# Rogue's At-Will Sly Flourish, is it too good ?



## Skornn2k7 (Aug 30, 2008)

I DM a game on Sunday, and play on Wednesdays, and Saturdays. I have been noticing that the Rogue's At-Will power Sly Flourish is almost too good. The ones who I have seen play in the games I play or run tend to use it as much, if not more so than their encounter/daily powers. 

The first time I read the power I thought it was 1[W] + Dex or Cha, then I realized reading it again, and seeing it played, it was +Dex +Cha, which when figuring out that you can essentially increase your damage every 4 levels without magic or feats, can be pretty powerful compared to the other classes At-Wills....

I am curious what others thoughts are ??


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## Kzach (Aug 30, 2008)

No.


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## Donovan Morningfire (Aug 30, 2008)

Well, it's not Twin Strike level of good, but it's definitely one of the better at-wills in the game, especially for the Artful Dodger builds.  In Radio Free Hommlet's 7th podcast, they talk about the Rogue as a class, and pretty much say your at-wills are Sly Flourish and something else, because it is that good.

It does a lot of damage, which seeing as how Rogues are Strikers and thus intended to dish out a lot of damage, it makes sense.  The offset to this is that unless the Rogue spends a feat for Rapier proficiency, they're limited to d6s for their melee weapons, as light blade is a requirement for most (if not all) their melee attack powers.


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## Runestar (Aug 30, 2008)

It also requires that you max out your cha for best results. How wise is that? (note: this is a serious question, not sarcasm).


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## mps42 (Aug 30, 2008)

I am currently playing a rogue in my local game and, in my opinion, the drawback (if there is one) to Sly Flourish is that it is Vs AC, typically one of the better defenses. This means that it tends to hit less often and therefore offsets the slightly higher damage.
 As my second at will I took Piercing Strike so I had the choice of attacking creatures Reflexes and it makes a decent combo.
 Also, with virtually ANY of the attacks you can increase damage every 4 levels without magic or feats as virtually every attack has a + _some stat_ in it. I know the wizard my wife plays gets + Int to all of her spells so it seems equal.
 Just my .000000002 worth.


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## Mengu (Aug 30, 2008)

The Human Trickster Rogue in my game uses Piercing Strike a lot more than Sly Flourish. Sly Flourish is good, but not that good. When you can get the Sneak Attack damage, increasing your chance to hit with Piercing Strike is very valuable. If you don't have combat advantage, then risking a bit of extra damage with Sly flourish is more feasible. 

Personally, I'm also quite fond of deft strike when I need to shift away from one target, and move on to another. Riposte is the only Rogue at-will I have yet to see in action.


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## Saeviomagy (Aug 30, 2008)

Deft strike can get you flanks when you might otherwise miss out. Additionally it allows you to stand behind a wall, hide, deft strike out and then move behind the wall again.

Piercing strike lets you target reflex. Since a huge chunk of your damage is sneak attack, and reflex is usually significantly lower than ac, this is incredibly good.

Riposte... isn't that good even if you have a high strength. For me it's just too limited a set of scenarios where it has any significant effect.

Sly flourish is good, but not that good. Especially considering that a brutal rogue gets to add his strength to ANY attack that causes sneak attack damage. He gets the benefit of this at-will with every single sneak attack he makes (ie - he can add his dex and his strength to it).


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## keterys (Aug 30, 2008)

Piercing Strike and Deft Strike have so far appeared to be slightly more useful than Sly Flourish, with Sly Flourish winning out for ranged attacks you don't need to move to get sneak attack (a lot less common post-errata) and when Cha damage is greater than the hit bonus gained from Piercing (which is a lot less often than you'd think if you have backstabber).

So... I'll echo the "No".


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## trayburn (Aug 30, 2008)

Donovan Morningfire said:


> Well, it's not Twin Strike level of good, but it's definitely one of the better at-wills in the game, especially for the Artful Dodger builds. In Radio Free Hommlet's 7th podcast, they talk about the Rogue as a class, and pretty much say your at-wills are Sly Flourish and something else, because it is that good.




Thank you Donovan for the nod to Radio Free Hommlet (http://hommlet.com) yes, here is my read of the Rogue.

Sly Flourish - Really darned good, lots of damage, against AC though so hits only SO often.  If you're the flanking artful dodger rogue, this is a no brainer.  Others should consider this.

Deft Strike - Bread and butter of the Stealth rogue.  A stealth rogue with a hard corner on the map can stand behind the wall in stealth, deft out to strike with a standard, move back to concealment and hide with his move.  Basically throw daggers all day long.

