# how do "ray builds" work?



## loki8481 (Jul 14, 2009)

I've heard them mentioned a lot as I set about building my rogue/wizard/arcane trickster, but how do they actually work?

do ranged weapon feats apply to "ray" spells or something? it seems like there aren't all that many rays to begin with.


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## Eldritch_Lord (Jul 14, 2009)

loki8481 said:


> do ranged weapon feats apply to "ray" spells or something?




Yep.  As clarified in Complete Arcane, any weapon-based feats apply to "weaponlike spells" (i.e., those requiring attack rolls).  That plus Split Ray (which doubles the effectiveness of ray spells vs. similar spells of other types) are really what make ray casters good.


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## Herzog (Jul 14, 2009)

I may be mistaken but:

Basically, "ray" builds are built around the fact that you can apply sneak attack damage to anything that allows you to make an attack roll. (if the requirements for a sneak attack are met, of course) In this case, rays and ranged touch spells. (or normal touch spells, but let's ignore those for a moment)

We start with 'ray of frost'.
While this spell does only 1d3 damage, applying 5d6 sneak attack damage on top of that (which takes on the same damage type, in this case, cold damage) makes that 0th lvl spell suddenly much more interesting. Especially since it doesn't allow for a saving throw for half damage! 

Other spells, whether rays or (ranged) touch attacks, work the same. If the spell does ability damage, the SA damage is negative energy instead. (example: ray of enfeeblement).


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## loki8481 (Jul 14, 2009)

anyone know which book mentions that you can apply sneak attack damage to ranged/touch spells?


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## Herzog (Jul 14, 2009)

Complete Arcane, p.85, 'Weaponlike spells'. 

The same section as referred to by Eldritch_Lord.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 14, 2009)

Herzog said:


> I may be mistaken but:
> 
> Basically, "ray" builds are built around the fact that you can apply sneak attack damage to anything that allows you to make an attack roll. (if the requirements for a sneak attack are met, of course) In this case, rays and ranged touch spells. (or normal touch spells, but let's ignore those for a moment)
> 
> ...




It can be about adding SA damage, but it doesn't have to be.  Also, I used to think ray of enfeeblement was a great source of negative energy SA.  But it's actually an ability penalty, not damage.  So SA probably shouldn't apply at all.

A ray build can also be based around rays tending to do very high single target damage without a save, maximizing the power you pack like a standard evoker build, exept with extra options, like Split Ray.

It could be even more specialized and focus on a single ray spell.  I think Thanee once posted the Scorching Ray build.  The advantage of one spell is that you can take Arcane Thesis on it, and metamagic feats cost one level less to apply.  So you could have an Empowered, Maximized, Searing (ignore fire resistance and most immunities) Scorching Ray at spell level 5, for example.  Unfortunately, in the specific case of Scroching Ray, Split Ray isn't that useful, since it only gives +1 ray.  Which for most cases is double the power, but for scorching ray is only +33%.


The only thing about a ray build to beware is a level 4 Spell Compendium spell called Ray Deflection, which does exactly as you expect.  It'd be worth whatever sum of time and money the DM might impose to allow you to develop a specialized Dispel Magic at the same spell level that functions only against that one pain in the ass spell, but at a massive bonus.


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## Herzog (Jul 14, 2009)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Also, I used to think ray of enfeeblement was a great source of negative energy SA. But it's actually an ability penalty, not damage. So SA probably shouldn't apply at all.



You're right. I was misled by the short description in the sorcerer/wizard spell list:


> Ray of Enfeeblement:  Ray deals 1d6 +1 per two levels Str damage​




While the actual spell description says:


> The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels​



Which doesn't count as damage at all.

Disrupt Undead, on the other hand, is a good ray to add sneak attack damage, if you can somehow bypass the fact you are targeting undead (who are normally immune to sneak attack)
Possibilities: Grave Strike (spell compendium) or Penetrating Strike (DungeonScape rogue alternate class ability allowing you to add half your SA against creatures who would otherwise be immune)​


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## loki8481 (Jul 14, 2009)

how powerful does it end up being in practice? I love the concept, but I'm not playing in a power game perse and I'd hate to end up as the munchkin in a room full of roleplayers.


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## Theroc (Jul 14, 2009)

loki8481 said:


> how powerful does it end up being in practice? I love the concept, but I'm not playing in a power game perse and I'd hate to end up as the munchkin in a room full of roleplayers.





