# Gygaxian Monsters



## Griffith Dragonlake (Oct 4, 2007)

Just for fun, I thought I'd write up a list of monsters that as far as I can tell were created by Gygax and not borrowed from another source.  Using this criteria, rust monsters are in (inspired by a cheap plastic toy) but the gorgon is out (the bull form appears in a late Medieval bestiary).

Aerial Servant [AD&D MM Gygax]
Ankheg, The [The Dragon # 5 Gygax]
Beholder [Greyhawk Terry Kuntz]
Black (or Gray) Pudding [OD&D Gygax & Arneson]
Bllink Dog [Greyhawk Gygax & Kuntz]
Brain Mole [Eldritch Wizardry Gygax & Blume]
Bugbear (the pumpkin-headed one)
Bulette [The Dragon # 1 Gygax]
Carrion Crawler [Greyhawk Gygax & Kuntz]
Cerebral Parasite [Eldritch Wizardry Gygax & Blume]
Chromatic Dragon [Greyhawk Gygax & Kuntz]
Displacer Beast [Greyhawk Gygax & Kuntz; inspired by A.E. van Gogt's the coeurl in Voyage of the Space Beagle]
Dragonne [AD&D MM Gygax]
Drow [AD&D MM Gygax]
Ear Seeker [AD&D MM Gygax]
Fungi, Violet [AD&D MM Gygax]
Gas Spore [AD&D MM Gygax]
Gelatinous Cube [Greyhawk Gygax & Kuntz]
Ghast [AD&D MM Gygax]
Gnoll [OD&D Name from Lord Dunsany; Hyena description added in AD&D MM]
Gray Ooze [OD&D Gygax & Arneson]
Green Slime [OD&D Gygax & Arneson]
Intellect Devourer [Eldritch Wizardry Gygax & Blume]
Invisible Stalker [OD&D  Gygax & Arneson]
Kuo-Toa
Lammasu [Based on mythical lamassu]
Leucrotta [From Pliny's Natural History]
Lich [Greyhawk Gygax & Kuntz]
Lurker Above, The [The Strategic Review # 3 Gygax]
Mimic [AD&D MM Gygax]
Mind Flayer [The Strategic Review # 1 Gygax]
Neo-Otyugh [AD&D MM Gygax]
Ochre Jelly [OD&D Gygax & Arneson]
Ogre Mage [Greyhawk "more properly Japanese Ogres"]
Otyugh [AD&D MM Gygax]
Owlbear [Greyhawk Gygax & Kuntz]
Phase Spider [Greyhawk Gygax & Kuntz]
Piercer, The [The Strategic Review # 3 Gygax]
Pseudo-Dragon [AD&D MM Gygax]
Purple Worm [OD&D Gygax & Arneson]
Quasit [AD&D MM Gygax]
Remorhaz, The [The Dragon # 2 Gygax]
Roper [The Stategic Review # 2 Gygax]
Rot Grub [AD&D MM Gygax]
Rust Monster [Greyhawk Gygax & Kuntz]
Sahuagin [Blackmoor Arneson]
Shambling Mound, The [The Strategic Review # 3 Gygax]
Shrieker, The [The Strategic Review # 3 Gygax]
Slithering Tracker, The [The Strategic Review # 5 Gygax]
Stirge [possibly derived from the Roman owl-like nightbird striga]
Su-Monster [Eldritch Wizardry Gygax & Blume]
Thought Eater [Eldritch Wizardry Gygax & Blume]
Thoul [OD&D Gygax & Arneson undocumented 7HD]
Trapper, The [The Strategic Review # 5 Gygax]
Troglodyte [AD&D MM Gygax]
Troll (Gygax version) [Poul Anderson actually]
Type I Demon [Eldritch Wizardry Gygax & Blume]
Type II Demon [Eldritch Wizardry Gygax & Blume]
Type III Demon [Eldritch Wizardry Gygax & Blume]
Type IV Demon [Eldritch Wizardry Gygax & Blume]
Umber Hulk [Greyhawk Gygax & Kuntz]
Xorn [AD&D MM Gygax]
Yellow Mold [OD&D Gygax & Arneson]


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## kenobi65 (Oct 4, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Lammasu




Mesopotamian mythology.



			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Leucrotta




Indian or Ethiopian mythology 



			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Troll [Gygax version]




Generally considered to have been taken, whole cloth, from "Three Hearts and Three Lions", by Poul Anderson.


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## palleomortis (Oct 4, 2007)

Troglodyte?, really? Hmm, thought that was a common old school beast, didn't realize it had roots there, cool.

But now, how many did J.R. Tolkin invent?!?  

(D&D was inspired and provocted by LOTR, wasn't it?)


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## Glyfair (Oct 4, 2007)

Lammasu is from the Mesopotamian mythos.

Shambling Mound is a pretty direct copy of Marvel comics Man Thing, even down to the nose in the original Monster Manual picture (although it's somewhat more like the Swamp Thing & the Heap, because it lacks to "whoever knows fear burns at its touch" of the Man Thing)..

Ogre Mages are the japanese Oni under another name.


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## kenobi65 (Oct 4, 2007)

palleomortis said:
			
		

> Troglodyte?, really? Hmm, thought that was a common old school beast, didn't realize it had roots there, cool.




The term is old; the D&D expression of the monster may be novel.



			
				palleomortis said:
			
		

> (D&D was inspired and provocted by LOTR, wasn't it?)




In part, but only in part (and many, including EGG himself, have argued that it wasn't a major inspiration).  The magic system owes to Jack Vance and L. Sprague de Camp, and the influences of other authors such as Robert E. Howard, Fritz Lieber, Michael Moorcock, and Poul Anderson, among *many* others, can also be seen.

There's a bibliography in the back of the 1E DMG that lists these authors, among others, as "inspirational reading".


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## GlassEye (Oct 4, 2007)

Ogre Mage = Oni

Drow = Svartalfar


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## Abraxas (Oct 4, 2007)

Black Pudding = The Blob (1958 movie monster)
Ghast - may be derived from creatures in H.P. Lovecraft's "Dreamlands" - got this from wikipedia, am going to look up the reference when I get home to my lovecraft collection


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## T. Foster (Oct 4, 2007)

Beholder -- invented by Terry Kuntz
Black Pudding -- invented by Dave Arneson (inspired by _The Blob_)
Sahuagin -- invented by Steve Marsh


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## Scylla (Oct 4, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Stirge




This was based on the Strix (of Roman mythology).


