# SWORD COAST'S DM Tools



## TheSwartz (May 19, 2015)

I really can't wait for this game. I hope it lives up to the hype.


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## Rondor (May 19, 2015)

I worry that the secrecy means it either is not working right now or the ambitions could need to be reduced in some areas.


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## Jester David (May 19, 2015)

I'd be more excited if I didn't expect the DMing tools to be based around droves of micropayments. We already know you need to pay extra to unlock the behold, so I only imagine that'll be commonplace for many monsters.


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## I'm A Banana (May 19, 2015)

Jester Canuck said:


> I'd be more excited if I didn't expect the DMing tools to be based around droves of micropayments. We already know you need to pay extra to unlock the behold, so I only imagine that'll be commonplace for many monsters.




Yeah, that'd nuke the experience from orbit for me.

I mean, the copy all sounds fine and good, but there's precious little in the way of evidence, and this is something that a LOT of games have tried and failed at before. It's possible they've got it right this time, but personally, I'll need more than their say-so for it. Promises and assurances and advertainment aren't going to sell me. But I might be a tough sell.


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## Mephista (May 19, 2015)

Rondor said:


> I worry that the secrecy means it either is not working right now or the ambitions could need to be reduced in some areas.



 Nah, that's actually an older article.   The secrecy  is "marketing."  They're releasing teasers slowly.



Jester Canuck said:


> I'd be more excited if I didn't expect the DMing tools to be based around droves of micropayments. We already know you need to pay extra to unlock the behold, so I only imagine that'll be commonplace for many monsters.



 Supposedly, updates are going to be coming in form of storyline releases.   Base game is tied into the whole Demon-Underdark story we got coming up.  Each further update is supposedly going to be the next storyline, etc.  Basically, a whole list of updates that come in expansion form, it seems.

Neverwinter Online seems to be following the same model too.   We may need to buy each expansion (that's typical for this kind of game, though).


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## ZeshinX (May 19, 2015)

Until they actually show these wonderful features in action and prove this game is capable of all they have thus far suggested (but not promised, I recognize), then I consider them the boastful rookie studio (rookie in terms of RPGs released), and the game itself will be remarkably underwhelming (at launch anyway).

A game claiming to release approx. 3rd quarter of 2015 that still has yet to show its major features in any significant way?  While I'm sure some exist, there aren't many perspectives where that would be considered a good sign.

I suspect what we're going to see is the SP campaign (and MP coop-able with a DM) at launch, with the more comprehensive DM Tools (a la Campaign Creator) released at a much later time.


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## Jester David (May 19, 2015)

Mephista said:


> Nah, that's actually an older article.   The secrecy  is "marketing."  They're releasing teasers slowly.
> 
> Supposedly, updates are going to be coming in form of storyline releases.   Base game is tied into the whole Demon-Underdark story we got coming up.  Each further update is supposedly going to be the next storyline, etc.  Basically, a whole list of updates that come in expansion form, it seems.
> 
> Neverwinter Online seems to be following the same model too.   We may need to buy each expansion (that's typical for this kind of game, though).



I can imagine them releasing future storylines as paid DLC for players. But DMs are trickier, as they might want to use monsters or terrain not in the story for their own tales. And that's likely paid and could get pricey. It's already going to cost you $20 for a beholder...


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## Hand of Evil (May 19, 2015)

I just wonder about how it is going to compete against Fantasy Grounds.  Sure they are two different type of experience but could be problematic.


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## ehren37 (May 19, 2015)

Jester Canuck said:


> It's already going to cost you $20 for a beholder...




Is there a source for this? $20 is utterly insane and seems off even by the greediest microtransaction scale...


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## Jester David (May 19, 2015)

ehren37 said:


> Is there a source for this? $20 is utterly insane and seems off even by the greediest microtransaction scale...



If you pay an extra $20 for the digital delux version one bonus is a beholder for use as a DM. Along with some single player stuff. And they haven't said if the beholder will be available separately for a lesser cost. So it' snot *just* $20 for a beholder as you get some extra stuff, but if you just want to run a game it might as well be.


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## ehren37 (May 19, 2015)

Jester Canuck said:


> If you pay an extra $20 for the digital delux version one bonus is a beholder for use as a DM. Along with some single player stuff. And they haven't said if the beholder will be available separately for a lesser cost. So it' snot *just* $20 for a beholder as you get some extra stuff, but if you just want to run a game it might as well be.




Blech. Thanks for the info. Guess we'll see how usable this is without a ton of add-ons...


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## Mephista (May 19, 2015)

Jester Canuck said:


> I can imagine them releasing future storylines as paid DLC for players. But DMs are trickier, as they might want to use monsters or terrain not in the story for their own tales. And that's likely paid and could get pricey. It's already going to cost you $20 for a beholder...



