# Converting Monsters from Dungeon Magazine



## Shade (Jan 11, 2010)

Part Two. 

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2010)

*Sleepwalkers*
These dangerous golems are the creation of Homayoun Bey, the ruler of this chapter of the Brotherhood. They appear to be humans with glowing red eyes, wearing red caftans and pantaloons and wielding saw-edged scimitars. The golems were named Sleepwalkers by the peasants of the Valley of the Mist because of their slow, shambling golem-strides and their tendency to bump into things and knock furniture over. Though Homayoun wanted to name them Flame Sentinels, the peasants’ name stuck.

Sleepwalkers are essentially minor flesh golems with a few alterations. Each has flaming oil as its blood, which gives the creature a slightly luminescent, orangish skin tone. If slain, the golem bursts into flame and disintegrates, but this does not harm bystanders unless someone is directly touching the golem when it is destroyed. In this case, the victim suffers 2d8 hp damage, with a save vs. spell for half damage. Though skinny, a Sleepwalker is incredibly strong, equivalent to a Strength of 19. Each golem bears a saw-edged scimitar which it uses in battle, causing 1d8+1 hp damage plus its Strength bonus of +7. While the jagged edges on the sword give it an additional point of damage, it weakens the blade and any attack roll of 1 indicates the sword has shattered. If disarmed, a Sleepwalker may punch once per round for 1d2+7 points of damage.

If the Sleepwalker has a weakness, it is its stupidity. Complex instructions are inevitabley bungled, for the golems may be trusted with only the simplest and most repetitive of taks. The Sleepwalker has the usual vulnerability to lightning and is not healed as normal flesh golems are. However, because of their fiery blood, they are resistant to fire, receiving a +4 bonus to flame-based saves, with damage reduced by four points per die, to a minimum of 0 points per die.

Sleepwalkers: Int semi-; AL N; AC 5; MV 9; HD 7; hp 49 each; THAC0 14; #AT 1; Dmg 1d8+8; SA Strength equivalent to 19; SD immune to mind-affecting spells, fire resistance; ML 20; XP 1,400.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #63 (1997).


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2010)

Per the conversion guide, 19 Str becomes 24 Str.

Flesh golems have 21 Str.   Downsize a flesh golem to Medium, but keep Str unchanged?


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> *Sleepwalkers*
> 
> *SNIP*
> 
> ...




So these are basically fire resistant Flesh Golems which are stupid, clumsy and armed with scimitars, that explode in flames upon death.

The +7 damage suggests either Strength 20-21 (wielding scimitars 2-handed) or Strength 24. We may as well give them Strength 20 since they're a minor version of the Flesh Golem, which has Str 21 in the SRD.

Its Dexterity and Wisdom should be at least a couple of points lower than the standard 'Frankenstein' golem, since they're said to be clumsier and stupider.

We can't make them less intelligent than the 3rd edition Flesh Golem though, since the rules don't allow for negative Intelligence scores, but we can make them less wise.

Actually, I quite like the idea of giving them Intelligence 3, since the original Semi-Intelligent. It'll allow us to give them feats. I'd like to knock of another few points of Wisdom though, to represent their "unbelievably thick" trait.

That would give us something like:

Abilities: Str 20, Dex 7, Con -, Int 3, Wis 6, Cha 1

Are they as big as regular flesh golems (8 feet), or shall we make them slightly smaller as they have fewer Hit Dice? e.g. Medium-sized, 7 feet tall and 300 pounds. I think I prefer them a bit smaller than a regular Flesh Golem. Their scimitars use a d8 for damage, which is the standard AD&D damage for that weapon (if you ignore the +1 for them being all jaggedy).


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2010)

I think the idea is that they're Medium. Closer to the human archetype. I like the idea of giving them a low Intelligence score and a bad Wisdom.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2010)

Definitely Medium.  Going with Cleon's abilities makes sense to me.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2010)

That works for me, too.  Anyone else fancy a falchion instead of a scimitar?  I think it's a better fit for the "brutish hulk" approach they favor.


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> That works for me, too.  Anyone else fancy a falchion instead of a scimitar?  I think it's a better fit for the "brutish hulk" approach they favor.




Falchion's good, and it's a better fit to the jagged scimitar's 1d8+1 damage.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggested damage for death throes?

Suggested resistance to fire amount?

Skills: 10

Feats: 3


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2010)

Minus 4 points per die suggests serious fire resistance. 20?

5d6 for the death throes, perhaps?


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2010)

Those values work, though 2d8 for death throes would fit the original description.

Should we add vulnerability to electricity since the text says they have "the usual vulnerability to lightning" (despite the obvious difference there with flesh golems)?


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Suggested damage for death throes?




Since the original specifically states it's filled with flaming oil, how about basing it on the 3E equivalent of Alchemist's Fire, with the damage boosted one dice size for the greater quantity?
*Flaming Death Throes (Ex):* When a sleepwalker is destroyed it sprays alchemist's fire from its death wound. All creatures within a 5 foot burst of the golem take 1d3 points of fire damage, except the opponent who struck the final blow who takes 1d8 fire damage (assuming they didn't destroy the golem from outside the 5 foot range of its Death Throes). On the round following the golem's destruction, the attacker who destroyed the golem takes an additional 1d8 points of fire damage. If desired, the golem's destroyer can use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this additional damage. Extinguishing the flames requires a DC X Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target a +2 bonus on the save. Leaping into a lake or magically extinguishing the flames automatically smothers the fire. The save DC is X-based. ​


Shade said:


> Suggested resistance to fire amount?




I was thinking fire resistance 15, since 3.5 generally has weedier resistance numbers than 3.0, but demiurge's fire resistance 20 works as well for me.



Shade said:


> Skills: 10




Intimidate?

They seem too dumb and clumsy for the usual Stealth and Perception skills.



Shade said:


> Feats: 3




Some weapon-related feats would seem to make most sense.

Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (falchion) ?


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Should we add vulnerability to electricity since the text says they have "the usual vulnerability to lightning" (despite the obvious difference there with flesh golems)?




I think that just means they take standard damage from electricity rather than being invigorated by it like a standard Flesh Golem, not that they take additional damage.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Since the original specifically states it's filled with flaming oil, how about basing it on the 3E equivalent of Alchemist's Fire, with the damage boosted one dice size for the greater quantity?




I'm not sure I like the added complexity of alchemist's fire.  Flaming oil simply deals 1d3 points of damage each round someone is within the area, so flat fire damage should suffice.



Cleon said:


> I think that just means they take standard damage from electricity rather than being invigorated by it like a standard Flesh Golem, not that they take additional damage.




Agreed.

Those skills and feats look appealing.  In tactics, we should probably note that they generally use full Power Attack unless commanded otherwise.  It seems to fit their modus operandi.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2010)

Agreed with Shade as to the full Power Attack (we should include it in their statblock as an option) and the dislike for the alchemist fire-based death throes.


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2010)

I can agree to flat fire damage, skills, and feats.  Though if we want to go with Intimidate, we might want to boost the Cha a little.

Cleon: I think you're right about that lightning bit.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

We could give 'em one of those "intimidating strength" abilities, allowing it so substitue its Str score for Cha on Intimidate checks.  I know there's precedent, but can't locate one at the moment.


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm not sure I like the added complexity of alchemist's fire.  Flaming oil simply deals 1d3 points of damage each round someone is within the area, so flat fire damage should suffice.




Well you see, unless my memory is failing me (again) in AD&D "flaming oil" was effectively the same as 3rd edition's alchemical fire, both being nasty hot-burning clinging mixture used for setting light to foes. The 1d3 fire damage version of oil was called lamp oil, at least in 2nd edition.

EDIT: I don't mind doing flat fire damage if you don't fancy my proposal.


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> We could give 'em one of those "intimidating strength" abilities, allowing it so substitue its Str score for Cha on Intimidate checks.  I know there's precedent, but can't locate one at the moment.




That sounds a good idea. I'm sure there's a feat or two that does that, too.

That would give them a +15 Intimidation modifier if they max-out their skill. That may be a bit high since it's likely to only be about a Challenge Rating 4-5.

Perhaps split its skill points between Intimidation and another skill? 

Not sure what the other skill should be - maybe Climb or Jump, to exploit their only good ability score?

How about Climb _*and*_ Jump - 4 ranks in Intimidate and 3 ranks in Climb & Jump? Assuming it has "Intimidating Strength", that gives it:

*Skills:* Climb +8, Jump +8, Intimidate +9

EDIT: Oh yes, the current stats has the word falchion mispelled to "Falcion" in the Attack and Full Attack lines.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

Those skills could work, but I see no issue with the high Intimidate modifier. 

Updated with the other stuff discussed.



> Construction
> The pieces of a flesh golem must come from normal human corpses that have not decayed significantly. Assembly requires a minimum of six different bodies—one for each limb, the torso (including head), and the brain. In some cases, more bodies may be necessary. Special unguents and bindings worth 500 gp are also required. Note that creating a flesh golem requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor.
> 
> Assembling the body requires a DC 13 Craft (leatherworking) check or a DC 13 Heal check.
> ...




Take this, reduce to a single corpse, add the cost of oil, replace limited wish with fireball or another "fiery explosion" spell?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2010)

Fireball as a spell requirement works for me. I like cleon's suggestion of splitting up the skill ranks.


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## Cleon (Jan 17, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> Fireball as a spell requirement works for me. I like cleon's suggestion of splitting up the skill ranks.




How about _fire shield_ instead? A _fireball_ seems a bit too explosive.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 18, 2010)

Well, they do explode when you kill 'em. But fire shield would make a good substitute if anyone's really adamantly against fireball.


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2010)

I like fireball and also the split skills.  Let's them do a little more stuff.


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## Shade (Jan 19, 2010)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or gang (2–4)? (like flesh golems)?

Challenge Rating: 6?

Advancement: 8 HD (Medium)?  Or allow them to overlap with flesh golems?  8 HD (Medium); 9–18 HD (Large); 19–21 HD (Huge)?


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## freyar (Jan 19, 2010)

Yes, yes, and take the last advancement option.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2010)

Updated.

Finished?


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## Cleon (Jan 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Organization: Solitary or gang (2–4)? (like flesh golems)?




Going by the flavour text I get the impression they are sometimes employed in larger groups than that, so maybe make it Solitary, gang (2-4) or mob (5-20)?



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 6?




Seems a bit high, I was thinking CR5. Apart from having 2 fewer HD they are Medium sized, so don't get all the Large-size benefits of a Flesh Golem (including the 10 extra bonus hp), only have one attack to the Flesh Golem's two - and that's for lower damage! - plus they lack some of a Flesh Golems immunities.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 8 HD (Medium)?  Or allow them to overlap with flesh golems?  8 HD (Medium); 9–18 HD (Large); 19–21 HD (Huge)?




I prefer the latter Advancement.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2010)

I like the addition of mob, and can agree to CR 5.

Updated.

Complete?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2010)

I think it's done.


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## Cleon (Jan 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like the addition of mob, and can agree to CR 5.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Complete?




Shouldn't the price be less than a Flesh Golem's 20,000 gp, since they're a lesser form of that Construct?

Say, 12000gp (Construction price 6500 gp + 460 XP) ?

Apart from that I'm happy with it.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2010)

Yeah, good point.  I'll make that change.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2010)

*Living Hair*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Darkness, night
DIET: Hair, fur
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil	
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 5
THACO: 15
NO. ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Strangulation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
SIZE: M (5-6' tall)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 975

A person who is extremely vain concerning the appearance of his hair can create a living hair creature.  Such a person must use strands of his own hair as material in the creation of a curtain or rug, and the rug must contain certain magic sigils as part of the design.

Sages suggest that the old folk tales about corpses growing hair after death, sometimes enough to fill the coffin, are actually accounts of living hair forming spontaneously.  Once having grown in the womb of the grave,  living hair can trickle out through the merest cracks and reach the surface world.

Living hair appears as a humanoid mass of matted hair.  It can break up into individual fibers and pass through cracks and under doors, but it requires 2-8 rounds to reform its manlike shape, so it tries to hide in a dark corner or nook until ready to strike.  It can Move Silently (90%), Hide in Shadows (80%), Detect Noises (50%), and Climb Walls (95%).

In battle, living hair strikes with two shapeless fists.  If discovered before it has fully formed, it can fight but causes only 1 point of damage per blow on the first round, 1-2 points on the second, 1-3 on the third, and 1-4 on the fourth before finally reaching its full strength of 1-6 points of damage per blow.

If living hair strikes with a attack roll of 18 or higher, it begins strangling the victim for an automatic 2-8 points of damage per round.  This is not simply a matter of seizing the victim by the neck—wads of hair actually enter the nostrils and windpipe!  The victim—or other characters—must make a successful Strength check on 1d20 to yank the monster loose, foregoing any other attacks that round.

Living hair regenerates 2 points of damage per round.  Blunt weapons  cause only half damage, but fire-based attacks inflict double damage to the creature.  Even if killed, living hair grows back in 2-20 days unless every strand of hair is destroyed.  Living hair is not considered undead and cannot be turned by priests or harmed with holy water.

Habitat/Society:  These monsters are loners, mostly due to their rarity but also because they carry a residue of vanity from the humans or demihumans who gave them birth.  This vanity has soured into a general hatred of all humanoid races, and they actively try to destroy characters with higher than average Charisma.  They inhabit artificial structures like castles, manors, and dungeons—another memory of their “parents.”

Ecology:  Although not natural beings, living hair creatures have stepped into an almost untapped ecological niche: They can utilize cast-off hair and fur in their bodies, materials that most creatures find difficult to digest.

Bits of living hair are used by wizards in the creation of magical ropes, such as those of climbing and constriction, and nets of entanglement.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #76 (1999).


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2010)

Umm, magical beast?  Maybe aberration?  Or some kind of strange construct?


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2010)

It sounds like a construct to me.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2010)

It's the spontaneous formation that bothers me about that.  Maybe appropriate fluff to describe that process would satisfy me, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 26, 2010)

It's absolutely a construct--just one that can also form spontaneously. The Swords and Sorcery Press Creature Collection 3 had a few spontaneous golems--I liked their gallows golem so much I used it as the centerpiece of a detective adventure.

Should they get some manner of rejuvenation ability? And should that be fast healing or regeneration that is overcome by fire?


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2010)

I love those spontaneous golems as well.  

I fancy regeneration that is overcome by fire, and could see rejuvenation as well.

For ability scores, downsize a hangman (rope) golem to Medium yields...

Str 18, Dex 16, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1

This thing has average (8-10) Int, so maybe...

Str 18, Dex 16, Con -, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10?


We might be able to modify this ability from the rope golem as well...

Strangle (Ex): When a hangman golem grapples a living opponent, it can make a strangle attack as a standard action against the foe it grapples. The hangman golem and its foe make opposed grapple checks (or the foe can oppose with an Escape Artist check). If the hangman golem exceeds its opponent's grapple check by 10 or more, it squeezes the breath from that opponent, and in addition to taking constrict damage, the foe is dazed for 1 round if it fails a DC 19 Fortitude save. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Jan 26, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> It's absolutely a construct--just one that can also form spontaneously. The Swords and Sorcery Press Creature Collection 3 had a few spontaneous golems--I liked their gallows golem so much I used it as the centerpiece of a detective adventure.
> 
> Should they get some manner of rejuvenation ability? And should that be fast healing or regeneration that is overcome by fire?




I agree they should be Constructs, but if it's a construct it would be immune to nonlethal damage so Regeneration would be problematic rules-wise.

Therefore I think we're better off making it Fast Healing overcome by fire, plus Rejuvenation.


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## Cleon (Jan 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> For ability scores, downsize a hangman (rope) golem to Medium yields...
> 
> Str 18, Dex 16, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
> 
> ...




Strength 18 seems rather a lot. I was thinking more Strength 13-15. A Flesh Golem downsized to Medium would have Str 13.



Shade said:


> We might be able to modify this ability from the rope golem as well...
> 
> Strangle (Ex): When a hangman golem grapples a living opponent, it can make a strangle attack as a standard action against the foe it grapples. The hangman golem and its foe make opposed grapple checks (or the foe can oppose with an Escape Artist check). If the hangman golem exceeds its opponent's grapple check by 10 or more, it squeezes the breath from that opponent, and in addition to taking constrict damage, the foe is dazed for 1 round if it fails a DC 19 Fortitude save. The save DC is Constitution-based.




Well the original reads like plain old Improved Grab and Constrict, but I wouldn't mind giving it something extra like that.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2010)

I'd say Str 15 at the very least, as these things are all about grappling.

Fast healing, by its nature, can't be overcome.  But we could blend the "death by fire" into the rejuvenation ability.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2010)

Let's do Str 16 as a compromise.

I think the original seems like fast healing and rejuvenation, where complete burning (after reduction to 0hp) is the way to end the rejuvenation cycle.


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd say Str 15 at the very least, as these things are all about grappling.




Well I was thinking of a racial bonus to grapple checks rather than upping their Strength...

...but I wouldn't mind Strength 15 *and* a racial bonus to Grapple.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well I was thinking of a racial bonus to grapple checks rather than upping their Strength...
> 
> ...but I wouldn't mind Strength 15 *and* a racial bonus to Grapple.




That's fine with me.


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## freyar (Feb 2, 2010)

Sure, let's go for it.  Str 15 and maybe +4 racial to grapple?


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sure, let's go for it.  Str 15 and maybe +4 racial to grapple?




I was thinking +2, but a +4 suits me just as well.


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2010)

Might as well make them good grapplers!


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.



> Living hair appears as a humanoid mass of matted hair. It can break up into individual fibers and pass through cracks and under doors, but it requires 2-8 rounds to reform its manlike shape, so it tries to hide in a dark corner or nook until ready to strike. It can Move Silently (90%), Hide in Shadows (80%), Detect Noises (50%), and Climb Walls (95%).




Racial bonus on Climb, Hide, Listen, and Move Silently?

Should it have a climb speed?



> Blunt weapons cause only half damage, but fire-based attacks inflict double damage to the creature.




DR x/slashing or piercing and vulnerability to fire?


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2010)

Go ahead and give it a Climb speed.  Racial bonuses on the rest sound right.  Maybe +8 to Hide and Move Silently and +4 to Listen?

DR 5/slashing or piercing and vulnerability to fire sound about right.


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## Cleon (Feb 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> Go ahead and give it a Climb speed.  Racial bonuses on the rest sound right.  Maybe +8 to Hide and Move Silently and +4 to Listen?
> 
> DR 5/slashing or piercing and vulnerability to fire sound about right.




The racial bonuses, Climb speed and vulnerability to fire are all good.

I was thinking DR/slashing myself. These things are just hair, there's nothing vital to be stabbed into with a piercing attack - would a piercing attack just push the hair to either side, which then returns to its previous position once the weapon is withdrawn?

Also, can we increase the Damage Reduction to 10 - I imagine these things are reasonably resilient against impacts.

What DR does a Rope Golem, have again?


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2010)

Dropping the piercing portion of the DR and increasing to 10 makes good sense.

The hangman (rope) golem has the usual construct standard of 10/adamantine.

Climb 20 ft.?

Suggested natural armor bonus (if any)?  I know the straight conversion is just AC 13, but I could see a little natural armor.  Even the wax golem has +5 natural armor.

Suggested damage for constrict?   Shall we add any additional strangulation effects, or does preventing speech and verbal components suffice for covering/filling the mouth?


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2010)

These things have low HD for DR 10, but I'm ok to break the rule of thumb if all agree.

Give it +2 or +4 natural, maybe.

Slam plus 2xStr (1d6+4) maybe for constrict?  Or go with garrotting rules?  We did something with strangulation before, but I'm not remembering which critter right now.


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## Cleon (Feb 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Dropping the piercing portion of the DR and increasing to 10 makes good sense.
> 
> The hangman (rope) golem has the usual construct standard of 10/adamantine.
> 
> Climb 20 ft.?




That Climb speed is fine by me.


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## Cleon (Feb 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> These things have low HD for DR 10, but I'm ok to break the rule of thumb if all agree.
> 
> Give it +2 or +4 natural, maybe.




Split the difference to +3? Then the original's AC7 can be the touch/flat-footed AC.



freyar said:


> Slam plus 2xStr (1d6+4) maybe for constrict?  Or go with garrotting rules?  We did something with strangulation before, but I'm not remembering which critter right now.




I'd rather increase the damage dice and give it a standard or 1.5 Str bonus.

Maybe an extra 1d6 or 2d6?

2d6+3 damage from strangling/garrotting seems plenty.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 7, 2010)

I agree that we should have it prevent speech and verbal spellcasting--the choker has a similar provision, if memory serves me right. I also agree to DR 10/slashing.


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok, that's all reasonable.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2010)

Updated.

Skills: 8
Remember, we decided upon a +4 racial bonus on Listen checks and +8 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks.

Feats: 3


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2010)

Let's go with Listen 4, Spot 4, I think.

Still thinking about feats.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2010)

Since they are ambush predators, give 'em Stealthy?  Improved Initiative for similar reasons?

Lightning Reflexes to help lessen fire damage from area attacks?


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's go with Listen 4, Spot 4, I think.
> 
> Still thinking about feats.






Shade said:


> Since they are ambush predators, give 'em Stealthy?  Improved Initiative for similar reasons?
> 
> Lightning Reflexes to help lessen fire damage from area attacks?




Dividing its SPs between Listen and Spot suits me.

As for the feats, it only gets two feats for its 5 Hit Dice, not three.

Stealthy's thematically appropriate but it is covered pretty well with its racial bonuses.

I prefer Lightning Reflexes over Improved Initiative, but we could give them both, or Lightning Reflexes and Weapon Focus (slam).


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2010)

How about Lightning Reflexes plus Imp Init?  I like that. 

So weird that a monster called "Living Hair" is really a construct!


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2010)

Indeed!  

Updated.

Should we give it some amorphous quality, to allow it to flow under doors and the like?

I suppose we can just put in flavor text, like many oozes and oozelike creatures:  "Living hair can compress its body to fit into cracks as small as 1 inch wide."

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

Living hair stands 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs around x pounds.

Living hair cannot speak, but understands x.


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> Indeed!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Should we give it some amorphous quality, to allow it to flow under doors and the like?




I thought we already had!



Shade said:


> I suppose we can just put in flavor text, like many oozes and oozelike creatures:  "Living hair can compress its body to fit into cracks as small as 1 inch wide."




Well I'd go for something a bit more formal, such as "a living hair can squeeze through narrow gaps as if it were a Fine-sized creature".



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x




Challenge Rating 4? They're pretty hard to "kill".



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




An unexciting 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 (HD) would do as far as I'm concerned.



Shade said:


> Living hair stands 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs around x pounds.
> 
> Living hair cannot speak, but understands x.




100 pounds and Common? A big bunch of hair won't be that heavy, and they don't seem very smart.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2010)

CR 4 seems reasonable, ditto advancement.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2010)

That all seems just fine to me.


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2010)

Updated.

Ready for Construction?



> A person who is extremely vain concerning the appearance of his hair can create a living hair creature.  Such a person must use strands of his own hair as material in the creation of a curtain or rug, and the rug must contain certain magic sigils as part of the design.






> Bits of living hair are used by wizards in the creation of magical ropes, such as those of climbing and constriction, and nets of entanglement.




The prereqs for those magic items might provide inspiration for the prereq spells for creation.

Rope of Climbing:  animate rope
Rope of Entanglement:  animate objects, animate rope, entangle


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## freyar (Feb 16, 2010)

I like animate rope and entangle.  Animate objects would be good, but I don't know why someone at CL11 would be making these.   It's ok if we want to add it, though.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2010)

Borrowing from the hangman golem's creation...

A living hair's body is crafted from a magically treated rug or tapestry interwoven with strands of hair from the creator.  The necessary threads and magical dyes cost x gp. Creating the body is a complex task that requires a DC x Craft (weaving) check. Five or more ranks in the Use Rope skill grants a +2 bonus on the Craft check.

CL xth; Craft Construct, animate rope, entangle, caster must be at least xth level; Price x,000 gp; Cost x gp + x XP.

Here are some similarly-CRed golems for price ideas...

Wood Golem (CR 3):  CL 5th; Craft Construct, wood shape, barkskin, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 4,000 gp; Cost 2,500 gp + 120 XP.

Tin Golem (CR 3): CL 5th; Craft Construct, fox's cunning, magic mouth, mending, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 6,400 gp; Cost 3,400 gp + 240 XP.

Fungus Golem (CR 4): CL 7th; Craft Construct, command plants, plant growth, caster must be at least 7th level; Price 7,000 gp; Cost 4,000 gp + 240 XP.

Junk Golem (CR 5): CL 7th; Craft Construct, make whole, magic vestment, locate object, caster must be at least 7th level; Price 9,000 gp; Cost 4,500 gp + 360 XP.

Among the sample, Craft DCs are either 15 or 20, and not increasing based upon CR.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Borrowing from the hangman golem's creation...
> 
> A living hair's body is crafted from a magically treated rug or tapestry interwoven with strands of hair from the creator.  The necessary threads and magical dyes cost x gp. Creating the body is a complex task that requires a DC x Craft (weaving) check. Five or more ranks in the Use Rope skill grants a +2 bonus on the Craft check.




The original description indicates this creature is entirely made out of hair, so I'd like that to be reflected in the construction text.

Similarly, I get the impression its not made out of special materials, just ordinary rubbish (like a Junk Golem or Scarecrow), so could we do without the special threads, dyes or other components.

I'd prefer something like:

A living hair's body can be crafted from any sort of hair (human hair, horsehair, wool et cetera) interwoven with strands of hair from the creator. Creating the body is a complex task that requires a DC x Craft (weaving) check. Five or more ranks in the Use Rope skill grants a +2 bonus on the Craft check.

The Craft DC doesn't need to be very high - maybe DC15?



Shade said:


> CL xth; Craft Construct, animate rope, entangle, caster must be at least xth level; Price x,000 gp; Cost x gp + x XP.




_Animate rope_ and _entangle_ are fine, but I'd like to add a higher level (~4th?) spell, since those are only 1st & 2nd level spells.

How about _animate dead_, since the creators imbuing unnatural life into dead organic material (i.e. hair)?

Going by the CL, price and CR examples, I'm thinking Caster Level 7 and a price of 7,500 gp.

Putting that all together could make:

A living hair's body can be crafted from any sort of hair (human hair, horsehair, wool et cetera) interwoven with strands of hair from the creator. Creating the body is a complex task that requires a DC x Craft (weaving) check. Five or more ranks in the Use Rope skill grants a +2 bonus on the Craft check.

CL 7th; Craft Construct, _animate dead_, _animate rope_, _entangle_, caster must be at least 7th level; Price 7,500 gp; Cost 3,750 gp + 300 XP.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The original description indicates this creature is entirely made out of hair, so I'd like that to be reflected in the construction text.
> 
> Similarly, I get the impression its not made out of special materials, just ordinary rubbish (like a Junk Golem or Scarecrow), so could we do without the special threads, dyes or other components.




The original text clearly contradicts this:



> A person who is extremely vain concerning the appearance of his hair can create a living hair creature. Such a person must use strands of his own hair *as material in the creation of a curtain or rug, and the rug must contain certain magic sigils as part of the design*.


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## Cleon (Feb 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> The original text clearly contradicts this:




Oh sorry, I was getting ahead of myself - my thinking was the original "body" could be any object woven from hair (clothes, nets etc), not just a carpet or the like, but failed to explain that. I'll agree my description isn't quite right. I'd prefer to expand the description.A living hair can be crafted from any object woven entirely from hair (usually a woolen carpet or tapestry, but it could be a horsehair fishing net, a jacket of human hair or anything else). The object must contain certain arcane sigils as part of the design and be interwoven with strands of hair from the creator. Creating the body is a complex task that requires a DC *15?* Craft (weaving) check. Five or more ranks in the Use Rope skill grants a +2 bonus on the Craft check.
​As for the "magic sigils", I read that as meaning particular occult symbols were woven into the pattern, not that any special material need to be used, so I'd rather not have any material cost even if we limit it to rugs, e.g.:A living hair's body is crafted from a rug or tapestry woven entirely from hair (any kind). It must contain certain arcane sigils as part of the design and be interwoven with strands of hair from the creator. Creating the body is a complex task that requires a DC *15?* Craft (weaving) check. Five or more ranks in the Use Rope skill grants a +2 bonus on the Craft check.​Although the mention of sigils makes me wonder whether a sigil-based spell such as _sepia snake sigil_ or _glyph of warding_ shouldn't be one of the prerequisites instead of my previous proposal of _animate dead_.

_Sepia snake sigil_ has "sigil" in its name and is on the Wizard/Sorcerer list, but its effects don't resemble any of the living hair's powers.

_Glyph of warding_ would be thematically more appropriate, but is on the Cleric list.

We've already got a problem with _entangle_ being a Druid / Ranger / Plant Domain spell - I don't want three spells from three different spellcasting classes!

I think I still prefer _animate dead_, _animate rope_ and _entangle_.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2010)

Animate dead is probably OK, since the flesh golem has it as well.  If we want a low-level arcane "sigil" spell, how about "arcane mark"?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2010)

Talk about low level!  But it could work.


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## Cleon (Feb 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Animate dead is probably OK, since the flesh golem has it as well.  If we want a low-level arcane "sigil" spell, how about "arcane mark"?




I was reluctant to suggest _arcane mark_ since it's level is so trivial, but if you're all fine with it we can toss it in.

Is the following OK?

A living hair's body can be crafted from any sort of hair (human hair, horsehair, wool et cetera) interwoven with strands of hair from the creator. Creating the body is a complex task that requires a DC x Craft (weaving) check. Five or more ranks in the Use Rope skill grants a +2 bonus on the Craft check.

CL 7th; Craft Construct, _animate dead_, _animate rope_, _arcane mark_, _entangle_, caster must be at least 7th level; Price 7,500 gp; Cost 3,750 gp + 300 XP.


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## freyar (Feb 22, 2010)

So DC 15?  It looks fine.


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## Shade (Feb 22, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Feb 22, 2010)

Let's move on.


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## Cleon (Feb 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Looks good, let's do the next one.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

Myriama’s doll-necklace is magical.  When a command word is spoken, the doll grows into a full-sized golem resembling a ship’s figurehead, called a wooden lady.  The golem attacks with its fists, doing tremendous damage; wooden ladies have a Strength equivalent to 18/00.  Fire causes normal damage, though if they are burned, these golems give off a thick black smoke to a radius of 1’ per hp damage sustained.  Cold spells have no effect.  Plant growth spells heal 1d4 hp damage per level of the caster.

*The Wooden Lady:* AL N; AC 5; MV 9; HD 8; hp 60; THACO 10; #AT 2; Dmg 1d10+6/1d10+6; SD +1 or better weapon to hit, immune to cold, no damage from piercing weapons, half damage from blunt weapons, regenerate 1 hp per hour; ML 20; XP 4,000.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #65 (1997).


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

No size was given, but we can probably just use the "golem standard" of Large.  Or, we can assume it is the size of a normal (human) woman.

18/00 Str becomes Str 23 in 3e.

It sounds like DR/slashing, fast healing 1, and immunity to magic with the given exceptions.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm thinking Large due to The Golden Voyage of Sinbad. 

In our exceptions, do we want to say that fire causes the wooden lady to emit smoke like a smokestick? The radius-per-damage is clunky, especially in the modern, 5ft-centric D&Dscape.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

Good idea.  Simple, yet effective.


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'm thinking Large due to The Golden Voyage of Sinbad.
> 
> In our exceptions, do we want to say that fire causes the wooden lady to emit smoke like a smokestick? The radius-per-damage is clunky, especially in the modern, 5ft-centric D&Dscape.




I agree with it being Large since it's a "full-sized golem", and using a smokestick for when it's set alight is a great idea. 

What shall we do with it statwise?

HP and AC it's roughly equivalent to a Stone Golem, but it has very low HD. The damage from its two slam attacks is impressive too - better than an AD&D Flesh Golem.

I think we'd should consider upping its Hit Dice. Maybe 12 HD, nicely between a Flesh's 9 HD and a Stone's 14 HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2010)

Slotting it in between a flesh golem and a stone golem works for me, but only if we give it some manner of special attack--all golems except flesh have one, and this as written now is just a beat-stick.

How about DR 5/slashing and adamantine?


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

Perhaps it leaves splinters that do hp damage for some period of time?  Or Dex damage or something?

The rest looks pretty good.  I can get on board with 12HD and the proposed DR.  I like the smokestick.  Let's not forget a shrinking ability also (this is like a golem amulet/figurine of wondrous power or an amber amulet of vermin!).


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I borrowed the plant growth effect from the 3.5 wood golem.  Although it is far more effective than the original writeup, the wood golem is much lower HD and gets that benefit.

I upped the damage to 2d8, like a flesh golem.  Do we want to go to 2d10 like a stone golem, or maybe find something in the middle like 3d6?

Suggested natural armor?  A wood golem is +8 natural.  The Thayan golem, also made of wood, is +11.  Flesh is +10, stone +18.

The splintering ideas seems worth pursuing.

Give the organization a nautical name, like "fleet" or "armada" for more than 1?


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

Agreed to the enhanced effects from plant growth.  Either 2d8 or 3d6 damage is ok, and I'd pick +10 or +11 natural.  I like "armada"!  

Oh, and there's an "eals" in the fire attack part of Immunity to Magic.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

Fixed the "eals" to "deals", as intended.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2010)

Splinters like a howler's quills appeal.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

Great idea!

Let's "woodenize" this...

Quills (Ex): A howler’s neck bristles with long quills. While biting, the creature thrashes about, striking with 1d4 of them. An opponent hit by a howler’s quill attack must succeed on a DC 16 Reflex save or have the quill break off in his or her flesh. Lodged quills impose a –1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks per quill. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

A quill can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check; otherwise, removing a quill deals an extra 1d6 points of damage.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

How's this?

Splinters (Ex): A Wooden Lady's body is covered in splinters. An opponent hit by a Wooden Lady's slam attack must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or have a splinter break off in his or her flesh. Lodged splinters impose a –1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks per quill. The save DC is Strength-based.

A quill can be removed safely with a DC X Heal check; otherwise, removing a quill deals an extra xdx points of damage.

I switched Dex-based to Str-based, as that seems to make more sense for the delivery method.  The Heal check can probably stay at DC 20, but I'm not sure if we want to change the damage for a failed one.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

That seems reasonable, removing the remaining references to "quills", of course.

The 1d6 damage is probably OK, but I'm flexible on the matter.


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## Cleon (Mar 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> Perhaps it leaves splinters that do hp damage for some period of time?  Or Dex damage or something?
> 
> The rest looks pretty good.  I can get on board with 12HD and the proposed DR.  I like the smokestick.  Let's not forget a shrinking ability also (this is like a golem amulet/figurine of wondrous power or an amber amulet of vermin!).




Wasn't that sure about the splintering idea, but Freyar's proposal looks good. I prefer Dex damage or a penalty over dull old hit point damage. 

How about slashing & piercing weapons that strike it get stuck in its wooden body, like the axe that got stuck in the animated figurehead in _The Golden Voyage of Sinbad_?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2010)

Cleon said:


> How about slashing & piercing weapons that strike it get stuck in its wooden body, like the axe that got stuck in the animated figurehead in _The Golden Voyage of Sinbad_?




No thanks. It's already got DR/slashing. The combo makes it pretty impossible to damage.

Edit: In Pathfinder, the howler quill penalty is straight sickened, which I rather like.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2010)

I'd be up for 1 point of Dex damage rather than the hp damage, and I prefer the Pathfinder route of sickened rather than spelling out all the penalties.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2010)

You mean swapping the hp damage on removal for Dex damage?

Splinters (Ex): A Wooden Lady's body is covered in splinters. An opponent hit by a Wooden Lady's slam attack must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or have a splinter break off in his or her flesh. A character with a lodged splinter is sickened. The save DC is Strength-based.

A splinter can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check; otherwise, removing a splinter deals 1 point of Dex damage.

Edited: changed the last quill to a splinter.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2010)

That works for me.  Any objections?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 3, 2010)

Looks alright to me.


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## Cleon (Apr 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> You mean swapping the hp damage on removal for Dex damage?
> 
> Splinters (Ex): A Wooden Lady's body is covered in splinters. An opponent hit by a Wooden Lady's slam attack must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or have a splinter break off in his or her flesh. A character with a lodged splinter is sickened. The save DC is Strength-based.
> 
> ...




Very nice. I'm fine with that.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

Updated.

I supposed we need to come up with the "wooden doll form" next.


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## freyar (Apr 5, 2010)

I think I'd write an underbar saying this is a figuring of wondrous power (and mention that in the monster flavor text):

Wooden Lady: This figurine, often worn as a pendant, transforms into a Wooden Lady construct (see above) X times per week/month for X hours at a time.  After X hours, or when the command word is spoken, the Wooden Lady returns to figurine form.

Moderate transmutation; CL Xth; Craft Wondrous Item, animate objects; Price X gp.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

Good point.  I prefer this approach over making it an ability of the golem.  In fact, I think we shouldn't shoehorn all of them into figurines, just note that some wooden ladies are created as figurines of wondrous power.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

That would be fine with me!


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Did we discuss natural armor yet?

We gave our wood golem (9 HD) +12 natural.

The (lesser) wood golem (3 HD) in Dragon Magazine #341 has +8 natural.

For construction, the (lesser) wood golem has the following:

A wood golem's body must be crafted from 350 pounds of high-quality wood and treated with exotic oils and herbal preparations costing at least 1,000 gp. Carving the body requires a DC 15 Craft (sculpting) check. The golem must then be buried beneath the earth in an area containing a large number of trees or plants for one week.

   CL 5th; Craft Construct, wood shape, barkskin, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 4,000 gp; Cost 2,500 gp + 120 XP.

Click the link above to see the CC version.


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

It's about the same as the CC wood golem in power, I guess, so natural +12 to +15 would work for me.

The lesser wood golem construction is probably a good place to start.  The figurine underbar should reflect this somehow and have an additional bit.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Rather than burying the pre-golem in the earth, how about soaking it in saltwater instead?


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> It's about the same as the CC wood golem in power,  I guess, so natural +12 to +15 would work for me.
> 
> The lesser wood golem construction is probably a good place to start.   The figurine underbar should reflect this somehow and have an additional  bit.




+12 Natural Armour would suit me.



Shade said:


> Rather than burying the pre-golem in the earth, how about soaking it in saltwater instead?




That certainly sticks to our nautical theme far better than burying it. I approve!

As for the _figurine of wondrous power_ idea that does seem the obvious approach to the original version. I think we'd better stat up both versions though. All _figurines of wondrous power_ have _animate objects_ as a prereq, so I think we should include that.

Here's a first stab.

*Construction
*A wooden lady's body must be crafted from a single block of high-quality wood  weighing at least 800 pounds that has been soaked in seawater treated with exotic oils and herbal preparations for  at least a week. These materials cost at least  1,000 gp. Carving the body requires a DC 15 Craft (woodworking) check or a  DC 15 Craft (carpentry) check.

   CL 9th; Craft Construct, _animate objects_, _geas/quest_, _limited wish_ (or _animate plants_), caster must be at  least 9th level; Price 30,000 gp; Cost 15,500 gp + 1160 XP.

*Wooden Lady Figurine of Wondrous Power*
This tiny figurine, often worn as a pendant, transforms into a Wooden Lady  construct (see above). It can be used twice per week for up to 6 hours per use. After 6 hours, or when the command word is spoken, the Wooden Lady  returns to figurine form.

CL 11th; Craft Construct, _animate objects_, _geas/quest_, _limited wish_, _secret chest_, caster must be at  least 11th level; Price 30,000 gp; Cost 15,500 gp + 1160 XP.