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## rossik (Oct 4, 2007)

so, no update from the OP?


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## Huw (Oct 4, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Lammasu



Sumerian mythology, along with the shedu and Tiamat (in name if not form).



			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Leucrotta



African mythology. Basically a hyena.



			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Remorhaz



Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter. I found this interesting site. Here's the relevant blurb:


> It is unclear if Remora is another Ice Worm, older and deceased, or if it is the same Ice Worm, they seemed slightly different.
> On the cover, the Ice Worm is painted as breathing fire. In the issue nothing let think that the Worm could do this, I suppose it is an error, and that the Worm emitted only extreme cold, not warm or fire. In the original novel by Carter and De Camp, the Ice Worm is described: "Its boneless form was covered with the silken nap of thick white fur. Its mouth was merely a jawless, circular opening, now puckered and closed. Above the mouth, the two luminous orbs gleamed out of a smooth, rounded, featureless eel-like head.".






			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Stirge



Greek mythology, but in a very different form. The Greek ones were a lot bigger.

Possibly Gygaxian:
Chimera (winged version)
Dragons (colour coded)
Manticore (winged version)


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 5, 2007)

Displacer beasts were inspired by the coeurl in _Voyage of the Space Beagle_, by A. E. Van Vogt.

Mind flayers were inspired by the cover illustraton of _The Burrowers Beneath_, by Brian Lumley.

Kuo-toa were inspired by the Deep Ones of H.P. Lovecraft. Likewise, ghasts appear in Lovecraft's _The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath_ as degenerate human-like monsters that war sporadically with the ghouls.

Lord Dunsany wrote of "gnoles", which had little to do physically with the modern gnoll, but is almost certainly where the name came from.

Demiurge out.


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## pawsplay (Oct 5, 2007)

Bugbear (the pumpkin-headed one) - Hm, is this the origin of of jack-o-bears or vice versa?

Pseudo-Dragon - seriously? Pick a fantasy poster of your choice

Quasit - a renamed Quisling, from a word derived from an infamous name


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## The Green Adam (Oct 5, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Bugbear (the pumpkin-headed one)




Bugbear was a general term for a goblin or bogie in various parts of England. At one point it was used to describe big, hairy goblins not unlike the germanic Trolls.




			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Displacer Beast




This one is very curious. While it definitely has SF roots, Asian mythology, specifically Chinese and Japanese, does depict a Creature that looks remarkably similar to the original MM drawing of the Displacer Beast. One the cover of the first Dirty Pair novel, the Sci-Fi/Spy adventure duo's pet Mughi appears to be a Displacer Beast, unlike his TV incarnation are a dark purple, cat-like bear. Whether this is a nod to folklore or Von Vogt I couldn't say.




			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Dragonne




Fan of Asian mythology that I am I must assume the Dragonne was inspired by the 'Foo Dogs' or 'Foo Lions', gargoyle-like statues that guarded palaces and temples throughout Asia. The creature shown often resembled a combination of a dragon, a lion and a dog.



			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Gnoll




As mentioned the Gnoll probably came from the Gnole or a variation of troll described in Norweigan and Finish mythology as 'wolf-like'.

Just a few off the top of my head. Need rest or coffee for more.

AD


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## Tonguez (Oct 5, 2007)

Ankheg
Beholder
Black Pudding
Bllink Dog
Bugbear (the pumpkin-headed one)
Bulette
Displacer Beast
Dragonne
Drow
Gelatinous Cube
Ghast
Gnoll
Gray Ooze
Green Slime
Kuo-Toa
Lammasu
Leucrotta
Lurker Above
Mimic
Mind Flayer
Neo-Otyugh
Ochre Jelly
Ogre Mage
Otyugh
Owlbear
Pseudo-Dragon
Purple Worm
Quasit
Remorhaz
Roper
Rust Monster
Sahuagin
Shambling Mound
Shrieker
Stirge
Trapper
Troglodyte
Troll [Gygax version]
Umber Hulk
Xorn
Yellow Mold


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## Thurbane (Oct 5, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Using this criteria, rust monsters are in (inspired by a cheap plastic toy) but the gorgon is out (the bull form appears in a late Medieval bestiary).



The toy in question


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## Arcturion (Oct 5, 2007)

The Green Adam said:
			
		

> Dragonne
> 
> Fan of Asian mythology that I am I must assume the Dragonne was inspired by the 'Foo Dogs' or 'Foo Lions', gargoyle-like statues that guarded palaces and temples throughout Asia. The creature shown often resembled a combination of a dragon, a lion and a dog.





Shi shi lion dogs, to be exact. They're all over the place here on Okinawa, and almost always encountered in pairs (one male, one female). A peculiar combination of lion, dragon, and dog, which is strange considering that lions are not native to Japan nor Okinawa. Definitely an influence of Chinese and Korean mythologies mixing with Japanese as Okinawa/Ryukyu Island(s) was an independent sovereign up until fairly recently, and served as a focal point of trade between all three countries and more besides (Thailand, etc.).

I actually haven't thought of shi shi as being dragonne before but now that I think more about it, it does make some sense (minus the wings and adding in a more dog-like tail). For some reason the desert climates favored by dragonne brought to mind some sort of Arabian or ancient Babylonian/Mesopotamian/Sumerian vibe to me. Must be a subconscious thing as I selected a dragonne as a cohort/mount for a DMPC, heh.


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## Griffith Dragonlake (Oct 5, 2007)

The Green Adam said:
			
		

> Fan of Asian mythology that I am I must assume the Dragonne was inspired by the 'Foo Dogs' or 'Foo Lions', gargoyle-like statues that guarded palaces and temples throughout Asia. The creature shown often resembled a combination of a dragon, a lion and a dog.



Except that Foo Creatures appear in the Monster Manual II.


