# BATTLESTAR GALACTICA: Season 2A Part 10; NSCR/9.23.2005. Mid-Season Ending



## Truth Seeker (Sep 23, 2005)

"*Pegasus*" Episode #210.

When the Galactica's draedus picks up an incoming ship, a big incoming ship, the crew immediately prepares for a jump, assuming it's the Cylons. But the signal turns out to not be Cylon at all, but rather the Battlestar Pegasus, previously believed destroyed in the Holocaust along with the rest of the fleet. Commanded by Admiral Cain, the Pegasus' surprise arrival, indeed, it's very existence, gives the people of the Galactica fleet a reason to rejoice. But when Cain assumes military control over the fleet, and the methodology of the Pegasus crew proves questionable, Commander Adama must decide whether this new arrival is actually friend or foe.

*Cast*: Edward James Olmos, Mary McDonnell, Katee Sackhoff, Jamie Bamber, James Callis, Tricia Helfer, Grace Park.

*Remember, this is will be two minute longer than the standard show's run, set your recorders accordinaly.*

There will be no hype, no commentary, no recalling of what lead up to what. You don't need it, don't need to hear it, but you are tasting it. And* you are * feeling it.

Today's Quotes: _Roslin speaking to Chief Tyrol_--Oh, you're too much modest. After what we been through ,it would be very easy, to give up, to lose hope.  But not here. Not today. This is more than a ship, Chief. This is a act of faith. It is proof that despite all we've lost, we keep trying. And we wlll get through this, of all us, together. I promise.

_Adama to Roslin_: I took your advice, met on common ground. _Roslin_-What was that?_ Adama_-We both wanted to live.

*Handing out sedative pills for those who will have withdrawn pains.*

p.s. There will be a major shocker as well...hehehe.


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## Viking Bastard (Sep 23, 2005)

Right. That means BG orgy for me over the weekend. I stopped watching the season 
after episode 2. I decided I wanted rather to watch it in bulk.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 23, 2005)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> Right. That means BG orgy for me over the weekend. I stopped watching the season
> after episode 2. I decided I wanted rather to watch it in bulk.




*Placing a crash cart unit, right next to VB*


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## LrdApoc (Sep 23, 2005)

After seeing this episode I can say any fears and complaints I had about the initial evolution of the characters has faded away.

I'm not going to spoil for anyone but the ending definately left me cursing that January is so far away.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 23, 2005)

LrdApoc said:
			
		

> After seeing this episode I can say any fears and complaints I had about the initial evolution of the characters has faded away.
> 
> I'm not going to spoil for anyone but the ending definately left me cursing that January is so far away.




*Train Viper Guns on LrdApoc*


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## LrdApoc (Sep 23, 2005)

There is some small joy at being a newspaper critic.. I get to see some of my favorite shows a little early...

Fans won't be disappointed.. and the best news- the teaser doesn't ruin the show.

Oh My God.. I can't believe they did that...

Okay.. not wanting to spoil anything for anyone before Friday but let me say for the record that any trepidation I had about this show is gone. There is no doubt that this is the best Sci-Fi series I have ever seen and the storytelling surpasses anything I expected based on the weekness of the early episodes and some problems with the Miniseries.

I early on talked about the lack of hope, family and cohesion in the characters and I came to realize that by starting dark and 'human' the story had so much more room to grow. After a Season and a half I have to say that growth has definitely happened. The detached, cold Cmdr. Adama is no more, the wimpy Apollo is also gone - Ron Moore and his fellow producers and writers are producing what may be the most impressive continuing story ever filmed.

I had questions about how well they could sustain the premise but if they continue on the path they have set here there is no question that Galactica has a great future... The finale ends as predicted on a cliffhanger. The frustration, anger and excitement I felt at that last scene left me screaming that I have to wait for January to see the resolution and aftereffects. SG-1 and Atlantis, while good finales did not leave me with that feeling. Even last years finale wasn't this tightly scripted and exciting. If they can continue with this level of quality you'll find me a Galactica apostle.


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## Ghostwind (Sep 23, 2005)

Hmmm, gues I need to decide whether I want to keeping watching the new Dr. Who or switch over to BG on my downloads from my friend since I don't get either here.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 23, 2005)

_LrdApoc=If they can continue with this level of quality you'll find me a Galactica apostle._

*Standing waist deep with waiting arms, to baptise the newest member*

Yes...yes, I hear ya. AMEN.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 23, 2005)

Just like you, the premise of the show, well, from the mini-series. I heard mixed-reviews.

There was apprehesion, on the major scale.

Then much later, I saw the mini...

My mind flipped.

Then the TV series came about. The impression of the mini-series sat hard in my mind, the outline of the story, the characters, the way it was illustrated. Hit certain points with me.

First Impressions are important...especially, when it comes to sci-fi stuff. As with Firefly, to my ever-loving regret...that show had the stuff, of telling the story. But I didn't watch it, cause maybe, I was being picky, again I don't really know. And maybe I won't either. 

Now, with BSG, the terms of military, hopelessness, genocide, war, struggles, are premises quite familiar with me. These outlines I can identify with. I have warned people in the past, that this show will push buttons...and as proof...got a closed thread  .

I began the see the picture early on, that this show, will be pushing the limits of human morality, and lord it has.

I may have suggested, but if didn't that this show is a great DM tool, on how to tell a story.

Right now...that premise has not changed.

People wondered on where things were going, question the motives of characters, didn't like certain actors, blah, blah...you get it. 

As LrdApoch has said, it will leave you vexed, upset, screaming on the bloody tease semi-ending, that hangs in suspension, until January.

I will be making sure, that I have my mini-towel, for the tears, on the side.

To anyone, who has detracters about this series, yes, it may not be your cup of tea, was the same way I felt about Firely (loving it now), but as a viewer and reader of all things...science fiction.

Don't deny yourself the opportunity, to enjoy someone else's interpertation of a story, cause...there are elements within, you might miss.

And blast it, I made a commentary...  




			
				LrdApoc said:
			
		

> There is some small joy at being a newspaper critic.. I get to see some of my favorite shows a little early...
> 
> Fans won't be disappointed.. and the best news- the teaser doesn't ruin the show.
> 
> ...


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## Branding Opportunity (Sep 24, 2005)

Ooooh, pins and needles, pins and needles!!!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 24, 2005)

Quick comment just from the opening...

The survivor tally just jumped up by a little over a thousand people. First time I've really seen that thing change noticably.


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## Dagger75 (Sep 24, 2005)

Well that is an interesting interogation technique.


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## DonTadow (Sep 24, 2005)

spoilers--- Awesome ep.  One of the first eps I've felt genuine compassion for the cylons and hatred for some of the human survivors.  Don't care how bad the enemy is you never result to that.  

Something tells me that this is the opening of one of the best story arcs in sci fi


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## Darthjaye (Sep 24, 2005)

Good Lord was that awesome!!!!   Damn them for making me wait 3 months to see the result.    That was the best and now I'm gonna be like a junkie in a cold sweat in about a month.   Seeing that ending in my head over and over..........wondering, waiting.........


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 24, 2005)

That was fracking brilliant.

Forget Lucas. Forget Whedon. Ron Moore is my master now.


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## Evil Ujio (Sep 24, 2005)

Excellent episode... man I can't wait for January.


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## Darthjaye (Sep 24, 2005)

Note to self:  Invent time machine.  Go into future so I don't have to endure this hiatus.  Build time may take minimum of 3 months and it may only work the one time.  Hmmm, good point, I'll make sure I set the machine to January 2006 so no one will want to steal it from me and change the settings.  Wouldn't want to waste the effort.   Brilliant!!!


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## ecliptic (Sep 24, 2005)

January is too far away.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

*Hey Roger...ya see, you got them hooked*

-Yeah...it sure does look it-


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> That was fracking brilliant.
> 
> Forget Lucas. Forget Whedon. Ron Moore is my master now.




NOOOOOOOO!!! he has joined the way of the Cylons!!!!

By your command!


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

Darthjaye said:
			
		

> Good Lord was that awesome!!!!   Damn them for making me wait 3 months to see the result.    That was the best and now I'm gonna be like a junkie in a cold sweat in about a month.   Seeing that ending in my head over and over..........wondering, waiting.........



Watch it Monday again...11:00 p.m. EST.


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## Jamdin (Sep 24, 2005)

Tonight's episode was very intense and shows the cruelity of some humans. _Battlestar Galactica_ has so many great characters that it's hard just to have one favorite.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 24, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Watch it Monday again...11:00 p.m. EST.



 ...and again at 1AMish tonight.


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## Tauric (Sep 24, 2005)

*well holy frak*

After the first two eps this season, I gave up on the show, for some reason it didn't seem to capture my interest.  I came back to watching it the episode before this one, and I was once again riveted.

Then I watch the season finale.  Holy cow.  It's now back on my lineup.


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## Dagger75 (Sep 24, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> January is too far away.




Lets hope Serenity is in the theaters till then


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## Branding Opportunity (Sep 24, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Quick comment just from the opening...
> 
> The survivor tally just jumped up by a little over a thousand people. First time I've really seen that thing change noticably.



They probably added the crew of the Pegasus to the tally.

On a slightly critical note, I wonder if they're going to "humanize" the actions of the Pegasus crew a bit.  In this episodes they just came off as embittered, battle-scarred ass*****, I didn't identify or empathize with any of them.  I guess there wasn't time for that in this episode.  Presenting many competing angles in a situation, and not making everything black and white is something this series has been very good at.  I wonder if they'll do the same for the hard-core military background.

You REALLY get to see how much the inclusion of the civilian population has changed the crew of the Galactica.

Just some thoughts.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

I am home now, got four hours of watching SCI FI stuff to view. BSG will be seen last...I can wait...*DON"T TOUCH the FAST FORWARD!!!* Yes, yes...watch things in order.


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## Wycen (Sep 24, 2005)

At the half hour mark I knew I was going to be pissed because I want to see Pegasus and Galatica fighting gobs of Cylons, not fighting each other.  Now 10 minutes left and all I'm thinking is, Pegasus should be kicking ass, not this crap.


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## Evil Ujio (Sep 24, 2005)

Was I the only one that noticed that one of the pilots of the Pegasus was the lead character for "First Wave" the now defunct Sci-Fi Original series...

I feel like such a geek now


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## Darrin Drader (Sep 24, 2005)

Damn! Just damn. 

I haven't felt this way about a scifi since Babylon 5. That's saying a lot for me. January can't get here fast enough.


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## Volaran (Sep 24, 2005)

I haven't seen the thread yet, and this may be a bit off topic.

A friend was asking why an Admiral, a flag officer would be in charge of a Battlestar.  Is it possible this is normal?  I'm no expert on military ranks, but it seems like they use army ranking up to the point of Colonel, then go on to Commander and Admiral.  Is Commander perhaps the lowest flag rank, like Commodore is in some navies?  If there were only twelve battlestars, originally, it seems like it would make sense for flag officers to command them.

Any thoughts, or am I crazy?


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## wingsandsword (Sep 24, 2005)

Wow, just wow.

An unanswered question, how did Pegasus and its flight compliment avoid the CNP virus that destroyed the entire Colonial fleet?  It was setting in for an overhaul, perhaps it was being implimented then?

Well, we know the details of the Cylon fleet that is following Galactica.  Two Base Stars, about a dozen support ships, and some mysterious super-ship.  Personally, I suspect the super-ship might be a colonization ship, for when the Galactica finds Earth, the Cylons want to land.  Or as was noted, it could be a factory ship to keep rebuilding the Cylon fleet, or some form of super-base-star that might even be a flagship of the entire Cylon race.

I would ask why the President wouldn't just relieve Cain of command (or immediately pardon Tyrol and Helo), as the President, but she probably doesn't know she can do that, but Cain appears to not recognize her as the legitimate President (as she noted that Cain wasn't returning her calls, and seemed openly dubious of her status).  At best it would give legal weight to Adamas actions, but as has been shown before, Adama is willing to disregard the law to do what he thinks is right, for better or worse.

They did a good job at making the Pegasus crew look more inhuman, heartless and outright evil than the Cylons, and that's pretty tall task.  If most of the Colonial fleet was like Pegasus, we should be cheering for the "More human than human" Cylons.

Cain is a bloodthirsty *****: she shot her own XO in the CIC (instead of relieving him of his position), and her own marines have shot 7 crewmen since the Cylon Holocaust.  They are already losing well more than one crewman a month just from being executed, that is utterly insane.  Since the Pegasus has fewer crew than Galactica (only around 1000) and Galactica was already on a skeleton crew, how long could this even hold up before they were running out of qualified crew?

In its own way, this really is a dark mirror of the Original Series episode that inspired it "The Living Legend", where Galactica finds Pegasus and the two Battlestar crews and commanders don't mix well.  However, instead of teaming up to take on a major Cylon base, they end up with guns pointed at each other.  

It's pretty crystal clear that Cain isn't going to last (if nothing else, the dramatic structure of the show and her billing as a guest star indicate that).  Whether she gets fragged by her own officers, shot by Pegasus-6 or Boomer.  When Original Series Cain was believed dead (the end made it ambiguous if Pegasus was destroyed or made an FTL jump at the last moment), it was a moment of sorrow.  When Admiral Cain dies, it will be a moment of relief.

It is possible that Cain could die, but Pegasus survive (or most of its crew and craft compliment at least) and its crew and equipment be integrated with Galactica.  Definitely be a little harsh to blend the two highly disparate groups, but it would provide a nice answer to the low Viper supply, and if it survived a second Battlestar could make for some interesting combat options (being able to have one Battlestar escort the fleet, while the other harries the Cylons).  In original Galactica, when they encountered the Pegasus it was a chance to bring on new crew and a way to introduce new cast members, but nobody (except the engineer) from Pegasus seemed like anybody who would fit in on the show.


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## Lord Wyrm (Sep 24, 2005)

Volaran said:
			
		

> I haven't seen the thread yet, and this may be a bit off topic.
> 
> A friend was asking why an Admiral, a flag officer would be in charge of a Battlestar.  Is it possible this is normal?  I'm no expert on military ranks, but it seems like they use army ranking up to the point of Colonel, then go on to Commander and Admiral.  Is Commander perhaps the lowest flag rank, like Commodore is in some navies?  If there were only twelve battlestars, originally, it seems like it would make sense for flag officers to command them.
> 
> Any thoughts, or am I crazy?





Let's remember Galactica is an older ship, hence a lower ranking officer as the Captain is not unusual.  Adama is only two grades lower than the Admiral so thats not far off.  Also Adama is an older individual and they usually get the good assignments.

Somewhat more on topic:  Is it possible to launch oneselfinto a sugar based coma and wakeup January 1st?


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## Eosin the Red (Sep 24, 2005)

Wow, man. Just wow..... Them is some barbaric SOBs. We have seen torture of a cylon before and he just sat there and took it... How much would it take to break 6 like they did?


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

Lord Wyrm said:
			
		

> Let's remember Galactica is an older ship, hence a lower ranking officer as the Captain is not unusual.  Adama is only two grades lower than the Admiral so thats not far off.  Also Adama is an older individual and they usually get the good assignments.
> 
> Somewhat more on topic:  *Is it possible to launch oneselfinto a sugar based coma and wakeup January 1st*?




