are where the monk in the lead shines, with their falling ability.



Remathilis said:


> Wow. No I KNOW why no one played thieves! The best role a thief could play in a group was to hang out with the wizard, shoot a shortbow, and soak up XP until he was 6th level!




Honestly, thief was my least favorite class to play, and I had at least a 50% death rate with them.  But we usually treated it as a dungeon exploration technician, not a thief/rogue/swashbuckler, but a combat engineer/EOD expert.  Some folks like that role in D&D -- and I have total respect for it in real life.


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## Lanefan (May 28, 2009)

merelycompetent said:


> For us it was pretty straight forward:
> 
> Learn or die. Have fun learning, and have fun dying.



Or just keep on having fun dying.  I've been doing that for about 27 years now... 

I went from Basic D&D to Expert, to AD&D, then onwards. The groups I played with houseruled the heck out of the game. Everyone in the area figured out pretty early on that rolling a bunch of average stats was no fun, so point systems, 4d6 + reroll 1's + take highest 3 + assign as you like, and many other variants became the norm. 
[...]
We survived by making houserules so the game was more fun, learning basic tactics and strategy, and reminding ourselves that even utter dimwit characters (Int or Wis 3) either learn from experience or die.[/QUOTE]Utter dimwit players occasionally learn, too...but not always. 


> A wise gamer I met pointed out to a young and too-by-the-book young DM (yours truly) that when the PCs run out of hit points, you can't torture them any more. So don't make them run out of hit points too soon. Pace yourself. It's not meant to be a horror house for the DM's entertainment. But if the hit points don't drop, the players will lose interest.



True enough; and good advice.

What I find is that no matter how many characters die, as long as there's one survivor that gets back to town the party (and thus, game) goes on.  And it never fails there's always one player - and not always the same one - who keeps some sort of escape strategy on hand at all times even at the lowest of character levels, in part for just this reason.  Maybe this is why in 25 years of Viking-hat 1e DMing I have never been able to kill off an entire party, despite some very close shaves and many situations where things were such that they probably all deserved to die. (yet a friend started running a 3e game last summer and went through 2 entire parties in a month!)

And, it doesn't take long for parties to build up enough resources to start bringing people back to life, at which point you're set.

As for how to survive: learn the roll-up tables.  Use repeatedly.  Eventually, one or two of your PCs will last long enough to build up some levels and wealth; and away you go. 

Lan-"rookie of the year in 1984 and still going"-efan


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## Lanefan (May 28, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> You know, after reading this, I now know why the "fondly remembered" PCs are rarely clerics, thieves or fighters...



Hmmm...the two most successful old-school characters I ever had were a Fighter (Lanefan by name, oddly enough  )  and a gonzo Dwarf Cleric who acted like a Fighter.

I've never run a pure Thief long-term; the most successful ones I've seen other people run were played more like light stealthy Fighters, that would sneak in for a backstrike but have enough starch and ability to then stand in for the rest of the battle.


> Wow. No I KNOW why no one played thieves! The best role a thief could play in a group was to hang out with the wizard, shoot a shortbow, and soak up XP until he was 6th level!



A lot depends here on what the DM and the rest of the players will let you get away with in terms of solo scouting (and pilfering) forays; as that's where Thieves really shine.  If the DM/players won't stand for solo scouts, the Thief is somewhat hamstrung.


> You know, I don't lament the days of "the magic-user and his disposable entourage" being the typical D&D party.



True.  "The disposable magic-user and his ever-wealthier entourage" is, however, a party structure I've seen evolve on more than one occasion. 

Lan-"I own a wizardslayer longsword and know how to use it"-efan


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## haakon1 (May 28, 2009)

Lanefan said:


> True.  "The disposable magic-user and his ever-wealthier entourage" is, however, a party structure I've seen evolve on more than one occasion.




I've definitely seen this too.  Keeping the MU alive was a challenge.


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## Korgoth (May 28, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.
> 
> Bullgrit




Right... either you're fallible or they're liars. Hmm.  Don't be hatin' just 'cause you can't hack it. 

Seriously, though, you should listen to some of the advice in this thread. And here's one that I cannot emphasize enough: flaming oil. It's worth its weight in gold.

My Empire of the Petal Throne (1975) group only lost 1 character in the underworld. The party is now mostly level 4 (one level 3 who joined late... I start everybody off at 1). They leaned heavily on the following tactics:
1. Flaming oil.
2. Hirelings... crunch all you want, they'll hire more.
3. Fleeing stuff that looked / sounded / smelled too scary.
4. Offering parley to intelligent encounters.
5. Used up magic items without reservation.
6. Just plain good at solving puzzles & riddles and avoiding traps.

That's another one you should use: parley. Unless your DM is a hoser who never lets the monsters even talk to you, it is extremely useful. Some monsters don't always want to fight. Sometimes they can be bribed, and some aren't even hostile at all but are in the dungeon as information sources and role playing opportunities.*

* - As one of my players observed about a strangely mutated but beautiful witch they encountered on the 4th level: never attack a pretty girl in the wilderness. If she can survive in that environment then you do not want to go there. And he was right.


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## Betote (May 28, 2009)

I have to confess that our main experiences with BD&D (Rules Cyclopedia / Labyrinth Lord) were indeed _post-3e_. In fact, They've been after several 3.x TPKs in Age of Worms. So it's understandable for us to be paranoid 

We also used some houserules:
* "Broken shield": If a character had a shield, he could discard it instead of suffering damage from an attack. This could be done after rolling for damage.
* Max. hps at 1st level.
* PCs are unconscious at 0 hp, dead at -10.


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## Cadfan (May 28, 2009)

haakon1 said:


> More like:
> PC Thief: Check the door for traps, looking at the hinges, the floor below, and the ceiling above. Anything unusual? Is there a lock?
> DM rolls: You don't see anything unusual. There doesn't appear to be a lock.
> PC Thief: Any light coming in around the door?
> ...



That's it?  That was your door opening procedure?

No wonder all your thieves died.

Our door opening practices and procedures handbook was so long that I can't even remember all the steps in the checklist anymore.  In the culture of early edition fandom, that means I am EXTREMELY MANLY.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 28, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Our door opening practices and procedures handbook was so long that I can't even remember all the steps in the checklist anymore.  In the culture of early edition fandom, that means I am EXTREMELY MANLY.




That's why I've switched gears to out-mincing The Ghost. More challenging.

You say you played the likes of Galahad and Percival! Ha! I played second squire to Percival's squire. He was a wan, pasty boy, whose days were spent washing (and then lightly perfuming) the smallclothes of the first squire. He dreamed that one day he might screw up the courage to perform the song he might one day write about the exploits of the first squire of Percival.

He avoided more dungeons than your character ever even _dreamed _of avoiding.


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## an_idol_mind (May 28, 2009)

War dogs. They were something like 15gp on the equipment list, and they had a better chance of survival than most 1st-level fighters. Really, well-trained animals of any kind were a low-level adventurer's best friend.


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## Quartz (May 28, 2009)

Jeebus, but it's 30+ years ago that I first played. I don't remember a lot of dying early on, though I do remember my 1st level thief on his own encountering a 2nd level evil cleric and surviving. Mostly we survived. Ranged combat was key. We had none of this 'first level wizards are only good for one spell' malarkey. All characters had bandoleers of daggers or darts or oil to set afire. Going toe to toe was a last resort. Sure treasure chests were trapped: we opened them from afar. Or got prisoners to do it. Or broke the chest open by tossing it in a pit trap. Never stand in front of an open door. We purchased scrolls and potions galore. We used the environment. Happy days.


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## ExploderWizard (May 28, 2009)

My early Holmes/Moldvay playing experiences were full of character death. Becoming a 2nd level character was something to be celebrated instead of expected. Our parties did not play very intelligently at first (thus the deaths) and it took some effort to become cautious enough for survival to become a regular occurance rather than the exception. We were 10 year old kids and the concept of a merciful DM didn't occur to us at first. 
At some point we started declaring max HP at 1st level as a universal house rule. 

