# Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker Trailer



## Morrus (Apr 12, 2019)

Trailer just dropped. Here it is!

[video=youtube;eKR1lOj_Gs4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKR1lOj_Gs4&fbclid=IwAR2QZ76nU9-Kmayf_uPfHgTxFE2HgTNxuYXnhQeCmryWUD6D4R4G9AdOyqU[/video]


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## Morrus (Apr 12, 2019)

Creepy Palpatine laugh at the end....

Loved seeing Lando and Chewie in the Falcon.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 12, 2019)

So is Rey going to fight Kylo again, and win again? 
Is the Emperor not quite dead yet?
And I thought it was going to be the end of the Skywalker Saga. Not sure "Rise of the Skywalker" sounds like an end?


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## Morrus (Apr 12, 2019)

The end of this story. Not the end of the Skywalkers. 

Maybe Luke is rising from the dead!


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## Istbor (Apr 12, 2019)

I love that title to the movie. 

I honestly can't wait to see what they do with this.


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## jonesy (Apr 12, 2019)

"Every generation has a legend"? I'm pretty sure they used that for The Phantom Menace trailer all those years ago.

Let me  guess, the emperor is actually Anakin's father. The story was always his story. The emperor is the one who brings balance to the force? I might be only half joking here.


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## Mercurius (Apr 12, 2019)

Word on the street is that the villain is Palpatine's head perpetually cackling wearing Vader's helmet, with Darth Maul's torso and double light saber and Snoke's gold costume and General Grievous's cyber-legs.


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## jonesy (Apr 12, 2019)

[video=youtube_share;xD4WWbbOEm8]https://youtu.be/xD4WWbbOEm8?t=125[/video]

Ian McDiarmid appeared in person at the trailer announcement. Starts at 2 minutes 10 seconds.


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## MarkB (Apr 12, 2019)

So, is that Yavin IV that has a big piece of Death Star wreckage on it, or Endor?


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## Morrus (Apr 12, 2019)

MarkB said:


> So, is that Yavin IV that has a big piece of Death Star wreckage on it, or Endor?




Is that what that is? I thought it was, but wasn’t sure.

I’d say Endor if so. It was in orbit around Endor, merely approaching Yavin.


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## MarkB (Apr 13, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Is that what that is? I thought it was, but wasn’t sure.



It certainly looks like it, though given how thoroughly they both exploded, I'm surprised such a large chunk could still be intact.



> I’d say Endor if so. It was in orbit around Endor, merely approaching Yavin.




Oh well, so much for No Endor Holocaust, then.


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## Morrus (Apr 13, 2019)

MarkB said:


> Oh well, so much for No Endor Holocaust, then.




Were you looking for science in Star Wars? Seems a curious starting point!


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## MarkB (Apr 13, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Were you looking for science in Star Wars? Seems a curious starting point!




No, I'm just amused that they've suddenly provided corroboration for an old fan theory that had previously been thoroughly debunked / handwaved away.


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 13, 2019)

Looks rad.


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## Aeson (Apr 13, 2019)

I deny your claims of a "holocaust" caused by Imperial hands, or the alleged destruction of Imperial property. No Endorian lifeforms were harmed. Rebel agitators attempted to disrupt Imperial operations on the forest moon of Endor. Their actions failed due to the bravery, and overwhelming might of the 501st legion.


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## Legatus Legionis (Apr 13, 2019)

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## Morrus (Apr 13, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> One of the rumours from Mike Zero is that for a period of time, Luke Skywalker becomes more than just a force ghost, but of flesh...
> 
> Hince the "Rise of Skywalker"!




Like what I said up there. Dunno who Mike Zero is, but pretty much everybody has suggested that on account of it being an obvious interpretation.


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## Legatus Legionis (Apr 13, 2019)

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## Morrus (Apr 13, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> He has a large youtube channel, where he talks Star Wars endlessly.




Did he credit me with the theory?


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## billd91 (Apr 13, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> So is Rey going to fight Kylo again, and win again?




Well, she's got to do something to even up the score. He's still one up on her by my count.


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## Tonguez (Apr 13, 2019)

nobody ever dies in the Disney universe


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## Maxperson (Apr 13, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> nobody ever dies in the Disney universe




Then where has Bambi's mother been all these years?


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 13, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> nobody ever dies in the Disney universe




Well that’s just objectively untrue


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## Zardnaar (Apr 13, 2019)

jonesy said:


> "Every generation has a legend"? I'm pretty sure they used that for The Phantom Menace trailer all those years ago.
> 
> Let me  guess, the emperor is actually Anakin's father. The story was always his story. The emperor is the one who brings balance to the force? I might be only half joking here.




Comic confirmed that Palps is Vader's father of sorts via force manipulation.

 Wonder if they will rehash Dark Empire. The Eclipse exists in the new canon so Palpatine in a clone body or dark side spirit?

 One movie they can't really develop a new villain so they recycled Palpatine. Kinda had to since Darth Emo is ineffective.


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## Blue (Apr 13, 2019)

Loved the Lando sighting.  I had heard that each of the movies were also going to be wrapping up an arc of a character from the original trilogy - Han, Luke, then Leia.  (That's what I think the whole training of Poe to be more than a hot shot pilot was in TLJ.)  Carrie Fisher's untimely and saddening death may have caused a rejiggering of that, and having Lando show up as their legacy character may help complete that.

Oh, and enjoy this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFqtwlTXTPY&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2tK0Q2VBlbAs19Vtkwma5bbKKL1YSEadomicH66JKSbRDpwvEtTaJKdjI


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## Kaodi (Apr 13, 2019)

I kind of wonder if Palpatine created Anakin to act as some sort of vessel in case he died, and that is also part of why he turned him into Vader, because he needs a dark side vessel. That potential is passed on through the Skywalker line, so Snoke corrupts Ben Solo into Kylo Ren to be a new vessel for Palpatine. But the Force, being a things of its own, has a play as well: the spirit of Anakin Skywalker is given a vessel/champion too in the form of Rey. That explains how she is both a nobody and yet intimately connected to the lightsaber: she is a vessel though not a true reincarnation. The final battle will have two aspects, just like the prequel trilogy, but it will be partly metaphysical: Rey vs Ren, and Skywalker vs Palpatine. In this way Rey becomes "the Skywalker" and Ren "the Emperor/Sith" in new version of the dichotomy between the Daughter and the Son. Or something like that.


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## hawkeyefan (Apr 13, 2019)

I like the trailer a lot! 

My guess is that Rey will take the name Skywalker in honor of Luke, but we’ll see. I liked Last Jedi a lot, and I liked the idea of Rey having no pre-existing connection to the mythos. 

But I also have no problem with them revealing that there is a connection, as long as they have an interesting way to do that. The emperor laughing at the end as they look on the ruins of the Death Star makes it seem like he’s been behind all of it...and if that’s the case, then Rey having some kind of connection would make sense.

But we’ll see. I try not to go into these movies with strong expectations on the content because I think it’s pretty obvious that’s what ruins the fun for everyone.


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## RangerWickett (Apr 13, 2019)

Look, clearly Palpatine survived the fall into the reactor, and then survived the Death Star explosion, and then survived the fall into Endor's gravity well, and has just been chilling out waiting for somebody to come pick him up.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 13, 2019)

RangerWickett said:


> Look, clearly Palpatine survived the fall into the reactor, and then survived the Death Star explosion, and then survived the fall into Endor's gravity well, and has just been chilling out waiting for somebody to come pick him up.




I think he was obviously doing nothing there. "Damn, this Sith thing is totally not working. I got almost killed by my pupil, and my beautiful Peace Moon lies in ruins.
I think it's probably best if the Sith die out and we forget this whole nonsense. It will never work." 
And for a few decades, he was just fine walking through the debris, occasionally scaring a random Ewok that dared to venture into the wreck. 
One day, when Palpatine is just watching across the Superlaser into the forest, some guy appears behind him. Palpatine turns around. It's Kylo Ren (well, he doesn't know that, because he has closed himself from the force, but the audience knows), holding out Darth Vader's old helmet, as if it was some kind of gift. Palpatine takes it, and throws it behind him. "What's with that old garbage? Thirsty for some Ewok Tears? I sure am. Follow me!"


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## Eltab (Apr 13, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> Nobody ever dies in the Disney universe



Ursula (_The Little Mermaid_) would like to have a word with you.  So would Maleficient.  And Gascon (_Beauty and the Beast_).
Mufasa (_Lion King_) died on-camera.


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## Eltab (Apr 13, 2019)

RangerWickett said:


> Look, clearly Palpatine survived the fall into the reactor, and then survived the Death Star explosion, and then survived the fall into Endor's gravity well, and has just been chilling out waiting for somebody to come pick him up.




New Sith power: Survive Infinite Falls.  
For Palpatine, the exploding reactor was just a push so he was falling in another direction.


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## Legatus Legionis (Apr 13, 2019)

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## Legatus Legionis (Apr 13, 2019)

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## Mercurius (Apr 15, 2019)

It looks good...or, at least, there is nothing that stands out as "Uh-oh."

That said, not sure how I feel about the Palpatine implication. I mean, if he's not dead after ROTJ, then he's virtually unkillable. I suppose he could be a force ghost, and then maybe we can have a rematch of him and Luke as force ghosts. Or would they need proxies?

One other thought: maybe this will allow them to redeem Kylo Ren, and say that he was in essence possessed or at least strongly influenced by Palpatine's urgings. Maybe what needs to happen for the Force to be "healed" is for someone to not only turn away from the Dark back to the Light, but do so and live...Anakin did it, but died and thus was never really tested.


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## Umbran (Apr 15, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> That said, not sure how I feel about the Palpatine implication.




Yeah.  I'm not sure this is a creatively rich direction.  I am hoping for something in the "Project Cinder" line, in which Palpatine left behind plans that would reach fruition only after a long period of time.


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## Mercurius (Apr 15, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Yeah.  I'm not sure this is a creatively rich direction.  I am hoping for something in the "Project Cinder" line, in which Palpatine left behind plans that would reach fruition only after a long period of time.




