# Shadowcaster fixes by Mouseferatu



## chaotix42

I remember Ari posted some fixes for the shadowcaster here, like bonus mysteries based on Int. I can't remember all of them however... did anyone save those somewhere, perhaps? I have a MIGHTY NEED of them!


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## Mouseferatu

I'll do you one better. I'll post the latest version, which has a few further tweaks from the one I posted a while back. It still needs playtesting, so I can't swear it's all going to work as written, but this where it stands now.

1) Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

2) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Cha is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

3) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

4) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

5) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

6) You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

7) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.


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## chaotix42

How fortunate! Many thanks Ari! *bows*

A player of mine is un-retiring a character of his for the game this weekend. I'll let you know how these changes work out. At first glance they look excellent.


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## Aus_Snow

Well, this is timely. 

I was going to used the previous version of your update, which I'd saved, only today. My first Shadowcaster in any campaign, though an NPC in this case. Probably a Noctumancer, actually.

Any particular advice concerning that PrC? If not, I'm sure it'll be fine.


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## Nifft

Charisma, hmmm. Not sure I like that change. Intelligence is IMHO the strongest casting stat, and thus made up (a bit) for the weakness of the Shadowcaster's actual magic.

Charisma is the weakest single stat, and split-stat casting is weakest of all. (Sure, it could be worse -- it could be a split between Charisma and Wisdom -- but still, yurk!)

Hmm, -- N


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## Mouseferatu

Nifft said:
			
		

> Charisma, hmmm. Not sure I like that change. Intelligence is IMHO the strongest casting stat, and thus made up (a bit) for the weakness of the Shadowcaster's actual magic.
> 
> Charisma is the weakest single stat, and split-stat casting is weakest of all. (Sure, it could be worse -- it could be a split between Charisma and Wisdom -- but still, yurk!)




Well, the shadowcaster's casting has always been both Int- and Cha-based, and the MAD used to be a lot more problematic before this latest round of changes. By basing both bonus mysteries and DC on one stat, it makes it easier for a shadowcaster to be effective at higher levels. I kept the INT requirement for highest level of mysteries known because I wanted to keep INT involved to at least some extent.

I felt that making Int the primary casting stat might actually be too much, but if people want to swap the two--make Int responsible for DC and bonus mysteries, and Cha responsible for max level of mysteries known--I'd certainly be interested in hearing how it went.


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## wykthor

Mouseferatu, It´s possible that I will playstest the shadowcaster 20 for that one shot adventure this weekend. If that happens, I'll post the impressions here


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## Thomas Percy

Wyktor - I will gladly see Your playtesting notes.


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## Graf

This post probably identifies me as a twink, but I actually decided not to play a Shadowcaster because the last version still had the bonus spells from Int/DC from Cha split.

You basically had to pick between having a decent DC or having some sort of flexibility in terms of bonus mysteries. I.e. between not getting bonus mysteries (no veristility) or having mysteries where the DC meant that they weren’t likely to work.

I still think the class needs some sort of 3.5 psion like overhaul (more mysteries, etc) but I’m glad to see that the Mouse is still on the case.


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## Mercule

Excellent, and thanks.


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## wykthor

Here are my impressions about a human shadowcaster 20 on a one-shot session:

Yesterday, I played a short story which was essentially the first attempt of the DM on a high-level adventure, just to know how the game would flow. I’m the first to admit the session was too easy and without constituting real danger, partly because the characters were way optimized, partly due to some inexperience from my friend and partly for the encounters, whose EL could be a little higher. The party was composed by:

- A Human Fighter 20, specialized in jovar (that fancy celestial greatsword from Planar Handbook).
- A Human Favored Soul 20, more into healing and buffing than front combat.
- A Human Shadowcaster 20, whose statistics follow below.
- A Gnome Rogue 7/Wizard 1/Arcane Trickster 2/Master of Masks 10

Basically, the story revolved around the classic BBEG wanting revenge after being defeated in the past (in that case, a banished marilith). But in the end it showed that the demon was not the perpetrator of the actions that drawn the party to the (obvious) ambush. The marilith was an ally of the true mastermind, a gargantuan great wyrm black dragon, who coveted the party’s resources and feared they could potentially ruin his schemes and decided to be proactive to stamp their menace. Unfortunately, the story didn’t cover much on the act of investigation and sneaking :-(. The session went through three encounters:

1) A fight against an eldritch giant (MM III, CR 15), and three halfspawn from MM IV. I don’t have this book, so I am not sure of the CR’s (and so the EL), but one of them was a “bluespawn godslayer” (I think) and the others had minis that looked like a wingless blue half-dragon rhinoceros. On the first round, the giant and one of the rhinoceros fell before they act, thanks to an area effect (no save) of 18 points of Dexterity damage, due to a quickened Flesh Fails Greater + a Twin Flesh Fails Greater (as I mentioned before, I wanted to check the potential abuse of this mystery in conjunction with metashadow feats). The favored soul employed an empowered Blood to Water spell (Spell Compendium) on the “godslayer”, whom failed the save and suffered 12 CON damage. On the second round, this monster suffered 22 STR damage from the Favored Soul, who cast a quickened empowered moonbolt (Spell Compendium) and a maximized moonbolt. The fighter made short work of it, and of the other rhinoceros too. The encounter ended without any real wounds (less than 40 hp to one PC, 20 to another).

