# :( Who else is unhappy that XP comments are now showing up in the post?



## frankthedm

Who else is unhappy that XP comments are now showing up in the thread post? Previously they were a reward for the poster that did not intrude on the discussion. Others would not even know about them unless they visited the persons profile. Now the comments become part of the discussion, whether that was the intent or not.


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## El Mahdi

deleted


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## frankthedm

El Mahdi said:


> Unhappy might be a stronger word than I actually feel about it, but I do think they'd be better if they were in some type of dropdown (like the spoiler boxes - except it says "Comments" - ).



i'd say a good old fashioned link should suffice. Something like this...

*#3 (permalink) (comments)*


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## Nonei

I actually like seeing some comments in the post like this, but I agree it could quickly get out of hand and some people might hesitate to add XP knowing that their comment will show that way.

Maybe give the person adding XP a choice via a drop down selection when posting the xp: 'show in post' (default) and 'don't show in post' (which would make it viewable only if someone is viewing the profile). Perhaps even add a third one: 'private only' - viewable only by the receiver.


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## Jdvn1

I think it needlessly takes up screen real estate, but I'm not torn up about it either.


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## Deset Gled

My biggest concern: it is possible to give XP and comment in a thread after it has been locked.

See this thread for an example: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/274498-wizards-coasts-april-fools-joke.html

I think that being able to make a statement after a thread has been closed is troublesome for obvious reasons.


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## renau1g

But at least it keeps continuation of a discussion to a minimum. Yuo can only give so much xp out in a day and need to give 50 xp out after that


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## Theo R Cwithin

It's not a huge problem for me: not bad, just different.  

I definitely look at xp in a different light now, and am less likely to do it until I've fully grokked it.  They've shifted from a personal approval mechanism to a sort of secondary/supplemental public commentary system now that they're directly inlined into the discussion.


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## Thornir Alekeg

Deset Gled said:


> My biggest concern: it is possible to give XP and comment in a thread after it has been locked.
> 
> See this thread for an example: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/274498-wizards-coasts-april-fools-joke.html
> 
> I think that being able to make a statement after a thread has been closed is troublesome for obvious reasons.



You can comment, but it doesn't move the thread back up in the forum list, so it will drop off in very little time, making it hard to keep the issue going.


I just tested elsewhere to see if the grandma filter works on the comments.  It does, but it brings up another point; when XP comments were hidden the only people who cared about comment were the giver and receiver.  Now it will be the entire board.  While I would think it unlikely someone would abuse the system to put offensive material in a comment, it could happen.  

Not sure if I like the sea change in the rep system; bringing it more into the foreground, but in the end its not a huge deal to me, I'll adjust.


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## Morrus

Well, let's see how it goes for a while.  Might work, might not.  Time will tell.


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## Nifft

1/ I like that they show up attached to posts.

2/ I dislike that it takes up screen space.

However, that second issue is minor and can be fixed later, and could be as simple as making the comment-box "folding", or something like that. I feel that there's room for improvement, but on balance it's already a very good addition to the site's functionality.

Thanks, -- N


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## Thornir Alekeg

I am already starting to agree on the folding box, like a spoiler box for comments, if possible.  

It isn't bad when there are only one or two comments, but I've seen a couple of posts now with five or six and I find it begins to draw attention away from the post itself.  

I can't imagine what it will be like if sombody posts something that really draws a lot of kudos.  Maybe we should try it out on this post


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## Dannyalcatraz

So far, the most XP any one post of mine has received is 4.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...2-what-you-playing-not-d-d-8.html#post5130096

I'm not thinking it will be much of a problem- even with 4 XP, it only takes up about as much space as a smallish paragraph.

As I posted in the announcement thread, perhaps they could be concealed and accessible via a button, like "Spoiler" text.


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## Nonei

That's true...  It may be even less obtrusive if it is possible to change the color of the rectangle around the comments to a dark gray.


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## UngainlyTitan

I do not really have an issue with comments apprearing in the post. I think it could be positive since it could have moderating effect rather than the opposite. In the old system people could comment on posts that were moderated (at least I presume so) and no-one was the wiser thus giveing encouragement to the abuser not it will all be out in the open and public.

On the otherhand I would not really want to see more than the 6 most recent comments.


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## Nonei

ardoughter said:


> On the otherhand I would not really want to see more than the 6 most recent comments.




I agree on that - so far I haven't seen more than 4 on a particular post, but that may change now that they're visible as people might carry on a mini-conversation.


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## frankthedm

Nonei said:


> That's true...  It may be even less obtrusive if it is possible to change the color of the rectangle around the comments to a dark gray.



Good idea. Getting rid of the nodding yes men smiles would be good too.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/2144/noteh.png


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## renau1g

the_orc_within said:


> It's not a huge problem for me: not bad, just different.
> 
> I definitely look at xp in a different light now, and am less likely to do it until I've fully grokked it.  They've shifted from a personal approval mechanism to a sort of secondary/supplemental public commentary system now that they're directly inlined into the discussion.




You can just give them XP and a period if you want, maybe a PM with explanation if you don't want to public to know why.


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## MerricB

My feelings - and as someone who uses Boardgamegeek.com a lot - is that the XP system is very valuable, but it really, really needs something to make it more visible. 

This system has just made it a bit too visible!

Personally, I don't think that comments are necessary. The ability to say "I approve of your post" by giving XP is enough.

With regard to what should be visible: I think having a "XP count" would be valuable. So, "3 people have given XP to this post" or similar. (The BGG system has the number appear next to the recommendation thumb, and you can click on the number to see who has given XP).











Cheers!


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## Mistwell

I am not a fan of it for these reasons:

1) I find it annoying;
2) I think it is unfriendly to newbies;
3) I think it will promote competition for rep among users in a bad way;
4) I think it will make edition wars and other arguments worse;
5) I think it will foment the formation of cliques;
6) I think it will make the job of the mods more difficult.