Piercing Strike - If you're the Tank Buster rogue, who wants to drop high armor baddies, this is your choice.  Or if you despise missing.

Riposte Strike - This is for the free ranging rogue, who cares less about Sneak Attack and more about mobility around the field and engaging an enemy who is hiding behind the lines.  Move through their lines, Riposte their warlord.  It's great for the "Go it alone" rogue.

All have their place, but the Sly Flourish is the EASIEST to see the benefit for, and as was noted, I generally feel for Charismatic rogues its Sly Flourish + something else.  My Living Forgotten Realms Rogue, Sorn, is Sly Flourish + Deft Strike because he is the stealth Rogue.


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## Arbitrary (Aug 30, 2008)

A Brute Rogue also is going to get +Str when using Sneak Attack so that's Str + Cha + Dex for damage which is really, really good.


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## themilkman (Aug 30, 2008)

Arbitrary said:


> A Brute Rogue also is going to get +Str when using Sneak Attack so that's Str + Cha + Dex for damage which is really, really good.




After maxing two stats, though, you're not going to have much room left for the other one.  The third stat probably won't start above 12 or 13.  So that's an extra +1 damage at 1st level.  At higher levels, the extra bonus might get a bit better, but probably not by much, and not enough to seriously outpace the HP of your enemies.

At any rate, Brutal Scoundrels would probably benefit more from putting those extra points into Con (rather than Cha) over the long run, so the incremental benefit of Sly Flourish for Brutal Scoundrel Rogues is questionable.

Regardless, Sly Flourish remains a solid (but IMO not overpowered or broken) power.


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## Nifft (Aug 31, 2008)

IMHO Piercing Strike and Deft Strike are better for the Halfling, who is the race best suited to take advantage of Sly Flourish. Piercing is better for when you want raw damage, and Deft is better when you want to most damagingly provoke OAs from a marked target.

Sly Flourish has its place for guys who want some flexibility regarding ranged attacks, but it's a step down from the other two in terms of damage potential.

Cheers, -- N


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## infocynic (Aug 31, 2008)

Deft strike is seriously good. Move behind wall, stealth, deft strike out with combat advantage and chuck the dagger. Even a brutal rogue can benefit by not putting himself in harm's way (especially if he starts the turn behind the wall with stealth, then deft strikes, then moves and restealths). I would love my Kobolds to have deft strike -- they can stealth really well, but it's very hard to leverage that into anything useful.


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## Saeviomagy (Aug 31, 2008)

IMO, Every melee rogue should have piercing strike and every ranged rogue should have deft strike. They're just that good.


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## Jack99 (Aug 31, 2008)

trayburn said:


> Riposte Strike - This is for the free ranging rogue, who cares less about Sneak Attack and more about mobility around the field and engaging an enemy who is hiding behind the lines.  Move through their lines, Riposte their warlord.  It's great for the "Go it alone" rogue.




At higher level, Riposte Strike is awesome. It also ensures one more round of sneak attack damage against lone creatures. (This is assuming you have lasting frost and wintertouched)


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## Arbitrary (Aug 31, 2008)

themilkman said:


> After maxing two stats, though, you're not going to have much room left for the other one.  The third stat probably won't start above 12 or 13.  So that's an extra +1 damage at 1st level. .



'

I don't think you should dismiss it that quickly because it is a unique opportunity to get an extra reward for balanced stats.  Starting out with something like 19/16/14/10/10/8 as a Dragonborne covers all your defenses and sets up routine damage increases in a system that kinda makes you always want to have a 20 in your primary.

It's likely worse than a dex/con/cha configuration but everyone who puts an emphasis on strength has to make a sacrifice.


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## Saeviomagy (Sep 1, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> At higher level, Riposte Strike is awesome. It also ensures one more round of sneak attack damage against lone creatures. (This is assuming you have lasting frost and wintertouched)




It's also assuming that the foe attacks you, which is my problem with riposte strike in the first place.


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## Kintara (Sep 1, 2008)

Saeviomagy said:


> It's also assuming that the foe attacks you, which is my problem with riposte strike in the first place.



Well, that's why you are targeting a "lone" creature, so they have fewer options about who to attack. But one thing you can do is force the monster into a trap. Team up with the Infernalock and have Riposte Strike on one side and Hellish Rebuke on the other. Or if you go first and hit (or if you have combat advantage from some other means than flanking), then the Warlord can Viper's Strike and shift away.

