# An Open Letter to Fantasy Flight and Cubicle 7 -- Cut the "Foreplay" and Give Us the Good Stuff



## innerdude (Jul 19, 2013)

Dear Esteemed Designers at Cubicle 7 and Fantasy Flight Games,

Hello! I'm very happy to report that I am a proud owner of products in several of your product lines. I have greatly enjoyed using them, and am very happy with my purchases to date. 

But when Edge of the Empire was released a few weeks ago, and support for Jedi character concepts were only conceived in vague hints and allusions to future products, something inside of me snapped. 

See, I totally get that you're in business to make money, and making money means producing products that people will buy. If you don't sell products, you don't stay in business. Thus, on the surface it seems to make sense that if you have people that are "fans" of your games, they'll buy the products you put out for them. Thus, why shouldn't you, Fantasy Flight, delay the inclusion of Jedi character building mechanics in the third or fourth boxed set for Edge of the Empire? 

This is very much the same tactic Cubicle 7 seems to be taking with The One Ring product line. _Edge of the Wild _was a FANTASTIC release, and I love the system and the cultures included with it. But little did I know that the rest of the core stuff, the stuff EVERY LIVING BREATHING TOLKIEN FAN WANTS TO HAVE IN THEIR RPG, wasn't going to come out for another three years, if ever. 

Look Cubicle 7, it's pretty simple---give us the cultures for the Men of Rohan, Gondor, and the High Elves / Noldor, and give us adventures in the places we want to adventure--Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Edoras, Helm's Deep. Why are you dragging this out? Yeah, the proposed stuff for Rivendell seems okay, I guess. But believe me when I tell you, we . . . want . . . to . . . play . . . in . . . Gondor . . . and Rohan. We want to wander the forests of Beleriand as high elves, and fight battles against Melkor as Feanor. 

Quit messing with us, your customers, and give us what we want. 

You too, Fantasy Flight. This is mother-friggin' STAR WARS. STAR WARS = JEDI. Yeah, the whole Han Solo / rogue scoundrel / Hutt-evading-smuggler thing has some appeal. 

But we want light sabers. And deflecting laser bolts back at stormtroopers. And cutting off people's hands in space cantinas. WE WANT JEDI. QUIT MESSING AROUND WITH THIS WHOLE, "Oh, we'll get to the Jedi in some expansion in 2018, you know, if we feel like it." 

I was all excited about the potential of Edge of the Empire . . . until I found out I was going to have to wait four years and spend another $150+ to get CONTENT THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE FIRST BLOODY BOOK. 

There's way too much competition now. If you string your customers along, we'll move on to other interests. Or decide to just go with one of the earlier versions of the Star Wars RPG that, you know, ACTUALLY HAS JEDI IN THE FIRST PLACE. 

So, in conclusion, Cubicle 7 and Fantasy Flight -- Cut the foreplay and give us the good stuff.

Sincerely a gamer more than willing to give you money for stuff I actually want,

-Innerdude


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## Crothian (Jul 19, 2013)

I agree.  The more I see from Edge of the Empire the less it looks like a Star Wars game.  It is another version of Traveler or Firefly or even Ashen Stars.  I'm really surprised on how much that is Star Wars from the movies is not in this book.


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## darjr (Jul 19, 2013)

I have to agree. I very much don't like this tactic. I originally thought it was a great idea with 40k, now, after trying to put some games together that had different aspects of a couple of them, not so much. Not to mention that, in part, the attempt at 'compatibility' left a couple of the games with a rules system that wasn't quite suited to it's subject material. I also felt like I was buying the DMG and the Players handbook over and over again with each 'setting' book.


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## Super Pony (Jul 19, 2013)

I'm part of the group of Star Wars fans that actually likes what FFG is doing and feels that Edge of the Empire is plenty Star Wars-y.  Each to their own I suppose.  Play the version you like and have at it


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## Morrus (Jul 19, 2013)

I don't want Jedi.  I think Star Wars is worse when hundreds of Jedi are running around waving purple lightsabers.


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## darjr (Jul 19, 2013)

I can't help but feel that a Star Wars game without support for Jedi PC's is like a a Dr. Who rpg without any support for Time Lord PCs. I get playing without them, or without them being PC's even. But I want to play something like episode 4-6, to me that means possible Jedi PC's.


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## Morrus (Jul 19, 2013)

darjr said:


> I can't help but feel that a Star Wars game without support for Jedi PC's is like a a Dr. Who rpg without any support for Time Lord PCs. I get playing without them, or without them being PC's even. But I want to play something like episode 4-6, to me that means possible Jedi PC's.




Well, there's one Jedi PC in IV-VI: Luke.  Vader, the Emperor and Yoda aren't PCs.  But the whole _point_ of Luke is that he's the only one.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 20, 2013)

Yeah do you really need Jedi rules when in the era the game is set there are only three in existence (all of them NPCs) and two of them die in that time.

If the game was set in Episode 1 or during the Clone Wars, or once the New Jedi Order is established then, yes you would expect and need Jedi support.


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## JeffB (Jul 20, 2013)

innerdude said:


> Dear Esteemed Designers at Cubicle 7 and Fantasy Flight Games,
> 
> Hello! I'm very happy to report that I am a proud owner of products in several of your product lines. I have greatly enjoyed using them, and am very happy with my purchases to date.
> 
> ...





Preach it.

I have owned every incarnation of Star Wars and LotR RPGs since inception. I have refused to purchase either of these new games. It is one thing to offer a basic product with later expansion. But to carve the products up like C7, and FFG are doing? No thanks.


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## Crothian (Jul 20, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Well, there's one Jedi PC in IV-VI: Luke.  Vader, the Emperor and Yoda aren't PCs.  But the whole _point_ of Luke is that he's the only one.




No, there are zero.  They are movies not an RPG game.  If it was an RPG game why couldn't Obi-Wan Kenobi be a PC?  PCs do die in campaigns.  They also can have complex histories and train other PCs.  Vader and the Emperor is the only one I would say can't be a PC because they are the bad guys.  Yoda would be a great PC.  Sure he doesn't get as much screen time and interact with all the other characters but it would be a fun character to play for a short while.  

Edge of the Empire also brings in it seems plenty of Expanded Universe options.  Aren't there other Jedi during that time introduced?  It always seemed very silly to me to think that every Jedi was successfully hunted down and killed.  But at the end of the day it should be up to each individual group on if Jedi are in the game or not. I don't like that FFG went ahead and made the decision for me.   It doesn't just mean no PC Jedi but also not NPC Jedi or strong NPC Force users of other cultures.


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## Morrus (Jul 20, 2013)

Crothian said:


> No, there are zero.  They are movies not an RPG game.  If it was an RPG game why couldn't Obi-Wan Kenobi be a PC?  PCs do die in campaigns.  They also can have complex histories and train other PCs.  Vader and the Emperor is the only one I would say can't be a PC because they are the bad guys.  Yoda would be a great PC.  Sure he doesn't get as much screen time and interact with all the other characters but it would be a fun character to play for a short while.




You're welcome to any preferences you like for your game. I was merely pointing out that the OP was not speaking for everyone and that I, for one, am happy to see the Jedi on the back burner for a while. The fact that you feel differently isn't going to change that. 



> Edge of the Empire also brings in it seems plenty of Expanded Universe options.  Aren't there other Jedi during that time introduced?




Haven't the foggiest. I haven't read any of those books; just seen the movies. If they have lots of Jedi Drizz'ts running round waving purple and yellow lightsabers, then I guess I wouldn't like 'em too much.



> It always seemed very silly to me to think that every Jedi was successfully hunted down and killed.




Whereas I find it not silly at all, and like that very much. It makes Luke mean something. Like I said, the OP doesn't speak for everyone; some folks, like myself, like this approach.


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## Crothian (Jul 20, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Whereas I find it not silly at all, and like that very much. It makes Luke mean something. Like I said, the OP doesn't speak for everyone; some folks, like myself, like this approach.




Why isn't it better to have the option though?  You could be happy by easily saying no Jedi, I could be happy by having Jedi.  Take D&D for instance.  In the many years of 3e and now Pathfinder I have never seen a Barbarian played at our table in any campaign.  That doesn't mean I'd be having if they were not in the books at all.  It is great that they are there for the people that want them but for groups like the ones I have had that never used the class we can do that too.  Everyone is happy.


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## Morrus (Jul 20, 2013)

Crothian said:


> Why isn't it better to have the option though?




That's not what I was disagreeing with. I don't object to you having stuff you want. As I said, I merely state that the OP doesn't speak for everyone, and I, for one, like the product line.

(Though given a given page count, adding options means reducing other content, so it's not quite the same).


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## VictorC (Jul 20, 2013)

Crothian said:


> ...why couldn't Obi-Wan Kenobi be a PC?...




You understand asking this question in the context of "A New Hope" would be like asking your Forgotten Realms DM why you can't play Elminster. Yeah, why can't you play the uber-powerful character that's already mastered the mystic arts of the setting. 

Maybe that's why they split the party, you know. Sent the powerful mystic off on his own while the party (Luke, Han, Chewie and the Droids) played through the adventure.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't think many of the JEDI NOW! crowd would want very much to play in my games.  I treat Jedi like paladins in Ravenloft(D&D reference).  Every slope is slippery, and falling to the dark side is incredibly easy.  The Jedi are an order of ascetics for a reason, and players that try to go the whole EU superheroes with laser swords route will quickly find their characters being used as a GM controlled antagonist.  

As far as the new Fantasy Flight game goes...  well I have the EotE book, and I assure you that there is nothing but good stuff in there.


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## VictorC (Jul 20, 2013)

Crothian said:


> Take D&D for instance.  In the many years of 3e and now Pathfinder I have never seen a Barbarian played at our table in any campaign.  That doesn't mean I'd be having if they were not in the books at all.




This isn't the same as asking why Yoda and Obi Wan aren't playable out of the box.

You can start the game as a force user, but don't pretend the game is somehow deficient because you aren't Mace gawddamned Windu from character creation.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 20, 2013)

Want! Demand! Geek-squeek!  

The original Star Wars trilogy wasn't proliferated with Jedi - hence "Return of the Jedi" got it's name. 

The Edge of Empire is aimed clearly at running Hans Solo type narratives, which I believe is pretty popular in itself. If they didn't have Force sensitive options, the OP may have a point, but the fact is the game is being faithful to the setting where Jedi are so rare after being hunted to a point of extinction, that the people living in it think that the Force is just some "hokey religion". 

They'll make new games with different aspects in good time, but in my view the D20 versions of the Star Wars games were deeply flawed on the grounds that nobody wanted to play anything that wasn't a Jedi! And Star Wars has more to offer than that - a point that may be shown if people actually play the new game with an open mind. Star Wars doesn't have to be a power fantasy to be cool. 

In the case of The One Ring, I just think that the pace of supplements has been slower than hoped as Cubicle had to juggle a lot of other games and business issues in recent months. And lets face it, the Middle Earth setting needs a lot of detail and attention if it going to be done well. My only issue with The One Ring as it stands is that you can't play a Gandalf wizard figure in it - for reasons of canon, unfortunately. The rest of the material will come out in due course, and should not be rushed.


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## alien270 (Jul 20, 2013)

I for one really appreciate the amount of detail that was put into Edge of the Empire.  Yes, it's just the "fringer" aspect of Star Wars, but the book's nearly 450 pages!  In two years Jedi will get that same attention to detail.  But more importantly, people will have been playing the game for 2 years, and thus the designers will have a much better understanding of exactly _how_ the game works in practice, and how best to balance the Jedi.  Since they've, you know, been problematic from a balance perspective in every other incarnation of Star Wars.  

I'm all for waiting for a product if it means "getting it right."  And if I don't like how Jedi are implemented?  Whatever, I can stick to EotE and AoR (which DO have Force users in them).


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## amerigoV (Jul 20, 2013)

This sounds just like when 4e was released: "Waaah, I cannot run my LN Gnome Barbarian that loves to craft mood rings right out of the gate! Why should I have to wait to play what I want?!?!?"


Yes, I am equating Gnomes to Jedi. Like Gnomes, the only good Jedi is a dead one - and even then they are like a pesky telemarketer - you just cannot get rid of them since they are always talking to you from beyond the grave. Its especially apropos given I am listening to the Imperial March right now. Go Vader! All hail the Emperor! Long live the 501!


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 20, 2013)

You could equate Gnomes with Ewoks, quite possibly.... 

Waaah, I cannot run my Force sensitive Ewok Barbarian that loves to craft mood rings right out of the gate! Why should I have to wait to play what I want?!?!?


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## frankthedm (Jul 20, 2013)

So is this the same patters as the 40K RPGs? Escalating rulesets with the characters the bulk of the fanbase WANTS to play released dozens of books later?


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 20, 2013)

frankthedm said:


> So is this the same patters as the 40K RPGs? Escalating rulesets with the characters the bulk of the fanbase WANTS to play released dozens of books later?



Show the research that proves this is what the bulk of the fanbase wants?


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## Holy Bovine (Jul 20, 2013)

Morrus said:


> I don't want Jedi.  I think Star Wars is worse when hundreds of Jedi are running around waving purple lightsabers.




Bingo!!  We have a winner!

Lightsabers (and I can't believe I'm actually saying this) are freaking boring.  They have been boring for over a decade.  I would much rather see what life is actually like in the Star Wars universe without the damned Jedi running around.  Know what my favourite 'era' of Star Wars was?  The Marvel comic once the first movie run was finished and they got a decent writing team on the book (about issue 16 or so).  No lightsabers beyond Luke & Vader (there was some blind Baron guy but Luke sorted him out pretty quick).  *That* to me is Star Wars.  Rebels fighting a desperate war against an Empire bent on crushing them - running out of supplies, breaking blockades, planting the seeds of rebellion on key Empire planets (this really happened in the comics!  Honest!).

I really wasn't interested in Edge of the Empire before now.  Hearing that there are no Jedi in it makes me want to buy it right now!


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 20, 2013)

VictorC said:


> You understand asking this question in the context of "A New Hope" would be like asking your Forgotten Realms DM why you can't play Elminster. Yeah, why can't you play the uber-powerful character that's already mastered the mystic arts of the setting.
> 
> Maybe that's why they split the party, you know. Sent the powerful mystic off on his own while the party (Luke, Han, Chewie and the Droids) played through the adventure.




Even saying that he wasn't a powerful character in the manner of Jedi represented in the Prequel movies. He did a couple of mind tricks and showed he could handle himself in a low life bar. Beyond that, he was no different a character to that of, say Shepherd from Serenity.


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## dm4hire (Jul 20, 2013)

My only problem with C7 is that they said they were going to release three core books focused around the different time periods of the setting.  I was hoping that meant they were going to come out fairly close then pile on the expansion stuff.  Instead they are taking their sweet time cake walking between the core books which wouldn't be so bad, but they are taking forever to release products to support the current one.  I say consolidate the last two time periods and put out one more core book and then do all the splat however they want.  Give people the chance to play the characters they want now.

FFG turned me off by not including Jedi despite it being a nice looking book.  However the real downer for me was the development of special dice and then still requiring players to have regular d10s which aren't included in the special dice set.  Don't push new mechanics that require gimmicky baubles and require me to spend in addition to that.  I understand that most gamers already have d10s, I have well over a 100 of them, but the point is I'm as a GM I have to also think about the investment costs not just for myself but for my players as well.  Hidden expenses is not a pleasantry most people will like.

Give us everything or give us nothing.

As for Star Wars I'm more interested in the Dragon Age conversion that's going on.  Less dice and probably a lot better fit mechanic wise.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 20, 2013)

dm4hire said:


> FFG turned me off by not including Jedi despite it being a nice looking book.  However the real downer for me was the development of special dice and then still requiring players to have regular d10s which aren't included in the special dice set.  Don't push new mechanics that require gimmicky baubles and require me to spend in addition to that.  I understand that most gamers already have d10s, I have well over a 100 of them, but the point is I'm as a GM I have to also think about the investment costs not just for myself but for my players as well.  Hidden expenses is not a pleasantry most people will like.



The percentile dice is a bit of an overstatement. They are used as a randomiser in a couple of tables in the book, where you could just as easily choose. You don't need percentiles to play the game. That said, the big sell issue for the game will be the acceptance of the players to buy the dice.


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## dm4hire (Jul 20, 2013)

Unfortunately I don't have the book or PDF so can't quote the section on the d10s, but as I recall it stated you needed several and that more often you would use it for d100 rolls, but it implies needing more than two d10s.


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## darjr (Jul 20, 2013)

I will have, heck already have had, players that wanted to play a character like Luke from the first three movies. I'd prefer that Jedi PC's were in the first rule book. I think it was a mistake to not include them.

They are the mages of the setting.

It's a marketing/sales strategy that I don't appreciate, that's all. Making a good game with, even 'optional', Jedi PC rules would have worked better for my tastes.


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## darjr (Jul 20, 2013)

frankthedm said:


> So is this the same patters as the 40K RPGs? Escalating rulesets with the characters the bulk of the fanbase WANTS to play released dozens of books later?




Yes, I think so. For my 2 cents Death Watch was a worse game due to the strategy. It wasn't quite compatible with the other books, yet the attempt at compatibleness left a rule set that didn't quite work, in my opinion.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 20, 2013)

Well, for me Deathwatch was probably the best game in the series, so I guess it takes all sorts.


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## Lord Mhoram (Jul 20, 2013)

For me, without Jedi, Star Wars is a pretty bland generic Space Opera setting that we have lots of. It loses part of what makes it special.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 20, 2013)

...and again, for me, making Jedi a 10-a-penny occurrence in a setting where they are supposed to be rare and mysterious robs the Jedi - and the Star Wars brand - of what makes them special. George Lucas found that out the hard way.


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## innerdude (Jul 20, 2013)

Crothian said:


> But at the end of the day it should be up to each individual group on if Jedi are in the game or not. I don't like that FFG went ahead and made the decision for me.   It doesn't just mean no PC Jedi but also not NPC Jedi or strong NPC Force users of other cultures.




First, as a general note, I'm actually mainly pissed at Cubicle 7 rather than Fantasy Flight. I haven't spent a single second of my time looking at Edge of the Empire, Fantasy Flight just happened to be the touchpoint for me making my argument--namely, that I think it's very, very risky to alienate potential buyers up front. You're risking their hard-earned loyalty, which will ultimately have a much more negative effect on revenue. You're risking that you'll sell more expansions to make up for those who won't buy the core system up front. 

As far as Crothian's quote goes--This is EXACTLY my problem with the general mind set evidenced by FF and C7. It's not just about "Wah, I don't have my Precious PC build!" 

It's about being able to TELL STORIES ABOUT INTERESTING ASPECTS OF THE UNIVERSE, and not having direct mechanical support to do so. 

How is a GM, exactly, supposed to create adventures involving the Men of Rohan using the current One Ring materials? 

"Well, you just don't go there." 

Right. And the PCs will NEVER meet someone from Rohan either. Why? Well, because they can't, because the GM has no officially supported way of making one. So we're just supposed to adventure over the edge of the wild, and not go anywhere else in Middle Earth. You know. Because, like, Middle-Earth doesn't have a very interesting backstory or anything, you know, like the most voluminous written mythology in the history of fiction. And you know, the edge of the wild is totally where all of the cool stuff in Middle-Earth's past ages happened, right?

Simply put, this business model is a constraint to the kinds of stories I want to tell in these universes. My players can't adventure anywhere that doesn't have built-in mechanical support for the cultures in the One Ring. Oh sure, I can fake it. But that's really the point---why do I have to "fake it" in the first place? Oh that's right---so Cubicle 7 can try to sell me on some expansions I couldn't care less about, so they can string out their product line for however long they have to. 

I LIKE The One Ring. I like the system, I like the way it works, I like the type of playstyle it engenders. But I don't want to tell stories over the edge of the wild, I want to tell them in the places I find compelling, and with interesting "hooks."

Releasing stuff piecemeal feels manipulative, and creates a definite sense of ill will towards the companies that do it.


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## Morrus (Jul 20, 2013)

innerdude said:


> namely, that I think it's very, very risky to alienate potential buyers up front. You're risking their hard-earned loyalty, which will ultimately have a much more negative effect on revenue. You're risking that you'll sell more expansions to make up for those who won't buy the core system up front.




I, on the other hand, appreciate companies who take risks and not churn out the same thing we've already bought over and over again.

They played it safe this time, though. The didn't take the risk of including pages of Jedi material a bunch of people don't want. Consequently, I bought it (unlike Star Wars d20 which I never did) and they gained my hard earned loyalty. 

Every choice is a risk. Include something, don't include something. This particular choice works for me. They spent that valuable page space on material I want.  Excellent!


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## Morrus (Jul 20, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> Want! Demand! Geek-squeek!
> 
> The original Star Wars trilogy wasn't proliferated with Jedi - hence "Return of the Jedi" got it's name.
> 
> ...




I 100% agree! Star Wars is more interesting to me when dozens of cartoon Jedi Drizzts aren't clogging up the place and bouncing around and demanding all the attention.  Jedi are more common than bartenders! Star Wars is rich. Hutts, smugglers, storm troopers, star destroyers, Death Stars, wookies - there's so much there!

And the Jedi fans can get their own giant 400 page book, with more stuff than they can shake an army of purple bouncing muppets with a pink lightsabers at!


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## delericho (Jul 20, 2013)

For me, there are two things that a "Star Wars" RPG needs to get right: lightsaber battles (and, by extension, Jedi), and starfighter combat.

