# DriveThruRPG Exclusivity



## 2WS-Steve (Jun 6, 2004)

This struck me as a potentially important topic and I thought it shouldn't be relegated to the ePublishing forum or RPGNet.

I posted elsewhere to say that I'm sorry that RPGNow lost a couple big publishers to DriveThruRPG's exclusivity agreement with the publishers it vends--I'm sure that hurt RPGNow a fair bit.

I like having more choices for my online PDF purchases (and that's what I originally hoped DriveThru would be) but the exclusivity business means that now I'm guaranteed to only have one option, if I want ebooks from those publishers.

****
That said, I certainly like having another venue for PDF books and I like that DriveThruRPG offers a number of books that up until now haven't been available in PDF (w00+! FFG's Midnight Campaign Setting is just a moment of credit card weakness away).


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## Morrus (Jun 6, 2004)

RPGNow still has Malhavoc's catalogue -- is it an "exclusive from now on" kind of deal?

More options are always good for the consumer (and for the electronic publisher, who is also a consumer in this model), although exclusive arrangements benefit only the site selling the products.  Losing Malhavoc is probably a pain for RPGNow - that's one of RPGNow's biggest earners.

Dunno.  We'll just have to wait to see how much this "exclusivity" trend continues.  

The print products in PDF format idea is great, although I'm not so sure about their pricing.


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## Morrus (Jun 6, 2004)

I'm of mixed feelings about this.  I'll need to see how it plays out before I form a firm opinion.  Here are a couple of thoughts:

1) The division between the print and PDF industry is blurring. It seems that PDF publishers are now competing directly with print publishers; consumers can now choose between a small-press PDF product or the electronic version of the latest big hardback.  I can imagine this being a problem for a lot of e-publishers, who may have to pull some neat tricks out of their sleeves to compete.  Maybe it will thin the herd of small press PDF publishers, maybe not.

2) The "exclusivity" aspect isn't attractive to me as a consumer; of course, it is great for drivethrurpg.com, and no doubt comes with a sweet deal for those publishers who sign up.  Will it cause problems for RPGNow?  Hard to say; losing Malhavoc is probably a blow (although I still see Malhavoc's catalogue at RPGNow) as Malhavoc is one of RPGNow's biggest earners.  We'll have to see if this exclusivity trend continues.


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## Morrus (Jun 6, 2004)

Sorry.  Double post (although the second version came out a little different!)  due to slow site.  Which incompetent prat is running this darn site, anyway?


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## Psion (Jun 6, 2004)

Well, they still have links to RPGnow and the catalog is still there, but I have been told by Chris at RPGobjects that Malhavoc does, in fact, intend to stop selling through RPGnow and go exclusive through DriveThruRPG.

I imagine this may have been necessary due to Malhavoc's relationship with White Wolf (who owns DTRPG, from what I understand), but I regret it nonetheless. I understand many publishers are concerned about piracy, but I am concerned about the negative impact this stands to have on the customer.

Not to mention, looking at some other products at DTRPG, some of the PDF prices are exhorbinant for electronic products.


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## 2WS-Steve (Jun 6, 2004)

I thought I'd hold off on talking about who specifically was exclusively available through DriveThroughRPG since there might be special circumstances or what-not.

Some of the prices do look high. I'm not sure how much of a discount it would take to get me jump for a tasty book--but I have a severe deficiency of will so it might have more to do with whether or not I'm bored some evening and had a couple beers...

Having moved pretty often recently, PDF versions of books I don't plan on using extensively is pretty appealling though.


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## Sledge (Jun 6, 2004)

The problem is that most of the prices are NOT discounts at all.


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## PosterBoy (Jun 7, 2004)

Sledge said:
			
		

> The problem is that most of the prices are NOT discounts at all.




The FFG stuff is only 95c off retail.  Which means you can probably find it cheaper in print at amazon. 

I'm more curious if people will have issues with DRM pdfs.  I'm sure it's something James of RPGNow will watch closely.  I know that's one of the reasons WW (who owns DriveThrurpg.com) landed some big publishers. 

Although I think it will do little to curb pirating and will annoy customers more than anything, it will be interesting to see how customers respond when force too deal with DRM pdfs (since many publishers will be exclusive there).  Will they accept it?  or will they just pirate a non DRM book instead?


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## coyote6 (Jun 7, 2004)

Bummer about Malhavoc; I've bought many of their books twice (once as PDF & later in print), but I certainly won't be buying DRM PDF versions. I burn the PDFs to CD and use the CD on whatever computer I happen to have handy -- my desktop system at work, one of several hundred other PCs at work, my laptop, friend's system, etc. This allows me to have books available, without having to lug them around. 

I have no interest in having to deal with MS's .NET Passport or Adobe IDs everytime I want to read a file on a different PC. Heck, at least one system I use has never been connected to the 'net, and thus I apparently couldn't read DRM files on it at all. I actually don't even have an active .net Passport or Adobe ID, as far as I know. 

I won't be purchasing electronic versions of Malhavoc books any more, which is too bad -- I was looking forward to several upcoming books. Furthermore, I've noticed the books I've used most are the books I have both print & electronic copies of -- I read the print copies & use the electronic books as references (it's much easier to search for something by hitting Ctrl-F than by trying to deal with the average RPG book's index). 

Oh well, I guess I'll spend that money on non-DRM PDFs. I wonder if SJG's e23 books are going to be DRM or not.


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## rpghost (Jun 7, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> RPGNow still has Malhavoc's catalogue -- is it an "exclusive from now on" kind of deal?




For the record, it is true: Malhavoc is leaving RPGNow. We have a 15 day cancel clause which was involked to expire the 10th of this month. It is Malhavoc's choice to deactivate their product when they see fit. Or they will be gone on the 10th when I do it.

Fiery Dragon has already deactivated their products and have also involked their termination clause.

Both these companies were already in bed with White Wolf so we knew this was coming months ago when WW attempted to buy RPGNow.com

Guardians of Order is on the DTRPG site, but I've not been officially notified of their intent. Though from what I know of DTRPG's contracts, they have no choice but to go exclusive now.

Yes it hurts RPGNow a bit. But in all honesty I think it'll help the industry as a whole. So I'm not out here piss'n and moning about it. RPGNow will do fine without them. Though these companies are top sellers, they are still much less than 5% of RPGNow's revenues.

James


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## Crothian (Jun 7, 2004)

Forgive this possible stupid question but what is DRM PDF and how does it differ from a reguliar pdf file?


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## Phineas Crow (Jun 7, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Forgive this possible stupid question but what is DRM PDF and how does it differ from a reguliar pdf file?




Here is an article on Digital Rights Management.


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## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 7, 2004)

I doubt that drivethrurpg.com will be around a year from now.

First off, the pricing is ridiculous. An entire level of the distribution system is gone. It's now vendor->retailer->consumer, cutting out the distribution channel. That should eliminate about 30% of the cover price. The second thing that needs to be factored into PDF pricing is print production costs; not the cost of 1 unit when the publisher prints 1,000+ at a time, but the cost for the consumer to print the book out and store it in an organized fashion (be it a binder or taking it to kino's for output). At the very least, that's another $4 knocked off the price. Given the ridiculous prices, entities involved on the vendor or retailer tiers are being greedy. The existence of some low cost PDFs on the site suggest that it is the vendors.

Second, it looks like no one bothered explaining to the vendors exactly how easy it is to break the DRM of PDF files. Adobe has been pushing their DRM crap for more than 5 years now. If it worked, it would be commonplace by now. But to give you an idea how easy it is, for me, it is a simple process involving 5 clicks of the mouse, nothing more. If any DriveThruRPG vendor wants more details, they can email me and ask.

Third, consumers don't like DRM. They're restricted in copy'n'paste (10 times in 10 days) and I've heard some complaints about printing issues (DRM interferes with PS output to printers using Adobe's own drivers). Consumers can't keep a copy at home on the desktop they use for internet services and their laptops, because each time you open the file on the other computer, you have to get permission to read it. You upgrade your memory, add a new hard drive, change the processor, and you need to get permissions again. How many times do you think a consumer will tolerate that overly intrusive nonsense before they abandon a game system anyway?

I hope vendors are paying attention to the VAST negative feedback that has developed in the last 48 hours. There are literally hundreds of negative posts on the subject on rpg.net. I have no doubt that we'll see a drastic rise in the number of posts in coming weeks.


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## marketingman (Jun 7, 2004)

I guess it is always the way of "exclusive" to work there way into the PDF format. But if the gaming print side of this  is a guage it will notbe as successful has they heve hoped.
Like Black Dragon Press exclusive with Alliance, Stellar Games exclusive with Hobby Games US, DC comics Exclusive with Hero Games.

The nice thing is that RPGNow has another company trying to emulate them, that is a sign of success for them. Some else believes what they started is worthwhile and possible profitable.


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## Darrin Drader (Jun 7, 2004)

I have no opinion on this subject, just an observation. I've tried twice in two days to go to the DrviethruRPG website and twice it has failed to come up. If I were a publisher of RPG material, I doubt that would inspire my confidence.


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## jmucchiello (Jun 7, 2004)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I have no opinion on this subject, just an observation. I've tried twice in two days to go to the DrviethruRPG website and twice it has failed to come up. If I were a publisher of RPG material, I doubt that would inspire my confidence.



I have to agree. As a consumer I wrote off DTRPG when after 10 minutes "loading" it still hadn't come up. As a publisher I want nothing to do with DRM. I think it's bad for both me and my customers.


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## BryonD (Jun 7, 2004)

Does anyone know exactly what DRM restrictions will be in place?

Can I back up my stuff?
Can I print my stuff?
If my hard drive goes Tango Uniform will I be out of the files and out of luck.

As usual, I am perfectly happy with whatever someone else wants to do with their business.  But there is more good stuff out there than I choose to budget for gaming already.  So if you put one strike against yourself, you are out as far as I am concerned.


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## Citizen Mane (Jun 7, 2004)

It came up for me, after a good long while.  Between that, the prices, and the whole DRM thing, there's no way I'll use DriveThruRPG.  It's too much of a pain in the neck for me, as I buy .pdf products mostly for (1) ease of use and (2) for pricing (I'll pay low prices for something interesting that I don't anticipate using much but would like to read).  This basically makes the whole deal a royal pain, AFAIC.  

Best,
Nick


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## HellHound (Jun 7, 2004)

Dana, I can't believe I'm asking this ... email me. (I can't find an email link for you anywhere that works anymore). mjasonparent@ambient.ca


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## mercucio (Jun 7, 2004)

I'm not a publisher, I am consumer...wanted to get that right out in the clear.

I have purchased several eBooks--and it was *horrible*. Copying files from PC to another (specificially home and work) was a pain in the *bleep*. And requiring a MS Passport? Has any even bothered to read what restrictions having a MSPassport means?

Needless to say I will never purchase a product that uses DRM again. If these publishers plan to release their products using DRM, they will lose my dollars. Insignicant at first pass, but once other consumers buy these products and learn what a hassle--not mention a restriction of fair use--DRM is, I imagine that these companies will lose their dollars as well.

I can understand wanting to restrict piracy, but all DRM does is restrict the ability of someone who has legally purchased the product to easily use and transport the material.


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## Psion (Jun 7, 2004)

mercucio said:
			
		

> I have purchased several eBooks--and it was *horrible*. Copying files from PC to another (specificially home and work) was a pain in the *bleep*. And requiring a MS Passport? Has any even bothered to read what restrictions having a MSPassport means?




It's not necessary. You can get by with having an Adobe account. Though they don't make that exceedingly clear.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 7, 2004)

Phineas Crow said:
			
		

> Here is an article on Digital Rights Management.



 This link isn't working for me.

One thing, I certainly want to be very clear on what exactly are the differences between a DRM file and a regular PDF before I buy one.


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## 2WS-Steve (Jun 7, 2004)

There's a free download of the Exalted rulebook through DTRPG--so you could probably test out what you can do with a DRM PDF by playing with the file.


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## V_Shane (Jun 7, 2004)

Apparently as funny as it is that Corperations are made up of individuals, they blatently ignore the common sense marketing of the freedom of the consumer, to restrict any further (as DriveThru) is to commit certain Commercial death. I despise signing in everywhere I go on the net. There are products so rediculous with thier security that they are nightmares to install. I will certainly stick with RPGnow in both a client and consumer. If I buy a book and I need references, I feel I have the right for my own uses.

Its paranoia, to restrict is to create tension with your customers and they will stop buying. It doesn't take a marketing team to figure that out, its jsut a matter of common freedoms people like to enjoy.


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## kingpaul (Jun 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> It's not necessary. You can get by with having an Adobe account. Though they don't make that exceedingly clear.



Do you know if Adobe Acrobat 5.0 will work? I have the full blown 5.0, and don't really feel like shelling out the upgrade cost for 6.0 just to use the product.


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## Grazzt (Jun 7, 2004)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Do you know if Adobe Acrobat 5.0 will work? I have the full blown 5.0, and don't really feel like shelling out the upgrade cost for 6.0 just to use the product.




You dont have to upgrade to Acrobat 6. You can use Acrobat Reader 6 which is free. (And yes, Acrobat and Acrobat Reader will run on the same PC....I've done it many times.)


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## DClingman (Jun 7, 2004)

I certainly don't think those high price points will help anything, but I definitely understand the piracy issue. Sure DRM can be broken, but the typical guy who isn't computer savvy (i.e. possibly the 80% of the world that isn't on EnWorld and doesn't know computers too awful well) will just deal with it.

Personally, I sit on the fence with this one. I don't want to limit the rights of my customers, but at the same time, there are some customers who really don't respect my effort no matter what they paid/didn't pay. I think I have a workaround for this, but its still in beta and needs work.

Dustin


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## francisca (Jun 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> It's not necessary. You can get by with having an Adobe account. Though they don't make that exceedingly clear.



That's no comfort to me.  I don't feel that I should have to cough up private information and access to my computer to a company just to get an RPG title in pdf format.  When I buy something, I understand I need to give personal info to the retailer or producer, I get that.  

However, in the case of MS-Passport and DRM, you have to grant access to your machine to an outside party, not the retailer or producer, and despite assurances, I do not trust them to treat the data in a manner that respects my privacy.


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## Psion (Jun 7, 2004)

francisca said:
			
		

> However, in the case of MS-Passport and DRM, you have to grant access to your machine to an outside party, not the retailer or producer, and despite assurances, I do not trust them to treat the data in a manner that respects my privacy.




After the Amazon incident, and after another company (I forget which) that promised privacy was purchased by a company that proceeded to flout the policy the personal info was acquired under, I don't either.


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## msd (Jun 7, 2004)

*Perhaps a slightly different angle on this...*

It would be (from an academic perspective) really interesting to me to:


See an example contract between a publisher and drivethrurpg.com in order to specifically examine the terms governing the "exclusive" nature of the relationship
Hear from some of the publishers why they consented to the "exclusive" nature of the business relationship

Here's what I am getting at...

Ultimately, this whole dynamic boils down to an economic relationship between publisher and purchaser.  Both publisher and purchaser have very clear concerns and needs which need to be met for the relationship to be successful.

The publisher needs to be able to produce material which satisfies his purchaser base and must do so in a profitable manner, eliminating or avoiding the effects of any elements which tend to reduce profitability (like piracy).

For their part, consumers simply want their demands (in terms of content, format, etc.) met and want to reinforce the notion that the publisher who ignores the demands of the marketplace does so at its own risk.

The ideal middleman therefore would seem to understand both sets of concerns and strive to meet them.

The exclusive nature of a contract (potentially...I have not seen the contract) turns this model on its head, altering the way economic actors are forced to react to free market requirements.  In other words, if I am Middleman B and can do a better job than Middleman A but can't lure Publisher A because of the exclusive nature of the contract between Publisher A and Middleman A, my incentive to develop and invest in technology that caters to the concerns of all actors involved has been (it would appear) dealt a fairly serious blow.  In the end, by stalling or at least slowing development of a better delivery mechanism, it seems that the exclusive nature of the contract has the potential to serve neither the long term needs of either the publisher or the purchaser.

Again, for the record, I have _not_ seen a contract and have not made up my mind about drivethrurpg.com and will give them and their technology the benefit of the doubt until personal experience proves otherwise.  I am just throwing a "hmmm...that's interesting...I wonder why" type of question into the air.

Hope this added to the discussion


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## The Black Kestrel (Jun 7, 2004)

I'll have to vote against DriveThru and DRM as well. I have tried Adobe's DRM with Amazon (yes I'm a victim) and was displeased. I can barely stand using MS Reader with the ebooks I do get.  

The only place I've been satisfied with an e-publisher besides RPGNow is Baen's Webscription site. They offer a variety of formats (MS Reader, RTF, HTML Rocket/RCA REB1100 and Palm/Win CE/Psion Zip (Mobipocket)) and very large selection of free books! The companies getting into e-publishing should be expanding ways to get their content to consumers not limiting them. 

If they're so concerned about piracy they should ask Jim Baen if Webscriptions has helped or hurt his bottom line. If a big publisher like Baen can forgo any form of DRM why should we tolerate it?


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## jaerdaph (Jun 7, 2004)

I only buy electronic RPG products exclusively from RPGNow. So if your product isn't available there, well...


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## DanMcS (Jun 7, 2004)

mshieldsdunn said:
			
		

> The publisher needs to be able to produce material which satisfies his purchaser base and must do so in a profitable manner, eliminating or avoiding the effects of any elements which tend to reduce profitability (like piracy).




There is no proof that either:
a) Piracy reduces profits (the people who pirate a product are either cheapskates or broke, and would not have bought it anyway).
or
b) DRM reduces piracy.

Who does DRM help?  Adobe.

Hmm, we've released acrobat 5, we sold a lot, it has saturated the market, people are happy with it, they can create their PDFs, sales are slowing.  We can patch a few bugs and shine it up, but we're really obligated to patch the bugs in 5 anyway, and if version 6 is just another PDF creator, the people who are happy with 5 won't buy it.  We need some new marketing gimick to really kick the sales of version 6.  By jove, I've got it!


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## The Sigil (Jun 7, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> I doubt that drivethrurpg.com will be around a year from now.
> 
> First off, the pricing is ridiculous. An entire level of the distribution system is gone. It's now vendor->retailer->consumer, cutting out the distribution channel. That should eliminate about 30% of the cover price. The second thing that needs to be factored into PDF pricing is print production costs; not the cost of 1 unit when the publisher prints 1,000+ at a time, but the cost for the consumer to print the book out and store it in an organized fashion (be it a binder or taking it to kino's for output). At the very least, that's another $4 knocked off the price. Given the ridiculous prices, entities involved on the vendor or retailer tiers are being greedy. The existence of some low cost PDFs on the site suggest that it is the vendors.
> 
> ...



Dana, normally I don't quite see eye-to-eye with all of your points... but in this case, I agree 1000% (yes, that's 1000, not 100).

PDFs have been struggling to gain a consumer base (there's been no shortage of suppliers trying their hand at PDFs).  While publishers/suppliers like DRM as it adds value for THEM, the problem is that value added to the publisher is directly removed from the consumer... in fact, I would argue that the value added to publishers is much less than the value removed from consumers (worse than a zero-sum game).  When you're still struggling to gain a consumer base, I think it's ... well... assinine to try to squeeze more blood from a turnip by adding DRM which decreases the attractiveness of your products (IIRC, RPGNow's polls show that the #1 annoyance/deterrent to customers when it comes to PDFs is copy/paste lockout - i.e., DRM).  Remember what Dancey said about ignoring the voice of your customers in the RPG business... doing so led to the death of TSR. 

Not to be making business forecasts for others, but TSR was a heck of a lot bigger than any PDF Publisher today (in fact, probably bigger than all of them put together) and any PDF Publisher that ignores their customers' #1 complaint is probably signing their own death warrant... and will not be able to survive "by eating their own fat" (cash reserves) for long like TSR did.

I think going DRM is a BIG mistake for PDF publishers, mostly because the consumerbase at large hates DRM.

--The Sigil


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## trancejeremy (Jun 7, 2004)

Well, I doubt DTRPG will be going anywhere. Remember, it's not some fly by night company, it's White Wolf.  They have both the money and the contacts in the industry to get exclusive licenses for just about every major RPG company.

If you want to buy an electronic version of those of those product, you'll have to buy it from DTRPG.

I'm sure they'll make enough money that it's profitable.

I would imagine most PDF-only companies would stay with RPGNow.  Has DTRPG even tried to recruit any of those? I don't see anyone on their page.


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## GMSkarka (Jun 7, 2004)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I would imagine most PDF-only companies would stay with RPGNow.  Has DTRPG even tried to recruit any of those? I don't see anyone on their page.




I suspect that they're not going to--which is probably what this insulting reference in Monte's press release over on Gamingreport.com refers to:

"DriveThruRPG.com is the first completely professional gaming e-Book site"


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## Maggan (Jun 7, 2004)

*The war between publishers*



			
				Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Second, it looks like no one bothered explaining to the vendors exactly how easy it is to break the DRM of PDF files. Adobe has been pushing their DRM crap for more than 5 years now. If it worked, it would be commonplace by now. But to give you an idea how easy it is, for me, it is a simple process involving 5 clicks of the mouse, nothing more. If any DriveThruRPG vendor wants more details, they can email me and ask.




I don't know about anyone else, but a publisher offering advice on how to deactivate other publishers' DRM is... not something that inspires respect in me.

Maggan


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## Vigilance (Jun 7, 2004)

He's not offering it to the general public... but to DTRPG vendors to show them how the increased hassle to their customers doesn't even HELP them increase "security".

There's a lot of things you can say about Dana, but aiding computer piracy isnt on the list.

Chuck


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## Maggan (Jun 7, 2004)

*I offer my apologies to Dana*



			
				Vigilance said:
			
		

> He's not offering it to the general public... but to DTRPG vendors to show them how the increased hassle to their customers doesn't even HELP them increase "security".
> 
> There's a lot of things you can say about Dana, but aiding computer piracy isnt on the list.
> 
> Chuck




Check. It said "vendors". I misread, and I offer my apologies to Dana.

Maggan


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## BryonD (Jun 7, 2004)

GMSkarka said:
			
		

> I suspect that they're not going to--which is probably what this insulting reference in Monte's press release over on Gamingreport.com refers to:
> 
> "DriveThruRPG.com is the first completely professional gaming e-Book site"




Did he really say that?  If so, that is pretty pathetic.
It is both insulting to RPGNow and to many of the quality writers who might not be published if it were not for RPGNow.

I'd like to think that giving the fan base what they want would be a little higher up the priority list.


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## Vigilance (Jun 7, 2004)

Both Monte and FDP used the line "first completely professional gaming site" (or some paraphrase thereof) in their press releases which says to me its a "talking point" of the site.

In other words that phrase is meant to steer you away from all the "unprofessionals" over at RPGNow who were not invited or declined the invitation to play with the cool kids. 

Chuck


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## The Sigil (Jun 8, 2004)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Both Monte and FDP used the line "first completely professional gaming site" (or some paraphrase thereof) in their press releases which says to me its a "talking point" of the site.
> 
> In other words that phrase is meant to steer you away from all the "unprofessionals" over at RPGNow who were not invited or declined the invitation to play with the cool kids.
> 
> Chuck



Funny, I got that exact same impression.  On RPGNow.com, they have links for "potential vendors" to inquire about and see the basics of the RPGNow.com program.  In other words, they want you to sell your PDFs there.  At DriveThruRPG.com, it looks like an "invitation-only" site.

As for the "completely professional" phrase, I hope Eric's Grandmother will pardon my French, but a line like that is utter and complete *horses--t*.  

What makes someone a professional?  They get paid for what they do.  Let's see... DTRPG has no privacy policy posted on the site.  Doesn't accept international registration (or rather, assumes everyone is in the US).  Most online sites are a little more - well, I don't know what, but they have a privacy policy when they ask for private info (such as, say, home address, phone, and CREDIT CARD NUMBERS).  Hmm... seems to me that RPGNow.com is just as "professional" as DTRPG.com... and the fact that DTRPG.com is trying to corner that phrase is as unprofessional as anything I've seen in a while, so I would call RPGNow.com MORE professional than DTRPG.com myself.

Also, I find it interesting that the site's php code, including the "labels" they use to mark vendors and products, is REMARKABLY similar to RPGNow.com's code... if RPGNow.com's code is proprietary, it's possible that this site, which touts so heavily "protecting valuable copyrighted material through DRM" is itself infringing upon RPGNow.com's code.  

Since RPGNow.com has said they got an offer to be bought, one wonders if a "due diligence" phase got the folks at DTRPG.com the backend php code used at RPGNow.com... hmm... even if they AREN'T using RPGNow.com's code, it sure as heck looks like it... and the "appearance of evil" in illegally using someone else's IP in this case is VERY ironic considering their selling point is "we protect IP."

Reminds of Senator Orrin Hatch suggesting that copyright holders should be able to remotely destroy hard drives of infringers' computers... and within 24 hours, someone pointed out that his own website hosted at senate.gov was itself using infringing code!

I'm not making accusations, but a quick observation made me suspicous, to say the least.  Suffice to say that as a consumer, I'm not at all impressed with DriveThruRPG.com --- and as a publisher, I am withholding judgement, though even as a publisher I am 100% against DRM in principle... had they offered me a chance to join the site (they didn't) I would not have done so unless my products would be made available 100% DRM-free.

--The Sigil


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## rpghost (Jun 8, 2004)

I'm trying very hard not to get drawn into all this... but I can't let a comment like this run wild:



			
				The Sigil said:
			
		

> Also, I find it interesting that the site's php code, including the "labels" they use to mark vendors and products, is REMARKABLY similar to RPGNow.com's code... if RPGNow.com's code is proprietary, it's possible that this site, which touts so heavily "protecting valuable copyrighted material through DRM" is itself infringing upon RPGNow.com's code.





RPGNow.com (and RPGShop/RPGMall) are based on an earlier version of the code found here:
http://www.oscommerce.com

I told them where they could get it and they wisly (in this case) took my advice. I've been nothing but helpful to DTRPG whenever I could be. No doubt they have learned a lot directly from my mouth as well as my cusomter polls.

James
RPGNow.com (*The Unprofessionals*)


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## 2WS-Steve (Jun 8, 2004)

rpghost said:
			
		

> James
> RPGNow.com (*The Unprofessionals*)




   

I suspect all the hubbub has helped drive a lot of PDF sales lately. I just applied a sudden influx of earnings off my one product to buy Phil Reed's two Whispering Vault colelctions (and they're TERRIFIC).


Also, I'm sure it'll help all PDF vendors and publishers that a whole slew of White Wolf, FFG, and Eden fans will be trying out PDF versions of books and getting addicted to the instant gratification of eBooks.


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## The Sigil (Jun 8, 2004)

rpghost said:
			
		

> RPGNow.com (and RPGShop/RPGMall) are based on an earlier version of the code found here:
> http://www.oscommerce.com
> 
> I told them where they could get it and they wisly (in this case) took my advice. I've been nothing but helpful to DTRPG whenever I could be. No doubt they have learned a lot directly from my mouth as well as my cusomter polls.



Okay, cool.  I just wasn't sure where you'd gotten it... whether it was an in-house development or not.

If it's not, that's cool... it's just that to those that DIDN'T know where the RPGNow.com code came from, well, it looked suspicious.  All is well and good and I'll happily recant my comments on that topic (but leave them in the original post).

--The Sigil


----------



## Bloodstone Press (Jun 8, 2004)

Just a few observations from my perspective: 

1. I didn't like the "unprofessional" swipe at RPGnow. It’s way off the mark and is inflammatory. 

2. I tried to visit the DTRPG site and it was very slow, then it crashed (page not found errors)

3. I completely agree with Chuck's observation that they are trying to appear as the elite in the e-publishing arena (the cool kids). However, I think this is a bad business move for them. For one thing, SV Games is relegated to a distant second place in the e-publishing world and they have been actively trying to recruit publishers. DTRPG is trying to be the "cool kids" and will find that's not very cool at all. Either they plan to offer agreements only to those publishers who can prove themselves on RPGnow, or they don't plan to invite anyone else at all. Either way, I don't think it will work. 

4. My assessment of their business model is generally negative. I think the DRM issue will create too many hurdles for buyers. For example, I use MSN. I have Adobe reader 5.0 and I don't know the first thing about an MS passport or whatever, and I don't intend to learn. I have too many other things to do with my time, and I don't like signing in/using passwords etc all the time anyway. Security, if it is to be used, must be transparent or you will lose customers. Also, the sign up process on DTRPG is something I don't want to do. That's a hurdle I'm not going to jump over unless Monte or some other publisher writes a book that I REALLY want. Also, having the DRM limit the cut and past to 10 times in 10 days is a big negative. Cut and paste is one of the most commonly used features of PDFs. 
  They do have a very aggressive marketing strategy, I just think their service is lacking. 
  The idea of having exclusive distribution deals with the publishers is also a bad move. I understand that it is important for the DRM to be effective, but there are a lot of publishers who sell their stuff on multiple sites. Not only can you sell PDFs on RPGnow and SV Games, you can also sell them through Pay Pal's e-delivery system and half-a-dozen other e-book web sites. A lot of publishers won't be interested just because of that (that is, IF DTRPG does intend to offer agreements to other publishers in the future). So they will be stuck with a small pool of "top notch" publishers, which, in the long run, isn't a great deal in my opinion. 

 Why? 
 Well, for one thing "top notch" is largely a matter of opinion. I've seen several people say they don't like Malhavoc's stuff because it is too "weird." Personally, I’ve bought a lot more stuff from RPGObjects and other “3rd tier” publishers than I have from Necromancer, Malhavoc, and Fiery Dragon.

 Why? 
Because anybody can write game material. I don’t see as much value in the company’s name as I do in the product concept. I’m more likely to buy a King Arthur supplement regardless of who wrote it, than some “homebrew” setting supplement, regardless of who wrote it. At this point I’m more likely to buy a book full of d20 gun stats than a book full of d20 spells, regardless of who wrote it because that’s what I’m interested in right now. 

Furthermore, I think other people think the same way. One need only look at the continuously strong sales of my 22 Talent Trees to see that it is “concept" that sells a book, not publisher name recognition. 

 And guess which distributor has the widest range of supplements to choose from? There is simply no way that DTRPG, with their small pool of writers will ever be able to produce a range of material as broad as that carried by RPGnow. Again, The “small band of elite publishers” idea isn’t a good idea for a distributor. For a publishing company with a good market plan, maybe that’s a god idea. But if you are trying to compete with RPGnow you are going to need a wide range of products and be extremely user friendly. DTRPG doesn’t have either of those things. 

5. I agree that piracy is a bad thing, but this isn't the way to fight it. Positive reinforcement will work better than widespread negative reinforcement. 

6. Clearly, some of the vendors on DTRPG don't understand pricing of PDFs. 

7. RPGnow has a long list of positive qualities, not the least of which is the name recognition and primacy effect of being first in the industry. They are also a lot more user friendly to the vendors and the customers than either SV Games or DTRPG. They also have a mountain of good will built up in the community. 

 Therefor, I predict that 1-year from now RPGnow will still be at the top of the industry. DTRPG will be a distant second and SV Games will be in 3rd place, fighting for the scraps. 



			
				RPGhost said:
			
		

> No doubt they have learned a lot directly from my mouth as well as my cusomter polls.




 I don't know. Seems to me that anyone reading those polls would know that limiting the cut and paste feature is a big mistake. 

 BTW James, kudos for not selling out.


----------



## Grazzt (Jun 8, 2004)

Bloodstone Press said:
			
		

> Just a few observations from my perspective:
> 
> For example, I use MSN.




If by MSN you mean MSN messenger, then chances are good you have a MS passport. Unless I missed something, you do the passport thing when you sign up for messenger.


----------



## marketingman (Jun 8, 2004)

rpghost said:
			
		

> I'm trying very hard not to get drawn into all this... but I can't let a comment like this run wild:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




James,
Some times it is best to avoid a subject and other times it is best to confront.
You have done a remarkable job at  treating business has buisness and being very informative and supportive.

DTRPG obviously new who the indutry leader was and grew from your knowledge and you shared it willingly to help your hobby and industry that is utterly cool.

Look at the bright side they have given you marketing fodder forever Hertz/Avis, Pepsi/Coke, Democrates/ Republicans. You have been the consumite professional.

I would like to interview you for the Xilven Trumpeter about this major change to your company. So just drop me an e-mail when you want


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## malladin (Jun 8, 2004)

I really don't feel I understand the typical PDF buyer well enough to know whether DTRPG will work or not.  There seems to be a real mystery behind what will sell and what won't on RPGNow and it just seems to be a lot to do with chance as to whether you'd be successful or not.

I seemed to have missed a lot of whats been going on the last couple of days, so I'm not entirely sure what to think about DTRPG.  I can see that it might be offensive for us small publishers to be source of the inferrence that RPGNow is unprofesional, but, hell, thats business for you - there's no rules about offending the opposition.

I'm not sure I fully understand the nature of the contract agreement you get with DTRPG and how they enforce it, and as a small publisher I'm not sure I'm worried enough about my own PI to bother with it.  I think most of us PDF guys put out 90%+ OGC anyway, so we're not too fussed over our PI.

However, there is one factor about DTRPG that does intrigue me; the ability to be in a smaller pond.  At RPGNow we're a small fish in a very large pond, if we were to (hypothetically) move to DTRPG we'd be stil be a small fish, but in a much smaller pond, and *might *pick up a extra sales as a result. I've not contacted them yet, and doubt they'd want me if I did, but I have to say that the size of RPGNow does feel like it is drowning our potential at times.  

Maybe I'm wrong, but I just wanted to offer an alternative perspective; call it a bit of devils advocate, but I just thought I'd add something to balance the argument, and this is the best I can come up with.

Cheerio,

Ben


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 8, 2004)

malladin said:
			
		

> However, there is one factor about DTRPG that does intrigue me; the ability to be in a smaller pond.  At RPGNow we're a small fish in a very large pond, if we were to (hypothetically) move to DTRPG we'd be stil be a small fish, but in a much smaller pond, and *might *pick up a extra sales as a result. I've not contacted them yet, and doubt they'd want me if I did, but I have to say that the size of RPGNow does feel like it is drowning our potential at times.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but I just wanted to offer an alternative perspective; call it a bit of devils advocate, but I just thought I'd add something to balance the argument, and this is the best I can come up with.
> 
> ...





RPGnow really isn't as big a pond as a lot of us vendors think. The problem is a need for some serious housekeeping. I went through the vendors' manufacturer pages. 98 of them have 0, 1, or 2 products listed. About another 50 only have three products listed. And many of them have not produced a single new product in more than 8 months (A few haven't done anything new in over a year). So there is a lot of clutter crowding around the producing vendors, making it look like a huge pond.

The one thing I'd like to see James do is clean out all those cobwebs, maybe divide the site up into active, semiactive, and inactive publishers, and require some sort of production schedule from publishers, say some new product every 4-6 months to remain classified as an active vendor (go more than 12 months with nothing new and become an inactive vendor). If the site did that, with a default to display only the active vendors (with semiactive and inactive vendors accessible by a menu bar link), the pond would shrink down to look the proper size. Well, I'd like to see all that and vendors shouldn't even appear on the site until they have one product active.


