# Mike Schley's MASSIVE Forgotten Realms Map From SCAG!



## ad_hoc (Oct 27, 2015)

Only $7500 to go!

http://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donorDrive.team&teamID=21011


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## Barachiel (Oct 27, 2015)

That's just half of Faerun. I was hoping for a World Map. We'll never see an official one of those I guess. But I guess that would require a Toril book...which we will never see. *sigh*


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## Parmandur (Oct 27, 2015)

That seems to shoe more than what was leaked from the book; unless the leak was truncated, which is interesting...


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## JohnLynch (Oct 27, 2015)

Just got a copy for myself. I know many will be unhappy with "needing" to pay for such a big map when in the past maps were provided in digital format for free. I don't know of any map that has quite this resolution though. It's very big. A few oddities (cities aren't marked in Cormyr but are labelled). But otherwise pretty damn good.


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## EthanSental (Oct 27, 2015)

I bought it and plan to print it via vistaprint into a large poster.  Mike was extremely helpful with a prior purchase I made from his site, which I very much appreciated!


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## Tyranthraxus (Oct 27, 2015)

What I dont get re his site is why you only get a set time to download what you paid for.  Its always confused me.  So if you purchase something and forget for a while to download it, you no longer can


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## chibi graz'zt (Oct 27, 2015)

Downloaded these, stunning in detail. I see that the PDF is quite large, 66 pages. Any reason that it's not bookmarked for easier navigation??


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## TailleferTheWise (Oct 27, 2015)

Printing this out full size would take over 160 8.5"x11" sheets.


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## pukunui (Oct 27, 2015)

Parmandur said:


> That seems to shoe more than what was leaked from the book; unless the leak was truncated, which is interesting...



It's a landscape format map that was cropped to fit onto a portrait format page. So yes, this map includes more to the east and west than what's in the book.


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## Tyranthraxus (Oct 27, 2015)

ANd then you would something have to put it together so it looked good. Not to mention porting it around (No idea how to do that. Also maps you put together like that dont tend to last.


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## pukunui (Oct 27, 2015)

Barachiel said:


> That's just half of Faerun. I was hoping for a World Map. We'll never see an official one of those I guess. But I guess that would require a Toril book...which we will never see. *sigh*



I dunno. Looking at the edges of the map, I get the impression that Mike has actually put together even more than what's in this expanded map. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's at least done a basic outline of the whole of Faerûn for future reference. All his maps line up so nicely, it seems hard to believe that he'd do each one from scratch. I think he must have an even more massive template than what's been published.


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## MonsterEnvy (Oct 27, 2015)

Looking at the map. It appears that Many Arrrows is back again.


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## pukunui (Oct 27, 2015)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Looking at the map. It appears that Many Arrrows is back again.



What do you mean by "back again"? Did it go somewhere? The orcs you encounter in _Lost Mine of Phandelver_ are said to be from the Kingdom of Many Arrows.


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## Mistwell (Oct 27, 2015)

Barachiel said:


> That's just half of Faerun. I was hoping for a World Map. We'll never see an official one of those I guess. But I guess that would require a Toril book...which we will never see. *sigh*


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## MonsterEnvy (Oct 27, 2015)

During the events of the latest Forgotten Realms novels. The Drow wanting to get back at the Dwarves of the Silver Marches for defeating them in the past. Attempted to have Many Arrows fight the War for them. Obould XVIII the current king was not keen on the idea. The Drow responded to this by having him poisoned at a feast and framing his eldest son, heir and fellow moderate Lorgru for the crime. Resulting in Lorgru's exile. They then aided in putting a warmongering puppet named Hartusk in charge. The Orcs had good results for a while but eventually made too many mistakes and the Dwarf holds banded together to defeat them and the Drow. Lorgru eventually returned from his exile and took his throne back and aided in defeating Hartusk. The Dwarves however refused Lorgru's attempts to sue for peace and forced him and his followers out of the silver marches. 

It's better if you just read Archmages sample chapter which features the meeting with Lorgru after they won the war.


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## pukunui (Oct 27, 2015)

Ah well, I guess the SCAG doesn't take any of that into account, so you can either have it be there or not there, depending on whether or not you want to include what happens in the novels in your D&D campaign.


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## MonsterEnvy (Oct 27, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Ah well, I guess the SCAG doesn't take any of that into account, so you can either have it be there or not there, depending on whether or not you want to include what happens in the novels in your D&D campaign.




The implied year for SCAG is 1489 or 1490. The events I just described happened in 1486 so it's possible it could have risen again. Given that it is on the map it will probably get a paragraph or two in the book.


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## Blackwarder (Oct 27, 2015)

I don't think that many arrows disappeared, I think they were just pushed back deeper into the mountains.
You can see that many arrow keep disappeared from the map.

Am I the only one that wants a forgotten realms atlas app for the iPad and PC?

Warder


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## pukunui (Oct 27, 2015)

Blackwarder said:


> Am I the only one that wants a forgotten realms atlas app for the iPad and PC?



That would rock! I still make use of my old 2e era FR atlas. An updated version would be fantastic.


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## Blackwarder (Oct 27, 2015)

pukunui said:


> That would rock! I still make use of my old 2e era FR atlas. An updated version would be fantastic.




I want a version where i can turn on and off weather patterns, trade routs, mining and resource information, zoom in on cities, demographics, the ability to drop pins with costum information, and being able to add to it, for example, I'll be willing to buy a DLC with all of the maps for ToD or PotA, or OotA.
As much as I want a physical setting book for FR I think that by the year 2015 a living birthing electronic atlas is a much better choice.

Warder


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## LapBandit (Oct 27, 2015)

I bought it.  Some of the roads arent where they are supposed to be.   Also when did Anauroch get so big?


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## pukunui (Oct 27, 2015)

Us said:


> Some of the roads arent where they are supposed to be.



In relation to what?



> Also when did Anauroch get so big?



Since the Netherese came back and started mucking about with the environment again?


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## Chimpy (Oct 27, 2015)

This map looks amazing. I'll definitely pop over and buy it when I get a chance.

I don't mind paying the artist a small amount for it at all. It helps the industry.


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## HonorBoundSamurai632 (Oct 27, 2015)

Has anyone bought the digital version? Does it come with a full size version of the map, or is it all divided into those smaller maps? $136 for the 24x30 print version is ridiculous. I know many are going to defend this, and I am all for supporting these artists, but that is insane! I suppose I'll have to buy the digital version and take it to Office Max like I have his City of Greyhawk map.

$136 ..... wow! Just ....... wow!


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## Pseudonym (Oct 27, 2015)

HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> $136 for the 24x30 print version is ridiculous. I know many are going to defend this, and I am all for supporting these artists, but that is insane!




20"x30" is $78. Quite the price jump to go to 24"x36". I don't really know much about the printing industry. Does moving to that scale require a special printer or other equipment?


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## DM_Jeff (Oct 27, 2015)

I got the digital version, and you get both - a JPEG full sized, and a PDF with a full-sized page and then all tiled. The prices for the printed maps are a bit high. I got the digital one because I've been taking Mike's maps to Staples and can get 24x36 posters on great stock for about $30.

Also check yer email - Mike sent out a 15% off coupon for those who've made purchases from him before.


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## Wulfang (Oct 27, 2015)

I feel your pain.

I usually do the same with the digital version because his prices for Print versions are astronomical. And that doesn't even include Shipping and the terrible conversion rate due to low Canadian dollar. Nobody in Canada can afford those prints.

I can bring it to a local place and get it printed (and laminated) or on vinyl for 1/3 the price.


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## CM (Oct 27, 2015)

Now I'm pondering an overlay for the JPG that adds hexes in one layer, and the smaller towns and ruins from the volo's guides and other older sources on another.


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## pming (Oct 27, 2015)

Hiya!



JohnLynch said:


> Just got a copy for myself. I know many will be unhappy with "needing" to pay for such a big map when in the past maps were provided in digital format for free. *I don't know of any map that has quite this resolution though.* It's very big. A few oddities (cities aren't marked in Cormyr but are labelled). But otherwise pretty damn good.




Bolded... if you're talking FR only. I think you are right. FR fans are gonna love this! 

But, if you mean "any" D&D campaign setting... I'm afraid us Greyhawkers have a wonderful cartographer who goes by the name of Anna B. Meyer. She's made a map of the Flanaes (GH's core stomping ground), all _*absolutely FREE*_. Here is a list to the "big multi-page'er. Each of those squares is 3000px (or, 10" x 10" @ 300dpi). http://ghmaps.net/greyhawk-maps/flanaess-3000-pixel-squares/ Yeah, that means it would print out at somewhere around 100"x80" or so...a "bit" bigger than 36"x24".  I suppose you could print it at 600dpi...but that'd still make it an extra-large map of 50"x40" or so. One of these days (maybe next year, tax returns!  ) I'm gonna have to print these out as 10"x10" sheets, put them together, and get them laminated. That'd make an *amazing* wall mural! :drool:

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Jeff Carlsen (Oct 27, 2015)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





They may actually be closer to equal from a scale perspective, as this map is just the northwest corner of Ferun.


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## smiteworks (Oct 27, 2015)

Blackwarder said:


> I want a version where i can turn on and off weather patterns, trade routs, mining and resource information, zoom in on cities, demographics, the ability to drop pins with costum information, and being able to add to it, for example, I'll be willing to buy a DLC with all of the maps for ToD or PotA, or OotA.
> As much as I want a physical setting book for FR I think that by the year 2015 a living birthing electronic atlas is a much better choice.
> 
> Warder




The Fantasy Grounds version has push-pins that bring up detailed information about locations on the maps. These might include additional maps of the cities and background information that you can further enhance as needed. 

The release date for that won't be until 11/3 to coincide with the general release of the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide though.


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## jgsugden (Oct 27, 2015)

It'd be great if WotC put maps like this up on their site and allowed people to log in and "pin" where their adventuring party is.... allowing DMs running games in similar areas to reach out and discuss ideas....


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## pukunui (Oct 27, 2015)

Just FYI: I asked Mike on Twitter why some of the cities didn't have markers (the black dots), and he said it looked like they'd been accidentally left off, so he's going to put up a corrected version.


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## Blackwarder (Oct 27, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> The Fantasy Grounds version has push-pins that bring up detailed information about locations on the maps. These might include additional maps of the cities and background information that you can further enhance as needed.
> 
> The release date for that won't be until 11/3 to coincide with the general release of the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide though.




When could I get it on my iPad????????????? 

Warder


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## darjr (Oct 27, 2015)

Yea, could I purchase just that bit to start?


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## Hutchimus Prime (Oct 27, 2015)

Blackwarder said:


> I want a version where i can turn on and off weather patterns, trade routs, mining and resource information, zoom in on cities, demographics, the ability to drop pins with costum information, and being able to add to it, for example, I'll be willing to buy a DLC with all of the maps for ToD or PotA, or OotA.
> As much as I want a physical setting book for FR I think that by the year 2015 a living birthing electronic atlas is a much better choice.
> 
> Warder




That would be very cool. I'd buy that for a dollar.


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## dave2008 (Oct 27, 2015)

Hutchimus Prime said:


> That would be very cool. I'd buy that for a dollar.




Nice Robocop reference, unless of course its not


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## dave2008 (Oct 27, 2015)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm not saying it justifies the cost, but from a quick glance I think Mike's is  a significant upgrade to Anna's in terms of quality.


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## Hutchimus Prime (Oct 27, 2015)

dave2008 said:


> Nice Robocop reference, unless of course its not




It was. Nice catch


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## Radaceus (Oct 27, 2015)

This is very awesome

Mike is one of the coolest people do deal with. Use his stuff all the time for Roll20 ( granted I chop them up and homebrew them in Paint, but that's because i am pedantic and a masochist).  I had emailed him about his work on 'Baba Yaga's Dancing Hut' because I wanted to use some of them, and he immediately uploaded it to his site. He really doesn't ask to much for his maps, and gettign the player's versions is worth the 1.25 considerign the time it takes to edit out all the DM notes


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## pukunui (Oct 27, 2015)

Update: Mike says he's going to e-mail people who've already bought the map when he's got the update (complete with the missing city icons) ready to go.


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## discosoc (Oct 27, 2015)

This is exactly the kind of thing that should have been included with the purchase of the book.  It's these kinds of business practices that encourage piracy.  I say that because you pay full price for a book, and then are expected to pay 25% more for the map (assuming just the digital version.  way more for the print).


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## LapBandit (Oct 27, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Update: Mike says he's going to e-mail people who've already bought the map when he's got the update (complete with the missing city icons) ready to go.




Where did he communicate this?  I'd like to ask him a few questions.


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## Nilonym (Oct 27, 2015)

discosoc said:


> This is exactly the kind of thing that should have been included with the purchase of the book.  It's these kinds of business practices that encourage piracy.  I say that because you pay full price for a book, and then are expected to pay 25% more for the map (assuming just the digital version.  way more for the print).




Why should it have been included with the purchase of the book? It's not okay for Mike to get some compensation for his work? If he spent a few months making high-res versions of all the city maps, should those be free too? If an artist built high-res 3d models out of all the character art and offered those for sale under license, should those also be free?

I think it would have been very cool if it had been included. But _should_ have?

I just don't understand where the cutoff is. If I think the book as it exists is worth the price ($23.81 online!) then I'll buy it and be happy. If I think the high-res digital map is worth $10, I'll buy it and be happy.


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## discosoc (Oct 28, 2015)

Nilonym said:


> Why should it have been included with the purchase of the book? It's not okay for Mike to get some compensation for his work? If he spent a few months making high-res versions of all the city maps, should those be free too? If an artist built high-res 3d models out of all the character art and offered those for sale under license, should those also be free?
> 
> I think it would have been very cool if it had been included. But _should_ have?
> 
> I just don't understand where the cutoff is. If I think the book as it exists is worth the price ($23.81 online!) then I'll buy it and be happy. If I think the high-res digital map is worth $10, I'll buy it and be happy.




Either he was paid by Wizards of the Coast for the work, like artists have been for the last few decades of RPG games, or he did some kind of deal where he was paid little to nothing but retains the right to sell it directly.  If he's been paid, he's been paid.  If he hasn't been paid (or not paid much) then the books should retail for less to compensate.

Instead, it just sounds like people trying to squeeze as much money out of the playerbase as possible, and it's frustrating when it involves something kind of important to have, like a map.


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## pukunui (Oct 28, 2015)

Us said:


> Where did he communicate this?  I'd like to ask him a few questions.



On Twitter.


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## mikeschley (Oct 28, 2015)

Hey guys,

Just a few quick notes. 

1. Yes, somehow I missed that a few city icons were accidentally cut from the artwork. I've fixed the problem, updated the maps on the site and sent the new files to folks that already picked up the maps. Sorry about the error, I should have caught it sooner.

