# Advice: Making a crossbow build work



## Rechan (Jul 2, 2009)

So, I want to play a Tiefling Bard using the Prescient build.

However, the state of crossbows leave me a little sour. Crossbows have no mechanic advantage to bows; bows have longer range, load free, and an extra die of damage. Crossbows have a lower die and a load minor. 

If I want to offset any of this (the lower damage die, the load minor), it'd coast a feat. Something rather precious at level 1. 

Handcrossbows are possible, but the only feats to modify them require a pre-requisit of a Rogue or Drow. I think that I'd be fairly weak going for a d6 weapon with the only tradeoff being the free load. 

Even more annoying, there's only one at-will that uses a ranged weapon. So if I'm going to get any other at-will, I need an implement or a weapon. But, the Crossbow (or bow) is a two handed weapon, which means I have to waste actions pulling out my implement or weapon just to use my other at-will. Which means that, if I don't want to waste actions, that's _another_ feat I need. 

How do I make this work?


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## IanB (Jul 2, 2009)

Bards aren't set up particularly well to use crossbows. On top of everything else you mention, the euphonic bow paragon path you could use to get around your implement problem doesn't work with crossbows.

I don't really see a good way to do a crossbow user without heavy feat investment; you could use a repeating crossbow to get around some of the loading issues, but I think I'd rather just blow the feats on superior crossbow proficiency and speed loader. Go for speed loader first, then upgrade to the superior crossbow at level 2 would be my best guess.

Or just use a bow...

Alternately I think the artificer is set up to use crossbows a little better than bards, and they have multiple ranged weapon at-wills to pick from, so that might be a better choice as a crossbow-using arcane leader, assuming there's not some specific reason you're going for a bard.


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## Rechan (Jul 2, 2009)

IanB said:


> assuming there's not some specific reason you're going for a bard.



Namely because artificer isn't available. I'd prefer the artificer, but oh well.

So I thought that the Prescient Bard makes a nice "John Wayne/Clint Eastwood" type; the leadership comes from his badass presence, and all he needs is one good shot to change things.

That, and I really, really like the first level daily: Arrow of Warning.

Aside from Free Loader and the superior weapon feats... what feats exist for a crossbow user, anyways?


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## WalterKovacs (Jul 2, 2009)

In general, when you compare a military weapon to a simple weapon, the military weapon will be strictly better. 

You can get around the minor loading issue with a repeating crossbow (it fires 10 shots before it needs reloading, although it then requires a standard for a reload). That requires no feats to be able to use it.

The Superior Crossbow does the same damage and has the same range as a longbow, but has a +3 proficiency [but still is a load minor]. You can solve the load minor with a magic property [although that prohibits other magical properties].

As for the implement/melee issue, outside of quick draw (or better yet, getting the disembodied hand familiar) you have a few options in terms of magic items. Dragon magazine 368 has the Battle Harness, an armor that gives you free action drawing of items. There are also scabbards that let you draw the weapon out of them as a free action. At paragon tier, you can take euphonic bow to make your bow into an implement (this doesn't work for crossbows, but an accomadating DM will probably allow it, since generally crossbows are worse than a bow).

Ultimatley ... outside of the superior crossbow ... crossbows are simple weapons and therefore they will be worse than bows which are military weapons. Artificers are stuck with crossbows unless (a) it's an elf or (b) they spend a feat. Bards have the option of a real bow, so choosing a crossbow is going to be an inferior option.


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## WalterKovacs (Jul 2, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Aside from Free Loader and the superior weapon feats... what feats exist for a crossbow user, anyways?




Level 11 and Con 15 gives you steady shooter, that gives you +3 damage if you haven't moved since the end of your last turn (so, basically, shoot before you move for a damage increase). This is compared to the 11th level and Wis 15 feat for bow users that requires the person you attacking having no creatures with 3 squares of it and gives the same +3 to damage. [The crossbow feat is thus easier to pull off reliably]. Epic tier has bow mastery which gives the 19-20 crit range for bows and crossbows.

There is also the rogue and drow feats relating to the hand crossbow. The rogue one let's you reload it one handed, which would let you wield a crossbow in one hand and a melee weapon or implement in the other (or both in the case of a songblade).

I'm running a prescient bard (albeit with a bow). Having one of my at-wills be 'wasted' [by requiring me to pull an implement to keep up the damage/to-hit numbers] isn't too bad.

Remember that you don't actually need an implement to cast an implement power, and at low levels you are really only missing out on a +1 to hit and damage (maybe an extra +1 to hit since you'd miss out on an expertise feat bonus). At later levels, you'd have taken more feats and found more magical items, both of which can help with the problems.


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## Rechan (Jul 2, 2009)

I'll go the simplest route:

Superior Crossbow, suck up the minor action loading, and hope I get a swiftshot weapon.


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## bganon (Jul 2, 2009)

You probably already realized this, but at 1st level you don't really need a wand for implement powers anyway.  So you can wait until +1 implements become available to decide if you really want to deal with weapon/implement switching or focus on getting the most out of the crossbow.

I think cherrypicking some Rogue feats will be worth it.  IMO, the real reason crossbows are mechanically inferior is because you can sneak attack with them.  Getting +2d6 1/encounter is worth a feat, plus this opens up other options.  It sounds like your build probably won't have the Dex to make power-swapping worthwhile, but you're set up nicely for Cunning Ambusher.

Personally, I'd probably try hand crossbow+implement, and take Sneak of Shadows, Two-Fisted Shooter, and Cunning Ambusher as my first three feats.  That results in a character without big damage dice, but who can easily wand/crossbow dual wield and once in a while has a good chance of really piling on the hurt.