----------



## Bloodstone Press (Jun 8, 2004)

> there's no rules about offending the opposition.




 True enough. But when you've asked the opposition for help, they help you, then you turn around and slap them in the face, it doesn't generate a lot of good karma. 



> I think most of us PDF guys put out 90%+ OGC anyway, so we're not too fussed over our PI.




 I think so too, but the DRM issue is more about piracy than PI. 



> However, there is one factor about DTRPG that does intrigue me; the ability to be in a smaller pond. At RPGNow we're a small fish in a very large pond, if we were to (hypothetically) move to DTRPG we'd be stil be a small fish, but in a much smaller pond, and might pick up a extra sales as a result.




 We might. In fact I think what would happen is that we would be exposed to a different audience than the one that frequently shops at RPGnow (a WW audience rather than a WotC audience). I also think that audience would be smaller as well. Therfore, I think the net result in our sales would be less. 



> call it a bit of devils advocate,




 most of the time I'm on the devil's side myself!   



> If by MSN you mean MSN messenger, then chances are good you have a MS passport. Unless I missed something, you do the passport thing when you sign up for messenger.




 I mean Microsoft Network. Yeah, I've got some sort of passport thing. I don't use it. I don't use MS messenger either. Its just not something that appeals to me and I don't seem to need it to function on the net. 



> Look at the bright side they have given you marketing fodder forever Hertz/Avis, Pepsi/Coke, Democrates/ Republicans....




 I don't think it'll come to that. They will have to do a lot better in a number of areas before they are a viable alternative to RPGnow. They are caught in the same catch 22 that every similar business has been in (small number of products, small customer base). They can't grow one without having the other. They are making it hard on themselves by implementing the exclusive agreements. 

 It'll be more like PC/mac rather than Pepsi/Coke

 The DRM is not enough added value for most publishers since 
a. it doesn't work very well.
b. it is bothersome to the consumers 

 The small band of elite publishers isn't enough to appeal to a mass audience of consumers for the reasons I cited above. They simply can't produce the range of material that RPGnow offers, and being "elite" counts less and less everyday in this industry. 

 And again, for the record: I think DTRPG will be successful, just not as successful as RPGnow. 

 Ok, now I must get busy on more important things.


----------



## Bloodstone Press (Jun 8, 2004)

Ugh, Dana you're like the plague!   

 first, I agree with nearly everything you've been saying in this thread. I just have a small point to add: 



> I went through the vendors' manufacturer pages. 98 of them have 0, 1, or 2 products listed. About another 50 only have three products listed. And many of them have not produced a single new product in more than 8 months (A few haven't done anything new in over a year). So there is a lot of clutter crowding around the producing vendors, making it look like a huge pond.




 To illustrate what I've been saying about the wide range of material offered on RPGnow, imagine what would happen if James simply cut all products from the sort of vendors you've mentioned. 

(I know that's not what you are suggesting)

 I think if he did that, it would reduce the value of the site in the eyes of the customers. Clearly, more titles, covering a wider range is a better way to go; not a small group of publishers with relatively narrow product foci. 



> The one thing I'd like to see James do is clean out all those cobwebs, maybe divide the site up into active, semiactive, and inactive publishers, and require some sort of production schedule from publishers, say some new product every 4-6 months to remain classified as an active vendor (go more than 12 months with nothing new and become an inactive vendor). If the site did that, with a default to display only the active vendors (with semiactive and inactive vendors accessible by a menu bar link), the pond would shrink down to look the proper size.




 I don't know. I think the fact that "new" products are always at the top of the lists means that any inactive publishers will eventually find their way to the bottom and not add to the clutter on most of the pages.

 Nevertheless, I'm not opposed to your suggestion.  

 What contributes to the clutter is the "buck-o-batch" products that have been sweeping the site lately. 



> Well, I'd like to see all that and vendors shouldn't even appear on the site until they have one product active.




I'd like that too.

 Ok, NOW I'm going to go work on more important things.


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## Kosala (Jun 8, 2004)

*Impressions of using DriveThru RPG*

Greretings all!

I thought I might share some impressions of DriveThru after having fiddled with its services the last day or two.

*Joining the Site* 
This was notorioulsy difficult yesterday since they demanded that my STATE be entered and the options had no alternative for those outside the US which made registration impossible. This has now been fixed and registration went smoothly.

*The Site in General* 
Most appallingly designed user experience I have endured in ages. Slow load times. However in their defense, its faster today than yesterday so they seem to be doing something about it.

*DRM driven PDFs* 
The download, activation and usage of the DRM driven PDFs was completely painless. After downloading the PDF Adobe reader took over and in a couple of dialog driven click throughs I had the entire thing setup. Took less than a minute.

The downside: you must have an internet connection to activate the product on your computer or when making an activated backup when transfering it to another computer. You DO NOT need to have an active internet connection to read the product, or so it seems. Adobe Reader has a step by step guide to making activated backups of the file and it works painlessly.

Copying is limited to 10 times in 10 days for reasons that are beyond me.

Printing works fine.

*Vendors and DriveThru* 
For vendors and publishers I am unclear on DriveThru's policies. I have been trying to get them to answer me on what policies and procedures need to be adhered to as a vendor selling PDFs there but no clear answer has been forthcoming. Its possible that they expect all vendors to sign exclusivity deals to agree to sell there, but I am as yet unsure of this. When I contacted them about it they asked me to send in sample pages of one of our upcoming PDFs for "approval"

*Pricing of products* 
One word ... ludicrous. The pricing of original PDFs are fine. The pricing of scanned books turned into PDFs are ludicrous.

*Overall Consumer View* 
Overall as a consumer, both RPGnow and DriveThru seem to be viable alternatives. The DRM does not cause that much bother, but the slow site does. Hopefully they will have that in gear and do something about the pricing on the non-original PDFs.

As a vendor and publisher I would lean towards RPGnow, if for no other reason than the fact that DriveThru has no clear and publicly available policy to date and they are too untried to consider any sort of exclusivity.

Hope this helps the discussion.


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 8, 2004)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Both Monte and FDP used the line "first completely professional gaming site" (or some paraphrase thereof) in their press releases which says to me its a "talking point" of the site.
> 
> In other words that phrase is meant to steer you away from all the "unprofessionals" over at RPGNow who were not invited or declined the invitation to play with the cool kids.
> 
> Chuck




Actually, this slight isn't from the vendors themselves, but DTRPG. If you notice, the Malhavoc, FDP and GoO press releases all include the same "about DTRPG" statement. Stock footage, canned code, all from the same source, their chosen online retail outlet.

At the very least unprofessional of White Wolf to include such a statement, and the publishers agreeing to include that wording should be ashamed of themselves for allowing it in their press releases.


----------



## Cergorach (Jun 8, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> At the very least unprofessional of White Wolf to include such a statement, and the publishers agreeing to include that wording should be ashamed of themselves for allowing it in their press releases.



ROFL!

*takes a break from ROFL*

It's like the pot saying the kettle is black.
Look who's talking about unprofesional behavior and doing things that publishers should be ashamed of...

*goes back to ROFL*


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2004)

> Pricing of products
> One word ... ludicrous. The pricing of original PDFs are fine. The pricing of scanned books turned into PDFs are ludicrous.




For some products, yes.  But I think the prices depend on teh publisher.  As I looked through, I found hte prices for print products from Sword and Sorcery and Sovereign Stone to be very reasonable--about half price in general.  For example, _Age of Mortals_, the print version of which retails at $40, sells at $20.

I think the publishers themselves decide the prices.  Hopefully, some of them will come down a bit.


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 8, 2004)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> ROFL!
> 
> *takes a break from ROFL*
> 
> ...




Hey, twit, my press releases have NEVER said anything that could be taken as a slight against another company. In fact nothing in any official company correspondence I've written in the last 12 years has said anything that would have even remotely insulted anyone.

You really, REALLY need to learn the difference between corporate communications and personal communications.


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## Cergorach (Jun 8, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Hey, twit, my press releases have NEVER said anything that could be taken as a slight against another company. In fact nothing in any official company correspondence I've written in the last 12 years has said anything that would have even remotely insulted anyone.
> 
> You really, REALLY need to learn the difference between corporate communications and personal communications.



Ok, that might be true, but the difference between 'oficial' and 'personal' becomes a bit vague at ENworld...
I just found it SO funny that of all people to say it, it would be you. *grins*


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## Bloodstone Press (Jun 8, 2004)

This statement:



			
				Vigilance said:
			
		

> Both Monte and FDP used the line "first completely professional gaming site" (or some paraphrase thereof) in their press releases which says to me its a "talking point" of the site




And this statement:


			
				Dana said:
			
		

> Actually, this slight isn't from the vendors themselves, but DTRPG. If you notice, the Malhavoc, FDP and GoO press releases all include the same "about DTRPG" statement. Stock footage, canned code, all from the same source, their chosen online retail outlet.




 are identical.


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 8, 2004)

marketingman said:
			
		

> James,
> Some times it is best to avoid a subject and other times it is best to confront.




James will have his revenge when the _Gray Davis of pdfs_ craps-out and Monte Crook has to crawl back to RPGNow on his snake belly.

Unfortunately for us, James will probably let him slink back in, if only for the higher sales.

If I sound harsh, well I am. This is foul business from top to bottom. From the "professionals only" jab, to the distrust of customers, to the fact that they blame their lagging sales on piracy, and not on such gems as "When the Sky Falls" and "Chaositech".

Have fun at the Grown-Ups table, Monte. Us 'kids' will be at the Card-Table in the Kitchen, telling naughty jokes and spilling the gravy.


----------



## Kosala (Jun 8, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> For some products, yes.  But I think the prices depend on teh publisher.  As I looked through, I found hte prices for print products from Sword and Sorcery and Sovereign Stone to be very reasonable--about half price in general.  For example, _Age of Mortals_, the print version of which retails at $40, sells at $20.
> 
> I think the publishers themselves decide the prices.  Hopefully, some of them will come down a bit.




You are right of course. My apolagies about that mis-statement, the pricing is indeed set by the publisher and therefore cannot be taken as a negative reflection upon DriveThruRPG. Quite right.


----------



## Fiery James (Jun 8, 2004)

Hey!  Did FDP become one of the "elite publishers" when I wasn't looking?  

Wow, cool.

Let me just add that, in our dealings with RPGNow, we always found them to be professional and efficient.  The text in the press release should not be taken as a shot against that crew, at least insofar as FDP is concerned.

- James


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## Bloodstone Press (Jun 8, 2004)

> Hey! Did FDP become one of the "elite publishers" when I wasn't looking?




 I don't know. Have you not been looking?   

 Yeah, I think FDP is among the upper levels of the hierarchy. You were mentioned in the business plan I wrote back in 2001. Although I haven't bought any FDP products, I have heard plenty of good things about them. I would consider you to be in the same boat as Monte and Necromancer Games.  Being part of the DTRPG brouhaha only adds to that perception. 

 

 Note, I'm not spiteful or bitter about any of this, as some people here seem to be. If this is a good move for you, than I'm happy for you. If not, then I'll be happy to see you and Monte and the others come back to RPGnow. 

 Really, what I'd like to see happen in the future is for DTRPG to come off the exclusivity clause in their contract so their vendors can still sell on other sites. They need to come up with some other sort of added value besides DRM to appeal to more vendors (if that is their plan). 

 Perhaps you can explain more about your decision to switch to them. (granted, I haven't read your press release on the subject yet, I'll do that right now)

 Also, perhaps you can tell us more about the origin of the "unprofessional" comment in the press releases? 

 @ The Mad Kaiser: It's not that bad, man. And Monte's not a snake. He's doing what he thinks is right for one thing, and for another he has a business agreement with S&S already anyway. So there is probably a constellation of reasons why he made the decision to go with DTRPG.


----------



## Fiery James (Jun 8, 2004)

Bloodstone Press said:
			
		

> I don't know. Have you not been looking?
> 
> Yeah, I think FDP is among the upper levels of the hierarchy. You were mentioned in the business plan I wrote back in 2001. Although I haven't bought any FDP products, I have heard plenty of good things about them. I would consider you to be in the same boat as Monte and Necromancer Games.  Being part of the DTRPG brouhaha only adds to that perception.




Well, then, from a publicity stand point, this has really paid off for us!  (Before the shouting starts, I said "publicity" as opposed to "PR"! )
Being compared to Necromancer and Malhavoc is a big accomplishment for us.  There was a time when it was easier to lump us in that category -- back when we had our publishing deal with Sword & Sorcery -- but since we've been on our own, we've been pretty content to live a smaller-scale existence focusing on d20 Accessories, and now, mini-games.  I feel honored to be mentioned in your business plan, though.  We started as 3 dudes sitting around a kitchen table, and now we're 6 dudes e-mailin eachother every few days, but we're still a small company in any terms.  (Of course, most RPG companies are).

In terms of PDF sales, if everyone who voted YES on this poll
 bought a PDF, we'd triple or quadruple our sales. We were not one of the big revenue generators on RPGNow, by any means. 



			
				Bloodstone Press said:
			
		

> Note, I'm not spiteful or bitter about any of this, as some people here seem to be. If this is a good move for you, than I'm happy for you. If not, then I'll be happy to see you and Monte and the others come back to RPGnow.
> 
> Really, what I'd like to see happen in the future is for DTRPG to come off the exclusivity clause in their contract so their vendors can still sell on other sites. They need to come up with some other sort of added value besides DRM to appeal to more vendors (if that is their plan).
> 
> Perhaps you can explain more about your decision to switch to them. (granted, I haven't read your press release on the subject yet, I'll do that right now)




I think DTRPG will be watching and evaluating the numbers very closely over the next weeks and months, and decisions will be based on sales figures rather than message board posts.  Don't get me wrong -- I think that this may be providing valuable feedback and letting people express their opinions, but if, at the end of the day, everyone's sales hold steady, then a lot of arguments against DTRPG lose a lot of weight.  If the messageboard reaction does translate into lost sales, then you'll likely see some reevaluation of things.

As for why we're there -- well, first off, our business at RPGNow was pretty thin.  Up until this point, we've always treated PDFs as an ancillary business, and haven't really focused on them at all.  We tried to get something started earlier, but it didn't quite work out.  So, now we're seriously thinking about doing some projects specifically for PDF or with print-and-pdf releases planned, and if you were trying to figure out which horse to hitch your wagon to, and one site had WW, FFG, Malhavoc, Necromancer -- isn't that a good indicator that _something_ is going on?

We'll have to see what develops!

- James


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 8, 2004)

Bloodstone Press said:
			
		

> The Mad Kaiser: It's not that bad, man. And Monte's not a snake. He's doing what he thinks is right for one thing, and for another he has a business agreement with S&S already anyway. So there is probably a constellation of reasons why he made the decision to go with DTRPG.




I know I sound really snarky and snotty, and I know that many geeks like to keep a European-style _diplomacy-at-all-costs_ attitude (sometimes it's hard to make new friends). This is a good policy when debating the proper way to say _wyvern_. It is a bad policy when you are being stabbed in the face.

The truth is, the Malhavoc people have yet to give a satifactory reason why they would abandon RPGNow for DTRPG. Every statement made, for both them and other publishers, has disintegrated in the light of day, easily crushed by the most basic logic.

So they are basically lying by omission, unwilling to tell us the true reasons. And why would they do this? Why would anyone hide the truth? Because the truth is so ugly as to repulse customers. Is it the truth to say that Malhavoc was tired of being associated with 'lowly' indie presses? Were they desperate to attract 'real' publishers to pdf, making them feel less marginal? Do they really believe their lagging sales are the result of piracy, or that DRM will stop piracy? Or did they just use these lies to placate the cowardly print-publishers?

As the late, great Ron Reagan said: _"Cures were developed for which there were no known diseases."_

This garbage-heap will fail, because (at least American) role-players don't like being dictated to by organizations, and they don't like to rent when they can buy. The pdfs will continue to be traded on p2p, and the prodigal slime will come crawling back.

*whew*

Man, can my soapbox get any higher?

_EDIT
A thought occurs to me; since DTRPG and Malhavoc fall under the WW umbrella, is DTRPG charging no commision for Malhavoc pdfs? That would be a GREAT (greedy) reason to switch..._


----------



## mearls (Jun 8, 2004)

Hey all,

I just wanted to drop a quick note to let you know that we're listening to all the feedback here. I think that a lot of people are a bit surprised by the backlash against DRM technology - it's all relatively new, and there's plenty of issues to consider about it.

Anyway, we're listening. I'm also reading the threads on the main forum and taking notes as appropriate.


----------



## Piratecat (Jun 8, 2004)

Thanks for that, Mike. There's a lot of rhetoric, but underneath it are some very real concerns that will drive away sales. I'm glad you guys are considering them.

(Incidentally, check your email -- I sent you something.)


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## Cergorach (Jun 8, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> I just wanted to drop a quick note to let you know that we're listening to all the feedback here. I think that a lot of people are a bit surprised by the backlash against DRM technology - it's all relatively new, and there's plenty of issues to consider about it.



THUD!

*the sound of mr.c's jaw dropping on the floor*

Your kidding right, or being sarcastic or something._Please say yes!_ There are actually people that are suprised by the amount of negativity regarding DRM on rpg products? Please let me know who those people are, then i can make a new list "game designers that actually life in the fantasy world they design"...

Sorry, but if there was done any research beyond the corporate dribble DRM selling companies gave, then it should be obvious that most of the non-corporate computer literate consumers absolutely hate the idea of DRM.


----------



## Steve Wieck (Jun 8, 2004)

Kosala said:
			
		

> *Vendors and DriveThru*
> For vendors and publishers I am unclear on DriveThru's policies. I have been trying to get them to answer me on what policies and procedures need to be adhered to as a vendor selling PDFs there but no clear answer has been forthcoming. Its possible that they expect all vendors to sign exclusivity deals to agree to sell there, but I am as yet unsure of this. When I contacted them about it they asked me to send in sample pages of one of our upcoming PDFs for "approval"




Just to keep debunking misinformation here. Kosala and I have traded a couple e-mails about DriveThruRPG.com's publisher terms and no where in those e-mails did I use the word "approval" as Kosala would indicate in his quoted message above.

Just as I know James at RPGNow does, we would naturally want to review material for legal-pornogrpahy reasons as well as to make sure we're not loading up vaporware products. That's not the same thing in my mind as "approval".

DriveThruRPG.com did not approach pdf-only publishers prior to our launch for a couple reasons 1) Too busy to take on the additional publisher clients and provide any level of service and 2) We have no enimity for James and RPGNow and feel no compulsion to aggressively compete with his great business by aggressively pursruing his whole publisher base and redundantly offering them to the market. (If we had done so, we'd probably now be enjoying posts about "beating up on the little-guy pioneer" instead of posts about being "elitist").

When we are prepared to take on and properly service more publishers we will make the type of terms Kosala (and others here have discussed in posts) available for publishers to review. There's not much point in our taking on more publishers if we can't treat them properly. It's not being elitist it's being realistic.

Finally, while James did mention to me back in January that he used the OSCommerce for his site and would recommend it, we had already selected that software ourselves. James has been very helpful and we continue to explore ways that RPGNow and DriveThruRPG can raise awareness of the benefits of electronic rpgs so that all boats rise with the tide.

Steve


----------



## Conaill (Jun 8, 2004)

So Steve... care to comment on that "first completely professional" claim in the press release? That sure seems to have ruffled a lot of feathers...

Also, are you planning to track the effectiveness of your DRM protection by, say, scanning Kazaa? Haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if a cracked version of your free demos was already available!


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## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 8, 2004)

Bloodstone Press said:
			
		

> Really, what I'd like to see happen in the future is for DTRPG to come off the exclusivity clause in their contract so their vendors can still sell on other sites. They need to come up with some other sort of added value besides DRM to appeal to more vendors (if that is their plan).




This is very unlikely to happen.. This is because they chose to use Acrobat Content Server for their delivery engine, which requires all PDFs it serves to be Acrobat 6.0 generated, DRM-ready files. The only way they would possibly allow a break in the exclusivity is if:

1.) The vendor was substantial enough to force the break (only a hanful are, WotC and perhaps Palladium)

2.) The secondary vendors also used the Acrobat DRM model.


so it will be awhile before anyone escapes the exclusivity clause without dumping DTRPG as a vendor.


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## Cergorach (Jun 8, 2004)

Conaill said:
			
		

> So Steve... care to comment on that "first completely professional" claim in the press release? That sure seems to have ruffled a lot of feathers...



He already has, here:
http://rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127041&perpage=10&pagenumber=50


> As for the "professional" verbiage in press releases I have discussed that with James at RPGNow and apologized to him. It is, as has already been said here, marketing-speak that broke into a greyzone.
> 
> Steve






> Also, are you planning to track the effectiveness of your DRM protection by, say, scanning Kazaa? Haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if a cracked version of your free demos was already available!



I have looked, nothing yet in the usual channels ;-)


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 8, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Just to keep debunking misinformation here.




Please do. You can start by answering these questions:




			
				Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Just as I know James at RPGNow does, we would naturally want to review material for legal-pornogrpahy reasons as well as to make sure we're not loading up vaporware products. That's not the same thing in my mind as "approval".




How many have been rejected?
How many popular non-print publishers have been aquired?
What is your commision rate(s)?




			
				Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> DriveThruRPG.com did not approach pdf-only publishers prior to our launch for a couple reasons 1) Too busy to take on the additional publisher clients and provide any level of service and 2) We have no enimity for James and RPGNow and feel no compulsion to aggressively compete with his great business by aggressively pursruing his whole publisher base and redundantly offering them to the market.




Then why was your company trying to aquire RPGNow?
Why did James turn you down?
If you can't handle more than 16 publishers at a time, what would you have done to the "additional publisher clients" already selling at RPGNow?
What makes pdf-only publishers so "service intensive" compaired to print-only?
If you do not wish to "aggressively compete" with RPGNow, why do you insist that popular (now former RPGNow) publishers be exclusive?




			
				Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> When we are prepared to take on and properly service more publishers we will make the type of terms Kosala (and others here have discussed in posts) available for publishers to review. There's not much point in our taking on more publishers if we can't treat them properly. It's not being elitist it's being realistic.




So you aren't _ready_ take on and properly service publishers? You were _ready_ to take over RPGNow.
Your site brags it's the first "All Professional" pdf site. Will you change this motto to match your _"When we are prepared to take on and properly service more publishers we will make the type of terms... available for publishers to review."_ statement?
What exactly do you mean by 'properly service'? What services do you offer publishers beyond a check and webspace?
Couldn't you save everyone much work by removing the questionable and unpopular DRM restrictions?

You don't need to answer the questions of a lowly 'unprofessional' dog, but your silence will speak volumes for me.

_EDIT

And let the record show, I'm glad the 'pros' are leaving RPGNow. I'm POed that they'll be coming back after Drive-Spew sinks like a turd. And worse, this time it'll be with their friends from the formerly ludite 'print-only' crowd that was too cowardly to try something new, until us "unprofessionals" took a chance and broke new ground._


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 8, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> Hey all,
> 
> I just wanted to drop a quick note to let you know that we're listening to all the feedback here. I think that a lot of people are a bit surprised by the backlash against DRM technology - it's all relatively new, and there's plenty of issues to consider about it.
> 
> Anyway, we're listening. I'm also reading the threads on the main forum and taking notes as appropriate.






Dude, exactly what planet have you guys been living on since 1999?!

Adobe has been offering some form of DRM since somewhere in the Acrobat 4.x release series, nearly six years ago. They've been pushing it on publishers the entire time. Not coincidentally, they have also been making new versions completely incompatible with prior versions, forcing you to keep multiple installations of Acrobat Reader in their "evil Adobe plot to steal your hard drive from Microsoft*"

All amusement aside, yes, that's correct, Adobe has been offering incarnations of DRM for half a decade. Adobe DRM has been around for half the world wide web's lifespan at this point. The fact that you guys think it is something new should suggest to you something important: Adobe DRM has yet to properly do anything it claims.


* this plot is as of yet unconfirmed and there for nothing but inane rumormongering


----------



## Flyspeck23 (Jun 8, 2004)

About "completely professional gaming e-Book site". Well, you _could_ say that some of the vendors at RPG Now aren't that professional (but that'd include some of the bigger companies too, mind you), but RPG Now _as a site_ (as that's what that sentence is implying)? No way.




			
				Fiery James said:
			
		

> So, now we're seriously thinking about doing some projects specifically for PDF or with print-and-pdf releases planned, and if you were trying to figure out which horse to hitch your wagon to, and one site had WW, FFG, Malhavoc, Necromancer -- isn't that a good indicator that _something_ is going on?



Don't get me wrong - I wish you all the best.

It's not this whole "exclusive vendors" issue or anything else, it's that darn DRM. If DriveThruRPG wouldn't use that, I wouldn't mind the "big guys" (and Fiery Dragon  ) marchin' there.

If, as Monte Cook says, the main benefit of the DRM is to bring more print publishers into ePublishing, and that same print publishers are pricing their PDFs way too high, that's no benefit at all IMHO.

It certainly won't stop piracy. And in fact the only people that'll feel the DRM's presence at all are the honest customers.




			
				mearls said:
			
		

> Anyway, we're listening. I'm also reading the threads on the main forum and taking notes as appropriate.



It's kind of late for that, don't you think?


----------



## Kosala (Jun 8, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Just to keep debunking misinformation here. Kosala and I have traded a couple e-mails about DriveThruRPG.com's publisher terms and no where in those e-mails did I use the word "approval" as Kosala would indicate in his quoted message above.




Just to be clear I do not see it as negative that you want to approve publisher content before admitting a new publisher. My first email to you was asking about policies for your work with publishers. You responded by asking me to send a sample PDF. That sounded very much like an approval process to me. I do not however see that as a nagative thing and did not mean it as such in my quote here.




			
				Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Just as I know James at RPGNow does, we would naturally want to review material for legal-pornogrpahy reasons as well as to make sure we're not loading up vaporware products. That's not the same thing in my mind as "approval".




That is exactly the same thing as approval. And once again, I do not see that as being strange. It would be very peculiar if you did not have an approval process.


----------



## mearls (Jun 8, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> All amusement aside, yes, that's correct, Adobe has been offering incarnations of DRM for half a decade. Adobe DRM has been around for half the world wide web's lifespan at this point. The fact that you guys think it is something new should suggest to you something important: Adobe DRM has yet to properly do anything it claims.




PDF publishing, and even the Internet, are still big scary things for most RPG companies. Compare the typical RPG website to, say, ESPN.com or Amazon. RPG publishers are far behind the curve. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only full-time RPG employee who understands C, Java, and Perl.

Sure, there are a lot of smaller companies that have gone with PDFs, and even Wizards go into the game early on, but most of the mid-tier publishers and industry people are terrified of piracy and distrustful of PDF technology.

The other problem to look at is the divide between how customers use PDFs and how publishers look at them. If you download PDFs to one computer, say a laptop, and use them there exclusively on that machine (including printing) you aren't liable to notice much difference with the move to DRM aside from the initial set up. I've been testing it myself, and I don't see any difference. (That aside, there's been plenty of valid concerns, particularly the problems encountered when going to Kinko's or a similar place for printing.)

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. But I am saying you need to look at this from a publisher's point of view. Few, if any, of them are tech heads.


----------



## mearls (Jun 8, 2004)

Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> It's kind of late for that, don't you think?




People run companies, not the other way around. I have no idea how this will end up, since I can't say anything definitive until I see some hard data, but if people are unhappy it's our duty to our customers to try to make them happy.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Jun 8, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> PDF publishing, and even the Internet, are still big scary things for most RPG companies. Compare the typical RPG website to, say, ESPN.com or Amazon. RPG publishers are far behind the curve. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only full-time RPG employee who understands C, Java, and Perl.
> 
> Sure, there are a lot of smaller companies that have gone with PDFs, and even Wizards go into the game early on, but most of the mid-tier publishers and industry people are terrified of piracy and distrustful of PDF technology.
> 
> ...





I understand why some companies only want to get involved if there is copy protection (I don't agree, but I understand). 

My question to you Mike is why did Malhavoc choose to go here as well. Malhavoc has been at the forefront of PDF rpg products and seemed to be doing quite well at RPGnow with regular PDFs. While other publishers may be impressed with the phantom security that DRM offers I can't imagine that you or Monte really believe that DRM technology will really stop your product from being pirated. If it is true that you have the option of working with DTRPG or not, what is it about their service that made you switch vendors and formats.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 8, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> but if people are unhappy it's our duty to our customers to try to make them happy.




That is certainly refreshing to hear.  Honestly.

However, in addition to adobe DRM being old, DRM type technologies have been on the receiving end of consumer backlash before as well.  So it may be new to RPG publishing.  But it ain't new by a longshot and there is no reason to think that the RPG consumers will be slightly more open to this than the public at large was in other instances.  Heck, I'd bet the RPG audience (and even more so the PDF using RPG audience) is MORE sensitive to this kind of thing.


----------



## lrsach01 (Jun 8, 2004)

What about those people who don't use Microsoft? I'm a Linux user. Have been for years. All of my pdf's open easily in the 5.0 version of Acrobat reader but I understand the 6.0 version is required. Adobe doesn't have a 6.0 for linux let alone the .NET backbone. In other words, DTRPG wants to sell me pdf versions of material that is only a few dollars cheaper than the print version AND I would have to buy WindowsXP. For some people, this would also mean a new computer! Luckily I'm a comp-net so my machine is pretty new but some people aren't so lucky.

Bottom line is, unless a DRM pdf is significantly cheaper, there is no advantage over  the print version.


----------



## Flyspeck23 (Jun 8, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> People run companies, not the other way around. I have no idea how this will end up, since I can't say anything definitive until I see some hard data, but if people are unhappy it's our duty to our customers to try to make them happy.



Well, at my desk, the company runs me 

We all make mistakes. If one's willing to correct these mistakes, that's all well and good... if he even sees them, that is. Emotions are running a little wild right now, so I honestly can't tell who's right and who's wrong - those companies that think DRM is a good thing, or those (including my own, and therefore me  ) that don't.

My shaolin freelancer told me that I'm right, and while that doesn't say much, he's at least a lot more level-headed than most (including me). Guess that's what this whole shalin thing's all about...


----------



## Flyspeck23 (Jun 8, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> I'm not saying it's right or wrong. But I am saying you need to look at this from a publisher's point of view. Few, if any, of them are tech heads.



But most, if not all, (hopefully) are customers too.

See, TOGC is a little flyspeck of a company, but for any decision I make I try to look at it from a customer's perspective. One result of that was our Gaming Group License (one customer, up to 8 people using the PDFs).

If one person buys some material, eBook or not, he or she is bound to share that with his gaming group. Why would anyone want to discourage that?


----------



## The Sigil (Jun 8, 2004)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> THUD!
> 
> *the sound of mr.c's jaw dropping on the floor*
> 
> ...



Ditto.  I posted a nice, drawn-out post on Monte's boards that I'll not re-post here, but the bottom line to me is this...

1.) Any publisher who thinks DRM will inhibit piracy in the slightest is misinformed or simply delusional (I refer you to my .sig).

2.) Any publisher who has been in the PDF field (i.e., catering to computer users) for as long as Malhavoc has and says they're surprised by the backlash... well... let's just say I find that a dubious claim at best.

The "we're surprised" bit might work for FFG.  It just doesn't wash for me with Malhavoc, which has been an innovator in electronic publishing for years and I would think SHOULD have some idea about the general demographics of their customers - specifically that those who recognize the value of a PDF are generally computer-literate types (and I would expect you to note that computer literate types generally dislike DRM with about the same fervor with which cats generally dislike dobermans).

I think you'll find that in the mind of most computer literate types, the "appropriate" response to introducing DRM to a computer-literate customer base and receiving the inevitable backlash is to "back away from DRM as fast as humanly possible."  If you quickly and immediately change course, they can probably chalk it up to, "he's just not computer-literate" and let it go.  But the longer it takes you to retreat from that position, the greater number of  customers there are that will not forgive you even if you do eventually decide to drop it.

I happen to be a "forgiving" customer who won't buy anything DRM but will likely come back once it's dropped.  There are others who will never buy from you again now that you've broached it (see: Turbotax).  There are still others who will buy from you if you come off DRM in  a day but if you stay on for a day will never buy from you again.  Repeat the previous sentence with "two days" and "a week" and "a month" etc. substituted for "a day."

Basically, by broaching DRM, you have instantly and permanently lost some customers.  You have instantly and temporarily lost others, who will come back if you remove DRM.  BUT, the longer you stay with DRM, the more customers move from the "Temporarily Lost" pool to "Permanently Lost" pool no matter what you subsequently do.

I'm not telling you how to run your business.  But I am telling you that my experience with PDF users is that they are also computer savvy.  My experience with computer-savvy users is that they fall into the pattern above.  That's not a threat, it's friendly advice.

--The Sigil


----------



## LeaderDesslok (Jun 8, 2004)

Late last night I was finally able to connect to the site and login. I´ve given my address info before, but why was my phone number a required field? I HATE giving out my phone number online!

I went browsing and decided I´d get the free Witchcraft core rulebook from Eden Studios to give the site and DRM a try. I downoaded easily enough, but I cancelled the activation of DRM to see what happens. Surprisingly, the file still opened up without a hitch. My version of Adobe Reader 6 is only a week old, so I know I didn´t do anything to activate DRM. I don´t understand how it seems to be magically activated on my machine.

One last thing: The Eden Studios entry for Witchcraft says the book usually sells for $35, so I figured this was a special deal for the new site. Well, this morning I realized that I had already downloaded the Witchcraft core rules from RPGNow.com back in August of last year for free! As I recall, they either were either coming out with a new edition or weren´t going print format anymore, so they were giving away the core book for free. The Drivethrurpg site makes it look like you´re getting a huge deal. (Note: RPGNow is no longer offering the core rulebook on its site).

I have confirmed...
* DRM is *not* active on my machine
* The file is secured by DRM
* I can print to my heart´s content
* I can copy the file to another folder with a different name, send it to a friend, and he can open it and print it
* When I select individual text elements to copy, it still tells me that I can only make 10 copies to clipboard in 10 days (retarded)

Somehow my PDF file is _kinda sorta _ secure.


----------



## ngenius (Jun 9, 2004)

*Great analysis of DRM technology*

This is a very interesting form, here on ENWorld.

Very detailed and informative!!! But you guys should really check the MASSIVE,  and I mean massively long list of comments on RPG.net

DriveThruRPG    _discussion

As a user of PDF products, I personally think that restrictive security actually annoys the legitimate users more than the pirates. The pirates always have ways of breaking into most secure products.

Fact is, once a product has been downloaded to a laptop, there is already a security breach. The DRM technology has only been designed to reduce the ease with which normal consumers would attempt piracy. The music industry tried to deter MP3 but failed. What they ended up doing was to accomodate MP3s. I think that a well established site like RPGNow has created a lot of "good-will" that the gaming community who buys their products there, generally tend to shun piracy without needing forced technology protections.

Anyways, I will first test the free products then some of the cheaper ones using DriveThruRPG before making judgement.

Also, for the security buffs, please read the following on DCMA and other issues. The news is old but shows what hackers have in mind.

http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php?id=823764025

Also remeber Skylarov, the Russian who was guilty of hacking Adobe's DRM technology?