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## Griffith Dragonlake (Oct 5, 2007)

GlassEye said:
			
		

> Drow = Svartalfar



Except that Snorri Sturlasson's description had nothing about Svartalfr having some characteristics of black widow spiders, e.g. females larger and more powerful than males and worshipping a black widow spider-goddess.  Or shooting hand crossbows for that matter. In addition, many scholars maintain that Svartalfr were just another name for the Dvergr.


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## Griffith Dragonlake (Oct 5, 2007)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> Black Pudding -- invented by Dave Arneson (inspired by _The Blob_)
> Sahuagin -- invented by Steve Marsh



Source?


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## Griffith Dragonlake (Oct 5, 2007)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Quasit - a renamed Quisling, from a word derived from an infamous name



Source?


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## Gentlegamer (Oct 5, 2007)

Though it's not on your list, the Water Weird was created by Ernie Gygax.


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## Gentlegamer (Oct 5, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Except that Snorri Sturlasson's description had nothing about Svartalfr having some characteristics of black widow spiders, e.g. females larger and more powerful than males and worshipping a black widow spider-goddess.  Or shooting hand crossbows for that matter. In addition, many scholars maintain that Svartalfr were just another name for the Dvergr.



Gygax created the details of the AD&D version, which is pretty unique, but dark elves had their inspirational roots in that source, which, as you note, also served as inspiration for the derro dwarves.


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## Glyfair (Oct 5, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Source?




The wikipedia article on sahuagin mentions they were created by Steve Marsh (and where he got the idea from).


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## T. Foster (Oct 5, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Source?



Sahuagin
Black Pudding (6th paragraph) 2


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## GlassEye (Oct 5, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Except that Snorri Sturlasson's description had nothing about Svartalfr having some characteristics of black widow spiders, e.g. females larger and more powerful than males and worshipping a black widow spider-goddess.  Or shooting hand crossbows for that matter. In addition, many scholars maintain that Svartalfr were just another name for the Dvergr.




That's all true.  However, Snorri Sturlasson does describe dark elves who live underground and have a nature different than the light elves.  So sure, Mr. Gygax created some additional detail but the basic idea was already there.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 5, 2007)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> Gygax created the details of the AD&D version, which is pretty unique, but dark elves had their inspirational roots in that source, which, as you note, also served as inspiration for the derro dwarves.



Duergar. The derro are part of the "Shaver Mystery" mythos of 1940's serial fiction.

Demiurge out.


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## pawsplay (Oct 5, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Source?




Main Entry: quis·ling 
Pronunciation: 'kwiz-li[ng]
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Vidkun Quisling died 1945 Norwegian politician who collaborated with the Nazis
: TRAITOR 2, : COLLABORATOR 
- quis·ling·ism  /-li[ng]-"i-z&m/ noun


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## cwhs01 (Oct 5, 2007)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Main Entry: quis·ling
> Pronunciation: 'kwiz-li[ng]
> Function: noun
> Usage: often attributive
> ...





My guess is that quasit was derived from the prefix quasi (meaning "similar to..." or "to some degree..."). a fire-quasit would be a creature related to the element of fire.


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## Huw (Oct 5, 2007)

More suggestions



			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Ear Seeker [AD&D MM Gygax]



Earwig from folklore. They were rumoured to crawl into peoples ears and lay eggs.



			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Stirge [possibly derived from the Roman owl-like nightbird striga]



Found more info here. The term variously means "owl", "vampire" and "witch", and is all over Eastern Europe.



			
				Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Su-Monster [Eldritch Wizardry Gygax & Blume]



I thought they were from mesoamerican mythology? I'm sure I read an account of a creature with a prehenisle tail called "su" which carried its young on its back, and was so fierce that it would eat the young rather than allow them to be captured. If I find the reference I'll get back to you.


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## Valiant (Oct 5, 2007)

There is a 1968 Sci-Fi movie called "Green Slime" that was certainly the basis for Gygax's green slime.


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## T. Foster (Oct 5, 2007)

The D&D lich comes from the character Afgorkon in Gardner Fox's "Kothar" stories  -- see this old post in which I quote that character's first appearance.


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## Raven Crowking (Oct 5, 2007)

I think that you can cross the Su-Monster off your list as well, as I believe it was derived from a Patagonian cryptid.  Tough to find information on now, but http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/chupa-1951/ carries a small reference.  I've seen woodcuts of the "Su" in a Daniel Cohen book, and they look alot like the 1e rendition.

RC

EDIT:  Another reference:  http://books.google.com/books?id=oK...Dwje3&sig=Wp10umV71wUu8ezd44CkCZzU6-k#PPP1,M1

And here's a picture on a T-Shirt:  http://www.cafepress.com/scryptoart.102552833


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 5, 2007)

All of the monsters in question are unique to AD&D, and as I wrote virtually all of their stats and descriptions they are in fact my creative products, not the IP of WotC. That's a FWIW.

While a few of the critters in questions are purely products of my own imagination--carrion crawler, gelatinous cube, roper for instance--there were many sources of inspiration for the majority of the monsters, and I will name a few:

Drow: A listing in the _Funk & Wagnall's Unexpurgated Dictionary,_ and no other source at all. I wanted a most unusual race as the main power in the Underdark, so used the reference to "dark elves" from the dictionary to create the Drow. (And nary a one has crow's feet).

Troll: "The Three Billygoats Gruff" where the Great Ugly Troll has a nose as long as a poker and _Three Hearts & Three Lions_ most assuredly.

Ogre Magi: _General Raiko and the Ogres of O-E-Yama,_ a beautifully illustrated children's book translated into English from Japanese.

Shambling Mound: Strictly from "The Heap" in _Airboy_ Comics, of which I was a great fan.

Displacer Beast: From A.E. van _Voght's Voyage of the Space Beagle._

Kuo-Toa: These were not inspired by any particular literary source but made up out of whole cloth by me.

Bugbear: The name comes from folklore, but the remainder is my creation. When I told the artist that it had "like a pumnpkin" he took it literally rather than as figurative for a large, oval head.

Lich: Right on in regards to Gardner Fox. Gar and his wife Linda were friends of mine.

If anyone reading this thresd has specific questions I'll be happy to answer them.

Cheers,
Gary


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## rossik (Oct 5, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> If anyone reading this thresd has specific questions I'll be happy to answer them.
> 
> Cheers,
> Gary




oh, me! me! me!

gary, what about the dragons?
i mena, what about the diferent colors (and a "personality" to each color)?


