# What Happens If CODENAME: MORNINGSTAR Doesn't Fund?



## Xorial (Dec 22, 2014)

Personally, I think the target to fund is what setting people off. I realize that they likely actually need that much money, but that is a lot higher than comparable projects. The amount is more in line with raising cash for a full-blown video game. I would be willing to bet many people looked at the amount & decided that it wouldn't fund, so they are staying away.


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## turkeygiant (Dec 22, 2014)

Xorial said:


> Personally, I think the target to fund is what setting people off. I realize that they likely actually need that much money, but that is a lot higher than comparable projects. The amount is more in line with raising cash for a full-blown video game. I would be willing to bet many people looked at the amount & decided that it wouldn't fund, so they are staying away.




I'm not sure why they have such a giant team developing this project? Seems huge for what they are designing.

"The Trapdoor team working on Morningstar consists of six senior-level developers, a creative director who leads both UX and visual design efforts, a web developer, a production artist, a data entry specialist, a content architect, two QA engineers, three support and social media staff, and a number of contract folks for specialized tasks. These are full-time employees dedicated to the project - far from a skeleton crew. Throw in a commercial-grade infrastructure - we have 9 dedicated Linux servers for the project - and a fully-stocked QA lab with scores of tablets, phones, etc. for testing, and you can quickly see how $425,000 is a real world target. Trapdoor is a commercial software development company, and this is how we approach large projects. We have already invested $1.2M in the project to date."

They are already $1.2M into this project, and they want ANOTHER $425,000 just between now and April to finish it, I want to get paid on their salary scale!


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## trancejeremy (Dec 22, 2014)

$1.2 million already invested? Yikes.

But I think the problem is that it's not particularly obvious that what they plan to offer is "new & exciting". That picture that they use (shown above) seems to be more or less identical to a PDF reader reading an adventure PDF (which they deride). How is what they offer better?

Honestly, what I think I'd like to see is a PDF reader optimized for RPGs. When I run an adventure, I generally keep two copies of the module open, one for where they are and one on the map. And then the rule book open (just in case). And then a notepad with character information, and another for notes. That's easy enough on a computer, but my tablet can't handle that...


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## trancejeremy (Dec 22, 2014)

turkeygiant said:


> I'm not sure why they have such a giant team developing this project? Seems huge for what they are designing.
> 
> "The Trapdoor team working on Morningstar consists of six senior-level developers, a creative director who leads both UX and visual design efforts, a web developer, a production artist, a data entry specialist, a content architect, two QA engineers, three support and social media staff, and a number of contract folks for specialized tasks. These are full-time employees dedicated to the project - far from a skeleton crew. Throw in a commercial-grade infrastructure - we have 9 dedicated Linux servers for the project - and a fully-stocked QA lab with scores of tablets, phones, etc. for testing, and you can quickly see how $425,000 is a real world target. Trapdoor is a commercial software development company, and this is how we approach large projects. We have already invested $1.2M in the project to date."
> 
> They are already $1.2M into this project, and they want ANOTHER $425,000 just between now and April to finish it, I want to get paid on their salary scale!




16 people plus contract staff does seem rather excessive...


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## Michael Dean (Dec 22, 2014)

"The community and you have some decisions to make in the next two weeks"? That sounds pretty arrogant, and is a big turnoff.  Sounds like something my mom would say when she was trying to steer us ignorant kids in the "right" direction.


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## Hollow Man (Dec 22, 2014)

Michael Dean said:


> "The community and you have some decisions to make in the next two weeks"? That sounds pretty arrogant, and is a big turnoff.  Sounds like something my mom would say when she was trying to steer us ignorant kids in the "right" direction.




That, plus the business about how if we don't pledge it means we're happy with the status quo. No, it may simply mean that we're not happy with THEIR product. I wish they'd stop behaving like they're a silver bullet. If it was as perfect as they say it is, for the million dollars they've already spent, it would be out already. 

-HM


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## MoutonRustique (Dec 22, 2014)

For my part, there are oodles of holes in this situation :
1 - I don't know (I honestly have _no_ concrete idea) *what* they are making/selling
2 - the entry point (after funding) seems high
3 - that the _creation_ aspect of the tool, _around which the whole thing seems to hinge_ is the highest price point is... baffling to me
4 - it is geared towards a rules set that I do not use (and will not use in the foreseeable future)
*5- I don't know what they are making/selling!*

I've watched the videos and read all I could, but all I can find are lines that read "revolutionary system of creation, etc." Everything that I can figure out, I have to read them between the lines - and I've been burned by WotC enough about the "between the lines" : never again am I trusting to "half-promises" or "implied" or anything not directly and clearly spelled out. If it's not clearly written down in a public place, and the whole of the community agree on its meaning, it does not exist.

Lastly - about that whole "if you don't back us, you're voting for the status quo" :
1 - No, that is not true, _ever_ - we do not live in a bipolar world : !A =/= B
2 - I don't know what you're offering, so my vote means nothing.
3 - It is poorly phrased : it seems petulant.
4 - I like to make lists of things tonight.*

*That last one doesn't really apply.


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## WayneLigon (Dec 22, 2014)

Really, what you should be telling me is how your software, out of the box, is better for me than Hero Lab.  Creating an OGL character generator by this point should almost be an automatic exercise in database management. _Specifically _what features does it offer me that Hero Lab does not?


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## Darth Quiris (Dec 22, 2014)

They need a DEMO. Something to show and share how this actually works. Spending 1.2 Million dollars with no Demo, with nothing to really show seems off and I feel that a lot of that 1.2 Million was actual cost and programming they probably spent while they were working on it for D&D 5e and when that got pulled a lot of their work towards that was suddenly null and void so in that way they are probably trying to recoup their loss with this kickstarter. That's the only thing that makes sense.

They should look at how Roll20 works, or Hero Lab, because what they are describing sounds a lot similar to those two programs. And Pathfinder... for all this money being necessary for a program that is laser focused on a single game system. I am betting that if they ever do finish Morningstar it will be pretty amazing but... well, what does it do that's different?


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## Adammar (Dec 22, 2014)

Yep - Every post makes me doubt more whether they know what they are doing. They have spent 1.2M on a product that isn't ready but they need to have a kickstarter to judge if there is a market? I would think you would have judged the market before putting that kind of money into it. If you make $25 dollar pure profit per sale you are looking at close to 50,000K subscribers to brake even. (Not counting kickstarters which offset the money kickstarted.) Seems kind of high judging from print runs of product. I think the 1.2M may be overstated also. (a lot of it appears to be sweat equity which is a made up value.) Just wondering what the last couple of postings was supposed to do. They don't seem to entice anyone to actually participate.


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## fjw70 (Dec 22, 2014)

I have been a supporter of the Morningstar idea for a while now (I have backed the kickstarter) but it is just idea to most of us and the statement about being happy with the status quo if you don't back them sounds a little . . . arrogant.


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## Psikosis (Dec 22, 2014)

I think the gaming community has made their "decision". I know I have. I read this project and watched their video a couple weeks ago (or thereabouts). As others have noted above, they haven't clearly articulated what the product is or how/why it's better than existing tools (including paper, pencil, and books). To which I'd add, it's cloud-based. As a user, I appear to have nothing, I may likely own nothing. If it goes down, so does my content in it. If they shut down, my content disappears. I have no interest in such fragile toolsets. There is some reference to 'offline' capability, but if it's truly cloud-based offline mode is almost certainly limited at best. Lots of marketing buzzwords (I don't think they missed a one), but very light on any actual details. 
More important than the paucity of information about the product (to me) is the demo. It's a bunch of people sitting in the dark staring at, and interacting, with their tablets more often than each other. I like tabletop games, in part, because you get to interact with people personally, perhaps in my (well-lit) friendly local game store. This system seems to make gaming yet another experience of people staring at their devices rather than interacting with each other.
So my answer is "No, thanks." I'm happy with my books, paper, pencils, and dice supplemented with the occasional pdf or character-generating app...and, of course, interacting with my fellow gamers personally.

PS- I completely agree; the false dichotomy Mr. Matney set up was neither respectful nor humble (status quo v. our latest wiz-bang software), it was more than a smidgen condescending and arrogant.


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## fjw70 (Dec 22, 2014)

I agree that demo video wasn't the best selling point. A bunch of people sitting in the dark looking at tablets is not the gaming experience I am looking for.  I am interested in the Ebook and mapping aspects but not really in the player aspects.


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## dd.stevenson (Dec 22, 2014)

fjw70 said:


> I have been a supporter of the Morningstar idea for a while now (I have backed the kickstarter) but it is just idea to most of us and the statement about being happy with the status quo if you don't back them sounds a little . . . arrogant.



In fairness, that quote mainly sounds bad when taken out of context in the pull quotes. "Kickstarter collects pledges only if the funding is successful. It's a no risk proposition - at worst, you will show your support. Not pledging is telling the industry that you are happy with the status quo" isn't nearly so bad.


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## SharnDM (Dec 22, 2014)

Man, if it's one thing Codename Morningstar is teaching me it's that being open with all the behind the scenes stuff is a mistake apparently.  This community sure is turning on Trapdoor Technologies fast!


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## Elvish Lore (Dec 22, 2014)

No, Chris Matney, you guys not funding means people aren't loving your arrogance, the lack of proof that you can carry off such a project and your product isn't much different from technologies already out there -- it looks like a more dynamic Obsidian Portal meets a pdf reader: sorry, you're not exactly blowing me away here with your revolutionary product.

Also, as fjw70 said -- this isn't the gaming experience I want to have -- in the dark staring at screens. Ugh.


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## 3catcircus (Dec 22, 2014)

Perhaps they ought to ask themselves, is, if they were venture capitalists instead of software developers, would they fund this project?

You look at their main webpage and get a "coming soon," yet they apparently have a trapdoor books website - an "emerging small press."

If we know that WotC couldn't manage to figure out how to develop digital tools (as a large publisher), what "warm fuzzy" would we get from these guys?  We already know that WotC (having had bad experiences previously), finally wised up and dumped them at the nth sign of trouble (we don't know if n is 1, 2, or some larger quantity of missed deadlines or functionality).

Even if they were to somehow manage to develop this product - I don't know what the heck it is or does, nor do I have an overwhelming burning need for it...  Herolab, PCGen, Campaign Cartographer, and any set of office software (take your pick of Microsoft, Google, or something else) does the job just fine.  And besides, I don't tend to spend my gaming time buried in a tablet or laptop - the only time I do is when looking up an obscure rule and using PDFs instead of lugging all the books around.  I don't use PCGen or Herolab's in-play features, nor do I project maps onto a screen, wall, or using a laying-down TV...

I just don't see a market for this product based upon the demo trailer.  What we'll never actually know is if WotC played with a working demo of what they were developing and came to the same conclusion.


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## marv77 (Dec 22, 2014)

I want them to be successful.

But I think they should have offered a much more limited version of the product at a much lower funding point, and added to it with stretch goals.
I suspect that people are more likely to pile on an almost funded or already funded project than one that isn't looking too hopeful.

Also the web beta of Dungeonscape didn't impress me very much. And I play 5E and not Pathfinder.


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## Feeroper (Dec 22, 2014)

I tried the beta when it was dungeonscape and that certainly did not seem to be working so great. I have no idea what this is supposed to do that is revolutionary, as others have pointed out it seems to be an amalgamation of other digital tools in one. that's fine and all, but I could care less. I barely use any digital tools, mainly just a character creator sometimes, and I have used Obsidian Portal. However, ultimately I find nothing beats pencil and paper. I suppose if you had a group that was doing this online or something, but even then Roll20 is a great mostly hassle-free environment.

Ultimately though, as was said earlier, I don't want to be at a table where we are all just staring a screens. I don't want to be focussed on that stuff at all. A pencil and some paper works wonders, everything else should be the players and the DM engaging in storytelling and imagination, not accessing trendy new features and launching apps. Just my opinion.


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## Jester David (Dec 22, 2014)

SharnDM said:


> Man, if it's one thing Codename Morningstar is teaching me it's that being open with all the behind the scenes stuff is a mistake apparently.  This community sure is turning on Trapdoor Technologies fast!



Their honesty is nice. Refreshing. The problem is their attitude and the lack of details regarding the actual program.

For example:
"Not pledging is telling the industry that you are happy with the status quo."

No. Not pledging might mean you have no interest in Pathfinder. Or can't justify the cost pre-Christmas. Or won't be able to get all your players to invest. Or are just unwilling to invest in a failimg project. 
Plus the details of what you can do with the program are a tad vague.


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## SharnDM (Dec 22, 2014)

I didn't read that quote with the venom everyone else did. It's just a stark truth. So to me there isn't this "attitude" everyone else seems to see.

To me the program also seems pretty understandable.  Not sure what people are missing.  

I really would like to have this, and certainly would like to see it in the hands of a company that actually cares about the community the way TT appears to.


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## dungeondude (Dec 22, 2014)

I enjoy the open communication they seem to have regarding the project. Kudos! I don't even have anything against the amount of money they are seeking, though it is the holidays and like most of us, cash is tight.

What pretty much just killed my vibe for this was the "Not pledging is telling the industry that you are happy with the status quo." Oh, that comes across wrong on various levels to me.

And, I don't play Pathfinder. I was hoping there could be other benefits for my game, but I'm sort-of off the "happy wagon" now with regards to this.


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## fjw70 (Dec 22, 2014)

dd.stevenson said:


> In fairness, that quote mainly sounds bad when taken out of context in the pull quotes. "Kickstarter collects pledges only if the funding is successful. It's a no risk proposition - at worst, you will show your support. Not pledging is telling the industry that you are happy with the status quo" isn't nearly so bad.




