# Barbarian is up!!!



## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

Here it is. Printing it out now...

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page


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## ppaladin123 (Oct 6, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> Here it is. Printing it out now...
> 
> Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page




Curses! Ninja'ed!


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## ppaladin123 (Oct 6, 2008)

About races:

"Goliaths are ideal rageblood barbarians.
Dragonborn make excellent thaneborn barbarians. Half-orcs are often barbarians but don’t favor either
of the two types"

This suggests that Goliaths are +2 Strength +2 Constitution and Half-Orcs are
+2 Strength +2 something other that Constitution.


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 6, 2008)

THats one hell of a piece of artwork on the 2nd page there. 

And it's a striker. 

Sweet.


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 6, 2008)

And they are Strikers, love it when I am right........
.........it only happens so rarely!

BUT WTF!?!? Evocations. For a Barbarian? that makes no sense. Ahh well doesn't effect the price of fish. Just don't think evoker and fireballs and lightening bolts 

EDIT: and I reckon Ari with his 1/2 orcs +2 STR & CHA _edit edit: I meant wis, d'oh_ might be pretty similar to WotC's efforts.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

"Thaneblood". Wonder what the hell that is (aside from the other build, obviously).


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## mattdm (Oct 6, 2008)

ppaladin123 said:


> This suggests that Goliaths are +2 Strength +2 Constitution and Half-Orcs are
> +2 Strength +2 something other that Constitution.




Ooh, I hope it is wisdom. I really liked that idea from the house rules forum here.


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## Fallen Seraph (Oct 6, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> BUT WTF!?!? Evocations. For a Barbarian? that makes no sense. Ahh well doesn't effect the price of fish. Just don't think evoker and fireballs and lightening bolts



Well I imagine it more evoking the "primal spirits" and not so much fireballs and lightning bolts, for what they were going for with the name.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

WAIT A FREAKIN' SECOND.

Look at "Rage Strike". 

Requirement: You must be raging and have at least one unused rage power. 

Which means you can't even use it until 5th level, because in order to "Rage", you must use a daily power, and still have a daily power left over.


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## s0rn (Oct 6, 2008)

Still, on first glance the class looks real nice; the damage output seems awesome.  I wonder if any of my players will want to try out a barbarian?


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2008)

Wow. Some of those high-level rages are just... Wow. 

To say nothing of being automatic minion killers...


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## ppaladin123 (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> WAIT A FREAKIN' SECOND.
> 
> Look at "Rage Strike".
> 
> ...





Yeah.  There would be no reason to use it though anyway...the level one rages are all standard actions that do 3[W] +Str damage and half on a miss + confer some extra ability. Why use "Rage Strike" at all then?


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 6, 2008)

Man, Thunder Hawk Rage is _brutal_!  Knock an adjacent enemy prone each turn as a free action, with no apparent save?  That definitely seems like it needs an attack roll at least.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

ppaladin123 said:


> Yeah.  There would be no reason to use it though anyway...the level one rages are all standard actions that do 3[W] +Str damage and half on a miss + confer some extra ability. Why use "Rage Strike" at all then?



Because Rage Strike is an at-will ability. Here's how it's supposed to go down.

Round X: Use daily rage power, make the hit. You have a benefit going.
Round Y: Use Rage Strike to do mondo damage each round. 
Round Z: Profit.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 6, 2008)

ppaladin123 said:


> Yeah.  There would be no reason to use it though anyway...the level one rages are all standard actions that do 3[W] +Str damage and half on a miss + confer some extra ability. Why use "Rage Strike" at all then?




Most of the higher level rages seem to do less damage than Rage Strike confers.


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## mattdm (Oct 6, 2008)

I like the Rampage class feature — crits are extra-cool for barbarians.

My first impression of the Rage Strike feature (use up one of your dailies for a kinda flavorless attack that does a lot of damage) is kinda negative. I guess it gives you something to do if you 1) know the adventuring day is drawing to an end and 2) you have a lot of dailies left and 3) the encounter is almost over so the rest-of-the-encounter effects of the regular daily powers are less useful.

Raging in general is pretty good, though — I like the various options rather than one-rage-fits-all.

And sheesh, the at-will powers are awesome, and made _even better_ while raging.

I wonder if the multiclass feat for barbarian will give some ability to rage. It's kinda a shame they haven't included those in these playtest articles.


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## Asmor (Oct 6, 2008)

I want to play a barbarian now.

Well, actually, I want to find a game to play in.

But when I do, I want to play a barbarian...

Hella cool.


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## Shroomy (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> WAIT A FREAKIN' SECOND.
> 
> Look at "Rage Strike".
> 
> ...




Nope, it took me a couple of readings, but it appears that Rage Strike is poorly worded.  You have to have a daily power available for rage strike to work.  Basically, you expend a daily power, you gain rage strike until the rage ends.


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## catsclaw227 (Oct 6, 2008)

Well, the purpose of this preview of the Barbarian is so that everyone can beat it up and post about it's good and bad.  I just hope that WOTC takes care and keeps it's eyes on all the Barbarian threads that will pop up online. 

How much time do you think they have to make tweaks before they cross the point of no return?


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

With regards to Frost Wolf's Rage, the effect says "Before the attack, the target can make a melee basic attack against you. If it does, you do 1[w] more cold damage". 

I wonder if the target understands that if they make the attack, you do more damage.


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## Asmor (Oct 6, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Nope, it took me a couple of readings, but it appears that Rage Strike is poorly worded.  You have to have a daily power available for rage strike to work.  Basically, you expend a daily power, you gain rage strike until the rage ends.




Uhh.... No. The earlier interpretations are correct. Rage strike burns unused rages for powerful attacks.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 6, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Nope, it took me a couple of readings, but it appears that Rage Strike is poorly worded.  You have to have a daily power available for rage strike to work.  Basically, you expend a daily power, you gain rage strike until the rage ends.




You spend an unused rage to do the listed damage while already raging.  I didn't find it ambiguously worded at all.

What I did find ambiguous was the benefit, until I compared the damages that higher level rages do.  The 29th level Rages do 5[W] and 6[W], but Rage Strike deals 9[W] damage when you spend a 29th level rage.  It's a trade-off of effect for damage.


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## chaotix42 (Oct 6, 2008)

Rage Strike looks cool for those times when you've already entered a rage whose benefits you enjoy and don't want to replace by entering a new rage. 

Also, Rage Strike does more damage than the various Daily rages do, pretty much.

I find it kinda odd that the two 25th lvl Daily rages do 7[W] and the two 29th lvl ones do 5[W] and 6[W]. Maybe the extra effects balance it out, but it seems weird.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Look at "Rage Strike".




I've been stuck there since I downloaded this. I don't know what the hell it means... Does it mean that if I use Rage Strike, I lose my daily?


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## chaotix42 (Oct 6, 2008)

^^^ Yup.


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## ppaladin123 (Oct 6, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Nope, it took me a couple of readings, but it appears that Rage Strike is poorly worded.  You have to have a daily power available for rage strike to work.  Basically, you expend a daily power, you gain rage strike until the rage ends.




So you are in a rage...and you expend a different rage to do lots of extra damage at-will during that rage. You still need at least two rages to benefit though so you'd need to be level 5 (since you get one rage at level 1 and another at level 5). But it makes sense that it gives you the extra damage for the entire encounter...otherwise you blow an extra rage for one-hit.


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## Shroomy (Oct 6, 2008)

Oops, I guess you guys are right.


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## mattdm (Oct 6, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Nope, it took me a couple of readings, but it appears that Rage Strike is poorly worded.  You have to have a daily power available for rage strike to work.  Basically, you expend a daily power, you gain rage strike until the rage ends.




Hmmm — that might make it worthwhile. But, it doesn't seem to say that the effect is until the rage ends. It's just one attack.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> I've been stuck there since I downloaded this. I don't know what the hell it means... Does it mean that if I use Rage Strike, I lose my daily?



It appears so.

Although, jeez. The Barbarian looks like he's going to go through Daily powers like no one's business. Talk about the 15 minute work day.


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## ppaladin123 (Oct 6, 2008)

> Great Stomp Barbarian Utility 16
> As you slam your foot into the ground, primal energy pours through you, buckling the ground beneath you with its power.
> Daily ✦ Primal
> Minor Action Close burst 5
> Effect: Each square in the burst becomes difficult terrain until the end of your next turn.




That's a power I thought of when I was musing about martial controllers. It seems thematically appropriate for a barbarian but not mechanically appropriate for a striker (especially one that has to charge across that terrain to do damage!).


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 6, 2008)

ppaladin123 said:


> But it makes sense that it gives you the extra damage for the entire encounter...otherwise you blow an extra rage for one-hit.




You get it for one hit, per the power write-up.  It's really of limited benefit until you get 9th level dailies, and then the damage from Rage Strike starts to exceed the damage of the Daily by a fair bit (the exception being 25th, where it's only +1[W]).


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Wow. Some of those high-level rages are just... Wow




Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Splatterlord. 



			
				Rechan said:
			
		

> I wonder if the target understands that if they make the attack, you do more damage.




I love the RP in an ability like this.

"Okay, you get a free shot. I'm here, I'm open, come on. Hit me. Hit me. HIT ME!" *whiff* "Aww, man, you should have hit me..."

It gets a little absurd with the 20th level Frenzied Berserker's Final Confrontation, which can continue a cycle of "hit me, now I  hit you" for a long time. That might be a problem, because it means it's "get a soda" time for the rest of the players. 



			
				Shroomy said:
			
		

> Nope, it took me a couple of readings, but it appears that Rage Strike is poorly worded. You have to have a daily power available for rage strike to work. Basically, you expend a daily power, you gain rage strike until the rage ends.




Bzzt.

At 1st level, it is useless.

"Your Daily Attack powers are known as Rages"

Rage Strike requirement: "You must be raging and have at least one unused rage power."

So at level 1, with one daily ability, you can go into a rage, but you won't have any more rages to use your Rage Strike with. And since you need to use a daily to enter rage before you can use a daily to Rage Strike...yeah,  you need at least two dailies.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

ppaladin123 said:


> That's a power I thought of when I was musing about martial controllers.



Stomping your foot and turning the ground into difficult terrain doesn't sound very "martial" to me.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I love the RP in an ability like this.
> 
> "Okay, you get a free shot. I'm here, I'm open, come on. Hit me. Hit me. HIT ME!" *whiff* "Aww, man, you should have hit me..."



The text says "If the target makes the attack", you get the benefit.

I don't read "Make" as "hits with the attack". Merely, if they attacked at all. So if they miss, you still get it.



> It gets a little absurd with the 20th level Frenzied Berserker's Final Confrontation



While I actually loved the idea of it...



> That might be a problem, because it means it's "get a soda" time for the rest of the players.



This occurred to me too. Which does suck.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

I think rage strike is neat in concept, but kinda dumb at 1st level. So do I get Rage Strike as 1 At-Will and I pick one more At-Will like the Warlock? If so, that sucks because I have one less At-Will then everyone else.


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## chaotix42 (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> It gets a little absurd with the 20th level Frenzied Berserker's Final Confrontation, which can continue a cycle of "hit me, now I hit you" for a long time. That might be a problem, because it means it's "get a soda" time for the rest of the players.




I actually imagine that the barbarian going toe-to-toe, blow-for-blow with something like a dragon or giant would be an experience the whole group could enjoy. I know my PCs would be cheering the Barb on, at least.


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## That One Guy (Oct 6, 2008)

So, first impression... barbarian'll be a great dip into class... still. I also like it a lot. A lot a lot. I liked the variants in 3.x where barbarians were more linked to spirits etc. So... that is a flavour I can dig.

Mechanics? Yes please, and more yes please. Half-elf brutal rogue MC barbarian. Wow. A rogue who breaks stealth with a charge. CRAZY. The MC could easily go the other way too. Also, all of those powers look mighty pretty. A bit too strong? Perhaps. But... I mean... that's the barbarian's thing, right? Go crazy. Rip things apart. I still like cold rage/whirling frenzy barbarians... and I think this works really well for that.

Rage Strike... at first I thought, "Meh." Then "Ew." Then "Ohhh... cool." It's like an uber-concentrated rage into one single strike. How is that not barbarian-tastic? It's for when one is outnumbered and going to die and dealing damage is a must. So rad.







Rechan said:


> "Thaneblood". Wonder what the hell that is (aside from the other build, obviously).



I think thane is a... google search away! "1*:* a free retainer of an Anglo-Saxon lord       ; _especially_ *:* one resembling a feudal baron by holding lands of and performing military service for the king2*:* a Scottish feudal lord" ...I rather like the implications of that in relationship to how my mind associates feudal societies with honour and dragonborn w/ honour.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> I think rage strike is neat in concept, but kinda dumb at 1st level. So do I get Rage Strike as 1 At-Will and I pick one more At-Will like the Warlock? If so, that sucks because I have one less At-Will then everyone else.




Class Features: 
All Barbarians know _Rage Strike_, usable only during a rage. 

Your Rageblood Vigor class feature grants you the use of the _swift charge_ power.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 6, 2008)

So I thought I'd write through my understanding of Rage Strike, in case I've got it totally backwards.

First off, you need to be raging.  Basically, Rages are stances but with a different keyword.  Like a Stance, you use a Rage and are considered raging.

Next, you need to have additional unused Rages (aka Barbarian Daily powers), per the prequisites.  As Rechan pointed out, you can't even use Rage Strike until 5th level.

Now, when you choose to use Rage Strike, the first thing you have to do is burn a Rage, per the effect.  Now, I guess it's ambiguous as to whether you get the benefit of the Daily when you "expend a Rage."  My guess is that the intention is no, but I could very well be wrong here.

The reason I think the intention is not to gain the effect of the Daily is so that you can continue using your Dailies but keep the effect of your current Rage.  Fighter Stances are often Utilities, so that a Fighter can use most of his attacks with the Stance.  Since the Rages are Daily abilities, if you choose the one you want, you kind of get screwed using your Dailies... except for with Rage Strike.

Finally, resolve the attack, with the damage based on the expended Rage.  Note this damage is almost always higher than the damage the Rage would have normally done.  The exception is 1st level, in which it is the same.


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## Asmor (Oct 6, 2008)

You guys are kind of missing the point of rage strike. Barb dailies are different from most other dailies we've seen; they're not fire-and-forget effects, they last the entire fight. It also means that you're wasting a lot of potential if you use a second rage in an encounter.

Rage Strike gives the barb the same alpha strike capabilities that every other class enjoys.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

Hey Guys. Wasn't there supposed to be a feat in this playtest for "Non-martial mutli-classers"? 

Also, I'm sad there's no MC feat.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> The text says "If the target makes the attack", you get the benefit.
> 
> I don't read "Make" as "hits with the attack". Merely, if they attacked at all. So if they miss, you still get it.




No, I read it that way too.

"You should've hit me" would then be followed by an axe to the face. It's a nifty way for a Barbarian to try that whole "if you don't kill me first, you're dead, you know that?" thing. Which is a cool bit of combat RP.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> "Thaneblood". Wonder what the hell that is (aside from the other build, obviously).




The article mentioned Charisma as a tertiary ability, especially for some other powers.  My guess is it's basically an Intimidating Barbarian, versus a Meat-Shield Barbarian.  That also jives with the Dragonborn comment about making good thaneborns barbs.

It also suggests that Half-Orc's do not get Charisma (as well as Con) as a bonus stat, since they don't favor a type.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:


> The reason I think the intention is not to gain the effect of the Daily is so that you can continue using your Dailies but keep the effect of your current Rage.  Fighter Stances are often Utilities, so that a Fighter can use most of his attacks with the Stance.  Since the Rages are Daily abilities, if you choose the one you want, you kind of get screwed using your Dailies... except for with Rage Strike.



Yes, but then you're using all your dailies. 

So unless you're in the Big Boss Fight and don't plan on entering another encounter for the day, you're shootin' your wad early.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> With regards to Frost Wolf's Rage, the effect says "Before the attack, the target can make a melee basic attack against you. If it does, you do 1[w] more cold damage".
> 
> I wonder if the target understands that if they make the attack, you do more damage.




If it was used on your PC would you want to know???

What effect would that have on the desission


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> If it was used on your PC would you want to know???
> 
> What effect would that have on the desission



I want to know because I'm usually the DM.  

But to answer the question, smarter opponents (or less desperate opponents) might choose not to.


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## Benimoto (Oct 6, 2008)

So why are their at-wills just plain better than almost ever other classes at-wills?  You've got howling strike, which does the most damage of any at-will.  Then you've got Pressing Strike, which is the best mobility at-will so far and you get to push things, and do extra damage while raging.  And then there's Recuperating Strike, which is one of the best temporary HP granting at-wills.

I don't know.  It might work out and not be a problem, but my power-creep spidey-sense is tingling.


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## Asmor (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Yes, but then you're using all your dailies.
> 
> So unless you're in the Big Boss Fight and don't plan on entering another encounter for the day, you're shootin' your wad early.




Precisely. But with every other class, they can pile on their dailies as much as they want. For the barbarian, it's really not very efficient to use more than one daily per encounter because a major part of the daily is the ongoing effects which would then be overwritten. Thus, rage strike gives the barbarian the same alpha-strike option that every other class has.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Yes, but then you're using all your dailies.
> 
> So unless you're in the Big Boss Fight and don't plan on entering another encounter for the day, you're shootin' your wad early.




I'm not sure it's very different than any other class blowing their wad, especially at lower levels.  I can't speak to everyone, but I know personally I tend to horde my Dailies until absolutely necessary.  I don't see it being too terribly different with the Barbarian.  The only difference is that the Barbarian doesn't get screwed for choosing a rage early on, and then not being able to use more dailies.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2008)

> If it was used on your PC would you want to know???




Well, I would think the fact that you're making an attack that you normally wouldn't be able to make should raise a red flag or two.

"Okay, it's the orc barbarian's turn. You can make an attack against him if you want."

".....why?"


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

You know. The Barbarian being all about channeling primal spirits and all that stuff, it really, _really_ makes me want to play a very prim and proper scholar of nature spirits, or maybe a hippy-dippy sort of fellow, who when the fight starts, takes off his glasses, puts them in his pocket, and grows six inches taller and starts wailing away. 

A very Bruce Banner/Hulk situation.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Yes, but then you're using all your dailies.




That's what I don't like. I think rage strike should be reliable. I'd be really annoyed if I burned two dailies and I missed even if I get the half damage.

I must say though, the barbarian is awesome. I wish they had the same flavor in all of the classes powers. Plus, the fact that he's a striker is just doubly awesome. Aside from a few minor bits, I REALLY dig this class. Very cool.

For those who have the Advanced Player's Guide, are they similar at all?


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

Benimoto said:


> So why are their at-wills just plain better than almost ever other classes at-wills?  You've got howling strike, which does the most damage of any at-will.  Then you've got Pressing Strike, which is the best mobility at-will so far and you get to push things, and do extra damage while raging.  And then there's Recuperating Strike, which is one of the best temporary HP granting at-wills.



Other classes have the "best" in other regards.

Righteous Brand is the best buff. 
Sacred Flame grants a saving throw (not too shabby, since saving throws end conditions). 
Piercing Strike is one of the few melee attacks that target a defense. 
Rangers have an at-will for TWO ATTACKS. No one else has that.

The only way that Recuperating Strike is at all better than Bolstering strike is that it grants more temp HP if the barb used a daily. Which is a bit of an investment to beef up your at will.

With regards to Howling Strike: look at the other striker classes. Warlock, Ranger AND Rogue all get extra damage die. Barbs don't.


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## Almacov (Oct 6, 2008)

If there's one thing that worries me here it's that Rogues and Rangers multiclassing into Barbarian will be doing inappropriate damage.
In this iteration of the Barbarian they've factored the "striker bonus" that one would normally get from Sneak Attack or Hunter's Quarry into the damage the powers deal themselves from the looks of it, rather than relegating it to a secondary ability. This may mean that a rogue or ranger having multiclassed into barbarian is effectively dealing an extra die of damage above the norm most of the time.

Either that, or I've misinterpreted the mechanics by skimming too quickly.

EDIT: On second glance, that was just my gut feeling looking at the At-Will Powers, which are largely irrelevant in regards to multiclassing. Only half-elves to worry about there, and it's not a worry worth having by my reckoning.
Thunder Hawk Rage definitely does need a nerf though.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I want to know because I'm usually the DM.
> 
> But to answer the question, smarter opponents (or less desperate opponents) might choose not to.




maybe..if you are a gambler...and the barbarian has been bloodied for more then a round...then it come down to 'CAN I DROP HIM????'


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## mach1.9pants (Oct 6, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> For those who have the Advanced Player's Guide, are they similar at all?



nope, they are defenders for a start.


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## That One Guy (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Hey Guys. Wasn't there supposed to be a feat in this playtest for "Non-martial mutli-classers"?
> 
> Also, I'm sad there's no MC feat.



Nope. That sort of feat is supposed to be in the martial power book. Although, a barb MC feat would've been sweet.


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Oct 6, 2008)

Initial thoughts:

Maybe I've missed something, but I can't see anything stopping the Barbarian from taking the heavy armour and shield feats. Maybe it's my inner minimaxer, but they'd be the first feats I'd take. I think this is against the theme of the lightly armoured/high hit point striker, but when theme and optimization meet, theme is often the loser.

Doesn't even start with _simple _ranged proficiency. Against ranged flying enemies, that's gonna hurt!

Interesting to see that Defender-level hit points comes with Defender-level trained skills.


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## Mad Mac (Oct 6, 2008)

Looks like a very fun class. High HPs and surges for a striker, with tons of self healing, but not especially mobile, and AC/Reflex will likely be the worst of the party. Light Armor, Dex or Int as a tertiary stat at best, no sheild, and powers that drop defense or encourage enemies to hit them...heh. 

  Doesn't have a Quarry/Curse type mechanic like other strikers, but can still do high damage with the strong at-will powers, Rage Strike, and stances. It seems like a fair trade-off for pure barbarians, but it makes me wonder if it makes nabbing Barbarian powers through multiclassing too useful. Considering multiclassing already lets you nab stuff like Wizard dalies though, it's probably not out of line. 

  Bottom line though, the class just looks insanely fun to play. Very different from the Fighter or a melee ranger, but in a good way. Now I'm just really looking forward to seeing the leaderish build...we haven't seen a Striker/Leader yet in any of the existing classes.



> Maybe I've missed something, but I can't see anything stopping the Barbarian from taking the heavy armour and shield feats.




  That does worry a bit as well. Not so much the shield thing,  but armor feats do seem like a no brainer for the class.


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## That One Guy (Oct 6, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:


> The article mentioned Charisma as a tertiary ability, especially for some other powers.  My guess is it's basically an Intimidating Barbarian, versus a Meat-Shield Barbarian.  That also jives with the Dragonborn comment about making good thaneborns barbs.
> 
> It also suggests that Half-Orc's do not get Charisma (as well as Con) as a bonus stat, since they don't favor a type.



Well, going w/ the thaneborn thing and the leader aspects... I could see that. A buffing/debuffing rallying cry thing. I think the [displayed] Barb's crazy aoe-tastic  close-range damage makes him kind of defenderlike (which is what he should be) but still a striker. He's sticky in a way that if one doesn't go after him - he will rip his enemies apart, and eat them.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 6, 2008)

Scholar & Brutalman said:


> Interesting to see that Defender-level hit points comes with Defender-level trained skills.




yeaa...why does it look more defenderish...power creep???


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## Drakhar (Oct 6, 2008)

Scholar & Brutalman said:


> Initial thoughts:
> 
> Maybe I've missed something, but I can't see anything stopping the Barbarian from taking the heavy armour and shield feats. Maybe it's my inner minimaxer, but they'd be the first feats I'd take. I think this is against the theme of the lightly armoured/high hit point striker, but when theme and optimization meet, theme is often the loser.
> 
> ...




Thrown weapons are a Barbs friend


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

Almacov said:


> If there's one thing that worries me here it's that Rogues and Rangers multiclassing into Barbarian will be doing inappropriate damage.



Well, that's possible if a rogue or a ranger multi-d into one another's respective classes. A ranger who gets a free extra +2d6 damage with CA once an encounter is pretty damn sweet. 

I also don't see any particular power that's screaming for the ranger or rogue to take (considering that they can't get to the At-Wills until they paragon multi-class). The only encounter power, for instance, that does buckets of damage outside of others is Avalanche strike. The drawback being that the Rogue or ranger gets a -4 to AC for a round, something that rogues and rangers would find a very dangerous situation to be in, what with their fewer HP.


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Oct 6, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> Thrown weapons are a Barbs friend




Good point, for some silly reason I'd been counting them in ranged proficiency.


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## Almacov (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Well, that's possible if a rogue or a ranger multi-d into one another's respective classes. A ranger who gets a free extra +2d6 damage with CA once an encounter is pretty damn sweet.
> 
> I also don't see any particular power that's screaming for the ranger or rogue to take (considering that they can't get to the At-Wills until they paragon multi-class). The only encounter power, for instance, that does buckets of damage outside of others is Avalanche strike. The drawback being that the Rogue or ranger gets a -4 to AC for a round, something that rogues and rangers would find a very dangerous situation to be in, what with their fewer HP.



Yeah, I jumped a bit too fast on that one. I'm blaming lack of sleep. 

Overall I love the feel of the class from the looks of it, though some of the higher level stuff may indeed require some further looking into. (An attack bonus equal to the number of enemies the barbarian can see???)
Can't wait to get a feel for the rest of that book. =)

[Actually, I'm really looking forward to seeing what a Barbarian/Nature Warrior multiclass looks like. ; ) ]


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## That One Guy (Oct 6, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> yeaa...why does it look more defenderish...power creep???



I don't think so. It is a striker who dips into defender (with this build). Sort of like a fighter dipping into striker w/ some methods. Or swordmage dipping into controller. Or cleric dipping into... whatever it wants? Oruhh... Paladin into leader. It's actually a consistency. 

I'm interested in some play testing. Somebody get on it!


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## ppaladin123 (Oct 6, 2008)

I'd also like to add that the art is really impressive in this article. I love the Tiefling barbarian...even if I can't see anyone ever playing one.


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## Drakhar (Oct 6, 2008)

ppaladin123 said:


> I'd also like to add that the art is really impressive in this article. I love the Tiefling barbarian...even if I can't see anyone ever playing one.




Depending on the Cha build for Barbs I think a Tiefling could make a very very interesting one, especially with the great synergy with Infernal Wrath.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 6, 2008)

Let me say, this class does look like a lot of fun to play. As a person playing a "barbarian" right now using the fighter class, I could see a lot of potential for a switch over.

As far as balance goes, at first I was in the camp that the barbarian is the all offense, no defense striker. He does crazy damage compared to the other strikers, but he has no AC with his light armor and no dex or int.

But then someone pointed out that he's just one armor feat away from a decent AC, with the HP of a defender and the damage of a striker.

I can't see how that's balanced honestly.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 6, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> Depending on the Cha build for Barbs I think a Tiefling could make a very very interesting one, especially with the great synergy with Infernal Wrath.




from what I understand it's hella funny...or was that eldritch rain???


