# Dear WotC - You suck at names.



## Kunimatyu (Sep 26, 2007)

WotC,

You're great guys. I love all the changes I've heard about 4e so far, from encounter design, cosmology, points of light, PC mechanics -- the whole works.

However.

You are TERRIBLE at coming up with names. "Emerald Frost"? "Feywild"? "Shadowfell"? WTF?

Those are horrid, lame, pathetic names. Please find someone who can make non-terrible names. Or, if that's not possible, put up submission contests to come up with better ones.

All the best,
                 Kuni


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## fiddlerjones (Sep 26, 2007)

Oh I can totally come up with cool names.  I have this great method.
I take two fantasy sounding words and stick them together!  It works every time.


Also, I'm kidding.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Sep 26, 2007)

I can definitely get behind this initiative.

Actually, they could borrow the Magic the Gathering creative team for about six hours; they seem to have a limitless supply of awesome names that manage to sound both fantastic and believable.


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## Desdichado (Sep 26, 2007)

How about take your actual name, turn it backwards, and then tweak any letters that don't quite work?  Is that a good way to generate names?

Besides, the WotC method was "pioneered" by Ed Greenwood long before TSR folded.


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## Nifft (Sep 26, 2007)

fiddlerjones said:
			
		

> Oh I can totally come up with cool names.  I have this great method.
> I take two fantasy sounding words and stick them together!  It works every time.





			
				fiddlerjones said:
			
		

> ...




fiddlerjones

fiddler jones

Ha-ha! -- N


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## Aloïsius (Sep 26, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Besides, the WotC method was "pioneered" by Ed Greenwood long before TSR folded.



Not an english native speaker, but "shadowfell" sounds 10 time better than "evermeet".

feywild, however...


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## Nifft (Sep 26, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> the WotC method was "pioneered" by Ed Greenwood long before TSR folded.





			
				Hobo said:
			
		

> the WotC method was "pioneered" by *Ed Greenwood* long before TSR folded.



Greenwood

Green Wood

Ha-ha! -- N


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## Zurai (Sep 26, 2007)

I happen to very much like both Feywild and Shadowfell.


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## Lorthanoth (Sep 26, 2007)

Conversely if WoTC named the new planes things like "Vazgaldishan" or "frohertuin" then people would be up in arms about unpronouncable, nonsense names. The names are intended to be generic and evocative of the general theme/idea of a plane, or so I would guess. If you don't like them, then change them for your campaign. It's what we've all been doing for years. I bring to your attention "Geoff" and "Verbobonc".


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## Kunimatyu (Sep 26, 2007)

Lorthanoth said:
			
		

> Conversely if WoTC named the new planes things like "Vazgaldishan" or "frohertuin" then people would be up in arms about unpronouncable, nonsense names. The names are intended to be generic and evocative of the general theme/idea of a plane, or so I would guess. If you don't like them, then change them for your campaign. It's what we've all been doing for years. I bring to your attention "Geoff" and "Verbobonc".




I think they can come up with generic names that don't totally suck. Feywild ain't it, though.


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## Korgoth (Sep 26, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> WotC,
> 
> You're great guys. I love all the changes I've heard about 4e so far, from encounter design, cosmology, points of light, PC mechanics -- the whole works.
> 
> ...




"I, Wyvernfrost Stormwild, Naemlord of Hokeynaem, endorse this message."


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## Howndawg (Sep 26, 2007)

Let's face it, for every Tolkien or Burroughs who has a natural knack for naming stuff, there are 100 others who possess the linguistic talent of a wombat.  Unfortunately, fantasy fans have to deal with the 100.  Get over it, its a dark fact of life, like death and taxes.   

Howndawg


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## RPG_Tweaker (Sep 26, 2007)

Howndawg said:
			
		

> ... there are 100 others who possess the linguistic talent of a wombat.





Barglefopp Dinglepoop the mighty conquering wombat of Fuzzwarden Glade would take great offense at this comment.


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## dmccoy1693 (Sep 26, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Besides, the WotC method was "pioneered" by Ed Greenwood long before TSR folded.



I thought that was take a fantasy sounding word and stick "dale" on the end of it.


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## blargney the second (Sep 26, 2007)

Sorry, Kunimatyu, but I think you're totally off on this one.

1) They're mostly in english using regular words.  That means I can pronounce them.
2) There are no weird dipthongs.  This means I can pronounce them.
3) There are no apostrophes in weird places.  This means I can pronounce them.
4) There are no meaningless accents.  This means I can pronounce them.
5) There are no stupid extra h's to make it more fantasy-like.  This means I can pronounce them.
6) There are no poly-consonant strings that fit no known (or unknown) linguistics patterns.  This means I can pronounce them.

RPGs at the table are largely a verbal medium.  I want the transition from paper to vocals to be as easy as possible.
-blarg


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 26, 2007)

dmccoy1693 said:
			
		

> I thought that was take a fantasy sounding word and stick "dale" on the end of it.



Wrongdale!


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## The Little Raven (Sep 26, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> I think they can come up with generic names that don't totally suck.




Can you?



> Feywild ain't it, though.




Better than the overwrought melodrama of names like "Tarterian Depths of Carceri" or "Windswept Depths of Pandemonium."

I like portmanteau better than just a sentence trying to disguise itself as a name.


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## mhacdebhandia (Sep 26, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> You are TERRIBLE at coming up with names. "Emerald Frost"? "Feywild"? "Shadowfell"? WTF?
> 
> Those are horrid, lame, pathetic names.



Kunimatyu,

You're wrong and your complaints are silly.

Please find someone with better criticisms in mind to do your complaining for you.

All the best,

Chris.


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## Lackhand (Sep 26, 2007)

Just because you _CAN_ do worse is not an _EXCUSE_ to.

My guess is that if they just called the realms Faerie and the Dark Realm, or whatever, then we'd be complaining about bland names.

Nothing excuses the name, or idea, behind Emerald Frost, though. Golden Wyvern is almost as bad, to me. The others are okay, though!

Maybe we should come up with better names? I think the ground rules are:
1) no apostrophes.
2) Can't just use Faerie. Great for a home game, not evocative enough (go figure!) -- or specifically D&D enough -- to pass through.

I suggest the Nameless Land and the Green Realm, personally.

_Yarr. While I was trying to get my syllable count to match the originals, I became obsolete!_


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## Masquerade (Sep 26, 2007)

Zurai said:
			
		

> I happen to very much like both Feywild and Shadowfell.



Total agreement. Pronounceable, fittingly descriptive, and memorable.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 26, 2007)

Lackhand said:
			
		

> I suggest the Nameless Land and the Green Realm, personally.




Neither of those give the impression of a wild, faerie realm, therefore they're not very good names, IMHO.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Sep 26, 2007)

I direct your attention to a tiny sampling of Magic place names:

Keld
Llanowar
Mercadia
Phyrexia
Ravnica
Sarpadia
Shiv
Thran
Urborg
Yavimaya

I suppose Phyrexia (with the ambiguous 'y') and Llanowar (with the opening 'll') might be troublesome for some players, but most of them are easy to pronounce and distinctive, and WotC has been churning them out on a regular basis for over a decade.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 26, 2007)

So, let me get this straight...

Regular world = points of light

Feywild = no lights

Shadowfell = lights burned out


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## Shieldhaven (Sep 26, 2007)

Personally, I'm really pissed off that not everyone has exactly the same tastes in fantasy, science fiction, or ice cream. Once you all realize that you're absolutely stuck with whatever I like and you come to like it also, the world will be a better place.

...what?

I'm in the camp that likes Feywild and Shadowfell. I also like Shadowdale, but something happened in the last three years or so of FR development in which their name generators went totally pear-shaped and unpronounceable. Blumphgirgrim Umberbloundle or something. And I have no idea if there are any good ideas in Greyhawk, because I've been so utterly turned off by most of the names I've heard.

Fortunately, I've discovered the civ advance of Literacy and wrote my own campaign setting, with names that I like. Nations have names like Tanllwyr, Aetheland, and Eisenmark. (The first is only pronounceable for people who know a smattering of Welsh. This is by design, because I am a bastardloser.)

Haven


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## Lackhand (Sep 26, 2007)

Green Realm does to me, but perhaps only to me.

Clearly a reason why I'm not a paid D&D developer!

Feywild _does_ say "I'm a wild place where fey live" to me, of course, but I don't like the blatancy of it. Or rather, I'd like it if there were a name that did the same thing, but without being a portmanteau of what it's presenting.

Corellon's Realm? Eladrel? The Wilds? The Green? True Forest? Greensward? Feywood?

What I object to is that it doesn't look like a noun to me, a _place_, so much as a condition.
He gets +4 strength, +4 dexterity, because he's Feywild.

You know?


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## Lorthanoth (Sep 26, 2007)

@Lackhand - Ithaca is gorges, as the t-shirts say.

Back to your usual programming... I'm ambivalent towards the names. I always thought Underdark was a bit sucky, TBH.


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## lkj (Sep 26, 2007)

I like Shadowfell well enough. And I like Feywild well enough IF it's pronounced Fey'willed' rather than Fey Wild.

Don't know why. Just do. 

AD


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## kiznit (Sep 26, 2007)

I don't think people should be allowed to mock fantasy names unless they also explain what they think are _good_ fantasy names, so that the mocking can continue...


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## jgbrowning (Sep 26, 2007)

kiznit said:
			
		

> I don't think people should be allowed to mock fantasy names unless they also explain what they think are _good_ fantasy names, so that the mocking can continue...




Bob is a good fantasy name. Best of all, it can be Gygaxed as Bob as well.

joe b.


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## Wormwood (Sep 26, 2007)

Masquerade said:
			
		

> Total agreement. Pronounceable, fittingly descriptive, and memorable.




Add 'evocative' and you've nailed it for me.

The 4e names are a little more interesting than such gems as "prime material", "positive energy" and "border ethereal"


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## Cam Banks (Sep 26, 2007)

I want to name an astral dominion the Banefane. It'd be very awesome.

Cheers,
Cam


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 26, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> You are TERRIBLE at coming up with names. "Emerald Frost"? "Feywild"? "Shadowfell"? WTF?
> 
> Those are horrid, lame, pathetic names. Please find someone who can make non-terrible names. Or, if that's not possible, put up submission contests to come up with better ones.




As always with opinions, some may share them and many will not.

I'm like many others that think that they are fine with coming up with names. I think Shadowfell is great and Feywild is OK (I'll probably just use "faerie" or "Seelie" though).

I greatly prefer these to the nonsensical names which kept me away from Greyhawk all those years ago


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## Wormwood (Sep 26, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I greatly prefer these to the nonsensical names which kept me away from Greyhawk all those years ago




How can you not love names like Fruztii, Wegwuir, and Cruski?


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## cignus_pfaccari (Sep 26, 2007)

Shieldhaven said:
			
		

> Fortunately, I've discovered the civ advance of Literacy and wrote my own campaign setting, with names that I like. Nations have names like Tanllwyr, Aetheland, and Eisenmark. (The first is only pronounceable for people who know a smattering of Welsh. This is by design, because I am a [strike]bastard[/strike]loser.)




Lemmeguess...it's pronounced Bob?

Names are hard work, you know.

Brad


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## (contact) (Sep 26, 2007)

Masquerade said:
			
		

> Total agreement. Pronounceable, fittingly descriptive, and memorable.




+1

I really want the names for things in D&D to be evocative of the thing.  The Shadowfell and Feywild are _far_ better than names that might sound cool but impart no inherent meaning.


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## Desdichado (Sep 26, 2007)

kiznit said:
			
		

> I don't think people should be allowed to mock fantasy names unless they also explain what they think are _good_ fantasy names, so that the mocking can continue...



I think Kirin is a great fantasy name... because it's too weird for real life.


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## Mallus (Sep 26, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Wrongdale!



That's beautiful!

My next campaign is going start in Wrongdale, wherever that may be... and it'll probably involve the Pope of Wrongdale, or perhaps the Anti-Pope of Wrongdale...


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## kiznit (Sep 26, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> I think Kirin is a great fantasy name... because it's too weird for real life.



Speaking of, Ki-Rins better show up in the 4E monster manual or I'm going to have some choice words!