I left out some obvious spells like _plant growth, barkskin_ and _ spike growth  _since these are druid or druid/ranger spells and the Wooden Lady seems  more of an arcane construct than a miracle of nature to me. 

I suppose a "Druid Version" could use _animate plants_, _bull's  strength_, _geas/quest_, _plant growth_ for the spells.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2010)

Fantastic!

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or armada (2-x)

Challenge Rating: 7?

Advancement: 13–24 HD (Large); 25–36 (Huge)?

A wooden lady is x feet tall and weighs around x pounds.  (The CC wood golem is about 8 1/2 feet tall and weighs around 800 pounds.)


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## Cleon (Apr 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fantastic!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Organization: Solitary or armada (2-x)




Not sure about armada, to me that implies a lot of golems with an admiral. How about flotilla (2-4) instead?



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 7?




I would say CR8. It has similar stats and damage to a Flesh Golem but has three more HD, fast healing, and that splinters attack.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 13–24 HD (Large); 25–36 (Huge)?




I was thinking 100-150% HD and then 151-300% HD like a Stone Golem, giving it:

*Advancement:* 13-18 HD (Large); 19-36 (Huge)



Shade said:


> A wooden lady is x feet tall and weighs around x pounds.  (The CC wood golem is about 8 1/2 feet tall and weighs around 800 pounds.)




The height suits me but I think the weight is too high assuming it's shaped like a normal human(oid) lady.

Assuming its a particularly dense wood somewhere about 500 pounds for an 8.5 foot wooden statue would be about right - that roughly scales down to a 5.5 tall 108-115 pounds female made of (somewhat lighter) flesh-and-blood. If the original weight was 800 pounds the same 5 foot 6 inch female would weigh 173-184 pounds, which may be a bit more corpulent than you were aiming for.

So, 8.5 feet tall and 500 pounds.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2010)

If the weight is 500 lb, shouldn't the amount of wood needed to construct it also be about 500 lb, not 60% more?   Otherwise, it looks good.


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2010)

Cleon may have been accounting for what is lost in the whittling, much like the stone golem's raw materials weight 1,000 pounds more to account for what's lost in the chiseling.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2010)

Fine enough then!


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2010)

A pair of andirons support the logs in the fire.  These iron dog statuettes are actually miniature iron golems.  They can separate from the stands when called upon.  They have most of the magical abilities of full-sized iron golems, but are less powerful.

*Firedogs *(2): INT non-; AL N; AC 3; MV 6; HD 12; hp 20; THACO 10; #AT 1; Dmg 1d10; SA breathe poisonous gas once every 7 rounds in 10’ cube directly in front (gas dissipates in one round first three uses, after that, gas no longer dissipates due to enclosed space); SD immune to all forms of poison and mind-based spells, immunity to any weapon except +3 or greater, magical fire reapirs 1 hp damage for each it would have caused; SZ 2’ tall; ML 19; XP 3,000.

The firedogs lack the exceptional Strength of normal iron golems.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #64 (1997).


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2010)

Just downsize an iron golem to Small?  Not sure what else is different, besides the shape.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2010)

Yeah, they're rather unexciting.

I suppose if we wanted to jazz 'em up a bit, we could give 'em track as a bonus feat and a racial bonus on Survival checks.

I'm fine with just making 'em Small iron golems and moving on, though.


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## freyar (Apr 10, 2010)

Track and Survival bonus sounds good.

Since they stand in the fire, perhaps they can do some fire damage also for a time afterwards?  They should be immune to fire, too, I guess.


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Cleon may have been accounting for what is lost in the whittling, much like the stone golem's raw materials weight 1,000 pounds more to account for what's lost in the chiseling.




Yes, that was my reasoning.


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, they're rather unexciting.
> 
> I suppose if we wanted to jazz 'em up a bit, we could give 'em track as a bonus feat and a racial bonus on Survival checks.
> 
> I'm fine with just making 'em Small iron golems and moving on, though.




How about giving them a single bite attack with the Trip special attack ?



freyar said:


> Track and Survival bonus sounds good.




Since they're mindless I'm a bit reluctant to give them this unless there's some evidence they're designed for that task. However, the description makes me suspect they're plain old combat monsters.



freyar said:


> Since they stand in the fire, perhaps they can do some fire damage also  for a time afterwards?  They should be immune to fire, too, I  guess.




It's only a regular log fire, so 15 points of fire resistance would be plenty to protect them.


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

Here's a rough stab at their stats. I decided to make them Medium, since 12 Hit Dice seems too high for a Small Golem. Besides 2' tall is fairly big for a dog. Assuming it's at the shoulder, a sturdy Rotweiler type could easily be that tall and Medium-sized.

*Firedog*
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 12d10+20 (86 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 30 (+20 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 30
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+10
Attack: Bite +15 melee (1d10+7)
Full Attack: Bite +15 melee (1d10+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon [_10 ft. cube of poison gas, 1d4/3d4 Con, Fort DC 16_], trip
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 15/adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., fire resistance 15 or immunity to fire, immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 11, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: — [Survival?]
Feats: — [Track?]
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 10?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 13-17 HD (Medium); 18-24 (Large); 25-36 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

That's reasonable, including the logic on Survival and Track.

What did you think about a little fire damage from the leftover heat of the fire?  Too far from the original?


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Since they stand in the fire, perhaps they can do some fire damage also for a time afterwards?  They should be immune to fire, too, I guess.






Cleon said:


> It's only a regular log fire, so 15 points of fire resistance would be plenty to protect them.




Fire heals 'em, guys.  



Cleon said:


> How about giving them a single bite attack with the Trip special attack ?




Sure!



Cleon said:


> Since they're mindless I'm a bit reluctant to give them this unless there's some evidence they're designed for that task. However, the description makes me suspect they're plain old combat monsters.




Yeah, it doesn't appear they stray far from their fireplace.



freyar said:


> What did you think about a little fire damage from the leftover heat of the fire?  Too far from the original?




I like it.  These things are so boring, that every little bit helps!


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Magical fire heals them in the original text; I'd like at least the immunity to fire damage to extend to mundane fire.

Ok, so bite plus trip, fire damage if they've been standing in a fire.  Start with Cleon's framework, then?


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

Interesting...I'd never thought of it that way.  We've always had iron golems healed by any fires, but the RAW implies otherwise (although it makes no sense whatsoever).

Rather than give 'em fire resistance, then, let's just pull the fire effects from immunity to magic and slap 'em into a catch-all ability like this...

Healed by Flames (Ex): An attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a firedog hit by a fireball gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. The firedog gets no saving throw against fire effects. 

Does that suffice?


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Maybe a cap of 10 temporary hp or something.  Otherwise, they'll just stand in their fires and get a huge stack of hp!

Let's try this...

Flame Bite (Su/Ex?): When a firedog retains any temporary hp from its Healed by Flames abilities, its bite attacks carry heat and deal an extra 1d6? hp of fire damage.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Looks pretty good!  And I don't think they need much else.  CR 10 may be fair, though the hp are a bit low for it, aren't they?


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good!  And I don't think they need much else.  CR 10 may be fair, though the hp are a bit low for it, aren't they?




I'd say Challenge Rating 9. They don't have an Iron Golem's multiple attacks and poison breath.

Healed by Flames looks good. We could make the temp hp cap scale with size - maybe equal to the golem's Construct bonus hps?

*Healed by Flames (Ex):* An attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow  effect on the firedog and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of  damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would  cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any  excess as temporary hit points (to a maximum equal to a Construct's bonus hit points, 20 temporary hit  points for a Medium-sized firedog). For example, a firedog hit by a fireball gains back 6 hit  points if the damage total is 18 points. The firedog gets no saving  throw against fire effects. 

Regardless, Healed by Flames needs to be added to Special Qualities where the "fire resistance 15 or immunity to fire" is.

Apart from that it's just construction. We can use the Iron Golem's with something fire-related instead of _cloudkill _(how about _fire shield_ for the sake of argument) and lower weights and gp values.

Price 50,000 or 60,000 gp? It's somewhere between a Clay and Stone Golem in nastiness.

How about this for a start:

*Construction*
A firedog’s body is sculpted from 600 pounds of pure iron,  smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 1,000 gp.  Assembling the body requires a DC 16 Craft  (armorsmithing) check or a DC 16 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 14th; Craft Construct, _fire shield_, _geas/quest_, _limited wish_, caster must be at least 14th level; Price 150,000 gp; Cost 80,000 gp +  5,600 XP.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2010)

Great idea on using the construct bonus hps.

Updated.

CR 9 is probably workable, but note that they do have the poisonous breath of the larger iron golem.

The construction looks fine to me.

Are we finished?


----------



## freyar (Apr 13, 2010)

Looks good.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Great idea on using the construct bonus hps.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




Oh blast, I must have got confused somewhere. I was sure they didn't have poison breath.

I'm starting to lean towards thinking they are worth CR10.

They have a mighty good AC and DR for a creature with 12 Hit Dice, plus immunity to magic. Not to mention they could be auto-repairing by standing in a fire.

I suspect they would be very hard monsters to kill.

Also, why is their Trip modifier +17? It should just be a +7 bonus from Strength, were does the extra 10 points from?

Oh, and their bite attack and grapple should both be +16 melee, not 15 - 9 BAB plus 7 for Strength. (I think we forgot to change the numbers after upsizing the firedog from Small)


----------



## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## freyar (Apr 14, 2010)

I think so.  We could decrease natural armor a little if we're really fussy, but I think they're ok.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Good dog!

It looks sound to me.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2010)

_In the exact center of the room stands an impressive statue of gleaming brass in the form of a watchful ancient warrior.  Bound in a golden circlet on its brow is a magnificent topaz gem that bathes the room in yellow light._

The statue is actually a brass golem, a weaker version of an iron golem.  The golem will animate and attack under three conditions.

-It is ordered to attack by Irinia or the magic mouth.
-The crystal is removed from its brow.
-It is struck by something capable of damaging it.

As with any golem, the creature attacks fearlessly, attempting to carry out its instructions.  The golem will not pursue intruders out of the library.

*Brass Golem:* INT non-; AL N; AC 4; MV 6; HD 16; hp 70; THACO 5; #AT 1; Dmg 5-30; SA breathes a stinking cloud in a 10’ cube once per five rounds; SD +2 or better weapon to hit; immune to poison, hold, charm,fear, and all mind-based spells; electrical attacks cause 1 hp damage and slow it for three rounds; magical fire and cold attacks cause half damage; magical darkness deactivates the golem for one round; SZ L; ML 20; XP 12,000.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #45 (1994).

This differs from the brass sentinel golem from Polyhedron and the brass (minotaur) golem in MM2.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2010)

Not a whole lot to work with here, but I'm thinking we could do some light-based powers centered on the (removable?) gem stone.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

The crystal was apparently important to the adventure, and not really a function of the golem.  However, I'm more than happy to try to incorporate it for our genericized brass golem.

According to Wikipedia, brass also has good acoustic properties (that's one reason why it's used in musical instruments), so we might give it some sort of sonic effect as well.


----------



## freyar (Apr 16, 2010)

Well, let's see what else we've got before we go with the light effects.

The sonic idea is interesting.  Since it attacks if "It is struck by something capable of damaging it," what if we make a sonic retributive type defense SQ?  Then stick with the standard weak iron golem (maybe weaken the breath weapon a little compared to iron, also).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, let's see what else we've got before we go with the light effects.
> 
> The sonic idea is interesting.  Since it attacks if "It is struck by something capable of damaging it," what if we make a sonic retributive type defense SQ?  Then stick with the standard weak iron golem (maybe weaken the breath weapon a little compared to iron, also).




Something like reflects Sonic attacks back at the attacker?


----------



## freyar (Apr 18, 2010)

Well, that would work, but it might happen too rarely to be worth it.  What about if it releases a burst of sonic energy if it's struck with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon (piercing ones hitting it in the wrong fashion to "ring" it)?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 18, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, that would work, but it might happen too rarely to be worth it.  What about if it releases a burst of sonic energy if it's struck with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon (piercing ones hitting it in the wrong fashion to "ring" it)?




Shall we combine the two?

Ringing Retribution (Ex): If a Brass Golem is struck by an attack that does sonic, piercing or bludgeoning damage it resonates with destructive energy, doing sonic damage to everything within a 20-foot burst (DC X Fort save for half damage). The reflected damage equals half the damage rolled for the attack before the golem's DR or magic immunity is applied. The golem's ringing retribution functions even if the attack does not inflict any damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## freyar (Apr 18, 2010)

I like that!


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## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> I like that!




Why thank ye kindly!

Shall we talk about stats now.

It's basically halfway between a SRD Stone and Iron golem, so I'm thinking...

Large 16HD Construct
=>BAB/Grapple +12/+26, Saves +5 Fort, +4 Ref, +5 Will
*Full Attack:* 2 slams +21 melee (2d10+10)
*Abilities:* Str 31, Dex 9, Con --,  Int --,  Wis 11, Cha 1
*Special Qualities:* breath weapon
*Special Qualities:* Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., damage reduction 12/adamantine, low-light vision, resist fire and cold X [*15?*], slowed by lightning, vulnerability to darkness

*Breath Weapon (Su):* 10-foot cube of noxious gas lasting 1 round, once every 1d4+1 rounds. All living creatures within the cloud must succeed at a DC18 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1d4+1 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Slowed by Lightning (Ex):* Electrical attacks do minimum damage to a brass golem (1 point per die) but slow the golem (as per the _slow_ spell) for 1d4 rounds with no saving throw.

*Vulnerability to Darkness (Ex):* Any spell with the Darkness description will render a golem helpless for 1 round if it fails a Fortitude save.


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2010)

Do we want to combine the resistances, slowed by lightning, and vulnerability to darkness into the more traditional immunity to magic?

I'd prefer to keep DR to a round number, ike 10 given the likely CR.  But overall, I like the abilities.


----------



## Shade (Apr 19, 2010)

Ringing retribution looks great!

Definitely a big "YES" to combining into immunity to magic and a standard DR amount.

The other stats look good.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Do we want to combine the resistances, slowed by lightning, and vulnerability to darkness into the more traditional immunity to magic?




Well I suspect it'll be a matter of differing opinion...

I prefer the resistances and vulnerabilities, funnily enough.



freyar said:


> I'd prefer to keep DR to a round number, ike 10 given the likely CR.  But overall, I like the abilities.




But 12 is a rounder number than 10, because it has far more factors.


----------



## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

Since we've essentially made them midpoints between the stone and iron, we might as well have 'em follow the formats of the other two.  Plus, you're currently outvoted 2-to-1. 

Added to Homebrews.

What to do with the "half damage from cold and fire"?   I'm fine with leaving those outside the immunity to magic as resistance to energy x, but if we want to get creative and move them into immunity to magic that works for me as well.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> What to do with the "half damage from cold and fire"?   I'm fine with leaving those outside the immunity to magic as resistance to energy x, but if we want to get creative and move them into immunity to magic that works for me as well.




You mean something like:

*Immunity to Magic (Ex):* A brass golem is immune to any spell or  spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain  spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted  below.

A magical attack that deals electricity damage slows a brass golem (as  the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

Magical cold and magical fire deals half its cold or fire damage to the golem. e.g. an _ice storm_ that does 10 bludgeoning and 7 cold damage would do 3 points of damage to the golem (half the 7 points of cold damage).

If a brass golem is targeted by or within the area of a spell with the  darkness or shadow descriptor, the golem is rendered helpless for 1  round unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save. 

That'd be alright by me.


----------



## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

I wasn't thinking a direct translation, but it gets the job done.  

Updated.

Advancement: x

A brass golem is 10-1/2 feet tall and weighs around x pounds. 

Any other abilities before getting to CR?


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## freyar (Apr 20, 2010)

I'd be fine with breaking resistances out, but this looks good.

17-24 HD (Large), 25-48 HD (Huge) following the iron golem?

I think we're good with abilities, and I'll leave the weight to Cleon.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd be fine with breaking resistances out, but this looks good.
> 
> 17-24 HD (Large), 25-48 HD (Huge) following the iron golem?




That Advancement sound good to me.



freyar said:


> II think we're good with abilities, and I'll leave the weight to Cleon.




Brass is actually about 6-10% heavier than iron (depending on the alloy), since copper is denser.

Assuming it's the same proportions as an Iron Golem but 18 inches shorter, if figures out at about 3600 pounds.


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

CR then?  It's almost but not quite as good as an iron golem, so I'd give it a strong CR 12.


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

Sounds reasonable.

Updated.

Constructon time!

Essentially, take an iron golem's construction, downsize weight and cost, and replace cloudkill with shout?

Something like...

A brass golem’s body is sculpted from 3,600 pounds of copper and zinc, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 7,500 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 19 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 19 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 15th; Craft Construct, geas/quest, limited wish, shout, caster must be at least 15th level; Price 123,000 gp; Cost 65,250 gp + 4,920 XP.


----------



## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

Maybe also add stinking cloud to account for the breath weapon?


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

Sure, that makes sense.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

CR12 sounds good, and it definitely needs _stinking cloud_.

I don't much care for the 123,000gp Price. I'd rather it be 120 or 125. Don't really mind which.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

Fair enough.

Updated.  Finito?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Updated.  Finito?




I believe so except for a couple of little things.

Since it doesn't have Improved Grab I'm assuming the "brass golems *bound* foes with their heavy fists" is a typo.

Also the cost doesn't quite add up - shouldn't it be Price 125,000, Cost 66,250 + XP 4,700 ?


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2010)

Other than Cleon's suggestions, looks good.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2010)

Fixed.

Here's one of the last unconverted golems...

Inside are a dozen short wood golems made by the founding father of the factory, a wizard of far greater skill than any of his descendants.  The golems’ hands are huge round discs, specifically designed to press the cheese.  These fists do 2-12 hp damage (instead of the regular 1-8 hp) when used as weapons, but the golems are clumsy and have a -2 to hit.

*Wood golems (12):* AC 7; HD 2+2; hp 11 each; MV 120’ (40’); #AT 1 huge flat fist; DMG 2-12; Save F1; ML 12; AL N; SD can be hit only by magical weapons, immune to sleep, charm, hold, and magic missile spells as well as all cold, missile fire, and gases; -2 to hit; -1 to initiative; -2 to save against fiery attacks and +1 hp/HD damage from fire; ER/40.
Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #14 (1988).


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2010)

It did seem like we were going through golems pretty fast...

2HD and Medium, I guess.  Dex should be 8 or 9 to account for the -1 to init.

Should we call these something different since there are other wooden and wood goelms?  Like "cheese-press golems" or something?

Immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire.  Keep that separate or wrap that into a normal immunity to magic?  To be honest, I think the only other immunity beyond normal construct immunities is magic missile (I assume gases means poison), so we could do just as well to have immunity to magic missiles and similar spells.

Seems like it should have protection from arrows.

Looks like DR X/magic.  Want to stick with that?  It's reasonable at 2HD.

Should they treat their slams as secondary attacks or improvised weapons or something to account for that -2 to hit?


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## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> 2HD and Medium, I guess.  Dex should be 8 or 9 to account for the -1 to init.




That sounds about right.



freyar said:


> Should we call these something different since there are other wooden and wood goelms?  Like "cheese-press golems" or something?




Yep.  Maybe simply "press golems"?



freyar said:


> Immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire.  Keep that separate or wrap that into a normal immunity to magic?  To be honest, I think the only other immunity beyond normal construct immunities is magic missile (I assume gases means poison), so we could do just as well to have immunity to magic missiles and similar spells.




Yeah, I could see simply immunity to cold and force, vulnerability to fire in this case.



freyar said:


> Seems like it should have protection from arrows.
> 
> Looks like DR X/magic.  Want to stick with that?  It's reasonable at 2HD.




We could go that route, or simplify it to DR x/magic and bludgeoning or slashing.



freyar said:


> Should they treat their slams as secondary attacks or improvised weapons or something to account for that -2 to hit?




I like the usual secondary attack route, like some animals.

i.e. *A camel’s bite is treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the camel’s Strength bonus to the damage roll.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Here's one of the last unconverted golems...




Oh grief, not another golem!

I'd be glad when we finish them so we can do some other types of creature.


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Oh grief, not another golem!
> 
> I'd be glad when we finish them so we can do some other types of creature.




I believe we've about exhausted the true golems, and I'm growing a bit tired of constructs myself.  Now that we've whittled down the unconverted constructs list significantly, I'm ready to move on.  My next target:  magical beasts.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> It did seem like we were going through golems pretty fast...
> 
> 2HD and Medium, I guess.  Dex should be 8 or 9 to account for the -1 to init.




How about using a Medium Animated Object for the basic stats, but switch 2 points from Dexterity to Strength and maybe increase the Wisdom?



freyar said:


> Should we call these something different since there are other wooden and wood goelms?  Like "cheese-press golems" or something?




I'd go for "Wooden Press Golem"



freyar said:


> Immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire.  Keep that separate or wrap that into a normal immunity to magic?  To be honest, I think the only other immunity beyond normal construct immunities is magic missile (I assume gases means poison), so we could do just as well to have immunity to magic missiles and similar spells.
> 
> Seems like it should have protection from arrows.
> 
> Looks like DR X/magic.  Want to stick with that?  It's reasonable at 2HD.






freyar said:


> Should they treat their slams as secondary attacks or improvised weapons or something to account for that -2 to hit?




Doesn't the "These fists do 2-12 hp damage (instead of the regular 1-8 hp) when used  as weapons, but the golems are clumsy and have a -2 to hit." makes me think this is a clear case of an Oversized Weapon.

So, maybe the "press" is the equivalent of an oversized Large heavy mace (2d6 damage, -2 attack).


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I could see simply immunity to cold and force, vulnerability to fire in this case.




How about force resistance 5, which would be enough to block standard magic missiles but leave more powerful force effects like _mage's sword_ as an effective attack?



Shade said:


> We could go that route, or simplify it to DR x/magic and bludgeoning or slashing.




If we use an Animated Object as a template it would have hardness 5 for being wood, in which case slapping DR 5/magic on top would satisfy me.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

Cleon said:


> How about using a Medium Animated Object for the basic stats, but switch 2 points from Dexterity to Strength and maybe increase the Wisdom?



Sounds reasonable.



> I'd go for "Wooden Press Golem"



Works for me!



> Doesn't the "These fists do 2-12 hp damage (instead of the regular 1-8 hp) when used  as weapons, but the golems are clumsy and have a -2 to hit." makes me think this is a clear case of an Oversized Weapon.
> 
> So, maybe the "press" is the equivalent of an oversized Large heavy mace (2d6 damage, -2 attack).




I think that's bringing in too much in the way of extra mechanics.  The secondary attack route should work pretty nicely.



Cleon said:


> How about force resistance 5, which would be enough to block standard magic missiles but leave more powerful force effects like _mage's sword_ as an effective attack?



Is there such a thing as force resistance?  It's not a usual energy type, is it?



> If we use an Animated Object as a template it would have hardness 5 for being wood, in which case slapping DR 5/magic on top would satisfy me.




That could work, though it's a bit unusual.  Shade, what do you think?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2010)

Yeah, no need for oversized weapon, since it is effectively a natural attack.

I'm not sure "resistance to force" is a standard energy type.  Find me an official precedent, and I'll go for it.  

Ditto for the hardness and DR combo.   While I can accept hardness as a SQ here (since animated objects have it), it might get wonky when combined with DR.  Why not "DR 5/magic and bludgeoning or slashing" (or "DR 5/bludgeoning or slashing and magic" if you prefer)?


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm not entirely seeing the DR /bludgeoning or slashing other than as a general thing for wood (and I think we'd need some parentheses in that DR!).  No one else likes protection from arrows as something a little different?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2010)

That's fine.  I just find 3.5 protection from arrows a bit annoying, since it essentially just gives DR anyway (although limited to ranged weapons, which makes little sense).  That was why I thought the bludgeoning and slashing, to rule out arrows and bolts.  Also, it is redundant if we give them a blanket DR x/magic.   But I can live with prot arrows (no limit), assuming we drop the /magic component from the standard DR (which makes perfect sense by golem standards).


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2010)

Oh, you're right.  Should have read the spell!   Let's just drop the arrows bit, then, and just give it DR X/magic.  Seems simplest.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I actually went with the wooden lady's ability scores (downsized to Medium) rather than the Medium animated object, as it seems these things should be a bit stronger.

We still need to figure out what to do with force effects.   Honestly, I don't think a blanket immunity to force is problematic, since they are vulnerable to most everything else.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, no need for oversized weapon, since it is effectively a natural attack.
> 
> I'm not sure "resistance to force" is a standard energy type.  Find me an official precedent, and I'll go for it.
> 
> Ditto for the hardness and DR combo.   While I can accept hardness as a SQ here (since animated objects have it), it might get wonky when combined with DR.  Why not "DR 5/magic and bludgeoning or slashing" (or "DR 5/bludgeoning or slashing and magic" if you prefer)?




If you want to keep it simple I'd rather give them DR 5/magic and immunity to _magic missile_.

Still don't like blanket force immunity for them.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> If you want to keep it simple I'd rather give them DR 5/magic and immunity to _magic missile_.
> 
> Still don't like blanket force immunity for them.




I can live with that, since, odd as it is, there are other creatures that single out magic missile for immunities or vulnerabilities.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2-12) ["press gang"?]

Challenge Rating: 2?  (They have way too many hp for CR 1)

Advancement: 3-6 HD (Medium)?

A wooden press golem is 5 feet tall and weighs around x pounds.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2010)

Press gang is awesome!

CR 2, advancement are good.  100-150 lb?


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## Cleon (May 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> I can live with that, since, odd as it is, there are other creatures that single out magic missile for immunities or vulnerabilities.
> 
> Updated.




I'd drop the * bit from the Attack lines and just have the secondary attack note in the Tactics section. No need to repeat it.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or x (2-12) ["press gang"?]




Well we could just have "gang" and leave the pun as an in-joke.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 2?  (They have way too many hp for CR 1)




Yes, CR2 sounds right. Their DR 5/magic is effective at that level too.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 3-6 HD (Medium)?
> 
> A wooden press golem is 5 feet tall and weighs around x pounds.




Hmm, I would rather they advance to Large - for those golems designed to make really big cheeses. e.g.:

Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium), 5-6 HD (Large)

As for the size and weight, I would think they'd need to be heavy to press stuff down. Maybe 200 pounds?


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

Either way on the org. 

Also either way on advancement, and 200 lb is fine.


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## Shade (May 3, 2010)

Updated.

Ready for Construction?

Do any good "cheesy" spells exist?


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

The 3e calzone golem from the free adventure "Something's Cooking" required burning hands, grease, major creation, and stinking cloud.  I'm not sure that any of those particularly makes sense except major creation.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Ready for Construction?
> 
> Do any good "cheesy" spells exist?




Well there are bad cheesy spells like "stinking cloud" for a particularly pungent gorgonzola, but I don't much fancy them.



freyar said:


> The 3e calzone golem from the free adventure "Something's Cooking" required burning hands, grease, major creation, and stinking cloud.  I'm not sure that any of those particularly makes sense except major creation.




These are pretty simple Constructs, so I don't think they need much in the way of prereqs. I'd only use _minor creation _since they're made of wood and that spell can create objects of "vegetable matter".

Plus _bull's strength_ for their high Str?

I'd have liked to add a "wood spell", but the best SRD examples are Druidic, and I feel we should keep these all arcane.


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## Shade (May 5, 2010)

Minor creation and bull's strength are a good fit.

For the costs and DCs, the only other CR 2 golem I've found is the wax golem.  (CL 5th; Craft Construct, alter self, endure elements, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 2,500 gp; Cost 1,500 gp + 80 XP; 500 gp reagents; DC 15 checks).

The CR 3 wood golem from Dragon Magazine #341 is as follows...

A wood golem's body must be crafted from 350 pounds of high-quality wood and treated with exotic oils and herbal preparations costing at least 1,000 gp. Carving the body requires a DC 15 Craft (sculpting) check. The golem must then be buried beneath the earth in an area containing a large number of trees or plants for one week.

   CL 5th; Craft Construct, wood shape, barkskin, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 4,000 gp; Cost 2,500 gp + 120 XP.


So maybe...

A wooden press golem's body must be crafted from 250 pounds of high-quality wood and treated with exotic oils and herbal preparations costing at least 500 gp. Carving the body requires a DC 15 Craft (woodcarving) check.

   CL 5th; Craft Construct, bull's strength, minor creation, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 2,500 gp; Cost 1,500 gp + 80 XP.


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## Cleon (May 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> So maybe...
> 
> A wooden press golem's body must be crafted from 250 pounds of high-quality wood and treated with exotic oils and herbal preparations costing at least 500 gp. Carving the body requires a DC 15 Craft (woodcarving) check.
> 
> CL 5th; Craft Construct, bull's strength, minor creation, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 2,500 gp; Cost 1,500 gp + 80 XP.




Hmm. I think the material are a bit costly, I'd prefer 250 gp for the oils & herbs.

Craft DC15 also seems a bit high, that makes them harder to assemble  than the Craft DC13 Flesh Golem! Drop it to DC12?

Finally, the SRD Shield Guardian has Craft (carpentry) as a prereq, so I'd prefer the Wooden Press Golem to use that craft skill over woodcarving, or we could just list both.

That would make the construction:

A wooden press golem's body must be crafted from 250 pounds of  high-quality wood and treated with exotic oils and herbal preparations  costing at least 250 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 12 Craft  (woodcarving) or Craft (carpentry) check.

   CL 5th; Craft Construct, _bull's strength_, _minor creation_, caster must  be at least 5th level; Price 2,500 gp; Cost 1,375 gp + 90 XP.


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## freyar (May 10, 2010)

Just go with "or" for the Craft checks, and we're good to go, I think.


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## Shade (May 10, 2010)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## freyar (May 11, 2010)

Looks ok at a quick glance.


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## Cleon (May 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Looks that way!


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2010)

*The White Boar (of Kilfay)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Woodland/Any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (14)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 9 (72 hit points)
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
SIZE: M (5’ tall at shoulder)
MORALE: Fanatic (20)
XP VALUE: 5,000

As explained in this adventure, the white boar was specially created by the Celtic deities to house the spirit of a godlike avatar sent do destroy Shivnar and his monstrous creation, the bulette-mutation.  It resembles a huge member of the boar family, though it remains a solitary creature and normal boars will have nothing to do with it, even attacking their keepers to run away from it if necessary.

Combat:  The white boar attacks in the manner of its form, biting and ripping with its tusks, though it does not hare the wild boar’s ability to fight into negative hit points.  However, it requires a +2 or better weapon to cut through the monster’s hide, so it is somewhat better off than the creature it was modeled after.  It uses its human-like intelligence to progress toward its goal—the destruction of Shivnar’s creation—and the DM should play it accordingly when the PCs encounter it.

Habitat/Society:  The white boar remains a solitary creature in this adventure.  If the spirit inhabiting its body has another social order on its own plane, that is a matter beyond the scope of this module.

Ecology:  The white boar, being a unique creature, exists only as long as the bulette-mutation remains alive, or until the boar itself is slain in combat.  It has no place in the natural order of the forest.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #37 (1992).


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2010)

This could use a little jazzing up perhaps.

First of all, magical beast or outsider?  9 HD, or 72 hp/4.5?  I think I favor the latter in both cases: 16 HD Medium Outsider (though maybe a 5 ft tall boar is Large).  I wonder if some of the aspects might be decent inspiration if we decide to add a few abilities.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

I can sign on for all that.  And yes, I think 5' tall at the shoulder qualifies for Large.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2010)

Sounds good.  Seems like it should have a hefty amount of DR.  It would be DR/magic, but I think that's not very useful at that HD scale.  Unfortunately, it's N, so the alignment-based DRs don't work either.  Any better ideas?


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> This could use a little jazzing up perhaps.
> 
> First of all, magical beast or outsider?  9 HD, or 72 hp/4.5?  I think I favor the latter in both cases: 16 HD Medium Outsider (though maybe a 5 ft tall boar is Large).  I wonder if some of the aspects might be decent inspiration if we decide to add a few abilities.




Fine by me, 9 Hit Dice did seem a bit few for a "godlike avatar".

What divine characteristics do you feel are appropriate?

A Quasi-Deity gets:

Immortality
DR 10/epic
Immunity to Transmutation, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage and Mind-Affecting Effects
Energy Resistance 5 and Spell Resistance 32

Do any of the Salient Divine Abilities look appropriate for its role of finding and destroying this Bulette monster?

In any case, most those Quasi-Deity SQs look too meaty for a 16HD creature, so we should either trim them down a bit or increase its Hit Dice (24HD?).


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

Let's try to keep it at 16 HD, and see how it develops.

Despite being less than 20 HD, I could see giving it DR/epic in this case.  It's essentially DR/- at that level, but barbarians and some critters have that ability.

Let's keep the SR at CR+11 (50%) like the original

Immunity to Transmutation makes good sense, but we can skip the rest of those immunities.

Energy Resistance 5 seems quite plausible.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's try to keep it at 16 HD, and see how it develops.
> 
> Despite being less than 20 HD, I could see giving it DR/epic in this case.  It's essentially DR/- at that level, but barbarians and some critters have that ability.
> 
> ...




That's reasonable.

I'd like to give it the Immortality trait as well, more for flavour than functionality.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

Sure, I'll go for that.   Let's figure out ability scores.  Here are similar creatures:

Dire Boar (L): Str 27, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Razor Boar (L): Str 27, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 9
Nightmare Beast (H): Str 28, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11
Fhorge (L): Str 29, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2010)

Well, I'd go for the high end for all those: Str 29, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15?  Possibly boost Wis and Cha some more, too.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sure, I'll go for that.   Let's figure out ability scores.  Here are similar creatures:
> 
> Dire Boar (L): Str 27, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
> Razor Boar (L): Str 27, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 9
> ...




How about taking the highest of those and applying the "Half-Celestial" template's ability bonuses of Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4?

Highest: Str 29, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 11
Celestialised: Str 33, Dex 15, Con 28, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 15

I'd increase the Charisma a bit from that. Maybe 18?

The White Boar: Str 33, Dex 15, Con 28, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 18


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




Looks a sound start.

What do you fancy for Special Attacks.

Some kind of charge-based attack?

Trample?

Improved critical from supernaturally sharp tusks?


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2010)

I'm not sure it needs any special attacks, but I could go for augmented critical.

We might give it a "locate creature" type ability so it can always locate its nemesis.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm not sure it needs any special attacks, but I could go for augmented critical.




Yes it doesn't have any special attacks listed, I just felt it needed jazzing up a bit.

Augmented Critical will do - expanded threat range, increased multiple, or both?



Shade said:


> We might give it a "locate creature" type ability so it can always locate its nemesis.




Yes that makes sense.

Are we doing something with this:



> normal boars will have nothing to do with it, even attacking their keepers to run away from it if necessary.


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## freyar (Jul 26, 2010)

Maybe both on augmented crit.

We could beef up the "nemesis" ability to include a way to smite or bypass the DR of its nemesis (or something similar).

The thing about the normal boars reminds me of a wraith's unnatural aura, but that feels weird for a critter like this.  I'm not sure what to make of it.


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## Shade (Jul 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Maybe both on augmented crit.




Let's go with the common 18-20/x3.



freyar said:


> We could beef up the "nemesis" ability to include a way to smite or bypass the DR of its nemesis (or something similar).




Not a bad idea.  We might give it favored enemy as well.



freyar said:


> The thing about the normal boars reminds me of a wraith's unnatural aura, but that feels weird for a critter like this.  I'm not sure what to make of it.




The wraith's aura seems a good fit, as long as we limit it to boars.


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's go with the common 18-20/x3.
> 
> Not a bad idea.  We might give it favored enemy as well.
> 
> The wraith's aura seems a good fit, as long as we limit it to boars.




Okay, how about these:

*Nemesis (Ex):* The white boar was created to destroy a specific foe, some individual or race who have offended the powers of nature. When attacking this foe it ignores any damage reduction or hardness the foe may possess. Furthermore, the boar gains a +X bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against its foe, and likewise gets a +X bonus on weapon damage rolls against such opponents. 

+6 for the bonus?

*Unnatural Aura (Ex):* The white boar creates an unnatural aura that terrifies all pigs and swine, including both porcine animals and magical beasts (such as Razor Boars). No pig, wild or domesticated, will willingly approach  nearer than 30 feet to the white boar, and panics if forced to do so (Pigs that are animals are allowed no saving throw, but magical beasts get a DC X Will save to merely be shaken); they remain panicked or shaken as long as they are within that range.


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## Shade (Jul 27, 2010)

Looks great, and +6 seems reasonable.  I wouldn't mind adding a "smite nemesis" ability as well.


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## freyar (Jul 27, 2010)

It looks pretty good as it is.  Isn't the damage bonus already most of the smite?


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looks great, and +6 seems reasonable.  I wouldn't mind adding a "smite nemesis" ability as well.




That'd be pretty straightforward, just swapping the names would give:

*Smite Nemesis (Su):* Once per day, the white boar can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against its nemesis.

I think I'll cut the max HD - it is a divine creation, after all - and add a note that its normal nemesis damage bonus also applies:

*Smite Nemesis (Su):* Once per day, the white boar can make a normal melee  attack against  its nemesis that deals extra damage equal to its HD (Typically +22 damage, which includes the +6 damage bonus from its nemesis ability).

That said, just the Nemesis ability is enough as far as I'm concerned.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm content to leave off the smite as well.

Updated.

Locate creature 1/day to locate its nemesis only?  Give it Track and high Survival as well for when it gets close?

Skills: 5 at 19 ranks

Feats: 6 (dire boars have Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will)


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm content to leave off the smite as well.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




Track and Survival are fine by me.

Knowledge (nature), Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Survival ?



Shade said:


> Feats: 6 (dire boars have Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will)




Would a Razor Boar's Alertness, Awesome Blow, Diehard, Endurance,
Improved Bull Rush and Power Attack do?

We'd need to add Track as a bonus feat, of course.


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2010)

All that would work for me.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2010)

Updated.

Extraplanar?

Environment: Temperate forests (or deity's home plane)?

Challenge Rating: x

Alignment: Always neutral?

Advancement: x


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## Cleon (Jul 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Extraplanar?




Since they're created by the powers of Nature it doesn't feel right to have them banished from the Prime Material. How about they are considered Native to both the Prime Material and the Outlands?



Shade said:


> Environment: Temperate forests (or deity's home plane)?




Temperate forests or the Outlands?



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x




Challenge Rating 10?

The CR 10 Razor Boar has fast healing, vorpal tusks and trample and 5 points more AC. The White Boar has better stats, a good Will save, more DR and almost twice as many hit points.

Hard to say, but they seem in roughly the same cricket pitch.



Shade said:


> Alignment: Always neutral?




Definitely!



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




Based on the Razor Boar, how about: 17-32 HD (Large); 33-48 HD (Huge) ?


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Since they're created by the powers of Nature it doesn't feel right to have them banished from the Prime Material. How about they are considered Native to both the Prime Material and the Outlands?




That sounds a bit wonky, as extraplanar creatures are always native on their own plane.  Let's just pick one or the other.

The rest sounds good.

I just realized we never wrote up its immortal trait.  Here's what we gave Ma Yuan...

Immortal (Ex): Ma Yuan is naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. He does not age, and does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. Ma Yuan is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), polymorphing, petrification, or any form-altering attack. Ma Yuan is not subject to death from massive damage, energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage. 

Should we just cut it off after "eat, sleep, or breathe."?


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> That sounds a bit wonky, as extraplanar creatures are always native on their own plane.  Let's just pick one or the other.




I was thinking of the way a ghost is native to both the Ethereal and Prime Material.

If you insist on one or t'other I think it had better be a Native Outsider so it can't get banished off the Prime Material.



Shade said:


> The rest sounds good.
> 
> I just realized we never wrote up its immortal trait.  Here's what we gave Ma Yuan...
> 
> ...