Frequent deaths did have one effect on our games that has been hard to recapture. When the party DID actually make it out alive on thier own the thrill of victory was very strong.

As I remember, the frequent and hideous deaths that happened on most adventures didn't kill the fun for us. When a PC died (especially doing something stupid), we would all get a laugh out of it, roll up a quick replacement, and move on. That feel is harder to capture with modern systems where characters have to be built rather than generated and require so much time to put together. Character death has always been a part of the game but it has become more of a chore to work up a new PC these days which makes PC death a lot less fun than it used to be.


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## Storminator (May 28, 2009)

haakon1 said:


> Honestly, thief was my least favorite class to play, and I had at least a 50% death rate with them.  But we usually treated it as a dungeon exploration technician, not a thief/rogue/swashbuckler, but a combat engineer/EOD expert.  Some folks like that role in D&D -- and I have total respect for it in real life.




We lost all our thieves. We had 4th level PCs, but no thief. Since it was impossible to make a character at higher than 1st level (how would you know how many magic items he had?!) We had to make another 1st level thief... But we didn't want to make another 1st level party, since the odds of getting a thief up to 4th level were pretty poor (see all the dead thieves...).

So we had the Darwinian Crime Spree! We made 26 1st level thieves with brilliant names like A-1, B-52, CO2, D-Day... and sent them against the Keep on the Borderlands in a massive crime wave. Each thief robbed and stole until he was caught. The last surviving thief got all the XP (remember to divide by the number of survivors!) and made it to 4th level. That's how we ended up with an awesome thief named H2O.

PS


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## The Ghost (May 28, 2009)

Doug McCrae said:


> But wouldn't you say your character was more successful because he never went down dungeons? He could gain xp from gold but without risking his life.




It is a mistake to say that he never put his life at risk - he did. Just not in the traditional sense of going down into a dungeon and cleaning out all the monsters that inhabited it. The one dungeon my character found himself in was because he was captured. An actual dungeon!

Our inspiration for playing the game was found in movies like: _Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves_, _Braveheart, First Knight, Excalibur, _and _The Sword in the Stone._ Often our adventures were about robbing the rich to give to the poor, seeking out holy relics, organizing the people to fight against the evil baron, finding mystical allies to help our cause, etc. When combats did occur, which were about 2-4 times per character level, we tried to do so on our terms. For example, ambushes were a common tactic. Really, we just mimiced what we saw in movies.



Doug McCrae said:


> I find the concept that the Dungeons & Dragons rpg might encourage the players to avoid dungeons like the plague both hilarious and wonderful.




I suppose from a certain point of view it is a little ironic that an optimal way to game the system, so to speak, is to completely avoid both dungeons and dragons. Our intention was never to game the system, but to mimic the movies we loved.


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## Hussar (May 28, 2009)

I did too, but, I'm not entirely sure some of the things you list here are cheating.



Remathilis said:


> Ok, I'll be the pink elephant in the room.
> 
> I cheated. A lot.
> 
> 1.) I allowed alternate char-gen (4d6 as soon as 2e), and was pretty liberal about re-rolls. Most the PCs in my game had good stats (a few were weaker, and "unfairly ubers" took a lot of grief).




4d6 drop the lowest was the standard rolling method in 1e D&D.  Basic/Expert D&D allowed you to lower some stats in order to raise others at a cost of 2 for 1.  3d6 in order with no changes is OD&D only I believe.



> 2.) I allowed max hp at 1st level. Most Pcs could re-roll 1s or 2s on HD rolls.




We did this one too.  Continued doing it in 1e.  Made rangers rock on toast.  16 con got you 20 hp at 1st level.  



> 3.) I allowed Max Gold at 1st level. (Most warriors could afford chain armor)




We didn't do this one.  But, then again, Plate mail was only 60 gold, so, it wasn't like your fighter wasn't going to start with a 2 AC right off the shot.



> 4.) I didn't use large hordes of monsters (typically 4-6 in a decent encounter) or a lot of random encounters (a lot. I did use them.)




Now, we did use hordes.  Mostly cos we played modules.



> 5.) I gave out XP for quest completion, "role-playing" a situation, and acting in role (clerics evangelizing, wizards learning new stuff, etc)




Y'know, even in 1e, we gave bonus xp to casters for casting spells.  Surprised the heck out of me when our house rule became official in 2e.



> 6.) I used a lot of additional rules (kits, etc)




Yup.  Loved me the heck out of the Unearthed Arcana 1e.  Just warmed my munchkin little cockles it did.  



> 7.) I wasn't shy about "good" treasure (bracers of armor, +1 gear, elf-cloaks, rings of protection, scrolls and wands, etc)




Me too.  Then again, we ran modules and those things were just STACKED.



> 8.) When all else fails, I'd "roll" low on the dice. (typically on damage rolls)
> 
> Sure, I saw deaths. Even good stats (which raised things like thief %s and cleric bonus spells) and optional rules didn't stop deaths. But my group was very RP/story driven, and the idea of having "Bob VII the fighter" being the guy who survived to 3rd level didn't appeal to us.
> 
> To this day, I'm not a giant fan of the "disposable hero" syndrome. It feels more "gamist" than any "daily martial power" or "Your 5th level, you can now fight gnolls" encounter.




Yup, pretty much the same here.  

Funnily enough, when I did run 3e straight by the book, I slaughtered the PC's.  The campaign averaged a PC death every three sessions.  Gack.  Since then, I use Action Points to mitigate 3e lethality and that's worked for us.


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## Dyson Logos (May 28, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> You know, after reading this, I now know why the "fondly remembered" PCs are rarely clerics, thieves or fighters...




In your games maybe.

My favourite characters are a thief and a cleric. Clerics especially as the front-line warriors of their gods / churches / cults / personal craziness remain one of my favourite characters throughout all editions. The leader in our B/X campaign is a cleric (as was the leader in our last game, which was a TPK). 



> Wow. No I KNOW why no one played thieves! The best role a thief could play in a group was to hang out with the wizard, shoot a shortbow, and soak up XP until he was 6th level!




Not quite, but close at times. Once the elven cloak and boots were in play, however, the thief's ability to backstab got pretty brutal. Also by level 3 they are hearing noise 50% of the time in B/X (and they hit level 3 while the elf was still level 1).


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## Dyson Logos (May 28, 2009)

Quartz said:


> Sure treasure chests were trapped: we opened them from afar. Or got prisoners to do it. Or broke the chest open by tossing it in a pit trap.




Charm Person wasn't a spell for turning monsters against their kin, it was a way to ensure we had a door & chest opening machine on our side.


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## Rel (May 28, 2009)

We had some deaths but I think we also cheated a lot to avoid them.

But this thread has been inspirational.  I think I might run a Basic D&D game at the next NC Game Day.


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## Fifth Element (May 28, 2009)

I remember doing the Caves of Chaos one room per day. Clear out one room, high-tail it back to town to heal and regain spells, and then back the next day for the next room. Otherwise we would've been toast. So many humanoids!

My very first AD&D character was a paladin - I rolled a 17 Charisma on 3d6! He was sent on a glorious mission into the sewers to kill some sewer goblins. First thing he did was fall into a pit and die. Good times!


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## Ariosto (May 28, 2009)

The combination of maximum (or even above-average) HP at 1st level with provision for being "out, but not dead" at negative points can nearly eliminate PC deaths short of _coups de grace_. I have found the latter provision particularly odious, though; I would rather employ some sort of saving throw if I want to make such an allowance.

Without such modifications, 1st-level characters are indeed prone to high mortality rates -- very high in combination with novice players. Of course, lack of skill can doom characters of _any_ level!

I think the low-level game is key to initial development of essential skills, and excellent for getting back up to speed when those have gone rusty. It can also be a great change of pace after a lot of high-level play, offering distinct challenges.