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## Reaper Steve (Sep 26, 2007)

I like 'Shadowfell.'
'Feywild' I wasn't too fond of until I realized I couldn't offer a better alternative. Using 'Faerie' or 'Green' is suboptimal because the place is so much more than faeries living in forests. The Feywild encompasses all climes (as it miirors the prime material) and much more than just faerie types. So, after I thought about it, I like it, too.


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## Merlin the Tuna (Sep 27, 2007)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> I direct your attention to a tiny sampling of Magic place names:
> 
> Keld
> Llanowar
> ...



The land of prison murder?

At any rate, I've been a fan of pretty much every name so far but Golden Wyvern.  Yes, even Emerald Frost.


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## Mark Chance (Sep 27, 2007)

Lorthanoth said:
			
		

> ..."Verbobonc".




Which brings me to one of the running gags from our current Greyhawk campaign:

"Verbobonc." "Manamana!"



But back on-topic: Yeah, these new names are pretty lame.


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## Remathilis (Sep 27, 2007)

fear the boot said:
			
		

> Note to would-be adventure authors: When making up names, note that the apostrophe is not some sort of universal stand-in for vowels. Stop doing that.




http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=16


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## Korgoth (Sep 27, 2007)

I actually think that "Shadowfell" is fine.  It's evocative enough.

There's something about the particular way that the portmanteau is employed in "Feywild", however, that makes it sound modern and bland.

For as much superstition and folk dread that probably surrounds Faerie and its encroachments, it might be better to go with something indirect... "Shadowfell" is also indirect because it's called Shadowfell and not Corpsetown or Graveburg.  It refers to the dead without actually invoking them.

So while even "Fey Realm" or "Fey Kingdom" would sound better to me than "Feywild", I think indirect reference would be better.  Just like the you refer to Fey as "The Little People" perhaps because you don't want to get their attention.  Likewise, I'd say go with something like "The Green Realm" or "The Near Kingdom" or something like that.

It's not a huge deal either way.


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## akaddk (Sep 27, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Those are horrid, lame, pathetic names. Please find someone who can make non-terrible names. Or, if that's not possible, put up submission contests to come up with better ones.



They tried that once. Now we're stuck with Eberron...


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## WhatGravitas (Sep 27, 2007)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> I direct your attention to a tiny sampling of Magic place names:
> 
> Keld
> Llanowar
> ...



Too true, too true. They gotta borrow Matt Cavotta for more than artwork! Some other samples of their names for locales/planes:

Amrou
Dominaria
Krosa
Lorwyn
Mirrodin
Otaria
Rath
Tolaria

Cheers, LT.


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## ColonelHardisson (Sep 27, 2007)

Lackhand said:
			
		

> Corellon's Realm? Eladrel? The Wilds? The Green? True Forest? Greensward? Feywood?




How about Faerie, which is well-known and accessible to newbs? Regardless, it's a fairly minor thing. I don't particularly like these new names, but I cane easily call 'em what I like.


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## RPG_Tweaker (Sep 27, 2007)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Shadowfell = lights burned out





Okay... how many wraiths does it take to change a light bulb?


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## Hairfoot (Sep 27, 2007)

RPG_Tweaker said:
			
		

> Okay... how many wraiths does it take to change a light bulb?



One wraith to hold the bulb, and a cleric to turn it.


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## Masquerade (Sep 27, 2007)

Hairfoot said:
			
		

> One wraith to hold the bulb, and a cleric to turn it.



Nice.


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## Xyl (Sep 27, 2007)

Shieldhaven said:
			
		

> Personally, I'm really pissed off that not everyone has exactly the same tastes in fantasy, science fiction, or ice cream. Once you all realize that you're absolutely stuck with whatever I like and you come to like it also, the world will be a better place.



Sig'd.



			
				Hobo said:
			
		

> I think Kirin is a great fantasy name... because it's too weird for real life.



Except for beer.

Fun fact: in additional to the mythological unicorn-like creature, "kirin" is also Japanese for giraffe.

You know, giraffe would be an excellent fantasy name if it wasn't taken...


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## Reaper Steve (Sep 27, 2007)

RPG_Tweaker said:
			
		

> Okay... how many wraiths does it take to change a light bulb?





			
				Hairfoot said:
			
		

> One wraith to hold the bulb, and a cleric to turn it.




Awesome...one of the better pieces of D&D humor evar!


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## RPG_Tweaker (Sep 27, 2007)

Hairfoot said:
			
		

> One wraith to hold the bulb, and a cleric to turn it.



 Yay... a cookie for you! *sigged exchange*


_*Some renaming possibilities, with tongue firmly in cheek*_:

*Feywild (icky!)*
Aboria
Agraria
Feralia
Anti-Arcadia
Paraforestia
Fantasyland or Faeriland
The Rustic Realm
The Feral Lands or Savage Lands
The Boonies
The Great Shrublands


*Shadowfell (kinda like this one)*
Deadlands or Shadowlands (too obvious?)
Mortifarum
The Grim
The Veiled Realm
Avaracadavrous
Umbragium
Penumbria
Anti-alivelands


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## Abstraction (Sep 27, 2007)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> I can definitely get behind this initiative.
> 
> Actually, they could borrow the Magic the Gathering creative team for about six hours; they seem to have a limitless supply of awesome names that manage to sound both fantastic and believable.



I have just three words for you: Apes of Rath


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## Gundark (Sep 27, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> How about take your actual name, turn it backwards, and then tweak any letters that don't quite work?  Is that a good way to generate names?




Oboh the terrible!!!


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## Kunimatyu (Sep 27, 2007)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Can you?




I'd go with Shadowland/Shadowlands instead of Shadowfell, it doesn't have that weird noun-adjective pairing that just sounds wrong. Also, the idea of a shadowland has been around for a long time and is easy for people to get a feel for.

For "Feywild", I'd really like to just say "Otherworld" (since it pretty much is the Celtic otherworld), or perhaps "Wilds" or "Wild Reaches".

I think the reason I dislike those two names so much (as opposed to Elemental Tempest or Astral Sea, which sound fine), is because they've got a noun as the first part and an adjective as the second, which makes the whole word sound like an adjective.


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## Kaodi (Sep 27, 2007)

... The Greenveil?


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## Remathilis (Sep 27, 2007)

I don't mind the names. They are generic enough to rename whatever you like. 

That said, its no dumber than some of the other D&D names floating around, and a heck of a lot more pronounceable.


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Sep 27, 2007)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> I actually think that "Shadowfell" is fine.  It's evocative enough.
> 
> There's something about the particular way that the portmanteau is employed in "Feywild", however, that makes it sound modern and bland.




I have a similar reaction. All of these new names are fine except for Feywild. I'll just call it Faerie.

I also like they way "plane" isn't the standard descriptor for almost everything. Astal Sea, Elemental Tempest, Shadowfell rather than Astral Plane, Elemental Planes, Plane of Shadow...we get it Gary. They're planes, aren't they?


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## Zurai (Sep 27, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> I'd go with Shadowland/Shadowlands instead of Shadowfell, it doesn't have that weird noun-adjective pairing that just sounds wrong. Also, the idea of a shadowland has been around for a long time and is easy for people to get a feel for.




The Shadowlands has a conflict with an officially licensed D&D property though (the world Oriental Adventures is set in has a signifigant plot based around "the Shadowlands").

It's also VERY generic.


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## Kunimatyu (Sep 27, 2007)

Zurai said:
			
		

> The Shadowlands has a conflict with an officially licensed D&D property though (the world Oriental Adventures is set in has a signifigant plot based around "the Shadowlands").
> 
> It's also VERY generic.




I'm aware, though L5R isn't an official D&D property anymore, they went back to the old d10 system.

And yeah, it's generic -- that's the entire point. In my homebrew, I'd call my shadowland "Carcosa" and have it be one immense twisted city, but that's not really the way to go for 4e. The "Shadowland(s)" fits the bill nicely.


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## Arkham (Sep 27, 2007)

Feywild bugs me.
I think Shadowfell is ok, but would be better inverted.
Entering the Fellshadow sounds more intimidating than the Shadowfell. The first sounds like 'evil darkness', the second sounds like 'burnt out bulbs'.


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## avr (Sep 27, 2007)

The problem with some of these names is that they're really similar to some which have been well and truly used. Shadowfell? Shadowdale & the Shadowlands' are already mentioned, Shadowmarch is a book by Tad Williams, Shadow's Fall is a book by Simon Green I think, and there must be a hundred other fantasy locations with a similar name. Compare to "the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie ... " - still evocative, but distinctive. Feywild sounds like a two-syllable version of the Wyld (White Wolf). Emerald Frost isn't actually a bad name IMO provided there are no associated cities.


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## GSHamster (Sep 27, 2007)

I like Faerie and Shadow.

May as well go back to the classics.


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## Belorin (Sep 27, 2007)

So far I like the names Wizards has come up with, they are evocative without being sappy.
Feywild, Shadowfell, even the Wizards traditions like Emerald Frost & Iron Sigil, much better than Positve or Negative Material, the Plane of Shadow or even the Fugue Plain from FR.
Remember, if you don't like, you can always change it.

Bel


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## Reaper Steve (Sep 27, 2007)

GSHamster said:
			
		

> I like Faerie and Shadow.
> 
> May as well go back to the classics.




I previously posted that I've accepted Feywild. But after stewing on it a few more hours...I haven't.

I agree with you...call them Faerie and Shadow.

A rift in the material world that joins to Shadow could be called a Shadowfell. (Because I do like the term, and would like to keep the first module's name intact.)


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## Desdichado (Sep 27, 2007)

Belorin said:
			
		

> Remember, if you don't like, you can always change it.



So simple and yet so elegant!  What a great idea!


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 27, 2007)

"The Shadowfell" is a great name.  Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to study up on their Middle English / Old Norse.

Some Definitions:
 * Dire; sinister: by some fell chance.
 * A thin membrane directly beneath the hide.
 * An upland stretch of open country; a moor.
 * A barren or stony hill.

My favorite is "the thin membrane directly beneath the hide."  I like to think of the Shadowfell as a thin membrane directly beneath the world, separating this world from wherever it is the dead finally go ...

"The Feywild" isn't quite as good, but I can't offer anything better right now, so I won't criticize (unlike some).  I like the idea of the Feywild, but calling it "the world of faerie" or "seelie" is too Irish (I want some other choices, like Shinto spirits).  I also don't want to limit it to "green" themes, such as The Green or Arboria ... I like the idea of the Fomorian King in the Feywild Underdark, or the Goblyn Kings on the mountains ...

I'm going to use the word Elemental "Maelstrom."  Definitely the best of the lot ..

Some other thoughts ...

 * The Abyss is not a cosmological "drain", it's already been established that it was created when Tharzidun threw "the seed of evil" into the Elemental Tempest; and the Abyss grew from that.  It's a growth of evil; it's not going anywhere.  The real question is, how far will it grow?

 * Sigil is the nexus of the Astral Sea, where all the threads of Astral Travelers pass through the center of the ring into the Prime Material.  It's not the center though, just the Nexus.


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## Doug McCrae (Sep 27, 2007)

Shadowfell is pretty good, Feywild is okay.

My suggestions:
Eternal Wild
Old Wood
Land of Lies
Glamourweald


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## Ry (Sep 27, 2007)

I certainly prefer Dolurrh (sp?) over Shadowfell - the word sounds like something from a dirge.

I actually really like the Fugue Plain as a name as well.


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## Intrope (Sep 27, 2007)

Xyl said:
			
		

> Sig'd.
> 
> Except for beer.
> 
> ...



Actually, the giraffe would make a decent fantasy creature: just tart it up a bit (it already has reach, how about adding an acid tongue attack?)

It's not nearly as bozo as some of the existing monsters...

On the whole, I like the planar name scheme. Feywild is a kind of weak link, but I truly can't think of a better name.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 27, 2007)

For some reason I have a reaction to "-fell" the same as I now do to "Fane of [blank]". I want to pound my head on the desk each time a new one comes along. I dunno why, but its not for the same reasons.

I just think "fane" has been overused.

