# Water Puzzle



## Quickleaf (Feb 2, 2010)

I'm looking for inspiration to design a water-based puzzle, a more complex version of the water jug puzzle in Die Hard, which involves the whole party. 

The story is the PCs journey to a flooded ruin to recover a lost crown. For this encounter they reach a waterworks control room of sorts and need to move water around flooded chambers to move onward. I'm planning on it being a solo puzzle, coupled with a skill challenge involving the ghostly guardian.

Any links or ideas are appreciated.


----------



## malraux (Feb 2, 2010)

The 3,5,8 one is relatively common, so I wouldn't recommend that.  A quick google reveals that 5, 11, 13, and 24 also work; actually, any 4 numbers that a relatively prime will work.  The Three Jugs Problem. Introduction & a story from Interactive Mathematics Miscellany and Puzzles


----------



## Asmor (Feb 2, 2010)

What if it weren't water? It could be acid, lava, sewage, oil (with flames or sparks in strategic places), blood with some sort of evil enchantment...


----------



## Nymrohd (Feb 2, 2010)

Asmor said:


> What if it weren't water? It could be acid, lava, sewage, oil (with flames or sparks in strategic places), blood with some sort of evil enchantment...




Hmm how about making it a bit more evil?
They reach a point with three rooms; one has the central controls and the other has a single valve each. There is an inscription suggesting that they open them all concurrently, so likely they will split in the three rooms. THen when they do so, the rooms shut down and start flooding. You need to solve a water puzzle to get all three rooms to open but moving the water from room to room takes time and will force the players in that room to make Endurance checks so as not to drown.


----------



## Asmor (Feb 2, 2010)

Another idea... There are three fountains, with red, yellow and blue liquids in each. The red and yellow liquids, when combined, form lava (orange). The yellow and blue when combined form acid (green). The red and blue form a cold, viscous purple concoction which puts out fires, cools down the lava, and neutralizes the acid (i.e. it's a "reset button")

There is something they need to burn through, but it's made of wood and if they use the lava it will start a fire. Then there's a crucible attached to a pulley; the other liquids are not dense enough to weigh down the crucible, only the lava will suffice.


----------



## Pyrex (Feb 2, 2010)

Another option is to layer the puzzle a little differently.

If it's a waterworks, with cisterns, pipes, flooded rooms & passages, you could layer it closer to a Towers of Hanoi puzzle instead where the character manning the controls has to shift the water around to enable progress.  

Some tunnels might have pressure doors that will always be underwater, but can only be opened if the pressure on either side is equal, long passageways might have to be drained before the party traverses them (because low-con characters can't hold their breath that long), but in order to drain it you have to find somewhere to put the water that won't block the pressure door, etc.


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 2, 2010)

malraux said:


> The 3,5,8 one is relatively common, so I wouldn't recommend that.  A quick google reveals that 5, 11, 13, and 24 also work; actually, any 4 numbers that a relatively prime will work.  The Three Jugs Problem. Introduction & a story from Interactive Mathematics Miscellany and Puzzles



Thanks for that link...the 4 jugs puzzle is fairly interesting, but I can't find a solution for it on the internet. I'm assuming that since the smallest vessel is 5 units, and you have 24 units to split evenly among 4 vessels that 4 units have to be dumped. I'll keep puzzling it over, but if it takes me a while it might be too complex for the game.



Nymrohd said:


> Hmm how about making it a bit more evil?
> They reach a point with three rooms; one has the central controls and the other has a single valve each. There is an inscription suggesting that they open them all concurrently, so likely they will split in the three rooms. THen when they do so, the rooms shut down and start flooding. You need to solve a water puzzle to get all three rooms to open but moving the water from room to room takes time and will force the players in that room to make Endurance checks so as not to drown.



Yep, I was thinking something similar, though 4e's rule about holding your breath for 3 minutes makes it somewhat difficult (I guess the water could take a long time to move from room to room). I'm brainstorming ways to combine this with what Pyrex suggests.