If a particular group don't want to include Jedi in their game, then that's their prerogative, but it's trivial for them to remove them from the game. It's much harder for a group to add Jedi if the rules don't support them.

And this is, by my count, the seventh distinct "Star Wars" RPG (WEG 1st Ed, 2nd Ed, and "2nd Ed Revised and Expanded", WotC SW d20, SW "Revised and Expanded", and Saga Edition). We do not need a new edition.

Now that absolutely does not mean they shouldn't make a new game. There's evidently a demand, and by all accounts they've done a good job. But, to produce a Star Wars game and then leave one of the most iconic elements of the setting unsupported? That seems... odd.

All IMO, of course.


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## Crothian (Jul 20, 2013)

VictorC said:


> This isn't the same as asking why Yoda and Obi Wan aren't playable out of the box.
> 
> You can start the game as a force user, but don't pretend the game is somehow deficient because you aren't Mace gawddamned Windu from character creation.




It is deficient.  It's not just Mace Windu you can't play, it is any Jedi.  A GM can't have them as an NPC so it's no Jedi in the setting at all.  People keep harking back to the original Trilogy as if this game was published in 1986.  It is 2013 and there is lot more to Star Wars then the original Trilogy and the game includes some of that.  It is a huge book and to make space for Jedi all they needed to do was cut the Force user non Jedi section.


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## fuzzlewump (Jul 20, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> ...and again, for me, making Jedi a 10-a-penny occurrence in a setting where they are supposed to be rare and mysterious robs the Jedi - and the Star Wars brand - of what makes them special. George Lucas found that out the hard way.



I can't buy into this or similar arguments because FFG isn't making some stand and saying Jedi aren't included as to avoid a too many Jedi problem. The Jedi are coming out. They've simply set a Mace Windu time bomb that serves only to disappoint both parties, that is, the people who don't want Jedi and would be upset at their inclusion (apparently a real demographic?) and the people who think releasing a Star Wars game without Jedi is beyond any excuse.


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## MatthewJHanson (Jul 20, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> ...and again, for me, making Jedi a 10-a-penny occurrence in a setting where they are supposed to be rare and mysterious robs the Jedi - and the Star Wars brand - of what makes them special. George Lucas found that out the hard way.




You mean the way that made him buckets full of money? 

Say what you want about midi-chlorians, from a business perspective they were extremely successful, and the I'm guessing that most everybody reading this thread has paid money to see them in one way or another.

And FFG is making business decisions too. They're very good at managing licensed properties, and they know what they're doing. I'm guessing they know that individual books get fewer customers as the line progresses, so they're saving the big guns last. (In other words if they released Jedi first and Scoundrels second, they'd sell a lot less of the Scoundrels book than the way their doing it.)

And since it is a business decisions, if you don't like it, the best thing you can do is vote with your wallet.


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## Morrus (Jul 20, 2013)

MatthewJHanson said:


> You mean the way that made him buckets full of money?




Actually, he's on record as being really upset how the fans reacted to the prequels, and that being the driving reason behind him getting out of it.  He _did_ find out the hard way; the end result was not what he wanted. He feels he was forced out of his own toybox.



> *George Lucas “Retires”, Blames Fans For Crushing His Spirit To Make Another Star Wars Film*
> 
> Apparently, all the bitching we do about the prequels and the changes George Lucas made to the original Star Wars films actually hits home. He’s retiring from blockbusters and vows to never make another Star Wars movie because fanboys have scared him off.
> 
> ...




You can see that here:  http://nerdapproved.com/movies/geor...ng-his-spirit-to-make-another-star-wars-film/

And there's a NYT article, too: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/m...-tails.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1&ref=global-home

He ain't happy.


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## howandwhy99 (Jul 20, 2013)

I remember playing WEG Star Wars. We had 2 types of Jedi characters. 

1. was the old and used up jedi who had spent long years in hiding and wasn't quite who he used to be. Playing the game could change that to becoming a vibrant force master perhaps with a young flock under his wing.

2. was a young know-nothing kid who was force active. He didn't even start with force powers, just potential. Playing meant becoming a full fledged Jedi Knight and fighting for peace, hope, and justice in the galaxy.

Now we played them like a bombed out drunk and a childish, whiny brat, but then it was college and Star Wars was more of our go to drinking RPG.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 20, 2013)

innerdude said:


> You're risking that you'll sell more expansions to make up for those who won't buy the core system up front.




I think that it is worth mentioning that _Age of Rebellion_ and _Force and Destiny_ are not going to be expansions of _Edge of the Empire_, but rather compatible stand alone games.  Just as EotE is FFG's "Adventure on the Fringe" game, so will AoR be a dedicated "Rebels vs Empire" game, and F&D a dedicated Jedi game.  How much difference will there be between them?  We don't know yet.  But that does mean that if all you are interested in is Jedi(and the Force Exile in EotE isn't enough for you), then you can skip out on the currently available game and use F&D all by itself.


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## Vyrolakos (Jul 20, 2013)

Part of me gets why FFG are 'withholding' Jedi, the idea of all the PC's running around with light sabers just isn't Star Wars to me (someone besotted with the original three movies and the original WEG d6 RPG rules). On the other hand, Star Wars is so much more than the original three movies now, and players expect to be able to partake of the whole saga. Which of course, is the problem. It's now so big, it's too much to cover in one rulebook.

Splitting the settings up into different product lines is an obvious choice for FFG. In some ways it makes a lot of sense, players can choose the bits they like, but it also causes massive product creep like we've seen in their WH40K line of products. That, and some people will inevitably have to wait until the book they want to see comes out, if it ever does. 

I truly sympathise with the book shelves of whoever decides to follow (purchase all) the FFG's Star Wars line.


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## Pilgrim (Jul 20, 2013)

Dear Esteemed Designers at Cubicle 7 and Fantasy Flight Games,

Hello! I'm very happy to report that I am a proud owner of products in several of your product lines. I have greatly enjoyed using them, and am very happy with my purchases to date. 

I recently purchased Edge of the Empire which was released a few weeks ago and support for Jedi character concepts were only conceived in vague hints and allusions to future products. Jedi are overrated anyhow, I look forward to checking them out in the future products, but for now, I'm content to run the shadier side of the SW Universe by playing in the Outer Rim.

Making money means producing products that people will buy. If you don't sell products, you don't stay in business. I'm glad to see that EotE has been so well received. There are some players disgruntled, claiming they should get "all of the game", but considering that you've mentioned from the start that there were going to be three separate standalone yet cross-compatible products, each focusing on a different era, their arguments are pretty much invalid. Likewise, the idea that this is somehow a marketing ploy to make more money is ridiculous, considering that no one is forcing them to buy any of the books, if they want to play Jedi then they can wait and buy Age of Rebellion or Force and Destiny. No one is making them buy EotE if they don't want to play scoundrels and villains in the Outer Rim. I on the other hand love the idea and can't wait to kick off a seedier campaign in the SW Universe.

Cubicle 7 seems to be taking a similar approach with The One Ring product line. _Edge of the Wild _was a FANTASTIC release, and I love the system and the cultures included with it. Like FFG, I knew that the rest of the core stuff, wasn't going to come out for another three years, this was made quite clear from the start of the game's design. Once again, some people hate the idea that they don't get "all of the game" right away, but once again, no one is twisting their arm to buy the products until they are available.

Look Cubicle 7, it's pretty simple---you have given us a core product from which to start. While I look forward to expanding into areas throughout Middle-earth, the cultures, locales and adventures you have given us to start are fantastic. I like the approach that you are taking in that great detail is going into each product that you are publishing, instead of trying to cram a little bit of everything into one book. I appreciate you spreading this out. Yeah, the proposed stuff for Rivendell sounds awesome, no doubt. But believe me when I tell you, we . . . look . . . forward . to. . . playing . . . in . . . Gondor . . . and Rohan. When the products are finally available I hope to wander the forests of Beleriand as high elves, and fight battles against Melkor as Feanor. 

As your customers we appreciate what you give us and understand it takes a lot of time and effort to put out quality products. 

You too, Fantasy Flight. STAR WARS = mother-friggin' AWESOME, keep up the great work. Until Jedi are available for play, the whole Han Solo / rogue scoundrel / Hutt-evading-smuggler thing has great appeal. 

We can wait for light sabers and deflecting laser bolts back at stormtroopers. Cutting off people's hands in space cantinas, been there, done that. Once again, JEDI = OVERRATED. KEEP MESSING AROUND WITH THIS WHOLE, "Oh, we'll get to the Jedi in some expansion in 2018, you know, if we feel like it.". We have plenty of time to smuggle goods, avoid bounty hunters, strike deals with Huts, and generally try to just stay alive on the fringe of society.

I'm way excited about the potential of Edge of the Empire. I also like the idea that by the time we're tired of running around the Outer Rum, in four years I can get YET ANOTHER ERA OF FRESH AWESOME SW GOODNESS THAT WASN'T IN THE FIRST BLOODY BOOK. 

Since there isn't any other SW RPG material on the market, there really isn't any competition now. With such great products we'll be hard pressed to move on to other interests or go with one of the earlier versions of the Star Wars RPG. 

So, in conclusion, Cubicle 7 and Fantasy Flight -- keep up the good work and keep giving us the great quality product, even if others don't see it that way.

Sincerely a gamer more than willing to give you money for stuff I actually want,

-Pilgrim


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## Crothian (Jul 20, 2013)

After reading the book I can say that they have really focused on a minute section of what Star Wars and it has nothing to do with the movies.  This game is designed around the Expanded Universe of Pre New Hope.  The books about Han, and Lando, and Fett that take place before the original trilogy is what the game seems to embrace.  I am surprised by how much Expanded Universe is in here and with some people saying they like the book but don't like Expanded Universe that surprises me.  There is also stuff in here for the prequels and we know how well people like those.

Also, and this really surprised me, is that if we just use the dice sets made for the game you don't have all the kinds of dice you need.  I figured if they are going to make special dice packs that they would include everything.


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## JeffB (Jul 20, 2013)

darjr said:


> I will have, heck already have had, players that wanted to play a character like Luke from the first three movies. I'd prefer that Jedi PC's were in the first rule book. I think it was a mistake to not include them.
> 
> They are the mages of the setting.
> 
> It's a marketing/sales strategy that I don't appreciate, that's all. Making a good game with, even 'optional', Jedi PC rules would have worked better for my tastes.




Exactly. Personally I am not a fan of Jedi,at least as they have been portrayed since EP1. I am not a fan of anything prequel (though I tried for years to come to terms with them). But as a game product,  it should be included in some optional form, even if I do not want it. Unlike Gnomes and Barbarians in D&D, Jedi, no matter how few have been a major part of the property. 

And special dice suck,


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 20, 2013)

Well, this has been an interesting thread to read. I'll just add two points to what some others have said. I'm also a person who wants his Jedi as an option in any Star Wars game, even a game that is conscientiously not focused on Jedi.

The first point I would make is that most folks, like me, who want to and like to play Jedi, don't want to play them because we want to be over-powered Mace Windus compared to the rest of the party, but because we like the character possibilities and the mystique of the Jedi. It is, frankly, the same reason I like to play Wizards in D&D and monks in asian-themed games, because after all what is a Jedi but a mystical wizard-monk. I'm totally up for a system that tries to do that in a non-game breaking way. 

Second, I think if we want to consider what the problem was with the prequel trilogy, let's be honest: It wasn't "gobs of Jedi" it was "poorly written, plotted, and directed." A movie with lots of Jedi could have been done better. The fact that it wasn't is wholly attributable to George Lucas's limitations as a writer and director. It's a mistake to project that onto the game system and say, by extension, that a game with few or no Jedi (or even an option to have them), has a better chance of being fun or cool than one that doesn't. What's cool about the Jedi in Star Wars is not their rarity, it's their _existence_!


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## alien270 (Jul 20, 2013)

Crothian said:


> After reading the book I can say that they have really focused on a minute section of what Star Wars and it has nothing to do with the movies.  This game is designed around the Expanded Universe of Pre New Hope.  The books about Han, and Lando, and Fett that take place before the original trilogy is what the game seems to embrace.



Yes, there's certainly EU stuff in there.  But "nothing to do with the movies?"  ANH was _exactly_ the stuff from EotE.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 20, 2013)

There's nothing wrong with Han/Lando/Boba Fett type stories with no Force. Bu if that's the story I want to tell, I'd rather tell it in a different universe, like the Firefly universe, that's custom built for those kinds of tales.


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## Crothian (Jul 20, 2013)

alien270 said:


> Yes, there's certainly EU stuff in there.  But "nothing to do with the movies?"  ANH was _exactly_ the stuff from EotE.




No Sandpeople, no Jawas, no X-wings, no jedi, and almost nothing on the Rebels or Empire.  There isn't even a listing for the Empire in the index.  The second game sounds like it will be about the Rebels which is what Episode 4 is also about so it shouldn't be of any surprise that this books doesn't cover that.


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## alien270 (Jul 20, 2013)

Crothian said:


> No Sandpeople, no Jawas, no X-wings, no jedi, and almost nothing on the Rebels or Empire.  There isn't even a listing for the Empire in the index.  The second game sounds like it will be about the Rebels which is what Episode 4 is also about so it shouldn't be of any surprise that this books doesn't cover that.



Hmm, admittedly no Sand People in the adversaries chapter is an oversight, but Jawas probably don't need a stat block.  

I would argue that there's a LOT about the Empire in the book; a major theme is avoiding any Imperial entanglements.

Only Luke got to fly in an X-Wing, and that was only at the very end, when the saga was transitioning to the main characters' active participation in the Rebellion (well, aside from R2 and Leia, who'd been doing so the whole time).  More appropriate to cover that in Force and Destiny.

While there are no Jedi, there aren't really any in ANH either.  Obi-Wan fits the Force Sensitive Exile much better, and Luke is at the stage where he's bought the specialization, but none of the powers or talents.  

What the book DOES have is Obligation, dianogas, Corellian digger crawlers, YT-1300s, droids as PCs, etc.  Yes the book goes into a lot of detail _beyond_ the ANH, but it's supposed to.  Because most groups won't just re-enact the movies...


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## innerdude (Jul 20, 2013)

Scars Unseen said:


> I think that it is worth mentioning that _Age of Rebellion_ and _Force and Destiny_ are not going to be expansions of _Edge of the Empire_, but rather compatible stand alone games.  Just as EotE is FFG's "Adventure on the Fringe" game, so will AoR be a dedicated "Rebels vs Empire" game, and F&D a dedicated Jedi game.  How much difference will there be between them?  We don't know yet.  But that does mean that if all you are interested in is Jedi(and the Force Exile in EotE isn't enough for you), then you can skip out on the currently available game and use F&D all by itself.




So what you're really saying is that if I want a "full Star Wars experience" using FF's rules, I'm FORCED to buy all three sets. Gee, that $30 I spent on Savage Worlds deluxe and any of the dozen excellent fan mods for Star Wars is looking better all the time.

More and more it feels to me like Fantasy Flight is missing out on a substantial opportunity cost. Hearing that they're taking the same content release approach as The One Ring makes me never want to buy the game. 

Now granted, Cubicle 7 and Fantasy Flight are more than welcome to manage their business however they wish. All I know is that they've missed a dramatic opportunity to make me a die hard, loyal fan of their work through what I see as a mismanagement to their approach to releasing "core" content.


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## Remathilis (Jul 20, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Well, there's one Jedi PC in IV-VI: Luke.  Vader, the Emperor and Yoda aren't PCs.  But the whole _point_ of Luke is that he's the only one.




Having played lots of d20/WEG Star Wars, MERPs LotR and Cubicle 7's Doctor Who AITAS, I have one thought on them.

Those settings all suck for RPGs.

No, seriously, hear me out. The most special heroes (Jedi, Time Lords, Elves) are supposed to be rare enough you can count them on one hand. You have either play in past (or future) eras and have boatloads of them (Old Republic, Pre-Time War, 2nd Age) or fudge up some reason why YOUR PCs were hiding/lost/whatever. Or option three: play without timelords/jedi/elves, which IMHO ruins the point of these unique settings.


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## Morrus (Jul 20, 2013)

Remathilis said:


> Or option three: play without timelords/jedi/elves, which IMHO ruins the point of these unique settings.




As I said before, I do not accept the premise that jedi are "the point" of Star Wars.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 20, 2013)

I have a hard time understanding that. If you strip away jedi/force from Star Wars, then you strip away the single most distinctive thing about the setting/series. After all, if you take the first six movies as the center-piece of the entire SW Universe (which seems totally appropriate to me), then what you have is the story of the fall of the Jedi and their ultimate restoration, and the pivotal role played by the Skywalker family in that history.

Without Jedi, you've got a lot of elements that have been quite extensively used in other settings, and often better. Any space opera (Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Star Trek, Firefly, Babylon 5) will have most if not all of those other elements represented in some way, shape or form. And while they may play around a bit with psionics, telekenesis, or psychic powers, those things are a) usually one-off experiences, b) not extensively explored, c) rooted in some form or another of science-type handwaving, and d) not rooted in a relatively well formulated set of rituals, institutions, and spiritual practices. 

The jedi are distinct precisely because of their central role, and their explicit (until the whole midichlorian debacle) rooting in a more spiritual conception of them as extraordinary abilities. And I'll also note, that in the new movies, often the lightsaber battles were the best part (I usually fast forward past any scene involving Anakin and Amidala).

That's not to say that you can't tell stories in the star wars universe that don't involve those things, but, as I noted above, there's nothing about a story of that nature that says "Star Wars" to me. I'm perfectly happy to say that, if you want to tell those kinds of stories you should, and if you want to run those kinds of games you should. But I would hope that whatever the current system is would allow me to run a different game if I so chose. But then, I still have all my old saga edition books, and I like dthat system, so I'll be saving my money for other things, at least for the time being.


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## Remathilis (Jul 20, 2013)

Morrus said:


> As I said before, I do not accept the premise that jedi are "the point" of Star Wars.




Does it have to be the point of an RPG based in the SW universe? No... Is it "the point" of Star Wars? You bet your sweet bippie it is! 

If you go back to just the OT, the story follows the scion of a powerful Jedi who is trained by two of the best former Jedis to fight his father and his father's master (who are both evil Jedi). Along the way, he meets some colorful scoundrels (Han and Lando) and works with the rebellion to fight the Empire who is headed up by said evil Jedi. They are the defining trait of SW. Luke is our protagonist BECAUSE he is a Jedi. Jedi is central to the SW universe.

Now, can interesting tales be told without Jedi? Of course. Are they necessary to run a successful game? Not really. Are they an important enough part of the mythos that they should have been there from the get go? Very much so. 



Remus Lupin said:


> I have a hard time understanding that. If you strip away jedi/force from Star Wars, then you strip away the single most distinctive thing about the setting/series. After all, if you take the first six movies as the center-piece of the entire SW Universe (which seems totally appropriate to me), then what you have is the story of the fall of the Jedi and their ultimate restoration, and the pivotal role played by the Skywalker family in that history.
> 
> Without Jedi, you've got a lot of elements that have been quite extensively used in other settings, and often better. Any space opera (Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Star Trek, Firefly, Babylon 5) will have most if not all of those other elements represented in some way, shape or form. And while they may play around a bit with psionics, telekenesis, or psychic powers, those things are a) usually one-off experiences, b) not extensively explored, c) rooted in some form or another of science-type handwaving, and d) not rooted in a relatively well formulated set of rituals, institutions, and spiritual practices.




What Remus said.


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## Morrus (Jul 20, 2013)

Man. All I can say is: those people who think Star Wars only has Drizzt to offer? I'm
Not on board with that opinion. 

Seriously. If you think Star Wars without bouncy Jedi with purple lightsabers is "just a generic space opera setting", you're not paying attention.  

Star Wars has a lot to offer. And FFG just proved it with a 450 page book about people without lightsabers. It's refreshing!

And, let's face it. Han was far cooler than Luke.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 21, 2013)

I'm with Morrus.  I find Star Wars to be better without Jedi.

No one needs superpowers to be cool, nor do you need superpowers to be the ultimate evil.  Epic adventures to wretched hives of scum and villainy do not require the Force, or light sabers, to be epic.


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Seriously. If you think Star Wars without bouncy Jedi with purple lightsabers is "just a generic space opera setting", you're not paying attention.
> 
> Star Wars has a lot to offer.




What unique qualities does Star Wars have that make it differ from all the other Space Opera games and settings?  As I look through the book I see unusual races and droids, odd planets, all kinds of science fiction weapons and equipment, and space ships and vehicles.  All of that is standard Space Opera with different names and different configurations.  The character options and skills are exactly what I would expect and do see in other Space Opera games.


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## Morrus (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> What unique qualities does Star Wars have that make it differ from all the other Space Opera games and settings?




Really, Chris?  Jedi is _all you got_ from Star Wars?  That's it?


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> No one needs superpowers to be cool, nor do you need superpowers to be the ultimate evil.  Epic adventures to wretched hives of scum and villainy do not require the Force, or light sabers, to be epic.




So for in this thread no one has disagreed with that statement.  You aren't the only one exaggerating the claims though Morrus keeps comparing Jedi to Drizzt assuming that anyone who plays a Jedi would play it like some over the top character.  If that is the only way that Jedi get played in your games I can understand the concern and I would say the problem just might be the players and not the Jedi Concept.


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## Remathilis (Jul 21, 2013)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> I'm with Morrus.  I find Star Wars to be better without Jedi.
> 
> No one needs superpowers to be cool, nor do you need superpowers to be the ultimate evil.  Epic adventures to wretched hives of scum and villainy do not require the Force, or light sabers, to be epic.




