# Save or DIE spells level by level.



## Cyan (Apr 22, 2003)

Hi!
I'm looking to compile a spell list of save of die spells level by level. By die I also mean incapacitating spells that leave you to the mercy of you enemies (do you think charm qualifies?). 
Optimally there should be spells at each level that targets different saves(Fort, Ref, Will). Different lists for the different casters (divine , wizard).

Lets have a go at it people and see how well we can do!


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## ashockney (Apr 22, 2003)

Here's a start from a list I had previously built:
4th:
Phantasmal Killer

5th:
Cloudkill (6HD or less), Slay Living

6th:
Disintegrate, Circle of Death(9 HD or less), Harm

7th:
Prismatic Spray (Poison), Destruction, Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos (4 HD or less)

8th:
Earthquake, Symbol of Death (150 hp)

9th:
Power Word, Kill (100 hp - targeted, 20 hp - area), Weird, Wail of the Banshee, Implosion


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 22, 2003)

1st - sleep


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## Sniktch (Apr 22, 2003)

Are you including all published spells in your search?  If so we have spells like Heart Stop from BoVD, for instance.  I don't have my books with me, but I could run through them when I'm back home.

I wouldn't really put charm spells on the list but Hold and Dominate I might...


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 22, 2003)

2nd/3rd - hold person

5th? - hold monster


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## Gez (Apr 22, 2003)

That probably belong to the Rules forum.

_Slay living_ is a true save or die spell, contrarily to _hold_, _harm_ or _sleep_. My halfling rogue had the joy of rolling a natural 1 on a _slay living_ trap last sunday. Now he's been reincarnated as a human, and is majorly *expletive* off by this cumbersome and clunky new body...


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## Sniktch (Apr 22, 2003)

Yeah, I agree, Gez.  But in the first post he says hes looking for spells that leave you helpless also.

One I like from BoVD - 1st level - Sorrow - subject creature is helpless for 1 rd.  Will save I believe - I've been using this on the melee fighters a lot when running evil priests...


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## Cloudgatherer (Apr 22, 2003)

Let's see now... if we just stick to PHB...

Save or Die:
Phantasmal Killer 4th
Slay Living Clr 5th
Circle of Death 6th
Disintegrate 6th
Destruction Clr 7th
Finger of Death 7th
Prismatic Spray/Wall/Sphere 7th/7th/9th
Symbol 8th
Implosion Clr 9th
Weird 9th
Wail of the Banshee 9th

Save or (uh-oh):
Color Spray 1st
Sleep 1st
Hold Person/Monster 3rd/5th
Halt Undead 3rd (for undead, but has an interesting clause for release...)
Otiluke's Resilent/Telekinetic Sphere 4th/8th (essentially removes one from combat)
Dominate Person/Monster 5th/9th
Polymorph Other 4th
Flesh to Stone 6th
Plane Shift 7th (questionable, IMO)

What!?!? No Save?:
Forcecage 7th
Power Word, Stun 7th (can't act for several rounds)
Maze 8th
Otto's Irresistable Dance 8th
Imprisonment 9th
Power Word, Kill 9th
Temporal Stasis 9th
Cleric death domain ability


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## Gizzard (Apr 22, 2003)

On a slightly different tack, theres the Clerical Death Domain ability.  Despite being used by spellcasters it's not exactly a spell.  Still, it can kill at low level with no save and its in the "Core Rules".


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## takyris (Apr 22, 2003)

What about the clerical Command spells?  If you shout "Freeze!", isn't that effectively the same as a Hold person?  easier to save against, and with a short duration, but still, helpless is helpless.

-Tacky


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## Voadam (Apr 22, 2003)

level 1 color spray, sleep
level 2 web, goul's touch, tasha's uncontrollable hideous laughter
level 3 slow (iffy) hold person
level 4 phantasmal killer, polymorph other
level 5 feeblemind

level 1 command
level 2 hold person


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## Al (Apr 22, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> *What about the clerical Command spells?  If you shout "Freeze!", isn't that effectively the same as a Hold person?  easier to save against, and with a short duration, but still, helpless is helpless.
> 
> -Tacky *




This one caught me out as well.  According to the FAQ, the best you can do with Command is to render them either stunned or prone.  Personally, I think that this nerfs the spell (especially compared with Color Spray and Sleep), but then the FAQ is the FAQ.