If you love the concept, play one without getting all the optimization tips.  Chances are you'll do something sub-optimal and balance it out, if that's your concern.

Though, I don't get it.  If you love the concept, it sounds like you love the flavor behind it... which is roleplaying.  If you love the roleplaying aspect, wouldn't it being powerful just be gravy on your [insert meal you love without gravy but love more with gravy here]?

Or are you worried the roleplayers will beat you with the RP stick for having a character that is effective?  I'm not trying to be offensive, I am just failing to see the problem.


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## NewJeffCT (Jul 15, 2009)

loki8481 said:


> how powerful does it end up being in practice? I love the concept, but I'm not playing in a power game perse and I'd hate to end up as the munchkin in a room full of roleplayers.




Just because your character is powerful doesn't mean you can't be a roleplayer, too.  Some of the best roleplayers I've played with over the decades have also been dedicated powergamers.


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## irdeggman (Jul 15, 2009)

Also sneak attack with ranged weapons is only good up to 30 feet, so your opponent can pretty much move over to you and put a hurt on you if you don't take him down with the first attack. And since you are "ray" attacker the odds are you do not have a lot of hit points (probably mostly d4s and few d6s) versus d8 and up.

You also have to meet the requisites for getting sneak attack and can't benefit from flanking since you are not making a melee attack (without some special feats or spell that is).

Your opponent also gets bonuses to AC (or penalties to your attack roll) for being in melee and "soft cover" if there is anyone in the way.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 15, 2009)

Herzog said:


> Disrupt Undead, on the other hand, is a good ray to add sneak attack damage, if you can somehow bypass the fact you are targeting undead (who are normally immune to sneak attack)
> Possibilities: Grave Strike (spell compendium) or Penetrating Strike (DungeonScape rogue alternate class ability allowing you to add half your SA against creatures who would otherwise be immune)
> [/LEFT]




My group actually has a long-standing houserule that you can crit and SA with disrupt undead.  It varies with who in the group is DM, but this houserule sometimes extends to any spell or effect that is harmful only to undead and is weapon-like, as well.


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## loki8481 (Jul 15, 2009)

NewJeffCT said:


> Just because your character is powerful doesn't mean you can't be a roleplayer, too.  Some of the best roleplayers I've played with over the decades have also been dedicated powergamers.




I just don't want to accidentally cheese out the game, you know?

maybe I'll skip split ray.


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## fett527 (Jul 15, 2009)

played a warmage that took full advantage of the ray feats.  don't worry about overpowering things.  point blank, precise shot are good things to have


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## gwcummings (Jul 15, 2009)

fett527 said:


> played a warmage that took full advantage of the ray feats.  don't worry about overpowering things.  point blank, precise shot are good things to have




As are Goggles of Foefinding from the MIC which, for 2,500 gp, allow you to ignore anything less than total cover.


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## Shin Okada (Jul 15, 2009)

Another advantage of Ray (Orb) build is that Orb spells ignore SR.


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## Astros1331 (Jul 15, 2009)

Just thought I'd mention that just going ray/orbs really isn't that bad power-wise.  It makes you do a decent amount of damage but that's really all.  A good mounted warrior or any number of others can do it as well or better.  But as somebody before posted it isn't about power its about character, so if you like your concept make it as well as you can, or reduce the power to your group but don't ditch the concept due to power.


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## Herzog (Jul 15, 2009)

For ranged sneak attacks I recommend the Feat 'DeadEye Shot' from PH2.
It allows you to ready an action to gain sneak attack (see feat for more details)

Also, the spell 'Sniper's Shot' from the Spell Compendium allows you to make sneak attacks for one round without range restrictions.

Getting that Persisted (NB:24h duration) costs you a 7th lvl spell slot, and might be considered powergaming, but the basic spell is there for the taking....


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## NewJeffCT (Jul 15, 2009)

loki8481 said:


> I just don't want to accidentally cheese out the game, you know?
> 
> maybe I'll skip split ray.




To be honest, I don't think a ray specialist would be overpowered as their damage is often limited to a single foe, or a small group of foes... it might be great when fighting a single dragon, but against a horde of goblins, ray spells are often not as good as "boom" spells like fireball that cover a large area of effect.