And that's fine. That should be YOUR prerogative. If you want to run a Star Wars game as hard Sci-fi with no mystical underpinnings, be my guest. However, the OPTION to run using Jedi is a very core principle to the Star Wars universe, so it should be included in the core rules offering of a Star Wars RPG...

Let me put it another way...

"Lord of the Rings is about the success of mankind over evil. As such, we are not including rules for Elves, Dwarves, or Hobbits in the core book. You will need to buy the _Rivendell, Mines of Moria, & Shire_ sourcebooks to play them."

"The success of Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures has shown you don't need time travel to be a successful Doctor Who spinoff, so we have opted to put Timelords/Tardises/Time travel in the _Lords of __Gallifrey_ sourcebook."

"Magic is a complex and personal part of D&D, so we are not including any spellcasters in the _Player's Handbook_. You can roll up Fighters, Rogues, Warlords, Monks, Barbarians and Rangers in the core book, and then get _Tome of Magic_ to get access to Wizards, Sorcerers, Warlocks and Swordmages and _Defenders of the Faith_ for Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Crusaders, and Avengers."

"Since the art of Decking is a complex element of Shadowrun, we've removed Deckers from the core rules. Those interested in this class should buy the new _Deckers_ sourcebook coming out next year."


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Really, Chris?  Jedi is _all you got_ from Star Wars?  That's it?




No and that isn't even close to what I am saying. Star Wars has a lot of other elements but those things are common in other Space Opera books, TV Shows, and movies.  George Lucas borrowed ideas from a lot of different places with Jedi being his most original idea.  Remove the Jedi from Star Wars and you get typical Space Opera setting which can be still awesome like Firefly is awesome.  The Jedi idea is what really sets it apart.  I don't see people making a religion based off of Han Solo.


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## Morrus (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> Remove the Jedi from Star Wars and you get typical Space Opera setting which can be still awesome like Firefly is awesome.  The Jedi idea is what really sets it apart.




Really, Chris?  Jedi is _all you got_ from Star Wars?  That's it?

/dejavu


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## Remathilis (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Really, Chris?  Jedi is _all you got_ from Star Wars?  That's it?
> 
> /dejavu




Well, lets see...

I really liked the whole "small group of rebels vs. the Empire" thing. I loved the space battles between the X-Wings and TIE fighters, the menace of the Death Star, the imperial politics of the Moffs, and the legions of soulless Storm Troopers ready to destroy the rebellion. 

However, it appears I can't play that game with EotE, since Star Wars isn't about the Rebellion or the Empire.


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Really, Chris?  Jedi is _all you got_ from Star Wars?  That's it?
> 
> /dejavu




If you feel that there are other elements of Star Wars that separate it from Space Opera then please answer my question and point them out.  Asking the same question over and over again clearly isn't working.


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## Morrus (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> If you feel that there are other elements of Star Wars that separate it from Space Opera then please answer my question and point them out.  Asking the same question over and over again clearly isn't working.




I have, in earlier posts.  Hutts, smugglers, bounty hunters, rancor monsters, stormtroopers, clones, podracers, speeder bikes, etc.  A vivid and colourful setting full of adventure. All wonderful stuff! 

The fact that you asked that question makes me sad. Do you honestly need me to point out the gorgeous, rich tapestry there that isn't Jedi?  Is it really all just typical space opera for you without Jedi?  The Jedi, for me, are the weakest part; the boring Drizzt part. The easy ninja part.

(Other than the fact that Star Wars helped to define space opera).

I assure you that Drizzt isn't the unique thing about Star Wars!


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## alien270 (Jul 21, 2013)

At the risk of making a very generalized statement, I just realized how funny it is that so many Star Wars fans are eager to disown the prequels, and yet get so upset about the exclusion of full-on Jedi Knights from a game about the OT.

Seriously, the Force Sensitive Exile describes every single non-Sith Force user in the OT.  Not sure how many of the "I want Jedi!" crowd have actually looked through or played the game, but the Force Sensitive Exile can do a LOT.  It costs a ton of XP, but anything except Force Lightning is doable with the existing powers.  Heck, a lot of the prequel/EU stuff can be done, too.  The biggest handicap that the FSE has is the lack of a Lightsaber skill, as well as the prohibitive cost of lightsabers.  The lightsaber stats are still there, though, and the book flat out says that GMs can opt to giving PCs a Lightsaber skill.

Looking at the lightsaber battles in the OT, though, I'm not convinced that Luke even HAD training.  Obi-Wan died before he could teach him to be anything more than "good against remotes."  Yoda didn't even have a lightsaber, so sparring was out of the question.  Sure, Luke's growing connection with the Force made him more effective than any old schmuck with a lightsaber, but in EotE mechanical terms that's probably the result of the the "combat-reflexes" chain of upgrades to the Sense power, and perhaps the Superior Reflexes and/or Sixth Sense Talents.  

You could totally build Luke with EotE, and even what we saw of Obi-Wan from the OT.  Can you really fault FFG for ignoring the prequels as much as most fans do?


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Remathilis said:


> And that's fine. That should be YOUR prerogative. If you want to run a Star Wars game as hard Sci-fi with no mystical underpinnings, be my guest. However, the OPTION to run using Jedi is a very core principle to the Star Wars universe, so it should be included in the core rules offering of a Star Wars RPG...




...except, nobody has argued this at all. Since when did mystical underpinnings equate to superpowers? In any case, The Edge of Empire has an entire chapter about the Force, and you can play Force sensitive characters. The game is not hard sci-fi in any shape or form. 

It seems hard to explain to people brought up on the Prequel movies, but it's just presenting the setting with the same tone and thematic integrity that the original Trilogy had - with Jedi being on the verge of extinction. It's an important aspect of the setting as it shows the growth of characters like Hans Solo moving beyond their initial cynicism ("there's no mystical Force that controls my destiny") into something a little more spiritual ("Luke...may the Force be with you"). 

Having super-powered Jedi bouncing all over the show just robs the setting of it's mysticism.


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## Morrus (Jul 21, 2013)

alien270 said:


> Looking at the lightsaber battles in the OT, though, I'm not convinced that Luke even HAD training.




I get what you're saying - they moved to acrobatic choreography in the prequels, which was different to the style in the OT.

For me, though - the RotJ fight between Luke and Vader is far more vivid than any other in the six movies.  When it comes down to it, good moviemaking isn't about acrobatics.  That fight has something else to it.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 21, 2013)

innerdude said:


> So what you're really saying is that if I want a "full Star Wars experience" using FF's rules, I'm FORCED to buy all three sets. Gee, that $30 I spent on Savage Worlds deluxe and any of the dozen excellent fan mods for Star Wars is looking better all the time.
> 
> More and more it feels to me like Fantasy Flight is missing out on a substantial opportunity cost. Hearing that they're taking the same content release approach as The One Ring makes me never want to buy the game.
> 
> Now granted, Cubicle 7 and Fantasy Flight are more than welcome to manage their business however they wish. All I know is that they've missed a dramatic opportunity to make me a die hard, loyal fan of their work through what I see as a mismanagement to their approach to releasing "core" content.




Allow me to describe a game that is designed to handle Magic wielding knights with laser swords, gun toting thieves, and soldiers and pilots warring over the fate of a galaxy within the span of a single book:  *generic*.  The WotC games had little going for it other than a well known core mechanic and the Star Wars license.  D20 is just plain _bad_ at emulating Star Wars(or, in my opinion, anything other than D&D's own unique spin on fantasy without severe tweaking).  And as much as people like to wax nostalgic over the WEG version of the game, EotE seems to be better at emulating the specific slice of Star Wars that it focuses on.  That's what happens when you devote and entire 400+ page book to a game focused on a style of play rather than looking at every possible style of play and trying to cram it all into a single game.

Frankly, we're talking quality vs quantity, and EotE's got quality in spades.  I'm actually more interested in Age of Rebellion, personally, but EotE has me confident that FFG is taking the time to do things right, and I am fully expecting AoR to be the best Rebels vs Empire game out there when it does come out.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

MatthewJHanson said:


> You mean the way that made him buckets full of money?
> 
> Say what you want about midi-chlorians, from a business perspective they were extremely successful, and the I'm guessing that most everybody reading this thread has paid money to see them in one way or another.
> 
> ...




In the aftermath of The Phantom Menace, the Star Wars brand (in terms of toys, games, etc) plummeted in sales. They recovered a little as the other films were released, but they never recovered the universal appeal of the original Trilogy. The reality is that the Prequels generated a few new vocal fans, but the overall impact was a loss. 

One could make an analogy to a certain edition of a certain fantasy RPG, but I won't do that....


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## Remathilis (Jul 21, 2013)

alien270 said:


> At the risk of making a very generalized statement, I just realized how funny it is that so many Star Wars fans are eager to disown the prequels, and yet get so upset about the exclusion of full-on Jedi Knights from a game about the OT.
> ... Can you really fault FFG for ignoring the prequels as much as most fans do?




The problems with the prequels typically come down to acting (Anakin/Padme's non-chemistry) or divergence from established canon (midichlorians). I can't even fault them for the childish humor because there is horrible moments of that in the OT. However, it did establish some awesome elements as well: Jedi in their prime. podracing. the Separatists. the Clone Wars. Battle Droids. Dozens of amazing new alien species. The fleshing out of the Sith (and hell, even that name having real meaning in the movies). Order 66. Wookiee land battles. There are a lot of things in the PT I'd hate to lose.


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## Remathilis (Jul 21, 2013)

Scars Unseen said:


> Allow me to describe a game that is designed to handle Magic wielding knights with laser swords, gun toting thieves, and soldiers and pilots warring over the fate of a galaxy within the span of a single book:  *generic*.




Allow me a different word: *Complete. *Something RPG makers in the new century seems to be getting away from.


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## Morrus (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> In the aftermath of The Phantom Menace, the Star Wars brand (in terms of toys, games, etc) plummeted in sales.




That's an unusual statement!  I haven't heard that one before; could you share your source? From everything I heard in news articles and the like, Star Wars merchandise _skyrocketted_ after the prequels, and has done since.  It had a dry patch (in as much as Star Wars _can_ have a dry patch) in the decade preceding _The Phantom Menace_.

While I have many criticisms of the prequels, a lack of mechandise sales isn't one of them.


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## alien270 (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus said:


> I get what you're saying - they moved to acrobatic choreography in the prequels, which was different to the style in the OT.
> 
> For me, though - the RotJ fight between Luke and Vader is far more vivid than any other in the six movies.  When it comes down to it, good moviemaking isn't about acrobatics.  That fight has something else to it.




Oh, I absolutely agree 100%.  The RotJ fight has emotional underpinnings brought to the forefront partially because the viewer isn't _distracted_ by flashy acrobats.  But that fight also just carries a lot more weight in general.  It's a crucial moment because Luke succumbs to anger (to his advantage in the fight), composes himself to resist the lure of the dark side (unlike his father), and is ultimately about him trying to reignite that last spark of good in Anakin.  It's a VERY personal fight.

Granted the Obi-Wan/Anakin fight in RotS was personal as well, but it still didn't carry the same weight because the damage was already done.  Anakin had already fully succumbed to the dark side, and Obi-Wan was in no danger of doing so.  While Obi-Wan had to struggle with killing/defeating the best friend he had, it was still basically just a grim task that had to be done, with no real chance at redemption for Anakin (you know, aside from the fact that Obi-Wan left him for dead, allowing his son to redeem him 20 years later).  

Heck, I enjoy the Cloud City fight more than most of the prequel fights, if nothing else than because the lighting in that scene was used to incredible effect.



Scars Unseen said:


> Allow me to describe a game that is designed to handle Magic wielding knights with laser swords, gun toting thieves, and soldiers and pilots warring over the fate of a galaxy within the span of a single book: *generic*. The WotC games had little going for it other than a well known core mechanic and the Star Wars license. D20 is just plain _bad_ at emulating Star Wars(or, in my opinion, anything other than D&D's own unique spin on fantasy without severe tweaking). And as much as people like to wax nostalgic over the WEG version of the game, EotE seems to be better at emulating the specific slice of Star Wars that it focuses on. That's what happens when you devote and entire 400+ page book to a game focused on a style of play rather than looking at every possible style of play and trying to cram it all into a single game.
> 
> Frankly, we're talking quality vs quantity, and EotE's got quality in spades. I'm actually more interested in Age of Rebellion, personally, but EotE has me confident that FFG is taking the time to do things right, and I am fully expecting AoR to be the best Rebels vs Empire game out there when it does come out.




+1

Actually, it just so happens that I never bought a single Saga book because, upon looking through it, it was just too similar to D&D and wasn't a very good expression of the Star Wars universe.  EotE, partial though it might be, succeeds very well in that department (in my opinion).


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> No and that isn't even close to what I am saying. Star Wars has a lot of other elements but those things are common in other Space Opera books, TV Shows, and movies.  George Lucas borrowed ideas from a lot of different places with Jedi being his most original idea.  Remove the Jedi from Star Wars and you get typical Space Opera setting which can be still awesome like Firefly is awesome.  The Jedi idea is what really sets it apart.  I don't see people making a religion based off of Han Solo.




On the other hand, what happens when you add the Jedi?  You have a space opera plus a few Errol Flynn action sequences and a bit of hand waving.  Or game breaking super powers.  Depends on whether the game is aiming for Lucas' Jedi or Troy Denning's.  Either way, it's really nothing original.  But then very little is.

Now here's the thing I don't get.  FFG isn't cutting out the Jedi.  They are merely taking the time and page space necessary to do the job right, rather than pushing out a bog standard all encompassing RPG whose only stand-out feature is that it is licensed.  If you want a generic game system that has the word "Jedi" pasted in it, you already have that.  It's called Saga Edition.  Why would anyone want FFG to water down the game design just so that it can do what other existing games do just as badly as the existing games do them?  

The Jedi are coming.  Rebels vs Empire is coming.  EotE has me convinced that they will be amazing when they get here.  I'm willing to wait for amazing.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus, apparently the only scenes you ever saw of Jedi in Star Wars were those featuring Mace Windu. And if that's the case, I guess I can see your perspective. But if you've seen all six movies in their entirety and you _don't_ think that the Jedi are a) not all about Drizzt with Purple Light Sabers b) deeply rooted in an interesting amalgam of the warrior/monk archetype and c) really the only genuinely distinctive thing that Star Wars has that other Space Operas don't, then I think you've missed out on most of what's interesting about the Jedi.

But since you're so insistent that there is more to Star Wars then that which is unique, by all means, I'd like to hear it.

EDIT: Ah, I see you answered it above. And again I'll note that _all of those things are great_, but really, most have an established placed in prior Space Opera (which Star Wars totally didn't establish, but did update). I mean, the Rancor? The Rancor is awesome, but just another variety on "giant ravenous monster." X-Wings, Tie Fighters? Just variants on "space ship battle" combined with WWII flying ace movie. Those are all cool and interesting, but not distinct.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

Scars Unseen said:


> Now here's the thing I don't get.  FFG isn't cutting out the Jedi.  They are merely taking the time and page space necessary to do the job right, rather than pushing out a bog standard all encompassing RPG whose only stand-out feature is that it is licensed.  If you want a generic game system that has the word "Jedi" pasted in it, you already have that.  It's called Saga Edition.  Why would anyone want FFG to water down the game design just so that it can do what other existing games do just as badly as the existing games do them?




Well, here again, we have a difference of opinion. _Without_ the Jedi, the setting is absolutely generic. _With_ the Jedi, it's Star Wars. And you're right, very little is original, but if anything in Star Wars was, it was the idea of bringing the warrior/monk archetype and planting it right at the heart of a science-fiction mythos. To a lesser extent, I guess I'd grant the starfighter battles. But that's subsidiary from my perspective.

And as for the only distinction being "this is licensed," I understand the purpose of the license to say "You can play in this universe." If I want to play in that universe, though, i want to play the kind of game I want in that universe. But you are certainly right, the saga edition meets my needs quite well. It's just a pity I can't get on board with how FF is approaching it, as I'm generally positively inclined to their products.


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## Morrus (Jul 21, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> _Without_ the Jedi, the setting is absolutely generic. _With_ the Jedi, it's Star Wars.




Statements like this make me so very sad.


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## dm4hire (Jul 21, 2013)

I'm beginning to think that the real issue of this debate is we are diverse in our appreciation of not just Star Wars, but what constitutes a RPG for it.  FFG and C7 have chosen to take an approach to the venue that unfortunately doesn't appeal to some of us, mainly I think because not only do we have the movies to compare material to but actual game systems as well.  If FFG were releasing this with no previous system out there I think we would not be discussing this, at least to this extent, as to what should and shouldn't be included.

As for C7, they have finally hit the nail on the head in most people’s eyes as far as defining a system that works with ME and all of Tolkien.  More often than not most people weren't satisfied with the past incarnations of systems used to portray the world Tolkien created which is why those games never saw wide spread success in my opinion. C7's success is also having available some remarkably talented artists who have captured the look and feel of ME that, while in the past was good, has never been so evocative.  It simply beats the last incarnation that relied heavily on movie stills.  The anguish around The One Ring is people want to play characters of races they can't, but should be able to play.


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus said:


> I have, in earlier posts.  Hutts, smugglers, bounty hunters, rancor monsters, stormtroopers, clones, podracers, speeder bikes, etc.  A vivid and colourful setting full of adventure. All wonderful stuff!




I never said the setting and the details were not great.  But Space opera has always had monsters, and bounty hunters, and evil empires and races.  I'm not asking what is great about Star Wars I'm asking what sets it apart from other Space Opera.  

I'm not saying Jedi define Star Wars or are the most important element.  I'm saying that they are part of Star Wars and I want it to be up to me to have them or not.  I don't want FFG to decide what happens in my Star Wars games.


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

Scars Unseen said:


> Now here's the thing I don't get.  FFG isn't cutting out the Jedi.  They are merely taking the time and page space necessary to do the job right.




All I know is that Jedi are coming in the third game.  I've seen nothing from FFG that says the reason they are delaying Jedi is to take the time and do it right.  So, I'd love to see your source for that.  

With the way licenses work it is possible that FFG might not get a chance to make that game.  I've talked to people at Wizards and West End Games about working with the Star Wars license and they said it could be very difficult.  There is no guarantee or promise that we will ever get Jedi.  All we have is an internet statement that for all we know could be quite optimistic.  In the RPG market there are plenty of games and books that are announced that either never happen or get changed or just drastically delayed.


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## Morrus (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> I never said the setting and the details were not great.  But Space opera has always had monsters, and bounty hunters, and evil empires and races.  I'm not asking what is great about Star Wars I'm asking what sets it apart from other Space Opera.




Well Jedi aren't it!  They're the most derivative thing about the whole setting. They're _boring_.



> I don't want FFG to decide what happens in my Star Wars games.




I can't really engage with that statement.  That's not what they're doing.  I can't even muster the energy to try to argue it, man!  

Let's just leave it at that.  I like the book, you don't.  That's cool.  I win, I guess!


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus said:


> I can't really engage with that statement.  That's not what they're doing.  I can't even muster the energy to try to argue it, man!
> 
> Let's just leave it at that.  I like the book, you don't.  That's cool.  I win, I guess!




I never said I didn't like the game.  And it what they are doing.  As a game designer you should know that what you decide to put into a game or not impacts the options that gamers have when using the game at their own gaming table.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> All I know is that Jedi are coming in the third game.  I've seen nothing from FFG that says the reason they are delaying Jedi is to take the time and do it right.  So, I'd love to see your source for that.
> 
> With the way licenses work it is possible that FFG might not get a chance to make that game.  I've talked to people at Wizards and West End Games about working with the Star Wars license and they said it could be very difficult.  There is no guarantee or promise that we will ever get Jedi.  All we have is an internet statement that for all we know could be quite optimistic.  In the RPG market there are plenty of games and books that are announced that either never happen or get changed or just drastically delayed.




My source is EotE.  The game is well designed and is very good at the specific thing it is designed for.  There are plenty of interviews and dev journals describing the process that FFG went through to make sure that EotE came out the way they wanted it to.  Are you trying to say that they would go through all that trouble for the first game only to slack off for the following two?  That doesn't stand to any sort of reason.  

As for the licensing thing...  well yeah, there is always the possibility that FFG could lose the license.  However, that has no bearing on how a company should go about designing their game.  Those are two unrelated issues.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus said:


> That's an unusual statement!  I haven't heard that one before; could you share your source? From everything I heard in news articles and the like, Star Wars merchandise _skyrocketted_ after the prequels, and has done since.  It had a dry patch (in as much as Star Wars _can_ have a dry patch) in the decade preceding _The Phantom Menace_.
> 
> While I have many criticisms of the prequels, a lack of mechandise sales isn't one of them.



I haven't got a link to provide, but I was working at the time in the industry where these things were tracked. The stock market value of the Star Wars brand dropped significantly after The Phantom Menace came out around the 2000-2001 period, then slowly started to recover after about 2002 or so - but never quite to the level that it used to be. Other brands, like Harry Potter for example, started to compete with the market in the 2000s onward.

It's hard to explain to younger people today, but the Star Wars brand from the late 70s to the end of the 90s was largely unimpeachable. Various 'Greatest Movies of all Time" charts and lists (ubiquitous in the late 90s) frequently had Star Wars as the best movie ever by a country mile. A whole generation was brought up on the movies, and would not brook any criticism of the original trilogy whatever. It created, arguably, a totally unrealistic set of expectations and hype by the time The Phantom Menace was eventually released, and led to an unprecedented level of criticism when people discovered that it - ahem - wasn't very good.

