# Getting into PDF seller dungeon tiles



## grickherder (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm thinking of getting into PDF dungeon tiles.  Like the ones SkeletonKey makes.

What I'm wondering is what's the best way to print them off?  Do you print with a higher end printer settings on photopaper, or do they look fine on copy paper?  How many do you get out of an ink cartride?

Anyone recommend any particular PDFs or Publishers?


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## tanj (Apr 11, 2009)

The Official WorldWorks Games Store!, Exceeding Your Expectations One Game at a Time
DungeonLinX 2.5-D: Lair of the Dragon God [wwgdlxlotdg] - $16.99 : The Official WorldWorks Games Store!, Exceeding Your Expectations One Game at a Time

They have great paper craft.

I use a color laser printer.

The World Works forum would also be a good place to ask.

WorldWorksGames :: Index


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Apr 11, 2009)

We're running a sale right now, and here is a link to a free sampler pack:

RPGNow.com - Fat Dragon Games - Fat Dragon Games Sampler Pack

We offer 2D, 2D/3D combos, and fully 3D terrain sets.


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## grickherder (Apr 12, 2009)

I must have been living in a cave, because this is the first time I have seen World Works or Fat Dragon.

Wow.  It looks pretty hard to build that stuff.


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## fissionessence (Apr 12, 2009)

grickherder said:


> I must have been living in a cave, because this is the first time I have seen World Works or Fat Dragon.
> 
> Wow.  It looks pretty hard to build that stuff.




I recently bought Fat Dragon's EZ Dungeons, and it's the first time I've done anything like that (paper modeling). It's not hard. It's _expensive_, as I don't have a color printer, and I have to get pages printed at Kinkos, etc., but no, not hard. Time consuming . . . and expensive. But not hard. 

The hardest part is finding out which pages to print, as they don't include any kind of beginners' guide of what pages to use to build what; it's just assumed you can figure it out, I guess :-\

~


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## jdrakeh (Apr 12, 2009)

fissionessence said:


> The hardest part is finding out which pages to print, as they don't include any kind of beginners' guide of what pages to use to build what; it's just assumed you can figure it out, I guess :-




This is something that many of the WorldWorks sets _do_ contain. It's really handy.


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Apr 12, 2009)

fissionessence said:


> The hardest part is finding out which pages to print, as they don't include any kind of beginners' guide of what pages to use to build what; it's just assumed you can figure it out, I guess :-
> 
> ~




Actually, in the new Deluxe Edition there is a stand-alone guide with color layouts showing how to create a multitude of room designs.


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## Novem5er (Apr 12, 2009)

I've been building and using the Fat Dragon EZ Dungeon tiles (3d) for about 2 months now.

I love them.

This is my first time making 3d cardstock terrain and I've found it to be pretty easy. All the pieces have guide lines for where to cut and where to score, and the rest is just folding and gluing.

If you have your own color printer, then it isn't that expensive either. Most of the pieces are shades of gray with some really subtle color that gives the "stones" some variance. The textures look great and I've been surprised at how long my color ink cartridge has lasted.

I originally just used the wall pieces with slimmed down based to stack on top of my official WotC Dungeon Tiles... but I'm considering doing what FTG suggests and mounting everything on foam core. I'm just trying to use everything I have at my disposal and am still trying to figure out the best way 

My only complaint (which is not a complaint at all)... I want more dungeon dressing! I love the barrels, crates, and chests that come with the pack, but I could really use some more 3D terrain 

Maybe Fat Dragon could work on some thematic item packs, so we could drop in some dressings into our existing dungeons to really change them up.

I'd buy


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Apr 12, 2009)

Novem5er said:


> Maybe Fat Dragon could work on some thematic item packs, so we could drop in some dressings into our existing dungeons to really change them up.
> 
> I'd buy




LOL- this is exactly why we re-launched the E-Z Dungeons line last month. We have a bunch of small expansion packs like torture rooms, crypts, armories, etc. that you can use to customize the new Deluxe Edition however you want. We're taking the 'A la carte' approach to dungeon terrain with this new series. This also enables us to produce some product-specific expansions for our publishing partners that allow you to customize what you already own without re-inventing the wheel so to speak.


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## Novem5er (Apr 12, 2009)

FATDRAGONGAMES said:


> LOL- this is exactly why we re-launched the E-Z Dungeons line last month. We have a bunch of small expansion packs like torture rooms, crypts, armories, etc. that you can use to customize the new Deluxe Edition however you want. We're taking the 'A la carte' approach to dungeon terrain with this new series. This also enables us to produce some product-specific expansions for our publishing partners that allow you to customize what you already own without re-inventing the wheel so to speak.




Sounds great! I assume that these expansion packs haven't been released yet? I haven't found them on your website, so I'll keep checking back.

My biggest problem running any dungeon encounter (using 3d terrain or not) is to make the rooms feel alive. 4e puts such an emphasis on using terrain in encounter design, I've been trying more to make memorable encounters. I've got 3d walls now (and crates, and barrels, and rubble), but now I need to make the other stuff stand out. I'm glad you're working on it!