That makes sense to me. The problem seems to be that none of the Ep 7-8 villains are really evocative - not Darth Emo, Snoke, or the First Order. But at this point, it would be odd to introduce a new villain...so maybe they decided to circle back around to the tried and true Palpatine.


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## MarkB (Apr 15, 2019)

I get a strong impression that Rey and Kylo will end up teaming up in this one. The scene at the start simply doesn't work as a confrontation - Kylo in his starfighter could have ripped through Rey with a barrage of laser fire before getting close to her, or wiped her out when she made her leap just by flying slightly upwards.

It feels like either a training exercise, or the set-up for a combo move - maybe Rey winds up riding on top of Kylo's fighter as they head in against a mutual foe.


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## Zardnaar (Apr 16, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> That makes sense to me. The problem seems to be that none of the Ep 7-8 villains are really evocative - not Darth Emo, Snoke, or the First Order. But at this point, it would be odd to introduce a new villain...so maybe they decided to circle back around to the tried and true Palpatine.




They don't have time to develop a new villain. They can use the Emperor without resurrecting him though either his legacy (they have hinted at this in the new books) or as Umbran said something like Project Cinder where Palpatine left behind Droids with his personality/instructions in them. 

 I liked most of the trailer but I thought the TIE fighter jumping was kinda lame along with Palpatines laughter at the end, the rest was quite good. The TIE jumping was more Sonic the Hedgehog to me a'la The Clone Wars (bit much/silly), and Palpatine laughing was more "really they're going there". Palpatine resurrected, surviving in spirit form, or legacy is a good question to raise though see how they execute it. 

 In the new canon they confirmed that Palpatine is basically Anakins father, he could theoretically survive as a dark side spirit in the wreckage of the Death Star II. Rey could be a force experiment 2.0 a'la Anakin was one thought I did have as Palpatine's spirit could conceivably create a new person. Just hope they don't go with Palaptines spirit tries to possess Rey as he created her with the intention of getting a new body (its been done before). There is also a little something left behind on Jakku in the new canon.


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## Mercurius (Apr 16, 2019)

If Palpatine survived in _any_ form what I question--aside from just the improbableness--is the time gap...what is it, 30 years? What has he been doing? 

The new body for Palpatine thing is intriguing.


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## Zardnaar (Apr 16, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> If Palpatine survived in _any_ form what I question--aside from just the improbableness--is the time gap...what is it, 30 years? What has he been doing?
> 
> The new body for Palpatine thing is intriguing.




It was an idea from the old EU and the new one as they had Palps create Anakin. The old EU he had clone bodies he oculd switch between.

 In both EUs Sith spirits are a thing, they are generally tied to a location like a tomb or whatever. Yoda came across Darth banes spirit on Korriban.
 If you have played the KoToR games similar thing with their spirits. So some fragment of Palatine surviving makes sense in universe old and new canon. With clones and spontaneous creation of life being possible along with possession there are several ways they can go. Palps laughter could be a flashback, spirit, clone, resurrection, AI program, or possession. Resurrection would be kind of a groan, the others are a bit more interesting. It would also tie the 3 trilogies together. If Rey isn't technically a Skywalker but was created in a similar way and claims the Skywalker name, whats in a technicality/name.


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## Legatus Legionis (Apr 16, 2019)

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## Zardnaar (Apr 16, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> So you can do a clone/essence transfer as was done in the Dark Empire Comics.
> 
> Or..
> 
> You can use Sith holocrons or flashback sequences (as has been rumoured).




Hope they don't go Dark Empire unless its an outright clone perhaps. Dark Empire wasn't a good part of the old EU. Theres a variety of ways they can go with it, several make sense in universe (DS spirit, clones, Operation Cinder Droids).


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## Morrus (Apr 16, 2019)

So that opening scene with Rey and the TIE Interceptor. It doesn’t shoot at her, just chases her up close at ground level. Whoever is piloting it doesn’t want to kill her (you’d fire the ship’s guns at her, probably from much higher up in a strafing run).

So is this some kind of training exercise?


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## Dioltach (Apr 16, 2019)

Morrus said:


> So is this some kind of training exercise?




Question 1. A TIE Interceptor is coming at you at ground level. You are armed with a lightsaber. What do you do?
A. Kill it with your mind.
B. Wait until it is close, then run away.
C. Jump on top of it.
D. Other: ......


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## Imaculata (Apr 16, 2019)

MarkB said:


> I get a strong impression that Rey and Kylo will end up teaming up in this one.




I hope you're right.


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## Zardnaar (Apr 16, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> I hope you're right.




Rey goes dark or Kylo goes light (and survives) is my happy ending.


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## Zardnaar (Apr 16, 2019)

Dioltach said:


> Question 1. A TIE Interceptor is coming at you at ground level. You are armed with a lightsaber. What do you do?
> A. Kill it with your mind.
> B. Wait until it is close, then run away.
> C. Jump on top of it.
> D. Other: ......




A use the force and nudge it into the ground. It was flying very very low.


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## Istbor (Apr 16, 2019)

Blue said:


> Loved the Lando sighting.  I had heard that each of the movies were also going to be wrapping up an arc of a character from the original trilogy - Han, Luke, then Leia.  (That's what I think the whole training of Poe to be more than a hot shot pilot was in TLJ.)  Carrie Fisher's untimely and saddening death may have caused a rejiggering of that, and having Lando show up as their legacy character may help complete that.
> 
> Oh, and enjoy this:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFqtwlTXTPY&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2tK0Q2VBlbAs19Vtkwma5bbKKL1YSEadomicH66JKSbRDpwvEtTaJKdjI




I tried to enjoy that clip. However, I can't hear that song, and not picture the scene from Shawn of the Dead. 

Its been a few days, and man. This is a good 'teaser' trailer. Its got me thinking about possibilities way too much. And wishing it was coming soon. We just got out of Winter here, what is wrong with me!? Damn you Star Wars!


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## hawkeyefan (Apr 16, 2019)

The tie-fighter jump could be a dream sequence or Force vision or something like that, as well.


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## GreyLord (Apr 16, 2019)

My gamble...

Palps survives NOT as Palpatine, but an essence or holocron via a piece of equipment that Kylo has been carrying.  It may be that piece of roundish yellow item that you see in the trailer...it might not.

Of course, if Luke could be resurrected, so could Palps theoretically.  The question is...is that what actually happens or not...

On the Death Star item, it seems everyone is saying it is the Death Star, but seems quite small to me.  Curvature on the size of the Death Star Would be several times on the order of that...but then...who pays attention to the size of things in the OT anymore?

If it was a piece of it (but not the outer portion), why does it have a triangular backside?

Still, it would be interesting if it landed on ENDOR rather than it's moon.  Does the moon even have oceans?

Which has more water and oceans...the Moon of Endor or Yavin 4?

Interesting debate.


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## hawkeyefan (Apr 16, 2019)

I always thought the name of the moon was Endor, not the name of the planet. I don't know that the planet was ever named in the movie. I think maybe in one of the novels or comics, but those no longer count.

I don't see why it couldn't have an ocean, other than that it breaks from traditional Star Wars tropes of each planet being primarily one type of environment....a desert planet, a city planet, an ice planet, and so on. Obviously, the single environment planets are silly when you give it any thought, so it'll be interesting to see how they handle that. If it's not the moon of Endor, then I don't see why a large chunk of the Death Star couldn't have been propelled from the explosion and wound up landing on another system. 

But I think that it's definitely the Death Star wreckage; the location of Palpatine's death, combined with his laughter as voice over, with Luke saying "no one's ever really gone....." makes it a pretty sure thing to me.


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## Istbor (Apr 16, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> I always thought the name of the moon was Endor, not the name of the planet. I don't know that the planet was ever named in the movie. I think maybe in one of the novels or comics, but those no longer count.
> 
> I don't see why it couldn't have an ocean, other than that it breaks from traditional Star Wars tropes of each planet being primarily one type of environment....a desert planet, a city planet, an ice planet, and so on. Obviously, the single environment planets are silly when you give it any thought, so it'll be interesting to see how they handle that. If it's not the moon of Endor, then I don't see why a large chunk of the Death Star couldn't have been propelled from the explosion and wound up landing on another system.
> 
> But I think that it's definitely the Death Star wreckage; the location of Palpatine's death, combined with his laughter as voice over, with Luke saying "no one's ever really gone....." makes it a pretty sure thing to me.




Endor is a forested moon in the Star Wars universe. The moon was the site of a pivotal battle depicted in Return of the Jedi.

In a Star Wars Tales comic entitled Apocalypse Endor, an Imperial veteran of Endor refers to the moon being devastated by the impact of falling debris from the Death Star, which was blown up while in orbit around the moon. However, another character dismisses this as a myth, saying that most of the Death Star's mass was obliterated in the explosion, and that the Rebels "took care of the rest."


There also seems to be some debate on what happened to the planet Endor orbited. Like that it disappeared or was destroyed or is called Tana, or is maybe a gas giant.


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## MarkB (Apr 16, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> On the Death Star item, it seems everyone is saying it is the Death Star, but seems quite small to me.  Curvature on the size of the Death Star Would be several times on the order of that...but then...who pays attention to the size of things in the OT anymore?
> 
> If it was a piece of it (but not the outer portion), why does it have a triangular backside?



I've gone back and looked, and I can't see a triangular anything, nor any back side to it - we only see it from the front.

It's tough to judge scale, but it's pretty far away, practically on the horizon across a large gap of water. It doesn't appear egregiously mis-scaled.



> Still, it would be interesting if it landed on ENDOR rather than it's moon.  Does the moon even have oceans?




A piece of the Death Star that large, falling from orbit, is going to create a massive crater. Massive crater plus a couple of decades of rainfall will get you a decent sized sea, on either Endor or Yavin IV.


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## Mercurius (Apr 16, 2019)

MarkB said:


> A piece of the Death Star that large, falling from orbit, is going to create a massive crater. Massive crater plus a couple of decades of rainfall will get you a decent sized sea, on either Endor or Yavin IV.




