# I want to occasionally discuss politics on ENWorld



## ForceUser (Oct 8, 2003)

OT discussions on sensitive topics have run the gamut on these boards. Properly moderated and with considerate discussion these threads have been successful, interesting, and informative. ENWorld is where I like to hang my hat on the internet, and I want to discuss poltics with my gaming peers - the community I know and respect -  from time to time. Please consider relaxing the restriction on political discussion; surely there's a place for it somewhere in our community. Thanks.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Oct 8, 2003)

I'd rather not see political discussions here. Even well moderated, politics can get ugly really quickly, and I'd rather not have that be something that can happen here. Part of the reason ENWorld is a civil place on the internet to come and hang out is because there is no discussion of politics and religion. I know that I'd just end up getting angry over some things, and thats something I don't want to see happen here.


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## johnsemlak (Oct 8, 2003)

I think a lot of posters here appreciate that the no-politics rule helps keep the focus on gaming.  

I personally have found messageboards to be (usually) an non-productive forum to discuss politics anyway, especially a forum with as many members as EN world.  You always get people with opposing views who get in flame-war.

Also, I think moderating politics discussion would be an added stress on our moderators.

In short, I don't think it's worth it.


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## Piratecat (Oct 8, 2003)

Sorry, Forceuser; politics and religion are inherently divisive in a forum like this, and it's not something that we choose to have here. None of the admins (including our beloved board owner Morrus) or moderators want to deal with something like this, so it isn't going to happen. 

My recommendation for you would be to head to the Debate Club forum at Nutkinland.  I love Nutkinland, and many Nutkinlanders and EN Worlders overlap.  Make sure you read the rules first, though! Personal attacks aren't allowed anywhere except Bad Fur Day, which keeps discussions relatively civil.


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## Dimwhit (Oct 8, 2003)

I'll second the notion of going to Nutkinland. That's why I went there. I find I spend more time over there than I do here. It's funny.

But I recommend spending time just reading around in the forums there before you start posting. People get offended there often if they don't understand how people interact with each other. I've found it to be very different than EN World.


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## Henry (Oct 8, 2003)

What he said. 

Hopefully, I'll see you prowling around NKL one day!


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## diaglo (Oct 8, 2003)

what the above three said.

you really don't want to see that many flames over here.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 8, 2003)

Yeah, it's my experience that politics and religion almost always end up badly, on any message board.  And while I don't doubt that as a community ENWorld could handle it, quite frankly I don't see any need.  Besides, there are already a bunch of OT posts in General as it is.  Additionally, "relaxing" the restriction is anything but relaxing - it means more work for the moderators, as well as a huge headache explaining explicitly what is and isn't allowed, as well as exceptions.  And then you'll inevitably get people who complain that one topic is allowed and another isn't.  It really has to be an all-or-none situation, and in this case it's none.


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 8, 2003)

Honestly, I think the enforcement of the rules are getting to the point where they're stifling, which makes me want to (1) spend more time at Nutkinland, and (2) not follow the rules here. I really think the mods need to lighten up a bit. Unless someone starts complaining or flamefests erupt, why can't the occasional political or OT fun thread stay open?

Notice the avatar change. I'm going to start quoting time cube on you guys if I'm not allowed to do anything else.


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## JoeBlank (Oct 8, 2003)

I resisted the Nutkinland urge for a long time, as I am already addicted to EN World and figured I did not have the time to get wrapped up in another messageboard.

Finally made the jump, and now I think of Nutkinland as a part of EN World.

Just a little room in the back where some of the regulars go to relax, cut loose, and talk about some things that are not fitting for the main room.

Give it a try.


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## A2Z (Oct 8, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> What he said.
> 
> Hopefully, I'll see you prowling around NKL one day!



Just don't start a 'Hi I'm new' thread. *shakes fist* Don't you do it!


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 8, 2003)

A2Z said:
			
		

> Just don't start a 'Hi I'm new' thread. *shakes fist* Don't you do it!




Don't listen to him. Do it. They like that over there and its fun to do!


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 8, 2003)

Alright, you brought this on yourselves!



> Creation of 4 simultaneous
> 24 hour days, within a single rotation of Earth, empowers
> me above all 1-day gods and
> educated stupid scientists. I
> ...




http://www.timecube.com/


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## Morrus (Oct 8, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> Honestly, I think the enforcement of the rules are getting to the point where they're stifling



Religion and politics have _always_ been strictly prohibited, and such threads have _always_ been immediately closed.  I'd say that the fact that you're personally running up against rules more often recently says more about you than it does about how the boards are moderated, Darrin.