2. Although I'm not an employee of WotC, I've made a commitment to D&D because I love it. The system, settings, everything about it. I grew up learning to tell stories by playing the game and having some of my most memorable fun hunched over a pile of dice with my friends till the sun came up. As a result, I bend over backwards to make sure that the contribution I bring to the game is the absolute best that I can manage. This means that I put way more time into the work that I do than any rational being could expect. I feel that the game benifits because of this and even though the compensation in the game industry is significantly less than other illustration venues, it's a passion of mine so I do it gladly. My ability to sell copies of the artwork I create falls under the same agreement that allows other artists to sell copies their own work to fans. Since much of the game industry operates on a shoestring and utilizes work for hire agreements, this has been the historical way that artists in the field stabilize their income. I do my best but I've got to eat. Whatever your opinions about WotC or the gaming industry at large may be, the fact is that a purchase of artwork from my site directly supports my ability to make maps like this. Without you guys, I wouldn't be able to do what I do. That's the bottom line.

3. Long live The Realms!


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## pukunui (Oct 28, 2015)

[MENTION=37399]mikeschley[/MENTION]: Thanks Mike for chiming in. I, for one, am happy to buy your maps. They're such fantastic quality, and I love how nicely they all line up. Have you got some kind of underlying template that you use to do all the various regional maps?


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## jamesjhaeck (Oct 28, 2015)

discosoc said:


> Either he was paid by Wizards of the Coast for the work, like artists have been for the last few decades of RPG games, or he did some kind of deal where he was paid little to nothing but retains the right to sell it directly.  If he's been paid, he's been paid.  If he hasn't been paid (or not paid much) then the books should retail for less to compensate.
> 
> Instead, it just sounds like people trying to squeeze as much money out of the playerbase as possible, and it's frustrating when it involves something kind of important to have, like a map.




The book has a map in it. That map may be a cropped version of this map, but that's the map WotC felt was relevant to the _Sword Coast_ for their _Sword Coast._ Adventurer's Guide. Mike's full map goes beyond what is relevant to the book and it's perfectly reasonable for him to sell his own work. I can't comprehend this level of cynicism.


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## discosoc (Oct 28, 2015)

Jumblejacks said:


> The book has a map in it. That map may be a cropped version of this map, but that's the map WotC felt was relevant to the _Sword Coast_ for their _Sword Coast._ Adventurer's Guide. Mike's full map goes beyond what is relevant to the book and it's perfectly reasonable for him to sell his own work. I can't comprehend this level of cynicism.




The book's map is next to useless.  Half the sword coast is lost in the fold between the two pages.  And why is it so hard to understand that my "cynicism" is nothing more than asking for what we've been getting in the past?  Namely, a functional map with the product purchase.  

Keep in mind that I have no problem with artists selling their own maps as a way to offer a distinctly different take on it, or maybe they have a map with a specific style (old world, or atlas or whatever).  There are some artists out there that I'd gladly pay $200 for a good map.  I just have a problem paying for a basic map like this that's halfway included in the book and the artist (or publisher or whoever made the decision) is hitting me up for more money just to get a version that's not a pain to use.  You know, like I used to get in pretty much every other similar book since the 90's.


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## Demetrios1453 (Oct 28, 2015)

discosoc said:


> The book's map is next to useless.  Half the sword coast is lost in the fold between the two pages..




"Half the Sword Coast"? Might I suggest you look at the map again and revise that percentage downward drastically?

The fold only interferes with Neverwinter and Luskan, and even then not to any major degree. The rest of the fold (I'd say 80 - 90% of it) goes only through the Sea of Swords, catching only a few minor islands in the Nelanther along the way.

It's probably not a good way to attempt to deflect accusations of cynicism by grossly misrepresenting what is in the book...


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## gyor (Oct 28, 2015)

I can see it from both sides. If it was just a reproduction of the map, then yes its silly and pointless to change extra for it, BUT if it goes beyond what that map offers, and it sounds like it does in both geographic area exposed, and extra effort for improved res and maybe some other stuff that goes beyond SCAG is offering, then yes I think its okay to see it online as it effectively an different, but related product.

 That being said WotC should provide a lesser SCAG level verison of the map for those that buy it.

 And Pirates are going to pirate, most likely because they're broke or because WotC is too stupid to sell PDFs of SCAG, giving those who want a PDF no other options but Pirates (although hopefully they also buy the physical book if they can afford it).

 The truth is is that paying for these Maps is a way to support the artist, realistically its a choice and one I have great respect for, as when I have the cash, I like to support the arts. 

 Personally I'm not likely to buy the map, I would if it was the whole Faerun, as it is I might just skip the SCAG if I take a look at chapters and find I don't like the content. We'll see.


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## Demetrios1453 (Oct 28, 2015)

pukunui said:


> In relation to what?




I was wondering the same thing. The roads are almost exactly the same as they were in 1st and 2nd Editions, before 3e came along and they messed around with the main map.

However, he didn't put the routes marked as "trails" in previous editions, which does make things look a bit odd, especially with the Trade Way starting and stopping again...


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## joshinminn (Oct 28, 2015)

God some people complain about everything. Thanks, Mike, for your work and dedication. I'll happily pay you for a digital version of the map, over and above what I paid for the printed book. Support artists. Buck up, buttercup.


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 28, 2015)

discosoc said:


> I just have a problem paying for a basic map like this that's halfway included in the book and the artist (or publisher or whoever made the decision) is hitting me up for more money just to get a version that's not a pain to use.  You know, like I used to get in pretty much every other similar book since the 90's.




If you don't like what you're getting, then don't buy the book.  If you choose to buy it, you get what you pay for... not for what you thought you should get based upon what you got two decades ago.


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## discosoc (Oct 28, 2015)

Demetrios1453 said:


> "Half the Sword Coast"? Might I suggest you look at the map again and revise that percentage downward drastically?
> 
> The fold only interferes with Neverwinter and Luskan, and even then not to any major degree. The rest of the fold (I'd say 80 - 90% of it) goes only through the Sea of Swords, catching only a few minor islands in the Nelanther along the way.
> 
> It's probably not a good way to attempt to deflect accusations of cynicism by grossly misrepresenting what is in the book...




It also cuts off a huge chunk of Cormyr.  And it doesn't have a scale bar.  And the artists obsession with swirly lines makes different land types kind of blend in together a bit.  Basically, that first map is presented more as a colorful picture than an actual reference meant to be used for play;  form over function.


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## discosoc (Oct 28, 2015)

DEFCON 1 said:


> If you don't like what you're getting, then don't buy the book.  If you choose to buy it, you get what you pay for... not for what you thought you should get based upon what you got two decades ago.




That perspective is basically what tells a company that it's ok to offer less for more.  I know a lot of people like to just sugarcoat things and say "good job!" even when it's not a good job, but I'm going to tell it like it is (in my opinion).  You're free to disagree.


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## Azzy (Oct 28, 2015)

dave2008 said:


> I'm not saying it justifies the cost, but from a quick glance I think Mike's is  a significant upgrade to Anna's in terms of quality.




Hardly. Anna's maps are of top-notch quality (just like Mike's, but in a different medium). The reason she isn't charging anything, is because she _can't_ legally—her maps are not officially licensed, and are fan creations. That said, her work is extremely high quality (check out the PDFs).


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## pukunui (Oct 28, 2015)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I was wondering the same thing. The roads are almost exactly the same as they were in 1st and 2nd Editions, before 3e came along and they messed around with the main map.
> 
> However, he didn't put the routes marked as "trails" in previous editions, which does make things look a bit odd, especially with the Trade Way starting and stopping again...



Based on something Mike said to me elsewhere, it sounds like he's actually just done the basic terrain map, and WotC has added the place names and such themselves. So we should be asking them why some of the trails are missing.

I'm also curious to know why none of the 5e starter towns are on the map (eg. Phandalin, Red Larch, and Greenest). There are a few other cities I'd put on the map myself, as well, like Everlund and Athkatla. I'd probably also put Loudwater on the map, since it was the 4e FRCG starter town.

It's too bad the tiled versions don't have more detail than the full version. It really feels like it ought to be a real google maps style thing, where you get the basics at a distance, but you get more detail the further in you zoom.



discosoc said:


> That perspective is basically what tells a company that it's ok to offer less for more.



One of the main reasons TSR went under was because they offered too much. And I'm sure that the guys at WotC would love to offer us more for less, but they aren't able to due to a whole host of reasons, such as rising production costs, shrinking margins, and all that jazz. It's just not all that economical to offer things like a pull-out map and keep the cost reasonable these days.



> I know a lot of people like to just sugarcoat things and say "good job!" even when it's not a good job, but I'm going to tell it like it is (in my opinion).  You're free to disagree.



"Telling it like it is" and sharing your opinion aren't the same thing.


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## chibi graz'zt (Oct 28, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Update: Mike says he's going to e-mail people who've already bought the map when he's got the update (complete with the missing city icons) ready to go.




As you've said I got an email with my updated/corrected maps.


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## Mistwell (Oct 28, 2015)

discosoc said:


> That perspective is basically what tells a company that it's ok to offer less for more.  I know a lot of people like to just sugarcoat things and say "good job!" even when it's not a good job, but I'm going to tell it like it is (in my opinion).  You're free to disagree.




You've made your opinion heard.  It's either a persuasive and/or informative opinion, or it isn't.  Repeating it over and over again isn't helping.  We all get it - we understand where you are coming from.


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## dave2008 (Oct 28, 2015)

Azzy said:


> Hardly. Anna's maps are of top-notch quality (just like Mike's, but in a different medium). The reason she isn't charging anything, is because she _can't_ legally—her maps are not officially licensed, and are fan creations. That said, her work is extremely high quality (check out the PDFs).




I never said Anna's weren't top notch.  However, I still think Mike's are better.  I prefer the hand rendered feel of his maps over the computer generated feel of Anna's.

FYI, I download the jpeg files, didn't see an option for PDF.


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## dave2008 (Oct 28, 2015)

discosoc said:


> That perspective is basically what tells a company that it's ok to offer less for more.  I know a lot of people like to just sugarcoat things and say "good job!" even when it's not a good job, but I'm going to tell it like it is (in my opinion).  You're free to disagree.




No, if you don't buy the book you are most definitely saying, "this is not enough (quantity or quality) for the price."

Personally, I like that I can buy the map separately from the book.  I don't really have much use for the book, but I could for the map.  To me it comes down to price for content.  I think the book is worth the $24 sans large format map and I think the large res map file is worth the $10 (as a bonus I like that it more directly supports the artist as well).

Now would it be nice if one could buy the book with a large print out map for $34+/-?  Probably, but that would be $24 more than I would want to spend for the map, and that is all I want.  So it is good for me, but maybe not so much for you.


----------



## Charles Rampant (Oct 28, 2015)

I grabbed the map. It is really, really pretty. The biggest problem with it is that the file is so enormous that it breaks my dropbox app's mind a little, and so it only downloads a low-quality version to my iPhone. Not sure how to get around that.  It was cool to be able to use it in a session last night: when my players asked "where is Mirabar?", I was able to show them the whole coastline, then zoom in to show the long road between Mirabar and Waterdeep. I love these fantasy maps - going to get the Plunging Torrents framed in a couple of days, just for living room art - and having such a huge quality map of the region is really nice for giving the players a sensation of the wider world.


----------



## CapnZapp (Oct 28, 2015)

Entsuropi said:


> Not sure how to get around that.



Download to your real computer?


----------



## Wulfang (Oct 28, 2015)

Personally, I feel that a fold-out printed map could of came with the book. It would really of been a nice to have. Although it has always been included in the past, Sword Coast Legends isn't a true product of its type. I would compare it more to the 3rd edition Player's Guide to Faerun, and even then it only includes the Sword Coast.

If they do release a full Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (hopefully a boxed set), then yeah, I would expect it to include printed detailed maps. Then again, I would also expect to be more expensive then what has been released so far.

I can understand charging for the digital version though, most games don't even offer a digital version of the map, so I see it as a bonus. $10 for a full-res map that I can then modify as I feel and print at my leisure is a fair deal in my opinion.


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 28, 2015)

discosoc said:


> That perspective is basically what tells a company that it's ok to offer less for more.  I know a lot of people like to just sugarcoat things and say "good job!" even when it's not a good job, but I'm going to tell it like it is (in my opinion).  You're free to disagree.




Your wallet speaks louder than your posts on a message board.


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## Cristian Andreu (Oct 28, 2015)

As we say around here, "Reflautas!". That's a very nice piece of work.


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## gyor (Oct 28, 2015)

I'll point out that the perfectly valid complaints about the Map issue (which have not been made by me, but I'm sympathic), are against WotC not agianst Mike trying to make a living selling an inproved map, no one has a problem with Mike, its a problem with WotC's decisions. I just thought this deserved clarity.


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## darjr (Oct 28, 2015)

Love that map.  Thanks


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## akr71 (Oct 28, 2015)

MonsterEnvy said:


> During the events of the latest Forgotten Realms novels. The Drow wanting to get back at the Dwarves of the Silver Marches for defeating them in the past. Attempted to have Many Arrows fight the War for them. Obould XVIII the current king was not keen on the idea. The Drow responded to this by having him poisoned at a feast and framing his eldest son, heir and fellow moderate Lorgru for the crime. Resulting in Lorgru's exile. They then aided in putting a warmongering puppet named Hartusk in charge. The Orcs had good results for a while but eventually made too many mistakes and the Dwarf holds banded together to defeat them and the Drow. Lorgru eventually returned from his exile and took his throne back and aided in defeating Hartusk. The Dwarves however refused Lorgru's attempts to sue for peace and forced him and his followers out of the silver marches.
> 
> It's better if you just read Archmages sample chapter which features the meeting with Lorgru after they won the war.




That is quite interesting!  I haven't read any of the novels, but I wrote an adventure for my group (post Lost Mines) that has them uncover a Drow plot to try and recruit the Many-Arrows in sieging the Dwarves.  They uncovered the plot while the Orcs were attempting to negotiate a higher payment.


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## akr71 (Oct 28, 2015)

Us said:


> I bought it.  Some of the roads arent where they are supposed to be.   Also when did Anauroch get so big?




Roads change with time.  I work in geomatics - even in 2015 it is sometimes shocking to see where property boundary data has a road right-of-way and where it 'actually' based on data from land surveyors.

And when dirt roads wash out or pass too close to hostile environments... well, the travelers take it upon themselves to find new routes.


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## discosoc (Oct 28, 2015)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Your wallet speaks louder than your posts on a message board.




Not really.  If I choose not to buy the SCAG because it lacks a map, then WotC will just assume it was a good idea in the first place not to spend the money to include one for a product I didn't purchase.  They have no way of knowing why a product wasn't purchased.  Yeah, I could write to them, but it's funny how easily a company will ignore private communication.

