# Optimization help for Warlock/Ur-Priest



## SnowHeart (Apr 20, 2009)

Earlier in this thread I had asked for optimization help with a Warlock/Cleric build.  I received some great advice and rebuilt it as a Warlock/Ur-Priest.  Any additional suggestions and advice would be appreciated.

Warlock 7 / Ur-Priest 2 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Eldritch Disciple 9

Ability Scores (with 32-point buy)
STR 10
DEX 12
CON 17 (increased from 12 with Manual of Bodily Health +5)
INT 12
WIS 19 (increased from 16 with 3 points from HD increases)
CHA 17 (increased from 15 with 2 points from HD increases)

Feats
Iron Will (prereq for Ur-Priest)
Fiendish Heritage
Noncombatant (flaw)
Nonreactive (flaw)
Fiendish Power
Fiendish Resistance
Spell Focus (Evil) (prereq for Ur-Priest)
Spell Penetration
Fiendish Legacy
Quickened Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
Undead Leadership
Empower Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
OPEN (still have feat slot for 21st level not yet picked)

Invocations
Devils Sight
Eldritch Spear
See the Unseen
Eldritch Chain
Fell Flight
Hellrime Blast
Enervating Shadow
Repelling Blast
Vitriolic Blast
Utterdark Blast
Retributive Invisibility

In terms of gear, I am assuming a wealth by level spending limit of 975k for a 21st level PC.  I'm planning on purchasing a mithril breastplate, gloves of dex +6, periapt of wisdom +6, and cloak of charisma +6, as well as the Ring of Chaotic Fury from the Epic Level Handbook (and, as referenced above, a Manual of Bodily Health +5).  Changes or suggestions for additional gear would be welcome.

On the invocations, am I taking too many of a defensive or perceptive nature? I figure the Ur-Priest spells are going to be mostly for buffing and defense (particularly since his effective caster level is going to be too low to get through tougher spell resistance), but the 24 hour duration of many of the invocations is very attractive.  I was also thinking of using a combination of the Devil's Sight with a Darkness spell and/or Enervating Shadow to give me concealment while still letting me see and attack normally.

In general, we run into a lot of creatures with high Spell Resistance and high saving throws and our battles are frequently huge.  As an example, we just stormed a mind-flayer nautaloid with 20+ mindflayers on the upper decks with an elder brain (CR 25) and other creatures, and then as we moved into the lower decks encountered another 25 mindflayers and their minions.


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## Drowbane (Apr 20, 2009)

"Warlock 7 / Ur-Priest 2 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Eldritch Disciple 9"

I don't have access to Complete Mage on this computer, so I'm assuming Eld Disciple's level 9 ability is worth taking?  ED doesn't improved your Ur-casting past level 8, but would continue to improve Warlock.  If ED 9 isn't completely *awesome* I'd recommend taking a dip into Binder (Tome of Magic) and picking up the Naberius (sp?) vestige, this will help alot with that nasty losing 1 con everytime you use a Hell-fire Blast.  Naberius causes you to heal one ability per round (only damage? maybe drain too).

Alternately, a dip into Marshal is also very nice... +Cha mod on caster level checks vs SR proved to be very handy in the last semi-epic campaign I was in.

I don't see much point for the Fiendish Heritage feats (except of course flavor).  See if your DM will House Rule in Practised Invoker (arcane, divine, and psi all get it why not 'locks?).  Also, I again recommend Mortalbane (Book of Vile Darkness).  +2d6 with your Eldritch Blasts 5/day (you can take feat more than once for another +5/day) is nothing to sneeze at.

I'll contemplate some gear and get back to this...

Another dip... Mindbender (complete arcane) gives you telepathy 100ft.  You'd need to know the Charm invocation though (unless you can manage it with Ur).


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## Eldritch_Lord (Apr 20, 2009)

SnowHeart said:


> Earlier in this thread I had asked for optimization help with a Warlock/Cleric build.  I received some great advice and rebuilt it as a Warlock/Ur-Priest.  Any additional suggestions and advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Warlock 7 / Ur-Priest 2 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Eldritch Disciple 9




I don't see a level of binder in here, nor do I see Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) below.  Tsk, tsk.  The hellfire warlock has the nasty drawback of dealing you Con damage with each shot (pointless, in my eyes, since the warlock _needs_ the damage boost), so you're going to need some way to mitigate that, either with a level of Binder to get Naberius (heals 1 ability damage per round) or the Strongheart Vest soulmeld (effectively DR for ability damage).