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## Oryan77

I kind of liked it better when the comments were private. It sort of meant more in a weird way. It made it nice to know that someone appreciated what you said enough that they bothered to tell you by giving XP (even though nobody else would know about it). That's just my thoughts about it.


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## Nikosandros

Not a big fan of the XP comments.

On a somewhat related note, I also strongly dislike toe possibility of negative rep. I can see very little purpose to it, except to wage feuds between posters.


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## MerricB

Nikosandros said:


> On a somewhat related note, I also strongly dislike toe possibility of negative rep. I can see very little purpose to it, except to wage feuds between posters.




As a note, I'm pretty sure Morrus agrees with you. It was there for a very short time when the system was first implemented, and then they got rid of it.

Cheers!


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## Nikosandros

MerricB said:


> As a note, I'm pretty sure Morrus agrees with you. It was there for a very short time when the system was first implemented, and then they got rid of it.



I thought I had seen it listed as a feature for silver subscriptions, but I can't find it now... did I dream it?


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## MerricB

Nikosandros said:


> I thought I had seen it listed as a feature for silver subscriptions, but I can't find it now... did I dream it?




Stranger things have happened. Incitatus, for one.


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## Nikosandros

MerricB said:


> Stranger things have happened. Incitatus, for one.



Giving negrep to the emperor might be a really bad idea...


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## SkidAce

Oryan77 said:


> I kind of liked it better when the comments were private. It sort of meant more in a weird way. It made it nice to know that someone appreciated what you said enough that they bothered to tell you by giving XP (even though nobody else would know about it). That's just my thoughts about it.




I agree with this.  Giving XP in my opinion is for showing approval of the person's post to that person.  Not for simple "me too" posts.

Hence why I quoted Oryan77 instead of XP.  Two different things in my mind.


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## MerricB

Nikosandros said:


> Giving negrep to the emperor might be a really bad idea...




And that _particular_ Emperor? Oh, boy! Bad idea doesn't come close...

Cheers!


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## Lanefan

Put me down as another vote for the "drop-down" or quasi-hidden comments that you can see if you want to but that don't get in the way otherwise.

The whole XP idea might best be looked at in terms of 'less is more' - they weren't around at all not so long ago and things worked fine then too - I'd prefer if they not become *too* front-and-center.

Lan-"but I still like getting 'em!  "-efan


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## airwalkrr

I actually LIKE xp comments in the post. Saves me the effort of posting to say "+1 rep for (such and such)."


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## vagabundo

It's an abomination, burn it with fire!!

Seriously, it is like I have some whispering voices in my head commenting on the posts I'm reading - it's unnatural I tell ya.


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## covaithe

Having the comments in line could be a problem for PbP games.  Previously it was possible to reward or comment on particularly noteworthy in-character posts using forum xp.  Now, having those comments show up in an in-character thread?  Ick.  I certainly won't be using them that way any more, and I'd be annoyed if other people used them in my in-game threads.

Would it be possible to hide comments for a single thread, or even for a whole subforum?  (I'm thinking about Living 4th Edition, here.)


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## wedgeski

airwalkrr said:


> I actually LIKE xp comments in the post. Saves me the effort of posting to say "+1 rep for (such and such)."



I do like the inline comments. This hadn't occurred to me but makes me approve of them even more.


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## freyar

I'm just curious about something, if Morrus or other admin/mod has the statistics: has the rate of XP giving gone up since the inline comments turned on?  It seems to me like many posts are getting XP for that "me too" effect, and I had no idea that people had been using XP for that purpose.  Or have I just been naive about the whole XP thing?


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## vagabundo

It is also being used to insert - usually negative - comment directly into another's post. Not what was intended with the XP system. Perhaps it would be better to get rid of the comment and just have XP received from poster X.

Example: http://www.enworld.org/forum/5143787-post27.html

I still dont like it.


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## TerraDave

I am NOT a fan.

-I have made XP comments I do not want read
-I think others have done the same
   Just take this thread, I don't think half of these need or should be seen
-It changes how they are used. I might no longer just give it since I like the post, but instead as a comment on that post. I will probably stop giving XP as long as the system is in place. 
-The smileys--annoying.


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## Rykion

I'm firmly on the side of not having the xp messages show up in a thread.  It really looks like it could pile up in arguments.  It also adds at least a little more work for the mods.  What starts out as a perfectly reasonable reply can end up seeming like a flame with the xp messages.


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## Seonaid

Haha, I was looking for a thread to comment about this very topic . . . but on the opposite. I *really *like them showing up. I agree that perhaps they should be in a spoiler block of some sort, and completely disagree about the link idea discussed above (and proposed by frankthedm). That kind of negates the purpose of having them inline at all.







frankthedm said:


> Now the comments become part of the discussion, whether that was the intent or not.



This is exactly why I like it.







Nonei said:


> Maybe give the person adding XP a choice via a drop down selection when posting the xp: 'show in post' (default) and 'don't show in post' (which would make it viewable only if someone is viewing the profile). Perhaps even add a third one: 'private only' - viewable only by the receiver.



This could be a compromise . . . but I don't like it because, again, I feel it defeats the purpose.







frankthedm said:


> Getting rid of the nodding yes men smiles would be good too.



Particularly since all rep is positive. If it was possible to give negative (which I think is a Really Bad Idea), then it would make more sense.







MerricB said:


> Personally, I don't think that comments are necessary. The ability to say "I approve of your post" by giving XP is enough.
> 
> With regard to what should be visible: I think having a "XP count" would be valuable. So, "3 people have given XP to this post" or similar. (The BGG system has the number appear next to the recommendation thumb, and you can click on the number to see who has given XP).



This also would be a good compromise, as it kind of serves the original intent (that I imagine, anyway). I don't think, in this case, that having the link to see who gave XP is necessary though, if there are no comments. Possibly nice, but not necessary.

Thanks for reading! I really like this addition.


