# Eldritch Glaive: too good?



## Egres (Apr 12, 2007)

This invocation can be found in Dragon Magic, and it basically changes your eldritch balse into a melee reach weapon that you can use to make multiple touch attacks based on your bab.

Considering that the EB basically follows the sneak attack progression, doesn't it replicate a permanent Wraithstrike for the Warlock?

In other words, with this invocation a Warlock can be compared to a rogue of the same level with a permanent wraithstrike, dealing the equivalent of a sneak attack damage with touch attacks.


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## IanB (Apr 12, 2007)

It is awfully strong. Unlike wraithstrike, the attacks are at least subject to spell resistance though. The warlock isn't exactly the pinnacle of survivability in close combat, so there's that as well. Still, very very strong. I haven't seen it extensively in play so I would have to reserve judgement a little bit, but my expectation is that it would prove to be broken.

Maybe not broken on the Tome of Battle balance scale though?


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## Egres (Apr 12, 2007)

IanB said:
			
		

> It is awfully strong. Unlike wraithstrike, the attacks are at least subject to spell resistance though.



But not to DR, that is commonly more widespread.

Not to mention that there are many ways to get around the sneak attack, but not the same number of ways to get around Eldritch Glaive damage.



> The warlock isn't exactly the pinnacle of survivability in close combat, so there's that as well.



But he's surely better than the rogue.

Flee the scene and fly away if something goes bad.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 12, 2007)

Doesn't it take a full-round action to attack with the Eldritch Glaive, even if you only have BAB +5 (or lower)?  Or am I remembering this wrong.  If so, it would prevent charges and move + attacks...


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## James McMurray (Apr 12, 2007)

Are there any of the multiclassing feats that let you combine another class's levels to increase your Eldritch Blast damage? If not my first thought on this (without having read the invocation) is that it's scary sounding, but warlocks are too fragile to make it work well.


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## Nonlethal Force (Apr 12, 2007)

I suppose, but a warlock is not exactly the pinnacle of power.  Besides, I'd be more concerned about and eldritch spear, wouldn't you?  250 feet with no increment means that the warlock can attack and move back several times before the enemy can get to him (without the use of magical teleportation).  Eldritch glaive requires the opponents to draw atytacks of opportunity.  No AoO and eldritch glaive is worse than hideous blow.

Besides, it EG makes your EB a reach weapon, then technically you've got to move away from an opponent beside you in order to use it.  Move more than 5 feet and they get an AoO on the warlock!


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## Nonlethal Force (Apr 12, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Doesn't it take a full-round action to attack with the Eldritch Glaive, even if you only have BAB +5 (or lower)?  Or am I remembering this wrong.  If so, it would prevent charges and move + attacks...




It is a full round action, but it allows you to use itteratives.  And, it also allows you to take AoO.  But yes, you cannot move and attack as in the typical  Spring Attack pattern.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 12, 2007)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> I suppose, but a warlock is not exactly the pinnacle of power.  Besides, I'd be more concerned about and eldritch spear, wouldn't you?  250 feet with no increment means that the warlock can attack and move back several times before the enemy can get to him (without the use of magical teleportation).  Eldritch glaive requires the opponents to draw atytacks of opportunity.  No AoO and eldritch glaive is worse than hideous blow.
> 
> Besides, it EG makes your EB a reach weapon, then technically you've got to move away from an opponent beside you in order to use it.  Move more than 5 feet and they get an AoO on the warlock!



 It isn't worse than Hideous Blow even if you get no AoOs because Hideous Blow does not allow iteratives.


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## James McMurray (Apr 12, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> It isn't worse than Hideous Blow even if you get no AoOs because Hideous Blow does not allow iteratives.




If it's always a full round action then it's worse than Eldritch Blow in all sorts of situations, especially if you haven't yet gotten iterative attacks because you have a 1/2 BAB.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 12, 2007)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> If it's always a full round action then it's worse than Eldritch Blow in all sorts of situations, especially if you haven't yet gotten iterative attacks because you have a 1/2 BAB.