And if I choose not to buy Mike's map directly from him, he has no way of knowing why.  It's not a "lost sale" to him.  But if he reads this post and see me complaining, suddenly it is a lost sale to him.  Maybe not one that means much, but it's at least known.

For the record, I did purchase the SCAG.  It's ok with some extra rules, but really doesn't offer much that's particularly useful.  The biggest problem with Forgotten Realms right now is that there's so much confusion as to what the map looks like post-spellplague, and what the big changes from the last round are.  It's been no secret that people (including the likes of Ed Greenwood apparently) weren't exactly happy with how 4e handled it all, and that a reboot/retcon type thing was in the works.

This whole map thing wouldn't even be on my radar if not for the sheer lack of communication and clarity on the setting.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Oct 28, 2015)

akr71 said:


> That is quite interesting!  I haven't read any of the novels, but I wrote an adventure for my group (post Lost Mines) that has them uncover a Drow plot to try and recruit the Many-Arrows in sieging the Dwarves.  They uncovered the plot while the Orcs were attempting to negotiate a higher payment.




Here if you want to look at the events following the war yourself. http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Archmage_Sample.pdf


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## Mistwell (Oct 28, 2015)

discosoc said:


> Not really.  If I choose not to buy the SCAG because it lacks a map, then WotC will just assume it was a good idea in the first place not to spend the money to include one for a product I didn't purchase.  They have no way of knowing why a product wasn't purchased.  Yeah, I could write to them, but it's funny how easily a company will ignore private communication.




I promise you, they are much more likely to ignore you complaining on ENWorld about it in the midst of Mike's thread. Even those who agree with you are being tentative about it, because of your tone and where you said it and how you said it.  In fact I'd say your best case scenario at this point is them ignoring what happened in this thread - if they actually paid attention they would likely conclude, from the totality of this thread, the map being done the way they did it was a good idea.



> And if I choose not to buy Mike's map directly from him, he has no way of knowing why.  It's not a "lost sale" to him.  But if he reads this post and see me complaining, suddenly it is a lost sale to him.  Maybe not one that means much, but it's at least known.




You've made it clear you think it should have been included for free.  There is no scenario you've outlined where you would have bought it directly from Mike.  How is that a lost sale?  You've made it clear you were never going to be his customer anyway.



> For the record, I did purchase the SCAG.




OK, so it was in fact enough to get you to buy it, knowing the map was not free.  So WOTC was right, even about you. I don't even understand your point anymore.  There seems to be no principal here - or at least no principal you are willing to back in any meaningful way other than being a bit of a crank about it in the artist's thread.


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## JeffB (Oct 28, 2015)

I've been out of the loop, so I just want to clarify..

There is no map included with the SCAG print book? 

You have to buy the map separately as a expensive print version or a PDF?


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## vandaexpress (Oct 28, 2015)

Great job, Mike. Love your maps and will be picking up this one today, this will be the 27th one I've purchased directly from you, so while I can't speak for everyone else, I for one, am grateful that you offer all of your maps for sale independently.

And I guarantee that I will buy literally any high-res battlemaps you release at the 5ft scale... hint hint 

Keep up the good work.


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 28, 2015)

JeffB said:


> I've been out of the loop, so I just want to clarify..
> 
> There is no map included with the SCAG print book?
> 
> You have to buy the map separately as a expensive print version or a PDF?




Actually, I believe there *is* a large portion of the map included in the SCAG (shrunk down to the size of the book pages obviously), but that Schley's map you can buy and download from his site covers a larger area and has more details in it (more roads/towns/sites listed?)

At least, that's what I've gotten from the folks here and tweets Schley has made.


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## pukunui (Oct 28, 2015)

I don't think it has more detail, but it definitely covers a wider area. It extends west over all the islands except Evermeet, and it extends east as far as the Dalelands.


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 28, 2015)

pukunui said:


> I don't think it has more detail, but it definitely covers a wider area. It extends west over all the islands except Evermeet, and it extends east as far as the Dalelands.




You could be right.  The only reason why I thought the downloadable one had more details was based on Mike's comments about needing to edit the NW part of the maps because icons were out of place and then emails everyone who bought it to download it again.  Which made me think those were special additions and features to the online map because otherwise you'd think they would have already been set down correctly for the version that got printed.  (Unless of course those additional icons were for cities and sites that landed outside the area that was printed in the book itself, which could explain why they weren't already placed prior to printing.)


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## pukunui (Oct 28, 2015)

DEFCON 1 said:


> (Unless of course those additional icons were for cities and sites that landed outside the area that was printed in the book itself, which could explain why they weren't already placed prior to printing.)



Bingo. The cities that were missing their black dot icons were all off to the right - places like Iriaebor, Elversult, Arabel, Saerloon, Hillsfar, etc. 

Mike hasn't said anything about it, but I noticed that the original map also left Suzail off the map and had Marsember in its place. That's been corrected (with Marsember moved a little to the east and Suzail marked where it should be) in the new map as well.


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## Greybird (Oct 28, 2015)

Trying to read through all this. Wow.  This keeps coming up:  Discussing trends in an industry is part of being involved in a hobby.  Criticizing trends that one finds troubling or harmful is not just reasonable, it is important and necessary.  It creates discussion that, if it is valid, spreads and can even (yes, really) bring about change.  

This forum has a tendency to dismiss any such criticism with "then shut up and don't buy it."  It is never beneficial to shut down controversial opinions that way.  If  you do, then the comments section is irrelevant - it could just be replaced with a 'like' icon.


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## pukunui (Oct 29, 2015)

Mike Schley just posted this on Twitter. Gives you a good sense of scale:






EDIT: It was originally posted here. As a map nut, I appreciate that the guy made the effort to line up Waterdeep with the Portland, OR area, since that's been used as a latitude reference for FR in the past.


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## Radaceus (Oct 29, 2015)

I always knew I had an affinity to Neverwinter (Seattle)!


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## Demetrios1453 (Oct 29, 2015)

JeffB said:


> I've been out of the loop, so I just want to clarify..
> 
> There is no map included with the SCAG print book?
> 
> You have to buy the map separately as a expensive print version or a PDF?





The majority of the map is in the book. The northern and southern edges of both maps are roughly the same (from the Spine of the World to the Forest of Tethir), but the map in the book cuts off the eastern and western edges - it goes from just west of Mintarn (you can just see the edge of the Moonshaes) to the Cormyr - Sembia border. The Moonshaes section of the map is reproduced separately in the book, in the section on the Moonshaes themselves, not surprisingly...


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## fjw70 (Oct 29, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Mike Schley just posted this on Twitter. Gives you a good sense of scale:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is pretty cool.


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## fjw70 (Oct 29, 2015)

So I have the forgotten realms map from my gray box set from the 80s. Is this useful for the current realms?  Or is there a lot of stuff that older map is missing?  

Never really played the realms so I do not know.


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## fjw70 (Oct 29, 2015)

CapnZapp said:


> Download to your real computer?




That's disappointing. An electronic map isn't much good to me if I can't use it properly on my iPad.


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## Parmandur (Oct 29, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Mike Schley just posted this on Twitter. Gives you a good sense of scale:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Wow, that's some great context; Faerun is huge!


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## HonorBoundSamurai632 (Oct 29, 2015)

Greybird said:


> Trying to read through all this. Wow.  This keeps coming up:  Discussing trends in an industry is part of being involved in a hobby.  Criticizing trends that one finds troubling or harmful is not just reasonable, it is important and necessary.  It creates discussion that, if it is valid, spreads and can even (yes, really) bring about change.
> 
> This forum has a tendency to dismiss any such criticism with "then shut up and don't buy it."  It is never beneficial to shut down controversial opinions that way.  If  you do, then the comments section is irrelevant - it could just be replaced with a 'like' icon.




Thank-you. I have ran into this problem many times on these forums when I bring up an opposing view point. I do have an issue with the way the map was handled. It's obviously not a popular comment here. Mike's map looks amazing. He does beyond stellar work (I bought his City of Greyhawk 3.5 map.) Got it printed off at my local Office Max for $20. So total it cost me $30. To get the map I need for the new Forgotten Realms book, it's going to cost around $80! ($40 for the book, $10 for the digital pack, and $30 to print it off at size 24x36 at the same Office Max.) In comparison, The Inner Sea World Guide is $50. You get the book with a pretty detailed, (I'll admit, not complete) description of every area of The Inner Sea region. There is also a gorgeous, high-quality, map attached to the back. It's beautiful.

A couple years ago, Paizo explained on their website the reason they had to increase the prices on their Adventure Path books from 19.99 to 24.99. (printing costs, ink costs, etc.) They were open and honest, and explained that instead of cutting back on quality, they decided to increase the cost. Their honesty was understood and accepted by the Paizo community. The Adventure Paths continue to be a hot seller for them.

Everyone here likes to rip on Paizo quite a bit. Yet WoTC adopted many of the practices that have made Pathfinder successful. $50 for the core books, (Pathfinder's Core Rulebook is $50, but it's a PHB and DMG in one book,) having Wizkids make the minis, open play-test, emphasis on story, etc. What is so wrong with using map packs like Paizo? They let Sovereign Press release the Tasselhoff Map Pouches for 3.5 Dragonlance. This would work great for this new Forgotten Realms book.

Sadly, with the way WoTC is trickling out products these days ..... I will have to buy this Sword Coast book, (because I no longer have time to write my own campaign,) and will have to get Mike's Digital Map and have Office Max print it in the size I want, (because the size I want, I can't afford $136 for it.)

And what is really crushing to me, is that I prefer Greyhawk, but since FR is all that matters, and it's all that is available .... because of my limited prep time ..... I'm going to have to buy it, and WoTC is going to take it as it's what I want.

I agree with you, there should just be a like button.


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## pukunui (Oct 29, 2015)

fjw70 said:


> So I have the forgotten realms map from my gray box set from the 80s. Is this useful for the current realms?  Or is there a lot of stuff that older map is missing?
> 
> Never really played the realms so I do not know.



I've got those maps too. You could still use them easily enough. There might be a few extra details here and there but nothing major. In fact, I'd say that this new 5e map of the Realms has been deliberately made to more closely resemble the original AD&D maps than the 3e and 4e maps do. (4e's is the most dramatically different, but the Sundering event was meant to "restore" it back to how it had been before.)


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## fjw70 (Oct 29, 2015)

pukunui said:


> I've got those maps too. You could still use them easily enough. There might be a few extra details here and there but nothing major. In fact, I'd say that this new 5e map of the Realms has been deliberately made to more closely resemble the original AD&D maps than the 3e and 4e maps do. (4e's is the most dramatically different, but the Sundering event was meant to "restore" it back to how it had been before.)




Good to know. Thanks.

How much time has passed from the original boxed set to the present time? Are the Crystal Shard characters still around? Was the Crystal Shard concurrent with the events of the Bloodstone Pass series (H1-4)?


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## Parmandur (Oct 29, 2015)

I think it's like 140 years, but because magic yes, they are around...


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## hawkeyefan (Oct 29, 2015)

The map looks really nice. I'll likely pick one up.

As for WotC's decision regarding the map...I certainly don't think it's above criticism. Would I have liked a poster map folded and tucked into the back cover of my SCAG? Sure. But do I "need" it, the way many here are saying it is "needed"? No, not at all.

Up to now, I've simply been using the fold out poster from my 3E FR Guide for my Faerun needs. And my campaign is running just fine. I've also found plenty of resources online that are very helpful.

I know people want official material and all...and I can certainly understand that to an extent....but in the absence of the official new material, there is still plenty of published material about the Realms and other settings. And if you can't find published material for what you are looking for....then you may just have to suck it up and use the old imagination.

Mike's maps are really nice. I'll likely get this one in some format because I'd like to have it. I in no way feel like it is essential and I will struggle to run games without it.

So I can understand a level of criticism about WotC's decision to handle the maps this way. But I think that it'd be nice if a thread that seems designed to spotlight a nice piece of art made it more than the second comment before people started complaining. Literally two comments in and the complaints started.


----------



## Mistwell (Oct 29, 2015)

Greybird said:


> Trying to read through all this. Wow.  This keeps coming up:  Discussing trends in an industry is part of being involved in a hobby.  Criticizing trends that one finds troubling or harmful is not just reasonable, it is important and necessary.  It creates discussion that, if it is valid, spreads and can even (yes, really) bring about change.
> 
> This forum has a tendency to dismiss any such criticism with "then shut up and don't buy it."  It is never beneficial to shut down controversial opinions that way.  If  you do, then the comments section is irrelevant - it could just be replaced with a 'like' icon.




It all depends on whether your tone makes you sound like a spoiled entitled jerk, or a considerate rational observer.  The forum tends to dismiss the former and welcome the later.


----------



## Mistwell (Oct 29, 2015)

HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> Thank-you. I have ran into this problem many times on these forums when I bring up an opposing view point.




Disagreement with your views should not be viewed as a problem.  We're all as free to disagree with your view as you are to disagree with ours.



> Everyone here likes to rip on Paizo quite a bit.




This is where I dismiss your views.  No we don't.  The overwhelming vast majority of this board likes Paizo just fine.  You generalizing the entire message board like that makes it seem like you have no idea what this forum is like.  You're making false assumptions, painting with a broad brush, and exhibiting no sense of knowledge or experience with the people you're generalizing about.



> I agree with you, there should just be a like button.




There is.  It's the "Give XP for this post" button on the bottom left of each message.  But, people liking something is no more or less important than people disliking something.  Not sure why you think the purpose of the message board is only criticism.


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## Radaceus (Oct 29, 2015)

Chiming in again to give a big thanks to Mike.
awesome job!

Keep em coming!


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## pukunui (Oct 29, 2015)

fjw70 said:


> How much time has passed from the original boxed set to the present time? Are the Crystal Shard characters still around? Was the Crystal Shard concurrent with the events of the Bloodstone Pass series (H1-4)?



The 1e grey box started in 1357 DR. 5e's era starts around 1489 DR. (4e introduced a 100-year time gap.)

Drizzt is still alive, and his friends were all recently brought back to life. Bruenor even makes a brief appearance in _Out of the Abyss_ as king of the newly refounded Gauntlgrym.

Not sure about the Bloodstone Pass series.


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## Ricochet (Oct 29, 2015)

Is the Moonsea region on the digital map / PDF deal? I am organizing the Expeditions and an updated map with Phlan, Mulmaster, Hillsfar etc would be tremendous!

Edit: I see some of the Moonsea far off to the right there, but wondering if the cities and areas needed for Expeditions adventures (above) are included or not depending on where those cities are in the 5e world.


