# Designing Elric of Melnibone



## Garthanos (Aug 26, 2009)

I like designing characters from fiction... one thing I like especially are those with vivid fighting styles and D&D does this better than ever before and better than any other RPG I have seen.(but sometimes its not easy)
and invoking the imaginations of the forum can be fun too.

Here is a verbose description with some interpretations

*Elric of Melnibone'*

Emperor of a dying people, tragic Summoner Wizard/Warlock sickly and dependent on drugs and a weapon (aquired at the culmination of his first major quest) whose might suplements his need for energy in battle. ... a blade which is effectively his pact demon... feeding him at minimum temporary hit points when his enemies (and occasionally allies) died under its bite...(Any real hit might have provided some as well battlerager vigor ? or a magic item critical hit effect?)

Elric during his first adventure where in his cousin tried to usurp his throne discovered that you could do big magics in desperate circumstances if you were gifted and had the need.... essentially he learned how to do encounter and dailies when his people seems to have forgotten this and used almost exclusively Ritual magics. Elric is his peoples most learned Sorceror... Arcanist and a Ritual Caster and Alchemist/herbalist (though the later he uses mostly to shore up his health).

He invoked his first ever daily (or maybe a weekly) with water breathing as a minor side effect and did a teleport which allowed him to traverse the breadth of a good sized bay (probably the entire ocean if he had wanted... by inter-planar travel through the dimens of water itself. The context of it could have also been interpretted as him being knocked to zero hitpoints and being able to invoke a ritual without components or normal casting time.... but it also reads a little like wow dailies/encounters are really doable.

Elric definitely feels the rush of battle vigor but he is definitely not using classic constitution to fuel it but it is a healthier thing than what his blade gives him. (mayhaps charisma - spirit based? or just cross classed barbarian effect)

Elric tends to rush the fight trying to get it over with quickly...his lack of constitution for a longer fight fades (weapon and drugs taking turns) but his brash moves seem to help his allies find openings against there joint enemies.

His at-will fighting style is definitely about big blades and feels largely like a great weapon fighter trained in heavy armor (even plate) but later in his career he occasionally seems to abandon heavy armor trusting in his reflexes. In spite of his basic moves being drawn seemingly directly out of the fighters hand bag with a touch of Warlords brash at will power.

His dailies are either barbarian berserk style rages... and considered something done by his demon blade or are quickened summonings ... Arioch requiring a number of kills before he deigns to answer but considering the proper summonings are Ritual magics... this is very quick.

Arioch manifesting as a mobile Acid cloud seems like one nasty special effect... something similar is conjured by his cousin yrkoon the second greatest sorceror but one willing to use his power a lot.

Elrics uses librams but primarly for rituals and yes focuses many of his magics through sacreficial attacks with that black blade but one wonders if Arioch didnt like responding because he had to tug of war with the blade over the souls of the slain even with elric devoting the kills in Ariochs name.

Some of his sorcerous effects conjuring a hoard of fire elemental minions and making it so buckets of water will not be useful tools against them because the water clings to the bucket. (perhaps that is a special effect for them being water resistant ;-)

Elric gains progressively better drugs over the course of his career and actually becomes less dependent on the weapon... periodically earns some small spats of peace.

During his career he pairs up with Strikers ... Archers and Rogues and Leaders Warlords .... but only ever one at a time. The most effective at fighting alongside the Archers and Rogues exploit the threat created by that blade to do there flanking sneak attacks.... the blade actually seems to make him a better defender or is that a warlord brash move... (as well as dishing out very strikery damage).

*Stormbringer slayer of gods (it cannot be wielded by an immortal)*

Periodically the DM threw enemies immune to his blades soul rending in D&D
interestingly that could be many soulless undead and actually that would make it potentially common. The blades extra damage at least counts as necrotic.. against foes of the above type it is very nearly just a hunk of lifeless iron (atleast no damage bonus and and gradually fading to hit bonus)

When Elric was most dependent on the thing or had neglected his herbal/alchemical drugs we would become pretty much exactly the D&D state of weakened

Closest weapons on the list currently.
Blackshroud weapon | Lifebane weapon though as I said its very possible the temporary hit points Elric gained were just the effect of a warlock curse.

Stormbringer is described as a Great Sword but... with it lurching towards vitals if it looked like a Great Sword but had mechanics like a Fullblade it might be more true to form. ;-)

Elric was able to best his cousin a slightly better swordsman (his cousin was wielding Stormbringers twin Mournblade) by asserting his own will over the blade and basically causing it to fight in trickier less predictable ways...

Like a game of Conan you want lots of minions... for the blade to eat through of course... not as much fun without it...


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## Garthanos (Aug 26, 2009)




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## silverwhisper (Aug 26, 2009)

garthanos, i think that statting elric is a real challenge--kudos to you for taking it on!

class:
i'm not sure i see the martial source classes as suitable for elric.  my thinking is that when we're introduced to him, it's as elric, the sorcerer-king of imrryr.  therefore, some kind of arcane source power seems most suitable to me, esp considering the source of his powers is explicitly described as being a form of a pact.  of course, since the melniboneans honor the chaos gods and arioch particularly, one could make an argument for a divine source class as well.  however, he's still a pretty formidable swordsman who wears heavy armor, so that complicates matters.

a.  given the reality-warping nature of arioch and his ilk, i'd actually consider a star pact warlock a viable option here (a lot of the infernal pact powers seem fire-keyworded).  it's the knee-jerk, at-first-blush reaction i have.

b.   another direction to go: invoker might actually be suitable--as a matter of flavor, replace "angels" with something more suitable.

neither addresses his martial skill or fighter-ness, i know.  to reflect his martial skill, i'd paragon multi-class elric into paladin (worshipping arioch, of course).  i chose paladin because this (and AFAICT, only this) would grant access to a CHA-based, weapon-keyworded at-will, which to me seems pretty relevant.

gear:
you address stormbringer so no need to revisit that ground, you did a good job here, i thought.

the actorios ring requires a bit of thought, esp considering it was included in the original DDG.  but it's been long enough now since i read the books that i no longer recall its function (summoning?).

the battle armor melniboneans employ is described as plate--but there's no sane way to grant elric enough feat slots to have the appropriate proficiency.  i'd consider making melnibonean armor a magic item which grants the appropriate feats to the wearer.

the herbs he uses, esp when shaking his stormbringer-addiction, could reasonably be said to be alchemical reagents, no?

just some thoughts.

ed


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## Ryujin (Aug 26, 2009)

I tend to think that stating Elric, himself, would be relatively easy. I'd put him down as either a Wizard with Warlock multi, or a Wizard/Warlock hybrid. He is physically weak, has a low CON, and an average DEX, but is a mental powerhouse. 

Any of his physical attributes can be separately derived from either his possession of (by?) Stormbringer, or his noxious concoctions. His improvement with a sword could be modelled as Stormbringer's bonuses, the use of Melee Training; INT, or a combination of both. 

For much of the time covered by the books, I would say that Elric is Epic, by 4e standards. Hell, I'd say that he started out Paragon.


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## Garthanos (Aug 26, 2009)

silverwhisper said:


> garthanos, i think that statting elric is a real challenge--kudos to you for taking it on!
> 
> class:
> i'm not sure i see the martial source classes as suitable for elric.  my thinking is that when we're introduced to him, it's as elric, the sorcerer-king of imrryr.  therefore, some kind of arcane source power seems most suitable to me, esp considering the source of his powers is explicitly described as being a form of a pact.  of course, since the melniboneans honor the chaos gods and arioch particularly, one could make an argument for a divine source class as well.  however, he's still a pretty formidable swordsman who wears heavy armor, so that complicates matters.




The moves he uses sound very martial... so a hybrid with martial is tempting but other possibilities exist... 

