# Dragonlance based on Mormonism?!?



## Desdichado (Aug 19, 2004)

Faraer said:
			
		

> Dragonlance would also be problematic because it's *so* Tolkienesque (except based on Mormonism instead of Roman Catholicism). A good but inauthentic D&D film might be good commercially for D&D, but it would be damaging to the secondary worlds themselves.



Saw this in the D&D movie poll, and I didn't want to clutter that thread up with tangents, but what's this about?  Other than the fact that one of the authors, Tracy Hickman is a Mormon, I've never seen any correllations between Dragonlance and Mormonism, even to the extent that Lord of the Rings weakly correllates to Catholicism.

And I should know; I'm a Mormon too...

Anyway, just wondering where this sentiment comes from; what specifically is the supposed Mormon basis for Dragonlance?


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## Faraer (Aug 19, 2004)

Tolkien's Catholicism is absolutely fundamental to the metaphysics of Middle-earth. Tracy Hickman's Mormon beliefs aren't quite so central to Dragonlance, but he's been quite frank about them influencing Dragonlance's ethics and theology.


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## Mercule (Aug 19, 2004)

There's a difference between being compatible with and being central to.  I've seen LotR called a Christian allegory (I don't completely agree, but there are people capable of making the argument).  Obviously, Narnia is.  Dragonlance, though?  Just not seeing it.


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## Faraer (Aug 19, 2004)

Well, as I understand it the case with Dragonlance is somewhere between compatible with and central to. I'm rather taking Tracy's word here, as my knowledge of Krynn isn't profound. Reading Tolkien's letters, though, you see how his Christianity is a constant underpinning, motivator, and guide for how every part of Arda is constructed -- though he (and I) would reject the 'allegory' accusation.


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## Desdichado (Aug 19, 2004)

Just reading through the Dragonlance books (and I've really only read the original trilogy) I don't see anything that I'd point to and say, "yup, there's a Mormon doctrine right there" or anything like that.

The ethics and theology seem reasonably generic midwest American to me.


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## BiggusGeekus (Aug 19, 2004)

Other than Tanis wanting Laurana and Kitiara, I really don't see it either.

Frankly, the only religious influence I ever saw in W-H works were the vague references to a higher power in the Death Gate cycle.


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## Benben (Aug 19, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Just reading through the Dragonlance books (and I've really only read the original trilogy) I don't see anything that I'd point to and say, "yup, there's a Mormon doctrine right there" or anything like that.
> 
> The ethics and theology seem reasonably generic midwest American to me.



I agree with Dragonlance not being an allegory of Latter Day Saint doctrine.  I would say the Alivin Maker series by Orson Scott Card is a good example of Mormon allegory. 

I know Hickman designed the arcane language in Dragonlance off of his knowledge of I believe Indonesian which he learned for his mission.   I've also always found the Plainsfolk to have a "Lost Tribes of Israel" feel to them.  That is probably due to them have a strange Native American/European feel to them.  The Disks of Miskal remind me a little of the Golden Tablets, but are also hitting the "sacred scripture" mythological element common in many religions.  So other than skills gained from his Mission the links seem to be pretty weak from what I remember of the series.


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## nikolai (Aug 19, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> [*Re: Dragonlance based on Mormonism?!?*] Saw this in the D&D movie poll, and I didn't want to clutter that thread up with tangents, but what's this about?  Other than the fact that one of the authors, Tracy Hickman is a Mormon, I've never seen any correllations between Dragonlance and Mormonism, even to the extent that Lord of the Rings weakly correllates to Catholicism.




This is the first I've heard of it. But I have no knowledge of Mormonism, so I doubt I'm capable of making a informed judgement.

There are various levels of this sort of thing. _Narnia_ is Christian allegory. This is pretty easy to spot, as one thing in the story represents something else; Edmund=Judas. The reason Tolkien would reject this for _Lord of the Rings_ is because there are none of these correspondences.

The next level down is to use the metaphysics of a religion, and is subtler. _The Lord of the Rings_ is Catholic, and _Earthsea_ is Taoist. Though you'd miss a lot of this without careful reading and a pretty clear understanding of various theologies (and their nuances). 

Too be honest, I'm not sure that _Dragonlance_ is deep enough for this. It's been a while since I read the books, but I don't think there's anything in there that is unique even to Christianity. I'm with Joshua that the ethics just seem very generic. It wouldn't surprise me if it was compatible; but I'm sure there's lots of stuff that would be compatible, without any intent on the part of the author to make it so.

I have heard that _Battlestar Galactica_ is based on Mormonism. True, False, Nonsense?


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## Desdichado (Aug 19, 2004)

nikolai said:
			
		

> I have heard that _Battlestar Galactica_ is based on Mormonism. True, False, Nonsense?



Mostly nonsense, I'd say.  They borrowed a few titles (High Council) but they are generic enough and not used in the same sense, so it's merely swiping an appropriate handy name.  A better correllation would be between the denizens of the battlestars and the wanderings of the Children of Israel.


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## Dark Jezter (Aug 19, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Saw this in the D&D movie poll, and I didn't want to clutter that thread up with tangents, but what's this about?  Other than the fact that one of the authors, Tracy Hickman is a Mormon, I've never seen any correllations between Dragonlance and Mormonism, even to the extent that Lord of the Rings weakly correllates to Catholicism.
> 
> And I should know; I'm a Mormon too...
> 
> Anyway, just wondering where this sentiment comes from; what specifically is the supposed Mormon basis for Dragonlance?



 It's always good to meet a fellow Mormon online. 

I, too, haven't really seen any major similarities between Mormonism and Dragonlance, but then again it has been a _long_ time since I've read the original Weis & Hickman Dragonlance novels.  I'll probably have to reread them someday.


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## Arani Korden (Aug 19, 2004)

Benben said:
			
		

> The Disks of Miskal remind me a little of the Golden Tablets, but are also hitting the "sacred scripture" mythological element common in many religions.  So other than skills gained from his Mission the links seem to be pretty weak from what I remember of the series.




(I'm also LDS, but what I know about Dragonlance comes from reading the first two trilogies back in High School, so grains of salt for everyone!)

I agree that it's not a direct allegory, though you can see where the series has been informed by Hickman's faith.  In addition to the Disks of Mishakal/Golden Plates thing (which leads to the restoration of an empowered priesthood), the fall of Istar reminds me of the Nephite cycle of pride and repentance.


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## Desdichado (Aug 19, 2004)

Arani Korden said:
			
		

> I agree that it's not a direct allegory, though you can see where the series has been informed by Hickman's faith.  In addition to the Disks of Mishakal/Golden Plates thing (which leads to the restoration of an empowered priesthood), the fall of Istar reminds me of the Nephite cycle of pride and repentance.



