# Essentials Rules Compendium preview copy in hand



## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Today we received a preview copy of the Rules Compendium.



First impressions:

It doesn't lay flat unless opened to about the middle of the book. Might improve with use. EDIT This is slowly improving.
Easy to read, no extra color added to page just to make it full color (it is but some pages are just b&w text)
Table of Contents type is a little small for my aging eyes. But TOC is all on one 3-column page.
Good quality paper and binding. Should hold up to substantial use, but time will tell.
Time to do a quick read and see what it has. I will answer questions and update this post as well. Please do not ask for me to retype sections of the book. 
Edit: Looks to be a very handy reference book of the rules, useful for pre-essentials games as well, I have not found anything that contradicts or changes any rules, other than Magic Item Rarity which is new and errata which has been incorporated.

EDIT: Used at the gaming table it IS a good quick reference for a regular 4E game. 
edit:Table of Contents (in brief)

Introduction (pg 5)
Chapter 1 The Basics (pg19)
Chapter 2 Adventurers and Monsters (pg59) (on page 74 they start the character creation rules)
Chapter 3 Understanding Powers (pg 89)
Chapter 4 Skills (pg123) (this includes skill checks and skill challenges)
Chapter 5 Exploration and the Environment (pg165)
Chapter 6 Combat (pg187)
Chapter 7 Equipment (pg263)
Appendix 1 Building a Combat Encounter (pg285)
Appendix 2 Rewards (pg289)
Appendix 3 Terrain Features (pg303)
Glossary (pg308)
Index (pg318)


For my customers: Book is at the store. Come in and take a look. Sit down with it for a bit. Buy it a cup of coffee.


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## Cormacolinde (Aug 31, 2010)

Mostly curious about rules regarding:
- Implements
- Weapliments


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## Neverfate (Aug 31, 2010)

How is the book structured? Table of contents puts the rules in what order? etc 

Table of contents/book have any glaring omissions? ( I realize that's an in depth question, but it's bound to come up over time)


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Cormacolinde said:


> Mostly curious about rules regarding:
> - Implements
> - Weapliments



What about them?
It does say some weapons can be used as implements, proficiency required to use as weapon, separate proficiency required to use as implement.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Neverfate said:


> How is the book structured? Table of contents puts the rules in what order? etc
> 
> Table of contents/book have any glaring omissions? ( I realize that's an in depth question, but it's bound to come up over time)



Book has section on how to equipment descriptions  (weapons, armor, magic items) but the actual lists are not in this book. Explaining weapon groups and properties are here, as this book is where you look up the rules.


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## UngeheuerLich (Aug 31, 2010)

Are there infos about skill DCs, how to use them in skill challenges and diseases?

Thanks for sharing all that stuff with us.


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## Reaper Steve (Aug 31, 2010)

Does it appear to be current through the 6 July 2010 rules update?
For example, under Prone, there should no longer be any mention of flying creatures descending their speed... they just fall.

Any new changes jump out at you (that may be in the forthcoming 7 Oct errata?)


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Reaper Steve said:


> Does it appear to be current through the 6 July 2010 rules update?
> For example, under Prone, there should no longer be any mention of flying creatures descending their speed... they just fall.
> 
> Any new changes jump out at you (that may be in the forthcoming 7 Oct errata?)



Checked Prone. Climbing or flying creatures just fall if knocked prone. Havern't seen enough yet to tell about other changes.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Are there infos about skill DCs, how to use them in skill challenges and diseases?
> 
> Thanks for sharing all that stuff with us.



Rules for skills and skill checks are here, including healing and disease checks. How to use skill checks and the disease progressions are explained in general, but individual disease effects are not here, presumably in the DM kit.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 31, 2010)

I must spread some experience around!


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## abyssaldeath (Aug 31, 2010)

Is it just a book of compiled rules or do they try and do a better job of explaining the rules by using more examples or more descriptive text?


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 31, 2010)

are the condtions layed out like in the PHB1 (in there own little boxes)?

and how easy is the index to use (well I guess is there an index)... if I need to look up grappling, or opp attacks/actions, or skill DCs how hard are they to find?


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

abyssaldeath said:


> Is it just a book of compiled rules or do they try and do a better job of explaining the rules by using more examples or more descriptive text?



They do use more examples and different descriptive text. It seems clearer, but that might be because I am already familiar with the rules.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

GMforPowergamers said:


> are the condtions layed out like in the PHB1 (in there own little boxes)?
> 
> and how easy is the index to use (well I guess is there an index)... if I need to look up grappling, or opp attacks/actions, or skill DCs how hard are they to find?



Conditions are covered in just over 6 pages, not in their own boxes. They are each covered again in the glossary. 
Index pointed me to each skill. Likewise OA's, but I find no mention yet of grapple or tripping.
edit: I am reminded down thread that tripping and grappling are not part of 4e.


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> Conditions are covered in just over 6 pages, not in their own boxes. They are covered again in the glossary.
> Index pointed me to each skill. Likewise OA's, but I find no mention yet of grapple or tripping.




cool, one last one (but it might take a while)... in general would you use this to quickly look up a rule at the table?


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## vic20 (Aug 31, 2010)

Do they speak to the new magic item rarity?


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

GMforPowergamers said:


> cool, one last one (but it might take a while)... in general would you use this to quickly look up a rule at the table?



Right now, yes, but I need to find out why Grappling and Tripping aren't here, and see what else is missing and where they would be found.


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## Aegeri (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> Index pointed me to each skill. Likewise OA's, but I find no mention yet of grapple or tripping.



That's because neither of those exist in 4E  Grapple should technically be covered under the rules for grab though, but it is pretty straightforward rules wise. Tripping has never existed in 4E, so I'm not sure why you would think it was there.

Can you tell me if the rules for coup de grace are still in the book?


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

vic20 said:


> Do they speak to the new magic item rarity?



Yes. Indexed under Rarity. Explanations of types of items in each catagory are mostly:
Common item: single enhancement or property. But few cities have magic shops where items can be freely purchased. Adventurers will need to seek out the artisans who can create these items, but "without the shopping trip becoming an adventure in its own right."
Uncommon and Rare items were created in the distant past, their creation secrets lost in time.

There is no list of magic items in this book.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Aegeri said:


> That's because neither of those exist in 4E  Grapple should technically be covered under the rules for grab though, but it is pretty straightforward rules wise. Tripping has never existed in 4E, so I'm not sure why you would think it was there.
> 
> Can you tell me if the rules for coup de grace are still in the book?



Sorry, I'm a victim of playing 4e and Pathfinder at the same time. It could give a person whiplash (rules for which I don't believe are in either game).

Coup de grace is covered.


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## Jimwise (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> There is no list of magic items in this book.




Poo.  I guess those must be in the DMs Kit.  Was really hoping to have all my treasure parcels and magic items in the RC!


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Jimwise said:


> Poo. I guess those must be in the DMs Kit. Was really hoping to have all my treasure parcels and magic items in the RC!



Treasure parcels are here.


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## Aegeri (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> Coup de grace is covered.




Ah, the DM screen then might be a mistake because under helpless it doesn't list you as being a valid target of a coup de grace attack. I thought they had removed coup de grace.


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## Reaper Steve (Aug 31, 2010)

How are the rules structured? Not looking for the full ToC, but just the order of the major sections.

For instance, a peeve of mine is how the PHB (and most every other RPG rules set) puts character generation first. Granted, it is the most important thing to a player, but I argue that the rules of the game should come first. It feels wierd every time I have to look up a game play rule all the way in the back of the PHB.

Also, is it really 300+ pages?


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Aegeri said:


> Ah, the DM screen then might be a mistake because under helpless it doesn't list you as being a valid target of a coup de grace attack. I thought they had removed coup de grace.