The Prequels essentially popped the Star Wars bubble.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Statements like this make me so very sad.




I'm sorry to make you sad, Morrus, but again, everything you seem to like about Star Wars has been done at least as well (and often better) by some other setting, going back decades before Star Wars.

And once more, on topic, I have no problem with you wanting to play a game without Jedi. I just don't see why FF decided to make a game called Star Wars that you could play, and I couldn't.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> I never said the setting and the details were not great.  But Space opera has always had monsters, and bounty hunters, and evil empires and races.  I'm not asking what is great about Star Wars I'm asking what sets it apart from other Space Opera.
> 
> I'm not saying Jedi define Star Wars or are the most important element.  I'm saying that they are part of Star Wars and I want it to be up to me to have them or not.  I don't want FFG to decide what happens in my Star Wars games.




I'm not sure that Space Opera, prior to Star Wars, was all that popular. If you look at most of the notable 70s sci-fi movies before Star Wars, they were mainly existential or dystopian in theme. Older pulp staples, like Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers were generally scorned in favour of high brow stories like 2001: A Space Odyssey and so on - and which Star Trek at least aspired towards too. Star Wars release in 1977 created quite a seismic shift in cinema and sci-fi tastes. To compare Star wars to generic sci-fi misses the point. Star Wars was the prototype generic sci-fi that everybody else copied after.


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## Morrus (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> what you decide to put into a game or not impacts the options that gamers have when using the game at their own gaming table.




EXACTLY!  Thank you!


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## Morrus (Jul 21, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> I'm sorry to make you sad, Morrus, but again, everything you seem to like about Star Wars has been done at least as well (and often better) by some other setting, going back decades before Star Wars.




That's an opinion.  It's fine; but it's not mine.  Pre-SW sci-fi was fairly dire, IMO, excepting some harder sci-fi from the like of Asimov.  _War of the Worlds_ was the best it got.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> I'm sorry to make you sad, Morrus, but again, everything you seem to like about Star Wars has been done at least as well (and often better) by some other setting, going back decades before Star Wars.
> 
> And once more, on topic, I have no problem with you wanting to play a game without Jedi. I just don't see why FF decided to make a game called Star Wars that you could play, and I couldn't.



They've decided to make _three_ games in total - to cover multiple aspects of the same setting - and they are all firmly reflective of Star Wars canon, even if you cannot respect that.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

Morrus said:


> That's an opinion.  It's fine; but it's not mine.  Pre-SW sci-fi was fairly dire, IMO, excepting some harder sci-fi from the like of Asimov.  _War of the Worlds_ was the best it got.




Well, as I noted, Star Wars did update those tropes. 1940s era serialized Flash Gordon looks feeble compared to Star Wars, but all of the tropes were there. I could be misremembering this, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that Lucas did Star Wars because he couldn't get a licence to do Flash Gordon, which is actually a shame in one sense, because I think he could have done it justice. And of course, both the 1970s versions of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers don't hold a candle to Star Wars.

But again, my only point is that I want you to be able to play your game and I'd like to be able to play mine. Of course, I can because I think Saga Edition does Star Wars quite well. But I would have preferred if FFG had made their version more attractive to me.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> They've decided to make _three_ games in total - to cover multiple aspects of the same setting - and they are all firmly reflective of Star Wars canon, even if you cannot respect that.




I can't say what the other two games will be. I only know about Edge of the Empire thus far. I can't comment on a game that doesn't exist.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, as I noted, Star Wars did update those tropes. 1940s era serialized Flash Gordon looks feeble compared to Star Wars, but all of the tropes were there. I could be misremembering this, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that Lucas did Star Wars because he couldn't get a licence to do Flash Gordon, which is actually a shame in one sense, because I think he could have done it justice. And of course, both the 1970s versions of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers don't hold a candle to Star Wars.
> 
> But again, my only point is that I want you to be able to play your game and I'd like to be able to play mine. Of course, I can because I think Saga Edition does Star Wars quite well. But I would have preferred if FFG had made their version more attractive to me.




The 70s/80s versions of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers were released in the wake of Star Wars success, not before. As I said previously, the old pulp style sci-fi of the 30s/40s were largely scorned at the time, in favour of more high brow 'philosophical' scifi. Star Wars' release in 1977 changed the way we viewed SciFi as entertainment.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> The 70s/80s versions of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers were released in the wake of Star Wars success, not before.




Yes, I know. I'm sorry that wasn't clear.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> I can't say what the other two games will be. I only know about Edge of the Empire thus far. I can't comment on a game that doesn't exist.



You do know what they will be about though - the second one will be about the Rebellion vs the Empire and the last one will be about Jedi vs Sith. These things will come, and I'd rather they take their time to create _quality_ products that reflect the themes of the Star Wars setting well, rather than rush through poor products simply to meet the impatient demands from certain fans.

Moreover, I actually _like_ getting a slow burn of satisfaction in the way the Star Wars games will build on each other. It's a bit like watching Game of Thrones on TV, where it ostensibly appears to be a mundane, almost historical setting at first - but slowly builds up to be more and more fantastic.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> You do know what they will be about though - the second one will be about the Rebellion vs the Empire and the last one will be about Jedi vs Sith. These things will come, and I'd rather they take their time to create _quality_ products that reflect the themes of the Star Wars setting well, rather than rush through poor products simply to meet the impatient demands from certain fans.




See, this sentiment has been stated enough in this thread to make me think that some people really have a different understanding of Wizards' run as the licencee than I do. WotC's biggest problem from my perspective, came from trying to get the game out to be in synch with the new movies and _that's_ where the rush came from. Thus we had Star Wars, then Star Wars _Revised_, neither of which, I will agree, were very good. 

But I actually thought that they hit their stride with the Saga Edition. I liked it a great deal, bought every book, and enjoyed playing it. I thought it came to a very logical conclusion at the end of its publication run and gave me, as a player, a very complete system for playing any number of different kinds of Star Wars game. It certainly wasn't perfect, but for me as a player, it gave me a very good product. And, here's the thing, Saga edition had Jedi from the start. So the idea that the alternatives are "have Jedi from the start" and "do Jedi well," just doesn't stand up from my perspective.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> See, this sentiment has been stated enough in this thread to make me think that some people really have a different understanding of Wizards' run as the licencee than I do. WotC's biggest problem from my perspective, came from trying to get the game out to be in synch with the new movies and _that's_ where the rush came from. Thus we had Star Wars, then Star Wars _Revised_, neither of which, I will agree, were very good.
> 
> But I actually thought that they hit their stride with the Saga Edition. I liked it a great deal, bought every book, and enjoyed playing it. I thought it came to a very logical conclusion at the end of its publication run and gave me, as a player, a very complete system for playing any number of different kinds of Star Wars game. It certainly wasn't perfect, but for me as a player, it gave me a very good product. And, here's the thing, Saga edition had Jedi from the start. So the idea that the alternatives are "have Jedi from the start" and "do Jedi well," just doesn't stand up from my perspective.




The problem I had with all of the D20 Star Wars games was that there was no incentive to play non-Jedi at all. Almost every game I ever tried to run had players scrambling over themselves to play Jedi, and hardly any of them played them in spiritual/ascetic ways which was how I perceived Jedi to be in the Original Trilogy. They played them like superheroes. In this respect, the D20 games were highly reflective of the Prequel movies, but poor mediums for playing tales from the Original Trilogy.

And I'll say it again, in the Original Trilogy, Jedi were so rare that most people didn't think that they existed anymore and that The Force was just hokey religion. The manner that the Edge of Empire is presenting the game world is entirely appropriate to canon - and that is not to say playing Force sensitive characters is not doable, as they are.


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## Agatheron (Jul 21, 2013)

Somewhere earlier in this thread, someone commented that Firefly was basically Star Wars without the Jedi. While that may we'll be true, Star Wars came first. Firefly was cool because it picked up on the scum and villainy vibe of Star Wars, amped up the western elements that were already there, and made something equally good.

Yet Firefly was good because it showed that lots of stories can be told in such an environment. Edge of the Empire knows this and has demonstrated it very well... Plus it does have the option for using Force-sensitives in an era where they are all in hiding. Lightsabers exist, but they are dangerous and very rare. I suspect rolling a despair result with one might end up with a self-inflicted amputation!

What I have seen with EotE is an excellent start to a building franchise. It may not have everything that people might want, but it is a complete system to itself that is also part of a larger whole. 

I would also say that truthfully, the characters created in EotE are far more likely to engage far more of the various reaches of the Star Wars galaxy than even the Rebellion or Jedi might. The sewers of Coruscant or the spice mines of the outer rim are much more likely to be locations you might find EotE characters...


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## billd91 (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> I haven't got a link to provide, but I was working at the time in the industry where these things were tracked. The stock market value of the Star Wars brand dropped significantly after The Phantom Menace came out around the 2000-2001 period, then slowly started to recover after about 2002 or so - but never quite to the level that it used to be. Other brands, like Harry Potter for example, started to compete with the market in the 2000s onward.
> 
> It's hard to explain to younger people today, but the Star Wars brand from the late 70s to the end of the 90s was largely unimpeachable. Various 'Greatest Movies of all Time" charts and lists (ubiquitous in the late 90s) frequently had Star Wars as the best movie ever by a country mile. A whole generation was brought up on the movies, and would not brook any criticism of the original trilogy whatever. It created, arguably, a totally unrealistic set of expectations and hype by the time The Phantom Menace was eventually released, and led to an unprecedented level of criticism when people discovered that it - ahem - wasn't very good.
> 
> The Prequels essentially popped the Star Wars bubble.




Pretty much. A lot of that bubble was based on over-inflated expectations. Toy makers like Hasbro assumed that Lucas could do no wrong with Star Wars (or at least not much wrong) and paid high licensing fees for the rights to crank out lots of toys, many of which never sold well. Had Phantom Menace been a better film, maybe their results would have been better - it's hard to tell  because it's still possible they would have over-saturated the market anyway. But in the end they took a battering.


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## billd91 (Jul 21, 2013)

Remathilis said:


> Allow me a different word: *Complete. *Something RPG makers in the new century seems to be getting away from.




If someone is cranking out a revised edition to a game and cuts out chunks, I'd say you have something there (4e, I'm looking at you). But in this case, we're looking at a new game system, from a company new to the IP license. So I can't really complain about the game being incomplete. I'm willing to consider their slate clean, and I'm willing to judge them on the merits of their system and the aspect of the Star Wars setting they are focusing on.


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## billd91 (Jul 21, 2013)

Remathilis said:


> The problems with the prequels typically come down to acting (Anakin/Padme's non-chemistry) or divergence from established canon (midichlorians). I can't even fault them for the childish humor because there is horrible moments of that in the OT. However, it did establish some awesome elements as well: Jedi in their prime. podracing. the Separatists. the Clone Wars. Battle Droids. Dozens of amazing new alien species. The fleshing out of the Sith (and hell, even that name having real meaning in the movies). Order 66. Wookiee land battles. There are a lot of things in the PT I'd hate to lose.




I'd sacrifice every single one of them to have had a good set of prequels. Particularly the pod racing, Jedi in their super-hero, short-sighted, swaggering prime, and the battle droids.


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## JZavoda (Jul 21, 2013)

Is there any reason that you can't just make your own rules for Jedi in this game system from FFG or Men of Rohan, etc... from the system from Cubicle 7? There is tons of source material, there are the base mechanics in both systems, why worry about anything 'official' if they aren't doing what you like and just do it yourself?


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 21, 2013)

Agatheron said:


> Somewhere earlier in this thread, someone commented that Firefly was basically Star Wars without the Jedi. While that may we'll be true, Star Wars came first. Firefly was cool because it picked up on the scum and villainy vibe of Star Wars, amped up the western elements that were already there, and made something equally good.




One could just as easily say that Firefly was a Western set in space, and that Star Wars was just a samurai movie set in space ... which it was.  There's nothing fundamentally original in the elements of Star Wars; credit is due to the originality of the combination of elements plus the special effects and cinematography the movie achieved. (Incidentally: if the folks posting in this thread have not read _The Secret History of Star Wars_, they should run out right now and do so, before even considering buying EotE.  You'll find the evolution of Jedi and the Force most interesting.)

In any case I'm still struggling to understand what all the huffing and puffing is about -- or not, if this is just the usual tasteful understated nerdrage every Star Wars discussion seems to turn in to.  EotE provides sufficient tools to play samurai (nee Jedi) for the period in question, if that's what you want.  If you consider the game incomplete because you can't play a full-on Old Republic uber-Jedi, your taste is just different -- and the game _is_ incomplete per your taste.


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

JZavoda said:


> Is there any reason that you can't just make your own rules for Jedi in this game system from FFG or Men of Rohan, etc... from the system from Cubicle 7? There is tons of source material, there are the base mechanics in both systems, why worry about anything 'official' if they aren't doing what you like and just do it yourself?




I don't want to pay $60 for a book and then sit down and do the designers job for them.  If I had that kind of time and talent I'd publish an RPG myself.  I don't so I want to pay other people to do it for me.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> I don't want to pay $60 for a book and then sit down and do the designers job for them.  If I had that kind of time and talent I'd publish an RPG myself.  I don't so I want to pay other people to do it for me.




The designers job was to create a viable and polished roleplaying game that allowed you to create a specifically authentic  type of Star Wars game that captured the feel of the original Star Wars Trilogy. They have done precisely that - and it's well worth the asking price. 

If YOU feel the need to play a power fantasy superheroes-in-spaace game, then choose whatever game system you like to do that with - there are tons out there already - and stop irritating other gamers with unabashed whinging because you don't appreciate a classy game when you see one.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> I don't want to pay $60 for a book and then sit down and do the designers job for them.  If I had that kind of time and talent I'd publish an RPG myself.  I don't so I want to pay other people to do it for me.




Reading EotE has made me never want to touch Saga Edition again, so I'd say that the designers did their job quite well.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> The problem I had with all of the D20 Star Wars games was that there was no incentive to play non-Jedi at all. Almost every game I ever tried to run had players scrambling over themselves to play Jedi, and hardly any of them played them in spiritual/ascetic ways which was how I perceived Jedi to be in the Original Trilogy. They played them like superheroes. In this respect, the D20 games were highly reflective of the Prequel movies, but poor mediums for playing tales from the Original Trilogy.
> 
> And I'll say it again, in the Original Trilogy, Jedi were so rare that most people didn't think that they existed anymore and that The Force was just hokey religion. The manner that the Edge of Empire is presenting the game world is entirely appropriate to canon - and that is not to say playing Force sensitive characters is not doable, as they are.




See this wasn't my experience as a player. As I said, I like playing Jedi as I like playing Wizards, because I dig the magical/mystical aspect of it, or in this case, the warrior-monk ethos. But in my group we had soldiers and fringers too. I guess the problem is that there are a lot of people out there who treat any system as a means of power gaming and finding ways to break the system, and I can totally see how Jedi can be viewed that way. But if your goal in playing is "realize a character concept," then if your character concept is "like Han, but with a darker back story" or "Transdoshian Bounty Hunger" or "Wookie Fringer" then that's very easily done. You can't do anything about munchkins though in any system. FFG isn't going to eliminate the munchkin problem by delaying the jedi for three years, and I'm sure that the muchkins will find ways to exploit FFGs non-jedi system as well.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> See this wasn't my experience as a player. As I said, I like playing Jedi as I like playing Wizards, because I dig the magical/mystical aspect of it, or in this case, the warrior-monk ethos. But in my group we had soldiers and fringers too. I guess the problem is that there are a lot of people out there who treat any system as a means of power gaming and finding ways to break the system, and I can totally see how Jedi can be viewed that way. But if your goal in playing is "realize a character concept," then if your character concept is "like Han, but with a darker back story" or "Transdoshian Bounty Hunger" or "Wookie Fringer" then that's very easily done. You can't do anything about munchkins though in any system. FFG isn't going to eliminate the munchkin problem by delaying the jedi for three years, and I'm sure that the muchkins will find ways to exploit FFGs non-jedi system as well.




Well, we've yet to see that eventuate. All we've seen on this thread is a handful of disgruntled fans complaining that they can't play Jedi - demanding that they should be given what they want - even though that is what the setting being emulated actually was like. That smacks of munchkinism more than anything else.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 21, 2013)

Scars Unseen said:


> Reading EotE has made me never want to touch Saga Edition again, so I'd say that the designers did their job quite well.




While I agree it's well done, I think there's room for both versions since they will still cater to different play styles, and there's something to be said for mechanical similarity between games.  For example, while I think that The One Ring did a fantastic job of replicating Tolkien, for a pickup Middle Earth game I'd still probably use the d20 system because it's just easier for me to run with it.  I find EotE's dice system to be confusing -- specifically the symbols as they modify outcomes, not the dice pool approach itself.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

Oh please: "I would like to play the character that is iconic is exemplary of what the entire setting is about" is not "I am a munchkin." This is an easy equation: People who don't want to have jedi should not be forced to have jedi, and people who want to have jedi should have the option to do so. A game system is a tool box that should allow players to inhabit the game world. Edge of the Empire fails for me on that basis, and will apparently continue to do so for an extended period of time.

I, on the contrary, have seen a handful of people who really don't understand what makes Star Wars distinctive continually mistake it for Firefly.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> Oh please: "I would like to play the character that is iconic is exemplary of what the entire setting is about" is not "I am a munchkin." This is an easy equation: People who don't want to have jedi should not be forced to have jedi, and people who want to have jedi should have the option to do so. A game system is a tool box that should allow players to inhabit the game world. Edge of the Empire fails for me on that basis, and will apparently continue to do so for an extended period of time.
> 
> I, on the contrary, have seen a handful of people who really don't understand what makes Star Wars distinctive continually mistake it for Firefly.




And I don't think that your views on what is iconically Star Wars is necessarily a universal truth. I read EotE and I read a game setting that hits the nail on the head about what is authentically and iconically Star Wars. Having ubiquitous Jedi is not it.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> And I don't think that your views on what is iconically Star Wars is necessarily a universal truth. I read EotE and I read a a game that hits the nail on the head about what is authentically and iconically Star Wars. Having ubiquitous Jedi is not it.




Yes, and the whole point of this thread is the FFG decided to make a Star Wars game that only catered to one of our sets of preference about what is iconically Star Wars, and in that regard they made a game that, from my perspective, fails on an important front.

I can't help but notice that throughout this entire thread there has been a lot of scorn and mockery heaped upon people who might want to/like to/have the option to play a jedi. I've seen no such similar scorn (I mean, absent my immediately preceding fit of snark) heaped upon those who don't want to play Jedi. I get it, you don't want Jedi. Fortunately, this game caters to you. For those of us who _do_ want to play Jedi, who want to play in the Star Wars universe, and would like to play the current system, FFG has dropped the ball. I fail to see why this opinion should meet with quite the level of negative reaction that it had, particularly repeated invocations of "Driittz with Purple Lightsaber," regardless of how any one did or could have played Jedi in the past.

If your only understanding of how the Jedi can be played is as a superhero who blows the rest of the party away, then I think you've had an impoverished experience of what Jedi can be like if played well in a SW campaign.


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

Scars Unseen said:


> Reading EotE has made me never want to touch Saga Edition again, so I'd say that the designers did their job quite well.




That would be a great point if I was coming to this from the point of view that Saga edition is the best and perfect system.  I do appreciate that you are at least not as rude TrippyHippy.  It is great that you think EotE is better then Saga and it very well may be.  I don't doubt that if my group plays this we will have fun and enjoy it.  But that doesn't mean it should be free from criticism.  It seems like that the people defending the game can't understand that I can like the game and still not find it perfect.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Yes - I am scornful of people who only see Star Wars as being about playing fully fledged Jedi. Very scornful. Immensely scornful. 

Those gamers who want to play such characters, without any of the slow, progressive character development shown by Luke Skywalker (who _did not start out_ as a Jedi), no sense of the themes of the Original Trilogy whatsoever and who simply want the opportunity to play a light-sabre wielding, kick-ass dude 'cos its the only 'iconic' thing they can relate to in the entire series - I am _entirely_ scornful of. 

So sue me.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUkCJDkG3fg


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

Yes, your scorn is evident, and I can only say: I'm sorry you've had bad experience playing with people who like to play Jedi. I'm sad for you that you haven't had better experiences with it, and I think you should be free to play a game in which that is not an option.

I on the other hand have had generally positive experiences playing Star Wars games that involved Jedi, was not in games that were overburdened with super heroic Jedi, think the Jedi can be well balanced with other party members and would like to play a game that includes them. Frankly, I think your scorn is blinding you to the fact that this is a perfectly reasonable point of view.

But frankly, it's Sunday morning, I'm drinking my coffee, and if all you have to offer is scorn, then I see no need to continue engaging you on this matter. Let me know if you'd like to put your scorn aside in order to make an actually reasonable point that acknowledges differing points of view.


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> Yes - I am scornful of people who only see Star Wars as being about playing fully fledged Jedi. Very scornful. Immensely scornful.
> 
> Those gamers who want to play such characters, without any of the slow, progressive character development shown by Luke Skywalker (who _did not start out_ as a Jedi), no sense of the themes of the Original Trilogy whatsoever and who simply want the opportunity to play a light-sabre wielding, kick-ass dude 'cos its the only 'iconic' thing they can relate to in the entire series - I am _entirely_ scornful of.
> 
> So sue me.