One possibility
Swordmage reskinning the warding as magic armor(not over satisfying)? fighting as more martial, white lotus'ing in arcane ripostes that dont have to be that arcane ;-)... summoning his weapon as his bond with stormbringer... if the weapon is indeed giving him the hit points as a magic item... His intelligence and melee elements work nicely ... I miss brash attacks though.(If power attack feat messed with your armor class it might be a bingo)

Another possibility I have already mentioned.
Melee Warlock with hybriding as a paladin for the armor.
Reapers touch and Warlocks curse ...well those make pretty good stormbringer... even without a magic item.. he really cant be disarmed
(unless he doesnt want stormbringer).


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## Garthanos (Aug 26, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> I tend to think that stating Elric, himself, would be relatively easy. I'd put him down as either a Wizard with Warlock multi, or a Wizard/Warlock hybrid. He is physically weak, has a low CON, and an average DEX, but is a mental powerhouse.
> 
> Any of his physical attributes can be separately derived from either his possession of (by?) Stormbringer, or his noxious concoctions. His improvement with a sword could be modelled as Stormbringer's bonuses, the use of Melee Training; INT, or a combination of both.
> 
> For much of the time covered by the books, I would say that Elric is Epic, by 4e standards. Hell, I'd say that he started out Paragon.




Elrics low constitution could be considered fluff "almost" he is constantly under the influence of remedies and Stormbringer.

His at-wills have a major martial cast to them... with melee training doesnt give you... and his heavy armor is hard to attribute without some mental skull duggery which I am not entirely opposed to. Magical armor - (hide) which appears as plate and defends close to that because of Elrics intellect.
If we start him at paragon and can get real plate by hybriding a warlock with paladin and paragon pathing in to something giving more complete warlock powers... or simply rely on a magic item to give him temp hitpoints when his enemies go down. ;-).... he could then have summoning wizard... though focusing on the book is unlike Elric. 

Elrics role in the story was in some fashion a  "Champion of Chaos who turned Champion of Balance"... this is not inconsistant with a paladin warlock. And the characters healthy intellect charisma bent rather works with it.


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## Garthanos (Aug 26, 2009)

silverwhisper said:


> garthanos, i think that statting elric is a real challenge--kudos to you for taking it on!
> 
> class:
> i'm not sure i see the martial source classes as suitable for elric.  my thinking is that when we're introduced to him, it's as elric, the sorcerer-king of imrryr.




The Emperors of Melnibone were largely Martial by this time in history and there sorcerory ... was largely ritual.... so it's not so obvious he isnt a fighter on wierd alchemy to give him a decent constitutions with learned spell caster .. multiclassing in to his summoning wizardry... we probably have numerous builds possible ;-).



silverwhisper said:


> therefore, some kind of arcane source power seems most suitable to me, esp considering the source of his powers is explicitly described as being a form of a pact.  of course, since the melniboneans honor the chaos gods and arioch particularly, one could make an argument for a divine source class as well.  however, he's still a pretty formidable swordsman who wears heavy armor, so that complicates matters.
> 
> a.  given the reality-warping nature of arioch and his ilk, i'd actually consider a star pact warlock a viable option here (a lot of the infernal pact powers seem fire-keyworded).  it's the knee-jerk, at-first-blush reaction i have.



Charisma based starlock / Paladin seems entirely possible.



silverwhisper said:


> b.   another direction to go: invoker might actually be suitable--as a matter of flavor, replace "angels" with something more suitable.




not quite getting invoker?



silverwhisper said:


> neither addresses his martial skill or fighter-ness, i know.  to reflect his martial skill, i'd paragon multi-class elric into paladin (worshipping arioch, of course).  i chose paladin because this (and AFAICT, only this) would grant access to a CHA-based, weapon-keyworded at-will, which to me seems pretty relevant.



I am tempted to call Arioch a Vestige that Elric has awakened... but really the basic temp hitpoints on death of your cursed victim is ummm awefully perfect.
Solid arguments that Elric is best designed as Paragon even starting out
with a rich number of magic items to top it off...
I knee jerk want minimalist approaches too. (ie can I design him as a level one? can even his magic item be built in to the character?)



silverwhisper said:


> gear:
> you address stormbringer so no need to revisit that ground, you did a good job here, i thought.




There is still debate open in my mind... a mix of a magic item and part of his warlockhood.. might be most satisfying.



silverwhisper said:


> the actorios ring requires a bit of thought, esp considering it was included in the original DDG.  but it's been long enough now since i read the books that i no longer recall its function (summoning?).
> 
> the battle armor melniboneans employ is described as plate--but there's no sane way to grant elric enough feat slots to have the appropriate proficiency.  i'd consider making melnibonean armor a magic item which grants the appropriate feats to the wearer.
> 
> ...




Arctorios is associated with his summonings .. it is a component in his ritual magics (perhaps reducing the casting cost or the key ingredient in doing instant summonings (Strasshah) as something separate from when he calls on Arioch)... and identifies him to both the demon lords of chaos and the elemental and beast lords... it is in some ways his 

Eventually his alchemy increases his constitution to make him relatively healthy.. he could be given moderate con (but I am fairly certain that too much con would feel just plain wrong) ... rather like not having martially flavored at-wills would be bad. A warlock with eldritch strike could work as well and like reapers touch using white lotus feats to create snazzy fighting moves..


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## AbdulAlhazred (Aug 26, 2009)

Well, as with most epic style fantasy it is pretty hard to translate into D&D terms. I don't recall there being much in the way of D&D style combat spell casting really. Whatever Elric did was either some form of summoning ritual or related in some fashion to using Stormbringer. Given that the whole setting and the details of how magic worked in it were tightly entwined its hard to figure out a way to stat up a character like this in terms of a 4e PC style class.

If I were going to build Elric I think I would do it as a straight monster. After all he's not going to be a PC. At best perhaps an ally or patron. In that context it becomes a lot easier task. In fact it shouldn't be too tough. This is definitely the nicest part about 4e, you can make a really wide variety of NPC concepts work simply because the game doesn't try to force you to answer unanswerable questions like "What class is Elric?". He isn't any class because no PC would ever be like him, the whole character concept wouldn't work well for a PC. At least not in anything close to your standard sort of D&D party oriented adventuring kind of game.


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## Garthanos (Aug 26, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Well, as with most epic style fantasy it is pretty hard to translate into D&D terms. I don't recall there being much in the way of D&D style combat spell casting really. Whatever Elric did was either some form of summoning ritual or related in some fashion to using Stormbringer.




I disagree... 

Elric summons Arioch as an acid cloud that moves about the battle field munching on minions... and his cousin does something similar it is very very like some of the wizard encounter/daily spells. 

Their at-wills are martial or melee atleast -- eldritch strike screaming for attention.

His world is less bright high fantasy so encountering other higher fantasy flavored characters could be best done as him on a multiversal quest... very common to the character so he did run in to them even.




AbdulAlhazred said:


> Given that the whole setting and the details of how magic worked in it were tightly entwined its hard to figure out a way to stat up a character like this in terms of a 4e PC style class.




I think you are dissing... way too much. 

DMG3 needs how to customize the game to differing style gameworlds.



AbdulAlhazred said:


> At least not in anything close to your standard sort of D&D party oriented adventuring kind of game.




There is that again.... classic heroic fiction is 1 or 2 heros, D&D was designed for the lord of the rings adventurer party and the latest version
is more optimized for it than ever in terms of well ...some of the games coolest fun comes from that game synergy of multiplayer interactions. There is no denying that.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Aug 26, 2009)

What I mean is that magic in Elric tends to be significantly powerful and used quite sparingly. There are times when Elric invokes some kind of effect which is pretty similar to a daily power kind of thing, but you don't see much in the way of the sort of lesser magics that are the standard fare for PCs. To some extent yes you can say that his standard battle tactics are exploits etc. Using standard rules for PCs though seems to me it wouldn't exactly capture the feel of what Elric does.

Personally I'd say he's closest in D&D terms to being a Warlock. While there is the question of armor I don't think its a huge problem. As I recall it there was really only one main occasion where he was decked out in full Melnibonean battle armor, and it kind of seemed like maybe he was having issues with it not really being his thing. Its been a good many years since I last read the whole series but I don't recall a lot being said about how he was armored most of the time. His typical gear could just as easily be fluffed as some type of mail. 