The book says nothing about CDG under Helpless, but does mention Helpless under coup de grace.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Reaper Steve said:


> How are the rules structured? Not looking for the full ToC, but just the order of the major sections.
> 
> For instance, a peeve of mine is how the PHB (and most every other RPG rules set) puts character generation first. Granted, it is the most important thing to a player, but I argue that the rules of the game should come first. It feels wierd every time I have to look up a game play rule all the way in the back of the PHB.



TOC:
Introduction (pg 5)
Chapter 1 The Basics (pg19)
Chapter 2 Adventurers and Monsters (pg59) (on page 74 they start the character creation rules)
Chapter 3 Understanding Powers (pg 89)
Chapter 4 Skills (pg123) (this includes skill checks and skill challenges)
Chapter 5 Exploration and the Environment (pg165)
Chapter 6 Combat (pg187)
Chapter 7 Equipment (pg263)
Appendix 1 Building a Combat Encounter (pg285)
Appendix 2 Rewards (pg289)
Appendix 3 Terrain Features (pg303)
Glossary (pg308)
Index (pg318)



> Also, is it really 300+ pages?



 Last page of index is 319, advert for other Essentials on final pg 320. So, yes.


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## fjw70 (Aug 31, 2010)

How thick is the book?


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## Reaper Steve (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks, Curt! I owe you more XP after I spread the love.


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## fullchromelogic (Aug 31, 2010)

This is the essentials product I have been waiting for and am most excited about.  I've been resisting the urge to cut/paste errata into my core books, or carry print outs, so having an updated, portable reference is super exciting for me.

Does the book feature any cross-indexing or references to other books?  Would love if it told me where in the DMG I can find disease tracks, or what chapter in PHB2 contains alchemy, or whatever.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

fjw70 said:


> How thick is the book?



The book is about 5/8 inch thick. It measures 6x9 inches (convert to metric on your own)


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

fullchromelogic said:


> This is the essentials product I have been waiting for and am most excited about. I've been resisting the urge to cut/paste errata into my core books, or carry print outs, so having an updated, portable reference is super exciting for me.
> 
> Does the book feature any cross-indexing or references to other books? Would love if it told me where in the DMG I can find disease tracks, or what chapter in PHB2 contains alchemy, or whatever.



Sorry. While I have looked for just that, so far I find no instances of cross-referencing.
But to be fair, which books could it cross reference?


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## Henry (Aug 31, 2010)

Question: When is it offered in premiere stores? Sept. 10?


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Henry said:


> Question: When is it offered in premiere stores? Sept. 10?



Core+ sale date is Sept 10 for this, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, and the Master Tile Set.


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## fjw70 (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> The book is about 5/8 inch thick. It measures 6x9 inches (convert to metric on your own)




No conversion necessary. I am a Yankee too (but my southern relatives would shoot me for saying that).

Thanks. About 10.5 days to go and this and the HotFL will be mine.


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## fjw70 (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> Yes. Indexed under Rarity. Explanations of types of items in each catagory are mostly:
> Common item: single enhancement or property. But few cities have magic shops where items can be freely purchased. Adventurers will need to seek out the artisans who can create these items, but "without the shopping trip becoming an adventure in its own right."
> Uncommon and Rare items were created in the distant past, their cration secrets lost in time.




Now that's my kind of D&D.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

I am starting to see the Essentials books a little differently now. The 3.5 books made the 3.0 books obsolete. The Essential books might make some of the pre-Essential books redundant.


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## JohnSnow (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> The book is about 5/8 inch thick. It measures 6x9 inches (convert to metric on your own)





Thickness: ~1.5 cm
Height: 22.86 cm
Width: 15.24 cm


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## JohnSnow (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> I am starting to see the Essentials books a little differently now. The 3.5 books made the 3.0 books obsolete. The Essential books might make some of the pre-Essential books redundant.




I think that is largely the point. An updated version that in no way invalidates what came before.

I freely admit Essentials is "a revision" to 4th Edition (the latest), but I don't think that makes it 4.5, because 4e has been continuously revised since its introduction. That somewhat begs the question: "With this model going forward, will there ever NEED to be a 5e?"

But I guess that's kinda off-topic.


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## Thraug (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> Core+ sale date is Sept 10 for this, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, and the Master Tile Set.




Amazon is still saying the release date is Sept 21. Where is Sept 10 coming from?


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## fjw70 (Aug 31, 2010)

Thraug said:


> Amazon is still saying the release date is Sept 21. Where is Sept 10 coming from?




My LGS guy said that Premier stores can sell 11 days early.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Thraug said:


> Amazon is still saying the release date is Sept 21. Where is Sept 10 coming from?



Sept 21 is the regular street date. Starting with PHB3, WotC has been making it possible for the brick & mortar stores that provide play space and promote their products to receive and sell most D&D products 11 days early. Stores that meet certain criteria of organized play, sales rates, and play space can qualify. This is the Premier Store program of WotC. There are three tiers: Gateway, Core, and Advanced. Only Core level or higher get the early release dates. It's WotC's way of recognizing and thanking the stores that promote their games.


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## Saracenus (Aug 31, 2010)

Thraug said:


> Amazon is still saying the release date is Sept 21. Where is Sept 10 coming from?





Game Stores that have become Premier stores get D&D product 11 days before street date. Sept 21 - 11 days = Sept 10.

You can look up your local premier store at the WotC website here:
Store & Event Locator - Wizards of the Coast

Hope this helps,


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## Phreddkroe (Aug 31, 2010)

Does it go into any kind of depth on rare items other than what you posted earlier? For instance, does it hint at what kind of powers they have or any special rules governing them. Also, does it mention the variant tables for random magic item distribution. Finally, are the only ads for other products for Essentials books or does it mention pre-Essenials products/DDI? 

Sorry for all the questions, and thank you very much for giving us these previews.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Phreddkroe said:


> Does it go into any kind of depth on rare items other than what you posted earlier? For instance, does it hint at what kind of powers they have or any special rules governing them. Also, does it mention the variant tables for random magic item distribution.



Not much more depth. No mention of variant tables. 







> Finally, are the only ads for other products for Essentials books or does it mention pre-Essenials products/DDI?



 Only the one page for Essentials.


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## mach1.9pants (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> I am starting to see the Essentials books a little differently now. The 3.5 books made the 3.0 books obsolete. The Essential books might make some of the pre-Essential books redundant.




Can you explain how? You still cannot make a PC using the RC, so you need either the books or the DDi. IMO the RC will make the older books as obsolete as DDi does, almost personal preference. I reckon it will certainly make them obsolete _at the table in game time_.


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## Reaper Steve (Aug 31, 2010)

One more:
Anything in the RC that indicates whether the Thief Rogue will use Movement Tricks (like the ampersand preview) or Attack Manuevers (like the Red Box)?

Or, will we have to wait for HotFL to finally clear that up?


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## ArcaneSpringboard (Aug 31, 2010)

Have the treasure parcel values changed at all?  IE are the Epic levels reduced in treasure?


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Reaper Steve said:


> One more:
> Anything in the RC that indicates whether the Thief Rogue will use Movement Tricks (like the ampersand preview) or Attack Manuevers (like the Red Box)?
> 
> Or, will we have to wait for HotFL to finally clear that up?



No class info here.


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## Hawke (Aug 31, 2010)

If there ever was a D&D book that just screams for a kindle version, this is it.  Have any future errata auto updated, and you're good to go. 

Please please please wizards, make it happen!


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## SquareKnot (Aug 31, 2010)

Looking at the Rules Compendium, could this book be used for any 4th Edition genre? For example, is the content clearly tied to D&D _fantasy_, or could it be used for Gamma World? Or a western setting (a la Boot Hill) or a space setting (Star Frontiers) or ...?