Just my ideas.


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 9, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> PDF publishing, and even the Internet, are still big scary things for most RPG companies. Compare the typical RPG website to, say, ESPN.com or Amazon. RPG publishers are far behind the curve. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only full-time RPG employee who understands C, Java, and Perl.




Well, you can start going into shock now. along with being able to code in those languages, I can also handle Visual basic and its numerous offspring, PHP, ECMAscript, Python, Tin, Macromedia's Actionscript and its offspring,PASCAL, Scheme, TCL, Smalltalk, and FORTRAN. I can probably still program in basic and assembly, but its been at least 15 years since I bothered with either. And I know numerous part-timers and freelancers are quite capable in the same languages as you as well.



> Sure, there are a lot of smaller companies that have gone with PDFs, and even Wizards go into the game early on, but most of the mid-tier publishers and industry people are terrified of piracy and distrustful of PDF technology.




Personally, I tend to think this terror is a side effect of years of hearing about Palladium's irrational fears of losing the rights to their works if so much as a single article gets published by some other company's magazines.




> I'm not saying it's right or wrong. But I am saying you need to look at this from a publisher's point of view. Few, if any, of them are tech heads.




I have looked at it from the publisher's point of view. However, I believe the publishers are also only looking at DRM from Adobe's point of view, which is obviously going to be biased to the point of making a turd shine like a diamond. How much research did you guys do into the flaws of Adobe's DRM models?


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 9, 2004)

LeaderDesslok said:
			
		

> Late last night I was finally able to connect to the site and login. I´ve given my address info before, but why was my phone number a required field? I HATE giving out my phone number online!
> 
> I went browsing and decided I´d get the free Witchcraft core rulebook from Eden Studios to give the site and DRM a try. I downoaded easily enough, but I cancelled the activation of DRM to see what happens. Surprisingly, the file still opened up without a hitch. My version of Adobe Reader 6 is only a week old, so I know I didn´t do anything to activate DRM. I don´t understand how it seems to be magically activated on my machine.
> 
> ...




Hmmm... was acrobat reader 6 a clean installation, or an installation over a previous version of acrobat reader?


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 9, 2004)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> I'm not telling you how to run your business.  But I am telling you that my experience with PDF users is that they are also computer savvy.  My experience with computer-savvy users is that they fall into the pattern above.  That's not a threat, it's friendly advice.
> 
> --The Sigil




Sig, you are dead on.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 9, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> But I am saying you need to look at this from a publisher's point of view.




The correct PoV for business is the direction that the money flows.


----------



## Monte At Home (Jun 9, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> My question to you Mike is why did Malhavoc choose to go here as well. Malhavoc has been at the forefront of PDF rpg products and seemed to be doing quite well at RPGnow with regular PDFs.




As I said in my column, it's because I so heartily support the idea of other, print-only publishers, entering into the electronic market. I've always done what I could to support the idea that electronic products are quality products and worth people's time. I entered the field (long before there was an RPGNow) and found great success with it, and so I've grabbed on with both hands. I couldn't even begin to list the articles I've written and interviews I've given to encourage people to try electronic products. (I certainly remember those early days when the numbers of people against pdfs in general were as great or greater than the number of people upset here today. Do some research into pdf publishing and you'll see see that most gamers don't trust it, are wary of it, or just don't like it.) I even wrote for RPGNow's epublishing guide for free to help encourage the professionalism of the marketplace (and I think that that guide did help).

So the idea that DriveThru can get so many publishers into this new market? Yeah, I'll go to great length to support that. And this isn't just altruism on my part, obviously. When a company like White Wolf puts practically their whole catalog on line as electronic products, or when quality companies like Fantasy Flight, Eden, and so on put electronic versions of even their newer releases up for sale, that draws a lot more people into the potential pdf audience and helps change the minds of people who erroneously believe that all pdfs are crap simply by their very medium.

I wish there was a way to get at least some people to see the bigger picture. If you like electronic products, imagine the day when whenever a publisher--any and every publisher--releases a book, it's in both electronic and print format. What DriveThru is doing is the biggest step toward that ideal in the last three years. 

And for what it's worth, just as another data point, I've gotten the helpful folks at DriveThru to relax all cut and paste restrictions on Malhavoc products.


----------



## jgbrowning (Jun 9, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I wish there was a way to get at least some people to see the bigger picture. If you like electronic products, imagine the day when whenever a publisher--any and every publisher--releases a book, it's in both electronic and print format. What DriveThru is doing is the biggest step toward that ideal in the last three years.




I think everyone here understands the great possiblities about the future. Being able to get any book electronically would be simply awesome.

I just think that what the people are trying to get the publishers to understand is that being able to get any product electronically in DRM format *isn't* awesome. For a lot of people, it's actually worse than not being able to get the product (legally) at all.

Honestly, people can already get almost any rpg product in electronic form. What it seems people really think would be awesome would be to get the electronic product *while paying the publisher.* But to do that, the product coming from the publisher has to be at least as user-friendly as the pirated versions. If the files are not as good, the publisher is disincenting their customers to pay, because the for-pay version isn't as good as the free version.



> And for what it's worth, just as another data point, I've gotten the helpful folks at DriveThru to relax all cut and paste restrictions on Malhavoc products.




I'm really glad you got them to listen to you. I hope you'll keep pushing to show them that what the paying customers really want is to be able to whatever they want with what they've purchased. The customer own the copy, not the copyright. And the reverse goes for publishers: we own the copyright, *not the copy.*

joe b.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 9, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I wish there was a way to get at least some people to see the bigger picture.




I'm struggling with how to say this politely.  Please accept that it is meant to be so.

First, that sounds absurdly arrogant.  


And considering the checkered past of DRM technologies in various fields, and the numerous unresolved and unanswered questions regarding this move, regardless of whether I see the big picture or not, it seems highly questionable that the people defending this move do.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Jun 9, 2004)

First let me say thank you for answering. I have always supported Malhavoc and any comments I make should be taken with that in mind.



			
				Monte At Home said:
			
		

> As I said in my column, it's because I so heartily support the idea of other, print-only publishers, entering into the electronic market. I've always done what I could to support the idea that electronic products are quality products and worth people's time. I entered the field (long before there was an RPGNow) and found great success with it, and so I've grabbed on with both hands. I couldn't even begin to list the articles I've written and interviews I've given to encourage people to try electronic products. (I certainly remember those early days when the numbers of people against pdfs in general were as great or greater than the number of people upset here today. Do some research into pdf publishing and you'll see see that most gamers don't trust it, are wary of it, or just don't like it.) I even wrote for RPGNow's epublishing guide for free to help encourage the professionalism of the marketplace (and I think that that guide did help)..




I don't think anyone will deny the great effort you have put into making PDFs a respected part of the RPG market. 



			
				Monte At Home said:
			
		

> So the idea that DriveThru can get so many publishers into this new market? Yeah, I'll go to great length to support that. And this isn't just altruism on my part, obviously. When a company like White Wolf puts practically their whole catalog on line as electronic products, or when quality companies like Fantasy Flight, Eden, and so on put electronic versions of even their newer releases up for sale, that draws a lot more people into the potential pdf audience and helps change the minds of people who erroneously believe that all pdfs are crap simply by their very medium..




So you moved to DTRPG because if you hadn't these other companies wouldn't have trusted DTRPG but your pressence made the difference and that without your moving to DTRPG these other companies would not have agreed to sell there products as PDFs at all. Is that correct? Even White Wolf who owns DTRPG and has by far the largest catalog availible wouldn't have done this venture at all if you wern't aboard?



			
				Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I wish there was a way to get at least some people to see the bigger picture. If you like electronic products, imagine the day when whenever a publisher--any and every publisher--releases a book, it's in both electronic and print format. What DriveThru is doing is the biggest step toward that ideal in the last three years.




The bigger picture from a consumer point of view is that even if all products are made availible in print and electronic format from day one, if the electronic format is one that you can't use effectively or at all it is the same as having no electronic option at all. I'm glad you are working to bring more publishers into the electronic market, but by taking them down the road of a format that is destined to fail are you realy doing the best thing for them. I'm still confused on this point. Do you realy believe that DRM is the way of the future or are you willing to sacrifice your own profits so that these other publishers will publish at all?



			
				Monte At Home said:
			
		

> And for what it's worth, just as another data point, I've gotten the helpful folks at DriveThru to relax all cut and paste restrictions on Malhavoc products.




Have the Cut and paste restrictions been removed altogether or are they just lessened? This is a good first step and will probably bring back a portion of your lost costomers but there are still many more who this will not help or will still refuse to purchase DRM products altogether. If you realy want your customers back convince DTRPG to sell your PDFs with no DRM altogether as you were so successfuly doing previously. If other companies insist on DRM for their products that is their choice, but lead through example (Unless you realy believe that DRM is better).


----------



## Psion (Jun 9, 2004)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> The customer own the copy, not the copyright. And the reverse goes for publishers: we own the copyright, *not the copy.*




Brilliant summation, joe. That, to me, is what it is all about.


----------



## Psion (Jun 9, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> As I said in my column, it's because I so heartily support the idea of other, print-only publishers, entering into the electronic market.




Why does this require Malhavoc's participation in DriveThruRPG? Using DRM to get skittish publishers to participate where they never would before is great. But you were already established. You already lent your experience about the relation between PDF and print sales, and didn't seem to hold the same misconceptions that your print-first peers seem to have. As far as I can see, Malhavoc gains nothing and loses customers to the aggravation of the DRM model.



> And for what it's worth, just as another data point, I've gotten the helpful folks at DriveThru to relax all cut and paste restrictions on Malhavoc products.




That is good. But please understand this: as far as Malhavoc's customers are concerned, they are worse off than they were a scant few days ago.



> I wish there was a way to get at least some people to see the bigger picture. If you like electronic products, imagine the day when whenever a publisher--any and every publisher--releases a book, it's in both electronic and print format.




If that electronic format is one that I don't know if I will be able to use a few years down the road, I do not see my situation as significantly improved. 

And that is the big picture that I wish you could come to understand.

I never pirate or share files. But when confronted with a product filled with many demonstrated problems and many more uncertainties, that product's arrival is not moving the market forward in any significant way.

Judging from your first reply, you see this as a knee jerk overreaction. You happen by ENWorld from time to time, so I imagine you are familiar with some of the crowd. Take a look around. These aren't the same people that cried when the d20 STL was revised, or the final SRD are issued. There are more level headed folks like (handy example) Buttercup that don't cry the sky is falling when the first cloud flies overhead. There are significant concerns and issues with this technology that a wide base of users are expressing.


----------



## Krieg (Jun 9, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> Sure, there are a lot of smaller companies that have gone with PDFs, and even Wizards go into the game early on, but most of the mid-tier publishers and industry people are terrified of piracy and distrustful of PDF technology.




So basically they've been sold a bill of goods on useless technology that will do absolutely nothing to inhibit piracy but will serve to hinder their legitimate customer base.

Lovely.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jun 9, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I wish there was a way to get at least some people to see the bigger picture. If you like electronic products, imagine the day when whenever a publisher--any and every publisher--releases a book, it's in both electronic and print format. What DriveThru is doing is the biggest step toward that ideal in the last three years.




I think this is an important point as well.  I hope these publishers eventually see the value of PDF sales.  Cause in the end, I think if DriveThru succeeds, it will bring new customers into the market and that helps both RPGNow and DriveThru.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jun 9, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> When we are prepared to take on and properly service more publishers we will make the type of terms Kosala (and others here have discussed in posts) available for publishers to review. There's not much point in our taking on more publishers if we can't treat them properly. It's not being elitist it's being realistic.
> Steve




I look forward to this day Steve.  I think lots of pdf publishers are looking for expansion in the market and that includes more places to sell their ebooks.

I’m curious if DriveThruRPG will be 100% exclusive with all vendors you take on in the future?  Or will it be a case by case basis?


----------



## Sledge (Jun 9, 2004)

I think I see Monte's point.... He looks at DTRPG and sees the VHS vs Betamax issue.  He wants to flood the market with the lower quality format thinking that it will "enrich" the market place.  The bigger picture however is that I can't be bothered to buy books that won't do what I want.  The entire setup of DTRPG has pushed me out of the market for all retailers therein.  As a consumer spending my bucks I'm not about to throw them in the trash to support "The Bigger Picture" when all that means is I get junk.  The real bigger picture is that I will still buy pdfs from RPGNow.  The d20 system gives enough diversity that I will never NEED to bother with DTRPG.  So a year from now we'll have a bunch of companies still using DTRPG and getting only a tiny return.  The nature of the site will either sit forever as a rarely used and much abused site, or collapse.  Either way it will not in the long run inspire further usage of the electronic documents.


----------



## BSF (Jun 9, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> I'm not saying it's right or wrong. But I am saying you need to look at this from a publisher's point of view. Few, if any, of them are tech heads.




OK, this is the publishers forum, so that is a valid point.  But, only in the context of the publisher.  As a customer, I have to look at it from my point of view.  I don't like DRM.  I could go through all my reasons, but they are posted elsewhere and they aren't that different from many other people. Instead, I will just post a single "issue". 

Tomorrow I will be burning some ISO images of the latest release of Fedora so I can install it on a laptop to take with me on vacation.  Why Fedora and not Windows XP?  Because I want to play with Linux.  I would like to take my gaming PDF's with me in case I want to do some game prep.  No biggie since I don't have any DRM PDF's.  But, if I did, I would have to setup that laptop on a network connection with a linux version of a DRM enabled PDF reader, before I leave on Saturday morning.  Then, I would need to "activate" every PDF that I might use on that laptop.  Too much hassle.  A DRM PDF provides less value to me, as a customer.



			
				Monte at Home said:
			
		

> I wish there was a way to get at least some people to see the bigger picture. If you like electronic products, imagine the day when whenever a publisher--any and every publisher--releases a book, it's in both electronic and print format. What DriveThru is doing is the biggest step toward that ideal in the last three years.




That would be great!  If using DRM is what it takes to get some of the publishers to view the market as "legitimate", then more power to them.  I don't wish any ill will to any of the folks involved.  But, if it is DRM PDF's that are making that possible, then I am sorry to say that I won't be part of the consumer base driving that forward.  The writers and publishers have every right to sell their products however they choose.  As a consumer, I choose to buy, or not to buy.  I like PDF's.  I don't like DRM PDF's.  Yes, for many people there won't hardly be any change in the way the PDF's are used.  For me, that isn't quite the case.  I am probably a statistical abberation.  

It's a shame really.  When I bought Book of Eldritch Might, I did it because I thought it was cool that it was a PDF and I wanted to support Monte's courage to do that.  I crossed my fingers and hoped that the PDF wouldn't be crap.  I figured it it was crap, it was a low enough cost that I could eat it.  I liked it and I have supported Malhavoc products by buying the ones that seem to appeal to me.  I wouldn't mind supporting other publishers, but I won't support DRM PDF's.


----------



## ThoughtBubble (Jun 9, 2004)

Well, this discussion prompted me to look at both DTRPG and RPGNOW. And frankly, a lot of the DTRPG stuff looks tempting. If more people had heavy discounts like the WW merchendise I might sign up. 

But, call me stupid, I like printed and bound copies of RPG resources, especially the bigger ones. I like to be able to hand my friends a book, and tell them to read through it. So, most of those books that I can get pre-printed, I probablly will. In the case of the larger works, it's worth the $15 to me to have the solid one there. Though, if it was possible to get a book, and have some sort of one use code for accessing an additional discount on obtaining an electronic copy (or similar product) on DTRPG, I'd probablly be over there in an instant.

On adventures though, a copy on my laptop, and one printed version (B&W, stuffed in a notebook) seems like what I'd go after.

DRM always scares me, simply with regards to the question of "will this work tomorrow?" But I think this is the way that the modern electronic market has to head to remain profitable. It's interesting to watch.


----------



## Flyspeck23 (Jun 9, 2004)

ThoughtBubble said:
			
		

> DRM always scares me, simply with regards to the question of "will this work tomorrow?" But I think this is the way that the modern electronic market has to head to remain profitable. It's interesting to watch.



You're obviously not the only one who thinks so. But copy protection of any sort will only stop casual piracy, and any cracked copy will be superior to the original - is that a good thing?

The "modern electronic market" should focus more on it's strength (for instance, it's easy to do updates, revisions and errata - and reach all previous customers, and their whole product will be fixed). If that'd be done on a regular basis, you'd punish the pirate and _not the customer_.

"Will this work tomorrow?" is a very good question. Let's assume DriveThru isn't around next year (and no, I don't believe that), then what? I'm not exactly a tech head either, so this is another thing I'm not sure about. And not being sure isn't a good thing if I'm a potential customer.


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 9, 2004)

Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> Let's assume DriveThru isn't around next year (and no, I don't believe that)




If it stays afloat, it will only be because money is channeled from a successful WW line to keep it afloat. Their ultimate goal is to drive RPGNow out of business and become the 'Amazon.com' of rpg pdfs. To that end, they will gladly run into the "red" for years, if need be.

Our rural Wal-Marts and Movie Galleries do the same thing;

1) Sell popular items at zero profit, and offer lots of 'freebies'
2) Drive the competition out of town to become Monopoly
3) Jack up prices and treat customers like crap
4) If competition moves in, start all over

It's a popular system, because it works. The chubby fanboys will rush to Drivel-Thru to get the pdfs, the exclusive contracts will insure RPGNow has nothing but "unprofessional" publishers, the chubby fanboys will pay too much for hobbled software, WW will cover it's losses from years before. RPGNow will be ridiculed by the flood of new 'tech-savvy' chubby fanboys for it's lack of pretty covers and 'famous' names.

"So What" you say?

So another avenue for those trying to get into RPG publishing, for love of the game, instead of love of the money, will be destroyed. Real talent will be crushed by the 'machine', and please enjoy White Wolf's newest gem; _"Ravenloft: Van Helsing vs Blackula"_ with my complements.


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 9, 2004)

Hey now.

Some of us chubby folks aren't morons who don't see DRM for what it is, thank you...


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 9, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Hey now.
> 
> Some of us chubby folks aren't morons who don't see DRM for what it is, thank you...




"Chubby Fanboys" is my generic term for the bottom-feeders of the Geek-Chain. I'm sorry if I offended any Chubby Calculus Majors, Chubby Computer Programers, Chubby Dog-Groomers, etc.

I myself am a "Chubby Unproffesional".


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 9, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> So the idea that DriveThru can get so many publishers into this new market? Yeah, I'll go to great length to support that. And this isn't just altruism on my part, obviously. When a company like White Wolf puts practically their whole catalog on line as electronic products, or when quality companies like Fantasy Flight, Eden, and so on put electronic versions of even their newer releases up for sale, that draws a lot more people into the potential pdf audience and helps change the minds of people who erroneously believe that all pdfs are crap simply by their very medium.




Problem is, DTRPG did NOT get so many new publishers into the PDF market. They stole almost half of them right out from under RPGnow with their forced exclusivity. Eden, Fiery Dragon, GoO, Necromancer, and your own Malhavoc Press were all RPGnow vendors. FanPro, WW and Sword & Sorcery were selling or distributing PDFs through their own websites.



> I wish there was a way to get at least some people to see the bigger picture. If you like electronic products, imagine the day when whenever a publisher--any and every publisher--releases a book, it's in both electronic and print format. What DriveThru is doing is the biggest step toward that ideal in the last three years.




Actually, lulu.com was the biggest step in that direction in the last 3 years. One upload, and your product could be available in PDF, Print and CD-ROM formats (they recently dropped the CD-ROMs due to lack of sales). Don't any of you people associated with DTRPG do ANY research?



> And for what it's worth, just as another data point, I've gotten the helpful folks at DriveThru to relax all cut and paste restrictions on Malhavoc products.




So, the cut'n'paste restrictions were a retailer theft of not only open use by the consumer, but vendor product control as well.


----------



## LeaderDesslok (Jun 9, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Hmmm... was acrobat reader 6 a clean installation, or an installation over a previous version of acrobat reader?




(regarding my successful download and use of a DRM file without having DRM activated)

AR6 was a clean installation.  My system went belly up a couple weeks ago and I had to reinstall the OS and numerous apps.  The folders containing Adobe were purged before I reinstalled cleanly from the net.


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## francisca (Jun 9, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I wish there was a way to get at least some people to see the bigger picture.




My initial knee-jerk reaction was some serious anger.  My secondary (other knee) reaction was a Dan Akroyd-ish "Monte, you ignorant slut".... diatribe.  (if you're not an SNL fan, you won't get it -- sorry).  Here is the third pass:

Oh my.  Let me inform *you* of the big picture.  It's the two-headed dragon of privacy and security.  Maintaining them is worth way, way more to me than the ability to get hold of RPG products in print and electronic format.  When deciding where to spend my money on RPG products, this is a no-brainer.  I can:
A) Purchase a product using DRM and trust that my privacy won't be abused and that an exploit won't be found for the big honkin' door that is wide open when the I launch the DRM plug-in.
B) Spend my money on something which does not expose me to these things.

When considering the ramifications of DRM and similar intrusions into my private life, I could not possibly care less what good it might do for the future of RPG publishing.

That is the big picture.  It's way bigger than me, Monte Cook, White Wolf, and the RPG industry.

Again, I don't know who sold you guys on DRM as a means to secure your pdfs, but you should collectively place his/her head on a pike and use it as road sign for those who might follow.



			
				Monte At Home said:
			
		

> And for what it's worth, just as another data point, I've gotten the helpful folks at DriveThru to relax all cut and paste restrictions on Malhavoc products.




Subtracting 1 from inifinty, leaves infinity.  It's a nice gesture, but doesn't do anything to alleviate the problems when viewed from the big picture.


----------



## Steve Wieck (Jun 10, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Problem is, DTRPG did NOT get so many new publishers into the PDF market.




FWIW.
Depends on how you define "into".
Look at the title list the publishers had available in electronic format before DriveThruRPG.com and now after.
White Wolf having 20-30 titles is not the same as 300 and the same is true with most of the other publishers you mentioned.

Having in print titles as well as out of print titles.
Releasing new titles electroncially simultaneously with print.

Steve


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## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 10, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> FWIW.
> Depends on how you define "into".
> Look at the title list the publishers had available in electronic format before DriveThruRPG.com and now after.
> White Wolf having 20-30 titles is not the same as 300 and the same is true with most of the other publishers you mentioned.
> ...




Oh, give it a rest. White Wolf may not own DTRPG, but White Wolf's owners do. Do you honestly think we're all going to keep buying into your "WW doesn't own DTRPG" claims any further, when we know the project was initiated by White Wolf thanks to the fact that it was WW, not its owners, that approached RPGnow with an attempted buyout at the start of the year?

WW has had DTRPG in the works for at least six months. It is no surprise that they held off on selling more PDFs through their old store when they knew that a little patience would get them a false sense of security about their own PDF products and make it look like DTRPG has had a significant impact. And no, it is not true of the other publishers. FanPro offers fewer PDFs than they had previously. GoO only added a few. Same for Eden. Malhavoc, I don't think added any new product. Overall, DTRPG has had little impact in the offering of its vendors, since most of them already offered in print titles as PDFs.

Hate to tell you this, but your smoke projector is running out of mineral oil and your mirrors are all broken.


----------



## Steve Wieck (Jun 10, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Oh, give it a rest. White Wolf may not own DTRPG, but White Wolf's owners do. .




While I cannot comment on the complete ownership of the companies, I have already stated that I'm involved with both, so I thought I already put that to rest?



> FanPro offers fewer PDFs than they had previously. GoO only added a few. Same for Eden. Malhavoc, I don't think added any new product. Overall, DTRPG has had little impact in the offering of its vendors, since most of them already offered in print titles as PDFs.
> 
> Hate to tell you this, but your smoke projector is running out of mineral oil and your mirrors are all broken.




I believe GoO had about 4? titles on RPGNow now they are at 36 and counting.
And FFG? and FGU? and HDI? and GDW? and FFE? and Dork Storm? and Feder & Schwert?
and the offerings AEG and Chaosium and DP9 will shortly have?

I guess we just see this quite differently.

Steve


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## Vigilance (Jun 10, 2004)

edited by request


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 10, 2004)

Why are you avoiding these questions, Wieck?




			
				Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Just to keep debunking misinformation here.




Please do. You can start by answering these questions:




			
				Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Just as I know James at RPGNow does, we would naturally want to review material for legal-pornogrpahy reasons as well as to make sure we're not loading up vaporware products. That's not the same thing in my mind as "approval".




How many have been rejected?
How many popular non-print publishers have been aquired?
What is your commision rate(s)?




			
				Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> DriveThruRPG.com did not approach pdf-only publishers prior to our launch for a couple reasons 1) Too busy to take on the additional publisher clients and provide any level of service and 2) We have no enimity for James and RPGNow and feel no compulsion to aggressively compete with his great business by aggressively pursruing his whole publisher base and redundantly offering them to the market.




Then why was your company trying to aquire RPGNow?
Why did James turn you down?
If you can't handle more than 16 publishers at a time, what would you have done to the "additional publisher clients" already selling at RPGNow?
What makes pdf-only publishers so "service intensive" compaired to print-only?
If you do not wish to "aggressively compete" with RPGNow, why do you insist that popular (now former RPGNow) publishers be exclusive?




			
				Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> When we are prepared to take on and properly service more publishers we will make the type of terms Kosala (and others here have discussed in posts) available for publishers to review. There's not much point in our taking on more publishers if we can't treat them properly. It's not being elitist it's being realistic.




So you aren't _ready_ take on and properly service publishers? You were _ready_ to take over RPGNow.
Your site brags it's the first "All Professional" pdf site. Will you change this motto to match your _"When we are prepared to take on and properly service more publishers we will make the type of terms... available for publishers to review."_ statement?
What exactly do you mean by 'properly service'? What services do you offer publishers beyond a check and webspace?
Couldn't you save everyone much work by removing the questionable and unpopular DRM restrictions?

I'm sure we would all love to hear your answers. Or is Dana correct? Are you just smoke and glass?


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Jun 10, 2004)

The Mad Kaiser said:
			
		

> What exactly do you mean by 'properly service'? What services do you offer publishers beyond a check and webspace?




There are plenty of unanswered questions but this one has been. Clark over at Necromancer has stated that the reason they have decided to use DTRPG was that Necromancer had to do 0 work. All they had to do was provide the files they gave to the printer and DTRPG would convert and optimize the files for distribution, run the store, decide on apropriate pricing and send back a check every so often. This way Necromancer could focus on writing books and not worring about anything whatsover in regards to PDF sales. (Except maybe dealing with the PR problem that this has caused) I am not saying this is neccesarily difficult work but some people are not interested in doing it themselves.


----------



## Henry (Jun 10, 2004)

Dana Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Hate to tell you this, but your smoke projector is running out of mineral oil and your mirrors are all broken.






			
				The Mad Kaiser said:
			
		

> I'm sure we would all love to hear your answers. Or is Dana correct? Are you just smoke and glass?





Dana and Kaiser, I can appreciate wanting answers to some very pressing questions, and certainly don't mind them, but adding insult is not the best way to go about it.


----------



## froggie (Jun 10, 2004)

*forced?*

No one compelled us to work through this method, we chose to. The reason?

1) its 0 effort for us
2) its more secure
3) we really do not care at all about pdf sales, we sell books. Biut if someone wants a pdf, great.

Bill Webb


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## Psion (Jun 10, 2004)

> What exactly do you mean by 'properly service'? What services do you offer publishers beyond a check and webspace?




One thing they offer is scanning/ocring products and producing the PDFs. This gave many publishers an opportunity and selling point that had nothing to do with DRM, and I know at least one publisher for whom the DRM was not a selling point at all.

So not all participating publishers are under the illusion that you can't easily bypass DRM protections (c'mon ... I've read carefully tiptoed around methods designed not to aggravate the mods and I still got the point); it was the rest of DTRPG's sales pitch that pulled them in.


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 10, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Oh, give it a rest. White Wolf may not own DTRPG, but White Wolf's owners do. Do you honestly think we're all going to keep buying into your "WW doesn't own DTRPG" claims any further, when we know the project was initiated by White Wolf thanks to the fact that it was WW, not its owners, that approached RPGnow with an attempted buyout at the start of the year?
> 
> WW has had DTRPG in the works for at least six months. It is no surprise that they held off on selling more PDFs through their old store when they knew that a little patience would get them a false sense of security about their own PDF products and make it look like DTRPG has had a significant impact. And no, it is not true of the other publishers. FanPro offers fewer PDFs than they had previously. GoO only added a few. Same for Eden. Malhavoc, I don't think added any new product. Overall, DTRPG has had little impact in the offering of its vendors, since most of them already offered in print titles as PDFs.
> 
> Hate to tell you this, but your smoke projector is running out of mineral oil and your mirrors are all broken.



 GOO, Malhavoc, Eden - I really think they're acting out of ignorance, that they really do like their customers and really want to put out good products.  I really believe that they want to do produce good games and appreciate customers.  

I don't think any of that applies to White Wolf, who, from all indications, really believe thier customers are s.


----------



## frankthedm (Jun 10, 2004)

I would recomend making companies that try BS like this suffer.


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## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 10, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> I believe GoO had about 4? titles on RPGNow now they are at 36 and counting.
> And FFG? and FGU? and HDI? and GDW? and FFE? and Dork Storm? and Feder & Schwert?
> and the offerings AEG and Chaosium and DP9 will shortly have?
> 
> ...




GoO had significantly more than that a mere 4 titles. There were at least a dozen, maybe 18. Probably would be more, but that depends on how long ago they signed their contract with DTRPG. Same goes for all the vendors formerly selling through DTRPG. Without knowing how long ago the contracted with DTRPG, we really can't even begin to calculate how that deal may have influenced the growth of their catalog listings on RPGnow.

FGU, well, you could find yourself with problems there. Those games are so old that the contracts with FGU likely didn't include electronic rights. On top of that, many of the games are in a state where the actual game authors now control the game's copyright, while FGU owns only the trademarks involved with the title (just go talk to Jeff Dee over the endless struggles with publishing a revised version of Villains & Vigilantes)

GDW got sued out of existence more than 10 years ago by TSR. By all rights, those publications should be listed under Quicklink Interactive, not GDW. Hell, the Traveller stuff should be listed as publications of whatever Marc Miller's current company is, and licensed by QLI.

FFG, FFE, & HDI, I admit you brought into the fold of PDF publishing, but it took you six months to organize those contracts. RPGnow has for years brought in that many previously print-only publishers one by one. Please stop trying to play up 6+ months of covert business activity as a sudden and shockingly successful push into the market.

Feder & Schwert... Never heard of them. I assume they're one of the foreign language companies you have as vendors? I'm not impressed; RPGnow has a polish and an italian publisher doing business with them.

As for AEG, Chaosium, and DP9, please, stop counting your eggs before they hatch. Signed contracts aren't worth much until both parties are living up to their end of the agreement. And as I recall, there have been a few false starts in online publishing from at least one of those three.

Now, as for not being able to comment on the ownership of DTRPG, can we now assume you're backpedalling from your previously vehement denails of WW ownership of DTRPG?


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 10, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> There are plenty of unanswered questions but this one has been. Clark over at Necromancer has stated that the reason they have decided to use DTRPG was that Necromancer had to do 0 work. All they had to do was provide the files they gave to the printer and DTRPG would convert and optimize the files for distribution, run the store, decide on apropriate pricing and send back a check every so often. This way Necromancer could focus on writing books and not worring about anything whatsover in regards to PDF sales. (Except maybe dealing with the PR problem that this has caused) I am not saying this is neccesarily difficult work but some people are not interested in doing it themselves.




Not much of a benefit. I believe RPGnow also offers much of this as a fee-based service for its vendors. Of course, looking at the pricing, I can't help wonder how many vendors are allowing DTRPG to decide the pricing for them.


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 10, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Dana and Kaiser, I can appreciate wanting answers to some very pressing questions, and certainly don't mind them, but adding insult is not the best way to go about it.




Sorry, I'm just tired of listening to Steve trying to pass off six or more months of covert, behind the scenes business activity as some sort of miracle that occurred overnight.


----------



## Cergorach (Jun 10, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> As for AEG, Chaosium, and DP9, please, stop counting your eggs before they hatch. Signed contracts aren't worth much until both parties are living up to their end of the agreement. And as I recall, there have been a few false starts in online publishing from at least one of those three.



Chaosium now has four products at the DTRPG site.

FanPro is also very nice catch, besides doing the english version of Das Swarze Auge, they also publish Battletech and Shadowrun.

I am disappointed that the one Dragonlance book at DTRPG was removed, apperently they didn't have the rights to publish it electronically (right when i was gouing to buy it)...


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 10, 2004)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> I am disappointed that the one Dragonlance book at DTRPG was removed, apperently they didn't have the rights to publish it electronically (right when i was gouing to buy it)...




Yeah, I was thinking about getting that one as well.


----------



## Kosala (Jun 10, 2004)

Ok, I thought I might pop in a few statements here.

Firstly whether WW owns DTRpg or not is not the issue. Companies are allowed to start subsidiaries in related markets you know. Even if DTRpg is unrelated to White Wolf and it just happens the Steve Wieck is involved with both...what does that have to do with it? He is allowed to be involved in two companies if he wants to. 

Has the involvement of his and White Wolfs in this venture made it easier to get names on board that previously stayed away from services like RPGnow? Of course it has. No suprises there. Sword and Sorcery already publish Malhavoc Press books, its no surprise that once White Wolf joined in the act, Malhavoc followed. Although I point out that I do not know this for sure : people should start factoring in the possibility that all publishers working with the Sword & Sorcery label probably did not have a whole lot choice in the exclusive move. Again I am speculating here and this is not fact. But I would think it logical.

So stop insulting the companies. These are people who have worked hard at bringing great product to this industry over a long period of time, I think they have earned a little breathing space and latitude from the rest of us.

Having said that, I do believe that the service and concept of DTrpg should be dicussed heatedly as people have been doing here, just lets try and do it without needing to blame the companies for things that we have no way of knowing for sure.

On the subject of DRM, I have posted before that it seemed to work very well when I tried it. With the exception that you do need to have a internet connected computer to authourise Adobe. Desslock pointed out a seeming flaw in the DRM system in his post before.

We know that Adobe DRM is not foolproof. I think the move for most companies that joined DTRpg had to do with the fact that they got a whole lot of PDF conversion services for no effort, and the fact that DRM goes someway to protecting their IP if not all the way.

Personally I do not believe that the piracy of PDFs goes any significant way to reducing overall sales for a PDF company. But I can understand how the fear of it can lead to a little commercial paranoia on the side of companies.

I would like to see that the competition between DTRpg and RPGnow serve to increase the quality of both services. I do frown upon the exclusivity that DTrpg has with several large players, that limits the industries growth if future services similar to these cannot snag those labels to join their site. And although I see the business sense from the side of DTRpg, I do believe some finger wagging and "tsk tsk'ing" their way is in order for that move.


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## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 10, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> All they had to do was provide the files they gave to the printer and DTRPG would convert and optimize the files for distribution, run the store, decide on apropriate pricing and send back a check every so often.




So are you ready to tell me that taking a pdf (a pdf fully ready for the printer), slapping on the unpopular and worthless DRM, and putting it on a page is so "service intensive" that they can only service 'print' publishers? Take away the DRM step and you have RPGNow.