It's not good either. Maybe people do want something even if they don't think Morningstar is it.


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## Hollow Man (Dec 22, 2014)

fjw70 said:


> It's not good either. Maybe people do want something even if they don't think Morningstar is it.




What some of us want are the 5e rules in digital form. While Trapdoor was planning on providing this when the product was still DungeonScape, now the status of this is unknown. Even if WotC releases their rules in some OGL form, some aspects of the 5e rules will still be under copyright, and thus not able to be put into Morningstar. 

So much appeal of the product went south once the partnership with WotC ended. 

-HM


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## dd.stevenson (Dec 22, 2014)

fjw70 said:


> Maybe people do want something even if they don't think Morningstar is it.



That's my point: the full context limits the scope of the claim to people who are considering backing, but are reluctant to put money down because of doubts about whether the kickstarter will fund.


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## SharnDM (Dec 22, 2014)

But now they are free to persue other gaming systems in the future. They are just starting with 3.5 BC it's the most similar to 5e. Thus a pivot, not a full restart.


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## Jessic (Dec 22, 2014)

Trapdoor - we don't care about Pathfinder. I don't want to fund your Pathfinder app. Give me 5e.


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## lkj (Dec 22, 2014)

Everything else aside, I agree with them that pdf's are a limited 'technology' when it comes to gaming material -- a activity where you are regularly accessing reference material in the course of playing the game. Whether you are creating a character, making an adventure, running an adventure, etc., you are regularly flipping through material in a book, or more often several books, to get all the information you need for a given task. That's because the pieces you need for a given activity are never all together. And there's no way to avoid that in a paper book. If you are building an elf fighter with a charlatan background you have three different places to look. And you can't change that without severely limiting options or creating an absurd tome with incredible duplication. 

Pdf's don't much improve that situation. They offer increased portability and a search function. But you're still 'flipping' around various parts of your tome trying to get all the information you need.

What you really want-- in this age of digital information-- is a content management system in which all the pieces of information you need are always one touch away. Essentially you want all the information you need in one place all the time, no matter what you are doing. And, finally, we have sufficient technology to make that possible. Of course you need a  well designed interface and a well designed database structure to back it up. No easy task to be sure. But heck, I was helping my kids design characters today, flipping back and forth through my beautiful player's handbook while also trying to clean the house, and I would have loved (killed for the opportunity?) to hand them an app where they could just click on various parts of a screen to get the info they need rather than what I did have to do. Don't get me wrong-- I love the physical books and it's the way I want to learn the game. But once I'm using it, the tool would be great to have. The same is true when I'm running an adventure. Need the map? Don't flip a page, just press here. Need the monster stats? Press here. Running a combat and want info on that spell the evil dude is casting? Click here.  It's all about the design and usability. And pdf's just don't offer anything like that. Not even close.

And I think--  however well or poorly they've articulated it-- that is what Trapdoor is trying to achieve. It's not just a character builder or a campaign management tool. It's a system which serves you the information you need for any given gaming task easily and intuitively. And as soon as you buy content, it immediately gets integrated into this system and is suddenly at your fingertips. Then they layer on things like game table aids-- dice roller, messaging, etc.  Do other tools get at some of this? Maybe. But I haven't seen anything I could easily hand to the least intense of gamer friends and see them just use it. The snippets I've seen of the Morningstar app seem to indicate this is what they are putting together.

But here's the rub for Trapdoor, and it's been articulated in this thread a lot. The value of the tool is intimately tied to the availability of the information. If you can't plug the info into the tool (5e in my case) then the tool loses most of its value. Sure, you can still use some of the features for a 5e game. You might be able to design your own adventures with it and have sweet maps and such. But that's not what is going to sell me on it. What sells me on it is that the content management works with the system I'm using. 

Ultimately I can't blame them for not having access to 5e (you can try but it's all pretty much extrapolated speculation with likely little bearing on the reality).  But it is what it is. In order to sell this thing, they have to have content a lot of people want. They might be able to do that for PF and create a tool that rocks enough to convert people from various other less slick apps. But to do that will require a demonstration, and again-- it is what it is-- they just aren't in the position to do that. 

I really do want this app, as I believe it's envisioned, for 5e. I'm just skeptical that there's a path to get there. The OGL (if there is one) should help clarify that. Unfortunately, the timing is awful for Trapdoor. 

My two cents (bloated to about the size of a buck).

AD


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## BoldItalic (Dec 22, 2014)

I won't be funding Morningstar because I don't play PF and I don't own a tablet. *shrug*

If I did, I would think about it long and hard and probably come to the same conclusion as other people, namely, "It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it" and give it the thumbs down.

The status quo, where life goes on being fun and interesting without Morningstar, is fine by me.

*walks away*


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## Dice4Hire (Dec 22, 2014)

*Walks away* pretty much sums up my ideas also. What will it add? To my gaming style not much. And the attitude that not funding them, and only them tells the whole industry something. Pretty arrogant.

If I do a dice Ks and you all do not fund me does that mean you hate dice?


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## rjfTrebor (Dec 22, 2014)

maybe they should have focused on getting a polished, viable product into the market before they set out to "revolutionize tabletop gaming". Ed Edd, and Eddy had better planned ventures than this Kickstarter.


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## MrJamela (Dec 22, 2014)

I would LOVE to see high-quality digital products to improve the experience of using the rules and the books at the table.

But as someone who has worked in both software and application development and as a gamer who has been following this since the earliest announcements, and having participated in their unbelievably bad 5e web alpha, I think it is safe to say that Trapdoor Technologies is not going to be the company that gets us there. 

I find myself a little perturbed at the hubris exhibited by these folks. If WE don't pledge our money in support of their second effort to produce their product, then clearly we don't value the FUTURE. Um, no. You had your shot with 5e and you blew it. (Side note, we don't really care why it failed -- only that we were promised digital product that has not been delivered). Here's a News Flash for you.....there is already existing product out there to support Pathfinder. And it is pretty good. And it is available now. If I want it, I can go buy it without having to bankroll your operation.

Does it cost $2 million to build an ambitious digital product for an RPG? Maybe. Programmers are not cheap and it's a seller's market. I'm left wondering how they ever thought the margins on this product would cover that expense? Did WotC really authorize a million dollar spend and then kill this product with NOTHING to show for it? Somehow I doubt that. So clearly there was a plan to monetize expansions and content. If I had to hazard a guess it was some variant on the SAAS model and Trapdoor was expecting to get a piece of the subscriptions or transactions. 

TT's kickstarter is dead already, but they're clearly not ready to admit that publicly. 

So what happens next is that TT quietly vanishes back into obscurity -- blaming us for "being okay with the status quo."

Whatever helps them sleep at night.

Jaime


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## GMforPowergamers (Dec 22, 2014)

This reads to,e of sour grapes...


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## Mouseferatu (Dec 22, 2014)

To echo what others have said...

1) I have no idea what this will do that other programs won't. But of greater importance...

2) I don't need another suite of Pathfinder software right now. I need a suite of 5E software. If I knew it would have that, I might be willing to support it even not knowing exactly what it does.

But they can't promise that. It's not TT's fault that they don't know what the 5E license will look like--but that doesn't change the fact that it's what I need, and the only reason I'd back this.

The situation sucks for all concerned, but it's got nothing to do with the "status quo." When they can offer a suite of 5E tools, I'll consider it. Until then, they simply aren't making a product for me.


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## GreenTengu (Dec 22, 2014)

How exactly is not backing a totally unnecessary Pathfinder app mean that everyone is happy with gaming industry as it is?

This app aims to offer absolutely nothing new or usable. Frankly, the database of this site right here offers more functionality for even that then this app offers.
If a company has spent $1.2 million when they have less than 20 employees and are coding some pretty basic stuff, what the hell is even the point of a Kickstarter?
As far as I have seen, all this is going to amount to is a Pathfinder Character Generator and Pathfinder Adventure Planner-- both of which are already on the market and didn't require anywhere near that price point to develop.

Trapdoor Technology is clearly all bluster and just looking for more money to pocket on empty and failed promises. And of all the times of year to try to fundraise with a ludicrously overblown goal. The whole company is clearly made up of complete idiots.


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## Morrus (Dec 22, 2014)

I have to admit, I feel for them.  They keep getting told folks don't know what their product is, but I feel they've explained that over and over again; and people keep saying it's the same as Hero Lab or Roll20 when those two products aren't even the same type of application. And people keep jumping into a thread about a Pathfinder product to say "I don't want Pathfinder; give me 5E", which they can't do a darn thing about.   But Pathfinder is the biggest game in the world at last count, so the game system shouldn't be the issue.

The Kickstarter is the issue, not the product.  I think they did the exact opposite of most every piece of Kickstarter advice I've ever received.  The amount is doable - Pathfinder Online raised over $1,000,000, but it was a very, very well managed Kickstarter.  The industry can support Kickstarters of that size.  Heck, Monte Cook raised more than half a million for a brand new system - and he really did only need $30K or so, which is about what he asked for.

What the KS needed was:

1) Not being at Xmas.

2) A well-planned start and finish time during high traffic times of the week.

3) Immediate gratification for backers; a demo or _something_. Most RPG Kickstarters offer a playtest document at least. Even if that means waiting to launch the Kickstarter.

4) A minimal asking goal for a minimal feature set. *Everything* should be stretch goals.  The asking goal should be as low as possible for the smallest thing that can be provided.  Then the product just gets better for existing backers as stretch goals are met; your backers become your evangelists.  If you want to sell a full colour hardback book, your KS goal is for the softcover b/w book.  The full colour hardback is a lofty stretch goal - once folks have backed for the b/w softcover, they will want it to be upgraded to hardcover colour and will act to make that happen - in other words, they will promote your KS for you and say nice things about it everywhere.

5) An identified popular backer level which keeps getting better.

6) Not being at Xmas.

With those things, I really do think it could have been successful.  A launch in March or so with a demo to offer backers and a goal of a very minimal feature set and I think it would have funded on its first day - it's important that Kickstarters fund early - and the rest of the campaign would have pushed towards stretch goals.

Still, two weeks.  Stranger things have happened.  I really hope something happens to turn this around, because it is a good product.


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## Nebulous (Dec 22, 2014)

"No. Not pledging might mean you have no interest in Pathfinder. Or can't justify the cost pre-Christmas. Or won't be able to get all your players to invest. Or are just unwilling to invest in a failing project. Plus the details of what you can do with the program are a tad vague."

Right, all of these things.  If this does not support 5th edition then I do not 100% care.  If it does not have a robust interactive DM toolkit function such as a monster creator or a map maker, then i doubly do not care.  And having people staring at an app while we play sounds like a nightmare.  4e, despite what it did well, ultimately bothered me to no end because I never saw the player's eyes, they were always looking down. 

Ultimately this project will fail, but then they'll re-evaluate and maybe break it down into smaller chunks.  I don't care either way.  But i find it interesting to watch how this unfolds, and how it might influence 5e eventually as that is my game of choice right now.


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## fjw70 (Dec 22, 2014)

Agreed that they have articulated what the want the product to do. There's the character builder, the ability to share pics and messages among the group, purchase and run Ebook adventures with link to easily go back and forth between area/room descriptions and maps with the ability to bring up monster stats with a click/tap, and the ability to create adventures with the interactive maps mention previously (including tile based mapping).


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## Mournblade94 (Dec 22, 2014)

Hero lab is tried and true.  With their announcement they are working on 5e tools, it took all desire away to try this.

I know Hero Lab works excellent for Pathfinder.  Having it for 5e would be great, and I rather wait and buy their prodect.


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## DaveMage (Dec 22, 2014)

MoutonRustique said:


> For my part, there are oodles of holes in this situation :
> 1 - I don't know (I honestly have _no_ concrete idea) *what* they are making/selling
> 2 - the entry point (after funding) seems high
> 3 - that the _creation_ aspect of the tool, _around which the whole thing seems to hinge_ is the highest price point is... baffling to me
> ...




Yes!  All this!  Exactly!  (Well, except that I do play Pathfinder and the "lists of things"part.    )


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## maimonidesvii (Dec 22, 2014)

Honestly, even a poorly run kickstarter I could see backing if I had any faith in the product.

The problem is, I am a software developer, and I participated in the beta. Don't get me wrong; unlike most people, I didn't care how buggy it was. I *expect* that. My issue, which I asked about in the developer Q&A, is that a beta is designed to test functionality and to push out changes at a rapid pace. Who cares if you push out code that breaks something? It's a beta, and it' already broken. So you should be building and deploying once a day. And then we can see that our feedback is taken into account and things are getting better.

They waited *weeks* without a new build being released. Their answer when I asked them was that they are a small company and can't get the code changes done fast enough. That would be crap in general, as even one person writing code should be getting things done, but now they claim the team is *HUGE?*

Sorry, but as someone who does this kind of thing for a living, you have shown unbelievable ineptitude in software development, as well as in kickstarter management and public relations. So... Why would I give your company money again?


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## Hollow Man (Dec 22, 2014)

Morrus said:


> The Kickstarter is the issue, not the product.




I slightly disagree with this. The main problem is the company and the perception they have that they can't pull this product off. Paizo has a proven track record, so even though they're not the ones developing the Pathfinder Online video game (and hell, I can't exactly figure out WHO Goblinworks is!), with their name behind it, there's some sort of "seal of quality" that is naturally (although perhaps prematurely) stamped on it. With WotC out of the Trapdoor picture, a lot of  mental good people had for the product (which already handicapped them to some extent, considering people's problems with WotC) vanished.