Also, might I suggest not waiting so long to get into Eldritch Disciple?  Picking up a level of binder in there gets you +2 base Fort.  That lets you get into Ur-Priest at 5th level, leaving you with

Warlock 4 / Binder 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 2 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Eldritch Disciple +6 / Warlock +2



> Ability Scores (with 32-point buy)
> STR 10
> DEX 12
> CON 17 (increased from 12 with Manual of Bodily Health +5)
> ...




The abilities and feats you have look good.  However, you took Unreactive as a flaw.  _Never never never_ give up initiative!  As a ranged single-target blaster, you don't want your enemies to buff or get behind cover or anything like that.  I would suggest Vulnerable (-1 AC) which is nicely canceled out by one binder pact augmentation which gives you +1 insight to AC.

In terms of the open feat slot...not sure.  I'll get back to you if I think of anything.



> Invocations
> Devils Sight
> Eldritch Spear
> See the Unseen
> ...




These look good.  I would consider replacing one of them with Flee the Scene, though; teleportation is very useful, even at short range, and the major image can come in handy.



> In terms of gear, I am assuming a wealth by level spending limit of 975k for a 21st level PC.  I'm planning on purchasing a mithril breastplate, gloves of dex +6, periapt of wisdom +6, and cloak of charisma +6, as well as the Ring of Chaotic Fury from the Epic Level Handbook (and, as referenced above, a Manual of Bodily Health +5).  Changes or suggestions for additional gear would be welcome.




The _greater chasuble of fell power_ (Complete Arcane) gives you +2d6 damage with eldritch blast, so I'd grab one of those.  Other than that, I'm not sure; I've heard the MIC has some nice warlock-specific items you might want to look at.



> On the invocations, am I taking too many of a defensive or perceptive nature? I figure the Ur-Priest spells are going to be mostly for buffing and defense (particularly since his effective caster level is going to be too low to get through tougher spell resistance), but the 24 hour duration of many of the invocations is very attractive.  I was also thinking of using a combination of the Devil's Sight with a Darkness spell and/or Enervating Shadow to give me concealment while still letting me see and attack normally.




That's a common strategy, and a good one.



> In general, we run into a lot of creatures with high Spell Resistance and high saving throws and our battles are frequently huge.  As an example, we just stormed a mind-flayer nautaloid with 20+ mindflayers on the upper decks with an elder brain (CR 25) and other creatures, and then as we moved into the lower decks encountered another 25 mindflayers and their minions.




On a side note: Nautiloid!  Go Spelljammer!

Ahem.

High SR and saves is going to be a pain.  Vitriolic Blast is going to help with that at higher levels, so you might want to pick up an item that lets you change the damage type of your blast--an enemy with high SR _and_ acid resistance or immunity will ruin your day.  High saves...might not be a problem, if you use your spells well.  You can beef up your saves fairly well, or simply fall back on buffing others.

Overall, looks like a good build.


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## SnowHeart (Apr 20, 2009)

Thanks guys.  As a preface, the precise order of advancement I was looking at was:  6 Warlock / 2 Ur-Priest / 9 Eldritch Disciple / 3 Hellfire Warlock / +1 Warlock.  Without looking at the Binder or other classes, this was the quickest way to meet the Skill and Saving Throw prereqs for Ur-Priest, the spell-casting requirements for Eldritch Disciple and then the rest of it fell in easily.  I should also add that this build is currently premised on a human with a bonus feat and skill points.

 Let me try to deal with the suggestions/comments in order.

Drowbane: 


> I'm assuming Eld Disciple's level 9 ability is worth taking?



Sadly, it offers nothing special.  The only reason I took the 9th level was because the first one does not improve the casting of the divine class.    (Eldritch Theurge gives you 1+1 for all ten levels, but not Eldritch Disciple.)  That's the only reason. 



> Also, I again recommend Mortalbane (Book of Vile Darkness). +2d6 with your Eldritch Blasts 5/day (you can take feat more than once for another +5/day) is nothing to sneeze at



Definitely not ignoring your advice here and this was a tough bit of balancing and it may be worth reconsidering.  I actually had Mortalbane in at one point (replaced it with spell penetration), but took it out because it seemed duplicative of the damage bonuses from Hellfire Warlock.  Although I'm struggling to pick a feat for 21st level, I actually have a ton of non-epic feats I'd like to put in there and so decided to take it out in favor of better chances of penetrating SR.  It was a great suggestion, though, and I'm open to reconsidering it.



> I don't see much point for the Fiendish Heritage feats (except of course flavor). See if your DM will House Rule in Practised Invoker (arcane, divine, and psi all get it why not 'locks?).