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## Drakhar (Oct 6, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> Let me say, this class does look like a lot of fun to play. As a person playing a "barbarian" right now using the fighter class, I could see a lot of potential for a switch over.
> 
> As far as balance goes, at first I was in the camp that the barbarian is the all offense, no defense striker. He does crazy damage compared to the other strikers, but he has no AC with his light armor and no dex or int.
> 
> ...




It's important to remember that the other strikers can get the same armor with a feat that a barb can, the only reason it's not optimal to do so is because they all use Int/Dex, although a TWF Ranger could go the Heavy armor route I suppose easily enough.



JVisgaitis said:


> I think rage strike is neat in concept, but kinda dumb at 1st level. So do I get Rage Strike as 1 At-Will and I pick one more At-Will like the Warlock? If so, that sucks because I have one less At-Will then everyone else.




Rage Strike is a Barbarian Feature At-will, not a Barbarian Attack 1, so you actually have 3 at-wills but only 2 are actually usable at will.


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## That One Guy (Oct 6, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> Let me say, this class does look like a lot of fun to play. As a person playing a "barbarian" right now using the fighter class, I could see a lot of potential for a switch over.
> 
> As far as balance goes, at first I was in the camp that the barbarian is the all offense, no defense striker. He does crazy damage compared to the other strikers, but he has no AC with his light armor and no dex or int.
> 
> ...



Well it's not out, yet. I think people need to playtest/number crunch. Also, I think if wearing Heavy armor prevented them from raging or using the free action charge thingy it'd be a decent nerf. It would also preclude the Rage Strike ability. What say ye?


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## Stalker0 (Oct 6, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> It's important to remember that the other strikers can get the same armor with a feat that a barb can, the only reason it's not optimal to do so is because they all use Int/Dex.




But they don't get the HP that the barb does, they don't get the extra temp thing, and they don't do as much damage.


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## Zsig (Oct 6, 2008)

As I said on the other forum, I'm a bit disappointed with Rage Strike.

I think it's bad design when you make somthing that people won't get to use up until they're lvl 5 (or more).

I mean, there should be support to all levels of gameplay. And this feature looks... wrong.

EDIT:
To me it should work somewhat like this:

Rage Strike
bla bla bla

Requirement: You must be raging.
Attack: Str vs. AC
Hit: You deal damage based on the rage you're currently "using" [Or whatever term they think it's appropriate]
1st level 2[W]+str
5th level 3[W]+str
...
25th level 5[W]+str
29th level 6[W]|+str

[Always 1[W] less than the "standard" higher damage for a daily of that level]

At first level it gets slightly better than Howling Strike... maybe unnecessarily... anyways, up to them to balance, I'm just pointing that the way it is right now, it looks pretty dumb.


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## Gloombunny (Oct 6, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with Rage Strike.  It's a necessary patch given the way the barbarian dailies work.

See, any other class can just use daily after daily if they think the fight is important enough for it.  A barbarian who does that is is losing out on much of the strength of his dailies, because all of them have a buff that lasts the entire encounter but can't be combined with the other dailies' buffs.  Rage Strike makes up for that by letting him trade the buffing and secondary effects of a daily for more damage.  (Unless you expend a level 1 daily.  Rage Strike should do more than 3[W] on a level 1 daily; hopefully that'll get fixed before the book comes out.)

Yes, you can't use it until level 5.  That's because Rage Strike is there to solve a specific problem, and that problem doesn't exist until level 5.


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## That One Guy (Oct 6, 2008)

Gloombunny said:


> There's nothing wrong with Rage Strike.  It's a necessary patch given the way the barbarian dailies work.
> 
> See, any other class can just use daily after daily if they think the fight is important enough for it.  A barbarian who does that is is losing out on much of the strength of his dailies, because all of them have a buff that lasts the entire encounter but can't be combined with the other dailies' buffs.  Rage Strike makes up for that by letting him trade the buffing and secondary effects of a daily for more damage.  (Unless you expend a level 1 daily.  Rage Strike should do more than 3[W] on a level 1 daily; hopefully that'll get fixed before the book comes out.)
> 
> Yes, you can't use it until level 5.  That's because Rage Strike is there to solve a specific problem, and that problem doesn't exist until level 5.



I concur with the Bunny.


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## Zsig (Oct 6, 2008)

Gloombunny said:


> Yes, you can't use it until level 5.  That's because Rage Strike is there to solve a specific problem, and that problem doesn't exist until level 5.




That's actually a very good point.


Even though the fighter and some other classes also got dailies that works somewhat on a similar way (stances), and they don't have that kind of treatment.

EDIT: Hum, yeah, maybe that other perspective might make me change my mind...


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## ppaladin123 (Oct 6, 2008)

That it took us all this time debating it to figure out what it actually does suggests that, while there might not be anything wrong with it mechanically, rage strike is not a clearly worded/presented power. It could use some revisions on that front.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2008)

> Yes, you can't use it until level 5. That's because Rage Strike is there to solve a specific problem, and that problem doesn't exist until level 5.




It would seem to me then that the more elegant option would be to have Rages that aren't all Daily Attacks. They could be utilities, like the fighter Stances, possibly. 

It just feels very sloppy to have an ability you can't use for 5 levels and that only exists to patch a problem that a weird design choice forced you to need to fix.


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## Drakhar (Oct 6, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> But they don't get the HP that the barb does, they don't get the extra temp thing, and they don't do as much damage.




I'm still not convinced that a Barb is doing all that much more damage then a Ranger or a Rogue. A TWF Ranger can easily have as much or more HP then a Barbarian, a Bow Ranger and a Warlock are attacking from range so they don't need that high hp and a Rogue is focusing on not getting hit. I'm going to assume by the extra temp thing you mean the temp HP which an Infernal Warlock does get, and possibly gets more of.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> It would seem to me then that the more elegant option would be to have Rages that aren't all Daily Attacks. They could be utilities, like the fighter Stances, possibly.
> 
> It just feels very sloppy to have an ability you can't use for 5 levels and that only exists to patch a problem that a weird design choice forced you to need to fix.




Today's my day to argue with you, KM. 

While I agree that the power needs a bit of rewording, I don't think it's _functionally_ problematic. I have no problem whatsoever with a power existing that isn't useful at every level. I wouldn't want it to be the standard, but it's hardly an awful idea in the abstract. Just think of it as a bonus "power" you pick up at 5th level, but it couldn't be phrased that way because the classes in 4E use the same progression in terms of level-based abilities.

And I don't think making all "rages" daily powers is a "weird design choice" at all. It makes perfect sense, and I think it adds nice flavor to the class to have their signature ability and their daily abilities be the same thing.


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## Gloombunny (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm a bit concerned that the barbarian doesn't seem to do very much damage for a striker.  The extra damage on the at-wills is no more than from Hunter's Quarry, and a barbarian who's not raging only gets it if he uses Howling Strike, which is just a basic attack with the extra damage.  A ranger gets the same extra damage while Twin Striking!  Even a raging barbarian doesn't get any more damage from his at-wills, he just gets to do the damage while using at-wills with side benefits.  And it seems like barbarian encounters and dailies mostly do about the same [W]'s as ranger and rogue encounter and dailies (with the notable exception of Avalanche Strike), but the rangers and rogues get added damage on top of those too.

The barbarian closes the gap a bit by using a two-handed weapon, but he still seems to fall behind.  Maybe the free attack when critting and the 1/encounter free attack after killing an enemy will help even things out over the course of the encounter.  And the rage bonuses, though it'll be a number of levels before a barbarian can have those in every encounter, and getting them in every encounter means rationing out your dailies instead of saving them to nova on a boss.


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## ppaladin123 (Oct 6, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Today's my day to argue with you, KM.
> 
> While I agree that the power needs a bit of rewording, I don't think it's _functionally_ problematic. I have no problem whatsoever with a power existing that isn't useful at every level. I wouldn't want it to be the standard, but it's hardly an awful idea in the abstract. Just think of it as a bonus "power" you pick up at 5th level, but it couldn't be phrased that way because the classes in 4E use the same progression in terms of level-based abilities.
> 
> And I don't think making all "rages" daily powers is a "weird design choice" at all. It makes perfect sense, and I think it adds nice flavor to the class to have their signature ability and their daily abilities be the same thing.





As long as they are balanced in such a way that they don't need to be raging to be effective I am ok with this. Otherwise I could see barbarians going nova like 3e wizards and ending up being the limiting factor in the length of a party's adventuring day.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> But they don't get the HP that the barb does, they don't get the extra temp thing, and they don't do as much damage.



They don't do that much damage?! I highly disagree.

And Infernal pact Warlocks _do_ get the temp HP that the barbs do. In fact, I'd say that they get them with more frequency, given that all an Infernal pact warlock has to do is curse a target and walk away; any one who kills it gives the warlock that benefit.


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## questing gm (Oct 6, 2008)

Can anyone explain to me how Hurricane of Blades work? (Lvl 27)
It doesn't say anything about a burst so how does it target more than one opponent?


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## Drakhar (Oct 6, 2008)

questing gm said:


> Can anyone explain to me how Hurricane of Blades work? (Lvl 27)
> It doesn't say anything about a burst so how does it target more than one opponent?




There are 8 squares around you. You can hit upto 6 of them once or a combination of them up to 6 times.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

questing gm said:


> Can anyone explain to me how Hurricane of Blades work? (Lvl 27)
> It doesn't say anything about a burst so how does it target more than one opponent?



Target: One or *more creatures*.
Hit: Strength vs. AC, *six attacks*.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2008)

> Today's my day to argue with you, KM.




Everyone gets their day.  Although it looks like WotC and I were on the same wavelength before!



> Just think of it as a bonus "power" you pick up at 5th level, but it couldn't be phrased that way because the classes in 4E use the same progression in terms of level-based abilities.




That's what makes it seem sloppy to me. Square peg, round hole. If it doesn't work, why would you try and force it in? Just do something that works with the layout. Especially if the reason you'd be forcing that weirdness isn't that important. 



> And I don't think making all "rages" daily powers is a "weird design choice" at all. It makes perfect sense, and I think it adds nice flavor to the class to have their signature ability and their daily abilities be the same thing.




What if they had some sort of "basic rage" as a feature? Something that maybe just turns on the additional at-will power benefits and maybe gives you a little damage or temporary HP kicker, maybe even something you can only activate when you're bloodied (or something that activates automatically when you get bloodied or when you use your second wind). 

This would mean that the rages could still be mostly attack dailies, while still giving you some advantage for Rage Strike at 1st level.

Alternately, ditch the idea of the rages replacing each other and just let a Barbarian "turn on" one or the other as a free action each turn. Thus, no need for a Rage Strike style feature. Or design them so that they interact without being too powerful. There's not that many of daily attack powers, after all, it's not an insurmountable task to compare them and use them all at once. 

It makes some sense, but if it's going to cause problems like this, is it really worth it?

The basic idea is that it's ugly to have this ability sitting there, useless for four levels. That's not a functional concern, but it is an annoyance, and it doesn't need to exist. It makes it seem like the Barbarian is a 5-30 class, not a 1-30 class. It's dead weight on the character sheet for four levels. 

It's not a bad idea, but it looks bad. It's sloppy. Ugly. An obvious bandage over the wound when there is no pressing reason, I think, for the wound in the first place. It cures the symptom, not the disease. It's probably like another metaphor that I could conjure up.


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## Merlin the Tuna (Oct 6, 2008)

I found it amusing that there was a wall of "Superkill Ultradeath" powers followed by "Level 17 encounter powers: Shoulder Slam".

_One of these things is not like the others..._


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## Kishin (Oct 6, 2008)

Merlin the Tuna said:


> I found it amusing that there was a wall of "Superkill Ultradeath" powers followed by "Level 17 encounter powers: Shoulder Slam".
> 
> _One of these things is not like the others..._




They decided to 'slow things down for the ladies'.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 6, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> I'm still not convinced that a Barb is doing all that much more damage then a Ranger or a Rogue.




Thinking about it more I wonder if I jumped the gun a bit. That's what happens when you go with the gut instead of the hard math I'll have to take a harder look at the math to see how they all compare.

Just for a quick look, let's compare a barb with a bow ranger (as I think they are the best rangers personally). Barb with 19 strength, Ranger with 19 dex at 1st level. Since the barb needs a feat to match the AC of the ranger, let's give the ranger improved quarry as a feat.

Twin Strike vs Howling Strike, and we will give the barb a great axe to keep the numbers even.

60% hit chance

Barb: 9.24
Ranger: 11.58
Edit: Fighter 9.35 (greataxe, reaping strike, +1 to hit, weapon focus feat).

Now I did estimate the crit work on twin strike a little bit, so that means the ranger's damage is actually a little LOW. With that in mind, the ranger still holds the damage title, at least with at-wills. I should note that changing the attack chance doesn't effect the math too much, the ranger also holds a solid lead over the barb.

I will say that the crit on a barb is brutal though, average 30.8 damage because of the extra basic attack he gets. That's with an AT-WILL!!


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## Kordeth (Oct 6, 2008)

Zsig said:


> That's actually a very good point.
> 
> 
> Even though the fighter and some other classes also got dailies that works somewhat on a similar way (stances), and they don't have that kind of treatment.
> ...




Fighters have _some_ Stance dailies--and about half of them are Utilities, not attacks. _All_ of a barbarian's daily attacks are rages. The fighter has plenty of options for dealing daily-level damage and effects, the barbarian just has his rages. Forget optimization and think tactics--if your 5th-level barbarian is engaged with a powerful cold-vulnerable solo, you want to drop Frost Wolf Rage ASAP--and what happens when the fight drags on and you need to drop another daily? You don't want to lose that retaliatory cold damage. Without Rage Strike, you have to either give up your sweet cold damage or face the ugly fact of not dropping daily power damage--an ugly prospect for a striker.



Kamikaze Midget said:


> It would seem to me then that the more elegant option would be to have Rages that aren't all Daily Attacks. They could be utilities, like the fighter Stances, possibly.
> 
> It just feels very sloppy to have an ability you can't use for 5 levels and that only exists to patch a problem that a weird design choice forced you to need to fix.




Allowing a barbarian to throw rage strike at 1st level is effectively giving him _twice_ the daily power output of _every other class._ Rage Strike is a way to allow the barbarian to choose which ongoing rage effect he wants to keep for the current encounter while still being able to drop daily attack-caliber damage. It's actually a beautifully elegant concept and shouldn't be changed at all.


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## SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Target: One or *more creatures*.
> Hit: Strength vs. AC, *six attacks*.




It is... Realy broken, six attacks to one or more targets, two attacks in three diferent creatures is ok, 6 attacks (6w+6str) is insane.


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## Gladius Legis (Oct 6, 2008)

We've been discussing this on the Character Op boards on WOTC, and the consensus we've drawn so far:

1) Rage Strike is worthless. Sorry, yes, I said it. It encourages going Nova through your daily powers, and it's not damaging enough to really be worth sacrificing more daily powers than otherwise. One idea we're tossing around is to key Rage Strike off sacrificing healing surges, instead.

2) The at-wills are poorly designed. The extra damage on the at-will becomes EXTREMELY problematic when considering Paragon Multiclassing. Who doesn't want that extra fistful of d6s on every attack? In comparison, multiclassing with other Strikers only gives extra damage for one hit (Rogue), two rounds (Ranger) or nada (Warlock). We've been talking about ways to make the Barbarian have Striker damage like the existing Strikers as a class feature, possibly when charging or bloodied.

3) Hurricane of Blades. What. The. Hell? That thing needs to be capped at three hits, tops, because as is it's a per-encounter post-errata infallible Blade Cascade on steroids. And before you bring up the Fighter's Rain of Blows, that needed to be chopped down a long time ago and two wrongs don't make a right.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS said:


> It is... Realy broken, six attacks to one or more targets, two attacks in three diferent creatures is ok, 6 attacks (6w+6str) is insane.



It's not broken because for the barb to do 6W+6, he's got to _hit with all 6_.

Let's compare it to the Ranger's 27th level attacks:

Death Rend: 2 attacks against one target: 4W+Str + 1d10 (if both hit) + 1d8 Quarry.
Hail of Arrows: 1W+Dex vs. EVERY ENEMY WITHIN RANGE. 
Wandering Tornado: 1W+Str in Close Burst. Shift 1+Wisdom squares, make another close burst 1.

How about the Rogue?
Dance of Death: 3W+Dex in a close burst 1. If any target within the burst makes an attack against you, you can re-direct the attack to another foe.
Hurricane of Blood: 5[W]+Dex(+Str for Brutal Scoundrel).
Perfect Shot: Roll vs 3 Defenses. 4[W]+Dex + 1W if you hit two defenses + Stunned if you hit all three.

The Warlock's 27:
Hellfire Curse: 5d10+Con (+Int if Infernal) damage.
The others are less damage, more effecters.

So I don't really see what makes six attacks at 1W so broken.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2008)

> It's actually a beautifully elegant concept and shouldn't be changed at all.




I don't consider an ability that I get at a level that I can't use to be beautiful or elegant.

It's like giving a two-year old a cookie and telling him he can't eat it until after dinner.

You GAVE HIM THE COOKIE, and you don't EXPECT HIM TO EAT IT?! Why didn't you just wait to give him the cookie in the first place?

Feels unfair. Feels ugly. Feels like a kludge. 

I won't deny that there needs to be a way to get milage out of a second daily at higher levels, I just think that awarding that way at 1st level when he can't use it is very frustrating.



> Allowing a barbarian to throw rage strike at 1st level is effectively giving him twice the daily power output of every other class. Rage Strike is a way to allow the barbarian to choose which ongoing rage effect he wants to keep for the current encounter while still being able to drop daily attack-caliber damage.




...and the better option, in my mind, would be to make it so daily attacks aren't all "rages," so that he can get daily attack-caliber damage without using a kludge.


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## Kordeth (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I don't consider an ability that I get at a level that I can't use to be beautiful or elegant.




Well, on that we'll just have to disagree.



> It's like giving a two-year old a cookie and telling him he can't eat it until after dinner.
> 
> You GAVE HIM THE COOKIE, and you don't EXPECT HIM TO EAT IT?! Why didn't you just wait to give him the cookie in the first place?




Flawed analogy, because the two-year-old already has a cookie, and so do all his two-year-old friends. Giving this two-year-old a _second_ cookie wouldn't be fair to the other two year olds. Rage Strike is more like giving a syringe of insulin to a diabetic with a cookie, so that when he eats his second cookie after dinner (along with, once again, all his little two-year-old friends) he doesn't go into a diabetic coma and die.


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## Gladius Legis (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> It's not broken because for the barb to do 6W+6, he's got to _hit with all 6_.
> 
> Let's compare it to the Ranger's 27th level attacks:
> 
> ...



It's not just that, though. 6 attacks means 6 TIMES you're adding STATIC BONUSES. And that's not just the ability modifier. It's also things like Weapon Focus, Power Attack and the many sources of power bonuses, item bonuses and untyped bonuses (Kensei or Pit Fighter, anyone?) in the game. PER HIT.


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## Rechan (Oct 6, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:


> It's not just that, though. 6 attacks means 6 TIMES you're adding STATIC BONUSES. And that's not just the ability modifier. It's also things like Weapon Focus, Power Attack and the many sources of power bonuses, item bonuses and untyped bonuses (Kensei or Pit Fighter, anyone?) in the game. PER HIT.



I don't see that as broken.


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## Baumi (Oct 6, 2008)

I think the Rage-At-Will is ment to spent the rage (so you are no longer in that "stance") you are in, instead of expending another Daily.

So if you are raging you gain your typical bonuses from that daily until you decide to put your whole (leftover) rage into one strike but are exhausted afterwards (rage ended).

This would make more sense IMHO since you could use it from level 1 onward and would give you a meaningfull tactical choice (much damage now or rage bonuses for a few rounds more...).


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2008)

> Flawed analogy, because the two-year-old already has a cookie, and so do all his two-year-old friends. Giving this two-year-old a second cookie wouldn't be fair to the other two year olds. Rage Strike is more like giving a syringe of insulin to a diabetic with a cookie, so that when he eats his second cookie after dinner (along with, once again, all his little two-year-old friends) he doesn't go into a diabetic coma and die.




The analogy isn't flawed, you're just kind of missing the thrust of it.

I'm not arguing about balance at all.

I'm arguing against an ability that is worthless for four levels. Against dead weight on the character sheet.

If you have an ability, you should be able to use it. 

If you can't use it, you shouldn't have it. 

I understand that this is "like" getting another feature at 5th level, but that's part of what I see as sloppy, because it's "like" getting another feature at 5th level, but it's not getting another feature at 5th level. It's getting a useless feature at 1st level.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I don't see that as broken.




I just ran some quick math. Took a 30th level barb, gave him a 60% chance to hit.

Damage: d12 (greataxe) + 10 (strength) + 3 (weapon focus) + 6 (magic) + 5 (misc bonuses from powers, items, and anything else I just can't account for).

With those numbers, the barbarian is doing about the equivalent of a 8[w] attack. At 70%, it jumps to 11[w].

I should also mention I did not include crits in the calculation, and barbs do a LOT of damage on crits with their extra attack ability. So I'm sure that would bump it up to 12 or even 13[w].

For a daily that's awesome...more than likely overpowered. For an encounter, completely overpowered.


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## amysrevenge (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> ...and the better option, in my mind, would be to make it so daily attacks aren't all "rages," so that he can get daily attack-caliber damage without using a kludge.




To be fair, we've only seen half the dailies at any given level...  It might be that the "Thaneblood" dailies aren't rages.


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## Fallen Seraph (Oct 6, 2008)

I am not much of one for delving into math, so shall stick to the more fluffy side of things.

I am extremely glad they have gone the path with Primal of it being atleast for the Barbarian being based off spirits. I have always enjoyed the idea of using/communing with spirits as a form of supernatural empowerment so this is great.

It is also easy to alter for different cultures, for example. I am thinking for one campaign of mine, Barbarians will be essentially Voodoo priest/ess who have been able to summon and be possessed by Loa to do their more supernatural abilities.

One thing (and not just for Barbarians) that I have somewhat a peeve about. Is well WoTC's obsession with elements. I will probably refluff like I have done with most classes the elemental powers into other things (lots of things you can use when talking about spirits).


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## Iron Dog (Oct 6, 2008)

Seems that this barbarian feels a lot like Slaine (Sláine (comics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) than Conan.

"It's time for a Warp SPASM....ARRRGGGHHHHHH!"


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## Jack99 (Oct 6, 2008)

Baumi said:


> I think the Rage-At-Will is ment to spent the rage (so you are no longer in that "stance") you are in, instead of expending another Daily.
> 
> So if you are raging you gain your typical bonuses from that daily until you decide to put your whole (leftover) rage into one strike but are exhausted afterwards (rage ended).
> 
> This would make more sense IMHO since you could use it from level 1 onward and would give you a meaningfull tactical choice (much damage now or rage bonuses for a few rounds more...).




We have a winner! At least that's how I read it as well..


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## Raith5 (Oct 6, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:


> We've been discussing this on the Character Op boards on WOTC, and the consensus we've drawn so far:
> 
> 1) Rage Strike is worthless. Sorry, yes, I said it. It encourages going Nova through your daily powers, and it's not damaging enough to really be worth sacrificing more daily powers than otherwise. One idea we're tossing around is to key Rage Strike off sacrificing healing surges, instead..




And why would you not open up an encounter with a rage daily power... every time.


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## Starfox (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm worried about the 15-minuted-workday barbarian. This might be the reason they made some of the encounter powers very strong, but it is still potentially a problem. And if you do the wise thing and spend one rage/fight, you probably start the grand finale fights with fewer dailies than anyone else. A tricky situation.



ppaladin123 said:


> That's a power I thought of when I was musing about martial controllers. It seems thematically appropriate for a barbarian but not mechanically appropriate for a striker (especially one that has to charge across that terrain to do damage!).




I feel this barbarian is very close to a controller. And I like that. Attacks over wide areas, very strong knockdown abilities which are a form of control. It does kind of break the Striker mold, tough. 



Rechan said:


> look at the other striker classes. Warlock, Ranger AND Rogue all get extra damage die. Barbs don't.




With no striker bonus damage dice, the powers of the barbarian become very tempting to multi-class into. I wonder if that's why they didn't include a MC feat? Seriously, they will probably change this, bake much of the extra damage into a class ability instead of directly into the powers. The extra attack on a critical tries to look like striker bonus damage but really is too unreliable to count.


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## Vendark (Oct 6, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:


> 1) Rage Strike is worthless. Sorry, yes, I said it. It encourages going Nova through your daily powers,




No, it _allows_ going nova through your daily powers, which is something any other class can do. A barbarian still isn't likely to _want_ to go through his dailies on Rage Strike because then he loses out on his sweet rage buffs for the rest of the day. But if a barbarian player feels that he absolutely needs to be able to drop an enemy right now, he shouldn't feel barred from doing so in a way that no other class experiences.



> and it's not damaging enough to really be worth sacrificing more daily powers than otherwise.




You're sort of contradicting yourself. I don't see how it can both a) encourage people to blow through their dailies and b) not be worth spending a daily on.



> One idea we're tossing around is to key Rage Strike off sacrificing healing surges, instead.




This is just a different way to nova. A barbarian who's blown all his healing surges on Rage Strike is going to want to rest just as much if not more than a barbarian who's run out of dailies doing the same thing.


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## Gladius Legis (Oct 6, 2008)

Vendark said:


> No, it _allows_ going nova through your daily powers, which is something any other class can do. A barbarian still isn't likely to _want_ to go through his dailies on Rage Strike because then he loses out on his sweet rage buffs for the rest of the day. But if a barbarian player feels that he absolutely needs to be able to drop an enemy right now, he shouldn't feel barred from doing so in a way that no other class experiences.



Yeah, sacrifice a Rage attack (which is already good damage, anyway) for an attack that isn't much more damaging than what the Rage attack already is. News flash: 9[W] with no rider effects or buffs is NOT that impressive.

Put it this way: Using Rage Strike instead of an actual Rage power is like a Lv. 29 Fighter selecting No Mercy instead of Force the Battle. And EVERYONE knows that's a dumb decision.



> You're sort of contradicting yourself. I don't see how it can both a) encourage people to blow through their dailies and b) not be worth spending a daily on.



Ever hear of traps? Rage Strike is the ultimate example of that. Looks exciting at first glance, but is really a pile of suck.

So, no, it's not a contradiction.



> This is just a different way to nova. A barbarian who's blown all his healing surges on Rage Strike is going to want to rest just as much if not more than a barbarian who's run out of dailies doing the same thing.



Not really, particularly with a good CON modifier. And it won't be a trap.


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## Kirnon_Bhale (Oct 6, 2008)

[I too am in the worried about going Nova through Rage Striking but at the same time I like the way Dailies mimic Raging for a Barbarian. This is my off the cuff solution that I would love people to dissect.