Morrus said:


> I really hope something happens to turn this around, because it is a good product.




The IDEA of the product is good, but I feel that many of us have yet to be convinced that they can actually successfully develop what they say they can.

-HM


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## chibi graz'zt (Dec 22, 2014)

Perhaps we are now seeing why Wizards pulled the plug. Im wanting to believe that they have the capacity to deliver a great product, but if all you can show is the beta you delivered us, then no, you can't deliver what you are promising.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 22, 2014)

I've been thinking a lot about this, probably too much for a Kickstarter for a product that I'm not even backing, but I've backed a number of Kickstarters and I've become fascinated with how they work as a kind of sociology. 

I think Morrus hits most of the highlights of what the problem here is. Though I would note that saying "people are complaining that it's for PF" is probably because a) there are already a raft of products out there for PF, and b) this was originally supposed to be a 5e product. If it were still a 5e product, I might even back it, but I'm satisfied with the market for PF products right now.

But what I'm seeing in a lot of the response is that people are a bit gobsmacked at the funding level more than anything else. I went back to look, and by comparison, inXile's "Tides of Numenera," which I backed, was asking for about double what these guys are asking for ($900,000), but that was for a full-on video game, with fairly intensive graphics features, a massive story, lots of art, etc., etc., etc. And for my measly $45, I felt like I got a bargain right out of the gate for a game that I wanted to play if the project funded. Even cutting inXile's ask in half, it's hard to see how Morningstar's budget is reasonable (and it's not helped knowing they've already plowed over $1 million into it).

I just wish that _someone_ would develop a software project for 5e, that does much of what Morningstar seems to be advertising (though I need much less than their maximum promise), at a reasonable level of entry. Heck, I've already given chunks of cash to Herolab to suit my Pathfinder needs. Thus I'm exactly the kind of customer Morningstar should be pitching to, but I can't justify it with all of the problems they're having up to this point.


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## jhhoffmann (Dec 22, 2014)

I think they need to be a bit more like Steve Jobs about it.  Don't ask people what they want (or in this case _if_ they want it).  Build it and show us we need it.


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## Hollow Man (Dec 22, 2014)

jhhoffmann said:


> I think they need to be a bit more like Steve Jobs about it.  Don't ask people what they want (or in this case _if_ they want it).  Build it and show us we need it.




If they were as skilled as Woz and Jobs they wouldn't be going to their customers, asking for money. They'd have something to show already (because that's what entrepreneurs do: work like crazy on their own dime), and if it was as awesome as they say, people would be kicking doors down to get to it.

-HM


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## ExploderWizard (Dec 22, 2014)

trancejeremy said:


> Honestly, what I think I'd like to see is a PDF reader optimized for RPGs. When I run an adventure, I generally keep two copies of the module open, one for where they are and one on the map. And then the rule book open (just in case). And then a notepad with character information, and another for notes. That's easy enough on a computer, but my tablet can't handle that...




[shakes cane] Back in my day they produced REAL MODULES with adventure info in a booklet and maps printed conveniently on separate card stock covers so you could reference the map and keep turned to the page you needed. We wouldn't need all this fancy claptrap and electronic whatziz if publishers would remember how to produce a decent module that is actually user friendly at the table.  

/rant off. [you can wheel me back to the retirement home now]


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 22, 2014)

I am a backer and in the words of Frank Zappa: "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.”   

This is something I have been looking for a long time, a one-stop game builder.  Is this the Holy Grail, I don't know, I liked what I saw in InKarnate RPG Toolset more but this is something I think we need for our hobby, I will support for that reason but as I said before, I just think this becoming an impossible dream.


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## Grimstaff (Dec 22, 2014)

How do you overcome:
1. A disappointing beta
2. Losing the game (5E) that everyone knew you because of
3. Standing out in an oversaturated (d20/PF) market

I don't know the answer myself, but Trapdoor apparently doesn't either.


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## ShadowDenizen (Dec 22, 2014)

I think a big part of the problem with this whole scenario is the PERCPETION.

I'm not a tech-guy in any sense of the word, but I think that, in all likelihood, the Kinckstarter amount requested is realistic. 

BUT, I think that:
A) the intro video didn't really clearly elucidate what the product is/what it does effectively
B) the flip from 5E to Pathfinder probably put some people off (PF has a plethora of web and app support, while 5E [due to it's being new] has less support overall 
C) Noting the "Top-Notch team, including executives" already on the payroll, as well as the $1M plus alerady invested makes people wonder why they should donate to this.
D) Though I'm sure it was not INTENDED as such, equating not funding this project to "being OK with the status quo" is a bit of a jarring statement, and seems more of a guilt-inducing tactic.


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## kevtar (Dec 22, 2014)

I categorically disagree with Matney's claim that "...not pledging is telling the industry that you are happy with the status quo." Mr. Matney, my decision not to fund the kickstarter is because, while I am dissatisfied with the 'status quo,' I have not been adequately persuaded by your company to back the development of your product. I am not accepting the status quo, I simply don't feel I have a viable alternative. 

I find your letter above to be part of the problem in that it seems you place the responsibility of your product funding on the gaming community. It is not our responsibility to fund your product. However, as a developer and entrepreneur, it is your responsibility to understand the market, identify and address the needs of your potential customers and present clear, compelling reasons that will persuade us to 'share your vision.' For me, that has simply not happened. 

It might be time to take another step back and think about how your company is approaching this launch. That said, I wish you the best in the days to come.


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## Feeroper (Dec 22, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I have to admit, I feel for them.  They keep getting told folks don't know what their product is, but I feel they've explained that over and over again; and people keep saying it's the same as Hero Lab or Roll20 when those two products aren't even the same type of application. And people keep jumping into a thread about a Pathfinder product to say "I don't want Pathfinder; give me 5E", which they can't do a darn thing about.   But Pathfinder is the biggest game in the world at last count, so the game system shouldn't be the issue.





In general I do agree with your post Morrus, but the fact that people clearly don't seem to grasp what this is seems to me that TT hasn't really done a great job explaining. I think the disconnect isn't so much that others cant understand what it is, its more that they are having a hard time connecting the dots as to why this is so revolutionary. I mean sure, it is a great idea on paper and would be very convenient to tie all this functionality together, and having a sort of app store environment for user generated content would be very cool, but ultimately, It just feels like another tool in the chest (at least to me). 

I used to get excited about these digital tools in the past, I remember when I first signed up for Obsidian Portal for example, but in the end, they always fall by the wayside for me. I always end up with my trusty books, pencil and paper in the end. Now I get that other groups may feel different about this and really value tools like this, but I don't think this can be seen as a universal truth for every gamer. You raised excellent points about the way they have managed the kickstarter and I think you are absolutely correct about that, but I also think that 2 major knocks against them are 1) some of us have already seen their work and how it progressed during the beta as dungeonscape, and it does not instill a lot of confidence. 2) their choice of language through this process, it has confused some, and in this case, whether or not they meant it this way (and I'm assuming not) it did carry an arrogant tone and that shuts down a lot of what they are trying to say when the intended user feels like they are being talked down to. They present a very binary notion of what supporting or not supporting this project says about you (the whole if you're not with us, you're against us thing). 

That's just my 2 cents. For the record though, I would like to see it successful as it is a cool product for those that want it, I just cant justify putting my money towards it myself at this time.


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## lyle.spade (Dec 22, 2014)

Well, we as gamers have lived up to the higher and towards the lower ends of stereotypes in these comments: we overthink everything, we have opinions about everything (some of them even based in facts!), and we get fired up about anything that lies within terrain we claim as ours. I'm okay with all of that, by the way - it's just funny to watch it unfold so perfectly in post after post.

Here's my take, as I do not want to be left out of this wave of entirely predictable gamer behavior: it's not going to fund. Trapdoor/Morningstar will disappear. There will be lots of assumptions and conjectures by the greater community, aired out in forums like this, but we'll likely never know why WOTC and them parted ways, nor will we ever know fully what the project is/was/twas meant to do.

I agree with the comments about how vague they've been, and how gamers in a dark room looking at tablets does not look like the game I would ever be happy running or playing. I agree that PF already has a bounty of online tools - many of which are free or at least far less expensive than what they're offering...not to mention their functions are easily understood.

As passionate as all of us get about our babies, I can only imagine how frustrating this must be to them as they watch their project loafs toward a cliff, off of which it will walk in a few weeks. That has to hurt, and obviously the added dimensions of business and money make it even worse. We've all had campaigns implode and that hurts....but no one lost jobs because of them, right?

In closing, the market is a tough place, and we are demanding customers. I think that's a good thing, because it motivates people to work harder and be more clever in order to attract our attention, support, and money. And we are loyal to an obsessive fault when we are won over, aren't we? Perhaps this is less about people wishing to maintain the status quo than a business and designers who are not as clever and motivated as they assess themselves to be, in response to the market voting against them with its wallet.


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## El Mahdi (Dec 22, 2014)

deleted


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## Nebulous (Dec 22, 2014)

> One thing is for certain though, attempting to guilt your potential customers into supporting you is a blatant desperation move...one that does more to harm your cause by making it look even less viable, than it does to garner support.




I think that this more than anything else is what bothered me.  It came off as a last ditch desperate effort to guilt the gaming masses to support their product before it was too late.  And as many others have pointed out, they need a product to WOW us with first.  Show us we need it when we didn't even know it existed, and then you'll have your support.   And as far as the generic map maker tile tool for print or Roll20, that is system neutral, and that is GENIUS.  Show me you can do that and it won't matter what system the rules support.  Hell, just release that separate.  Being able to make and easily modify my own battle maps?   God yes i'd pay for that.  But first show me you have some ability to actually do it.


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## dmccoy1693 (Dec 22, 2014)

Here's the thing. I like the idea of Morningstar. I really do. But I have not backed the kickstarter for a good number of reasons:

1) I'm tired of Kickstarter. I have pledged money to too many projects that funded and nothing came of them. I would rather spend my money these days on finished projects. This is especially true if the makers of the project has nothing else to show for themselves. It would be one thing if the makers of Hero Lab were running a kickstarter. Why, because they already have damn good product out there and a proven track record. Other than the 5e support/no 5e support thing, I do not know what else they have done. Mind you, I could look, but this brings us to point 2.

2) I'm not sold on it. Other than a few flashes of screen shots, the video does not show what it can do. There were promises of what it _will_ be able to do, but I have been burned by enough promises. I want results. If you have results , you can say, "this is what it does and here's how easy it is." Right now, just about everything they said that Morningstar will be able to do can be done with d20pfsrd and a shared google doc. I do not feel they really made a case for the explicit need for their solution in particular.

3) iPad. I watched the video a few times to do my best to identify the technology used, just to be fair on this point. The only tablet I saw being used was the iPad. There might be others in the video, but I was not able to spot them. And the kickstarter page does not come out and explicitly state what system this will be used for. So they are leaving a critical question unanswered. As someone that will is firmly in the android camp, having it only available for iOS is a non-starter for me. It could be the greatest thing in the world but if it is not for my tablet OS of choice, I am not going to back it. I am not going to buy an ipad just to use this app. And lastly ...

4) I wish any group I was involved with had this level of technology adoption. The group shown in the video had everyone staring at a tablet. The best level of technology adoption in a game I have been involved with was 50% with most of them being limited to only me. 

So like I said, I like the idea, and if someone produced such a product (provided it was for Android), I would be all over it. But I am tired of waiting for promises to be delivered.


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## Jester David (Dec 22, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I have to admit, I feel for them.  They keep getting told folks don't know what their product is, but I feel they've explained that over and over again; and people keep saying it's the same as Hero Lab or Roll20 when those two products aren't even the same type of application. And people keep jumping into a thread about a Pathfinder product to say "I don't want Pathfinder; give me 5E", which they can't do a darn thing about.   But Pathfinder is the biggest game in the world at last count, so the game system shouldn't be the issue.



The problem is twofold. 

One, they keep talking about the character builder and hinting at the rest. For most people, all we've seen was the character builder. So Morningstar and HeroLabs are similar in our mind. And the Forge sounds vaguely similar to a campaign manager, and there are lots of those, from Masterplan to Realmworks. 
Two, they haven't addressed those other systems. Not to my knowledge. They haven't said "this is how we're better than Masterplan" or "this is how we're different from HeroLabs and Realmworks." I'm not even sure what Roll20 is, so TT hasn't discussed how Morningstar is better. 

Except for the focus of being used at the table. Which is, again, hasn't been described a lot. It's also one of the parts that seems less easy to see as it requires everyone at the table to have a tablet. 
But, really, I already do a lot of what Morningstar promises to do. I send and receive messages all the time during the game via iMessage. 



Morrus said:


> What the KS needed was:
> 
> 1) Not being at Xmas.
> 
> ...



I agree with that 100% but I'd also add three more:

7) Not answering the burning questions in the FAQ from the start. They have some answers now, but many people would not have checked back. And many answers are only found if you check these threads online. 

8) Not waiting until the licence situation was resolved. 5e is associated with Morningstar; not knowing if we can get 5e or not makes or breaks the program for most people. 