Once upon a time, it was also commonly a process of real discovery by players who did not know thing one about the monsters and magic of D&D. (For that reason, it was preferable if at all possible to play for a while before "parting the veil" by reading the material a DM needed to know.) The death of a character was (for most of us, in my experience) not a big "bummer" but an addition to the thrill -- and an _opportunity_ to roll up another, perhaps of different sort. The toss of the dice was delightful suspense, and the dungeons always held fresh mysteries in their depths. I  would give the analogy of a friend's cat that fell out a window, survived without serious injury a bounce off a (parked) car ... and, as soon as it was retrieved, seemed intent on _jumping_ the same course! Whee!

When one has "been there, done that" times enough to get jaded, one may wish to skip that phase and start at (say) 4th or 5th level. I prefer that to "jacking up" 1st-level PCs. However, I also prefer to hand-wave the competence of such characters as primarily the result of being especially gifted -- as opposed to coming up with "back stories" as copious as the tales that actual play up to that point would have produced. The biography that really matters, in my view, is what emerges in play.


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## Remathilis (May 28, 2009)

Hussar said:


> 4d6 drop the lowest was the standard rolling method in 1e D&D.  Basic/Expert D&D allowed you to lower some stats in order to raise others at a cost of 2 for 1.  3d6 in order with no changes is OD&D only I believe.
> 
> We didn't do this one.  But, then again, Plate mail was only 60 gold, so, it wasn't like your fighter wasn't going to start with a 2 AC right off the shot.
> 
> Funnily enough, when I did run 3e straight by the book, I slaughtered the PC's.  The campaign averaged a PC death every three sessions.  Gack.  Since then, I use Action Points to mitigate 3e lethality and that's worked for us.




Mind you, I played 2e after starting in the Rules Cyclopedia. Both of them list 3d6 in order as the normal method of stat gen, but both give generous alternative methods (4d6 is "Method V" in 2e). As soon as we found it, we switched to it, and most of us had "good hands" (sometimes legit, sometimes not so) so it was rare to see anyone with at least a 17 in a prime requisite.

Similarly, in 2e a fighter began with 5d4x 10 gp and plate mail was 600 gp. So chain, scale, and splint were all common starting armors after the max gold rule came. It meant most fighters could afford 1-2 good weapons (sword & a bow usually) decent armor and possibly shield, and the "standard adventurers kit" of his day. 

Lastly, I know what you mean. APs have saved my group, as did adding SW Saga's Second Wind rule. Still hasn't stopped my Eberron group from suffering 7 deaths in 12 levels.


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## Stoat (May 28, 2009)

I fondly recall an adventure where the last conscious party member was the war dog.  Not only did "Fluffy" dispatch the last foe standing, she heroically dragged her master to safety, Lassie style.


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## Mythmere1 (May 28, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> Ok, I'll be the pink elephant in the room.
> 
> I cheated. A lot.




I assumed we were just talking about after we were all done cheating. 
My characters in 5th grade *somehow* managed to elude death a billion times.  By 6th grade ... not so much.


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## Set (May 28, 2009)

Stoat said:


> I fondly recall an adventure where the last conscious party member was the war dog. Not only did "Fluffy" dispatch the last foe standing, she heroically dragged her master to safety, Lassie style.




We had a 1st level Ranger with a war dog, and the Ranger spent 10 rounds fighting a single Orc (granted, it was the chieftan) while his war dog killed like six others...

Heck, that really hasn't changed since 1st edition. Our 3.5 Druids 'riding dog' Companions are usually the best tank in the party at 1st level!


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## Ed_Laprade (May 28, 2009)

JRRNeiklot said:


> Why just walk in a room full of goblins? They have to leave sometime, ambush them when they leave.



HA! I recall one dungeon (don't remember which) that had a 10x10 room with 30 Orcs in it (or some equally gonzo Old Skoolishness) that we sealed up for a week. When we opened it up, there they were, exactly as they'd been when we sealed the door. No latrine, no food, no air. Why were they still there? Because the GM decided that the whole thing *was* just so gonzo (the module said they did X when the door was open, and nothing else) that they were put into magical suspended animation whenever the door closed. We all groaned/chuckled at that, and continued onward...


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## S'mon (May 28, 2009)

Hussar said:


> Funnily enough, when I did run 3e straight by the book, I slaughtered the PC's.  The campaign averaged a PC death every three sessions.  Gack.  Since then, I use Action Points to mitigate 3e lethality and that's worked for us.




For most of my current 3e campaign I've been averaging 1 dead PC per 4 hour session.  I started using death at negative CON + 10 to reduce fatalities; still lost 2 PCs in 1 fight to a fireballing Wizard.  Funny thing is, I'm using B/X and C&C modules and monster stats to reduce the lethality!  

Maybe it's because players expect to win the fights in 3e they die so much.  Plus the modern modules especially can be rather linear.


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## EricNoah (May 28, 2009)

I'm trying to figure out why "play it straight by the book, live or die means nothing to me" never worked for me.  Two thoughts:

1) There are the rules to the game, and then there is the intent (which is certainly open to personal interpretation).  To me, the intent is the fun of adventuring, and the game is more fun when the characters have a decent shot at survival; plus I want to reward reasonable risk-taking as I find "probe every bit of floor with a 10' pole" utterly boring. 

2) D&D has always been my gateway at being the character in a fantasy novel.  If Bilbo had been killed by those trolls near the beginning of The Hobbit, there wouldn't have been a story about him.  So I think in my mind that's where the "PCs are special" mentality comes from.  They are the star of the show; things don't always work for them the way they work for everyone else; and further, the stars of the show should be able to direct luck their way a bit more than normal (thus my use of action-point style rules that allow the avoidance of the worst of the random luck of the dice).


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## Remathilis (May 29, 2009)

EricNoah said:


> I'm trying to figure out why "play it straight by the book, live or die means nothing to me" never worked for me.  Two thoughts:
> 
> 1) There are the rules to the game, and then there is the intent (which is certainly open to personal interpretation).  To me, the intent is the fun of adventuring, and the game is more fun when the characters have a decent shot at survival; plus I want to reward reasonable risk-taking as I find "probe every bit of floor with a 10' pole" utterly boring.
> 
> 2) D&D has always been my gateway at being the character in a fantasy novel.  If Bilbo had been killed by those trolls near the beginning of The Hobbit, there wouldn't have been a story about him.  So I think in my mind that's where the "PCs are special" mentality comes from.  They are the star of the show; things don't always work for them the way they work for everyone else; and further, the stars of the show should be able to direct luck their way a bit more than normal (thus my use of action-point style rules that allow the avoidance of the worst of the random luck of the dice).




Hey Eric, we come from the same gaming traditions. We used the rules to emulate the stories we loved, as opposed to running the rules and telling stories from the results. Both are valid, but our play style is very much the former than the latter (even today.)


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## Melan (May 29, 2009)

I have found that engaging encounters on your own terms and trying to withdraw from those where you don't have that is a good general rule to live by. But I also fondly remember my first character ever, who was killed by orcs in a mine in his first combat, the wizard who was caught breaking into a palace in his home town and had his hand chopped off as a punishment (harsh), or the 3.0 game where we all went down to a combination of orcs/shambling mound, the survivors sent a rescue expedition to retrieve and loot the corpses, and suffered a second TPK (brutal but fun).

What also helps is that I have never taken character death too hard - it is a cool war story, and often makes a character memorable even if he never realised his life goals or whatever... the classic example being Ratomil the Rogue, a thief character in my current campaign who died in the first round of his first combat _*before*_ gaining initiative, to 1 HD illusionary monsters. Ratomil is fondly remembered, while his player took out another sheet of paper and rolled up a new pc.

Of course, some people like a different type of fun, and more power to them. Myself, I like old school D&D because it is really my shrewdness making a difference between life and death. There are limits - I don't think I'd enjoy a hyper-paranoid don't-you-touch-anything campaign - but most of the time, I am all right with a bit of danger.