One suggestion: I'd like to see some 3d terrain features that focus on the types of terrain in the 4e DMG:


Difficult (you've already got rubble)
Blocking (you've got columns, maybe large furniture)
Challenging (idk... mud, slime, ice, skulls)
Hindering (pits, fire, water)
Obscured (3D fog boxes?)
Cover (more furniture, low walls, etc)
I think also "Sets" based upon different monster races would be great:


goblin, orc, gnoll - piles of skulls, demon idols, filthy bed sacks, rubbish piles
drow - spider statues, alters, arches, webs
dwarves - lots of runes, stone tables, etc
Eladrin/fey - lots of script, magic braziers, fountains
Even some different "wall hangings" would be great... just decorations you could fold over existing EZ walls.

Just some ideas!


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Apr 12, 2009)

We've got a number of this things already. The pits, fire and water traps are in our newest set:






Available on the ENworld PDF store now:
EN World PDF Store - Fat Dragon Games - E-Z DUNGEONS: Mechanical Traps


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## Zaukrie (Apr 12, 2009)

For 2D, skeletonkleygames can't be beat for their sheer number and versatility of available tiles.

For 3D, I own both fatdragongames and worldworks stuff. I find the fatdragongames to be better looking, but others feel the other way.

For tiles, I recommend mounting them on foamcore for sure. Much easier to use that way.

The biggest issue with any 3D terrain is the height of the walls - sometimes it is hard to see minis behind stuff. You can play around with making the walls shorter, but it isn't easy.

One way around that is to print the walls on plain paper, and glue it to foamcore or other material, and have it the height you want. That does work. For my games, if it isn't obvious if the wall goes to the ceiling or not, I just tell the players.

0one games also has nice 2D tiles, and there are hundreds of free tiles on the web, if you look around.


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## sjmiller (Apr 12, 2009)

I print my Skeleton Key games tiles on 110 lb card stock. When I cut the pages out I label the back of each one with the tile number from the index page of each set. I also print out each index page and have them in a book. This makes it easy to reference them. I dis start a project of cutting out the smaller images on the index pages and labeling them. That way I can do a mini layout of the map I want, then just grab the larger version of the tiles I used.

It's been about a year since I could afford to buy tiles, but I also seem to remember that SKG has a tile layout program you can get too.


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## fissionessence (Apr 12, 2009)

FATDRAGONGAMES said:


> Actually, in the new Deluxe Edition there is a stand-alone guide with color layouts showing how to create a multitude of room designs.




Are you talking about the pages that have like "4x4 corner" next to "8x8 corner", etc., telling you which overall pieces you need to build different styles of room? Those are really handy, but that's not what I'm talking about. 

I wanted something that told me exactly which pages to print, and what would come out of them. I assumed it was mostly self-explanatory, but after my first visit to Office Max, I found myself at home wondering how I was supposed to do anything with the wall pieces I had, not really matching the floor pieces from the same directory that seemed to suggest they went together. The floor pieces were too narrow to match any of those guides you were talking about.

I needed something to tell me "these floor pieces are for walls in the hallway, for walls of a room, you need these other floor pieces." Maybe I was just doing it wrong, but then again, a guide could have prevented that.

~


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## noffham (Apr 12, 2009)

There are a variety of walls in the Fat Dragon models. The straight runs are for corridors and the long walls of rooms. They just butt up to segments of floor to make hallways or rooms. (THere is a little extra room on the floors of the wall segments to make moving minis a little easier).  The corner pieces are for turns in hallways or room corners. These are multiple-square units, and are highlighted in the how-to you mention (4x4 here, etc). 

Some people leave the walls and corners, etc. as individual parts for maximum flexibility and others mount them permanently on larger bases to make set-piece rooms and the like. (So, for example, you could take a 4 inch wall segment and base it on the "normal" wall base which is 4 squares long to but against a hallway or room base; or you can just mount 2 on a large, say 8x8 square base; as an outer wall segment for one large room piece).

I've found the Fat Dragon models easy to build and quite imaginative. There is a great group on their forums who will help answer your questions, so stop over there. I've gotten several good ideas and fan modifications from there.


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Apr 12, 2009)

fissionessence said:


> I needed something to tell me "these floor pieces are for walls in the hallway, for walls of a room, you need these other floor pieces." Maybe I was just doing it wrong, but then again, a guide could have prevented that.
> 
> ~





Sorry, misunderstood what you were asking for (a newborn and three hours sleep a night have me pretty foggy right now! )

We didn't consider that approach as the pieces are really intended to be mix-n-match, but I do see your point. It's a great idea and we'll definitely try and incorporate it into our future releases!


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## monster_slayer (Apr 13, 2009)

I have some of all three companies mentioned above, Fat Dragon Games, Skeleton Key and Worldworks and have been doing cardstock modeling for years.  They all have their place at my table, I tend to play more miniature games with my stuff, so I use more of the FDG & WWG stuff.  The FDG stuff is really easy to put together and inexpensive if you have your own printer.  The WWG stuff is not any harder to put together, but I would not suggest it for first timers, not a knock, just an observation.  My 13 year old son helps build alot of my terrain (slave labor is cheap) and he has no peoblems with the FDG stuff, but we are in the middle of The Maiden from WWG and he has had a few issues with it.  I would definately recommend Fat Dragon Games to get you going, their price, quality and quantity of stuff you get can't be beat, after you get going you can make your own decisions as to which one suits you the best.