Hmmmm, just, just *looking at the hiberation chamber*


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## wingsandsword (Sep 24, 2005)

Lord Wyrm said:
			
		

> Let's remember Galactica is an older ship, hence a lower ranking officer as the Captain is not unusual.  Adama is only two grades lower than the Admiral so thats not far off.  Also Adama is an older individual and they usually get the good assignments.



I'm listening to the podcast commentary now, there was a cut scene where it says that Admiral is one grade directly above Commander.  Commander is apparently equivalent to Commodore or one-star Rear Admiral, while Admiral refers to the higher flag ranks.

Apparently the episode, as originally intended, ran 15 minutes over, and they almost made it into a 90 minute episode but it was just a little too short, so they trimmed what they could to get the slightly elongated broadcast cut, and that the 2nd Season DVD will have the extended 75 minute cut of the episode.

In answering to my own query, the podcast makes it clear (it was explained in a cut scene) that Pegasus survived the CNP problem because most of its computers were offline for the refit, and since it survived the first strike and the blind jump, they were able to figure out that the CNP was a trap and disable it.

There was also a cut scene where apparently the fleet was refusing to resupply Pegasus since Pegasus was not providing aid to the fleet, where Roslin confronts Cain and demands Pegasus provide aid to the fleet, where Cain outright says that she doesn't recognize her as president and thus not her presidential orders, as far as she's concerned the civilian government doesn't exist anymore and she's the sole goverment of the human race.

In the uncut version, there was even more tension between the crews as they mixed.

They almost made the engineer a Scotty homage, but decided not to.  James Doohan died when the episode was under production, and having the Pegasus having an engineer who was a pseudo-Scottish mechanical genius almost made it to screen as a tribute.

Cains style of command (or at least certain specific quirks) was apparently inspired by a certain real-world political figure known for being abusive to subordinates.

Yes, Starbuck's flight in the stealth fighter will apparently be key in what happens in part 2.


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## Lord Wyrm (Sep 24, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> there was a cut scene where it says that Admiral is one grade directly above Commander.  Commander is apparently equivalent to Commodore or one-star Rear Admiral, while Admiral refers to the higher flag ranks.





Sorry, my comment was based on the Naval Ranks of the US.  I'm kinda rusty on them as well, though I know my AF ranks real good.


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## sensate (Sep 24, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Well that is an interesting interogation technique.





It is called rape and I think to call it just interesting is too flippant for such a violent act.  Why don't you try imagining it happening to your mother or your sister and then tell us how interesting you think it is.


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## John Crichton (Sep 24, 2005)

sensate said:
			
		

> It is called rape and I think to call it just interesting is too flippant for such a violent act.  Why don't you try imagining it happening to your mother or your sister and then tell us how interesting you think it is.



 Or we could all just remember that this is a show, not real and hope that those terrible things NEVER happen to any of our loved ones or anyone that we will ever meet.


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## John Crichton (Sep 24, 2005)

Good ep.  I certainly had my fist in the position of defiance when the "to be continued" flashed across the bottom of my screen.  I've respected this series from the start, which was unexpected.  I've always enjoyed the dark tone that it kept.  I've always felt that in order to experience incredible highs, we must do the same for the lows and the good programs do that.  They don't cheese out and try to manufacture rage, joy or anything in between out of nothing.

As that relates to this episode - there was a nice sheen of resentment over the whole thing.  Both Adama and Roslin have become comfortable in their current roles and from an outsider's view things may look lax and sloppy (which they were).  Even with the joyful moments, the upbeat music and the cheering on deck a pall hung over the whole thing.  And add to it, no character named Cain has ever (okay, maybe not ever - I haven't watched and read everything but you get the notion) been on the up and up within this genre.  Cain's demeanor was never kind or sympathetic and not for one minute did I believe that she wouldn't or didn't execute an officer who defied her orders.  Adama and his are in for a world of hurt.

Pegasus-Six is an interesting twist.  She was obviously brutalized in every way possible, I don't think we need to get into details.  When Sci-Fi ran the "Adult Material Alert!" before that segment it was quite obvious that we were going to see something sexual in nature.  They showed just enough to make you hate the interrogator even more and to route for the would-be rescuers.  The interaction with Baltar is something I'm looking forward to.  But not as much as...

Starbuck!  Just can't keep the girl down.  She was wrong to talk up the way she did in the briefing but it's her way so I can't fault her for that.  I would have thrown her off the mission as well.  The right move would have been to somehow bring up the record of her brilliant attack plan against the mining base in S1.  Oh well, she's not a scalpel, she's a sledgehammer.  I'm really looking forward to seeing her in the cockpit again after a very long time off.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

sensate said:
			
		

> It is called rape and I think to call it just interesting is too flippant for such a violent act.  Why don't you try imagining it happening to your mother or your sister and then tell us how interesting you think it is.




Yes, with this in mind. Let the tone of this, be handle with great care. This goes for everyone.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

Now my comment.

 HOLY FRACK!!!!!  ​
Comment end.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Wow, man. Just wow..... Them is some barbaric SOBs. We have seen torture of a cylon before and he just sat there and took it... How much would it take to break 6 like they did?




Judging from the injuries seen and the ones not.

Quiet a lot.

And as a reminder, I know I am repeating myself here, folks.

Do not take anything here said out of context, or whatever can sour this topic. Keep it constructive and simple.

The worst part of all this...I had a heads up, with that situation now seen, from a reliable source *web site*, and my mouth dropped in seeing the statement about that scene with the "broken" Model 6, and I knew, this will cause some hard talk about it.

So, in the interest of keeping a decent rapport with each other.

If it too much too deal with...restrict the possible fire, that may leave your thoughts...and let it burn out. Out on it's own.

Thank You.

Now...we must wait until January...I have sedatives and BSG hug pillows, if anyone needs one.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

Here is a question on the 'broken" Model 6, if she is saved. Will she be brought aboard Galatica? Will Baltar have a physical relationship? Will this '"broken" M6 recovered from her ordeal?

This not a peverted question...just looking at the possibilites being seen.

Now with Boomer #2, in captivity. I watch her closely. Despite all the crap her kin done, to the human race. Seeing the dark side of humanity, had to be a eye-opener for her. What will she do now, that she has seen and felt the dark taint, that always existed in humans, but seldom seen. Would she want to raise her child among them *if and when it gets to that point*?

Man...just more questions than answers now...

And wait, Admiral Cain was not told that she pregant either. Was she?



			
				JC said:
			
		

> Pegasus-Six is an interesting twist. She was obviously brutalized in every way possible, I don't think we need to get into details. When Sci-Fi ran the "Adult Material Alert!" before that segment it was quite obvious that we were going to see something sexual in nature. They showed just enough to make you hate the interrogator even more and to route for the would-be rescuers. The interaction with Baltar is something I'm looking forward to. But not as much as...


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## wingsandsword (Sep 24, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Now with Boomer #2, in captivity. I watch her closely. Despite all the crap her kin done, to the human race. Seeing the dark side of humanity, had to be a eye-opener for her. What will she do now, that she has seen and felt the dark taint, that always existed in humans, but seldom seen. Would she want to raise her child among them *if and when it gets to that point*?



Well, she saw the dark side of humanity, she also saw two humans that literally charged to her rescue, and were willing to sacrifice their lives to protect her.  Adama was willing to put the entire Galactica at risk for the people who saved her.

I'll assume that Cain knew about Boomers pregnancy, since Adama sent over all his logs.

As for a physical relationship with "Gina" (apparently the in-house name for Pegasus-6 according to the podcast), who knows.  Might be a bit of an acid test for how 6 appears in Baltars mind, given how two copies of 6 might interact, or if it's just a chip will it go dormant so a "real" 6 can take over?  Only time will tell.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Well, she saw the dark side of humanity, she also saw two humans that literally charged to her rescue, and were willing to sacrifice their lives to protect her.  Adama was willing to put the entire Galactica at risk for the people who saved her.
> 
> I'll assume that Cain knew about Boomers pregnancy, *since Adama sent over all his logs*.
> 
> As for a physical relationship with "Gina" (apparently the in-house name for Pegasus-6 according to the podcast), who knows.  Might be a bit of an acid test for how 6 appears in Baltars mind, given how two copies of 6 might interact, or if it's just a chip will it go dormant so a "real" 6 can take over?  Only time will tell.




Yeah, on that note she would, if it was put in. And mercy, she ran off with quotes, directly from his logs too, to shut him down for his defiance. She could have mention the pregant part too...just to raise hairs. But methinks, that part, *is off the books * as they said.

Then again, mere speculation...on my part. Okay, time to sleep. Been up for a near 20 hours.

Goo----


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## Darthjaye (Sep 24, 2005)

Man the crew of Pegasus was littered with stars from other sci-fi shows.  As well as veterans from other cool shows too.  The Captain that Lee was with was non other than "Pistol Pete" himself from Brisco County Jr (and plenty other sci-fi-ish shows), Michelle Forbes of course, and even her XO was a somebody in TV circles.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 24, 2005)

I'm curious to know if Adama sent over all the logs.  It wouldn't surprise me if he left a couple items out.  I also would not be surprised at all if Adama used a little Cylon virus attack against the Pegasus himself.  I think he and Boomer can find some "common ground" on that point again.


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## LrdApoc (Sep 24, 2005)

Since i havn't yet seen the final aired version I'm not positive it is in there but during the scene where Cain tells adama she is going to integrate the crew she mentioned that Agathon has Impregnated an enemy agent. I'm not sure this is in the final cut but it was very clearly in the earlier version I saw... so yes, Cain does know about B2's baby daddy situation. (Sorry couldn't resist that comment - I'm usually much more proper

LrdApoc
---------------------------------
http://www.dispatch.com/gameon


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 24, 2005)

LrdApoc said:
			
		

> Since i havn't yet seen the final aired version I'm not positive it is in there but during the scene where Cain tells adama she is going to integrate the crew she mentioned that Agathon has Impregnated an enemy agent. I'm not sure this is in the final cut but it was very clearly in the earlier version I saw... so yes, Cain does know about B2's baby daddy situation. (Sorry couldn't resist that comment - I'm usually much more proper
> 
> LrdApoc
> ---------------------------------
> http://www.dispatch.com/gameon




Lack of sleep can make someone forget thiings  , so it is noted. Cain-dark human of Pegasus, knows...


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## mmu1 (Sep 24, 2005)

Hmm. I guess I'm alone about having reservations about the direction this season finale took... Don't get me wrong, I thought it was great, but depending on how the events play out, I can see myself being fed up with the series really soon.

Specifically, I'll be really annoyed if the encounter with the Pegasus ends up just being a "special two-hour event" and after the brief plotline is resolved the series just goes back to the standard format of Galactica, strung out, low on parts, low on pilots, running from the Cylons once again. (after Pegasus somehow gets destroyed, and Baltar rescues "Pegasus Six" and brings her back to Galactica, neatly tying up that lose end, so as to not overcomplicate the future plot, and not have to increase the show's cast and budget)

At the very least, I want to see major change in the show after this - Pegasus survivors, new ships, etc.


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## John Crichton (Sep 24, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Hmm. I guess I'm alone about having reservations about the direction this season finale took... Don't get me wrong, I thought it was great, but depending on how the events play out, I can see myself being fed up with the series really soon.
> 
> Specifically, I'll be really annoyed if the encounter with the Pegasus ends up just being a "special two-hour event" and after the brief plotline is resolved the series just goes back to the standard format of Galactica, strung out, low on parts, low on pilots, running from the Cylons once again. (after Pegasus somehow gets destroyed, and Baltar rescues "Pegasus Six" and brings her back to Galactica, neatly tying up that lose end, so as to not overcomplicate the future plot, and not have to increase the show's cast and budget)
> 
> At the very least, I want to see major change in the show after this - Pegasus survivors, new ships, etc.



 Moore's shows don't typically cheese out like that.  He's more like Joss Whedon or JMS that way.  Something this big happens and it resonates.  I, too, would be dissappointed but I trust this show like I did B5 at this point to stay true to it's own history.


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## BrooklynKnight (Sep 24, 2005)

She knew about the pregnancy. When she gave the order to transfer crew she specifically brought up Helo as an example of why she was doing it.


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## wingsandsword (Sep 24, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Specifically, I'll be really annoyed if the encounter with the Pegasus ends up just being a "special two-hour event" and after the brief plotline is resolved the series just goes back to the standard format of Galactica, strung out, low on parts, low on pilots, running from the Cylons once again. (after Pegasus somehow gets destroyed, and Baltar rescues "Pegasus Six" and brings her back to Galactica, neatly tying up that lose end, so as to not overcomplicate the future plot, and not have to increase the show's cast and budget)
> 
> At the very least, I want to see major change in the show after this - Pegasus survivors, new ships, etc.



New Galactica thrives on continuity.  Pegasus was an episode that was built on everything that happened before, how many references were there to earlier episodes and things that happened?  When in new BSG does an episode have a major effect on characters or plot that is ignored in later episodes?  I'm expecting the events of Pegasus to have a major effect on the rest of the show.

Even in original BSG, which was very episodic and had not much in the way of continuity used their Pegasus episode as a defining moment and a chance to bring in new ships and crew.

Also, all the spoiler sites are reporting: *Big Spoiler*:[sblock]Although Cain dies, the Pegasus survives and stays with the fleet for at least several episodes.  Also, Roslin promotes Adama to Admiral in the second half, as he now commands two Battlestars.[/sblock]Oh, and I just now picked up my S1 box set, so I'm off to watch it all over again in one sitting


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## BrooklynKnight (Sep 24, 2005)

[sblock]
That would be so fracking cool. And I bet he commands from the older Galactica just because.

Speculation: The Pegasus is finally destroyed in the season finaly, at which point all the parts left are scrapped and used to upgrade galactica and fix her up nice and good. 
[/sblock]
Just some "plot" holes i guess. If the pegasus was about to be overhauled when the war started (if she was telling the truth at all), then shouldnt they have been short handed on crew and supplies? 

When Cain comes aboard she welcomes Galactica and the fleet, back to the colonial fleet. Uh, shouldnt it be the other way around? Unless she really does consider herself and the pegasus "the fleet".

*grr* Dont wanna wait till Jan. I really wish that Sci-fi would take a page from fox (I cant belive I just said that) and split its year into "two" full seasons for seprate shows.

On Fox, 24 ran all the way through with no interruptions, on FX the Shield did the same followed by that other show with Dennis Leary.

If they found a decent show to fill the gap they'd have good ratings year round.


----------



## Red Spire Press (Sep 24, 2005)

Holy frack indeed. Pure intensity. Loved it. Screamed at the screen as "to be continued" popped up, as I suspected I would. Waiting until January suuuuuuuuucks.