 If you don't have iteratives, you don't take Glaive.  If you have, though, and you're in a situation where you can't use Glaive, you really don't want to be using Hideous Blow either and are almost certainly better off with just firing a normal blast.  Also, book not with me now, but isn't Hideous Blow a non-touch attack that also adds the weapon damage to the EB damage?  If so, that makes it worse than Glaive yet again.


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## IanB (Apr 12, 2007)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> If it's always a full round action then it's worse than Eldritch Blow in all sorts of situations, especially if you haven't yet gotten iterative attacks because you have a 1/2 BAB.




Warlocks are 3/4 BAB.

EDIT: And yes, Hideous Blow is not a touch attack.

It should also be noted that at least you can't power attack with eldritch glaive, I don't think. Hopefully.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 12, 2007)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> It is a full round action, but it allows you to use itteratives.  And, it also allows you to take AoO.  But yes, you cannot move and attack as in the typical  Spring Attack pattern.




Not just Spring Attack, but during the typical "I use my Move Action to move 30 feet up to the opponent and use my Standard Action to attack him" type of scenario.


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## Egres (Apr 12, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Not just Spring Attack, but during the typical "I use my Move Action to move 30 feet up to the opponent and use my Standard Action to attack him" type of scenario.



Warlocks don't need that scenario.

They can just blast from distance.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 12, 2007)

Egres said:
			
		

> Warlocks don't need that scenario.
> 
> They can just blast from distance.




If that is the case, there would be no reason to take Eldritch Glaive.  I am talking about a Warlock that specifically took Eldritch Glaive, and took feats specifically to augment it.  Besides, they would still get a penalty for firing their blast into melee or around soft cover, a melee Warlock wouldn't.


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## Raspen (Apr 12, 2007)

I play a melee worloc in a epic campain

that invocation is very good and makes my guy more powerfull by far but it is limited.  Because of movement and i find that i have a hard time getting into combat and useing it unless something comes to me.  As far as useing it with other invocations if you use greater invs. or shadows the attack becomes a flat-footed touch attack.  if you combine it wild the acid blast then you can get around SR if you add the udderdark effect then you do -2 lvl per hit (up to -6 lvl at my lvl) Haste gives you another attack that can up your damage as well and if you use maximize spell-like ability then you could do some crazy damage in one round given the fact that every attack is just one spell.  since your invs or shadowed they have 50% miss chance on you if you are smart and get devils own luck,  ignor the pry and other defence abilitys then you will be much better off aginst spells. adding feats like force of personality helps as well.  because you dont have to buy weopens you can focuse on AC gear and if you get mith armor you can where med or heavey armor (battle caster feat) if you so like.

but all that said unless you have some get out of jail free card if you get jumped damaged good then the game is over a warloc cant cast anything once he is damaged enought.

Do i think the glaive is fair....................? Yes  its hard to use if your DM gives you any kind of chalange you will find yourself blasting much more then useing the glaive and tho you can get a jump on a char if your close to them you might find that letting the fighter upset them befor you get in thier is much smarter.

What isnt fair is Greater Invis All the time or Word of Changeing.  even Flee the Seen can be abused.  but after playing with the glaive i dont think its that bad


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## James McMurray (Apr 12, 2007)

IanB said:
			
		

> Warlocks are 3/4 BAB.




Oops. Still though, with only the information I've seen in this thread it doesn't sound too broken to me.


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 12, 2007)

What level invocation is Eldritch Glaive?  That hasn't been mentioned, and it makes a difference.


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## UltimaGabe (Apr 12, 2007)

Having never seen the Eldritch Glaive invocation in play, I can only offer my observations of the invocation's description and this topic. At first, it looks godly powerful. A Warlock being able to make multiple attacks, each touch attacks, and dealing Eldritch Blast damage? Don't mind if I do!

