# Slaad Farming



## gfunk

My Sor 12 just picked up Summon Monster VI, so she can summon a Red Slaad.  Under the Slaad's description, it says that it can implant an egg into an opponent's body (DC 17 Fort, but no save if the recipient is unconscious or helpless).  So my question is this,

Purchase a bunch of cattle and get the Slaad to implant as many of them as possible.  One week later, *poof* an army of CN Blue Slaads!  Of course, my CN Sor would then have to figure out how to handle a horde of extraplanar creatures from Limbo with a 6 INT...     Ummm . . . dare I ask . . . suggestions?


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## Crothian

Unless you have some spells like Mass Charm, I'd stay away from this.  Those guys will overrun you in.  The best you can do is keep them happy and content, most CN people behave when they get what they want.

Edit: I'm going of the assumption this would work.  I have no idea by the rules if it would or not.  Since the monster is summoned...I just don't know.  I'm not up to date on summon monster rules.


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## Darkness

Hire a non-chaotic spellcaster with lots of chaos-bashing spells. Also, supply a fighter with a lawful weapon...


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## SpikeyFreak

Screw keeping them in line.

Take the one you summon, have it empregnate a couple of cows.

Charm the first one, have it impregnate a couple of cows.

Kill the second one.  Get XP.

Rinse and repeat.

--Twinker Spikey


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## graydoom

Lots of Magic Circles Against Chaos around each cow/slaad. Maybe build one giant one around the whole farm . Take out individual slaads as needed for missions. Continually enlarge circle and keep giving them more cows to implant eggs in.
As CN creatures, they are unlikely to follow you freely or consistently... the best bet is to just treat them well and hope you can somehow direct them to do occasional favors for you.
Really cool idea . Heck, if this worked, just one summoned Slaad that implanted a herd or two of cows could have the end result of the world being overrun by slaads. This could be a really cool plot hook!


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## Vaxalon

SpikeyFreak said:
			
		

> *Screw keeping them in line.
> 
> Take the one you summon, have it empregnate a couple of cows.
> 
> Charm the first one, have it impregnate a couple of cows.
> 
> Kill the second one.  Get XP.*




Please explain how these critters are an obstacle that has been overcome.

IMC if you create the obstacle, then you don't get XP for it.


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## gfunk

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Please explain how these critters are an obstacle that has been overcome.
> 
> IMC if you create the obstacle, then you don't get XP for it. *




Easy, you let them have the first punch

[added]

BTW, great idea graydoom.  I'll try to fix up a large Prot from Chaos effect if I can, that would at least keep them in one place.  Since my Sor has ungodly Cha (esp. after a double empowered Eagle's Splendor) I hope that I can use them as "mob enforcers."  I don't really want a min/max situation, I just think it's funny as hell.

<pseudo-Italian accent>
"You treat-a me with a-respect, or I-a send my blue-a slaad buddies to kick-a the crap out of you-a."


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## Gizzard

Arent the Slaad an intelligent race along the lines of the Drow or the Gith-whatevers?  If they are, I wouldnt want to see what happens to you when Slaadi ruling body finds out what you are doing.  

Red Slaad: "Massster, he sssummoned me to hisss plane and took my precious Egg to put in sssome foul sssmelling horned beasssst!"
Black Slaad: "Sssss!  Bring me the scrying ball and send for the Grey Assassin.  We teach this sorcerer what it means to cross the Slaad!"


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## SpikeyFreak

Gizzard said:
			
		

> *Arent the Slaad an intelligent race along the lines of the Drow or the Gith-whatevers?  If they are, I wouldnt want to see what happens to you when Slaadi ruling body finds out what you are doing.
> 
> Red Slaad: "Massster, he sssummoned me to hisss plane and took my precious Egg to put in sssome foul sssmelling horned beasssst!"
> Black Slaad: "Sssss!  Bring me the scrying ball and send for the Grey Assassin.  We teach this sorcerer what it means to cross the Slaad!" *



They're the outsider race associated with chaos.  I wouldn't play such a race as being quite so.....organized.

--Froggy Spikey


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## Darkness

SpikeyFreak said:
			
		

> *
> They're the outsider race associated with chaos.  I wouldn't play such a race as being quite so.....organized.
> 
> --Froggy Spikey *



Right. And the less powerful slaadi aren't all that intelligent, either (i.e., blue & red slaadi have a racial average Int of 6).


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## The Iron Mark

My you people have twisted minds...

I LIKE IT!!!  Is there anything else we could do this with? Or more ways to bend them to our will? I know! Take one as a Cohort, have it take Leadership and get it's own Cohort, and so on and so on! Probably won't work though, but it's an idea!


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## Crothian

Leadership with Slaad?  I'd suggest using the Tyrant feat from Evil.  It is like Leadership except, well, your evil, so you attract more people when you win battles and lose them when your enemy humiliates you.


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## Hypersmurf

> *Leadership with Slaad?  I'd suggest using the Tyrant feat from Evil.  It is like Leadership except, well, your evil, so you attract more people when you win battles and lose them when your enemy humiliates you. *




Would you consider being summoned by a rancher-mage and forced to impregnate cows humiliating?  

-Hyp.


