# Pathfinder 2 Character Sheet #2: Kyra, Human Cleric



## Aguirre Melchiors (Jul 13, 2018)

is just me, but pathfinder has a lot of flutuation bonuses? i mean
for the player is kinda of ok
but for the DM, tracking all of this stuff will be a pain


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## UngeheuerLich (Jul 13, 2018)

If you like that kind of detail it seems quite a good atate for a first playtest. I believe a few changes will happen but that game seems fun if you want that kind of game.


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## Kaodi (Jul 13, 2018)

Light seems like it could be a good signalling spell now. Cast Light on an object and give it to the innkeeper. Go into dungeon. If the light goes out before a day has passed assume it means "We're screwed, send help?"


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## houser2112 (Jul 13, 2018)

I hope they ditch the "X Casting" in the spell statblocks. It's clutter and redundant. "[A] V [A] S [A] M" would be better. You only have to define "V", "S", and "M" once in the Spellcasting chapter.

Is the unmodified damage for sling bullets 1d6 + 1, or is this evidence of Dex-to-damage being a thing?

These character sheets only show final results. I like to show the math on my character sheets.


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## Blue (Jul 13, 2018)

In this and the Alchemist yesterday I see a lot of +1 bonuses.  Really, I don't want to bother with +1.  Either make a bonus meaningful or eliminate it and the rules/time/effort/tracking load that comes with it.


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## Ghal Maraz (Jul 13, 2018)

houser2112 said:


> Is the unmodified damage for sling bullets 1d6 + 1, or is this evidence of Dex-to-damage being a thing.




The sling has the *Propulsive* trait. 
If you look at the end of the second page, it's explained what it does: "Add half your Strength bonus to damage rolls".

Kyra's got Strength 14, so bonus +2, halved for the Propulsive trait/tag.


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## Jester David (Jul 13, 2018)

Looks like no at-will offensive cantrip magic for Pathfinder 2. Kyra of the god of fire can shoot a _fire ray_ 5/day, assuming she doesn't use her spell points elsewhere... :/

Part of me wishes Pathfinder 2 had dropped the distinction between Ability Scores and Ability Modifiers. That's always a funky needless distinction, a sacred cow of D&D that Pathfinder no longer needs to keep alive. Especially as rolling for stats isn't likely to be expected.

_Stabilise _takes two actions and brings someone from 0 to 1 hp at range. It's neat that you can always bring someone back into the fight, but that seems like 5e wack-a-mole healing turned up to 11.


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## Anthro78 (Jul 13, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Looks like no at-will cantrip magic for Pathfinder 2. Kyra of the god of fire can shoot a _fire ray_ 5/day, assuming she doesn't use her spell points elsewhere... :/.




Um, re-read the second sheet.  She has cantrips, like always.  Fire ray is a domain power which even in PF1 is only available a set number of times per day, usually based on Wisdom for clerics.  There's very little change there.


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## Jester David (Jul 13, 2018)

Anthro78 said:


> Um, re-read the second sheet.  She has cantrips, like always.  Fire ray is a domain power which even in PF1 is only available a set number of times per day, usually based on Wisdom for clerics.  There's very little change there.




Sorry, typo. The word "offensive" was missed with a last second rephrase. I meant that there was non at-will offensive magic. 

It looks like PF2 will be keeping the wizard and sorcerer breaking out the sling or light crossbow for at-will attacks.


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## LazarX (Jul 13, 2018)

Anthro78 said:


> Um, re-read the second sheet. She has cantrips, like always. Fire ray is a domain power which even in PF1 is only available a set number of times per day, usually based on Wisdom for clerics. There's very little change there.




The real change is in the major nerf to channeling.


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## HallowedError (Jul 13, 2018)

Jester David;7462499
[I said:
			
		

> Stabilise [/I]takes two actions and brings someone from 0 to 1 hp at range. It's neat that you can always bring someone back into the fight, but that seems like 5e wack-a-mole healing turned up to 11.




Actually in 2E healing someone does not immediately make them conscious. I unfortunately cannot remember exactly how it works but I think they still have to make a save to regain conciousness. Also in one of the playtests the GM ruled that it takes an action to pick up you weapon and another to actually stand up. 
So even when they do regain consciousness they aren't at 100% on top of retaining the their spot in the 'dying' states if they go back down right away.


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## jmucchiello (Jul 13, 2018)

So, skills at first level cannot be "expert" "master" or "legendary" (Or whatever the grades of skill mastery are called. I don't remember at the moment)?As neither the cleric or the goblin have had any skills marked with mastery beyond "trained".


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## lightblade (Jul 13, 2018)

Jester David said:


> It looks like PF2 will be keeping the wizard and sorcerer breaking out the sling or light crossbow for at-will attacks.