 Special edition with some extras (note that you get special items like a Tome of Learning and a Cloak as well as the Beholder) for a price increase is also standard at release.    That's happened long before we had micro-transanctions.

Could they be in the game?  Sure.   Its possible.   However, the existence of a Delux Edition for pre-orders does not imply that they will either.  It proves nothing either way.


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## Mephista (May 19, 2015)

ehren37 said:


> Is there a source for this? $20 is utterly insane and seems off even by the greediest microtransaction scale...



https://swordcoast.com/preorder

Its not a microtransaction.   Its delux edition with a number of specials.   There's a difference.   Its also something that's been around for a while.

We don't have enough information yet.   It could go either way.   The truth is that we don't have enough information yet.


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## Jester David (May 19, 2015)

ehren37 said:


> Blech. Thanks for the info. Guess we'll see how usable this is without a ton of add-ons...



Okay, wanted to double check the math. $39.99 for the basic game (currently $34.99 pre-order) or $59.99 for the "digital deluxe pre-order pack". Which includes some items for the singleplayer campaign (Tome of Knowledge, Order of the Burning Dawn Cloak, Armor and Weapons) and some DM items (Beholder, Lost Mines dungeon tile set, and Wisp curson). Plus a couple forum badges and the digital soundtrack. 
Given this is a "pre-order pack" it likely won't be available post-release. But since the beholder and tile set are likely desirable, this means there's undoubtedly going to be microtransactions for tiles and monsters. So, yes, it will still be seen how useful the "DM mode" is without paying extra.



Mephista said:


> Special edition with some extras (note that you get special items like a Tome of Learning and a Cloak as well as the Beholder) for a price increase is also standard at release.    That's happened long before we had micro-transanctions.
> 
> Could they be in the game?  Sure.   Its possible.   However, the existence of a Delux Edition for pre-orders does not imply that they will either.  It proves nothing either way.



It's very unlikely that something you're paying for in the deluxe version will be free later. It's equally unlikely that something as iconic (and hard to sculpt and animate) as the beholder will be limited to pre-orders. So while this game looks to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights with a dash of DragonAge they might have a very limited toolset that you have to pay to fully utilize. 

We'll see. And the microtransactions *could* still be limited to really hard to program monsters and new content. And the program might be very expansive for DMs. But it's worrisome enough that I'm not preordering and waiting for reviews.


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## R_Chance (May 20, 2015)

D&D 5E. I bought 3 books for $100. Amazon, or it would have been $150. I'm ordering a second set of books. Just over $100 on Amazon. Another $14 iirc for the DMs screen. I don't buy the adventure paths (I have my own setting) or I could have sunk a couple of hundred more into it.  Starting with $59 for the deluxe version it would have to have a lot of add on / micro transactions to be "too expensive". The real question, for me, is will it be a good game. I'm cautiously optimistic about it...


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## Larac (May 20, 2015)

If I can not reskin models or add models, or add my own I will pass.

Having to wit for the Devs to release the monsters I want is just silly.


They should list out the next 3-5 Packs of monsters, and better be packs, not a single monster for 5-15 bucks.

Then allow community to build the stuff they are skipping, Win Win

But Marketing Things, please do not call them people, only see ways to squeeze money out of folks.
They will have all these spread sheets made up showing how the company can make Millions by having monsters at 10 USD each.

In 9 months the game will be mostly dead.

Give us tools and it will be selling for years.

Simple math but the liars from marketing win over the CEO


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## darjr (May 20, 2015)

$20 to get access to the beholder? Sure it's not the only thing in the 'delux' version but it sounds like something I don't want already.


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## ThirdWizard (May 20, 2015)

So here's what I need to even consider purchasing the DM Tools:


Powerful Scripting Language
Ability to add assets
Ability to influence NPC behavior (AI)
Tools for PC interaction with NPCs/objects
Ability to open single player campaign in creator (or at least all tools to recreate it)

Here are things I want that I could maybe live without:


Ability to create magic items
Ability to modify classes/races
Dynamically malleable world/tilesets
Ability to constantly save game state on a local server


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## Hand of Evil (May 20, 2015)

Would not be surprised to see them release "manuals".  You get the basic game, common monsters, then extras would be DMG to allow additional design and creation then a Monster Manual, and so on.  That is why I wonder about it being completion to Fantasy Grounds, figure this will be more computer game than desktop but will be watching to find out more.


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## Morlock (May 20, 2015)

> Okay, wanted to double check the math. $39.99 for the basic game (currently $34.99 pre-order) or $59.99 for the "digital deluxe pre-order pack". Which includes some items for the singleplayer campaign (Tome of Knowledge, Order of the Burning Dawn Cloak, Armor and Weapons) and some DM items (Beholder, Lost Mines dungeon tile set, and Wisp curson). Plus a couple forum badges and the digital soundtrack.
> Given this is a "pre-order pack" it likely won't be available post-release. But since the beholder and tile set are likely desirable, this means there's undoubtedly going to be microtransactions for tiles and monsters. So, yes, it will still be seen how useful the "DM mode" is without paying extra.