I'm just curious if they tried to keep the game rules as presented in the Compendium fairly generic.

Thanks


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

ArcaneSpringboard said:


> Have the treasure parcel values changed at all? IE are the Epic levels reduced in treasure?



Big changes. Not done quite as parcels. Roll a d20 for each line on chart for party level (not encounter level). There are modifiers. That treasure is found if target number is reached.


> For a party level 1
> (11-14) 2d6 x 100 sp; (15+) 2d6 x 10 gp
> (18+) 1d2 gems worth 100 gp
> (20+) one art object worth 250 gp
> (13+) one magic item of level 1d4 +1


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

SquareKnot said:


> Looking at the Rules Compendium, could this book be used for any 4th Edition genre? For example, is the content clearly tied to D&D _fantasy_, or could it be used for Gamma World? Or a western setting (a la Boot Hill) or a space setting (Star Frontiers) or ...?
> 
> I'm just curious if they tried to keep the game rules as presented in the Compendium fairly generic.
> 
> Thanks



References to magic, but mostly generic. However nothing hinting at firearms or anything techy.


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## Trtrnx (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> No class info here.




Does that mean no race info either, or does the book give the new stat bonus splits for all the PHB and PHB2 races? (e.g. dwarves get +2 Con, and +2 Str or Wis)


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Trtrnx said:


> Does that mean no race info either, or does the book give the new stat bonus splits for all the PHB and PHB2 races? (e.g. dwarves get +2 Con, and +2 Str or Wis)



Correct, no info. It does refer you to books like _Heroes of the Fallen Lands_ and_ Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms._


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## Thraug (Aug 31, 2010)

Saracenus said:


> Game Stores that have become Premier stores get D&D product 11 days before street date. Sept 21 - 11 days = Sept 10.
> 
> You can look up your local premier store at the WotC website here:
> Store & Event Locator - Wizards of the Coast
> ...




Wow, that definitely helps! How did I miss this premier store stuff? Ack, I'm getting old.  
Thanks!


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## RuinsFate (Aug 31, 2010)

Just signed up to be able to ask - 

Is there a section regarding the Mounted Combat rules? I've been after clarifications and alterations to these for a while. And if so, can you give me any noticeable details?


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## Phreddkroe (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> Big changes. Not done quite as parcels. Roll a d20 for each line on chart for party level (not encounter level). There are modifiers. That treasure is found if target number is reached.



So basically, there are X amount of parcels per level, and for each parcel, you roll on that level's chart? Is this presented as the default parcel system now or a variant to the current system? Thanks for the info.


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## pawel (Aug 31, 2010)

according to the 4ED Players Handbook p.276 to damage rolls adds all the bonuses (item, ranacial, enhancement etc.) whether it has been explained in relation to auto damage like rain of steel?


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## FabioMilitoPagliara (Aug 31, 2010)

thank you Thalmin, this is very helpful, hope that you get the Heroes of the fallen lands as soon as possible


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## Psikerlord# (Aug 31, 2010)

Phreddkroe said:


> So basically, there are X amount of parcels per level, and for each parcel, you roll on that level's chart? Is this presented as the default parcel system now or a variant to the current system? Thanks for the info.




I'm glad the (semi) random magic item table made it in there. I'm also curious though if the standard treasure parcel system is still around? Thanks for sharing!


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## Pickles JG (Aug 31, 2010)

pawel said:


> according to the 4ED Players Handbook p.276 to damage rolls adds all the bonuses (item, ranacial, enhancement etc.) whether it has been explained in relation to auto damage like rain of steel?




I want to know too, does it make some of the implicit rules explicit like this one?

Does it define what is meant by "attack"? 

Though frankly getting that right would mean rewriting a mass of powers & abilities.


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## Baumi (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks for doing another great preview! 

Could you please post the new Skill-Challenge DC's and any other Skill-Challenge change that you might find?


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

RuinsFate said:


> Just signed up to be able to ask -
> 
> Is there a section regarding the Mounted Combat rules? I've been after clarifications and alterations to these for a while. And if so, can you give me any noticeable details?



Mounted Combat gets 3 pages. *Space* gets a full paragraph, with explanation that a rider's *close burst* that doesn't target only enemies will also be able to hit the mount.


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## Stalker0 (Aug 31, 2010)

Does the game finally get a damage value for lava?

Also I had heard they had updated the flying rules, any info on that?


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Phreddkroe said:


> So basically, there are X amount of parcels per level, and for each parcel, you roll on that level's chart? Is this presented as the default parcel system now or a variant to the current system? Thanks for the info.



Right, if X=number of encounters. It looks like it is possible, though unlikely, that a party could get 10 of everything (if X=10), or could get nothing for that level, if a DM went strictly by the rolls. There are further guidelines for the DM, though.


Psikerlord# said:


> I'm glad the (semi) random magic item table made it in there. I'm also curious though if the standard treasure parcel system is still around? Thanks for sharing!



The standard parcel system is not there.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Pickles JG said:


> I want to know too, does it make some of the implicit rules explicit like this one?
> 
> Does it define what is meant by "attack"?
> 
> Though frankly getting that right would mean rewriting a mass of powers & abilities.



I will quote part of a sentence from the section on extra damage. 







> a power doesn't have to hit a target to deal extra damage - it needs only to deal damage to the target.



As for defining *attack, *the Glossary says 







> *attack: *An attack roll and its effects, including any damage rolls. The word "attack" is sometimes used as shorthand for "attack power." Some attack powers include multiple attacks, and some powers, such as _magic missile,_are designated as attacks yet lack attack rolls (using such a power counts as making an attack if the power has a target).


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## abyssaldeath (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> I will quote part of a sentence from the section on extra damage.
> As for defining *attack, *the Glossary says




I obviously don't have it yet, but RC is quickly becoming my favorite book.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Stalker0 said:


> Does the game finally get a damage value for lava?
> 
> Also I had heard they had updated the flying rules, any info on that?



While the book explains how to read a Trap/Hazard stat block, it doesn't include any but the one sample of Spear Gauntlet. 
There is a full page about Flying.


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## lutecius (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> No class info here.



what about multiclassing? daily-less classes will probably bring about new rules.

the previews made me think about giving 4e another chance but the flexibility of multiclassing (or lack thereof) could make or break the deal for me.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

lutecius said:


> what about multiclassing? daily-less classes will probably bring about new rules.
> 
> the previews made me think about giving 4e another chance but the flexibility of multiclassing (or lack thereof) could make or break the deal for me.



Not a subject for this book, sorry.


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## FabioMilitoPagliara (Aug 31, 2010)

lutecius said:


> what about multiclassing? daily-less classes will probably bring about new rules.
> 
> the previews made me think about giving 4e another chance but the flexibility of multiclassing (or lack thereof) could make or break the deal for me.




I think it's Hybrid or standard multiclassing, that's very old-school (you are defined by the class you chose at 1st level)

multiclassing is almost unchanged, hybrid was presented on Dragon Magazine as playtest and then in Phb3


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## Joshua Randall (Aug 31, 2010)

> attack: An attack roll and its effects, including any damage rolls. The word "attack" is sometimes used as shorthand for "attack power." Some attack powers include multiple attacks, and some powers, such as magic missile,are designated as attacks yet lack attack rolls (using such a power counts as making an attack if the power has a target).



Ugh. Is is just me, or does this quote-unquote definition simply add to the confusion?

An attack is:
* an attack roll and its effects including damage
* short for an attack power
* somehow has something to do with multiple attacks
* some powers are attack even though they don't feature a roll but they do have a target

So when my PC targets another PC with healing word, is that an attack? Obviously not, but you wouldn't know it from this "definition".


