# Best Star Trek: DS9 Antagonists



## DreadPirateMurphy (Jul 1, 2006)

Last one.  I'm not interested enough in Voyager or Enterprise...although B&B might make the list of the latter.


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## Vigilance (Jul 1, 2006)

I voted Jem'Hadar, but really there should have been an option for the Dominion as a whole.

The reason I say that is because what truly made the Dominion the best post-TOS big bad in the entire trekiverse was the interesting relationships between the big three: Vorta, Jem'Hadar and Changelings.

Those three races and their relationship to each other truly made the Dominion something frightening: an anti-Federation.

Chuck


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## Steve Jung (Jul 1, 2006)

Gul Dukat. You never could tell what he was up to.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 1, 2006)

My first thought was Gul Dukat: the perfect recurring Star Trek villain.  Villainous, he's always a threat when you see him (even when he's being peaceful, there is always a threatening undercurrent), he does have a complex background and motivation, but it never really takes away from him being a nemesis, and he's always around to make trouble when inconvenient for the heroes.

The Vorta and Jem'Hadar were great.  The Jem'Hadar were the best grunts, and the Vorta were wonderfully slimy and devious commanders.  The Dominion was even better than the Borg as Trek villains, as the Dominion was dangerous, but they were enough like us we could relate to them a little better, and although they were stronger than the Federation, they were not so impossibly powerful that victory seems implausible.  As Vigilance said, in many ways they were the Anti-Federation.

The Maquis were good as an occasional antagonist.  Showing that the Federation isn't perfect, and that humans really do make mistakes.  A conflict where both sides see themselves as the good guys, and a chance to take a close look at what the Federation is really about.

Section 31 is a good antagonis for much the same reason.  In a dangerous galaxy filled with other super-secret spy agencies like the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar, with threats to the very existence of the human race on the scale of the Dominion and the Borg, it was somehow reassuring to know that the Federation had it's own "dirty tricks" arm, but also that menace from within, as the Federation has to look after its own


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## Nightfall (Jul 1, 2006)

Hands down, Gul Duckat.


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## Aaron L (Jul 1, 2006)

Gul Dukat always seemed to melodramatic and over the top for me.  Section 31 all the way.  

Luther Sloan.  William Sadler is an awesome actor.


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## Nightfall (Jul 1, 2006)

Well maybe over the top but his fight against the Klingons was/is pretty neat.


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## Darthjaye (Jul 1, 2006)

Gul Dukat, because he had his hand's in just about every major problem that DS9 dealt with.   He was the big reason the Dominion made their move on the wormhole.   He's the true antagonaist from beginning to end of the series.   He's in the very first episode as the main bad guy, and in the last as the main bad guy.   That, and he truely was vile and I agree with the others here that even when he was on the good guys side, he was never fully on that side of the line.   He's the guy in the room you keep in view all the time.  It's also interesting to note that at no time in the series did he ever feel like he had done anything wrong to the Bajorans.   His perspective made him more twisted than even the Dominion could hope to achieve.


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## drothgery (Jul 1, 2006)

The only reason I didn't vote for Dukat was because of season 7; cynical Dukat was a great villian, but crazy Dukat, not so much.

I'd cast another vote for the Dominion as a whole; the changeling/Vorta/Jem'Haddar and their various minions were the toughest adversaries the Federation's run into (with the Klingons, Cardassians, and Romulans, you got the feeling that if the Federation were willing to be as mean and nasty as they were, it wouldn't be much of a fight; with the Dominion, the Federation was pulling every underhanded and dirty trick they could think of, and still almost lost).


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## Vigilance (Jul 1, 2006)

drothgery said:
			
		

> I'd cast another vote for the Dominion as a whole; the changeling/Vorta/Jem'Haddar and their various minions were the toughest adversaries the Federation's run into (with the Klingons, Cardassians, and Romulans, you got the feeling that if the Federation were willing to be as mean and nasty as they were, it wouldn't be much of a fight; with the Dominion, the Federation was pulling every underhanded and dirty trick they could think of, and still almost lost).




This is true. The Dominion actually posed enough of a threat to make the Federation question some of their values. 

That said, I think there were wars that bad in the Federation's past, such as the original war with the Romulans (about which there were still hard feelings when the Romulans returned in TOS' "Balance of Terror") and the Fed's war with the Cardassians (look at O'Brien's racism toward "the Cardies" which he never quite lets go of).

So perhaps the main reason we see the Dominion as a bigger threat is that this is the first time the producers actually let us SEE the Federation be threatened, as opposed to it just being an interesing bit of character or universe history. 

