# Converting True Dragons



## Shade (Nov 23, 2006)

This thread is a special version of the "cooperative conversions" in numerous threads, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on true dragons (dragons with age categories) that have appeared in various D&D sources throughout the years.

What I will do is first post the creature's original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it's done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and then Homebrews, and will eventually be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

The following is a list of true dragons from various D&D sources that haven't yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog. You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when. If I'm missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.  This thread is only intended for dragons with age categories; other dragons should be requested in the thread of their original sources.

Note that some creatures are listed more than once, as they appear in multiple sources.  Also, while some share the names of current official dragons, they may differ greatly and are thus fair game for conversion.

DMR2 – Creature Catalog
-Pocket
-Sea

Dragon Magazine
-Beljuril (#265)
-Bestiary (#199)
-Faerie (#62) (presented as a true dragon, rather than the Draconomicon version)
-Fire (#246)
-Gray (#146)
-Grey (#62)
-Hawkdragon (#101)
-Minidragon (#146)
-Phase (#94)
-Pocket (#170)
-Quazar (#96)(humor)
-"What's New" (#96)(humor)

MC9: Spelljammer II
-Moon
-Stellar
-Sun

MCA1
-Pearl

MCA3
-Cerilian

MCA4
-Prismatic (differs from epic version)

Mystara MC
-Crystalline
-Jade
-Onyx
-Ruby (Mystara dragon, differs from MMII gem dragons)

OD&D Master Set
-Crystal (Mystara dragon, differs from MMII gem dragons)
-Onyx
-Jade
-Sapphire (Mystara dragon, differs from MMII gem dragons)
-Ruby (Mystara dragon, differs from MMII gem dragons)
-Tiger's Eye (Brown)

Savage Coast MC
-Crimson
-Red Hawk

X6 – Quagmire!
-Pocket


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## RavinRay (Nov 23, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Dragon Magazine
> -Electrum (#74) (_already converted...I just need to upload it_)
> -Pink (#156)(humor)
> 
> ...




1. Is this electrum dragon different from Ed Greenwood's electrum dragon from _Ruins of Myth Drannor_? One has electricity-based abilities, the other I can't remember.
2. I really want to see the pink dragon as a false chromatic dragon, like Krishnath's homebrew pyrite dragon would be a false metallic dragon, and my glass dragon could be re-written as a false gem dragon.
3. The _Bestiary of Krynn_ has the amphidragon, while _Age of Mortals_ has the turtle-like sea dragon (depicted here).
4. The stellar (and radiant  - not the extraplanar dragon from Celestia) dragons ought to be epic, IMO.
5. How do we distinguish dragons that share the same name - yellow, jade (I have my own jade dragon at the WotC psionics forum), etc? Do we rename them, or add a place name?
6. I saw your amber dragon, which is different from the one I made and grouped with the pearl dragon as jewel dragons distantly related to gem dragons.

Well, that's it for now. Can't wait for your stats, that's gonna be a big job.


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## Mortis (Nov 23, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Dragon Magazine
> ...
> -Night (#74, #163)
> ...



The night dragon in 163, IMHO, would work best as a template.

Is the version in 74 the same? Haven't seen issue 74. 

The version in 163 is also in the Champions of Mystara boxed set.

Regards
Mortis


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 23, 2006)

The energy, salt, and sodium dragons are respectively, the purple, yellow, and orange dragons.  Those are in Dragon Compendium.

No, the night dragon from Dragon #74 is not the same as the Mystaran dragon.


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2006)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> 1. Is this electrum dragon different from Ed Greenwood's electrum dragon from _Ruins of Myth Drannor_? One has electricity-based abilities, the other I can't remember.
> 2. I really want to see the pink dragon as a false chromatic dragon, like Krishnath's homebrew pyrite dragon would be a false metallic dragon, and my glass dragon could be re-written as a false gem dragon.
> 3. The _Bestiary of Krynn_ has the amphidragon, while _Age of Mortals_ has the turtle-like sea dragon (depicted here).
> 4. The stellar (and radiant  - not the extraplanar dragon from Celestia) dragons ought to be epic, IMO.
> ...




Hello!

1.)  It appears to be the same.
2.)  We'll see when we get to it.    
3.)  We'll probably skip those, then.
4.)  See #2.    
5.)  We'll probably keep the original names of any dragons that don't have official 3E creatures with conficting names, go with "Mystaran" for the non-psionic gem dragons that originated in OD&D and Mystara, and rename those that are in direct conflict but don't fall under another category (i.e., prismatic might become "lesser prismatic", "spectrum" or something else).



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> The night dragon in 163, IMHO, would work best as a template.




Then we'll leave that one for another thread.



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> No, the night dragon from Dragon #74 is not the same as the Mystaran dragon.




But this one is fair game.    



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> The energy, salt, and sodium dragons are respectively, the purple, yellow, and orange dragons. Those are in Dragon Compendium.




I thought I'd get those wrong.  That means the original purple, yellow, and orange dragons might be eligible for conversion (and would need a name change).


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## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

Here are the basic conversion guidelines I'd like to follow for the true dragons.


If the dragon has all its age categories listed, we'll compare to one of the metallic or chromatics of the same era to get a baseline for Hit Dice, ability scores, etc.

Since we've yet to figure out the formula for dragon spell resistance in 3E/3.5, we'll probably just look at the old magic resistance values and find a similar metallic or chromatic dragon to use as a baseline.

If no age categories were given (as was often the case in 1E), but the creature is clearly a true dragon, we'll assume its given Hit Dice are for a juvenile and compare to a similar metallic or chromatic dragon to use as a baseline and extrapolate the other age categories.   (If I'm wrong about the juvenile age as the standard, let me know, but I found several past threads where we seemed to find this to be true).

If dragons had a kick ability in previous editions, we're dropping it, as all others have dropped them in 3E.


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## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

Let's get started....

Dragon, Neutral, Jacinth
Climate/Terrain:  Desert
Frequency:  Very Rare
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle:  Any
Diet:  Special
Intelligence:  Genius (17-18)
Treasure:  See below
Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing:  1
Armor Class:  1 (base)
Movement:  9, Fl 27(B)
Hit Dice:  9 (base)
Thac0:  13 (base)
No. of Attacks:  3 plus special
Damage/Attack:  1d6+1 (x2)/4d6
Special Attacks:  Spells, breath weapon, special
Special Defenses:  Spells, special
Magic Resistance:  See below
Size:  H-G (16' base length)
Morale:  Fanatic (17-18)
XP Value:  See below

Jacinth dragons may be the rarest of any nonunique dragon species; only a dozen at most exist on any given world.

The hide of a jacinth sparkles and shifts with many shades of flame-bright orange in seemingly constant motion.

Jacinth dragons speak their own language, and they can communicate telepathically with any other creature having that ability, as well as creatures with Intelligence of 18 or higher.

Combat:  A jacinth dragon breathes a cone of scalding air 1 foot wide at the mouth, 50 feet long, and 20 feet wide at its terminus, igniting easily combustible materials (e.g., paper, oil, and cloth) unless they successfully save vs. normal fire.  A successful save vs. breath weapon indicates, as with most dragons, that a character suffers only half damage from such an attack.

Using riddling talk and personal charm, jacinths can entrance those who are involved in combat or otherwise distracted.  Anyone within 90 feet who listens to a jacinth has a 10% cumulative chance per round to become affected as by a _suggestion_ spell.  A successful save vs. spell indicates that the character can resist the charm for at least six rounds, after which there's a 5% cumulative chance to be charmed.  Those who successfully save twice can't be charmed by that dragon.

Furthermore, the jacinth dragon has the innate ability to interplay the shades of its skin so as to have a hypnotic effect on viewers.  Thus, after three rounds of a peaceful encounter, the dragon can attack with a +3 bonus to surprise rolls if necessary.  In addition, the hide reflects sunlight so brightly that any creature who gazes for more than two rounds upon the dragon on a particularly sunny day is blinded for 5d6 rounds unless the victim rolls a successful save vs. spell.

Due to its relatively small size, the fear aura of a neutral dragon allows a +4 bonus to opponent's saving throws.  Also, neutrals cannot polymorph themselves unless they carry the spell of the same name.  However, they do have the innate ability to _blink_ six times per day (as a 10th-level caster).

Habitat/Society:  Jacinth dragons make their homes in large deserts, enjoying the hot, dry climate.  Over the years, the species has developed the ability to go for weeks without water or food.  They shun all other forms of life and enjoy their solitude, though they can at times be overly curious of visitors.

Like all dragons, jacinths have a passion for treasure, especially for the stone after which they are named.  Hence, they venture out to obtain what little treasure they have, and it is by these excursions that they are known to humans.

Ecology:  No jacinth dragon hides have ever been taken or sold.  The only creatures known to prey upon them are adventurers.

Age  Body Lgt.  Tail Lgt.  AC  Breath  Wizard/Priest Spells   MR  Treasure   XP Value
1        1-4          1-4       4    2d4      Nil                         Nil   Nil            7,000
2        5-8          5-7       3    3d4      2/1                       Nil    Nil            8,000
3        9-14         8-10     2    4d4      2 2 /2                   Nil    Nil            9,000
4        15-18       11-13   1     5d4      2 2 2 /2 1              Nil    E,T          11,000
5        19-20       14-16    0    6d4     2 2 2 2/2 2             15%  H,R,T       14,000
6        21-22       17-19   -1   7d4     2 2 2 2 2/2 2 1        20%  H,R,Tx2    15,000
7        23-26       20-22   -2   8d4     2 2 2 2 2 2/2 2 2      25%  H,R,Tx2    16,000
8        27-28       23-25   -3   9d4     2 2 2 2 2 2 2/2 2 2 1   30%  H,I,R,Tx3    17,000
9        29-30       26-28   -4   10d4   3 3 2 2 2 2 2/2 2 2 2   35%  H,I,R,Tx4    18,000
10      31-32       29-31   -5   11d4   3 3 3 3 2 2 2/2 2 2 2 1 40%  H,Ix2,R,Tx4  19,000
11      33-34       32-34   -6   12d4   3 3 3 3 3 3 2/2 2 2 2 2 45%  H,Ix2,R,Tx4  20,000
12      35-36       35-37   -7   13d4   4 4 3 3 3 3 2/3 3 3 2 2 50%  H,Ix3,R,Tx5  21,000

Source:  Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One


I don't believe these fellas appeared anywhere else.


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## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

With a base of 9 Hit Dice, no comparable metallic or chromatic dragons can be found for comparison.  Even the lowly white was base 11.   Expanding into the gem dragons and some of the misc. dragons (shadow, steel, mercury, etc.), we find none with base HD that low.

The amber dragon and vishap actually have a lower base (8 for both), and Krishnath and the team converted them to the same progression as white dragons (3-36 HD).   Any opposition to doing the same for these fellas?


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## BOZ (Nov 28, 2006)

Hawkdragon - Dragon #101


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## BOZ (Nov 28, 2006)

sorry to break the train of thought once it got moving, but i've been meaning to post that one for days.    there are probably others, when i think of them...


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## RavinRay (Nov 28, 2006)

First impressions...

Start it off at 3 HD for wyrmling. A 2d12 true dragon wyrmling seems too weak for me.
A steam breath weapon like the mist dragon and dragon turtle that deals fire damage.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> sorry to break the train of thought once it got moving, but i've been meaning to post that one for days.    there are probably others, when i think of them...




No problem.  I'll add it to the list.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> First impressions...
> 
> Start it off at 3 HD for wyrmling. A 2d12 true dragon wyrmling seems too weak for me.
> A steam breath weapon like the mist dragon and dragon turtle that deals fire damage.




OK, we'll go with the 3-36 progression.

I'll take a look at the breath weapons you mentioned.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

> A jacinth dragon breathes a cone of scalding air 1 foot wide at the mouth, 50 feet long, and 20 feet wide at its terminus, igniting easily combustible materials (e.g., paper, oil, and cloth) unless they successfully save vs. normal fire. A successful save vs. breath weapon indicates, as with most dragons, that a character suffers only half damage from such an attack.




Dragon Turtle Breath Weapon (Su): Cloud of superheated steam 20 feet high, 25 feet wide, and 50 feet long, once every 1d4 rounds, damage 12d6 fire, Reflex DC 21 half; effective both on the surface and underwater. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Mist Dragon Breath Weapon (Su): Mist dragons have two types of breath weapons: a cone of scalding steam that deals fire damage and a line of caustic slime. Creatures struck by slime must make Fortitude saves or be sickened for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon.

So how about....

Breath Weapon (Su): Jacinth dragons have one type of breath weapon, a cone of scalding air that deals fire damage and ignites any unattended combustible objects within the area.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

> Jacinth dragons speak their own language, and they can communicate telepathically with any other creature having that ability, as well as creatures with Intelligence of 18 or higher.




Telepathy to a distance of 10 feet x age category?



> Using riddling talk and personal charm, jacinths can entrance those who are involved in combat or otherwise distracted.  Anyone within 90 feet who listens to a jacinth has a 10% cumulative chance per round to become affected as by a _suggestion_ spell.  A successful save vs. spell indicates that the character can resist the charm for at least six rounds, after which there's a 5% cumulative chance to be charmed.  Those who successfully save twice can't be charmed by that dragon.




Do we want to simplify this to just having suggestion as a spell-like ability, or try to create a unique ability?



> Furthermore, the jacinth dragon has the innate ability to interplay the shades of its skin so as to have a hypnotic effect on viewers.  Thus, after three rounds of a peaceful encounter, the dragon can attack with a +3 bonus to surprise rolls if necessary.  In addition, the hide reflects sunlight so brightly that any creature who gazes for more than two rounds upon the dragon on a particularly sunny day is blinded for 5d6 rounds unless the victim rolls a successful save vs. spell.




Maybe allow the jacinth to use its Diplomacy skill instead of Bluff for feints?

How's this for the second ability?

Blinding Hide (Ex):  In areas of natural sunlight or a _daylight_ spell, a jacinth dragon's hide reflects the sun so brightly that any creature viewing the dragon must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC equals breath weapon DC) or be blinded for 5d6(?) rounds.  A creature that successfully saves is instead dazzled for 1d4(?) rounds.



> Due to its relatively small size, the fear aura of a neutral dragon allows a +4 bonus to opponent's saving throws.  Also, neutrals cannot polymorph themselves unless they carry the spell of the same name.  However, they do have the innate ability to _blink_ six times per day (as a 10th-level caster).




Krishnath chose to drop the fear aura bonus for the amber.  Do we want to retain it?  (and if so, I'll update the amber to reflect it as well).   The polymorph bit isn't an issue anymore.  Here's how Krishnath handled the blink ability:

Blink (Sp): A very young or older amber dragon can use this ability as the spell once per day for each two age categories it is, thus an adult amber dragon can use the ability three times per day. This is as the spell cast by a sorcerer of the dragon’s age category or its caster level whichever is higher. The range is personal. 

I think this works well.  Any objections?


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## RavinRay (Nov 29, 2006)

Telepathy works fine.
I'd go for _suggestion_ (Sp).
Diplomacy works better than Bluff, after all the dragon is trying to be friendly.
What's the range of Blinding Hide, is it dependent on the range of vision of the other creature?
I don't think the fear aura bonus is necessary either.
After looking at Tiny wyrmling dragons (brass, white, sapphire, mercury, and steel), all but the sapphire advance their breath weapons by only 1HD, and all except the mercury use d6 (d8 for mercury). So a jacinth dragon's breath weapon should advance by 1d6 per age category, or if you really want it weaker, 1d4.
Fire subtype? Energy immunities/vulnerabilities?


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2006)

For the subtype, I was thinking fire as well.  That will automatically give it immunity to fire and vulnerability to cold. 

Oddly, the black dragon retained its 2e breath weapon damage progression (2d4-24d4), yet the brass changed from 2d4-24d4 to 1d6-12d6.   I suppose we can go either way with it.

Good catch on blinding hide.  It should probably have a limited range.   Maybe 10 feet per age category, beginning with young (30 ft.)?

Its 2e AC progression was the same as both black and white dragons.  Now the black's natural armor bonus is 1 higher than the white at each age category.  Shall we mimic the white?

Its spellcasting is quite potent...not as good as a gold, but better than silver, red, mercury, shadow, and steel (all among the best spellcasters in 2e).  All of them now go from 1st to 19th beginning at young, so that's probably the best approach for the jacinth.

Since it could cast priest spells in 2E, we'll need to pick some domains.   Fire seems a good fit, as does Trickery.  Any suggestions for a third domain?

Its magic resistance progression followed the same as the brass in 2e, so perhaps we'll just follow the brass's spell resistance progression?

Its land speed matches the 2e black, green, and reds, which all have 40 feet in 3e.  As a flyer, it falls between the topaz and crystal dragons and the black in speed, but has better maneuverability than all dragons I could find with 3E counterparts.   So how about following the speed progression of the topaz, crystal, and black (all appear the same), with one maneuverability class better?

Class skills?  Diplomacy and Sense Motive, the two most obvious choices, are already class skills for dragons.  Maybe Appraise?  Bluff?

For ability scores...

Its damage output is closest to the bronze dragon in 2E, so maybe we can use the Str progression of the bronze.

Nothing seems to indicate that their Dex is better or worse than most dragons, so 10's all the way should suffice.

Since they are hearty desert survivors, I'd assume Con is decent.

Int is on par with gold, amethyst, and sapphire dragons.

Wis should probably be slightly less than Int and Cha.

Cha should be decent due to their reliance on magic.


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## RavinRay (Nov 30, 2006)

The desert is becoming a crowded place!  Jacinths have to share it with blues, brasses, browns, rattelyrs, sands, and yellows, not to mention lesser dragons like air drakes, desert landwyrms, sand wurms, spinwyrms, sun wyrms, and vishaps.

Be back to add some more comments.


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## RavinRay (Dec 1, 2006)

Ok, I've got this huge spreadsheet with true dragon stats I made a long time ago and am updating with new dragons, so I'll be using it as a handy reference.

Most Material Plane true dragons have natural AC=HD-1 (brown is -3 due to its leathery scales), and the jacinth isn't different enough to vary from this.

So Blinding Hide is at young? Sounds reasonable.

This is a general conversion question but I didn't ask this earlier. Do we limit ourselves to the _PHB_ clerical domains, or can other domains in the SRD (like those from _Deities & Demigods_, as well as Mind from _XPH_) be used? If so, Charm is a good choice, otherwise... hmm, Magic, considering that it might turn our to gain fewer Sp and Su abilities than other dragons at great wyrm age.

Hmm, isn't the black dragon 60 ft in 3.5e, like the white? Most of the smallest dragons have 60 ft (except for copper and mist at 40). But 40 ft is a better match for the jacinth.

Yes, give it the brass dragon's SR! Then let's see how the two face off in a confrontation, with the jacinth's possible higher Cha scores tipping the balance.

I haven't suggestions yet on the class skills and ability scores (save for Dex 10 throughout). For the latter, I can always experiment with calculations on the spreadsheet and come up with a matrix.

That's my 2 cp for today...


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2006)

as for clerical domains (and other book references), we prefer to stick to the PHB/DMG/MM core books as much as possible, but yeah if need be we have referenced other SRD materials before.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Most Material Plane true dragons have natural AC=HD-1 (brown is -3 due to its leathery scales), and the jacinth isn't different enough to vary from this.




Cool...that's good to know.     



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> So Blinding Hide is at young? Sounds reasonable.




Great.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> This is a general conversion question but I didn't ask this earlier. Do we limit ourselves to the _PHB_ clerical domains, or can other domains in the SRD (like those from _Deities & Demigods_, as well as Mind from _XPH_) be used? If so, Charm is a good choice, otherwise... hmm, Magic, considering that it might turn our to gain fewer Sp and Su abilities than other dragons at great wyrm age.




Both Charm and Magic seem a good fit.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Hmm, isn't the black dragon 60 ft in 3.5e, like the white? Most of the smallest dragons have 60 ft (except for copper and mist at 40). But 40 ft is a better match for the jacinth.




You are correct on the black.  We'll stick with 40 since it is indeed a better fit.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Yes, give it the brass dragon's SR! Then let's see how the two face off in a confrontation, with the jacinth's possible higher Cha scores tipping the balance.




Sounds like one for the Battle of All Alignments.    



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> I haven't suggestions yet on the class skills and ability scores (save for Dex 10 throughout). For the latter, I can always experiment with calculations on the spreadsheet and come up with a matrix.




If you feel like going to that much effort.  If not, we can just go with what I've got (and if it proves problematic, can always be corrected later).


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2006)

Updated in Homebrews (in this new thread).  

I'm about to go insane with formatting, but it is mostly legible at this point.    

Note that the Con, Wis, and Cha scores are those of the white dragon.  These are just placeholders until we decide on replacement ability scores.

I stuck with the DR progression of the white, but we can adjust that as we desire.


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## Mortis (Dec 5, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm about to go insane with formatting, but it is mostly legible at this point.



Yeah the joys of formatting within a code tag 

I had enough trouble with my Consolidated Creature Index on the Mystara board, and that didn't have half the columns this has.

The way I did it was to format it in notepad, copy it into the code tag, then alternating previewing it and then inserting any addition tabs until it looks right. But as you can't enter tabs using the tab key I had to copy and paste them.

Its also a pain that you can't change the width of a code box.   

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2006)

Heh.  That's _exactly_ what I ended up doing!


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2006)

Interesting...

Looking over the chromatic, metallic, and gem dragons, all but the crystal dragons have Charimsa scores equal to their Intelligence scores, and Wisdom scores 1 higher than both.  Same goes for the mercury, mist, and steel dragons.  I suppose we can follow those same guidelines for the jacinth.   

On the other hand, the shadow dragon, another dragon that relies on Charisma-based skills, has equal Int and Wis, with Cha 1 higher.

I also just realized that this dragon is really tiny!  At its largest, it only gets as big as some dragons get at juvenile age.  Its even smaller than the mercury.  The smallest 3E dragon I can find is the song dragon, which progresses T, S, S, M, M, L, L, H, H, H, H, G.   Perhaps we should use the same for the jacinth?

Thoughts?


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## RavinRay (Dec 6, 2006)

Well, the crystal dragon _does_ specialize in Telepathy (=Enchantment), and it already has _psionic charm_ (=_charm person/monster_) and _psionic dominate_ (=_dominate person/monster_) and it enjoys talking with visitors so its higher Charisma scores shouldn't be surprising. Brass dragons are pretty loquacious too, and their Cha scores are just slightly lower. Jacinths should match or exceed crystals in Cha, I'd say. Whites have truly horrendous Cha. 

Should it have an ability to summon/charm/befriend a desert animal or Small magical beast?


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2006)

I'm thinking that since it was intended to be one of the strongest spellcasting dragons, we should probably give it Cha close to its Int.   It's going to take a bit of a hit on the physical scores due to its smaller size, which should offset this.

Sure, we can add some sort of charm/summon animal/monster to its spell-like abilities.   Maybe charm animal at juvenile,  dominate animal at old, and charm monster at ancient?

I updated the sizes and ability scores in Homebrews.  Let me know how it's looking now.


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## RavinRay (Dec 9, 2006)

I noticed that while the breath weapon die is +1/age category, it starts off at 2 dice like the mist dragon. Nice touch.

Str: slightly higher than brass (should win grapple checks, slightly higher tail, bite, claw, wing damage)
Con: equal to brass
Int, Wis, Cha: no contest here. In a magical battle between these two desert-dwelling dragons, the jacinth wins hands down. It should also be a more charming (and more terrifying thanks to the stronger frightful presence) companion than the brass. Brass dragons have met their match! It actually stands a better chance against a blue than does a brass.

So far you've done a good job at making the jacinth distinct from other desert-dwelling dragons. Kudos!


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2006)

Thanks!    

What do you think of the propoesed spell-like abilities (charm animal at juvenile, dominate animal at old, and charm monster at ancient)?


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## RavinRay (Dec 10, 2006)

That's a good progression, as it allows the dragon to control more powerful creatures as it ages (reminds me of how a crystal dragon's _psionic charm_ and _psionic dominate_ scale upward as it ages, and the concordant dragon's ability to summon more powerful rilmani).


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2006)

Updated.  I think all that's left is CR and LA.


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## RavinRay (Dec 12, 2006)

Oh, I am weak at those. If I'm lazy when doing homebrew dragons, I just compare the LAs of dragons with identical HD progressions and similar power levels.

As an aside, I got a peek at the rattelyr dragon stats from _Shining South_. Man, that is one weak dragon! Lowest wyrmling HD (2d12!), natural AC = age category x 2 (!!), ages five times faster than all other known true dragons (!!!).

Plus, after reading through the basic write-ups of the other dragons in the queue, I've gotten some ideas already (like the oriental jade dragon). All in good time though.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2006)

I'll probably do just that.

Yeah, the rattlyr's an odd one.

Speaking of that, I think the cobra dragon will probably be next, followed by the jade.


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2006)

On to the next one...

*Cobra Dragon*
Created by: Randy Johns
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVE: 12"/24” (MC: D)
HIT DICE: 10-12
% IN LAIR: 45%
TREASURE TYPE: B, R
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws, 1 bite, and 1 tail strike
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See Table 1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Major breath weapon, poisonous bite, exceptional damage from bite, four attacks per round, to-hit bonus with age, smoke cloud 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Magic resistance, immune to fire, high intelligence, detects hidden/invisible beings, fear aura, saving-throw bonus with age
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See Table 1
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT. Lawful evil
SIZE: See Table 1
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 95%
Magic Use: Nil
Sleeping: 35%
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 10 HD: IX/6,900 + 14 per hit point; 11-12 HD: X/10,000 + 16 per hit point

A cobra dragon is gloss black, with an orange underbelly. On either side of its neck is a large hood of skin that resembles that of a king cobra. Legend holds that certain king cobras of great age transform into cobra dragons. Evil reptiles of the Orient, these monsters rival western dragons in greed and aggressiveness.  Cobra dragons do not use magic; in fact, they are highly resistant to it. Instead, they rely on their natural abilities to destroy their enemies.  
A cobra dragon attacks by slashing with its claws and whipping with its tail. Due to great strength and skill, a cobra dragon gains a bonus to hit per age category (see Table 1). From the dragon’s mouth extend two 13” fangs that inject a deadly venom.

A victim bitten by the dragon immediately becomes weak (reduce strength score by half) and dizzy (- 3 on all to-hit rolls), and suffers frequent periods of nausea (+4 bonus to be hit by opponents). Every round thereafter, the victim suffers 1 hp damage from extensive bleeding under the skin. All of these effects continue for 10 rounds; at this time, if the individual is successful in making a saving throw vs. poison, he returns to his normal level of
function. A failed saving throw indicates the victim falls into shock. When in shock, the victim is unconscious, pale, and covered in sweat. Unless the individual is magically cured of the poison within the next five rounds, the victim dies. Those bitten by a cobra dragon cannot ingest solids or liquids (due to nausea) until the effects of the poison have subsided.

Three times per day, a cobra dragon can breathe a cone of fire 90’ long with a 30’ base diameter. Optionally, the dragon can breathe its breath weapon directly under its body. The force of the fiery breath striking the ground forms a 40’-diameter circle of flame (similar in nature to a wall of fire spell) that surrounds the dragon, burning all within its area of effect. This tactic is quite effective when the cobra dragon is surrounded by multiple opponents.
Cobra dragons are not affected by their own breath weapons, as well as all other fire- and heat-based attacks, magical or mundane, but take +2 hp/HD of cold damage. Other elemental attacks (based on water, air, or earth) affect them normally.

When the dragon’s fire breath is expelled, a stationary, black smoke cloud is released from its nostrils in a 90’-diameter circle around the dragon. All those within the cloud (except the dragon) suffer from coughing, nausea, and irritated eyes, resulting in a -2 to hit for as long as the opponents remain within the cloud. The smoke cloud lasts 4-16 rounds before breaking up. Strong winds move the smoke cloud but do not aid in dispersing it. Effects from several smoke clouds are cumulative. Thus, two clouds released in the same area would result in a -4 to hit; three clouds would result in -6 to hit.

Cobra dragons live in caves and underground caverns in tropical and subtropical environments. They dislike swamps. In Kara-Tur (the Oriental Adventures lands of the FORGOTTEN REALMS™ setting), cobra dragons are found in the far southern reaches of the T’u Lung Empire, where they cause considerable grief and destruction.  They are said to be even more numerous in other lands south and west of that empire.

Like other dragons, a cobra dragon lays claim to an area of land surrounding its lair, ferociously driving off all other creatures.  Intrusion by another cobra dragon is only tolerated during the spring mating season. The mating ritual involves the male and female entering noninjurious combat that results in a fiery display.  Mating only occurs during age categories four and five. Cobra dragons past the adult stage of life boast of having outgrown
the mating drive. After mating, the female lays 1-4 12” -long eggs. When hatched, the newborn dragons remain with the female until they reach subadulthood.

Skull collecting is a favorite pastime of cobra dragons. Skulls of powerful monsters and rare creatures are highly prized.  Favorite skulls include those of cave bears, dinosaurs, dragons, giants, and unicorns.  Humanoid skulls are deemed interesting but of little value since they are so easily obtained. The offering of a rare skull as a gift when attempting to converse with a cobra dragon aids considerably in gaining the dragon’s favor.

Due to its charisma, power, and cunning, a cobra dragon of adult age and beyond attracts a small number of intelligent creatures who search for a leader to serve. Common followers include bake mono, gargoyles, lizard men, and mobats.  These creatures live with the dragon and worship it as a god. A cobra dragon of adult age or older has a 60% chance of having 2-8 such allies, chosen by the DM and heavily equipped for combat (if such is possible).


```
Table 1 Cobra Dragon Age Categories 
Age category  Length 	MR  Hit bonus Damage by claws/bite/tail
Very young 	6’ 	15% 	-  	1-4/1-10/1-2
Young 		15’ 	30% 	+1  	1-6/1-10/1-4
Subadult 	29' 	45% 	+2  	2-8/2-20/1-6
Young adult	37' 	60% 	+2  	2-12/3-30/2-8
Adult 		40'  	65% 	+3 	2-16/3-10/2-12
Old 		41'	70% 	+3 	2-16/3-30/2-12
Very old 	42'	75% 	+4 	2-16/3-30/2-12
Ancient 	43'  	80% 	+4 	2-16/3-30/2-12
```


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## Mortis (Dec 13, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> On to the next one...



The only juvenile dragon to have 10-12 HD is the White with 12.



> Due to great strength and skill, a cobra dragon gains a bonus to hit per age category (see Table 1).



Will be covered by increases to Str.



> A victim bitten by the dragon immediately becomes weak (reduce strength score by half) and dizzy (- 3 on all to-hit rolls), and suffers frequent periods of nausea (+4 bonus to be hit by opponents).



2d6 Str damage plus sickened? (3.5 nauseated would be too severe)


> Every round thereafter, the victim suffers 1 hp damage from extensive bleeding under the skin.



Bleeding's now represents by loss of Con


> All of these effects continue for 10 rounds; at this time, if the individual is successful in making a saving throw vs. poison, he returns to his normal level of function.



So you automatically suffer the consequences for 10 rounds.   I don't think that will work in 3.5.

I suggest an initial effect of 2d6 Str, 1d6 Con and sickened with a secondary effect of more Con damage (which IIRC, replaced the more brutal 'die' option). Say 3d6 Con?



> Three times per day, a cobra dragon can breathe a cone of fire 90’ long with a 30’ base diameter.



Replace with standard 1d4 rounds


> Optionally, the dragon can breathe its breath weapon directly under its body. The force of the fiery breath striking the ground forms a 40’-diameter circle of flame (similar in nature to a wall of fire spell) that surrounds the dragon, burning all within its area of effect. This tactic is quite effective when the cobra dragon is surrounded by multiple opponents.
> Cobra dragons are not affected by their own breath weapons, as well as all other fire- and heat-based attacks, magical or mundane, but take +2 hp/HD of cold damage. Other elemental attacks (based on water, air, or earth) affect them normally.



Is there a feat/ability in the Draonomicon thats allows a dragon to shape it's breath weapon?



> When the dragon’s fire breath is expelled, a stationary, black smoke cloud is released from its nostrils in a 90’-diameter circle around the dragon. All those within the cloud (except the dragon) suffer from coughing, nausea, and irritated eyes, resulting in a -2 to hit for as long as the opponents remain within the cloud. The smoke cloud lasts 4-16 rounds before breaking up. Strong winds move the smoke cloud but do not aid in dispersing it. Effects from several smoke clouds are cumulative. Thus, two clouds released in the same area would result in a -4 to hit; three clouds would result in -6 to hit.



Sickening effect?



> Due to its charisma, power, and cunning, a cobra dragon of adult age and beyond attracts a small number of intelligent creatures who search for a leader to serve. Common followers include bake mono, gargoyles, lizard men, and mobats.  These creatures live with the dragon and worship it as a god. A cobra dragon of adult age or older has a 60% chance of having 2-8 such allies, chosen by the DM and heavily equipped for combat (if such is possible).



Possible 'Leadership' feat?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> The only juvenile dragon to have 10-12 HD is the White with 12.




Black, white, crystal, emerald, topaz, and brass all fell within that range in 2E, so it could theoretically follow any of their progressions.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Will be covered by increases to Str.




Indeed.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> 2d6 Str damage plus sickened? (3.5 nauseated would be too severe)




That sounds about right.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Bleeding's now represents by loss of Con




Sometimes.  Note the bleeding wounds ability of the MMIII nycaloth, for example.  Several other creatures still use the old 3E wounding property in 3.5.   



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> So you automatically suffer the consequences for 10 rounds.   I don't think that will work in 3.5.




That works out to one minute, which fits rather elegantly with the 3x poison mechanics, though.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I suggest an initial effect of 2d6 Str, 1d6 Con and sickened with a secondary effect of more Con damage (which IIRC, replaced the more brutal 'die' option). Say 3d6 Con?




I'm leaning towards Str damage and sickened for primary, and nauseated and Con damage for secondary.  I think the amounts should vary by age category.

I'd go with bleeding wounds as an alternate special ability.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Replace with standard 1d4 rounds




Absolutely!



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Is there a feat/ability in the Draonomicon thats allows a dragon to shape it's breath weapon?




Yep, and not surprisingly, it is called "Shape Breath".    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Sickening effect?




We could always use the standard smoke effects from the DMG:  "A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.  Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it."



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Possible 'Leadership' feat?




Possibly.


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## Mortis (Dec 13, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Black, white, crystal, emerald, topaz, and brass all fell within that range in 2E, so it could theoretically follow any of their progressions.



True.



> Sometimes.  Note the bleeding wounds ability of the MMIII nycaloth, for example.  Several other creatures still use the old 3E wounding property in 3.5.



Don't you love consistency.  



> That works out to one minute, which fits rather elegantly with the 3x poison mechanics, though.



Yeah, I suppose we could just introduce a primary save.



> I think the amounts should vary by age category.



Of course they should   



> I'd go with bleeding wounds as an alternate special ability.



Could do 



> We could always use the standard smoke effects from the DMG:  "A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.  Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it."



Probably the best way to go.

Then again, I'm getting ahead of myself we should do the basics first. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2006)

Getting back to basics, then!

3E Hit Dice of comparable dragons:  Black (4-37), white (3-36), brass (4-37), crystal (5-38), emerald (6-39), and topaz (7-40).  That's quite a range to play with.  I'm tempted to just go with the middle range (5-38).  This would put them comparable to the mid-range of chromatic (green) and metallic (copper) dragons.

Fire subtype seems a no-brainer.

Its land speed is comparable to a 2e black, brass, and gold, while it's fly speed is comparable to a crystal and topaz (although its maneuverability is a class worse).

Its magic resistance is 20% better than a gold.

AC is equal to black, white, and copper.

Its Int score is on par with a brass and copper.

It has "great strength and skill", so I'm thinking a decent Str score.


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## RavinRay (Dec 14, 2006)

> We could always use the standard smoke effects from the DMG:



Should we scale the size of the spread, with radius equal to the length of the cone of fire?

Movement: which suits it better, burrow or climb?
Fire breath weapon: 2d6/age category seems a good progression.
Skills: Circumstance bonus to Hide checks when underground?


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2006)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Should we scale the size of the spread, with radius equal to the length of the cone of fire?
> 
> Movement: which suits it better, burrow or climb?
> Fire breath weapon: 2d6/age category seems a good progression.
> Skills: Circumstance bonus to Hide checks when underground?




Not a bad idea on scaling the spread.

Vipers have both a climb and swim speed, so I could see both of those.  Since it can fly, though, a climb skill is probably unnecessary.  

2d6 progression sounds good.

The Hide bonus could work.  Also, I was thinking we should give it typically snake bonuses:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## RavinRay (Dec 14, 2006)

I forgot to mention that we could add a sidebar for using the cobra dragon in an _Oriental Adventures_ setting. If using that book, cobra dragons can have the spirit subtype modifier and speak the Spirit Tongue as well as Draconic. If the adventure's cosmology includes the Spirit World, maybe it can _plane shift_ to the Spirit World at will like lung dragons (though it might not be necessarily be part of any Celestial Bureaucracy the DM is using).


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2006)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> I forgot to mention that we could add a sidebar for using the cobra dragon in an _Oriental Adventures_ setting. If using that book, cobra dragons can have the spirit subtype modifier and speak the Spirit Tongue as well as Draconic. If the adventure's cosmology includes the Spirit World, maybe it can _plane shift_ to the Spirit World at will like lung dragons (though it might not be necessarily be part of any Celestial Bureaucracy the DM is using).




Interesting...


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2006)

I started putting it together in homebrews.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2006)

In order to not frontload these fellas too bad, we should probably move the bleeding wounds to a later age category than wyrmling.

Since these dragons get no spellcasting or spell-lke abilities, we should consider any other abilities to gain at later ages:



> SPECIAL ATTACKS: Major breath weapon, poisonous bite, *exceptional damage from bite*, four attacks per round, to-hit bonus with age, smoke cloud
> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Magic resistance, immune to fire, high intelligence, *detects hidden/invisible beings*, fear aura, saving-throw bonus with age




Perhaps we could equate the "exceptional damage from bite" into either dealing bite damage as a size category larger, or as augmented critical.  

For the "detects hidden/invisible beings", all dragons have blindsense 60 ft.  Perhaps we could give them scent as well, like normal vipers?  

We could also make the "shape breath" ability come at a later age category.

Thoughts?


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2006)

hmm, interesting!  i always figured these guys were FR-related, but never really realized the OA/KT connection as well!


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## Mortis (Dec 16, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps we could equate the "exceptional damage from bite" into either dealing bite damage as a size category larger, or as augmented critical.



I could see it having both. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, interesting!  i always figured these guys were FR-related, but never really realized the OA/KT connection as well!




I was delightfully surprised as well.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I could see it having both.




Perhaps...


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## RavinRay (Dec 18, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since these dragons get no spellcasting or spell-lke abilities, we should consider any other abilities to gain at later ages:
> 
> Thoughts?



Here's an idea. The king cobra of south and southeast Asia (they still thrive in primary tropical forests in my country) can spit its venom, and is good at aiming at the eyes of its targets to blind them. Why not give them the guardian naga's spit poison ability, only with an added effect that if it makes a successful roll or check (can't figure out which) it hits the target's eyes and blinds it for a number of rounds (not to mention that it may also be nauseated or sickened due to the painful agony of venom in its eyes).


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Here's an idea. The king cobra of south and southeast Asia (they still thrive in primary tropical forests in my country) can spit its venom, and is good at aiming at the eyes of its targets to blind them. Why not give them the guardian naga's spit poison ability, only with an added effect that if it makes a successful roll or check (can't figure out which) it hits the target's eyes and blinds it for a number of rounds (not to mention that it may also be nauseated or sickened due to the painful agony of venom in its eyes).




That's a definite possibility.


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## RavinRay (Dec 19, 2006)

Let's give it Scent as a class skill. All snakes sample the air with their tongues and bring the tip in contact with their Jacobson's Organ in the palate of their mouths. It seems that this is the most snake-like of all true dragons as regards abilities.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2006)

I'm definitely on-board with giving it scent as a special ability (see a few posts back), but it is not a skill in the core game.  Some third-party supplements like Denizens of Avadnu do use it as a skill, though.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2006)

I updated it in Homebrews.  Let me know how it's looking now.


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## RavinRay (Dec 20, 2006)

Very good, I think it's gonna give the most powerful yuan-ti's a run for their money. I can easily envision a cobra dragon migrating from Shou Lung to Mulhorand and establishing itself there.


----------



## Shade (Dec 21, 2006)

Thanks!  I'll finish up the CR, LA, and other loose ends and we can start on the next one.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2006)

Next...

*Dragon, Maztican (Tlalocoatl, Rain Dragon)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical clouds and mountain caves
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0 (base)
MOVEMENT: 3, Fl 30 (B)
HIT DICE: 12 (base)
THAC0: 7 (base)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 + special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-24/3-18/2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Special
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable
SIZE: G (30' base)
MORALE: Fanatic (17 base)
XP VALUE: Variable

Also called rain serpents, tlalocoatls are limbless and serpentine, with a head at each end. One head is snake-like; the other resembles a reptilian jaguar head. A tlalocoatl is bluish in color, ranging from sky blue on its underside to turquoise blue on top.

Tlalocoatls help dispense rain in Maztica. They will aid an arid area with moisture if properly appeased, but they sometimes act capriciously, causing floods or allowing droughts.

They have the standard dragon characteristics, except for age categories, maneuverability class, and attacks, as noted herein.

Combat: Tlalocoatls fly using natural magical ability and are more maneuverable than most other dragons.

They prefer to use spells and special abilities before melee.  In melee, they may bite once per head, constrict, snatch (using a mouth), or plummet, but may not use other special dragon attack forms. The fanged snake head bites for 3d6 points of damage and injects poison, against which victims must make a saving throw or die. The jaguar head does 3d8 points of damage. A constriction attack causes 2d4 points of damage per round until the victim or the dragon is slain. A tlalocoatl can constrict one victim for each 8' of body length.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: A tlalocoatl has two breath weapons, each usable once every three rounds.  The jaguar head breathes a cloud of water vapor 90' long, 30' wide, and 30' high. The cloud may be scalding steam, doing damage as indicated above, or cool fog which does no damage. Either form lasts for 1d4 + 4 rounds, obscuring vision as does normal darkness. The serpent head breathes a cone of ice crystals 75' long, 5' wide at the
mouth, and 25' wide at the base. Damage indicated is caused half by cold and half by abrasion. If used together, the breath weapons cause normal damage, then cause rain, making as much water as a create water cast by the dragon. The rain continues for one round per four gallons of water. Creatures take 1d4 points of drowning damage for each round they stay within the storm, which has the same dimensions as the original vapor cloud.

A tlalocoatl casts spells and uses magical abilities at 5th level plus its combat modifier. Rain dragons are immune to electricity and cold. As they age, they gain the following additional powers:
Very young: water breathing three times a day.
Young: obscurement twice a day.
Juvenile: solid fog twice a day.
Adult: call lightning twice a day.
Mature adult: transmute water to dust twice a day.
Old: weather summoning twice a day.
Very old: transmute rock to mud once a day.
Venerable: control weather once a day.

Habitat/Society: Rain serpents lair in caves in cloud-shrouded mountains, sometimes accompanied by chacs (jaguar-like rain spirits). Every tlalocoatl is a priest of Azul, and is both male and female, producing offspring when Azul gives permission. Many die young because they mature so slowly. However, they age rapidly in later years.  They have a maximum age of 676 years.

Ecology: Tlalocoatls are not as greedy as other dragons, but they do collect treasure. Substitute Maztican valuables for coinage: cocoa beans for copper pieces, copper blades for silver pieces, coral buds for electrum, jade or turquoise for gold, and quills of gold dust for platinum. Magical items will also be Maztican.

Tlalocoatls are especially fond of cocoa beans, turquoise, and jade, which they consume. They also drink a great deal of water, possibly increasing the dangers of a local drought. They are fond of meat, particularly that of young animals or human children.

The scales from the tops of their bodies are beautiful turquoise, worth up to 1 gq each. A skilled craftsman can shape them like rock, but they are as tough as metal. Weapons made with the scales do not break like bone or stone weapons.

Age
1 (0-51 yrs)
2 (52-103)
3 (104-155)
4 (156-207)
5 (208-259)
6 (260-311)
7 (312-363)
8 (364-415)
9 (416-467)
10 (468-519)
11 (520-571)
12 (572-675)	

BodyLgt. 
5-8
9-12
13-16
17-20
21-24
25-28
29-32
33-36
37-40
41-44
45-48
49-52

AC 
3
2
1
0
-1 
-2 
-3 
-4 
-5 
-6 
-7 
-8 

BreathWeapon
2d6+2
3d6+3
4d6+4
5d6+5
6d6+6
7d6+7
8d6+8
9d6+9
10d6+10
lld6+11
12d6+12
13d6+13

Priest Spells 
1 
2 
2 1 
3 1 
3 2 
3 2 1 
3 3 1 
3 3 2 
3 3 2 1 
3 3 3 1 
3 3 3 2 
3 3 3 2 1 

MR
20%
25%
30%
35%
40%
45%
50%
55%
60%
65%
70%
75%


Source:  FMA-1, Fires of Zatal


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2006)

This one should be fun since it's so different.    



> Very young: water breathing three times a day.
> Young: obscurement twice a day.
> Juvenile: solid fog twice a day.
> Adult: call lightning twice a day.
> ...




Spell-Like Abilities:  3/day--water breathing (very young and older);  2/day--call lightning (adult and older), obscuring mist (young and older), solid fog (juvenile and older); 1/day--control weather (ancient or older), transmute rock to mud (very old or older).

Transmute water to dust and weather summoning don't exist in 3E.  We can consider making them unique spell-like abilities or just dropping them (since it has no shortage of SLAs).


----------



## RavinRay (Dec 23, 2006)

This dragon is too weird for me, I'm kinda stumped at this point. Oh well...

Caster level: from 1st to 15th (juvenile to great wyrm)?
Weather summoning overlaps with control weather, IMO, so I don't think we need it.
Serpent head poison: initial damage Con damage, secondary damage is...?
Flight: good to average perhaps, and its a (Su) like for lung dragons.
Size: it seems to start off as Tiny (it can reach 8 ft. as a wyrmling, but its elongated body means it isn't really bulky) and reaches Huge at great wyrm age.
Ageing: reminds me of the rattelyr dragon.

Thematically it's somewhat like the chiang lung with its weather abilities and physiognomy (though it's the pan lung and not chiang lung that can constrict).


----------



## Gothenem (Dec 23, 2006)

It's certainly an interesting one. We can look to Sandstorm for an idea for Transmute Water to dust (a dessication-like effect possibly) But written as a unique spell-like ability. But yeah, let's just drop.

Give it access to cleric spells but not Sorcerer ones? Cast spells as a sorcerer but can only select from the Cleric list (and possibly the Air and Water domains)??


----------



## Shade (Dec 26, 2006)

FMA-1 said:
			
		

> Tlalocoatls fly using natural magical ability and are more maneuverable than most other dragons.




Borrowing and modifying from lung dragons, as suggested...

Fly (Su): Though wingless, tlalocoatls can fly magically. The dragon can cease or resume flight as a free action.



			
				FMA-1 said:
			
		

> They prefer to use spells and special abilities before melee.  In melee, they may bite once per head, constrict, snatch (using a mouth), or plummet, but may not use other special dragon attack forms. The fanged snake head bites for 3d6 points of damage and injects poison, against which victims must make a saving throw or die. The jaguar head does 3d8 points of damage. A constriction attack causes 2d4 points of damage per round until the victim or the dragon is slain. A tlalocoatl can constrict one victim for each 8' of body length.




How does this look?

Constrict (Ex):  I'll get back to this one...

Multiple Heads (Ex):  Each of a rain dragon's two heads can take a standard action each round.  Thus, it may make two bite attacks, use two breath weapons, or any combination of the two each round.  It adds its Strength modifier to damage for its snake head, and 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier to damage with its jaguar head.   Tlalocoatls can attack with both their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

Poison (Ex):  The bite attack from a rain dragon's serpent head delivers a deadly poison.  Initial damage and secondary damage are the same.  Wyrmling to juvenile rain dragons' poison deals 1d4 points of Constitution damage, young adult to old deal 2d4 points of Constitution damage, and ancient or older deal 3d4 points of Constitution damage.   Save DC equals breath weapon save DC.



			
				FMA-1 said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: A tlalocoatl has two breath weapons, each usable once every three rounds.  The jaguar head breathes a cloud of water vapor 90' long, 30' wide, and 30' high. The cloud may be scalding steam, doing damage as indicated above, or cool fog which does no damage. Either form lasts for 1d4 + 4 rounds, obscuring vision as does normal darkness. The serpent head breathes a cone of ice crystals 75' long, 5' wide at the mouth, and 25' wide at the base. Damage indicated is caused half by cold and half by abrasion. If used together, the breath weapons cause normal damage, then cause rain, making as much water as a create water cast by the dragon. The rain continues for one round per four gallons of water. Creatures take 1d4 points of drowning damage for each round they stay within the storm, which has the same dimensions as the original vapor cloud.




Breath Weapon (Su):  A tlalocoatl's serpent head has one type of breath weapon, a cone of ice crystals that deals half cold damage and half slashing damage.  A tlalocoatl's jaguar head has two types of breath weapons, a cone of scalding steam and a cone of cool fog.  The scalding steam deals fire damage, while the cool fog does no damage.  Both breath weapons function as a fog cloud spell for 1d4+4 rounds thereafter.

Each head may use its breath weapon only once every 1d4 rounds, but both heads may deliver their breath weapons in the same round.  If used together in the same round, the breath weapons create rain in addition to their normal effects.  This rain lasts for 1 round per age category and extends to a two-mile radius centered on the dragon.


----------



## RavinRay (Jan 2, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon (Su):  A tlalocoatl's serpent head has one type of breath weapon, a cone of ice crystals that deals half cold damage and half slashing damage.  A tlalocoatl's jaguar head has two types of breath weapons, a cone of scalding steam and a cone of cool fog.  The scalding steam deals fire damage, while the cool fog does no damage.  Both breath weapons function as a fog cloud spell for 1d4+4 rounds thereafter.
> 
> Each head may use its breath weapon only once every 1d4 rounds, but both heads may deliver their breath weapons in the same round.  If used together in the same round, the breath weapons create rain in addition to their normal effects.  This rain lasts for 1 round per age category and extends to a two-mile radius centered on the dragon.



Shouldn't the jaguar head's cool fog breath weapon work like _obscuring mist_ (_fog cloud_ is too strong, I suppose)? Does the rain effect work with either jaguar head breath weapon, or just one of them? The two-mile radius effect again reminds me of the chiang lung's similar ability. I'd like to see these two go head-to-head!


----------



## Gothenem (Jan 8, 2007)

Hmm, I notice that the jaguar head does more damage than the snake head. Should we try to preserve this?

Also, the "rain" had a 1d4 damage/round for drowning? Should we try to preserve this effect? I would say no.

I have always had a fondness for the Tlalocoatl. That said, I have also had a fondness for Lung dragons too. 

(Starting at Juvenile)
Caster Level 1st to 15th.
*Spells:* A tlalocoatl casts spells as a sorcerer of the indicated level, but can only choose spells from the Cleric spell list, and from the Air, Protection, and Water domains.


Also noticed that your writeup of the two-heads ability makes no reference to spell-like abilities and spells.... Could it not cast with one head and attack with the other?


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Shouldn't the jaguar head's cool fog breath weapon work like obscuring mist (fog cloud is too strong, I suppose)?




Perhaps.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Does the rain effect work with either jaguar head breath weapon, or just one of them?




It sounds like either.  I should probably clarify that in the breath weapon writeup.



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Hmm, I notice that the jaguar head does more damage than the snake head. Should we try to preserve this?




Yeah.  In the multiple heads ability above, I suggested adding its Strength modifier to damage for its snake head, and 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier to damage with its jaguar head.   Is this enough?



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Also, the "rain" had a 1d4 damage/round for drowning? Should we try to preserve this effect? I would say no.




Agreed.



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> (Starting at Juvenile)
> Caster Level 1st to 15th.
> *Spells:* A tlalocoatl casts spells as a sorcerer of the indicated level, but can only choose spells from the Cleric spell list, and from the Air, Protection, and Water domains.




That might work.



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Also noticed that your writeup of the two-heads ability makes no reference to spell-like abilities and spells.... Could it not cast with one head and attack with the other?




I don't see why it shouldn't be able to.


----------



## Gothenem (Jan 9, 2007)

Also for the spells and spell-likes, would it be able to cast 2 spells a round. Would that would be too much?

Multiple Heads (Ex): Each of a rain dragon's two heads can take a standard action each round. Thus, it may make two bite attacks, use two breath weapons, or any combination of the two each round. It adds its Strength modifier to damage for its snake head, and 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier to damage with its jaguar head. Tlalocoatls can attack with both their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round. A tlalocoatl can only use one spell or spell-like ability each round. A tlalocoatl only gets one move action each round.

or

Multiple Heads (Ex): Each of a rain dragon's two heads can take a standard action each round. Thus, each round it can take 2 standard actions and one move action or one full round action and one standard action. It adds its Strength modifier to damage for its snake head, and 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier to damage with its jaguar head. Tlalocoatls can attack with both their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round. A tlalocoatl cannot use its extra standard action to perform a move-equivalent action.

Perhaps the first version could be re-written better.


----------



## Shade (Feb 5, 2007)

Alright, getting back to this.

I'll have another look at the multiple heads later.   

Back to basics...

Its 2E Hit Dice is equal to black and brass, so we'll go with the 3E HD progression of those two.  Its size is on par with both as well, so the size progression will follow likewise.

It's as intelligent as a black, so we can follow the black's Int progression.

I see nothing to indicate better Dex than other dragons.

As for the other ability scores, I see no good reason to differ from the comparable black and brass.

AC is also on par with brass, so we can follow the brass's AC progression.

I'll work something up in homebrews later and we can go from there.


----------



## Gothenem (Feb 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Alright, getting back to this.
> 
> I'll have another look at the multiple heads later.
> 
> ...




Looks good, I'll head over there then


----------



## Shade (Feb 8, 2007)

For class skills, I'm thinking Spellcraft, Survival, and Swim.  Thoughts?


----------



## RavinRay (Feb 9, 2007)

So the Swim class skill gives it an automatic swim speed, same as its base land speed. Sounds good to me. Survival is ok with me, Spellcraft just slightly less so, but then since it doesn't have your typical draconic sorcerous spellcasting levels, it's a more magic-oriented than physical-combat dragon.


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> So the Swim class skill gives it an automatic swim speed, same as its base land speed. Sounds good to me. Survival is ok with me, Spellcraft just slightly less so, but then since it doesn't have your typical draconic sorcerous spellcasting levels, it's a more magic-oriented than physical-combat dragon.




Actually, it's the other way around:  a swim speed gives you a bonus on the Swim skill.   I figured Swim as a class skill because they don't have a swim speed, but have numerous abilities that create water.  I'm not opposed to giving them a swim speed, though.  It would be funny to watch a creature with heads on both ends swim, though, wouldn't it?


----------



## Gothenem (Feb 10, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Actually, it's the other way around:  a swim speed gives you a bonus on the Swim skill.   I figured Swim as a class skill because they don't have a swim speed, but have numerous abilities that create water.  I'm not opposed to giving them a swim speed, though.  It would be funny to watch a creature with heads on both ends swim, though, wouldn't it?




Yeah,  .

Umm, Swim, Survival for sure. Spellcraft is interesting, but:

What I would LIKE to see though, is a side bar with the following -

"If you have the book _Tome of Magic_, a Tlalocoatl has Truespeak as a class skill instead of Spellcraft."

I just think that Truespeak fits the Tlalocoatl.


----------



## Shade (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm not real familiar with the truespeaker but a sidebar would be fine.


----------



## Gothenem (Feb 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm not real familiar with the truespeaker but a sidebar would be fine.




Otherwise, Spellcraft should work as the third skill.

Yeah, I was pretty sure that if it wasn't core (PHB, DMG, MM, possibly ELH and XPH) that it would be relegated to Sidebar status.


----------



## Shade (Feb 13, 2007)

Time to revisit this....

Multiple Heads (Ex): Each of a rain dragon's two heads can take a standard action each round. Thus, it may make two bite attacks, use two breath weapons, or any combination of the two each round. It adds its Strength modifier to damage for its snake head, and 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier to damage with its jaguar head. Tlalocoatls can attack with both their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

or

Multiple Heads (Ex): Each of a rain dragon's two heads can take a standard action each round. Thus, it may make two bite attacks, use two breath weapons, or any combination of the two each round. It adds its Strength modifier to damage for its snake head, and 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier to damage with its jaguar head. Tlalocoatls can attack with both their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round. A tlalocoatl can only use one spell or spell-like ability each round. A tlalocoatl only gets one move action each round.

or

Multiple Heads (Ex): Each of a rain dragon's two heads can take a standard action each round. Thus, each round it can take 2 standard actions and one move action or one full round action and one standard action. It adds its Strength modifier to damage for its snake head, and 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier to damage with its jaguar head. Tlalocoatls can attack with both their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round. A tlalocoatl cannot use its extra standard action to perform a move-equivalent action.

I think I'm leaning towards the third option.  Thoughts?


----------



## Gothenem (Feb 13, 2007)

I agree. The third option is the best IMHO. It covers all bases.


----------



## RavinRay (Feb 14, 2007)

Me three!


----------



## Shade (Feb 15, 2007)

Majority rules.  We'll go with option #3.

I updated the entry over in homebrews.

I moved transmute rock to mud from very old to old, to spread out the abilitiy distribution better.  Does anyone see a problem with that?

For the constrict attack, we have several precedents we can follow:

The pan lung gains the ability at young adult age and deals 1d8 at Large, 2d6 at Huge, and 3d6 at Gargantuan size.  It adds 1-1/2 times is Str modifier.

Sea Serpents (Dragon #345) work like so...

Constrict (Ex): A sea serpent of Medium size or larger deals damage with a successful grapple check. The amount of damage dealt depends upon the creature's size, as indicated on the following chart. The sea serpent adds 1-1/2 times its Strength bonus on damage rolls made to constrict.

Size Constrict Damage 
Medium 1d8 
Large 2d8 
Huge 3d8 
Gargantuan 4d8 
Colossal 6d8 

I think I like the sea serpent method best, as it is the most recent.

Do we want to give them improved grab as well?


----------



## Gothenem (Feb 15, 2007)

The transmute move is cool with me.

Constrict should work like the sea serpent. I prefer the Tlalocoatl constricting early, which would be with Medium size, as opposed to large.

As for Improved Grab: Perhaps only for the snake head, but not the jaguar head.