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## Hussar (May 29, 2009)

S'mon said:


> For most of my current 3e campaign I've been averaging 1 dead PC per 4 hour session.  I started using death at negative CON + 10 to reduce fatalities; still lost 2 PCs in 1 fight to a fireballing Wizard.  Funny thing is, I'm using B/X and C&C modules and monster stats to reduce the lethality!
> 
> Maybe it's because players expect to win the fights in 3e they die so much.  Plus the modern modules especially can be rather linear.




The big eye opener for me in 3e was the World's Largest Dungeon, where I was running three, four encounters pretty much every session.  3e monsters are just really, really lethal.  The fact that most creatures where CR=PC level can either incapacitate or outright kill a PC in a single full attack, while not likely, WILL come up from time to time.


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## Quartz (May 30, 2009)

Dyson Logos said:


> Charm Person wasn't a spell for turning monsters against their kin, it was a way to ensure we had a door & chest opening machine on our side.





Oh yes indeed.


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## baradtgnome (May 30, 2009)

EricNoah said:


> 1) There are the rules to the game, and then there is the intent (which is certainly open to personal interpretation).  To me, the intent is the fun of adventuring, and the game is more fun when the characters have a decent shot at survival; plus I want to reward reasonable risk-taking as I find "probe every bit of floor with a 10' pole" utterly boring.



Well said and agreed.  This is how we like our D&D.

For those who prodded every square foot of floor with a pole, listen at every door, and took every possible precaution in excrutiating detail  - I refer you to page 97 of the AD&D DMG.  Gary had little patience for that style of play and made recommendations on how to 'train' your players.  Anyone remember Ear Seekers? (page 36 AD&D MM).  

Now if you like having a checklist to open each and every door, and your DM supports that as good play.  Then for you it is.  Its just that we don't find that fun.



EricNoah said:


> 2) D&D has always been my gateway at being the character in a fantasy novel....



Again, I think we have a game more similar to Eric.  It took us a while to make the rule adjustments and player learning but we did, and still do, stay away from the grinding procedures and high kill rate games.  I don't think it is about right or wrong, just playing in a style that suits.


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## S'mon (May 30, 2009)

Hussar said:


> The big eye opener for me in 3e was the World's Largest Dungeon, where I was running three, four encounters pretty much every session.  3e monsters are just really, really lethal.  The fact that most creatures where CR=PC level can either incapacitate or outright kill a PC in a single full attack, while not likely, WILL come up from time to time.




Yeah, that's why I stopped using 3e monster stats in my 3e games.


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## rounser (May 30, 2009)

Um, you don't have to cheat or house rule running out of HP if you're using the Rules Cyclopedia.  There's optional "death's door" rules for below zero HP under the heading Keeping Characters Alive, page 266.

They even appear to be more forgiving than the 2E death's door rules, so long as someone has a healing skill, spell or potion handy.


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## S'mon (May 30, 2009)

rounser said:


> Um, you don't have to cheat or house rule running out of HP if you're using the RC.  There's optional "death's door" rules for below zero HP under the heading Keeping Characters Alive, page 266.
> 
> They even appear to be more forgiving than the 2E death's door rules, so long as someone has a healing skill, spell or potion handy.




I'm using that (Death Save at 0hp) in my current Labyrinth Lord chatroom Wilderlands game.  Came up last session when the halfling went one on one with the BBEG... luckily he made his death save & woke up cradled in the arms of his amazon ladyfriend.


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## rounser (May 30, 2009)

> I'm using that (Death Save at 0hp) in my current Labyrinth Lord chatroom Wilderlands game. Came up last session when the halfling went one on one with the BBEG... luckily he made his death save & woke up cradled in the arms of his amazon ladyfriend.



I note that one side effect of this rule is that a seventh level halfling or a tenth level dwarf or elf has a 95% chance of making this save, given they need a 2 or more.  

That makes them on average a cat with 19 lives from that point on.  Gimli, Legolas and Frodo get plot protection, seemingly.  

Given the lethal nature of unfudged BECMI D&D, I'm not sure that this is such a bad thing, but if you combine this rule with weapon mastery (deflect revolves around death ray saves as well) then you begin to make a stronger case for not using the no level limits optional rule for demihumans.

Come to think of it, elf with short sword weapon mastery (deflect and disarm) and dwarf with battle axe weapon mastery (delay and stun) are quite reminiscent of those LotR movie characters in melee.


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## GenghisDon (May 30, 2009)

Level 1 never was too popular with my crew. Starting at L 3 works just fine(I like L3 but no xp, it can take a while to hit 4.)  Same starting gp/gear.


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## S'mon (May 30, 2009)

rounser said:


> I note that one side effect of this rule is that a seventh level halfling or a tenth level dwarf or elf has a 95% chance of making this save, given they need a 2 or more.
> 
> That makes them on average a cat with 19 lives from that point on.  Gimli, Legolas and Frodo get plot protection, seemingly.
> 
> ...




I'm retaining the level limits, so the halfling can't go over 8th, while the human Fighter is unlimited.  Plus I'm restricting him to shortsword 1-h, longsword 2-h.  I'm also using max hp, which favours the d8 classes.  No weapon mastery in LL.


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## hewligan (May 31, 2009)

Betote said:


> I have to confess that our main experiences with BD&D (Rules Cyclopedia / Labyrinth Lord) were indeed _post-3e_. In fact, They've been after several 3.x TPKs in Age of Worms. So it's understandable for us to be paranoid
> 
> We also used some houserules:
> * "Broken shield": If a character had a shield, he could discard it instead of suffering damage from an attack. This could be done after rolling for damage.
> ...




The second and third of these houserules I have been using for years, but the first one is an interesting concept. It certainly addresses part of the problem with the shield just not being powerful enough (why take a shield in 3e or later when you can do double weapon fighting), and also seems to have quite a strong in-game reason for working.

I think I would adjust it a little, just to avoid it becoming unbalanced at higher levels when single foes dealing large amounts of damage with single attacks are more common than the multi-foe lower levels. Perhaps:

* "Broken shield": A character using a shield may elect to discard it in order to reduce the damage from an attack. The first 6 hp of damage are avoided completely, with any damage above this level being halved. This option can be elected after rolling for damage.

And to add my experiences to the thread: I was only lucky enough to play D&D for a few months before our GM, a teacher at high school, died. I then took over GMing, started a gaming group at lunch times (that grew to about 20 people playing all sorts of games), and just winged it. I was always in the school that preferred the story to develop and characters to build, and thus character death was a bit less common than the rules alone would suggest.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (May 31, 2009)

It is not the game you play - it is how you play it.  Always has been that way.  Always will be.


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## ehren37 (May 31, 2009)

haakon1 said:


> More like:
> PC Thief: Check the door for traps, looking at the hinges, the floor below, and the ceiling above.  Anything unusual?  Is there a lock?
> DM rolls: You don't see anything unusual.  There doesn't appear to be a lock.
> PC Thief: Any light coming in around the door?
> ...




You hear ear seekers. Because any DM that wants you to use a boring SOP to do something as simple as opening a friggin door will quickly grow tired of it working.

10 foot poles? Good for setting off 11 foot radius traps.

I really prefer a style where everyone agrees to dispense with the poking things with sticks and adventuring with 2 dozen red shirts in exchange for not putting screw job traps in the adventure. It feels more heroic both ways.


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## Remathilis (May 31, 2009)

ehren37 said:


> You hear ear seekers. Because any DM that wants you to use a boring SOP to do something as simple as opening a friggin door will quickly grow tired of it working.
> 
> 10 foot poles? Good for setting off 11 foot radius traps.
> 
> I really prefer a style where everyone agrees to dispense with the poking things with sticks and adventuring with 2 dozen red shirts in exchange for not putting screw job traps in the adventure. It feels more heroic both ways.