Conclusion: The Shadowcaster used some other mysteries, like Flood of Shadow (no time to use) and Piercing Sight prior to the encounter (no need to use) and concentrated her offensive actions through the use of a 7th-level mystery (Flesh Fails, Greater) plus one extra use thanks to her high CHA. I still think the possible effect of 18 STR/18 DEX  too high, but the other spellcasters can pull similar tricks with metamagic feats. For now, I still like the idea of allowing a Fortitude Save: partial to Flesh Fails Greater, meaning the target may avoid total ability loss and instead be reduced to STR/DEX/CON 1 on a successful save. 

2) The party met two demons: the marilith (who was supposedly the big enemy) and a balor (EL21 approx.). The second encounter was trickier because there was some kind of weird antimagic field ( it’s from a miniatures’ map) that had to be disabled in order to combat the creatures effectively. The Shadowcaster used a Shadow Time mystery, followed by two Army of Shadows mysteries (one for the spell, one for the high CHA), which could do almost nothing while the antimagic field was generated. The Favored Soul and the Master of Masks acted as support meanwhile. After the magic returned, the Shadowcaster burned her highest remaining mysteries: Shadow Surge (Will DC 29) and Ephemeral Storm (Fort DC 31). The marilith was destroyed and the fighter finished the balor. Fortunately, before the combat began, the Fighter and the Shadowcaster had benefited from the Bolster mystery, so the death throes from the demon didn´t hurt too much. 

Conclusion:  The Shadowcaster used her big guns this time. The high DC is one of her main strengths, as of any full spellcaster who could achieve the same DC with spells (wizards: wail of the banshee, dominate monster; cleric: implosion). The shadow elementals created could be employed in the following encounter, so they proved could prove their usefulness, though it could be more interesting and challenging if the last encounter occurred later, without their help. 

3) The showdown of the session happened when the Great Wyrm Gargantuan Black Dragon showed itself (personally, as a follower of B.A.D.D, I’d never use a fair, no-surprise, no spell preparation encounter when using a great wyrm). The combat was unfortunately short (two or three rounds, don’t remember). The Shadowcaster used a combination of Flood of Shadow plus Killing Shadows to avoid the beast’s SR while directed the Elder Shadow Elementals (1 was destroyed in this combat) who dealt only moderate cold damage. The Master of Masks shined with his sneak attack and the Fighter also made liberal use of his Momentum Swing (combat brute feat) to bring down the Dragon.

Conclusion: While the game session had only three encounters that could be tougher (EL: ?, 21 and 22 to a party of level 20), before the final battle the Shadowcaster had expended her “instant drop and kill” arsenal , which could mean a more prolonged battle with less damaging mysteries. That’s because the Quicken Mystery and Twin Mystery metashadow feats were already spent, which reduced her damage potential to 1.5x20d6/120 dmg (Shadow Storm, Life Fades Greater, Curtain of shadows and Killing Shadows mysteries), which is a good amount of damage, but nowhere could threaten a wizard’s or sorcerer’s might. But one thing is certain: the extra uses of mysteries granted by a high attribute has proven their importance.

All in all, although I can’t fully consider the session as reliable to test the potential of the shadowcaster (especially regarding sneaking and terrain controlling), it showed some interesting points. Regarding the Shadowcaster’s character sheet:


*Alania – CN Human Shadowcaster 20*

AC: 30 (+3 dex +4 natural + 8 armor + 5 deflection)

HD: 6 +19d6 +120 (192 hp)

Initiative: +3    BAB/Grapple: +10/+9
Saves: Fort +17  Ref +14  Will +17

Abilities (25 pt buy: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8; all 5 ability points bonus applied to CHA):
*Str 8, Dex 16, Con 22, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 30*

Shadowcaster class abilities: Fundamentals, Mysteries, Sustaining Shadow, Umbral Sight 

Skills (not counting synergy bonuses): 
Concentration +22, Hide +23, Move Silently +31, Knowledge (arcana) +23, Knowledge (the planes) +20,  Spellcraft +27, Spot +15, Use Magic Device +19
Languages: Common, elf, draconic, undercommon, abyssal  