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## Nifft

Seonaid said:


> I *really *like them showing up.



 After seeing them in use for another day, I've come to like them even more.

*Good* things encouraged by the new system:
- XP used to mess with people. Why is this good? Because being messed with is a direct indicator of your involvement with the community, and if XP measure means anything -- which it might not -- community involvement is a fine thing for it to mean.
- XP used for "me, too". This is good because it saves me from reading the sigs of people who say "me, too".
- XP used as mini-reviews of posts. This is actually kinda nice, and could provide some useful information. I think the search results page should show rep value (e.g. "8+/1-") for found posts. I'll bet that the posts which are searched for are often highly rep-valued.
- It's part of the conversation.

*Bad* things discouraged by the new system:
- Giving XP to a post that is subject to moderation. You publicly look like a dick for posrepping a contentious post. This is a good change, because contentiousness ought not be rewarded.

*Bad* things encouraged by the new system:
- I see a lot more begging for rep, now that people actually remember rep exists. IMHO mods ought to negrep for this. Not take any kind of official red-text moderator action, but if they can negrep, that would make begging counter-productive, and that would stop it from happening.

Cheers, -- N


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## Seonaid

Nifft said:


> I see a lot more begging for rep, now that people actually remember rep exists. IMHO mods ought to negrep for this. Not take any kind of official red-text moderator action, but if they can negrep, that would make begging counter-productive, and that would stop it from happening.



Meh. It wouldn't help as much as one might hope. Negative attention is still attention.


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## Nifft

Seonaid said:


> Meh. It wouldn't help as much as one might hope. Negative attention is still attention.



 You may be right, but I do think it would stop at least some people -- the "economically rational beggars", if you will.

Do you think it would hurt? As in, do you think mods negrepping begging would lead to more begging, or to other, more anti-social behavior?

Cheers, -- N


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## Nikosandros

Nifft said:


> *Bad* things encouraged by the new system:



It is also a sleazy way of attacking a post or just being annoying without exposing oneself to the risk of a post with possible moderator repercussions.


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## Nifft

Nikosandros said:


> It is also a sleazy way of attacking a post or just being annoying without exposing oneself to the risk of a post with possible moderator repercussions.



 Oooo, this is a good point! Mods should make sure that people who are thread-banned can't use the rep-comment system in that thread either.

Cheers, -- N


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## Nonei

Also after looking at it for another day, and reading everyone's reactions, I think I do like it overall for some of the reasons stated a couple posts above, and I also understand why people might not like it - especially the point about detracting from in-character comments in a PbP thread, and also some comments are just meant to be to that person.

I still like the idea of greying out the rectangle and/or hiding the comments in an expandable box as suggested in the other thread by somebody (sorry I couldn't find the original post to credit the person) so those that don't care to see the comments can skip over them easily.
----------------
This post has 3 comments, click here to expand
----------------

I like giving the option of 'hiding' the comment so it is viewable only by the receiver.

I also have had the urge to give xp to a few posts I didn't necessarily feel were xp-worthy, just because I wanted to comment on them in-line... perhaps the ability to give a 'neutral' comment on a post would be nice. Of course, that might make more work for the moderators (since some comments might be ban-worthy).

Edit: I also liked the suggestion of anonymous thumbs up/thumbs down on the helpfulness of a post, especially if you could sort/filter by helpful posts.

Hmm..  I can edit my post to respond to comments left and really confuse people! LOL.  Nifft - I do realize that XP isn't Serious Business (although I have to remind myself that I have a tendency to be Way Too Serious about things sometimes) but it would be nice if it generally remained a reflection of how helpful someone is, rather than how many of their posts have been commented on.  Although... that may not be too different of a thing!


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## Morrus

Nifft said:


> Oooo, this is a good point! Mods should make sure that people who are thread-banned can't use the rep-comment system in that thread either.




Yeah.  We'll simply up it to a real ban.


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## Deset Gled

With apologies in advance to Nifft...

After seeing them in use for another day, I've come to dislike seeing XP comments in threads.

*Bad* things encouraged by the new system:
- XP used to mess with people. XP is supposed to reward people for adding to the community, not ridicule people or to actively encourage bad behavior.
- XP used for "me, too". This is bad because it encourages XP for no other purpose than to say "me, too".  It also encourages "me, too" comments, which are unnecessary in whatever form they pop up in.
- It's part of the conversation.  This is bad because comments can be made out of synch with the conversation.  It's like a post/thread edit without a record of when it happened.
- XP used to try to be cute and funny.  See this post: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/274685-suicidal-players.html#post5144727 or the one vagabundo showed above.  Both of these commend were added for teh lulz, not to reward the post or to add anything to the conversation.

The bottom line: XP is now being given for the purpose of making a comment, rather than to reward a post.  This undermines the purpose of XP altogether.  

And really, do we need another way to make comments on a message board that already consists of people making comments?


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## Deset Gled

Also,

@Nifft regarding this comment to an earlier post:  "Nothing wrong with using XP to comment. XP is NOT serious business."

I disagree.  XP should not be used to comment.  The purpose of the message board is to comment.  That's literally the purpose of the entire rest of the system.  XP comments, OTOH, cannot be replied to, cannot be reported (directly), cannot be closed the way a thread can, and generally don't fit in with the way the rest of the system is designed to have a conversation.

I do agree that XP is not that serious of a business, but I think it was less silly before comments were viewable.

Edit: As a question to the mods: do you have the ability to modify or remove a comment the same way that you can change a post?


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## Nifft

Deset Gled said:


> I do agree that XP is not that serious of a business, but I think it was less silly before comments were viewable.



 I don't disagree, but IMHO "silly" is not a bad thing, and it's better than XP being treated as something of value. Down that road lies needless drama.

Cheers, -- N


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## Morrus

Deset Gled said:


> cannot be reported (directly)




Sure they can.  Simply report the post.