Hope that helps some.


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## Wereserpent (Apr 13, 2009)

Hehe, those FDG tiles look pretty cool. If I ever have the money I will look into them.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 13, 2009)

The Fat Dragon Games stuff looks awesome. 

I use the Skeleton Key tiles a lot.  I can make my dungeons and such over at the Tile Organizer at RPGObjects.com.  (The site looks down now... great...)

But then I print out only what I need (I have most all his tilesets.)  If I don't have cardstock available, I print on regular paper, cut it out and gluestick it to a 22" x 28" posterboard.  I can make whole rooms and sections this way, and then cut the larger rooms into easily transported groups.  Sometimes I only print out the encounter areas and also have the small printout from the Tile Organizer to show them the interim areas, hallways, etc.


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## filthgrinder (Apr 13, 2009)

monster_slayer said:


> I have some of all three companies mentioned above, Fat Dragon Games, Skeleton Key and Worldworks and have been doing cardstock modeling for years. They all have their place at my table, I tend to play more miniature games with my stuff, so I use more of the FDG & WWG stuff. The FDG stuff is really easy to put together and inexpensive if you have your own printer. The WWG stuff is not any harder to put together, but I would not suggest it for first timers, not a knock, just an observation. My 13 year old son helps build alot of my terrain (slave labor is cheap) and he has no peoblems with the FDG stuff, but we are in the middle of The Maiden from WWG and he has had a few issues with it. I would definately recommend Fat Dragon Games to get you going, their price, quality and quantity of stuff you get can't be beat, after you get going you can make your own decisions as to which one suits you the best.




I definitely agree. I have some FDG and WWG stuff, and you pretty much nailed it. IF you are just starting out, definitely go with Fat Dragon Games. There stuff is clean, simple, and great. It's easy to figure out, easy to put together, looks great, and definitely adds alot.

The WWG stuff is pretty good. I think some of the texturing is better in some spots. I think their best stuff are there "set pieces", like the Thoumont's magic shop and the maiden. Really detailed and intricate. Looks real impressive when it's assembled, but not really versatile without alot of work "kitbashing" the stuff. Their "mix and match" utility sets are good, but I'd have to go with Fat Dragon for the most utility stuff.

To clarify, I'm currently using the WWG "Thoumont's Rare Tomes" magic shop as the "headquarters" for my party. However, they just entered a goblin controlled dungeons, and I'm using the FDG EZ-Dungeons for all the dungeon work. However, I prefer the WWG caves style for the cave sections. Then again, I also use the FDG Dragon Tiles: Taverns. So I'm all over the place.

So, typically, I find the Fat Dragon Games products to be overall simplier and easier, while still looking great. Also, price wise, they are less expensive. I mean, that trap pack, $3.60! I'm picking up that.

However, once you get into it a bit, you should check out World Works Games for some good "set pieces" and some alternate tiles and designs. Also, they are doing stuff for the upcoming Pathfinder adventure path, so if you are going to run that, check it out. I'm not doing Pathfinder (I'm a 4E man myself), but I'm probably going to pick it up since I think it looks like a nice "set piece" dungeon I can re-purpose.


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## filthgrinder (Apr 13, 2009)

Novem5er said:


> One suggestion: I'd like to see some 3d terrain features that focus on the types of terrain in the 4e DMG:
> 
> Obscured (3D fog boxes?)




I want to definitely say YES! to that. My party currently has a Drow, with the Dragon Magazine article feat for re-active darkness. Meaning, when hit, he can use the Globe of darkness encounter power as an immediate reaction. He does it, "ALOT". (It's now a running gag, "ooh, you made me ink!"). We first started using poker chips to mark out the squares of darkness. We then created a 3x3 tile section to slide under. I took the Fat Dragon Games "gelatinous cube" model from the "Tombs and Horrors" set, brought it into photoshop, painted it black, and increased the size from 2x2 to 3x3. I made sure to cut out the bottom so I can drop it over the minis and map. I kinda screwed it up a bit, so I had to build it in pieces. However, we are now using that. So, I'd like to see more of these types of things. A cloud of daggers 1 square column with empty bottom to drop in place.




Novem5er said:


> dwarves - lots of runes, stone tables, etc




Check out FDG's "Dungeons of the Dwarf Lords" Dragon Tiles set. That has alot of dwarven flavored goodness.


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## skinnydwarf (Apr 13, 2009)

FATDRAGONGAMES said:


> Actually, in the new Deluxe Edition there is a stand-alone guide with color layouts showing how to create a multitude of room designs.