> (1) spend more time at Nutkinland, and (2) not follow the rules here. I really think the mods need to lighten up a bit. Unless someone starts complaining or flamefests erupt, why can't the occasional political or OT fun thread stay open?



Because we mods don't want to sit up all night waiting for the flamefest so that we can close it.  We have better things to do than spend every waking hour looking after you people.  Really, Darrin, I don't know why you can't understand this: 99.9999% of political/religious threads end in a flamewar.  So they're not allowed.

As for preferring NKL - that's fine, really.  We don't expect everyone to find EN World to their personal taste, and such a thing would be impossible to provide.  

If you don't like a website (or anything else in this life), just don't use it.  It's no big deal, and there are plenty out there which are probably more to your liking.  However, deliberately provoking moderators or breaking rules is going to end up with that choice being made for you rather than by you, in the long run.


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## Henry (Oct 8, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> Unless someone starts complaining or flamefests erupt, why can't the occasional political or OT fun thread stay open?




Because certain topics, based on hard-won experience, are hot-buttons here; these topics, without fail, degenerate quickly due to emotional investment in that topic.

OT fun threads stay open here all the time; this is evident. But certain topics get nasty very quickly. I'd rather deal with it now, then deal with an inevitable barn-burner in the morning.



> Notice the avatar change. I'm going to start quoting time cube on you guys if I'm not allowed to do anything else.




Hey! Leave the Book of Vile Darkness out of this!


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## KnowTheToe (Oct 8, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> However, deliberately provoking moderators or breaking rules is going to end up with that choice being made for you rather than by you, in the long run.




I don't know why, but I think this sentence kicks major tookus.


Anyway, go look at the thread about the scariest gaming moment in the general forum.  A flamewar was narrowly avoided just because people have different communication styles and misinterprit each others comments.  This stuff happens all the time and now add something emotionally charged and it goes crazy.

I personally come here because it is friendly.  Being crude and rude to people behind a terminal is too easy and common.  I like having a few places where adults can share a hobby and act like adults.  If I want to speak about politics, I just have to do it with a different group of adults.


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## ForceUser (Oct 8, 2003)

I have this urge to pontificate on matters politic and want to do so among friends, is all. I'll check out Nutkinland, though it seems a strange and evil place.


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## MerakSpielman (Oct 8, 2003)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> ...it seems a strange and evil place.



That it is, friend, that it is. 

It's like Vegas, baby.


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## Psionicist (Oct 8, 2003)

What if we do religion and politics in character? Arnold kan be the half-orc bard for instance.


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## Olive (Oct 9, 2003)

I know it's not really a matter for debate, but I just thought I'd chime in.

I really like the no politics rules here. I probably wouldn't come here if they didn't exist.

And it's not because of a lack of interest in politics. I'm passionate about politics, but I know that there are alot of people on these boards who's opinion I share about gaming matters and whose politics I would find anathema. I like that my politics and my gaming information don't get confused.

So count me in as a voice of support for the policy.


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## Holy Bovine (Oct 9, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> Alright, you brought this on yourselves!
> _snip insane Gene Ray ramble_



 You got a long way to go before you master teh funny.

 I would suggest untwisting your panties over your closed thread and getting back to business - entertaining me in BFD!!!


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## Buttercup (Oct 9, 2003)

Olive said:
			
		

> I I'm passionate about politics, but I know that there are alot of people on these boards who's opinion I share about gaming matters and whose politics I would find anathema. I like that my politics and my gaming information don't get confused.



You speak for me.  EN World is an oasis in the sea of hostile politicico-religious sputum that is the internet.


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## orbitalfreak (Oct 9, 2003)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> What if we do religion and politics in character? Arnold kan be the half-orc bard for instance.



 Disclaimer: I'm not a moderator/administrator/guy with official capacity.

I believe that in-character or in-game religion/politics can be discussed.  I recall this question being asked before and it was allowed.  Just don't let it parallel real-world situations.

For instance, debating the practices of the clergy of St. Cuthbert versus those of clerics of Nerull is fine.  Duscussing Ahnald the Bard's being elected as Baron of Koli-Farna would be a no-no.


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## Olive (Oct 9, 2003)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> You speak for me.  EN World is an oasis in the sea of hostile politicico-religious sputum that is the internet.




Buttercup, let this turn into a love in, I have rarely seena  post by you here on at nutkinland i didn't agree with. on ya!