Don't worry; anyone who thinks XP is a way of breaking the rules will find out very quickly that it is not.


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## Merlin the Tuna

I'm going to toss my hat into the "Yeah, this is not so great" camp.  From what I've seen so far, it tends to just interrupt an actual conversation with walls of "Good post!" or "Yep, poster X sure is dumb, good telling him."  I'd much sooner read the conversation without having that kind of cheerleading sprinkled in between everything.

I'd be in favor of either making them hideable based on a profile setting, or collapsed-but-expandable based on a page setting.


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## BryonD

If you want to reply in public, you can already do it.  You just reply.  
I think having two distinct tools is better than two very similar tools.


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## Holy Bovine

Morrus said:


> Well, let's see how it goes for a while.  Might work, might not.  Time will tell.




I demand you return your hairstyle to its former configuration!!111!@#!@~


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## renau1g

Nifft said:


> I don't disagree, but IMHO "silly" is not a bad thing, and it's better than XP being treated as something of value. Down that road lies needless drama.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Yeah end of the day there's nothing to be gained by having the highest xp (well unless Morrus isn't telling us something and the first level 30 out there gets something cool ) except maybe a small ego boost that people on the interwebs find value in what you have to say regarding a game. 

I agree with Nifft that if someone is asking for xp (I jokingly did in the first thread, hope it was construed for serious) than the mods should be able to hit them with some neg rep as a warning then take more serious actions. End of the day you can't "win" in Enworld any more than you can "win" in D&D.


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## Obryn

TerraDave said:


> I am NOT a fan.
> 
> -I have made XP comments I do not want read
> -I think others have done the same
> Just take this thread, I don't think half of these need or should be seen



All XP is already public, so this isn't really a concern to me.  The only difference is that it brings rep front and center, and you don't need to click to another page anymore.

Even before the inline comments, I'd occasionally check someone's profile after they made a trollish post, and see if anyone repped them for it.

-O


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## BryonD

Obryn said:


> All XP is already public, so this isn't really a concern to me.  -O



You are correct that it can be accessed, therefore it is "public".
However, under the old system you had to go specifically looking for it PLUS there was no reason to know it was there.
If I gave TerraDave XP for a post, nothing would let you know that it had happened, far less anything I had specifically said.  If you wanted to find my comments, you would need to search other posters completely at random.  It is a very big difference.


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## Nifft

BryonD said:


> You are correct that it can be accessed, therefore it is "public".
> However, under the old system you had to go specifically looking for it PLUS there was no reason to know it was there.



 All creepy internet stalkers had total access to all of your movements.



BryonD said:


> If I gave TerraDave XP for a post, nothing would let you know that it had happened



 Anyone stalking either you or TerraDave would know immediately.

Basically, *the only people who would use such information against you* already had it. Nobody else cares enough to "retaliate", nor do they care enough to stalk you.

Personally, I'm happier in a world where the general public knows exactly as much as the creepy stalker, rather than the latter having some kind of information advantage. I'm a fan of transparency in all its glory.

Now, TerraDave is currently enjoying a cup of black tea (with milk and one packet of "Sugar in the Raw"), but when he gets back, I'm sure he'll agree how creepy internet stalkers can be!

"_Not that I'm watching or anything_", -- N


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## Piratecat

In the past we've occasionally had people using XP comments to be jackasses, thinking for some reason that it was okay to be insulting if it was in a comment. These are now highly visible, making it much easier for the Moderators to address the problem*.

* with a short sharp kick in the NADs.


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## BryonD

Nifft said:


> Basically, *the only people who would use such information against you* already had it. Nobody else cares enough to "retaliate", nor do they care enough to stalk you.



I never said anything about anyone using it against me.



> Personally, I'm happier in a world where the general public knows exactly as much as the creepy stalker, rather than the latter having some kind of information advantage. I'm a fan of transparency in all its glory.



This has nothing to do with my point.  

"Creepy stalker" is a *WILD* straw man argument here.

There is merit in being able to readily make a simple comment that isn't automatically broadcast, whether it is locked in a private box or not.
There is merit to having two different tools that do two different things.
There is merit to reducing things that lend themselves to derailing threads, a problem we already have enough of and this will only bolster.


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## BryonD

Piratecat said:


> In the past we've occasionally had people using XP comments to be jackasses, thinking for some reason that it was okay to be insulting if it was in a comment. These are now highly visible, making it much easier for the Moderators to address the problem*.
> 
> * with a short sharp kick in the NADs.



Can they be made automatically visible to Mods without being pushed into the threads?


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## Seonaid

Morrus, I would be tempted to give you a large sum of money to keep this in effect (perhaps within a box) for a year. I like it *that much*. I bet people would get over it by then.


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## Nifft

BryonD said:


> "Creepy stalker" is a *WILD* straw man argument here.



 Not meant as a strawman, just meant to illustrate an extreme. All the currently public information was already public, it was just mildly inconvenient.



BryonD said:


> There is merit in being able to readily make a simple comment that isn't automatically broadcast, whether it is locked in a private box or not.
> There is merit to having two different tools that do two different things.
> There is merit to reducing things that lend themselves to derailing threads, a problem we already have enough of and this will only bolster.



 PMs exist.

Leaving a message on a specific user's profile page exists.

You have the mechanics you want, right?



BryonD said:


> Can they be made automatically visible to Mods without being pushed into the threads?



 Mods thrive on reports. There are very few of them, and rather a lot of us. We can't report stuff we don't see.

Cheers, -- N


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## catsclaw227

I saw in a thread earlier today where a mod edited a comment because the person giving the XP did it to snark the post.

SO.... a person gave XP so that they could add a jerky comment, which was then edited by the moderator.  I am pretty sure this is not what the XP system was intended to do by the developers of VBul.   Also, I agree that giving XP to simply comment about a post is cannibalizing the reason the forum software exists in the first place.... to comment on topics, and most often another's post.

