# Cubicle 7 No Longer Producing The One Ring and Adventures in Middle Earth



## DND_Reborn

I've never played anything by Cubicle 7 but I have heard wonderful things. Sorry to hear of the difficulties.


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## KentDT

Yes, I have bought all their Adventures in Middle Earth for 5e and loved all of them and even had the collectors edition of The One Ring 2nd edition on pre-order, just as a collectors piece and because I love their art as well. It sounded like the 2nd edition book was almost finished.
I wonder what the situation is with Sophisticated Games and whether they can take the lines over from now.
Really terrible news, I absolutely enjoyed especially their stuff for 5e.


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## Nilbog

Sad news, they are quality products


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## Tales and Chronicles

I am sincerely heartbroken. With Hodgson departure to form his own company last year and this, I hope the company will be okay. I think their other product lines will be able to keep them afloat, but this is a major loss.


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## Ruin Explorer

Looks this was a decision forced upon them rather than taken by them, so I don't think they're "canning" them in the conventional sense. Tolkien licences can be extremely tricky and demanding to work, though it looks like it wasn't the Estate causing the issues here.


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## Ravenbrook

I think TOR is the third Middle Earth RPG to go down the drain. How sad.


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## sim-h

I suspect Vader:


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## darjr

This sucks


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## CapnZapp

Link to the press release quoted above: 






						UNEXPECTED TOR2 UPDATE – Cubicle 7
					






					www.cubicle7games.com


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## CapnZapp

vincegetorix said:


> I am sincerely heartbroken. With Hodgson departure to form his own company last year and this, I hope the company will be okay. I think their other product lines will be able to keep them afloat, but this is a major loss.



Perhaps he knew when to jump ship...


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## LuisCarlos17f

I think cucible7 has got future because not it is a company with enough prestige. The worst could happen would be be bought by a bigger firm. 

And everybody can publish a spiritual successor.


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## doctorbadwolf

Damn. I need to get my hands on all the books I’ve been meaning to get, soon.


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## Jacob Lewis

It was really a good quality system that not only embraced the philsophy of Tolkein, but showed how an RPG can do more than just combat and high-powered heroics. Even the 5e version was comendable in its attempt, though I truly prefer the One Ring rules as something unique and inspired. Looking forward to see what they develop next!


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## Shardstone

Tragedy.


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## Matchstick

A bunch of the TOR stuff is on sale for Black Friday right now in their shop.  https://www.cubicle7games.com/shop/

This is such a pity.  TOR is so wonderfully executed and true to the feel of the books.


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## sim-h

Their twitter feed has lots of "we can't comment on what happens after that" about the future of AiMe and TOR2 after their publishing expires first half 2020. Sounds like _something_ is therefore going to be happening, after that...


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## Morrus

sim-h said:


> Their twitter feed has lots of "we can't comment on what happens after that" about the future of AiMe and TOR2 after their publishing expires first half 2020. Sounds like _something_ is therefore going to be happening, after that...



Or maybe they don’t know yet. Depends how quickly this all happened.


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## Randomthoughts

I am in utter shock. I just got into TOR 1e when they had an earlier sale this year. I read the core books (and Companion Guide) from cover-to-cover - something I haven’t done since I first began role-playing.

they captured the books perfectly. And as a 4e D&D fan, offered some great ideas on social encounters and exploration.

I was eagerly awaiting 2e (which I got on pre-order) before starting a campaign. Now...I don’t need to I suppose...(sigh)


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## Nebulous

That does suck.  I never played any of their games but I've only heard good things.  I might have to pick some of those up.


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## Olgar Shiverstone

Oh, man, such a well done game with beautiful books -- and the fact that they had the 5E spin-off in Adventures in Middle Earth was just gravy.

Really sad now that the Moria book will never see the light of day.


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## Eric V

Never played ToR, but they were putting out the best 5e stuff, IMO.  Really sucks.


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## mykesfree

Company Wise, I heard Cubicle 7 is doing fantastic.  Also heard they got a jobs grant by the Irish Government.  I would expect more great work from this company.


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## Arilyn

This is a blow. I live their One Ring game.


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## Mistwell

I wonder if they can make a similar setting of their own. A low powered magical fantasy realm with a similar feel to middle earth without the direct links. There is definitely demand for a low level magic version of 5e. And since Moria wasn't finished yet, that would translate pretty darn well to 5e as it's the most D&D type thing about LOTR.


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## BookBarbarian

I ran a few Adventures of MIddle Earth games and despite some balance issues I loved it.

The Journey and Audience systems enriched the exploration and social pillars of 5e. The Wanderer class integrated with the Journey system to make a spell less ranger that was the most in demand class in the game.

Looks like I'll be picking up the rest of the AiME content so I can keep running games in it, and taking inspiration and ideas for my 5e games.


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## SirGalrim

Terrible news! I was so much looking forward to 2nd edition. Most of what they presented seemed awesome. And the new supplements sounded great. And so close to planned release it's ripped away?!? What forces are behind this? Sophisticated Games? And why don't C7 just publish the 2nd edition while they can? After all it's about done and ready! I want it even if I never get a supplement to it!


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## BookBarbarian

The fact that they are not rushing out TOR2 because they can't assure the quality in the time given impresses me. I mean pushing out what work they have to gain some quick capital would be easy.

It sucks, but it impresses me nonetheless.


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## darjr

Moria boxed set I lament thee!!!!!!


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## HawaiiSteveO

I have quite a few AiME purchases at drivethrurpg - will those disappear..?


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## AndromedaRPG

HawaiiSteveO said:


> I have quite a few AiME purchases at drivethrurpg - will those disappear..?



While I can't speak for AiME purchases, I can still download my DC Adventures books, which are no longer available for purchase.  So, my guess is that they will not disappear, but that is just a guess.  Maybe you want to download them just in case?


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## HawaiiSteveO

AndromedaRPG said:


> While I can't speak for AiME purchases, I can still download my DC Adventures books, which are no longer available for purchase.  So, my guess is that they will not disappear, but that is just a guess.  Maybe you want to download them just in case?




Still there for now, better just in case still selling ...


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## Haffrung

Judging by ToR 1e, at least, Crucible 7's expertise lies in making beautifully presented games that read great, but fall down at the table in gameplay. We gave it four sessions and gave up in frustration. 

But that's a wider problem in the hobby - outside a handful of the biggies, most RPGs have a tiny customer-base. That means boutique games designed to read well and impress critics, but are awkward and cludgey to actually play. Of course, the buyer who reads the glowing reviews won't know this - and may never know it if, like most buyers, he just reads the game, marvels at how impressive it seems, and puts it on the shelf with a dozen other unplayed boutique games.


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## PabloM

What a pity. I never played TOR but I liked it a lot. I run a couple of adventures in AiME, and I plan to do a short campaign. 
I really like how C7 dares to hack 5e without fear.

And yes, I'm going to miss that Moria boxed set.


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## Eric V

PabloM said:


> What a pity. I never played TOR but I liked it a lot. I run a couple of adventures in AiME, and I plan to do a short campaign.
> I really like how C7 dares to hack 5e without fear.
> 
> And yes, I'm going to miss that Moria boxed set.




Oh my gosh, "YES" to everything you typed.


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## scruffygrognard

Trying to buy stuff from their site and it has crashed.  Looks like they're getting a lot of traffic!


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## Enevhar Aldarion

I never liked the fact that they had to go through an intermediary company in Sophisticated Games to have access to the Tolkien license, instead of have a direct deal. Did Sophisticated Games get greedy from C7's success with the property or was their agreement to produce game material terminated, which in turn forced them to terminate their agreement with C7?


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## Hurin88

Haffrung said:


> Judging by ToR 1e, at least, Crucible 7's expertise lies in making beautifully presented games that read great, but fall down at the table in gameplay. We gave it four sessions and gave up in frustration.




Can you be a bit more specific about what you think failed? I just ask because I never got to play ToR 1e, and was wondering if it was worth trying. 

I am an old MERP/Rolemaster player, so complexity is not a problem for me. But I wonder what specifically was problematic in ToR 1e. 

Thanks


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## Count_Zero

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I never liked the fact that they had to go through an intermediary company in Sophisticated Games to have access to the Tolkien license, instead of have a direct deal. Did Sophisticated Games get greedy from C7's success with the property or was their agreement to produce game material terminated, which in turn forced them to terminate their agreement with C7?




I'd suspect that if Sophisticated Games deal was terminated we'd be seeing a similar notice from FFG and Asmodee.


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## Morrus

TOR was a good


Hurin88 said:


> Can you be a bit more specific about what you think failed? I just ask because I never got to play ToR 1e, and was wondering if it was worth trying.
> 
> I am an old MERP/Rolemaster player, so complexity is not a problem for me. But I wonder what specifically was problematic in ToR 1e.
> 
> Thanks



TOR1 is a great game. Sorry to hear Halfrung didn’t get along with it, but that experience is not universal.


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## Morrus

I bet the system developed for TOR2 survives and gets used in a more generically branded fantasy RPG.


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## darjr

I loved how TOR played. It was very evocative of the stories. The rule books however beautiful they were in prose and art were terrible rule books. The hard back was a necessary clean up.


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## darjr

Morrus said:


> I bet the system developed for TOR2 survives and gets used in a more generically branded fantasy RPG.



I hope so! I LOVED how “Magic” worked in TOR1


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## Doctor Futurity

Morrus said:


> I bet the system developed for TOR2 survives and gets used in a more generically branded fantasy RPG.




I would definitely buy that!


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## DragonBelow

This is very unfortunate, their products were so nice.


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## imagineGod

Absolutely shocked by this tragedy.


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## The Hierophant

A huge shame.


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## MonsterEnvy

Well in slightly good news this means they can focus more staff and effort on their other games.


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## Blue

The way Cubical7 is treating this is quality.  Upfront, no mudslings or anything negative, and them being upfront about the refund:



> Our immediate priority is to make the refunding process as easy as possible for those who pre-ordered from us. We understand your frustration and we sincerely apologise for this disappointment. If you pre-ordered *The One Ring – The Lord of the Rings Roleplaying Game* (standard or collector’s edition) or *Rohan Region Guide* directly from our webstore, you should have already received an email from us detailing your options and outlining any action required on your part.
> 
> We will be refunding you completely, or alternatively we would like to offer you 125% of the value of your order in Cubicle 7 store credit as a gesture of goodwill. This credit can be used across all of our other lines and future products. While those who pre-ordered *Rohan Region Guide *will have already received the PDF version, we will not be printing this title and you will also receive a full refund.
> 
> ...
> 
> If you wish to receive a full refund, you do not need to respond to the email, we *will automatically process your full refund *within the next 14 days.