I haven't tried the WorldWorks stuff, but I've been loving Fat Dragons' E-Z Dungeons.  The WorldWorks dungeon pieces are just too "busy" for my taste.  Some of their nondungeon stuff looks pretty neat, though.  I got E-Z Dungeons Deluxe a week or two ago, and I've made several pieces so far.  It hasn't been too expensive, mostly because I already had a color printer and a large color ink cartridge, to save on the unit price.  The pieces are super easy to put together, and look great.  My girlfriend is even getting into it.  So, thanks Fat Dragon for putting out E-Z Dungeons Deluxe, it's great.  And those new traps make the evil DM inside me smile.  And as we all know, if the DM smiles, it's already too late...

My only problem has been finding a decent glue.  The gluepens I got from Staples are ok, but I'm sure there is something out there better.  With the pen I have now, I have to put down a non trivial amount of glue to get it to stay.  Is there a particular brand anyone can recommend?


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## nnms (Apr 13, 2009)

fissionessence said:


> It's not hard. It's _expensive_, as I don't have a color printer, and I have to get pages printed at Kinkos, etc., but no, not hard.




While this may or may not be a feasible recommendation, I'd recommend getting a cheap inkjet printer that works well with manually refilling the ink cartridge.  It'll really cut down the costs involved compared to spending 50 cents and up per colour page at a print shop.



skinnydwarf said:


> The WorldWorks dungeon pieces are just too "busy" for my taste.




I agree.  They're also very stylized for a particular feel.  I don't know how to describe it, but they feel like they're specific and non-generic.  What I mean is that they give off a certain feel rather than being neutral/generic.  And if that feel doesn't match your in-game description, they can counter the vibe/move you're trying to give.  I don't know if I'm making any sense.  They're really nice though.  And if they vibe/feel does match what you're going for then, well, awesome!



Zaukrie said:


> For tiles, I recommend mounting them on foamcore for sure. Much easier to use that way.




What I use are cheap vinyl adhesive floor tiles.  They are like 4 or 5 for a dollar at home depot or whatever.  I print the tile on regular white paper, take off the adhesive backing of the floor tile and stick it on the part of the tile that would normally go down on the sub-floor.  Then I carefully cut everything with a pair of utility/kitchen scissors.  This is obviously for the tiles and not walls and whatnot-- though I'm sure you could make that work too.



Novem5er said:


> Fat Dragon ...I love them.




I am so happy my friend sent me the link to this thread.  I had to sign up for Enworld just to post here about it.  I've done some WorldWorks stuff, SkeletonKey stuff and a bunch of free online stuff.  This is the first time I've seen Fat Dragon's stuff and I'm blown away.

-- Matt


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## Mark (Apr 13, 2009)

Welcome to EN World! 




nnms said:


> What I use are cheap vinyl adhesive floor tiles.





Do you notice any warping with the floor tiles?


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## nnms (Apr 13, 2009)

Mark said:


> Welcome to EN World!




Thanks!



> Do you notice any warping with the floor tiles?




Warping isn't quite right, but certainly flexing.  They are vinyl, which means they are semi-flexible.  For a while I was transporting my tiles in a cheap plastic bag.  The pressure of the bag was enough to flex the tiles.  So I had to pull them out and gently bend them back the other way.  Since then I've been transporting them in a file folder case and have had no issues.


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## Kris (Apr 13, 2009)

Zaukrie said:


> ...and there are hundreds of free tiles on the web, if you look around.




That is true enough.

I'm not going to say that they are as good, as flexible, or as detailed as some of the stuff you can buy, but for folks thinking of just testing things out before jumping in with both feet, then they might be good to experiment with before parting with any cash.

Some generic 2D tiles that I have drawn myself are available on this page of my website:
PDF Dungeon Tiles

...but there is other stuff out there.



nnms said:


> While this may or may not be a feasible recommendation, I'd recommend getting a cheap inkjet printer that works well with manually refilling the ink cartridge.



Having an ink cartridge that you can refill without much hassle is a definite bonus for these kind of things


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## Novem5er (Apr 13, 2009)

Those FDG mechanical traps look exactly like what I was looking for... and at a reasonable price, too. I'll be sure to pick some up soon.

Regarding glue, I've been using just a dab of superglue on each of the tabs. There is actually a few seconds of "give" before it really starts to bond, so I've been able to make last second adjustments. For times that I'm off, I can usually use my hobby knife to just slide in and cut the glued paper and then reglue... since I'm just using a dab, it isn't that bad to cut and fix.


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Apr 13, 2009)

nnms said:


> What I use are cheap vinyl adhesive floor tiles.  They are like 4 or 5 for a dollar at home depot or whatever.  I print the tile on regular white paper, take off the adhesive backing of the floor tile and stick it on the part of the tile that would normally go down on the sub-floor.




I gotta try this- wonderful idea!


As for glues, UHU makes a scrapbooking glue pen that works good you can pick up at Wal Mart. Once of our customers just e-mailed me that Elmers is making a non-wrinkle glue pen too, but I have yet to try this. I actually use Elmers white glue (VERY sparingly) and I like Eileen's Craft Glue (it's white school glue for crafting, but it has about half the water content so it doesn't warp as much.)


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Apr 13, 2009)

nnms said:


> They're really nice though.  And if they vibe/feel does match what you're going for then, well, awesome!