Is there a system in VBul that allows for repping a thread post and not the poster?  Shouldn't giving XP to a poster be for more than just "I like what you say here?"

I like the idea of Like/Dislike in a thread post, but posrep for the individuals seems indulgent.


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## pawsplay

The visible XP comments thing doesn't bother me, bother me, but after a few days of it, I am definitely missing the good ol' days. XP comments used to be like that friendly aside, "Hey dude, I liked that, even if no one else said so," and now it's kind of a side-thread.


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## Theo R Cwithin

Agreeing with pawsplay here.  In all the commentary about xp changes, it seems there are two main camps who are viewing the "purpose" of XP differently.  And it definitely seems to be a personality thing, judging by who (dis)likes the new system!

I'm still in the previous frame of mind, that it's a less visible signal of appreciation to the poster.  The newer view seems to be that it's a public acknowledgment of appreciation, as well as commentary.

But I'm adjusting   As Nifft pointed out upthread, there are other mechanisms in place for fully private commincation.  

I will however agree with the folks who suggest hiding the XP comments in a spoiler box or something.  Whether or not it's a real effect, it seems like I'm resisting "the herd" and fail to hand out xp when I otherwise might have, or vice versa.  It's kind of like viewing poll results before voting.


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## TheYeti1775

catsclaw227 said:


> I like the idea of Like/Dislike in a thread post, but posrep for the individuals seems indulgent.



Good you can give me Exp for it. 

Its basically a Thumbs Up / Thumbs down just below the signature of each post.  Simple Counter of "## of ## found this post helpful"


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## BryonD

Nifft said:


> Not meant as a strawman, just meant to illustrate an extreme. All the currently public information was already public, it was just mildly inconvenient.



  Find the last XP I awarded someone.  Link it here.



> PMs exist.
> 
> Leaving a message on a specific user's profile page exists.
> 
> You have the mechanics you want, right?



How do these options prevent thread derailing?
How do they avoid cluttering the thread with tangents?

And, no, they don't do the same thing.  An instant message automatically tagged to a specific post is a nice tool.



> Mods thrive on reports. There are very few of them, and rather a lot of us. We can't report stuff we don't see.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



You need to report on private messages from one user to another when neither of them are you?  Why?

If I receive a private message that I think merits mod attention, then I can alert them.  If I receive a private message that doesn't need mod attention then I really would prefer you not taking it on your behalf to do it.


----------



## BryonD

pawsplay said:


> TI am definitely missing the good ol' days. XP comments used to be like that friendly aside, "Hey dude, I liked that, even if no one else said so," and now it's kind of a side-thread.




Exactly, we had two different tools.  Now we have two versions of the same tool.


----------



## Nonei

BryonD said:


> An instant message automatically tagged to a specific post is a nice tool.




I agree, and I think I like this part of the system the best.  I actually think it would be cool to have an option to give a 'neutral' comment on a post.

It is, however, starting to bother me that there's not a way to give someone xp without leaving a comment in the thread, even if it's just a period.  I recently viewed a thread that the originator had taken the time to give everyone that replied to his request for ideas with xp, which I think was pretty awesome.  Unfortunately, it really detracted from the thread to see "Great idea!  Thanks for helping!" over and over again at the end of each post.  If he'd had the option of giving XP and having the comment show only on the receiver's profile (like before) I'm sure he would have taken it.


----------



## Nifft

BryonD said:


> Find the last XP I awarded someone.  Link it here.



 I'm not a professional stalker, but how's this for 60 seconds of Google work: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...se-likes-cantina-post5111240.html#post5111240



BryonD said:


> How do these options prevent thread derailing?
> How do they avoid cluttering the thread with tangents?



 Dude. NOTHING prevents thread derailing, NOTHING prevents tangents, and the XP system (or lack thereof) has NOTHING to do with these facts.

Tangents & derailing are much, much older than the internet.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## BryonD

Nifft said:


> I'm not a professional stalker, but how's this for 60 seconds of Google work: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...se-likes-cantina-post5111240.html#post5111240



It fails.  And, you found the XP you did because it was IN THE THREAD.  If it had not been in the thread, you wouldn't have been able to google out that incorrect answer.



> Dude. NOTHING prevents thread derailing, NOTHING prevents tangents, and the XP system (or lack thereof) has NOTHING to do with these facts.
> 
> Tangents & derailing are much, much older than the internet.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



So adding to it is ok?  I disagree.


----------



## BryonD

Nifft said:


> it was just mildly inconvenient.



I repeat my challenge.  And you need to demonstrate that you could have found it under the old system.  Remember, it "was just mildly inconvenient."

Heck, just link to my XP awarded list.


----------



## Nifft

BryonD said:


> I repeat my challenge.  And you need to demonstrate that you could have found it under the old system.  Remember, it "was just mildly inconvenient."
> 
> Heck, just link to my XP awarded list.



 Here's your XP awarded list:

site:http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/ BryonD - Google Search

However, I'm not going to sort it for most recent.

Cheers, -- N


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## PapersAndPaychecks

Russ, please could you put it back to how it was?

Alternatively you may be able to please most of the people most of the time by having it as a preference that can be set in the control panel (so we could choose from "Hide rep comments completely", "Hide rep comments in spoiler box", "Show rep comments", and "Show rep comments in highlighted box complete with annoying animated gif").


----------



## vagabundo

Just to be clear, I have no philosophical problem about the comments appearing or how they look or the XP system in general, but I would like a way for me to turn them off. I find them annoying.

If there is a setting to do that in the preferences I would be a happy camper.


----------



## Morrus

Nonei said:


> I agree, and I think I like this part of the system the best. I actually think it would be cool to have an option to give a 'neutral' comment on a post.
> 
> It is, however, starting to bother me that there's not a way to give someone xp without leaving a comment in the thread




I'm fairly sure that both of these can be done reasonably easily.