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## Crothian

As long as I wasn't forced to cuddle afterwards.


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## The Iron Mark

Eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwww.


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## Dravin

ROFL


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## gfunk

Alrighty guys, keep the ideas flowing!  Since I will hit 12th level, my Sor *could* potentially take Leadership as a feat.  My Charisma would be 18 (natural), so that would give me a Leadership score of 16 [11th level cohort] (DMG, p. 45).  Looking at the examples of special cohorts, I'm not sure if a Blue Slaad would qualify (e.g. it may be too high for me, since an Eryines is listed 15th level equivalent).

I'm just wondering how I could manipulate the Slaads once they were imprisoned...  Perhaps I could offer them freedom to Limbo if they completed a task for me, or some other favor?

Ideas?


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## MythandLore

God this is a great thread, what wonderful ideas you guys have come up with.


			
				SpikeyFreak said:
			
		

> *
> They're the outsider race associated with chaos.  I wouldn't play such a race as being quite so.....organized.*





			
				Darkness said:
			
		

> Yep.
> *Right. And the less powerful slaadi aren't all that intelligent, either (i.e., blue & red slaadi have a racial average Int of 6). *



Yep.

It would be more along the lines of:
Red Slaad: "Aaahh... Ma-ma-mmasssterrr, dha guy sssummommoned me ann-an-and to hisss place an ah and stole Eggs!"
Black Slaad: "Sssss-shut up you retarded beast or i'll send for the Grey Painmaster to teach you a painful lessen in pain!"


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## The Iron Mark

Get to lvl 13 and get Geas or Mass Suggestion. When you lvl up later on you can get Mass Charm.


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## Crothian

The Iron Mark said:
			
		

> *Get to lvl 13 and get Geas or Mass Suggestion. When you lvl up later on you can get Mass Charm. *




That seems like the best bet.  Maybe you could store them in a building, have the localscome to destroy them and then safe them from the locals.  But with CN creatures, other then magically forcing them, I can't think of a way. 

Don't make to many, or they may just decide to kill you, and that would be bad.


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## The Iron Mark

Yeah, and then they would continue to make eggs and take over the world. Actually, that could be a good barganing tool.


Evil Wizard:If my demand of 1,000,000,000 gp is not met in 1 week, I shall set the Slaad on the world.

General:You wouldn't dare!

Evil Wizard:Watch me.*has his pet Slaad kill and eat the General*This is a warning to all of you!


Really cool plot twist.


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## Hypersmurf

> *Don't make to many, or they may just decide to kill you, and that would be bad.   *




And unless you're prepared to deal with Green Slaadi as well, don't implant any spellcasting cows.

-Hyp.


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## MythandLore

gfunk said:
			
		

> *Alrighty guys, keep the ideas flowing!  Since I will hit 12th level, my Sor *could* potentially take Leadership as a feat.  My Charisma would be 18 (natural), so that would give me a Leadership score of 16 [11th level cohort] (DMG, p. 45).  Looking at the examples of special cohorts, I'm not sure if a Blue Slaad would qualify (e.g. it may be too high for me, since an Eryines is listed 15th level equivalent).
> 
> I'm just wondering how I could manipulate the Slaads once they were imprisoned...  Perhaps I could offer them freedom to Limbo if they completed a task for me, or some other favor?
> 
> Ideas? *



Yeah, I'd think he'd be like a level 16 cohort.

I think charm monster is your best bet.


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## Crothian

The Iron Mark said:
			
		

> *Yeah, and then they would continue to make eggs and take over the world. Actually, that could be a good barganing tool.
> 
> 
> Evil Wizard:If my demand of 1,000,000,000 gp is not met in 1 week, I shall set the Slaad on the world.
> 
> General:You wouldn't dare!
> 
> Evil Wizard:Watch me.*has his pet Slaad kill and eat the General*This is a warning to all of you!
> 
> 
> Really cool plot twist.  *




Then General's army storms the Sorcerer and the Slaad, overwelming them and destroying the bodies totally.  

It could work, just be careful.  But, you still need control of the Slaad first.  Drug their food with poison (hopefully they aren't immune to poinson) that lowers wisdom before using enchanment type spells on them.


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## gfunk

Right now, my Sor is running an extraplanar institute in a large building in the FR town of Ashabenford.  I have a low level Sage in charge of research and a mid-level (9th) diviner who is a represenative of the mage's guild in Hillsfar to do a lot of the "dirty" work.

After we completed the Speaker in Dreams module, my PC made off with a ton of Alientist literature from the shop of insane sorcerers.  Afterwards, she starting taking levels in Alienist (now will be my 4th) and she's just about to hit "Mad Certainty."  If anything makes you "mad" with any "certainty" then slaad farming has got to be it.

Hmmm . . . come to think of it, do you think it makes a difference of the original Red Slaad progenitor is pseudonatural?  Uh oh...


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## The Iron Mark

As I said before, is there any other creature we could do this to? We need more ideas!


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## gfunk

Since our party faces a lot of evil spellcasters, I have a lot of fodder for Green Slaads too.  I mean what's the fun in the boring old you kill a wizard, loot his corpse, and dump his body in a ditch (tm) routine?  Maybe I should get him raised by some LE cleric then get a Red Slaad to implant his ass.  