Asmor said:


> Another idea... There are three fountains, with red, yellow and blue liquids in each. The red and yellow liquids, when combined, form lava (orange). The yellow and blue when combined form acid (green). The red and blue form a cold, viscous purple concoction which puts out fires, cools down the lava, and neutralizes the acid (i.e. it's a "reset button")
> 
> There is something they need to burn through, but it's made of wood and if they use the lava it will start a fire. Then there's a crucible attached to a pulley; the other liquids are not dense enough to weigh down the crucible, only the lava will suffice.



Nice twist.  I like the idea of reaching different areas via certain combinations, kind of like unlocking parts of a maze.




Pyrex said:


> Another option is to layer the puzzle a little differently.
> 
> If it's a waterworks, with cisterns, pipes, flooded rooms & passages, you could layer it closer to a Towers of Hanoi puzzle instead where the character manning the controls has to shift the water around to enable progress.
> 
> Some tunnels might have pressure doors that will always be underwater, but can only be opened if the pressure on either side is equal, long passageways might have to be drained before the party traverses them (because low-con characters can't hold their breath that long), but in order to drain it you have to find somewhere to put the water that won't block the pressure door, etc.



That's totally what I envisioning, coupled with a flooding chamber trap element. However, I'm trying to avoid the "one PC left behind to man the controls" type of puzzle since I'll be using one like that later in the adventure borrowed from Dragon Age.

I'll keep working at it and post when I come up with something.


----------



## malraux (Feb 3, 2010)

Quickleaf said:


> Thanks for that link...the 4 jugs puzzle is fairly interesting, but I can't find a solution for it on the internet. I'm assuming that since the smallest vessel is 5 units, and you have 24 units to split evenly among 4 vessels that 4 units have to be dumped. I'll keep puzzling it over, but if it takes me a while it might be too complex for the game.




Well, with the three jug problem, you divide it into 2.  So for the 4 jug problem, you divide the volumes into 3, ie fill each of the three jugs with 6 units.


----------



## GnomeWorks (Feb 3, 2010)

You could look into the various water dungeons from the Legend of Zelda games. I don't know if they fit the "water jug" idea, but I've found them to be rather solid inspiration when trying to design a water-themed dungeon.


----------



## megamania (Feb 3, 2010)

Series of traped / locked doors that seperate rooms with air or limited air.  This forces PCs to to constantly be on the go.  Sources of air could be creatively hidden also.


----------



## Aberzanzorax (Feb 3, 2010)

Three ideas:

1. What about locks? Like the panama canal kind?

2. I used to play a fun and simple computer game with "circuits" you had to change where the energy flowed by turning specific "pipes". This could be that as well.

3. I loved the idea of a maze. People often forget, when using water, how easy it is to go in three dimensions. I'm thinking of Zelda here, or ratchet and clank, where you need to empty rooms, or fill them to swim or use floaties to get from point a to point b.


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 3, 2010)

malraux said:


> Well, with the three jug problem, you divide it into 2.  So for the 4 jug problem, you divide the volumes into 3, ie fill each of the three jugs with 6 units.



Well, for the more complex one that malraux pointed out, the jugs are 5, 11, 13, and 24. The 24 starts totally full and you have to split the water evenly between 4 people. Since the smallest jug is 5, that's the max amount that can be in any jug, so you end up using 20 out of 24, which leaves remainder of 4.



GnomeWorks said:


> You could look into the various water dungeons from the Legend of Zelda games. I don't know if they fit the "water jug" idea, but I've found them to be rather solid inspiration when trying to design a water-themed dungeon.



I've actually never played the Zelda games. What were the water-dungeon puzzles like?



megamania said:


> Series of traped / locked doors that seperate rooms with air or limited air.  This forces PCs to to constantly be on the go.  Sources of air could be creatively hidden also.



Yeah, I've been thinking of hiding an air elemental somewhere in the dungeon.

So I'm still brainstorming, but did some quick and dirty computer sketches to get a feel for what I'm trying to accomplish. Ideally it will be a logic/maze puzzle with flooding chamber type consequences (or other devious hazards like asmor suggested  ) that involves the whole party simultaneously.