That suits me. I was thinking of the Divine Power Immortality, which begins with those first two sentences.
*
Immortality (Ex):* The white boar is naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. The white boar does not age, and does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2010)

I also like native outsider, as if it's created by the deity directly on the Material plane.

Immortality seems good.  And the other suggestions do, too.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

So are we just left with the description, flavour text and tactics?


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2010)

I suppose so!


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> I suppose so!




Would you like to do the honours?


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2010)

You're so much better at description and flavor than I am...

Here are some tactics, though:

The White Boar pursues its nemesis single-mindedly, ignoring other foes unless they obstruct that goal.  Nonetheless, the Boar evaluates other threats shrewdly and will attack other opponents or even retreat if those tactics will empower the destruction of its nemesis later.

The White Boar closes to melee with its nemesis as quickly as possible in order to use its devastating gore attack, and it uses Power Attack as much as possible without unduly sacrificing the ability to hit its nemesis.


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> You're so much better at description and flavor than I am...




Okay, I'll see what I can do.



freyar said:


> Here are some tactics, though:
> 
> The White Boar pursues its nemesis single-mindedly, ignoring other foes unless they obstruct that goal.  Nonetheless, the Boar evaluates other threats shrewdly and will attack other opponents or even retreat if those tactics will empower the destruction of its nemesis later.
> 
> The White Boar closes to melee with its nemesis as quickly as possible in order to use its devastating gore attack, and it uses Power Attack as much as possible without unduly sacrificing the ability to hit its nemesis.




The Power Attack bit seems a bit surplus to requirements, but apart from that it looks good.

How's this:

_A wild boar as big as a bison, with hide as ivory-white as its tusks._

The White Boar is a creature specially created by deities of nature to destroy some offense against nature,such as an unnatural abomination and the wizard who created it.

The white boar is about 10 feet long and stands 5 feet at the shoulder, it weighs about 1000 pounds.

The White Boar understands Sylvan,  but can not speak it.

*Combat*
The White Boar pursues its nemesis single-mindedly, ignoring other foes  unless they obstruct that goal.  Nonetheless, the Boar evaluates other  threats shrewdly and will attack other opponents or even retreat if  those tactics will empower the destruction of its nemesis later. It uses Awesome Blow or Improved Bull Rush to force its way through any opponent obstructing the path to its nemesis.

The White Boar closes to melee with its nemesis as quickly as possible in order to use its devastating gore attack, augmented with Power Attack if that is advantageous.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

That looks pretty good!  I like the addition of Awesome Blow and IBR!


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking of the way a ghost is native to both the Ethereal and Prime Material.
> 
> If you insist on one or t'other I think it had better be a Native Outsider so it can't get banished off the Prime Material.






freyar said:


> I also like native outsider, as if it's created by the deity directly on the Material plane.




It's currently a magical beast, so the Native subtype is unnecessary.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

Oh, yeah, right.


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> It's currently a magical beast, so the Native subtype is unnecessary.
> 
> Updated.




Hadn't we already settled that point?

Anyhow, old Whitey-Tuskey looks done to me.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

And here's its nemesis...

*The Bulette-Mutation*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate/Any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2/4/6
MOVEMENT: 14, burrow 3
HIT DICE: 10 (73 hit points)
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4d12/3d6/3d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: 8’ jump, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9-1/2’ tall, 12’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 5,000

The monster described in this module is identical to the bulette of the Monstrous Compendium and is derived from the original creature by magical and biological experimentation by the wizard Shivnar.

Combat:  Like a normal bulette, the mutated variety attacks anything it considers edible.  However, in addition to to its bite and front claw attacks, there is a 65% chace per round of combat with a foe that has actually caused it to lose hit points that the mutated monster will breath a cone of fire 20’ long, with a base diameter of 5’, that does 3-18 hp damage (save vs. breath weapon for half damage).  The creature has been given venom glands by Shivnar to enable it to breathe fire, and it can use this attack up to four times per day.

Like the normal bulette, the mutated variety has AC -2 around its heavily fortified head, AC 6 in the vulnerable area beneath its crest, and AC 4 in the tiny area of the orbits of its eyes.  When injured or cornered, it may also jump up to 8’, employing its rear feet in attacking.  It doesn’t employ its breath weapon in the same round that it jumps.
Habitat/Society:  If this specimen escapes from Shivnar’s lair, it may, at the DM’s option, meet with others of its kind and produce offspring.  In this unlikely event, half of any young will be normal bulettes, the other 50% will be identical to Shivnar’s creation.

It conforms to normal bulettes with regard to territory and disposition.

Ecology:  If the beast is released into Kilfay, it isn’t long before large tracts of woodland are either undermined or destroyed by fire.  In 1-3 weeks, if not slain, it moves into the area of Talvli to hunt the humans and their livestock, burning houses and toppling forts as it tunnels about the land.  If slain, its armor may be fashioned into suitable shields as outlined in the Monstrous Compendium.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #37 (1992).


Not terribly exciting, eh?


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

Take a bulette, boost it a few HD, and give it a breath weapon similar to a hell hound?


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> And here's its nemesis...
> 
> *The Bulette-Mutation*
> *SNIP*
> ...




That's... rather underwhelming for something that's supposedly a Terrible Threat To Nature.

Hmm, it says it can breathe fire due to modified "venom glands". Perhaps it has a poisonous bite, or produces a poisonous vapour.

This poison could be especially potent against plants, killing any vegetation in its vicinity, Maybe this venom works through the ground, so it can kill a tree by merely burrowing near it?

Also, we've given the White Boar an ability to ignore and DR its nemesis might have, so how about we give the Bulette some impressive DR so old Whitey-Tuskey actually has a use for that power?


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Okay, reading the Ecology entry it seems the Bulette-Mutation's main threat to nature is that it burns down or undermines trees and passes on these habits to half its offspring.

It can also burn down houses and topple forts.

That suggests it has some kind of undermining attack where it can burrow beneath something and cause it damage.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

Cleon said:


> That's... rather underwhelming for something that's supposedly a Terrible Threat To Nature.




It sure is. 



Cleon said:


> Hmm, it says it can breathe fire due to modified "venom glands". Perhaps it has a poisonous bite, or produces a poisonous vapour.
> 
> This poison could be especially potent against plants, killing any vegetation in its vicinity, Maybe this venom works through the ground, so it can kill a tree by merely burrowing near it?




Since the "venom glands" produce fire, how about, rather than poison, the bite deals lingering fire (and/or acid) damage, and deals double damage (or a die higher) damage to plants?



Cleon said:


> Also, we've given the White Boar an ability to ignore and DR its nemesis might have, so how about we give the Bulette some impressive DR so old Whitey-Tuskey actually has a use for that power?




Good call.  DR /magic or /-?



Cleon said:


> Okay, reading the Ecology entry it seems the Bulette-Mutation's main threat to nature is that it burns down or undermines trees and passes on these habits to half its offspring.
> 
> It can also burn down houses and topple forts.
> 
> That suggests it has some kind of undermining attack where it can burrow beneath something and cause it damage.




I like it!  Here's a stab at a rough draft...

Undermine (Ex):  A burrowing bulette-mutation that passes beneath a structure deals damage as if it were actively making a sunder attack against the structure.   If the bulette-mutation makes a full attack against an object or structure while burrowing, it deals double damage.

A burrowing bulette-mutation also damages plants it passes beneath.  An affected plant creature takes xd6 points of damage and may attempt a DC X Fortitude saving throw for half damage. A plant that isn’t a creature doesn’t receive a save and immediately withers and dies.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


I borrowed the second paragraph from the blight spell.  Is that too powerful?


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## Mortis (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Since the "venom glands" produce fire, how about, rather than poison, the bite deals lingering fire (and/or acid) damage, and deals double damage (or a die higher) damage to plants?



Something like napalm (based on alchemist's fire?)

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

Mortis said:


> Something like napalm (based on alchemist's fire?)




Yeah, that's a good basis.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Since the "venom glands" produce fire, how about, rather than poison, the bite deals lingering fire (and/or acid) damage, and deals double damage (or a die higher) damage to plants?




Good idea. I think I prefer acid over poison.

Hmm... hows about its breath does half acid and half poison, with lingering acid, and the acid damage is boosted against Plants.



Shade said:


> Good call.  DR /magic or /-?




I was thinking DR 5/- or thereabouts.



Shade said:


> I like it!  Here's a stab at a rough draft...
> 
> Undermine (Ex):  A burrowing bulette-mutation that passes beneath a structure deals damage as if it were actively making a sunder attack against the structure.   If the bulette-mutation makes a full attack against an object or structure while burrowing, it deals double damage.
> 
> ...




I was thinking it should damage plants that are rooted in the ground, by toppling them or destroying their roots.

Something like:

*Undermine (Ex):* The bulette-mutation can disrupt creatures and structure on the surface of the earth by burrowing beneath them. If it  burrows beneath a creature smaller than itself, that creature must make a DC X Reflex save or fall prone. Creatures its own size or larger are unaffected. The save DC is Constitution-based?

A burrowing bulette-mutation that passes beneath a  structure deals xdx damage against the structure.   If the bulette-mutation makes a full attack  against an object or structure while burrowing, it deals double damage.

A burrowing bulette-mutation can also damage plants rooted in the ground, doing the same amount of damage as it does to structures. Rooted plant creatures may attempt a DC X  Fortitude saving throw for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2010)

I'd boost the HD and DR a bit myself.  

I like the idea of a fire poison, and Cleon's undermine looks very interesting.


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## Cleon (Aug 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd boost the HD and DR a bit myself.
> 
> I like the idea of a fire poison, and Cleon's undermine looks very interesting.




I wondered about that, but shouldn't it have low enough HD for the 15 HD White Boar to have a good chance of beating, otherwise those Nature Gods are going to look kind of foolish setting Whitey-Tuskey on him.

Also, the White Boar had to deal with the Bulette-Mutation's arcane master too.

For an alternative way of thinking about it, maybe this 10 HD version is just _*a*_ Bulette-Mutation, a cross between a regular Bulette and the original sample.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I added some rough drafts of the breath weapon and burning bite.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2010)

The rough drafts are pretty good, though maybe we should either say what neutralizes the burning bite or get rid of that part.


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> The rough drafts are pretty good, though maybe we should either say what neutralizes the burning bite or get rid of that part.




I'm fine with either option.  I lifted the text straight from the acid arrow spell, which I presume worded it that way due to the lack of core spells that neutralize acid.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with either option.  I lifted the text straight from the acid arrow spell, which I presume worded it that way due to the lack of core spells that neutralize acid.



I'd either allow a Fort save to avoid the second round damage or just make it automatic.  Leaning toward making it automatic.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd either allow a Fort save to avoid the second round damage or just make it automatic.  Leaning toward making it automatic.




I'd make the damage automatic and have it do more damage against Plant creatures - how about d10s instead of d6s?


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2010)

The acid already does 1d8 to plants.  What if we also bump the fire to 1d8?

Automatic damage it is.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> The acid already does 1d8 to plants.  What if we also bump the fire to 1d8?
> 
> Automatic damage it is.




I wouldn't increase the fire damage, since I imagine it's just plain fire. However, 1d8 acid vs plants is only a point extra damage on average, and I'd like a little more, since these creatures are supposed to devastate forests.

Hence I was thinking 1d10 or doubling the acid damage vs plants, something like:

*Breath Weapon (Su):* 20-foot cone, once every 2d4 rounds, damage 3d6,  half acid and half fire, Reflex DC 20 half. This breath is especially  devastating to plant creatures, which instead take *3d10* points of damage.   The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Burning Bite (Su):* A bulette-mutation deals an extra 1d6 points of fire  damage and 1d6 points of acid damage every time it bites an opponent.   Unless somehow neutralized, the burning lasts for another round, dealing  another 1d6 points of fire damage and 1d6 points of acid damage in that  round.  The acid is especially devastating to plant creatures, which  instead take *2d6* points of acid damage.


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## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

That works for me.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> That works for me.
> 
> Updated.




That about does it for the Special Abilities I think.

Put the extra skill point in Spot?

Same "Solitary or pair" organisation as a standard Bulette?

Challenge Rating 8, since they're meaner than a regular CR 7 Bulette?

Oh, and can we increase the bite damage? The _Dungeon 37_ version has a bite which does 4d12 damage instead of a standard 2E Bulette's 4d6.

3d8 or 2d12 damage instead of 2d8?

While my dodecahedraphilia tempts me with the 2d12, I think I prefer the 3d8.


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## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

I would leap at d12s, but will tend to agree with your assessment.  

Updated.

Standard bulettes lack length and weight.  Do we want to leave them off as well, or try to come up with something?

We made the smaller gohlbrorn 5-7 feet long and 5 feet high, and 450-500 pounds.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> I would leap at d12s, but will tend to agree with your assessment.
> 
> Updated.




Hold on, I've just checked the Monstrous Manual and their bulette has a 4-48 damage bite too. Maybe I was thinking of the 1st edition version?

Still, I quite like it with a 3d8 bite, so shall we keep it?



Shade said:


> Standard bulettes lack length and weight.  Do we want to leave them off as well, or try to come up with something?
> 
> We made the smaller gohlbrorn 5-7 feet long and 5 feet high, and 450-500 pounds.




That might mean something if I could remember what a Gohlbrorn was...

Oh yes, the beast from the Illithiad. Those weights seem OK to me. Gohlbrorn and bulette's are hefty creatures after all, and I'd guess they weigh about as much as an equivalent sized boar - around 500 pounds for a 6 foot long one.

A 12-foot bulette should weigh 8 times that much, or 3600-4000 pounds. Round it to 3500-4000 pounds?

We've already got the average length (12 feet) and height (9.5 feet).

"A typical bulette-mutation is 12 feet long, 9½ feet high, and weighs 3500 to 4000 pounds".


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## freyar (Aug 30, 2010)

I'll take Cleon's size and weight and call it done.


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## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'll take Cleon's size and weight and call it done.




A few little things to fix.

The Undermine special attack doesn't have a damage. Structures have a lot of hit points, so something like 3d12+16, or double that with a full attack?

Also, the description has "and as such is a great threat to farmers and *ruids*.   Because the  bulette-mutation was able to breed with regular bulettes, its kind has * propogated*."

I suspect the first word's missing a "d" (unless it's a monster I'm unfamiliar with ).

Propagated has two "a"s, not two "o"s.


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

Ruids are druids who dwell in ruins.  

Fixed.


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## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> Ruids are druids who dwell in ruins.




Oh, I remember those Ruinous Druids from Slainé.



Shade said:


> Fixed.




Looks done then!


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

We might as well get these off the docket...

*Undead-puppets (8):* INT non-; AL N; AC 7; MV 12; HD 1; hp 6 each; THACO 19; #AT 1; Dmg 1-6; SD see below; MR nil; SZ M; ML special; XP 65; MM/315.

Undead are immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based spells.  They never check morale.

Jerretiere uses her animate dead ability to animate the warrior-puppets, recreating them into undead.  Even if the PCs have already encountered and destroyed the puppets, the shattered parts are rejoined and rise as 1 HD undead.  If still attached to their machine, they break free of their wires before attacking.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #64 (1997).

The puppets to which it refers are these:
Creature Catalog - Preview Creature
Creature Catalog - Preview Creature
Creature Catalog - Preview Creature


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> We might as well get these off the docket...
> 
> *Undead-puppets (8):* INT non-; AL N; AC 7; MV 12; HD 1; hp 6 each; THACO 19; #AT 1; Dmg 1-6; SD see below; MR nil; SZ M; ML special; XP 65; MM/315.




So 1HD Small Construct with Tomb Tainted I guess.

They look like mindless zombie-like creatures with a 1d6 slam attack.

Not much to them, really.


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2010)

That sounds about right.  Retain the berserk from the other three puppets?


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> That sounds about right.  Retain the berserk from the other three puppets?




Sure, why not. Shall we keep the immunity to electricity as well?

I'd drop the Dex a lot to account for the poor AC.

That would give us something like this:

Puppet, Zombie
Small Construct
Hit Dice: 1d10+10 (15 hp)
Initiative: -3
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 size, -3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-3
Attack: Slam +2 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: 2 slams +2 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: ---
Special Qualities: Berserk, construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity, low-light vision, tomb tainted
Saves: Fort +0, Ref -3, Will +0
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 5, Con -, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 14
Skills: ---
Feats: ---
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary, pair, or gang (3-4)
Challenge Rating: _*1?*_
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

*Berserk (Ex):* When a zombie puppet enters combat, there is a  cumulative 1% chance each round that its elemental spirit breaks free  and the golem goes berserk. The uncontrolled puppet goes on a rampage,  attacking the nearest living creature or smashing some object smaller  than itself if no creature is within reach, then moving on to spread  more destruction. The puppet's creator, if within 60 feet, can try to  regain control by speaking firmly and persuasively to the puppet, which  requires a DC 19 Charisma check. It takes 1 minute of inactivity by the  puppet to reset the puppet's berserk chance to 0%


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

I'm assuming the "Int 6" is a typo, since they're mindless.  

I'll add 'em to Homebrews.

Do we want to give 'em anything else, or are these essentially done already?


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm assuming the "Int 6" is a typo, since they're mindless.




More like "forgot to cut it out after copy-n-pasting the Stun Puppet".



Shade said:


> I'll add 'em to Homebrews.
> 
> Do we want to give 'em anything else, or are these essentially done already?




I was thinking of increasing the speed to 30 ft., since the original had Move 12, but apart from that they look finished to me.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

Speed boosted.

Here's the next not-that-much-to-it creature...

*Undead Trophy Heads (12):* INT 0; AL N; AC 8; MV 0; HD 1/2; hp 2 each; THACO 20; #AT 1; Dmg 1-2; MR nil; SZ S; ML special; XP 15.

The heads are attached to the walls and have little range of movement.  They attack with horns, antlers, or teeth.  They are immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based spells.  They never check morale.

Jerretiere uses her animate dead ability to animate the trophy heads lining the walls.  Although the heads have little value as attacking monsters, PCs witnessing the animated heads must make a horror check.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #64 (1997).


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2010)

Not much to go here.

Immobile, tiny half-hit dice undead with a bite attack and some kind of fear special attack.

Heck, if they're Tiny and immobile the PCs would have to walk into their square to bite them. Let's either increase their Reach or make them Small.


----------



## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

To make 'em more intersting, we could allow them to fly, and just assume these are "tethered".

Imagine a far less deadly vargouille...


----------



## Cleon (Sep 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> To make 'em more intersting, we could allow them to fly, and just assume these are "tethered".
> 
> Imagine a far less deadly vargouille...




OK by me.

How's this for a start:

*Undead Trophy Head*
Small Undead
*Hit Dice:* ½d12 (3 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* Fly 30 ft. (6 squares)(perfect)
*Armor Class:* 13 (+1 size, +2 Dex) touch 13, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-6
*Attack:* Bite +3 melee (1d6-2)
*Full Attack:* Bite +3 melee (1d6-2)
 *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* "Horrifying Appearance"
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., flight, undead traits
*Saves:* Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 7, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 14
*Skills:* —
*Feats:* Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Any?
*Organization:* ?
*Challenge Rating:* 1/3?
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral evil?
*Advancement:* 2 HD (Small); 3 HD (Medium) ?
*Level Adjustment:* —
*
Combat

Flight (Su):* An undead trophy head can cease or resume flight as a free action. A head that loses this ability falls and can perform only a single action (either a move action or an attack action) each round.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2010)

That's a good start.

Since it only has one gimmick, I'd prefer the "horror check" be worse than simply shaken.  How about panicked for 1d4+4 rounds?

I'd like to note in the combat section that some have gore attacks instead of bites, since that was noted in the brief original writeup.


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## Cleon (Sep 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's a good start.
> 
> Since it only has one gimmick, I'd prefer the "horror check" be worse than simply shaken.  How about panicked for 1d4+4 rounds?




Certainly we need to boost it. I was thinking frightened/unfazed or panicked/shaken depending on saves and whether the opponent has more HD than the head.

Alternatively, we could make it cumulative - save each round or be shaken, then frightened, then panicked, effects last until X rounds after leaving the area of effect.

I favour the former.



Shade said:


> I'd like to note in the combat section that some have gore attacks instead of bites, since that was noted in the brief original writeup.




Me too!


----------



## Shade (Sep 13, 2010)

Agreed with the former.


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

We can probably just modify this...

Frightful Appearance (Su): A galley beggar can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the beggar attacks, charges, or suddenly appears (usually by dropping its greater invisibility). Creatures within a radius of 60 feet are subject to the effect unless they have more HD than the galley beggar. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC 14 Will save remains immune to that galley beggar's frightful appearance for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with up to half the beggar's HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds, while those with more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> We can probably just modify this...
> 
> Frightful Appearance (Su): A galley beggar can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the beggar attacks, charges, or suddenly appears (usually by dropping its greater invisibility). Creatures within a radius of 60 feet are subject to the effect unless they have more HD than the galley beggar. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC 14 Will save remains immune to that galley beggar's frightful appearance for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with up to half the beggar's HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds, while those with more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.




That's what I was thinking of using. We'd probably need to increase the HD multiplier, probably by a factor of two, since the Trophy Heads are so weak.

*Frightful Appearance (Su):* An undead trophy head can unsettle foes with its  mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the trophy head attacks, charges, or suddenly appears (usually by flying out of hiding). Creatures within a radius of 60 feet are subject  to the effect unless they have more than twice the trophy head's HD. A  potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC 14 Will save remains  immune to that trophy head's frightful appearance for 24 hours. On a  failure,  creatures with equal or fewer HD than the undead trophy head become panicked for  4d6 rounds, while creatures with more HD than the trophy head become shaken for 4d6 rounds. The  save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

Updated.

I realize you left the DC from the previous critter, but I liked it so added a +2 racial bonus to the save DC.  

Shall we give them damage reduction 5/slashing and/or Toughness as a bonus feat like zombies?  I slightly favor the latter only.

CR 1/3?  Even without either of the abilities described above, they still are at least as dangerous as a human warrior skeleton, thanks to their fear and flight.  Adding Toughness would probably cement them at CR 1/3.

Organization: Solitary, pair, or x (3-x)   x=Flight?  

An undead trophy head is about 1 foot in diameter and weighs x pounds. 

An undead trophy head can be created with an animate dead spell, but in addition to all the normal requirements of the spell, the caster must also cast cause fear immediately thereafter?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I realize you left the DC from the previous critter, but I liked it so added a +2 racial bonus to the save DC.




It was entirely deliberate I assure you.

Looks around shiftily to see whether anyone fell for it.



Shade said:


> Shall we give them damage reduction 5/slashing and/or Toughness as a bonus feat like zombies?  I slightly favor the latter only.




I'd like DR 5/bludgeoning plus Toughness. They're basically skulls, so it makes little sense for them to be vulnerable to slashing weapons - you need something to crack them open.



Shade said:


> CR 1/3?  Even without either of the abilities described above, they still are at least as dangerous as a human warrior skeleton, thanks to their fear and flight.  Adding Toughness would probably cement them at CR 1/3.




Give them DR 5/bludgeoning and make them 1/2?



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary, pair, or x (3-x)   x=Flight?




Don't like flight, how about a _display_ of undead trophy heads?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or display (3-18)



Shade said:


> An undead trophy head is about 1 foot in diameter and weighs x pounds.
> 
> An undead trophy head can be created with an animate dead spell, but in addition to all the normal requirements of the spell, the caster must also cast cause fear immediately thereafter?




"about 10 pounds"?

I'd add a level requirement to create them. Maybe 9th level? They are worse than a vanilla skeleton, but not as nasty as a ghoul.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

All that looks good.  However, when I saw 10 pounds for a human skull I went "WHAT?!?"...but then I realized they are Small.   That means they must be giant skulls or those of large animals.  Perhaps we should start them at Diminutive, and allow them to advance all the way to Medium to account for a wide variety of source skulls?


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## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> All that looks good.  However, when I saw 10 pounds for a human skull I went "WHAT?!?"...but then I realized they are Small.   That means they must be giant skulls or those of large animals.  Perhaps we should start them at Diminutive, and allow them to advance all the way to Medium to account for a wide variety of source skulls?




I've already said I prefer keeping them Small so they don't have a Reach of 0 ft. If you want to rationalize it, maybe their creation process magically enlarges (part of) a normal-sized corpse, like the 2E AD&D Giant Skeleton.

Besides, 10 pounds probably isn't that much above what a human head ought to weigh. A back-of-the envelope calculation suggests it weighs about 7 pounds (approximating it as a 6 by 7 by 9 in spheroid made of water), so add a few pounds for a neck-stump and you're there!


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2010)

I can live with 'em being Small, as long as we don't claim they are based off Medium creatures.  We can just say most are created from giant's heads and Large animals.  We can use bison, rhinos, etc. for the gore attack heads.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2010)

Definitely from Large animals.  Big game critters.

Well, this thread has moved along quite quickly...


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2010)

freyar said:


> Definitely from Large animals.  Big game critters.
> 
> Well, this thread has moved along quite quickly...




What about the "magically enlarged" trick.

Just say the creator needs a humanoid head and the spells _animate dead_, _enlarge person_ and _scare_.


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Cleon said:


> What about the "magically enlarged" trick.
> 
> Just say the creator needs a humanoid head and the spells _animate dead_, _enlarge person_ and _scare_.




Nah...I'm not fond of it.  Sorry.

Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Nah...I'm not fond of it.  Sorry.
> 
> Updated.  Finished?




Well there's no accounting for taste.

They're done then, although there's an "and undead trophy head" that should be "an undead trophy head" in *Variant Undead Trophy Heads*.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

Fixed.


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed.




That seems to be it for them then.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

Didn't some thread in General RPG Discussion determine that they should be "thorphy" heads?  Or maybe it was "thorpy."  Hmmm.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

?????  Boggle, boggle.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Didn't some thread in General RPG Discussion determine that they should be "thorphy" heads?  Or maybe it was "thorpy."  Hmmm.




What, "thorpe" as in a small village?

How would that work, make their collective name a "Hamlet"?

Hmm, in that case I suppose a single trophy head is called a "Yoric".


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2010)

Oh, there was some thread with a typo (for trophy) that seemed to become a running gag.  The entire forum was even renamed after it for a day or two (at least).


----------



## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

These next two are probably best converted together...

_Seemingly out of nowhere, another caravan has appeared to the side and slightly ahead of you.  The wind carries with it a foul stench from that direction, and you notice that the camels of the other caravan look extremely skinny and wretched._

*Ghost Mount, Lesser (6):* Int low; AL N; AC 7; MV 21; HD 2; hp 13, 11, 9, 8, 6, 5; THAC0 19; #AT 1; Dmg 1-3; SD undead immunities; SZ L; ML 11; XP 65.  These undead creatures are lesser cousins of the dreaded ghost mount (MC 13).  They have none of the special abilities of real ghoust mounts, but are created in much the same way.

Note:  The lesser ghost mounts in the adventure are camels, ridden by ghuls.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #51 (1995).


*Ghost Mount *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Desert, plains
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 30
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/1-8/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 420

Ghost mounts are undead creatures which can help desperate or foolish travelers cover vast distances, but at a price. These beasts are aptly named, not only for their appearance, but also because those who ride a ghost mount may themselves become ghosts, doomed to wandering the deserts by night. 

A ghost mount has two forms, its true form and an illusory one. A ghost mount’s true form is nothing more than a transparent, glowing outline of its former self (either a horse, a camel, or possibly even an antelope). It appears to be a malnourished, battered, and scarred wreck with wild and shining eyes. A ghost mount can also use powerful illusions to mask its true forms and appear as a particularly strong and handsome specimen of its former self.

Combat: A ghost mount can attack physically with its two hooves and bite, but it usually prefers to allow a rider to mount it and then seeks to use its life energy draining ability to transform the hapless rider into a ghost.

Any creature that rides a ghost mount must make an ability check using Wisdom (at a -2 penalty) when the journey begins. If the check is failed, the mount refuses to obey the rider’s instructions and instead takes him deep into the nearest wilderness at full speed. Leaping from the mount when it is traveling at a gallop causes 3d6 points of damage, and items falling with the rider must make a saving throw against crushing blows. If the rider stays with the ghost mount, it will throw him after traveling at least 75 miles into the wilderness. Being thrown causes 1d6 damage; a saving throw against falling for items carried by the thrown rider must also be made.

If the initial Wisdom ability check is successful, the ghost mount obeys, but the rider must then make a saving throw versus death magic when the journey has reached a middle point. Failure indicates that the ghost mount’s life energy drain has transformed the rider into a wraith. Success indicates that the rider has mastered the ghost mount and may travel with it to his destination. Once the journey is ended, the rider must set the ghost mount free, though he may then summon it to service again whenever he wishes. Later journeys carry the same risks as the first.

Ghost mounts are unaffected by sleep, charm, hold, death, and cold-based magic, and they are immune to poison and paralyzation.  A vial of holy water causes 2-8 points of damage to a ghost mount. A raise dead or resurrection spell will kill a ghost mount if it fails its saving throw versus spell.

Ghost mounts seem to glide just over the ground without ever losing their footing, so they always move at their full movement rate over all forms of terrain. They suffer no penalty due to encumbrance because their undead forms do not suffer from fatigue. They have no need for sleep or rest of any kind. A rider willing to lash himself to the saddle can use a ghost mount to travel as much as 180 miles per day over any terrain in any weather (once control over a ghost mount is established, of course). A rider may also elect to cover only 90 miles per day and sleep at night, even if several days travel are required to reach the destination. During this time, and throughout any number of stops, the ghost mount will continue to obey its rider.

Habitat/Society: Ghost mounts are formed from the spirits of mistreated animals, creatures so brutally handled in life that they survive after death to take vengeance on all creatures who ride them.

Ghost mounts can be summoned by magic, though their lifedraining abilities are not altered if they are called to serve in this fashion. If a mount spell is cast in a region of empty, uncivilized desert or plains, there is a 5% chance that a ghost mount will answer the magical summons.

Ghost mounts are sometimes found among herds of ordinary wild animals, covered in their illusory life forms. In this way they hope to be captured and ridden, thus allowing them to bring more living creatures into the realm of the undead. 

Ecology: Ghost mounts do not live or reproduce in any normal fashion. When injured, their forms remain marred until they are repaired by the use of an animate dead spell. The passage of time also allows them to recover their negative planar energy, but this form of rejuvenation does not restore their original appearance. 

Riders transformed into wraiths by a ghost mount cannot be restored to their normal form by any means short of a wish.

Originally appeared in MC13 - Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2010)

Both Large undead (augmented animal), I suppose.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Both Large undead (augmented animal), I suppose.




Well there's nothing much to the Lesser version, so shall we do the standard Ghost Mount first?

Large Undead.
Able to disguise itself as a living steed (= _disguise self_?).

Can energy drain a rider (Will save to resist).

Since these creatures seem to be material (despite being called "ghosts", I think they'd be similar to a Nightmare or Heavy horse as far as their abilities go. Since they've only got 3 HD, I doubt their stats are _that_ good.

How about this:

Ghost Mount: Str 16, Dex 13, Con —, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 12, NA +5


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2010)

Disguise self sounds right, and so do the proposed abilities.  

Not sure I like the Wis check to control them.  Maybe some very difficult Handle Animal check.  I'd also like the energy drain to be 1 negative level per hour ridden or something like that.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> Disguise self sounds right, and so do the proposed abilities.
> 
> Not sure I like the Wis check to control them.  Maybe some very difficult Handle Animal check.  I'd also like the energy drain to be 1 negative level per hour ridden or something like that.




How about a Handle Animal check that allows control on a DC X, but needs a DC X+20 to to stop them energy draining. Then if they don't roll well enough they're allowed a Wisdom check to realize they are being energy drained?


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2010)

That could work!


----------



## Cleon (Sep 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> That could work!




Alternatively, we could make it a Will save (to see through the "enchantment" that prevent the victim realizing their fate?). That's Wisdom-based, so we're keeping the right ability.

How's this for a start:

*Drain Rider (Su):* A ghost mount can be ridden, but this is a dangerous proposition. The rider makes a Handle Animal check, if this check succeeds at DC 30? they can ride the ghost mount safely, if it only succeeds against DC 15? the ghost mount will allow itself to be ridden but will subtly drain its rider's life force, draining one energy level per hour they are ridden. The rider must succeed at a DC *X* [Wisdom check? Will save?] to realize they are being energy drained. If a ghost mount kills a rider with its energy drain, the rider will immediately become a free-willed wraith.


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

Looks pretty good.  I might want to reduce the Handle Animal DCs, since they only have 3HD, but I like the framework.  I think I prefer the Wisdom check at a DC around 20 to notice the draining.


----------



## Shade (Sep 28, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Drain Rider is off to a good start.  I'd recommend separating the last sentence and giving it create spawn, like most undead.  Also...



> These beasts are aptly named, not only for their appearance, but also because those who ride a ghost mount may themselves become ghosts, doomed to wandering the deserts by night.




That seems to imply the ghost template, rather than wraith.  But...



> Riders transformed into wraiths by a ghost mount cannot be restored to their normal form by any means short of a wish.




This goes right on and contradicts it.  

I slightly prefer ghosts, since it forces the victim to rejuvenate and relive their poor choice of mount.  



> A ghost mount has two forms, its true form and an illusory one. A ghost mount’s true form is nothing more than a transparent, glowing outline of its former self (either a horse, a camel, or possibly even an antelope). It appears to be a malnourished, battered, and scarred wreck with wild and shining eyes. A ghost mount can also use powerful illusions to mask its true forms and appear as a particularly strong and handsome specimen of its former self.




As suggested upthread, disguise self sounds about right.   SLA or Su ability?



> If the rider stays with the ghost mount, it will throw him after traveling at least 75 miles into the wilderness. Being thrown causes 1d6 damage; a saving throw against falling for items carried by the thrown rider must also be made.




Do we need a "throw from saddle" ability, or will Ride skill cover it?



> Ghost mounts seem to glide just over the ground without ever losing their footing, so they always move at their full movement rate over all forms of terrain.




I know I've seen/used this ability before.  I thought it was the buraq, but that's a bit different.  I'll keep hunting...



> Ghost mounts can be summoned by magic, though their lifedraining abilities are not altered if they are called to serve in this fashion. If a mount spell is cast in a region of empty, uncivilized desert or plains, there is a 5% chance that a ghost mount will answer the magical summons.




We'll need to determine what spells can obtain one's services.



> Ghost mounts are sometimes found among herds of ordinary wild animals, covered in their illusory life forms. In this way they hope to be captured and ridden, thus allowing them to bring more living creatures into the realm of the undead.




Add this to the org line?


----------



## freyar (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm not sure on wraith vs ghost.

I guess SLA since that doesn't seem like the DC should get harder with HD advancement.

I think Ride checks should cover the throwing from saddle.

Sounds almost similar to one of the sheens mechanically.  The roller, maybe?

It does seem a bit mean to have mount summon one of these.  So I'm not quite sure what spell would be appropriate.

Yes on the org.


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure on wraith vs ghost.
> 
> I guess SLA since that doesn't seem like the DC should get harder with HD advancement.




I prefer a Su Camouflage-like SQ.



freyar said:


> It does seem a bit mean to have mount summon one of these.  So I'm not quite sure what spell would be appropriate.
> 
> Yes on the org.




Not wanting to be mean?!

Best be careful, or you'll be blackballed by the DMs Club.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

This isn't exactly what I was seeking, but we might be able to mine it for ideas...

Swift Glide (Ex): When moving its full base land speed, a tybor floats several inches off the ground. This allows a tybor to move unhindered through slick or dangerous terrain. A tybor may even run over the surface of water. This ability lasts as long as the tybor continues to move at its full base land speed, though if it is not on solid ground at the end of its turn, it will suffer the effects of whatever it is standing on. A tybor must move at least 20 feet in a straight line before it begins to glide, though it need not so in subsequent consecutive rounds when continuing to glide. 

This was more what I was looking for, if we remove the gaseous bits:

Gaseous (Ex): A moor hound's insubstantial form grants it several benefits. *A moor hound doesn't actually fly, but floats just above the ground. As a result, it is not subject to ground terrain effects, such as ice or a grease spell, but it is subject to winds as if it were a flying creature.* It cannot wear armor, manipulate solid objects, or enter water or other liquids. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings--even mere cracks. It also can occupy squares occupied by enemies.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> This isn't exactly what I was seeking, but we might be able to mine it for ideas...
> 
> Swift Glide (Ex): When moving its full base land speed, a tybor floats several inches off the ground. This allows a tybor to move unhindered through slick or dangerous terrain. A tybor may even run over the surface of water. This ability lasts as long as the tybor continues to move at its full base land speed, though if it is not on solid ground at the end of its turn, it will suffer the effects of whatever it is standing on. A tybor must move at least 20 feet in a straight line before it begins to glide, though it need not so in subsequent consecutive rounds when continuing to glide.
> 
> ...




So something like this:
*
Ghostwalking (Su?):* A ghost mount can float just above the ground. It doesn't actually fly, but is not subject to ground terrain effects, such as ice or a grease spell, and is subject to winds as if it were a flying creature.

Should they be able to ghostwalk across water?


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Cleon said:


> So something like this:
> *
> Ghostwalking (Su?):* A ghost mount can float just above the ground. It doesn't actually fly, but is not subject to ground terrain effects, such as ice or a grease spell, and is subject to winds as if it were a flying creature.
> 
> Should they be able to ghostwalk across water?




Looks good, and yes to water methinks.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looks good, and yes to water methinks.




Revising...

*Ghostwalking (Su?):* A ghost mount can float just above the ground.  It doesn't actually fly, but is not subject to ground terrain effects,  such as ice or a grease spell, and is subject to winds as if it were a  flying creature. A ghost mount can ghostwalk over water as easily as it can cross solid ground or quicksand.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2010)

Updated.

Here are some earlier disguise self abilities we've done...

Disguise Self (Su): Twice per day, an ingundi can use a well-developed version of the disguise self spell to assume the appearance of any Small, Medium, or Large creature, of any creature type. 

Disguise Self (Su): A faerie changeling is supernaturally glamered to appear as a humanoid child, as if using a disguise self spell. This ability is constant, but the changeling can suppress or resume it as a free action. 

...and here's a wraithform ability...

Wraithform (Su): A wraithworm may become incorporeal for up to 10 minutes per hour. It may not use its natural attacks or paralyzing gaze while incorporeal.


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## Cleon (Oct 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Here are some earlier disguise self abilities we've done...
> 
> ...




The Changeling version seems the best fit:

*Disguise Self (Su):* A ghost mount can give itself the appearance of a strong and handsome steed, as if using a _disguise self_ spell. Its illusory disguise is an idealized form of the ghost mount's appearance when it was still alive. This ability is constant, but the ghost mount can  suppress or resume it as a free action.

As for the Wraithform, I'm not seeing this ability in the original Ghost Mount's write-up.

It would give the ghost mount a good way of throwing a rider - it just turns incorporeal and they fall through it!

However, I'm reluctantly thinking we should leave it out.


----------



## freyar (Oct 3, 2010)

I have to vote to leave wraithform off, too.

I'm starting to reconsider the throwing the rider bit based on the original text, but I'm not sure if the original text makes sense.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> I have to vote to leave wraithform off, too.
> 
> I'm starting to reconsider the throwing the rider bit based on the original text, but I'm not sure if the original text makes sense.




So we're agreed on dropping wraithform.

As for "Throwing the Rider", we could do something like:

*Throw Rider (Ex):* As a move or standard action? a ghost mount can attempt to throw its rider, the thrown rider takes 1d6+3? falling damage and lands prone in an adjacent square. The ghost mount's rider can avoid being thrown with a DC 14? Reflex save or Ride check, they can avoid the falling damage with a DC 15? Ride or Tumble check, and they can land on their feet with a DC 15? Balance or Tumble check. The save DC is Strength?-based.