----------



## Raven Crowking

PapersAndPaychecks said:


> Russ, please could you put it back to how it was?
> 
> Alternatively you may be able to please most of the people most of the time by having it as a preference that can be set in the control panel (so we could choose from "Hide rep comments completely", "Hide rep comments in spoiler box", "Show rep comments", and "Show rep comments in highlighted box complete with annoying animated gif").




Seconded.  And thirded.  (I'm running two characters today.)


RC


----------



## catsclaw227

I saw an instance today where someone gave XP and commented, then in the _next post_, quoted a paragraph and wrote the same comment.  About the same thing he/she gave XP.


----------



## Piratecat

Having it user-settable in options, similar to how you can hide sigs or avatars, would probably be perfect for me.


----------



## Celebrim

Personally, I'd rather that they didn't show up.  I don't necessarily intend them to be secret, but considering the posts I've given XP for I can definately see them starting a turf war within threads, especially when the capacity to give negative XP comes online (and speaking of, I hope it never does).  The last thing I intend in giving XP is to cause ill-will toward the person I'm giving a sticker to or myself.  

Putting XP comments into the public arena directly also expose my observer status and side of the argument I'm backing in contriversial threads that I'm otherwise keeping my mouth shut in, and given that I know my posts already spill over to be discussed on other boards its going to very much surpress the willingness I have to give XP.   I don't want my approval to itself become a source of contriversy.

Really, I think the XP system should have minimal impact on the life of EnWorld.  The more public you make it, I think the more you are going to see grudges, etc. 

There are only about a dozen posters active enough and opinionated enough to get more XP than me, and if this continues I'll have to disable XP.  I don't need a bunch of approval comments in a thread bolstering my esteem or anything.  Some of you may consider that a double benefit, driving me from the system, but considering how many posters nerves I trample on, if giving me XP becomes a very public affair it just won't be worth it to get it.  I don't want to start creating teams, cliques, or factions.

Why do we need a system to display when someone likes our posts anyway?  Are we that insecure?  I liked XP for being able to give a quiet and unobstrusive aside when I liked what the poster was offering, but when it becomes more than that I think its going to be bad for the community.


----------



## Nifft

Celebrim said:


> Really, I think the XP system should have minimal impact on the life of EnWorld.  The more public you make it, I think the more you are going to see grudges, etc.



 The other way to remove the grudge-factor is to have XP stick to posts (like it does currently), but have it *not* stick to users. So you could freely pos-vote & neg-vote posts, without risking insulting the user himself.

However, that's rather drastic, and ought not be considered unless people really get bent out of shape about how many imaginary points they have pretended to accrue.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## BryonD

Nifft said:


> Here's your XP awarded list:
> 
> site:http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/ BryonD - Google Search
> 
> However, I'm not going to sort it for most recent.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



Still not right.
I think at this point you have pretty well demonstrated that it wasn't right there for the taking.

Edit: It is worth noting how quickly we went from a proclamation of "mildly inconvenient" to not worth the effort.  I'm not sure if you really didn't want to bother, or the fact that the links don't provide the information you suggest is the reason.  But sorting all those links would be more than mildly inconvenient either way.  And that is just to fail in an effort to track down XP from one single user.  To track everyone would be physically impossible.


----------



## Nifft

BryonD said:


> Still not right.
> I think at this point you have pretty well demonstrated that it wasn't right there for the taking.
> 
> Edit: It is worth noting how quickly we went from a proclamation of "mildly inconvenient" to not worth the effort.  I'm not sure if you really didn't want to bother, or the fact that the links don't provide the information you suggest is the reason.



 If you're really not sure what info the links provide, *just follow one* (... and not just the top one). Your public rep activity is all there.

For me, mildly inconvenient genuinely isn't worth the effort. I'd make a terrible stalker. (And that side of the problem isn't much easier now: seeing who you give rep to is essentially the exact same google search.)

The other side of the issue -- when the person being stalked / grudged / whatever'd is the recipient -- was trivial before, and still is.

Cheers, -- N


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## Lanefan

I always thought that under the old system XP comments were the same as private messages i.e. viewable only by the recipient.

::shrug:: learn something every day, I guess.

Lan-"finally a swashbuckler"-efan


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## vagabundo

looks like you can give neg-rep now. Well at least the mods can. Oh dear; can of worms meet the black pot.


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## Piratecat

vagabundo said:


> looks like you can give neg-rep now. Well at least the mods can. Oh dear; can of worms meet the black pot.



Really? Can anyone but moderators?

By the way, I flirted briefly with the neg-rep system for moderation last night, and we won't be using it for that.


----------



## Nifft

Piratecat said:


> By the way, I flirted briefly with the neg-rep system for moderation last night, and we won't be using it for that.



 IMHO the only time the neg-rep system should be used is to "reward" people who beg for rep. It's not against the rules to beg for rep, so it's not like you need to take formal moderation action, but it is something we ought to discourage.

Moderators hit hard enough to make begging for rep unprofitable.


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## Piratecat

Yeah; turns out that admins are -20. Booyah!


----------



## renau1g

Uhh...is there anything I can get for you sir? A glass of water...please don't hit me


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## Wayside

Piratecat said:


> Yeah; turns out that admins are -20. Booyah!



I have resist neg-rep 20!

On a serious note: are there plans to factor ignore lists into rep comments? Right now I'm seeing edition war-ish posts, and then right underneath them is a bunch of people I have ignored saying "absolutely!" and "tell 'em Steve-Dave!" and what not.


----------



## Nifft

Wayside said:


> On a serious note: are there plans to factor ignore lists into rep comments? Right now I'm seeing edition war-ish posts, and then right underneath them is a bunch of people I have ignored saying "absolutely!" and "tell 'em Steve-Dave!" and what not.



 Edition warring sounds like something you might want to report.

Cheers, -- N


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## Mark

Piratecat said:


> In the past we've occasionally had people using XP comments to be jackasses, thinking for some reason that it was okay to be insulting if it was in a comment. These are now highly visible, making it much easier for the Moderators to address the problem*.
> 
> * with a short sharp kick in the NADs.