Except for the fact that the Death Star would have been completely pulverized on impact, leaving virtually no trace of it - let alone a rather intact chunk, like we see in the trailer.

I'm not disagreeing with the possibility of a sea existing, mind you, or even taking issue with the chunk of Death Star existing. It just seems silly to provide scientific, logical rationale for something (the existence of the sea) in an already inherently improbable scenario (the chunk of Death Star remaining intact).

Star Wars is, in the end, at least as much fantasy as it is science fiction. This isn't Star Trek.


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## billd91 (Apr 16, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Star Wars is, in the end, at least as much fantasy as it is science fiction. This isn't Star Trek.




Star Trek isn’t exactly a gold standard of hard sci fi either (particularly with JJ Abrams’s fanciful sense of time and space). They just set their style dials slightly differently. Both franchises put the needs of the plot, style, and cool visuals before science.


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## Mercurius (Apr 17, 2019)

billd91 said:


> Star Trek isn’t exactly a gold standard of hard sci fi either (particularly with JJ Abrams’s fanciful sense of time and space). They just set their style dials slightly differently. Both franchises put the needs of the plot, style, and cool visuals before science.




I hear what you're saying, but it is a matter of degree. Relative to Star Wars, Trek is hard_er_ science fiction, and far more rationalized, especially Next Gen in which each episode seemed to be the fictionalization of some aspect of theoretical physics. The reason why so many were pissed at the whole midichlorian explanation is that it turned the Force from a mystical (and magical) energy to something physical and scientific. You don't need to rationalize or explain the fantastic - it just needs to make sense within the context of the world. But SF has to make sense sense within our own laws of physics. In that sense, Trek is far more "pure" scifi than SW.


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## Imaculata (Apr 17, 2019)

Am I alone in thinking that this trailer wasn't very exciting? There weren't a whole lot of surprises in it. Almost everyone expected Lando to return, and the emperor has returned before in expanded universe stuff. I hate to say it, but I didn't get hyped as much as when I saw the trailers of the previous two movies. It was a bit meh.


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## Zardnaar (Apr 17, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> Am I alone in thinking that this trailer wasn't very exciting? There weren't a whole lot of surprises in it. Almost everyone expected Lando to return, and the emperor has returned before in expanded universe stuff. I hate to say it, but I didn't get hyped as much as when I saw the trailers of the previous two movies. It was a bit meh.




Good but not mind blowing. Does make me want to see episode IX though, the quality will determine how often.


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## Paul Goldstone (Apr 17, 2019)

In the fiction Darth Plagueis was of the belief he had conquered Death and was more or less celebrating the fact when Darth Sideous poisoned him.  Snoke (awful terrible dreadful name) could have been Darth Plagueis reincarnated, and his death in The Last Jedi (shocking film) could have been some crazy sith test of layalty - having been killed by his apprentice previously and all that. 

There is also the possibility (from the fiction) that Darth Sideous had conquered time and space, which he believed was they way to defeat death.  He may have been able to manipulate the dark side to move him to a different time peiod, and be back and bad.

Rey could be another "Anakin" style child, or perhaps clone of Luke Skywalker - perhaps from his lost hand, which is why she has memories and the connection to Luke Skywalker.

In any case it can't be worse than TLJ which really lost it's way.


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## Morrus (Apr 17, 2019)

Keep TLJ arguments to their own thread, please. We are *not* going to hijack every thread into TLJ diatribes.


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## pukunui (Apr 17, 2019)

I’m disappointed they didn’t go with “From His Nap” for the title of this episode. 

I know people are saying Rey’s leap looks like a training thing because Kylo could’ve just strafed her but it looks to me like she’s going to try and slice the TIE open with her lightsaber.

Also, what if the grand adventure is all about Rey going to retrieve a khyber crystal from the ruins of the Death Star super laser in order to rebuild the Skywalker lightsaber? She can’t just go to Ilum since all signs point to it having been converted into Starkiller Base. (I wish they’d officially confirm/deny that instead of leaving it a mystery.)


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 17, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> I always thought the name of the moon was Endor, not the name of the planet. I don't know that the planet was ever named in the movie. I think maybe in one of the novels or comics, but those no longer count.
> 
> I don't see why it couldn't have an ocean, other than that it breaks from traditional Star Wars tropes of each planet being primarily one type of environment....a desert planet, a city planet, an ice planet, and so on. Obviously, the single environment planets are silly when you give it any thought, so it'll be interesting to see how they handle that. If it's not the moon of Endor, then I don't see why a large chunk of the Death Star couldn't have been propelled from the explosion and wound up landing on another system.
> 
> But I think that it's definitely the Death Star wreckage; the location of Palpatine's death, combined with his laughter as voice over, with Luke saying "no one's ever really gone....." makes it a pretty sure thing to me.




Of course, sometimes trailers lie.

In case they don't, here is my questionable prediction: 

At some point in the past, Kylo Ren realized that the Emperor was not actually dead, and he was manipulating Snoke (and maybe Kylo) to serve his bidding. It could be Kylo knew the moment he felt the Dark Side temptation and basically did the same thing Luke Skywalker did in the old EU's Dark Empire plotline, indulging the Dark Side so that eventually he could resist and beat Palpatine. Or he only got wise on it much later.
Rey's parents were indeed nobodies - she was a force birth, just like Anakin Skywalker, created by Palpatine, but unlike Shmi, they didn't realize anything was amiss, since they actually had sex as romantic partners sometimes do. They might still have been irresponsible s, though, but maybe Palpatine manipulated them to abandon their child. Palpatine needs to be sure that Rey forms no strong attachments, no father and mother figures can be allowed to survive. That's why Kylo had to kill his father, because he became a surrogate father to Rey, and why Luke Skywalker had to die eventually (since exile clearly was insufficient.)
Rey is supposed to become Palpatine's next vessel to return from the dead. So far she has proven very strong in the force.

Kylo Ren looks like a neat little tool for him so far, but in truth, he is really trying to finish what his grandfather, Darth Vader, started, and kill the Emperor for good. This might require a last battle against Rey (possibly possessed by the Emperor), and this time, he finally has to win. 

Obviously, that involves heavy retconning and will likely not stand up to close scrutiny - but, to be unfair, that has never stopped J.J.Abrams.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 17, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> If Palpatine survived in _any_ form what I question--aside from just the improbableness--is the time gap...what is it, 30 years? What has he been doing?
> 
> The new body for Palpatine thing is intriguing.




I don't think I can account for all of those 30 years, but for half the time he might have been playing Holonet Chess with Luke. (Luke didn't know, because he separated himself from the force, he was playing against a bantha unicorn.)


----------



## MarkB (Apr 17, 2019)

Paul Goldstone said:


> In the fiction Darth Plagueis was of the belief he had conquered Death and was more or less celebrating the fact when Darth Sideous poisoned him.  Snoke (awful terrible dreadful name) could have been Darth Plagueis reincarnated, and his death in The Last Jedi (shocking film) could have been some crazy sith test of layalty - having been killed by his apprentice previously and all that.




Snoke isn't a great name, but I do find it amusing that you criticise it in the same paragraph as talking about Darth Plagueis. Sith names aren't exactly subtle, but that one vies with "Doctor Evil" for on-the-nose I'm-the-villain naming.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 17, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Of course, sometimes trailers lie.
> 
> In case they don't, here is my questionable prediction:
> 
> ...




 I also had the Rey is a fragment of Palpatine idea. He creates a new vessel with the intention of taking a new body. Rey going dark via Palpatine possession is somewhat interesting. Rey being a fragment of someone else would also explain a few things. Its kind of been done before (Dark Empire, Exar Kun) but the execution could be interesting. Palapatine surviving as a spirit makes the most sense and has been done in the old and new canon with Sith.

The two endings I don't want.

1. Kylo redeems, sacrificing himself in the process.
2. Rey cuts Kylo down.

 Sith spirits are kinda like undead, Jedi force ghosts are more like ascended beings or some kind of celestial.


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## MarkB (Apr 17, 2019)

I think it'll turn out that Palpatine survived by splitting his essence off into five physical vessels scattered across the galaxy. Anakin's old lightsaber was one, and when it broke it released part of his essence, which is why he's back now.

In order to defeat him for good, the heroes need to find a way to destroy the other four items - known as Holocruxes - by methods so thorough that his remaining spirit-fragments are also consumed, rather than being released back out into the galaxy.


----------



## Satyrn (Apr 17, 2019)

MarkB said:


> I think it'll turn out that Palpatine survived by splitting his essence off into five physical vessels scattered across the galaxy. Anakin's old lightsaber was one, and when it broke it released part of his essence, which is why he's back now.
> 
> In order to defeat him for good, the heroes need to find a way to destroy the other four items - known as Holocruxes - by methods so thorough that his remaining spirit-fragments are also consumed, rather than being released back out into the galaxy.




Kinda like the Infinity stones? Ooh! We could have a crossover!

Darth Thanos.


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## Mercurius (Apr 17, 2019)

MarkB said:


> Snoke isn't a great name, but I do find it amusing that you criticise it in the same paragraph as talking about Darth Plagueis. Sith names aren't exactly subtle, but that one vies with "Doctor Evil" for on-the-nose I'm-the-villain naming.




Let's be honest, by and large they're downright silly. Star Wars doesn't exactly excel in the naming department - especially on the dark side of things. Darth Plagueis might be the worst of all, but some honorable mentions include Snoke, Darth Maul (kewl, but silly), Captain Phasma. Even Darth Sidious is kinda silly.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 17, 2019)

Sidious made me think that the system behind Sith names is: Find a word starting with In, and then delete the In. 

- Darth Vader = Invader
- Darth Sidious = Insidious

Logical Consequence: 
- Darth Voluntary
- Darh Terim
- Darth Able
- Darth Articulate
- Darth Caved
- Darth Dent
- Darth Oculation
- Darth Side
- Darth Tractable
- Darth Continent

Unfortunately, Darth Maul and Plaegius suggest this is not canon. What a shame.