In any case the whole orientation of D&D around the party vs a single heroic individual is why I say characters like Elric aren't really all that well modeled as PCs. I could easily see a campaign set in that world, but the PCs would likely be more supporting characters with the likes of Elric being NPC movers and shakers driving the story forward from off screen. There were certainly plenty of places to draw from to create PCs. They could be exiled Melniboneans or Young Kingdoms humans, or Pan Taang style mages, etc. Those sorts of characters would work fine using 4e rules.


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## Garthanos (Aug 26, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Personally I'd say he's closest in D&D terms to being a Warlock. While there is the question of armor I don't think its a huge problem.
> 
> As I recall it there was really only one main occasion where he was decked out in full Melnibonean battle armor, and it kind of seemed like maybe he was having issues with it not really being his thing. Its been a good many years since I last read the whole series but I don't recall a lot being said about how he was armored most of the time. His typical gear could just as easily be fluffed as some type of mail.




I recently re-read the first book... and yes aside from bits and pieces  like the War helm and greaves maybe he certainly seems to drop using it, occasionally picking it up maybe in dragon flight battles or similar situations where a mount can be said to carry the weight... and intelligent use of his weapon could certainly be seen as his main defense. ie... light armor.

Moonglum classic rogue... perfect sneak attack exemplar.

Rakhir the red archer ...former chaos priest actually works pretty well as a Bard with an Archer bent.... but maybe more true to form as an Archer ranger with a couple feats and background to give him arcana he probably knows some ritual casting but doesnt do some of the divination and summoning bits... as those would mean talking to folks he is out of favor with. Rakhir might actually be doing bardic chear em up style healing during the story so dont count that out, the ease of his comradery with Elric is quite suprising given the grimness of this Champion of Chaos then Order and finally Balance

Count Smiogorn Baldhead.... warlord with a dash of rogue me thinks.
The count supplemented their pair up with minions... as did the Dragon Rider Melnibonean..Elric fought alongside.


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## Garthanos (Aug 26, 2009)

PC especially in 4e are more awesome even starting out than they are sometimes given credit for.. which is one of the reasons casting Elric... so high might not be as necessary as it at first seems...
Yes maybe something like Elite Hero house rules might work cool for actual game play... I might present a build based on those though wierdly that would be less challenging and not really as interesting. Allowing minions to do there thing (a little more richly with bloodiable rules) and make the heros boss sounds more interesting right now

Note I tend to ignore the filthy richer than god status ritual caster power synergy with Elric ..... since he basically walks away from that to adventure.  So emporer "richer than god" becomes one of elrics background traits .. with little game impact except when the DM wants a plot device.

Perfect loyalty to scale of effect for elric may indeed fail.. did he have a hundred fire elemental minions... did they just create difficut terrain and burn buildings ... whacking a lot of minion class enemies even with low damage.... maybe the area of effect is too great or maybe he was able to use his ritual magic to equip his minion allies with sorcerous brands that when placed and burnt did a summonation of the fire sprites so they affected larger areas... than just the immediate battle space... he did this stunt very off camera in the book even so... its a bit up in the air.


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## silverwhisper (Aug 26, 2009)

> *garthanos* quoth:
> the emperors of melnibone were largely martial by this time in history and there sorcerory ... was largely ritual.... so it's not so obvious he isnt a fighter on wierd alchemy to give him a decent constitutions with learned spell caster .. multiclassing in to his summoning wizardry... we probably have numerous builds possible ;-).



well, as with all statting discussions, shared target versions of the character seem pretty important.  :>



> *garthanos* queried:
> not quite getting invoker?



in retrospect, i'm not sure i understand where that thought was headed, myself.  i blame undercaffeination and the hour.  :>



> *garthanos* quoth:
> i am tempted to call arioch a vestige that elric has awakened... but really the basic temp hitpoints on death of your cursed victim is ummm awefully perfect.



forgive me: a vestige?  i don't quite know what you mean here?  i think i just got a nat 1 on my ruleset-fu...



> *garthanos* quoth:
> i knee jerk want minimalist approaches too. (ie can i design him as a level one? can even his magic item be built in to the character?)



heh...i considered trying--but then i realized that in his entire story arc, he winds up killing _gods_.  when we meet him, he's already the emperor of the shrouded isle, which to me translates to paragon right off the bat.  and when he gets stormbringer--which IMHO constitutes at least a paragon if not epic artifact--well, it just gets (game balance-wise) messy...



> *garthanos* quoth:
> there is still debate open in my mind... a mix of a magic item and part of his warlockhood.. might be most satisfying.



[nods]

in reading your formulation, i agree that makes sense.



> *garthanos* quoth:
> arctorios is associated with his summonings .. it is a component in his ritual magics (perhaps reducing the casting cost or the key ingredient in doing instant summonings (strasshah) as something separate from when he calls on arioch)... and identifies him to both the demon lords of chaos and the elemental and beast lords...



it's not unlike an implement but for rituals.  btw, the final sentence of the quoted material above is truncated: ?



> *garthanos* quoth:
> eventually his alchemy increases his constitution to make him relatively healthy.. he could be given moderate con (but i am fairly certain that too much con would feel just plain wrong) ... rather like not having martially flavored at-wills would be bad.



i agree--but something we should consider: considering that 4e focuses on what a character brings to bear in an encounter, perhaps the weakness is a special effect?  maybe the stories are wrong, and stormbringer inflicts such weakness on its bearers (by making an epic attack vs. fortitude every day, etc)?  i mean, the only time i seem to recall moorcock being at a combat disadvantage WRT his weakness is after the failed invasion of melnibone, when yrkoon kicks him off the battle-barge.  just a thought.



> *garthanos* quoth:
> a warlock with eldritch strike could work as well and like reapers touch using white lotus feats to create snazzy fighting moves..



er...white lotus feats?

ed


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## Turtlejay (Aug 26, 2009)

Vestige refers to the warlock pact in arcane power.

White Lotus feats are in a Dragon article and add punch to arcane magic users.

Jay


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## Mr. Teapot (Aug 26, 2009)

Elric seemed to me really straightforward as a 4e PC.  (At least in my mind, on a recent readthrough.)

Elric is a Tiefling (not quite human last scion of a decadent, corrupt, magically powered civilisation that made pacts with demon lords... that's a Tiefling) Warlock (pacts with Arioch and Stormbringer).

He has a 20 Charisma and an 8 Con, but has the Infernal Pact.  This seems like a bad idea _except_ that Stormbringer is an artifact weapon (obviously) that lets a warlock use Charisma instead of Con for all warlock powers. (And acts as a warlock implement, of course, though Elric could easily have Arcane Implement Proficiency: Heavy Blades.)

Thereafter, Elric follows the classic Hexhammer melee warlock build.  He uses a few powers in melee and relies on a constant stream of temporary HPs from cursing to keep him alive and makes a lot of melee basic attacks, adding his curse damage on top, in classic Hexhammer fashion.  Probably has Melee Training Charisma or Int.

Most of his spells could easily be Infernal, Vestige or Star Pact warlock powers.



Heck, I think Elric fits Tieflings and Warlocks enough that I think WotC specifically had him in mind while designing them.


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## Garthanos (Aug 26, 2009)

silverwhisper said:


> well, as with all statting discussions, shared target versions of the character seem pretty important.  :>



Right and why I started giving as much of my understanding of the character out of the box. 


silverwhisper said:


> forgive me: a vestige?  i don't quite know what you mean here?  i think i just got a nat 1 on my ruleset-fu...



Vestige Pact Warlocks - a vestige might be a kind of the old god that is forbidden from really being in the world.. so works on it through Warlocks instead... ok just my interpretation.



silverwhisper said:


> heh...i considered trying--but then i realized that in his entire story arc, he winds up killing _gods_.  when we meet him, he's already the emperor of the shrouded isle, which to me translates to paragon right off the bat.




