# What's with all the new folks?



## reveal (May 25, 2005)

I'm not picking on anyone, I'm just genuinely curious. It seems like everyday there's a post from someone with less than 100 posts. Is it just me or are there a lot more new people on here lately? Did I miss a memo at my last "RPG Geeks Unite" meeting?


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## der_kluge (May 25, 2005)

It seems like there are quite a few new folks, but there are also some people who used to be regular posters, who have kind of drifted away. So, you win some, you lose some.


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## DragonSword (May 25, 2005)

I think ENWorld has a lot of lurkers - and a fair few of them seem to be starting to post.

I haven't especially noticed what you are saying because on most other forums I've been on 100 posts is a significantly larger amount than it is here. On ENWorld, 100 posts is nothing.


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## Wystan (May 25, 2005)

I resemble this remark.... (Just happen to have been a non-active Massive Lurker) (like 6 out of 8 hours Mon-Fri)


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## Henry (May 25, 2005)

Next time you look at the post count, look also at the Join Date - it can be quite telling whether it's new members or long-time members who just choose their words carefully, unlike blabbermouths like me.


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## reveal (May 25, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Next time you look at the post count, look also at the Join Date - it can be quite telling whether it's new members or long-time members who just choose their words carefully, unlike blabbermouths like me.




I've been too lazy to click on their name to see their Join Date.


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## Desdichado (May 25, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I've been too lazy to click on their name to see their Join Date.



You do realize that it's right there next to the postcount; you don't have to actually click on anything, right?


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## James Heard (May 25, 2005)

I'd hate to be classified as a newbie here, just because I haven't hit 1,000 yet. I think my post count doubled recently because I started playing PbPs here, but before that it was like, "Eh, why bother?" most of the time. I get my single voice in the ether shout-out in other places mostly.


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## reveal (May 25, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> You do realize that it's right there next to the postcount; you don't have to actually click on anything, right?




YES. I've always known it was there. I was just... testing you.


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## smootrk (May 25, 2005)

You do realize that eliteist attitudes are probably the biggest reason that newer folks do not post? They lurk and lurk, sometimes never joining the fray.

I know. I have been playing since almost the beginning of time it seems, but have only recently added my 2 cents on any topics. 

btw - Having high post count does not necessarily mean any sort of credibility or knowledge... it only indicates someone who talks alot. In the geekish world of computers, rpg's, books, astonomy, jeapordy, I have noticed many who spout opinions as if they are facts for everyone else. 

Post counts could be removed in my opinion, as they only add to the eliteist feel of these boards.

No Offense is meant by my remarks.  I am talking in generalities, not about any one individual.


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## Desdichado (May 25, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> YES. I've always known it was there. I was just... testing you.



Ah, good.  I passed, I assume.


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## Desdichado (May 25, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> No Offense is meant by my remarks.  I am talking in generalities, not about any one individual.



Although they could very well apply to me.    

At least my elitism isn't based on my postcount; it's only been the last few months that I considered that I actually had a high postcount.  I'm just an insufferable arrogant bastard.

Or at least I come across as one.


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## Nifft (May 25, 2005)

We need the new folks.
It's well known that the Lich-Queen Crothian eats the soul of anyone whose post count exceeds 4k.

 -- N


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## Crothian (May 25, 2005)

I figuyred it was just getting nice and warm out, so all the gamers came inside.....


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## Crothian (May 25, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> We need the new folks.
> It's well known that the Lich-Queen Crothian eats the soul of anyone whose post count exceeds 4k.
> 
> -- N





it's well known * now*!!  can't anyone keep a secret?


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## SpiralBound (May 25, 2005)

I doubt that there's much of a mystery or external influence at work.  It's more likely that you yourself have finally begun noticing the natural conversion of lurkers into posters that happens on most boards. I've been here for "a while", lurking, usually.  Most days, there's nothing _very little_ interesting enough for me to comment on.  When there is, I post. I expect that many of the "new people" you're noticing are in the same category as I am.  Either that or it's yet another Amish Internet Conspiracy!


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## Knight Otu (May 25, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> We need the new folks.
> It's well known that the Lich-Queen Crothian eats the soul of anyone whose post count exceeds 4k.
> 
> -- N



So _that_'s the strange feeling I'm having...



> Post counts could be removed in my opinion, as they only add to the eliteist feel of these boards.



Possibly, though apparantly they are also useful for the mods in a "That Otu guy should know better with his ton of posts that to do THAT!" way.

Knight "Not that I'd DO that" Otu


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## Galethorn (May 25, 2005)

I have to agree that there's a certain amount of elitism among those with the 4-5 digit postcounts, and that such a thing isn't healthy for the forum...

So, I think it should be replaced by elitism among those of us who have been here long enough to remember what it was like back in the old days...

When men were men, and the shaftedness of rangers was the main item of contention!

Or not.

On a semi-related note to those with low postcounts; join PbP games here on the forums when they show up; I have yet to see a faster (productive) way of building up posts.


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## reveal (May 25, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Although they could very well apply to me.
> 
> At least my elitism isn't based on my postcount; it's only been the last few months that I considered that I actually had a high postcount.  I'm just an insufferable arrogant bastard.
> 
> Or at least I come across as one.





Let's see....

Insufferable? Check!
Arrogant? Check!
Bastard? Check!

Congrats on your new title!


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## reveal (May 25, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> You do realize that eliteist attitudes are probably the biggest reason that newer folks do not post? They lurk and lurk, sometimes never joining the fray.




Not trying to be elitise here. 

But I have noticed that, in the last month or so, there are a lot more people with postcounts in the single- or low double-digit range than I remember ever seeing before. But seeing how I can't even remember what I had for lunch yesterday, that's not saying much.


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## smootrk (May 26, 2005)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Possibly, though apparantly they are also useful for the mods in a "That Otu guy should know better with his ton of posts that to do THAT!" way.
> Knight "Not that I'd DO that" Otu




I agree that the mechanism for post counts is vital to admin of the site. I only see the post counts as stifling newbies from speaking out on topics. After all, why take anyone seriously if they only have 50 posts to their name... they obviously aren't serious about their hobby  (sarcasm). The post count could easily be viewable by staff members, yet ommitted for the rest to help promote inclusion of the newbies.

This opinion is not just a personal rant, I study psychology and motivational techniques. Techniques like the post count only fuel personal ego's (much like the 'levels' we all love, but without the added abilities). They do nothing for promoting free dialog on subjects.


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## BOZ (May 26, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> Having high post count does not necessarily mean any sort of credibility or knowledge... it only indicates someone who talks alot.




quoted for truth.