9) Going with the PRD. Pathfinder was a mistake. 
PF fans have no love for Trapdoor, and have the support of digital tools already. Crossing into that market means starting from the beginning relations wise. And they haven't done much to woo the Pathfinder community, only making a couple appearances on that message board and continuing their appearances on a D&D podcast rather than pushing for a guest spot on Know Direction. (Especially since, from the breakdown of why they need $400k, they have three full time staff members devoted to social media and customer support.)
If they *had* to launch now they should have gone with just the OGL and made it more of a generic tool divorced from mechanics. Going OGL would mean they still have access to all the D&D monsters and classes and they could launch all the tools except for the character builder, giving everyone a taste of how it's usable at the table sooner.



Morrus said:


> With those things, I really do think it could have been successful.  A launch in March or so with a demo to offer backers and a goal of a very minimal feature set and I think it would have funded on its first day - it's important that Kickstarters fund early - and the rest of the campaign would have pushed towards stretch goals.



I have to agree.

But, sadly, they didn't. And because they didn't they made zero money rather than a lower portion. Plus any time and funds they spend getting the Kickstarter together. And they hurt their already shaky reputation. 

I've been hard on Trapdoor, but a big reason for that is disappointment. 
I was disappointed by the web beta and then disappointed by the management of the Kickstarter. I heard of the Kickstarter, I excitedly followed the link intent on throwing a few bucks their way, saw the $425,000 figure and immediately closed the tab.


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## Jackal2100 (Dec 22, 2014)

3) iPad. I watched the video a few times to do my best to identify the technology used, just to be fair on this point. The only tablet I saw being used was the iPad. There might be others in the video, but I was not able to spot them. And the kickstarter page does not come out and explicitly state what system this will be used for. So they are leaving a critical question unanswered. As someone that will is firmly in the android camp, having it only available for iOS is a non-starter for me. It could be the greatest thing in the world but if it is not for my tablet OS of choice, I am not going to back it. I am not going to buy an ipad just to use this app. And lastly ...
[/QUOTE]

It is for IOS, Android and Web initially.


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## Hollow Man (Dec 22, 2014)

Clearly in addition to hiring a project manager and business manager, Matney has to hire a PR manager. The amount of hate Trapdoor is getting over this whole, "not pledging is telling the industry that you are happy with the status quo" comment is crazy! Although I guess if they did that, they'd have to raise the Kickstarter by an extra few thousand dollars...

I hope Hobo the Delightful and Newtonian are reading this stuff and passing it back to Matney. He just doesn't seem to get the community and what they respond to.

-HM


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## Zaukrie (Dec 22, 2014)

I agree with Morrus. I want a cool content tool, but the web beta turned me off, so they need to increase my confidence somehow. They have not done that. Oh, and I do not play pathfinder. I would think to fund to that level, they need Paizo working with them.


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## Nikosandros (Dec 22, 2014)

Mournblade94 said:


> Hero lab is tried and true.  With their announcement they are working on 5e tools, it took all desire away to try this.
> 
> I know Hero Lab works excellent for Pathfinder.  Having it for 5e would be great, and I rather wait and buy their prodect.



I've expressed my reservations about this project, but to be fair, what they're offering is rather different from Hero Lab.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 22, 2014)

That's an interesting point: Where is Paizo on all of this? Did Trapdoor contact them at all about this Kickstarter? Try to get some more support or cross promotion? Heck, Paizo has promoted other companies' Kickstarters before when it benefited their line, but to the best of my knowledge there's been no backing by Paizo and no effort to make enlist their support.


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## Hollow Man (Dec 22, 2014)

Remus Lupin said:


> That's an interesting point: Where is Paizo on all of this? Did Trapdoor contact them at all about this Kickstarter? Try to get some more support or cross promotion? Heck, Paizo has promoted other companies' Kickstarters before when it benefited their line, but to the best of my knowledge there's been no backing by Paizo and no effort to make enlist their support.




There's clearly no backing by Paizo at this point, because otherwise we'd see a big fat PATHFINDER logo across the top of their Kickstarter page, and you can bet that would go a long way towards people being willing to part with their money.

-HM


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## Doctor Futurity (Dec 22, 2014)

I miss the old days when a developer would produce a finished product which I could then buy from them and actually use at that time. 

Project Morningstar's crew seem to lack some self-awareness about the impression they left when their agreement with WotC dissolved.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 22, 2014)

I'd just like to see the producers of D&D just ONCE get their digital tools right off the bat, rather than having multiple false starts. This is 4 editions running where an attempt was made at digital tools that wound up going horribly wrong.


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## Mercurius (Dec 22, 2014)

Yes, I'm basically happy with the status quo. So _*bleep*_ me dead.


*Mod Note:*  "Clever" misspelling to avoid the language filter is not acceptable.  Keep your language clean, folks!  ~Umbran


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## Pauper (Dec 22, 2014)

When I first heard about Trapdoor and Project: Morningstar, I kind of assumed that Trapdoor was a shingle, not unlike, say, 'Sneak Attack Press' -- in other words, a gamer or a couple of gamers who had an interest in making something cool. The more I learn about Trapdoor, the less I am excited by them, and this last missive pretty much sums it all up.

First off, the message is laden with business-speak phrases that seem to mean one thing but really mean something else. Mr. Matney wants to know if 'the gaming community has a real interest in our technology'. I'm interested, but not to the point where I'm going to help fund the next three months of development of a product that most people still haven't seen and don't know much about. He talks about the Kickstarter being 'the only way to 100% guarantee the success of Morningstar', when all funding the Kickstarter will do is guarantee the success of the Kickstarter. (Ask anybody who pitched in money for Pathfinder Online, which squeaked past its million-dollar Kickstarter goal nearly two years ago and is still only in 'alpha' development.) He talks about 'greenfield opportunities' and 'evaluating the ecosystem' as if he's talking to other executive-level reports rather than an actual community of gamers.

Most importantly, he describes his company that has already published interactive software solutions in other fields. If your product is really going to revolutionize gaming, then talk about how your existing product has revolutionized the other fields you're in. All I can find about their current business is that they're 'revolutionizing' the portfolio of the venture capital firm they belong to (along with the artisinal gluten-free malt producer who also populates the portfolio - http://slingshotcp.com/portfolio-companies).

I feel bad for the folks who work for Trapdoor, but if this is the best that their management can do when put in a tight situation, they'll all be better off finding other employers. Meanwhile, the gaming community will continue to use their 'status quo' offerings and have great fun around the table, with or without revolutionary story-driven multi-media applications.


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## Umbran (Dec 22, 2014)

MrJamela said:


> Did WotC really authorize a million dollar spend and then kill this product with NOTHING to show for it? Somehow I doubt that.




I believe WotC and Trapdoor are both on record as saying that the funding for the project was internal to Trapdoor.  WotC didn't authorize any spending, as it wasn't WotC money being spent!


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## Morrus (Dec 22, 2014)

Umbran said:


> I believe WotC and Trapdoor are both on record as saying that the funding for the project was internal to Trapdoor.  WotC didn't authorize any spending, as it wasn't WotC money being spent!




Yeah.  It was a licensing agreement, not contract work.


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## Umbran (Dec 22, 2014)

Trapdoor Technologies said:
			
		

> First, we need to assess whether the gaming community has a real interest in our technology.




In this statement, Trapdoor shows a fundamental misunderstanding of something:  By in large, consumers aren't interested in technology.  They are interested in *products*.

Yes, there are some folks who, in order to support long-term development of technology, will buy something.  This helps sell things like Tesla cars (or the early Toyota Prius), and solar energy systems for your home - products which are not quite at the point of being an economic no-brainer.  But those sales are small, compared to what is available from the overall market.  Most folks wait until the purchase makes sense in terms of actual, delivered functionality, and won't buy just to support tech development.

So, no, the gaming community doesn't care about your technology. 

I personally don't care for the accusative tone in the, "...you are happy with the status quo."  They should not presume to tell me what I am happy with.  PR fail, there.


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## DM Howard (Dec 22, 2014)

If this had come around after Christmas I could justify it, but all my money is spoken for.  Pathfinder is the main game my group plays, but they couldn't have picked a worse time to ask me for money.


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## Morrus (Dec 22, 2014)

If you ignore the initial asking goal, their Kickstarter is actually doing very well.  It's at nearly $60K after two weeks, which is way better than any Kickstarter I've ever run, and on track to rival things like [MENTION=2]Piratecat[/MENTION]'s TimeWatch - over Christmas, no less, and despite all the timing issues; it's just the perspective is distorted by that big number on the right.  I'd wager that if that number wasn't there, the current total would be higher.


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## Morrus (Dec 22, 2014)

Incidentally, is that Lone Wolf's Liz Theis posting on Trapdoor's Kickstarter comments page?  Does that mean she's backed it?  Or am I mistaking that for someone else?


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## Hollow Man (Dec 22, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Incidentally, is that Lone Wolf's Liz Theis posting on Trapdoor's Kickstarter comments page?  Does that mean she's backed it?  Or am I mistaking that for someone else?




It appears to be. Hard to know how much she threw in. One can throw in a dollar just so they get the ability to post (as poster Jake Cotter over there did).

-HM


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## Hollow Man (Dec 22, 2014)

I found this quote from http://finance.yahoo.com/news/shark-tank-investor-daymond-john-174709987.html interesting:

"...whether you're running a Fortune 100 company or you are just starting out, you have to be creative and determined, and you have to make sure that — instead of other people's money — you use other people's marketing, mind power, manpower, [and] manufacturing. *And if you can't prove your concept when you're broke, you won't be able to prove it with money either.*"

-HM


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## Shayuri (Dec 22, 2014)

There's a definite 'art' to crowdfunding via Kickstart and similar sites...and it's an art that Trapdoor seems to have yet to master. Things like starting with fairly low (as low as you can get away with) initial requirements, but incentivizing higher bids via incremental rewards. Things like a lot of information about products, with frequent updates and constant attention. And of course, things like maintaining that delicate and hard-to-find balance between trustworthily professional and friendly/chummy that engages people's goodwill.

I'd really like to see digital tools for 5e. But since I'm not entirely sure that's what Morningstar IS...that kind of inhibits my willingness to throw money at it. That's the killer for me. Especially for 5e, which is for the moment very easy to make characters with manually. 

I'm sure someone, somewhere, sometime, will come up with something that has more concrete, definable goals that I can get excited about and maybe contribute to the success of. Maybe even Trapdoor, should they try again. We will see.


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## Nebulous (Dec 22, 2014)

Tell you what I would like to see...scrap this thing and concentrate on the Moddable Map Builder I saw posted.  Forget rulesets and and licenses, make something system neutral that simplifies battlemaps that can be printed or used in Roll20.  Customizable from a large database, and then shareable with an online community.  It's like Campaign Cartographer made for 8 year olds.  Drag and drop interface, but have really advanced options for those modders who love to get into the nuts and bolts and really make changes.  

They mention it as part of the suite, and it's the only part of this whole thing that interests me.   But, i 'm afraid that killing one will kill the other and we'll get nothing.  Then again, maybe they're not the best ones to do this anyway.  I still love the idea though.


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## TerraDave (Dec 22, 2014)

And on top of all that, there is also this:

http://blog.roll20.net/post/104153034845/coming-to-your-in-person-table-roll20-for-ipad


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## Vicar In A Tutu (Dec 22, 2014)

I wish Project Morningstar all the best, but I lost interest when it stopped being an official 5E accessory.


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## LWDLiz (Dec 22, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Incidentally, is that Lone Wolf's Liz Theis posting on Trapdoor's Kickstarter comments page?  Does that mean she's backed it?  Or am I mistaking that for someone else?




Yep, I backed for $1 so I could respond immediately to avoid misunderstandings about our news post from running rampant. That wouldn't be constructive for anyone. 

We're keenly interested in Codename: Morningstar, as it aspires to do much of what we already do and plan to do with Realm Works. However, Realm Works is game system neutral and isn't tied specifically to Pathfinder, 5e, or another game system. Hero Lab is our product that's tied to game systems, and it works in concert with Realm Works.


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## Grimjack99 (Dec 22, 2014)

For me, I don't see investing in a company who's prior product was a big miss, and that failed to launch.  I wish them all the best, as long as their best doesn't involve my money.


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## Morrus (Dec 22, 2014)

LWDLiz said:


> Yep, I backed for $1 so I could respond immediately to avoid misunderstandings about our news post from running rampant. That wouldn't be constructive for anyone.
> 
> We're keenly interested in Codename: Morningstar, as it aspires to do much of what we already do and plan to do with Realm Works. However, Realm Works is game system neutral and isn't tied specifically to Pathfinder, 5e, or another game system. Hero Lab is our product that's tied to game systems, and it works in concert with Realm Works.




You're promoting your competing product on their own Kickstarter page? That's audacious, I'll give you that!


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## LWDLiz (Dec 22, 2014)

Morrus said:


> You're promoting your competing product on their own Kickstarter page? That's audacious, I'll give you that!




That’s not our interpretation. If we had failed to respond and clarify the misunderstanding quickly, I believe both companies would have been worse off. As we’ve all seen over the years, simple misunderstandings can spread like wildfire across the internet and quickly become construed as “fact”. We were in an untenable position, faced with the choice of either posting in their Kickstarter comments or risking an incorrect interpretation being both repeated across the internet and potentially used against Trapdoor with regards to 5E support. We felt that clarifying on the Kickstarter in a minimal manner was the best course of action for everyone involved, including Trapdoor.

To provide context for everyone here, below is the original comment made on the Kickstarter and the one response made to clarify things. Hopefully this will allow everyone to make to their own judgment on the subject.

Commenter: I just read that Lone Wolf has announced they are going to be supporting 5th edition with their Hero Lab. Is there any news you've heard of of being able to support it as well?