Immediate refunds even though they had to already paid authors, artists, and the like. Full refund or 125% store credit. No need to take any action if you want the full refund - not trying to draw out the process. And those who ordered the Rohan Region Guide will get a full refund _even though they already received the PDF of the product._

That's just a class act.    On top of putting out good material.  Hat's off to them for treating customers right at a time that must truly suck for an RPG publishing company.  I'll buy from them again.


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## vilainn6

Morrus said:


> TOR was a good
> 
> TOR1 is a great game. Sorry to hear Halfrung didn’t get along with it, but that experience is not universal.



While not universal, that opinion is shared by many. TOR is well written but it system isn't as good as fan like to say.


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## Eric V

vilainn6 said:


> While not universal, that opinion is shared by many. TOR is well written but it system isn't as good as fan like to say.



Did your opinion change when reading AiME?


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## Dungeonosophy

Hope the unpublished-but-finished books are eventually leaked via a playtester or somebody.


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## Alzrius

Well this is a shame. I have all of the AiME books except for _Erebor Adventures_ (which, according to Amazon, won't actually come out for another two days); I just pre-ordered it now from the Cubicle7 webstore, and purchased the _Rohan Region Guide_ PDF over on DriveThruRPG since the print version has been cancelled. At least both sites are offering holiday sales at the moment...


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## Guest 6801328

darjr said:


> Moria boxed set I lament thee!!!!!!




Yeah, this.  1,000 times this.


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## doctorbadwolf

Haffrung said:


> Judging by ToR 1e, at least, Crucible 7's expertise lies in making beautifully presented games that read great, but fall down at the table in gameplay. We gave it four sessions and gave up in frustration.
> 
> But that's a wider problem in the hobby - outside a handful of the biggies, most RPGs have a tiny customer-base. That means boutique games designed to read well and impress critics, but are awkward and cludgey to actually play. Of course, the buyer who reads the glowing reviews won't know this - and may never know it if, like most buyers, he just reads the game, marvels at how impressive it seems, and puts it on the shelf with a dozen other unplayed boutique games.





vilainn6 said:


> While not universal, that opinion is shared by many. TOR is well written but it system isn't as good as fan like to say.




Wild! I’ve run and played quite a lot of the system, and rarely had any issue whatsoever with the system. It runs very smoothly, is incredibly good at evoking precisely what it means to evoke, and is just an easy blast to play or run. 

When I saw their 5e conversion my first thought was that I wish they’d do a general higher magic fantasy rpg on the same basic system as TOR instead. 

Only issue we ever had wasn’t even the system, just the organization, and the pdf index they put out solved that for the most part.


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## Ravenbrook

It's certainly one of the great pitfalls of doing licensed products. Game companies are probably better off to use proprietary campaign settings or works that are in the public domain (such as those of H.P. Lovecraft). I often wonder how long FFG can keep it's Star Wars license. You never know with Disney.


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## LuisCarlos17f

I guess Disney notices is better agreements with other companies if Hasbro asks too much in the negotiations about toys & board games merchandising. And deals for some years are a good way to test a company could be bought in the future.


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## Morrus

Eric V said:


> Did your opinion change when reading AiME?



I don’t understand the question. That’s a different system. It has no bearing in my opinion of TOR.

(ah, you were quoting somebody else. Sorry!)


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## sim-h

He's quoting the other guy (villain6), the one who didn't enjoy TOR. I guess he means did anybody who didn't like TOR, find AiME better. Delete this post if you want.


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## Matrix Sorcica

According to this post on rpg.net, there's still some (small) hope for the line.


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## SavageCole

Huge fan of Cubicle 7 here.  I’ve been a repeat customer for years and always thrilled with the quality of their products — including the AIME and TOR works.  My heart goes out to the team at C7 and to all the fans who’d preordered 2e.


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## EthanSental

Enjoyed reading the books since I enjoy LOTR and the Hobbit and other Tolkien works.  Never really used them in game and I did use the sale to pick up the 4 books I’ve missed lately so more enjoyable reading on the way!


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## Paragon Lost

doctorbadwolf said:


> Damn. I need to get my hands on all the books I’ve been meaning to get, soon.




 I saw the news yesterday morning on my Instagram feed due to following Cubicle Seven. I hadn't snagged the last three releases yet and since I'd been trying to support my FLGS I'd been buying the physical products from them and hadn't snagged the pdfs (which I like to also have). So in a panic I went to Cubicle Seven's site and and snagged the three recent physical books which came with pdfs free of charge.

 Then I went to DrivethruRpg and snagged the other eight products pdfs, all toll I tossed out $224.00 to get it all, but now i'm covered. So many well done rpgs out there and only so much free cash to spend on them. At least if I don't want my wife to beat me with a baseball bat.  lol.


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## darjr

Matrix Sorcica said:


> According to this
> 
> 
> vivsavage said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today I emailed Sophisiticated Games, expressing my hope that the lines would continue. I got a quick one-word response: "Correct!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> post on rpg.net, there's still some (small) hope for the line.
Click to expand...


What does that mean?


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## Matrix Sorcica

darjr said:


> What does that mean?



That's open to interpretation, hence the hope, however small it may be.


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## darjr

So C7 was the publisher? And sophisticated was the designers/writers? Or is it more complicated than that? Can sophisticated find another publisher? Or go it alone?


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## Morrus

darjr said:


> So C7 was the publisher? And sophisticated was the designers/writers? Or is it more complicated than that? Can sophisticated find another publisher? Or go it alone?



Sophisticated (a board game company, which produces LotR board games) has the overall license, and was sublicensing to Cubicle 7.


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## John R Davis

Very big fan of the game. Played it a whole lot. Could make a generic low magic fantasy game with the system.


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## doctorbadwolf

So, I have two sets of the original core books for TOR. I don’t have any real issue with them, but I understand that the single core book they sell for it now is much better organized. 

Is it worth grabbing if we aren’t hugely annoyed with the original set? 

I’m trying to figure out what to buy right now and what I can risk never getting lol.


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## TwiceBorn2

Makes me wonder... might Sophisticated sub-license to either Modiphius... or to FFG (who might view it as a lucrative opportunity to adapt the LotR RPG to their Genesys/narrative dice system, given the impending release of the Amazon TV series)??? FFG does generally have a bigger presence/share in the overall gaming market than either C7 or Modiphius. 

Just thinking aloud...


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## Morrus

TwiceBorn2 said:


> Makes me wonder... might Sophisticated sub-license to either Modiphius... or to FFG (who might view it as a lucrative opportunity to adapt the LotR RPG to their Genesys/narrative dice system, given the impending release of the Amazon TV series)??? FFG does generally have a bigger presence/share in the overall gaming market than either C7 or Modiphius.
> 
> Just thinking aloud...



Why? That would be weird.

Why is the narrative suddenly “which company could screw over Cubicle 7, and by the way we don’t care about the One Ring system they carefully developed”?

All these people know each other.


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## TwiceBorn2

If someone else thinks they can make a more profitable LotR RPG using a different system, then why not?

The maximization of profit is priority #1 for any business, ahead of loyalty to specific game mechanics.

Just idle speculation. I have no numbers to base this on (i.e., how well AiME is selling vs. The One Ring vs. other RPGs). I'll be happy if proven wrong.


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## Morrus

TwiceBorn2 said:


> If someone else thinks they can make a more profitable LotR RPG using a different system, then why not?




Maybe somebody might at some point, but Modiphius jumping in on Cubicle 7 would be... awkward. This is a tiny industry.



> The maximization of profit is priority #1 for any business,




Oh, god, no it's not. If it was, they'd all be selling drugs, not RPGs. Businesses have plenty of priorities beyond profit.



> Just idle speculation. I have no numbers to base this on




What numbers might you base "Makes me wonder... might Sophisticated sub-license to either Modiphius... or to FFG (who might view it as a lucrative opportunity to adapt the LotR RPG to their Genesys/narrative dice system, given the impending release of the Amazon TV series)???" on?


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## Guest 6801328

TwiceBorn2 said:


> Makes me wonder... might Sophisticated sub-license to either Modiphius... or to FFG (who might view it as a lucrative opportunity to adapt the LotR RPG to their Genesys/narrative dice system, given the impending release of the Amazon TV series)??? FFG does generally have a bigger presence/share in the overall gaming market than either C7 or Modiphius.
> 
> Just thinking aloud...




God I hope the next stage of this is NOT the license going to a company that loves to apply their universal, be-all-end-all system to every genre.

What made TOR a thing of beauty is that the rules were written from the ground up to fit a specific setting, and it worked amazingly.  Were the rules perfect?  No.  Would I change some things?  Yes.  But overall TOR is the game that made me realize why I always hated GURPS, MERP, and countless other games that thought rules could/should be setting agnostic.


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## Kovar Valechnik

“And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge." Galadriel, Fellowship of the ring.

Franchises are difficult to manage, and C7 have proved adroit in their dealings with others. It is a real pity...something makes me wonder why C7 pulled out with ToR2 so close to release and the Amazon series on the horizon. 

We may never know, since non-disclosure agreements are regularly used with intellectual property rights.


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## Arilyn

Elfcrusher said:


> God I hope the next stage of this is NOT the license going to a company that loves to apply their universal, be-all-end-all system to every genre.
> 
> What made TOR a thing of beauty is that the rules were written from the ground up to fit a specific setting, and it worked amazingly.  Were the rules perfect?  No.  Would I change some things?  Yes.  But overall TOR is the game that made me realize why I always hated GURPS, MERP, and countless other games that thought rules could/should be setting agnostic.



Yes. Everything in the game from the rules to the art and the writing embraced a Tolkien feel. The game has class.


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## doctorbadwolf

Elfcrusher said:


> God I hope the next stage of this is NOT the license going to a company that loves to apply their universal, be-all-end-all system to every genre.
> 
> What made TOR a thing of beauty is that the rules were written from the ground up to fit a specific setting, and it worked amazingly.  Were the rules perfect?  No.  Would I change some things?  Yes.  But overall TOR is the game that made me realize why I always hated GURPS, MERP, and countless other games that thought rules could/should be setting agnostic.



I mean I love GURPS but yes TOR is also excellent.


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## Laurefindel

TwiceBorn2 said:


> Makes me wonder... might Sophisticated sub-license to either Modiphius... *or to FFG (who might view it as a lucrative opportunity to adapt the LotR RPG to their Genesys/narrative dice system,* given the impending release of the Amazon TV series)??? FFG does generally have a bigger presence/share in the overall gaming market than either C7 or Modiphius.
> 
> Just thinking aloud...



Emphasis mine

Ironically (well, not really since its all speculation), I went the other way around for my RPG version of Twilight Imperium  (FFG’s flagship game) and used Cubicle 7 TOR’s rule system as game engine.