*Rage Strike* – Turn it into the opposite of the clerics healing word. Minor action use a surge deal damage equal to surge +2d6. (Increase to 3d6 and 5d6 as per Rogue) Only usable when in a rage useable twice an encounter. Only useable once per round. Not usable same turn as Daily??? (unsure)

This would mean that the Barbarian can’t do bonus damage as often makes him think twice about doing due to his loss of surges – also doesn’t encourage Rage Nova’s. He will do less bonus damage round by round but when he does do it, it will be impressive. The median damage of the surge is pretty much on a par with a d12 weapon barbarian – minus the striker bonus damage.

This I think would solve the multiclass problem – although I was thinking that it might be useful to restrict barbarian powers to two handed attacks only. This would help prevent AC busting Barbarians by restricting shields a little.

My third thought was regarding Dailies. Why don’t the effects stack and would it be completely unbalancing if they did? This frees the Barbarian from only optimally being able to use one Rage per encounter but isn’t a no brainer thus as with all classes He can go Nova or not – and would be a nice way of showing him getting even more enraged if he does happen to use a couple in a single combat. If the effects would require a slight nerf because of this then surely while it is being worked on it could. 

While I am sure that there are a number of holes in my idea – On the surface it would look to have some merit. Less often with the extra damage but it’ll hurt when it is used and at a cost.


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## Leatherhead (Oct 6, 2008)

I am not too keen on the way the class is set up. The Barbarian is a striker, but the extra striker damage is more incorporated into their evocations instead of their extra damage class feature (rampage). Mostly because rampage only happens once in twenty rolls or so, instead of nearly every round like the other striker features. This would be fine but quirky if they existed in a vacuum, but think of the multi-classing problems it can cause when a ranger (or even perhaps another future melee striker that uses two handed weapons) gets their hands on some barbarian evocations.

Oh yeah, for the quick fix:
Evocations do less damage, Rampage triggers nearly once a round. Off the top of my head I would say it could even work as an extra melee basic attack per round when you manage to hit an enemy, but maybe just an extra attack that deals 1[W] damage(2[W] at level 21+) without any stat bonuses would keep them "in line but different."


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## Saben (Oct 6, 2008)

The reason I'm not comfortable with Barb where it is right now, is because of how off and on it seems compared to other classes. When you rage, you are uber for the entire encounter, even your at-wills become uber and if you choose you can even UBER BURST with Rage Strike.

The rest of the time... well, even your at-wills are worse. This means the class leans towards being able to nova 3 times per day and being sub-par the rest of the time. I could be wrong, but I just get the feeling that the class is the worst offender in that regard... I mean, a Wizard's at-wills aren't as good as a Ranger's, but he has better Dailies to make up for it. But I think the Barbarian takes this too much to the extreme.


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## Ulrik (Oct 6, 2008)

Kirnon_Bhale said:


> [I too am in the worried about going Nova through Rage Striking but at the same time I like the way Dailies mimic Raging for a Barbarian. This is my off the cuff solution that I would love people to dissect.




I think it's best to just regard Rage Strike as a patch to make up for the fact that rages don't stack. So it should really just be ignored, until you feel like you really should use another daily in this combat. It doesn't look like a core feature. Removing it would, in the vast majority of cases, not make the barbarian sub-par.

I think the problem is presentation, it's presented as a class feature which looks pretty prominent, when it's more on the level of Wizard cantrips. The class is designed to function just fine without it in something like 80% or 90% of all adventuring days, so attempting to "fix" it by making it do something else is pretty pointless. If it's really that much of a distraction it should rather be removed.

The issue of multclassing is more worrying, but isn't mc'ing one of the areas lacking in playtest? I also heard it mentioned here on these boards that it was implemented through feats partially so it could easily be replaced. Perhaps PHBII introduces a new system for multiclassing. Which would be welcome if the current system places so severe restrictions on class design that all strikers *have to* have bonus damage, which is what is being argued here.


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## Ulrik (Oct 6, 2008)

Saben said:


> The reason I'm not comfortable with Barb where it is right now, is because of how off and on it seems compared to other classes. When you rage, you are uber for the entire encounter, even your at-wills become uber and if you choose you can even UBER BURST with Rage Strike.




Lots of dailies affect the entire encounter. Just by looking at the cleric, you have Beacon of Hope and Spiritual Weapon at lvl 1 and 5 respectively. +5 healing for all your powers? Makes the cleric much better at his job, for that encounter, once per day. Same with spiritual weapon, extra damage and reducing AC *on all attacks* for that encounter.

It's the intent of all dailies to affect the entire encounter, either through a persistent effect or huge burst damage. Barbarians are just more obvious about it with the rage effect and burst from Rage Strike.

(Of course, it may be that it's too much effect from a daily compared to other classes, it's a playtest after all  I just think the basic idea is not necessarily bad.)


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## Kirnon_Bhale (Oct 6, 2008)

The problem is that Rage strike does feel like a patch rather then a core feature of the barbarian. Hence my thoughts on the matter. I have been going through the rages and I can't see a problem with treating the rage differently to a stance and allowing the effects to stack, if you look at it from all sorts of angles Rage strike just seems off. It feels like it needs a change.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I don't consider an ability that I get at a level that I can't use to be beautiful or elegant.




I don't find it elegant either. Clever maybe, but not elegant. I'd rather see the ongoing affect of the existing rage spent as opposed to another daily power. You can ever power down rage strike a bit. That way its usable at first level and you don't have to go all in with dailies to use your abilities.


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## Wonka (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I understand that this is "like" getting another feature at 5th level, but that's part of what I see as sloppy, because it's "like" getting another feature at 5th level, but it's not getting another feature at 5th level. It's getting a useless feature at 1st level.





If you cant use it until level 5, dont give it out until level 5. Problem solved, and the mechanic (which I happen to like) still works.


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## Wormwood (Oct 6, 2008)

I'll be playtesting this soon, but my initial reaction toward _rage strike _is fairly negative. The implementation seems klunky, inelegant, and unnecessary. 

There's already plenty of existing design space for 'does extra damage while raging'---I don't enjoy seeing new subsystems introduced unless they are smooth and simple.

We'll see how it works in play, of course.


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## Tikigod (Oct 6, 2008)

To the half - orc guessers out there:

They will have +2 Str +2 Dex


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## Wonka (Oct 6, 2008)

Also, on the mention of orcs (well, ok half-orcs), IMO far and away the coolest art in the whole article is the dwarf surrounded by the orcs. The look on the dwarf's face is priceless. Anyone else feel like those orcs are in for a surprise?


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## MkaY (Oct 6, 2008)

Hhmmm.. I don't even know where to start. I had a fool's hope that there WOULD be barbarian multiclass feat included but "surprise surprise" there was not.

I would like to hear some opinions what kind of multiclass feat it could be? Any suggestions? Since we are currently using homebrew multiclass barbarian version in our group and we decided that we can use that *until* the playtest arrives. Any suggestions?

I know that it actually isn't easy task this time


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## Belphanior (Oct 6, 2008)

Wonka said:


> If you cant use it until level 5, dont give it out until level 5. Problem solved, and the mechanic (which I happen to like) still works.




I also like Rage Strike, but not giving it until level 5 would be worse. It's a _class feature_. This isn't the era anymore where you need to level up in order to get your class features; you have them all at level 1. If it's something you get later it's a power, feat, or PP/ED feature.

Now that said, I think Rage Strike is absolutely fine on every account. It's simple, effective, an innovative way of breaking out of the default striker build, and it doesn't discourage people from going nova anymore (which every other class can do).


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## TerraDave (Oct 6, 2008)

And the mighty barbarian is: overcomplicated and fiddly?

There is rage(strike), there is needing to remember when to get your temp hp, there is needing to remember your extra crit attack....

...by themselves, ok, but put them together, and Conan's head starts to hurt.


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## TerraDave (Oct 6, 2008)

Also:

thaneborn=cheifly?


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## Wonka (Oct 6, 2008)

Belphanior said:


> I also like Rage Strike, but not giving it until level 5 would be worse. It's a _class feature_. This isn't the era anymore where you need to level up in order to get your class features; you have them all at level 1. If it's something you get later it's a power, feat, or PP/ED feature.
> 
> Now that said, I think Rage Strike is absolutely fine on every account. It's simple, effective, an innovative way of breaking out of the default striker build, and it doesn't discourage people from going nova anymore (which every other class can do).




I personally have no issue with it not being usable until 5th level, I was merely offering a potential solution to someone who did find the idead clunky. I actually like the mechanic as its written. I think to many people are going crazy without doing any playtesting, some stuff that people think seems broken might not be so much when playtesting is done. There is no possible way any of these are anymore than just theoretical problems. By this I mean they are perceived problems. They might not actually be as big a deal in playtesting, or they will be as bad as thought. Just saying give the class a playtest  And I do hope people are sending feedback to the developers about their concerns. Im hoping we get the developers behind this to post their thoughts on why they did things, that always helps to get a sense of what their basis for design choices were.



TerraDave said:


> And the mighty barbarian is: overcomplicated and fiddly?
> 
> There is rage(strike), there is needing to remember when to get your temp hp, there is needing to remember your extra crit attack....
> 
> ...by themselves, ok, but put them together, and Conan's head starts to hurt.




Just cause Conan has a low Int, doesnt mean the controlling player does


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## Baumi (Oct 6, 2008)

Since my post got ignored (besides Jack99 ... thx ) I wanted to repeat my suggestion since I think that this would clear all the problems with the Rage At-Will:



Baumi said:


> I think the Rage-At-Will is ment to spent the rage (so you are no longer in that "stance") you are in, instead of expending another Daily.
> 
> So if you are raging you gain your typical bonuses from that daily until you decide to put your whole (leftover) rage into one strike but are exhausted afterwards (rage ended).
> 
> This would make more sense IMHO since you could use it from level 1 onward and would give you a meaningfull tactical choice (much damage now or rage bonuses for a few rounds more...).


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## Jack99 (Oct 6, 2008)

Baumi said:


> Since my post got ignored (besides Jack99 ... thx ) I wanted to repeat my suggestion since I think that this would clear all the problems with the Rage At-Will:




Yeah. Problem was that I was still half asleep. While it makes total sense (Unleash your fury in one great hit), the power states that it must be a unused rage power you expend.


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## Wonka (Oct 6, 2008)

Baumi said:


> Since my post got ignored (besides Jack99 ... thx ) I wanted to repeat my suggestion since I think that this would clear all the problems with the Rage At-Will:




Yes it did get lost  Its a nice idea on the surface, however, there is a slightly hidden problem with that. Doing it that way, you are basically getting an "extra" use of your daily that way. First you use the daily to deal the listed damage/effect and enter your rage. Then, you lose your rage and deal the damage based on the level of the rage. So for a level 1 daily rage, you are getting the initial 3[W] for using it, then another 3[W] for expending your rage, getting a total of 6[W] from one daily power. Seems slightly out of balance to me. Level 25 ones get 7[W] + 8[W] for 15[W], just seems a but too much to me.


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## Mengu (Oct 6, 2008)

I'll start by saying I like most of what I see, but I feel a few tweaks are needed.

My initial concern after reading it was, why wouldn't a barbarian's first feat be chain armor? Since they don't rely on Dex or Int, it seems odd. Most barbarians will feel obliged to get this feat, and even possibly follow it up with light shield and scale. That's such a boring path of feats. Since 4e is trying to get away from the auto-pick feats, I think this issue needs to be addressed.

I also don't like Rage Strike at all. It's a waste of space. There is no way I want to encourage a character to give up a daily power to nova in one encounter. 

I would gut out Rage Strike (don't see any need for it), and replace it with a class feature that allows the barbarian to use their constitution or charisma as an AC bonus instead of dexterity or intelligence, if they are wearing light armor. This puts them on par with two weapon rangers and warlocks.

If the intent was to make it so Barbarians are easier to hit, but can absorb more damage (as the class description seems to indicate), then the class is not going to work as is. Chain armor is way too tempting to resist, though I guess this isn't terribly different than the wizard and leather armor.

I don't have a problem with the way Howling Strike works aside from paragon multiclassing concerns. That part can easily be fixed by imposing some sort of requirement without changing the mechanics.

This class also suffers from "everyone can do it but dragonborn can do it better" syndrome.


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## Gunpowder (Oct 6, 2008)

Mengu said:


> I'll start by saying I like most of what I see, but I feel a few tweaks are needed.
> 
> My initial concern after reading it was, why wouldn't a barbarian's first feat be chain armor? Since they don't rely on Dex or Int, it seems odd. Most barbarians will feel obliged to get this feat, and even possibly follow it up with light shield and scale. That's such a boring path of feats. Since 4e is trying to get away from the auto-pick feats, I think this issue needs to be addressed.
> 
> ...




Rage strike isnt made to encourage novaing it is used to enable novaing, like every other class can fully benefit from burning multipule dailies in an encounter. The barbarian without would override his first daily with his second. This is a problem if the first rage buff is more effective then the second but the barb still feels the need to unleash daily calibar damage. 

no comment on the armor issue but on the dragonborn issue.
STATEMENT: R.I.T.M.(Rage in the machine) SURPERIOR, SCALY FLESHBAG INFERIOR. 
Seriously, warforged frenzy barbs don't go down until negative bloodied. Granted when they go down they stay down forever. Also same stat bonuses and the warforged racial that heals when bloodied and gain temp HP is totally up the barbs alley


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## Phaezen (Oct 6, 2008)

Just to give my reading of Rage Strike, and why it is there.

When a Barbarian uses a Rage Power (aka a daily) he gets 1. an ongoing benefit till the end of the encounter, he is dropped to zero hitpoints, *or he uses another rage power*. 2, He also gets bonuses on his at will powers. (Charge with no Opporunity Attacks for Howling Strike, Extra Damage for Pressing Strike and Extra temporary Hitpoints for Recuperating Strike).  The main advantage of raging is the bonusses to the at wills.

Rage Strike allows the barbarian to gain the damage of using a daily power without ending the ongoing benefit his current rage power. So while it does allow the player to burn through his dailies, I don't think it will occur more often than any other class burning through thier dailies.

Phaezen


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## Wonka (Oct 6, 2008)

Mengu said:


> This class also suffers from "everyone can do it but dragonborn can do it better" syndrome.




Some classes are better suited for some races than others, I fail to see a problem. Thats like telling me the artful dodger rogue suffers from "everyone can do it but halflings/drow can do it better" syndrome. Unless I am misinterpreting your statement here as a complaint when it is in fact not one.


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## Duelpersonality (Oct 6, 2008)

*Thoughts*

Garglemesh but you guys are quick.  Only got through the first two pages here, so cut me some slack if I'm bringing up "old" points. 

*HP:*  I strongly disagree with giving a striker class the HP of a defender, barbarian or no.  The build they gave us gets temporary HP for dropping foes- something I don't think the barbarian will have any trouble with-and there's an at-will that drops temporary HP as well, so why give the extra HP?

*At-will powers:*  I don't mind the damage and effectiveness of the barbarian at-will powers because of the lack of an "extra damage" striker ability.  I do not count Rage Strike, as it requires the expenditure of a resource that is in very short supply, unlike sneak attack, hunter's quarry and warlock's curse.  If they keep the set-up the same, the at-wills are fine.

*Rage Strike:*  This feature is a hidden break in the class design philosophy that the designers talked about all through the previews for 4E:  all classes will get all class features at level 1.  Granted, Rage Strike is available at level one, but is completely useless until level 5 and doesn't really become a consistently useful ability until level 9.  At most, Rage Strike can be used twice in a day (and only then if the barbarian expends all three daily powers in one encounter).  I'll have to see it in play, but as it stands I don't like it.

*Rage mechanic:*  Different rages behaving much like stances seems pretty good on paper.  I would actually prefer rage to be the barbarian's extra damage ability, conferring extra damage once per round at some penalty, but I'll play around with this and see how it works out.

*General focus on killing the life out of everything:*  "The howling savage sends the corpse of his enemy flying, carries his swing onto the next doomed opponent, then charges through the fracas to deliver a decisive blow against the enemy commander."  Imagine this: a rageblood barbarian scores a critical hit which also kills the target, allowing him to make a melee basic attack against another target and then charge and use an at-will power without provoking OAs.  Oh yeah, and he gains a fair amount of temporary hit points on top of that.  All of that in a single standard action (or even a minor action if it's a dragonborn scoring a crit and kill with his breath weapon).  This right here says barbarian to me-a screaming death machine plowing through the front lines to charge frothing at the mouth at the biggest target.  Fun times.

*Overall:*  I'm still a bit worried about how raging in general will play out, and specifically worried that Rage Strike will be a completely unused feature of the class.  The defender HP on a striker bothers me a lot, especially given that there's an at-will power that grants temporary hit points.  The flavor of some of the other features (Rampage, the Swift Charge power) are wonderful, and I can't wait to try them out.  As it stands, I'm extremely nervous about the designers changing up the general guidelines that the current classes have set down and what it could mean in the way of power creep in the PHB2.  But I so want to rage, kill things, and go charging into the fray with no regard to my own safety!


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2008)

> If you cant use it until level 5, dont give it out until level 5. Problem solved, and the mechanic (which I happen to like) still works.




Well, not really, because then you have the funkiness of getting a class feature at level 5 when no one else is getting a class feature. 

The mechanic isn't the problem, the problem is that it's useless for four levels. Somehow solve that "uselessness" problem, and you've made me a happy camper.

The more I think about it, the more I think there should be a basic "rage" feature that isn't a daily attack. If you migrate the damage capacity from the abilities into this "rage" feature, the abilities don't look as sexy for multiclassing. Even if we get rid of Rage Strike entirely, the idea of moving the damage capacity from powers into a different feature is an important one.


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## Nightchilde-2 (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> No, I read it that way too.
> 
> "You should've hit me" would then be followed by an axe to the face. It's a nifty way for a Barbarian to try that whole "if you don't kill me first, you're dead, you know that?" thing. Which is a cool bit of combat RP.




You can't RP in 4e.  Didn't you get the memo?  

For the most part, I like this article and the class.  The Rage Strike needs some clarification, and I worry about that one ability that gives you temp hp when you take down critters to 0 hp.

Wait..I forget (and don't have my books with me)..do temp HP stack?  If not, then it's not so bad.  If so, then barbarian + minions + great cleave = OH CRAP.


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> It's not a bad idea, but it looks bad. It's sloppy. Ugly. An obvious bandage over the wound when there is no pressing reason, I think, for the wound in the first place. It cures the symptom, not the disease. It's probably like another metaphor that I could conjure up.



 So you think the fish rots from the head. So you are thinking cut off the head?
(sorry, your metaphor is similar to Dr. Horrible so it made me think you werte going to continue in that way)

Mengu said:


> My initial concern after reading it was, why wouldn't a barbarian's first feat be chain armor? Since they don't rely on Dex or Int, it seems odd. Most barbarians will feel obliged to get this feat, and even possibly follow it up with light shield and scale. That's such a boring path of feats. Since 4e is trying to get away from the auto-pick feats, I think this issue needs to be addressed.





Why would a Barbarian use Light Shield? He uses a 2 handed weapon like a spear or sword or axe.
Doesn't seem vey Barbarian to be one handed (unless versatile but then can't use shield much anyway).
I think it would be fine if they included it, but not neccessary.
I agree with Chain + Scle (Conan sure did).




> Originally Posted by *TerraDave*
> 
> 
> _And the mighty barbarian is: overcomplicated and fiddly?
> ...




_Terra, Conan was a smart guy. He'd know what to do. The Character might not but Conans Player always did._


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## Zaukrie (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm at work, so I skimmed the beginning of the article.

It's too complicated, because I couldn't understand how it works in the first 2 minutes. I know that sounds silly, but I think that is true. They need to much more clearly have a paragraph on rages, I think. Of course, maybe that skim was even too fast.

Rage strike is silliness. I don't want a power I can't use for 4 levels, and that even this is questionable.

I actually like most of the class, but the rage mechanic seems clunky and harder to track. Frankly, I'm sure that if rage strike and rages were more clear, and were easier to use, that two of the four people I DM with would take this class faster than I can say boo (not the grown up group, but the one with 3 kids and one adult).

Nice class, some cool abilities, and a new mechanic are nice. Actual implementation is not yet totally clear, and the coolest power seems like it isn't available until 5th level.


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## Cadfan (Oct 6, 2008)

Well, I wrote a giant post but an accidental log out ate it.

In short,

1. Striker?  I lose.

2. AC doesn't scale right since neither dex nor int are favored.  Chainmail proficiency will become a must have, or else con or cha must be sacrificed.

3. Pressing Strike is so much better than Deft Strike that it isn't even funny.

4. Recuperating Strike similarly owns Bolstering Strike.

5. I know you can't make direct comparisons like that without context, but it does stick out.

6. Rage Strike is interesting, but why isn't it available at level 5 when you can first use it?  Maybe the class description should call out the fact that it is only a desirable thing to use when your back's against a wall?  Change the name to "Desperation Strike."

7. Hammer Fall is like Topple Over, except probably better.  More jealousy for my rogue.

8. This class looks good, but it also looks seriously difficult to use.  You have to know when to slip into the middle of the battle and lay out everyone around you with close bursts, and when to get out of dodge because your hit points are being sucked away.

9. This class doesn't mark, but its AC is so low that its almost like its marking everyone adjacent to it anyways.  Seriously, a starting AC of 14 is pretty likely, and by level 30 that's only going to improve to about a 24 unless you invest in chainmail or put points in dex.

I'll have to stat up some trial characters to see what they really look like when you put them together.  Its hard to visualize the power level because there are so many bonuses creeping in from multiple sources, like the rages and the way they augment everything you do.

The only thing that leaps out at me as unbalanced is Pressing Strike.  I think its too good.  Its a single power that, alone, makes this class as maneuverable as a Ranger or Rogue.  Without that power, I don't think I'd even agree with the designers that this was a Striker class.  But with it, I'm concerned that the Barbarian becomes the most maneuverable of all the strikers when it comes to the most important forms of maneuverability the game has.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> ...Chainmail proficiency will become a must have, or else con or cha must be sacrificed...You have to know when to slip into the middle of the battle and lay out everyone around you with close bursts, and when to get out of dodge because your hit points are being sucked away....This class doesn't mark, but its AC is so low that its almost like its marking everyone adjacent to it anyways. Seriously, a starting AC of 14 is pretty likely, and by level 30 that's only going to improve to about a 24 unless you invest in chainmail or put points in dex....




Well, for one, I think this is why your Rogue shouldn't be too jealous. He'll be dancing around the swords of his enemy that the barbarian just runs through, impaling himself.  

For two, I think Barbarians make up the difference mostly in getting those temp HP boosts. The time to get out of dodge is when you stop being able to kill things quickly, which means you might need some backup. At least for this build, anyway. When bodies aren't hitting the floor, yours might be soon.


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## Wonka (Oct 6, 2008)

Nightchilde-2 said:


> Wait..I forget (and don't have my books with me)..do temp HP stack?  If not, then it's not so bad.  If so, then barbarian + minions + great cleave = OH CRAP.




They do not stack.



Kamikaze Midget said:


> Well, not really, because then you have the funkiness of getting a class feature at level 5 when no one else is getting a class feature.
> 
> The mechanic isn't the problem, the problem is that it's useless for four levels. Somehow solve that "uselessness" problem, and you've made me a happy camper.
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I think there should be a basic "rage" feature that isn't a daily attack. If you migrate the damage capacity from the abilities into this "rage" feature, the abilities don't look as sexy for multiclassing. Even if we get rid of Rage Strike entirely, the idea of moving the damage capacity from powers into a different feature is an important one.




While you get a class feature at 5, you are down one that you would otherwise have until that level. Balances out in my mind. Perhaps I am in the minority, but I have no problem with rage strike not being usable until level 5. Doesn't bother me in the slightest, since its not something Id use every fight anyway. However, it does seem to go against their design philosophy yes, so how about some sort of non daily rage, sort of a baby rage if you will until you hit 5 and can use the big boy rages? I dont WANT to get rid of rage strike, I love the mechanic as is. Its a weapon you wont always use, but when you need to goto it its there to be taken advantage of. The problem is then to make it useable for levels 1-4.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2008)

> While you get a class feature at 5, you are down one that you would otherwise have until that level.




Right. That's why it's kludgy. Not unbalanced, but ugly. Not about power, but about how it feels to sit down and pick up the class. Feels like I'm being given a cookie and told I can't eat it.


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## Cadfan (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Well, for one, I think this is why your Rogue shouldn't be too jealous. He'll be dancing around the swords of his enemy that the barbarian just runs through, impaling himself.
> 
> For two, I think Barbarians make up the difference mostly in getting those temp HP boosts. The time to get out of dodge is when you stop being able to kill things quickly, which means you might need some backup. At least for this build, anyway. When bodies aren't hitting the floor, yours might be soon.



I dunno.  I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what I should count as a "standard" build for a barbarian.

Here's what I get as likely numbers.

At level 1:
Rogue with leather armor: 16 AC
Barbarian with hide armor: 14 AC
Barbarian with chain armor: 16 AC
2HF Fighter with scale armor: 17 AC

At level 30
Rogue with starleather armor: 28 AC
Barbarian with elder hide armor: 22 AC
Barbarian with spiritmail armor: 28 AC
Fighter with elderscale armor: 29 AC

I think that chain is going to become a must-have feat.  It costs one point of movement (not an important loss for a barbarian since his maneuverability is across the short range and based on powers with fixed movement distances), and one feat.  The prereqs are not a concern.  And at higher levels it produces an AC improvement of about 6.


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## Wonka (Oct 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Right. That's why it's kludgy. Not unbalanced, but ugly. Not about power, but about how it feels to sit down and pick up the class. Feels like I'm being given a cookie and told I can't eat it.




Yup, I see where you are coming from. Perhaps adding some sort of class feature power that you can use SOLELY to power Rage Strike until you get your level 5 daily, at which point it becomes useless? Or perhaps making Rage Strike usable without expending a rage to do so, but at the cost of being only 1[W]+str damage or so? So its viable, but not overpowering. And then it just gets better once you can start expending rages to power it up. I dont know, just tossing out ideas


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## Phaezen (Oct 6, 2008)

Wonka said:


> While you get a class feature at 5, you are down one that you would otherwise have until that level.






Kamikaze Midget said:


> Right. That's why it's kludgy. Not unbalanced, but ugly. Not about power, but about how it feels to sit down and pick up the class. Feels like I'm being given a cookie and told I can't eat it.




All it is is a way that allows a barbarian to use multiple dailies.  Instead of being in a situation where he would like to (or needs to) use a second daily attack to do big damage, but doesn't want to loose the advantage he is getting from the ongoing bonus from his first daily he can now spend the second daily just to do damage.  This equates to all other classes being able to use multiple dailie attacks from level 5 without giving up an advantage.

Could possibly be put slightly better, but I don't think it is a problem, but rather fixes one.

Besides he gets some nice boosts to his atwills while raging.

Phaezen


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## Wonka (Oct 6, 2008)

Phaezen, you left out the most important part of that statement in your quote, that I feel that balances out.  I just want to repeat I have no issues with the ability as it is. I'm merely brainstorming _possible_ changes with KM as what he sees as a problem.