----------



## RavinRay (Feb 18, 2007)

I agree with the larger values for constrict as well, and I'd bet if the pan lung were updated to 3.5 it might use those values as well. What's the advantage of the serpent head over the jaguar head for Improved Grab?


----------



## Shade (Feb 19, 2007)

Since the serpent's head gets a poison attack, how about granting improved grab to the jaguar head?


----------



## RavinRay (Feb 20, 2007)

I was wondering that if we apply real-world animals for the heads, then the snake head might have improved grab because a snake's teeth are designed to grab hold and not let go because they all point backward and are difficult to disengage from the object struck. But Shade made a good point about the snake head already having a special attack with poison, so I'll go with him on this.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Alright, I updated homebrews with what we've discussed, and finished up flavor text.   Does it look finished?


----------



## RavinRay (Feb 28, 2007)

It gets my vote!


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Feb 28, 2007)

So, when are these guys going to be posted? I'm still waiting for the cobra dragon!


----------



## Shade (Feb 28, 2007)

Great!   I'll get the next one going soon.



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> So, when are these guys going to be posted? I'm still waiting for the cobra dragon!




I was waiting to finish a few more and do a "batch upload", mainly so as not to knock BOZ's last update of 10 critters off the front page.   If you need 'em in the meantime, I've posted them here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=182188

If you need the cobra dragon in the CC format (for printing) in a hurry, I can priortize its upload.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 28, 2007)

the last conversions have been top dogs long enough - feel free to add the dragons as you wish.


----------



## Shade (Feb 28, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the last conversions have been top dogs long enough - feel free to add the dragons as you wish.




Will do.  I'll get the cobra dragon up when I get a chance.


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2007)

The cobra dragon is now in the Creature Catalog.


----------



## JiCi (Mar 1, 2007)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Rattelyr Dragon in Shining South qualify as a cobra dragon ?


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Rattelyr Dragon in Shining South qualify as a cobra dragon ?




While both are cobralike in appearance and breathe fire, the similarities end there.  They are easily different enough to be two unique creatures.  The rattlelyr lacks flight and venom, and has a rattle attack.  The rattleyr has spellcasting, while the cobra does not.   The cobra is neutral, while the rattlyr is lawful evil.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

ah, same thing to me.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 7, 2007)

Meh! Rattelyr, Cobra Dragon..

I do not think I am alone when I say, Can we HAVE too many dragons??


----------



## Shade (Mar 7, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> I do not think I am alone when I say, Can we HAVE too many dragons??




I don't think I'm alone when I answer with a resounding "NO!".


----------



## RavinRay (Mar 7, 2007)

Just throw them all into an über-Council of Wyrms campaign and watch the scales fly!


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2007)

Next!


ICHTHYODRAKE
Created by: Gregory Detwiler
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: //15"
HIT DICE: 10-12
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 8-64
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, swallowing whole, continuous damage, high damage bite
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Acute senses, saving throw bonuses
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (100' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 10 HD: VIII/4200 + 14 per hit point; 11-12 HD: IX/6,100 + 16 per hit point

The ichthyodrake is one of the largest and most fearsome marine predators in existence. A rich deep green in color, it resembles a titanic fish with a dragon's head. The creature is apparently a distant relative of the true dragons, as it shares the same size and age categories, sensory and detection powers (except for infravision, which it lacks), fear-producing aura, and saving-throw bonuses as other dragons. However, these dragons cannot
speak or use magic, and they never seem to sleep. Worse yet, ichthyodrakes cannot be subdued, bribed, or flattered. A single V-shaped set of gills lies just behind the eyes and jaw attachments. Ichthyodrakes are so massive that they can ram and sink even the largest ocean-going vessels, though they prefer a diet of fish to a diet of people.

Few other sea creatures have developed the use of sound to the same degree as the ichthyodrake, which uses this ability well in its search for food. Ichthyodrakes reside at the top of the food pyramid, chiefly preying on "normal" predatory fishes such as sharks and barracudas. Such a monster's fins can be made to quiver at will, sending vibrations which can be felt in a 10-mile radius. These vibrations attract the attention of oceanic predators and bring them swarming in, where they are attacked and eaten. The ichthyodrake's jaws are so large that even the largest ordinary sharks can be swallowed whole. Once inside, prey takes 2-12 hp acid damage per round from the ichthyodrake's digestive fluids until wholly digested. If a character is swallowed and digested, and the ichthyodrake is cut open afterward, any surviving magical or metallic gear that saved vs. acid is found in the creature's stomach. Digested characters cannot be brought back to life by any means short of a wish.

When dealing with particularly powerful single foes, ships, or parties, the ichthyodrake can use its breath weapon three times per day. This is a sonic blast that sends severe vibrations through the water in a 20'-long by 80'-wide cone. Any creature caught in the area of effect takes 4-40 hp damage, and all nonliving materials must save vs. crushing blow. Because of this and the other powers it possesses, the ichthyodrake has no known natural enemies,
except for powerful adventurers. 

Source:  Dragon Magazine #134, June 1988.


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2007)

For starters, 10-12 HD at juvenile age puts them on par with white, black, and brass dragons back then.

In size, it is closer to a gold dragon.

So, shall we follow the gold's size progression, but the black/brass's HD progression?


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> The creature is apparently a distant relative of the true dragons, as it shares the same size and age categories, sensory and detection powers (except for infravision, which it lacks), fear-producing aura, and saving-throw bonuses as other dragons.




No low-light vision for these fellas?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> However, these dragons cannot speak or use magic, and they never seem to sleep. Worse yet, ichthyodrakes cannot be subdued, bribed, or flattered.




Int 2 at every age category?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Ichthyodrakes are so massive that they can ram and sink even the largest ocean-going vessels, though they prefer a diet of fish to a diet of people.




Give 'em dragon turtle's capsize ability?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Such a monster's fins can be made to quiver at will, sending vibrations which can be felt in a 10-mile radius. These vibrations attract the attention of oceanic predators and bring them swarming in, where they are attacked and eaten.




Should this be a special ability, or simply flavor text?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The ichthyodrake's jaws are so large that even the largest ordinary sharks can be swallowed whole. Once inside, prey takes 2-12 hp acid damage per round from the ichthyodrake's digestive fluids until wholly digested. If a character is swallowed and digested, and the ichthyodrake is cut open afterward, any surviving magical or metallic gear that saved vs. acid is found in the creature's stomach. Digested characters cannot be brought back to life by any means short of a wish.




Improved grab and swallow whole seem like no-brainers.   Have you seen any dragons with scaling swallow whole (i.e., can swallow bigger creatures and stomachs can contain more creatures of various sizes)?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> When dealing with particularly powerful single foes, ships, or parties, the ichthyodrake can use its breath weapon three times per day. This is a sonic blast that sends severe vibrations through the water in a 20'-long by 80'-wide cone. Any creature caught in the area of effect takes 4-40 hp damage, and all nonliving materials must save vs. crushing blow.




Cone that deals sonic damage with the secondary effect of a _shatter _ spell?


----------



## RavinRay (Mar 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> No low-light vision for these fellas?



I just wonder though that in deep dark water, it's gonna come in handy. I'll take a look at _Stormwrack_ and see how other aquatic creatures compare.


> Int 2 at every age category?



So its Int puts it on par with mundane animals, maybe a 3 at least.


> Give 'em dragon turtle's capsize ability?



We'll have to scale it up with its size.


> Should this be a special ability, or simply flavor text?



For now I'll go with flavor.


> Improved grab and swallow whole seem like no-brainers.   Have you seen any dragons with scaling swallow whole (i.e., can swallow bigger creatures and stomachs can contain more creatures of various sizes)?



IIRC no.


> Cone that deals sonic damage with the secondary effect of a _shatter _ spell?



This is exactly what I did for my homebrew jade dragon (except that magical/psionic items are unaffected), so yes, let's use it.


----------



## Wolf72 (Mar 10, 2007)

I like the Faerie Dragon picture from the draconomicon ... I didn't like the static HD.

I made it 12 age cat dragon ... but with only 12 HD.  Wyrmling was 1HD and each cat it went up a HD.

The stats seemed okay so just changed them with size and HD when it seemed to fit, take a look at my attachement (in MS word, I did it in simple tables that go all wierd when looked at with a different word program)


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 10, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> No low-light vision for these fellas?




Agreed.




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Int 2 at every age category?




Yeah, with the Animal Intelligence listed, I agree.




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Give 'em dragon turtle's capsize ability?





			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> We'll have to scale it up with its size.




Agreed on both parts.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Improved grab and swallow whole seem like no-brainers.   Have you seen any dragons with scaling swallow whole (i.e., can swallow bigger creatures and stomachs can contain more creatures of various sizes)?






			
				Dragon Magazin #345 said:
			
		

> *Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, the sea serpent must hit with its bite or tail slap attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it winds a grapple check, it establishes a hold. If it gets a hold of a foe with its bite, it can attempt to swallow the foe the following round. If it gets a hold with its tail slap it can constrict.
> *Swallow Whole (Ex):* A sea serpent can attempt to swallow an opponent at least two size categories smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes bite damage plus 1d8 points of acid damage every round from the sea serpent's digestive tract. A swallowed creature can attempt to cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 3 points of damage per age category of the sea serpent to it digestive tract (AC 15). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; other swallowed opponents must cut their own way out.
> A sea serpent's digestive tract can hold up to one opponent of two size categories smaller than itself, and four times as many of each size category below that. For example, a Huge sea serpent's digestive tract can hold 1 Medium, 4 Small, 16 Tiny, or 64 Diminutive or smaller opponents.




Like that?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Cone that deals sonic damage with the secondary effect of a _shatter _ spell?




You probably don't need the _shatter_ effect, as sonic ignore's an objects hardness. That should be enough to meet the needs.




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should this be a special ability, or simply flavor text?





			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> For now I'll go with flavor.



I concur. If it comes down to it, we could include a _summon swarm_ ability, but I'm in favor of this being flavor text.


----------



## RavinRay (Mar 10, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Give 'em dragon turtle's capsize ability?



It might seem more like the leviathan's ram ability, especially if it's back isn't that broad and it is streamlined like the dragon eel or yu lung. If we are going to stick with the dragon turtle's capsize ability we should use the lung wang's entry for scaling the damage.


			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by Dragon Magazine #345, Sea Serpents
> Swallow Whole (Ex): A sea serpent can attempt to swallow an opponent at least two size categories smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check...



How did I miss that one, silly me.


----------



## Shade (Mar 13, 2007)

The improved grab and swallow whole from the sea serpents should work out great.

OK, here's a Huge dragon turtle's capsize ability...

Capsize (Ex): A submerged dragon turtle that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long. 

RavinRay also suggested this...

Ramming (Ex): Once every 12 rounds, a leviathan can move at up to 720 feet and ram a Large or smaller creature or any sort of ship. To ram, the leviathan must end its movement in the target's space. If the target is a ship, the creature always precedes this attack with a long surface approach so everyone aboard can see what's coming. This attack deals 6d6+22 points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a Reflex save (DC 31) for half damage.

Upon ramming a ship, the leviathan can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC 15). Success means the creature takes 1d10 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.

...which is for a Colossal creature so would have to be scaled down for lower age categories.

We might also look to the water elemental's water mastery ability for suggestions on effects by size category:

A water elemental can be a serious threat to a ship that crosses its path. An elemental can easily overturn small craft (5 feet of length per Hit Die of the elemental) and stop larger vessels (10 feet long per HD). Even large ships (20 feet long per HD) can be slowed to half speed.


----------



## RavinRay (Mar 15, 2007)

Here's the lung wang's capsize ability for comparison. Note that the age category ranges are not consistent with the size of the dragon.

Capsize (Ex): A submerged lung wang of young adult age or older that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long can capsize the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessal from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long. Very old and older lung wangs have a 100% chance to capsize boats under 20 feet long, a 75% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long, and a 50% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long.


----------



## Shade (Mar 19, 2007)

I've attached the icthyodrake's image.

It looks like it could be capable of any of the above options.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 19, 2007)

I think I am in favor of the Lung Wang's Capsize ability over the others.


----------



## Shade (Mar 20, 2007)

I'll be on vacation for the next week, and I'm not sure if I'll be checking in at all.

I just wanted to let you guys know that I'm not ignoring you.    

Feel free to toss around further ideas for these guys and I'll check 'em when I get back.


----------



## Shade (Apr 2, 2007)

Unless there are any objections, we'll go with the lung wang's capsize ability.

Looking at its bite attack, it deals almost double the damage of a gold dragon at juvenile age.   Thus, I think we should treat its bite attack as a dragon two size categories larger.   We could also consider augmented critical for the bite.   Thoughts?


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 2, 2007)

I would go with one or the other, not both. I would suggest going with two size categories larger.


----------



## RavinRay (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm for the two size categories larger, with a Gargantuan specimen already dealing the bite damage of a Colossal+ dragon. As for capsize, the values above should be for Huge, and then Gargantuan and larger.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

How's this (borrowed liberally from the spinewyrm)?

Devastating Bite (Ex):  An icthyodrake's primary attack is a bite with its massive, powerful jaws. The damage it inflicts with its bite attack is increased by two steps as if it were two size categories larger than the damage indicated for a dragon's bite on page 69 of the Monster Manual. Icthyodrakes always apply 1.5 times their Strength bonus to damage done with their bite, even when they make a full attack action.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.


----------



## JiCi (Apr 4, 2007)

If a icthyodrake looks like a fish and hunts like a fish, why does it have a fly speed ?

About a fixed land speed of 20 feet and progressive swim speed instead ?

For a breath weapon, how about a cone of acidic vapor that deals acid damage (duh) and blinds creatures stuck within the cloud ?


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> If a icthyodrake looks like a fish and hunts like a fish, why does it have a fly speed ?
> 
> About a fixed land speed of 20 feet and progressive swim speed instead ?




Oops!  I hadn't really modified the tables yet.  I posted so I wouldn't lose my work.  I've begun revising them, so you'll see some changes.

I think the progressive swim speed is all it needs.  Nothing seemed to indicate that they were able to go on land.



> For a breath weapon, how about a cone of acidic vapor that deals acid damage (duh) and blinds creatures stuck within the cloud ?




Cool idea, but it was pretty clear that it has a sonic breath weapon in the original writeup.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

I followed the sea serpents' progressive swim speeds (Medium to Huge 100 ft., Gargantuan and Colossal 120 ft.)


----------



## JiCi (Apr 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Cool idea, but it was pretty clear that it has a sonic breath weapon in the original writeup.



Oh, that works too... how about adding a secondary effect, like the emerald and sapphire gem dragons (I think) ? I believe one of them deafens its targets, while the other shakens and/or panics its targets.

How about making the sound disruptive for the targets' lungs, which could force them to make a Constitution check or lose 1 round of held air per age category ?

Some frequencies can make use lose our lunch, so why not our air ?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> MOVE: //15"
> 
> Source:  Dragon Magazine #134, June 1988.




given that this one came out about a year before 2E's debut...



			
				Monster Manual II (1983) said:
			
		

> //X" = swimming speed




swim speed was all it was ever meant to have.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> Oh, that works too... how about adding a secondary effect, like the emerald and sapphire gem dragons (I think) ? I believe one of them deafens its targets, while the other shakens and/or panics its targets.
> 
> How about making the sound disruptive for the targets' lungs, which could force them to make a Constitution check or lose 1 round of held air per age category ?
> 
> Some frequencies can make use lose our lunch, so why not our air ?




Once again, cool ideas.  Since this one is a straight-up conversion, though, we'll probably just stick with the one breath weapon.

Speaking of the breath weapon, the original's damage was half that of a silver or red in 1E/2E (4d10 vs. 8d10).  It did the same max damage as a black dragon from this era.  So, should we stick with the black's damage progression, or try halving the red/silver's?

Survival and Swim seem like appropriate class skills.  What should be the third?

Many powerful animals have Cha 10.  I currently left it at Cha 10 at all age categories.  It leaves the frightful presence a bit underwhelming, and it was described as "fearsome".  Should we raise it progressively?

How about Wisdom?  I currently mimicked the black dragon's progression.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 4, 2007)

Hmmm, I would go with mimicking the black's breath weapon for damage. I'd say keep the Charisma low, and give the guy a +4 racial bonus to the save DC of Frightful presence.

Black Dragon Wisdom seems ok to me.

As for the skills, Hide, Survival, and Swim seem appropriate to me.


----------



## RavinRay (Apr 5, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> Oh, that works too... how about adding a secondary effect, like the emerald and sapphire gem dragons (I think) ? How about making the sound disruptive for the targets' lungs, which could force them to make a Constitution check or lose 1 round of held air per age category ?



Jici, are you reading my mind?  That's exactly what I did for my homebrew aquatic gem dragon, the aquamarine dragon. So I'll be generous and give it to the ichthyodrake as well.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

I think all that's left to decide is the CR.  I currently have them matching the CR of a black dragon.   While they are larger and have higher Str and Con and higher damage output, they lack spell-like abilities and spellcasting, and have less attack modes.  Does this seem like an even tradeoff?


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

I would say so. CR equalling black seems appropriate.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

In that case, give it a good lookover, and if nothing seems off, we're ready to move on to the next one.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

Looks good to me. Only thing I saw that needed some attention was a few formatting snafu's in the Charts, but those are ignorable.

What's next?


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

It being April, why the pink dragon, of course.    

Pink Dragon
Created by: Jeanne McGuire
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Really, really rare
ORGANIZATION: Family group
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High
TREASURE: E
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 9, Fly 18 (B)
HIT DICE: 6-8
THAC0: 15 (6 HD) or 13 (7-8 HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 (claw/claw/bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/3-18
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, possible spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Possible spell use
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: L (up to 36' long)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 650 to 2,000

Pink dragons can be found almost anywhere, most frequently in some form of underground lair. Many hapless adventurers have been fatally fooled by the dragon's dopey appearance and delicate pink coloration. Pink dragons love to talk, but they are prone to eat those who do not laugh at their jokes.

The breath weapon of the pink dragon is highly unusual. A special stomach serves to mix fatty secretions with a fluid closely resembling lye. The resulting goop produces the breath weapon, a bubble cloud similar to that produced by a horn of bubbles. This cloud is 60' long, 50' wide, and 20' high, and it lasts 2-12 rounds.  Anyone trapped in this cloud is painfully
blinded for 4-16 rounds due to soap in his eyes, making magic virtually impossible to cast; this places a -6 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, and damage (1 hp damage minimum), and negates dexterity bonuses to armor class. Movement is random as the affected person stumbles around. A successful save vs. breath weapon indicates that the character closed his eyes before the soap affected them, in which case only the normal penalties for fighting blind apply, without the distraction caused by the pain of the soap in the eyes. If the victim's eyes are protected, as by goggles, the obscuring effects alone are operative, giving only a -2 modifier to hit for as long as the bubbles last. There is no saving throw against the obscurement effect, as the cloud also affects infravision and ultravision. When the bubble cloud is in place, the dragon merely closes his transparent protective third eyelids and, using a batlike sonar, attacks with his highly accurate claw/claw/bite routine.

Those few pink dragons able to use magic (20%) gain one first-level mage spell (as per illusionists), determined randomly, for each stage of growth. If a spell is rolled twice, the dragon is able to use that spell twice per day. Due to the somewhat silly appearance of the pink dragon, it completely lacks any sort of fear aura. 

Originally appeared in Dragon #156, "Not Necessarily the Monstrous Compendium", April 1990.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

An idea from upthread:



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> I really want to see the pink dragon as a false chromatic dragon, like Krishnath's homebrew pyrite dragon would be a false metallic dragon, and my glass dragon could be re-written as a false gem dragon.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

I noticed the idea from earlier. I think the pink should have a second breath weapon. Perhaps a cone of chalky-tasting Pepto Bismol.

Heh, I just noticed something:

FREQUENCY: Really, really rare
Pink dragons can be found almost anywhere, most frequently in some form of underground lair.

Huh?

So, based on which dragon?


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> I noticed the idea from earlier. I think the pink should have a second breath weapon. Perhaps a cone of chalky-tasting Pepto Bismol.




 

Heh, I just noticed something:



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> FREQUENCY: Really, really rare
> Pink dragons can be found almost anywhere, most frequently in some form of underground lair.




Intentional humor?   



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> So, based on which dragon?




Hmmm...its HD are less than every other dragon I've checked from earlier editions.   The rattleyr appears to be the absolute weakest 3E dragon, so perhaps we can scale it down a notch (1 HD less at each age category)?


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

Sounds like a good place to start. Rattelyr -1 HD it is.

Should we base other aspects of the Rattelyr (like AC, SR, etc. ??)


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Might as well, since they at least appear to be somewhat based on HD.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Apr 5, 2007)

Since the icthyodrake is done, are you going to post it and the Maztican dragon?


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

I suppose I should, eh?   <braces himself for data entry>


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

If you hand't thought of a title for the entiries. "The Easter eggs have hatched." might work.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> If you hand't thought of a title for the entiries. "The Easter eggs have hatched." might work.




Not bad.    

I've added the Maztican dragon to the CC.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

The ichtyodrake is up now.


----------



## RavinRay (Apr 6, 2007)

Oh joy! I've been waiting ages for the pink.

Subtype: Should it have an elemental subtype at all?
HD: With the rattelyr having the fewest HD with just 2d12 at wyrmling, 1d12 for pink is really, really low. So yes, it should have the Tiny size progression as well.
AC: Should be equal to HD, since I've never seen a dragon with 0 or negative natural AC before.
Breath weapon: The effect is blindness, but the penalties also resemble those of being sickened although the -6 penalty is much more severe.
Spells: This is weird. Will we let it cast higher level spells, perhaps as a bard? Or are we going to restrict it to low level illusionist spells and only let its Cha bonus determine the number of spells per day it can cast, without any base number of spells per day?
Aura: No frightful presence here. Should it have any alternatives?
Spell-like Abilities: Any? _Tasha's Hideous Laughter_?


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 6, 2007)

As for the breath, I would think both Blinded and Sickened.


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Subtype: Should it have an elemental subtype at all?




Possibly not.  If so, I think Air is probably the most likely.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> HD: With the rattelyr having the fewest HD with just 2d12 at wyrmling, 1d12 for pink is really, really low. So yes, it should have the Tiny size progression as well.




Cool.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> AC: Should be equal to HD, since I've never seen a dragon with 0 or negative natural AC before.




Yeah, let's stick with equal to HD.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Breath weapon: The effect is blindness, but the penalties also resemble those of being sickened although the -6 penalty is much more severe.






			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> As for the breath, I would think both Blinded and Sickened.




I agree on using both conditions.

We might also be able to find inspiration in the rod of spheres from Player's Guide to Faerun:

"sole function of a rod of spheres is to create large, transparent bubbles, each with a radius of 3 feet. These bubbles glow softly, giving off light equivalent to that of a candle. The bubbles float along gently at a speed of 20 feet per round as directed by the wielder of the rod, and each can hold up to 140 pounds of creatures or items. Any object within a bubble is protected from exposure to the elements (rain, wind, snow, or the like, though the bubbles provide no special bonuses or resistances against energy attacks) and is affected as if by a feather fall spell should it fall more than 10 feet. The bubbles last up to 8 hours or until ruptured.  A bubble is not a prison; any intelligent being that is not securely bound can break a bubble with ease."



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Spells: This is weird. Will we let it cast higher level spells, perhaps as a bard? Or are we going to restrict it to low level illusionist spells and only let its Cha bonus determine the number of spells per day it can cast, without any base number of spells per day?




I kinda like the quirkiness of it gaining one 1st-level (or cantrip) from the sor/wiz list at each age category.  



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Aura: No frightful presence here. Should it have any alternatives?




Hmmm....perhaps something similar to Mammon's brand from the Brand of the Nine Hells feat?

"If you attack an opponent with more HD than you, you automatically begin to project an aura of pity in a 30-foot-radius around you. All creatures in this area must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your HD + your Cha modifier) or take a -2 penalty on attacks against you. They see you as weak, pathetic, and barely worth the effort of slaying."



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Spell-like Abilities: Any? _Tasha's Hideous Laughter_?




I could see that one.  Others might include touch of idiocy, feeblemind, tongues.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Intentional humor?




a dungeon.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Possibly not.  If so, I think Air is probably the most likely.




I don't think it needs a subtype.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, let's stick with equal to HD.




Agreed




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I kinda like the quirkiness of it gaining one 1st-level (or cantrip) from the sor/wiz list at each age category.




Like at each age category, it gets to choose one spell from the Sor/Wiz list and use that as a SLA 1/day? Or treat them more like spells. Perhaps we can glean from the Duskblade's ability to select from a certain cantrip list x times per day (where x=Age category), and the list has one spell per age category.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm....perhaps something similar to Mammon's brand from the Brand of the Nine Hells feat?
> 
> "If you attack an opponent with more HD than you, you automatically begin to project an aura of pity in a 30-foot-radius around you. All creatures in this area must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your HD + your Cha modifier) or take a -2 penalty on attacks against you. They see you as weak, pathetic, and barely worth the effort of slaying."




I like it!



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I could see that one.  Others might include touch of idiocy, feeblemind, tongues.





Agreed. _Mordenkainen's Buzzing Bee_ leaps out at me too.


----------



## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Like at each age category, it gets to choose one spell from the Sor/Wiz list and use that as a SLA 1/day? Or treat them more like spells. Perhaps we can glean from the Duskblade's ability to select from a certain cantrip list x times per day (where x=Age category), and the list has one spell per age category.




Yeah, we could work from that. 



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Agreed. _Mordenkainen's Buzzing Bee_ leaps out at me too.




Did that one make it into the Spell Compendium, or is it just in the Mini's Handbook?   Either way, we'll probably need to summarize it or offer a replacement for core-only folks.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Apr 9, 2007)

It did make it into the Spell Compendium, although Mordenkainen didn't.


----------



## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> It did make it into the Spell Compendium, although Mordenkainen didn't.




I shoulda figured that!


----------



## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

I've set up a work-in-progess in Homebrews.   Note that much of the information is still cut-and-pasted from the jacinth dragon, so it is incorrect.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 9, 2007)

For the Mord's buzzing bee. We could do a "MM2" effect, and simply describe the spell effect if they don't have the Mini's handbook or spell compendium. (It's listed as Buzzing Bee in the Spell Compendium).


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Apr 9, 2007)

Do you think Otto's irresistable dance would work as a spell-like ability for these guys?


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 9, 2007)

Possibly, but it is a powerful spell though, so only for really old ones. (possibly gained at Wyrm).


----------



## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

How's this?

Buzzing Bee (Sp):  A juvenile or older pink dragon can conjure a small but extremely loud bee to buzz around the head of a single target within X feet.  This creates an unnerving noise that disrupts the subject's concentration. The subject is distracted and takes a -10 penalty on Move Silently checks. Creatures that can't hear are not distracted. The DC of Concentration checks to cast spells or maintain concentration while distracted is equal to this spell's DC + the level of the spell being cast.  The bee has a fly speed of 180 feet (perfect). It remains near the subject in spite of darkness, invisibility, polymorph, cover, concealment, or any other attempt at disguising or hiding. The bee remains until the spell's duration expires or the subject moves out of range.  The bee can't be attacked, but it can be dispelled.

Other Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—tongues (adult or older); 1/day—feeblemind (ancient or older), Tasha's hideous laughter (old or older), Otto's irrisistible dance (great wyrm).


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 9, 2007)

Looks good. We can make the range something like 20 ft. +10 ft./age category.


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Looks good. We can make the range something like 20 ft. +10 ft./age category.




That sounds good.

How's this look for the spellcasting?

Spells:  A pink dragon does not gain spells known like other true dragons.  Instead, it may select one 0- or 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list at each age category.  It may cast a number of spells per day equal to its age category, in any combination.  Thus, a juvenile pink dragon could select ghost sound, mage armor, magic missle, and prestidigitation, and can cast four of these spells per day in any combination.  Caster level is indicated on the table above.

Would allowing it to cast a number of times per day equal to age category + Cha modifier be too much?


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

No, not really. I'd go Age+Cha.


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

How's this?

Pathetic Presence (Su): Pink dragons do not possess the frightful presence ability of other true dragons.   Instead, a young adult or older dragon projects an aura of pity when it attacks, charges, or flies overhead.  Creatures within a radius of 30 feet x the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have more HD than the dragon.  A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s pathetic presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures take a -2 penalty on attacks against the dragon, seeing it as weak, pathetic, and barely worth the effort of slaying.  Dragons ignore the pathetic presence of pink dragons.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 10, 2007)

LOL!  it's great!


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

Looks great!

Breath Weapon (Su): A pink dragon has one breath weapon, a cone of pink bubbles composed of irritants. Any living creature with eyes caught in the cone, must make a Reflex save or be blinded and sickened for 4d4 rounds. Due to the nature of the bubbles, even those that make their saves still have their vision hampered by the bubbles. Unlike most breath weapons, the pink dragon's bubbles remain in the area for 2d6 rounds, hampering vision like heavy fog. Each round, anyone who enters, moves through, or remains in the bubbles must make a save or be affected as above. Pink dragons are immune to the effects of their own breath weapons, and those of other pink dragons. In addition, a pink dragon's vision is never hampered by the bubbles.


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Lookin' good.  I'd propose that we change the duration of the condition and the amount of times the bubbles linger to a progression by age category.   Maybe a progression of 1d4 rounds per age category for the condition (to a max of 12d4 rounds at great wyrm) and linger for 1d6 rounds + one round per age category.  What do you think?


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

1d4 rounds/age is good.

Maybe we can them linger for 1 round/age category, that way the max is the current max (12).

Breath Weapon (Su): A pink dragon has one breath weapon, a cone of pink bubbles composed of irritants. Any living creature with eyes caught in the cone, must make a Reflex save or be blinded and sickened for 1d4 rounds/age category. Due to the nature of the bubbles, even those that make their saves still have their vision hampered by the bubbles. Unlike most breath weapons, the pink dragon's bubbles remain in the area for 1 round/age category, hampering vision like heavy fog. Each round, anyone who enters, moves through, or remains in the bubbles must make a save or be affected as above. Pink dragons are immune to the effects of their own breath weapons, and those of other pink dragons. In addition, a pink dragon's vision is never hampered by the bubbles.


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Perfect.

How about ability scores?   They had the intelligence of a brass dragon, so we could follow its progression.   Damage equals a black, so we could follow its Str progression (modified by size differences at given age categories).  Nothing seems to indicate anything other than Dex 10.   Since they love to talk and joke, Cha could be decent.   Wis could probably just match Int.   Thoughts?


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

Yeah, except for the Purple, the mental stats are all within 1 point of each other, so use the Brass Dragon's mental stats. Black Dragon Strength is cool, and Dex 10.

Constitution? Should we go with Black here too?


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

I don't see any reason not too.  Nothing in the text indicates it has a lesser or greater fortitude than other dragons, and since it is similar to the black in other physical stats, we could follow its Con too (modified for size differences).


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

Looks good, Spell Resistance? It says standard, should we use Brass (same as the mental stats?).


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Yes to SR, and the brass progression seems reasonable.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

So, what still have we for da Pinky??

Hide, Move Silently and Sense Motive as class skills?


----------



## Shroomy (Apr 10, 2007)

If its breath weapon hampers vision like heavy fog, don't forget to mention the possible concealment that it could afford.  Also, I would make Perfom (comedy) a class skill.


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Since Sense Motive is already a class skill for dragons, we can replace that with Perform (comedy).

I'd also prefer Bluff to either Hide, since it is interested in engaging in conversation.


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.   

As for speed, it's flight speed was slower than all the other true dragons I found.  

100 at wyrmling to 150 at great wyrm appears to be the worst flight speed progression I found.  Have you seen any worse?

Their maneuverability, on the other hand, is quite good.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

No, not really. Dragons have always been speedy fliers.

We could always knock their speed down a bit, Say 80 to 130 (Just knock 20 feet off the 100-150 progression).


----------



## RavinRay (Apr 10, 2007)

Fang dragons are relatively slow fliers, ranging from 90 to 150 ft. Oceanus dragons are similarly slow (100-150 ft.) because they are primarily aquatic. Ethereal dragons actually slow down as they age, dropping from 60 to 30 ft.!


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Fang dragons are relatively slow fliers, ranging from 90 to 150 ft. Oceanus dragons are similarly slow (100-150 ft.) because they are primarily aquatic. Ethereal dragons actually slow down as they age, dropping from 60 to 30 ft.!




Interesting!

Hmmm...how about 90 to 120 ft.?

I updated the homebrews with some flavor text.  Let me know what you think, and if there's anything you'd like to add to it.


----------



## RavinRay (Apr 10, 2007)

Speeds of 90 to 120 ft. with good to average/poor maneuverability is a fair trade-off.

Nice flavor! Pathetic Presence really hits me! Now since the _MM_ and _Draconomicon_ both give dragons their distinctive scents, what should the pink's be? Flowery? Detergent-like? I'll add the myth in my homebrew that Aasterinian may have had a role in creating this species.


----------



## Shade (Apr 11, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Speeds of 90 to 120 ft. with good to average/poor maneuverability is a fair trade-off.




Great.  I'll make it so.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Nice flavor! Pathetic Presence really hits me! Now since the _MM_ and _Draconomicon_ both give dragons their distinctive scents, what should the pink's be? Flowery? Detergent-like? I'll add the myth in my homebrew that Aasterinian may have had a role in creating this species.




Thanks!   How about it smells like a combination of soap and flowers?


----------



## Shade (Apr 11, 2007)

About all that's left is to determine CR.

The rattelyr has CR of Wyrmling 2; very young 3; young 4; juvenile 6; young adult 8; adult 10; mature adult 12; old 14; very old 16; ancient 18; wyrm 19; great wyrm 20.

The pink dragon has 1 less HD at each age category.  Additionally, it lacks any special abilities until juvenile age.  After that point, it has more special abilities than rattelyrs.

Perhaps Wyrmling 1; very young 2; young 3; juvenile 5; young adult 8; adult 10; mature adult 12; old 14; very old 16; ancient 18; wyrm 19; great wyrm 20?


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 11, 2007)

Hmmm, I'd go with the Rattelyr's progression. The Pink gets spells (not many, but some) right from 1st level, it can fly (where the Rattelyr cannot, and flight is a big advantage, especially at low levels). I think those compensate for the HD difference at the lower ages.


----------



## Shade (Apr 11, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Hmmm, I'd go with the Rattelyr's progression. The Pink gets spells (not many, but some) right from 1st level, it can fly (where the Rattelyr cannot, and flight is a big advantage, especially at low levels). I think those compensate for the HD difference at the lower ages.




I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but does the rattelyr's resistance to electricity 20,
immunity to fire, rattle, and tremorsense perhaps offset the ability to cast low-level spells?

That reminds me...I currently have them without a caster level until juvenile age category...that will need revision.


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2007)

Any other thoughts on CR?


----------



## Mortis (Apr 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but does the rattelyr's resistance to electricity 20, immunity to fire, rattle, and tremorsense perhaps offset the ability to cast low-level spells?



I say so, so I agree with 


> Perhaps Wyrmling 1; very young 2; young 3; juvenile 5; young adult 8; adult 10; mature adult 12; old 14; very old 16; ancient 18; wyrm 19; great wyrm 20?





> That reminds me...I currently have them without a caster level until juvenile age category...that will need revision.



Naughty Shade   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Naughty Shade




That's my alter ego.    

For the caster level progression, I see several possible options:

1.)  Stick with the current progression, but expand 1st to include wyrmling through juvenile as well.

2.)  Start at 1st, and then add 2 CLs at each age category, capping at 19th.

3.)  Start at 1st, and add 1 CL at each age category, capping at 12th.

4.)  Follow the steel's progression (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 19th, 20th, 21st)

5.)  Something else I hadn't considered

What do you think?


----------



## RavinRay (Apr 15, 2007)

That 3rd option with caster level +1 per age category strikes me. It's unique for a dragon; and since we've had dragons whose breath weapon progression is +1 die (brass and white), why not a dragon with a similar progression for its spellcaster level?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> That's my alter ego.




i thought that was Slim Shade?


----------



## Shade (Apr 16, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> That 3rd option with caster level +1 per age category strikes me. It's unique for a dragon; and since we've had dragons whose breath weapon progression is +1 die (brass and white), why not a dragon with a similar progression for its spellcaster level?




Sounds good.  Nothing implied that they were very potent spellcasters, anyway. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i thought that was Slim Shade?




I stood up.


----------



## Shade (Apr 18, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

Look it over one last time, and if everyone's happy we'll move on to the next one.


----------



## RavinRay (Apr 19, 2007)

Just need to edit the table to read "Pathetic Presence" and maybe add a line about how they smell.   I appreciate the part where it reads they are loathed by chromatics as mockeries of their kind.

I hope you can submit this in time for the April '08 issue of _Dragon_ if there's gonna be a Creature Catalog there.

Edit: So much for anticipating an April '08 issue of _Dragon_, with its final issue in September.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 22, 2007)

i was flipping through FC2 recently, and i noted that followers of Mammon have an abiltity similar to Pathetic Presence.


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i was flipping through FC2 recently, and i noted that followers of Mammon have an abiltity similar to Pathetic Presence.




Where do you think I got it from?


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## Shade (Apr 27, 2007)

After all the disappointment and sadness this past week, I think I need another funny one.

Paper Dragon
Created by: Kay I. Lilley
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any place with magical scrolls, books, etc.
FREQUENCY: Darn rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Any paper with magical writings
INTELLIGENCE: Very-high
TREASURE: T
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6 (2 in flight)
MOVEMENT: 6, Fly 24 (B)
HIT DICE: 2 +2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4 (claw/claw/bite/tail sting)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2/1-2/1-4/1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poisonous sting, possible spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: T (6' long)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 650

Legend holds that this almost two-dimensional creature was created to resemble, or possibly is, a true dragon. The wizard responsible for its creation was a bit eccentric (obviously) and had set out to make a guardian for his library of spells.  After creating the paper dragon and finding out how well the creature worked, he channeled more magical energy into making it a living thing, able to exist anywhere and to breed, therefore causing a new race of dragons to come forth. But in the process of accomplishing this, something went wrong, and the paper dragon's purpose was altered. Instead of protecting scrolls, it now considered them a food.  By the time the wizard found this out. the dragon had gone--and left him with an empty library.

The paper dragon can now be found in scrolls, spell books, or almost any sort of source.   It derives nourishment from the magical inks used in such writings.  Due to its two-dimensional appearance and coloration, it has a 50% chance of being mistaken in low torchlight for merely a drawing of a dragon. Closer inspection or better lighting reveals its true nature.

The paper dragon attacks by two methods.  The first method is a physical attack with two claws, a bite, and a tail sting. The tail stinger injects poison that causes sleep for two turns. If a save vs. poison is made, the effect is drowsiness that also lasts for two turns. While drowsy, the character cannot engage in any activity that requires fast movement or dexterity (climbing, picking locks, dodging missiles, etc.), and he suffers a -3 penalty on to-hit and damage rolls (minimum of 1hp damage).

The paper dragon's second mode of attack is the hurling of its most recently eaten spell.  When encountered, a paper dragon has 1-4 magical scrolls in its lair that it is saving for food. Generate each scroll using Table 90 in the AD&D 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide (pages 135-136), then generate one extra scroll to represent the last meal that the paper dragon has eaten. Randomly generate one spell from that eaten scroll, and that will be the spell the paper dragon is able to cast at the adventurers. If the scroll was a protection scroll, the dragon can create that protective effect; if the scroll was cursed, the dragon has no effective spell attack. The paper dragon casts its spell or effect by appearing to burp in the direction of its victims. If hard pressed, a paper dragon may hurriedly gulp down part or all of a scroll; it is able to eat one spell from a scroll without disturbing other spells, and it can read magic to determine which spell will be the most advantageous.  The consumption of part or all of a scroll takes one round.

Paper dragons are good natured but destructive. How they manage to reproduce is a complete mystery. If slain, a paper dragon may be unfolded like an origami figure; if the unfolder passes a dexterity check on 1d20 (to keep from tearing the paper) and if the paper dragon was not damaged in any way by its cause of death, the dragon unfolds into a 1'-square sheet of paper upon which the contents of the last scroll it has eaten are written down.

A paper dragon appears to be a very small dragon made of some expensive parchment, upon which decorations appear like handwriting or illustrations.

Originally appeared in Dragon #156, "Not Necessarily the Monstrous Compendium", April 1990.


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## RavinRay (Apr 27, 2007)

And I thought the Maztican dragon was tough - this one's gonna be a stretch for me.

The paper dragon's affinity for magical scrolls is somewhat reminiscent of the arcane dragons' (the tome dragon in particular), and like the spellhoarding dragon template. There's a magical item in _Oriental Adventures_, paper of forms, whereupon this piece of paper, when folded origami-style into the shape of an animal and the command word is spoken, transforms into a life-sized version of that animal. Maybe the paper dragon has a similar origin.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2007)

Well, just for the basics, I doubt a paper body has any natural armor, so let's say that the AC of 14 (not flying) comes from a DEX of 18.  Not quite sure why the AC is better when it's flying, though...


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## RavinRay (Apr 28, 2007)

If it's gonna be a true dragon, then I suggest it should be 3D, but have a Flatten (Su) ability that enables it to assume a 2D form which gives it a bonus on Hide and/or Disguise checks. The scribblings on its body remind me of the runes and sigils on a spellhoarding dragon.

For its natural attacks, it could share the arcane dragons' Physical Frailty, wherein it deals damage as if it were one size category smaller. In 2D form, maybe it can't employ bite, claw, and tail sting at all.

Poison: injury, initial damage sleep, (Fort save for shaken or sickened?), secondary damage?

Does the dragon actually burp when it casts a spell, or does it simple open its mouth in while facing the direction it wants to cast. If it is the former it effectively adds a verbal component to its spellcasting, which might make it vulnerable to _silence_ effects.


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2007)

How's this?

*Flatten* (Su): At will, a paper dragon can assume a two-dimensional form as a free action.  In this form, the paper dragon gains a +20 racial bonus to Disguise checks to appear as a sketch of a dragon.  Also, in two dimensional form, the dragon may not make claw, bite, or tail sting attacks.  The dragon may remain in two-dimensional form until it chooses to revert to its natural three-dimensional form.

Should we limit what level spells the dragon can "burp" up?  Otherwise, it may be difficult to assign a CR, unless you already know what spells will be in its hoard.

Regarding the poison, the secondary damage might as well be sleep, fort save negates.  For the sucessful save on the primary damage, sickened + stunned seems about right.


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## Mortis (Apr 30, 2007)

How about making its claws 'keen' - paper cuts are nasty 

It feels more like an awakene construct to me but given the thread title...

As for being ,ade of paper I would say that it has resitance/immunity to most forms of energy but is vulnerable to fire.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2007)

I'm liking these ideas.    

For the poison, I'd almost rather go with fatigued/exhausted for the damage.  Thoughts?

Mortis...the keen concept is a good one.  A similar creature, the paper golem (from a recent Dragon), has augmented critical for the same reasons.      It also has vulnerability to fire and vulnerability to slashing.   Maybe we can give it vulnerabilty to fire, and make its damage reduction /slashing rather than /magic?

Flatten looks good.

For the spell-burping, I'd suggest we give it a caster level progression, but instead of getting spells, it may consume spells of up to the max level of a sorcerer of the same caster level.  I'd like to try to work this into a breath weapon...perhaps the spell effect is treated as a cone, affecting all within (regardless of the original spell's target/area)?   Alternatively, it can gain the benefit of a consumed spell on itself as a standard action?

I definitely like the high Dex for this dragon rather than natural armor.  In fact, that's how the paper golem handles it.


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## Khisanth the Ancient (May 1, 2007)

Time to delurk on this forum...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm liking these ideas.
> 
> For the poison, I'd almost rather go with fatigued/exhausted for the damage.  Thoughts?




That sounds really neat.  Do you mean initial damage - fatigued for [Whatever time], secondary damage - exhausted for [Whatever time]?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It also has vulnerability to fire and vulnerability to slashing.   Maybe we can give it vulnerabilty to fire, and make its damage reduction /slashing rather than /magic?



Cool, definitely fire vulnerability.

If this dragon is supposed to be weak, maybe make its DR X/slashing or magic?




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For the spell-burping, I'd suggest we give it a caster level progression, but instead of getting spells, it may consume spells of up to the max level of a sorcerer of the same caster level.  [...]
> I definitely like the high Dex for this dragon rather than natural armor.  In fact, that's how the paper golem handles it.




I like the Dex too.

Just a suggestion, feel free to ignore it, but what if you did this:

* Spell Consumption (Su) *: The paper dragon can consume a spell scroll as a standard  action.  If the level of the spell on the scroll was less than or equal to half the paper dragon's age category (round up), the paper dragon gains the ability to use that spell once as a spell-like ability.


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## freyar (May 1, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For the poison, I'd almost rather go with fatigued/exhausted for the damage.  Thoughts?




I'd suggest primary damage sleep (fort save for fatigued), secondary damage exhausted (fort save negates).  How's that sound?



> Mortis...the keen concept is a good one.  A similar creature, the paper golem (from a recent Dragon), has augmented critical for the same reasons.      It also has vulnerability to fire and vulnerability to slashing.   Maybe we can give it vulnerabilty to fire, and make its damage reduction /slashing rather than /magic?




I like keen and the vulnerability and dr ideas.



> For the spell-burping, I'd suggest we give it a caster level progression, but instead of getting spells, it may consume spells of up to the max level of a sorcerer of the same caster level.  I'd like to try to work this into a breath weapon...perhaps the spell effect is treated as a cone, affecting all within (regardless of the original spell's target/area)?   Alternatively, it can gain the benefit of a consumed spell on itself as a standard action?




Nice!  I really like the idea of the spell affecting all creatures within a cone...


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## Shade (May 1, 2007)

Khisanth the Ancient said:
			
		

> Time to delurk on this forum...




Welcome back!    



			
				Khisanth the Ancient said:
			
		

> That sounds really neat.  Do you mean initial damage - fatigued for [Whatever time], secondary damage - exhausted for [Whatever time]?






			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I'd suggest primary damage sleep (fort save for fatigued), secondary damage exhausted (fort save negates).  How's that sound?




I was thinking essentially what freyar suggested.



			
				Khisanth the Ancient said:
			
		

> If this dragon is supposed to be weak, maybe make its DR X/slashing or magic?




Good suggestion.  That is probably closer to the spirit of other true dragons.



			
				Khisanth the Ancient said:
			
		

> Just a suggestion, feel free to ignore it, but what if you did this:
> 
> * Spell Consumption (Su) *: The paper dragon can consume a spell scroll as a standard  action.  If the level of the spell on the scroll was less than or equal to half the paper dragon's age category (round up), the paper dragon gains the ability to use that spell once as a spell-like ability.




I like the idea, but it would limit great wyrms to 6th-level spells.  If we can find a nice mechanic to allow 9th-level spells at great wyrm, without overpowering them on the low end, that would probably be optimal.


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## Khisanth the Ancient (May 1, 2007)

Yes, it would limit them to 6th-level spells.  What about this way:

 Spell Consumption (Su) : The paper dragon can consume a spell scroll as a standard action. If the spell on the scroll was one that could be cast by a sorcerer of the dragon's caster level, it may use that spell as a spell-like ability once.


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## Shade (May 2, 2007)

That could work.  I'd like to use this ability in addition to the spell burping breath weapon.  I picture the breath weapon being for offensive spells, while the consume spell being used for beneficial spells it casts on itself.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (May 3, 2007)

Then the paper dragon could effectively story two spells, one offensive and one defensive?  Sounds ok.  One problem with tying the spell level to the caster level, though, is that we would be denying the lowest couple of age categories a breath weapon, essentially.  Unless we use a nonstandard caster level progression.  What kind of CR level are we aiming for with these, anyway?  Like a brass dragon?


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## Shade (May 3, 2007)

Looking at the HD, these things are impossibly weak for the assumed juvenile age category.  I propose we set their HD progression like the pink's.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (May 8, 2007)

Sure, let's set the HD progression like the pink's, and why not the caster level, also?


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## RavinRay (May 8, 2007)

I think the CR rating might be even comparable to a white. HD on par with pink is fine with me.


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## freyar (May 10, 2007)

Time to think about a stat block?



			
				Khisanth the Ancient said:
			
		

> Spell Consumption (Su) : The paper dragon can consume a spell scroll as a standard action. If the spell on the scroll was one that could be cast by a sorcerer of the dragon's caster level, it may use that spell as a spell-like ability once.




So we wanted to modify this to

*Spell Consumption (Su)* : The paper dragon can consume a spell scroll as a standard action. If the spell on the scroll was one that could be cast by a sorcerer of the dragon's caster level, it may use that spell as a spell-like ability once at a range of personal.

*Spell Regurgitation (Su)*: The paper dragon can consume a spell scroll as a standard action. If the spell on the scroll was one that could be cast by a sorcerer of the dragon's caster level, it may use that spell as a breath weapon.  Regardless of the original spell's range and target description, the breath weapon affects all creatures within a cone of size xx.  Saving throws against the spell's effect are determined by the spell's level and the paper dragon's caster level.

Those can probably be cleaned up a little.   

I've also suggested



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> *Flatten (Su)*: At will, a paper dragon can assume a two-dimensional form as a free action. In this form, the paper dragon gains a +20 racial bonus to Disguise checks to appear as a sketch of a dragon. Also, in two dimensional form, the dragon may not make claw, bite, or tail sting attacks. The dragon may remain in two-dimensional form until it chooses to revert to its natural three-dimensional form.




And we wanted DR x/slashing, vulnerability to fire, and keen claw attacks.


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## Shade (May 14, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Time to think about a stat block?




I hope to get one up today.     



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> So we wanted to modify this to
> 
> *Spell Consumption (Su)* : The paper dragon can consume a spell scroll as a standard action. If the spell on the scroll was one that could be cast by a sorcerer of the dragon's caster level, it may use that spell as a spell-like ability once at a range of personal.
> 
> *Spell Regurgitation (Su)*: The paper dragon can consume a spell scroll as a standard action. If the spell on the scroll was one that could be cast by a sorcerer of the dragon's caster level, it may use that spell as a breath weapon.  Regardless of the original spell's range and target description, the breath weapon affects all creatures within a cone of size xx.  Saving throws against the spell's effect are determined by the spell's level and the paper dragon's caster level.




Lookin' good.  Since the cone size changes based on a true dragon's size, we can simply state "cone".

I like the flatten power as well.

Noted the DR x/slashing, vulnerability to fire, and keen claw attacks.


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## Shade (May 14, 2007)

OK, I've got some preliminary stats posted in Homebrews.

Note that most of the stats are directly copied from the pink dragon.  Since we agreed to follow its HD progression, we can modify from there.

We discussed it having a high Dex to account for AC rather than natural.  Should we just give it a Dex bonus equal to the pink's natural armor modifier at each category, then assign a Dex score to grant that bonus?


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## Echohawk (May 15, 2007)

*Marsh Dragon*

Over on this thread Shade requested that I post the stats for the Marsh Dragon from issue #15 of Imagine magazine. Here goes:

MARSH DRAGON (Draco Fatalus Plagues)

FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOUR CLASS: 3
MOVE: 6"/18"//9"
HIT DICE: 5-7
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: E,P,T
# ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3/2-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon + spit
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Immunity to all diseases
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average to genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
SIZE: L (25 feet long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defence modes: Nil
CHANCE OF: Speaking: 10%; Magic use: 95% (if the dragon can speak); Sleeping: 70%.
LEVEL/xp VALUE: III and up/Variable

Marsh dragons favour fetid habitats such as swamps or dank subterranean lairs. They are thoroughly evil and take great pleasure in causing mayhem, especially to any nearby human or demi-human populace. Like all dragons they are highly avaricious. It is believed that they are the result of a union between Tiamat and Anthraxus.

These creatures prefer a solitary existence, therefore an encounter with such a dragon is 75% likely to be with a single individual. This reclusive behaviour results in the deterioration of their ability to speak. Only a few still practise the art and the majority of these as a result of their preoccupation with magic. Such dragons that are able to employ spells can utilize a maximum of 8 spells. Their acquisition over the course of the dragon's life is as follows:

Very young: 1st level spell
Young: 2nd level spell
Sub-adult: 3rd level spell
Young adult: 1st level spell
Adult: 2nd level spell
Old: 3rd level spell
Very old: 4th level spell
Ancient: 5th level spell

The dragon's breath weapon is of a specialized form; it breathes forth a yellowish cloud some 5" long, 4" wide and 2" high, which is riddled with pestilence. A save vs. Breath is allowed with the following modifications due to the victim's constitution rating:

3-5 -2
6-9 -1
10-12 0
13-15 +1
16 +2
17 +3
18 +4

Failure indicates that the victim has contracted a disease (determine randomly). The affliction will always be acute in terms of occurrence, with its severity being equal to the dragon's age category (1-8). To be cured of the disease requires the intervention of a cleric 4 levels above the age category of the dragon. This immediate contraction of a disease (through a massive onslaught of thousands of pathogens in the victim's body) means damage will accrue, depending upon the severity of the disease. A mild form will cause 1/4 of the dragon's total hit points in damage, severe will result in 1/2 of the dragon's total hit points in damage, while a terminal form will have the victim suffering the full total of the dragon's hit points in damage. Of course, if a save is made then only half of the damage will be suffered.

In addition to the draconian monster's breath weapon (usable twice per day), it can spit once per day (must roll to hit) against a single target at a maximum range of 6". As well as being a mild acid (1 point of damage per age category, half if a save vs. Poison is made), the spittle will result in a parasitic infection (no save due to its extreme virulence). The actual type of infection is randomly determined although - as with the breath weapon  the severity is determined by the age of the dragon.

If the marsh dragon is forced into physical combat it will attack with two webbed fore-claws and a vicious bite.

*Description*: These reptiles are yellow in colour, although this can vary between localities, producing a range from orangeyellow to greenish-yellow. Its basic physical appearance is that of a somewhat squat dragon with a thick powerful tail, webbed claws and short stumpy, but powerful wings. Unlike most dragons, its hide is not covered in horny projections, but has more of a warty complexion on a grand scale!

Due to their preference for swamps and its frequent behaviour of hiding (90%) in mud, when first encountered they often appear to be black in colour. In fact, among the other dragons they seem to tolerate black dragons, probably because of the latter's tendency towards neutral evil and choice of habitat.

Mark Davies

IMAGINE magazine, June 1984

(Note that although it appears in a magazine published by TSR UK, the Marsh Dragon it is labeled as "New Monster (unofficial)". This was standard practice for the first part of the magazine's run, although eventually the "unofficial" label was dropped from new creatures.)


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## Shade (May 15, 2007)

Thanks Echohawk!

We'll hit this one as soon as we finish up the paper dragon.


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## freyar (May 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We discussed it having a high Dex to account for AC rather than natural.  Should we just give it a Dex bonus equal to the pink's natural armor modifier at each category, then assign a Dex score to grant that bonus?




Sounds good to me.


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## RavinRay (May 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Mystara MC
> -Crystalline
> -Jade
> -Onyx
> ...



This just occurred to me, I've been visiting the Vaults of Pandius for a long time, which is considered the Official Mystara Homepage, but I remember that it has 3.0/3.5 conversion of its dragons. You can find them listed here (scroll down to the dragon entries). We can ask the Mystara fans if those stats can be reprinted here or provide a link to them. They're about as "official" as it can get, I think.

The individual dragons are as follows:
Mystaran amber dragon
Crimson dragon
Mystaran crystal dragon
Crystalline dragon
Mystaran jade dragon 
Onyx dragon
Red hawk dragon
Mystaran ruby dragon
Mystaran sapphire dragon
Mystaran sea dragon


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## Shade (May 22, 2007)

We sometimes enjoy doing our own conversions of things that have already been done by other sites, but we can definitely but those on the backburner to give those not converted anywhere priority.


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## Shade (May 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We discussed it having a high Dex to account for AC rather than natural.  Should we just give it a Dex bonus equal to the pink's natural armor modifier at each category, then assign a Dex score to grant that bonus?




On second thought, this won't work.   The +34natural armor bonus at great wyrm would require a Dex score of 78!

So we need another tactic.   I do think they should have decent Dex (at least by dragon terms), maybe swapping the pink's Str progression with Dex (11 at wyrmling to 37 at great wyrm).   How does that sound?

For the rest of the AC, we could either give it weak natural armor, a deflection bonus, some combination of the two, or just allow it to have poor AC.


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## RavinRay (May 23, 2007)

The yellow dragon (DC Vol 1) has the fastest Dex progression of any true dragon, followed by the mercury dragon, and the 3.0 sapphire dragon (which should not be the case anymore with 3.5 psionics). None of them have Dex in the 70's at great wyrm, so a slower Dex progression for the paper dragon is fair. Add that to the natural AC of +3 per age category would give it a strong total AC when not flat-footed.


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## freyar (May 23, 2007)

I'd be most comfortable giving it the highest reasonable DEX progression along with a modest deflection bonus.  This thing is made of paper, after all!


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## Shade (May 24, 2007)

Here's an idea...give it good Dex and Cha progression, and give it a deflection bonus equal to its age category + Cha modifier.   Assuming the yellow's Dex progression and the silver's Cha progression would yield a range as follows:

Wyrmling:  17 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +3 deflection), touch 17, flat-footed 15
Adult:  26 (–1 size, +6 Dex, +11 deflection), touch 26, flat-footed 20
Great Wyrm: 40 (–4 size, +12 Dex, +22 deflection), touch 40, flat-footed 28

Compare to the pink's breakdown:

Wyrmling:  14 (+2 size, +1 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Adult:  26 (–1 size, +16 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 26
Great Wyrm: 41 (–4 size, +34 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 41

That looks pretty close, eh?


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## freyar (May 25, 2007)

Looks good to me!  Anything else we need for this one?


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## RavinRay (May 25, 2007)

None that I can think of. Now we've got a unique AC for this dragon.


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## Shade (May 30, 2007)

Sorry guys, I've been incredibly busy both at work and home.   I'll try to get this guy up to date in Homebrews in the next day or two.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

Can anyone suggest a better name for the Deflection ability?

What should be its class skills?  I'm thinking Spellcraft is a no-brainer, and Disguise and Hide seem like good options.

What should we do with this?



> If slain, a paper dragon may be unfolded like an origami figure; if the unfolder passes a dexterity check on 1d20 (to keep from tearing the paper) and if the paper dragon was not damaged in any way by its cause of death, the dragon unfolds into a 1'-square sheet of paper upon which the contents of the last scroll it has eaten are written down.