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## Skywalker

Morrus said:


> Sophisticated (a board game company, which produces LotR board games) has the overall license, and was sublicensing to Cubicle 7.




Its more complex than that. Doesn't the design team on TOR work for Sophisticated Games? Perhaps SG does more than just licence the IP and may even retain much of the IP in TOR and AiME, much like GW does with WFRP.


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## rpgresearch

W'll be discussing this at length on this Friday's GenConTV TableTakes stream 11 am PST Nov 29th. Would be great if folks joined the chatroom to comment and ask questions. Twitch


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## innerdude

I've criticized Cubicle7 in the past for its handling of The One Ring product line. From my perspective, it was obvious from the beginning that they'd been both overly ambitious and overly optimistic in their ability to meet the full demands of the product line.

I don't think they released a single supplement for TOR that wasn't at least 6 months behind schedule, and in many cases 12 or even 18 months behind schedule (see: The One Ring Adventurer's Guide). 

Not only that, they purposefully excluded major components of the setting from the original core game ---Rohan, Gondor, and the Noldor---which is functionally equivalent to releasing a Forgotten Realms campaign setting that excludes the Sword Coast, the Underdark, and Waterdeep.

Admittedly the material they did release was top-notch, but I quickly lost patience with the whole endeavor---especially when I had the excellent Lord of the Rings Living Card Game from Fantasy Flight competing for my consumer dollars. 

And that's really what it comes down to --- consumer dollars. It's pretty obvious that the product line simply wasn't profitable enough for C7. If it was profitable enough, then C7 would do everything within its purview to renew/continue the license.

If it wasn't about sheer profitability, the only other reason I can imagine them dropping the license was if the terms of control over the IP going forward were too onerous---much like Paizo determined in 2008 that the licensing terms of the 4e GPL were far too confining.


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## aramis erak

Eric V said:


> Did your opinion change when reading AiME?



I loved TOR, and found the original layout functional, and much better in the revised hardcover, but I found AIME PM to be the worst edit and rules jobs I've ever seen from C7. Including games I've skimmed but won't buy.


doctorbadwolf said:


> I mean I love GURPS but yes TOR is also excellent.



I wouldn't worry about SJG. GURPS is already on life-support (It runs just ahead of break-even, based upon comments from SJG staffers.) SJG makes their money on Munchkin and boardgames.

I figure the most likely scenario for the next Tolkien RPG is going to be Amazon _hiring_ WotC or FFG, and creating their own imprint.

Unless Christopher Tolkien, having decided his work is done, sails west with the Elves. Or, gets smart, and invokes the copyright recovery act, claiming SZC/MEE is devaluing his and his father's works...


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## Celebrim

I'm a massive Tolkien fan, and have heard good things about both of these systems.  Of the two, which would you recommend me picking up, "The One Ring" or "Adventures in Middle Earth"?


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## Morrus

Celebrim said:


> I'm a massive Tolkien fan, and have heard good things about both of these systems.  Of the two, which would you recommend me picking up, "The One Ring" or "Adventures in Middle Earth"?



TOR, without a doubt. It's designed from the ground up to do Tolkien.


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## darjr

Celebrim said:


> I'm a massive Tolkien fan, and have heard good things about both of these systems.  Of the two, which would you recommend me picking up, "The One Ring" or "Adventures in Middle Earth"?



Both really, or either one. TOR is more different than many RPGs but yet very traditional in its roles and kind of play, imho. Adventures is more like 5e but subtly subverted to support Tolkien like play.

There is more content for TOR at the moment and the big core book is BEAUTIFUL.

_But really TOR content can be used with some work in Adventures


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## GreyLord

Morrus said:


> Why? That would be weird.
> 
> Why is the narrative suddenly “which company could screw over Cubicle 7, and by the way we don’t care about the One Ring system they carefully developed”?
> 
> All these people know each other.




FFG and Star Wars?

I think FFG COULD be a factor (no idea if big or small) as they have made in roads to a LotR type RPG already with a Roleplaying Boardgame.  As they are already familiar with the properties it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine that they could be being catered to in regards to an RPG.

On the otherhand, they've had LotR games for a long time thus far and haven't really come out with a straight up RPG for it.  It would probably also compete with their Terrinoth properties a little if they did so.

They are tearing it up with their most recent Middle-Earth boardgame though.


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## kinwolf

From their facebook account:







> Sophisticated Games commissioned The One Ring RPG from Francesco Nepitello back in 2008. The game that he - with Marco Maggi -  created, exceeded our best expectations and has gone on to become one of the best - and successful - Role Playing Games of all time. Francesco and Sophisticated Games have had many other collaborations since then.
> We were saddened - and indeed surprised- to learn this week from Cubicle 7, our long term distributor and publishing partner, that they had decided against publishing the 2nd edition of TOR. This came in the middle of some discussions on the dynamics of how Francesco, Sophisticated Games and Cubicle 7 should work together in the future. But at no stage had there been any suggestion that TOR2 would not be published.
> Fans of the game should be assured that Sophisticated Games, in conjunction with Francesco and Marco, will do their best to rectify the current uncertainties.


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## CapnZapp

Elfcrusher said:


> ... why I always hated GURPS, MERP, and countless other games that thought rules could/should be setting agnostic.



Yes, "generic" is an abomination!


----------



## Parmandur

kinwolf said:


> From their facebook account:
> 
> View attachment 116456




The plot thickens...


----------



## TheSword

I thoroughly enjoyed playing the Mirkwood campaign of AIME and found it a really refreshing low/no magic version of 5e that ticked a lot of boxes.

That gave me a huge amount of confidence when C7 picked up the WFRP license and I haven’t been disappointed yet.

My hope is that designers and resources can be retained and redeployed and hopefully people won’t lose too much work. I don’t think it’s a massive publishing house (which is these days) so the thought of my favourite setting getting more attention is a silver lining in this otherwise sad news.

I really don’t understand the criticism for C7 for taking 6 months longer to release a book. These products will be around for decades (now that eBay, POD and digital download are in play). 6 months to get a book right is nothing in the grand scheme of things. As much as I would like the full Enemy Within Campaign before Christmas, I’d much prefer to wait until Christmas 2021 and get a quality product.

Incidentally the Enemy in Shadows companion was released on pdf this week and I must say it’s a cracking addition that blows out of the water the suggestions that this campaign is just a reprint. Really good stuff!


----------



## Cergorach

Morrus said:


> Oh, god, no it's not. If it was, they'd all be selling drugs, not RPGs. Businesses have plenty of priorities beyond profit.



I would to argue the opposite, for (most) of us, it is a drug! I know there's a lot of booksniffers out there... ;-)

As a side note: When I read between the lines of the announcement, it sounds as if there was a contract renewal coming up next year and the sub-licensor wanted or changed the new contract in such a way that either raised the prices or constrained what C7 could do with the license. This is not new in the industry, this has happened before, it will happen again. A NDA would make it impossible for C7 to expand beyond the current statement on the subject, so all we have is speculation (and possibly leaks)...

C7 is license shop by the looks of it and they have 5 other game lines to pursue.


----------



## BrockBallingdark

Celebrim said:


> I'm a massive Tolkien fan, and have heard good things about both of these systems.  Of the two, which would you recommend me picking up, "The One Ring" or "Adventures in Middle Earth"?




The One Ring, hands down. I like 5e but not with my One Ring.


----------



## innerdude

kinwolf said:


> Sophisticated Games commissioned The One Ring RPG from Francesco Nepitello back in 2008. The game that he - with Marco Maggi -  created, exceeded our best expectations and has gone on to become one of the best - and successful - Role Playing Games of all time. Francesco and Sophisticated Games have had many other collaborations since then.
> 
> We were saddened - and indeed surprised- to learn this week from Cubicle 7, our long term distributor and publishing partner, that they had decided against publishing the 2nd edition of TOR. This came in the middle of some discussions on the dynamics of how Francesco, Sophisticated Games and Cubicle 7 should work together in the future. But at no stage had there been any suggestion that TOR2 would not be published.
> 
> Fans of the game should be assured that Sophisticated Games, in conjunction with Francesco and Marco, will do their best to rectify the current uncertainties.




Looking at this, my speculation is that the situation is similar to what happened to the _Nosgoth_ video game a few years back. 

Game development company Psyonix had been granted a license by Sony Interactive to create a game based on the _Legacy of Kain_ intellectual property. Rather than sticking with the tried-and-true action RPG formula of the prior Kain games, Psyonix instead created _Nosgoth_, which was an online-only, PvP 3rd-person shooter of vampires versus humans. 

Having never played a single minute of any of the Kain games, I didn't have any connection to the IP other than what I saw in _Nosgoth_. I personally loved the game, but it was roundly criticized by the gaming community at large for straying away from what they wanted from the Legacy of Kain license (a game like the others in the series). It never really caught on and was never profitable. 

Just as significant however, was that Psyonix had just released a game of their own creation, a little game you might know as _Rocket League_. And it became obvious within weeks of _Rocket League_'s release that Psyonix was going to be infinitely more profitable putting their resources into it rather than _Nosgoth, _which had essentially become a millstone around their neck. They weren't making money on it, but to even keep the game up and running they had to keep the matchmaking servers up and running and continue patching it.

So what did Psyonix do? They fufilled the terms of their development contract to the letter, publicly announced they were letting their LoK license lapse, and weeks later shut _Nosgoth _down entirely. 

Based on the reports of corporate restructuring going on at Cubicle7, it feels like something similar is going on. Releasing TOR v2 would continue to take significant investment in company resources. If there were suddenly any snags at all in talks related to the ongoing use of the ME license, it's not hard to see how Cubicle7 leadership might be inclined to say "Eh, not worth it. Drop it and move on," especially when they seem to be having significant success with the Warhammer Fantasy license.

For whatever reason, Cubicle7 decided that the terms of the ME license no longer created enough value for their company.

Though the wording of the quote from Sophisticated Games does call into question whether both parties were negotiating in good faith. If either side had/has an ulterior motive to not extend the licensing agreement, it would be simple enough for either party to add provisions to the contract negotiation that they know would be untenable to the other side. At that point it's easy for both sides to throw their hands in the air and tell their corporate shareholders, "Eh, we tried, but the other side just didn't want to play ball. Waddya gonna do?" It's an effective face-saving move if you're actively trying to get out of your side of the equation.

None of us will ever know the circumstances of the contract negotiation, so it's all supposition and inference on our part, but the wording of the quote is interesting in this context.


----------



## Alzrius

Matrix Sorcica said:


> According to this post on rpg.net, there's still some (small) hope for the line.




This intrigued me, so I wrote to Sophisticated Games myself, saying how regrettable it was that TOR and AiME were being shut down, and that I hoped they'd find a way to keep them going. Notwithstanding the greeting and sign off, here's the response that I received:



> Do not worry, the line will continue!




