# P1 King of the Trollhaunt Warrens - Fantastic!



## MerricB (Oct 23, 2008)

I received my copy of _King of the Trollhaunt Warrens_ yesterday, and I have one word to describe it: _Fantastic!_ (imagine Christopher Eccleston saying it for best effect).

I love the evocation of Celtic mythology (I should; my last big campaign used some of the same roots), and it really feels like a great, significant adventure.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and pronounce it the best adventure Wizards have produced... for any edition of D&D.

Beats me if I'll feel that way in a week or so when I sit down to review it for real, but my initial impressions are incredibly favourable. 

Cheers!


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## Rechan (Oct 23, 2008)

MerricB said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and pronounce it the best adventure Wizards have produced... for any edition of D&D.



Hear that rumbling?

The nerd fury is gathering.

I'm going for higher ground.


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## DrunkonDuty (Oct 23, 2008)

Hey Merric.
Do you think it'd be an easy convert to other systems/editions? It's just that I'm a bit of a grognard...


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## MerricB (Oct 23, 2008)

DrunkonDuty said:


> Hey Merric.
> Do you think it'd be an easy convert to other systems/editions? It's just that I'm a bit of a grognard...




I think it's an easy convert, but that's mainly because I just throw out the monster stats and put in the stats from the older editions. (I do exactly the same thing with Castle Zagyg for C&C/1e->4e conversion). Conceptually the encounters can be run as written. Balance-wise, may give more problems. Just pay attention and you should be fine.

Cheers!


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## doctorhook (Oct 23, 2008)

I just got my copy! Skimming through it briefly, it seems cool!

I haven't been able to find any direct connections between this adventure and _H3_ though, which I would've liked. Lemme know if you've spotted one!

Also, I really hope to see a Side Trek for this adventure in _Dungeon_!


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## Obergnom (Oct 23, 2008)

There are allready to well fitting "plug ins"... Dark Heart of Mithrendain and Claws of Tyranny. (I will try to use both of them) They add some nice RP opportunities, too.


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## Klaus (Oct 23, 2008)

MerricB said:


> I received my copy of _King of the Trollhaunt Warrens_ yesterday, and I have one word to describe it: _Fantastic!_ (imagine Christopher Eccleston saying it for best effect).
> 
> I love the evocation of Celtic mythology (I should; my last big campaign used some of the same roots), and it really feels like a great, significant adventure.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and pronounce it the best adventure Wizards have produced... for any edition of D&D.
> 
> ...



That place, for me, is occupied by Red Hand of Doom. But I'm eager to see what P1 is like. Didn't quite like H2 and H3.


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## Cadfan (Oct 23, 2008)

I liked H1.
Didn't like H2.
Haven't gotten to H3 yet, but I think I will like it just because its so darn retro.

I don't think I'll be doing P1, unfortunately, because I'm about to break the campaign and start a homebrew campaign.  And my homebrew campaign is going to use the shadowfell and the feywild as major elements.  Because my players are all new to D&D, they have no preconceptions about either of these places.  This means that I have a blank slate to work with, and it will be easier for me to invoke a sense of wonder.  I don't want to ruin my chances by running some of them through a different version of the feywild before the homebrew starts, so I won't use P1.

Except that... now MerricB has me curious.  I actually respect his opinions, and now I'm worried that I may be missing out.  Is it worth buying just to read and learn from?  And if so, why?  Hurry up with that review.


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## The_Gneech (Oct 23, 2008)

This one looks like it might have promise; I'll check it out for converting to my _Saga_ game. The main problem for me, assuming it's good, is finding some way to make it more than "_Red Hand of Doom_ -- with trolls!" considering we're just finishing up _RHoD_.

-The Gneech


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 23, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> I liked H1.
> Didn't like H2.
> Haven't gotten to H3 yet, but I think I will like it just because its so darn retro.
> 
> ...



I really don't know if I want to run H1 to E3. I've started them, and I bought them up to P1 now (I haven't taken a deeper look that, though). But I also really want to flesh out and run a homebrew campaign!


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## Nebulous (Oct 23, 2008)

Klaus said:


> That place, for me, is occupied by Red Hand of Doom. But I'm eager to see what P1 is like. Didn't quite like H2 and H3.




Yeah, although i never ran it, RHoD looks like one of the top adventures (although my tippy top fave is probably Return to the Tomb of Horrors).

I liked H1 a lot, and i plan to run H2 and maybe H3.  I received Trollhaunt yesterday, and after a cursory glance through it, yes, it does look very cool.  It takes us a while to get through campaigns though, so at the rate we're going, assuming I run H2 and H3, we won't get to P1 for probably another 6-9 months.


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## Joshua Randall (Oct 23, 2008)

I thought H1 was solid if uninspired. 

H2, however, seemed haphazard -- like "here's a collection of cool encounters; we can't be bothered to come up with a coherent explanation for them so we'll just shove 'em in the Underdark and call it a day."

Haven't got H3 or P1. But I, too, respect Merric's opinion and would like to see a full review of it (P1). 



Nebulous said:


> Yeah, although i never ran it, RHoD looks like one of the top adventures (although my tippy top fave is probably Return to the Tomb of Horrors).



You're my kindred spirit, then. Those two adventures represent the cream of the crop for 3e and 2e, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Arnwyn (Oct 23, 2008)

I'm very intrigued (though skeptical).


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## Vayden (Oct 23, 2008)

Yeah - I have one group which I'm running through the H-series pretty much straight up, and I'm finding it a bit boring. I'm cutting out certain pieces and adding bits in, but in general their main weakness is that they don't really have any story. Red Hand was nice because the story was right up in your face - be a hero or this entire vale dies. 

On the other hand, while H1 + H2 haven't blown my socks off as adventures yet, the H series has definitely been worth the purchase for me. In my home-brew campaign, which started with H1 and then went homebrew, I've thrown in many of the new monsters and items -  Eaters of Knowledge from H2, the artifact from H3, the Norkers from H2, etc; I'm also planning to lift the Well of Demons encounter out of H2, re-flavor it for a Yeenoghu theme, and run them through that as part of the story next session. So I'm definitely enjoying the H-series, even if I don't think they're great adventures so far. P1 sounds more intriguing now that you mention it - I was going to buy it anyway in a couple months, but I guess I'll have to pick it up now.


