# Cost for an item of permanent enlarge?



## RangerWickett (Mar 4, 2004)

From what I can tell, an item that grants permanent enlarge person (1st level spell) would only cost 2000gp.  You get +2 Str, -2 Dex, +5 ft. reach, -1 to attacks and AC, and -4 to Hide.  Now sure, this item isn't great for everyone, but imagine giving a spiked chain whirlwind attack warrior this, increasing his reach to 20 ft.  Seems a bit good for just 2000gp, right?


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## heliopolix (Mar 4, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> ...but imagine giving a spiked chain whirlwind attack warrior this, increasing his reach to 20 ft.





The guy that wants this is the Spiked-chain-combat-reflexes-improved-trip-monkey. I had a PC IMC who had the party cleric cast Enlarge person (from Str domain) on him, and the effects are scary. 

As to the item though, the bonuses truly come to this : +0 to hit,  +1 to damage (or possibly +2 w/ 2H wpn, depending on your str score), -2 AC, 2x your normal reach, -x to hide,  based on new size, +4 to checks with size modifier (trip, disarm, grapple, etc), increased weapon damage die for melee/ projectile weapons (but not thrown weapons). This can be overpriced or underpriced depending on who uses it. If you set it at 4,000 (same as gaunt. +2 str), then pretty much every fighter wants it. If you set it at 16,000 (belt +4 str), then the damage-dealing types begin to wonder if the damage from +4str is better than the + size bonuses, but the Special Attack Monkeys still love it (+2 str = +1 modifier,  plus +4 size modifier, equals +5 on most special attacks).  I would set the item as a Belt (so no stacking w/ Belt o' G.S +4 or +6), and charge 16,000 for it. Just my take, and not an official ruling. By the RAW, you are correct at the 2k price tag. But remember that the item creation cost tables are only *GM guidelines* to help him figure the cost of a custom magic item (which this definitely is), so i guess that the 2k price is subjective as well.. oh well. Hope this helps.

Jeff


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## Inconsequenti-AL (Mar 4, 2004)

It certainly would be pretty awesome for combat. 

You probably shouldn't wear it all the time - I'd imagine being enlarged is going to make most normal people freak out. Innkeepers probably aren't going to let you a room - stables, if you're lucky.

I'd give a player a warning - "I think that item might be very powerful at that price. Wonder why nobody builds them?"

If they decided to push ahead and build it without without doing any research, etc. Then I'd let them find out why. 


Most likely a nasty little idea that cropped up in another system (Ars Magica) - That particular item has detrimental side effects (makes you shrink over time). And it's addictive. 

You'd need to spend at least an extra XX,000 Gp designing a version without those drawbacks.


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## Diirk (Mar 4, 2004)

Or you could just pay a mage to permancy your enlarge person.... 450 gold for the spell itself, then another 2500 for the XP if you're asking an NPC, perhaps less if you have a wizard in the party and he's friendly.


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## UltimaGabe (Mar 4, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> From what I can tell, an item that grants permanent enlarge person (1st level spell) would only cost 2000gp.  You get +2 Str, -2 Dex, +5 ft. reach, -1 to attacks and AC, and -4 to Hide.  Now sure, this item isn't great for everyone, but imagine giving a spiked chain whirlwind attack warrior this, increasing his reach to 20 ft.  Seems a bit good for just 2000gp, right?




Actually, it would cost 4000. Permanent duration items have their costs increased if the duration is less than 1 hour/level.

It still seems a bit inexpensive, but talk to your DM about it. After all, it's his say either way.


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## jgsugden (Mar 4, 2004)

This needs repeating ... the formulas for magic items are *guidelines*. They do not work in all instances. If followed without tempering, they often result in unbalanced items.

Design the item you have in mind. Apply the formula. Then, look at items on the appropriate magic item tables with that price. Does your item seem to good in comparrison? If so, then jack up the price until it seems fair. 

This is the *only* way to go if you want balanced items. Getting 'option reach' and extra damage permanentlyfor 2K or 4K gold is ridiculous, even 3with the AC and area occupied drawbacks. That ability is useful in every round of combat and has a significant effect on the battle. The price should be in the 10s of thousands of gold pieces ... I know my dwarven fighter would trade his ring of major elemental resistance (28,000 gp) for it ...


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## The Souljourner (Mar 4, 2004)

As jgsugden said, magic item prices are guidelines.

How much would I charge?  Hmm... belt of giant strength +2 is 4000gp.  Start there.  Of course, the strength bonus is a size bonus, not enhancement, so double the price for that is 8,000...  now you also get natural reach and increased die damage and bonuses to a bunch of special attacks....  this is hard to compute, but bigger damage dice is almost always +1 or 2 damage on average call that 4000.  Reach is damn useful... call that 10,000.  There are drawbacks, but they're pretty minimal for anyone who would actually want to use this thing and are easily balanced out by the bonuses to special attacks, so that sounds about good.

So... 22,000gp.  I think that's fair and balanced.  In general I don't bother with the item slot restrictions... I mean, what makes the belt slot more appropriate for strength than the shirt slot?  