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## Istbor (Apr 17, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Sidious made me think that the system behind Sith names is: Find a word starting with In, and then delete the In.
> 
> - Darth Vader = Invader
> - Darth Sidious = Insidious
> ...




I'd claim myself as Darth Side any day.


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## Zardnaar (Apr 17, 2019)

It's find an edgy name and stick Darth in front of it. Darth Bane, Talone, Stryfe, Wyrlock. Z, Xs and Latin is also popular eg Caedus, Zannah etc.


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## Eltab (Apr 17, 2019)

re: Palpatine's laughter

I think I would rather have a _Foundation_-like scene* where one of the current characters finds an old recording of Palpatine foretelling the future - because he has looked ahead with the Force - and concludes with something like "Now, child, you know what you must do. -cackling laughter-"  His prediction is mostly spot-on but the differences (because 'always in motion the future is') suggest how to avoid the doom he foretells.

* In Asimov's original trilogy, look for a chapter that is set at the Second Foundation's time vault and includes a hologram that begins by saying "I am Hari Seldon!"


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## Jester David (Apr 18, 2019)

Ugh.

I was there until the laugh. We don’t need Palpatine back. He adds nothing. His story is over. 
This is going to be more Abrams nostalgia-as-a-crutch BS...

I’m still going to see this in theaters, but it will be on week three. Unless I get busy, then I might wait to PPV.


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## Mercurius (Apr 18, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Ugh.
> 
> I was there until the laugh. We don’t need Palpatine back. He adds nothing. His story is over.
> This is going to be more Abrams nostalgia-as-a-crutch BS...
> ...




I hear you, although let's face it: that's what Abrams does best. Has he brought forth anything vaguely original? Furthermore, at this point it might a matter of choosing the best of not-great options, as far as who the final (and "real") villain really is. Kylo Ren simply isn't convincing, and I think is more evocative as a troubled (and possibly redeemed?) soul. Snoke would have been more interesting if he hadn't simply been a caricature of Pure Evil, and also had some grounding in the Star Wars universe. Plus, an actual actor vs. CGI over Gollum.

I don't love bringing Palpatine back, but I must admit to being curious as to how they're going to connect the dots. At the very least it implies that there are more revelations to come, beyond "Snoke was some random evil dude from far away who could use the force, manipulated Kylo Ren, and now we have to deal with Kylo Ren."


----------



## Istbor (Apr 18, 2019)

Anyone have thoughts on how much time will have passed between VIII and IX??

I am going to guess... at least a year.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Apr 18, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Let's be honest, by and large they're downright silly. Star Wars doesn't exactly excel in the naming department - especially on the dark side of things. Darth Plagueis might be the worst of all, but some honorable mentions include Snoke, Darth Maul (kewl, but silly), Captain Phasma. Even Darth Sidious is kinda silly.




I don’t think Phasma is a particularly silly name, and Captain is just a rank. 

As for the Darths, at least these are chosen names, which represent their self perception and give a window into what sort of antagonist they are. 

Vader is fun, bc it’s a somewhat violent sounding name, almost imposing on its own, especially when it’s “Lord Vader”, and Vader uses his imposing size and the constant threat of sudden violence to cow people and terrify enemies. 

Maul is definately a name an angry angry violent berseker of a young man chose for himself. It’s perfect. 

Tyrranus is so dumb I hate it, and the character is a total waste of Christopher Lee, but it also fits as a name chosen by Duuku. (Which is a bad name. I’d want a new one, too!)

then we get Darth Sidius. They took insidious and make it focus harder of the snakey “s” sounds. I mean, again, a lovely name to have as a very private joke with yourself as you infiltrate and rot from within the core the greatest institution that has ever existed, inventing catastrophic war while brokering peace. No wonder he’s so smug all the time! 

But Palagius or whatever is still a dumb name.


----------



## Satyrn (Apr 18, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Sidious made me think that the system behind Sith names is: Find a word starting with In, and then delete the In.
> 
> - Darth Vader = Invader
> - Darth Sidious = Insidious
> ...




I'm assuming Darth Dent's story began when he escaped the destruction of Alderaan by hitchhiking aboard the Death Star.


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## Jester David (Apr 18, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> I hear you, although let's face it: that's what Abrams does best. Has he brought forth anything vaguely original?



No. That's why I was disappointed he was back as director. But I was hopeful he'd try harder and bring his A-game.
Instead…
Rey rebuilds the destroyed lightsaber exactly like it was. 
And Kylo is back in his lame performance-hiding helmet. 
And we're returning to a planet we've seen before. Or two. 
And now the villain seems to be recycled. 

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt but now my expectations are loooooow. 



Mercurius said:


> Furthermore, at this point it might a matter of choosing the best of not-great options, as far as who the final (and "real") villain really is. Kylo Ren simply isn't convincing, and I think is more evocative as a troubled (and possibly redeemed?) soul.



Which makes Palpatine returning more of a problem. 
This was Ren's movie. He was the big bad. It was his time to shine, restoring him as a menacing threat and a worthy villain. But having to share the spotlight as villain with Palpatine just makes it harder for him stand out. 

I don't want to see him redeemed. Because we saw that already with Anakin. We've done that story. 
And ending the film with him alive doesn't end the Skywalker saga. He needs to die and the bloodline needs to end. There needs to be finality. 



Mercurius said:


> Snoke would have been more interesting if he hadn't simply been a caricature of Pure Evil, and also had some grounding in the Star Wars universe. Plus, an actual actor vs. CGI over Gollum.



Snoke would have been more interesting if he wasn't just "The Emperor Redux". Making him CGI was at least something different. 
The most interesting and original thing Snoke could have done was die suddenly. 



Mercurius said:


> I don't love bringing Palpatine back, but I must admit to being curious as to how they're going to connect the dots.



There are cool things they could do.

It'd be interesting to have Palpatine be a Force Ghost, whispering evil suggestions and guidance to Kylo in a twisted reflection of Luke and Ben. 
But I seriously doubt they'll go that route. 

(But it'd be neat to have a Force Ghost battle between Luke and Palpatine. Possibly with Anakin there too. Having the protagonists of all three trilogies duel it out with a Kylo Ren infused with Ghost Palpatine would be a lovely end to the Saga. But that also feels like cheap fan service.)



Mercurius said:


> At the very least it implies that there are more revelations to come, beyond "Snoke was some random evil dude from far away who could use the force, manipulated Kylo Ren, and now we have to deal with Kylo Ren."



I don't mind that simplicity. Because there's still the Knights of Ren and possibly rebuilding the Jedi or something new. And defeating the First Order. This should focus on wrapping up the plot threads, and not adding more.

I thought _The Last Jedi_ set-up a decent conflict, with the Resistance shattered and going to ground. The First Order largely unopposed, but vulnerable due to the inevitably power struggle between Hux and Ren.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 18, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> I hear you, although let's face it: that's what Abrams does best. Has he brought forth anything vaguely original?




Did Lucas?

If you’re looking for originality, Star Wars is not your huckleberry. 

I’d try indie cinema!


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## Mercurius (Apr 19, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Did Lucas?
> 
> If you’re looking for originality, Star Wars is not your huckleberry.
> 
> I’d try indie cinema!




Disagree on this. By "originality" I don't mean mere clever novelty. The original series was plenty original in terms of how it brought imaginative worlds to the screen. When Star Wars came out there was nothing quite like it. Sure, it was based on Joseph Campbell's ideas, but even that was something fresh and new.


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## Zardnaar (Apr 19, 2019)

Morrus very little is 100% original. Lucas had his influences but he didn't out right copy anything and Star Wars was in a state of flux in development. He used the heroes journey template for example but there is a reason it works.

 This theory has been around for a while, but IDK how familiar the good posters at ENworld are with it.

http://whatculture.com/film/star-wars-9-theory-emperor-palpatine-created-rey-as-an-anakin-clone

 Its similar to one I posted about with Palatines spirit creating a new force being (Anakin 2.0), but a difference is there may be a fragment of Anakin in Rey.

 Sith Spirits being an old Legneds trope crica 1994. If you played Knights of the Old Republic they're in that for example. Darth Banes spirit made an appearance in the Clone Wars cartoon as well.


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## Morrus (Apr 19, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Disagree on this. By "originality" I don't mean mere clever novelty. The original series was plenty original in terms of how it brought imaginative worlds to the screen. When Star Wars came out there was nothing quite like it. Sure, it was based on Joseph Campbell's ideas, but even that was something fresh and new.




It was based on much more than that.

Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe is Luke and Han infiltrating the Death Star in disguise as Stormtroopers. The Hidden Fortress is C3PO and R2D2. Dam Busters is the Trench Run (Lucas even copies WWII movie footage for the X-Wing TIE fighter scenes). The Jedi are mystical Samurai (they're named after 'Jidaigeki', a type of Samurai drama). Hell, check out Darth Vader and the stormtroopers in The Fighting Devil Dogs:






There's books on this. I think what he made was great. But he's like Tarantino - he cobbles together homages to other things.


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## Mercurius (Apr 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> No. That's why I was disappointed he was back as director. But I was hopeful he'd try harder and bring his A-game.
> Instead…
> Rey rebuilds the destroyed lightsaber exactly like it was.
> And Kylo is back in his lame performance-hiding helmet.
> ...




Well again, its the third movie of three - so he has to make sure to tie up loose ends rather than create new ones...except insofar as they might want to set the stage for the next trilogy (e.g. maybe the Knights of Ren escape and become villains for later on).

On a side note, I don't mind Kylo getting his helmet back as he is more imposing that way. I really like Adam Driver as a quirky Indie movie actor (e.g. Paterson, What If, etc), but for me he was miscast...his greatest strength as an actor is his comedic presence which is, by necessity, entirely lacking as Kylo Ren. Actually, his limitations as Kylo Ren makes me realize just how difficult it is for actors to play the tortured soul with immense powers...I'm wondering how Sophie Turner is going to fair as Dark Phoenix.