I believe wizards and sorcerers will get attack cantrips worth using. It's possible that Clerics can get them as well, but Kyra is a more martially-minded cleric and between her reasonable melee (scimitar) and fire rays, they elected to fill her cantrips with standard stuff (Detect Magic, Light, Stabilize, and New Resistance is a pretty iconic set of cleric cantrips).
Given that Sorcerers can pick their spell list by choice of bloodline, I hope that each spell-list will have at least one attack cantrip.


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## Bill Elmer (Jul 13, 2018)

Looks like a herolab/character-builder type app to print the text of spells, items, powers, etc will be really handy.

Yuck, Detect Magic looks really tedious to use. It needs options to restrict the area to line, cone, maybe a single square or item.


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## Mark Craddock (Jul 13, 2018)

I get a DnD 4E vibe from the breakdown of the Feats, Powers, and Spells. I don't think it's actually that close, but I still feel it.

These previews have really helped me understand it's not the game for me. I appreciate that and hope it helps other find it for them.


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## Jer (Jul 13, 2018)

Mark Craddock said:


> I get a DnD 4E vibe from the breakdown of the Feats, Powers, and Spells. I don't think it's actually that close, but I still feel it.




I can see what you mean, I think.  I don't get much of a 4e vibe at all from the mechanics themselves, but I am kind of getting a "game designers writing for other game designers" vibe from the way things are written up that 4e also gives me.

I actually like that vibe - mechanically PF2 is probably not going to be any of my tables' thing because it seems to lean heavily into the resource management game which the players at my main table are just not interested in at all, and it's "not D&D" which is the only thing that the kids I run games for want to play.  But it's definitely looking like a system that I want to grok for the mechanical ideas that I might be able to steal.


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## Adso (Jul 13, 2018)

Jer said:


> I actually like that vibe - mechanically PF2 is probably not going to be any of my tables' thing because it seems to lean heavily into the resource management game which the players at my main table are just not interested in at all, and it's "not D&D" which is the only thing that the kids I run games for want to play.  But it's definitely looking like a system that I want to grok for the mechanical ideas that I might be able to steal.




I could point out that all games are different forms of resource management, but that's an academic or philosophical point. 

We are trying to limit the abundance of different types of long-term resource management that was often all over the play in P1. Resonance has a lot to do with that, wrapping up a bunch of similar mechanics in spell points is another way. Like nearly all playtests, what you see is a draft toward those design goals. Even those of us working on it are unsure how the final mechanics will be manifested. Names might change, the structure might change, maybe we need no worry, and everything looks fine. Hence, playtesting. 

That said, we don't want resource management to burden storytelling. We would rather it be a cool and exciting part of storytelling without creating corner cases and exploits that foil storytelling. 


Stephen
Pathfinder RPG Senior Designer and map guy


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## The Human Target (Jul 13, 2018)

Bill Elmer said:


> Looks like a herolab/character-builder type app to print the text of spells, items, powers, etc will be really handy.
> 
> Yuck, Detect Magic looks really tedious to use. It needs options to restrict the area to line, cone, maybe a single square or item.




Waiting around while someone detects magic over and over again square by square seems like the definition of tedious.


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## TwoSix (Jul 13, 2018)

Jer said:


> I can see what you mean, I think.  I don't get much of a 4e vibe at all from the mechanics themselves, but I am kind of getting a "game designers writing for other game designers" vibe from the way things are written up that 4e also gives me.



I feel more like its too much of a "graphic design for other graphic designers".  The constant rectangles and the blocky font are giving it too much of the "antiseptic" vibe that caused such consternation in 4e.  You want the info the be usable, but you want a little messiness in the printed book to make reading the book feel more like exploration and less like research.


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## Tony Vargas (Jul 13, 2018)

TwoSix said:


> I feel more like its too much of a "graphic design for other graphic designers".  The constant rectangles and the blocky font are giving it too much of the "antiseptic" vibe that caused such consternation in 4e.  You want the info the be usable, but you want a little messiness in the printed book to make reading the book feel more like exploration and less like research.



 Rule book is in large part a reference manual, it'd be nice to have it actually work as one, IMHO.

(Yeah, I get that some product lines (WoD) at some times (90s) did super-well by being very cover-to-cover readable, and virtually worthless as actual rulebooks. )


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## TwoSix (Jul 13, 2018)

Tony Vargas said:


> Rule book is in large part a reference manual, it'd be nice to have it actually work as one, IMHO.
> 
> (Yeah, I get that some product lines (WoD) at some times (90s) did super-well by being very cover-to-cover readable, and virtually worthless as actual rulebooks. )



Well, this is still only the playtest, I feel like they'll take another aesthetic pass before actual release.  I'm just throwing it out there that a small loss in utility is worthwhile if there's a large gain in the aesthetic pleasure of actually using the book.