----------



## wingsandsword (Sep 24, 2005)

Volaran said:
			
		

> A friend was asking why an Admiral, a flag officer would be in charge of a Battlestar.  Is it possible this is normal?  I'm no expert on military ranks, but it seems like they use army ranking up to the point of Colonel, then go on to Commander and Admiral.  Is Commander perhaps the lowest flag rank, like Commodore is in some navies?  If there were only twelve battlestars, originally, it seems like it would make sense for flag officers to command them.
> 
> Any thoughts, or am I crazy?



Rewatching the miniseries, they make it clear that there were originally 12 battlestars, in that at the outbreak of the Cylon War they built 12, one for each Colony (Galactica was the Caprica Battlestar), however when the attack begins, they say they lost 30 Battlestars in the first wave, which was a quarter of the fleet.  If they have around 120 Battlestars, and the Galactica was an old, small, obsolete Battlestar that was being phased out, its commanding officer wasn't likely to be one of the higest ranking flag officers in the Fleet.

Also, in real-world terms, Carrier Battle Groups in the modern day US Navy have an Admiral aboard them.  A Captain may command the actual Carrier, but overall command of the group generally goes to a Rear Admiral (one star).  Since the "BSG 75" line on the Galactica insignia stands for 75th Battlestar Group, and the producers own podcast commentaries say that the Battlestars are analgous to modern day aircraft carriers, a flag officer would be in charge of the Battlestar Group, just that Pegasus being a larger, more powerful, and (originally) more important Battlestar might have a higher ranking flag officer in charge of its Battlestar Group.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 25, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Or we could all just remember that this is a show, not real and hope that those terrible things NEVER happen to any of our loved ones or anyone that we will ever meet.



Or we could expect understatement and sarcasm flying past the head of someone who then rounds on you and attacks as if you were serious.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 25, 2005)

I only though it was ok.  I still don't have any empathy for any of the toasters, or Helo for that matter.  Why couldn't Boomer defend herself since it was shown that Cylons are still much stronger than humans?  But there has always been inconsistancy in the capabilities of the cylons in this show, I think they just wing it.  They show the one cylon snaps his handcuffs like they were nothing and tell Starbuck that he is only sitting there taking the interrogation because he wants to...then of course he doesn't seem to try and overpower the guards who are waterboarding him.   Did they make their female models weaker for some reason?  Why would Boomer just take all the beatings she has been given?  I hope it's becuase she is manipulating the crew big time like they suckers they usually are and not becuase they aren't really making an effort for consistancy.  We will see.

Not dealing with the relationship between the Admiral and the President was kind of glaring.  But I'm guessing that will be dealt with next episode.  Roslin should show more backbone and take charge of this situation.  

Starbuck once again was annoying, but she's always annoying.  I liked it when Adama told her and Apollo to shut up as they were crying like 7 year olds over getting orders they didn't like.  How many years have they been in the military?

It was ok but I'm not sure if I like where the show is headed.


----------



## John Crichton (Sep 25, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Or we could expect understatement and sarcasm flying past the head of someone who then rounds on you and attacks as if you were serious.



We could.  But you'd have to ask the original poster as to intent as I certainly don't recognize him/her as a long-standing member/poster in the community therefore have no idea about intent.  I like my conversations in context.

Take it how you like.  I certainly did.


----------



## wilrich (Sep 25, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Or we could all just remember that this is a show, not real and hope that those terrible things NEVER happen to any of our loved ones or anyone that we will ever meet.




Yeah, its just a show, but I think the point was, show or no show, calling rape "an interesting interrogation technique" minimizes and trivializes the terror, trauma and true evil that that act is.  A comment that trivializes something as evil as rape is a comment that trivializes rape, even if that comment was prompted by only a TV show.


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## wilrich (Sep 25, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Or we could all just remember that this is a show, not real and hope that those terrible things NEVER happen to any of our loved ones or anyone that we will ever meet.





Just to clarify, I'm NOT saying that you do not recognize that rape is a truly vile act -- your post indicates that you clearly do -- my point is that I don't think that one should excuse a remark (the one that prompted your post) that trivializes something so vile on the grounds that it was a TV show prompted that remark.


----------



## Wormwood (Sep 25, 2005)

When they initially revealed "PegaSix" sprawled on the floor of her cell, she was laying in a position which led me to believe that her arms had been amputated. 

Which, the more I thought about it, is definitely something I would do if I ever captured a Cylon Infiltrator alive. At the elbows and knees. 

How else do you keep a dangerous machine under your control, especially one which is superhumanly strong and agile?


----------



## Wayside (Sep 25, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Or we could expect understatement and sarcasm flying past the head of someone who then rounds on you and attacks as if you were serious.



We could even acknowledge that the whole reason BSG is so interesting is that it's _never_ as black and white as all that.



			
				wilrich said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, I'm NOT saying that you do not recognize that rape is a truly vile act -- your post indicates that you clearly do -- my point is that I don't think that one should excuse a remark (the one that prompted your post) that trivializes something so vile on the grounds that it was a TV show prompted that remark.



I rather think genocide--let's estimate ultra-conservatively (I don't recall ever hearing death figures, someone fill me in if we have them) and say 5 billion per colony died, so _60 billion_ human beings total--is a _truly_ vile act as well. Rape is certainly nothing to shrug your shoulders about, but like I said, part of what makes BSG so damn interesting is that it's never that straightforward. A game of D&D this show aint.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Sep 25, 2005)

Best show on TV, bar none.

As for the podcast comment where Cain deliberately did not recognize President Roslin, since it was excised from the show - it didn't happen in the BSG universe.  Ron Moore has said several times in the podcasts - if it didn't get broadcast - it didn't happen.

Moreoever, I can't see Adama taking orders from an Admiral who deliberately did not recognize Roslin.  That would be a coup d'etat and the failure to recognize *any* civilian gov't would mean the Admiral giving him orders didn't take orders.  While the irony of his being upset with such a coup would not be lost upon Adama, "the context", as Adama might put it - is different.

Prediction: My expectation is that Roslin orders them both to stand down and Cain will hesitate and Roslin will order the Pegasus Ex-O to relieve the Admiral from command. Cain will back off but with a hint of "only for now bitch".

Alternative: Starbuck jumps back with "holy  news" and Adam and Cain break off the civil war to prep for battle agaisnt the Cylons.

Prediction: After a lot of talk and crew flying back and forth and meeting on civilian ground , this is going to end like the original Pegasus episode - with the Cylons attacking and the Pegasus staying behind to nuke the mothership as the fleet jumps away...with an obscure "end" for the Pegasus.

Postcript: When Baltar can't save Real_Six or get her off the Pegasus - he will have to depart in a hurry. He will kill her to save her from her fate.  Real_six will say something obscure to make Baltar think that the one inside his head might be real - or might not be - as that question in the viewer's mind is too good for Moore to abandon. Something to do with the baby, I expect, such as:  

Real_Six: "I saved you. Now you Gaius must save me. You know what you have to do."
Balatar: I can't. I'... <stammer>...I'll get you out...I can't leave you..."
Real_Six: Gaius. I'll wake up in a new body. That's my only escape. You have to go back Gaius. You have to save the baby."  
Gaius: <looks pained>
Six_inhis_Head: Gaius. Hurry."

Overall: Cain is a nutbar - but one you can understand. She is a military leader without any civilian gov't oversight and without any humanity to defend. She is without hope. She exists only for vengeance.  She represents the dead-end militarist path Adama would have taken but for Roslin's command to run and make babies.

It's interesting to see how Moore did an about face on the idea of military discipline working on the "last ship".  In Voyager, the other Fed ship the Voyager encountered stranded in the Quadrant had a total breakdown of starfleet dicipline and that was how its Captain and crew had lost thier way.  This time, it was a failure to retain their humanity and to surrendder it to a rigid adherence to militarism that was Cain's sin.  

Brilliant show.


----------



## Dagger75 (Sep 25, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> We could.  But you'd have to ask the original poster as to intent as I certainly don't recognize him/her as a long-standing member/poster in the community therefore have no idea about intent.  I like my conversations in context.
> 
> Take it how you like.  I certainly did.




What happened is I was watching it on DVR and Saw Six in the Cell,  I had thought they cut off her arms.  Thats what I get for posting and watching TV.

 Holy Cow I should visit threads I post to more often.


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## wingsandsword (Sep 25, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Best show on TV, bar none.
> 
> As for the podcast comment where Cain deliberately did not recognize President Roslin, since it was excised from the show - it didn't happen in the BSG universe.  Ron Moore has said several times in the podcasts - if it didn't get broadcast - it didn't happen.



That scene wasn't cut from the episode for content, or to change the meaning of anything, it was cut for time, and even then, the commentary says it will be restored in full on the DVD with a "directors cut" of the episode with about an extra 15 minutes of footage.  The only reason it was cut is that TV shows don't run 75 minutes, and they didn't have enough to pad it out to 90 minutes like Sci-Fi offered.  

Every other time deleted scenes from an episode were included, like in the Season 1 DVD, it was in a separate part, here it is going to be a new "directors cut" cut of the Episode, that sounds pretty authoritative to me.

It was already strongly implied that Cain didn't acknowledge Roslin (like not even returning her messages, and her outright scorn for her in some scenes).  If Cain was known not to acknowledge the President, it also solves the gaping plot hole of why didn't Roslin pardon the people she convicted, relieve her of command, or otherwise invoke her Executive authority, at least in token.  If Cain had already spurned Roslins authority, it would make it a lot more sensical for Adama to make his stand against her, since Cains legal authority would be void.

Oh, and yes, I also thought at first they'd amputated Pegasus-6's arms.  Maybe they meant to imply that, maybe not, but given the savagery that the Pegasus crew had already been shown capiable of, it was no surprise they could be so barbaric, and actually a little surprising when they showed she still had arms.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 25, 2005)

I think people are over thinking the arms behind the back thing.  I think they were just shackled behind her back (standard procedure) and it was just hard to tell, especially with the prisoners rags she was wearing.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 25, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I think people are over thinking the arms behind the back thing.  I think they were just shackled behind her back (standard procedure) and it was just hard to tell, especially with the prisoners rags she was wearing.




I agree.  I didn't think they were amputated or anything like that.  And since it killed 7 people according to the Pegasus crew I think they had reason to keep it shackled.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Sep 25, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> That scene wasn't cut from the episode for content, or to change the meaning of anything, it was cut for time, and even then, the commentary says it will be restored in full on the DVD with a "directors cut" of the episode with about an extra 15 minutes of footage.  The only reason it was cut is that TV shows don't run 75 minutes, and they didn't have enough to pad it out to 90 minutes like Sci-Fi offered.
> 
> Every other time deleted scenes from an episode were included, like in the Season 1 DVD, it was in a separate part, here it is going to be a new "directors cut" cut of the Episode, that sounds pretty authoritative to me.




No. It isn't authoritative and what's more - you misquoted Moore. After I read your post I listened to the Podcast and you should listen to it again too; Moore does not say that scene was cut for length  Moore says the script at one point developed that way - not that it was shot that way.  Other scenes were shot and cut - but that wasn't one of them.



> It was already strongly implied that Cain didn't acknowledge Roslin (like not even returning her messages, and her outright scorn for her in some scenes)




Yes it was. But the Secretary of Education line is a view which Adama shared.  The "I don't recognize civilian government at all" line would have gone too far and they dropped it from the script.


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 25, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I agree.  I didn't think they were amputated or anything like that.  And since it killed 7 people according to the Pegasus crew I think they had reason to keep it shackled.




They were certainly not clear as to how and when it killed seven crewman. In the middle of a gang-rape...changes one's views of Gina's murderous culpability. (Gina is Moore's name for PegaSix)

The whole view you take of a villain like Six is very different in this episode though, because of the presentation. It's a fascinating way to play with emotions in the viewer to ellicit a very different response. 

Love this show.


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## DonTadow (Sep 25, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I think people are over thinking the arms behind the back thing.  I think they were just shackled behind her back (standard procedure) and it was just hard to tell, especially with the prisoners rags she was wearing.



UP until the doc started feeding her, I swore her arms had been severed as well.  I'm not sure if that was a great camera trick done purposely but it made me feel more compassion for her and made me realize how much more barbaric the pegasus crew had been.


----------



## Wormwood (Sep 25, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> UP until the doc started feeding her, I swore her arms had been severed as well.  I'm not sure if that was a great camera trick done purposely but it made me feel more compassion for her and made me realize how much more barbaric the pegasus crew had been.




While I did feel some compassion for the cylon's plight, I found myself thinking that amputation really was a logical solution to a difficult problem.

To paraphrase my wife: "We de-clawed out cat...and we _loved _him. If I was on a Battlestar and finally got my hands on Osama Bin Cylon? Bonesaw. Stat."


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Sep 25, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Also, in real-world terms, Carrier Battle Groups in the modern day US Navy have an Admiral aboard them.  A Captain may command the actual Carrier, but overall command of the group generally goes to a Rear Admiral (one star).  Since the "BSG 75" line on the Galactica insignia stands for 75th Battlestar Group, and the producers own podcast commentaries say that the Battlestars are analgous to modern day aircraft carriers, a flag officer would be in charge of the Battlestar Group, just that Pegasus being a larger, more powerful, and (originally) more important Battlestar might have a higher ranking flag officer in charge of its Battlestar Group.




The problem with this is that the Admiral doesn't command the carrier, the Captain does.  The Admiral commands the Battle Group (admittedly, of which the carrier is a part), which includes 4-6 escorts of varying capabilities, some anti-sub, some anti-air.

This, however, is easily solved.  I believe I read somewhere, possibly on SciFi.com, that there are smaller escort vessels in the fleet.  At least, there were.  Galactica, obviously, didn't have any escorts assigned to her at the time of the attack, since she was being decommissioned and wasn't on active duty.  Pegasus, going into spacedock, would not have had her escorts around at the time.  They'd either have been pulled away for reassignment or gone into dock ahead of time and didn't make it out.  Alternately, they could have already "taken one for the team", so to speak.

Brad


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## ThirdWizard (Sep 25, 2005)

It seemed... eh. Not my favorite BSG episode.

The entire crew of the Pegasus seems cracked. They have an admiral on board who will willy-nilly kill them, apparently, and the conversation with the crew talking about Six's blank eyes is just disturbing. What surprises me, actually, is that they haven't just started taking guns to each other and had some serial killings or that Cain hasn't been assassinated yet. She's like a Mirror-Mirror Kirk without the kill-anyone-machine. Or maybe she's like a Gould without the glowing eyes and powers/tech. Everyone should probably be looking to kill her and take her place, but it seems like the rest of the crew is insane, yet unable to do anything. Obsessed with the chain of command? I doubt it.

I don't really know what to make of it. Maybe its just the two dimesional nature of the Pegaus crew that's getting to me. Yeah, I know, we arn't going to see well several new characters extremely developed in the timespan of a single episode. But, man, they just do nothing for me. They're all mean, petty, and scared. They don't make good bad guys. They remind me of gollum. Little impotent monsters (even if they are holding onto some big guns themselves).

Oh! Except that civilian who was drafted. He was cool: an engineer and interested in the stealth ship. He was interesting. I'm hoping he'll stay as a main cast member.


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 25, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Oh! Except that civilian who was drafted. He was cool: an engineer and interested in the stealth ship. He was interesting. I'm hoping he'll stay as a main cast member.