With -fell, I'd be fine if shadowfell referred to a small location, if not a single site like a castle.I  don't think it should be used for a massive geographic region(s) much less an entire plane. It's just not, umm, proper.   (whatever that means)


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## Charwoman Gene (Sep 27, 2007)

monkey


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## EATherrian (Sep 27, 2007)

I think Feywild would be better as Feyweald.  Has a better sound and looks neat.  Of course that's just my opinion.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Sep 27, 2007)

"Hail! I am Badgertooth Bladeblade the Hexblade, Redblade of the Emerald Frost bladeclan. I have called you all here with my Infinitysimal Summonhorn to the Ogredagger Inn of Greydale to discuss a dire threat to all of us who live here on Erdoerthicusican, this planet on which we all live. A vile eldritch villain, an Eladrin Oozemage by prestige trade and Archanomagemage by heritage, threatens to devour all of the Feyweld with his Shadowfart powered Achiles Oufertoffensphere!"


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## Reaper Steve (Sep 27, 2007)

w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> Shadowfart powered




I don't recall training anyone else...


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## HeinorNY (Sep 27, 2007)

Who's the owner of Feywild and Shadowfell? Who created them? Are these names registered in the multiverse registry office? Is there a plaque in the entrance of Feywild:"WELCOME TO FEYWILD", or when you open a portal to shadowfell, does it appear on the top of it: "SHADOWFELL THIS WAY".

They are just how most of humans, and other native Common speakers, in the world call them. The elves probably have their own name in their own language that means something completelly different from "Feywild". The same with other races. The creatures that live in Feywild probably never called it that way.

I like the names a lot, I'm gonna use them, but it's cool to give more names to things like this. Maybe an old wizard in a far land calls Shadowfell by the name of "Spiritwalk". Maybe a tribe of elves call Feywild by the name of "Emerald Dream". Maybe a necromancer hires the party to enter the "Fountain of Souls" to gather souls for his next experiment. 

Take a look at Elemental Chaos, they said it's also called Elemental tempest or maelstrom. The same may happen with all planes.
Are all the wizards in your game called "wizards"? All wizards call magic missiles by the name "magic missiles"?


----------



## Felon (Sep 27, 2007)

WotC loves using portmanteaus, don't they?


----------



## No Name (Sep 27, 2007)

They could follow the true path and accept no name as name.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 27, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> WotC loves using portmanteaus, don't they?




I've seen this term thrown around a lot lately, but I'm afraid I don't know the definition in this context. 'splain, please?


----------



## LoneWolf23 (Sep 27, 2007)

Frankly, I like the new names.  They sound evocative enough, and definetly indicate what people are in for when going there..

Feywild: Land of the Faeries, an untamed Wilderness filled with magical creatures.

Shadowfell: the Realm of darkness and unlife.

The Elemental Chaos: A savage, unending elemental storm.

The Astral Sea: an endless realm of souls and magical beings, dotted with Islands of conceptual reality.


----------



## KarinsDad (Sep 27, 2007)

I think WotC could have a survey and poll on their web pages.

First, they list all of the "situations" (i.e. arcane guild, plane of existance, whatever).

Then, each logged on user can give suggestions for each (once).

WotC can then pick what they consider the top 10 for each and then have a poll.


This way, at least they engage the fanbase as opposed to just picking names and alienating some of their fanbase.


----------



## LoneWolf23 (Sep 27, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I've seen this term thrown around a lot lately, but I'm afraid I don't know the definition in this context. 'splain, please?





A portementeau is a word made up of two different words combined together.  The term itself is based off the french word for coatrack, which is "Coat" and "Rack" put together.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 27, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> WotC can then pick what they consider the top 10 for each and then have a poll.



Because if Hollywood has taught us anything, it's that creative endeavors really SHINE when created by committee.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 27, 2007)

LoneWolf23 said:
			
		

> A portementeau is a word made up of two different words combined together.  The term itself is based off the french word for coatrack, which is "Coat" and "Rack" put together.




I thought that might be what it referred to, but I wasn't certain. Thanks.


----------



## HeinorNY (Sep 27, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> I think WotC could have a survey and poll on their web pages.
> 
> First, they list all of the "situations" (i.e. arcane guild, plane of existance, whatever).
> 
> ...



We can always do it here in EnWorld. Open up a thread so everyone can give a new name for each of the planes, than open up a poll to choose the best name for each plane.


----------



## Lackhand (Sep 27, 2007)

-deleted-


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 27, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I've seen this term thrown around a lot lately, but I'm afraid I don't know the definition in this context. 'splain, please?



A portmanteau is a case that opens in to two halves. 

In the context of neologisms is taking two words and slapping them together for a new word.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Sep 27, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Because if Hollywood has taught us anything, it's that creative endeavors really SHINE when created by committee.




Committee != smart mobs.

Besides, we got Eberron that way, didn't we?


----------



## humble minion (Sep 27, 2007)

Can't say I'm a fan of the names.  I don't mind the concepts, but the names seem very prosaic and descriptive rather than evocative.  It's fairly obvious they are names made up by someone who is INVENTING these places, rather than names developed over time by people in a world where they're actually real.  Real names aren't like that.  To skirt the edges of the Big Religion Ban, the Christian Heaven and Hell get called Heaven and Hell - actual new words made up to suit the concepts rather than cobbled together.  If WotC was writing about them, I fear they'd be called Joycloud and The Punishfires.

Surely there was some word or name in mythology that WotC could have stolen to title these places?  Something with a bit of actual flavour and resonance?


----------



## Megatron (Sep 27, 2007)

feywild and shadowfell flat out suck.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 27, 2007)

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> > * The Abyss is not a cosmological "drain", it's already been established that it was created when Tharzidun threw "the seed of evil" into the Elemental Tempest; and the Abyss grew from that.  It's a growth of evil; it's not going anywhere.  The real question is, how far will it grow?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MerricB (Sep 27, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I thought that might be what it referred to, but I wasn't certain. Thanks.




'You seem very clever at explaining words, Sir' said Alice. 'Would you kindly tell me the meaning of the poem called "Jabberwocky"?' 

'Let's hear it,' said Humpty Dumpty. 'I can explain all the poems that ever were invented just yet.' 

This sounded very hopeful, so Alice repeated the first verse:-- 

_`'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
   And the mome raths outgrabe.'_

`That's enough to begin with,' Humpty Dumpty interrupted: `there are plenty of hard words there. "Brillig" means four o'clock in the afternoon -- the time when you begin broiling things for dinner.' 

`That'll do very well,' said Alice: `and "slithy"?' 

`Well, "slithy" means "lithe and slimy". "Lithe" is the same as "active". You see it's like a portmanteau -- there are two meanings packed up into one word.' 

`I see it now,' Alice remarked thoughtfully: `and what are "toves"?' 

`Well, "toves" are something like badgers -- they're something like lizards -- and they're something like corkscrews.' 

`They must be very curious-looking creatures.' 

`They are that,' said Humpty Dumpty; `also they make their nests under sun-dials -- also they live on cheese.' 

`And what's to "gyre" and to "gimble"?' 

`To "gyre" is to go round and round like a gyroscope. To "gimble" is to make holes like a gimlet.' 

`And "the wabe" is the grass-plot round a sun-dial, I suppose?' said Alice, surprised at her own ingenuity. 

`Of course it is. It's called "wabe" you know, because it goes a long way before it, and a long way behind it --' 

`And a long way beyond it on each side,' Alice added. 

`Exactly so. Well then, "mimsy" is "flimsy and miserable" (there's another portmanteau for you). And a "borogove" is a thin shabby-looking bird with its feathers sticking out all round -- something like a live mop.'


----------



## A'koss (Sep 27, 2007)

I like Shadowfell, but Feywild... no. It doesn't even really come across as a place-name. My alts would be (and keeping it simple, like the rest of their names)...

The Dreamlands - would be my no. 1 choice.
Arboria - would be my no. 2 choice.
The Wyrd - sound fae-ish.
The Fey Realm - although if the Far Realm exists in 4e, this might not be such a good idea.
The Twillight Lands - still better than Feywild.


I'd like to know who is coming up with some of these names, the "Emeral Ice" order or whathaveyou is awful as well. They gotta be able to do better than that...


----------



## MerricB (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm going to stick with Faerie.

Cheers!


----------



## Lackhand (Sep 27, 2007)

Wizards can't use these names, but there is a certain appeal to Twilight and Night, for me, I think.

Still, Shadowfell has grown on me. Not _enough_, of course. But I remain solidly convinced Feywild is a condition, not a place.


----------



## The Little Raven (Sep 27, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Committee != smart mobs.
> 
> Besides, we got Eberron that way, didn't we?




We got Eberron because *game designers* picked the winning entry, not an internet poll.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Sep 27, 2007)

Mourn said:
			
		

> We got Eberron because *game designers* picked the winning entry, not an internet poll.




Right, that's what I meant -- internet to make the name choices, designers to pick them. Guess I wasn't clear.


----------



## Hussar (Sep 27, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> I think Kirin is a great fantasy name... because it's too weird for real life.




Meh, I'm always up for a beer.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 27, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Right, that's what I meant -- internet to make the name choices, designers to pick them. Guess I wasn't clear.




And I guarantee you--absolutely guarantee, to the point that I'd put money on the table--that the ultimate end result would be the same. We'd have names that a vocal group online dislike, a smaller vocal group online defended, and the silent majority would be okay with but not care all that much. On occasion, you'd get a name that really strikes the right note, and is well-loved by most; or a name that's truly sour, and is hated by most. But these, as they are now, would be corner cases.

Names are simply too subjective, and too subject to individual taste, for it to go any other way. The only difference is that the process would be a lot longer and a lot more complex.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Sep 27, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> And I guarantee you--absolutely guarantee, to the point that I'd put money on the table--that the ultimate end result would be the same. We'd have names that a vocal group online dislike, a smaller vocal group online defended, and the silent majority would be okay with but not care all that much. On occasion, you'd get a name that really strikes the right note, and is well-loved by most; or a name that's truly sour, and is hated by most. But these, as they are now, would be corner cases.
> 
> Names are simply too subjective, and too subject to individual taste, for it to go any other way. The only difference is that the process would be a lot longer and a lot more complex.




I'll disagree with you here -- while you're almost certainly correct that the end result would be similar, I think that having a wider body of individuals (as opposed to a tiny creative team) make a lot of these names -- even if said tiny creative group sorted the wheat from the chaff -- would result in names that a larger majority would prefer. It'd be sort of like a mini Setting Search.


----------



## Xyl (Sep 27, 2007)

LoneWolf23 said:
			
		

> A portementeau is a word made up of two different words combined together.  The term itself is based off the french word for coatrack, which is "Coat" and "Rack" put together.




Half-right. Portmanteau refers to a word made by taking part of one word and part of another, such as "brunch" or "cyborg". As MerricB posted, the term (in that usage) comes from Through the Looking Glass. "Feywild" and "shadowfell" aren't actually portmanteaus, they're regular compound words.


----------



## Baduin (Sep 27, 2007)

Some alternative names for the Feywild

Faerie, Faery etc.
Otherworld
Elfhame
Tir Na mBeo - Land of the Living  
Tir na n'Og - Land of Youth 
Tir Tairngire - Land of Promise  
Tirfo Thuinn - the Land Under the Waves
Tirn Aill - the Other World
Tir na mBan - Land of Women
Hy Breasil 
Mag Mell - Pleasant Plain 
Mag Mor - Great Plain
the Realm Perilous
Avalon


----------



## Branduil (Sep 27, 2007)

Mmm, Emerald Frost...


----------



## rounser (Sep 27, 2007)

> "Hail! I am Badgertooth Bladeblade the Hexblade, Redblade of the Emerald Frost bladeclan. I have called you all here with my Infinitysimal Summonhorn to the Ogredagger Inn of Greydale to discuss a dire threat to all of us who live here on Eberron, this planet on which we all live. A vile eldritch villain, an Eladrin Oozemage by prestige trade and Archanomagemage by heritage, threatens to devour all of the Feyweld with his Shadowfart powered Achiles Oufertoffensphere!"



LOL.

If half-anteater half-dragon half-warturnips were the bane of 3E, maybe portmanteaus are the bane of 4E?  Oh fane that it not be so!