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 5, 2007)

rossik said:
			
		

> oh, me! me! me!
> 
> gary, what about the dragons?
> i mena, what about the diferent colors (and a "personality" to each color)?



 

Sure!

One always read about dragons of various hues beside the standare red sort, and the illustrations of European and certainly Oriental dragons showed greemn blue, etc. ones. So to liven up the species I tried to come up with a breath weapon that matched the color. thus blue dragons spat lightning, green ones clouds of chlorine gas, black ones acid, and white drakes icey cold. I didn't do any other colors because those attack forms covered the gamut of what malign dragons would have for such attack I thought. The metallic Oriental ones being benign in most part according to their mythology rated the doiferent sorts of breath weapons I dreamed up for them.

Cheerio,
Gary


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## Zander (Oct 5, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> If anyone reading this thresd has specific questions I'll be happy to answer them.



Hello, Gary   

Can I please ask you about some other AD&D creatures? I'm particularly curious to know if gnomes in the game were inspired, at least in part, by the character called Hugi from _Three Hearts and Three Lions_. I know that Anderson calls him a "dwarf" at one point but it seems that in several other ways the character has an uncanny resemblance to the AD&D gnome.

Also, were the AD&D swanmay and nixie inspired by _Three Hearts and Three Lions_?

Many thanks,

Zander


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 5, 2007)

Zander said:
			
		

> Hello, Gary
> 
> Can I please ask you about some other AD&D creatures? I'm particularly curious to know if gnomes in the game were inspired, at least in part, by the character called Hugi from _Three Hearts and Three Lions_. I know that Anderson calls him a "dwarf" at one point but it seems that in several other ways the character has an uncanny resemblance to the AD&D gnome.
> 
> ...



Howdy Zander,

When I was a lad there was a cast iron doorstop in the house. It was a gnome...and it scared the daylights out of me. that's where I got the physical description of the AD&D gnome--enlarged doorstop   As i really liked _Three Hearts and Three Lions,_ I might well have been subconsciously influenced by Hugi from that story, but I was not consciously thinking of that character. The fact is that it was tough to make gnomes distinct from dwarves, as the gnomes were supposedly elemental earth creatures found in mines, and I didn't want to make them like Rumpledstiltskin (sp?) even though I was thinking of fairy tale tyoes when I wrote the entry.

The nixies in _Three Hearts and Three Lions_ were indeed a partial inspiration for those in the game, as were kelpies. The same is true for the swanmay--a mix of Anderson's take and the folklore/fairytale swan maidens.

The fact is that I have read so much mythology, folklore, fairytales, and authored fiction with monsters and all manner of strange folk and creatures that it is hard to pin down exactly where a good number of the A/D&D monsters got their inspiration.

I notes some comments regarding the su monster. As a matter of fact I do not recall if that is a critter I devised or another gamer passed along for me to include in the MM. I do know that the sources cited in the post were quite unknown to me.

Cheers,
Gary


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## Quartz (Oct 5, 2007)

With regards to the sahuagin, how are they not the Sea Devils from Dr Who?


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## Griffith Dragonlake (Oct 5, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> If anyone reading this thresd has specific questions I'll be happy to answer them.



Thanks a lot Gary for dropping in and giving us some insightful answers.

In OD&D there is a monster table listing a "Thoul" with 7 hit dice but no description until the Basic D&D set (Moldavay version IIRC).  Was the Thoul a typo?  Or a monster that got cut from the original rules?


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 5, 2007)

Quartz said:
			
		

> With regards to the sahuagin, how are they not the Sea Devils from Dr Who?



That is a question for Steve Marsh, the one that devised those critters as I recall. I know it was not my creation  

Cheers,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 5, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot Gary for dropping in and giving us some insightful answers.
> 
> In OD&D there is a monster table listing a "Thoul" with 7 hit dice but no description until the Basic D&D set (Moldavay version IIRC).  Was the Thoul a typo?  Or a monster that got cut from the original rules?



Happy to oblige  

The thoul was a troll ghoul, and as I recall not of 7 HD but more in the 4 +3 HD range in my campaign. They attacked with two clawed hands (2-5 damage per) and any hit meant the target subject had to save vs. paralysis or go still and immobile. Any save meant immunity to the effect for the duration of combat. They are likely to appear in the Castle Zagyg dungeons.

They regenerate at 1 HP per round.

They turn as do spectres due to the troll basis.

Considering their potency, they are equal to most 7 HD monsters for sure.

Cheerio,
Gary

P.S. I forgot to mention that I somehow neglected to include their description in the D&D rules, so never made them a regular;y appearing monster save in my own dungeons.


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## Tewligan (Oct 6, 2007)

Hey Gary, do I recall correctly that in (I think) Basic D&D, the gnoll is described as a cross between a gnome and a troll? How the heck did that become the gnoll that we know and love today?!


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## rossik (Oct 6, 2007)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Hey Gary, do I recall correctly that in (I think) Basic D&D, the gnoll is described as a cross between a gnome and a troll? How the heck did that become the gnoll that we know and love today?!





in Basic set, gnolls still human-like hyenas..maybe its another set :/

oops, sorry, i found it:

GNOLLS: A cross between Gnomes and Trolls (. . . perhaps, Lord Sunsany did
not really make it all that clear) with +2 morale.


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## Thurbane (Oct 6, 2007)

The Creature From the Black Lagoon seems to be superficially quite similar to the Sahuagin and Locathah in appearance...

Also, is the name Gnoll derived from Lord Dunsany's Gnole?


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## Philotomy Jurament (Oct 6, 2007)

rossik said:
			
		

> oops, sorry, i found it:
> 
> GNOLLS: A cross between Gnomes and Trolls (. . . perhaps, Lord Sunsany did
> not really make it all that clear) with +2 morale.



"Lord Sunsany" sure looks like a typo of Lord Dunsany, to me.  (For those who don't know, the quote is from Volume 2 of the three OD&D booklets, _Monsters & Treasure_.)


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## RFisher (Oct 6, 2007)

"How Nuth would have Practised his Art upon the Gnoles" is from Lord Dunsany's _The Book of Wonder_.