Agreed. I got a feeling that guy may be sticking around.


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## Fast Learner (Sep 25, 2005)

Imagine that the Earth was destroyed, and only you and 1,000 people remained. You have a ship capable of doing some real damage to the beings who destroyed everyone and everything you love. You spend 6 months doing nothing but that, every day, your only real pleasure the vengeful lust of killing your enemy. Everyone around you is reshaping their own life philosophies at the same time you are, grasping for _something_ to make living worthwhile.

It's not a chain of command issue for the crew of the Pegasus: it's a genuine, largely-unintentional but essential mindset that most of them share. They don't have the humanizing influence of the real feeling that humanity can be saved, that there are others to protect. They have become who they appear to be.

That doesn't mean they can't change, mind you. Now that they know that there are 50,000 humans in the universe, a whole bunch of them relatively defensless civilians who need your help, people with freedoms and hope, the world just isn't so black and white anymore.

I think that two-dimensionality is a very real thing brought out of us during times of intense stress, most especially war. It's how we cope, and it's sadly but utterly authentic-feeling to me.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 26, 2005)

ThirdWizard=The entire crew of the Pegasus seems cracked. They have an admiral on board who will willy-nilly kill them, apparently, and the conversation with the crew talking about Six's blank eyes is just disturbing. What surprises me, actually, is that they haven't just started taking guns to each other and had some serial killings or that Cain hasn't been assassinated yet. She's like a Mirror-Mirror Kirk without the kill-anyone-machine. Or maybe she's like a Gould without the glowing eyes and powers/tech. Everyone should probably be looking to kill her and take her place, but it seems like the rest of the crew is insane, yet unable to do anything. Obsessed with the chain of command? I doubt it.

Just keep in mind, Cain has many of the command codes, that she knows only . Remove her, and there is a great possibility of a non-functional ship. But your thesis, on the crew going dark plays more than the other part, of someone bumping her off. Keep this in mind. 700 crewman were killed in the surprise attack, out of how many that work on onboard a Battlestar class ship.

These 700, had friends aboard that ship, and it is great possibility, that many had serve with Cain for quite a while. As a example, her former XO, who was shot by her. The remaining survivors of that incredible and heart rendering attack. Saw other Battlestars and ships go up quick, on the first nuke assualt.

I think in earnest, those who were left, were so shell-shocked at what happened, fell into that trap, for an eye for eye bit. Everyone...including Cain. So in the end. If nobody wanted to replace her, even if she shot several people for any slightest disagreement on orders and such, it is because, everyone on board, or almost everyone, wants revenge in the worst way. And they don't care how they get it.

That term is called tunnel vision. Which has been nicely illustrated through the lower ranks of the Pegasus to those in the hgher echolon of command.

This is where, as some people would say, the main objective has been obscured to a point. And this was made worse, to the fact, that Pegasus has been alone since the major attack. But one odd thing. The Civilian engineer drafted into the war, what happened to his ship, as he said, that Pegasus got him from?


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 26, 2005)

DonTadow=UP until the doc started feeding her, I swore her arms had been severed as well. I'm not sure if that was a great camera trick done purposely but it made me feel more compassion for her and made me realize how much more barbaric the pegasus crew had been.

I believe the term from Hollywood, is called an optical Illusion. And believe me, you were not alone in that thought  . But then I realize that she had arms, the cuff restraints connecting links were running from her feet to the back of her body.

But the impression was there...just the impression.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 26, 2005)

SteelWind=They were certainly not clear as to how and when it killed seven crewman. In the middle of a gang-rape...changes one's views of Gina's murderous culpability. (Gina is Moore's name for PegaSix)

I will presume on when she was first detected as a Cylon. *Although, that leaves more mystery, on how that happened in the first* And when they went after her, well...the seven weren't so lucky.

Just speculation...as you know.


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## Branding Opportunity (Sep 26, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Oh! Except that civilian who was drafted. He was cool: an engineer and interested in the stealth ship. He was interesting. I'm hoping he'll stay as a main cast member.



Maybe it was me, but I thought he was one of the creepiest people on that ship.  Did you see his reaction when they remarked that he was a civilian?  He said something like "Well, these things happen."  It was obvious that he had seen some pretty rough stuff over on the Pegasus and survived by just keeping his head down.

It would be interesting to find out more of what went on over there.  When you have nothing left to live for other than to hurt the people that hurt you, it can turn the most noble of humans into monsters.


----------



## Branding Opportunity (Sep 26, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> I believe the term from Hollywood, is called an optical Illusion. And believe me, you were not alone in that thought  . But then I realize that she had arms, the cuff restraints connecting links were running from her feet to the back of her body.
> 
> But the impression was there...just the impression.



I had the same impression.  Memories of the movie "Boxing Helena" came back to me.

*shudder*


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 26, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty=Why couldn't Boomer defend herself since it was shown that Cylons are still much stronger than humans?  

Let us not forget, she came off from emergency surgery to save her baby. And depending how good her healing factor is. Maybe she was following doctor orders, not be in any strenuous activity *being locked up doesn't count  *, so...she might be still healing. And plus, she was got off guard to what was happening.


----------



## Branding Opportunity (Sep 26, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Flexor the Mighty=Why couldn't Boomer defend herself since it was shown that Cylons are still much stronger than humans?
> 
> Let us not forget, she came off from emergency surgery to save her baby. And depending how good her healing factor is. Maybe she was following doctor orders, not be in any strenuous activity *being locked up doesn't count  *, so...she might be still healing. And plus, she was got off guard to what was happening.



I'm still also not completely convinced that everything the cylons do or say is in some way a manipulation or a deception.  I don't take anything they say at face value ... yet.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 26, 2005)

Branding Opportunity said:
			
		

> I'm still also not completely convinced that everything the cylons do or say is in some way a manipulation or a deception.  I don't take anything they say at face value ... yet.




Excellent, keep that judgement in reserve.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 26, 2005)

Branding Opportunity said:
			
		

> I had the same impression.  Memories of the movie "Boxing Helena" came back to me.
> 
> *shudder*




I heard about that movie, never saw it. Don't know, if I can bring myself to see it either.


----------



## Nellisir (Sep 26, 2005)

Branding Opportunity said:
			
		

> I'm still also not completely convinced that everything the cylons do or say is in some way a manipulation or a deception.  I don't take anything they say at face value ... yet.




Given the information and abilities the Cylons, particularly Boomer/Sharon, have previously displayed under pressure, I assume that 1)everything they say is for a reason, 2) they might not be aware of that reason, and 3) Boomer probably could have told them what the mystery ship is.


----------



## ThirdWizard (Sep 26, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> I think in earnest, those who were left, were so shell-shocked at what happened, fell into that trap, for an eye for eye bit. Everyone...including Cain. So in the end. If nobody wanted to replace her, even if she shot several people for any slightest disagreement on orders and such, it is because, everyone on board, or almost everyone, wants revenge in the worst way. And they don't care how they get it.




I agree. They're definately out for revenge. Their "interrogation" technique for example is a flagrant attempt at gaining some feeling of superiority, and it really has nothing to do with learning anything from the cylons. They feel extremely powerless, with no goal other than kill all the cylons.

But, in the midst of this, Cain is exhibiting very strong and very obvious paranoia toward her own crew. The XO didn't do what she said, so she shot him. Why? The only explaination I can think of is that she felt threatened, probably worried about this leading to a mutiny. Without being able to trust him in the brig (possibly planning an insurection) she killed him instead.

Either she was right, and he would have fought with her for command, or she was wrong and was exhibiting unfounded paranoia to the point of murder. Either way, they're really losing it. I'm not saying its unrealistic. I'm just saying its very self destructive. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, and this was fairly recent. It didn't really seem like that to me watching it, but I could very well be wrong, and this all started happening in the past month. But, if this has been going on a while, that's why I'm surprised they arn't at each others throats.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 27, 2005)

So is everyone on Pegasus supposed to be EVIL save for the engineer?  Has one shown a redeeming quality other than him?


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 27, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> So is everyone on Pegasus supposed to be EVIL save for the engineer?  Has one shown a redeeming quality other than him?




Erm...misdirected intentions?


----------



## DonTadow (Sep 27, 2005)

Without the civilian input and humanity, the Pegasus is a strict millitary ship.   The Pegasus and Galactica both handled the aftermath of the Cylon differently, but neither is wrong.  I can understand hte Pegasus crew and captain.  She needed to keep a very stern and strict ship.  Insubordination and rule breaking could not be tolerated as the only way the crew would be able to focus would be to make sure that their dedication to the ship was important.  She had to make sthe crew realize that the "duty" was all there was left in this world and that it needed to be important if they hoped to survive.  We might see them as cruel but I think that was the facade they've given themselves, and had to present to Galactica.  True, they became hte monsters they were running from.  Perhaps that is what they think they have to do in order to beat them.


----------



## Jarrod (Sep 27, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Overall: Cain is a nutbar - but one you can understand. She is a military leader without any civilian gov't oversight and without any humanity to defend. She is without hope. She exists only for vengeance.  She represents the dead-end militarist path Adama would have taken but for Roslin's command to run and make babies.




Quoted for truth 

This is why you need civilians around the military. Without the presence of a group that is not military but still "human", you end up with "Us pack, others not" mentality. The Cylons are toasters, _at best_, and therefore worthy of nothing. The Galactica crew are a bunch of softies - note the conversations about marking kills. Roslin is some wannabe that's not worthy of even listening to... 

I just want to know what IDIOT let the interrogator and his guards into Sharon's cell without any of the Galactica people around. Though it was probably "You're relieved", more's the pity. 


The bad part is that this is a fight that Adama can't win. He's outnumbered, out-moderned, and outgunned. 



On a completely different note, a friend of mine mentioned that Sky-1 in England was going to keep playing the eps straight through... anyone know if that's true?


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 27, 2005)

Isn't shooting mutineers and cowards in wartime a time honored practice?

And the more I watch this one the more I think it's all part of the overreaching plan of the cylons.  Everything is playing along perfectly to turn Baltar into a total Cylon tool.  Not that he isn't a tool already.  Maybe this is all destiny though, which is why it's all pulliing together like it is.  January is a long way off. 

What rank is the CAG of Pegasus?  He was treating Apollo like a punk from the start so I'm wondering if he's a higher rank?


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Sep 27, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Isn't shooting mutineers and cowards in wartime a time honored practice?




Yep.  That being said, there's a rather large gulf between your XO telling you your plan is a bad idea, and mutiny.

I rather suspect Admiral Cain is no longer entirely sane.  (Of course, I haven't watched it yet...my VCR Fu was not up to snuff on Friday night...)



> What rank is the CAG of Pegasus?  He was treating Apollo like a punk from the start so I'm wondering if he's a higher rank?




He's almost certainly senior to Apollo; he's young for his rank, IIRC.  At the very least, he could have seniority in grade...i.e., they're both captains, but Pegasus' CAG has more time being a captain, and is therefore senior, and can give orders, etc.

More likely, he's a colonel.  A carrier group in RL is made up of several squadrons of planes, each commanded by a commander (0-5, aka lieutenant colonel in the Army/Air Force) or lieutenant commander (0-4, aka major), and the CAG is a captain (O-6, aka colonel).  By an amazing coincidence, a carrier is also typically commanded by a captain, and they theoretically work as a team.

Of course, BSG has flag officers as starship commanders, so the analogy breaks down at that point (that they use a confusing mishmash of Army and Navy ranks doesn't hurt nearly as much).  But, odds are that the Pegasus' CAG is a colonel, same as Tigh.

Brad


----------



## Steel_Wind (Sep 27, 2005)

Jarrod said:
			
		

> On a completely different note, a friend of mine mentioned that Sky-1 in England was going to keep playing the eps straight through... anyone know if that's true?




Yes. But that's only because Sky-1 has yet to show a single episode of Season 2. 

So they are playing them "straight through" only because they have not started their Season 2 yet.

Now - if they are starting Season 2b earlier than the SciFi channel....well... BSG is already the best reason for Bittorrent I've been able to discover.


----------



## Eosin the Red (Sep 27, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> He's almost certainly senior to Apollo; he's young for his rank, IIRC.  At the very least, he could have seniority in grade...i.e., they're both captains, but Pegasus' CAG has more time being a captain, and is therefore senior, and can give orders, etc.




I think on one of the podcasts or articles it talks about Apollo being a test pilot for the military rather than a squad commander so in that sense even if Apollo outranked the CAG of the Peg - he would still be expected to defer command. Couse, you wouldn't place one in a directly subbordinate position under any but the most duressed situations.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 27, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Yes. But that's only because Sky-1 has yet to show a single episode of Season 2.
> 
> So they are playing them "straight through" only because they have not started their Season 2 yet.
> 
> Now - if they are starting Season 2b earlier than the SciFi channel....well... BSG is already the best reason for Bittorrent I've been able to discover.




From what I had read initially they were going to show them without a delay but I read some brits complaining on a forum about having to wait until January so I'm not sure what is up.

Also, the more I think of it after watching it again I think the only way out of it for Galactica is for Pres. Roslin to order Cain to stand down, which she will refuse.  Then some of her crew will relieve her under the orders of the President or a promoted Admiral Adama. I mean  they can't all be evil on a generally well written show like this one, that's too heavy handed and cheap.  Then there will be stories with some of the crew members of the Pegasus interacting with the Galacitca crew and the differences and stuff will lead to interesting story ideas.   

If not we will probably get the EVIL Pegasus overwhelming the obsolete Galactica only to be saved by the wonderful Cylon 4 of 987968943, aka Sharon, with another LAN cable jammed into her arm.  Or the poor 6 model will be helped by Baltar to somehow infect the EVIL computers of the Pegasus saving the good guys from the Pegasus, thus further making the genocidal cylons out to be wonderful people. 

Another question.  Would it be wrong to cut the arms off a older style Cylon if it was in the brig?  It's a true robot instead of a synthetic cyborg creature that mimics humans save for the arm based LAN ports and the spine that glows during particularly hot sex.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Sep 27, 2005)

Flexor, since you seem eager to place this all in the propper moral context (apparently the one where torture of a sentient being is ok because its evil), perhaps you (or someone else who's followed the show more than I) could clarify something for me - did the humans try to commit genocide on them first? My general impression of the new BSG background plot was something along the lines of "Humanity creates cylons as robotic slaves, Cylons get sentient and uppity, humanity tries to correct its mistake by destroying them all, cylons get away and start self manufacturing, cylons come back and return the favor." 

Now this is just based on various previews and internet complaints about what they changed, so any corrections to this impression would be greatly appriciated. But it would help me clarify the moral context of the discussion.


----------



## dravot (Sep 27, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> From what I had read initially they were going to show them without a delay but I read some brits complaining on a forum about having to wait until January so I'm not sure what is up.