Jester David said:


> Which makes Palpatine returning more of a problem.
> This was Ren's movie. He was the big bad. It was his time to shine, restoring him as a menacing threat and a worthy villain. But having to share the spotlight as villain with Palpatine just makes it harder for him stand out.
> 
> I don't want to see him redeemed. Because we saw that already with Anakin. We've done that story.
> And ending the film with him alive doesn't end the Skywalker saga. He needs to die and the bloodline needs to end. There needs to be finality.




Maybe, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Even if they kill the bloodline in this film, they're going to bring it back somehow, somewhen. Anyhow, one version of redemption we haven't seen is that he is redeemed and lives - including has to live with what he did. Or maybe he was just going deep undercover, even to the point of killing his own father, so that he could finish what his grandfather started and kill Palpatine, once and for all.




Jester David said:


> Snoke would have been more interesting if he wasn't just "The Emperor Redux". Making him CGI was at least something different.
> The most interesting and original thing Snoke could have done was die suddenly.




I think something is always lost with CGI. Always. Even with nonhumans (e.g. Smaug was great, but I still prefer the dragon from _Dragonslayer)._



Jester David said:


> There are cool things they could do.
> 
> It'd be interesting to have Palpatine be a Force Ghost, whispering evil suggestions and guidance to Kylo in a twisted reflection of Luke and Ben.
> But I seriously doubt they'll go that route.
> ...




That would be so ridiculously over-the-top and gonzo that I'd like to see it. But can we really stomach seeing Hayden Christiansen back on screen? And don't forget Yoda! There'd be no way he wouldn't be part of the action, unless they do some big reveal that Yoda has transcended the duality of Light and Dark and follows a more Taoist style approach.




Jester David said:


> I don't mind that simplicity. Because there's still the Knights of Ren and possibly rebuilding the Jedi or something new. And defeating the First Order. This should focus on wrapping up the plot threads, and not adding more.




My guess is that the FO is defeated, the Knights of Ren make their debut but they and a new Jedi Order are more part of the next trilogy.


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## Mercurius (Apr 19, 2019)

Morrus said:


> There's books on this. I think what he made was great. But he's like Tarantino - he cobbles together homages to other things.




Sure, but maybe this just points to what "originality" is and isn't. I see novelty and originality as different. Novelty is just being different for the sake of being different and is often not really original. Originality has more to do with creativity and authenticity. It might not even be novel (new/different), but could still be quite original.


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## Morrus (Apr 19, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Sure, but maybe this just points to what "originality" is and isn't. I see novelty and originality as different. Novelty is just being different for the sake of being different and is often not really original. Originality has more to do with creativity and authenticity. It might not even be novel (new/different), but could still be quite original.




I don’t know what that means. But anyway, Lucas copies a lot of stuff. And not in a subtle way - like shot for shot. 

It’s not a criticism. I like what he made. I like Tarantino a lot too.


----------



## Jester David (Apr 19, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Well again, its the third movie of three - so he has to make sure to tie up loose ends rather than create new ones...except insofar as they might want to set the stage for the next trilogy (e.g. maybe the Knights of Ren escape and become villains for later on).



Rian Johnson is off doing his own trilogy. I imagine it will be largely unrelated. 



Mercurius said:


> On a side note, I don't mind Kylo getting his helmet back as he is more imposing that way. I really like Adam Driver as a quirky Indie movie actor (e.g. Paterson, What If, etc), but for me he was miscast...his greatest strength as an actor is his comedic presence which is, by necessity, entirely lacking as Kylo Ren.



I don’t disagree. And if it was just the mask I wouldn’t mind. 
But they didn’t even let Rey customize her lightsaber... She should totally have a staff/sabre hybrid. Like a glaive.



Mercurius said:


> Maybe, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Even if they kill the bloodline in this film, they're going to bring it back somehow, somewhen.



I think they will, just so they can break away from the “Episode #” expectations. Shift to different types of movies. Move away from big stories expected to change the status quo. 



Mercurius said:


> That would be so ridiculously over-the-top and gonzo that I'd like to see it. But can we really stomach seeing Hayden Christiansen back on screen?



Christiansen is just fine. He can act as long as Lucas isn’t directing & writing.

It’s odd that he gets all the hate when Natalie Portman was just as abysmal in those films. Everyone is quick to bring up his “sand” line, but she gets a pass for the terribly, terribly delivered “so love has blinded you?” line.
*wince*

I’d LOVE the chance for Hayden to come back and try to redeem himself. Come out and surprise everyone with his Anakin.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Rian Johnson is off doing his own trilogy. I imagine it will be largely unrelated.
> 
> 
> I don’t disagree. And if it was just the mask I wouldn’t mind.
> ...




Padme is a crap character as well along with Episode I and II Anakin, at least Episode III was kinder to Anakin.

 I give Christiansen, Jake Loyd, and Natalie a pass though the problem is Lucas. The actor who play Rose Tico also gets a pass from me. None of them (except maybe Natalie) will win a best actor award anytime soon but they're not bad actors as such.


----------



## ccs (Apr 19, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Except for the fact that the Death Star would have been completely pulverized on impact, leaving virtually no trace of it - let alone a rather intact chunk, like we see in the trailer.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing with the possibility of a sea existing, mind you, or even taking issue with the chunk of Death Star existing. It just seems silly to provide scientific, logical rationale for something (the existence of the sea) in an already inherently improbable scenario (the chunk of Death Star remaining intact).
> 
> Star Wars is, in the end, at least as much fantasy as it is science fiction. This isn't Star Trek.




??  You're arguing _Star Wars _ physics (of wich there are none), on a website dedicated to a game about elves & dwarves & s** where dragons flying is a thing....


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## ccs (Apr 19, 2019)

Paul Goldstone said:


> In any case it can't be worse than TLJ which really lost it's way.




You say that now....

But you know what?  That's been said after each of the Prequel Episodes.  And then again after TFA.  In each case this belief has been dashed.


----------



## ccs (Apr 19, 2019)

Istbor said:


> Anyone have thoughts on how much time will have passed between VIII and IX??
> 
> I am going to guess... at least a year.




I'll put my $ on "Indeterminate".


----------



## GreyLord (Apr 19, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Padme is a crap character as well along with Episode I and II Anakin, at least Episode III was kinder to Anakin.
> 
> I give Christiansen, Jake Loyd, and Natalie a pass though the problem is Lucas. The actor who play Rose Tico also gets a pass from me. None of them (except maybe Natalie) will win a best actor award anytime soon but they're not bad actors as such.




You know, I suppose I may be in the minority but I actually LIKE the Rose character.  I think people complain about her character FAR TOO MUCH.

I think the character itself was just fine.  People may not like some of the branches of story, but the character itself, I don't see the problem with her.  I also think the actor did fine with what she was given.

My own take on that specific character.


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## Zardnaar (Apr 19, 2019)

Basically the same as me. I'm indifferent to her the plotline sucked but not her fault. Problem is I'm now indifferent to all of the characters, villain,  hero, whatever it's all a big meh. Nothing in the other movies matters, and all the characters are dumb and dumber.

 Where did all the aliens go as well? Jar Jar is annoying but at least it's kind fun to dislike him.


----------



## hawkeyefan (Apr 19, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Basically the same as me. I'm indifferent to her the plotline sucked but not her fault. Problem is I'm now indifferent to all of the characters, villain,  hero, whatever it's all a big meh. Nothing in the other movies matters, and all the characters are dumb and dumber.
> 
> Where did all the aliens go as well? Jar Jar is annoying but at least it's kind fun to dislike him.




I think perhaps you're expecting a bit too much from Star Wars. Notice how all the characters you're okay with were ones introduced to you when you were a child, and all the ones you've been introduced to as an adult are "crap characters" about whom you're "indifferent". 

Is there really all that much different about the old characters and the new and how they're portrayed in the films? Were Luke and Han and Leia really given a whole lot of depth in the first three films? Not really.....they were archetypical characters with little more to them. The farm boy with a meaningful destiny, the plucky princess, and the scoundrel. 

This touches on the originality point that came up. Star Wars is not trying to be original. It is intentionally leaning on tropes and classic mono-mythic elements. Wizards and heroes and evil lords and so on. Now, for many of us, we're introduced to Star Wars early enough that all these ideas seem original, and it's only later on we found out how much Lucas is drawing from older material. So once we learn that, I think if our expectations for the films doesn't change at all, then we're likely not going to enjoy them as much. 

Maybe you're just done with Star Wars?


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 19, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> I think perhaps you're expecting a bit too much from Star Wars. Notice how all the characters you're okay with were ones introduced to you when you were a child, and all the ones you've been introduced to as an adult are "crap characters" about whom you're "indifferent".
> 
> Is there really all that much different about the old characters and the new and how they're portrayed in the films? Were Luke and Han and Leia really given a whole lot of depth in the first three films? Not really.....they were archetypical characters with little more to them. The farm boy with a meaningful destiny, the plucky princess, and the scoundrel.
> 
> ...




I liked the new characters in the cartoons. Well Zeb, Hera, Sabine as heros and The Grand Inquisitor,  Thrawn and 7th Sister made good villains.


----------



## Mercurius (Apr 19, 2019)

ccs said:


> ??  You're arguing _Star Wars _ physics (of wich there are none), on a website dedicated to a game about elves & dwarves & s** where dragons flying is a thing....




Actually, I'm not - I'm doing the exact opposite, pointing out that Star Wars is fantasy and only needs to make sense within the context of its own world.


----------



## Legatus Legionis (Apr 20, 2019)

.


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## Morrus (Apr 20, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> I heard an interesting theory.
> 
> "The Rise of Skywalker" refers not to the person of Luke Skywalker, but to a cult/religious order that forms when the Resistance transmits to the universe all that Luke Skywalker, the Last of the Jedi, did to defeat the Empire.




Everybody has that theory.


----------



## MarkB (Apr 20, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Everybody has that theory.




I don't. It's the first time I've heard it.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 20, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> I heard an interesting theory.
> 
> "The Rise of Skywalker" refers not to the person of Luke Skywalker, but to a cult/religious order that forms when the Resistance transmits to the universe all that Luke Skywalker, the Last of the Jedi, did to defeat the Empire.
> 
> Before the release of the title, it was rumoured to be "The Wills of the Force".  An order that believed in the Neutrality of the Force, where the Jedi and the Sith used the most extreme/polar opposite views.  (Currently Legends material.)