Here's something similar from the elemental grues:

"...these creatures are prized by many wizards, for at the heart of each grue lies a pearllike magic object the size of a fist, each carefully etched with the arcane workings of an elemental spell suitable for copying into a spellbook. This spell object's origins lies in the grue's own magical beginning, and is the only thing that remains of the creature if it is slain. See the individual elemental grue descriptions for details."


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Can anyone suggest a better name for the Deflection ability?




Arcane Deflection?  Still kind of blah, though.



> What should be its class skills?  I'm thinking Spellcraft is a no-brainer, and Disguise and Hide seem like good options.




Can't think of anything else more appropriate.  Appraise, Bluff, and Sense Motive might be ok from the little we have about personality.



> What should we do with this?




Let's try, "Unlike most dragons, whose hides can be made into armor, the bodies of paper dragons are useful for spellcasters of all types.  Assuming that the paper dragon has not been damaged by a slashing weapon, the paper can be unfolded (as if from an origami construction) to reveal the contents of the last scroll eaten by the paper dragon.  Unfolding the paper dragon without damaging it requires a DC15? Dex (or Sleight of Hand) check."  If this should be an SQ, maybe we could call it "Origami" or something.


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## JiCi (Jun 3, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated in Homebrews.
> 
> Look it over one last time, and if everyone's happy we'll move on to the next one.



I've been reading the pink dragon and I thought ""How about making it a true non-'April fool' chromatic dragon ?"

Shade, can you post some guidelines to convert "joke" dragons into "serious" ones ?

I was thinking about things like these:
- make the alignment Chaotic Evil
- make the breath weapon deal acid damage, with possible splash damage if an attack is made inside the breath area
- make it a devilish prankster, as an evil counterpart of the copper dragon
- add an ability to pathetic presence: if a target fails its save, it is considered flat-footed for the next attack the pink dragon makes (you know the good old "Don't hurt me ! I'll be gentle... fooled ya !" *backstabs*)

What do you say ?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Arcane Deflection?  Still kind of blah, though.




It's better than simply "Deflection", though!



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Can't think of anything else more appropriate.  Appraise, Bluff, and Sense Motive might be ok from the little we have about personality.




Sense Motive is a class skill for true dragons in general.  The other two are definitely worth consideration.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Let's try, "Unlike most dragons, whose hides can be made into armor, the bodies of paper dragons are useful for spellcasters of all types.  Assuming that the paper dragon has not been damaged by a slashing weapon, the paper can be unfolded (as if from an origami construction) to reveal the contents of the last scroll eaten by the paper dragon.  Unfolding the paper dragon without damaging it requires a DC15? Dex (or Sleight of Hand) check."  If this should be an SQ, maybe we could call it "Origami" or something.




That looks good.  Maybe the DC should increase with age category to make it less automatic?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> I've been reading the pink dragon and I thought ""How about making it a true non-'April fool' chromatic dragon ?"
> 
> Shade, can you post some guidelines to convert "joke" dragons into "serious" ones ?
> 
> ...




I think they work OK even as semi-serious creatures, as even the silly abilities are sometimes used by other serious creatures (check out the mud slaad or skeroloth for abilities similar to pathetic presence).  

If you want to make it a true chromatic dragon, though, I think your suggestions are fantastic.  You could even mix in some fire damage to make it "hot pink".


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## Mortis (Jun 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> If you want to make it a true chromatic dragon, though, I think your suggestions are fantastic.  You could even mix in some fire damage to make it "hot pink".



I would suggest that a 'true' pink dragon would be a red-white hybrid. Which would be interesting given that they are opposites given their, respective, fire and cold natures.

Regards
Mortis


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## JiCi (Jun 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think they work OK even as semi-serious creatures, as even the silly abilities are sometimes used by other serious creatures (check out the mud slaad or skeroloth for abilities similar to pathetic presence).
> 
> If you want to make it a true chromatic dragon, though, I think your suggestions are fantastic.  You could even mix in some fire damage to make it "hot pink".



Thanks !

The idea behind acid damage was simple: Ever dropped soap or shampoo in your eyes ? it burns, not from heat (associated with fire), but more from alchemical reactions (often associated with acid)

I'll modify your pink dragon when I get a chance. Thanks again for your... huh... "approval", may I say.


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 6, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> ..Which would be interesting given that they are opposites given their, respective, fire and cold natures.



And we've already got a fire-and-cold dragon in the two-headed dread linnorm.

Since the paper dragon is already dead when its body is unfolded, maybe we can call that ability "necro-" or "thanato-" something. A successful Craft (paperfolding or origami) check can also be used.


----------



## JiCi (Jun 6, 2007)

I believe he meant a dragon with both the Fire and Cold subtype RavinRay. I'll be working on a new chromatic dragon, the teal, which has a rimefire breath weapon.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 6, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> I believe he meant a dragon with both the Fire and Cold subtype RavinRay



Yup 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2007)

I updated the paper dragon again.   I think we're finished.   Give it a final lookover, and if everything looks good, we can move on to the next one.


----------



## JiCi (Jun 11, 2007)

May I suggest Savage Coast's Crimson dragon ?


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2007)

You may.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 11, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> May I suggest Savage Coast's Crimson dragon ?



Not that it prevents us doing a version, but as was pointed out in post 203 there's a version on the Vaults of Pandius. (direct link)

Regards
Mortis


----------



## JiCi (Jun 11, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Not that it prevents us doing a version, but as was pointed out in post 203 there's a version on the Vaults of Pandius. (direct link)
> 
> Regards
> Mortis



Oh... huh... eh eh... my bad...

Ok, Dragon Magazine's Rainbow dragon then ? It seems more like a good dragon at first glance, or another version of the prismatic dragon.


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> Oh... huh... eh eh... my bad...
> 
> Ok, Dragon Magazine's Rainbow dragon then ? It seems more like a good dragon at first glance, or another version of the prismatic dragon.




Let me take a look at it again (to ensure it is different enough from the prismatic).   I've been itching to do the grey dragon, and those two might make for nice opposites.


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2007)

Looking at it again, it looks different enough from the prismatic.  So without further ado...

Rainbow Dragon
Created by: Gregory Detwiler
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (5% of 2)
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVE: 9"/24" (MC: E)
HIT DICE: 10-12
% IN LAIR: 60%
TREASURE TYPE: H, S, T, U
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-B/1-8/3-30
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Major breath weapon, exceptional damage from bite, night blinding, spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Sun dazzle, low armor class, high intelligence, detect invisible/hidden beings, saving- throw bonus with age
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (50' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 100%
Magic Use: 100%
Sleeping: 20%
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 10 HD: IX/6,750 + 14 per hit point; 11-12 HD: IX/8,050 per hit point

The rainbow dragon is one of the most powerful of all evil-dragons. It is also the most beautiful, its hide displaying an everchanging display of iridescent hues of all colors. When the dragon is in bright desert light, this dazzling play of colors gleams so brightly that it is painful to the eyes, causing any attackers to attack at -2 to hit, or -4 in addition to penalties for fighting in the light if the attackers (like orcs or drow) are not accustomed to direct sunlight.

The rainbow dragon usually fights with a claw/claw/bite routine. Five times per day, it can use its breath weapon of pure energy, which looks like a rainbow-hued blast of light. This weapon does damage equal to the dragon's hit points, but affects only one target per attack. The breath weapon is a 5'-wide beam of energy that extends for 100'. So bright is this light that if the dragon attacks at night, everyone within 100' of the beam must save vs.
spells or be blinded for 1-4 rounds.  

In addition to-this, all rainbow dragons are capable of spell use. Very young and young stages of growth allow the rainbow dragon to acquire one first-level spell at each stage; at subadult and young-adult stages each, it may acquire a second-level spell. A third-level spell is gained at both the adult and old stages, and a fourth-level spell at both the very old and ancient stages. All rainbow dragons can speak and enjoy negotiating for ever-larger  tributes and payoffs from cities that wish to keep such dragons from attacking them.

Rainbow dragons aggressively patrol their territories (especially in daytime) and prefer to attack when the sun is out so as to take advantage of their light-enhancing defenses. Rainbow dragons prefer brightly lit desert and plains regions, making their lairs in old ruins or caverns.  

The blood of these beasts can be used as ingredients in scroll ink for the spells color spray, prismatic sphere, prismatic spray, and prismatic wall. A bit of bone from a rainbow dragon is said to tip the best wands of conjuration.  Attacks based on elemental sources (earth, air, fire, and water) affect the rainbow dragon normally. Electrical attacks are taken with a - 1 hp/HD penalty to damage, which is helpful if the rainbow dragon fights a blue dragon for the same territory.

Source:  Dragon #146, "The Dragon's Bestiary", Gregory Detwiler.


----------



## freyar (Jun 11, 2007)

Whatever happened to the Imagine mag marsh dragon?  (Not that I object to the rainbow dragon at all...)


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Whatever happened to the Imagine mag marsh dragon?  (Not that I object to the rainbow dragon at all...)




Oops!  I shoulda looked upstream.  OK, those are the next two.  Any preference on the order?


----------



## freyar (Jun 11, 2007)

No preference for me, really.  I'll be happy to work on either.


----------



## JiCi (Jun 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Looking at it again, it looks different enough from the prismatic.  So without further ado...
> 
> Rainbow Dragon
> Created by: Gregory Detwiler
> ...



This dragon could have an age progression that looks like the gold or the brown dragon from _Monsters of Faerun_, since it looks like the mightiest of its kind.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The rainbow dragon is one of the most powerful of all evil-dragons. It is also the most beautiful, its hide displaying an everchanging display of iridescent hues of all colors. When the dragon is in bright desert light, this dazzling play of colors gleams so brightly that it is painful to the eyes, causing any attackers to attack at -2 to hit, or -4 in addition to penalties for fighting in the light if the attackers (like orcs or drow) are not accustomed to direct sunlight.



How about an ability like this:
*Reflecting Scales (Ex)*: A rainbow dragon's scales are shiny enought to reflect light around it. Any creature within 5 feet + 10 feet per age category of the dragon must make a Reflex at their turn of be dazzled until your next turn; a successful save negates the dazzle condition. Creatures sensitive to light are blinded instead of dazzled, and a successful save makes them dazzled. Furthermore, they take a -4 penalty to the save.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The rainbow dragon usually fights with a claw/claw/bite routine. Five times per day, it can use its breath weapon of pure energy, which looks like a rainbow-hued blast of light. This weapon does damage equal to the dragon's hit points, but affects only one target per attack. The breath weapon is a 5'-wide beam of energy that extends for 100'. So bright is this light that if the dragon attacks at night, everyone within 100' of the beam must save vs.
> spells or be blinded for 1-4 rounds.



*Breath Weapon (Su)*: A rainbow dragon has one type of breath weapon, a ray of focused rainbow-hued light. Unlike other breath weapons, this ability requires a ranged touch attack, and the range is equal to a line area according to the age category, with no range increment. Furthermore, only one target can be affected by the breath weapon.

The target takes 2d6 points of damage per age category. Creatures sensitive to light take double damage instead. Regarless of weaknesses, a Reflex save halves the damage.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> In addition to-this, all rainbow dragons are capable of spell use. Very young and young stages of growth allow the rainbow dragon to acquire one first-level spell at each stage; at subadult and young-adult stages each, it may acquire a second-level spell. A third-level spell is gained at both the adult and old stages, and a fourth-level spell at both the very old and ancient stages. All rainbow dragons can speak and enjoy negotiating for ever-larger  tributes and payoffs from cities that wish to keep such dragons from attacking them.



The spells will have to go according to the age categories, the gold or the brown as I suggest.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Rainbow dragons aggressively patrol their territories (especially in daytime) and prefer to attack when the sun is out so as to take advantage of their light-enhancing defenses. Rainbow dragons prefer brightly lit desert and plains regions, making their lairs in old ruins or caverns.



Not a problem here.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The blood of these beasts can be used as ingredients in scroll ink for the spells color spray, prismatic sphere, prismatic spray, and prismatic wall. A bit of bone from a rainbow dragon is said to tip the best wands of conjuration.  Attacks based on elemental sources (earth, air, fire, and water) affect the rainbow dragon normally. Electrical attacks are taken with a - 1 hp/HD penalty to damage, which is helpful if the rainbow dragon fights a blue dragon for the same territory.



Immunity to light-based spells and effects and resistance to electicity look good.

How about it ?


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 12, 2007)

The rainbow dragon seems to me, flavor-wise, the ultimate chromatic dragon as it comes in all colors. It reminds me of the homebrew spectral dragon (again, at the Vaults of Pandius), a multi-headed dragon similar to an aspect of Tiamat. It's also reminiscent of the polychromatic dragon (mentioned by JiCi here).

Should the breath weapon deal regular hp damage only (aside from blindness), and is it feasible to model it after _color spray_?

Spellcasting with 1st level at very young age means that if it follows standard progression rules it will be a 21st caster at great wyrm.

Since its blood can be used for scrolls of _color spray, prismatic sphere, prismatic spray_, and _prismatic wall_, should they be its spell-like abilities (which might make it too similar to the prismatic dragon then)?

Should it have a fixed resistance to electricity value, or should the dragon just substract 1 hp per hd damage?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 12, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Should the breath weapon deal regular hp damage only (aside from blindness)?



Well the original did hit point damage - 


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The rainbow dragon usually fights with a claw/claw/bite routine. Five times per day, it can use its breath weapon of pure energy, which looks like a rainbow-hued blast of light. *This weapon does damage equal to the dragon's hit points*, but affects only one target per attack. The breath weapon is a 5'-wide beam of energy that extends for 100'. So bright is this light that if the dragon attacks *at night*, everyone within 100' of the beam must save vs. spells or be blinded for 1-4 rounds.



My emphasis - the blindness only applies at night.


			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> and is it feasible to model it after color spray?



I suggest modelling the breath weapon on _Prismatic Spray_. Although how it would vary depending on age category would be interesting.




			
				JiCi said:
			
		

> Hmmm... is it a typo ? because it says that this dragon is Neutral Evil in its stat block, and it says that it is the most powerful of all evil-dragons.



I don't see the problem here Neutral EVil is afterall Evil! - unless I'm missing something.   
Regards
Mortis


----------



## JiCi (Jun 12, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I don't see the problem here Neutral EVil is afterall Evil! - unless I'm missing something.



D'OH *facepalm*

I should learn to actually read stuff before posting. I read something like: "The rainbow dragon is one of the most powerful of all *non*evil-dragons".

Woops...


----------



## JiCi (Jun 12, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> My emphasis - the blindness only applies at night.



Hmmm... I'm not too sure about this one. Its scales can already blind targets. We could limit it the attended target of the breath weapon though.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I suggest modelling the breath weapon on _Prismatic Spray_. Although how it would vary depending on age category would be interesting.



_Prismatic Spray_ doesn't a viable option, especially for a non-epic dragon. In the prismatic dragon's case, its high DC made it a real challenge, but than again it doesn't guaranty a good amount of damage, especially since the effect depends on one of the saves, not just Reflex. I took the idea from _Races of the Dragon_: a half-prismatic dragon gains a special breath weapon that mimics _searing light_ (ranged touch attack, extra damage to undead, etc.).


----------



## Mortis (Jun 12, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> I should learn to actually read stuff before posting. I read something like: "The rainbow dragon is one of the most powerful of all *non*evil-dragons".



That would make a difference. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Jun 12, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> Hmmm... I'm not too sure about this one. Its scales can already blind targets. We could limit it the attended target of the breath weapon though.



The scales blind opponents in bright light (such as sunlight), the breath weapon does the same in the dark. 



> _Prismatic Spray_ doesn't (seem) a viable option, especially for a non-epic dragon. In the prismatic dragon's case, its high DC made it a real challenge, but than again it doesn't guaranty a good amount of damage, especially since the effect depends on one of the saves, not just Reflex. I took the idea from _Races of the Dragon_: a half-prismatic dragon gains a special breath weapon that mimics _searing light_ (ranged touch attack, extra damage to undead, etc.).



You could start with a 3 colour ray and add a colour per 2 age categories and at the Wyrm stage give it the chance of 2 rays hitting an opponent. I think a breath weapon that gives a (small) chance of plane shifting (etc) an opponent is worth a look. For the rays that deal hp damage, the amount of damage could be based on the age category.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jun 12, 2007)

Since we're done with the pink dragon, when is it going to be posted?


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2007)

Heh.  It looks like you guys voted, and the rainbow won.    

For the breath weapon, I'd like to avoid a prismatic spray style weapon.  I'd prefer if this guy didn't end up as the "prismatic dragon lite".   I'm not opposed to adding a second breath weapon, though.  Maybe we could have it do all five energy types in equal amounts (like the rainbow blast spell from Spell Compendium)?   

Color spray and rainbow pattern seem like no-brainers for SLAs.

As far as its power level goes, its HD place it between the white and black...hardly "one of the most powerful  evil dragons".   I'm alright with leaning more heavily towards that statement, though, and giving it a bit of a boost, maybe on par with the red, but not exceeding it.   Otherwise, we're moving closer to epic territory again.

I do like the idea of it being a bit of an "ultimate chromatic dragon" as suggested, and focusing on all colors at once.  If nothing else, it could be "the most versatile chromatic dragon".   Since it is neutral evil, it could also act as a mediator between the various species on Tiamat's behalf.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe we could have it do all five energy types in equal amounts (like the rainbow blast spell from Spell Compendium)?



That works for me.



> Color spray and rainbow pattern seem like no-brainers for SLAs.



It would look that way. 



> As far as its power level goes, its HD place it between the white and black...hardly "one of the most powerful  evil dragons".   I'm alright with leaning more heavily towards that statement, though, and giving it a bit of a boost, maybe on par with the red, but not exceeding it.   Otherwise, we're moving closer to epic territory again.



No problem with 'upping it a bit'



> I do like the idea of it being a bit of an "ultimate chromatic dragon" as suggested, and focusing on all colors at once.  If nothing else, it could be "the most versatile chromatic dragon".   Since it is neutral evil, it could also act as a mediator between the various species on Tiamat's behalf.



One way to up it's power level (at least defensively) would be to give it a universal energy resistance power with perhaps universal immunity at the wyrm or great wyrm age category.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jun 12, 2007)

[As far as its power level goes, its HD place it between the white and black...hardly "one of the most powerful  evil dragons".   I'm alright with leaning more heavily towards that statement, though, and giving it a bit of a boost, maybe on par with the red, but not exceeding it.   Otherwise, we're moving closer to epic territory again.]

This is a 1st edition dragon.  In 1e, the red dragon had 9-11 HD, and the gold had 10-12 HD, the same as what the rainbow dragon has.


----------



## JiCi (Jun 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For the breath weapon, I'd like to avoid a prismatic spray style weapon.  I'd prefer if this guy didn't end up as the "prismatic dragon lite".   I'm not opposed to adding a second breath weapon, though.  Maybe we could have it do all five energy types in equal amounts (like the rainbow blast spell from Spell Compendium)?



Sounds good to me, yet it could add a secondary effect to light-sensitive creatures.


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> This is a 1st edition dragon.  In 1e, the red dragon had 9-11 HD, and the gold had 10-12 HD, the same as what the rainbow dragon has.




D'oh!   Sure 'nuff.   We can most certainly follow the red or gold progression, then.


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2007)

OK, comparing some of the stats to 1E red and gold dragons...

ARMOR CLASS: -2  (same as gold)
MOVE: 9"/24" (MC: E) (same as red)
HIT DICE: 10-12 (same as gold)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-B/1-8/3-30 (same as red)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard (same as red)
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (same as red)
SIZE: L (50' long) (2' longer than red, 4' shorter than gold)

So, shall we follow the gold's HD progression and AC, and the red's size progression, speed, Str, and Int?


----------



## JiCi (Jun 12, 2007)

You got it.

Oh, and for skills, I suggest Appraise, Bluff and Intimidate for class skills.

Suggestions for spell-like abilities: color spray, rainbow pattern, lucent lance (sounds good), light, daylight


----------



## freyar (Jun 12, 2007)

Following gold and red seems about right to me.  Also, rather than the business about learning spells per age category, perhaps we should follow gold or red caster level progression as usual.

For the breath weapon, I wouldn't make it a ranged touch attack and allow a reflex save.  Perhaps the reflex save but a note that it affects only one target?  Or make it a ranged touch attack (which I think should automatically only affect one target).  If we make a second breath weapon, maybe we should make it something a little more traditional, affecting multiple targets.  I'd go for a cone, myself.

I like the universal energy resistance idea.


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Following gold and red seems about right to me.  Also, rather than the business about learning spells per age category, perhaps we should follow gold or red caster level progression as usual.




Good idea.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> For the breath weapon, I wouldn't make it a ranged touch attack and allow a reflex save.  Perhaps the reflex save but a note that it affects only one target?  Or make it a ranged touch attack (which I think should automatically only affect one target).  If we make a second breath weapon, maybe we should make it something a little more traditional, affecting multiple targets.  I'd go for a cone, myself.




For the first, I think it should remain a line, as the original text seemed to imply.  Cone sounds good for second.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I like the universal energy resistance idea.




Me too.


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2007)

OK, gathering up what we've got so far...

HD progression - as gold dragon
AC progression - as gold dragon
Size progression - as red dragon
Speed - as red dragon
Ability scores - as red dragon (we can modify as we wish)




			
				Dragon #146 said:
			
		

> The rainbow dragon is one of the most powerful of all evil-dragons. It is also the most beautiful, its hide displaying an everchanging display of iridescent hues of all colors. When the dragon is in bright desert light, this dazzling play of colors gleams so brightly that it is painful to the eyes, causing any attackers to attack at -2 to hit, or -4 in addition to penalties for fighting in the light if the attackers (like orcs or drow) are not accustomed to direct sunlight.




JiCi suggested this...



			
				JiCi said:
			
		

> How about an ability like this:
> Reflecting Scales (Ex): A rainbow dragon's scales are shiny enought to reflect light around it. Any creature within 5 feet + 10 feet per age category of the dragon must make a Reflex at their turn of be dazzled until your next turn; a successful save negates the dazzle condition. Creatures sensitive to light are blinded instead of dazzled, and a successful save makes them dazzled. Furthermore, they take a -4 penalty to the save.







			
				Dragon #146 said:
			
		

> The rainbow dragon usually fights with a claw/claw/bite routine. Five times per day, it can use its breath weapon of pure energy, which looks like a rainbow-hued blast of light. This weapon does damage equal to the dragon's hit points, but affects only one target per attack. The breath weapon is a 5'-wide beam of energy that extends for 100'. So bright is this light that if the dragon attacks at night, everyone within 100' of the beam must save vs. spells or be blinded for 1-4 rounds.




I'd like to avoid the single-target and stick to the more traditional line for this breath weapon.   I agree with this dealing untyped hp damage.   Should the blinding effect be limited to darkness, or also shadowy illumination?

For the secondary breath weapon, is everyone OK with a cone dealing multiple energy types?   Should we leave off sonic, since it isn't associated with other chromatic dragons or prismatic spells, or include it like the rainbow blast spell?




			
				Dragon #146 said:
			
		

> In addition to-this, all rainbow dragons are capable of spell use. Very young and young stages of growth allow the rainbow dragon to acquire one first-level spell at each stage; at subadult and young-adult stages each, it may acquire a second-level spell. A third-level spell is gained at both the adult and old stages, and a fourth-level spell at both the very old and ancient stages. All rainbow dragons can speak and enjoy negotiating for ever-larger tributes and payoffs from cities that wish to keep such dragons from attacking them.






			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Following gold and red seems about right to me. Also, rather than the business about learning spells per age category, perhaps we should follow gold or red caster level progression as usual.




I like freyar's suggestion.  Anyone opposed?



			
				Dragon #146 said:
			
		

> Rainbow dragons aggressively patrol their territories (especially in daytime) and prefer to attack when the sun is out so as to take advantage of their light-enhancing defenses. Rainbow dragons prefer brightly lit desert and plains regions, making their lairs in old ruins or caverns.




This all looks like flavor text.



			
				Dragon #146 said:
			
		

> The blood of these beasts can be used as ingredients in scroll ink for the spells color spray, prismatic sphere, prismatic spray, and prismatic wall. A bit of bone from a rainbow dragon is said to tip the best wands of conjuration.




We can add a little section on this.



			
				Dragon #146 said:
			
		

> Attacks based on elemental sources (earth, air, fire, and water) affect the rainbow dragon normally. Electrical attacks are taken with a - 1 hp/HD penalty to damage, which is helpful if the rainbow dragon fights a blue dragon for the same territory.




We've got several votes for the universal energy resistance suggestion.   Anyone disagree?   If we use it, should we leave off sonic, so it keeps a vulnerability?   Do we want to set the resistance equal to age category (1 for wyrmling, 12 for great wyrm) or have it go up in increments of 5 like DR?



			
				Jici said:
			
		

> Oh, and for skills, I suggest Appraise, Bluff and Intimidate for class skills.




Intimidate is always a class skill for dragons.  The other two sound good.  Suggestions for the third?

For spell-like abilities:   color spray, rainbow pattern, a few of the lesser prismatic spells?


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Since we're done with the pink dragon, when is it going to be posted?




1 minute ago.    

I'll post the paper after giving folks another day or two to look it over.


----------



## freyar (Jun 12, 2007)

Reflecting scales looks good, though do light-sensitive creatures really need to get hammered on the save as well?  I'd suggest no penalty or maybe a -2 on the save.  The original text seems to only penalize light-sensitives on the damage.

I like Shade's suggestions on the breath weapons.  I'd leave off sonic and make it vulnerable to sonic, as "opposed" to light.  Seems a little more flavorful.

The SLAs sound good.


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> HD progression - as gold dragon
> AC progression - as gold dragon
> Size progression - as red dragon
> Speed - as red dragon
> ...



The purple is actually superior to the red (just about equaling the gold), though of course it's not your typical chromatic. The rainbow could, just could, match the purple, so having HD and AC match the gold dragon's does it for me.


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We've got several votes for the universal energy resistance suggestion. Anyone disagree? If we use it, should we leave off sonic, so it keeps a vulnerability? Do we want to set the resistance equal to age category (1 for wyrmling, 12 for great wyrm) or have it go up in increments of 5 like DR?





			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I'd leave off sonic and make it vulnerable to sonic, as "opposed" to light.



Definitely no sonic immunity, as none of the five original chromatic dragons (or the brown and "missing" chromatics for that matter) have sonic immunity, and it is meant to combine bits of each of the five. Even the aspects of Tiamat don't have sonic immunity. As for resistance,  prefer it progresses like DR (+5).


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should the blinding effect be limited to darkness, or also shadowy illumination?



I'd say blindness in total darkness and dazzled in shadowy illumination.

Spellcasting: From young 1st-level to great wyrm 19th-level, with access to cleric spells and cleric domains. Too bad the rainbow domain from the Plane of Radiance article in _Dragon_ isn't OGC. But we can put a sidebar that if you do have that issue, you can add the rainbow domain.


----------



## Shade (Jun 13, 2007)

Posted in Homebrews.

Should we give it multiple subtypes, or just go with Light like the prismatic?

What damage progression should we follow for the breath weapon?

I toned down the spellcasting progression a notch so it wouldn't eclipse the gold.


----------



## JiCi (Jun 13, 2007)

Go with light, it would be a bit too much to give it too much subtypes.


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 14, 2007)

Yep, light subtype works best, and it also doesn't have any energy immunity derived from an elemental subtype, just energy resistance.


----------



## freyar (Jun 14, 2007)

Let's go with the light subtype, then.  I'd suggest either 2d10 per age category (red/gold) or 2d8 per age category (blue/silver) for the breath weapons.  Or maybe the cone weapon should act as color spray with some progressively more and more insane save DC as the age category advances?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 14, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd suggest either 2d10 per age category (red/gold) or 2d8 per age category (blue/silver) for the breath weapons.



This brings up a question regarding the secondary breath weapon. Going up 2d8 or 2d10 for each energy type (acid, cold, electricity, and fire) may be a bit powerful. 

Would 1d8 or 1d10 be OK or should we reduce it further to 1d4 or 1d6.

Personally I think that 1d6 per age category is perhaps the way to go. Which would mean a wyrmling would be doing 1d6 acid, 1d6 cold, 1d6 electricity and 1d6 fire up to the Great Wyrm doing 12d6 of each.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> This brings up a question regarding the secondary breath weapon. Going up 2d8 or 2d10 for each energy type (acid, cold, electricity, and fire) may be a bit powerful.
> 
> Would 1d8 or 1d10 be OK or should we reduce it further to 1d4 or 1d6.
> 
> Personally I think that 1d6 per age category is perhaps the way to go. Which would mean a wyrmling would be doing 1d6 acid, 1d6 cold, 1d6 electricity and 1d6 fire up to the Great Wyrm doing 12d6 of each.




I was thinking more along the lines of "breath weapon deals 4d6 damage at this age category, divided by four (dropping remainder) to determine the amount of each type of energy dealt".   Does that work?

I'll go with the Light subtype as you all suggested.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I was thinking more along the lines of "breath weapon deals 4d6 damage at this age category, divided by four (dropping remainder) to determine the amount of each type of energy dealt".   Does that work?



It works - but I prefer the individual dice which would give varying amounts of damage for each type of energy.

If it was LE I would vote for your suggestion.
It it was CE I would vote for mine.
As its NE (at least in 1st ed), well... 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2007)

It's definitely possible to do it either way.  I'm more for the "roll 'em all and divide" simply because that's how similar monsters do it (pyroclastic dragon and hellfire wyrm, for example).  Not that rolling separate color-coded dice for different energy types isn't fun.    

What do the rest of you think?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It's definitely possible to do it either way.  I'm more for the "roll 'em all and divide" simply because that's how similar monsters do it (pyroclastic dragon and hellfire wyrm, for example).



Well if that's how it's done let's not rock the boat.  


> Not that rolling separate color-coded dice for different energy types isn't fun.



'Til you forget what the mauve dice represented.   



> What do the rest of you think?



I suggest we stick with Shade's method as it has been used offically before.

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I suggest we stick with Shade's method as it has been used offically before.




Works for me.


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 14, 2007)

Split the die rolls pyroclastic and hellfire style (and iron style, for that matter)


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2007)

OK, so do we want to go the 2d10 route like the gold and red, or tone it down to 2d8 like the silver and blue to account for the greater versatility of energy damage?

Should the "energy beam" breath weapon deal untyped damage like the purple dragon's?


----------



## freyar (Jun 15, 2007)

Go with 2d8 per age category and untyped damage on the line, I'd say.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 15, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Go with 2d8 per age category and untyped damage on the line, I'd say.



I agree with the untyped damagefor the line, and as its for the secondary breath weapon 2d8 per age category seems enough.

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Jun 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'll post the paper after giving folks another day or two to look it over.



<cough... cough> 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> <cough... cough>




What I should have said was "a couple days plus my vacation".    

I'll post it today.


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## JiCi (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Let me take a look at it again (to ensure it is different enough from the prismatic).   I've been itching to do the grey dragon, and those two might make for nice opposites.



Well, I've made a grey dragon right here and I believe that the Dragonlance Campaign Setting has a grey dragon template, which is considered a degenerating template, if you're craving to use a grey dragon soon in your game.

Hold that thought, the original might be cooler than my homebrewed version.


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Paper dragon has been entered into the CC.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> Well, I've made a grey dragon right here and I believe that the Dragonlance Campaign Setting has a grey dragon template, which is considered a degenerating template, if you're craving to use a grey dragon soon in your game.
> 
> Hold that thought, the original might be cooler than my homebrewed version.




Yeah, the one in the same issue as the rainbow is a DL dragon.   I was actually thinking of the gray dragon in a different issue, but on a second look, it appears to be a unique dragon.


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

OK, so 2d8/age category breath weapon progression and untyped energy damage for the line seem the popular choices.

Help fill in the blanks...
Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—color spray (juvenile or older), rainbow pattern (old or older), ? (adult or older); 1/day—? (ancient or older), ? (great wyrm).

For energy resistance, do we want to give it out in increments of 5 at the same age categories as the DR, or mix it up a bit?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For energy resistance, do we want to give it out in increments of 5 at the same age categories as the DR, or mix it up a bit?



I favour the first approach. But, maybe, consider immunity to the listed energies at the great wyrm age category?



> The blood of these beasts can be used as ingredients in scroll ink for the spells color spray, prismatic sphere, prismatic spray, and prismatic wall. A bit of bone from a rainbow dragon is said to tip the best wands of conjuration.



Maybe add a line that the bone can also be used in the (IIRC) Epic rings of universal resistance/immunity.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 22, 2007)

I agree with Mortis on the +5 energy resistance, but add that sonic vulnerability as well as a fair trade-off. I don't know of any monster (aside from crystalline creatures affected by _shatter_ spells and the like) that specifically has sonic vulnerability. Maybe it should be vulnerable not only to sonic effects that do hp damage, but also to other effects that use sound. A penalty to saving throws for those sonic effects, perhaps?


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

So...

Resistance to acid, cold, electricity, and fire 5 at young adult, increasing by 5 at every 2 age categories thereafter, becoming immunity at great wyrm?

And this?

Vulnerability to Sonic (Ex):  A rainbow dragon takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from sonic effects, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.  Additionally, a rainbow dragon suffers a -2 penalty vs. spells or effects with the sonic descriptor that do not deal hit point damage.


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 22, 2007)

That's great! Looking at some sonic effects at d20srd.org, some deal deafness (naturally), while others like _sound burst_ stun targets. A crafty mage knows what spells to use against a rainbow dragon.


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

Indeed!  Achilles' heels are always fun.

I've updated in Homebrews.   We still need the following:


SLAs for adult, ancient, and great wyrm age categories
A third class skill


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jun 22, 2007)

How about prismatic spray and sunburst?

There are several spells in Spell Compendium that might work (I'm thinking of prismatic ray in particular), but I don't know if you want to use non-core material.


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

Those could work.  We were trying to avoid too much similarity with the prismatic dragon, but its breath weapon is the prismatic spray, so giving it to the rainbow as a SLA should be dissimilar enough.  

Sunburst is given to old prismatic dragons 3/day.   If we give it to rainbow at ancient or great wyrm 1/day, that is probably toned down enough, eh?


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

I wrote up some flavor text.  Let me know what you think.

For the third class skill, how about Spellcraft?


----------



## freyar (Jun 22, 2007)

Spellcraft seems appropriate.

For SLAs, we could go with _sunbeam_ instead of (or in addition to) _sunburst_.  Not many other rainbow themed spells come to mind, but what about some minor SLAs a few times a day each for the different energy types?


----------



## Shade (Jun 25, 2007)

Sunbeam sounds better.   How about sunbeam at ancient and prismatic spray at great wyrm, both 1/day?

For the adult category, what if we gave it the following ability?

Energy Ray (Sp):  As scorching ray, except the rainbow dragon may choose to fire rays of any of the following energy types:  acid, cold, electricity, or fire.  When its caster level allows more than one ray, the rainbow dragon may choose to fire rays of different energy types.


----------



## freyar (Jun 25, 2007)

_Energy Ray_ sounds good.  How about 3/day at adult?  Or more?  This isn't terribly potent against high-level PCs, probably.


----------



## Shade (Jun 25, 2007)

3/day at adult sounds about right.  It's not wickedly powerful, but it doesn't allow a save and can be used in rounds between breath weapon uses.  Best of all, as a 2nd-level equivalent, many rainbow dragons can employ Quicken Spell-Like Ability on it.


----------



## freyar (Jun 26, 2007)

Anything else left on this one?


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 26, 2007)

Ditto for _energy ray_, though psionic purists like me will complain that it imitates the power of the same name.


----------



## Shade (Jun 26, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Ditto for _energy ray_, though psionic purists like me will complain that it imitates the power of the same name.




I thought that seemed familiar, even though I was attempting to be original.


----------



## Shade (Jun 26, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.   Give it one more lookover, and then we'll move on to the swamp dragon.


----------



## JiCi (Jun 27, 2007)

Hmmm... I've been thinking... if it has a vulnerability to sonic, should it get a bonus to Listen checks, to represent its sensitive hearing ?


----------



## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

It could, though it isn't a must.   It's not a bad idea, but I'm tempted to pass, simply because most dragons lack a racial bonus on skills.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 28, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It could, though it isn't a must.   It's not a bad idea, but I'm tempted to pass, simply because most dragons lack a racial bonus on skills.



It could be argued that it's hearing is *too* sensitive and it has problems sorting out background noise from other sounds. I'd leave it as it is.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Jun 28, 2007)

This looks pretty good as is to me.


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 29, 2007)

I'd like to think the rainbow dragon is just susceptible to sonic attacks but isn't very good at deciphering sounds. The blue dragon, which can imitate sounds, doesn't have Listen bonuses.

By the way, what about the Rainbow Domain spells from _Dragon_? Most are in the _PH_.


----------



## JiCi (Jun 29, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated in Homebrews.   Give it one more lookover, and then we'll move on to the swamp dragon.



The young dragon entry has a ? mark. Something's missing ?


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> The young dragon entry has a ? mark. Something's missing ?




Good catch.  That was a placeholder when we were working up the abilities.  I'll change it to "-".



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> By the way, what about the Rainbow Domain spells from Dragon? Most are in the PH.




Hmmm..we're still lacking domains, aren't we?   

Do you mean the Radiance domain from Dragon #321?  It gets 1 - Color Spray, 2 - Hypnotic Pattern, 3 -  Searing Light, 4 - Faerie Fire, Widened, 5 - Rainbow Pattern,  6 - Rainbow, 7 - Prismatic Spray, 8 - Scintillating Pattern, 9 - Prismatic Wall.  

The red gets access to three domains (Chaos, Evil, Fire).   From the core, Sun seems like a good fit.  Evil always works for evil dragons.   Maybe Protection as well?   A combination of Sun and Protection comes fairly close to the Radiance domain as far as covering the core spells within.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 29, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> The red gets access to three domains (Chaos, Evil, Fire).   From the core, Sun seems like a good fit.  Evil always works for evil dragons.   Maybe Protection as well?   A combination of Sun and Protection comes fairly close to the Radiance domain as far as covering the core spells within.



Evil, Protection, and Sun should do. Could always add a magazine style sidebar to the effect that if you have access to Dragon 331 (or Spell Compendium?) then exchange the Protection(?) domain for the Radiance domain).

Regards
MOrtis


----------



## Shade (Jul 2, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Evil, Protection, and Sun should do. Could always add a magazine style sidebar to the effect that if you have access to Dragon 331 (or Spell Compendium?) then exchange the Protection(?) domain for the Radiance domain).




Does this work for the rest of you?


----------



## JiCi (Jul 3, 2007)

Looks good to me... ok, we still need a picture of that beast, but hey, that can wait.


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 3, 2007)

It does for me, as I'm the one who suggested the Radiance domain.


----------



## freyar (Jul 3, 2007)

Sure thing.


----------



## Shade (Jul 3, 2007)

Then we can call this one done and move on to the Swamp Dragon.

I'll add the rainbow dragon to the CC with the next batch of 10 (which is nearly ready).


----------



## freyar (Jul 3, 2007)

Well, if you like unusual breath weapons, the marsh/swamp dragon is for you!  A few issues with this one that I notice right away: reflex or fort save to avoid damage and infection?  I'd say reflex, since the idea is that the breath is just incredibly infectious.  Next, the disease inflicted is supposed to be random (but only curable by a higher level cleric).  I'd make a new disease called marsh dragon fever (curable only by certain spells or SLAs) with probably a hefty amount of Con damage per day.  Then the disease is supposed to be so infectious that exposure to the breath itself causes hp damage immediately.  Seems easy enough to do, I guess.  Just my cp on this.

I'd guess the spit should be a ranged touch attack.  Also, this dragon should have a slow caster level progression.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2007)

Compared to 1E dragons (since it's from 1984), it looks comparable to a white dragon in size and Hit Dice.


----------



## freyar (Jul 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Compared to 1E dragons (since it's from 1984), it looks comparable to a white dragon in size and Hit Dice.




Sounds like a place to start.  One of these days, I'll look through the diseases and see what I come up with.


----------



## freyar (Jul 11, 2007)

I'll take a crack at some of these special abilities:

*Spit (Ex):* Once per day, a marsh dragon can spit at one creature as a ranged touch attack.  A successful spit attack deals 1d6 points of acid damage (Fort/Ref save DCx for half ?) and infects the target with marsh fever (no save because the spit is highly infectious).

*Breath Weapon:*  The marsh dragon's breath weapon is a cone of infectious vapor.  A creature caught in the area of the breath takes the hit point damage indicated due to sudden exposure to numerous pathogens (Ref save half).  In addition, it must make a Fort save or contract marsh fever.

*Marsh Fever:*  This is a supernatural inhaled disease with a 1 day incubation period which always originates from a marsh dragon.  Each day, the victim must make a Fort save (of the same DC as the dragon's breath weapon) or take 1d6 hit points of damage per age category of the originating dragon.  This disease can be cured only by the spells _remove disease_, _heal_, or _mass heal_.  The caster must succeed at a caster level check with DC equal to 10 + the originating dragon's age category.

I thought about making this contagious, but maybe that would be too devastating if an explorer happened to come by after getting infected.  Anyway, the original mechanics seemed a bit clunky, but I tried to keep the spirit of it.


----------



## Shade (Jul 12, 2007)

Lookin' good so far.  I'll try to get a Homebrews started for this fella later today.


----------



## freyar (Jul 12, 2007)

Other than the disease, etc, is there anything unusual about this one?  I'd give it abilities and spell casting basically like a white dragon.  Not sure how many SLAs this should have, but things like _contagion_ spring rapidly to mind.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2007)

I've got some preliminary stats (based off the white dragon) going in Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Jul 13, 2007)

Looks like a good start, but I wonder if these should have a swim speed.  Just a thought.  I'll think about SLAs a little more, too.


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 13, 2007)

Yeah, needs a swim speed too. They allegedly have a yugoloth heritage. Any general yugoloth abilities we can use for them? I'd use _turbidity_ from _Stormwrack_ as an (Sp), if only it were in the SRD. I don't want to use _darkness_ as the black dragon already has it. It is said to have a warty hide - does this mean it has slightly lower Cha scores, or perhaps it serves as a bonus to the frightful presence?

Speaking of the black dragon, I'd guess these two are rivals and enemies and attack one another on sight.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 14, 2007)

This ability from Monster Manual II may be useful for the marsh dragon:

Marsh Move (Ex): Swamplight lynxes take no movement penalties for moving in marshes or mud.

For SLAs: I second contagion.  Other possibilities: Melf's acid arrow, stinking cloud, cloudkill, and plague (from Player's Handbook II).


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2007)

Acid arrow, stinking cloud, and cloudkill all seem like good possibilities to me, also, though stinking cloud and cloudkill may be too similar.  I hesitate about a PHBII spell, though.  Something like poison or even transmute rock to mud might work, too.

RavinRay, I would like your suggestion about the black dragons, but the original text says that marsh dragons get along better with blacks than other varieties of dragon. 

Something like Marshmove would be a good idea, too.


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 14, 2007)

Oops, my bad.


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 15, 2007)

I'll take a look at the Krynnish amphidragon, said to be a cross between a green dragon and the turtle-like sea dragon, as it is the only other true dragon I know of that has a warty hide, to see if that has any game effect at all.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jul 15, 2007)

In the original stats, the marsh dragon had a higher intelligence than the white dragon.


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

Comparing it to other 1E dragons....

Intelligence ranges from comparble to a black to comparble with a gold.  Its Int ranged from 8-18.  Perhaps we should settle on a middle ground, say 13 (High), which would have placed it on par with a brass or copper dragon?

Sizewise, it matches the white just fine.  AC also matches the white.

Comparing 1E damage, its claws are weaker than even the white, but its bite is on par with a blue.   So to equate this to Str, somewhere between the two?   In 3.5, the white and blue are usually only 2 points apart, so we could place it squarely between them at each age category.

Using the conversion guidelines, its speed would be 20 ft, fly 50 ft., swim 30 ft. at the assumed juvenile category.  This is awfully slow, even by dragon standards, though.


----------



## freyar (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Comparing it to other 1E dragons....
> 
> Intelligence ranges from comparble to a black to comparble with a gold.  Its Int ranged from 8-18.  Perhaps we should settle on a middle ground, say 13 (High), which would have placed it on par with a brass or copper dragon?




Sounds reasonable.  Size and AC matching white is also good.



> Comparing 1E damage, its claws are weaker than even the white, but its bite is on par with a blue.   So to equate this to Str, somewhere between the two?   In 3.5, the white and blue are usually only 2 points apart, so we could place it squarely between them at each age category.




Seems good to me.



> Using the conversion guidelines, its speed would be 20 ft, fly 50 ft., swim 30 ft. at the assumed juvenile category.  This is awfully slow, even by dragon standards, though.




Maybe make the speed equivalent to black or else a tiny bit slower?


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 18, 2007)

The smallest dragons, white and bronze, are the fastest fliers by great wyrm age (250 ft.) because they start out with a fly 150 ft. speed at wyrmling age. So if the marsh dragon matches the white in HD and size, it ought to match it in speed as well, which gives it a marginal advantage over the black.


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> The smallest dragons, white and bronze, are the fastest fliers by great wyrm age (250 ft.) because they start out with a fly 150 ft. speed at wyrmling age. So if the marsh dragon matches the white in HD and size, it ought to match it in speed as well, which gives it a marginal advantage over the black.




That'll work.  It does have "short stumpy, but powerful wings", so it could be a strong flier.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> That'll work.  It does have "short stumpy, but powerful wings", so it could be a strong flier.



Perhaps same speed as the white but a lower manoeuverability.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Perhaps same speed as the white but a lower manoeuverability.




Good suggestion.


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 19, 2007)

That's workable.

After looking at the warty amphi dragon, I read that its warts neither add nor subtract to its frightful presence, but they do exude an irritating acid. That's unique for that species though, so I won't necessarily recommended it for the marsh dragon. The warts also have no effect on the AC (unlike a brown dragon's leathery scales).


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> That's workable.
> 
> After looking at the warty amphi dragon, I read that its warts neither add nor subtract to its frightful presence, but they do exude an irritating acid. That's unique for that species though, so I won't necessarily recommended it for the marsh dragon. The warts also have no effect on the AC (unlike a brown dragon's leathery scales).




Thanks for checking.

I'll update Homebrews with what we discussed earlier.


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

Water subtype?

Should we give these fellas water breathing like the black?

Suggested SLAs:  doom (juvenile), contagion (adult), blight (old), transmute rock to mud (ancient),   repulsion (great wyrm)

Suggested Class Skills:  Hide, Swim, ??.


----------



## freyar (Jul 19, 2007)

Yes, Yes, Looks pretty good, Nothing else really stands out to me as a skill since Intimidate is already a class skill for dragons.


----------



## JiCi (Jul 19, 2007)

How about Survival ?


----------



## freyar (Jul 20, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> How about Survival ?




Certainly reasonable, but it doesn't really stand out as matching the fluff we have.  But we might as well.  

What else is left?


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> This ability from Monster Manual II may be useful for the marsh dragon:
> 
> Marsh Move (Ex): Swamplight lynxes take no movement penalties for moving in marshes or mud.
> 
> For SLAs: I second contagion.  Other possibilities: Melf's acid arrow, stinking cloud, cloudkill, and plague (from Player's Handbook II).




I somehow missed this earlier.  I definiely think we should use marsh move.

Do any of these SLAs fit better than what I posted above?


----------



## freyar (Jul 20, 2007)

Stinking cloud or cloudkill fit with the breath weapon a better than rock to mud, but it's not a big difference either way.


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 25, 2007)

_Stinking cloud_ is cool! Since even as a spell-like ability it can be made _permanent_, it makes a effective lair defense.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 25, 2007)

especially if the creature is immune to it.


----------



## freyar (Jul 25, 2007)

Well, I don't think we've got a subtype for this one; what if we leave off an elemental subtype and immunities and grant immunity to disease and poison?


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2007)

So...

No subtype?

water breathing like the black - yes?

Suggested SLAs: doom (juvenile), contagion (adult), stinking cloud (old), blight (ancient), repulsion or cloudkill (great wyrm)

Suggested Class Skills: Hide, Swim, Survial.


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2007)

This all looks good to me.  Cloudkill seems to fit the flavor of this one much more than repulsion, unless we think it's too similar to stinking cloud.


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2007)

Update in Homebrews.

Let's revisit this:

Spit (Ex): Once per day, a marsh dragon can spit at one creature as a ranged touch attack. A successful spit attack deals 1d6 points of acid damage (Fort/Ref save DCx for half ?) and infects the target with marsh fever (no save because the spit is highly infectious).

How about acid damage equal to the normal damage dealt by the breath weapon?   Do we want to stick with a save for half, despite the ranged touch attack which normally prevents a saving throw?


----------



## freyar (Aug 2, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about acid damage equal to the normal damage dealt by the breath weapon?   Do we want to stick with a save for half, despite the ranged touch attack which normally prevents a saving throw?




Let's get rid of the save for half.  Breath weapon damage for the spit acid is probably ok, since it can only do this once a day.


----------



## freyar (Aug 6, 2007)

You know, I've just been reading PH2, and maybe we should put in a sidebar that _plague_ can substitute as an SLA if you use PH2.  It really fits the flavor of this thing.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Aug 6, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> You know, I've just been reading PH2, and maybe we should put in a sidebar that _plague_ can substitute as an SLA if you use PH2.  It really fits the flavor of this thing.




That's why I suggested it.


----------



## freyar (Aug 6, 2007)

Well, excellent choice.   I was way too worried about keeping core (how was I to know I'd get PH2 so soon? ).  I do think a sidebar is better than as a regular SLA, though.


----------



## Shade (Aug 22, 2007)

I'll add the sidebar on _plague_.


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2007)

Updated. 

Do we need anything other than flavor text?


----------



## Mortis (Aug 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated.
> 
> Do we need anything other than flavor text?



I don't think so.

I know it's incredibly lazy of me, but when you update (any conversion) in homebrews could you make it a link?

Pretty please 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2007)

I added flavor text to Homebrews.   How's it look?


----------



## freyar (Aug 24, 2007)

I'd say that this one looks pretty much done.  What's next?


----------



## Shade (Aug 24, 2007)

I believe the jade and moonstone are the only two in the current requests pile.   Any preference?


----------



## JiCi (Aug 25, 2007)

*raises hand*

I say Moonstone...


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 26, 2007)

Moonstone too. Isn't it one of those glittery dragons?


----------



## Shade (Aug 27, 2007)

Dragon, Neutral, Moonstone
Climate/Terrain:  Sylvan forest, Ethereal plane, dreamscape
Frequency:  Very rare
Organization:  Solitary
Diet:  Special
Intelligence:  Exceptional (15-16)
Treasure:  Se below
Alignment: Neutral
# Appearaing: 1
AC: -1 (base)
Movement:  9, Fl 27 (C)
Hit Dice: 10 (base)
# Attacks:  3 + special
Damage/Attack:  1d6+1/1d6+1/2d12
SA:  Breath weapon, spells, special
SD:  Spells, special
Magic Resistance:  See below
Size:  H to G (18' base length)
Morale:  Fanatic (17-18)
XP Value:  See below

The elusive moonstone dragon, largest of the neutral dragons, rarely appears outside the realms of Faerie or of dreams.  Its scales shimmer a pale silver with a hint of blue in the moonlight.  It cares little for human affairs.

A moonstone dragon speaks its own language as well as that of sylvan faeries: sprites, pixies, petty faeries, and so on.  In dreams it speaks the language of the dreamer.

Combat:  If force to fight, the dragon uses enchantment/charm and illusion spells, alteration spells of dim light and shadow, and spells of dreams and dreaming.  Their priest spell spheres are all, healing, necromancy (good only) and divination.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities:  A moonstone dragon breathes a billow of light motes, in a cloud 30 feet long, 30 feet wide, and 20 feet tall.  All magical spell and potion effects in the cloud end, save those required for the life of creatures in the area (e.g. under water, a water breathing spell affecting air-breathers is not ended).  Thsoe who fail to save vs. breath weapon sleep for 2d4 turns, even if normally immune to sleep.  On waking, affected creatures have only fleeting memories of the dragon.

Instead of a fear aura, the moonstone dragon projects awe (save vs. spell at a +4 bonus).  An affected creatures stands quietly, taking no action until the dragon has departed, and has no clear memory of the encounter.  A moonstone dragon's attacks inflict normal damage on any creature, in or out of phase, overcoming any immunities to damage of less than artifact-level power.

Moonstone dragons are especially vulnerable to elemental attacks (air, earth, fire, water), having a -1 penalty to saving throws, and taking an additional 1 point per die of damage from these.  Bright light is painful to them--bright daylight inflicts 1d6 points of damage per round; intense flashes of light inflict 2d6 per spell level (a sunburst effect from a wand of illumination causes 6d6 damage).  A moonstone dragon reduced to 0 hit points by this means fades to the Ethereal Plane and cannot return until fully restored, regaining light-based damage at the rate of 1 hit point per day.

Habitat/Society:  Little is known of moonstone dragons, but they may spend much of their time in the Etheral Plane, or perhaps in lunar regions.  Their existence is connected somehow with faerie settings; some guard these lands.  In the most remote woodlands, persons attending the celebrations of a faerie court chance encounter with one.  The dragons usually shun the material world, but may try to influence it indirectly through agents.

Humans have encountered moonstone dragons in their dreams.  Apparently, these creatures can enter a dreamscape at will.  There, they speak the dreamer's language, and may offer guidance or advice on matters concerning faeries, shadow, lunar matters, healing, and the like. 

Their hoards are reputed to lie in faerie mounds or in secret woodland caverns.  These have no copper or gold, but an equal value of silver or platinum pieces.  Small beads of pure mithral are found instead of gems.

Ecology:  Moonstone dragons are thought to subsist on moonbeams and faerie nectar.  They are not carnivorous, nor do they often kill.  Among the legends of moonstone dragons are the following:  Their tears are drops of mithral, from which the elves fashion chain mail; when one dies, it vanishes in a shower of moonbeams; when one dies well, its heart turns into a lump of purest adamantite.  Further, it is said, if the dragon slays a creature unjustly, it turns into a pillar of sand, and its spirit is utterly destroyed.

Rather than type out the whole table, here's how things range...

Body Length 2-6 (wyrmling) to 69-73 (great wyrm).
Tail Length 1-5 (wyrmling) to 63-66 (great wyrm).
AC 6 (wyrmling) to -5 (great wyrm).
Breath weapon 1d4+2 (plus 1d4+1 per age category).
Wizard/Priest spells:  -/1 (wyrmling) to 4 4 3 3 2 2/4 4 3 3 2 2 1 (great wyrm).
MR:  15% at juvenile +5% per age category thereafter.
Treasure type:  H, Ix4, R, U (great wyrm)



Source:  MCA4.


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## RavinRay (Aug 28, 2007)

Ok, I've got some possible conversions of the abilities. My comments are underlined.


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> A moonstone dragon speaks its own language as well as that of sylvan faeries: sprites, pixies, petty faeries, and so on.  In dreams it speaks the language of the dreamer.



Moonstone dragons speak Draconic, Sylvan, and can speak the language of dream recipients (see below).


> Instead of a fear aura, the moonstone dragon projects awe (save vs. spell at a +4 bonus).  An affected creatures stands quietly, taking no action until the dragon has departed, and has no clear memory of the encounter.



*Awesome Aura (Su):* Moonstone dragons do not have a fear aura as do most other dragons. Instead, creatures with HD less than the dragon caught in the aura that fail their Will saves are fascinated while the dragon is present. After the dragon departs, they lose all memory of the encounter.


> Moonstone dragons are especially vulnerable to elemental attacks (air, earth, fire, water), having a -1 penalty to saving throws, and taking an additional 1 point per die of damage from these.  Bright light is painful to them--bright daylight inflicts 1d6 points of damage per round; intense flashes of light inflict 2d6 per spell level (a sunburst effect from a wand of illumination causes 6d6 damage).  A moonstone dragon reduced to 0 hit points by this means fades to the Ethereal Plane and cannot return until fully restored, regaining light-based damage at the rate of 1 hit point per day.



*Elemental Weakness (Ex):* Moonstone dragons suffer a -1 penalty to saving throws against elemental effects (such as spells with the air, earth, fire, or water descriptor).
*Light Vulnerability (Ex):* A moonstone dragon suffers 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure to daylight, whether natural or caused by spells such as _daylight_. It is treated as an undead for the purpose of the _sunburst_ spell. The spell's description says it already deals 6d6 points of damage to other creature types, so maybe this is necessary. A moonstone dragon reduced to  0 HP is automatically banished to the Ethereal Plane (as the _dismissal_ spell)


> Humans have encountered moonstone dragons in their dreams.  Apparently, these creatures can enter a dreamscape at will.  There, they speak the dreamer's language, and may offer guidance or advice on matters concerning faeries, shadow, lunar matters, healing, and the like.



*Dream (Su):* As the spell, except that a moonstone dragon can only send itself to the recipient's dream at well as a standard action. Should we limit this to humanoid recepients?
*Planar Travel (Su):* A moonstone dragon can _plane shift_ between the Ethereal Plane and the Material Plane or the Plane of Faerie (if it exists in your cosmology) as a standard action, though it takes care to avoid places exposed to direct sunlight.


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2007)

Well, I'd be all for opening _dream_ up to all creature types ('cause why would a dragon be limited to humanoids?); I guess it's a matter of interpreting the fluff.  Does it mean we only know what humans think or that only humans meet the dragons in dreams?


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## Shade (Aug 29, 2007)

I'm fine with opening it to other creature types.


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## freyar (Aug 30, 2007)

Regarding the light vulnerability, I wonder if perhaps the original text isn't referring to the same _sunburst_ spell when it talks about the damage from the "sunburst effect" of a want of illumination.  Why don't we just say that it takes 50% more damage from spells with the "light" descriptor to put this more in line wth the other energy vulnerabilities?

Ok, here's a try on the breath weapon (stuff I'm unsure about will be underlined, like RavinRay did):

*Breath Weapon (Su):* The breath weapon of a moonstone dragon is a cone of billowing motes of light.  All magical effects within the cone are dispelled (automatically, or should we treat this as _dispel_ or _greater dispel_ at the dragon's CL or something?) (permanent effects, such as magic weapons or other magic items are suppressed for X rounds), except for magic effects needed for the immediate survival of the targeted creature (for example, _water breathing_ for an air-breathing creature under water).  In addition, all creatures within the cone must make a Fort save or sleep for 1 hour.

Whaddya think?


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## Mortis (Aug 30, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> (automatically, or should we treat this as _dispel_ or _greater dispel_ at the dragon's CL or something?)



I would suggest the _greater dispel_ option.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Sep 5, 2007)

I'll try to Homebrews this one soon.


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2007)

Before I start the Homebrews, we'll need to figure out the Hit Dice, ability score, breath weapon, and movement progressions.