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## Phaezen (Oct 6, 2008)

Wonka said:


> Phaezen, you left out the most important part of that statement in your quote, that I feel that balances out.  I just want to repeat I have no issues with the ability as it is. I'm merely brainstorming _possible_ changes with KM as what he sees as a problem.




Blame hurried stealth posting at work 

I just have the feeling that most people are missing the point of the class ability.  So while it seems to do what is intented I don't know if WOTC should have try at rewording it so the intent of the power comes across better.

Phaezen


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## Hadrian the Builder (Oct 6, 2008)

What about multiclassing from fighter and using a stance and a rage at the same time?

My gut tells me that this should not be, but do the rules specifically prevent it?


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## Klaus (Oct 6, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> THats one hell of a piece of artwork on the 2nd page there.
> 
> And it's a striker.
> 
> Sweet.



It is technically well-done but the proportions of the lead barbarian are all over the place, specially the ginormous head.

The "dwarf vs. orcs" picture is alright, specially the dwarf, but the orcs are very stiff, with distorted faces and undetailed arms.

The leaping woman in page 6 is almost perfect, but her stomach has too deep lumps, and her legs (specially the right one) are weirdly posed.

The picture on page 7 is the best of the bunch, but the armor should cover the same side of the body as the armor sleeve.

The picture on page 11 has really weird foreshortening, with the tiefling's arms being of unequal length and the dragon leg being almost elephantine.


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## Cadfan (Oct 6, 2008)

Hadrian- the rules permit it.  The barbarian already has his own stances.  Not many of them, but there's one at level 10.

There are also some other "gain a benefit for the whole encounter" type abilities.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

Phaezen said:


> All it is is a way that allows a barbarian to use multiple dailies.




Sure, but what ever happened to standard progression for all the classes? Sorry, I agree with Kamikaze. Its kludgy. Given the choice of having _rage strike_ and having it kick in at 5th level or not have it all? For me? No thanks. Give me something else.


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## Kobold Avenger (Oct 6, 2008)

I think it's evocations are fine, though I wish that a few more encounter powers had added benefits from raging (some do, most don't).

I see a potential for abuse from multiclassing some of their powers, but multiclassing into rogue or ranger gives you access to their extra damage abilities.

I find it entertaining that Tide of Blood could easily get ridiculous if there's a lot of minions around.  Even more amusing when combined with those Artificer powers that makes a party member into a "fireball".

I think there should be a feat or something that allows one use of rage strike not reliant on burning through rages.  Or maybe just the ability to recover 1 rage after an encounter if rage strike was used in the encounter.

I also don't like the potential infinite loop with the Frenzied Berzerker's Final Confrontation power.

I can tell that the Thaneborn is probably the charisma-build for the Barbarian, that's sort of leaderish.


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## ProtoClone (Oct 6, 2008)

Ooooo, thinking of multi-classing my dwarven cleric of Kord with a barbarian and calling it the zealot combo.


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## filthgrinder (Oct 6, 2008)

The only problem with Rage-Strike is it's presentation. It's the first power in the article, so it's the first thing people look at and try to grok. People look at it and go, "THIS IS THE MAIN DAMAGE DEALING MECHANIC!" when it's not. It's just a way for a barbarian to use mutliple dailies (LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASS CAN) without being penalized.

You get into a fight with the big baddie. You blast off a daily with the bonus you want for this fight. However, the fight turns south, and you are going to need to use some more dailies. Every other class in the game can go ahead and dip into that second daily. Your barb on the other hand would lose his current bonus. So instead, you can not just use that second daily for an attack without losing your bonus.

It's a pretty simple mechanic. Without it, you are discouraged from using multiple dailies. With it, you are now balanced with every other class in daily using.

I think if it wasn't the first thing people read and try to absorb, it wouldn't be causing a problem. It's NOT the main damage dealing mechanic, so don't worry about it.


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## zsek320 (Oct 6, 2008)

I agree with most of what the thread is saying. Rage Strike is klunky as is and my main beef is that you cannot use it until level 5. 

My quick fix is that if you are bloodied you are considered raging for the purpose of powers requiring you to be in a rage.... that way if you really want to you could use your level 1 daily at level 1.

I don't see a problem with paragon multiclassing for howling strike. You are spending 4 feats and missing out on the goodness that paragon paths give... Although the quick fix is require weilding a 2-handed weapon... 
I am more concerned with having an entire encounter long buff on... at level one Swift Panther giving +2 speed and shift 2 squares seems very good to me... 

The feel of the barbarian seems to be there. They take damage and deal damage. I am especially a fan of the level 20 daily of the frenzied Berserker, thats the kind of thing I think of when I think barbarian... Sure it can lead to constant back and forth... but if your DM is going to constantly have the mob attack back then they are dumb.

I am excited to see how the barbarian plays out in some play tests.


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## GorTeX (Oct 6, 2008)

how about:
Rage Strike
at-will, primal weapon
standard action Melee weapon
Requirement: you must be raging
target: one Creature
Effect: Before the attack, you may expend an unused rage power to increase the damage (see below)
Attack: Str vs AC
Hit:  1[w] + str + con (increase to 2[w] at 21st level)
If you expended a rage power, add the following damage depending on the level of the rage power you used
1st level   +1[w]
5th level   +2[w]
9th level  +3[w]
15th level +4[w]
19th level +5[w]
25th level +6[w]
29th level +7[w]

Miss; half damage


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## amysrevenge (Oct 6, 2008)

Regarding using Rage Strike before 5th level.

Two words:  Veteran's Armor (AV)


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## amysrevenge (Oct 6, 2008)

This, or something similar (1[W] + 1d6 + Str, increase to 1[W] + 2d6 + Str at 11 and 2[W] + 3d6 at 21) might be a decent workaround.  But then it just duplicates Howling Strike...

Maybe combine Rage Strike and Howling Strike into one power, and come up with a different At-Will Attack 1 altogether.



GorTeX said:


> how about:
> Rage Strike
> at-will, primal weapon
> standard action Melee weapon
> ...


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## Lakoda (Oct 6, 2008)

The strikers in the PHB1 have bonus damage dice from a class feature but Barbarians have powers that just do more damage.  This will create a multi-classing problem when other classes swap for these powers to boost their damage.  The powers should really only do this extra damage when accompanied with a class feature so it cannot be gained via multi-classing.  Multi-classing to a Ranger, Rogue or Warlock only provides a boost to damage once per encounter but to a Barbarian gives you the ability to boost damage for each power swapped.  This is opposed to what I thought multi-classing was about in 4th edition, although I don't want to get into the multi-classing debate here, just pointing out the difference I noticed.


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## jensun (Oct 6, 2008)

Wonka said:


> Just cause Conan has a low Int



What would possibly make you think this?


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## Cadfan (Oct 6, 2008)

Lakoda- I had a similar thought, but upon review it isn't that bad.  The encounter and daily powers are about standard in terms of damage.  Its the synergy with raging and boosting one's at wills that pumps up the damage, and thats not available without a paragon path multiclass.  And at that point, its not an issue in my opinion- you've earned the damage boost.


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## WalterKovacs (Oct 6, 2008)

First of all, they have a bit of a disconnect in terms of class role. The defender/striker mix [with apparently some leader bits] fits the Barbarian. The Fighter can already do some serious damage ... and strikers already make themselves targets by being so powerful/annoying.

The barbarian has the HP of a defender, but the AC of a striker. Very Two Weapon Ranger in terms of AC [and the Two Weapon Ranger has the HP boost as a free feat], basically needing to spend feat slots to up his AC. Of course, willingly keeping the AC relatively low makes him a better defender. He'd still look at Dex as a fourth [or maybe third] stat because (a) Chain/Scale Spec uses Dex, (b) If he goes Blade, Spear or Flail he'd want Dex for feats, (c) Reflex is more important than Will.

On the subject of multi-classing ... with the way that Rogues and Rangers have their restrictions on powers based on weapon types ... perhaps the Barbarian HAS to use two handed weapons [or versatile weapons in two hands]. Rogues already have the issue of being Dex based [although they can go with Str as a secondary build, and there is at least one race to support maxing both out] and with light blades, it becomes nearly impossible to get versatile or two handed, making sneak attack auto-fail. Ranger still gets Quarry though, but it involves juggling around the weapons. Outside of a Dwarven Warlock with a Pact Hammer, there wouldn't be much problem for Warlock's multiclassing into Barb.

In general though, the main "concept" appears to be taking the Paladin: Daily = Smite idea and applying it to Rage. This means that the daily attack has to last all encounter long [since a Rage should be lasting]. Because of that, they need Rage Strike as a "fix" to the problem of people wanting to do daily damage without having to replace their ongoing effect (another option is just having the ongoing effect be "you may choose not to start this effect, and instead continue the effect of your previous rage". Still a bit clunky, and might not do as much damage, but eliminates the class feature.

The big thing is, replacing the "xd6" bonus damage dice with just doing more damage overall, which is where the whole Multiclassing "problem" comes in. They do have the "stuff happens while raging" effect as well.

Stuff I did like though: Temp hit points for killing people, the free charge when killing someone and the free attack on a critical. All those things are nice powers that help support the Striker/Defender hybrid.

One possible decision ... flat out make it a "hybrid" and, therefore, accept it will do less damage than other striker classes. Now, there are still some things it has over the rest. The ability to wield a two handed weapon, and thus have extremely high damage output based on the weapon die. I do like the encounter power that has VERY high damage, but an effect of giving the opponent's a better chance of hitting you. That kind of "defence for damage" trade off is very nice.

They could perhaps change the way that rages work. With having the rages as the daily power gives them a way of limiting the rages per day [ala 3rd edition] if the barb is required to be in a rage to be effective it does create some problems. One way would be to have a class feature to "enter" a rage, but still has a limit on it. The Paladin has lay on hands which lets him use his surges a different way a number of times per day ... perhaps a way to "enter a rage" a certain number of times per day without having to expend a daily power.

Here is an alternative means for raging, treated a bit like:

Enrage
Daily Power/Special [Usable a number of times per day equal to CON mod]
Personal, Rage
Minor Action
Effect: You may spend one healing surge. You do not regain hit points, instead you gain temporary hitpoints equal to your CON mod + 1/2 level. For the rest of the encounter, you are considered to be in a rage.

Then you have rage be a way to basically represent the bonus damage of the striker class.

For the Charisma based Barbarian, perhaps a similar power called "Fury" that also causes you to rage, but in a different way, based on your charisma.

Having a basic means to get rages per day, and then the daily powers have various effects that also result in you entering a rage. [you can also have utility stances that represent the various sprits, etc].

The ideas are there, but they need some work. I think the Rage as Smite idea just doesn't work though. Ultimately, a barbarian should probably be able to rage just about every encounter ... it's one of the thing most closely associated with the barbarian. Sure, smiting is something associated with Paladin's, but something that lasts all encounter probably shouldn't be a daily power.

The rogue requires combat advantage, warlock and ranger need to "target" the closest enemy in site ... there should be some condition for a barbarian to get his "rage bonus" for damage. Perhaps he rages as an immediate reaction when hit, so he has to basically take damage before he can start raging [although he may have other powers that let him rage, especially useful if you go to 0 HP and get healed back up, because you'd need to restart your rage]. The needing to take damage encourages the minor in defender as you'd need to make yourself a bit of a target at least to trigger the rage. That idea is already in some of the other powers that encounrage people to attack you.


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## The Little Raven (Oct 6, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> I think rage strike is neat in concept, but kinda dumb at 1st level. So do I get Rage Strike as 1 At-Will and I pick one more At-Will like the Warlock? If so, that sucks because I have one less At-Will then everyone else.




What? Everyone gets 2 at-will powers, and the Barbarian looks to be no different. The only problem is that Rage Strike is so situational that it won't be useful at all until 5th level, but I suspect that the feedback they'll get on it will get them to fix up that error. Perhaps they'll add a Rage ability that puts you into a rage without granting any particular bonuses, so you can use Rage Strike from 1st level.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

WalterKovacs said:


> Here is an alternative means for raging, treated a bit like:
> 
> Enrage
> Daily Power/Special [Usable a number of times per day equal to CON mod]
> ...




Now that right there is elegant rules design. The only problem I see with this is they basically need to redo everything they already have. Personally, I think its a much better way to go. Bravo!


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## Stogoe (Oct 6, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> What? Everyone gets 2 at-will powers, and the Barbarian looks to be no different. The only problem is that Rage Strike is so situational that it won't be useful at all until 5th level, but I suspect that the feedback they'll get on it will get them to fix up that error. Perhaps they'll add a Rage ability that puts you into a rage without granting any particular bonuses, so you can use Rage Strike from 1st level.



I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.  Its sole purpose is to enable the nova that every other class can do for free.  It's not a "Whee! Damage!" button.  It's an "I like my current rage but I need damage" button.  Everyone who's put up a 'fix' on this thread seems not to realize this.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> What? Everyone gets 2 at-will powers, and the Barbarian looks to be no different. The only problem is that Rage Strike is so situational that it won't be useful at all until 5th level, but I suspect that the feedback they'll get on it will get them to fix up that error. Perhaps they'll add a Rage ability that puts you into a rage without granting any particular bonuses, so you can use Rage Strike from 1st level.




Um, same thing. If they can't use Rage Strike until 5th Level, they would be minus 1 at will power until 5th Level. So technically, they'd have only 1.


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## Nahat Anoj (Oct 6, 2008)

GorTeX said:


> how about:
> Rage Strike
> at-will, primal weapon
> standard action Melee weapon
> ...



Something like this gets my vote.  I might make it a minor action and remove the half-damage effect, so that it could be used in conjunction with encounter powers, but I like the idea of giving up an unused Rage to hit harder.  Basically, remove the "only while raged" requirement.


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## Deverash (Oct 6, 2008)

amysrevenge said:


> Regarding using Rage Strike before 5th level.
> 
> Two words:  Veteran's Armor (AV)




Exactly.  It's not that it's not usable before 5th level.  It's not _innately_ usable before 5th level.  They simply left space for ways to recharge daily powers.

And thanks for finding that item, I knew I had read something that let you recharge a daily power somewhere.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

Stogoe said:


> I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.  Its sole purpose is to enable the nova that every other class can do for free.  It's not a "Whee! Damage!" button.  It's an "I like my current rage but I need damage" button.  Everyone who's put up a 'fix' on this thread seems not to realize this.




Instead of being abrasive about it, how about you post an example of what you mean?


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## Kishin (Oct 6, 2008)

Wonka said:


> Just cause Conan has a low Int, doesnt mean the controlling player does




Anyone who thinks Conan had a lot Int didn't read much Conan. 

Anyway, I very much like the style of the class, and particular the unique spin daily Rages-as-encounter-perma-buffs, although the latter now makes me feel less cool for using a similar concept in the draft of a 4E Incarnate I've been working on. Preempted! Curse you, WoTC, curse you!

As folks have already said, AC could become an issue, with light armor and no priority on Dex or Int. It essentially turns it into a race between the Barbarian's ability to acquire temp HP and the opposing monsters ability to damage him, and I feel like after a certain point, the latter is going to quickly outpace for the former. By the same token, a bunch of Barbarians picking up a full progression of armor feats doesn't seem entirely thematic even though a half feral war machine in plate armor is a pretty striking visual.

Pressing Strike is super, super good. Its like the ilicit love child of Deft Strike and Tide of Iron, bearing all of their strengths and none of their weaknesses in a very comic book origin story fashion. I'm not sure why the shift should be in there at all, as from a theme standpoint, it just makes sense for it to be a push + damage.

Recuperating Strike is also quite good, but likely the Barbarian is going to need to spam it like crazy if their AC turns out to be garbae.

Avalanche Strike does as much as Brute Strike but is an encounter power, but is one of the few 4E powers that actively penalizes you for its use. A 1st level Barbarian using it is basically going to take a free hit from any enemy around him, since he'll end up with someting like 10 AC for the round.


These are just a handful of first impressions, though. I'll have to put it through its paces alongside the rest to be really sure of how it all plays out.

Also, regarding the comment of the Barbarian potentially dealing less damage than other strikers due to the lack of a quarry/curse mechanic: There is always the possibility of baking that sort of damage bonus (1d6) into all abilities used while raging (although again, it really puts the pressure on the barbarian to use his/her dailies), as they did with Pressing Strike.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see other Barbarian Paragon Paths designed in a fashion similar to the Wizard ones, with an emphasis on recovering expended dailies, either.

Also, I'm rather intrigued about the thaneborn barbarian. From the brief impression given, it feels like its going to go the route of Striker-with-a-dab-of-Leader, which could be fun.

Also, put down for the following statline guesses:
Goliaths: +2 Str, +2 Con (This one seems fairly obvious)
Half-Orcs: +2 Str, +2 Wis (I can't justify Dex)



			
				JVisigatis said:
			
		

> Sure, but what ever happened to standard progression for all the classes? Sorry, I agree with Kamikaze. Its kludgy. Given the choice of having _rage strike_ and having it kick in at 5th level or not have it all? For me? No thanks. Give me something else.




I don't mind stepping outside the box if it allows for interesting mechanical design, and honestly, you're going to have to after awhile, or that box is going to get awful crowded.

And seriously, was this such a big deal in 3.5E when it is approximately x1000 times more prevalent from the onset of the system?


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## The Little Raven (Oct 6, 2008)

Stogoe said:


> Its sole purpose is to enable the nova that every other class can do for free.




Which is a balance for the fact that ALL of their dailies provide an encounter-length effect on top of a daily-level attack power, unlike every other class.

Brute Strike - 3[W] + Str damage. Reliable.
Swift Panther Rage - 3[W] + Str damage. Also gain a +2 to speed, and be able to shift 2 squares as a move action for the rest of the encounter.

That bonus is frakkin' awesome.


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## Zsig (Oct 6, 2008)

Ok, sorry about my rambling... but here I go again.

I think (now, after reading this thread) they should just scratch this Rage Strike altogether.

I got 3 reasons.

1) Unnecessary: there's really no need for this feature to be there. You could simply make an exception to the "Effect" clause on the barb's dailies to allow you whether activating another daily would change your current rage state. This way you'd use another Rage Attack and decide whether you want or not to be under the effects of the second Rage, or keep the first one.

On the same note, they (the designers) should focus on encouraging you to spend your dailies throughout the encounters, and not all of them in the same one. Barbarians got plenty of stuff that gets better when you're raging, which means, they'd work better if you spend them between encounters.

2) Confusing: many people won't understand the feature. Many here didn't. I keep hearing that 4E simplificates the game, where in fact I had no real problem with 3.X when it came to rules, honestly. But if you claim that your new system is gonna simplificate things, you gotta stand up for it. I had a really hard time explaining my players stuff like Healing Surges vs. Second Wind, Bursts vs. Blasts, even milestones, Warlocks/Rangers contraditory mechanics (Prime Shot vs. Mark/Quarry). The barbarian has lots of stuff like that that's overcomplicated for no reason.

3) Misleading: Rage Strike looks like one thing, where it isn't. It looks like a "neat" feature that adds more power to you, or at that least that's what it seems when you read "at-will" written on it, where in fact it's just a tool to fix a problem... that IMO doesn't even exist.


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## The Little Raven (Oct 6, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> Um, same thing. If they can't use Rage Strike until 5th Level, they would be minus 1 at will power until 5th Level. So technically, they'd have only 1.




Sorry I wasn't as clear as I could have been. Looking at the sample build given, they have given them two at-will powers, neither of which is Rage Strike, so it seems they get two at-wills and one situational at-will for a total of three.


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## balard (Oct 6, 2008)

I think that the barbarian is VERY good. Maybe broken, but i think that the ranger already is anyway... It really make me wants to buy the PHB2(but being a pdf makes the whole DDI thing a no-no for me)

About the rage strike, it took me 10 seconds to guess its function. But in the real book, they have to word it better, and explain the finality(if you want to go nova like everyone else, you can. Rage Strike to the death). But i have a suggestion. Rage Strike modifies the rage, add some damage(like +1/2|W|), and negates every other detail of the power. This way, every rage has two mode: high damage and stance-like effects for the encounter, or very high damage. And its useful from the first level onwards


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## Andor (Oct 6, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> What? Everyone gets 2 at-will powers, and the Barbarian looks to be no different. The only problem is that Rage Strike is so situational that it won't be useful at all until 5th level, but I suspect that the feedback they'll get on it will get them to fix up that error. Perhaps they'll add a Rage ability that puts you into a rage without granting any particular bonuses, so you can use Rage Strike from 1st level.




Rage strike is a class feature, not one of his chosen at-will powers. 

I wonder about his damage potential since he's the first striker we've seen that has no floating damage bonus like the curse or sneak attack. 

Otoh he's tough, and seems to have an absurd number of ways to knock people down, almost controllerish that way.

The Rage strike furor shows a weakness of the 4e writing style where nothing is explained. If they just _told us_ that it's a mechanic to allow the Barb to spam dailies like everyone else can there wouldn't be all this confusion. 

I do think that the Barbarian is going to find MCing into fighter in order to pick up stances very attractive. 

Thunderfury Rage (15 daily) needs some editing. They should either pull the healing keyword, or actually give it some healing.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm going to do a summary of what I've seen on the threads so far.

1) The chainmail must have problem. The reality is chainmail does seem like a gimey feat right now, which means the balance of the class around low AC is flawed.

Solution: Class Ability: "Natural Toughness". Can add Con to AC instead of dex or Int. Does not stack with heavy armors.

2) Rage Strike encounters novaing. The big question here is, and the one that needs the most playtesting, how good are barbarians when they aren't raging? I agree that Rage Strike encourages novaing in that if I'm another class and I use two dailies in a fight, the effect is just as good as if I use them in seperate fights for the most part. But rage strike gives an extra benefit in terms of damage. Now people can argue how useful that benefit is back and forth, but newer players are going to see that, and they are going to want to blow their dailies for big damage, and then they are going to want to rest.

3) Barbarian at-will powers are too good for multiclassing. I actually don't think so on this one. Howling Strike is no twin strike in my opinion. If the rogue takes it, he's having to use a strength attack instead of a dex attack, so he suffers a bit there. And...as others have mentioned paragon multiclassing kind of blows right now. So if I'm giving up paragon paths for barbarian at-wills....is that really a problem?

3) No ability to rage without dailies. I agree there should be a mechanic to allow rage without dailies. I would say when they are bloodied is easiest enough. It lets the barbarian rage for some general benefits, but doesn't give him the power of the daily rages.

4) Striker with defender hitpoints. I absolutely applaud this. I do NOT want the classes to become so straightjacketed by rules that we sacrifice good class design for conformity. This was the problem with monsters in 3e, writers found it hard to make good monsters that had to conform to the formula.

Now I'm not saying the barbarian is currently balanced with defender HP, but I'm sure it could be. But I do not want roles to become the tomb for good class design, and I'm pleased to see WOTC is willing to push the envelope a bit on this one.


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## 1of3 (Oct 6, 2008)

The most simple way to solve the Rage Strike confusion would be to directly include it in every description of a Rage power.

For first level:
_Effect: You enter the [CREATURE] rage. (...) You can choose not the enter [CREATURE] rage, when you are raging already._


For higher levels:
_Effect: You can either deal +x[W] damage (half on miss) with this power or enter the [CREATURE] rage. (...)_


(This formulation would allow to take the extra damage without raging first, but that's OK with me.)


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## Jack99 (Oct 6, 2008)

Does anyone know if the playtest document will be updated with any changes during the testing period (or at least until the end of this month, where the full issue of eDragon will come out), or will we be "stuck" with this version until March?


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## IncompleteUserNa (Oct 6, 2008)

1of3 said:


> The most simple way to solve the Rage Strike confusion would be to directly include it in every description of a Rage power.
> 
> For first level:
> _Effect: You enter the [CREATURE] rage. (...) You can choose not the enter [CREATURE], when you are raging already._
> ...





Making it an effect isn't exactly what you're going for since effects apply whether the attack hits or misses, but I like the idea of scrapping Rage Strike and rolling it into the powers, i.e tack something like this onto the end:


Special: If you are already raging when you use this evocation, you can instead make an attack that deals x[W] damage (miss: half damage). You do not gain the benefits of this evocation's effect or end the effect of your current rage.


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## Jack99 (Oct 6, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> 4) Striker with defender hitpoints. I absolutely applaud this. I do NOT want the classes to become so straightjacketed by rules that we sacrifice good class design for conformity. This was the problem with monsters in 3e, writers found it hard to make good monsters that had to conform to the formula.
> 
> Now I'm not saying the barbarian is currently balanced with defender HP, but I'm sure it could be. But I do not want roles to become the tomb for good class design, and I'm pleased to see WOTC is willing to push the envelope a bit on this one.




I just wanted to second this. I really do not understand why people want every single class of the same type to be so much alike. If diversity is possible without sacrifizing balance, then by all means, let's have it!


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## Larrin (Oct 6, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> Um, same thing. If they can't use Rage Strike until 5th Level, they would be minus 1 at will power until 5th Level. So technically, they'd have only 1.




Rage strike is a class feature, NOT an at will attack.  You get your two at wills AND you get rage strike, just the same as how a wizard gets two at wills AND 4 cantrips.  Rage strike is a barbarian cantrip (.....well not really, but its the same idea)

consdier the suggested build.

Suggested Feat: Weapon Focus
Suggested Skills: Athletics, Endurance, Perception
Suggested At-Will Powers: howling strike,
recuperating strike
Suggested Encounter Power: avalanche strike
Suggested Daily Power: bloodhunt rage

NOTE: he has two at wills, neither of which is rage strike. (compare to warlock build advice, its "chosen for you" at wills are listed)

Rage strike isn't nearly as klunky or blatantly unfair as people seem to be saying, IMO.  Its a simple idea.  You are in rage. Burn a different rage to do this attack.  This is so you can do big attacks, while keeping the rage you have.  If you don't like it, don't use it, and you will never suffer, but if it wasn't there, it would be annoying that you couldn't use another daily level damage without leaving the rage you want to stay in.

As for not using it until level 5: THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM.  Seriously.  You can't use it before level 5, BUT you don't need it before level 5, you won't even want to use it before level 5, and its not such a big deal that you will in ANY CONCEIVABLE WAY be inconvenienced not being able to use it before level 5.  However, what if, say, half-orcs can rage as a racial ability.  Well then orcs can use it at level 1. What if there are magical items that let you rage, well then you can use this ability before level 5.  Anything is possible, so the fact you get Rage strike from level 1 means that if you somehow enter a rage via non-class methods, you can still use it.  I seriously can not see anyway in which this is, or could be, a problem.


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## Obryn (Oct 6, 2008)

I guess I'm not seeing a problem with Rage Strike.  To me, it's just a shorthand.

The designers _could_ have instead put a Special line into all Rages.  Something like...

*Special:* If you are already in a Rage, you can expend this Daily power in a single attack, doing X[W] damage.  You gain no other benefits from this use of the Rage, and you stay in your current Rage uninterrupted.

Rather than throw that into each and every power, they made it a class feature.  There's no mechanical difference between the two approaches; just arguments about 'elegance' that could be made on both sides of the equation.