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## Cedric (Apr 22, 2003)

Yes, but then there is greater command. Where they are prone for numbers of rounds per level. 

And I would allow a coup de gras on that. 

Cedric


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## andargor (Apr 23, 2003)

Cedric said:
			
		

> *And I would allow a coup de gras on that.
> *




<Rant Mode>
Egads, that means "hit of fat". It's spelled *coup de grâce*.
</Rant Mode>

Andargor


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## 00durrin (Apr 23, 2003)

when was power word kill errata'd?
it now kills anyone with 165hp or less?


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## Darklone (Apr 23, 2003)

Voadam said:
			
		

> *level 2 web, goul's touch, tasha's uncontrollable hideous laughter
> level 3 slow (iffy) hold person
> level 4 phantasmal killer, polymorph other
> level 5 feeblemind
> ...




Web? Tashas Laughter? Slow? All these incapacitate you, but you're not helpless.

I was wondering that most here didn't mention Colour spray...


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## ashockney (Apr 23, 2003)

00durrin said:
			
		

> *when was power word kill errata'd?
> it now kills anyone with 165hp or less? *




Sorry 00durrin, that was my fault.  I will go edit that out of my post.  I copied and pasted over from my own list.  That is errata for my campaign based on what I felt the approrpriate level should be.  The list, for me, comes from developing a rules subsystem for insta-kill spells (including Harm).  I had an FR Archmage with Greater Spell Focus running around my campaign laying waste to everything, so I had to put some limits down.  Sorry for the confusion.


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## Numion (Apr 23, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> *What about the clerical Command spells?  If you shout "Freeze!", isn't that effectively the same as a Hold person?  easier to save against, and with a short duration, but still, helpless is helpless.
> *




One could always argue if this would work in a fantasy setting. Command "freeze" came to widespread use in the 20th century. Before that did people know how to freeze, except in cold weather?


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## LazarusLong42 (Apr 23, 2003)

Did y'all forget _meteor swarm_?

Sure, it's an area effect, but if someone's standing in the straight line between you and the origin point, it's 24d6 damage (ave. 84, max 144) with _no save_.

Not as cool as a targeted _power word, kill_, but at Epic levels it could be maximized and empowered...


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## Dr. Zoom (Apr 23, 2003)

Cedric said:
			
		

> *Yes, but then there is greater command. Where they are prone for numbers of rounds per level.
> 
> And I would allow a coup de gras on that.
> 
> Cedric *



You would allow a CDG on a prone target?


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## Cloudgatherer (Apr 23, 2003)

LazarusLong42 said:
			
		

> *Did y'all forget meteor swarm?
> *




Meteor swarm is pure hit point damage.  It's good to kill someone by beating them with large objects (meteors), but it does not make the target incapacitated or slain automatically.

Also, if we are including super damage spells, Creeping Doom would be at the top of the list....

I'll go back and edit my list...


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## Voadam (Apr 23, 2003)

Darklone said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Web? Tashas Laughter? Slow? All these incapacitate you, but you're not helpless.
> 
> I was wondering that most here didn't mention Colour spray... *




Well since the original poster asked for a list of spells that incapacitated it seems approriate to bring them up.  

and you may notice I did list color spray.


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## Gez (Apr 24, 2003)

andargor said:
			
		

> *
> 
> <Rant Mode>
> Egads, that means "hit of fat". It's spelled coup de grâce.
> ...




Yeah, it annoys me too. Why don't English-speaking people just use "merciful blow" rather than mistreat French ?


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## Shard O'Glase (Apr 24, 2003)

because french deserve mistreating  

Honestly I don't see how its something to get irritated over, correct people if you feel like it.  But get irritated that people can't spell all terms even when in another language is just wierd.


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## Shard O'Glase (Apr 24, 2003)

Cloudgatherer said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Meteor swarm is pure hit point damage.  It's good to kill someone by beating them with large objects (meteors), but it does not make the target incapacitated or slain automatically.
> 
> ...




And its really sissy HP damage to boot. 

To add one to the lsit though not a ral save or die, i think Bigbies crushing hand is brutal.  Its large with an abusrd str, and attackbs with a fighter bab with I think the wizards int bonus to help.  face it if medium sized you're grappled and crushed.  You need team amtes vs this spell or teleport with a nice concentration check.