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## pukunui (Oct 29, 2015)

ParagonofVirtue said:


> Is the Moonsea region on the digital map / PDF deal? I am organizing the Expeditions and an updated map with Phlan, Mulmaster, Hillsfar etc would be tremendous!
> 
> Edit: I see some of the Moonsea far off to the right there, but wondering if the cities and areas needed for Expeditions adventures (above) are included or not depending on where those cities are in the 5e world.



It's only partially on the map. Zhentil Keep and Hillsfar are the only Moonsea locations marked on the map. Phlan is missing, while Mulmaster would be just off the right edge of the map.


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## Charles Rampant (Oct 29, 2015)

I don't know about those other places, but Hilsfar is on the map.


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## Ricochet (Oct 29, 2015)

Bummer. 

Mike: Any chance of a Moonsea map?


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## akr71 (Oct 29, 2015)

Paid my $10 (or whatever it works out to in CDN) this morning and was happy to do so.  The artist gets paid and I get great artwork at amazing resolution and a fairly permissive license on my end.

As I said earlier, I work in geomatics and I license geographic data to industry everyday.  The licensing fees for our high resolution imagery is pretty much on par.

As a map geek, I can think of all kinds of things I would like to see in the PDF product - being able to turn thematic layers on and off such as contour lines, roads, cities, etc.  However, would I expect to get such a product and the high res image for $10?  No.


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 29, 2015)

Greybird said:


> Trying to read through all this. Wow.  This keeps coming up:  Discussing trends in an industry is part of being involved in a hobby.  Criticizing trends that one finds troubling or harmful is not just reasonable, it is important and necessary.  It creates discussion that, if it is valid, spreads and can even (yes, really) bring about change.
> 
> This forum has a tendency to dismiss any such criticism with "then shut up and don't buy it."  It is never beneficial to shut down controversial opinions that way.  If  you do, then the comments section is irrelevant - it could just be replaced with a 'like' icon.




What we actually do is point out blatant hyperbole that is used merely to make their point seem "big" or "important"... and when that's the case we mention that they are either being overly dramatic, they need to set their expectations to a reasonable level, or if it's really such a *huge deal* that they aren't getting what they want, perhaps they'd be happier sticking with those products that satisfy their desires.

When someone states that the map in the book is "next to useless"... when by all accounts the map is actually a fairly good one (miles ahead of the 4E one from what I understand)... yeah, someone's going to point out what they think is the disingenuousness of that statement.  And if then the person doesn't like having their hyperbolic posts highlighted in that way... well, then they probably shouldn't use the hyperbole in the first place.

It is completely possible to express your regret that something isn't up to a certain standard without making it seem like WotC kicked you in the nuts or stole your wallet like some vindictive street thug.  But surprise surprise... that kind of reasonableness doesn't "get the hits" and thus they instead go over the top.


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## DM_Jeff (Oct 29, 2015)

ParagonofVirtue said:


> Bummer.
> 
> Mike: Any chance of a Moonsea map?




There is *kind of* a Moonsea map I got from Mike's site - you need to look around. However, it only covers the north shore (Hillsfar and Thurmaster aren't on there, it's more of Vassa, Damara, and the cold lands there).


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## darjr (Oct 29, 2015)

But do those maps sync up with the new one?


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## GobiWon (Oct 29, 2015)

I assume including a fold out map with the SCAG would have pushed up costs by quite a bit, but how hard is it to send the image to Gale Force 9 and have them produce it on the same fold out stock as the DM Screens. I would pay $20 for that and I think a lot of others would also.


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## pukunui (Oct 29, 2015)

darjr said:


> But do those maps sync up with the new one?



Mike's maps all sync up beautifully. It's uncanny.


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## Demetrios1453 (Oct 30, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Mike's maps all sync up beautifully. It's uncanny.




I really, really hope we see 3 more of his maps to cover the rest of Faerun. I would pay good money for that set! (And if we get Kara-Tur and/or Zakhara maps as well...)


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## basilforth (Oct 30, 2015)

These maps are awesome.  Very good value.  Thank you!


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## Silthen (Oct 30, 2015)

What I want to know is why a pull-out map wasn't included in the book. For $40 we should've gotten one. At the very least, the map inside the book should have a scale in it. How am I supposed to plan an adventure when I can't figure out how far it is from point A to point B?! Paying $136 for a poster-sized map is NOT an option. I shouldn't have to find a map of my own online to print out either.


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## Silthen (Oct 30, 2015)

Oh, and before anyone says to "speak with my wallet" or "don't buy it if you don't like it", my FLGS shrink-wraps all their books. I had no way of knowing there wasn't a map included. They also have a no return policy. Had I known, I wouldn't have bought this product. I indeed would've spoken with my wallet, although I doubt it would make a difference.


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## darjr (Oct 30, 2015)

Shrunk wrap and no return policy really isn't a WotC issue. That store is horrid.


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 30, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Oh, and before anyone says to "speak with my wallet" or "don't buy it if you don't like it", my FLGS shrink-wraps all their books. I had no way of knowing there wasn't a map included. They also have a no return policy. Had I known, I wouldn't have bought this product. I indeed would've spoken with my wallet, although I doubt it would make a difference.




Well... you could have waited a day or do and then done a google search on it.  But I guess you were like... already there at the store.  So yeah... you had to get it then.  I can see your point.


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## pukunui (Oct 30, 2015)

Dude ...


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## Shasarak (Oct 30, 2015)

Having a sweet pull out map with the book would have been cool.


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## Silthen (Oct 30, 2015)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Well... you could have waited a day or do and then done a google search on it.  But I guess you were like... already there at the store.  So yeah... you had to get it then.  I can see your point.




Why would I wait a day or two? I guess it's my fault for assuming that WotC would do right by ut's players and provide a pull-out map. Especially since most newer gamers don't have access to older Realms materials and the younger ones don't have $136 to shell out for a poster-sized map. Yep it's all my fault.


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## Silthen (Oct 30, 2015)

darjr said:


> Shrunk wrap and no return policy really isn't a WotC issue. That store is horrid.




I didn't say it was a WoTC issue. What I said was that I wouldn't have bought the product had I known there was no pull-out map, and I couldn't tell because it was shrink-wrapped. And yes, it's a horrid place, but that's what I get for trying to support my local gaming store.


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## Jeremy E Grenemyer (Oct 30, 2015)

I like what this guy did with the map: http://imgur.com/a/PV1JZ?desktop=1


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## darjr (Oct 30, 2015)

Is that vinyl?


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## Silthen (Oct 30, 2015)

Look, I'm sorry that there are those of you out there that don't feel the same way that myself or many others do, and I'm truly happy that you like the product as is, I really am, but that doesn't make my opinion any less valid than yours. Back in the day, before I took a long hiatus from gaming, setting material came with a pull-out map. I fail to see why it should be any different now. This is the first setting sourcebook for the Realms for 5e, and $40 is alot (to me, I'm poor) for what is, imo, a thin book. I feel it should've come with a map, and nothing anyone says is changing that opinion. I contacted WotC via email. No response. My only recourse is to post something here and hope that WotC sees it and realizes their mistake for future reference. Maybe I should've waited and bought the book after googling it or whatever, forgive me for getting excited about revisiting the Realms again after so many years. In the future that's exactly what I'll do.


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## darjr (Oct 30, 2015)

For me it's not the opinion it's that the purchase was such a steep price for you and you purchased it sight unseen. I do think it would be great to have a pullout map, but I would have started a separate thread and not dumped on this one because I luvre that the digital is available. I do have sympathies for those trying to make ends meet. It's gotta suck.


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## Mistwell (Oct 30, 2015)

Silthen said:


> What I want to know is why a pull-out map wasn't included in the book.




Because the benefits to WOTC didn't outweigh the costs



> For $40 we should've gotten one




Given the sales, obviously this isn't the case.  $40 for a hardback book like this without a map seems on par for this marketplace.


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## Mistwell (Oct 30, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Oh, and before anyone says to "speak with my wallet" or "don't buy it if you don't like it", my FLGS shrink-wraps all their books. I had no way of knowing there wasn't a map included. They also have a no return policy. Had I known, I wouldn't have bought this product. I indeed would've spoken with my wallet, although I doubt it would make a difference.




Who is your FLGS that refuses returns on new items? I really honestly want to know, because I think that violates WOTC's policies.


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## darjr (Oct 30, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Why would I wait a day or two? I guess it's my fault for assuming that WotC would do right by ut's players and provide a pull-out map. Especially since most newer gamers don't have access to older Realms materials and the younger ones don't have $136 to shell out for a poster-sized map. Yep it's all my fault.






Silthen said:


> I didn't say it was a WoTC issue. What I said was that I wouldn't have bought the product had I known there was no pull-out map, and I couldn't tell because it was shrink-wrapped. And yes, it's a horrid place, but that's what I get for trying to support my local gaming store.




Dude you just did!


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## Silthen (Oct 30, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> Who is your FLGS that refuses returns on new items? I really honestly want to know, because I think that violates WOTC's policies.



 Recess Games, North Olmsted, OH. Big sign at the register says "no refunds".


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## Silthen (Oct 30, 2015)

darjr said:


> Dude you just did!



 With regards to what you said about shrink wrap and no return policy not being WoTC's fault I never said it was. I do hold them at fault for not including a map.


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## Jeremy E Grenemyer (Oct 30, 2015)

darjr said:


> Is that vinyl?




Cloth of some kind, according to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/3qqfsk/the_artist_prints_from_mike_schley_werent_quite


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## Silthen (Oct 30, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> Because the benefits to WOTC didn't outweigh the costs
> 
> 
> 
> Given the sales, obviously this isn't the case.  $40 for a hardback book like this without a map seems on par for this marketplace.




I disagree, for only $10 more I got a shiny new PHB that was twice as big and used way more ink and paper than it would take for a map.


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## Silthen (Oct 30, 2015)

darjr said:


> For me it's not the opinion it's that the purchase was such a steep price for you and you purchased it sight unseen. I do think it would be great to have a pullout map, but I would have started a separate thread and not dumped on this one because I luvre that the digital is available. I do have sympathies for those trying to make ends meet. It's gotta suck.




A. I'm not the only one that "dumped" on this thread.

B. I think it's relevant and on topic.

C. The article realting to these posts is on the front page of EnWorld and I hope that someone from WotC looks through these posts and sees this.


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## Jeremy E Grenemyer (Oct 30, 2015)

As awesome as this map appears to be in tablecloth form, I won't be satisfied until I can buy it as Christmas wrapping paper.


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## darjr (Oct 31, 2015)

I hope the other map that covers more of the AL area of play fits this one. I'd love to print out a combined one or one that focuses on just the Adventurer's League area.


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## pukunui (Oct 31, 2015)

Silthen said:


> I disagree, for only $10 more I got a shiny new PHB that was twice as big and used way more ink and paper than it would take for a map.



They're also going to be selling heaps more PHBs than SCAGs. That has a big impact on the cost/benefit ratio, so you can't really compare the two.

I reckon WotC would've looked into the viability of releasing a pull-out map with the book but ultimately decided it wasn't going to work for them. I'm not sure that the old box sets with several campaign books and loads of maps and other goodies were a particularly viable option even back in the 90s when TSR was pumping them out. They were part of the reason that TSR went under. Yes, WotC included pull-out maps with the 3e and 4e FR guidebooks but that doesn't mean we should feel entitled to expect the same now.


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

pukunui said:


> They're also going to be selling heaps more PHBs than SCAGs. That has a big impact on the cost/benefit ratio, so you can't really compare the two.
> 
> I reckon WotC would've looked into the viability of releasing a pull-out map with the book but ultimately decided it wasn't going to work for them. I'm not sure that the old box sets with several campaign books and loads of maps and other goodies were a particularly viable option even back in the 90s when TSR was pumping them out. They were part of the reason that TSR went under. Yes, WotC included pull-out maps with the 3e and 4e FR guidebooks but that doesn't mean we should feel entitled to expect the same now.




No, actually it DOES mean we are entitled to those maps! When you sell a product for so long in a certain fashion, the consumer EXPECTS the same or better going forward. I wouldn't buy a new Iphone and be ok with it NOT having Safari included, then have to pay extra to download that app. I refuse to believe that a four-panel map would really cost them all that much to include for an already overpriced book. To be honest, I WOULD buy one of Mike Schley's maps and be done with it, but $136 for the size I wnat only adds insult to injury. Also, it looks like his map did have a scale on it, but it just got cut off on the map included in the book. How hard would it have been to include it somewhere? No one has really offered any information that is useful to me. If you guys are so smart, how about coming up with a solution for those of us without a FR map that isn't happy with the book and doesn't want to spend a fortune on a poster-sized map. I admit that I haven't read every single post on this thread, but those of you that have replied to my posts have been less than helpful.


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## pukunui (Oct 31, 2015)

Silthen said:


> No, actually it DOES mean we are entitled to those maps!



No. It really doesn't. Just because you expect it doesn't mean you're entitled to it. WotC doesn't owe you anything.



> No one has really offered any information that is useful to me ... I admit that I haven't read every single post on this thread, but those of you that have replied to my posts have been less than helpful.



If you do take the time to go back and read through the thread, you'll see some posters have mentioned that they've taken the maps to places like Staples or Kinkos or wherever and gotten fairly cheap prints. The $136 is quite high, but Mike himself chimed in by pointing out that zenfolio sets those prices, not him. He doesn't really have any control over that.

If I end up printing off the map (and I'm not sure that I will), I'll probably just get my wife or one of my friends to print it at A3 size, which they can do for free at their respective places of work.


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

pukunui said:


> No. It really doesn't. Just because you expect it doesn't mean you're entitled to it. WotC doesn't owe you anything.
> 
> If you do take the time to go back and read through the thread, you'll see some posters have mentioned that they've taken the maps to places like Staples or Kinkos or wherever and gotten fairly cheap prints. The $136 is quite high, but Mike himself chimed in by pointing out that zenfolio sets those prices, not him. He doesn't really have any control over that.
> 
> If I end up printing off the map (and I'm not sure that I will), I'll probably just get my wife or one of my friends to print it at A3 size, which they can do for free at their respective places of work.




Yes, it DOES. I EXPECT a campaign setting to have the most basic of necessities: a map, just the same as I expect descriptions of locations, npc's, etc. The one page, tiny map with no scale included in the book is a joke and insult to the consumer, all in the name of saving a buck. If I didn't have to defend my opinion against less-than-helpful individuals every five minutes, I probably would have time to scour the 7 pages of posts in this thread for something constructive. Would it have been so hard to say, "Hey, I hear you're not happy with SCAG, here's what some others have done..." right off the bat? No, instead there's post after post of people on their high horses telling me and the others how wrong we are. At least you suggested Staples for me, I was unaware they could print posters.