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## Jer (Jul 13, 2018)

TwoSix said:


> I feel more like its too much of a "graphic design for other graphic designers".  The constant rectangles and the blocky font are giving it too much of the "antiseptic" vibe that caused such consternation in 4e.  You want the info the be usable, but you want a little messiness in the printed book to make reading the book feel more like exploration and less like research.




And see, this is exactly what I don't want in a character sheet (or a monster write-up for that matter).  I want everything laid out clearly and explicitly - if I have to spend time hunting around to find things in play I'm going to get frustrated instead of having fun.  Especially if I find the thing that I knew was there two rounds after it was needed.


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## Bill Elmer (Jul 13, 2018)

The Human Target said:


> Waiting around while someone detects magic over and over again square by square seems like the definition of tedious.



 By "Option" I meant in addition to, not instead of.


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## jhallum (Jul 13, 2018)

Blue said:


> In this and the Alchemist yesterday I see a lot of +1 bonuses.  Really, I don't want to bother with +1.  Either make a bonus meaningful or eliminate it and the rules/time/effort/tracking load that comes with it.




I'm the opposite, give me bonuses, none of this advantage business.  I want more fine grained control than adding a dice or two.


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## nightspaladin (Jul 13, 2018)

Mark Craddock said:


> I get a DnD 4E vibe from the breakdown of the Feats, Powers, and Spells. I don't think it's actually that close, but I still feel it.
> 
> These previews have really helped me understand it's not the game for me. I appreciate that and hope it helps other find it for them.




I'm getting a very 4e vibe to pf2. Fighters with combo attacks, paladins with powers and not spells. Rangers as martial only. Everything defined as a distinct action and action economy a big part of the math.  The key wording of everything.... 

Now that being said... It's awesome. I loved 4e. Really really like 5e as a simple throwback to 2e in ways. But a crunchy tactical game is awesome..


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## Staffan (Jul 13, 2018)

Tony Vargas said:


> Rule book is in large part a reference manual, it'd be nice to have it actually work as one, IMHO.
> 
> (Yeah, I get that some product lines (WoD) at some times (90s) did super-well by being very cover-to-cover readable, and virtually worthless as actual rulebooks. )



On the board game side, Fantasy Flight is doing pretty well with having two rule books included in most games (at least the heavier ones): one learn-to-play book that explains what the game is all about and how it's played, and another rules reference that nails things down in a far more rigorous fashion. I don't know how well that would work in RPGs though.


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## Blue (Jul 13, 2018)

jhallum said:


> I'm the opposite, give me bonuses, none of this advantage business.  I want more fine grained control than adding a dice or two.




Then this seems a good fit at your table, and many more.  Enjoy!

We've both got valid approaches, and the good thing about our abundance of games out there is choice and the chance to fid your specific fit.

Though you did miss the mark slightly - my preferred d20 is 13th Age, so no advantage for me.  Instead, it's +2s, but a lot fewer of them to keep track of.  I value speed in combat over the fine granularity - but that's no universal truth, the precise control of this also makes many happy.

In other words, all good!


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## Charlaquin (Jul 13, 2018)

Count me in the pro-practical design camp. I absolutely love the little d20 symbol next to the bonuses for things. I regularly have players ask me what die they have to roll for a [whatever] check, despite regular reminders that attacks, checks, and saves always use the d20. Having a symbol right next to the bonus, so it can be read as “Athletics: d20 +3” or whatever is absolutely brilliant.


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## Tony Vargas (Jul 13, 2018)

Staffan said:


> On the board game side, Fantasy Flight is doing pretty well with having two rule books included in most games (at least the heavier ones): one learn-to-play book that explains what the game is all about and how it's played, and another rules reference that nails things down in a far more rigorous fashion. I don't know how well that would work in RPGs though.



 It rings a bell, like some game or starter set has done it sometime...

...maybe it wouldn't be great for D&D, because of shelf-presence...  well, and because 5e's style of rulings-over-rules and make-the-game-your-own all but precludes making reference to the starting-point rules text in that fashion.  But, maybe an AL Rules Manual?  Maybe an App? ...

...of course, Pathfinder's fan base is very experienced & savy, so they wouldn't really need the former sort of book, and they're used to not having the latter... so status quo, all the way?


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## Kurviak (Jul 14, 2018)

Blue said:


> In this and the Alchemist yesterday I see a lot of +1 bonuses.  Really, I don't want to bother with +1.  Either make a bonus meaningful or eliminate it and the rules/time/effort/tracking load that comes with it.