Edit: Removed extraneous R from "Lorrd".


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## T. Foster (Oct 6, 2007)

Geek trivia: the "Lord Sunsany" typo in the gnoll monster description was introduced in the 5th printing of D&D (when the books were reset in a different font). If you look in a 4th (and, presumably, though I've never actually seen one, earlier) printing copy, the reference is correctly made to Lord Dunsany.


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 6, 2007)

I must qualify somethng I wrote earlier:

"All of the monsters in question are unique to AD&D, and as I wrote virtually all of their stats and descriptions they are in fact my creative products, not the IP of WotC. That's a FWIW."

I left out the "morally" after "in fact" in the above statement. :egally, the monsters are indeed the IP of WotC.

That clarifies things nicely.

Cheerio,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 6, 2007)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Hey Gary, do I recall correctly that in (I think) Basic D&D, the gnoll is described as a cross between a gnome and a troll? How the heck did that become the gnoll that we know and love today?!



 

Ah, well...

The original gnoll was a strange critter in a (rather bad) novel that I wrote and was in part run in _Dragon_ magazine's early numbers. I didn't find that creature a suitable humanoid for the D&D game, so I revised gnoll into a hyena-like humanoid. (I find hyenas most unappealing in all respects, including their stench  )

As another poster noted, "Sunsany" is a typo, and it is Dunsany.

Cheers,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 6, 2007)

Thurbane said:
			
		

> The Creature From the Black Lagoon seems to be superficially quite similar to the Sahuagin and Locathah in appearance...
> 
> Also, is the name Gnoll derived from Lord Dunsany's Gnole?



As I didn't devise either of those monsters, I had no input on their appearance. Hoiwever, I concur in regards the appearance of each being similar to theCreature from the Black Lagoon. Of course any aquatic humanoid would bear paonts or resemblance to it.

The name inspiration for the gnoll came from the short story in the _Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction_, "The Man Who Sold Rope to the Gnoles." Blamed if I can now recall the actual author of that piece.

Cheerio,
Gary


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## T. Foster (Oct 6, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> The name inspiration for the gnoll came from the short story in the _Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction_, "The Man Who Sold Rope to the Gnoles." Blamed if I can now recall the actual author of that piece.



Idris Seabright, which is a pseudonym of Margaret St. Clair. One of many authors I discovered via your famous "Inspirational Reading" list in the AD&D DMG


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 6, 2007)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> Idris Seabright, which is a pseudonym of Margaret St. Clair. One of many authors I discovered via your famous "Inspirational Reading" list in the AD&D DMG



Funny, in the back of my mind I was thinking MArgaret St. Clair wrote it, but it didn't quite click. So thanks... Clearly she admired Lord Dunsany.

Cheerio,
Gary


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## Contrarian (Oct 7, 2007)

Quartz said:
			
		

> With regards to the sahuagin, how are they not the Sea Devils from Dr Who?



Almost nobody in the United States had seen "Doctor Who" when the sahuagin were first published in 1975.  The show was one for a year here in 1972, then disappeared until 1978.

Also, Steve Marsh has gone on record as blaming a Justice League cartoon for inspiring the monster.

(By the way, here's a picture of a Sea Devil for those of you wondering what we're talking about.)


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## grodog (Oct 7, 2007)

Hi Gary---

Can you shed any light on the inspirations for the Lurker Above and the Trapper vs. MAR Barker's monsters the Mantle and Whelk?  Barker's beasts both appeared in the 1975 TSR EPT box set?  The monsters are similar in style/niches, so it seems like one may have been based on the other??

Here are the descs for the Mantle and Whelk, in case they don't ring a bell off the top of your head 



> Ngóro “the Whelk”: AC 6, HD 16, Mv 6”
> 
> These huge (30 feet in length) creatures lie flat upon the floor of a chamber and appear much like the rough stone flooring of the Underworld, although they may feel a little springy to walk upon. They are intelligent and use their millions of tiny cilia (beneath their bodies) to hold miniature weapons (both edged and “Eyes”). They may also close up on unwary passersby, crushing them in their powerful folds. A saving throw of 14 is needed by any character so trapped to jump free before the Ngóro can close up on him. There is a 50 percent chance that the creature will use its other weapons and a 50 percent chance that it will close upon a party (it can crush 1-20 at once). A person thus trapped suffers two 6-sided dice of damage per round until he is freed by him companions, who must kill the creature in order to rescue him. If subdued (i.e., brought to exactly one or zero remaining hit points), the Ngóro will offer one of its magical weapons in return for its life.




and



> Biridlú “the Mantle”: AC 3, HD 4+1, Mv 6”/13” fly
> 
> These ancient treasure guardians are cape-like, black, flying creatures which cling to ceilings
> and drop down upon the unwary. They then suffocate their victim, gibbering and shrieking in their powerfully muscled folds. They cannot be cut by Chlén-hide weapons but only by
> steel. A victim inside has a 40 percent chance of cutting himself free on the first combat round, a 30 percent chance on the second, and a 15 percent chance on the third. Those outside may also try to cut their friend free: this requires a normal hit and is successful only when the beast is slain. A victim takes one 6-sided die of damage on the first round, 2 dice on the second, and 3 dice on the third. The Biridlú fights maniacally until all life is gone from it, and the body must be burned; otherwise it regenerates within 3 combat rounds.




Thanks!


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## Garnfellow (Oct 7, 2007)

This is a great thread -- I love reading these History of the Game origins.

As a slight tangent, I would suggest that the original illustrators of these monsters could almost be considered co-creators. The early text descriptions of monsters were generally so brief and in some cases so nebulous that the illustrations were absolutely crucial to how players imagined  these critters. 

The late, much lamented Dave Sutherland, for example, was a major influence on such canonical monsters as bugbears, hobgoblins, and gnolls. And in many cases, his illustrations continue to influence the way these monsters are depicted.


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## Valiant (Oct 7, 2007)

Gary,  I'm curious to know if horror films of the 50-70s (or earlier) influenced you at all in devising certain monsters in the MM.  For instance, the old Hammer Films have odd creatures that resemble some of the monsters found in the MM, then there were movies like "Day of the Triphods" and some of the old Sci Fi B-movie thrillers (for instance, I've always wondered if you'd used "Green Slime" the movie for the inspiration of the monster of the same name in the MM)?  Certainly as a kid you must have grown up watching some of these old classics?