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## graves3141 (Oct 31, 2015)

Schley's map is quite impressive even though it isn't the entire FR world map that we're used to seeing.  I wish the map had been free (and I kind of expected it would be given past precedent set by WotC) but I suppose $10 isn't going to break me.  I'll probably get it over the next week and maybe have it printed off locally (maybe get it in four laminated sections?  I don't know yet what that might cost me but I'm going to find out).   

Also, I've never bought anything from Schley's site before.  Will the map be a flat $10 fee without tax?  Just curious, I need to know the exact amount before I buy it.  Thanks guys.


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## pukunui (Oct 31, 2015)

[MENTION=6795434]Silthen[/MENTION]: I am sorry that you're disappointed that WotC didn't meet your expectations. I'll admit that I've been disappointed by WotC over the years. I've learned not to expect much from them. Even so, I do not feel entitled to have what expectations I do have met. If I don't get what I want, oh well. WotC has made it pretty clear from the start that 5e is the DIY edition of D&D. Looks like that includes the printing of maps.



graves3141 said:


> Also, I've never bought anything from Schley's site before.  Will the map be a flat $10 fee without tax?  Just curious, I need to know the exact amount before I buy it.  Thanks guys.



Yep. It'll just be a flat $10 for the digital files.


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

pukunui said:


> @_*Silthen*_: I am sorry that you're disappointed that WotC didn't meet your expectations. I'll admit that I've been disappointed by WotC over the years. I've learned not to expect much from them. Even so, I do not feel entitled to have what expectations I do have met. If I don't get what I want, oh well. WotC has made it pretty clear from the start that 5e is the DIY edition of D&D. Looks like that includes the printing of maps.
> 
> Yep. It'll just be a flat $10 for the digital files.




I appreciate it. I skipped all of 4e and was really excited to start playing in the Realms again. I just want what's been included in just about every other setting resource since back when I played 1e, a decent map!


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## graves3141 (Oct 31, 2015)

pukunui said:


> [MENTION=6795434]Silthen[/MENTION]: I am sorry that you're disappointed that WotC didn't meet your expectations. I'll admit that I've been disappointed by WotC over the years. I've learned not to expect much from them. Even so, I do not feel entitled to have what expectations I do have met. If I don't get what I want, oh well. WotC has made it pretty clear from the start that 5e is the DIY edition of D&D. Looks like that includes the printing of maps.
> 
> Yep. It'll just be a flat $10 for the digital files.




Awesome, thanks man!

Also, I was thinking... what chance do you guys think that the D&D Extra Life thing will hit $100,000 bucks, which would make the FR map free for everyone?  The total keeps creeping up and as of right now, there's about seven grand left to go so I'm thinking it might be a possibility.  Let's assume the goal is reached in like 3 weeks or so, does that mean we'll get the same map for free that Schley is selling right now on his site?  Do you think the free version will be different somehow?  Maybe a little lower resolution or something?


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## Shasarak (Oct 31, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> Because the benefits to WOTC didn't outweigh the costs




To be fair, when I make a purchase I do not usually consider the benefits to WotC.

But in any case, I am considering getting the digital map and making up a poster map just so I can do 1995 all over again.


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## EthanSental (Oct 31, 2015)

Wow, are we entitled to it? A map since it was in previous editions? How about a paycheck from the govt from various entitlement programs since that's what started this train of thought.  It's so prevalent our society (in the USA at least) and is disgusting to me as it will never end apparently.  

Sorry, tangent, but something that has bugged me for a while and reading that set me off.


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## Shasarak (Oct 31, 2015)

EthanSental said:


> Wow, are we entitled to it? A map since it was in previous editions? How about a paycheck from the govt from various entitlement programs since that's what started this train of thought.  It's so prevalent our society (in the USA at least) and is disgusting to me as it will never end apparently.
> 
> Sorry, tangent, but something that has bugged me for a while and reading that set me off.




Sorry but Hasbro is not a Banking consortium so most likely will not be receiving any government subsidies.


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## Mistwell (Oct 31, 2015)

Silthen said:


> No, actually it DOES mean we are entitled to those maps!




I appreciate your honesty in admitting you are expressing a sense of entitlement.

Of course, it's totally unfounded. You're not entitled to anything.  But, I appreciate that you're up front about where you stand.



> When you sell a product for so long in a certain fashion, the consumer EXPECTS the same or better going forward.




I don't.  I didn't expect for a moment any fold out maps from this product.  You don't speak for me, and you don't speak for all consumers.  You speak for yourself.



> I refuse to believe that a four-panel map would really cost them all that much to include for an already overpriced book




You now how we can all tell you didn't really think it was overpriced? You bought it.  The definition of overpriced is the line drawn between buying it or not buying it.  If it's overprice, you don't buy it.  That's what it means - over the price at which one would be willing to spend that sum of money for that product.



> To be honest, I WOULD buy one of Mike Schley's maps and be done with it, but $136 for the size I wnat only adds insult to injury.




Nobody is insulted, and nobody is injured.  Nobody is forcing you to buy anything and nobody was entitled to anything despite you feeling like you were.



> Also, it looks like his map did have a scale on it, but it just got cut off on the map included in the book. How hard would it have been to include it somewhere? No one has really offered any information that is useful to me. If you guys are so smart, how about coming up with a solution for those of us without a FR map that isn't happy with the book and doesn't want to spend a fortune on a poster-sized map. I admit that I haven't read every single post on this thread, but those of you that have replied to my posts have been less than helpful.




How about all the guys who said they bought the $10 version, took it to a place like staples, and had it printed blown-up there at a small price?


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## Mistwell (Oct 31, 2015)

Shasarak said:


> To be fair, when I make a purchase I do not usually consider the benefits to WotC.
> 
> But in any case, I am considering getting the digital map and making up a poster map just so I can do 1995 all over again.




He asked why they did it that way.  That's the answer to his question.  You don't have to consider the benefits to WOTC, but WOTC has to consider the benefits to WOTC.


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## Shasarak (Oct 31, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> He asked why they did it that way.  That's the answer to his question.  You don't have to consider the benefits to WOTC, but WOTC has to consider the benefits to WOTC.




That is *a* answer.  Has anyone actually ever asked them to make a pull out map?


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## pukunui (Oct 31, 2015)

A thought occurred to me earlier. During 4e's run, WotC put out two FR books. One was a campaign guide designed for DMs. The other was a player's guide designed for players. The campaign guide came with a pull-out map. The player's guide did not.

This new _Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide_ strikes me as being more like 4e's _Forgotten Realms Player's Guide_ than it does either the 3e _Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting_ or the 4e _Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide_.

Yes, the SCAG has setting info in it, but it's presented in a player-friendly way. The SCAG is not *really* a campaign guide. It's a player's guide. The setting info is mainly there to help players get a sense of the world and help them ground their characters in it.

When you think about it that way, it makes sense that there's no pull-out map included.

If WotC ever get around to releasing a full-blown campaign setting book for the Realms that covers all of Faerûn, at the bare minimum, rather than just one quarter of it, then they might very well include a pull-out map with it.


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## Nikosandros (Oct 31, 2015)

Silthen said:


> I disagree, for only $10 more I got a shiny new PHB that was twice as big and used way more ink and paper than it would take for a map.



However, the PHB is expected to sell far more copies and so it has more favorable economy of scale.


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## hawkeyefan (Oct 31, 2015)

I bought my SCAG on Amazon for $30, which gives me $10 to put toward a map. I don't need one, but I like it, and I feel like $22 is a fair price for a quality print. 

I can understand the criticism of WotC not including a fold out map, but I also feel that most buyers would know a removable map was not included. And in the case of a shrink wrapped copy...I'd say to ask the store owner or do some research online to find out if there was such a map.


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 31, 2015)

Exactly. Don't buy a product on day 1 from a place you can't return things to, if there are possible reasons why you wouldn't want to buy it. We all need to be smart shoppers. If you have anyone to blame for a poor purchase, a person needs to blame themselves.


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## akr71 (Oct 31, 2015)

My cartography professor in college taught us that a map has the following:
1 a title
2 a legend
3 a north arrow
4 a scale

Without all 4 it is not a map, just a pretty picture.  Therefore the SCAG map is not a map, just a pretty picture.  I agree, the one in the book should have a scale of some sort.  I still love the digital copy I bought from Mike.  Scale bar and North arrow are present.  One could argue that the file name is the title and that this style of cartography does not require a legend since the land features representations that should be familiar to all.


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## SkidAce (Oct 31, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> I don't.  I didn't expect for a moment any fold out maps from this product.  You don't speak for me, and you don't speak for all consumers.  You speak for yourself.





I "expected" a fold out map.  I however do not think I was entitled to one.  Anecdotally, my six gaming friends were also surprised there wasn't a pull out map.
So I think it is fair to say that a lot of people were surprised by this, which is natural after having had them provided before.

Doesn't mean WotC "had" or was "required" to include one.  And doesn't have any bearing on how people react when they find out there wasn't one.  But expectations were there, in an understandable way.

I think we are having an entitled versus expected mismatch in this thread.


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## SkidAce (Oct 31, 2015)

pukunui said:


> A thought occurred to me earlier. During 4e's run, WotC put out two FR books. One was a campaign guide designed for DMs. The other was a player's guide designed for players. The campaign guide came with a pull-out map. The player's guide did not.
> 
> This new _Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide_ strikes me as being more like 4e's _Forgotten Realms Player's Guide_ than it does either the 3e _Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting_ or the 4e _Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide_.
> 
> ...




Thats an insightful point you made here....


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## hawkeyefan (Oct 31, 2015)

Those features would certainly be required of a map that was intended for use in navigation. However, since the details of the map are all made up, no reason you can't just make up your own scale too.


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

Would you buy a car without tires? No. You do expect it though. The same as you expect it to have a steering wheel. I expect the ONLY option for a 5e Realms setting to have a workable map included. If you don't agree, more power to you. I already said that I based my purchase on good faith based on previous purchases from past editions, that doesn't make me any less smart, I just placed my faith in a company that has done right by me in the past (as far as maps go) and expected more of the same. Thanks for the (largely unconstructive) input, however. Have fun paying extra for something that should've been included already! Glad everyone has extra cash laying around for $136 maps! Even at staples, a poster-sized map is gonna run you $30 extra bucks! Gee, $40 (SCAG) + $10 (digital map) + $30 (Staples) = $80 for a $40 book. Nice. I love my hobby, and buy books when I can afford to, but this is a little ridiculous. Flame on, folks, tell me how wrong I am s'more.


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## carlbobo (Oct 31, 2015)

The $10 digital should be free to those that bought the book due to the horrible layout of this map in said book.


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## hawkeyefan (Oct 31, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Would you buy a car without tires? No. You do expect it though. The same as you expect it to have a steering wheel. I expect the ONLY option for a 5e Realms setting to have a workable map included. If you don't agree, more power to you. I already said that I based my purchase on good faith based on previous purchases from past editions, that doesn't make me any less smart, I just placed my faith in a company that has done right by me in the past (as far as maps go) and expected more of the same. Thanks for the (largely unconstructive) input, however. Have fun paying extra for something that should've been included already! Glad everyone has extra cash laying around for $136 maps! Even at staples, a poster-sized map is gonna run you $30 extra bucks! Gee, $40 (SCAG) + $10 (digital map) + $30 (Staples) = $80 for a $40 book. Nice. I love my hobby, and buy books when I can afford to, but this is a little ridiculous. Flame on, folks, tell me how wrong I am s'more.




I don't think you're wrong or less smart for feeling the way you do. Your basic point is a valid criticism. 

But I think you're removing any of the responsibility for your purchase from yourself. It was your expectation that there would be a fold out map, it was your decision to purchase the book day 1, you didn't ask anyone if a map was included...these are a lot of things within your ability to control.


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

carlbobo said:


> The $10 digital should be free to those that bought the book due to the horrible layout of this map in said book.




I think this is fair. At least this way you could take it to Staples and have it blown up to poster size if you wanted, or you could just keep it handy for calculating travel times (since the digital version appears to have a scale on it).


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

hawkeyefan said:


> I don't think you're wrong or less smart for feeling the way you do. Your basic point is a valid criticism.
> 
> But I think you're removing any of the responsibility for your purchase from yourself. It was your expectation that there would be a fold out map, it was your decision to purchase the book day 1, you didn't ask anyone if a map was included...these are a lot of things within your ability to control.




Again, why would I hold myself responsible for expecting something that's been included in virtually every other setting product since when I started playing back in the days of 1e? I shouldn't have to check and make sure that something like that is included. Imo, it's an essential part of a campaign setting sourcebook. As I said before, they could've at least included a scale on the map so I can calculate travel times.

For the sake of argument, say I didn't have access to the internet. I go and buy the book, discover that there's no pull-out map and that the map included has no scale. How am I supposed to calculate how long it's going to take the PC's to travel from Baldur's Gate to Waterdeep?


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## Mistwell (Oct 31, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Would you buy a car without tires? No. You do expect it though.




A car without tires doesn't function as a car. A campaign setting book with a map, that doesn't fold out, still functions as a campaign setting book.  Bad example.



> Thanks for the (largely unconstructive) input, however. Have fun paying extra for something that should've been included already! Glad everyone has extra cash laying around for $136 maps! Even at staples, a poster-sized map is gonna run you $30 extra bucks! Gee, $40 (SCAG) + $10 (digital map) + $30 (Staples) = $80 for a $40 book. Nice. I love my hobby, and buy books when I can afford to, but this is a little ridiculous. Flame on, folks, tell me how wrong I am s'more.




I thought $23 on Amazon, plus $10 for the digital map, plus $30 at Staples for a blown up map, was a pretty fair deal. You don't, but that's definitely the realm of "constructive" advice on how to save off the $176 you mentioned earlier.  If you want to be bitter at people trying to offer constructive advice then don't complain in the future if people ignore your requests for advice in the future.

I also think you CAN get a return from WOTC.  If they don't respond try Mike Mealrs and Crawford on twitter.  Explain the book was sealed, you thought it had a map, you cannot return it at your store but have a receipt and really want to return it.  I bet they will work with you, or point you to someone in WOTC who will work with you to get a refund somehow.

Personally I would be really angry at a store that shrink wraps books and then doesn't allow returns.  I've never heard of anything like that, and I think WOTC requires returns in their distributor agreements.


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

SkidAce said:


> I "expected" a fold out map.  I however do not think I was entitled to one.  Anecdotally, my six gaming friends were also surprised there wasn't a pull out map.
> So I think it is fair to say that a lot of people were surprised by this, which is natural after having had them provided before.
> 
> Doesn't mean WotC "had" or was "required" to include one.  And doesn't have any bearing on how people react when they find out there wasn't one.  But expectations were there, in an understandable way.
> ...




"Entitled" was a term someone else had applied to my expectations in an earlier post. I don't think it's my God-given right to have a map included, but I did expect one. Most of my posts say "expected", if I said "entitled" it was in error.