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## vaultdweller (Aug 31, 2010)

Saracenus said:


> Game Stores that have become Premier stores get D&D product 11 days before street date. Sept 21 - 11 days = Sept 10.
> 
> You can look up your local premier store at the WotC website here:
> Store & Event Locator - Wizards of the Coast
> ...



Are all of the stores listed there Premier stores with early release dates?  I normally wouldn't even consider entering the local (un)FLGS, but I want to get a look at some of this stuff ASAP.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

vaultdweller said:


> Are all of the stores listed there Premier stores with early release dates? I normally wouldn't even consider entering the local (un)FLGS, but I want to get a look at some of this stuff ASAP.



Not all stores listed are Premier Stores, but the flags are color-coded to show Premiere. Unfortunately, only Core Level or higher get the early release. Further, only a few stores were selected for the preview copy like we received.


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## UngeheuerLich (Aug 31, 2010)

Is there info about:

beast companions and familiars?

It is kind of lame, that the compendium is no help here. I am hoping for the rules companion to cover this (instead of having to look into dragon articles).

Thanks


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Is there info about:
> 
> beast companions and familiars?
> 
> ...



No mention of companions or familiars of any kind.


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## Aratargul (Aug 31, 2010)

is there info of milestone or they remove it???


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## TikkchikFenTikktikk (Aug 31, 2010)

What does it say about skill challenges?


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## vaultdweller (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> No mention of companions or familiars of any kind.



Huh.  I didn't expect them to have info on specific familiars, but I thought they'd have at least the basics of how familiars work.


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## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Aratargul said:


> is there info of milestone or they remove it???



Still there. Mentions some particular magic items often have greater power after reaching a milestone. Also gives example of rarely after an exceptionally difficult pair of encounters the DM might reward players with regaining a healing surge.


----------



## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

TikkchikFenTikktikk said:


> What does it say about skill challenges?



About 7 pages worth.

Since I am not up to speed on the latest errata on this, I can't tell you what may have changed.


----------



## SabreCat (Aug 31, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> Ugh. Is is just me, or does this quote-unquote definition simply add to the confusion?
> 
> An attack is:
> * an attack roll and its effects including damage
> ...



Probably not just you, but I think these issues can be puzzled out.

"Something to do with multiple attacks" is explaining how an "attack power" can actually produce more than one "attack" by the main definition given in the glossary entry (an attack roll and its effects).

Healing word isn't an attack because it isn't listed as an attack power. Everything that falls into the "no roll, but target" category of attacks has the word "Attack" in the power type. Magic Missile is "Wizard Attack" for example.


----------



## Neverfate (Aug 31, 2010)

vaultdweller said:


> Huh.  I didn't expect them to have info on specific familiars, but I thought they'd have at least the basics of how familiars work.




That does seem odd that it is missing. They only really needed to reprint the page that's in Arcane Powers.


----------



## Scribble (Aug 31, 2010)

vaultdweller said:


> Huh.  I didn't expect them to have info on specific familiars, but I thought they'd have at least the basics of how familiars work.






Neverfate said:


> That does seem odd that it is missing. They only really needed to reprint the page that's in Arcane Powers.




My guess (and this is only a guess since I don't have the book) is that this book contains the "underlying" rules that everyone uses, or potentially uses no matter whether it you're a player or DM or what class/race you are using.

Stuff that is more specific to a feat/power or class or race or something will be located in the source books that are more fitting.

You'll probably find the familiar rules in the player side essentials books.


----------



## Mand (Aug 31, 2010)

Would you mind checking the rules for damage types?  The rules for resistance, immunity, and vulnerability is up on Dragon already, but I'm hoping for some clarification on how damage types work, specifically summed versus combined damage types.


----------



## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Mand said:


> Would you mind checking the rules for damage types? The rules for resistance, immunity, and vulnerability is up on Dragon already, but I'm hoping for some clarification on how damage types work, specifically summed versus combined damage types.



Resistance ineffective versus combined damage types unless ressist to both types, then weakest of the resistances applies. Multiple resistances vs same damage type not cumulative, take the highest.


----------



## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Getting ready for work now. Book will be on view at the store. I should be able to answer more questions this evening, so keep them coming, just don't expect an immediate reply.


----------



## RangerWickett (Aug 31, 2010)

What page is 'page 42' on now? How have the damage values changed for improvised actions? The current versions seem somewhat weak, so it's seldom in a player's interest to try something creative instead of just using a power.


----------



## Mand (Aug 31, 2010)

thalmin said:


> Resistance ineffective versus combined damage types unless ressist to both types, then weakest of the resistances applies. Multiple resistances vs same damage type not cumulative, take the highest.




Thanks...but as I said that info is already up in the Dragon article.  I'm looking for anything describing how damage types work that isn't covered by resist/immune/vuln.


Specifically, if there's some explicit rule statement that describes how extra damage that is typed is handled.  If your power does 1d6+4 untyped damage, and you have +1d6 fire damage from e.g. the artificer power, how much of your attack is fire damage?


----------



## Joshua Randall (Aug 31, 2010)

How many pages do the rules for Stealth take up? (heh)


----------



## Scribble (Aug 31, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> How many pages do the rules for Stealth take up? (heh)




I wonder if they're hard to find...


----------



## Old Gumphrey (Aug 31, 2010)

*puts on viking hat*

Why don't you roll Perception, and find out?


----------



## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Mand said:


> Thanks...but as I said that info is already up in the Dragon article. I'm looking for anything describing how damage types work that isn't covered by resist/immune/vuln.
> 
> 
> Specifically, if there's some explicit rule statement that describes how extra damage that is typed is handled. If your power does 1d6+4 untyped damage, and you have +1d6 fire damage from e.g. the artificer power, how much of your attack is fire damage?



I do not find an answer to your question. It may be there.


----------



## thalmin (Aug 31, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> How many pages do the rules for Stealth take up? (heh)



2 pages


----------



## gribble (Sep 1, 2010)

Rituals - are they mentioned at all, or have they gone the way of the dodo in Essentials?


----------



## Phreddkroe (Sep 1, 2010)

Just wondering if, in the text surrounding the new parcel system, the book speaks to whether this is a replacement or an option, and if any alternatives are discussed. Thanks for the info!


----------



## froth (Sep 1, 2010)

does it say if uncommon items can be created anywhere or otherwise hint that it is possible to create an 'uncommon' item


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

gribble said:


> Rituals - are they mentioned at all, or have they gone the way of the dodo in Essentials?



They get a brief mention, should be in the Heroes books.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

Phreddkroe said:


> Just wondering if, in the text surrounding the new parcel system, the book speaks to whether this is a replacement or an option, and if any alternatives are discussed. Thanks for the info!



No mention that I found of any other system.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Sep 1, 2010)

Is there anything on power keywords such as Augmentable, Full Discipline, Invigorating, or Rattling?


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

Milky said:


> does it say if uncommon items can be created anywhere or otherwise hint that it is possible to create an 'uncommon' item



It says 







> Uncommon and Rare are not normally created in the current age of the world. These items were created in the distant past, some even during the Dawn War, and the techniques for their creation have been lost in time...



It says nothing else about their creation


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

Kobold Avenger said:


> Is there anything on power keywords such as Augmentable, Full Discipline, Invigorating, or Rattling?



All are mentioned and are in the Glossary.


----------



## Vael (Sep 1, 2010)

What about aquatic and aerial combat?


----------



## Siberys (Sep 1, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> How have the damage values changed for improvised actions?




I'm curious about this, too.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> What page is 'page 42' on now? How have the damage values changed for improvised actions? The current versions seem somewhat weak, so it's seldom in a player's interest to try something creative instead of just using a power.