In that case, I could have one Green Slaad ruling the roost.


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## The Iron Mark

Good idea. Remember though, that if an evil wizard hates good people, he won't let a good cleric raise him from the dead. Just knock him out early in the fight and have him be impregnated by a Slaad when he's unconcious(sp?).


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## Hypersmurf

> *As I said before, is there any other creature we could do this to? We need more ideas! *




Wights.

You need humanoids, not cows, but orcs breed like rabbits anyway 

An evil cleric is limited by Hit Dice how many Undead he can control.  But, a wight commands any spawn it produces.

So you can control an army of orc-wights through your one Master Wight...

-Hyp.


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## Hypersmurf

> *Maybe I should get him raised by some LE cleric then get a Red Slaad to implant his ass.
> 
> In that case, I could have one Green Slaad ruling the roost. *




Stick to cows.

Get a druid to Awaken one, give it a level in sorcerer.

It's no fun if they aren't cows.

-Hyp.


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## Crothian

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Stick to cows.
> 
> Get a druid to Awaken one, give it a level in sorcerer.
> 
> It's no fun if they aren't cows.
> 
> -Hyp. *




LOL, you're right, the cows make the joke.


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## Crothian

The Iron Mark said:
			
		

> *As I said before, is there any other creature we could do this to? We need more ideas! *




Shadows and Bodaks will do the same, but are less easy to control


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## MythandLore

Crothian said:
			
		

> *Shadows and Bodaks will do the same, but are less easy to control *



No kidding, talk about stepping into the damger zone.


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## The Iron Mark

I don't think that Slaad are considered animals, so they couldn't be Awakened. What druid would Awaken them anyway?


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## MythandLore

The Iron Mark said:
			
		

> *I don't think that Slaad are considered animals, so they couldn't be Awakened. What druid would Awaken them anyway? *



The cow.


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## gfunk

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Stick to cows.
> 
> Get a druid to Awaken one, give it a level in sorcerer.
> 
> It's no fun if they aren't cows.
> 
> -Hyp. *




But how the heck do I teach a cow, albeit an intelligent one, how to cast spells?


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## Hypersmurf

Bodaks don't remain under the control of a Master Bodak, either.

Farming the Incorporeal is just a Bad Idea 

Vampire Spawn is maybe doable 

-Hyp.


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## MythandLore

gfunk said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But how the heck do I teach a cow, albeit an intelligent one, how to cast spells? *



He doesn't have to be able to cast spells to be a sorcerer does he?


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## The Iron Mark

I get it now, about the Awakening.  Vampire/Wight Slaad maybe? hmmmmm.....


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## Hypersmurf

> *But how the heck do I teach a cow, albeit an intelligent one, how to cast spells? *




In a year, who knows what will happen?

Maybe the king will die.  Maybe I will die.  Maybe the cow will die.  And maybe - just maybe...

-Hyp.


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## MythandLore

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *Bodaks don't remain under the control of a Master Bodak, either.
> 
> Farming the Incorporeal is just a Bad Idea
> 
> Vampire Spawn is maybe doable
> 
> -Hyp. *



Why not just have a regular Vampire as the character then?


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## Hypersmurf

> *Why not just have a regular Vampire as the character then? *




Rrrrr.

Never happen in my campaign.

-Hyp.


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## Crothian

MythandLore said:
			
		

> *
> Why not just have a regular Vampire as the character then? *




What fun would that be?  No difficulty trying to teach Awakened Cows spells, no Slaad farming.  

Just be a Vampire?  It just sounds....weird.


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## The Iron Mark

No one looks at my posts...  LOOK AT IT! j/k  But seriously, we could sick a wight or vampire on them and see what happens. Damn, keep thinking of stuff. You would need a cleric to make the vampire/wight, and then you could cast Control Undead. Problem solved.


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## Crothian

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Rrrrr.
> 
> Never happen in my campaign.
> 
> -Hyp. *




Why not?  To powerful a template?  Bring back bad memories of a LARP accident?  

Actually, there's a really cool Vampire Prestige Class in a Dragon that I'll never be able to try out."


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## Hypersmurf

> *Why not?  To powerful a template?  Bring back bad memories of a LARP accident?*




Just seen far too many good-aligned, misunderstood, immune-to-sunlight vampire PCs.

[hisses]

-Hyp.


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## gfunk

One problem with Awakening a cow is it's lack of Charisma.  It gets 3d6 Int, but only +1d3 Cha.  Considering most large mammals have a Cha of 6, it couldn't even cast 0-level spells.  *If* I roll well for Int, I might consider making it a Wizzie instead.  Here's a question, if I polymorphed the evil Wizzie into a cow first, then got a Slaad to impregnate it, would it become a Green Slaad?  I'm inclined to think so...


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## The Iron Mark

So would I... Oh, and what do you think of my idea of farming Vampric/Wight Slaads?


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## Crothian

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Just seen far too many good-aligned, misunderstood, immune-to-sunlight vampire PCs.
> 
> [hisses]
> 
> -Hyp. *




Ugg...What's the point of playing a Vampire then?  I'm very sorry for you, I had no idea you had it that bad.  Maybe we should form a support group, you know, a 12 step program.