No doubt that neg rep will wind up being used in that manner.  The bandwagoning effect of having rep comments visible in posts and the cliquishness it will likely engender are going to be problematic, too.


----------



## Wayside

Nifft said:


> Edition warring sounds like something you might want to report.



Ah, but savvy edition warriors know how to phrase their posts so as to plausibly deny their true edition warring intent. The mods, being friendly gents, are then compelled to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's a system that certain members religiously exploit.


----------



## BryonD

So, are the visible XP comments a set thing now?  Or is it still under consideration?


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## pawsplay

Nifft said:


> However, that's rather drastic, and ought not be considered unless people really get bent out of shape about how many imaginary points they have pretended to accrue.




Yeah, imagine a bunch of gamers doing _that_. Pshaw.


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## Fifth Element

Nifft said:


> However, that's rather drastic, and ought not be considered unless people really get bent out of shape about how many imaginary points they have pretended to accrue.



Easy for *you* to say, Mr. Level-10-Whatever-Man.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

I like the comments showing up. It feels like everyone is speaking more to each other.

I think it may, and in fact probably will lead to problems in the future, but I'm confident that when those problems come up they can be dealt with.


----------



## BryonD

Mathew_Freeman said:


> It feels like everyone is speaking more to each other.



What are they speaking in comments that couldn't be spoken in a reply?


----------



## Morrus

BryonD said:


> What are they speaking in comments that couldn't be spoken in a reply?




What are they saying in posts that they couldn't say by email?

We don't "need" anything. Some people like using some stuff; let's not tell 'em they can't, even if you don't want to.  There's nothing necessary on this whole site.


----------



## Nagol

After seeing the system in action, my main complaint is that people will make a comment that I feel deserves a reply either to pursue the thought or to correct a possible misunderstanding.

It's much less convenient to build the message and try to reply to a comment.  It's almost like a stage actor trying to deal with hecklers.


----------



## Umbran

If someone is actually doing something like heckling in an XP comment, please report the post in which the comment appears (and note for us that the problem is the comment), and we'll deal with it.  That's an inappropriate use of the system.


----------



## pawsplay

Having given it a spin, I definitely am still not a fan of inline XP comments. Apart from missing the quiet asides, I think it changes the feel of the conversation. I don't think EN World has turned into hyena-land or anything, but it does seem a little less neutral.


----------



## covaithe

If it's worth anything, I still feel pretty strongly that these comments have no place in In-Character threads for PbP games.  Reading old threads where I gave someone XP for well-crafted roleplaying, and now it sticks out in the thread, interrupting the narrative just when it was at its best, makes me cringe.  I wish I could take that XP back.  I wish I could refuse XP that others have given me on my own in-character posts.


----------



## jaerdaph

Umbran said:


> If someone is actually doing something like heckling in an XP comment, please report the post in which the comment appears (and note for us that the problem is the comment), and we'll deal with it.  That's an inappropriate use of the system.




This reminds me, Morrus - I'm going to need two sock puppet accounts ASAP: *Waldorf* and *Statler*


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Ho ho ho ho hooooooooo!


----------



## Nagol

Umbran said:


> If someone is actually doing something like heckling in an XP comment, please report the post in which the comment appears (and note for us that the problem is the comment), and we'll deal with it.  That's an inappropriate use of the system.




I'm not suggesting anyone is deliberately heckling -- just that comments can be more difficult to rebut.

For a hypothetical (and silly) example.

Someone posts a poll for favourite colours and I post that orange is a perfectly good colour.  Xp comment appears and agree that green is an awful colour -- red hues ftw! (Insert your own contentious topic instead of colours -- say favourite fantasy adventure RPG edition).

I have a choice -- ignore the comment and through silence potentially allow it to mischaracterise my views to the readers or I can attempt to clarify my original post.  If a reply post leaps to a wrong conclusion, I can quote it and issue my correction.  A comment is more bothersome.


----------



## Mark

It would appear that disabling experience points doesn't disable comments and ignoring a user doesn't ignore that user's comments.


----------



## Mark

jaerdaph said:


> This reminds me, Morrus - I'm going to need two sock puppet accounts ASAP: *Waldorf* and *Statler*





jgbrowning and I used to use those to threadcrap make insightful social commentary.


----------



## Nagol

Mark said:


> It would appear that disabling experience points doesn't disable comments and ignoring a user doesn't ignore that user's comments.




I was hoping that it did.  Sigh.


----------



## TarionzCousin

I find it very interesting to see what other people posrep.



I like rainbows and unicorns and songs about monkeys.


----------



## Nagol

Nagol said:


> I was hoping that it did.  Sigh.




@renau1g:  yep


----------



## BryonD

Morrus said:


> What are they saying in posts that they couldn't say by email?
> 
> We don't "need" anything. Some people like using some stuff; let's not tell 'em they can't, even if you don't want to.  There's nothing necessary on this whole site.



Why did you put "need" in quotes?  What did I say was "necessary"?
The board rules tell people all kinds of things they can't do.  Have all the rules been lifted an I missed the notification?  Or are you still telling people things they can't do?

Now, to answer your question: Things they are saying in posts that they can't say in e-mail:  Anything they intend to be broadcast in a public forum.  That is the whole point.  

I've answered your e-mail question.  Will you answer my posts question?


We had two tools, one for public communication and one for private asides.  Now we have two copies of practically the same tool.

There have been a lot of great changes.  But this change is not one of them.  I'm not suggesting that you should never upgrade your hardware again.  But some changes being good doesn't make all changes good.  

I am also not remotely challenging your right here.  It is your board.  If you want to change it to the all earthworm discussion forum, that is your right.  I'll think that is a bad idea also.  

Anyway, as far as I see it, you have created some negative value and added no positive value in this one particular change.