I think this is the best part of having so many good card model manufacturers out there- we each bring our own unique style to the product which means the customer has a far better chance finding a set that fits their particular needs. More choices for the customer is always a good thing, and there is no reason not to mix and match the available sets out there.


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## nnms (Apr 14, 2009)

FATDRAGONGAMES said:


> I think this is the best part of having so many good card model manufacturers out there- we each bring our own unique style to the product which means the customer has a far better chance finding a set that fits their particular needs. More choices for the customer is always a good thing, and there is no reason not to mix and match the available sets out there.




Absolutely.  Might I ask for a product recommendation?  I want to go with a 2D dungeon solution with 3D doors, furniture, etc.,.  I don't want to have walls on every room.  What would be the best Fat Dragon product to go with?



Kris said:


> Having an ink cartridge that you can refill without much hassle is a definite bonus for these kind of things




Definitely.  Getting a good quality refill kit (like Image Specialist/MIS/Precision Colors) drives the cost per page down to about a tenth of buying the official cartridges at full retail.  Those cartridges with print heads attached right on them will only last 5-10 refills, but it's great refilling them for $1 a shot and only having to buy new replacement ones every 5-10 fills.


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Apr 14, 2009)

nnms said:


> Absolutely.  Might I ask for a product recommendation?  I want to go with a 2D dungeon solution with 3D doors, furniture, etc.,.  I don't want to have walls on every room.  What would be the best Fat Dragon product to go with?
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely.  Getting a good quality refill kit (like Image Specialist/MIS/Precision Colors) drives the cost per page down to about a tenth of buying the official cartridges at full retail.  Those cartridges with print heads attached right on them will only last 5-10 refills, but it's great refilling them for $1 a shot and only having to buy new replacement ones every 5-10 fills.




Dragon Tiles Dungeon Set 1 (and maybe 2) should do it.


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## kitsune9 (Apr 14, 2009)

grickherder said:


> I'm thinking of getting into PDF dungeon tiles.  Like the ones SkeletonKey makes.
> 
> What I'm wondering is what's the best way to print them off?  Do you print with a higher end printer settings on photopaper, or do they look fine on copy paper?  How many do you get out of an ink cartride?
> 
> Anyone recommend any particular PDFs or Publishers?




I know when I had inkjet printers, it killed a cartridge just to run a complete set so in addition to paying $15 for the pdf, it was costing me $48 for the color and black/white ink cartridges. I have a color laser printer, but haven't gotten around to testing it yet. I'm not really sure that even that would be cost-effective as the four catridges for the laser printer are super expensive (almost the cost of the printer itself for all four) so I unless I get several hundred sets, even I find it hard to reallly justify the cost.


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## nnms (Apr 14, 2009)

kitsune9 said:


> I know when I had inkjet printers, it killed a cartridge just to run a complete set so in addition to paying $15 for the pdf, it was costing me $48 for the color and black/white ink cartridges.




I would highly recommend that anyone thinking about getting into printing colour PDFs, to figure out a cost per page beforehand.  Then look into aftermark ink cartridges and refill kits.  For example, a printer at the office (HP 6-something) has cartridges that sell for $40 a piece.  The local wal-mart refills them for $10.  The only thing we use that printer for is printing full colour product brochures.  We get about 50 8.5x11 pages (colour printing on the whole page) per refill.  So that's 20 cents a page.

The local print shops charge about 50 cents a page for colour laser printing.  Anything over that and I wouldn't bother with at home printing.

On the other hand, many Canon printers can be easily refilled numerous times.  The eBay seller I get my refill kits from comes to $25 shipped for enough ink for 35-40 refills.  The refills last about half as long as the new ones, but wow does it save money.


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## fissionessence (Apr 14, 2009)

nnms said:


> The local print shops charge about 50 cents a page for colour laser printing.  Anything over that and I wouldn't bother with at home printing.




$.50? One color page on 80lb paper costs me $1.16-$1.25. This is at Kinkos or Office Max. What am I doing wrong here?

~


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## jdrakeh (Apr 14, 2009)

fissionessence said:


> $.50? One color page on 80lb paper costs me $1.16-$1.25. This is at Kinkos or Office Max. What am I doing wrong here?




Taking your business to a nationwide chain of stores. Locally owned and operated printers (or regional chains) typically have better deals for the consumer than any nationwide chain will. 

I patronize a place locally that charges me something like $.24 for a one-sided color print on 65 lb. photo gloss card stock. And roughly $.06 per side for double-sided black and white prints on 20 lb. bond paper. 

As you can imagine, I print a lot of the PDFs that I purchase


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## nnms (Apr 14, 2009)

fissionessence said:


> $.50? One color page on 80lb paper costs me $1.16-$1.25. This is at Kinkos or Office Max. What am I doing wrong here?




I'm in Canada.  Usually that means things are more expensive rather than less.  So I'm not sure.

Have you shopped around?  I've read on forums of people getting colour printing at a UPS Store for 35 cents a page.  I think they are independent franchises though, so you'll probably want to give them a call and find out by location.

Perhaps local copy centres have a better rate?