Are any of the OOP scanned products OCRed? I have never seen anything that would indicate that. Scanning a book without OCR takes at most an hour with a good system. Less than that if you are willing to de-spine the book for a sheet-fed scanner. (I'm sure Dana knows the real numbers)

And besides, so far everything I heard from print publishers (except Malhavoc) is: 

"We don't care about pdf, we care about making books."
"We never sold many pdfs anyway, and we saw a chance to sell with the big boys."
"We don't really think about pdfs sales as anything but extra sales."
"This is a way to get books where print book aren't shipped, and still get paid."

It's obvious these print publishers are ambivalent about pdfs at best, and haughty at worst. I can understand if print publishers are too chicken, too lazy or too ignorant to appreciate pdf publishing. I don't want to hear the lame excuses of publishers, I want to hear Wieck answer those questions.


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## Bloodstone Press (Jun 10, 2004)

> There are plenty of unanswered questions but this one has been. Clark over at Necromancer has stated that the reason they have decided to use DTRPG was that Necromancer had to do 0 work. All they had to do was provide the files they gave to the printer and DTRPG would convert and optimize the files for distribution, run the store, *decide on apropriate pricing* and send back a check every so often.




 This contrasts with previous statements claiming that it is the PUBLISHERS who determine the price of their books. 



> we really do not care at all about pdf sales, we sell books....




 That's not a good thing to say in front of a couple hundred people who buy PDFs. For one, it sounds disingenuous -- I really don't believe you "don't care." 
For seconds, it seems haughty.  



> While I cannot comment on the complete ownership of the companies,




 Why? That only sounds suspicious too. Why would anyone trust a company that hides it's ownership? 

 I'm not trying to be snarky, that's a real, honest question. What if I told people "I can't comment of the ownership of my company." Wouldn't that make you suspicious? 

  Lastly, I'm really trying to be fair here, but it does seem that Mr. Wieck is dodging the Kaiser's questions. I'd like to see some of them answered myself.


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> There are plenty of unanswered questions but this one has been. Clark over at Necromancer has stated that the reason they have decided to use DTRPG was that Necromancer had to do 0 work. All they had to do was provide the files they gave to the printer and DTRPG would convert and optimize the files for distribution, run the store, decide on apropriate pricing and send back a check every so often. This way Necromancer could focus on writing books and not worring about anything whatsover in regards to PDF sales. (Except maybe dealing with the PR problem that this has caused) I am not saying this is neccesarily difficult work but some people are not interested in doing it themselves.






I can honestly say to them "I understand"

Since I hate any type of 'protection' as it is for products they are focusing on their core business which is making killer products for us to buy rather than scrambling to do PDF's. 

It seems that if it were upto them they couldn't give 2 rat ****'s about PDF market.


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Not much of a benefit. I believe RPGnow also offers much of this as a fee-based service for its vendors. Of course, looking at the pricing, I can't help wonder how many vendors are allowing DTRPG to decide the pricing for them.




It's not, because honestly they don't care about PDF's. 

Necro's always been about the fans and the books, PDF's are nice but from browsing through the boards if they had to pay for it and do work on it, they wouldn't have done it. 

More money for 0 work? How could someone not pass that up?


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## maddman75 (Jun 10, 2004)

I really do feel for the publishers.  I imagine they were thinking 'This is going to be cool - we'll have these PDFs for people who either can't get our books, want OOP stuff, or just plain like them.  We don't have to do any extra work, just send these guys the file and cash the check!'  Then this huge controversy over the DRM, which was probably about number four or five in a list of bullet-points.  At least from the way they are acting, it doesn't seem much like this level of resistance, even anger, was expected.

By going with DRM not only are you interfering with your customer using your product, you are morally and ethically throwing yourselves in with folks like the RIAA, known most recently for sueing twelve year old girls.  Not fair, I know, but on an emotional level there's a BIG backlash against any efforts to enforce copyright.  That is why people are saying they don't want to be treated like theives.  Because we've already been treated that way by others.  I already can't buy music CDs because my stereo is my computer, and with some of them having DRMs I can't trust that I can play them.  So I guess I can't buy PDFs either, at least from DTRPG.


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## francisca (Jun 10, 2004)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> I really do feel for the publishers.  I imagine they were thinking 'This is going to be cool - we'll have these PDFs for people who either can't get our books, want OOP stuff, or just plain like them.  We don't have to do any extra work, just send these guys the file and cash the check!'  Then this huge controversy over the DRM, which was probably about number four or five in a list of bullet-points.  At least from the way they are acting, it doesn't seem much like this level of resistance, even anger, was expected.



I certainly don't think that anyone at any of the print-only publishers were trying to piss anyone off.  But you know what, they should have researched this a little bit better.  DRM has been insecure since at least the summer of 2001, probably earlier.  They could have seen early on in the process that DRM was not the silver bullet against file sharing, which was their concern.  I've seen a good argument made that by attempting to protect their product they've done due diligence, and if they go to court over file sharing, they have a leg to stand on.  Time will only tell if that is a valid strategy.  However, they should have looked at the pdf cottage industry and considered what people like about pdf, like ease of use and portability between  individual computers and operating systems.  I mean, selling pdf versions of their material is now a part of their business.  Like any component of a business plan, it needs to be researched fully before plungining in.  So, they should have seen this coming.  Serioulsy.  A few days of googling would have found a mountain of information for them to look through (not that I believe everything I read on the net).  But, as it wasn't their core business before, and this was offered up as a fire-and-forget option, I can see how it happened.  But again, I think they should have researched the market they were entering before signing on.

As for the folks who were doing pdf before,  they should have seen this coming for sure.  Some of the features once touted as a selling point for pdfs have been eliminated or made inconvienient, and with that, DRM allows a third party to poke around your computer.  The PDF publishers should have seen this coming.


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## drnuncheon (Jun 10, 2004)

This probably belongs somewhere else, but the answer might be instructive:

 Are people who publish though DTRPG forced to have DRM, or is it only a _choice_ that they can make?

 In other words, if I, Mr. Game Developer, wanted to have VeryCoolGame (d20 version) sold as a PDF without DRM, would DTRPG accomodate me, or would I need to go to RPGnow for that service?

 J


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## Flyspeck23 (Jun 10, 2004)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> This probably belongs somewhere else, but the answer might be instructive:
> 
> Are people who publish though DTRPG forced to have DRM, or is it only a _choice_ that they can make?
> 
> ...



AFAIK:
1. Yes, you'll have to use DRM.
2. You probably wouldn't be invited to the club


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## Cergorach (Jun 10, 2004)

Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> AFAIK:
> 1. Yes, you'll have to use DRM.
> 2. You probably wouldn't be invited to the club



Even with the Aa Far As I Know posted, this is nothing but guess work. It wouldn't suprise me in the least that if the right person would ask, they would make an exception. Currently DTRPG isn't signing on anyone until they are sure they can handle additional publishers, which is a very wise business decission...


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## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 10, 2004)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> Even with the Aa Far As I Know posted, this is nothing but guess work. It wouldn't suprise me in the least that if the right person would ask, they would make an exception. Currently DTRPG isn't signing on anyone until they are sure they can handle additional publishers, which is a very wise business decission...




Then why would Malhavoc choose to employ it? They have admited DRM does nothing, but they still use it. It must be forced, which makes me think that DTRPG somehow makes money by forcing it. Possibly a commision from Adobe?

And that "be sure they can handle additional publishers" is a load of garbage. They have been working on this for at least six months, and were more than willing to take over RPGNow, which services over 100 publishers.


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## Henry (Jun 10, 2004)

The Mad Kaiser said:
			
		

> And that "be sure they can handle additional publishers" is a load of garbage. They have been working on this for at least six months, and were more than willing to take over RPGNow, which services over 100 publishers.




Take this as reasoned speculation:

Had they purchased RPGNow, they would have already had in place a network, a site, and a staff which was already capable of handling large amounts of vendors and orders. Since they had to build it from scratch, and they wanted to draw vendors from RPGNow's roster as well as from non-PDF vending sources, they went ahead with the DRM management. Had they successfully purchased RPGNow, this would have played out every differently, I think:

1. Drive-Thru purchases RPGNow. Few to NO logistical changes at first, just sell-through existing vendors as they ALWAYS have.

2. Become better versed on the PDF vending industry over time, contacting vendors to let them know the DRM changes coming down the pipe.

3. Announce shortly beforehand that "big changes are coming to RPGNow."

4. Announce the DRM, announce the new publishers they've drawn in, talk about the advantages of DRM, and from X date forward, ALL RPGNow PDF's are DRM. (Name change to Drive-Thru RPG is no longer needed or is optional).

That's just a speculation on my part, but that's why I think they wouldn't have needed more time to handle more vendors; while they are doing the DRM emplacement work and building their upgraded project, RPGNow under new management continues to sell and turn a small profit.


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## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 10, 2004)

To answer some questions...

Do the DTRPG vendors have to use DRM?

The answer is yes. Adobe Content Server is the delivery method DTRPG uses to provide the files to the consumer. Adobe Content Server requires the use of Acrobat 6 and DRM.

How fast can a sheet fed scanner work with a despined book?

Well, back in 1995, on a job converting a massive number of aircraft manuals to digital format for Lockheed Martin (my first post-military defense contractor work, woohoo!), I had a $4500 sheet-fed scanner was able to do about 150 pages per hour, unattended, with a bin holding 600 sheets of paper (this scanner was the size of your average computer desk, mind you). So typically, we were scanning a full bin every 8 hours, or 2400 pages a day (1200 pages during work hours, 1200 more overnight, and the scanner had 8 hours of downtime daily. If I bought a new sheet fed scanner in that price range, it could probably do 2 to 2.5 times the work.


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## GMSkarka (Jun 10, 2004)

Just FYI, the "no work involved for you/we'll convert your print books to PDF" service for print publisher was one of the cornerstones of RPGNow's efforts at this year's GAMA Trade Show, where James sent me armed with loads of informational packets and a drinks-and-dinner budget to woo print publishers.

For whatever reason, most of those folks (and a few who were already our clients) are now on the DTRPG exclusive client list, so I'm guessing that there must've been something else that sealed the deal for them.

This is just my opinion, though.


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## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 10, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Take this as reasoned speculation




I'll take it as a speculation of someone who has zero experience with pdf publishing.  

It requires only 30 minutes to setup a commercial Paypal account. It takes one dedicated human being less than eight hours to Paypal Mass-Pay, once a month. It takes one dedicated human being less than 24 hours to put no less than twenty new products up for sale per day.

That's it. The rest of the stuff has nothing to do with the number of publishers, but general business dealings that all companies must deal with. The truth is, the software does most of the work for the publishers; delivers the pdf, generates sales reports, mass-mails, customer information, wish-lists, coupons, etc. To claim DTRPG is giving publishers some service above and beyond RPGNow is a load of rich, creamery butter. The only thing they do different is force DRM on everyone, carry print compaines only, and demand exclusive contracts. (and possibly waive commision fees for a few months)


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## Flyspeck23 (Jun 10, 2004)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> Even with the Aa Far As I Know posted, this is nothing but guess work.



Of course. That's why it says "AFAIK" in the first place 
And I don't think we'll receive any "official" answers anytime soon.




			
				GMSkarka said:
			
		

> For whatever reason, most of those folks (and a few who were already our clients) are now on the DTRPG exclusive client list, so I'm guessing that there must've been something else that sealed the deal for them.



The DRM?


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## Cergorach (Jun 10, 2004)

The Mad Kaiser said:
			
		

> Then why would Malhavoc choose to employ it? They have admited DRM does nothing, but they still use it. It must be forced, which makes me think that DTRPG somehow makes money by forcing it. Possibly a commision from Adobe?



Commision from Adobe? Yeah... Right... You do know that the server software that DTRPG is using costs in the range of $5,000-$10,000 and that Adobe isn't in the habit to giving that away? The point is that we don't know, and if history is going to repeat itself (as it usually does) then this kind of speculation is going to be preached as being true in another thread...



> And that "be sure they can handle additional publishers" is a load of garbage. They have been working on this for at least six months, and were more than willing to take over RPGNow, which services over 100 publishers.



100 publishers of which 80% are, pardon for the word, crap. RPGnow started small and got bigger piece by piece, they had time to adjust the serverload. The problem is the extra serverload and bandwith usage allocation, which they already didn't guess correctly when they went live with their site. That's not something many companies get right at launch (a new site generates very fluctuating amounts of traffic), so don't go calling down hellfire on the folks at DTRPG because some anti-DRM hotheads at RPG.net and ENworld slashdotted the site. The problem is solved btw, site is reasonably quick at the moment. I expect that in a few weeks, after the controversy around the site has cooled down, they will be opening their doors to new publishers...


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## The Sigil (Jun 10, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> To answer some questions...
> 
> Do the DTRPG vendors have to use DRM?
> 
> The answer is yes. Adobe Content Server is the delivery method DTRPG uses to provide the files to the consumer. Adobe Content Server requires the use of Acrobat 6 and DRM.



Which is likely why, even if the publishers have "huddled amongst themselves" and said, "OMG, we made a huge mistake - we've pissed our fan base off and need to drop DRM" it may still be slow to happen, because doing so requires DTRPG to make a huge shift in its entire delivery system.

IOW, even if they WANTED to change one hour after opening, it probably takes substantially longer for them to be ABLE to do so.


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## Cergorach (Jun 10, 2004)

GMSkarka said:
			
		

> so I'm guessing that there must've been something else that sealed the deal for them.



I think name association sealed the deal. With what company would you rather be associated WW, S&S, or with the multitude of not so professional publishers at RPGnow. RPGnow does has a few 'gem' publishers, but that doesn't compare with the staying power of WW IMHO...


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## francisca (Jun 10, 2004)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> I think name association sealed the deal. With what company would you rather be associated WW, S&S, or with the multitude of not so professional publishers at RPGnow. RPGnow does has a few 'gem' publishers, but that doesn't compare with the staying power of WW IMHO...



Agreed.  That and the fact that WW is an established publisher who understands where folks like Necromancer and FFG are coming from.....uh wait.  That can't be it.  DriveThru and WW have no relation, except for a few people working for both companies.  Right?


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## Psion (Jun 10, 2004)

> I'm guessing that there must've been something else that sealed the deal for them.




I think the association might have been part of it. But from what at least two publishers have said, the services were a big part of it: they didn't have to scan in and create the PDFs themselves.

So, DTRPG sounds like it was a good customer move if you count the publisher as the customer, if not the greatest deal for the end user.


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## Steve Wieck (Jun 10, 2004)

Ok, let's see, so now I'm "avoiding answering" questions just because I haven't been glued to this thread the last 24 hours, lurking to answer Mad Kaiser's questions as soon as he posts them?

And Dana is definitively stating what DriveThruRPG's policies for publishers are even though she has no affiliation with DriveThru?

SOME of your people are a real piece of work.
You want to put words in my mouth, and condescend and insult, but should I dare respond with anything but perfect professional courtesy, whoa! hold on! I'm being elitist and insulting and whatever else. 

Do you interact with people verbally this way in everyday life or do internet forums just release you to be needlessly rude. Yes I said rude, uh oh how unprofessional (pun intended) of me. The key word though was needlessly.

Ever hear of the golden rule.





			
				The Mad Kaiser said:
			
		

> You can start by answering these questions:
> How many have been rejected?
> How many popular non-print publishers have been aquired?
> What is your commision rate(s)?




Zero

That's pretty subjective, but let's say zero

As I've said before we'll release publisher terms when we're ready to take on new publishers and provide them with excellent service.

*
Then why was your company trying to aquire RPGNow?
Why did James turn you down?
*

Because it's a great company.

Ask James if you want details, I treat business discussions very confidentially.

*
If you can't handle more than 16 publishers at a time, what would you have done to the "additional publisher clients" already selling at RPGNow?

What makes pdf-only publishers so "service intensive" compaired to print-only?

If you do not wish to "aggressively compete" with RPGNow, why do you insist that popular (now former RPGNow) publishers be exclusive?
*

Hypothetical question so it's moot, but clearly if one were to acquire 
RPGNow they would also acquire all the tools to continue to service its publishers.

RPGNow has some nice custom programmed features that let publishers upload and update their own products. We have none of that yet. Manually loading up dozens of publishers products, contracting, setting up payables, etc. does take effort. And since I must be glued to forums right now so as not to be "avoiding" questions, we don't have time for it.

If you weren't so darn rude I might even answer this, but instead I'll just say "Why is that any of your business?". We made arrangements with publishers such that they and we are happy with the arrangement. End of story.

*
So you aren't ready take on and properly service publishers? You were ready to take over RPGNow.
Your site brags it's the first "All Professional" pdf site. Will you change this motto to match your "When we are prepared to take on and properly service more publishers we will make the type of terms... available for publishers to review." statement?
*

Inviting in 20 new publishers and then mishandling their products and presentations and not paying them properly is unprofessional. Foregoing the additional revenue those publishers' products could be bringing us today if we schlepped them in, because we want to be sure we treat them as we would want to be treated, is professional. IMO.

*
What exactly do you mean by 'properly service'? What services do you offer publishers beyond a check and webspace?
*

See above

*
Couldn't you save everyone much work by removing the questionable and unpopular DRM restrictions?
*

Why do you care so much that we chose DRM? Why is this any skin off your back? If you think it's a bad idea that will lead to our failure (which it isn't and won't) then rejoice that we shall fail just as you want us to (for whatever reason) and rejoice that RPGNow's sales are up (oh wait that might be because the electronic format for rpgs is getting introduced to more people now, no, no, you're right, it's 100% due to the DRM backlash).

*
You don't need to answer the questions of a lowly 'unprofessional' dog, but your silence will speak volumes for me.
*

Yeah, yeah, whatever. Man oh man, did I kill your dog or your mother or something? I just don't get the needless rudeness and vehemence.

Steve


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## Brown Jenkin (Jun 10, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> SOME of your people are a real piece of work.
> You want to put words in my mouth, and condescend and insult, but should I dare respond with anything but perfect professional courtesy, whoa! hold on! I'm being elitist and insulting and whatever else.
> 
> Do you interact with people verbally this way in everyday life or do internet forums just release you to be needlessly rude. Yes I said rude, uh oh how unprofessional (pun intended) of me. The key word though was needlessly.
> ...




I'm not defending others on this board but yes, as a professional representing your professional company you are held to a higher standard. Whether you think you are justified in responding unprofessionaly to an attack no matter what it may be, by doing so publicly you are presenting the image that your company is not professional at all. I have worked retail and was always taught and expected to be professional with any customer, or mentaly unstable homeless person who wandered into the store for that matter, no matter what comes out of their mouth or how unreasonable or senseless it may be. Lashing back or behaving unprofessionaly in return only diswades those otherwise reasonable customers that might be watching your repsonse from wanting to stick around and do business with you.


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## Conaill (Jun 10, 2004)

Thanks for the info, Steve. Oh, and don't let it get to you, that's just the natiure of public forums. We'd like to think that EN World is a little more polite than other boards, but you're bound to get a certain fraction of hotheads in a discussion of this size anyway.

Just keep in mind that for every flamer, there's probably ten more people lurking, who _do_ want to hear what you have to say...


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## Aristotle (Jun 11, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I'm not defending others on this board but yes, as a professional representing your professional company you are held to a higher standard. Whether you think you are justified in responding unprofessionaly to an attack no matter what it may be, by doing so publicly you are presenting the image that your company is not professional at all.




True, but unless I'm mistaken some of the people throwing insults around are publishers (I don't know their products, but their signatures lead me to believe they produce PDFs), so your comments apply equally to them and as a their potential customer I hold them to the same high standard. I'm just one customer though, perhaps they didn't care to sell me anything in the first place.

*shrug*


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## 2WS-Steve (Jun 11, 2004)

I figure this update to the DTRPG website is worth mentioning:

Response to Common Concerns 



			
				DTRPG said:
			
		

> Can I put these books on more than one computer?
> 
> Yes. Absolutely. This is the most common misconception about these products. You may put these book on any computer you own. You do not need to download them more than once either. Simply copy them to the other computer and activate the Adobe DRM on the other computer using the same password.
> 
> ...




This makes me much more comfortable since they've now addressed two of my three major concerns--the limited computer registrations and a recognition that off-site printing is desired by a number of customers. Moreover, I like the fact that it's officially on the main website since that indicates DTRPG is willing to incur a legal obligation regarding these promises.

I'd still like to see at least some mention of what plans they have regarding making sure that I'll be able to register my purchases a couple years down the line--if nothing more than a simple "we're looking into that and will have a more detailed answer later".


******
On a side note, since I started this thread:

I understand that the companies and individuals associated are frustrated at some of the personal attacks leveled against them and want to respond.

However, I'm also a bit frustrated by the way it seems that the people who do throw invective and personal insults are the ones getting a response, while the other potential customers who just want to find out how, where, and how long they can use their purchases wait around. Again, though, the new page helps a lot.


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## BryonD (Jun 11, 2004)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> However, I'm also a bit frustrated by the way it seems that the people who do throw invective and personal insults are the ones getting a response, while the other potential customers who just want to find out how, where, and how long they can use their purchases wait around. Again, though, the new page helps a lot.




Well put.

And I think THAT is where the claims of dodging questions is coming from.
To me it seems the stuff that gives an excuse to go off about is being used as an excuse to skip the honest concerns.

And I just said this in another thread but....
I have clients that I sometimes think are real jerks.  I am ALWAYS polite to them.  I'd be a fool to be rude and expect to get another cent from them.


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## trancejeremy (Jun 11, 2004)

Well to be fair, if there is any "name-calling", DTRPG pretty much started it with their press release about being the first "professional" site selling RPGs. And every other company involved with it releasing a press release saying the same thing. (Which is especially inexcusable, because WW knew about RPGNow, having apparently tried to buy it. They just wanted to put them down, apparently)

Also, the thing about multiple computers disagrees with what Adobe says - they say there is a limit of 6. Which for some, wouldn't be enough to last a decade of computer upgrades. And of course, it's always subject to change.


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## Leopold (Jun 11, 2004)

_[Edited: try reading the rules on profanity, even "disguised" profanity]._


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## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 11, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Ok, let's see, so now I'm "avoiding answering" questions just because I haven't been glued to this thread the last 24 hours, lurking to answer Mad Kaiser's questions as soon as he posts them?




That has more to do with the fact that you appear to have simply tried ignoring Mad Kaiser's questions while responding to other posts.



> And Dana is definitively stating what DriveThruRPG's policies for publishers are even though she has no affiliation with DriveThru?




Actually, HE has only addressed a single DTRPG policy, because it is a policy mandated by the system requirements of the distribution method used by DTRPG (i.e. forced use of DRM). HE also addressed general service trends for outlets that use content server. At no point did he state that absolute policy for DTRPG, but rather a likelihood. 



> SOME of your people are a real piece of work.
> You want to put words in my mouth, and condescend and insult, but should I dare respond with anything but perfect professional courtesy, whoa! hold on! I'm being elitist and insulting and whatever else.




Sorry, Steve, but you've been insulting us from the first posts you made on behalf of DTRPG by assuming each and every one of us was a person who would listen to you in essence tell us "2+2=5", when we can look at all the facts you're trying to keep silent about and see for ourselves that indeed "2+2=4".



> Do you interact with people verbally this way in everyday life or do internet forums just release you to be needlessly rude. Yes I said rude, uh oh how unprofessional (pun intended) of me. The key word though was needlessly.




Hell, yeah. I have to deal with lazy slackers constantly, and often the threat of losing their jobs doesn't motivate the numb bastards even when you make examples of some of them. And asking nicely with them always falls on deaf ears. I throw things at them or draw on their faces when I catch them sleeping on the job, too.



> *
> Then why was your company trying to aquire RPGNow?
> Why did James turn you down?
> *
> ...




James gave us his side. To sum up, WW is sold on the myths and legends of Adobe's DRM and he wasn't willing to allow "his baby" to suffer such indignity.



> *
> If you can't handle more than 16 publishers at a time, what would you have done to the "additional publisher clients" already selling at RPGNow?
> 
> What makes pdf-only publishers so "service intensive" compaired to print-only?
> ...




Actually, all uploads and updates are simply uploaded to a plain old FTP server. They are manually checked before being manually moved to the web server at RPGnow. Very little of what you assume is automated on RPGnow really isn't. The paypal payments aren't automated, and while the check output may be partially automated, James still has to sign each and every one.

So all I can say is if James and his two or three other people can handle all that "manual labor" for over 200 vendors on a daily basis AND provide regular customer service WHILE running a full-time brick & mortar store on the side, you people at DTRPG are starting to look like a bunch of slackers.



> If you weren't so darn rude I might even answer this, but instead I'll just say "Why is that any of your business?". We made arrangements with publishers such that they and we are happy with the arrangement. End of story.




To pose the most probable answer, the exclusive agreements are to enforce the use of DRM. In the midst of their love affair with DRM, WW has placed absolute trust in it and simply cannot have insecure PDFs roaming the internet and threatening the revenue stream. But that's just an educated guess.




> *
> What exactly do you mean by 'properly service'? What services do you offer publishers beyond a check and webspace?
> *
> 
> See above




But above you made it pretty clear you don't know what proper services are, what with the assumptions on how RPGnow works.



> *
> Couldn't you save everyone much work by removing the questionable and unpopular DRM restrictions?
> *
> 
> Why do you care so much that we chose DRM? Why is this any skin off your back? If you think it's a bad idea that will lead to our failure (which it isn't and won't) then rejoice that we shall fail just as you want us to (for whatever reason) and rejoice that RPGNow's sales are up (oh wait that might be because the electronic format for rpgs is getting introduced to more people now, no, no, you're right, it's 100% due to the DRM backlash).




Actually, RPGnow's sales are up since June 6, by some 20%. The backlash has indeed paid off. Allow me to make a suggestion Steve. Give up on trying to defend DRM. It's a losing battle. From now on, just say "it came with Adobe Content Server. We can't do anything about it. Sorry".



> *
> You don't need to answer the questions of a lowly 'unprofessional' dog, but your silence will speak volumes for me.
> *
> 
> ...




Allow me to quote myself from earlier in this very post. 'you've been insulting us from the first posts you made on behalf of DTRPG by assuming each and every one of us was a person who would listen to you in essence tell us "2+2=5", when we can look at all the facts you're trying to keep silent about and see for ourselves that indeed "2+2=4".' 

You've already contradicted yourself twice between the vendors supposedly setting their own prices and the backpedal you've done about WW ownership of DTRPG. We have yet to see you acknowledge the problems of using DRM. And you apparently aren't making much effort to pay attention to what people are saying, since the picture you're trying to paint is not the same picture already painted by a combination of you and everyone who has had non-consumer dealings with DTRPG.

That is why we are all annoyed. And at this point, you've been contradicted so many times. You really need to start learning how to properly use the phrase "no comment" and its variants. If you had been using it from the beginning, you'd be in a much nicer place right now.

But then again, given that "All Professional" phrase in the corporate description appearing in numerous press releases, odds are, even if you didn't have all those problems above, we'd still be rude to you. After all, apologies are nothing but lip service when you make no effort to correct the problem, and the Eden press release was issued a day after your private apology to RPGnow over it. The rest of us slighted by it have yet to even hear a peep about being insulted like that. No public apology and no effort made to remove the phrase from further press releases.


----------



## The Sigil (Jun 11, 2004)

If I may, Steve, even though your post was directed elsewhere, I would like to pose MY answers to your questions.


			
				Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Why do you care so much that we chose DRM? Why is this any skin off your back?



As a publisher?  I don't care what you choose to do.  Not my business, not my concern.

But as a potential customer (who spends upwards of $100/month on PDFs), I happen to care a lot because of a combination of factors, though these don't matter to you.  What should matter to you is that I am a potential large and frequent PDF buyer who refuses on principle to have anything to do with DRM.  

I want to buy PDFs of the stuff you offer on your site.  I do not want to buy stuff with DRM.  The latter concern outweighs the former for me.  So I am stuck in a situation where I want to buy the product you are offering, but I am not willing to agree to the current terms you are offering.  As a customer, I am simply asking, "are you willing to negotiate terms?"  This is the "sticking point," so to speak, in our potential customer/vendor negotiations.  

As such, it makes me VERY interested as to why you chose DRM, because if a way can be found to "negotiate that out of the deal," we can both get what we want.  I get PDFs with no DRM, you get my money.  You still get full benefits of copyright protection and my solemn promise that I will not go slapping these things on CDs for my friends or uploading them to KaZaA or anything similar.

I want to know why you chose DRM so that I can know if there is room to negotiate or if we are at a fundamental philosophical impasse and therefore I should stop considering spending my money with you.  Any negotiation takes this form, does it not? You negotiate until you either find common ground and make a deal, or you find that there cannot be common ground and you cease negotiations entirely.  *At this point, I still have hope of finding common ground,* as I do not yet know there cannot be common ground - and *knowing why you chose DRM might be a good way of letting me know one way or the other.*

That's why I care.  And I would hope that the prospect of a steady $100/month would at least enough incentive to provide a reason to me as to why you're using DRM - i.e., that you would care enough about my reasons to ask me (I've already told you, but I'll repeat it here if you like).



> If you think it's a bad idea that will lead to our failure (which it isn't and won't)



As both a publisher and a potential customer, I disagree.  I think it is a bad idea.  As a publisher, it doesn't matter one way or the other to me.

As a customer... well, let's just say when I hear the above statement, well, it sours "negotiations" somewhat.  I have said, "this is a bad idea because of X, Y, and Z" (not here, but elsewhere).  I have laid out my concerns.  Your response, a curt "which it isn't" - without laying out responses to my concerns OR your reasons for doing it in the first place - is a bit insulting to a potential customer.  Again, though, since you weren't giving the curt "which it isn't" to my concerns directly, I'll forgive it for now.  Suffice to say I do think you owe potential customers the courtesy of listening to their concerns, responding to the concerns with something other than a shrug, and laying out your reasons.  

The only reason I have yet seen offered - it will inhibit piracy - has by and large been shown to be false as it relates to "hard core piracy" and P2P sharing (casual sharing is a different ball of wax).  Your potential customers (at least this one) are annoyed that they have responded to your reasons, giving arguments as to why they see these reasons as flimsy and poor, but you have not responded to THEIR concerns in any fashion other than ignoring them or dismissing them outright with no discussion.  Again, not good tactics for engendering goodwill in negotiations.



> then rejoice that we shall fail just as you want us to (for whatever reason)



As a customer, I want DRM to fail.  As a customer I don't want you to fail.  But I want DRM to fail more than I want you not to.  *My hope is that you give up DRM and I get both my desires... DRM fails and you don't.*  But if you have irrevocably cast your lot/made your bed/insert clever metaphor here with DRM, well, I hope you fail... not because I dislike you, but because I dislike DRM and do not want it to succeed.  Ever.  It's not you I dislike but "you + DRM" that makes me negative... in the same way that even though 2 is a positive integer, 2 and -5 together are not.  You are a +2.  DRM is a -5.  I want anything less than 0 to fail and greater than 0 to succeed. Please try to separate the two.

To sum up...

From the point of view as a potential customer, this has nothing to do with "you" and everything to do with "DRM."  As a customer, I like you.  I like your products.  As a customer, I hate DRM.  Because I hate DRM more than I like you, as long as you insist on bundling yourself and your products with DRM as a "take it or leave it" package, I am forced to hate the package as a whole.  

That doesn't mean "I hate you."  It's not about you.  It's *never* been about you.  It's all about DRM.

Why won't you let go of DRM so I can show you I like you? 

From my perspective as a consumer, there's only one reason I can think of for you not to abandon DRM... you're not currently technologically equipped to make electronic deliveries in a non-DRM fashion.  Your comment that the choice to use DRM isn't a mistake tells me there's more to it.  But I truly, honestly, can't figure out what.  

Seriously, please tell me, as a potential customer, why you aren't willing to consider letting go of DRM.  I simply do not understand your decision to do so.  Really.  I'm not being stubborn.  I *can't* figure it out (I have a lot less trouble accepting something I don't agree with if I can at least figure out the other person's logic as to why - provided they have different but not faulty premises from which they reach their conclusion, I can accept that).  It doesn't inhibit piracy in the slightest, so usign that is a faulty premise - and as I mentioned, I can't accept faulty premises.  It annoys your consumers, and it transfers some of the rights/protections normally reserved by law to me the customer to you the producer.  What are you getting out of this that makes it so important?  If we have different views, fine - we can stop harping on it - but your position currently seems irrational.  

*As a consumer, I want to be educated so even if I don't agree with your position, I can understand it.*  If you prefer, you can send me a private message through the boards; our conversation will be kept strictly confidential.

--The Sigil


----------



## PatrickLawinger (Jun 11, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I'm not defending others on this board but yes, as a professional representing your professional company you are held to a higher standard. Whether you think you are justified in responding unprofessionaly to an attack no matter what it may be, by doing so publicly you are presenting the image that your company is not professional at all. I have worked retail and was always taught and expected to be professional with any customer, or mentaly unstable homeless person who wandered into the store for that matter, no matter what comes out of their mouth or how unreasonable or senseless it may be. Lashing back or behaving unprofessionaly in return only diswades those otherwise reasonable customers that might be watching your repsonse from wanting to stick around and do business with you.




I see, so if a customer came into the store and started screaming "This guy just said all of you suck and are idiots for even thinking about buying things here!" you would smile sweetly and nod? I'd calmly call the police and have him hauled out.

People have been putting words in his mouth, and quite frankly been insulting as hell. The best part is, now everyone is wondering where the big publishers have gone and why they aren't answering.

Even better, many of the people being most insulting happen to be the "small publishers" so where is the professionalism there? Oh wait, then you have some of the forum mods posting their own opinions and fanning the flames rather than trying to calm people down and keep the discussions reasoned. Good thing the "big" publishers have their own forums to talk to fans on, because in this environment I haven't seen any posting here lately. I almost wonder if they'll come back.

The way posts here have been worded no matter what Steve said he would be flamed again. Either he answers a post on a message board and has someone then type a response saying "so you mean X" which is then taken by someone else and twisted further until Steve suddenly finds a post on another message board claiming he has said things he never came close to saying. Then again, he could NOT answer, and then get flamed for not answering and having people say "this must mean X" etc. No matter what he does, someone is going to flame him. Yeah, if it were me, I'd be pissed too. Mostly, I would be upset about the words being put in my mouth both here and at rpg.net.

Personally, I wouldn't have gone with DRM, but so what, I am not Steve, I am not running his business, and I don't know all of his reasons. Maybe, if I had the same info he did at the time I would have made the same decision he did. I am quite capable of disagreeing with someone's decision without flaming them for it. Steve happens to be a damn nice, very well-respected person. Frankly, I don't think anyone else could have convinced some of the publishers on his list to dip their toes into the "electronic waters" and for that alone I respect his efforts. If it took DRM to get those publishers on the list then it has served a good purpose for that alone.

I am not really a supporter of DRM, but I do support both DTRPG and RPGNow. I think it is past time for the classic print publishers to start preparing for the future and dealing with the "problems" and potentials created by electronic media and electronic distribution. I am glad someone has taken a bold enough step to entice people that I know have been VERY hesitant into the electronic markets. I have the greatest respect for Steve and what he is trying to do. 

