# Gloom Stalker / Assassin: sick multiclass?



## Guest 6801328 (Aug 17, 2018)

(My apologies if this has been well discussed before.  Somebody asked for help with this build, but the math wasn't discussed.)

Gloom Stalker: 5
Assassin: 3
Using Hunter's Mark

Does this (potentially) do as much first-round damage as I think?  Let's talk the best case, that your opponent is surprised:

Melee:
Two weapon fighting
2 Attacks (Ranger 5), plus offhand.  
One more attack, that does an extra +1d8, from Dread Ambush
(If I were doing this I'd probably go variant Human and take Alert feat, for a total Initiative bonus of +11)

Let's say we're using shortswords because I hate rapiers
So that's 4 attacks doing 2d6 each (weapon plus Hunter's Mark), + 1d8 + 2d6 Sneak attack, all doubled, plus 4xAbility, which would be +4 at this point.
So 20d6 + 2d8 + 16 = (avg) 95, max of 152

Alternately, a bow build with Sharpshooter (variant Human) would get one less attack but do +10 on each attack.  That would be:

3 attacks doing 1d6 + 1d6 Hunter's Mark, plus 1d8 for Dread Ambusher, plus 2d6 Sneak Attack, all doubled, plus 3 * 10 for Sharpshooter, plus 3 * 4 for ability bonus = 16d6 + 2d8 + 30 + 12 = 107 (avg).  However, the -5 penalty with Sharpshooter means more misses.

Either way that seems like a pretty sick opening round from a level 8 character, without any magic items or buffs.  

Thoughts?

EDIT: Not really relevant, but if I actually did this I think my next six levels would Shadow Monk.  Super fun to BAMF! in and wreak havoc.


----------



## Yunru (Aug 17, 2018)

You can't dual weapon fight and Hunter's Mark. Both require your bonus action.


----------



## abs (Aug 17, 2018)

It only works during if you get surprise.  You can, technically, go first in combat and not have surprise.  As noted above, you can't Hunter's Mark and dual wield on the same turn.  I think the best you can do is: 16d6+2d8+12 with a short sword.  It's still a pretty good alpha strike.


----------



## Yunru (Aug 17, 2018)

abs said:


> It only works during if you get surprise.  You can, technically, go first in combat and not have surprise.  As noted above, you can't Hunter's Mark and dual wield on the same turn.  I think the best you can do is: 16d6+2d8+12 with a short sword.  It's still a pretty good alpha strike.




Although an Elven Samurai Archer is doing better two levels earlier


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Aug 17, 2018)

Yunru said:


> You can't dual weapon fight and Hunter's Mark. Both require your bonus action.




Excellent point.  So archery is way better for this build.


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 17, 2018)

I have yet to test it in play, but I came to the same conclusion: Gloom stalker 5 + assassin 3 = crazy alpha strikes.

Some further thoughts I've had tinkering with the build:


The archer build is generally superior. For one thing, it gives you a lot more flexibility setting up the alpha strike; you aren't constrained by your ability to physically close with the enemy in the first round. For another, as others have pointed out, your fighting style is not in conflict with _hunter's mark_ for your first-round bonus action.
However, _if_ your DM lets you cast _hunter's mark_ outside of combat, and doesn't rule that the verbal component breaks Stealth, the dual-wielding build offers higher damage.
_Pass without trace_ is your friend. You lose it when you cast _hunter's mark_, but it still gives you an incredible ability to set up the alpha strike, and keeps your clunky companions from spoiling the surprise.
After crunching the numbers, Sharpshooter is better than Alert for your bonus feat. You have advantage even if you lose initiative, mitigating the SS penalty, and the Archer fighting style helps as well. Even though the damage is not doubled, +30 still makes up for the attack penalty except against very high AC, and if you do blow the initiative roll, the Sharpshooter damage partly compensates for the loss of autocrits. Finally, you can deliver an alpha strike at up to 600 feet (though you sacrifice 6d6 of the damage if you're shooting from outside _hunter's mark_ range).


----------



## Ancalagon (Aug 17, 2018)

You can only sneak attack once on your turn.


----------



## CTurbo (Aug 17, 2018)

Gloom Stalker 5, Fighter 2, Assassin 3 Archer with Alert and longbow and Hunter's Mark

First round Attack, Attack, Attack, Action Surge, Attack, Attack, Attack. Add 1d6 to each attack for Hunter's Mark and 2d6 for sneak damage for one hit. 

Advantage on all attacks if the enemy hasn't gone yet, and auto crits if he's surprised. 