Plus, you always have the change of missing with your ranged touch attack.  Granted, against a dragon with a touch AC of 6, you will only miss on a roll of a "1", but you still have that chance of missing whereas a fireball does not.  However, if you're fighting a powerful dragon, it may likely be protected by "Ray Deflection" or "Scintillating Scales" magic and become much harder to hit with ray spells. ("Sorry, the dragon's touch AC is a 32, you miss.")


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## Particle_Man (Jul 15, 2009)

Well if you want a very simple Ray build that is not at all over-powered, you can just go straight up Warlock (a class from Complete Arcane).  Their eldritch blasts are ranged touch, and damage progressives about like sneak attacks, but it is a standard action so you don't get incredible damage.  Also, you can use wands more easily.  Later, you can make some kewl items.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 16, 2009)

In order to increase the number of rays you have:

1) The Feat Reach Spell turns an ordinary touch spell into a ray.  (I see that one commonly used by Clerics for their healing spells.)

2) As mentioned above, don't forget the other ranged touch attack spells, like the Orbs.

3) Consider multiclassing: the Warlock (as mentioned above) is based around a ranged touch attack for most of its power, and would work well as an alternative primary class "Ray" specialist.  Other classes with "ray-like" abilities include the Cleric and the Psion, as well as certain PrCls (the Pyro and other, variant Kineticists The Mind's Eye: Variant Pyrokineticist Prestige Class (v.3.5)), and anyone with the Spellfire Wielder feat (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Spellfire_Wielder,all).


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## NewJeffCT (Jul 16, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> In order to increase the number of rays you have:
> 
> 1) The Feat Reach Spell turns an ordinary touch spell into a ray.  (I see that one commonly used by Clerics for their healing spells.)
> 
> ...




On #3, since the OP is concerned about powergaming, the warlock might be a good choice for him if the style of campaign is right.  My game is generally built around 1 or 2 big encounters per session, as we have a limited amount of gaming time every 2 weeks. In that situation, the warlock's _eldritch blast_ is generally pretty underpowered in comparison to a sorcerer, psion or wizard.  It has been rare for my party psion or sorcerer to be down to the last of their spells, and most of them will still be more powerful than an equivalent level _eldritch blast._

If the campaign centers around several encounters per day and wizards, sorcerers and psions have to conserve spells/power points, then a warlock can really shine and keep blasting away while every other caster is keeping their powder dry.

And, I know this because in 2 consecutive sessions I had the PCs face off with bad guys that first had a sorceress minion, then a warlock minion as magic support.  The bad guys with a sorceress minion were far more effective as opponents than the ones with a warlock minion, despite the warlock's party being tougher overall CR-wise.


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## Shin Okada (Jul 16, 2009)

Particle_Man said:


> Well if you want a very simple Ray build that is not at all over-powered, you can just go straight up Warlock (a class from Complete Arcane).  Their eldritch blasts are ranged touch, and damage progressives about like sneak attacks, but it is a standard action so you don't get incredible damage.




Chasuble of Fell Power + Empower Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) + Maximize Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast)

Then use Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat to make the same attack again.

A Warlock can inflict good amount of damages when really needed.

Oh. And Eldritch Chain + Utterdark Blast is really nice.


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## NewJeffCT (Jul 16, 2009)

Shin Okada said:


> Chasuble of Fell Power + Empower Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) + Maximize Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
> 
> Then use Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat to make the same attack again.
> 
> ...




I stand corrected - a quickened and maximized eldritch blast is pretty powerful, since it can be followed up by another maximized eldritch blast as a standard action.  I liked that idea so much that I plugged a level 17 warlock into heroforge and gave him the chasuble of fell power, greater, so he would do 120 points of damage on 2 hits.  (8d6+2d6 maximized is 60)

Empower the Eldritch Blast as well and it would be 120 points, plus another 10d6 for the empowermentx2.


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## Particle_Man (Jul 17, 2009)

It is a neat trick, but you can only pull the "2 empowered maximized blasts" trick once per day, and then you can do the half as effective "1 empowered maximized blast" trick next round, and then you are back to square 1.


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## NewJeffCT (Jul 17, 2009)

Particle_Man said:


> It is a neat trick, but you can only pull the "2 empowered maximized blasts" trick once per day, and then you can do the half as effective "1 empowered maximized blast" trick next round, and then you are back to square 1.