I wonder how flame-filled this is going to be when I get back from vacation Sunday ...


----------



## BryonD (Jun 11, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> I see, so if a customer came into the store and started screaming "This guy just said all of you suck and are idiots for even thinking about buying things here!" you would smile sweetly and nod? I'd calmly call the police and have him hauled out.




That is fair.  (Except that posting on a board does have some notable differences against walking in to your place of business, but for arguements sake...)

Would you expect to ever get business from that guy again?


----------



## Morrus (Jun 11, 2004)

OK, folks, that's about enough of the rudeness and insults.  The behaviour in this (and other DRM threads) from various people, including some publishers, is unacceptable.  

Because there is still information that Steve can provide to those who ask, I'll be leaving the thread open for now.  So, in order to keep it polite, I'll just be handing out week-long bans to those who cross the line from now on.  

Some of you are repeat offenders and seem to cause ill-will wherever you go.  For those people (and you probably know who you are), the bans will be permanent.

Now, let's get back to the civil discussion at hand.


----------



## coyote6 (Jun 11, 2004)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> I would recomend making companies that try BS like this suffer.




I'd rather not; most of 'em make stuff I like, and most of 'em seem like decent enough people. I regret the DRM, for a number of reasons, and I hope they abandon it*; but that doesn't mean I want the companies to suffer any more than they already are.

*Perhaps when SJG has e23 ready, other companies will participate.


----------



## Psion (Jun 11, 2004)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Also, the thing about multiple computers disagrees with what Adobe says - they say there is a limit of 6. Which for some, wouldn't be enough to last a decade of computer upgrades. And of course, it's always subject to change.




Jeremy, I think they have pretty safely clarified that this was a default that they did not (to their credit) use.

This was my concern as well. Thank you Steve for clarifying this point. The "response" link should really be added to your FAQ, however.


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 11, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Ok, let's see, so now I'm "avoiding answering" questions just because I haven't been glued to this thread the last 24 hours, lurking to answer Mad Kaiser's questions as soon as he posts them?
> 
> SOME of your people are a real piece of work.
> You want to put words in my mouth, and condescend and insult, but should I dare respond with anything but perfect professional courtesy, whoa! hold on! I'm being elitist and insulting and whatever else.




All I did was ask questions. The victim routine won't work here.




> Do you interact with people verbally this way in everyday life or do internet forums just release you to be needlessly rude. Yes I said rude, uh oh how unprofessional (pun intended) of me. The key word though was needlessly.
> 
> Ever hear of the golden rule.




You show a place where I insulted you or put words in your mouth, and I will apologize.




> As I've said before we'll release publisher terms when we're ready to take on new publishers and provide them with excellent service.





The fact that your terms aren't available for review is a sign of collusion. Legal collusion, perhaps, but collusion.




> *
> Then why was your company trying to acquire RPGNow?
> Why did James turn you down?
> *
> ...




You use the same software, and you would need to start your own Paypal account. That's it.




> RPGNow has some nice custom programmed features that let publishers upload and update their own products. We have none of that yet. Manually loading up dozens of publishers products, contracting, setting up payable, etc. does take effort. And since I must be glued to forums right now so as not to be "avoiding" questions, we don't have time for it.





Uh, no? PDFs are uploaded to an FTP and added manually by Sage. Did you really not know that, or were you lying just there, thinking I was just another lowly fool unworthy of the truth? And once again, the victim ploy doesn't work here.




> If you weren't so darn rude I might even answer this, but instead I'll just say "Why is that any of your business?". We made arrangements with publishers such that they and we are happy with the arrangement. End of story.




Well pardon my horrible rudness for challenging your words in front of everyone, but you said you would love to "Debunk Misinformation". Don't volunteer to answer questions when you aren't willing to tell the truth.




> Inviting in 20 new publishers and then mishandling their products and presentations and not paying them properly is unprofessional. Foregoing the additional revenue those publishers' products could be bringing us today if we schlepped them in, because we want to be sure we treat them as we would want to be treated, is professional. IMO.
> 
> *
> What exactly do you mean by 'properly service'? What services do you offer publishers beyond a check and webspace?
> ...





You still haven't answered these questions. A SINGLE HUMAN WITH A PAYPAL ACCOUNT MASS-MAILS ONCE PER MONTH. A SINGLE HUMAN BEING WITH AN INTERNET CONNECTION CAN SERVICE THE ENTIRE SITE. WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU MEAN BY 'PROPERLY SERVICE'? WHAT SERVICES DO YOU OFFER PUBLISHERS BEYOND A CHECK AND WEBSPACE THAT RPGNOW COULDN'T OFFER? WHAT MAKES PDF ONLY PUBLISHERS SO DIFFICULT TO WORK WITH THAT YOU MUST EXCLUDE THEM ONLY?



> *
> Couldn't you save everyone much work by removing the questionable and unpopular DRM restrictions?
> *
> 
> Why do you care so much that we chose DRM? Why is this any skin off your back?





Can everyone read this? "Why do you care so much". If this isn't absolute arrogance, I don't know what is. There have been literaly hundreds of people complaining about DRM, and your answer is "Why is this any skin off your back". Very professional.




> If you think it's a bad idea that will lead to our failure (which it isn't and won't) then rejoice that we shall fail just as you want us to (for whatever reason) and rejoice that RPGNow's sales are up (oh wait that might be because the electronic format for rpgs is getting introduced to more people now, no, no, you're right, it's 100% due to the DRM backlash).





You honestly believe this is all personal attacks against you? You think I want there to be hundreds of disillusioned PDF buyers thinking that all PDFs suck because of your DRM garbage? You think I rejoice when others fail? You honestly believe your site has improved RPGNow sales?

You have belittled independent pdf publishers, stolen publishers from RPGNow with exclusive contracts when you couldn't buy them, lied about STRPG's connection with White Wolf, and now _you_ are the victim of venom, when all we demand is just one straight answer? When DTRPG fails, it will not be DRM's fault, it will be your fault. People have bought more books from RPGNow thanks to _loyalty_ and _solidarity_, two of many qualities you obviously lack. The fact that you see every deconstruction of your facades as personal attacks, and believe I would rejoice when your site fails, shows me you also lack empathy, but have ego to spare.

I apologize to the administrators if any of this seems rude or heavy-handed, but this is my pure frustration in text-form. I have attempted to gain answers, and instead recieved obvious avoidance followed by haughty snarls. I know this may be difficult for laymen to empathize with, but as an "Unprofessional Publisher", these attacks, half-truths and elisions have been slap after slap in the face.

Once again, with virtual hat in hand, please forgive any percieved rudeness.

[edited for possible overly-rude content]


----------



## Henry (Jun 11, 2004)

Both Morrus and the mods have laid down the rules, and still people aren't following them. I've just suspended one user for a week. If personal insults and character attacks keep happening, whoever makes them wil also be suspended for a week.

I hate doing it. I honest to GOD, hate doing it. But if people can't be civil, then I have no choice.

Thanks, all. And good night.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Jun 11, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> I see, so if a customer came into the store and started screaming "This guy just said all of you suck and are idiots for even thinking about buying things here!" you would smile sweetly and nod? I'd calmly call the police and have him hauled out.




See we actually agree here. I would act calmly and try to understand why he thinks we suck and whether this is a valid complaint. If the response is "Because you are controled by orbital mind control lasers" well then yes I would again calmly call the police if he won't leave. The reaction I wouldn't have is to scream back "No, you suck, and your mother dresses you funny." If there are other custmmers in the store and I behaived calmly they might even have sympathy for me. If I respond angrily in the same manner as the crazy person, then those customers in the store will likey back out slowly in order to avoid dealing with both of us.



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> People have been putting words in his mouth, and quite frankly been insulting as hell. The best part is, now everyone is wondering where the big publishers have gone and why they aren't answering.




There is nothing wrong with correcting false statements. I have no idea where the Big publishers are but I won't assign any motivation to this.



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Even better, many of the people being most insulting happen to be the "small publishers" so where is the professionalism there? Oh wait, then you have some of the forum mods posting their own opinions and fanning the flames rather than trying to calm people down and keep the discussions reasoned. Good thing the "big" publishers have their own forums to talk to fans on, because in this environment I haven't seen any posting here lately. I almost wonder if they'll come back.




I'm sure they will be back eventually. Not everyone here has been insulting, and this remains a great place for all things d20. I have been to publisher forums, and if you want to reach a broad range of people beyond your existing fans, this is the place.



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> The way posts here have been worded no matter what Steve said he would be flamed again. Either he answers a post on a message board and has someone then type a response saying "so you mean X" which is then taken by someone else and twisted further until Steve suddenly finds a post on another message board claiming he has said things he never came close to saying. Then again, he could NOT answer, and then get flamed for not answering and having people say "this must mean X" etc. No matter what he does, someone is going to flame him. Yeah, if it were me, I'd be pissed too. Mostly, I would be upset about the words being put in my mouth both here and at rpg.net.




Yes Steve is in a dificult situation and he must make a choice about what is the best approach for his company.



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Personally, I wouldn't have gone with DRM, but so what, I am not Steve, I am not running his business, and I don't know all of his reasons. Maybe, if I had the same info he did at the time I would have made the same decision he did. I am quite capable of disagreeing with someone's decision without flaming them for it. Steve happens to be a damn nice, very well-respected person. Frankly, I don't think anyone else could have convinced some of the publishers on his list to dip their toes into the "electronic waters" and for that alone I respect his efforts. If it took DRM to get those publishers on the list then it has served a good purpose for that alone.




Many people agree that they would not have gone with DRM, and why Steve went with it is what they are trying to figure out. Some more articulately and calmly like the Sigal than others. As for "If it took DRM to get those publishers on the list then it has served a good purpose for that alone", it seems that this is one of the main points of disagreement between yourself and others here. I respect your opinion, but I am one of those who disagree with it (hopefuly calmly).



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> I am not really a supporter of DRM, but I do support both DTRPG and RPGNow. I think it is past time for the classic print publishers to start preparing for the future and dealing with the "problems" and potentials created by electronic media and electronic distribution.




I agree that it is time for other print publishers to get involved, and like many others I would be willing to support DTRPG if they got rid of DRM. Of course, one of the problems of electronic publishing that these publishers have to deal with is a rabid hatred many people feel towards DRM.



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> I am glad someone has taken a bold enough step to entice people that I know have been VERY hesitant into the electronic markets. I have the greatest respect for Steve and what he is trying to do.




I respect Steve for trying to get these people involved in electronic publishing, I disagree that using DRM to bring them in is worth it.



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> I wonder how flame-filled this is going to be when I get back from vacation Sunday ...




Hopefully with Morrus's warning it won't be flame filled at all. I will personaly miss your presence in this conversation. Have a good vacation.


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 11, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> trancejeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually, Steve is incorrect and the Adobe FAQ is right. There is a limit of 6 devices if you use Adobe ID. Your purchases are tied into the Adobe ID, which Adobe controls, not DTRPG. Also, the computers you use are registered to this same Adobe ID. Adobe only allows 6 devices, be they desktops, laptops, or PDAs, to be registered to your Adobe ID. DTRPG has no control over this. The file flag which Steve refers to only determines if the PDF can only be used on one of the six devices (the one originally downloading it) or all of them.

The only way to circumvent this is through a system call SuperDistribution, which appears is only available as part of Adobe's own online bookstore. This system allows one user to transfer control of a PDF to another registered user. Once permission is granted, the new user would effectively then be the owner of the PDF, rather like giving away a book or loaning it out. So technically, one person could have multiple Adobe IDs and simply SuperDistribute a file between them.

Upon further review, the use of MS Passport will probably have the same results, since it is simple used to generate an account on Adobe's site for DRM registration purposes, essentially deliverying you into the same device restricted system as the Adobe ID does. 

Incidentally, this is the same DRM control model Adobe has been using for the last 3 years.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 11, 2004)

After reading most of this thread, if I had to make decisions on what RPG products I will buy based on judging the politeness and professionalism of companies reps on this thread,

I'll buy PDF's from DriveThru . . .

I won't buy much of anything from Mad Kaiser or any Big Bang products . . .

Oh, I DO make decisions based on the professionalism of company reps.  Steve, one more customer for DriveThru . . . Dana and Kaiser, one less for you.


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 11, 2004)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> After reading most of this thread, if I had to make decisions on what RPG products I will buy based on judging the politeness and professionalism of companies reps on this thread,
> 
> I'll buy PDF's from DriveThru . . .
> 
> ...




Might I suggest you also start using a company rep's dishonesty or ignorance as well? After all, the DTRPG rep is strongly exhibited being on or the other when it comes to DRM.


----------



## Steve Wieck (Jun 11, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Actually, HE has only addressed a single DTRPG policy, because it is a policy mandated by the system requirements of the distribution method used by DTRPG (i.e. forced use of DRM). HE also addressed general service trends for outlets that use content server. At no point did he state that absolute policy for DTRPG, but rather a likelihood.




Dana - apologies for incorrectly guessing your sex.
Going back to your earlier post (quoted below), I don't see any mention of "probably" or "likelihood" or "I would think" just an unequivocal "yes"...



			
				Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Do the DTRPG vendors have to use DRM?
> 
> The answer is yes. Adobe Content Server is the delivery method DTRPG uses to provide the files to the consumer. Adobe Content Server requires the use of Acrobat 6 and DRM.





So I believe you were out of line, yes since you are in no position to announce policies of DriveThruRPG.com and by making such statements you foster inaccurate information.

Besides, as you well know, since we use the same OSCommerce pacakage as RPGNow, we must be able to deliver normal pdfs or any other type of file type.

*
Sorry, Steve, but you've been insulting us from the first posts you made on behalf of DTRPG by assuming each and every one of us was a person who would listen to you in essence tell us "2+2=5", when we can look at all the facts you're trying to keep silent about and see for ourselves that indeed "2+2=4".
*

What facts have I been trying to keep silent about?

*
James gave us his side. To sum up, WW is sold on the myths and legends of Adobe's DRM and he wasn't willing to allow "his baby" to suffer such indignity.
*

Either James is misremembering the events or you are misinterpreting/misquoting him. James had no idea we were intending to use Adobe Secure Content Server when we spoke about RPGNow back in January of this year.

*
But above you made it pretty clear you don't know what proper services are, what with the assumptions on how RPGnow works.
*

So you're saying RPGNow doesn't have tools that allow publishers to enter or modify their own prices and title catalog pages?
And you're aware of what my job entails beyond DriveThruRPG.com and the jobs of everyone else involved? You magically know how we spend our days and whether we really have time to service new publishers as opposed to say making sure the site we just launched is running as fast as possible?




*
You've already contradicted yourself twice between the vendors supposedly setting their own prices and the backpedal you've done about WW ownership of DTRPG.
*

Please point out (meaning quote my posts) either contradiction because I am completely unaware of where I have been anything but honest about either one.

Ok, it's out of my system now. Have a good life Dana.

Steve


----------



## Steve Wieck (Jun 11, 2004)

*Apologies*

Folks,

My apologies for being out of line in the earlier post (and by earlier post I mean the one answering Mad Kaiser's questions) and by that let me clarify.
Having not been a user of EN World Forums before I mistakenly thought this d20 & Open Gaming Publishers forum was for publishers only (just like the ePublishign forum seems to be?), not one for readers and publishers.
In a publishers-only forum I don't mind giving as good as I'm getting and telling other publishers to mind their own business. In an open forum it's not exactly appropriate, and we at White Wolf always want to be known for our 100% political correct and polite decorum....

Steve


----------



## Psion (Jun 11, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Actually, Steve is incorrect and the Adobe FAQ is right. There is a limit of 6 devices if you use Adobe ID. Your purchases are tied into the Adobe ID, which Adobe controls, not DTRPG. Also, the computers you use are registered to this same Adobe ID. Adobe only allows 6 devices, be they desktops, laptops, or PDAs, to be registered to your Adobe ID. DTRPG has no control over this. The file flag which Steve refers to only determines if the PDF can only be used on one of the six devices (the one originally downloading it) or all of them.
> 
> The only way to circumvent this is through a system call SuperDistribution, which appears is only available as part of Adobe's own online bookstore. This system allows one user to transfer control of a PDF to another registered user. Once permission is granted, the new user would effectively then be the owner of the PDF, rather like giving away a book or loaning it out. So technically, one person could have multiple Adobe IDs and simply SuperDistribute a file between them.
> 
> ...




Interesting.

Steve: Confirm? Deny?

If this is true, it would not look good for your ability to correctly inform the would-be consumers.

Does anyone out there with access to 7 devices want to TEST this? I am tired of claims on either side; the truth is elusive.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 11, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Might I suggest you also start using a company rep's dishonesty or ignorance as well? After all, the DTRPG rep is strongly exhibited being on or the other when it comes to DRM.




Dana, you have consistently and unapologetically misrepresented DriveThruRPG EXACTLY as Steve has charged.

I have seen ZERO evidence that Steve has lied or misrepresented in anyway.

But, as I mostly lurk and already tire of this discussion I've taken so little part in, as Steve said, "Have a nice life Dana" . . . I'll just add, "With one less customer"


----------



## Steve Wieck (Jun 11, 2004)

*Drm*



			
				The Sigil said:
			
		

> If I may, Steve, even though your post was directed elsewhere, I would like to pose MY answers to your questions.
> 
> As a publisher?  I don't care what you choose to do.  Not my business, not my concern.
> 
> But as a potential customer (who spends upwards of $100/month on PDFs), I happen to care a lot because of a combination of factors, though these don't matter to you.  What should matter to you is that I am a potential large and frequent PDF buyer who refuses on principle to have anything to do with DRM.




Sigil thanks for your posts here and on rpgnet. If only I had a dollar just for each of your DRM posts trying help us see the light I probably wouldn't need your purchase dollars   

Ultimately there are a lot of companies involved who would never have considered going digital delivery if file security measures were not involved. In time I am only certain that things will continue to change. Some publishers will want more or less or no security measures/restrictions on their e-Book titles. Fan response and market economy and individual publisher strategy will determine how and when those changes happen.

Steve


----------



## Steve Wieck (Jun 11, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> Steve: Confirm? Deny?
> 
> ...




We will double-triple verify that the "unlimited" setting used for encryption is actually "unlimited" and let everyone know.

Steve


----------



## Shoon (Jun 11, 2004)

This is something that really needs to be said.

If I were the host of RPG Now, I'd ban Mad Kaiser Games from the site.

Mad Kaiser, you're one of the rudest publishers I've ever seen. You really deserve the label "unprofessional"; and it indeed fits that, in your profile, you've defined Mad Kaiser as "one of the unprofessionals".

I'm not big on DRM, and I enjoy RPG.Now, but, as a company, I'd really not like to be in the same site as the one you're in.

I could say you just lost a costumer, but with such worthy titles as "Shok and Awe", I'm not sure if you've ever had a costumer in me to begin with.


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## Brown Jenkin (Jun 11, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> So I believe you [Dana] were out of line, yes since you are in no position to announce policies of DriveThruRPG.com and by making such statements you foster inaccurate information.
> 
> Besides, as you well know, since we use the same OSCommerce pacakage as RPGNow, we must be able to deliver normal pdfs or any other type of file type.




So if I am understanding this correctly you do then have the means to deliver non-DRM PDFs. So if any of your publisher-clients decide to sell non-DRM PDFs they would be able to? Please confirm or deny this as I'm sure many fans over at Monte Cook's board would be interested in knowing that they could ask him to make this change. Right now it is assumed by most that this is not an option that any of your clients have.


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## Sledge (Jun 11, 2004)

Steve here does not seem to be intentionally trying to mislead, but I must agree that some of his posts have seemed to contradict each other.  This is a "new" site, and they can legitimately claim to not be ready for more than X publishers because they don't yet know what they were doing.  I think the question people would really like answered is did the companies that supposedly signed on for the DRM security do so given an impression by DTRPG representatives that DRM is actual secure and would limit piracy?  Given that DRM is not secure I am very interested to hear if there was a belief that it was.  Also since several publishers have stated the DRM was not their reason for joining and because Steve posted:


> Besides, as you well know, since we use the same OSCommerce pacakage as RPGNow, we must be able to deliver normal pdfs or any other type of file type.



Why is everyone being forced to use DRM?  Will this change?  Since 3 or 4 publishers have mentioned that DRM was not the reason for them (at least one seems to think that DRM is the only type of pdf format out there) how many publishers insisted on the DRM broken security?


----------



## Dana_Jorgensen (Jun 11, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> So I believe you were out of line, yes since you are in no position to announce policies of DriveThruRPG.com and by making such statements you foster inaccurate information.
> 
> Besides, as you well know, since we use the same OSCommerce pacakage as RPGNow, we must be able to deliver normal pdfs or any other type of file type.




Thus far, all evidence indicates you have forced every vendor to use DRM. This signifies that you are using Adobe Content Server exclusively, and therefore all PDF products must be DRM enabled.



> *
> Sorry, Steve, but you've been insulting us from the first posts you made on behalf of DTRPG by assuming each and every one of us was a person who would listen to you in essence tell us "2+2=5", when we can look at all the facts you're trying to keep silent about and see for ourselves that indeed "2+2=4".
> *
> 
> What facts have I been trying to keep silent about?




White Wolf's involvement with the company for one. Why vendors are forced to use DRM for another. Why both your company and its vendors seem to be painfully unaware of the fact that DRM doesn't work in the first place. 



> *
> James gave us his side. To sum up, WW is sold on the myths and legends of Adobe's DRM and he wasn't willing to allow "his baby" to suffer such indignity.
> *
> 
> Either James is misremembering the events or you are misinterpreting/misquoting him. James had no idea we were intending to use Adobe Secure Content Server when we spoke about RPGNow back in January of this year.




And proof that James is wrong is? And just because you didn't mention it to him does not mean no one else did. Oh, by the way, thank you for confirming that you've had every intention of using Content Server for more than six months. You've just validated my statement about all DTRPG vendors being forced to use DRM.



> *
> But above you made it pretty clear you don't know what proper services are, what with the assumptions on how RPGnow works.
> *
> 
> ...




See, you're just proving my point. Anyone with knowledge into web-based administration systems knows that most of those "tools" can be built by a competent 1st year comp-sci student in under an hour each. Anybody who did their research about the system ahead of time would know this, too. And they aren't tools, they are necessities. And I know that Adobe Content Server is supposed to come complete with a set of similar tools. You can't fault anyone but yourself for not putting them to better use.

As for your job, I can make educated guesses, I've been involved in publishing on and off, inside and outside the RPG industry since 1985 and involved with internet business since 1994 and e-commerce since 1998.

Unless DTRPG is a company with only a single employee, there's really no excuse that cuts it. As I said, RPGnow handles all its online business and runs a real store with a crew of three. Getting your site running as fast as possible is the responsibility of only one person, your system administrator. It should be his responsibility alone to handle everything, including the decision to order more bandwidth if necessary. 



> *
> You've already contradicted yourself twice between the vendors supposedly setting their own prices and the backpedal you've done about WW ownership of DTRPG.
> *
> 
> Please point out (meaning quote my posts) either contradiction because I am completely unaware of where I have been anything but honest about either one.




 Okay:
1.) http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1584192#post1584192

You specifically say that White Wolf does not own DTRPG.

2.) http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1590444#post1590444

You say you cannot comment on the ownership of either company.

There's one example of contradicting yourself.

Now, for the other...
 1.) http://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/ForumResponse.htm

Clearly says the vendors choose their pricing structures.

2.) while I can't find the specific post ATM thanks to the merging of too many threads at the hands of one of the moderators (sorry, but when a half dozen threads with a few pages each becomes a single thread with 20+ pages, I lack the patience to sift through them all with enworld's search-unfriendly color scheme), there is a post on these very forums that states that Necromancer Games has nothing to do with the PDF business other than handing files over to DTRPG and accepting the checks when they come. The post did specifically state that they allowed DTRPG to decide the pricing for them, which contradicts your little response FAQ

I'd like to conclude that once again, you completely ignore the subject the phrase "completely professional gaming e-Book site". How about telling us why you bothered only apologizing for the "professional" remark to one individual in private, rather than publicly to everyone, or why that phrase continues to appear in press releases released AFTER that apology, continuing the insult to over 200 different companies?


----------



## Beale Knight (Jun 11, 2004)

rpghost said:
			
		

> James
> RPGNow.com (*The Unprofessionals*)




heheheh. I haven't been reading every post on these threads but I'm glad I caught this. So far my small time operation has netted a few hundred bucks and sold past the hundred mark on one of my products, all by way of RPGNow. 

Small time operations and limited production resources does not mean unprofessional. 

Wes (one more unprofessional, I suppose)


----------



## Dinkeldog (Jun 11, 2004)

Okay, gang, that's two.  Knock off the insults.  Keep things civil.  Learn how to disagree politely.  If there are any questions, see Morrus' comments on p. 8.


----------



## Cergorach (Jun 11, 2004)

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Thus far, all evidence indicates you have forced every vendor to use DRM. This signifies that you are using Adobe Content Server exclusively, and therefore all PDF products must be DRM enabled.



I think it should say "All speculation indicates..."
Just because they use Adobe Content Server doesn't mean that the DTRPG webshop isn't able to handle regular files, it would suprise me greatly if it didn't.



> White Wolf's involvement with the company for one. Why vendors are forced to use DRM for another. Why both your company and its vendors seem to be painfully unaware of the fact that DRM doesn't work in the first place.



You do understand that someone can own two different companies and that neither company owns the other? It is possible that one company owns the other, but sometimes it's legally better to own two seperate companies. It's possible (and very likely) that the owner would use his influence in both companies to make both perform better.

We don't know that Vendors are being forced to do anything, S P E C U L A T I ON...

We know that copy protection on DVDs doesn't work, but that's still not stopping any DVD manufacturer to include the 'protection'.



> And proof that James is wrong is? And just because you didn't mention it to him does not mean no one else did. Oh, by the way, thank you for confirming that you've had every intention of using Content Server for more than six months. You've just validated my statement about all DTRPG vendors being forced to use DRM.



So what if they intended to use ACS, that doesn't mean they forced anyone to use Adobe DRM. Your reasoning abilities need... an upgrade.



> See, you're just proving my point. Anyone with knowledge into web-based administration systems knows that most of those "tools" can be built by a competent 1st year comp-sci student in under an hour each.



Yeah, they probably could, but it would be a buggy mess, that wouldn't work very well together. You stick with your frontpage skilzz, let the professionals handle programming... *grins evily*



> As for your job, I can make educated guesses, I've been involved in publishing on and off, inside and outside the RPG industry since 1985 and involved with internet business since 1994 and e-commerce since 1998.



That would explain the .com bubble bursting...



> You specifically say that White Wolf does not own DTRPG.
> 
> You say you cannot comment on the ownership of either company.
> 
> There's one example of contradicting yourself.



I believe he said:


> While I cannot comment on the complete ownership of the companies, I have already stated that I'm involved with both, so I thought I already put that to rest?



That means that WW doesn't own it, but that he isn't allowed to say who does exactly.

That's something else then your making it out to be.



> Now, for the other...
> 1.)Clearly says the vendors choose their pricing structures.
> 
> 2.) while I can't find the specific post ATM thanks to the merging of too many threads at the hands of one of the moderators (sorry, but when a half dozen threads with a few pages each becomes a single thread with 20+ pages, I lack the patience to sift through them all with enworld's search-unfriendly color scheme), there is a post on these very forums that states that Necromancer Games has nothing to do with the PDF business other than handing files over to DTRPG and accepting the checks when they come. The post did specifically state that they allowed DTRPG to decide the pricing for them, which contradicts your little response FAQ



Then the vendor still chooses their own pricing structure, they _choose_ the DTRPG pricing structure. But i think that Necromancer Games were a bit more specific than that, i think that they specifically asked to make the electronic products not compete with their print books.



> I'd like to conclude that once again, you completely ignore the subject the phrase "completely professional gaming e-Book site". How about telling us why you bothered only apologizing for the "professional" remark to one individual in private, rather than publicly to everyone, or why that phrase continues to appear in press releases released AFTER that apology, continuing the insult to over 200 different companies?



If i say that your an XXXX or a YYYY, would an appology be neccessary to the whole ENworld community or just you? The professional _site_ remark affected RPGnow directly, not it's customers or users.

It was also explained why the line was still being used in a press release by Eden.

If you want to find something at fault, you don't have to search far, people are imperfect beings, some more then others. I just wished some of those _some more_ would shut up for once... *grins evily*


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 11, 2004)

Sledge said:
			
		

> (at least one seems to think that DRM is the only type of pdf format out there)




Who was this, out of curiosity?


----------



## Morrus (Jun 11, 2004)

OK, folks.  Since my last warning in this thread, three bans have been handed out.  We'll be watching this thread and others very closely from now on.

Please see my announcement at the top of this forum.


----------



## Cergorach At Work (Jun 11, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> OK, folks.  Since my last warning in this thread, three bans have been handed out.  We'll be watching this thread and others very closely from now on.
> 
> Please see my announcement at the top of this forum.



Well one of these seems to be moi...
Now, if i had actually seen your post in this thread, i wouldn't have replied to danna at all or any of these threads in fact (i've had enough of all this stuff to tell the truth, but danna's arrogant behavior just begged for a response). Generally when someone posts out of line the message is edited, a warning is sent to the offender, after ignoring the warning someone might be banned, that was how it was in the past. Now, because i did not read your message before i had the time to edit my own, i'm banned for a _week_ or maybe longer.

I'm guessing Danna is also banned. It would have been nice if the offending message was deleted, that way i wouldn't have replied to it and wouldn't have been banned as well.

I'm not particularry pissed about getting banned, but it would have been nice if the way warnings are dealt out was a bit more consistantly. Last time i got a warning (yeah i've been bad before ;-) i appologized to piratecat and left the 'discussion' to cool off.

I'm not trying to whine, but i'm left with the feeling like someone who just missed an important memo and to late realized that someone just issued a warning...


----------



## Dinkeldog (Jun 11, 2004)

Cergorach, you know the proper way to contest Moderator decisions.  You have e-mail from me.


----------



## dsfriii (Jun 11, 2004)

*Thank You...*

I am happy the Mods have taken this stance.  I think it is an important topic that needs to be discussed, but I think it has gotten way to heated.


----------



## The Sigil (Jun 11, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Ultimately there are a lot of companies involved who would never have considered going digital delivery if file security measures were not involved.



*nods*

Frankly, that's what I expected.  I understand why, too ("we don't want to just hand out our stuff so it will be floating around on P2P networks").  The conclusion ("DRM will keep it from floating around on P2P networks") is flawed, of course, but since I'm pretty sure most of those who signed on didn't know how easy DRM is to crack, I see where they came to that conclusion.



> In time I am only certain that things will continue to change. Some publishers will want more or less or no security measures/restrictions on their e-Book titles.




Hopefully, if nothing else, after they peel off the asbestos suits they'd need to withstand the flaming directed at them over the last couple of days, they'll keep that little nugget of knowledge - that "DRM will keep it off P2P" is not correct and will adjust their stands accordingly.  

Of course, I have to hope they DON'T adjust their stand to "well, no e-product at all is better than this" - because then I won't have a shot at getting access to their excellent stuff in electronic form.  In the meantime, your answers hint that potential customer/vendor "negotiations" (I use that term with quotes as there's nobody in a room sitting down and hammering out negotiations - rather, it's kind of a large scale, free-market response method of negotiating comingled with some chat on internet boards) continue.



> Fan response and market economy and individual publisher strategy will determine how and when those changes happen.



So negotations continue.  That's what I had hoped for.  I've not reached the "buy" point in the negotiations, but the fact that change is still on the table keeps me hopeful. 

Thanks for a courteous response, Steve. 

--The Sigil


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## Psion (Jun 11, 2004)

Okay all,

Trying to hit all the threads in which this was brought up.

Regarding the "6 machine limit"

DTRPG has updated their "response to misconceptions" link confirming that there is, in fact, a 6 machine limit, contrary to what Steve Wieck had posted. There is some provision to reset machines through Adobe customer service:



> Note that you can only have 6 computers activated at any one time; however, the following is from Adobe Support: "If you have reformatted your hard drive or you have a new computer, you can call Customer Service at 800-272-3623 to get your activation reset. Press 1 for sales." We have used this number to reset activations with no difficulty.


----------



## Orcus (Jun 12, 2004)

Wow, I get busy at work and dont spend my normal time here this week and see what I miss...

I can clear up a few things, if you want me to:

1. I wasnt coerced or in any way influenced to join DRPG.
2. I dont get special terms or special contracts just cause I'm with SSS.
3. I'm not trying to put RPGNow out of business.
4. I havent had DRM shoved down my throat and forced on me.
5. Exclusivity wasnt forced on me. I could have just said no to being a part of the deal. 
6. I allowed DRPG to set the price of the two books that are currently up there. I chose to allow them to do that. I didnt take input in my pricing decisions. Not to say I cant or wont, just that so far I havent. I have not given up control over the pricing of my books to DRPG, despite the suggestion of some who have said I have no control over pricing which is not true.
7. I dont consider our fans to be the enemy. Similarly, I dont in any way buy into the concept that adding security features means I am calling my customers thieves. I dont buy into that hyper-sensitive view of the world. I dont get mad when I go to the electronics store and have to pass through detectors on the way in and out. Or that my books and CDs have little electronic tag things in or on them that have to be deactivated. Or that they check my receipt at CostCo. I dont see that as them thinking "I" am a thief. I think they are trying to prevent others from thievery. To my mind, it takes a rather guilty mind to read any and all security measures as calling you a thief. Plus, I dont buy into the "it cant prevent cracking" argument. Of course it cant. Nothing can. But you cant tell me then that means that if I cant guarantee it 100% that I should then take NO steps at all. 
8. I am trying to ADD a service and meet needs of people who otherwise do not have access to Necro books, such as people overseas or in countries that have onerous duties on books. It does seem somewhat strange that people are getting heat for ADDING a service and had they simply done nothing and not met a need for some fans (sure, not all), they would be getting NO flack.
9. I never was a "for sale pdf" company. I didnt have product listed for sale at RPGNow, despite some who have suggested I did.

The suggestion that DRPG has some control over these companies is just not true. I understand why people might think that, but all the same it isnt true.

There sure seems to be a whole lot of mis-information about DRPG and its intent out there. I understand that many people have issues with DRM and fully respect that. But some seem to be taking thier dislike of DRM to a whole new personal level reagarding DRPG and that is sad. I was sorry to come here and read that sort of stuff. Particularly here, a set of boards that are IMHO far more civil than other similar boards (they know who they are). 

I should point out that just about every post by Dana that I have read has been little more than conjecture and innuendo and factually incorrect. For example, in this thread her/his? post about pricing and vendors being greedy is full of erroneous assumptions. I'll be happy to explain more. For us, I am a print publisher. Not to be elitist, that is just my business model. I dotn want to price pdfs to take away print sales or upset distributors (by the way, I heard someone say Monte didnt find this was happening; my response is I'm not Monte, his clout to get a book carried by distributors is far beyond what mine will ever be; my word of advice: dont judge anything in the industry as a norm by how Monte does things; he is the Gygax of 3E). New books will only have a slight discount. Old stuff will have a significant discout. That is what matches and compliments my business model. If you dont want the pdf, please by all means buy the printed product. I sure dont want to be stuck with a warehouse of printed books because I priced my print products out with too good a price on the PDFs. This is most certainly not greed. It is maintaining a successful business model.