Might not be a bad idea unless the Skywalkers replace the Jedi. Not a fan of that idea. Once this trilogy is done I want less Skywalkers and the Jedi to still be around. Put simply new force tradition called Skywalkers eh ok whatever its OK, Skywalkers replacing the Jedi sigh makes RoTJ pointless.


----------



## Jester David (Apr 20, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Might not be a bad idea unless the Skywalkers replace the Jedi. Not a fan of that idea. Once this trilogy is done I want less Skywalkers and the Jedi to still be around. Put simply new force tradition called Skywalkers eh ok whatever its OK, Skywalkers replacing the Jedi sigh makes RoTJ pointless.



I like the idea of something else taking over. RotJ was neat, and them returning was cool when they were this mythical unknown. But the prequels really showed the flaws of the Jedi Order. Their failures led to the rise of the empire and the deaths of untold trillions.

Luke just going out and reforming the Jedi feels like repeating a mistake. Like the son of Mordred refounding the Knights of the Round Table.

I would actually be impressed by Abrams if he goes the route of a new order of Force Users that breaks the cycle of the Sith and Jedi. That changes the dynamic of the galaxy. That would be hella new and invigorating for the franchise, as even the EU was bound to the idea of Sith vs Jedi, which was made all the more pointless as the struggle had lasted 100,000 years.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> I like the idea of something else taking over. RotJ was neat, and them returning was cool when they were this mythical unknown. But the prequels really showed the flaws of the Jedi Order. Their failures led to the rise of the empire and the deaths of untold trillions.
> 
> Luke just going out and reforming the Jedi feels like repeating a mistake. Like the son of Mordred refounding the Knights of the Round Table.
> 
> I would actually be impressed by Abrams if he goes the route of a new order of Force Users that breaks the cycle of the Sith and Jedi. That changes the dynamic of the galaxy. That would be hella new and invigorating for the franchise, as even the EU was bound to the idea of Sith vs Jedi, which was made all the more pointless as the struggle had lasted 100,000 years.




 When the EU ended it was heavily playing up the Sith and the Jedi balancing each other out. And they did add new force orders like the Imperial Knights. Skywalkers as a force tradition the names a bit silly.

 The Sith were not around for 100 000 years maybe the species but the Sith as galcticc bad guys was more 5000 years. They over did the Jedi/Sith thing a bit to much but old republic era was interesting and the Sith/Jedi take on the Legacy of the Force comics was also well done IMHO with Cade Skywalker. Lukes Jedi also do actually save the galaxy as well so they succeed. 

 Lukes NJO was also a lot less dogmatic than the movies, they could go off and marry, found new force traditions etc. And some of them had a great visual.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_Knight

 I don't think they will go with eliminating the Jedi though, they might want to do a episode X-XII one day or set movies after IX. Its also risky if they do a Knights of the Old epublic era trilogy (it has been discussed) and potential audiences might not care about it if they know the Jedi ultimately go away. Its a very big Star Wars trope (the biggest?), I wouldn't go there if I was in charge of Disney lol. You would almost have to wonder if they are deliberately trying to chase their fans away at that point. Would bet money on that reaction being worse than the reaction to TLJ.


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## Jester David (Apr 20, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> When the EU ended it was heavily playing up the Sith and the Jedi balancing each other out. And they did add new force orders like the Imperial Knights.



I'll take your word for it...



Zardnaar said:


> Skywalkers as a force tradition the names a bit silly.



No sillier than "Jedi". 
It just feels silly because it's unfamiliar. 



Zardnaar said:


> The Sith were not around for 100 000 years maybe the species but the Sith as galcticc bad guys was more 5000 years. They over did the Jedi/Sith thing a bit to much but old republic era was interesting and the Sith/Jedi take on the Legacy of the Force comics was also well done IMHO with Cade Skywalker. Lukes Jedi also do actually save the galaxy as well so they succeed.



I was exaggerating with the "100,000 years" line. But it was 25,000 years. With thousands of years of warfare throughout the first ten millennium of the Republic's lifetime. It's a ridiculously long period of constant battle. 



Zardnaar said:


> Lukes NJO was also a lot less dogmatic than the movies, they could go off and marry, found new force traditions etc. And some of them had a great visual.



I believe a lot of that also pre-dated the dogma of the prequels. So it was less that they were "more flexible than the Jedi" and more that the restrictions hadn't been invented yet. And once they had, they retconned it to Luke being more relaxed. 



Zardnaar said:


> I don't think they will go with eliminating the Jedi though, they might want to do a episode X-XII one day or set movies after IX.



I think having an "order of Skywalkers" would open things up for stories just as much as restarting the Jedi Order. 

And it doesn't sound like they're doing a Episode X+ anytime soon. Really, the movies haven't been doing well, what with China not giving an eff. They might see the response to Rian Johnson's next trilogy and decide if they want to keep annual movies or just focus on television.



Zardnaar said:


> Its also risky if they do a Knights of the Old epublic era trilogy (it has been discussed) and potential audiences might not care about it if they know the Jedi ultimately go away.



I don't see how that would matter. 
People know the Knights of the Round Table all die, and they still watch Camelolt movies. 



Zardnaar said:


> Its a very big Star Wars trope (the biggest?), I wouldn't go there if I was in charge of Disney lol. You would almost have to wonder if they are deliberately trying to chase their fans away at that point.



I'd argue the trope of rebels fighting the empire is much bigger. You can have movies without the Jedi. 
Really, of the franchise is to survive and grow it NEEDs to branch out away from the Jedi and the Force and be able to tell stories of the Black Sun and Mandalorians and junk traders.



Zardnaar said:


> Would bet money on that reaction being worse than the reaction to TLJ.



Yeah... only like 10% of the audience hated TLJ. Most people liked it. It's a small vocal minority that hated it and is particularly loud online. And just as many people LOVED it and called it one of the best ones. With the vast, vast majority falling solidly in the middle. 

The TLJ was a huge success for Lucas Films and Star Wars and in no way divided the audience remotely as much as comments online would lead you to believe.


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## Zardnaar (Apr 20, 2019)

Republic lasted 25000 years, the Jedi were shorter than that 

 They just focused the stories on war set over thousands of years.  Earth's history had a lot more wars in a timeframe 1/10th of the Republic.

 They can easily tell a Star Wars story without the Jedi don't need to kill them off to do it.  The old EU had plenty of non Jedi stories covering everything you mentioned. For Mandalore . They even had female Mandalorians OMG!!!!

 They also passed the torch to Jaina Solo with Ben Skywalker in training. She even trained with the Mandalorians to face her brother who fell to the darkside. He inherited the Skywalker whine so killing him off was good lol. Luke and could were still around but they were definitely transitioning in to the next generation.


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## pukunui (Apr 20, 2019)

In an attempt to steer the conversation back to the teaser, am I the only one who feels like that guy getting taken down by Kylo Ren in the red-tinged forest is one of the other Knights of Ren? The outfit and weapon remind me of the guys seen standing in the rain with Kylo in Rey’s Force vision in TFA.


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 20, 2019)

pukunui said:


> In an attempt to steer the conversation back to the teaser, am I the only one who feels like that guy getting taken down by Kylo Ren in the red-tinged forest is one of the other Knights of Ren? The outfit and weapon remind me of the guys seen standing in the rain with Kylo in Rey’s Force vision in TFA.




Seriously there is a whole other thread for that argument. 

And yeah, rewatching it, I think you’re right.


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## MarkB (Apr 20, 2019)

pukunui said:


> In an attempt to steer the conversation back to the teaser, am I the only one who feels like that guy getting taken down by Kylo Ren in the red-tinged forest is one of the other Knights of Ren? The outfit and weapon remind me of the guys seen standing in the rain with Kylo in Rey’s Force vision in TFA.




Perhaps. Alternatively, if Palpatine really is back, it could be a Sith, or one of their minions.


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## Mercurius (Apr 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> I like the idea of something else taking over. RotJ was neat, and them returning was cool when they were this mythical unknown. But the prequels really showed the flaws of the Jedi Order. Their failures led to the rise of the empire and the deaths of untold trillions.
> 
> Luke just going out and reforming the Jedi feels like repeating a mistake. Like the son of Mordred refounding the Knights of the Round Table.
> 
> I would actually be impressed by Abrams if he goes the route of a new order of Force Users that breaks the cycle of the Sith and Jedi. That changes the dynamic of the galaxy. That would be hella new and invigorating for the franchise, as even the EU was bound to the idea of Sith vs Jedi, which was made all the more pointless as the struggle had lasted 100,000 years.




Yes, I very much agree with this and like the idea of a more Taoistic, non-dualistic Force tradition. Of course as with the Hegelian dialectic, even if the Skywalkers were a synthesis and transcendence of the duality of Jedi and Sith, a new antithesis would form in contrast to it as a thesis, so we'd be back to "good" Skywalkers vs. "bad" ???


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## Zardnaar (Apr 20, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Yes, I very much agree with this and like the idea of a more Taoistic, non-dualistic Force tradition. Of course as with the Hegelian dialectic, even if the Skywalkers were a synthesis and transcendence of the duality of Jedi and Sith, a new antithesis would form in contrast to it as a thesis, so we'd be back to "good" Skywalkers vs. "bad" ???




Something like this?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Aing-Tii


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 20, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Yes, I very much agree with this and like the idea of a more Taoistic, non-dualistic Force tradition. Of course as with the Hegelian dialectic, even if the Skywalkers were a synthesis and transcendence of the duality of Jedi and Sith, a new antithesis would form in contrast to it as a thesis, so we'd be back to "good" Skywalkers vs. "bad" ???




I’d much rather continue to have a franchise where there is genuine Good, genuine Evil, and folks in between. 