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

If we're dropping wraithform, let's drop "throw rider" as well.

Updated.

Skills: 12 ranks
Disguise 6, Listen 3, Spot 3?

Feats: 2
Alertness, Run like most mounts?

Environment: Any deserts and plains?

Organization: Solitary or herd (x-x plus x-x ordinary herd animals)?

Challenge Rating: 3?  (It's better than a war camel or heavy war horse)

Advancement: 4-11 HD (Huge); 12–15 HD (Huge)?  (This would allow for elephants and other Huge mounts to be represented)

A ghost mount stands x feet tall at the shoulder and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2010)

That all sounds good.  For herd, maybe 2-8 and 10-30 ordinary herd animals?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

Sounds good.

Updated.

For height/weight, just state "A ghost mount is the same height and length as a living mount of its type, but weighs only half as much"?


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> If we're dropping wraithform, let's drop "throw rider" as well.




I'll regretfully go along with that.



Shade said:


> Skills: 12 ranks
> Disguise 6, Listen 3, Spot 3?
> 
> Feats: 2
> ...




That all looks good.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 4-11 HD (Huge); 12–15 HD (Huge)?  (This would allow for elephants and other Huge mounts to be represented)




Hmm, I would rather just give them 4-9 HD (Large). If you really fancy them Huge too I'd add 10-18 HD (Huge).

Advancement: 4-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge)



freyar said:


> That all sounds good.  For herd, maybe 2-8 and 10-30 ordinary herd animals?






Shade said:


> For height/weight, just state "A ghost mount is the same height and  length as a living mount of its type, but weighs only half as  much"?




Those are both good.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

Updated.

We still need to decide upon ghost vs. wraith.  My vote's for ghost.

After that, on to the lesser?  Should that be a separate entry, or simply an underbar?


----------



## freyar (Oct 7, 2010)

Mmm, seems like wraith fits better to me, but I guess I'm not too picky.

I'd just do an underbar for the lesser ones.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

FWIW, my desire for ghost over wraith stems from:

1.)  The ghost template retains the original creature's abilities.  Since the PCs could fall victim to a ghost mount, this makes for the best option, IMHO.

2.)  We have no easily-available OGL wraith template, as far as I can tell.


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> Mmm, seems like wraith fits better to me, but I guess I'm not too picky.
> 
> I'd just do an underbar for the lesser ones.




I'm with freyar here, I prefer wraiths but it's no big deal.

An underbar for the Lesser Ghost Mount would be OK.


----------



## freyar (Oct 9, 2010)

The ghost template is awfully complicated, though, and comes with a big LA of +5.  The Savage Progression ghost might work, though.

Alternately, the Advanced Bestiary from Green Ronin has suggestions on a wraith template, I think.  I'll check that.

We could list both options and leave it to DM's discretion.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 10, 2010)

Why would wraiths spawned by a ghost mount need to be templated? Creatures who become wraiths don't usually retain former abilities?

I would prefer victims killed by a ghost mount to be standard issue wraiths.


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## Cleon (Oct 11, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Why would wraiths spawned by a ghost mount need to be templated? Creatures who become wraiths don't usually retain former abilities?
> 
> I would prefer victims killed by a ghost mount to be standard issue wraiths.




Me too, just make it a bog-standard SRD wraith.

Also, shouldn't we include a few wraiths in the organization, since they may have previous victims?

e.g.:

* Organization:* Solitary, herd (2-8 plus 10-30 ordinary herd animals) or ride (1-8 plus 1-8 wraiths)


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2010)

Well, the wraiths are free-willed, right?  Why would they stick around the ghost mounts.

I'm happy enough with a standard wraith, but a monster undead (as opposed to a template) doesn't keep, for example, the class abilities.  I think Shade's worried about a PC turning into a standard wraith.


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## Cleon (Oct 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, the wraiths are free-willed, right?  Why would they stick around the ghost mounts.
> 
> I'm happy enough with a standard wraith, but a monster undead (as opposed to a template) doesn't keep, for example, the class abilities.  I think Shade's worried about a PC turning into a standard wraith.




Well, wraiths normally hang around wherever they originally died, and these ones died in the saddle!

As for Shade, I'm not sure what he's worried about vis-à-vis the wraith issue. We'll have to wait for him to finish holidaying so he can tell us.


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2010)

<looks around at the sign-carrying, wraith-loving crowd>

Umm...go Wraiths!



I do agree with freyar that spawned wraiths have no reason to stick around.  Nothing indicates they are bound to the saddle of the ghost mount that slayed 'em...in fact, that would cramp the ghost mount's style.

Updated.

On to the lesser underbar?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> <looks around at the sign-carrying, wraith-loving crowd>
> 
> Umm...go Wraiths!
> 
> ...




No, one of the few advantages of being undead is that wraiths never suffer from rider's cramp or saddle sores. 



Shade said:


> On to the lesser underbar?




The ghost mount looks fine by me, so we might as well proceed.

I would suggest taking the ghost mount, dropping a Hit Dice, lowering its speed to a standard horse, giving it a light horse's Str 14, Cha 6 and +3 NA and a camel's 1d4 bite attack.

We'll need to cut a feat. Since they're based on camels, which have  Endurance and Alertness in the SRD ,I'll cut the ghost mount's Run.

I'll remove its create spawn, drain rider and disguise self abilities but leave it ghostwalking for the time being, despite the description saying "They have none of the special abilities of real ghost mounts". We need something to justify the "ghost" name.

That would work out:

*Ghost Mount, Lesser*
Large Undead
Hit Dice: 2d12 (13 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+7
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4+2)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., ghostwalking, undead traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +4
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con —, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Disguise +7, Jump +14, Listen +5, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Any deserts and plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-8 plus 10-30 ordinary herd animals)
Challenge Rating: 1?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 2-6 HD (Large); 7-12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

_This transparent, glowing outline of a  herd animal appears to be malnourished, battered, and scarred.  Its eyes  are wild and shining._

Change the flavour text.

A lesser ghost mount is the same height and length as a living mount of its type, but weighs only half as much.

Lesser ghost mounts cannot speak.

* COMBAT*
 A lesser ghost mount can attack with its bite.

*Ghostwalking (Su):* A lesser ghost mount can float just above the ground. It  doesn't actually fly, but is not subject to ground terrain effects, such  as ice or a _grease_ spell, and is subject to winds as if it were a  flying creature. A ghost mount can ghostwalk over water as easily as it  can cross solid ground or quicksand.


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2010)

Lesser ghost mounts look fine to me.

On the wraith/create spawn issue, I'd be willing to stick in an underbar pointing to some wraith templates in the case a PC gets drained.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2010)

It looks good.  Since it is essentially a complete monster, I'm thinking it should be a separate entry rather than an underbar.  Agree?

Freyar's suggested underbar for wraith templates sounds good.


----------



## freyar (Oct 20, 2010)

I'll agree with the separate entry for the lesser version.  

I'll look around for various wraith templates for the underbar.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> It looks good.  Since it is essentially a complete monster, I'm thinking it should be a separate entry rather than an underbar.  Agree?




It doesn't bother me either way.

I'm wondering whether the "herd" should become all lesser ghost mounts, since they aren't able to disguise themselves as living animals like regular ghost mounts wouldn't normal animals be reluctant to hang out with them.

That just leaves flavour text, would someone like to have a go at it?


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'm wondering whether the "herd" should become all lesser ghost mounts, since they aren't able to disguise themselves as living animals like regular ghost mounts wouldn't normal animals be reluctant to hang out with them.




Probably.  I guess you could argue that they don't possess the unnatural aura of wraiths, but still...


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2010)

Added to Homebrews, and worked up some flavor text.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews, and worked up some flavor text.




Looks good. The Advancement needs a "3-6 HD (Large)" instead of a "2-6".

I'm not sure about giving them the same Intelligence as a regular ghost mount, but they are both "Low Int" so I suppose it's OK - unless you fancy giving the ghost mount Int 7 and the lesser ghost mount Int 5?


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

Updated.

I don't mind the same Int for them.  I noticed the original has neutral alignment, which fits better with the "non-vengeful" flavor text I worked up.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I don't mind the same Int for them.  I noticed the original has neutral alignment, which fits better with the "non-vengeful" flavor text I worked up.




Most AD&D Neutral undead became Neutral Evil in 3rd edition (e.g. skeletons, zombies), so I'd rather make the lesser ones NE.

Even if they started out N, they'd pick up nasty habits from hanging around with Ghuls.


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Most AD&D Neutral undead became Neutral Evil in 3rd edition (e.g. skeletons, zombies), so I'd rather make the lesser ones NE.
> 
> Even if they started out N, they'd pick up nasty habits from hanging around with Ghuls.




Ahh, but those are mindless undead, while the lesser ghost mounts are not.  I fancy them neutral, as that would explain their lack of maliciousness toward riders, as well as allowing for them to serve as steeds to deathless.  

If you feel as strongly as I do, we can have freyar don his _gauntlets of tiebreaking_ and _mask of the final word_.  

Or we could compromise as "Always neutral, often evil".


----------



## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Ahh, but those are mindless undead, while the lesser ghost mounts are not.  I fancy them neutral, as that would explain their lack of maliciousness toward riders, as well as allowing for them to serve as steeds to deathless.
> 
> If you feel as strongly as I do, we can have freyar don his _gauntlets of tiebreaking_ and _mask of the final word_.
> 
> Or we could compromise as "Always neutral, often evil".




Well "Always neutral, often evil" would suit me a little better, but I don't mind "Always neutral" if you prefer it.

Those ties cost money you know, we don't want to break too many.


----------



## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well "Always neutral, often evil" would suit me a little better, but I don't mind "Always neutral" if you prefer it.




I'm feeling generous today.  



Cleon said:


> Those ties cost money you know, we don't want to break too many.




While true, we receive quite a few as gifts.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm feeling generous today.




They're done then.



Shade said:


> While true, we receive quite a few as gifts.




Yes, but some of those are pretty horribly, such as ties promoting _*Playghoul*_, the magazine for the discerning Undead gentleman (*shudder*).

Breaking's about all they're good for.


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2010)

The morkoth’s tunnels are not devoid of life.  Predatory fish have adapted to life in this alien environment to rpey on the morkoth’s near-helpless victims.  Blind and mindless, these translucent fish resemble large barracudas.  They lurk at bends in the tunnels and sense the vibrations of approaching prey.  The morkoth’s agents are charged with killing these creatures whenever they encounter them, as they interfere with the morkoth’s food supply.

*Tunnel Fish:* INT non- (0); AL N; AC 6; MV sw 30; HD 3; hp 12; THAC0 17; #AT 1; Dmg 2-8; SA -3 to opponents’ surprise rolls; SZ M; ML 11; XP 65; new monster.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #70 (1998).


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2010)

This should be rather easy.

Take a barracuda's stats, improved to 3 HD, add blindsight.

Should we switch 'em to magical beasts?

Here's a barracuda's stats:

Medium Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 2d8 (9 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Sprint
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +3, Spot +4, Swim +8
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair, or school (3-6)
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -

Sprint (Ex): A barracuda can move up to three times its normal speed (180 feet) when it makes a charge.

Skills: A barracuda has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> This should be rather easy.
> 
> Take a barracuda's stats, improved to 3 HD, add blindsight.
> 
> Should we switch 'em to magical beasts?




I'd make them Magical Beasts and give them immunity to mind-affecting powers, or at the very least immunity to a Morkoth's _hypnosis_, otherwise the Morkoth would easily eat them.


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2010)

That makes sense, since they are "mindless".


----------



## Cleon (Nov 4, 2010)

Shade said:


> That makes sense, since they are "mindless".




Do we want to give them Int 0 then, or the standard 1 for fish?


----------



## Shade (Nov 5, 2010)

Let's stick with 1, since I can't recall ever seeing a mindless magical beast.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's stick with 1, since I can't recall ever seeing a mindless magical beast.




Hellwasps are mindless magical beasts, at least in small numbers. I'm sure there are other examples if we look.



Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




It needs the Blind SQ as well, going by the original text.

I'd also like to increase the bite damage from 1d4. Preferably 2d4 or 1d8.


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2010)

Cleon said:


> They're done then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Naw, undead aren't usually biophiliacs.  Some necromancers, on the other hand....

Best I can do for wraith templates is the sidebar for the dread wraith sovereign in the Advanced Bestiary by GRR.


----------



## freyar (Nov 8, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Hellwasps are mindless magical beasts, at least in small numbers. I'm sure there are other examples if we look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hellwasp swarms "originate" as vermin, though, so truly mindless works better for them.

I can agree with blind and increased damage, too.  Any other way to make these slightly more interesting?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hellwasp swarms "originate" as vermin, though, so truly mindless works better for them.
> 
> I can agree with blind and increased damage, too.  Any other way to make these slightly more interesting?




The "-3 to opponents’ surprise rolls" suggests excellent stealth. Maybe they have camouflage, blending in to the slimy walls of the Morkoth's tunnels?


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The "-3 to opponents’ surprise rolls" suggests excellent stealth. Maybe they have camouflage, blending in to the slimy walls of the Morkoth's tunnels?




+4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently, with Hide improving to +8 in underwater tunnels?


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2010)

That Hide bonus seems good, and based on "They lurk at bends in the tunnels and sense the vibrations of approaching prey." I'd give them tremorsense, in addition to or instead of blindsight.


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2010)

It seems we had a similar situation before, and I cannot remember what we found.  I want to say we found that tremorsense could apply to creatures in contact with the water, but can't remember where I found that.

<Shade begins hunting...>


----------



## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently, with Hide improving to +8 in underwater tunnels?




I'd prefer a bigger Hide bonus in a tunnel, like +12.

I wasn't going to go for a Move Silently racial bonus, since I imagine these eels lying motionless while waiting for prey, but have no objection to it.

As for the tremorsense/blindsense/blindsight question, I favor just a bit of blindsight.


----------



## Shade (Nov 11, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd prefer a bigger Hide bonus in a tunnel, like +12.




No problem.



Cleon said:


> I wasn't going to go for a Move Silently racial bonus, since I imagine these eels lying motionless while waiting for prey, but have no objection to it.




It thought they were barracudas, not eels.  



Cleon said:


> As for the tremorsense/blindsense/blindsight question, I favor just a bit of blindsight.




Here was our previous "underwater tremorsense" justification:

Tremorsense (Ex): A jellyfish swarm can detect and pinpoint any creature in the water within 30 feet.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> No problem.
> 
> It thought they were barracudas, not eels.




Oh, you're right it does compare them to barracuda. I have no idea were the eel comparison came from.

Although from what I remember Barracuda aren't ambush hunters, don't they live in open water, where they slowly stalk prey and then use a burst of speed to catch them? Kind of like underwater cheetahs.



Shade said:


> Here was our previous "underwater tremorsense" justification:
> 
> Tremorsense (Ex): A jellyfish swarm can detect and pinpoint any creature in the water within 30 feet.




Since they pinpoint creatures, what's effective difference is there between that and blindsight 30 ft.?


----------



## freyar (Nov 14, 2010)

The justification for tremorsense underwater is straight from the tremorsense definition in the SRD: "Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water."

From digging a bit through the special ability descriptions, the effective difference between blindsight and tremorsense is that (1) you need line of effect to use blindsight (or blindsense) on something but don't with tremorsense and (2) tremorsense only picks up things that are moving or taking physical action (so, not, say, a rock that's just sitting there).  

I just kind of prefer making them feel their way around their homes like a blind person would with tremorsense to detect intruders from some distance a way.  Just seems more right.  I'm not totally against blindsight, but this feels more right to me.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm OK with tremorsense, but it means they'll have a miss chance.

Maybe compromise on 60 ft. tremorsense, 10 ft. blindsight?


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2010)

I'll accept that compromise.

Updated.

Feats: Weapon Finesse, 1 more

Challenge Rating: 2?

A tunnel fish is 5 feet long and weighs 35 pounds?


----------



## freyar (Nov 16, 2010)

Maybe Reckless Offense for those charges?  The rest seems ok.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2010)

That works for me!  Updated.


----------



## freyar (Nov 18, 2010)

All done?


----------



## Shade (Nov 18, 2010)

Yes, I think so!


----------



## Cleon (Nov 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yes, I think so!




They're a bit weak for Challenge Rating 2. They only do 1d4 damage and have weedy AC.

Oh well, the high Reflex saves, sprint, blindfight-tremorsense, and immunity to mind-affecting attacks are worth something, I suppose.

I'd have them weigh more than 35 pounds though.

A great barracuda (_Sphyraena barracuda_) can grow to about 6 feet and somewhere around  100-110 pounds. Scaling that down to 5 feet would give a weight about 60 pounds.


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2010)

They are too tough for CR 1.

I'll go for 60 pounds, though.


----------



## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

Seems fine.  Anything up on the docket for this thread right now?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Seems fine.  Anything up on the docket for this thread right now?




I can't find the Weed Eel in the Creature Catalog, is that another animal that's already been covered?


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I can't find the Weed Eel in the Creature Catalog, is that another animal that's already been covered?




You are correct.  Echohawk doesn't have it on the unconverted list, since it was converted by Vaults of Pandius.   We can do our own version if you'd like, or we can move on to one of the other unconverted animals.


----------



## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

If Cleon feels strongly about it, I'm happy to convert it, but my usual preference is to finish up the list.


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

If we do decide to convert the weed eel, it probably doesn't belong in this thread (since it didn't appear in Dungeon, as far as I can tell).


----------



## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> You are correct.  Echohawk doesn't have it on the unconverted list, since it was converted by Vaults of Pandius.   We can do our own version if you'd like, or we can move on to one of the other unconverted animals.




Sorry, I left out the full explanation.

I already knew of the Vaults of Pandius *conversion*, but that's not the Weed Eel in question.

I'm talking about the AD&D version of the Weed Eel (the variety that lives in communal tunnels and has a deadly poisonous bite) that's in the _*Monster Manual*_ (1977), _*Monstrous Compendium Volume Two*_ (1989) and _*Monstrous Manual*_ (1993).

The BECMI version converted in the Vaults of Pandius (an eel that looks like seaweed and grapples/drowns its victims) may share a name, it's a different creature.

EDIT: I've just checked the AC9 version of the Weed Eel and it has a poison bite, but the Vault of Pandius conversion forgot to include it! :ENDEDIT



Shade said:


> If we do decide to convert the weed eel, it  probably doesn't belong in this thread (since it didn't appear in  Dungeon, as far as I can tell).




What? Isn't this the "Converting "Real World" Animal and Vermin thread"?

Glances up to the top of the thread...

Oh shazbut, I posted it in the wrong place.

We'd better move this conversion to somewhere else. As far as I can tell the AD&D Weed Eel is not based on a real-life fish, so some other thread like the "Monstrous Compendium" or "First Edition AD&D" creature threads may be more appropriate.

Getting back to this thread, I'll have to check the unconverted Dungeon monsters list to see if anything tickles my fancy.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2010)

We've got an opening in the First Edition thread...


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> We've got an opening in the First Edition thread...




I'll wind my way over there then.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2010)

*Scorpion Fish:* INT animal; AL N; AC 8; MV swim 9; HD ¼; hp 1; THAC0 20; #AT 1; Dmg 1; SA poison (onset 2-12 rounds, incapacitates victim for 2-12 days); SZ T; ML 12; XP 7; new monster.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #47 (1994).


Not much to go on here. Just some random wandering monster.  I assume they are based on these:

Scorpaenidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## freyar (Dec 16, 2010)

Then again, they could be a goldfish with a scorpion tail, knowing how D&D works.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Then again, they could be a goldfish with a scorpion tail, knowing how D&D works.




Why not do both! 

Hmm, should a "Scorpio Fish" have scorpion claws too? Maybe it resembles a cross between a goldfish and a Eurypterid?


----------



## freyar (Dec 18, 2010)

Should decide which we're doing first and which Shade prefers...


----------



## Cleon (Dec 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Should decide which we're doing first and which Shade prefers...




Let's start with the "real world" scorpion fish and worry about the chimeric version later.


----------



## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

That'll work.

Red lionfish can grow up to 1-1/2 feet long, so Tiny?


----------



## freyar (Dec 20, 2010)

Works for me.  Got any ability preferences?


----------



## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

Not really.  Time to "go fishing"...


----------



## Shade (Dec 21, 2010)

...and we have a few nibbles for comparison.

Agnath, Electric (T): Str 9, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Bassnip (T):  Str 7, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Bloatfish/Spiny Sleeper (T): Str 4, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2


----------



## Cleon (Dec 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> ...and we have a few nibbles for comparison.
> 
> Agnath, Electric (T): Str 9, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
> Bassnip (T):  Str 7, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
> Bloatfish/Spiny Sleeper (T): Str 4, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2




I'd go for a Spiny Sleeper as a foundation, maybe with a lower Dex and higher Con?


----------



## freyar (Dec 22, 2010)

How about just swapping Dex and Con?


----------



## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about just swapping Dex and Con?




<signals agreement>


----------



## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about just swapping Dex and Con?




Constitution 15 seems too high for a rather ordinary Tiny fish, I was thinking more Dex 13  and Con 13.


----------



## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

That works, too.


----------



## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

Added to Homebrews, using the spiny sleeper as a framework.


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## Cleon (Dec 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews, using the spiny sleeper as a framework.




I'm having a bit of trouble determining how big these fish grow. Most seem pretty small - the Spotted Scorpionfish (_Scorpaena plumieri_) is one of the biggest species in the Atlantic and only grows 8 to 18 inches long (usually closer to the former than the latter), with a 5 lb maximum weight.

According to *this article* on keeping them as pets "The largest member of this family can reach an adult size of over 20 inches in length in the wild". The Britannica Online Encyclopedia says the *largest species* approach a meter in length (implying a weight of 40 pounds or so, going by the Spotted species).

Aha! here we are, the *Shortraker Rockfish* _Sebastes borealis_ is normally 40-60 cm and 1.5-4 kg (approx. 16-24 inches & 3.3-8.8 lbs) but its *record* is 108 cm and 16.2 kg. (42.5 inches and 35.68 pounds). Should  have remembered to check fishbase first.

So, Small size is fine then, something like:

Most scorpion fish are between 7 and 15 inches long and 1 or 2 pounds in weight, the largest species can reach over 3 feet in length and weigh 30 pounds or so.

EDIT: Hold on! According to *this* and *this* _S. borealis_ grows even larger, approaching 4 feet and 50 to 60+ pounds.

That suggests two possibilities, either we change the size to:

Most scorpion fish are between 7 and 15 inches long and 1 or 2 pounds in  weight, record sized specimens of the largest species can approach 4 feet long and weigh 50 pounds or so.

...or we add a "Dire Scorpionfish" to our conversions!

EDITED EDIT: I've had trouble determining whether the Shortraker has venomous spines (not all members of the family are poisonous). If we do a "Dire Scorpionfish" that won't matter, of course.


----------



## Shade (Dec 28, 2010)

Cleon said:


> That suggests two possibilities, either we change the size to:
> 
> Most scorpion fish are between 7 and 15 inches long and 1 or 2 pounds in  weight, record sized specimens of the largest species can approach 4 feet long and weigh 50 pounds or so.




This one.



Cleon said:


> ...or we add a "Dire Scorpionfish" to our conversions!




Egads, no!  We've already got two conversions in one, we don't need a third!


----------



## Cleon (Dec 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> This one.




As you like, I'm thinking it's probably not very "real world" accurate but this is a Fantasy Game.

I've just spent far more time than I should spare rummaging around the internet trying to find confirmation on the Shortraker's toxicity. The closest I can find is *this page* on rockfish by the Alaskan Deptartment of Fish & Game, which says "The spines are mildly toxic and can cause pain and infection".

So poisonous, but only mildly so.

Scorpionfish venom seems to cause pain (presumably to discourage predators) but is rarely deadly, even for the most poisonous species. They're not killers like their relatives the Stonefish (_Synanceia_).

Maybe a sickened effect to represent the pain, plus a few points of ability damage for the poison?



Shade said:


> Egads, no!  We've already got two conversions in one, we don't need a third!




Spoilsport.


----------



## Shade (Dec 28, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Scorpionfish venom seems to cause pain (presumably to discourage predators) but is rarely deadly, even for the most poisonous species. They're not killers like their relatives the Stonefish (_Synanceia_).
> 
> Maybe a sickened effect to represent the pain, plus a few points of ability damage for the poison?




That could work, or borrow from symbol of pain as usual for a pain effect?  (As an aside, why didn't they just make pain a condition?   Ditto for confused, insane, etc.  Grrr.)


----------



## Cleon (Dec 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> That could work, or borrow from symbol of pain as usual for a pain effect?




Either works for me.

It depends what fish where modelling here. If we're talking scorpion fish like _Scorpaena_ the venom is extremely painful so deserves _symbol of pain_ stats. Many of the species in the family (like the rockfish) don't seem so bad from the rummaging around the internet I did.

So, shall we say these are "true scorpionfish" like the genus _Scorpaena_ which cause agonizing _pain_?

In that case I'd like to change the size to the scale of _Scorpaena_, which don't grow as big as the large rockfish referred to earlier. Looking through the fishbase website, _Scorpaena_ species average somewhere about 10-20 centimetres long (4 to 8 inches), with the smaller ones being under 2 inches long and the largest (e.g. _S. elongata_, _guttata_, _izensis, mystes_, _plumieri_, _scrofa_, _stephanica_ and _sumptuosa_) averaging around 25-30 cm (10-12") and reaching max lengths of about 40-50 cm (18-20").

So, how about making them Diminutive with Advancement to Tiny and changing the size description to "Most types of scorpionfish are very small, typically 4 to 8 inches in length and an ounce or two in weight, the largest species can grow up to 18 inches long and 5 pounds in weight"?



Shade said:


> (As an aside, why didn't they just make pain a condition?   Ditto for confused, insane, etc.  Grrr.)




I agree. If I were left to me I'd make those all conditions AND have three grades of each. Maybe make Dazed the "level 1" version of Confused with Beffudled inbetween as "level 2".


----------



## Shade (Dec 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> So, shall we say these are "true scorpionfish" like the genus _Scorpaena_ which cause agonizing _pain_?




Good idea.



Cleon said:


> So, how about making them Diminutive with Advancement to Tiny and changing the size description to "Most types of scorpionfish are very small, typically 4 to 8 inches in length and an ounce or two in weight, the largest species can grow up to 18 inches long and 5 pounds in weight"?




That works for me.



Cleon said:


> I agree. If I were left to me I'd make those all conditions AND have three grades of each. Maybe make Dazed the "level 1" version of Confused with Beffudled inbetween as "level 2".




I like!


----------



## Cleon (Dec 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good idea.
> 
> That works for me.
> 
> I like!




Good! Getting back to the poison. How's this for an outline:

*Scorpionfish Poison (Ex):* Injury by spines; Fort DC *X*; initial damage agonizing pain equal to a _symbol of pain_ (-4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks) for *2d6**?* minutes; secondary damage agonizing pain equal to a _symbol of pain_ for *1d4**?* hours plus *1d4 Con?* damage. Save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

Lookin' good.  Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jan 4, 2011)

I like it pretty well.  1 rank each in Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot?  CR 1/2 due to the poison?


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> I like it pretty well.  1 rank each in Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot?  CR 1/2 due to the poison?




Updated.

Environment: Temperate or warm aquatic?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or school (x-x)


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> I like it pretty well.  1 rank each in Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot?  CR 1/2 due to the poison?




Suits me.

How much damage should the Spiny Defense do - 1 point piercing?

Shouldn't the attacker get a Reflex save to avoid the spines?

e.g.:

*Spiny Defense (Ex):* Any creature that hits a scorpionfish in melee with a  natural or handheld weapon (but not a reach weapon) must succeed at a DC X Reflex save or take 1 point of  piercing damage from its many spines and be exposed to its poison. The save DC is Y-based.


----------



## Shade (Jan 6, 2011)

Good call.  Updated.

Environment: Temperate or warm aquatic?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or school (x-x)


----------



## freyar (Jan 8, 2011)

Env looks good.  Maybe 4-20 for the school?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Good call.  Updated.
> 
> Environment: Temperate or warm aquatic?
> 
> Organization: Solitary, pair, or school (x-x)




The environment is fine, but from what I remember these aren't schooling fish, but are usually solitary and sedentary. Guess you might find a few in the same place if the hunting's good though. I would rather have something like "Solitary or cluster (2-4)".


----------



## Shade (Jan 10, 2011)

Updated.

Suggestions for description, flavor text, and tactics?  I'm a bit confused on which of the real-world scorpionfish to use for inspiration here.


----------



## freyar (Jan 10, 2011)

They're pretty passive, so perhaps they mostly attempt to flee until cornered?


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> They're pretty passive, so perhaps they mostly attempt to flee until cornered?




Actually, a scorpion fish's preferred defense is to pretend to be a lump of coral until the threat goes away, any rely on its poison spines to deter attacks if it fails to hide.

Scorpion fish are very cryptic, so we should give them a racial bonus to Hide in reef environments. We might want to give them Camouflage or a "Hide in Plain Sight" variant too.

How's this:

* Skills:* Hide +14*, Listen +2, Move Silently +2, Spot +2, Swim +5

_A little, stout __bodied fish resembling a rock with fins, with a row of spines running down its back._

Scorpionfish are slow-moving bottom dwellers that most commonly live in reefs. The spines of these fish are coated in a venomous slime that causes excruciating pain to any creature injured by a spine, which gives them their name.

A scorpionfish's resemblance to a rock or piece of coral makes them  extraordinarily hard to spot among the reefs where they prefer to live. They are usually red or brown in color.

Most types of scorpionfish are very small, typically 4 to 8 inches in  length and an ounce or two in weight, the largest species can grow up to  18 inches long and 5 pounds in weight.

*Combat*
Scorpionfish are not aggressive. If they see an enemy they hide, freezing in place until the threat departs. Should this fail, they rely on their venomous spines to defend them.

*Skills:*  A scorpionfish has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some  special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a  Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action  while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.
*A scorpionfish has a +8 racial bonus to Hide checks in a reef environment.


----------



## Shade (Jan 11, 2011)

Great!  Updated.  All done?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Great!  Updated.  All done?




Looks done apart from "_resemblies a rock_" in the description.

What strange tongue does "resemblies" come from? 

Incidentally, I don't remember us discussing the namechange from the Dungeon article's "Scorpion Fish" (two words) to "Scorpionfish". The latter seems to be preferred for fish of this group.

For example, I did a quick Google and there are about 176,000 results for "Scorpionfish" and about 63,300 for "Scorpion Fish".

So shall we move on to out "weird scorpion-fish monster"?

Since we're crafting it out of whole cloth we can more or less do what we like.

I'm imagining something with the front half of a scorpion and the back half of a moray eel with a scorpion's sting in its tail, with venomous spines all around.


----------



## Shade (Jan 13, 2011)

Cleon said:


> What strange tongue does "resemblies" come from?




It's Typosian.  



Cleon said:


> Incidentally, I don't remember us discussing the namechange from the Dungeon article's "Scorpion Fish" (two words) to "Scorpionfish". The latter seems to be preferred for fish of this group.
> 
> For example, I did a quick Google and there are about 176,000 results for "Scorpionfish" and about 63,300 for "Scorpion Fish".




I'm not sure we discussed it, but my quick search showed more of the blended name, so I ran with it.  



Cleon said:


> So shall we move on to out "weird scorpion-fish monster"?
> 
> Since we're crafting it out of whole cloth we can more or less do what we like.
> 
> I'm imagining something with the front half of a scorpion and the back half of a moray eel with a scorpion's sting in its tail, with venomous spines all around.




I like it!  And I'd suggest calling this one a "Scorpion-fish".  If only they'd used a hyphen in "Sea Lion" to avoid confusion with the real creature.     That's probably why they changed it eventually to "Sea Cat".


----------



## freyar (Jan 14, 2011)

Didn't one of the MMs (2 or 3) make a Sea Tiger or something?

Anyway, if we're going hyphenated, might as well capitalize the "Fish" part too.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> It's Typosian.




Ah yes, that ancient dialect has as vibrant a life as ever.



Shade said:


> I'm not sure we discussed it, but my quick search showed more of the blended name, so I ran with it.




It's OK by me.



Shade said:


> I like it!  And I'd suggest calling this one a "Scorpion-fish".  If only they'd used a hyphen in "Sea Lion" to avoid confusion with the real creature.     That's probably why they changed it eventually to "Sea Cat".




Maybe a Fish-Scorpion to make certain there's no confusion?

Magical Beast (Aquatic) presumably.

What size shall we start them?

If we give them Improved Grab / Constrict like a Monstrous Scorpion I think they ought to start out at Medium or so, otherwise they won't be able to grapple adventurers.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Didn't one of the MMs (2 or 3) make a Sea Tiger or something?




Sea Tigers are _Monster Manual III_.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> If only they'd used a hyphen in "Sea Lion" to avoid confusion with the real creature.     That's probably why they changed it eventually to "Sea Cat".




It's a glorious pun which they should have defended to the death.

To add insult to injury the "Sea Cat" is a poor conversion of the AD&D Sea Lion. For starters, the Sea Cat is an air-breather while the Sea Lion is fully amphibious, with both lungs and gills. They're clearly different species, which is why I have a Cleon Special TM conversion of the original and true Sea Lion sitting on my hard drive...


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jan 15, 2011)

I also think they should have kept Sea Lion too.  As for the excuse that they changed it because a sea lion is a real animal, a salamander is a real animal but they kept that name.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I also think they should have kept Sea Lion too.  As for the excuse that they changed it because a sea lion is a real animal, a salamander is a real animal but they kept that name.




Same here, I still call them Sea Lions.


----------



## Shade (Jan 18, 2011)

But where does one find the _Sea Leopard_?  



Cleon said:


> Maybe a Fish-Scorpion to make certain there's no confusion?
> 
> Magical Beast (Aquatic) presumably.
> 
> ...




Medium Magical Beast (Aquatic) Fish-Scorpion appeals.

Here are the ability scores of Medium Monstrous Scorpion:
Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2

Boost Int to 2?  What other changes?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> But where does one find the _Sea Leopard_?




In the Sea Jungle, of course. Some call it the Sea Tropical Rain Forest now.



Shade said:


> Medium Magical Beast (Aquatic) Fish-Scorpion appeals.
> 
> Here are the ability scores of Medium Monstrous Scorpion:
> Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
> ...




Make it Int 1 and I'd be happy enough, but I'm sorely tempted to increase the Dex. A Medium Shark has Dex 15, but these are mutant hodge-podges so how about Dex 13?

*Fish-Scorpion:* Str 13, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 2


----------



## Shade (Jan 18, 2011)

Those stats appeal.


----------



## freyar (Jan 20, 2011)

Same here.  

Just use straight scorpion poison or modify a bit?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Same here.
> 
> Just use straight scorpion poison or modify a bit?




Either Monstrous scorpion poison or scorpion poison plus an agonizing effect like their venomous spines (they'll have venomous spines like the scorpionfish too, of course).


----------



## Shade (Jan 21, 2011)

I prefer the latter, just to differentiate them a bit further from a standard scorpion.


----------



## freyar (Jan 21, 2011)

Want to put the poison on the spines, too, just to keep it combined everywhere?


----------



## Shade (Jan 21, 2011)

That would seem to make the most sense.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Want to put the poison on the spines, too, just to keep it combined everywhere?




Yes, although I'd like the spine poison to do less damage than the sting.

e.g.

*Poison (Ex):* Injury (spines or sting), Fortitude DC X; initial damage agonizing pain equal to  a symbol of pain (-4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability  checks) for 2d6 minutes plus 1d3 (sting) or 1 (spines) Con damage; secondary damage agonizing pain for 1d4 hours  plus 1d3 (sting) or 1 (spines)  Con damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2011)

Well, if we're doing that, we might as well list separate poisons or even different effects.


----------



## Shade (Jan 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, if we're doing that, we might as well list separate poisons or even different effects.




Indeed.  I don't recall ever seeing a creature with two different venoms.  I'd rather just keep it consistent, even if it's less "realistic".


----------



## freyar (Jan 25, 2011)

Let's get rid of the explicit reference to the symbol while we're at it.  How about this?

Poison (Ex): Injury (spines or sting), Fortitude DC X; initial damage agonizing pain (-4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks) for 2d6 minutes plus 1d3  Con damage; secondary damage agonizing pain for 1d4 hours plus 1 Con damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.

I split the difference on the Con damage.


----------



## Shade (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm happy with it.


----------



## freyar (Jan 26, 2011)

Do we have a homebrews or draft of these somewhere?


----------



## Shade (Jan 26, 2011)

We do now.  

Skills: A monstrous scorpion has a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Spot checks.

Do we want to retain the Hide and Spot bonuses?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's get rid of the explicit reference to the symbol while we're at it.  How about this?
> 
> Poison (Ex): Injury (spines or sting), Fortitude DC X; initial damage agonizing pain (-4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks) for 2d6 minutes plus 1d3  Con damage; secondary damage agonizing pain for 1d4 hours plus 1 Con damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> I split the difference on the Con damage.




While I prefer separate damage I'm not that strongly attached to the notion, so that'd be OK by me.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

Shade said:


> We do now.
> 
> Skills: A monstrous scorpion has a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Spot checks.
> 
> Do we want to retain the Hide and Spot bonuses?




Well these Fish-Scorpions have the front half of a Monstrous Scorpion and a scorpion's main sense organs are on its legs and body, so I'd vote for keeping the +4 to Spot. Moray Eels are also good at hiding, so I'd keep the +4 Hide bonus too.

EDIT: I also think we should give it a higher bonus to Hide in reefs - 
Maybe +8 instead of +4? ENDEDIT

Since it's got a scorpion's legs I'd also like to give it a land speed (maybe 20 ft.?) plus Water Dependency, so it can crawl out of the sea to attack folk on beaches. For the same reason, I fancy giving it a Climb speed (20 ft.?) as well as the usual skill text. Imagine these things climbing up cliffs and sea-rocks to reach their prey...

EDIT: Also, the long tail and more active hunting might make these  things faster swimmers than a standard scorpionfish, which basically  just sit their. Should we consider increasing the Swim speed to 30 ft.?

Here's the collated proposal:
*Speed:* 20 ft., climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft. [*or* swim 30 ft.?]

*Skills:* Fish-scorpions have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks. A fish-scorpion has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Climb or Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A fish-scorpion's racial bonus to Hide checks increases to +8 if it is among reefs or sea rocks.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

How much damage does its Spiny Defence do?

I would be happy with 1 point of piercing like the original.


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Here's the collated proposal:
> *Speed:* 20 ft., climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft. [*or* swim 30 ft.?]
> 
> *Skills:* Fish-scorpions have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks. A fish-scorpion has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Climb or Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.
> ...




Agreed to all that, including the faster swim speed.



Cleon said:


> How much damage does its Spiny Defence do?
> 
> I would be happy with 1 point of piercing like the original.




Well, it's bigger than the scorpion fish, so I figured it would deal more damage.    A howler (Large) deal 1d6+Str with its quills.  Ditto for a quillflinger (M).  So at the very least, I'd recommend 1d4.  I'd recommend allowing it to use them offensively like those other creatures as well, adding it to the Full Attack line as a secondary attack.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 29, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed to all that, including the faster swim speed.
> 
> Well, it's bigger than the scorpion fish, so I figured it would deal more damage.    A howler (Large) deal 1d6+Str with its quills.  Ditto for a quillflinger (M).  So at the very least, I'd recommend 1d4.  I'd recommend allowing it to use them offensively like those other creatures as well, adding it to the Full Attack line as a secondary attack.




I'd be OK increasing the damage but insist it does less than the claws and sting, so 1d3 at most.