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## Angel Tarragon (May 26, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> Having high post count does not necessarily mean any sort of credibility or knowledge... it only indicates someone who talks alot. In the geekish world of computers, rpg's, books, astonomy, jeapordy, I have noticed many who spout opinions as if they are facts for everyone else.



Interesting.


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## Knight Otu (May 26, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> This opinion is not just a personal rant, I study psychology and motivational techniques. Techniques like the post count only fuel personal ego's (much like the 'levels' we all love, but without the added abilities). They do nothing for promoting free dialog on subjects.



Indeed. I often feel ignored in discussions outside of certain forums here. 

But yes, post count doesn't do anything good for the average poster beyond feeling good, and some minor recognition.


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## reveal (May 26, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> This opinion is not just a personal rant, I study psychology and motivational techniques. Techniques like the post count only fuel personal ego's (much like the 'levels' we all love, but without the added abilities). They do nothing for promoting free dialog on subjects.




So you tell us that you study psychology and, therefore, can recognize that postcount's only "fuel personal ego's" but you _also_ tell us that "In the geekish world of computers, rpg's, books, astonomy, jeapordy, I have noticed many who spout opinions as if they are facts for everyone else."  Just an observation.


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## reveal (May 26, 2005)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Indeed. I often feel ignored in discussions outside of certain forums here.
> 
> But yes, post count doesn't do anything good for the average poster beyond feeling good, and some minor recognition.




The operative word being _minor_.


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## Knight Otu (May 26, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> The operative word being _minor_.



Indeed. I find it very likely that Sepulchrave is better known than many posters with a 4000+ postcount.


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## Desdichado (May 26, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Let's see....
> 
> Insufferable? Check!
> Arrogant? Check!
> ...



Hey, I'm discovered!


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## smootrk (May 26, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> So you tell us that you study psychology and, therefore, can recognize that postcount's only "fuel personal ego's" but you _also_ tell us that "In the geekish world of computers, rpg's, books, astonomy, jeapordy, I have noticed many who spout opinions as if they are facts for everyone else." Just an observation.




Kinda hard to talk into a forum without making some judgements or assumptions or stating an opinion.

I am part of that geekish world, just ask my wife.  I should have clearly stated that this is also an opinion on the mannerisms of many of the intelligent folks who play rpg's.  Nuclear Engineering was the field of study for me (in the US Navy) and believe me.... many of the superior intellect people who understood the inner workings of the fleet were still socially inept.  Many (opinion again) only had any authority or recognition based on time in rank, not for their great leadership abilities (much like Post Counts go up over time, regardless of any insight or knowledge).

My opinions just represent my views on the subject.  My father told me a proverb once:

Opinions are like a**holes.... everybody has one.  Yep... I got one too.

(still no offense taken or meant to be given by my views, they are only meant to address how a simple change in the nature of this website could help promote more inclusion by newer people.)


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## HellHound (May 26, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> We need the new folks.
> It's well known that the Lich-Queen Crothian eats the soul of anyone whose post count exceeds 4k.
> 
> -- N





DAMN!

That's where the bloody thing went. I just figured I had misplaced it last week when Dextra was really sick and the house started falling apart... figured I'd find it sooner or later, under the counter, or maybe between the couch cushions, or perhaps next door at my parental units' abode.

Just my luck that the Lich Queen ate the bloody thing.

Now what am I going to sell to the devil to make my next book award-winning?


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## reveal (May 26, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> ...they are only meant to address how a simple change in the nature of this website could help promote more inclusion by newer people.)




One thing I've always loved about this board is inclusion. Yes, there are a few people who are buttheads but, in general, people here are very understanding. For example, I see a lot of the same questions posted over and over. Rather than yell at them for being a "tard," or some other flameboy name, most people either answer the question or politely point them to where they can find a better answer (i.e. "You should have posted this in X forum"). 

In general, however, I definitely agree with you. There are a lot of message boards out there where people feel they deserve the right to be a butthead simply because they have been using it longer than others.


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## Angel Tarragon (May 26, 2005)

Hey, reveal, how is that coffee that you're drinking?


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## reveal (May 26, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Hey, reveal, how is that coffee that you're drinking?




I'm almost to the point where I can move faster than time.


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## Angel Tarragon (May 26, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I'm almost to the point where I can move faster than time.



when you get to that point, let me know. You'll be more efficient at getting things to where they need to be that the postal service and UPS combined!


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## HellHound (May 26, 2005)

Galethorn said:
			
		

> I have to agree that there's a certain amount of elitism among those with the 4-5 digit postcounts, and that such a thing isn't healthy for the forum...




Totally!

I never reply nor quote anyone with a post-count in the three digits or less. 

I actually tend to disagree regarding the elitism thing. There may be a small amoutn among SOME of the users in question, but the vast majority or the 1k+ posters are just talkative, not elitist.


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## Lady_Acoma (May 26, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> it's well known * now*!!  can't anyone keep a secret?




Keep a who's it?  And considering I only post in Off Topic I think I am safe from you forever or something...Yay for me!


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## reveal (May 26, 2005)

HellHound said:
			
		

> I actually tend to disagree regarding the elitism thing. There may be a small amoutn among SOME of the users in question, but the vast majority or the 1k+ posters are just talkative, not elitist.




We just don't know when to shut the heck up!


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## smootrk (May 26, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> In general, however, I definitely agree with you. There are a lot of message boards out there where people feel they deserve the right to be a butthead simply because they have been using it longer than others.




I don't mean to say that there is much flaming or bashing here.  I find the forums to be very well behaved in general... much better than other avenues.

I was just speaking my opinion on the nature of ' inferiority complexes  ', however minor, that the newer people have when attempting their first posts.

Speaking statisticly, if only 10% did not feel comfortable sharing their views, I would consider it a problem.  That's 100 out of the approximately 1000 who are on the site at any one time.  In my opinion, even a 1% failure rate is something that could be addressed as a problem.  If the site admin looks at the situation like that, maybe they could see the logic of hiding the post count.  They could still have the it visible for individuals own post count, or all post counts for site admin, and still in-visible to the rest.


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## reveal (May 26, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> You'll be more efficient at getting things to where they need to be that the postal service and UPS combined!




That's not really saying much, is it?


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## reveal (May 26, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> Speaking statisticly, if only 10% did not feel comfortable sharing their views, I would consider it a problem.  That's 100 out of the approximately 1000 who are on the site at any one time.  In my opinion, even a 1% failure rate is something that could be addressed as a problem.  If the site admin looks at the situation like that, maybe they could see the logic of hiding the post count.  They could still have the it visible for individuals own post count, or all post counts for site admin, and still in-visible to the rest.