I'd still vote for the Dominion though, because it was a real WWII type struggle, with the Federation and Klingons taking help from literally ANYONE, from the Romulans to (in the end) the Cardassians.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 1, 2006)

I voted for Kai Wynn.

She, to me, is the most well-realized villain in Trek history.  We saw a huge dynamic shift in the character over the course of the series, both in how we the audience perceived her, and in the substance of her character.  She was power-hungry, but sincere in her devotion to her people.  She was continually divided by her desire to control and her desire to be true to her faith.

Gul Dukat comes in a close second, but in the end his entire character is founded on a single basic self-delusion, which never really changes until he's possessed by the Pah Wraiths.


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## Mycanid (Jul 1, 2006)

I voted for the Pah Wraiths. I thought they were a very interesting idea/twist on things and liked how they were presented on the "larger scope".


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## Vigilance (Jul 1, 2006)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> I voted for Kai Wynn.




Kai Wynn would have been really close for me, I loved to hate her until that last arc. I realize you need to wrap things up, but totally abandoning the Prophets and working with a Cardassian was a bridge too far for me.

Until that point I liked that there could be people who would see her side, see the Federation as a slightly more benevolent occupying power than the Cardassians, etc. 

I mean, if she wasn't willing to roll with Sisko being the Emissary (which I could totally buy btw, her not wanting to submit to a complete stranger, a human who hadn't lifted a finger to stop the Occupation) how am I to reconcile that with her helping Gul Dukat?


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## Mark (Jul 1, 2006)

_What you call genocide, I call a day's work._ - Aamin Marritza posing as Gul Darhe'el (from _Duet_ Season 1, Episode 18 of ST: DS9)


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## Mycanid (Jul 1, 2006)

Hey there Vigilance ... my memory may be playing tricks on me, but wasn't Gul Dukat possessed by one of the Pah Wraiths and uttering "prophecies" and such? SO in her mind wasn't she just being obedient to what she thought were her god(s)? That would explain why she listened to him in my mind.

If I remember correctly when she realized what was going on and warned the others how to defeat the wraiths the Par Wraith in Gul Dukat fried her good, and that was the end of her.

Or am I totally mixing up storylines here?


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## Vigilance (Jul 1, 2006)

Mycanid said:
			
		

> Hey there Vigilance ... my memory may be playing tricks on me, but wasn't Gul Dukat possessed by one of the Pah Wraiths and uttering "prophecies" and such? SO in her mind wasn't she just being obedient to what she thought were her god(s)? That would explain why she listened to him in my mind.




Dukat was the Pah-wraith Emissary. He wasn't possessed as in mind-controlled.

Also, Kai Wynn openly talks about defying the prophets. So she knows that Dukat and the Pah-wraiths are an abomination. It's a huge shift for her- throughout the series, whatever else you could say about her (imo) you could say she was devout in her service to the Prophets.

I guess if I had thought she was a hypocrite all along it wouldn't have been as big a change for me right at the end.

Anyway- that's me- I felt they took an ambiguous character and made her a straight villain and for me, that ruined the coolest thing about her.


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## Mycanid (Jul 2, 2006)

Ah well ... memories all mixed up. Thanks for settin the record straight.


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## DreadPirateMurphy (Jul 2, 2006)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Dukat was the Pah-wraith Emissary. He wasn't possessed as in mind-controlled.
> 
> Also, Kai Wynn openly talks about defying the prophets. So she knows that Dukat and the Pah-wraiths are an abomination. It's a huge shift for her- throughout the series, whatever else you could say about her (imo) you could say she was devout in her service to the Prophets.
> 
> ...




Toward the end of the series, she became more and more desperate for some sign of favor from the Prophets.  She was jealous of Sisko because he had what she thought her due, and he didn't even appreciate it.  She also didn't know who Dukat was at first, as he was altered to look Bajoran.  When she learned who he was, she was in too deep to back out, and she could rationalize it through her jealousy and bitterness.  At the last, she realized how grave a mistake she made, and tried to rectify things at the end.


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## Vigilance (Jul 2, 2006)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> Toward the end of the series, she became more and more desperate for some sign of favor from the Prophets.  She was jealous of Sisko because he had what she thought her due, and he didn't even appreciate it.  She also didn't know who Dukat was at first, as he was altered to look Bajoran.  When she learned who he was, she was in too deep to back out, and she could rationalize it through her jealousy and bitterness.  At the last, she realized how grave a mistake she made, and tried to rectify things at the end.




I understand the rationale for it. It just made her less ambiguous and thus, less cool, to me.