Bravo! 

In our games, we've used some "screw the PC" traps (in fact, every time we know we're playing a Goodman module, we double-check the traps for traps!) but we rarely used a lot of random traps, extremely powerful wandering monsters, ear-seekers, green slime, and cursed magical items for no other reason that the first few times, its scary and makes you cautious, the 35th time, your hacking apart chests with axes and spending 20 minutes (real time) at every door, hallway, and interpass. 

To quote Monty Python: "GET ON WITH IT!"


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## Reynard (Jun 1, 2009)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> It is not the game you play - it is how you play it.  Always has been that way.  Always will be.




I think this is an over simplification and undermines the importance of the system in a given game.  While I think it is _possible_ to play an "old school" style game in any edition of D&D, the farther you remove yourself from those "old school" rules the more difficult it becomes. 3E, for example, allowed  for "old school" play primarily at low levels because of its lethality (and retained it for the same reason throughout, though to a lesser degree). However, the increased power of the PCs made maintaining the "old school" feel more difficult, even at mid levels, and the focus on skills and feats (that is, mechanical character attributes rather than player interaction with the scenario) makes some aspects of old school play more difficult -- particularly with respect to traps and the like (though I recall a few arguments related to "caster levels" and such for enemies, as well).

In my relatively limited experience with 4E, these problems are mostly exacerbated. Characters, even at low levels, are less fragile, "powers" and skills/skill challenges undermine player-based engagement (at least as it relates to "old school" play; opbviously, using the system is still engagement by the players) and the ubiquity of "level appropriateness' all make old school much more difficult to do with 4E. While this doesn't in any way diminish 4E as a well designed game, it does make it difficult to continue to play the game as one might have played it in the new edition.

In the end, I think rules (or the lack of them) are important enough that people should choose games based on how theyw ant to play them, rather than attempt to shoe-horn a game into a style of play it wasn't really designed for. This isn't always plausible, of course (I am currently running a 3.5 game I had originally envisioned and desired to run as either AD&D or BECMI D&D, but the vote pushed it to 3.5 for familiarity) but in a perfect world, the right tool for the job may not always be the only tool, but it is the best tool.


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## Korgoth (Jun 1, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> Bravo!
> 
> In our games, we've used some "screw the PC" traps (in fact, every time we know we're playing a Goodman module, we double-check the traps for traps!) but we rarely used a lot of random traps, extremely powerful wandering monsters, ear-seekers, green slime, and cursed magical items for no other reason that the first few times, its scary and makes you cautious, the 35th time, your hacking apart chests with axes and spending 20 minutes (real time) at every door, hallway, and interpass.
> 
> To quote Monty Python: "GET ON WITH IT!"




In my OD&D/EPT campaign, I put in traps where the PCs ought to reasonably expect one. I don't like "random pit in the middle of the hallway" type stuff. Instead, think of the statue room from the temple at the start of Raiders of the Lost Ark. You see the faces on the wall, and the tiles, and you might expect that, given the room's importance, there could be a trap. Likewise, there's every reason to expect that the statue itself is trapped.

To me, randomly guessing whether there's a trap on an otherwise nondescript block of stone doesn't prove anything. The *game* is whether you can figure out where the traps are in an area that it is reasonable to suspect is trapped, and furthermore, whether you can figure out how to find them and how to get past them.


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## ExploderWizard (Jun 1, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> In my OD&D/EPT campaign, I put in traps where the PCs ought to reasonably expect one. I don't like "random pit in the middle of the hallway" type stuff. Instead, think of the statue room from the temple at the start of Raiders of the Lost Ark. You see the faces on the wall, and the tiles, and you might expect that, given the room's importance, there could be a trap. Likewise, there's every reason to expect that the statue itself is trapped.
> 
> To me, randomly guessing whether there's a trap on an otherwise nondescript block of stone doesn't prove anything. The *game* is whether you can figure out where the traps are in an area that it is reasonable to suspect is trapped, and furthermore, whether you can figure out how to find them and how to get past them.




This is right on target. For a totally random dungeon there can literally be traps everywhere because the entire layout (including occupants) don't make a lot of sense. In a more thoughfully designed environment traps won't be nearly as common as they are in some published dungeons.

Consider the typical low to mid level evil genius. This guy might have the brains to design and build some terrible traps all through his lair. A 10' wide corridor with a random pit trap in the right 5' section seems simple enough. He is smart enough to know where it is and it's easily avoided. What about the 7 INT kobolds that work for him? Chances are he would be fishing dead kobolds out of his trap more often than it would catch an intruder. The trap that lies beyond the bad guy's secret door on the way to his treasure stash makes more sense. Nobody but him should be there anyhow so it's a good place for a trap.


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## Rel (Jun 1, 2009)

ExploderWizard said:


> Consider the typical low to mid level evil genius. This guy might have the brains to design and build some terrible traps all through his lair. A 10' wide corridor with a random pit trap in the right 5' section seems simple enough. He is smart enough to know where it is and it's easily avoided. What about the 7 INT kobolds that work for him? Chances are he would be fishing dead kobolds out of his trap more often than it would catch an intruder.




What the PC's (and Kobolds) believe to be a misplaced trap is primarily a Kobold-Population-Control mechanism.  It also has a hidden extra benefit:  The average Kobold Int _used _to be 6...


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## Piratecat (Jun 1, 2009)

Rel said:


> What the PC's (and Kobolds) believe to be a misplaced trap is primarily a Kobold-Population-Control mechanism.  It also has a hidden extra benefit:  The average Kobold Int _used _to be 6...



Plus, he has a food source for feeding the other dungeon monsters.


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## Storminator (Jun 1, 2009)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> It is not the game you play - it is how you play it.  Always has been that way.  Always will be.




If you really believe that, try running an old school dungeon crawl with Monopoly rules. Or Cribbage. 

Rules matter.

PS


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## Remathilis (Jun 1, 2009)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> It is not the game you play - it is how you play it.  Always has been that way.  Always will be.




Yes and no.

If the purpose of beer is to get drunk, it doesn't matter what beer you drink as long as you're sufficiently hammered at the end of it. However, most people have specific favorite beers that suit their pallet in terms of taste, color, aroma, and smoothness. (And, of course, some don't use beer to get drunk, they prefer wine or harder stuff). 

Point is, yes as long as you're having fun it doesn't matter if its OD&D, AD&D 1e, 3.5 or whatever. However, some people prefer the mix of certain brews to others; don't give me a Bud Light when I ordered a Corona.


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## ExploderWizard (Jun 1, 2009)

Rel said:


> What the PC's (and Kobolds) believe to be a misplaced trap is primarily a Kobold-Population-Control mechanism. It also has a hidden extra benefit: The average Kobold Int _used _to be 6...




Hahaha!!  Now I see how Tucker's kobolds developed. Several generations later and you have some badass kobold commandos.


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## Korgoth (Jun 1, 2009)

ExploderWizard said:


> Hahaha!!  Now I see how Tucker's kobolds developed. Several generations later and you have some badass kobold commandos.




Actually, the entire dungeon is just a big "danger room" for producing the Uberkobold.


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## rogueattorney (Jun 1, 2009)

My first pc, a thief, died fighting the ogre in Keep on the Borderlands.  Since the moment Pickpocket (I had just seen Oliver Twist) got squished, I've never stopped loving B/X D&D.

I've found strength in numbers to be one of the keys of survival.  Getting some henchmen/hirelings/goons/Charmed bugbears to tag along always helps.  Note, I don't mean redshirts.  Getting your cronies killed is a good way to stop being able to find cronies.  I'd rather have a 4th level henchman who's been with me for years than have to hire a newbie every time out anyway.

Buy armor.  Plate mail with a club is always better than lightly armored with a ton of great weapons.

Ranged weapons.

Using choke points, doors, and other obstacles to your advantage such that you don't get swarmed under by the hordes.