Sorry to be so late getting back to you. Page 42 is in the current DMG, so I expect it will be in the DM set, same for improvised actions.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

Vael said:


> What about aquatic and aerial combat?



About a page on flying, but not aerial combat, just how flying creatures are affected. Also a paragraph on aerial terrain. A page on aquatic combat. Expect more in DM Kit.


----------



## YourSwordIsMine (Sep 1, 2010)

Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions.

I have a few myself.

What's broken and how long before we get the first errata?


----------



## Old Gumphrey (Sep 1, 2010)

YourSwordIsMine said:


> What's broken and how long before we get the first errata?


----------



## Zaran (Sep 1, 2010)

Scribble said:
			
		

> My guess (and this is only a guess since I don't have the book) is that this book contains the "underlying" rules that everyone uses, or potentially uses no matter whether it you're a player or DM or what class/race you are using.
> 
> Stuff that is more specific to a feat/power or class or race or something will be located in the source books that are more fitting.
> 
> You'll probably find the familiar rules in the player side essentials books.




I doubt those rules are in essentials at all. Im betting it's one of those things left for pre essentials books.  

So let's hope they keep supporting the old stuff. 

It bothers me that they only have random loot and not advice on keeping a per level value. The parcel list is one of the things you can't find on ddi


----------



## TirionAnthion (Sep 1, 2010)

My store, Mayhem Comics in Des Moines IA, was sent a preview copy of the RC, so I thought I would help answer some questions.



Mand said:


> Thanks...but as I said that info is already up in the Dragon article. I'm looking for anything describing how damage types work that isn't covered by resist/immune/vuln.
> 
> 
> Specifically, if there's some explicit rule statement that describes how extra damage that is typed is handled. If your power does 1d6+4 untyped damage, and you have +1d6 fire damage from e.g. the artificer power, how much of your attack is fire damage?




The book has a section on extra damage that states that extra damage is the same type as the attack it adds to unless the extra damage explicitly says it is different. To answer you question directly, only the +1d6 fire damage would be fire damage. The extra damage would not effect the rest of the damage.


----------



## TirionAnthion (Sep 1, 2010)

TikkchikFenTikktikk said:


> What does it say about skill challenges?




I like the skill challenge section. It does a good job of deconstructing a skill challenge. It breaks a skill challenge down into several parts:
1. The Goal
2. Level and DCs
3. Complexity
4. Primary and Secondary skills
5. Consequences

Each section takes a good look under the hood of a skill challenge. It talks about group checks. It also has a chart that lists Complexity -> Number of successes -> Advantages -> Typical DCs.

For example, a Complexity 1 challenge has 4 successes, no advantages, and 4 moderate DCs.

As the Complexity changes, so does the number of successes, advantages and ratio of moderate to hard DCs. A sidebar explains advantages and how they are used in a skill challenge. All in all, I think this section is very good. The section concludes with an example of play involving a skill challenge.

I hope this info helps clarify the issue.


----------



## TirionAnthion (Sep 1, 2010)

*Rules Compendium*

I run a game at my local store after hours. The game is limited to my friends and I. We used the RC book at the table tonight and I really liked it. It is a nice design that is easy to reference on the table. I found it to be thoroughly useful.

Just my thoughts after a night of actual play using the book.


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 1, 2010)

YourSwordIsMine said:


> Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions.
> 
> I have a few myself.
> 
> What's broken and how long before we get the first errata?





Now that Magic Missile is officially deemed an attack (since there was no roll, there was some debate about whether it was prior to this book,) I can think of a few ways to abuse an auto hit attack.

In particular, a multiclass fighter/wizard can now have an ability which marks from range and does damage without fail. It's not something which is insanely broken, but there are quite a few possible ways to make the auto damage from this hurt more even before having some of the fighter feats being available. Marked Scourge + Magic Missile is a nice combo


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 1, 2010)

TirionAnthion said:


> I like the skill challenge section. It does a good job of deconstructing a skill challenge. It breaks a skill challenge down into several parts:
> 1. The Goal
> 2. Level and DCs
> 3. Complexity
> ...



Are there new DCs, by the way?


----------



## Perun (Sep 1, 2010)

Eh, forget it...

(tried to make an argument while missing the important bit which completely made it just _wrong_)


----------



## Psikerlord# (Sep 1, 2010)

Have they by chance incorporated the expertise feats into some kind of automatic to-hit bonus in the level progression chart? Thanks for sharing dude


----------



## TarionzCousin (Sep 1, 2010)

TirionAnthion said:


> I run a game at my local store after hours. The game is limited to my friends and I. We used the RC book at the table tonight and I really liked it. It is a nice design that is easy to reference on the table. I found it to be thoroughly useful.
> 
> Just my thoughts after a night of actual play using the book.



Thanks for chiming in!

Would you (or Thalmin, or whomever else has the book already) need this book at the table for your next game? What if you left it at home and it was a 30-minute drive round-trip to get it? Would you delay the game to fetch this book?


----------



## fuzzlewump (Sep 1, 2010)

Johnny3D3D said:
			
		

> Now that Magic Missile is officially deemed an attack (since there was no roll, there was some debate about whether it was prior to this book,) I can think of a few ways to abuse an auto hit attack.
> 
> In particular, a multiclass fighter/wizard can now have an ability which marks from range and does damage without fail. It's not something which is insanely broken, but there are quite a few possible ways to make the auto damage from this hurt more even before having some of the fighter feats being available. Marked Scourge + Magic Missile is a nice combo




I'm doubting the usefulness to your standard optimized Kensei or pit fighter. The fighter has to jump through a few hoops to get such an ability more than once per encounter and the damage will be pitiful with no intelligence mod and no implement. And if the fighter invests in those I'm tossing more vote in the not broken category.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

TarionzCousin said:


> Thanks for chiming in!
> 
> Would you (or Thalmin, or whomever else has the book already) need this book at the table for your next game? What if you left it at home and it was a 30-minute drive round-trip to get it? Would you delay the game to fetch this book?



Would you delay the game if you left your PHB and DMG behind? This book consolidates the updated rules into one volume. It is not required if you have your PHB and DMG at the table, but it is handier.
For those starting out with the Essentials line, it is a must. For those of us with the PHB and DMG, as DM I would rather leave the earlier books behind and just bring the Compendium.


----------



## MrMyth (Sep 1, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> Ugh. Is is just me, or does this quote-unquote definition simply add to the confusion?
> 
> An attack is:
> * an attack roll and its effects including damage
> ...




Healing word doesn't count, by this definition, because it isn't "designated as an attack". Magic Missile is - it is a "Wizard Attack 1".

I'm not seeing any confusion. If it is an attack power that targets an enemy without making an attack roll, it still counts as making an attack. (Which, I'm pretty sure, is the common sense definition most have been using all along.)


----------



## MrMyth (Sep 1, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> What page is 'page 42' on now?




This was mentioned in one of the Essentials previews (for the DMs Kit), in which the designers were sad to mention that the skill table was no longer on page 42. The section it is in starts on page 101, and the actual chart on page 107. Source.



> Instead, on page 42 of the book in the new _Dungeon Master's Kit_, you’ll find the definitions of the evil and chaotic evil alignments. Make of that what you will.


----------



## Joshua Randall (Sep 1, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> I'm not seeing any confusion. If it is an attack power that targets an enemy without making an attack roll, it still counts as making an attack.




Definition: an attack is an attack power, its attack roll, and all effects including damage

Exception: it doesn't have to have an attack roll

So why define it that way to begin with?

I think this also leaves open some question. If a character use an ATTACK POWER to create a zone that does 5 damage to any creature that enters the zone (no attack roll), then when a creature enters the zone and takes damgage, does that count as an attack? 

If not, how is this any different than blasting something with magic missile?