I'm not sure which line they meant, TOR or AiME (possibly the latter, since I mentioned that I enjoyed that one more), but this is still hopeful.


----------



## Haffrung

Hurin88 said:


> Can you be a bit more specific about what you think failed? I just ask because I never got to play ToR 1e, and was wondering if it was worth trying.




It's a much more complex system than it seems at first blush. And while the mechanics read well, and are all very evocative of Middle Earth and the source material, they do not mesh together well. The various sub-systems seem tacked together. And as a rules reference, the books were awful. Something simple like travelling through a forest and then resting involved references 4 or 5 sections of the rules scattered over two books. 

By the fourth session we were still spending almost as much time looking things up as we were playing, so we shut down the campaign. 

These faults - cobbled together sub-systems explained poorly in a badly organized rules book - are hardly confined to Cubicle 7. But they're often overlooked so long as the production values look impressive enough.


----------



## Hurin88

Haffrung said:


> It's a much more complex system than it seems at first blush. And while the mechanics read well, and are all very evocative of Middle Earth and the source material, they do not mesh together well. The various sub-systems seem tacked together. And as a rules reference, the books were awful. Something simple like travelling through a forest and then resting involved references 4 or 5 sections of the rules scattered over two books.
> 
> By the fourth session we were still spending almost as much time looking things up as we were playing, so we shut down the campaign.
> 
> These faults - cobbled together sub-systems explained poorly in a badly organized rules book - are hardly confined to Cubicle 7. But they're often overlooked so long as the production values look impressive enough.




Thank you very much for that clear explanation. That helps me a great deal!


----------



## darjr

The new core book is a much better reference. I dint agree with most of the above post but the original boxed set was not a good reference.


----------



## aramis erak

darjr said:


> The new core book is a much better reference. I dint agree with most of the above post but the original boxed set was not a good reference.



The only issue I've had with TOR1.0 was, as you, the splitting things between the two books.
I don't feel the systems tacked together; they provide a cohesive system for me, especially once the song and treasure rules were added (Rivendel).

And TOR 1.1 solved the reference issue, as you imply.

Not everyone grasps the interactions, but the travel montage system is an intentional and powerful old-school resource drain... but the resources being hope and health, and to a lesser degree, sanity.

Is it perfect? No- if it were, I wouldn't have added 3 additional combat maneuvers, and added the expansion materials.
Does it do Tolkien well as written? Oh, hell yes!


----------



## JPL

Didn't have enough modrons, did it?


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Hurin88 said:


> Thank you very much for that clear explanation. That helps me a great deal!



I’d read some reviews from people who like the game before taking that too much to heart. 

I couldn’t disagree more strongly about subsystems or the journey rules, for instance.


----------



## Reynard

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’d read some reviews from people who like the game before taking that too much to heart.
> 
> I couldn’t disagree more strongly about subsystems or the journey rules, for instance.



The Journey rules are so good I have adapted them to pretty much any RPG that involved going from here to there. They're brilliant.


----------



## darjr

JPL said:


> Didn't have enough modrons, did it?



To be fair, nothing has enough modrons in it.


----------



## Hurin88

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’d read some reviews from people who like the game before taking that too much to heart.
> 
> I couldn’t disagree more strongly about subsystems or the journey rules, for instance.




Ok, thanks for the perspective. Can you summarize how the journey rules work? What makes them good or unique?


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Hurin88 said:


> Ok, thanks for the perspective. Can you summarize how the journey rules work? What makes them good or unique?



The main thing is, they make the journey part of the challenge without requiring the party to play out the entire journey. 

There are rolls you make before and during the journey, which determine if you must face a hazard, if the journey goes smoothly, and what comes of those hazards you do face. Resources may be expended in the process, and a full rest is only possible in actual safety, so those resources aren’t fully restored by a night of sleep in a camp.


----------



## CapnZapp

doctorbadwolf said:


> Resources may be expended in the process, and a full rest is only possible in actual safety, so those resources aren’t fully restored by a night of sleep in a camp.



This. Makes me sad when I think of D&D's inepts system where you keep having adventures where you face a single monster during a day of travel.

And how pointless that is from a game perspective. A game built on resource management that gives you back all resources after a single resource... _sigh_

I wonder how many more decades we have to endure before D&D finally takes the consequences of its own setup, and introduces proper resource management rules.

That is, rules where the number of short and long rests are controlled by the adventure. (An intense dungeon romp might require ten minute short rests and hour-long long rests; a desert voyage might use a week's short rest and disallow long rests altogether except for the one Oasis)


----------



## Reynard

There are 2 kinds of resources in D&D (and there always has been) tactical and strategic. 5E does a very good job of making tactical resource management matter*. It isn't so good on the strategic resource management front, between long rests being too good and money being essentially useless.

*Except, as @CapnZapp says, during travel -- which is why the Journey rules are so useful. Players have to make choices and engage in the subsystem, and that determines what their resource state is upon arrival at the adventure location.


----------



## CapnZapp

Reynard said:


> There are 2 kinds of resources in D&D (and there always has been) tactical and strategic. 5E does a very good job of making tactical resource management matter*. It isn't so good on the strategic resource management front, between long rests being too good and money being essentially useless.
> 
> *Except, as @CapnZapp says, during travel -- which is why the Journey rules are so useful. Players have to make choices and engage in the subsystem, and that determines what their resource state is upon arrival at the adventure location.



"which is why the Journey rules would be so useful had they been included in the DMG" you mean


----------



## Reynard

CapnZapp said:


> "which is why the Journey rules would be so useful had they been included in the DMG" you mean



Sadly the Journey rules are not Open Content, so WotC would have to come up with an alternate, probably inferior, system.

I personally think D&D should abandon the strategic resource management mini-game altogether and focus the exploration pillar on discovery rather that drain, but that's probably a discussion for a different thread.


----------



## Hurin88

doctorbadwolf said:


> The main thing is, they make the journey part of the challenge without requiring the party to play out the entire journey.
> 
> There are rolls you make before and during the journey, which determine if you must face a hazard, if the journey goes smoothly, and what comes of those hazards you do face. Resources may be expended in the process, and a full rest is only possible in actual safety, so those resources aren’t fully restored by a night of sleep in a camp.




Thanks, that helps a lot. That sounds pretty cool. You've convinced me to take a look at TOR now!


----------



## BookBarbarian

Reynard said:


> Sadly the Journey rules are not Open Content, so WotC would have to come up with an alternate, probably inferior, system.



Like this? https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA_IntoTheWild.pdf


----------



## CapnZapp

Reynard said:


> I personally think D&D should abandon the strategic resource management mini-game altogether and focus the exploration pillar on discovery rather that drain, but that's probably a discussion for a different thread.



Thing is, the dichotomy between always-on classes (such as a fighter being able to wave his sword every round all day long) and burst-classes (such as a Wizard being reduced to a feeble dagger when the spells run out) makes for an interesting game.

After all, D&D is not 100% role-play - it is part pretend, play-a-character but it also part game.

If every class worked - and drained - the same, then such a shift would be trivial. But the game would be poorer for it.

As it is, however, you would have to redesign the game to accommodate it.

That said, 5E comes the closest to functioning even without a blaster and a healer, so it's not impossible. The crude solution would work already today - just have every player play the same sort of character. Either an all short-rest party (fighters, rogues, warlocks etc) or an all long-rest party (bards, wizards, clerics etc)

WotC could also offer two versions of each class for 6E: one short-rest Fighter and one long-rest Warrior, say. One short-rest Mage, say, and the long-rest Wizard. And so on.


----------



## Reynard

BookBarbarian said:


> Like this? https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA_IntoTheWild.pdf



That subsystem is okay, I guess, but doesn't actually solve any of the issues with overland travel in D&D.


----------



## BookBarbarian

Reynard said:


> That subsystem is okay, I guess, but doesn't actually solve any of the issues with overland travel in D&D.



Yup that was my point. That it was, like you said, inferior.


----------



## aramis erak

Hurin88 said:


> Ok, thanks for the perspective. Can you summarize how the journey rules work? What makes them good or unique?




Step 1: plot the course
Step 2: break it into legs based upon difficulty
Step 3: pick roles for the leg 
Step 4: Travel skill rolls to avoid fatigue. Any sauron's (11's) become events. 
Step 5: Determine the events. The GM, if they have a specific one in mind, can use it in place of random determination. Note that random process usually triggers a roll for one role to avoid a penalty to the group.
Step 6: resolve the events, in sequence determined by GM (often the order rolled), one at a time. If they are encounters, use the appropriate social or combat elements.
Step 7: go back to 3.

This all ties into the resource management elements of TOR - Fatigue, Hope/Shadow, and Wounds.
It also allows relatively fast resolution of travel issues, while still interacting with the environment mechanically.

Note that D&D 5E has a weaker version in the DMG... but the same principles.  And AIME mangles that a bit...

It's not the "2 rolls per day" of D&D, nor the "one and done" of Burning Wheel, but in-between.

As long as one narrates the fatigue gains, and the specific rolls, it's brilliant. If you have a lazy GM, it's going to be a simple mechanical slog... but so will many other parts of the game.


----------



## Reynard

aramis erak said:


> Step 1: plot the course
> Step 2: break it into legs based upon difficulty
> Step 3: pick roles for the leg
> Step 4: Travel skill rolls to avoid fatigue. Any sauron's (11's) become events.
> Step 5: Determine the events. The GM, if they have a specific one in mind, can use it in place of random determination. Note that random process usually triggers a roll for one role to avoid a penalty to the group.
> Step 6: resolve the events, in sequence determined by GM (often the order rolled), one at a time. If they are encounters, use the appropriate social or combat elements.
> Step 7: go back to 3.
> 
> This all ties into the resource management elements of TOR - Fatigue, Hope/Shadow, and Wounds.
> It also allows relatively fast resolution of travel issues, while still interacting with the environment mechanically.
> 
> Note that D&D 5E has a weaker version in the DMG... but the same principles. And AIME mangles that a bit...
> 
> It's not the "2 rolls per day" of D&D, nor the "one and done" of Burning Wheel, but in-between.
> 
> As long as one narrates the fatigue gains, and the specific rolls, it's brilliant. If you have a lazy GM, it's going to be a simple mechanical slog... but so will many other parts of the game.



Also, just to expand a little bit, each Journey should ideally have a custom set of potential events for the specific adventure or location at hand. So you are still creating a "random encounter table" but doing so from the perspective of what supports the particulars of the adventure rather than just a resource drain.

Also note that good rolls result in events that are informative, helpful or otherwise beneficial to the party. D&D has a problem with only failures mattering in relation to skill checks, and this helps balance that a bit.