Feats:
1- Enlarge Mystery
1- (bonus: racial) Empower Mystery
3- Maximize Mystery
6- Quicken Mystery
6- Twin Mystery (bonus: Eyes of Darkness path completed )
6- Maximize Mystery (bonus: Ebon Whispers path completed)
9- Empower Mystery
12- Quicken Mystery
15- Path Focus - Breath of Twilight
18- Mystery Penetration (as Spell Penetration)
19- Path Focus, Greater - Breath of Twilight (bonus: Breath of Twilight path completed)

Fundamentals (Save DC 20, when applicable):
Arrow of Dusk (6/day) 
Black Candle (3/day)
Caul of Shadows (3/day)
Liquid Night (3/day)
Mystic Reflections (3/day)
Sight Obscured (3/day)
Umbral Hand (3/day)

The starting fundamentals at 1st level were: Arrow of Dusk x2 and Black Candle. At 4th level Alania picked Mystic Reflections, at 8th chose Caul of shadows, at 12th Umbral Hand was chosen, at 16th Sight Obscured was selected and at 20th Liquid Night was taken. 

Mysteries (and bonus uses/day for high CHA):

*1st * (Su) – Bonus uses/day: 3
Voice of shadow 3/day (Will DC 21)
Bend Perspective 3/day

*2nd * (Su) – Bonus uses/day: 3
Congress of Shadows 3/day
Piercing Sight 3/day

*3rd * (Su) – Bonus uses/day: 2
Killing Shadows 3/day (Will DC 23)
Flicker 3/day

*4th * (Sp) – Bonus uses/day: 2
Bolster 2/day
Warp Spell 2/day

*5th * (Sp) – Bonus uses/day: 2
Curtain of Shadows 2/day
Pass into Shadow 2/day

*6th * (Sp) – Bonus uses/day: 2
Flood of Shadow 2/day
Shadow Storm 2/day (Ref DC 26)

*7th * (Spell) – Bonus uses/day: 1
Life Fades, Greater 1/day (Will DC 29)
Truth Revealed 1/day (Will DC 27)

*8th * (Spell) – Bonus uses/day: 1
Tomb of Night 1/day (Fort DC 28)
Flesh Fails, Greater 1/day

*9th * (Spell) – Bonus uses/day: 1
Army of Shadow 1/day
Shadow Time 1/day
Ephemeral Storm 1/day (Fort DC 31)
Shadow Surge 1/day (Will DC 29)

Metashadow feats usable per day: 
Quicken 2/day
Empower 2/day (not counting the use of Flood of Shadows)
Maximize Spell 2/day + 3/day on mysteries 1st -6th (metashadow rod)
Twin Spell 1/day

Magical equipment:
Heward’s Fortifying Bedroll (C.Mage)
Circlet of Charisma +6 
Belt of Health +6
Gloves of Dexterity +4
Amulet of Natural Armor +4
Vest of Resistance +5 (C.Arcane)
Ring of Invisibility
Ring of Protection +5
Bracers of Armor +8
Wings of Flying
Metashadow Rod - Maximize (1st-6th mysteries)
Wand of Lesser Restoration
Wand of Avoid Planar effects 
Bag of Holding I
Keoghtom’s Ointment
Boots of Elvenkind
Potion of Tongues
Potion of Remove Blindness
Potion of Protection from Fire
Potion of Endure elements
Tome of Leadership & Influence +4
Tome of Clear Thought +4
Manual of Bodily health +3

Cash: 11.000 gp

Swapping mysteries: As the sorcerer, the shadowcaster may exchange one mystery for another one of the same level when she reaches the shadowcaster level 4 and may exchange once again at each even-numbered level onward. While the mystery list above is the final one, this shadowcaster have swapped a few mysteries along her career:

Shadowcaster level:

2 – Life Fades (max dmg 5d6 at 5th level) 
6 – Life Fades swapped for Bend Perspective - completes the Eyes of Darkness Path at this level, as Killing Shadows was chosen at 5th and Piercing Sight at 4th. In the same level, the mystery chosen is Flicker, so the Shadowcaster also completes the Ebon Whispers path (because Voice of shadow was chosen at 1st level and Congress of shadows at 3rd level). 

So, Alania as Shadowcaster 6 obtains thus a total of 3 feats, obtaining maximize, twin and quicken mystery. Yes, this can be a serious problem until higher levels, which I imagine the other spellcasters may use more easily their metamagic feats. But until then, at 6th level of experience, a quickened Killing Shadows followed at the same round by a twin killing Shadows, dealing up to 18d8 dmg IS scary. Besides this and the massive ability damage cited earlier from Flesh Fails Greater Mystery, I haven’t found any other problems


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## Erekose13

I've just started a PBP game here on the boards with a Shadowcaster using your fixes Ari.  We'll be playing in the War of the Burning Sky.  Any tips or tricks for a new shadowcaster (I've pulled some from your post, wykthor).