----------



## UngeheuerLich (Sep 1, 2010)

You are targetting nothing.

It is like the rules for breaking invisibility in older dnd versions. If you directly do a targeted harmful effect on an enemy, you break invisibility. Its the intend of doing something harmful directly to an enemy. Healing word is no attack, and creating a wall of fire is no attack too, as it is not your fault if someone runs into it...

I just don´t get why everybody is so keen about breaking the rules now. If you wanted, you always could and will always be able to. Rules can never be written so that there is no wriggle room. If someone tries to find a hole, a hole will be found.


----------



## MrMyth (Sep 1, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> Definition: an attack is an attack power, its attack roll, and all effects including damage
> 
> Exception: it doesn't have to have an attack roll
> 
> So why define it that way to begin with?




Because 4E is an exception based system? I don't see any problems with them presenting the standard definition, and then clarifying that some exceptions exist. 



Joshua Randall said:


> I think this also leaves open some question. If a character use an ATTACK POWER to create a zone that does 5 damage to any creature that enters the zone (no attack roll), then when a creature enters the zone and takes damgage, does that count as an attack?




If the power targets anyone when it is used, it counts as an attack. If it simply creates a zone of dangerous energy, then it does not count as making an attack. Similarly, Rain of Steel does not count as making an attack. 



Joshua Randall said:


> If not, how is this any different than blasting something with magic missile?




Immediacy. I point at you and you instantly take damage - that is considered, by the system, to be making an attack. I create a zone of fire that will damage you when you walk through it - that does not count as making an attack. 

I'm not seeing any confusion. 
You are making an attack if you: 
-Make an attack roll, or
-Use an attack power that has a target. 

That seems pretty clear. I don't see any real potential for abuse. What clarification more do you need?


----------



## Joshua Randall (Sep 1, 2010)

OK, new question. (Tired of talking about attacks but still convinced this is not a tight enough definition.)

How many examples are there in the RC? Are there a whole bunch and they use them everywhere to illustrate rules? Are there so few that they stick out? Or... ?


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> OK, new question. (Tired of talking about attacks but still convinced this is not a tight enough definition.)
> 
> How many examples are there in the RC? Are there a whole bunch and they use them everywhere to illustrate rules? Are there so few that they stick out? Or... ?



They use examples frequently. Explain what a stat block is, show one. Trap stat block, show one. Skill check, example. Skill challenge, example. The book is loaded with them.


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 1, 2010)

fuzzlewump said:


> I'm doubting the usefulness to your standard optimized Kensei or pit fighter. The fighter has to jump through a few hoops to get such an ability more than once per encounter and the damage will be pitiful with no intelligence mod and no implement. And if the fighter invests in those I'm tossing more vote in the not broken category.





Actually, it's pretty easy to pick up the ability and use it more than once per encounter - half-elf.  That doesn't even require multiclassing; only choosing a race and one feat.  It's not going to be a ton of damage, but it's auto damage, marks the target, and can be used to trigger other nasty side effects which trigger from making a successful attack.

Also, it's possible to have your implement and weapon be the same item... 

I'm sure there are better ways to play around with this idea.  This is just scratching the surface from a limited knowledge of D&D.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

I know that bending the rules before even seeing them is a strong tradition for gamers (me too) could we please take such discussions to another thread, leaving this one open for general impressions and Q&A? Thanks.

edit: It just makes it easier to answer the questions folks have about the set.


----------



## Seeten (Sep 1, 2010)

*Hellish Rebuke*

There has been a lot of debate over Hellish Rebuke and I'm hoping the RC clarified Extra Damage. A lot of people think the Hellish Rebuke damage is extra damage, as the word extra appears in the text.

Others have the opinion that the time loop that would cause, damage done now, more damage added to that damage later, thats part of the original damage roll, causing attacks that happened to not happen would seem to indicate it is not extra damage.

Here is hoping this is clarified in the Compendium.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

Seeten said:


> There has been a lot of debate over Hellish Rebuke and I'm hoping the RC clarified Extra Damage. A lot of people think the Hellish Rebuke damage is extra damage, as the word extra appears in the text.
> 
> Others have the opinion that the time loop that would cause, damage done now, more damage added to that damage later, thats part of the original damage roll, causing attacks that happened to not happen would seem to indicate it is not extra damage.
> 
> Here is hoping this is clarified in the Compendium.



I don't have the book available right now, I will try to check this after I get to work, when I get the chance.

(My work schedule is kinda strange. Some days I work 9-6, others 2-11. Yay variety!)


----------



## Scribble (Sep 1, 2010)

Zaran said:


> I doubt those rules are in essentials at all. Im betting it's one of those things left for pre essentials books.
> 
> So let's hope they keep supporting the old stuff.
> 
> It bothers me that they only have random loot and not advice on keeping a per level value. The parcel list is one of the things you can't find on ddi




Why?  What makes you say that?

There is also a DM's guide that's part of the essentials line. I'm guessing the Parcel system is in there.

The random loot is good to have in the compendium so if you're at the table, you can use it to roll random loot.


----------



## Joshua Randall (Sep 1, 2010)

Any clarifications of whether *free actions *happen at "interrupt speed" or "reaction speed"?

Also, any rules for how long it takes to put on / take off equipment _other than _armor & shield? IIRC there are (were) no rules for this in 4e!


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

Seeten said:


> There has been a lot of debate over Hellish Rebuke and I'm hoping the RC clarified Extra Damage. A lot of people think the Hellish Rebuke damage is extra damage, as the word extra appears in the text.
> 
> Others have the opinion that the time loop that would cause, damage done now, more damage added to that damage later, thats part of the original damage roll, causing attacks that happened to not happen would seem to indicate it is not extra damage.
> 
> Here is hoping this is clarified in the Compendium.



It is not clarified here, but this might be handled in a more carefully worded description of Hellish Rebuke in the Heroes books.


----------



## Zaran (Sep 1, 2010)

Scribble said:


> Why? What makes you say that?
> 
> There is also a DM's guide that's part of the essentials line. I'm guessing the Parcel system is in there.
> 
> The random loot is good to have in the compendium so if you're at the table, you can use it to roll random loot.




That's a good point.  I guess I was thrown for a loop as to why a DM table was in that book and forgot there was a DM kit coming out as well.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 1, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> Any clarifications of whether *free actions *happen at "interrupt speed" or "reaction speed"?



Seems to say could be either, and would be specified in the power/ability.



> Also, any rules for how long it takes to put on / take off equipment _other than _armor & shield? IIRC there are (were) no rules for this in 4e!



Equipment isn't really covered in this book. I haven't found the answer to your question.


----------



## carmachu (Sep 2, 2010)

JohnSnow said:


> I think that is largely the point. An updated version that in no way invalidates what came before.
> 
> I freely admit Essentials is "a revision" to 4th Edition (the latest), but I don't think that makes it 4.5, because 4e has been continuously revised since its introduction. That somewhat begs the question: "With this model going forward, will there ever NEED to be a 5e?"
> 
> But I guess that's kinda off-topic.





Really? Did you still use your 3.0 PHB when the 3.5 came out after? Did you use the complete mage anymore after the complete arcane? And so on...


----------



## thalmin (Sep 2, 2010)

carmachu said:


> Really? Did you still use your 3.0 PHB when the 3.5 came out after? Did you use the complete mage anymore after the complete arcane? And so on...



I do not believe the Rules Compendium will help much whether you are playing 3.0 or 3.5. I think it will be useful for anyone playing 4E whether you are playing Essentials or not.


----------



## Eradan (Sep 2, 2010)

Just curious if the book is illustrated. I liked seeing the old Elmore illustrations in new red box.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 2, 2010)

Eradan said:


> Just curious if the book is illustrated. I liked seeing the old Elmore illustrations in new red box.