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## Crothian

The Iron Mark said:
			
		

> *So would I... Oh, and what do you think of my idea of farming Vampric/Wight Slaads? *




While in theory, an intersting idea.  Just think what happens if you lose control of them.  Not a pretty sight.


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## gfunk

The Iron Mark said:
			
		

> *So would I... Oh, and what do you think of my idea of farming Vampric/Wight Slaads? *




I think it's a great idea, but unfortunately Spawn can only be created from Humanoids (Wights) or Humanoids/Monstrous Humanoids (Vampires).  Otherwise, you get the brownie for creative thinking!


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## Hypersmurf

> *One problem with Awakening a cow is it's lack of Charisma.  It gets 3d6 Int, but only +1d3 Cha.  Considering most large mammals have a Cha of 6, it couldn't even cast 0-level spells.*




Still qualifies as an arcane spellcaster, though - it can use any wand on the sorcerer list.

*



			*If* I roll well for Int, I might consider making it a Wizzie instead.  Here's a question, if I polymorphed the evil Wizzie into a cow first, then got a Slaad to impregnate it, would it become a Green Slaad?  I'm inclined to think so...
		
Click to expand...


*
Heh.  The poor cow - hooves aren't really designed for turning pages in a spellbook.

Why not find a Druid/Wizard, _Dominate_ him, and get him to Wildshape into a cow?

-Hyp.


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## MythandLore

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Just seen far too many good-aligned, misunderstood, immune-to-sunlight vampire PCs.
> 
> [hisses]
> 
> -Hyp. *



That just sounds like a goth kid.
Try making a non-good-aligned, bloodsucking, un-immune-to-sunlight vampire PC.



			
				gfunk said:
			
		

> *1) One problem with Awakening a cow is it's lack of Charisma.  It gets 3d6 Int, but only +1d3 Cha.  Considering most large mammals have a Cha of 6, it couldn't even cast 0-level spells.  *If* I roll well for Int, I might consider making it a Wizzie instead.
> 
> 2)Here's a question, if I polymorphed the evil Wizzie into a cow first, then got a Slaad to impregnate it, would it become a Green Slaad?  I'm inclined to think so... *



1) Even if he had 1 cha he can still be a sor, just a crappy one.
2) Yes.


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## The Iron Mark

Just looked at it, seems like you would want to do some selective implanting. I wonder if there's something you could do to help select what Chaotic Variations they get...


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## gfunk

Well, i suppose the real questions is of Slaadi genetics?  Do they follow Mendellian or non-Mendellian genetics?  Perhaps I can isolate the Slaad with the "bigger brain" (Int +4) and get it, and it alone, to further impregnate cows.  I mean I would like my mob enforcers to have a little bit of brain power and Int 10 looks like a good amount.

It says, in the Manual of the Planes that Slaadi are hermaphrodites.  So, technically speaking, they should pass on all their genes with 100% fidelity right?  Woo hoo!  Come to my Slaad farm, where we breed only the finest in Toril!


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## The Iron Mark

Or even better, get a Slaad that has multiple Variations from rolling 98-100 a lot.


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## Crothian

gfunk said:
			
		

> *Well, i suppose the real questions is of Slaadi genetics?  Do they follow Mendellian or non-Mendellian genetics?  Perhaps I can isolate the Slaad with the "bigger brain" (Int +4) and get it, and it alone, to further impregnate cows.  I mean I would like my mob enforcers to have a little bit of brain power and Int 10 looks like a good amount.
> 
> It says, in the Manual of the Planes that Slaadi are hermaphrodites.  So, technically speaking, they should pass on all their genes with 100% fidelity right?  Woo hoo!  Come to my Slaad farm, where we breed only the finest in Toril! *




The sad ting is when I relate this story to my friends on gaming night, they will all think I'm making it up.


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## The Iron Mark

Well if you could get them to be Ghosts, that'd be even better. Of course, they'd be a bitch to control. Or instead of Ghost Slaads, you could cross-breed them(magically of course) with something else. There's no special Slaad for implanting/diseasing clerics or druids. Oh well. This is my 3rd edit I think now. Anyway, the Reference Document doesn't mention what a Slaad looks like. Could someone decribe one to me? ANOTHER EDIT. If you kept real good care of them, maybe you could advance their HD because of being carefully nurtured(not sure if nurtured is the best word in this case, but, oh well). Too bad you can't get Gray or Death Slaadi. Oh well.


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## Darkness

I have a solution for the spellcasting cow: Summon a tanar'ri, get it to impregnate a cow - voila, instant half-fiend cow!  Then, teach it one level in Sorcerer. That oughta do it... 

BTW, what Con scores do regular cows have, anyway? 'coz implanting won't work on creatures with a Con <11 (since they won't survive the gestation period - or rather, the loss of 10 points of Con).


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## MythandLore

Darkness said:
			
		

> *I have a solution for the spellcasting cow: Summon a tanar'ri, get it to impregnate a cow - voila, instant half-fiend cow!  Then, teach it one level in Sorcerer. That oughta do it...
> 
> BTW, what Con scores do regular cows have, anyway? 'coz implanting won't work on creatures with a Con <11 (since they won't survive the gestation period - or rather, the loss of 10 points of Con). *



We were just talkiong about this yesterday in the CCforum.
There is no stats for cows.