Dread Ambusher works again on action surge but sneak attack does not. 




Fighter 11, Gloom Stalker 3, Assassin 6 would get 8 attacks in first round with action surge.


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 17, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> You can only sneak attack once on your turn.




Yes. That is accounted for in the above calculations. If using a longbow:

First attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d8 (Dread Ambush) + 1d6 (_hunter's mark_) + 4 (Dex) = 2d8+1d6+4
Second attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d6 (_hunter's mark_) + 4 (Dex) = 1d8+1d6+4
Third attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d6 (_hunter's mark_) + 4 (Dex) = 1d8+1d6+4
Sneak attack 1/turn: 2d6

Total: 4d8+5d6+12
Doubling all dice from automatic crits: 8d8+10d6+12 (average 83 if all attacks hit)


----------



## BookBarbarian (Aug 17, 2018)

It's been brought up before, but it never hurts to talk about it again.

I think if your concept is "Ambusher" this is mechanically the best way to go about it.


----------



## Mort (Aug 17, 2018)

I think the moral of the story is that Assassin takes a class/build good for alpha striking and turns it a bit ridiculous!

Adding Assassin to a paladin build generates *really* high damage numbers (with the only real caveats being 1. it has to be a dex paladin and 2. it runs out of steam (smites) quick).


----------



## cooperjer (Aug 17, 2018)

A gloomstalker rogue with a long bow is a murder machine.  I have one in my AL games in Against the Giants.  First turn strikes are usually near 100 HP damage to a giant.  What do I do?  I add another giant to the encounter so the other players have something to do.  I might add the giant at the back to really add some pressure.  The character fears melee combat and is usually at the back of the line.


----------



## UngeheuerLich (Aug 17, 2018)

cooperjer said:


> A gloomstalker rogue with a long bow is a murder machine.  I have one in my AL games in Against the Giants.  First turn strikes are usually near 100 HP damage to a giant.  What do I do?  I add another giant to the encounter so the other players have something to do.  I might add the giant at the back to really add some pressure.  The character fears melee combat and is usually at the back of the line.




I am not sure this is how you reward playing well.
I think just making sure autosurprise is no option all the time makes it more rewarding.
Don´t forget we are talking about level 6 at least. A time when a wizard has fear or phantasmal force or a bard has hypnotic pattern or tasha´s hideous laughter. All spells that easily take out a giant with about the same accuracy.


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Aug 18, 2018)

Although ranged clearly dominates with this combo, I'm still loving the idea of the melee version.  Although I'm generally not a fan of multi-classing, in this case I'd love to some day play:
Gloom Stalker Ranger 4
Assassin Rogue 5
Shadow Monk 11

All I really want out of the Ranger is Dread Ambusher, so don't have to go past level 3 (Monk will get me 2nd attack)
Ranger also gives:
 - Umbral Sight (makes it easier to choose Human for an extra Feat)
 - Fighting style: I'd go with Dueling because Monk already gets Dex bonus to offhand
 - A few spell slots, including Disguise Self, isn't bad

It only _needs_ 3 levels of Rogue to get the alpha strike abilities, but 2 more levels gets you an ASI, an additional Sneak Attack die, and Uncanny Dodge, which is handy.

Monk in general gets you:
Flurry of Blows, for one more attack in the alpha strike
More movement
The ability to go unarmored and unarmed, which helps for surprising victims
Stunning strike, for more crits later in the fight
Shadow Monk gets you Bamf!, of course.
Going all the way to 11 gets both 1d8 damage die (so for a total of 5 attacks doing base 1d8 in the first round, wielding only a dagger in one hand), plus gets you the Shadow Monk's Invisibility.

From there it's either +1 Ranger or Monk to get an ASI, and a Ranger has a bigger hit die, so Ranger it is.

That's a total of 4 ASIs, plus a Feat at level 1.  I'd take Alert at 1st level, put two ASIs toward increasing Dex to 20, then choose two from among:
 - Lucky
 - Mobile (60' base movement, 70' in the first round)
 - Savage Attacker (all those attacks, all those dice...good insurance against really unlucky rolls.) 
 - +2 Wis (which would put Initiative at +13, and increase DC of Stunning Strike)

(Note that I could go Rogue 4/Monk 12 and get one more ASI, but I think I'd rather have Uncanny Dodge and +1d6 Sneak Attack damage)

So on a Surprise round this guy would get:
2 regular attacks doing 1d8 + 7
1 extra attack (Dread Ambusher) doing 2d8 + 7
2 martial arts attacks (Flurry) each doing 1d8 + 5
A sneak attack in there somewhere for 3d6
Doubling all the dice, that's 12d8 + 6d6 + 25 = average of 106...if I did that in my head correctly.  Probably more with Savage Attacker.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 18, 2018)

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but my reading of the 5e sneak attack ability is it doesn't work with unarmed attacks, including monk attacks.