----------



## Mistwell

So have we figured out what happened here yet?

From reading between the lines: 1) The license was not up for renewal, 2) there is no known increase in price for the license, 3) there were creative differences of some sort. 

Sophisticated Games had this to say:

"Sophisticated Games commissioned The One Ring RPG from Francesco Nepitello back in 2008. The game that he - with Marco Maggi - created, exceeded our best expectations and has gone on to become one of the best - and successful - Role Playing Games of all time. Francesco and Sophisticated Games have had many other collaborations since then.

We were saddened - and indeed surprised- to learn this week from Cubicle 7, our long term distributor and publishing partner, that they had decided against publishing the 2nd edition of TOR. This came in the middle of some *discussions on the dynamics of how* Francesco, Sophisticated Games and Cubicle 7 *should work together in the future*. But at no stage had there been any suggestion that TOR2 would not be published.

Fans of the game should be assured that Sophisticated Games, in conjunction with Francesco and Marco, will do their best to rectify the current uncertainties." 

So, it sounds like "we have a process dispute on oversight" but again that's me reading between the lines. 

Anyone have anything on this?


----------



## Paragon Lost

Mistwell said:


> So have we figured out what happened here yet?
> 
> From reading between the lines: 1) The license was not up for renewal, 2) there is no known increase in price for the license, 3) there were creative differences of some sort.
> 
> Sophisticated Games had this to say:
> 
> "Sophisticated Games commissioned The One Ring RPG from Francesco Nepitello back in 2008. The game that he - with Marco Maggi - created, exceeded our best expectations and has gone on to become one of the best - and successful - Role Playing Games of all time. Francesco and Sophisticated Games have had many other collaborations since then.
> 
> We were saddened - and indeed surprised- to learn this week from Cubicle 7, our long term distributor and publishing partner, that they had decided against publishing the 2nd edition of TOR. This came in the middle of some *discussions on the dynamics of how* Francesco, Sophisticated Games and Cubicle 7 *should work together in the future*. But at no stage had there been any suggestion that TOR2 would not be published.
> 
> Fans of the game should be assured that Sophisticated Games, in conjunction with Francesco and Marco, will do their best to rectify the current uncertainties."
> 
> So, it sounds like "we have a process dispute on oversight" but again that's me reading between the lines.
> 
> Anyone have anything on this?




 I tend to wonder if it didn't have something to do with Cubicle Seven taking on Warhammer Fantasy.


----------



## macd21

Mistwell said:


> So have we figured out what happened here yet?
> 
> From reading between the lines: 1) The license was not up for renewal, 2) there is no known increase in price for the license, 3) there were creative differences of some sort.
> 
> Sophisticated Games had this to say:
> 
> "Sophisticated Games commissioned The One Ring RPG from Francesco Nepitello back in 2008. The game that he - with Marco Maggi - created, exceeded our best expectations and has gone on to become one of the best - and successful - Role Playing Games of all time. Francesco and Sophisticated Games have had many other collaborations since then.
> 
> We were saddened - and indeed surprised- to learn this week from Cubicle 7, our long term distributor and publishing partner, that they had decided against publishing the 2nd edition of TOR. This came in the middle of some *discussions on the dynamics of how* Francesco, Sophisticated Games and Cubicle 7 *should work together in the future*. But at no stage had there been any suggestion that TOR2 would not be published.
> 
> Fans of the game should be assured that Sophisticated Games, in conjunction with Francesco and Marco, will do their best to rectify the current uncertainties."
> 
> So, it sounds like "we have a process dispute on oversight" but again that's me reading between the lines.
> 
> Anyone have anything on this?




I wonder if it had something to do with the approvals process - that C7 wanted either less oversight, or a faster turnaround. I get the impression the 2nd edition should have been out by now, in time for the Christmas market. If that delay was due to them waiting on an approval, they’d be pretty irate, especially if it’s a common occurrence.


----------



## ShadowAssassin

All TOR material had to go for approval to Me-E and was therefore subject to a certain amount  of delay. As the AiME material was little more than a slight reworking of the TOR material I presume that approval was quicker for that.


----------



## jayoungr

Celebrim said:


> I'm a massive Tolkien fan, and have heard good things about both of these systems.  Of the two, which would you recommend me picking up, "The One Ring" or "Adventures in Middle Earth"?



I'm also a Tolkien fan and have played both systems.  I'd say go with TOR if you want to play regularly.  However, AiME will do fine for an occasional game, especially if you have players who are already familiar with D&D 5E.


----------



## CapnZapp

TOR is a proper Tolkien game.

AiME is just lightly skinned Dungeons & Dragons, with fireballs and levels.

Nuff said


----------



## LuisCarlos17f

Why not to write an etsarz or spiritual successor? Maybe this is the best option because Middle-Earth is a master work, but "one-shot" to be used for TTRPG.


----------



## CapnZapp

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Why not to write an etsarz or spiritual successor? Maybe this is the best option because Middle-Earth is a master work, but "one-shot" to be used for TTRPG.



Are you assuming The One Ring is dead? Because if you are, don't.  Sophisticated clearly stated they will work to (try to) save 2nd Edition.


----------



## Reynard

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Why not to write an etsarz or spiritual successor? Maybe this is the best option because Middle-Earth is a master work, but "one-shot" to be used for TTRPG.



That's a pretty bold assertion to level at a setting that has seen at least 3 decades of RPG support. The Lord of the Rings isn't even the only or most important story in the literary canon.


----------



## aramis erak

There is a role for a tolkienian fantasy engine on a world not constrained to the professor's views... 

in essence, that was Gygax's major contribution to D&D.... at least if one ignores or detests the "gygaxian spew" writing/editing style.... and that the tolkeinian influence is probably one fo the more important elements in D&D's initial, and continuing, success.

By the same token, MERP (ICE) was a very nice game, with wonderful setting work, but they didn't mate well together, IMO, and a good number agree that it wasn't a good system for Middle Earth.

But some of us like the mechanics more than we do the Professor's world itself...


----------



## zedturtle

CapnZapp said:


> TOR is a proper Tolkien game.
> 
> AiME is just lightly skinned Dungeons & Dragons, with fireballs and levels.
> 
> Nuff said




That's dreadfully inaccurate, and I know you know better.

_Adventures in Middle-earth_ has custom Cultures (because a Man of Bree and a Man of Minas Tirith are very different) and custom Classes designed from the ground-up to play in Middle-earth. There are no casters by default, and while there is a list of spells in the Loremaster's Guide that you might fit into the setting, _fireball_ ain't one of them.

Sure, we did build on the core of 5e for familiarity's sake, and that does mean that a 3rd level hero fits more comfortably into a lot of Middle-earth adventure ideas than a 17th level one but there are always options. Plus, with additional rules like Shadow corruption and expanded use of Exhaustion, Hit Dice and Inspiration there are plenty of ways to make the game feel different than standard 5e.


----------



## CapnZapp

With respect, I have never felt levels be appropriate for a Middle-Earth feeling at all. 

That went for ICE's LOTR game, it goes for AIME.

Basically, I am convinced D&D is intrinsically and fundamentally incompatible with any down-to-earth narrative. And despite Peter Jackson's heinous efforts (stairs-skating elves, rabbit-sleighing Wizards, barrel-rafting dwarves...   ), Tolkien's trilogy - which I love dearly - remains down-to-earth for me.

*Tl;dr: Do. Not. Use. D&D. For. Tolkien.*

Sorry for being blunt, Zed. I tried to gloss it over, but you did call me out on it. 

To end on a positive note, I heartily recommend y'all to try The One Ring.  Just don't listen to anyone trying to pretend you can have a proper Tolkien experience using D&D. Sure you can play Rangers bashing goblin heads, but that's not what Lord of the Rings is about, for me.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Yeah, no. 

Don’t listen to one guy’s hang ups about dnd, folks. AIME works just fine for adventuring in middle earth. 

TOR is also excellent, but the idea that levels don’t work for Tolkien/down to earth narratives is literally just a preference pretending toward something more.


----------



## CubicsRube

I have to second that I love AiME, and what was done with the 5e chassis was very inventive and a gold standard of 5e adaptations as far as I'm concerned.

With shadow rules, journey and exploration phases, and the simple fact of limiting long rests to sanctuaries, I feel they've done a great job of bringing the feel into the system.


----------



## aramis erak

@CubicsRube , @doctorbadwolf 
AIME's value is highly debatable... for some, it's great, for others, it's proof that C7 lost it's talent...

I find that the layout of AIME Player's was poor enough as to make it not readily useable. Like many others, I find the idea of Class & Level pretty mediocre and a poor fit to tolkien's world, and the only advantage to a 5E base is the ease of converting players of 5E, but AIME wasn't written well enough to get that happening.
And a few test tries of the journey system resulted in my reaction being "not as good as stock 5E, nor as good as TOR"...

I'll say that people have used D&D for Tolkien since 1973... doesn't mean it's a generally good fit, and in the case of AIME, it's not  an improvement over stock 5E from what I've read (which is just the AIME player's book). Hell, there's an article in an early Dragon issue pointing out that Gandalf was only exhibiting 5th level abilities.

I've tried using D&D for Middle earth, under AD&D 1E, didn't feel right, even when I had no experience with any other RPGs besides D&D... I've tried under MERP, actually felt less like Tolkien than did D&D.  I never got past char gen for Decipher's LOTR. I will say that, when I finally tried to read the Shanara series, it felt like a MERP campaign... (and yes, I know it predates MERP.)

I have found one that, while it doesn't quite feel Tolkien, is close enough to enjoy as a tolkienian knockoff... The Fantasy Trip 1E. And while not quite right, it's much closer than D&D of any edition.

I've only found one ruleset that felt really like tolkien to me... TOR. Part of that is that the rules _enforce_ the genre in play, part of it is that the character generation highlights the types of characters, but allows a wide spectrum, much as Tolkien's characters are a spectrum, not neat and tidy types. (Especially in The Hobbit). A huge part is the journey system and combat system.

Another part of that is that we really see growth of skill only in a few characters - Merry, Pip, Sam. Bilbo might have, but it's unclear if he really learned the blade while out and about, or had skill with it prior that wasn't mentioned... TFT 1E advances rather slowly, and TOR advances smoothly but in diminishing returns for increasing costs. (most tasks succeed with level 3 skills.... levels 4+ are just to push for more 6's.)

So, while I'm likely to get the new edition, I'm really not happy they are changing core mechanics. But I'm also absolutely convinced that fans of AIME do not share my values in what makes a good game _for Tolkien's world,_ and not for what makes for good editing, either. But I'm not telling people to ignore the fanboys. And it's not fair to dismiss one or two people's negative opinions of it, either. People should see/hear both ends of the spectrum. If someone wants to buy a lightly read AIME player's book...