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## Rechan (Oct 23, 2008)

I do think the P1 foldout map is really cool too. One is a big cavern (the cavern to the Great Warren), and the other is a combat map for a town. Very very re-usable.

(On the topic of best adventures, I would say Speaker of Dreams. It was probably the first honest module I ever bought.)


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## Nebulous (Oct 23, 2008)

For H1 and H2, i was planning on linking them with a demonic theme, and probably tying Orcus/Kalarel back into H2 a little bit, just for some cohesion. 

H3 looks even more like a mish-mash of encounters put together than H2 does.  I might not even run that one yet, i don't know.  One thing i do like about H2 is that there is plenty of room to create new encounters.


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## Cadfan (Oct 23, 2008)

The thing about the H series is that its not really a series.  Each one is designed to be used with existing campaigns, and in the absence of each other.


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## Rechan (Oct 23, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> The thing about the H series is that its not really a series.  Each one is designed to be used with existing campaigns, and in the absence of each other.



Much like the 3e adventures.


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## Vayden (Oct 23, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> The thing about the H series is that its not really a series.  Each one is designed to be used with existing campaigns, and in the absence of each other.




I'm aware of that. I just feel that each has its weaknesses. H1 has a fairly strong villain and plot-hook, but the adventure itself is pretty much a straight up dungeon crawl, and it starts to drag after a while. H2 has a very nice setting, with a lot of creative room to tweak and customize it, but the "plot" isn't very compelling -> "Congratulations Mario! I'm sorry, the slaves are in another section of the dungeon!" H3 I haven't looked at in detail yet - I like the concept a lot, but 3 levels feels like a very long time to be basically caught in an arbitrary trap. The pyramid sucks you in, and you don't get out for 3 levels worth of play (7.5 sessions by general estimation, aka 2 months for most groups). 

I'm not bashing the series intentionally - like I said, I've gotten great use out of them. I just feel that each one has some major weaknesses.


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## Logan_Bonner (Oct 23, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> I just got my copy! Skimming through it briefly, it seems cool!
> 
> I haven't been able to find any direct connections between this adventure and _H3_ though, which I would've liked. Lemme know if you've spotted one!
> 
> Also, I really hope to see a Side Trek for this adventure in _Dungeon_!




If there were, _hypothetically_, a Side Trek article, I think it would, _hypothetically_, have some encounters that tied into P2, but maybe not anything that ties into H3.


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## Frostmarrow (Oct 23, 2008)

WotC_Logan said:


> If there were, _hypothetically_, a Side Trek article, I think it would, _hypothetically_, have some encounters that tied into P2, but maybe not anything that ties into H3.




_Hypothetically_, you should know. Love your work.


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## Jack99 (Oct 23, 2008)

WotC_Logan said:


> If there were, _hypothetically_, a Side Trek article, I think it would, _hypothetically_, have some encounters that tied into P2, but maybe not anything that ties into H3.


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## Cadfan (Oct 23, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Much like the 3e adventures.



I wasn't saying that as an attack.  It seems to me that a lot of people have been looking at the H modules as if they were some kind of larger campaign, and they're really not.


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## MerricB (Oct 23, 2008)

I like Red Hand of Doom, but the final act is fatally flawed. (And yes, I have run it). After a bunch of really thematic encounters, the final fortress is "let's fight one massive encounter after another" which didn't quite work for me.

H1-3 have hooks that lead one from the other (and occasionally quite good hooks), but they're not otherwise connected. I'm fine with that. Individually - well, I've reviewed H1 and H2 already (see the Reviews section on EN World). The original set of 8 3E modules were more connected than the H series; there were a bunch of ongoing themes. Some standalone, some brought lots of threads together: especially the finale.

Rechan, I really, really enjoyed Speaker in Dreams. There's a few who don't like it, but I'm not one of those.

I think one of the reasons I like P1 so much is that it isn't too long. Each of the adventure areas is quite managable.

One thing I really, really, really like about 4e adventure design is when the designers put in interludes back in town to break up the adventuring flow and give the appearance of the monsters reacting to the PCs actions. (In fact, Speaker in Dreams also had the PCs being ambushed after they got annoying - it's a strong storytelling tactic).

Cheers!


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## Rechan (Oct 23, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> I wasn't saying that as an attack.  It seems to me that a lot of people have been looking at the H modules as if they were some kind of larger campaign, and they're really not.



I was just pointing out that the 3e adventures wern't really linked either, to remind everyone in the thread of that fact. 

We're all good.  

In fact, I can't think of WotC doing any modules that were linked.


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## MerricB (Oct 23, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I was just pointing out that the 3e adventures wern't really linked either, to remind everyone in the thread of that fact.
> 
> We're all good.
> 
> In fact, I can't think of WotC doing any modules that were linked.




Barrow of the Forgotten King, The Sinister Spire, and Fortress of the Yuan Ti are three directly linked adventures.

As I recall the final three Realms adventures are also linked, but I haven't really looked them over in much detail.

Cheers!


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## Rechan (Oct 23, 2008)

MerricB said:


> I think one of the reasons I like P1 so much is that it isn't too long. Each of the adventure areas is quite managable.



Originally I thought that P1 had a lot of encounters. Then I counted them out. 13 in part 1, 5 in part 2, 6 in part 3. Then I compared that to KotS. There really aren't that many in comparison.



> One thing I really, really, really like about 4e adventure design is when the designers put in interludes back in town to break up the adventuring flow and give the appearance of the monsters reacting to the PCs actions.



That is fairly nice. 