Liz T: @Commenter'sName, according to the announcement, there will only be support *IF* an OGL or SRD is both released and allows digital support. If there is, the announcement says support will be available within both Hero Lab and Realm Works. The contingency upon an SRD applies to all digital tools, barring a special license with Wizards.​


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## Tyranthraxus (Dec 23, 2014)

Okay so there is 2 possibilities above

A) Lonewolf gets a special license with WOTC OR
B) WOTC release an OGL/SRD which allows Digital support.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 23, 2014)

I would be pleased in either case.


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## Rygar (Dec 23, 2014)

I can see where all of their problems lie,  they don't understand the market and they don't understand kickstarter.

First,  they're starting out with a screenshot of a tablet.  To be more specific,  they're indicating their primary platform is a product whose sales reportedly tanked this year according to one of the biggest retailers.  They had several choices,  they could make a web app and have an installed base of billions,  they could make a stand alone app and have an installed base of billions,  or they could make a tablet app and have a stagnant installed base which may who bought the tablet,  played with it for a bit,  and then stopped using it.  Bad business decision.

Second,  their backup plan is apparently mobile.  Which studies have shown that the majority of users aren't willing to pay for mobile apps,  so they certainly aren't going to kickstart it.  Bad business decision.

Third,  they went to Kickstarter with a mobile app.  A few minutes of study would reveal that there are certain keywords that are generally a kiss of death for a kickstarter.  "MMORPG" is a huge one.  Just as big,  if not bigger due to the volume of failed kickstarters,  is "Mobile app", "Tablet app",  and "Smartphone app".  These things almost never fund,  and a number of them that did fund did so because it advertised "PC game".  So having a plan to go to Kickstarter to fund a platform that almost never funds is a terrible business decision.  It also should've been a huge warning flag about how large a market it really is.

Finally,  they asked for $425,000.  For a mobile app.  That basically consists of file storage, an RNG, and ebook functionality.  After having already spent money to try and produce that.  $425,000 is enough to produce full games,  Dead State was done on $335k.  Jagged Alliance Flashback was done on $368k.  Grim Dawn is being done on $535k.  It's very confusing why pretty substantial full blown video games can be done for less than what they're asking for to finish something that already has had a significant amount of money invested in it.  Something is very seriously wrong when full blown video games are produced and released for less than what is being asked for a mobile app.

Trapdoor needs to take a step back and review their business plans and budgeting,  the problems aren't with the RPG community here.


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## mouselim (Dec 23, 2014)

Fully agree with almost all the posters - Trapdoor definitely went in thinking that just because (a) they are kicked out by WoTC, (b) they offer an alternative to WoTC and we (the public) have to support them. Just like a small software company appearing on the market and said that unless we support them, then we're lackeys of Microsoft or Apple...sad.

Anyway, the entire morningstar project is too vague and cloud-based sucks (doesn't matter whether its google, microsoft or apple or any other companies). Definitely walking away from this...


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## was (Dec 23, 2014)

Rygar said:


> They don't understand the market




...I agree with that statement.  IME, a significant portion of the gaming community is simply not that tech savvy.  They cherish their books, print out pdfs from desktop computers and are more than content with using pencils to update their paper character sheets.  Most of the folks that I game with do not even have tablets.  And, yes, they are more than happy with the status quo which offers both digital and printed resources.    

...Traditionally, many rpgs have prided themselves on the fact that you did not have to spend a lot of money to play.  Moving to an all digital format requiring a tablet, and an on-line service, requires an expenditure that many in the gaming community will not be willing, or able, to make.  It maybe the future of gaming, and ahead of its time, but it threatens to leave a lot of current gamers out of the experience.

...Given these factors, asking the community for $425,000 seems a bit unrealistic.


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## doctorhook (Dec 23, 2014)

I came for the news, but stayed for the schadenfreude!


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## FitzTheRuke (Dec 23, 2014)

It's really too bad.  I was pulling for Trapdoor to make an awesome useful tool, but what I've seen of it was so far away from done that I can't even imagine what done might look like.  They've done a terrible job of showing us what we'd be looking at, I don't know why they're surprised people aren't forking over the cash.


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## TrippyHippy (Dec 23, 2014)

On the evidence of Kickstarter, and other attempts to reach out, I’d suggest that there really isn’t as much market for these things as Codename Morningstar thinks. For me, some legal pdf’s of the corerulebooks and maybe an online magazine is about all that’s needed.


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## TrickyUK (Dec 23, 2014)

I agree with some many comments and I'm not wanting to simply repeat them all. For me the initial goal was too big. It does sound like a great concept and I could see me using it, but I would much preferred a lower initial goal with great stretch goals.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 23, 2014)

For me, it's a lot of money for what they're doing and what they're doing seems really nebulous and indistinct (especially as it compares to their cheap-to-free competitors). Tabletops, character builders, campaign managers, none of this is fresh territory. The freshest was their ebook/adventure marketplace plan, which, while interesting, wasn't half-a-million-dollars interesting. There wasn't a lot of factual information on any of these elements, so the case couldn't be made. And being tethered to one ruleset wasn't ideal. 

Now, the NEXT team to propose a campaign suite and target it at maybe $100k or so...that might work.


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## Blackbrrd (Dec 23, 2014)

I tried the 5e character builder, and it had some pretty big design flaws in my opinion. Like not being able to change parts of your build (for instance background) after selecting other options. This doesn't work for me since I go back and forth as I try to create the character that works. If I knew everything up front, I wouldn't really need a character builder. The response I got regarding this issue was that it would require a relatively big refactoring to fix. Not promising.

Regarding the rest of their product, I think they spent too little time showing what their software can do, and how to do it - or at least how they intend it to work, with some good examples. As it is, it looked to be doing relatively little extra compared to traditional module publishing.

The pricing is also something that put me off. As I see it, their main features that aren't in other products is the module publishing bit, but that requires 3rd party publishers to use it, and the normal way to handle this is to take a cut, not have the end user pay up front.

I would like to see this project funded, it might be awesome with awful marketing, but as it looks now it won't fund and they will have wasted time and effort, not being unable to complete the project. Which is a bit sad.


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## Gnarl45 (Dec 23, 2014)

I'm interested in many of the tools they are offering but I have no need for Pathfinder-specific stuff, I have no interest in paying for the development of a tablet or smartphone application that I'm not going to use, and I have no interest in a subscription-based web application.

I do share their vision. I don't share their technological, commerial, and marketing choices.


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## turkeygiant (Dec 23, 2014)

Blackbrrd said:


> I tried the 5e character builder, and it had some pretty big design flaws in my opinion. Like not being able to change parts of your build (for instance background) after selecting other options. This doesn't work for me since I go back and forth as I try to create the character that works. If I knew everything up front, I wouldn't really need a character builder. The response I got regarding this issue was that it would require a relatively big refactoring to fix. Not promising.




That was something that dumbfounded me too in the Beta, the character editor that didn't let you edit parts of your character, that's a issue. I actually never though to look and see if they have solved that issue for their proposed kickstarter release.


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## Blackwarder (Dec 23, 2014)

I just want to say that having played with this at gencon the iOS version was much further along than the web version.

My main problem is that it doesn't support 5e and I have no intrest in PF.

Just my 2 cents.

Warder


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## Wulfang (Dec 23, 2014)

Here are my reasons for not backing the Kickstarter:

A. I signed up for the DEMO but never got to see it, even after emailing them twice. Other then a couple of screenshots I have NO CLUE what the app looks like or how it functions.

B. The app is designed to support Pathfinder, an RPG I do not play. And as much as people are saying that PF is the 'most popular RPG out there", from my personal experience of all the gamers I know in person, D&D is the the most popular RPG, not PF.

C. I do not and many players do not care for a player-based app. But I do see allot of demand for a DM app (especially for myself as a DM). So I am not happy with the status quo. However, other then vague references, there have been very little CONCRETE references as to what the DM side of the application can do. 

Can it open multiple pdfs at once?
Can it flip easily between NPCs?
Can it generate monsters and NPCs?
Does it have a search function?
Does it have an initiative tracker? 
Does it have a name generator?
Does it have a music app (similar to Syrinscape)?
etc.

All the kickstarter video says "This app will allow you to share stories" well I don't care about sharing my stories, I want an app that will help the efficiency of me DMing my story.

D. Its the holidays, I have no money left lol, especially for a kickstarter of a project I am not sure will be useful to me.


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## Morrus (Dec 23, 2014)

Sylvain_L said:


> And as much as people are saying that PF is the 'most popular RPG out there", from my personal experience of all the gamers I know in person, D&D is the the most popular RPG, not PF.




I think you're misunderstanding why people are saying that.  

They're not saying "it is the most popular RPG _with you and your friends_ and therefore you personally must back the Kickstarter"; they're saying "it's the most popular RPG _in the world_, so there should theoretically be enough Pathfinder fans to replace the lost 5E fans with the correct marketing".


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## TaiChara (Dec 23, 2014)

With that much passive aggressive attitude spilling out ("not pledging is telling the industry that you are happy with the status quo", seriously?), they certainly won't get a dime from me.

To say nothing of the fool decision of running a Kickstarter with that kind of goal during the bloody holiday season of all times -- and then being "disappointed" at the lack of turnout.  That kind of poor basic business sense, or even common sense, doesn't speak well for the rest of the venture.


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## Wulfang (Dec 23, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I think you're misunderstanding why people are saying that.
> 
> They're not saying "it is the most popular RPG _with you and your friends_ and therefore you personally must back the Kickstarter"; they're saying "it's the most popular RPG _in the world_, so there should theoretically be enough Pathfinder fans to replace the lost 5E fans with the correct marketing".




Yeah I understood it, but to be frank I don't know if I believe that statistic because my experience with the industry is very different. That is what I was trying to say  ... and I am probably wrong of course because I don't see the 'big picture' as whoever makes these stats do.


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## Morrus (Dec 23, 2014)

Sylvain_L said:


> Yeah I understood it, but to be frank I don't know if I believe that statistic because my experience with the industry is very different. That is what I was trying to say  ... and I am probably wrong of course because I don't see the 'big picture' as whoever makes these stats do.




You know that saying about anecdotes and data, right?  That's like me saying I don't believe there are more Americans than British people because I don't see any around me.


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## Wulfang (Dec 23, 2014)

Morrus said:


> You know that saying about anecdotes and data, right?  That's like me saying I don't believe there are more Americans than British people because I don't see any around me.




Yeah well exactly my point, so take what I said with a grain of salt.

- -

That being said, I feel I still need a better demonstration of what the app can do for a DM in order to give me anymore interest in the app.

I was interested enough to sign up for the BETA (although I am still annoyed I never got to see it), but I need better assurance if I am going to invest in it.

So yeah, what I am saying is they are wrong. Its not about me being happy with the status quo, its about me not being positive the app will be useful to me, therefore not worth the risk of investment.


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## painted_klown (Dec 23, 2014)

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the idea of any software that isn't self contained. To me, any software that's "cloud based" means that I actually buy nothing, instead, I pay my money to get a GUI to access stuff online. IMO anything cloud based means "bad deal" for me. I feel I actually get NOTHING when it comes to anything cloud based. Merely renting access....

What happens in 25 years when I want to pull up our old characters, and re-run that adventure we're still talking about? Oh yeah....those servers went down YEARS ago. 

Not to be a wet blanket, but any company that has spent $1M+ USD and still has nothing to show, nor even a clear definition of what they offer, may not be around very long even if they do fund.


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## mcbobbo (Dec 23, 2014)

painted_klown said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the idea of any software that isn't self contained. To me, any software that's "cloud based" means that I actually buy nothing, instead, I pay my money to get a GUI to access stuff online. IMO anything cloud based means "bad deal" for me. I feel I actually get NOTHING when it comes to anything cloud based. Merely renting access....
> 
> What happens in 25 years when I want to pull up our old characters, and re-run that adventure we're still talking about? Oh yeah....those servers went down YEARS ago.
> 
> Not to be a wet blanket, but any company that has spent $1M+ USD and still has nothing to show, nor even a clear definition of what they offer, may not be around very long even if they do fund.




I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the selection of your preferred (non-cloud) software titles is getting smaller by the day.  Even Microsoft is jumping in with both feet.  OpenSource is a thing, and probably always will be, but it has never been a commercially viable thing in and of itself.  Cloud is the future, my friend.

And that 'what happens in 25 years' is all part of the plan, too.  They call that 'planned obsolescence' and chances are you've already experienced it.  Or do you still have a floppy drive for all those old disks you used to have?


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## Jackal2100 (Dec 23, 2014)

The Tome Show just came out with a QA session with Chris and Rachael discussing many of the concerns brought up in the last episode of theirs. http://www.thetomeshow.com/e/round-table-48-codename-morningstar-kickstarter-ii/


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Dec 23, 2014)

painted_klown said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the idea of any software that isn't self contained. To me, any software that's "cloud based" means that I actually buy nothing, instead, I pay my money to get a GUI to access stuff online. IMO anything cloud based means "bad deal" for me. I feel I actually get NOTHING when it comes to anything cloud based. Merely renting access....
> 
> What happens in 25 years when I want to pull up our old characters, and re-run that adventure we're still talking about? Oh yeah....those servers went down YEARS ago.
> 
> Not to be a wet blanket, but any company that has spent $1M+ USD and still has nothing to show, nor even a clear definition of what they offer, may not be around very long even if they do fund.




Well I don't know about 25 years from now but I know that tools that we are required to be online in order to use really lose attractiveness to me.  And I totally agree with your last statement.