Comparing to other 2e dragons, it looks like its HD range falls between the jacinth and white dragons.  Since we placed the jacinth at the 3-36 progression, same as the white, I suppose we can do the same here, eh?

The breath weapon progression matches that of the amber, which we gave the 1d8/age category progression.  Any objections?

Its size progression also matches the amber, which we have at T/S/M/L/L/L/H/H/H/H/G/G.  Any problems here?

For ability scores, its Int matches the amber again, as well as the 2e bronze, silver, and red.   We had the amber follow the same physical progression as the white, and the mental progression is almost identical to the green.   Thoughts?


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## Mortis (Sep 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Before I start the Homebrews, we'll need to figure out the Hit Dice, ability score, breath weapon, and movement progressions.



It may help   



> Comparing to other 2e dragons, it looks like its HD range falls between the jacinth and white dragons.  Since we placed the jacinth at the 3-36 progression, same as the white, I suppose we can do the same here, eh?



I don't see why not.



> The breath weapon progression matches that of the amber, which we gave the 1d8/age category progression.  Any objections?



Not by me



> Its size progression also matches the amber, which we have at T/S/M/L/L/L/H/H/H/H/G/G.  Any problems here?



I shouldn't think so.



> For ability scores, its Int matches the amber again, as well as the 2e bronze, silver, and red.   We had the amber follow the same physical progression as the white, and the mental progression is almost identical to the green.   Thoughts?



Same as amber except for Wis and Cha. Maybe lower Wis by 2 points and increase Cha by 2?

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Sep 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Comparing to other 2e dragons, it looks like its HD range falls between the jacinth and white dragons.  Since we placed the jacinth at the 3-36 progression, same as the white, I suppose we can do the same here, eh?
> 
> The breath weapon progression matches that of the amber, which we gave the 1d8/age category progression.  Any objections?
> 
> Its size progression also matches the amber, which we have at T/S/M/L/L/L/H/H/H/H/G/G.  Any problems here?



That all sounds good.



> For ability scores, its Int matches the amber again, as well as the 2e bronze, silver, and red.   We had the amber follow the same physical progression as the white, and the mental progression is almost identical to the green.   Thoughts?




The physical progression being the same as white sounds good again, since the moonstone should probably be a low-power dragon physically.  As far as the mental scores, I'd go with the red progression, just because I see the moonstone as a bit more "mental" than the amber, but the green progression works for me, too.

Edit: Or what Mortis said, either way.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.   Disregard the "Moonstone Dragons by Age" table for now, as it is just a direct copy from another dragon.

Things to consider:

Subtype?

Class skills.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2007)

Hmmm, can't really think of an appropriate subtype other than "extraplanar."

For class skills, I think Bluff might fit.  Maybe Spellcraft.  Not quite sure what else.


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2007)

Starting this thread again:

Let's change the breath weapon to read "are dispelled as by _greater dispel magic_ at the dragon's caster level..."

Ok, for class skills, Bluff, Spellcraft, and Sense Motive?


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Starting this thread again:
> 
> Let's change the breath weapon to read "are dispelled as by _greater dispel magic_ at the dragon's caster level..."
> 
> Ok, for class skills, Bluff, Spellcraft, and Sense Motive?




Agreed, except for Sense Motive, which is already a class skill for dragons.


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## freyar (Sep 20, 2007)

Darn it, I never remember which is which!  It doesn't help that I've been working up abilities for dragon shaman with alternate totem dragons, since the class skills for dragon shaman are not really aligned with dragon class skills.

How about appraise or decipher script?


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## Mortis (Sep 20, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> How about appraise or decipher script?



Appraise - just so it knows to the last shekel how much its hoard is worth 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

Appraise will do.  

It still shocks me that Appraise isn't always a class skill for dragons.


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## freyar (Sep 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Appraise will do.
> 
> It still shocks me that Appraise isn't always a class skill for dragons.




Also amazing is the fact that Escape Artist is.


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## JiCi (Sep 20, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Also amazing is the fact that Escape Artist is.



Well, it gets them out of binds and nets.


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## Mortis (Sep 21, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> Well, it gets them out of binds and nets.



With most dragon's Strength score they are probably able to just burst out of most nets etc. 

I suppose chains may be more of a problem though.  :\ 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.


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## Mortis (Sep 24, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated in Homebrews.



What's left?

Is the "Moonstone Dragons by Age" table still a copy of the other dragon?

There's also an errant comma at the end of the movement entry for the wyrmling.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> What's left?
> 
> Is the "Moonstone Dragons by Age" table still a copy of the other dragon?
> 
> There's also an errant comma at the end of the movement entry for the wyrmling.




The comma _is _ an ability!    

I believe we still need to tackle spellcasting, spell-like abilities, and at what levels the various special abilities we've defined are gained.


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## Winding Road (Sep 25, 2007)

Since the moonstone dragon is associated with the plane of Faerie, maybe _Tasha's hideous laughter_ at juvenile and _Otto's irresistable dance_ at old would be appropriate. Along those lines, _temporal stasis_ at great wyrm seems to fit too.

For their spells, the original entry mentions they can cast healing spells, so access to the Healing domain seems obvious. It also specifies divination as a specialty, so maybe the Knowledge domain as well?


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2007)

Excellent suggestions.   Any others?


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2007)

Maybe give it CLW and/or some divination spell as SLAs.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2007)

Here's what I've got so far.  I bumped Otto's to ancient, since it's a high-level spell.

*Spell-Like Abilities:* 3/day—x (adult or older), Tasha's hideous laughter (juvenile or older), x (old or older); 1/day—Otto's irresistable dance (ancient or older), temporal stasis (great wyrm).

Hmmm...

Maybe deep slumber at adult?  False vision at old?


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## RavinRay (Oct 2, 2007)

_False vision_—goes well with its knack for illusion spells. _Deep slumber_ sounds good too.


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2007)

I like what you've got for the SLAs, too, Shade.  And I agree with false vision and deep slumber.


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2007)

Great!  Updated in Homebrews.

At what age categories should it gain the dream and planar travel abilities?


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2007)

The gem dragons get planar travel at wyrmling, so let's do planar travel at wyrmling.  Maybe young adult or adult for dream?


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> The gem dragons get planar travel at wyrmling, so let's do planar travel at wyrmling.  Maybe young adult or adult for dream?




Good catch.  Anyone else have a preference for when it obtains dream?


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## Mortis (Oct 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Anyone else have a preference for when it obtains dream?



I slightly favour Adult over Young Adult but frankly either will do.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2007)

I'll go with Adult.  

Other than the italicized description, how's it looking in Homebrews  now?


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## freyar (Oct 10, 2007)

Didn't go through the table carefully, but it looks pretty good.  Two typos:

Said "at well" instead of "at will" in the Dream description.

Kept all the text about 6d6 damage to various creature types for the vulnerability to the sunburst spell.


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

I fixed those and cleaned up some of the other text.


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## freyar (Oct 10, 2007)

Looking pretty good...


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

Added italicized description.  Does it look complete?


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## Mortis (Oct 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Added italicized description.  Does it look complete?



Unless I've missed something its missing caster levels and we still have that errant comma in the wyrmling movement entry 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2007)

And that's why I don't just assume we're done on my own.    

The errant comma is now (finally) removed.

For spellcasting, comparing to other 2e dragons, it achieves the same wizard spellcasting as a silver, but eclipses the other dragons with priest spellcasting.  In fact, it begins gaining priest spells at wyrmling, whereas the silver doesn't gain spells until young adult.



			
				MCA4 said:
			
		

> Combat: If force to fight, the dragon uses enchantment/charm and illusion spells, alteration spells of dim light and shadow, and spells of dreams and dreaming. Their priest spell spheres are all, healing, necromancy (good only) and divination.






			
				Winding Road said:
			
		

> For their spells, the original entry mentions they can cast healing spells, so access to the Healing domain seems obvious. It also specifies divination as a specialty, so maybe the Knowledge domain as well?


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For spellcasting, comparing to other 2e dragons, it achieves the same wizard spellcasting as a silver, but eclipses the other dragons with priest spellcasting.  In fact, it begins gaining priest spells at wyrmling, whereas the silver doesn't gain spells until young adult.




For simplicity, why don't we give it the spellcasting progression of the gold (which tops out at CL19 like silver but starts earlier) and let it cast cleric and Healing & Knowledge domain spells as arcane spells?


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> For simplicity, why don't we give it the spellcasting progression of the gold (which tops out at CL19 like silver but starts earlier) and let it cast cleric and Healing & Knowledge domain spells as arcane spells?




That sounds doable.  Any objections?


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## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> That sounds doable.  Any objections?



Not by me.

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2007)

So just add the CL, and this one's done, I guess.  Who's up next?


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

I'll update it shortly.

The jade's up next.  It's the last one in the current requests queue.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Updated Homebrews . 

I'll get the jade dragon going soon.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

*Dragon, Neutral, Jade*
Climate/Terrain:  Temperate oriental forests
Freq:  Very rare
Org:  Solitary or clan
Activity Cycle:  Any
Diet:  Omnivore
Int:  Genius (17-18)
Treasure:  See below
Alignment:  Neutral
# App:  1d3
AC: 0 (base)
Movement:  9, fl 24 (B)
HD:  7 (base)
THAC0:  13 (base)
# Att:  3 plus special 
Dmg/Att:  1d6 (x2)/5d4
SA:  Breath weapon, spells, special
SD:  Spells, special
MR:  See below
Size:  H-G (18' base length)
Morale:  Fanatic (17-18)
XP:  See below

The jade dragon is the Oriental cousin to the emerald dragon of the western world.  This dragon is usually considered mythical by humans and is sought by only a few adventurous thrill seekers.  Slightly more powerful than its western cousin, this creature looks the same as other Oriental dragons, except that it has wings with which to fly.  The hide of a jade dragon is made up of several different shades of green, swirled about in a random pattern.

Jade dragons speak their own language, and they can communicate telepathically with any other creature having that ability, as well as creatures with Intelligences of 18 or higher.

Combat:  Jade dragons use their breath weapons and magical abilities to defend themselves if possible, but they can also employ two claw attacks and a bite if forced into melee.  Although they are smaller and weaker than their more common relatives, they enjoy excellent spellcasting abilities, possessing both wizard and priest spells.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities:  A jade dragon is able to breathe a powerful sonic wail.  All those within a 90-foot radius suffer damage and must successfully save vs. breath weapon or be deafened for 1d6 x 10 rounds.  Even if the save is successful, the victim is deafened for 2d6 rounds.  In addition, all victims must make a successful system shock check in order to avoid being knocked unconscious for 5d4 rounds.

Using riddling talk and personal charm, jade dragons can entrance those who are not involved in combat or otherwise distracted.  Anyone within 90 feet who listens to a jade has a 10% cumulative chance per round to become affected as by a suggestion spell.  A successful save vs. spell indicates that the character can resist the charm for at least six rounds, after which there's a cumulative 5% chance to be charmed.  Those who successfully save twice can't be charmed by that dragon.

Due to its relatively small size, the fear aura of a neutral dragon allows a +4 bonus to opponents' saving throws.  Also, neutrals cannot polymorph themselves unless they carry the spell of the same name.  However, they do have the innate ability to blink six times per day (as a 10th-level caster).

Habitat/Society:  Jade dragons make their lairs in dense forests, as they are avid collectors of rare woods.  Like other neutral dragons, they are extremely reclusive creatures, preferring remote lairs, and they aren't very hospitable to unexpected visitors.  They love treasure, especially jade, and will bargain for precious and semiprecious stones.

Ecology:  Jades live entirely on forest vegetation and animal life, and will not eat humans.  No jade dragon hide has ever been sold, so its value is unknown.  The few jade dragons that have ever been seen were reported to be exquisitely beautiful, and there are many who would pay great sums to acquire such a hide.

Body length:  wyrmling (2-5) to great wyrm (56-60)
Tail length:  wyrmling (1-4) to great wyrm (45-48)
Breath weapon:  1d6+1/age category
Wizard/Priest spells at great wyrm:  3 3 3 3 3 3 2/2 2 2 2 2
MR:  5% per age category beginning at juvenile

Source:  MCA1.


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2007)

I'll just start with the breath weapon by saying that it's clearly sonic and asking if we want to do the deaf and unconscious bit at all age categories (or start at certain age).


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

Here's how it compares to the 2e Emerald Dragon...

Its AC is 2 worse
Its Int is 2 better
Its land speed is the same
Its fly speed is slower, but one manueverability class better
Its magic resistance is 10% worse
Its spellcasting is better
Its breath weapon deals different damage (emerald was 2d4+1/age category)
It is smaller in both body length and tail length
Its claws are weaker, but its bite is more powerful


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here's how it compares to the 2e Emerald Dragon...
> 
> Its AC is 2 worse
> Its Int is 2 better
> ...




Ok, then, in comparison to the 3e emerald, let's make:

Its AC one progression worse (are there natural armor progressions?)
Its Int progression one step better
Same land speed
Fly speed one progression worse, but bump up the manueverability
SR progression one step worse, I guess
Use a better CL progression than the Emerald's manifester level progression (1 step?)
Size progression 1 step less
Probably the size progression will fix the claw attacks, but we can give it a "powerful bite" ability and bump the bite damage up 2 sizes or something.


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## dhaga (Oct 22, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'll just start with the breath weapon by saying that it's clearly sonic and asking if we want to do the deaf and unconscious bit at all age categories (or start at certain age).




I think it should cause deafness and loss of consciousness at all ages, with the length of time increasing as it gets older.  Should a bit of sonic damage be added, as well?


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.  (whew!)


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Added to Homebrews.  (whew!)




Hehe, I'm sure you'll be thrilled to know that some of the rows in the table aren't aligned properly and that I think you have the size categories off by one in the advancement line.  

Taking a shot at the breath weapon (I guess the damage and DC in the table look ok):

Breath Weapon (Su): The jade dragon's breath weapon is a powerful cone of sonic energy.  Anyone in the cone of the breath who does not make a successful Reflex save versus damage must also make a Fortitude save (at the same DC) or be deafened for 3 rounds per age category of the dragon and rendered unconscious for 1 round per age category of the dragon.

How's that seem?


----------



## dhaga (Nov 1, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon (Su): The jade dragon's breath weapon is a powerful cone of sonic energy.  Anyone in the cone of the breath who does not make a successful Reflex save versus damage must also make a Fortitude save (at the same DC) or be deafened for 3 rounds per age category of the dragon and rendered unconscious for 1 round per age category of the dragon.
> 
> How's that seem?




Seems good


----------



## Shade (Nov 1, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hehe, I'm sure you'll be thrilled to know that some of the rows in the table aren't aligned properly and that I think you have the size categories off by one in the advancement line.




<faints>



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Taking a shot at the breath weapon (I guess the damage and DC in the table look ok):
> 
> Breath Weapon (Su): The jade dragon's breath weapon is a powerful cone of sonic energy.  Anyone in the cone of the breath who does not make a successful Reflex save versus damage must also make a Fortitude save (at the same DC) or be deafened for 3 rounds per age category of the dragon and rendered unconscious for 1 round per age category of the dragon.
> 
> How's that seem?




<recovers>

That seems good.



> Jade dragons speak their own language, and they can communicate telepathically with any other creature having that ability, as well as creatures with Intelligences of 18 or higher.




Telepathy 100 ft. or x ft./age category?


----------



## freyar (Nov 5, 2007)

Let's keep it simple and go with 100ft.


----------



## RavinRay (Nov 6, 2007)

The Fortitude save for unconsciousness and deafness works. As for the _charm_ effect, since the dragon has to talk, it effectively has a verbal component and won't work in a silenced area.


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## dhaga (Nov 6, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> The Fortitude save for unconsciousness and deafness works. As for the _charm_ effect, since the dragon has to talk, it effectively has a verbal component and won't work in a silenced area.




Is it possible for it to use its telepathic ability to "speak" to deafened opponents, for purposes of Charming them?


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## freyar (Nov 6, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Is it possible for it to use its telepathic ability to "speak" to deafened opponents, for purposes of Charming them?




I think that's something we need to decide.  How about this (we can leave in or take out the underlined bit depending on telepathy)?

*Beguile (Sp):* Using its riddling ways, a jade dragon can enchant anyone within 90 ft (or Xft/age category?) who is not involved in combat or otherwise distracted.  Anyone who can hear the jade dragon speak or can "hear" it due to its telepathy ability must make a Will save or be subject to a _suggestion_ by the dragon (at its caster level).  A creature that saves against a jade dragon's beguile ability is immune to that dragon's beguile ability for 24 hours.  The save DC is Charisma based.

Should the dragon only get this at a certain age, also?


----------



## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

We can mine this for inspiration,from the cataboligne updated in the recent Expedition to Greyhawk:

Captivating Voice (Su): A cataboligne's voice sounds like tht of a human woman. When it speaks, one designated humanoid, fey, or giant within 30 feet must succeed on a DC 22 Will save or become captivated and functions as if affected by the spell charm monster, although it remains charmed only until the demon's next action. If the cataboligne continues to speak to that victim, the effect persists (no save), but if the demon stops speaking or speaks to a different target, the victim recovers immediately from the effect. Captivating voice is a sonic, mind-affecting, language-dependent charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same cataboligne's speech for 24 hours. The cataboligne can use its captivating voice as a free action, but can target only one creature per round. The save DC for this ability is Charisma-based.

A captivated victim walks toward the cataboligne, taking the most direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the like), that creature gets a second saving throw. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. (Thus, a fighter cannot run away or attack but takes no defensive penalties.) A victim within 5 feet of the cataboligne stands there and offers no resistance to the monster's attacks. A bard's countersong ability allows the captivated creature to attempt a new Will save.


----------



## RavinRay (Nov 7, 2007)

Since the jade dragon is an Oriental dragon, we could mine the lung dragons for inspiration as well. _Blink_ is reminiscent of lung dragon's _plane shift_ ability, and telepathy to detect thoughts, for example.

The beguile ability could be acquired the same age as frightful presence, since both rely on Will saves.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Since the jade dragon is an Oriental dragon, we could mine the lung dragons for inspiration as well. _Blink_ is reminiscent of lung dragon's _plane shift_ ability, and telepathy to detect thoughts, for example.




So these would be for the spell-like abilities list, in addition to the other powers?   Sounds good if so.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> The beguile ability could be acquired the same age as frightful presence, since both rely on Will saves.




Good call.


----------



## freyar (Nov 7, 2007)

RavinRay's suggestions are good.  Maybe also a sidebar that jade dragons are lung dragons if you use Oriental Adventures?


----------



## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> RavinRay's suggestions are good.  Maybe also a sidebar that jade dragons are lung dragons if you use Oriental Adventures?




That'll work.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Beguile (Sp): Using its riddling ways, a jade dragon can enchant anyone within 90 ft (or Xft/age category?) who is not involved in combat or otherwise distracted. Anyone who can hear the jade dragon speak or can "hear" it due to its telepathy ability must make a Will save or be subject to a suggestion by the dragon (at its caster level). A creature that saves against a jade dragon's beguile ability is immune to that dragon's beguile ability for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma based.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We can mine this for inspiration,from the cataboligne updated in the recent Expedition to Greyhawk:
> 
> Captivating Voice (Su): A cataboligne's voice sounds like tht of a human woman. When it speaks, one designated humanoid, fey, or giant within 30 feet must succeed on a DC 22 Will save or become captivated and functions as if affected by the spell charm monster, although it remains charmed only until the demon's next action. If the cataboligne continues to speak to that victim, the effect persists (no save), but if the demon stops speaking or speaks to a different target, the victim recovers immediately from the effect. Captivating voice is a sonic, mind-affecting, language-dependent charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same cataboligne's speech for 24 hours. The cataboligne can use its captivating voice as a free action, but can target only one creature per round. The save DC for this ability is Charisma-based.
> 
> A captivated victim walks toward the cataboligne, taking the most direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the like), that creature gets a second saving throw. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. (Thus, a fighter cannot run away or attack but takes no defensive penalties.) A victim within 5 feet of the cataboligne stands there and offers no resistance to the monster's attacks. A bard's countersong ability allows the captivated creature to attempt a new Will save.


----------



## freyar (Nov 9, 2007)

These seem basically the same, once we convert the cataboligne's captivation to a suggestion.  I'm also fine with making it Su.


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

How's this revision?

Beguile (Su): A jade dragon often speaks in riddles. When it speaks (even via telepathy), all creatures within 10 feet per age category must succeed on a Will save or become susceptible to the dragon's whims and functions as if affected by the spell suggestion. Beguile is a sonic, mind-affecting, language-dependent compulsion effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same jade dragon's beguile ability for 24 hours. The cataboligne can use its captivating voice as a free action, but can target only one creature per round. The save DC for this ability is Charisma-based.

I changed the ranged of the jade dragon's telepathy to 10 feet x age category like the other neutral dragons.


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2007)

Looking good, but you might want to get that cataboligne out of there. 

Actually, if this can work by telepathy, should it really be a sonic effect?


----------



## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looking good, but you might want to get that cataboligne out of there.




Will do before finalizing it.  

Actually, if this can work by telepathy, should it really be a sonic effect?[/QUOTE]

Probably not, although I'm still not convinced that it should work through telepathy.

Anyone strongly for or against?


----------



## dhaga (Nov 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Probably not, although I'm still not convinced that it should work through telepathy.
> 
> Anyone strongly for or against?




I think it would be an interesting mechanic, if it worked through telepathy, but at the same time, it may make the ability too powerful.  I'll admit I'm on the fence on this one.  What do others think?


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## RavinRay (Nov 14, 2007)

If it's sonic (which might not be necessary because a mental voice doesn't sound sonic to me—pun intended) since it is language-dependent this places a balancing limit on the ability.


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

Just to get the thread moving again, let's remove the telepathy from the beguile ability. 

Class skills: Appraise, Bluff, and maybe Survival?


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

OK.

Updated Homebrews.

Let's figure out the spell-like abilities.

Suggested spell-like abilities upthread: plane shift ability, detect thoughts.

Here are the emerald's abilities...

Spell-Like Abilities: At will--legend lore; 3/day--fog cloud, improved invisibility, sculpt sound. (When using the Psionics Handbook, replace legend lore with the object reading psionic power, replace sculpt sound with the control sound psionic power, and replace improved invisibility with the augmented invisibility psionic power.) Caster level varies with age; save DC 10 + dragon's Charisma modifier + spell level.

Psionics (Sp): 3/day--nondetection, clairaudience/clairvoyance. Caster (or manifester) level varies by age; save DC 10 + dragon's Charisma modifier + spell (or power) level.

Attack/Defense Modes: id insinuation, psychic crush/thought shield, tower of iron will. An emerald dragon manifests powers, and gains additional attack and defense modes, as if it were a psion with Clairsentience as its primary discipline.


----------



## freyar (Nov 19, 2007)

Plane shift and detect thoughts sound good.  Sculpt sound also sounds like a must.  Any other good sonic spells for this one?


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Plane shift and detect thoughts sound good.  Sculpt sound also sounds like a must.  Any other good sonic spells for this one?




shatter, shout, sound burst, song of discord, sympathetic vibration


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## RavinRay (Nov 20, 2007)

So we have the 3e _plane shift_ instead of the 2e _blink_, and the arcane _sculpt sound_ for the psionic _control sound_. The former is an homage to gem dragons, and the latter makes it a bit more like the emerald dragon. Sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

We have the plane shift in addition to the blink ability given to all neutral dragons.


----------



## freyar (Nov 20, 2007)

Just looked up the sonic spells.  I like song of discord for the flavor of this one.  Any chance we could sneak wail of the banshee in also at great wyrm?


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Just looked up the sonic spells.  I like song of discord for the flavor of this one.  Any chance we could sneak wail of the banshee in also at great wyrm?




Well, it's not evil, but necromancy (death) seems a bit of a stretch, eh?


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

So...

detect thoughts (juvenile or older)  at will?

shatter (adult or older) 3/day?

sculpt sound (old or older) 3/day?

song of discord (ancient or older) 3/day?

plane shift (great wyrm) at will?


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## RavinRay (Nov 21, 2007)

About _plane shift_… it is Su for gem dragons but Sp for lung dragons. Since the jade dragon is an oriental relative of a gem dragon, which fits it better? And since it can already _blink_ to the Ethereal Plane, should we restrict the planes it can _shift_ to?

There's also _shout_ and _greater shout_ for sonic spells, BTW (the mountain landwyrm has the latter).


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well, it's not evil, but necromancy (death) seems a bit of a stretch, eh?



But I had a great name for it - Linnorm's lament 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> About _plane shift_… it is Su for gem dragons but Sp for lung dragons. Since the jade dragon is an oriental relative of a gem dragon, which fits it better? And since it can already _blink_ to the Ethereal Plane, should we restrict the planes it can _shift_ to?




Hmmm...the gem dragons are limited to the Inner Planes, while the lung dragons are limited to the Spirit World.  If we go the limiting route, I'd say both.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> There's also _shout_ and _greater shout_ for sonic spells, BTW (the mountain landwyrm has the latter).




I thought they may be redundant with its sonic damage breath weapon.  Thoughts?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> But I had a great name for it - Linnorm's lament




'tis a good name.  Maybe we can recycle it elsewhere.


----------



## RavinRay (Nov 27, 2007)

*Edit: Added OA options*

Hey, Shade, it's been just over a year since you started this thread—that's a milestone already, and we're still at it! 


> Jade Dragons and Oriental Adventures
> 
> If you are using Oriental Adventures in your campaign, jade dragons are considered lung dragons.



I can't help it, I really do want to make the jade dragon as oriental as possible, so here goes. In an OA campaign, a jade dragon can _plane shift_ to the Spirit World. It can cast wu jen spells, shaman spells, and spells from the x (shaman) domains as arcane spells (rather than sorcerer/wizard, cleric, and cleric domain spells respectively).


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Hey, Shade, it's been just over a year since you started this thread—that's a milestone already, and we're still at it!




Cool.    



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> I can't help it, I really do want to make the jade dragon as oriental as possible, so here goes. In an OA campaign, a jade dragon can _plane shift_ to the Spirit World. It can cast wu jen spells, shaman spells, and spells from the x (shaman) domains as arcane spells (rather than sorcerer/wizard, cleric, and cleric domain spells respectively).




Sounds excellent.   Suggestions for the shaman domains?


----------



## RavinRay (Nov 28, 2007)

I'll see which shaman domains feel like counterparts to cleric domains we'll assign to the jade dragon, that way it will still retain the feel.

I noticed that beguile has some effects in common with _enthrall_ .


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> I'll see which shaman domains feel like counterparts to cleric domains we'll assign to the jade dragon, that way it will still retain the feel.




Speaking of which, did we select cleric domains yet?



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> I noticed that beguile has some effects in common with _enthrall_ .




Interesting.  Yet another spell effect (like slow) that should have been in the condition summary.    

Perhaps we should just state that Beguile leaves the victims enthralled (as the spell)?



Backing up, is everyone OK with these SLAs and frequency of usage?

detect thoughts (juvenile or older) at will?

shatter (adult or older) 3/day?

sculpt sound (old or older) 3/day?

song of discord (ancient or older) 3/day?

plane shift (great wyrm) at will?


----------



## freyar (Nov 28, 2007)

SLAs look good, except maybe plane shift.  Gems get plane shift at wyrmling; when do lung dragons get it?

I think we should go with beguile as enthrall, too.  Maybe even replace Beguile with enthrall as an SLA (wyrmling, at will?).  Also, if we keep beguile separate, we should take out the telepathy option, since we wanted to make it a sonic effect.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> SLAs look good, except maybe plane shift.  Gems get plane shift at wyrmling; when do lung dragons get it?




Wyrmling as well.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I think we should go with beguile as enthrall, too.  Maybe even replace Beguile with enthrall as an SLA (wyrmling, at will?).  Also, if we keep beguile separate, we should take out the telepathy option, since we wanted to make it a sonic effect.




The benefit of making it a Su ability, rather than spell-like, is the DC will scale better as it ages.

How's this?

Beguile (Su): A jade dragon often speaks in riddles. When it speaks for one full round, all creatures within 10 feet per age category must succeed on a Will save or become enthralled (as the spell). Beguile is a sonic, mind-affecting, language-dependent charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same jade dragon's beguile ability for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## freyar (Nov 29, 2007)

So let's put plane shift at wyrmling.

Your beguile looks pretty good.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> So let's put plane shift at wyrmling.
> 
> Your beguile looks pretty good.




OK.  If we move plane shift to wyrmling, we'll need a new great wyrm SLA.   

Great shout as suggested upstream?   While it deals sonic damage like the breath weapon, it does have the added effect of stunning.  If we use it, 1/day or 3/day?


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2007)

What about something along the lines of mind-affecting spells?  Say demand 1/day.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> What about something along the lines of mind-affecting spells?  Say demand 1/day.




Oooh...I like that much better.


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## RavinRay (Nov 30, 2007)

A powerful 8th-level mind-affecting spell, no other dragon has it. Yeah, let's give it to the jade.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

So....

plane shift (wyrmling) at will?

detect thoughts (juvenile or older) at will?

shatter (adult or older) 3/day?

sculpt sound (old or older) 3/day?

song of discord (ancient or older) 3/day?

demand (great wyrm) 1/day?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 3, 2007)

I like all that 

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2007)

Looks good.


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

We still need domains (if any; the original text gives no hints to needing them).   I'll work on flavor text.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2007)

None of the domains really stand out on this one.  Maybe just leave them off?


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## RavinRay (Dec 3, 2007)

The 2e text says they can cast priest spells, so I suppose they ought to cast clerical and clerical domain spells in 3.5e too. Since they love forests and collect plants (and woodcraft I presume), I suggest Plant as one domain. They're also very reclusive, so either Protection or Trickery (more the latter) serves to keep others away from them or observing them. (In an _OA_ setting, the Wood shaman domain may be used in place of Plant, and the Trickery domain exists as well.)


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> The 2e text says they can cast priest spells, so I suppose they ought to cast clerical and clerical domain spells in 3.5e too. Since they love forests and collect plants (and woodcraft I presume), I suggest Plant as one domain. They're also very reclusive, so either Protection or Trickery (more the latter) serves to keep others away from them or observing them. (In an _OA_ setting, the Wood shaman domain may be used in place of Plant, and the Trickery domain exists as well.)




Perfect.


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Updated.

Any recommendation on the dragon's scent?  (Not the ability, but its aroma).

Anything else?


----------



## RavinRay (Dec 5, 2007)

Comparing the jade dragon to the emerald dragon…

CR: same.
Ability scores: same except for Int, resulting in +1 to its modifier. Slight edge.
Saves: same.
BAB/Attack bonus: slightly lower progression for grapple and attack because of the jade's smaller size at wyrmling.
Breath weapon: the jade's breath not only deafens but knocks unconscious targets. A definite advantage!
Frightful presence: lower.
AC: slightly faster progression.
Special Abilities: the emerald has 3 divination/clairsentience abilities, one sonic, and 2 that obfuscate, while the jade has 3 offensive sonic abilities, 2 mind-affecting, and can _blink_ apart from _plane shift_. In terms of offensive abilities it is more powerful.
Overall, it's just a tad more powerful than the emerald, because it's less potent frightful presence is more than compensated for by it more devastating breath weapon and more offensive spell-like abilities.

As for its scent… t'ien lung smell like cherry blossoms, gold dragons like saffron and incense, so this somewhat Oriental dragon should smell like, like… I can't think of any. Opium/poppy?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Any recommendation on the dragon's scent?  (Not the ability, but its aroma)



One/some/all of Chinese five spice (cinnamon, cassia buds, star anise and anise seed, ginger root, and cloves)?

I'd go for cinnamon and ginger.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

Sounds (er, smells) good.    

Updated.

All done?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> All done?



I'd say so... but I haven't had much to do with this conversion, so let the others decide.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Dec 5, 2007)

I think it looks done, too.


----------



## RavinRay (Dec 6, 2007)

Now I can understand why collectors want a jade dragon's hide, if it smells that yummy.  

BTW Shade, since I'm putting all the dragons' stats into a spreadsheet, what adjustment did you do for the weaker Frightful Presence DC of the neutral dragons? Did you include a fixed penalty to the 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier formula (in case I missed it)?


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Now I can understand why collectors want a jade dragon's hide, if it smells that yummy.




And very festive.    



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> BTW Shade, since I'm putting all the dragons' stats into a spreadsheet, what adjustment did you do for the weaker Frightful Presence DC of the neutral dragons? Did you include a fixed penalty to the 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier formula (in case I missed it)?




None.  I honestly can't remember if we decided to just leave it alone or simply forgot, but none of the neutral dragons have a penalty.

Should we revisit this?   I can always go back and edit them.


----------



## freyar (Dec 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> None.  I honestly can't remember if we decided to just leave it alone or simply forgot, but none of the neutral dragons have a penalty.
> 
> Should we revisit this?   I can always go back and edit them.




Is there a reason neutral dragons have a penalty?  Or is this just how things always were?  My inclination would be to omit the penalty, since gem dragons don't have it (though maybe that is some other classification I don't know).


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Is there a reason neutral dragons have a penalty?  Or is this just how things always were?  My inclination would be to omit the penalty, since gem dragons don't have it (though maybe that is some other classification I don't know).




It was from this passage:



> Due to its relatively small size, the fear aura of a neutral dragon allows a +4 bonus to opponent's saving throws.




Since size doesn't seem to matter anymore with frightful presence, I'd tend to agree with the omission of the penalty.


----------



## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

STONE DRAGON
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVE: 9"; 1" burrowing through rock; 6" burrowing through earth
HIT DICE: 7-9
% IN LAIR: 45%
TREASURE TYPE: H, Q (x2)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/5-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Missiles (boulder breath weapon), breath weapon, spell use, high intelligence
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Acute senses, savingthrow bonuses, low armor class, weapon breaking
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
SIZE: L (35' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 100%
Magic-use: 100%
Sleeping: 50%
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 10 HD: VIII/4,800 + 14 per hit points; 11-12 HD: IX/7,200 + 16 per hit point 

This solitary dragon inhabits rocky, deserted areas, and often makes its lair inside a cave with two or more exits. The stone dragon eats rocks for sustenance, with gems being considered delicacies.

They rarely interfere with the affairs of men, though when confronted they can prove very helpful or harmful. Stone dragons share the same general characteristics that all dragons do, but they lack wings. Instead, stone dragons can leap five times per day as if using the first-level magic-user spell jump.  

Stone dragons are gray in color, each looking very much like a clump of rocks. If located in rocky terrain, a stone dragon has a 55% chance of blending in with the rocks, effectively concealing itself. Sharp weapons do half damage and must save vs. crushing blow on contact with such creatures, breaking and doing no damage if they fail; missile weapons must also save or be destroyed. Blunt weapons do full damage and will not break. Stone dragons save vs. fire and acid at - 1, and take + 1 hp damage per die of damage done on
these attacks. Stone dragons save vs. cold at + 1, with damage being - 1 per die. Earth-based spells that normally have no saving throw do only half damage or have half the effect against a stone dragon; for example, animated rocks and conjured earth elementals only do half damage when they hit, and earthquake has a 1 in 16 chance of killing a stone dragon. Earthbased spells that do allow a saving throw do half or no damage to stone dragons, depending on the dragon's saving throw.  Flesh to stone and mud to rock (and their 
reverses) have no effect on stone dragons. 

The stone dragon has three breath weapons, each usable three times per day.  The first breath weapon shoots 5-10 large (3' diameter) rocks from its mouth. These rocks are waste products of the dragon's diet. These rocks are expelled at a rate of one per segment, so one rock may be targeted at any opponent (thus, up to 10 people can actually be targeted, assuming 10 rocks are available). The range for hitting targets is 2"/4"/6" for short/medium/long range. A target must be at least 1" away from the dragon to be fired upon. The rocks have a +2 bonus to hit, and each rock does 2-7 hp damage. Note that normal missile range "to hit" penalties still apply.

The second weapon available to the stone dragon is a gas cloud 5" wide, 6" long, and 3" deep which loses effectiveness after one round. This acts like a slow spell for as many rounds as the dragon has hit dice. A successful save vs. breath weapon means that the spell has no effect.  The stone dragon is immune to its own breath weapon, but it is not immune to a magic-user's slow spell.

The third breath weapon is also a gas cloud 5" wide, 6" long, and 3" deep that loses its effectiveness after one round.  Failure to save vs. breath weapon indicates that the victim has turned to stone. The effects of this are permanent, though the usual magical methods may be used to reverse the petrified victim's condition.

Stone dragons prefer gems over the more common types of treasure, and will readily trade other treasures for them, sometimes paying a price twice the item is worth.  

Upon reaching the fifth age category, a stone dragon receives the ability to cast stone shape once per day. At the seventh age category, he may cast it twice per day.  At the eighth age level, the stone dragon may cast a statue spell once every two days with no chance of system shock failure.

Additionally, all stone dragons receive the following spells, each gained at successive age categories starting from very young age: allies, shatter, passwall, transmute rock to mud, wall of stone, conjure earth elemental, stone tell, and earthquake.  Allies is a spell-like power that acts as a charm monster spell and takes one turn to cast. It affects only rock-based creatures (i.e., rock reptiles, xorn, umber hulks, earth elementals, etc.). The creature gets a saving throw to avoid the effects.  All other information on this spell is treated as the charm monster spell.


From Dragon #134 (1988).


----------



## RavinRay (Dec 11, 2007)

Quick impression:

It looks like it should have the earth subtype.
Damage reduction should be overcome by weapons that are both magical and bludgeoning.
Save penalties against fire and acid attacks, save bonuses against cold attacks.
Half-damage on failing saving throws, against effects with the earth descriptor, no damage on a successful save.
The rocky breath weapon reminds me of the amethyst lozenge of the amethyst dragon, and the cone of thorns of the arboreal dragon. It seems like the dragon can expel 1d6+4 rocks that deal 1d6+1 bludgeoning damage. The range is extremely short, and the dragon seems to use a swift action to target multiple creatures.
The slow breath weapon works like the copper's.
The petrification breath weapon is like the gorgon's.


----------



## freyar (Dec 11, 2007)

I think the range is a bit short on the rocks, actually.  It's also a bit similar to Gruaghlothor's breath weapon.

Need to work on the skin that breaks weapons.


----------



## RavinRay (Dec 11, 2007)

Come to think of it, those rocks may not have to be a breath weapon _per se_. Not all oral ejecta is a breath weapon; think of poison or acid spit or the aforementioned explosive gem of the amethyst dragon.

Obviously it has a burrow speed, but it can also burrow through solid rock like the li lung's tunneling ability.


----------



## freyar (Dec 11, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Come to think of it, those rocks may not have to be a breath weapon _per se_. Not all oral ejecta is a breath weapon; think of poison or acid spit or the aforementioned explosive gem of the amethyst dragon.
> 
> Obviously it has a burrow speed, but it can also burrow through solid rock like the li lung's tunneling ability.




Agreed with all that.  In fact, I'm not sure, maybe it would be better to give the stone dragon just 2 kinds of breath weapon, usable (one or the other) every 1d4 round and the stones as an Ex or Su ability 3x/day.

Care to post a revised tunneling ability?


----------



## RavinRay (Dec 12, 2007)

Here's the li lung's tunneling ability. I think the stone dragon can be given the same speed.

*Tunneling (Ex):* Li lungs can burrow through solid stone at a speed of 5 feet.


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

We can borrow that for our hammer golem conversion as well.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 13, 2007)

As I mentioned in the other thread

Do we need to clarify whether or not the tunnel remains or collapses behind the dragon?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## RavinRay (Dec 13, 2007)

Since it's solid rock, I don't think the tunnel would collapse. One of the _Dragonlance_ novels has the dwarves using enormous domesticated worms burrowing through solid rock, and these tunnels definitely last.

*Tunneling (Ex):* A stone dragon can burrow through solid stone at a speed of 5 feet, leaving behind an intact tunnel.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 13, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Since it's solid rock, I don't think the tunnel would collapse. One of the _Dragonlance_ novels has the dwarves using enormous domesticated worms burrowing through solid rock, and these tunnels definitely last.



I do agree with that sentiment - I think the 'official' creatures have tunnels that collapse to prevent pc's from using the tunnels as a shortcut etc. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Looking at the basics, they compare rather closely to a copper dragon for damage output, so we could model its physical ability scores off the copper.

HD puts it about on par with the copper as well.  Size is also comparable to copper.  Its AC is one better.

Int is comparable to a green, so we might model its physical ability scores off the green.

Land speed is comparable to a blue, bronze, copper, green, red, and silver.  All are 40 ft.   Burrow speeds for true dragons range from 20 ft. (for the blue) to 45 ft. (for the li lung).  Since burrowing is a primary tactic of the stone dragon, I'd recommend going toward the high end.


----------



## freyar (Dec 14, 2007)

You mean mental stats based on green (physical based on copper)?  Other than that, I like all your suggestions.  I'd go with the 45ft burrow speed, or maybe 40 (so it's the same as base land speed).


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Yep, I meant mental stats like the green and physical for the copper.


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.



> They rarely interfere with the affairs of men, though when confronted they can prove very helpful or harmful. Stone dragons share the same general characteristics that all dragons do, but they lack wings. Instead, stone dragons can leap five times per day as if using the first-level magic-user spell jump.




Jump grants a +10 enhancement bonus on Jump checks. The enhancement bonus increases to +20 at caster level 5th, and to +30 (the maximum) at caster level 9th. 

Rather than giving it Jump as a 5/day SLA, how about just giving it a racial bonus on Jump checks that improves at several age categories?



> Stone dragons are gray in color, each looking very much like a clump of rocks. If located in rocky terrain, a stone dragon has a 55% chance of blending in with the rocks, effectively concealing itself.




Racial bonus on Hide checks in rock terrain?   Fixed bonus or variable by age category?  Perhaps they become more rocklike as they age, granting bonus equal to age category?



> Sharp weapons do half damage and must save vs. crushing blow on contact with such creatures, breaking and doing no damage if they fail; missile weapons must also save or be destroyed. Blunt weapons do full damage and will not break.




Something like this?

Reflexive Sunder (Ex): The armor plates that cover a rukanyr shift and rub against each other in combat, creating a jarring sound like that of trees rubbing together in a high wind. Anyone who strikes a rukanyr with a slashing or piercing melee attack must make a Reflex save (DC 11) or the armor plates shift and crush the weapon, dealing 4d6+5 points of damage to the weapon and tearing it from the victim's grasp. The weapon lands at the attacker's feet if it is not broken by the damage. The save DC is Dexterity-based.



> Stone dragons save vs. fire and acid at - 1, and take + 1 hp damage per die of damage done on these attacks. Stone dragons save vs. cold at + 1, with damage being - 1 per die.




Rather than a save bonus/penalty and +1/-1 damage per die, how about vulnerability (+50% damage) to fire and acid and scaling resistance to cold?



> Earth-based spells that normally have no saving throw do only half damage or have half the effect against a stone dragon; for example, animated rocks and conjured earth elementals only do half damage when they hit, and earthquake has a 1 in 16 chance of killing a stone dragon. Earthbased spells that do allow a saving throw do half or no damage to stone dragons, depending on the dragon's saving throw. Flesh to stone and mud to rock (and their reverses) have no effect on stone dragons.




A modified form of evasion/mettle?



> Stone dragons prefer gems over the more common types of treasure, and will readily trade other treasures for them, sometimes paying a price twice the item is worth.




Treasure:  Standard coins; quadruple goods (gems); standard items?



> Upon reaching the fifth age category, a stone dragon receives the ability to cast stone shape once per day. At the seventh age category, he may cast it twice per day. At the eighth age level, the stone dragon may cast a statue spell once every two days with no chance of system shock failure.




Stone Shape (Sp):  A young adult stone dragon may use stone shape as a spell-like ability once per day.  Upon reaching mature adult, the stone dragon may use stone shape 2/day.

Statue can simply be a 1/day SLA at old category.



> Additionally, all stone dragons receive the following spells, each gained at successive age categories starting from very young age: allies, shatter, passwall, transmute rock to mud, wall of stone, conjure earth elemental, stone tell, and earthquake. Allies is a spell-like power that acts as a charm monster spell and takes one turn to cast. It affects only rock-based creatures (i.e., rock reptiles, xorn, umber hulks, earth elementals, etc.). The creature gets a saving throw to avoid the effects. All other information on this spell is treated as the charm monster spell.




It looks like that rather than having traditional spellcasting, stone dragons get a truckload of SLAs.  Rather than just assigning them at 1/age category beginning at very young, let's spread them out a bit more so earthquake arrives at great wyrm.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

Whew, that's a lot.  But I like all the suggestions.  I'll try to come back to this one in more details once I'm on vacation.


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## RavinRay (Dec 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Rather than giving it Jump as a 5/day SLA, how about just giving it a racial bonus on Jump checks that improves at several age categories?



I'd go this way as well.


> Racial bonus on Hide checks in rock terrain?   Fixed bonus or variable by age category?  Perhaps they become more rocklike as they age, granting bonus equal to age category?



For comparison purposes, a mountain landwyrm has a +4 racial bonus to Hide checks in mountainous terrain (+8 when immobile). What about the mountain wurm? Does it have a similar bonus that goes up with age?


> Reflexive Sunder (Ex): The armor plates that cover a rukanyr shift and rub against each other in combat… Anyone who strikes a rukanyr with a slashing or piercing melee attack must make a Reflex save (DC 11) or the armor plates shift and crush the weapon, dealing 4d6+5 points of damage to the weapon and tearing it from the victim's grasp… The save DC is Dexterity-based.



This sounds good.


> Rather than a save bonus/penalty and +1/-1 damage per die, how about vulnerability (+50% damage) to fire and acid and scaling resistance to cold?



I'm fine with the fire/acid vulnerability, undecided on cold.


> Stone Shape (Sp):  A young adult stone dragon may use stone shape as a spell-like ability once per day.  Upon reaching mature adult, the stone dragon may use stone shape 2/day.



There's another dragon with an SLA that just increases in use/day with age, can't recall which. So there is precedent. Plus, a brown dragon gets to summon an increasingly more powerful earth elemental with age, so this is also similar.


> It looks like that rather than having traditional spellcasting, stone dragons get a truckload of SLAs.  Rather than just assigning them at 1/age category beginning at very young, let's spread them out a bit more so earthquake arrives at great wyrm.



_Earthquake's_ definitely for great wyrms.
Are we still going to add tunneling at wyrmling?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> For comparison purposes, a mountain landwyrm has a +4 racial bonus to Hide checks in mountainous terrain (+8 when immobile). What about the mountain wurm? Does it have a similar bonus that goes up with age?




Nope, just a flat +8 racial bonus to Hide checks in their home environment.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> There's another dragon with an SLA that just increases in use/day with age, can't recall which. So there is precedent. Plus, a brown dragon gets to summon an increasingly more powerful earth elemental with age, so this is also similar.




I can't find it, but I recall another dragon with increase use/day as well.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Are we still going to add tunneling at wyrmling?




Absolutely!  Thanks for the reminder.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2008)

Updated.

For the Jump bonus, how about +5 at wyrmling and an additional +5 at every other age category thereafter?

Shall we stick with the static +8 bonus on Hide?

I'm not sure the reflexive sunder ability is a good fit for these guys.  How about something more like this?

Weaponbreaker (Su): Any piercing or slashing weapon that strikes a young adult or older stone dragon takes damage equivalent to the dragon's damage reduction.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2008)

Skill bonuses sound about right.

Weaponbreaker looks really good, actually.  Only question: allow the weapon a save to avoid damage?


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2008)

Hmmm...my gut reaction is no save.   Striking an ooze with the acid ability grants a save, but it is versus complete destruction.   I suppose hardness could apply?


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2008)

Ok, no save.  I'm not sure about hardness, since I don't want to strip this ability of its teeth.  If hardness applies, it wouldn't really affect anything until mature adult and bladed weapons until even later.  So let's either say no hardness or bump up the DR a bit.


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2008)

Let's just ditch hardness to keep the DR reasonable.


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## freyar (Jan 11, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Let's just ditch hardness to keep the DR reasonable.




Agreed, then.

Do we need to revisit the SLAs?  In particular, I think we might need to describe allies and summon earth elemental (both pretty easy):

Allies (Sp): This functions as the spell _charm monster_, except that it only works on rock-based creatures or creatures with the earth subtype (Will DC 10+ 1/2 HD +Cha bonus).  The stone dragon may use this ability 3 times per day (?).

Summon earth elemental (Sp): This functions as a _summon monster VI_ spell, except that the stone dragon may only summon earth elementals.  The stone dragon may use this ability once per day (?).

Do we need a CL progression?


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2008)

Updated.

I'm not sure we need spellcasting/caster level.  It has a boatload of SLAs, so it's almost like a planar dragon.   Thoughts?

Class skills:  Appraise, Hide, Survival?


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## RavinRay (Jan 15, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Summon earth elemental (Sp): This functions as a _summon monster VI_ spell, except that the stone dragon may only summon earth elementals.  The stone dragon may use this ability once per day (?).



Should it be able to summon a tougher elemental as it ages, like the brown dragon, and how a concordant dragon can summon a tougher rilmani as it ages?


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Class Skills: Appraise, Hide, Survival?



Sounds good. Appraise because it ought to be an expert with gems, Hide and Survival because it is a loner and apathetic.


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Should it be able to summon a tougher elemental as it ages, like the brown dragon, and how a concordant dragon can summon a tougher rilmani as it ages?




I like that idea.  What about this?

Summon earth elemental (Sp): This functions as a summon monster spell, except that the stone dragon may only summon earth elementals. The stone dragon may use this ability once per day and may summon elementals up to a size specified for its age category.

Then make its ability Summon earth elemental (Medium) at Old, (Large) at Very Old, (Huge), (Greater), (Elder).



> Sounds good. Appraise because it ought to be an expert with gems, Hide and Survival because it is a loner and apathetic.



Agreed.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2008)

Here's what the brown dragon has...

Summon Huge Air Elemental (Sp): Once per day, an old brown dragon can cast summon nature's ally VII to summon one Huge air elemental, 1d3 Large air elementals, or 1d4+1 air elementals of smaller size.

Summon Greater Air Elemental (Sp): Once per day, an ancient brown dragon can cast summon nature's ally VIII to summon one greater air elemental, 1d3 Huge air elementals, or 1d4+1 air elementals of smaller size.


Since the stone dragon's ability lines up the same (beginning at old), we could simply mimic the brown and replace air with earth, eh?  (And drop it to summon VI and VII, as those summon Huge and greater in 3.5).


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2008)

Sounds good.  Easier is better.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2008)

Updated.

What's left?


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2008)

We have to remove the ? from Ex? on Spit Stones.  Also, the tactics section needs filling in.

Do we want to do something with resistances and immunities along these lines?  We have placeholders in the SQ lines, but not descriptions.  


> Stone dragons save vs. fire and acid at - 1, and take + 1 hp damage per die of damage done on
> these attacks. Stone dragons save vs. cold at + 1, with damage being - 1 per die. Earth-based spells that normally have no saving throw do only half damage or have half the effect against a stone dragon; for example, animated rocks and conjured earth elementals only do half damage when they hit, and earthquake has a 1 in 16 chance of killing a stone dragon. Earthbased spells that do allow a saving throw do half or no damage to stone dragons, depending on the dragon's saving throw. Flesh to stone and mud to rock (and their
> reverses) have no effect on stone dragons.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks, I removed the question mark and added tactics.

Upthread, we agreed on vulnerability to fire and acid.   

We had two ideas tossed around for the cold:

1.)  A scaling resistance to cold
2.)  Save bonuses to cold attacks (scaling)?

For the earth effects, we agreed on something akin to evasion, but only applied to earth effects.

How's this?

Earth Mettle (Ex):  If a stone dragon makes a successful save against spells or effects with the earth descriptor, or against attacks from creatures with the Earth subtype, and that attack normally deals half damage on a successful save, the dragon instead takes no damage.


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## RavinRay (Jan 23, 2008)

I like Earth Mettle.

Save bonus for cold more for me.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> I like Earth Mettle.
> 
> Save bonus for cold more for me.




Save bonus equal to age category?


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

That sounds reasonable.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Updated.

Anything else?


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Not off-hand.  Maybe it's finally done!

Actually, do we need to come up with a smell?  How about "Stone dragons smell like chalk on slate."  Or something a little more poetic.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Not off-hand.  Maybe it's finally done!
> 
> Actually, do we need to come up with a smell?  How about "Stone dragons smell like chalk on slate."  Or something a little more poetic.




I like it.


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2008)

That one did take awhile, didn't it.    

I'll get a new one going soon.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

I'm going to start a 3.5 update of BOZ's 3e dracohydra in the cult of the dragon thread, if you want to work on that instead...   I always seem to have questions on those conversions.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

I'll leave that for your thread, as it seems more like an "overhaul" than a conversion at this point.    

This next one differs from the psionic dragon of the same name.

*Obsidian Dragon*
Created by: Mark Mathis
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVE: 12”/30” (MC: B)
HIT DICE: 13-15
% IN LAIR: 65%
TREASURE TYPE: H, R, U (X2)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws, 1 bite, and 1 tail strike
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8/2-8/6-48/2-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Major breath weapons, exceptional damage from bite, four attacks per round, major spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Magic resistance, high intelligence, detects hidden/invisible objects, fear aura, savingthrow bonus with age, polymorph self at will, low armor class
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 5%
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Any lawful
SIZE: L (56' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 75%
Magic Use: 85%
Sleeping: 15%
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 13-14 HD: X/13,250 + 18 per hit point; 15 HD: X/17,550 + 20 per hit point

Obsidian dragons appear in most respects to be like silver dragons. The main difference between the two is that obsidian dragons are black with silver highlights. Known only from the northern reaches of the continent of Oerik (in the WORLD OF GREYHAWK® setting), obsidian dragons are thought to be distant but more powerful cousins of silver dragons, originating (some speculate) in the Land of Black Ice. All obsidian dragons are lawful.  Some 65% are of good alignment, while 25% are neutral and 10% are evil. As with silver dragons, these creatures are able to polymorph themselves at will in order to appear to be a human or normal animal.

The obsidian dragon's tail attack only affects those targets within 20' of the tail itself. The breath weapon of the obsidian dragon is a cone of black acidic frost, 90' long with a 30' se. Creatures who fail their saving throws vs. dragon breath take the usual damage from cold, equal to the dragon' hit points, but they must save again at -2 to avoid taking 2-16 hp acid
damage as well (no acid damage is taken if this second save is made). This breath weapon can be used three times per day.  Three times per day, the obsidian dragon can also breathe forth a membranous web of black ice 10' in diameter, shot up to 60' away. Those failing a saving throw vs. dragon breath are enveloped in the web and encased in 5-8" of black ice by the end of that round. All encased creatures are held immobile and must make a second saving throw vs. breath weapon to keep their faces from being covered. Otherwise, they will suffocate in 2-5 rounds unless they can make their bend bars/lift gates strength rolls to break free, or unless the black-ice web suffers at least 12 hp damage (attack vs. AC 4). One-quarter of the damage done to the blackice web is instead inflicted on the victim so
encased.

While very young, obsidian dragons are able to cast three first-level spells. At each age thereafter, they gain three more spells of one higher spell level, plus one spell from each lower spell level. Thus, an ancient dragon could cast 10 first-level spells, nine second-level spells, eight third-level spells, etc. Ancient dragons have a 25% chance of knowing one ninth-level spell. Furthermore, 45% of magic-using obsidian dragons have spell books, so they may select spells for use rather than knowing only a limited number of spells per level.

Obsidian dragons take -1 hp/HD of cold damage inflicted upon them. They are not immune to their own breath weapons. In addition, they take + 1 hp/HD of heat-, fire-, and electricity-based attacks.

Originally appeared in Dragon #146 (1989).


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Double whammy!  No help on the dracohydra and something we might have to rename! 

If they are more powerful than silver dragons, should we use the gold dragon progression for most things?


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## RavinRay (Jan 26, 2008)

This is a very powerful dragon. The first breath weapon sounds like half-cold and half-acid damage to me; the second sounds like an entangling effect. Wasn't there a conversion of the amber dragon that had a similar effect with its breath weapon?

We can use either the gold or red dragon stats as a basis, as the latter is ever so slightly more powerful than the silver.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> This is a very powerful dragon. The first breath weapon sounds like half-cold and half-acid damage to me; the second sounds like an entangling effect. Wasn't there a conversion of the amber dragon that had a similar effect with its breath weapon?




Here's what we gave the amber:

Breath Weapon (Su): The amber dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of superheated and very sticky sap that deals fire damage, those that fail their save against the breath weapon are entangled for 1d4 rounds per age category of the dragon. An entangled creature can make an opposed strength check against the breath weapons DC to break free as a standard action. Creatures that are immune to fire must still make a save against the breath weapon to avoid getting entangled. 



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> We can use either the gold or red dragon stats as a basis, as the latter is ever so slightly more powerful than the silver.




It looks like the red is stronger, but lacks in the mental stats, so we could take the base silver stats and use the red's physical ability score progression.

Since the obsidian was 8 feet longer than the red and silver, and the red is now bigger than the silver, we can go with the red's size progression.

Sound good?


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2008)

Red physical and Silver mental stats sounds good, as does Red size progression.  Adapting the amber breath weapon sounds reasonable.  Do we want to bump the use of the breath weapons up to every 1d4 rounds (in between any breath weapon)?


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

1st: do we want to rename to avoid confusion with the other obsidian dragon?  Maybe we can make this a ferrous dragon (!) if we can come up with an appropriate metal.

Ok, why don't we say that the 1st breath weapon is just a cone of acidic frost, which deals half cold and half acid damage?  Then we can go with

Breath Weapon (Su): The obsidian? dragon has two types of breath weapon.  The first is a cone of acidic frost that deals half cold and half acid damage.  The other is a web of black ice 10 feet in diameter that may be shot up to 60 ft away.  Creatures in the target space of the web that fail a Reflex save against the breath weapon are entangled for 1d4 rounds per age category of the dragon. An entangled creature can make an opposed strength check against the breath weapons DC to break free as a standard action. Creatures that are immune to cold must still make a save against the breath weapon to avoid getting entangled.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> 1st: do we want to rename to avoid confusion with the other obsidian dragon?  Maybe we can make this a ferrous dragon (!) if we can come up with an appropriate metal.