I did find one flaw with the module:
[sblock]You fight Skalmad *4 times*. You also fight him twice in a row at the end. That's just ridiculous.[/sblock]


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## Klaus (Oct 23, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> For H1 and H2, i was planning on linking them with a demonic theme, and probably tying Orcus/Kalarel back into H2 a little bit, just for some cohesion.
> 
> H3 looks even more like a mish-mash of encounters put together than H2 does.  I might not even run that one yet, i don't know.  One thing i do like about H2 is that there is plenty of room to create new encounters.



I'm running H1, but after it I'm linking to other adventures, based on an upcoming invasion from shadar-kai. From it, I'll go with Icy Spire (Dungeon), then Scepter Tower of Spellguard (FR adventure), then Siege on Bordrin's Watch (Dungeon) and culminating with Shadowrift of the Umbraforge (Dungeon), so the PCs can make a surgical strike to take down the mastermind of the invasion.

Sure, levels will have to be adjusted left-and-right, but the two parter of Bordrin's Watch and Umbraforge remind me of a Helm's Deep/Mordor thing.


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## Prism (Oct 23, 2008)

MerricB said:


> I like Red Hand of Doom, but the final act is fatally flawed. (And yes, I have run it). After a bunch of really thematic encounters, the final fortress is "let's fight one massive encounter after another" which didn't quite work for me.




As a player of RHoD I agree with you there. Great adventure, almost perfect up to the town battle and then for us at least a TPK. The final battle was our last before 4e and really helped illustrate the problems with buffs and dispels at those levels.

Again as a player I am enjoying H1 and H2 however I'm starting to strive for a bit more meat to the campaign. The modules are fairly combat heavy which I'm still enjoying greatly but it won't last forever

Having also recently been part of a 3e full on celtic campaign (alternate earth - formorians, Balor, hags, druids etc ) P1 sounds very interesting


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## The Little Raven (Oct 23, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I did find one flaw with the module:
> [sblock]You fight Skalmad *4 times*. You also fight him twice in a row at the end. That's just ridiculous.[/sblock]




I'm curious as to why you'd think that 



Spoiler



fighting the main villain multiple times


 is a bad thing. I can understand why you'd think 



Spoiler



fighting him twice in a row


 is a bad thing, but I can't see why the first is bad.


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## Shroomy (Oct 23, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I did find one flaw with the module:
> [sblock]You fight Skalmad *4 times*. You also fight him twice in a row at the end. That's just ridiculous.[/sblock]




I don't have the adventure in front of me, but:

[sblock]I only remember two combats with Skalmad in the adventure, once with his retinue in the corridor, and the second in his throne room, where he escapes into the Feywild.  The final combat at the end was with Vard (who possessed Skalmad).  And while both of the encounters with Skalmad occurred in the Great Warren (and are presented in that part of the adventure), I thought the adventure intended for the PCs to leave the Great Warrens after the first battle and return to Moonstair to help repulse the invasion.[/sblock]

Am I totally misremembering the adventure?


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## Rechan (Oct 24, 2008)

The Little Raven said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to why you'd think that fighting the main villain multiple times is a bad thing. I can understand why you'd think fighting himis a bad thing, but I can't see why the first is bad.







Shroomy said:


> I don't have the adventure in front of me, but:
> 
> [sblock]I only remember two combats with Skalmad in the adventure, once with his retinue in the corridor, and the second in his throne room, where he escapes into the Feywild.  The final combat at the end was with Vard (who possessed Skalmad).  And while both of the encounters with Skalmad occurred in the Great Warren (and are presented in that part of the adventure), I thought the adventure intended for the PCs to leave the Great Warrens after the first battle and return to Moonstair to help repulse the invasion.[/sblock]
> 
> Am I totally misremembering the adventure?



[sblock]You are remembering correctly. Although 1) The PCs might not go help the invasion. (Hey, it could happen.) 2) I was counting Vard as "Fight with Skalmad #3". 

To answer you, Little Raven, it didn't sit right with me. My main objection is the "Fight Vard twice, one right after another", which I find lame. I just am suspicious some groups would get more irritated than enthusiastic about battling Skalmad/Vard on multiple occasions. Especially if they manage to kill him twice. It might come across as Dues Ex Machina.[/sblock]


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## MerricB (Oct 24, 2008)

Rechan said:


> [sblock]To answer you, Little Raven, it didn't sit right with me. My main objection is the "Fight Vard twice, one right after another", which I find lame. I just am suspicious some groups would get more irritated than enthusiastic about battling Skalmad/Vard on multiple occasions. Especially if they manage to kill him twice. It might come across as Dues Ex Machina.[/sblock]




Doesn't bother me at all: it is really all part of the mythic feel of the adventure, especially driving home the threat you're facing.

It's a very good example of "show, don't tell".

It's not "there's this terrible threat out there you have to stop", it's actually making the PCs experience the terrible threat. And the PCs should get the explanation when they return to town. 

Cheers!


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## DrunkonDuty (Oct 24, 2008)

> I think it's an easy convert, but that's mainly because I just throw out the monster stats and put in the stats from the older editions. (I do exactly the same thing with Castle Zagyg for C&C/1e->4e conversion). Conceptually the encounters can be run as written. Balance-wise, may give more problems. Just pay attention and you should be fine.
> 
> Cheers!




Thanks for that mate. Think I'll give it a look see, might fit into my current campaign.


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## legiondevil (Oct 24, 2008)

The only thing that surprised me as I was flipping through Booklet #1 was the inclusion of a 19th Level Solo Creature.  And, he's nowhere in the module.  I suppose I just was giddy at the thought of the group running into him at one point (or the new displacer beast that's on the page facing him).  

Then I thought to myself..."what the heck?  That'd be 5 levels above them...they could take it...probably...I'm sure I could fit it in at the end..."

...so now, I'm going to have to carefully read the second book and see if/where I can put him.


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## Shazman (Oct 24, 2008)

Klaus said:


> That place, for me, is occupied by Red Hand of Doom. But I'm eager to see what P1 is like. Didn't quite like H2 and H3.




I agree.  Red Hand of Doom was awesome with the exception of the final encounter.  It pretty much screamed grudge monster to me.