Lots of illustrations, but not every other page. Full page art to start each chapter plus a few other places, a lot of half-page and smaller about every 5 or 8 pages.


----------



## Vael (Sep 2, 2010)

So, now I have to ask, how's the art? Recycled pieces? Anything strike you as particularly good or bad?


----------



## thalmin (Sep 2, 2010)

Vael said:


> So, now I have to ask, how's the art? Recycled pieces? Anything strike you as particularly good or bad?



I like the art but have to admit I don't usually notice it, so I have no idea whether or not it is recycled.


----------



## Feeroper (Sep 2, 2010)

Anything regarding rituals in the RC?


----------



## thalmin (Sep 2, 2010)

Feeroper said:


> Anything regarding rituals in the RC?



It explains what rituals are.


----------



## Marshall (Sep 3, 2010)

thalmin said:


> What about them?
> It does say some weapons can be used as implements, proficiency required to use as weapon, separate proficiency required to use as implement.




Since this still hasn't been answered yet, I thought I'd clarify. 

How does implement proficiency work? Is Implement Proficiency good for all powers or just the powers of the classes that are prof with that implement?


----------



## nnms (Sep 3, 2010)

Marshall said:


> Since this still hasn't been answered yet, I thought I'd clarify.
> 
> How does implement proficiency work? Is Implement Proficiency good for all powers or just the powers of the classes that are prof with that implement?




This was clarified in the August 9th Countdown article by Mike Mearls:



> Implements
> 
> Going forward, the Dungeons & Dragons game will feature a system of proficiency with implements that works just like weapon proficiencies. If you are proficient with an implement, you can use it with any of your implement powers. It doesn’t matter where that power comes from—a paragon path, a different class, a new build, whatever—you can use any implement that you’re proficient with to use your power.
> 
> Previously, a power’s class determined the implements that could function with it. This change was made to make it easier to understand how implements interact with powers and to make multiclassing less arduous.


----------



## AbdulAlhazred (Sep 3, 2010)

nnms said:


> This was clarified in the August 9th Countdown article by Mike Mearls:




Sure, but in all fairness this is FAR from being an explanation. It is a good statement of the intent of whatever the change is, but it by no means answers how the mechanics actually work. 

I'd very much like to hear how the actual rules text explains it.


----------



## nnms (Sep 3, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Sure, but in all fairness this is FAR from being an explanation. It is a good statement of the intent of whatever the change is, but it by no means answers how the mechanics actually work.
> 
> I'd very much like to hear how the actual rules text explains it.




Sure.  I still think "If you are proficient with an implement, you can use it with any of your implement powers." is pretty damn clear.


----------



## TirionAnthion (Sep 3, 2010)

*Implements*

The RC talks about implements on p274. It states that implements do not grant a proficiency bonus. An adventurer must have proficiency with an implement to use it. Implements are used with powers that have the implement keyword. The text goes on to talk about implement groups. The book also has a sidebar explaining weapon as implements and implements as weapons.

The book does not talk about specifiic powers, as that is covered in the Players books that are coming out.

The Implement groups section talks about the different kinds of implements and who generally uses them. It also has some special rules such as using a staff as a weapon and that holy symbols can be held or worn when used (the rules state that other implements must be held). 

Essentially, (sorry) the text states that implements are used with implement powers in the same way that weapons are used with weapon powers. 

The text seems ambiguous when first read, but that is because I am bringing in preconceived ideas about how implements work based on previous experience. When reading many of the rules in the RC, it is important to read them with fresh eyes, do not make assumptions on how things work based on  how they worked previously. As a great puppet once said, "You must unlearn what you have learned."

Hope that helps to clarify.


----------



## UngeheuerLich (Sep 3, 2010)

So i guess we get a simple "implement proficiency" now. Superior implement training is worded in a way, that this feat would not be redundant.


----------



## UngeheuerLich (Sep 3, 2010)

Something about melee basic attacks with some weapons beeing used with dexterity?


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## mudbunny (Sep 3, 2010)

For what its worth, and for those looking for info on how it was used around a table, WolfStar76, on the WotC community site, has poasted a blog about his experience with it and the experience of his group.

A night with the Essentials Rules Compendium


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## fjw70 (Sep 3, 2010)

I want to thank Thalmin for all the info he has given in this thread.

I wish you had gotten the HotFL instead.  No one with that book seems to be talking and that is the book with the most new info by far.


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## MrMyth (Sep 3, 2010)

fjw70 said:


> I want to thank Thalmin for all the info he has given in this thread.
> 
> I wish you had gotten the HotFL instead. No one with that book seems to be talking and that is the book with the most new info by far.




There's some info from over at rpg.net: Link.


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## thalmin (Sep 3, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> There's some info from over at rpg.net: Link.



Unfortunately, it seems the OP of that thread has not answered any questions about the content (as of about 5 minutes ago). The questions that were answered were sources other than HotFL. Hopefully we won't have to wait until the book hits the shelves next friday for some info.


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## Fiery James (Sep 3, 2010)

I've got HotFL; it's at home and I've only given it a quick read-through so far, but if anyone has general questions...

I didn't see any rituals in the book at all, or any rules for multi-classing or hybrids.  Not in there.  Rituals may have had a small part in the Mage write up, but if so, there will only be a handful of rituals.  But I think they aren't there.

No tieflings, half-elves, dragonborn.

For Humans, no alternative to the Racial power - just the retroactive bonus (ie, no suggestion of an additional at-will).

I think each class gets one paragon path and one epic destiny.

No magic items that I can remember.


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## Scribble (Sep 3, 2010)

No multi-classing?

That's sure to cause a bunch of screaming...


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## Fiery James (Sep 3, 2010)

Scribble said:


> No multi-classing?
> 
> That's sure to cause a bunch of screaming...




Not that I can remember, unless it's hidden in some other part.  The book is pretty much:  Here's a class and a bit about it, including what races would be good here and alignment and weapons (with a couple of ideal options for each, more suggestions than "pick one of these"), then the Heroic tier, Paragon tier and Epic Tier... and then the next class.  No multi-class feats that I saw, no hybrid rules for sure.


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## Scribble (Sep 3, 2010)

Fiery James said:


> Not that I can remember, unless it's hidden in some other part.  The book is pretty much:  Here's a class and a bit about it, including what races would be good here and alignment and weapons (with a couple of ideal options for each, more suggestions than "pick one of these"), then the Heroic tier, Paragon tier and Epic Tier... and then the next class.  No multi-class feats that I saw, no hybrid rules for sure.




Well- I guess the ordinary multiclass feats would work, for those that have swappable powers at least...


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## fjw70 (Sep 3, 2010)

Fiery James said:


> I've got HotFL; it's at home and I've only given it a quick read-through so far, but if anyone has general questions...
> 
> I didn't see any rituals in the book at all, or any rules for multi-classing or hybrids.  Not in there.  Rituals may have had a small part in the Mage write up, but if so, there will only be a handful of rituals.  But I think they aren't there.
> 
> ...






Thanks.

What I really want to know is what the powers are that the martial classes( I.e. Knight, slayer, and thief) get after 1st level (and the 1st level battle guardian knight power). As much detail as possible Is appreciated.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 3, 2010)

Maybe rituals and multiclassing will appear in the second book.

The other possibility was that both books have the same feats in it, and can be used independently.
We just don´t know, and i am not too sad about that. This will in fact support the "no 4.5" stance, as essentials is really only a part of the full rules. Those who want all of them (in written form) need to buy the core books.

Heroes of the... books just went a little down on my "must get" list. I just need to have a look inside to see if it is worth buying.