Nah, I'd rather not make them ferrous.  If anything, I'd call them Oeridian Obsidian Dragons.  Since the others are gem dragons (and I believe a Mystaran obsidian gem dragon variant exists as well...), I think we can just call them obsidian dragons and note the other types in the flavor text.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Ok, why don't we say that the 1st breath weapon is just a cone of acidic frost, which deals half cold and half acid damage?  Then we can go with
> 
> Breath Weapon (Su): The obsidian? dragon has two types of breath weapon.  The first is a cone of acidic frost that deals half cold and half acid damage.  The other is a web of black ice 10 feet in diameter that may be shot up to 60 ft away.  Creatures in the target space of the web that fail a Reflex save against the breath weapon are entangled for 1d4 rounds per age category of the dragon. An entangled creature can make an opposed strength check against the breath weapons DC to break free as a standard action. Creatures that are immune to cold must still make a save against the breath weapon to avoid getting entangled.




A good start, but I think we need to work in the suffocation as it adds an interesting twist...



> Three times per day, the obsidian dragon can also breathe forth a membranous web of black ice 10' in diameter, shot up to 60' away. Those failing a saving throw vs. dragon breath are enveloped in the web and encased in 5-8" of black ice by the end of that round. All encased creatures are held immobile and must make a second saving throw vs. breath weapon to keep their faces from being covered. Otherwise, they will suffocate in 2-5 rounds unless they can make their bend bars/lift gates strength rolls to break free, or unless the black-ice web suffers at least 12 hp damage (attack vs. AC 4). One-quarter of the damage done to the blackice web is instead inflicted on the victim so
> encased.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

Shoot, I just rewrote the breath weapon, and the post got lost!  Anyway, I am ok with leaving the name, but let's definitely mention the other obsidian dragons.  Trying again:

Breath Weapon (Su): The obsidian dragon has two types of breath weapon. The first is a cone of acidic frost that deals half cold and half acid damage. The other is a web of black ice 10 feet in diameter that may be shot up to 60 ft away. Creatures in the target space of the web that fail a Reflex save against the breath weapon are entangled for 1d4 rounds per age category of the dragon.  An entangled victim must then make a second Reflex save against the breath weapon DC to keep their face free; on a failure, the victim begins to suffocate.

An entangled creature can make an opposed strength check against the breath weapons DC to break free as a standard action. In addition, the web of black ice is destroyed if it takes 12 hp of damage (AC 16, hardness 2), but 1/4 of the damage done in an attack against the black ice web instead is spread evenly among the entangled creatures.  Creatures that are immune to cold must still make a save against the breath weapon to avoid getting entangled.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

Looking good.  Perhaps the hp should vary by age category?   Since juvenile is the assumed age category, dividing by 4 yields 3 hp/age category.   Hardness could equal 1/2 age category, or just leave it at two.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

I like that.  3hp/age category and hardness = 1/2 age sounds good.  BTW, normal ice has hardness 0, but I thought this should be kind of magical.


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## RavinRay (Jan 31, 2008)

That's a good write-up for the breath weapon, freyar. Since this isn't ordinary ice, it's reasonable for it to have higher hardness than water ice.

Getting a bit ahead, what should we do about tail attacks? The 20-ft. restriction can either mean this dragon's reach with it's tail is smaller than normal for dragons, or that it can only use its tail to attack targets within a narrow arc of its rear (not a full circle).


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## Shade (Jan 31, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Getting a bit ahead, what should we do about tail attacks? The 20-ft. restriction can either mean this dragon's reach with it's tail is smaller than normal for dragons, or that it can only use its tail to attack targets within a narrow arc of its rear (not a full circle).




Good question.  Was the tail attack standard for dragons of that era?


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2008)

Regarding the tail: Unless this is a big departure from usual for a dragon from whichever edition this is, I'd suggest just giving it the standard dragon tail attacks.


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8/2-8/6-48/2-16
> SPECIAL ATTACKS: Major breath weapons, exceptional damage from bite, four attacks per round, major spell use
> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Magic resistance, high intelligence, detects hidden/invisible objects, fear aura, savingthrow bonus with age, polymorph self at will, low armor class




Some interesting things here.  Apparently the bite attack is greater than usual.  Shall we give it the powerful bite ability we gave the cobra dragon?

Powerful Bite (Ex): All cobra dragons gain Improved Natural Attack (bite) as a bonus feat. 

Does the blindsense ability of true dragons suffice for "detects hidden/invisible objects"?



> As with silver dragons, these creatures are able to polymorph themselves at will in order to appear to be a human or normal animal.




It sounds like it gets this ability of the silver dragon...

Alternate Form (Su): A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. The dragon can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.



> While very young, obsidian dragons are able to cast three first-level spells. At each age thereafter, they gain three more spells of one higher spell level, plus one spell from each lower spell level. Thus, an ancient dragon could cast 10 first-level spells, nine second-level spells, eight third-level spells, etc. Ancient dragons have a 25% chance of knowing one ninth-level spell. Furthermore, 45% of magic-using obsidian dragons have spell books, so they may select spells for use rather than knowing only a limited number of spells per level.




Do we want to differ from the silver's caster level progression?  The silver can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Good, Law, and Sun domains as arcane spells.  We'll need to drop Good at the very least.  Do we want to change anything else?



> Obsidian dragons take -1 hp/HD of cold damage inflicted upon them. They are not immune to their own breath weapons. In addition, they take + 1 hp/HD of heat-, fire-, and electricity-based attacks.




Cold subtype and vulnerability to electricity?


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2008)

This all sounds pretty good.  Regarding the spell casting: I'd give it the silver CL progression (or maybe even Red or Gold) but maybe take out cleric spells and the domains completely.  Any strong opinion on that?


----------



## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

Updated.

Same class skills as silver dragon (Bluff, Disguise, and Jump)?

Any other thoughts on this?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> This all sounds pretty good.  Regarding the spell casting: I'd give it the silver CL progression (or maybe even Red or Gold) but maybe take out cleric spells and the domains completely.  Any strong opinion on that?


----------



## freyar (Feb 12, 2008)

Sure, let's go with those skills.


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2008)

Is this one all done?


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## freyar (Feb 14, 2008)

What did we finally decide about the tail?  Was there a big difference between the tail attacks of this one and other dragons of that era?


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> What did we finally decide about the tail?  Was there a big difference between the tail attacks of this one and other dragons of that era?




I thought we decided to just go with standard dragon tail attacks.


----------



## freyar (Feb 14, 2008)

Then I think it's done.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

*Electrum Dragon* 
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 12"/24"
HIT DICE: 7-9
% IN LAIR: 60%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/1-4/3-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon + possible magic use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
SIZE: L (36' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 100%
Magic Use: 100%
Sleeping: 40%

The electrum dragon (Draco Magus electrum) is a rare, solitary creature who dwells far from civilization, usually in mountainous areas, and always lairs in a cavern or stone building. It is usually peaceful and philosophical in nature, but can be a formidable fighter if aroused.

An electrum dragon fights with its breath weapon or by spell casting, in addition to possibly employing its physical (claw/claw/bite) attacks, and may direct these four attacks against multiple targets in any round of combat.

Its breath weapon is a unique, unstable gas emitted in a cone 4" long by 3" by 3" high, which reacts with air and loses its effectiveness after 1 round. This gas causes enfeeblement (effects last for 1 turn), confusion (for 9 rounds), or both.  All creatures in the affected area must save twice vs. breath weapon to avoid both effects.

An electrum dragon begins life able to detect magic and read magic, gains the ability to identify items on touch - without any ill or cursed effects - upon growing to Young state, and upon becoming an Adult, gains the power to dispel magic once per day. A Very Old
electrum dragon can dispel magic twice per day. These are all natural abilities (the former two usable at will without limitation), rather than spells. 

In addition to these abilities, an electrum dragon gains the ability to cast spells as follows: Very Young specimens can cast one 1st level magic-user spell each 24 hours; Young ones can cast two 1st level spells a day; Sub-Adults, two 1st and one 2nd level spell per day; Young Adults, 3 1st and 2 2nd; Adults, 4 1st, 2 2nd, and 1 3rd level spell: Old 4, 2, and 2; Very Old: 4, 3, 2, and 1 4th level spell; and Ancient, 4, 3, 3, and 2.  These spells are never automatically known. They must be acquired from scrolls or spell books or through training with a magic-user. An electrum dragon must experiment with a written spell for some time in order to successfully modify if for entirely verbal casting. (Refer to the AD&D Monster Manual for aging and other details of dragon nature.)

Electrum dragons enjoy trading, bargaining, and philosophical debate. They hoard things of beauty (such as finely crafted items) rather than wealth per se; a typical electrum dragon's hoard might contain statues, a harp or two, tapestries, and gems and jewelry, but few coins of any metal. Electrum dragons mate approximately every 100 years, the female producing 1-4 rubbery, foot-long eggs a year after mating. These eggs are laid and left untended; each egg (if it remains unmolested) is 75% likely to be fertile, and will hatch in a matter of days.

Source:  Dragon Magazine #74 (1983).

*Electrum Dragon*
Activity Cycle:  Any
Diet: Omnivore
Int:  Exceptional (15-16)
Treasure:  See below
Align:  Neutral Good
# App: 1
AC: 2 (base)
Move: 12, Fly 24 (C), Jp 2
HD: 9 (base)
THAC0: 11 (base)
# Att:  3 plus special
Dmg/Att:  1d4 (x2)/3d8
SA: See below
SD: See below
MR: See below
Size: G (36' base)
Morale: Fearless (19 base)
XP Value:  See below

Electrum dragons are peaceful and philosophical in nature, but become deadly alert, and deliberate fighters when aroused.  They dwell alone in lairs of stone (abandoned buildings, ountains, and caverns), but they often welcome visitors because they enjoy trading, bargaining, and philosophical debate.  They hoard things of beauty rather than monetary wealth.

Combat:  In battle, electrum dragons prefer to use their spells and breath weapon from a distance.  They are wise generals, anticipating strategies of foes.  In melee they typically attack with two foreclaws and a bite.  They can pounce from aloft to strike with all four claws, but they prefer to swoop and slash with their foreclaws as they pass, dragging their hindquarters and tail to buffet a foe for 2d6 points of battering damage.

An electrum dragon's breath weapon is a cone of unique gas, 40 feet long by 30 feet in diameter (5 feet across at the dragon's mouth).  It causes enfeeblement (as the spell ray of enfeeblement for one turn and/or confusion (as the spell) for nine rounds (all victims save twice--once to avoid each effect).

An electrum dragon casts spells and uses magical abilities at a level equal to 10 plus its age category value.  At birth they can detect magic and read magic.  They also save vs. all spells cast specifically at them with a +1 bonus to the roll.  As they age, they gain the following additional powers: young - identify by touch (no debilitating effects) at will; juvenile--locate object once per day; adult--dispel magic three times per day; old--telekinesis twice per day; wyrm--protect image once per day; and great wyrm--heal (self or another, by touch) once per day.

Habitat/Society:  Electrum dragons spend much time in thought, often perched on mountain peaks, as immobile as statues.  They are curious and like to watch unnoticed the activities of creatures that dwell around them.  Much of their time is spent seeking out things of beauty or practicing magic (for they find beauty in the use of magic itself).

Electrum dragons mate about once per century, parting after a short time (typically spent trading spells and playfully darting and rolling about the sky together).  A year after mating, the female produces 1d4 rubbery, foot-long eggs.  She leaves them untended; the eggs are fertile 75% of the time and hatch 2d12 days after they are laid.

Ecology:  Electrum dragons eat lichens, scrub bushes, and graze treetops for tender young leaves.  They also eat all manner of fish, fowl, and meat, especially enjoying the flesh of wyverns and griffons.

Some electrums have invented new spells and have sold or given them to humans and elves.  In some places, electrum dragons are worshiped by primitive tribes or respected as sages.

Source:  Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1991).


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

Rather than typing out the age progression charts, I'll report the comparisons to other dragons.

Base HD are 2 less than a white.

In size, they begin about the size of a green but end up smaller than a white at the oldest age categories.  Base size also equals a green.

Spellcasting progression falls between silver and gold.  They can freely interchange priest and wizard spells.

Breath weapon progression and damage is identical to a gold dragon.

AC progression is one worse that black and white dragons.

Spell resistance progression is identical to a gold dragon.

Claw damage is worse than a white, but bite is on par with a blue dragon.

Land speed is on par with most dragons, and flight speed is identical to a topaz dragon.


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## RavinRay (Feb 15, 2008)

Quick question: Is this the Myth Drannor electrum dragon?

On to the basics…

HD and size: Less than a white but bigger than a green? So it starts out Small and ends Gargantuan. Atypical HD/size correspondence, somewhat like the steel/Greyhawk dragon.

Spellcasting: Since both gold and silver are 19th-level caster at great wyrm, it should have the same progression. I guess it can also cast cleric spells and maybe select domain spells.

Breath weapon: Duration 1 round per age category of the dragon?

AC: Natural AC still HD-1?

Spell resistance: Copy from a gold?

Claw and bite: no thoughts yet.

Speed: If fly speed is identical to the topaz' than it's also the same as the silver's. However, since the 3e topaz dragon is now the most powerful gem dragon (Colossal great wyrm) instead of second weakest, we could base it on a smaller dragon such as a sapphire or crystal.


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## freyar (Feb 16, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Quick question: Is this the Myth Drannor electrum dragon?




The fluff doesn't sound right for that...

Busy with work this weekend, but I hope to have some time for this Monday!


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## Echohawk (Feb 16, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Quick question: Is this the Myth Drannor electrum dragon?



Yes. The MCA1 version is a reprint of that page from _Ruins of Myth Drannor_, just with a different picture.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> Yes. The MCA1 version is a reprint of that page from _Ruins of Myth Drannor_, just with a different picture.




Interesting.  There are also electrum dragons mentioned in _The Fall of Myth Drannor_, which are 8 unique dragons.  On closer look, though, that source specifically says the _Ruins of Myth Drannor_ electrum dragons are something else.  They also might or might not be the progenitors of the electrum dragons we're converting.  Interesting.

On speed: why don't we go with the silver dragon's speed?


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## RavinRay (Feb 19, 2008)

Silver/topaz dragon speed: 40 ft. throughout, 100 ft. (average) to 200 ft. (clumsy) for fly. Most other dragons have the same speeds as well. The Jump 2 should translate to a Jump class skill.

Abilites: Exceptional Int (15-16) is the same as the 2e bronze, silver, and red dragons. In 3e they progress 14-26, 14 -30, and 10-26 respectively. Since they can already _detect magic_ and _read magic_ at will as wyrmlings, I'm inclined to start them off with Int 14.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2008)

Comparing size further with other dragons, it is identical to the fang on age categories 1-4, which would make it T, S, M, L at those age categories.

At age categories 5, it is still really close to the fang, which would make it L.

At age categories 6-7, its size ranges when compared to other dragons would still make it L.

At age categories 8-9, it is close to a crystal dragon, which would make it H, H.

At age categories 10-12, , its size ranges when compared to other dragons would still make it H.

So...

Wyrmling = T
Very Young = S
Young = M
Juvenile through Mature Adult = L
Adult through Great Wyrm = H.

Sound OK?


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2008)

Sounds good.  As far as the Int progression (and other mental stats also), I'd be inclined to borrow from the silver.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

Sounds good.  For the breath weapon, we've discussed duration equal to age category.  Shall the enfeebling effect improve as well?

For the ray of enfeeblement spell, the subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5).

Could we go with 1d6+age category?


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2008)

That sounds reasonable.  Also, just go with the usual single Ref save, maybe for half the Str penalty and no confusion?  Or do you want separate saves, Will to negate confusion and maybe Ref to avoid enfeeblement?


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

I'd go with the single save to avoid for simplicity's sake.  Anyone else?


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## JiCi (Feb 27, 2008)

A single save to halve the damage AND to negate the ability damage looks good to me.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews (finally!)


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## NemesisDragon (Mar 4, 2008)

Just wanted to say the Electrum looks great, I'm glad you guys got around to stating them up.  Between them and the Faerunian Yellow, you have made me very happy.  Thanks guys awsome job!  Are you all planning on updating the yellow to 3.5 at all?  Great job again!


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

I think you meant to say that a victim who fails the save (not succeeds) is confused.  Or did you mean that everyone is confused?  Also, I thought the save would half the Str damage, not negate it completely.

Do we need a subtype?  Something between fire and cold for gold and silver?


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

NemesisDragon said:
			
		

> Just wanted to say the Electrum looks great, I'm glad you guys got around to stating them up.  Between them and the Faerunian Yellow, you have made me very happy.  Thanks guys awsome job!  Are you all planning on updating the yellow to 3.5 at all?  Great job again!




Thanks!  I hadn't planned on updating the yellow, but if you need it, I'll put it on the requests pile.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I think you meant to say that a victim who fails the save (not succeeds) is confused.  Or did you mean that everyone is confused?  Also, I thought the save would half the Str damage, not negate it completely.




Good points.  I'll fix it.

As for the subtype, maybe Earth, since it "dwells far from civilization, usually in mountainous areas, and always lairs in a cavern or stone building"?


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

Earth is a good choice, I think.  Air would be my other choice, I guess.

Did we set the caster level progression, or is what you have a copy & paste job?

The MC entry is a little more specific on SLAs:



> An electrum dragon casts spells and uses magical abilities at a level equal to 10 plus its age category value. At birth they can detect magic and read magic. They also save vs. all spells cast specifically at them with a +1 bonus to the roll. As they age, they gain the following additional powers: young - identify by touch (no debilitating effects) at will; juvenile--locate object once per day; adult--dispel magic three times per day; old--telekinesis twice per day; wyrm--protect image once per day; and great wyrm--heal (self or another, by touch) once per day.




At will: detect magic, read magic (Wyrmling & older), identify (Young & older)
3/day: dispel magic (Adult & older)
2/day: telekinesis (Old & older)
1/day: locate object (Juvenile & older), project image (Wyrm & older), heal (Great Wyrm)

Questions: do we promote dispel to greater dispel and do we bump telekinesis to 3/day?


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Did we set the caster level progression, or is what you have a copy & paste job?




Yes and yes.      (We decided to mimic silver, from which I cut n' pasted).



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> At will: detect magic, read magic (Wyrmling & older), identify (Young & older)
> 3/day: dispel magic (Adult & older)
> 2/day: telekinesis (Old & older)
> 1/day: locate object (Juvenile & older), project image (Wyrm & older), heal (Great Wyrm)
> ...




Other dragons have 2/day SLAs, so I'd say stick with that for telekinesis.

I'd stick with standard dispel, since it gets it at a relatively young age.


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

Sounds good.  Do we want to add alternate form, since this is like gold & silver?

We need 2 more class skills.  I'd suggest Disguise, at least if we go with alternate form.  Also, Heal seems like a good choice, since that's a Gold Dragon skill.  

What else is left for this one?


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

Nothing seems to indicate alternate form in the original text, as far as I can tell, so let's leave that off.



> they often welcome visitors because they enjoy trading, bargaining, and philosophical debate. They hoard things of beauty rather than monetary wealth.






> Habitat/Society: Electrum dragons spend much time in thought, often perched on mountain peaks, as immobile as statues. They are curious and like to watch unnoticed the activities of creatures that dwell around them. Much of their time is spent seeking out things of beauty or practicing magic (for they find beauty in the use of magic itself).






> Some electrums have invented new spells and have sold or given them to humans and elves. In some places, electrum dragons are worshiped by primitive tribes or respected as sages.




This leads me towards Appraise and Spellcraft.

Also, treasure of half coins; triple goods; triple items?


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## RavinRay (Mar 5, 2008)

The SLA's and treasure type work fine for me, as well as those two skills.


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## NemesisDragon (Mar 5, 2008)

Sorry for being slow getting back to ya but yeah Shade, if I may humbly ask and of course it isn't urgent at all, an update for the Yellow would be awsome.  If you don't find time for it that's ok too, i'm just grateful you all have stated him up for 3rd in general.  I think i'm one of the very few if not only one who actually uses the Faerun version anymore lol.  Thank you all actually for the great work on all these dragons, you guys are the best!


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2008)

This all sounds fine to me, Shade.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2008)

Updated.

We still need domains for its spellcasting, if we want them.

I'd suggest Artifice, Knowledge, and Magic.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2008)

Domains are a good idea, and those three sound good.

So is this basically done already?


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

I believe so.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

By request, lets revisit the (Faerunian) Yellow Dragon.

Here's the 3e version:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/cc/converted/dragon/yellow_dragon.htm

2e Monstrous Manual:
*Yellow Dragon*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Desert 
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Omnivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12) 
TREASURE: See below 
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil 
NO. APPEARING: 1 (1-4) 
ARMOR CLASS: 0 (base) 
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 30 (C) 
HIT DICE: 13 (base) 
THAC0: 7 (base) 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3+special 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/1-8/2-16 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Variable 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below 
SIZE: G (36' base) 
MORALE: Champion (15-16) 
XP VALUE: Variable 

Although the existence of yellow dragons has long been predicted by sages (based on theories of primary colors), the first specimen was spotted only five or so years ago. The creatures are solitary and secretive, preferring to lay in wait for prey to stumble into carefully-prepared traps instead of hunting actively.

At birth, yellows have soft, tan scales. As they grow older, the scales harden and become lighter in color, eventually reaching the grayish yellow of desert sands. Their scales always have a dusty texture to them, giving them a finish that does not reflect light well. Even their teeth and claws have a similar finish. No part of the yellow dragon will glint in the sunlight, thereby giving away its position.

Yellow dragons speak their own tongue, which is quite different than that spoken by other evil dragons. Yellows have no interest in speaking with other races, and so they learn no other languages.

Combat: Although preferring guile to combat and ambush to attack, yellows are fierce and cunning fighters. Even if forced into a situation where direct combat is inevitable, they'll still use their spells and innate abilities so as to mislead, misdirect, and distract their opponents.

A favorite hunting tactic for a yellow is to dig a steep-walled, cone-shaped depression in the sand, and then bury itself at the bottom of this crater with just its eyes and nostrils showing. When a creature stumbles into the depression, the dragon moves its wings in the sand, causing the steep walls of the cone to collapse and drawing the prey straight to the dragon's mouth. A yellow dragon casts spells and uses magical abilities at 8th level, plus its combat modifier.

A yellow dragon's breath weapon is a high-velocity blast of scorching air mixed with sand. This affects an area 50 feet long, 40 feet wide, and 20 feet high. Creatures caught within this blast must roll successful saving throws vs. breath weapon for half damage. Regardless of the outcome of this roll, they must make another saving throw vs. breath weapon. Failure means that the abrasive sand in the breath blast has damaged their eyes, blinding them for 1d4+1 rounds.

Yellow dragons are immune to fire and heat and can cast silence, 10' radius at will. As they age, they gain the following additional powers:

Age - Abilities 
Young - create or destroy water three times per day 
Juvenile - dust devil three times per day 
Adult - improved invisibility twice per day 
Old - wind wall three times per day 
Wyrm - enervation three times per day 

Habitat/Society: Yellow dragons love deserts, preferring areas of sandy, windswept desolation. They are most comfortable in daytime temperatures of 105 degrees and up, although they can easily survive subfreezing temperatures at night. They share much the same territory as brasses; thus the species occasionally come into conflict.

Yellows are solitary, selfish creatures that form no close bonds with any other creature, including other yellows. They are highly territorial; the only time they'll let another yellow into their territory is to mate, which is actually quite rare. Immediately afterward, the dragons separate. The mother raises the offspring, but won't go out of her way to protect them from attackers. The young dragons usually leave home before they reach the juvenile age category. The main enemies of yellow dragons are brasses, which actively hunt the smaller creatures.

Ecology: Although able to eat anything, yellows favor fresh meat. (Demi)humans are considered a delicacy, as are the unhatched eggs of brass dragons. (Yellows rarely get to enjoy this latter feast.)

Age Body Lgt. (') Tail Lgt. (') AC Breath Weapon Wizard/Priest Spells MR Treas.Type XP Value

1 Hatchling 2-7 1-4 3 2d4+1 Nil Nil Nil 2,000 

2 Very Young 7-16 4-12 2 4d4+2 Nil Nil Nil 3,000 

3 Young 16-35 12-21 1 6d4+3 Nil Nil Nil 5,000 

4 Juvenile 35-44 21-28 0 8d4+4 Nil Nil E 7,000 

5 Young Adult 44-53 28-36 -1 10d4+5 1 Nil E, O, S 9,000 

6 Adult 53-62 36-45 -2 12d4+6 1 1 5% E, O, S 11,000 

7 Mature Adult 62-71 45-54 -3 14d4+7 2 1 10% E, O, S 12,000 

8 Old 71-80 54-62 -4 16d4+8 2 2 1 15% E, O, Sx2 13,000 

9 Very Old 80-89 62-70 -5 18d4+9 2 2 2 20% E, O, Sx2 14,000 

10 Venerable 89-98 70-78 -6 20d4+10 2 2 2 1 25% E, O, Sx2 15,000 

11 Wyrm 98-107 78-85 -7 22d4+11 2 2 2 2 30% E, O, Sx3 16,000 

12 Great wyrm 107-116 85-94 -8 24d4+12 2 2 2 2 1 35% E, O, Sx4 17,000 



2e Draconomicon Version:

*Yellow Dragon* 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Desert
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING:  1 (1-4)
ARMOR CLASS: 0 (base)
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 30 (C)
HIT DICE: 13 (base)
THAC0: 7 (base)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 + special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8/1d8/2d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: G (36' base)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: Variable

Although the existence of yellow dragons has long been predicted by sages (based on theories of primary colors), the first specimen was spotted only five or so years ago. The creatures are solitary and secretive, preferring to lay in wait for prey to stumble into carefully-prepared traps instead of hunting actively.

At birth, yellows have soft, tan-colored scales. As they grow older, the scales harden and become lighter in color, eventually reaching the yellow-grey of desert sands. Their scales always have a dusty texture to them, giving them a finish that doesn't reflect light well. Even their teeth and claws have a similar finish. No part of the yellow dragon will glint in the sunlight, thereby giving away its position. 

Yellow dragons speak their own tongue, which is quite different than that spoken by other evil dragons.  Yellows have no interest in speaking with other races, and so they learn no other languages.

Combat: Although preferring guile to combat and ambush to attack, yellows are fierce and cunning fighters. Even if forced into a situation where direct combat is inevitable, they'll still use their spells and innate abilities so as to mislead, misdirect, and distract their opponents.
A favorite hunting tactic for a yellow is to dig a steep-walled, cone-shaped depression in the sand, and then bury itself at the bottom of this crater with just its eyes and nostrils above the surface. When an unfortunate creature stumbles into the large depression,
the dragon begins moving its wings below the surface of the sand, causing the steep walls of
the cone to collapse. Trapped in a sand avalanche, the prey tumbles right into the dragon's mouth.

A yellow dragon casts its spells and uses its magical abilities at 8th level, plus its combat modifier.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: A yellow dragon's breath weapon is a high-velocity blast of
scorching air mixed with sand (imagine a superheated sandstorm). This affects an area 50 feet long, 40 feet wide, and 20 feet high. Creatures caught within this blast must roll successful saving throws vs. breath weapon for half damage. Regardless of the outcome of this roll, they must make another saving throw vs. breath weapon. A failure on this saving throw means that the abrasive sand in the breath blast has damaged their eyes, blinding
them for 1d4+1 rounds. 

At birth, yellow dragons are immune to fire and heat, and they can cast silence, 10'/radius at will. As  they age, they gain the following additional powers:
Young - create or destroy water three times per day
Juvenile - dust devil three times per day
Adult - improved invisibility twice per day
Old - wind wall three times per day
Wyrm - enervation three times per day

Habitat/Society: Yellow dragons love deserts, preferring areas of sandy, windswept desolation.  They are most comfortable in daytime temperatures of 105° and up, although they can easily survive subfreezing temperatures at night. (The first specimen of a yellow dragon was collected in an area of Anauroch called the Anvil of the Gods, where the average daytime temperature is 115°.)  They share much the same territory as brasses; thus the species occasionally come into conflict.

Yellows are solitary, selfish creatures that form no close bonds with any other creature, including other yellows. They are highly territorial; the only time they'll let another yellow into their territory is when it's a member of the opposite sex, and the dragon is in the mood for mating . . . which is actually quite rare. Immediately after mating, the dragons separate. The mother raises the offspring, but won't go out of her way to protect them from attackers.
The young dragons usually leave home before they reach the juvenile age category.  The main enemies of yellow dragons are brasses, who will actively hunt and kill the smaller creatures.

Ecology: Although able to eat anything, yellows favor fresh meat. . . preferably still kicking. (Demi)humans are considered a delicacy, as are the unhatched eggs of brass dragons. (Yellows rarely get to enjoy this latter feast.)

Age Body Lgt.(') Tail Lgt.(') AC Breath Weapon Spells W/P MR Treas.
1 2-7 1-4 3 2d4+1 Nil Nil Nil
2 7-16 4-12 2 4d4+2 Nil Nil Nil
3 16-35 12-21 1 6d4+3 Nil Nil Nil
4 35-44 21-28 0 8d4+4 Nil Nil E
5 44-53 28-36 - 1 10d4+5 1 Nil E, O, S
6 53-62 36-45 - 2 12d4+6 11 5% E, O, S
7 62-71 45-54 - 3 14d4+7 2 1 10% E, O, S
8 71-80 54-62 - 4 16d4+8 2 2 1 15% E, O, Sx2
9 80-89 62-70 - 5 18d4+9 2 2 2 20% E, O, Sx2
10 89-98 70-78 - 6 20d4+10 2 2 2 1 25% E, O, Sx2
11 98-107 78-85 - 7 22d4+11 2 2 2 2 30% E, O, Sx3
12 107-116 85-94 - 8 24d4+12 2 2 2 2 1 35% E, O, Sx3


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## Leopold (Mar 6, 2008)

what are we missing from the convert that's posted? It looks complete already. Can you give me some direction in tweeking?


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

Leopold said:
			
		

> what are we missing from the convert that's posted? It looks complete already. Can you give me some direction in tweeking?



 What this really needs for the 3.5 update is 3 class skills specific to the yellow dragon (in addition to the ones all dragons get).  Otherwise, I think this is mainly a chance to look over the 3e version and see if there's anything we'd want to change about it.


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## RavinRay (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll plug the stats into my MS Excel dragon spreadsheet to generate the missing 3.5 stats (BAB/Grapple, Initiative which is obviously +0, and touch and flat-footed AC). All DR become n/magic.

Edit: Basically the stats are the same as those of the green dragon, so all we have to do is supply the missing columns in the tables using the green dragon's data. I'm just curious why the descriptive text says the yellow dragon is smaller than the brass, but the HD and size of the former is bigger, even per 2e stats.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

Sounds good, RavinRay.  From reading through the flavor, Bluff and Hide seem like good choices for class skills.  Survival might also make sense.  What do you all think?


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> I'm just curious why the descriptive text says the yellow dragon is smaller than the brass, but the HD and size of the former is bigger, even per 2e stats.




That is a good question.    

When I do the next batch upload, I'll add the missing columns.  A few other things that need fixing:

Destroy water no longer exists, so I'll remove that from the "create/destroy water" ability.  Improved invisibility is greater invisibility now, so I'll fix that.  No replacement was given for dust devil 3/day at the juvenile age category.  Maybe summon monster III (air elemental only)?

The breath weapon doesn't indicate the damage type.  



> A yellow dragon's breath weapon is a high-velocity blast of scorching air mixed with sand. This affects an area 50 feet long, 40 feet wide, and 20 feet high. Creatures caught within this blast must roll successful saving throws vs. breath weapon for half damage. Regardless of the outcome of this roll, they must make another saving throw vs. breath weapon. Failure means that the abrasive sand in the breath blast has damaged their eyes, blinding them for 1d4+1 rounds.




How's this?

Breath Weapon (Su): A yellow dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of scorching air and earth, which deals half fire/half bludgeoning damage (Reflex half).  Additionally, creatures in the cone must succeed on a Fortitude save or be blinded for 1d4 rounds plus 1 round per age category.

It looks like immunity to fire also needs to be added at wyrmling stage.



> At birth, yellows have soft, tan-colored scales. As they grow older, the scales harden and become lighter in color, eventually reaching the yellow-grey of desert sands. Their scales always have a dusty texture to them, giving them a finish that doesn't reflect light well. Even their teeth and claws have a similar finish. No part of the yellow dragon will glint in the sunlight, thereby giving away its position.




Bonus on Hide checks in sandy environments?

And I agree with Bluff, Hide, and Survival as class skills.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

I like all of that.


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## RavinRay (Mar 7, 2008)

Ditto. That blast of sand must feel like embers on your skin. And it's different from the sand dragon's similar breath weapon.


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## Leopold (Mar 10, 2008)

+5 bonus to hiding in Sandy enviornments or something similar to what the other dragons gets.

I 3rd all the above suggestions as Good.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

Hmmm, none of the SRD true dragons seem to have any skill bonuses, but I'd suggest +4, since that's a common number for a skill bonus.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hmmm, none of the SRD true dragons seem to have any skill bonuses, but I'd suggest +4, since that's a common number for a skill bonus.




Indeed.  The sand dragon lacks a skill bonus as well, while the desert landwyrm is +4.

I'm fine with dropping the skill bonus altogether, though.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

I'm about 50-50 on the hide bonus.  What does everyone else think?

Does this update need anything else?


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## RavinRay (Mar 10, 2008)

I'm slightly on the side of no Hide bonus, since the yellow is described as a rare chromatic dragon (let's ignore the other yellow dragon for the time being), and as freyar pointed out, none of the other chromatics has a similar bonus.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> I'm slightly on the side of no Hide bonus, since the yellow is described as a rare chromatic dragon (let's ignore the other yellow dragon for the time being), and as freyar pointed out, none of the other chromatics has a similar bonus.




Yeah, I'm convinced...no Hide bonus.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

*NIGHT DRAGON (Drogas retinosis)*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-6 (20%: family groups of 2-8)
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 15'
HIT DICE: 2-8 (d8)
% IN LAIR: 60% (100% in daylight hours, 20% at night)
TREASURE TYPE: Dx2
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Up to 4-32
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Hide in darkness
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average to high
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (up to 32' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The night dragon gets its name from its nocturnal hunting habits and is well adapted for this style of attack. Its scales are black with grey streaks, camouflaging the creature in any underground or after-dark environment. Night dragons are almost never encountered in daylight, spending their days in their caves or other dark lairs. For this reason their range of vision includes both infravision and ultravision, but their vision is rather weak in the normal spectrum.

The beast's quiet movement and the ability to stand perfectly still when approached provide it excellent cover. In any encounter in the dark, a night dragon will be 90% undetectable at a range of over 3" unless it is backlighted or within the radius of a light spell (or faerie fire, etc.). When within 3" of a party, a night dragon will attack, usually with surprise, unless the dragon has already been detected. If strong light is used by its opponent(s), the dragon will be at a slight disadvantage (-1 "to hit" on all of its attacks, including its breath weapon).

Night dragons are quite intelligent and sometimes hunt in groups of 2 or more. These hunting packs are especially fearsome since they will act in concert, to the maximum disadvantage
of their prey. Such tactics as baiting an enemy into an ambush (with ambushers hidden in the dark), attacks from the rear, and group breath attacks are not unknown.

This species of dragon exhibits increasingly powerful capabilities with age, as do others of this genus (see the Growth Table below). Hatchlings are 3' long including the short, thick tail, with 2d8 for hit points and a bite that does only 1-4 points of damage. The night dragon grows at the rate of 1 foot every 4 years. At the age of 20 years (8' in length), the dragon gains the use of its breath weapon, and the damage from its bite increases to 1-8 points. The dragon gains one hit die for every 20 years of age thereafter, and an additional 1-8 points of damage for its bite every 40 years, to a maximum of 8 hit dice at age 120 and 4-32 points of bite damage at age 140. The dragon does not grow or experience an increase in power beyond age 140; individuals have been reported as old as 160 years.

The breath weapon of the night dragon is an extremely bright beam of light only ½" in width, effective out to a length equal to the length of the dragon converted to scale "inches." Hence, a 25-foot-long dragon can use his breath weapon to a distance of 25", converting to 250 feet indoors or 250 yards outside). When the breath weapon hits an enemy, the light causes damage equal to the dragon's number of hit dice, except that damage is rolled with d6s instead of the d8s used for hit dice; thus, the breath weapon of a 120-year-old night dragon will do 8d6 damage. A successful saving throw vs. breath weapon allows half damage.  

In addition - only if the saving throw is failed - the breath weapon will cause blindness in victims by damaging their eyes.  A character blinded by a night dragon will remain sightless for 2 days, unless magical aid (such as cure blindness) is used to restore vision. At the end of the 2 days, the victim can regain his or her lost sight by making a save vs. poison. Failing this saving throw means that the victim is permanently blind unless magical aid is employed.

Family groups of these dragons will typically have 1-4 adults (60+ years old) and 1-4 juveniles (each less than 40 years old).  The juveniles will only attack if directly threatened, preferring to remain motionless so that they may go undetected while the adults lead the threat away from them.

Night Dragon Growth Table
Age (years) Hit dice Bite damage Length
0-19 2d8 1-4 3-7'
20-39 3d8 1-8 8-12'*
40-59 4d8 1-8 13-17'
60-79 5d8 2-16 18-22'
80-99 6d8 2-16 23-27'
100-119 7d8 3-24 28-32'
120-139 8d8 3-24 33-37'
140-160 8d8 4-32 38'
*Breath weapon capability gained at age 20.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #74 (1983).


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## JiCi (Mar 21, 2008)

A bonus to Hide checks at night seems logical.

Hmmm... that's one nasty breath weapon we've got there. I say we get a "new" rule for this breath weapon.

- At daytime, the breath weapon deals 1d8 points of pure damage per age category, rendering blinded targets for 1d4 rounds on a failed save and nothing else on a success. The range is halved during daytime.

- At night time, the breath weapon deals 2d8 points of pure damage per age category, rendering blinded targets for 1d4 day on a failed save with the secondary effect and blinded for 1d4 rounds on a success. The range is as standard during night time.

- Both as a line-shaped breath weapon

Light Sensitivity (ex) as a weakness, like drows and Concealment in dark areas seem good.

As for which dragon to copy, I have no clues how you guys do so since this thread even began, but my guess would be the blue dragon.

Since these guys are hunters, any spell-like abilities to help them hide and camouflage them would be good, such as darkness, web, entangle, deeper darkness, ghost light, forestfold and such. Furthermore, how about giving them favored enemies, since that wasn't in the 2e edition ?


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2008)

I'm not quite sure where the night/day difference in the breath weapon comes from, but it is logical.  Might be too complicated, though.

I'd agree with light sensitivity.  Probably a hide bonus in the dark makes sense, though we noted none of the SRD dragons seem to have hide bonuses.  An Su ability for concealment in the dark would be neat, though.

We usually figure out age progressions by comparing to the different old edition dragons.

There aren't any SLAs in the original, so we probably won't give it any.  Favored enemies might work, though.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

The Hit Dice are odd for a true dragon, but comparing the lengths to other dragons of the time, they look about comparable to a copper or green dragon.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2008)

Let's go with the Green for size and HD.  Copper has the same HD, but it seems to start a little smaller in 3.5.


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## RavinRay (Mar 26, 2008)

It does look like a smaller dragon. I agree with freyar on the copper's size progression.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> It does look like a smaller dragon. I agree with freyar on the copper's size progression.



 I actually thought that copper looks a little too small (tiny seems smaller than 3'-7' at wyrmling).


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

OK, so green size/HD progression.

They have a greater range of intelligent than a green, and can be as smart as the copper.  Since the copper only has a slight edge in 3e, let's follow its progression.  Shall we follow the copper's other mental stats as well?

Nothing suggests we need to deviated from the green's physical ability scores.  Thoughts?

With a 50' land speed, it is faster on the ground than all 1e Monster Manual dragons.  I'd suggest we give it a minimum land speed of 60 feet, like the gold.  Do any of you think we should go even higher?

Here's the intro text to the article which explains why they cannot fly and lack spells and spell-like abilities:



> Taxonomically, dragons have always been considered an isolated group. According to the Monster Manual, they are all members of the same genus (Draco) and, apparently, only distantly related to the reptiles. However, from faraway Drogasia comes word of a form that is obviously related to the Draconian dragons, but also merits distinction as a separate group.
> 
> The Drogasian land dragons, or "landragons," as they are called by the natives, have breath-weapon abilities like their cousins do, but they lack the ability to fly. However, they have stunted wing appendages (often put to use for purposes other than flight) that serve as evidence of the strong evolutionary link between the two groups. Other noteworthy differences between the types include the bulkier build of the Drogasians, the shorter, thicker tail, often used as a defensive weapon, and a different growth pattern from that of all flying dragons. Also, few of these flightless dragons show the intelligence associated with their better-known counterparts.
> 
> ...


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

Copper mental and green physical stats sound good.

60 ft is ok with me.

Huh, this intro text reminds me of what we were doing in the "creating new true dragons" thread over in homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

All of the above sound reasonable. I might be tempted to say 70ft for the land speed.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> All of the above sound reasonable. I might be tempted to say 70ft for the land speed.




I may be tempted to agree.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

> The breath weapon of the night dragon is an extremely bright beam of light only ½" in width, effective out to a length equal to the length of the dragon converted to scale "inches." Hence, a 25-foot-long dragon can use his breath weapon to a distance of 25", converting to 250 feet indoors or 250 yards outside). When the breath weapon hits an enemy, the light causes damage equal to the dragon's number of hit dice, except that damage is rolled with d6s instead of the d8s used for hit dice; thus, the breath weapon of a 120-year-old night dragon will do 8d6 damage. A successful saving throw vs. breath weapon allows half damage.
> 
> In addition - only if the saving throw is failed - the breath weapon will cause blindness in victims by damaging their eyes. A character blinded by a night dragon will remain sightless for 2 days, unless magical aid (such as cure blindness) is used to restore vision. At the end of the 2 days, the victim can regain his or her lost sight by making a save vs. poison. Failing this saving throw means that the victim is permanently blind unless magical aid is employed.




Breath Weapon (Su): A night dragon has one breath weapon, a line of extremely bright light.  In addition to hit point damage, any creature damaged by the breath weapon is blinded for two days.  At the end of two days, the victim may make a Fortitude save (DC equal to that of the breath weapon) to regain sight; the blindness is permanent on a failure.  Magic may restore the victim's sight at any time.

How's that?  Any thoughts about the damage progression?  It seems like the original was kind of low (probably because of the blindness), but, since night dragons have no SLAs or spellcasting, I could see a reasonable amount.

Also, this dragon looks like it only has 8 age categories.  Are we going to go to the usual 12?


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 28, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Also, this dragon looks like it only has 8 age categories.  Are we going to go to the usual 12?




Since true dragons only had 8 age categories in 1e, why not?


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Since true dragons only had 8 age categories in 1e, why not?



 Ah, excellent, I learn something new every day, even weekends!


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## RavinRay (Mar 29, 2008)

We can stick with 12 age categories and still have the short life span since the rattelyr from Faerûn's Shining South ages 5× faster than normal, reaching great wyrm at 240 years. Also the rattelyr, like the night dragon, has very few abilities (hood and rattle), but these are potent.


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2008)

A short life span sounds good to me.  So let's make sure this has a couple of strong abilities to go along with a powerful breath weapon.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> We can stick with 12 age categories and still have the short life span since the rattelyr from Faerûn's Shining South ages 5× faster than normal, reaching great wyrm at 240 years. Also the rattelyr, like the night dragon, has very few abilities (hood and rattle), but these are potent.




I like that idea.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

So... any other SAs to add to this?


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> Night dragons are almost never encountered in daylight, spending their days in their caves or other dark lairs. For this reason their range of vision includes both infravision and ultravision, but their vision is rather weak in the normal spectrum.




Perhaps greater darkvision than normal, but give them a penalty on Spot checks in daylight?



> The beast's quiet movement and the ability to stand perfectly still when approached provide it excellent cover. In any encounter in the dark, a night dragon will be 90% undetectable at a range of over 3" unless it is backlighted or within the radius of a light spell (or faerie fire, etc.). When within 3" of a party, a night dragon will attack, usually with surprise, unless the dragon has already been detected. If strong light is used by its opponent(s), the dragon will be at a slight disadvantage (-1 "to hit" on all of its attacks, including its breath weapon).




Something like the shadow blend ability of the shadow dragon?



> Night dragons are quite intelligent and sometimes hunt in groups of 2 or more. These hunting packs are especially fearsome since they will act in concert, to the maximum disadvantage of their prey. Such tactics as baiting an enemy into an ambush (with ambushers hidden in the dark), attacks from the rear, and group breath attacks are not unknown.




Maybe a greater bonus on flanking or other teamwork abilities?


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## RavinRay (Apr 2, 2008)

I agree with all three, I'm just curious how we can word the last one.

(With the sidebar on draconic evolution, it's feasible to re-classify the night dragon not as a true dragon, but a lesser dragon that happens to share the same age categories as true dragons—the sea serpents in _Dragon_ Magazine come to mind—although it ages faster, like the rattelyr.)


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

JiCi had a nice idea to give them light sensitivity based on "If strong light is used by its opponent(s), the dragon will be at a slight disadvantage (-1 "to hit" on all of its attacks, including its breath weapon)."

I like shadow blend.  

Teamwork (Ex): Night dragons receive double the normal bonus from flanking, X, X.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Anyone have thoughts of what other teamwork this should get double benefits from?


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Anyone have thoughts of what other teamwork this should get double benefits from?




Looking at some feats with similar flavor: additional damage, the ability to flank things that can't normally be flanked, improved dodge bonuses for the flanker.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2008)

Well, these aren't that powerful for dragons, so I say we give them all of that!  For the extra damage, maybe +1d6 for each night dragon within 30 ft or something?


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

Updated.



> The beast's quiet movement and the ability to stand perfectly still when approached provide it excellent cover.




Hide in plain sight?

Hide and Move Silently as class skills?  Maybe Bluff as the third skill?


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

I like those suggestions.  This is starting to become more like a dragon!   Anything else we can add?  Something about the "group breath weapon" mentioned in the "pack hunting" paragraph?

Group Breath Weapon (Su): If three or more night dragons use their breath weapons simultaneously in such a way that their breath weapon lines intersect at a single point, the breath weapons instead form a spherical area with radius equal to half the length of the breath weapon of the eldest night dragon participating.  Creatures within this area take damage as from the sum of the dragons' breath weapons (Ref save for half at the DC of the eldest night dragon's DC).  The group breath weapon does not cause blindness.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

I like it!


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2008)

Oh, good!  Just realized that we should say that the "spherical area" should be "spherical region" and that it should be "centered at the point of intersection."


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

Updated.

Breath weapon damage 1d8/age category?  Do we want it to still deal greater damage at night/in darkness?


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## RavinRay (Apr 24, 2008)

Wow! That's a first with the group breath weapon. It doesn't need to deal more hp damage in the dark for me since this is independent of the ambient light conditions (unlike blindness).


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

I don't actually think there's anything in the original text about damage increasing in the dark, so I'd say no.  But let's see what everyone thinks.


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

I agree with RavinRay, for the reasons he specified.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Agreed, then.  Any other abilities to add to these?


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Updated.

CR 1 less than green at each category?


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

Sounds fine.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

I only reduced the green's CR at levels with spellcasting, as otherwise they're fairly comparable.

All done?


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

Sounds good and looks done to me.


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## JiCi (Apr 29, 2008)

It's all good Shade.

So what's next ?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

Let's finish off the other landragons before moving on.

*Scintillating Dragon (Drogas radiatas)*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (10%: 1-6, family group)
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVE: 12"
HIT DICE: 2-12
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: D
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: up to 1-8/6-36
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Fear at -3 (see below)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low to average
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (up to 45' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

This land dragon has a more muscular body than the flying types, with an agile, snake-like neck and a short, thick tail. The dragon's scales are luminescent and iridescent; its body is colored in rainbow tones that sometimes seem to ripple across the scaly surface. The scales have a soft glow of their own, which intensifies the "moving rainbow" effect and actually turns the dragon's appearance into a sort of natural weapon.

The dragon's strange appearance will entrance some adventurers. Upon sighting the dragon, all humanoids must attempt to save by rolling their intelligence or less on d20, with a -3 modifier to the die roll. Those failing this roll will either run away in panic (if the roll would have failed without the adjustment) or stand entranced by the flashing colors. Those thus enraptured will continue to watch the dragon until they are attacked or until the dragon moves out of view.

The entrancing effect will be negated if victims are forcibly turned to face away from the dragon or blinded in some way (a hood, for instance) and kept from viewing the dragon for one round. Likewise, it takes one round for characters to "snap out of it" after the dragon leaves their viewing area. But if an entranced character is attacked, the trance is broken immediately.  The entrancing effects of the dragon's scintillating hide can only "charm" a character upon first glance (when the saving throws are rolled). Those who make this saving throw will not be affected as long as the dragon remains in viewing range. However, a new round of saving throws would be required if the dragon moved out of, and then back into, viewing range.

This land dragon is not unintelligent and will usually attempt to eat or disable immobile, entranced victims (attacking at +4 against such defenseless creatures). The scintillating dragon sees humans as a good source of protein as well as a threat to its own existence, and will attack a human-dominated group with virtually no provocation, unless the dragon senses itself to be vastly outclassed. The beast seldom seeks out civilized areas for its depredations, but will if its normal sources of food are depleted.  Anyone who ventures into the home ground of a scintillating dragon is considered, literally, fair game.

As with other members of this genus, the growth of this species is slow but sustained. At the time of hatching, a young dragon is only 6' long (including the tail). Growth for the first 60 years of the dragon's life is at the rate of 1 foot every 2 years, to a length of 36' at age 60. Then the dragon's growth slows to 1 foot every 10 years, to a maximum length of 46' attained at 160 years of age. Individuals of the species have reportedly lived to age 200.

The scintillating dragon's abilities in all respects are reflected by its size, with damage, hit dice, and hit probability increasing as body length increases. A newly hatched dragon has 2d10 hit points, a bite that does 1-6 points of damage, and a tail that does no damage. As the dragon grows, it gains 1 hit die for every 4 feet of growth.  At 16 years of age (14' in length), the dragon's bite damage increases to 2-12 points and the bludgeon-like tail is strong enough to do 1-2 points of damage. This is also the age when the dragon acquires its breath weapon capability. With every 8 feet of additional growth, the bite damage increases in damage by 1d6 and the tail by 1 point of damage at the maximum (skipping the ranges of 1-5 and 1-7). The beast's breath weapon ability increases as a function of hit points, in the manner described following the table.

SCINTILLATING DRAGON GROWTH TABLE
Age (years) Hit dice Bite Damage Tail Damage Length
0-7 2d10 1-6 0 6-9'
8-15 3d10 1-6 0 10-13'
16-23 4d10 2-12 1-2 14-17'*
24-31 5d10 2-12 1-2 18-21'
32-39 6d10 3-18 1-3 22-25'
40-47 7d10 3-18 1-3 26-29'
48-55 8d10 4-24 1-4 30-33'
56-79 9d10 4-24 1-4 34-37'
80-119 10d10 5-30 1-6 38-41'
120-159 11d10 5-30 1-6 42-45'
160-200 12d10 6-36 1-8 46'
* Breath weapon capability gained at age 16.

The breath weapon of the scintillating dragon is a shimmering beam of energy, 10 feet wide and with length equal to five times the length of the dragon (up to a maximum of 230 feet).  The presence of the beam is practically undetectable; the beam itself is invisible, but when it is in use the affected area resembles thousands of glinting dust particles in a strong beam of light.  Damage is computed by rolling one d6 for each hit die the dragon has (up to 12d6), with a saving throw vs. breath weapon for half damage. The dragon can use this breath weapon up to 3 times per day.

The damage from this breath manifests itself in an unusual form. Only half the damage is felt immediately (round down), as "burn damage." The remainder appears over the course of the next two days (half of the remainder each day) as the victim gradually weakens (losing 1-3 strength points each day) and breaks out in large burns. Non-magical healing from these wounds doesn't begin until the fourth day after infection and proceeds at only half the usual rate. Magical healing applied on the day of the attack heals only half the damage rolled for at the time of the healing, but the remaining half of regained hit points will be applied against the delayed damage.

Only after the victim's healing is completed (by magic, time or a combination of the two),  he victim may become aware of the worst effect of this insidious ray: Short of the use of regeneration or a limited wish spell, not all of the damage done by the breath weapon will heal. Permanent damage to a victim is reflected in a reduction in the victim's number of recoverable hit points.

To compute the amount of permanent damage, roll percentile dice and multiply the result, as a percentage, times the amount of delayed damage incurred by the victim (round down). This gives the number of hit points that may not be recovered thereafter without the use of high-level magic. If the hit points or strength points of a victim drop below zero at any time during the "delayed damage" process, he is dead.

The loss of strength points is independent of the amount of damage taken, even if more than one breath attack is used on the same figure. The lost strength points will be recovered at the same rate as lost hit points (one every 2 days), and magical cures will not help this (except for regeneration). When a healing/curing spell is used on a character who has also suffered damage of another sort, the other damage is recovered first, before applying any of the healing power to the breath damage.

Example: Kasanati the Unwise, sixth level fighter, and his party are involved in a melee with a scintillating dragon 39 feet long. During the fight, the dragon breathes on Kasanati, doing 10d6 of damage. Kasanati successfully rolls his saving throw, cutting the damage in half, but still suffers 14 points of damage.  Seven points are applied immediately. The party's cleric casts a cure light wounds spell, expecting to heal about 4 points of damage, and is puzzled when only 2 points are cured. (The spell actually did heal 4 points of damage, but only half of the healing points are applied immediately.)

The next day, as they travel, Kasanati feels weak (he has lost 1 strength point) and, by day's end, he has lost another 3 hit points (4 minus 1 of the "healing points") and large blemished areas are appearing on his skin.  

The next day, Kasanati loses another d3 of strength (2 points this time) and 2 more points of damage (3 minus the last "healing point"). Kasanati does not die, since his original hit-point total and strength score were high enough to stand these losses. The DM now rolls percentile dice for permanent damage, getting a 68. This means that the unlucky fighter will be unable to recover 68% of the hit points he lost to the "delayed damage" effect of the dragon breath. The delayed loss was 7 hit points (simply half of the total damage; the effect of the cure spell does not enter into this calculation).

So, of the hit points Kasanati lost to delayed damage, four are lost forever (68% of 7 = 4.76, rounded down to 4) and the other three can be recovered. The maximum number of hit points Kasanati can have when at full strength is now four less than it was before he decided to engage the scintillating dragon (as if he had never rolled those four hit points in the first place). This reduction can only be offset by regeneration, limited wish, or alter reality spells.

Since the effect of its breath is so damaging and long-lasting, the scintillating dragon is usually treated with great respect by all creatures that live within its area, and the dragon moves about with self-assurance. It expects most of those it meets to flee (either by being panicked by the "scintillation" attack, or through real fear of what it can do), or be chewed up if they are unlucky enough to be entranced.

If several characters attempt to fight it together, the dragon will be offended -- not afraid --and if attackers are clustered it will use its breath weapon (if possible) to "burn" all who stand in its way, hoping to garner one or two to satisfy its nearly constant hunger. If forced into melee, it will use its large mouth to bite (again, bringing its breath weapon into play if several opponents are within a potential area of effect), while beating its tail back and forth to cover its rear. Anyone hit by the tail must make a saving throw vs. breath weapon or be knocked to the ground and unable to attack in the next round.

If more than one scintillating dragon is encountered, it will be a family group consisting of a female and her brood. The hatchlings of this species remain with their mother for protection until they are capable of using their breath weapon and fending for themselves. The female will be at least 30' long and the juveniles all 15' or less. (Sometimes one of the young will remain with the mother for a year or so after acquiring use of the breath weapon at 14'.) The mother will be very defensive and will attack at the slightest provocation in an encounter.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #74 (1983).


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Whew, this breath weapon's going to be a doozy!


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## RavinRay (May 1, 2008)

Well, that breath weapon reminds me in some ways of the 2e crystal dragon's crystalline shards breath weapon. From the description, it seems that the beam seems to illuminate dust particles in the air.

I'm getting ahead of the stats, but the entrancing effect reminds me of the nymph's blinding beauty and the _scintillating pattern_ spell.

BTW Shade since the land dragons comprise a distinct subcategory of dragons, they might warrant a separate introductory material (like epic dragons) that describe their common traits, including their faster aging process.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Well, that breath weapon reminds me in some ways of the 2e crystal dragon's crystalline shards breath weapon. From the description, it seems that the beam seems to illuminate dust particles in the air.
> 
> I'm getting ahead of the stats, but the entrancing effect reminds me of the nymph's blinding beauty and the _scintillating pattern_ spell.




I can see that.  Speaking of the stats, anyone have a line on how these compare to dragons of the appropriate edition?



> BTW Shade since the land dragons comprise a distinct subcategory of dragons, they might warrant a separate introductory material (like epic dragons) that describe their common traits, including their faster aging process.




That sounds like a good idea!


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## Shade (May 2, 2008)

Comparing to other 1e dragons...

Its Hit Dice range wildly.  At its top age category, it is equal to the high end of a gold's range.

Its bite damage at the top age category also equals a gold.

Its size is closer to a red or silver.

AC equals a copper.

Land speed is about standard for true dragons.

INT is closest to a white.


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## freyar (May 3, 2008)

Wow, kind of all over the place.  Here's a suggestion:

Mental ability score progression: White
HD progression: Gold
Physical ability scores: Gold
Size: Red
AC: Copper

The slightly smaller size will drop the damage of melee attacks, but going with Gold physical abilities may make up for that slightly.


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## Big Mac (May 5, 2008)

*Can you update your "shopping list"?/Are you doing SJ dragons?*

Please excuse me interupting the flow of your conversions, but I have a question:



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The following is a list of true dragons from various D&D sources that haven't yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog.




(I've cut the actual list off, to make this post shorter.)

Is there any chance that you could modify the list at some point. I don't want you to delete stuff, as the post is a record of all the hard work everyone is doing. But it might be nice for you to add a note to tell people what dragons are done (and maybe a link to point people to the finished conversion).



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> MC9: Spelljammer II
> -Moon
> -Stellar
> -Sun




These dragons are not listed on your *Unconverted Spelljammer creatures* thread, so I thought you might have done them here. But I couldn't find them.

I'm assuming they are not on the other thread, because Shattered Fractine already has conversons of the Moon Dragon, Stellar Dragon and Sun Dragon.

I know that sometimes you do monsters again, even when they have been done before. Are you going to use the Shattered Fractine versions or remake these dragons? (I don't see them on the Monsters of Wildspace list at Beyond the Moons. And the existing conversions don't include the additional SUs and subtypes on BtM's Monsters in Spelljammer page.)

I would like to see these dragons (and the Radiant Dragon - which you seem to have either missed out or done already) given the Natural Spelljammer (Su) and the Wildspace Subtype.

If I hang aroud this thread, is that likely to happen, or should I take this up elsewhere?


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

Hey Big Mac!