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## the Jester (Oct 9, 2003)

Just so you know, a while back there was a Yahoo group started for continuing the discussion of closed threads, I'm not certain it's still around but I'll try to remember to check for you and post in here.  Not sure, either, whether anyone still uses it- but maybe when it comes up the mods would let us stick a link at the end of the thread or something?


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## Azlan (Oct 9, 2003)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> Finally made the jump, and now I think of Nutkinland as a part of EN World.
> 
> Just a little room in the back where some of the regulars go to relax, cut loose, and talk about some things that are not fitting for the main room.




I, too, see NutkinLand as EN World's "little room in the back", though I sometimes compare it to the little rooms where they display the porn material in the backs of otherwise pedestrian bookstores. And you know the kinds of guys you can find hanging out in _those_ little rooms!


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## diaglo (Oct 9, 2003)

Azlan said:
			
		

> I, too, see NutkinLand as EN World's "little room in the back", though I sometimes compare it to the little rooms where they display the porn material in the backs of otherwise pedestrian bookstores. And you know the kinds of guys you can find hanging out in _those_ little rooms!




yeah, i agree. if we all got what we wanted ENWorld too would be flooded with pics of nekked guys and gals.


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## KnowTheToe (Oct 9, 2003)

Azlan said:
			
		

> I, too, see NutkinLand as EN World's "little room in the back", though I sometimes compare it to the little rooms where they display the porn material in the backs of otherwise pedestrian bookstores. And you know the kinds of guys you can find hanging out in _those_ little rooms!




I think once upon a time this was true, but Nutkinland has really changed for the better (IMO)


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## Tom Cashel (Oct 9, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> I'd say that the fact that you're personally running up against rules more often recently says more about you than it does about how the boards are moderated, Darrin.




But what exactly does it say about him?  Don't make us guess.


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 10, 2003)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> But what exactly does it say about him?  Don't make us guess.



 I'm kind of curious about that one myself.


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## Kai Lord (Oct 10, 2003)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> But what exactly does it say about him?  Don't make us guess.



It might be fun to guess.  Someone could start a poll....


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 10, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> It might be fun to guess.  Someone could start a poll....




I promise not to take offense if someone does post one. Maybe Nutkinland would be the better place for that discussion though. Frankly I'm kind of surprised that this thread wasn't shut down in the middle of the first page. Maybe I'm being too hard on the mods here after all.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 10, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> I promise not to take offense if someone does post one. Maybe Nutkinland would be the better place for that discussion though. Frankly I'm kind of surprised that this thread wasn't shut down in the middle of the first page. Maybe I'm being too hard on the mods here after all.



No, you're not.

Moderators have the unenviable job of being collosal jerks.  In a culture (and yes, the internet is a culture of it's own) that deifies free speech and freedom in general, being the one that has to enforce rules carries with it the baggage of being hated by a majority of people.  In fact, I imagine that the moderators get a LOT of flak from members of the community - I know your not the first.  Unfortunately the general chaos of the web manifests itself very easily, and thus moderators in general need to take a hard stance against it.  And that can make them come off as arrogant, self-centered, holier-than-thou, and generally jerky.  Sometimes that's true, and sometimes it's only perceived, as is the case here.

I think it's a testament to the community that we have that there isn't more complaints than there appears to be.  I do honestly think if any group of people could have civil political or religious discussions, it would be this group.  Unfortunately, especially with topics as controversial as these, you need to take a hard stance and enforce it.  Because even one exception opens the floodgates, and once you do that it's very hard to close them again.  And that means that the moderators do have to be jerks about it.


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## Tom Cashel (Oct 10, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> It might be fun to guess.  Someone could start a poll....




This goes against DA ROOLZ, but I'd like to register the fact that I am _super-unsatisfied_ with Baraendur's "most annoying" poll being shut down before I could rake in a single vote.

I'm sure Kai "E-mail Pornographer" Lord would've done me a solid...


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## Gez (Oct 10, 2003)

Azlan said:
			
		

> I, too, see NutkinLand as EN World's "little room in the back", though I sometimes compare it to the little rooms where they display the porn material in the backs of otherwise pedestrian bookstores. And you know the kinds of guys you can find hanging out in _those_ little rooms!




Actually, no. The porn room is Nutwarz, which is yet a separate messageboards. If Nutkinland may be seen as the site spawned by EN World to hide all controversial stuff (like pantheon threads initially, and political or religious debates); Nutwarz is likewise for Nutkinland. There be porn, lots of it.