-O


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## infocynic (Oct 6, 2008)

So, fun things ... a Minotaur Barb with an oversized Executioner's Axe gets a 2d6 Brutal 2 High Crit weapon. Sounds like a great choice for a barb. 
I build this as
18/18/14/8/10/13 [you may switch the int and wis if you like]
Heroic feats:
Level 1: Chain mail prof
Level 2: W Prof E Axe (optionally switch w/1)
Level 4: W Focus Axes
Level 6: ??? barb-only feat? Something with +attack while raging maybe? I could hope. Toughness is good too.
Level 8: Scale prof
Level 10: See level 6.
Paragon:
Level 11: Scale spec. Optionally retrain level 6 or 10 feat for Back to the Wall or Blood Thirst. 
Rest of paragon: pick up Lightning reflexes and iron will, there's a few other choices like danger sense, but not a whole lot I'm dying to get.
Epic:
Axe mastery
Triumphant Attack
... 

All I know is that 9[W] on a 2d6 brutal 2 is 81 damage on average.  While that isn't something you can do all the time, it has some attraction.


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## IncompleteUserNa (Oct 6, 2008)

Obryn said:


> I guess I'm not seeing a problem with Rage Strike.  To me, it's just a shorthand.
> 
> The designers _could_ have instead put a Special line into all Rages.  Something like...
> 
> ...




The number of people confused and upset about rage strike suggests that there is a key distinction. The first time you read the rage strike statblock, it isn't clear what it does, when it does what it does, or why you would need it to do what it does. Once you grind on it for a while you have a Eureka moment, which is kind of fun, but making it clearer is worth inflating the wordcount slightly.


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## TerraDave (Oct 6, 2008)

Wonka said:


> Just cause Conan has a low Int, doesnt mean the controlling player does




Looking at it again, maybe not that bad afterall...

but ragestrike just seems uneeded. I could see it if rages were _encounter_ powers (though it would have to be toned down). But one goal of 4E was to give charecters more durability. Having a charecter that burns through all its dailies like that, and can only do its "main thing" once a day, would seem to go against that goal.


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## Larrin (Oct 6, 2008)

TerraDave said:


> Having a charecter that burns through all its dailies like that, and can only do its "main thing" once a day, would seem to go against that goal.




Rage is not the barbarians 'main thing'.  Charging and hacking is its 'main thing' and it gets to do that all day long.  Raging is a significant boost to the charging and hacking, and is therefore limited.  The barbarian has no more incentive to burn through his dailies than a fighter or rogue.  Less even, since in order to burn through them he must forgo something nifty in the future.  If anything Barbarians are the least motivated to  'go nova', and without rage strike, they'd be super un-motivated, which is  not at all barbarian-like.  This way the at least have a choice, pure damage now or useful rage later.  Its a line that the barbarian must walk, and one that players will learn to use to their benefit.


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 6, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> 4) Striker with defender hitpoints. I absolutely applaud this. I do NOT want the classes to become so straightjacketed by rules that we sacrifice good class design for conformity. This was the problem with monsters in 3e, writers found it hard to make good monsters that had to conform to the formula.



 What are you say exactly?
That because 3rd edition did'nt follow the creation rules monsters turned out unbalanced (That Damn Crab for instance)
Are are you saying ther ooposite? But then I say That Damn Crab.

Writers made broken monsters that didn't conform to formula too much.

I will agree that Barb is awesome as a hybrid Class: Striker with a dash of defender (opposite what the Fighter is basically; a Defender with Striker tendencies).


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## Skyscraper (Oct 6, 2008)

Raging Strike is not an appealing power to me. You need to burn you cool, strongest powers (dailies) each time you use it. It's like a heartbreak each time you use that power.

Plus, all other classes get their class-defining abilities at level 1. Not the Barb, he gets it at level 5. 5 levels can be a long wait depending on how often you play and how fast you level.

Trading a level 1 rage power for Raging Strike is doubly frustrating, since you get more out of your level 1 rage power than from Raging Strike, except if you want to keep you first rage power benefits going.

This is really a bad mechanic overall IMO, and this is the first class in any D&D edition that i read and say to myself: i would never pick this class for my PC.

Sky


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## MrMyth (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> It's not broken because for the barb to do 6W+6, he's got to _hit with all 6_.




Well, here's the numbers I'm looking at, and the reason that power seems absurd. 

Let's assume we're level 30 characters fighting someone with AC 45. I am, admittedly, not bothering accounting for critical hits in my numbers - but given that crits will generally be pretty darn good for the barbarian, with his free attack and the fact that taking 6 attacks makes the odds of a crit rather high, I think they'll tend to work in his favor anyway. 

Level 29 Rogue Daily: Assassin's Point
Assumptions: Iron Armbands of Power +6, Weapon Focus, +6 Radiant Rapier, Backstabber, Dex 30, Str 24, Brutal Rogue, Kensai, Combat Advantage. 
 Attack: +37 vs AC 
 Damage: 17d8+49; Miss: Half Damage.
 Average Damage: 104

Level 29 Ranger Daily: Three-in-One Shot
Assumptions: Bracers of Archery +6, Weapon Focus, +6 Radiant Greatbow, Lethal Hunter, Dex 30, Wis 24, Pit Fighter, Combat Advantage. 
 Attack: +35 vs AC, +35/40 vs AC, +35/40 vs AC
 Damage: 2d12+38 per attack, +3d8; Miss: Half Damage.
 Average Damage: 133

Level 27 Hurricane of Blades
Assumptions: Iron Armbands of Power +6, Weapon Focus, +6 Radiant Mordenkrad, Str 30, Con 24, Hammer Rhythm, Kensai, Combat Advantage, Power Attack.
 Attack: +34 vs AC: 2d6+44 (Brutal 1); Miss: 7 Damage. 
 Average Damage: 177

A level 27 Encounter power simply shouldn't outclass Level 29 Dailies. And, yes, this is with stacking lots of damage so each attack hits hard - but that is generally what strikers will be doing. This doesn't even consider plenty of other boosts that a truly optimized character could achieve.

Still, lets see how it looks if we avoid multiclassing and stick to PHB feats and equipment. 

Level 29 Rogue Daily: Assassin's Point
Assumptions: Weapon Focus, +6 Rapier, Backstabber, Dex 30, Str 24, Brutal Rogue, Combat Advantage. 
 Attack: +36 vs AC 
 Damage: 17d8+33; Miss: Half Damage.
 Average Damage: 88

Level 29 Ranger Daily: Three-in-One Shot
Assumptions: Weapon Focus, +6 Longbow, Lethal Hunter, Dex 30, Combat Advantage. 
 Attack: +35 vs AC, +35/40 vs AC, +35/40 vs AC
 Damage: 2d10+19 per attack, +3d8; Miss: Half Damage.
 Average Damage: 87

Level 27 Hurricane of Blades
Assumptions: Weapon Focus, +6 Maul, Str 30, Con 24, Hammer Rhythm, Combat Advantage, Power Attack.
 Attack: +33 vs AC: 2d6+28; Miss: 7 Damage. 
 Average Damage: 118

Still in the lead. The daily powers seem to reliably be doing 75% of the damage of this encounter power. Clearly, something is off. 

Now, you can trump it with powers that hit multiple targets - area effect powers, Hail of Arrows, etc. But spreading out damage is generally less effective (and you aren't always able to get multiple targets, thus mitigating such powers), which is why the rules seem ok with letting multi-target powers do more overall damage than single-target powers. They just don't do more damage to a single foe. 

Similarly, if the barbarian is surrounded by 6 enemies, there are countless lower level 'close burst 1' powers that technically do the same amount of damage. But Hurricane of Blades can be unloaded into a single target, which is simply absurd for damage potential - it would be impressive as a daily power, and is downright insane as an encounter power. 

How to fix it? As mentioned above, divvying up that damage among multiple targets is more acceptable. Perhaps give him 6 attacks, but no more than 3 can go at a single target? I suspect something along those lines will work best - or at least provide a start to balancing the power. I like the concept of it, but an encounter power really shouldn't be the highest single-target damage power in the game.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

Larrin said:


> As for not using it until level 5: THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM.




Well, I think it is a problem. It's nothing like any of the other classes have. There are a lot of other ways to do it. Like I said, I think its a cool ability. Its application needs work. The fact that so many people are having issues grasping the concept makes it a problem. I wouldn't hate the class if it stayed this way, but at the very least it needs to be explained better.


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## MrMyth (Oct 6, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> 9. This class doesn't mark, but its AC is so low that its almost like its marking everyone adjacent to it anyways.  Seriously, a starting AC of 14 is pretty likely, and by level 30 that's only going to improve to about a 24 unless you invest in chainmail or put points in dex.




AC 24 is pretty inaccurate for level 30 (though your point itself remains intact.) 

10 (base) + 15 (level) + 5 (elderhide) + 6 (enhancement) +1 (dex or int) = AC 37. Now, that is still low enough that enemies of his level are going to hit him pretty much all the time. Chainmail bumps it up to AC 43, which is a pretty enormous jump for 1 feat - though it is still low enough to get hit pretty often. If he throws 4 feats at the problem, so he can get platemail and armor specialization, he's looking at AC 46, and suddenly has a 50/50 shot of getting hit by most enemies - he may have had to put aside some nice other choice in return for those armor feats.

I suspect chainmail will be almost impossible to pass up at higher levels. For a barbarian that completely dumps Dex and Int, it makes a difference of 3 AC at Heroic, 5 AC at Paragon, and 6 AC at Epic. (Since level 11 and 21 will boost your Dex and Int.) 6 AC for 1 feat is an excellent trade - I can't imagine turning it down. Maybe add in Scale and Armor Specialization for 2 more points of AC, along with no armor check or speed penalties. 

Now, for a character who starts with some Dex, it isn't as urgent a feat. A starting Dex of 14 means at level 1, Chainmail is only +1 AC over Hide. I'm sure the barbarian will have plenty of better offensive choices to spend his feats on for a while. In the end, no matter what he does, his AC isn't going to be so great - but his high hp and access to countless temps (and Resist All from certain powers) will help with that quite a bit. What it won't help with is the conditions he gets plagued by - saving throw boosts are quite valuable for this guy, I imagine. 

But back him up with a Paladin and a Cleric - to keep him safe and healed and give him free saving throws when needed - and he definitely looks likely to completely destroy the enemies in his path.


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## Phaezen (Oct 6, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> Well, I think it is a problem. It's nothing like any of the other classes have. There are a lot of other ways to do it. Like I said, I think its a cool ability. Its application needs work. The fact that so many people are having issues grasping the concept makes it a problem. I wouldn't hate the class if it stayed this way, but at the very least it needs to be explained better.




The thing is, it is not an ability that other classes need, they can spam thier dailies as they see fit.  A barbarian's daily attack powers all have an ongoing effect, but you can only have one at a time.  This ability of thiers allows them the choice to keep thier current rage (gained from using a daily attack power) up while gaining the advantage of the damage dealt by using a daily attack.  The fact that it is useless until level 5, is besides the point as all classes only have 1 daily attack power until level 5.

Phaezen


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## GoodKingJayIII (Oct 6, 2008)

Lots of great analysis on this thread.  Thanks guys.

As it stands, my initial look at the barbarian is that we have a very, very strong 1st-level class.  Huge hit points, lots of temporary hit-point opportunities, and excellent at-wills:  sign me up.  Damage does not seem out of line with other strikers, but I am concerned about the hit points.  With high Str/Con, heavy armors are a no-brainer and should be easy to achieve without much fuss.  I think we'll be seeing many barbs taking Scale proficiency by Level 4, maybe as early as level 2.

Rage Strike is just... whacky.  At first glance, it looks absolutely gross.  And maybe it is, but it's hard to say without seeing it in action.  The inability to use it until 5th level is not a balancing factor for all those damage dice.  What I'd really like to see is an analysis of Barbarian vs. Ranger vs. Rogue for _most consistent_ damage.  Say, average damage over 1000 hits.  I think that's a more telling statistic than simply looking at the amount of damage a barbarian can do in one hit, or even one fight.  I'm imagining some very ruinous combos with Minotaurs and Oversized executioner axes, but maybe that's just my irrational power creep fears rearing their ugly heads.

I think a Human Ranger/Paragon multiclass Barbarian could be a very interesting combo.

That's all I have to add for now.


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## Merlin the Tuna (Oct 6, 2008)

Gah, so much gnashing of teeth and so many odd workarounds for Rage Strike.  Wouldn't the easier, more elegant way of doing it just be removing the "Must already be raging" condition?  Trading an unused Rage power for the damage seems Rage-y enough to me.

*shrug*


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## Mengu (Oct 6, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> 1) The chainmail must have problem. The reality is chainmail does seem like a gimey feat right now, which means the balance of the class around low AC is flawed.
> 
> Solution: Class Ability: "Natural Toughness". Can add Con to AC instead of dex or Int. Does not stack with heavy armors.




Agreed. But since there is also a Charisma based barbarian build, it may be better to say constitution or charisma, instead of just constitution, which would favor one build over the other.



Stalker0 said:


> 2) Rage Strike encounters novaing. The big question here is, and the one that needs the most playtesting, how good are barbarians when they aren't raging?




Not nearly as good as when they are raging. If I was playing a Barbarian, I would never waste a daily on a nova attack. You want to be able to rage in as many encounters as possible. Which makes Rage Strike a rather pointless power. There are plenty of other ways of getting big attacks: items, action points, etc. Rage Strike can be scrapped, and it will have no adverse effect on the class.



Stalker0 said:


> 3) Barbarian at-will powers are too good for multiclassing. I actually don't think so on this one. Howling Strike is no twin strike in my opinion. If the rogue takes it, he's having to use a strength attack instead of a dex attack, so he suffers a bit there. And...as others have mentioned paragon multiclassing kind of blows right now. So if I'm giving up paragon paths for barbarian at-wills....is that really a problem?




Again, agreed.



Stalker0 said:


> 3) No ability to rage without dailies. I agree there should be a mechanic to allow rage without dailies. I would say when they are bloodied is easiest enough. It lets the barbarian rage for some general benefits, but doesn't give him the power of the daily rages.




There needs to be some clean way to word that. Dragoborns already gain some nice benefits from being bloodied. With all the ways of gaining Temp HP's, that bloodied mechanic can get out of hand. And I wouldn't want people not healing up much between encounters so they can quickly rage. 

In general, it does suck that you can only rage once per day for levels 1-4. My players can go through 6-7 encounters in one day, and 1/6 or 1/7 encounters doesn't seem enough. I'd change the rage mechanic so every time a Barbarian uses an action point to gain an extra action, they rage. This would make it more controlled in frequency, and more of a tactical choice for the player.



Stalker0 said:


> 4) Striker with defender hitpoints. I absolutely applaud this. I do NOT want the classes to become so straightjacketed by rules that we sacrifice good class design for conformity. This was the problem with monsters in 3e, writers found it hard to make good monsters that had to conform to the formula.
> 
> Now I'm not saying the barbarian is currently balanced with defender HP, but I'm sure it could be. But I do not want roles to become the tomb for good class design, and I'm pleased to see WOTC is willing to push the envelope a bit on this one.




They have not made any declarations for PC classes for HP's, defenses, healing surges, or anything other game mechanic, based on role. I have no doubt they intend to fully utilize that flexibility both as a design tool and a balancing tool.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 6, 2008)

Skyscraper said:


> Raging Strike is not an appealing power to me. You need to burn you cool, strongest powers (dailies) each time you use it. It's like a heartbreak each time you use that power.




I think that's a large part of the strong negative reaction to Rage Strike.  Someone else mentioned that the extra damage isn't worth the loss of the effect; in most cases I disagree (25th level being the exception).  It's not that it isn't worth it, it's that it doesn't seem as cool.

I think a decent compromise is allow a flat +2[W] for Rage Strike (possibly increased with a feat) and allow the effect to happen as well, without gaining the rage ability.  This has the added side effect of allowing WotC to play with the damages for the Rages a little more.


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## Merlin the Tuna (Oct 6, 2008)

Mengu said:


> Not nearly as good as when they are raging. If I was playing a Barbarian, I would never waste a daily on a nova attack. You want to be able to rage in as many encounters as possible. Which makes Rage Strike a rather pointless power.



You make the assumption that all encounters are of equal threat and importance, and also that there are as many daily encounters as he has daily rages.  When circumstances _don't_ fit those criteria, it's very valuable.


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## MrMyth (Oct 6, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> Sure, but what ever happened to standard progression for all the classes? Sorry, I agree with Kamikaze. Its kludgy. Given the choice of having _rage strike_ and having it kick in at 5th level or not have it all? For me? No thanks. Give me something else.




But that's the thing - the choice isn't between _rage strike_ and some other class feature. It is being placed there to specifically address a weakness in the way the class functions. I think the concept of that is a sound one - they aren't costing you anything to put in this patch. 

That said, it _is_ clunky and I think needs some serious revision. I'm a fan of those who think working it into powers directly would be a good solution that solves many of the issues folks have with it. There are a lot of good thoughts on this thread on how to fix it.


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## Zsig (Oct 6, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> 1) The chainmail must have problem. The reality is chainmail does seem like a gimey feat right now, which means the balance of the class around low AC is flawed.
> 
> Solution: Class Ability: "Natural Toughness". Can add Con to AC instead of dex or Int. Does not stack with heavy armors.




One could simply fix that by ruling that you can only use the barbarian class features -Feral Might (including the extra encounter feature that comes with it), Rage and Rampage (maybe not Rampage as it's not that awesome)- while wearing light armor or no armor, kind of the same way rogues needs a certain kind of weapon to their Sneak Attack.


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## andarilhor (Oct 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Because Rage Strike is an at-will ability. Here's how it's supposed to go down.
> 
> Round X: Use daily rage power, make the hit. You have a benefit going.
> Round Y: Use Rage Strike to do mondo damage each round.
> Round Z: Profit.




By my understanding of the rage strike power funcions like this:

Round 1: Use a daily, enter rages
Round 2: spend another daily, uses rage strike, make a lot of damage instead of gaining a cool effect.


So, I made my own version of rage strike:

*Rage Strike                                BarbarianCF
At-Will♦Primal, Weapon
Standard Action                                   Melee* Weapon
*Requirement:* You must be raging to use this power.
*Target:* onde creature
*Attack:* Str vs AC
*Hit:* 3W+Str mod. Increase to 5W+Str mod in 11st level and 7W+Str mod in 21st level.
*Miss:* Half Damage
*Effect:* You are no longer in rage.


This way you still exchanges cool effects for damage, but can use the cool effect by one turn at least.

Any thoughts?


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## Andor (Oct 6, 2008)

Merlin the Tuna said:


> Gah, so much gnashing of teeth and so many odd workarounds for Rage Strike.  Wouldn't the easier, more elegant way of doing it just be removing the "Must already be raging" condition?  Trading an unused Rage power for the damage seems Rage-y enough to me.
> 
> *shrug*




That does seem elegant. It acomplishes the goal, it makes the power usable at level 1, and it allows idiots to waste the ongoing power of the rages for a big hit. It may even pay off once in a while. It will also amuse many GMs when Joe Spamhead drops his only rage to really, _really_, *really* kill a minion.


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## Kishin (Oct 6, 2008)

Obryn said:


> I guess I'm not seeing a problem with Rage Strike.  To me, it's just a shorthand.
> 
> The designers _could_ have instead put a Special line into all Rages.  Something like...
> 
> ...




This.

A thousand times this.


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## Kordeth (Oct 6, 2008)

andarilhor said:


> This way you still exchanges cool effects for damage, but can use the cool effect by one turn at least.
> 
> Any thoughts?




As has already been pointed out, this effectively gives the barbarian more daily powers than any other class. Consider: A first-level ranger can drop one daily power per day. Let's say he chose Hunter's Bear Trap. Once per day, he can drop 1[W] + Stat damage, plus ongoing 5 damage and a slow effect on a target.

Now consider the 1st-level barbarian: Using your rule, he can, once per day, use--let's say Bloodhunt Rage. Once per day he can drop 3[W] + Str damage and gain a bonus to damage against bloodied folks or when he's bloodied. Then, later on in the fight, he can end the Bloodhunt Rage and throw down _another_ 3[W] + Stat damage. That's twice as much offensive power at the daily scale than the ranger.

If you don't like the Rage Strike mechanic, the only suggestion that's been made so far that keeps the barbarian balanced is adding the rule that you can choose to maintain the rage Effect of your active rage when you use a second daily encounter.

EDIT: I take it back, I missed Merlin the Tuna's suggestion. It actually might make rage strike a bit of a trap, but it doesn't unbalance the class.


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## That One Guy (Oct 6, 2008)

Lakoda said:


> The strikers in the PHB1 have bonus damage dice from a class feature but Barbarians have powers that just do more damage.  This will create a multi-classing problem when other classes swap for these powers to boost their damage.  The powers should really only do this extra damage when accompanied with a class feature so it cannot be gained via multi-classing.  Multi-classing to a Ranger, Rogue or Warlock only provides a boost to damage once per encounter but to a Barbarian gives you the ability to boost damage for each power swapped.  This is opposed to what I thought multi-classing was about in 4th edition, although I don't want to get into the multi-classing debate here, just pointing out the difference I noticed.



Maybe barbarian is designed as an attractive dip for STR oriented characters of other classes?







Andor said:


> That does seem elegant. It acomplishes the goal, it makes the power usable at level 1, and it allows idiots to waste the ongoing power of the rages for a big hit. It may even pay off once in a while. It will also amuse many GMs when Joe Spamhead drops his only rage to really, _really_, *really* kill a minion.



Agreed. I think Merlin's fix would take care of the problem. I think a mini explanation or side bar about how the feature's use is intended would be useful.

I still want somebody to build a few characters to compare. If nobody has by next week I'll pretty much have to.   ...but it'll be very lonely.


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## Nahat Anoj (Oct 6, 2008)

Merlin the Tuna said:


> Gah, so much gnashing of teeth and so many odd workarounds for Rage Strike.  Wouldn't the easier, more elegant way of doing it just be removing the "Must already be raging" condition?  Trading an unused Rage power for the damage seems Rage-y enough to me.
> 
> *shrug*



You got my vote.


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## Goonalan (Oct 6, 2008)

Just rolled up "Spatchcock" Orc Barbarian Level 1, sorted out his token and macros for MapTools- game on tomorrow night. He's 18 Strength and armed with a Maul (with Weapon Focus Hammer to increase the damage) 2d6+5, +6 To Hit mostly- been doing some practice rolls to warm the macros up for tomorrow, the (Human) Ranger and the (Goblin) Rogue in the party have better to hits and can do potentially more damage (Rogue is Brutal 2d8+3 on Backstab). Actually just playing around with the all the strikers then the Rogue (potentially- not as reliable) and Ranger hit more often and for more damage, have better AC, and the Ranger nearly the same hit points. I'm not an optimiser of characters, I just go with the ones I like the feel of, anyway will report back, playing through RPGA DALE1-1 The Prospect.

Cheers.


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## Kishin (Oct 6, 2008)

Mengu said:
			
		

> Not nearly as good as when they are raging. If I was playing a Barbarian, I would never waste a daily on a nova attack. You want to be able to rage in as many encounters as possible. Which makes Rage Strike a rather pointless power.




Sometimes, you really, really need to cave in something's face. Fast. 

I don't see how people aren't seeing how it a) is necessary to allow them to use more than one daily a fight, like other classes can and b) Provides a tactical option for spike damage when spike damage is called for.


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## Hadrian the Builder (Oct 6, 2008)

Why not simply change the raging strike power to a backstab or hunter's quarry style class feature?  Perhaps something like, "While raging you can choose to deal +2d6 damage to one target" (and scale it up just like backstab)

Then you can bring all the rest of the powers back in line with other striker damage scaling so that they multiclass without a problem.

And for those who would say "but then the barbarian only matches other strikers whwn he is raging, which he can only do X times per day at low levels"...you are right, and I haven't come up with a solution yet, but at high level, he could rage almost every other encounter and keep one rage for the boss at the end of the 13.33 encounters...


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## ProfessorCirno (Oct 6, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> Rogue with starleather armor: 28 AC
> Barbarian with elder hide armor: 22 AC
> Barbarian with spiritmail armor: 28 AC
> Fighter with elderscale armor: 29 AC




Man, I forgot how *goofy* the 4e armor names were ;p


Thoughts on Barbarians, mostly parroting what others have said:

- With this and the spellsword class, I think we're seeing a definite power creep, and it's one that's already starting very early on.
- Lots of stuff here is poorly written, and I think there's one in particular we're ALL talking about.  Even if you personally don't see a problem with it, it's pretty obvious that a lot of people do.
- One of the things we heard in 4e development was that races would be different but equal; an elf fighter and dwarf fighter would play very differently, but one wouldn't be inherently better then the other.  I think this was mostly geared towards making the classes very MAD, which, in their defense, they were - at the least, classes would need have three main attributes, which would give a good racial diversity.  I think barbarians break that though; they really don't need a lot of stats, at least from what we've seen so far, and as such there IS the problem of one master race for barbarians.
- Barbarians, due to chainmail, start off inherently with one less feat


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## Duelpersonality (Oct 6, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> 4) Striker with defender hitpoints. I absolutely applaud this. I do NOT want the classes to become so straightjacketed by rules that we sacrifice good class design for conformity. This was the problem with monsters in 3e, writers found it hard to make good monsters that had to conform to the formula.
> 
> Now I'm not saying the barbarian is currently balanced with defender HP, but I'm sure it could be. But I do not want roles to become the tomb for good class design, and I'm pleased to see WOTC is willing to push the envelope a bit on this one.




Looking at it again you're right.  I can certainly see where getting locked into one mindset for any rules design is going to be a bad thing.

I could get behind this for a barbarian, especially if they can somehow fix the chainmail issue.  Perhaps a feature not unlike the armor restrictions that the tempest fighter has?

I would still prefer that raging be the barbarian's extra damage mechanic, kicking in an extra 2d6 once per round for a negative 2-4 defense penalty or something similar.  I think that would effectively solve the armor issue all by itself and get the "easy to hit, hard to take down" effect they seem to be shooting for.  You could still tack on the neat effects for the daily rages on top of that, but you have to keep raging to keep the effect.


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## Daniel D. Fox (Oct 6, 2008)

Frankly, I'd just tie the Rage into the Bloodied condition. Something like -

_"When bloodied, as an immediate reaction, you can use your Daily Rage power and it lasts until a new rage is invoked or the end of the encounter."_

This means the Barbarian MUST get up front and take damage. It would encourage him to invoke opportunity attacks on a metalevel to open up his Rage abilities, while doling out damage. Improved movement "harrier styler" sort of strikes would fit well. Limit rages to Dailies and it limits Rage abuse, and allows lower-level Barbarians to Rage at first level.


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## Ktulu (Oct 6, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> Well, I think it is a problem. It's nothing like any of the other classes have. There are a lot of other ways to do it. Like I said, I think its a cool ability. Its application needs work. The fact that so many people are having issues grasping the concept makes it a problem. I wouldn't hate the class if it stayed this way, but at the very least it needs to be explained better.