I also gather that Eberron was originally going to be called Warforged, so a bullet was dodged there, maybe.  That "war" word is sure creeping into a lot of their favourite portmanteaus.  A world named "Warblade" would have won even more, maybe.  Words like "blade" and "war" are pushing someone's "kewl" button over there...erk.


----------



## wedgeski (Sep 27, 2007)

I think 'Feywild' is okay, and 'Shadowfell' much more than okay. It trips off the tongue and evokes instant images of he place... what more could you want?

Interestingly, I find the vast majority of efforts by other posters to come up with different or 'better' names to be abject failures.  Those MtG names in particular just flat out suck IMO. They're akin to the very worst captions I would slap over my campaign maps when I was 11.

'Avaracadavrous' though. That made me laugh.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Sep 27, 2007)

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> * An upland stretch of open country; a moor.




I'm glad you posted some definitions for 'fell'.

Maybe it is because I'm British, but I automatically read '-fell' as meaning a remote, wild location (I often used to go walking in the fells north of Yorkshire).

I wonder whether some people are not familiar with that usage of the word and so are reading it as the past tense of 'to fall'? That would perhaps explain why I don't think of Shadowfell as cheesy, while others might, perhaps?

Regards


----------



## jasin (Sep 27, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I wonder whether some people are not familiar with that usage of the word and so are reading it as the past tense of 'to fall'? That would perhaps explain why I don't think of Shadowfell as cheesy, while others might, perhaps?



I first read "fell" as an adjective, and it souded a lot cheesier than once I found out about the "moor" meaning.


----------



## jasin (Sep 27, 2007)

Xyl said:
			
		

> "Feywild" and "shadowfell" aren't actually portmanteaus, they're regular compound words.



I think they're kenning-wannabes, like many fantasy names.


----------



## jasin (Sep 27, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> I think Kirin is a great fantasy name... because it's too weird for real life.



That's our interior minister's last name.


----------



## Simia Saturnalia (Sep 27, 2007)

I'll take an evocative compound word - or phrase, or regular word - over some more unpronounceable apostrophe-laden 'ae'-happy fantasy names, thanks. It fits in better with a world largely unmapped and unknown, too - all the sages have is the name they gave it in a vain attempt to describe an alien world.

And lay off Verbobonc!


----------



## Wulfram (Sep 27, 2007)

The Shadowfells would be better, IMO.  One fell is a bit small.  "Shadow" is a much over used word in fantasy, but this is one of the more acceptable uses.

Feywild is a bit meh, but at least it's not cheesy like the wizard stuff.


----------



## Lorthanoth (Sep 27, 2007)

'Wild' can be used as a noun denoting "An uninhabited or uncultivated region. Often used in the plural: the wilds of the northern steppes." - that's how I read it, not as a condition which of course would make no sense. The same with Shadowfell - it's a bleak moorland.

They both conjure up images of forbidding places where mankind shouldn't be. Works for me. Maybe not enough people are familiar with 'fell' and 'wild' used in those senses. Thanks WOTC for expanding vocabulary!


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Sep 27, 2007)

*strikes a match*

Feywild?  or Emerald Dream?


----------



## Lurks-no-More (Sep 27, 2007)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> I actually think that "Shadowfell" is fine.  It's evocative enough.
> 
> There's something about the particular way that the portmanteau is employed in "Feywild", however, that makes it sound modern and bland.



I think splitting the word apart improves it. "Fey Wild(s)"?


----------



## JeffB (Sep 27, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> WotC..
> 
> You are TERRIBLE at coming up with names. "Emerald Frost"? "Feywild"? "Shadowfell"? WTF?
> 
> Those are horrid, lame, pathetic names. Please find someone who can make non-terrible names. Or, if that's not possible, put up submission contests to come up with better ones.




Amen. They're coming up with the kind of cheese I did when I was 8.

I prefer Gygaxian naming conventions, but they could take a page from Glorantha, Tekumel, The Rolemaster worlds (Shadow World/Iron Wind). Hell, even Arduin.


----------



## Wormwood (Sep 27, 2007)

JeffB said:
			
		

> Amen. They're coming up with the kind of cheese I did when I was 8.
> 
> I prefer Gygaxian naming conventions, but they could take a page from Glorantha, Tekumel, The Rolemaster worlds (Shadow World/Iron Wind). Hell, even Arduin.




An epileptic with a Boggle set could come up with names virtually indistinguishable from those found in Greyhawk and Tekumel.


----------



## JeffB (Sep 27, 2007)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> An epileptic with a Boggle set could come up with names virtually indistinguishable from those found in Greyhawk and Tekumel.




And I still prefer them over pre-teen style creativity


----------



## Simia Saturnalia (Sep 27, 2007)

JeffB said:
			
		

> And I still prefer them over pre-teen style creativity







_That sounds like a personal problem._​


----------



## Frostmarrow (Sep 27, 2007)

I like cool sounding compound words just fine. What i do like even more is compound words that consist of one cool word and one cheesy, lame, weak word.


----------



## Thaumaturge (Sep 27, 2007)

Masquerade said:
			
		

> Total agreement. Pronounceable, fittingly descriptive, and memorable.




+1

Thaumaturge.


----------



## Doug McCrae (Sep 27, 2007)

JeffB said:
			
		

> I prefer Gygaxian naming conventions



Seriously? You like Nosnra, Acererak, Stoink, Hochoch, Grygax and Ugdru Forest?

Admittedly not all of them are bad. Mordenkainen and the Theocracy of the Pale are quality but in general Gary doesn't have much of an ear for names.

Incidentally Crystalmist sounds just like a modern WotC fantasy name, like Icehorn or Thronehold.


----------



## Simia Saturnalia (Sep 27, 2007)

Crystalmist sounds like a no-carb drink powder.
Acererak's not terrible.
Ugrdu puts me in mind of Ogdru Jahad, which is never bad. God I hope I spelled that right.
The rest are absolute pants, though.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm not fond of shadow-anything, due to overuse, although I do appreciate the double (triple?) meaning of fell.  How about sombrefell, greyfell, gloomfell, or just The Fell?


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Sep 27, 2007)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> I'm not fond of shadow-anything, due to overuse, although I do appreciate the double (triple?) meaning of fell.  How about sombrefell, greyfell, gloomfell, or just The Fell?




Why does it have to be Fell?  Why not The Stumble or The Trip?


----------



## rounser (Sep 27, 2007)

> Why does it have to be Fell? Why not The Stumble or The Trip?



Or you could go for the War- theme, along the lines of -forged, -blade, -lord etc. with something like Warhuhwhatisitgoodforabsolutelynuthinsingitagainuh.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 27, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Why does it have to be Fell?  Why not The Stumble or The Trip?



Because they're using fell as a noun or nominalized adjective rather than a verb.


----------



## Doug McCrae (Sep 27, 2007)

JeffB said:
			
		

> And I still prefer them over pre-teen style creativity



Gygaxian name-reversing is very much the type of activity children do. I remember doing it.

Typical naming styles for teenagers would be changing 'i' to 'y', or 'c' to 'k'. Like Bill & Ted's band, Wyld Stallyns. 1337speak is a similar idea.

Apostrophes, unpronounceable names (like Drizzt) and compound names where one of the words is 'death', 'blade', 'dark' or 'fire' look rather teenager-y to me. Or maybe they're just crap.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 27, 2007)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> Bob is a good fantasy name. Best of all, it can be Gygaxed as Bob as well.




Bobdale!



			
				Korgoth said:
			
		

> There's something about the particular way that the portmanteau is employed in "Feywild", however, that makes it sound modern and bland.




Feywild sounds like a subdivision to me.  "Welcome to Feywild!  36 holes of golf, and a swim park, too!"



			
				Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> Feywild? or Emerald Dream?




Didn't they do the soundtrack for Ladyhawke?


----------



## RPG_Tweaker (Sep 27, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Didn't they do the soundtrack for Ladyhawke?




Alan Parson... *shudder*

Curse that name to the Nine Hells for ruining an otherwise enjoyable fantasy movie.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 27, 2007)

RPG_Tweaker said:
			
		

> Alan Parson... *shudder*
> 
> Curse that name to the Nine Hells for ruining an otherwise enjoyable fantasy movie.




Whaddaya know, it was Alan Parsons.  For some reason, I was thinking Tangerine Dream.


----------



## Reaper Steve (Sep 27, 2007)

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> I previously posted that I've accepted Feywild. But after stewing on it a few more hours...I haven't.
> 
> I agree with you...call them Faerie and Shadow.




OK, after just reading in another thread that Gygax's Lejendary Earth has a plane called 'Phaeree' (yeesh!) I officially change my opinion (again.) 

I'll take Feywild. I'd like something better, but can't offer a solution. And seeing how used and abused Faerie has become...I'll take Feywild for the originality.


----------



## JeffB (Sep 27, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Gygaxian name-reversing is very much the type of activity children do. I remember doing it.
> 
> Typical naming styles for teenagers would be changing 'i' to 'y', or 'c' to 'k'. Like Bill & Ted's band, Wyld Stallyns. 1337speak is a similar idea.
> 
> Apostrophes, unpronounceable names (like Drizzt) and compound names where one of the words is 'death', 'blade', 'dark' or 'fire' look rather teenager-y to me. Or maybe they're just crap.




I guess my post hit a nerve with you :shrug: sorry if it bothers you. :\  I just find current WOTC naming conventions rather silly. I cannot say ALL Gygaxian style is great either, but in general, me likey. 

I've no idea what you are referencing as to  "1337 speak". 

And FWIW,  I never said I like the FR style names either..so not sure why you threw that comment in there? Other than to try and prove that your opinion is better than mine? :shrug:


----------



## Varianor Abroad (Sep 27, 2007)

Wrongdale is awesome! Feywild is copyrightable. It's also just ill-chosen English. The word 'fey' has connotations of 'wild', 'spirits', 'untameable' and more. I do happen to like Shadowfell.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 27, 2007)

Varianor Abroad said:
			
		

> I do happen to like Shadowfell.




"Fell" is the new "Fane."


----------



## Chris_Nightwing (Sep 27, 2007)

Hairfoot said:
			
		

> One wraith to hold the bulb, and a cleric to turn it.




Either it's a complete coincidence, or Noonan just stole your joke.


----------



## Fifth Element (Sep 27, 2007)

I expect a lot of people are going to steal that joke. I plan on using it myself in my Saturday D&D session, if at all possible.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 27, 2007)

Hairfoot said:
			
		

> One wraith to hold the bulb, and a cleric to turn it.




I hate you.










Mostly because I didn't think of it first.


----------



## Zaruthustran (Sep 27, 2007)

I don't mind the names, and think that local in-game cultures will come up with their own names for those places anyway. 

Alternate names, just for fun:

*Shadowfell*
Deadlands
Twilight
The Pale
Veiled lands
Hushed lands


*Feywild[/b}
The Root
Wildlands
Primordia
Essence of the World
Dawnlands*


----------



## Varianor Abroad (Sep 27, 2007)

Welcome to Felldale, formerly Fanedale.


----------



## DonTadow (Sep 27, 2007)

It's not like they name stuff Bob and Steve. MOTG follows a story and thus the places need to be a bit more descriptive. If D and D places weren't generic enough, they wouldn't be useable in a campaign.


----------



## olshanski (Sep 27, 2007)

Alternate names, just for fun:


*Feywild*
Wiskonson
Kerelina

*Shadowfell*
Neujersie
DeTroy't


----------



## Korgoth (Sep 27, 2007)

olshanski said:
			
		

> *Shadowfell*
> Neujersie




You've been there, then?


----------



## Blackwind (Sep 27, 2007)

As long as we're talking about stupid names (and this one is definitely old news) but I couldn't help but laugh at this ridiculous moniker: 

*Icingdeath.*

It sounds like something that happens when you OD on confectioner's glaze.  How did that ever get by an editor?

Also, Gygax's naming disability is the one reason why I've never been able to take Greyhawk seriously.

Feywild is acceptable (B-/C+) and Shadowfell I like (A).  Except that now I'm skeptical about Keep on the Shadowfell--it sounds less like KotB and more like... ?