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## fjw70 (Sep 3, 2010)

thalmin said:


> Unfortunately, it seems the OP of that thread has not answered any questions about the content (as of about 5 minutes ago). The questions that were answered were sources other than HotFL. Hopefully we won't have to wait until the book hits the shelves next friday for some info.




Someone else has now come to that thread and started giving some info.


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## Scribble (Sep 3, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Maybe rituals and multiclassing will appear in the second book.
> 
> The other possibility was that both books have the same feats in it, and can be used independently.
> We just don´t know, and i am not too sad about that. This will in fact support the "no 4.5" stance, as essentials is really only a part of the full rules. Those who want all of them (in written form) need to buy the core books.
> ...




I kind of figured this would be the case (that the fear would die down after the release...)

Mike Mearls does a really good job at kind of explaining things in the most recent podcast...

4e is really a very small subset of core rules, on top of which a bunch of "optional" rules are layered.

All classes are basically "optional" rules you can swap in and out as you see fit...  Essentials I think is just the beginning of what the system is capable of doing.

Which I think is insanely awesome.


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## Fiery_Dragon (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm going to start a new thread for the Heroes book, 'cause I *don't* have the Rules Compendium and I really like the info here and don't want to muck it up.

- JB


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## thalmin (Sep 3, 2010)

Fiery_Dragon said:


> I'm going to start a new thread for the Heroes book, 'cause I *don't* have the Rules Compendium and I really like the info here and don't want to muck it up.
> 
> - JB



This can be found here.


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## vagabundo (Sep 9, 2010)

Do you have any pic's? Maybe in comparison to a standard hardback?


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## Aegeri (Sep 10, 2010)

Hey Thalmin a new really important question: On readying an action, does the readied action provoke an attack of opportunity when you ready it? I've heard this claimed by a couple of people now and would love confirmation on this.

Basically it prevents a ranged character readying an action to attack a melee creature on its turn to avoid an AoO.


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## thalmin (Sep 10, 2010)

Aegeri said:


> Hey Thalmin a new really important question: On readying an action, does the readied action provoke an attack of opportunity when you ready it? I've heard this claimed by a couple of people now and would love confirmation on this.
> 
> Basically it prevents a ranged character readying an action to attack a melee creature on its turn to avoid an AoO.



In the subsection on Ready an Action (p247) there is a heading Triggering Opportunity Actions.


> If a creature readies an action that normally provokes opportunity actions, it triggers them twice: when it readies the action and when it takes the action.
> _Example_: If an adventurer readies a ranged attack while adjacent to an enemy, he provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy. If he is still adjacent to an enemy when he makes the ranged attack, he provokes an opportunity attack again.


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## Aegeri (Sep 10, 2010)

That is an absolutely _huge_ rules change.


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## Vael (Sep 10, 2010)

Is it? I hadn't even thought about it, I don't think I've seen it ever come up, and I can't recall if there'd been a previous ruling on the matter.


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## Amy Kou'ai (Sep 10, 2010)

Query: How are higher-level characters created, taking into account the new magic item rarity rules?


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## thalmin (Sep 10, 2010)

Amy Kou'ai said:


> Query: How are higher-level characters created, taking into account the new magic item rarity rules?



I see nothing for creating higher-level characters, but expect that will be covered in the DM set.


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## Aegeri (Sep 10, 2010)

I wish I could give you more XP Thalmin, you have set my wee heart at ease answering that.


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## MrMyth (Sep 13, 2010)

Vael said:


> Is it? I hadn't even thought about it, I don't think I've seen it ever come up, and I can't recall if there'd been a previous ruling on the matter.




It's the sorta thing that will probably be a big change in groups that previously abused readied actions, but almost completely unnoticed for everyone else. 

Previously, the big 'trick' was to ready actions to happen on an opponent's turn. Since you can't take OAs on your own turn, that meant the archer could shoot a fighter in the face with no problems, as long as he did so on the fighter's turn. 

This change fixes that. 

What I find most interesting about it is that it emphasizes that a readied action needs to be relatively specific. You can't "ready to do something when someone walks through the door". You have to specifically be readying a ranged attack or at least have enough specifics to know whether your action is provoking or not. And that, also, I think is a good thing.


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## nookiemonster (Sep 17, 2010)

I think it's very ironic that Thalmin's forum rank is "Troll" when he's clearly not a 'net troll at all


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## Dice4Hire (Sep 17, 2010)

I wantto be a troll, too, as I am a lowly harpy now.

Which does fit my posting style, at least according to some.....


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## SabreCat (Sep 17, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> What I find most interesting about it is that it emphasizes that a readied action needs to be relatively specific. You can't "ready to do something when someone walks through the door". You have to specifically be readying a ranged attack or at least have enough specifics to know whether your action is provoking or not. And that, also, I think is a good thing.



I don't think that's anything new. "Choose Action to Ready: Choose the specific action you are readying  (what attack you plan to use, for example) as well as your intended  target." I don't have my PHB at hand, but I think it's been like that from the first printing.


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## Aegeri (Sep 18, 2010)

SabreCat said:


> I don't think that's anything new. "Choose Action to Ready: Choose the specific action you are readying  (what attack you plan to use, for example) as well as your intended  target." I don't have my PHB at hand, but I think it's been like that from the first printing.




Yeah, it's always been like that and it's one of 4Es most commonly overlooked rules.


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## Jack99 (Sep 18, 2010)

nm, I am tired, misread.


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## TheClone (Jun 21, 2011)

Can any of you guys tell me whether the "damage by level" table is inside the rules compendium? As far as I found out the DC by level has made it, right?


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## Dice4Hire (Jun 21, 2011)

TheClone said:


> Can any of you guys tell me whether the "damage by level" table is inside the rules compendium? As far as I found out the DC by level has made it, right?




I will tell you nothing evil necromancer. I will never give in to evil....


Well, actually as to your question, I do not know.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Jun 21, 2011)

There is no such table in the RC, nor any mention of either monster design or 'page 42'. The RC (mostly) tends to stick to describing only the 'closed' sections of the rules which don't require interpretation (IE the parts which aren't guidelines). Anything that relates to purely DM preparation type stuff is going to be only in the DM's Kit. Guidelines like "page 42" are also likely to be found there. Presumably this is not a 'rule' but a framework and set of guidelines for the DM to use. Now, why the rules for skill challenges are in the RC and page 42 isn't? Beats me...


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## Zaran (Jun 21, 2011)

AbdulAlhazred said:
			
		

> There is no such table in the RC, nor any mention of either monster design or 'page 42'. The RC (mostly) tends to stick to describing only the 'closed' sections of the rules which don't require interpretation (IE the parts which aren't guidelines). Anything that relates to purely DM preparation type stuff is going to be only in the DM's Kit. Guidelines like "page 42" are also likely to be found there. Presumably this is not a 'rule' but a framework and set of guidelines for the DM to use. Now, why the rules for skill challenges are in the RC and page 42 isn't? Beats me...




Maybe they needed to pad it out.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Jun 21, 2011)

Zaran said:


> Maybe they needed to pad it out.



Yeah, it is hard to say. I could have suggested plenty of other thing that they could have padded it out with, like say the general Ritual Casting rules (true they are not really utilized by Essentials classes, but plenty of other non-Essentials stuff is at least defined in the RC).

I'd guess though it is basically one of those things. You have a bunch of people working on several books, with several ideas of what should be in which one, and a different team/editor in charge of each one, plus page count juggling, etc. Things are never perfectly logical.


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## Saracenus (Jun 22, 2011)

TheClone said:


> Can any of you guys tell me whether the "damage by level" table is inside the rules compendium? As far as I found out the DC by level has made it, right?




Actually, the table you are looking for is in the Essentials Dungeon Master's Book, page 108, from the Dungeon Master's Kit.

You can also find it on the deluxe DM screen.


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