He walks away from the richer than god and a ritualist situation so its not as significant as it might be.. it basically equipped him better at the begininng of his career (and he dropped both the armor and Aubecs Sword). He also tended to overspend for everything a cosmetic difference I know but his companions didnt think so.. 



silverwhisper said:


> and when he gets stormbringer--which IMHO constitutes at least a paragon if not epic artifact--well, it just gets (game balance-wise) messy...



[nods]
The more of Stormbringer that is kept part of Elric and his Warlock power ... the less uber it has to be...when somebody else picks it up and just as ones warlock powers have more bite later in the story so does Stormbringer 
heck SB is just one of many ;-)



silverwhisper said:


> it's not unlike an implement but for rituals.  btw, the final sentence of the quoted material above is truncated: ?




Yup on the ritual implement bit... and we can pretend I finished the sentence "implement for rituals." and I will be happy... but that still only gives us a clue I might have meant it his "supernatural ID badge"
and just more evidence of his races pacts ... 



silverwhisper said:


> at a combat disadvantage WRT his weakness is after the failed invasion of melnibone, when yrkoon kicks him off the battle-barge.  just a thought.
> 
> 
> er...white lotus feats?
> ...




The white lotus feats are rather cool... Arcane Feats from the Dragon Mag probably (I got  them from Character Builder) which give stylized activities with arcane at-wills. After a successful arcane at-will a White Lotus Riposte gives me a smash back equal to the attribute mod used in the Arcane atwill ...  if they attack me on the round following. (probably my favorite). These skin martially for me rather well.

There were other times it was intimated at... but I am going to reread more of the books and get back on that...  but when Stormbringer was unable to draw power from the enemies they fought and the battle was very very long and very very grindy... that would have been normal everyday fatigue and Elric boosted the quality of his enhancing drugs immediately in order to go on adventures (instead of just replacing he increased)


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## Garthanos (Aug 26, 2009)

Mr. Teapot said:


> Elric seemed to me really straightforward as a 4e PC.  (At least in my mind, on a recent readthrough.)
> 
> Elric is a Tiefling (not quite human last scion of a decadent, corrupt, magically powered civilisation that made pacts with demon lords... that's a Tiefling) Warlock (pacts with Arioch and Stormbringer).
> 
> ...




Warlock certainly gets us very close... 

Love the idea of the weapon allowing use of Charisma in place of Con.
could be cool... it works mechanically for 4e certainly. 

Tieflings certainly a possibility and they have the right flavor text.... but racial features just dont correspond that closely.

Teiflings natural feats and resistances arent getting much precident (from how I read the character -- no special defensive relationship over any particular element) heck a Deva might be closer in that regard. One could shift Radiant and Necrotic to be any pair of opposites (I certainly allow it). I guess the Tiefling Charisma boost is quite sensible.

Gonna have to tell me about that hex hammer melee warlock build pretend I avoid charopt forums because they leave me woozy and lets leave it at that..


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## Voadam (Aug 26, 2009)

Weren't his pacts with elementals and animal lords things he could only do once each? I.e he calls on Meerclaw for a cat favor and then his pact with the cat lord is done. He calls on Straasha the water lord in that first book but can't do it again later.

I haven't read all of the novels and its been more than a decade since I've read any but that is my recollection.

I'd do him as something melee focused with the ritual feat and possible multiclassing. Paladin multied out to warlock sounds interesting and possible. I don't know enough about specific 4e powers and classes to say though.


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## Klaus (Aug 27, 2009)

There's a regional benefit in 4E FR that lets a character use Intelligence in place of Constitution for starting HPs.

More important to a 4e statting: HOW does Elric fight?

Does he outlast his opponent with shows of resilience? (Defender)

Does he strike down mighty foes with few blows? (Striker)

Does he lead and support others? (Leader)

Does he affect lots of lesser foes? (Controller)


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

Klaus said:


> There's a regional benefit in 4E FR that lets a character use Intelligence in place of Constitution for starting HPs.
> 
> More important to a 4e statting: HOW does Elric fight?
> 
> ...




Mostly for me he is a big weapon melee striker -- with encounter powers feeling like barbians and dailies feeling like wizards (knocking down minions by the buckets). 

Occasionally his close stuff feels defendery but only the more strikery defender features. He started his career wanting to end fights fast due to con deficiency and that carried through on his style... and fits with the gifts  stormbringer brings.. staying power but.. it kind of converts him the last steps from defender into striker... it isnt as inclined to defend its weilder as it is inclined to destroy his enemies.


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

Voadam said:


> Weren't his pacts with elementals and animal lords things he could only do once each?



Strasha started willing to do far more... other not so... then Elric changed the nature of his own universe and ...

Even though unable to call the Water lord back in to the world he was able to do large scale water elemental effects (affecting all the water in a small city so that it refused to attack his fire elementals implied he could have done other big water effects -- even if you would build it differently).

Paladin influence needs to be controlled I think...just because Striker is a better match up with how he fights... get the fight over fast.. use thp in the mean time.


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## silverwhisper (Aug 27, 2009)

i really like mr. teapot's idea re: infernal pact/tiefling warlock--but if he's using weapon keyworded at-wills and feeds off the temporary HPs, doesn't that imply he needs to stay in melee, mixing it up?

ed


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## Ryujin (Aug 27, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Elrics low constitution could be considered fluff "almost" he is constantly under the influence of remedies and Stormbringer.
> 
> His at-wills have a major martial cast to them... with melee training doesnt give you... and his heavy armor is hard to attribute without some mental skull duggery which I am not entirely opposed to. Magical armor - (hide) which appears as plate and defends close to that because of Elrics intellect.
> If we start him at paragon and can get real plate by hybriding a warlock with paladin and paragon pathing in to something giving more complete warlock powers... or simply rely on a magic item to give him temp hitpoints when his enemies go down. ;-).... he could then have summoning wizard... though focusing on the book is unlike Elric.
> ...




I guess you're right about basic attack not covering it and Paladin M/C with Warlock certainly has merit. Elric could almost be seen as a champion of his race (before it became degenerate), in the way that a Paladin is a champion of his god. Plate becomes an automatic proficiency, regardless of attributes, and it covers the various martial style exploits. It works better than Swordmage, I think.

It might be better as Paladin multi to Wizard though, taking both Learned Spellcaster (Arcane Power) and Arcane Initiate (PHB1). Toss in Alchemy as a feat and you're a good way along.


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

Klaus said:


> There's a regional benefit in 4E FR that lets a character use Intelligence in place of Constitution for starting HPs.




Yes that could be appropriate but there is also "Born Under a bad sign" which umm is soooo right and has a similar effect ;-)


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## muchan (Aug 27, 2009)

Well, if you do go with Paladin, considering taking the Arcane Domain feat from Complete Divine...it would allow you to add on all the nifty extras like the White Lotus Feats onto the paladin's at-wills and fits the "arcane" flavor of The White Wolf quite well.

On a different tack, you might consider the Deva race with some flavor tweaks. It would be very easy to conceptualize them in the context of Elric being one of the Eternal Champions (I think that's what it's called) that are essentially incarnations of the same thing across the entire Multiverse which is very similar to the Deva's whole "a thousand lives" schtick.


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

muchan said:


> Well, if you do go with Paladin, considering taking the Arcane Domain feat from Complete Divine...it would allow you to add on all the nifty extras like the White Lotus Feats onto the paladin's at-wills and fits the "arcane" flavor of The White Wolf quite well.



ahhhhh...  that is interesting... 
Arioch
so is their a chaos domain, skill domain and arcane domain



muchan said:


> On a different tack, you might consider the Deva race with some flavor tweaks. It would be very easy to conceptualize them in the context of Elric being one of the Eternal Champions (I think that's what it's called) that are essentially incarnations of the same thing across the entire Multiverse which is very similar to the Deva's whole "a thousand lives" schtick.




Love it yes I was thinking of Deva but hadnt quite gone far enough in to reincarnating hero is... very good.


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

Here is a really base one for Elric at Level one call it before he gets bonded to the Black blade and really starts rolling with this Warlock powers.



> ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
> Elric of Melnibone, level 1
> Human, Warlock|Paladin
> Eldritch Pact (Hybrid): Infernal Pact (Hybrid)
> ...




Technically Your glorous sacrifice and Headless fury are both... post Stormbringer...;-) effects.
Built as human because I wanted the extra feat... not for the extra - at will. Not an issue if we go up to more manageable level... and I am really liking that reincarnating hero connection to the Deva. (the attributes +2 intelligence and +2 wisdom are certainly styled right for elric.. )

Note anything radiant... should be visually black radiance and might be necrotic damage and maybe any power listed as affecting undead might instead be considered immortal. Shrug.


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

A full blown Warlock might be better .... Stormbringer and Arioch representing two different pacts...Stormbringers Infernal boon(boom you get temp hit points) and Ariochs seems almost like the Dark Pact though not identical (he has a build up then grants an attack power maybe a mobile sustainable acid cloud .. or better be sustained based on how much build up of soul energy you did before Arioch answered.)
Twofold pact is a feat sort of required for the above.

Doing this is tough with Elric unless we indeed go with Stormbringer allowing Charisma to be used in place of Con for Warlock Powers.

Life Stealer seems a cool paragon path with somewhat more interesting effects from soul stealing than stormbringer...


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## Tony Vargas (Aug 27, 2009)

The Eternal Champion certainly had an influence on D&D, mainly on the alignment system and cosmology, both of which have altered over the years.  There's vanishingly little of moorcockian Law/Chaos/Balance in what's left of the alignment system.  Though, I suppose, you could find vestiges of it in the divine/primordial conflict.  

Elric was concieved as an antithisis of Conan.  Where Conan was a physically powerful barbarian usurper who pitted honest steel against wicked wizardry, Elric was a feeble scion of a decadent empire who employed vile magic gained from demonic pacts.  He was also concieved at a time when Moorcock was probably clinically depressed, and it shows.

How you want to model Elric or a character inspired by Elric depends on what you're trying to capture.  If you want to simulate Elric in detail - or anything else, for that mater - a more simulationist system might be in order.  If you want to bring across the idea of a feeble unhuman scion of a lost empire, still using the demonic alliances of that empire, Tiefling Warlock certainly captures that.   

Melniboneans are physically and conceptually more like Eladrin or Drow - effete, elegant, intellectual, beautiful to humans but distinctly un-human (or even evil).  So those races could also be options.

Elric served Arioch, a 'Lord of Chaos' and 'Duke of Hell.'  Depending on the state of the balance in any given world, Arioch could range in power from little more than a half-remembered boogeyman to the greatest of Gods.   A Vestige Warlock would model a servitor of the former, an Invoker, one of the latter.

Elric did swing a sword throughout the series, but his real power came from magic, mostly the magic of ancient pacts with elementals, his relationship with Arioch, and of course, Strombringer.  He was almost certainly well schooled in whatever decadent martial styles perdominated in the Melnibone of his day, but that hardly justifies a martial class or even multiclass.  Plenty of non-martial classes let you whack someone with a weapon, and melee training could easily model some wierd style of Melnibonean fencing.




Garthanos said:


> Mostly for me he is a big weapon melee striker -- with encounter powers feeling like barbians and dailies feeling like wizards (knocking down minions by the buckets).



Hmmm... 'servant' of a Deity (Arioch, in the realms where chaos i is ascendant) who chops enemies to bloody bits with a big sword?  Avenger, perhaps?


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

Tony Vargas said:


> He was almost certainly well schooled in whatever decadent martial styles perdominated in the Melnibone of his day, but that hardly justifies a martial class or even multiclass.




Moorcock was rather vivid with describing how Elric attacked ... You can almost name the attacks and moves he makes in some of his first fights as a sequence of at-wills and standard actions from the fighter...charge possibly tide of iron with a shield swapping out to two handed use of the weapon followed by a cleave and a brash strike...or maybe power attack etc... Martial in hybrid and MC isnt that far fetched admittedly it might have included more at-wills than D&D alots even for a human  

The point of mentioning that the Melniboneans were definitely not as Arcane as they used to be and that they pretty much fought with sword and spear and bow and war board.
 Was to demonstrate how he could be Melnibones prodigy sorceror better than most all of his contemporaries and still not be that horribly high of level.... (Though Elrics training in using all of the above was explicitly mentioned... so those wanting that detail.... shrug)
That doesnt mean martial  with hybriding and mcing is the best D&D translation of Elric in my opinion but it isnt an unreasonable one either ...if that was the route somebody wanted.

Elric was flabbergasted when he realized you could do sorcery faster than hours of time (although he did perform lesser magics - alah cantrips fairly adroitly -- that points to a Wizard). That he is there greatest sorceror really implies they were down to rituals and old fashioned bloody sword fighting ... unless one was one of the few talents (Elric and his Cousin Yrkoon).

Elric and Yrkoon are exceptions..but simple Melee training is inadequate ... at-wills are where its at for defining normal fighting and theres were mostly melee ...so that gives us various possibilities... (one is martial with multiclassing but Warlock looks far sweeter due to the right flavor and class features... but will take a lot to get them melee capable. No melee training isnt even needed (Eldritch Strike or Reapers Touch are better).

His dailies seem to often be area effects keep pulling in the multiclass wizardry even though may be berserkergang style stuff but those style of actions certainly sneak in from other sources than barbarian/battleragers (like Avengers and Warlocks and Paladins) which he associates with using Stormbringer.

Avengers aspect of might is awefully controlled feeling... and in general that focused control only rarely seems a solid invocation of Elric... it was control and choice that made the difference between his fighting and Yrkoon but ... that could be my intelligence/charisma is higher than yours when we are doing Eldritch strikes.

Elric Wades through a lot of minions... which a swordmage build might get when some of the others dont especially avenger and that is as much a reason for me to say hmmm maybe not Avenger. The swordmages lighter armor type sort of conforms to his later after gaining Stormbringer habits which I seem to recall included somewhat less armor. The swordmages bond with his blade and summoning it are certainly an Elric feature...swordmages teleport way too much...if taken at pure dont feel that great...


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## Mircoles (Aug 27, 2009)

Traditional D&D spellcasters didn't really exist in the Elric books. Pretty much all the spell castings were rituals and if you needed something done by magic, you'd summon something up to do what you needed.

I think in one part of the books Elric summoned up air elementals to blow wind into the sails of the ship he was on.

So, pretty much none of the D&D caster classes woould be present. He wouldn't be a warlock, invoker or any other caster class. They didn't exist in his world. It was all rituals.

Seeing as he was a king and more or less a leader, I'd say that he was a warlord with the ritual casting feat.


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## Klaus (Aug 27, 2009)

If you make him a full-fledged Warlock, you can take Twofold Pact to gain benefits of both Infernal and Dark pact at Paragon (the problem here is that Infernal powers are based on Constitution). Stormbringer could be an artifact, a Fullblade that serves as a warlock implement.

If this is the case, you can take Eldritch Strike or Reaper's Touch to let Elric use Eldritch Blast through Stormbringer as a melee attack.


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

Mircoles said:


> Traditional D&D spellcasters didn't really exist in the Elric books. Pretty much all the spell castings were rituals and if you needed something done by magic, you'd summon something up to do what you needed.
> 
> I think in one part of the books Elric summoned up air elementals to blow wind into the sails of the ship he was on.
> 
> ...




Class in D&D is about how one fights...  It would be a serious failure not to model elric creating a Pact with Stormbringer (and gaining an energy boosting benefit when he cuts down enemies - note Mournblade didnt do this for Yrkoon - nor did he successfully attempt mastery of stormbringers twin ... it would have surely offered something different a different boon for the pact perhaps catering to what Yrkoon thought he needed) and calling/summoning Arioch and Arioch appearing as an Acid cloud to destroy his enemies... (he does that in book one - Chanting Blood and Souls for My Lord Arioch while sacrificing enemies on the field of battle.) . Elric also discovers in book one that all the rituals of sorceror including the time on ritual magic, seem to be replacements for proper circumstance and true need (... when he performs an incredibly elaborate summons by chanting a rhyme to Straashah in his head ... ).
It would seem a mistake not to interpret these and some of the abilities exhibited by Yrkoon in terms of the classes... especially Warlocks / Wizards(Summoning).