And I'm definitely going to be creating my own wizard traditions if I do run 4E.


----------



## crazy_cat (Sep 27, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Typical naming styles for teenagers would be changing 'i' to 'y', or 'c' to 'k'. Like Bill & Ted's band, Wyld Stallyns. 1337speak is a similar idea.
> 
> Apostrophes, unpronounceable names (like Drizzt) and compound names where one of the words is 'death', 'blade', 'dark' or 'fire' look rather teenager-y to me. Or maybe they're just crap.



Don't talk rubbish.

Regards, k'rzaiK'aat, Darkfire Deathflame and Blademage T'nyger of the eighth circle.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 27, 2007)

Blackwind said:
			
		

> As long as we're talking about stupid names (and this one is definitely old news) but I couldn't help but laugh at this ridiculous moniker:
> 
> *Icingdeath.*
> 
> It sounds like something that happens when you OD on confectioner's glaze.  How did that ever get by an editor?




A friend of mine, upon first learning that Driz'zt's weapons were "Twinkle" and "Icingdeath" replied with:

"I'm going to bake a cake. An _EVIL_ cake!"

I think that about sums it up.


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 27, 2007)

JeffB said:
			
		

> I guess my post hit a nerve with you :shrug: sorry if it bothers you. :\



MAI ANGER 2 U KNWO NO LIMIT!!!!11


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 27, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> It's not like they name stuff Bob and Steve. MOTG follows a story and thus the places need to be a bit more descriptive. If D and D places weren't generic enough, they wouldn't be useable in a campaign.



I've been part of an interesting discussion this afternoon, mostly taking place in a blog's comments area, and I think I'm in agreement with the statement that the MORE detail smaller, "encounter level" material has, the easier it is to use, not the reverse.  Bigger, "campaign level" stuff; yeah, I almost prefer less detail so I can customize to fit into my campaign.  But at the encounter level, I want something I can just use with a minimum of fuss.

That said, I hardly think anyone's going to look at a D&D place and say, "nope; I can't use that, the name is wrong."  That's gotta be literally the easiest thing possible to change.


----------



## Blackwind (Sep 27, 2007)

PS: I hear Wizards is doing a sourcebook in 2009 called

FEY GONE WILD!!!1!1

They might even do a new volume every year, if it's successful.

Should have some great art ;-)


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Sep 27, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> WotC,
> 
> You're great guys. I love all the changes I've heard about 4e so far, from encounter design, cosmology, points of light, PC mechanics -- the whole works.
> 
> ...




I've not read the whole thread, but I have a better name for the Feywild, hopefully no-one has mentioned it:

*The Emerald Dream*

Oh, what do you mean someone already has the exact same concept and name? Shocking!

Emerald Frost is GODAWFUL. Golden Wyvern is TERRIBLE (Golden Phoenix or Gryphon might have been okay).

Shadowfell ISN'T SCARY ENOUGH. It's the bloody underworld! Why not just call it the Underworld if you can't come up with a scarier name, guys? Even like "Deathlands" would be better. It just sounds like a place that's kinda a bit dark.

Feywild... just... it's like the Emerald Dream only lamer and more trademarkable.

I suspect that's what's behind these slightly lame names. You can trademark the HELL out of them!

At least The Astral Sea (which confusingly makes me think of the Aral Sea but anyway) and The Elemental Tempest are cool.



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> How about Faerie, which is well-known and accessible to newbs? Regardless, it's a fairly minor thing. I don't particularly like these new names, but I cane easily call 'em what I like.




'Cause it sounds a little fruity, Col. that's why not. Well, more than a little fruity, to be honest. Especially to newbs. The Otherworld is probably better known, too, I'd suggest.


----------



## blargney the second (Sep 27, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> A friend of mine, upon first learning that Driz'zt's weapons were "Twinkle" and "Icingdeath" replied with:
> 
> "I'm going to bake a cake. An _EVIL_ cake!"



*chuckle*

Wasn't Icingdeath the dragon they killed, and Frostbrand the name of his scimitar?  It's been a long time since I read those though, so I could be totally wrong...
-blarg


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Sep 28, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> *chuckle*
> 
> Wasn't Icingdeath the dragon they killed, and Frostbrand the name of his scimitar?  It's been a long time since I read those though, so I could be totally wrong...
> -blarg




The scimitar is called Icingdeath (rofl) and it is a Frost Brand weapon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drizzt_Do'Urden's_scimitars

The dragon was also called Icingdeath, and yes, I am as horrified as you are the Drizzt's scimitars get their own Wikipedia entry.


----------



## Korgoth (Sep 28, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> and yes, I am as horrified as you are the Drizzt's scimitars get their own Wikipedia entry.




I know a little part of me just died inside.


----------



## Exen Trik (Sep 28, 2007)

Emerald Frost wouldn't seem nearly as bad if it weren't an obvious reference to the cold and acid damage they specialize in, which makes no sense together anyways. Maybe if the name refers to a place that was once a corrupted, green colored, poisoned sea, that was magically frozen to keep it's blight contained. That would at least makes some sense. 

I'm fine with everything else, really.  A Feywild by any other name would be just as fey... and wild... or whatever.


----------



## HeinorNY (Sep 28, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> I've not read the whole thread, but I have a better name for the Feywild, hopefully no-one has mentioned it:
> 
> *The Emerald Dream*



I mentioned it twice. The feywild really reminds me of the Emerald Dream from WoW.


----------



## Hairfoot (Sep 28, 2007)

Chris_Nightwing said:
			
		

> Either it's a complete coincidence, or Noonan just stole your joke.



Where?


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Sep 28, 2007)

ainatan said:
			
		

> I mentioned it twice. The feywild really reminds me of the Emerald Dream from WoW.




Oh well. It really does though. I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. I dunno if I like the whole "other planes are parallel to and similar to ours!" deal. It's bit hmmm, but also cool but also hmmm.


----------



## Hairfoot (Sep 28, 2007)

Hairfoot said:
			
		

> Where?



Oh, on his blog.  That's a bit cheap.  Remember, you read it here first.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 28, 2007)

I don't think he's stealing it; he's just giving it its props.


----------



## Blackwind (Sep 28, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> A friend of mine, upon first learning that Driz'zt's weapons were "Twinkle" and "Icingdeath" replied with:
> 
> "I'm going to bake a cake. An _EVIL_ cake!"
> 
> I think that about sums it up.




Agreed.  Next time I need a dark elf pastry-chef NPC, he's going to dual-wield cake knives called _Frosting_ and _Sprinkle_.


----------



## Hairfoot (Sep 28, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I don't think he's stealing it; he's just giving it its props.



I would have hoped for, oh, I don't know, just a byline in bold 14pt, reading "this natty tagline courtesy of Hairfoot at ENworld, a legendary gamer whose opinions are always right" and a mention in every 4E publication from WotC.

I hate ingratitude.


----------



## Caliban (Sep 28, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I've seen this term thrown around a lot lately, but I'm afraid I don't know the definition in this context. 'splain, please?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portmanteau


----------



## Fifth Element (Sep 28, 2007)

Caliban said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portmanteau



Thanks for the link. It's craptacular.


----------



## Xyl (Sep 28, 2007)

crazy_cat said:
			
		

> Don't talk rubbish.
> 
> Regards, k'rzaiK'aat, Darkfire Deathflame and Blademage T'nyger of the eighth circle.



A perfectly good name.

--Xylthixlm (ZIL-thick-selm)


----------



## Hammerhead (Sep 28, 2007)

Exen Trik said:
			
		

> Emerald Frost wouldn't seem nearly as bad if it weren't an obvious reference to the cold and acid damage they specialize in, which makes no sense together anyways. Maybe if the name refers to a place that was once a corrupted, green colored, poisoned sea, that was magically frozen to keep it's blight contained. That would at least makes some sense.
> 
> I'm fine with everything else, really.  A Feywild by any other name would be just as fey... and wild... or whatever.




I figured that the Frost Mages just looked good in green.


----------



## RFisher (Sep 28, 2007)

Howndawg said:
			
		

> Let's face it, for every Tolkien or Burroughs who has a natural knack for naming stuff, there are 100 others who possess the linguistic talent of a wombat.  Unfortunately, fantasy fans have to deal with the 100.  Get over it, its a dark fact of life, like death and taxes.




The real problem is that there are 100 people with different ideas of what "good names" are. I'm not convinced you could get 100 people to agree that Tolkien came up with good names. At a Lord of the Rings convention, even.


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 28, 2007)

Yet, I think we can all agree that Blibdoolploop is a bad name.


----------



## Kapture (Sep 28, 2007)

I'm going to start my next game in Port Mantow


----------



## Baby Samurai (Sep 28, 2007)

I don't think these new names are any worse than the names of Gary's silly NPCs.


----------



## JustinM (Sep 28, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Feywild sounds like a subdivision to me.  "Welcome to Feywild!  36 holes of golf, and a swim park, too!"




Exactly what I was thinking.  You just beat me to it.

And for those referencing WoW, they _all_ sound like WoW names to me.  Did Hasbro sell WotC to Blizzard or something?


----------



## Stoat (Sep 28, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Yet, I think we can all agree that Blibdoolploop is a bad name.




Funny thing, that.

I've always liked the name "Blibdoolpoolp."  Say it with me, "Blibdoolpoolp."  Doesn't it just hit the right note of silly, aquatic and alien?

Must just be me.


----------



## jasin (Sep 28, 2007)

RFisher said:
			
		

> The real problem is that there are 100 people with different ideas of what "good names" are. I'm not convinced you could get 100 people to agree that Tolkien came up with good names. At a Lord of the Rings convention, even.



With good reason. How do you like Tinwe Linto? How about Linwe Tinto? One of them might just be bearable, but as a pair... not even Tolkien can be excused.


----------



## JustinM (Sep 28, 2007)

His names for the dwarves in The Hobbit absolutely drove me up the wall.


----------



## Korgoth (Sep 28, 2007)

JustinM said:
			
		

> His names for the dwarves in The Hobbit absolutely drove me up the wall.




Prepare for incoming bunker buster:
He didn't make many/most of them up.  They are drawn from the Dvergatal, the "Catalogue of Dwarfs" in the Poetic Edda (Viking mythology).

The point at which people say that the Vikings didn't invent good fantasy names is the point at which the conversation about naming implodes.


----------



## Simia Saturnalia (Sep 28, 2007)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Prepare for incoming bunker buster:
> He didn't make many/most of them up.  They are drawn from the Dvergatal, the "Catalogue of Dwarfs" in the Poetic Edda (Viking mythology).
> 
> The point at which people say that the Vikings didn't invent good fantasy names is the point at which the conversation about naming implodes.



I would think the point is more that Tolkien chose poorly from the assortment provided to him.


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 28, 2007)

Stoat said:
			
		

> I've always liked the name "Blibdoolpoolp."  Say it with me, "Blibdoolpoolp."  Doesn't it just hit the right note of silly, aquatic and alien?



Mostly just the silly.  Although if you really lke Blibdoolpoolp, then I DARE you to tell me that Yan-C-Bin is a good name.  Seriously.  I double DOG dare you, skipping a few steps there.


----------



## Transit (Sep 28, 2007)

Simia Saturnalia said:
			
		

> I would think the point is more that Tolkien chose poorly from the assortment provided to him.



He really didn't give himself much of a choice, it's a very strange and unpronounceable list of names.  In addition to using it to name his dwarves, The Dvergatal is also where Tolkien found the name "Gandalf."

If anyone's interested, here it is:



> Then gathered together the gods for council,
> the holy hosts, and held converse:
> who the deep-dwelling dwarfs was to make
> of Brimir's blood and Blain's bones.
> ...



Anyone feel like naming their next character "Mjóthvitnir"?


----------



## Simia Saturnalia (Sep 28, 2007)

Transit said:
			
		

> He really didn't give himself much of a choice, it's a very strange and unpronounceable list of names.  In addition to using it to name his dwarves, The Dvergatal is also where Tolkien found the name "Gandalf."
> 
> If anyone's interested, here it is:
> 
> ...



I stand corrected.

Tolkien chose poorly in his choice of sources.