My google fu brought up the following:

http://www.greatlink.org/dcisV2.asp?url=http://www.greatlink.org/shownewsitem.asp?item=4858



> UK fans awaiting the broadcast of Battlestar Galactica, Season 2, may have to wait a bit longer.
> 
> According to TV Zone Magazine (Issue 193), "the second season’s UK premiere [on Sky One] has now been put back to January 2006." Previously, the now defunct BBC Cult TV site reported that Season 2 would start in September/October.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 27, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> Flexor, since you seem eager to place this all in the propper moral context (apparently the one where torture of a sentient being is ok because its evil), perhaps you (or someone else who's followed the show more than I) could clarify something for me - did the humans try to commit genocide on them first? My general impression of the new BSG background plot was something along the lines of "Humanity creates cylons as robotic slaves, Cylons get sentient and uppity, humanity tries to correct its mistake by destroying them all, cylons get away and start self manufacturing, cylons come back and return the favor."
> 
> Now this is just based on various previews and internet complaints about what they changed, so any corrections to this impression would be greatly appriciated. But it would help me clarify the moral context of the discussion.




The Cylons started that war too. I believe that the first episode of the miniseries states that humans created Cylons as helper robots, but that one day the Cylons decided to kill thier masters and that started a war that ended in a armistace.  I suppose they got more advanced than the human were aware, rewriting thier programming secretly I guess.  This all lead to the creation of a space station that would be a meeting place for negotations between humans & cylons.  Of course the Cylons didn't show up until they were on the way back to nuke the 12 colonies out of existance in a devastating sneak attack. 

And I question just how sentient a group mind unit like the cylon humanform models are.  How much of an individual they are.  Are they truely thinking machines or do they follow very advanced algorithims that control thier behavior.  Six even showed that they are not fully emotionally capable like humans are in a scene from last season.  There are limits to their programming aparently.  That is why I think they created a modified version of the Boomer model to integrate it with the humans for a period and attempt to experience the full range of human emotion and behavior with the goal of then reconnecting that unit to the whole and expanding the capabilities of the entire line.  And they also have other reasons for her in terms of manipulating the humans via thier emotional reponses to other humanform creatures.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 27, 2005)

I certainly don't get the impression that the entire Pegasus crew is bad people - The looks on the faces of the bridge crew and XO at the end of the episode pretty clearly indicated that there was some serious concerns about Cain's orders.

The assault on Pega-Six and Boomer really says a lot more about the people doing the assaulting than it does about the Cylons.

My personal view is that if a being is truly sentient, it is deserving of being treated in the same manner that another human being would be treated in times of war.  I think Adama and Roslyn are coming around to this line of thinking.  Once they get there, there may be a chance for resolution.

Having atrocities committed against you does not (IMO) give you the right to commit atrocities in return/revenge.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 27, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I certainly don't get the impression that the entire Pegasus crew is bad people - The looks on the faces of the bridge crew and XO at the end of the episode pretty clearly indicated that there was some serious concerns about Cain's orders.
> 
> The assault on Pega-Six and Boomer really says a lot more about the people doing the assaulting than it does about the Cylons.
> 
> ...




Been trying to get that drummed out of the human mind for years....


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 27, 2005)

Are classic model cylons sentient?


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 27, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Are classic model cylons sentient?




AHhhhhhh...good questions.Let's ask them ourselves.

-By Your Command-

ZeoW!! Zeow!!!

*Body hitting the floor*


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## wingsandsword (Sep 27, 2005)

As for who started the war, we don't know the history of the Cylon Wars.

All we know is that humans created the Cylons, originally the "Chrome Toasters", as a servant race to ease life in the Twelve Colonies, then the Cylons started attacking the humans.  Eventually there was an armistice, where the Cylons fled known space to find their own homeworld.

However, we don't know what started the war, or how the Cylons see the war.  For all we know, the Cylons developed sentience after being built, and came to see themselves as a slave race and the Cylon War was their struggle for freedom from slavery.  The Colonies could have decided to deactivate the Cylons or phase them out, and the Cylons saw it as a war for survival.  The "Armistice" could just as easily been the Cylons realizing they had the means and location to leave Colonial space for a new home, having developed enough ships, and scouted out a new homeworld, and thus offering peace since their war had accomplished their goals.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 27, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Are classic model cylons sentient?




to you mean the clanks in the new series or the cylons in the old bsg series?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 27, 2005)

Well the clanks in this series are the equivalent to the robotic models that were in the old series I'm thinking.  Just an updated design.


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## Rykion (Sep 27, 2005)

The Pegasus crew is definitely repugnant, but many of them should be redeemable.  They've been stuck under a draconian commander, and have faced the worst case scenario anyone can think of.  Six seems to be a seduction model.  In their sick minds, the crew of Pegasus might be paying her back for something she did to them.  You also have to remember what the Cylons are doing to the few remaining women they have captive on the Colonies.



			
				Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> My personal view is that if a being is truly sentient, it is deserving of being treated in the same manner that another human being would be treated in times of war.  I think Adama and Roslyn are coming around to this line of thinking.  Once they get there, there may be a chance for resolution.
> 
> Having atrocities committed against you does not (IMO) give you the right to commit atrocities in return/revenge.




The Colonists shouldn't be torturing the Cylons they capture, but since they are spies and saboteurs there is no reason not to execute them and incinerate their remains.  The longer they leave them around, the more chance of them doing damage and gathering information.  Sentient or not, the Cylons have wiped out the majority of humanity and seem to be mostly intent on finishing the job.


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## Endur (Sep 27, 2005)

I liked the Pegasus episode.

Great stuff.  I especially liked the new admiral.  

Too bad they cut part of it from the broadcast for time reasons.

I was disappointed that Commander Adama and Admiral Cain were so quick to launch fighters.  Earlier in the series, Adama, etc. agonized over martial law.  Yet he is so quick to launch a military force now?  

So that came close to breaking suspension of disbelief.  

Also, I'm shocked that Baltar would say words out loud to the cylon prisoner, heedless of any electronic bugs or listening devices that are in the room.


----------



## dravot (Sep 27, 2005)

Endur said:
			
		

> I liked the Pegasus episode.
> 
> Great stuff.  I especially liked the new admiral.
> 
> ...



My only disappointment from the episode was the realization that we'd just had the same exact no-holds-barred-no-real-winners confrontations just 10 episodes ago (at the last season break).

I also thought of the bugs thing.  Baltar would just babble about how he was saying stuff to gain the prisoner's confidence, they'll barely believe it and life will go on.


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## Rykion (Sep 27, 2005)

Endur said:
			
		

> I was disappointed that Commander Adama and Admiral Cain were so quick to launch fighters.  Earlier in the series, Adama, etc. agonized over martial law.  Yet he is so quick to launch a military force now?




Adama didn't want to be in the position where the fleet saw the military as the enemy.  He also didn't want to be put into a position where his crew shot civilians.  Admiral Cain is planning on killing two of Adama's men, including the man most capable of keeping his ship and fighters running.  I really don't see a conflict with Adama's previous actions.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Sep 27, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Also, the more I think of it after watching it again I think the only way out of it for Galactica is for Pres. Roslin to order Cain to stand down, which she will refuse.  Then some of her crew will relieve her under the orders of the President or a promoted Admiral Adama. I mean  they can't all be evil on a generally well written show like this one, that's too heavy handed and cheap.  Then there will be stories with some of the crew members of the Pegasus interacting with the Galacitca crew and the differences and stuff will lead to interesting story ideas.
> 
> If not we will probably get the EVIL Pegasus overwhelming the obsolete Galactica only to be saved by the wonderful Cylon 4 of 987968943, aka Sharon, with another LAN cable jammed into her arm.  Or the poor 6 model will be helped by Baltar to somehow infect the EVIL computers of the Pegasus saving the good guys from the Pegasus, thus further making the genocidal cylons out to be wonderful people.



Or they could do the unpredictable thing and have some of those civillian ships that Zarek put weapons on, to fire a few ineffectual shots at the Pegasus creating a distraction for Galactica to gain the upper hand.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 27, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Well the clanks in this series are the equivalent to the robotic models that were in the old series I'm thinking.  Just an updated design.



I seem to recal an old series ep where a pilot was trapped on a planet with a cylon, which seemed reasonably senient. Weird ep overall, though.


----------



## Wormwood (Sep 27, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Another question.  Would it be wrong to cut the arms off a older style Cylon if it was in the brig?




Not as far as I'm concerned. Rendering the infiltrator models incapable of inflicting harm seems to be a value-neutral act to me as well. 

"We're in this for the species, people!"
—Doogie Howser, SS


----------



## TanisFrey (Sep 27, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> The problem with this is that the Admiral doesn't command the carrier, the Captain does.  The Admiral commands the Battle Group (admittedly, of which the carrier is a part), which includes 4-6 escorts of varying capabilities, some anti-sub, some anti-air.
> 
> This, however, is easily solved.  I believe I read somewhere, possibly on SciFi.com, that there are smaller escort vessels in the fleet.  At least, there were.  Galactica, obviously, didn't have any escorts assigned to her at the time of the attack, since she was being decommissioned and wasn't on active duty.  Pegasus, going into spacedock, would not have had her escorts around at the time.  They'd either have been pulled away for reassignment or gone into dock ahead of time and didn't make it out.  Alternately, they could have already "taken one for the team", so to speak.
> 
> Brad



If I rember correct, Cain said that she was pulling in to dock with her escort group.







			
				Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Isn't shooting mutineers and cowards in wartime a time honored practice?
> 
> And the more I watch this one the more I think it's all part of the overreaching plan of the cylons.  Everything is playing along perfectly to turn Baltar into a total Cylon tool.  Not that he isn't a tool already.  Maybe this is all destiny though, which is why it's all pulliing together like it is.  January is a long way off.
> 
> What rank is the CAG of Pegasus?  He was treating Apollo like a punk from the start so I'm wondering if he's a higher rank?



NATO armies try to take the mutineer/cowards off the front line for them to get at least an appeals to a higher civilan authority, unless they are given no choise.  

Cain has this option but it help to make it clear that she does not requezinesed any civilan authority.  The fleet is the front line AND the Homefront now from Adma's point of view, very unique situation in the history of modern war.

CAG of Pegasus. Is just me or did I see the actor whom played the Cyclon whom was found out hiding on the BS Galactica in the miniseries??????????


			
				Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I seem to recal an old series ep where a pilot was trapped on a planet with a cylon, which seemed reasonably senient. Weird ep overall, though.



That was the best epsoid of Galactica 1980.  And yes is was senient, probley rebuildt by Starbuck from mainly parts from the commander cyclon.  A cyclon whom must be some what capable of some indepentent thought and action


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## TanisFrey (Sep 27, 2005)

Branding Opportunity said:
			
		

> Maybe it was me, but I thought he was one of the creepiest people on that ship.  Did you see his reaction when they remarked that he was a civilian?  He said something like "Well, these things happen."  It was obvious that he had seen some pretty rough stuff over on the Pegasus and survived by just keeping his head down.
> 
> It would be interesting to find out more of what went on over there.  When you have nothing left to live for other than to hurt the people that hurt you, it can turn the most noble of humans into monsters.



It would not suprise me that he was part of the space dock repair crew just boarding the Pegaus when the attack came.


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## IcyCool (Sep 28, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Having atrocities committed against you does not (IMO) give you the right to commit atrocities in return/revenge.




Quoted for truth.  However, I'd personally add that if a person/being who commits a particular atrocity becomes the victim of another atrocity, I wouldn't feel any pity for them.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 28, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Quoted for truth.  However, I'd personally add that if a person/being who commits a particular atrocity becomes the victim of another atrocity, I wouldn't feel any pity for them.




The saying as goes..._What comes around, goes around._


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## dravot (Sep 28, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> It would not suprise me that he was part of the space dock repair crew just boarding the Pegaus when the attack came.



He said that he was on the Scylla and got picked up.  (I'm assuming that's how it's spelled, as in "Scylla and Charybdis")

There's a lot unspoken there.  He could be a civilian working at the spacedock, but IMO, he's to civiliany for even that - based on his statements.  It's my opinion that he was on a civilian ship which was found by Pegasus and the passengers were pressed into service.


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## Aers (Sep 28, 2005)

dravot said:
			
		

> He said that he was on the Scylla and got picked up.  (I'm assuming that's how it's spelled, as in "Scylla and Charybdis")
> 
> There's a lot unspoken there.  He could be a civilian working at the spacedock, but IMO, he's to civiliany for even that - based on his statements.  It's my opinion that he was on a civilian ship which was found by Pegasus and the passengers were pressed into service.




I got this impression as well - with Cain claiming that she lost over 700 crew in the first few minutes of the attack I can see them gladly impressing any civilian personnel that they came across into service. Just grab the personnel, blow up the civilian ship or trash it for parts, and keep on moving. Don't like it, too bad - they either beat you into submission or worse - looking at the few women on the Pegasus.

It was interesting how Laura looked at Cain when the Admiral talked about the blind jump out and how she kept going - here the new President was, trying to save humanity and organize the civilians to get out of the killing zone and their flagship was running like a scared little girl as far away as they could. True, they had suffered losses much like the Galactica, but you'd think that Cain would have had the balls to come back and at least attempt a rescue of some of the civilians.

The President's got her number - and it ain't pretty. Zarek must be spitting nickels at the idea of this Admiral running the fleet because if Adama doesn't take over the entire Fleet is going to be nothing more than a source of supplies for the Pegasus - both human and material. Cain won't have a problem impressing new crewmen nor taking the best for her people, from what I saw. And they can't have that.

My best bet is that Colonial One is going to jump in between the two Viper attack groups at the last minute, causing them both to peel off and ask for instructions - if Laura is smart she'll work some sort of deal with the implied threat of letting Zarek loose and her and Adama will send Cain off on some sort of death mission or something along the lines of the original series resolution. But they can't have this nutbar in charge of the military aspect of the fleet. Adama seems like a marshmallow compared to Cain and that's scary.


----------



## dravot (Sep 28, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> CAG of Pegasus. Is just me or did I see the actor whom played the Cyclon whom was found out hiding on the BS Galactica in the miniseries??????????



I was wondering something similar myself.  The guy looks familiar.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 28, 2005)

Branding Opportunity said:
			
		

> Memories of the movie "Boxing Helena" came back to me.




That was such a odd movie - I went into it wide-eyed, thinking it was about women boxing... Dear Lord.

In any event, given the circumstances the BSG refugees find themselves in, it is surprising more are not like the crew of the Pegasus in terms of mood and disposition. Further, civilian government would seem to be a luxury. Aside from shooting her XO, I would sooner follow Cain that Adama.


----------



## Endur (Sep 28, 2005)

My prediction for part 2:

The two groups of fighters do not attack each other, instead ...

A massive group of Cylon fighters attack at the beginning of the episode.  The only thing that saves the fleet is the fact that the two battlestars already launched their fighters.

After the battle is over ... angst resumes its place in the storyline.


----------



## Storm Raven (Sep 28, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> In any event, given the circumstances the BSG refugees find themselves in, it is surprising more are not like the crew of the Pegasus in terms of mood and disposition. Further, civilian government would seem to be a luxury. Aside from shooting her XO, I would sooner follow Cain that Adama.




Not a chance. Cain is operating like nothing has happened - trying to run her ship exactly as if the Colonies still existed as they had before the attack. Adama has adapted to the changed circumstances in ways that appear to be condusive to long-term survival (and keeping a civilian government is part of that).