The rogue only gets one daily power use per day at level one, as does the Barbarian.

I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.  It is not another power, it is a replacement for those who want to keep the frost wolf rage active while fighting a Red Dragon.  If he uses another daily power (which you WOULD do against a Red Dragon), then he loses the frost wolf rage cold damage.  However, because of Rage Strike, he has the ability to still do an equivalent "daily power" attack if he had a daily power to use, WITHOUT ending his raging effect.

I freakin' love this idea and can't wait to try it out.


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## kevtar (Oct 6, 2008)

*Rage & Rage Strike at first level*

I'm not a game designer, but maybe you CAN use Rage strike at first level, but the poorly written article makes that difficult to understand.

Here's the text for a Rage:


> Your daily attack powers are known as rages, and they allow you to unleash powerful bursts of emotion, willpower, and primal energy. Each rage starts with a powerful attack and then grants an ongoing benefit _until the rage ends_.




Ok, here's the text for Rage Strike:


> *Duration:* Your rage lasts _until you enter a new rage_, _until you drop to 0 hit points or fewer_, or _until the end of the encounter_.
> 
> *Rage Strike:* While raging, you gain access to the power rage strike, which allows you to channel one of your _unused rages _into a devastating attack.




*My Analysis*
At first level, you activate your Rage power. It is active and won't end until one of the conditions mentioned above. Thus, if you have not met one of those conditions it has not ended and therefore *is *an unused rage... You're using it! It's not an unused rage because the rage isn't over.

You then activate the first level Rage Strike effect: 1st level 3[W] + Strength modifier. Why would there be a Level 1 Rage Strike effect if you couldn't use Rage Strike at first level?

I dunno, what do you think?


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## Cadfan (Oct 6, 2008)

Kishin said:


> Sometimes, you really, really need to cave in something's face. Fast.
> 
> I don't see how people aren't seeing how it a) is necessary to allow them to use more than one daily a fight, like other classes can and b) Provides a tactical option for spike damage when spike damage is called for.



Right.

I don't get most of the hate for this ability.

There's no balance problems with it.  AT ALL.  None.  The "problem," if it is that, is that it seems inelegant to grant a power at level 1 that cannot be used until level 5.

The best solution so far seems to be to just reformat it so that, instead of having a specific power to convert barbarian dailies into different barbarian dailies, each barbarian daily could just have a little entry on it- "If you are already raging, you may choose to use this attack without replacing your original rage benefit."


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## Cadfan (Oct 6, 2008)

kevtar said:


> *My Analysis*
> At first level, you activate your Rage power. It is active and won't end until one of the conditions mentioned above. Thus, if you have not met one of those conditions it has not ended and therefore is not an unused rage... You're using it! It's not an unused rage because the rage isn't over.
> 
> You then activate the first level Rage Strike effect: 1st level 3[W] + Strength modifier. Why would there be a Level 1 Rage Strike effect if you couldn't use Rage Strike at first level?
> ...



I'm against.

1. If I'm using something, its not unused.

2. This sort of "hidden function" to an ability, based entirely on one possible interpretation of one word amongst many other words, is almost always not the authors intent.

This is swordmage handjive all over again.  Sorry.


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## Byronic (Oct 6, 2008)

Why Rage Strike?

You're fighting a Dragon. It could be any other Solo but let's say it's a Dragon. We usually find Dragons at the end of things, especially since one rarely faces something more dangerous then a Dragon in one day.

You use a Daily, it's the one you think is most suitable for this encounter. And then you use Rage Strike to burn away all your left over dailies, because if you don't kill the Dragon, the Dragon kills you. And dead men don't rage (well, undead ghosts and such besides)

Rage strike allows a barbarian to do what every other class can do. Burn all their dailies on a Dragon.

It's use less before level 5? Well that just balances it out with all the other classes who can't use two dailies before level five either.

Can't use it unless you're raged? That's okay, the mechanic is really just there so you can burn all your dailies on a Dragon.

Useless? Only if you're not raged yet and don't have a solo in sight. It's a little bit extra so barbarians can use their favourite rage and still be able to burn their dailies if they want to.


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## Remathilis (Oct 6, 2008)

I don't want to inject too much into the rage-strike debate (but I will say I'm also not a fan of waiting 4 levels for a class ability to kick in), but I will say this.

Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!


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## Vanuslux (Oct 6, 2008)

I don't have a problem with the functionality of Rage Strike, but it definitely needs to be rewritten for clarity...and how hard would it be to include "Barbarians gain Rage Strike at 5th level" to the description...that alone would keep there from being a huge percentage of people who are confounded by the power just because they're trying to wrap their head around how it is useful at 1st level because common sense tells us that an ability shouldn't be given at 1st level unless it has some practical use at 1st level.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 6, 2008)

I really like the Barbarian so far. I have been playing in my head with it since midnight, and the last hour or two with one of the guys. I have to say it is diffrent...and that scares some people. I want to find the creater and shake his hand. I hope that PHB 2 (and 3 and 4 ect ect) is full of designes that take chances like this. 

As for balance...I still am not sure, but maybe keeping the hit points but lowwereing the healing surges down to rouge/ranger/warlock level might make me feel a little better.


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## Zephyrus (Oct 6, 2008)

For the record I generally liked the class as is, however the strong debate creates an atmosphere that some change is prudent. I like in general a lot of what the class attempts to accomplish thematically so here are my proposed changes. I feel the following might go a long ways towards resolving the issues at hand while still keeping the barbarian interesting, different and fun.



•	Make all, many or most powers require a 2H melee weapon. This should help alleviate some of the multi-classing issues as it'll restrict weapon types for power-swaps of multi-class strikers like ranger and rogue as many ranger powers require a ranged weapon or be wielding two weapons and many rogue powers have rogue weapon group restrictions on their use. Similarly with a Warlock need an implement will conflict with a 2H melee weapon for available hands.

•	Add that barbarians grain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex saves when wearing light armor This bonus could increase by +1 each tier (+2 AC/Ref at Paragon and +3 at Epic) as a way of enticing them away from heavier armor and shields. While possible to get better AC’s out of heavier armor it would be feat intensive to do so compared to eventually what could be achieved without. This enticement towards light armor could be an effective alternative to heavy armor.

•	Change the Rage/Dailies to reduce the weapon damage by 1W with the proviso that they can maintain a current rage/stance-like effect and have the attack deal +2W additional damage instead. This will help clear up the ‘rage-strike’ issue (in part) by eliminating the ‘chunkiness’ of having an class feature that cannot be used till 5th level by having it instead built into the rage powers themselves. The idea of reducing the Rage/Daily damage Weapon Output is balanced by their conversion of a daily into extra damage as well as that barbarians are geared towards a more level, if elevated, damage output without conditional situations like the other strikers.

•	Change ‘Rage Strike’ to a Minor action but eliminate the need to burn a ‘rage/daily’ to power it. Instead it would be a STR vs. AC attack against target: enemy who you have hit or has hit you since the beginning of your last turn and have the attack do damage equal to ½ the barbarians CON modifier (maybe ½ CON +1 or +2 at 11th and +3 or +4 at 21st level).  Perhaps with a special benefit that when making this attack, the barbarian is not considered marked. In effect this would be similar to a minor-action ‘cleave’ useable only while raging.  This will add a little bit of extra ‘Sneak-attack/Hunter’s Quarry’ Damage without being too over-powered because it requires an additional attack roll. If you go with the special to ignore marked (for the rage strike attack only) it would grant the freedom to choose who you wish to hit, simulating a barbarian as such a wild combatant that it is hard to pin them down. The damage from this would be fairly low compared to main attacks but since it requires an action to use and requires that you hit or have been bit it will limit some the frequency it is used. Perhaps have it reduce the barbarians AC and Reflex DEF by -1 or -2 until their next turn on any turn they utilize this at-will. This clears up the other part of rage strike (and giving Barbarians a quarry/curse/sneak attack like boost).



What do you think?


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 6, 2008)

ok so people have been saying? 







Vanuslux said:


> common sense tells us that an ability shouldn't be given at 1st level unless it has some practical use at 1st level.





Cadfan said:


> There's no balance problems with it.  AT ALL.  None.  The "problem," if it is that, is that it seems inelegant to grant a power at level 1 that cannot be used until level 5.






Ktulu said:


> The rogue only gets one daily power use per day at level one, as does the Barbarian.
> 
> I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.  It is not another power, it is a replacement for those who want to keep the frost wolf rage active while fighting a Red Dragon.  If he uses another daily power (which you WOULD do against a Red Dragon), then he loses the frost wolf rage cold damage.  However, because of Rage Strike, he has the ability to still do an equivalent "daily power" attack if he had a daily power to use, WITHOUT ending his raging effect.




Ok I would hate to have to have them reprint can be used as x if in rage or y with lasting effect z if not. In EVERY daily ability, and I think it is pretty elegant in it's use. It CAN be used at any level if you have a way to regain dailies. I also having played through all of paragon and 7/10 of epic have seen many fights with more then 1 daily used. 
    Heck listen to the pod cast for today and they talk about a wiard useing 3 disintagrates in a day...now look at how useful that 'novaing' would be if you knew you could recall a daily at the end of the fight... 




oh and


Remathilis said:


> Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!



this is so true...I am siging this


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## Kordeth (Oct 6, 2008)

Zephyrus said:


> •	Make all, many or most powers require a 2H melee weapon. This should help alleviate some of the multi-classing issues as it'll restrict weapon types for power-swaps of multi-class strikers like ranger and rogue as many ranger powers require a ranged weapon or be wielding two weapons and many rogue powers have rogue weapon group restrictions on their use. Similarly with a Warlock need an implement will conflict with a 2H melee weapon for available hands.




This might not be a bad idea.



> •	Add that barbarians grain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex saves when wearing light armor This bonus could increase by +1 each tier (+2 AC/Ref at Paragon and +3 at Epic) as a way of enticing them away from heavier armor and shields. While possible to get better AC’s out of heavier armor it would be feat intensive to do so compared to eventually what could be achieved without. This enticement towards light armor could be an effective alternative to heavy armor.




The problem is, if you give a bonus to AC/Ref in light armor that's not as good as the boost you get by going to chain, the barbarian is still going to go for chain. If the bonus is as good as going to chain, you're going to end up with the same problem of "high AC and tons of hp" that the barbarian wearing chain suffers. You're better off restricting the class's powers to only work with light armors, or else coming up with some other benefit to take away if the barb wears heavy armor.



> •	Change the Rage/Dailies to reduce the weapon damage by 1W with the proviso that they can maintain a current rage/stance-like effect and have the attack deal +2W additional damage instead. This will help clear up the ‘rage-strike’ issue (in part) by eliminating the ‘chunkiness’ of having an class feature that cannot be used till 5th level by having it instead built into the rage powers themselves. The idea of reducing the Rage/Daily damage Weapon Output is balanced by their conversion of a daily into extra damage as well as that barbarians are geared towards a more level, if elevated, damage output without conditional situations like the other strikers.




I think it's easier and more elegant to use Merlin's suggestion of removing "you must be raging" from the requirements to use Rage Strike if you're really bothered by the current implementation.



> •	Change ‘Rage Strike’ to a Minor action but eliminate the need to burn a ‘rage/daily’ to power it. Instead it would be a STR vs. AC attack against target: enemy who you have hit or has hit you since the beginning of your last turn and have the attack do damage equal to ½ the barbarians CON modifier (maybe ½ CON +1 or +2 at 11th and +3 or +4 at 21st level).  Perhaps with a special benefit that when making this attack, the barbarian is not considered marked. In effect this would be similar to a minor-action ‘cleave’ useable only while raging.  This will add a little bit of extra ‘Sneak-attack/Hunter’s Quarry’ Damage without being too over-powered because it requires an additional attack roll. If you go with the special to ignore marked (for the rage strike attack only) it would grant the freedom to choose who you wish to hit, simulating a barbarian as such a wild combatant that it is hard to pin them down. The damage from this would be fairly low compared to main attacks but since it requires an action to use and requires that you hit or have been bit it will limit some the frequency it is used. Perhaps have it reduce the barbarians AC and Reflex DEF by -1 or -2 until their next turn on any turn they utilize this at-will. This clears up the other part of rage strike (and giving Barbarians a quarry/curse/sneak attack like boost).




This is way too fiddly and doesn't really connote "rage strike" to me.


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## sukael (Oct 6, 2008)

Hmm...

30th-level minotaur barbarian, demigod, Strength 30, uses a _mordenkrad +6_ (2d8 brutal 1). Use a 29th-level daily for _rage strike_... 18d8 brutal 1 +16, so average 106 damage on a hit, or 53 on a miss, or average 181 on a crit... and this is all before feats and other magic items. Yeouch.

Hurricane of Blades could do up to 156 average if each attack hits, though.


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## gribble (Oct 6, 2008)

Leatherhead said:


> Evocations do less damage, Rampage triggers nearly once a round. Off the top of my head I would say it could even work as an extra melee basic attack per round when you manage to hit an enemy, but maybe just an extra attack that deals 1[W] damage(2[W] at level 21+) without any stat bonuses would keep them "in line but different."




I like this. With the fairly static "to hit" % in 4e, I think it would work well. Feels very barbarian-ish, and it'd solve the MC problem (with the class as written in the preview, I don't see what ability/power the MC feat could give another class...).

One rider - I'd probably restruct it to an attack against the same target, otherwise it might be too good (particularly at minion killing or cf Twin Strike).


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## gribble (Oct 6, 2008)

kevtar said:


> Why would there be a Level 1 Rage Strike effect if you couldn't use Rage Strike at first level?



Because the level of effect is the level of the daily power you've burned to acivate _Rage Strike_. E.g.: at 5th level you activate your daily rage. Next round, you burn your 1st level daily to acivate Rage Strike and remain in your 5th level rage.

Seriously guys it's not that hard. Inelegant? Yes. Contradictory or confusing? Not if you actually read what the class abilities and power says... and don't bring "common sense" interpretaions into it. I've found that 4e rules really don't lend themselves to "common sense" interpretations.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 6, 2008)

Ktulu said:


> I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.




It's not hard to grasp. I understand the benefits and why they did it. IMO it's a band aid to fix a design flaw. You and other people like, I and other people don't like it. Let's leave it at that. We can sit here and post until we're blue in the face. I don't think either side is going to give, so let's leave it at that.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 6, 2008)

sukael said:


> Hmm...
> 
> 30th-level minotaur barbarian, demigod, Strength 30, uses a _mordenkrad +6_ (2d8 brutal 1). Use a 29th-level daily for _rage strike_... 18d8 brutal 1 +16, so average 106 damage on a hit, or 53 on a miss, or average 181 on a crit... and this is all before feats and other magic items. Yeouch.
> 
> Hurricane of Blades could do up to 156 average if each attack hits, though.




strikers are big bad damge dealers...but I saw a rouge with a freken dagger do just shy of 200 with a crit on Assassin’s Point. I think till his dying day the GM will be remembered as saying 'but there just daggers...little daggers' that was 17d6 (Crit max 102) +12D12 (Viscess dagger) + str mod +dex mod.
It was something like 198 or something...it was epic in every way shape and form


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## Minigiant (Oct 7, 2008)

I think many people are missing the point of the barbarian's high AC and HP. It's his counter for aggression. 

The rogue drops effects on foes to make attacks against him miss while boosting his defenses.
The ranger uses superior shifing and cancels incoming attacks.
The warlock attacks at ranges and places negative effects on foes. 
The barbarian takes the hit but doesn't feel the first one(s) much if at all.

Rage Strike just gives the barbarian a way to use their dailies effectively since rage bonuses don't stack.

Also. What if the half orc racial power has the Rage keyword?


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## Mezzer (Oct 7, 2008)

A few thoughts some people seem to be missing, in no particular order.

The only confusing part about Rage Strike is it's description in the class feature's section, the actual power description is quite clear. When I first read that, it threw me off, but after actually reading the power, it was pretty clear. I'd say it certainly warrants some more TLC as far as the wording goes.  Also, a little sidebar on the reason it's there should pretty much settle any uneasy feelings people could have about it. And as far as elegance is concerned, tell me which is more elegant, including "Special: you can instead use this power as a Str vc AC attack that does x[W] damage on a hit" on every barb daily, or having one ability sum that up nicely?

Anyway, one thing people seem to be missing is the fact that the barb is the first class from the primal power source we've seen so far, and so he's bound to be different from other, more familiar, classes. The whole "your dailies grant you extra abilities for the whole encouter, and don't stack" thing could be the defining feature of the primal power source, and a cool one at that. Druid combat shapeshifts as dailies would be a perfect fit for that. Trying to go away from that, or simply crying about it, will probably get you nowhere fast.

As far as chainmail is concerned, he benefits from getting heavier armor as much as the next class, and he comes with some built-in features to offset the fact that he doesn't start with it. It's also perfectly fine from a RP perspective to have a barb in heavy armor (let's ignore the barb fashion trend from 3.x; mithril full-plate anyone?), as has been pointed out before. We shouldn't forget that heavy armor slows you down, and gives you penalties to the few skills you might have at a fair bonus (at least in heroic).

And to get back to the core idiom of 4E; play the class before you make up your mind about it, and preferably before you go on a posting spree in every RPG oriented forum you know of.


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## Dragonblade (Oct 7, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> Right.
> 
> I don't get most of the hate for this ability.
> 
> There's no balance problems with it.  AT ALL.  None.  The "problem," if it is that, is that it seems inelegant to grant a power at level 1 that cannot be used until level 5.




Agreed, all the criticisms of Rage Strike seem to come down entirely to semantics. I have no problem with it as written.

I'd just like to chime in here real quick on the armor issue. I think many people are looking at this the wrong way. The Barbarian is EXPECTED to take those armor feats. The Barbarian NEEDS those armor feats.

All of the other strikers or light armored classes are all heavily focused on INT or DEX, meaning they don't need heavy armor. This would even apply to the Wizard as well. Now, there is nothing to stop one of those classes from taking feats to wear plate. But they don't need it due to the ability score/AC bonus synergy inherent in those classes.

The Barbarian has no such attribute synergy to rely on. More than likely he will have his best scores in STR, CON, and CHA, relegating DEX or INT to dump status. This means that the Babrarian desparately needs those armor feats JUST TO BREAK EVEN with a Rogue or Ranger AC-wise.

The designers made a conscious choice to mitigate some of that drawback with Defender level hitpoints because they knew the Barbarian was going to take more punishment due to the lower AC.

So the Barbarian taking armor feats is NOT broken, rather its the Barbarian spending a resource to overcome a significant drawback built into the class itself.

And Hurricane of Blades is NOT broken either. Sure, you get up to six attacks with it, but you are only doing a single [W] worth of damage. Its a minion killer, but not very useful against the bucket of hitpoints that a 27th level non-minion monster is going to have. I'd much rather have Blood Frenzy and be able to dish out 5[W] worth of damage as my 27th level encounter power.


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## WalterKovacs (Oct 7, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> - One of the things we heard in 4e development was that races would be different but equal; an elf fighter and dwarf fighter would play very differently, but one wouldn't be inherently better then the other. I think this was mostly geared towards making the classes very MAD, which, in their defense, they were - at the least, classes would need have three main attributes, which would give a good racial diversity. I think barbarians break that though; they really don't need a lot of stats, at least from what we've seen so far, and as such there IS the problem of one master race for barbarians.
> - Barbarians, due to chainmail, start off inherently with one less feat




a) Dex, outside of just the benefit until you get heavy armor, helps with a number of feats that may come up (if you don't go with hammers or axe, you want armor spec for chain or scale) 

b) This is specifically the STR + CON build, so no charisma based powers. This means that it's going to look very one sided as to which class is "best" at it. In general though, the lack of races in PHB I that give bonuses to Strength made it so that non-human [or dragonborn] races would have a hard time being a "good" fighter, as they need to spend a LOT on getting their strength up. A Dwarven Barbarian might have a hard time gettng his STR up, but he has the bump in CON, and the cool weapon feat.

Many classes have a pair of builds where the individual builds only really need 2 stats. Without seeing the charisma build, we can't see whether you'd want all three stats, or just go with 2 and leave it at that. [Remember, the class may have a GREAT fort, but will have a horrible will and reflex if it just maxes out STR and CON].


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## Ethalias (Oct 7, 2008)

Consider this a vote for a Rage Strike sidebar, 2-handed weapon requirement and some sort of AC fix.


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## Spatula (Oct 7, 2008)

Merlin the Tuna said:


> Gah, so much gnashing of teeth and so many odd workarounds for Rage Strike.  Wouldn't the easier, more elegant way of doing it just be removing the "Must already be raging" condition?  Trading an unused Rage power for the damage seems Rage-y enough to me.



That's a good idea.


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## Dragonblade (Oct 7, 2008)

Ethalias said:


> Consider this a vote for a Rage Strike sidebar, 2-handed weapon requirement and some sort of AC fix.




 NO AC fix needed, unless its to give the class a higher AC bonus. Already the class is hurting in the AC dept. It needs armor feats just to avoid getting annihilated.


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## Spatula (Oct 7, 2008)

Dragonblade said:


> Agreed, all the criticisms of Rage Strike seem to come down entirely to semantics.



If you skip over all the design criticisms for an ability that you can't use for 4 levels.



Dragonblade said:


> I'd just like to chime in here real quick on the armor issue. I think many people are looking at this the wrong way. The Barbarian is EXPECTED to take those armor feats. The Barbarian NEEDS those armor feats.



Ah, hidden penalties and false choices buried in class & feat design.  It's so strange how that was a _bad_ thing 6 months ago.


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## JVisgaitis (Oct 7, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:
			
		

> - One of the things we heard in 4e development was that races would be different but equal; an elf fighter and dwarf fighter would play very differently, but one wouldn't be inherently better then the other.




This direction pretty much changed though, didn't it? The only difference between races now are the encounter powers you get at first level and a few feats. I think they either fell short on that promise or changed direction through the course of development. Wasn't this mentioned at some point somewhere?


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## Wormwood (Oct 7, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> It's not hard to grasp. I understand the benefits and why they did it. IMO it's a band aid to fix a design flaw.



This right here.

A more elegant solution to emulate _flipping out and killing things _could have been achieved.


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## Mezzer (Oct 7, 2008)

Ethalias said:


> Consider this a vote for a Rage Strike sidebar, 2-handed weapon requirement and some sort of AC fix.



Making his powers require a 2H weapon is a very artificial and wholly unrealistic limitation; what of the barbarian who wants to look cool by swinging around two weapons? Sure, he doesn't have any abilities that explicitly use two weapons, but the flavor is nice, and the two related feats (TWF and TWD) are also an option. Heck, he might attack once with one, and then switch to the other, for some power that specifically requires a different weapon.

Another tidbit to consider is the fact that AC fixes have thus far only shown up on defenders, and I think they should stay there. Everyone else can fend for themselves, and the barb has plenty of ways to do that. What people really feel is missing, is the fact that he doesn't have a penalty for going for heavier armor, but then, neither does anyone else. Any race with a bonus to either Dex or Int (genasi, drow, the various MM races, etc.) could easily stick to light armor, and be happy about it.


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## Ethalias (Oct 7, 2008)

Dragonblade said:


> NO AC fix needed, unless its to give the class a higher AC bonus. Already the class is hurting in the AC dept. It needs armor feats just to avoid getting annihilated.




Man that smiley looks mean! You'll be glad to hear that in my own clumsy attempts to keep it brief I appear to have mislead you.  I am, like you, concerned that armour feats are necessary to bring the Barbarian up to speed in a fashion that could detract from its flavour if taken to extremes.  However that's just based on what I've read here, I could well be wrong. 

*EDIT* Some other fair comments on my vote. AC appears to be a more complex issue than I'd credited it for. I stand by the need for a little explaination for Rage Strike, though I believe it functions perfectly well as is..

Take it easy

Ethalias


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## Saeviomagy (Oct 7, 2008)

I'm not sure the barbarian needs an increased AC: compare him with, say, the melee ranger.

The barbarian has more surges, bigger surges, better defenses (recuperating strike) and better maneuverability (pressing strike basically guarantees that you can get in and get out any time you hit) than the melee ranger.

That said - removing some of those advantages in exchange for better armor would seem like a fair trade. For me a prime candidate would be removing some of that maneuverability - as is barbarians are out-doing rogues and rangers at flitting about the battlefield untouched, which to me doesn't fit thematically.

Additionally - it seems like the powers of the barbarian seem really, really good targets for multiclassing. What rogue wouldn't want to swap one of his garbage dailies for thunder hawk rage?


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## gribble (Oct 7, 2008)

Dragonblade said:


> And Hurricane of Blades is NOT broken either. Sure, you get up to six attacks with it, but you are only doing a single [W] worth of damage. Its a minion killer, but not very useful against the bucket of hitpoints that a 27th level non-minion monster is going to have. I'd much rather have Blood Frenzy and be able to dish out 5[W] worth of damage as my 27th level encounter power.



Then you don't really understand how 4e powers work.


At 27th level your bonus to damage is likely to be much higher than your [W].
Even assuming only half your 6 attacks hit, with a 2d6 weapon (the *best* case for a higher [W] power), this equates to 6d6 + 6X vs 10d6 + X.
By 27th level, a character should have a primary ability of *at least* 21 - assuming a 14 at 1st level (most character will have at least 2-4 points more) - which equates to +5. Add the assumed +4-5 from your weapon, and X is looking to be at least 9. Average on 2d6 [W] is 7.

So we have (assuming only half your attacks hit) 48 points of damage for the 6[W] + 6X power, vs 44 for the 5[W] power...

If (the more likely scenario - normally PCs in 4e have a slightly better than 50% change of hitting) 4 of your attacks hit that becomes 64 points of damage vs 44... 

If all 6 hit, it becomes 96 points of damage.

And that is in the best possible scenario for the 5[W] attack. Likely X will be much higher for any 27th level character, and it's also probable the weapon won't be a 2d6 weapon. It's also desregarding criticals - I don't think I have to prove that 6 attacks are more likely to score at least one critical than 1.


So not only is it the more flexible power (equally effective against a swarm of minions or a solo), it also has the higher average, expected and maximum damage.
How is that not broken?


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## Runestar (Oct 7, 2008)

> If all 6 hit, it becomes 96 points of damage.




??? I am estimating ~300-400 damage on average (not factoring in crits) for the typical optimized barbarian...how did you get so little? 

That said, any multiclass options which benefit the barb? I am already thinking ranger for hunter's quarry, augmenting his already impressive damage dealing capabilities. Thoughts?


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## Obryn (Oct 7, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> - With this and the spellsword class, I think we're seeing a definite power creep, and it's one that's already starting very early on.



The spellsword is overpowered?  I remember that was a concern when we only had guesswork available, but it's a very well-balanced class in its final iteration.  Its at-wills are pretty cool, but its dailies and encounters are kinda weak.  The aegis of shielding is likely better than a Paladin's Divine Challenge, but it's limited in the same way.  A fighter's marks are easier to activate and hold people in place _much _better.



