# Magic item granting blindsight?



## HellHound (Nov 7, 2003)

Is there a published magic item that provides blindsight?

If so, where is it?


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## Crothian (Nov 7, 2003)

Yes, I know I've read it somewhere.  Give me a weekend and a few research assistances and I'm sure I can find it.


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## Hypersmurf (Nov 7, 2003)

Read this thread.

-Hyp.


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## Pax (Nov 7, 2003)

"Blindfold of True Darkness", from Arms&Equipment.  Costs 9,000gp, occupies the lens/mask slot.  Renders you blind, but, give syou blindsight (to 30' IIRC).


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## Ridley's Cohort (Nov 7, 2003)

I doubt there are other any rules in D&D that I despise half as much as the Blindsight rules.  The rules are vague and ripe for abuse.


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## Hypersmurf (Nov 7, 2003)

Pax said:
			
		

> (to 30' IIRC).




Sixty feet.

And if you'd _bothered_ to read the thread I linked above, you'd have _known_ that.

Hmmph.

-Hyp.


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## Pax (Nov 7, 2003)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> I doubt there are other any rules in D&D that I despise half as much as the Blindsight rules.  The rules are vague and ripe for abuse.




I find nothign unbalanced or vague about them.  What do YOU find unbalanced or vague ... ?


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## Ridley's Cohort (Nov 7, 2003)

Pax said:
			
		

> I find nothign unbalanced or vague about them.  What do YOU find unbalanced or vague ... ?




The Spot and Listen issue is particularly bad.  Blindsense "usually" does not require a roll.  That is useless guidance.  Do we seriously believe a bat can see a rogue hiding behind a bush or a curtain better than a human relying on normal sight?  How more vanilla do we get than that?

So what about Blindsight and Spot rolls?  Blindsense is explicitly designated as a "lesser ability".  So do you need to roll or not?

Blindsight is too vaguely written.  It should be ditched for an array of distinct sensory modes that can be coherently adjudicated: echolocation, tremorsense, scent, etc.  It would not be difficult to make up more.


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## sithramir (Nov 7, 2003)

Whoever doesn't think this is insane when comparing it to the price of something that grants mere darkvision has no clue of balance.

The cost if you used the actual rules would by caster lvl X spell lvl X 2000 and then multiplied based on the duration of that lvl spell. Blindsight is a 4th lvl spell called from Magic of Faerun its 7X4X2000=56000*2 because it lasts 1hr/lvl so therefore 112000gp. 

   Since you can get it for 9k and its range is 60 feet instead of 30 feet like the spell gives its quite insane. 

  I'm not going into the idea of how it prevents ANYTHING from sneaking up on you and the limitations aren't many compared to the bonus's. But by the rules its cost is a bit off.


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## Pax (Nov 8, 2003)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> The Spot and Listen issue is particularly bad.  Blindsense "usually" does not require a roll.  That is useless guidance.  Do we seriously believe a bat can see a rogue hiding behind a bush or a curtain better than a human relying on normal sight?  How more vanilla do we get than that?




Yes, the bat will "see" the hiding rogue better than a human could, using their Mod/1 Mark/1 eyeballs.  How or why, you ask?  Simple: to the bat, that bush is a nonsolid; it's translucent to their sonar, and produces a lot of scatter.  The rogue hiding BEHIND it, however, does not; he's a nice, solid object.

So the bat "Sees" a nice, solid-object creature, surounded by the sonar scatter of what is, to it, a nonsolid obstruction.  Rather like modern thermal-imaging systems can see people walking around on the other side of a wall; blindsight won'tlet you know if the Rogue is wearing shorts or long pants, but, it WILL let you know he's there.



			
				sithramir said:
			
		

> Whoever doesn't think this is insane when comparing it to the price of something that grants mere darkvision has no clue of balance.




Arms and Equipment predates 3.5E, for one.

And the blindfold isn't mimicking the spell ... or at least, it doesn't HAVE to work that way.  It's probably based on the *feat* "blindsight", from MotW.  And roughly 10K-ish for a single feat isn't too far off.


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## Pax (Nov 8, 2003)

Sithramir, I almost forgot ... you CAN still sneak up on someone with blindsight: blindsight doesn't "see" *incorporeal* beings.  At all.


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## Snipehunt (Nov 9, 2003)

Pax said:
			
		

> So the bat "Sees" a nice, solid-object creature, surounded by the sonar scatter of what is, to it, a nonsolid obstruction.  Rather like modern thermal-imaging systems can see people walking around on the other side of a wall; blindsight won'tlet you know if the Rogue is wearing shorts or long pants, but, it WILL let you know he's there.




Thermal Imaging can't "see" people walking behind walls - you only can tell that there is a heat source behind the wall, and not even that most of the time.  Thermal imagers can't even see through glass, glass has it's own thermal signature.  Interesting, huh?

Fortunately, blindsense isn't limited by what actually happens.


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## Pax (Nov 9, 2003)

Snipehunt said:
			
		

> Thermal Imaging can't "see" people walking behind walls - you only can tell that there is a heat source behind the wall, and not even that most of the time.  Thermal imagers can't even see through glass, glass has it's own thermal signature.  Interesting, huh?




  Um, dude ... yes, thermal imagers CAN see through walls and glass.  The military-grade stuff, anyway.  You won't see facial features, but, you _will_ see arms/legs/head/center-of-mass.  Heck, with the right ones -- meaning, sufficiently cutting-edge MilSpec gear -- you can see the (faint) outlines of furniture in rooms on the other side of modern walls.

  Just 'cause you've only seen/played with the civvie stuff, doesn't mean that the best examples out there are similarly limited. ^_^


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