I'm just speculating, but offering a deluxe version that doesn't add much value as a way to get a 50% price bump from kids with deep pockets who want bragging rights (or are completists, whatever) seems like a good idea. I wouldn't hurry to judge a game's value, or the future value of its expansions, on this kind of thing.


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## Morlock (May 20, 2015)

> D&D 5E. I bought 3 books for $100. Amazon, or it would have been $150. I'm ordering a second set of books. Just over $100 on Amazon. Another $14 iirc for the DMs screen. I don't buy the adventure paths (I have my own setting) or I could have sunk a couple of hundred more into it. Starting with $59 for the deluxe version it would have to have a lot of add on / micro transactions to be "too expensive". The real question, for me, is will it be a good game. I'm cautiously optimistic about it...




I bought the 5e PHB, MM, DMG, and PotA $102 shipped. I came _this close_ to buying HotDQ, RoT, and the starter set for $59 shipped today, on a whim to satisfy completist urges. That would be about $165 for what I consider to be the complete line (I don't buy stuff like DM shields) so far. Thinking about what the extra $65 could buy me at DTRPG made me reconsider.

Maybe I just got lucky, but your experience doesn't map with mine.

That said, I agree with you, $60 bucks is not a lot to spend on a game that delivers on the replay promise of a NWN type toolset.


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## R_Chance (May 21, 2015)

Morlock said:


> I bought the 5e PHB, MM, DMG, and PotA $102 shipped. I came _this close_ to buying HotDQ, RoT, and the starter set for $59 shipped today, on a whim to satisfy completist urges. That would be about $165 for what I consider to be the complete line (I don't buy stuff like DM shields) so far. Thinking about what the extra $65 could buy me at DTRPG made me reconsider.
> 
> Maybe I just got lucky, but your experience doesn't map with mine.
> 
> That said, I agree with you, $60 bucks is not a lot to spend on a game that delivers on the replay promise of a NWN type toolset.




The retail of the 3 core books is $150. I did Amazon for $100 (roughly). I decided to pony up for a second set (another $100) from Amazon. I dismantle the DM shields and mount it on my own screen. It was (iirc) about $14 (BN for this one at the brick and mortar store). I don't buy adventures / adventure paths or the beginners box for that matter. Is it two adventure paths so far? 3 hardbacks? Plus the Beginner's set. I'm not sure what that would total... checked Amazon; retail $130, Amazon $88 currently (and roughly). That's the 2 Tiamat books and Princes of the Apocalypse plus the Starter Set.

On the up side the core 3 are down to about $75 total currently. Argh! $25 less than a couple of weeks ago. *sigh*

All assuming my bleary eyes are working properly (I'm grading final exams).


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## Morlock (May 21, 2015)

Yeah, in my case dropping the price was a good strategy, because it's the only thing that made me stop waiting and go ahead and buy. I saw all the core books for under $23 or 24 apiece and figured they're not getting much cheaper than that. Decent, used 3e core books + shipping aren't much less than that at their cheapest. The more I look at them, the more I like them, both the rules and the art (which isn't perfect, but I like more than the 3e dungeonpunk style).


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## TheSwartz (May 22, 2015)

ZeshinX said:


> Until they actually show these wonderful features in action and prove this game is capable of all they have thus far suggested (but not promised, I recognize), then I consider them the boastful rookie studio (rookie in terms of RPGs released), and the game itself will be remarkably underwhelming (at launch anyway).
> 
> A game claiming to release approx. 3rd quarter of 2015 that still has yet to show its major features in any significant way?  While I'm sure some exist, there aren't many perspectives where that would be considered a good sign.
> 
> I suspect what we're going to see is the SP campaign (and MP coop-able with a DM) at launch, with the more comprehensive DM Tools (a la Campaign Creator) released at a much later time.



Have you not watched the videos they've released months ago? Completely looks like a working game to me.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWP8GOixB74zWHiicg6yIaQ


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## TheSwartz (May 22, 2015)

ehren37 said:


> Jester Canuck said:
> 
> 
> > It's already going to cost you $20 for a beholder...
> ...



This is sort of misleading.

It's $20 difference between the regular and deluxe pre-order prices. There is more than just DM access to the beholder in that upgraded sku; albeit, yes you are paying for more DM tools, just that it's more than just the one thing.

https://swordcoast.com/preorder


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## TheSwartz (May 22, 2015)

Hand of Evil said:


> I just wonder about how it is going to compete against Fantasy Grounds.  Sure they are two different type of experience but could be problematic.