I considered the Warlord angle as the characters moves wielding Stormbringer are sometimes neglectful of his own health (Bravura?) and force openings that allow allies opportunities to attack.(this is expressed as how he and his longest running companion rogue fought together).

There are sorcerors in his world that move their souls out of there bodies in order to be  virtuallly unkillable ("Warforged?") and ones from the Far East who were unlike Melniboneans at all who used sorcery in ways elric considered alien and certainly felt like druids ( In areas of his world which Elric considered un-mapped.)

Elrics's world does seem to have characters from the nonmartial classes but they are fewer and farther between. 

Elric is a dimension traveller as much as anything else and did see characters with strange and different abilities and could easily become engaged in a quest with such.. He adventured with Archers and Rogues and Warlords, largely martial in nature and fought monsters and hoards of minions.


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

Klaus said:


> If you make him a full-fledged Warlock, you can take Twofold Pact to gain benefits of both Infernal and Dark pact at Paragon (the problem here is that Infernal powers are based on Constitution). Stormbringer could be an artifact, a Fullblade that serves as a warlock implement.
> 
> If this is the case, you can take Eldritch Strike or Reaper's Touch to let Elric use Eldritch Blast through Stormbringer as a melee attack.




The above is pretty much the build I have on the Drawing boards right now.. The suggestion that Stormbringer allowed Elric to use Charisma (ie Will) in place of Constitution ... does not seem that true to the model but Would allow him to be effective mechanically.


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## Klaus (Aug 27, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> The above is pretty much the build I have on the Drawing boards right now.. The suggestion that Stormbringer allowed Elric to use Charisma (ie Will) in place of Constitution ... does not seem that true to the model but Would allow him to be effective mechanically.



How's about Stormbringer give Elric a +5 item bonus to Constituion-based arcane attacks (essentially turning his 8 Constitution into an 18)?


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

Klaus said:


> How's about Stormbringer give Elric a +5 item bonus to Constituion-based arcane attacks (essentially turning his 8 Constitution into an 18)?




Ahhhhh.. in some fashions just like enhancing elrics health in an aggressive only fashion... and defensively when he kills things giving him faux health. That would be a twisted interpretation which I kind of like.


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

duplicate removed.


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## Mr. Teapot (Aug 27, 2009)

silverwhisper said:


> but if he's using weapon keyworded at-wills and feeds off the temporary HPs, doesn't that imply he needs to stay in melee, mixing it up?




That's what a hexhammer does: you use Hellish Rebuke in melee with Armor of Agathys and similar defensive powers and a pile of temp HPs to keep fighting in melee.  It's a warlock build specifically made for melee.


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## Garthanos (Aug 27, 2009)

Mr. Teapot said:


> That's what a hexhammer does: you use Hellish Rebuke in melee with Armor of Agathys and similar defensive powers and a pile of temp HPs to keep fighting in melee.  It's a warlock build specifically made for melee.




Are we actually talking skinning Elric off the dwarf and stormbringer off a hammer? do you have an example from DDi?


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## Tony Vargas (Aug 28, 2009)

Description is just description.  An MBA w/melee training could represent quite a wide variety of descriptive attacks, possibly quite odd or exotic depending upon which stat it's working off of.   Of course, there's a simulationist benefit to going to the other way, and using regular MBA and a few STR-based powers via MC/hybrid.  Elric was a fearsome warrior when stormbringer was feeding him superhuman STR.  A build that could safely ignore STR wouldn't get that across as viscerally.


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## mvincent (Aug 28, 2009)

I recall that the "Thrall of Blackrazor" (from the Unhallowed DDM statcard) was effectively 3e's version of Elric.

Also, the original Deities & Demigods actually had AD&D 1e stats for Elric:
S:6(15) I: 18 W:17 D:17 C:3(15) CH: 18
10th level cleric/5th level druid/15th level fighter/19th level magic-user/10th level illusionist/1Oth level assassin

The Ring of Kings:
acts as a ring of many spell storings and aids in summing creatures and controlling them (similar to a rod of rulership)

Stormbringer:
+5 longsword (intelligence of 18 and an ego of 20). On a successful hit it will either drain all or one half of its opponent's remaining levels (50% chance of either). Any creature killed by Stormbringer has its soul or spirit as well as its energy levels sucked out and devoured. No creature so killed can be raised, resurrected, reincarnated, or brought back). For every two levels stolen Elric gains 5 hit points and 1 strength point. Elric's strength can be increased to a maximum of 23, but the only limit to the amount of hit points he can acquire is that the sword will only drain 200 levels before it becomes sated (this satiety lasts 8 hours).


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## Garthanos (Aug 28, 2009)

Tony Vargas said:


> Description is just description.  An MBA w/melee training could represent quite a wide variety of descriptive attacks, possibly quite odd or exotic depending upon which stat it's working off of.




Sure but the quantity of your attacks are basica versus what quantity are at-wills? - neither may be great after you get higher level.(so it could be a moot point) But Elric is throughout his career a front line character and both His blade and patron demanded blood and souls in a direct way. A warlock using Eldritch strike useable as a basic attack and an at-will (swapped out for Eldritch Blast) - gets a lot closer...boosting it with  fun white lotus moves (or other things which boost his arcane attacks) give a route to improvement that is not available otherwise.



Tony Vargas said:


> Of course, there's a simulationist benefit to going to the other way, and using regular MBA and a few STR-based powers via MC/hybrid.  Elric was a fearsome warrior when stormbringer was feeding him superhuman STR.  A build that could safely ignore STR wouldn't get that across as viscerally.




The strength he expressed is not necessarily that different than what I call hysterical strength... and related to spirit(cha) rather than (str).

When Cu Culain or Slain (Celtic primal characters gets all wild and whooly his body becomes all swollen and distorted muscles bulging..) and when Elric does the same his eyes gleam and his face gets maniacle etc..

Simulation sometimes is an interpretation... there is a strength in madness...that is not of the body. And Elric probably has a tough time using that strength for anything but an attack or speed of pursuit.


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## Garthanos (Aug 28, 2009)

Built him at level 12 ... early paragon... Well I cheated on stats (gave him the same number of points as WOTC built one of there characters Geran Hulmaster 29 ) mainly to get him up to wearing mail(it matches some of the art of the character anyway)..started him with enough CON to get the armor grumble grumble...  and ignored expertise feat tax on purpose... used windrise ports without any regards to reason inorder to get a fuller trained skill set but maybe I should have gone with Born under a bad sign for the hitpoints he desparately needs ;-). Imyr is atleast a mercantile port city right? hehe.

He is really missing elemental powers... lots of compromises in here... I probably missed more than a couple things... and its not an optimizers build I am certain of that.. but also looks like it has lots of fun... 
and invokes the White Wolf of Imyr in an interesting way...  Im hoping other builds might be posted ;-)



> ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
> Elric, level 12
> Tiefling, Warlock, Life-Stealer
> Build: Scourge Warlock
> ...


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## Garthanos (Aug 29, 2009)

Hmmm the Paladin Warlock with MC wizardry, nothing really house ruled on....(if you wanted to up stats like the previous one I would just add 2 to Charisma which would match the house ruling) ... paladin armor. Stormbringer cast as a lifedrinker blade (should also be a Berzerker blade).  Almost feel like the Warlock ingredient could be dropped in favor of more wizardry but its harder to skin divine stuff as dark as things like the Warlock and the Eldritch Strike with smash back is rather nice even when the other at wills are getting boosted by divine feats.
Bonded Summoner is more elric... Let Stormbringer take credit for the soul stealing the soul stealer pp doesnt quite work for me.