----------



## Morrus

BryonD said:


> Why did you put "need" in quotes?




For emphasis.



> The board rules tell people all kinds of things they can't do. Have all the rules been lifted an I missed the notification? Or are you still telling people things they can't do?




You've confused me now!  What's that got to do with anything?



> Now, to answer your question: Things they are saying in posts that they can't say in e-mail: Anything they intend to be broadcast in a public forum. That is the whole point.
> 
> I've answered your e-mail question. Will you answer my posts question?




OK, anything they want to say but don't want to write a post about.  "Me too" posts, and the like.  Plus it has noticeably encouraged use of the XP system, and getting XP is nice.  Brightens up the day a tiny bit.


----------



## BryonD

Morrus said:


> For emphasis.



Emphasis of what?  Nothing I said had anything to do with need. 



> You've confused me now!  What's that got to do with anything?



 I was replying to:


> Some people like using some stuff; let's not tell 'em they can't






> OK, anything they want to say but don't want to write a post about.  "Me too" posts, and the like.



May I dispute that this meets the criteria of "can't post in a reply"?



> Plus it has noticeably encouraged use of the XP system, and getting XP is nice.  Brightens up the day a tiny bit.



Thanks.  That most certainly answers the question.

I did not realize that encouraging the use of the XP system was a controlling objective.

IMO, the negative impacts of this change greatly outweigh the positive.


----------



## Morrus

BryonD said:


> Emphasis of what? Nothing I said had anything to do with need.




Emphasis of a word within my sentence.  With all due respect, I don't really want to get into an argument about my use of punctuation with you.



> May I dispute that this meets the criteria of "can't post in a reply"?




You can post it in a reply. Or, if you prefer, you can post it as an XP comment.



> IMO, the negative impacts of this change greatly outweigh the positive.




I gathered as much. As you have no doubt gathered, I disagree.


----------



## Sammael

I still fail to see the negative impacts of this change. I love it!


----------



## fba827

i have no real problem seeing others' comments (though truth be told, i hardly actually read them, just glance by and notice that someone did give xp).

I have found, however, that I (personally) give LESS xp since the change has been put in place.  Mainly because I feel more pressure to say something witty and clever rather than just my usual "thanks for sharing" / "good idea" / etc.  And, frankly, witty and clever is not something normal for me 

However, I do admit that the greater lack of transparency would increase over all use of the XP system by other people, so i guess that is a net gain.


----------



## Piratecat

TarionzCousin said:


> I like rainbows and unicorns and *songs about monkeys*.




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--szrOHtR6U]YouTube - Monkey[/ame]


----------



## Plane Sailing

I Loooove Veggie Tales, and the Silly Songs with Larry.

The dance of the cucumber is one of my all-time favourites.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZjhjvLO4f4]YouTube - Silly Songs with Larry, The Dance of The Cucumber[/ame]


----------



## Pbartender

Plane Sailing said:


> I Loooove Veggie Tales, and the Silly Songs with Larry.
> 
> The dance of the cucumber is one of my all-time favourites.




I was always partial to The Yodeling Veterinarian of the Alps...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUkpE16b56g]YouTube - The Yodeling Veterinarian of the Alps Silly Song[/ame]


----------



## Roger

*Greasemonkey Script*

I've thrown together a very rudimentary Greasemonkey Script that removes the XP Comments box in posts.

You can try it at:
RemoveENWorldXPComments for Greasemonkey

Seems to work fine, but I haven't exactly tested it extensively.



Cheers,
Roger


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Just an observation:

It seems to me that there are a lot more people using the XP system to leave the kinds of messages that one would normally see as regular posts in threads.

IOW, it seems as if the rate of accumulation of people's postcounts will slow while their XP totals and churn in the XP system will increase.

(See post #62 in this thread.)


----------



## Merkuri

Dannyalcatraz said:


> (See post #62 in this thread.)




Do you really want those cluttering up the thread?  That was an off-topic post on my part, and instead of derailing the entire thread with people saying congratulations they decided to just comment on the post instead.

I think that's an improvement.


----------



## Seonaid

Merkuri said:


> Do you really want those cluttering up the thread?  That was an off-topic post on my part, and instead of derailing the entire thread with people saying congratulations they decided to just comment on the post instead.
> 
> I think that's an improvement.



Me too.  I don't see anything wrong with it at all, actually.


----------



## Piratecat

I'm surprised to find that I distinctly prefer the visible xp comments. I'm all for letting people make them invisible if they prefer, though; user customization is the way to go.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Merkuri said:


> Do you really want those cluttering up the thread?  That was an off-topic post on my part, and instead of derailing the entire thread with people saying congratulations they decided to just comment on the post instead.
> 
> I think that's an improvement.






Seonaid said:


> Me too.  I don't see anything wrong with it at all, actually.



It doesn't matter to me either way, though I do think it devalues the XP system just a tad.  As for it cluttering up the thread, comments like those could just as easily be made via private messages instead of XP or the thread.

Ultimately, it depends upon what those who implemented the system want it to do.  If they don't want that kind of commentary in the XP system, they may see this as undesirable.  I'm just bringing it to their attention.

If they don't care, then all's well.


----------



## vagabundo

I now feel that the posts in-thread are senators on the floor of an auditorium and the XP comments are the peanut galley...


----------



## Theo R Cwithin

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Just an observation:
> 
> It seems to me that there are a lot more people using the XP system to leave the kinds of messages that one would normally see as regular posts in threads.



Yup, I've noticed exactly this.

I've grown used to it, though I now no longer think of it as "XP", as in some sort of reward to the poster.  To my mind, it's now an alternate comment system for leaving a minimal note that's not important or relevant enough for a full post.  So it seems a little strange to tabulate a score for it, but *meh* :shrug:  Welcome to teh int3rwebz, where They tabulate scores for all kinds of bizarre things.


----------



## Abraxas

Simple question - are we any closer to having the option to hide xp comments?


----------