Huh.  Those never occured to me.  Good call.

Y'know, I glanced over at your location, and at first I read that as Nauvoo.


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## Faraer (Aug 19, 2004)

Glen Larsen is certainly a Mormon, though opinions differ of how far _Battlestar Galactica_ is based on that.


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## ShadowX (Aug 19, 2004)

I think all the Weis and Hickman novels are influenced somewhat by Christianity and more specifically the LDS faith.  I recall that the Rose of the Prophet  trilogy had a strong Mormon correlation, and that Dragonlance was much weaker  in this area, but my memory could be failing me.


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## Mythtify (Aug 20, 2004)

I'm not LDS, though a lot of my friends are. I have also studied LDS theology, on of my favorite sources being "Mormon Doctrine" by McConkie.

Looking from the outside in, I would say that D&D in general has a mormon take on the afterlife. Specificly, eternal progression.  The old D&D immortal set made me think of this.


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## Krieg (Aug 20, 2004)

> Adam's Ark was sort of about the origins of mankind in the universe, taking some of the biblical stories and moving them off into space as if by the time we get them to Earth, they're really not about things that happened here, but things that might have happened someplace else in space. It was influenced by Von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods and some of those things... Adam's Ark helped bring a focus into what my concept had been. Ultimately, Battlestar Galactica is my original idea refined down to where I now have fixed on what my point of view is on how all humans throughout the galaxy probably evolved from some mother colony.



---Glen Larson 1978

I think it is safe to say that while BG isn't a direct retelling of the book of Mormon, it was strongly influenced by Larson's faith.


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## Desdichado (Aug 20, 2004)

Actually, it's not at all a retelling of the Book of Mormon if it's a hodge podge of the Adam story from Genesis and Von Daniken's _Chariots of the Gods_ type stuff.


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## Krieg (Aug 20, 2004)

...and it was also influenced by Larson's religious beliefs as he himself has stated.


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## Desdichado (Aug 20, 2004)

Krieg said:
			
		

> ...and it was also influenced by Larson's religious beliefs as he himself has stated.



Yeah, but saying it is based on his religious beliefs and then drawing parallels to Adam and the lost tribes of Israel isn't saying much.  I believe, after all, that the Bible is still the best-selling book in the world.  And the Koran has those features as well.


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## Tetsubo (Aug 20, 2004)

Mercule said:
			
		

> There's a difference between being compatible with and being central to.  I've seen LotR called a Christian allegory (I don't completely agree, but there are people capable of making the argument).  Obviously, Narnia is.  Dragonlance, though?  Just not seeing it.




I read an article in a Pagan magazine once that described how Narnia helped to convert someone away from Christianity and into becoming a Wiccan.


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## Benben (Aug 20, 2004)

> the fall of Istar reminds me of the Nephite cycle of pride and repentance.



I'm a non-Mormon, but one who has lived in Idaho all of his life.  The Nephite cycle is a out of my experience, can anybody give a precis?


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## Benben (Aug 20, 2004)

ShadowX said:
			
		

> I recall that the Rose of the Prophet trilogy had a strong Mormon correlation, and that Dragonlance was much weaker in this area, but my memory could be failing me.



Any way we can give your memory a boost, because I'm just not seeing the allegorical references.  It seems or of a D20 extension to the AD&D alignment system.  The other major character and cultural arcs don't seem to map to my limited knowledge of LDS theology.


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## Kesh (Aug 20, 2004)

In the Annotated books, there's a mention that Hickman did draw on his faith for a few ideas, but it wasn't allegorical or anything. It just provided inspiration for a few things. I do seem to recall a small essay at the back of the Annotated Chronicles talking about how he drew from his faith to help create the DL pantheon.

Unfortunately, I don't have the book handy to reference, so my memory might be a little fuzzy on that.


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## ShadowX (Aug 20, 2004)

Kesh said:
			
		

> In the Annotated books, there's a mention that Hickman did draw on his faith for a few ideas, but it wasn't allegorical or anything. It just provided inspiration for a few things. I do seem to recall a small essay at the back of the Annotated Chronicles talking about how he drew from his faith to help create the DL pantheon.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't have the book handy to reference, so my memory might be a little fuzzy on that.




That would be my impression from his works.  Nothing allegorical, but an occasional idea that is similar to some piece of doctrine.


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## ShadowX (Aug 20, 2004)

Benben said:
			
		

> Any way we can give your memory a boost, because I'm just not seeing the allegorical references.  It seems or of a D20 extension to the AD&D alignment system.  The other major character and cultural arcs don't seem to map to my limited knowledge of LDS theology.




I am sorry if I implied that it was allegorical, I don't remember anything that strong.  IIRC, each god had a fiefdom that wasn't aware of the other kingdoms.     Now this reminded me of the LDS belief that other Gods exist, running their own cosmic experiments, yet we are to pay homage to only our God, the one who birthed us.


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## ShadowX (Aug 20, 2004)

Benben said:
			
		

> I'm a non-Mormon, but one who has lived in Idaho all of his life.  The Nephite cycle is a out of my experience, can anybody give a precis?




1)  People are righteous; blessings are given.
2)  People become prideful because of blessings.
3)  God chastens his people from the myriad ways laid out in the Bible.
4)  People become humble and repent.

Rinse and repeat.


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## Benben (Aug 20, 2004)

ShadowX said:
			
		

> I am sorry if I implied that it was allegorical, I don't remember anything that strong. IIRC, each god had a fiefdom that wasn't aware of the other kingdoms. Now this reminded me of the LDS belief that other Gods exist, running their own cosmic experiments, yet we are to pay homage to only our God, the one who birthed us.



Hmmm, interesting I can see that.


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## reanjr (Aug 21, 2004)

Kesh said:
			
		

> In the Annotated books, there's a mention that Hickman did draw on his faith for a few ideas, but it wasn't allegorical or anything. It just provided inspiration for a few things. I do seem to recall a small essay at the back of the Annotated Chronicles talking about how he drew from his faith to help create the DL pantheon.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't have the book handy to reference, so my memory might be a little fuzzy on that.




If I recall correctly, the Dragonlance deities were the original Forgotten Realms deities created by Jeff Grubb?  Something like that.  Alot of Dragonlance names are taken from the bible or other Christian writings, though (Habbakuk, Hiddukel, Zeboim, and I think even Takhisis).


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## reanjr (Aug 21, 2004)

ShadowX said:
			
		

> I am sorry if I implied that it was allegorical, I don't remember anything that strong.  IIRC, each god had a fiefdom that wasn't aware of the other kingdoms.     Now this reminded me of the LDS belief that other Gods exist, running their own cosmic experiments, yet we are to pay homage to only our God, the one who birthed us.