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## Joshua Randall (Oct 24, 2008)

MerricB said:


> One thing I really, really, really like about 4e adventure design is when the designers put in interludes back in town to break up the adventuring flow and give the appearance of the monsters reacting to the PCs actions. (In fact, Speaker in Dreams also had the PCs being ambushed after they got annoying - *it's a strong storytelling tactic*).



You think so?

I think ambushes are annoying and usually unfair to the players.

They're annoying (especially in 3e where pre-buffing is critical) because the PCs don't have time to prepare for them.

They're unfair because the PCs seldom have the opportunity to ambush the monsters, at least in published adventures. (Obviously, in homebrews, all bets are off; your PCs might be running around ambushing monsters all the time.)

I think ambushes are an adequate storytelling tactic because they convey to the players that hey, the bad guys see you as a serious threat. But there are so many other ways that could be conveyed that don't involve ambushes. Such as:

* bad guy attempts to bribe PCs to stop attacking him or to go elsewhere
* bad guy tries to get the PCs to work for him
* bad guy uses some other person/group as a cat's paw to fight against the PCs
* bad guy packs up his things and abandons his lair, leaving a taunting note for the PCs
* bad guy is so scared that he surrenders rather than face death (not every bad guy has to fight to the death or be an insane cultist)


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## Klaus (Oct 24, 2008)

Shazman said:


> I agree.  Red Hand of Doom was awesome with the exception of the final encounter.  It pretty much screamed grudge monster to me.



What I'd change from that encounter would be to move it through a teleport portal (teleportal?) down into the middle of Brindol. A fight that awesome is meant to be fought in front of a crowd.


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## Tikigod (Oct 25, 2008)

It just takes a little work to link the 3 H's together. 

Here is my rough sketch of tying them together: H1 as is (with an extra quest from Valthran to find the Minotaur Crystal in Shadowfell Keep)

H2: Salvanna Wrafton and the son of Lord Padraig are ambushed by Ninaran and the Bloodreaver hobbies and taken to Thunderspire. The Pcs follow. After defeating Paldemar, the Mages of Saruun reveal themselves to be agents working for an archmage. They present the PCs with the Minotaur Crystal. It is a key to the ruins of the Palace of Zaamdul. Zaamdul was a tiefling wizard-king of the minotaur empire. Civil war broke out and minotaur wizards captured the despot in a magical prison known as the Black Pyramid. 

The controlling device to the Black Pyramid is called the Inverted Pyramid and it is located in the Palace of Zaamdul. I will design a small dungeon for the Palace.

The PCs will be asked to take the Inverted Pyramid into the Black Pyramid, kill Zaamdul (Karavakos) and gain control of an extra-dimensional prison (for some future Big Evil Dude...possibly the thing that Kalarel was trying to summon through Shadowfell Keep.


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## Stormtower (Oct 25, 2008)

Shazman said:


> I agree.  Red Hand of Doom was awesome with the exception of the final encounter.  It pretty much screamed grudge monster to me.




Off-topic here, but: I fixed the issue with the final encounter (not Azarr Kul & co., but the battle afterward) by having Bahamut grant a divine battle blessing that essentially restored the PCs to fully rested status in preparation for the fight.  That negated the grudge monster factor and made it a great, memorable battle.

P1 looks great, but for me it will have to work long and hard to supplant RHoD as the best adventure for D&D across editions.  I agree with MerricB that it certainly has its share of strong mythic themes and memorable battles.  I look forward to running it sometime after the 1st of the year.


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## crash_beedo (Oct 25, 2008)

Yep, P1 is solid - just finished my first read-through this weekend.  (My group kicks off our H2 arc with their newly promoted 4th level characters tonight, so it'll be a while before we get to the P1...)

I was concerned a big dungeon crawl wouldn't feel 'Paragon' enough, but that's not the case at all... there's wilderness travel, big monsters, leading the defense of a town from attackers, and interplanar travel.  All in all I think it does a good job of creating a bridge into Paragon style play.  And it would be super easy to modify/build the hooks in such a way that the characters are recruited specifically because of their renown at reaching 11th level.

Considering the diverse audiences and ages for whom H1-H3 and P1 have needed to be designed, they've been remarkably good.


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## Felon (Oct 27, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> I'm curious as to why you'd think that
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, does he have a different bag of tricks each time? If not, I could see things getting monotonous.


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## jensun (Nov 1, 2008)

OK, I just finished reading through my copy of P1. 

Overall I am pretty impressed.  The location it is set in brings with it lots of possibilities.  I could easily see using the area as the basis of a longer game with the players gradually becoming aware through the Heroic tier of the growing threat of Skalmad.  

If I was to have any criticisms it would be these:

1. For an early level Paragon adventure the scale is probably too small.  At this point the players are well known in their lands, the town is too small scale.  By this level I would expect players either to be running their own Barony or to be significant powers within a larger Kingdom and not running errands for a distant Baron or small town Mayor.

2. I was impressed with the first two sections of the module, the dungeon of Skalmad and the attack on the town.  Both are very strong.  The third portion isn't.  You go to the Feywild and find a huge crumbling Formorian castle.  The setting is excellent, they even provide you with a big overview map of the castle.  They then proceed to use almost none of it.  

The actual fight with Vard happens in some pokey little cave underground.  The cave section is all of two areas long, there is no overview map and the mini maps of the two areas dont appear to be connected.  Very annoying.  For the last climactic encounter I would have also expected to see a poster map for the confrontation.  

3. I dont mind the process of fighting Skalmad/Vard, I think it nicely sets him up as a serious villain.  What I do wish had been done was to make them mechanically really different which didnt seem to be the case.


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## crash_beedo (Nov 1, 2008)

jensun said:


> OK, I just finished reading through my copy of P1.
> 
> Overall I am pretty impressed.  The location it is set in brings with it lots of possibilities.  I could easily see using the area as the basis of a longer game with the players gradually becoming aware through the Heroic tier of the growing threat of Skalmad.
> 
> ...