If anyone has questions about things, I am happy to answer them to the best of my ability.

Clark


----------



## Flyspeck23 (Jun 12, 2004)

Thanks for sharing your POV.

One comment, though:



			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> To my mind, it takes a rather guilty mind to read any and all security measures as calling you a thief.



While some of the DRM bashers out there indeed seem to have a problem with "any and all security measures", the main point about the DRM is this: it might lure publishers into a false sense of security (but that's their problem, right?), while at the same time it might (and already has) cause problems and inconvenience for the customers.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 12, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> 7. I dont consider our fans to be the enemy. Similarly, I dont in any way buy into the concept that adding security features means I am calling my customers thieves. I dont buy into that hyper-sensitive view of the world.




With respect, whether _you_ buy into it or not isn't really relevant, as in this context you are a publisher, not a consumer of goods.  You aren't the one who is having rights you are accustomed to curtailed.

I'll note that every one of your examples fails to be solidly analogous, in that the gates, tags and other shoplifting measures in no way change how you may use your products when you get them home.  You don't have to show a receipt every time you wear a shirt you've bought, and you aren't restricted to only getting dressed in a particular room in your house to make it easier for the store to double check that it isn't a stolen shirt, are you?

It is very simple, really.  The consumers have gotten used to having certain rights with pdf products.  DRM effectively curtails some of those rights.  Take a person's rights away, they are going to get upset.  

Now, if you could sell this as "for the common good", you might be okay.  Folks could understand that.  But with DRM so easy to break, that's a pretty hard sell.  The only way it stops casual theft is through user ignorance.

Here's a question for you, and other pdf publishers - how many of your sales come from folks who read message boards where this is being discussed?  Becasue by now, most of EN World probably knows that DRM is easy to crack.  It will no longer stop them from casually stealing your work.  If most of your customers are folks who have learned this fact, the DRM has been rendered pretty much useless.  At that point, dropping it would be a public relations coup....


----------



## maddman75 (Jun 12, 2004)

I agree completely Umbran.  The DRM is not at all analogous to the little security tags in the store.  The security tags do not interfere with the functioning of whatever product.  Indeed, they are often removed or rendered inert when you leave the store.

The problem is not something to protects your work.  The problem is with this intrusive, unreliable, and downright insulting DRM scheme.


----------



## PJ-Mason (Jun 12, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> Wow, I get busy at work and dont spend my normal time here this week and see what I miss...
> 
> I can clear up a few things, if you want me to:
> 
> ...




Well first of all, thanks for jumping into the fire Clark 
Also thanks for not starting out with "vitriol" laced salvo at the fans of ENWorld, most of who are reacting more calmly (but with no less seriousness) to what is going on.

As for prices, i can live with those. I have all my life. Thats standard consumer practice, i'll buy the product if i think its worth the price being asked. Thats goes for any product, PDF or print. Not a problem really.
In concern for those guys that can't get a print copy for whatever reason, they probably plan to download and print it so they can actually have it on hand. It can cost quite a bit to print these out. Added to the cost of downloading a PDF (if its not discounted enough), these poor people are going to pay a lot more than any of us do just to get a lesser quality version of the book we have. I feel sorry for them. 



			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> 7. I dont consider our fans to be the enemy. Similarly, I dont in any way buy into the concept that adding security features means I am calling my customers thieves. I dont buy into that hyper-sensitive view of the world. I dont get mad when I go to the electronics store and have to pass through detectors on the way in and out. Or that my books and CDs have little electronic tag things in or on them that have to be deactivated. Or that they check my receipt at CostCo. I dont see that as them thinking "I" am a thief. I think they are trying to prevent others from thievery. To my mind, it takes a rather guilty mind to read any and all security measures as calling you a thief. Plus, I dont buy into the "it cant prevent cracking" argument. Of course it cant. Nothing can. But you cant tell me then that means that if I cant guarantee it 100% that I should then take NO steps at all.




I don't think you went far enough with that analogy about buying books or CD's at a store. There, once you buy the item, the tag comes off. With DRM, that tags stays on the product when you go home. If you want to go somewhere with that book or CD (take a trip or whatever), you have to call up one or more companies to get a deactivation code to do it. And only then if you've upgraded to their lateset cell-phone plan. Some would even have to quit their current phone companies (such Linux, etc) to even be able to make those calls to use the product they just bought from you. Or to even buy it in the first place. Would you buy a book or CD like that? I sure wouldn't. 




			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> The suggestion that DRPG has some control over these companies is just not true. I understand why people might think that, but all the same it isnt true.
> 
> There sure seems to be a whole lot of mis-information about DRPG and its intent out there. I understand that many people have issues with DRM and fully respect that. But some seem to be taking thier dislike of DRM to a whole new personal level reagarding DRPG and that is sad. I was sorry to come here and read that sort of stuff. Particularly here, a set of boards that are IMHO far more civil than other similar boards (they know who they are).




I think their has been a lot of mis-information on the parts of customers AND DriveThru vendors, purposefully or not. I really don't see your company as bad guys, i've spent a lot of time lately on your company's forums to know your a pretty decent guy. My "boycott" of companies isn't absolute, its just for the people who i don't think are doing this just to provide an extra service to its fans. Personally, i don't know about a lot of the other companies involved, but i have had bad customer relations with at least one of the others, so i'm not going to automatically trust them as i do you.

Anyway, thanks for the back and forth. I appreciate it.


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 12, 2004)

I'd also like to thank Orcus for comming and talking much more rationaly than some publishers have.



			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> 4. I havent had DRM shoved down my throat and forced on me.




Just answer me one simple question with this.

If you called up DTRPG right this minute and said, "Take the DRM off our products, but keep selling them.", would they?

This is a major issue that some people have. Some sources seem to indicate that the DRM was part-and-parcel of the deal of signing on to DTRPG. Indeed, some of the publishers seem to indicate this too (Saying that they turn their product over to DTRPG and after that its out of their hands... other say just the opposite).



			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> 7. I dont consider our fans to be the enemy. Similarly, I dont in any way buy into the concept that adding security features means I am calling my customers thieves. I dont buy into that hyper-sensitive view of the world. I dont get mad when I go to the electronics store and have to pass through detectors on the way in and out. Or that my books and CDs have little electronic tag things in or on them that have to be deactivated. Or that they check my receipt at CostCo. I dont see that as them thinking "I" am a thief. I think they are trying to prevent others from thievery. To my mind, it takes a rather guilty mind to read any and all security measures as calling you a thief. Plus, I dont buy into the "it cant prevent cracking" argument. Of course it cant. Nothing can. But you cant tell me then that means that if I cant guarantee it 100% that I should then take NO steps at all.




This is really two issues, so I'll respond as such.

With the first part, as several other people has indicated, what you, as a publisher, feel the DRM means isn't relevent. Your *customers* feel this way. As others have also pointed out (many times, in many threads), the store-tag analogy just doesn't work.

With the second, no, I'm not saying that. 

What we are saying, though, is that DRM is *so* useless that you shouldn't use it, in a situation like this. The people who pirate this stuff aren't computer noobs. Your using a format that has been cracked to hell and back since the summer of 01, at least, if not earlier. That isn't even secure from legal, commercial applications, much less script-kiddy cracking programs.

And it breeds a lot of ill-will. DRM, and most things to do with the DMCA, are some of the most hated, loathed, and detested things facing electronic media today. Even with the best of intentions, from the nicest people in the world, it's going to cause problems, anger, hurt feelings, and hatred. Add in the fact that some publishers (Not you) have been downright hostile regarding our dislike of it, the fact that there has been (at least percieved) evasion and double speek in some instances (Not pointing fingers), the fact that some publishers have taken the rather standoffish stance that seems to read as "If you complain, the products weren't meant for you anyhow", and the fact that a very beloved PDF publisher, Monte Cook, jumped on ship, and took all his previously open PDFs with him... Well, you have a perfect growth medium for negativity. 




			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> 8. I am trying to ADD a service and meet needs of people who otherwise do not have access to Necro books, such as people overseas or in countries that have onerous duties on books. It does seem somewhat strange that people are getting heat for ADDING a service and had they simply done nothing and not met a need for some fans (sure, not all), they would be getting NO flack.




As has been pointed out, a lot of these same people are in situations that make DRM a hell of a hassle too, if not downright unusable. 

Nobody is arguing that it's a good thing these publishers are putting their toe in the water. But the fact is, DRM is a very, very vile concept to a lot of people. Regardless of if you see the logic in this or not, it is. 

In this case I partly place blame on DTRPG... If they were going to publish with DRM, they should have explained this to the publishers. They had to have known.

As for adding a service... To many peoples eyes, my own included, a service that comes with so much baggage is worse than no service at all, because the people providing the so-called 'service' tend to a get a "You should like it because we say you should" attitude about it.



			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> The suggestion that DRPG has some control over these companies is just not true. I understand why people might think that, but all the same it isnt true.
> 
> There sure seems to be a whole lot of mis-information about DRPG and its intent out there.




Because it seems DTRPG as a whole doesn't always know what's going on, much less trying to compile facts from a variety of sources. The deal with how many computers you could register it on, for example. 



			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> I understand that many people have issues with DRM and fully respect that. But some seem to be taking thier dislike of DRM to a whole new personal level reagarding DRPG and that is sad. I was sorry to come here and read that sort of stuff. Particularly here, a set of boards that are IMHO far more civil than other similar boards (they know who they are).




I don't mean to sound condescending with this, honestly, but I've mulled the concept around in my mind and can't think of a more diplomatic way to say it, so I'll just be blunt and appologise in advance.

Doesn't that tell you something? That forums that are known to be civil and polite have been brought to this, to the point where Morrus and crew have had to start slapping people with temporary and permanent bans just to keep things to some halfway acceptable level of civility? I'm prepared to accept that the publishers were unaware of the level to which DRM was opposed. But I cannot accept that DTRPG wasn't aware, if they were planning to use it. I maintain that the publishers should have been told this. 

Individualy I really don't harbor any ill will towards most of the publishers, save a small percentage that have been rather rude regarding our complaints. I'm sorry this happened, most of you are great people who don't deserve all this ill will. But its sort of a "you made your bed, now you have to sleep in it" deal. No matter how much I like you and your products, I have my limits. Everyone has their limits. And by embracing DRM, you went beyond many, many peoples limit, in one fell swoop.

I urge you to reconsider the DRM on your products (And, maybe, a 25% drop in price on your pdfs... c'mon, some of us are poor college students   )... I've enjoyed your products in the past and would like to continue to do so. I know I'm not alone on that, either.


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## BryonD (Jun 12, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> To my mind, it takes a rather guilty mind to read any and all security measures as calling you a thief.




It is not a matter of being called a thief.  It is a matter of having restrictions placed upon us that are only intended to stop illegal activity, but stop fair use activity as a side effect.  So it is not a matter of perception as you seem to describe it, but rather a matter of real event.



> Plus, I dont buy into the "it cant prevent cracking" argument. Of course it cant. Nothing can. But you cant tell me then that means that if I cant guarantee it 100% that I should then take NO steps at all.




At some point the reduction in value of the product out weighs the value of the security added.  And the reference to 100% implies that you are in that ballpark.  It is SO easy to crack that adding a page to the front of the document stating that coping and distributing is not allowed in a giant font would be virtually just as good.  

My reply would be you can't tell me that you should take ALL steps just because they add greater than 0% to the guarantee.  Not saying you are not free to do whatever you want with your product.  You, of course, are absolutely 100% free to do WHATEVER you want with it.  But the reaction you get will correlate to the reasoning behind that action and the results it causes.



> 8. I am trying to ADD a service and meet needs of people who otherwise do not have access to Necro books, such as people overseas or in countries that have onerous duties on books. It does seem somewhat strange that people are getting heat for ADDING a service and had they simply done nothing and not met a need for some fans (sure, not all), they would be getting NO flack.




First, there is a big difference between the flack being aimed at DTRPG and the flack being aimed at Necro.  
DTRPG has contributed to a REDUCTION in service to many of us.  A lot of products that we regularly bought from other vendors are no longer availablr in the user friendly format we used to gain without us being forced to skate the law.
That caused a significant amount of anger at DTRPG.
Then the defenders of DTRPG came otu guns blazing instead of acting like they wanted to try to make their fan base happy.
This increased the anger an order of magnitude.

I also don't see why you must have *THIS* DRM in order to sale to overseas people.  



> But some seem to be taking thier dislike of DRM to a whole new personal level reagarding DRPG and that is sad.




Agreed.  But I place 90% of the blame on the behavior of DTRPG and a few publishers (not Necro).


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## malladin (Jun 12, 2004)

Okay, this DRM business is getting interesting.

Firstly could just summarise to make sure I've got a handle on the issues...

There seems to be two main arguments aginst DRM (I'm not even going to go anywhere near whether DTRPG has any repsonsibility or not):

1: That DRM is kind of 'morally reprehensible'.

2: That DRM is flawed and inhibits the buyer so much that it will inevitably impact on the sales of the products.

okay, here's my thoughts (small and insignificant as I am)...

1: I find it very difficult to get worked up about one side or the other of this argument.  I can see that intellectual property rights are a big issue, but for myself, at the level of the market at which I am trading, I don't see it as a big problem.  I think my stuff is well enough known by enough influential people in the online gaming community that should another company rip off some of my stuff I'd probably just get publicity for my work.  Hell, most of it is OGL anyway, so most of the time it's not even dodgy.  I also don't have a great worry about people distributing my work for free over P2P networks and the like.  I think I'm just pretty much small fry and that no-one would really be interested in doing that to my books (I suppose its the same reason I don't bother to lock my car - its a clapped-out piece of junk that no-one would bother to steal).  I also think that were I a bigger publisher with my works in print there'd be nothing to stop someone with a scanner simply scanning the pysical book in and doing the same anyway.  I know my thoughts are tempered with a large amount of apathy due to my perceptions about the size of my company, so I don't know if they would change if I did this more seriously.

2: Surely this is a case of wait and see.  People are always rushing in to say how bad some new change is going to be before they've given it chance to see if works or not.  For fans of 'proper' football (Soccer to the heathen ) there was a significant change made to the way league tables were calculated about 20 years ago.  Previously teams were awarded one point for a draw and two points for a win, with 22 teams in the league playing each other at home and away during the season.  At the end of the season points totals are added up to see who wins the league.  The change was made to make a win worth three points (with the draw still being worth 1 point). At the tine this change had many nay-sayers, claiming how it would spoil the very nature of the game.  Fortunately it did.  It put the emphasis on attacking play which has changed the game from being something that was largely a working-class interest to the world's most popular sport.  May be DRM will be a success, maybe it won't, but surely we need to wait and see.  I personally would rather not be the person beingtold 'I told you so' than be in a rush to be able to say it myself.

Cheerio,

Ben


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## maddman75 (Jun 13, 2004)

One thing to remember though is that this is NOT new, untested technology.  It has been around for some time, and has not been greatly successful and has been generally reviled.  Here is my biggest fear.

- Piracy on the DRMed materials will actually increase, for two reasons.  One, cracking the encryption is a lot easier than scanning a whole book.  And you end up with a better quality product, in theory losing only bookmarks as I understand.  Second, anything with DRM is like putting a big sign on your product that says "Please pirate me so you can brag about it on IRC"

- The public will be greatly turned off by these crippled PDFs, ultimately causing DTRPG to falter.

- End result that more piracy is going on and few publishers will want to get behind electronic publishing.


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## Orcus (Jun 13, 2004)

Good points made above. My theft example probably doesnt go far enough. And as you say it doesnt matter if I buy into it. There is definately a core of people who are "allegedly" my customers who say they wont touch products that have DRM. I myself dont find it to be insulting. I realize there are people who do. 

Now, I should also add that I believe that persons who hold these moral revulsion to products using DRM to be a very vocal minority. But I dont know one way or another. One thing I can tell you is that I am not going to make a rash decision one way or the other based on a week of flaming on a board. I've seen it before and in my experience RARELY does the vocal mob mentality (note: I am not calling everyone who is anti-DRM to be a mob, but I think we can say there is a rather rabid critical faction here and on RPG.net; most of the posters on this thread recently are making excellent and rational points that are useful for me as a publisher) actually represent a significant group of purchasers--particularly on these types of topics. But I dont know. I will wait and see.

One thing I have done right away is edit that "professional" reference from the standard press release for DTRPG. Frankly, I didnt even catch that language as offensive, but once I read some of the complaints I re-read the release and said "yeah, I see why that might upset people" and I removed it. So I am listening.

To me there are valid reasons for DRM, if for no other reason than that it encourages otherwise unwilling companies to be a part of the project. If you remove the "moral revulsion" factor, I truly dont find the restrictions that onerous. I tried it out with the free download. I could copy and paste and I felt I could use the document as I needed to use it. The only thing I felt the restrictions might have limited me was that they didnt allow me to do 100% of anything I wanted. But the things I couldnt do were things that I wasnt really going to do. I was losing hypothetical usability, not actual usability. But that is, perhaps, just me.

What I need to decide is are these "alleged" customers who claim they wont buy my pdfs with DRM actually going to be customers if I remove the DRM (presuming I am willing to) or not?

Right now, I'm not sure. What I see is alot of new people posting here. I suspect these are RPG.net types who have come here to vent their bile and anger over this issue. I also take note that RPG.net is on fire with this discussion, which speaks volumes to me as to how I should interpret this.

Plus, in all honesty, I'm not sure that removing DRM actually would make many of these "alleged" purchasers happy. Maybe I am wrong, but I think many of the "I object to DRM" alleged purchasers will continue to dislike DTRPG no matter what. They will just move on to the "its run by WW and I dont like that" issue. Or to the "you are trying to ruin RPGNow" issue. Or any other issue.

Here, for example, is a common sentiment on ENWorld:



> I mean, they put down RPGNow; they deny they are White Wolf, even though they are owned by the same people, use White Wolf employees, and have just about the entire line of WW productus; Monte Cook gloats how wonderful DRM is for gamers when it's really not; how it's always WW employees or associates who are rabid defenders of this, but deny their relationship to WW has anything to do with it (Bruce Baught, the Necromancer guy, etc)
> 
> I'm not a big PDF buyer - I think I've bought 1 from RPGNOw and some of the old OOP TSR stuff, but I do probably buy $40 worth of print RPG stuff a month, most months. From now on, I'm not buying any products from companies who use DTRPG. I'd rather not support companies that go out of it's way to imply it's customers are thieves, are heavy handed, take nasty swipes at their competition, and engage in semantics to try to play games about who owns them.




That guy isnt changing his mind just because I remove DRM. Then, by removing DRM, larger publishers have no interest in joining DTRPG, which I think is one of its greatest benefits. Heck, look at the stuff you can get there. And those publishers, IMHO, are there because of the security of DRM. 

I dont want to restart the security issue discussion. I know the different sides.

Could I call DTRPG and ask them to remove DRM? I guess I could. But that isnt the sole issue. As I said above it isnt like people will magically become happy with DTRPG if DRM is removed. I think that is the most convenient crutch for people who are anti-DTRPG for MANY reasons, the DRM just being the leading issue. DRM was not forced on us, but we all signed up for delivery of files over an Adobe server with an understanding the files would be protected/encrypted. That is what we signed up for. It wasnt forced on us.

I for one sort of anticipated people would not like DTRPG right off the bat because so many plugged in people love RPGNow--and for good reason. I thought the entry of DTRPG would cause people to think it would hurt RPGNow. I never saw it as that. In fact, I see DTRPG and RPGNow as doing different things. But I anticipiated some of the hard core RPGNow fans would not initially be warm to DTRPG.

I need some time to figure out what all this vitriol means. I need to know if these people saying they wont by our stuff is legit. Right now I think people are upset with DTRPG for lots of reasons. I dont think just taking off the DRM will fix them and now magically make people say "oh I love DTRPG and want to buy stuff from them." I think they will just move on to another reason why the dont like DTRPG which is something that DTRPG wont ever be able to fix--they arent RPGNow. I dont make rash decision. I take my time and try to figure things out. In the end, I may lose sales or I may not. That is hard to judge. In all honesty, people saying they wont buy my stuff doesnt mean that person actually would have anyway. I have seen this conduct before. I need time to determine what I believe is the actual impact of these comments. I can tell you, I havent recieved even ONE email griping about DRM on Necro titles.

But believe me when I tell you I am listening to all the concerns and I will do my best to tailor the needs of my fans to the most appropriate business model for Necro. I always have and I always will. That doesnt mean I will be able in the end to give people exactly what they want, but I will do my best to find the appropriate solution. I will say that I wont reach this decison over night and certainly not based on soem of the hostile emails. I appreciate everyone's passion, certainly, but I want things to calm down a bit.

I have already looked into personalizing my encryption settings with DRM, such as removing the copy/paste restrictions, and will most likely take that step. I am willing to listen to any rational complaint or concern that I can address. Right now, though, many complaints are coming in such a form that they are hard to act from. I'm not necessairly defending publishers either.

As always, I am happy to come in and answer questions. I hope I addressed some of the things raised after my last post. There was lots of stuff and I might have missed something. If so, repost and I will do my best to answer.

Clark


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## pogre (Jun 13, 2004)

Thanks for the reflective post Clark.

Honestly, the only thing the new security will do for me is to ensure that I buy the print version. That's probably a good thing for publishers like you. I worry about my cpu crashing and I get downright lazy when it comes to dl new software and such. A PDF that I cannot simply save on a cd and use on any cpu does not appeal to me.

A publisher who puts out a lot of modules has the most to gain by using a security code: Modules are the one thing people are going to use once and pass on.

I suspect you will be hurt much less by this move than folks who have deep roots in the PDF market like Monte. Their fan base is accustomed to getting unencumbered pdfs.

The tone of your post suggests that there is a segment of the gaming population that just likes to get mad - you're right. Yet, I think these kind of additional hassles to getting a pdf will shrink the pdf market or at least slow its growth. That is kind of too bad...


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## jgbrowning (Jun 13, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> That guy isnt changing his mind just because I remove DRM. Then, by removing DRM, larger publishers have no interest in joining DTRPG, which I think is one of its greatest benefits. Heck, look at the stuff you can get there. And those publishers, IMHO, are there because of the security of DRM.




I think this is the crux of the real discussion. Does DRM prevent piracy that effects the bottom line (as opposed to piracy that doesn't) enough to off set the loss of customers because of DRM?

I don't think there's a way to measure the real effects for causality and there are reasonable arguments from both sides.

Personally, I think the DRM doen't do so. I think companies, even large companies, will make more profit off non-DRM products than DRM products. Given the ease with which cracked copies will/are appearing, I can't think why publishers are willing to sell less easy-to-use product than pirates are giving away for free. Once the market is entered, it's IMHO better to enter with a product that's as useful as possible to the people willing to pay you for it, especially when everyone of those people have the option of not paying.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you're going to do PDF, do so in a format that's better or at least just as good as what's available/will be available for free. In my experience, it's always easier to make a second sale if the first sale is easy-to-use and the customer got everything they wanted in utility. I think this is the way to maximize profit in this particular market, not by trying to train customers to accept less utility than the medium allows because of publishers worries of piracy.

One last thing I think I should mention is that I don't think there's a reason why every publisher at DTRPG.com has to use DRM. Allowing each publisher to chose what they'd prefer would seem to me to allow for even more publishers to use DTRPG's services. The utility of DRM is not reduced if not every publisher uses it, and the services of DTRPG are not reduced if a publisher choses to not use DRM. Having it as a possiblity, but not a requirement, seems more potentially attractive.

Joseph Browning
Expeditious Retreat Press


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## 2WS-Steve (Jun 13, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> As always, I am happy to come in and answer questions. I hope I addressed some of the things raised after my last post. There was lots of stuff and I might have missed something. If so, repost and I will do my best to answer.
> 
> Clark




One thing that has happened is that over the past few years a customer base of people who regularly purchase PDF products has developed. Since I'm one of them, I figure I have some features in common with them. 

When I bought my first PDF I wasn't sure how I'd use it, or what value it would have, or how good an investment it was - but I was willing to try it out because Monte's books looked pretty cool and it was only a couple bucks. After a while and a few more purchases I started to buy PDFs more regularly. This happened, because, for me at least, the PDF stopped being merely a less expensive route to a low quality print out of a book, and started being a product that had value as an electronic product. They're easier on me when I move, less shelf space, convenient to pull up at the game table if I bring my laptop along, able to print out just sections for use in a game, and less expensive. 

I know that if the only thing the PDF did for me was provide the less expensive route to a low quality print out of a book, that I wouldn't have developed into a PDF customer. From what a number of others here have said, I take it I'm not alone in this. And that's why the following two issues are vital to me (I'll repost so you don’t have to dig):

*1. 6 registration maximum limit, then need to call Adobe to deregister.*

This limits the value as an electronic product. I figure I would purchase maybe 20 PDFs the initial year as I fill up on out of print material then perhaps 10 PDFs per year after that. After approximately 6 years I'll have gone through enough upgrades of various sorts on desktop and laptop that I'll have run through my registrations. That then means I'll need to call Adobe for all 20 products I purchased the first year. Maybe that can be done in a single phone call, but I don't relish the idea of talking to an Adobe tech support person in Burma to hash this all out. 2 years later I upgrade again and now I have to talk to a tech support person for 40 books, and so on.

Also, as it stands the above isn't even speculative. I'm guaranteed to need to go through this.

*2. What happens if DTPRG goes out of business, a publisher folds, or Adobe changes services?*

I don't know. Maybe it's not a problem. Does DTRPG keep the registration info or is it all done at Adobe? Or is it a combination of the two? But given that I could be 40 purchases in the hole when I find out the answer wasn't what I was hoping, I think it'd be wise to at least wait for some kind of clear answer posted to the DTRPG FAQ or Concerns page before I take that risk.


*******

I'm a pragmatic person. I understand that publishers want security for their materials. So I don't take it personally that they're using what technology is available to protect their investments.

However, I hope you can understand why a customer like me would be unwilling to purchase given the above concerns.

Perhaps it's the case that this version of DRM is the only technology currently available that makes publishers comfortable enough to release PDF versions of their books. It might also be the case that this version of DRM is sufficiently unpalatable to the existing PDF customer base, and those people who could develop into regular PDF customers, that sales are significantly hindered. 

If so, that's an unfortunate barrier to commerce. Which is sad, because I think electronic delivery of books has real potential. As it is, many publishers are sitting on a lot of fairly valuable intellectual property that they can't move because they can't justify another print run, or, even if they did, would only work its way into the most completist of gaming stores. A lot of gamers have books they'd like to purchase, if only they were available in a convenient format. And what we have is a technology that fails to bring these two groups together.


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## Orcus (Jun 13, 2004)

Those are excellent posts, Joseph, pogre.

Steve, I wanted to just touch on some of your issues. I know they have been done to death. But hey, I just got here! (busy week)

1. 6 registration limit.

I dont know the answer to this. But to me this is a hypothetical problem. I sure dont see needing to install on more than 6 computers. Maybe I am behind the times, but I dont think so. Between my desktop and home, my desktop at work, my laptop and my tablet computer (yes I have all 4) that still leaves 2. Oh I guess I could use my windows-based ipaq too. That still isnt 6. My understanding is that if you crash and have to redo your drive or you buy a new computer to replace your old one that you can call Adobe and they can reset. I see your issue about upgrades. Particularly if you have 40+ pdfs. I dont know if you can do that in one call or not. I'll tell you what. I will email Steve and the DTRPG guys and find out and get them to post an answer on the site in the FAQ.

2. DTRPG going out of business

I think the registration is with Adobe and DTRPG but I dont know for sure.

I will pass both of these on to Steve and the DTRPG people and I will have an answer for you.

Clark


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 13, 2004)

Hey guys, thanks for keeping things at a polite level again.


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## 2WS-Steve (Jun 13, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> I dont know the answer to this. But to me this is a hypothetical problem. I sure dont see needing to install on more than 6 computers. Maybe I am behind the times, but I dont think so. Between my desktop and home, my desktop at work, my laptop and my tablet computer (yes I have all 4) that still leaves 2. Oh I guess I could use my windows-based ipaq too. That still isnt 6. My understanding is that if you crash and have to redo your drive or you buy a new computer to replace your old one that you can call Adobe and they can reset. I see your issue about upgrades. Particularly if you have 40+ pdfs. I dont know if you can do that in one call or not. I'll tell you what. I will email Steve and the DTRPG guys and find out and get them to post an answer on the site in the FAQ.
> 
> Clark




For me, it's not a problem of installing on multiple computers at any one time. I figure at most I'd have one on my home desktop, one on my laptop that I take when I DM at someone else's house, and perhaps one on a work computer.

It's purely about making sure I'll be able to get the occasional use of my RPG collection in my future gaming. Often, RPG books are the kind of thing I can't work immediately into my game, but can find a spot for sometime down the line, or use bits of over time. I figure that's the tradeoff of RPG books--games take so long to play out that you might not get to use your purchase for a while, but then, you can always find some kind of use for that Dungeon magazine you still have from 1982.

But with an upgrade cycle of a new computer every 2-3 years, I know I'll be looking at one of those not-just-mildly annoying phone calls to Adobe where I try to explain to the overworked tech support guy that I need to deregister 20+ books. And I have this sneaky suspicion that's he's going to say something like "You're freaking nuts! 20 books! I need to talk to my manager."

Then two years later I'll need to say "er, I need 40 books deregistered..."


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## Tsyr (Jun 13, 2004)

For myself, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, Orcus, while I don't *like* DTRPG, I'd still be willing to buy from them. In the same way I'm willing to buy from a FLGS store I dont like, if its the only way to get something.

The DRM is another issue, and I won't buy as long as that is on.



			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> To me there are valid reasons for DRM, if for no other reason than that it encourages otherwise unwilling companies to be a part of the project. If you remove the "moral revulsion" factor, I truly dont find the restrictions that onerous. I tried it out with the free download. I could copy and paste and I felt I could use the document as I needed to use it. The only thing I felt the restrictions might have limited me was that they didnt allow me to do 100% of anything I wanted. But the things I couldnt do were things that I wasnt really going to do. I was losing hypothetical usability, not actual usability. But that is, perhaps, just me.




Except that I can't use it on my laptop, any of my desktops that dont run windows, people cant use it on Macs that run OS9, nobody can use them on their PDA, and no matter how slick DTRPG wants us to believe it is, there is more than one person who is unable to get them to work even in the ways they are supposed to for unknown reasons.

And that's *if* you remove the ethics of it, which isn't going to happen for most of the protestors.

Multiple publishers have said words to the effect of "I don't think DRM is probably very effective, but it gives some companies a sense of security". Fine. But if you are one of these people that thinks its probably not very effective (And I'm not speaking specificly to you, Orcus, though feel free to listen anyhow  ), why not drop the DRM on your products. Be an example to these other companies. They're already over the biggest hurdle. Their products are out in such a way that if anyone wants them, they can be pirated now. 

I don't know what was said, of course, but I'd almost bet that the absolute insecurity of DRM was not mentioned to these reluctant publishers to whom its a security blanket. Just like Adobe isn't very forthcomming with that information.


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## malladin (Jun 13, 2004)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> One thing to remember though is that this is NOT new, untested technology. It has been around for some time, and has not been greatly successful and has been generally reviled. Here is my biggest fear.
> 
> - Piracy on the DRMed materials will actually increase, for two reasons. One, cracking the encryption is a lot easier than scanning a whole book. And you end up with a better quality product, in theory losing only bookmarks as I understand. Second, anything with DRM is like putting a big sign on your product that says "Please pirate me so you can brag about it on IRC"
> 
> ...



I think my 'wait and see' argument is more a case of an understanding of the market forces involved.  I think there's a lot of people who wouldn't be bothered by the restictions of DRM.  As a user I generally download the book to my PC and read it on-screen.  I don't bother to print it out (my printer is next to useless) and I don't have another computer I might want to put it on.  I don't see that DRM would affect my use of PDF products at all.  And looking at the results of the customer Polls at RPGNow.com, I think people like me are in the majority of the user base.  Therefore it becomes an issue of balancing out how much of a problem the DRM is as opposed to how much I want the products available on DTRPG.  Thats just market forces and no-one really knows how this will pan out one way or the other. We can all make educated guesses, but we can do the same about sporting results, and I've never won a bet I've made on a sporting event.  Therefore, I'd say we'll all have to wait and see.  The same goes for whether it will lead to more piracy or less, there's no way to truely know until the dice have come to a halt, and at the moment they're still only being shaken.

Cheerio,

Ben


----------



## Psion (Jun 13, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> 1. 6 registration limit.
> 
> I dont know the answer to this. But to me this is a hypothetical problem. I sure dont see needing to install on more than 6 computers.




It's not about how many computers or devices you have now. It's about how many you _will_ have. I don't know about you, but for the last 10 years are an indication, I upgrade computers about three times as often as I do game editions.  And that's not even counting new hard drives or clean windows installs (which I occasionally find necessary after I have installed a number of software products that don't play nicely with others and don't remove cleanly.)

I think adobe is sort of short sighted on this point (either that, or limiting the life of the products was intentional.) I perfectly understand why there is a small limit on products; otherwise it's no limit at all. You could just share an adobe ID among a group.

But they could allow X number of new registrations per Y years. That would account for the computer turnover thing but not expose users to the whim of Adobe's tech support (and the hassle of havin to deal with them.)

But in short, I don't think this format is credible for end users yet. If I buy TOH online, I would want it to last just as long as the one on my shelf.


----------



## Morpheus (Jun 13, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> Right now, I'm not sure. What I see is alot of new people posting here. I suspect these are RPG.net types who have come here to vent their bile and anger over this issue. I also take note that RPG.net is on fire with this discussion, which speaks volumes to me as to how I should interpret this.
> 
> Clark




Thanks for reminding me of a couple of things. One-I go to rpg.net to laugh at all of the ridiculousness that is put in a forum and I come here to have reasoned discussions. Two-I had an epiphany about gaming while reading this thread (Sunday-bored-what are you going to do?) and it was just this: This is a game and a hobby for me. When it ceases to become fun I either quit or call it my job. This whole DRM thing has certainly put that in perspective for me.

P.S. Thanks, Clark, for the well-thought out contribution you added to this thread. Also, thanks for the Lost CIty of Barakus. I'm getting ready to run it...


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 13, 2004)

My understanding of Adobe's registration is that it's essentially a virtual site license ("virtual" in the sense that there doesn't have to be one physical "site" where all the devices are).  So what you do is set up the 6 computers for anything under the Adobe license/registration.  And then everything you use that's in that registration is good for those 6 computers.  So you're not registering each individual PDF or program you can use for 6 different computers but all of them for the 6 same computers.  When you call Adobe, you change the 6 computers on which you can use anything you've registered.


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## Brown Jenkin (Jun 13, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> One thing I have done right away is edit that "professional" reference from the standard press release for DTRPG. Frankly, I didnt even catch that language as offensive, but once I read some of the complaints I re-read the release and said "yeah, I see why that might upset people" and I removed it. So I am listening.