In more DnD terms; the Dark Side is the corruption represented by aberrations, and the Force is Nature/The Will of Nature. Nature is unbalanced as long as beholders and aboleths exist. There is no balance between Nature and Aberrations. 

In the same way, I prefer Star Wars to leave the “everything is grey” stuff to nearly every other franchise out there, and keep doing what makes it special.


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## Zardnaar (Apr 20, 2019)

The duality between light and darkside is a major trope. Characters can be grey but I like the duality.


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## Mercurius (Apr 21, 2019)

I am not suggesting that SW does away with Light vs. Dark, but that it reimagines it as not so dualistic, not so absolute. Furthermore, what is "light" can change, and with it what is "dark" in relation to it. I'm not talking about extreme relativism, but _some_ degree of relativism, which is an intrinsic aspect of the Taoist philosophy that partially inspired Lucas's idea of the Force. 

Taoist philosophy would likely hold that "aberrations" are just extreme variations of Nature, and ultimately "natural" expressions of it. "Evil," in this sense, isn't as much what is unnatural, but what is in resistance to the flow of Nature. It is egotism - fighting against the flow (Force). In that sense it could be argued that the Jedi fall short of a "true" Taoist philosophy. The are more "in the flow" than the Sith, but still fall short. So we could imagine a Skywalker order that recognizes the necessity of both Light and Dark. If I remember correctly, we get glimmers of this from Yoda and Luke.


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 21, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> I am not suggesting that SW does away with Light vs. Dark, but that it reimagines it as not so dualistic, not so absolute. Furthermore, what is "light" can change, and with it what is "dark" in relation to it. I'm not talking about extreme relativism, but _some_ degree of relativism, which is an intrinsic aspect of the Taoist philosophy that partially inspired Lucas's idea of the Force.
> 
> Taoist philosophy would likely hold that "aberrations" are just extreme variations of Nature, and ultimately "natural" expressions of it. "Evil," in this sense, isn't as much what is unnatural, but what is in resistance to the flow of Nature. It is egotism - fighting against the flow (Force). In that sense it could be argued that the Jedi fall short of a "true" Taoist philosophy. The are more "in the flow" than the Sith, but still fall short. So we could imagine a Skywalker order that recognizes the necessity of both Light and Dark. If I remember correctly, we get glimmers of this from Yoda and Luke.




Right, that’s precisely what I don’t want in Star Wars.


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## GreyLord (Apr 21, 2019)

I'm still thinking (said this before I think) Palpatine is dead.  It's the holocron (I believe it was hinted at previously) which has some sort of connection to Palpatine (or perhaps remnants like a ghost) and it is this holocron which initially started the corruption of Kylo Ren in the first place.

It appears though, that Kylo and Rey may team up in this one from the appearances of the teaser.

If so, it wouldn't surprise me if Kylo faces of with some of the Knights of Ren or something to that effect.

I DO hope the spoilers about them simply being on a bro quest to broadcast a transmission of Luke Skywalker isn't really what the entire plot of the movie revolves around though.

I'd think with the hints it would be more about dealing with the Knights of Ren (whom we haven't really seen up to now, but they have to be somewhere and I'd imagine they would have been part of the first order as well...if Kylo tried to take charge I imagine they'd have a thing or two to say about that eventually) and the First Order with them trying to lead instead of Kylo.

No idea on my part, but I'm that theory about a broadcast sounds more like some fanmade theory than real (or at least I hope it's fan made up rather than actual).


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## MarkB (Apr 21, 2019)

I seem to recall that George Lucas has mentioned in interviews that he never saw the Force as being a balance between light and dark - the""light side" of the Force was never mentioned in either the original trilogy or the prequels.

Instead, there was "the Force" and "the dark side of the Force". When the prophecy of the Chosen One talks about bringing balance to the Force, it doesn't mean a balance between light and dark - it means removing the unbalancing influence of the Dark Side to leave only the Force.


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## Satyrn (Apr 21, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Right, that’s precisely what I don’t want in Star Wars.




Aye! I want a Star Wars where after Han Solo says "Light, dark, I'm the guy the with the blaster" he still joins the good guys.


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## pukunui (Apr 21, 2019)

[MENTION=40176]MarkB[/MENTION]: Yes, George likened the dark side to a cancer and balance meant getting rid of it, not making it even with the “light side”. That was an EU concept which, unfortunately, seems to have become the official stance under Disney. The Rebels cartoon hinted at that a number of times. And in the new movies, we got Leia in TFA telling Han she could sense that there was still “light” in their son rather than “good”. That irked me. And then Luke in TLJ tells Rey that the Force was comprised of both light and dark, and Snoke talks about how the light side has raised a champion (Rey) to counter his dark side champion (Kylo). Sigh ...


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## Mercurius (Apr 22, 2019)

MarkB said:


> I seem to recall that George Lucas has mentioned in interviews that he never saw the Force as being a balance between light and dark - the""light side" of the Force was never mentioned in either the original trilogy or the prequels.
> 
> Instead, there was "the Force" and "the dark side of the Force". When the prophecy of the Chosen One talks about bringing balance to the Force, it doesn't mean a balance between light and dark - it means removing the unbalancing influence of the Dark Side to leave only the Force.




On one hand that could be viewed as a matter of semantics. On the other, I think Lucas--or your take of him--is pointing to a crucial subtlety that aligns with Taoist philosophy. The Force (or Tao) isn't inherently "good" or "evil". It just is. "Balance" isn't as much a stasis between good and evil as it is a free flow, whereas the "Dark Side" would be the attempt to control it, to _force_ it...yes, to _force the Force_ 

Anyhow, maybe now's a good time to insert some Merlin wisdom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxXmoWkQhBI


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## Mercurius (Apr 22, 2019)

pukunui said:


> [MENTION=40176]MarkB[/MENTION]: Yes, George likened the dark side to a cancer and balance meant getting rid of it, not making it even with the “light side”. That was an EU concept which, unfortunately, seems to have become the official stance under Disney. The Rebels cartoon hinted at that a number of times. And in the new movies, we got Leia in TFA telling Han she could sense that there was still “light” in their son rather than “good”. That irked me. And then Luke in TLJ tells Rey that the Force was comprised of both light and dark, and Snoke talks about how the light side has raised a champion (Rey) to counter his dark side champion (Kylo). Sigh ...




Here's a thought. Maybe part of the deception of the Sith is that there needs to be "dark vs light", evil vs good. It is to further the duality, to push everyone into this or that side (Sort of like the current cultural-political landscape!)

On the other hand, I would think it a rather naive view to hope that a Force--and universe--without the Dark Side would ever be fully possible, at least in a permanent way. Balance might be restored for a time, but will inevitably go out of whack again. The Indian yuga cycles illustrates this quite well and it is echoed through many mythologies and is, I think, intrinsic to the human condition on Earth, at least from a mythological perspective. There's a "Golden Age" but an inevitable Fall, and then through long toil--the Hero's Journey--we rise up again and create a new Golden Age...which can only ever be impermanent and will lead to another Fall, etc.

Its sort of like the delight a child takes in doing something dangerous and scary, like a rollercoaster. When the ordeal is over there's a brief pause, which the adult parent experiences as a kind of micro-Golden Age, and then child says "Let's do it again!"


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## GreyLord (Apr 22, 2019)

The way that the sequel trilogy takes it, I think is that the idea is that there is balance between force users.

Annakin, in that way, really did finally bring balance to the force, as long as you don't look at all the extraneous material found in anything but the movies themselves.

When he did the Jedi Purge and it was Him and the Emperor on the Dark Side and Yoda and Obi-Wan on the light side.  When Luke first comes to knowledge of the Force, Obi-Wan dies.

For that while, the Force is balanced between light and dark in the new ST way of seeing things.  

It is explained in TLJ thus, that when one side rises, the other raises someone else to match it.  Thus, the idea probably is that Snoke came into being because Luke was there, and since the Force had finally been balanced, Luke being Lightside needed a Dark Side user to balance it out.  Thus, Kylo's balance would be Rey.

The idea Luke expressed in TLJ would be then, that as long as there are those on the one side of the Force, now that it is balanced, there will always be those on the other side.  His idea is that if the Jedi were to end, so would the Dark side force users.

That probably doesn't work really with what Lucas envisioned or his other material (as seen in the Clone wars and definitely what is seen in Rebels, but works with the movie continuity and seems to be what Snoke explains in TLJ).  Lucas (who has changed his mind several times as he said one thing in the past and then something different later on in various interviews) seems to have originally based the Force off a similar idea as Buddhism's relationship with Zen.  It is the idea of balance within the individual, with unbalance being excessively giving into emotion or one side of cravings or other things.  Thus, the idea that the force itself is balanced, but the Dark side is an unbalanced force.  To balance it would be to do away with the Dark side (as Vader eventually did).

BUT, under Disney I think their interpretation is more akin to the idea of balance being between the light and the dark.  Each needing the other in order to exist.  It's more of a Yin/Yang than a middle road type idea.  Thus, if only one side has a Force user, then the force will make another arise on the other side now that it is balanced.

I think that's how TLJ explains it and that's sort of the explanation also of how Snoke actually exists now.


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## pukunui (Apr 22, 2019)

[MENTION=4348]GreyLord[/MENTION]: Following that line of thinking, since Kylo killed Snoke, Luke had to sacrifice himself to maintain the balance?


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## Istbor (Apr 22, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> The way that the sequel trilogy takes it, I think is that the idea is that there is balance between force users.
> 
> Annakin, in that way, really did finally bring balance to the force, as long as you don't look at all the extraneous material found in anything but the movies themselves.
> 
> ...




It is an interesting thought, but Luke had shut himself off from the Force according to the movie. Wouldn't that tip the scales to the Dark then? Or is a Force user who shuts themselves off from the force still able to effect any balance there?


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## GreyLord (Apr 22, 2019)

Istbor said:


> It is an interesting thought, but Luke had shut himself off from the Force according to the movie. Wouldn't that tip the scales to the Dark then? Or is a Force user who shuts themselves off from the force still able to effect any balance there?