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## Orius (Jul 2, 2006)

Got to go with Gul Dukat.  Arrogant, womanizing, pompous jerk, a bad guy we all love to hate, although I liked the episodes where he wasn't really the bad guy.

The Jem'Hadar were great bad guys, but for the Dominion, I liked Weyoun and the female changeling better.


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## Hand of Evil (Jul 2, 2006)

Gul Dukat was a the bad guy you liked going up against, he was clever, charming, witty and dangerous and made it seem like he was having fun at the same time.


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## Elf Witch (Jul 2, 2006)

I was torn between Kai Wynn and Gul Dukat.  And both were favorite characters of mine. I love the way Kai Wynn managed to twist and mantipulate things so she came out on top at almost every encounter.

I voted for Dukat because I always found him to be a very complex character. On one hand he did some really horrible things when he ran the station yet seveeral episodes showed him to be a patriot to his world. Like when he stoood up agains tthe obsedion order. Up until he went crazy I really felt that he cared what became of Cardassia.

Then there was the relentionship with his half bajorian daughter. He loved her and wanted what was best for her even if that meant learing about her bajorian hertiage.

And we all know that he had the hots in a major way for Kira.


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## Orius (Jul 2, 2006)

I didn't like what they ended up doing with Wynn either.  Even though she started out as a sort of religious fanatic, she was starting to come around to the point where she was more tolerant towards the Federation.  And even though she did always have that resentment towards Sisko, I felt it was out of character for her to go over to the side of the Pah Wraiths.


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## Welverin (Jul 3, 2006)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> I voted for Kai Wynn.
> >snip<






			
				Vigilance said:
			
		

> I guess if I had thought she was a hypocrite all along it wouldn't have been as big a change for me right at the end.
> >snip<




I have to completely disagree with the both of you on Kai Wynn, I believe she always was a complete hypocrite. From her very first appearance in the show she showed herself to be a thoroughly despicable, power hungry  solely interested in better herself with no real concern for the people or belief in her religion.

When I rewatched the show last summer, I was shocked at how downright evil she was right from the beginning. I had forgotten that, and thought it was something that had developed over the course of the season.


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## Elf Witch (Jul 3, 2006)

Welverin said:
			
		

> I have to completely disagree with the both of you on Kai Wynn, I believe she always was a complete hypocrite. From her very first appearance in the show she showed herself to be a thoroughly despicable, power hungry  solely interested in better herself with no real concern for the people or belief in her religion.
> 
> When I rewatched the show last summer, I was shocked at how downright evil she was right from the beginning. I had forgotten that, and thought it was something that had developed over the course of the season.




She was always a power hungry woman I do think that she believed in her religion but she also used it to get ahead.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 3, 2006)

This one was hard to vote on - there were so many cool villains to choose from.

The Changelings were cool. So was Section 31. So was Weyoun 4+. Even the Jem'Hadar were cool, but their willingness to commit suicide irritated me, and the Alpha Jem'Hadar were so stupid I can't believe anyone thought they could be superior. I had to go with the Gul, however. He was there for so long and many of his decisions would seriously screw the Federation.

I think the Breen should count more as a plot device than villains. You couldn't tell them apart (only one was named for the whole series), they were created to tick off the Cardassians and kick Federation behind a few times (because all of a sudden the Jem'Hadar turned into wimps) and they had that Jem'Hadar suicidal tendency. Why did they hate the Federation so much?


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## Aaron L (Jul 3, 2006)

Welverin said:
			
		

> I have to completely disagree with the both of you on Kai Wynn, I believe she always was a complete hypocrite. From her very first appearance in the show she showed herself to be a thoroughly despicable, power hungry  solely interested in better herself with no real concern for the people or belief in her religion.
> 
> When I rewatched the show last summer, I was shocked at how downright evil she was right from the beginning. I had forgotten that, and thought it was something that had developed over the course of the season.





I completely agree.  On her first appearance she tried ro assassinate Vedic Berial!  She was an evil, hypocritical witch from the very beginning.  She didnt change a bit, she just lied a lot.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 4, 2006)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> This one was hard to vote on - there were so many cool villains to choose from.
> 
> The Changelings were cool. So was Section 31. So was Weyoun 4+. Even the Jem'Hadar were cool, but their willingness to commit suicide irritated me, and the Alpha Jem'Hadar were so stupid I can't believe anyone thought they could be superior. I had to go with the Gul, however. He was there for so long and many of his decisions would seriously screw the Federation.
> 
> I think the Breen should count more as a plot device than villains. You couldn't tell them apart (only one was named for the whole series), they were created to tick off the Cardassians and kick Federation behind a few times (because all of a sudden the Jem'Hadar turned into wimps) and they had that Jem'Hadar suicidal tendency. Why did they hate the Federation so much?