Thank you for listening in general and taking time to answer questions on these boards. I'm glad to see that you have corrected this and since Steve has appologized to RPGnow as well I don't realy see this as an issue for anyone anymore (unless some other publisher includes this in a future press release).




			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> Plus, in all honesty, I'm not sure that removing DRM actually would make many of these "alleged" purchasers happy. Maybe I am wrong, but I think many of the "I object to DRM" alleged purchasers will continue to dislike DTRPG no matter what. They will just move on to the "its run by WW and I dont like that" issue. Or to the "you are trying to ruin RPGNow" issue. Or any other issue.




There might be some who will object to DTRPG because it is run by WW or that it is not RPGNow, and you are right they will never be your customer as long as you are with DTRPG. However there are many people as well who's objection to DTRPG is the DRM issue. Look at Psion, here is a reasonable person by most peoples standards who is objecting to DRM not DTRPG in particular. While I can't speak for him, it wouldn't surprise me if he would be willing to purchace non-DRM PDFs from Drive-Thru. I personaly object to DRM as well and any statements I have made to punish DTRPG have been based on this issue. If even one company (Monte seems the most likely canidate) were to publish DRM free PDFs on DTRPG then I will no longer have any reason to complan about DTRPG. At that point it becomes not an issue of DTRPG (who is just providing the services that their clients ask for) but the individual publishers who are making this decision for whatever reason. Any complaints I have about how a publisher chooses to release its products will then solely fall on that particular publisher alone. 




			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> Right now, I'm not sure. What I see is alot of new people posting here. I suspect these are RPG.net types who have come here to vent their bile and anger over this issue. I also take note that RPG.net is on fire with this discussion, which speaks volumes to me as to how I should interpret this.




If you are afraid of the bleed over from RPG.net then feel free to discount some of the newer posters. But please don't discount ENWorld regulars (you can check the post counts and join dates by their avatars). You will likely find that many of the regulars here are part of the anti-DRM movement as well. 




			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> That guy isnt changing his mind just because I remove DRM. Then, by removing DRM, larger publishers have no interest in joining DTRPG, which I think is one of its greatest benefits. Heck, look at the stuff you can get there. And those publishers, IMHO, are there because of the security of DRM.
> 
> I dont want to restart the security issue discussion. I know the different sides.
> 
> Could I call DTRPG and ask them to remove DRM? I guess I could. But that isnt the sole issue. As I said above it isnt like people will magically become happy with DTRPG if DRM is removed. I think that is the most convenient crutch for people who are anti-DTRPG for MANY reasons, the DRM just being the leading issue. DRM was not forced on us, but we all signed up for delivery of files over an Adobe server with an understanding the files would be protected/encrypted. That is what we signed up for. It wasnt forced on us.




So lets see what happens if just one publisher released non-DRM PDFs on DTRPG and see what happens. The larger companies who need the security blanket of DRM could keep it on their files while the publishers who acknowlege that DRM is not an answer to security release DRM free PDFs (Monte certainly seemed to feel the open PDFs were fine to sell). I suspect that the moderates here on ENWorld would be happy to buy Non-DRM PDFs from DTRPG and the debate would continue rage over DRM but DTRPG would no longer be the target it is now.




			
				Orcus said:
			
		

> I need some time to figure out what all this vitriol means. I need to know if these people saying they wont by our stuff is legit. Right now I think people are upset with DTRPG for lots of reasons. I dont think just taking off the DRM will fix them and now magically make people say "oh I love DTRPG and want to buy stuff from them." I think they will just move on to another reason why the dont like DTRPG which is something that DTRPG wont ever be able to fix--they arent RPGNow. I dont make rash decision. I take my time and try to figure things out. In the end, I may lose sales or I may not. That is hard to judge. In all honesty, people saying they wont buy my stuff doesnt mean that person actually would have anyway. I have seen this conduct before. I need time to determine what I believe is the actual impact of these comments. I can tell you, I havent recieved even ONE email griping about DRM on Necro titles.
> 
> But believe me when I tell you I am listening to all the concerns and I will do my best to tailor the needs of my fans to the most appropriate business model for Necro. I always have and I always will. That doesnt mean I will be able in the end to give people exactly what they want, but I will do my best to find the appropriate solution. I will say that I wont reach this decison over night and certainly not based on soem of the hostile emails. I appreciate everyone's passion, certainly, but I want things to calm down a bit.




For what it is worth I would suggest you keep in close contact with Monte. Yes you will need some time to figure out what if any all of these complaints will have and what you should do. Monte will be the best source of data on sales as he will have good pre/post DRM sales figures. Perhaps all of us DRM complainers are a vocal minority who would never buy your products anways, but there is also the possibility that we are your customers. As you point out, only time will tell. Its good to know you are listening though.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 13, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> Now, I should also add that I believe that persons who hold these moral revulsion to products using DRM to be a very vocal minority.




Considering that the majority usually has troubles even keeping their computers virus-free, yes you'd expect the folks who have a strong opinion about this sort of security (either for or against) to be a minority.  

You're a businessman, and overall you're concerned mostly about sales and profit.  If these folks are a vocal minority, they may not hurt your sales much, directly.  If they are correct, though, that this DRM is a bad idea, in the medium or long terms publishers may be doing themselves and the industry some damage.



> But I dont know one way or another. One thing I can tell you is that I am not going to make a rash decision one way or the other based on a week of flaming on a board.




With respect - in some ways it seems like some of you publishers have already made rash, or at least poorly researched, decisions with respect to DTRPG and DRM.  More on that below.



> To me there are valid reasons for DRM, if for no other reason than that it encourages otherwise unwilling companies to be a part of the project.




Having otherwise unwilling companies join in is nice, so long as the possible failure of the venture doesn't drive them away from similar projects in the future.  




> Could I call DTRPG and ask them to remove DRM? I guess I could.




Are you aware that on the front page of DTRPG it says, "All of our books are in a secure PDF format. This means you must have Adobe Reader 6 and your Digital Rights Management (DRM) must be activated in order to view the files."  This seems to be an implication that you cannot. 



> DRM was not forced on us, but we all signed up for delivery of files over an Adobe server with an understanding the files would be protected/encrypted. That is what we signed up for. It wasnt forced on us.




It may not have been forced upon you, but from here (which is a place of limited information, I admit), it looks like it wasn't a well-informed decision.  You gave your product to a vendor, knowing that it would be encrypted, but _you don't know your rights_ regarding removing that encryption?  From such a thoughtful guy as you, I find that a tad surprising.  

It leaves me wondering.  Were you told of how easy it was to bypass?  Were you told that it would be controversial?  Did any of you go out and ask some of the computer-savvy geeks that comprise your target market what they thought of DRM before deciding to use it?

I won't be surprised if you cannot legally or ethically answer those questions.  If the answer to any of them is "no", though, I'd say there's a problem in there somewhere, intentional or otherwise.


----------



## francisca (Jun 13, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> What I need to decide is are these "alleged" customers who claim they wont buy my pdfs with DRM actually going to be customers if I remove the DRM (presuming I am willing to) or not?
> 
> Right now, I'm not sure. What I see is alot of new people posting here. I suspect these are RPG.net types who have come here to vent their bile and anger over this issue. I also take note that RPG.net is on fire with this discussion, which speaks volumes to me as to how I should interpret this.



I will, if you put some other products up, as I have already stated 3 or 4 times.  You can take that to the bank.  I like your products, I like your approach to products.  But I won't touch DRM.  

I'm not some refugee from rpg.net looking to rake muck.  And if you need a direct e-mail detailing my complaints about DRM, fine.  I'll compose and send you one after dinner.


----------



## evileeyore (Jun 13, 2004)

My thoughts as an up-and-coming ebook consumer*.

I dislike the restrictions imposed by DRM.  My reasoning is as such:  I am the owner of the product, how I treat it (within the clauses of fair use) is my concern.  If I wish to print, copy/paste snippets, or archive it, that is my choice.  Most importantly, I would like to bring it to a friends house for game.  If I am forced to register _*their*_ machine in order to do so, I won't buy the product.  Also I can't just lend it to a friend to read.

Now what if I crash the system, losing my hardrive?  Have I lost something I just paid money for, something I have no way of protecting from said crash?  Yes.

Now having raised those points...  I plan to simply strip the DRM and use the pdf (within the fair use deal) as I choose.  Note; I am a computer n00b.  But I do read forums, and some of them are very informative about how to do this.

--EvilE

*I never really paid ebooks or pdf book versions much attention, I am a CyberLuddite.  However, this recent vitriol fuelled debate has me looking around absolutely marveling at the awesome gems I had little awareness of previously.


----------



## Orcus (Jun 14, 2004)

> It may not have been forced upon you, but from here (which is a place of limited information, I admit), it looks like it wasn't a well-informed decision. You gave your product to a vendor, knowing that it would be encrypted, but you don't know your rights regarding removing that encryption? From such a thoughtful guy as you, I find that a tad surprising.




Of course I know my rights regarding removing DRM and distributing naked PDFs. It would benefit me, perhaps, to play stupid and say "gosh I just didnt know." But I chose to have that protection. I cant speak for other publishers, but I knew about DRM/Adobe restrictions.




> It leaves me wondering. Were you told of how easy it was to bypass? Were you told that it would be controversial? Did any of you go out and ask some of the computer-savvy geeks that comprise your target market what they thought of DRM before deciding to use it?




I dont believe it is as easy to bypass as is being represented. Can people do it? Of course. I'm not that worried about limited piracy. I know it cant ever be stopped. Let me worry about piracy of my products.

No I didnt ask "computer savvy geeks" as you call them what they think about DRM because I know what they think: Some are totally ambivilent, some dont like it but will deal with it, others will threaten to burn down your house if you mention DRM. I have learned absolutely nothing new since then, and my assessment was correct. It shouldnt surprise anyone with a clue that anything short of a naked pdf will ruffle some feathers.

But there were all sorts of reasons why DTRPG was going to ruffle feathers: hardcore RPGNow fans would be offended that there was a percieved competitor; it is run by a guy affiliated with WW, which brings all that baggage; it looks like the "big guy" which always offends gamers who invariably affiliate themselves with the little guy (moreso probably in the electronic gamer realm since any big guy is just an extension of the hard feelings from the evil pc vs. mac/microsoft vs. everyone else/windows vs. all other OS issues). And, as an additional matter, DRM pisses some people off. 

In the end, I had to make a business decision. And guess what, you cant please everyone. I felt the value of using DRM as part of DTRPG--so that it would attract a lot of really cool companies to provide top notch content--outweighed the negatives. DRM is just one of the problems. 

But as I look at it I wanted to be a part of this if I was going to enter into distributing pdfs.

I dont NOT view my customers as the enemy. In fact, quite the opposite. But as a business I cant take a one issue approach to things, which is a freedom that customers have. 

I have found these comments very helpful. As I mentioned before, I have already begun discussion on removing copy/paste restrictions on my products. And I am open to any other suggestions. I contine to listen and observe and will do my best to find a solution that meets my needs and the needs of my customers.

Clark


----------



## jgbrowning (Jun 14, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> I felt the value of using DRM as part of DTRPG--so that it would attract a lot of really cool companies to provide top notch content--outweighed the negatives. DRM is just one of the problems.
> 
> Clark




The cool companies providing top notch content is the real attraction to a potential new publisher signing on if they have any awareness about security realities. Whether or not the other companies use DRM isn't really an issue IMO, except for that companies not using DRM would have a larger potential market than DRM users because any person willing to buy a DRM is also willing to buy a plain PDF, but the opposite is not true.

This is the part I just I don't get, the market is larger without DRM than with DRM. Publishers are limiting their market because they think they'll recoup the difference through piracy prevention. Again this boils down to does DRM prevent more sales lost to piracy than it causes sales lost to people who don't want DRM?

All discussions about DRM are about this core matter. Either it increases the bottom line, or it doesn't. Since I can prove that more people are willing to buy PDFs than DRMs (as everyone willing to buy a DRM is certainly willing to buy a PDF but the opposite is most certainly not true) I feel that there must be very convincing arguments on the other side to show how that lost market segement is recovered through DRMs "piracy reduction".

I don't think that this been shown and I think the whole DRM is a "feel good" factor for most publishers. They feel like they should do "something" to protect their copyrights, but that something is definitely counter-productive (as shown through a smaller potential market) without showing how the benefits of DRM are supposed to compensate for that decrease. I think publishers don't want to face the fact that they've lost control of their IP to anyone who wants to get their product illegally already: even before entering the PDF market.

I'm being a pragmatic. I don't like piracy, but I do like more money.  If I'm going to do PDF, I'm going to do it in a way that maximizes profit/potential profit from that decision.

Joseph Browning
Expeditious Retreat Press


----------



## msd (Jun 14, 2004)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> This is the part I just I don't get, the market is larger without DRM than with DRM. Publishers are limiting their market because they think they'll recoup the difference through piracy prevention. Again this boils down to does DRM prevent more sales lost to piracy than it causes sales lost to people who don't want DRM?



And the real potential tragedy, IMHO, is that publishers who were not previously into PDF products might look (should it happen to occur) at slow PDF sales through DTRPG and conclude that "wow...PDF just isn't worth it."  This would be tragic because I don't think thats what customers are saying at all.  PDFs are very much worth it...PDFs with DRM are less so (I won't say worthless).

I dont blame the publishers because I can appreciate their concerns and fears.  I don't blame DTRPG because more competition in a free market is always a good thing.  I don't blame the customers because...well...the customer is always right.

Nonetheless, if DTRPG has less than stellar success because of DRM and publishers fail to attribute that record specifically to DRM, that will be a tragedy.  The publisher will have one less channel for their products, gamers will have fewer choices, etc.  In short, nothing good.

Personally, as someone who has read this thread religiously while only posting once early on, its nice to see that a civil tone has re-emerged.  Hopefully, a continuing discussion between publisher and consumer can make it so that can both get what we want in the end.

-matt


----------



## BryonD (Jun 14, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> I dont believe it is as easy to bypass as is being represented.




I promise you it REALLY is.

I've never been into anything remotely like hacking.
Friday night I decided to give DRM removal a shot.
Half an hour later I was done.
It is downright sad how easy it was.


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 14, 2004)

To expound on what Byron said...

I *assure* you it is as easy as is beign said.

I figured it out in about 3 minutes. Basicly the first thing I tried worked. And it was just a logical conclusion based on what DRM lets you do.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 14, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> Of course I know my rights regarding removing DRM and distributing naked PDFs.




My apologies if I came across as insulting.  It was just that the front page of DTRPG and your statement, "Could I call DTRPG and ask them to remove DRM? I guess I could," seemed to conflict, and perhaps I drew the wrong conclusion.



> I dont believe it is as easy to bypass as is being represented.




I myself cannot try it, as on my Win98 machine, I can't deal with DRM documents at all.  However, some of the folks pointing out the weaknesses are ones I'd trust to know what they're talking about.



> Let me worry about piracy of my products.




Honestly, I'm not all that worried about how many of your products get stolen.  Some of us are interested in the subject of piracy policy in general.  We'd like to see the industry (and society in general) take an enlightened, reasonable, well-considered, functional route in dealing with IP.  There's some solid arguments that, in the long run, taking on a poor security standard is worse for both business and consumers than having no security at all. 




> But as a business I cant take a one issue approach to things, which is a freedom that customers have.




Not all customers think it's a one-issue problem.  Some of us recognize some of the complexity.  We simply wonder about the priority given to some of the issues, is all


----------



## Dinkeldog (Jun 14, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> I promise you it REALLY is.
> 
> I've never been into anything remotely like hacking.
> Friday night I decided to give DRM removal a shot.
> ...




Guys, any fence in the world wouldn't take that long to penetrate.  Security measures can only really keep the honest people honest.  The dishonest ones are going to do whatever they please.


----------



## PJ-Mason (Jun 14, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> If you are afraid of the bleed over from RPG.net then feel free to discount some of the newer posters. But please don't discount ENWorld regulars (you can check the post counts and join dates by their avatars). You will likely find that many of the regulars here are part of the anti-DRM movement as well.




In my defense, i have been with ENWorld since near the beginning as Warchild. A few months ago i came back to ENW after a few month hiatus due to a busted computer that that didn't get addressed until i got around to it. Once i did i tried to reactivate my account but forgot the password and had a new email address, blah blah. I ended up just going with a new name on the boards.

Anyway, if it'll strengthen the value of my opinions, just add 200-300 to my post count to get a semi-accurate figure


----------



## PJ-Mason (Jun 14, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Guys, any fence in the world wouldn't take that long to penetrate.  Security measures can only really keep the honest people honest.  The dishonest ones are going to do whatever they please.




Honest people need to be keep honest? Ouch. Why even go into a business where security is an issue if they are ALL out to get you?!


----------



## Corwin-Rathe (Jun 14, 2004)

This has become a very heated subject in the last few years from the music industry to anyone that publishes creative material for public sale.

One author on a major SF & Fantasy (www.baen.com) publishers web site states this the best I've seen on this subject. It's a view frankly which ought to be more common. Because, reguardless of your security, those who are going to pirate will do it. I'll quote the piece as follows, it makes for some interesting reading:

Introducing the Baen Free Library
by Eric Flint
Baen Books is now making available — for free — a number of its titles in electronic format. We're calling it the Baen Free Library. Anyone who wishes can read these titles online — no conditions, no strings attached. (Later we may ask for  an extremely simple, name & email only, registration. ) Or, if you prefer, you can download the books in one of several formats. Again, with no conditions or strings attached. (URLs to sites which offer the readers for these format are also listed. )

Why are we doing this? Well, for two reasons.

The first is what you might call a "matter of principle." This all started as a byproduct of an online "virtual brawl" I got into with a number of people, some of them professional SF authors, over the issue of online piracy of copyrighted works and what to do about it.

There was a school of thought, which seemed to be picking up steam, that the way to handle the problem was with handcuffs and brass knucks. Enforcement! Regulation! New regulations! Tighter regulations! All out for the campaign against piracy! No quarter! Build more prisons! Harsher sentences!

Alles in ordnung!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I, ah, disagreed. Rather vociferously and belligerently, in fact. And I can be a vociferous and belligerent fellow. My own opinion, summarized briefly, is as follows:

1. Online piracy — while it is definitely illegal and immoral — is, as a practical problem, nothing more than (at most) a nuisance. We're talking brats stealing chewing gum, here, not the Barbary Pirates.

2. Losses any author suffers from piracy are almost certainly offset by the additional publicity which, in practice, any kind of free copies of a book usually engender. Whatever the moral difference, which certainly exists, the practical effect of online piracy is no different from that of any existing method by which readers may obtain books for free or at reduced cost: public libraries, friends borrowing and loaning each other books, used book stores, promotional copies, etc.

3. Any cure which relies on tighter regulation of the market — especially the kind of extreme measures being advocated by some people — is far worse than the disease. As a widespread phenomenon rather than a nuisance, piracy occurs when artificial restrictions in the market jack up prices beyond what people think are reasonable. The "regulation-enforcement-more regulation" strategy is a bottomless pit which continually recreates (on a larger scale) the problem it supposedly solves. And that commercial effect is often compounded by the more general damage done to social and political freedom.

In the course of this debate, I mentioned it to my publisher Jim Baen. He more or less virtually snorted and expressed the opinion that if one of his authors — how about you, Eric? — were willing to put up a book for free online that the resulting publicity would more than offset any losses the author might suffer.

The minute he made the proposal, I realized he was right. After all, Dave Weber's On Basilisk Station has been available for free as a "loss leader" for Baen's for-pay experiment "Webscriptions" for months now. And — hey, whaddaya know? — over that time it's become Baen's most popular backlist title in paper!

And so I volunteered my first novel, Mother of Demons, to prove the case. And the next day Mother of Demons went up online, offered to the public for free.

Sure enough, within a day, I received at least half a dozen messages (some posted in public forums, others by private email) from people who told me that, based on hearing about the episode and checking out Mother of Demons, they either had or intended to buy the book. In one or two cases, this was a "gesture of solidarity. "But in most instances, it was because people preferred to read something they liked in a print version and weren't worried about the small cost — once they saw, through sampling it online, that it was a novel they enjoyed. (Mother of Demons is a $5.99 paperback, available in most bookstores. Yes, that a plug. )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then, after thinking the whole issue through a bit more, I realized that by posting Mother of Demons I was just making a gesture. Gestures are fine, but policies are better.

So, the next day, I discussed the matter with Jim again and it turned out he felt exactly the same way. So I proposed turning the Mother of Demons tour-de-force into an ongoing project. Immediately, David Drake was brought into the discussion and the three of us refined the idea and modified it here and there. And then Dave Weber heard about it, and Dave Freer, and. . . voila. 

The Baen Free Library was born.

This will be a place where any author can, at their own personal discretion, put up online for free any book published by Baen that they so desire. There is absolutely no "pressure" involved. The choice is entirely up to the authors, and that is true on all levels:

— participate, or not, as they choose;

— put up whatever book they choose;

— for as long as they choose.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only "restrictions" we'll be placing is simply that we will encourage authors to put up the first novel or novels in an ongoing popular series, where possible. And we will ask authors who are interested not to volunteer more than, at most, five or six novels or collections at any one time. 

The reason for the first provision is obvious — to generate more public interest in an ongoing series. I'll have more to say about that in a moment. The reason for the second provision is that one of the things we hope the Baen Free Library will do is make it easier for a broader audience to become familiar with less well known authors. Burying the one or two novels which a new or midlist author might have under a mountain of Big Name backlist titles would work against that. And there's no reason to do so, anyway, because anyone can get a pretty good idea of whether they like a given author after reading a few of his or her books.

Jim has asked me to co-ordinate the project and I have agreed. After a humorous exchange on my appropriate title — I tried to hold out for. . . never mind — we settled on "Eric Flint, First Librarian. "That will allow me to give the periodic "newsletter and remarks" which I will toss into the hopper the splendid title of "Prime Palaver," a pun which is just too good to pass up. (I'd apologize to the ghost of Isaac Asimov, except I think he'd get a chuckle out of it. )

Earlier, I mentioned "two reasons" we were doing this, and stated that the first was what you might call a demonstration of principle. What's the second?

Common sense, applied to the practical reality of commercial publishing. Or, if you prefer, the care and feeding of authors and publishers. Or, if you insist on a single word, profit. 

I will make no bones about it (and Jim, were he writing this, would be gleefully sucking out the marrow). We expect this Baen Free Library to make us money by selling books.

How? As I said above, for the same reason that any kind of book distribution which provides free copies to people has always, throughout the history of publishing, eventually rebounded to the benefit of the author.

Take, for instance, the phenomenon of people lending books to their friends — a phenomenon which absolutely dwarfs, by several orders of magnitude, online piracy of copyrighted books.

What's happened here? Has the author "lost a sale?"

Well. . . yeah, in the short run — assuming, of course, that said person would have bought the book if he couldn't borrow it. Sure. Instead of buying a copy of the author's book, the Wretched Scoundrel Borrower (with the Lender as his Accomplice) has "cheated" the author. Read his work for free! Without paying for it!

The same thing happens when someone checks a book out of a public library — a "transaction" which, again, dwarfs by several orders of magnitude all forms of online piracy. The author only collects royalties once, when the library purchases a copy. Thereafter. . .

Robbed again! And again, and again!

Yet. . . yet. . .

I don't know any author, other than a few who are — to speak bluntly — cretins, who hears about people lending his or her books to their friends, or checking them out of a library, with anything other than pleasure. Because they understand full well that, in the long run, what maintains and (especially) expands a writer's audience base is that mysterious magic we call: word of mouth. 

Word of mouth, unlike paid advertising, comes free to the author — and it's ten times more effective than any kind of paid advertising, because it's the one form of promotion which people usually trust.

That being so, an author can hardly complain — since the author paid nothing for it either. And it is that word of mouth, percolating through the reading public down a million little channels, which is what really puts the food on an author's table. Don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

Think about it. How many people lend a book to a friend with the words: "You ought a read this! It's really terrible!"

How many people who read a book they like which they obtained from a public library never mention it to anyone? As a rule, in my experience, people who frequently borrow books from libraries are bibliophiles. And bibliophiles, in my experience, usually can't refrain from talking about books they like.

And, just as important — perhaps most important of all — free books are the way an audience is built in the first place. How many people who are low on cash and for that reason depend on libraries or personal loans later rise on the economic ladder and then buy books by the very authors they came to love when they were borrowing books?

Practically every reader, that's who. Most readers of science fiction and fantasy develop that interest as teenagers, mainly from libraries. That was certainly true of me. As a teenager, I couldn't afford to buy the dozen or so Robert Heinlein novels I read in libraries. Nor could I afford the six-volume Lensmen series by "Doc" Smith. Nor could I afford any of the authors I became familiar with in those days: Arthur Clarke, James H. Schmitz, you name it.

Did they "lose sales?" In the long run, not hardly. Because in the decades which followed, I bought all of their books — and usually, in fact, bought them over and over again to replace old copies which had gotten too worn and frayed. I just bought another copy of Robert Heinlein's The Puppet Masters, in fact, because the one I had was getting too long in the tooth. I think that's the third copy of that novel I've purchased, over the course of my life. I'm not sure. Might be the fourth. I first read that book when I was fourteen years old — forty years ago, now — checked out from my high school library.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In short, rather than worrying about online piracy — much less tying ourselves and society into knots trying to shackle everything — it just makes more sense, from a commercial as well as principled point of view — to "steal from the stealers. "

Don't bother robbing me, twit. I will cheerfully put up the stuff for free myself. Because I am quite confident that any "losses" I sustain will be more than made up for by the expansion in the size of my audience.

For me to worry about piracy would be like a singer in a piano bar worrying that someone might be taping the performance in order to produce a pirate recording. Just like they did to Maria Callas!

Sheesh. Best thing that could happen to me. . . 

That assumes, of course, that the writer in question is producing good books. "Good," at least, in the opinion of enough readers. That is not always true, of course. But, frankly, a mediocre writer really doesn't have to worry about piracy anyway. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about the future? people ask. Even if reading off a screen is not today as competitive as reading paper, what about the future when it will be? By which time advances in technology might make piracy so easy and ubiquitous that the income of authors really gets jeopardized?

My answer is:

Who knows?

I'm not worried about it, however, basically for two reasons.

The first is a simple truth which Jim Baen is fond of pointing out: most people would rather be honest than dishonest. 

He's absolutely right about that. One of the things about the online debate over e-piracy that particularly galled me was the blithe assumption by some of my opponents that the human race is a pack of slavering would-be thieves held (barely) in check by the fear of prison sentences.

Oh, hogwash.

Sure, sure — if presented with a real "Devil's bargain," most people will at least be tempted. Eternal life. . . a million dollars found lying in the woods. . . 

Heh. Many fine stories have been written on the subject!But how many people, in the real world, are going to be tempted to steal a few bucks?

Some, yes — precious few of whom, I suspect, read much of anything. But the truth is that most people are no more tempted to steal a few dollars than they are to spend their lunch hour panhandling for money on the streets. Partly because they don't need to, but mostly because it's beneath their dignity and self-respect.

The only time that mass scale petty thievery becomes a problem is when the perception spreads, among broad layers of the population, that a given product is priced artificially high due to monopolistic practices and/or draconian legislation designed to protect those practices. But so long as the "gap" between the price of a legal product and a stolen one remains both small and, in the eyes of most people, a legitimate cost rather than gouging, 99% of them will prefer the legal product.

Jim Baen is quite confident that, as technology changes the way books are produced and sold, he can figure out ways to keep that "gap" reasonable — and thus make money for himself and his authors in the process, by using the new technology rather than screaming about it. Certainly Baen's Webscriptions, where you can buy a month's offerings "bundled" at a price per title of around two bucks has demonstrated his sincerity in this.

(But he's just a publisher, of course, so what does he know?On the other hand. . . I'm generally inclined to have confidence in someone who is prepared to put his money where his mouth is. Instead of demanding that the taxpayers' money be put into building more prisons. )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reason I'm not worried about the future is because of another simple truth. One which is even simpler, in fact — and yet seems to get constantly overlooked in the ruckus over online piracy and what (if anything) to do about it. To wit:

Nobody has yet come up with any technology — nor is it on the horizon — which could possibly replace authors as the producers of fiction. Nor has anyone suggested that there is any likelihood of the market for that product drying up.

The only issue, therefore, is simply the means by which authors get paid for their work.

That's a different kettle of fish entirely from a "threat" to the livelihood of authors. Some writers out there, imitating Chicken Little, seem to think they are on the verge of suffering the fate of buggy whip makers. But that analogy is ridiculous. Buggy whip makers went out of business because someone else invented something which eliminated the demand for buggy whips — not because Henry Ford figured out a way to steal the payroll of the buggy whip factory.

Is anyone eliminating the demand for fiction?Nope.

Has anyone invented a gadget which can write fiction?Nope.

All that is happening, as the technological conditions under which commercial fiction writing takes place continue to change, is that everyone is wrestling with the impact that might have on the way in which writers get paid. That's it. So why all the panic? Especially, why the hysterical calls for draconian regulation of new technology — which, leaving aside the damage to society itself, is far more likely to hurt writers than to help them? 

The future can't be foretold. But, whatever happens, so long as writers are essential to the process of producing fiction — along with editors, publishers, proofreaders (if you think a computer can proofread, you're nuts) and all the other people whose work is needed for it — they will get paid. Because they have, as a class if not as individuals, a monopoly on the product. Far easier to figure out new ways of generating income — as we hope to do with the Baen Free Library — than to tie ourselves and society as a whole into knots. Which are likely to be Gordian Knots, to boot.


Okay. I will climb down from the soapbox. Herewith, the Baen Free Library. Enjoy yourselves!


Eric Flint
First Librarian
October 11, 2000

 PS. One final note. Users of the Library are welcome — encouraged, in fact — to send in their comments and questions, on any subject which is relevant to the Library and its contents. Write to me at: Librarian@baen. com

At periodic intervals (don't ask me how often, 'cause I don't know yet) these will be e-published in the Library under "Prime Palaver. "Along with my answers and my own remarks. Um. Also, probably, along with my own shameless promotional pitches. . .

(Oh, stop grousing. You know how to fast forward through commercials, don't you? If you don't, it's past time you learned. )


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## BryonD (Jun 14, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Guys, any fence in the world wouldn't take that long to penetrate.  Security measures can only really keep the honest people honest.  The dishonest ones are going to do whatever they please.




How does that contradict my point?
Orcus stated that he did not believe it was as easy to climb over this fence as was being claimed.  I pointed out that it truly is.  
Saying that it doesn't matter does not speak to whether or not the statement is true.

That aside, your point gets back to one of the double standards being tossed around. Some DRM defenders say that DRM does not treat honest users as criminals.  But then others turn around at say that the DRM is only there to target the honest users.  It either does a poor job of treating honest people like criminals or it is a complete and absolute failure at targeting actual criminals.  It is a very bad deal on both sides of the coin. So when one one failure is pointed out, diverting attention to the other does not make a very good defense.

Is there any relevence to the declining anologies?  I mean, we are all the way down to it just being a "fence" now.  And this is STILL weaker than a fence.  In order for DRM to be a fence it would need to be true that EVERY fence in the world had the exact same lock that could be opened with the exact same key.  And there are an unlimited supply of keys lying around for anyone to take.


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## Bloodstone Press (Jun 14, 2004)

Clark said:
			
		

> I dotn want to price pdfs to take away print sales or upset distributors




 I just want to voice my diagreement with this idea.

 First, its not just RPG companies that are thinking like this, many traditional print publishers who are toying with e-books are also thinking this way.... or might I more accurately say they are making similar public statements. 

 However, that's not how things work. For example, I publish through RPGnow. I am a "Gold" vendor, which means I pay them 25% of all my sales for their service. Beyond that, everything I make is profit. 

I have no printer costs, no warehousing to worry about, no damaged and returned goods to account for. Yeah, I have artist and editing costs as well, so at the end of the day its not really a full 75%, but it is still a lot more than what it would be if I sold my books in print. 

 I don't know what the profit margins are in the print industry but I know they are nowhere near 75%. 

 It seems to me that if I had a choice to make $2 off a sale of a printed book or $7 off the sale of the PDF version, I'd go for the PDF. Furthermore, I can make that $7 by selling the PDF at half of what the cost of the print version would be. 

 I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the argument that print publishers sell PDFs at prices that are equal to, or only slightly less than, the print costs so they don't cannibalize their print sales. I think they have other motives. 

 As for the part about upsetting distributors, it’s easy for me to say this since I don't do business with them, but I'm going to say it anyway. 

 To hell with them. This is capitalism. A better mousetrap has arrived on the scene and they need to either deal with it or find a new area of employment. If they are going to pitch a bitch about you pricing your books at half-off in PDF format, let them. What's the worst they'll do? Stop carrying your books entirely? That's only an even worse situation for them. If they did that across the board, they quickly wouldn't have any product to carry at all. And, I'm sure you could still find distributors who would carry your printed books, just maybe not the big names you're working with now.

 As I said at the top, all sorts of publishers (Del Ray, Random House etc) are saying things like that. And I just don't agree. 

 You can cut your prices by 50% and increase your profit margins by 300% if you distribute through PDF format. If the 50% off causes people to choose the PDF version over the printed version, that's only good news (and more money) for you.


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## Bloodstone Press (Jun 14, 2004)

> Guys, any fence in the world wouldn't take that long to penetrate. Security measures can only really keep the honest people honest. The dishonest ones are going to do whatever they please.




then why use it at all? 

 I also disagree with "any fence in the world wouldn't take that long to penetrate." 

 It is possible to build security systems that are nearly impossible to penetrate. However, DRM isn't one of them.


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 14, 2004)

Bloodstone, security systems that are extremely difficult to penetrate are also difficult for the appropriate people to access.  

BryonD, I don't know where you're from.  Here, the few neighbors that have fences don't have locks on them.  They have gates that are easily accessed.  But there's a statement with the fence that the owner wants you to respect their privacy.  

I would say though, that your claim isn't exactly true, and that if I gave a copy of the DRM to my parents (my standard for the average computer-naive person), that they would never figure out how to crack it.  It would probably take me about 5-10 minutes, as my skills are degrading a bit, and honestly I never much cared about that stuff, anyway.

Clark, I'd make one other suggestion:  if you could find a way for people that picked up the hard copy to get a copy of the pdf that would probably be the most useful thing for me and my groups.  Several members of my group travel for work (a lot), and the ability to have books on their laptop that they're taking with anyway rather than needing to carry around dead trees in their luggage has been huge.  Also, with that copy on the computer, we don't have to worry about everyone independently deciding to use someone else's copy of a book.  That's been the best thing about Malhavoc's stuff for us.  The combination of print and e-copy is much stronger than either on its own.  (How's that for hijacking a discussion on piracy?  )

And I take it since no one has challenged my statements on the Adobe registration that we're agreed on my interpretation?


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 14, 2004)

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> Honest people need to be keep honest? Ouch. Why even go into a business where security is an issue if they are ALL out to get you?!




Sure.  And the best security types I know are constantly aware of their surroundings.  That's something simple the Masters at Arms in the Navy taught me when I was doing security training with them.  That and don't put anything on your car that identifies you as being in the military or having been in the military or really announcing any group affiliation.  It makes you a much less likely target for any number of things--plus if the bad guys ever do invade, the first ones they're coming for is the people that they know were military (since we're more likely to be able to provide effective resistance).  Might as well make them at least do their homework.