There's nothing really like that in Dragonlance.  All of the deities and their followers are fully aware of other deities and their followers.  And many deities have intermingled followers.  Istar had a strong following for Paladine and Mishikal; Solamnia was Paladine, Habbakuk, and Kiri-Jolith; Mithas and Kothas followed Sargonnas and Kiri-Jolith; the arcane followers of Takhisis paid respect to Nuitari, Lunitari, and Solinari (all wizards paid respect to those three in fact despite what their individual beliefs might be).

Everybody pretty muched worshipped everybody.


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## ShadowX (Aug 21, 2004)

reanjr said:
			
		

> There's nothing really like that in Dragonlance.  All of the deities and their followers are fully aware of other deities and their followers.  And many deities have intermingled followers.  Istar had a strong following for Paladine and Mishikal; Solamnia was Paladine, Habbakuk, and Kiri-Jolith; Mithas and Kothas followed Sargonnas and Kiri-Jolith; the arcane followers of Takhisis paid respect to Nuitari, Lunitari, and Solinari (all wizards paid respect to those three in fact despite what their individual beliefs might be).
> 
> Everybody pretty muched worshipped everybody.




I was commenting on Rose of the Prophets.


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## Serena DarkMyst (Aug 21, 2004)

reanjr said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, the Dragonlance deities were the original Forgotten Realms deities created by Jeff Grubb?  Something like that.  Alot of Dragonlance names are taken from the bible or other Christian writings, though (Habbakuk, Hiddukel, Zeboim, and I think even Takhisis).




Jeff Grubb had a campaign called Toril...which was not at all related to Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms.  A good number of the gods of Jeff's pantheon were used in Dragonlance, with the names getting a bit of a makeover.  Then, the powers that be used Jeff's campaign name for the planet of the Forgotten Realms setting.  

So, in a weird technical way the gods of Krynn came from Toril, which was not Forgotten Realms....until it was.   

So no....the gods of DL were not the original FR gods...it is just a good example of showing how creative things were used at TSR.


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## mhacdebhandia (Aug 22, 2004)

One thing that certainly owes its roots to Hickman's Mormonism would be the magic spectacles which let Tasslehoff read any language.


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## nikolai (Aug 22, 2004)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> One thing that certainly owes its roots to Hickman's Mormonism would be the magic spectacles which let Tasslehoff read any language.






			
				Arani Korden said:
			
		

> I agree that it's not a direct allegory, though you can see where the series has been informed by Hickman's faith. In addition to the Disks of Mishakal/Golden Plates thing (which leads to the restoration of an empowered priesthood)...




A lot of this discussion is taking place outside any point of reference I have. You might as well be writing in Greek (though, if you were, at least I'd be able to use Babelfish). 

Could someone explain the references above?


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 22, 2004)

nikolai said:
			
		

> A lot of this discussion is taking place outside any point of reference I have. You might as well be writing in Greek (though, if you were, at least I'd be able to use Babelfish).
> 
> Could someone explain the references above?




The only reference I have for it is from South Park, so I won't add anything.


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## Umbran (Aug 22, 2004)

nikolai said:
			
		

> Could someone explain the references above?




Mormonism was jounded by Joseph Smith in 1830.  Smith claimed to have been led by the angel Moroni to dig up a set of Golden Plates that had been buried by the original inhabitants of North America (who were actually the lost tribe of Israel).  He was able to translate writing on the plates using two mystical stones found with the plates.  The resulting text became the Book of Mormon, the new testament of the Bible on which the Chuch of Latter Day Saints is based.

I've been told by a number of folks raised in the Mormon tradition that the South Park episode is actually pretty accurate, for all it's slanted reporting.

Edit:  I have provided the above to clarify some of the references from earlier in the thread.  It is not intended as fodder for a discussion of the Mormon faith or it's tenets, as that is not fit fodder for these message boards.


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## talinthas (Aug 22, 2004)

Dragonlance is (especially in dragons of autumn twilight) pretty heavily based on mormon theology.

 I point to the disks of mishakal, which are direct analogs to the golden plates Smith found, the fall of the church of Istar, which is the Mormon view of the Catholic Church, the turning of man from god, and god waiting to be found again, god being brought by a native american type (goldmoon), just like the Book of Mormon's north american revelations stuff, and so on and so forth.

 If you read annotated Legends, Hickman talks extensively in the appendix about his faith and dragonlance, quoting from a number of mormon texts, including The Pearl of Great Price (which is where Goldmoon's gem analogy comes from).
 Also, see the River of Souls concept and the appendix to Vanished Moon, which while heavily catholic inspired, also carries a lot of mormon messages.


 It's no real secret =)
 Of course, Tracy is also a very widely read person, and not closed minded about other faiths either, as i've learned in numerous discussions with him.


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## Krieg (Aug 23, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Yeah, but saying it is based on his religious beliefs and then drawing parallels to Adam and the lost tribes of Israel isn't saying much. I believe, after all, that the Bible is still the best-selling book in the world. And the Koran has those features as well.



Let's not forget that the 13th tribe holds a far more important roll in the Chruch of LDS than in other branches of the tree of Christianity.

The Count Iblis episodes also feature some theological beliefs that again share more in common with the Mormon faith than other Chrisitan teachings.

Larson has also stated publicly that the use of Egyptian symbology was a homage to Smiths' original tablets.

I am reasonably confident that if Larson were Greek Orthodox, Jehova Witness or Anglican some of the symbology of the film would be very different.

Of course it is completely understandable, anyone's work is influenced by their own background, Larson is no different than any other writer in that regard.

JD just out of curiousity, do you carry a temple recommend? I apologize if that is too invasive a question, just genuinely curious.


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## Desdichado (Aug 23, 2004)

As for Dragonlance, I think those correspondences are pretty trivial and likely coincidental.  I could probably just as easily build a case around the Book of Mormon and it's influence on the Wheel of Time, including the character of King Laman of Cairhien and obvious parallels between the Way of the Leaf the the Ammonites, including the later Aiel as the second generation of Ammonites, the "stripling warriors" of Helaman.

But I won't.  

Krieg; yes I do, as a matter of fact.  Just renewed it a month or two ago in time for my brother's wedding, as it had just expired.


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## talinthas (Aug 23, 2004)

You know, it would be trivial, if Tracy didn't outright say as much.  Have you ever read his essay on gaming and religion?

 Dragonlance, at its core, is very heavily christian, and as a subset, leans pretty LDS in theology.