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## gfunk

Well, the closest animal in the MM might be the Bison and it has a 16 Con.  So I have to imagine that bovines in general are pretty hardy suckers.


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## The Iron Mark

Doesn't matter about the Con, just cast Extended Empowered Endurances on them Half-Fiend Cows. Would the Slaad get the Half-Fiend template too? Then you could have a Half-Fiend Ghost Slaad or some other crazy mixture. I wonder if a powerful wizard could subvert a celestial to do it. Then mix that with the tanar'ri, then take that and get it implanted/diseased. Then kill it off and have it as a ghost or magically mix with some other creature.


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## Crothian

gfunk said:
			
		

> *Well, the closest animal in the MM might be the Bison and it has a 16 Con.  So I have to imagine that bovines in general are pretty hardy suckers. *




Cows are tough creatures.  They can eat for like 12 hours straight.  You need a 12+ con to do that.


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## Darkness

Crothian said:
			
		

> *... eat for like 12 hours straight.  You need a 12+ con to do that.    *



You are speaking from personal experience, yes?


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## Gromm

Crothian said:
			
		

> *Unless you have some spells like Mass Charm, I'd stay away from this.  Those guys will overrun you in.  The best you can do is keep them happy and content, most CN people behave when they get what they want.
> 
> *




Only one problem.. .they are Chaos incarnate, you couldn't satisfy them. They are chaotic like demons are evil.  You might think you have them in control for a while until one gets bored and decides to kill you at random.  Not to mention they're bound to escape, which isn't likely to endear you to the locals.

A cool idea for an adventure though. Crazy sorceror summons some "pets" and looses control and the PCs have to clean it up.


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## Darkness

Gromm said:
			
		

> * You might think you have them in control for a while until one gets bored and decides to kill you at random. *



...or they might do to you what you had them do to the cows...


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## Crothian

Darkness said:
			
		

> *You are speaking from personal experience, yes?  *




I live in the cow belt of America.  I'm not on a farm, thank goodness.  But I've been around them and my Dad grew up on one.  So, ya, personal experince.


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## Crothian

Gromm said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Only one problem.. .they are Chaos incarnate, you couldn't satisfy them. They are chaotic like demons are evil.  You might think you have them in control for a while until one gets bored and decides to kill you at random.  Not to mention they're bound to escape, which isn't likely to endear you to the locals.
> 
> A cool idea for an adventure though. Crazy sorceror summons some "pets" and looses control and the PCs have to clean it up. *




Yo-Yo's .  Everyone loves Yo-Yo's.


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## Darkness

Crothian said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I live in the cow belt of America.  I'm not on a farm, thank goodness.  But I've been around them and my Dad grew up on one.  So, ya, personal experince. *



Heh. That wasn't what I meant; I was joking around, mainly.


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## Crothian

Darkness said:
			
		

> *Heh. That wasn't what I meant; I was joking around, mainly.  *




i get it, you're funny.  Sorry, it's like 1:40 AM over here and the brain stopped working.......yesterday.


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## Gizzard

> Anyway, the Reference Document doesn't mention what a Slaad looks like. Could someone decribe one to me?




They used to be like big, angry humanoid frogs.  Maybe you've seen those garden ornaments with happy frogs playing musical instruments or riding unicycles?  They're a lot like that, except burlier and more vicious.  No unicycles.  (Well, perhaps unicycles, but PCs generally wouldnt know since they seldom get to see the tender side of the Slaad race.)


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## Gromm

Gizzard said:
			
		

> *
> 
> They used to be like big, angry humanoid frogs.  Maybe you've seen those garden ornaments with happy frogs playing musical instruments or riding unicycles?  They're a lot like that, except burlier and more vicious.  No unicycles.  (Well, perhaps unicycles, but PCs generally wouldnt know since they seldom get to see the tender side of the Slaad race.) *




And sharp pointy teeth! *sticks fingers in front of his mouth*


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## Caliban

Um, you guys do know that this wouldn't really work, right? 

When the duration of the _Summon Monster_ spell is up, the slaad returns to it's home plane.  All of the slaad, including any eggs it had implanted.   Same goes for any blood or body parts.


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## Number47

Caliban, are you saying that when a summoned creature goes bye-bye, it's _poison_ is removed from affected creatures? What about disease?


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## Caliban

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Caliban, are you saying that when a summoned creature goes bye-bye, it's poison is removed from affected creatures? What about disease? *




Disease would be removed, and the poison too.  Although in the case of poison it won't restore any poison damage done before the creature returned home.


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## gfunk

Caliban, could you please give the source for this?  Under the Summoning spell description in the PHB, p. 157 it says that ongoing spells end.  But it doesn't really mention things like disease and poison.


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## Darkness

Here's a picture of three slaad types. It's only B&W, though, so you'll have to pretend that the colors are there...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm_gallery/Slaad.jpg

[edit]I changed the image to a url in order to not slow down the thread. [/edit]


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## Caliban

gfunk said:
			
		

> *Caliban, could you please give the source for this?  Under the Summoning spell description in the PHB, p. 157 it says that ongoing spells end.  But it doesn't really mention things like disease and poison. *




Mainly from the PHB.  The summoned creature leaves at the end of it's duration.  

