# Medieval-era riverboats?



## NewJeffCT (May 29, 2008)

my googling skills aren't very good - but, I'm looking for info on what sort of ships/boats a merchant would use to transport goods upriver? When looking up "medieval riverboats" on google, I got a bunch of tours of historical sites in Europe by boat.

But, would sort of boat would be used to transport a decent amount of cargo up a river - more than could be taken by horse & wagon?  

I keep thinking some sort of raft, but I also thought that there has to be more than that, no?  Would it just be a simple large raft that a couple of guys with poles push up the river?  I just wanted to see if there would actually be a crew of people, or just a couple of guys to make sure they don't run aground?


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## jdrakeh (May 29, 2008)

They had river barges back then, though rather than the flat boats often depicted in films, I believe that they were large-ish constructs with a pointed aft and bow (i.e., more like a longboat). I found some old woodcuts that seem to indicate a crew of two or four:


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## NewJeffCT (May 29, 2008)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> They had river barges back then, though rather than the flat boats often depicted in films, I believe that they were large-ish constructs with a pointed aft and bow (i.e., more like a longboat). I found some old woodcuts that seem to indicate a crew of two or four:




Thanks


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## Andor (May 29, 2008)

Canal boat I know were frequently 'powered' by mules on the bank pulling the barge along on a tether. I imagine draft animals were also used where the banks made it practical along rivers.

I recently saw a program on the three gorges dam that showed barges being towed over over shallow rapids by large teams of local men who depended on the barge trade for their incomes. Dangerous as hell too.


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## GrumpyOldMan (May 29, 2008)

On Hârn (and particularly in the Pilots Almanac) these river boats are called Talbars. You can get an idea of what they look like at this http://www.phantasia.org/miju/rpg/harn/povray/index.html site.

If you look at this site http://www.quicenter.com/harn/default_en.asp you can download the Hârn shipwright excel spreadsheet which will allow you to design a few ships. It’s easier if you have Pilots Almanac but it is not that complicated a design procedure..


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## NewJeffCT (May 30, 2008)

GrumpyOldMan said:
			
		

> On Hârn (and particularly in the Pilots Almanac) these river boats are called Talbars. You can get an idea of what they look like at this http://www.phantasia.org/miju/rpg/harn/povray/index.html site.
> 
> If you look at this site http://www.quicenter.com/harn/default_en.asp you can download the Hârn shipwright excel spreadsheet which will allow you to design a few ships. It’s easier if you have Pilots Almanac but it is not that complicated a design procedure..




Thanks - just looking for basic information as to crew and how much they can transport.


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## Aholibamah (May 30, 2008)

Here's a few ideas: a dhow like ship might have about say 25 crew that has two lateen rigged sails and needs a watch of 5. I believe they are shallow bottomed; they could carry about 60 tons. 

A longship also has a shallow draft; watch of 3 plus up to 40 rowers; cargo up to 40 tons.

Keelboats could also be used on rivers and lakes. Watch 2 plus 8 rowers; cargo 20 tons, 1 small sail.

Rafts might also be used as you said; they could probably carry about 2 tons and need 2-4 people manning th


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## Ed_Laprade (May 30, 2008)

One method used, downriver only, were logging rafts. You get a bunch (a _whole bunch_) of logs together and rope the outsiders together and pile up cargo since you're headed downstream anyway. This was done in the 15th+ Centuries, but I'm not sure when it started. Probably fairly early once the need for lumber from upstream became important.


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## GrumpyOldMan (May 31, 2008)

Another site you might want to check is Roy Denton's http://harn-fan.net/index.htm which has a more complicated version of the ship generation tools. Roy is  reknowned among HarnFans for the scholarly way he approaches his articles, using a lot of detailed research.

His (excel) ship design spreadsheet (shipbuilding) and the accompanying article (a pdf) are incredibly detailed (and FREE). They will allow you to generate ships and riverboats of custom sizes and work out crew requirements, draft (depth below the waterline) and cargo capacity.




			
				Aholibamah said:
			
		

> ...
> A longship also has a shallow draft; watch of 3 plus up to 40 rowers; cargo up to 40 tons.
> 
> Keelboats could also be used on rivers and lakes. Watch 2 plus 8 rowers; cargo 20 tons, 1 small sail...




It's improtant to mention that ship  cargo capacities were measured in tuns, not tons (though AFAIK they're pronounced the same).

A tun is a measurement of volume, a barrel containing (originally) 256 gallons of liquid, grain, whatever. If its a liquid, (like wine) then it weighs (near as dammit) a ton. Also, the measured volume is about one cubic metre (or yard if you prefer).

Aholibamah is right to mention the ton weight limits, but there will be volume limits too.
Things like wine (where 1 tun weighs 1 ton) will fill hold and ship to capacity.
Ore, lead, gold or whatever (where 1 tun weighs more than 1 ton will leave the hold part empty, but the ship will be overloaded if you fill the hold. That safe 1 foot freeboard becomes an unsafe 6" freeboard.
Lighter materials like dry cloth, grain etc. (where 1 tun weighs less than 1 ton) will fill the hold but the ship will be floating high, with possible stability problems. Of course you could put your cloth on the deck, but if it gets wet the weight will change.

Think about the adventure opportunities for green sailors (or passengers).


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## Klaus (May 31, 2008)

NewJeffCT said:
			
		

> my googling skills aren't very good - but, I'm looking for info on what sort of ships/boats a merchant would use to transport goods upriver? When looking up "medieval riverboats" on google, I got a bunch of tours of historical sites in Europe by boat.
> 
> But, would sort of boat would be used to transport a decent amount of cargo up a river - more than could be taken by horse & wagon?
> 
> I keep thinking some sort of raft, but I also thought that there has to be more than that, no?  Would it just be a simple large raft that a couple of guys with poles push up the river?  I just wanted to see if there would actually be a crew of people, or just a couple of guys to make sure they don't run aground?



 The "like a longboat" bit is right. Norse longboats and knarrs were noted for being very shallow on the underside, allowing the norsemen to go a-viking several miles inland through rivers. What differentiated them from riverboats was their seaworthiness.


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## GrumpyOldMan (Jun 1, 2008)

True, they were seaworthy, but they had to keep moving when at sea. There's a lot of interesting stuff on a recent reconstruction trip (Denmark to Dublin via the Orkney Isles) at this site http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/vikingvoyage/


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