Secondary attack is OK I guess:

We haven't discussed feats yet, but I am strongly in favor of Multiattack.

That would make it:

*Full Attack:* 2 claws +3 melee (1d4+1) and sting +1 melee (1d4 plus poison) and spines +1 (1d3 plus poison)
* Feats:* Multiattack

*Spiny Defense (Ex):* Any creature that hits a fish-scorpion in melee with  a natural or handheld weapon (but not a reach weapon) must succeed on a  DC 12 Reflex save or take 1d3 points of piercing damage from its many  spines and be exposed to its poison. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

I'm also thinking that any opponent being crushed by its claws is at risk from its spines, something like:

*Constrict (Ex):* A fish-scorpion deals automatic claw damage on a successful grapple check. The opponent must also make a Reflex save against the fish-scorpion's spiny defense (see below).

*Spiny Defense (Ex):* Any creature that grapples a fish-scorpion or hits a fish-scorpion in melee with  a natural or handheld weapon (but not a reach weapon) must succeed on a  DC 12 Reflex save or take 1d3 points of piercing damage from its many  spines and be exposed to its poison. The save DC is Dexterity-based.


----------



## freyar (Jan 29, 2011)

I think I like all of this.  Looking good!  EDIT: Are we going to let the spines break off like a howler's quills?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 30, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think I like all of this.  Looking good!  EDIT: Are we going to let the spines break off like a howler's quills?




I'd rather not.


----------



## freyar (Feb 1, 2011)

But we are letting these thrash around and use the spines as a melee attack?  Sure.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> But we are letting these thrash around and use the spines as a melee attack?  Sure.




I already indicated I'm game for the melee attack:



Cleon said:


> I'd be OK increasing the damage but insist it does less than the claws and sting, so 1d3 at most.
> 
> Secondary attack is OK I guess:
> 
> ...


----------



## freyar (Feb 4, 2011)

Then I think we should possibly change "spiny defense" to "spines" and list both the melee and defensive abilities there.


----------



## Shade (Feb 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Then I think we should possibly change "spiny defense" to "spines" and list both the melee and defensive abilities there.




Makes sense.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Makes sense.  Updated.




I have no objection.

Skills next? We've already got the racial bonuses worked out.

*Scorpion-Fish*
Skills: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Swim
*
Medium Monstrous Scorpion*
Skills: Climb, Hide, Spot

So, something like:

*Fish-Scorpion*
Skills Ranks: Climb 0, Hide 0, Listen 3, Move Silently 2, Spot 0, Swim 0

Fish-scorpions have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks. A  fish-scorpion has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and +8 racial bonus  on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It  can always choose to take 10 on a Climb or Swim check, even if  distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming,  provided it swims in a straight line.

*A fish-scorpion's racial bonus to Hide checks increases to +8 if it is among reefs or sea rocks.     

That works out:*Skills:* Climb +9, Hide +5* [_+9 in reefs_], Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Spot +4, Swim+9​


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2011)

Looks good.  Updated.

Environment: Temperate or warm aquatic?

Organization: Solitary or colony (2–5)?

Challenge Rating: 2?  It's tougher than a Medium monstrous scorpion.

A typical fish-scorpion is x feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2011)

Environment, org, CR look fine.  1 ft, 10lb?  Or 5lb???


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## Cleon (Feb 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Updated.
> 
> Environment: Temperate or warm aquatic?




Make it warm aquatic, since Monstrous Scorpions have "Warm desert" for environment.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or colony (2–5)?
> 
> Challenge Rating: 2?  It's tougher than a Medium monstrous scorpion.




Both are fine.



freyar said:


> Shade said:
> 
> 
> > A typical fish-scorpion is x feet long and weighs x pounds.
> ...




Freyar, that seems a trifle underweight for Medium sized monster. 

6 feet and 300 pounds like our _Yohoia_ conversion?


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2011)

Updated.

Anyone wanna develop some flavor text and tactics?


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## Cleon (Feb 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Anyone wanna develop some flavor text and tactics?




How about this:

A monstrous hybrid of scorpion, eel and venomous fish found in tropical seas, fish-scorpions prefer living in tropical reefs and rocky shallows where they can easily hide. Fish-scorpions will climb out of the sea to attack creatures on land or aboard ships, they can breathe air for a few hours before their lung-gills dry out and they risk suffocating. 

A fish-scorpion's body is covered in long spines covered in venomous slime, similar to those of a lionfish, which are an effective weapon of defense and attack.

A typical fish-scorpion is 6 feet long and weighs 300 pounds.

*Combat*
A fish-scorpion fights much as a scorpion does, seizing prey in its claws and stinging with their tail. In addition, they will stab with their envenomed spines, which may also injure opponents who attack the fish-scorpion.

A fish-scorpion is a vicious and dim-witted animal which does not like to flee from combat, if badly injured they try to shelter in a crevice or crawlspace and defend themselves with their numerous natural weapons.

Also, it's still got the 1 HD (Tiny) Advancement of a Scorpionfish. Shall we use standard triple HD Advancement or let them grow bigger?

*Advancement #1:* 3 HD (Medium); 4-6 HD (Large)
*Advancement #2:* 3 HD (Medium); 4-7 HD (Large); 8-12 HD (Huge)

Since I like the idea of Huge Fish-Scorpions I'll vote for #2.


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2011)

Great stuff, and I agree with Advancement #2.

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Great stuff, and I agree with Advancement #2.
> 
> Updated.  Finished?




We're done.

Next!


----------



## Shade (Feb 10, 2011)

In the far corner of the room is a swarm of wraith roaches—eerily silient beetles with ghostly white carapaces and gossamer wings.  The swarm attacks a single target within 10 feet, draining one energy level with each successful attack.  A victim drained of all levels dies and transforms into another swarm of wratih roaches (and cannot be raised).  A victim who is nto slain by the swarm regainst lost levels at a rate of 1/day.

*Wraith roach swarm:* AL NE; AC 7; MV 9; FL 12 (A); HD 2; hp 14; THAC0 19; #AT 1 per swarm; Dmg nil; SA energy drain; SD impervious to edged/piercing weapons; hit only by magical blunt weapons and spells; SZ T; ML 15; XP 975.

Originally appeared in Dungeon #71 (1998).


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> In the far corner of the room is a swarm of wraith roaches—eerily silient beetles with ghostly white carapaces and gossamer wings.  The swarm attacks a single target within 10 feet, draining one energy level with each successful attack.  A victim drained of all levels dies and transforms into another swarm of wratih roaches (and cannot be raised).  A victim who is nto slain by the swarm regainst lost levels at a rate of 1/day.
> 
> *Wraith roach swarm:* AL NE; AC 7; MV 9; FL 12 (A); HD 2; hp 14; THAC0 19; #AT 1 per swarm; Dmg nil; SA energy drain; SD impervious to edged/piercing weapons; hit only by magical blunt weapons and spells; SZ T; ML 15; XP 975.
> 
> Originally appeared in Dungeon #71 (1998).




That's a fine idea for an monster. Are they Undead or Gravetouched Vermin? There's no mention of vulnerability to turning or holy water, but their energy drain and rapid "create spawn" (spawn swarm!) ability says Undead to me.

Two Hit Dice seems too low for such a nasty monster, I'd prefer at least 6 HD like a Locust Swarm.

Actually, basing them on a Locust Swarm would seem a good idea.


----------



## Shade (Feb 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That's a fine idea for an monster. Are they Undead or Gravetouched Vermin? There's no mention of vulnerability to turning or holy water, but their energy drain and rapid "create spawn" (spawn swarm!) ability says Undead to me.
> 
> Two Hit Dice seems too low for such a nasty monster, I'd prefer at least 6 HD like a Locust Swarm.
> 
> Actually, basing them on a Locust Swarm would seem a good idea.




Agreed to all that.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed to all that.




What about the Undead/Gravetouched question?


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2011)

I somehow missed the gravetouched mention.  I'd say undead, since they do actually energy drain.  That seems too much of a stretch for vermin...they'd have to be magical beasts at that point (which I can live with).


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## Cleon (Feb 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> I somehow missed the gravetouched mention.  I'd say undead, since they do actually energy drain.  That seems too much of a stretch for vermin...they'd have to be magical beasts at that point (which I can live with).




There's no mention of turning or undead immunities, so I think we'd better go for the Magical Beast option.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2011)

So be it!  So, we're taking a locust swarm, making it a magical beast, and modify to suit our needs?


----------



## freyar (Feb 16, 2011)

These are neat.  With the energy drain, I guess we should mention that there's no Fort save needed to remove the negative levels after 24 hours, huh?


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> These are neat.  With the energy drain, I guess we should mention that there's no Fort save needed to remove the negative levels after 24 hours, huh?




A strict interpretation would be "no".  I'm fine with going that route or the traditional energy drain approach.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> A strict interpretation would be "no".  I'm fine with going that route or the traditional energy drain approach.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.




I like the "auto-recovery" of energy levels for them. It implies they only weaken their prey to kill them, but actually feed by devouring their victim's flesh.


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2011)

Updated.

Retain the locust swarm's +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot?

Skills: Hide +16, Listen +4, Spot +4, 9 ranks

Feats: 3

Organization: Solitary or x (2-4 swarms)  [x="infestation"?]

Challenge Rating: 4?  (Energy drain has to at least add +1 CR over a locust swarm)


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2011)

Infestation is good.

Keep the bonus to Listen and Spot and split the ranks between the 3 skills?

Not sure what feats they need, really.  Maybe Alertness, Imp Init, and Iron Will like hellwasps?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2011)

Since they are "eerily silent", how about adding a racial bonus on Move Silently, throwing some ranks in it, and giving 'em Stealthy rather than Iron Will?


----------



## freyar (Feb 18, 2011)

Sure, I'll go for that.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Retain the locust swarm's +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot?
> 
> ...




Keeping the racial boni is good, and I like "infestation".

I think CR 5 might be in order. Energy drain is nasty for a diminutive swarm, especially at relatively low levels.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Since they are "eerily silent", how about adding a racial bonus on Move Silently, throwing some ranks in it, and giving 'em Stealthy rather than Iron Will?




Good idea!

Feats: Alertness, Imp Init, Stealthy.

+4 racial bonus on Listen, Move Silently and Spot, with 3 ranks in each of those skills?


----------



## Shade (Feb 21, 2011)

Updated.  Anything left for this one?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Anything left for this one?




The original creatures were Neutral Evil, not Neutral. I'd like to keep that.

The "Environment: Cold aquatic" doesn't seem _quite_ right. 

*Environment:* Subterranean?
*Alignment:* Always neutral evil?

Oh, and the description has a "_eerily silient_" typo.


----------



## Shade (Feb 23, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Feb 23, 2011)

Looks pretty good!


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2011)

*Demonic Sawfly*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Swarm
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Blood
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: J,K,L
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 12, Fly 12 (B)
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Blood drain, insect swarm
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Shrinking
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5'-6' long)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE: 175

These creatures were let into the world accidentally by foolish practitioners of black magic.  They resemble reddish-brown daddy longlegs with wings, and they can stand upright on their spindly limbs (giving them a height of 5 or 6 feet).

Combat: A sawfly bites for 1-4 points of damage, and on the following round it causes 1-4 points of damage automatically due to blood drainage.  Afterward, it attempts to bite again.  Once per day a sawfly can summon a swarm of gnats and flies to assault its enemies (the equivalent of a summon swarm spell).

A sawfly can shrink at will to the size of an ordinary insect.  If a sawfly loses more than 50% of its hit points, it shrinks automatically.  If any normal gnats or flies are in the area, it mingles with them and becomes nearly impossible to spot.  Searchers can detect them by making a successful Intelligence check on 1d100.  In its diminutive state, the sawfly can dodge any attack if it makes a successful saving throw vs. wands.  However, any successful hit crushes it.  It cannot attack in small form.

Habitat/Society:  Demonic sawflies instinctively desire to swarm with others of their kind, but such swarms are rare on the Prime Material Plane.  Unlike most insects, the females lay merely one or two eggs per year, so only a handful of sawflies are found in any one area.  To make up for this low population density, sawflies join normal swarms of gnats and flies and follow them on their rounds.  They need blood to survive, however, so they will abandone their adopted swarms to feed.

Sawflies live longer than most insects, up to fifty years.  They go into hibernation in times of need, and they can survive in this condition for as long as one century.  The passage of any warm-blooded creature within 20 feet of a hibernating sawfly awakens it, and the insect attacks ravenously.

Since demonic sawflies lay eggs infrequently, they guard their broods jealously.  Sawfly eggs can be found hidden in out-of-the-way nooks and crannies of buildings, castles, and other relatively dry shelters.  A sawfly defending its eggs gains a +2 bonus on all attacks and saving throws.

Ecology:  Demonic sawflies might have been parasites on the monstrous inhabitants of another plane, as mosquitoes and fleas are parasites on the Material Plane.  Due to their shrinking ability, sawflies infiltrate castles and houses as easily as ordinary insects.  They are smart enough to realize that some cunning is needed to attack humans and other intelligent creatures.  They often hide in cupboards, closets, or cabinets, ready to spring out on unsuspecting victims.  Such hiding places might contain a small amount of treasure.

The blood and eggs of a demonic sawfly can be used in enlarge or reduce spells or potions.  Its wings, ground up, can be used as components of spells such as summon swarm.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #76 (1999).


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2011)

Extraplanar magical beasts?  They're too smart (and supernatural) to be vermin.

Model shrinking off the efreet's size change ability?

Summon swarm won't work, as bats, rats, or spiders aren't a good model.  We'd probably be better off coming up with a fly or gnat swarm (didn't we do a fly swarm somewhere already?)  I suppose we could just say "use a spider swarm, but give it a fly speed of x feet with x maneuverability and drop the poison", too.

It should probably take a ridiculously high Spot check to pick out a demonic sawfly hiding in a swarm.  It might also gain the swarm's immunity/half damage to weapons (depending upon the size of the swarm it hides within).


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## Cleon (Feb 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Extraplanar magical beasts?  They're too smart (and supernatural) to be vermin.




Yes, that's the type I'd go for too.



Shade said:


> Model shrinking off the efreet's size change ability?




Sounds OK.



Shade said:


> Summon swarm won't work, as bats, rats, or spiders aren't a good model.  We'd probably be better off coming up with a fly or gnat swarm (didn't we do a fly swarm somewhere already?)  I suppose we could just say "use a spider swarm, but give it a fly speed of x feet with x maneuverability and drop the poison", too.




I'd think a Bat Swarm would be a good fit except for the Animal type. We could always whip up a quick Fly Swarm.



Shade said:


> It should probably take a ridiculously high Spot check to pick out a demonic sawfly hiding in a swarm.  It might also gain the swarm's immunity/half damage to weapons (depending upon the size of the swarm it hides within).




Give it a hefty circumstance bonus on top of the impressive bonus it should already get from its size and Dex?

I wouldn't allow it the swarm DR, but its enemies wouldn't be able to target it if it succeeds at its "Hide in Swarm" check.


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2011)

Downsizing a spider eater to Medium and boosting Int...

Str 13, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 10, +2 nat armor

Look OK?


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## freyar (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm a little confused, are we also writing a swarm version of these?  Can't we just say they can hide amongst other insects?  Or masquerade as a verminous insect of Fine size or something?

Anyway, the abilities look ok.


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## Cleon (Mar 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Downsizing a spider eater to Medium and boosting Int...
> 
> Str 13, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 10, +2 nat armor
> 
> Look OK?




I'd cut the Strength and Constitution, since they're of flimsy build going by the description. Increase the Dex to compensate? Not sure about the NA, since the AD&D version had a pretty weak AC of 7.

Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 10, no natural armour?


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2011)

That's reasonable.  

Can you straighten out my confusion above?


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm a little confused, are we also writing a swarm version of these?  Can't we just say they can hide amongst other insects?  Or masquerade as a verminous insect of Fine size or something?




No swarm version--they just hide among existing swarms.   So probably some combination of your latter two sentences.

Cleon's suggested Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 10, no natural armor appeals. 

I'll get a Homebrews going shortly.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> No swarm version--they just hide among existing swarms.   So probably some combination of your latter two sentences.
> 
> Cleon's suggested Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 10, no natural armor appeals.




Thanks.



Shade said:


> I'll get a Homebrews going shortly.




I'll wait impatiently.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2011)

Standard and swift actions work for me.  

How about this?

Masquerade (Ex): When a demonic sawfly is Fine size, it appears to be a verminous insect unless the viewer succeeds at a DC 20? Spot or Knowledge (the planes)? check to recognize it as a magical creature.


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## Cleon (Mar 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Standard and swift actions work for me.
> 
> How about this?
> 
> Masquerade (Ex): When a demonic sawfly is Fine size, it appears to be a verminous insect unless the viewer succeeds at a DC 20? Spot or Knowledge (the planes)? check to recognize it as a magical creature.




I would prefer a Spot vs Disguise approach, with a hefty bonus (racial?) to the sawfly's Disguise check and maybe an additional even heftier circumstance penalty for when its concealing itself in a Swarm.


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I would prefer a Spot vs Disguise approach, with a hefty bonus (racial?) to the sawfly's Disguise check and maybe an additional even heftier circumstance penalty for when its concealing itself in a Swarm.




I agree, except I'd prefer an improved bonus (like many creatures' Hide bonus improving when immobile) rather than a penalty on the observer.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I agree, except I'd prefer an improved bonus (like many creatures' Hide bonus improving when immobile) rather than a penalty on the observer.




What the blazes? I could have sworn I put "circumstance bonus" in my last post, not "circumstance penalty".

In other words, I agree.


----------



## Shade (Mar 14, 2011)

Thus...

Masquerade (Ex): When a demonic sawfly assumes Fine size, it appears to be a verminous insect unless the viewer succeeds on a Spot check opposed by the sawfly's Disguise check.  The demonic sawfly gains a +8 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to masquerade as part of a swarm of Fine vermin.

Skills:  *A demonic sawfly has a +8 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate a mundane vermin.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Thus...
> 
> Masquerade (Ex): When a demonic sawfly assumes Fine size, it appears to be a verminous insect unless the viewer succeeds on a Spot check opposed by the sawfly's Disguise check.  The demonic sawfly gains a +8 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to masquerade as part of a swarm of Fine vermin.
> 
> Skills:  *A demonic sawfly has a +8 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate a mundane vermin.




I was thinking of a bigger circumstance bonus than that, somewhere between +12 and +20, and probably a +10 bonus to impersonate a single mundane vermin (i.e. same bonus as _disguise self_).


----------



## Shade (Mar 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking of a bigger circumstance bonus than that, somewhere between +12 and +20, and probably a +10 bonus to impersonate a single mundane vermin (i.e. same bonus as _disguise self_).




+10 racial, +12 circumstance appeals.


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## freyar (Mar 15, 2011)

Fair enough.  Let's go with that.


----------



## Shade (Mar 16, 2011)

Updated.



> A sawfly bites for 1-4 points of damage, and on the following round it causes 1-4 points of damage automatically due to blood drainage.  Afterward, it attempts to bite again.




Attach and blood drain like a stirge?

Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.

Blood Drain (Ex): A stirge drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. Once it has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the stirge’s appetite has been sated, the stirge detaches and seeks a new target.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2011)

Yes, I'd say so.  Just change stirge -> demonic sawfly.


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## Cleon (Mar 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Fair enough.  Let's go with that.




Suits me.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Attach and blood drain like a stirge?




Definitely, this is one of the few cases when I don't think it's necessary to reinvent the wheel.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2011)

Let's get rid of the (?) on the times in change size and move on. 

All the skill ranks should go into Disguise, I think, and I'd peg the Feat as SF (Disguise), but I could be persuaded otherwise if you prefer.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2011)

Updated.

The stirge's +12 racial bonus on grapple checks is a bit much for the sawfly (as it is Medium rather than Tiny).  I wouldn't mind retaining some bonus though.   Say, +4?

Environment: Any evil-aligned plane?

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: x
Type J,K,L is a handful of copper, silver, and gold.  So maybe incidental like a spider?

Advancement: x


----------



## freyar (Mar 21, 2011)

All suggestions are fine.  

CR 1, I think.  It's substantially better than a stirge, but not all that much.

Maybe advancement: 3-6 HD (Medium) or -.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> All suggestions are fine.
> 
> CR 1, I think.  It's substantially better than a stirge, but not all that much.
> 
> Maybe advancement: 3-6 HD (Medium) or -.




Agreed to all Shade's suggestions, and I prefer the 3-6 HD Advancement.


----------



## Shade (Mar 24, 2011)

Updated.

A demonic sawfly stands 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2011)

Scaling a stirge gives 125-225 lb, roughly.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> Scaling a stirge gives 125-225 lb, roughly.




Well crane flies are skinny, so call it 125 pounds?


----------



## freyar (Mar 29, 2011)

Works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Works for me.




Right, once Shade plugs that weight in it just needs some tactics and a bit more background text.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2011)

Plugged in.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> Plugged in.




It's still missing the original's _summon swarm_ ability.

How's this:

*Insect Summoning (Sp):* Once per day a demonic sawfly can summon a swarm of gnats and flies. This functions like a _summon swarm_ spell (CL X) except it summons a gnat swarm with the following statistics:

*Gnat Swarm*
Fine Vermin (Swarm)
*Hit Dice:* 3d8-3 (10 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), fly 40 ft. (good)
*Armor Class:* 22 (+8 size, +4 Dex), touch 22, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/—
*Attack:* Swarm (1d6)
*Full Attack:* Swarm (1d6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Distraction, wounding
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., immune to weapon damage, swarm traits, vermin traits
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 1, Dex 19, Con 8, Int –, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* Listen +4, Spot +4
*Feats:* —
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Alignment:* Always neutral

*Distraction (Ex):* Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 11 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Wounding (Ex):* Any living creature damaged by a gnat swarm continues to bleed, losing 1 hit point per round thereafter. Multiple wounds do not result in cumulative bleeding loss. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 10 Heal check or the application of a cure spell or some other healing magic.

*Skills:* A gnat swarm has a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.

Not sure about the Gnat Swarm. Its AC seems rather high. Maybe we'd be getter off making them "giant" gnats (Diminutive Vermin) and maybe lowering the Dex by 2 or 4, giving them Armour Class 18 to 16.

A high Dex and AC does seem appropriate for flies though, and it saves us having to rewrite masquerade to allow for a swarm of non-Fine sized insects. Although we might as well consider the possibility:*Masquerade (Ex):* When a demonic sawfly assumes Diminutive or Fine size, it appears to  be a verminous insect unless the viewer succeeds on a Spot check opposed  by the sawfly's Disguise check. The demonic sawfly gains a +12  circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to masquerade if it is within a swarm of vermin.​Speaking of which, the original monster could *only* shrink to the size of an ordinary insect, suggesting the Change Size should be:*Change Size (Su):* As a standard action, a demonic sawfly can magically shrink to the size of an ordinary insect. This functions like a reduce person spell, except that  the ability can work on the demonic sawfly and it reduces its size to Fine.  A demonic sawfly can return to normal size as a swift  action.​Alternatively, we could make the Swarm distraction only, but IIRC the AD&D _insect swarm_ spell inflicted damage.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Right, once Shade plugs that weight in it just needs some tactics and a bit more background text.




How's this for the rest of the text:

_This creature resembles a winged, reddish-brown daddy longlegs with long, spindly limbs._

Demonic sawflies swarm in the lower planes, but can be encountered on the prime material plane in small numbers, since they are occasionally summoned by foolish black magicians.

These fiendish insects must feed off blood to survive. When no blood is available they can hibernate for up to a century, awakening instantly if they smell a warm-blooded creature. if no blood is available. Individuals can live up to 50 years (not including periods spent in hibernation). Their long lifespan is balanced by slow reproduction; a female demonic sawfly lays merely 1 or 2 eggs per year.

A demonic sawfly stands 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs 125 pounds.

*COMBAT*
 Demonic sawflies spend most of their time shrunk to Fine size, either hiding in a closet or crevice or accompanying a swarm of flying insects. Upon sensing prey they revert to their full size and attack, seeking to batten on to an opponent and suck their blood.

If a demonic sawfly is injured to less than half its hit points it instinctively shrinks to gnat-size and seeks to flee.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2011)

Flavor text and tactics look good.  Updated.



Cleon said:


> Not sure about the Gnat Swarm. Its AC seems rather high. Maybe we'd be getter off making them "giant" gnats (Diminutive Vermin) and maybe lowering the Dex by 2 or 4, giving them Armour Class 18 to 16.
> 
> A high Dex and AC does seem appropriate for flies though, and it saves us having to rewrite masquerade to allow for a swarm of non-Fine sized insects. Although we might as well consider the possibility




I'd prefer Fine gnats.



Cleon said:


> Speaking of which, the original monster could *only* shrink to the size of an ordinary insect, suggesting the Change Size should be:*Change Size (Su):* As a standard action, a demonic sawfly can magically shrink to the size of an ordinary insect. This functions like a reduce person spell, except that  the ability can work on the demonic sawfly and it reduces its size to Fine.  A demonic sawfly can return to normal size as a swift  action.​




I suppose we need to decide, then.  I'm perfectly content with just Fine size, and thus using the revised Change Size (but current Masquerade).



Cleon said:


> Alternatively, we could make the Swarm distraction only, but IIRC the AD&D _insect swarm_ spell inflicted damage.




I like sticking with damage, but I'm not sure it needs wounding.  Swarms of gnats don't generally leave me in a pool of my own blood!


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## Cleon (Apr 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Flavor text and tactics look good.  Updated.
> 
> I'd prefer Fine gnats.
> 
> ...




Swarms of gnats don't normally kill an average Commoner in a few rounds either.

If the swarm's powerful enough to inflict 1d6 damage per round, it felt right that a swarm of blood-sucking insects (gnats, mosquitoes, horse flies or whatever) would have Wounding too.


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Swarms of gnats don't normally kill an average Commoner in a few rounds either.




Good point!  Maybe your idea of distraction only makes sense.  The sawfly doesn't really want the swarm it summons to kill the victim, just keep it busy so it can make a surpise attack and feed.   Thoughts?


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## Cleon (Apr 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Good point!  Maybe your idea of distraction only makes sense.  The sawfly doesn't really want the swarm it summons to kill the victim, just keep it busy so it can make a surpise attack and feed.   Thoughts?




Something like:

*Gnat Swarm*
Fine Vermin (Swarm)
*Hit Dice:* 3d8-3 (10 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), fly 40 ft. (good)
*Armor Class:* 22 (+8 size, +4 Dex), touch 22, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/—
*Attack:* —
 *Full Attack:* —
 *Space/Reach:* 10 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Distraction
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., immune to weapon damage, swarm traits, vermin traits
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 1, Dex 19, Con 8, Int –, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* Listen +4, Spot +4
*Feats:* —
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Alignment:* Always neutral

*Distraction (Ex):*  Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its space must  succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save  DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.

*Skills:* A gnat swarm has a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.


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## Shade (Apr 11, 2011)

I think that'll work, and should make for an interesting tactical approach to the encounter.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2011)

I like the newer gnat swarm, too.  Looks good!


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2011)

Updated.

CL for summon gnat swarm?  Maybe 8?


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I think that'll work, and should make for an interesting tactical approach to the encounter.




Good!

That leaves spell level / caster level then.

Since it now does no damage I'd suggest making it equivalent to a 1st level spell rather than 2nd level like like _summon swarm_? It still causes distraction, of course, but the DC is pretty feeble.

Caster level 3rd?

* Summon Gnat Swarm (Sp):* Once per day, a demonic sawfly can summon a  swarm of gnats. This functions like a _summon swarm _spell, except  it summons a gnat swarm (see below) and is equivalent to a 1st level spell (CL 3rd).


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2011)

Agreed.  Updated.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Updated.




Its Armor Class should be touch 13, flat-footed 10, not vica-versa.

Do we want to include any of this:



> In its diminutive state, the sawfly can dodge any attack if it makes a successful saving throw vs. wands. However, any successful hit crushes it. It cannot attack in small form.




That suggests rewriting the Change Size SQ. How's this.

*Reduce Size (Su):* As a standard action, a demonic sawfly can magically reduce itself to Fine size. The demonic sawfly can remain in Fine size for as long as it wishes and it can return to normal size as a swift action. While Fine-sized, a demonic sawfly loses its natural attack, but gains an ability to evade its enemies' attacks. It has the following statistics:

*Demonic Sawfly**, Reduced*
Fine Magical Beast (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 2d10 (11 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 30 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 21 (+8 size, +3 Dex), touch 21, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-19
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: ½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Change size, masquerade, summon gnat swarm
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., evade attacks, improved evasion, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 10

_*Evade Attacks (Ex):* _Anytime a Fine-size demonic sawfly would be hit by a weapon attack, it may attempt to dodge the blow. If if succeeds at a Reflex save (including a +4 size bonus, for Ref +10) against a DC equal to the attack roll of its opponent, the sawfly dodges the weapon attack and takes no damage.

A Fine-sized demonic sawfly can also evade magical and unusual attacks that normally deals half damage on a successful Reflex saving throw. If the demonic sawfly makes a successful Reflex saving throw (Ref +10, including a +4 size bonus) against such an attack it takes no damage, it takes only half damage on a failed save.

 A helpless demonic sawfly, or one with medium or heavy encumbrance, can not use evade attacks.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2011)

I'll fix the ACs.  Thanks!

While I appreciate the effort, I'm not real fond of changing it any more than usual for its size reduction to Fine.

freyar?


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2011)

I think the original monster was trying to model the improved AC due to changing size.  I'd just leave it like the standard ability.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

In that case, are we done here?


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## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'll fix the ACs.  Thanks!
> 
> While I appreciate the effort, I'm not real fond of changing it any more than usual for its size reduction to Fine.
> 
> freyar?






freyar said:


> I think the original monster was trying to model  the improved AC due to changing size.  I'd just leave it like the  standard ability.




So you'd both rather just give it the standard +8 Dex for a Medium to Fine size change? I like my Cleon Special version a lot better.

Still, if you want to gang up and just go for the dull conventional approach, I won't stand in you're way. *sniff sniff* 

Besides, you can't stop me using that SQ for my own version of this demonfly...


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Yeah, keep it Special.


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## Cleon (Apr 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yeah, keep it Special.




So are we going to give them the reverse of the standard size advancement, the same adjustments as the _reduce person_ spell, or something in between?

In either case, I think we ought to include a mini statblock for the Fine version, to make it convenient for the DM.


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2011)

Like reduce person, as it says in homebrews.  But I guess we should specify it takes those adjustments per size category.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Like reduce person, as it says in homebrews.  But I guess we should specify it takes those adjustments per size category.




So +8 Dex, -8 Str, +4 size bonus to AC and attack rolls, since it's a 4 size category shift?


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So +8 Dex, -8 Str, +4 size bonus to AC and attack rolls, since it's a 4 size category shift?




Sure.  I'm not sure we need a revised stat block, but if you want to put in the effort, I'll include it.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2011)

*Utuchekulu*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical jungle
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low to High (3-18)
TREASURE: M (individual), B (lair)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 3-30
ARMOR CLASS: By armor type
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 1-6 hp or by class
THAC0: By class and level
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or more
DAMAGE/ATTACK: by weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Tooth, poison, traps
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Resistance to poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: S (3’ tall)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 35 or more

The utuchekulu are an offshoot breed of dwarves that live in the jungles of the Dark Continent.  They have ebony skin, black hair, and dark eyes.  Their most distinguishing feature is the single blood red fang that protrudes from one side of their mouth.  The utuchekulu have been sundered from their northern kin since primeval times, even longer than the duergar, evolving separately in the jungle.  Sometime in their past, the utuchekulu mixed with something foul and unnatural.  Today, they are an evil, man-eathing people.

Although they are dwarfish in ancestry, the utuchekulu have little resemblance to their northern kin.  Utuchekulu do not live underground, and they have thin and scanty beards, often shaved.  However, they do retain their dwarfish abilities to working with metal and stone and have a dwarf’s resistance to poison and magic.

Combat: Where northern dwarves wield axes and hammers, the utuchekulu carry spears, short bows, knives, clubs, and machetes.  They have a special method of preparing rhino and hippo hides itno very hard and durable leather.  Armor made from this has a base AC of 7.  If the utuchekulu has surprise against an opponent, he can leap up to 5’ and attack with the fang.  With surprise, the fang does 2-12 damage; without surprise, the fang causes only 1-6 damage.   The utuchekulu use hunting poison on their arrowheads (see sidebar).  The utuchekulu excel at building blinds for ambushes.  When attacking from an ambush, the utuchekulu gain a -2 bonus on the surprise roll.  They are also known to set numerous pits and snares around their lairs.

Habitat/Society:  Like other dwarves, the utuchekulu excel at working stone.  But instead of digging underground, they prefer to occupy abandoned stone ruins (there are many on the Dark Continent) and rebuild them.  Every clan has two or three smiths to make tools and weapons of steel.

The utuchekulu live in tribal bands, usually ruled by the strongest fighter.  Priests are respected advisors, but they do not rule.  The bulk of the men are warriors; hunters, champions, defenders.  A village’s population will be 2/3 women and children, 1/3 adult men.

The utuchekulu survive mainly by huntin game and humans.  Women and children forage for small game, eggs, grubs, and fish.  Utuchekulu are zealous man-eaters and hunt humans as game.

Ecology:  Utuchekulu are omnivores, eating much the same food as humans, except for their man-eating habits.  While northerners will kill them as foes, natives of the Dark Continent have superstitious fears of their spiritual powers, and avoid them.  Of course, any native tribe attacked outright will defend itself, but natives do not go looking for the utuchekulu.

Sidebar:  Hunting Poison

The pygmies have developed a special poison made from certain beetle larvae, used to bring down large game.  The poison is placed only on arrowheads.  Anyone hit by a poisoned arrow must save vs. poison at -2.  Failure means that the victim is slowed (as the spell) one round later, and paralyzed two rounds after being hit.  The paralyzation lasts 1-4 turns.  One hour after the victim has been poisoned, the poison completely breaks down, and dead game is safe to eat.  A successful save means that the victim suffers no ill effects.

The utuchekulu also use hunting poison, but a much more potent version.  Again, it is used only on arrowheads.  Anyone hit must save vs. poison at -2.  Failure means that the victim is slowed one round after being hit, paralyzed the second round, and dead the third round.  Even a successful save causes the victim to be slowed one round after being hit and paralyzed for the next three rounds.  The poison breaks down completely two hours after the inititial poisoning.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #56  (1995).


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## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sure.  I'm not sure we need a revised stat block, but if you want to put in the effort, I'll include it.




Thus..?

*Reduce Size (Su):* As a standard action, a demonic  sawfly can magically reduce itself to Fine size. The demonic sawfly can  remain in Fine size for as long as it wishes and it can return to normal  size as a swift action. While Fine-sized, a demonic sawfly loses its  natural attack, but gains +8 size bonus to Dexterity and AC, plus a -8 size penalty to Strength. This gives it the following statistics:

*Demonic Sawfly**, Reduced*
Fine Magical Beast (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 2d10+2 (13 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 30 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 25 (+8 size, +7 Dex), touch 25, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-19
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: ½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Change size, masquerade, summon gnat swarm
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +10, Will +1
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 25, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 10


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## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Utuchekulu*
> 
> Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #56  (1995).




Well modifying an SRD Dwarf seems the obvious approach.

They're a good deal shorter than a regular Dwarf, so I'm thinking they ought to be Small. They've got worse HD than an AD&D dwarf (1-6 vs the 1d8 Hill dwarf or the 1d8+1 Mountain dwarf), so either a Con penalty or a different default class (Rogue instead of Warrior?). I prefer a Con penalty.

Their special tricks appear to be:

*Poison Use* (use the standard version, we can copy most of it from the Hsing-sing).

*Ambushes* (racial bonus to Hide?)

*Fang Pounce* (a 1d6 bite attack, doubled on a surprise charge or Jump?)

*Special Leather* (protects like Hide armour, weighs like Leather armour? Could just make it masterwork Hide armour, I suppose)


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2011)

I'll go for Small, but not the Con penalty.  I could probably live without the dwarven Con bonus, though.

The fang attack sounds like it would best be served with a normal bite attack combined with powerful charge.

Agreed to poison use, racial bonus to Hide, and masterwork Hide armor.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'll go for Small, but not the Con penalty.  I could probably live without the dwarven Con bonus, though.




Well I was thinking they should have a lower Constitution than a SRD Dwarf rather than an absolute penalty, I'd be fine with a +0 racial adjustment to Con.

A regular AD&D human has 1-6 hit points too, and they're +0 Con.

Is there anything to suggest a racial bonus in any ability scores? They have the standard range of intelligence, and no mention of high Dexterity or Strength.

The "natives of the Dark Continent have superstitious fears of their spiritual powers, and avoid them" bit may suggest some gain levels in spellcasting classes, so perhaps a bonus to Wisdom or Charisma?

I suppose we could just not give them any racial bonuses to ability scores. It'd make a change!



Shade said:


> The fang attack sounds like it would best be served with a normal bite attack combined with powerful charge.
> 
> Agreed to poison use, racial bonus to Hide, and masterwork Hide armor.




Powerful Charge fits well.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2011)

+0 Con bonus sounds right.  No ability score bonus is interesting as a change indeed!

I can agree to all the rest, too.


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## Cleon (Apr 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> +0 Con bonus sounds right.  No ability score bonus is interesting as a change indeed!
> 
> I can agree to all the rest, too.




Let's start roughing something out then...


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## Cleon (Apr 26, 2011)

*Utuchekulu Working Draft*

*Utuchekulu*
*Utuchekulu, 1st level warrior*
Small Monstrous Humanoid
  Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
  Initiative: +0
  Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
  Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +3 masterwork hide armor), touch 11, flat-footed 14
  Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-2
  Attack: Spear +3 melee (1d6+1/×3) or bite +3 melee (1d6+1) or mighty [+1] shortbow +2 ranged (1d4+1/×3 plus poison) or spear +2 ranged (1d6+1/×3)
[maybe add shortsword +3 melee (1d6+1/19-20×3)?]
Full Attack: Spear +3 melee (1d6+1/×3) or bite +3 melee (1d6+1) or mighty [+1] shortbow +2 ranged (1d4+1/×3 plus poison) or spear +2 ranged (1d6+1/×3)
  Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
  Special Attacks: Poison use, powerful charge
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., utuchekulu traits
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +0
  Abilities: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
  Skills: 8
  Feats: 1
  Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Team (2-4), squad (5-8 plus 1 3rd-level champion), or tribe (10-30 plus 200% noncombatants plus 2-4 3rd-level champions and 1 chief of 4th-7th level)
  Challenge Rating: 1?
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items?
  Alignment: Usually lawful evil
  Advancement: By character class
  Level Adjustment: +0?


_Description_

Stuff

The utuchekulu warrior presented here had the following ability scores  before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.  

*COMBAT*
Tactics

*Utuchekulu Traits** (Ex):* Armour bearing, stonecunning, stability, +2 save vs poison, spells and SLAs, +2 racial bonus to Hide checks, +2 racial bonus on Appraise or Craft checks related to stone *or leather*. [As dwarf, except for the bits in red]

*Poison Use (Ex):* Utuchekulu  typically carry X doses of Y or Z, poison to apply to their arrowheads. Utuchekulu are not at risk of poisoning themselves when handling poison.

*Powerful Charge (Ex):* When a utuchekulu charges, its bite attack deals 2d6+2 points of damage.

*Skills:* Utuchekulu  have a +2 racial bonus to Hide checks. *Utuchekulu  have a +2 racial bonus on Appraise or Craft checks related to stone or leather.


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

We could probably shoehorn some of the SRD poisons into these, but we might want to write up a new paralysis-based poison.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2011)

Cleon said:


> *Utuchekulu Traits** (Ex):* Armour bearing, stonecunning, stability, +2 save vs poison, spells and SLAs, +2 racial bonus to Hide checks, +2 racial bonus on Appraise or Craft checks related to stone *or leather*. [As dwarf, except for the bits in red]




By "armour bearing" do you mean the dwarf's ability to move at its base speed in heavy armor?  