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## Mark (Apr 14, 2009)

nnms said:


> I've read on forums of people getting colour printing at a UPS Store for 35 cents a page.  I think they are independent franchises though, so you'll probably want to give them a call and find out by location.
> 
> Perhaps local copy centres have a better rate?





Both true for me.  The local UPS Store has 35 cents a copy and is owned by a guy who also owns the UPS Store in the next twon over, as well.  There is a small print shop nearby, too, that has limited hours of operation but does full color for 50 cents a page.  I have found that most of the Kinkos services can be found elsewhere for less.


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## Master01 (Apr 14, 2009)

Hey all. 

Speaking about tiles, Øone Games offer a different approach to the "2D tiles" thing. 

Most of our products allow a certain degree of customization before printing. In  Øone' Black & White line , for example you can choose which elements of the tile should appear in you customized tile (you can alter the wall filling, the type of grid, the furniture, and so on).

here's a link to a Free product n this line: Medusa Hideout

If you feel creative you can even use our  Tile Designer line, a series of PDFs allowing you to design your own tiles and print them. These are not programs, and you can't save your work (except by saving your screen). They are designed to make tiles and print them on the fly.

Here's a link to a free demo Wilderness Tile Designer Demo


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## fissionessence (Apr 14, 2009)

Thanks for the tips, guys! I just found a local print shop and got some stuff for $.30/page! And they had heavier paper than Kinkos/Office Max! Also, since we were talking about it, I asked . . . they can print up to 15x19in pages. In color, one page that size would be $.55! I forgot to ask if they could then laminate that page, but I'm pretty excited about everything after getting gouged at the previous stores I went to.

~


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## Mark (Apr 15, 2009)

fissionessence said:


> Thanks for the tips, guys! I just found a local print shop and got some stuff for $.30/page! And they had heavier paper than Kinkos/Office Max! Also, since we were talking about it, I asked . . . they can print up to 15x19in pages. In color, one page that size would be $.55! I forgot to ask if they could then laminate that page, but I'm pretty excited about everything after getting gouged at the previous stores I went to.
> 
> ~





That's great!  Glad it worked out for you.  I posted this in another thread but your plans for how to use the things have me thinking it is worth posting this info on how I handle poster-sized or battlemaps here, too.




Mark said:


> I split up maps into standard page sizes, print them out at the least expensive local place that has a color printer (currently the UPS Store does $0.35 per full color page), glue stick the pages to an appropriately size piece of foam board, then cover it all with lamination sheets to preserve and protect and allow me to use wet erase markers on them.  The back can be scored in places to allow them to fold up well enough.  The overall cost of materials is between $5 and $10 US.
> 
> Here's some photos of a couple of these I did for a Free RPG Day with Paizo maps (that I even had to scan and enlarge to make it happen) -
> 
> 06-2008 Free RPG Day - a set on Flickr


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## Siran Dunmorgan (Apr 15, 2009)

I have pretty much the entire Fat Dragon "Dragon Tiles" line, and a fair number  of E-Z Dungeons and E-Z Terrain lines.  I've also got some of the Vyllage-on-the-Cheep sets, the WorldWorks Arena, and the Papermodel Civilizations desert sets.

So far, probably not too different from what the rest of you have done or are planning to do.

However, there are some additional tricks.  For example, one of my kids had an art project for school where she was supposed to make a ceremonial gateway, similar to the Ishtar Gate of Babylon.

Rather than starting from a shoebox, as recommended in her school assignment, we used the gate, towers, and wall models from the WorldWorks ArenaWorks set.

We printed them to 'flat' PDF with PDFCreator—Inkscape won't read the embedded images directly in the WorldWorks PDFs—then modified the designs and textures in Inkscape, adding vines, leaves and cracks to create an 'older' look, and adding bas-relief animal designs and inscriptions along the walls.

After the edits, we printed the models, built them, and had a completely customized ceremonial gate that was something of the belle of the ball among the modified shoe- and cereal boxes that were turned in by the rest of her class.

I've used this technique—editing in Inkscape—to modify several tiles, e.g. putting a tan-colored wash over a set when it's supposed to be a sandy floor rather than rock, or adding images for light sources, magical effects, and whatnot.  I have a swamp built from Fat Dragon's E-Z Terrain Forest & Ruins set, for example, adding more water features, darkening the overall texture, and adding a few hanging vines from strips of paper.

Cardstock models have really helped to encourage my kids to participate in building out the environments and then play in them.  I strongly encourage this aspect of the hobby.

—Siran Dunmorgan

Links:

PDFCreator – Free program to allow any program (including Acrobat Reader) to print to PDF.

Inkscape – Free vector graphics program that can import and edit single pages of PDF files.


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## alleynbard (Apr 15, 2009)

Kris said:


> Some generic 2D tiles that I have drawn myself are available on this page of my website:
> PDF Dungeon Tiles
> 
> ...but there is other stuff out there.




Those are some nice tiles.  Very nice indeed.



I am also a huge fan of Empty Room Studios. They have two basic dungeons and a few themed locations as well.  Good stuff.

Empty Room Studios


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## nnms (Apr 15, 2009)

I like some of the tiles at dungeoneering.net as well.