I'm not sure hiding the post count would do much. The whole point behind this thread is I've seen a large influx of new posters. If keeping the post count visible is supposed to keep some people from posting, I don't think those people are on ENWorld.


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## DaveStebbins (May 26, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> I agree that the mechanism for post counts is vital to admin of the site. I only see the post counts as stifling newbies from speaking out on topics. After all, why take anyone seriously if they only have 50 posts to their name... they obviously aren't serious about their hobby  (sarcasm).



It must be sarcasm, becasue I don't ever remember seeing an attiitude like that expressed on these boards. I lurked for a couple years before I started posting and I did feel a little intimidated, but not by other poeples' postcounts. Perhaps reasons for low postcounts are as varied as the people who have them. I like seeing postcounts, even though I'm still way down on page 19 on the postcount list.

-Dave
(Oops, I just checked and have recently moved up to page 17. I must be posting more often now that I am comfortable in doing so. Woohoo, page 17! I'm almost in the top 500. I'm _*SOMEBODY*_ now! In your face everyone on page 18 or higher!)


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## smootrk (May 26, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I'm not sure hiding the post count would do much. The whole point behind this thread is I've seen a large influx of new posters. If keeping the post count visible is supposed to keep some people from posting, I don't think those people are on ENWorld.




I sorta dis-agree.  Anything that quiets or even remotely restrains individuals from joining dialogs is something that can be addressed and a fix can be attempted (again; I am spouting those opinions again).  Anything that encourages more views, opinions, and experiences to be shared is going to be a good thing for the whole community.


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## Psionicist (May 26, 2005)

I visit many online message boards, including computer game forums where the average member is 16 years old or something like that. I dont know how it happened or why, but ENW is by far the _worst_ forum I know of when it comes to post-count-centrisim (if thats a word ). There are more discussions about post counts, more threads about "hey, look at my post count", and more jokes about members with high post counts on this forum than any other I've seen. On the other hand, ENW is better in all other areas and respects such as friendliness, intelligence, language etc.

Anyone have a theory about this? I think its weird.


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## smootrk (May 26, 2005)

DaveStebbins said:
			
		

> It must be sarcasm, becasue I don't ever remember seeing an attiitude like that expressed on these boards. I lurked for a couple years before I started posting and I did feel a little intimidated, but not by other poeples' postcounts. Perhaps reasons for low postcounts are as varied as the people who have them. I like seeing postcounts, even though I'm still way down on page 19 on the postcount list.
> 
> -Dave
> (Oops, I just checked and have recently moved up to page 17. I must be posting more often now that I am comfortable in doing so. Woohoo, page 17! I'm almost in the top 500. I'm _*SOMEBODY*_ now! In your face everyone on page 18 or higher!)




This is what I was just trying to illustrate... having the low number, and thus feeling somehow inferior because of it, and holding back.

btw - I do enjoy seeing my own post count go up.  Fuel for my own ego.  Just don't need to see anyone else's post count... not productive for sharing.


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## reveal (May 26, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> This is what I was just trying to illustrate... having the low number, and thus feeling somehow inferior because of it, and holding back.
> 
> btw - I do enjoy seeing my own post count go up.  Fuel for my own ego.  Just don't need to see anyone else's post count... not productive for sharing.




What he said was "_and I did feel a little intimidated, but not by other poeples' postcounts._" So it actually goes against what you are saying. He didn't post and did feel intimidated but not by other people's postcounts.

I admit I was a little intimidated when I first started posted but only because of all the other "elitist" boards you talk about. I was afraid that every other thread on here was going to be a flamefest, like they are so many boards, WOTC's included. And while I have seen my share of them on here, it's rare.

Edit: BTW Dave, I'm on page 10 so


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## smootrk (May 26, 2005)

The point I am failing to illustrate correctly is that any situation, statistic, personal feeling, etc. that causes someone to feel that their opinion is not worthy of sharing is something that can be addressed to correct. All should be encouraged at all levels to feel free to comment. It is likely an un-attainable goal but endeavoring to try is something the community should try to move towards (much like world peace). 

I doubt I would bring up topics like this if it wasn't such a status symbol for the post count to be high. Just browsing through a sampling of the forums will likely lead to someone commenting on post-count of someone (mostly references to the almighty Crothian.


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## Desdichado (May 26, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> The point I am failing to illustrate correctly is that any situation, statistic, personal feeling, etc. that causes someone to feel that their opinion is not worthy of sharing is something that can be addressed to correct. All should be encouraged at all levels to feel free to comment. It is likely an un-attainable goal but endeavoring to try is something the community should try to move towards (much like world peace).



At some point, though, you have to cut bait and say, "look, if this makes you feel inferior, you need to grow a real skin, step up, and stop blaming other things for your problems."  You can never make everyone happy, so trying _too_ hard to reach that last 2%, or whatever the number happens to be, usually just ends of alienating everyone else.

I'm not saying that postcount is that point, though.  Postcount is hardly important, and we could certainly do without seeing it, and it wouldn't really make too much difference.  But a lot of folks find it interesting, and I'd wager that more people find it interesting than find it intimidating.  Although there's a lot of joking talk about postcount, ribbing of Crothian, "hey, congrats to me for hitting 1000" threads and the like, it's just more like an in-joke than anything else.  I don't think anyone takes postcount seriously around here; at least not anyone who's in the really high numbers.


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## Nifft (May 26, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone takes postcount seriously around here; at least not anyone who's in the really high numbers.




... but you must admit it is fun to call the little ones "Pre-K". 

 -- N


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## Goblyn (May 26, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> ... but you must admit it is fun to call the little ones "Pre-K".
> 
> -- N




:: that rolling, laughing smiley because I think what you said is funny ::

I think 'tard' sounds funny.

Goblyn's postcount = Goblyn's postcount + 1


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## wingsandsword (May 26, 2005)

Y'know, it's a *good* thing there are so many new people around here.  It means the site is getting fresh blood, and is an indicator that the hobby is growing and well.  We should be a lot more worried if we never see anybody new, and _all_ the posters have been here for years and have zillions of posts.

But post count isn't all it is cracked up to be.  As was pointed out, the join date is also important.  Lots of people are lurkers who may register and never post, or even never register then suddenly sign up one day to post on a thread that gets their attention (or they really want to say something).  They'll look like a total newbie, but have been reading for months or years.  

However, even as one with a lowly ~400 post count, I don't mind them there and don't want them removed.  It's just part of the local culture, and I do find it somehow amazing just how many posts some people here have made.