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 7, 2007)

grodog said:
			
		

> Hi Gary---
> 
> Can you shed any light on the inspirations for the Lurker Above and the Trapper vs. MAR Barker's monsters the Mantle and Whelk?  Barker's beasts both appeared in the 1975 TSR EPT box set?  The monsters are similar in style/niches, so it seems like one may have been based on the other??
> 
> ...



Hi Alan,

Absolutely! Phil was much inspired by the D&D game when he wrote the EPT one, so I had no qualms about returning the favor. Of course the two for D&D were not merely rehashes of Barker's pair, but rather monsters suitable to the dungeon environment of the D&D game.

The thought of placing a trapper on the floor with a lurker above overhead made me laught a good deal, and of course I did just that in my own dungeon levels.

I have a rather complex creature that is a ceiling dweller in the LA game, the domlithicon. It shoots miniature harpoons and travels by expulsion of internal gas  

Cheers,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 7, 2007)

Garnfellow said:
			
		

> This is a great thread -- I love reading these History of the Game origins.
> 
> As a slight tangent, I would suggest that the original illustrators of these monsters could almost be considered co-creators. The early text descriptions of monsters were generally so brief and in some cases so nebulous that the illustrations were absolutely crucial to how players imagined  these critters.
> 
> The late, much lamented Dave Sutherland, for example, was a major influence on such canonical monsters as bugbears, hobgoblins, and gnolls. And in many cases, his illustrations continue to influence the way these monsters are depicted.



True to a certain extent only.

First, the depiction of a monster is only a part of its game description, a part that can be ignored whuke the stars for it are a muct to make it useful in play. As Plato noted, "Spectacle is the lase element in tragedy."

Also, for most of those illustrations the artist queried me as to appearance and passed the initial sketches by for approval. Sadly, the preliminaries for kobolds slipped past me, as the OAD&D depiction is not correct.

Cheerio,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 7, 2007)

Valiant said:
			
		

> Gary,  I'm curious to know if horror films of the 50-70s (or earlier) influenced you at all in devising certain monsters in the MM.  For instance, the old Hammer Films have odd creatures that resemble some of the monsters found in the MM, then there were movies like "Day of the Triphods" and some of the old Sci Fi B-movie thrillers (for instance, I've always wondered if you'd used "Green Slime" the movie for the inspiration of the monster of the same name in the MM)?  Certainly as a kid you must have grown up watching some of these old classics?



Actually, as I was a teenager for most of the 1950s, went to the theater a lot, read many comic books, became a rabid fan of F&SF in 1950, it is likely that there was some influence of the sort you mention. Name the specific critters and I will do my best to recall how I came up with it.

Green slime was certainly inspired by _The Attack of the Green Slime_ film.

The werewolf in the game was inspired by Lon Chaney playing Lawrence Talbot, the Wolfman.

The D&D vampire is much influenced by those written about by Bram Stoker, depicted by Bela Lugosi.

The flesh golem is based on Frankenstein's Monster, of course.

Plastic Man from the comic book of that name was the mimic.

The wolf in sheep's clothing was inspired by the weird fish in ther ocean depths that use lures to bring their priy close enough to attack.

(And the twerp that was attempting to make fun of fantasy monsters seems to be quite unaware of facts such as those    )

 
Gary


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## The Green Adam (Oct 7, 2007)

Arcturion said:
			
		

> Shi shi lion dogs, to be exact. They're all over the place here on Okinawa, and almost always encountered in pairs (one male, one female). A peculiar combination of lion, dragon, and dog, which is strange considering that lions are not native to Japan nor Okinawa. Definitely an influence of Chinese and Korean mythologies mixing with Japanese as Okinawa/Ryukyu Island(s) was an independent sovereign up until fairly recently, and served as a focal point of trade between all three countries and more besides (Thailand, etc.).
> 
> I actually haven't thought of shi shi as being dragonne before but now that I think more about it, it does make some sense (minus the wings and adding in a more dog-like tail). For some reason the desert climates favored by dragonne brought to mind some sort of Arabian or ancient Babylonian/Mesopotamian/Sumerian vibe to me. Must be a subconscious thing as I selected a dragonne as a cohort/mount for a DMPC, heh.




An old friend of mine from junior high school and a professional comic book artist and inker is originally from Burma and identified the Dragonne image right away as a creature from the folklore of Burma/Indochina and similar to the Shi Shi/Foo lions. He said there was once a winged Shi Shi Lion statue on top of a temple in his country until it was vandalized or stolen at one point in that nation's history. Two 'traditional' creatures sat outside the front entrance to that same temple and remain there today as far as I know.

My friend once played a Human Paladin PC who gained the ability to transform into a Dragonne. The character was given a Holy Avenger that was +3 (instead of +5) by his mentor before said elder died. The elder transformed into a Dragonne upon his death, revealing his true form, and bestowing the transformation power upon his former student.

Neat huh?

AD


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## Scylla (Oct 7, 2007)

Thurbane said:
			
		

> The toy in question




And here is mine.   
Rust Monster Toy


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 7, 2007)

Scylla said:
			
		

> And here is mine.
> Rust Monster Toy



That figurine was so silly I just had to use it as a monster that would bring fear to many a PC; and so, Ladies & Gentlemen, enter Rust Monster stage right  

Cheers,
Gary


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## Scylla (Oct 7, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> That figurine was so silly I just had to use it as a monster that would bring fear to many a PC; and so, Ladies & Gentlemen, enter Rust Monster stage right
> 
> Cheers,
> Gary




An excellent creative decision, Mr. Gygax. And my players hate you for it...


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## Huw (Oct 7, 2007)

I have a question, assuming Gary's not get sick of them.

Wings on the chimera and manticore. Did you make them flying, or was there some other source?

Thanks.


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## Contrarian (Oct 7, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> That figurine was so silly I just had to use it as a monster that would bring fear to many a PC; and so, Ladies & Gentlemen, enter Rust Monster stage right




Gary, I have a question about how playing with miniatures did (or didn't) affect the choice of monsters in the early D&D games.