Talking to the beasties is always good.  Try to get information from them.  Try to get them on your side.  Use the orcs against the goblins, etc.  Charisma is not a dump stat, use those reaction charts to your advantage.  If you don't have to fight the monster, don't.

Do the tasks your class was designed to do.  Fighters fight.  They don't poke around at ancient altars or try to open treasure chests.  That's a good way to get turned into a chicken, dissolved into goo, or otherwise come to an untimely end.  Same thing, but reversed for magic-users and thieves.

Always keep your eyes on the prize.  The way btb xp works in O(A)D&D, hacking your way through small critters simply isn't worth it.  You're looking for the big haul of treasure that will bump you up to 2nd level.  Use whatever guile you have at your disposal to locate the loot, grab it, and get out as quickly as possible.

O(A)D&D isn't about being a hero, it's about becoming a hero.  And you don't become a hero until 4th level.  Keep your head down and eyes open until then.


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## Bullgrit (Jun 1, 2009)

Several folks have mentioned in this thread that PCs should use specific strategies to avoid death in old-school D&D combat at first level.

"Using choke points, doors, and other obstacles to your advantage such that you don't get swarmed under by the hordes." is just the latest.

Although it's a good concept, death at 1st level in old school D&D can come even when Special Forces tactics are used. I mean, when _one_ hit could kill a fighter (not even a crit, or max damage, just a normal, average hit) there was no sure-fire safe tactic. Hell, winning initiative was a 50/50 chance.

All the "listen at the door," "draw them out," "throw flaming oil," etc. advice sounds wise (and smart alec), it doesn't ensure survival.

For instance, what did Frederick do wrong in this example of BD&D combat:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/250815-example-basic-d-d-combat.html

What did Morgan do right that kept her alive? Or was it all mostly luck that made the difference for them?

Bullgrit


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## Lanefan (Jun 1, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Several folks have mentioned in this thread that PCs should use specific strategies to avoid death in old-school D&D combat at first level.



"Avoid death" is probably too strong a term.

"Reduce the odds of death" is more what you're looking for.

When a party of 1st-levels marches into a dungeon, it's a safe bet they're not all coming out.  But those that do come out have taken the first step* to a heroic future... 

* - further steps not guaranteed.

Lan-"they went into the valley together, and one by one they never came out"-efan


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## Herschel (Jun 1, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> What was your experience with old-school low levels? Can you believe a tale of novice PCs surviving on their first adventure (without “help”)?
> 
> Bullgrit




Max HP at First Level cured the early mortality problem most of the time.


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## rogueattorney (Jun 1, 2009)

Herschel said:


> Max HP at First Level cured the early mortality problem most of the time.




I see this said a lot, but the math doesn't bear this out.

A first level character with Plate and Shield, fighting low level monsters (need a 17 to hit - or 20% chance), who do 3.5 points of damage per hit, basically do .7 points of damage a round averaged over a long term.

A character with 5 hit points thus survives on average just over 7 combat rounds, while a maxed-out character with 8 hit points lasts just under 11 1/2 combat rounds.  

In my experience, this difference has been too little to notice over the long
term.  Survival at low levels, in my experience, is much more tied to whether the character can afford to purchase plate mail at the start...

A first level character with Chain and Shield, fighting the same monsters (who now hit 30% of the time and thus do 1.05 points of damage a round) only last 7.6 rounds at max hit points, or a little less than half a round longer than the 5 hp character with Plate and Shield.  (The 5 hp character lasts about 4 1/2 rounds.)

It's curious that I often see people give out max hit points at first level while simultaneously making plate armor more expensive.

That's one of my few problems with the Labyrinth Lord clone of B/X.  While giving clerics 1st level spells (which, assuming that spell is CLW, essentially gives one character an average of 4.5 additional hit points per session), it makes plate armor too expensive for first level characters.  In the long term, that's going to make 1st level play much more deadly, even with the added cleric spell.


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## Harlekin (Jun 1, 2009)

rogueattorney said:


> I see this said a lot, but the math doesn't bear this out.
> 
> A first level character with Plate and Shield, fighting low level monsters (need a 17 to hit - or 20% chance), who do 3.5 points of damage per hit, basically do .7 points of damage a round averaged over a long term.
> 
> ...




Looking at the mean damage is probably not all that useful here. The variance is way to big to have the law of large numbers take over. 

If I have 8hp and each attack does 1d6 hp, i know that the first hit will not kill me and I can play accordingly. Once i am down to 4, I know that the next hit has 50% chance of killing me, and it is time to go home and rest. So my choices matter. If I start out with 3 hp, all I am trusting on is the luck of the die roll. I cannot adjust my strategy after the first hit, as I likely am dead.


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## rogueattorney (Jun 1, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> For instance, what did Frederick do wrong in this example of BD&D combat:
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/250815-example-basic-d-d-combat.html
> 
> What did Morgan do right that kept her alive? Or was it all mostly luck that made the difference for them?




It was four first or second level pcs against 12 hobgoblins.  Even with a Sleep spell on deck, that's a tough fight.  A pc is going to die in that fight.   If the dice go poorly, all the pcs might die in that fight.  What the party did wrong is that when the hobgoblins told the pcs to "go away" (the DM gave the players a chance to avoid the fight) the pcs didn't say "ok" and walk out of the room.  If they later find out that what they're looking for is through that room, they can always go back.  Maybe with some more muscle, better magic, or otherwise better prepared for the fight.

What purpose did that fight serve?  What treasure were the hobbos guarding?  What xp was to be gained that made it worth the risk of certain death for at least one pc to engage in that fight?


While the hobbos do tell the pcs where there treasure is after they surrender, the players had no way knowing they'd do that prior to getting into the fight, and the players (and we, because the narrative ends) have no way of knowing whether the hobbos told the truth, whether the treasure was substantial enough to be worth the Frederik's death, whether it's guarded beyond the poison needle trap, or whether the pcs ever actually acquire it.


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## S'mon (Jun 1, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Although it's a good concept, death at 1st level in old school D&D can come even when Special Forces tactics are used. I mean, when _one_ hit could kill a fighter...




Of course in the real world Special Forces soldiers can each survive dozens of hits before dying...


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## rogueattorney (Jun 1, 2009)

Harlekin said:


> I cannot adjust my strategy after the first hit, as I likely am dead.




Which is why a 3 hp character should do everything in his power to avoid getting into a melee.  Adjust your strategy before the fight ever begins.

PC death at first level in my B/X campaigns has been about a 50/50 proposition historically.  A ton of it is luck, but you can do things to sway the dice in your favor.  

But the main thing to remember is that once the dice hit the table. you're basically already dead.  The key is to do whatever you can to get the dice out of the DM's hand, while still moving towards the ultimate goal of getting enough gp (or whatever it is you give out xp for in your campaign) to make it to the next level.

I've said before, O(A)D&D, as written, was not about killing things and taking their stuff.  It was about taking their stuff without getting killed.


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## S'mon (Jun 1, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Hell, winning initiative was a 50/50 chance.




Nope.  You use reach weapons - spears or pole arms.  The orcs come at you with their axes & swords; your spears have longer reach so you get to attack first and skewer them.  In AD&D they'd be -2 AC and you'd do x2 damage, too.

Anyway, war dogs (AD&D guard dogs) + missile weapons.   Few monsters have missile weapons.  Don't go into melee.


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## ExploderWizard (Jun 1, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Several folks have mentioned in this thread that PCs should use specific strategies to avoid death in old-school D&D combat at first level.
> 
> "Using choke points, doors, and other obstacles to your advantage such that you don't get swarmed under by the hordes." is just the latest.
> 
> ...




Dungeon adventuring is a dangerous, risky undertaking. Luck has a lot more to do with survival at level 1 than just about any other time. 