 Only reason i care?  Dragonlance is responsible for making me a devout and pretty orthodox Hindu, so i've spent a lot of time thinking about and analysing the religious aspect of DL.  maybe too much time =)


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## Storm Raven (Aug 23, 2004)

nikolai said:
			
		

> There are various levels of this sort of thing. _Narnia_ is Christian allegory. This is pretty easy to spot, as one thing in the story represents something else; Edmund=Judas. The reason Tolkien would reject this for _Lord of the Rings_ is because there are none of these correspondences.




Or, even more obviously, Aslan = Jesus.


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## Krieg (Aug 24, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Krieg; yes I do, as a matter of fact. Just renewed it a month or two ago in time for my brother's wedding, as it had just expired.



Thanks Josh.



			
				talinthas said:
			
		

> Dragonlance, at its core, is very heavily christian, and as a subset, leans pretty LDS in theology.
> 
> Only reason i care? Dragonlance is responsible for making me a devout and pretty orthodox Hindu, so i've spent a lot of time thinking about and analysing the religious aspect of DL. maybe too much time =)



I know it wouldn't be apropriate for the board, but there is a very interesting story lurking in there somewhere.


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## talinthas (Aug 24, 2004)

well, i started hindu, and had some rough times, and then read a lot of DL, and felt better.

 It certainly impressed James Wyatt when we spoke about it =)  You're right though, it is kinda interesting, and certainly not for these boards, but definatly why i'm a DL fan to the core =)


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## Dimwhit (Aug 24, 2004)

Wow, didn't know there were so many Mormons hanging around here (myself included).

I never saw any strong Mormon doctrine in Dragonlance, so I wouldn't doubt there is influence there.

Of course, there are Mormons out there who think Star Wars is totally based in Mormonism. And that Steve Martin is Mormon. And...never mind.


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## Dark Jezter (Aug 24, 2004)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Of course, there are Mormons out there who think Star Wars is totally based in Mormonism. And that Steve Martin is Mormon. And...never mind.




Every few years, rumors begin circulating among Mormons that a famous celebrity has converted to mormonism.  I remember that for a while, there was a rumor going around that Harrison Ford converted (it was false, of course). 

A few famous Mormons out there who really are Mormons include Don Bluth, Steve Young, Ken Jennings (the all-time Jeopardy champion), Gladys Knight, Sandy Peterson (game designer who wrote the original _Call of Cthulhu_ RPG back in the early 1980s, and also helped design the classic PC game _Doom_), the late J. Willard Marriot (who founded the Marriot hotel chain), Orson Scott Card, and, of course, Tracy Hickman.

Additionally, Eliza Dushku and Matthew Modine were both raised Mormon, but are not currently active.


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## qstor (Aug 25, 2004)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Other than Tanis wanting Laurana and Kitiara, I really don't see it either.




That's probably cause the guy can't make up this mind  Not that he wants more than one wife...

Mike


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## MormonYoYoMan (Jul 24, 2015)

qstor said:


> That's probably cause the guy can't make up this mind  Not that he wants more than one wife...
> 
> Mike




As if any husband, LDS or otherwise, would want more than one woman to tell him to pick up after himself!

(Old thread, but it's OK since this is an old joke.)


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## Umbran (Jul 24, 2015)

nikolai said:


> There are various levels of this sort of thing. _Narnia_ is Christian allegory. This is pretty easy to spot, as one thing in the story represents something else; Edmund=Judas. The reason Tolkien would reject this for _Lord of the Rings_ is because there are none of these correspondences.




Yes, but then Tolkien was a linguist, and would be careful about his word choice.  

The Lord of the Rings proper is not Christian/Catholic allegory, for the reasons you state - there aren't too many elements in the trilogy that are direct analogs to what is found in common Christian mythology.  

The Silmarillion, however, is (thinly veiled) Christian/Catholic allegory, and if it had been published in his lifetime, Tolkien would have a hard time denying it.  

That means that LotR isn't allegory, but is instead a story set in a world that runs on Christian metaphysics.


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## MechaPilot (Jul 24, 2015)

Umbran said:


> I've been told by a number of folks raised in the Mormon tradition that the South Park episode is actually pretty accurate, for all it's slanted reporting.




Despite my uncle having converted to the Mormon faith, I have to admit that the bulk of my knowledge about Mormonism comes from that South Park episode, couple of programs on the History channel about Brigham Young and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and the posthumous baptism of jews.  I have to admit that the skeptic in me has some of the same problems with the Joseph Smith story that the episode raises, but that's hardly unique to Mormonism; each religion has its own aspects that when looked at skeptically doesn't smell right.


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## MormonYoYoMan (Jul 24, 2015)

Tolkien did attempt to avoid allegories, for he felt allegories are too easily misinterpreted. He did write the following:

"T[HI]he Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work,[/HI]" he wrote, "[HI]unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like "religion", to cults or practices, in the Imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism[/HI]" (Letter 142).

Despite his intent, it remains for the reader to accept or reject the "behind the curtain" reality of Middle Earth and its stories.


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## Staffan (Jul 25, 2015)

MormonYoYoMan said:


> As if any husband, LDS or otherwise, would want more than one woman to tell him to pick up after himself!
> 
> (Old thread, but it's OK since this is an old joke.)




That is some impressive thread necromancy.

As for the original topic of the thread: there's a difference between "influenced by" and "based on." It's fair to say that both Dragonlance and Battlestar Galactica falls in the first category.


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## AmazingCurtis (Aug 21, 2019)

Yes, Dragonlance has very clear allusions and parallels to what Latter-day Saints call "The Restoration". It was done very deliberately as designed by Tracy and Laura when they drove from Utah to work in Wisconsin (at TSR.) I was a toddler at the time, but I've heard the story often.

It's not an attempt to inject "Mormon" philosophy into fantasy, but to act as a great foundation for an epic story. That being said, I know Tracy loves to hear when people say that these books have drawn them closer to their faith, whatever faith they hold.

In the end, Margret and Tracy wrote these stories to inspire good in people (and to support their families in the process). I love and am grateful to both of them for that lasting example and those wonderful books.

-Curtis Hickman


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 21, 2019)

A 15 year old thread twice brought back to life from thread necromancy!

Anyway, I always thought the Mormon themes in Dragonlance were about as subtle as the one's in Battlestar. Inspired the source mythology but not a retelling of events like Orson Scott Card's Homecoming and Tales of Alvin Maker series.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 21, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 21, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Give the identity of the most recent necromancer, I think this is certainly one of the few examples of good death magic.




Indeed.

I'm not anti thread necromancy anyway. Some topics are just evergreen.

I do point it out to try and stave off someone quoting a years old post and expecting to get a coherent response.


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## Dioltach (Aug 21, 2019)

I'd totally read a Dragonlance novel based on the Moomins.