But superior crossbow's a good choice too, if you're committed to ranged weapon powers.  Past level 7 you probably won't miss having two at-wills much anyway.  I'd still be sorely tempted by Sneak of Shadows, though.


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## Eric Finley (Jul 2, 2009)

Incidentally, if you're giving up other properties to get a Swiftshot weapon, you should talk to your DM about the enchanted arrows/bolts in the AV2 preview (also available in the character builder, under Ammunition).  Basically the rule is that you can only use the enhancement bonus from the crossbow _or_ the bolts... but the bolts will give you access to various other special effects as well.


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## Rechan (Jul 2, 2009)

bganon said:


> Personally, I'd probably try hand crossbow+implement, and take Sneak of Shadows, Two-Fisted Shooter, and Cunning Ambusher as my first three feats.  That results in a character without big damage dice, but who can easily wand/crossbow dual wield and once in a while has a good chance of really piling on the hurt.



Unfortunately, unless I invest heavily in other feats and rearrange my stats, the feats aren't useful to me.

Sneak in Shadows is a reasonable feat - but the challenge is getting Combat Advantage at ranged. My party members are a Barb, a Fighter, and a Wizard - not much opportunity to really gain CA; no daze powers. Prone enemies are harder to hit at ranged. If I wanted to spend ANOTHER feat, I could get Distant Advantage, but again, another feat just so I can use Sneak in Shadows, and that requires the two guys to flank.

Cunning Ambusher is out. My int sucks; Prescient bard needs a good wisdom. I dropped a 16 in Cha (resulting in an 18 for a Tiefling) and a 14 in Wisdom. This left me with but a few points to spread around, so I gave myself a decent Con and a 13 in Dex. I put an 8 in Int (to get bumped up to 10). 

Two-Fisted Shooter is a nice feat - if you have a nice dex. I do not. So, that's out unless I want to spend a feat (Melee Training). Thus, the only thing I gain with Two Fisted is being able to use an off hand handcrossbow and load it one handed.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 3, 2009)

Here's my question...what do you want out of crossbow?

1) Is it mainly a visual/descriptive thing? If that's true, then say its a crossbow, but treat it like a bow.

2) Is it that you want a ranged weapon that's mechanically different from a bow? In that case you might decrease its damage but up its accuracy or something of that note.


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## bganon (Jul 3, 2009)

Rechan, I see your points now (I didn't realize you dumped Int) but let me add a note from my own experience:

I've played an archer ranger with Sneak of Shadows (using a houserule "rogue" bow).  Most of the time, she gets CA (and thus sneak attack damage) from flanking -herself- and firing at point blank range.  Since it's only a 1/enc thing anyway, this works out better than I would have thought, and no extra feats are necessary (though Defensive Mobility is handy sometimes).  It seems like this might work for your bard, too, since it sounds like you'll have decent Con and you're probably going to want to be close enough to the front line to use your buffing powers anyway.

For your build, yeah, it looks like Cunning Ambusher is right out... but I think Two-Fisted Shooter might still be nice for a W+I build even without the extra attack.  Crits don't happen that often anyway unless you're highly optimized, so it's not like you'd be missing out much with a low Dex.


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## 77IM (Jul 3, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I'll go the simplest route:
> 
> Superior Crossbow, suck up the minor action loading, and hope I get a swiftshot weapon.




That's what I would do.  Superior CB is not a shabby weapon by any stretch.  If the minor-action-to-reload becomes annoying you can pick up the Speed Loader feat.  (This may actually be relevant since an important bard class feature is a minor action).

 -- 77IM


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## Rechan (Jul 3, 2009)

bganon said:


> Rechan, I see your points now (I didn't realize you dumped Int) but let me add a note from my own experience:



Hmm. You make a good point. 

Although given feats, that option likely won't be open to me until 2nd or 4th level. It's a shame we aren't starting higher - wielding a melee weapon in one hand and a crossbow in the other could be fairly cool - it would let one pick up Guiding Strike, which I fancy.

But, you still have to deal with the d6 instead of d8 or d10.


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## Dreadite (Jul 4, 2009)

The reason Crossbow's damage expression is somewhat lower is that you can (as far as I am aware) use it with a Light Shield (Crossbow being one handed, and a Light Shield allows you to use the hand for other tasks like reloading).

A very fun crossbow build for Paragon is Hospitaler Paladin multiclass Bard.  It has a very strange feel (ranged Mark for healing on artillery bosses, trivializing Beholders, etc), but it does have not so fantastic damage.  Your mileage may vary, but my players have had fun with it for Delve Nights and such.


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## Rechan (Jul 4, 2009)

Dreadite said:


> The reason Crossbow's damage expression is somewhat lower is that you can (as far as I am aware) use it with a Light Shield (Crossbow being one handed, and a Light Shield allows you to use the hand for other tasks like reloading).



Really? I didn't know that! That's... intriguing.


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## boolean (Jul 4, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Really? I didn't know that! That's... intriguing.




Only Hand Crossbows are one-handed. Other crossbows, whether Repeating, Superior, or just plain regular, are all Two-Handed weapons.

There is one nice combo with a bard and a Hand Crossbow.
Take Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Shield), and get one with one of the Songblade enchantents. Counts as a melee weapon for your melee powers, and an implement for your implement powers, while still (IIRC) giving you a free (enough) hand to reload your crossbow.

(It works even better with a Drow Bard of course, having access to Ruthless Hunter (to increase damage to d8's) and Drow Fighting Style (giving the ability to make crossbow attacks without OAs when wielding a crossbow and a light blade.)


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