Character ~ Taren Darkfyre
OOC ~ Malvoisin's War of the Burning Sky PbP 
IC ~ not started yet


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## Corsair

Nitpick: Favored Souls can't quicken.


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## wykthor

Corsair, normally they can´t quicken, but that Favored Soul had Rapid Metamagic Feat from Complete Mage that enabled them to use metamagic without hindrance ;-)

Erekose, I'd appreciate if you input later your impressions about the shadowcaster in play at lower levels (especially from lvls 3-8)


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## Gez

Graf said:
			
		

> I’m glad to see that the Mouse is still on the Käse.




FIFY.


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## Erekose13

wykthor said:
			
		

> Corsair, normally they can´t quicken, but that Favored Soul had Rapid Metamagic Feat from Complete Mage that enabled them to use metamagic without hindrance ;-)
> 
> Erekose, I'd appreciate if you input later your impressions about the shadowcaster in play at lower levels (especially from lvls 3-8)




Will do. With play by post that might take a while to get even there though.


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## heirodule

Ok, so when is WOTC going to issue eratta?


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## WarlockLord

Sorry about the obnoxious thread necromancy, but I'm wondering... Why is it that Shadowsmiths, who are supposed to be dabblers, can cast by int alone, whereas shadowcastewrs have to split between int and cha?


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## wykthor

Well, IMHO, perhaps because the shadowsmith are just that: dabblers. They can create specific shadow effects with a theorical basis (and thus the INT requirement) but lack the drive & control for the mysteries of a shadowcaster (i.e Cha).

Some further thoughts about the revised shadowcaster:

The feats gained by the completion of a mystery path MAY offer some trouble for the DM. Especifically, Quicken Mystery Feat. After comparing with the Sudden Quicken of Complete Arcane (which has a goodly sum of feats) and considering a human shadowcaster with two apprentice mysteries completed has a total of 6 feats at 6th level (1,1,3,5 - bonus, 6, 6 -bonus), IMHO I believe the prerequisite of three metamagic feats for Quicken Mystery became too light. At 6th level, this shadowcaster could conjure 1/day a combination of: maximized killing shadows + quickened killing shadows (12d8 area of unespecified damage, will 1/2). Yes, this can be used just once/day with two 3rd lvl slots, but its a blaster damage that a wizard/sorcerer can't compete at this level. 

Suggestion: To avoid this scaling, I suggest Quicken Mystery has an initial prerequisite of *6 * metashadow feats. So, even at the best of conditions (human shadowcaster with two apprentice mystery paths completed), the character could only gain this Quicken Mystery at 9th level (11th for non human). A human wizard who spent all her feats (bonus included) to fulfill the Sudden Quicken prerequisites can obtain this feat at level 10 at the earliest. A non-human wizard can pick Sudden Quicken at level 12. In order to buy Quicken Mystery a second time, she would need *9* metashadow feats. Finally, if she wants to pick Quicken Mystery for a third (and last) time, she would need *12* metashadow feats. OR, as an alternative, you could mantain the feat prerequisites as they are, just adding a minimum Caster level (7th)


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## DM Callous

I was play testing a Shadowcaster recently when I stumbled upon something the DM and I both questioned. Its not particularly about the Shadowcaster itself, but one of the mysteries. We know it says in its descriptor that it "completely blocks line of sight", but what about those creatures with the ability to see through magical darkness. Would they be able to see through the wall and retain line of sight or would it also block their view?

*Curtain of Shadows*
*Initiate, Veil of Shadows*
*Level/School:* 5th/Transmutation
*Range: * Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
*Effect:* Shadowy wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level (S)
*Duration:* 1 minute/level (D)
*Saving Throw:* None
*Spell Resistance:* No

_You create a wall of frigid shadow that blocks vision and wracks 
all who pass through it with cold._

You create a wall of shadow that completely blocks line of 
sight. Any creatures passing through the wall takes 1d6 points 
of cold damageper caster level (maximum 15d6).


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## Mouseferatu

If a creature can see through magical darkness, and if the _curtain_ is within the range at which they can do so, then yes, they'd be able to see through it.


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## DM Callous

Thanks for the reply Ari. I'll post any other things we stumble into while we play test.


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## ShadowofDeus

*Thread NEcromancy should be a magic type*

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but I'm building a shadowcaster and I had a question regarding the level 20 caster mentioned above.  

On the Metashadow Feats Sidebar in ToM, it states that all Metashadow Feats function Identically to Metamagic feats in all ways not specifically contradicted.  Now, wouldn't that mean that, for example, Quicken Mystery would treat a mystery like Shadows Fade (a 4th level mystery) as an 8th level mystery, due to the fact that quicken spell requires a slot 4 levels higher?