I think this will be a problem throughout the series... the modules are stand-alones, with limited hooks between them, and they're meant to plug into any campaign.  So the bar is pretty low for the hooks, they're super generic.  Any DM customizing the storyline for his campaign will be able to mod the hooks easily.

In my current campaign, the group just started Thunderspire H2.  In between H1 and H2, a few months passed, and the character stories advanced a little.  One of the characters (the big tough fighter in the group, Flint) was credited with most of the defense of Winterhaven by Lord Patrick (Lord Padraig from the module) and through the course of events, Flint has been granted the title of Lord Flint (a court lord) and knight itinerant in the service of Lord Markelhay of Fallcrest.  (Its worked out well because this particular player is never this type of 'center of attention' and the group is having some fun playing off it).

In between H2 and H3, I have an in interlude planned at the Fallcrest keep where various local barons will be there for a tournament and festival, including Baron Harkenwold and the Baron of Therund (introduced tangentially in the background for P1).  Flint will get a chance to learn of Etheran, the champion of Therund, and cross friendly swords with him in the tournament.

When we finally get to P1, the hook will be that the Baron of Therund reaches out directly to Lord Markelhay for the assistance of his renowned knight, Lord Flint; the champion of the Baron, Etheran, has fallen, and only the defenders of Nentir are close enough to save Moonstair from the rising threat.  (Our wizard is in close with the High Septarch of Fallcrest, so perhaps there will be some magical communication rather than slow messengers, adding to the urgency).

To me, that is now sufficiently "Paragon"; the characters have reached a degree of renown that they are being asked by neighboring realms to intervene in situations that have grown beyond the realms' ability to handle.  I'll need to make it clear they've made their local area somewhat safe and secure too.

FYI, my hook for H3 will also come out of that tournament festival alluded to above.  A recurring villain in the game will stage a "jail break" during the tournament, releasing Gharash and his bandits from the Fallcrest prisons.  (Gharash is one of the generic hooks).  These violent criminals exact some "revenge" on the townsfolk, and some of it will be personal to the player characters; when they learn of Gharash's escape, they'll take it on themselve to track his vile gang north into Winterbole Forest, and ultimately into the Pyramid of Shadows.  It'll tie in both a recurring villain and a personal stake in the events.

My point is, the provided hooks are usually fairly lame, but with minimal effort they can be tweaked into something serviceable for an ongoing game.


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## SPECTRE666 (Nov 1, 2008)

Klaus said:


> What I'd change from that encounter would be to move it through a teleport portal (teleportal?) down into the middle of Brindol. A fight that awesome is meant to be fought in front of a crowd.



-Stolen!



Stormtower said:


> Off-topic here, but: I fixed the issue with the final encounter (not Azarr Kul & co., but the battle afterward) by having Bahamut grant a divine battle blessing that essentially restored the PCs to fully rested status in preparation for the fight.  That negated the grudge monster factor and made it a great, memorable battle.



-Stolen!
-On topic, P1 looks awesome. 


*SPECTRE*


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## SlyFlourish (Nov 3, 2008)

"In my current campaign, the group just started Thunderspire H2. In between H1 and H2, a few months passed, and the character stories advanced a little."

I've had no trouble linking H1 and H2 together through a "Follow the slave" plot thread. The PCs see that villagers are rounded up and enslaved, some were sold to that nut, Karazel, others to the Duergar and the Gnolls for labor and sacrifices. Now two of the PCs have read a page from an old demonic book and a buzzing in their head points them to either the Pyramid of Shadows or madness!

I haven't figured out the thread to P1 yet but I have a few months to worry about it.


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## Jhaelen (Nov 9, 2008)

jensun said:


> The actual fight with Vard happens in some pokey little cave underground.  The cave section is all of two areas long, there is no overview map and the mini maps of the two areas dont appear to be connected.  Very annoying.  For the last climactic encounter I would have also expected to see a poster map for the confrontation.



Well, yeah, they forgot to include the overview map for the underground area. Here's the link to the map from the WotC gallery: Caverns Below Stone Cauldron
I just finished reading it and overall I like it even though I'm not a fan of extended dungeon crawls. The interlude back in Moonstair is clearly my favorite part.

While making my encounter/treasure analysis I noticed that there is one item I cannot find anywhere: In encounter W7 you find a _symbol of despair_. Does anyone know where I can find a description for this?

The magic item distribution is almost as in the DMG guidelines: instead of one L16 and one L15 item you get one of each L11 to L14; i.e. a net loss of 10k gp.
The second part is lacking regarding the gp amount though. In total the adventurers will find about 16 k gp less than they should.
The only thing to make up for that would be if they manage to get hold of  one or both of the artifacts:



Spoiler



Well, they probably won't be able to keep Sunwrath but at least they can use it until they return it to its rightful owners. It's possible to keep the Eye of Moran, though, if they succeeded in the skill challenge to find out the Stone Cauldron's history.


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## CapnZapp (Apr 14, 2009)

MerricB said:


> I like Red Hand of Doom, but the final act is fatally flawed. (And yes, I have run it). After a bunch of really thematic encounters, the final fortress is "let's fight one massive encounter after another" which didn't quite work for me.



I like RHOD very much (and am actually planning to use it in my 4E campaign - yes, I have Draconomicon), but yes, the ending needs to go away.

The BBEG is cool, but the adventure should really have used it/him as the ultimate war commander; as someone who actually gives a darn about his army. Note to authors: don't make it so your main plot turns out to be an insignificant diversion, and if you would have stayed at home not showing your hand, you would have been much better off in the end.


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## OchreJelly (Apr 14, 2009)

Since there's been some thread necromancy conducted here, I was wondering if anyone has played through this yet (not just read).  I'm getting ready to start this one, and am looking forward to running it.  At the risk of getting a little OT, has anyone run P2 as well?  I haven't even bought that one and was trying to see if it was worth it.


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## jensun (Apr 14, 2009)

I haven't run either of them yet but I am planning on stealing a bunch of stuff from P2 to use in my home game. 

P2 is an excellent module which I would highly recommend.