Yup I built it as a human first as I like the extra at-will and feat just works so nice in hybrids.. Elric was halfblood and showed considerable human concience... his friends amongst his people seemed to become infected by his strange thinking (anyone buy half-elf? nah me either).

But the Deva angle as Eternal Champion (Reincarnating forever across the dimens).

Domains of Arioch:???
Power of Madness - may not be perfectly Arioch but certainly possible lots of his attacks seem to induce it.
Arioch seems to favor Change and Strife and Skill maybe Arcana and Destruction or even Freedom.

Aberrant Mark of Terror... works nicely to represent the horror in Elrics bigger magics especially the "divine" ones
For Arioch I would recast all radiant as being necrotic or alternately mix in acidic... (dissolution)

The summoned creatures should be skinned as elemental as possible... 



> ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
> Elric of Melnibone, level 12
> Deva, Warlock|Paladin, Bonded Summoner
> Eldritch Pact (Hybrid): Infernal Pact (Hybrid)
> ...


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## Ryujin (Aug 29, 2009)

Be prepared for extra cheese. 

Your comment regarding how Stormbringer gains levels along with Elric gave me an idea. Given that Stormbringer is demonstrated to be an entity itself throughout the books, how about scaling back on Elric himself a bit; perhaps as Paladin multi to Wizard (Summoner)? Then create Stormbringer as a separate entity. This gives a great deal of flexibility in the way that you can build it. Dark or Star Pact Warlock with Cleric or Warlord multi, to simulate the ability that Stormbringer has to physically bolster Elric...?


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## Garthanos (Aug 29, 2009)

I admit have been ignoring actually Artifact rules but I guess hand waving Stormbringer isnt really that possible with Elric... we have an elephant in the kitchen.

Given Stormbringer takes humanoid form at the very end ... what kind of Roquefort Cheese is that you are building?  Stormbringer having his own actions... to up the number of attacks the pair get?  He really is a ummm Elite/Solo hero so...---- OK build me Stormbringer... I was thinking I really want more wizardly goodness and even just making SB a Lifedrinker / Berzerk weapon helped the feel 

  Paladin powers need be properly tainted to carry the flavor of Arioch? Domains like Madness (and the Mark of Terror feat help too - I already started using them above.) Technically the Wizardry even multi-classed in doesnt have to be that incredible as long as we make sure he gets nice Rituals. Although the battlefields summonings certainly are in there. And it needs to be Elemental in flavor.

A Fighter/warlock bits could be Yrkoons Shtick -- he couldnt connect with Arioch.... and had no problem interacting with lesser demons more directly instead.


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryujin did you have a follow up on your cheese thought?


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## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2009)

Sorry, I forgot to check back in this thread. I was thinking about exactly the scene you mentioned, in which Stormbringer changes form and flies off.

My thought was to skil Elric as a Paladin with any and all Wizard multi feats, then create Stormbringer as something like a Dark Pact Warlock. In item form Stormbringer would be unable to initiate actions, itself, that would require movement. Well for the most part anyway, though there were cases where it literally forced Elric's hand. Perhaps "preferring" not to take actions contingent upon movement might be a better way to put it. I was thinking that minor actions to curse or for the use of specific utility powers would be reasonable, as would any power that it could trigger on a held action. Elric hits; Stormbringer releases a Reaper's Touch with a couple of curse damage dice, for good measure, skinned as "life draining."

By considering the two to be separate characters it would account for the power they have together, while not making Elric into a godlike creature himself. I really hadn't fleshed it out much beyond that, but the concept of having to make Elric a physical powerhouse for the build to work just rankles at my sensibilities. If Stormbringer is an entity, which is repeatedly stated throughout the stories, then it makes sense to simply build it as such.


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> Sorry, I forgot to check back in this thread. I was thinking about exactly the scene you mentioned, in which Stormbringer changes form and flies off.




Stormbringer was able to fly back to Elrics armory all by itself for instance when he abandoned it in the ocean... or return to Elrics hand when he wanted it. It was captured once by a Pantangian sorceror? and being examined.... Elric was able to warlord like call out to it and break its sluggishness and force it to awaken and come to him.  That is skinning the event as SB being an entity and not that different than how it reads... Swordmage imagery aside.

Stormbringer becoming like lifeless steel if it doesnt get life force when fighting the hoards of D&D undead (or the bird like ancestral primitive people of Elrics world) for instance ( a limit on its infernal pact bond that makes it a more powerful bond and it uses shared bond to (shared pact boon?) to share the benefits with Elric.)

I am kind of liking the ideas as wierd as it is.


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## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Stormbringer was able to fly back to Elrics armory all by itself for instance when he abandoned it in the ocean... or return to Elrics hand when he wanted it. It was captured once by a Pantangian sorceror? and being examined.... Elric was able to warlord like call out to it and break its sluggishness and force it to awaken and come to him.  That is skinning the event as SB being an entity and not that different than how it reads... Swordmage imagery aside.
> 
> Stormbringer becoming like lifeless steel if it doesnt get life force when fighting the hoards of D&D undead (or the bird like ancestral primitive people of Elrics world) for instance ( a limit on its infernal pact bond that makes it a more powerful bond and it uses shared bond to (shared pact boon?) to share the benefits with Elric.)
> 
> I am kind of liking the ideas as wierd as it is.




One advantage of skinning it this way is you could have a dual CON/CHA build Warlock in this particular package, by not having to boost the other attributes. There are a fair number of necrotic damage powers out there that could be obtained if both attributes were available but even if limited to just CHA, there are a few that qualify.

It's been many years since I read the books but I seem to recall cases in which, for want of a better description, Stormbringer sucked the life out of the room. For that you could use Cursebite and Cursegrind, from the Dark Pact. The life sucking could come from reskinning pretty much any melee touch power for necrotic damage though.

If you wanted to give it a set of racial traits then I would suggest Revenant, for the virtual unkillability.


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> If you wanted to give it a set of racial traits then I would suggest Revenant, for the virtual unkillability.




How does the revenant unkillability work? Warforged not failing death saves I get.

One issue on the model.. how do you attack stormbringer? does it simply have defenses as normal... and a whopping armorclass.
Stormbringer could certain be unconscious... weirdly enough and elric could warlord it awake (though unlikely anyone else could).

Does it have something which prevents coup de grace ;-)


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## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> How does the revenant unkillability work? Warforged not failing death saves I get.
> 
> One issue on the model.. how do you attack stormbringer? does it simply have defenses as normal... and a whopping armorclass.




I believe that the Revenant schtick works by letting you take an extra standard action when you drop to 0hp. Given how rarely Stormbringer would likely be targeted, that makes it a pretty tough kill. The +2 CON works too, though not so much the +2 DEX.

The Revenant's Dark Reaping (extra d8+CON necrotic damage if a foe within 5 squares drops to 0hp, as an encounter power) also fits quite well with my vision of the sword.  Revenant just has the right feel for me though, whereas a better mechanical choice like Half Elf doesn't.

Yes, I'd give it a huge AC. It would have it's own WIL and FOR. Since Elric is wielding it most of the time I'd give it his REF. The NADs could be bolstered by an assumed "neck item" appropriate to it's level.


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

My son is reading the books... I am going to re-read them shortly. 

I recall Elrics magics having a broader area of effect or reach than we seem to see with the spells in D&D. 

Having rules in D&D which governed PC's gaining access to and control over minions could be appropriate to Elric...his minions were often the Elementals and aside from (at the beginning of the story ...prelude as it were ) the only time he gained access to melnibonean minions were when he had the help of another Melnibonean. Warlords buffing minions. 

There was someone presenting houserules for another type of Warlord (though they built it as a fresh class - The Noble).


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> Yes, I'd give it a huge AC. It would have it's own WIL and FOR. Since Elric is wielding it most of the time I'd give it his REF. The NADs could be bolstered by an assumed "neck item" appropriate to it's level.




IF warforged.. it could integrate objects for things like oh.... pommel stones....


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Stormbringer gets one attack based on its attack ability and Elric gets one based on his... the fact that Elric is wielding the blade is superfluous unless Stormbringer gets a form of boost from its ally... alah the warforged bonus for an adjacent ally?