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## Mouseferatu

Nope. If the feats changed the level of the mystery, it would say so. They're limited instead by the X number of times/day restriction, instead.


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## Infernal Teddy

This was exactly what I was looking ofr, and what I asked about in you blog Ari


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## Mouseferatu

Infernal Teddy said:
			
		

> and what I asked about in you blog Ari




*blink*

Did you? I'm afraid I never got an e-mail notification about the comment (or at least I don't remember seeing it). LiveJournal has been a bit funky lately about sending those out.

Sorry.


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## Driddle

I might be mistaken, but I think the shadowcaster was also a half-dragon swarm.
With a few levels of bard to top it off.
That's the way I'd play it, anyway.


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## fafhrd

How do these guys play at low levels?  On paper, they look like shadow magic itself, 20% chance of survival, 80% chance of ending up as lunchmeat.


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## Infernal Teddy

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> *blink*
> 
> Did you? I'm afraid I never got an e-mail notification about the comment (or at least I don't remember seeing it). LiveJournal has been a bit funky lately about sending those out.
> 
> Sorry.




 You answered - I use the name "allamistako" on LJ...


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## Mouseferatu

Infernal Teddy said:
			
		

> You answered - I use the name "allamistako" on LJ...




Ah. That makes more sense, then.


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## Infernal Teddy

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Ah. That makes more sense, then.




I suppose so... *Blush* I forget these things...


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## Crothian

On tonight's CSI Grissom said something like "I have to go meet the Shadowcaster of the Forgotten Realms."


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## Mouseferatu

Crothian said:
			
		

> On tonight's CSI Grissom said something like "I have to go meet the Shadowcaster of the Forgotten Realms."




My wife and I both had a good laugh at that.


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## Cadfan

I still feel there is a glitch in your updated version, Mouseferatu.  Is the following intentional?

You state that apprentice level mysteries that become supernatural abilities gain the supernatural ability DC progression.  You make no mention of Initiate level mysteries which become supernatural abilities due to Favored Mystery feats.

Did you have some specific reason for leaving these out, or was it an oversight?  Allowing Initiate (or even Master) level mysteries to become supernatural and gain the supernatural DC progression lets a player spend a feat to keep a relatively low level mystery still relevant at high levels (say, Shadow Sight).  Personally, I would allow this feat to be used in this manner.  There's some overlap with Path Focus (both feats would increase spell dc), but they function in a different enough manner that I think they could both remain useful.


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## Mouseferatu

Purely an oversight. An Initiate-level feat that becomes a supernatural ability due to the Favored Mystery feat would function just like any other supernatural-mystery, and would use the appropriate progression.


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## Cadfan

Thank you.


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## The-Random-NPC

I'm playing a game with a friend, and he is playing a Spellthief (CA) while I'm playing a Shadowcaster (ToM.) According to the rules a Spellthief can steal a spell or spell-like ability from a spell caster or other source by doing 1d6 less sneak attack damage as a supernatural ability. Now Shadowcasters don't cast spells, but their spells do become spell-like abilities. We were wondering what your take on this is. Could a Spellthief steal mysteries cast as spells? Or can they only do it when it is a spell-like ability? And if he can steal spell-like abilities does my Shadowcaster lose one use of it?
Thanks in advance,
The Random NPC


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## FireDrakeK

*confusion*

sorry to post on a thread so old. but i'm still confused about something.

as i understand it, shadowcasters gain uses per day per mystery. thus each mystery they know can be used X number of times.

how does the bonus uses from heigh int (or Charisma) effect this? do you get one additional use of ANY 1st level mystery you posess? or do you have to assign the use to a specific mystery.

also when building my character having to tretch it over 2 stats really hurts, especially if you're using point-by. i know it's your baby and your concept, but i'd really just swap it to Charisma only (like most I embody this kind of magic classes) your average shadowcaster will probably have a heigh int anyway due to the need for skill points, and massive use of knowledge plains and arcana.

you could even limit the number of bonus feats they can get from spell selections to that of your int modifier. it's just normally on a spellcaster you need a good dex and con in addition to whatever spell-casting stat. it's expected that by level 20 you'll have one that that stand head over heals above the rest. and only one. therefor this caster will never be as powerful as a caster that doesn't have to so split it's resources. 

i'm sure you've though this all though but i really love the idea of this class. the flavor is wonderful. i've been fighting with the other players saying yes it's good enough yes i'll survive if i play it... and then dying repeatedly.


but really, the main reason for this post, is how does that bonus work, cause repeated death's aside, that's really the only thing stopping me from playing one at this point


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## Piratecat

Ari, once you have a chance to respond, I'll slide this over into Rules.


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## kenmarable

If Ari has more to say, that'd be cool, but as a quick answer to the bonus mysteries:


			
				Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Yep. It "floats," in that you need not choose in advance which mystery you're going to use it for.