I believe I had them listed because they didn't have an official WotC conversion.  Lately, I've been prioritizing creatures that haven't been converted by any other websites (per Echohawk's index).   I figure if and when we're caught up, we might do our own take on conversions.   We may still do some creatures already converted elsewhere if we get a request, or if they're a favorite creature we'd like to put our "stamp" on (like the elementals of law and chaos we started when Mortis was around).

So we'll probably finish up those that have been unconverted anywhere before tackling any that have already been done elsewhere.

I'm not sure why I didn't include the radiant, but I suspect it is due to the radiant dragon in the Draconomicon (which is probably quite different than the Spelljammer version).

Does that help?


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## Shade (May 7, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Wow, kind of all over the place.  Here's a suggestion:
> 
> Mental ability score progression: White
> HD progression: Gold
> ...




I think that could work.  I'll Homebrews these guys when I have a big chunk of freetime.  True dragons are *lots* of work to set up!


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## freyar (May 7, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think that could work.  I'll Homebrews these guys when I have a big chunk of freetime.  True dragons are *lots* of work to set up!



 No joke.  I'm homebrewing the dracohydra right now in my spare time.  Copying into tables from another thread has taken me 2 days so far and still isn't done!


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

> The breath weapon of the scintillating dragon is a shimmering beam of energy, 10 feet wide and with length equal to five times the length of the dragon (up to a maximum of 230 feet). The presence of the beam is practically undetectable; the beam itself is invisible, but when it is in use the affected area resembles thousands of glinting dust particles in a strong beam of light. Damage is computed by rolling one d6 for each hit die the dragon has (up to 12d6), with a saving throw vs. breath weapon for half damage. The dragon can use this breath weapon up to 3 times per day.
> 
> The damage from this breath manifests itself in an unusual form. Only half the damage is felt immediately (round down), as "burn damage." The remainder *appears over the course of the next two days* (half of the remainder each day) as the victim gradually weakens (*losing 1-3 strength points each day*) and breaks out in large burns. Non-magical healing from these wounds doesn't begin until the fourth day after infection and proceeds at only half the usual rate. Magical healing applied on the day of the attack heals only half the damage rolled for at the time of the healing, but the remaining half of regained hit points will be applied against the delayed damage.
> 
> ...




My bold above.  First off, what breath weapon progression do we want to use?  This lists 1d6 per age category (I think), so what does that compare best to?

Next, seems like half the hp damage is delayed.  A bit awkward, but ok.  Also, there's delayed Str damage.  Finally, some of the hp damage is "permanent."  Do we want to model that on Con drain?


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> My bold above.  First off, what breath weapon progression do we want to use?  This lists 1d6 per age category (I think), so what does that compare best to?




The white and topaz both had 1d6/age category progression in 2e.  The white retains this in 3e, but the topaz gets a huge jump in damage.  I'd say stick with the 1d6/age category progression.  It deals enough secondary effects to be quite potent.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Next, seems like half the hp damage is delayed.  A bit awkward, but ok.  Also, there's delayed Str damage.  Finally, some of the hp damage is "permanent."  Do we want to model that on Con drain?




I'd much prefer Con drain to permanent hp damage.  I'm not a fan of things that cannot be undone (like the lavawight or winter wight's ability to permanently remove hit points).


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

Had a thought about this.  What if we do 1d6/age category damage immediately, 1d3 Str damage a day on the two following days and 1 pt Con drain/age category per day the next two days?  It's not quite the same, but I think it pretty well covers the bases.  We could up the Con drain if we want.


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## RavinRay (May 20, 2008)

So this dragon has a breath weapon that behaves in some ways like a disease that has an incubation period before the full effects work. The Styx dragon's acid breath deals damage over three rounds (half damage in the 2nd round and quarter damage in the 3rd round), so there is precedence for this. And in line with what Shade says, I don't know of any dragon so far who's breath weapon deals permanent HP damage or ability drain.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

The fang dragon has ability drain on a bite attack; the shadow dragon does negative levels. That's about as close as we'll get, methinks.


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

Ok, I'll give this a try.

Breath Weapon (Su): A scintillating dragon has a single breath weapon, a line that does untyped damage.  In addition, a victim that takes hit point damage from the breath weapon takes additional damage on the following two days.  One and two days after being damaged by the scintillating dragon's breath weapon, the victim must make a Fortitude save or take 1d3 points of Str damage and 1 point of Con drain per age category of the dragon.  Ability damage and drain caused by separate uses of the breath weapon stack.


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Looks pretty good!

What else do we need?  As landragons, they don't have spells or spell-like abilities.   

Suggested class skills?


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Did we handle the scintillating scales yet?


> The scales have a soft glow of their own, which intensifies the "moving rainbow" effect and actually turns the dragon's appearance into a sort of natural weapon.
> 
> The dragon's strange appearance will entrance some adventurers. Upon sighting the dragon, all humanoids must attempt to save by rolling their intelligence or less on d20, with a -3 modifier to the die roll. Those failing this roll will either run away in panic (if the roll would have failed without the adjustment) or stand entranced by the flashing colors. Those thus enraptured will continue to watch the dragon until they are attacked or until the dragon moves out of view.
> 
> The entrancing effect will be negated if victims are forcibly turned to face away from the dragon or blinded in some way (a hood, for instance) and kept from viewing the dragon for one round. Likewise, it takes one round for characters to "snap out of it" after the dragon leaves their viewing area. But if an entranced character is attacked, the trance is broken immediately. The entrancing effects of the dragon's scintillating hide can only "charm" a character upon first glance (when the saving throws are rolled). Those who make this saving throw will not be affected as long as the dragon remains in viewing range. However, a new round of saving throws would be required if the dragon moved out of, and then back into, viewing range.


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

It sounds like the rainbow pattern spell.  I'd go with Will save instead of Int check.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Here's a shot at it.  Rainbow Pattern almost does it, but not the fleeing part.  The biggest thing I can't decide is whether the save should be Con or Cha based (and if Cha based, does it only work at age categories when the dragon has frightful presence).

Scintillating Scales (Su): The scales of a scintillating dragon glow softly on their own, which acts to fascinate all creatures.  When any creature first comes within sight of a scintillating dragon, it must make a Will save or become fascinated by the dragon.  If the creature fails the Will save by 5 or more, it becomes panicked by the dragon.  A successful save indicates that the creature is immune to that scintillating dragon's scintillating scales for 1 minute.  The save DC is X-based.

The fascination effect lasts until the creature has been unable to see the scintillating dragon for one full round.   Otherwise, a potential threat allows a new Will save and an obvious threat automatically breaks the fascination.  Another character may also break the fascination by using a standard action.


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## RavinRay (May 23, 2008)

Sounds good. Do we give it a range like frightful presence, since both are laregly visually-based?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Ahh, absolutely.  30 feet?  Treat it as a gaze attack except that it's the dragon's body rather than eyes?  What do you think about Con vs Cha based?


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Looking good.  How about keeping it simple and using same range as frightful presence?   I'm thinking Cha-based.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

That all sounds good to me.  Since Cha-based, same range as frightful presence, how about only giving this to young adult and older (like frightful presence)?


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

That sounds good.

Any suggestions for class skills?  Most of the ones that seem to fit are already class skills for dragons (Intimidate, Sense Motive, Knowledge).  It seems to confident to Hide or Move Silently.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Ummm, Appraise (never did quite understand why all dragons don't get that), Jump, Swim.  Jump's good because it can't fly, and maybe Swim is reasonable.  Otherwise Survival might be an ok choice.


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## RavinRay (May 24, 2008)

Yeah I'd rule out Hide since those scintillating scales are one of its weapons. Jump and Survival are good.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Updated.

CR progression as blue?  They have 2 more HD at each age category, but lack spellcasting and spell-like abilities.  However, their breath weapon is really nasty.

Triple standard treasure?


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

CR (and LA?) as blue is ok.  Definitely triple standard treasure.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

Think so!  You can drop the * on the CL column if you want since it doesn't cast.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Here's the last of the landragons...

*Arack (Drogas amagia)*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4 (50%: 1 only)
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVE: 15" (climbing: 9")
HIT DICE: 1-10
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: B
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE PER ATTACK: up to 1-8/1-8/5-30
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, tail
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Breath weapon
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- to low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (up to 40' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The appearance of the arack dragon, and its use of a breath weapon, make it an obvious relative of the Draconian ("true") dragons. Its lizard-like body with slightly stunted wing appendages is somewhat bulkier than the bodies of the flying dragons, but its size and mobility on land make it a formidable opponent.

This species has blue-grey scales and a deep red underside matched in color by the crest on the head and neck and the membranous ligatures on the malformed wings. The wings have three slender "fingers" of unequal length, one with a long nail.  These are the "wing spears" the beast uses as a secondary weapon in melee.

Arack dragons are found in rocky areas on the outskirts of civilization.  They feed on domesticated cattle, sheep, and goats that stray into their area, as well as wild prey. In their encounters with humanoids, they will be very territorial and defensive. The arack will bluff and charge "half-heartedly," with crest and wings expanded, trumpeting the call that gives the beast its name, attempting to drive off anyone who comes within its domain. If the intruders run away, the dragon(s) will generally not pursue, unless especially hungry (1 in 6 chance). If cornered or the target of a charge, these beasts will attack at once, using the breath weapon in the defensive mode while doing so.

These great "lizards" grow fairly slowly but continually throughout their lives. Newly hatched young average 4' in length (nose to tail) and thereafter they grow at a rate of about 3' every 10 years until they are 120 years old. Beyond that, during old age, no further growth occurs.

Dragons of this species can live to be about 150 years old. As they grow, they gain hit points and earn increases in their melee attack ability. They are hatched with 1d10 hit points and gain one hit-point die with every 4 feet of growth; hence, the length of a particular arack can be used to determine its number of hit dice (length divided by 4, rounded down).  

A newly hatched arack dragon has no breath weapon, its wing spears are unusable in attack, and its bite does only 1-6 points of damage. When it reaches 10 years of age, the creature gains the use of both its wing spears and its breath weapon; at this point, the wing spears do 1-3 points of damage per hit each, and the gas emitted by the breath weapon has full effect but only covers an area within a 14' radius to 7' high.

As the dragon grows thereafter, the area of effect of its breath weapon grows as well, with the height always equal to the dragon's length and the radius twice as large. The wing spears do 1-4 points of damage at age 40, 1-6 points at age 80, and 1-8 points at age 120.  The damage figure for the beast's bite increases as well (as shown on the accompanying growth table), going up by 1d6 for, roughly, each 27 years up to age 106.

The breath weapon of the arack dragon is a gaseous cloud, nearly transparent but faintly visible in daylight (but not under torchlight, moonlight or magical light short of a continual light spell). The size (area of effect) of the breath weapon, as mentioned above, is a direct function of the dragon's size. The height of the cloud is equal to the length of the dragon's body, and the radius it covers is equal to twice that number.

The breath weapon is usable only twice per day but does not dissipate quickly; the cloud normally persists for 10 turns. Living creatures (except for the arack) within the gas will notice a sticky dampness and a stifling lack of oxygen (described by the DM as "stuffiness"). This causes the loss of 1 additional hit point, cumulative, for each round that a victim is in the gas cloud: 1 point for the first round, +2 points in the second round (for a total of 3), +3 points in the third (total of 6), and so on.

If a victim retreats out of the cloud and remains out of its area of effect for a number of rounds equal to the time he or she was inside, then the cumulative effect is "reset" (to 1 point) if the cloud is reentered. If the "time out" is not as long as the last period of "time in," then the cumulative damage will continue to increase, counting upward from where the count left off, if the cloud and the victim again come into contact. A character who retreats out of the cloud and stays out long enough to "reset" the cumulative damage receives a saving throw (vs. poison), success indicating only half (of the total accumulated) damage was taken from the character's last time in the cloud. 

The other effect of the arack's breath weapon is a damping effect that it has on magic. The gas reduces the combat effectiveness ("to hit" and damage figures) of all magical weapons by 2, and has an adverse effect on certain spells. A +1 or +2 weapon becomes, in effect, a +0 weapon, still magical in nature (with its other special properties intact) but having no enhanced combat usefulness at the moment. A +3 weapon becomes "worth" only +1, and so forth. Cantrips and first-level spells will fail automatically in the casting, or cease to operate - regardless of the level of the caster - if their area of effect coincides, in whole or in part, with the gas cloud. A character attempting to cast a spell of higher than first level must make a saving throw, using the proper row of the following chart, for the casting to succeed - but this save is only necessary if the spell is targeted into or through the breath cloud. (This is in addition to all other rolls that might be necessary to determine spell success or failure.)

If a magic item having charges is within the area of the breath, the DM may (optionally) secretly roll a saving throw for each charge remaining in the item, assuming in this case that the gas dissipates charges from the item upon exposure of the item to the gas, but does not prevent it the item from operating (except, possibly, by dissipating all of its charges). Artifacts and relics will not be affected in any case, their spells work normally within the gas, and they may not be discharged while in the gas.

Spell saving throws
Cantrips = Fail automatically
1st = Fail automatically
2nd = 20
3rd = 17
4th = 15
5th = 12
6th = 9
7th = 5
8th = 1
9th = Succeed automatically
Rings = 7
Rods = 15
Staves = 14
Wands = 16

In melee, the arack can be a formidable opponent. If a fight is imminent, the beast will use its breath weapon to create a cloud of gas in a convenient area, then step into the cloud to fight the humanoids threatening it. The gas does not dissipate or spread under normal conditions (short of a gust of wind spell or the like), so anyone trying to fight it must suffer the effects of the breath unless it can be blown away. The effects are not always obvious, however, since the gas is nearly invisible, even in daylight.

Meanwhile, the arack will attack with its mouth and wing spears against anyone in front or alongside it (on three separate targets). The neck is supple, able to attack on either flank, and the beast is quick about turning to face those who think they are behind it. In battle, it sweeps its tail back and forth continually and with some velocity. Anyone to the rear of the dragon will have to contend with the tail as they attack; a successful hit by the tail (rolled as for any other "to hit" chance) knocks the opponent down, does no damage, but causes the victim to take a round to get back to his or her feet.

ARACK DRAGON GROWTH TABLE
Age (yrs.) Hit dice Wing spears Bite
0-9 1d10 none 1-6
10-12 1d10 1-3 1-6
13-26 2d10 1-3 1-6
27-39 3d10 1-3 2-12
40-52 4d10 1-4 2-12
53-66 5d10 1-4 3-18
67-79 6d10 1-4 3-18
80-92 7d10 1-6 4-24
93-106 8d10 1-6 4-24
107-119 9d10 1-6 5-30
120-150 10d10 1-8 5-30
*Breath weapon capability gained at age 10.

Length
4'-6'
7'*
8'-11'
12'-15'
16'-19'
20'-23'
24'-27'
28'-31'
32'-35'
36'-39'
40'

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #74 (1983).


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## RavinRay (May 29, 2008)

Yet another dragon with non-standard abilities. I like the challenge!

It looks like it has wing spear attacks in place of claw attacks.
It has a very low HD and size progression rate (Small to Huge?).
Int appears low too, but Dex seems high.
It can bluff its opponents by making itself appear larger in a confrontation, like the real-world Australian frilled lizard _Chlamydosaurus_.
It has a magic-dampening and suffocating breath weapon.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

Excellent summary.

Hmmm....these guys definitely break the mold.   They only gain 1 HD at each age category, and they don't gain their breath weapons until age category 2.

Added to Homebrews.

Let's figure out ability score progression.


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## Shade (Jun 12, 2008)

I wonder if the wing spears should function as wing buffets for a dragon of one size category larger, deal piercing damage, and maybe do x3 on a critical (like a spear)?


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

I like that idea for the wing spears.  

The ability score progression should be fairly slow, given the low HD.  We could maybe use the white's mental progression (duplicated for physical, too?), but maybe that's too much even.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Int ranges from 2 to 7, so we could stick with that and just increase it by 1 point every 2 to 3 levels.  I'd imagine Wis would be average to decent (see other predators like tigers and wolves), but Cha is probably only average.

What if we start with the very young white dragon's Str and Con, then increase by 1 at each age category (and maybe boost by an additional 1-2 at each size increase)?

As RavinRay pointed out upthread, Dex seems decent.   Maybe start at 12 and increase by 1 per age category?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

That sounds like a good plan to me.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Updated with an ability score progression.  Nothing else has been modified yet.   How does that look?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Well, these will be the wimpiest true dragons EVAR, but I think that seems about appropriate.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Yeah, but imagine the joy for a DM to be able to fling a great wyrm at about mid levels.  

Their breath weapons aren't too shabby, and the Cha is identical to a white, so at least it isn't totally teh suck.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

Well, let's start thinking about the breath weapon, then.



> The breath weapon of the arack dragon is a gaseous cloud, nearly transparent but faintly visible in daylight (but not under torchlight, moonlight or magical light short of a continual light spell). The size (area of effect) of the breath weapon, as mentioned above, is a direct function of the dragon's size. The height of the cloud is equal to the length of the dragon's body, and the radius it covers is equal to twice that number.
> 
> The breath weapon is usable only twice per day but does not dissipate quickly; the cloud normally persists for 10 turns. Living creatures (except for the arack) within the gas will notice a sticky dampness and a stifling lack of oxygen (described by the DM as "stuffiness"). This causes the loss of 1 additional hit point, cumulative, for each round that a victim is in the gas cloud: 1 point for the first round, +2 points in the second round (for a total of 3), +3 points in the third (total of 6), and so on.
> 
> ...




Ok, very nonstandard.  First things first, do we want to make it a lingering cloud as it currently stands?


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

Good question.

The lingering would be interesting, but would be too powerful with the standard 1d4+1 rounds between uses.

2/day with the nearly 2-hour duration seems odd, though.


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## Big Mac (Jun 19, 2008)

I think the "lack of oxygen" part of the breath weapon should have the same effect as drowning (rules wise).

I've got no problem with the cloud hanging around for 10 turns (100 minutes). After all, this cloud can only be created twice a day.

I think the anti-magic part of the cloud should have the same effect as dispel magic or a cut down greater dispel magic spell. I'm not sure how to replicate the (optional) item charge reducing effect. Maybe the cloud could be described as leeching magic instead of dispelling it.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

Big Mac said:
			
		

> I think the "lack of oxygen" part of the breath weapon should have the same effect as drowning (rules wise).




Or the suffocation rules?  



			
				Big Mac said:
			
		

> I've got no problem with the cloud hanging around for 10 turns (100 minutes). After all, this cloud can only be created twice a day.




My main problem with this is that most breath weapons moved to the much-more-elegant-IMHO "once every 1d4+1 rounds".   One problem with "twice per day" is that it could open the first two rounds of combat with its breath weapon.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

Here's a thought: still use 1d4+1 round recharge, each breath lasts 1 minute (more than enough to suffocate someone).  The breath is a cone of appropriate size, which forms a cloud of radius equal to 1/4 its length centered halfway down the cone.  It follows the suffocation rules.  We can decide whether the breath is either an instantaneous dispel/greater dispel on items in the cone or acts like an antimagic field in the cloud.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

I like it.

Just a thought...we could have it improved from dispel to greater dispel to antimagic as it ages.


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## Big Mac (Jun 19, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Or the suffocation rules?




Doh!  



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Here's a thought: still use 1d4+1 round recharge, each breath lasts 1 minute (more than enough to suffocate someone).  The breath is a cone of appropriate size, which forms a cloud of radius equal to 1/4 its length centered halfway down the cone.  It follows the suffocation rules.  We can decide whether the breath is either an instantaneous dispel/greater dispel on items in the cone or acts like an antimagic field in the cloud.




I get you. You are kind of dividing the 200 minutes up into one minute puffs.

From a dispel point of view, it probably makes more sense. You could even have the cloud act as an area dispel and only knock out one magic item per breath. Then it could have very similar wording to the spell and people would understand it easier.

Is a cone the best shape to turn into a cloud? Wouldn't a line be more likely to spread out into a shape the size of a dragon?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Just a thought...we could have it improved from dispel to greater dispel to antimagic as it ages.




That is brilliant.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

I also like the idea of improving the antimagic as it ages.  Line vs cone doesn't matter so much, but I just kind of felt that a cone "looks" more like a cloud.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Other dragons that used to have cloud-shaped breath weapons have cones in 3e.

Technically, spread is probably the most accurate 3e representation.  

Greater dispel at old, antimagic at great wyrm?


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

So let's stick with cone and then it turns into a spread.  Those ages sound good for the "dispel improvements."


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## RavinRay (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm turning to my trusty ol' _Draconomicon_ for inspiration.

The smoke drake's two breath weapons (smoke and incendiary cloud) form a 30-ft.-radius spread centered on itself, so there is precedent for spread-shaped breath weapon. The Styx dragon's breath weapon lasts for 3 rounds, while the Lingering Breath metabreath feat causes the breath to remain as a cloud for 1 round. The Spread Breath feat also shapes a breath weapon into a spread.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2008)

Excellent!  Then spread it is!   How does this look?

Breath Weapon (Su): An arack has one type of breath weapon, a spread of choking, magic-inhibiting gas that persists for 1 minute.  Creatures within the cloud must make Fortitude saves or begin to suffocate (see Suffocation in the DMG).  Additionally, the spread functions as an area dispel magic effect (caster level equals twice arack's Hit Dice).   Upon reaching the old age category, an arack's breath weapon functions as greater dispel magic, and at great wyrm is treated as an antimagic field.

The breath weapon fills a spread centered on the arack's head and is 10 feet for a Small arack, 15 feet for a Medium arack, 20 feet for a Large arack, and 25 feet for a Huge arack.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2008)

We might want to let greater dispel stack with the antimagic field.  Also, I assume that the dispels will only remove one effect, like the spell.


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## Big Mac (Jun 24, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Excellent!  Then spread it is!   How does this look?
> 
> ...




Its looking very good.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> We might want to let greater dispel stack with the antimagic field.




Hmm. Giving it both or giving it a choice could be good. (i.e. it should either get greater dispel *and* antimagic field *or* greater dispel *or* antimagic field.)



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Also, I assume that the dispels will only remove one effect, like the spell.




I thought that too!


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2008)

> The arack will bluff and charge "half-heartedly," with crest and wings expanded, trumpeting the call that gives the beast its name, attempting to drive off anyone who comes within its domain. If the intruders run away, the dragon(s) will generally not pursue, unless especially hungry (1 in 6 chance). If cornered or the target of a charge, these beasts will attack at once, using the breath weapon in the defensive mode while doing so.




RavinRay suggested upthread "It can bluff its opponents by making itself appear larger in a confrontation, like the real-world Australian frilled lizard Chlamydosaurus"



> The effects are not always obvious, however, since the gas is nearly invisible, even in daylight.




Did we want to do anything with the breath weapon being nearly invisible?



> Meanwhile, the arack will attack with its mouth and wing spears against anyone in front or alongside it (on three separate targets). The neck is supple, able to attack on either flank, and the beast is quick about turning to face those who think they are behind it.




Can't be flanked?  (Improved uncanny dodge?)



> In battle, it sweeps its tail back and forth continually and with some velocity. Anyone to the rear of the dragon will have to contend with the tail as they attack; a successful hit by the tail (rolled as for any other "to hit" chance) knocks the opponent down, does no damage, but causes the victim to take a round to get back to his or her feet.




It sounds like they should get tail sweep and much smaller sizes than normally allowed for true dragons.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> RavinRay suggested upthread "It can bluff its opponents by making itself appear larger in a confrontation, like the real-world Australian frilled lizard Chlamydosaurus"



Racial bonus to frightful presence DC?  Maybe +4?



> Did we want to do anything with the breath weapon being nearly invisible?



Spot check with DC equal to breath weapon DC to determine boundaries of the spread?



> Can't be flanked?  (Improved uncanny dodge?)



Imp Uncanny Dodge sounds right to me, sneak attack only by rogues of level >= HD +4.



> It sounds like they should get tail sweep and much smaller sizes than normally allowed for true dragons.



This seems to have a different effect than the usual tail sweep, though.  I agree it should start at smaller sizes (maybe at Large?), but it knocks people prone instead.  Do we want to do that?


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2008)

freyar said:


> Racial bonus to frightful presence DC?  Maybe +4?




Hmmm...I'm almost leaning more toward an Intimidate mechanic. 



freyar said:


> Spot check with DC equal to breath weapon DC to determine boundaries of the spread?




Simple and elegant.  



freyar said:


> Imp Uncanny Dodge sounds right to me, sneak attack only by rogues of level >= HD +4.




Start with uncanny dodge at wyrmling, then gain improved uncanny dodge at say, adult?



freyar said:


> This seems to have a different effect than the usual tail sweep, though.  I agree it should start at smaller sizes (maybe at Large?), but it knocks people prone instead.  Do we want to do that?




Since we're essentially rewriting the ability, we could even start it at Small.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2008)

Shade said:


> Hmmm...I'm almost leaning more toward an Intimidate mechanic.



Works for me.



> Start with uncanny dodge at wyrmling, then gain improved uncanny dodge at say, adult?



I like that well enough.



> Since we're essentially rewriting the ability, we could even start it at Small.



Sure.  We could have the damage kick in at Gargantuan as normal.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

Intimidate bonus equal to age category?

Since aracks never reach Gargantuan size, we needn't worry about tail sweep damage.  How's this?

Tripping Tail Sweep (Ex): Aracks gain a tail sweep far earlier than most dragons, and can knock opponents prone with such a maneuver. An arack can sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius equal to its reach, extending from an intersection on the edge of the arack's space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are one or more size categories smaller than the arack. An arack's tail sweep deals no damage, but affected creatures must make DC x Reflex saves to or be knocked prone. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Agreed to all of that.  Wow, I forgot how small these are (well, for dragons!).


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

Updated.

Class Skills:  Climb, Jump, Tumble?


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## Big Mac (Jul 1, 2008)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Class Skills:  Climb, Jump, Tumble?




I'd say the stuff you have added to this all looks good.

They sound like pretty logical skills to me.

*EDIT:* Sorry for the "I agree"-style post, but it is your own fault for not making any mistakes for me to point out.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

Nothing wrong with the "I agree" posts...it lets me know when we can move on.  

Suggestions for natural armor progression?


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

Those skills look reasonable.

For natural armor, what about starting with 1, adding +1 per age category with the additional boosts associated with jumping size categories?  So the progression would be: +1, +2, +3, +4, +7, +8, +9, +10, +11, +15, +16, +17.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

I like it.

Updated.

Spell resistance progression?

Environment: Any land?

Organization: Solitary or pack (2-4)?

Treasure: Standard?


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

SR= White Dragon SR -5?  Or something like that?  If we wanted to make these relatively weaker, we could just drop SR.  They do have the dispelling breath, after all.

The rest is ok, but I could see double standard treasure, since they are dragons.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Looking back over the original text, it appears they lack SR, instead moving into their breath weapon clouds to avoid magic.  So I'm fine with dropping SR altogether.

I'm cool with double standard treasure.

Now the hard part...determining CR!

I'm thinking...

Challenge Ratings: Wyrmling 1/2; very young 1; young 2; juvenile 2; young adult 3; adult 4; mature adult 4; old 5; very old 6; ancient 7; wyrm 8; great wyrm 9


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

CR is really tough on these, as there isn't anything comparable among the true dragons.  However, your numbers seem fairly reasonable.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Think so!  These are the 98-pound weaklings of dragon-kind, for sure.  White dragons go kick sand in their face at the beach.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

True, but they fill a nice niche to allow for a slightly larger, more versatile melee combatant dragon at lower levels.


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## Big Mac (Jul 22, 2008)

Bump!



...or should I say...



...wing buffet!

<boom - boom - tish>  

The *Tripping Tail Sweep (Ex)* doesn't have a DC yet:

"An arack's tail sweep deals no damage, but affected creatures must make DC x Reflex saves to or be knocked prone."​


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2008)

Good catch!  It should state "10 + 1/2 arack's Hit Dice + arack's Str modifier".

Updated.   Truly finished this time?


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2008)

Good catch!  But for this one, I think it should be a wing spear instead!


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2008)

*Aquatic Dragon*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 1 (3 on land)
MOVE: 9"//24"
HIT DICE: 9-11
% IN LAIR: 15%
TREASURE TYPE: H, S, T
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4 claws, 1 bite, and 1 tail strike
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/1-4/1-4/1-4/1-12/2-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, spell use, high intelligence, six attacks per round
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Acute senses, savingthrow
bonuses
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
SIZE: L (70' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 95%
Magic Use: 10%
Sleeping: 25%
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 9-10 HD: VIII/2,900 + 14 per hit point; 11 HD: IX/5,800 + 16 per hit point

The aquatic dragon is a water-breathing relative of the terrestrial dragons, more closely related to them than to the dragon turtle or Oriental lung wang (sea dragon).  It is fully as deadly as its winged cousins, although it cannot fly. This sea-green creature lives in all depths of the ocean, immune to changes in water pressure from some inborn magical ability.  Although it cannot breathe air, it can take great draughts of water in its lungs to enable it to "hold its breath" out of the water for 10 rounds at a time, though it cannot then bite. The creature is thus able to raid surface vessels and coastal communities.  The aquatic dragon, unlike most others, bears its young alive. Aquatic dragons live equally well in fresh or salt water.  

The aquatic dragon is amazingly maneuverable for such a large beast. In this environment, it moves above or below a large enemy or a party of small foes, striking out at once with its jaws, all four clawed feet, and its spike-tipped tail. Even deadlier is the creature's breath weapon.  Three times per day, the aquatic dragon can exhale a concentrated cloud of heavy particles which, after being in contact with the water for one segment, undergo a mysterious chemical reaction. Anything within the cloud (a cone 15' by 60') is affected as if it had undergone a lightning bolt attack for 4-40 hp damage. Aquatic dragons often use this attack on the underside of a major ship or warship; the ship's bottom is thus blasted away, and the vessel sinks in 1-4 rounds unless the wood saves vs. lightning. This attack has no effect in the air.

Almost all aquatic dragons are capable of speaking, being intelligent; very few of them use magic, however, because of the difficulty in acquiring spell books and scrolls underwater. A spell-using dragon of this type often has as its lair a cavern with a chamber filled with air to preserve books and papers. Magical items of interest to aquatic dragons are those which enable their users to go without breathing or which are normally regarded by airbreathers as cursed, because they fill the lungs of the user with water. These items enable an aquatic dragon to conduct extended plundering and hunting forays on the land of coastal areas. As for spells, the dragon gains a 1st-level magic-user spell the first two stages of its life, a 2ndlevel spell for each of the next two, a 3rdlevel spell for each of the two after that, and one 4th-level spell for each of the last two life stages.

The entrances of aquatic dragon lairs are tangled in seaweed, one strand of which is often tied to the beast's tail when it is asleep, thus awakening the dragon with its movement when someone tries to enter. Consequently, it is difficult at best to catch an aquatic dragon napping. Additionally, these dragons are immune to the effects of strangle weed, as their neck muscles and pressure-resistant bodies are so strong, so they often use this plant in their lairs as well.

Aquatic dragons gain +2 to their saving throws vs. water-based attacks, +1 to their saving throws vs. fire-based attacks, and have a -2 penalty to their saving throws vs. electrical attacks. These same values also apply to their chances to be struck in combat by creatures using these powers (such as elementals) and to the number of hit points taken per hit die of damage from such effects. Thus, an attack by a lightning quasi elemental would do +2 hp/HD damage and have a +2 bonus to hit.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #134 (1988).


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2008)

RavinRay will like these!

Well, I guess I have to ask how these compare to other dragons of the era, so we can set ability progressions, etc.


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## RavinRay (Jul 30, 2008)

You betcha! 

Incidentally, the _Bestiary of Krynn_ has an identically-named but unrelated dragon which looks like an enormous version of the real-world sea dragon (related to the seahorse, which in turn inspired both the giant seahorse and the hippocampus, the latter of which is both the generic name of the seahorse and the name of the seahorse-shaped part of the human brain that is the seat of primal desires—wait a minute, am I carrying this too far?  ). It did not appear in the game until after this aquatic dragon, I believe.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

HD are equal to a 1e red dragon, as is speed (swim speed same as red's fly speed).
Size is larger than even a gold.
Int and AC are equal to a copper.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

HD, speed, physical stats = Red
Size = Gold
AC, mental stats = Copper
CL is tough.  It looks quite low, but dragons don't really need spellbooks in 3e.  Want to go with Copper here, too?

How's all that sound?


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Breath weapon equals 60-foot cone of electricity damage, delayed 1 round?


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## RavinRay (Aug 5, 2008)

Post #300!

A breath weapon with a delayed effect gives a chance for targets to move out of the area of effect unless it somehow clings to them like the orange dragon's "sticky, gooey breath" and the yellow dragon's salt encrusting breath. The concentrated cloud of heavy particles should perhaps be able to cling to targets or make it difficult for them to swim out of it.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2008)

The question is if we want it to affect everything that was in the cloud or if it's more of a "battlefield control" option.  I personally would think that the particles cling to anything in the area of the breath (minus Ref save of course). 

Shade, shouldn't the cone size be based on dragon size?


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

I agree with "everything in the area", and yes, it should be variable based on size.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

Let's try this:

Breath Weapon (Su): The breath weapon of an aquatic dragon is a cone of adhesive particles that stick to everything in the area.  1 round after the use of the breath weapon, the particles undergo a reaction with the surrounding water and deal electricity damage to anything they touch, including equipment.  A successful Reflex save at the time the breath weapon is used halves the damage (by reducing the number of particles that stick to a character and his or her equipment).  This breath weapon does not function out of the water.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Looks good.  I imagine characters familiar with the attack rushing to get out of the water before the shock strikes.  



> This sea-green creature lives in all depths of the ocean, immune to changes in water pressure from some inborn magical ability.




I think we did pressure tolerance for another conversion.  Any ideas?

Edit:  Found it...

Water Pressure Tolerance (Ex): Sea giants take no damage from water pressure at depths of less than 1 mile (see Water Dangers in the Dungeon Master's Guide).



> Although it cannot breathe air, it can take great draughts of water in its lungs to enable it to "hold its breath" out of the water for 10 rounds at a time, though it cannot then bite.




Modify the usual hold breath ability?

Hold Breath (Ex): An aquatic dragon can hold great draughts of water in its lungs.  It may do so for a number of rounds equal to x times its Constitution score.  If out of water at that time, it risks drowning.



> Almost all aquatic dragons are capable of speaking, being intelligent; very few of them use magic, however, because of the difficulty in acquiring spell books and scrolls underwater. A spell-using dragon of this type often has as its lair a cavern with a chamber filled with air to preserve books and papers. Magical items of interest to aquatic dragons are those which enable their users to go without breathing or which are normally regarded by airbreathers as cursed, because they fill the lungs of the user with water. These items enable an aquatic dragon to conduct extended plundering and hunting forays on the land of coastal areas. As for spells, the dragon gains a 1st-level magic-user spell the first two stages of its life, a 2ndlevel spell for each of the next two, a 3rdlevel spell for each of the two after that, and one 4th-level spell for each of the last two life stages.




It sounds to me that the only reason they aren't good spellcasters is the limitations based on wizardly spellcasting.  Now that most dragons are sorcerers, the spellbook/scrolls aren't really an issue.



> The entrances of aquatic dragon lairs are tangled in seaweed, one strand of which is often tied to the beast's tail when it is asleep, thus awakening the dragon with its movement when someone tries to enter. Consequently, it is difficult at best to catch an aquatic dragon napping.




I'm not sure what to do with that, if anything.   Listen, Search, and Spot are already class skills for dragons.



> Additionally, these dragons are immune to the effects of strangle weed, as their neck muscles and pressure-resistant bodies are so strong, so they often use this plant in their lairs as well.




Immunity to strangulation?



> Aquatic dragons gain +2 to their saving throws vs. water-based attacks, +1 to their saving throws vs. fire-based attacks, and have a -2 penalty to their saving throws vs. electrical attacks. These same values also apply to their chances to be struck in combat by creatures using these powers (such as elementals) and to the number of hit points taken per hit die of damage from such effects. Thus, an attack by a lightning quasi elemental would do +2 hp/HD damage and have a +2 bonus to hit.




Resistance to fire that improves as it ages?

Vulnerability to electricity?

I also think resistance to cold makes sense due to their presence in ocean depths.

Recycle this?

Immunity to Water (Ex): A wavefire is immune to the detrimental effects of spells with the water descriptor.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  I imagine characters familiar with the attack rushing to get out of the water before the shock strikes.







> I think we did pressure tolerance for another conversion.  Any ideas?
> 
> Edit:  Found it...
> 
> Water Pressure Tolerance (Ex): Sea giants take no damage from water pressure at depths of less than 1 mile (see Water Dangers in the Dungeon Master's Guide).



You beat me to finding it, though I might have suggested the titan instead...  This looks right, though I think the description in the dragon's text would make it Su and maybe remove the 1 mile limit.  We might mention that it is due to innate magic to justify the Su.



> Modify the usual hold breath ability?
> 
> Hold Breath (Ex): An aquatic dragon can hold great draughts of water in its lungs.  It may do so for a number of rounds equal to x times its Constitution score.  If out of water at that time, it risks drowning.



Ok, w/o a special ability, x=2.  How about 4?



> It sounds to me that the only reason they aren't good spellcasters is the limitations based on wizardly spellcasting.  Now that most dragons are sorcerers, the spellbook/scrolls aren't really an issue.



I agree, but, to keep the intent of the original, it might be good to go with a slower CL progression.  That's why I mentioned copper upthread.



> I'm not sure what to do with that, if anything.   Listen, Search, and Spot are already class skills for dragons.



We could do nothing, or we could give it an ability to ignore (or reduce) the usual penalty on Listen checks while sleeping.



> Immunity to strangulation?



Sure, but I'd be interested in knowing more about strangle weed just in case. Is there a conversion of that somewhere?



> Resistance to fire that improves as it ages?
> 
> Vulnerability to electricity?
> 
> ...




I agree with resistance to fire and cold and Immunity to Water.  It certainly reads about vulnerability to electricity, but that's sure weird for something with an electric breath weapon.  I guess that's ok, though.


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

freyar said:


> Ok, w/o a special ability, x=2.  How about 4?




Let's go with 8, like some of the aquatic dinosaurs.



freyar said:


> I agree, but, to keep the intent of the original, it might be good to go with a slower CL progression.  That's why I mentioned copper upthread.




Fair enough.



freyar said:


> We could do nothing, or we could give it an ability to ignore (or reduce) the usual penalty on Listen checks while sleeping.




Hmmm...will consider it.



freyar said:


> Sure, but I'd be interested in knowing more about strangle weed just in case. Is there a conversion of that somewhere?




Tome of Horrors.



freyar said:


> I agree with resistance to fire and cold and Immunity to Water.  It certainly reads about vulnerability to electricity, but that's sure weird for something with an electric breath weapon.  I guess that's ok, though.




We could always say that it is immune to its own breath weapon, perhaps because the particles cannot cling to its scales, or because its body naturally inhibits their ability to "energize".

Suggested advancement of resistance to fire and cold?

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

Ok, strangle weed seems to kill by constriction, so maybe some immunity to constriction attacks?  Seems a bit weird.  Could make the DR include piercing or slashing.

I'm fine with your interpretation of the immunity to its own breath.

Maybe resistance to fire and cold should be 5 every three age categories (ending with 20 at Ancient and older)?


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## RavinRay (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm looking at the grappling rules for suggestions on strangulation.


> *If You’re Pinned by an Opponent*
> 
> When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.



Being pinned sounds similar to being constricted in this case. Maybe the aquatic dragon can be immobile but take no additional damage due to the constriction in either HP loss or Constitution damage.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

RavinRay said:


> I'm looking at the grappling rules for suggestions on strangulation.
> Being pinned sounds similar to being constricted in this case. Maybe the aquatic dragon can be immobile but take no additional damage due to the constriction in either HP loss or Constitution damage.




That might work.  We should also look at the garrote rules in Song & Silence.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

Shade said:


> That might work.  We should also look at the garrote rules in Song & Silence.



I like that idea!  Will try to do that tonight.  They were updated to 3.5 in one of the last paper Dragon mags, too (but I don't think they were changed much if at all).


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2008)

Any luck?

I seem to have misplaced Song & Silence.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm always forgetting about things to look up at night...

To strangle someone:
1) Make special melee touch attack (provokes AoO, if you are damaged, attack fails*), but certain armors still provide an AC bonus.
2) If successful, next round make a grapple check (-4 if using only hands**), deal damage* or force victim to hold breath**.  Most normal grapple rules apply.
3) Continue opposed grapple checks.
*=S&S version
**=Dragon #355 version

If you are being strangled:
Succeed on opposed grapple to escape.
Make Bluff check to pretend to fall unconscious.**
Cut off garrotte at -4 penalty.*


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2008)

How about something like this?

Immunity to Strangulation (Ex):  Due to a combination of powerful neck musculature and its inherent resistance to water pressure, an aquatic dragon cannot be strangled.  This renders it immune to garrotte attacks, the constriction attack of chokers, and other attacks that target the neck and deal damage based upon cutting off breathing.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

Excellent, I like it!  (Whew, post #4000!)

What else do these need?


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2008)

You're racking up the frequent poster miles.  

Updated.

We still need class skills.  Swim seems like a no-brainer.  Maybe Tumble due to their "amazing maneuverability"?   Survival?


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

Those look like pretty good class skills.  

The only other thing I saw looking back at the original text is that they are easily awoken because they tie themselves up in weeds that serve as trap/alarms when they sleep.  Just want to put this in flavor or give them an SQ such that they don't take the usual penalties on Listen checks when asleep?


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2008)

I think that makes more sense as flavor, since it really isn't an ability of the dragon itself.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

I guess the stat parts of these are pretty much done, then.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

Something else we need to visit:



> The aquatic dragon is amazingly maneuverable for such a large beast. In this environment, it moves above or below a large enemy or a party of small foes, striking out at once with its jaws, all four clawed feet, and its spike-tipped tail.




Should we leave a note that the tail slap (and possibly sweep) deals half piercing damage due to the spikes?

Should we give it two additional claw attacks equal to its primary two, or something more akin to rake?  Either way, we need to note that it may only use such attacks while in water.

Also, since it lacks wings, we need to note that it lacks wing buffet attacks.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

I'd say that the tail slap gets 1/2 piercing, but not the sweep.

Rather than rake, why don't we just say that it has 4 claws starting at Medium size (or whatever age category that is).  That is, it gains the extra 2 claws instead of the wing buffets.  I don't think rake quite seems appropriate.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

Sounds good.

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

Hey, looks done!


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## RavinRay (Sep 5, 2008)

Been really busy this week preparing for our high school homecoming (it's our 20th - ack!) so I haven't been active here, but looks like Shade's got that strangulation and tail attacks spot on, and the claw attacks look good to me.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

*Dragon, Brine*
Climate/Terrain: Any ocean
Frequency: Very rare
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Special (see table)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 (2-5)
ARMOR CLASS: 2 (base)
MOVEMENT: Sw 9
HIT DICE: 11 (base)
THACO: 9 (base) 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 +special
DAMAGE/ ATTACK: 4d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, spells, surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable by age
SIZE: H (26’)
MORALE: Champion (15)
XP VALLUE: Variable

Brine dragons are fully aquatic; they cannot fly or walk on land, nor breathe air.  They do not enjoy even breaking the sea’s surface, but sometimes do so if given the proper incentive, such as a boatload of juicy humans.

These massive creatures look much like plesiosaurs with draconian heads.  They have flippers where other dragons have claws, and their oversized teeth make them appear as if they are smiling all the time.  The grin is not a friendly one.

The hide of the brine dragon is rough and mottled, ridged and craggy.  The scales are irregular, and do not fit together well.  Huge clumps of salt dot its body, some so old that they are discolored and cannot be dissolved in the water.

Combat:  The brine dragon is a good swimmer.  Its unwieldy bulk belies its swimming ability; brine dragons can move through the oceans without causing so much as a ripple.  As a result, opponents suffer a -1 penalty on their surprise rolls.  The dragon itself is acutely aware of disturbances in the currents, and is surprised only on a 1-in-10 chance.  It attacks with little or no provocation.  Sometimes it doesn’t attack, even when combat might be expected; brine dragons are extremely capricious and unpredictable.

The brine dragon’s bite causes terrible damage and can badly gouge large marine creatures such as whales or amphidragons.

Breath weapon/Special Abilities:  The brine dragon breathes a cloud of alkaline-salt-and-saliva-based spray that burns like acid.  The cloud is 90 feet long, 45 feet wide, and 45 feet high.  Those successfully saving vs. breath weapon suffer half damage.  The brine dragon can use this breath weapon once every three rounds.  The breath weapon can be used equally well underwater, on the surface, or against an aerial target.

Brine dragons are themselves immune to poisons and acids.  As a brine dragon ages, it gains several magical abilities (See table), each usable three times per day.

Habitat/Society:  Brine dragons are unpredictable, violent, and have nihilistic tendencies.  They have no leader or society.

Brine dragons make their lairs out of coral and rock formations, using their caustic breath and spittle to glue together a convenient cave.  Each brine dragon stakes out its turf, which can vary day to day from 100 yards to ten miles across.  Its cave remains its only point of fixed interest.

When a brine dragon lays its eggs, the female usually stays around and raises the hatchlings, though sometimes the male stays and does the job instead.  Other times both parents stay and raise the hatchlings, or both parents leave and let the eggs fend for themselves.  Sometimes the parents get hungry and just eat the eggs or young.  Their extremely random parenting keeps the number of brine dragons low.

Ecology:  Brine dragons get their name from their love of salt.  The dragons eat salt and also absorb it as they swim the oceans.  Often they can be found in coastal salt marshes.

Brine dragons hate black dragons and will attack them at every opportunity.  Otherwise, they will eat nearly anything, including marine undead.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995).


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

Body length ranges from 5-8 at wyrmling to 92-102 at great wyrm.

Breath weapon ranges from 1d4+1 to 12d4+12.

SLAs are gained as follows:  Melf’s acid arrow (age 6), stinking cloud (age 8), fear (age 11), and cloudkill (age 12).

MR begins at age 5 at 10% and increases by 5% thereafter.

Treasure is nil until age 4, which is ½ F, then F for ages 5-7, F and G for ages 8-9, and F, G,H thereafter.


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## freyar (Sep 8, 2008)

If the body length is in feet, I'd say this sounds pretty big.  Probably like the Red/Gold progression, but I could go a step down.

Breath weapon sounds closest to White, but we could just go with the original.  Cone of acid, I guess.

Physical stat progression is probably pretty good, mental pretty bad.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

Looking at other 2e dragons…

It is about the same size as a black dragon.
Its breath weapon is slightly weaker than a white dragon’s (d4s vs. d6s)
Spell resistance progression is nearly identical to black dragon.
Bite damage is greater than even a gold dragon, so we should probably give them powerful bite (treat as one size category larger).
They have no true spellcasting, just SLAs.


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## freyar (Sep 8, 2008)

Let's go with black size & SR, 1d4 breath/age category.    Definitely powerful bite (and maybe augmented crit?).


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## RavinRay (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm surprised why the Dragonlance team left out the brine dragon when they converted all the 2e monsters. Ok, getting to the details.


> The brine dragon’s bite causes terrible damage and can badly gouge large marine creatures such as whales or amphidragons.



The bite might cause wounds to bleed freely that cause Con damage.


> The dragon itself is acutely aware of disturbances in the currents, and is surprised only on a 1-in-10 chance.



An aquatic version of tremorsense, I think we gave the ichthyodrake this one.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

Why not both augmented critical and bleeding wounds, gained at different age categories?  Maybe bleeding wounds at juvenile and augmented critical at adult?

Added to Homebrews.

Water or Aquatic subtype?

I don't see the aquatic version of tremorsense on the ichthyodrake, but I know I've seen it on another creature before.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

I like the suggestion of bleeding wounds at juvenile and augmented crit at adult as well as the suggestion for aquatic tremorsense.

Since these can't breathe air, I think I'd go with aquatic subtype.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Updated.

It looks like we can just use plain 'ol tremorsense:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Tremorsense (Ex): A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. *Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water.* The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.




Do we want it to be a set distance, or based upon age category? 



> The brine dragon is a good swimmer. Its unwieldy bulk belies its swimming ability; brine dragons can move through the oceans without causing so much as a ripple. As a result, opponents suffer a -1 penalty on their surprise rolls.




Racial bonus on Move Silently checks while in water?  No penalties when moving at greater speeds (normally, Move Silently imposes -5 at full speed and -20 when running or charging).

Other than that, I think we just need two more class skills (beyond Swim, obviously).   Maybe Move Silently and Survival?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

The suggested skills sound good.

Tremorsense should depend on age category (or size, really).  For the G dragons, it should probably be 120 ft, but that seems a lot for a T wyrmling.  Maybe start at 30 ft, increase to 60 ft when it hits Large, and go to 120 ft partway through Huge?


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Would 10 feet x age category work?


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## RavinRay (Sep 11, 2008)

10 ft./age category is reasonable.

I'm going to compare the brine dragon with the other Krynnish aquatic dragons (sea dragon, amphidragon, aquatic dragon) and the dragon turtle to see how it stacks up head-to-head once we've gotten most of the stats set.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

RavinRay said:


> 10 ft./age category is reasonable.
> 
> I'm going to compare the brine dragon with the other Krynnish aquatic dragons (sea dragon, amphidragon, aquatic dragon) and the dragon turtle to see how it stacks up head-to-head once we've gotten most of the stats set.




With that, I think we're pretty much set.

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Yeah, pretty easy for a dragon!


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## RavinRay (Sep 12, 2008)

The sea dragon is the most powerful of the marine dragons, while the amphidragon is the least. The (good) aquatic dragon is in between but closer to the amphi. The brine dragon is a bit comparable to the aquatic: it has slightly higher Str and Con, slightly lower Dex, lower Int, Wis and Cha, more HD, but no spellcasting levels and slightly weaker breath weapon.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

RavinRay said:


> The sea dragon is the most powerful of the marine dragons, while the amphidragon is the least. The (good) aquatic dragon is in between but closer to the amphi. The brine dragon is a bit comparable to the aquatic: it has slightly higher Str and Con, slightly lower Dex, lower Int, Wis and Cha, more HD, but no spellcasting levels and slightly weaker breath weapon.




Do you think this one is finished, or do we need to modify it to better fit that niche?


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## RavinRay (Sep 13, 2008)

I think we've got the stats all done. As an aside, the aquatic dragon already has its hands (or fins) full dealing with sea dragons and amphidragons, now it has to deal with brine dragons as well.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

*Dragon, Beljuril*
Climate/Terrain: Volcanically active regions
Frequency: Very rare
Organization: Solitary or clan
Activity Cycle: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: Special 
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: Variable
MOVEMENT: 12, fly 30 ©, swim 18
HIT DICE: Variable (12 base)
THACO: Variable
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ ATTACK: Variable
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to fire and heat
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable 
SIZE: Variable
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALLUE: Variable

The beljuril dragon is a remnant from a time when oceans of magma lapped against the shores of young continents.  A hatchling is dark gray but slowly develops the coloration of a lava lake: gray or black plates interspersed with bright red and yellow outlines.  An older dragon gradually loses this pattern of colors and develops dark gray and violet scales streaked with incandescent blue and green.

Beljuril dragons speak their own language and that of one type of creature living nearby.  (Usually they have few neighbors.)  Adults are 50% likely to speak the language common to all gem dragons.  Hatchling beljurils have a 5% chance of being able to communicate with any intelligent creature.  This chance increases by 5% per age category.

Combat:  Since they live in such isolated places, young beljuril dragons are curious about creatures that they have never seen before.  They rarely initiate combat, and their harsh environment usually protects them from any threats.  One of the only times older dragons seek conflict is when seeking a new home in seismically active territory.  Beljuril dragons are immune to heat-based attacks.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities:  Beljuril dragons have two breath weapons.  One is a burst of energy, which discharges as a beautiful green, violet, or blue lozenge with sparkles of flashing light. This blast absorbs heat, light, and vibratory energy at random and releases 25 SFPs.  The charge is silent, cold, and generates a powerful electrical discharge.  The blast sometimes (10% chance) produces 1d6 fist-sized beljuril gems worth 5,000 gp, base value.  The dragons can use their breath weapon only in a seismically active environment.  Their other breath weapon is a gout of magma.  (Occasionally, this magma is of an unusual quality, with game effects different from that given for lava).  Like other gem dragons, beljurils have psionic ability.

Psionics Summary:
Level = HD, Dis 2/Sci 2/Dev 3, Attack PsC/Defense TW, Score=Int, PSPs 200

Common Powers
Psychokinesis—Sciences: Molecular rearrangement, telekinesis.  Devotions: Control flames, control wind, inertial barrier, molecular agitation, molecular manipulation.
Psychometabolism—Sciences: Energy containment, metamorphosis.  Devotions: Cell adjustment, chemical stimulation, lend health, suspend animation.

Habitat/Society:  The beljuril dragon inhabits lava lakes formed at the summit of a volcano by an eruption.  This is an awesome environment where curtains of fire and fire fountains periodically appear.  The lava flowing in these lakes is smooth and sinuous.  The surface cools into a dark skin, which is torn and cracked by the currents, and by the movements of beljuril dragons.  The dragons rarely leave their lakes, except when a new eruption is imminent.  At this time, the dragons take flight, seeking out new lakes or other large concentrations of lava.  The beljuril dragon lair is a complex consisting of the lava lake and the surrounding caves and mountain structures nearby.

Great treasures can be found in beljuril dragon lairs.  However, any precious metals or gems are usually found in a raw state.  Beljuril dragons swim among rare ores carried into the lava lakes from deep within the earth (type and value may be determined by the DM).  The lakes are also 50% likely to contain liquid silver and copper (worth 1,000-8,000 cp and sp respectively); the problem, of course, is extracting and cooling it.  Gold deposits worth 1,000-10,000 can be found under and around the lava lakes, and there is an 80% chance of finding 1,000-10,000 gp worth of molten ornamental stone.  The old rock around beljuril dragon lairs is studded with beljurils.  (Most beljuril strikes are found in old beljuril dragon lairs that haven’t been used for generations.)  See the dragon age category chart for  the number of beljurils found at each life stage of the dragon.  There is also a 60% chance of finding 1d100 other semi-precious gems such as quartzes, crystals, and rainbow obsidian.  At age level 6 and above, beljuril dragos start to collect meteorites, or star metal.  One of the few times that they travel away from seismic areas is to collect this material, which aids them in their spellcasting and their arcane rituals.  The dragon age category chart lists the number of star metal pieces (at base value 10,000 gp) that the dragon has collected.  There is a 10% chance of finding 1d6 magical items, but only those items that can withstand great heat are found at a beljuril dragon’s lair.

Ecology:  Beljuril dragons derive sustenance from seismic energy, and they must stay in a seismically active environment to remain healthy.  They don’t actually consume gems and minerals, but surround themselves with them by filtering the seismic energy need to survive through the crystalline structures of the stones.  Beljuril dragons must remain in an area of at least 300 SFPs.  IF the area is less active, the dragon suffers 1 point of damage for every 10 SFP under 300.  If they reach less than 10 hit points, they fall into a deep slumber until they are moved or the seismic energy increases.

In the rare places where beljuril dragons live, they lay and bury their eggs deep in the earth.  Each dragon is born at the same time as a new volcano.  The hatchling must survive heat and pressure greater than experienced later in life, so it begins life with an unsually strong AC score.  From youth to young adulthood, the beljuril dragon experiences growth spurts in which it sheds some of its protective scales, and its AC worsens.  As it matures, the dragon regains its protection as new scales grow and harden.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #265 (1999).

*Note:  SFP’s are Seismic Force Points, something unique to an alternate system presented in that article.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

Size is between emerald and sapphire.

Breath weapon progression does not seem to follow any other dragon’s pattern.

Spell resistance matches topaz.

Wizard spellcasting is closest to topaz or crystal.

AC resembles crystal beginning at age 4.  Prior to that, it is nonstandard.

Psionic ability is closest to sapphire.


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## RavinRay (Sep 19, 2008)

Oh joy! A psionic dragon!  And named after a gem, no less. (Beljuril is a gemstone in the Forgotten Realms AFAIK.)

Since the 2e emerald and sapphire dragons are the 2nd and 3rd largest gem dragons, in the 3e hierarchy it would be between the amethyst and emerald. (Bruce really mixed up the gem dragon hierarchy from 2e to 3e.)

This breath weapon is unique, it shares some similarities with the amethyst dragon's explosive gem attack (or the 2e lozenge) that seems to transform some types of energy to another (there's a power we can refer to for that effect).

The wizard spellcasting levels (or psion levels if we're going to make this solely psionic) of the topaz and crystal were the two weakest in 2e, but now topaz is on par with emerald and sapphire while amethyst and crystal are weaker.

I think we can express SFP in 3e terms as non-lethal vibratory damage, like the non-lethal damage of the _stomp_ power.


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

RavinRay said:


> Oh joy! A psionic dragon!  And named after a gem, no less. (Beljuril is a gemstone in the Forgotten Realms AFAIK.)




I had a feeling you'd be pleased.  

It appears to be a true gem dragon, based on:

"Adults are 50% likely to speak the language common to all gem dragons."

"Like other gem dragons, beljurils have psionic ability."



RavinRay said:


> Since the 2e emerald and sapphire dragons are the 2nd and 3rd largest gem dragons, in the 3e hierarchy it would be between the amethyst and emerald. (Bruce really mixed up the gem dragon hierarchy from 2e to 3e.)




Itneresting...he sure did!



RavinRay said:


> I think we can express SFP in 3e terms as non-lethal vibratory damage, like the non-lethal damage of the _stomp_ power.




The main purpose of the SFPs appears to be to buildup to eventual earthquakes/volcanic eruptions.  I like your idea, though, and perhaps we could couple the nonlethal damage with a chance of a localized earthquake, maybe increasing with repeated use?


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## RavinRay (Sep 19, 2008)

This dragon really has a unique metabolism, it seems that it has something like _energy adaptation_ that enables its _draconis fundamentum_ to convert seismic vibratory energy into metabolic energy, however in game terms SFP really is. I wonder if it gains a boost in hp if caught in the effect of _earthquake, stomp, earthbolt,_ and similar effects.


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## RavinRay (Sep 21, 2008)

Looking at the 3e amethyst and emerald dragons, they have identical size, hd, Str, and Con progressions, while amethyst has Dex 12 (really should be Dex 10 in 3.5) and emerald has Dex 10 througout. So the beljuril dragon ought to match them in these stats.

In 2e the topaz dragon spell resistance is 2nd weakest; in 3e it's the amethyst dragon with the 2nd weakest spell/power resistance.