> - Lots of stuff here is poorly written, and I think there's one in particular we're ALL talking about.  Even if you personally don't see a problem with it, it's pretty obvious that a lot of people do.



It's an open playtest, though.  I expect all the comments and criticism will be examined before its final release.  So threads like this are exactly what WotC is looking for.  "Rage Strike doesn't make sense" is a good thing to know.

-O


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## sukael (Oct 7, 2008)

Runestar said:


> ??? I am estimating ~300-400 damage on average (not factoring in crits) for the typical optimized barbarian...how did you get so little?




How are you getting such high results?


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## gribble (Oct 7, 2008)

Runestar said:


> ??? I am estimating ~300-400 damage on average (not factoring in crits) for the typical optimized barbarian...how did you get so little?



Because my example isn't anywhere near optimised. I was demonstrating that *even in the worst possible scenario, it still had a much higher expected damage output*.
I'd expect in an optimised scenario, which included criticals, the damage would be closer to what you expect. I believe this is why bonuses aren't included in X[W] and crits aren't multiplied in 4e. It's the 3.x damage optimisation method...


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## AllisterH (Oct 7, 2008)

re: Swordmage

Er, I thought the consensus was that a paladin was just plain tougher than the defending swordmage whereas the fighter still exceeded the assault swordmage in terms of DPR. I'm be interested in seeing the consensus that the swordmage was actually better.

re: RAGE
I think one fundamental decision point was made by WOTC here. How they see RAGE being used.

If you see RAGE as something the barbarian should do in ALL fights (Easy, standard and Challenging), then Rage should be an encounter power.

However, WOTC's designers believe RAGE should be invoked only when the barbariam has his back to the wall (challenging fight) and as such, the Rage mechanic is tied to the dailies.

re: Multiclassing
This is why we have the feat system. I don't see a ranger or rogue picking up any of the encounter level powers since a ranger still does more damage anyway whereas the rogue's abilities mostly key off of Dex and for a rogue, ranger encounter powers are still better. 

Even with full level paragon multiclassing, I'm still not convinced it's better in terms of DPR than to go either Pit fighter or Kensei.

re: RAGE Strike
Like others, when I read it first, I got the idea it WAS intended to allow for the barbarian to NOVA like the other classes. Otherwise, each daily would have to have those extra lines built into the power description.


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## gribble (Oct 7, 2008)

sukael said:


> How are you getting such high results?



Optimised Barbarian:
Str (26) +8 
Magic Weapon +5
Weapon Focus +3
Power Attack +9 (admittedly, this would reduce the chances of hitting with 6 attacks considerably)
That's +25 damage, without too much effort. When you factor in power, rage and other bonuses I'm sure you could easily top +30 to damage. When you multiply this by 6, thats 180 points without factoring in dice damage or criticals. And I'm not even much of an optimiser...


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## AllisterH (Oct 7, 2008)

gribble said:


> Optimised Barbarian:
> Str (26) +8
> Magic Weapon +5
> Weapon Focus +3
> ...




I do think if you want to show someone, using PA is not a good choice. 

PA will significantly drop that average since ALREADY, at that level, monsters defenses are higher than what they were at 1st level when compared to a PC attack bonus.


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## mattdm (Oct 7, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:


> 1) Rage Strike is worthless. Sorry, yes, I said it. It encourages going Nova through your daily powers, and it's not damaging enough to really be worth sacrificing more daily powers than otherwise. One idea we're tossing around is to key Rage Strike off sacrificing healing surges, instead.




But that takes away the entire point of Rage Strike's existence in the first place. Better to just drop the feature.


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## gribble (Oct 7, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> I do think if you want to show someone, using PA is not a good choice.



I freely admitted that. All I was illustrating in this case is that it is certainly *possible* to achieve some very high numbers under ideal circumstances. I think under normal circumstances, around 100-150 points is more like what you'll get if all attacks hit (and given that only 3-4 attacks are likely to hit, most probably around 50-100 points on an average use of the power).

My point stll stands - this is more than the expected damage output than a 5[W] + Str power against a solo.


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## Goumindong (Oct 7, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Class Features:
> All Barbarians know _Rage Strike_, usable only during a rage.
> 
> Your Rageblood Vigor class feature grants you the use of the _swift charge_ power.




Its the same conundrum with Warlocks. But I am guessing that they intended it to go the opposite way that it goes with warlocks.



Gloombunny said:


> I'm a bit concerned that the barbarian doesn't seem to do very much damage for a striker.  The extra damage on the at-wills is no more than from Hunter's Quarry, and a barbarian who's not raging only gets it if he uses Howling Strike, which is just a basic attack with the extra damage.




Barbarians are all about burst damage. 

Hunters quarry does about +3d6/4rounds at the first level[75% hit rate].

But barbarians as we see here, get a free charge 1/encounter. Their charge likely does 3d6+strength[Maul+1d6].[+1d6/2 round average for a 4 round combat, rounding the strength to 3.5 avg for the sake of ease]

Now, assume that the ranger is twin striking with 1d12 weapons. In which case, a 18 strength barbarian has an average damage of 7.25[14 avg/hit, 1/2 average hit/round] while the twin striking ranger has an average damage of 6.5/round[6.5 average a hit, 1 average hit/round].

So in a 4 round combat, the barbarian is at +.625 /round and the Ranger is at +1d6/4 rounds[+.875/round] for every round before round 4 and +3d6/4 rounds[2.625/round] for every round above round 4. 

Crits are ignored[which would slightly favor the ranger], but the barbarian is going to be running another 5.5 average damage on a crit due to his extra crit damage. Which will trigger once every 5 rounds or so for 1.125 average damage every 5 rounds.

So, in a 5 round combat you expect the barb to have +4.25 damage advantage and the ranger to be up 6.125 damage. Before round 5, the barbarian is winning and the barbarian is prone to damage spikes, which can be very beneficial in reducing incoming damage. 

Not to mention the barbarians really strong dailies.



Rechan said:


> It's not broken because for the barb to do 6W+6, he's got to _hit with all 6_.
> 
> So I don't really see what makes six attacks at 1W so broken.




Because damage against a single target >> damage against multiple targets. You need to do roughly three times the aggregate damage in order to make up the advantage that single target damage confers in terms of incoming damage reduction. 

So a 2[W] +str power that hits everyone has to hit, at the very least, 6 enemies before it makes up against the 6[W] power. And this power is actually 6[W]+6x static bonuses +6x chance of a critical[with the chance of multiple crits, with all the extra damage that implies AND an extra attack if you're a barbarian].

Edit:

E.G. lets do an examination of Hellfire curse vs Hurricane of Blades. Assume +20 damage/hit[which is unfair to the barb since he is weapon and melee which have more advantages], and assume a 1d6 critical die[also unfair to the barbarian]. With the barbarian using an executioner axe and each has a 50% hit rate.

The hellfire curse does 5d10+25. The Hurricane of Blades does 1d12+20 six times and criticals on a 19 or 20.

Avg Damage Hellfire curse

.45 x 5d10+25+3d6 + .5 x 93+5d6 = 28.4 + 5.7= 34.1 average damage

Avg Damage Hurricane of Blades

(.40 x 1d10+22 + .1 x 32+5d6 )x6 + .4685(.4 x 2d10+24 + .1 x 44+5d6) = 97.8 +9.6 = 107.4 average damage.

Want to see what it looks like against that 1[W]AoE if the AoE hits 4 enemies?


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## mhacdebhandia (Oct 7, 2008)

Klaus said:


> It is technically well-done but the proportions of the lead barbarian are all over the place, specially the ginormous head.
> 
> The "dwarf vs. orcs" picture is alright, specially the dwarf, but the orcs are very stiff, with distorted faces and undetailed arms.
> 
> ...



Glass houses, Claudio. Glass houses.


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## WhatGravitas (Oct 7, 2008)

gribble said:


> Optimised Barbarian:
> Str (26) +8
> Magic Weapon +5
> Weapon Focus +3
> ...



Let's redo that, this time without the power attack, but with items from the AV:
Str 28: +9
Weapon Focus: +3 feat bonus
Bloodsoaked Bracers: +10 power bonus (while bloodied)
Battlecrazed Weapon  +5: +5 enhancement bonus, +3d6 untyped (while bloodied)

Total: +27+3d6 (while bloodied), which gives us an average of: 37.5 damage per hit.

Ouch.

Cheers, LT.


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## AllisterH (Oct 7, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> Let's redo that, this time without the power attack, but with items from the AV:
> Str 28: +9
> Weapon Focus: +3 feat bonus
> Bloodsoaked Bracers: +10 power bonus (while bloodied)
> ...




Again...if we're doing a comparison, can we at least see the optimized comparison we're measuring against?

For example, Guoimodong contrasted this power of the barbarian with a Warlock, how does this compare with the OTHER ranger or Rogue powers?


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## SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS (Oct 7, 2008)

gribble said:


> I freely admitted that. All I was illustrating in this case is that it is certainly *possible* to achieve some very high numbers under ideal circumstances. I think under normal circumstances, around 100-150 points is more like what you'll get if all attacks hit (and given that only 3-4 attacks are likely to hit, most probably around 50-100 points on an average use of the power).
> 
> My point stll stands - this is more than the expected damage output than a 5[W] + Str power against a solo.




With a decent leader, like a warlord using lead the attack (a very broken power) or a cleric with good omens the chance to hit goes from 50% to 75-80% and the mean damage increases a LOT.


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## gribble (Oct 7, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> Again...if we're doing a comparison, can we at least see the optimized comparison we're measuring against?



Any other power which can (potentially) multiply that base damage by 6 against a single target.

Wait a minute! There aren't any (except for the pre-errata Blade Cascade)!
I wonder why...


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## Turtlejay (Oct 7, 2008)

tl:dr

It is a class in beta, it has problems, any issues while playtesting should be sent to dndinsider@wizards.com with Barbarian Playtest Feedback in the subject.

I'd say try it out first, if you still don't like it, email them.  Remember, we saw A LOT of this kind of nitpicking when 4e first came out (and still see it) over things that are perfectly reasonable.

Jay


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## JesterOC (Oct 7, 2008)

Rage strike is a very good power that is not presented well.  I am really curious how Avalanche Strike is going to work out.  It looks like a great "finisher".  Recovering Strike looks like it converts minions into health kits, but we shall see.  I can imagine the barbarian getting in arguments with wizards over minions. It could be frustrating to see the wizard kill off all of the barbarians health bait.

JesterOC


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## Stogoe (Oct 7, 2008)

Skyscraper said:


> Trading a level 1 rage power for Raging Strike is doubly frustrating, since you get more out of your level 1 rage power than from Raging Strike, except if you want to keep you first rage power benefits going.
> 
> This is really a bad mechanic overall IMO, and this is the first class in any D&D edition that i read and say to myself: i would never pick this class for my PC.



As dozens of others have said, and as you have studiously ignored, sometimes you want to keep your current rage but need the big guns.  Rage Strike enables that.  That's all Rage Strike does.


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## Iron Dog (Oct 7, 2008)

I kinda like the barb (this build anyway) "as is". It fits the idea of a barbarian to me. It's pure smack down and not much good for anything else.

The role-playing barbarian:

DM: "You walk into a Tavern, what do you do?"
Barb: (In the best Arnie voice) "I 'it it wit mi arx"
DM: "hmm ok.. The villages want you to save them..."
Barb: "I 'it it wit mi arx"
DM: oh, um, they show you a map to the treasure, what.... no.. let me guess..
Barb: "I 'it it wit mi arx"

Plus I like the idea that a Barb can go "nova" by going off half cocked, spending his lot early and being stuffed for the rest of the day. (Anyone seen Eric the Viking)

As for the daily power swap out. I wouldn't be surprised that there will be new swap out powers for the other martial classes come the Martial Powers book.


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## Kishin (Oct 7, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> With this and the spellsword class, I think we're seeing a definite power creep, and it's one that's already starting very early on.




The Swordmage deals the lowest damage of -any- class out there I would wager right now, and one of its build options (Assault swordmage) is pretty suboptimal for its designated Defender role. It has a lot of tricks and mobility, is fantastic at AoEing and clearing out minions (A trait it shares with the Barbarian) and its defense orientated mark (aegis of shielding) is rather good, but I don't think it outpaces either the Fighter or the Paladin in the stickiness department, and it certainly has nowhere near the capacity for damage the Fighter does.



> Barbarians, due to chainmail, start off inherently with one less feat




Technically, so did Druids in 3.5 because they had to take Natural Spell. ;P


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## Runestar (Oct 7, 2008)

If we have an inspiring warlord in the party, that is another potential +9 damage (assuming 28int) per hit. Though the downside is that vs a foe with resist, that is a total of 60 damage resisted (10 per hit).

Seems a little disturbing that barbs are all but encouraged to eventually go for fullplate. Runs a little counter to the way I envisioned one, but apparently a necessity, since they will likely be dumping dex...


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## Andor (Oct 7, 2008)

Multiclassing-

I can see Bards primarily MCing into Fighter in order to get that lovely stance/rage synergy, also their other build option makes Warlocks a definite possibility. They have the con/chr stat synergy and Warlock can provide the ranged attacks and utility mojo they otherwise lack. 

Plus it's just got cool RPing potential. "Hah! I'm across the chasm, your spirits can't help you now barbarian!" "I deal with darker spirits than most." *Diabolic Grasp* "Aiiieeee!"

Contriwise I can definitely see Two-sword rangers dipping into Barb for Raging goodness. Not sure who else it would appeal to. Fighters perhaps.


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## Zerovoid (Oct 7, 2008)

I hope someone didn't already post this earlier in the thread, but there is a way to rewrite the Rage Strike ability that might be easier to understand, and alleviate some of the complaints about "getting a class ability that you can't use".

Eliminate the Rage Strike At-Will power.  Its totally gone.

For all the Rages above 1st level, add some sort of text to the power similar this:
Special:  If you are already raging when you use this power, instead of manifesting this power's rage, you may choose to have this power deal +2[W] damage.

Now, it wouldn't always be 2[W] damage, but you could choose bonus damage values to match the original values from Rage Strike.

(OK, I finally got to page 7 of the thread, and I see that somebody already suggested something like this.)


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## Jack99 (Oct 7, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Thoughts on Barbarians, mostly parroting what others have said:
> 
> - With this and the spellsword class, I think we're seeing a definite power creep, and it's one that's already starting very early on.
> - Lots of stuff here is poorly written, and I think there's one in particular we're ALL talking about.  Even if you personally don't see a problem with it, it's pretty obvious that a lot of people do.




First of all, its Swordmage. Second of all, maybe you should start parroting some other people, because frankly, they have little clue what they are talking about. Or maybe you should play some 4e ><

Swordmage is definitely not broken nor overpowered, and thus not the result of a powercreep. If you have other info, please point me to where there is such a consensus (or anything ressembling that). And from the initial debate about the Barbarian, it definitely doesn't seem he is either. Sure, maybe there is one or two powers that need fixing, but that is not the same as being overpowered.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 7, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Swordmage is definitely not broken nor overpowered, and thus not the result of a powercreep. If you have other info, please point me to where there is such a consensus (or anything ressembling that). And from the initial debate about the Barbarian, it definitely doesn't seem he is either. Sure, maybe there is one or two powers that need fixing, but that is not the same as being overpowered.




welll I will agree I do not at this time feel swordmage is overpowered...it is too new to say for sure. Ask again around Dec when everyone playing one has put it through it's paces...then we can talk power creep.

As for Barbarian, there is NO way to be sure from a beta half class, but it does give us some ideas...since it went up today...well yesterday now lets give it a few weeks. Even if someone made one at midnight, they at most played 1 maybe 2 games with it. Lets see how it holds up with Playing...not reading


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## Rechan (Oct 7, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> 4) Striker with defender hitpoints. I absolutely applaud this. I do NOT want the classes to become so straightjacketed by rules that we sacrifice good class design for conformity. This was the problem with monsters in 3e, writers found it hard to make good monsters that had to conform to the formula.
> 
> Now I'm not saying the barbarian is currently balanced with defender HP, but I'm sure it could be. But I do not want roles to become the tomb for good class design, and I'm pleased to see WOTC is willing to push the envelope a bit on this one.




Indeed. 

In fact, take a look at the Swordmage as another example of this:

Defender
HP: 15+Con Score
HP per level: 6
Healing Surges per day: 8 + Con mod.

Armor prof: Cloth, leather
Weapon Prof: Simple melee, military heavy and light blades, simple ranged. 

Compare to the Fighter: +1 Healing Surge, Prof in armor up to scale, all shields, all military melee and ranged weapons. 
Compare to the Paladin: +2 Healing surges, prof in all armors/shields, all military weapons, +1 to all non AC defenses. 

In fact, looking at the barbarian, their stats are very similar to the Swordmage. Same HP/Surges, limited armor, and only military/simple melee weapons.


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## Vael (Oct 7, 2008)

Zerovoid said:


> I hope someone didn't already post this earlier in the thread, but there is a way to rewrite the Rage Strike ability that might be easier to understand, and alleviate some of the complaints about "getting a class ability that you can't use".
> 
> Eliminate the Rage Strike At-Will power.  Its totally gone.
> 
> ...




There are 7 levels of Daily powers, averaging 3-4 powers per level, and you want to add 2-3 lines of practically identical text to all of them, when one power will suffice?

I really don't see the problem with Rage Strike, it's a rather simple mechanic to me, nor do I consider the fact that you can't use it until level 5 a problem. That said, I don't mind removing the requirement that you be in a rage from it.


----------



## Ondo (Oct 7, 2008)

Personally, I see two issues with Rage Strike - it's inelegant, and it replaces your coolest powers with something very boring.

I'd suggest, as others have, that they add text to every daily that gives an additional option if you are already in a rage; however, rather than duplicating the current functionality of Rage Strike, make the attack different and flavorful for each power.  For example, Frost Wolf Rage might do 4W cold damage; Swift Panther Rage might be usable as part of a charge, and so forth.

Also, out of curiosity, what would break if rages just stacked?


----------



## kevtar (Oct 7, 2008)

*My bad*



Cadfan said:


> I'm against.
> 
> 1. If I'm using something, its not unused.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I read my original post again and realized I had written it was "not an unused rage." I meant it was an unused rage. I've clarified the original claim. Where's my editor!


----------



## Ulrik (Oct 7, 2008)

Ondo said:


> Also, out of curiosity, what would break if rages just stacked?




I'd guess that it would be mostly bad for the barbarian anyway, as the effect from the power is only half the benefit - unless they get to double all other rage bonuses, like extra damage from at wills


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 7, 2008)

Ulrik said:


> I'd guess that it would be mostly bad for the barbarian anyway, as the effect from the power is only half the benefit - unless they get to double all other rage bonuses, like extra damage from at wills



 Bloodhunt Level 1 + Level 5 Tunderhawk: Con damage to bloodied or if you bloodied added. And knock adjacent ememies prone as free action.

Kinda nice.


----------



## Staffan (Oct 7, 2008)

zsek320 said:


> My quick fix is that if you are bloodied you are considered raging for the purpose of powers requiring you to be in a rage.... that way if you really want to you could use your level 1 daily at level 1.



So, a 1st level barbarian could either:



Use Bloodhunt Rage, making an attack that deals 3W+Str damage, half on a miss, and for the rest of the encounter do +Con to melee damage rolls if either he or his opponent is bloodied.
Use Rage Strike powered by Bloodhunt Rage, making an attack that deals 3W+Str damage, half on a miss.
I know which one I'd choose.


----------



## Klaus (Oct 7, 2008)

mhacdebhandia said:


> Glass houses, Claudio. Glass houses.



Why?

All are valid observations. Had I done those pics, I'd hear the same things from professional Art Directors, because it's the Art Director's job to nitpick. Argyle's pictures are technically very good, but there are weak spots that the trained eye can see that make the pictures a bit "awkward".


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## D.Shaffer (Oct 7, 2008)

zsek320 said:


> I agree with most of what the thread is saying. Rage Strike is klunky as is and my main beef is that you cannot use it until level 5.
> 
> My quick fix is that if you are bloodied you are considered raging for the purpose of powers requiring you to be in a rage.... that way if you really want to you could use your level 1 daily at level 1..



I had a similar idea.  I really liked the more berserker style feel of the Barbarian, and rather a player wasnt forced to use a daily to properly play one.

SOmething like this? I dont have the books with me, so I'm sure I left out some proper identifiers.  

First, remove the bonus damage from the at-wills.  Then...
*Berserk* - Class Feature
_You've had all you can stand and you cant stand no more_
*At-Will:* Primal, Rage
Free Action                                   
*Requirement:* You must be bloodied to use this power.
*Target:* Yourself
*Effect:* While Beserk you gain a +2 damage bonus to all melee attacks.

Also not to find of Raging Strike as it stands.  I'd rather the rage tag itself has the damage bonus ability added to it, or have the rage power itself list the bonus damage it can be sacrificed for.  Additionally, to combat the 'armor' problem, add something to Rage such as 'While Raging, you may add your Con or Int modifier to your AC while wearing Light Armor'


----------



## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 7, 2008)

me likey! Muhaha!! 

_"Minsc leads! SWORDS FOR *EVERYONE*!"_


----------



## Runestar (Oct 7, 2008)

Anyone think that this auto-tripping powers are setting a bad precedence? Now you can knock anyone prone, regardless of who they are or what they try to do. Before that, I thought it funny that a dire wolf could trip a tarrasque (though it was unlikely, since it needed a natural 20). Now, the barb can trip automatically without the need for an attack roll! And at just 5th lv. No matter what foe he faces, be it a dragon, Orcus or even a God...


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## Ulrik (Oct 7, 2008)

Starbuck_II said:


> Bloodhunt Level 1 + Level 5 Tunderhawk: Con damage to bloodied or if you bloodied added. And knock adjacent ememies prone as free action.
> 
> Kinda nice.




Sure. But the other half of the benefits, like +1D6 damage for Pressing Strike or +5 temp HP for Recuperating Strike, are nice too. And you're not getting them for the second power.

Now that I looked on the at wills again, I think it will be painful to make a barb. Which of those *juicy* powers will you leave out?


----------



## Cadfan (Oct 7, 2008)

Ulrik said:


> Sure. But the other half of the benefits, like +1D6 damage for Pressing Strike or +5 temp HP for Recuperating Strike, are nice too. And you're not getting them for the second power.
> 
> Now that I looked on the at wills again, I think it will be painful to make a barb. Which of those *juicy* powers will you leave out?



Human barbarians don't leave out any.  That's my solution.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Oct 7, 2008)

Klaus said:


> All are valid observations. Had I done those pics, I'd hear the same things from professional Art Directors, because it's the Art Director's job to nitpick.




Because the majority of people on here aren't professional Art Directors. Also, some of the criticisms are even overly picky for an Art Director.


----------



## Dragonblade (Oct 7, 2008)

gribble said:


> Optimised Barbarian:
> Str (26) +8
> Magic Weapon +5
> Weapon Focus +3
> ...




Ah, I read the power and assumed that each attack had to be against a different target. That makes a difference. 

Hmm, let's get some clarification on this from WotC. If you can attack the same target multiple times, I would limit the power to 3 or 4 attacks, not 6. If all attacks have to be made against different targets then I think the power is fine as is.


----------



## Gloombunny (Oct 7, 2008)

I think the best replacement for Rage Strike would be to add a general rule about rage powers that, if you're already raging, you can forego the lasting-buff part of the power to increase the damage of the attack.  You'd still use the damage and effects of the attack as listed in the power, but throw in, say, an extra [W] per tier.  (That's the tier that level of the power is in, not the tier the character is in.)

Though I wouldn't really mind if they just kept it as is and threw in a little sidebar explaining what it's actually for.


----------



## Dragonblade (Oct 7, 2008)

Ethalias said:


> Man that smiley looks mean! You'll be glad to hear that in my own clumsy attempts to keep it brief I appear to have mislead you.  I am, like you, concerned that armour feats are necessary to bring the Barbarian up to speed in a fashion that could detract from its flavour if taken to extremes.  However that's just based on what I've read here, I could well be wrong.
> 
> *EDIT* Some other fair comments on my vote. AC appears to be a more complex issue than I'd credited it for. I stand by the need for a little explaination for Rage Strike, though I believe it functions perfectly well as is..
> 
> ...




Sorry! I was just raging. 

I think the Barbarian flavor lends itself to lighter armor, but the Barbarian really needs those armor feats. It was driving me nuts when people kept saying the barbarian needed some sort of armor restriction. That's not what the class needs. It needs some kind of innate armor bonus.

For example, perhaps a class feature that grants an AC bonus when wearing light or no armor that increases in potency based on tier. I would say maybe +2 at Heroic, +4 at Paragon, and +6 at Epic.


----------



## Klaus (Oct 7, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> Because the majority of people on here aren't professional Art Directors. Also, some of the criticisms are even overly picky for an Art Director.



Then I've been plagued with tons of overly nitpicky Art Directors, because the abs in the leaping barbarian and the faulty foreshortening in the tiefling vs. dragon one wouldn't fly with any of them.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Oct 7, 2008)

Klaus said:


> Then I've been plagued with tons of overly nitpicky Art Directors, because the abs in the leaping barbarian and the faulty foreshortening in the tiefling vs. dragon one wouldn't fly with any of them.




They wouldn't fly with me either...


----------



## Hawke (Oct 7, 2008)

Dragonblade said:


> For example, perhaps a class feature that grants an AC bonus when wearing light or no armor that increases in potency based on tier. I would say maybe +2 at Heroic, +4 at Paragon, and +6 at Epic.




That could work provided that the requirement was they were only wearing the base armor. Pick feats to jump above that and you lose the bonus... but potentially pick up some various magic items.


----------



## MrFilthyIke (Oct 7, 2008)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> me likey! Muhaha!!
> 
> _"Minsc leads! SWORDS FOR *EVERYONE*!"_




God bless Minsc, the best character ever created for D&D.

Ever.

EVOR.


----------



## Chris_Nightwing (Oct 7, 2008)

Well here are my (rapidly diminishing in value) 2 (low denomination coins):

1) AC is definitely an issue. Allowing the use of Con or Cha may help this, since secondary stats will be 14-16, making it still worthwhile for some builds to go for heavy armour.

2) I don't like any of the rage mechanics. You can still ONLY RAGE ONCE A DAY until level 5, and then at most you'll get three times a day AND you have a power that encourages you to burn them off for random extra damage. I would much prefer raging to be a trade-off situation you can always use, with their big daily powers only usable in a rage - tie it to being bloodied or similar.

3) There will be multiclass problems as just two feats get you a super-rage power, which lasts all encounter, and for other strikers it will look just too tempting.

4) Aside from that, the basics seem to capture the messy combat associated with the barbarian, but when you're not raging, you're a bit dull. Wizards kill minions, strikers can always do extra damage with a bit of effort, defenders get to mark, leaders help everyone out, barbarians.. get the odd extra attack?


----------



## Spatula (Oct 7, 2008)

Ondo said:


> Also, out of curiosity, what would break if rages just stacked?