I went with the Fiendish chain largely because of the bonuses to Caster Level and DCs, but the resistances and teleporting 1/day was very attractive as well.  It just seemed to meld well with the character and build.

I'll take a look at the Binder and Marshal classes.  Eldritch Lord also mentioned the Binder, so it sounds like I should definitely take a peek at that.

Eldritch Lord:  



> I don't see a level of binder in here, nor do I see Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) below.  The hellfire warlock has the nasty drawback of dealing you Con damage with each shot (pointless, in my eyes, since the warlock _needs_ the damage boost), so you're going to need some way to mitigate that, either with a level of Binder to get Naberius (heals 1 ability damage per round) or the Strongheart Vest soulmeld (effectively DR for ability damage).



I will definitely look at the Binder class!  Uncle, Uncle!    Where do you find the Strongheart Vest soulmeld?  (My DM is very RAW but I'm not sure he'd allow DR to apply, particularly since I that ability of the Hellfire Warlock says it won't function for someone without con or who is immune to Con damage.)



> The abilities and feats you have look good.  However, you took Unreactive as a flaw.  _Never never never_ give up initiative! As a ranged single-target blaster, you don't want your enemies to buff or get behind cover or anything like that. I would suggest Vulnerable (-1 AC) which is nicely canceled out by one binder pact augmentation which gives you +1 insight to AC.



Good Point.  I was thinking along the lines that he was going to have a Death Knight "bodyguard" with a high initiative (from the Undead Leadership feat) that would cover him that first round, but... yeah.  This is probably even more true for a character that is going to need to stay mobile and use his abilities to avoid getting squashed.



> The _greater chasuble of fell power_ (Complete Arcane) gives you +2d6 damage with eldritch blast, so I'd grab one of those.



Nice, I will have to look at that.  The MIC does have some nice items, too, but a lot of them seem more targetted towards low-level warlocks.  There were some gloves of eldritch admixture (going to one of the other suggestions), but the flip-side of that is then I lose the Gloves of Dexterity.  Perhaps I could buy them and switch them for those times when the ability is needed.


Thanks guys.  Really appreciate the help.


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## s-dub (Apr 20, 2009)

With 900+k gold to spend it wouldn't hurt to take a few +50% item costs to get multiple abilities to one item slot.  As long as your DM allows it, of course.


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## Runestar (Apr 21, 2009)

Doesn't ur-priest require +3 fort save? So you shouldn't be able to enter as a warlock until warlock9, since they have poor fort saves, IIRC. You will likely have to enter as warlock5/mindbender1.



> With 900+k gold to spend it wouldn't hurt to take a few +50% item costs to get multiple abilities to one item slot. As long as your DM allows it, of course.




Or get MIC. It essentially removes the x1.5 cost multiplier for your basic stat boosting items. For example, you can add +6 int enhancement to an existing headgear at 1x price, not 1.5x.


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## SnowHeart (Apr 21, 2009)

Runestar said:


> Doesn't ur-priest require +3 fort save? So you shouldn't be able to enter as a warlock until warlock9, since they have poor fort saves, IIRC. You will likely have to enter as warlock5/mindbender1.



Well, I might have done something wrong, but I counted the +1 boost to the fort save from his Constitution score.  Incorrect?


> Or get MIC. It essentially removes the x1.5 cost multiplier for your basic stat boosting items. For example, you can add +6 int enhancement to an existing headgear at 1x price, not 1.5x.



That will definitely be useful.  What page is that?


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## Runestar (Apr 21, 2009)

> That will definitely be useful.  What page is that?




Page 234.



> Well, I might have done something wrong, but I counted the +1 boost to the fort save from his Constitution score.  Incorrect?




You should be using his base, unmodified fort save. 

So your build would be something like warlock5/mindbender1/ur-priest2/ED10/hellfire3. Squeeze in binder1 only if your DM allows it to offset the con damage from hellfire blast. There might be some conflict in flavour between ur-priest and eldritch disciple, but nothing a little ingenuity can't work around.


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## SnowHeart (Apr 22, 2009)

Runestar said:


> You should be using his base, unmodified fort save.
> 
> So your build would be something like warlock5/mindbender1/ur-priest2/ED10/hellfire3. Squeeze in binder1...



Cool; thanks for catching the Fort save issue.  

As for the mindbender suggestion, why not just use Binder?  +2 Fort and +2 Will at 1st level.


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## Runestar (Apr 22, 2009)

SnowHeart said:


> Cool; thanks for catching the Fort save issue.
> 
> As for the mindbender suggestion, why not just use Binder?  +2 Fort and +2 Will at 1st level.