----------



## vilainn6

zedturtle said:


> That's dreadfully inaccurate, and I know you know better.
> 
> _Adventures in Middle-earth_ has custom Cultures (because a Man of Bree and a Man of Minas Tirith are very different) and custom Classes designed from the ground-up to play in Middle-earth. There are no casters by default, and while there is a list of spells in the Loremaster's Guide that you might fit into the setting, _fireball_ ain't one of them.
> 
> Sure, we did build on the core of 5e for familiarity's sake, and that does mean that a 3rd level hero fits more comfortably into a lot of Middle-earth adventure ideas than a 17th level one but there are always options. Plus, with additional rules like Shadow corruption and expanded use of Exhaustion, Hit Dice and Inspiration there are plenty of ways to make the game feel different than standard 5e.




Sorry Zed but the day you decided to put your name on those pages and accept Cubicle 7 money, you loose the right to say anything.  You are just now a spokeman trying to convince us your employer didn't sell their soul just for more money.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

vilainn6 said:


> Sorry Zed but the day you decided to put your name on those pages and accept Cubicle 7 money, you loose the right to say anything.  You are just now a spokeman trying to convince us your employer didn't sell their soul just for more money.





Yeah, man, he’s just like, shilling for the _man,_ man!


----------



## KentDT

vilainn6 said:


> Sorry Zed but the day you decided to put your name on those pages and accept Cubicle 7 money, you loose the right to say anything.  You are just now a spokeman trying to convince us your employer didn't sell their soul just for more money.



OK, that's pretty . . . harsh.
I own all the TOR books and all the AiME books and enjoy both. For me the level question doesn't bother me or take me out of Tolkien's world. I think AiME works great as an example of how the 5e rules can be stretched to evoke a different feel and would work well as a basis for any other essentially magic-less (well, spell-less) D&D.
The original comment calling out AiME as "just lightly skinned Dungeons & Dragons, with fireballs . . ." was spot on. There are no fireballs (or any other spells) in standard AiME, and even the one page list of appropriate spells in the Loremaster guide for those who really want D&D style spells in their version of Middle-Earth explicitly does NOT include fireball. So, it was very misleading to the point of being antagonistic.
Now, I don't work for Cubicle 7, so do I have a right to my opinion?


----------



## macd21

Yeah, the whole ‘AiME isn’t LotR appropriate’ is just standard edition warring and one-true-wayism. Plenty of people have played it, enjoyed it thoroughly, and found it perfect for LotR - including people who’ve played TOR. Just because it’s not your cup of tea doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it.


----------



## BookBarbarian

I freely admit that I bought AiME because I could easily transition my 5e players without them having to learn a new system.

But I was absolutely still able to play a game were miles were miles and Journeys took a toll on the characters, where cultural prejudices could be overcome to forge alliances against the shadow, were living in a world were you are fighting a losing battle against the shadow takes a toll on your soul, and were choosing to take the easy path takes an even greater one.

Also one were you could eventually become as powerful as Boromir slaying 20 foes in a single encounter before dying, or a Legolas or a Gimli taking out 40+ foes over the course of an adventuring day, Or as poweful as Aragorn able to not take a single injury at the battle of the black gate. Or even as powerful as Hurin slaying dozens of trolls (The Foehammer subclass is a real monster). The only problem is how long those encounters would take broken up into 6 second rounds 

Or I could not explore do that, since I can dial it in as necessary for the kind of experience we had to have. We could do AiME E6 and still have have loads of fun.

Is TOR better at a purely Tolkien gaming experience? Probably. But AiME was still good enough for our table to do so too.


----------



## mykesfree

Totally agree with all your points @BookBarbarian.


----------



## pemerton

@aramis erak 

Have you ever used Burning Wheel for Middle Earth RPGing?


----------



## aramis erak

pemerton said:


> @aramis erak
> 
> Have you ever used Burning Wheel for Middle Earth RPGing?



Not as such; I have, however, found a very middle-earth feel when running BW.


----------



## TheSword

AIME is great fun. Very good example of a low magic conversion for d&d. Could easily be adapted for other low magic settings -
Game of Thrones etc.

Ignore the few nay-sayers. See how many upvotes each comment has. It may not prove anything, it’s all just opinion, but it shows how many fans the system has.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

TheSword said:


> AIME is great fun. Very good example of a low magic conversion for d&d. Could easily be adapted for other low magic settings -
> Game of Thrones etc.
> 
> Ignore the few nay-sayers. See how many upvotes each comment has. It may not prove anything, it’s all just opinion, but it shows how many fans the system has.



Yeah it’s a fricken fantastic port of low magic high stakes fantasy to dnd mechanics. 

Most folks who don’t like it are either LoTR hyper-purists, people who can’t fathom having stories that matter in a world set before the war of the ring, or people who decided before opening any book or pdf that the dnd engine literally cannot do non-epic non-gonzo Fantasy.


----------



## vpuigdoller

Apparently Sophisticated Games who are the license holder are still going ahead with the Second Edition regardless of Cubicle 7 dropping out according to the December edition of Devir News a Spanish podcast.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

vpuigdoller said:


> Apparently Sophisticated Games who are the license holder are still going ahead with the Second Edition regardless of Cubicle 7 dropping out according to the December edition of Devir News a Spanish podcast.



That really makes me think that they let C7 do the bulk of the work, and then pushed them out so they could bring in the rewards.


----------



## darjr

doctorbadwolf said:


> That really makes me think that they let C7 do the bulk of the work, and then pushed them out so they could bring in the rewards.



What? On what basis?


----------



## Guest 6801328

doctorbadwolf said:


> That really makes me think that they let C7 do the bulk of the work, and then pushed them out so they could bring in the rewards.




Well that really makes _me_ think that Francesco, C7, and Sophisticated must actually all be fronts for Chinese, Russian, and Swiss intelligence services (not necessarily in that order) and this is all really a proxy for their battle to influence elections in Lichtenstein (I know, you thought it's a principality and doesn't really have elections...but you would be wrong.  This goes much deeper than you might think.) and this is really just retaliation for C7's exposure of Francesco's plot to restore old DeLorean's and use them to smuggle rare earth metals out of China.  Which was, of course, less about patriotism and more simple retaliation for a duel (something involving Hannah Montana) a year earlier.

I mean, if you're going to just make up stories out of thin air that attack the integrity of people you don't know, with zero evidence to back it up, go big or go home.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Elfcrusher said:


> Well that really makes _me_ think that Francesco, C7, and Sophisticated must actually all be fronts for Chinese, Russian, and Swiss intelligence services (not necessarily in that order) and this is all really a proxy for their battle to influence elections in Lichtenstein (I know, you thought it's a principality and doesn't really have elections...but you would be wrong.  This goes much deeper than you might think.) and this is really just retaliation for C7's exposure of Francesco's plot to restore old DeLorean's and use them to smuggle rare earth metals out of China.  Which was, of course, less about patriotism and more simple retaliation for a duel (something involving Hannah Montana) a year earlier.
> 
> I mean, if you're going to just make up stories out of thin air that attack the integrity of people you don't know, with zero evidence to back it up, go big or go home.



I mean, there's nothing particularly out of the norm of human behavior in what I said, but go off I guess.


----------



## darjr

doctorbadwolf said:


> I mean, there's nothing particularly out of the norm of human behavior in what I said, but go off I guess.



People do say vicious unfounded rumors about others quite a lot, that’s true.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

darjr said:


> People do say vicious unfounded rumors about others quite a lot, that’s true.





Don’t care, bud.


----------



## Guest 6801328

doctorbadwolf said:


> I mean, there's nothing particularly out of the norm of human behavior in what I said, but go off I guess.




The same could be said for marriage infidelity, shoplifting, and being a Patriots fan.  But I don't go around accusing people of those things without evidence.


----------



## CapnZapp

doctorbadwolf said:


> I mean, there's nothing particularly out of the norm of human behavior in what I said, but go off I guess.



We know. Fearmongering is nothing new. Doesn't mean we like it.


----------



## darjr

doctorbadwolf said:


> Don’t care, bud.



Oh? Seems like you did.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Elfcrusher said:


> The same could be said for marriage infidelity, shoplifting, and being a Patriots fan.  But I don't go around accusing people of those things without evidence.



Speculating about the behavior and motivations of public figures is pretty normal, bud.


----------



## Guest 6801328

doctorbadwolf said:


> Speculating about the behavior and motivations of public figures is pretty normal, bud.




Yes, it's called "tabloid journalism" and if you want to put yourself on the same ethical and intellectual level as the National Enquirer that's on you.

Bud.


----------



## Crusadius

doctorbadwolf said:


> That really makes me think that they let C7 do the bulk of the work, and then pushed them out so they could bring in the rewards.




RPG publishing is not _that_ profitable. C7 will be paid for the work that its done else any rights of that work (writing, artwork, etc) won't be transferred therefore won't be able to be used in the product that is eventually published. So such speculation is merely implying wrongdoing that is not yet evident and is very unlikely to occur because it burns bridges that you might want to use later on.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Elfcrusher said:


> Yes, it's called "tabloid journalism" and if you want to put yourself on the same ethical and intellectual level as the National Enquirer that's on you.
> 
> Bud.



I’d have to be a journalist for that to make any sense, chief.


----------



## Guest 6801328

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’d have to be a journalist for that to make any sense, chief.




No, that's wrong.  Sorry.


----------



## CapnZapp

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’d have to be a journalist for that to make any sense, chief.



You don't have to be a journalist to admit you made a clumsy mistake spewing unsubstantiated FUD, you just need to be a decent human being. So please be that.


----------



## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> Don’t care, bud.




*Mod Note:*

Please start caring about how dismissive your stance has become - the snark may seem cool to you, but it is fundamentally disrespectful, and that's an issue at this point.

Treat people well, please.


----------



## Reynard

vpuigdoller said:


> Apparently Sophisticated Games who are the license holder are still going ahead with the Second Edition regardless of Cubicle 7 dropping out according to the December edition of Devir News a Spanish podcast.




Is there an English transcript somewhere?


----------



## vpuigdoller

Reynard said:


> Is there an English transcript somewhere?



No that I know off but will keep my eyes open just in case.


----------



## aramis erak

Reynard said:


> Is there an English transcript somewhere?



One of several threads on RPGGeek, an SG staffer says their will be a 2E, it's just the time frame. Francisco also strongly implies the same; the rights revert to him. And not just TOR/LOTR RPG - Hobbit tales, as well. 

Jon Hodgeson has implied that he may be involved, as well, same thread. Note - he did this by mentioning in thread that he's under an NDA for a new project...


----------



## CapnZapp

aramis erak said:


> Francisco also strongly implies the same; the rights revert to him. And not just TOR/LOTR RPG - Hobbit tales, as well.