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## Tonguez (Aug 21, 2019)

Desdichado said:


> Just reading through the Dragonlance books (and I've really only read the original trilogy) I don't see anything that I'd point to and say, "yup, there's a Mormon doctrine right there" or anything like that.
> 
> The ethics and theology seem reasonably generic midwest American to me.




well considering that Mormon ethics are pretty much generic midwest American ethics, thats not at all suprising and indeed DL reads as 'very American" to me.




Desdichado said:


> Mostly nonsense, I'd say.  They borrowed a few titles (High Council) but they are generic enough and not used in the same sense, so it's merely swiping an appropriate handy name.  A better correllation would be between the denizens of the battlestars and the wanderings of the Children of Israel.




The connections go a lot further than that

BSG is the story of the 13 tribes which left Kobol ("The Lost Planet of Ancient Gods) and formed the 12 colonies. The thirteenth tribe having been 'lost' and is believed to have gone to the Earth. Furthermore the colonies and LDS are both governed by a president and a council or quorum of twelve. The two words "council" and "quorum" are used synonymously. Also BSG colonists use the word "seal" in preference to marriage, and a couple is sealed "not only for now but for all the eternities." (Adama in Lost Planet of Ancient Gods.) - this is directly for LDS doctrine

Commander Adama stated in one episode "Our recorded history tells us we descended from a mother colony, a race that went out into space to establish colonies. Those of us assembled here now represent the only known surviving Colonists, save one. A sister world, far out in the universe, remembered to us only through ancient writings...". 
Those ancient writings are called _The Book of The Word_ and describe the journey of man and his tribe away from Kobol to a place called Earth.

Names are also pretty relevant most notably of course Commander Adama but there is also Commander 
Cain, father of Sheeba; Lucifer, the Cylon aide to Baltar and the 'alien' charmer Iblis

Iblis is encountered in "War of the Gods". Iblis uses charm to gain control of those who choose to follow him and attempts to wrest control of the fleet from Adama. At the end of "War of the Gods, Part 2", the colonies meet with superior life forms (angels) who tell the colonist  "As you are now, we once were; as we are now, you may become" to explain the relationship between them and man which echoes LDS doctrine "As man is now, God once was; as God now is, man may become."


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## DragonsInDungeons (Aug 21, 2019)

_Dragonlance_ (which I quite like, maybe even love) is glaringly, clearly, self-evidently based directly upon Mormonism. I have riffed on it several times (I even rewrote the lyrics to a song from "The Book of Mormon" to fit Dragonlance) and will probably riff on it some more in the future. But Ellistan is very obviously Joseph Smith, and Goldmoon is very clearly (a sexy lady version of) Brigham Young, and Paladine is VERY LITERALLY Crystal Dragon Jesus.

The obviousness of the allegory for me only added charm to the setting: my ex and I played around a lot in Krynn, but we never took it entirely seriously, because of the whole Mormon angle. My campaigns tend to be heavy, my War of the Lance campaign as much as any other, so it was good to be able to take a break every so often to horse laugh at the obvious parallels to Mormonism. Also, I like Mormons.

Almost every Mormon I've ever met or had dealings with has been extraordinarily polite and decent. I will admit that the number one Mormon I'm thinking here of is the guy who fired me from Shadowrun. If I'm describing the person who _fired me from my dream job_ as "_extraordinarily polite and decent_", I think you know he's a good guy. Tracy and Laura Hickman were also super nice, but I only interacted them very briefly and in the context of being a fanboy. To quote the musical I mentioned above, "*LET'S BE REALLY FLAPJACKING POLITE TO EVERYONE*" is the LDS PR strategy and they are astonishingly good at it and to a degree it's working very well.

That said unfortunately I do have to mention that the religion of Mormonism is a hoax invented by Joseph Smith so he could have a cult of sheeple to callously exploit, and a really, painfully obvious hoax at that. "The Book of Mormon" (the musical about the hoax, not the founding document of the hoax) explains that in much more amusing terms than I ever could so watch it/listen to it if you're curious about why I would say that, unless you're already in the know.

(I was lucky enough to see it on Broadway with the original cast. When we were exiting through the lobby, there were Mormons there, handing out leaflets. "You've seen the play! Now read the book!"...something like that. They were completely unfazed that we had all just laughed at the complete evisceration of their religion for two hours straight. They were all smiles and were genuinely nice. I honestly don't know how they do it.)

I have actually never once heard of Tolkien's work being influenced by Roman Catholicism before. Based on my (limited) understanding of the Tolkien cosmology/metaphysics, it seemed more influenced by Paganism than anything else.

_The Chronicles of Narnia _are essentially Christian propaganda aimed at children. But they're also great stories that are really important to a lot of people and their childhood memories. So I can easily forgive them their evangelical intentions because frankly, speaking as an agnostic, there are far worse memes to spread than Christianity.

Oh, and since someone mentioned the hilaribad Draygunlance (THEY ACTUALLY MISPRONOUNCE THE WORD DRAGON IN THE TRAILER GUYS I'M NOT EVEN KIDDING LOOK THAT STUFF UP) Movie, George Strayton isn't just a laughably incompetent writer and game designer with the mierdas touch. He's also a very bad person. I first became aware of his existence at a con, where my ex and I gave him a ride back to his hotel, listening to his Hollywood stories. When I was just a newb in the industry, he convinced me to write basically the entire monster manual for his game The Secret Fire...for just $150...in just two days...on the firm promise of steady work that would eventually pay "better than WotC", "starting at seven cents per word".

I was young enough and naive enough and hungry enough to fall for it. He successfully exploited his monster manual out of me. When I started asking about the additional work that would pay very well that he'd promised, he suddenly disappeared. At least I got a credit in his terribad game's rulebook.


Watch the language, please.


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## Parmandur (Aug 21, 2019)

DragonsInDungeons said:


> _Dragonlance_ (which I quite like, maybe even love) is glaringly, clearly, self-evidently based directly upon Mormonism. I have riffed on it several times (I even rewrote the lyrics to a song from "The Book of Mormon" to fit Dragonlance) and will probably riff on it some more in the future. But Ellistan is very obviously Joseph Smith, and Goldmoon is very clearly (a sexy lady version of) Brigham Young, and Paladine is VERY LITERALLY Crystal Dragon Jesus.
> 
> The obviousness of the allegory for me only added charm to the setting: my ex and I played around a lot in Krynn, but we never took it entirely seriously, because of the whole Mormon angle. My campaigns tend to be heavy, my War of the Lance campaign as much as any other, so it was good to be able to take a break every so often to horse laugh at the obvious parallels to Mormonism. Also, I like Mormons.
> 
> ...