So, that's how I'd price it... but then again, I pretty much never go by what the book says, I base it on what exists, and what I would trade for it.

-The Souljourner


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## Spatzimaus (Mar 4, 2004)

Since the thread was started by someone with way more posts than the rest of us combined and who writes homebrews and story hours, I think we can leave off the usual "they're just GUIDELINES!" rant.  It's been stated enough times.

Anyway, IMO this is just yet another spell to add to the list of "Things That'd Be Broken If We Made It Unlimited/Continuous".  It's a long list.  Reach is a huge benefit.  The AC/attack/hide penalties are minor.  The larger equipment needed for your new size would be prohibitive IF the spell didn't increase your equipment with you, but it does.  For many people, the +2 STR is easily worth the -2 DEX.  So no, I would never let anyone have this at will for only 4000gp.

Issues like this are why, IMC, we long ago added two house rules:
> If you want an item that reproduces a spell in an unlimited or continuous fashion, it has to be a Ring or a Rod.  All existing Wondrous items (other than the straight stat-boosting ones) that work this way are changed to 5/day.
> The minimum caster level for an item is the level needed to qualify for its Feat (wondrous 3, arms 5, ring 12, etc), and all effects on an item must have the same caster level.

So, unless you want to pay 24,000 gp for a CL 12 ring that casts Enlarge Person at will, you'll make do with 5 or fewer uses per day, each of which only lasts a few minutes.  Far more manageable for the DM, too.


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## jgsugden (Mar 4, 2004)

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> Since the thread was started by someone with way more posts than the rest of us combined and who writes homebrews and story hours, I think we can leave off the usual "they're just GUIDELINES!" rant.  It's been stated enough times.



2 points:

1.) He asked if we thought it was too much for 2,000 gp. The 'guideline' discussion falls directly out of that question. Yes, it is too cheap because it is a guideline number that fails to do its job.

2.) Other people read the thread. If a newbie read this thread and said, "Everyone says this thing is too strong for 2K GP! I bet I can slip it by my DM!", then our guideline conversation would be relevant to the DMs response of, "That seems too strong, where did you hear about it? What did the people on the internet think of it?"

I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but once a question is asked, a thorough answer is not out of line, even if the person asking the question is a net guru on the subject.


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## dcollins (Mar 4, 2004)

As jgsugden said, and Souljourner also said, and Spatzimaus warned us not to repeat -- new magic item formulas are just guidelines.

I'll quote Monte Cook ( http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly3.html ):



> How do you figure Market Value?
> 
> That's really the trick, isn't it? Some days I look at Table 8-40 on page 242 of the DMG and wish it wasn't there at all. At these times, I wish the rule was simply, “Match your new item as closely as you can with an existing item, then give it a similar price.” That's really the ultimate pricing rule. It can get you into trouble (as it did with me and boots of striding and springing), but generally it will give you fewer headaches than using the table. At the very least, we should have called the table "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" rather than "Calculating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
> ...
> The most important thing to remember is, Table 8-40 doesn't determine prices. It suggests them. Don't say, "Wow, these shoes of continual improved invisibility sure are cheap." Do say, "Hmm, these formulas don't work when it comes to spells like improved invisibility." When someone asks me, "Can I really make an item that will cast cure light wounds at will, activated by a command word, for only 900 gp?"I now reply, "Only if your DM isn't paying attention."




Byu the way, here's the same discussion as held last week: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78394


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## Spatzimaus (Mar 4, 2004)

jgsugden said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but once a question is asked, a thorough answer is not out of line, even if the person asking the question is a net guru on the subject.




I started writing the post before either you or Souljourner posted your responses, then went to lunch.  It wasn't intended as a rebuke of either of you, it was an attempt to keep the thread from being derailed in the usual "the price is whatever the DM says it is!" debate, by pointing out that the person who started the thread is experienced enough to have heard that debate before (after all, it seems to come up every day or two on this board).
So, I wanted to mention the guideline thing in passing, and move on to the meat of the question, which IMO was how Enlarge Person is one of the spells that's clearly too good for a cheap item.  Then again, there's really not much to say about that.


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## Nail (Mar 4, 2004)

As a house rule aside (with the required nod to "the price formulas are only guidelines"):

I require spells that power "continuous" magic items to have a spell duration of 1 hr/level.  That often takes care of these strange uber-powerful 1st level spells.  An _Enlarge Person_ -type spell that lasts 1 hour per level is at least a 3rd level spell, right?  (If not 4th.....)

Therefore the price would be: 2000gp * 5th C.L. * 3rd Spl Lvl = 30,000 gp. 

A simple and effective fix.


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## Dthamilaye (Mar 5, 2004)

Bit OT, but:

IMC, a half-dragon wanted to go from medium to large. Permanently.

I consulted the ritual chapter in Savage Species and came to following conclusion (IIRC):

2300 xp, and around 67000 gp, including the caster payment + the ritual stuff. 
That gave him the exact benefits of the Enlarge spell. (plus wings from half-dragon and better damage dice for natural attacks).