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 28, 2007)

Is it OK if we now have the predicted explosion?  Now that two folks have claimed that Old Norse is a poor source for fantasy names?


----------



## Cam Banks (Sep 28, 2007)

Transit said:
			
		

> Anyone feel like naming their next character "Mjóthvitnir"?




Personally, I like Mjóthvitnirfane and Hrothgarwyld. Let's use those names instead. Teh awesome!

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## jolt (Sep 28, 2007)

As "The Hobbit" was written as a children's novel I have no problem with the names presented there.  I do find the amount of seriousness and indignation in a thread under the category of Humor to be amusing however.  In that light, I guess it achieved it's goal.

jolt


----------



## Gold Roger (Sep 28, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Mostly just the silly.  Although if you really lke Blibdoolpoolp, then I DARE you to tell me that Yan-C-Bin is a good name.  Seriously.  I double DOG dare you, skipping a few steps there.




I actually think that both Blibdoolpoolp and Yan-C-Bin suit their owners quite well.


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Sep 28, 2007)

Stoat said:
			
		

> I've always liked the name "Blibdoolpoolp."  Say it with me, "Blibdoolpoolp."  Doesn't it just hit the right note of silly, aquatic and alien?




I wouldn't say "aquatic" so much as "bathroomlike."

Brad


----------



## Doug McCrae (Sep 28, 2007)

Looking over that list from the Dvergatal, I'd say about half of them are good names. For example Durin, Thorin and Finn are good. Haugspori, Heptifíli and Vit aren't.

Tolkien chose well, Gandalf is a f---ing awesome name and perfect* for the character. Faced with the same source material a lesser writer would have chosen less well. That's what it means to be good. To make the right choices about what not to put in.


*Well okay, not quite perfect cause he's not an elf.


----------



## Korgoth (Sep 28, 2007)

Simia Saturnalia said:
			
		

> Tolkien chose poorly in his choice of sources.




Norse Mythology is a poor choice?  Sorry: That's absurd.  IL.


----------



## Transit (Sep 29, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Is it OK if we now have the predicted explosion?  Now that two folks have claimed that Old Norse is a poor source for fantasy names?



Rereading this thread, I'm not certain if you're counting me as one of the two folks or not, but to clarify my post, I wasn't claiming Old Norse was a poor source for fantasy names.

I was commenting that I thought Tolkien had made good choices from among those names specifically listed in The Dvergatal, which includes some names that might have been even less readable/pronouncible/acceptable in a fantasy novel than "Oin, Gloin, Bifur, Bofur and Bombur."

Saying that some Old Norse names in a certain poem might be better sounding than others from the same poem doesn't mean I'm saying "all Old Norse names are bad."

I also pointed out that The Dvergatal was where Tolkien got the cool and famous name "Gandalf" from.  I was using that to illustrate that Old Norse was a good source of fantasy names, not a poor one.  If it came off like I was bashing Old Norse names, that wasn't my intention.


----------



## Blackwind (Sep 29, 2007)

Transit said:
			
		

> Anyone feel like naming their next character "Mjóthvitnir"?




No, but I do like "Frosti."  That's got to be one of the better dwarven names I've seen   

On a more serious note, I think the Dvergatal was a perfect place for Tolkien to find dwarven names, and I suppose I might consult it myself if I was going to play a dwarf.  But one does need to strike a balance, I think, between faithfulness to source material on one hand and pronunciation on the other.  Tolkien undoubtedly had no problem pronouncing Old Norse, but your average D&D player?  I dunno.  There were at least a few on that list that would trip me up pretty bad.  So Tolkien made good calls, I think: he chose the names that would be easiest for the "common reader" to pronounce.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Sep 29, 2007)

Howndawg said:
			
		

> there are 100 others who possess the linguistic talent of a wombat.




Wombats possess linguistic talent?  And here I'd been going to the kangaroos!


----------



## Simia Saturnalia (Sep 29, 2007)

Woe! Woe and anguish! I have been ignored by the mighty Korgoth! My world is bleak, and I despair of the sun ever rising again! How can I go on posting knowing that I'll never 
be able to reach him? *He was my world!!!!* 

  I've been ignored by better men than you, sir, and for much better reasons. Sorry, but pronounceable to your audience trumps nerd cred every time, especially if you have no argument in favor of it other than sniffing through your upturned nose at others.


----------



## Thunderfoot (Sep 29, 2007)

Next up on WotC's place name plate:

Elftree
Dwarfhole
Orcpit
Trollplace
Rosebush
Pinetree
Oakbranch
Emptyhollow
Darkarea
Evilspot

Yeah, all the creativity of a three year old on illegal drugs...  

Yet another reason to play homebrew.


----------



## Mighty Veil (Sep 29, 2007)

The names just get worst by the editions.

We get Limbo in 1e, for example. It's a chaotic realm ruled by Slaads, a strange planar monster.

2e decides it's not PC enough so renames it. The realm of Johnson Avenue! Slaads are still there but now they're given a detailed background. Turns out they're all bed wetters so act chaotic because they're cranky. They are having an epic war with the Water Elementals, who won't help wash their sheets.

2e's Planescape. Turns out the best Italian food in the planar realms is here. Send out the tourist brochure to all adventurers (you can now play a Slaad!)

3e comes around and realizes how dumb 2e's changes were. But can't change it all back since their friends wrote that junk, so we get instead. Stupid longer names! Welcome to "The Many Limbo Streets of Johnson Avenue".

3.5 we get some details. The frogs are still there but the reason for the war with the elementals is because of global warming and the assassination of their king Algorik, who warned the frogs not to water their lawns during the day.

4e...
Turns out the frogs were similar enough to Treants so are gone (plus there's plenty of frog-like faeries in the plane of Girls Gone Feywild!). Limbo is merged with 3 other planes to create the new chaotic realm of "Chaos Zone".

Personally I just hated the 2e name changes and Planescape just killed outer planes for me. RIP and good bye Cosmos Wheel! But these new plane names do suck.


----------



## Gentlegamer (Sep 29, 2007)

WotC's cromulent ability for naming will embiggen the game and all of its players.


----------



## jasin (Sep 29, 2007)

Simia Saturnalia said:
			
		

> I stand corrected.
> 
> Tolkien chose poorly in his choice of sources.



As hip as it might seem to belittle the likes of Tolkien, Leiber, Moorcock or Vance while giving a thumb up to the sacredcowburger, overdoing it just makes you looks silly.

What would be a good choice of sources, if Norse myth isn't? Can you list a couple of names that you think are cool, and which represent what you'd like to see in D&D?


----------



## Simia Saturnalia (Sep 29, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> As hip as it might seem to belittle the likes of Tolkien, Leiber, Moorcock or Vance while giving a thumb up to the sacredcowburger, overdoing it just makes you looks silly.
> 
> What would be a good choice of sources, if Norse myth isn't? Can you list a couple of names that you think are cool, and which represent what you'd like to see in D&D?



Tee hee. Cute, but I thought Tolkien was dry and unreadable at the age where fantasy and D&D seem like the coolest things on earth, and each time I pick them up since. I also don't remember mentioning Leiber (whom I enjoy a great deal), Moorcock (whom I have sadly read little of), or Vance (whom I consider a linguistic romp slightly moreso than a story), though your efforts at painting me as denigrating the four authors everybody has to talk about when discussing D&D is appreciated.

My call? Something pronounceable, linguistically tied to other names of its type, and evocative. Considering the effort Tolkien spent on the Elven languages, not just stealing whole cloth from the Norse would have been appreciated. Anything more will require discussion of my consulting fees, and this isn't the right forum.


----------



## jasin (Sep 29, 2007)

Simia Saturnalia said:
			
		

> Tee hee. Cute, but I thought Tolkien was dry and unreadable at the age where fantasy and D&D seem like the coolest things on earth, and each time I pick them up since. I also don't remember mentioning Leiber (whom I enjoy a great deal), Moorcock (whom I have sadly read little of), or Vance (whom I consider a linguistic romp slightly moreso than a story), though your efforts at painting me as denigrating the four authors everybody has to talk about when discussing D&D is appreciated.



The mention of Leiber, Moorcock and Vance was supposed to be a general comment, but it came out as if I was addressing it to you. I apologize for that. 



> My call? Something pronounceable, linguistically tied to other names of its type, and evocative. Considering the effort Tolkien spent on the Elven languages, not just stealing whole cloth from the Norse would have been appreciated. Anything more will require discussion of my consulting fees, and this isn't the right forum.



Quite right, it isn't the right forum for discussing your consulting fees. This is the forum for discussing D&D, 4E in particular, and names in 4E in particular. Thinking you, unlike everyone else here, should be paid for your opinions on the subject is incredibly pompous.


----------



## Baduin (Sep 29, 2007)

Simia Saturnalia said:
			
		

> My call? Something pronounceable, linguistically tied to other names of its type, and evocative.




Your wish is granted! My propositions:

Starkness
Tormance
Branchspell
Alppain
Poolingdred
Ifdawn Marest
Lusion Plain
Sant
Wombflash Forest
Muspel
Sinking Sea
Swaylone's Island
Teargeld
Matterplay
Threal
Lichstorm
Sarclash
Adage
Mornstab Pass

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Voyage_to_Arcturus


----------



## Simia Saturnalia (Sep 29, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> The mention of Leiber, Moorcock and Vance was supposed to be a general comment, but it came out as if I was addressing it to you. I apologize for that.



's groovy. There's a tendency to lump folks together on the internet..._they're_ always doing that. 


> Quite right, it isn't the right forum for discussing your consulting fees. This is the forum for discussing D&D, 4E in particular, and names in 4E in particular.



Then how the hell did we get to arguing about what Tolkien named his dwarves? That's before D&D ever came out, let alone 4th edition. I stated my dislike for the names of Tolkien's dwarves from the Hobbit - and wasn't the first, I might add - and this somehow caused a mammoth implosion in which all other possible avenues in this thread were diverted into the great anti-intellectual void I had become in the minds of others.







> Thinking you, unlike everyone else here, should be paid for your opinions on the subject is incredibly pompous.



Well, my opinions are free. Composing a dwarven language with enough root syllables and naming rules to put together a list of a dozen or so dwarvish names that I personally prefer to Tolkien's is a lot to ask while I'm at work, and I'd need to make a little coin off that. Besides, it really doesn't matter what names I put out there, one can easily just type the words "I prefer Tolkien's" and wheeee, they win internets! Rather than bother sustaining the issue, I tried to put it to bed. You're welcome to think of me as you wish - I've never lost a lick of sleep over the internet and won't start now - but my time isn't free.


----------



## Simia Saturnalia (Sep 29, 2007)

Baduin said:
			
		

> Your wish is granted! My propositions:
> 
> Starkness
> Tormance
> ...



That list really runs the gamut for me; Sinking Sea, Threal, Mornstab Pass, and Sant are all fine, Muspel puts me a little in mind of Norse myth (again) and is so-so. I really like Ifdawn Marest (I'd spell it differently to player-proof it, but I like two-word fantasy place names). The rest have too much real English in them for me.

Sounds like a curious read, though.


----------



## jasin (Sep 29, 2007)

Simia Saturnalia said:
			
		

> Then how the hell did we get to arguing about what Tolkien named his dwarves?



Because Tolkien's fantasy naming conventions and their quality are relevant to a discussion 4E fantasy naming conventions and their quality, what with both being the same thing: fantasy naming conventions.



> Well, my opinions are free. Composing a dwarven language with enough root syllables and naming rules to put together a list of a dozen or so dwarvish names that I personally prefer to Tolkien's is a lot to ask while I'm at work, and I'd need to make a little coin off that.



Oh, come off it. It's a big jump from "can you list a couple of names" to "composing a dwarven language with enough root syllables and naming rules to put together a list of a dozen or so dwarvish names".

Baduin didn't get paid for the list of names he likes, and I hardly expect his life and career to suffer for all the time he invested in compiling it.



> Besides, it really doesn't matter what names I put out there, one can easily just type the words "I prefer Tolkien's" and wheeee, they win internets!



Much like you did, with your dismissive comments on Tolkien's names? Well, yes, one could, but that doesn't really generate much constructive discussion, so the default assumption is (or should be) that one won't.