One thing the party could have done after seeing the parley fail and being outnumbered would have been to feign intimidation and carefully withdraw when the hobgoblin told them to leave. Remember that the encounter started with the group kind of being caught unaware (though not suprised in game terms) by a group that outnumbers them by a lot. The best thing to try would be a withdrawal ( which the DM gave them as an option based on the hobgoblin's dialogue). The party could explore elsewhere, note the location of the hobgoblins and return when they were more prepared. 

The lethality of those early dungeons was part of the fun. It was easy to believe all the stories about previous unsuccessful adventurers after becoming one a few times. That same tired story doesn't carry the same weight in "balanced" adventures. After completing one you can't help but wonder how pathetic all those would-be heroes that came before you really were.


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## Mallus (Jun 1, 2009)

The thing I find most amusing about old-school D&D survival advice is the assumption that local markets, well stocked with Greek fire, well-trained combat dogs, and a near-endless supply of unemployed, idiotic lackeys perennially at-the-ready to marched to their doom into the Caves of Chaos or the Keep on the Borderlands, exist. 

Apparently most D&D-world economies produce these as a matter of logical course .


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## rogueattorney (Jun 1, 2009)

Mallus said:


> The thing I find most amusing about old-school D&D survival advice is the assumption that local markets, well stocked with Greek fire, well-trained combat dogs, and a near-endless supply of unemployed, idiotic lackeys perennially at-the-ready to marched to their doom into the Caves of Chaos or the Keep on the Borderland, exist.
> 
> Apparently most D&D-world economies produce these as a matter of logical course .




Any less logical than the well-stocked magic shops of later editions?


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## Mallus (Jun 1, 2009)

rogueattorney said:


> Any less logical than the well-stocked magic shops of later editions?



'Bout the same. 

The magic shops are markedly less amusing, however, because they don't involve heartlessly commoditizing the underemployed into disposable, multipurpose tools.


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## S'mon (Jun 1, 2009)

Mallus said:


> The thing I find most amusing about old-school D&D survival advice is the assumption that local markets, well stocked with Greek fire, well-trained combat dogs, and a near-endless supply of unemployed, idiotic lackeys perennially at-the-ready to marched to their doom into the Caves of Chaos or the Keep on the Borderlands, exist.
> 
> Apparently most D&D-world economies produce these as a matter of logical course .




No, you buy up stuff *as a part of character creation*.  That 3d6 roll for starting gold and the following equipment purchase is as much a part of your character as the 3d6 for his STR.  If you didn't buy guard dogs in character gen, don't be surprised when the GM points out the local village has no guard dogs for sale, that your PC has no experience in use of guard dogs, and that training them would take weeks or months anyway.


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## Lanefan (Jun 1, 2009)

Mallus said:


> The thing I find most amusing about old-school D&D survival advice is the assumption that local markets, well stocked with Greek fire, well-trained combat dogs, and a near-endless supply of unemployed, idiotic lackeys perennially at-the-ready to marched to their doom into the Caves of Chaos or the Keep on the Borderlands, exist.
> 
> Apparently most D&D-world economies produce these as a matter of logical course .



Perhaps.

Or, more likely, after the second or third request for more unemployed lackeys the townsfolk are going to ask what happened to the first lot, and then run you out of town on a rail.

We always used to have this problem when trying to find an extra Cleric for the party. They kept dying. Eventually, we ran out of towns that would even talk to us...

Lanefan


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## Harlekin (Jun 1, 2009)

S'mon said:


> Nope.  You use reach weapons - spears or pole arms.  The orcs come at you with their axes & swords; your spears have longer reach so you get to attack first and skewer them.  In AD&D they'd be -2 AC and you'd do x2 damage, too.
> 
> Anyway, war dogs (AD&D guard dogs) + missile weapons.   Few monsters have missile weapons.  Don't go into melee.




I am kind of amused by the constant mention of war dogs. I cannot imagine a dog that is trained well enough that it will follow a stranger into a dark alien smelling hole, attack with fiendish intelligence Undeads and Monsters and sacrifice itself for the life of the party. If I GM you would  need to raise the dog yourself and pass some checks on dog training if you ever wanted to expect such behavior.

Moreover, dogs and wolves are stated up as way too powerful in all editions of  D&D. If I was to pit even a Mastiff against a trained fighter in heavy armor with a decent weapon, I would expect to fighter to win 19 times out of 20. 

I guess this goes to show that one groups smart strategy is another groups silly attempt at rules abuse.


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## Mallus (Jun 1, 2009)

S'mon said:


> If you didn't buy guard dogs in character gen, don't be surprised when the GM points out the local village has no guard dogs for sale, *that your PC has no experience in use of guard dogs*, and that training them would take weeks or months anyway.



Wait, you know how to use a combat dog if you purchase it w/your starting gold, but forget how to use one later? It's Vancian dog-ownership... awesome!


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## Mallus (Jun 1, 2009)

Lanefan said:


> Or, more likely, after the second or third request for more unemployed lackeys the townsfolk are going to ask what happened to the first lot, and then run you out of town on a rail.



This is reasonable... yet I rarely see this point raised by the henchmen-advocates.


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## Lanefan (Jun 1, 2009)

Mallus said:


> This is reasonable... yet I rarely see this point raised by the henchmen-advocates.



Yet I *am* a hench-advocate!   Doesn't stop me feeling sorry for the poor sods...

Lanefan


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## S'mon (Jun 1, 2009)

Harlekin said:


> I am kind of amused by the constant mention of war dogs. I cannot imagine a dog that is trained well enough that it will follow a stranger into a dark alien smelling hole, attack with fiendish intelligence Undeads and Monsters and sacrifice itself for the life of the party. If I GM you would  need to raise the dog yourself and pass some checks on dog training if you ever wanted to expect such behavior.
> 
> Moreover, dogs and wolves are stated up as way too powerful in all editions of  D&D. If I was to pit even a Mastiff against a trained fighter in heavy armor with a decent weapon, I would expect to fighter to win 19 times out of 20.
> 
> I guess this goes to show that one groups smart strategy is another groups silly attempt at rules abuse.




1. Yes, guard dogs in D&D are more powerful IRL (or 0th & 1st level humans are weaker) - compared to 3e's commoner-chewing housecat the difference is small, though.  And movie-Conan's father was eaten by war dogs, remember!

2.  Real life fighting dogs really will indeed attack without fear.  Dunno about undead though; I use them mostly on goblins & such tasty morsels.  

3.  Training - indeed, that was my whole point.  The valuable dogs are the *ones you start play with*, the ones you (pre-game) had raised from cubs and spent months training to be your loyal companions.  Only the softest of old school GMs would let you go into a shop once play had begun and let you buy them off-the-rack fully trained and loyal.


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## Mallus (Jun 1, 2009)

Lanefan said:


> Yet I *am* a hench-advocate!



Then you, sir, are a notch above the rest!

(You know, I kinda miss henchmen. Right now I'm fondly recalling a 1e adventure where our 3-man party hired a dozen alcoholic bums to pose as caravan guards along w/us -- because the caravan driver wouldn't hire a measly 3 person squad. We bought them all 'uniforms', well, clean robes, armed them with sticks 'They're called jo-sticks, sir, you see the lot of them are _monks_', are proceeded to lead them into the inevitable ambush, where they died by nearly to the man. Ah, the good old days.)


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## S'mon (Jun 1, 2009)

Mallus said:


> Wait, you know how to use a combat dog if you purchase it w/your starting gold, but forget how to use one later? It's Vancian dog-ownership... awesome!




No...   You could buy replacements _if _ available, possibly a lengthy trip, but then you'd still have to train them to obey your commands.  There are no animal handling rules - in the Labyrinth Lord game I played, the GM was ok with my 2 dogs (50gp from starting money) but if I'd tried to raise an army of hundreds of hounds I expect he'd have given me short thrift.


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## S'mon (Jun 1, 2009)

Harlekin said:


> I guess this goes to show that one groups smart strategy is another groups silly attempt at rules abuse.