I gave him this without raising his LA. I gave an option that if he wants to become large by stats too (Ie, Monster manual medium->large stat difference), he would have to raise his LA by 1 too. Ie, he would lose his next level. He can do the 'secondary' ritual later on, and that will cost him bit more xp and money (In addition to 1 level), and it will only give the difference between the Enlarge spell bonuses and the 'Real' medium-to-large bonuses.


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## Darklone (Mar 5, 2004)

I don't like these MM stat differences between medium and large... too much. Strangely they only use half of these values for many monsters. That looks much more appropriate... if I look at halflings and gnomes as PCs...


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## PugioilAudacio (Mar 5, 2004)

Well, something similar to this occured in our campaign. Our dwarven fighter/barbarian wanted to get larger, so he had an item made that casts enlarge person. However, as he made it a caster level 1 item, it only lasts for 6 rounds. Every 6 rounds he needs to activate it again to stay large. Our DM allowed him to do this using the base forumulas - I think the item was 1,800. I posted this on the wizards forums and it was generally agreed that this wasn't that overpowered - as he had to re-activate it every minute.

Desperate to permanently increase his size, he created a prestige class that would eventually enlarge him. Here's the link:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=160901


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## Lamoni (Mar 5, 2004)

I see that enlarge person would be too good for 2,000 gp... but what about a reduce person item?  It would be awful to give to melee fighters, but it would be nice for a sorcerer.  It would give a +2 AC (1 from size, 1 from dex), +5 to hide, +1 reflex saving throw at a cost of only having worse strength which would reduce carrying capacity and any weapon damage... both of which are not very big drawbacks for a sorcerer.  Would you still charge more than 4,000?


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## Nail (Mar 5, 2004)

Lamoni said:
			
		

> I see that enlarge person would be too good for 2,000 gp... but what about a reduce person item?  It would be awful to give to melee fighters, but it would be nice for a sorcerer.  It would give a +2 AC (1 from size, 1 from dex), +5 to hide, +1 reflex saving throw at a cost of only having worse strength which would reduce carrying capacity and any weapon damage... both of which are not very big drawbacks for a sorcerer.  Would you still charge more than 4,000?




Yep. For the same reasons.

Look, the bottom line is: spells that have short durations are not well balanced as continuous magic items.


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## Scion (Mar 7, 2004)

Like the new animal buffs. +4 enhancement to a stat is so very broken.

wait, that was a little too sarcastic 

While it is hard to price such an item properly there are a lot of things to take into account with this one. It seems that people put vastly different values to the various abilities (to the point of one poster saying that the drawbacks were minimal, which I dont agree with at all).

Is it worth 4k? no problem there, is it worth 8k? 10k? 50k? very hard to say. I would say that it isnt anywhere near as good as the monks belt, which puts it at or under 13k for me. Most characters, most of the time would rather have a +4 str enhancement than this item as well, remember that specific bonuses are generally worth much less (like an item that only gives you bonuses to a single save, or vs a single tactic).

Still, somewhere between 8k and 12k would be fine to me. The 8k is minimum is to keep those who think reach is the end all, be all ability from having a coronary, and the 12k is to keep it less than the monks belt.


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## LazarusLong42 (Mar 7, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Like the new animal buffs. +4 enhancement to a stat is so very broken.
> 
> wait, that was a little too sarcastic




Actually, I disagree (with it being too sarcastic).  If we go by the _spell_ "cost" rather than ability "cost", we get 2 x 3 x 2000 x 2 (duration) = 24,000 gp for a permanent +4 enhancement item.  Which means the designers actually thought a belt of Strength +4 was worth slightly less than a spell-based item would have cost.

But the problem with pricing an item of permanent enlargement is the odd assortment of things that come with it.  You get +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 AC (not including the -1 from Dex), -1 to hit (not including the +1 from Str), higher damage (generally 1 pt from size, not including the +1 from Str) and reach.  And you get bonuses against grapple/trip/disarm/etc., but I dare say that last is a minor benefit.

(Note in all the benefits and drawbacks above I've removed the effect of the Dex decrease and Str increase, since we're comparing to a plain ol' +2 belt of Str).

So, analysis:  to counteract the basic drawbacks (ignoring, for a moment, the social drawbacks), you need a +1 weapon, gloves of Dex +2 and a ring of protection +1 -- i.e. 7000 gp.

Is five bonus feet of reach and +2 damage worth 7000 gp?  The former would be for a chain-slinger with Combat Reflexes, or a trip-monkey, but not so much for a sword-and-boarder.  The latter, probably not so much--it's worth about the same as a +1 weapon, i.e. +1 to hit and damage.

I'd price the item at 6000, but make it only available as a ring--there is no body slot affinity for "size."  If put onto another body slot, it'd be 9000.


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## Scion (Mar 7, 2004)

transformation? (cloak, cape, mantle)
multiple effects? (robe)
physical improvement? (shirt, belt)

 those seem to at least work partially.

I know what you mean though about the cost being off no matter how you look at it though. The penalties it gives are major.

Of course currently I am useing the 3.5 animal buffs as 1st level spells and the real animal buffs as 2nd level spells..lol.. so the math in my head was a little off


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