Wasn't Worf complementing to work with the Breen? Maybe because Sisko convinced him to stay, the Breen began to hate the Federation? 

But I assume the real reason was that they saw a chance for gaining power, just as Cardassia did.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 5, 2006)

Welverin said:
			
		

> I have to completely disagree with the both of you on Kai Wynn, I believe she always was a complete hypocrite. From her very first appearance in the show she showed herself to be a thoroughly despicable, power hungry  solely interested in better herself with no real concern for the people or belief in her religion.
> 
> When I rewatched the show last summer, I was shocked at how downright evil she was right from the beginning. I had forgotten that, and thought it was something that had developed over the course of the season.



Kai Wynn had two powerful motivations when she was introduced.  Her desire for power, and her belief in the Prophets.  Both were present from the very beginning, and both helped motivate her to commit her first villainy, the assassination of Vedik Borial.  She truly did believe he was the wrong man to become Kai.  She felt at that point that Sisko was not the Emissary, and that allying Bajor with the Federation was a poor move.  She truly did believe _she_ was the right woman for the job.  And her hunger for power pushed her into acting on those beliefs to a villainous extreme.

As the series progresses, however, we see her conviction that Sisko is not the Emissary challenged again and again until, finally, she is forced to accept that he is indeed the Emissary (when Sisko reveals the location of a lost Bajoran holy site.)  Here she starts to become lost.  If Sisko is indeed the Emissary, then she's been working _against_ the Prophets' wishes all this time.  Until this point, she's always seen herself as the heroine, as a champion of her people, protecting them against a false prophet.  Now, she is faced with the terrible idea that _she_ has been leading her people away from the Prophets' path.  That _she_ is the false prophet, the anathema she's been battling all this time.

Enter the Pah Wraiths.  They play on all of her weaknesses.  They offer her another explanation.  That the Prophets were never Bajor's true gods in the first place.  That it is the _Prophets_ who are evil, and the Pah Wraiths who love and nurture Bajor.  And they want _her_ to be their confidante.

In a stroke they offer her a way to view her life, not as a betrayal of all she holds dear, but once again as a righteous path taken against unjust opposition.  Even though she didn't know it at the time, she had always been acting in Bajor's best interests, because although Sisko might be the true Emissary, he is the Emissary of _false gods_.  And that makes everything she's done to oppose him _right_.  On top of that, the Wraiths offer her a place of importance again.

It's a terrible trial.  A stronger woman might have seen through the lies, might have recognized the devil's bargain the Pah Wraiths held out to her, and rejected the false justification.  Unfortunately for her, Wynn was never good at piercing self-delusions.  She _wanted_ to believe what the Wraiths were saying, and so she did.

Only at the very end did she really accept the truth.  Only then did she recognize what she had been and done.  And she did try to make it right, for what that's worth.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 5, 2006)

Welverin said:
			
		

> When I rewatched the show last summer, I was shocked at how downright evil she was right from the beginning. I had forgotten that, and thought it was something that had developed over the course of the season.



I'm curious.  Did you watch the entire series?  If so, you should also remember a few good episodes centered on Wynn and Major Kira that illustrated the complexity of the Wynn character.  Borial's lover and Sisko's trusted ally, Major Kira at first believes Kai Wynn is the embodiment of evil.  But she is forced to consider the possibility that Wynn is not so easily labeled.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 5, 2006)

It's interesting to note that Gul Dukat's great weakness is also self-delusion.  He thinks of himself as a noble protector.  He doesn't understand why the Bajorans don't love him, since he only subjected them to _mild_ atrocity and genocide, as opposed to the much more severe treatment he could have given them.

Throughout the series it's his defining characteristic.  The idea that he's the good guy.  It allows him to do some truly terrible things.


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## Darthjaye (Jul 5, 2006)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> It's interesting to note that Gul Dukat's great weakness is also self-delusion.  He thinks of himself as a noble protector.  He doesn't understand why the Bajorans don't love him, since he only subjected them to _mild_ atrocity and genocide, as opposed to the much more severe treatment he could have given them.
> 
> Throughout the series it's his defining characteristic.  The idea that he's the good guy.  It allows him to do some truly terrible things.




He was often quoted as calling them a "soft" people.   I really think he believed he was toughening them up for their own good and that their eventual "liberation" was even a sign of his progress with them.   I think maybe, in his screwed up mind, he was their saviour from ignorance.