We all know by now that you found the rust monster in a bag of toy dinosaurs.  I'm wondering, were you using the toy dinosaurs in your game?  It _that_ why there are so many different dinosaurs in the original _Monster Manual_?

What about giant insects and animals? Can we blame any of those on conveniently-available toys?  (My understanding is that there weren't a lot of fantasy _monsters_ available in lead during the early D&D years, so you must have improvised a lot, right?)


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## Thurbane (Oct 8, 2007)

I'm guessing giant animals/insects/arachnids would have been inspired by movies such as Them, Monster From Green Hell, The Giant Gila Monster, The Black Scorpion, The Deadly Mantis & Tarantula...not to mention various literary sources - Robert E Howard used giant critters as adversaries for Conan in more than one story.


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## The Green Adam (Oct 8, 2007)

In one of my earliest campaigns my players encountered a Lurker Above and then later on a few adventures later a Trapper. Not knowing what the latter was called they identified it a _Lurker Below_. They still call it that to this day.  

AD


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## kenobi65 (Oct 8, 2007)

The Green Adam said:
			
		

> In one of my earliest campaigns my players encountered a Lurker Above and then later on a few adventures later a Trapper. Not knowing what the latter was called they identified it a _Lurker Below_. They still call it that to this day.




Funny. 

Though, for some reason, it made me decide that there would need to be a dungeon in which there's some other monster that tends the Trappers (and probably the Lurkers Above, too)...you know, mucking out their rooms, throwing in a kobold or two when there hasn't been adventurers in the dungeon for a while.  You'd have to call him a Trapper Keeper, of course.


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## Arcturion (Oct 8, 2007)

The Green Adam said:
			
		

> An old friend of mine from junior high school and a professional comic book artist and inker is originally from Burma and identified the Dragonne image right away as a creature from the folklore of Burma/Indochina and similar to the Shi Shi/Foo lions. He said there was once a winged Shi Shi Lion statue on top of a temple in his country until it was vandalized or stolen at one point in that nation's history. Two 'traditional' creatures sat outside the front entrance to that same temple and remain there today as far as I know.
> 
> My friend once played a Human Paladin PC who gained the ability to transform into a Dragonne. The character was given a Holy Avenger that was +3 (instead of +5) by his mentor before said elder died. The elder transformed into a Dragonne upon his death, revealing his true form, and bestowing the transformation power upon his former student.
> 
> ...




That's an interesting tidbit. Ever get the official Burmese name/term for the creature? Dragonne by itself sounds rather, well, plain to my ears (presumably by mixing dragon and lion/leonne together) and it's somewhat troublesome mixing up dragonne with dragon (in the more conventional sense of the word). I'm always interested in the origins of words and terms as far as language and history go.

On a somewhat related but side note, I got a chance to handle a real Burmese dha once; very interesting sword. My experience in ancient weaponry lies mostly with Japanese-style swords, but have seen some Chinese- (daos and jians) and Korean-inspired pieces (used for gumdo). Always neat to see how various neighboring cultures influenced one another, not just in language, but also customs, clothing, food, and things like warfare.

On a completely unrelated note, noticed that you're from NYC (what part of the city, by the way?). I'm from Brooklyn, born and raised, before I joined the military. Small world.


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## Korgoth (Oct 8, 2007)

Arcturion said:
			
		

> That's an interesting tidbit. Ever get the official Burmese name/term for the creature?




Chinthe?


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## The Green Adam (Oct 8, 2007)

Arcturion said:
			
		

> That's an interesting tidbit. Ever get the official Burmese name/term for the creature? Dragonne by itself sounds rather, well, plain to my ears (presumably by mixing dragon and lion/leonne together) and it's somewhat troublesome mixing up dragonne with dragon (in the more conventional sense of the word). I'm always interested in the origins of words and terms as far as language and history go.
> 
> On a somewhat related but side note, I got a chance to handle a real Burmese dha once; very interesting sword. My experience in ancient weaponry lies mostly with Japanese-style swords, but have seen some Chinese- (daos and jians) and Korean-inspired pieces (used for gumdo). Always neat to see how various neighboring cultures influenced one another, not just in language, but also customs, clothing, food, and things like warfare.
> 
> On a completely unrelated note, noticed that you're from NYC (what part of the city, by the way?). I'm from Brooklyn, born and raised, before I joined the military. Small world.




I don't recall the exact name but I'll drop my friend an email and see if he remembers.

I too am originally from Brooklyn, the Kensington Area near Prospect Park (End of Ocean Parkway). I live in Manhattan now and have for the last 20 years or so. 

Your quite right about cross cultural pollination as it were. Very cool to see those items like look out of place but are in fact native thanks to exposure to other peoples. An interesting bit of color to add to one or more neighboring peoples in a campaign.

AD


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## rossik (Oct 8, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> Sadly, the preliminaries for kobolds slipped past me, as the OAD&D depiction is not correct.
> 
> Cheerio,
> Gary





gary, i dont get what you mean...


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 8, 2007)

Huw said:
			
		

> I have a question, assuming Gary's not get sick of them.
> 
> Wings on the chimera and manticore. Did you make them flying, or was there some other source?
> 
> Thanks.



I confess it was my decision to give them wings. It was to make them more mobile and thus more dangerous.

Cheers,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 8, 2007)

Contrarian said:
			
		

> Gary, I have a question about how playing with miniatures did (or didn't) affect the choice of monsters in the early D&D games.
> 
> We all know by now that you found the rust monster in a bag of toy dinosaurs.  I'm wondering, were you using the toy dinosaurs in your game?  It _that_ why there are so many different dinosaurs in the original _Monster Manual_?
> 
> What about giant insects and animals? Can we blame any of those on conveniently-available toys?  (My understanding is that there weren't a lot of fantasy _monsters_ available in lead during the early D&D years, so you must have improvised a lot, right?)



there were virtually no fantasy figurines being produced when _Chainmail_ Fantasy Supplement tabletop battles were being played, and so that is where the conversion of dime store toys into monsters began. I made a 90mm Elastolin Viking figire into a blue giant with a club, a stegosaurus into a winged red dragon, 60 mm plastic Indians into ogres, etc. Jack Scruby began casting orc, so we had real miniatures for them--the Orcs of the Vile Rune whose symbol was a fist with a raised digit. We had a giant ant, but that's about it.