In the pf2 play test a +1 bonus is much more powerful than in pf1 given the way critics functions in this rule set


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## Blue (Jul 14, 2018)

Kurviak said:


> In the pf2 play test a +1 bonus is much more powerful than in pf1 given the way critics functions in this rule set




That's a good point - you're no longer just looking at a boolean pass/fail, there's also additional thresholds of success and failure.  Hmm, thanks for pointing that out.

Part of my hesitation is having to track lots of little bonuses instead of just a few meaningful ones, so we'll still have to see if it gets nitpicky and overfilled, but it isn't trivial as expected because of the mechanical advances they are doing around the rolls.


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## Staffan (Jul 14, 2018)

Tony Vargas said:


> It rings a bell, like some game or starter set has done it sometime...




Pathfinder's Beginner Box does something like it. However, it fails somewhat in that beginner-Pathfinder is not quite the same as proper Pathfinder - for example, it does not have attacks of opportunity, and instead outright forbids casting spells or using ranged weapons in melee. That makes its use as a teaching tool somewhat limited - something the developers have stated themselves,  and they've said that if/when they make a similar product for PF2, it will follow the actual rules.

You also have the Beginner boxes for the various Star Wars games from FFG. They all follow the same formula: present a series of encounters that gradually explain how the game works, and they also offer a web enhancement that provides further adventures once you know the game. Again, they suffer slightly from not quite following the "proper" rules - the most annoying bits from my perspective is that they use a generic Pilot skill (instead of having it split into Pilot (Planetary) and Pilot (Space) as the "real" game does) and that the pregens use custom talent trees that mix and match from the various subclasses. These are both issues that would create difficulties in "graduating" to the "real" game. Certainly not insurmountable difficulties, but difficulties. That said, the Age of Rebellion beginner box followed by the web enhancement adventure is some of the best fun I've had as a GM, and I strongly recommend it to anyone who's up for some Rebel Alliance action.


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## Tony Vargas (Jul 14, 2018)

Staffan said:


> Pathfinder's Beginner Box does something like it.



 Nah, it's an older, dustier bell than that ...


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## benofwater (Jul 15, 2018)

*Wasted words*



houser2112 said:


> I hope they ditch the "X Casting" in the spell statblocks. It's clutter and redundant. "[A] V [A] S [A] M" would be better. You only have to define "V", "S", and "M" once in the Spellcasting chapter.
> 
> Is the unmodified damage for sling bullets 1d6 + 1, or is this evidence of Dex-to-damage being a thing?
> 
> These character sheets only show final results. I like to show the math on my character sheets.




Space on the page has always been an issue for Paizo.  The often say in Threads that they did something because they ran out of space, so I agree that they need to use it wisely.  "Casting" does not need to be repeated.


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## benofwater (Jul 15, 2018)

So, what is the meaning of "Power" on the Cleric's spell list?  It shows Fire Ray as a power; is that different from a spell?


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## Charlaquin (Jul 15, 2018)

benofwater said:


> So, what is the meaning of "Power" on the Cleric's spell list?  It shows Fire Ray as a power; is that different from a spell?




Yes and no. A power is considered a spell for the purpose of rules that care about whether or not something is a spell (so, for example, they can be Counterspelled.) However, powers are not prepared in spell slots like other spells are. Instead, they are cast by spending Spell Points. This system is meant to unify all the various spell-like abilities classes might grant that each had their own individually limited uses, such as a Cleric's Channel Divinity.


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## beldoraQueenofOurik (Jul 15, 2018)

I think the +1 is for Propulsive which appears all the way at the end of the second page.





houser2112 said:


> I hope they ditch the "X Casting" in the spell statblocks. It's clutter and redundant. "[A] V [A] S [A] M" would be better. You only have to define "V", "S", and "M" once in the Spellcasting chapter.
> 
> Is the unmodified damage for sling bullets 1d6 + 1, or is this evidence of Dex-to-damage being a thing?
> 
> These character sheets only show final results. I like to show the math on my character sheets.


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## MrJog83 (Aug 5, 2018)

Where is the extra +1 coming from on her attacks? I would think the scimitar would be +2 and the sling would be +1.


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## mellored (Aug 5, 2018)

MrJog83 said:


> Where is the extra +1 coming from on her attacks? I would think the scimitar would be +2 and the sling would be +1.



You get +level to everything.

So level 1 is +1.


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## MrJog83 (Aug 5, 2018)

mellored said:


> You get +level to everything.
> 
> So level 1 is +1.




Thanks. I've spent an hour trying to figure out where that was coming from.


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