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## Aesthetic Monk (Jul 5, 2006)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> I voted Jem'Hadar, but really there should have been an option for the Dominion as a whole.
> 
> The reason I say that is because what truly made the Dominion the best post-TOS big bad in the entire trekiverse was the interesting relationships between the big three: Vorta, Jem'Hadar and Changelings.
> 
> ...




This sums up my general feelings rather well.

I'd also say that what made DS9 great and arguably the best of the 5 series top-to-bottom (and certainly, from my POV, the best of the 4 sequel series) was the plethora of recurring characters and elements. I really could've made a case for most any of the characters on the list.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 5, 2006)

Darthjaye said:
			
		

> He was often quoted as calling them a "soft" people.   I really think he believed he was toughening them up for their own good and that their eventual "liberation" was even a sign of his progress with them.   I think maybe, in his screwed up mind, he was their saviour from ignorance.



You make a good point.  And of course, this belief opens him up nicely for the Pah Wraiths.


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## DreadPirateMurphy (Jul 6, 2006)

Gul Dukat wins.  Nobody else even came close.


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 6, 2006)

Gul Dukat is one of my favorite villians of all time across tv, movies, books, etc. His constant assertation that he was always being too kind and how he saw them as his children just made all the evil he did even more pronounced. Then, you would see some good, like his devition to his daughter (who he was origionally going to kill!), and you'd think maybe he isn't so bad, but then he would do something evil again, and you'd have to admit that he got you. Plus, his voice just fits the role so very well, the actor was great in the part.

I've always wanted to add a D&D villian who emulates certain aspects of him.


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## Welverin (Jul 8, 2006)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> I'm curious.  Did you watch the entire series?  If so, you should also remember a few good episodes centered on Wynn and Major Kira that illustrated the complexity of the Wynn character.  Borial's lover and Sisko's trusted ally, Major Kira at first believes Kai Wynn is the embodiment of evil.  But she is forced to consider the possibility that Wynn is not so easily labeled.




I did watch the whole series, with an exception here or there since I was watching via Spike. I admit my memory isn't the best adn my perceptions my have ended up being overly influenced by what comes later.

I've been thinking of watching it over again once I'm done rewatching Buffy, though I could watch selected episodes if you have some suggestions. I know her first appearance would be the place to start.


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## Orius (Jul 9, 2006)

Hmm, the Jem'Hadar were great antagonists, but I never really saw them on the same level as some of the other villains presented here.  For one, they very rarely acted on their own, but rather nearly always acted upon the wishes of the Founders.  They were basically lackeys, and in many ways had little choice either, since they were created to kill and obey.

As for the Breen, I'm not really sure what their motivations were, since they were always presented as a mystery of sorts, but I don't think they cared one way or other about the Federation.  I think they were more interested in attacking the Romulans, there were occasional  hints in the show that seemed to indicate that the two didn't like each other very much.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 9, 2006)

Welverin said:
			
		

> I've been thinking of watching it over again once I'm done rewatching Buffy, though I could watch selected episodes if you have some suggestions. I know her first appearance would be the place to start.



I'm afraid I can't help you there.  I do not yet have the series on DVD myself, though I very much want it.


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## Welverin (Jul 20, 2006)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> I'm afraid I can't help you there.  I do not yet have the series on DVD myself, though I very much want it.




First off, you don't need the dvds to make suggestions, episode guides can help there (tv.com seems to be a good one place stop).

Secondly, you may be interested to know that the price on the dvd sets for DS9 and TNG have bee dropping. They've gone down to ~$55 per season, DS9 is up to season five, with TNG a season or two ahead, and a new season dropping every few months or so. I've seen them at Walz Mart and Amazon, haven't seen them at all at Best Buy or Ciruit City, and haven't looked elsewhere.

If you're o.k. getting things used, you should be able to find them even cheaper.


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## Darthjaye (Jul 20, 2006)

Welverin said:
			
		

> First off, you don't need the dvds to make suggestions, episode guides can help there (tv.com seems to be a good one place stop).
> 
> Secondly, you may be interested to know that the price on the dvd sets for DS9 and TNG have bee dropping. They've gone down to ~$55 per season, DS9 is up to season five, with TNG a season or two ahead, and a new season dropping every few months or so. I've seen them at Walz Mart and Amazon, haven't seen them at all at Best Buy or Ciruit City, and haven't looked elsewhere.
> 
> If you're o.k. getting things used, you should be able to find them even cheaper.




From what I can tell Circuit City is still trying to ream everyone for the higher end price (which I think is still around 69.99) but Amazon has the First, Fourth and Fifth seasons for around $51.99 a season.    Not sure why 2 and 3 are $55.99 still.


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