That would depend on the design of all current and potential future rages.  If they did stack, you'd be limiting what a prospective new rage could do - you'd have to see how well it synergizes with every other rage out there, and ditch concepts that produce unusually effective combos.



Chris_Nightwing said:


> 2) I don't like any of the rage mechanics. You can still ONLY RAGE ONCE A DAY until level 5, and then at most you'll get three times a day AND you have a power that encourages you to burn them off for random extra damage.



This is a good point.


----------



## occam (Oct 7, 2008)

Klaus said:


> It is technically well-done but the proportions of the lead barbarian are all over the place, specially the ginormous head.




And how about the fact that the dragonborn's axe appears to be floating behind his right fist? It's an exciting piece, but that detail bugs me. I've noticed the same problem with closed fists in other recent _Dragon_ and _Dungeon_ artwork.

Also, have I forgotten or never noticed something? Are dragonborns supposed to be covered in fur? It doesn't look like part of any clothing.


----------



## zsek320 (Oct 7, 2008)

I think WotC should make one fix for the barbarian...

Add the following to Rage... 
If you are bloodied then you are considered raging for the use of powers...

This allows the use of Rage Strike at level 1 and it also gives the barbarian a reason to keep a low AC because he wants to stay at the bloodied mark so he can be more effective with his abilities...

Another thing is that the build presented thrives on Temp HP... which gives the barbarian extra survivability from attacks... he might take half or no damage from the attack

Another thing is that the barbarian presents a very interesting choice for an enemy that is marked by the defender... does the enemy attack the easy to hit thing that is dealing a ton of damage? or does it go after the defender... 

In a play test the dwarf barbarian was doing just fine with a low AC of 14...


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## Cadfan (Oct 7, 2008)

zsek320 said:


> In a play test the dwarf barbarian was doing just fine with a low AC of 14...



The AC problem isn't that a 14 ac is low.

Its this.

There's a presumed rate of growth for your AC.  As you go up in levels, you can follow two tracks.  If you have heavy armor, you get new materials that provide very big boosts to your AC and which stack with your armor enhancement bonus.  If you have light armor, you also get new materials, but they provide only a small boost to your AC, but if you invest in dexterity or intelligence every level that small boost plus the boost from your increased dex or int will be exactly as good as the boost that the heavy armor guys got from just their metal armor.

Barbarians are designed to use strength, then con or charisma.  That means that they have a difficult choice.  They can improve con or charisma, and get a big boost to their class abilities.  But if they do this they can't keep up with the AC growth rate.  They could instead improve dex or int, but if they do this they miss out on a bunch of good class abilities.

Imagine if your barbarian had an armor class of 11.  That's what it would be like at epic tier if you continue wearing hide armor and don't put points into dex.


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## Andor (Oct 7, 2008)

Chris_Nightwing said:


> Well here are my (rapidly diminishing in value) 2 (low denomination coins):
> 
> 4) Aside from that, the basics seem to capture the messy combat associated with the barbarian, but when you're not raging, you're a bit dull. Wizards kill minions, strikers can always do extra damage with a bit of effort, defenders get to mark, leaders help everyone out, barbarians.. get the odd extra attack?




Barbarians are always in the thick of it, they drop somebody and and charge right on to the next poor shlub. Plus they knock foes around like 9 pins with all of their 'drop a foe prone' powers. Think of them as an enraged bowling ball with an axe.


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## Seule (Oct 7, 2008)

I note an interesting synergy... or the reverse I guess.
Rage ends when you hit 0 hitpoints.
Frenzied Berserkers don't drop when they hit 0 hitpoints, but instead when they fail a death save. However, they'll still drop out of Rage.
I wonder if this was intended.

  --Penn


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## Dragonblade (Oct 7, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> The AC problem isn't that a 14 ac is low.
> 
> Its this.
> 
> ...




Excellent synopsis. Which is why Barbarians really need those heavy armor feats to survive. Of course, that breaks the genre notion that Barbarians should only be lightly armored. Hence my idea of giving them an innate AC bonus that icnreases based on tier that only applies when wearing light or no armor.

This should prevent them from being too handicapped in the AC arms race compared to other classes.


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## Cadfan (Oct 7, 2008)

That would work. The loss is +3 over the course of 3 tiers, so +1 per tier would do alright.


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## Klaus (Oct 7, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> They wouldn't fly with me either...



I could kiss you, but I don't swing that way. 

BTW, I want to send you my portfolio link. Which e-mail do I send it to?


----------



## Klaus (Oct 7, 2008)

occam said:


> And how about the fact that the dragonborn's axe appears to be floating behind his right fist? It's an exciting piece, but that detail bugs me. I've noticed the same problem with closed fists in other recent _Dragon_ and _Dungeon_ artwork.
> 
> Also, have I forgotten or never noticed something? Are dragonborns supposed to be covered in fur? It doesn't look like part of any clothing.



I noticed the fur, too.

It's either clothing, or he's channeling some old-school berserker thing (but then the flaming image above him should've been a bear, not a dragon, right?). But that'd be more of a 4e druid's province.


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## Felon (Oct 7, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> The AC problem isn't that a 14 ac is low.
> 
> Its this.
> 
> ...




So, barbarians are currently in the same boat as warlocks, but tougher.


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## Dalamar (Oct 7, 2008)

I would think that the AC conundrum is exactly why they have Defender HP despite being Strikers.


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## Felon (Oct 7, 2008)

Dalamar said:


> I would think that the AC conundrum is exactly why they have Defender HP despite being Strikers.



That, plus an at-will power that will supply a steady stream of temp HP.


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## Ulrik (Oct 7, 2008)

Dalamar said:


> I would think that the AC conundrum is exactly why they have Defender HP despite being Strikers.




But if they're balanced with low dex/int and light armour, what happens when they ineviatbly pick Chain proficiency?


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## Cadfan (Oct 7, 2008)

Felon said:


> So, barbarians are currently in the same boat as warlocks, but tougher.



As Star Pact warlocks, yes.

Its a little worse for the barbarian, because that Con modifier shows up absolutely everywhere in the powers and class bonuses previewed.  But its basically the same boat.  ...but its also a little easier for the barbarian, because pumping con will let them easily meet the chainmail armor prereqs, while the star pact warlock has to put some points into Str to get that.  ...but the star pact warlock is a ranged combatant, and the barbarian is melee.  ...but the barbarian has all those (con-keyed) abilities that give him temporary hit points.

So... different boats, same river?


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## falcarrion (Oct 7, 2008)

hows this for uber human barbarian tactis at first level.
lets say you have 100 orc minions in a straight row 9 squares apart.
you have the fast runner feat, the swift panther rage, and the rage blood vigor class which gives you the swift charge.
lets assume each time you attack you do at least 1 point of damge. 

the first orc is is diagonal to you but base to base. first you rage and take him out. you now can move 10 when charging 6 base +2 fast running +2 swift panther rage. with swift charge you can charge the next figure and attack as a free action. You take him out and charge again. and so on and so on until all are dead. now add the howling strike for the attack of the charge  and your just one deadly human barbarian.


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## Merlin the Tuna (Oct 7, 2008)

falcarrion said:


> lets say you have 100 orc minions in a straight row 9 squares apart.



Today, on "Signs that your hypothetical may be a bit silly"...


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## Drakhar (Oct 7, 2008)

That would be great...if Swift Charge weren't an encounter power.


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## Ulrik (Oct 7, 2008)

falcarrion said:


> the first orc is is diagonal to you but base to base. first you rage and take him out. you now can move 10 when charging 6 base +2 fast running +2 swift panther rage. with swift charge you can charge the next figure and attack as a free action. You take him out and charge again. and so on and so on until all are dead. now add the howling strike for the attack of the charge  and your just one deadly human barbarian.




Cute, but Swift Charge is an encounter power 

edit: damn, beaten to the punch.


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## JesterOC (Oct 7, 2008)

I'm guessing that the recoop strike will help with the lack of High AC.  On the other hand the player who may be running a barbarian in my game is going to go pick Chain and Scale feats for their 4th level barbarian. (It will be a direct replacement of the fighter PC that was a stand-in until the Barbarian arrived.  She picked up the black scale armor from the shadowfell keep adventure and wants to keep it.)

We shall see how it does.

So far, just looking at low level powers, I think the barbarian is fine as written.

JesterOC


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 7, 2008)

MrFilthyIke said:


> God bless Minsc, the best character ever created for D&D.
> 
> Ever.
> 
> EVOR.



 He fits the 4th Edition Barb: 
He can't Rage more than 1/day at low levels (and you don't want to be near him when the enemies are dead, he'll attack you) and he always wears heavy/meduim armor which is Heavy in 4th.
I tried to wear light, but heavy was just better fior him in the game.

I love the character. And Boo as well.


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## falcarrion (Oct 7, 2008)

I see your point but it can be argued that since it is a free action, and your doing it all in one turn with in the encounter then it is legit.
Maybe they should change it from free action to minor action then.


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## Drakhar (Oct 7, 2008)

Free action or not you're still Charging and a charge ends your turn.


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## falcarrion (Oct 7, 2008)

after you do a charge are you able to perform a free action?


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## Drakhar (Oct 7, 2008)

Nope. Charge specifically says, you can't take any further actions this turn unless you spend an action point to take an extra action. 

So you can charge a minion, drop it, use an action point to activate swift charge and take out another one. That's it.


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## cdrcjsn (Oct 7, 2008)

Dalamar said:


> I would think that the AC conundrum is exactly why they have Defender HP despite being Strikers.




This.

If they have the same AC as other strikers then they would most likely have the same hit points as other strikers, otherwise they'll be overpowered.

Their defense is hit points.

I don't think it would sit well with anyone if the Barbarian has the same hit points as a Rogue, so we're stuck with lower AC.


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## cdrcjsn (Oct 7, 2008)

Ulrik said:


> But if they're balanced with low dex/int and light armour, what happens when they ineviatbly pick Chain proficiency?




Then you've identified a potential problem with the class.  =)

I doubt anyone envisions barbarians in full plates when they think of the class, so this is probably something that should be brought to the attention of the designers as a potential flaw (if they're not aware of it already).


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## craggle (Oct 7, 2008)

Forgive me if this may have been raised before, but could it be the case that there will be other options to enter a Rage besides the Barbarian's powers?  Perhaps some item with a Rage of it's own: other classes can get the benefit of the Rage on the item, but the Barbarian has extra options.  If such items could conceivably be obtained before level 5, it could be conceivable to require the class feature before the class obtains two class Daily powers.

Or perhaps Rage is a condition that may be introduced with PHB2 with some penalty given.  Say, an inability to use Daily powers (due to lack of focus).  As a condition, it could then be used in mind-affecting "enrage" spells, or "mind-rotting" diseases, but due to their familiarity with blood-lust, Barbarian's are able to channel some of their Dailies into an alternative option.


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## Dragonblade (Oct 7, 2008)

cdrcjsn said:


> Then you've identified a potential problem with the class.  =)
> 
> I doubt anyone envisions barbarians in full plates when they think of the class, so this is probably something that should be brought to the attention of the designers as a potential flaw (if they're not aware of it already).




Um, no. They are not balanced with low dex/int and light armor. The design flaw in the class is the fact that they HAVE to take armor feats, not that they can.

And no, their Defender HP doesn't cut it especially since they will be in the middle of melee. Its not a significant enough HP boost to justify their horrible AC. They would get shredded.


----------



## Felon (Oct 8, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> As Star Pact warlocks, yes.
> 
> Its a little worse for the barbarian, because that Con modifier shows up absolutely everywhere in the powers and class bonuses previewed.  But its basically the same boat.  ...but its also a little easier for the barbarian, because pumping con will let them easily meet the chainmail armor prereqs, while the star pact warlock has to put some points into Str to get that.  ...but the star pact warlock is a ranged combatant, and the barbarian is melee.  ...but the barbarian has all those (con-keyed) abilities that give him temporary hit points.
> 
> So... different boats, same river?



I'd say the warlock is in worse shape, and it's not just limited to star pact either. True, the warlock has ranged attacks, but they're very short range; he's not sniping from a clock tower or anything. It's short enough that enemies can close the distance to melee if they desire, and that's to say nothing of the fact that (contrary to the bizarre notion I've encountered often) quite a few monsters are actually quite capable of attacking from range themselves. In general, monsters can pull off a lot of the same maneuvers that PC's can, so if they're consistently pancaking against the party's front line, then that's just that particular DM allowing things to happen that way by not using skirmishers, lurkers, and artillery monsters to good effect.

And once the flawed notion that ranged attacks equate to safety is off the table, then what's left? The warlock has both lower defense and lower offense than the other strikers, barb included.


cdrcjsn said:


> This.
> 
> If they have the same AC as other strikers then they would most likely have the same hit points as other strikers, otherwise they'll be overpowered.
> 
> ...



See above. Apparently, it must be balanced since the 'lock, whose limited to leather, is stuck with the same HP as a rogue.


----------



## falcarrion (Oct 8, 2008)

Drakhar I agree that is how it should be.
But knowing some of the people I have played D&D with this just what would come up.

Now you stated that the general description of charge states your turn ends.
but specific desriptions overide general desriptions.
Thus in Swift Charge it has a trigger.
which states: your attack reduces the enemy to 0 hit points.
then the effect of the charge happens again.
I see it as a never ending loop. the trigger going off every time the enemy reaches 0 hit points, until you miss or you don't do enough damage to reduce it to 0 hit points.


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## Drakhar (Oct 8, 2008)

Except it doesn't cause a never ending loop. You can't use an Encounter power more then once an Encounter (Unless it says otherwise I.E Healing Word) Thus after the charge caused by Swift charge, the power is gone until you rest.


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## Runestar (Oct 8, 2008)

So if barbs were given more hp, surges and temp hp to compensate for their supposedly lower AC, what then happens when players are still able to crank up their AC to defender-levels? Is this expected and necessary, or ...? As noted, the armour feat tree seems like a no-brainer here!


----------



## JVisgaitis (Oct 8, 2008)

Klaus said:


> I could kiss you, but I don't swing that way.
> 
> BTW, I want to send you my portfolio link. Which e-mail do I send it to?




I have to warn you, we're probably one of the hardest companies that you would ever do art for... You can view the art guidelines here: Inner Circle Art Guidelines. You can just email me direct at:

jeff [at] innercircle.us.com


----------



## Ulrik (Oct 8, 2008)

Felon said:


> I'd say the warlock is in worse shape




AFAIK concealment and cover stack, so the warlock gets a -2 (for concealment) that's rare to get otherwise (cover generally being more available). That helps on heroic at least, although it pales in comparison to the +9 dex a rogue or bow ranger gets at 30.

An infernal lock with chain, on the other hand, should be one of the more solid strikers. (And if he starts with chain, he will be able to go all the way to plate specialization at epic levels, at the meager cost of four feats


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## Cadfan (Oct 8, 2008)

Felon said:


> And once the flawed notion that ranged attacks equate to safety is off the table, then what's left? The warlock has both lower defense and lower offense than the other strikers, barb included./quote]
> Its not a flawed notion once you understand it instead of reducing it to some straw man shell of itself.  Range, even a mere 10 space range, is not magical "I'm in a clocktower and you can't hit me" safety, but it is _comparative_ safety if you contrast a ranged character with a melee character with the same stats.  Its not about never being attacked, its about being attacked less often.
> 
> ...not to mention that they have at will powers explicitly designed to stop enemies from closing range with them.  I don't want to go too far with this since I do agree that Star Pact warlocks got kind of screwed on AC if/when they go for both Con and Cha, which they kind of have to do at the moment since there aren't really enough powers to run one that goes just Con and Int or Cha and Int.  But I do think its pretty obvious that attacking from behind the fighter is safer than being on the front line.  Its not a perfect shield, but its a definite advantage.


----------



## Ethalias (Oct 8, 2008)

Dragonblade said:


> Sorry! I was just raging.
> 
> I think the Barbarian flavor lends itself to lighter armor, but the Barbarian really needs those armor feats. It was driving me nuts when people kept saying the barbarian needed some sort of armor restriction. That's not what the class needs. It needs some kind of innate armor bonus.
> 
> For example, perhaps a class feature that grants an AC bonus when wearing light or no armor that increases in potency based on tier. I would say maybe +2 at Heroic, +4 at Paragon, and +6 at Epic.




I was thinking along those lines too.  I'm now interested to hear how the AC/(temp)HP balance works out in play.  If I had 8 days in my week I'd run one through some tests. Sadly the Beatles sold me down the river..


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## Klaus (Oct 8, 2008)

JVisgaitis said:


> I have to warn you, we're probably one of the hardest companies that you would ever do art for... You can view the art guidelines here: Inner Circle Art Guidelines. You can just email me direct at:
> 
> jeff [at] innercircle.us.com



Duly noted, and e-mail sent.


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## yesnomu (Oct 8, 2008)

Ulrik said:


> AFAIK concealment and cover stack, so the warlock gets a -2 (for concealment) that's rare to get otherwise (cover generally being more available). That helps on heroic at least, although it pales in comparison to the +9 dex a rogue or bow ranger gets at 30.
> 
> *An infernal lock with chain, on the other hand, should be one of the more solid strikers*. (And if he starts with chain, he will be able to go all the way to plate specialization at epic levels, at the meager cost of four feats



Huh? Why would any warlock want heavy armor? A infernal warlock will pump Con and Int, and Fey and Star (if Dragon is allowed) should pump Int and Cha. Heavy armor is a total waste. They should stick with hide, at most, and like it! AC should be absolutely in line with rogues and bow rangers, and way ahead of TWF rangers.


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## Cadfan (Oct 8, 2008)

yesnomu said:


> Huh? Why would any warlock want heavy armor? A infernal warlock will pump Con and Int, and Fey and Star (if Dragon is allowed) should pump Int and Cha. Heavy armor is a total waste. They should stick with hide, at most, and like it! AC should be absolutely in line with rogues and bow rangers, and way ahead of TWF rangers.



I don't know why an infernal lock would bother with chain, but a star pact might want to go con and cha (for the largest variety of powers), which leaves him with no way to pump int.  In that case, he would want chain.

TWF rangers do just fine in terms of AC because they pump Str and Dex.  Wis just doesn't do enough for them.  It provides benefits, but just not all that many benefits in comparison to what they could get from Dex.


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## Drakhar (Oct 8, 2008)

Why would a TWF Ranger pump Dex? They'd be far better pumping Con or Wis and taking heavy armor.


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## Cadfan (Oct 8, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> Why would a TWF Ranger pump Dex? They'd be far better pumping Con or Wis and taking heavy armor.



That is indeed an option.  But its not the only one, since Wis doesn't do that much for them, nor does Con, and Dex helps with a lot of skills they favor.


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## Gloombunny (Oct 8, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> Why would a TWF Ranger pump Dex? They'd be far better pumping Con or Wis and taking heavy armor.



You can go that route, and probably multi into fighter to get Kensei or Pit Fighter bonuses to all your attacks.  But you could also pump Dex, pick up Scimitar Dance, and go into Stormwarden for hefty guaranteed damage every round.  Both methods are viable.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 8, 2008)

After thinking about it more, there's only one issue with the barb class right now.

The heavy armor issue.

Everything else can be sorted in playtesting, is the defender hp too high, are rages too limited, does the barb do too much damage, too little, is rage strike too clunky etc etc.

But the heavy armor issue is a gimme. A barb can often score +3 to AC with one feat, its going to happen. And the balance of the barb that hinges on low AC would be defeated.

So I say, play your barbs, take that chain mail, and see how he plays. If its solid, maybe WOTC can create some mechanics to keep the barb in light armor for flavor. If its too good, we might some some more grand changes.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 8, 2008)

I do have one question on the wording of thunder hawk rage.

Are you intended to knock prone everyone around you, or just one target.

As a free action, there's nothing to stop a barb from knocking down all adjacent opponents. But then you could just say "at the beginning of your turn, you can knock all adjacent enemies prone".

So I wonder if it meant to allow only one creature at a time.


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## abyssaldeath (Oct 8, 2008)

playtest said:
			
		

> Effect: You manifest the rage of the thunder hawk. Until the rage ends, before you take any actions during each of your turns, you can knock *an* adjacent enemy prone as a free action.




It says you knock AN enemy prone. I take that to mean only one. Otherwise I think it would say "you can knock adjacent enemies prone".


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## Asmor (Oct 8, 2008)

One issue with heavy armor that I haven't seen addressed (of course, I may have missed it).

Will the speed penalty affect barbarians negatively? It seems like they want to be fast, but I'm not sure how important that really is.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 8, 2008)

Wow, I am just offline for a few days (thank you Deutsche Telekom for the swift transfer of my internet access), and it's already 10 pages of barbarian discussion. Well, I won't read it all.



Rechan said:


> "Thaneblood". Wonder what the hell that is (aside from the other build, obviously).




Thaneeblood? Did something happen to Thanee?


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## Hadrian the Builder (Oct 8, 2008)

I'd say the armor problem can be fixed by requiring the barbarian be in cloth, leather or hide to use his some (not all) powers. Similar to how the rogue powers often require you to be wielding a light blade, crossbow, or sling


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## garyh (Oct 8, 2008)

Asmor said:


> One issue with heavy armor that I haven't seen addressed (of course, I may have missed it).
> 
> Will the speed penalty affect barbarians negatively? It seems like they want to be fast, but I'm not sure how important that really is.




Even the speed issue is moot once Scale specialization is reached at paragon (although that requires some investment in Dex) or if you're barbarian is a dwarf.


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## Asmor (Oct 9, 2008)

garyh said:


> Even the speed issue is moot once Scale specialization is reached at paragon (although that requires some investment in Dex) or if you're barbarian is a dwarf.




That requires 3 feats (Armor Prof Chain, Armor Prof Scale, Armor Spec Scale) and a 15 dex which is otherwise completely useless to the barbarian (well, it's good for reflex defense and initiative, but still not a priority). If the barb's got 15 dex, that means he's forgoing at least a +2 AC bonus from that in order to wear scale.

At level 11, scale's 4 points better than hide, meaning the barb's spent 3 feats and a significant amount of stat points on a net gain of 2 ac. Granted, it's a bit more worth it with higher level armor (e.g. assuming a 16 dex, Elderscale is 8 points better than Elderhide, meaning a net gain of 5 AC points).

Actually, I take that back. It's really more like spending 3 feats, not 2, since if the barb stuck with hide he'd have to have taken hide proficiency to keep the numbers even. But it still seems like a fair trade-off to me.


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## mhacdebhandia (Oct 9, 2008)

Klaus said:


> Why?
> 
> All are valid observations.



I'm quite sure. I'm also quite sure that you're not, yourself, in a position to criticise in terms and using a tone which caused me to infer that you believe your art is better.


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 9, 2008)

Hadrian the Builder said:


> I'd say the armor problem can be fixed by requiring the barbarian be in cloth, leather or hide to use his some (not all) powers. Similar to how the rogue powers often require you to be wielding a light blade, crossbow, or sling



 Actually DDI has an alternate class feature that lets a Rogue use a Club or a mace:

This thread found it:
*Unrecognized Class Abilites in D&D Compendium? - Giant in the Playground Forums*

We think that they are from the new Martial power book, but still they exist.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 9, 2008)

Hadrian the Builder said:


> I'd say the armor problem can be fixed by requiring the barbarian be in cloth, leather or hide to use his some (not all) powers. Similar to how the rogue powers often require you to be wielding a light blade, crossbow, or sling




Which in my honest opinion would be the absolute worst fix they could do. I HATE the rogue weapon restrictions, so I really hope they don't do the same to the barbarian.


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## Klaus (Oct 9, 2008)

mhacdebhandia said:


> I'm quite sure. I'm also quite sure that you're not, yourself, in a position to criticise in terms and using a tone which caused me to infer that you believe your art is better.



Terms such as "near perfect" and "technically well-done", which I did use? And tone in a written media? I think you may be bringing too much baggage into your reading.

Steven Argyle does amazing work (and my favorite piece of his is the illustration of the "Heathen" adventure in Dungeon). But the more realistic your work is (and his is very realistic), the more little errors stand out.

And this is NOT about comparing his art to my own. This is about analyzing the art on the article.YOU're bringing my art into this. The fact that I'm an artist only means I have more understanding of it and can see flaws where the untrained eye only goes "ooh, shiny".

Why do you seem so worked up about this?


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## mhacdebhandia (Oct 9, 2008)

Klaus said:


> And this is NOT about comparing his art to my own. This is about analyzing the art on the article.YOU're bringing my art into this. The fact that I'm an artist only means I have more understanding of it and can see flaws where the untrained eye only goes "ooh, shiny".
> 
> Why do you seem so worked up about this?



Because you sound arrogant. You justify your making those criticisms because you're an artist too, and yet I think your art demonstrates that you have very little practical understanding of the theoretical principles upon which you've founded those criticisms.

That's why I said "glass houses". I don't care if you consider your training to have given you a privileged position when it comes to technical evaluation of art; your own art is not good enough for you to swan into nearly every thread about something with art in it and spout your fatuous criticisms concerning the anatomical proportions of artwork which demonstrates a better understanding of colour, linework, expression, and illustration than anything I have ever seen people drool all over your shoes for here.

I'm just sick of your nonsense, and this "who, me?" act isn't doing you any favours.


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## Dinkeldog (Oct 9, 2008)

And the discussion on the art in the article is now over.


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## Kosh (Oct 11, 2008)

I think the class looks awesome.  I really like the class abilities like Rampage and Swift Charge.  The rider effects from the Rage powers are interesting, too.  Also, it's nice to have a striker that focuses on two-handed weapons (at least that's how it seems to me).

I think they could do a better job with incentives, though.  Right now the class has no reason to stay with light armor besides speed.  I've played a fighter for about three levels now, and I've never had trouble charging with only 5 move.

The rage powers seem like they would be better as daily Utility powers, but PCs don't get Utility until second level, so I can see why they made them daily Attack powers.  I'm worried that people will continue complaining about Rage Strike (seems fine to me; it does what it needs to do to make daily Attack rage powers work for groups that don't have many fights in a day), so that probably needs to change.

Adding bonus damage for charges would be neat.  Maybe put the striker damage bonus on the charge to promote that.  The at-wills are crazy good; I can see a lot of half-elves taking a barbarian power for Dilettante.  Howling Strike and Recuperating Strike look fine, but Pressing Strike is nuts.  It's Tide of Iron and double Nimble Strike in melee.  I know the at-wills are supposed to be better because they don't have striker bonus dice as a class ability, but Pressing Strike goes a little too far, imo.

Well, those are my initial impressions.  I think a lot or all of it has been said before, but I figured I'd add another voice to the choir.


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## Asmor (Oct 13, 2008)

Not to beat a dead horse...

But I just wanted to mention that in the process of rolling up a barbarian, I stumbled across Veteran's armor, which is available as a level 2 magic item and lets you spend an action point to regain a daily power.

So, in other words, this is a suit of armor which it's very possible for a barbarian to get ahold of at level 1 and which would allow the barb to use the rage strike ability. Probably not worth it, to be honest, but there it is: a solid defense for them to have it at level 1.


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