Well, don't make players play straight-3d6 OD&D Fighters with 2 hit points, then.   

My current Labyrinth Lord game, PCs all start with 5,001 XP (ca 3rd level) and max hp, and a good swashbuckling time is had by all.  They're realistically able to kill a guard dog, too!


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## GenghisDon (Jun 1, 2009)

Or be killed by guard dogs...


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## rogueattorney (Jun 1, 2009)

Mallus said:


> This is reasonable... yet I rarely see this point raised by the henchmen-advocates.




From earlier in the thread I said:


> I've found strength in numbers to be one of the keys of survival. Getting some henchmen/hirelings/goons/Charmed bugbears to tag along always helps. Note, I don't mean redshirts. Getting your cronies killed is a good way to stop being able to find cronies. I'd rather have a 4th level henchman who's been with me for years than have to hire a newbie every time out anyway.




While I'm not sure of other editions, both 1e and B/X have mechanisms to have henchman loyalty drop when treated badly and availability dry up when too many die off.


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## Korgoth (Jun 2, 2009)

Harlekin said:


> I am kind of amused by the constant mention of war dogs. I cannot imagine a dog that is trained well enough that it will follow a stranger into a dark alien smelling hole, attack with fiendish intelligence Undeads and Monsters and sacrifice itself for the life of the party. If I GM you would  need to raise the dog yourself and pass some checks on dog training if you ever wanted to expect such behavior.
> 
> Moreover, dogs and wolves are stated up as way too powerful in all editions of  D&D. If I was to pit even a Mastiff against a trained fighter in heavy armor with a decent weapon, I would expect to fighter to win 19 times out of 20.
> 
> I guess this goes to show that one groups smart strategy is another groups silly attempt at rules abuse.




Right... it's totally realistic to be a wizard or an elf who can shoot magical bolts at people, but not realistic to have a badazz dog.

It's fantasy. Badazz dogs are part of it, along with elfs and wizards.


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## AllisterH (Jun 2, 2009)

I'm curious....

You raised these dogs from pups, yet have no emotional connection to them so that you are quite willing to send them off to die?

Er.....that's cold guys...just plain cold..


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## Remathilis (Jun 2, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> Right... it's totally realistic to be a wizard or an elf who can shoot magical bolts at people, but not realistic to have a badazz dog.
> 
> It's fantasy. Badazz dogs are part of it, along with elfs and wizards.




And cat's that kill commoners?


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## S'mon (Jun 2, 2009)

AllisterH said:


> I'm curious....
> 
> You raised these dogs from pups, yet have no emotional connection to them so that you are quite willing to send them off to die?
> 
> Er.....that's cold guys...just plain cold..




No, why would they die?  They have 11 hp, around 3 times the hp of a starting PC.  They can take a lot of punishment and come out with tail wagging.

When I played recently, my Cleric PC wardog-handler stood behind his dogs while they attacked the troglodytes.  When one got wounded he cast his cure light wounds spell on it, and we all came out ok.

Of course the other PCs got slaughtered, but there y'go...


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## FriarRosing (Jun 2, 2009)

I've only started playing older edition D&D lately, and despite the magic user having only one hit point, so far all of the deaths have been poor travelers duped into adventuring with the party. Also, we're not so focused on combat--it's mainly tricks that the players use to get around obstacles of monstrous sort.

A good example came from our first Rules Cyclopedia game we played a few months back. The party decided to raid the lair of the Orc King in some nearby woods. They hid among the trees, just within range of the outdoor guards of the Orcs' cave lair, and after taking down a good handful of orcs with their bows, they invented the ingenious plan of arranging the orc bodies so that they led into the forest, in hopes that they would lead any other orcs away to investigate. Also they set the bodies on fire for some reason. The plan was so ridiculous that I essentially let it work, for the most part. They made some noise and hid as a few more orcs came out. One stayed to guard the cave while the others went off into the forest to see where the bodies led. The PCs ambushed the remaining Orc before heading into the cave.

In reality, it's the ridiculous plans that I enjoy more than combat. For me, rolling dice at one another isn't what D&D is about. It's about imagining crazy things that couldn't exist or happen in the real world. It's about imagination and the fantastic.


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## Hussar (Jun 4, 2009)

Mallus said:


> 'Bout the same.
> 
> The magic shops are markedly less amusing, however, because they don't involve heartlessly commoditizing the underemployed into disposable, multipurpose tools.




Well, not to stray into politics, but, how many real world governments have exploited this historically for populating their armed forces?


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## Grimstaff (Jun 4, 2009)

S'mon said:


> if I'd tried to raise an army of hundreds of hounds I expect he'd have given me short thrift.




I seem to remember a KotDT stroyline where the PCs dogs, left behind through some time travelling escape or something, evolved into a vicious horde that terrorized the countriside for miles around...


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## MichaelK (Jun 5, 2009)

Back when I used to run 2nd Edition AD&D I would generally start a game focused on roleplaying challenges, mystery adventures and city based sites at first and work the combat/dungeoneering aspects later on once they'd gained a few levels.

Plus one of my main campaigns was in Dark Sun where starting at 3rd level is canon. 

I'd tend to throw in a ridiculously good magic item (like a ring of wishes with one wish left) that could save them if things went horribly wrong, but they'd only get to use once.

Between those aspects I had very few PC deaths.


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## haakon1 (Jun 5, 2009)

ehren37 said:


> You hear ear seekers. Because any DM that wants you to use a boring SOP to do something as simple as opening a friggin door will quickly grow tired of it working.
> 
> 10 foot poles? Good for setting off 11 foot radius traps.
> 
> I really prefer a style where everyone agrees to dispense with the poking things with sticks and adventuring with 2 dozen red shirts in exchange for not putting screw job traps in the adventure. It feels more heroic both ways.




So your way of preventing "old school" paranoid gaming is to put in additional "screw jobs" (ear seekers) to stop PC's from trying to prevent "screw job" traps?

Anyhow, the topic of this thread is "surviving low-level old school D&D" as a player.  Not "how I currently like to play or DM" or "why I prefer non-old school games".


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## haakon1 (Jun 5, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> your hacking apart chests with axes and spending 20 minutes (real time) at every door, hallway, and interpass.
> 
> To quote Monty Python: "GET ON WITH IT!"




I recall the actual words of how we did this after a while:

DM: There's a door on the left.
Player: SOP and pop.
DM (roll, roll, roll):  You don't detect any traps, you don't hear anything, the paladin doesn't sense evil, and there doesn't seem to be a lock.
Player: We go in.
DM (assuming the players have weapons draw as appropriate for their usual actions): You see X.  Roll for initiative.

It doesn't take 20 minutes (in AD&D or 3e old school) once you know SOP is thief check for traps, have the paladin detect evil, etc.  Or you can play it slow cooked if you want to do it old school OD&D style and spell out the details, rather than rolling.


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## DM_Fiery_Fist (Jun 6, 2009)

I agree that beginning players were probably dead meat in some of those earlier modules.  It was just too easy to blunder into a trap or a monster without realizing the danger.  I have a feeling that most of these novice players were spared by their DMs (or misread the rules).  

While I've always felt like the risk of character death added another element of depth to the game, I've never been a big fan of running slaughterhouse dungeons.  I don't really believe that there's any wrong way to have fun, so I can understand the people who are into that, but I think that's one of the potential pitfalls of classic D&D people should be aware of.  I doubt that most people would enjoy crawling through a dungeon with a 10 foot pole and a pack of war dogs.  Then again, perhaps there's a reason it's called Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.  (I don't have any experience with Basic, so I'm not sure that it was any better)

I remember when I first started playing DnD as a kid, I had this idea that my thief character should always stay hidden.  He would always run straight to cover as soon as he got the first hint of a battle.  It ended up being really silly in the game but it kept him alive until high levels.  The other players were a lot better at roleplaying but unfortunately lost their characters a lot more often.  Probably would have been better if it had worked the other way around!


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