Good point, but you can still Quicken & Empower an unlimited amount of times, and doing 30d6 damage per round is still pretty hefty - an average of 105 points with no save, though the warlock would still have to beat SR and would be partly defeated by a Psionic Intellect Fortress, which can be manifested as an immediate action.

Granted, at that high a level, a necromancer is likely doing heftier potential damage on Ray/Touch Spells (Disintegrate, Horrid Wilting, Finger of Death, Avasculate, Night's Caress), and possibly also causing somebody to lose Con points or become Sickened or Nauseated.  The warlock usually would have to substitute his damage for the effect that nauseates, sickens or frightens instead.


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## rgard (Jul 18, 2009)

To get more Ray spells per day, you could play a Domain Wizard (UA and the SRD) who specializes in rays:

Ray Domain
0. Ray of Frost
1. Ray of Enfeeblement
2. Scorching Ray
3. Ray of Exhaustion
4. Enervation
5. xxx
6. Disintegrate
7. xxx
8. Polar Ray
9. xxx

xxx = I can't think of a ray spell of that level, but you can probably find ray spells in your books to fill the holes.

Domain wizards get one extra spell per day per level, but don't give anything up in exchange.  The Domain Wizard option is a no brainer if you aren't playing a Specialized Wizard.

Thanks,
Rich


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 18, 2009)

Good idea!  Let me browse Spell Compendium quick for alternate spell level ideas besides those...

0: Electric Jolt
1: Targeting Ray, Ray of Flame, Ray of Clumsiness
2: Distracting Ray, Ray of Stupidity, Sting Ray, Ray of Ice, Ray of Sickness, Ray of Weakness
3: Ray of Dizziness, Rust Ray
4: Ray of Deanimation
5: Moonbow, Prismatic Ray
6: Ruby Ray of Reversal, Ray of Light, Ray of Entropy
7: Antimagic Ray, Stun Ray, Prismatic Eye? (seriously, not sure if it counts or not), Avasculate
8: Avascular Mass
9: ?  Nothing that I saw

EDIT: Energy Drain from the PH gives at least one level 9 ray option

So, lots of themes and options for a ray domain.  Assuming you wanted a mixture of all kinds of rays, could do something like:
0: Ray of Frost
1: Targeting Ray
2: Scorching Ray
3: Ray of Dizziness
4: Ray of Deanimation
5: Prismatic Ray
6: Disintigrate
7: Stun Ray
8: Avascular Mass*
9: Energy Drain

*It's evil aligned, which I'd rather avoid, but polar ray just sucks so much...  If you do put polar ray in, switch ray of frost with electric jolt, just to keep the variety thing open.  Same reason I didn't go with enervation at level 4.


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## rgard (Jul 18, 2009)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Good idea!  Let me browse Spell Compendium quick for alternate spell level ideas besides those...
> 
> 0: Electric Jolt
> 1: Targeting Ray, Ray of Flame, Ray of Clumsiness
> ...





Great additions.  I've been meaning to scour my other WotC books and 3rd party stuff (3rd party may be OGL) for more ray spells.  I played a Wiz/Ur-Priest/MT and had the split ray feat, but never maximized a ray build.  I'm motivated to do all that now.

XPs for you in a sec.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Particle_Man (Jul 18, 2009)

NewJeffCT said:


> Good point, but you can still Quicken & Empower an unlimited amount of times, and doing 30d6 damage per round is still pretty hefty - an average of 105 points with no save, though the warlock would still have to beat SR and would be partly defeated by a Psionic Intellect Fortress, which can be manifested as an immediate action.




I am missing something.  I don't see how the Warlock can use Quicken and Empower an unlimited amount of times, since Quicken Spell-like Ability and Empower Spell-like Ability are feats that only allow you to use them three times a day.

And Vitriolic Blast is the quickest way to beat SR (although that uses up your essence modification and some enemies laugh at acid attacks).


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## Particle_Man (Jul 18, 2009)

Duplicate post.


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## NewJeffCT (Jul 18, 2009)

Particle_Man said:


> I am missing something.  I don't see how the Warlock can use Quicken and Empower an unlimited amount of times, since Quicken Spell-like Ability and Empower Spell-like Ability are feats that only allow you to use them three times a day.
> 
> And Vitriolic Blast is the quickest way to beat SR (although that uses up your essence modification and some enemies laugh at acid attacks).




you're right - Oddly, the feat descriptor in my Heroforge said 3 times/day for Maximize, but not for Empower & Quicken.


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