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## painted_klown (Dec 23, 2014)

mcbobbo said:


> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the selection of your preferred (non-cloud) software titles is getting smaller by the day.  Even Microsoft is jumping in with both feet.  OpenSource is a thing, and probably always will be, but it has never been a commercially viable thing in and of itself.  Cloud is the future, my friend.



 It may be the future, but I don't like it at all. I have never purchased any software that requires being online in order to use it. Free software, yes. Purchased software, not one bit. Big difference IMO. 




mcbobbo said:


> Or do you still have a floppy drive for all those old disks you used to have?




My first PC had a CD ROM. Yes, I still have some of those CDs. The ones I cared about anyway.


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## Hollow Man (Dec 23, 2014)

Jackal2100 said:


> The Tome Show just came out with a QA session with Chris and Rachael discussing many of the concerns brought up in the last episode of theirs. http://www.thetomeshow.com/e/round-table-48-codename-morningstar-kickstarter-ii/




I'm over 36 minutes in and so far there is nothing of note mentioned. It's too bad the guy conducting the interview is the only one in last week's podcast that is a fan of the project. He's less likely to voice the concerns the group (and us) did.

Right now they're going over the price. It reminds me they've already spent a million, and how absurd it is that they went through that much cash with nothing to show for it. Seems like poor business planning on their part to enter an agreement with WotC that could end with them spending all that money with no recourse in case the deal went south. 

Matney is now talking about how he's flabbergasted people keep wondering about the amount asked for the Kickstarter, when no one cares how much Apple spent on the iPad. Well, Apple funded it themselves, not with me as an investor. Investors damn well should be asking how their money is being used!

-HM


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## Morrus (Dec 23, 2014)

Hollow Man said:


> Investors damn well should be asking how their money is being used!




I think you might be misunderstanding how Kickstarter works. You're not an investor.

You're a customer. You're not buying shares.


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## dafrca (Dec 23, 2014)

>>"not pledging is telling the industry that you are happy with the status quo."

Or it could mean I just don't have any faith in you and your company to produce something I want to own and buy into. 

Yes, I realize this is out of "context" but even in context it is arrogant to assume the only choice I have is you or nothing. 


Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/conten...DENAME-MORNINGSTAR-Doesn-t-Fund#ixzz3MlG4g5Il


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## Hollow Man (Dec 23, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I think you might be misunderstanding how Kickstarter works. You're not an investor.
> 
> You're a customer. You're not buying shares.




You can take me to task on my use of the word investor. But the fact is that unlike buying from Apple, I'm not 100% guaranteed a product, and Kickstarter won't help me in case a project doesn't deliver. People shouldn't look at Kickstarter as an e-store, like Amazon.

-HM


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## Morrus (Dec 23, 2014)

Hollow Man said:


> You can take me to task on my use of the word investor. But the fact is that unlike buying from Apple, I'm not 100% guaranteed a product, and Kickstarter won't help me in case a project doesn't deliver. People shouldn't look at Kickstarter as an e-store, like Amazon.
> 
> -HM




I'm not trying to take you to task, I promise.


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## rjfTrebor (Dec 23, 2014)

if anything, this just restores a bit of my faith in the gaming public. they've made it clear that you need more than a PR team and a sales pitch to get money from us.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Dec 23, 2014)

When I hear they have went through a million two and are still in this kind of dire straits I think of the PC gaming companies in the late 90's who were headed by big names and seemed to be more into having posh offices with all the latest distractions and whatnot than putting out a product. 

And I guess they think non PF gamers should buy this just to...make a point to the RPG industry?  

oooooooooooooooooooook. 

Best of luck guys.


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## transtemporal (Dec 23, 2014)

For me, its not the cost or the team size. Ive been in software 15 years so that seems reasonable to me actually. Its maybe... the language thats putting me off? Overpromising and underdelivering is a common tactic for companies that dont have any faith in their product, or they just want to get it out the door as quickly as possible or they know its a bad product and they want to cash in before word spreads. Steam is LITTERED with these products.

On top of that, the wotc thing has hurt the product. Theyre naive if they think it hasnt. Sure, we know wotc are a bunch of clueless idiots when it comes to software but still, falling out over commercials doesnt look good. In addition, if they do complete the product without wotc blessing, wont wotc just issue a C&D?


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## turkeygiant (Dec 24, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I think you're misunderstanding why people are saying that.
> 
> They're not saying "it is the most popular RPG _with you and your friends_ and therefore you personally must back the Kickstarter"; they're saying "it's the most popular RPG _in the world_, so there should theoretically be enough Pathfinder fans to replace the lost 5E fans with the correct marketing".




At this point I don't know if its really safe to say that Pathfinder is still the bestselling/most popular RPG system out there, I have a feeling that once the numbers come in from the release of 5e it will well and surely be back on top. The only reason WotC ever dropped down the list in the first place was because they slowed down 4e production in favour of developing 5e. A company willingly putting a line on hiatus may lower their sales, but doesn't mean they are any less popular. I don't think sales can ever be the absolute measure of a game line's popularity.


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## turkeygiant (Dec 24, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I think you might be misunderstanding how Kickstarter works. You're not an investor.
> 
> You're a customer. You're not buying shares.




Actually you are a "Backer", there is a reason kickstarter uses that word, It's very clear in their fine print that you don't have any of the protections/rights of a Investor or a Customer. The well run Kickstarters that gain positive community following more often than not will treat you as a Investor or Customer anyways despite not being obligated to, they know goodwill goes a very long way!


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2014)

turkeygiant said:


> At this point I don't know if its really safe to say that Pathfinder is still the bestselling/most popular RPG system out there, I have a feeling that once the numbers come in from the release of 5e it will well and surely be back on top. The only reason WotC ever dropped down the list in the first place was because they slowed down 4e production in favour of developing 5e. A company willingly putting a line on hiatus may lower their sales, but doesn't mean they are any less popular. I don't think sales can ever be the absolute measure of a game line's popularity.




Meh.  We use the most recent figures.  We'll use the new ones next quarter.  If you want to get into the "my personal guess about the figures in-between quarters is more accurate than the figures at the end of the most recent quarter" game, that's fine. 

I predict D&D will have the #1 spot next quarter (I may be wrong but that's my bet), but the data we have so far has Pathfinder up until now. 



> I don't think sales can ever be the absolute measure of a game line's popularity.




I prefer tea-leaves myself. What measure do you prefer?


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2014)

turkeygiant said:


> Actually you are a "Backer", there is a reason kickstarter uses that word, It's very clear in their fine print that you don't have any of the protections/rights of a Investor or a Customer. The well run Kickstarters that gain positive community following more often than not will treat you as a Investor or Customer anyways despite not being obligated to, they know goodwill goes a very long way!




You're right.  You're not even a customer. But, importantly to the post we're discussing, you're definitely _not_ an investor!


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## Hollow Man (Dec 24, 2014)

Morrus said:


> You're right.  You're not even a customer. But, importantly to the post we're discussing, you're definitely _not_ an investor!




I was really trying to say one is invested in the product. Point is that Kickstarter backers have more interest in the products and companies then the average consumer, which is why they want to know where the money is going. Which is why Matney bringing up that no one cares how much Apple spent on iPad development isn't a fair comparison. Kickstarter backers are a different breed than normal consumers and buyers. 

But my point isn't worth arguing about. 

-HM


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2014)

Hollow Man said:


> I was really trying to say one is invested in the product.




Sure.  That means something very differently to what the word "investor" is understood to mean, though. I took away a different post to the one you thought you typed  I know. Intrawebs. Language. 

Interest is a product is not the same as being an investor. An investor buys shares and the associate risk or gain. A Kickstarter backer doesn't do that.



> Which is why Matney bringing up that no one cares how much Apple spent on iPad development isn't a fair comparison.




I disagree.  If the popular backer level gave a clear immediate (beta) reward and kept growing with stretch goals, the funding total would be far higher than it is.  That $425K is your personal whipping boy that you can't stop going on about, but it's not so egregious.  If it were a stretch goal in an differently structured Kickstarter, it might even have been reached by now. The total is a perspective Pr problem, but it's not the fundamental problem (I know it's _your_ fundamental problem, though).


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## Hollow Man (Dec 24, 2014)

Morrus said:


> The total is a perspective Pr problem, but it's not the fundamental problem (I know it's _your_ fundamental problem, though).




It's one problem, and the one that astonished me when I first saw the Kickstarter. But it's not my main problem. My first main problem is that right now I don't have faith they can deliver a product, even if they raised the money they want. 

My second main problem is that they lost the 5e license, and so even if they prove me wrong and can actually release a product that works as advertised,  it's unclear to me what they'll be able to do to support it fully in the future, even if WotC releases a new SRD. This is what saddens me the most. The day that DungeonScape got cancelled, man, I was disappointed.

Trust me, I'd rather they succeed. I was a big fan when this was announced by WotC, and that's why I continue to follow it. 5e needs this sort of thing so I'd be happy to be proven wrong by them.

-HM


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2014)

Hollow Man said:


> It's one problem, and the one that astonished me when I first saw the Kickstarter. But it's not my main problem.




Really?  Man, in that case you need a better PR guy!


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## Hollow Man (Dec 24, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Really?  Man, in that case you need a better PR guy!




Now you know why I'm an IT guy, and not a business kinda guy! I never said I could do better than them, heh. 

EDIT: Although I suppose I may have implied it! But yeah, trust me, there's a reason I'm not in business...I wouldn't ever want to have the responsibilities Matney has. 

-HM


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## DMZ2112 (Dec 24, 2014)

was said:


> ...I agree with that statement.  IME, a significant portion of the gaming community is simply not that tech savvy.  They cherish their books, print out pdfs from desktop computers and are more than content with using pencils to update their paper character sheets.




I'm not sure 'tech savvy' is the right phrase here.  For me, at least, the issue is that books, paper, and pencils are still the most efficient means of indexing and modifying the information necessary for tabletop in real time.  I'm plenty tech savvy -- tech savvy enough to know that the best tech for this job is still made of wood.  When I'm shopping for a new application, requirement A-1 is that it does the job more efficiently than the one I already have.  Hero Lab and Realm Works are great for prep, but at the table even they are just too slow.  My session notes still consist of a sheet of chaotic looseleaf.

Oh, s**t, that's totally my alignment.  Chaotic Looseleaf.  



> an on-line service




AND EVEN IF THE TOOL WAS EFFICIENT, this would make it a great big nope for me.  I strenuously object to the idea of subscription software.  Ten years ago I would have said it was a necessary evil, but the last decade has conclusively proven that a quality evolving experience can be funded by at-will in-app purchases.  I don't need to pay you every month for the digital version of a new book a few times a year!

So, yeah, the status quo is okay by me.


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## turkeygiant (Dec 24, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Meh.  We use the most recent figures.  We'll use the new ones next quarter.  If you want to get into the "my personal guess about the figures in-between quarters is more accurate than the figures at the end of the most recent quarter" game, that's fine.
> 
> I predict D&D will have the #1 spot next quarter (I may be wrong but that's my bet), but the data we have so far has Pathfinder up until now.
> 
> I prefer tea-leaves myself. What measure do you prefer?




Haha, I mean sales have a part to play, but a really accurate measure would consider brick and mortar sales, plus direct/amazon/drivethrurpg sales, and then balancing that against polling on what games people are actually sitting at the table and playing (which frankly should be the most heavily weighted factor in determining popularity). The sales numbers you use are never going to perfectly match up what people are actually playing, Just because 4e slowed down on their sales didn't mean that people suddenly stopped playing D&D, hell people still play D&D with editions that have been out of print for decades.

I'm sure your analysis is pretty good for the sales numbers, but it shouldn't necessarily be confused as an accurate representation of how popular and embraced the systems are.

I would love to see a Poll: What rpg systems and editions have you played in the last year, with the option to pick more than one because my group has played at least three.


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2014)

turkeygiant said:


> Haha, I mean sales have a part to play, but a really accurate measure would consider brick and mortar sales, plus direct/amazon/drivethrurpg sales, and then balancing that against polling on what games people are actually sitting at the table and playing (which frankly should be the most heavily weighted factor in determining popularity). The sales numbers you use are never going to perfectly match up what people are actually playing, Just because 4e slowed down on their sales didn't mean that people suddenly stopped playing D&D, hell people still play D&D with editions that have been out of print for decades.
> 
> I'm sure your analysis is pretty good for the sales numbers, but it shouldn't necessarily be confused as an accurate representation of how popular and embraced the systems are.
> 
> I would love to see a Poll: What rpg systems and editions have you played in the last year, with the option to pick more than one because my group has played at least three.




It's not my analysis.

Also, it's a sample.

And, as a counterpoint, you can look at what games are being talked about.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/hotgames.php

(though if you exclude the official sites, D&D is ahead there)

I mean, you can cite anecdotes and opinions, but we go with what data we have. It may be imperfect, but it's an order of magnitude better than "there are no Chinese people in my street, therefore Chinese people do not exist".


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## was (Dec 24, 2014)

DMZ2112 said:


> Oh, s**t, that's totally my alignment.  Chaotic Looseleaf.




Ahem...now that I have wiped off all the soda I just snorted onto the screen I can say that totally describes most of the folks I have gamed with.


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## turkeygiant (Dec 24, 2014)

Morrus said:


> It's not my analysis.
> 
> Also, it's a sample.
> 
> ...