> Rather than bother sustaining the issue, I tried to put it to bed.



Again, come off it. Dismissively criticizing Tolkien's choice of names and then his choice of Norse mythology as a source in a D&D forum is more akin to banging with a ladle on an empty pot than putting anything to bed. You must be aware of that.

So I hoped you stirred the pot because you had something interesting to share; a source of fantasy names superior to Norse mythology, perhaps. But my impression is that all you had to share is how you're more discerning than the average D&D/fantasy fan because getting all googly eyed over Tolkien is beneath you.

Edit: Or perhaps not? I wrote the above paragraph before seeing your reply to Baduin. That was certainly more useful than "Tolkien's dwarf names suck." -- "What!? They're old Norse dwarf names!" -- "Oh yeah? Well, old Norse dwarf names suck." -- "So what names don't suck?" -- "Pay me to find out."


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Sep 30, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> to share; a source of fantasy names superior to Norse mythology, perhaps. But my impression is that all you had to share is how you're more discerning than the average D&D/fantasy fan because getting all googly eyed over Tolkien is beneath you.




You yourself seem to be under some sort of crazy misunderstanding that Tolkien though "I need some fantasy names!" and then though, like, at random "OOOOH NORSE!". I mean what? Tolkien chose Norse names because his setting was "maximum white people", which is to say Northern European mythology (minus the Celts).*

For a setting which isn't Ultra-Denmark or whatever, Norse names do rather, well, suck. They're moderately hard to pronounce and spell (hence Tolkien's anglicizations), they sound kinda dorky, on the whole, particularly to the modern mind, and they're very specific to a culture.

Sources of names, wise, well, here's a good source: http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/KateMonk/

Every culture has names suitable for fantasy. Tolkien was a linguist, not a great name-creator. He had very specific ideas about what he wanted, and I'm afraid that disliking his names and general naming style is not an "outre" or "psuedish" position, but a pretty normal one. I don't know many people who actively LIKE the way Tolkien named his characters/places.

Emerald Frost sucks very hard, though, whatever you think of Tolkien.

* = Not calling Tolkien a racist nor about to get in any debates on whether Hitler would have loved LotR or equally stupid nonsense, just sayin' is all, his setting was much "narrower" than most current Fantasy settings, much more about a specific culture and it's myths, rather than blending myths/cultures, as most authors do, or creating something entirely fantastical.


----------



## RFisher (Sep 30, 2007)

More examples of one person's idea of "good names" aren't going to get us anywhere. While it's true that most of our conversations boil down to differences in preferences or differences in how our brains work, there's usually enough commonalities to build a discussion on. Here you've got _nothing_. I could pull ten names from just about any source & not two people here will agree on which are "good" & which are "bad". Each person is a little faction of his own. There's not even enough commonalties for the humor label to work.

Best to just look beyond the names & substitute the ones that are--for you--the worst offenders.


----------



## Nifft (Sep 30, 2007)

All names are bad, because players aren't forced to take any of them seriously.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## pawsplay (Sep 30, 2007)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Personally, I like Mjóthvitnirfane and Hrothgarwyld. Let's use those names instead. Teh awesome!
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam




I actually did play a dwarf fighter named Hrothgarwyld once.


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## ogre (Sep 30, 2007)

Not sure if this has been mentioned...
But what about a compromise. Why not have these (to some) lame names be the 'common' name and then have the alternate real name. So the fey one would be some crazy fey sounding name, but the common name would be something simple and pronounceable, for the layman, so to speak.
Just a thought....


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## pawsplay (Sep 30, 2007)

EATherrian said:
			
		

> I think Feywild would be better as Feyweald.  Has a better sound and looks neat.  Of course that's just my opinion.




I just had the same thought.


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## Asmor (Sep 30, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Greenwood
> 
> Green Wood
> 
> Ha-ha! -- N




Nifft

Niff T

Ha-ha! -- A


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## heirodule (Oct 1, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> Next up on WotC's place name plate:
> 
> Elftree
> Dwarfhole
> ...




QFLOLS


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## blargney the second (Oct 1, 2007)

I'd love to see someone call a place Wetspot sometime.


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## Kunimatyu (Oct 1, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> I'd love to see someone call a place Wetspot sometime.




Wouldn't everyone just try and avoid it?


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## Lackhand (Oct 1, 2007)

urine the wetspot right now, IYKWIMAITYD!


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## Desdichado (Oct 1, 2007)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> That's absurd.  IL.



Absurd is a town in Illinois?!


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## Desdichado (Oct 1, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> For a setting which isn't Ultra-Denmark or whatever, Norse names do rather, well, suck. They're moderately hard to pronounce and spell (hence Tolkien's anglicizations), they sound kinda dorky, on the whole, particularly to the modern mind, and they're very specific to a culture.



It is ultra-England, after all, in many ways.

And the Norse were a huge component of the English population and language.  Tons of English words have a Norse root.  Perhaps you've heard of Danelaw, for instance?

Tolkien trying to create "a mythology for England" which ignored the Norse would be really bizarre.

Although, frankly, ignoring the Celts is also really bizarre, IMO, yet he did that.  IMO that's a glaring omission.


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## Lurks-no-More (Oct 1, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> IAlthough, frankly, ignoring the Celts is also really bizarre, IMO, yet he did that.  IMO that's a glaring omission.



IIRC, it was because Tolkien didn't like the Celtic languages, whereas he was a fan of the Germanic ones. And Finnish, of course.


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## Wormwood (Oct 1, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Although, frankly, ignoring the Celts is also really bizarre, IMO, yet he did that.  IMO that's a glaring omission.




Letter from JRR Tolkien to Stanley Unwin, 16 December 1937 (regarding, fittingly enough, a criticism of Tolkien's naming conventions.):



> [The names] are coherent and consistent and made upon two related linguistic formulae, so that they achieve a reality not fully achieved to my feeling by other name-inventors (say Swift or Dunsany!). Needless to say they are not Celtic! Neither are the tales. *I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and Welsh), and feel for them a certain distaste: largely for their fundamental unreason.* They have bright colour, but are like a broken stained glass window reassembled without design. They are in fact 'mad' as your reader says - but I don't believe I am.




Emphasis mine. In is other writings, Tolkien makes numerous references to his dislike for Celtic style.

That's an Anglo-Saxon for you, I suppose.


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## Desdichado (Oct 1, 2007)

Lurks-no-More said:
			
		

> IIRC, it was because Tolkien didn't like the Celtic languages, whereas he was a fan of the Germanic ones. And Finnish, of course.



_Au contraire_.  He was a fan of Welsh, at least (although he doesn't appear to have known much about it, he thought it was a very beautiful language) and Sindarin has very similar phonology and phonotactics to Welsh, believed by most to have been by design.

But for some reason, Tolkien doesn't appear to have been very fond of the Celtic tradition in British folklore.

At least in one regard, he had it right, though, and maybe that's why he did it.  The British languages, as a substrate to English, have had surprisingly little linguistic impact on the development of English.  Norse, on the other hand, had a very profound and significant impact.  Which is why Tolkien used Norse frequently when referring to cultures that were similar to his "default" culture; folks like the dwarves (who got their names from the same geographical and cultural area that Dale and Long Lake were in) were linguistic cousins to, say, the Rohirrim, just like the actual Norse were linguistic cousins to the Angles and Saxons.


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## Ruin Explorer (Oct 1, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> It is ultra-England, after all, in many ways.
> 
> And the Norse were a huge component of the English population and language.  Tons of English words have a Norse root.  Perhaps you've heard of Danelaw, for instance?
> 
> ...




I agree that's it's MEANT to be Ultra-England (definately not including Scotland and Wales), but to me, that's never how it came across. The Northern European traditions and languages, especially Norse, were very strong in England and the British Isles, but as you say, ignoring the Celts is freakin' bizarre. So to me, LotR never felt like an "English" story, let alone a "British" story, but rather some kind of "Northern European" story (like Beowolf, I guess), and closest he got to any single culture was definately Denmark, I'd say (which unsurprising, considering virtually all our "Anglo-Saxons" came from around there, as I understand it, which may be imperfectly).

I mean, maybe I'm not perfectly "English" enough to appreciate LotR's alleged "Englishness", given that my father is technically Scottish (though raised in England), but it just doesn't seem "English" to me at all. King Arthur, with it's wierd celtic roots, and it's straining via Anglo-Saxon culture and Christianity, seems much more like an "English" story to me.

I always wondered if the Elves were meant to be the Celts, but they never seemed much like them. Time for a LotR reboot and some re-envisioning, neh? <runs away and hides in a deep, dark place>


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## jasin (Oct 1, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> _Au contraire_.  He was a fan of Welsh, at least (although he doesn't appear to have known much about it, he thought it was a very beautiful language) and Sindarin has very similar phonology and phonotactics to Welsh, believed by most to have been by design.



Quite so.



			
				Tolkien said:
			
		

> "Most English-speaking people, for instance, will admit that cellar door is 'beautiful', especially if dissociated from its sense (and its spelling). More beautiful than, say, sky, and far more beautiful than beautiful. Well then, in Welsh for me cellar doors are extraordinarily frequent."



I couldn't find that specific Welsh phrase which I know he mentioned as particularly beautiful: an inscription he saw on a church, meaning something like "It was build in <year>".


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## Desdichado (Oct 1, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> I mean, maybe I'm not perfectly "English" enough to appreciate LotR's alleged "Englishness", given that my father is technically Scottish (though raised in England), but it just doesn't seem "English" to me at all. King Arthur, with it's wierd celtic roots, and it's straining via Anglo-Saxon culture and Christianity, seems much more like an "English" story to me.



Tolkien specifically called out King Arthur as a hybrid of Celtic legends and much later Norman French influences, and therefore not English at all.

But by English, he specifically meant Anglo-Saxon.  I think Tolkien believed that William of Orange winning the battle of Hastings in 1066 was one of the greatest tragedies of Western history.


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## jasin (Oct 1, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> I always wondered if the Elves were meant to be the Celts, but they never seemed much like them.



Tolkien mentioned somewhere that the closest Celts-analogue in his stories were the Dunlendings. Not very flattering, eh?



> Time for a LotR reboot and some re-envisioning, neh? <runs away and hides in a deep, dark place>



Now that was funny.


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## Ruin Explorer (Oct 1, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> Tolkien mentioned somewhere that the closest Celts-analogue in his stories were the Dunlendings. Not very flattering, eh?




Yeah that's the impression I got, and I was hoping it was wrong. I guess not!



			
				Hobo said:
			
		

> Tolkien specifically called out King Arthur as a hybrid of Celtic legends and much later Norman French influences, and therefore not English at all.
> 
> But by English, he specifically meant Anglo-Saxon.  I think Tolkien believed that William of Orange winning the battle of Hastings in 1066 was one of the greatest tragedies of Western history.




Hah! I guess Tolkien had a pretty unique idea on what "English" was. That explains a lot, though.


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## Desdichado (Oct 1, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> Tolkien mentioned somewhere that the closest Celts-analogue in his stories were the Dunlendings. Not very flattering, eh?



True, but also the people of Bree, and for that matter, much of the "indigenous" population of Gondor itself would be of that same stock.  Culturally they were pretty thoroughly "Numenorized", but they still originally had the same ancestry as the Dunlendings.

Actually, the people of Haleth, who were one of the "founding" families of Elf-friends (albeit the most stand-offish, and clearly unrelated linguistically to the other two) were also from that same stock.  They made up a vast continuum of the pre-Numenorean population of Eriador.

Check this essay out if you're a bit of a Tolkien fanatic and don't mind a little bit of mild speculation.  http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Fr_Ind.html

Good stuff.  I had independently reached pretty much the same conclusions from researching what I could through the _History of Middle-earth_ about the early state of human populations in Middle-earth.  But I tend to like Tolkien more than is good for me, clearly.


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## Clavis (Oct 1, 2007)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> In is other writings, Tolkien makes numerous references to his dislike for Celtic style.
> 
> That's an Anglo-Saxon for you, I suppose.




Now I can put my finger on why I always kind of disliked Tolkien. Besides the racist subtext of the tall, Aryan-looking elves versus the Orcs, who were "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types".