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## CapnZapp (Apr 14, 2009)

Joshua Randall said:


> I think ambushes are annoying and usually unfair to the players.
> 
> They're annoying (especially in 3e where pre-buffing is critical) because the PCs don't have time to prepare for them.






Joshua Randall said:


> I think ambushes are an adequate storytelling tactic because they convey to the players that hey, the bad guys see you as a serious threat. But there are so many other ways that could be conveyed that don't involve ambushes. Such as:
> 
> * bad guy attempts to bribe PCs to stop attacking him or to go elsewhere
> * bad guy tries to get the PCs to work for him
> ...



I think an ambush is the best way of conveying the fact the BBEG see you as a serious threat.

Those other methods are fine too, but not if overdone. Then the players get the feeling the BBEG (and by extension the DM) isn't really out to kill them.

Now, if you're playing 4E, you're in luck. Ambushes are much less unfair now than in the previous edition. 

Not only do PCs not need to pre-buff, they will manage even if without their stuff, and hopefully the ambush means they'll be fresh out of an extended rest. Also, there's none of the scry-teleport silliness, meaning that the ambush doesn't always come straight out of the blue like in 3E, and when it does, the party can usually recognize how they should have protected themselves better.

All good. And all factors encouraging you as the DM to really take off the gloves! Assuming the PCs get ambushed because they made a blunder earlier, they will 1) survive even a nasty ambush 2) thank you for it, because they see they deserved the hardship 3) lead to a better adventure 'cause now it's personal!


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 14, 2009)

Two thoughts:

1) I'm really getting ticked that our RHoD campaign (in which I am a player for a change) is on hiatus. I'm missing out on the best adventure of all time? Grr.

2) Sounds like I need to read this one. Who wrote it?


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## Endur (Apr 14, 2009)

I'll take a look at P1.

In my opinion, Red Hand of Doom was the best produced WOTC module.  There are many great WOTC modules, but RHoD had it all.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 14, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> I think an ambush is the best way of conveying the fact the BBEG see you as a serious threat.
> 
> Those other methods are fine too, but not if overdone. Then the players get the feeling the BBEG (and by extension the DM) isn't really out to kill them.
> 
> ...




Ambushes can be easily overdone as well. Especially since they always fail.


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## Jack99 (Apr 14, 2009)

I have used quite a decent bit of P1 for my home game, but the encounters/parts I stole worked great.

I do think that the P2 is even better.



Wulf Ratbane said:


> 2) Sounds like I need to read this one. Who wrote it?




Logan Bonner and Richard Baker if you mean P1, Chris Sims, Mike Mearls and Robert Schwalb if you mean P2.


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## vagabundo (Apr 14, 2009)

P1 just isnt doing it for me - saying that I've not read the whole thing. H2 sucked me in and I will be starting it next month some time.

Maybe I need to give it a proper read through.


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## C_M2008 (Apr 14, 2009)

P1 sucks.

Our group is playing through it(I'm not Dming for once) and it just seems to be monotonous monster hacking over and over again. Some of the encounters are well done and most use terrain very well, but that seems to be all their is. There was some RP at the start of the module when we tried to convince the champion in MoonStair to join us, but there has been very little. 

I think we're about half-way through the module so maybe it will improve (We "killed" skullmead and his jewel eye flared and he disappeared) and have fought 10 or so encounters so far, but its getting old fast. Their have been no exciting traps, no puzzles and no RP, nothing but combat scenarios so far, it's very very lame.

But I disliked H1 after reading it too, and have never run it either so maybe the WoTC modules just don't suit me.


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## Jack99 (Apr 14, 2009)

C_M2008 said:


> But I disliked H1 after reading it too, and have never run it either so maybe the WoTC modules just don't suit me.




I think a lot of people didn't like KotS too much, but still like KotT - And if you just killed Skalmad, things are about to become more interesting. Although a lot depends on the DM, obviously.

Cheers


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 14, 2009)

C_M2008 said:


> Our group is playing through it(I'm not Dming for once) and it just seems to be monotonous monster hacking over and over again. Some of the encounters are well done and most use terrain very well, but that seems to be all their is. There was some RP at the start of the module when we tried to convince the champion in MoonStair to join us, but there has been very little.
> 
> I think we're about half-way through the module so maybe it will improve (We "killed" skullmead and his jewel eye flared and he disappeared) and have fought 10 or so encounters so far, but its getting old fast. Their have been no exciting traps, no puzzles and no RP, nothing but combat scenarios so far, it's very very lame.



Is your DM one that typically like RP or is he a tactical combat kind of person?  That will weigh heavily in how well the adventure plays out.


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## C_M2008 (Apr 14, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Is your DM one that typically like RP or is he a tactical combat kind of person? That will weigh heavily in how well the adventure plays out.




He's generally fairly RP based, but usually runs his own creations when he does run. I think he may feel constrained by the module, to do exactly what it says.

That said he does fairly well from a tactical point of veiw and encourages stunts, so combat isn't boring, but fighting repeatedly gets old fast.


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## Wrathamon (Apr 15, 2009)

I just finished running this adventure and it went fairly well. The group had fun which is what really matters. It was a bit hack and slash heavy for my group but they still had good times.

They were a smaller group... 3 players and 1 NPC (see below) and they finished just shy of level 14.

I very rarely had to scale down an encounter. Couple I had to, some on the fly. They are pretty obvious which ones... but a few are tricky. You have to read the encounters carefully to see all the nuances to potential threats. 

The group was not very prepared for Trolls... You think the title would have clued them in, but once they retrained the trolls went down easy.

[sblock] If the group does not Fire or acid powers they will have a hard time... if they have nothing... I might say they wont be able to kill them without some DM intervention or fudging... because of the Troll Healing. If they have fire and acid at wills... the trolls will go down easy.

My group retrained but were bummed cause there isnt very many trolls near the end of the adventure and they felt like they retrained for nothing.
[/sblock]

There are a couple TPK potential encounters depending on when the Players encounter them... 