At first I thought the AC values from hatchling to young might be typos and could be +3 +2 +1 progressively; then reading the fluff about its growth sequence, I understood why. This is somewhat reminiscent of the salamander's growth from larva to average to noble wherein its AC worsens right after it sheds its old skin and its scales are soft for a week, as written in the Ecology of the Salamander in _Dragon_ #314.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2008)

So physical stats matching amethyst and emerald, mental stats maybe matching amethyst?  Spellcasting/psionics matching amethyst?


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

Added to Homebrews using the Amethyst for the blueprint.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2008)

Shall we work on the psionics?


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Sounds good.  Manifester level like amethyst?  Probably kineticist, maybe egoist?


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## RavinRay (Oct 1, 2008)

Amethyst/crystal manifesting progression (1-17).

The breath weapon has a strong psychokinesis flavor; OTOH the way it transduces seismic energy into hit points reeks of psychometabolism. I'm slightly inclined towards the former.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Maybe we should go with kineticist but give expanded knowledge for psychometabolism as a bonus feat?  Or something?


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## RavinRay (Oct 2, 2008)

Well, this is a non-standard gem dragon with _two_ breath weapons (though the 3e amethyst dragon has a second breath weapon of sorts with that explosive crystalline lozenge), no 2e SLA's to convert into 3e PLA's, and an unusual metabolism so giving it limited access to a second discipline doesn't seem out of place. One way to do so aside from bonus feats is to give it something similar to the erudite's ability to add discipline (psychometabolism only) powers to its repertoire. The mechanics need not be identical to the erudite's ability as worded in _Dragon_ #319 and _Complete Psionic_. It's available on the April 2006 Preview page of WotC's D&D website:


			
				Mat Smith said:
			
		

> *ADDING POWERS TO AN ERUDITE'S REPERTOIRE*​ In addition to learning new powers for gaining a level like other psionic classes, erudites can add new powers to their repertoires through several other methods. Powers Gained at a New Level: Erudites and other psionic characters perform a certain amount of personal meditation between adventures in an attempt to unlock latent mental abilities. Each time a psionic character attains a new level, he learns additional powers according to his class schedule.
> ​ An erudite learns two powers of his choice to add to his repertoire in this fashion. These represent powers unlocked through study, practice, and the accumulation of psionic lore. The two free powers must be of levels the erudite can manifest, and they cannot be from a select discipline list.
> ​ _Exception: _If a character with erudite levels gains at least as many levels in another psionic class as he has in his erudite class, he permanently loses the ability to add additional powers (above and beyond the two gained at each new erudite level) to his repertoire of powers known.
> ​ *Learning Discipline Powers: *An erudite can learn discipline powers only by directly learning a power from another's repertoire, learning it from a power stone, or taking the Expanded Knowledge feat (_EPH _46). In any case, an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest.
> ...


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

Yeah, not sure I like that mechanic for a natively psionic dragon.  Maybe gets 1 bonus power from psychometabolism for every 2 or three psychokinesis powers it gets or something?


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

That could work.

Thoughts for the psi-like abilities?


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

You know, I guess my suggestion is like giving it Expanded Knowledge a lot as a bonus feat...



> Common Powers
> Psychokinesis—Sciences: Molecular rearrangement, telekinesis. Devotions: Control flames, control wind, inertial barrier, molecular agitation, molecular manipulation.
> Psychometabolism—Sciences: Energy containment, metamorphosis. Devotions: Cell adjustment, chemical stimulation, lend health, suspend animation.



Are there a few things on that list that survived to 3.5 that we could pick as PLAs?


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

Molecular rearrangement - ? 
telekinesis = telekinetic force
Control flames = same
control wind = control air
inertial barrier=same
molecular agitation = matter agitation
molecular manipulation = matter manipulation 

Energy containment = Energy Adaptation
metamorphosis = same
Cell adjustment = body adjustment
chemical stimulation = dissolving touch
lend health = empathic transfer
suspend animation = suspend life


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## RavinRay (Oct 3, 2008)

The way its 2E stats were written it seems that list would correspond to "typical powers known" instead of psi-like abilities. But yeah we can pick some to convert into PLA's. I'm veering away from _telekinetic force_ and _body adjustment_ because the amethyst dragon has those already.

Here's a possible list:

adult: _control flames_ (1st level)
old: _body adjustment_ or _dissolving touch_ (2nd level)
ancient: _inertial barrier_ (4th level) or _suspend life_ (6th level)
great wyrm: _matter manipulation_ (8th level)


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Excellent list!

I think I prefer dissolving touch to body adjustment.

I'm torn between inertial barrier and suspend life.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

I like dissolving touch, too.  Somehow it seems like it's probably under-utilized, at least with monsters.

Inertial barrier is more useful in combat, but suspend life has a really wonderful draconic feel.  I'd go with suspend life, I think.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

Updated.

Earth and Fire subtypes?

Burrow 20 ft. like an amethyst?



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> This dragon really has a unique metabolism, it seems that it has something like energy adaptation that enables its draconis fundamentum to convert seismic vibratory energy into metabolic energy, however in game terms SFP really is. I wonder if it gains a boost in hp if caught in the effect of earthquake, stomp, earthbolt, and similar effects.




This might be a nice juvenile ability, since it lacks one (and most other gem dragons possess one).



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> You know, I guess my suggestion is like giving it Expanded Knowledge a lot as a bonus feat...




Maybe at every third level, it gains Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat, but may only select from psychometabolism discipline?


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2008)

All that sounds good, though the thing about boosting hp when in "seismic" spells will require DM adjudication.  We should try to list all the core effects that will do that.


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## RavinRay (Oct 15, 2008)

Here's a rough and partial draft for its metabolism, which we need to re-word.

*Seismic metabolism (Su):* Beljuril dragons derive sustenance from seismic energy, and they must stay in a seismically active environment to remain healthy. They don’t actually consume gems and minerals, but surround themselves with them by filtering the seismic energy need to survive through the crystalline structures of the stones. Beljuril dragons are surrounded by an effect similar to _energy adaptation_, except that it extends to a range of x feet (per age category of the dragon?) and it assimilates only effects from _earthquake, stomp,_ and other earth-based effects, as well as fire effects directly related to earth such as lava flows. Fire from other sources is not assimilated. Any earth-based effect that deals damage heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the dragon to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points.

I based the last part on the golems' abilities to heal damage from certain attacks.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

Seems pretty reasonable, but we might want to be clear that we don't mean spels with the earth descriptor exclusively.

I kind of like a range of 10 ft per age category.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

That looks great, and I agree with 10 feet per age category.

Lets revisit the breath weapon next...



> Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: Beljuril dragons have two breath weapons. One is a burst of energy, which discharges as a beautiful green, violet, or blue lozenge with sparkles of flashing light. This blast absorbs heat, light, and vibratory energy at random and releases 25 SFPs. The charge is silent, cold, and generates a powerful electrical discharge. The blast sometimes (10% chance) produces 1d6 fist-sized beljuril gems worth 5,000 gp, base value. The dragons can use their breath weapon only in a seismically active environment. Their other breath weapon is a gout of magma. (Occasionally, this magma is of an unusual quality, with game effects different from that given for lava). Like other gem dragons, beljurils have psionic ability.






			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> This breath weapon is unique, it shares some similarities with the amethyst dragon's explosive gem attack (or the 2e lozenge) that seems to transform some types of energy to another (there's a power we can refer to for that effect).






			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> I think we can express SFP in 3e terms as non-lethal vibratory damage, like the non-lethal damage of the stomp power.






			
				Me said:
			
		

> The main purpose of the SFPs appears to be to buildup to eventual earthquakes/volcanic eruptions. I like your idea, though, and perhaps we could couple the nonlethal damage with a chance of a localized earthquake, maybe increasing with repeated use?


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## RavinRay (Oct 16, 2008)

First thing, do we keep both as breath weapons, or do we do it like the amethyst dragon which has the force breath weapon and the _explosive gem_ PLA? Going the latter route makes it resemble the amethyst. It's like the case between the emerald and sapphire dragons, both LN dragons with sonic breath weapons, except that the emerald's also causes deafness while the sapphire's causes panic.

Either case, the lava breath weapon (cone or line) can either do half fire and half bludgeoning damage; or it does fire damage but clings to a target for an extra number of rounds to do extra damage similar to either the orange or yellow dragons' breath weapons. I guess it depends on how viscous we want the lava to be.

Here's how I converted the amethyst dragon's explosive gem:


> *Explosive Gem (Ps):* Once per day, an amethyst dragon can spit a violet, crystalline lozenge up to 75 feet away with pinpoint accuracy. This is similar to _hail of crystals_, except that it is manifested as if it was a 3rd-level power with a range equal to the dragon’s breath weapon. The gem explodes on impact, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage per manifester level to all creatures within a 20-foot radius. A target that succeeds at a Reflex saving throw takes half damage.




How's this for the lozenge?

A beljuril dragon can spit a green, violet, or blue crystalline lozenge with pinpoint accuracy. This lozenge converts fire, light, or vibratory (sonic?) energy into electricity (in a manner similar to _energy conversion_). It disintegrates on impact, but 10% of the time it breaks apart into 1d6 fist-sized beljuril gems worth 5,000 gp base value. (Beljuril gems are described in _Magic of Faerûn_.)

Fized range like the 75 feet of the amethyst dragon's lozenge, or same range as a line-shaped breath weapon?


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

I like the lozenge.  We should probably give it a #/day limitation (1 or 3?) and a power level, like you did in the amethyst case.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

I like it too, and think I'd prefer the "clinging" damage like typical magma for the breath weapon.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Shade said:


> I like it too, and think I'd prefer the "clinging" damage like typical magma for the breath weapon.



Sounds good to me.  Any precedents for line vs cones of magma?  If not, cone seems kind of sensible, but I could go for a line if there are already a lot of dragons with magma cones.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

Most of the gem dragons have cones, so I could see following with cones.  Unless you want to be different.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

I'll defer to RavinRay.  This is really his baby, I think.


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## RavinRay (Oct 17, 2008)

For comparison, amethyst has line of force, crystal has cone of light, emerald and sapphire have cone of sound, topaz has cone of dehydration, and obsidian (WotC website) has cone of fire. Other fire-breathing dragons have cones either (gold, red, t'ien lung) or lines (brass). The only other volcano-themed dragon I know is the pyroclastic dragon of Gehenna with a cone of ash (half fire/half sonic). Let's go with cone.

For increased duration, the Styx dragon's acid breath stays for 3 rounds (1/2 damage 2nd round, 1/4 damage 3rd round), so we can use this as well because the lava continues to burn for 2 more rounds.

So the lozenge is a spit projectile then, and not a true breath weapon.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

Those sound like fine ideas.  Since we're doing lingering damage (1/2 and then 1/4 on succeeding rounds), maybe we should go with a slowish breath weapon damage progression?

Did we want to split the initial breath weapon damage to 1/2 fire, 1/2 bludgeoning or just go with pure fire?


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

freyar said:


> Did we want to split the initial breath weapon damage to 1/2 fire, 1/2 bludgeoning or just go with pure fire?




Let's stick with pure fire, to better match true D&D lava.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Updated.

A few more issues to resolve on the exploding gem...



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Fized range like the 75 feet of the amethyst dragon's lozenge, or same range as a line-shaped breath weapon?






			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I like the lozenge. We should probably give it a #/day limitation (1 or 3?) and a power level, like you did in the amethyst case.




Also, should it be gained at Adult age category like the amethyst?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

If RavinRay agrees, I think we should do this basically like the amethyst, though #/day is up in the air for me.


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## RavinRay (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm ok with the 75 foot range.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

So...

Explosive Gem (Ps): Once(?) per day, a beljuril dragon can spit a green, violet, or blue crystalline lozenge up to 75 feet away with pinpoint accuracy. This lozenge converts fire, light, or sonic energy into electricity (in a manner similar to energy conversion, except that it is manifested as if it was a x-level power). It disintegrates on impact, but 10% of the time it breaks apart into 1d6 fist-sized beljuril gems worth 5,000 gp base value. (Beljuril gems are described in Magic of Faerûn.)


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Added flavor text.


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## RavinRay (Oct 26, 2008)

Summing up this dragon, it's like a mish-mash of the amethyst and obsidian (Legend of Sardior bestiary) dragons, so giving it both Earth and Fire elemental subtypes is cool. In fact, I'd place it rather than the obsidian dragon as the aberrant gem dragon of Faerûn, inasmuch as the Realms have three aberrant metallics (mercury, steel, and the unofficially converted electrum), and two aberrant chromatics (brown and the Raurin/Mulhorandi yellow); and beljuril gems are found in Faerûn. The amethyst inspiration is slightly stronger than the obsidian, since it's a kineticist specialist.

I think we can add rules similar to starvation if the dragon doesn't convert energy into hit points.*Seismic Metabolism (Su):* Beljuril dragons derive sustenance from seismic energy, and they must stay in a seismically active environment to remain healthy. They don’t actually consume gems and minerals, but surround themselves with them by filtering the seismic energy need to survive through the crystalline structures of the stones. Beljuril dragons are surrounded by an effect similar to _energy adaptation_, except that it extends to a range of 10 feet per age category of the dragon and it assimilates only effects from _earthquake, stomp_, and other earth-based effects, as well as fire effects directly related to earth such as lava flows. Fire from other sources is not assimilated. Any earth- or fire-based effect that deals damage heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the dragon to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. A beljuril dragon that does not convert energy into hit points equal to twice its age catergory [per day?] suffers the effects of starvation as described on page…​We can give the explosive gem at adult age like the amethyst:*Explosive Gem (Ps):* Once per day, an adult or older beljuril dragon can spit a green, violet, or blue crystalline lozenge up to 75 feet away with pinpoint accuracy. This lozenge converts fire, light, or sonic energy into electricity (in a manner similar to _energy conversion_, except that it is manifested as if it was a 3rd-level power). It disintegrates on impact, dealing 1d6 electricity damage per manifester level in a 20-foot burst (Reflex save for half damage), but 10% of the time it breaks apart into 1d6 fist-sized beljuril gems worth 5,000 gp base value. (Beljuril gems are described in Magic of Faerûn.)​Finally, we just need to this footnote to the Table: Beljuril Dragon Abilities by Age.*Beljuril dragons manifest powers as if psions with Psychokinesis as their primary discipline.​


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2008)

Sounds good!


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

Agreed.  Updated.

Skills: x, x, and x are considered class skills for beljuril dragons.


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2008)

We've got an extra "A" in the "Expanded Knowledge" entry.

How about Autohypnosis, Psicraft, and maybe Bluff or Swim?


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2008)

We've got an extra "A" in the "Expanded Knowledge" entry.

How about Autohypnosis, Psicraft, and maybe Bluff or Swim?


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2008)

Updated.

What's left besides italicized description?


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

I think that's it.


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## RavinRay (Nov 14, 2008)

Ditto.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Added italicized description.

All done?


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2008)

Looks done.  The Young Adult line in the Beljuril Dragons by Age table is a little wonky, but that probably doesn't matter for the CC database (or does it?).


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## RavinRay (Dec 2, 2008)

That's about it, I guess. The beljuril dragon is ready to make its 3.5e debut.


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

*Dragon, Mithril*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Special
INTElliGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 (2-3)
ARMOR CLASS: 0 (base)
MOVEMENT: 9, Fl 36 (B)
HIT DICE: 12 (base) 
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 + special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/3-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Special
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable
SIZE: G (40' base)
MORALE: Fanatic (17 base)
XP VALUE: Variable

Mithril dragons are graceful, slender creatures with long necks - which accounts for much of their relatively great body length - and comparatively small heads. They have tiny eyes, which are protected from the extreme sunlight by semi-reflectant silver corneas. Their scales are highly reflectant, presumably to minimize heat absorption. Their color, from hatching to old age, remains a fine burnished silver, similar to the metal which gives them their name.

Mithril dragons have all of the standard dragon characteristics as described in the _Monstrous Compendium_. Unlike other dragons, however, they seem to have no interest in treasure as such. Their sole goal in life seems to be to enjoy themselves by soaring in the great thermals that rise from the semi-molten surface of Radole. In personality, they seem more akin to the faerie dragon than to any other draconic species.

*Combat*: Mithril dragons never seek out combat, unless it looks as though an enemy is going to harm their eggs or their mates. Normally, they use their incredible speed and maneuverability to stay well out of harm's way. (They're not above taunting or teasing a prospective enemy, however.) If forced into combat, though, they are formidable opponents. They use their magic and innate abilities to maximum effect, and their breath weapon is absolutely lethal. Their favorite tactic is to swoop down on an enemy from out of the sun, make their most effective attack, then soar off again before the enemy can respond. A mithril dragon's greatest fear is of losing the ability to fly. For this reason, they are most likely to break off combat if they believe their opponent is able to strip them of this facility.

Age, Body Lgt., Tail Lgt., AC, Breath Weapon, Wizard Spells, MR, XP
1, 3'-6', 2'- 7', 3, 2d8+1, nil, nil, 1,400
2, 6'-14', 7'-16', 2, 4d8+2, nil, nil, 2,000
3, 14'-22', 16'-25', 1, 6d8+3, nil, 5%, 4,000
4, 22'-31', 25'-34', 0, 8d8+4, 1, 10%, 7,000
5, 31'-41', 34'-43', -1, lOd8+5, 2, 15%, 9,000
6, 41'-52', 43'-52', -2, 12d8+6, 3, 20%, 10,000
7, 52'-64', 52'-61', -3, 14d8+7, 3/1, 25%, 11,000
8, 64'-77', 61'-70', -4, 16d8+8, 3/2, 30%, 12,000
9, 77'-91', 70'-79', -5, 18d8+9, 3/2/1, 35%, 14,000
10, 91'-105', 79'-90', -6, 20d8+10, 3/3/1, 45%, 15,000
11, 105'-121', 90'-99', -7, 22d8+11, 3/3/2, 55%, 17,000
12, 121'-138', 99'-108', -8, 24d8+12, 3/3/3, 70%, 19,000

*Breath Weapon/Special Abilities*: A mithril dragon's breath weapon is a beam of blinding silver light, 100' long and 10' in diameter. This inflicts damage through a combination of heat and other forms of radiation. There is no known form of immunity that protects against this weapon. Targets receive a saving throw for half damage. Whether or not they succeed in this saving throw, targets must make a second save vs. breath weapon or be blinded for 1d6 hours. Mithril dragons cast their spells and use their magical abilities at 8th level, plus their combat modifier.

At birth, mithril dragons are immune to fire and heat. As they age, they gain the following additional powers: Very young: tongues, continuous duration; Young: forget three times per day; Juvenile: blink twice per day; Adult: conjure (fire) elemental once per day; Old: telekinesis three times per day; Very old: disintegrate once per day; Venerable: power word stun twice per day.

*Habitat/Society*: No one has ever seen an unwounded mithril dragon on the ground, and some sages believe that the creatures spend their entire lives soaring through the blistering air. If this is so, how they mate and produce offspring is a mystery. There are some who believe that mating takes place on the wing, and that the male carries the single egg on his back until it hatches. This theory is totally unsubstantiated, however.

Mithril dragons are usually solitary creatures, soaring alone in the fierce thermals. The dragons do sometimes gather into small groups, however, and play intricate games involving aerobatics and speed runs, combined with intricate wordplay and pun-making. The creatures have a well-developed sense of humor, and the best way to get on the good side of a mithril dragon is to tell it a joke it hasn't heard before.

Some mithril dragons have a mild curiosity about the inhabitants of the Ribbon on Radole. They never actually encroach on the temperate band - there are no thermals and updrafts to play in there, after all- but sometimes come close enough to watch the comings and goings of spelljamming vessels. The creatures have no knowledge of or interest in Darkside, and consider it a nasty place not worth visiting.

The dragons have no interest in treasure, and so collect none.

*Ecology*: Mithril dragons are the top of the food chain, feeding mainly on the great beetles, such as the steelback. Sometimes groups of younger mithril dragons will cooperate in frying a steelback with their breath weapons, then swooping down on the carcass and tearing off bitesized chunks until their hunger is satiated. The dragons eat surprisingly little for such massive creatures, giving some sages to think that the mithrils supplement their metabolic economy with solar energy they absorb through their skin.

Originally appeared in Practical Planetology (1991).


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

HD equals brass
Body size equals brass
Int equals bronze
Magic resistance varies (starts like brass, gets as good as gold at great wyrm)
Breath weapon progresses like bronze
Spellcasting progression follows blue
AC progression matches green


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Those progressions sound reasonable.  Follow bronze for mental stats; want to follow brass for physical?  SR maybe at a compromise between brass and gold (silver?) or make up something new?

Interesting: another neutral metallic.


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## RavinRay (Dec 30, 2008)

If you guys are willing, I can come up with a formula for the spell resistance that combines the lower values of the brass with the higher values of the gold (statistical regression—that's the nerd in me).

This one's even more strongly neutral aligned than the steel, because at least the steel can still be LG. Might favor Aasterinian or Hlal more than Bahamut.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

RavinRay said:


> If you guys are willing, I can come up with a formula for the spell resistance that combines the lower values of the brass with the higher values of the gold (statistical regression—that's the nerd in me).




Sure!  Have at it.


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

Go for it!

Maybe steel dragons should be considered ferrous.   It's too bad these guys are chaotic, because I can't see calling mithril a rock.


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## RavinRay (Jan 1, 2009)

Ok, here's the brass SR:

- - - - 18 20 22 24 25 27 28 30

Here's a combined brass-gold SR with brass values for the younger age categories gradually giving way to the gold values for the older:

- - - - 18 20 23 25 27 29 31 33

And here's the gold SR:

- - - - 21 23 25 27 28 30 31 33

And yes, I did use an Excel spreadsheet to arrive at these values. 

Oh, so you're thinking this could have been one of the chaotic rock dragons that are opposed to the lawful ferrous dragons. Yeah, coulda, though there are mono-mineralic rocks. And steel is after all an alloy of iron with carbon, so it could be an aberrant ferrous dragon/metallic dragon crossbreed that lost the metalsense ability.


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## freyar (Jan 1, 2009)

Nice progression regression there!

Yeah, but I don't see how mithril could be considered a rock.   Nice take on the steel dragon, though!


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Interesting spell resistance pattern.   I'll try to get these fellas homebrewed soon.

Yeah, I can't stretch my imagination enough to see these as rock (or even ferrrous) dragons.  

The breath weapon sounds a bit like the purple's.

Suggested subtype (if any)?   They are immune to fire, but nothing seems to indicate vulnerability to cold.  Air seems plausible.


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Air makes sense to me.

Might be fun to revise the purple's breath weapon for these, sure.  (I very happily got DCv1 for the holidays, and I especially love the yellow dragon for some reason.  Maybe the Dex progression.)


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## RavinRay (Jan 6, 2009)

Given the breath weapon, its dexterity, and chaotic alignment, the mithril sounds too similar to the mercury so giving it the air subtype should differentiate it. The t'ien lung has the air subtype but breathes fire, though it is not explicitly immune to fire or vulnerable to cold. The mercury dragon's breath weapon doesn't cause blindness (unlike the crystal's). What should the "other forms of radiation" be? Untyped energy damage? Light damage (like the crystal's) like a laser cutting through matter?


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, I don't think the mithril is screaming for an unusual Dex progression (though those are fun ).

I think I'd go with maybe 1/2 light and 1/2 untyped damage.  Sound right?


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

> A mithril dragon's breath weapon is a beam of blinding silver light, 100' long and 10' in diameter. This inflicts damage through a combination of heat and other forms of radiation. There is no known form of immunity that protects against this weapon. Targets receive a saving throw for half damage. Whether or not they succeed in this saving throw, targets must make a second save vs. breath weapon or be blinded for 1d6 hours.




Breath weapon: Line of half fire damage, half untyped damage.  Damaged creatures must make an additional Fortitude save at the breath weapon DC or be blinded for 1d6 hours.

What do you think?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

I think that will work!

Suggested replacement for the forget SLA?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jan 9, 2009)

Modify memory?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Reasonable.  Or else a unique Su that's faster and more focused (it would help if someone has the old-edition spell ).


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Forget 
(Enchantment/Charm) 
Range: 30 yds. 
Components: V, S 
Duration: Permanent 
Casting Time: 2 
Area of Effect: 1-4 creatures in a 20-ft. cube 
Saving Throw: Neg. 

By means of this spell, the spellcaster causes creatures within the area of effect to forget the events of the previous round (the one minute of time previous to the utterance of the spell). For every three levels of experience of the spellcaster, another minute of past time is forgotten. This does not negate charm, suggestion, geas, quest, or similar spells, but it is possible that the being who placed such magic upon the recipient could be forgotten. From one to four creatures can be affected, at the discretion of the caster. If only one is to be affected, the recipient saves vs. spell with a -2 penalty; if two, they save with -1 penalties; if three or four are to be affected, they save normally. All saving throws are adjusted by Wisdom. A priest's heal or restoration spell, if specially cast for this purpose, will restore the lost memories, as will a limited wish or wish, but no other means will do so.


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## RavinRay (Jan 10, 2009)

We can either give it the full-blown _modify memory_ or just one application of it, namely the "Eliminate all memory of an event the subject actually experienced. This spell cannot negate charm, geas/quest, suggestion, or similar spells." part.


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## JiCi (Jan 10, 2009)

For the breath weapon, may I suggest this ?

*Breath Weapon (Su)*: A mithral dragon has one type of breath weapon, a line of searing silver light. Creature who fail their save are blinded for 1d6 hours.

and may I suggest these as an "upgrade" ?

- Furthermore, the light can dispel any darkness spell or effect as a caster level equal the dragon's HD (or sorcerer caster level)
*_Note: I'm not sure if in the 2e edition, darkness spells could be countered by light spells and vice-versa. So please excuse my ignorance on this one._

OR

- Furthermore, any creature susceptible to silver, like lycanthropes or creatures with silver damage reduction, takes an additional +2 points of damage per age category.
*_Note: It's raw silver light. I doubt a lycanthrope could really survive this kind of attack._

Again, I'm only proposing something to suitably upgrade this dragon, not to change it completely.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

I could see potentially folding blinding into the breath weapon, but I like the half-fire, half-untyped damage.  Could see what people think about countering darkness effects, too.

For the forget SLA, let's do a limited version of modify memory.


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## RavinRay (Jan 13, 2009)

So half-fire, half-untyped damage (for which there is no immunity/resistance), and either being blinded or at the very least dazzled.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, x, and x domains as arcane spells.   Suggestions?

Skills: x, x, and x are considered class skills for mithril dragons.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

Sun and maybe Fire could fit.  

Hide, Survival, and Tumble.  Since they like to fly out of the sun to surprise opponents, we could mention that they have a bonus on Hide checks when backlit by the sun, or remind the DM to give a circumstance bonus, or something.


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## RavinRay (Jan 14, 2009)

I'd go for Sun, not so much for Fire since it already has Air. Maybe Chaos or Trickery (since it has a sense of humor like the copper dragon). Or Travel (no dragon thus far has it AFAIK) since it likes to soar among the thermals.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

I was thinking about Travel.  Let's either do Travel or Trickery as the third one.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

Let's go with Travel since it is underused by dragonkind.  



> Adult: conjure (fire) elemental once per day;




Modify one of these abilities from the brown dragon?

Summon Huge Air Elemental (Sp): Once per day, an old brown dragon can cast summon nature's ally VII to summon one Huge air elemental, 1d3 Large air elementals, or 1d4+1 air elementals of smaller size.

Summon Greater Air Elemental (Sp): Once per day, an ancient brown dragon can cast summon nature's ally VIII to summon one greater air elemental, 1d3 Huge air elementals, or 1d4+1 air elementals of smaller size.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

That sounds right.  Since it starts at adult, should it start with Large elementals?


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## RavinRay (Jan 15, 2009)

Yes, a Large elemental at adult is not overkill.


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2009)

Ok, then:

Summon Large Fire Elemental (Sp): Once per day, an adult mithril dragon can cast summon nature's ally V to summon one Large fire elemental, 1d3 Medium fire elementals, or 1d4+1 air elementals of smaller size.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

Looks good!

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Environment: whatever the planet is in the original text?


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## RavinRay (Jan 16, 2009)

Climate/Terrain says any but from their love of thermals, I'd say they prefer semi-arid and coastal regions because that's where thermals and updrafts are more prevalent. Of course, it would suit them if there are mesas or tall seaside cliffs or where they can lair.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Good call, that way we won't limit them to spelljammer.  Warm hills and mountains maybe?


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

Updated (with more flavor text too).

Organization: Solitary, pair, or group (3-8)?


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2009)

Change group to something like flight, and I think we're good!


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## RavinRay (Jan 24, 2009)

A flight of mithril dragons, doing aerial acrobatics… ah, that would be a sight to behold.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

Indeed!


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## JiCi (Jan 28, 2009)

Huh... is it written somewhere why mithril dragons are not related to metallic dragons ? It's kinda odd since the planar Adamantine dragon is NG, but that the Mithril dragon is CN.


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## RavinRay (Jan 28, 2009)

It doesn't say anywhere that they are or aren't related to metallics, but if they are I'd say that they started out as CG with CN tendencies (like how brass dragons were depicted in 1E), and then strayed to the latter alignment.

Considering that the CG/CN song dragon looks very much like a metallic gray-colored copper dragon, plus the LG/LN steel dragon, I wouldn't be surprised to see non-good metallic dragons, as long as they're not evil.


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## JiCi (Jan 28, 2009)

Oh... that makes sense. Thanks.


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## JiCi (Feb 1, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> It doesn't say anywhere that they are or aren't related to metallics, but if they are I'd say that they started out as CG with CN tendencies (like how brass dragons were depicted in 1E), and then strayed to the latter alignment.
> 
> Considering that the CG/CN song dragon looks very much like a metallic gray-colored copper dragon, plus the LG/LN steel dragon, I wouldn't be surprised to see non-good metallic dragons, as long as they're not evil.



Wait, hold on, I may have a theory on this one, from the 2e Edition:

- Brown dragons (from Faerun) were not considered true chromatics because they were wingless. (_That hasn't changed in 3.0/3.5, but it changed in 4E when they decided to scrap the Faerunian Brown Dragon and to replace it with the Sand Dragon from the 3.5 book "Sandstorm"_)

- Steel dragons were not considered true metallics because they only had one breath weapon instead of 2.

The Mithril Dragon has a single breath weapon, so even if it's Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies and flat out Chaotic Good, it isn't a real metallic since it lacks a second breath.


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## RavinRay (Feb 6, 2009)

Which really confuses things with the mercury and steel dragons, because in _Dragons of Faerûn_ they're now classified as metallic dragons; and while the steel dragon now has a 2nd breath weapon, the mercury still has just one. That's why IMO I consider them (the mercury) the equivalent of the "lost" chromatic dragons (orange, purple, yellow); a subcategory of metallic dragons that have different sets of abilities. So, we can consider the mithril a dragon that has strayed so far from its metallic lineage that it's no longer metallic, or a very aberrant metallic. Ah, the choices.


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## JiCi (Feb 7, 2009)

Indeed...

So... what's the dragon in line ? How about the Moon, Stellar and Sun dragons from Spelljammer ?


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## JiCi (Feb 10, 2009)

I can see the Moon dragon going well with Eberron... perhaps as a variant, we can include additional info.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Since it's Feybruary, let's work on these fellas.  

*Faerie Drake*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 6”/24”//9” (MC: A)
HIT DICE: See Table 5
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: S, T, U
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2/1-2/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Minor breath weapon,
minor spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Magic resistance,
invisibility minor defensive powers,
minor spell use, spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See Table 5
INTELLIGENCE: Low to average
ALIGNMENT: Neutral, chaotic neutral
SIZE: S (1½-2’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 80%
Magic use: 100%
Sleeping: 30%
LEVEL/XP VALUE: Up to V/365 + 5 per hit point (maximum age and abilities)

The faerie drake is a close relative of the faerie dragon. It is slightly larger than its cousin but has its own distinctive appearance and abilities. Faerie drakes look like miniature dragons with striped or spotted wings, prehensile tails, and a metallic sheen to their wings and scales. Females have wing tips with a shade of color lighter than their body color. Males have wing tips darker than their body color and also have a stronger metallic sheen than females. The underbelly scale color denotes a faerie dragon’s age (see Table 5).

Faerie drakes have innate spell abilities that slowly increase as they grow older. Only drakes of young adult and older ages have offensive spells. Most prefer spells useful in their everyday lives (as selected by the DM); such spells are taught by the older members of a faerie drake group.

Faerie drakes have been known to associate with and spy upon wizards and druids, especially while the latter learn and cast their spells. It is conjectured that watching such activities enables faerie drakes to learn spells other than those they acquire early in life.

A faerie drake’s body color reveals what sort of breath weapon and attack immunity it possesses (see Table 6). The bronze faerie drake’s repulsion gas causes opponents to move away from the faerie drake for six rounds unless they successfully make saving throws vs. dragon breath.  The copper faerie drake's slow venom causes victims to move and attack at one-half normal unless they make their saving throw vs. dragon breath; this effect lasts for six rounds. All other attacks do damage equal to the drake's hit points, or half that if a save vs. dragon breath is successfully made.

The color of a faerie dragon's wing markings is related to its innate magical defense, as shown in Table 7. These magical defenses often mimic wizard or druid spells, but they come into effect at will. Like faerie dragons, faerie drakes can become invisible at will. They also have 120' infravision and very keen senses of smell. These drakes are very fond of swimming, diving, and fishing; one can stay submerged and active for up to three turns, or twice that if inactive. While submerged, they move through the water with great speed and maneuverability.  They are even more at home in the air, being able to hover and dart about. Faerie drakes are omnivores and enjoy fish, berries, and small-animal meat. They usually mate for life. If encountered in a lair, there is a 10% chance that 1-4 faerie drake eggs are concealed in the nest.

*Table 5*
Faerie Dragons' Ages and Spells
Belly color Magic resistance Age Hit dice Mage spells (C 1 2 3) Druid spells (C 1 2 3) 
Red 20% Very young 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Red-orange 25% Young 2 + 2 1 0 0 0 4 0 0 0
Orange 30% Sub-adult 2 + 4 4 0 0 0 4 1 0 0
Yellow 35% Young adult 3 4 1 0 0 4 2 1 0
Green 40% Adult 3 + 2 4 2 0 0 4 3 2 0
Blue-green 45% Old 3 + 4 4 3 1 0 5 4 2 0
Blue 55% Very old 4 5 4 2 0 5 5 3 0
Violet 60% Ancient 5 5 5 2 1 5 5 4 1

*Table 6*
Faerie Drakes' Attacks and Immunities
Body color / Breath weapon's type and frequency / Breath weapon's shape and dimensions / Attack type immunity
Black = Acid, 3 X /day, Line shaped, ½” X 40’, Acid
Blue = Electric bolt, 3 X /day, Line shaped, 1” X 30’, Electricity
Brass = Fear gas, 4 X /day, Cloud shaped, see below, Poison
Bronze = Repulsion gas, 5 X /day, Cloud shaped, see below, Electricity
Copper = Slow venom, 5 X /day, Line shaped, ½” X 40’, Acid
Gold = Fire or chlorine gas, 3 X /day, Cone shaped, see below, Fire and poison
Green = Chlorine gas, 3 X /day, Cone shaped, see below, Poison
Red = Fire, 3 X /day, Cone shaped, see below, Fire
Silver = Frost cone, 3 X /day, Cone shaped, see below, Cold
White = Paralyzing gas, 3 X /day, Cloud shaped, see below, Cold

Breath weapon notes:
_Line shaped:_ This breath weapon starts at the creature’s mouth and stretches out toward the target in a straight line. Each type of this breath weapon has its own diameter and range as shown. Diameters are given in real inches.
_Cloud shaped:_ This breath weapon billows forth from the drake’s mouth to form a 5’ X 5’ cloud, 2’ high, around its target.
_Cone shaped:_ This breath weapon begins at the drake’s mouth (here, the cloud is ¼” in diameter) and spreads out to 3’ wide at its end. The cone-shaped cloud is 8’ long.

*Table 7*
Faerie Drakes' Innate Defenses
Wing markings / Special powers / Duration or level of abilities
Black Obscurement, 3 X /day As per druid spell at 5th level of ability
Blue Blink, 3 X /day As per mage spell at 5th level of ability
Brass Mirror image, 3 X /day As per mage spell at 5th level of ability
Bronze Scare, 3 X /day As per mage spell at 5th level of ability
Copper Entangle, 4 X /day As per druid spell at 5th level of ability
Gold Polymorph self, 2 X /day As per mage spell at 7th level of ability
Green Regeneration, perm. 1 hp/six turns
Red Haste, 1 X /day As per mage spell at 7th level of ability
Silver Gaseous form, 2 X /day As per potion, with a duration equal to the faerie dragons' hit dice in turns
White Control temperature, 3 X /day As per druid spell at 6th level of ability

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #146 (1989).


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2009)

Oooh, a true faerie dragon, cool!  And several varieties rolled into one, nice.


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## JiCi (Feb 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> Since it's Feybruary, let's work on these fellas.



Oh, you guys follow a theme. Very well then ! Let's go !

Boy, this this one looks complicated, might as well take the faerie dragon stats from the Draconomicon and starts from there...


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## RavinRay (Feb 18, 2009)

Comparing it to the (nerfed) faerie dragon in _Draconomicon_ is going to be interesting because now we're gonna have two fey-themed dragons, one lesser and one true. And ironically the latter is called _drake_ and not _dragon_.

An advanced 3.5 faerie dragon can reach Huge size according to _Draconomicon_. We'll have to decide how large faerie drakes can get.

With the variable body color, maybe we can use a d10, d20 or d100 to determine which variety will be encountered, with a DM's approval.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Odd, the ToH faerie dragon is probably more faithful to the original than the Draconomicon version, but the Draconomicon one may be more useful here.  Huh.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

It looks like they have full 1e dragon age categories.

Size is a bit trickier, as nothing seems to indicate that they do indeed grow larger.  Since the shadow drakes and demon drakes in the same article do list size by age category, I'm guessing that faerie drakes remain the same size.  The other drakes only grow to about 3 feet, anyway, so it seems the intent is for them to remain miniature dragons.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Sounds like you're right.  Faerie dragons/drakes have really had a lot of different viewpoints over the years, haven't they?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Indeed.  And oddly, this article was geared towards making them familiars.  Imagine having an ancient dragon as a familiar!   I'd think the wizard would be the more likely "familiar" in that arrangement.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

You could make it an extension of the Draconomicon rules for dragon PCs: how to get a human familiar.   Actually, I guess the dragonkith template is kind of like that.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

Shall we keep 'em Tiny across age categories, then?

If so, physical ability scores can remain constant.   

We'll need to figure out mental scores.  Since they cast both mage spells and druid spells, I'd recommend we go with the typical dragon sorceror casting, allowing spells from the druid list to be cast as arcane spells.   Following that route, we'll need Cha to be at least good enough to cast the minimum spell level granted at a given age category.

Draconomicon faerie dragon is Small, with the following ability scores:  Str 13, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 16.

Tome of Horrors revised has them Tiny with Str 11, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 16.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

Well, I kind of like the higher Dex, so what about Str 11, Dex 18, Con 13, and some progression for all mental stats?


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## RavinRay (Feb 21, 2009)

For comparison purposes, the true dragons with the slowest size progression are the steel dragon of Waterdeep and the dzalmus of the Endless Waste east of Faerûn, which go from Small to Huge.

Normally Int and Cha progress identically with Wis two points behind, so we can keep that. With the high Dex should flight maneuverability be high?


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

I agree with the suggested physical scores, mental progression, and maneuverability.

Shall we use the Tome of Horrors faerie dragon's mental stats (Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 16) as a mid-range number, and add or subtract two each way from there?


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

Maybe put those on the low end of mid-range, but that sounds good.  Should Wis then be 14?


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

How do we want to handle the caster level progression?  For simplicity's sake, I'd recommend not giving each color a different progression and instead standardizing it.

Since breath weapon damage originally equaled hit points, how about 1d6/HD, since 6.5 is average hp per die for dragons?


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## RavinRay (Feb 25, 2009)

I agree with the standard spell progression, so it's from 1st to 17th? 1d6/HD breath weapon damage sounds good to me.


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2009)

Works for me, too.

Hehe, I can just imagine a mid-level party coming across a great wyrm faerie drake and thinking "oh, a tiny dragon, no problem."   We need to make sure they get some great SLAs.


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## RavinRay (Feb 26, 2009)

Well we gotta avoid _Tasha's (Iggwilv's) Hideous Laughter_ and _Otto's Irresistible Dance_ then because they're stereotypically associated with fey humor.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Should we be concerned that the spellcasting will grow far beyond their Hit Dice?


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## RavinRay (Feb 27, 2009)

Good point there. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of the abeil queen from _Monster Manual II_, which doesn't have many hit dice but is a high-ranking druidic spellcaster.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Hmmm...as long as the gap between CR and caster level isn't too great, we may be OK.  

Still, looking at other true dragons at 12 HD or less, the caster level is usually 1st.  That's an enormous difference.

I think I'd be more comfortable if we either reduced the caster level progression, doubled the HD at each age category, or just stuck with a robust spell-like ability progression.

The more I think about it, I think I prefer the last option, as it is closest to the original flavor, and keeps them realistic at HD for their sizes.


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2009)

That seems fine to me.  Dial back the CL a little?


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## RavinRay (Mar 2, 2009)

I borrowed a copy of the original articles, and it seems that these familiar drakes, while sharing age categories with true dragons, may not be such at all. Hence, it makes it more feasible to remove sorcerer levels from them; the only family of Material Plane dragons without sorcerer or analogous levels are the lung dragons.


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## Melatuis (Mar 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> Hmmm...as long as the gap between CR and caster level isn't too great, we may be OK.
> 
> Still, looking at other true dragons at 12 HD or less, the caster level is usually 1st.  That's an enormous difference.
> 
> ...




For what it is worth I like the robust spell-like ability progression.

Keep up the good work.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

So robust SLAs, with the caster level dialed back a bit?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

Yeah, I think that sounds right.


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## RavinRay (Mar 9, 2009)

Here's a left of center suggestion. The original article says that these familiar drakes are relate to the faerie dragon, which is a true dragon with the same age categories. Now in 3.5e if the CC faerie dragon is still a true dragon that ages at the same rate as the others, should these drakes do so as well? I'm wrapping my head around the thought that a familiar drake outlives its humanoid master by centuries. So, would it be feasible to give them the same ageing rate as the rattelyr, which ages five times as faster as other true dragons? (Divide the upper year limit for each age category by 5 to get the revised upper limit). Just an idea.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2009)

Faerie dragons are not true dragons, actually.  But I could see the faster age progression.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

I like that idea alot!


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Let's work on the SLAs.  Here are the default ones for each color...



> *Table 7*
> Faerie Drakes' Innate Defenses
> Wing markings / Special powers / Duration or level of abilities
> Black Obscurement, 3 X /day As per druid spell at 5th level of ability
> ...




For the "robust SLAs" that replace spellcasting progression, do we want them to be based on color as well, or relatively static for faerie drakes in general?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

I like the idea of basing these on color, but we'd have to put in quite a lot ourselves, since there's only one listed here for each.  I dunno, maybe a base SLA progression with these added on top depending on color?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

We could use the Draconomicon's faerie dragon as a starting point...

Spell-Like Abilities: At will--dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound (DC 13); 3/day--charm monster (DC 17), entangle (DC 14), glitterdust (DC 15), invisibility (DC 15), major image (DC 16), obscuring mist; 1/day--animate objects, mind fog (DC 18), project image (DC 20), summon nature's ally IV; 1/month--commune with nature. Caster level 12th.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Good idea, though we need to be careful not to step on any particular color's "signature" SLA.  We may want to top-load this list a little more for the older age categories.

When you first posted these, I wondered if the Draconomicon conversion was influenced by these guys a little.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2009)

freyar said:


> Good idea, though we need to be careful not to step on any particular color's "signature" SLA.  We may want to top-load this list a little more for the older age categories.




Agreed.  Suggestions?


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2009)

Err, how high level do you think we should go for the SLAs?


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## RavinRay (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm willing to go as high as 6th (or even 7th) level SLAs at great wyrms. They shouldn't be on par with their metallic and chromatic counterparts. Time to check the SRD for this.


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

Brainstorming...

Wyrmling = dancing lights
Very Young = ghost sound
Young = obscuring mist
Juvenile = entangle
Young Adult = glitterdust
Adult = invisibility
Mature adult = speak with plants
Old = freedom of movement
Very Old = hallucinatory terrain 
Ancient = charm monster 
Wyrm = commune with nature
Great Wyrm = project image

Additional abilities by color...
Black = corrupt water (as black dragon)(very old?)
Blue = blink (adult?)
Brass = mirror image (adult?)
Bronze = fog cloud (ancient?)
Copper = stone shape (old?)
Gold = alternate form (as gold dragon)(wyrm?)
Green = plant growth (ancient?)
Red = haste (old?)
Silver = gaseous form (mature adult)
White = freezing fog (wyrm?)


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

I think I'm ok with that.  CL increasing with age, too?


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## Don Ventresca (Mar 25, 2009)

I know your in the middle of converting a Dragon (I love what you've done)... But I've looked through what I think is all of your thread, and you haven't converted the Purple. I would really, greatly, appreciate it!! 

Keep up the good work!!

I'll try to help as much with the conversion if you decide to do it...


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2009)

Is this a different purple than the one in Dragon Compendium?

Also, if you're looking for converted critters, they (eventually) end up here, if you didn't know.


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## Don Ventresca (Mar 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> Is this a different purple than the one in Dragon Compendium?
> 
> Also, if you're looking for converted critters, they (eventually) end up here, if you didn't know.




All I know is that I want the purple dragon that goes with the yellow, an the orange. And I know they go to the CC Website...


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## RavinRay (Mar 26, 2009)

_That_ purple dragon, along with the orange and yellow, was converted as one of the "forgotten chromatic dragons" in Paizo's _Dragon Compendium_.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

It's a bit confusing, but there are multiple versions of the purple, orange, yellow, and brown dragons.

The brown dragon in issue #38 is forest-dwelling, has a faerie fire breath weapon, an electricity breath weapon, and the ability to take the form of small animals.

The orange dragon in issue #38 has a color spray breath weapon and the chameleon-like ability to mimic a chromatic or metallic dragon.

The yellow dragon in issue #38 has blinding gas and disease cloud breath weapon and the is fond of illusions.

The purple, orange, and yellow dragons that appeared in issue #65 were updated in issue #248, eventually ending up in Dragon Compendium Vol. 1.

Gaumahavi, the "Greater Purple Dragon" from FRA 1-3 has nothing in common with other purple dragons save for its color.  We've converted that one and added it to the CC.

The brown dragon that originally appeared in Old Empires and ended up in the Monstrous Manual differs from the Dragon Magazine versions.  Its 3e stats are in Monsters of Faerun.

The yellow dragon that originally appeared in the 2e Draconomicon and ended up in the Monstrous Manual differs from the Dragon Magazine versions.  We've converted it and added to the CC as well.


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 26, 2009)

I should probably note that there is also a purple dragon in the 4e Draconomicon, but it seems to be based on the deep dragon rather than the original purple dragon.


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## RavinRay (Mar 27, 2009)

From what I've read elsewhere, the fang dragon is now the 4e gray/grey dragon, while the sand dragon of _Sandstorm_ is now the 4e brown, as the 4e _Draconomicon_ art gallery makes it obvious.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Getting back to the faerie dragon...

Updated.

Caster level for SLAs = age category, or give progression?

Stick with DR/magic or go /cold iron to make it more "faerie"?


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2009)

CL = age category, I think, since that's the same as HD.

Cold iron sounds good to me.


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## RavinRay (Mar 28, 2009)

That should limit them to 6th-level SLAs, which is a good cap. Agree on the cold iron as well.


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> That should limit them to 6th-level SLAs, which is a good cap. Agree on the cold iron as well.



Well, they could have higher level SLAs with lower CL-dependent variables.  But I wouldn't go beyond 7th level anyway, I think.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

Updated.

Shall we work on the breath weapons?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Sure!



> Table 6
> Faerie Drakes' Attacks and Immunities
> Body color / Breath weapon's type and frequency / Breath weapon's shape and dimensions / Attack type immunity
> Black = Acid, 3 X /day, Line shaped, ½” X 40’, Acid
> ...




Should we turn the clouds into cones?  Normal ranges by size (Tiny)?  Most of these seem to be based on the corresponding true dragon types, though Silver and White seem to be swapped.  Want to put those back?  And just base these on the corresponding true dragon breath weapons?


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## RavinRay (Apr 5, 2009)

I agree with using the cone (for cloud) and line sizes for tue dragons, as well as the energy type of the co-named true dragon. Brass for fire or sleep?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2009)

I'm in favor of sleep.  It just seems a better thematic fit.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2009)

So, dealing with breath weapons only, something like

Black: line of acid
Blue: line of electricity
Brass: cone of sleep gas
Bronze: cone of repulsion gas
Gold: cone of fire (or could go with weakening gas)
Green: cone of acid
Red: cone of fire
Silver: cone of paralyzing gas
White: cone of cold

Special gases as described in the corresponding metallic dragons.  I think we should probably go with weakening gas for the Gold, just to keep the thematic separation of the metallics and chromatics.  

Stick to 3/day or go to the usual 1d4 round wait time?  These are sort of true dragons, so I'd prefer the 1d4 rounds, I think.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2009)

I agree with the gas for gold (is that like Cash 4 Gold?) and the standard dragon breath weapon recharge period.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2009)

Here we go, then:

Breath Weapon (Su): Each faerie drake has one type of breath weapon determined by its color as in the table below.  The drake may use its breath weapon every 1d4 rounds.  The gas attacks of the metallic faerie drakes are the same as those of the corresponding metallic dragons.  The line breath weapons are 30 ft long, and cone breath weapons are 15 ft, as for Tiny true dragons.  The save DCs are Constitution-based.
Black: line of acid
Blue: line of electricity
Brass: cone of sleep gas
Bronze: cone of repulsion gas
Copper: cone of slow gas
Gold: cone of weakening gas
Green: cone of acid
Red: cone of fire
Silver: cone of paralyzing gas
White: cone of cold


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## RavinRay (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm good with the breath weapon list; the metallics get the secondary non-lethal breath weapons of their true dragon counterparts (slow for copper). Y'know, they'd make perfect dragonkith companions to the latter for those using the _Draconomicon_.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2009)

Oops, forgot copper!   Putting that back in and switching it to a cone, as for the true dragon.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

Lookin' good.  I'll try to update these and see where we're at before I leave for vacation.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

Updated.

I'm assuming faerie drakes should not gain frightful presence like other true dragons?

Should AC change with age?  If so, how?   Deflection bonus based on age category, or maybe Charisma?  Since they are feylike, borrow unearthly grace?

Suggested SR progression?

Suggested breath weapon damage progression?


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

No frightful presence.

Unearthly grace sounds fine, or we could have a Dex progression.

Not sure about SR.

What about 1d4 or 1d6 per age category?

Should we list that immunities are the same as corresponding true dragons?


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2009)

Do we want a replacement for frightful presence (like we've done with "awesome presence" and the like), or just drop it?

Let's go with unearthly grace rather than a Dex progression

1d6/category is probably reasonable.  I'm afraid that 1d4 would put the chromatics at a disadvantage.

We should probably list a nice table for the immunities so folks won't have to reference another creature entry.


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2009)

Let's drop frightful presence.

I'll agree with the rest (though do you really want to copy all the text from the special metallic breath weapons?).


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

They're not that long.


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## RavinRay (May 1, 2009)

SR for advanced true dragons progresses by +2, so for drakes I'd go for +1.


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

That SR progression sounds about right.


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Updated.

Give 'em a subtype based on color, or just leave it off (like the faerie dragon in Draconomicon)?

Skills: Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently are considered class skills for faerie drakes?



> These drakes are very fond of swimming, diving, and fishing; one can stay submerged and active for up to three turns, or twice that if inactive. While submerged, they move through the water with great speed and maneuverability.




Give them water breathing like many true dragons, or hold breath?


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

No subtype, I think.  

Those sound like good skills.

I think I like hold breath, but water breathing would work if anyone else has a strong opinion.


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## RavinRay (May 3, 2009)

I don't think they're that connected to the elements for the subtype, so let's leave it off. And hold breath works fine for me.


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: x

Organization: Solitary, pair, or x (3-8)

Alignment: Always neutral, usually chaotic?

Now for the hard part...

Challenge Ratings: Wyrmling x; very young x; young x; juvenile x; young adult x; adult x; mature adult x; old x; very old x; ancient x; wyrm x; great wyrm x


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

Environment: Any?
clutch?
I like the alignment.
The wyrmlings probably start at CR 1, but I have trouble seeing the great wyrms getting to CR 12.  Maybe something like 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7?  How's that look?

The wyrmling breath weapon needs to be 1d6, not 1d12.  Copy-paste demon strikes again!


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## RavinRay (May 6, 2009)

That static CR progression actually has precedent. In the Greyhawk dragon's stats in _Dragon_ magazine it had two successive age categories with the same CR; but in _Dragons of Faerûn_ and the original WotC web article where it is called the steel dragon, it doesn't have that.


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## Shade (May 7, 2009)

Updated.

I think all that remains are level adjustments.


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## freyar (May 7, 2009)

Don't ask me about that!    Probably relatively small compared to most dragons.  +1 or +2 at each age category and - after juvenile?


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## Shade (May 7, 2009)

The faerie dragon has a +2 LA, so I could maybe see going with +1 through young adult, +2 through very old, and +3 thereafter?


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## freyar (May 10, 2009)

Works for me.


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

I think so, actually!


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## JiCi (May 13, 2009)

How about adding stuff some the other dragons published by WotC and Dungeon/Dragon magasine like the other chromatics, metallics, psionics, lungs, planars and others like the Fang, Sand, Deep, Shadow and Incarnum ?


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

I'm not sure they really need it, as the original text doesn't really indicate that they are meant to mimic the other dragons.  

Feel free to expand it if you'd like, though.


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## JiCi (May 14, 2009)

I see... so according to the faerie drake's "rules", it gets:
- The true dragon's immunit(ies)
- The primary breath weapon of a single-breath true dragon OR the secondary breath weapon of a dual-breath true dragon
- The true dragon's 3rd spell-like ability obtained through aging

Well, it doesn't look that complicated now that you mention it.


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## RavinRay (May 14, 2009)

Just one thing left. Here's the ageing table for familiar drakes if they age as fast as rattelyrs (five times as fast as true dragons)


```
Category      Age (Years)
wyrmling        0 -   1
very young      2 -   3
young           4 -   5
juvenile        6 -  10
young adult    11 -  20
adult          21 -  40
mature adult   41 -  80
old            81 - 120
very old      121 - 160
ancient       151 - 200
wyrm          201 - 240
great wyrm    241+
```


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

Great, thanks!   Updated with the age categories.


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

Great, thanks!   Updated with the age categories.

Shall we work on the remaining drakes from that issue while they are still (relatively) fresh on our minds?


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## freyar (May 21, 2009)

Sounds like a good plan.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

*Demon Drake*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 9./24. (MC: A)
HIT DICE: See Table 4
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: S, Z
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and either 1 head butt or 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See Table 4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, up to major spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Invisibility, fire resistance,magic resistance, high intelligence, up to major spell use
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See Table 4
INTELLIGENCE: Average to high
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral, chaotic evil
SIZE: S (1-3. long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 90%
Magic use: 80%
Sleeping: 30%
LEVEL/XP VALUE: Up to V/400 + 5 per hit point (maximum age and abilities)

Demon drakes appear to be miniature red dragons with sharp, devilish horns on the tops of their heads and fixed, evil grins. Females have orange underbellies; males are red all over. Demon drakes usually live near or in volcanic vents, but they can also be found in caverns and many barren-landscapes. Small groups of demon drakes often associate with salamanders and lair nearby. Quicklings are known to form alliances with demon drakes and ride them into battle.

Demon drakes are naturally resistant to fires, as per rings of fire resistance. They can also use improved invisibility on themselves twice per day, being able to attack and cast spells without turning visible. 

The demon drake has two forms of cone-shaped fiery breath weapons. The cone shape of the major attack form is ¼” in diameter at the drake’s mouth, and it spreads out until it is 3’ wide at its far end. The cone of flame is 8’ long; see Table 4 for damage statistics, which are based on age (half damage is take if the victim makes a saving throw vs. breath weapons). This attack form may be made only four times per day. Demon drakes may also breath a lesser amount of fire an unlimited number of times per day. This minor breath weapon is only 4’ long and 2’ across at the far end. Demon drakes are immune to other demon drakes’ breath weapons.

Demon drakes are not really vicious in nature, but they defend their lairs with great single-mindedness. In such cases, they attack as if they had two additional hit dice, and their breath weapons do an additional 1-4 hp damage. Like the faerie dragons, demon drakes are infamous for their practical jokes and go out of their ways to plan and execute them. However, their practical jokes go beyond what might be considered funny or safe, sometimes resulting in real harm to the victims.

Demon drakes able to use spells will employ illusionist spells, but as they grow older, they gain a small selection of wizard and cleric spells. Unlike their cousins, their spells are not selected only on the basis of their mischief potential. Spellcasting demon drakes gain spells at the same rate that illusionists do, each hit die equaling a level. One in 24 magic-using demon drakes is a lair shaman and gains both cleric and illusionist spells at the same time, like a multiclassed character. Spell-casting demon drakes also gain one first-level wizard spell at old, very old, and ancient ages each. All demon drakes (even those that do not normally use spells) gain a first-level cleric spell at ancient age, including lair shamans, who have that spell in addition to their others. Most spells are taught by the elders of the demon drake group, except for the cleric spells, which appear to be gained from an unknown source.

Demon drakes also have unique spells that the elders of their race pass on to deserving youths who manage to prepare and execute what are referred to as “grandmaster” practical jokes. These practical jokes must be fairly subtle and affect at least a small community of creatures or a single creature whose innate power is such that the joke deserves merit. Creating an illusion of human women bathing in cool water, tempting a hunter to wade into lava, is a basic practical joke not worthy of grandmaster status. If the “women” were actually female goblins, encountered on multiple occasions by an elite patrol, the joke might be worth consideration.

Demon drakes sometimes kidnap and ransom elven, half-elven, halfling, human, brownie, leprechaun, pixie, quickling, and sprite maidens. During their time of capture, these maids are treated like princesses by the entire tribe. The ransom demand might be a minor quest to benefit the tribe or the payment of some valuable item the tribe desires. However, depending upon their infatuation with their new “princess”. the demon drakes might gift her with treasures worth double the ransom they demand. It is an honor to be kidnapped by demon drakes.at least, in the eyes of the kidnappers. They allow the maid to leave after six months even if no ransom is paid. It is considered an insult if they return the maiden prematurely.