Edit: But I agree with you, too. Riposte Strike isn't as useful if you're flanking with the Fighter.


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## keterys (Sep 1, 2008)

I'm not sure I've seen riposte strike actually inflict extra damage on any creature yet in the ~4 sessions I've been grouped with someone who had it. So I deem it quite effective for controlling the monster into not attacking and quite unreliable for actually getting the rogue the extra attack.


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Sep 1, 2008)

I haven't seen Sly Flourish in play, but I don't think it looks that exceptional as an at-will power. Paladins and Wizards get Holy Strike and Cloud of Daggers - both at-wills that add a second stat to damage, and I haven't seen many arguments that they are too powerful. An optimized high Dex and high Cha Rogue will get a lot out of it, but otherwise I'd prefer Deft Strike and the Rogue's truly exceptional at-will, Piercing Strike, aka "I hit"


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## Nifft (Sep 1, 2008)

Kintara said:


> Edit: But I agree with you, too. Riposte Strike isn't as useful if you're flanking with the Fighter.



 Well, it's useful in that it's one more reason for the foe to not attack you. It's not useful in that it gives you more damage -- it's useful in that it keeps you safer than you otherwise would have been.

Cheers, -- N


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## Diirk (Sep 1, 2008)

mps42 said:


> I am currently playing a rogue in my local game and, in my opinion, the drawback (if there is one) to Sly Flourish is that it is Vs AC, typically one of the better defenses. This means that it tends to hit less often and therefore offsets the slightly higher damage.





I'm not sure that the rogue in my campaign has ever missed, except for the one time he rolled a natural 1.

+5 dex, +3 proficiency (dagger atm), +1 dagger (for being a rogue), +1 magical, +1 level = +11 to hit at lvl 2. He picked up a feat as well, so when he has combat advantage (most of the time) that increases to +14.... before any buffs/debuffs.

Enemies at lvl 2 tend to have around 14-18 AC, so yeah...


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## Jack99 (Sep 1, 2008)

keterys said:


> I'm not sure I've seen riposte strike actually inflict extra damage on any creature yet in the ~4 sessions I've been grouped with someone who had it. So I deem it quite effective for controlling the monster into not attacking and quite unreliable for actually getting the rogue the extra attack.




What do the monsters do if the rogue is the only one in melee? Shift and charge? That shouldn't always be possible. Or do they just stand around and "skip" their turn, for fear of the riposte attack, that I assume your DM rules they know is coming?


Nifft said:


> Well, it's useful in that it's one more reason for the foe to not attack you. It's not useful in that it gives you more damage -- it's useful in that it keeps you safer than you otherwise would have been.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



Precisely. Between Defensive advantage + marking and Riposte Strike + Shadow Assassin Riposte, has a nice synergy when flanking with a fighter. Basically, the monster is SOL.


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## Runestar (Sep 1, 2008)

Nifft said:


> Well, it's useful in that it's one more reason for the foe to not attack you. It's not useful in that it gives you more damage -- it's useful in that it keeps you safer than you otherwise would have been.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



Let's see if you still share the same sentiments with dance of death.


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## keterys (Sep 1, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> What do the monsters do if the rogue is the only one in melee? Shift and charge? That shouldn't always be possible. Or do they just stand around and "skip" their turn, for fear of the riposte attack, that I assume your DM rules they know is coming?




Never seen a rogue as the only person as an available target. Between shift and charge, shift and swing, and just swing at someone within reach, it either hasn't come up or the rogue has missed. Never seen a turn skipped for fear of riposte.

The way I've seen it ruled is that when you use an ability on a creature, it knows how that ability works against it. Abilities you don't use on it (like shadow riposte) it wouldn't know. So it knows that Cloud of Daggers continues to do damage, or that attacking will make you not riposte. Given that Riposte Strike is also considered a form of monster control by many people, that just makes it proactive. 'I stab the Minotaur for 17 damage, and my rapier is held out ready to riposte if it attacks me.'


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## robgmsft (Sep 1, 2008)

*Piercing strike is better for DPS*

Attacking vs reflex is no joke.  Having run a bunch of numerical simulations, here's the keys to DPS as a rogue, in rough order of importance:

1. 20 DEX, 14 STR, Brute Rogue
2. Sneak Attack as often as possible
3. Piercing Strike
4. Backstabber Feat
5. Rapier Weapon
6. Weapon Focus, Light Blade
7. Two Weapon Fighting
8. Nimble


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## Pielorinho (Sep 1, 2008)

I'm running a game with three strikers (an artful dodger, a brutal scoundrel, and a two-axe ranger).  The brutal scoundrel does okay damage. The two-axe ranger loves playing swashbucklingly, and so he does pretty good damage and a lot of terrific stunts.  The artful dodger uses sly flourish to do an appalling amount of damage.  I've gotten used to it, but at first I thought she was fudging the dice rolls, it was so good.