From post 86 of this thread.

So, if you get a bonus 1st level mystery, you can cast them all X times per day, and then when you need it, you can cast one of them (any one) an extra time. If you have two bonus mysteries, then you can cast one of them X+2 times, or two of them X+1 times, etc.

Right now my wife is playing a shadowcaster and really loves the character. One conceptual shift that helped make the character more effective was to move away from trying to deal out damage and kill enemies, but instead trying to cripple them. Between nonlethal damage and various effects (I forget which ones exactly, but stuff like sickening, slowing, lowering AC, etc.), her character is very effective in weakening bad guys significantly which is a nice change. Even the most powerful fighter usually doesn't have any effect on a bad guy until those hit points reach 0.


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## Mouseferatu

Well, Ken answered the major question, it seems.

As far as the Multi-Ability Dependency... While you could certainly houserule it Cha or Int only, I just don't see that working for the class as written. It's hardly the only class that requires two decent stats, and is better off than some. (Try playing a paladin or monk with only two high scores. ) It just fits the nature of the class, IMO, better than Cha only or Int only.

All that said, if people do try playing it with just one or just the other, I'm interested--as always--in hearing how it goes. If it winds up making a bigger difference in play that my own experience suggests, I could change my mind. But for the moment, I just don't see two ability scores being that big a MAD issue.


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## Puggins

Hi Mouse,

I have an alternative to the bonus spells/day mechanic.  I wouldn't mind hearing your opinions on it.

To my mind, just as you've said before, there are only a few levels where the shadowcaster is much more limited in terms of spell slots than the wizard.  I think these levels can be elminated or highly mitigated by "smoothing over" the uses per day chart and throwing in one tiny modification.

(1) The Shadowcaster starts at first level knowing two 1st level mysteries instead of one.

(2) Uses per day is no longer tied to the type of ability:

*                      Mystery Level
Lvl......1......2......3......4......5......6......7......8......9*
 .01.......1......-.......-......-.......-.......-......-.......-........-
 .02.......1......-.......-......-.......-.......-......-.......-........-
 .03.......1......1.......-......-.......-........-......-.......-.......-
 .04.......2......1.......-......-.......-........-......-.......-.......-
 .05.......2......1.......1......-.......-........-......-.......-.......-
 .06.......2......2.......1......-.......-........-......-.......-.......-
 .07.......2......2.......1......1.......-........-......-.......-.......-
 .08.......2......2.......2......1.......-........-......-.......-.......-
 .09.......2......2.......2......1.......1........-......-.......-.......-
 .10.......2......2.......2......1.......1........-......-.......-.......-
 .11.......3......2.......2......2.......1........1......-.......-.......-
 .12.......3......2.......2......2.......1........1......-.......-.......-
 .13.......3......3.......2......2.......2........1......1.......-.......-
 .14.......3......3.......2......2.......2........1......1.......-.......-
 .15.......3......3.......3......2.......2........2......1.......1.......-
 .16.......3......3.......3......2.......2........2......1.......1.......-
 .17.......3......3.......3......3.......2........2......2.......1.......1
 .18.......3......3.......3......3.......2........2......2.......1.......1
 .19.......3......3.......3......3.......3........2......2.......2.......1
 .20.......3......3.......3......3.......3........2......2.......2.......1

Sorry about the crumby formatting.  Basically, the shadowcaster gets extra uses of his abilities a bit earlier or later, depending on which level we're talking about.  I added an extra use per day for each mystery of levels 4,5, 7 and 8 as compensation for all the extra spells per day not obtained from bonus charisma.

Original way ----> New Way
1st level: SC 1 per day, Wiz 2, maybe 3 per day ------> SC 2 per day
6th level: SC 6 per day, Wiz 11 or 14 per day -----> SC 12 per day, more if 3rd level spell not chosen.
12th level: SC 18 per day, Wiz 23 to ~32 -----> 25 per day, more if higher levels sacrificed

I like the feel of this a bit better than the bonus spells per day, which feels a bit at odds with the rest of the shadowcaster.


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## corronchilejano

A question for Mouseferatu. I don't know  very well, but I think you're the original submitter for the ShadowCaster right?

It's that my main issue is the limited amount of spells to choose from he has. I'm playing the fixed version (IMHO a lot better)... and well, basically...

Have you or anyone else created additional spells? Because some of the roads just don't make sense while others do.


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## Mouseferatu

corronchilejano said:
			
		

> Have you or anyone else created additional spells?




There are three new Paths of mysteries in the _Cityscape_ web enhancement I wrote. You can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a


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## RIMEWINDMASTER

Well i just think if you just take away that peculiarities from the shadowcaster

It was only to be a wizard whit a merely conection to the shadow plane.


im playin whit a human shadowcaster & its difficult but very powerfull


Well its only my opinion


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## Cadfan

That web enhancement is very nice.