Sure, if DM allows it. I was just listing an alternative in case he did not allow naberious to negate the con damage from hellfire blast.


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## Eldritch_Lord (Apr 23, 2009)

SnowHeart said:


> I will definitely look at the Binder class!  Uncle, Uncle!    Where do you find the Strongheart Vest soulmeld?  (My DM is very RAW but I'm not sure he'd allow DR to apply, particularly since I that ability of the Hellfire Warlock says it won't function for someone without con or who is immune to Con damage.)




The soulmeld is in Magic of Incarnum.  It's not literally DR for ability damage, it just reduces any ability damage you'd take.  I'm quite a RAW DM as well, and I allow it just fine--reducing ability damage doesn't make you immune to ability damage, any more than a barbarian's DR 1/-- makes him immune to hit point damage.


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## Ryfte (Dec 11, 2009)

*21st level feat selection...*

I noticed that you're allowed to take the warlock epic feats...

Shadowmaster is by far the most useful epic feat there effectively giving you unlimited summoning with all the summoning spells from level 1 to 8, as well as a ton of other possibilities. It also allows for direct damage from other sources as well as walls and fogs which are great for additional battlefield control. Also of note is that many of the summons have spell-like abilities... thus having unlimited summons of those creatures effectively gives you unlimited uses of those SLAs... amazingly useful!


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## GentleButStrong (May 22, 2018)

This might be nearly ten years too late. But it is possible to use extreme cheesy goodness to be a Warlock 1 / Anima Mage 10 / Ur-priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 7

This character would end up with the invoking of an 18th-level warlock (dark invocations), the spellcasting of a 9th-level ur-priest (9th-level divine spells), and the pact-making of a 10th-level binder (a pair of 6th-level vestiges assuming you take Improved Binding)

6th-level vestiges  allows you to pick Zceryll, the Star Spawn. And fun fact, the *free* Summon Monster spell you can cast once every 5 rounds is not keyed off your binder level. The text says "You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon" so spam Summon Monster IX, and that creature gets the pseudonatural template applied to it for free... And so do you.

Also since we complete anima mage entirely we get vestige casting, i.e. the ability to cast a spell as if Still and Silent and as an immediate action! Interrupting any action by any character. 

To get in to Anima Mage early you need to use the two feats from flaws to get Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige from Tome of Magic. This gives us the ability to bind a single vestige, which grants only a single power, as a 5th-level binder. That allows us to eliminate the level of binder altogether.

Thus, entry into Warlock 1/Anima Mage is entirely possible, and absurdly, it advances us as if we were taking binder levels even though we have none to begin with.

If retraining or psychic reformation is available, our Warlock 1/Anima Mage 2 can take Improved Binding and safely ditch Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige.

This build drops Hellfire Warlock, which would be great to pick up in epic (especially since you can certainly bind Naberius)

This was posted to Stack Exchange at

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/quest...level-casting-warlock-invocations-and-binding

By the amazingly good KRyan

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/users/4563/kryan

Some alterations were made.


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## TwoSix (May 23, 2018)

GentleButStrong said:


> This might be nearly ten years too late. But it is possible to use extreme cheesy goodness to be a Warlock 1 / Anima Mage 10 / Ur-priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 7



Just out of curiosity, what chain of events lead you to a 9 year old post?  Are you an active 3.5 player, you were googling "ur priest", and this thread popped up?

No shade being thrown, but I see necroed posts around here quite frequently and I'm always curious what leads to them.


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## laeamin (Feb 14, 2019)

TwoSix said:


> Just out of curiosity, what chain of events lead you to a 9 year old post?  Are you an active 3.5 player, you were googling "ur priest", and this thread popped up?
> 
> No shade being thrown, but I see necroed posts around here quite frequently and I'm always curious what leads to them.




For me it was looking into eldritch disciple builds


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## Rajin_senretsu (Oct 3, 2019)

I found this while doing research for an Eldritch disciple build as well, and discovered that it doesn't work, because Eldritch disciple requires you to worship a diety. My DM was willing to do some fudge for alignment requirement(we all think they are kinda dumb). But the worshipping a diety, and trying to get in as a class that steals their power don't quite jive. And I wholy agreed.


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## Rajin_senretsu (Oct 3, 2019)

GentleButStrong said:


> This might be nearly ten years too late. But it is possible to use extreme cheesy goodness to be a Warlock 1 / Anima Mage 10 / Ur-priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 7



Wouldn't work. Specifically said must be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells for anima mage


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