When play switched over to D&D adventures, we seldom used any figurines at all, not even those for PCs, as dice sufficed to show all the relative positions of antagonists in a battle.

Ths dinosaurs were added bacvause I wanted to ba a paleontologist from the time I was about age 5 on. My cousin, Dr. Charlotte Otten game me a volume of the University of Knowledge books, and it had a few creatures form the Age of Reptiles as well as dinosaurs in it. That hooked me. The Epic of Aerth world setting has all sorts of prehistoric animals, from reptiles to mammals in the hollow center of it  

Holler if that doesn't answer fully your questions.

Cheers,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 8, 2007)

Thurbane said:
			
		

> I'm guessing giant animals/insects/arachnids would have been inspired by movies such as Them, Monster From Green Hell, The Giant Gila Monster, The Black Scorpion, The Deadly Mantis & Tarantula...not to mention various literary sources - Robert E Howard used giant critters as adversaries for Conan in more than one story.



Close  

I really liked Them when it came out, and there was a SF story in a pulp zine about huge formarians as well. Of course I read all the Conan books before the D&D game was created. Giant ants were sufficient to stimulate my imagination so as to expand such giganticism to other creatures.

Cheers,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 8, 2007)

The Green Adam said:
			
		

> In one of my earliest campaigns my players encountered a Lurker Above and then later on a few adventures later a Trapper. Not knowing what the latter was called they identified it a _Lurker Below_. They still call it that to this day.
> 
> AD



 

Why not? I used to call beholders "eye tyrants" because those bloody things were so intimidating.

Cheers,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 8, 2007)

rossik said:
			
		

> gary, i dont get what you mean...



Ah sure...

Kobolds were not meant to look like canines, nor have some reptillian features. they were patterened after the Teutonic kobolds, forest goblins.

Cheerio,
Gary


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## JeffB (Oct 8, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> Ah sure...
> 
> Kobolds were not meant to look like canines, nor have some reptillian features. they were patterened after the Teutonic kobolds, forest goblins.
> 
> ...




Something along the lines of this,  Gary?


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 8, 2007)

JeffB said:
			
		

> Something along the lines of this,  Gary?



 

Those are great illustrations of goblinesque little fairy folk. Had I had that picture on hand when kobolds were put into the MM, that's is what I'd have passed along to DCSIII.

Thanks,
Gary


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## kenobi65 (Oct 8, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> Those are great illustrations of goblinesque little fairy folk. Had I had that picture on hand when kobolds were put into the MM, that's is what I'd have passed along to DCSIII.




So, it would seem that the entire "kobolds thinking they're of the blood of dragons" can be traced back to a miscommunication in an art order in the late 1970s.


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## rossik (Oct 8, 2007)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> So, it would seem that the entire "kobolds thinking they're of the blood of dragons" can be traced back to a miscommunication in an art order in the late 1970s.





i thoght that the dragon relation  was a 3ed thing, wasnt it?


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## Raven Crowking (Oct 8, 2007)

rossik said:
			
		

> i thoght that the dragon relation  was a 3ed thing, wasnt it?





Yes.

After all, that half-dragon template has to get used for _something_.


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## JeffB (Oct 8, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> Those are great illustrations of goblinesque little fairy folk. Had I had that picture on hand when kobolds were put into the MM, that's is what I'd have passed along to DCSIII.
> 
> Thanks,
> Gary




  Well I've always enjoyed David's "incorrect" picture, and there's a nice take on it by Jeff Dee somewhere in one of the old 1E books I used to own (Rogues Gallery, IIRC) that is my fave "little dog/reptile men" kobold.

That said, I've always liked the "folklore" aesthetic approach to many monsters (as in your LA game e.g.), and I'd have no issue with Kobolds having looked like that illo throughout D&D's history.


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 8, 2007)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> So, it would seem that the entire "kobolds thinking they're of the blood of dragons" can be traced back to a miscommunication in an art order in the late 1970s.



Or more likely someone trying to change them for the sake of change.

Kobolds as originally concieved were based on folklore as noted...dragons' kin indeed  

Cheerio,
Gary


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 8, 2007)

JeffB said:
			
		

> Well I've always enjoyed David's "incorrect" picture, and there's a nice take on it by Jeff Dee somewhere in one of the old 1E books I used to own (Rogues Gallery, IIRC) that is my fave "little dog/reptile men" kobold.
> 
> That said, I've always liked the "folklore" aesthetic approach to many monsters (as in your LA game e.g.), and I'd have no issue with Kobolds having looked like that illo throughout D&D's history.



 

Who can argue with personal preference? All GMs change whatever doesn't suit them in rules, settings, and modules  

Cheerio,
Gary


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## Thanael (Oct 10, 2007)

Here's a great resource on the Origin of D&D monsters: http://rpg.crg4.com/origins.html


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## rossik (Oct 10, 2007)

dyx said:
			
		

> Here's a great resource on the Origin of D&D monsters: http://rpg.crg4.com/origins.html




oh, just saw my dragon question...sorry for asking again, gary!


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 10, 2007)

rossik said:
			
		

> oh, just saw my dragon question...sorry for asking again, gary!



 

Not a problem at all.

I forget answering as easily as you forgert asking  

Cheerio,
Gary


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## John Q. Mayhem (Oct 13, 2007)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> I confess it was my decision to give them wings. It was to make them more mobile and thus more dangerous.
> 
> Cheers,
> Gary




I like 'em winged, too. By the by, there're winged manticores in _The Guns of Avalon_, second book in Zelazny's _Chronicles of Amber_, from the 70s. Have you ever read those books? They're fantastic, lots of fascinating stuff.


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 13, 2007)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> I like 'em winged, too. By the by, there're winged manticores in _The Guns of Avalon_, second book in Zelazny's _Chronicles of Amber_, from the 70s. Have you ever read those books? They're fantastic, lots of fascinating stuff.



Howdy,

I like Zelazny's material a lot, but the "Amber" story did not appeal to me for whatever reason. I fought my way through the first book and passed on the others. On reflection it seemed too much like a soap opera to me.

Cheers,
Gary


----------