Tolkien's work is Neo-Platonist, via St. Augustine. Hence, Catholic.


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## Morrus (Aug 21, 2019)

The only thing I know about Mormonism is because I saw _The Book of Mormon_ in London with my dad last year. Any DL connection with it passed me by completely. It's my favourite D&D setting, and I associated Fizban with Merlin/Gandalf.


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## Morrus (Aug 21, 2019)

DragonsInDungeons said:


> "*LET'S BE REALLY naughty word POLITE TO EVERYONE*" is
> 
> (THEY ACTUALLY MISPRONOUNCE THE WORD DRAGON IN THE TRAILER GUYS I'M NOT EVEN KIDDING LOOK THAT naughty word UP)




Watch your language, please. This is a kid-friendly site.


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## Legatus Legionis (Aug 22, 2019)

.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 22, 2019)

I just realized this thread was started while I was


Legatus_Legionis said:


> As much as I would love to see a DragonLance trilogy of movies based off the best selling Chronicles (think Lord of the Rings, only not so dark)...
> 
> Due to the number of stories and complexity, I think a Game of Thrones type TV series would be best (except for how they ended GoT, now that was Horrible).




With The Wheel of Time and the Witcher getting series I could see this happening. Does Hulu have a fantasy series yet?


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## PabloM (Aug 22, 2019)

Morrus said:


> (...) Other than that it's just one of those "American words I've heard but have no context for."




Oh, I hear you...



Morrus said:


> So any DL connection with it passed me by completely. It's my favourite D&D setting, and I associated Fizban with Merlin/Gandalf.




...I really, really hear you.


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## PabloM (Aug 22, 2019)

AmazingCurtis said:


> Yes, Dragonlance has very clear allusions and parallels to what Latter-day Saints call "The Restoration". It was done very deliberately as designed by Tracy and Laura when they drove from Utah to work in Wisconsin (at TSR.) I was a toddler at the time, but I've heard the story often.
> 
> It's not an attempt to inject "Mormon" philosophy into fantasy, but to act as a great foundation for an epic story. That being said, I know Tracy loves to hear when people say that these books have drawn them closer to their faith, whatever faith they hold.
> 
> ...




Thank you for sharing this, it is always a pleasure to know a little more about how the Krynn principle was cooked.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 22, 2019)

Even if it is so what? D&D has biblical references in it, resurrection, sticks to snakes, walk on water etc.

 As long as something isn't to on the nose about it or is upfront about it if it is eh. 

 Dragonlance lost me after the second cataclysm.


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## ParanoydStyle (Aug 22, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Watch your language, please. This is a kid-friendly site.




My apologies. I had grown reliant upon the substitution filter and thought the relevant part of the word would become smiley faces, like they did on the old forums.

That said it is pretty hard to discuss anything related to the musical The Book of Mormon in a way that is swear free or kid friendly, as I'm sure you know since you've seen it.

I'll be more careful in the future.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 22, 2019)

No filter lol.

 Kids these days are using the F bomb. Hell they were using it when I was a kid.


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## ParanoydStyle (Aug 22, 2019)

I do have the most incurable potty mouth of anyone I've ever met, so if I do slip again please know it's not me defying Morrus, just like I said, a slip. But I'll try to avoid any slips. (LOL after saying that I dropped an f bomb in this very post but I caught it and went back and edited it lol.)



Zardnaar said:


> Even if it is so what? D&D has biblical references in it, resurrection, sticks to snakes, walk on water etc.
> 
> As long as something isn't to on the nose about it or is upfront about it if it is eh.




The so what is that, while as I said, anecdotally every Mormon I've ever met was super nice, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints really doesn't have a great track record ("I BELIEVE IN 1978 GOD CHANGED HIS MIND ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE" to quote the musical), plus there's that whole effed up polygamy compound life thing which I've watched several documentaries on. Now, virtually every Christian sect has done horrible things in their history. All that's unique about LDS is that they've done deplorable stuff (again, mainly referring to the fundies living on the compounds with like 86 wives) within the last century.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 22, 2019)

ParanoydStyle said:


> I do have the most incurable potty mouth of anyone I've ever met, so if I do slip again please know it's not me defying Morrus, just like I said, a slip. But I'll try to avoid any slips. (LOL after saying that I dropped an f bomb in this very post but I caught it and went back and edited it lol.)
> 
> 
> 
> The so what is that, while as I said, anecdotally every Mormon I've ever met was super nice, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints really doesn't have a great track record ("I BELIEVE IN 1978 GOD CHANGED HIS MIND ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE" to quote the musical), plus there's that whole effed up polygamy compound life thing which I've watched several documentaries on. Now, virtually every Christian sect has done horrible things in their history. All that's unique about LDS is that they've done deplorable stuff (again, mainly referring to the fundies living on the compounds with like 86 wives) within the last century.




 That's why I said be upfront. If you don't like it don't buy in. 

 I'm not religious myself but a lot if religious stuff makes great fantasy stories, movies etc.


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## Umbran (Aug 22, 2019)

ParanoydStyle said:


> The so what is that, while as I said, anecdotally every Mormon I've ever met was super nice, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints really doesn't have a great track record ....





I think it is time for you to read the Terms and Rules.

Specifically, in the section *Keep it on topic:* _"And in this category I should mention the "no religion, no politics" rule -- please refrain from discussion of a religious or political nature. This last may seem a rather draconic rule, but it has helped keep the peace around here for a long time. "_

Let me make this clear, to everyone - *This thread is not an invitation to point out bad things about a religion.*  Please, do not continue to do so.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 22, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Dragonlance lost me after the second cataclysm.



Likewise.


Zardnaar said:


> I'm not religious myself but a lot if religious stuff makes great fantasy stories, movies etc.



This is why I prefer the term Mythology (and mormonism absolutely has a mythology). You can look at how Mormon Mythology influenced games, books, movies, tv etc without discussing religions specifically or in general just like we can talk about Hercules, Thor, Samson, and Goliath without talking about the merits or pitfalls of Greco or Norse paganism or Judaism.

For example. I think Tolkien's Legendarium is an amazing blend of Catholic outlook and Northern European myth and I think that is part of its enduring appeal.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 22, 2019)

ParanoydStyle said:


> Now, virtually every Christian sect has done horrible things in their history. All that's unique about LDS is that they've done deplorable stuff (again, mainly referring to the fundies living on the compounds with like 86 wives) within the last century.