We might as well keep the following as well:

+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids (might swap 'em out for different jungle-dwelling humanoids)
weapon familiarity (but to spears, short bows, knives, clubs, and machetes instead)



freyar said:


> We could probably shoehorn some of the SRD poisons into these, but we might want to write up a new paralysis-based poison.  What do you think?




Yeah, let's do the "hunting poisons" as their own writeup.


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## freyar (Apr 27, 2011)

Agreed to keeping those racial features, and I would swap the orcs out at least.  There are some giants and goblinoids that live in jungles in some monster books, though.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Agreed to keeping those racial features, and I would swap the orcs out at least.  There are some giants and goblinoids that live in jungles in some monster books, though.




How about replacing orcs with yuan-ti?


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2011)

Works for me.


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## Cleon (May 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> By "armour bearing" do you mean the dwarf's ability to move at its base speed in heavy armor?




Yes I do. 



Shade said:


> We might as well keep the following as well:
> 
> +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
> +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
> ...



I'd included most of that in the traits list. I'd be happy to drop the attack bonus vs. particular humanoid(s). They already get +1 to hit for being Small.

No point giving them familiarity with spears, knives or clubs, since those are simple weapons. I'd go for shortsword & falchion to represent "machetes" (either little ones of great big choppers).

Maybe add a few more weapons, like the dwarven axe or double-axe.



Shade said:


> Yeah, let's do the "hunting poisons" as their own writeup.




Sounds reasonable.


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## freyar (May 2, 2011)

Good point about the attack bonus and Small sizes.  

It's probably also reasonable to let them be familiar with "dwarven" weapons, though it might be nice to keep them a little more distinct.


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## Shade (May 4, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (May 5, 2011)

Ready for the poison?


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## Shade (May 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ready for the poison?




Yup.  It looks like there are two strengths:  



> Sidebar:  Hunting Poison
> 
> The pygmies have developed a special poison made from certain beetle larvae, used to bring down large game.  The poison is placed only on arrowheads.  Anyone hit by a poisoned arrow must save vs. poison at -2.  Failure means that the victim is slowed (as the spell) one round later, and paralyzed two rounds after being hit.  The paralyzation lasts 1-4 turns.  One hour after the victim has been poisoned, the poison completely breaks down, and dead game is safe to eat.  A successful save means that the victim suffers no ill effects.
> 
> The utuchekulu also use hunting poison, but a much more potent version.  Again, it is used only on arrowheads.  Anyone hit must save vs. poison at -2.  Failure means that the victim is slowed one round after being hit, paralyzed the second round, and dead the third round.  Even a successful save causes the victim to be slowed one round after being hit and paralyzed for the next three rounds.  The poison breaks down completely two hours after the inititial poisoning.




Slowed/paralyzed for the former, paralyzed on failed save (and slowed on success)/Con damage for the latter?

Call one of 'em "hunting poison" and the other "greater hunting poison" or "slaying poison"?


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## freyar (May 6, 2011)

That sounds good to me!


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## Shade (May 10, 2011)

Like so?

_Hunting Poison:_  Injury, Fortitude DC x, initial damage slowed (as the spell) for xdx rounds/minutes, secondary damage paralyzed 1d4 rounds. A poisoned victim's flesh transmits the hunting poison as an ingested poison for one hour.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

_Greater Hunting Poison:_  Injury, Fortitude DC x, initial damage paralyzed 1d4 rounds, secondary damage 2d6 Con.  Even with a successful save, a victim is still slowed (as the spell) for xdx rounds/minutes.  A poisoned victim's flesh transmits the hunting poison as an ingested poison for two hours.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (May 10, 2011)

Slowed for 1d10 minutes?  Enough for a second encounter?


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## Shade (May 12, 2011)

Sure.  

While we await Cleon's opinion on the poison, let's finish up a few other missing bits:

Skills: 8 warrior ranks

Feats: 1

An utuchekulu is 3 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (May 12, 2011)

4 ranks each in Climb and Swim?  Could also see swiping a few for Intimidate.

Weapon Focus on something, maybe -- perhaps on the bows to help them deliver the poison better?


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## Shade (May 12, 2011)

Good ideas.  How about Climb 2, Intimidate 2, Swim 4 and Weapon Focus (shortbow)?


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## freyar (May 12, 2011)

Works for me.


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## Shade (May 13, 2011)

Cool.  Updated.


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## freyar (May 13, 2011)

Don't forget to list the poisons!  Maybe given them 4 total doses.

CR 1/2?


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## Shade (May 13, 2011)

Updated.   Suggested DCs for the poisons?  Maybe 13 for the lesser, 15 for greater?


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## freyar (May 16, 2011)

Sounds good.

At 3 ft tall, I'd just take a halfling and add about 20-30 lb for the weight (make them a bit chunky).  So 55-70 lb?


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## Shade (May 18, 2011)

Updated.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sure.
> 
> While we await Cleon's opinion on the poison, let's finish up a few other missing bits:




I think we might be better calling them Slowing Poison and Slaying Poison.

Also, if the slowing poison is for use against big game, I think it should have a higher Fort DC (since large animals tend to have very good Fort saves). I'd also consider giving it a DC bonus against creatures with the Animal type.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Good ideas.  How about Climb 2, Intimidate 2, Swim 4 and Weapon Focus (shortbow)?




Works for me.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> At 3 ft tall, I'd just take a halfling and add about 20-30 lb for the weight (make them a bit chunky).  So 55-70 lb?




Let's see.

Male Halfling - average 3'1", 35 lbs
Female Halfling - average 2'11", 30 lbs
Male Dwarf - average 4'2", 165 lbs
Female Dwarf - average 4'0", 135 lbs

Assuming the same proportion, scaling down a dwarf to 3 feet gives us:

Male 3' Dwarf - 61.58592 lbs.
Female 3' Dwarf - 56.953125 lbs.

That's a pretty good match to freyar's 55-70 pounds. I wouldn't mind stretching the range a bit, say to 50-75 pounds?


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## Shade (May 19, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I think we might be better calling them Slowing Poison and Slaying Poison.
> 
> Also, if the slowing poison is for use against big game, I think it should have a higher Fort DC (since large animals tend to have very good Fort saves). I'd also consider giving it a DC bonus against creatures with the Animal type.




I don't really care for the name "slowing poison"...how about sticking with "hunting poison" for that one?  Or lets come up with something else.

The DC bonus vs. animal is an interesting idea.  Any objections, freyar?


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## Cleon (May 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> I don't really care for the name "slowing poison"...how about sticking with "hunting poison" for that one?  Or lets come up with something else.
> 
> The DC bonus vs. animal is an interesting idea.  Any objections, freyar?




I actually liked hunting poison and slaying poison better, but was playing around with some alternatives.


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## freyar (May 23, 2011)

Hunting and slaying works.

I won't object too strenuously to a DC bonus vs animals, but I'd rather just increase the DC all over.  After all, humanoids are really animals, too.


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## Shade (May 24, 2011)

Good point!   How high shall we raise the DCs?


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## Cleon (May 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hunting and slaying works.
> 
> I won't object too strenuously to a DC bonus vs animals, but I'd rather just increase the DC all over.  After all, humanoids are really animals, too.




Not according to their Monster Type they aren't. 



Shade said:


> Good point!   How high shall we raise the DCs?




If we use a Bison as a typical "big game" it'd need a DC 18 to have a 50% of working, since that animal has a +7 Fort save.

I'd be OK dropping it to DC 15, like the Slaying Poison, for a 35% chance. The jungle dwarves are likely to shoot multiple darts at large prey items.


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## freyar (May 30, 2011)

Either DC 15 or 18 works, so I'll let Shade decide.


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## Shade (May 31, 2011)

So, DC 15 for both?


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## Cleon (May 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Either DC 15 or 18 works, so I'll let Shade decide.




I'm willing to humour his opinion.


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## Shade (May 31, 2011)

I honestly don't have a strong opinion on this!   Just go with DC 15?


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## Cleon (May 31, 2011)

Shade said:


> I honestly don't have a strong opinion on this!   Just go with DC 15?




Go somewhere in-between, like 16?


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2011)

16 it is!   Updated.

Finished?


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> 16 it is!   Updated.
> 
> Finished?




We were going to change the "Greater Hunting Poison" to "Slaying Poison".

I'd suggest cutting the automatic slow effect, maybe do it like this:

_Slaying Poison:_ Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial damage  paralyzed 1d4 rounds plus slowed (as the spell) for 1d10 minutes, secondary damage 2d6 Con. A  poisoned victim's flesh transmits the hunting poison as an ingested  poison for two hours.

There are two typos, one in the flavour "they are an evil, man-eathing people" and another in tactics "rhino and hippo hides itno".


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2011)

The revision to the poison and DC 16 are ok by me.


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## Shade (Jun 6, 2011)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2011)

Done now?


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Done now?




I believe so.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2011)

*Snake, Giant Fanged Python*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 5 
MOVE: 12"//12"
HIT DICE: 8+1
% IN LAIR: 60
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite and 1-3 constrictions
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 per bite and 1-8 per constriction
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison, continuous damage (constriction)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (40-50’)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP Value:  V/825 + 10 per hp

The fanged python is a survivor from the days when reptiles ruled all the world. Now it is found only in jungle areas.  The fanged python is a doubly dangerous creature, as it has both a poisonous bite and constriction ability.  Its poison is extremely toxic, and a large amount is injected with each bite.  Persons bitten must save vs. poison at -2 or die in the next round.

Much like a normal constrictor, the fanged python likes to drop on its prey from above.  Although it can capture one creature each round, it is capable of squeezing up to three creatures at once and also delivering a poisonous bite each round.

The poison glands of the fanged python are worth 100 gp to an assassin or alchemist.  If two snakes are encountered (5% chance), they are a mated pair with a clutch of 1-6 eggs worth 200 gp each.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #63 (1989).


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2011)

Just take an SRD giant constrictor snake and add some nasty poison?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Just take an SRD giant constrictor snake and add some nasty poison?




Probably. This should be a fairly fast conversion.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Snake, Giant Fanged Python*
> FREQUENCY: Very rare
> NO. APPEARING: 1-2
> ARMOR CLASS: 5
> ...




Seems pretty straightforward.

Combine a Giant Constrictor Snake with a Huge Viper.

Just averaging the stats should bring us pretty close.

I'll do a rough draft.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

*Giant Fanged Python Working Draft*

*Snake, Giant Fanged Python*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 8d8+14 (63 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft., swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (–2 size, +3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+19
*Attack:* Bite +13 melee (1d6+7)
*Full Attack:* Bite +13 melee (1d6+7)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Constrict 1d8+7, improved grab, poison
*Special Qualities:* Scent
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 21, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +13, Hide +6, Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +13
*Feats:* Ability Focus (poison), Improved Initiative, Run, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm forests and marshes
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 5
*Advancement:* 9–16 HD (Huge); 17–24 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_Description_

Stuff

A typical giant fanged python is between 40 and 50 feet long and weighs about X pounds.

*COMBAT
*
Tactics

*Constrict (Ex):* On a successful grapple check, a giant fanged python deals 1d8+7 points of damage.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a giant fanged python must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

*Poison (Ex):* A giant fanged python has a poisonous bite that deals initial and secondary damage of 2d6 Con (Fortitude save DC 17). The save DCs are Constitution-based.

*Skills:* Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2011)

Lookin' good.

Since "Its poison is extremely toxic, and a large amount is injected with each bite", perhaps boost the Con damage a bit more to help differentiate it?   Maybe 2d8?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2011)

I'll agree to 2d8.  That's pretty deadly.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Lookin' good.
> 
> Since "Its poison is extremely toxic, and a large amount is injected with each bite", perhaps boost the Con damage a bit more to help differentiate it?   Maybe 2d8?




I already doubled the Con damage from a regular Huge Viper's 1d6 to a Wyvern's 2d6.

Do we really need more? 4d6 total is enough to kill a Large dinosaur with a lucky roll. If anything, I'd rather add a racial bonus to the DC since dinosaurs and other Prehistoric Beasts tend to have good Fort saves and the Fanged Python's Con 13 doesn't give it a very good poison DC.

That would also allow us to swap the AF (poison) for something else.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I already doubled the Con damage from a regular Huge Viper's 1d6 to a Wyvern's 2d6.
> 
> Do we really need more? 4d6 total is enough to kill a Large dinosaur with a lucky roll. If anything, I'd rather add a racial bonus to the DC since dinosaurs and other Prehistoric Beasts tend to have good Fort saves and the Fanged Python's Con 13 doesn't give it a very good poison DC.
> 
> That would also allow us to swap the AF (poison) for something else.




I didn't realize you'd already doubled the damage.  What you have is fine.  I like the idea of the racial bonus and different feat.  +2 or even +4 racial bonus?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2011)

Heck, go for a +4 bonus.  DC 19 isn't completely out of the question for CR 5.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Jun 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Heck, go for a +4 bonus.  DC 19 isn't completely out of the question for CR 5.




I agree to +4. We can always increase the CR to 6 like a Wyvern.

What feat do you think?

Combat Reflexes?


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2011)

Combat Reflexes sounds good.

It's at least as dangerous and tough as a wyvern.  CR 6 for sure.  Don't think it has enough to be CR 7 quite, though.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Combat Reflexes sounds good.
> 
> It's at least as dangerous and tough as a wyvern.  CR 6 for sure.  Don't think it has enough to be CR 7 quite, though.




Yes, Challenge Rating 6 works better for me, too.

Extrapolating from the weight of our Giant Titanoboa conversion its weight works out to 3000-4882 pounds.

Shall we call it "about 4000 pounds", the normal minimum for Huge?


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




Hold on, it still has a giant constrictor's hit points, It should be:

Hit Dice: 8d8+8 (44 hp)

Hmm, that's not very impressive.

Anyone game for arbitrarily increasing its Constitution by +4?

That would give it Con 17, HD 8d8+24 and 60 hit points, Fort +9, and allow us to swap the racial bonus to poison for Ability Focus (poison) while keeping the DC the same.

EDIT: I also forgot to include its Improved Initiative bonus, its Initiative is +7.

At least its skills worked out when I double checked them!


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hold on, it still has a giant constrictor's hit points, It should be:
> 
> Hit Dice: 8d8+8 (44 hp)
> 
> ...




I'll agree to all that except Ability Focus.  Let's just retain a +2 racial bonus to offset the added Con.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'll agree to all that except Ability Focus.  Let's just retain a +2 racial bonus to offset the added Con.
> 
> Updated.




Yes, I'd rather give them another feat as well.

Alertness, Iron Will, Stealthy, Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Focus (bite)?

A bit boring, but I find Skill Focus (Hide) or Stealthy are the most tempting of those.

Any preferences?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I'd rather give them another feat as well.
> 
> Alertness, Iron Will, Stealthy, Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Focus (bite)?
> 
> ...




Let's go with Skill Focus (Hide).  They'll probably drop down from trees upon prey, and this will improve their chances of ambush.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's go with Skill Focus (Hide).  They'll probably drop down from trees upon prey, and this will improve their chances of ambush.
> 
> Updated.




I'm leaning slightly toward Stealthy, since they're faster than regular snakes (30 ft. instead of 20 ft. speed) they might be game for sneaking up to prey as well as attacking from stationary.

Maybe add Move Silently to the "Snake Bonus skills?

*Feats:* Improved Initiative, Run, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)

*Fanged #1:* Balance +11, Climb +13, Hide +8, Listen +7, Move Silently +5, Spot +7, Swim +13

*Fanged #2:* Balance +11, Climb +13, Hide +8, Listen +7, Move Silently +9, Spot +7, Swim +13

*Skills:* Fanged pythons have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks  and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always  choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes  use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb  checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim  check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always  choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It  can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight  line.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's go with Skill Focus (Hide).  They'll probably drop down from trees upon prey, and this will improve their chances of ambush.
> 
> Updated.




I'm thinking we should change the Organisation to "Solitary or pair", since the original says they form mated pairs.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2011)

Agreed to all that.  Updated.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed to all that.  Updated.




That seems about it for them mechanically, so it's just flavour & tactics for them.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2011)

Any suggestions?  It sounds like they were intended to be "relics of a bygone age", almost like "dire serpents" if you will.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Any suggestions?  It sounds like they were intended to be "relics of a bygone age", almost like "dire serpents" if you will.




Well, since you asked... 

_An enormous python with a body as thick as a small tree. When the snake opens  its mouth and hisses, it reveals that its bone-crushing coils are the lesser of its weapons, for the python's gaping jaws have venom-dripping fangs the size of stilettos._

Giant fanged pythons are survivors of an ancient lineage, descended from an age when reptiles ruled the world. These serpents are only found in jungles, where they prey on any living creature small enough for them to swallow (a regular-sized specimen can swallow a tapir or bison, the biggest fanged pythons are said to be able to swallow elephants).

These snakes are easily identified by their eponymous fangs. Their coils are not quite as muscular as an ordinary giant  constrictor snake, but the extremely toxic venom in their fangs more than compensates.

Fanged pythons are excellent climbers and powerful swimmers, who will often be found up a tree, or in or near a river. Like any predator, they hunt wherever their prey congregates, so are usually encountered around game trails, drinking holes, and salt licks. These snakes hunt humanoids as readily as animals, even slithering into villages or aboard riverboats to snatch a victim.

One unusual trait of fanged pythons is that they're more social than most snakes. During the breeding season they form mated pairs who cooperate to guard their nest and its eggs. *[*_Do we want to give a number and value for the eggs?_*]*.

A typical giant fanged python is between 40 and 50 feet long and weighs about 4000 pounds.

*COMBAT
*
A giant fanged python's favorite tactic is dropping on prey from above, typically from a tree or cliff. They will also ambush opponents by hiding in water or undergrowth. Fanged pythons move fast for a snake, and will often chase after prey who escapes their initial lunge.

A fanged python tries to constrict as many opponents as it can handle, while using its poisonous bite against whichever foe is giving it the most trouble. These snakes are confident in their lethality, so will fight small groups of man-sized opponents simultaneously (such as adventurers). If they face an opponent too strong to easily constrict, such as a rhinoceros, a fanged python tries to inflict a few poisonous bites, then slithers away to wait for  their venom to take effect.

Their weapons may be deadly, but fanged pythons are as keen to avoid death or injury as any serpents. They would much rather ambush weaker or unprepared victims than risk a straight-up fight against opponents of matching power. These snakes will readily slither away ff an encounter turns against it, taking whatever route seems the safest. Typically, an escaping giant fanged python will climb a tree, dive into a river, or disappear down a burrow or snake-pit.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2011)

Well, that looks pretty good to me!  I'd say they're about done.

I don't know about a value for the eggs, since snakes aren't usually given info about training, etc.


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2011)

Lets just leave out egg value.

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2011)

All done?


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2011)

Shade said:


> Lets just leave out egg value.
> 
> Updated.




That's OK by me. They look done, unless someone can spot some error in their stats.


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2011)

_The terrible droning noise begins to abate, only to be replaced by something more dreadful.

A deep, unearthly moan filters through the buzzing of the mosquitoes and rips through the camp.   The swarm is swept up in the great gust that begins to curl around a hazy nexus.  A full-blown whirlwind coalesces out of the ghostly air.  Pine needles, birch branches, mosquitoes—even small rocks—are swept up into the frenzy of wind.

The harsh wind drives the moisture from your eyes.  As quickly as it started, the twister stops, leaving at its center a menacing, seven-foot-tall creature.  The figure standing before you is a gaunt, grotesque mockery of the humanoid form.  Except for the creature’s luminous blue eyes, its body is a twisted collection of mosquitoes, rocks, snow, and pine needles—essentially everything that was caught up in the tornado.  It stares at you for only a second with its cold azure eyes before springing forward, slashing with its obsidian claws._

*Windigo*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any remote
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0 to 5
MOVEMENT: 12, Fly 24 (A)
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6+2/1d6+2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Searing wind gust
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: L (7’ tall)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE: 5,000

A windigo is a vampiric wind spirit that haunts isolated wilderness areas.  Cruel hunters by nature, windigos revel in stalking and terrorizing their prey.  The hunt is often more important to these elusive spirits than the kill itself.

Windigo spirits originate from the Elemental Plane of Air.  Their true form is a noncorporeal cloud of haze of faintly humanoid shape with sky blue eyes that glow faintly from some internal light.  Before entering combat, windigos surround their noncorporeal bodies with debris from the environment, giving them solid forms (see below).  The seledom-heard voice of a windigo sounds like a demonic chorus of fleeting whispers that originates from all directions at once.  Other than their voices, windigos make no sound at all, even while walking over a forest floor covered with dry leaves.

Combat:  A windigo engages in direct combat only after thoroughly terrorizing its prey.  Due to its transparent body, a windigo is 95% invisible whle standing still and 50% invisible while moving.  At distances greater than fifty feet a windigo is completely invisible.  It uses this power as well as its ghostly silence to stalk prey.

Before entering combat, the windigo must spend a few seconds creating a physical body for itself.  (The windigo suffers a +2 initiative penalty on the first round of combat.)  It does so by weaving a whirlwind around its noncorporeal form, lifting leaves, dirt, sand, rocks, or other small objects from the surrounding environment.  After a few seconds, the twirling debris coalesces into the shape of a horribly twisted and willowy humanoid.  While in this form, it attacks with claws of jagged rocks or splintered wood.  However, their solid state does cause windigos to lose their silent movement.

Because a windigo creates its physical body out of pieces of its environment, it has a variable Armor Class, ranging from 0 to 5, depending upon its surroundings.  A windigo comprised of abrasive desert sand, for example, will have AC 5.  Were the same wind spirit to create its body out of jagged mountain granite, it would have AC 0.  The DM should use common sense when determining a windigo’s AC, taking into consideration the materials available in the environment.  Otherwise, a 1d6 can be rolled, subtracting one to determine the windigo’s AC.

Once every 3 rounds, a windigo can release a fiery gale with an area of effect equivalent ot a fireball spell (20’ diameter).  This searing windblast deals 5d6 points of damage (save vs. breath weapon for half damage).  This blast is so powerful that, unless a saving throw vs. paralyzation is also made, man-sized or smaller victims are lifted repeatedly into the air, forfeiting all actions for the rest of the round.

Windigos can cast the following spells at will as a 10th-level wizard: whispering wind, gust of wind, fly (MV 24, MC: A), summon swarm (1/day; mosquitoes only).  The windigo has the grotesque ability to seamlessly wear the skins of victims over its noncorporeal body.  While wearing a humanoid’s skin, the windigo is able to assume the voice of its “host”.  For this reason, a windigo can only assume the form of a humanoid creature that it has personally killed.  This magical ability is similar in effect to a polymorph other spell and is utterly convincing.  Once the spell’s duration has expired, the skin begins to rip and fray, destroying the illusion.

Habitat/Society:  Windigos dwell in lonely wilderness areas.  Although they are territorial, it is not uncommon for these elusive wind spirits to disappear from their usual hunting ground, only to reappear hundreds of miles away several years later.  Windigos, solitary by nature, are in a constant state of retreat from the ever-advancing tide of civilization.  Whenever a windigo is driven deeper into the wilderness, it leaves behind its own unique brand of curse; a persistent plague of mosquitoes that torments the invading settlers.  According to legend, windigos fathered the mosquito species as an act of revenge against humanoid races.

Roughly once every three centuries, a few dozen windigo congregate at the site of an epic winter storm.  This event, seemingly religious in nature, entails the wind spirits dancing throughout the storm while chanting in their hallow, gusty voices.  Aside from this dark ritual, windigos are never found in groups.

Windigos are claustrophobic.  They grow agitated if they are stuck under a roof for only a few moments, and rarely do they venture into thick forests, as trees obstruct their vision to the heavens.  If they move more than 20 yards from open sky, they are rendered powerless and, on the following round, are instantly destroyed.  For this reason, they are never found below ground.

Ecology:  Windigos are adept hunters that stalk any intelligent being who dares to venture into their wilderness.  These wind spirits are vampiric, needing fresh blood to keep their vaporous bodies from disintegrating.

Windigos are patient, often stalking their prey for days before attacking.  Windigos, renowned for striking fear into their victims’ hearts, especially enjoy tailing lone travelers or small groups.  A common tactic of these evil wind spirits is to flit in and out of the trees behind a group of travelers, only to disappear when someone looks back.  After heightening its victims’ paranoia, the windigo begins to call softly to the travelers, so softly that its voice can barely be distinguished from a slight breeze.  Only after the group is driven into a panic-induced frenzy fo cursing or running does a windigo attack.  A survivor of such an attack is typically left with intense agoraphobia, breaking out into a cold sweat when the wind is heard rustling through the treetops.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #77 (1999).


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2011)

For starters, this seems quite a bit different from the Fiend Folio wendigo, so I think this is worthy of its own conversion.

I'd like to keep it an air elemental, if possible.  That helps differentiate from the Fiend Folio fey version further.

It sounds like its incorporeal, and many of its special abilities are covered by the incorporeal subtype.  We'll need abilities for "environmental body" and "skinwearing" for its other forms.

The searing windblast sounds like a fun combo of an air elemental's vortex and an incendiary cloud. 

Did we already do a mosquito swarm?  If not, Dungeon #77 provides sample stats I can post when we get to it.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2011)

At this time of day, I just can't read such a long stat block!   But I agree from a look-over that it's different from other wendigos we've seen.  Generally agreed with your assessment, but I just can't remember about the mosquito swarm.  Giant mosquitos we did, but I can't remember swarms.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> For starters, this seems quite a bit different from the Fiend Folio wendigo, so I think this is worthy of its own conversion.
> 
> I'd like to keep it an air elemental, if possible.  That helps differentiate from the Fiend Folio fey version further.




It's certainly different enough to deserve a separate conversion, but looks more like an Outsider (Air, Incorporeal, Native) to me than an Elemental (Air).



Shade said:


> It sounds like its incorporeal, and many of its special abilities are covered by the incorporeal subtype.  We'll need abilities for "environmental body" and "skinwearing" for its other forms.
> 
> The searing windblast sounds like a fun combo of an air elemental's vortex and an incendiary cloud.
> 
> Did we already do a mosquito swarm?  If not, Dungeon #77 provides sample stats I can post when we get to it.




How soon we forget!

When we converted the *Demonic Sawfly* last March I proposed a blood-sucking Gnat Swarm whos stats should serve as a good foundation. A simple nameswap and the Addazahr's Blood Drain instead of Wounding should be enough:

*Gnat Swarm
*Fine Vermin (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 3d8-3 (10 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 22 (+8 size, +4 Dex), touch 22, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/—
Attack: Swarm (1d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (1d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Distraction, wounding, blood drain
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immune to weapon damage, swarm traits, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 19, Con 8, Int –, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: —
Challenge Rating: 2
Alignment: Always neutral

*Distraction (Ex):* Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 11 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Wounding (Ex):* Any living creature damaged by a gnat swarm continues to bleed, losing 1 hit point per round thereafter. Multiple wounds do not result in cumulative bleeding loss. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 10 Heal check or the application of a cure spell or some other healing magic.

*Blood Drain (Ex):* Addaazahr drain blood, the swarm deals 1 points of Con damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move. Once a swarm has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it is sated and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the addazahr swarm's appetites have been sated, the swarm seeks a new target.

*Skills:* A gnat swarm has a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.


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## freyar (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm inclined to agree with Cleon about the type (Outsider rather than Elemental).

To me, the searing windblast (or fiery gale) seems like a fireball plus knockdown (overrun).  Incendiary cloud is probably too powerful for 7HD critters.

And that modified gnat swarm looks like a good fit for the mosquitos.


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm inclined to agree with Cleon about the type (Outsider rather than Elemental).




On second thought, I do as well.  



freyar said:


> To me, the searing windblast (or fiery gale) seems like a fireball plus knockdown (overrun).  Incendiary cloud is probably too powerful for 7HD critters.




Sure.  We'll just work it up as a unique ability anyway.



freyar said:


> And that modified gnat swarm looks like a good fit for the mosquitos.




Agreed!


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> To me, the searing windblast (or fiery gale) seems like a fireball plus knockdown (overrun).  Incendiary cloud is probably too powerful for 7HD critters.




Yes, I was thinking along the same lines. It doesn't look much like _incendiary cloud_, some fire + bludgeoning special attack with a knockback effect seems the way to go.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2011)

Let's figure out ability scores so we can get a homebrews going.

As an incorporeal creature, it has no Str score.  However, damage is +2, which suggests Str 14-15 while in its "environmental body".

AC is 0, and its manueverabilty is perfect, so I could see high Dex.

Int is 11-12.  Wis and Cha are probably higher due to its cunning and persistence.

So perhaps...

Str -, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 17?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's figure out ability scores so we can get a homebrews going.
> 
> As an incorporeal creature, it has no Str score.  However, damage is +2, which suggests Str 14-15 while in its "environmental body".




Yes, Strength 14-15 when manifested/incorporated seems right.



Shade said:


> AC is 0, and its manueverabilty is perfect, so I could see high Dex.




No, Armour Class was 0 to 5, depending on how tough the stuff it uses to build its "environmental body". It presumably won't have a Cha-based deflection bonus when incorporated, so the minimum AC of 5 could be all due to Dexterity, for Dex 20-21.



Shade said:


> Int is 11-12.  Wis and Cha are probably higher due to its cunning and persistence.
> 
> So perhaps...
> 
> Str -, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 17?




I'd be tempted to swap the Wisdom and Charisma or give them both the same bonus.

Str - [or 15], Dex 21, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 16?


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## Shade (Aug 10, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

Should we go with "always chaotic evil"?  If so, we'll need the Chaotic and Evil subtypes, as well as the overcoming DR statement that goes along with it.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2011)

Yes to the C and E subtypes.

Ok, ready for the environmental body?  Gains variable NA, 2 claw attacks, Str score.  Loses incorporeal subtype.  Anything else?


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes to the C and E subtypes.
> 
> Ok, ready for the environmental body?  Gains variable NA, 2 claw attacks, Str score.  Loses incorporeal subtype.  Anything else?




That sounds about right.  How do we want to handle the variable NA?  A simple die roll, some chart based on terrain type, DM's choice, or some combination of the three?


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Should we go with "always chaotic evil"?  If so, we'll need the Chaotic and Evil subtypes, as well as the overcoming DR statement that goes along with it.




They don't come from a Chaotic Evil plane, so don't need the subtypes to go with "Always chaotic evil". I wouldn't give it to them, since the closest similar creatures in the SRD (Undead such as the Winterwight) don't have the Chaotic or Evil subtypes.

Besides, it's already got quite a few subtypes! Air, Incorporeal, Native are enough for me.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> That sounds about right.  How do we want to handle the variable NA?  A simple die roll, some chart based on terrain type, DM's choice, or some combination of the three?




I was thinking we'd have a standard "gritty body" made out of sand, gravel and earth with a set NA and add a note that the NA lowers if it can only find soft materials like snow or fallen leaves, but it increases with harder materials (shards of granite, lumps of iron). I'm also wondering whether it should get a damage shift up with sharper materials (obsidian, broken glass or steel arrowheads - the latter would also give it a good NA).

A little table wouldn't hurt, but we could just as easily have it based on the material's hardness. Hardness/2 (maximum +5) would be a good fit.


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2011)

A default with a couple of shifts is a good idea, but I don't know that hardness will work.  Sand, etc, don't have hardness listed.


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## Shade (Aug 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> They don't come from a Chaotic Evil plane, so don't need the subtypes to go with "Always chaotic evil". I wouldn't give it to them, since the closest similar creatures in the SRD (Undead such as the Winterwight) don't have the Chaotic or Evil subtypes.




Ahh, but those aren't Outsiders, which usually have subtypes.



Cleon said:


> Besides, it's already got quite a few subtypes! Air, Incorporeal, Native are enough for me.




You can never have too many subtypes!  



Cleon said:


> I was thinking we'd have a standard "gritty body" made out of sand, gravel and earth with a set NA and add a note that the NA lowers if it can only find soft materials like snow or fallen leaves, but it increases with harder materials (shards of granite, lumps of iron). I'm also wondering whether it should get a damage shift up with sharper materials (obsidian, broken glass or steel arrowheads - the latter would also give it a good NA).
> 
> A little table wouldn't hurt, but we could just as easily have it based on the material's hardness. Hardness/2 (maximum +5) would be a good fit.






freyar said:


> A default with a couple of shifts is a good idea, but I don't know that hardness will work.  Sand, etc, don't have hardness listed.




What he said.  

I do, however, think a simple table with suggested NA modifiers will work (just not base it on hardness).


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> A default with a couple of shifts is a good idea, but I don't know that hardness will work.  Sand, etc, don't have hardness listed.




It's probably be about hardness 6, a table form might look something like this:

+0 NA Snow/Leaves
+1 NA Glass
+2 NA Wood
+3 NA Sand/Earth/Soil
+4 NA Stone
+5 NA Metal


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2011)

Why would glass give you less NA than sand?  Sand is chemically just tiny little bits of glass!


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2011)

Aside from freyar's question, the table looks good.


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2011)

> Why would glass give you less NA than sand?  Sand is chemically just tiny little bits of glass!




It came out like that because glass is hardness 1 according to the SRD.

It didn't seem right making a sand-body a lot more fragile than a body formed from earth.


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2011)

I'd rather leave off glass just to avoid the inconsistency.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

There's something weird about this thread, I can't get my internet browser to display page 31.

Anyhow, I don't mind dropping Glass, but I think we'd better put something else in the +1 NA slot to replace it. Maybe promote the "leaves"?

Something like:

+0 NA Snow/Dust
+1 NA Leaves/Grass
+2 NA Wood
+3 NA Sand/Earth/Soil
+4 NA Stone
+5 NA Metal


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2011)

I like it!


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## Cleon (Aug 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> I like it!




I still can't get this thread to display page 31 in Linear Display mode.

I've got to switch to Threaded Display to see posts 601+, which is pretty annoying. Any idea why it's doing it?

Getting back to the conversion, shall we plug that NA table into a SQ then?


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I still can't get this thread to display page 31 in Linear Display mode.
> 
> I've got to switch to Threaded Display to see posts 601+, which is pretty annoying. Any idea why it's doing it?




No clue.  I'd post something in Meta.



Cleon said:


> Getting back to the conversion, shall we plug that NA table into a SQ then?




Sure!


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## Cleon (Aug 19, 2011)

Is it only happening to me, or is it screwing other people's pagination too?

We could always start a new thread once this creature is done, if necessary.

Might as well start roughing out a SQ then,. How's this for a start:

*Environmental Body (Ex):* A windigo can form a physical body for itself out of leaves, dirt, rocks or any other small loose objects lying in its vicinity. While in this form, the windigo loses its incorporeal subtype but it gains two 1d6 damage claw attacks, a natural armor bonus, and a Strength score equal to its Charisma. Forming an environmental body requires a move action; the windigo can revert to its natural incorporeal form as a swift action. The natural armour bonus of the body depends on the hardness of its materials, according to the following table:

+0 NA Snow/Dust
+1 NA Leaves/Grass
+2 NA Wood
+3 NA Sand/Earth/Soil
+4 NA Stone
+5 NA Metal 	

Typically, a windigo will form an environmental body out of sand or soil, giving it the following statistics (those not listed are the same as the windigo's incorporeal form).


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2011)

I like that!

Speaking of stats, since they "corporate," shouldn't these be one of those incorporeal critters with Str scores?  Probably a reasonable one, too.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> I like that!
> 
> Speaking of stats, since they "corporate," shouldn't these be one of those incorporeal critters with Str scores?  Probably a reasonable one, too.




Upthread, we mentioned a Str score of 15 while using Environmental Body.  We'll need to add that in.


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## Cleon (Aug 23, 2011)

Yes, I remember agreeing a Str 14-15 would match the damage bonus.

I'd be OK with giving the creature a regular Str score despite being incorporeal, although I like (nah, prefer!) the idea of it gaining a Str score equal to its Cha when embodied, as per my Environmental Body outline.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I remember agreeing a Str 14-15 would match the damage bonus.
> 
> I'd be OK with giving the creature a regular Str score despite being incorporeal, although I like (nah, prefer!) the idea of it gaining a Str score equal to its Cha when embodied, as per my Environmental Body outline.




I've no opposition to this.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2011)

Just following the precedent of the ghost, I'd just give it a Str score, as little sense as that makes.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2011)

I'll go along with whichever option you decide on  (Str score or Str=Cha).


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## freyar (Aug 30, 2011)

My vote's just to give it Str 15 flat out.


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## Cleon (Aug 31, 2011)

Which does Shade prefer?


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Which does Shade prefer?




No strong preference, but a slight leaning toward flat Str 15.


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## Cleon (Sep 2, 2011)

Well I suppose we're going for just Str 15 then.


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2011)

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2011)

Which ability do you want to tackle next?  I feel like we already sketched out the windblast, but it's not in homebrews.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Which ability do you want to tackle next?  I feel like we already sketched out the windblast, but it's not in homebrews.




That doesn't ring any bells, but we've done creatures with similar powers.


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## freyar (Sep 6, 2011)

We had this:



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> To me, the searing windblast (or fiery gale) seems like a fireball plus knockdown (overrun).




and you suggested some bludgeoning damage added to the mix.


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2011)

That's more of a very light penciling, rather than "sketched out".


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## Cleon (Sep 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> That's more of a very light penciling, rather than "sketched out".




Well, maybe a charcoal rendering. 

The windblast doesn't knock victims over, it blows them up. (Lifts them repeatedly into the air and prevents them acting for the round). I'm thinking we should have two saving throws - an initial Ref save for half damage, and if that fails, another roll (Fort save? or maybe Strength check?) to prevent "lift off".


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## freyar (Sep 8, 2011)

Maybe it's a study of the subject, in preparation for the actual painting. 

As for lifting people up, I'm not sure how that really stops them from doing anything at all.  Surely you should be able to cast a stilled, silent spell, at least if you make a Concentration check; the conditions don't sound that bad.  So how do we draw the line?  Besides, if it lifts them up into the air, and, say, dazes them, shouldn't they fall over when they land?


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Maybe it's a study of the subject, in preparation for the actual painting.
> 
> As for lifting people up, I'm not sure how that really stops them from doing anything at all.  Surely you should be able to cast a stilled, silent spell, at least if you make a Concentration check; the conditions don't sound that bad.  So how do we draw the line?  Besides, if it lifts them up into the air, and, say, dazes them, shouldn't they fall over when they land?




Good point.  I think I'd rather have it throw them to an adjacent space, and maybe require a Balance check/Reflex save to avoid falling prone.


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Good point.  I think I'd rather have it throw them to an adjacent space, and maybe require a Balance check/Reflex save to avoid falling prone.




Well I doubt they're incapacitated just because they're lifted off the ground. Presumably they get such a battering from the winds it stuns them, and/or they're spun around so fast they are dazed with dizziness.

The Wind effects in the SRD Weather & Environment section include a lot of effects that knock people prone, and the "Blown Away" effect uses a Fort save.

I have no objection in principle to there being a Balance/Reflex save to avoid being knocked prone, but wouldn't that make it three checks - one for half damage, one for the round of stun/daze and one to remain standing? That seems too many.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2011)

Why not combine the stun/daze and prone save into a single Fort save?


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## Cleon (Sep 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Why not combine the stun/daze and prone save into a single Fort save?




No objection to that, one follows the other pretty naturally.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> No objection to that, one follows the other pretty naturally.




Agreed!


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2011)

Ok, we're agreed on damage, prone, and stunning?


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## Shade (Sep 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, we're agreed on damage, prone, and stunning?




I agree.