Who said that is what they want?  All I've seen is people that want Jedi as an option.  No one but the people on your side or the argument has said that Jedi have to be a certain way.  You keep making proclamation of munchkinism and other claims that just are not true.  

Edge of the Empire takes place prior to Episode 4.  When exactly we don't know.  During that time Jedi are rare as they are being hunted and killed.  Where would these Jedi go?  They would travel to the Unknown Space and the Galactic Rim the very setting of this game.  I think it would be great to tell some stories of Jedi in hiding that join with other criminals and refugees at the edge of space and try to survive.  How do they blend in with people that would turn them over to the Empire for the Bounty on their head.  Do they forsake the Force knowing it could lead their enemies to them?  Or do they use it to help others and try to still hold on to the code that is no one else cares about.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

Well said, Crothian, which of course means that Trippy Happy will ignore it completely and make up a completely different argument to respond to.


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## Umbran (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> Yes - I am scornful of people who only see Star Wars as being about playing fully fledged Jedi. Very scornful. Immensely scornful.





Oh?

You know we expect you to show respect of people, their playstyles, and opinions, right?  That's all part of Rule #1 of EN World - Keep it civil.

So, while you are allowed to have your own opinions, do try to keep your scorn down to a dull roar.  Thanks.

If you've got any questions on this, please drop a line to one of the moderators.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

To be honest, all I am seeing is the same complaints rotating over and over again. Hence my frustration. As far as I can see, the only reasonable solution to the issue is those people who want to play fully fledged Jedi like in the Prequels will either have to carry on playing the games they have done already - and there are loads of them - or they can wait and see what FFG have planned in the future game about them. 

What I object to, ultimately, is the tendency of complainers to present themselves as speaking for a majority view and to insinuate that the game company is either being dishonest or failing to understand their own brand and/or market. Both of which some posters have insisted on this thread. 

Beyond that, I'll remember to stick more smiley faces on my 'scornful' posts in future to signpost everybody to my use of irony.


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## Desh-Rae-Halra (Jul 21, 2013)

I am guessing that the protest of 'Everyone will be a Jedi twink, hence there should be none' probably comes from experiences with bad players or poor GMing.
I have found that there are players that are going to try to do that in *ANY GAME*. 
"I want my Halfling Paladin to dual wield flaming vorpal greatswords without following any code of conduct" 
"I want to cast Finger of Death At-Will every round"
"I want to emulate all the powers of (insert video game) right after character creation"

The last Star Wars RPG I played (maybe close to 20 years ago), the party decided they wanted to help out the Rebel Alliance by robbing Imperial Banks. Yep, the campaign totally went to Ambushes and Heists. I didnt really think it fit the Star Wars vibe, and so that was the last game. Strangely enough, that would seem completely appropriate for Edge of the Empire. 

I'm frankly kind of interested in the game, but doubt it would go over well in our gaming group, and hence would be another book to sit on the shelves. 

And if someone can verify that its possible to go blow Jar Jar Binks away, I'm buying the book and making an Assassin Droid! 

~Desh


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Desh-Rae-Halra said:


> I am guessing that the protest of 'Everyone will be a Jedi twink, hence there should be none' probably comes from experiences with bad players or poor GMing.
> ...
> The last Star Wars RPG I played (maybe close to 20 years ago), the party decided they wanted to help out the Rebel Alliance by robbing Imperial Banks. Yep, the campaign totally went to Ambushes and Heists. I didnt really think it fit the Star Wars vibe, and so that was the last game. Strangely enough, that would seem completely appropriate for Edge of the Empire.
> 
> ...



I'd imagine you'll probably get opportunities to blow Jar Jar away. Indeed, if I were FFG, I'd publish an entire scenario about it...

Anyway, it probably is worth pointing out again that there is an entire chapter on Force-using characters in the book - but true to the Original Trilogy setting, Force Sensitives are rare and persecuted. You can however, create characters that can _become_ Jedi over time. Again, this is authentic to the original source. As is the idea of playing roguish smugglers (Hans Solo and Chewbacca), bounty hunters (Boba Fett), persecuted politicos (Princess Leah), lost farm boys (Luke Skywalker) and secretive force sensitive exiles (Ben Kenobi). Characters can do and be pretty much what they were in the WEG version of Star Wars.


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## Desh-Rae-Halra (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> I'd imagine you'll probably get opportunities to blow Jar Jar away. Indeed, if I were FFG, I'd publish an entire scenario about it...
> 
> Anyway, it probably is worth pointing out again that there is an entire chapter on Force-using characters in the book - but true to the Original Trilogy setting, Force Sensitives are rare and persecuted. You can however, create characters that can _become_ Jedi over time. Again, this is authentic to the original source. As is the idea of playing roguish smugglers (Hans Solo and Chewbacca), bounty hunters (Boba Fett), persecuted politicos (Princess Leah), and secretive force sensitive exiles (Ben Kenobi). Characters can do and be pretty much what they were in the WEG version of Star Wars.




I am ok with starting out with Force Sensitive Characters, it makes sense to me that a story about a Force Sensitive should progress. If they are putting out a Jedi book later, great. 
coming from playing D&D, and then AD&D (all "1st" edition before there were "editions"), if it is not in there, feel free to use your imagination (*thats what we did before there were rules for everything*):
 -Make the power creep/advancement over time slow and steady ( and consider the character probably doesnt have a teacher). 
- Be prepared to re-tool your PC when the Jedi book comes out.
- Be prepared that if someone uses Force Lightning or Force Choke (any Overt Force Power) and anyone or any kind of surveillance system picks up on it, you're screwed. End whatever other adventure you were on, and that goes for your party members because they were sympathizers. 

I WISH FFG would do a Kill Jar Jar Binks scenario...I bet if they Kickstarted it, they could hit a $100,000 EASY. I would throw in that maybe someone cloned Jar Jar Binks, that way you get to kill him over and over!

Damn it. I might have to make a trip to the FLGS today!

~Desh


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## JZavoda (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> I don't want to pay $60 for a book and then sit down and do the designers job for them.  If I had that kind of time and talent I'd publish an RPG myself.  I don't so I want to pay other people to do it for me.




I wouldn't want to pay $60 for an RPG that didn't encourage me to use my creative imagination. Unless you play nothing but scenarios designed by someone else and use rules that are not geared to your gaming group then you are at the mercy of a game designer, who is simply another gamer who actually does use their imagination.

At some point you have to step out beyond the bounds of what someone else thinks and dreams and think and dream for your self, which I promise you is much, much more satisfying.


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## Henry (Jul 21, 2013)

A couple of points to throw out that i maybe missed:
1) star wars revenues did not diminish after episode 1 - according to 
http://www.forbes.com/2007/05/24/star-wars-revenues-tech-cx_ag_0524money.html
It made up to 15+ billion dollars as of 2007, and given box office revenues and toy revenues most of that has come in later years, not pre- 1999.
2) edge of the empire DOES have the ability to create jedi pupils just starting their paths - in an interview with company vp steve horvath, he's playing a luke type character on his hero's journey. So you can be a jedi, just only as badass as luke was in Ep. 4.
3) yes, it still sucks you cant play jedi in this game yet. That's like saying in a star trek RPG that you can play a romulan crew or a kingon scout crew - you just cant play Federation members yet until the expansion next year.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 21, 2013)

I wonder if part of the issue is that people who are upset at hearing "no Jedi" think that means "My character can't a) use the force and b) weild a lightsaber," while the people who are happy to hear "no Jedi" think that means "That other guy's character a) can't wipe out 100 clone troopers in a single attack and b) leap tall buildings in a single bound."

I actually think that's a false dichotomy, and I'm perfectly content with the idea that I could play a low-level character as long as he could use the Force and wield a lightsaber. I'm not asking to be uber-powerful, and I don't think that's what it means to play a Jedi anyway. I'd expect that a character at low levels would be relatively weak and those at high levels would be relatively strong. But if you say "no Jedi" what that says to me is "I can't play the character concept I have in my mind." If that's not the case, FFG is doing itself a disservice with the way it's marketing this material, or at least not doing a good job in responding to concerns.


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

JZavoda said:


> I wouldn't want to pay $60 for an RPG that didn't encourage me to use my creative imagination. Unless you play nothing but scenarios designed by someone else and use rules that are not geared to your gaming group then you are at the mercy of a game designer, who is simply another gamer who actually does use their imagination.
> 
> At some point you have to step out beyond the bounds of what someone else thinks and dreams and think and dream for your self, which I promise you is much, much more satisfying.




What is it with people insulting people today?  Just because I happen to have a job and other responsibilities doesn't mean I'm not creative or don't use my imagination.  It means that there are more important things in my life then gaming.  The time I do have to devote to gaming goes into the current campaign.  I'm not going to waste time designing something for a game that we might never play.  I realize that might be hard for people to believe but I have better things to do with my time then do the job I paid someone else to do.  I can repave my driveway, but I pay someone else for that and I expect when he's done that I don't have to go in there and complete the job.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 21, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> I wonder if part of the issue is that people who are upset at hearing "no Jedi" think that means "My character can't a) use the force and b) weild a lightsaber," while the people who are happy to hear "no Jedi" think that means "That other guy's character a) can't wipe out 100 clone troopers in a single attack and b) leap tall buildings in a single bound."
> 
> I actually think that's a false dichotomy, and I'm perfectly content with the idea that I could play a low-level character as long as he could use the Force and wield a lightsaber. I'm not asking to be uber-powerful, and I don't think that's what it means to play a Jedi anyway. I'd expect that a character at low levels would be relatively weak and those at high levels would be relatively strong. But if you say "no Jedi" what that says to me is "I can't play the character concept I have in my mind." If that's not the case, FFG is doing itself a disservice with the way it's marketing this material, or at least not doing a good job in responding to concerns.




I don't think it's so much that FFG showcased their game badly, but rather that a lot of people are responding in a knee-jerk fashion to information that didn't come from FFG in the first place.  Just in case that's what's going on here, I'll go ahead and link a couple of the things FFG put out there leading up to the game's release.

This is a video that, among other things, explains why there are three games coming instead of a single one:

[video=youtube;aRRtP3m-Scw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRRtP3m-Scw[/video]

And here is an article from the game's official site that details how the Force works in EotE:

Hokey Religions and Ancient Weapons


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## JZavoda (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> What is it with people insulting people today?  Just because I happen to have a job and other responsibilities doesn't mean I'm not creative or don't use my imagination.  It means that there are more important things in my life then gaming.  The time I do have to devote to gaming goes into the current campaign.  I'm not going to waste time designing something for a game that we might never play.  I realize that might be hard for people to believe but I have better things to do with my time then do the job I paid someone else to do.  I can repave my driveway, but I pay someone else for that and I expect when he's done that I don't have to go in there and complete the job.





I will say that even repaving your driveway, yourself, can give you a good sense of satisfaction, but trying your own hand at imagining and creating can be one of the best things about any RPG.


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## innerdude (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> . . . Just because I happen to have a job and other responsibilities doesn't mean I'm not creative or don't use my imagination.  It means that there are more important things in my life then gaming.  The time I do have to devote to gaming goes into the current campaign.*  I'm not going to waste time designing something for a game that we might never play (emphasis added).* I realize that might be hard for people to believe but I have better things to do with my time then do the job I paid someone else to do.  I can repave my driveway, but I pay someone else for that and I expect when he's done that I don't have to go in there and complete the job.




Bingo, exactly, dead on. THIS is the point. 

I was very excited to explore the possibilities of Edge of the Empire--until I heard that there were no true Jedi in the first game, that there were going to be two more "expansions" / standalone products AFTER this one. Crothian's exactly right---why would I invest in a game when I have no idea if the "Jedi" portion of the game is going to be anything that I even like?


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## JZavoda (Jul 21, 2013)

innerdude said:


> Bingo, exactly, dead on. THIS is the point.
> 
> I was very excited to explore the possibilities of Edge of the Empire--until I heard that there were no true Jedi in the first game, that there were going to be two more "expansions" / standalone products AFTER this one. Crothian's exactly right---why would I invest in a game when I have no idea if the "Jedi" portion of the game is going to be anything that I even like?




If you like the game mechanics then you just need to expand them to include Jedi. Normally you'd buy an RPG because you like the game mechanics and/or the setting, but Star Wars (and LotR) are heavily laden with source material and there really isn't anything a company is going to add to the basics of either setting. 

What makes FFGs and Cubicle 7's game mechanics so difficult that a homecampaign version of Jedi or Men from Rohan or adventures in Gondor are so difficult to create?


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 21, 2013)

innerdude said:


> Bingo, exactly, dead on. THIS is the point.
> 
> I was very excited to explore the possibilities of Edge of the Empire--until I heard that there were no true Jedi in the first game, that there were going to be two more "expansions" / standalone products AFTER this one. Crothian's exactly right---why would I invest in a game when I have no idea if the "Jedi" portion of the game is going to be anything that I even like?




Well you could just not buy EotE and wait.  Then when Force and Destiny comes out, buy or don't buy the game on its own merits.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Henry said:


> A couple of points to throw out that i maybe missed:
> 1) star wars revenues did not diminish after episode 1 - according to
> http://www.forbes.com/2007/05/24/star-wars-revenues-tech-cx_ag_0524money.html
> It made up to 15+ billion dollars as of 2007, and given box office revenues and toy revenues most of that has come in later years, not pre- 1999.\.




The report is not particularly well researched and fails to account for things like inflation or the opening up of global markets in later years - whilst mainly serving as something of an advert for Lucas films. There isn't much in it that actually contradicts the point that their stockmarkets fell significantly in the wake of The Phantom Menace's release - as it largely sidesteps the issue and drowns out the issue in terms of figures from a later period. It's a bit of propaganda in short.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Crothian said:


> What is it with people insulting people today?  ....
> 
> ... I can repave my driveway, but I pay someone else for that and I expect when he's done that I don't have to go in there and complete the job.



What you fail to get is that you are being insulting by repeatedly insinuating that FFE are being deceitful or incompetent in the way they are marketing and developing these games, and assuming that you speak for some type of majority. People react to this in kind.


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## Derren (Jul 21, 2013)

I really miss the time when jedi were something obscure from a past age and while they do possessing  several tricks they are not unstoppable supersoldiers.

Original Star Wars: Vader lets stormtroopers board the Leias ship and when everything is secured comes in and interrogates the prisoners.
"New/Expanded" Star Wars: Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon hack through pretty much a whole ship single handedly, other jedi face armies alone and if thats to bothersome some of them can force crush entire star destroyers.


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> What you fail to get is that you are being insulting by repeatedly insinuating that FFE are being deceitful or incompetent in the way they are marketing and developing these games, and assuming that you speak for some type of majority. People react to this in kind.




Fast Froward Entertainment has nothing to do Edge of Empire, I'm not sure the company is still in existence. I never claimed to speak for the majority of gamers in fact I never have claimed to speak for anyone but myself.  I am honored that you think I speak for so many gamers though.  If Fantasy Flight Game, the company that does produce Edge of the Empire, thinks I am being insulting to them they are free to talk to me about it.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 22, 2013)

Crothian said:


> I never claimed to speak for the majority of gamers in fact I never have claimed to speak for anyone but myself.  I am honored that you think I speak for so many gamers though.  If Fantasy Flight Game, the company that does produce Edge of the Empire, thinks I am being insulting to them they are free to talk to me about it.



I doubt they'd want to waste their time on somebody who is an avowed non-customer and represents their game in such a negative, repetitive and loud way.


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## Crothian (Jul 22, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> I doubt they'd want to waste their time on somebody who is an avowed non-customer and represents their game in such a negative, repetitive and loud way.




I own over 100 Fantasy Flight Games books and number of there board games and miniatures.  You continue to make up things about the people you are posting with.  I am friends with some of their writers who have moved on to other companies.  I think talking about games in a positive and negative way is the point of these message boards so I'm really at a loss on why you would think that everything posted here needs to be of one single view point.  It's find to disagree with me, in fact I encourage people to disagree with me if that's how they feel.  But you should try to be a little more polite and not make so many assumptions about people you don't know.


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## dm4hire (Jul 22, 2013)

I disagree with the argument that there are still Jedi, only they are force sensitive, just like Luke was at the start of IV.  There was a least one full blown Jedi in that episode!  If they were worried players would munchkin or whatever then just put in a limited ability list that conforms to what was seen in IV.  It wouldn’t have been that difficult and you wouldn’t be hearing this argument.  Players should be able to play full Jedi to the equivalent IV at the least.  As has been mentioned not all the Jedi were killed or hunted down before IV so that also leaves room for that possibility.  It should be left up to the game group to decide if Jedi are in or out.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 22, 2013)

I remain mystified at TrippyHippy's continual and blatant hostility and misrepresentation of the perspectives of others on this list, to the point where I really think it would be fair to say that he's lying about the opinions being offered by others. 

Nobody, certainly not me, and certainly not Crothian, has suggested that FFG is being dishonest or misrepresenting their product. What we've said, repeatedly, but apparently not at a frequency that TrippyHippy is capable of hearing, is that we are disappointed that the product has been designed and marketed in such a way that a) we cannot play that game we would prefer to play out of the box, and b) we are being asked to invest in at least one, and possibly two additional products in order to get a relatively complete package to play the game we would like.

I think FFG is a very good company. And I'm sure that Edge of the Empire is fine game for people who want that kind of game -- are you hearing this TrippyHippy???? -- My argument is that it doesn't represent Star Wars in a way that I find conducive to the kind of stories I want to tell and the kind of game I want to play. This is not because I'm a power gaming munchkin who wants to wring every last ounce of cheese from my characters (anyone who's played with me can testify to that). It is because I have a particular vision of what makes Star Wars special and unique. I also get that it's not what's special and unique about it for everyone (though I note that even the article on Force Sensitivity that was linked to earlier referred to the Force as "iconic").

Again, the scorn and condescension totally mystify me, and I can only conclude that it comes from having played some very bad sessions with power gaming munchkin Jedi. That's a shame. But seriously, dial back the snark and actually try to listen to what's being said. One thing I can't stand is having someone state my position in a way that bears absolutely no resemblance to what my position actually is. Kindly knock it off.


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## billd91 (Jul 22, 2013)

dm4hire said:


> Players should be able to play full Jedi to the equivalent IV at the least.  As has been mentioned not all the Jedi were killed or hunted down before IV so that also leaves room for that possibility.  It should be left up to the game group to decide if Jedi are in or out.




I thought the commonly held assumption was that all of the Jedi *were* hunted down and dead... Except for Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda. Tarkin and Vader sure seemed to think so. Granted, everyone seems to interfere with that and that's reasonably fair for an RPG. 

But I like what FFG is doing here. They've planted the new game squarely in original trilogy territory, putting the game right at Luke and Han's doorstep. And that's got a lot of good gaming opportunity. If you want Jedi, go play a different game or wait if you like the new game's mechanics. There's no point stewing about it or implying that FFG is into an extended money grab by withholding Jedi, just buy it then.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 22, 2013)

Here is the reason that I find it difficult to take the Jedi Now! argument seriously.  Note that I do not believe this viewpoint to be held by the majority even among those complaining, nor am I pointing at anyone specific in this particular thread.  It is, however, a viewpoint that has come up _frequently_ on the official forum and the Order 66 Podcast forum.

FFG is making a game with the Jedi in it.  They have said(in the video I posted previously in this thread) that they are splitting the releases into three games focusing on different aspects of the Star Wars universe so that they can give each of these major aspects an full in depth treatment that they just couldn't accomplish in a single all encompassing book.  FFG is going for a high quality genre emulation rather than a tactical fantasy RPG with Star Wars curtains hanging up.  I'm sure some people prefer a tactical game to a narrative one, but there it is.  Regardless, the Jedi are coming.  The product is planned and scheduled.

To know this...  to _know_ that FFG has the product you want planned, to know that they are working to make the best product they can, and then to demand that they give it to you _right now_ is childish in the extreme.  It is saying that you do not care a whit about the quality of a product as long as you can get your shinies earlier.  If you've tried the game and dislike it, then complain away; you've the right.  If you are simply wishing that their plans had been different, well I guess that's fair.  But to actually _demand_ that FFG disrupt their carefully thought out plans - and if EotE is anything to go by, their plans are going to result in something special indeed - just so you can have a watered down experience that would likely be no better than the various homebrew Jedi rules people have already come up with?  That I cannot support, as it is a line of thinking that would sacrifice long term quality for short term gratification.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 22, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> I remain mystified at TrippyHippy's continual and blatant hostility and misrepresentation of the perspectives of others on this list, to the point where I really think it would be fair to say that he's lying about the opinions being offered by others.



I't's all entirely about things said on this forum which people can read for themselves, if they want to check out what people have said. 



> Nobody, certainly not me, and certainly not Crothian, has suggested that FFG is being dishonest or misrepresenting their product. What we've said, repeatedly, but apparently not at a frequency that TrippyHippy is capable of hearing, is that we are disappointed that the product has been designed and marketed in such a way that a) we cannot play that game we would prefer to play out of the box, and b) we are being asked to invest in at least one, and possibly two additional products in order to get a relatively complete package to play the game we would like.



It's _insinuated _in what you say. You aren't being asked to invest in anything - the product is sold as exactly the product it is, and the plan they are implementing is clearly explained in any preview or promotion they have done. If you like what they have to offer then buy it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. But it isn't a valid complaint that the product doesn't meet the demands of gamers who _don't appreciate_ what they are actually trying to do with the line despite it being explained repeatedly in plain language. 