Mark said:


> I split up maps into standard page sizes, print them out at the least expensive local place that has a color printer (currently the UPS Store does $0.35 per full color page), glue stick the pages to an appropriately size piece of foam board, then cover it all with lamination sheets to preserve and protect and allow me to use wet erase markers on them. The back can be scored in places to allow them to fold up well enough. The overall cost of materials is between $5 and $10 US.
> 
> Here's some photos of a couple of these I did for a Free RPG Day with Paizo maps (that I even had to scan and enlarge to make it happen) -
> 
> 06-2008 Free RPG Day - a set on Flickr




Awesome!!  I'm going to do something like this.  Though instead of foam core, I'm going to use my beloved vinyl tiles.  Foam core is probably better, but the tiles are nice and cheap. 

Might I ask you a bit about your process.

I've got a map I want to do this with.  A big jpeg.  What's the best way to carve it up into 8x10 or so chunks?  Or did you just scan it in those chunks and crop them as you did it?  Should I just open the big jpeg in an image editing program and crab a 8x10 chunk, paste it into a new file and crop the edges exactly how I want them?

While I have played with images for the purposes of putting them in a brochure or on a website, I've never tried to make a multipage image all fit together perfectly.

Any suggestions?


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## Mark (Apr 15, 2009)

Well, you do have to resize it but if you raise the pixel level before you do so, it helps keep the image looking pretty good.  Also, scan it with as high a quality as you can set the scanner to.  After that, just be sure to keep the main map as a master, then use the selection tool to grab, perhaps, eight by ten inch chunks using the grid on the map itself.  You can paste these into a PDF program or in Word or whatever you have just to keep them the right size and make printing them a bit easier (that's what I like to do, anyway), because it is easy to note that you have a quarter inch on each side of the image and a half inch above and below on the page.  It also help to print out a small version of the map (it only needs to be in B&W) that you can mark up to help keep track of the individual sections and where you will make your selections.  You might want to jot down the percentages you use as you resize things so that the process can gain some speed.  I think that is about it.  It'll be trial and error as you work with the process.  Post here with your results and any additional tips.


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## nnms (Apr 15, 2009)

Mark said:


> I think that is about it.  It'll be trial and error as you work with the process.  Post here with your results and any additional tips.




Okay, here's my quick and dirty solution.  It uses all free software.



Open Openoffice.org (Microsoft Word would work fine too)
Change the paper size to the desired final map size (eg. 32x21 inches)
Also set it to have no margins
Paste in the super high resolution scan
Double check that the big picture is the right size
Print to PDFCreator (free/open source PDF maker)
Open PDF file in Acrobat Reader
Go to Toos>Select & Zoom>Snapshot tool
Select an appropriate amount of the file (say, 8 squares by 10 squares) with a little bit extra around the edges to leave room to trim)
Go to File>Print
Print to PDFCreator
Now I have a PDF of one 8x10 section
Repeat until the rest of the map is covered and you have a separate PDF file for each page.
Print them
Trim
Mount
Links:

OpenOffice.org (free/open source office suite)
OpenOffice.org - The Free and Open Productivity Suite

PDFCreator (free/open source PDF maker)
SourceForge.net: PDFCreator

Adobe Acrobat Reader (free, but not open source PDF reader)
Adobe - Adobe Reader download - All versions

My digital camera is traveling with a friend right now, but I'll get some pictures done at my next gaming session.


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## jdrakeh (Apr 15, 2009)

fissionessence said:


> Thanks for the tips, guys! I just found a local print shop and got some stuff for $.30/page! And they had heavier paper than Kinkos/Office Max! Also, since we were talking about it, I asked . . . they can print up to 15x19in pages. In color, one page that size would be $.55! I forgot to ask if they could then laminate that page, but I'm pretty excited about everything after getting gouged at the previous stores I went to.
> 
> ~




Glad that worked out for you! I learned this a while back and it saved me _hundreds_ (if not thousands) of dollars over the years.


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## Nebulous (Apr 15, 2009)

I've been using 0one 2D tiles and Skeleton Key for years, mixing them up on a dry erase battlemap, and mixing them with other 2D maps i've found online.  I also like to use dungeon tiles from the Descent boardgame and the occasional WotC dungeon tile. I recently bought Fat Dragon's EX Dungeon and i've been tinkering with that.  I have a ton of wall sections and props printed, but i haven't gotten around to making anything except for one door. I also bought some WorldWorks tiles and printed them, but they're not constructed yet. 

For me, it's a time consumption thing, and i don't think i particularly ENJOY gluing walls together, that's another problem. And i also don't have any help for such a large project, that would also help. 

I think i'll hit Michael's up for some glue though, i need to do that, and some foam core.  I think my ideal dungeon is a mix of 2D/3D; high walls have a tendancy to obscure what players can see, especially given the shape of my battleboard and game room. 

Oh, and i've also been buying real 3D terrain here and there for a while now; barrels, crates, trees, rocks, etc. That alone can get expensive, but the stuff is resin cast and extremely durable. I've also had some success in Pet Stores buying fish tank accessories on sale, such as ruined towers and walls.