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## freyar (Sep 13, 2011)

I guess the last question is if we're making it a line or cone or something more like a fireball.  I guess the original is targeted like a fireball, but I'm not clear if that matches the flavor best.


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## Cleon (Sep 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, we're agreed on damage, prone, and stunning?




Seems that way.


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## Cleon (Sep 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> I guess the last question is if we're making it a line or cone or something more like a fireball.  I guess the original is targeted like a fireball, but I'm not clear if that matches the flavor best.




I'd make it a blast, probably 20 ft. radius.


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## Shade (Sep 13, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd make it a blast, probably 20 ft. radius.




Burst?   If so, I agree.


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## Cleon (Sep 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Burst?   If so, I agree.




I prefer having a blast to bursting. 

20 radius it is, then.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2011)

Thus...

Searing Windblast (Su):  Once every 1d4 rounds, a windigo may unleash a 20-foot-radius burst of searing wind.   The windblast deals 5d6 points of fire damage to all creatures in the area and knocks them prone.  A successful DC X Reflex save halves the damage, and avoids being knocked prone.  Additionally, creatures within the area must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round.   The save DCs are Charisma-based(?).


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Thus...
> 
> Searing Windblast (Su):  Once every 1d4 rounds, a windigo may unleash a 20-foot-radius burst of searing wind.   The windblast deals 5d6 points of fire damage to all creatures in the area and knocks them prone.  A successful DC X Reflex save halves the damage, and avoids being knocked prone.  Additionally, creatures within the area must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round.   The save DCs are Charisma-based(?).




I was thinking more like this:

*Searing Windblast (Su):* Once every 1d4 rounds, a windigo can unleash a 20-foot radius burst of searing wind. The blast deals 5d6 damage to everything in the area (equal parts fire and bludgeoning), a successful DC X Reflex save halves the damage. In addition, targets of Medium size or smaller must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or be knocked prone and stunned for 1 round.    The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2011)

Why a Fort save to keep from falling?!?  Isn't avoiding falling a bit synonomous with "reflex"?  

Also, I can see where you got the idea for the Medium size or smaller, but I'm not convinced we need that limitation.  What do you think, freyar?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2011)

I suppose it would be weird if these could trip up a great wyrm.   But I like the knocked prone going with the Ref save (yes, I know it was my idea to combine it with the Fort save for stunned).  What about:

Searing Windblast (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, a windigo may unleash a 20-foot-radius burst of searing wind. The windblast deals 5d6 points of fire damage to all creatures in the area and knocks Medium-sized or smaller creatures prone. A successful DC X Reflex save halves the damage, and avoids being knocked prone. Additionally, creatures within the area must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Why a Fort save to keep from falling?!?  Isn't avoiding falling a bit synonomous with "reflex"?




They fall over (a) because they're stunned and (b) the wind force overpowers them and _*blows them over*_. That's why the SRD section on *Winds* uses a Fort Save for the "Blown Away" effect of extremely powerful winds.


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2011)

Cleon said:


> They fall over (a) because they're stunned and (b) the wind force overpowers them and _*blows them over*_. That's why the SRD section on *Winds* uses a Fort Save for the "Blown Away" effect of extremely powerful winds.




I can understand falling over if you're stunned.

Oh yeah, the wind check bit.  Why being exceptionally healthy helps you fight back winds is beyond me.  A Strength check would make much more sense, but since no Str-based saving throws exist, I guess we're stuck with Fort save vs. gale force winds.


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> I can understand falling over if you're stunned.
> 
> Oh yeah, the wind check bit.  Why being exceptionally healthy helps you fight back winds is beyond me.  A Strength check would make much more sense, but since no Str-based saving throws exist, I guess we're stuck with Fort save vs. gale force winds.




Well either it's a subtle reference to the classical Chinese term for life-force, Chi, which literally means "breath" or...

...Fort is the closest saving throw they could come up with.


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well either it's a subtle reference to the classical Chinese term for life-force, Chi, which literally means "breath" or...
> 
> ...Fort is the closest saving throw they could come up with.




Surely it's the former.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2011)

Are we all satisfied?  Ready to move to the skinwearing?


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Are we all satisfied?  Ready to move to the skinwearing?




I'm satisfied.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Are we all satisfied?  Ready to move to the skinwearing?




Yup.

I'm sure I've seen a similar 3rd edition special ability somewhere.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2011)

> The windigo has the grotesque ability to seamlessly wear the skins of victims over its noncorporeal body. While wearing a humanoid’s skin, the windigo is able to assume the voice of its “host”. For this reason, a windigo can only assume the form of a humanoid creature that it has personally killed. This magical ability is similar in effect to a polymorph other spell and is utterly convincing. Once the spell’s duration has expired, the skin begins to rip and fray, destroying the illusion.




Yes, something like that seems familiar.  Tsochars from Lords of Madness can infiltrate a host's body, but that's more like dominate. Yakfolk, too.  Maybe hellwasps?



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Inhabit (Ex): A hellwasp swarm can enter the body of a helpless or dead creature by crawling into its mouth and other orifices. Inhabiting requires 1 minute, and the victim must be Small, Medium, or Large (although four swarms working together can inhabit a Huge creature). The swarm can abandon the body at any time, although doing this takes 1 full round. Any attack against the host deals half damage to the hellwasp swarm as well, although the swarm’s resistances and immunities may negate some or all of this damage.
> 
> If a hellwasp swarm inhabits a dead body, it can restore animation to the creature and control its movements, effectively transforming it into a zombie of the appropriate size for as long as the swarm remains inside. If a hellwasp swarm inhabits a living victim, it can neutralize the effects of its own poison and control the victim’s movement and actions as if using dominate monster on the victim. The hellwasps quickly consume a living victim, dealing 2d4 points of Constitution damage per hour they inhabit a body. A body reduced to Constitution 0 is dead.
> 
> ...


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, something like that seems familiar.  Tsochars from Lords of Madness can infiltrate a host's body, but that's more like dominate. Yakfolk, too.  Maybe hellwasps?




Well, the original description says it works like _polymorph other_, including the duration, so why not use the 3E equivalent spell as a basis?

Something like:

Skinstealing (Su): If a windigo personally kills a humanoid opponent, it can wear the corpse's skin and assume the form of its victim. Skinstealing is a [full round?] action, and the windigo must steal the skin within [1 hour] of a victim's death. The windigo gains the physical abilities of its new form as per the spell _polymorph_ [or as per the Change Self ability?]. A windigo can retain a stolen form for [X minutes], after which it tears through its victim's skin and reverts to its true form. [It also reverts to its true form if its stolen skin is ripped by the windigo taking more than Y points of damage from slashing or piercing weapons?]


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2011)

Let's not use polymorph, since WotC went on a polymorph-purge in the errata since the spell is so broken.

Basing it on change shape might work.


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## Cleon (Sep 28, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's not use polymorph, since WotC went on a polymorph-purge in the errata since the spell is so broken.
> 
> Basing it on change shape might work.




I'm not sure Change Shape is any better, to be honest, but I'm OK either way.

Alternatively, if we're aiming for a "softer option" we could use _alter self_ as a model instead.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2011)

Change self might work.


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## Cleon (Oct 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Change self might work.




What about _alter self_ though?

Or make it a "skin deep" disguise which does not alter the Windigo's stats, using _disguise self_ as a model? The original does describe the appearance as an "illusion".


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## freyar (Oct 10, 2011)

I still like basing it on the hell wasps.  If not, change shape or disguise self seem like the best fits.  I suppose alternate form could work too.


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> I still like basing it on the hell wasps.  If not, change shape or disguise self seem like the best fits.  I suppose alternate form could work too.




Would you care to present a draft special ability based on that?


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Would you care to present a draft special ability based on that?




<Uses change self to appear as freyar>  Sure!


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> <Uses change self to appear as freyar>  Sure!




You didn't expect to fool me with such a low level spell, did you?

Feel free to present a draft SQ, Oh Shady One.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2011)

Yes, go ahead, Shade. 

Or, here's a start:

Skinstealing (Ex): A windigo swarm can wear the skin of a Small, Medium, or Large dead creature. Any attack against the host deals half damage to the windigo as well.  When a windigo steals the skin of a dead creature, it can restore animation to the creature and control its movements, effectively transforming it into a zombie (?) of the appropriate size for as long as the windigo wears its skin.

Need something about kicking it out, etc.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, go ahead, Shade.
> 
> Or, here's a start:
> 
> ...




Surely the point of the procedure is to disguise itself as its victim. If it effectively transforming its victim into a zombie, then its  victim looks like an undead and won't be fooling many people!


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes, I was worried about that myself.  

Skinstealing (Ex): A windigo can wear the skin of a Small, Medium, or Large dead creature. Any attack against the host deals half damage to the windigo as well. When a windigo steals the skin of a dead creature, it can restore animation to the creature and control its movements, acting as if the alternate form ability.  However, after 1 hour?, the body begins to disintegrate, so the windigo cannot impersonate that creature again.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, I was worried about that myself.
> 
> Skinstealing (Ex): A windigo can wear the skin of a Small, Medium, or Large dead creature. Any attack against the host deals half damage to the windigo as well. When a windigo steals the skin of a dead creature, it can restore animation to the creature and control its movements, acting as if the alternate form ability.  However, after 1 hour?, the body begins to disintegrate, so the windigo cannot impersonate that creature again.




There's nothing in the original about the windigo taking reduced damage while inside a skin, it's basically just like polymorph.

Oh, and it can only steal the skin of humanoids, and it must personally kill the victim.

Something like this...

*Skinstealing (Ex):* A windigo can wear the skin of a humanoid within one size category of its own size, taking on that humanoid's form and physical abilities as per the Alternate Form special ability. The windigo must personally kill a victim in order to steal its skin. A windigo can wear a stolen skin for up to 1 hour, whereupon the skin starts to rip and fray, returning the windigo to its true form. A windigo cannot take off a stolen skin without tearing and ruining it.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Something like this...
> 
> *Skinstealing (Ex):* A windigo can wear the skin of a humanoid within one size category of its own size, taking on that humanoid's form and physical abilities as per the Alternate Form special ability. The windigo must personally kill a victim in order to steal its skin. A windigo can wear a stolen skin for up to 1 hour, whereupon the skin starts to rip and fray, returning the windigo to its true form. A windigo cannot take off a stolen skin without tearing and ruining it.




This looks pretty good!


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> This looks pretty good!




I suppose we'd better add a bit about the windigo being able to disguise itself in the stolen skin, with a bonus to Disguise checks.

Revising...

*Skinstealing (Ex):* A windigo can wear the skin of a  humanoid within one size category of its own size, taking on that  humanoid's form and physical abilities as per the Alternate Form special  ability. The windigo must personally kill a victim in order to steal  its skin. While wearing a stolen skin, the windigo gains the voice and appearance of its victim and can disguise itself as the victim (with a +10 bonus on its Disguise checks). A windigo can wear a stolen skin for up to 1 hour, whereupon  the skin starts to rip and fray, returning the windigo to its true form.  A windigo cannot take off a stolen skin without tearing and ruining it.

I think that covers everything, shall we shift it into the Homebrew?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2011)

Alternate Form already includes the Disguise bonus.  From the SRD: "The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise."


----------



## Cleon (Oct 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Alternate Form already includes the Disguise bonus.  From the SRD: "The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise."




I was under the impression Alternate Form allowed a creature to disguise itself as an average creature of that type, not imitate a specific individual. Isn't it similar to an _alter self_ spell in that regards, were "you are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race".

e.g. plain vanilla Alternate Form would permit a windigo to disguise itself as an "average human" rather than "Joe the Hunter who mysteriously vanished a few hours ago".

Let's see, Alternate Form says the creature assumes "one or more specific alternate forms"and "the creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form", but makes no mention as to whether it can duplicate specific individuals.

Besides, we said the Skinstealing allows the windigo to take on the form and physical abilities of the victim, without saying it gives any of the other changes from Alternate Form (size, Disguise, natural armour, natural weapons, extraordinary special attacks).

Hmm, we could make that explicit...
*Skinstealing (Ex) #1:* If a windigo personally kills a  humanoid  within one size category of its own size, it can steal that humanoid's skin [as a full-round action?]. A windigo wearing a stolen skin takes on its victim's appearance, voice, size, and physical ability scores in a similar manner to the Alternate Form special  ability. The windigo is effectively disguised as the individual whose skin it has stolen (with a +10 bonus on its Disguise checks). It gains none of the other benefits of Alternate Form.  A windigo can wear a stolen skin for up to 1  hour, whereupon  the skin starts to rip and fray, returning the windigo  to its true form.  A windigo cannot take off a stolen skin without  tearing and ruining it.​ However, I prefer keeping the natural armour, weapons, et cetera of Alternative Form, since that's closer to _polymorph_ which the original description quoted in describing this ability...
*Skinstealing (Ex) #2:* If a windigo personally kills a  humanoid  within one size category of its own size, it can steal that humanoid's  skin [as a full-round action?]. A windigo wearing a stolen skin takes on  its victim's appearance, voice, and physical abilities as per the Alternate Form special  ability. The windigo is  effectively disguised as the individual whose skin it has stolen (with a  +10 bonus on its Disguise checks).  A windigo can wear a stolen skin for up to 1  hour, whereupon  the skin starts to rip and fray, returning the windigo  to its true form.  A windigo cannot take off a stolen skin without  tearing and ruining it.​ Yes, I definitely prefer version #2.


----------



## freyar (Oct 21, 2011)

Hmm, I was going to suggest Change Shape if we didn't want to alter the physical abilities, but I notice that Change Shape doesn't say anything about natural armor.  Anyone know how natural armor would work for Change Shape?

Anyway, alternative #2 seems a bit better to me than #1.


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## Cleon (Oct 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I was going to suggest Change Shape if we didn't want to alter the physical abilities, but I notice that Change Shape doesn't say anything about natural armor.  Anyone know how natural armor would work for Change Shape?




Since it doesn't say it changes, presumably it remains unchanged. 



freyar said:


> Anyway, alternative #2 seems a bit better to me than #1.




Anyhow, the original version says it works like AD&D's _polymorph other_, which include most of the creatures abilities, including AC, attacks, most special attacks, et cetera.

So, I'm OK keeping it Alternate Form.

So, is there anything you'd like to change or add to #2?


----------



## freyar (Oct 24, 2011)

It seems ok as is.


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## Cleon (Oct 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> It seems ok as is.




Fine, so would Shade like to stick that in the Homebrew?


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2011)

Updated.

Did we ever decide what to do with this?



> Windigos are claustrophobic.  They grow agitated if they are stuck under a roof for only a few moments, and rarely do they venture into thick forests, as trees obstruct their vision to the heavens.  If they move more than 20 yards from open sky, they are rendered powerless and, on the following round, are instantly destroyed.  For this reason, they are never found below ground.




Something like the wraith's daylight powerlessness?


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2011)

Yes.  Maybe combined with the vampire's weakness to running water?


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes.  Maybe combined with the vampire's weakness to running water?




The description is a better match to a Vampire's Vulnerabilities. Indeed, it's pretty much like their vulnerability to sunlight, except in reverse.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2011)

Cleon said:


> The description is a better match to a Vampire's Vulnerabilities. Indeed, it's pretty much like their vulnerability to sunlight, except in reverse.




Like so?

Extreme Claustrophobia (Ex):  Exposing a windigo to an enclosed space (such as the interior of a building, a dense forest canopy, or underground) disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape.


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> Like so?
> 
> Extreme Claustrophobia (Ex):  Exposing a windigo to an enclosed space (such as the interior of a building, a dense forest canopy, or underground) disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape.




Don't care for the "extreme", I'd go for something like Deadly/Lethal/Fatal to go with the way it kills the Windigo.

Also, a dense forest canopy is not really "enclosed" per se, I'd mention it's being unable to see the sky that does it.

Something like this...

*Fatal Claustrophobia (Ex):* Windigos are so extraordinarily claustrophobic they quickly die in any enclosed space. Entering an area cut off from the open sky (such as a building's interior, a cave, or even a dense forest canopy) disorients a windigo: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2011)

Nice revision.  Updated.

Skills: 9 at 10 ranks
Bluff, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Tumble?

Feats: 3
Track, Weapon Finesse (to aid its' claw attacks in environmental body)...


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2011)

Shade said:


> Nice revision.  Updated.
> 
> Skills: 9 at 10 ranks
> Bluff, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Tumble?




Those look alright to me, although I'm not so sure about the Bluff. Maybe Escape Artist? If they can't survive enclosures, they probably don't like to be bound either.



Shade said:


> Feats: 3
> Track, Weapon Finesse (to aid its' claw attacks in environmental body)...




Run? Improved Initiative? Combat Expertise? [The latter would require a tweak to give them the prereqs - say, Int 13, Wis 16]


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Those look alright to me, although I'm not so sure about the Bluff. Maybe Escape Artist? If they can't survive enclosures, they probably don't like to be bound either.




If it weren't incorporeal, and thus able to easily escape anyway, I'd agree.  



Cleon said:


> Run? Improved Initiative? Combat Expertise? [The latter would require a tweak to give them the prereqs - say, Int 13, Wis 16]




Of the three, I favor Improved Initiative.   freyar?


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## Cleon (Oct 31, 2011)

Shade said:


> If it weren't incorporeal, and thus able to easily escape anyway, I'd agree.




Oh yes, there is that.

Obviously, it's to let them Escape Artist from being grappled by other incorporeal creatures. 

Come to think of it, Tumble doesn't make that much sense for an Incorporeal creature either.

Apart from Intimidate, I can't think of any other skills they're likely to have much use of.

Anyhow, I'm not that much bothered one way or the other - Bluff, Intimidate, or Tumble - whichever two you two fancy.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2011)

I could see a use for Tumble with environmental body.   If it wants to escape, it's probably simplest to just "shed" its enviromental body and go incorporeal.


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## Cleon (Nov 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> I could see a use for Tumble with environmental body.   If it wants to escape, it's probably simplest to just "shed" its enviromental body and go incorporeal.




Well, shall we stick with Bluff and Tumble then?


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well, shall we stick with Bluff and Tumble then?




Sure!  Updated.


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## Cleon (Nov 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sure!  Updated.




It's missing its Transparent Body:



			
				Dungeon 77 said:
			
		

> Due to its transparent body, a windigo is 95%  invisible whle standing still and 50% invisible while moving. At  distances greater than fifty feet a windigo is completely invisible. It  uses this power as well as its ghostly silence to stalk prey.




Apart from that, consider what Xs we have left.

Their incorporeal touch attack need a damage - the original did 1d6+2.

The "Congregation" needs some numbers. Maybe 12-48 for a "few dozen"?

Challenge Rating looks about 5, maybe a strong 4.

Treasure should be "         —", since the original has "Nil".

Advancement 8-14 HD (Medium) I think, and I'd be tempted to add 15-21 HD (Large).


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2011)

So something like a Spot check to notice them, like for the misi?

Cleon's numbers make sense, I think.

We seem to have missed out on giving the rest of the stats for the environmental body.  I assume it would get claw attacks, etc.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> So something like a Spot check to notice them, like for the misi?
> 
> Cleon's numbers make sense, I think.
> 
> We seem to have missed out on giving the rest of the stats for the environmental body.  I assume it would get claw attacks, etc.




Yes, I'm presuming its two 1d6+2 claw attacks are the claws of its materialised form (and probably include a Strength of 14-15).

For that matter, didn't we talk about giving the incorporeal form a Strength score?


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> For that matter, didn't we talk about giving the incorporeal form a Strength score?




If we did, I was firmly against it!  It gains a Str score when it "materializes" with Environmental Body.


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## Cleon (Nov 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> If we did, I was firmly against it!  It gains a Str score when it "materializes" with Environmental Body.




So, Strength 14 but only when corporeal?


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So, Strength 14 but only when corporeal?




Huh?  It's already got Str 15 in its Environmental Body writeup.


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## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Huh?  It's already got Str 15 in its Environmental Body writeup.




That's OK too.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2011)

Updated.

So, for the transparent body, are we giving it a flat Spot DC, or one modified by distance like the original text?



			
				Dungeon 77 said:
			
		

> Due to its transparent body, a windigo is 95% invisible whle standing still and 50% invisible while moving. At distances greater than fifty feet a windigo is completely invisible. It uses this power as well as its ghostly silence to stalk prey.






			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).




I'm thinking we should modify this...

Natural Invisibility (Su): This ability is constant, allowing a stalker to remain invisible even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.

Something like this, perhaps?

Transparent Body (Su): Due to its transparent body, a windigo is nearly invisible.  At distances greater than 50 feet, a windigo is completely invisible.  Within 50 feet, treat the windigo as invisible, except Spot checks to notice its presence, target it, or pinpoint its location are made with a +2 circumstance bonus.  A windigo within 50 feet gains concealment (rather than total concealment).  This ability is constant, allowing a windigo to remain nearly invisible even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.


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## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> So, for the transparent body, are we giving it a flat Spot DC, or one modified by distance like the original text?




Well Spot checks are penalized by distance (-1 per 10 feet) according to the SRD, so I'd just use a flat DC.



Shade said:


> Transparent Body (Su): Due to its transparent body, a windigo is nearly invisible.  At distances greater than 50 feet, a windigo is completely invisible.  Within 50 feet, treat the windigo as invisible, except Spot checks to notice its presence, target it, or pinpoint its location are made with a +2 circumstance bonus.  A windigo within 50 feet gains concealment (rather than total concealment).  This ability is constant, allowing a windigo to remain nearly invisible even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.




At first, I was thinking of modifying the Gelatinous Cube's ability:

Transparent (Ex): Gelatinous cubes are hard to see, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a DC 15 Spot check to notice one. Creatures who fail to notice a cube and walk into it are automatically engulfed. 

However, rereading the description some form of "near-invisibility" seems more appropriate. I'm thinking we should cadge some of the text from the Invisibility Special Ability and the Invisibility note in the Hide skill:

Also, I think it should be an (Ex) ability rather than a (Su).

In other words, I prefer the following:

*Transparent Body (Ex):* Due to its transparent body, a windigo is very hard to see, even under ideal conditions. At distances greater than 50 feet, a windigo is invisible.  Within 50 feet, a creature can notice the presence of an active windigo with a DC 15 Spot check. A windigo that is moving gains a +15 bonus on Hide checks, one that is immobile gains a +30 bonus to Hide checks.  A windigo within 50 feet gains  concealment (rather than total concealment) against attackers that notice it.  This ability is constant, a windigo remains nearly invisible even when attacking. This transparency is an innate property of the windigo's flesh, so is not subject to the _invisibility purge _spell.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

That'll work.

Updated.

Should we add Common to their languages for more effective taunting?


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## Cleon (Nov 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> That'll work.
> 
> Updated.




I suppose we'd better modify the environmental body and skinstealing now...

*Environmental Body (Ex):* A windigo can form a physical body for itself  out of leaves, dirt, rocks or any other small loose objects lying in its  vicinity. While in this form, the windigo loses its incorporeal subtype and its transparent body special quality,  but it gains two claw attacks that deal 1d6 damage each, a natural  armor bonus, and a Strength score of 15. Forming an environmental body  requires a move action; the windigo can revert to its natural  incorporeal form as a swift action. The natural armor bonus of the body  depends on the hardness of its materials, according to the following  table:
*
Skinstealing (Ex):* If a windigo personally kills a humanoid within one  size category of its own size, it can steal that humanoid's skin as a  full-round action. A windigo wearing a stolen skin takes on its victim's  appearance, voice, and physical abilities as per the alternate form  special ability. It loses its incorporeal subtype and transparent body special quality. The windigo is effectively disguised as the individual  whose skin it has stolen (with a +10 bonus on its Disguise checks). A  windigo can wear a stolen skin for up to 1 hour, whereupon the skin  starts to rip and fray, returning the windigo to its true form. A  windigo cannot take off a stolen skin without tearing and ruining it.

Might as well mention it in Transparent Body while we're at it...
*
Transparent Body (Ex):* Due to its transparent body, a windigo is very  hard to see, even under ideal conditions. At distances greater than 50  feet, a windigo is invisible. Within 50 feet, a creature can notice the  presence of an active windigo with a DC 15 Spot check. A windigo that is  moving gains a +15 bonus on Hide checks, one that is immobile gains a  +30 bonus to Hide checks. A windigo within 50 feet gains concealment  (rather than total concealment) against attackers that notice it. This  ability is constant, allowing a windigo to remain nearly invisible even  when attacking. This transparency is an innate property of the windigo's  flesh, so is not subject to the invisibility purge spell. A windigo loses its transparent body when it uses its skinstealing and environmental body special abilities.



Shade said:


> Should we add Common to their languages for more effective taunting?




Yes, adding Common makes sense.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

Updated.  Anything left?


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## Mortis (Nov 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Anything left?



Well it's not much but Transparent Body is between parts of the Mosquito Swarm entry, move it to  the line after the Mosquito Swarm's skills and it will be fine.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Well it's not much but Transparent Body is between parts of the Mosquito Swarm entry, move it to  the line after the Mosquito Swarm's skills and it will be fine.




Good catch!   Fixed.


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Good catch!   Fixed.




We seem to be missing the "typical environmental body" statistics that are mentioned in the ability's description.

i.e. adding the following:

*Environmental Body (Ex):*  A windigo can form a physical body for itself out of leaves, dirt, rocks or any other small loose objects lying in its vicinity. While in this form, the windigo loses its incorporeal subtype and its transparent body special quality, but it gains two claw attacks that deal 1d6 damage each, a natural armor bonus, and a Strength score of 15. Forming an environmental body requires a move action; the windigo can revert to its natural incorporeal form as a swift action. The natural armor bonus of the body depends on the hardness of its materials, according to the following table:

+0 NA Snow/Dust
+1 NA Leaves/Grass
+2 NA Wood
+3 NA Sand/Earth/Soil
+4 NA Stone
+5 NA Metal 

Typically, a windigo will form an environmental body out of sand or soil, giving it the following statistics (those not listed are the same as the windigo's incorporeal form). 

Medium Outsider (Air, Chaotic, Evil, Native)
*Armor Class:* 18 (+5 Dex, +3 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +7/+9
*Attack:* Claw +9 melee (1d6+2)
*Full Attack:* Two claws +9 melee (1d6+2)
*Abilities:* Str 15, Dex 21, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 16
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., environmental body, fatal claustrophobia, incorporeal traits, skinstealing, summon mosquito swarm


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




I believe we're done with them.

When are we doing the Slithering Hoard and other missing Oozes?


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I believe we're done with them.
> 
> When are we doing the Slithering Hoard and other missing Oozes?




Just as soon as you post the stats in the Ooze thread.  (I don't have Wyrmskull Throne)


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## Cleon (Nov 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Just as soon as you post the stats in the Ooze thread.  (I don't have Wyrmskull Throne)




*It has been done*. The Slimes Rise Again!


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2011)

*Spectramouse*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 1/4
% IN LAIR: 70%l
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1 hp
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Illusions (see below)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very or better
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil 

The spectramouse – also known as the terror mouse and illusion mouse – appears to be a perfectly normal rodent of the albino sort.  Curiously, all recorded specimens have been albino; this leads many sages to speculate that there is a connection between the lack of pigment and the creature’s magical powers.

Spectramice are generally peaceful herbivores, concerned only with food, shelter, and reproduction.  Perhaps as a result of magical mutation, these intelligent rodents can utilize remarkable powrs of illusion when provoked.  When more than once spectramouse is encountered, the group is able to cooperate and create even more potent phantasms.  The powers are as follows:

A single spectramouse is able to evoke an audible glamer (as the spell of the same name) and can also make itself appear larger.  This illusory enlargement can make the spectramouse seem the size of a wolfhound, but it grants no abilities beyond deterring less-daring predators.  Two ‘mice in cooperation can duplicate a phantasmal force spell, four can effect a spectral force, and six can create a phantasmal killer.  The limits to the exercising of their illusory powers are the number of ‘mice required and 1-3 segments of “casting time” for the ‘mice to communicate and create the illusion; also, the spectramice must concentrate to maintain the illusion.

It appears that spectramice communicate through squeaking sounds.   Judging by the complexity of some illusions that have been witnessed, this sqeak-language must be very complicated.  It is believed to have subtle pitch inflections, unable to be distinguished by human ears, that can convey much information very quickly.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #8 (1987).


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## Cleon (Dec 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Spectramouse*
> 
> Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #8 (1987).




I don't remember this one at all.

Oh well, looks pretty straightforward.

Take our Farrowdale Mouse conversion, increase the mental stats, and give it an Illusion power instead of poison.

EDIT: Speaking of the *Farrowdale Mouse*, I just noticed our Homebrew is still missing Alacrity from its special attacks line, and I wanted to change the size to "4 inches long (plus a 4 inch tail)".


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Take our Farrowdale Mouse conversion, increase the mental stats, and give it an Illusion power instead of poison.




Yep, and borrow some of the "if more than one participates" approach from the misi.



Cleon said:


> EDIT: Speaking of the *Farrowdale Mouse*, I just noticed our Homebrew is still missing Alacrity from its special attacks line, and I wanted to change the size to "4 inches long (plus a 4 inch tail)".




I'll update it once this thing works fast enough to load most pages.  Ugh.


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## Cleon (Dec 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep, and borrow some of the "if more than one participates" approach from the misi.




I'll start a Working Draft.



Shade said:


> I'll update it once this thing works fast enough to load most pages.  Ugh.




Yes, I keep on having to fool around with something else while waiting for my page to reload. It's a tragedy.


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## Cleon (Dec 3, 2011)

*Spectramouse Working Draft*

*Spectramouse*
Fine Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 1/4d10 (1 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares), climb 15 ft.
*Armor Class:* 20 (+8 size, +2 Dex), touch 20, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/–20
*Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1)
*Full Attack:* 1 bite +4 melee (1)
*Space/Reach:* 1/2 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Illusions
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft. low-light vision, scent, supersonic speech
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 1, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13
*Skills: *Balance +10, Climb +10, Concentration +4, Hide +26, Move Silently +12, Spellcraft +3
*Feats:* Stealthy
*Environment:* Any land
*Organization:* Solitary, or group (2-12)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

_An albino mouse._

A spectramouse is an ordinary-seeming albino mouse with an innate  ability to create illusions. No one knows whether they are the product  of magical experimentation or a spontaneous mutation. Spectramice are  social, peaceful creatures who live in tight-knit groups. They are as  intelligent as many humanoids, but are only interested in the survival  of themselves and other mice. Most spectramice show no interest in  abstract subjects, their thoughts concentrate on finding food and  shelter, producing young, and warding off predators with their illusion  powers. They do sometimes defend mundane mice as well as other  spectramice.

Spectamice speak their own language. Their voices are too high-pitched for the hearing of most humanoids.

A spectramouse is 4 inches long (plus a 4 inch tail) and weighs about an ounce.

*COMBAT*

 Spectramice prefer to avoid combat, using their illusions  to frighten  other creatures away. If this fails to drive away a lethal threat, a  large group may resort to their _phantasmal killer_ ability.

*Illusions (Sp):* Spectramice can create illusions as at-will spell-like abilities. A group of spectramice can cooperate to produce more powerful illusions. To contribute to a cooperative illusion, a spectramouse must take a standard action and be within 30 ft. of all the other spectramice in the group casting the spell. Interrupting a spectramouse from casting a cooperative illusion will only prevent the spell from being successfully cast if it reduced the number of spectramice in the group to less than the minimum number required to cast the spell (see below). The DC of the spell equals 10, plus the spell level, plus the Charisma  bonus of the spectramouse with the highest Charisma in the group, plus a  circumstance bonus of +1 for every two additional spectramice above the  minimal number needed to cast the spell (maximum circumstance bonus  +4). The spell-like ability can originate from any mouse in the group.

A single spectramouse can create a _ghost sound_ or _disguise self_ spell-like ability (as the spells). It can use _disguise self_ to appear as a giant mouse or dire rat up to 1 foot tall and 3 feet long (not including tail).

Two or more spectramice can create a _silent image_ spell-like ability.

Four or more spectramice can create a _minor image_ spell-like ability.

Six or more spectramice can create a _major image_ spell-like ability.

Eight or more spectramice can create a _phantasmal killer_ spell-like ability.

*Supersonic Speech (Ex):* Spectramice have voices far above the frequency range of normal humanoid hearing. A spectramouse can hear normal humanoid speech, but cannot reply using its own voice. It can use _ghost sound_ or other illusions to produce speech audible to normal humanoids. Some creatures with keen hearing, such as dogs or bats, are naturally able to hear a spectramouse's speech. 

*Skills:* A spectramouse has a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A spectramouse can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.


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## Cleon (Dec 3, 2011)

Cleon said:


> EDIT: Speaking of the *Farrowdale Mouse*, I just noticed our Homebrew is still missing Alacrity from its special attacks line, and I wanted to change the size to "4 inches long (plus a 4 inch tail)".




Noticed another error - the Farrowdale Mouse should have 1 hit point, not 2.


----------



## Shade (Dec 5, 2011)

Updated Farrowdale Mouse.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated Farrowdale Mouse.




Looks fine.

Anything you'd like for the Spectramouse?

You know, I can't help thinking _Spectramouse_ sounds like an 80s childrens' TV program...


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2011)

Let's go with 60 ft. for the "must be within" for the illusions.

I'd like at least 4 ranks in Concentration, since generating their illusions is their prime directive.   For the remaining skills, maybe a mix of Spellcraft and Move Silently?

I don't think "supersonic speech" needs to be a SQ...it could easily just be in the usual languages spot.   However, I'm not really bothered by it, so if you're in love with the idea, keep it  (I'm learning to pick my battles wisely. )


----------



## Cleon (Dec 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's go with 60 ft. for the "must be within" for the illusions.




I was thinking 30 ft., but I'll go for 60 if freyar's fine with it.



Shade said:


> I'd like at least 4 ranks in Concentration, since generating their illusions is their prime directive.   For the remaining skills, maybe a mix of Spellcraft and Move Silently?




4 Concentration, 2 Spellcraft and 2 Move Silently?



Shade said:


> I don't think "supersonic speech" needs to be a SQ...it could easily just be in the usual languages spot.   However, I'm not really bothered by it, so if you're in love with the idea, keep it  (I'm learning to pick my battles wisely. )




Them's fighting words!

Hold on, them's not fighting words.

Spoilsport. 

I prefer it as a Special Quality. I did consider leaving it in the background info language slot, but I felt the DM is more likely to remember it as an SQ.


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2011)

Responding in order:

I think I like 30 ft.  These are small thing and probably should be within a smallish distance of each other to "coordinate."  As a comparison, cooperating shocker lizards need to be within 20 ft.

Those skills seem fine.

I probably prefer putting the language stuff in the flavor text, but we can keep Cleon happy here.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Responding in order:
> 
> I think I like 30 ft.  These are small thing and probably should be within a smallish distance of each other to "coordinate."  As a comparison, cooperating shocker lizards need to be within 20 ft.
> 
> Those skills seem fine.




Updating *Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> I probably prefer putting the language stuff in the flavor text, but we can keep Cleon happy here.




Quite right.

Better not rile me if you knows what's good for you...


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2011)

These don't seem to need much else, but I do have one question.  It seems like it takes some time to "set up" the illusion when several spectramice cooperate (unless 1-3 segments is trivial).  Should we make it a full-round action or something?


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## Cleon (Dec 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> These don't seem to need much else, but I do have one question.  It seems like it takes some time to "set up" the illusion when several spectramice cooperate (unless 1-3 segments is trivial).  Should we make it a full-round action or something?




The 1-3 segments is described as a "casting time". As a rule of thumb, the majority of 1E AD&D spells have a casting time of 1 segment per level (e.g. _magic missile_ = 1 segment, _fireball_ = 3 segments).

The spectramouse illusions take about the same time to produce as the equivalent spell:


_audible glamer_ is a 2nd level magic-user spell (2 segments) and a 1st level (1 segment illusionist spell).
_phantasmal force_ is is a 3rd level magic-user spell (3 segments) and a 1st level (1 segment illusionist spell).
 _phantasmal killer_ is is a 4th level (4 segment illusionist spell).
Looks like they should be standard action spell-like abilities to me.

Oh, and we'll need a caster level for the illusions to. Maybe equal to the number of mice (maximum CL 10th)?


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Oh, and we'll need a caster level for the illusions to. Maybe equal to the number of mice (maximum CL 10th)?




Sounds great.

Do any of the spells require ongoing Concentration?  If so, I think we should note that all mice that particpate in the casting must continue to concentrate to maintain the spell.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sounds great.
> 
> Do any of the spells require ongoing Concentration?  If so, I think we should note that all mice that particpate in the casting must continue to concentrate to maintain the spell.




A _phantasmal killer_ spell is instantaneous, but all the image spells have Concentration-based durations.

So, I agree we'd better tweak it. How's this:

*Illusions (Sp):* Spectramice can create illusions as at-will  spell-like abilities. A group of spectramice can cooperate to produce  more powerful illusions. To contribute to a cooperative illusion, a  spectramouse must be within 30 ft. of all the  other spectramice in the group and make a standard action (all the mice must make the same action, usually "cast a spell" or "Concentrate to maintain an active spell"). A cooperative illusion will fail if the number of  spectramice contributing to the group is reduced to less than the minimum number required by the spell (see below). The DC of the spell equals 10 plus half the  number of spectramice in the group plus the highest Charisma modifier  among the contributing spectramice. The spell-like ability can originate  from any mouse in the group.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2011)

Looks pretty good to me, except: shouldn't the DC by 10+highest Cha modifier + spell level since these are Sp instead of Su?

CR 1/2?  I feel like it should reflect the potency of the phantasmal killer, but that may not come into play that often.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good to me, except: shouldn't the DC by 10+highest Cha modifier + spell level since these are Sp instead of Su?




Didn't we settle on a number of collaborators based DC like we used for the Misi?

The illusions are supposed to be more powerful the more Spectramice there are involved, which suggests the DC could scale with group size, although that might just be a reference to the availability of more powerful SLAs.

That said, I'd be willing to consider spell level-based saves if Shade prefers them too.

Although if we do use a save DC based on the number of mice we should really cap the DC, otherwise hundred-strong groups of Spectramice will be _phantasmal killing_ everything in sight...



freyar said:


> CR 1/2?  I feel like it should reflect the potency of the phantasmal killer, but that may not come into play that often.




Hmm, that seems about right. An eight-mouse group able to cast _phantasmal killer w_orks out to CR 4, which seems in the right ballpark.


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That said, I'd be willing to consider spell level-based saves if Shade prefers them too.




That's probably a good idea, since they are Sp abilities.  Still, they should get a bonus for more mice involved.



Cleon said:


> Although if we do use a save DC based on the number of mice we should really cap the DC, otherwise hundred-strong groups of Spectramice will be _phantasmal killing_ everything in sight...




Good point!  Cap it at 8 mice?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> That's probably a good idea, since they are Sp abilities.  Still, they should get a bonus for more mice involved.




Well I've cunningly fixed the numbers so the number of mice equals  required twice the spell level, so if we give them a bonus of +1 DC per  +2 mice then the final number will end up the same. We might as well  make it all mouse-number related so the DM doesn't have to look up the spell level.



Shade said:


> Good point!  Cap it at 8 mice?




I was thinking a nice round dozen, which could explain why that's the largest group size.


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2011)

The misi had an Su ability, not an Sp one. If it's an Sp ability, the DCs really are supposed to be based on spell level.  I'd be ok with an additional bonus based on mice (+1 per 2 or 3 mice).  That's like a racial bonus more or less.

But if you want to include number of mice, maybe you want to make it an Su ability.


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> The misi had an Su ability, not an Sp one. If it's an Sp ability, the DCs really are supposed to be based on spell level.  I'd be ok with an additional bonus based on mice (+1 per 2 or 3 mice).  That's like a racial bonus more or less.