However, upon further inspection, it's powerful, yes- but the reason it doesn't seem TOO powerful is because of how hard it is to use, realistically. First off, it's a full-round action- meaning in order to use it, you have to start off with an enemy within your reach (or within 5 feet of it, with a 5 foot step)- so unless you're starting off right up in the enemy's face (which is never a good place for a Warlock to begin with), you aren't going to be able to use the feat. Not only that, but sure, it looks awesome when you compare it to a Rogue getting sneak attacks on every attack with Wraithstrike- but, if you recall, Eldritch blast has ALWAYS been a touch attack, and it has ALWAYS done the same amount of damage as it currently does. And yet, nobody's complained about the Warlock being able to blast from 250 feet away. How many rogues can get a sneak attack, even one per round, from 250 feet away? None of them. And yet that wasn't an issue before.

So, anyway, like I said, the invocation looks hella powerful- but in order to use it, you have to be in quite an unadvantageous position to begin with, which can limit its power significantly. True, Rogues don't have all of the advantages that Eldritch Glaive gives a Warlock, but then again, Rogues do more than sneak attack, right? (I'm talking about skills, Evasion, Trapfinding, etc.)

It seems to me that all Eldritch Glaive really is is a way for a Warlock to finally be a competent damage dealer. Nobody's complaining about the Sorcerer being able to shoot off Scorching Rays that blast everyone to kingdom come from a range, or the Wizard firing off quickened Fireballs or whatnot. The Warlock is still just as limited in all of his abilities as before- the only difference is that now, there's a somewhat possible option of being somewhat competent damage-wise.


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## pawsplay (Apr 13, 2007)

I can't see how it would begin to touch a Duskblade's multiple attack/spell ability.


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## Vysirez (Apr 13, 2007)

Eldritch Glaive is pretty good. I think it can be fairly strong at higher levels, like UltimateGabe said, it's not just the extra damage, you can also add an essence to it. So get boots of speed and give some 8 negative levels and say 32d6 damage no save. Pretty nice IMO. Course that combo is only available at high levels, and lots of classes can do nasty things at 15+, so I wouldnt say it's broken. Also compare Eldritch Glaive with say chain or cone blast shapes, it's more of a spread the damage vs focusing on one target thing.

As far as the arguement that it takes a FRA, like thats some kind of cost or penalty, the majority of the time someone wants to get iterative attacks it takes a FRA. So on the round a warlock has to move up he just gets a normal blast. The fighter who moves up gets a single attack. It's basically the same thing as far as I can tell.

My experiences with the warlock class in play was a campaign that went up to about 12 or so. The player running the warlock was fairly experienced and knows how to build effective characters. I didnt find the warlock to be especially strong. So I have to say I wouldnt have a problem with Eldritch Glaive. If I was DMing I might make a few rulings/house rules on how stuff like Maximize SLA interacts with Glaive to curb abuses.


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## brehobit (Apr 13, 2007)

I will have to look into this for the warlock PC in my game.  It seems a bit powerful, but maybe...

As far as a warlock being a poor HTH warrior, I'll again point out the awesome power of the fey feats for a warlock...  Wow, does that build a tank (until some big-damage bad guy gets a crit of course.  That hurts...)


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## Cactot (Apr 13, 2007)

which fey feats are you talking about exactly?


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## monboesen (Apr 13, 2007)

The real abuse would be a gestalt Fighter/Warlock with Eldritch Glaive.

Ouch


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## hong (Apr 13, 2007)

Egres said:
			
		

> This invocation can be found in Dragon Magic, and it basically changes your eldritch balse into a melee reach weapon that you can use to make multiple touch attacks based on your bab.




You can touch my eldritch balls when you pry them out of my cold, dead fingers. HA!


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## brehobit (Apr 13, 2007)

Cactot said:
			
		

> which fey feats are you talking about exactly?