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## Zaukrie (Apr 15, 2009)

Good point on other 3D terrain. Try going to a huge "garage sale" sometime and finding the kids toy area. Barrels, hay stacks, broken walls, whatever you can find.

The heroscapers site has a custom terrain thread with lots of tutorials and ideas, if you move to also building terrain (and usually advice on finding terrain in places you wouldn't expect, like columns in bridal outlet stores - cake decorations!).


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## Mark (Apr 25, 2009)

nnms said:


> Okay, here's my quick and dirty solution.  It uses all free software.





Good tips.  Thanks.


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## Denny (Jun 19, 2009)

In a terrible act of thread necromancy...I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions about WorldWorksGames products that are floating around in here.

*Complexity:* As a few have pointed out, some of our sets are in the "intermediate" range but its important to note that this isn't generally true of our overall catalog. Its just that we have such a wide range of terrain sets that they do tend to bounce around between beginner and intermediate levels (depending on what they are and how they function). Bread and butter terrain sets (Dungeons, Caves) are generally pretty easy to build. Most modelsets we offer are beginner level friendly.

*Pricepoint:* Indeed, our prices are marginally higher than some of our competitors but there are two key reasons for that. The biggest defining factor here is the sheer number of items contained in larger terrain sets. It isn't just tiles & walls but a dense compilation of props and related dressings. Just take a cruise through product descriptions and you'll get a sense of what's included. The other big X-factor here is development. A typical terrain setting is a full-time, 3 month investment, to infuse each set with an almost obsessive level of detail. Each texture is built from scratch and there are many situations where more than one person is involved with production. That said, we do recognize that some people want more of a smorgasbord, pick & choose purchase option (we're working on that one  ). 

*Modularity Standards: *You generally see many different modularity standards in our catalog. That's a consequence of being in the market for nearly 8 years and breaking new ground each consecutive year. This isn't to brag but to point out the reasons we have so much diversity in our catalog. Overall though, *dimensionally, everything is compatible with everything else*. In fact most of our products offer both 1" and 1.5" compatibility. We've definitely tapered off in the last few years though to a more consistent build standard. And we aren't done breaking new ground yet 

*If you're looking for a good place to start I would recommend the following:*

For 2-D tile lovers DungeonLinX is the set to get your feet wet. There's much more than meets the eye here and it has good generic versatility:








For basic 3-D hack and slash dungeoneering Chunky Dungeons 1" is a no brainer. Beyond the basic walls and corridor sections, it's absolutely stuffed to the gills with props and other goodies.







And don't forget to swing by and pick up our free "Beginners Guide to Cardstock Modeling":





I leave it there for now but we have over 55 unique terrain settings covering Fantasy, Modern, Horror and Sci-Fi in our current catalog that I would encourage you to explore at www.worldworksgames.com (or more recently at RPGNow). If you have any specific questions or concerns you can tap into our community forums or speak directly to designers and get involved with the process at: WorldWorksGames :: Index

Thanks for listening 

-Denny


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## SiderisAnon (Jun 19, 2009)

I own a number of Worldworks sets.  I also own two Fat Dragon Games sets and a couple of small things from other companies.

In comparison, I will say that I find that the Worldworks games have more of a "Wow, that's gorgeous" factor to them.  They are also more expensive, but as posted above the Worldworks sets tend to contain a heck of a lot more material.

There are some Worldworks models that are very complicated.  However, their beginner models are just as simple as the Fat Dragon Games' and other companies' beginner models.  What may be confusing some people in their comparison is that 1) Worldworks seems to have a more of the advanced sets than other companies; and 2) Worldworks includes sets that have simple, moderate, and very complex models contained in them.  


In the long run, I do have to say that I use just about an equal amount of the Fat Dragon Games and Worldworks material in my gaming.  The reason is about space.  I don't have enough to have walls and doors and towers and complex stuff.  I stick to boxes, barrels, tables, chairs, tombs, and other dungeon dressing.  For variety, I use almost all the furniture and props I have from both companies.  The biggest difference is that while the World Works set has absolutely everything in it, the Fat Dragon set has only props, so the percentage I'm actively using is different.


I really only have one complaint about the products from both companies, and that has to do with wasted cardstock.  I have found that if I print exactly as they have laid out, I waste a ton of cardstock.  I generally use Adobe to crop the pages so that I can print multiple items on a single sheet of cardstock.   I do understand why they spread things out, allowing you to pick and choose more of what you spend your ink on.  

To be fair, it's not just those two companies.  I have this complaint about pretty much every cardstock scenery item I have.



Now, if I could only find some sets of bushes and trees that both looked decent and were of good quality, my 3D table would be set.


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## jaerdaph (Jun 19, 2009)

I have a large colletion of Skeleton Key Games tiles and I love them (especially the sci fi tiles). I print them out on cardstock using an Epson color inkjet and use a paper cutter to cut them out. One important note: when you print the PDF out from Adobe Reader, be sure to select the None option under Page Scaling in the Page Handling section of the Print dialog box so the grids print out to scale (1" squares).


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