[sblock] my group almost died at the Roper as they tried to hide to rest for the day [/sblock]

I found several of the encounters to be very memorable

[sblock] Roper was brutal... the fight with the Fomorian was epic. I actually felt this was more like a final Boss round then Vard. The toughest fight was the Hags - they were fully rested and still had a tough time. [/sblock]

I agree that Skalmad could be repetitive... I just didnt use all of his bag of tricks in the first encounter. 

Bax issues... the Killer NPC
[sblock]by the way is superman - he might be too powerful to "add" to most parties, as he does way more damage then most PCs and is very hard to hit with superior defenses. If it wasnt for him they would have died... Bax ended up getting killed by Vard in the last battle.[/sblock]

My group did not go back to town... and because of that skipped a 3rd of the adventure and some very cool encounters that I will have to re-purpose.

[sblock] I was thinking of using those encounters as part of a fomorian cyclops invasion on Cedulion in the feywild... the group has to get back to the normal plane some how! I would have to make sure to scale the encounters properly since one formorian is formidable. Any thoughts on how to convert the troll invasion of moonstair to a formorian invasion of an eladrin city? [/sblock]

Overall, it was a fun adventure... not a lot of investigation ( the swamp journey could have lots depending on the DM, but as written for novice DMs they may just blow through it) my group still doesnt get skill challenges (and I am still trying to find the best method to run them), but I tried to play up the vastness of the swamp, and the great potential to get lost. The warren wasnt too big to become a grind (like KotSF). Unfortunately, the town encounters didnt happen, but the feywild mixed things up. I felt some of the encounters there were pretty weak compared to the others. It felt a bit disjointed. Couple interesting Puzzles that could make certain encounters "grind" if the party doesnt pick up on the clues. Btw I recommend the web enhancement encounters as they added a bit more backstory for me to play with. 

I'm looking forward to P2 and see how it goes.


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## darjr (Apr 15, 2009)

Normally I read the spoilers with abandon and unbridled glee.

Not this time. My youngest son is running the mod for me and his brother.

Not clicking the spoiler button will destroy me.

arg

It has been and continues to be great fun.


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## CapnZapp (Apr 15, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Ambushes can be easily overdone as well. Especially since they always fail.



Point. 

Though to make it, you had to conveniently ignore the context where I was responding to a poster who argued ambushes - as a storytelling tool - were bad and should be removed... 

In response to you, in case you're serious despite the smiley, I would like to say that in 4E you can use ambushes more often _precisely because_ they're more likely to fail!


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## CapnZapp (Apr 15, 2009)

I want to discuss Trolls and their abilities, but seeing this is a tangent to the topic we discuss here, I'm starting a new thread:
"http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/254446-trolls.html": http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/254446-trolls.html


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## Joshua Randall (Apr 15, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> I was responding to a poster who argued ambushes - as a storytelling tool - were bad and should be removed...



I didn't say they were bad. I said they were "adequate". And they are just that.

Like any tool, they can be overused. And familiarity breeds contempt.


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## GMforPowergamers (Apr 15, 2009)

hey guys,

   i think I am missing something here...this isn't in nether Vale...and I am unsure how to put it in the same world as h1-h3...any idea where to drop it?


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## Wrathamon (Apr 15, 2009)

it mentions where it is located... small blurb, easy to miss. 

on page 4



> If you are using the map of Nentir Vale in the Dungeon Master’s
> Guide, then Moonstair is located to the southwest.


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## GMforPowergamers (Apr 16, 2009)

Wrathamon said:


> it mentions where it is located... small blurb, easy to miss.
> 
> on page 4




thanks...I must have missed it


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## Wrathamon (Apr 16, 2009)

any thoughts on how I can re purpose the town attack in the feywild with formorian forces?


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## Rechan (Apr 20, 2009)

Wrathamon said:


> any thoughts on how I can re purpose the town attack in the feywild with formorian forces?



First thought that occurred: instead of the manticore rider spreading those seeds, use a bulette rider burrowing around under the ground.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 20, 2009)

Wrathamon said:


> [sblock] If the group does not Fire or acid powers they will have a hard time... if they have nothing... I might say they wont be able to kill them without some DM intervention or fudging... because of the Troll Healing. If they have fire and acid at wills... the trolls will go down easy.
> 
> My group retrained but were bummed cause there isnt very many trolls near the end of the adventure and they felt like they retrained for nothing.
> [/sblock]




I encourage my group to use their skills to determine what their characters know about specific creatures. As soon as they heard the word Troll in the lead-in they asked what their characters knew and were thus prepared to deal with them.

[sblock]In regards to having fire and acid powers, I don't think these are specifically necessary. Acid is harder to come by, but fire is readily available. Using the guidelines for non-standard actions a group should still be able to take out a downed troll with a torch. An attack with a torch can even stop them from regenerating for a round. This is why I encourage my players to think about what they are trying to accomplish first and then think if they have a power that fits. If not, it's time to improvise.[/sblock]


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## Cadfan (Apr 25, 2009)

Spoiler heavy details about an NPC that's added a bit to my game.  My own players SHOULD NOT READ.  That means you!

[SBLOCK]I'm having particularly good luck with the oni mage.  If you think about it, he's basically unkillable for a regular party of PCs.  He can fly, he can turn invisible at will, and he can transform himself into any humanoid as a disguise.  And he's got over 150 hit points, so as long as he's smart enough to escape as soon as he's bloodied, he's home free.

And he's already recurring, depending on how the first fight goes.  So its easy enough to have him recur again.  I'm going to have him show up in town, disguised as other NPCs, and fomenting trouble.  Hopefully I'll get my players really paranoid.[/SBLOCK]


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## C_M2008 (Apr 29, 2009)

So played another session. Much improved but that had little to do with the actual adventure I think and more with the DM.