Oh, and the LOTR movies were WAY more fun than the snooze-inducing books.


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## Gloombunny (Oct 2, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> I'd love to see someone call a place Wetspot sometime.



They already did.  It's in Seattle.  Fun place to spend an evening, if you're into that sort of thing.  ^_-


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## Kunimatyu (Oct 12, 2007)

Reviving the thread -- "Dragon's Tail Cut"?

Guys, *get help now.*


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## Philotomy Jurament (Oct 12, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Reviving the thread -- "Dragon's Tail Cut"?



That's right.  Fear it, Fish-Boy.


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## Kunimatyu (Oct 12, 2007)

Philotomy Jurament said:
			
		

> That's right.  Fear it, Fish-Boy.




Hey, I'd be all about a "Trenchant Salmon Slam".


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## JohnSnow (Oct 12, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Tolkien specifically called out King Arthur as a hybrid of Celtic legends and much later Norman French influences, and therefore not English at all.
> 
> But by English, he specifically meant Anglo-Saxon.  I think Tolkien believed that William of Orange winning the battle of Hastings in 1066 was one of the greatest tragedies of Western history.




Slight nitpick...

William (of Normandy) the Conqueror won the battle of Hastings in 1066. He won it through subterfuge and deceit. His victory was pretty short-lived, since the English were still called "English" and still speaking "English," (with the primary tie to France being that they owned half of it) 300 years later.

By contrast, the only William of Orange with a strong connection to England was a Prince of Orange (in the Netherlands) who became King of England (as William III) in the 17th-century.


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## Ourph (Oct 12, 2007)

It WotC would just rip off names wholesale from Jack Vance for 4e the world would be a better place.


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## Prince of Happiness (Oct 12, 2007)

Gloombunny said:
			
		

> They already did.  It's in Seattle.  Fun place to spend an evening, if you're into that sort of thing.  ^_-




Into membership by the ton?

Here I go again, into the breach, on my own:

I submit "Coverdale:"


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## epochrpg (Oct 12, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> WotC,
> 
> You're great guys. I love all the changes I've heard about 4e so far, from encounter design, cosmology, points of light, PC mechanics -- the whole works.
> 
> ...




You forgot "Dragon's Tail Cut"


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## TwinBahamut (Oct 12, 2007)

JohnSnow said:
			
		

> Slight nitpick...
> 
> William (of Normandy) the Conqueror won the battle of Hastings in 1066. He won it through subterfuge and deceit. His victory was pretty short-lived, since the English were still called "English" and still speaking "English," (with the primary tie to France being that they owned half of it) 300 years later.
> 
> By contrast, the only William of Orange with a strong connection to England was a Prince of Orange (in the Netherlands) who became King of England (as William III) in the 17th-century.



Huh... Pretty big cultural bias here... So much stuff that is wrong.

Regardless, while _they_ called it "English" before and after, _people today_ call the languages before and after the Norman enforcement of the French language "Old English" and "Middle English". Besides, the "frenchness" of William the Conquerer is rather unimportant, considering Normandy has both a British and Viking heritage...


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## Kunimatyu (Oct 12, 2007)

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> Huh... Pretty big cultural bias here... So much stuff that is wrong.
> 
> Regardless, while _they_ called it "English" before and after, _people today_ call the languages before and after the Norman enforcement of the French language "Old English" and "Middle English". Besides, the "frenchness" of William the Conquerer is rather unimportant, considering Normandy has both a British and Viking heritage...




Alright, I'm calling shenanigans - no more 1066 stuff, unless you want to fork it in Off-Topic.

Resume discussion of WotC sucking at names!


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## Stalker0 (Oct 12, 2007)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Nifft
> 
> Niff T
> 
> Ha-ha! -- A




I will fully admit to this...that is the first time I have ever noticed that


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## Desdichado (Oct 12, 2007)

JohnSnow said:
			
		

> Slight nitpick...
> 
> William (of Normandy) the Conqueror won the battle of Hastings in 1066. He won it through subterfuge and deceit. His victory was pretty short-lived, since the English were still called "English" and still speaking "English," (with the primary tie to France being that they owned half of it) 300 years later.
> 
> By contrast, the only William of Orange with a strong connection to England was a Prince of Orange (in the Netherlands) who became King of England (as William III) in the 17th-century.



I've always heard him referred alternatively as William, Duke of Orange.

Although I probably shouldn't have called him William of Orange, because that sounds like the guy from the Glorious Revolution.


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## Daztur (Oct 12, 2007)

JohnSnow said:
			
		

> Slight nitpick...
> 
> William (of Normandy) the Conqueror won the battle of Hastings in 1066. He won it through subterfuge and deceit. His victory was pretty short-lived, since the English were still called "English" and still speaking "English," (with the primary tie to France being that they owned half of it) 300 years later.
> 
> By contrast, the only William of Orange with a strong connection to England was a Prince of Orange (in the Netherlands) who became King of England (as William III) in the 17th-century.




Slight nitpick

Orange is not in the Netherlands. It is in southern France (and has been since the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713). William's title as Prince of Orange was separate from his title of Statholder of the United Provinces.


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## Daztur (Oct 12, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> I've always heard him referred alternatively as William, Duke of Orange.
> 
> Although I probably shouldn't have called him William of Orange, because that sounds like the guy from the Glorious Revolution.



No William of Normandy (or William the Conquerer or William the Bastard) had nothing whatsoever to do with Orange.



> considering Normandy has both a British and Viking heritage



No, the Brittains are (suprisingly enough) in Brittainy, not Normandy. However William of Normandy did have a large contingent of soldiers from Brittainy along with him for his invasion.


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## Simia Saturnalia (Oct 12, 2007)

Get thee to Off-Topic, history wonks!


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## Desdichado (Oct 12, 2007)

Daztur said:
			
		

> No William of Normandy (or William the Conquerer or William the Bastard) had nothing whatsoever to do with Orange.



Boy, that is really weird.  I _know_ that I've heard him called William of Orange before---and repeatedly---but I must be losing my mind, because now the only reference to a William of Orange I can find is the guy who came over in 1688 or so to supplant James in the Glorious Revolution.  How in the world did I make that association between the two of them?  Am I totally losing it here?


			
				Daztur said:
			
		

> No, the Brittains are (suprisingly enough) in Brittainy, not Normandy. However William of Normandy did have a large contingent of soldiers from Brittainy along with him for his invasion.



Well, actually those are the Bretons from Brittany.  There's no group of people called the Brittains, although that sounds more like the British (from Britain.)  The names are very similar.

And yeah; the Normans as British and Viking?  Uh, no---they were Vikings way back in the time of Rollo, but they were pretty "francofied" by 1066.  They spoke a dialect of French and had pretty thoroughly intermarried with the French around them.


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## med stud (Oct 12, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> For a setting which isn't Ultra-Denmark or whatever, Norse names do rather, well, suck. They're moderately hard to pronounce and spell (hence Tolkien's anglicizations), they sound kinda dorky, on the whole, particularly to the modern mind, and they're very specific to a culture.




I agree with the above. Norse names doesn't sound good when pronounced by English speakers. Almost all vowels are pronounced differently in Nordic languages and in English.


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## Atlatl Jones (Oct 12, 2007)

WotC has a "story team" and a "mechanics team".  They need a "names team" too.  I love virtually all the mechanics changes and the story changes, but all the names have left me cold.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Oct 12, 2007)

fiddlerjones said:
			
		

> Oh I can totally come up with cool names.  I have this great method.
> I take two fantasy sounding words and stick them together!  It works every time.




Well, it works for German.


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## Ulrick (Oct 12, 2007)

At least those names are better than some in the old modules...

Beek Gwenders of Croodle
Fonkin Hoddypeaks
"Ogre" 
Edalsmirge 

And they couldn't even think up a name for Erac's Cousin.


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## Korgoth (Oct 12, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> And yeah; the Normans as British and Viking?  Uh, no---they were Vikings way back in the time of Rollo, but they were pretty "francofied" by 1066.  They spoke a dialect of French and had pretty thoroughly intermarried with the French around them.




Interesting etymology:

The stinky animal the peasant has to deal with: "cow" (Anglo-Saxon root).
The delicious product of said animal: "beef" (Old French root).

It's good to be the (Norman) king!

Back on topic...

WOTC sux at teh namez!

"Pardon me, sir knight, what cut of dragon do you prefer this evening?"
"The dragon's tail cut, sirrah, and be quick about it!"


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## Odhanan (Oct 13, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> All names are bad, because players aren't forced to take any of them seriously.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



With a shotgun pointed at their heads, they might.


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## Daztur (Oct 13, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Boy, that is really weird.  I _know_ that I've heard him called William of Orange before---and repeatedly---but I must be losing my mind, because now the only reference to a William of Orange I can find is the guy who came over in 1688 or so to supplant James in the Glorious Revolution.  How in the world did I make that association between the two of them?  Am I totally losing it here?
> 
> Well, actually those are the Bretons from Brittany.  There's no group of people called the Brittains, although that sounds more like the British (from Britain.)  The names are very similar.
> 
> And yeah; the Normans as British and Viking?  Uh, no---they were Vikings way back in the time of Rollo, but they were pretty "francofied" by 1066.  They spoke a dialect of French and had pretty thoroughly intermarried with the French around them.




1. Was misspelling Bretons. The Bretons were Celtic refugees from Britain who ran to France during the Anglo-Saxon invasions.

2. The Normans became heavily Francofied (they became sucky sailors for example) but they still kept some aspects of Viking culture, namely being very combative. Its no accident that you had Normans taking over England, Southern Italy and a good swath of the Holy Land the people knew how to fight...


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## Desdichado (Oct 14, 2007)

Yeah, I know who the Bretons are, I just wasn't sure if by "Brittains" you actually meant the Bretons or simply the British, or what.


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## Elemmakil (Oct 14, 2007)

*An alternative to Feywild*

I admit that I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if someone already mentioned this.

I think that Feyweald or Feyweld (from Middle English "weald=forest or uncultivated/wild land") would be better that Feywild.  Weald is pronounced weld, but I bet that most D&D players don't know that and would complain, so Feyweld is probably the better option.

If you wanted similar, but slightly less etymologically correct options, you could try Feywold or Feywald.  All in all, I like Feyweld best.

-Elemmakil

Edit: EATherrian already mentioned this.


----------



## Fifth Element (Oct 14, 2007)

Elemmakil said:
			
		

> I admit that I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if someone already mentioned this.
> 
> I think that Feyweald or Feyweld (from Middle English "weald=forest or uncultivated/wild land") would be better that Feywild.  Weald is pronounced weld, but I bet that most D&D players don't know that and would complain, so Feyweld is probably the better option.
> 
> ...



One little vowel makes a world of difference here. Feywild bugs me, but I really like Feyweld, or even Feywold.

It'll be Feyweld IMC, at the least.


----------



## Desdichado (Oct 15, 2007)

Elemmakil said:
			
		

> If you wanted similar, but slightly less etymologically correct options, you could try Feywold or Feywald.  All in all, I like Feyweld best.



Feywold wouldn't be less etymologically correct.  Wold is a legitimate "daughter word" of weald.


----------



## Gentlegamer (Oct 15, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> And the Norse were a huge component of the English population and language.  Tons of English words have a Norse root.  Perhaps you've heard of Danelaw, for instance?



Try this one: niggard


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## Desdichado (Oct 15, 2007)

That one's actually fairly obvious.  Most words with a doubled up g sound have a Norse etymology.  The doubled g was not a common native component of Old English.

Yeah, just looked it up: from Old norse _hnøggr_ but cognate to Old English _hnēaw_.


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## Gentlegamer (Oct 15, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> That one's actually fairly obvious.  Most words with a doubled up g sound have a Norse etymology.



Use that word in a spoken conversation with someone who is not a scholar of English/Norse etymology.


----------



## Desdichado (Oct 15, 2007)

Why?  After the flap of the guy in the DC mayor's office a few years ago who was fired and then rehired after the mayor had to admit that he had the vocabulary of a gerbil, I'd hope the "profile" of the word niggardly would have gone up and more people would recognize it.


----------