And vice versi? for SB to enhance elrics attack it needs a power to influence his power. 
Your having the blade absorb from other kills near by is not bad then the kill which is technically elrics works for both of them.


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Stormbringer gets one attack based on its attack ability and Elric gets one based on his... the fact that Elric is wielding the blade is superfluous unless Stormbringer gets a form of boost from its ally... alah the warforged bonus for an adjacent ally?
> 
> And vice versi? for SB to enhance elrics attack it needs a power to influence his power.
> Your having the blade absorb from other kills near by is not bad then the kill which is technically elrics works for both of them.




Even if one builds with cheddar there needs to be things like why SB is not very directly attack-able -- Wizards and Clerics using anti-demon magics are indeed rather likely to attack SB directly.

Stormbringer counts as a demon and and the Warforged classification.


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## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> My son is reading the books... I am going to re-read them shortly.
> 
> I recall Elrics magics having a broader area of effect or reach than we seem to see with the spells in D&D.
> 
> ...




I wonder if we might be approaching the 'summoning' aspect of Elric in the wrong way? I've tossed around the idea that he might be an Mage, Invoker, Sorcerer, etc.... but what I keep coming back to is that 4e simply doesn't allow for access to instant rituals until you hit Epic, and then only in a limited fashion. What if the elementals he summons were considered just the skin on existing powers? 

Need a fireball? March a fire elemental around the field for a few rounds, while sustaining. 

Thunderwave? Air elementals arrive and start tossing your opponents off handy cliffs.

Reskinning the powers for theatrics, rather than trying to find something that has the actual visuals stated, seems to be the most prudent option. In this way a classic 4e Wizard, even one who multi classed in from Paladin, can fit the bill quite handily.


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> Revenant just has the right feel for me though, whereas a better mechanical choice like Half Elf doesn't.




Wow that line needs explaining? -ie what half-elf abiities ?


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## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Even if one builds with cheddar there needs to be things like why SB is not very directly attack-able -- Wizards and Clerics using anti-demon magics are indeed rather likely to attack SB directly.
> 
> Stormbringer counts as a demon and and the Warforged classification.




Well Stormbringer appears to be just a sword, and so wouldn't be directly attacked all that much. There were very few in the books who either suspected or knew its true nature. Even Elric was on the fence about it most of the time.

Area powers that would effect Stormbringer are many but it would have a rather large defence number, a pretty good number of hits for something that is rarely attacked, and a pretty good number of surges. Getting hit by such a power would likely explain the famous Stormbringer wail.


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## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Wow that line needs explaining? -ie what half-elf abiities ?




Sorry, I meant attribute bonuses. Having +2 CHA and +2 CON from Half Elf would be more beneficial than just +2 CON from Revenant, but Revenant has a better fit.


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> I wonder if we might be approaching the 'summoning' aspect of Elric in the wrong way? I've tossed around the idea that he might be an Mage, Invoker, Sorcerer, etc.... but what I keep coming back to is that 4e simply doesn't allow for access to instant rituals until you hit Epic, and then only in a limited fashion. What if the elementals he summons were considered just the skin on existing powers?
> 
> Need a fireball? March a fire elemental around the field for a few rounds, while sustaining.
> 
> ...




Oh sure.. some of the builds I have posted (and a couple I havent) use that thinking...
Sphere of flame nice fire element effect.
hammerfist crusher  (an actual summoning) makes a nice Earth Elemental.
and wall of fog is a combined effort of air and water sprites... 
hadnt connected thunderwave to air elementals (isnt that an at-will) maybe Elric would have it as encounter power (via a mc feat).


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> Well Stormbringer appears to be just a sword , and so wouldn't be directly attacked all that much. There were very few in the books who either suspected or knew its true nature. Even Elric was on the fence about it most of the time.
> 
> Area powers that would effect Stormbringer are many but it would have a rather large defence number, a pretty good number of hits for something that is rarely attacked, and a pretty good number of surges. Getting hit by such a power would likely explain the famous Stormbringer wail.




The disguise self power -- you appear to be something not directly harmable ;-). An area effect attack targetting Elric--- Elric reflexively tries to block... and it affects stormbringer too. Could be Stormbringer accepting damage from an attack targetting Elric.


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## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Oh sure.. some of the builds I have posted (and a couple I havent) use that thinking...
> Sphere of flame nice fire element effect.
> hammerfist crusher  (an actual summoning) makes a nice Earth Elemental.
> and wall of fog is a combined effort of air and water sprites...
> hadnt connected thunderwave to air elementals (isnt that an at-will) maybe Elric would have it as encounter power (via a mc feat).




Exactly. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" applies to magic also. If there are a lot of Ritualists around, but not a lot of actual Mages, then even a MC Wizard with a few encounter powers would be a deadly opponent. I would divert him to a Wizard paragon path also, rather than a Paladin one. I would have to think about which one.


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## Ryujin (Sep 2, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> The disguise self power -- you appear to be something not directly harmable ;-). An area effect attack targetting Elric--- Elric reflexively tries to block... and it affects stormbringer too. Could be Stormbringer accepting damage from an attack targetting Elric.




Stormbringer as Warlock, multi-classes to Warlord? Bard?


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> Exactly. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" applies to magic also. If there are a lot of Ritualists around, but not a lot of actual Mages, then even a MC Wizard with a few encounter powers would be a deadly opponent. I would divert him to a Wizard paragon path also, rather than a Paladin one. I would have to think about which one.




I picked the summoner one but just for flavor (didnt look too close and wasnt sure enough of the powers he was using qualified as summonings).

Elric certainly didnt like the Champion of Chaos role and that was the point he was forced in to both the relationship with Arioch and SB.. so a wizard path.. works better than the paladin one by far.


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## Tony Vargas (Sep 2, 2009)

Stormbringer could be an artifact, sure.  But, Elric's Epic Destiny could be linked to it.  That is, the bit at the end with Stormbringer being freed from the sword form could be the culmination of that Destiny, not a power of the artifact.


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## Garthanos (Sep 2, 2009)

Tony Vargas said:


> Stormbringer could be an artifact, sure.  But, Elric's Epic Destiny could be linked to it.  That is, the bit at the end with Stormbringer being freed from the sword form could be the culmination of that Destiny, not a power of the artifact.


 
Its a plot event like summoning in all the swords bretheren in the final battle... exactly. It implies something about the nature of the beast so to speak (its not likely my favorite method for invoking stormbringer - but an independent entity has some interesting possibilities)

I am comfortable with modelling SB in all three incarnations... 


 Stormbringer is a sorceror/warlock/wizards Reaping strike and a manifestation of Elrics Pact Bond(warlock is a required ingredient of this build).
 Stormbringer is a Lifedrinking full blade / great sword / Bastard sword except it gets better and nastier over the characters career and picks up berzerkergang effects too - it has a simple feel... and oh yes it can be used as a Warlocks pact blade but only by a melnibonean. (tiefling).
 Stormbringer is a independent demonic entity operating in concert with Elric the two become effectively an Elite hero who can truly challenge the gods when epic levels are obtained. (The last version is very hard to build has some good bits and some mechanically clumbsy bits)

It occured to me that a Martial Elric could skin Battlerager vigor as his blade feeding him energy too ;-) so even type one stormbringer could be open to alternatives (but it does lack that final death knell impact). And its major issue... con dependence.


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## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2009)

Well... here is my latest and greatest  
makes good use of eternal champion background (aka deva) with 
remembered wizardry.... 



> Deva, Paladin, Bonded Summoner
> Build: Ardent Paladin
> Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blade group)
> Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
> ...


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## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2009)

Arioch divine powers still feel less like Arioch than they ought to.. but some liberal reskinning and maybe damage type changes... like Radiant pulse might be something like pulsing flesh plasma... and do acid damage. 

The rules allow one to re-skin powers but when I allow players to swap out damage types and things I am well pushing the limits.. to make any of the divine classes as a chaos gods... kind of takes some drift.


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