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> A car without tires doesn't function as a car. A campaign setting book with a map, that doesn't fold out, still functions as a campaign setting book.  Bad example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




$23 (+ shipping) + $10 digital map + $30 Staples is not a good deal for a $40 book. And a map without a scale (as a campaign resource) is about as worthless as a car without tires. As I said before, they could've, at the very least, included a scale if they were going to screw us out of a fold up map. So, in fact, I think it's an excellent example.


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

Wow. Some people just don't realize when they're getting ripped-off. I'm actually quite surprised that some of you are OK with all this. It's curious how the quality of many products have diminished over the years, but people will keep on buying them. Maybe it's because you have no choice if you want to continue to pursue your interests. Maybe it's because you just don't care. Maybe it's because you're too young to know the value of what you're really getting, compared to how things once were.


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Again, why would I hold myself responsible for expecting something that's been included in virtually every other setting product since when I started playing back in the days of 1e? I shouldn't have to check and make sure that something like that is included. Imo, it's an essential part of a campaign setting sourcebook. As I said before, they could've at least included a scale on the map so I can calculate travel times.
> 
> For the sake of argument, say I didn't have access to the internet. I go and buy the book, discover that there's no pull-out map and that the map included has no scale. How am I supposed to calculate how long it's going to take the PC's to travel from Baldur's Gate to Waterdeep?




Can anyone answer this question?


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## Silthen (Oct 31, 2015)

Just found this. Do yourselves a favor if you haven't bought the map yet, go to Wizards website and get the map for FREE, then take somewhere and have it printed. At least you'll save a few bucks.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/wd_maps/FRposterLarge_150.jpg


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## Cody C. Lewis (Oct 31, 2015)

Honestly, I have not read through all 17 pages so far of comments, but am I the only who _values_ a 30+ some-odd pdf page's worth of a digital map more than a, IMO, poorly executed tear away?

I just keep thinking about how a tear away may not separate evenly; and then I would have to find a place to put it; and when I wanted to use it I would have to have space to unfold it; and when I folded it back enough I would start to see wear; etc etc etc.


----------



## DEFCON 1 (Oct 31, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Wow. Some people just don't realize when they're getting ripped-off. I'm actually quite surprised that some of you are OK with all this. It's curious how the quality of many products have diminished over the years, but people will keep on buying them. Maybe it's because you have no choice if you want to continue to pursue your interests. Maybe it's because you just don't care. Maybe it's because you're too young to know the value of what you're really getting, compared to how things once were.




No... it's actually just that some of us actually pay attention to what we're buying before handing over our money, so we know exactly what we're paying for.  And we don't assume that what we're buying now is the same as something we bought 7 years ago, and rather we double-check first like the intelligent shoppers that we are.  And if the product they present us is worth the money the company is asking of us, we give them our money gladly.  If it isn't... then we don't.  Or at the very least we don't go to a place that won't return it on the off-chance we did feel ripped off after the fact.


----------



## hawkeyefan (Oct 31, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Can anyone answer this question?




Yes. You make it up. It's all made up. 

What difference is it if a book says that the distance is 700 miles but you instead tell your players it's only 300? I decide things like that arbitrarily all the time, and I already have a poster map.


----------



## carlbobo (Oct 31, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Just found this. Do yourselves a favor if you haven't bought the map yet, go to Wizards website and get the map for FREE, then take somewhere and have it printed. At least you'll save a few bucks.
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/wd_maps/FRposterLarge_150.jpg




That map is wrong now. In released modules and in SCAG it says the realms has changed dramatically as far as older maps go.


----------



## Coreyartus (Oct 31, 2015)

Hm.  I think I'd rather pay the artist than pay WotC.  WotC won't pay Mr. Schley what he's worth.  I can print things out on my own.  If they'd have included a print version of the map with the book, I'd never be able to acquire a nice version of my own--I'd be stuck with what they gave me, as no company would allow a high-res version of the map to be available if they were using a print-version to help sell their resource book.

I much much prefer it this way, as I like to support the artist for his work, and the company for their's.  I know how much time and effort artwork takes.  And I know how stupidly inadequate a simple fold-out map would have represented Mr. Schley's work just by looking at it.  I don't take much stock in those who would have desired one--a simple look at the art itself demonstrates how that would have been completely unsatisfactory.  It just comes off as ignorant (and insulting) whining.


----------



## darjr (Oct 31, 2015)

I'd much prefer digital access to the maps. Then I could print it off again and again in different sizes and it's utility far exceeds a pullout map full of creases. I prefer that I don't have to pay for that.


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## JeffB (Oct 31, 2015)

I have little interest in the book.. I love my OGB, gold box,  fra, egttfr, etc..I dont need tbe book,so it is no skin off my back.

But even that little POS 32 page 3e Gaz had a decent enough pull-out map included.  If I did want the SCAG, I personally would be feeling a little ripped off having to pay a substantial amount extra for it on top of $40 for the book itself. I can understand people being upset. Vote with your wallets,  and let em know how you feel. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## pukunui (Nov 1, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Again, why would I hold myself responsible for expecting something that's been included in virtually every other setting product since when I started playing back in the days of 1e? I shouldn't have to check and make sure that something like that is included. Imo, it's an essential part of a campaign setting sourcebook. As I said before, they could've at least included a scale on the map so I can calculate travel times.



As I mentioned in post #148 above, I think the main mistake you're making here is to regard SCAG as a campaign setting book. It's not. It's a player's guide. And, while I could be wrong, I don't think any of the previous FR player's guides came with pull-out maps.

It is unfair to compare this book to the AD&D box sets, the 3e FRCS, or the 4e FRCG. It's more fair to compare it to the 3e _Player's Guide to Faerûn_ or 4e's _Forgotten Realms Player's Guide_. (Not sure if there is a comparable AD&D product.)



Silthen said:


> "Entitled" was a term someone else had applied to my expectations in an earlier post. I don't think it's my God-given right to have a map included, but I did expect one. Most of my posts say "expected", if I said "entitled" it was in error.



Take a look at post #135, in which you state: _"No, actually it DOES mean we are entitled to those maps!"_ Seems like a deliberate choice of the word "entitled" to me.



Silthen said:


> Maybe it's because you're too young to know the value of what you're really getting, compared to how things once were.



I've been playing D&D since the early 90s. I own the 1e FR grey box, the 2e FR gold box, and the 3e FRCS. I have also just happily placed an order for the 5e SCAG now that the Book Depository finally has it in stock. I do not expect it to be as comprehensive as any of those prior editions' books, nor do I expect it to be in the same vein as those books, since I know that - as I said above - it is more of a player's guide than a DM-oriented campaign setting guide. I was not expecting a pull-out map to come with it.



Silthen said:


> Just found this. Do yourselves a favor if you haven't bought the map yet, go to Wizards website and get the map for FREE, then take somewhere and have it printed. At least you'll save a few bucks.



That is the 3e era map. It's fairly out of date now.


----------



## Parmandur (Nov 1, 2015)

Well, it can still work for things like scale, or you can play 5Ein 1373 easily.


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## pukunui (Nov 1, 2015)

Parmandur said:


> Well, it can still work for things like scale, or you can play 5Ein 1373 easily.



True. Although, as Chris Perkins himself put it, there has been some "scale drift" over the years. But I guess if you pick a map and stick with it, that doesn't really matter. And there's no real consistency between any of the Next/5e FR regional maps anyway ...


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## Parmandur (Nov 1, 2015)

Honestly, working with the Tyranny if Dragons maps and those in the SCAG should work well enough.


----------



## pukunui (Nov 1, 2015)

Parmandur said:


> Honestly, working with the Tyranny if Dragons maps and those in the SCAG should work well enough.



It's worth noting that Jared Blando didn't put a scale on his Sword Coast map (the one in HotDQ) either.

I think it's also worth noting that Schley's new map looks more like the 2e era map than the 3e or 4e era maps, particularly in terms of the roads.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 1, 2015)

pukunui said:


> A thought occurred to me earlier. During 4e's run, WotC put out two FR books. One was a campaign guide designed for DMs. The other was a player's guide designed for players. The campaign guide came with a pull-out map. The player's guide did not.
> 
> This new _Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide_ strikes me as being more like 4e's _Forgotten Realms Player's Guide_ than it does either the 3e _Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting_ or the 4e _Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide_.
> 
> ...




This is something I've been mulling over as well. SCAG has virtually nothing that is out and out "DM material"; it's filled with info that both the player and DM can use. Even the actual city/nation descriptions are general (and presented as hearsay by NPCs who have supposedly been there) with little "hard" info. It does seem to me to be much more of a "Player's Guide" than an out and out "Campaign Setting".


----------



## pukunui (Nov 1, 2015)

Exactly! It's the 5e equivalent of 3e's _Player's Guide to Faerûn_ and 4e's _Forgotten Realms Player's Guide_. Both of those books contain player options along with some setting info to give players a taste of the setting.

(EDIT: I'm not 100% sure about the 3e book, but I once owned the 4e FRPG, so I can state for a fact that not only did it not come with a pull-out map but it also did not even show as much of a map as the SCAG does. The 4e FPRG just had some little pieces of the map that came with the FRCG to go along with some of the regional backgrounds and such.)

I mean, come on, _Sword Coast *Adventurer's* Guide_ ... is that not enough of a clue? Not only is this not a Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting guide, it's not even a Sword Coast Campaign Setting guide. It's a *player's* guide to the Sword Coast.

It even says as much on the product page: _"While the Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide is a valuable resource for Dungeon Masters, it was crafted with players and their characters foremost in mind. There is a plethora of new character options to intrigue and inspire every member of the adventuring party."_


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Nov 1, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Exactly! It's the 5e equivalent of 3e's _Player's Guide to Faerûn_ and 4e's _Forgotten Realms Player's Guide_. Both of those books contain player options along with some setting info to give players a taste of the setting.
> 
> (EDIT: I'm not 100% sure about the 3e book, but I once owned the 4e FRPG, so I can state for a fact that not only did it not come with a pull-out map but it also did not even show as much of a map as the SCAG does. The 4e FPRG just had some little pieces of the map that came with the FRCG to go along with some of the regional backgrounds and such.)
> 
> ...




I've actually been considering making a fairly long post on the subject of SCAG vs a potential FRCS, and what we may or may not see in the future based on what was covered, and what was not covered, in SCAG.


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## pukunui (Nov 1, 2015)

Go for it!


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## Parmandur (Nov 1, 2015)

I would be interested in your speculations.

If they wanted to so a more DM centered campaign guide, I'd rather see a box set, with poster maps an adventure like Lost Mines, etc..


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 1, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Go for it!




OK, I'll see what I can put together in the next few days...


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## EthanSental (Nov 1, 2015)

I just printed a 24x36 poster of the Tyranny of dragons painting on card stock on vista print for about $20 bucks plus 7 for shipping - came in today and looks great.  I'd recommend at least looking into that option if your looking to print a large poster.


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## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

DEFCON 1 said:


> No... it's actually just that some of us actually pay attention to what we're buying before handing over our money, so we know exactly what we're paying for.  And we don't assume that what we're buying now is the same as something we bought 7 years ago, and rather we double-check first like the intelligent shoppers that we are.  And if the product they present us is worth the money the company is asking of us, we give them our money gladly.  If it isn't... then we don't.  Or at the very least we don't go to a place that won't return it on the off-chance we did feel ripped off after the fact.





Sounds like you're just too blind to see what a good value is and what isn't. Probably used to getting ripped off yourself and can't tell the difference anymore.


----------



## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

hawkeyefan said:


> Yes. You make it up. It's all made up.
> 
> What difference is it if a book says that the distance is 700 miles but you instead tell your players it's only 300? I decide things like that arbitrarily all the time, and I already have a poster map.





Lol, ok, dude, thanks for the input.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 1, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Sounds like you're just too blind to see what a good value is and what isn't. Probably used to getting ripped off yourself and can't tell the difference anymore.




Calm the hell down, please, and stop insulting people.


----------



## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

pukunui said:


> As I mentioned in post #148 above, I think the main mistake you're making here is to regard SCAG as a campaign setting book. It's not. It's a player's guide. And, while I could be wrong, I don't think any of the previous FR player's guides came with pull-out maps.
> 
> It is unfair to compare this book to the AD&D box sets, the 3e FRCS, or the 4e FRCG. It's more fair to compare it to the 3e _Player's Guide to Faerûn_ or 4e's _Forgotten Realms Player's Guide_. (Not sure if there is a comparable AD&D product.)
> 
> ...




Regardless, I don't feel that God or the government should knock on my door and hand me a map. I admitted that my choice of words was erroneous already. As far as the map being out of date, various WoTC employees have stated that the Realms has returned to the state it was in, geographically, before the Sundering, so I fail to see how the old map is out of date.


----------



## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Exactly! It's the 5e equivalent of 3e's _Player's Guide to Faerûn_ and 4e's _Forgotten Realms Player's Guide_. Both of those books contain player options along with some setting info to give players a taste of the setting.
> 
> (EDIT: I'm not 100% sure about the 3e book, but I once owned the 4e FRPG, so I can state for a fact that not only did it not come with a pull-out map but it also did not even show as much of a map as the SCAG does. The 4e FPRG just had some little pieces of the map that came with the FRCG to go along with some of the regional backgrounds and such.)
> 
> ...




Seeing's how this is the ONLY sourcebook to contain setting material for the Realms thus far (other than what can be found in the various adventures that have already been released), why would they NOT invlude a decent map?! You can't run an adventure without a DM, so even if this book was "crafted" for the players, throw the DM a bone and give him something to work with. A better idea would've been to release an official campaign setting first! Or, as I've said many times before, at least have the common sense to put a famn scale on the map so the DM can plot some travel times!


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## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Calm the hell down, please, and stop insulting people.



 My response was no less insulting than his. There have been more than a few posts about "being a smart shopper", etc., that have implied that I'm ignorant or something for having faith in WoTC and buying SCAG without first doing research.


----------



## pukunui (Nov 1, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Seeing's how this is the ONLY sourcebook to contain setting material for the Realms thus far (other than what can be found in the various adventures that have already been released), why would they NOT invlude a decent map?!



For the reasons I've already stated above.



> ... throw the DM a bone and give him something to work with.



Which is exactly what they have done by allowing the cartographer to sell a digital version of the map, which does have a scale on it. And if WotC manages to get to $100k on their Extra Life donations, they'll even release that map for free!

The DM can also go to dndclassics.com and buy 30 years' worth of FR setting material in digital format. If, as you say, the 3e era map you found should not be considered out of date, why should any of the setting material contained in the 1e, 2e, and 3e books be considered so?