----------



## jgsugden (Aug 18, 2018)

While this is a fun idea, all it takes is one obnoxious dwarf in full plate to ruin any chance at surprise...


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Aug 18, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but my reading of the 5e sneak attack ability is it doesn't work with unarmed attacks, including monk attacks.




That's ok: with a dagger in one hand you use your Sneak Attack with one of those attacks.

It does occur to me that a straight up Assassin, at levels 17 and up, still has a (potentially*) vastly better alpha strike than any of these multiclasses.  Not as much fun, maybe, but more damage.  11d6 doubled, then Dex added, then doubled _again_.

*It does require a failed saving throw.   Almost worth dipping two levels in Wizard for Portent.


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 18, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> That's ok: with a dagger in one hand you use your Sneak Attack with one of those attacks.
> 
> It does occur to me that a straight up Assassin, at levels 17 and up, still has a (potentially*) vastly better alpha strike than any of these multiclasses.  Not as much fun, maybe, but more damage.  11d6 doubled, then Dex added, then doubled _again_.
> 
> *It does require a failed saving throw.   Almost worth dipping two levels in Wizard for Portent.




The saving throw requirement is the biggest problem. The value of a devastating alpha strike is to wreck the big boss monster at the start of combat... and big boss monsters are apt to be legendary, especially at 17th level, which means they can shut you down hard. Plus, it's a Con save, which high-level boss monsters are generally quite good at.

But even setting that aside, you actually don't gain much. Let's try a 17th-level gloom stalker build: Ranger 5, fighter 2, rogue 10. Using Action Surge:

First attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d8 (Dread Ambush) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 2d8+1d6+5
Second attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 1d8+1d6+5
Third attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 1d8+1d6+5
Fourth attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d8 (Dread Ambush) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 2d8+1d6+5
Fifth attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 1d8+1d6+5
Sixth attack: 1d8 (base) + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex) = 1d8+1d6+5
Sneak attack 1/turn: 5d6

Total: 8d8+11d6+30
Doubling all dice from automatic crits: 16d8+22d6+30 (average 179)

The assassin, meanwhile, gets 2d6 (dual shortswords) + 11d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex). Doubling all dice from autocrits, that's 26d6+5, averaging 96. Doubling that is 192 average damage, a mere 7% gain. And it doesn't come online until 17th level, where the gloom stalker has been wrecking bosses since level 8.

Of course, this is assuming all attacks hit and the target fails its Con save; I haven't yet run the math on how those failure chances affect the total, but I think it favors the gloom stalker.


----------



## UngeheuerLich (Aug 18, 2018)

jgsugden said:


> While this is a fun idea, all it takes is one obnoxious dwarf in full plate to ruin any chance at surprise...




Pass without trace is not bad at giving even the dwarf baseline competence.
With 8 Dex you always still roll at least 10. Even with disadvantage you can hope not to alert everyone. And you can then always rush ahead. I really like the idea of shadow monk, gloom stalker, assassin. But you can also do it with straight gloomstalker/assassin.


----------



## jgsugden (Aug 18, 2018)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Pass without trace is not bad at giving even the dwarf baseline competence.
> With 8 Dex you always still roll at least 10. Even with disadvantage you can hope not to alert everyone. And you can then always rush ahead. I really like the idea of shadow monk, gloom stalker, assassin. But you can also do it with straight gloomstalker/assassin.



If you have access, it can be useful.... if the fighter does not charge in screaming anyways...


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Aug 18, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> The saving throw requirement is the biggest problem. The value of a devastating alpha strike is to wreck the big boss monster at the start of combat... and big boss monsters are apt to be legendary, especially at 17th level, which means they can shut you down hard. Plus, it's a Con save, which high-level boss monsters are generally quite good at.
> 
> But even setting that aside, you actually don't gain much. Let's try a 17th-level gloom stalker build: Ranger 5, fighter 2, rogue 10. Using Action Surge:
> 
> ...




On the other hand, the Fighter mix can do that once per rest.  The Gloomstalker/Assassin or Assassin can do it all day long.  (The Monk blend is limited by Ki, but can still pull off quite a few alpha strikes.)


----------

