# Complete Champion - Domain Access class feature for Sorcerer



## Thanee (Nov 5, 2008)

How does this work exactly?

You lose one 1st and one 2nd level spell known at 5th level and all levels thereafter (i.e. maximum of 4 spells known each eventually). Ok.

And then you...

a) ... get one extra slot (the domain spell slot) for each spell level you can cast, which can only be used to cast domain spells (just like a Cleric)?

b) ... can use one of your existing spell slots for each spell level you can cast to cast a domain spell (more like the Arcane Disciple feat)?



Also, can you cast the same domain spell twice (i.e. use 1st-level and 2nd-level spell slot to cast the 1st-level domain spell twice) or more (reducing your uses for the day from higher spell levels accordingly)?

Bye
Thanee


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## Runestar (Nov 5, 2008)

(b).

Let's use an example to illustrate, since I realize that my own attempt at verbalizing my reply comes across as extremely awkward.

Say my domain sorc chooses to take the war domain.

From 5th lv onwards, he will forever know 1 fewer 1st lv and 1 fewer 2nd lv spell compared to his peers of the same level.

He may cast the war domain spells using his own spell slots, but each such spell may only be cast 1/day max.

Thus, he can cast divine power (a war domain4 spell) once each day, using a regular 4th lv slot in the process. You cannot opt to cast it more than once each day.

Clear enough?


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## Thanee (Nov 5, 2008)

Thanks! 



Runestar said:


> ...but each such spell may only be cast 1/day max.




Are you sure about this? Because I don't really see anything that disallows, for example, for a 10th-level Sorcerer to cast one 1st-level, another 1st-level, one 3rd-level, one 4th-level and one 5th-level domain spell in one day (five total). But casting five 5th-level domain spells in one day would not work.

In other words, shouldn't you be able to cast a domain spell of that level (or lower!) for each spell level you possess?

Bye
Thanee


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## Runestar (Nov 6, 2008)

> In addition, you can cast one domain spell of each spell level available to you per day from that domain.




I admit the wording is a little vague. I took that to mean it worked just like arcane disciple. At least that was my initial take.

However, now that I think about it, the cleric is allowed to fill his higher lv domain slots with lower lv domain spells (which can be useful if the higher lv domain spells don't really catch your fancy, or you want to metamagick a lower lv domain spell). So I feel it would not be unreasonable to rule it the way you did.

How accurate it would be in RAW terms, I have no idea though.


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## Jack Simth (Nov 6, 2008)

Let's see....


			
				Complete Champion said:
			
		

> Your depth of belieft allows you to channel divine power the way a cleric does.  By doing so, you gain access to a single cleric domain.
> Level: 5th
> Replaces: To gain this benefit, you do not learn a new 1st-level sorcerer spell and a new 2nd-level sorcerer spell at 5th level.  From now on, you know one less sorcerer spell that you can cast at each subsequent level (not counting the domain spells from this alternative class feature).
> Benefit: Chose one cleric domain. If you worship a specific deity, the domain you choose must be one to which your deity grants access. You gain the granted power of the chosen domain. In addition, you can cast one domain spell of each spell level available to you per day from that domain.



By my reading, this is rather ouchie.  You pick up the Domain power (which can be handy, especially if you pick up something like Pride, but mostly isn't worth spells known), lose a spell known at every spell level you know, permanently and "learn" a static set of Domain spells that you can only cast once per day each.

That is, a Sorcerer-10's normal compliment of spells known looks like:
9/5/4/3/2/1
If you use this alternate class feature, at 10th, your Sorcerer spells known look like:
9/4+1/3+1/2+1/1+1/0+1
Where the +1 is the domain spell, that you can cast only a single time per day, regardless of how many actual spell slots you have.

Edit: Hmm... the Divine Companion feature looks promising, though - the Sorcerer-10 can lose, say, two 1st, two 2nd, and one 4th level spell slots to have a nice +10 Deflection/Resistance bonus for ten rounds....


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## Runestar (Nov 6, 2008)

> By my reading, this is rather ouchie. You pick up the Domain power (which can be handy, especially if you pick up something like Pride, but mostly isn't worth spells known), lose a spell known at every spell level you know, permanently and "learn" a static set of Domain spells that you can only cast once per day each.




No, you misread the entry.

It essentially says that you only know 1 fewer 1st lv and 2nd lv spell compared to other sorcs of the same lv as you, but did not take the domain power. At 6th lv, you still get your 1st 3rd lv spell known. At lv20, your sorc will still know 3 9th lv spells.


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## Jack Simth (Nov 6, 2008)

Runestar said:


> No, you misread the entry.
> 
> It essentially says that you only know 1 fewer 1st lv and 2nd lv spell compared to other sorcs of the same lv as you, but did not take the domain power. At 6th lv, you still get your 1st 3rd lv spell known. At lv20, your sorc will still know 3 9th lv spells.



"From now on, you know one less sorcerer spell that you can cast at each subsequent level"
I'm curious - what chain of logic are you using that indicates that does not reduce your Sorcerer spells known at each subsequent spell level?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 6, 2008)

As far as losing a spell known of each level, I'd rule it to work like the Stalwart Sorcerer variant in CMage -- the lost spell known doesn't occur until a level you would learn your *second* spell known for that level.  Otherwise...you reach level 6 and can cast 3 +bonus(?) spells per day of level 3, but don't actually know any.  Which is just really silly.