That's not unique. However this is the wrong place for me to detail out other sects and religions deplorable stuff from the last few decades. A few moments of reflection should bring some to mind. But this is the last I'll mention it.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 22, 2019)

BookBarbarian said:


> Likewise.
> 
> This is why I prefer the term Mythology (and mormonism absolutely has a mythology). You can look at how Mormon Mythology influenced games, books, movies, tv etc without discussing religions specifically or in general just like we can talk about Hercules, Thor, Samson, and Goliath without talking about the merits or pitfalls of Greco or Norse paganism or Judaism.
> 
> For example. I think Tolkien's Legendarium is an amazing blend of Catholic outlook and Northern European myth and I think that is part of its enduring appeal.




 I generally only use mythology on extinct religions, it's just a respect thing for people who are religious. 

 The had a 3pp biblical 3E setting. Might have been called Testament or something like that. IDK if it's any good or not but it's upfront about what it is. 

 Tolkeins a good example, wasn't aware Hickman's was a Mormon. I knew BSG free more heavily on the book of Mormon.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 22, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I generally only use mythology on extinct religions, it's just a respect thing for people who are religious.




This is tricky due to modern revivals such Asatru or Odinism. What was once ancient is again sacred to living people.

This is why I try to separate even an active religion's _myths _from a member of said religions _beliefs _and even further from a church's _practices._ So I can discuss the former alone and respect or honestly ignore the latter two.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 22, 2019)

BookBarbarian said:


> This is tricky due to modern revivals such Asatru or Odinism. What was once ancient is again sacred to living people.
> 
> This is why I try to separate even an active religion's _myths _from a member of said religions _beliefs _and even further from a church's _practices._ So I can discuss the former alone and respect or honestly ignore the latter two.




 True but there's not really enough if them and the revivals are probably not that authentic compared to the originals. 

 I know they're reviving some of the Roman ones as well,I think Sol Invictus is one.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> True but there's not really enough if them and the revivals are probably not that authentic compared to the originals.




Even though I agree with you, I think that statement could very well be likely to come off as disrespectful to a member of such a revival.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 23, 2019)

There are tons of fantasy works influenced by religion. Lord of the Rings, Narnia, The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, and so on. Not surprised that Dragonlance follows suit. Though certainly, as a kid I didn’t grok to that (nor, honestly, as an adult, when I re-read the first two trilogies a few years ago).

As an aside, I’ve been thinking about running the original Dragonlance modules…if I can find away to uncouple them from the railroad, and allow the players to run their own characters.


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## S'mon (Aug 23, 2019)

There's Mormon influence in Dragonlance the way there's Christian influence in The Terminator.

Which is to say, some.


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## Umbran (Aug 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> True but there's not really enough if them and the revivals are probably not that authentic compared to the originals.




Um... yeah, that's not good logic.  "There aren't many of you, so I don't have to give you respect," seems practical, but in form it is saying that minority people don't matter, and that's problematic.

So, you know, maybe it is better to at least try to be respectful, in general.


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## Kaodi (Aug 23, 2019)

At a minimum I would suggest that dead religions pass into the commons. Reviving a religion and claiming other people should not talk unfavourably about the object of that religion (historically worshiped gods or concepts) is akin to walking into common land, putting some stakes down, and then telling everyone else to keep their mitts off what "belongs" to _you_.


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## Umbran (Aug 23, 2019)

Kaodi said:


> At a minimum I would suggest that dead religions pass into the commons.




This is really beyond the scope of these boards.  

For our purposes, what matters is Wheaton's Law: Don't be a jerk.  Just remember that there are real humans involved, and those people can feel hurt rather like you can if someone is a jerk to you, about something you hold dear.


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## Tonguez (Aug 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> True but there's not really enough if them and the revivals are probably not that authentic compared to the originals.
> 
> I know they're reviving some of the Roman ones as well,I think Sol Invictus is one.



Authenticity is a bit tricky when it comes to religion though, afterall modern Christianity bears little resemblance to early Christian practice, yet it is still authentic to the believers.

As to Mythology, academically the term refers to the  collective stories of a culture whereas religion refers to specific beliefs and rituals - thus it is possible to talk about Christian mythology vs Christian religious belief/practice. 

There are still sensitivities though, mainly due to the popular derogatory use of ‘myth’ which leads some to use the term Mythos instead...


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 24, 2019)

S'mon said:


> There's Mormon influence in Dragonlance the way there's Christian influence in The Terminator.
> 
> Which is to say, some.




Now that is a pondering I have not pondered.


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## GreyLord (Sep 5, 2019)

BSG had a pretty good accounting on it's relationship to Mormon Theology...

I'm going to try to do a similar item in relation to the OP.  I feel Dragonlance is DEEPLY related to Mormon mythology and history, though it's only ONE sided and comes from Hickman.  Weis I think brought in other aspects unrelated to it and probably mellowed it out somewhat.

I'm going to put the Mormon theology stuff in quotes (as best I understand it, I apologize in advance if I get anything wrong, I am writing it trying to be fully respectful of Mormons and the LDS religion, any mistakes are simply that...mistakes on my part), and how DL relates to it below each quote.



> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints typically known as the Mormons believes that the true church was on the Earth many millennia ago.  However, as those who held the authority from heaven were removed from the Earth, and there were no longer any servants of heaven with the correct authority, that the world fell into apostasy.  This happened everywhere, not just in the Nations of the East, but also in the West.  They call this the great apostasy.  During this time period there was no authority from heaven.  There was no revelation and no speaking to or from Heaven.  In essence, the heavens were closed to man.  In 1820 a young boy named Joseph Smith prayed to know which religion was true.  At the time there were various Christian sects in the US and he did not know which one to join   He prayed and received a vision in which he said he saw two personages.  This created the idea of a Father and a Son as two different individuals or beings.  It was not this that started his religion, it was several years AFTERWARDS in which he saw an angel and eventually a set of Gold Plates.  From these Gold plates he translated a Book called The Book of Mormon.  This led to him asking questions and eventually getting authority returned from Heaven.  He (and others who followed him) thus became those who could ask and talk with heaven and the power and authority was returned.




In Dragonlance we have the Cataclysm.  In the Cataclysm, if you read the Legends trilogy you find out that those who could actually speak for the Pantheon in Krynn were literally removed.  Those who were arrogant and took power on themselves lost the ability or power to call down Clerical spells, but those who actually good priests literally were taken away.  This loss of authority created a period where there was no one that could speak or call down spells.  In essence, they had lost the authority.

This is equivalent to the Great Apostasy in Mormon theology, but is called the Cataclysm in Dragonlance (that and of course the actual physical disaster, which in some ways could also be seen as a similarity to the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.  The similarities in the Legends Trilogy in Istar compared to Rome are pretty prevalent).