I think they are in complete mage (either that or PHBII).  By 9th level a human would get 6 spells a day (one 5th level!) a few misc bonuses, and DR 5/cold iron that stacks with a warlock's DR.  The warlock in my game is walking around with DR 6/cold iron I believe (level 7).

DR is not the same as AC.  Very powerful against mooks.  Less powerful against non-mooks or 3x crits.  But DR helps a LOT.  The warlock is the only one to make it to level 7.  Everyone else died or retired.

They are a bit overpowered (maybe a lot from levels 6 to 12 or so) but eat up all of your feats.

Mark


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## kigmatzomat (Apr 13, 2007)

Eldritch Glaive is a Greater Invoc, IIRC.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 13, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> I think they are in complete mage (either that or PHBII).  By 9th level a human would get 6 spells a day (one 5th level!) a few misc bonuses, and DR 5/cold iron that stacks with a warlock's DR.  The warlock in my game is walking around with DR 6/cold iron I believe (level 7).
> 
> DR is not the same as AC.  Very powerful against mooks.  Less powerful against non-mooks or 3x crits.  But DR helps a LOT.  The warlock is the only one to make it to level 7.  Everyone else died or retired.
> 
> ...



 I believe that by RAW, the Warlock only receives 4 DR from the feats--specifically, Fey Skin gives 1 DR for each feat with Fey Blood as a prerequisite (but not Fey Blood itself)  To get 5, you must be counting Fey Blood, but it doesn't have Fey Blood as a prerequisite.  If you think the Fey feats are a good DR combo, try the Abyssal heritor feats from FCI--there's one that gives 1 DR for each Abyssal Heritor feat and another that gives +1 natural armour, and +1 more for every two Abyssal Heritor feats, plus another that gives a +1 insight bonus to one type of thing for every two Abyssal Heritor feats, etc.


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## pallandrome (Apr 13, 2007)

...*looks through books* What the heck is FCI? Not that I'ma plan on making a Warlock now or anything >.>


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 13, 2007)

pallandrome said:
			
		

> ...*looks through books* What the heck is FCI? Not that I'ma plan on making a Warlock now or anything >.>



 Fiendish Codex I.  It's not just for Warlocks! (I was playing in a game with feats every level, and I was going to make some kind of scrapper with all the FCI feats, but I didn't roll well enough to qualify for all of them, so I'm running a Warlock with the Fey feats and hopefully lots and lots of Extra Invocations)


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## brehobit (Apr 14, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I believe that by RAW, the Warlock only receives 4 DR from the feats--specifically, Fey Skin gives 1 DR for each feat with Fey Blood as a prerequisite (but not Fey Blood itself)  To get 5, you must be counting Fey Blood, but it doesn't have Fey Blood as a prerequisite.  If you think the Fey feats are a good DR combo, try the Abyssal heritor feats from FCI--there's one that gives 1 DR for each Abyssal Heritor feat and another that gives +1 natural armour, and +1 more for every two Abyssal Heritor feats, plus another that gives a +1 insight bonus to one type of thing for every two Abyssal Heritor feats, etc.




Well, the Fey skin feat is 1+1 per feat you have with fey blood as a prereq.  So that gets you to +5 with the other 3 feats.

Humm, the Abyssal horror sounds pretty huge, but getting Confusion, Dimension Door, SNA V, Charm Monster, Deep Slumber and Disguise self (each 1/day) isn't too shabby.

Mark


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 14, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> Well, the Fey skin feat is 1+1 per feat you have with fey blood as a prereq.  So that gets you to +5 with the other 3 feats.
> 
> Humm, the Abyssal horror sounds pretty huge, but getting Confusion, Dimension Door, SNA V, Charm Monster, Deep Slumber and Disguise self (each 1/day) isn't too shabby.
> 
> Mark



 Oh, you're right--I'm going to go give my lock 1 more DR!