Cain's path is one of revenge and destruction. Adama's is one of survival. I know which one I'd be in favor of.

Any way, my prediction - Roslin will order Cain to stand down and hand over Tyrol and Helo for an impartial trial, phrasing it as a Presidential order. Cain will ignore her, but her pilots and members of her crew (including the XO) will turn on her and remove her from command. Once she is out of the way, a raft of horror stories will emerge concerning the actions of the Pegasus, and they won't be about fighting cylons.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 28, 2005)

Aers said:
			
		

> I got this impression as well - with Cain claiming that she lost over 700 crew in the first few minutes of the attack I can see them gladly impressing any civilian personnel that they came across into service. Just grab the personnel, blow up the civilian ship or trash it for parts, and keep on moving. Don't like it, too bad - they either beat you into submission or worse - looking at the few women on the Pegasus.




I would assume that drafting or pressing civilians into service would be a necessity in the fleet even before Pegasus showed up.  There really isn't there luxury of having people do things that are not directly helping the survival of the fleet.  If enough Marines are killed then civilians are going to have to replace them.  You would use the volunteer angle to hopefully get the good ones that want to serve first, but if you need more bodies they they are going to have to be drafted.  In this situation you don't have much choice.  I can't see the majority of the fleet having any argument with that in thier situation.  Unless they are so out of touch with reality that they are unable to see how humanity is on the razors edge and extreme sacrifice is going to be necessary for the species survival.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Sep 28, 2005)

Didnt the Galactica scour the colonial fleet for raptor pilots in the mini series?


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 28, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Didnt the Galactica scour the colonial fleet for raptor pilots in the mini series?




I'm pretty sure they asked for volunteers.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 28, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Not a chance. Cain is operating like nothing has happened - trying to run her ship exactly as if the Colonies still existed as they had before the attack. Adama has adapted to the changed circumstances in ways that appear to be condusive to long-term survival (and keeping a civilian government is part of that).
> 
> Cain's path is one of revenge and destruction. Adama's is one of survival. I know which one I'd be in favor of.
> 
> Any way, mey prediction - Roslin will order Cain to stand down and hand over Tyrol and Helo for an impartial trial, phrasing it as a Presidential order. Cain will ignore her, but her pilots and members of her crew (including the XO) will turn on her and remove her from command. Once she is out of the way, a raft of horror stories will emerge concerning the actions of the Pegasus, and they won't be about fighting cylons.




Wait, do you honestly think, that Cain will listen as she put it. 'The Secertary of Education?'...

And without a doubt, there are HORROR stories.


----------



## Fast Learner (Sep 28, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Wait, do you honestly think, that Cain will listen as she put it. 'The Secertary of Education?'...



Why did you not highlight the sentence where he said "Cain will ignore her"?


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 28, 2005)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Not as far as I'm concerned. Rendering the infiltrator models incapable of inflicting harm seems to be a value-neutral act to me as well.
> 
> "We're in this for the species, people!"
> —Doogie Howser, SS




When I saw this, I was like, ah...a person of pure reaction, and damn the consquences as they said.

When or if, a situation presents itself, in a roleplaying you might be playing. And a incident of this specific situation happens perchance in play. Don't go harping on the DM for pulling it. You might find these same spoken words said by you, coming back full circle.

There is a point, of how much neutralization can be done, to render an individual to a less-functional capacity. If the means provided, restrict movement, then one point of the goal is achieved.

But going on par, with limb removal, is very extreme, and yes, I do know of some cultures that pratices that. But it does not mean, it should be a accepted thing all around.

Can you imagine, if that scene was more than it looks...the censorship folks would have a field day. Plus some human rights groups as well.

But as a example of treatment, between Sharon and 'Gina' are the showing of two mindsets, in opposite view.

Sharon is still called a thing.

'Gina' was abused as a thing.

*Please keep in mind, this is a just example, no demeaning on my part*

Sharon's suppose direct sincerety in helping with info, has gotten her some aid. They saved her baby.

'Gina', well, I think the pictures alone, states enough, on what happened.

The hurtful part for Sharon *Boomer #2*, that will be, or perphaps never. That the stimga of Adama being shot by her duplicate, will not ease the tension. But on some levels, she is gaining small amounts of respect. Small...

We don't know, the full story of what happened with 'Gina', how she was found, or what she did. And the only way to know anything, she has to survive this outcome with Pegasus next year.

Both are on the bad end, dealing with humans, both are locked up. Both are Cylons. But in the end, the treatment for both, are wide as much the horizon can be seen.

I like the fact, that kindness and the darkness that exist in humanity, are shown in equal scale. But as always, there is somethings, that should not be expected outright, just because we are that much capable of doing it.

But that is a gray area, when it comes to us, anyhow.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 28, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Why did you not highlight the sentence where he said "Cain will ignore her"?




Heh...miss one


----------



## TanisFrey (Sep 28, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> CAG of Pegasus. Is just me or did I see the actor whom played the Cyclon whom was found out hiding on the BS Galactica in the miniseries??????????





			
				dravot said:
			
		

> I was wondering something similar myself.  The guy looks familiar.



He did have a scar by his one eye.  That should not hide him too long if he is a cylon.  And would explane why Starbucks sugestion was droped.  A decent CAG would have droped Starbuck from the mission and used the blackbird in addition or stated that it would be reserved for the next recon mission.


----------



## Wormwood (Sep 28, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Cain's path is one of revenge and destruction. Adama's is one of survival. I know which one I'd be in favor of.




What choice did Cain and her crew have? As far as they knew, humanity has been annihilated. They have no prophecies or promises of Earth. The only thing separating Pegasus from Galactica is hope.

All they have left is their rage and their implacable desire to take as many of the bastards with them to Hell as they can.

Molon Labe.


----------



## Wormwood (Sep 28, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> There is a point, of how much neutralization can be done, to render an individual to a less-functional capacity.




You see people, I see machines. 

Machines that kill. 

End of file.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 28, 2005)

I still say a civilian government and the trappings thereof are luxuries they can no longer afford.


----------



## Pyrex (Sep 28, 2005)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> You see people, I see machines.
> 
> Machines that kill.
> 
> End of file.




That's almost verbatim one of the central questions of the entire series.

Where do you draw the line between  "malfunctioning appliance" <--> "sentient being worthy of respect"?

You and Truth Seeker (vis-a-vis the crews of the Pegasus and Galactica) draw it in different places.


----------



## Wormwood (Sep 28, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> That's almost verbatim one of the central questions of the entire series.
> 
> Where do you draw the line between  "malfunctioning appliance" <--> "sentient being worthy of respect"?
> 
> You and Truth Seeker (vis-a-vis the crews of the Pegasus and Galactica) draw it in different places.




Which is one of the many reasons I so love this show. I can see and understand both points of view.

edit: deleted lest I be misinterpreted.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 28, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> ...sentient being worthy of respect...




What makes you think a normal sentient being is worthy of respect? 

Is it (being is worthy of respect) something innate, a fundamental aspect of the being of all free-willed creatures, so that they possess it simply by existing? 

Or is it (being is worthy of respect) something earned through living well, and therefore springs from the choices someone makes and their ability to carry out and follow through on those choices? 

In either case, can it (being is worthy of respect) be applied to an artificially created group of entities, some of which may not be sentient, that has apparently chosen (in so far as these entities may be described as free willed) as its purpose in existence the persecution and genocidal elimination of another race?

...ya friggin' Cylon lover...


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 28, 2005)

I just want to remind folks that Ron Moore did a podcast for the episode.

They had 15 minutes of extra footage that didn't make it into the broadcast episode. Those 15 minutes are being saved for the DVD release when they will be restored. That means that those 15 minutes won't make it into the next episode either.

The podcast reveals things that are quite important. For instance, in the 15 minutes that were cut Roslyn confronted Cain directly about resupplying the civilian fleet. Cain replies that she doesn't recognize Roslyn as the lawful president of the Colonies and that Cain was going ahead as if she herself were the head of the entire fleet instead of Roslyn.  A short reference was made to this when Roslyn was walking in the corridors of Galactica with Adama and Roslyn complained to Adama that Cain was withholding supplies from the civilian fleet.

The podcast brings a great deal clarity, I heartily recommend it to hear some of what is in the 15 minutes.


----------



## Pyrex (Sep 28, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> ...ya friggin' Cylon lover...




Hey now, I never said where *I* draw the line.   

Hmm...  *tries to get a little philosophical without typing two pages of text*

I tend to think that creatures (*cough* defined in this context as having Int, Wis and Cha scores ) have an intrinsic value higher than objects (which don't have Int, Wis and Cha scores)

Do you feel guilt/sorrow when throwing away a broken toaster?  I don't.

Do you feel bad about yourself for empathizing with the cast of Office Space when they beat the crap out of the printer?  I don't.

Do you feel bad when you see someone kicking a puppy?  I do.

Problem:  Which of those above cases most closely maps to abuse of a Cylon prisoner?


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 28, 2005)

I don't think of most Cylons as much more than toasters. Those that are on human levels are guilty of war crimes. Kill all of them if doing so requires the death of all humans.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 29, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I don't think of most Cylons as much more than toasters.




Me neither.  And I think a lot of the horror people had was due to thier looks and not because a sentient being was being harmed.  If the old style Cylons are sentient too I seriously doubt anyone would care that one was being destroyed or dismembered.   If they needed a circuit board for the DRADIS system and they could only grab it from an old Cylon I don't think there would be issues with them taking it even if it destroyed the unit.  Cylons just need smashin' I tell ya!


----------



## WargamerX (Sep 29, 2005)

Cain and the Pegasus "die" charging Baltar and the other two Cylon Battlestars in the Nebula cloud.  The vipers from Pegasus return to Galactica so that Apollo can have a girlfriend (the other ship's CAG).

Oops...original series....


----------



## Steel_Wind (Sep 29, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Any way, mey prediction - Roslin will order Cain to stand down and hand over Tyrol and Helo for an impartial trial, phrasing it as a Presidential order. Cain will ignore her, but her pilots and members of her crew (including the XO) will turn on her and remove her from command. Once she is out of the way, a raft of horror stories will emerge concerning the actions of the Pegasus, and they won't be about fighting cylons.




Yup. This one is a "me too."


----------



## Steel_Wind (Sep 29, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I just want to remind folks that Ron Moore did a podcast for the episode.
> 
> The podcast reveals things that are quite important. For instance, in the 15 minutes that were cut Roslyn confronted Cain directly about resupplying the civilian fleet. Cain replies that she doesn't recognize Roslyn as the lawful president of the Colonies and that Cain was going ahead as if she herself were the head of the entire fleet instead of Roslyn.  A short reference was made to this when Roslyn was walking in the corridors of Galactica with Adama and Roslyn complained to Adama that Cain was withholding supplies from the civilian fleet.
> 
> The podcast brings a great deal clarity, I heartily recommend it to hear some of what is in the 15 minutes.




You should relisten to the podcast. That segment was cut from the script - not from the broadcast.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Sep 29, 2005)

WargamerX said:
			
		

> Cain and the Pegasus "die" charging Baltar and the other two Cylon Battlestars in the Nebula cloud.  The vipers from Pegasus return to Galactica so that Apollo can have a girlfriend (the other ship's CAG).
> 
> Oops...original series....




I wonder, Obviously The Battlestar of today is inpsired and using "ideas" loosly from the previous show.

Do you think that this meeting with "gina" is the setup for Baltar leaving the Galactica and eventually joining the cylons?


----------



## Omand (Sep 29, 2005)

Hello,

I have not yet seen any of Season 2, but have been following bits and pieces of the threads around the series.  I suspect there is a cyclon on Pegasus not yet discovered (there has to be, right?), but who it is is unknown.

As for the Pegasus CAG, the IMDB listing for the Pegasus episode does not name Callum Keith Rennie as being in the episode; he played Leoben (Cylon who fought Adama at Ragnor) in the Mini-Series.

Cheers


----------



## Omand (Sep 29, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I wonder, Obviously The Battlestar of today is inpsired and using "ideas" loosly from the previous show.
> 
> Do you think that this meeting with "gina" is the setup for Baltar leaving the Galactica and eventually joining the cylons?




Hmmm ...

I actually think that, unlike the original series, in this series we will actually see all of the lead up of Baltar's great betrayal of humanity.  In the original he was pretty one dimensional in terms of why he switched sides; he wanted power and dominion over his own colony.  In fact, he was supposed to die in the original movie pilot, but the transition to a series necessitated a change (IMDB is your friend).

Cheers


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Sep 29, 2005)

See that original plot doesnt work either.

He's the vice president of the colonies (err, the colonial fleet). He already HAS "power". However symbolic it would be. So it would have to be a diffrent reason for him to intentionally betray humanity.


----------



## Omand (Sep 29, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> See that original plot doesnt work either.
> 
> He's the vice president of the colonies (err, the colonial fleet). He already HAS "power". However symbolic it would be. So it would have to be a diffrent reason for him to intentionally betray humanity.




Oh, I totally agree.  Baltar already has betrayed the Colonies/Fleet in this new version, just not on the same scale as the original.  I think we are building up to something almost as big (or as big) as the original, however.

Only time will tell, of course.

Cheers


----------



## TanisFrey (Sep 29, 2005)

Omand said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I have not yet seen any of Season 2, but have been following bits and pieces of the threads around the series.  I suspect there is a cyclon on Pegasus not yet discovered (there has to be, right?), but who it is is unknown.
> 
> ...



He is the wrong cyclon I was talking about before.  I was talking about Actor Matthew Bennett whom played Aaron Doral in the miniseries.  This cyclon was left on the supply depo when the fleet left.  And we saw on Caprica with #6 and Boomer looking over Helo during season 1.  The IMDB does not have a listing for the Pegasus CAG.  So, still a bit of a question?


----------



## Omand (Sep 29, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> He is the wrong cyclon I was talking about before.  I was talking about Actor Matthew Bennett whom played Aaron Doral in the miniseries.  This cyclon was left on the supply depo when the fleet left.  And we saw on Caprica with #6 and Boomer looking over Helo during season 1.  The IMDB does not have a listing for the Pegasus CAG.  So, still a bit of a question?




You may be correct, as I have not seen the episode (and will not for a few more months).  Could not the IMBD lsitings for the various officers not name the Pegasus CAG as Pegasus CAG though?

I also think it highly unlikely that Bennett would have his name left off the credits.  Too many people know his face on the series as the Doral model cylon.

Then again, I could be wrong.

Cheers


----------



## TanisFrey (Sep 29, 2005)

Omand said:
			
		

> You may be correct, as I have not seen the episode (and will not for a few more months).  Could not the IMBD lsitings for the various officers not name the Pegasus CAG as Pegasus CAG though?



SciFi.com write up states the Pegasus CAG as Capt. Cole "Stinger" Taylor.

Capt. Cole "Stinger" Taylor is not listed on IMCB.

Is IMCB not totaly updated yet or are the producers trying to cloud whether or not issue of Capt. Cole "Stinger" Taylor, the Pegasus's CAG, being a cyclon?