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## Henry (May 26, 2005)

I really hope that no one EVER lets something as innocuous from postcount prevent them from posting. It's never stopped me at NTL, Green Ronin, Kenzer, Malhavoc, Dragonsfoot, WotC, RPGnet, Dumpshock, and Alderac before! I might have 50 posts at each one of them over the years, because I don't have time to be everywhere (probably shouldn't be as many places as I am! )


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## JoeBlank (May 26, 2005)

As an insufferable, arrogant bastard once said:



			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> At some point, though, you have to cut bait and say, "look, if this makes you feel inferior, you need to grow a real skin, step up, and stop blaming other things for your problems." You can never make everyone happy, so trying _too_ hard to reach that last 2%, or whatever the number happens to be, usually just ends of alienating everyone else.




Any social situation is going to require some intiative for a new person to break in, be it a party, a new job, or school. This place has been around for a while, so if someone is just joining the conversation then it is well known that he or she is talking to an established group, many of whom already know each other well. That is just a fact of life, and we are all responsible for overcoming that barrier, if we so desire.

In my experience, the only thing close to elitism I see on EN World, or talking down to newbs, comes when someone jumps in and makes repeated and obvious errors, such as rogue/rouge, or just does not seem to take the time to think though a statement before making it. Even when posts make little sense, I see people trying to help, asking for more info, etc.

The vast majority of folks around here are well aware that the vast majority of gamers never visit this place, and yet know the game well and have opinions and thoughts that might benefit all of us. Come, be welcome, and share what you have to offer.


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## diaglo (May 26, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> I really hope that no one EVER lets something as innocuous from postcount prevent them from posting. It's never stopped me at NTL, Green Ronin, Kenzer, Malhavoc, Dragonsfoot, WotC, RPGnet, Dumpshock, and Alderac before! I might have 50 posts at each one of them over the years, because I don't have time to be everywhere (probably shouldn't be as many places as I am! )





ditto.

i've always been an advocate of removing post count from any forum.

even tho, i have ...thousands of posts on all those forums.


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 26, 2005)

I am going to counter the arguement that postcount only serves to intimidate new users or creates an elitist attitude.  What I have seen is that most of the people here are willing to cut a person with a low postcount a little more slack and maybe be a little easier on them.  

If a person with 5k posts starts up a thread that has been done to death, that person is probably going to get some flak for starting the arguement again, but a person asking the same question who only has 30 posts will probably find that people are more than willing to offer up their opinions without too much snarkyness, and maybe will direct them to a prior thread.  

As for a lot of new or low post count users, maybe somebody recently posted a link to EN World that is drawing in some new traffic.


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## diaglo (May 26, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> As for a lot of new or low post count users, maybe somebody recently posted a link to EN World that is drawing in some new traffic.




many colleges and at least here in ga high schools are out for summer break.


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## Wystan (May 26, 2005)

I like getting my postcount higher, and I like having people to base it against.


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## MonsterMash (May 26, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Y'know, it's a *good* thing there are so many new people around here.  It means the site is getting fresh blood, and is an indicator that the hobby is growing and well.  We should be a lot more worried if we never see anybody new, and _all_ the posters have been here for years and have zillions of posts.
> 
> But post count isn't all it is cracked up to be.  As was pointed out, the join date is also important.  Lots of people are lurkers who may register and never post, or even never register then suddenly sign up one day to post on a thread that gets their attention (or they really want to say something).  They'll look like a total newbie, but have been reading for months or years.



Kind of like me - I spent a long time here as a lurker before really starting to post frequently around september/october last year and then becoming the unstoppable torrent of verbiage that I am now   

On the other RPG boards I tend to visit (necromancer games) I've got a much higher post count - there there is a system of ranks based on post count and custom titles, but that is a smaller community than here so has a different feel - there are something like 1/20th of the amount of posters registered than at ENWorld so the active regulars are many less than here and it does feel different (not better or worse so much as different).


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## Raging Epistaxis (May 26, 2005)

One more long time lurker here who has just recently peeked out of his shell a bit to post some.  Until about a year ago, I had less than twenty posts, but have been reading news and lurking here since near the inception of this site (and a bit before even).

Now I find myself reading and posting less and less due to RL business.  

That and my two favorite story hours haven't updated in a while.  Well, ok, Zad did the other day, but PC still hasn't.  Not that I'm really complaining, just pointing out a reason for visiting less.

Elitism?  Nah, not so much here as other boards.  I like the community/tone here.  Best of the breed, if you ask me.  Mentions of postcount tend to be in-joke kidding, tongue-in-cheek stuff mostly IMO.

R E


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## the Jester (May 26, 2005)

I have never found ENWorld to be 'elitist,' and I like postcounts, personally.

One way to see how we treat newcomers is to look at the 'hi, I'm new' threads that come up from time to time.  There are usually tons of people who chime in to welcome the new folks.


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## mojo1701 (May 26, 2005)

I usually see others' higher post counts (esp. when I myself was a newbie) as something to strive for.


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## Nifft (May 26, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> I have never found ENWorld to be 'elitist,'




That's because you don't hang out with the _cool_ kids.

 -- N


----------



## Cutter XXIII (May 26, 2005)

I don't care much about postcount.

I dumped a former screen identity with @ 3,000 posts, because I felt the name had become synonymous with rampant smart-assery. And why should I carry the yoke of my own former smart-assery? 

So I bought a CommSup account and decided to be very Undude.


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## Temprus (May 27, 2005)

There are also many of us Long Time Lurkers that might have been more active in the pre-EN World days or such. If we had not changed servers/hosts so many times in the early days, I might have a decent post count still.    What I lack in post count, I make up for with member number!


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## Emiricol (May 27, 2005)

I don't believe I've ever been intimidated by a post count.  A high postcount either means they are on a community project (no problem there), play by post games (again, no problem there), or they talk alot (in which case they are Crothian, heh).  So, it's either no problem or it's Crothian 

I do, however, believe that post-count envy is a silly reason not to post.  It suggests  that post counts matter to that person.  Most of the folks here just don't care and I've never seen post count brought up as more than a joke.  Part of the culture here, if you will.

Kind regards,

-Emiricol


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## devilbat (May 27, 2005)

I've always found that EnWorld members are some of the most well mannered board users on the Internet.  I've been a lurker for the most part, with exception to the last month.  

I can't say that I'm intimidated by an individuals post count.  I'm sure many of those posts are "I agree", "me too" and the sort.  If anything is intimidating, it's the shear brilliance of so many of the people on these boards.  

The only elitist attitudes I have seen have been when novels are being discussed.  I am amazed at how many people feel the need to bash others for their likes and dislikes.  Salvatore and Greenwood may not be on my preferred reading list, but I'm not going to slam someone because they like Elminster and Drizz't.