That's pretty cool Iv'e never seen that before! I definitely think that's way more representative of how "popular" a RPG is, at least among the people who lurk online talking about them (like me...). I wonder if it would be possible to use the Google trending to find broader references and search requests to the different categories across the entire internet? I messed around with it a bit and Pathfinder and Dungeons and Dragons were the only systems that had any search traffic, at least as far as I could tell in 5 min.


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2014)

turkeygiant said:


> That's pretty cool Iv'e never seen that before! I definitely think that's way more representative of how "popular" a RPG is, at least among the people who lurk online taking about them (like me...). I wonder if it would be possible to use the Google trending to find broader references and search requests to the different categories across the entire internet? I messed around with it a bit and Pathfinder and Dungeons and Dragons were the only systems that had any search traffic, at least as far as I could tell in 5 min.




The word Pathfinder is primarily associated with a car. That makes Google search comparisons difficult.


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## InexplicableVic (Dec 24, 2014)

Erik Tenkar has a pretty good take on this: http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2014/12/wayward-kickstarter-codename.html


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## turkeygiant (Dec 24, 2014)

Morrus said:


> The word Pathfinder is primarily associated with a car. That makes Google search comparisons difficult.




Google can usually differentiate between different uses of the same word, as you enter in the search term you need to make sure you choose the right sub heading.

Edit: Yeah like this:
http://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=/m/04dzk1_, /m/026q9&cmpt=q


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## Nikosandros (Dec 24, 2014)

Morrus said:


> You're right.  You're not even a customer. But, importantly to the post we're discussing, you're definitely _not_ an investor!



You're right that a KS backer is not an investor, but - as you say - he's not a standard customer. This means that it's normal for a backer to be more concerned about the viability of the project. If I buy a book from Paizo, that book has already been published. If I pledge for KS, I take the chance that the product will never be created or be substantially different from the original description. It's not so strange then that potential backers take a long hard look at the broader picture, taking into consideration things such as the credibility of the business plan or the long term viability of a subscription based project.

That said, and reiterating my reservations about this project, I'm still very surprised about the amount of venom that I've seen about Morningstar.


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## InexplicableVic (Dec 24, 2014)

Nikosandros said:


> That said, and reiterating my reservations about this project, I'm still very surprised about the amount of venom that I've seen about Morningstar.




I think the displeasure with Trapdoor Technologies' position is valid, based upon the history of how we got here and the hubris embodied in the response. 

I tried the beta for their D&D character generation product, and thought, after several character creation attempts, "Wow, this has a LOT of bugs...it was probably not even ready for beta-testing." WOTC then pulls the plug on it, for undisclosed reasons. I can understand Trapdoor's frustration, and how it wants to recover its investment. So it comes up with a somewhat new idea that hopefully will work with WOTC's competitor, but needs $425k to finish the project. Instead of funding it itself and selling a good product to consumers, it's asking the consumers to pay up front for basically an IDEA. That's asking a lot, but fine...until Trapdoor resorts to the "guilt trip" approach to begging for funding that makes assumptions that simply aren't true, insinuating that consumers who don't fund this idea are somehow complicit in the status quo (which is perceived as bad). That's akin to someone at a farmers' market yelling, "If you don't buy my organic broccoli, you're a jerk and supporting the evil efforts of huge agriculture companies that are destroying our society." Only there's no actual broccoli, but a promise that I'm going to grow some and possibly give it to you later. 

Part of the problem is the Kickstarter funding approach in general when it comes to ideas as opposed to finished products. Dungeon Tiles, Reaper Bones -- those Kickstarters (2 highly successful ones for each company) were done because the companies had a track record of producing...not the idea of minis or resin tiles. Sure, that's different from software to an extent, but...

Take the example of id software and Doom. They released the first 10 levels for free. After just about everybody played that, they couldn't resist paying $40 for the rest of the game. It's the drug distribution model: give it to them for free, get them hooked, and then they'll buy your product. It has been used successfully in the video game industry time and time again, with the release of free demos (of course, those demos have to be good). That COULD be done here. But Trapdoor is doing the reverse: consumers tried its D&D product, and it was not something that we felt compelled to buy, by any means--it was buggy and unfinished, but to the extent that it was confidence-shaking. On the heels of that, it now asks for a huge amount of funding...but the users have little faith in Trapdoor's skills. 

Trapdoor seemingly doesn't realize that the beta testers who are interested in playing D&D 5e are probably not at all that interested in Pathfinder. Let's also not forget all the D&D players hoping for digital tools that are now going to wait even longer--and the perception is because Trapdoor was not competent enough to get that job done. I'd say they would be frustrated, annoyed, and having no faith in Trapdoor. 

So, that brings us to the thread's title and Trapdoor's hubris: Against that backdrop, a little humility would have served Trapdoor better. But more importantly, it could have released some type of free demo--to whatever limited extent--that was bug-free, and would entice people to fund a new project (to unlock features not yet developed). It didn't do that, and now it is effectively trying to guilt trip people into donating money for a concept with no proof that it will actually work. It's no surprise that people would find this completely off-putting.


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## Lord Rasputin (Dec 24, 2014)

Forgive my ignorance, but does an akin app exist for Pathfinder? If not, then it makes sense to develop the tech for it, and later apply it to the newer 5e. (It also makes sense to go iOS first. It has the bigger installed tablet base and the iPad sales issues are exaggerated since the tablets rushing into its place are cheap ones aimed at folks who don't buy many apps and don't update their copies of Android.) I share everyone's indignance at Trapdoor's pitch, since it makes no sense to insult those whose money you want, but it needs to get something out the door and fast.


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## nerfherder (Dec 24, 2014)

I'm almost tempted to back it because it looks like a win-win:
a) if it doesn't reach its goal, I get my money back;
b) in order to reach their goal, they will have to demonstrate that this is the best thing for gaming since sliced bread - and I'd like some of that!


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## DMZ2112 (Dec 24, 2014)

nerfherder said:


> I'm almost tempted to back it because it looks like a win-win:
> a) if it doesn't reach its goal, I get my money back;
> b) in order to reach their goal, they will have to demonstrate that this is the best thing for gaming since sliced bread - and I'd like some of that!




That's how Kickstarter gets you, Nerfherder.  Unfortunately there are dozens if not hundreds of ways for a company to demonstrate that their product is the best thing since sliced bread and then mysteriously _not deliver that product_.

Back if you want to back, but don't do it because it is a win/win.  That's a damn clever illusion.


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## Hollow Man (Dec 24, 2014)

DMZ2112 said:


> Back if you want to back, but don't do it because it is a win/win.  That's a damn clever illusion.




Yes, I personally only back projects I'm convinced will deliver a product. If one isn't convinced, then back if you truly believe in what the project is trying to accomplish, because if you don't get your reward, there's no guarantee you'll get your money back. 

-HM


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## Nikosandros (Dec 24, 2014)

Spartan506 said:


> I think the displeasure with Trapdoor Technologies' position is valid, based upon the history of how we got here and the hubris embodied in the response.



I actually agree with you on almost everything that you say. I'm just saying that all of this, simply made me decide not to back the project, but it didn't make me angry with the company.


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## InexplicableVic (Dec 24, 2014)

Hollow Man said:


> Yes, I personally only back projects I'm convinced will deliver a product. If one isn't convinced, then back if you truly believe in what the project is trying to accomplish, because if you don't get your reward, there's no guarantee you'll get your money back.
> 
> -HM




This is important. Erik Tenkar has a pretty good list of "Wayward Kickstarter" projects that couldn't deliver on their promises after funding. Check out www.tenkarstavern.com for a whole bunch of failures. I've only backed 2 Kickstarters -- Dwarven Forge's Cavern Tiles (because I missed out on Dungeon Tiles) and Reaper Miniatures Bones II (missed out on Bones I). I'd back others IF the person behind it had proven success in the past (not necessarily on Kickstarter). Unfortunately, Trapdoor's past record is limited to the very weak beta that WOTC shut down...not good. So, when it comes to Kickstarter: *CAVEAT EMPTOR*.


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## Curmudjinn (Dec 24, 2014)

What Trapdoor needs is a new project manager. Matney is clearly unprepared for the many aspects the project and kickstarter are failing at. Proper financing, team size, clear strategy and goals, etc.

The whole thing has been very seat-of-pants. They need to hire a real business manager.


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## fjw70 (Dec 24, 2014)

One interesting thing is they say that the rules don't matter and it is all about the story for them. Then they talk about character creation taking too long and spending hours per game session looking up rules. This tool is suppose to mitigate those issues but a simpler way to handle those things is to play a simpler system, which shouldn't be an issue if it isn't about the rules.


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## nerfherder (Dec 24, 2014)

DMZ2112 said:


> That's how Kickstarter gets you, Nerfherder.  Unfortunately there are dozens if not hundreds of ways for a company to demonstrate that their product is the best thing since sliced bread and then mysteriously _not deliver that product_.
> 
> Back if you want to back, but don't do it because it is a win/win.  That's a damn clever illusion.




Actually, I think you're right.  I'll probably stick with my original instinct.


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## Cergorach (Dec 24, 2014)

Same issues here:
1.) unclear what the product does exactly
2.) pricing is unclear and seems high if it's a cloud based system that will probably require annual fees.
3.) currently not supporting a system that I actually play (currently 5E)
4.) the intro movie is just a pain to watch, no real information on the KS
5.) the previous deal with WotC and 5E might be iffy, especially when combined with the above

I have absolutely no problem with cloud services, I'm a Spotify, Marvel Unlimited, Adobe CC subscriber. And I feel I'm getting value for money, I have absolutely no feeling of that with this KS. I've backed a ton of KS (20), with some I spent way to much money, but again, I always felt I got value for my money or I really, _really_ wanted something to get made. Again, no feeling of that here, because it's quite unclear what's happening here.

They either have abysmal marketing or their just incompetent and that doesn't bode well for that application their selling (if we ever figure out what it does exactly)... When I look at the Lone Wolf Development website, I know exactly what kind of product their selling, learn from that.

I'm actually quite happy with the current status quo in RPG world. There's actually a ton of different apps out there, some are free, some are paid for. But most start relatively small and set more realistic goals...

That said, might just not be an app that's aimed at me or my crowd of players. We all have tablets, mostly iPads, but the only reason we use ONE at the table is because someone forgot to print out the maps we where using... Might be a cool idea if there's an app that allows you to do fog of war easily, but not for character sheets, not for messaging, not for dice rolling. We're a high tech crowd, but even we want to look at each other instead of our tablets (we do that the rest of the week!) during a pnp RPG evening.

We use apps for character creation, looking up rules outside of the game, I've used apps to prepare as a DM (Roleplaying Master, PCGen, etc.), even used to use RPM to track complex combat during high level 3E games on a laptop. Don't want to see players with tablets and laptops out during a game, don't really want my laptop/tablet out during play as a player... We have a ton of MMORPG and classic cRPG games for that that don't require complex planning schema's to get the whole gaming group together once a month (if that).


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## Dausuul (Dec 25, 2014)

SharnDM said:


> Man, if it's one thing Codename Morningstar is teaching me it's that being open with all the behind the scenes stuff is a mistake apparently.  This community sure is turning on Trapdoor Technologies fast!



What "behind the scenes stuff" have they been open with? They say a lot of words, but the words don't say much.


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## Dausuul (Dec 25, 2014)

lkj said:


> What you really want-- in this age of digital information-- is a content management system in which all the pieces of information you need are always one touch away. Essentially you want all the information you need in one place all the time, no matter what you are doing. And, finally, we have sufficient technology to make that possible.



We've had the technology for many years. What you're talking about boils down to little more than hyperlinks and search bars; d20srd.org on steroids. And d20srd.org did not take a 16-person team and a million-two to make. To the best of my knowledge, it was built by one guy working in his spare time.

I keep hearing good things from people who've actually tried the software. So I assume they do in fact have something solid built for 5E using iOS. However, I don't believe it's anything revolutionary, as they keep suggesting with stuff like the "status quo" comment. I hope we do get a 5E OGL and they put the iOS version of CN:MS on the market. I'd be willing to pay decent money for a good set of 5E e-tools. What I'm not willing to do is pay up front for a set of e-tools whose quality I can't judge for myself (even if it weren't targeting Pathfinder). I can run just fine with no electronic tools at all, using Ye Aulde Pencil and Paper; it's a convenience, not a necessity. Since Pathfinder fans already have some decent e-tools, I expect they'd be even harder to convert.


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## trancejeremy (Dec 25, 2014)

Another problem with it that occurred to me, is that you are presumably locked into their ecosystem when it comes to adventures. Yet most people, especially those in the current target audience (Pathfinder), probably have a large host of PDF adventures.

Presumably you would be able to somehow enter in those adventures manually, but that would be a lot of work.


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## frankthedm (Dec 25, 2014)

3catcircus said:


> We already know that WotC (having had bad experiences previously), finally wised up and dumped them at the nth sign of trouble (we don't know if n is 1, 2, or some larger quantity of missed deadlines or functionality).



This can't be said loud enough.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Dec 25, 2014)

I'd be curious to know what sort of issues they ran into working with WotC.

I work in software as a project manager doing custom solutions, so 400k doesn't make me blush for something the size of that.  1.2 million, though, would be a fairly significant project but not out of the ordinary for a large piece of custom corporate software.

I'm curious about the sixteen man team.  I've got about that many developers but we're doing multiple 250-500k projects simultaneously.  I've got one team that can burn through 120k/mo at a billable rate but there are five devs, a senior dev, a PM and an account manager attached to it.  

Not sure what their featureset is, though.  We've done some significant data-driven medical applications for mobile but I haven't had an opportunity to do anything for RPGs.  