To me, that would seem to include every part of the summoned creature.   Disease and poison would have to be part of the creature, or they wouldn't be summoned along with it.


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## Xarlen

Yes, but what about everything that has left the critter's person? 

If a fiendish dire wolf urinates on a wall, does the urine poof, when it's gone? 

If a Celestial drops it's weapon, in the course of the battle, does it go with it? It's not part of the celestial. Why, it could summon the celestial at any point and time (The celestial could be eating, and thus, food is brought with it, but it's not a part of the celestial, ne?).


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## Caliban

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *Yes, but what about everything that has left the critter's person?
> 
> If a fiendish dire wolf urinates on a wall, does the urine poof, when it's gone?
> 
> If a Celestial drops it's weapon, in the course of the battle, does it go with it? It's not part of the celestial. Why, it could summon the celestial at any point and time (The celestial could be eating, and thus, food is brought with it, but it's not a part of the celestial, ne?). *




Those were all part of the creature when it was summoned, they would all leave with the creature when it leaves.


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## gfunk

Caliban said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Those were all part of the creature when it was summoned, they would all leave with the creature when it leaves. *




Caliban, I understand what you are saying, but I have to respectfully disagree.  For certain things such as armor and weapons, I agree that they would go back with the summoned monster.  For instance, no summoning an Astral Deva, instructing him to fork over his magical mace and then selling it for a profit. 

However for poisons and disease I can't really agree.  I mean what's the point of summoning a fiendish viper if your enemies won't be around to take the secondary poison damage?


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## Caliban

gfunk said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Caliban, I understand what you are saying, but I have to respectfully disagree.  For certain things such as armor and weapons, I agree that they would go back with the summoned monster.  For instance, no summoning an Astral Deva, instructing him to fork over his magical mace and then selling it for a profit.
> 
> However for poisons and disease I can't really agree.  I mean what's the point of summoning a fiendish viper if your enemies won't be around to take the secondary poison damage? *




Poison and Disease may be an exception, I just don't see anything that indicates that they would be.  

How often do your enemies live long enough to worry about the secondary poison damage anyway?


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## CRGreathouse

Caliban's right.  Check out PH page 157 - if you still haven't learned to trust him.  (I haven't. )


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## Darkness

Caliban said:
			
		

> *How often do your enemies live long enough to worry about the secondary poison damage anyway? *



They could, for example, fly away after being wounded. And if the party has no way to pursue them, that secondary poison damage might be important.

Also, sometimes a PC is poisoned by a summoned critter.


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## Crothian

Caliban said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Poison and Disease may be an exception, I just don't see anything that indicates that they would be.
> 
> How often do your enemies live long enough to worry about the secondary poison damage anyway? *




About one month ago we were fighting a Dragon and the Druid used Poison on it.  THe Dragon made the first saving throw and five rounds later flew away (the DM was hoping to make it a reocurring villian dragon) as it flew the Druid reminded the DM that the dragon needed to make another saving throw which it failed.  The Dragon fell out of the sky as it sufferd 8 points of con damage.  We cheered!!


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## (Psi)SeveredHead

There are a number of calling spells you can use to keep the slaad and their eggs. I believe one is available at 6th-level. Or wait some more levels and use gate.


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## Wolfspider

> About one month ago we were fighting a Dragon and the Druid used Poison on it. THe Dragon made the first saving throw and five rounds later flew away (the DM was hoping to make it a reocurring villian dragon) as it flew the Druid reminded the DM that the dragon needed to make another saving throw which it failed. The Dragon fell out of the sky as it sufferd 8 points of con damage. We cheered!!




Sorry, I just feel obligated to comment on this.   Why would the dragon fall out of the sky?  Even the smallest dragon would not be killed by losing just eight points of Constitution.  I could imagine if it had lost a lot of Strength being unable to remain in flight, but Constitution...?


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## Hypersmurf

> *There are a number of calling spells you can use to keep the slaad and their eggs. I believe one is available at 6th-level. Or wait some more levels and use gate. *




_Lesser Planar Binding_, Wiz/Sor 5th.

Up to 8HD - Reds are 7, Blues are 8.

-Hyp.


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## Hypersmurf

> * Sorry, I just feel obligated to comment on this.   Why would the dragon fall out of the sky?  Even the smallest dragon would not be killed by losing just eight points of Constitution.  I could imagine if it had lost a lot of Strength being unable to remain in flight, but Constitution...? *




Because losing 8 points of Con also loses you 4 hit points per hit die?

If we take the example of a Young Adult Blue, that's 18 hit dice - 72 hit points for failing that save.  If it was fleeing 'cos it was low on hit points, there's a fair chance it was down below 70!

-Hyp.


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## Xarlen

The only Hps it would've taken are those bestowed by Con hitpoints, right?


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## Hypersmurf

> *The only Hps it would've taken are those bestowed by Con hitpoints, right? *




Well, your current hit points are always your total rolled points per die, plus your Con bonus x Hit Dice, less any damage sustained.