Absolute apples and oranges.

Fantasy Grounds is a virtual table top that supports D&D amongst other rulesets. In the instance of 5e, it then plays exactly the same as a tabletop 5e game (albeit virtually).

Sword Coast Legends is a party based, asymmetric competitive (4 member party vs 1 DM) action RPG based solely on D&D/Forgotten Realms. It is a video game adaptation of 5e and it's already discussed that it won't be an exact 1:1 version of the tabletop game.

Completely two different types of games.


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## Jester David (May 22, 2015)

ehren37 said:


> Blech. Thanks for the info. Guess we'll see how usable this is without a ton of add-ons...






DrGerm said:


> This is sort of misleading.
> 
> It's $20 difference between the regular and deluxe pre-order prices. There is more than just DM access to the beholder in that upgraded sku; albeit, yes you are paying for more DM tools, just that it's more than just the one thing.
> 
> https://swordcoast.com/preorder




Right now, if I'm planning to DM a multiplayer campaign on the Sword Coast, and want to involve Xanathar of Waterdeep, how much do I need to pay?


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## ZeshinX (May 22, 2015)

DrGerm said:


> Have you not watched the videos they've released months ago? Completely looks like a working game to me.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWP8GOixB74zWHiicg6yIaQ




Watched?  Yes, all of them, including today's Twitch one.  Have I seen anything remotely resembling the adventure creating DM Tools they've been suggesting?  Not even remotely.


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## Majoru Oakheart (May 22, 2015)

ZeshinX said:


> Watched?  Yes, all of them, including today's Twitch one.  Have I seen anything remotely resembling the adventure creating DM Tools they've been suggesting?  Not even remotely.



There's been hints of it.  I suspect from what they've said that there will be two methods of creating a campaign.  You can quick create a campaign by selecting small, medium, or large and a tileset and it will generator a "campaign" using that tileset with monsters appropriate for it.  Then, you can use the DM tools in order to modify the monsters and traps and NPCS on the fly by controlling them and making a story to go with them.

Then the second method, I suspect will work similar to Neverwinter Night's adventure creator from the answers they've given to questions.  You'll be able to make maps using tiles with a certain theme.  You can place monsters, traps, and NPCs.  You can use a basic scripting language to create dialog trees.

I suspect that the adventure creation tools are the last thing they are working on, mind you.  I have a feeling we are going to be looking at a post launch release of the tools for making adventures since they refuse to show them.

As for the rest of the concerns here, I believe that the large part of the extra cost of the Deluxe Edition is the tileset.  I'm guessing that the tileset includes new textures, new buildings, new decorations, and so on.  I'm guessing tilesets are going to be 10 or 15 dollars each.  The Beholder likely costs $5 or less.

I believe that both of them will be available for purchase separately.  But I do think that everything that comes with the Deluxe Edition will end up costing more than $20 total after the fact so that people who buy the Deluxe Edition don't feel ripped off.  However, if all you want is the DM stuff(the wisp, the tileset, and the beholder), I actually think it'll come to less than $20.


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## SkidAce (May 22, 2015)

I would have made adventure creations tools first...so I as the designer could use them.


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## ThirdWizard (May 22, 2015)

SkidAce said:


> I would have made adventure creations tools first...so I as the designer could use them.




As I recall, that's how it worked in NWN, and you could even open the single player campaign in the toolset. I am going to be _incredibly_ disappointed if I can't do the same in SCL.


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## Bluddworth (May 23, 2015)

Jester Canuck said:


> If you pay an extra $20 for the digital delux version one bonus is a beholder for use as a DM. Along with some single player stuff. And they haven't said if the beholder will be available separately for a lesser cost. So it' snot *just* $20 for a beholder as you get some extra stuff, but if you just want to run a game it might as well be.




It is quite a few extras for that $20:

Tome of Knowledge, Order of the Burning Dawn Cloak, Armor and Weapons, Beholder (DM use), Lost Mines dungeon tile set (DM use), Wisps (DM use cursors), Hero Forum Badge, DM Forum Badge, Game Soundtrack (Digital)

It is disingenuous to make the claim you are making.


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## Bluddworth (May 23, 2015)

I have to admit, SCL is by far my most anticipated game in years.  I'm hopeful that the Devs don't screw this up.


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## Burticusb (Jul 6, 2015)

Bluddworth said:


> I have to admit, SCL is by far my most anticipated game in years.  I'm hopeful that the Devs don't screw this up.




What they are offering for the current price point, I just don't see how they could disappoint... unless you allowed yourself to have ridiculous expectations for $35

I mean, people have paid much more than that for far worse games... Do you remember Brink, or how about something closer to home, Dragon Age 2... yeah, I wasn't impressed with either of those either...


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