A team that size ... maybe 2 PMs working on two areas that are relatively independent (database and UI?), 3 QA engineers ... I'd have 6 devs (3 on back and 3 on front) ... maybe 2 UX engineers in addition or instead of 1-2 of the front end devs.  A senior PM maybe?  Writers? 

--HT


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## fjw70 (Dec 25, 2014)

trancejeremy said:


> Another problem with it that occurred to me, is that you are presumably locked into their ecosystem when it comes to adventures. Yet most people, especially those in the current target audience (Pathfinder), probably have a large host of PDF adventures.
> 
> Presumably you would be able to somehow enter in those adventures manually, but that would be a lot of work.




That is a concern. If they had an official deal with Paizo to publish PF adventures in this format the I think the product would have more appeal.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 25, 2014)

fjw70 said:


> That is a concern. If they had an official deal with Paizo to publish PF adventures in this format the I think the product would have more appeal.




<WEDDING SINGER>Once again, things that could have been brought to their attention YESTERDAY!</WEDDING SINGER>


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## lkj (Dec 26, 2014)

Dausuul said:


> We've had the technology for many years. What you're talking about boils down to little more than hyperlinks and search bars; d20srd.org on steroids. And d20srd.org did not take a 16-person team and a million-two to make. To the best of my knowledge, it was built by one guy working in his spare time.
> 
> I keep hearing good things from people who've actually tried the software. So I assume they do in fact have something solid built for 5E using iOS. However, I don't believe it's anything revolutionary, as they keep suggesting with stuff like the "status quo" comment. I hope we do get a 5E OGL and they put the iOS version of CN:MS on the market. I'd be willing to pay decent money for a good set of 5E e-tools. What I'm not willing to do is pay up front for a set of e-tools whose quality I can't judge for myself (even if it weren't targeting Pathfinder). I can run just fine with no electronic tools at all, using Ye Aulde Pencil and Paper; it's a convenience, not a necessity. Since Pathfinder fans already have some decent e-tools, I expect they'd be even harder to convert.




To be clear, I was only tryong to address the question about the value over a PDF. It is a bit more complicated than just hyperlinks, given the context sensitivity and the value of a good interface, but yes that's the general idea. And although I suspect what the trapdoor folk are trying to do is cool, I am certainly not suggesting that I know they'll do it well, that you need to believe in them etc. I'm just saying that the idea is something I personally am interested in and that I hope that it happens one way or another.

AD


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## Krypter (Dec 27, 2014)

I'm happy with the status quo. Bye.


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Dec 28, 2014)

I hope they learn from this... and realize that while they asked for a huge ton of money, they did get over $60k pledged and that's no small feat. It just looks bad compared to their overall goals of $425k. If they would have asked for a base goal of $50k and had a revision of what this product is they are offering along with a workable demo I bet this would get well over $60k. 

I also think they have to rethink their pricing on what they are offering. It does seem pretty over priced for what they are offering. 

What does this do that Roll20 or Hero Lab doesn't do?


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## JStillfeather (Dec 28, 2014)

Personally I'd be interested in seeing a working prototype not just vague programming full of bugs and glitches!


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## jaycrockett (Dec 29, 2014)

During Morrus's interview with Trapdoor at Gencon, Rachel Bowen said there were "two and a half" people on the team.  They staffed up to sixteen since then?


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## Gryf_the_knave (Dec 29, 2014)

jaycrockett said:


> During Morrus's interview with Trapdoor at Gencon, Rachel Bowen said there were "two and a half" people on the team.  They staffed up to sixteen since then?




That was in regards to the CS/Community team, not the whole company.


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## 3catcircus (Dec 29, 2014)

Gryf_the_knave said:


> That was in regards to the CS/Community team, not the whole company.




So then it sounds like they are trying to use the kickstarter for one project to fund the overhead for their entire company?  How are other products/projects that they claim are using their technology faring?  I'll reiterate that their website simply states "coming soon" with no additional links to other products, company officer information, other companies/partners using their technology etc.  Meanwhile, their trapdoor books website is offering a grand total of 6 titles.

I'm guessing that they bet the farm on this stupid morningstar thing and are now so far in debt that they can't afford to pay residuals to their grand total of 6 authors - and we don't know how well trapdoor books was doing to begin with - I mean - their own website indicates that they used a kickstarter to fund publication of an author's (Norman Lafave) book...  Think about that for a second.  A publisher.  Whose job it is to publish.  Doesn't have the funding to publish.  And that, they barely managed to scrape by - funding to the tune of 105% with 64 backers.  And the best part - the quote "...*it was an heroic effort in the last hours by Norman.  More than a few frantic phone calls later, some big donors pushed us over the top.*"  So - the author had to do most of the heavy lifting to get his own title published using these guys...  I wonder how many people are really going to buy this book when only 64 people backed it?  Wouldn't it be easier, as an author, to self-publish and throw it out there on Amazon, RPGNow or Lulu?

Doing some more reading on their website - it appears Trapdoor's biggest "innovation" is having advertising embedded in their ebooks that readers can shut off by paying for the book.  Not innovative, and certainly is not going to be keeping their operation afloat for $4.99 per copy.

What I've not yet been able to suss out is whether or not all of their authors also happen to be company employees.  That would be interesting to find out.

The more and more I investigate, the more shady their whole operation feels to me.


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## Morrus (Dec 29, 2014)

3catcircus said:


> their own website indicates that they used a kickstarter to fund publication of an author's (Norman Lafave) book...  Think about that for a second.  A publisher.  Whose job it is to publish.  Doesn't have the funding to publish.




Publishers using Kickstarter to fund publication of books is very common in this industry.


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## 3catcircus (Dec 30, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Publishers using Kickstarter to fund publication of books is very common in this industry.




While KS may be common for RPG publishing, it really isn't all that common for traditional book publishers.  The "about us" on their Trapdoor Books website (which is selling novels, not RPGs) states the following:

"An important note about Trapdoor Books: We do not provide literary agency services, editing services, for-fee-publications, vanity publishing services, vanity anthology services, critiques, marketability analyses, awards banquet scams, etc. *In other words, Trapdoor Books is a traditional publisher – period. For any author we select for publication, we pay real cash advances and a real percentage of sales.* Additionally, Trapdoor Books respects your privacy and will never provide your name or access to your manuscripts to other companies."

The bolded part of that paragraph is what I am referring to.  Traditional publishers don't require their authors to go begging for donations in order to publish their books for them...

Looking at their titles, the MSRP is roughly $26 (hardback), $17 (trade paperback) and $10 (ebook).  At those price points, if this company was actually doing well, they wouldn't need to have their authors use KS to get them to publish.

Again, I have to go back to my gut instinct.  They took a gamble on morningstar and dumped everything into it, resulting in being unable to continue operating their book publishing company and now they need $400k+ in order to keep everything afloat across their entire company, rather than actually paying a small number of developers to continue developing/porting morningstar for Pathfinder.  For a small company, 16 employees is likely the entirety of their employees.  In other words, I think they are attempting to rob Peter to pay Paul...


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## ced1106 (Dec 31, 2014)

As a reviewer on DriveThruRPG, I see the "status quo" as individuals continuing to create new and imaginative content at prices affordable -- even free -- to fellow gamers.


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## Nergal Pendragon (Jan 1, 2015)

Overall, I have several reasons I won't fund this kickstarter.

1) Kickstarter- I've seen too many failed projects on it, so I will only fund ones from people I know will come through. If Pinnacle Entertainment, ENWorld, Beamdog, or Monte Cook made a kickstarter to ask for money to develop a game, I wouldn't hesitate; these are people who have proven, time and again, that they know what they are doing. Even if that kickstarter were a game about pigtossing, I'd still fund it just to see what they'd come up with.

If Paizo formed one, I'd be a bit iffy; what I've seen of their MMO has left me questioning if they have any common sense related to MMOs at all (world-wide PVP reminds me way too much of Runescape and Eve Online, which I suspect will ultimately sink the MMO once the final version is released), and the majority of their successful projects seem to be the ones they fund themselves.

If WotC formed one, I would tell them in no uncertain terms where they could put their request. They did extremely well with 5E, and their tools in the past showed some promise, but at the end of the day these people are simply not reliable.

This kickstarter is by people that failed by WotC's standards.

2) Their wording... there is a massive usage of buzzwords and marketing hype without actually demonstrating, well, anything. This comes across as a scam.

3) Their product: I tried the 5e Alpha they released. To say it did not impress would be an understatement.

Ultimately, I do not trust these people, and they've given me plenty of reason not to trust them. And I feel sorry for the suckers that fell for it and have pledged.


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## Adammar (Jan 1, 2015)

They seem to be giving up on the kickstarter themselves. The last update was the 23rd. It's been weeks since they commented on the Paizo forums (unless it is someplace different from their initial pose). I don't think I ever saw anything on RPG.Net but nothing current. They should be hitting hard the last 10 days and there is barely more then a peep. It is also to late to do anything besides let the Kickstarter fail. If they close it down now it is sour grapes. They boxed themselves in and now they are stuck with it. (Unless they wait a couple of months for our attention span to wander...)


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## Hollow Man (Jan 1, 2015)

I think even they finally realized it wasn't going to happen, but I still think their backers deserve regular updates. They'll probably be at 75 or 80k when done, which while far short of their goal, sure seems like it would've been enough to do SOMETHING if they could keep it. 

Their comments indicate they're not going to give up completely, so we'll wait and see what they do. Personally, I'm still more interested in seeing what WotC does about electronic versions of the 5e rules, and hope they announce something soon.

-HM


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## Nikosandros (Jan 2, 2015)

Nergal Pendragon said:


> And I feel sorry for the suckers that fell for it and have pledged.



No reason to feel sorry. Especially since this KS won't fund and no one will spend a single cent.


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## Nergal Pendragon (Jan 2, 2015)

Nikosandros said:


> No reason to feel sorry. Especially since this KS won't fund and no one will spend a single cent.




I feel sorry because they invested with the hope that it would come about and they would get the program advertised. And, instead, they get nothing except a guilt trip and disappointment.


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## Morrus (Jan 2, 2015)

Nergal Pendragon said:


> I feel sorry because they invested with the hope that it would come about and they would get the program advertised. And, instead, they get nothing except a guilt trip and disappointment.




I think Kickstarter backers accept that a project might not fund and fully understand the nature of Kickstarter.

Whatever the case, that in no way makes them "suckers that fell for it", a statement which not only implies accusation of deliberate fraud on Trapdoor's side, but also sheer gullibility on the backer's side, managing to insult everyone involved in one fell swoop.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 2, 2015)

I agree with [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]. I choose not to back this project, but I don't think that Trapdoor was out to swindle anybody or that those who backed the project made a mistake. I actually hope that Trapdoor can re-think a bit their strategy and come up with another way of bringing this project to fruition. I've already written it, but the level of venom against this project has been really surprising.


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## Henry (Jan 2, 2015)

Yeah, if you wanna feel sorry for anyone, feel sorry for all those kickstarter backers past and present who've actually funded vapor products two and three years running because of vendors who actually did swindle their backers. In this instance, I don't think Trapdoor made their case successfully, full stop.


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## Nergal Pendragon (Jan 2, 2015)

My apologies. My wording was horrible.


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## pickin_grinnin (Jan 7, 2015)

In the end, they simply placed far too high a monetary goal on the project.  

I did a little back-and-forth with the developers (on another forum) and (based on my experience as a programmer) I really don't think they needed that much money to complete the project.  I think they were trying to make up for the money they didn't get from WotC, rather than setting a realistic goal for their Kickstarter project.  They didn't take a realistic look at the market.


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## billd91 (Jan 7, 2015)

pickin_grinnin said:


> In the end, they simply placed far too high a monetary goal on the project.
> 
> I did a little back-and-forth with the developers (on another forum) and (based on my experience as a programmer) I really don't think they needed that much money to complete the project.  I think they were trying to make up for the money they didn't get from WotC, rather than setting a realistic goal for their Kickstarter project.  They didn't take a realistic look at the market.




I'm not so sure of that. I've got experience in the software industry too and that amount doesn't seem beyond the pale to me. The fact of the matter is the last 10% of the project always seems to take a lot more than 10% of the budget whether it's time or money and that's very hard for most software companies to manage. Dates slip, projects fail, money runs out. That's why I usually *don't* back software Kickstarter projects.


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## pickin_grinnin (Jan 8, 2015)

It wouldn't seem out of bounds to me if we were talking about an MMO or a large scale video game of some kind.  For the type of product they were describing, though, I just can't see it costing that much, particularly since they had already done a lot of development work when they were teamed up with WotC.

I suspect they were shooting for that amount to cover past debts, try to recoup time and effort spent with WotC, etc., rather than pricing it according to the money they needed to get it off the ground.


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## Ghost Matter (Jan 23, 2015)

Your 425k$ question has been answered a long time ago. Whether or not the amount is appropriate is another question...

Apprently, they had no money coming in during development so many of their employees left as they were not getting paid. They likely were trying to recoup at least for some of it.


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## pickin_grinnin (Jan 23, 2015)

Ghost Matter said:


> Your 425k$ question has been answered a long time ago. Whether or not the amount is appropriate is another question...




An appropriate amount is the amount that the customers will accept.  They placed their goal many, many times higher than the market would support.  



> Apprently, they had no money coming in during development so many of their employees left as they were not getting paid. They likely were trying to recoup at least for some of it.




That may be a big part of why they wanted so much money, but wanting something and expecting Kickstarter backers to accept it are two very different things.


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