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## Lady_Acoma (May 27, 2005)

I lurked for awhile before posting, and it wasn't the post counts or ribbing and joking about post counts that bothered me, it was the sheer size of ENWorld that I had to spend my time lurking to get over.  I actually liked and really appreciated the postcount discussions becaue they show a sort of family/friend feel for everyone here.  Except the ooze, nobody wants to be consumed by family, he doesn't count....


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## IronWolf (May 27, 2005)

The boards have always seemed very friendly to me.  We all started out at 0 post count at some point.  Just jump in and start chatting, the high post count people don't bite.  At least not yet.


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## HellHound (May 27, 2005)

IronWolf said:
			
		

> the high post count people don't bite.  At least not yet.




Wha?

Are oozes growing teeth?


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## Henry (May 27, 2005)

HellHound said:
			
		

> Wha?
> 
> Are oozes growing teeth?




You thought Crothian's avatar was an OOZE!

Silly -- it's a Gibbering Mouther.


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## Darrin Drader (May 27, 2005)

This thread is funny. Half the people who are posting to the boards these days I would consider new. Of course I've been here on and off since before the release of 3E.


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## Desdichado (May 27, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> You thought Crothian's avatar was an OOZE!
> 
> Silly -- it's a Gibbering Mouther.



I thought it was a slimy helmet...


----------



## helium3 (May 28, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> btw - Having high post count does not necessarily mean any sort of credibility or knowledge... it only indicates someone who talks alot. In the geekish world of computers, rpg's, books, astonomy, jeapordy, I have noticed many who spout opinions as if they are facts for everyone else.




Heh. That reminds me of the pimple faced 12 year old uber-geek I overheard last week while browsing mini-paints at the local game store. He was very loudly proclaiming his opinions regarding the motivations for and techniques behind using a sleeper-hold while engaging in unarmed combat. I kept chuckling to myself and thinking, "That's right pip-squeak. Besides your newly discovered genitalia, the only thing you've ever had in a sleeper hold is your little brother and your pet dog."

So, I totally know what you mean.


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## mojo1701 (May 28, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> btw - Having high post count does not necessarily mean any sort of credibility or knowledge... it only indicates someone who talks alot. In the geekish world of computers, rpg's, books, astonomy, jeapordy, I have noticed many who spout opinions as if they are facts for everyone else.




Gar! How could I forget astronomy? I took the damn course first semester! Don't forget medieval history.


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## pogre (May 28, 2005)

I proposed eliminating post counts for some of the reasons you stated a few years ago in Meta. The mods said  - "nah. We like to see if this is a noob post (innocent mistake) or a veteran wagging their stuff at the rules."

There are quite a few folks on here with less than 500 posts that I immediately check to see what they have to say. On the other hand, folks with high post counts are much more likely to be on folks' _ignore lists_.


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## Eeralai (May 28, 2005)

Lady_Acoma said:
			
		

> I lurked for awhile before posting, and it wasn't the post counts or ribbing and joking about post counts that bothered me, it was the sheer size of ENWorld that I had to spend my time lurking to get over.




That has been my problem too.  And also, by the time I get to a thread my opinion has been stated two or three times by other people, so I see no point in posting.  I like keeping track of post counts though.  Then I can tease my husband for being geeky with a high post count


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## Greylock (May 28, 2005)

All post count means to me is that, hopefully, when I am new to a forum folks might cut me a little slack until I have the forum customs, rules, some familiarity with local ashhats and/or grognards, and history down pat. In my case, that usually means I hit my "comfort level" around 30 or 40 posts wherever I may be. For me at least it's a warming up period. After that, I really don't give a dang about them.


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## Arc (May 28, 2005)

I've been lurking the site for a few years, and only created an account when I first felt that I really wanted to say something. In retrospect, I find that somewhat interesting, as once I created my account, I started posting constantly, chiming in with minor opinions and clarifications, and really putting in effort to get my postcount up. Once I hit 200 posts, however, I really slowed down. My early posting wasn't really representative of my natural verbosity, it was just my personal attempt to build up a decent amount of credibility as a poster, so that when I *did* post, I wouldn't be brushed off as a newbie.

I do enjoy seeing postcounts, however. It's nice to be able to look at a repeated question or hackneyed suggestion and write it off as a newbie post, instead of actually thinking it stupid. The counts grant a bit of forgiveness to new posters, and give some credibility to regulars.


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## Rystil Arden (May 28, 2005)

> I've been lurking the site for a few years, and only created an account when I first felt that I really wanted to say something. In retrospect, I find that somewhat interesting, as once I created my account, I started posting constantly, chiming in with minor opinions and clarifications




Same here.  And hey, low postcount doesn't mean you're a noob, and high postcount doesn't mean you aren't.  I'm a noob; look at my join date.  Soon, however, I will probably be on page 1.  Power to all the other noobs and lurkers out there!


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## DaveStebbins (May 28, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> What he said was "_and I did feel a little intimidated, but not by other poeples' postcounts._" So it actually goes against what you are saying. He didn't post and did feel intimidated but not by other people's postcounts.



He may have been referring my attempt at humor in the post script to my message, which he also quoted.



			
				reveal said:
			
		

> Edit: BTW Dave, I'm on page 10 so



Woohoo, Top 300! Good for you reveal!

The thing that I'm currently wondering is if I should start a thread to celebrate when I reach 1,000 posts... 

-Dave
OK, for those who may not know, I generally reply to every postcount milestone thread, so the last bit above is another one of those attempts at that humor thingie.


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## Crothian (May 28, 2005)

HellHound said:
			
		

> Wha?
> 
> Are oozes growing teeth?





			
				Henry said:
			
		

> You thought Crothian's avatar was an OOZE!
> 
> Silly -- it's a Gibbering Mouther.





			
				Joshua Dyal  said:
			
		

> I thought it was a slimy helmet...




You're all wrong!!  Its an ooze reading a book.....


----------



## Tolen Mar (May 28, 2005)

Geez, now I feel pathetic...

Ive been a member for the last several renditions of these boards and I only have about 200+ posts...

hmm...maybe Eric lost my post count once before Morrus took over..yeah thats it!


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## Crothian (May 28, 2005)

Tolen Mar said:
			
		

> Geez, now I feel pathetic...
> 
> Ive been a member for the last several renditions of these boards and I only have about 200+ posts...
> 
> hmm...maybe Eric lost my post count once before Morrus took over..yeah thats it!




That's what happaned to me.....

of courser I had under 100 posts at that point.  I'm a lurker at heart


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## Tolen Mar (May 28, 2005)

So I guess I fall in the veteran, just knows when to keep his mouth shut category.

Of course, like was said earlier, a lot of times by the time I decide to read a thread, my opinion is already stated and I just dont feel like being a "me 2!" kinda guy.