We finished freeing a ghost who had been bound by skullmad and he led us along a river and up a waterfall to the throne room. Using the warlock as an emissary (while I got into position) My fighter challenged skullmad to single combat for leadership of the Trolls. He accepted and we dueled, my flaming sword ensuring he could not heal his grevious wounds. He pummelled me pretty savagely and if I wasn't MC warlord I probably would have lost (I spent 6 surges plus had the level 2 regen utility going most of the fight). In the end he opened a portal and turned to flee after knocking me prone. Somehow from my back I was able to strike him (thanks wisdom bonus/combat superiority) and cut him down as he turned to flee in cowardice. The Jewel in his eye flared, his body crumbled to ash (the jewel folding in on itself) and he screamed something along the lines of "Fools what have you done, the old king will........"


So as new king I dusted myself off and issued an order to have the assault on Moonstair recinded and the warlock and some trolls went off to make it so, along with some orders from an "officer". The drow in the throne room explained someof what was going on and how there are forces being marshalled on the otherside of the portal (presumably by this old king was how I infered it) which is still open. I asked the drow to establish a supply line and to bring it supplies to the trollhaunt; we plan to make it an actually community, and try and integrate the trolls into the surroundings.

Meanwhile the warlock met a worg commander who wasn't interested in what he had to say, but was able to take him and his puppies down with the help of the troll flunkies.

We all agreed it was the best session of the adventure by far. Although we've clearly taken it way off the train tracks. But at least we're all excited to play it again now.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 29, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Spoiler heavy details about an NPC that's added a bit to my game.  My own players SHOULD NOT READ.  That means you!
> 
> [SBLOCK]I'm having particularly good luck with the oni mage.  If you think about it, he's basically unkillable for a regular party of PCs.  He can fly, he can turn invisible at will, and he can transform himself into any humanoid as a disguise.  And he's got over 150 hit points, so as long as he's smart enough to escape as soon as he's bloodied, he's home free.
> 
> And he's already recurring, depending on how the first fight goes.  So its easy enough to have him recur again.  I'm going to have him show up in town, disguised as other NPCs, and fomenting trouble.  Hopefully I'll get my players really paranoid.[/SBLOCK]




LOL!

[SBLOCK]My group thinks that the Troll King is the Oni Mage. And one PC in particular has been making the NPCs in Moonstair uncomfortable by scrutinizing them trying to determine if they are an oni in disguise.[/SBLOCK]


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 30, 2009)

C_M2008 said:


> (snip) We all agreed it was the best session of the adventure by far. Although we've clearly taken it way off the train tracks. But at least we're all excited to play it again now.




Excellent. That sounds like a great session and a lot of fun.


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## Sanzuo (Apr 30, 2009)

We're playing through this adventure right now.  Although I'm having fun, it doesn't seem particularly memorable.  This adventure seems to be a straightforward series of combat encounters and it might just be our DM but there doesn't seem to be much of a hook other than "there's trolls, go kill them."


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## OchreJelly (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm about to run this adventure, but I may need some help with something.  I'm going to allow the group to travel there via linked portal ritual (I'm adding one to Moonstair).  This presents some interesting problems from an adventure / story standpoint.
- they would bypass the "travel to" introductory encounter.  Any thoughts on how to rewrite this?
- in all likeliness the PCs would use this as a method of fast-travel back, rather than trudge through the swamp.  This could lead to them using it for the raid encounter, which may mess up the order of events.  
- from a story perspective, how would I explain why the baron of the neighboring kingdom wouldn't send soldiers to help defend the town via a linked portal?


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 30, 2009)

OchreJelly said:


> I'm about to run this adventure, but I may need some help with something.  I'm going to allow the group to travel there via linked portal ritual (I'm adding one to Moonstair).  This presents some interesting problems from an adventure / story standpoint.
> - they would bypass the "travel to" introductory encounter.  Any thoughts on how to rewrite this?
> - in all likeliness the PCs would use this as a method of fast-travel back, rather than trudge through the swamp.  This could lead to them using it for the raid encounter, which may mess up the order of events.
> - from a story perspective, how would I explain why the baron of the neighboring kingdom wouldn't send soldiers to help defend the town via a linked portal?




Quick answer to #2 and #3 is to say the portal is only active on a full moon (basically once a month). 

The 'introductory encounter' could then be an encounter with a bloke in a inn who narrowly escaped the trolls on the road - or, more interestingly, the oni mage polymorphed into the form of the slain messenger, who arrives with the message to spy out the strength of potential opposition in the town in the light of an impending invasion


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## MeepoTheMighty (May 2, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Spoiler heavy details about an NPC that's added a bit to my game.  My own players SHOULD NOT READ.  That means you!
> 
> [SBLOCK]I'm having particularly good luck with the oni mage.  If you think about it, he's basically unkillable for a regular party of PCs.  He can fly, he can turn invisible at will, and he can transform himself into any humanoid as a disguise.  And he's got over 150 hit points, so as long as he's smart enough to escape as soon as he's bloodied, he's home free.
> 
> And he's already recurring, depending on how the first fight goes.  So its easy enough to have him recur again.  I'm going to have him show up in town, disguised as other NPCs, and fomenting trouble.  Hopefully I'll get my players really paranoid.[/SBLOCK]




[SBLOCK]The players in my group managed to hit the oni with an immobilize effect which he couldn't for the life of him manage to save against.  I managed to hold them off for a few rounds through invisibility and total defense, but they still ended up killing him  [/sblock]


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## SlyFlourish (May 3, 2009)

*spoilers ahead*

I'm going to assume anyone reading this far expects spoilers so I'm not going to hide it.

I used the Oni Mage as the main annoyance for the party. I named him Kimsul and gave him a background where he hated Eladrin for wiping out his people hundreds of years ago. I converted him to higher level Oni a few times including a 14th Oni Spiritmaster in the second to final battle.

I had six players so I added him to the Fomorean battle near the end. They enjoyed killing him.

I see there's an Oni in Demon Queen's Enclave - I might make it him again. I love reoccurring NPCs.

Overall my group enjoyed the module. Their favorite part was the defense of Moonstair.

I just asked my wife which of the four she's like the best and worst. She put Trollhaunt at the bottom. Still, we enjoyed all of them.


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