I think the intent of the rule vindicates this -- you gain it at 5th level, specifically the point you're gaining your second spell known of level 2, the highest level you can currently cast.


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## Thanee (Nov 6, 2008)

Jack Simth said:


> "From now on, you know one less sorcerer spell that you can cast at each subsequent level"
> I'm curious - what chain of logic are you using that indicates that does not reduce your Sorcerer spells known at each subsequent spell level?




"Level", not "spell level". It refers to the class level, IMHO, and makes sure you do not "regain" the two spells you give up on the next level up, since the first sentence only refers to the 5th class level. Basically you lower the spells known for 1st and 2nd spell level for the 5th class level and each subsequent class level.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. The Divine Companion looks extremely powerful to me... [caster level] on AC and Saves (overlapping other bonuses, but still) for [caster level] rounds?


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## Runestar (Nov 6, 2008)

It also seems rather limiting if you really lost 1 spell known/level. Essentially, you are trading out those spells for the spells from a chosen domain (and those spells come with the domain - you can't cherry pick what spells you want, so it is unlikely all the spells you get will be useful or what you want). And on top of that, you can still cast each of them only 1/day (unlike normal sorc spells, which can be cast as often as you have slots remaining). 

Domain power is cool to have, but typically just the equivalent of an extra feat (power-wise). 

I find my reading much more sane at any rate.



> "Level", not "spell level". It refers to the class level, IMHO, and makes sure you do not "regain" the two spells you give up on the next level up, since the first sentence only refers to the 5th class level. Basically you lower the spells known for 1st and 2nd spell level for the 5th class level and each subsequent class level.




Yeah, that too...


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## Shin Okada (Nov 6, 2008)

Thanee said:


> "Level", not "spell level". It refers to the class level, IMHO, and makes sure you do not "regain" the two spells you give up on the next level up, since the first sentence only refers to the 5th class level. Basically you lower the spells known for 1st and 2nd spell level for the 5th class level and each subsequent class level.




But if you read it as "class level" instead of "spell level", now that may cause even much serious damage to a single-classed sorcerer.

Each time you level up, you learn 1 or more new spells. Now that number decreases by 1. So, if you take that class feature at 5th-level, you will learn 17 less spells in total by level 20, comparing to normal Sorcerer.

On the other hand, you can easily avoid most of the disadvantages from this alternative class feature by multi-classing into appropriate prestige classes. Because you can easily avoid gaining additional sorcerer class level again.

So I vote for "1 less spells known per spell level".


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## Shin Okada (Nov 6, 2008)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Otherwise...you reach level 6 and can cast 3 +bonus(?) spells per day of level 3, but don't actually know any.  Which is just really silly.




Well, that is not so silly IMHO. Because Sorcerers can use higher level slots for casting lower level spells. Or better, for casting metamagic versions of lower level spells. You can use that 3rd level slots to cast, say, Empowered Magic Missile or Heightened Glitterdust.


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## Thanee (Nov 6, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> But if you read it as "class level" instead of "spell level", now that may cause even much serious damage to a single-classed sorcerer.
> 
> Each time you level up, you learn 1 or more new spells. Now that number decreases by 1. So, if you take that class feature at 5th-level, you will learn 17 less spells in total by level 20, comparing to normal Sorcerer.




 No, no, no.

You look at the table of spells known at each level and reduce 1st and 2nd level spells known by one.

It's NOT cumulative, of course. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Nov 6, 2008)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> As far as losing a spell known of each level, I'd rule it to work like the Stalwart Sorcerer variant in CMage -- the lost spell known doesn't occur until a level you would learn your *second* spell known for that level.  Otherwise...you reach level 6 and can cast 3 +bonus(?) spells per day of level 3, but don't actually know any.  Which is just really silly.




That problem doesn't even exist, if you read it as learning one less 1st and 2nd level spell known only.

Bye
Thanee


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## Shin Okada (Nov 6, 2008)

Thanee said:


> It's NOT cumulative, of course.




Why not?

Also, If that text is saying that only the initial spells known loss at Sor 5 is carried over, it should be "two" instead of "one". Because they are one 1st-level spell and one 2nd-level spell.

I still think one less spells known per spell level is the only reasonable interpretation.


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## Thanee (Nov 6, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> Why not?




Because that makes no sense. 



> Also, If that text is saying that only the initial spells known loss at Sor 5 is carried over, it should be "two" instead of "one". Because they are one 1st-level spell and one 2nd-level spell.
> 
> I still think one less spells known per spell level is the only reasonable interpretation.




Quite possible, but I don't think that's what is meant there (it would be really bad, if it was).

Bye
Thanee


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## Runestar (Nov 6, 2008)

Thanee's explanation makes perfect sense when you recall that the sorc spells known progression table simply shows the total number of spells a sorc knows at any particular level, rather than showing the number of new spells he knows whenever he gains a level.

Thus, the provision in complete champion is to prevent the sorc5 from effectively regaining all his lost spells known when he reaches 6th lv. Else, you get funny situations like a sorc5 knowing just 3 1st lv and 1 2nd lv spell, and suddenly knowing 4 1st lv and 2 2nd lv spells at 6th lv, when it should still be 3 1st lv and 1 2nd lv spell.


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