The example I'm using is a Young Adult Blue Dragon.  19 Con, 18 hit dice, 189 hit points average.

That's a Con bonus of +4 : 4 points per hit die.  So it's hit points could be considered 117, + 72 bonus points.

If it sustains two points of Con damage, its bonus drops to 3 points per die.  Its hit point total is now 117 + 54, or 171.

If its Con drops to 6, then its Con bonus is -2.  Its hit point total is now 117 - 36, or 81.

Any damage sustained is subtracted from that.  So if the dragon has taken 100 hit points of damage, and then gets its Con drained to 6, then its current hit points are 81 - 100, or negative 19.  Dead, in other words.

The potential problem for DMs to keep track of, if they can be bothered, is that no hit die can be worth less than 1 hit point.

So with a Con modifier of -4 (say a 2 Constitution), a roll of 6 is worth 2, a roll of 5 is worth 1, and a roll of one through 4 is also worth 1.  But figuring out what the dragon rolled for each d12 can be a headache 

-Hyp.


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## Wolfspider

Ahh, yes.  Hit points.  Hadn't thought of that.   In defense of my overzealousness, the way I read the description was that the dragon lost 8 points of constitution and fell out of the sky directly 
because of that loss ("The Dragon fell out of the sky as it sufferd 8 points of con damage."), not because it was dead.  

Carry on....


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## Vaxalon

Caliban said:
			
		

> *Poison and Disease may be an exception, I just don't see anything that indicates that they would be.
> 
> How often do your enemies live long enough to worry about the secondary poison damage anyway? *




I don't know whether it's a house rule or a correct interpretation of the existing rule, but in my game, the poison hangs around long enough to cause secondary damage.


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## green slime

I would have had the poison (and disease) hang around as well...

But Caliban does have a legitimate point. I'll have to ponder this. In a team of mostly good PCs, this really affects them more than it does the bad guys. 

BTW, great thread: Slaad farming! You guys are all mad I tell you!


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## Hand of Vecna

Well, if you wanted to be really anal about it, you could rule that any summoned critter that normally has a Disease attack _doesn't_ have the attack form when summoned, since the spell only summons the critter, _not_ the thousands of bacteria/virii that cohabitate it's body...


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## HeavyG

Gromm said:
			
		

> *A cool idea for an adventure though. Crazy sorceror summons some "pets" and looses control and the PCs have to clean it up. *




Yeah, kind of a Island of Doctor Moreau/Alien crossover.


*Cue movie preview announcer voice*

A power-mad sorceror living alone on a remote island has gone too far.  Summoning a slaad to impregnate cows and create an unbeatable army of mad cow slaadi n1njaz, the sorcerer was killed when his uncontrollable minions turned on him.

A few weeks later, in a terrible storm, a group of adventurers is shipwrecked and lands on ...


Mad Cow Island


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## Caliban

HeavyG said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yeah, kind of a Island of Doctor Moreau/Alien crossover.
> 
> 
> *Cue movie preview announcer voice*
> 
> A power-mad sorceror living alone on a remote island has gone too far.  Summoning a slaad to impregnate cows and create an unbeatable army of mad cow slaadi n1njaz, the sorcerer was killed when his uncontrollable minions turned on him.
> 
> A few weeks later, in a terrible storm, a group of adventurers is shipwrecked and lands on ...
> 
> 
> Mad Cow Island *




Hmmm... I may have just found the first storyline for a Dragonstar campaign I promised to run (because it does look like it would work with Calling a Slaad)...


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## Caliban

green slime said:
			
		

> *I would have had the poison (and disease) hang around as well...
> 
> But Caliban does have a legitimate point. I'll have to ponder this. In a team of mostly good PCs, this really affects them more than it does the bad guys.
> 
> BTW, great thread: Slaad farming! You guys are all mad I tell you! *




It may have been the intent that poison and disease attacks work normally for summoned creatures, and they just didn't think to spell it out.   Or they may not have intended them to work normally, and didn't think to spell it out.   

I really don't get a strong impression one way or the other from reading the information on Summoning in the PHB, other than it stating that the creature leaves when it dies or the spell ends, and I believe that means anything the creature brought with it leaves.


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## Darkness

BTW, here's a new take on the slaad farming idea: Shifter = instant army.


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## gamecat

Screw magic! Build them a starbucks. Caffiene addiction is far more powerful than any charm monster!