I'll miss losing the Shadowcaster in 4th Ed.  Its easily my favorite class.  I know it has a few mechanical flaws, but it really accomplishes its goals flavor wise.  I hope we eventually see its 4e reincarnation.


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## Mouseferatu

Cadfan said:
			
		

> That web enhancement is very nice.




Thanks. 



> I'll miss losing the Shadowcaster in 4th Ed.  Its easily my favorite class.  I know it has a few mechanical flaws, but it really accomplishes its goals flavor wise.  I hope we eventually see its 4e reincarnation.




I can't make any promises, but rest assured that if the mechanics of 4E allow _any_ room for a modified shadowcaster, I'll be trying hard to talk WotC into letting me recreate it somewhere official.


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## MeditationAsp

I talked my DM into letting me try this class in our upcoming campaign, though he hasn't actually read ToM yet so there's still a bit of hesitation. We don't do too many magic classes in our campaigns so maybe it's just that I'm a bit rusty on the rules, but I've already run into a few issues. I don't know if they fall under fixes, but clarification would certainly help.

Firstly, does the change to the DC of Mysteries that become supernatural also apply to Fundamentals? I've read through the two threads on Shadow Casters that I could find and didn't see an answer either way, but it was late so perhaps I missed it.

Secondly, Quicken Mystery; what's the drawback to this feat? I see that it's once per day and requires three other metashadow feats, but that can't be all. Can this feat really be used to Quicken 9th level mysteries? That seems terribly unbalanced seeing as at least Quicken Spell elevates the spell level and thus can't be used for spells over 5th level. The only way I see that Quicken Mystery is like Quicken Spell is that neither work on spells that have longer than 1-round casting time, which I would assume is to rule out casting a Mystery Quickened and Maximized/Empowered/Extended. I wish that, rather than reference other books, things were simply described completely.

One last question; what are the mechanics of an Extended, Maximized, Reach mystery (or any other combination of metashadow feats that increase casting time)? Impossible, still a full-round casting time, twice that? Again, it's a question of drawbacks. The limited use on metashadow feats isn't so terrible when you take into account that the mysteries have limited use in the first place and the Mysteries that you most likely want to use those on will have 1 or 2 daily uses anyway. Just the increased casting time is hardly a fair trade to, for example, be able to do 30 damage and slow from 30ft with a ranged touch attack for (potentially) 10 attacks with Umbral Touch at 5th level. Pretty sure my DM wouldn't allow that even if the mechanics do. 

If I'm just missing some little something in the rules that should answer all these questions (I do that sometimes), I'd love to know. I've already had to argue for Quicken Mystery just to keep it in play, so anything as far as intent or reasoning for the rulings that might help me make a case to my DM would be much appreciated. I'm very eager to play this class and would love to be able to understand and explain all the nuances that balance the things my DM otherwise might take exception to.


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## Cadfan

MeditationAsp-

1) No.  An apprentice level mystery that becomes supernatural does not get the supernatural save DC.  However, everyone seems to play it that way.  I'd recommend playing it that way because otherwise apprentice level mysteries become useless at high levels, and you're stuck with them.  I don't think the game is going to be broken by a Command effect with a high DC.

2) There is no drawback.  It quickens something once per day.  Its nice, but its not that nice.  Its less powerful on a wizard because quickening your mysteries just uses them up faster, and you don't have very many.

3) It becomes a full round action.  I don't think its got any particular balance problems, myself.  The sheer amount of resources being used up in order to do well in one combat per day does not scare me, particularly given the crappy ranged touch attacks a 1/2 BAB class with 2 main casting stats is going to have.


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## wykthor

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I can't make any promises, but rest assured that if the mechanics of 4E allow _any_ room for a modified shadowcaster, I'll be trying hard to talk WotC into letting me recreate it somewhere official.




GREAT   

A 4e ShadowCaster (from Shadowfell of course!) and the Violet Dawn CS are definitely on my wish list for the next year. Please, do it, Ari


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## jameswilliamogle

OK, this is really old thread res, and I'm sorry for that, but I thought it the best place to question this.

I'm playing a Shadowcaster using Ari's Modified version (post 2 this thread), and I was wondering if the following was intentional:

Rule 3) allows one to jump around in order w/o requiring path-finishing (I think this is fine as is);
Rule 4) requires one to know the two previous level's mysteries BEFORE learning the next higher one (I think this is fine as is);
Rule 6) lets one swap mysteries like a sorcerer (I think there's a problem);

Looking at that, this means that after gaining Greater Shadow Evocation at 11th, I could swap a L1-4 mystery for another L6 maneuver at L12 (like, Greater Shadow Evocation again, for example).

ie, its like the Tome of Battle class's ability to lose previous prerequisite maneuvers to gain higher level maneuvers, as long as the prereq's are all met.