You can be sure the only rights are securely in the possession of Tolkien Estates.

(Having rights to a specific implementation of a MERP role-playing game means zilch if you aren't allowed to publish anything Middle-Earth. So I'm not exactly countering your claim, just making sure we're not losing sight of the greater picture)


----------



## aramis erak

CapnZapp said:


> You can be sure the only rights are securely in the possession of Tolkien Estates.
> 
> (Having rights to a specific implementation of a MERP role-playing game means zilch if you aren't allowed to publish anything Middle-Earth. So I'm not exactly countering your claim, just making sure we're not losing sight of the greater picture)



SG's license isn't over, and C7 never had the license to begin with, SG did, and partnered with C7 to get Francisco's game published. A lot of the art belongs to Jon Hodgeson, who painted it and licensed it to C7, or in many cases, did as work for hire. And while the products eventually will lose their license from MEE, it's irrelevant to the mechanics, which SG and Francisco have both said remain with Francisco. 
Meaning, when SG loses their license, MEE loses the ability to reprint the game, as does SG, but Francisco can retheme are rerelease, not that I think he would, but I know a bunch of fans would like that.

IP is rife with ugly niggling bits. I only found out about SG having the license when C7 pulled out of the partnership. Several of the reports covered that.


----------



## CapnZapp

aramis erak said:


> SG's license isn't over, and C7 never had the license to begin with, SG did, and partnered with C7 to get Francisco's game published. A lot of the art belongs to Jon Hodgeson, who painted it and licensed it to C7, or in many cases, did as work for hire. And while the products eventually will lose their license from MEE, it's irrelevant to the mechanics, which SG and Francisco have both said remain with Francisco.
> Meaning, when SG loses their license, MEE loses the ability to reprint the game, as does SG, but Francisco can retheme are rerelease, not that I think he would, but I know a bunch of fans would like that.
> 
> IP is rife with ugly niggling bits. I only found out about SG having the license when C7 pulled out of the partnership. Several of the reports covered that.



We apparently are in agreement then 

If Tolkien Estates feels this debacle makes SG unsuited as the games license holder, they can find a better licensee when the current contract lapses. (Not that I think a ttrpg debacle becomes even a blip on their radar, but still)

Mostly just saying the center of this ain't Sophisticated Games, and it ain't Francisco. They all only get to play only as long as Tolkien lets them.


----------



## aramis erak

CapnZapp said:


> We apparently are in agreement then
> 
> If Tolkien Estates feels this debacle makes SG unsuited as the games license holder, they can find a better licensee when the current contract lapses. (Not that I think a ttrpg debacle becomes even a blip on their radar, but still)
> 
> Mostly just saying the center of this ain't Sophisticated Games, and it ain't Francisco. They all only get to play only as long as Tolkien lets them.



Tolkien Estate has literally ZERO to due with it. Middle Earth Enterprises owns the rights to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Nothing else of Tolkien's work. It's a US Based company, formerly the Saul Zaentz Company.

The professor sold the rights half a century ago... a huge mistake on his part... for those two. Everything else belongs to the Estate, but the estate never got the rights back from MEE. I suspect Christopher might be able to get them as he was an uncredited but documented participant in their creation, and the US copyright code allows for termination of a sale of copyright rights... He could, with a savvy lawyer, potentially reunite his father's works to the estate.
See U.S. Copyright Office - Termination of Transfers and Licenses Under 17 U.S.C. 203

Note that Steve Jackson Games just did so with The Fantasy Trip, which he did on contract for Metagaming... and I've a big box of reprint nearby thanks to him doing so.


----------



## Crusadius

CapnZapp said:


> We apparently are in agreement then
> 
> If Tolkien Estates feels this debacle makes SG unsuited as the games license holder, they can find a better licensee when the current contract lapses. (Not that I think a ttrpg debacle becomes even a blip on their radar, but still)
> 
> Mostly just saying the center of this ain't Sophisticated Games, and it ain't Francisco. They all only get to play only as long as Tolkien lets them.




There is no debacle. C7 decided that they could not publish TOR 2E for reasons they have not revealed. SG will therefore look for another publishing partner as they have indicated they want 2E published.

Not sure why any of the owners of the rights would care about a delay with the publishing of a niche product by the license holder due to a commercial agreement between the holder and another party being terminated.


----------



## Umbran

aramis erak said:


> Tolkien Estate has literally ZERO to due with it. Middle Earth Enterprises owns the rights to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Nothing else of Tolkien's work. It's a US Based company, formerly the Saul Zaentz Company.




To quote wikipedia:
"The company {MEE} owns the worldwide exclusive rights to certain elements of J. R. R. Tolkien's two most famous literary works: _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Hobbit_. These elements include the titles of the works, the names of characters contained within as well as the names of places, objects and events within them, and certain short phrases and sayings from the works. 
...
J. R. R. Tolkien, the author of _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_, sold the film, stage and merchandising rights of those works to United Artists in 1968..."

There was some contention (settled out of court) about gambling machines and video games.

Copyright for the original books remains with the Estate.


----------



## Reynard

Crusadius said:


> There is no debacle. C7 decided that they could not publish TOR 2E for reasons they have not revealed. SG will therefore look for another publishing partner as they have indicated they want 2E published.
> 
> Not sure why any of the owners of the rights would care about a delay with the publishing of a niche product by the license holder due to a commercial agreement between the holder and another party being terminated.



Did C7 do anything other than publish the books? As in, do we expect a major change in style, editorial perspective or art direction should SG decide to publish directly?


----------



## aramis erak

Reynard said:


> Did C7 do anything other than publish the books? As in, do we expect a major change in style, editorial perspective or art direction should SG decide to publish directly?



Many of the books were worked on by C7 staffers, and the primary artist and art director for much of the line was Jon Hodgeson, who was, until recently, a C7 staffer, and very much the voice of C7 in the C7 TOR Forums. If Jon's implication is inferred correctly, then there should be at least visual continuity... Noting that Jon has not confirmed participation, merely implied it by where and when and how he phrased that post.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Cubicle 7 and their authors did all the work on TOR and AiME and Sophisticated Games was just the license holder and go-between and, I think, probably got greedy and wanted a bigger piece of the pie from TOR 2nd Ed, forcing C7 to terminate their deal. I honestly do not believe that C7 came to the decision without any outside influence at all.



aramis erak said:


> IP is rife with ugly niggling bits. I only found out about SG having the license when C7 pulled out of the partnership. Several of the reports covered that.




I knew about this arrangement before the original slipcase version of the core rules were published, as I was following the development of the game as soon as it was announced.


----------



## aramis erak

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Cubicle 7 and their authors did all the work on TOR and AiME ...



 Several were done or contributed to by freelancers, rather than C7 staff.


----------



## Nikosandros

aramis erak said:


> Several were done or contributed to by freelancers, rather than C7 staff.



Indeed. The authors of the game, Francesco Nepitello and Marco Maggi, do not work for C7.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

aramis erak said:


> Several were done or contributed to by freelancers, rather than C7 staff.




Same thing to me. They were hired or contracted by C7 and not Sophisticated Games, and while they wrote the material, they worked for C7. It is not like they wrote the rule book, then took it to C7 and said "look at this cool book, you should go and talk to SG about sub-leasing their deal to publish Middle-Earth games." So on the actual payroll as an employee or hired to freelance the work, they were still being paid by C7.


----------



## aramis erak

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Same thing to me. They were hired or contracted by C7 and not Sophisticated Games, and while they wrote the material, they worked for C7. It is not like they wrote the rule book, then took it to C7 and said "look at this cool book, you should go and talk to SG about sub-leasing their deal to publish Middle-Earth games." So on the actual payroll as an employee or hired to freelance the work, they were still being paid by C7.



Francisco and Marco went to SG, who contracted C7, at least that's the impression Francisco was giving on RPGG.


----------



## BookBarbarian

FYI $15 will get you digital copies of all the Adventures in Middle-Earth books









						Humble RPG Book Bundle: Lord of the Rings 5e by Cubicle 7
					

Ready to bring your campaigns to Middle Earth? Check what's inside our latest RPG bundle: Lord of the Rings 5e by Cubicle 7! Plus, support charity.




					www.humblebundle.com


----------



## AndromedaRPG

BookBarbarian said:


> FYI $15 will get you digital copies of all the Adventures in Middle-Earth books
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humble RPG Book Bundle: Lord of the Rings 5e by Cubicle 7
> 
> 
> Ready to bring your campaigns to Middle Earth? Check what's inside our latest RPG bundle: Lord of the Rings 5e by Cubicle 7! Plus, support charity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.humblebundle.com




Well, it is all of them but the Rohan Region Guide. Still an awesome deal! That final PDF can be purchased from DriveThruRPG at this time.


----------



## Lurker Above

Oh well, another Middle Earth tabletop rpg bites the dust, leaving MERP as the continuing champion of the genre.  I wanted to like TOR/AiME but I just thought the mechanics in both cases were too intrusive and meta-gamey.  The character classes were pretty lame as well.  This is too bad because the art was pretty good and the decision to set the game between The Hobbit and LOTR made sense from a standpoint of familiarity, though it also had limitations that one didn't have with the earlier default time period of MERP.  Still, a bit of a shame they didn't get to finish the product line they had planned out.


----------



## PabloM

Lurker Above said:


> (...) leaving MERP as the continuing champion of the genre.




Frankly, that is not a fact and it´s quite debatable.


----------



## JeffB

My 2 clacks..

ICE/MERP held the license the longest by far : 82-ish  for the first ME universal system supplement, then '84 for MERP itself  and held through 1999. And produced the most amount of material by far.

And disregarding whatever one feels about the system itself, the source material that ICE produced are some of the best RPG "Lore" material produced in the hobby. On the whole, the MERP sourcebooks are pretty danged amazing  The maps too- Fantastic maps.  I'd say if there was a downfall it would be _some_ of the adventure books. Not all, but some.  

Also- Angus McBride one of the best (and prolific ME) artists of all time- His covers and interiors- well C7 or Decipher cannot compare in the least.

From a business perspective ICE did a fantastic job with keeping the setting alive much like WEG did for Star Wars during times when the franchise was otherwise dead. Today,  it's easy to be successful with a LOTR/ME product unless you are inept. But when ICE had the license,  It was nowhere near the pop culture heavyweight it is now in the post PJ Movie years. 

So yeah, I'd give ICE's work the nod. The bad thing is the MERP material is not available anymore for purchase and print copies of most things are VERY expensive so many people are not/will never be familiar with it


----------



## Crusadius

PabloM said:


> Frankly, that is not a fact and it´s quite debatable.