----------



## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

DEFCON 1 said:


> No... it's actually just that some of us actually pay attention to what we're buying before handing over our money, so we know exactly what we're paying for.  And we don't assume that what we're buying now is the same as something we bought 7 years ago, and rather we double-check first like the intelligent shoppers that we are.  And if the product they present us is worth the money the company is asking of us, we give them our money gladly.  If it isn't... then we don't.  Or at the very least we don't go to a place that won't return it on the off-chance we did feel ripped off after the fact.




I find this post incredibly insulting, Morrus, but no one said anything about it. His attitude is extremely condescending.


----------



## hawkeyefan (Nov 1, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Lol, ok, dude, thanks for the input.




I think the DMG provides travel times for certain distances, if I recall correctly; I don't have my books handy at the moment, so I could be thinking of some other resource. 

But either way, applying a scale is pretty easy. Take two points...let's use your example of Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate...decide how much time you'd like for it to take travelers in your game to get from one location to the other and then record how much distance it would take for people to travel that length of time. Take a piece of paper, mark the distance between the two cities on the edge, and then use that to create a scale.

Yes that may require a little more time on your part...but it is an alternative to buying a map, which is what you asked for. And what Campaign or Player's Guide didn't require a little work on our part? 

I'm not saying this to try to upset you, just to let you know that a poster map isn't as absolutely necessary as you seem to view it.


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## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

pukunui said:


> For the reasons I've already stated above.
> 
> Which is exactly what they have done by allowing the cartographer to sell a digital version of the map, which does have a scale on it. And if WotC manages to get to $100k on their Extra Life donations, they'll even release that map for free!
> 
> The DM can also go to dndclassics.com and buy 30 years' worth of FR setting material in digital format. If, as you say, the 3e era map you found should not be considered out of date, why should any of the setting material contained in the 1e, 2e, and 3e books be considered so?




Why would I buy old FR material from dndclassics.com when I can get the map for FREE from wizards.com. That's my point.


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## JeffB (Nov 1, 2015)

Silthen said:


> I find this post incredibly insulting, Morrus, but no one said anything about it. His attitude is extremely condescending.




First rule of enworld, dont call out moderation in thread.  Send a pm

That said, there are a handful of folks around here who think wizards blows sunshine and rainbows out their buttholes and everyone who has a disagreement with their new completely different business model vs. the past 40  years, is a moron and should just suck it up.  

Everything is wonderful. Move along.


----------



## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

hawkeyefan said:


> I think the DMG provides travel times for certain distances, if I recall correctly; I don't have my books handy at the moment, so I could be thinking of some other resource.
> 
> But either way, applying a scale is pretty easy. Take two points...let's use your example of Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate...decide how much time you'd like for it to take travelers in your game to get from one location to the other and then record how much distance it would take for people to travel that length of time. Take a piece of paper, mark the distance between the two cities on the edge, and then use that to create a scale.
> 
> ...




Or they could've just put a scale on the map and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and a lot less people would be upset.


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## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

Why is it that when someone has an opposing viewpoint that many (not all) of the people that frequent these forums have to belittle those that feel different? I've seen it all over the place here. We're gamers. I fancy ourselves an intellectual lot. We SHOULD be working together rather than arguing amongst ourselves. If my attitude has diminished, it's only because of post after post of people essential slamming me.


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## hawkeyefan (Nov 1, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Or they could've just put a scale on the map and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and a lot less people would be upset.




Sure. I understand that and I acknowledge that it's a valid complaint. 

But, without brin g able to travel back in time and remind them not to edit the scale off of the in-book map, I'll take my solution of creating my own scale as a viable solution to having to buy a map.

Just offerings you an alternative to buying the map.


----------



## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

JeffB said:


> First rule of enworld, dont call out moderation in thread.  Send a pm
> 
> That said, there are a handful of folks around here who think wizards blows sunshine and rainbows out their buttholes and everyone who has a disagreement with their new completely different business model vs. the past 40  years, is a moron and should just suck it up.
> 
> Everything is wonderful. Move along.




1. Wasn't aware of the "first rule".

2. I'd say it's more than a "handful".


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## Morrus (Nov 1, 2015)

Silthen said:


> My response was no less insulting than his. There have been more than a few posts about "being a smart shopper", etc., that have implied that I'm ignorant or something for having faith in WoTC and buying SCAG without first doing research.




As you agreed when you joined (not that long ago), do not derail threads with moderation arguments. If you can't remember the rules, they're conveniently linked at the bottom of every page for freely available refreshers.


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## Morrus (Nov 1, 2015)

Silthen said:


> I find this post incredibly insulting, Morrus, but no one said anything about it. His attitude is extremely condescending.




Did you report it? I don't read every post on the forums. Again, please keep moderation discussion out of the threads. Report posts you find problematic.


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## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

hawkeyefan said:


> Sure. I understand that and I acknowledge that it's a valid complaint.
> 
> But, without brin g able to travel back in time and remind them not to edit the scale off of the in-book map, I'll take my solution of creating my own scale as a viable solution to having to buy a map.
> 
> Just offerings you an alternative to buying the map.





Or I can just go here. For free.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/wd_maps/


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## Silthen (Nov 1, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Did you report it? I don't read every post on the forums. Again, please keep moderation discussion out of the threads. Report posts you find problematic.



 Gotcha.


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## hawkeyefan (Nov 2, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Or I can just go here. For free.
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/wd_maps/




Sure. That was another alternative I mentioned earlier.

That link doesnt work for me, but if it's the same one you posted earlier, then it's the 3rd edition map that came with the Campaign Guide. It's a great map, and the one I've been using for my 5E campaign so far. Many will point out that it's a bit outdated due to some changes...but none of that has to matter.


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## Silthen (Nov 4, 2015)

Oops, sorry, the end of the link got cut off somehow.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/wd_maps/FRposterLarge_150.jpg

What's different about the old map? I haven't really compared it with the new one. Are the changes minor?


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## Silthen (Nov 4, 2015)

To be honest, I plan on using the map in the link anyways, I've just been away from the Realms for awhile and I'm wondering what's different now. My understanding was that the Sundering was supposed to "repair" all the geographic changes caused by the Spellplague, and return the Realms to the state it was in previously. Just not sure what pre-Sundering changes to the map ocurred after I quit playing, which was a couple years before 4e came out.


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## pukunui (Nov 4, 2015)

Here's the 4e FR map.

Major changes: 

*Much of the Old Empires were replaced with realms from Abeir
*Maztica was replaced with a continent called Returned Abeir
*Much of the Sea of Fallen Stars drained into the Underdark
*The Great Rift, home of the gold dwarves, got even bigger and was renamed the Underchasm
*Halruaa was completely destroyed
*The Netherese turned Anauroch into fertile land again
*Lantan and Luiren sank
*Chult became an island


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## Silthen (Nov 4, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Here's the 4e FR map.
> 
> Major changes:
> 
> ...




Right, but I had read that the Sundering was supposed to reverse the changes created by the Spellplague and the merging of Abeir and Toril, that the map was returning to the state it was in before 4e. So, are there other non-Spellplague-related changes that have occurred to the geography that would still be present after the Sundering?


----------



## hawkeyefan (Nov 4, 2015)

From what I've seen (my SCAG is being shipped so I have only seen the map online) the 5E terrain looks similar enough to the 3E terrain that you should be fine. 

The locations seem to line up pretty well. What seems to have changed is the state the locations are in (Neverwinter after Hotenow erupts) and the roads, and some things like that. 

I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure you can get by with the old map.


----------



## pukunui (Nov 4, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Right, but I had read that the Sundering was supposed to reverse the changes created by the Spellplague and the merging of Abeir and Toril, that the map was returning to the state it was in before 4e. So, are there other non-Spellplague-related changes that have occurred to the geography that would still be present after the Sundering?



Only WotC knows.

That being said, as I mentioned before, Mike Schley's new map bears a closer resemblance to the 1e/2e maps of old than it does to the 3e/4e maps.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 4, 2015)

Silthen said:


> Right, but I had read that the Sundering was supposed to reverse the changes created by the Spellplague and the merging of Abeir and Toril, that the map was returning to the state it was in before 4e. So, are there other non-Spellplague-related changes that have occurred to the geography that would still be present after the Sundering?




For the most part, everything is back to 3e more or less, with a few minor changes and left-overs from 4e. Elturgard still covers a good section of the Western Heartlands; Tymanther, the dragonborn nation which replaced Unther, has, in turn, been mostly been replaced by Unther's return, but a remnant of Tymanther still remains along the Alamber Sea; and the serpent kingdom of Najara (which is actually of late 3e vintage) is still there to the northeast of the Boarskyr Bridge...


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## carlbobo (Nov 4, 2015)

Distances have changed as well. Toril has gotten a lot bigger.


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## pukunui (Nov 4, 2015)

carlbobo said:


> Distances have changed as well. Toril has gotten a lot bigger.



Or smaller. Depending on which map you're looking at. So far, none of the 5e maps have been consistent, scale-wise, despite Mike's efforts at making them all overlap so beautifully.


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## carlbobo (Nov 4, 2015)

Not smaller, bigger. A few of the AL mods post distances and they are way over as far as 3 & 4 FR maps are concerned. So definitely not smaller.


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## Baumi (Nov 4, 2015)

I don't quite get the purpose of the PDF. Are there any more details (roads, cities, etc.) in it or are there layeres to switch off certain landmarks?


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## pukunui (Nov 4, 2015)

[MENTION=16702]carlbobo[/MENTION]: I meant that it's either bigger or smaller depending on what map you're looking at. There's been no real consistency when it comes to the scale, which Chris Perkins brushed off with his "scale drift" comment.

  [MENTION=2569]Baumi[/MENTION]: The purpose of the pdf is to allow you to just use certain sections of the map at high resolution. There's nothing to toggle on or off, unfortunately.


----------



## gyor (Nov 4, 2015)

Demetrios1453 said:


> For the most part, everything is back to 3e more or less, with a few minor changes and left-overs from 4e. Elturgard still covers a good section of the Western Heartlands; Tymanther, the dragonborn nation which replaced Unther, has, in turn, been mostly been replaced by Unther's return, but a remnant of Tymanther still remains along the Alamber Sea; and the serpent kingdom of Najara (which is actually of late 3e vintage) is still there to the northeast of the Boarskyr Bridge...




 Also Dambrath is still ruled by Werecreatures (and I assume still has shifters).

 And Mulhorand and Unther are closer to being like 1e then 3e, but with unique 5e twists, like an end to slavery, and a very different geopolitical situation.


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## designbot (Nov 4, 2015)

pukunui said:


> That being said, as I mentioned before, Mike Schley's new map bears a closer resemblance to the 1e/2e maps of old than it does to the 3e/4e maps.




All of Mike Schley's maps have been internally consistent (other than the WotC-mandated scale issues), and now it's clear why. The overview map in SCAG is unquestionably based on the 1e or 2e map—probably traced over, in fact.

1e vs. 5e:

View attachment 71615

2e vs. 5e:

View attachment 71616

3e vs. 5e:

View attachment 71617

4e vs. 5e:

View attachment 71618

I think the small variance from the 1/2e map is probably mostly due to distortion in the scans that I'm using. The 3/4e coastline goes off at a completely different angle.


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## designbot (Nov 4, 2015)

pukunui said:


> @_*Baumi*_: The purpose of the pdf is to allow you to just use certain sections of the map at high resolution. There's nothing to toggle on or off, unfortunately.




Not completely accurate—the PDF does include a version with and without labels.


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## designbot (Nov 4, 2015)

_[Moved map to earlier post]_


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## pukunui (Nov 4, 2015)

designbot said:


> Not completely accurate—the PDF does include a version with and without labels.



I meant in terms of extra stuff. There's nothing extra in the zoomed in maps. I think he just offered the tiled version to make it easier to print.


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## Hussar (Nov 5, 2015)

Y'know, hyperbole aside, there is a point here.  Cutting off the scale is not a good thing.  Maps should always have a scale.  That's just basic fundamentals of maps.  To pull out or not pull out, is a question I don't want to answer.  But, no scale is certainly something to criticize over.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 5, 2015)

designbot said:


> All of Mike Schley's maps have been internally consistent (other than the WotC-mandated scale issues), and now it's clear why. The overview map in SCAG is unquestionably based on the 1e or 2e map—probably traced over, in fact.
> 
> Here is a comparison of 2e to 5e:
> 
> ...





The 1e and 2e maps were basically very consistent with each other. It was 3e (which is actually the edition of the second map there, not 4e) that changed things around, and on purpose. It caused quite a kerfluffle among FR fans at the time when the not only the new map was quite inconsistent with what came before, but, if I remember correctly, actual pictures of the 2e map having pieces cut out and the remainder being re-arranged to create a 3e map that would all fit onto one square map, with some of the larger areas of wilderness purposely removed simply because they took up too much dead space...

I am quite happy to see things being returned to the original standard...


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## designbot (Nov 5, 2015)

Demetrios1453 said:


> It was 3e (which is actually the edition of the second map there, not 4e) that changed things around, and on purpose.




I'll update that.


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## Greyson (Nov 5, 2015)

*Schley's Map Rules*

I tried to read through this whole thread. But,  [MENTION=6795434]Silthen[/MENTION] and his determined debate was too much and way off topic. By page seventeen I gave up. 

My purpose for posting today is to praise the recent Schley FR map. I think it's great. I used the 15% discount, which was a nice little perk. It's great work and will get immediate use at our table for myriad campaigning in the Realms. The potential for this map goes way beyond SCAG. I think a conversation about this particular map transcends its relationship to one product. 

I can print for my own needs, so I am not too caught-up in the challenges of printing the map.

I'd call this work "map art." I did see earlier in the thread a few posts about what is and what is not a map. To me, it's more fantasy art in map form. 

Another great piece by Schley. Looking forward to what he offers next. His work is always really well done. Lot's of free stuff out there, but I'll gladly pay for Schely's quality and support a fellow gamer


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## Ricochet (Nov 6, 2015)

An amazing map!


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## wedgeski (Nov 6, 2015)

Hussar said:


> Y'know, hyperbole aside, there is a point here.  Cutting off the scale is not a good thing.  Maps should always have a scale.  That's just basic fundamentals of maps.  To pull out or not pull out, is a question I don't want to answer.  But, no scale is certainly something to criticize over.



I gotta agree. That's a silly oversight.


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## spongebob1138 (Nov 9, 2015)

For 11.00 I had the map printed at Staples. Came out great!View attachment 71771


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## JohnLynch (Nov 9, 2015)

The more I look at this map the more I realize it's far superior to the 3e/4e free maps.


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## darjr (Nov 9, 2015)

[MENTION=6795430]spongebob1138[/MENTION] Nice! What size?


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## spongebob1138 (Nov 9, 2015)

darjr said:


> [MENTION=6795430]spongebob1138[/MENTION] Nice! What size?