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## Tsyr (Jun 14, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> BloodstoneI would say though, that your claim isn't exactly true, and that if I gave a copy of the DRM to my parents (my standard for the average computer-naive person), that they would never figure out how to crack it.  It would probably take me about 5-10 minutes, as my skills are degrading a bit, and honestly I never much cared about that stuff, anyway.




Thing is, though, this isn't really the target market. How many totaly computer illiterate people do you think are interested in RPG PDFs?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jun 14, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> I would say though, that your claim isn't exactly true, and that if I gave a copy of the DRM to my parents (my standard for the average computer-naive person), that they would never figure out how to crack it.  It would probably take me about 5-10 minutes, as my skills are degrading a bit, and honestly I never much cared about that stuff, anyway.




Yes, but the average computer naive person isn't buying PDFs.

The people who buy PDFs are, in my experience, extremely computer literate, to the point of being _immersed_ in technology all day long. Hence, the need for a portable electronic format, one that can move from machine to machine, desktop to laptop to office to PDA, etc.

Mom and pop would probably rather have a book.

That's what I don't understand about the "extremely vocal minority" comments. It seems to deny the fact that this minority IS your market.

Though I understand from Clark's comments elsewhere that he isn't looking at this from a marketing perspective, and that he only wants to provide the books to that handful of folks who can't get them overseas and so forth-- which is a nice gesture to be sure-- personally, if the money were not an issue for me, I wouldn't bother to release PDF at all, given the fact that DRM isn't secure.

I have, in fact, had folks from Europe or South America email me several times, asking for an electronic version of my products, and the answer is always, "Sorry, no." I like to be a nice guy, too, but not at the cost of relinquishing control of my digital files.

Wulf


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## BryonD (Jun 14, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> BryonD, I don't know where you're from.  Here, the few neighbors that have fences don't have locks on them.  They have gates that are easily accessed.  But there's a statement with the fence that the owner wants you to respect their privacy.




I only referenced the fence because it was your anology.  I don't agree that the extent that you have dragged out that anology lines up at all with the claims made by the proponents of DRM.  If you are going to take it that far then I'll just state that a fence is a completely flawed analogy and my statement above applies to DRM even if it does not apply to fences.

If all this is supposed to be is a "statement", then it there is no way it is worth the encroachment on reasonable use expectations that it produces.  As I said before, adding a "do not share this file" page to the front would be a statement that the owner wants their rights respected and would do zero harm to the honest users.

Again, are you now clearly stating that the point of DRM is to target honest users and is not expected to have any impact on criminals?  Because the defenders of DRM have expressed dismay that anyone would think this is targeting honest customers.  Are they wrong?



> I would say though, that your claim isn't exactly true, and that if I gave a copy of the DRM to my parents (my standard for the average computer-naive person), that they would never figure out how to crack it.  It would probably take me about 5-10 minutes, as my skills are degrading a bit, and honestly I never much cared about that stuff, anyway.




Would your parents EVER buy a pdf product?  How are people who are would never be involved in any way relevant?  And if they would use this type of thing, then I assure you that you are wrong.  Beating the DRM is really no more complicated than installing the Acrobat Reader.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 14, 2004)

What gets me as well (as the fact that a PDF isn't really in competition with print product for a number of reasons) isn't the shelf life of an RPG product (particular D20 supplements) pretty short? If it doesn't shift in the first few months then it could stick around on the shelf for a long, long time. Don't the sales figures for RPG products reflect that? IE: Big money (well for RPGs) in the first couple of months then the sales crash dive.

Surely it would make sense to sell PDF's of older products at a discount, since by then they aren't really in competition with products on the shelf, as their sales have died off.

For example Dragonstar was raved about on the boards before it came out, I'm sure most folks that wanted it will have rushed out and bought it straight away, now months (or is it years) on from release its sales (at least of the core books and early releases) must have trickled to a low ebb.

If the PDF of the core books was release at a decent discount or for free, you would likely see the following.

First you get another chance to do a press release and get the rumour mill working for you on the messageboards and EN-World's RPGNet, etc. front page. This could renew interest in the print version as well (more money for retailers)

Second you would get folks that bought the original books buying the PDF thanks to the lower price, and the additional utility of having the books in electronic format. (More money for you)

Third folks that haven't bought the original book due to limited budget or not wanting to spend so much on something they might not like, will pick up the cheaper PDF. (More money for you)

Fourth some folks that buy the PDF may want to pick up the print version, as its better quality than a laser print. (more money for retailers)

The book probably wasn't selling so well so long after its release date anyway so you aren't in competition with its sales so the retailer can't complain, and the renewed interest might actually help sales of the print version.


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## Brown Jenkin (Jun 14, 2004)

I've been thinking about this and keep coming  up confused over Clark's reasoning. You shouldn't give in to a vocal minority, but that is exactly what he is doing only the vocal minority is overseas customers who can't get print copies. Additionaly the overseas market he is targeting is not bound by the DCMA and people can both easily and legaly remove the protection on his files. Also in many of these countries it is also perfectly legal to place those very same files up on P2P networks to be shared. So the vocal minority that Clark is listening to right now are the hardcore pirates that provide the casual pirates with their ilegal copies in the first place.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 14, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> So the vocal minority that Clark is listening to right now are the hardcore pirates that provide the casual pirates with their ilegal copies in the first place.




Funny I thought the vocal minority he was listening to was the distributers hence his prices were so high. Also I don't think all the folks living outside of the USA and its dranocian DCMA law are hardcore pirates, like you seem to imply.


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 14, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I have, in fact, had folks from Europe or South America email me several times, asking for an electronic version of my products, and the answer is always, "Sorry, no." I like to be a nice guy, too, but not at the cost of relinquishing control of my digital files.




My parents, actually, probably would be interested in a pdf if there were some on topics that interested them.  They're great at adapting to technology, they just need to be told there's something that can help them.  Like most people out there.  You should see my dad with the digital camera now.  He's figured out how to hook it up to the DVD.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 14, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Thing is, though, this isn't really the target market. How many totaly computer illiterate people do you think are interested in RPG PDFs?



 Computer illiterate people probably woudn't buy PDFs.  But I certainly am an example of someone not particularly competent with computers who has bought a large number.

Adobe is an easy program to use, and available widely.  I've got no idea what percentage of PDF customers are 'techies', but certainly a large number of people who surf the net, read EN World, and play D&D (i.e. _potential_ PDF customers) aren't.

Cracking PDF files certainly takes a great deal more effort and/or competence.


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## BryonD (Jun 14, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Cracking PDF files certainly takes a great deal more effort and/or competence.




No, it doesn't.

If you can install reader by yourself, you can crack pdfs by yourself.


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## Brown Jenkin (Jun 14, 2004)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Funny I thought the vocal minority he was listening to was the distributers hence his prices were so high. Also I don't think all the folks living outside of the USA and its dranocian DCMA law are hardcore pirates, like you seem to imply.




The distributers are the reason the prices are so high, and they could contnue to be high even without DRM. As for pirates, well I don't think all the folks who live in the US are casual pirates, but that is the assumption made by imposing DRM. Since DRM is imposed because some people in the US are casual pirates, I just thought I would point out that the people overseas are more likely to be the hardcore pirates since actualy under their laws they are not pirates at all. I'm sure many of the people overseas are very nice and will not post cracked PDFs on p2p networks. But just as DRM was imposed because some people in the US pirate stuff, it is hard to imagine that you would impose this on the US folks while making the decicion to release PDFs at all because of overseas demand where it is more likely that your stuff will be legaly pirated for the world.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 14, 2004)

> No, it doesn't.
> 
> If you can install reader by yourself, you can crack pdfs by yourself.




Maybe you can, but how many poeple would really bother?

As I said, Adobe is extremely easy to use.  You don't need to go searching for it.  Any site offering PDF products has the link directly to adobe.com.  A lot of casual internet users would be aware of of that software.  And the installation is simple.

Now, I'll accept it's elementary to crack a PDF file, though I probably couldn't do it without more effort than I would care fore..  But I think anytime poeple are forced to go and search for something, there's a reduced possibility they'll do it.


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## Tsyr (Jun 14, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Maybe you can, but how many poeple would really bother?
> 
> As I said, Adobe is extremely easy to use.  You don't need to go searching for it.  Any site offering PDF products has the link directly to adobe.com.  A lot of casual internet users would be aware of of that software.  And the installation is simple.
> 
> Now, I'll accept it's elementary to crack a PDF file, though I probably couldn't do it without more effort than I would care fore..  But I think anytime poeple are forced to go and search for something, there's a reduced possibility they'll do it.




This is something I can't seem to explain.

You don't have to search for it.

If you use OSX, you have the tools on hand.

If you publish PDFs yourself, you have a good chance of having the tools on hand.


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## BryonD (Jun 14, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Maybe you can, but how many poeple would really bother?
> 
> As I said, Adobe is extremely easy to use.  You don't need to go searching for it.  Any site offering PDF products has the link directly to adobe.com.  A lot of casual internet users would be aware of of that software.  And the installation is simple.
> 
> Now, I'll accept it's elementary to crack a PDF file, though I probably couldn't do it without more effort than I would care fore..  But I think anytime poeple are forced to go and search for something, there's a reduced possibility they'll do it.




People right now bother to sit and scan printed books page by page.
Are you saying people who will do that won't do this?

99.9999% of people who would bother to pirate a book can and would bother to crack a pdf.

How does a technology stop piracy if it is easier to pirate materials with this technology? (Necromancer products will be easier to pirate now that you can just crack the pdf, rather than the old scan the book method).

Your argument gets back around to DRM treats honest people like criminals while doing nothing to criminals.  Not exactly a strong endorsement.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 14, 2004)

> 99.9999% of people who would bother to pirate a book can and would bother to crack a pdf.




I guess we're just not going to agree on this point, and I dont' know if it's worth debating to death.  I just don't know if that's true.

There are a lot of different internet users out there.

A number of publishers seem to think it the security will stop at least some pirates.  I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on that point.  It's their IP and money on the line.  And I'm sure they're not using the security to make customers upset.


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## francisca (Jun 14, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> People right now bother to sit and scan printed books page by page.
> Are you saying people who will do that won't do this?
> 
> 99.9999% of people who would bother to pirate a book can and would bother to crack a pdf.



I agree with you, but I think your argument is not quite right.  Just like most people who download MP3s, those who aquire pirated RPG books do not do the scanning or purchasing, and will not be the ones doing the cracking.  They will simply wait around for someone else to do so.  All you need is one scan or one non-DRM copy then it is all over.

I firmly believe that DRM will make it easier to pirate previously print-only material, as the single biggest barrier, scanning, is no longer needed.  Just crack the DRM and you are done.

Of course, I think this will lead to extra print-copy sales as well, as at least some people out there prefer print to pdf.


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## BryonD (Jun 14, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I guess we're just not going to agree on this point, and I dont' know if it's worth debating to death.  I just don't know if that's true.
> 
> There are a lot of different internet users out there.
> 
> A number of publishers seem to think it the security will stop at least some pirates.  I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on that point.  It's their IP and money on the line.  And I'm sure they're not using the security to make customers upset.




Can you point me to where one of these publishers has answered this question?

Can you describe to me a model where by a pirate who would bother to sit and scan every freaking page would be put off by cracking a DRM pdf?

Are you really just agreeing to disagree on blind faith?  Because it is not like this is a difference of opinion.  If your side is correct, then you I can not have done something that I HAVE done.


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## BryonD (Jun 14, 2004)

francisca said:
			
		

> I agree with you, but I think your argument is not quite right.  Just like most people who download MP3s, those who aquire pirated RPG books do not do the scanning or purchasing, and will not be the ones doing the cracking.  They will simply wait around for someone else to do so.  All you need is one scan or one non-DRM copy then it is all over.
> 
> I firmly believe that DRM will make it easier to pirate previously print-only material, as the single biggest barrier, scanning, is no longer needed.  Just crack the DRM and you are done.
> 
> Of course, I think this will lead to extra print-copy sales as well, as at least some people out there prefer print to pdf.




Certainly.  There are probably only a few dozen people bothering to scan the books now.  They provide the source material that unknown numbers of people then pass along.

However, those few dozen people will now have any even easier time priming the pump.  And because it is so easy to do, ten times that many people will probably be producing source material.

Anyway, this may just be trivial details regarding the path to be taken.  It seems we both agree what the end result will be.

The piracy leads to more sales in the long run is a seperate matter.  I can see the reasoning, but I have no idea if it turns out to be true or not in practice.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 14, 2004)

double post


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## francisca (Jun 14, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> A number of publishers seem to think it the security will stop at least some pirates.  I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on that point.



And once the DRM has been removed from a pdf, what barrier is there to piracy?  Only one pirate has to remove DRM from the file, then it hits the P2P nets.  

A lock on a door will stop casual thieves.  But what happens when the door is removed?


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## francisca (Jun 14, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Certainly.  There are probably only a few dozen people bothering to scan the books now.  They provide the source material that unknown numbers of people then pass along.
> 
> However, those few dozen people will now have any even easier time priming the pump.  And because it is so easy to do, ten times that many people will probably be producing source material.
> 
> ...



Ah yes.  I hadn't considered that even more would be pirating, due to the ease of removing DRM.  In hindsight, it's a no-brainer.

And on the last point, I don't think we'll ever know, though the Baen Books example will be the closest approximation.


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## RPGgirl (Jun 14, 2004)

I know of at least one major author that has taken the stance and made large chunks of his books available for download from his site.  The theory being that if people like what they read, they'll go out and buy the actual book.  I think the same holds true for RPGA material.  Rather than spend hours sitting at Barnes and Noble, Chapters, Indigo, or the local gameshops, people will download a scanned copy, decide if they like and then go out and buy it.  Fact is, pirated copies will not replace printed copies, and people that use the pirated copy without buying the printed copy would like never have bought the printed copy in the first place, probably because the book is just not useful enough to them.


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## LeaderDesslok (Jun 14, 2004)

Wow, lots of info going back and forth.  I initially posted some interesting problems with DRM way back on page 5.  My initial reaction to Drivethrurpg.com was negative, mainly because of the idea of exclusivity and a poorly functioning security scheme, but I admit my perceptions were colored by the massively negative outcry I read on forums.  I'm a week older and wiser now <<ahem>>, and my opinion of DTRPG is a bit different.  Just some general comments, which hopefully won't offend anyone.

* DRM is bad.  I don't say this because of any moral implications, or because it is so easily crackable, but because of the problems I've had using it.  First I was able to download and fully use two free PDFs I got from DTRPG without activating DRM, and now I'm having problems downloading a free and a paid PDF both without and with DRM activated.  DTRPG says the file was delivered, but Adobe Reader shows nothing.  Still waiting on tech support, but my first message regarding this was last night (Sunday), so there's probably a backlog of service messages.  Hopefully it will be resolved, but I suspect I will have more problems in the future.

* The vitriol over the press release stating that DTRPG was the first "professional" PDF site was probably warranted, but after reading Orcus' comments I think the real problem with the statement comes down to context.  The use of "professional" in the release seems to indicate that only companies that have to date provided hard copy, printed products as their primary income channel are professional.  To those users who are not very familiar with the PDF market or are not as computer savvy as others this makes sense and would be very attractive.  When it comes down to it, I think it is more a case of poor wording than anything else.  Steve and the folks at DTRPG perhaps should have recognized this as a problem, but they didn't and have apologized for it.  I don't think a majority of people are going to care either way in another month.

* Some publishers have been very negative towards DTRPG.  I can't help but think that there is some level of jealousy going on there, having not been "invited" to join the initial offering of corporate products.  I might take some heat for that statement, but I think it's true.

* As a publisher, I would think the biggest obstacle to signing on with them would be the exclusivity deal.  It hasn't been stated explicity yet that that is a requirement (I think), but I assume it is.  As a publisher, I would want to be able to offer my products on a number of different sites, including both DTRPG and RPGNow, rather than lock myself in with one company, no matter how successful that company may become.  That being said, I remind you that I AM NOT A PUBLISHER.  It's just my view.    

* I will most assuredly continue to buy products from DTRPG.  I will most assuredly also continue to buy products from RPGNow.  I'll go to DTRPG to get "name brand" products (by that I mean stuff that's also available in brick and mortar stores) and I'll go to RPGNow for the other publishers that offer me cool products that I'd otherwise miss.  These two companies can easily coexist without hurting my rather small wallet.  RPGNow has not lost a customer, I'm just shopping around.

* Instead of hurling insults or accusations around, I think we should all look at the big picture and congratulate DTRPG for getting non-PDF publishers to offer products online.  I don't care if it was shifty and underhanded or on the level, if it took 6 months or six days, the fact is that I now have access to products that were formerly only available to me in print, and many of the products offered I could never find in stores anyway.  This is definitely a good thing, regardless of the smaller issues that revolve around it.  And IT'S ONLY BEEN ONE WEEK.  Who is to say that publishers will only offer products on DTRPG in the future, or that exclusivity will even be a requirement at the site in 1 year?

* I was a bit pissed off last Sunday that I couldn't access DTRPG and that when I did it was incredibly slow, but those problems are mostly resolved now.  Thinking back to the opening of some MMORPGs, I think they did pretty good considering the marketing that went into the opening.  New online services will ALWAYS have kinks when they are first introduced, we just have to learn to switch to decaf and relax while the bugs are ironed out.    

I think that's everything I had to say.

QUESTION FOR STEVE and/or DTRPG:  Any idea what the average queue time is for getting answers to problems reported with the site?


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## PJ-Mason (Jun 15, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Sure.  And the best security types I know are constantly aware of their surroundings.  That's something simple the Masters at Arms in the Navy taught me when I was doing security training with them.  That and don't put anything on your car that identifies you as being in the military or having been in the military or really announcing any group affiliation.  It makes you a much less likely target for any number of things--plus if the bad guys ever do invade, the first ones they're coming for is the people that they know were military (since we're more likely to be able to provide effective resistance).  Might as well make them at least do their homework.




That sort of awareness is fine...if your in counter terrorism or border patrol. Or maybe in my area of security, where i work the security division for a local paper factory. If the plant boiler room blows because we aren't paying attention, it'll level the entire plant, a big chunk of highway, and only god knows what to the portion of the Oswego river that runs along the other side of us into Lake Ontario.
If i don't do my job, the company can lose millions to just a mistake, not even necessarily theft. In fact our bosses pretty much IGNORE the petty thefts that we report to them on almost a daily basis, because its just not worth the hassle to roust the ire of their union by going after them. Its just cheaper to ignore the small stuff and keep their eye on the big picture. Making paper. Its ironic that someone that works in a paper mill likes pdfs better than print books, eh? 

Of course, if you knew what i knew about what ends up in those pulp pits and the paper presses, you might not want to be touching those books either!   

But what we are talking about in this thread is a different universe than any of that type of stuff.

What this DRM business says to me is that the companies don't trust their customers. Or distrust a VERY SMALL portion of us SO much that they are willing to slap all us down to get at them. Its a little harsh maybe, but thats how i see it. Not that i truly take it personally, i'm in security, you've never seen such a paranoid group. This DRM stuff is small fry compared to what security companies would do to the world if they could get away with it. But then I'm an aberration amongst my security brethren. I'm pragmatic, not paranoid 

The fact that many publishers are saying "Hey trust us. We're not bad guys!" while at the same time saying (with their actions if not words) "Well, we don't trust you to be honest with our products, so we gotta do DRM" seems little funny to me. 

Am i boycotting? Yes, its just the principle though, nothing personal. Just something i think is right to do. 

Edited for your spelling pleasure


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## Psion (Jun 15, 2004)

> Some publishers have been very negative towards DTRPG. I can't help but think that there is some level of jealousy going on there, having not been "invited" to join the initial offering of corporate products. I might take some heat for that statement, but I think it's true.




I don't know specifically who you might be talking about, but I think you are wrong in relation to a few that come to mind.

I would love to know who DTRPG asked but rebuffed them...


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## Funksaw (Jun 15, 2004)

The only one I know of is Green Ronin, a fact which caused me to finally pick up Mutants & Masterminds.  Atlas Games (perhaps in a shrewd move) hasn't said diddly about whether or not they were invited, but I would be very surprized to think that they weren't.


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## PJ-Mason (Jun 15, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> The only one I know of is Green Ronin, a fact which caused me to finally pick up Mutants & Masterminds.  Atlas Games (perhaps in a shrewd move) hasn't said diddly about whether or not they were invited, but I would be very surprized to think that they weren't.




Did they state this somewhere? How did you find out exactly? I am quite the happy camper if this is true! Both my favorite publishers are these two.   

Although there was 1 or 2 that went over to DTRPG that stings quite bit.  


*Sigh* Once again, edited for your spelling pleasure..............


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## philreed (Jun 15, 2004)

Orcus said:
			
		

> Plus, in all honesty, I'm not sure that removing DRM actually would make many of these "alleged" purchasers happy. Maybe I am wrong, but I think many of the "I object to DRM" alleged purchasers will continue to dislike DTRPG no matter what. They will just move on to the "its run by WW and I dont like that" issue. Or to the "you are trying to ruin RPGNow" issue. Or any other issue.




I was about to post a long comment describing why _I_ would buy some of these if DRM were removed but then I realized that I'm not the usual customer.

No matter what happens, though, good luck with your PDF sales. It is nice to see the PDF industry getting a huge shot of respectability and increasing awareness of PDFs.


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## Rasyr (Jun 15, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I don't know specifically who you might be talking about, but I think you are wrong in relation to a few that come to mind.
> 
> I would love to know who DTRPG asked but rebuffed them...



Well, the only one that I can speak of with certainty is Iron Crown Enterprises. ICE was asked, and turned down the offer for several reasons.


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## Psion (Jun 15, 2004)

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> Did they state this somewhere? How did you find out exactly?




I would like to know this too.

Not that I doubt it is true. I can't imagine anyone making a laundry list of big names in RPGs these days without listing Green Ronin. I just think they are too classy to say anything about such deals after the fact.


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## PJ-Mason (Jun 15, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I would like to know this too.
> 
> Not that I doubt it is true. I can't imagine anyone making a laundry list of big names in RPGs these days without listing Green Ronin. I just think they are too classy to say anything about such deals after the fact.





Agreed. I glanced over their message boards (i usually peruse their M&M threads exclusively) and i couldn't find anything related to that topic. I really didn't want to start a DTRPG dicussion over there either, so i didn't post the question myself.


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## Pramas (Jun 15, 2004)

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> Did they state this somewhere? How did you find out exactly? I am quite the happy camper if this is true! Both my favorite publishers are these two.




Yes, it's true. We were approached about DTRPG. I examined the offer, gave it some thought, and decided it wasn't right for GR. No big controversery, just business.


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## Cergorach (Jun 15, 2004)

Pramas said:
			
		

> Yes, it's true. We were approached about DTRPG. I examined the offer, gave it some thought, and decided it wasn't right for GR. No big controversery, just business.



Does this mean that we won't be seeing any digital versions of GR products in the near future?


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## PJ-Mason (Jun 15, 2004)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> Does this mean that we won't be seeing any digital versions of GR products in the near future?




I second this question. I have all of the M&M books (except noctunals) and several of your other products. I want almost ALL of them, I just can't afford all of them! But if i could get all the ones i'm interested in as a reasonably priced pdf....watch out. There are least 10 of your books i'd like to get my Adobe reader on! No joke. PDF sales will never replace you print sales, but the extra revenues wouldn't hurt! Plus it would make me sooo happy


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## Pramas (Jun 15, 2004)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> Does this mean that we won't be seeing any digital versions of GR products in the near future?




Our focus is print publishing. That said, we do have some plans in the digital arena. Some of our out-of-print books will return in PDF form, for instance, starting with Death in Freeport Revised (which 3.5 updates our very first d20 offering). We've already done one PDF-only release (the Spaceship Zero adventure Slaveship of Despair) and may do a few others.


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## Steve Wieck (Jun 15, 2004)

LeaderDesslok said:
			
		

> QUESTION FOR STEVE and/or DTRPG:  Any idea what the average queue time is for getting answers to problems reported with the site?




Unfortunately, the flu laid out our main customer service gent for a few days, but he's back on his feet now, shouldn't be long.

Steve


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## Steve Wieck (Jun 15, 2004)

*Adobe 6 computers*

Per questions early in the thread:

While I'm sure some experiences will vary, when we've tested the call in to Adobe to de-register computers on an account there was no wait time for the call (it was answered immdeiately) and (as I understand it from our techies) the de-register process is done by computer not by title so it's very hassle-free.

Steve


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## Steve Wieck (Jun 15, 2004)

*Baen Model*

On some forums and this thread, people have mentioned Baen's program for free and also subscription based (unsecured) e-Books as evidence of the positive impact the superdistribution of pirated or free product can have on publicity and thereby sales.

In my opinion, yes this can be a very valid business model but only in the short term. Unlike music, books still benefit from their non-digital versions (print books) being more appealing in some important ways to most readers vs. their electronic versions.

When (not if) that changes, that business model dies because then the superdistribution of digital copies no longer leads to increased printed sales, it merely puts the now preferred format (electronic) into readers' hands.

And when is not so very far away, for example:

http://www.eink.com/graphical/index.html

Steve


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## 2WS-Steve (Jun 15, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> Per questions early in the thread:
> 
> While I'm sure some experiences will vary, when we've tested the call in to Adobe to de-register computers on an account there was no wait time for the call (it was answered immdeiately) and (as I understand it from our techies) the de-register process is done by computer not by title so it's very hassle-free.
> 
> Steve




Thanks for the update. That's significantly less hassle than I was worried about.

I'm confidant that electronic delivery of books can do a lot to help the bottom line of companies and give customers access to the unique stuff out there that's too often hard to find in a local gaming store. 

I suspect that PDFs are the new evergreen products, given that even my rather minor, DM focused and non-mainstream book released as a PDF nearly two years ago has averaged 3 sales per month since January. I can only imagine that companies with a higher profile and more marketable products do substantially better than that.

I just hope that the technology can continue to develop in such a way as to make both the customers and publishers comfortable with using it.


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## Funksaw (Jun 16, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> On some forums and this thread, people have mentioned Baen's program for free and also subscription based (unsecured) e-Books as evidence of the positive impact the superdistribution of pirated or free product can have on publicity and thereby sales.
> 
> In my opinion, yes this can be a very valid business model but only in the short term. Unlike music, books still benefit from their non-digital versions (print books) being more appealing in some important ways to most readers vs. their electronic versions.
> 
> ...




What the _hell_ are you talking about?

First off, even if you go all-electronic, the "superdistribution" of digital copies will *still* lead to increased sales, so long as the legal product is as useful or more useful to the customer as a pirated one. The fact that you're switching from print to electronic doesn't enter into it - Adobe has known for years that pirated copies of Photoshop have driven up demand and made it a graphics standard, and their product is all-digital also.  Yes, they sell CDs, but they also sell the product to be downloaded from their website.  

Second of all, what makes you think that roleplaying print books will only be sold in electronic form in the future?  You can't expect us all to have laptops, reading PDF files on a screen while trying to play.  Sometimes you need a book.  This isn't "ludditism" - I buy PDFs from RPGnow, after all.  But if I'm traveling to my friends to play say, Exalted, it's *still* easier to carry all the books in the trunk of my car than it is to use a laptop.  I *do* print my PDFs.  

As for "e-ink" - I wouldn't buy an E-ink roleplaying game product.  E-ink will always involve some sort of computer, and computers have a tendency to crash unexpectedly.  Even Linux has kernel panics.  You spill coffee on your roleplaying game books, you're out maybe $40 - but it's much more likely that you'll still be able to use the coffee stained books.  I wouldn't rule out that E-ink would be cheaper than paper - but I also wouldn't bet my life that it would happen anytime in the next two decades.  

At the end of the day, you're trying to justify limiting today's consumers to the standards of _possible_ technologies in the future.  I'm not going to stand for that and anyone following YRO issues shouldn't have to stand for that either.


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## Conaill (Jun 16, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> I wouldn't rule out that E-ink would be cheaper than paper - but I also wouldn't bet my life that it would happen anytime in the next two decades.



Two decades is perhaps a little pessimistic. But it's definitely not going to become a serious issue within the next five years. If you're still selling hardcopies of your 5-year-old books at that point, good for you... but I wouldn't count on it! 

There's no reason to stay away from PDF's _now_, because of new technological developments that _might_ become relevant five or more years from now. Heck, if that were the case, we should all stop buying computers right now, because you *know* they will be seriously outdated five years from now!

If you agree that the "Baen" model can be a very valid business model, but only in the "short term"... well guess what, _the short term is where your profit lies_! Most rpg books will sell for only a couple of years, with the majority of sales in the first year or two (if you're lucky). If and when e-books seem to be catching up with print books, you can still stop putting out unprotected PDFs for you new products at that time. And because of the speed with which RPG books age, you only need to look ahead for a year or two, *not* 5 years to two decades...


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## Brown Jenkin (Jun 16, 2004)

New from the DTRPG site



			
				DTRPG FAQ said:
			
		

> Can I take my eBooks to a print store and get them printed?
> 
> Yes, though the process for this may vary from one print shop to the next -- in some cases, you may need to activate your DRM account on the computer in question. One popular print store is Kinko's, and the following is a list of instructions for printing your books there if you are using a PC.
> 
> ...




I find it somewhat amusing that the solution they came up with is remarkably similar to how to crack the DRM (especialy for the Mac) and have a regular PDF to use and take to be printed. I would even argue it is easier to crack the Windows PDF than it is to get it ready for print the recomended way.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 16, 2004)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> As it is, many publishers are sitting on a lot of fairly valuable intellectual property that they can't move because they can't justify another print run....




Well in that case it isn't as 'valuable' as they think.


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## DaveMage (Jun 16, 2004)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Well in that case it isn't as 'valuable' as they think.




Heh.  Nice shot, Bagpuss...


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## Adlon (Jun 16, 2004)

Something interesting, as I was doing some research.....

A whois on the domain, drivethrurpg.com, yields the following:
---------
Registrant:
DriveThruRPG.com
ATTN: DRIVETHRURPG.COM
c/o Network Solutions
P.O. Box 447
Herndon, VA.  20172-0447

   Domain Name: DRIVETHRURPG.COM

   Administrative Contact:
      McDonough, Chris          av8244jt4t8@networksolutionsprivateregistration.com
      ATTN: DRIVETHRURPG.COM
      c/o Network Solutions
      P.O. Box 447
      Herndon, VA 20172-0447
      570-708-8780

   Technical Contact:
      Network Solutions, LLC.  (HOST-ORG)               customerservice@networksolutions.com
      13200 Woodland Park Drive
      Herndon, VA 20171-3025
      US
      1-888-642-9675 fax: 571-434-4620

   Record expires on 24-Feb-2007.
   Record created on 24-Feb-2004.
   Database last updated on 16-Jun-2004 09:55:11 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   Z1.NS.NYC1.GLOBIX.NET        209.10.66.55
   Z1.NS.SJC1.GLOBIX.NET        209.10.34.55
-------

In other words, no direct contact info, if, in the event, one might want to contact the officers of this company DIRECTLY.

So, we do this: a whois on Swordsorcery.com, just for kicks.....
-------
Registrant:
White Wolf, Inc. (SWORDSORCERY-DOM)
   1554 Litton Dr.
   Stone Mountain, GA 30083
   US

   Domain Name: SWORDSORCERY.COM

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
      McDonough, Chris  (CM979)         chriskid@AOL.COM
      White Wolf, Inc.
      780 PARK NORTH BLVD STE 100
      CLARKSTON, GA 30021-1900
      US
      404 282-1819 x218

   Record expires on 17-Aug-2006.
   Record created on 17-Aug-2000.
   Database last updated on 16-Jun-2004 09:56:52 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   Z1.NS.NYC1.GLOBIX.NET        209.10.66.55
   Z1.NS.SJC1.GLOBIX.NET        209.10.34.55
------


Hmm, well, I'll ping both, and see what comes up:

PING swordsorcery.com (206.65.59.3): 56 data bytes
ICMP must be blocked, as I got no ping response. Good job, S&S net admin 

PING drivethrurpg.com (206.65.59.208): 56 data bytes
Same: NO ICMP response. Same class C as S&S.

PING white-wolf.com (206.65.59.5): 56 data bytes
Again, no ICMP response.

Note, all 3 are on the same subnet.

Ok, well, as a comparison, I did this:

whois rpgnow.com:
-------
Registrant:
Development Corp., Minion (RPGNOW5-DOM)
   s 74 w 17065 janesville r
   #165
   muskego, WI 53150
   US

   Domain Name: RPGNOW.COM

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
      Development Corp., Minion  (36316929P)            contact@rpgnow.com
      s 74 w 17065 janesville r
      #165
      muskego, WI 53150
      US
      2626798132

   Record expires on 03-May-2008.
   Record created on 03-May-2000.
   Database last updated on 16-Jun-2004 10:01:45 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS1.RACKSHACK.NET            207.218.223.132
   NS2.RACKSHACK.NET            207.218.223.162
-------
This give me a corporation name. I see they're in Wisconsin, so, I go to:
http://www.wdfi.org/corporations/crispix/default.asp

I do a search for Minion Development: I get .....:
-------
MINION DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION
ID: M041607
Effective Date: 09/30/1992
Record Type: Domestic Business
Status: Restored to Good Standing
Status Date: 08/20/2002
Annual Report Locator #: Year 2003, Reel 111, Image 1111
Period Of Existence: PER

Registered Agent Office
Registered Agent: JAMES MATHE
Registered Office Address: 

W196S8470 PLUM CREEK BLVD
MUSKEGO, WI 53150
Principal Office Address
Attention: 
Address: 

W196S8470 PLUM CREEK BLVD
MUSKEGO, WI 53150
-------

I GOT a name, and an address. Someone to talk to, or yell at. I do NOT have that availability with DTRPG. I get to mail issues to a 3rd party. No corporate entity in Georgia, with the name Drivethrurpg.com, that I was able to find.

Heres the Ga. Dept of Corp. link, for those who ay want to try:
http://www.sos.state.ga.us/corporations/corpsearch.htm

I MUST add that White Wolf came up fine.


So, my main concern, is, IF something goes awry, with an order, payment/debit through my PP acount, WHO do I get to discuss this with on an immediate basis. I see Mr. Wieck, who has professed to be working with DTRPG, so, am I to assume that he is the contact person? I cant find out anything more on the company.

I have yet to buy a single PDF. I'm a hard copy type of guy.
BUT, if I WAS to buy a PDF, I'd want to know about the vendor. At RPGNow, I can easily find out who's running the show. If RPGNow should for some reason, make me feel scammed, or ripped off (very unlikely, as James is good people, with an excellent track record), I have recourse, even to his home state's dept. of corporations, and their corporation compliance area.

Why, then, is DTRPG's corporate backbone so hidden?

Again, I could care less. I'm not a PDF guy. Just thought I'd share this research with the rest of you.


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## LeaderDesslok (Jun 16, 2004)

Steve Wieck said:
			
		

> LeaderDesslok said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, I recieved an e-mail from tech support about an hour after my post, and their solution was right on the money the first time.  Nice to see they're on the ball!


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