> I think FFG is a very good company. And I'm sure that Edge of the Empire is fine game for people who want that kind of game -- are you hearing this TrippyHippy???? -- My argument is that it doesn't represent Star Wars in a way that I find conducive to the kind of stories I want to tell and the kind of game I want to play. This is not because I'm a power gaming munchkin who wants to wring every last ounce of cheese from my characters (anyone who's played with me can testify to that). It is because I have a particular vision of what makes Star Wars special and unique. I also get that it's not what's special and unique about it for everyone (though I note that even the article on Force Sensitivity that was linked to earlier referred to the Force as "iconic").



The point is that the Force is represented in the game in exactly they way it is in the original movies, and the setting it is emulating. It is not being unfaithful to canon - people who are demanding to play fully fledged Jedi are. Your vision of the game is not in line with the setting they are faithfully emulating. To say "you can't play Jedi" in EotE is not a fair reflection of the game's intent or what can actually be played out of the box. _You can play Jedi _- it's just to reach that status it takes _patience and time _ to reach that status - which again, is entirely true to the setting. It's not a question of gamer's making their own choices how they want to play the game - it's about breaking the integrity of the setting, and breaking what The Force is meant to represent. 



> Again, the scorn and condescension totally mystify me, and I can only conclude that it comes from having played some very bad sessions with power gaming munchkin Jedi. That's a shame. But seriously, dial back the snark and actually try to listen to what's being said. One thing I can't stand is having someone state my position in a way that bears absolutely no resemblance to what my position actually is. Kindly knock it off.



It takes two to tango. You review your comments and I'll review mine - then we'll get back to each other. In the case of Crothian, I haven't read anything yet that hasn't been a negative and unfair representation of the game on this thread -so I guess I'll have to give him longer before I respond.


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## Crothian (Jul 22, 2013)

billd91 said:


> I thought the commonly held assumption was that all of the Jedi *were* hunted down and dead... Except for Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda. Tarkin and Vader sure seemed to think so. Granted, everyone seems to interfere with that and that's reasonably fair for an RPG.




In EotE it says that a vast majority were hunted down but if any survive they are hiding in the furthest edges of the galaxy.  The game itself sets up so there can be Jedi and says they would be in the very area the game is set is set in.  They also embrace the expanded universe in the book and that is were you see other Jedi during this time.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 22, 2013)

I defy you to point to anything that I've said that suggests anything other than that people who do not want to play with Jedi in their game should not be required to do so, and that those who want the option to have Jedi _should_ have the option to do so. I'll say again: You've utterly misrepresented, to the point of lying, my position throughout every comment I've made on this thread. Nothing I've said can even be remotely construed to suggest, nor to "insinuate" what you've been imputing to me, so I ask you again to either deal with my arguments on the terms on which I'm making them or to make a different argument.

It's ridiculous to say that I"m not being marketed to with this game: It's a Star Wars Role Playing Game. As a Star Wars Role Playing Gamer, I am the market for this product. The problem is that it's being marketed _poorly_ to me, though I will acknowledge that it seems to be being marketed well to you. That's fine, but if the question is asked (and I think this is really the point of the original post) "what do you want in your Star Wars Role Playing experience, then I'm going to answer, among other things, "Jedi." Now, it may be the Edge of the Empire accomplishes what I want in a sufficient way, but as its been described so far, I am dubious. And once more, it's not because I'm interested in power gaming, it's because I'm interested in playing  particular kind of mystique and a particular character concept.

If the only thing we had to go on to describe the events surrounding Episode IV were episode IV itself, then maybe you'd have a case, but there's a lot of material from the expanded universe, which has been canon in every Star Wars Role Playing Game up to this point, which gives material to allow for the presence of Jedi other than Obi Wan and Yoda. I'll say this again so that it's CRYSTAL CLEAR: If you don't like that and don't want it in your game, I fully support you not having it. I want that option to be there. This is my case in sum, and I still don't see you offering a shred of good reason as to why it's invalid for me to want that.


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## Morrus (Jul 22, 2013)

Knock off the personal argument, please, you two. It's the Internet - even if you manage to win an argument on the Internet, you still lose. I suggest you both refrain from replying to each other and let folks get back to talking about Star Wars.  Thanks!


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 22, 2013)

> If the only thing we had to go on to describe the events surrounding Episode IV were episode IV itself, then maybe you'd have a case, but there's a lot of material from the expanded universe, which has been canon in every Star Wars Role Playing Game up to this point, which gives material to allow for the presence of Jedi other than Obi Wan and Yoda. I'll say this again so that it's CRYSTAL CLEAR: If you don't like that and don't want it in your game, I fully support you not having it. I want that option to be there. This is my case in sum, and I still don't see you offering a shred of good reason as to why it's invalid for me to want that.



Actually, I can quote from the movie dialogue, literature, radio shows and indeed other Games (WEG) that state quite clearly that the Empire and Darth Vader drove the Jedi to the point of extinction and that ordinary folk began to doubt even the existance of the Force. I can point to it actually being the fundamental theme of the original Star Wars how Jedi returned to the Galaxy by the events surrounding Luke Skywalkers development, bringing 'A New Hope'. This is what the game supports - and allows you to play force sensitive characters either as potentials or hidden exiles. It's a non argument to state you 'support' my not wanting Jedi in the game. It's not my argument - I want an _authentic _Star Wars experience where Jedi are rare and mysterious, and who's training is slow, arduous and requiring of the 'deepest personal committment'.

Moderators note: I wrote this reply before I read your warning. I edited it down to ensure it was only discussing the Star Wars themes and canon. I'll refrain from answering for a bit till it calms down now.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 22, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> It's ridiculous to say that I"m not being marketed to with this game: It's a Star Wars Role Playing Game. As a Star Wars Role Playing Gamer, I am the market for this product. The problem is that it's being marketed _poorly_ to me, though I will acknowledge that it seems to be being marketed well to you. That's fine, but if the question is asked (and I think this is really the point of the original post) "what do you want in your Star Wars Role Playing experience, then I'm going to answer, among other things, "Jedi." Now, it may be the Edge of the Empire accomplishes what I want in a sufficient way, but as its been described so far, I am dubious. And once more, it's not because I'm interested in power gaming, it's because I'm interested in playing  particular kind of mystique and a particular character concept.
> 
> If the only thing we had to go on to describe the events surrounding Episode IV were episode IV itself, then maybe you'd have a case, but there's a lot of material from the expanded universe, which has been canon in every Star Wars Role Playing Game up to this point, which gives material to allow for the presence of Jedi other than Obi Wan and Yoda. I'll say this again so that it's CRYSTAL CLEAR: If you don't like that and don't want it in your game, I fully support you not having it. I want that option to be there. This is my case in sum, and I still don't see you offering a shred of good reason as to why it's invalid for me to want that.




I know this wasn't directed at me, but I thought I would point out that you are _getting_ full blown Jedi.  Just not in EotE.  I've said it before in this thread, but I'm mostly interested in the Galactic Civil War aspect of Star Wars, so I'm not getting my favorite part of the saga yet either.  Heck, at least you get the Force Exile, which can passably emulate anything done in the OT by the good guys anyway.  I don't even get to see an X-Wing until next year.  But I am content to wait because I know that I'll get a better game for the waiting.  In the mean time EotE is really good at what it does.

As for the EU, I don't think that the fact _some_ EU is represented means that _all_ EU must be.  I swear that I'll walk away from any table where someone tries to drag a Star Destroyer down from orbit.  In any case, the rules for the force in EotE fit the overall theme of EotE.  Prequel style jedi would not.  If fringer style scum and villainy role play isn't your bag, then you are not the market for this product, as EotE is a fringer style scum and villainy role playing game.  AoR will be a Rebels vs Empire role playing game, and FaD will be a Jedi-focused role playing game.  Although the games will be compatible, there is nothing saying that you _must_ buy all three in order to enjoy the one you want.  Would FFG _prefer_ that you buy all three?  Sure, but apparently they are comfortable enough with the possibility that you might not that they are willing to spread out the releases so that they can make the game they want.


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## Crothian (Jul 22, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> . In the case of Crothian, I haven't read anything yet that hasn't been a negative and unfair representation of the game on this thread -so I guess I'll have to give him longer before I respond.




Nothing I've said has been unfair (I'm not sure fairness applies to opinions) but it has been negative.  The thread is a negative thread started with one gamers complaints.  In other threads on other boards and with conversations with friends I've said some great things about the game.  This is not a thread about what is great and not so great about EotE, it is a thread about very specific complaints about two games and I purposefully stayed on topic as best I could.

Edit: To be fair there are also other complaints and concerns I have about the book that I haven't said here for the same reasons.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 22, 2013)

Crothian said:


> Nothing I've said has been unfair (I'm not sure fairness applies to opinions) but it has been negative.  The thread is a negative thread started with one gamers complaints.  In other threads on other boards and with conversations with friends I've said some great things about the game.  This is not a thread about what is great and not so great about EotE, it is a thread about very specific complaints about two games and I purposefully stayed on topic as best I could.




OK. Point accepted. Let's move on - maybe we can find something we agree on later.


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## Crothian (Jul 22, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> Actually, I can quote from the movie dialogue, literature, radio shows and indeed other Games (WEG) that state quite clearly that the Empire and Darth Vader drove the Jedi to the point of extinction




The game doesn't agree with extinction.  It uses the phrase "vast majority" which is vague but a minority of the Jedi must have survived.  The game also says that any living ones would be at the edge of the galaxy which is this setting.  Since the game says there are Jedi, the game places those Jedi in the geographical place it covers I think the game should have rules for Jedi.  Now, if the game agreed with your sources that the Jedi are extinct except for what we see in the movie then I would have less of a complaint of no Jedi in the book.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 22, 2013)

Agreed. There's a lot of canon that's been set in place since WEG's version of it, much of which takes the perspective that there are still a few Jedi scattered throughout the Galaxy. To be driven *to the point of extinction* is not quite the same as being extinct, and there are other Jedi in the canon during the Dark Times who are said to have survived Jax Palavin, Dass Jennir, and Ku'Kruck among them.

I acknowledge that FFG will be putting out a Jedi game _eventually_. I am simply saying that I'm not willing to invest in the game until the Jedi option is opened up. Then I'll be able to evaluate it on it's merits. It's not a knock on FFG, Edge of the Empire, or anything else to say that this game doesn't appeal to me or what I'm looking for in a Star Wars game.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 22, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> I acknowledge that FFG will be putting out a Jedi game _eventually_. I am simply saying that I'm not willing to invest in the game until the Jedi option is opened up. Then I'll be able to evaluate it on it's merits. It's not a knock on FFG, Edge of the Empire, or anything else to say that this game doesn't appeal to me or what I'm looking for in a Star Wars game.




And I think that is a perfectly sensible stance to take.  I don't share it personally, but I can certainly respect it.


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## innerdude (Jul 22, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> What we've said, repeatedly, but apparently not at a frequency that TrippyHippy is capable of hearing, is that we are disappointed that the product has been designed and marketed in such a way that a) we cannot play that game we would prefer to play out of the box, and b) we are being asked to invest in at least one, and possibly two additional products in order to get a relatively complete package to play the game we would like.
> 
> I think FFG is a very good company. And I'm sure that Edge of the Empire is fine game for people who want that kind of game -- are you hearing this TrippyHippy???? -- My argument is that it doesn't represent Star Wars in a way that I find conducive to the kind of stories I want to tell and the kind of game I want to play. This is not because I'm a power gaming munchkin who wants to wring every last ounce of cheese from my characters (anyone who's played with me can testify to that). It is because I have a particular vision of what makes Star Wars special and unique.




^^^^^^^^ *BINGO *^^^^^^^^

Substitute this EXACT comment for The One Ring, and that's the ENTIRE point of this thread. 

/endofdiscussion


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## innerdude (Jul 22, 2013)

Scars Unseen said:


> FFG is making a game with the Jedi in it.  They have said(in the video I posted previously in this thread) that they are splitting the releases into three games focusing on different aspects of the Star Wars universe so that they can give each of these major aspects an full in depth treatment that they just couldn't accomplish in a single all encompassing book.




Translation: "We at Fantasy Flight are pretty damn sure we can make more money by holding out on the good stuff, because if we include Jedi in the first product, nobody will buy products 2 and 3."


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## innerdude (Jul 22, 2013)

JZavoda said:


> If you like the game mechanics then you just need to expand them to include Jedi. Normally you'd buy an RPG because you like the game mechanics and/or the setting, but Star Wars (and LotR) are heavily laden with source material and there really isn't anything a company is going to add to the basics of either setting.
> 
> What makes FFGs and Cubicle 7's game mechanics so difficult that a homecampaign version of Jedi or Men from Rohan or adventures in Gondor are so difficult to create?




The point is that with campaigns potentially laden with such rich source material . . . _why is a significant portion of that source material ignored in the initial product offering?_

My answer is bluntly and more than a bit cynically, because the companies making the games on which the source material is based think they'll make more money doing it this way. To me, it feels manipulative and disingenuous. "Oh hey, look! You know that stuff you really wanted out of the gate? Yeah, give us another $100+ of your cash, and maybe you'll get it!" 

If Edge of the Empire is to your taste out of the gate, more power to you. All I know is that when I heard the phrase "multiple product release cycle," my interest in Edge of the Empire went from moderately excited to extremely disappointed.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 22, 2013)

innerdude said:


> Translation: "We at Fantasy Flight are pretty damn sure we can make more money by holding out on the good stuff, because if we include Jedi in the first product, nobody will buy products 2 and 3."




If that's your take on it, so be it.  It's cynical, pessimistic, and you're basically calling them liars, so I have less respect for that opinion, but it's yours to have.  It doesn't seem to hold to reason though.  If they were trying to milk the fans, WotC pretty much showed a better way to do that:  Make a generic system that technically covers the most iconic aspects of the universe(even if it does so badly and without even trying to actually emulate the movies through gameplay) and then release splatbooks until you run out of ideas for such, then revise the whole thing, forcing people(that want to play the latest version) to rebuy everything.

With FFG's approach, it would be quite easy just to ignore any parts you aren't interested in and wait for, as you call it, the "good stuff."  It's all up front, with no deceptive marketing trying to get more money out of you.  Honest, you might call it.


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## Agatheron (Jul 22, 2013)

I think the point is well taken in how the disappointment in EotE appears to be more a marketing scheme than good game planning. I don't happen to agree, but I can see how the point is being made. Should Force and Destiny have been released first, or should Age of Rebellion have been released first? I can't say, truthfully, but I think if Force and Destiny were released first, there might have been some complaining that they couldn't play Boba Fett, Bossk, Cad Bane, or any other bounty hunter.

EotE gives us a taste of the Force/Jedi, but only a taste. It was FFG's choice to leave the full treatment until later, which is there prerogative, as they have the license. I do understand the logic. Yes, it is part marketing, but it is also part "entry point" as the majority of Episode IV's first act is in the realm of EoTE. The second act is arguably a mix of EotE and FaD material (limited), while the opening scene an the climax are firmly in the AoR material. I happen to agree with their choice, but unfortunately, I think FFG was damned if they did, and damned if they didn't.  

For me, I am excited for the long term prospects for this game, given that each section is going to get a massive book treatment. Am I disappointed that I have to wait to see how the Full Jedi/Sith treatment looks? Yes. Has it prevented me from investing in the current game? No. Do I risk disappointment in the Jedi treatment in 2 years' time? Yes, although not likely given what I have already seen. Is it going to stop me from playing EotE? No. 

Its solely my opinion, and I'll own it as such, that I think EotE needs to be judged on the merits of what is included and how it works as a game, rather than what they left out. I realise others may not share this opinion. I'd say if you're not wanting to buy the game, see if you can borrow someone else's copy and give what's there a read.

I should add that the beginner boxed game initially had no interest for me, as it didn't include character creation. What sold me on the game was a light flip-through of the Core Rulebook combined with an extensive read of the rules as presented in the free RPG day Shadows of Black Sun adventure. I was lucky to get the last copy the LGS had before their first shipment sold out.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 22, 2013)

Crothian said:


> The game doesn't agree with *extinction*.  It uses the phrase "vast majority" which is vague but a minority of the Jedi must have survived.  The game also says that any living ones would be at the edge of the galaxy which is this setting.  Since the game says there are Jedi, the game places those Jedi in the geographical place it covers I think the game should have rules for Jedi.  Now, if the game agreed with your sources that the Jedi are extinct except for what we see in the movie then I would have less of a complaint of no Jedi in the book.



Um...the opening paragraph in the Force chapter (p273, EotE) states: 


> "Belief in the Force is nearly *extinct* in the galaxy. The Empire has relentlessly destroyed all evidence of the Jedi and their ancient religion."



That's pretty unambiguous. 

It does go on to state that a few individuals still go on believing in the Force, and even fewer that can draw from it's power. Then it goes on to describe these individuals in the rest of the chapter. Force Sensitives are present and fully included. In terms of the handful of individual Jedi that may still be out there on the fringes of the Galaxy (and remember the Empire and most of the population don't believe there are any), they keep a low profile to avoid being exterminated. That is canon. 

In terms of the Expanded Universe material, as far as I am aware, there was only one other Jedi mentioned during this period, not portrayed in the movies, and he was killed by Vader. No doubt we will get more information on these individuals when the third corebook comes around - but none of this counters what has been said before. The EotE provides everything it says on the cover, including ample material for the Force and playing force sensitive characters with powers.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 22, 2013)

Crothian said:


> Also, and this really surprised me, is that if we just use the dice sets made for the game you don't have all the kinds of dice you need.  I figured if they are going to make special dice packs that they would include everything.




I suspect the dice you get are the dice you are likely to need on most occasions, and was done to keep the cost down on dice sets. Admittedly you could need more Challenge Dice, Setback, etc. but that seems likely to be less common occasions.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 22, 2013)

Bagpuss said:


> I suspect the dice you get are the dice you are likely to need on most occasions, and was done to keep the cost down on dice sets. Admittedly you could need more Challenge Dice, Setback, etc. but that seems likely to be less common occasions.




I believe he is referring to the absence of percentile dice, which they game does call for occasionally, and that is a valid complaint.  Granted, the vast majority of people interested in EotE already have d10s, but that shouldn't have been an assumption that FFG made when planning the dice set.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 22, 2013)

Scars Unseen said:


> I believe he is referring to the absence of percentile dice, which they game does call for occasionally, and that is a valid complaint.  Granted, the vast majority of people interested in EotE already have d10s, but that shouldn't have been an assumption that FFG made when planning the dice set.




I don't agree. d10's are likely to be easily available in any store where you buy a set of Star Wars dice. It would just up the price, and force experienced gamers to buy more dice they didn't actually need. At first I thought there might be a case to include them in the Beginners Box, but d10's aren't used in that set as far as I can see.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 22, 2013)

Can I just chirp in again on the original point.

I'm a fan of Jedi in the Star Wars setting. When I ran a d20 Star Wars game, it had two Jedi PCs in it, and the concept was the group were working for the Jedi council as troubleshooters leading up to the Clone Wars.

When I played WEGs d6 Star Wars, one of the characters played a burned out Jedi in hiding, and my character became a force user and studied under him, until their character eventually got corrupted and turned to the dark side. WEG corruption mechanic was excellent and really added atmosphere to playing a Jedi.

However I think that FFG have got EotE right, and I think their whole approach to Jedi is correct.

If you look at what is in EotE you can play a Force Sensitive character that with experience can do pretty much everything you see Luke, Ben and Yoda do in the original trilogy. That seems to accurately reflect Force Users in the era FFG seem to be aiming at.

I imagine that the later books particularly the last one will allow for more showy stuff, that appears in the prequel trilogy and expanded universe, post RotJ. I hope they introduce a darkside corruption mechanic in that last book as well (if not in the second book).

This delayed release gives players a chance to grow in power like Luke does in the films, and EU, it also give FFG a chance to get a lot of feedback on how the Force works before they introduce additional complexity and rules. It should be seen as a bonus.


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## Crothian (Jul 22, 2013)

TrippyHippy said:


> Um...the opening paragraph in the Force chapter (p273, EotE) states:
> That's pretty unambiguous.




Except if you totally ignore what else it says the part I'm referring to.  pg 276 for third time

"If any survive they (the Jedi) do so in hiding at the farthest edges of the galaxy"

That line opens up the possibility of their being Jedi.


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## ShadowDenizen (Jul 22, 2013)

Morrus said:


> I don't want Jedi.  I think Star Wars is worse when hundreds of Jedi are running around waving purple lightsabers.




I wouldn't go THAT far. 

But I would agree that Jedi aren't the be-all and end-all of Star Wars. (It was lowly Bothan spies that brought the plans to the Death Star to the Rebellion, right?)

However, I get that people WANT to play Jedi, so it does kinda baffle me why FFG wouldm't give at least cursory rules for Jedi in A CORE rulebook...


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## Bagpuss (Jul 22, 2013)

ShadowDenizen said:


> However, I get that people WANT to play Jedi, so it does kinda baffle me why FFG wouldm't give at least cursory rules for Jedi in A CORE rulebook...




They do give at least cursory rules, that's what the Force Sensitive option is.

To do Jedi justice they would need a lot more pages or it's own Core rulebook (which is what they are planning) but to provide cursory rules that's what the Force Chapter is.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 22, 2013)

Well, I think what this entire thread has convinced me of is that I already have a Star Wars game that suits my needs quite well. While the material I've seen for Edge of the Empire is aesthetically pleasing, and apparently the mechanic is interesting and innovative, given the way FFG has decided to structure it, I think that, for the foreseeable future I'm better off playing the Saga edition. I was always fairly content with the mechanics as they were developed in that system, and most of the art artwork that I liked in that system is no worse aesthetically than EotE. I know not everyone is thrilled with the d20 core mechanic these days, but that's not really a problem for me.