Was this intentional?  Is it even unbalancing?

edit: NM!  I see that sorcerers have to repick the same level spell when they relearn, so it doesn't work the way I thought.


*********************
Also had a question w/o the modification:

Favored Mystery bumps a mystery to the next highest level: spells to Sp, Sp to Su.  It doesn't give extra uses per day (unless its an Su already).  However, the class ability does give extra uses per day, and the only requirement for the extra uses is if the mystery is Sp or Su.  Thus, although the feat doesn't give extra uses, the class ability does.

Is this intentional?

**********************
One other thing: does shadow evocation / greater shadow evocation still allow SR when it becomes an Su through the Favored Mystery feat?


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## Sethvir

And I am going to resurrect this thread once again.  

I just started playing a shadowcaster in a new campaign I just joined.  Been very interesting so far.  The character has made a difference in the way combat flows, particularly when encountering large groups.  He has become a battlefield control expert.  Rooting foes in place, directing them around areas becasue they are aflame, etc.  I just used Shadow Vision last night followed by Killing Shadows to maximum effect, as the character is 9th level, and dealt nearly 40 points of damage on each of two attacks.  

Anyway, so the question I had isn't really related to this, but rather to Feats and interactions with Mysteries.  On page 138 under Mysteries and Paths, talking about the characteristics of Mysteries, it states in the very last bullet that Mysteries cannot benefit from feats that enchance spells, such as metamagic feats.  

The corollary to this is that for the Shadowcaster in the Bonus Feat section it states that the list of bonus feats includes any metamagic feat.  

But if I am a mystery caster, and mystery's don't benefit from Metamagic feats, what's the point of having metamagic feats available as bonus feats?

Or am I missing something?

Thanks.


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## Cadfan

I think that's there to accommodate multiclassers.  The shadowcaster was designed with multiclass very much in mind.

Man, I hope this class gets revived for 4e, this time with functional mechanics.    I should write something up.


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## Knightfall

Mouseferatu said:


> There are three new Paths of mysteries in the _Cityscape_ web enhancement I wrote. You can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a



Excellent. {yoink!}


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## Knightfall

Piratecat said:


> Ari, once you have a chance to respond, I'll slide this over into Rules.



That would be very much appreciated. The thread will disappear here in General really fast.


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## Sethvir

My shadowcaster that I have been playing for the last 7 months or so is approaching epic levels.  He's about to level to 18 and the campaign is going to continue.  

I was wondering if anyone had given any thought to an Epic Progression for this class?  Since the Shadowcasters are a mix of Charisma and Intelligence and effectively casters, I was looking at making a rough progression based on a either the sorcerer or wizard progressions or some combination thereof.  

Any thoughts or input would be welcomed.

Thanks.


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## null

Oooh! My turn to resurrect.

A quick question; how tall exactly are the flames for Blackfire. I've been using three feet but it comes up enough that I'd like to hear something close to official.


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## ValidusVeritas

Sethvir said:


> My shadowcaster that I have been playing for the last 7 months or so is approaching epic levels.  He's about to level to 18 and the campaign is going to continue.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone had given any thought to an Epic Progression for this class?  Since the Shadowcasters are a mix of Charisma and Intelligence and effectively casters, I was looking at making a rough progression based on a either the sorcerer or wizard progressions or some combination thereof.
> 
> Any thoughts or input would be welcomed.
> 
> Thanks.




I played in a 30th Lvl adventure and used a Shadowcaster... basically all we did was make my Save DCs higher as appropriate and everything else that comes with the progression normally and then gave me access to one epic spell. I forget what it's called but its the buff one. My choice was of course CHA and my caster had like a 83 CHA at the end of the day. Which, makes his DCs pretty near impossible to hit, which makes the 8th and 9th Lvl Mysteries really really really good. Esp the save or die one and the prison of cold one that deals them Con dmg.



null said:


> Oooh! My turn to resurrect.
> 
> A quick question; how tall exactly are the flames for Blackfire. I've been using three feet but it comes up enough that I'd like to hear something close to official.





We decided that since the Fire takes up a 5ft square, it would be a cube of fire. And since it's magical fire, it doesn't technically need anything to burn so you can stack the squares into a column. Which really came in handy when I needed to hit a flying dragon with it.


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## mach1.9pants

**Arise, Thrice Dead Thread**


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## Sethvir

Thanks for the replies.  Also in the interim I have discovered over on the Giant In the Playground website forums some work by Realms of Chaos that expands the Shadowcaster into Epic levels and provides a whole host of new Shadow Magic related material.  It's really quite good.  

Descent of Shadows: Project Shadow Returns - Giant in the Playground Forums


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