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 3, 2010)

Aberzanzorax said:


> 1. What about locks? Like the panama canal kind?



Yeah, that's what I was thinking about too. According to wikipedia the locks can drain/fill in 8 minutes (with significant shaking), in from the lake or out to the ocean. Only these would be completely underwater.



> 2. I used to play a fun and simple computer game with "circuits" you had to change where the energy flowed by turning specific "pipes". This could be that as well.



I remember seeing that game once...did the direction of flow matter?



> 3. I loved the idea of a maze. People often forget, when using water, how easy it is to go in three dimensions. I'm thinking of Zelda here, or ratchet and clank, where you need to empty rooms, or fill them to swim or use floaties to get from point a to point b.



Totally! I've never done a maze like this for the group before. It takes quite a bit of planning, and I hope I can pull it off.

Btw, here's the ghostly guardian skill challenge I mentioned....
[sblock=Ghostly Guardian]
*Ghostly Guardian*
Primary Skills (DC 20): Bluff, Diplomacy, History, Insight, Intimidate, Religion

0-1 successes: _We have been betrayed! As the flood descends upon us, our check dams and waterworks have been sabotaged. I warned the king against harboring the redcoat defectors – those treacherous bastards were planning this since the first minute they were welcomed in! I will at least have the satisfaction of trapping them in the fortress with us to share our fate._

2-3 successes: _Most of the waterworks have been flooded. I sealed in several injured workers in the north eastern hall – it may only prolong their death, but at least it will buy them time. I alone must ensure the crown remains safe. I must perform the ritual and summon the air elemental from below._

4-5 successes: _The four keys of the fortress have been given to custodians who shall escape by griffon and live to tell our tragic tale. To prevent the crown from reaching the empire’s hands, it has been entrusted to the oracle who has foreseen that it will be lost for four generations before being found by heroes. I cannot stand idly by and let this misguided oracle allow the crown to be consumed by the flood. I must reach the oracle’s aerie and stop her._

6-7 successes:  _Ghost-stones guard the way to the oracle’s aerie, their arcane pattern governed by a simple rule: the left hand takes the ephemeral from the right hand and makes it tangible._

8-9 successes: _Now the oracle’s blood stains my hands. Her dying spell has confounded me, for where there was one crown now there are eight. I gaze into her pool hoping to learn the truth, and I behold the fall of the empire driven by the loss of the crown. The oracle was right. This pool, these waters, they have become my fetter, and I am bound to them until the crown is restored._

10+ successes: _I was wrong, and I have condemned innocents to die. It was not the redcoat defectors who damned the fortress to a watery grave, rather the headwaters of the river were moved. One of our own custodians, Count Ekhardt of Lorsaive, has betrayed us. I was appointed the guardian of this fortress, but in its final hour I have proven myself a monster. It is time for me to meet my fate in the hereafter. I entrust you heroes with the banner of Amanteur._
[/sblock]


----------



## Aeolius (Feb 3, 2010)

You want a lock? Try the Falkirk Wheel

Aside from also thinking of the waterworks in "City of Ember", I'd be tempted to use equipment from saltwater aquariums as an inspiration; reverse osmosis/deionization filters, protein skimmers, calcium reactors, chillers, CO2 injectors, ozonizers, UV sterilizers, supplement dosing units, etc etc...


----------



## malraux (Feb 3, 2010)

Quickleaf said:


> Well, for the more complex one that malraux pointed out, the jugs are 5, 11, 13, and 24. The 24 starts totally full and you have to split the water evenly between 4 people. Since the smallest jug is 5, that's the max amount that can be in any jug, so you end up using 20 out of 24, which leaves remainder of 4.




Divided among 3 people, not 4.


> It precedes another problem with 4 jugs of capacities 5, 11, 13, and 24 for which a solution "can be worked out only by trial." The problem is presented by the narrative:
> *Three men* robbed a gentleman of a vase, containing 24 ounces of balsam. Whilst running away they met a glass seller, of whom they purchased three vessels. On reaching a place of safety they wished to divide the booty, but found that their vessels could hold 5, 11, and 13 ounces respectively. How could they divide the balsam into equal portions?