Now I've got a strong urge to flip through my copies of the Knights of the Old Republic and Jedi Academy Training Manual books!


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## ShadowAssassin (Jul 22, 2013)

Interestingly for all the _nonsense_ that's going on in this thread no-one has yet come up with the probable reason for both companies release schedule.

The IP owners control what the companies release and when. The IP owners want a steady revenue stream throughout the period of the licence and in order to guarantee that steady income stream the material is approved in such a way as to maximise that outcome.

Blame the lawyers and accountants not C7 and FFG.

*Mod Edit:* Let's keep this clean and family friendly, hey what?  -Umbran


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## DM Howard (Jul 22, 2013)

I'm completely fine with the way it is being handled.  I can see the other point of view though, so I understand and support this open letter.


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## TrippyHippy (Jul 22, 2013)

Crothian said:


> Except if you totally ignore what else it says the part I'm referring to.  pg 276 for third time
> 
> "If any survive they (the Jedi) do so in hiding at the farthest edges of the galaxy"
> 
> That line opens up the possibility of their being Jedi.



Well, I simply quoted the text as you denied that my reference to 'brink of extinction' was even mentioned before - yet it's mentioned in the first line of the text. You've also ignored what I actually said, which is that there _may_ be some scattered  remnents of Jedi hidden in the universe - which presumably is what the third book in the series will be about.


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## Umbran (Jul 22, 2013)

ShadowAssassin said:


> The IP owners control what the companies release and when. The IP owners want a steady revenue stream throughout the period of the licence and in order to guarantee that steady income stream the material is approved in such a way as to maximise that outcome.




I would expect a bright IP owner, dealing with a niche market product like an RPG, would go for something far more predictable than sales-based payment on that license.  If you know the product will be a huge hit, then you take a percentage.  But if it is small potatoes (as an RPG would be as compared to the whole of the Star Wars property), you'd go with something more like a flat fee.  And while I am sure the owners hold a right to review content published using their IP, dictating exact product and schedule is likely outside the terms of a sane licensing agreement.  The IP owner, honestly, probably doesn't know enough about the market and product to exercise that kind of control. 

Remember, a license is what you do when you don't want to bother or hassle over a product, but want to get *some* money out of the property.  If you really want control, you do it yourself.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Jul 22, 2013)

Umbran said:


> And while I am sure the owners hold a right to review content published using their IP, dictating exact product and schedule is likely outside the terms of a sane licensing agreement.  The IP owner, honestly, probably doesn't know enough about the market and product to exercise that kind of control.
> 
> Remember, a license is what you do when you don't want to bother or hassle over a product, but want to get *some* money out of the property.  If you really want control, you do it yourself.




Normally I'd agree, but isn't this basically what happened to MWP with Marvel? The license owner limited them in the material they could publish based on the direction Marvel was taking with other aspects of the brand. Maybe FFGs license is limited similarly to coincide with the direction Disney is taking with Star Wars.


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## billd91 (Jul 22, 2013)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> Normally I'd agree, but isn't this basically what happened to MWP with Marvel? The license owner limited them in the material they could publish based on the direction Marvel was taking with other aspects of the brand. Maybe FFGs license is limited similarly to coincide with the direction Disney is taking with Star Wars.




I'd also mention that FASA faced substantial interference from Paramount in the last years of their license. So I wouldn't assume that a corporation who felt they had valuable properties wouldn't keep a tight rein on their licensees. From our perspective, that may not be money and effort wisely spent, but I'm sure they feel the opposite.


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## dm4hire (Jul 23, 2013)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> Normally I'd agree, but isn't this basically what happened to MWP with Marvel? The license owner limited them in the material they could publish based on the direction Marvel was taking with other aspects of the brand. Maybe FFGs license is limited similarly to coincide with the direction *Disney* is taking with Star Wars.




The license to Star Wars transferred long before the Disney buyout occurred.  If anything FFG needs to stay on the ball before Disney pulls the license.  Another reason not putting at least a small portion of Jedi stuff could be bad news.  It wouldn't be the first time a license got pulled on a RPG, leaving fans hanging with products pending.  WotC's recall over their licenses rings a bell.  Even FFG is party to a sudden decision to change licensee considering the sudden loss Green Ronin faced with Warhammer.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 23, 2013)

dm4hire said:


> The license to Star Wars transferred long before the Disney buyout occurred.  If anything FFG needs to stay on the ball before Disney pulls the license.  Another reason not putting at least a small portion of Jedi stuff could be bad news.  It wouldn't be the first time a license got pulled on a RPG, leaving fans hanging with products pending.  WotC's recall over their licenses rings a bell.  Even FFG is party to a sudden decision to change licensee considering the sudden loss Green Ronin faced with Warhammer.




It's true.  Disney _could_ pull the license.  You can't base a product development schedule on the fear of the _possibility_ that your license could be taken away though.  If anything, that would simply be an argument against publishing licensed IP in the first place.


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## Agatheron (Jul 23, 2013)

Not having seen the actual licensing contract, we don't know the fine print. It is likely that it has been signed for a term that is longer than the anticipated three year release schedule that FFG has put forward. Disney also tends to be hands off separate intellectual property areas (Marvel). All told, I think this isn't something we need to be worried about relative to the discussion at hand.


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## Wednesday Boy (Jul 23, 2013)

Crothian said:


> All I know is that Jedi are coming in the third game.  I've seen nothing from FFG that says the reason they are delaying Jedi is to take the time and do it right.  So, I'd love to see your source for that.




I think Jay Little, Senior Game Designer, addresses this in the following video.  (YMMV):
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4228


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## JZavoda (Jul 23, 2013)

innerdude said:


> The point is that with campaigns potentially laden with such rich source material . . . _why is a significant portion of that source material ignored in the initial product offering?_
> 
> My answer is bluntly and more than a bit cynically, because the companies making the games on which the source material is based think they'll make more money doing it this way. To me, it feels manipulative and disingenuous. "Oh hey, look! You know that stuff you really wanted out of the gate? Yeah, give us another $100+ of your cash, and maybe you'll get it!"
> 
> If Edge of the Empire is to your taste out of the gate, more power to you. All I know is that when I heard the phrase "multiple product release cycle," my interest in Edge of the Empire went from moderately excited to extremely disappointed.




I think it is more likely that FFG is trying to do something that hasn't been done and done before. Someone mentioned that there hadn't been a comprehensive LotR RPG, which I find bizarre. MERP was extraordinarily comprehensive and successful. It covered a vast amount of material and now commands high prices for these old products. Star Wars is the same, though most of the older WEG products are fairly cheap they covered quiet a bit from the original 3 movies. 

But my point is that it shouldn't be hard or that time consuming to simply create from the rules mechanics and existing source material the kind of characters and adventures that you want. Is there something about these rule systems that makes this inordinately difficult to do?


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## Super Pony (Jul 23, 2013)

JZavoda said:


> But my point is that it shouldn't be hard or that time consuming to simply create from the rules mechanics and existing source material the kind of characters and adventures that you want. Is there something about these rule systems that makes this inordinately difficult to do?



I think the point that was being made a few pages back is that people don't want to have to pay for a game and then design the game they actually _want _out of it.  I totally get that.  It's just hard for me to get too worked up because I am kind of like that spoiled little brat that just got everything they wanted for Christmas while the kid next door got a Slim Jim and a half melted copy of Naked Lunch on VHS from their creepy uncle


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## Neonchameleon (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> I agree. The more I see from Edge of the Empire the less it looks like a Star Wars game. It is another version of Traveler or Firefly or even Ashen Stars. I'm really surprised on how much that is Star Wars from the movies is not in this book.




I, on the other hand, was delighted to see that it would be Star Wars: A New Hope and not Star Wars: The Phantom Menace.  I haven't bought it yet because I'm not able to find dice and not buying it without.

But seriously, look at the characters in ANH.  Obi Wan is an NPC.  Han is a scruffy smuggler on the edge of the Empire, as is Chewie.  The only force-using PC is Luke and he's pretty much untrained.

The second book is to be about the Rebellion - i.e. The Empire Strikes Back.  The third, the Return of the Jedi, is when the Jedi finally show up _as Jedi_.   This, I don't see as a problem.

And I'd much rather a Star Wars game based on A New Hope and in which Han was a scruffy smuggler who shot first than one based on The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

Well, the Star Wars Universe is much bigger than those six movies, though I see your point structurally. My big beef though is this: Suppose I don't want to play Episode IV? Suppose I want to play a game set in the New Republic? Or a Jedi Academy game? I would like to be able to play those out of the box. Episode IV is a wonderful thing, and so is a game based on the tropes of Episode IV, but those aren't the only tropes that one could play with, and it would have been nice if they had constructed the game to cater to a variety of play styles, rather than just one.

But hey, again, if that's your game style and that's what you want to play, this is clearly a game well constructed for that purpose, and more power to you. I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to reevaluate when the other games come out.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 25, 2013)

Neonchameleon said:


> And I'd much rather a Star Wars game based on A New Hope and in which Han was a scruffy smuggler who shot first than one based on The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones.




But which version is it? I'd rather the original _Star Wars_ where Han shoots first, than the revised and expanded _Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope_ where he shoots second.


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## Neonchameleon (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, the Star Wars Universe is much bigger than those six movies, though I see your point structurally. My big beef though is this: Suppose I don't want to play Episode IV? Suppose I want to play a game set in the New Republic? Or a Jedi Academy game? I would like to be able to play those out of the box. Episode IV is a wonderful thing, and so is a game based on the tropes of Episode IV, but those aren't the only tropes that one could play with, and it would have been nice if they had constructed the game to cater to a variety of play styles, rather than just one.
> 
> But hey, again, if that's your game style and that's what you want to play, this is clearly a game well constructed for that purpose, and more power to you. I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to reevaluate when the other games come out.




What do you want to _do_ in the New Republic?  This is the big question.  You'll need book three for a Jedi Academy game - but as there were only a few dozen Jedi in the entire Republic, there's plenty to do in the Republic otherwise.  Spies, espionage, smuggling and dodging the law, and anything scoundrel-ish (including, I believe, politics) fit Edge of Empire.  Military (whatever sort) are the focus of the second, and the decision is that actually trained Jedi need a book to themselves.


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## Wednesday Boy (Jul 25, 2013)

Has FFG hinted at a general release schedule for the second two books?  Since the core concepts of the system (skills; the skill resolution scheme; race, talent, equipment, and speciality structure) have already been developed for EotE, I imagine tailoring those for the remaining two theme wouldn't take very long.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

Well, military is at least one possible approach (clean up the remnants of the Old Empire), but I would also imagine a greater role for Jedi in the New Republic. Even early on you've got folks like Kyle Katarn and Corran Horn in addition to Luke ( and Mara Jade and an in-training Leia).

But again, I guess what I'm saying is: For your first product, you should give players a basic toolbox that enables them to do whatever they want that fits in the parameters of the universe, and then deepen that with subsequent products. But clearly this is a game design choice that not everyone needs or agrees with, and I'm fine with that.


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## billd91 (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> again, I guess what I'm saying is: For your first product, you should give players a basic toolbox that enables them to do whatever they want that fits in the parameters of the universe, and then deepen that with subsequent products. But clearly this is a game design choice that not everyone needs or agrees with, and I'm fine with that.




Whether or not you should provide a toolbox first or not, I think, really depends. That might be appropriate for a revised edition of a game when the previous edition already has campaigns under way. Providing a broad toolbox offers good opportunity to foster adoption. But this is FFG's first entry into the Star Wars RPG world. Starting narrower in focus is a perfectly appropriate way to approach it, particularly tied in with the Episode 4 scope on the fringe. That's how we got into Star Wars the first time, I think it's a reasonable plan for FFG to emulate it with their version of the RPG.

Depending on the nature of the toolbox, starting with one can really be unhelpful. Go check out Traveller 5. I dare you. I double dog dare you.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

Well certainly the toolbox has to have the right tools for the game you want to play, and not so many of them that you're overwhelmed. To extend the metaphor a bit, a box of plumbing tools won't help me much if I'm looking to fix my car, and a massive 5-foot rolling toolbox is probably way more than I need. On the other hand, if I need a 3/4" ratchet, then I need a 3/4" ratchet, and it would be nice if I had one available.


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## Crothian (Jul 25, 2013)

Neonchameleon said:


> I, on the other hand, was delighted to see that it would be Star Wars: A New Hope and not Star Wars: The Phantom Menace.  I haven't bought it yet because I'm not able to find dice and not buying it without.




The book though is not Star Wars a New Hope.  In the movie we clearly have the Rebellion.  There are no Sand People, no Jawas, and we have very few races so we can't even do a proper bar scene.  The book is limited to a nebulous time in between the trilogies at the edge of Empire space.  The type of stories it seems to be designed to tell and based on the short adventures printed so far are what we see in Firefly and Traveler games.  There is obviously a place for this and I imagine Star Wars is a big enough name still that it would be hard for it to not be a success.  It just wasn't what I was expecting.  I wanted more Star Wars options.  That doesn't mean I won't play it or even run it.  I own the book, I own the dice and I'll buy more.  I just want better options in the future since I cannot change the past.


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## Jhaelen (Jul 25, 2013)

Neonchameleon said:


> Obi Wan is an NPC.  [...]  The only force-using PC is Luke and he's pretty much untrained.



You got this wrong: Obi Wan was a PC killed early by the DM because he realized, he'd given him too much power, and Luke is the DM's PC.

Anyway, to me the Jedi are the 'focus' of the whole Star Wars universe. If you leave them out what's left is just another Space Opera setting. It's the Jedi that make Star Wars Star Wars.


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## billd91 (Jul 25, 2013)

Jhaelen said:


> Anyway, to me the Jedi are the 'focus' of the whole Star Wars universe. If you leave them out what's left is just another Space Opera setting. It's the Jedi that make Star Wars Star Wars.




I don't think so. It's a step more general than the Jedi themselves. It's the Force that makes Star Wars so different. It happens that a couple of Jedi provide our primary introduction to the Force and that puts a big conceptual stamp on it. But they also have foils in Vader and Palpatine to provide another view of the Force. 

As others have pointed out, Edge of the Empire does have Force sensitive options.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> I agree.  The more I see from Edge of the Empire the less it looks like a Star Wars game.  It is another version of Traveler or Firefly or even Ashen Stars.  I'm really surprised on how much that is Star Wars from the movies is not in this book.




You can make every character in the movie Star Wars with this game.

That seems pretty star wars-y to me.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

I adore Edge of the Empire, in part because they give you rules for the Force but no Jedi.

Jedi should be super rare until after Return of the Jedi. 

Also, it's not a game about the heart of galactic politics but those on the fringes- again, I like this. It's Star Wars ground that hasn't been trampled to death.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

Vigilance said:


> You can make every character in the movie Star Wars with this game.
> 
> That seems pretty star wars-y to me.




You can make Obi-Wan? Because without a full fledged set of rules for handling Jedi, I don't see how you can make a good representation of him? Same with Vader and Palpitine.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> After reading the book I can say that they have really focused on a minute section of what Star Wars and it has nothing to do with the movies.  This game is designed around the Expanded Universe of Pre New Hope.  The books about Han, and Lando, and Fett that take place before the original trilogy is what the game seems to embrace.  I am surprised by how much Expanded Universe is in here and with some people saying they like the book but don't like Expanded Universe that surprises me.  There is also stuff in here for the prequels and we know how well people like those.
> 
> Also, and this really surprised me, is that if we just use the dice sets made for the game you don't have all the kinds of dice you need.  I figured if they are going to make special dice packs that they would include everything.




You can make every character in Star Wars using these rules.

Leia is a Colonist with the Politico Specialization.
Han is a Smuggler with Pilot specialization.
Chewie is a Technician.
Luke is a Colonist with the Force User specialization.
Obi-Wan is a hired gun with the Force User Specialization (I would argue NPC).

You could make both R2 and 3PO as well.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> You can make Obi-Wan? Because without a full fledged set of rules for handling Jedi, I don't see how you can make a good representation of him? Same with Vader and Palpitine.




What does Obi-Wan do with the Force in Star Wars?

He uses a lightsaber. Check, that is in Edge of the Empire.

He does the Jedi Mind Trick. In there.

He distracts some Stormtroopers. Check.

Yes, you can make Ob-Wan. He is old and washed up. 

Everything he ACTUALLY DOES in the movie Star Wars is covered in these rules.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

OK, well that comforts me to some degree. I'm still going to hold back until I have a chance to see how the whole game is structured. I think I just have a different philosophy of both what makes Star Wars Star Wars and what makes a well designed role-playing game than FFG used in this case. Nothing wrong with that, and in the end I may end up throwing in with this version. Time will tell.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Again- I would argue Obi-Wan is as much a PC as Darth Vader myself. He keeps the story moving, provides exposition, then goes off on a side mission while the last remaining member of the party is introduced (Leia) and then, his function in the adventure over, he conveniently dies.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> OK, well that comforts me to some degree. I'm still going to hold back until I have a chance to see how the whole game is structured. I think I just have a different philosophy of both what makes Star Wars Star Wars and what makes a well designed role-playing game than FFG used in this case. Nothing wrong with that, and in the end I may end up throwing in with this version. Time will tell.




I would give it a shot myself. I've been running it regularly, and it has everything my PCs have wanted. And one of my PCs is playing a force user- and he is very happy with the Force rules.

There are full rules for how the Force works and a Rogue Force User character specialization.


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## billd91 (Jul 25, 2013)

Vigilance said:


> Again- I would argue Obi-Wan is as much a PC as Darth Vader myself. He keeps the story moving, provides exposition, then goes off on a side mission while the last remaining member of the party is introduced (Leia) and then, his function in the adventure over, he conveniently dies.




Meh. From the point of view of the original trilogy, i would never consider Vader to be a PC.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

billd91 said:


> Meh. From the point of view of the original trilogy, i would never consider Vader to be a PC.




I think that's what he meant.


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## Crothian (Jul 25, 2013)

Vigilance said:


> You can make every character in Star Wars using these rules.




There are more then seven characters in A New Hope.  In fact those seven are the ones I care about least because those are someone else's creation.  

I can't make sandpeople.  I can't make jawa.  I can't make most of the alien characters in Mos Eisley.  There are is no Star Destroyer so can't do the opening scene.  We have no information on the Death Star so we can't do those scenes.  We don't have X-Wings or a Tie Advanced to do those scenes.


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## Neonchameleon (Jul 25, 2013)

Vigilance said:


> Everything he ACTUALLY DOES in the movie Star Wars is covered in these rules.




And this, to me, is the important thing.



Vigilance said:


> Again- I would argue Obi-Wan is as much a PC as Darth Vader myself.




As far as I know only Darths and Droids made Vader a PC.  (Well, the Smallville RPG would as well).



Crothian said:


> There are more then seven characters in A New Hope. In fact those seven are the ones I care about least because those are someone else's creation.




You mean that _all the characters with more than two lines_ are someone else's creation and so should be ignored?



> I can't make sandpeople. I can't make jawa. I can't make most of the alien characters in Mos Eisley.




Which races are there there?



> There are is no Star Destroyer so can't do the opening scene.




This is untrue.  The whole point of the Star Destroyer in the opening scene was that it was an armoured plot device _that didn't need stats._  It was simply overwhelmingly more powerful than anything the PCs would have had access to.



> We have no information on the Death Star so we can't do those scenes.




One-off armoured plot devices with only a quest-mandated way of defeating them again don't need stats.



> We don't have X-Wings or a Tie Advanced to do those scenes.




In short you can't do the death star trench run and don't have a little of the advanced equipment they picked up at the end.


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## Crothian (Jul 25, 2013)

Neonchameleon said:


> You mean that _all the characters with more than two lines_ are someone else's creation and so should be ignored?




They are great NPCs but I like to play original character.  YMMV



> Which races are there there?




Of the top of my head I don't know.  But a very quick internet search told there are 32 district species there so a lot of them.




> This is untrue.  The whole point of the Star Destroyer in the opening scene was that it was an armoured plot device _that didn't need stats._  It was simply overwhelmingly more powerful than anything the PCs would have had access to.
> 
> One-off armoured plot devices with only a quest-mandated way of defeating them again don't need stats.




In your games maybe the PCs are willing to just let things happen like a movie.  In my games my PCs are manning the gun ports and firing on that ship.  I don't use them as near indestructible plot devices.  I don't make it so there is just one quest driven way to defeat an enemy.  I don't like to rail road my players like that.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

Well, but here again, and particularly for those who are arguing "This is Episode IV" so all is good, If I want to do the trench run, the game should give me tools to do that. It doesn't have to give me tools at this point to do every single solitary thing that ever happened in a star wars situation, but it should give me the ability to do some of the central iconic scenes, including the trench run. It sounds like maybe, just maybe, you could do an effective lightsaber battle, but little-to-no starship combat, and no battles between capital ships at this point.

And again with alien races, I don't necessarily need something like "Aliens of the Galaxy," but I would expect to have a reasonably large sampling of creatures from the SW universe, and certainly anyone that has any significant role in Episode IV, such as Sand People and Jawas. Are there Rodians at least?


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## Neonchameleon (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> They are great NPCs but I like to play original character. YMMV




But to match the setting the original characters should be something like the protaginists.



> Of the top of my head I don't know. But a very quick internet search told there are 32 district species there so a lot of them.




I meant in Edge of Empire.  (And I think some of those were only in the remastered version in which Greedo shot first?)