36" X 48"  It's big.  I'll either laminate it at work or put it in a frame from Michael's...

Sorry, just noticed the pic uploaded upside down...


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## graves3141 (Nov 9, 2015)

spongebob1138 said:


> 36" X 48"  It's big.  I'll either laminate it at work or put it in a frame from Michael's...
> 
> Sorry, just noticed the pic uploaded upside down...




How on earth were you able to get that printed for $11?  I just called my local staples and they quoted me a price of $25 before tax... and that was for a 24 x 36 version.  I needs to know your secrets.

BTW, it looks like the D&D Extra life thing may give us all the map for free in less than a week.  It's now has less than $1,500 to go before the map gets released for free (which I think would be an excellent shot in the arm for our hobby).  I just hope WotC doesn't change the rules at the last minute or something.


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## Sword of Spirit (Nov 9, 2015)

I'm hoping the artist gets paid some sort of bonus if the map comes out for free. It would suck if he suddenly lost income because of it.


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## darjr (Nov 10, 2015)

Well it might work in his favor. Lots of folks will hear about him and it's not like I'd give him less money. I'd just get one more map that is on the bubble.

But I'll bet he's in on it.


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## Hutchimus Prime (Nov 10, 2015)

graves3141 said:


> BTW, it looks like the D&D Extra life thing may give us all the map for free in less than a week.  It's now has less than $1,500 to go before the map gets released for free (which I think would be an excellent shot in the arm for our hobby).  I just hope WotC doesn't change the rules at the last minute or something.




I bet it'll just a plain image of the map, not at the high resolution and size of what Mike's offering. Probably no tiles either. That's just my guess thought.


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## EthanSental (Nov 10, 2015)

Nicely done S-Bob, and at a great price!


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## JohnLynch (Nov 10, 2015)

Sword of Spirit said:


> I'm hoping the artist gets paid some sort of bonus if the map comes out for free. It would suck if he suddenly lost income because of it.



It's quite possible it will be released at a lower resolution. Regardless I doubt they'll release one without labels.


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## spongebob1138 (Nov 10, 2015)

graves3141 said:


> How on earth were you able to get that printed for $11?  I just called my local staples and they quoted me a price of $25 before tax... and that was for a 24 x 36 version.  I needs to know your secrets.
> 
> BTW, it looks like the D&D Extra life thing may give us all the map for free in less than a week.  It's now has less than $1,500 to go before the map gets released for free (which I think would be an excellent shot in the arm for our hobby).  I just hope WotC doesn't change the rules at the last minute or something.




If you go to the Staples website and look at the printing section, look for "engineering prints".  That's what you want. Upload your map, pick your size, and you should be good to go. My 36x48 poster was 11.89.


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## EthanSental (Nov 10, 2015)

What size file did you upload? That was the only drawback to my attempt to use vistaprint, file was too large.


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## graves3141 (Nov 10, 2015)

Hutchimus Prime said:


> I bet it'll just a plain image of the map, not at the high resolution and size of what Mike's offering. Probably no tiles either. That's just my guess thought.




I'm wondering exactly what is going to be released too.  On the Extra Life site, it says a "hi-res" version of the map but that may not mean as high as the resolution that is offered on Mike's site.  Either way, we'll know fairly soon.


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## Tyranthraxus (Nov 10, 2015)

I also attempted to use Vistaprint. The picture file is 50 meg and the PDF.. well the PDF is a LOT bigger. Uploading it would probably crash my connection.  I literally could not send a 50 meg file to my local print and copy place to give me a quote (I HATE it when they try on that BS.. it was a case of 'Send it to us so we can give you a quote? ' GRR).

Im wanting a Vinyl copy or Canvas in Color and Pixel wise the main map is 269 cm by 174 cm. Im finding it very hard to find a place that can do that. Do Vistaprint do Vinyl? 

Am starting to think I wont find a place that can do the map that big. Whats the biggest version someone out there has done?


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## spongebob1138 (Nov 10, 2015)

EthanSental said:


> What size file did you upload? That was the only drawback to my attempt to use vistaprint, file was too large.




I uploaded the jpeg file, whatever size that was.  You need to then select fit to size/shrink to fit or something like that, and then I adjusted the window so that I wouldn't print white space on the top and bottom. For those just joining us, this is Staples I'm talking about.  I sent the print job at lunchtime, and picked it up at 5 after work.  I'm really happy with it. I just hope my laminator at work is wise enough...I don't remember its size.


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## spongebob1138 (Nov 10, 2015)

Tyranthraxus said:


> I also attempted to use Vistaprint. The picture file is 50 meg and the PDF.. well the PDF is a LOT bigger. Uploading it would probably crash my connection.  I literally could not send a 50 meg file to my local print and copy place to give me a quote (I HATE it when they try on that BS.. it was a case of 'Send it to us so we can give you a quote? ' GRR).
> 
> Im wanting a Vinyl copy or Canvas in Color and Pixel wise the main map is 269 cm by 174 cm. Im finding it very hard to find a place that can do that. Do Vistaprint do Vinyl?
> 
> Am starting to think I wont find a place that can do the map that big. Whats the biggest version someone out there has done?




Mine is 36" by 48"


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## pukunui (Nov 10, 2015)

Tyranthraxus said:


> Whats the biggest version someone out there has done?



My money's on this one:






(source)


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## Tyranthraxus (Nov 10, 2015)

is this your Pukunni? If so can you tell me where this was done? Is it Polyester or Canvas/Cloth?


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## pukunui (Nov 10, 2015)

Tyranthraxus said:


> is this your Pukunni? If so can you tell me where this was done? Is it Polyester or Canvas/Cloth?



I wish! Mike Schley posted it on Twitter. You might be able to find out more about it here.


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## Hussar (Nov 10, 2015)

spongebob1138 said:


> For 11.00 I had the map printed at Staples. Came out great!View attachment 71771




How come they printed it upside down?  Maybe that's why it was so cheap


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## lkj (Nov 13, 2015)

So I notice that the Extra Life team hit their goal:

http://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.team&teamID=21011

And there is a live link presumably pointing to the map:

http://media.wizards.com/2015/images/dnd/resources/Sword-Coast-Map_HighRes.jpg

But I can't go to the wizards' site from work. So someone else will have to verify it works.

AD


The site


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## Jester David (Nov 13, 2015)

lkj said:


> So I notice that the Extra Life team hit their goal:
> 
> http://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.team&teamID=21011
> 
> ...




Looks like it works.
Damn is this thing huge.


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## pukunui (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm on my phone right now, but I don't think it's quite as big as the full version you can buy from Mike. Will have to double check later.

Also, I note that they corrected the spelling of Elversult, but they didn't put the missing city icons on this map (like they did with Mike's corrected version) and Marsember is still where Suzail should be (which is another thing that got fixed on Mike's map).

So there are now three versions of this map: the cropped one in the book, this one, and the (mostly) corrected version* you can buy from Mike.


*Elversult is still misspelled on Mike's version. And yes, I know this is picayune stuff, but I can't help but notice discrepancies like these. I don't even go looking for them. They just jump out at me. WotC really ought to hire me as a proofreader/map-checker.


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## Jester David (Nov 13, 2015)

pukunui said:


> I'm on my phone right now, but I don't think it's quite as big as the full version you can buy from Mike. Will have to double check later.
> 
> Also, I note that they corrected the spelling of Elversult, but they didn't put the missing city icons on this map (like they did with Mike's corrected version) and Marsember is still where Suzail should be (which is another thing that got fixed on Mike's map).
> 
> ...




Photoshop puts it at 10,200 x 6600 pixels or 141 x 91 inches.


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## designbot (Nov 13, 2015)

Jester Canuck said:


> Photoshop puts it at 10,200 x 6600 pixels or 141 x 91 inches.



That is the same resolution as the map you can buy from Mike.


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## machineelf (Nov 13, 2015)

I printed mine out at about 28 inches on the short side, not sure how long on the long side, and had it laminated. It looks great at that size. Here's a photo with books for size comparison.

View attachment 71830


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## darjr (Nov 13, 2015)

Yea, way cool. How much did that cost you? Where did you do it?


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## pukunui (Nov 13, 2015)

Jester Canuck said:


> Photoshop puts it at 10,200 x 6600 pixels or 141 x 91 inches.





designbot said:


> That is the same resolution as the map you can buy from Mike.



OK. I couldn't tell from my phone. Still, I'm pretty happy with the one I purchased from Mike. I don't know if I'll ever bother to get it printed, though. If I were, it'd only be at A3 cos that's the biggest size I can do for free.


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## graves3141 (Nov 13, 2015)

I just downloaded it.  Great map, clocks in at 25.9mb and it's a jpg file.  I really like it a lot, maybe a few too many circles though .  I'd like a physical copy too... someday maybe.


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## pukunui (Nov 13, 2015)

graves3141 said:


> I really like it a lot, maybe a few too many circles though .



By too many circles, do you mean too many cities marked on the map? I'll agree that there a few areas where it feels like there are too many named locations - the Purple Rocks spring to mind (it feels like they must have something planned for that location) - but I also feel like there are some places that are missing that really should've been included. They could've at least put Athkatla on the map, since it's the capital of Amn, for instance. And it would've been cool if they'd marked all the starter towns from the adventures - Greenest, Red Larch, Phandalin, etc.



> I'd like a physical copy too... someday maybe.



To be honest, while I could probably get an A2 or A1 print through a friend easily enough, I really don't know what I would do with it. I haven't got the storage space, for one thing, and I think it's just easier for me to show people the map on the computer. I can zoom in on the relevant sections as needed or pop it up on the big screen TV.


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## graves3141 (Nov 14, 2015)

pukunui said:


> By too many circles, do you mean too many cities marked on the map? I'll agree that there a few areas where it feels like there are too many named locations - the Purple Rocks spring to mind (it feels like they must have something planned for that location) - but I also feel like there are some places that are missing that really should've been included. They could've at least put Athkatla on the map, since it's the capital of Amn, for instance. And it would've been cool if they'd marked all the starter towns from the adventures - Greenest, Red Larch, Phandalin, etc.




There are circles everywhere dude.  In the hills, grasslands, etc...  I agree that it would have been a nice touch to have things like Red Larch and Phandalin marked on the map too.


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## Sword of Spirit (Nov 14, 2015)

Nice map. Looks like there are only a few differences from the 3e FRCS map (mostly roads), so it's pretty useful for me in my 1370 DR game.


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## pukunui (Nov 14, 2015)

graves3141 said:


> There are circles everywhere dude.  In the hills, grasslands, etc...  I agree that it would have been a nice touch to have things like Red Larch and Phandalin marked on the map too.



Ah. I see what you mean. Yes, there are a lot of circles.



Sword of Spirit said:


> Nice map. Looks like there are only a few differences from the 3e FRCS map (mostly roads), so it's pretty useful for me in my 1370 DR game.



Yeah, the roads have mostly gone back to looking like they did on the AD&D era maps. That is to say, 1e/2e and 5e maps only shows actual roads, whereas the 3e and 4e maps showed both roads and trails.


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## Sword of Spirit (Nov 14, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Yeah, the roads have mostly gone back to looking like they did on the AD&D era maps. That is to say, 1e/2e and 5e maps only shows actual roads, whereas the 3e and 4e maps showed both roads and trails.




Ah...I didn't compare it to my AD&D maps. Good to know.


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## spongebob1138 (Nov 14, 2015)

And distances are off.  Compare the distance between Neverwinter and Waterdeep on the 3rd edition map and now on this one...but they do say in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide that "stories circulated of known destinations being farther away from one another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them" (p. 18).

My Staples printed it for me actual size, and it is frickin' enormous.  They gave it to me for free, too!  I ordered a 24x36 engineering print, and when I came in they had this huge one, too.  Guy said they often print actual size when people order something smaller because people are sometimes disappointed and want it larger.  Go figure.


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## spongebob1138 (Nov 14, 2015)

Here are three sizes.  24x36, which I laminated, 36x48, and actual size of map.  Swords in pic for scale View attachment 71835


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## pukunui (Nov 14, 2015)

spongebob1138 said:


> And distances are off.  Compare the distance between Neverwinter and Waterdeep on the 3rd edition map and now on this one...but they do say in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide that "stories circulated of known destinations being farther away from one another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them" (p. 18).



LOL. That'll be a sly reference to Chris Perkins' "scale drift" comment from a while back.



> My Staples printed it for me actual size, and it is frickin' enormous.  They gave it to me for free, too!  I ordered a 24x36 engineering print, and when I came in they had this huge one, too.  Guy said they often print actual size when people order something smaller because people are sometimes disappointed and want it larger.  Go figure.



Lucky! I don't think any of the NZ equivalent stores would do anything like that.


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## JohnLynch (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm glad they've gone back to the 1e/2e scale. The idea of "Faerun is too big" fed directly into "every nook and cranny has been detailed" which fed into "let's blow up half the Realms." People who want to gloss over travel times can easily do it without shrinking down the Realms.


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## Sword of Spirit (Nov 14, 2015)

Yeah, this is a really good scale. I didn't realized that the scale had drifted over the product line. From what I can tell, the scale was even bigger than this on the maps in the 2e The North boxed set, but that was probably a tad bit excessive. I do like this better than the 3e one. This scale makes Faerun pretty close in size to the Flanaess on Oerth, which for some reason makes me happy.


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## machineelf (Nov 14, 2015)

darjr said:


> Yea, way cool. How much did that cost you? Where did you do it?




It cost a fair bit of change. I got it printed on a slightly nicer paper than the standard grade paper, and got it laminated, so all in all at that size it cost me about $65 I think. I figure that it's a map that now will last my lifetime and be useful for years of playing, and I don't mind spending money on D&D stuff because it's one of my main hobbies.

I got it printed at a local print shop in my city.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 15, 2015)

JeffB said:


> That said, there are a handful of folks around here who think wizards blows sunshine and rainbows out their buttholes and everyone who has a disagreement with their new completely different business model vs. the past 40  years, is a moron and should just suck it up.
> 
> Everything is wonderful. Move along.





Well, the business model of the last decade and a half was marked by the cyclical layoffs.  At least they don't do that anymore.  Mostly because they have so few people working there and farm out their products but at least folks know where they'll be come the holidays.


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## moldyderp (Dec 16, 2015)

spongebob1138 said:


> I uploaded the jpeg file, whatever size that was.  You need to then select fit to size/shrink to fit or something like that, and then I adjusted the window so that I wouldn't print white space on the top and bottom.




I can't figure out how you adjusted the window so that you wouldn't print white space? My image is uploaded and shrunk to fit the 36x48 engineering print they offer, but I have white space on the top and bottom, and cannot figure out how to manipulate the canvas to prevent that.


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