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 3, 2010)

Aeolius said:


> You want a lock? Try the Falkirk Wheel
> Aside from also thinking of the waterworks in "City of Ember", I'd be tempted to use equipment from saltwater aquariums as an inspiration; reverse osmosis/deionization filters, protein skimmers, calcium reactors, chillers, CO2 injectors, ozonizers, UV sterilizers, supplement dosing units, etc etc...



Now that's a lock! I'll have to check out City of Ember, thanks for the tip.



malraux said:


> Divided among 3 people, not 4.



Ack! Good catch malraux!

I was tinkering around in sketchup drying to visualize the maze/puzzle, and attached my preliminary attempt. I guess I can be pretty chaotic when designing adventures, throwing things together in a big jumble then trying to make sense of it all. 

Anyhow, thanks for all the input so far! Keep it coming!


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 3, 2010)

I came up with this as the almost end goal of the puzzle: The aquifers act as a lock system, and only once the 3 chambers have balance water pressure do the pressure gates open, allowing PCs into the big chamber where they find the master controls. There they can fill the big chamber, using a floatie to reach the new high ground.

It's still too much of a direct translation of the water jugs puzzle to be very interesting, but it's what I've got so far. I'll come back to this once I have time to think about it some more.


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 5, 2010)

I just read a good set of articles about puzzles over here by Martin (treasuretables) & WeaveWarden (Myth-Weavers).

Two points struck me about the article. First, a puzzle should have a work around, either because it's a side quest, there's an "escape hatch", or it is used to make the PCs path easier (e.g. disabling a death trap). In other words, the puzzle may be helpful, but ultimately optional. Second, the point was made about avoiding obvious puzzles for the sake of puzzles, but to weave them into the story. 

Since I've been having trouble designing this puzzle, I decided it would be better to try a new approach.

Tir Amanteur was a large stronghold at the base of the Serpentback Mountains, bordering the River Eolus. It straddled a stream and was known for its extensive moat, canal, and bridge system by which water could be diverted from the stream to block off certain areas in case of invasion. The Evhendin family ruled from here until retreating forces of King Arnrohd sought refuge; the King was fighting for the freedom of the kingdom from imperial rule. It was at Tir Amanteur that he forged alliances with dwarves, elves, eladrin, and other races (who had historically been hurt by human rule), and began reforming his army to challenge the empire. However, before his plans could reach fruition Tir Amanteur was drowned when the River Eolus shifted (imperial saboteurs used explosives near the headwaters). Many were killed and became deep wraiths; a select few escaped by griffon. In the process the King's magic crown was lost within the stronghold.

Besides the towers, the only area not destroyed was the waterworks control chamber, where engineers could open/close various check dams to power watermills, provide water to baths, and flood concentric ringed ditches for defense. It is this chamber that the PCs will try to access because (a) they'll be able to access more of the ruins by draining flooded chambers, and (b) there's a map of the fortress there.


----------



## TimTheUnready (Feb 1, 2014)

*Underwater Pyramid*

I have been working on a an inverted Pyramid idea (a pyramid buildt into the ground rather than up) , the Pyramid was semi- flooded long ago when an earthquake broke the walls and allowed a lake to flood in. Now the resident pharaoh mummy has teamed up with the mad goddess of the underwater lake to kill and enslave any tomb robbers. On top of the traps, I have been trying to think of various good water puzzles that could be used. I came up with one which I quite like, its a room that is semi flooded, with water chariot riding skeletons (they are on floating boards that the charioteer moves around while the other one shoots with a long bow. Once heroes kill guardians they discover a quest item (part of an amulet they need) stuck to a fixing in the opposite wall, this can only be released by the pressing of a switch hidden on the underside of the platform near the fixing. To press the switch the have to discover that one of the floating platforms is connected to another platform submerged under the switch, they have to dive down and remove weights from the submerged platform, attach them to the floating one and then through the counter weight the previously submerged platform will press up against the switch (realising the amulet). I alto thought about having a valve hidden in the depths as well which would flood the room below thus opening up new options.


----------