In fact, Im pretty sure I had more than 200 posts before one of the changeovers, so for me, and Im sure a few others, the number just isnt accurate.

(Maybe I should run through the forums and bump every thread...that'd boost my count... )


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## Knight Otu (May 28, 2005)

Tolen Mar said:
			
		

> (Maybe I should run through the forums and bump every thread...that'd boost my count... )



You'd have a lot to do with that. And the mods would propably not look kindly upon it.

The server change (I was only affected by one) did not really "hurt" me, in regards to posts, since I only had about 100 on the old server (and I never expected to have more than those here... must be the Crothian effect...).


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## jsewell (May 28, 2005)

SpiralBound said:
			
		

> I doubt that there's much of a mystery or external influence at work.  It's more likely that you yourself have finally begun noticing the natural conversion of lurkers into posters that happens on most boards. I've been here for "a while", lurking, usually.  Most days, there's nothing _very little_ interesting enough for me to comment on.  When there is, I post. I expect that many of the "new people" you're noticing are in the same category as I am.  Either that or it's yet another Amish Internet Conspiracy!



Same hear.  Hope those Amish haven't found my stash of DVDs....


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## Nifft (May 28, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I'm a lurker at heart




Where's that "World's Worst Lurker" title when it's needed?

 -- N


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## Crothian (May 28, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Where's that "World's Worst Lurker" title when it's needed?
> 
> -- N





got bored with it and moved on......


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## Nifft (May 28, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> got bored with it and moved on......




Now you've got DR 10/cold irony.

 -- N


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## Crothian (May 28, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Now you've got DR 10/cold irony.
> 
> -- N




its 15/ cold irony now, I took a feat


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## Nifft (May 28, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> its 15/ cold irony now, I took a feat




Oozen don't have feet, silly.

 -- N


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## Lady_Acoma (May 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> You're all wrong!!  Its an ooze reading a book.....




Eating or reading?


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## Crothian (May 29, 2005)

Lady_Acoma said:
			
		

> Eating or reading?




reading....oozes a big fans of books


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## fusangite (May 29, 2005)

I'm someone who makes use of post count statistics in that I am much more likely to respond to people with high post counts. And it's for a pretty simple reason; I want to know that what I am writing will (a) be read and (b) get a response.  The lower someone's post count, the less likely they are to read what I have bothered to write or respond to it.

But post count is a poor substitute, in my view, for having written something memorable. The biggest factor in whether I read or respond to someone's post is whether I can predict, based on their record here, that they will have something interesting to say, something worth debating.

As for this idea of elitism, how does this manifest? I don't understand, operationally, how people on message boards are elitist or non-elitist. I guess I just need some clarification there.


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## AntiStateQuixote (May 29, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> I'm someone who makes use of post count statistics in that I am much more likely to respond to people with high post counts. And it's for a pretty simple reason; I want to know that what I am writing will (a) be read and (b) get a response. The lower someone's post count, the less likely they are to read what I have bothered to write or respond to it.




Hm . . . this is interesting.  You are using post count as an indicator of the likelihood that someone will *read* your post?  That's a really poor indicator.  Using post count as an indicator that you will get a response?  Yeah, that makes sense.  I read an awful lot on these boards, but I don't post so much.  In fact, I didn't even get an account until very recently, but I've been lurking for a year or more.



			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> But post count is a poor substitute, in my view, for having written something memorable. The biggest factor in whether I read or respond to someone's post is whether I can predict, based on their record here, that they will have something interesting to say, something worth debating.




But how will you ever know if someone has something memorable or interesting to say if you don't read what s/he says because s/he has a low post count?



			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> As for this idea of elitism, how does this manifest? I don't understand, operationally, how people on message boards are elitist or non-elitist. I guess I just need some clarification there.




Actually, you have *perfectly* described yourself as acting in a way that I would consider the only brand of elitism that one can have on a message board: you *ignore* new users with a low post count.  Message boards are all about two-way broadcasting communication.  Being ignored on a message board is cyberspace ostracism.  What better way to illustrate your own superiority to the n00b than by ignoring his/her post and/or not responding to it?

[shameless-baiting]
In fact, based on your message, which I am quoting, it is unlikely that you will even *read* this post, much less respond to it, because my post count is low.
[/shameless-baiting]

Hm . . . interesting, I say.


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## Goblyn (May 29, 2005)

It kind of read that way to me, too, Brent.

Actually, when I first rea the thread title, I thought that there seemed to be something noticeably _different_ about the new people(What's with _those_ guys?).

Wait aminute ... I guess I'd be in this group of 'new' too, wouldn't I?

Look. I ramble pointlessly. Well, geez. I had something to say but forgot what it was. For once I was going to _meaningfully_ add to a conversation. Dammit.


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## BSF (May 29, 2005)

Actually, Fusngite would probably read it, but ht elikelihood of responding is lower.  

So am I a veteran?  Am I a blabbermouth?  I have noticed more new posters lately.  Unfortunately, some of them I have noticed because they are acerbic.  Others I have noticed because they give me pause to stop and really think.  Some of them I don't even really notice.  But for me it is all about join date as to whether they are new,  post count is a strange way to judge a new member.  Even join date is flawed since somebody can lurk for a long time without joining.  But I am glad to see new members because that means new conversations with new viewpoints.  That's always a good thing.


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## Lady_Acoma (May 29, 2005)

You know the way this topic has turned it is suddenly all about elitisim I myself post soley to the off topic threads pretty much because I know I am goofy and make inane useless posts most of the time in an attempt to make myself and others laugh.  But, whether someone has a high post count or later join date has nothing at all to do with how relevant their posts will be and looking at either to determine that without reading and judging for oneself is just, sorry, but idoitic.  More faces with more and varied ideas is a Very good thing for ENWorld and this convo is very much looking like something that is out to practically bash them.  If I were still lurking and saw this it would very much turn me off the site all together now and I don't think it is getting anyone anywhere because we are all going to hold our own opinions regardless.  I think that for the new people it should be the site as a whole that determines if they wish to join and if they wish to speak, and for the rest of us it is our own responsibility to listen to what they have to say and respect them for their ideas and respond where warranted. 

Thank you that will be the end of my somewhat frustrated ramble, I will now go back to bumping in another thread.


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## smootrk (May 30, 2005)

I stopped commenting on this topic for a little while because I wanted to see the opinions expressed.  I also thought that possibly I came off a little 'preachy' about it without really meaning to.

So far, there has been many who take little notice on post counts or like to see them for their own amusement, and I believe this is the majority of the folks out there.  I myself enjoy seeing my own post count.

