# Persistent Spell: What does fixed range mean?



## skelso (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm sure this has been asked here before, but I searched through 12 pages of Feat threads and 8 pages of Spell threads and did not find it.

I've found the wording of the feat more than a little ambiguous.  I've seen a description on the Wotc website that seems to _imply_ that in addition to personal spells, it only works with spells that have a listed range, unassociated with your caster level.  Here's the link:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fr/20010418

I've had a player with a cleric going the route of Persistent spell and Divine Metamagic insist that it means spells with a specifically listed range, be it Close, Medium, Long, Touch, whatever, as long as it has a range listed.  However, he said he would settle for just Personal, Touch and the individually ranged spells like Detect Magic and Detect Thoughts.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## Rath the Brown (Jan 20, 2008)

Fixed range is a range that never changes. 

A range listed in feet (such as 60' for Detect Magic) is a fixed range. Every time you cast that spell, the range can never exceed 60'.

The range categories (Close, Medium, and Long) are not fixed ranges; the spells' range changes depending on caster level.


I've heard arguments that Touch is not a fixed range because it can change (Enlarge Person grants you reach, which would change the range of your Touch, etc). I don't know what to tell you about this one.


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## frankthedm (Jan 20, 2008)

skelso said:
			
		

> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



 Ban Persistent spell and Divine Metamagic. It is ridiculously overpowered.

Persistent spell was supposed to regulate itself to MUCH higher levels.


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## eamon (Jan 20, 2008)

This is a matter of adjudication, but generally it's taken to mean exactly those with a fixed range expressed in feet - in other words, *not touch*, but things like 0ft, 30ft. etc.  There are other threads both on these forums and on gleemax which explore why this interpretation is best.

Mass Lesser Vigor is in, Haste is out.  There are also quite a few 0ft. spells that are interesting.  Allowing range touch spells to be persisted is quite broken.  Divine agility for +10 dex, anyone?  There are more.


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## RigaMortus2 (Jan 21, 2008)

Rath the Brown said:
			
		

> Fixed range is a range that never changes.
> 
> A range listed in feet (such as 60' for Detect Magic) is a fixed range. Every time you cast that spell, the range can never exceed 60'.
> 
> ...




By that logic, something like Detect Magic with it's "fixed" 60' range is also technically not fixed, since you can use metamagic feats (or PrC abilities) which alter it's range and such.


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## Storme (Jan 22, 2008)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> By that logic, something like Detect Magic with it's "fixed" 60' range is also technically not fixed, since you can use metamagic feats (or PrC abilities) which alter it's range and such.




Ummm...huh?  


Anyway, the feat description is quite clear on what is and isn't allowed.  By extention, detect magic could not be made persistant.  All areas described must be true for the feat to apply.  If all but one apply, the feat cannot be used.  As I recall, after putting together a comprehensive list from PH and SC, ultimately all you end up are spells that have a range of Personal or a fixed area that originates from self that cannot be "discharged."


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## Hypersmurf (Jan 22, 2008)

Storme said:
			
		

> Anyway, the feat description is quite clear on what is and isn't allowed.  By extention, detect magic could not be made persistant.  All areas described must be true for the feat to apply.  If all but one apply, the feat cannot be used.  As I recall, after putting together a comprehensive list from PH and SC, ultimately all you end up are spells that have a range of Personal or a fixed area that originates from self that cannot be "discharged."




Wait, what?  Detect Magic has a fixed range and an area that originates from the caster and cannot be discharged - why could it not be made Persistent?  Especially given that it's one of the examples of a spell you need not maintain concentration on after applying the feat?

-Hyp.


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## skelso (Jan 22, 2008)

Storme said:
			
		

> Anyway, the feat description is quite clear on what is and isn't allowed.  By extention, detect magic could not be made persistant.  All areas described must be true for the feat to apply.  If all but one apply, the feat cannot be used.



I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here in these four sentences.  Detect Magic cannot be made persistent by extension of what?  Detect Magic is specifically listed as an example in the SRD.  Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "all areas described must be true.  Could you please elaborate?



> PERSISTENT SPELL [METAMAGIC]
> Prerequisite: Extend Spell.
> 
> Benefit: A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged.  You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence of absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal.  Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.  A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level.


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## Hypersmurf (Jan 22, 2008)

Just a note to point out my favourite core spell to benefit from the Persistent Spell feat (though some method of lowering the slot is necessary, since it ends up being a 9th level Bard slot or a 10th level Sor/Wiz slot): _Fear_.

A cone of terror that inspires panic in everyone who walks in front of you for 24 hours?  Sign me up!  

-Hyp.


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## eamon (Jan 22, 2008)

The PHB2 has the hilarious (well, to me anyhow...) Cloud of Knives spell.  Be surrounded by a cloud of knives and shoot one as a free action each round ;-).  Magic convalescence heals you 1 hp per level of spell cast within 20ft, which is probably also not very strong but seems somehow amusing ;-)

I believe ultimate magus allows paying for meta-magic feats using two spells slots.  Since you lose a lot of casting progression, it's not a very powerful class, but if you want to persist up to 5th level arcane spells by paying for them with spell slots - which the PrC has in abundance - then you can persist fear, sure, not problem!


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