----------



## Omand (Sep 29, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> SciFi.com write up states the Pegasus CAG as Capt. Cole "Stinger" Taylor.
> 
> Capt. Cole "Stinger" Taylor is not listed on IMCB.
> 
> Is IMCB not totaly updated yet or are the producers trying to cloud whether or not issue of Capt. Cole "Stinger" Taylor, the Pegasus's CAG, being a cyclon?




IMDB might not be totally updated.  They do list one actor as being in the episode without naming his character, however.

Of course, the producers playing with us could also be the case.

Cheers


----------



## wingsandsword (Sep 29, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I still say a civilian government and the trappings thereof are luxuries they can no longer afford.



Actually, I think "Pegasus" drives home just how much the fleet needs its civilian government, and what it would be like without it.

The Battlestar Pegasus is the exact path Adama almost went down, if not for Roslin convincing him that the war was over.  Back in the miniseries Adama wanted to go back and keep fighting the war.  Pegasus has got "tunnel vision" as its been described, it is locked only on the idea of destroying the Cylons, not perpetuating the human race, not finding a new home.  Cain is still trying to "win" the war, with one ship against an entire race, and odds like that only work in video games.

If it hadn't found Galactica, the Pegasus would have eventually been destroyed by the Cylons (or their self-destructive behavior), it would slowly be run out of personell, vipers, armaments, and eventually worn down.  The Civilian government and presence with Galactica is what keeps them realizing what they are fighting for, and why they are fighting.  

The Pegasus is locked in a vengeance mindset, still fighting a war they lost months before, because all they had to live for is fighting.  The civilian government reminds the Galactica that their first priority is to the survival of the human race, not pursing a lost war.  Without a civilian government, we saw what happened to Galactica, and how very quickly it turned bloody and everything fell apart.

If not for the Civilian government, Galactica would still be fighting to the death back in the colonies and they would never have unlocked Athena's Tomb and found the path to Earth.  Without the Civilian government, the human race would have died out to the Cylons.


----------



## DM_Matt (Sep 29, 2005)

One of the reasons people may sympathize with the human form cylons is that the scientific explanation of what they are is total crap.  They are "biomechanical" and indistinguishable from humans, which seems to mean that the definition of "biomechanical" in this case is "they are human, except for the fact that they are robots."  

I have trouble wrapping my head around that.  Sure, they seem to be able to interface with computers (how the hell doesnt this make them biologically different in significant ways), and have some form of communications/consciousness reimplantation, but these abilities seem to just be add-ons that they dont really scientifically explain.

The jury is still out as to wether or not they are individual entities or not, and that it a key question regarding their value. 

Also, BTW, some forms of torture, especially rape, dehumanize the torturer, regardless of the value or rights of the victim.  It is wrong to rape a SIMULATED human and enjoy it.


----------



## Aers (Sep 29, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Actually, I think "Pegasus" drives home just how much the fleet needs its civilian government, and what it would be like without it.
> 
> The Battlestar Pegasus is the exact path Adama almost went down, if not for Roslin convincing him that the war was over.  Back in the miniseries Adama wanted to go back and keep fighting the war.  Pegasus has got "tunnel vision" as its been described, it is locked only on the idea of destroying the Cylons, not perpetuating the human race, not finding a new home.  Cain is still trying to "win" the war, with one ship against an entire race, and odds like that only work in video games.
> 
> ...




exactly - unless the Pegasus keeps running across civilian ships and cannibalizing them and impressing their crews into their ranks, it's doomed to failure at some point - there's just too many Cylons out there for them to win. It's not even a viable option at this point.

Roslyn and Adama have a bigger picture view of the situation - save humanity and that means keeping the civilians out of harm's way and keep moving, which means that they're NOT rushing to engage the Cylon fleet. Pegasus has been darned lucky up to this point that they've been able to avoid running into a few Basestars that would take them out pretty darned fast. They're rushing to their own deaths most of the time, when you think about it.

and if Cain were any sort of Flag Officer she wouldn't hesitate to change her mission when confronted with over forty thousand humans who need help and protection - why she's continuing to send out fighters and plan battles when there's a Fleet of civilians needing their help is obvious proof of her insanity. She's not even considering survival here, she's rushing them all to their eventual death. 

her refusal to recognize the civilian government isn't surprising - she plans on using not only Galactica but the entire Fleet to keep Pegasus going. It wasn't any big surprise that she poached Apollo and Starbuck, the G's best pilots, right off the top. She sees them as only a resource to be exploited and used. Adama wouldn't have ever started yanking civilians off of a Fleet vessel and throwing them into uniform except under Very Dire Circumstances, which he hasn't seen yet despite their lack of pilots and obvious crew shortages.

Cain is a liability. Her crew might be salvagable but I think a lot of them will follow her down into the maw of Cylon Hell if only to avoid taking back on that cloak of humanity that the civilian fleet reminds them of.


----------



## Storm Raven (Sep 29, 2005)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> What choice did Cain and her crew have? As far as they knew, humanity has been annihilated. They have no prophecies or promises of Earth. The only thing separating Pegasus from Galactica is hope.
> 
> All they have left is their rage and their implacable desire to take as many of the bastards with them to Hell as they can.




And now they have something different available. And Cain hasn't changed her position on anything. That, from my perspective, is the main reason members of her crew will revolt against her - they will see the possibility of hope for survival that she apparently ignores.

I think that's why the "Laura" got highlighted as much as it did with respect to the Pegasus aeronautical engineer: building a _new_ ship is a statement of hope, something the crew of the Galactica did, but we can assume the crew of the Pegasus did not. Like I said, Cain's is a path of revenge and destruction, and ultimately hopelessness. Adama's is a path of survival, and ultimately hope. Cain is fighting against something (the Cylons), Adama is fighting for something (the preservation of the civilian fleet). If you were a crew-member of the Pegasus, which would seem more appealing to you?


----------



## dravot (Sep 29, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And now they have something different available. And Cain hasn't changed her position on anything. That, from my perspective, is the main reason members of her crew will revolt against her - they will see the possibility of hope for survival that she apparently ignores.
> 
> I think that's why the "Laura" got highlighted as much as it did with respect to the Pegasus aeronautical engineer: building a _new_ ship is a statement of hope, something the crew of the Galactica did, but we can assume the crew of the Pegasus did not. Like I said, Cain's is a path of revenge and destruction, and ultimately hopelessness. Adama's is a path of survival, and ultimately hope. Cain is fighting against something (the Cylons), Adama is fighting for something (the preservation of the civilian fleet). If you were a crew-member of the Pegasus, which would seem more appealing to you?



I guess it would depend on just how bitter, cynical and burned out I was when I made the choice - and that's going to be the dividing line when Pegasus crew members take sides.


----------



## Jarrod (Sep 29, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I don't think of most Cylons as much more than toasters. Those that are on human levels are guilty of war crimes. Kill all of them if doing so requires the death of all humans.




They are guilty of war crimes, and as such deserve a fair trial whenever they are captured. 

The danger is not in killing Cylons; the danger is in killing things that look human. We are _visual_ creatures, and it's easy to blur the line between "Cylon" and "that woman-looking thing over there". 

I can toss out pithy sayings - "The ends don't justify the means", "when you act like the enemy, you become the enemy". They're pithy, but true. The object is to survive while keeping the moral/ethical/behavioral upper hand. Otherwise you get what I expected the episode to turn into: "We're from the Pegasus, we're better, and we can do whatever we want to both the Galactica crewmen and civilians because we're better". Classic pack behavior. And, from the comments of the drunk Pegasus crewmembers, it was about to come to that if the Sharon scene hadn't intervened.


----------



## TanisFrey (Sep 29, 2005)

Jarrod said:
			
		

> They are guilty of war crimes, and as such deserve a fair trial whenever they are captured.
> 
> The danger is not in killing Cylons; the danger is in killing things that look human. We are _visual_ creatures, and it's easy to blur the line between "Cylon" and "that woman-looking thing over there".
> 
> I can toss out pithy sayings - "The ends don't justify the means", "when you act like the enemy, you become the enemy". They're pithy, but true. The object is to survive while keeping the moral/ethical/behavioral upper hand. Otherwise you get what I expected the episode to turn into: "We're from the Pegasus, we're better, and we can do whatever we want to both the Galactica crewmen and civilians because we're better". Classic pack behavior. And, from the comments of the drunk Pegasus crewmembers, it was about to come to that if the Sharon scene hadn't intervened.



Tye did comment to Adama that they should ask for the Pegasus log books and Adama laphed it off knowing that it would not fly.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 29, 2005)

Aers said:
			
		

> Adama wouldn't have ever started yanking civilians off of a Fleet vessel and throwing them into uniform except under Very Dire Circumstances, which he hasn't seen yet despite their lack of pilots and obvious crew shortages.




They are in a non-stop Very Dire Circumstance.  People would have to be pressed into service to maintain fighting strength to protect the fleet and the last of humanity.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Sep 29, 2005)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> Also, BTW, some forms of torture, especially rape, dehumanize the torturer, regardless of the value or rights of the victim.  It is wrong to rape a SIMULATED human and enjoy it.



I've been trying to articulate a thought similar to this. My feeling is that if what they have done to pega-six "worked" then it was also objectivly wrong. Any being capableof being tortured has the right not to be. Any being capable of being humiliated has the right not to be.

But even if Pega-six was for whatever reason faking a response to the treatment, the desire to torture, humiliate or rape is a problem in and of itself, and indicates a pathology in the Pegasus crew. Is it wrong to torture a toaster? If you think the toaster is capable of being tortured, if you believe that you are humiliating it, it is pathological to try. The Pegasus crew is broken, regardless of whether they have a "real" victim or not.


----------



## Rykion (Sep 29, 2005)

Jarrod said:
			
		

> They are guilty of war crimes, and as such deserve a fair trial whenever they are captured.




If they start picking up more Cylons that weren't infiltrators in their fleet, such as Boomer 2, I agree, but there is no reason not to eliminate any Cylon found posing as human on a ship of the fleet.  Their only possible reasons for being there are sabotage or to gather intelligence for the Cylon fleet.  It is still a battle for survival for the Colonials.  They do not have the luxury of letting an infiltrator survive long enough to accomplish its mission.


----------



## Storm Raven (Sep 29, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> They are in a non-stop Very Dire Circumstance.  People would have to be pressed into service to maintain fighting strength to protect the fleet and the last of humanity.




Ah, but pillaging the rest of the fleet in order to beef up Galactica would strip valuable personnel from other functions - functions that Adama knows are necessary to keep Galactica going.

Galactica needs the civilian fleet to function over the long term, and Adama knows it.


----------



## Aers (Sep 29, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Ah, but pillaging the rest of the fleet in order to beef up Galactica would strip valuable personnel from other functions - functions that Adama knows are necessary to keep Galactica going.
> 
> Galactica needs the civilian fleet to function over the long term, and Adama knows it.




exactly - I don't think the rest of the civilians are lounging around in deck chairs enjoying the view - they're probably working in some capacity to keep the fleet supplied with food, supplies, etc. - things that you can't have on a Battlestar. Water purification, greenhouse maintenance... there's just not enough room on Galactica and it wasn't ever meant to be self-sufficient, after all. Let's just start with child care, education for the children - the next generation that will have to maintain the ships, depending on the time they spend travelling... I don't think Cain can think past the next military attack and her crew have been on hard rations for months!

and in the long run it's been proven that having a volunteer military is better than a drafted one - I don't doubt that Galactica's had it's share of new recruits from the civilians; men and women who want to join the Colonial Fleet - NOT Cain's Rape and Pillage Party!


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 29, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Ah, but pillaging the rest of the fleet in order to beef up Galactica would strip valuable personnel from other functions - functions that Adama knows are necessary to keep Galactica going.
> 
> Galactica needs the civilian fleet to function over the long term, and Adama knows it.




Of course.  I'm just saying that the idea of drafting those who aren't doing essential tasks isn't wrong or anything, it's going to be necessary eventually.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 29, 2005)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> That's almost verbatim one of the central questions of the entire series.
> 
> Where do you draw the line between  "malfunctioning appliance" <--> "sentient being worthy of respect"?
> 
> You and Truth Seeker (vis-a-vis the crews of the Pegasus and Galactica) draw it in different places.




The yin & yang principle.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 29, 2005)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Which is one of the many reasons I so love this show. I can see and understand both points of view.
> 
> edit: deleted lest I be misinterpreted.




Yupe...but still, the near same or more equal value treatment, still rubs me.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Sep 29, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> Tye did comment to Adama that they should ask for the Pegasus log books and Adama laphed it off knowing that it would not fly.




Adama's Reaction:*grunt* "Won't that be nice..." Like a fly trying to dodge a spider web.


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## Fast Learner (Sep 29, 2005)

Having just rewatched the episode, there's no way the Pegasus CAG is one of the already-identified Cylons. He doesn't even look similar, to me.


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## Kobold Avenger (Sep 29, 2005)

It couldn't be Leoban or Aaron Doral, because the entire fleet knows what they look like, after the press conference that Roslyn gave revealling that Cylons looked human.


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## Phaedrus (Sep 29, 2005)

How do we _know _ that Cain shot her XO? Her new XO said "Just kidding", and just because Tigh believes it doesn't mean it happened... right?  Or is there other evidence I'm ignoring?  (Like the fact that Cain is cold enough that the story sounds plausible)

And what about Lucy Lawless? What's in store for her? Do we know if she's returning to the show?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 29, 2005)

Phaedrus said:
			
		

> How do we _know _ that Cain shot her XO? Her new XO said "Just kidding", and just because Tigh believes it doesn't mean it happened... right?  Or is there other evidence I'm ignoring?  (Like the fact that Cain is cold enough that the story sounds plausible)
> 
> And what about Lucy Lawless? What's in store for her? Do we know if she's returning to the show?



 The podcast says that she did, in fact, shoot the XO...so we know from that. 

And Lucy Lawless will be back later in the season.


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## Staffan (Sep 30, 2005)

Aers said:
			
		

> Adama wouldn't have ever started yanking civilians off of a Fleet vessel and throwing them into uniform except under Very Dire Circumstances, which he hasn't seen yet despite their lack of pilots and obvious crew shortages.



I think there was a 1st season episode where they started recruiting Viper pilots from the fleet, and having Starbuck train them. But I don't think that was drafting, per se, more like "Hey, we need more pilots, wanna join?"


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 30, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> I think there was a 1st season episode where they started recruiting Viper pilots from the fleet, and having Starbuck train them. But I don't think that was drafting, per se, more like "Hey, we need more pilots, wanna join?"



Yupe that is correct.


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## Kobold Avenger (Sep 30, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> I think there was a 1st season episode where they started recruiting Viper pilots from the fleet, and having Starbuck train them. But I don't think that was drafting, per se, more like "Hey, we need more pilots, wanna join?"



That was where Kat and Hotdog came from, they were both originally civillians.


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## Rykion (Sep 30, 2005)

Speaking of Hotdog, I'm waiting for the episode where Commander Adama explains to Apollo he had a third son.  I can imagine him saying "you spent all that time working with Hotdog and you didn't notice he looks more like me than you do?"