Daniel


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## Leatherhead (Sep 1, 2008)

Pielorinho said:


> I'm running a game with three strikers (an artful dodger, a brutal scoundrel, and a two-axe ranger).  The brutal scoundrel does okay damage. The two-axe ranger loves playing swashbucklingly, and so he does pretty good damage and a lot of terrific stunts.  The artful dodger uses sly flourish to do an appalling amount of damage.  I've gotten used to it, but at first I thought she was fudging the dice rolls, it was so good.
> 
> Daniel




I think your brutal scoundrel is forgetting to add their STR mod to sneak attacks.


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## Nifft (Sep 1, 2008)

Runestar said:


> Let's see if you still share the same sentiments with dance of death.



 Dance of Death is practically a Controller ability, in that it's action-denial: targets can't use area attacks that include you.

However, it's also exactly the opposite of Defender abilities ("attacks must include you"), so it seems like a good fit for the Rogue.

Uh, did that answer your exceptionally vague inquiry?

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 1, 2008)

Nifft said:


> Dance of Death is practically a Controller ability, in that it's action-denial: targets can't use area attacks that include you.




Melee attacks.

Dance of Death has no effect on Area attacks.

-Hyp.


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## Nifft (Sep 1, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:


> Melee attacks.
> 
> Dance of Death has no effect on Area attacks.



 So a cave bear's "Frenzy" attack would bypass the effect? That seems like a bit of a ripoff.

Hrm, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 1, 2008)

Nifft said:


> So a cave bear's "Frenzy" attack would bypass the effect? That seems like a bit of a ripoff.




There are four types of attack - ranged, melee, close, and area.

Dance of Death allows you to alter an opponent's melee attacks.  It doesn't allow you to alter an opponent's ranged, close, or area attacks.

A fighter can't use Power Attack with Sweeping Blow.  Sweeping Blow is a close attack, and Power Attack applies to melee attacks.  (Also, a fighter could use Sweeping Blow with a longbow if he wanted, though he wouldn't gain the special Str bonus.)

A ranger who rolls a critical with Spray of Arrows does not grant the Precise Hunter bonus to his allies; Spray of Arrows is a close attack, and Precise Hunter triggers off a critical with a ranged attack.

-Hyp.


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## Nail (Sep 2, 2008)

Diirk said:


> +5 dex, +3 proficiency (dagger atm), +1 dagger (for being a rogue), +1 magical, +1 level = +11 to hit at lvl 2. He picked up a feat as well, so when he has combat advantage (most of the time) that increases to +14.... before any buffs/debuffs.



The feat _Nimble Blade_?  that'd be a +1 bonus, not +2.

And that +2 Dex-race rogue put an 18 into his Dex...which means he's deficient in things that don't involving hitting stuff.  A beginning 18 (+ racial) hurts just about everyone except Wizards.....


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## keterys (Sep 2, 2008)

Nail said:


> The feat _Nimble Blade_?  that'd be a +1 bonus, not +2.




He said +11 to +14 with combat advantage - so +2 from CA, +1 from NB.



> And that +2 Dex-race rogue put an 18 into his Dex...which means he's deficient in things that don't involving hitting stuff.  A beginning 18 (+ racial) hurts just about everyone except Wizards.....



Honestly, I think rogues can get away with it just as well. In fact, I think I'd rather do it with a number of rogue builds more than any wizard builds I'd play.


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## Arbitrary (Sep 2, 2008)

Bow Rangers and Infernal Warlocks don't get punished too badly for starting with a 20 either.


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## keterys (Sep 2, 2008)

True enough.


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## brendan candries (Sep 2, 2008)

Nail said:


> And that +2 Dex-race rogue put an 18 into his Dex...which means he's deficient in things that don't involving hitting stuff.  A beginning 18 (+ racial) hurts just about everyone except Wizards.....




Not sure what you expect from the rogue besides hitting stuff.

Dex influences to hit/damage/ac/reflex/initiative/rogue skills ... all important to the rogue.

He's better off than even the wizard taking that 18 imho.


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