I like this approach, and I'm fairly certain we've used a similar approach before.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> The misi had an Su ability, not an Sp one. If it's an Sp ability, the DCs really are supposed to be based on spell level.  I'd be ok with an additional bonus based on mice (+1 per 2 or 3 mice).  That's like a racial bonus more or less.
> 
> But if you want to include number of mice, maybe you want to make it an Su ability.




If we do make it Su, a spectramouse wouldn't need Concentration to  prevent caster interruption, unless we add some text saying the power is prone to being interrupted like  a SLA. If we did that, it makes it a bit pointless turning it into a (Su) power.

I'd rather keep it Sp and change the description to something like "The spell level of the illusion equals half the number of contributing spectramice (maximum 6th), giving the spell a DC equal to 10 plus 1/2 the number of mice (maximum 12 mice) plus the highest Charisma modifier  among the contributing spectramice."

There are a number of Sp powers which specify level-equivalents (mostly summon powers), so we have some precedent. Maybe the spectramice have something resembling the Heighten Spell feat?


----------



## freyar (Dec 13, 2011)

The ones that specify level equivalents are all unique Sp abilities as far as I know.  Why not just do this? Also, I think "audible glamer" is probably ghost sound.  Yes, I know it's a bit fiddly, but it's closer to standard mechanics.  I'm also willing to drop the circumstance bonus.

Illusions (Sp): Spectramice can create illusions as at-will spell-like abilities. A group of spectramice can cooperate to produce more powerful illusions. To contribute to a cooperative illusion, a spectramouse must take a standard action and be within 30 ft. of all the other spectramice in the group casting the spell. Interrupting a spectramouse from casting a cooperative illusion will only prevent the spell from being successfully cast if it reduced the number of spectramice in the group to less than the minimum number required to cast the spell (see below). The DC of the spell equals 10 plus spell level in the group plus the highest Charisma modifier among the contributing spectramice plus a circumstance bonus equal to the number of spectramice contributing beyond the minimal number. The spell-like ability can originate from any mouse in the group.

A single spectramouse can create a ghost sound or disguise self spell-like ability (as the spells). It can use disguise self to appear as a giant mouse or dire rat up to 1 foot tall and 3 feet long (not including tail).  

Two or more spectramice can create a silent image spell-like ability.

Four or more spectramice can create a minor image spell-like ability.

Six or more spectramice can create a major image spell-like ability.

Eight or more spectramice can create a phantasmal killer spell-like ability.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> The ones that specify level equivalents are all unique Sp abilities as far as I know.  Why not just do this? Also, I think "audible glamer" is probably ghost sound.  Yes, I know it's a bit fiddly, but it's closer to standard mechanics.  I'm also willing to drop the circumstance bonus.




Funny, I thought I'd already converted _audible glamer_ to _ghost sound_.



freyar said:


> Illusions (Sp): Spectramice can create illusions as at-will spell-like abilities. A group of spectramice can cooperate to produce more powerful illusions. To contribute to a cooperative illusion, a spectramouse must take a standard action and be within 30 ft. of all the other spectramice in the group casting the spell. Interrupting a spectramouse from casting a cooperative illusion will only prevent the spell from being successfully cast if it reduced the number of spectramice in the group to less than the minimum number required to cast the spell (see below). The DC of the spell equals 10 plus spell level in the group plus the highest Charisma modifier among the contributing spectramice plus a circumstance bonus equal to the number of spectramice contributing beyond the minimal number. The spell-like ability can originate from any mouse in the group.




That doesn't define what the "in the group" of "spell level in the group" means. Also, the bonus should be +1 per two mice and probably have a cap.

Something like: "The DC of the spell equals 10, plus the spell level, plus the Charisma bonus of the spectramouse with the highest Charisma in the group, plus a circumstance bonus of +1 for every two additional spectramice above the minimal number needed to cast the spell (maximum circumstance bonus +4)."


----------



## freyar (Dec 14, 2011)

Funny, I don't know how that "in the group" got there.  But that reduced circumstance bonus looks fine.  Unless we want to change to a racial bonus.


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2011)

Lookin' good in the group.


----------



## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

Seems like we're all agreed, then.  Let's plug it into the working draft.


----------



## Shade (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems like we're all agreed, then.  Let's plug it into the working draft.




Make it so.


----------



## freyar (Dec 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Make it so.



*CLUNK*  I think Cleon better dodge that hint...


----------



## Cleon (Dec 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Make it so.




*It Is So*!


----------



## Cleon (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> *CLUNK*  I think Cleon better dodge that hint...




I picked it up after dodging it. Didn't want to leave a trip hazard lying around these fora.


----------



## Shade (Dec 16, 2011)

Cr 1/2?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Cr 1/2?




That's what Freyar and I were thinking of.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2011)

Yup.

Tactics: Spectramice usually try to avoid combat, using their illusions to frighten other creatures away.  Only when gathered in large groups will they go on the offensive, using their phantasmal killer ability.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yup.
> 
> Tactics: Spectramice usually try to avoid combat, using their illusions to frighten other creatures away.  Only when gathered in large groups will they go on the offensive, using their phantasmal killer ability.




Don't much care for the "go on the offensive" bit, it seems too aggressive for a "generally peaceful herbivore".

Spectramice prefer to avoid combat, using their illusions  to frighten other creatures away. If this fails to drive away a lethal threat, a large group may resort to their _phantasmal killer_ ability.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Spectramice prefer to avoid combat, using their illusions  to frighten other creatures away. If this fails to drive away a lethal threat, a large group may resort to their _phantasmal killer_ ability.





Looks good.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good.




*Updated*!

That just leaves background flavour text.

Unless someone can see any stat errors that have slipped through?


----------



## freyar (Dec 20, 2011)

No obvious ones.

Let's see:

Is is unclear whether spectramice are the result of deliberate experimentation or exposure to magical pollutants, but, whatever the case, these pacific creatures are capable of defending themselves and their rodent kin even from quite determined predators.


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## Cleon (Dec 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> No obvious ones.
> 
> Let's see:
> 
> Is is unclear whether spectramice are the result of deliberate experimentation or exposure to magical pollutants, but, whatever the case, these pacific creatures are capable of defending themselves and their rodent kin even from quite determined predators.




How's this...

A spectramouse is an ordinary-seeming albino mouse with an innate ability to create illusions. No one knows whether they are the product of magical experimentation or a spontaneous mutation. Spectramice are social, peaceful creatures who live in tight-knit groups. They are as intelligent as many humanoids, but are only interested in the survival of themselves and other mice. Most spectramice show no interest in abstract subjects, their thoughts concentrate on finding food and shelter, producing young, and warding off predators with their illusion powers. They do sometimes defend mundane mice as well as other spectramice.

Spectamice speak their own language. Their voices are too high-pitched for the hearing of most humanoids.


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2011)

It looks good, but I think you've rendered Supersonic Speech redundant.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> It looks good, but I think you've rendered Supersonic Speech redundant.




Indeed.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> Indeed.




On some occasions I like redundancy, since it reduces the risk of such accidents as "DM forgets it has that SQ".


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2011)

I'd say they're done.  Next?


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd say they're done.  Next?




They'll be done once I put the background text in the Working Draft.

*Updated*!

_Now_ they're done.


----------



## freyar (Dec 24, 2011)

You need to put in the CR also.


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## Cleon (Dec 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> You need to put in the CR also.




Funny, I thought I had.

*Re-updated*!

I assumed we're still going for CR 1/2.


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## freyar (Dec 25, 2011)

Yes, I don't think there's any other way to make sense of it.


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## Cleon (Dec 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, I don't think there's any other way to make sense of it.




Are we done then?


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## freyar (Dec 29, 2011)

Looks like it.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks like it.




What do you fancy doing next?


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2011)

No preference, just whatever comes up next.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> No preference, just whatever comes up next.




Anything in the *Unconverted Dungeon creatures* list that appeals to you?

I've got all those issues somewhere or other.


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## freyar (Jan 2, 2012)

I think we should maybe let this thread lie fallow a little while to let Shade catch up a bit.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think we should maybe let this thread lie fallow a little while to let Shade catch up a bit.




No objections to that.

He's going to have his work cut out for him!


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2012)

Transferred to Homebrews.

Here's what I'd planned for next...

*Megalomen*
After initial forays into the Mere of the Dead Men (conveniently located near one of the greatest metropolises in the Realms), the yuan-ti soon became aware of Wolfhill’s enlarging dweomer.  The yuan-ti, eon-wrapped in their mists and their mysteries, have long possessed knowledge of dark rites and evil ways, of the brewing of toxins, of the husbandry of humans, of the extraction of life to create new life.  Yet never before had they had suce a cause to take advantage of it as they did now; there was nothing to be gained in raising armies of human slaves or clones, as even the weakest of the yuan-ti—the purebloods like Esau Enoch—are fierecer and stronger than normal men.  But by cloning under Wolfhill’s aura, the yuan-ti could grow a copy that was larger and stronger than the original.  Their own magic resistance made duplicating oversized versions of themselves impossible, and trying to clone elves for their infravision or dwarves for their thick, solid builds was likewise thwarted.  Only humans represented a workable and worthwhile investment.  These clones could then be indoctrinated from “birth” with yuan-ti propaganda and moind-control techniques, yielding gian slaves who surpassed their masters in sheer strength even while lacking the yuan-ti’s innate magical abilities.  Better still, by cloning the clones, the snake-men could manufacture bigger and bigger warriors.

The rest unfolded like clockwork.  A laboratory was constructed, a supply network established.  In addition to providing food and equipment, Esau Enoch furnished the raw material:  kindapped travelers from the High Road, whose bodies were used to make the first wave of “megalomen”.  After the yuan-ti had taken what they needed from their captives, the prisoners were forcibly converted into near-mindless histachii.  For months, the clones gestated.  Then, since no person and his clone can exist at the same time and remain sane, each histachii was sacrifice to its respective clone to preserve the latter’s mind.  Bands of megalomen sallied forth to abduct travelers, and more megalomen were created.  Eventually, once the base was self-sufficient, most of the true yuan-ti left to dispense woe elsewhere.

The whole of the yuan-ti’s cloning lore is catalogued in a manual on the subject.  It was by using his high-level thief ability to read magical scrolls that Esau Enoch cloned himself (remember—the yuan-ti-s magic resistance doesn’t inhibit actual cloning, just the enlarging factor that the snake-men desire).  As soon as sthe process was complete, he locked the result away; the clone’s consciousness quickly broke under the pressure of two Enochs’ existence and was left to wallow and gibber in its insanity.

*First-generation megalomen (5):*  AL LE; AC 6; MV 12; F2; hp 10 each; THAC0 19; #AT 1; Dmg 1d8+1 (two-handed spear) +3  (Strength); S 18/51 (+2/+3); SZ M (7’ tall); ML 14; XP 35; two-handed spear, scale mail.
The megalomen are designed to be the shock troops in the pro-yuan-ti wars forseen by the abomination masters.  Brainwashed since genesis with brutal conditioning, they are wholeheartedly acquiescent to the orders of any yuan-ti.
Note:  Others that appear wield tridents, bastard swords, and shortbows.

*Second-generation megalomen (3):*  AL LE; AC 4; MV 12; F3; hp 20, 14, 12; THAC0 18; #AT 1; Dmg 1d8 (scimitar) +6  (Strength); S 18/00 (+3/+6); SZ L (8’ tall); ML 14; XP 65; scimitar, chain mail, medium shield.
These members of the “second generation” are clones made from first-generation megalomen and thus are stronger.

*Third-generation megalomen (2):*  AL LE; AC 4; MV 12; F4; hp 25, 23; THAC0 17; #AT 1; Dmg 1d4+1 (hammer) +7  (Strength); S 19 (+3/+7); SZ L (10’ tall); ML 14; XP 120; chain mail, medium shield, warhammer.
These two were specially  bred for their great strength, having been cloned from second-generation megalomen.

Note:  Later in the article, a histachii appears that was created from a megaloman, so this is possible.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #69 (1998).


----------



## Cleon (Jan 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> Transferred to Homebrews.
> 
> Here's what I'd planned for next...
> 
> *Megalomen*




The description is a bit contradictory. It reads like these are enlarged histachii clones which, like standard histachii, used to be humans. But histachii don't have fighter levels, they're 2+2 HD monsters. So which are they, giant humans or giant histachii?

Mechanically they don't seem terribly interesting. Apart from being larger and having a Strength bonus they're pretty much like humans. They don't even go Berserk like regular histachii.

The fighter levels suggests it's a template with three steps that only applies to humans or histachii, but I'm tempted to stat them as separate monsters.

Something like +4 Str and +2 Con for each generation, with a size increase at generation 2. They'll need something for the "Yuan-ti Brainwashing".


----------



## Cleon (Jan 3, 2012)

...come to think of it, the Monsters of Faerun Histachii is a templated creature, so I suppose we'll have to make these the same. It just seems too fiddly for what they're worth.


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2012)

These are giant clones of humans; the victims were only converted to histachii after the the yuan-ti had "taken what they needed from their captives."  But really, I agree, there isn't much here.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> These are giant clones of humans; the victims were only converted to histachii after the the yuan-ti had "taken what they needed from their captives."  But really, I agree, there isn't much here.




Nope, but we might actually have a swift conversion for a change.  

(Also, the bulk of the remaining Dungeon Magazine unconverted aren't terribly interesting.)

Maybe work in the powerful build trait of goliaths and some other creatures?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> These are giant clones of humans; the victims were  only converted to histachii after the the yuan-ti had "taken what they  needed from their captives."  But really, I agree, there isn't much  here.




So some humans were kidnapped and cloned, both clone and original were driven insane by the existence of their doubles, then the clones were turned into Megamen and the original humans, were turned into histachii?

That seems rather complicated.



Shade said:


> Nope, but we might actually have a swift conversion for a change.
> 
> (Also, the bulk of the remaining Dungeon Magazine unconverted aren't terribly interesting.)
> 
> Maybe work in the powerful build trait of goliaths and some other creatures?




I like Powerful Build for the basic Medium-sized model, but I'm not sure about the Large versions - do we really want them wielding Huge weapons?

Have we settled on template(s) for these?


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So some humans were kidnapped and cloned, both clone and original were driven insane by the existence of their doubles, then the clones were turned into Megamen and the original humans, were turned into histachii?
> 
> That seems rather complicated.




Indeed it does, but also accurate.



Cleon said:


> I like Powerful Build for the basic Medium-sized model, but I'm not sure about the Large versions - do we really want them wielding Huge weapons?




I'm fine with either approach.



Cleon said:


> Have we settled on template(s) for these?




Yes, defnitely template.  Probably one that results in the loss of previous special abilities/class features.


----------



## freyar (Jan 5, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So some humans were kidnapped and cloned, both clone and original were driven insane by the existence of their doubles, then the clones were turned into Megamen and the original humans, were turned into histachii?
> 
> That seems rather complicated.




I read it as: humans kidnapped, clones started, humans turned to histachii.  Then the histachii were killed before the clones were born, avoiding the insanity clause.

Let's just go ahead with Powerful Build on all of them but not boost the Str as much on the Large ones as standard advancement suggests.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> I read it as: humans kidnapped, clones started, humans turned to histachii.  Then the histachii were killed before the clones were born, avoiding the insanity clause.
> 
> Let's just go ahead with Powerful Build on all of them but not boost the Str as much on the Large ones as standard advancement suggests.




Not sure I like that, but let's work the numbers and see how it looks.

Obviously we want a Strength bonus, but the original's mediocre hit points suggest their Con isn't improved.

Indeed, going by the examples it might be penalized:

The 1st Gen Megamen have 10 hit points, which is 1 hp less than the 11 hp average for a 2nd level fighter.
The 2nd Gen Megamen have 20, 14 and 12 hp, which averages 14.66. That's 2 hp less than an average 3rd level fighter's 16.5 hp.
The 3rd level Megaman has 25, 23 hp, which averages 22. That's 2 hp *more* than an average 4th level fighter.

That suggests the strain of the procedure might weaken their health, resulting in a Con penalty.

I also suspect they're pretty stupid, like the "near mindless" Histachii, which have -4 Int and -4 Cha according to their _*Monsters of Faerun*_ template. I'd use the same mental penalties for these big lugs. 

How about:

1st Gen +4 Str, -2 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha, Powerful Build
2nd Gen +6 or +8 Str, -4 Int, -4 Cha, +1 size category
3rd Gen +8 or +12 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha, +1 size category

I'm not much fond of Powerful Build and a size increase.

A +12 Str non-elite warrior Megaman with a Huge greatclub could do 3d8+10 damage, which is more than the SRD Hill Giant. The original text lists their damage and it's significantly less than a Hill Giant.

I'm tempted to limit the Powerful Build to the 1st Gen version.


----------



## freyar (Jan 7, 2012)

I can see your reasoning.  I guess we can think of Powerful Build as being like "half" a size increase.  Sure.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> I can see your reasoning.  I guess we can think of Powerful Build as being like "half" a size increase.  Sure.




Which of the proposed Strength bonuses do you prefer?

I'm leaning towards the +6 Str for the 2nd generation, and +8 for the 3rd.


----------



## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

Yes, that seems fair.  That or +6 and +10.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, that seems fair.  That or +6 and +10.




I prefer +8 Str.

Time for a Working Draft?


----------



## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

I suppose so.  Just make one template with 3 steps?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> I suppose so.  Just make one template with 3 steps?




Yup.

I'll start a working draft.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 9, 2012)

*Megaloman Working Draft*

*Megalofolk (Template)*
_
A grotesquely muscular humanoid. It resembles an oversized human who's body has been swollen with extra flesh and bone._

 Megalofolk are giant humanoids created via yuan-ti cloning experiments.  They are magically indoctrinated  to infallibly obey their yuan-ti  masters during the creation process.   Yuan-ti use megalofolk slaves as  brute labour and disposable warriors, particularly in areas unsuited for  cold-blooded reptiles.

Each generation of megalofolk is slightly larger  than its clone  predecessors. Originally, the cloning process only  worked on humans,  but yuan-ti have figured out how to create megalofolk out  of histachii,  and rumors persist that at least one pureblood found a way  to clone  himself.     

 *Creating a Megalofolk*
"First Generation Megalofolk", "Second Generation Megalofolk" and "Third Generation Megalofolk" are templates that can be added to any human (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). The templates use all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

*Size and Type:* Type changes to Monstrous humanoid. Do not recalculate the base creature's Hit Dice, Base Attack Bonus, or Base Saves. A first generation megalofolk has the same size category as the base creature. A second or third generation megalofolk is one size category larger than the base creature.

*Hit Dice:* Same as base creature.

*Speed:* Same as base creature.

*Armor Class:* A megalman's gains a natural armor bonus equal to its generation (e.g. second generation megalofolk gain +2 natural armor). If the base creature lacks natural armor, it gains natural armor equal to its generation.

*Attack:* A megalofolk retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a slam attack if it didn't already have one. If the base creature has proficiency in any weapons, the megalofolk retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons. A megalofolk fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any). A megalofolk armed with a weapon uses its slam or a weapon, as it desires. 

*Full Attack:* A megalofolk fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it can use the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack.

*Damage:* A second or third generation megalofolk has natural weapons that do damage one step higher than the base creature, a first generation megalofolk has natural weapons that retain the damage values of the base creature. Megalofolk usually use Large-sized weapons which do damage according to their size.

Megalofolk have slam attacks. This does 1d4 damage for Medium-sized megalofolk or 1d6 damage for Large-sized megalofolk. If the base creature has a slam attack that does better damage, use that value instead.

*Space/Reach:* First and second generation megalofolk have the standard reach of a tall creature of their size category. Third generation megalofolk have the reach of a tall creature of their size category plus an additional 5 feet of reach.

*Special Attacks:* A Megalofolk retains all the special attacks of the base creature.

*Special Qualities:* A Megalofolk retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below.

*Powerful Build (Ex):* The physical stature of first generation megalofolk lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a first generation megalofolk is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the megalofolk is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. The megalofolk is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A first-generation megalofolk can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

_*Yuan-ti Conditioning (Ex):*_ A yuan-ti using a Charisma-based skill  against a megalofolk always succeeds.  A megalofolk automatically fails  all saving throws againts the mind-affecting spells and abilities of  yuan-ti.

*Abilities:* Modify the base creature's ability scores as follows:

First generation megalofolk - Str +4, Dex -2, Con -2, Int -4, Cha -4.
Second generation megalofolk - Str +6, Dex -2, Con +0, Int -4, Cha -4.
Third generation megalofolk - Str +8, Dex -4, Con +2, Int -4, Cha -4.

*Skills:* As base creature. The Megalofolk will lose skill ranks because of its reduced intelligence.

*Feats:* Same as base creature.

*Environment:* Any land
*Organization:* Solitary, gang (2-5) or warband (6-24).
*Challenge Rating:* Same as the base creature +1 for 1st or 2nd generation, +2 for 3rd generation.
*Treasure:* Same as the base creature.
*Alignment:* Usually lawful evil.
*Advancement:* By character class.
*Level Adjustment:* Same as the base creature +1 for 1st generation, +2 for 2nd or 3rd generation.

 *Sample Megalofolk*
The following sample creatures have gained the Megalofolk template.

*First Generation Megalofolk
2nd level non-elite megalofolk warrior*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 2d8 (9 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares, base speed 30 ft.)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 Dex, +4 scale mail, +1 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Longspear +5 melee (2d6+4) or trident +5 melee (2d6+4) or slam +5 melee (1d4+3) or trident +1 ranged (1d8+3)
Full Attack: Longspear +5 melee (2d6+4); or trident +5 melee (2d6+3) and slam +0 melee (1d4+1);  or slam +5 melee (1d4+3); or trident +1 ranged (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (15 ft. with longspear)
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Powerful build, yuan-ti conditioning
Saves: Fort +3, Ref -1, Will -1
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 9, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 4
Skills: Climb +0, Jump -5, Swim -3
*Skills would be Climb +4, Jump +5, Swim +5 if the megalofolk didn't have penalties from its scale armor
Feats: Power Attack
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary, gang (2-5) or warband (6-24)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +1

 The first generation megalofolk presented here is based on a 2nd-level human warrior, using the following base ability scores: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

*Second Generation **Megalofolk
3rd level non-elite megalofolk warrior*
Large Monstrous Humanoid
 Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (19 hp)
 Initiative: -1
 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares, base speed 30 ft.)
 Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +5 chainmail, +2 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15
 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
 Attack: Falchion +7 melee (2d6+6/18-20) or slam +6 melee (1d6+4) or shortbow +2 ranged (1d8/×3)
 Full Attack: Falchion +7 melee (2d6+6/18-20) or slam +6 melee (1d6+4) or shortbow +2 ranged (1d8/×3)
 Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
 Special Attacks: —
 Special Qualities: Yuan-ti conditioning
 Saves: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +0
 Abilities: Str 19, Dex 9, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 4
 Skills: Climb +1, Jump -5, Swim -3
*Skills would be Climb +6, Jump +6, Swim +6 if the megalofolk didn't have penalties from its chainmail armor
 Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (falchion)
 Environment: Any land
 Organization: Solitary, gang (2-5) or warband (6-24)
 Challenge Rating: 3
  Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
 Level Adjustment: +2

 The second generation megalofolk presented here is based on a 3rd-level  human warrior, using the following base ability scores: Str 13, Dex 11,  Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

 *Third Generation **Megalofolk
4th level elite megalofolk fighter
* Large Monstrous Humanoid
 Hit Dice: 4d10+12 (34 hp)
 Initiative: -1
 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares, base speed 30 ft.)
 Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +5 breastplate, +2 heavy wooden shield, +3 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 18
 Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+15
 Attack: Warhammer +11 melee (2d6+9/×3) or trident +10 melee (2d6+7) or slam +10 melee (1d6+7) or trident +3 ranged (1d8+7)
 Full Attack: Warhammer +11 melee (2d6+9/×3) or trident +10 melee (2d6+7) or slam +10 melee (1d6+7) or trident +3 ranged (1d8+7)
 Space/Reach: 10 ft./15 ft.
 Special Attacks: —
 Special Qualities: Yuan-ti conditioning
 Saves: Fort +3, Ref -1, Will -3
 Abilities: Str 24, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 4
 Skills: Climb +5, Jump +0, Swim +1
*Skills would be Climb +9, Jump +10, Swim +9 if the megalofolk didn't have penalties from its chainmail armor
 Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (warhammer), Weapon Specialization (warhammer)
 Environment: Any land
 Organization: Solitary, gang (2-5) or warband (6-24)
 Challenge Rating: 6
  Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
 Level Adjustment: +2

 The third generation megalofolk presented here is based on a 4th-level  human fighter, using the following base ability scores: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. The ability advancement it acquired from gaining 4 HD was assigned to Strength.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2012)

Yuan-ti Conditioning should maybe just be that their trained to obey yuan-ti, even without magical compulsion.  

I think you have feats right, in which case you can leave out that line, I think. The lines from Environment to LA look fine.


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## Cleon (Jan 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yuan-ti Conditioning should maybe just be that their trained to obey yuan-ti, even without magical compulsion.




I was thinking of having them be unable to resist non-magical influences from yuan-ti as well as magical compulsion, which is why I mentioned Charisma-based skill contests.



freyar said:


> I think you have feats right, in which case you can leave out that line, I think. The lines from Environment to LA look fine.




I'd just leave the feats "Same as base creature" then.

When you say the lines from Environment to LA look fine, did you mean  the "white bits" or the "red bits"?

I'm OK with making them Lawful Evil, as it's an interesting contrast to their chaotic masters. Maybe their lawful alignment is a side-effect of their conditioning?

That leaves deciding on whether the environment is Any Land or Any Warm Land. I'd prefer Any Land, since they're basically humans.

Oh, and setting a Challenge Rating and Level Adjustment, which should vary depending on their generation. A 1st generation is possibly +1 CR, +1 LA, a 2nd generation +1 CR, +2 LA, and a 3rd generation +2 CR, +2 LA?


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2012)

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I think it's just simpler to say "Megalomen are conditioned to obey yuan-ti under any circumstances."

I think I read those lines a bit fast and missed some of the questions.

Probably LE, given that the original designers probably knew about the yuan-ti alignment.

ANy land works.

I'll agree with those assessments on CR/LA.  Though it would be neat if we could do +1.5 CR for the 2nd generation ones.


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## Cleon (Jan 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I think it's just simpler to say "Megalomen are conditioned to obey yuan-ti under any circumstances."




I suppose that covers it. If they always obey yuan-ti orders, the snakemen don't really need to bother charming them.



freyar said:


> I think I read those lines a bit fast and missed some of the questions.
> 
> Probably LE, given that the original designers probably knew about the yuan-ti alignment.
> 
> ...




Lawful Evil and Any Land are my preferences too.

Sadly 3rd edition doesn't support half Challenge Ratings. 

We just need a standard text block for Powerful Build and a description to finish off the template.


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## freyar (Jan 17, 2012)

Cribbing from the SRD half-giant:

Powerful Build: The physical stature of first generation megalomen lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a first generation megaloman is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the megaloman is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A first-generation megaloman is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A first-generation megaloman can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Should we change the name to megalofolk?


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## Cleon (Jan 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> Cribbing from the SRD half-giant:
> 
> Powerful Build: The physical stature of first generation megalomen lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
> Whenever a first generation megaloman is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the megaloman is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
> A first-generation megaloman is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A first-generation megaloman can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.




Dang it, I forgot the Half-Giant was in the Psionic Monsters SRD.

Updating *Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Should we change the name to megalofolk?




Hmm, you know I actually like Megalofolk better than Megalomen. It just sounds better.


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## Shade (Jan 19, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, you know I actually like Megalofolk better than Megalomen. It just sounds better.




Agreed!


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## Cleon (Jan 19, 2012)

Shade said:


> Agreed!




Updating *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2012)

Shouldn't the damage be boosted one step for the 2nd and 3rd generation ones, considering they'll be using bigger weapons?  

Some other considerations: might we want to change the type to giant rather than monstrous humanoid?  It would seem appropriate.  Also, I wouldn't mind adding slams to the 2nd and 3rd generation ones, like giants.  They need a bit more anyway.


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## Cleon (Jan 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Shouldn't the damage be boosted one step for the 2nd and 3rd generation ones, considering they'll be using bigger weapons?
> 
> Some other considerations: might we want to change the type to giant rather than monstrous humanoid?  It would seem appropriate.  Also, I wouldn't mind adding slams to the 2nd and 3rd generation ones, like giants.  They need a bit more anyway.




I'm agreeable to both. The "Do not recalculate the base creature's racial Hit Dice, hit points, Base Attack Bonus, Base Saves or skills" needs some changes to.

Also, I'm wondering about giving the Second Gen Megalofolk a 5 ft. Reach and the Third Gen Megalofolk a 10 ft. reach, just to differentiate them a bit. As it is, there's not much to justify giving the 3rd Gen a CR bonus a point higher than the 2nd gen.

e.g.

*Space/Reach:* A second or third generation megalofolk's space  increases to match its increased size category. The reach of a second generation  megalofolk is the same as the base creature, but the reach of a third  generation increases to match its increased size.


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## Cleon (Jan 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Some other considerations: might we want to change the type to giant rather than monstrous humanoid?




I prefer Monstrous Humanoid for them over Giant. It just feels wrong.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm not going to push on the type change to giant, but I would be open to it.

I don't like the exceptionally short reach for the 2nd gen ones.  What if they don't get slams until the 3rd generation?  We could also give them something like rend if they need more.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'm not going to push on the type change to giant, but I would be open to it.




Same here.



freyar said:


> I don't like the exceptionally short reach for the 2nd gen ones.  What if they don't get slams until the 3rd generation?  We could also give them something like rend if they need more.




Ditto.


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## Cleon (Jan 23, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'm not going to push on the type change to giant, but I would be open to it.
> 
> I don't like the exceptionally short reach for the 2nd gen ones.  What if they don't get slams until the 3rd generation?  We could also give them something like rend if they need more.




The slams don't add much to their combat effectiveness, since they'll mostly use weapons that do far better damage.

Rend would imply they have far more effective natural weapons than their original flavour supports.

Besides, 5 foot Reach isn't that exceptional for a Large creature. Plenty of Large creatures have it. Of course, most of them are "long" creatures rather than "tall" ones. Maybe Megalofolk are so grotesquely distorted that their second generation look as wide as they are tall? Or they just have short, stubby and grotesquely muscular arms. 

Basically, I'd like something to justify third gen Megalofolk being a CR higher than 2nd gen. I suppose we could give 2nd gen standard +1 size reach, and 3rd gen +1 size reach with a 5 ft bonus, but I prefer the "stubby second gen" version.


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Besides, 5 foot Reach isn't that exceptional for a Large creature. Plenty of Large creatures have it. Of course, most of them are "long" creatures rather than "tall" ones. Maybe Megalofolk are so grotesquely distorted that their second generation look as wide as they are tall? Or they just have short, stubby and grotesquely muscular arms.
> 
> Basically, I'd like something to justify third gen Megalofolk being a CR higher than 2nd gen. I suppose we could give 2nd gen standard +1 size reach, and 3rd gen +1 size reach with a 5 ft bonus, but I prefer the "stubby second gen" version.




I kinda like the reach bonus, perhaps it is from an infusion of "serpentine DNA"?


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## Cleon (Jan 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> I kinda like the reach bonus, perhaps it is from an infusion of "serpentine DNA"?




That's it! Snakes don't have any arms at all...

Shall I stick that Space/Reach bit in the Working Draft, then?


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2012)

So the 3rd gen ones get exceptional longer reach?  Sounds good to me.


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> So the 3rd gen ones get exceptional longer reach?  Sounds good to me.




 Updating *Working Draft*.

Alternatively we could use...

*Space/Reach:* A second or third generation megalofolk's  space increases to match its increased size category. Second generation megalofolk have the reach of a long creature of their size, third generation megalofolk have the reach of tall creatures.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2012)

I thought we decided we didn't like stubby arms?


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## Cleon (Jan 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> I thought we decided we didn't like stubby arms?




I though you decided you did like stubby arms.

So, are you suggesting 5 ft. reach per generation, so the third generation have longer reach than a standard Large creature?

Or just standard reach for 1st to 2nd generation, with 5 ft. additional reach for the third generation?

I prefer the previous "stubby second generation" version.


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Or just standard reach for 1st to 2nd generation, with 5 ft. additional reach for the third generation?




I prefer this version.


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I though you decided you did like stubby arms.




 In post 788, Shade said he liked extra reach on the 3rd gen ones, and then I agreed.  Not less reach on the 2nd gen, but more reach on 3rd gen.



> Or just standard reach for 1st to 2nd generation, with 5 ft. additional reach for the third generation?






Shade said:


> I prefer this version.




I'm with Shade.  And by "standard reach" I mean "standard reach for its size category, including the fact that human-shaped critters are tall and not long."


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## Cleon (Jan 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> In post 788, Shade said he liked extra reach on the 3rd gen ones, and then I agreed.  Not less reach on the 2nd gen, but more reach on 3rd gen.
> 
> I'm with Shade.  And by "standard reach" I mean "standard reach for its size category, including the fact that human-shaped critters are tall and not long."




I could live with that.   Updating *Working Draft*.

They'll still be stubby in MY campaign, though.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2012)

I think I have a new nickname for you, Cleon.  "Stubby." 

Ready for samples?


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## Shade (Jan 31, 2012)

As currently presented, "Yuan-ti Conditioning" seems like it should just be flavor text.   Unless we add something mechanical, like "megalofolk automatically fail any saving throws against mind-affecting spells and abilities used against them by yuan-ti" or somesuch.


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## Cleon (Feb 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think I have a new nickname for you, Cleon.  "Stubby."
> 
> Ready for samples?




I'll have you know that when I shapechange into a gorilla I have long arms for my height. 

I think we've got a bit of arguing over Yuan-Ti Conditioning to finish first, and I suppose we could sort out a description and/or background flavour.


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## Cleon (Feb 1, 2012)

Shade said:


> As currently presented, "Yuan-ti Conditioning" seems like it should just be flavor text.   Unless we add something mechanical, like "megalofolk automatically fail any saving throws against mind-affecting spells and abilities used against them by yuan-ti" or somesuch.




I wanted to make it something like autofail saving throws vs. mind-affecting attacks against yuan-ti, plus have yuan-ti's Charisma-based skill checks autosucceed against Megafolk, but a certain party preferred a non-mechanical approach.


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## freyar (Feb 2, 2012)

It's not so much that I wanted to be "non-mechanical" as that I thought the current wording was a simpler, more elegant way of saying the same thing.   But if you both prefer the clunkier phrasing....


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## Cleon (Feb 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> It's not so much that I wanted to be "non-mechanical" as that I thought the current wording was a simpler, more elegant way of saying the same thing.   But if you both prefer the clunkier phrasing....




Forward to Clunkiville then!

How's this:

*Yuan-ti Conditioning:* If a yuan-ti uses a Charisma-based skill and mind-affecting power against a megalofolk it always succeeds, the megalofolk is not allowed a saving throw or resistance check.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Forward to Clunkiville then!
> 
> How's this:
> 
> *Yuan-ti Conditioning:* If a yuan-ti uses a Charisma-based skill and mind-affecting power against a megalofolk it always succeeds, the megalofolk is not allowed a saving throw or resistance check.




Let's slap an (Ex) on there (I loathe untyped SAs/SQs) and reword slightly:

*Yuan-ti Conditioning (Ex):* A yuan-ti using a Charisma-based skill against a megalofolk always succeeds.  A megalofolk automatically fails all saving throws againts the mind-affecting spells and abilities of yuan-ti.

I dropped the resistance check since it lacks spell resistance.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> Let's slap an (Ex) on there (I loathe untyped SAs/SQs) and reword slightly:
> 
> *Yuan-ti Conditioning (Ex):* A yuan-ti using a Charisma-based skill against a megalofolk always succeeds.  A megalofolk automatically fails all saving throws againts the mind-affecting spells and abilities of yuan-ti.
> 
> I dropped the resistance check since it lacks spell resistance.




No objections.

  Updating *Working Draft*.

What about the description and background?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2012)

Cleon said:


> What about the description and background?




_This megalobeing dons megaloarmor and wields megaloweapons._

Megalofolk are megaloriffic.


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## Cleon (Feb 7, 2012)

Shade said:


> _This megalobeing dons megaloarmor and wields megaloweapons._
> 
> Megalofolk are megaloriffic.




Megamazing but needs more megacontent.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Megamazing but needs more megacontent.




They like tossing back Megalowenbraus while dining upon megalomein?  

But seriously...

Megalofolk are clones of clones created from humans via yuan-ti experimentation.   Each generation of megalofolk breeds slightly larger than its predecessors.  Although originally the cloning process only worked on humans, yuan-ti have figured out how to create megalofolk out of histachii, and rumors persist that at least one pureblood found a way to clone himself.


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2012)

That would work for me.


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> They like tossing back Megalowenbraus while dining upon megalomein?
> 
> But seriously...
> 
> Megalofolk are clones of clones created from humans via yuan-ti experimentation.   Each generation of megalofolk breeds slightly larger than its predecessors.  Although originally the cloning process only worked on humans, yuan-ti have figured out how to create megalofolk out of histachii, and rumors persist that at least one pureblood found a way to clone himself.




I don't much like the "clones of clones". Also, doesn't the "breeds slightly larger than its predecessors" mean their _offspring_ are larger, not the clone itself?

I'd also like some mention of what they're used for.

How about.

Megalofolk are giant humanoids created via yuan-ti cloning experiments. They are magically indoctrinated  to infallibly obey their yuan-ti masters during the creation process.   Yuan-ti use megalofolk slaves as brute labour and disposable warriors, particularly in areas unsuited for cold-blooded reptiles.

Each generation of megalofolk is slightly larger  than its clone predecessors. Originally, the cloning process only  worked on humans, but yuan-ti have figured out how to create megalofolk out  of histachii, and rumors persist that at least one pureblood found a way  to clone himself.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2012)

Works for me.  Throw it into the Draft.


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> Works for me.  Throw it into the Draft.




  Updating *Working Draft*.

I also added a description:

_ A grotesquely muscular humanoid. It resembles an oversized human who's body has been swollen with extra flesh and bone._


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2012)

I think we're ready for samples.


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> I think we're ready for samples.




Agreed.

Warriors, fighters or a combination?

1st Gen - Warrior 2 with Large longspear?
2nd Gen - Warrior 3 with Large falchion?
3rd Gen - Fighter 4 with Large warhammer?


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Warriors, fighters or a combination?
> 
> ...




Those appeal.


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## Cleon (Feb 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> Those appeal.




Standard Warrior non-elite array for the first two (Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8), elite for the third (Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8)?


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## freyar (Feb 14, 2012)

Yes, might as well.


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## Cleon (Feb 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, might as well.




   Updating *Working Draft*.


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2012)

Power Attack for 1st generation, and I agree with your feat selection for the later generations.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> Power Attack for 1st generation, and I agree with your feat selection for the later generations.




    Updating *Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2012)

You know, the third generation version doesn't look like it's worth a Challenge Rating of 6, but I'm thinking we might have to put up with it.

CRs were never a very exact metric.


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2012)

Cleon said:


> You know, the third generation version doesn't look like it's worth a Challenge Rating of 6, but I'm thinking we might have to put up with it.
> 
> CRs were never a very exact metric.




Agreed on all counts.


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## Cleon (Feb 21, 2012)

Shade said:


> Agreed on all counts.




So is that it for them?


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2012)

Yes, and agreed on the CR comments.


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## Cleon (Feb 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, and agreed on the CR comments.




Good oh! Time to move on to the next, then.


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Good oh! Time to move on to the next, then.



Good.


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> Good.




Next?


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2012)

I'll get 'em transferred and get something new soon.


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'll get 'em transferred and get something new soon.




I can wait.


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