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## Clay_More

Im not sure that poison and disease effects might dissappear with the summoned creature. Especially disease wouldn't dissappear. If it is a bacteriological disease, the disease would most propbably have infected the person and created new bacteria. The originial bacteria might vanish, but the created bacteria would remain. Otherwise, it would mean that all effects created by summon monsters would have to dissappear for it to be logical, including damage.
If it is true though, that everything from a summoned monster dissappears, it would be a perfect way of creating a medieval contraceptive. Imagine this. A wizard does not want to make his wife pregnant. So, he uses gate to transport himself to another plane, perhaps the astral or etheral plane where it's relatively safe. He has given his wife a special monster summoning spell that only summons wizards. With any luck, he will be the one arriving when she uses the spell. So, they can, ahem, do their thing. When the spell ends, he is instantly transported back to his place of origin, the astral or etheral or whatever plane. This would include any part of his body and it's liquids that he has left behind, such as the thing a male excrets during the "ahem" thing I mentioned earlier. It would thus be impossible for her to become impregnated by him, thus offering him a perfect, if not a little complicated, contraceptive. 
If any liquids excreted by the summoned monster did not vanish, you could make a regular poison farm, sucking out the poison of summon dire vipers. Some monsters have other parts of their bodies that are used to create magic items or as spell components. These could be harvested as well. 
For us, it is a lucky thing that cows are not outsiders. That would mean that if we used Summon Cow to get ourselves some beef, after the spell ended, we would suddenly become extremely hungry as all food left our stomachs. 
Anyways, I think the idea of the Slaad Farming is excellent. You could use bunny rabbits instead they, it would be possible for you to have more of them on the same patch of land than cows. I dont know if Slaad can impregnate insects, but the insect would most propably be crushed in the attemp anyway.


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## IceBear

Wow, talk about resurrecting an old thread 

IceBear


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## Clay_More

So what, it was a good thread


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## IceBear

I was just surprised it was still around 

IceBear


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## officeronin

Why do you need to control them -- you're CN!  Purchase a farm in enemy territory, pose as a farmer for a few weeks, and then leave, releasing your Slaad to do as they like!

Instead of cows, I'd consider chickens -- cheaper, and has the value of an endless stream of "Crossing the Road" jokes.

OfficeRonin


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## aliensex

Unfortunately the chickens don't have the constitution to survive the entire gestation period like a cow would.  Plus, just thinking of chickens exploding from a developing fetus... great, now I'm ill


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## Unseelie

MythandLore said:
			
		

> *
> He doesn't have to be able to cast spells to be a sorcerer does he? *




Besides, we're talking a Sorcerer level... it would need to be one attractive cow.

Druid: "That's your Cow?"
Farmer: "Yes"
Druid: "And that's your wife?"
Farmer: "Yes"
Druid: "I think I'll be visiting more often from now on."


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## gfunk

My thread . . . my old thread . . .

It's alive!

It's alive!


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## Unseelie

Okay, now I have to see if I can somehow script this using the _Neverwinter Nights_ Aurora toolset...

*Sim Slaad Farm*


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## Al'Kelhar

Caliban is correct.  Read p52 of the D&D FAQ.

Everything that a creature summoned by Summon Monster or equivalent spell brings with them disappears at the end of the spell's duration - equipment, body fluids (incl. poison), eggs, everything.  No army of slaads.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar


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## Zhure

Yah, so use Chaos Beasts. The Corporeal Instability they cause transforms the target into another Chaos Beast, leaving nothing behind, like semen, eggs or poison.


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## Xarlen

Clay_More said:
			
		

> *
> If it is true though, that everything from a summoned monster dissappears, it would be a perfect way of creating a medieval contraceptive.  *




Seeing as summoning spells are only 1 round per level...

Talk about Quickdraw.


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## Zhure

Extend Feat


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## KingCroMag

This might work. In the poly other errata (ToB) it states you cannot poly into a constuct, outsider what have you unless you are of that type. Slaad are outsiders couldn't you upgrade them? Astral Deva slaad o' death? 
-KCM


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## fnork de sporg

Is there any way to magically extend the summoning to the several days needed for the slaad eggs to hatch? Or perhaps to make the eggs mature extremely fast?


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## Hashmalum

Slaad farming? What a... bizarre... idea. Wouldn't work in my campaign, though, since I created a new type of slaad, the brown slaad, that results from implantation/infection of animals or immature creatures. Stunted, retarded little things that aren't good for much (and can't reproduce), but their smallness and weakness make them the only slaads suitable as Improved Familiars (I went on a bit of a familiar-monster-creating kick a while back).

There's also the fact that while slaad aren't very organized, and probably don't have much racial loyalty, sooner or later some slaad would probably come and free them if for no other reason than to see the glorious chaos that would result from hordes of its fellows being loosed on the material plane.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead

I assume the "Summon Husband" spell would have a longer duration, since it only summons a specific creature.


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## Vaxalon

Unfortunately, the spell "Summon Husband" has a 50% failure chance.  All you get is a faint voice saying, "Did you say something?  I can't hear you..."


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## KingCroMag

Relics and rituals 2 has a summon x spell. It allows for a much longer duration, but only summons a specific creature.
-KCM


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## Kid Charlemagne

Caliban said:
			
		

> *Um, you guys do know that this wouldn't really work, right?
> 
> When the duration of the Summon Monster spell is up, the slaad returns to it's home plane.  All of the slaad, including any eggs it had implanted.   Same goes for any blood or body parts. *




So use _Lesser Planar Binding_ instead...  We're talking about a 12th level sorceror so it's well within his abilities...


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## fnork de sporg

*Lesser Planar Binding*? Ah yes, here on page 221 of my first printing PHB. A fine spell, exactly what we need. Much more complicated to keep the creature contained, as our theoretical GM would probably want, but the duration of the creature's stay is simply however long you can keep it contained.  Now this is the perfect Slaad-Rancher spell.


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