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## BelgarathTAO (Apr 24, 2003)

I know with my group an Evards Tenticle (sp?) is usually make the first save or you're out of luck!

Belgarath the Ancient One
Griffon Press - Prepare to expore the depths of Strata...


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## Gez (Apr 24, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *But get irritated that people can't spell all terms even when in another language is just wierd. *




Weird, not wierd!

Or where you just being _rougish_ with that _tounge_ ?


D)





			
				BelgarathTAO said:
			
		

> *Evards Tenticle*




Evard's black tentacles.


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## Shard O'Glase (Apr 25, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Weird, not wierd!
> 
> ...




Just a bad typist.  Though that's one word I wouldn't begrudge anyone spelling wrong.  I before E except after C or when it sounds like A like in neighbor or weigh.  Weird doesn't qualify, so it's an excpetion to the rule.  Weird isn't it.


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## isoChron (Apr 25, 2003)

Cloudgatherer said:
			
		

> *Let's see now... if we just stick to PHB...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




Wall of Force, hemispherical version or spherical version don't have a save either. It is a 5th level spell instead of 7th.
This spell doesn't have a 1500gp material component and lasts long enough to kill the victim. 
At least with the hemispherical version it should be no problem. Leave a gap at the bottom to cast a spell to the area inside like fireballs, fogs, etc...
In the SRD there is a M under Components, but no Component is listed in the text... Copy Paste Error I think. Nearly all other wall spells that can capture a creature get a save, are easier to break and have at least a flavour material component. Only Wall of thorns seems to be breaking this series, too. But this is a druid spell only. Hmm...

Well, looking forward to 3.5e I hope this inconsistencies will be addressed.

BYE


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## Caliban (Apr 25, 2003)

isoChron said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Wall of Force, hemispherical version or spherical version don't have a save either. It is a 5th level spell instead of 7th.
> This spell doesn't have a 1500gp material component and lasts long enough to kill the victim.
> ...




It is.


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## Cloudgatherer (Apr 25, 2003)

Wall of Force is supposed to have a reflex save to avoid it (like the other walls spells).  I'm almost certain it is in the errata.


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## Caliban (Apr 25, 2003)

Cloudgatherer said:
			
		

> *Wall of Force is supposed to have a reflex save to avoid it (like the other walls spells).  I'm almost certain it is in the errata. *




I'm afraid it's not.   I've looked.   In fact, the FAQ confirms that it does not have a reflex save. 

This is addressed in 3.5, although not in the way you might think.


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## Number47 (Apr 25, 2003)

Death Knell is a save or die spell, even though you are pretty much dead already.

Clarification: Prismatic Wall is an eighth level spell, correct? List above has it at seventh.


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## Shard O'Glase (Apr 25, 2003)

Caliban said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm afraid it's not.   I've looked.   In fact, the FAQ confirms that it does not have a reflex save.
> 
> This is addressed in 3.5, although not in the way you might think. *




If it doens't have a save it's still wrong.  


Actually I'm expecting an expensive component of some kind.  Though I'd like a move away from components, and give exceptional spells an xp cost.

And either a level bump or a component would work as a balance IMO.  Stoneskin may be great but I enver cast it because it costs too much.


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## Caliban (Apr 25, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If it doens't have a save it's still wrong.
> 
> ...




  It's not the solution your thinking of.  

You will see soon.  I wish I could say more.


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## Shard O'Glase (Apr 25, 2003)

Oh well, I appreciate you sticking with your NDA.  people who do make playtesting a more common occurance, and all RPG books need good playtesters.


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## Cloudgatherer (Apr 25, 2003)

Caliban said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm afraid it's not.   I've looked.   In fact, the FAQ confirms that it does not have a reflex save. *




I could *swear* a sage e-mail said it was supposed to have a reflex save.... Otherwise, I could have a lot of fun with this spell...  I've been using it primarily for defense (as I thing that is the spirit of the spell), but this could easily be abused during combat by trapping anyone who can't teleport (fighters, rogues, rangers, paladins, even clerics).  Essentially, it becomes a "no save, no SR and be removed from combat" spell.



			
				Caliban said:
			
		

> *
> This is addressed in 3.5, although not in the way you might think. *




Of course not.  some of the 3.5 changes make sense, others are from left field...


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