The start of the return of Clerical powers is then heralded by a Vision (just like a Vision is the item that kicks off the return of it in Mormon theology).  This Vision starts a quest (and there was a similar quest in Mormon Theology, though it didn't have to do with dungeons or dragons or a party, it was more visiting a hill and getting instructions of some sort for several years).  The party gets a set of plates which restores the faith and belief of the Dragonlance Pantheon.  As some have referred to, there are Various Clerics (Goldmoon, Elistan) to which a more detailed analysis can be applied to.

Thus, you have the story of the lost of a faith (cataclysm/apostasy) the vision, finding the plates or book, and the restoration after a long time of Faith and Authority.

If we go even further, as the reason that it was returned was due to those seeking truth (in Dragonlance, one of the big premises is that the party at the beginning had been seeking the truth or true gods, where as with Joseph Smith it was him asking about which religion to join) you can see even greater parallels of the overarching story of the first book of the Dragonlance Trilogy compared to the Joseph Smith story.

This is actually once again REPEATED in the Mina Trilogy (or War of Lost Souls trilogy) but in a little more convoluted way.  Once again the Pantheon of Dragonlance have disappeared, but a messenger comes bringing back the power, authority, and miracles of them.  She literally is defeating the Dragons that have come to roost and control Krynn with the loss of the Pantheon, using the Clerical powers to defeat them.



> Mormons used to believe in the idea that man could eventually become like God.  That man was a spiritual child of God the Father.  As Children of God the Father, they were also thus spiritual brothers and sisters to Jesus Christ.  As such, they could inherit a reward if they righteous to be joint-heirs with Christ.




This idea is also seen twice in Dragonlance, though respectively it can also be seen as a D&D meme that has been going on for awhile.  Raistlin is the first of these where he has aspired to gain the Power of Takhisis.  He literally wants to become part of the Dragonlance Pantheon, or to replace it.  We find out in Legends that he actually can accomplish this goal, though because he does not have anything to balance this out (another Mormon item that is part of Dragonlance that I'll bring out below), all he does is destroy rather than create.  

Mina moreso fulfills this destiny (which is kind of weird as with her trilogy it is by Wies and not Hickman) in that she literally also joins the Pantheon.  IN a way it is seen that it is because she is a child of the deities in some weird way,a nd thus it is her right or heritage that she can do so.  

Though we see this in D&D occasionally (see Midnight and the Forgotten Realms, Cyric, and others, and especially the Baldur's Gate trilogy) this is directly reflected by what used to be in Mormon theology (though I have not heard of it really being taught or broadcast recently, so this seems like it may have changed).



> Mormons have a believe that there must be opposition in all things.  Everything has an opposite and can only exist if that opposite also exists.  Thus, there must be a balance.  Light has darkness, Good has evil, Hot has cold, etc...etc...etc




This is probably the one item I dislike about Dragonlance (as I personally disagree with it, but I won't go into that here) but which you see VERY prevalently in Dragonlance.  If there is one Mormon Belief pushed strongly in Dragonlance it is this idea that there has to be balance.  The Evil side always wants to squash this, but the good guys almost never want to destroy evil, they just want to ensure there is a balance between good and evil instead.  

I don't recall the need of this balance idea really existing in D&D that much (of course, much of this is anecdotal on my part) PRIOR to Dragonlance becoming a thing.  It became a much bigger deal afterwards, and even focused on in 2e in the alignment area of how Neutrals could act.

This can be seen as a very LARGE focus between the very origins of WHY the wars of Dragonlance occur and WHY the basis between how the Pantheons act towards each other and towards the inhabitants of Krynn occur.

So, I've outline what I see as some of the MAJOR Mormon influences on Dragonlance above, and I'd say that these influences are pretty major plot and story points for those Dragonlance books written by Hickman and Weis.  Hopefully that explains why Dragonlance is seen by many as having a very heavy Mormon influence.

I DO really enjoy Dragonlance, it is probably one of my favorite D&D campaign settings, but my love of Dragonlance really has nothing to do with the influence of Mormonism on it and more simply because I enjoyed the stories overall and the organizations (Knights of Solamnia, Holy Order of the Stars, Wizards of High Sorcery, etc).


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## BookBarbarian (Sep 5, 2019)

@GreyLord That's a nice analysis.

The only thing I would add is the Mormon belief that balance is necessary in all things only applies to things of this life and this world. In Mormon mythos eventually evil will have served it's purpose (temptation) and goodness is ultimately and permanently rewarded.

And I agree that while the Mormon mythos is prevalent in the  events and backdrop of Dragonlance. What largely sets the setting apart has little to do with that.


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## Umbran (Sep 5, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> I don't recall the need of this balance idea really existing in D&D that much (of course, much of this is anecdotal on my part) PRIOR to Dragonlance becoming a thing.




For what it is worth:

"The druid is a sub-class of clerics.  They are the only absolute neutrals (see alignment), viewing good and evil, law and chaos, as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things."
-AD&D PHB, Pg 20, 1978

"True Neutral": the "true" neutral looks upon all other alignments as facets of the system of things.  Thus, each aspect - evil and good, chaos and law - of things must be retained in balance to maintain the status quo; for things as they are cannot be improved upon except temporarily, and even then but superficially.  Nature will prevail and keep things as they were meant to be, provided the "wheel" surrounding the hub of nature does not become unbalanced due to the work of unnatural forces - such as human and other intelligent creatures interfering with what is meant to be."
-AD&D PHB, pg 33, 1978


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 26, 2020)

deleted


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## Bohandas (May 27, 2020)

BookBarbarian said:


> This is tricky due to modern revivals such Asatru or Odinism. What was once ancient is again sacred to living people.




Speaking as a member of the Chruch of the SubGenius, which also venerates Wotan (as well as more of less every other moldy old pagan god, plus some of the eastern gods, and also the abrahamic god whom it identifies with both Wotan and Ra, although what it ultimately worships is the ideals of humor and eccentricity) I think you're being too serious.


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## Gradine (May 27, 2020)

Umbran said:


> For what it is worth:
> 
> "The druid is a sub-class of clerics.  They are the only absolute neutrals (see alignment), viewing good and evil, law and chaos, as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things."
> -AD&D PHB, Pg 20, 1978
> ...




Also: Mordenkainen. Or was his whole "balance" shtick a post-Gygax development?


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## BookBarbarian (Jun 1, 2020)

Bohandas said:


> Speaking as a member of the Chruch of the SubGenius, which also venerates Wotan (as well as more of less every other moldy old pagan god, plus some of the eastern gods, and also the abrahamic god whom it identifies with both Wotan and Ra, although what it ultimately worships is the ideals of humor and eccentricity) I think you're being too serious.



Perhaps I was being too serious in August of last year. I don't remember.


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