The movie wasn't really clear about it, but in Snoke's Throneroom he talks about balance.  

He states basically that as darkness rises, light rises up to meet it.  In addition, he talks that as his apprentice grows in power, his equal on the light side would also grow.

Snoke came into existence probably when Luke Skywalker already was around.  Even if Luke cuts himself off from the Force, Snoke already was around.  Snoke thus is the master.  However, as Luke had several apprentices, Snoke did not, but it balanced itself out in that he was able to turn some weak apprentices.  As they grew in power, especially Kylo, one would need to rise to balance out that equation.  This would be Rey and their equality in ability is shown in the Throne room as they battle over the lightsaber.  They are equals in the force at that point and thus, the lightsaber is split.



pukunui said:


> [MENTION=4348]GreyLord[/MENTION]: Following that line of thinking, since Kylo killed Snoke, Luke had to sacrifice himself to maintain the balance?




I think that is correct...or the Force has a way to maintain it through Lukes sacrifice.  Even if Luke does not realize it, he is being guided by the Force in this.

This probably also is an indication about what Luke was talking about in TLJ.  This is that if there is to be balance they cannot be on the side of light or dark, but in the middle.  Someone who can use emotion and have it influence them, but not necessarily that of fear, anger and hatred.  They could use it like Luke did in Return of the Jedi with love, compassion, and hope.  What will these new Jedi be called?  

If they could be balanced between light and dark they would be neither Jedi, Sith, or even light side user or Dark side users.  They'd be something new.

In the next movie, if the Knights of Ren are in it (and the poster indicates they are) by necessity something would need to balance it out, such as one of them joining Rey, Rey becoming even more powerful than all of them, or another light side user rising up.  I'm thinking one of them may turn and join the light side, or all but one will be killed off.


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 22, 2019)

MarkB said:


> I seem to recall that George Lucas has mentioned in interviews that he never saw the Force as being a balance between light and dark - the""light side" of the Force was never mentioned in either the original trilogy or the prequels.
> 
> Instead, there was "the Force" and "the dark side of the Force". When the prophecy of the Chosen One talks about bringing balance to the Force, it doesn't mean a balance between light and dark - it means removing the unbalancing influence of the Dark Side to leave only the Force.



Exactly. If TRS shows us that the new canon is that “balance” means a dualistic balance between light and dark, that’s fine. I won’t be particularly interested in the franchise going forward, but I can just enjoy the old stuff and ignore Disney SW as advanced fanfic. 



Satyrn said:


> Aye! I want a Star Wars where after Han Solo says "Light, dark, I'm the guy the with the blaster" he still joins the good guys.




Yep. The good guys are good, and defeating the evil emperor brings balance to the force. That’s Star Wars.


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## pukunui (Apr 23, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> In the next movie, if the Knights of Ren are in it (and the poster indicates they are) by necessity something would need to balance it out, such as one of them joining Rey, Rey becoming even more powerful than all of them, or another light side user rising up.  I'm thinking one of them may turn and join the light side, or all but one will be killed off.



As I mentioned upthread, I think that guy that Kylo is seen taking down with his lightsaber in the red-tinged forest in the teaser trailer is one of the Knights of Ren.


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## GreyLord (May 1, 2019)

So, new rumors have come up (and they are just that...rumors) which are fueling some speculation.  Rumor that I heard in Italics, my thoughts and hypothesizing on it not in italics.


Spoiler



_The idea is that Palpatine somehow extended his life by having his spirit/soul or whatever it is to be able to leap between bodies._ Thus, Snoke was actually a possessed creature that was Palpatine?

This could make sense if you look at Return of the Jedi. There were Imperial Nobility or Nobles that were visiting with the Emperor that sort of resembled Snoke.  If he was an imperial noble that just was close enough at the time of the Emperor's death...it could be possible the Emperor made the leap...or maybe there is another mechanism.

_Anyways, the Rumor goes that Matt Smith may be playing a Dark Figure which is basically a character possessed/controlled by the deceased Emperor's spirit.  Thus, he has to be defeated.

Kylo and Rey join up to defeat Matt Smith's character. _Thus more hypothesizing.  It could be that this was Kylo's plan from the start...to destroy the Emperor once and for all...which is what he meant by finish what his Grandfather started.  However, to figure out how to get close to the Emperor in order to figure out how to do it meant that he had to become what he was.  He was always good, but he had to show that he was part of the Dark Side to enable himself the power to destroy the Emperor. 

He failed with Snoke and now he allies with Rey in order to try to take down the Emperor for good. 

_The Rumor continues...He and Rey kill Matt Smith's character but then the Emperor jumps to Kylo where he holds the Emperor and Rey kills him (perhaps the Emperor can only enter someone who is engulfed with the Dark side because apparently the Emperor does not jump to Rey then) thus killing the Emperor for good..._

But Kylo is not really dead, but he is dead (the rumor is kind of confusing on that).



Of course, this is all rumors and speculation, but I found it interesting enough to mention.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 1, 2019)

I wonder if it wouldn't be better to put those rumors into spoiler tags, since if they are true, they are spoilers. We won't know until its out, I suppose, but I can imagine some people don't want to be that close to the truth. On the other hand, they probably should avoid watching Trailers, too.
[sblock]
I don't love it, but it might be something to create a bit of a surprise.
I think it would only really be interesting if Rey were to hold the Emperor's soul. Rey has lost no fight against Kylo so far, why should we expect it to be different? Unless the situation will not be a final fight between the two. 
But that would be a bit of a bummer, killing of the heroine in the last episode of the trilogy. (Plus "politically" very unfortunate.)
[/sblock]


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## GreyLord (May 1, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I wonder if it wouldn't be better to put those rumors into spoiler tags, since if they are true, they are spoilers. We won't know until its out, I suppose, but I can imagine some people don't want to be that close to the truth. On the other hand, they probably should avoid watching Trailers, too.
> [sblock]
> I don't love it, but it might be something to create a bit of a surprise.
> I think it would only really be interesting if Rey were to hold the Emperor's soul. Rey has lost no fight against Kylo so far, why should we expect it to be different? Unless the situation will not be a final fight between the two.
> ...




Sure.  It is just rumors and such (so high chance it's wrong) but , it's not hard just to put spoiler tags around it just in case.

I went above and edited my post so that the rumors and speculation are now in a spoiler box.


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## Morrus (May 1, 2019)

sblock isn’t supported by Tapatalk, unfortunately.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 5, 2019)

Morrus said:


> sblock isn’t supported by Tapatalk, unfortunately.




Will the markup at least appear to warn people, or is it silently hidden, with the text appearing without any hitns it might be in a tag? And why doesn't Tapatalk support something like that? Are the developers not using their own software to read message boards, spoiler tags are not exactly uncommon in discussions? Or is SBLOCk some unusal special syntax only used by 1 % of vbulletin forums because vBulletin still hasn't standardized its tags? Don't we have a similar problem with quote tags? Or is it EN Worlds fault for not using standard tags?


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## Morrus (May 5, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Will the markup at least appear to warn people, or is it silently hidden, with the text appearing without any hitns it might be in a tag? And why doesn't Tapatalk support something like that? Are the developers not using their own software to read message boards, spoiler tags are not exactly uncommon in discussions? Or is SBLOCk some unusal special syntax only used by 1 % of vbulletin forums because vBulletin still hasn't standardized its tags? Don't we have a similar problem with quote tags? Or is it EN Worlds fault for not using standard tags?




Yes, no, you’d have to ask them, don’t know, it’s a custom tag, don’t know - do we?, I think “spoiler” works?


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## jonesy (May 5, 2019)

The Landlady is Rey's mother, confirmed?


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## variant (May 10, 2019)

How the hell can you have Rise of Skywalker when there's no damn Skywalker in it? Is Kylo secretly Luke's son adopted by Han and Leia or something? Because it would far stupider to have Rey be a Skywalker at this point.


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## MarkB (May 10, 2019)

variant said:


> How the hell can you have Rise of Skywalker when there's no damn Skywalker in it? Is Kylo secretly Luke's son adopted by Han and Leia or something? Because it would far stupider to have Rey be a Skywalker at this point.




Well, Kylo is technically the son of a Skywalker, Leia's adoptive surname notwithstanding. And just because Luke is dead, that doesn't mean he won't be participating in this movie.


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## variant (May 10, 2019)

MarkB said:


> Well, Kylo is technically the son of a Skywalker, Leia's adoptive surname notwithstanding. And just because Luke is dead, that doesn't mean he won't be participating in this movie.




It's end of the Skywalker line though with Luke being dead and having no children. Even if he technically has Skywalker blood, that still doesn't make him a Skywalker. There will never be another person with the last name Skywalker.


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## MarkB (May 10, 2019)

variant said:


> It's end of the Skywalker line though with Luke being dead and having no children. Even if he technically has Skywalker blood, that still doesn't make him a Skywalker. There will never be another person with the last name Skywalker.




You make it sound like that's important for some reason.


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## tglassy (May 10, 2019)

Haven't read the whole thread, but the few theories I've heard are that A) Luke does have children, either Rey or someone else.  B) The Rise of Skywalker refers to Luke's rising again.  C)  Kylo Ren is redeemed somehow.  D) Skywalker is the new title for Jedi, and Rey is the first one.  

I admit I like that last one, but every other trilogy had a "The" in front of it.  Revenge of "THE" Sit".  Return of "THE" Jedi.  This is just "Rise of Skywalker", seeming to refer to a person rather than a group of some kind.  However, B seems most likely, as apparently the translation of the title in other languages comes out "Skywalker Resurrected".  But that could be a language thing.

I've heard thought that Rey is Palpatine's grandchild, which makes a fantastic image in my mind of Palpatine being a red Force Ghost, hovering behind the grandson of Anakin Skywalker, and Luke being a Force Ghost hovering behind the granddaughter of Palpatine, and the final epic battle is between Kylo and Rey, and between Luke and Palpatine.  I'd love that symmetry , and Rey finding out she is not decended from some famous jedi, but from an evil beyond her comprehension, would suitably defy the trope.


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