> In your games maybe the PCs are willing to just let things happen like a movie. In my games my PCs are manning the gun ports and firing on that ship. I don't use them as near indestructible plot devices. I don't make it so there is just one quest driven way to defeat an enemy. I don't like to rail road my players like that.




The Star Destroyer was in the opening scene setting up for the game.  The rules there are very different.  And I'd no more bother to stat the Star Destroyer for other than speed or sensors than I would to stat an entire column of cavalry against 3rd level PCs.  If the PCs have to fight it head on _they lose_ and the damage is cosmetic.  The question is whether they can flee it.

And it was only ever fought in the opening scene.

Likewise the Death Star.  The whole point of that thing was _nothing_ could fight it head on.  Now you might not want to use near indestructible plot devices against the PCs ever.  But in that case don't use a Star Destroyer against the Millenium Falcon.


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## Crothian (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> Are there Rodians at least?




Bothans, Driods, Gands, Humans, Rodians, Trandosians, Twi'leks, and Wookies.  Those that species choices when making a character.  

In the adversary section there are some basic stats for a wider range of characters but they are for NPC.  If you don't know what a Sullustan is for instance reading the small paragraph about them and their NPC stats isn't going to paint a great picture for you.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

Another thought, as I'm looking at the FFG page for the game, I think one problem with the game as presented at this stage is the price point: I might be able to get behind a product that has what Edge of the Empire has for $20 or even $30, but it's hard for me to justify paying $60 for it, with the knowledge that I'm expected to lay out another $120 before I ever get the toolbox that I need to do what I want. I think this was part of the original poster's complaint as well.

But on Neonchameleon's last point: Here again, it's the question of what you want the game to enable me to do. If I want to send a YT cruiser against a Star Destroyer, it won't be able to go head to head with it, but are there rules to tell me how it could outmaneuver it? Can you do the "Escape the Death Star" scene where Han and Luke shoot the Tie-figters out of the sky? I think you should be able to.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> They are great NPCs but I like to play original character.  YMMV




All the characters in Star Wars are human, except for the Wookie and the Droids.

If you want to make "original characters", you have races for that in Edge of the Empire: Twi'Leks, Gand, Trandoshans, Rodians.

Just because it doesn't have EVERYTHING in one book, does not mean the book is flawed.

Fitting all of Star Wars, from old republic to prequels to the classic era seems to be what you want.

So far you've said you want full Jedi rules, advanced military gear for the rebeliion and the empire, and minor fringe races like Sand People.

If that's the bar, then no Star Wars game book I have ever read met that bar in one book.

This is not some dastardly plan of Fantasy Flight's. When I look at their publishing plan, I see the first book allowing me to make characters from Star Wars, the second allowing me to make characters from Empire Strikes back, and the third allowing me to make characters from Return of the Jedi.

That seems like a really SENSIBLE plan to me.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, but here again, and particularly for those who are arguing "This is Episode IV" so all is good, If I want to do the trench run, the game should give me tools to do that. It doesn't have to give me tools at this point to do every single solitary thing that ever happened in a star wars situation, but it should give me the ability to do some of the central iconic scenes, including the trench run. It sounds like maybe, just maybe, you could do an effective lightsaber battle, but little-to-no starship combat, and no battles between capital ships at this point.
> 
> And again with alien races, I don't necessarily need something like "Aliens of the Galaxy," but I would expect to have a reasonably large sampling of creatures from the SW universe, and certainly anyone that has any significant role in Episode IV, such as Sand People and Jawas. Are there Rodians at least?




Strictly speaking, EotE takes place between ANH and ESB, so that would be one reason why there would be no details concerning the Death Star(the other, obviously, being that such information would be outside the scope of a scum and villainy focused product).  That said, in a scenario such as the Battle of Yavin, the Death Star wouldn't be some statted ship anyway.  It would be a location.  The trench run would be akin to flying through a narrow canyon(just like Beggar's Canyon back home) with gun emplacements and a eventually a high speed TIE fighter pursuit.  While the book does not have a Star Destroyer in it, there are ship combat rules and capital ships.

As for races, EotE does not have every race in it, and I guarantee that if WotC were to make a new SW game, it wouldn't have every race in one book either.  Races sell books, and selling books keeps publishers going so they can keep making new ones.  I expect that the coming support books will each have a few more races to keep people interested(the first one, _Enter the Unknown_, has a Chiss on the front cover).  And before you go and start calling that a dirty marketing scheme or some other nonsense, keep in mind that WotC did the exact same thing with prestige classes and feats for pretty much every d20 product they sold(at least the ones that anyone bothered buying).

At any rate, the races included in EotE are Bothans, Droids, Gands, Humans, Rodians, Trandoshans, Twi'leks, and Wookies.  Though not comprehensive(or official, obviously), there are more races available in the Unofficial Species Menagerie


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> Another thought, as I'm looking at the FFG page for the game, I think one problem with the game as presented at this stage is the price point: I might be able to get behind a product that has what Edge of the Empire has for $20 or even $30, but it's hard for me to justify paying $60 for it, with the knowledge that I'm expected to lay out another $120 before I ever get the toolbox that I need to do what I want. I think this was part of the original poster's complaint as well.
> 
> But on Neonchameleon's last point: Here again, it's the question of what you want the game to enable me to do. If I want to send a YT cruiser against a Star Destroyer, it won't be able to go head to head with it, but are there rules to tell me how it could outmaneuver it? Can you do the "Escape the Death Star" scene where Han and Luke shoot the Tie-figters out of the sky? I think you should be able to.




The book is full color, and 448 pages, hardcover.

Also, the starship combat rules are good, and you could indeed play the scene where the Falcon fights tie-fighters. 

It has some ground vehicles, some snub fighters, some freighters, and some smaller capital ships. It does not have advanced military gear. 

It also has rules for modding gear, cybernetics, the force, a gazetteer of the Star Wars galaxy and an adventure. 

I think $60 dollars is a fair price for that myself.


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## Crothian (Jul 25, 2013)

Vigilance said:


> All the characters in Star Wars are human, except for the Wookie and the Droids.




We must be are using two different definitions of character.  I think you don't mean character, you mean main character.  I'm using character to mean any character on screen from the Sandpeople, to jawas, to things in the bar, including all the stormtroopers, and rebels, and Luke and Han.  

I'm not wanting everything in one book.  People have put forth the idea that this game allows one to do A New Hope which it most certainly does not.  Reading the book the game wants to take place before New Hope.  It wants to do stories out of The Han Solo Adventures (good book to base things on).  In doing so I think they made some mistakes in their choices and how they are doing things.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> Another thought, as I'm looking at the FFG page for the game, I think one problem with the game as presented at this stage is the price point: I might be able to get behind a product that has what Edge of the Empire has for $20 or even $30, but it's hard for me to justify paying $60 for it, with the knowledge that I'm expected to lay out another $120 before I ever get the toolbox that I need to do what I want. I think this was part of the original poster's complaint as well.
> 
> But on Neonchameleon's last point: Here again, it's the question of what you want the game to enable me to do. If I want to send a YT cruiser against a Star Destroyer, it won't be able to go head to head with it, but are there rules to tell me how it could outmaneuver it? Can you do the "Escape the Death Star" scene where Han and Luke shoot the Tie-figters out of the sky? I think you should be able to.




Well, since TIE Fighters and the YT-1300fp are both in the book, I'd say yeah(though the stock YT-1300 doesn't have quad-cannons; that was one of the Falcon's modifications).  As for the price, I think you'd have to hold the book in hand to understand.  This thing is 443 pages of pure gorgeousness.  By far the highest quality production I've seen go into a book in a long time.  Maybe production values don't matter to everyone, but this thing was built to attract.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

I'll just note that I for one haven't used any phrase like "dirty marketing scheme" to describe my attitude toward the game at any point. I've simply said that, the way that it's being marketed has yet to convince me that it's worth my time and money. I fully accept that others may differ with me on this. Once more, I'm not asking, at this point, for every alien ever (I think I said that explicitly), but for a reasonable sampling. If your definition of reasonable sampling is different from mine, so be it. Similarly, if you feel that $60 is a reasonable pricepoint, once more, so be it. Clearly FFG is a well run company and I'm sure their market research is solid, so I have no doubt that many others will agree with you. But again, I'm not really talking about $60, I'm talking about $180 to get all three of the books. Granted, over time I probably paid considerably more than that for all of the WotC supplements. But, apart from one or two that I picked up for the sake of completeness, each of them gave me something *in addition to the core experience* that I genuinely wanted. My gripe is that I feel like I'm being asked to pay $180 for the core, not for an array of supplements that I could take or leave.

To be clear: I'm not saying any of this is "a dirty marketing scheme," I'm simply saying that it does not fulfill my criteria of diminishing marginal utility.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> We must be are using two different definitions of character.  I think you don't mean character, you mean main character.  I'm using character to mean any character on screen from the Sandpeople, to jawas, to things in the bar, including all the stormtroopers, and rebels, and Luke and Han.
> 
> I'm not wanting everything in one book.  People have put forth the idea that this game allows one to do A New Hope which it most certainly does not.  Reading the book the game wants to take place before New Hope.  It wants to do stories out of The Han Solo Adventures (good book to base things on).  In doing so I think they made some mistakes in their choices and how they are doing things.




You did not read it closely then. It specifically says it takes place after Star Wars, but right after. 

And I am using Main Character, yes.

There is only so much you can put in a book. There are some places where the game master has to step in and add minor things, like a playable Jawa race.

I think you have very unreasonable expectations for this book. You say you don't want everything- just Star Destroyer, Death Star (for starship combat no less), X-Wings, Sand People, Jawas, indeed every race glimpsed on Tatooine, so one would assume all the races in the Cantina, and full Jedi rules that would handle Obi-Wan in his prime.

And yes, the game does allow you to do A New Hope. 

You can blast your way out of Mos Eisley, begin learning the ways of the Force, fight squads of Stormtroopers, fight a monster in a garbage masher, and fight tie fighters. 

Running "A New Hope" does NOT MEAN full combat stats for the Death Star, or playable stats for every race glimpsed in the background of the movie.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

Scars Unseen said:


> Well, since TIE Fighters and the YT-1300fp are both in the book, I'd say yeah(though the stock YT-1300 doesn't have quad-cannons; that was one of the Falcon's modifications).  As for the price, I think you'd have to hold the book in hand to understand.  This thing is 443 pages of pure gorgeousness.  By far the highest quality production I've seen go into a book in a long time.  Maybe production values don't matter to everyone, but this thing was built to attract.




The artwork does look genuinely gorgeous, and so perhaps I'll have to pay a visit to my FLGS to check it out in person. But since my usual vehicle for buying RPG stuff these days is online, the physical experience of the book itself is generally the last thing that qualifies as a selling point for me. That's what I get _after_ I've already went ahead an bought it.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> I'll just note that I for one haven't used any phrase like "dirty marketing scheme" to describe my attitude toward the game at any point. I've simply said that, the way that it's being marketed has yet to convince me that it's worth my time and money. I fully accept that others may differ with me on this. Once more, I'm not asking, at this point, for every alien ever (I think I said that explicitly), but for a reasonable sampling. If your definition of reasonable sampling is different from mine, so be it. Similarly, if you feel that $60 is a reasonable pricepoint, once more, so be it. Clearly FFG is a well run company and I'm sure their market research is solid, so I have no doubt that many others will agree with you. But again, I'm not really talking about $60, I'm talking about $180 to get all three of the books. Granted, over time I probably paid considerably more than that for all of the WotC supplements. But, apart from one or two that I picked up for the sake of completeness, each of them gave me something *in addition to the core experience* that I genuinely wanted. My gripe is that I feel like I'm being asked to pay $180 for the core, not for an array of supplements that I could take or leave.
> 
> To be clear: I'm not saying any of this is "a dirty marketing scheme," I'm simply saying that it does not fulfill my criteria of diminishing marginal utility.




Getting everything for D&D 3e would indeed cost quite a bit more.

If you are dedicated to get everything, RPGs are always expensive. 

When I look at the price, if I buy all three books, that means I am still running the game 3 years from now. That's $5 a month. Where else could I get this much entertainment for that price?


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

I think it makes sense to treat the Death Star as a location, not a ship, but you'd still need X-Wings to do that Death Star scene (at a minimum, I'm not really committed to the idea that you need Y-wings or others at this point though).


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

Vigilance said:


> Getting everything for D&D 3e would indeed cost quite a bit more.
> 
> If you are dedicated to get everything, RPGs are always expensive.
> 
> When I look at the price, if I buy all three books, that means I am still running the game 3 years from now. That's $5 a month. Where else could I get this much entertainment for that price?




Well, I'm trying to compare Star Wars systems to one another as apples to apples, but your point still stands. Though again, my problem isn't with the price per se, its with the difference in price between what I view as being a sort of "core" general toolbox and interesting but not necessary supplements. If it was $30 for the WotC Saga core book, then everything else beyond that was gravy, though granted it was gravy that I lapped up with great eagerness.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> I think it makes sense to treat the Death Star as a location, not a ship, but you'd still need X-Wings to do that Death Star scene (at a minimum, I'm not really committed to the idea that you need Y-wings or others at this point though).




Yes- and the X-Wing is the one thing that is not in the book that I think really should be there. My guess is their thought is that it's advanced military gear of the rebellion and PCs who are smugglers wouldn't have it. 

For the record- my campaign is nothing like A New Hope and the game is rolling fine. The PCs are on an out of the way planet that has been occupied by the Empire. Over the first adventure they were pushed until they struck back, ran a guerilla campaign for awhile, and when it got too hot, they stole a ship and fled the world, looking for outside aid.


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## Crothian (Jul 25, 2013)

Vigilance said:


> You did not read it closely then. It specifically says it takes place after Star Wars, but right after.




It's almost a 500 page book, it's easy to miss things in there.  Where does it say that?



> Running "A New Hope" does NOT MEAN full combat stats for the Death Star, or playable stats for every race glimpsed in the background of the movie.




It does because I have to be ready to handle what the players want to do.  If they want to gamble, I need gambling rules.  If they want to go and sell out Luke Skywalker to the Imperials then I have to be ready and have the rules to do that.  If I place a bunch of weird aliens in a tough bar that fights tend to happen in then I need to be prepared for a combat there.  If I have a Star Destroyer in the sky then I have to be prepared for the Ace Y-Wing pilot to take it on because he was able to destroy one in the X-Wing video game in the early 90's.  Players are unpredictable and it is no fun to tell the players "sorry, you can't do that because the game doesn't allow for it."


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> It's almost a 500 page book, it's easy to miss things in there.  Where does it say that?
> 
> 
> 
> It does because I have to be ready to handle what the players want to do.  If they want to gamble, I need gambling rules.  If they want to go and sell out Luke Skywalker to the Imperials then I have to be ready and have the rules to do that.  If I place a bunch of weird aliens in a tough bar that fights tend to happen in then I need to be prepared for a combat there.  If I have a Star Destroyer in the sky then I have to be prepared for the Ace Y-Wing pilot to take it on because he was able to destroy one in the X-Wing video game in the early 90's.  Players are unpredictable and it is no fun to tell the players "sorry, you can't do that because the game doesn't allow for it."




And a lot of those crazy things PCs want to do are not covered in ANY RPG. So complaining about this one seems a bit odd to me. If my Forgotten Realms PCs wanted to do something they saw in Neverwinter Nights, it probably won't be covered in the rules. It's why GMing is an art.

Also- there are gambling rules in the book, explicitly spelled out. 

As for a bar fight with a lot of aliens, you do not need player-ready stats for that. Decide on their brawn, give them wounds and strain, done.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> It's almost a 500 page book, it's easy to miss things in there.  Where does it say that?




Well, I don't have the book with me at the moment, but here's what the faq says on their website:



> What is Edge of the Empire’s setting and theme?
> 
> Set just after the destruction of the first Death Star, the Edge of the Empire Roleplaying Game focuses on the grim and gritty portions of the Star Wars universe. Characters exist in places where morality is gray and nothing is certain, and the game’s focus is on those that live on the fringes of both the galaxy and its society.


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## Crothian (Jul 25, 2013)

Vigilance said:


> And a lot of those crazy things PCs want to do are not covered in ANY RPG. So complaining about this one seems a bit odd to me. If my Forgotten Realms PCs wanted to do something they saw in Neverwinter Nights, it probably won't be covered in the rules. It's why GMing is an art.




The PCs get attacked like the beginning of A New Hope and it's crazy to think they might want to fight back?  The odds might be against them but I'm pretty sure if I told them they'd say "Never tell me the odds" because doing "crazy things" is part of the Star Wars movies.  

Sadly, the more I read the game the more it does seem all we need to do is give a few stats to creatures and be done.  There really is not a lot of mechanical differences between he species.


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## Vigilance (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> The PCs get attacked like the beginning of A New Hope and it's crazy to think they might want to fight back?  The odds might be against them but I'm pretty sure if I told them they'd say "Never tell me the odds" because doing "crazy things" is part of the Star Wars movies.
> 
> Sadly, the more I read the game the more it does seem all we need to do is give a few stats to creatures and be done.  There really is not a lot of mechanical differences between he species.




They get bonus skills, and stat modifiers. It's pretty similar to d20. 

But to run a bar fight, you do not need that much information. To me, that's a feature, not a bug.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> The PCs get attacked like the beginning of A New Hope and it's crazy to think they might want to fight back?  The odds might be against them but I'm pretty sure if I told them they'd say "Never tell me the odds" because doing "crazy things" is part of the Star Wars movies.
> 
> Sadly, the more I read the game the more it does seem all we need to do is give a few stats to creatures and be done.  There really is not a lot of mechanical differences between he species.




In the context of an encounter, what mechanical difference does there _need_ to be?  What are the primary differences between an encounter with a human and one with a Wookie?  The Wookie is bigger, stronger, and if you can't understand Shyriiwook, you aren't likely to have a meaningful conversation with him.  Between a Rodian and a human?  D20's assumption that every creature follows the same rules as a PC is a weakness, not a strength.  It is unnecessary paperwork.  

Make a few statblock templates for minions and such.  Make specialized ones for rivals and nemeses.  Adjust as the campaign demands.  Simple.  Effective.


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## billd91 (Jul 25, 2013)

Crothian said:


> The PCs get attacked like the beginning of A New Hope and it's crazy to think they might want to fight back?  The odds might be against them but I'm pretty sure if I told them they'd say "Never tell me the odds" because doing "crazy things" is part of the Star Wars movies.




Who said that crazy things PCs do includes fighting back when attacked? PCs do a lot of crazy things, not all of which are going to be covered by the rules - at least not without GM interpretation.



Crothian said:


> Sadly, the more I read the game the more it does seem all we need to do is give a few stats to creatures and be done.  There really is not a lot of mechanical differences between he species.




The more I think about this, the more I realize I'm content with it. That said, abilities and everything else may be bought up in highly variable ways. Add in the variability of the dice pool and the complications it can generate and I think you'll see plenty of diversity in actual play.


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## Scars Unseen (Jul 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> To be clear: I'm not saying any of this is "a dirty marketing scheme," I'm simply saying that it does not fulfill my criteria of diminishing marginal utility.




Yeah, sorry about that.  That comment wasn't truly aimed at you, but there have been a number of people(not necessarily in this thread, or only directed at this game) that seem to take umbrage whenever RPG designers intend for players to buy more than just one book ever.


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## Remus Lupin (Jul 25, 2013)

Understood. I fully expect that publishers are going to want me to be more books. I understand that their business model only works well if they have a certain number of people continuing to come back to the well every couple of months for whatever the new product is. As long as it's a good quality product, I'm happy to oblige.

At the same time, I want to be _able_ to play the game I want to play with only whatever qualifies as the "core books," whether that's three books in the case of D&D (generally), or one or two books in the case of Star Wars (ideally only one!). I get that for some folks, the kind of Star Wars game they're looking for can be played potentially with just this one book, and that's cool. But since it doesn't reach that threshold for me, I'm looking at the price for buy-in for what I consider to be the core, and it seems steep to me, though as always YMMV.


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## Psychman (Jul 26, 2013)

dm4hire said:


> As for Star Wars I'm more interested in the Dragon Age conversion that's going on.  Less dice and probably a lot better fit mechanic wise.




There is of course also a similar project already done using RuneQuest 6th Edition, but the pdf was taken back down by the designers to ensure no risk of legal suits.  If one goes to related forums and asks nicely however...


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## Agatheron (Jul 26, 2013)

I think as extensive as the rules are for EotE as presented, one of its strengths as a game is how well the mechanics work with _improvisation. _One doesn't necessarily need to have everything statted out, but enough is provided to handle whatever the players throw at you. If someone wants to be a Tusken Raider, I'd use the human or wookie profile and create a Hired Gun with a Marauder specialisation, inclusive of them being proficient in Melee and taking a Gaffe Stick. As enemies, they'd likely be minions similar to an Aqualish thug... Using slugtrowers and Gaffee sticks as their armaments.

Yes, later splat books will likely have sand people and jawas... But if you have someone insisting on being or fighting Sandpeople, the system as it stands has enough info to go on. I'm of the mind that as a system, its a great start. While it doesn't have as much support behind it as either WEGs version or WotC's Saga Edition, neither of those systems did right out of the gate either. What I also like about FFG's treatment of it is that much of the info for stuff not yet available can easily be extrapolated by cross referencing wookiepedia until an official resource is released.

As for price, its a matter of opinion. it's still cheaper than most of the university textbooks that I had, and I graduated 20 years ago.


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