Demon drake clans are located near some source of sulfur, hence their preoccupation with lairing in or near volcanic vents. They must consume a few ounces of sulfur every week, or their fiery breath weakens. After several weeks without sulfur, the damage from their breath is reduced by half (round fractions down). 

Demon drakes speak a variant of the faerie-dragon language as well as their alignment tongue. Most also speak salamander, quickling, elven, leprechaun, or pixie. They have 120’ infravision and excellent night sight. 

The following are three unique demon drake spells. A young-adult demon drake has usually earned at least one unique first-level spell, while an old demon drake might have all three spells that follow, as well as others the DM might create.

*Pretty--Oops! (Illusion/Alteration)*
Level: 1 
Components: V,S,M
Range: 0 
CT: 1 round
Duration: Special 
ST: Negates
Area of Effect: ½ cubic foot
Explanation/Description: This spell may be cast upon small living creatures or small inanimate objects. If cast upon a living creature, the creature is allowed a saving throw vs. paralysis, or it is paralyzed for 5-8 hours. Each hour after the fourth hour, the creature is entitled to another saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature immediately recovers. If still paralyzed at the end of eight hours, the creature automatically recovers. A piece of wool, bird down, or similar item is required for casting the spell.

When the spell is cast, the demon drake concentrates upon the illusory form it wishes the object or victim to take. The form should be of the same approximate shape and size of the object or creature upon which the spell is cast. A poisonous snake might be transformed into a bejeweled dagger, a hornet’s nest into a sealed container, and a cockatrice into a sleeping lap dog. 

Should a creature or object with pretty—oops! be touched or take damage, it automatically transforms into its original form. Detect illusion spells reveal this magical disguise for what it is.

*Slither--Hiss! (Illusion/Evocation)*
Level: 2 
Components: V,S,M
Range: 30’ 
CT: 1 round
Duration: 24 hours 
ST: Negates
Area of Effect: 10’ diameter sphere
Explanation/Description: Demon drakes use this spell to guard their caverns from intruders. The spell is closely related to magic mouth but with a twist. The material component of this spell is a lizard skin or snake skin. The spell is able to discern between different creatures as does the magic mouth spell, and can be programmed to activate against a specific type of intruder.

When the spell is activated by an intruding creature, a rustling, slithering sound is heard, seeming to come from farther inside the cave or in the direction the intruder is traveling. This sound is discernible whether the intruder is noisy or quiet. The sound is obviously that of something large and serpentine. Each intruding creature is allowed a saving throw vs. spells; those that fail to save become uneasy and catch glimpses of something huge and foreboding in most every shadow and crevice. These victims each fall prey to a spook spell 1-4 rounds later, if they remain within the spell’s area of effect.

*Pretty--Boom! (Illusion/Evocation/Alteration)*
Level: 3 
Components: V,S,M
Range: 0 
CT: 1 round
Duration: 24 hours 
ST: l/2
Area of Effect: 10’ sphere
Explanation/Description: The material component for this spell is a gem of at least 1 gp value. When cast, the gem takes on the appearance of a gem of 10-100 times its real value. This enchantment lasts exactly 24 hours. At the end of this time, the gem explodes with great force, doing 3-12 hp damage to anyone within 5’. Those within 10’ are allowed a saving throw vs. wands; if successful, they take half damage. The explosion is based upon force, not fire. The burst produces shrapnel-like shards capable of turning a backpack, bag, or pouch into shreds while still doing damage to the bearer of the item. If the gem explodes in a bag of holding or portable hole, the item is destroyed, but the bearer of the bag or hole takes no damage.

The caster of the spell may dispel this spell before it explodes simply by speaking a command word within 10’ of the gem.  Only the caster can so deactivate the pretty—-boom! gem, even if another spellcaster knows the command word. Dispel magic works normally against this spell. 

Alternately, the demon drake may choose not to have the gem explode. Instead, the gem might evaporate into a stinking cloud, as per the wizard spell, or might explode with a great noise but doing only 1 hp damage and creating a 20’-diameter cloud of sulfurous smoke lasting one turn.

*Table 4 Demon Drakes' Statistics*
Age MR HD  Length Claw Butt* Breath (major) Breath (minor)
Very young 12% ½ 1' - 1 1-4 1
Young 18% 1 1'6" 1 1-2 1-4 1
Sub-adult 24% 1 + 3 2' 1 1-3 1-6 1-2
Young adult 30% 2 2'3" 1 l-4 1-6 1-3
Adult 36% 2 + 3 2'6" 1 1-4 l-8 l-4
Old 42% 3 2'9" 1-2 l-6 2-8 l-4
Very old 48% 4 3' l-2 1-6 l-10 1-6
Ancient 54% 5 3'3" l-3 2-8 l-10 1-6
* Damage from biting is equal to the butt-damage value minus 1 hp, with a minimum value of 1 hp damage.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #146 (1989).


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

It looks like we can simplify the spellcasting to that of a specialist wizard (illusionist) equal to their Hit Dice, and note that these innate caster levels stack with actual class levels taken later (or the mystic theurge prestige class, in the case of the "lair shaman").


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

AFter reading this section these are gonna suck.

Faerie dragon stats I found (couldn't find them in SRD didn't look too hard though):

STR 5 Dex 20 Con 9 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 16

Demon Drake:

Str 5 Dex 18 Con 9 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 18


FD can be found here:
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...rie+dragon+d20+stats&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

We just converted the faerie drake from the same article.  Just scroll back the past few pages.


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

But google didn't say so! argghh!


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

So basically use the faerie drake stats?


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## Leopold (Jun 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> So basically use the faerie drake stats?






yes, probably less dextrous and more intelegent and foxy.


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## RavinRay (Jun 17, 2009)

Higher Int and Wis then?

Skipping ahead to the breath weapon (can I anticipate this already?), we can use just the weaker version and say that it can apply a (enlarging metabreath) feat to it 4/day.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2009)

It's funny, we started the faerie drakes at Int 14, but they were listed as low to average in the original text.  These are average to high, so start at 16?  I could also see somewhat higher Wis and less Dex.  Sure.

Good idea on the breath weapon.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> Skipping ahead to the breath weapon (can I anticipate this already?), we can use just the weaker version and say that it can apply a (enlarging metabreath) feat to it 4/day.




I like your style.  

The ability score plans sound reasonable.

These are slightly bigger than faerie drakes.  Allow them to reach Small at young adult?  If so, improve Str and reduce Dex as usual for the size increase?


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## Leopold (Jun 17, 2009)

Yes, lets move their ability scores in that direction then. They are the bigger more malicious cousins to faerie drakes.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2009)

Hmmm...I fear we may have gone a bit overboard with the last one.   Its intelligence was supposed to be worse than this one, which if we go with the proposed increase, will eclipse the red dragon.   

By 2e scores, the demon drake should more closely follow the copper or brass dragon's mental ability score progressions.


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## Leopold (Jun 19, 2009)

Then dumb it down a bit.  Really won't kill this thing much. We can always go back and RetCon the faerie drake if it's a bit too overpowered.  That's the beauty of not being bound to a published medium


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2009)

Hmm, since these are true dragons, we wouldn't even need to change skill ranks.  I say let's drop the faerie dragon Int to 10 or so.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2009)

The Wis and Cha are too high, though, and that's a bit more extensive re-tooling (Will saves, frightful presence DCs, etc.)

I don't mind doing it, but we'll need to have a clear plan before we move forth.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2009)

Faerie drakes don't have frightful presence, so that helps a little, but they do have a Cha bonus to AC ability.  I guess that's a wash.  I think we should probably reduce the progression for the faerie drake mental scores based on the demon drake description.  Maybe we could just reduce them all by a fixed amount at all age categories.  Then adjust the ACs appropriately.  Simple enough?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

How about we follow the copper/brass progression, but keep Cha as high as Wis (rather than Int), since they rely so much on Cha?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2009)

Sure, how does that do?


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## RavinRay (Jun 22, 2009)

Works for me too; it also differentiates them as a group.


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

Here's how the faerie drake looks after those revised ability scores:


```
Faerie Drakes by Age 
Age 		Size 	Hit Dice (hp) 		Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha BaseAtk/Grp Attack Fort Ref Will Breath Weapon (DC) Frightful Presence DC 
Wyrmling  	T 	1d12+1 (7) 		 11  18  13  10  11  11	 +1/–7		+3  +3  +6  +2		1d6 (11) 	— 
Very young 	T 	2d12+2 (15) 		 11  18  13  10  11  11	 +2/-6		+4  +4  +7  +3		2d6 (12) 	— 
Young 		T 	3d12+3 (22)     	 11  18  13  12  13  13	 +3/-5		+5 +5  +8 +5		3d6 (12) 	— 
Juvenile 	T 	4d12+4 (30) 		 11  18  13  12  13  13	+4/-4 		+6 +6 +9 +6		4d6 (13) 	— 
Young adult 	T 	5d12+5 (37) 		 11  18  13  14  15  15	+5/-3 		+7 +7 +10 +8 		5d6 (13) 	— 
Adult 		T 	6d12+6 (45)		 11  18  13  14  15  15	+6/-2 		+8 +8+11 +9		6d6 (14) 	— 
Mature adult 	T 	7d12+7 (52)		 11  18  13  16  17  17	+7/-1 		+9 +9+12 +11		7d6 (14) 	— 
Old 		T 	8d12+8 (60)		 11  18  13  16  17  17	+8/+0 		+10 +10 +13 +12		8d6 (15) 	— 
Very old 	T 	9d12+9 (67)		 11  18  13  18  19  19	+9/+1 		+11 +11 +14 +14		9d6 (15) 	— 
Ancient 	T 	10d12+10 (75)		 11  18  13  18  19  19	+10/+2 		+12 +12 +15 +15		10d6 (16) 	— 
Wyrm 		T 	11d12+11 (82)		 11  18  13  20  21  21	+11/+3 		+13 +13 +16 +17		11d6 (16) 	— 
Great wyrm 	T 	12d12+12 (90)		 11  18  13  20  21  21	+12/+4 		+14 +14 +17 +18		12d6 (17) 	— 


Faerie Drake Abilities by Age 
Age 		Speed 						Init 	AC 								Special Abilities 				Caster Level 		SR 
Wyrmling 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12 		[I]Dancing lights[/I], immunities, unearthly grace	— 			— 
Very young 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12 		[I]Ghost sound[/I]	 				— 			— 			 
Young 		10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	17 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +1 Cha), touch 17, flat-footed 13 		[I]Obscuring mist[/I]					— 			— 
Juvenile 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	17 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +1 Cha), touch 17, flat-footed 13 		[I]Entangle[/I]					— 			—		 
Young adult 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	18 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 Cha), touch 18, flat-footed 14 		DR 5/cold iron, [I]glitterdust[/I] 			— 			16
Adult 		10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	18 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 Cha), touch 18, flat-footed 14 		[I]Invisibility[/I]					— 			17
Mature 		10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	19 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +3 Cha), touch 19, flat-footed 15 		DR 10/cold iron, [I]speak with plants[/I] 		— 			18
Old 		10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	19 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +3 Cha), touch 19, flat-footed 15 		[I]Freedom of movement[/I]				— 			19
Very old 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	20 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +4 Cha), touch 20, flat-footed 16 		DR 15/cold iron, [I]hallucinatory terrain[/I] 		— 			20
Ancient 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	20 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +4 Cha), touch 20, flat-footed 16 		[I]Charm monster[/I]					— 			21
Wyrm 		10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	21 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +5 Cha), touch 21, flat-footed 17 		[I]Commune with nature[/I], DR 20/cold iron		— 			22
Great wyrm 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	21 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +5 Cha), touch 21, flat-footed 17 		[I]Project image[/I]	 				— 			23
```


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2009)

That seems fine.  Or maybe we could drop the faerie drake Int to the black dragon progression, as that's a little slower, and maybe use this one (copper/brass) for the demon drakes.  This Wis/Cha progression is probably fine for both sets of drakes.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2009)

Good point.  This was based on comparing the demon drake to the 2e dragons.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

Updated faerie drake.

Added demon drake.  Note that much of its entry is still placeholders from the faerie drake entry.

Should the demon drake have the fire subtype?


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2009)

They seem like they should have the fire subtype, but the original text only appears to give them fire resistance (at least if that's what the ring of fire resistance used to be).  Maybe they're not quite draconic enough to have the subtype?


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

That appears to be the case.  I just double-checked the 2e red dragon, and they have full immunity to fire.   So how about scaling fire resistance by age categories?   Maybe start 'em at 5, and move up by 5 every other category?


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2009)

Works for me!


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

Should we make the unique spells like Pretty---Oops! unique SLAs?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2009)

Assuming we're dropping the spell casting due to low HD like for the faerie dragon, then yes.  But if we keep casting, then let's convert them as spells.


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## RavinRay (Jul 4, 2009)

I concur with freyar


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

So the question becomes:  convert to SLAs or retain spellcasting?

I have no strong preference.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Here's the appropriate text about spellcasting from both of them:



			
				demon drake said:
			
		

> Demon drakes able to use spells will employ illusionist spells, but as they grow older, they gain a small selection of wizard and cleric spells. Unlike their cousins, their spells are not selected only on the basis of their mischief potential. Spellcasting demon drakes gain spells at the same rate that illusionists do, each hit die equaling a level. One in 24 magic-using demon drakes is a lair shaman and gains both cleric and illusionist spells at the same time, like a multiclassed character. Spell-casting demon drakes also gain one first-level wizard spell at old, very old, and ancient ages each. All demon drakes (even those that do not normally use spells) gain a first-level cleric spell at ancient age, including lair shamans, who have that spell in addition to their others. Most spells are taught by the elders of the demon drake group, except for the cleric spells, which appear to be gained from an unknown source.




and 


			
				faerie drake said:
			
		

> Faerie drakes have innate spell abilities that slowly increase as they grow older. Only drakes of young adult and older ages have offensive spells. Most prefer spells useful in their everyday lives (as selected by the DM); such spells are taught by the older members of a faerie drake group.
> 
> Faerie drakes have been known to associate with and spy upon wizards and druids, especially while the latter learn and cast their spells. It is conjectured that watching such activities enables faerie drakes to learn spells other than those they acquire early in life.




This is fairly similar, though I think the demon drakes have slightly stronger language.  Demon drakes get CL = HD originally, and it seems like faerie drakes get somewhat less (though they get both wiz and druid levels).  So there's more justification in giving casting levels for the demon drakes, but not a whole lot.

I guess I could go either way.  The answer might also depend on whether there are any other drakes that strongly demand casting; if not, I'd be more inclined to convert to SLAs.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2009)

I say give them full casting. Demon drakes sorcerer with a focus on illusions and enchantments, faerie drakes sorcerer with some druid spells sprinkled in (or with access to the Animal, Plant and Weather domains, perhaps?)


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Oooh, that would mean re-writing the faerie drakes, and I'm not sure they really have quite enough casting.  I'd only like to do that if the rest of the drakes look like they should have full casting.  Do you know anything about them?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2009)

Nope. I'm coming into this process rather late--I'm just looking at the original text posted above.


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Hmmm, maybe Shade can tell us.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

I'll check the archive CDs later today.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

Crystal Drake:

"Only 50% of all crystal drakes have the ability to cast spells throughout their lives. Fully 50% of these spell-casters choose to cast wizard spells; 20% become shamans of their lairs and have both cleric and illusionist spells, like a multiclassed character. Another 15% cast only illusionist spells, and 15% cast only druid spells. As they progress in age, their spellcasting abilities increase, as shown in Table 2. Old crystal drakes that have no previous spell-casting talents always develop the ability to cast cleric spells as a lst-level cleric. They gain one additional level of spell-casting ability with each following age level, becoming 3rd-level clerics at ancient age. Most spell-casting powers are taught by the elders of each group of crystal drakes, through a teaching process that involves no writing or spell books. Cleric and druid spells, however, appear to be granted by an unknown power perhaps a demigod."

Shadow Drake:

They have some clearly spell-like abilities, as well as this...

"The shadow drake is a shy creature and often uses a shadow duplicate to lure creatures away from its lair. Some shadow drakes have magical abilities, having learned to cast illusionist spells from elder members of their species (though some learn spells from gnome or human illusionists in the vicinity). These spells are mostly defensive in nature but never include spells such as color spray, dancing lights, and other spells that create or involve light. See Table 8 for details."


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Well, I suppose it depends on tables, but my preference is probably strong SLA progressions for faerie drakes and shadow drakes and casting for demon and crystal drakes.  However, a case could be made for giving them all full casting, probably at a slow progression.  Anyone else have a thought?  It could mean revising the faerie drakes, but we should try to get them right.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Here are the tables.  Note that the demon drake does not have a table indicating magic progression.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

But there is this:


> Spellcasting demon drakes gain spells at the same rate that illusionists do, each hit die equaling a level. One in 24 magic-using demon drakes is a lair shaman and gains both cleric and illusionist spells at the same time, like a multiclassed character. Spell-casting demon drakes also gain one first-level wizard spell at old, very old, and ancient ages each. All demon drakes (even those that do not normally use spells) gain a first-level cleric spell at ancient age, including lair shamans, who have that spell in addition to their others. Most spells are taught by the elders of the demon drake group, except for the cleric spells, which appear to be gained from an unknown source.




Well, I just don't know.  I guess I'd lean toward a slow caster level progression for all of them, but we'll probably want to strip out the SLAs from the faerie drake.   On the other hand, we had this logic about the faerie dragons:



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...as long as the gap between CR and caster level isn't too great, we may be OK.
> 
> Still, looking at other true dragons at 12 HD or less, the caster level is usually 1st. That's an enormous difference.
> 
> ...




This is fairly convincing logic, actually.

Here's yet another proposal: give them all 1 effective sorc level/ 2 age categories.  That probably won't throw off the CR much.  Then we can see about dialing back the faerie SLAs again.

I'm feeling torn.  Maybe I'll have a stronger opinion in the morning.  In the meantime, anyone else?  RavinRay?


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## RavinRay (Jul 10, 2009)

This _is_ a toughie. I'm getting close to bedtime so if random things just pop into my head then bear with me awhile. Since it is a _demon_ drake I wildly think of giving it nasty warlock invocations but then that's not core. At what age should we start them off as 1st-level sorcerers? White dragons are the last to start and they end up as 13h-level sorcerers at great wyrm. Maybe a late starting age?


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Ok, what about a CL progression for all of them like 0, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5?  Then we can revisit the faerie drake SLA progression and see if we need to tone it down?


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

That might work...with each "specialized" in different areas of magic.

The crystal drakes should probably be psionic like the gem dragons, though.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

I was thinking the same about specializations.  And good call on the crystal.  Making it psionic also reduces problems associated with trying to mimic that weird spell slot list!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2009)

I like the warlock thing, actually. Perhaps we give it SLAs that mimic warlock abilities? Ray of doom, beguiling voice, protection of the fiends, etc?

The limited sorc progression would, however, be much simpler.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

I don't think anyone is saying dump the SLAs completely...

Or we could just go back to the strong SLA progression again.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like the warlock thing, actually. Perhaps we give it SLAs that mimic warlock abilities? Ray of doom, beguiling voice, protection of the fiends, etc?
> 
> The limited sorc progression would, however, be much simpler.




While I'm a fan of trying to utilize flavorful expansion rules, in this case I think if might not be the best fit.

Demon drakes are actually "not really vicious in nature", and are just as often chaotic neutral as chaotic evil.  Also, they tend to use their magic more for practical jokes, and warlock abilities tend more toward causing harm.

Just my $.02.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Nasty practical jokes, though.  Still, I think I agree.  We should just keep warlock-like stuff in mind if we add SLAs.  Maybe some of the less damaging ones.


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## RavinRay (Jul 11, 2009)

A warlocky demon drake _and_ a psionic crystal drake! Woot! That makes my day!

Limited sorcerer progress, and a couple of really nice SLAs thrown in based on spells that are overlooked or neglected, and we can give each drake a distinctive set of powers.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2009)

How does the proposed caster level progression (0, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5) look to you?


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## RavinRay (Jul 12, 2009)

That's actually good. 5th level sorcerer = 3rd level spells which are not powerful.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

That sounds like a good plan.  Continue with demon drake, or revise faerie first?


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2009)

Let's go back and finish the faerie drake.  Good to get things done.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

Updated faerie drake.


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2009)

Think we should strip out a few of the SLAs?  

Treats Animal, Plant and Weather domain spells as arcane, like demiurge suggested?

Looking back at the original text ("Like faerie dragons, faerie drakes can become invisible at will."), maybe we should increase that to at will while reducing some other SLAs?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Yes, yes, and maybe not.  

In the 3.5 Draconomicon version, faerie dragons are limited to 3/day for invisibility.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2009)

But the CC/ToH version has at will invisibility.   But 3/day is ok.

Ok, any of the SLAs in the spell lists and therefore replaced by spellcasting?  Those would be good candidates to drop (besides invisibility, that is ).


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

I believe all the bolded ones could be covered by the drake's spell lists.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—*dancing lights, ghost sound *(very young or older); 3/day—entangle (juvenile or older), *glitterdust *(young adult or older), *invisibility *(adult or older), *obscuring mist *(young or older), speak with plants (mature adult or older); 1/day—charm monster (ancient or older), commune with nature (wyrm or older), freedom of movement (old or older), hallucinatory terrain (very old or older), project image (great wyrm).

If we allow them to also cast spells from the Animal and Plant domains as arcane spells, it could trim the list a bit further.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2009)

Let's allow Animal, Plant, and Weather domains as arcane.

That would also cover commune with nature, but that's all (surprisingly). How's it look if we keep invisibility and drop commune with nature and the other bold ones?  I'm not positive it will look the way I want, but what do you all think?


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

It looks like this...


```
Faerie Drake Abilities by Age 
Age 		Speed 						Init 	AC 								Special Abilities 				Caster Level 		SR 
Wyrmling 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12 			Immunities, unearthly grace			— 			— 
Very young 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12 			— 	 					— 			— 			 
Young 		10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	17 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +1 Cha), touch 17, flat-footed 13 		— 						1st 			— 
Juvenile 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	17 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +1 Cha), touch 17, flat-footed 13 		[I]Entangle[/I]					1st 			—		 
Young adult 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	18 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 Cha), touch 18, flat-footed 14 		DR 5/cold iron 					2nd 			16
Adult 		10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	18 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 Cha), touch 18, flat-footed 14 		[I]Invisibility[/I]					2nd 			17
Mature 		10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	19 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +3 Cha), touch 19, flat-footed 15 		DR 10/cold iron, [I]speak with plants[/I] 		3rd 			18
Old 		10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	19 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +3 Cha), touch 19, flat-footed 15 		[I]Freedom of movement[/I]				3rd 			19
Very old 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	20 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +4 Cha), touch 20, flat-footed 16 		DR 15/cold iron, [I]hallucinatory terrain[/I] 		4th 			20
Ancient 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	20 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +4 Cha), touch 20, flat-footed 16 		[I]Charm monster[/I]					4th 			21
Wyrm 		10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	21 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +5 Cha), touch 21, flat-footed 17 		DR 20/cold iron					5th 			22
Great wyrm 	10 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft. 	+4 	21 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +5 Cha), touch 21, flat-footed 17 		[I]Project image[/I]	 				5th 			23
```


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

You know, that's actually ok.  There's not a lot of support in the original for the SLAs, but they seem appropriate.

Think we need to take another look at CR, or does the casting approximately compensate the lost SLAs?


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Looking it over, I think it still works.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

On again to the demon drake?  Same CL progression?


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

Let's look over the updated faerie drake once more before moving on.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

Yikes, they're missing one of the tables!  I'd swear that was there before!  But they seem ok otherwise.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

Eep!  

Thankfully, I was able to recover it from a cached copy.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

Whew, that was scary.  Anyway, I think it looks good enough to move on if everyone agrees.


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## RavinRay (Jul 25, 2009)

It's go for me.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I say give them full casting. Demon drakes sorcerer with a focus on illusions and enchantments




We also discussed some "warlocky" powers for them.

Also, we need to work in their unique spells in some manner.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2009)

I think I like converting the unique spells as spells, but I could be persuaded to switch them to unique SLAs.  In any case, I think the warlocky stuff should be within the range of normal SLAs.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2009)

What "warlocky stuff" shall we use?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

demiurge suggested "Ray of doom, beguiling voice, protection of the fiends, etc?" but you weren't too fond of those due to the fact that demon drakes aren't usually viscious in nature, just trouble-making.  I own no warlock stuff, so I can't really make suggestions, but bestow curse might be a reasonable SLA at a late age category.  Maybe things like hideous laughter, too, stuff that makes you lose actions.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

Demiurge and RavinRay seemed most enthusiastic about "warlocky" abilities, so I'll wait for them to weigh in.


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## RavinRay (Aug 7, 2009)

Okey-dokey, got a list of warlock invocations, looking for some annoying candidates and their spell equivalents if any. 

charm (4th) aka charm monster
darkness (2nd) aka darkness
hungry darkness (3rd) aka darkness filled with a bat swarm
curse of despair (4th) aka bestow curse
And then there are invocations that transform the warlock's eldritch blast. Basically the blast is a 60-foot ray suffused with energy that hits on a successful ranged touch attack. If we choose such invocations, that means the demon drake could have a few SLA's that use rays. Possible choices are:

beshadowed blast (4th), blinded for 1 round
bewitching blast (4th), confused for 1 round
sickening blast (2nd)
And here's a useful resource for warlock invocations.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

I don't really get an "eldritch blast" vibe from these.  Charm, Darkness, Bestow Curse all sound good as SLAs.  Maybe hungry darkness, too, not sure.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Hmmm...the eldritch blast invocations listed don't seem particularly evil.  Perhaps we could allow the demon drake to comingle some of those effects with its breath weapon a number of times each day?

That would give them a unique niche among dragonkind, eh?


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2009)

Oooh, instead of some SLAs.  I like that a lot, and I feel like there's precedent in some metabreath feats, too.  Good call!


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## RavinRay (Aug 17, 2009)

Actually, that sounds perfect! The demon drake should be able to enlarge its fire breath weapon 3/day via the equivalent of a metabreath feat, so we can add other enhancements.


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

Right, maybe it adds a new "metabreath" ability every 3rd age category or something?

Maybe these three suggested by RavinRay at 4th, 7th, 9th, and 12th age categories?
    * beshadowed blast (4th), blinded for 1 round
    * bewitching blast (4th), confused for 1 round
    * sickening blast (2nd)


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## RavinRay (Aug 17, 2009)

So let's give it a name, say Eldritch Breath (Su), that lists the possible effects as the dragon ages. I think. Then the n/day factor, and maybe the dragon has to wait longer than 1d4 rounds to use its breath weapon (in any form) should it apply an eldtritch effect to its breath.


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

I was thinking about this.  Since presumably we will be dropping SLAs to make room for these effects, I think it's probably ok to leave the recharge time at 1d4 rounds.

We should write up the new spells as spells, then, for their sorc casting.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Summarizing...

Eldritch Breath (Su):  A demon drake may blend baleful magical energy to impart additional debilitating effects to its breath weapon.  Each of these additions may be used three times per day.  Only one eldritch breath effect may be used at one time.  Eldritch breath is treated as part of the breath weapon for purposes such as metabreath feats (see Draconomicon).

A juvenile or older demon drake may beshadow its beath weapon, blinding foes for a number of rounds equal to its age category unless they succeed on a Fortitude save.

A mature adult or older demon drake may bewitch its beath weapon, confusing foes (as the confusion spell) for a number of rounds equal to its age category unless they succeed on a Will save.

An ancient or older demon drake may befoul its beath weapon, sickening foes for a number of rounds equal to its age category unless they succeed on a Fortitude save.


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

How about adding "A  wyrmling or older demon drake may enlarge its breath weapon, doubling its radius"?

Do these effects work on anyone in the area of effect or just on characters that take damage from the breath weapon?

Edit: should we come up with something for great wyrms?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

How often for the enlarging?

I'd say anyone in the breath weapon's area must save vs. the fire and eldritch effect separately.

I'm open to suggestions for a great wyrm power.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

Let's stick to 3/day for enlarging.

I'll agree.  Add a line: "Eldritch breath effects affect anyone in the area of the breath weapon, and victims must save separately for the fire damage and eldritch effect"?

I'll think about that one.  Hmmm.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

For the great wyrm, we could borrow the nauseating blast (nauseated) or binding blast (stunned).


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

Let's go nauseated.   That sounds good.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Summarizing...

Eldritch Breath (Su): A demon drake may blend baleful magical energy to impart additional debilitating effects to its breath weapon. Each of these additions may be used three times per day. Eldritch breath effects affect anyone in the area of the breath weapon, and victims must save separately for the fire damage and eldritch effect.  Only one eldritch breath effect may be used at one time. Eldritch breath is treated as part of the breath weapon for purposes such as metabreath feats (see Draconomicon).

A juvenile or older demon drake may beshadow its beath weapon, blinding foes for a number of rounds equal to its age category unless they succeed on a Fortitude save.

A mature adult or older demon drake may bewitch its beath weapon, confusing foes (as the confusion spell) for a number of rounds equal to its age category unless they succeed on a Will save.

An ancient or older demon drake may befoul its beath weapon, sickening foes for a number of rounds equal to its age category unless they succeed on a Fortitude save.

A great wyrm demon drake may besmirch its beath weapon, nauseating foes for a number of rounds equal to its age category unless they succeed on a Fortitude save.

Enlarge Breath Weapon (Su):  Three times per day, a wyrmling or older demon drake may enlarge its breath weapon, thereby doubling its radius.
__________________


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

I like it!


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Updated.  (Wow, its been almost 7 weeks since the last update to the entry!  )



RavinRay said:


> Okey-dokey, got a list of warlock invocations, looking for some annoying candidates and their spell equivalents if any.
> 
> charm (4th) aka charm monster
> darkness (2nd) aka darkness
> ...






freyar said:


> Charm, Darkness, Bestow Curse all sound good as SLAs.  Maybe hungry darkness, too, not sure.




Do we still want to give them some SLAs, on top of the spellcasting and eldritch breath?


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## RavinRay (Aug 20, 2009)

Maybe just a couple mischief-causing ones. Those that really bring out its naughty, impish, irritating side. And if they cause some damage on the side, even if only non-lethal, all the better for the drake. Otherwise the breath weapon is a work of beauty.  The only meaner breath I can think of is of a certain obyrith (acid and insect plague) whose name I'd rather not pronounce, especially three times in succession.


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2009)

These dragons do take a while, especially when we have to go back and revise one!

I guess the SLA list is imported from the faerie drake?  

Anyway, I agree with Ravin Ray.  Just a couple mischievious ones.  And then let's write up those spells as new spells.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

Yeah, the list is cut n' paste from faerie dragons.

Suggested mischievous SLAs?


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

Just brainstorming here, we can pick from these or whatever:

Prestidigitation, Magic Aura, Ventriloquism, Reduce Person, Misdirection, Shatter, Major Image?

I didn't want to go past 3rd level, since I don't think they should have too much in the way of SLAs.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

How about:

very young (prestidigitation)
juvenile (ventriloquism)
adult (misdirection)
old (hold monster)
ancient (bestow curse)


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

Gets progressively meaner?  I like it!

Ok, allow Charm, Trickery, and perhaps 1 other domain as arcane spells?  They're supposed to like illusions, and the charming seems to fit.

Bluff, Hide, Move Silently for class skills?  I could almost see Craft (trapmaking) to go with the practical jokes.

Then on to the unique spells?


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Updated.

Madness for the third domain?

I could see swapping Move Silently for Craft (trapmaking).

I think we missed this...



> NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and either *1 head butt* or 1 bite
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: See Table 4




The table shows damage ranging from 1 to 2-8, and notes that "Damage from biting is equal to the butt-damage value minus 1 hp, with a minimum value of 1 hp damage."

So maybe they gain a headbutt (slam) attack that deals damage one step up from their bite (1d6 for Tiny and 1d8 for Small)?


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

Madness is ok.

The head butt is a little weird for a true dragon, so I don't feel compelled to included it.  But what you propose makes sense, also, and works for me too.


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Yeah, I'm fine with either retaining or dropping the headbutt.   On the one hand, iff it deals more damage than the bite, then why would it ever use the bite?  On the other hand, it does give them a bludgeoning attack to use when that would be beneficial.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

Full attack?

We could keep the head butt but compromise by setting damage equal to bite.


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## RavinRay (Aug 28, 2009)

Well there are a few dragons that have extra physical attacks that don't affect the stats of the standard attacks, the Beastlands' beast dragon's gore attack being an example.

Edit: Just saw that this is the 1003rd post. Time to continue this on a new thread isn't it?


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

In that case, we can keep it.

I'll close this thread (and start another) after we finish the demon drake.

Let's move on to the unique spells...

*Pretty--Oops! (Illusion/Alteration)*
Level: 1 
Components: V,S,M
Range: 0 
CT: 1 round
Duration: Special 
ST: Negates
Area of Effect: ½ cubic foot

Explanation/Description: This spell may be cast upon small living creatures or small inanimate objects. If cast upon a living creature, the creature is allowed a saving throw vs. paralysis, or it is paralyzed for 5-8 hours. Each hour after the fourth hour, the creature is entitled to another saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature immediately recovers. If still paralyzed at the end of eight hours, the creature automatically recovers. A piece of wool, bird down, or similar item is required for casting the spell.

When the spell is cast, the demon drake concentrates upon the illusory form it wishes the object or victim to take. The form should be of the same approximate shape and size of the object or creature upon which the spell is cast. A poisonous snake might be transformed into a bejeweled dagger, a hornet’s nest into a sealed container, and a cockatrice into a sleeping lap dog. 

Should a creature or object with pretty—oops! be touched or take damage, it automatically transforms into its original form. Detect illusion spells reveal this magical disguise for what it is.


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## RavinRay (Sep 1, 2009)

So what school is the spell, illusion (the target is only apparently transformed), or transmutation (the target is physically transformed)? Either way it can be foiled by _true seeing_.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm leaning toward transmuation, due to the paralysis, but might be convinced otherwise.


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2009)

I like transmutation for this.  It should negate Su abilities of the object transformed, like the petrifying bite of the cockatrice.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Great idea!


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2009)

Giving it a try:

*Pretty --- Oops!*
_Transmutation_
Level: Sorc/Wiz 1 ?
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 1 full round action ?
Range: Touch 
Target: Creature or object (Tiny or smaller) touched
Duration: 1 hr/level ?
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell transforms a Tiny or smaller creature or object into a form of the caster's choice (if the spell is cast upon a creature, the creature receives a Fortitude save to negate the spell).  Creatures that fail their saving throw are paralyzed for the duration of the spell.  All magical (Su or Sp) special abilities and special qualities of the creature or object transformed are negated during the duration of the spell.

If at any point while the spell is active, the target of the spell is touched, the spell immediately ends, transforming the target back to its true form, reinstating its magical special abilties and special qualities, and ending the paralysis if the target is a creature.

True seeing reveals the true form of the target.

Material Component: A piece of wool or bird down.

We should put in the flavor that demon drakes often use "nasty" targets for fun.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

It looks good, but it feels more like a 2nd- or even 3rd-level spell, eh?


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

It does.  The paralysis is pretty strong.  Maybe 3rd, do you think?


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

That sounds reasonable...it's about as deadly as hold person.  Hold person allows a save every round, while this only requires someone to touch it (assuming they can tell it's the creature).  That seems a reasonable tradeoff.  Let's make the duration the same as hold person, then.  (1 round/level).


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

The problem with the short duration is that you can't use it for jokes very well.  What if the target has to be willing, including through a charm effect?


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

It seems more like a detrimental effect, though.

How about we compromise to minutes/level, but keep it unwilling?


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## freyar (Sep 5, 2009)

Sure, that's a fair compromise.


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## RavinRay (Sep 5, 2009)

That makes it more effective for me too.


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## freyar (Sep 6, 2009)

So then:

Pretty --- Oops!
Transmutation
Level: Sorc/Wiz 3
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 1 full round action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature or object (Tiny or smaller) touched
Duration: 1 min/level 
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell transforms a Tiny or smaller creature or object into a form of the caster's choice (if the spell is cast upon a creature, the creature receives a Fortitude save to negate the spell). Creatures that fail their saving throw are paralyzed for the duration of the spell. All magical (Su or Sp) special abilities and special qualities of the creature or object transformed are negated during the duration of the spell.

If at any point while the spell is active, the target of the spell is touched, the spell immediately ends, transforming the target back to its true form, reinstating its magical special abilties and special qualities, and ending the paralysis if the target is a creature.

True seeing reveals the true form of the target.

Material Component: A piece of wool or bird down.


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## freyar (Sep 6, 2009)

Here are the other two new spells.  Fortunately, I think Pretty --- Hiss! might only really be 1st level if we write it correctly.  We'll have to see about the last one; we should keep it down to 3rd level, since they only get to CL 5.  Ideally, it'd be nice to have a 2nd level unique spell, but I'm not sure that will work.



> Slither--Hiss! (Illusion/Evocation)
> Level: 2
> Components: V,S,M
> Range: 30’
> ...


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## RavinRay (Sep 6, 2009)

Slither--Hiss! sounds like illusion 2 to me. Should we give targets a Will save or a Listen check to foil it?

Pretty--Boom! is evocation for me, since it can deal real damage. The damage has no energy descriptor (just concussive or piercing damage), but should it have a Force descriptor? Kinda like one of the exploding crystals psionic powers to me.


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## freyar (Sep 6, 2009)

I think you're right about Slither---Hiss!, but it would be nice to keep it to level 1.  Illusion [figment, fear].  It's a cross between ghost sounds and magic mouth, so level 1 makes some sense there.  Suppose we tone down the fear effect to bane, lasting 1 minute.  Would it still be 1st level in that case?  

Pretty---Boom! should definitely be evocation [force].  The question is what effect exactly?


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2009)

freyar said:


> I think you're right about Slither---Hiss!, but it would be nice to keep it to level 1.  Illusion [figment, fear].  It's a cross between ghost sounds and magic mouth, so level 1 makes some sense there.  Suppose we tone down the fear effect to bane, lasting 1 minute.  Would it still be 1st level in that case?
> 
> Pretty---Boom! should definitely be evocation [force].  The question is what effect exactly?




Gosh, I seem to have missed a lot of drake action!

I fear it would be difficult justifying _slither-hiss!_ as a 1st level spell, since it is a multi-target fear effect it could end up a lot more potent than the 1st level _cause fear_ spell. I guess if it only causes a few rounds of the Shaken condition and has some HD limit (affects total HD up to caster HD? (max 10)?) it could be balanced for 1st level.

_Pretty-boom!_ looks more like a 2nd level spell to me, a downgraded version of _explosive runes_.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

freyar said:
			
		

> I think you're right about Slither---Hiss!, but it would be nice to keep it to level 1. Illusion [figment, fear]. It's a cross between ghost sounds and magic mouth, so level 1 makes some sense there. Suppose we tone down the fear effect to bane, lasting 1 minute. Would it still be 1st level in that case?




I think that's reasonable, or even shakened for 1 round/level.  In that case, it is essentially doom that affects multiple opponents, but for a shorter duration.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2009)

Well, I'm a little undecided about the subschool now, either figment or pattern.  Because it seems to be a mind-affecting fear effect, I'm sort of leaning toward pattern, actually.  What do you think?

Ok, affects up to 10HD of targets within 5 ft of the triggering creature, shaken for 1 rd/caster level?


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2009)

That all sounds about right.


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Also, I agree with Cleon's assessment of Pretty-boom! looks resembling a weaker version of explosive runes, which deals force damage.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

Let's try this spell out.  Should we also allow the trigger to depend on creature type?

Slither --- Hiss!
Illusion (pattern) [fear, mind-affecting?]
Level: Sorc/Wiz 1?
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 1 full round action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One object (see text)
Duration: 24 hours or until discharged
Saving Throw: Will negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)

When a creature comes within 10 ft of the target object, the spell creates the illusory sound of a large serpent crawling and hissing nearby.  In addition, the first 10HD of creatures within a 5 ft radius (or 10 ft?) of the creature that triggers the spell (including the triggering creature) are shaken for 1 round per caster level.  Creatures with the lowest HD are affected first, and the creature closest to the triggering creature is affected first in the case of a tie.

A Will save to disbelieve the illusion also negates the fear effect.

Material Component: A snake skin or lizard skin.


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's try this spell out.  Should we also allow the trigger to depend on creature type?
> 
> Slither --- Hiss!
> Illusion (pattern) [fear, mind-affecting?]
> ...




That looks good. I'd go for the 10 foot radius, myself.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

Agreed.  Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

And I thought it might need a little polish!

Let's get rid of some question marks:
Allow it to trigger only when a certain creature type comes by (like magic mouth)?
Spell level 1?
mind-affecting fear or just fear?


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2009)

freyar said:


> And I thought it might need a little polish!
> 
> Let's get rid of some question marks:
> Allow it to trigger only when a certain creature type comes by (like magic mouth)?
> ...




Well we'll needs some way to let the drake get through without triggering it, either a password or being able to set it to a creature type. 

How about it triggers whenever a creature without the Draconic or Reptilian types passes by?

My preference is for spell level 1 and mind-affecting fear.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2009)

Revising, following Cleon's suggestions (I think it looks pretty good now):

Slither --- Hiss!
Illusion (pattern) [fear, mind-affecting]
Level: Sorc/Wiz 1
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 1 full round action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One object (see text)
Duration: 24 hours or until discharged
Saving Throw: Will negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)

When a creature without the Dragon type or Reptilian subtype comes within 10 ft of the target object, the spell creates the illusory sound of a large serpent crawling and hissing nearby. In addition, the first 10HD of creatures within a 10 ft radius of the creature that triggers the spell (including the triggering creature) are shaken for 1 round per caster level. Creatures with the lowest HD are affected first, and the creature closest to the triggering creature is affected first in the case of a tie.

A Will save to disbelieve the illusion also negates the fear effect.

Material Component: A snake skin or lizard skin.


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## Cleon (Sep 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> Revising, following Cleon's suggestions (I think it looks pretty good now):
> 
> Slither --- Hiss!
> Illusion (pattern) [fear, mind-affecting]
> ...




That looks fine to me, we can call the spell done as far as I'm concerned.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2009)

Ok, good!  I'll try to move on to Pretty --- Boom! sometime soon.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

> Pretty--Boom! (Illusion/Evocation/Alteration)
> Level: 3
> Components: V,S,M
> Range: 0
> ...




Here's a stab at it, based off weakening explosive runes, stinking cloud, and fog cloud...

Pretty--Boom! 
Abjuration [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched gem
Duration: 24 hours or until discharged (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

You transform a single gem's appearance to seem of much greater value. Exactly 24 hours after casting, the gem detonates, dealing 3d4 points of force damage. Any creature or object within 5 feet of the gem takes the full damage with no saving throw; any other creature or object within 10 feet of the gem is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage. The gem is destroyed in the process (no saving throw).

Rather than dealing force damage, you may instead choose one of two other effects.  First, the gem can evaporate into a 20-foot-spread sickening vapors. Living creatures in the cloud become sickened. This condition lasts as long as the creature is in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after it leaves. (Roll separately for each sickened character.) Any creature that succeeds on its save but remains in the cloud must continue to save each round on your turn.  The second optional effect is a thunderous pop followed by a cloud of concealing fog.  Each creature within a 10-foot-radius spread must make a Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 hour. A deafened creature, in addition to the obvious effects, takes a –4 penalty on initiative and has a 20% chance to miscast and lose any spell with a verbal component that it tries to cast.  The ensuing fog functions as fog cloud, except it only lingers for 1 minute.

The gem appears to be a much higher quality gemstone of 1,000 gp value.  Anyone interacting with the gem is entitled to a single Will save to detect the ruse.  Alternatively, a creature with the Appraise skill may attempt a DC 27 Appraise check (DC 25 + spell level) to determine the gem's true worth.

Material Component:  One gem worth at least 1 gp.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

Looks pretty good, but why abjuration?  I'd think evocation or maybe conjuration.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

No argument here.  I just borrowed it from explosive runes, which it most closely resembled.

Stinking cloud and fog cloud are conjuration (creation).  Perhaps that is better?


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

Maybe, though most force effects are evocation (and that's considered an underpowered school by some people).  Is it possible to have it change schools?  Also, I think we need to specify how long the sickening cloud lasts.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

The description of Pretty-Boom looks fine but it may be a bit too powerful, it's almost like three 2nd level spells rolled into one. I think I'd reduce the duration of deafness from an hour, and curb the duration of the stinking vapours.

Make them both last 1d4+1 rounds, and have the stink only linger for one round after leaving the cloud?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

freyar said:


> Maybe, though most force effects are evocation (and that's considered an underpowered school by some people).  Is it possible to have it change schools?  Also, I think we need to specify how long the sickening cloud lasts.




PHB2 introduced "dual-schooled" spells, which might be appropriate here.



Cleon said:


> The description of Pretty-Boom looks fine but it may be a bit too powerful, it's almost like three 2nd level spells rolled into one. I think I'd reduce the duration of deafness from an hour, and curb the duration of the stinking vapours.
> 
> Make them both last 1d4+1 rounds, and have the stink only linger for one round after leaving the cloud?




Are you sure it's necessary?  I already toned down stinking cloud from nauseated to sickened, reduced fog cloud from 10 min/level to 1 minute, and blindness/deafness from permanent to 1 hour.  I think the 1d4+1 rounds for lingering stink sounds good, though.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

Dual schools sounds like the way to go.

I guess the question is if the versatility of the spell makes it 3rd level.  I don't know if it would be game-breaking at 2nd, though, especially since it should be mostly limited to demon drakes.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Are you sure it's necessary?  I already toned down stinking cloud from nauseated to sickened, reduced fog cloud from 10 min/level to 1 minute, and blindness/deafness from permanent to 1 hour.  I think the 1d4+1 rounds for lingering stink sounds good, though.




Oh, sorry. I registered that you'd downgraded it from the default for stinking cloud. It's fine as-is.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

So, following my previous post (which Cleon probably cross-posted), we're all fine with 2nd level and dual schools?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Updated.

How large shall we make a clan?


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

freyar said:


> So, following my previous post (which Cleon probably cross-posted), we're all fine with 2nd level and dual schools?




So we're talking Conjuration-Evocation? I'm OK with that, or just Evocation.

It makes little difference to me.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> How large shall we make a clan?




Not very big methinks.

Clan (5-15)?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

That works for me.  Beyond that, are we *finally *finished?


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

Works for me too. 

There's a ? on the level of Slither --- Hiss! but, yes, I think they're finally done.  Which drakes do we want to take on next?


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## RavinRay (Sep 24, 2009)

Been leaving you guys to work out the spells and they look pretty wrapped up. What were the others? Crystal drake is the only one I remember.

On the side, I took a look ahead at the Mystaran gem dragons, and do I have a lot to say! Shockingly not psionic  but I've gotten over that, and I've already started comparing their stats to other dragons, and know from which dragons their stats were cribbed with some tweaking here and there. All in good time though.

Also, since I got a copy of _Complete Psionic_ (hit-and-miss for me), I found a psionic location that's perfect for the bejluril dragon: the emergent caldera, an enormous volcanic caldera that boosts psionic fire powers. I'm definitely gonna add this as a sidebar for the beljuril dragon.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2009)

There's the crystal drake, which we were going to make psionic, and the shadow drake, which seems illusion-y.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2009)

*Crystal Drake*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 9./18. (MC: A)
HIT DICE: See Table 1
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: E, Q
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite and 2 claws
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See Table 1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Minor breath weapon, up to major spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities, magic resistance, high intelligence, ethereal travel, special minor powers from eating gems, up to major spell use
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See Table 2
INTELLIGENCE: Low to high
ALIGNMENT. Chaotic good
SIZE: S (see Table 1)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 90%
Magic use: 50%
Sleeping: 30%
LEVEL/XP VALUE: Up to VI/775 + 6 per hit point (maximum age and abilities)

This nomadic offshoot of the faerie dragon prefers caves and caverns in uncivilized deserts for its lairs, but lone wanderers may be found in any clime, especially near gem deposits. Some clans led by ancient crystal drakes have found their ways into the plane of elemental Earth, where they seek gems.

Crystal drakes are noted for their scintillating, crystal-like hides, and some unscrupulous hunters trap and kill these wondrous creatures to gain their skins. Crystal drake hides are popular in many lands and make beautiful leather apparel that flashes and sparkles in the light. Even lands that have outlawed the sale of crystal drake hides usually have buyers for these illegal goods. An unmarred hide from a mature, adult crystal drake brings as much as 1,000 gp. The crystal drake’s hide is the prime component of a robe of scintillating colors, but such hides must be specially gathered and treated to be used for this purpose. The same hide that causes these miniature dragons to be hunted also gives them an unusually low armor class and immunity to many spells.

Though crystal drakes enjoy a good joke, they play their tricks only when they will not bring attention to their lairs. They often spy upon a passing group of intelligent creatures known to be carrying gems; if they satisfy themselves that the creatures are safe to trade with, these drakes might offer to trade gold and other items for jewels. This trading always takes place some distance from their lairs, as crystal drakes have learned to be very wary of travelers--even friendly ones. 

Crystal drakes can spit acid four times a day. They expel this acid with great force and accuracy (gaining a +4 to hit). This acid does double damage against creatures or objects composed of earth, stone, or crystal (see Table 1).

All ancient crystal drakes are known to have the ability to go ethereal once per week, and they have the ability to transport up to four of their clan members with them. These ancient drakes often use this ability to travel to and forage on the plane of elemental Earth, as well as to escape capture or worse. 

Because of the nature of crystal-drake hides and their inherent magical abilities, some spells behave in an odd manner when used against such a creature. Color spray, energy drain, hypnotic pattern, lightning and other electrical attacks like shocking grasp, and sunray spells are instantly reflected back upon the caster. Magic missiles are reflected back to the caster only if the drake makes a saving throw vs. wands, harming the drake if the saving throw is failed. Eyebite, prismatic sphere, prismatic spray, prismatic wall, and rainbow pattern spells have no effect on the drakes. Light and continual light spells cannot blind them—however, these latter two spells, if successfully cast on a crystal drake, blind anyone within 20’ who fails a saving throw vs. spells. This blindness lasts 2-12 rounds. 

Only 50% of all crystal drakes have the ability to cast spells throughout their lives. Fully 50% of these spell-casters choose to cast wizard spells; 20% become shamans of their lairs and have both cleric and illusionist spells, like a multiclassed character. Another 15% cast only illusionist spells, and 15% cast only druid spells. As they progress in age, their spellcasting abilities increase, as shown in Table 2. Old crystal drakes that have no previous spell-casting talents always develop the ability to cast cleric spells as a lst-level cleric. They gain one additional level of spell-casting ability with each following age level, becoming 3rd-level clerics at ancient age. Most spell-casting powers are taught by the elders of each group of crystal drakes, through a teaching process that involves no writing or spell books.  Cleric and druid spells, however, appear to be granted by an unknown power perhaps a demigod.

Crystal drakes are very fond of jewels, gems, and crystals. They each have two cheek pouches, much like hamsters, in which they can store up to four gems. Their senses of smell and taste are very keen, and they can actually sense the presence of precious stones within 10’. Indeed, crystals, gems, and jewels are a necessary part of a crystal drake’s diet. Each drake must consume at least 5 gp of gems per week, or its hide loses its crystalline sheen and the powers associated with it. A crystal drake loses one point of armor class per week without the diet of gems, down to a minimum of AC 5. Once its proper diet is reestablished, it gains its armor class back at the same rate. For each week without a gem diet, there is a cumulative 25% chance that its spellreflecting power will not function. After one month without eating the required amount of gemstones, the crystal drake’s immunity to the spells given above is lost, and its hide becomes a dull gray. Even if the specific spell immunity is lost, the crystal drake still retains its natural resistance to magic. 

Ingesting certain gemstones has strange effects upon crystal drakes. They are aware of these effects and often carry some of these gems in their mouth pouches for emergencies. For a gemstone to affect a crystal drake, a minimum amount of that particular gem must be consumed. These gems and effects are given in Table 3. Only one of these gem effects can be in effect at one time. If a new gem is ingested before the effects of the last gem is over, the prior effects are lost.

Crystal drakes speak their own language, their alignment tongue, and 1-4 other languages, as chosen by the DM.

*Table 1 Crystal Drakes’ Statistics*
Age Length HD Bite Claw Breath AC
Very young 1’ ½ 1 0 0 7
Young 1’6” 1 1-2 0 1 6
Sub-adult 1’9” 1+3 1-3 0 1-2 5
Young adult 2’ 2 1-4 1 1-3 4
Adult 2’3” 3 1-6 1 1-4 3
Old 2’6” 4 l-6 l-2 l-6 2
Very old 2’6” 5 2-8 l-3 2-8 1
Ancient 2’6” 5 + 3 2-8 l-4 2-8 0

*Table 2 Crystal Drakes’ Spell Abilities*
Age MR Wizard Cleric Druid Illusionist
Very young 5% 0 0 0 0
Young 10% * ** *** ****
Sub-adult 12% 1 1 1 1
Young adult 15% 2 2 2 2
Adult 20% 3 3 3 3
Old 25% 4 4 4 4
Very old 30% 5 5 5 5
Ancient 35% 6 6 6 6
* At this age, the crystal drake may use four magic-user (wizard) cantrips, as per Unearthed Arcana.
* * At this age, the crystal drake may use four clerics’ orisons, as per DRAGON® issue #108, “Cantrips for Clerics.”
* * * At this age, the crystal drake may use four druidical orisons, as per DRAGON issue #108, “Cantrips for Clerics,”
and issue #119, “Cantrips for Druids—Naturally.”
* * * * At this age, the crystal drake may use four illusionist cantrips, as per Unearthed Arcana.
Note: All crystal drakes of sub-adult age or older are able to substitute four cantrips or orisons in place of a first level spell.

*Table 3 Crystal Drakes' Special Gem Powers*
Gemstone type Min. gp value consumed Effect and duration
Alexandrite 100 Adds +2 to saving throws for one turn
Amber 100 Grants immunity to disease for 3 rounds, or cures same
Amethyst 100 Grants immunity to paralysis and poison for 1 turn, or cures same
Beryl 100 Improves armor class by two steps for 1 turn
Carbuncle 100 Allows use of polymorph self into dragon form 10 X larger in size, once per week
Chrysoprase 100 Grants improved invisibility (as per the illusionist spell) for 2-8 rounds
Coral 100 Grants immunity to insanity for 10 turns, or cures same
Hematite 10 Heals 1-4 hp damage, up to four times per day
Jacinth 250 Grants a + 1 on all saving throws and armor class for 2-8 hours
Jasper 50 Grants +4 to saving throws vs. poison for 1 turn, or allows for a new saving throw at + 4 if consumed after eater was poisoned
Lapis lazuli 50 Adds + 1 to to-hit scores for 1 turn
Peridot 250 Adds +4 to all saving throws for 1 turn
Ruby 100 Adds + 2 to saving throws, and acts as a luckstone, for 1 turn
Sapphire 250 Allows the casting of known spells only as if one level higher, only once per day
Topaz 250 Creates a minor globe of invulnerability around the eater for 1 turn
Note: See the 1st Edition Dungeon Masters Guide, pages 26-27, for the possible effects of other consumed gems.


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## RavinRay (Sep 25, 2009)

So we're gonna make this psionic; it has a hide that reflects certain effects that's vaguely reminiscent of the prismasaurus; and gems have weird effect on it. Flavor is strongly psionic for me.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2009)

I'd say your assessment hits the target.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2009)

Agreed.  Boy, but we're getting into weird critters now.  Anyway we can simplify the reflective spell immunity a little?


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## Cleon (Sep 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> Agreed.  Boy, but we're getting into weird critters now.  Anyway we can simplify the reflective spell immunity a little?




Good grief, this looks like it will be another long conversion job. Twelve age categories *and *weird special abilities.

As for their reflective spell immunity, how about just say they're immune to light-based spells (colour spray, prismatic sphere, light et cetera) and such spells cause it to flash brightly on impact, causing blindness to all within 20 feet who fail to save against the spell's DC, said blindness lasting 1 round per spell level?

I'd drop the reflecting magic missiles bit, since I don't see why it should work on force effects.

They should probably be immune to supernatural and spell-based blindness, too.


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2009)

Well, the age categories aren't worse than other dragons, at least.  And we've already worked out the manifester level progression upthread.

That's an idea about the reflection, Cleon, though I want to think more about it.

Let's start with the simple stuff.  Rather than a breath weapon, the original text says they spit acid 4/day.  Switch to a line of acid?

Speaking of breath weapons, I just noticed that the demon drake always has a 15ft cone, even though its size advances from T to S.  Is that what we wanted to do?


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## RavinRay (Sep 27, 2009)

Didn't notice that about the demon drake. 15-20 ft then?

Not all the familiar drakes have to have breath weapons, if we want them to stand out a crystal drake can have spit instead like the ankheg.


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## Cleon (Sep 27, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> Didn't notice that about the demon drake. 15-20 ft then?
> 
> Not all the familiar drakes have to have breath weapons, if we want them to stand out a crystal drake can have spit instead like the ankheg.




Eh? An ankheg spits acid as a 30 ft line attack, so it just seems to be quibbling about a name. Besides, the Crystal Drake's AD&D stats have "Minor breath weapon" right there in SPECIAL ATTACKS, so I think we should just call a spade a spade and make it a breath weapon.

15 foot line works fine for me. We may up it to 20 foot for the larger ones.

Which leads us to the question of how big they are. Going by the lengths age categories 1-3 or 1-4 are Tiny (length 1' to 1'9" or 2'), but the bigger ones may be Small, since they're over 2 foot long.

So, shall we say Very Young to Young Adult are Tiny, Adult to Ancient are Small?


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2009)

Yeah, I think the breath weapon sizes should be as usual for true dragons.

So, are we agreed that the crystal drakes have a line of acid regular breath weapon?

For the demon drake, the last few age categories bumped up to Small (I haven't gone back and checked the faerie drake), so we can do that here, too.


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I think the breath weapon sizes should be as usual for true dragons.
> 
> So, are we agreed that the crystal drakes have a line of acid regular breath weapon?
> 
> For the demon drake, the last few age categories bumped up to Small (I haven't gone back and checked the faerie drake), so we can do that here, too.




Agreed to all that.  An advantage of keeping the acid as a "breath weapon" is that it allows the drake to take some of the cool feats in the Draconomicon.  

I need to dig through the thread and find where we determined the manifester level and if we determined ability score progression.


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

I forgot to close this thread, as we're well over the 1,000 limit.

I'll start a new thread, repost the crystal drake's stats, and summarize our notes thus far.


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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