But Nutkinland is OK -- it's confined to one forum that isn't available to non-registered users, it's clearly identified by a PORN posticon and by a CODA27 thread started; so that you won't enter a porn thread by accident.

A general advice for Nutkinland: If someone tells you that you're <swearword> lame and that you should <swearword> <obscene act> and <die in a gross and violent way>; don't take it too seriously. Don't take it personally. It has become rare in BFD and absent from the rest of the forums, but you may come to see it.
In this case, keep in mind that those are mere bytes typed out of attitude statement. Don't be offended. If you are offended anyway, simply don't reply and let it -- let them, both the thread and the shock -- die out.

And don't be offended by something so mild as a typo in your name that wasn't even mean as an insult!


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## EricNoah (Oct 10, 2003)

You know the old prayer asking for the "strength to change the things I can, the serenity to accept the things I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference"?  I think that applies here.  

Russ is in the enviable position to have these message boards be exactly the way he wants them to be.  This includes the politics & religion prohibition, because he doesn't want to have to deal with the mess that he thinks such discussions cause (or the unnecessary stress or whatever).  

If you happen to think such discussion is fun, entertaining, vital, important, whatever, you have some options.  You can go to another forum where such discussion is allowed.  You can start your own message boards and try to bring others over.  You could, if it were that important to you, stop coming to EN World completely if you felt you must.  But at some point you will probably just have to accept that it's not going to happen here.  

By the way, that strength/serenity/widsom prayer is on a plaque on the wall in Eric's Grandma's bathroom.


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## diaglo (Oct 10, 2003)

i always like the revised version:

Lord Grant Me

The Serenity To

Accept The Things

I Cannot Change,

The Strength To

Change The Things

I Can And The

Wisdom To Hide The

Bodies....


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## the Jester (Oct 10, 2003)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i always like the revised version:
> 
> Lord Grant Me
> 
> ...





Oho!  So _that's_ what those were in the hall closet!


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## fett527 (Oct 10, 2003)

I'm for no politics or religion here definitely.  I understand ForceUser's position about discussing things like this with people you know and respect, but you may not like or respect those people anymore after you start discussing them.


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 10, 2003)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> I'm sure Kai "E-mail Pornographer" Lord would've done me a solid...




I'm pretty sure he did vote, for himself.


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## Dimwhit (Oct 10, 2003)

> I'm for no politics or religion here definitely. I understand ForceUser's position about discussing things like this with people you know and respect, but you may not like or respect those people anymore after you start discussing them.



It's interesting you say that. I completely agree, to an extend. Oddly enough, moving that type of discussion to, say, NKL really helps seperate it. You can like someone here at EN World when you're talking D&D, then go over to NKL and hear them spout rhetoric that makes your hair stand on end, but when you come back here, you still like them. For me, anyway. It's really quite odd. On the other hand, like you said, if politics, religion, etc. were discussed here at EN World, there would be no seperation, so those people who liked will start to grate on you. Or something like that.

I think my train of thought jumped the tracks about halfway through that pargraph. But I sure know what I meant to say. 



> Originally Posted by *diaglo*
> _i always like the revised version:
> 
> Lord Grant Me
> ...





And that is hillarious!


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## Henry (Oct 10, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> Actually, no. The porn room is Nutwarz, which is yet a separate messageboards. If Nutkinland may be seen as the site spawned by EN World to hide all controversial stuff (like pantheon threads initially, and political or religious debates); Nutwarz is likewise for Nutkinland. There be porn, lots of it.




I never knew! 

So let me get this straight... The Spin-off of the "Eric Noah Unofficial" Spin-off - has a spin-off?

Good God, Eric! You're like Norman Lear!


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## William Ronald (Oct 12, 2003)

> So let me get this straight... The Spin-off of the "Eric Noah Unofficial" Spin-off - has a spin-off?
> 
> Good God, Eric! You're like Norman Lear!




Hmm, maybe Eric can explain who is handling the Archie Bunker role and who is handling the Meathead role?    Although it is good to see that Eric is "Moving On Up" in his web influence.  (ALthough I have not heard any plans by Eric to move to a big apartment in the sky and to open up a chain of laundromats and dry cleaners.  )

(Noe to readers outside of the U.S.:  Several references to Norman Lear programs in preceding paragraph.)

I think Gez has a valid point about how to take insults at Nutkinland and elsewhere.  Sometimes, I have learned, it is best not to respond to an insult.  (There is always the danger of becoming too much like someone who is insulting you.) Of course, you may want to take the opinions you find here, at Nutkinland, and elsewhere  with a grain or two of salt. Or more.


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