But...  I have also noticed there are some who use post counts and join dates as measurments of the quality of advice.

While observing the posts, more interestingly, were the posts that seemed to say that the individuals needed to 'thicken their skin' or otherwise toughen up, if they want to be a part of a community of opinion sharing.

While the most interesting point is that with all the posts here, with all the opinions being shared, that everyone here is not that small minority that is uncomfortable in sharing their views....    great irony there.

Those folks who are not posting, are do exactly that....  not posting.  You won't see their opinion.  We should all do what we can to include all who have opinions that need to be shared.  I am one of those hopeless optimistic motivator types who thinks we can make changes that continue to improve this forum.


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## smootrk (May 30, 2005)

As a side note, take a look at how this particular individual was received while asking a question.
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=133784


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## Jdvn1 (May 30, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> As a side note, take a look at how this particular individual was received while asking a question.
> http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=133784



Yeah, I think that's due to a misunderstanding, though.

That happens sometimes, due to the nature of an all-text form of communication.


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## smootrk (May 30, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Yeah, I think that's due to a misunderstanding, though.
> 
> That happens sometimes, due to the nature of an all-text form of communication.




I only added it because right after my last post in this thread, I happened upon that thread.  I also see that the individual was trying to ask a question and at the same time be a little funny.  Apparently did not work.

It was posts later in that thread that I took notice of.


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## wingsandsword (May 30, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> I'm someone who makes use of post count statistics in that I am much more likely to respond to people with high post counts. And it's for a pretty simple reason; I want to know that what I am writing will (a) be read and (b) get a response.  The lower someone's post count, the less likely they are to read what I have bothered to write or respond to it.



Compared to many people here, I have a piddly low post count.  By the standards of most boards I visit, I would be the top poster there.  However, I make a point of keeping up with every thread I post to.  If I post something, I'm most likely looking for a response and I want to see if anybody has anything to say.

I, like many others lurked for years before even registering, and even then didn't start posting regularly for months.  I think part of the whole point of this thread is that post count and join date may be spiffy little stats, they are very imprecise measures of whether someone is likely to be knowledgeable, credible, or a good debater.


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## fusangite (May 30, 2005)

Brent_Nall,

You misunderstand. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I was talking about who I am most likely to reply to not who I am most likely to read.

I read every post in any thread I choose to read. But I tend to be presisposed to replying to (a) people who have written something interesting and/or (b) people who have high post counts. I don't skim threads. I read every word of them -- unless I join at page 8 or something based on an interesting and sudden turn it has taken.

If you think it's elitist to be reluctant to reply to uninteresting posts by people who may or may not ever turn up to engage in dialogue then I guess I'm an elitist. And, just to anticipate your next move (based on your above post), I'm not saying that low post count varies directly with boringness; I'm simply saying that it doesn't matter to me what a poster's count is if they have written something genuinely interesting.


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## fusangite (May 30, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Compared to many people here, I have a piddly low post count.  By the standards of most boards I visit, I would be the top poster there.  However, I make a point of keeping up with every thread I post to.  If I post something, I'm most likely looking for a response and I want to see if anybody has anything to say.



That's good to know. But I'm sure you'll agree that while there's no 1:1 correlation between this laudable behaviour and a high post count, there isn't zero correlation either. ANyway, glad to know this about you. I'll certainly factor that in when next I encounter you on a thread.







> I, like many others lurked for years before even registering, and even then didn't start posting regularly for months.  I think part of the whole point of this thread is that post count and join date may be spiffy little stats, they are very imprecise measures of whether someone is likely to be knowledgeable, credible, or a good debater.



I agree. Even a word count would give a different picture. But I'm not going to decide to ignore post count as one of the things I know about a poster, in the absence of other statistics. 

It seems like people are trying to polarize this debate into one side saying "post count means nothing" and the other saying "post count means everything." I'm not on either side if that's how you want to cut it. Statistics are useful in life; they don't tell the whole story or even most of it, but to suggest that post count stats convey no information whatsoever about a poster is just dead wrong. I'm simply honestly expressing how I factor someone's post count into my behaviour.


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## The_Gunslinger658 (May 30, 2005)

Hi-

I'm not a rabbid poster, but I do enjoy talking about RPGs. I'm also no stranger to board forums so I personally know better on what subjects to post or not to post. IE if I posted what are peoples thoughts on 1E vs 3.5 D&D then I would be trolling. Anyway, EN World is very freindly and I always enjoy hanging about and posting on things that interest me.
On the other hand, wargaming forums are the worst to post at, you support so and so's wargame company? your banned! Yup, it has happened, cross an old grognard and you will more then likely find yourself banned from said forum.
Kinda sad in a way, Wargames need new blood, yet, the online wargaming comminity is always at each others throats, heck, it drove me back into D&D just because I got so fed up with dealing with primma-donnas 24/7.
So RPG's friendly, Wargames not freindly   


Scott


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## AntiStateQuixote (May 30, 2005)

First, an apology: this is long and not necessarily interesting, but I started typing and just wouldn't stop.  So, stop reading now unless you want to hear me babble about elitism/group acceptance.



			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> You misunderstand. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I was talking about who I am most likely to reply to not who I am most likely to read.




Ah, I did misread . . . somewhat.  You only indicated you are less likely to reply to someone that has a low post count, not that you don't read what they say.  Cool.



			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> If you think it's elitist to be reluctant to reply to uninteresting posts by people who may or may not ever turn up to engage in dialogue then I guess I'm an elitist.




That's not exactly what I said . . . but it is close.  Basically, anytime someone posts to a message board they are attempting to evoke *some* response.  That's the beauty of message boards: we all get to have our say . . . and we prefer it if our say evokes a response because that's the only way we know anyone read what we had to say.

If a person with a low post count evokes few or no responses then that person is likely to feel that s/he is being ignored by the community that s/he is trying to join.  S/he may believe that s/he is ignored because the people on that board are elitists who do not pay attention to new members or people with low post counts.  This is especially so when the n00b sees that people reply a great deal to the members with high post counts.

Of course, long-term members with high post counts are likely to know other long-term members with high posts counts.  So, you respond to your friends/acquaintances more often.  It's only natural.

Is it reasonable for the n00b to feel that people ignoring him/her are elitists?  Generally, probably yes.  You said yourself that low post count is a factor (not the only factor) in deciding if you will respond to someone.  I'm sure others do and feel the same.  Does that generalization apply to *all* people that choose not to reply to a n00b?  Not at all.  Does that actually make you (or anyone) an elitist?  Not really, but it's the n00b's perception that matters in this case.  If the n00b believes that s/he is being ignored *because* s/he is a n00b then the n00b may feel like the long-term members are elitists . . . and they are somewhat.