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## Egres (Apr 14, 2007)

kigmatzomat said:
			
		

> Eldritch Glaive is a Greater Invoc, IIRC.



It's a Lesser Invocation.


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## Raspen (Apr 14, 2007)

20th lvl warloc Eld Glaivex3  27-162 damage 
20th lvl Wiz/Sor Poler Ray and Quick Vamp Touch 30-180 + Temp HP
20th lvl Fighter 7 Attacks (range will be diff per figher but will say 1d8+10 and add WS to hit) 77-126
20th lvl Monk ..........

you know what i realy dont what to figure out any more point is that everything deals about the same damage as far as broken goes i dont think its that bad off the only thing that makes it nice is DR dont aply to it 8)

hell take an incantrix lvl 20 doing a Polor ray sudden maxed and split and then (class sudden a quicken polor ray for 240+(20-120) with no save.

what where we talking about beeing broken agin?


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## Egres (Apr 14, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> 20th lvl warloc Eld Glaivex3  27-162 damage
> 20th lvl Wiz/Sor Poler Ray and Quick Vamp Touch 30-180 + Temp HP
> 20th lvl Fighter 7 Attacks (range will be diff per figher but will say 1d8+10 and add WS to hit) 77-126
> 20th lvl Monk ..........
> ...



The fact that there are other examples of brokeness doesn't mean that this particular invocation isn't broken, especially if compared to the other invocations.

Not to mention that the damage output of the fighter isn't comparable, since we are talking about touch attacks here.

Why didn't you compare the Warlock with the rogue?

Same bab, same hit die, and so on?

Finally,let me underline that I started the thread asking if it wasn't "too good", not "broken".


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## PallidPatience (Apr 14, 2007)

Meh. Warlocks have to spend a feat to wear even medium armor (and two to not get spell failure in it). They don't get bonus feats. They only have d6 HD, and 3/4 BAB. Every round he spends doing this, he spends not doing things like Word of Changing, Tenacious Plague, Wall of Perilous Flame and the like. It's not so bad.


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## Raspen (Apr 14, 2007)

Too good-Broken ? i wasnt attacking anything  just showing that the classes can balance out.

as far as Rogue goes never felt a rogue was made for damage but if i was going to....3 attacks doing say... 1d6+5+(7d6+ Impeding attack -2str -2dex)+Crippling strike -2str + 2 more attacks at 11d6+5

lets see thats. 46-195 damage +6str damage and -2str -2dex penality only takes a Greater invs to get all sneak attacks and doing str damage every one well sometimes its easer to defeat people over killing them

still dont think that the glaive is *too good*

only thing that i would say about it is if you use Max spell like ability it might be a bit cheap


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## James McMurray (Apr 14, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> as far as Rogue goes never felt a rogue was made for damage




Not to derail the thread, but HUH?!?!?!?!? TWF rogues are damage machines.


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## Egres (Apr 15, 2007)

PallidPatience said:
			
		

> Meh. Warlocks have to spend a feat to wear even medium armor (and two to not get spell failure in it).



Just like a rogue.



> They don't get bonus feats.



Just like a rogue, if we don't consider the special features he can substitue with a feat. (I've never heard of a rogue taking feats with them however)



> They only have d6 HD, and 3/4 BAB.



Just like a rogue, except his attacks are all touch attacks.



> Every round he spends doing this, he spends not doing things like Word of Changing, Tenacious Plague, Wall of Perilous Flame and the like.



Every round a rogue is not attacking he's...fleeing?


> as far as Rogue goes never felt a rogue was made for damage but if i was going to....3 attacks doing say... 1d6+5+(7d6+ Impeding attack -2str -2dex)+Crippling strike -2str + 2 more attacks at 11d6+5



Unfortunately rogue's attacks aren't touch attacks.


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## brehobit (Apr 15, 2007)

Egres said:
			
		

> It's a Lesser Invocation.