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 30, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> Speaking of Hotdog, I'm waiting for the episode where Commander Adama explains to Apollo he had a third son.  I can imagine him saying "you spent all that time working with Hotdog and you didn't notice he looks more like me than you do?"





A rumor, no?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 30, 2005)

About Boomer not defending herself: 
Remeber that Gina killed 7 of the interrogaters men - and where it got her...

Violence doesn´t help, especially when you're desperately trying to keep yourself and your unborn child alive while people are holding guns at you... Any form of agressive defense would have probably killed her child, maybe even Boomer herself. (Not that a rape itself isn't a risk, too...)


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## Rykion (Sep 30, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> A rumor, no?




Not a rumor in the series.  Just the fact that Bodie Olmos who plays Hotdog is Edward James Olmos's son, and resembles his father more than Jamie Bamber does.


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## mmu1 (Sep 30, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> About Boomer not defending herself:
> Remeber that Gina killed 7 of the interrogaters men - and where it got her...
> 
> Violence doesn´t help, especially when you're desperately trying to keep yourself and your unborn child alive while people are holding guns at you... Any form of agressive defense would have probably killed her child, maybe even Boomer herself. (Not that a rape itself isn't a risk, too...)




1. We don't even know in which circumstances "Gina" killed seven people, or that she killed them all at once.

2. Just because you're strong and skilled enough to kill a man with your bare hands doesn't mean that you'll be able to do it when three strong men surprise you and restrain you.

3. The "Gina" model is obviously much taller and larger than the "Boomer" model, as well as more aggressive.

4. We don't know how much of the "human" cylons' strength is "hardware" and how much is "software". You could do pretty "superhuman" things if you could ignore pain and get an adrenaline boost on demand without being significantly different physiologically. Maybe the "Boomer" models we've seen so far, that were designed to pass for humans for extended periods of time, are just wired differently.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 30, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> Not a rumor in the series.  Just the fact that Bodie Olmos who plays Hotdog is Edward James Olmos's son, and resembles his father more than Jamie Bamber does.



OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!


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## Atridis (Sep 30, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> 4. We don't know how much of the "human" cylons' strength is "hardware" and how much is "software".



Yes, the Boomers we've seen have clearly been intended to act human in every way, more so than some of the other models. Do we even know that she has superhuman strength?


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## Aers (Sep 30, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> About Boomer not defending herself:
> Remeber that Gina killed 7 of the interrogaters men - and where it got her...
> 
> Violence doesn´t help, especially when you're desperately trying to keep yourself and your unborn child alive while people are holding guns at you... Any form of agressive defense would have probably killed her child, maybe even Boomer herself. (Not that a rape itself isn't a risk, too...)




and yet the fact that the "interrogator" had no problem with raping a pregnant woman (albeit a toaster or not) shows how on the Pegasus it's all about who has the power.

IF this were a competent officer (and let's assume he was briefed on Boomer's condition) he'd be threatening her unborn child, not resorting to sexual assault on their first meeting. He tosses the pictures of the unknown ship at her within a few minutes and calls on his troops to help him assault her. Hardly the final resort of a tired and exhausted interrogator desperate to get vital intel for his men.

and given the attitude of the Pegasus deck crew in the drinking area about women, I daresay that if/when the mutiny happens that there'll be a LOT of grateful women and a lot of horrific stories coming out about sexual assault and worse. The fact that the deck crew saw nothing wrong with discussing this graphically in front of Galactica's female members points out a lack of morals that's frightening. I'd worry if I were a woman about to be transferred to Pegasus - oh, yeah.


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## DonTadow (Sep 30, 2005)

Aers said:
			
		

> and yet the fact that the "interrogator" had no problem with raping a pregnant woman (albeit a toaster or not) shows how on the Pegasus it's all about who has the power.
> 
> IF this were a competent officer (and let's assume he was briefed on Boomer's condition) he'd be threatening her unborn child, not resorting to sexual assault on their first meeting. He tosses the pictures of the unknown ship at her within a few minutes and calls on his troops to help him assault her. Hardly the final resort of a tired and exhausted interrogator desperate to get vital intel for his men.
> 
> and given the attitude of the Pegasus deck crew in the drinking area about women, I daresay that if/when the mutiny happens that there'll be a LOT of grateful women and a lot of horrific stories coming out about sexual assault and worse. The fact that the deck crew saw nothing wrong with discussing this graphically in front of Galactica's female members points out a lack of morals that's frightening. I'd worry if I were a woman about to be transferred to Pegasus - oh, yeah.




My GF watched the show and had a blunt and other perspective of the pegasus assault.  "The pegasus crew doesnt see the cylons more as robot blow up dolls".   This made me rethink how harshly I've been dondoning the pegasus crew.  Rape is always a vile act, but they don't see it as rape.  They see it as taking advantage of nothing more than a machine.  If I'm correct, didn't the cylons early design use to be to serve mankind before they took on sentience?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 30, 2005)

I agree.  At least so far that's how I see it.  Do you think Admiral Cain, a woman, is going to have the men raping and assaulting the female crew?  I really doubt it, and if that is the case I think it will be very poor writing. 

I don't think the crew of Pegasus view Boomer or Gina as much more than this thing http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4714135.stm


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 30, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I agree.  At least so far that's how I see it.  Do you think Admiral Cain, a woman, is going to have the men raping and assaulting the female crew?  I really doubt it, and if that is the case I think it will be very poor writing.
> 
> I don't think the crew of Pegasus view Boomer or Gina as much more than this thing http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4714135.stm




Good find!!!

Oh man...there is a bit of truth, in all that fiction.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 30, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I agree.  At least so far that's how I see it.  Do you think Admiral Cain, a woman, is going to have the men raping and assaulting the female crew?  I really doubt it, and if that is the case I think it will be very poor writing.



you might be suprized at how some female 'higher-ups' can lose empathy for rank and file women, especially if they have achieved their goals by becoming "one of the guys" consiously or not. If the female crew in question were support staff or impressed civilians (not the warrior caste as it were) I would be completely unsuprized to see her turn a blind eye to "her men's" actions. Pack behaviour knows no gender.

Im not predicting either way, but I wouldn't consider it bad writing at all.


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## Atridis (Sep 30, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4714135.stm



That's kinda spooky...


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## Storm Raven (Sep 30, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> My GF watched the show and had a blunt and other perspective of the pegasus assault.  "The pegasus crew doesnt see the cylons more as robot blow up dolls".   This made me rethink how harshly I've been dondoning the pegasus crew.  Rape is always a vile act, but they don't see it as rape.  They see it as taking advantage of nothing more than a machine.  If I'm correct, didn't the cylons early design use to be to serve mankind before they took on sentience?




Here's a question though - if the Pegasus crew views them as nothing more than clever machines, what is the point in torturing them? I don't torture my oven when it burns the roast chicken, it makes no sense. If the "humlons" are seen as nothing more than machines, why do they think torture and acts that would be degrading if performed on a human will work to begin with?


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## Atridis (Sep 30, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Here's a question though - if the Pegasus crew views them as nothing more than clever machines, what is the point in torturing them? I don't torture my oven when it burns the roast chicken, it makes no sense. If the "humlons" are seen as nothing more than machines, why do they think torture and acts that would be degrading if performed on a human will work to begin with?



I think it says a lot about how f'ed up the Pegasus crew are (or at least many of those we've met). Think about it this way: If your oven actually reacted to being tortured in a convincingly human-like way, would that make you more or less inclined to torture it?


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## Storm Raven (Sep 30, 2005)

Atridis said:
			
		

> I think it says a lot about how f'ed up the Pegasus crew are (or at least many of those we've met). Think about it this way: If your oven actually reacted to being tortured in a convincingly human-like way, would that make you more or less inclined to torture it?




Maybe more, but then again, that would be humanizing it (or, to use the fancier term, anthromophizing it). That seems to run counter to the idea that the Pegasus crew sees the humlons as little more than "blow up sex dolls".


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## Rykion (Sep 30, 2005)

Atridis said:
			
		

> Think about it this way: If your oven actually reacted to being tortured in a convincingly human-like way, would that make you more or less inclined to torture it?




If my oven was an  accomplice to the genocide of millions or billions of people, I would be sure to torture it if it felt pain.  I can't stand murderous appliances.   It might be different if it were also sentient, but even Cylon sentience is debatable.

Edit:  I am in no way endorsing the actions of the crew of the Pegasus.  I find their actions repugnant.


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## TanisFrey (Sep 30, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Having just rewatched the episode, there's no way the Pegasus CAG is one of the already-identified Cylons. He doesn't even look similar, to me.



I already deleted the epsoid, so all I can say is what I thought it was at the time.  I did think that he looked like and sounded like Doral.  I will have to be wait for a reairing to be shure.


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## Phaedrus (Sep 30, 2005)

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
     --Jack Handy


I never thought a Deep Thought by Jack Handy would ever approach relevance in a real conversation. Maybe it still hasn't...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 1, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Maybe more, but then again, that would be humanizing it (or, to use the fancier term, anthromophizing it). That seems to run counter to the idea that the Pegasus crew sees the humlons as little more than "blow up sex dolls".



We could simply see their behaviour as irratonal and not entirely sane. In that case, it is quite possible that they manage to accept these two conflicting views on Cylons, just to suite their own feeling of moral superiority and to justify their behaviour. 
They could also see torture as a way to push buttons on a complicated machine, not "real" torture...


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 1, 2005)

Atridis said:
			
		

> Yes, the Boomers we've seen have clearly been intended to act human in every way, more so than some of the other models. Do we even know that she has superhuman strength?




It's somewhat implied when they're all down on Kobol, and she shoves Apollo off of her rather roughly after a brief struggle.


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## Altalazar (Oct 2, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Here's a question though - if the Pegasus crew views them as nothing more than clever machines, what is the point in torturing them? I don't torture my oven when it burns the roast chicken, it makes no sense. If the "humlons" are seen as nothing more than machines, why do they think torture and acts that would be degrading if performed on a human will work to begin with?




Not to make light of this, but have you seen Office Space?  The scene where they take the crappy printer that always jams out into a field and beat the crap out of it with baseball bats?  I've had to deal with really crappy copy machines in various offices and I could totally identify with that.  So even if they see them as just machines, torture still makes sense.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 2, 2005)

Did anyone notice this wasn't the first attempted rape in Battlestar Galactica? _Bastille Day_, anyone?

Both attempts happened because the rapist wanted to control the victim, and both ended with the death of the perpetrator. I guess both aspects reflect the authors' opinion on rape...

What I found interesting was that Dee said to Billy that they have been trained in such situations - I wonder if rape was a common "method" in Colonial military history (especially before they fought united against the Cylons).


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## Ghostwind (Dec 13, 2005)

Just watched the episode this morning (finally). Very interesting on many levels to say the least.

Cain is clearly over the edge. All she has is the Pegasus and she will do anything to make sure it remains hers. Military authority is all she knows and is all she will recognize. When the Pegasus' story is unfolded in future epoisodes, I won't be the least bit suprised to hear that any civilian ship encountered by Cain was told, "You are now drafted in the Colonial Fleet. You will be taken aboard the Pegasus and assigned a duty based on your job skills." Those that refused were destroyed along with the civilian ship. Cain clearly rules through fear and the crew follows her because her leadership (not matter how tyrannical) has kept them alive.

Here's an interesting prediction:
Roslin orders Cain to stand down. Cain openly refuses acknowlegement of Roslin's authority and orders an attack on Colonial One. Other civilian ships in the fleet move to protect C-1 and at least one is destroyed by the Pegasus as a result. This action turns the fleet against the Pegasus and Cain. Cain's own command crew hesitates too long when Cain orders them to attack Galactica and C-1 and destroy any ships that get in the way. She draws her sidearm and shoots one or more officers. Her X-O shoots her literally shocking her system into recognizing what she has done. She recants her orders moments before killing herself.

In the aftermath, Adama is promoted to Admiral. Starbuck is now CAG of Pegasus. Pegasus-six is moved to Baltar's care aboard Galactica where she slowly begins to manipulate him into committing the final act of treason against the human race exposing himself in the process as a Cylon (how else would Six be communicating with him this whole time?).

Needless to say, I'll be watching the episodes as soon as I can after they've aired.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 13, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Just watched the episode this morning (finally). Very interesting on many levels to say the least.
> 
> Cain is clearly over the edge. All she has is the Pegasus and she will do anything to make sure it remains hers. Military authority is all she knows and is all she will recognize. When the Pegasus' story is unfolded in future epoisodes, I won't be the least bit suprised to hear that any civilian ship encountered by Cain was told, "You are now drafted in the Colonial Fleet. You will be taken aboard the Pegasus and assigned a duty based on your job skills." Those that refused were destroyed along with the civilian ship. Cain clearly rules through fear and the crew follows her because her leadership (not matter how tyrannical) has kept them alive.
> 
> ...





Have you read spoiler sites? 



Spoiler



You hit the nail on the head with some of these things. Adama IS promoted to admiral and Starbuck IS promoted to Pegasus CAG!


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## Ghostwind (Dec 14, 2005)

Just what is on this thread. Don't have time to go seeking everything out for spoilers.


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## wingsandsword (Dec 14, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Just what is on this thread. Don't have time to go seeking everything out for spoilers.




If, big if, you want some, here is the general synopsis of Ressurection Ship (the two-parter conclusion, essentially making Pegasus a 3-parter):

[sblock]Right as Galactica and Pegasus are about to engage each other, Starbuck returns from her recon flight in the Blackbird.  The mysterious Cylon supership is a "Ressurection Ship" (the meaning is a little unclear, but is implied to have something to do with how they download their minds into new bodies).  Adama and Cain agree to a temporary truce to fight the Cylon fleet together, and the two battlestars go to engage the Cylon fleet in a huge battle.

We learn along the way that the Pegasus was finding surviving civilian ships, drafting those with military skills, stripping the ships for supplies and parts, then abandoning the hulks to die with the civilians Cain decided weren't worth saving.  Roslin is understandably shocked, since this is also Cains ultimate plan for Galactica's civilian fleet.

Eventually, Pegasus-six manages to shoot and kill Cain, presumably as revenge for how she was treated.  After the Colonial victory, the Pegasus stays with the fleet, and Jack Fisk (the current Pegasus XO), is promoted by Roslin to Commander, with Adama promoted to Admiral.

Also, you mentioned the idea of Roslin giving Cain the order to stand down, there was a cut subplot from Pegasus, mentioned in the podcast, that was only hinted at in the aired version: Cain doesn't recognize Roslin as the legitimate president, she sees the real civilian government as gone and thus herself as the de-facto leader, she doesn't recognize orders from Roslin.  Note how she mentions that Cain won't return her calls.  Roslin's ultimate legal authority to issue military orders was established in the miniseries, when Apollo recognizes Roslin's orders as superior to Adama's, and it's not until the end they come to a personal agreement to share power, so she decides not to exercise her legal powers over the military (admitting she was somewhat afraid of Adama staging a military coup if she didn't).[/sblock]


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