To add to the post by @JeffB, MERP had two editions and, according to wikipedia, ICE was working on a 3rd edition before they lost the licence. ICE also release a CCG and an introductory rpg with the Intellectual Property. MERP may not be the best ruleset for LotR, but ICE supported the IP for 15 years and from all appearances would have kept going for a few more years. For longevity and support, I think ICE is ahead of the pack.


----------



## Lurker Above

The setting detail alone in the ICE products is amazing.  Sure, they went "off canon" a bit, but is it cool to have names and backstories for all nine ringwraiths?  Hell, yes!  

And unlike TOR or AiME, they didn't just try to shoehorn you into reliving the books with restrictive journey mechanics and audiences and patrons and crap like that.  They gave you a metric ton of material and said, enjoy!  The maps alone are worth the product price.  I'm still re-purposing those old MERP maps for my current games.


----------



## Laurefindel

Depends what you mean by « champion ».

if by that you mean most content produced and for the longest run, then yes; that is irrefutable.

If you mean best Tolkien RPG; then TOR beats MERP big time. You may not agree, but that is the nature of « not a fact and debatable »  Same goes for Jon Hodgson’s art. If you give me choice between starting a new game in Middle Earth today, I'll choose TOR over MERP in a heartbeat.

Also, it’s hard to compare publishing between now and then. It’s like saying 2e AD&D is champion of Dungeons and Dragons because it published more material. And while I agree that Middle-Earth is easier to sell "at large" post Peter Jackson, it was already very well known among the RP community. If anything , the slower books' feel of Tolkien (as opposed to PJ's action-movie rhythm) is harder to sell now than ever.

MERP was a remarkable game, but TOR didn’t only live in it’s shadows.


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden

Laurefindel said:


> Depends what you mean by « champion ».
> 
> if by that you mean most content produced and for the longest run, then yes; that is irrefutable.
> 
> If you mean best Tolkien RPG; then TOR beats MERP big time. You may not agree, but that is the nature of « not a fact and debatable »  Same goes for Jon Hodgson’s art. If you give me choice between starting a new game in Middle Earth today, I'll choose TOR over MERP in a heartbeat.




Hear, hear!

To me, MERP just... never felt like Tolkien. Maybe it was the fact that it was set over a thousand years before the trilogy, in a much... busier... Middle Earth. But in general - too many people, too much spellcasting, too high powered. 

Some great materials and ideas to steal for D&D campaigns, though. I especially like the fortress and city maps!


----------



## Hurin88

Tyler Do'Urden said:


> Hear, hear!
> 
> To me, MERP just... never felt like Tolkien. Maybe it was the fact that it was set over a thousand years before the trilogy, in a much... busier... Middle Earth. But in general - too many people, too much spellcasting, too high powered.
> 
> Some great materials and ideas to steal for D&D campaigns, though. I especially like the fortress and city maps!




I think those criticisms are fair for the most part, though I would note that many MERP books (especially the later ones) gave guidance for adventures not just in TA 1640, but also later in the Third Age near the War of the Ring. 

For my money, the MERP books have never been equalled in sheer number, depth, or density of their lore. They are indeed the champion imho.


----------



## JeffB

I actually prefer the timeline the majority of MERP products were set in- Make the PCs the Heroes of that Age, instead of setting it closer to Bilbo's finding of the One Ring and the War for it-where everyone knows the real heroes will be doing the greatest deeds shortly thereafter. Star Wars can also be an issue in this regard, but there is so much more to do in an entire galaxy and the scope is so much larger- vs. ME's persistent and focused theme of Morgoth/Sauron over the ages and occurring  basically on one continent.

I think right after the Fall of Angmar and the flight of the Witch King in the Third Age is perfect for actual Middle Earth gaming. Whether you want to do "Dungeon Crawls" or HEXploration, or get into the Politics. At any rate- that 1640-ish to 2000 span is prime RPG adventure time.

EDIT- I should also say- last time I ran a ME game I used Fantasy Age, by Green Ronin.  Works quite well.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

TOR 100%, no contest whatsoever, for me.

The feel of play is closer, the art more evocative, I can immediately sit down and pretend to be an elf of Mirkwood leaving home because a darkness is rising and I need to find allies against it.

I love the deep lore of Middle Earth, but I don’t want to play in its “old republic era” equivalent. At that point, I might as well be playing in a homebrew world.


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## Laurefindel

To be clear, it is not the quality of MERP that is questioned here; I’m only refuting the un-debatable fact that it will remain the champion of all Middle Earth rpg to date.


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## Lurker Above

For the reasons others have noted, I'd still personally rank MERP at the top, especially considering Middle Earth more broadly.  I find both TOR and AiME pretty limited in scope and too slavishly wedded to trying to replicate the "feel" of the books.  If that's what you want, fine.  But I always preferred just getting into the setting rather than trying to recreate the novels.


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## Skywalker

Lurker Above said:


> Oh well, another Middle Earth tabletop rpg bites the dust, leaving MERP as the continuing champion of the genre.




You obviously did not read this post before you decided to try and turn into "MERP is the best ME RPG ever" thread. Just above your post is an explanation that the licence remains with SG and SG have said that TOR will continue given how successful and well received it has been. C7 has just decided not to publish TOR and AME books any further.


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## Skywalker

The one thing I will say about MERP is that it recognised that ME was all about magic items. It went so far as to include the PCs finding a magic medallion in the gutter on the way through Minas Tirith in the opening box text for Palantir Quest. Class.


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## JeffB

Lurker Above said:


> I find both TOR and AiME pretty limited in scope and too slavishly wedded to trying to replicate the "feel" of the books.  If that's what you want, fine.  But I always preferred just getting into the setting rather than trying to recreate the novels.





This is the headspace I am in as well-

I would say, ToR/AIME do a fine job of emulating the style of adventures/journey that Bilbo & the Dwarves, as well as the Fellowship went through.  In  emulating the good Professor's work there is no doubt the C7 systems win hands down.

But that's not what I wish to do if I'm going to run a RPG in ME. I'm not terribly interested in emulating those Journeys with more Epic scale/scope or even touching on things like despair/hope, etc.  I'm more interested in the other clans of Hobbits. What about those Sackville Baggins? Or the other Dunedain Rangers who fought against the Witch King and Angmar's hordes?  Other Elves who fought at the end of the Second Age and survived? What about the other two Wizards (blue and green?) and times when Gandalf was not around and Saruman was the good guy. When Gondor was not in such decline. All the bazillions of people and places and rumors and stories and lore mentioned by The Professor. Lets check that out.

For a RPG I don't want to emulate the books and the heroes. It's not just a ME thing either- Same if I am playing Star Wars or Stormbringer or Lhankmar, or James Bond, or Supers games or other properties where novels/movies are  the inspiration and the big massive epic events have already happened. In Dragonlance_- I don't want to run the WotL- There's already a bunch of Heroes who save the day. If I was going to play The Witcher I wouldn't care about Geralt or his "friends" or the current War stuff going on. Whats going on elsewhere with other Witchers, like the one that got killed in the 1st season - What was his story?  What other lands are not ravaged at this time and ripe for adventure? Who are all those other Wizards? Where are they from?

I think the TOR and the AIME books are *very well done*- especially the adventure/region books- . I'm also not terribly smitten with MERP or a Hater. I prefer other systems, but I do prefer the MERP timeline and products that support it.

Different strokes and all that.


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## JeffB

OH FYI for all- Great series of articles here re: RPGing in ME (this came out prior to AIME, I believe). There are 4 or 5 of them. Links to following articles are at bottom of each page

Playing D&D in ME-


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## darjr

MERP being like GURPS books? Yea I see that. I have some too, and want more. 

TOR is a pure gem. Evocative and compelling and brings to life Middle Earth. The magic in it alone is subtle yet powerful and feels just like it should. 

As a game I feel MERP was a poor way to play in Middle Earth. It never quite felt right. 

We’ll never get MERP back and that’s OK. But it does look like TOR will live on.


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## GreyLord

I liked MERP, it seemed to get one thing down that many others didn't.  Combat was deadly.

Even more deadly than 5e.

When you have Dragons being equivalent of level 150, and Wizards like Saruman being similar...a maximum of level 10 isn't all that great.  

You can extrapolate, but it still is a long ways to dealing with many of the more powerful creatures.

Orcs and others are pretty reasonable threats, and in a way far more deadly than what you see in 5e or derivatives.  One orc can lay your 3rd or even 5th level character to rest...if played right by the GM.

Magic may be somewhat abundant, but spells are still harder to gain and cast than in 5e (or any version of D&D for that matter).

That doesn't make MERP better than AiME or TOR, just a different flavor for a different feel for the books.

I think it depends on how you view the books and how you view combat.  Combat is far easier to survive at low level in the new games, while it was something to avoid at all costs in may ways in the MERPS at low level.

Travel and lands may be better replicated by TOR, while ideas of the rest and recuperation seem to be imitated by it as well in better form.

I think it really boils down to preference.  I'd probably prefer MERPS, but that may be simply from not having a good GM run TOR or AiME.


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## doctorbadwolf

What sets ME apart, IMO, is that the tone of the adventures, things like hope and despair, weakness and shadow, bolstering eachother's hope and falling to shadow in solitude, these are part of what the _setting _is. I'd be reluctant to play in any era or region of ME without those dynamics in play. 

I also don't want to meet with Aragorn, or whatever, when I play in ME, and I absolutely feel free to mess with canon in any setting, even ME. But there are tonal things that if I didn't want to use, I'd just play in a homebrew.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Well, whatever we think of past game systems for Middle-Earth, and I count TOR and AiME in the past, whatever we see as the next game will probably come out around the time the Amazon Prime Middle-Earth series debuts. And since that is set in the 2nd Age, I expect the game, or at least the first supplement, to be the same. Still no real mages, but a lot more magic and magic items floating around in that time period.


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## PabloM

Won't somebody please think of CODA system?


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## Tyler Do'Urden

PabloM said:


> Won't somebody please think of CODA system?




I think we'd all rather not...


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## Crusadius

Laurefindel said:


> To be clear, it is not the quality of MERP that is questioned here; I’m only refuting the un-debatable fact that it will remain the champion of all Middle Earth rpg to date.




Ahem. For 15 years MERP was the Number One Lord of the Rings roleplaying game*. TOR has a few years to go before it knocks MERP from that perch.... 


Ah but I joke. TOR is definitely the better system. I would play TOR over MERP any day. But at the time of MERP, I preferred it over the granddaddy of them all: AD&D.
* It was the only LotR RPG


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## Ravenbrook

But the MERP maps!!! They are indeed PRECIOUS!!!


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## teitan

Having finally cracked open my AIME Player’s Guide I must collapse to my knees and cry NOOOOOOOOOO! And then buy the humble bundle until I can get the rest of what’s published.


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