As I recall it is a least.  Further I believe the example indicates that a warlock has a 1/2 BAB rather than 3/4 BAB.  Very odd.  

Mark


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## brehobit (Apr 15, 2007)

Actually, it has some interesting limitations I'd not noticed.

I believe:
* You have to cast defensively to use this (assume you are threatened, and you are).  This means you are either burning a feat or you have a chance of failure until around 10th level, and that's assuming a 14 CON and no essence modifications to pull it above 1st level.  Casting defensively will help of course. 
* You have to use a full-round action.  Not really _that_ big of a deal, but you can't use it for AoO unless you do that.

I think I'll allow the warlock in my game to take it as a lesser invocation.  

Mark


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## Egres (Apr 15, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> * You have to cast defensively to use this (assume you are threatened, and you are).  This means you are either burning a feat or you have a chance of failure until around 10th level, and that's assuming a 14 CON and no essence modifications to pull it above 1st level.  Casting defensively will help of course.



Why should I be threatened?

The glaive has reach, and I can invoke it and the make a 5 ft step.


> * You have to use a full-round action.  Not really _that_ big of a deal, but you can't use it for AoO unless you do that.



Why bother spending a full round action if I don't have multiple bab attacks?

Until 8th level I can simply blast from distance.

After 8th level, if you want to make multiple attacks you are forced to use a full round action, no matter if you are using EG or not: as you said, not really a big deal.


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## Raspen (Apr 15, 2007)

after getting Hit with my warloc im useless for one round if i try to back away then i dont get to use my glaive the next round.  if i stand thier and wait then thier is a good chance ill be hit agin.

my only real option is magic items ..... wands perhaps.  and what if i dont have anything that works as a get out of jail free card?  like all casters once hit ... hard to recover.

Warloc is a caster. and Range is a casters best friend


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## Egres (Apr 15, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> after getting Hit with my warloc im useless for one round if i try to back away then i dont get to use my glaive the next round.  if i stand thier and wait then thier is a good chance ill be hit agin.
> 
> my only real option is magic items ..... wands perhaps.  and what if i dont have anything that works as a get out of jail free card?  like all casters once hit ... hard to recover.
> 
> Warloc is a caster. and Range is a casters best friend



By your reasoning a rogue should never enter in melee, since he has even less options to defend himself than the warlock.

Just let me underline that with eldritch glaive you can fly over your opponent and attack him from 10ft height: if your opponent doesn't fly or doesn't have reach he can't full attack you.


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## Blue (Apr 15, 2007)

Consider also that you don't get to use a magic weapon along with it, which would give a number of bonuses.  A rogue could be using two weapon fighting (to deliver more attacks).

Cheers,
=Blue(23)


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## brehobit (Apr 15, 2007)

Egres said:
			
		

> Why should I be threatened?
> 
> The glaive has reach, and I can invoke it and the make a 5 ft step.



Ah, I missed the reach part.  That's the problem with going off of an on-line report of the ability...



> Why bother spending a full round action if I don't have multiple bab attacks?
> Until 8th level I can simply blast from distance.
> After 8th level, if you want to make multiple attacks you are forced to use a full round action, no matter if you are using EG or not: as you said, not really a big deal.



Again, because you might want the AoO.  Now that I see it has reach, I'd think that would come up even more often.  

Also, having the ability be a "reach" weapon means you _can't_ use it when things are next to you, right?  That could be painful when you can't take a 5' step away (or really don't want to).  

Interesting.  Probably over powered for a least invocation, but interesting.  Still bothers me that whoever wrote that up thought that warlocks had a 1/2 BAB *and *no one noticed...

Mark


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## brehobit (Apr 15, 2007)

Blue said:
			
		

> Consider also that you don't get to use a magic weapon along with it, which would give a number of bonuses.  A rogue could be using two weapon fighting (to deliver more attacks).
> 
> Cheers,
> =Blue(23)



Yeah, but touch attack wins all...  

Mark


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