Elitism is not necessarily a bad thing . . . it just has a screwy connotation in English (especially among Americans).  An elitist is one who believes s/he belongs to an elite group . . . that is, a superior part of society.  Even defined that way it sounds bad to most Americans.  Our egalitarian roots tell us that everyone is equal.  It's a simple fact that we are not all equal, and that some members of society (any society) are superior to others.

Now, members of the EN World society who feel that they are part of the "in crowd" or "long-timers/veterans" or "high post count crowd" are, by definition, elitists.  They believe they are part of a select (superior/elite) group within the larger EN World society.  If they choose to respond more often to other members of the elite group and often ignore the n00bs then they are acting on their elitism in such a way that n00bs will notice.



			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> And, just to anticipate your next move (based on your above post), I'm not saying that low post count varies directly with boringness;




Nicely said.  I think it's interesting that you are anticipating my "next move" as if we are involved in some sort of game/challenge/competition.  Isn't it cool how a simple exchange of words (you post, I reply, you reply) can so easily deteriorate into verbal combat?  I will admit that I purposely tried to provoke you previously.  Why?  Because I'm a n00b, and I want someone to *listen* to me!  But also I found what you were saying confirmed exactly what I already suspected . . . many EN World members don't respond to n00bs often because they are n00bs.  That's cool.  It seems natural, and your explanation of why you do so is reasonable

I'm really not trying to debate or provoke now.  I just felt like this thread specifically referred to *me *and that I should reply.  Your previous post (not the one I'm replying to now) also hit home with me as you said yourself that you use post count as a measure (not the only measure) to determine if you should reply to someone.  I'm not saying that's a bad thing.  I am saying that it has the potential to be a bad thing from a n00b's point of view. 

So, the post/reply/re-reply exchange is what makes messages boards so fun, and that's why everyone, especially a n00b, wants to get a response to their posts.  They want to know that their voices are heard, and the only way you know your voice is heard is if someone responds to you.  For a n00b a response indicates that someone is listening, and hopefully, that the n00b is being accepted into the community.



			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> I'm simply saying that it doesn't matter to me what a poster's count is if they have written something genuinely interesting.




I'm glad to hear that . . . I think.  Hopefully I've been interesting. 

In closing, if you elitists don't respond to this post then I will know that none of you likes me and you don't want me to be a member of the EN World community.


----------



## Tolen Mar (May 30, 2005)

You know all of this is an interesting debate, but you are all forgetting a very large group of posters.

People like me, who hardly ever looks at the post counts.  I read the threads, I respond to the ones that were interesting, I add my opinions.  Heck I even quote the more interesting posts, and you'll see I talk to noob and veteran alike.  

Its about what they say, not how often they've said it.

The only time I look at post count is when I want to know how many I have.  One day Ill break 300, I know I will.  Until then, Ill lurk around here more than I post.


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## fusangite (May 30, 2005)

Brent,

I think you are universalizing the idea of elitism to the point where it becomes meaningless. You are in danger of arguing that any system that distinguishes amongst people on any basis is essentially elitist. Now, I will agree that all systems are, by their nature, hierarchical. As Kenneth Burke opined, "if order, then hierarchy." All communities are ordered. All communities are hierarchical. But I wouldn't characterize all communities as elitist.

My idea of how ENWorld should work is merit-based. If you show yourself to be a reliable or interesting poster, you will get responses. The fact that it takes time and effort to demonstrate those things about oneself is characteristic of all merit-based systems. And I really object to the idea that all merit-based systems are elitist in character. 

If one wants a message board of quality, where most of the posts are worth reading and people are around to answer questions about things they post, the culture of the board should be meritocratic. And that's what we have, to a greater or lesser extent, here on ENWorld. 

In my view, it's not necessarily a good idea for new people to the board to feel that merely by showing up they will be treated the same as established posters. But it is a good idea for them to have the sense that if they contribute reliably and constructively, they will be. I think you're right that there is a problem if they feel that such treatment is beyond their reach; so perhaps we need to find ways to let people know that there is, if not equality, equality of opportunity.







> Nicely said.  I think it's interesting that you are anticipating my "next move" as if we are involved in some sort of game/challenge/competition.  Isn't it cool how a simple exchange of words (you post, I reply, you reply) can so easily deteriorate into verbal combat?



That's not always deterioration. Often people do their best and most creative thinking when forced to defend their ideas in an adversarial context. That's actually one of the things I like about ENWorld; people like Umbran and shilsen often force me to think things through very carefully that I would never reason-out were it not for the adversarial nature of clip and quote conversations.







> I will admit that I purposely tried to provoke you previously.  Why?  Because I'm a n00b, and I want someone to *listen* to me!



You see, I see this as evidence the system/culture of ENWorld works.


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## Nifft (May 30, 2005)

Gentlemen,

I'd suggest that such serious discussion has little or no place in Off-Topic, and I'd suggest that Meta might be a better place for it. The response you evoke has as much to do with your environment as it does with your content.

 -- N


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## AntiStateQuixote (May 30, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Gentlemen,
> 
> I'd suggest that such serious discussion has little or no place in Off-Topic, and I'd suggest that Meta might be a better place for it. The response you evoke has as much to do with your environment as it does with your content.
> 
> -- N




Agreed: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2289202


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## Desdichado (Jun 30, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> You're all wrong!!  Its an ooze reading a book.....



Oh, I know.  I'm one of those l33t guys who remembers when you starting using that avatar.


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## barsoomcore (Jun 30, 2005)

Hey, somebody let me know if pogre posts to this thread, okay? Oh, and can the mods provide the ability to put every poster with less than 1K posts on my ignore list? Thanks!


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## sniffles (Jun 30, 2005)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> I visit many online message boards, including computer game forums where the average member is 16 years old or something like that. I dont know how it happened or why, but ENW is by far the _worst_ forum I know of when it comes to post-count-centrisim (if thats a word ). There are more discussions about post counts, more threads about "hey, look at my post count", and more jokes about members with high post counts on this forum than any other I've seen. On the other hand, ENW is better in all other areas and respects such as friendliness, intelligence, language etc.




I beg to differ!     I'm a member of several other forums, and by far the worst is not this one.  Every day of the week there is a thread about someone's achieving "posting freak" status.  Of course, that forum is much smaller than this one, and those threads are generally in a humorous vein.  I think that even if the post count was removed, people would be looking for some way to differentiate themselves from other forum members.  Screen names and avatars never seem to be enough, and there is a natural human tendency to want to have some kind of superiority to others.

As an aside, I'm a relatively new member here and I seldom look at anyone's post count, including my own.


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