# Batman v Superman (open spoiler thread)



## Morrus (Mar 26, 2016)

This is the spoiler thread. Don't read it if you haven't seen the film. There be no sblocks here!

I very much enjoyed the film. Batfleck was better than I could have imagined (I now can't wait for a solo Batman film!) and, hey, it wasn't all set at night like the trailers make it look!

Not much of the film is actually BvS. A brief 30-second encounter about half way through and a longer 5-10 minute fight later where Bats totally wipes the floor with Supes. He wins, outright. (In fact, does Supes win a single fight in the whole film?) He plans the entire encounter.

Glad they dealt with Bats' origin story quickly in the opening credits. Took a minute or two, and then done. Has to be there, because not everybody is 40. For some kids this new DCEU is their first introduction.

Lois was a bit weak. She had to be rescued repeatedly. Did she do anything in the movie, other than get rescued over and over again?

Wonder Woman. Awesome. Love the photo from 1918 with Chris Pine as Steve Trevor etc. Looking forward to that film. Not so sure the guitar intro for her was quite right.

Supes gets nuked! And does the whole emaciated thing like when he got nuked in TDKR graphic novel. 

It it really is DKR plus Death of Superman. The former was great. The latter is where the film loses it a bit, I think. The whole Doomsday fight was a confusing mess of explosions and heat vision and glowing things. Still, I did NOT expect Superman to die (even though I know he did in the comic).

Over all, a solid thumbs up. I love the Marvel films (well, some of them - AoU was pretty bad!) but I love that this is a whole different take. If Marvel is cartoons, this is Mythology. It's definitely less kid-friendly than the Marvel stuff, but that's OK.


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## Jester David (Mar 26, 2016)

Saw it. 
It was terrible. 
There was so much messiness. So much that just appeared and didn't go anywhere. The pacing was erratic. It was just constant drama with no break or release of tension. No levity. It was exhausting. Oppressive. The definition of grimdark. 


I think the appearance of Jimmy Olsen at the beginning with Lane is probably a really good summary of how this movie views the source material. Yes, that _was_ Jimmy Olsen. 
And you can just imagine what that scene will be like in the R-rated director's cut DVD.


Amy Adams was wasted as Lois Lane. She does nothing in this film of note beyond being rescued and have an emotional scene in a bath for no good reason. And she throws away the Kryptonite spear in possibly the least secure way imaginable. _"This small hole two meters away from the fight is the perfect place to dispose of this radioactive weapon. Seems totally secure."_ And then, of course, she somehow magically realizes she needs it again. 
Funny how this movie has Martha Kent, Wonder Woman, Mercy Graves (killed pretty much off camera by Lex for... reasons), Senator Finch, and Lois freakin' Lane and still manages to fail the Bechdel Test.

The manic Jesse Eisenberg just didn't work. He was more Joker than mad industrial genius. 
Had they had him stop for a second and show Luthor was playing up the insanity to throw people off and make them underestimate him, that would have worked. A little bit like the Doctor, who plays the madman as a distraction, but grows serious when alone. But without that display of rationality, the sign than it was all part of the plan, Luthor was just a poor Joker. Who was, of course, thrown in jail for no good reason (Lane's word against his word and the best paid lawyers in the world). And then they shaved his head... why?
His motives for wanting Superman dead are a little weak. His father beat him, now he hates people with power? But at least we got a half-assed reason there, unlike with Batman. I imagine Darkseid (as foreshadowed by the actually cool Flash induced vision) was pulling some strings, but that just makes Luthor the flunkie. 

Luthor's plan also made no sense. 
He hired goons with untracable weapons (special bullets... why??) to kill people in the desert so people would blame Superman. Because, of course, when a whole bunch of people get shot and Superman was there he expects everyone to react with_ "Gee, Superman must have been involved, since he'd totally shoot people."
_He made a big deal about trying to get permission to ship the Kryptonite in from overseas, but he was already smuggling it over. So... why?
And then he turned Zod into a monster... why? He had no reason to know that was possible. And no reason to believe monster Zod would kill Superman, let alone that monster Zod not rip apart Luthor followed by the entire world. What was his end game there?

The Africa attack prompts the whole Senate hearings and the actually rather interesting questions of "should Superman save people worldwide without permission?" That's... that's actually a pretty good question and a realistic Superman movie really did need to ask that. It should go into the ramifications of Superman's actions and the effects his presence has worldwide. The unintended consequences of a Superman breaking international laws. But the movie just gives this pretty huge topic a casual glance and then moves on. 
Of course, the movie just asks the questions and just drops the whole issue. Movie ends and everyone just loves Superman. Despite the fact the last people really saw of him, he was flying into a giant crashed spaceship in Metropolis minutes before a giant monster flew out. Everyone was blaming him for a shooting and a bombing, why not an alien monster?
That's a whole lot of convoluted plans when Luthor has a crap tonne of Kyptonite, which Superman isn't aware of yet and doesn't know will harm him. He could have filled the bomb wheelchair with green K shrapnel and reduced Superman to pulp.


The movie follows the standard sequel formula of "hero questions if they should be a hero after deciding to be a hero in the first movie." Like Spiderman II, The Dark Knight, Superman II, etc. But Superman quits for 30 seconds. Superman has the standard Michael Bay character arc, where the protagonist starts of thinking they're awesome, doubts themselves, and then comes full circle to thinking they're awesome again. There's no growth. 

Batman's plan isn't much better than Luthor's. He spends the first half of the movie trying to track down the ship Luthor is using to bring in Kryptonite and then steal it off a truck. But then he just breaks into LexCorp and steals it. So that whole half of the movie could have been condensed into the (non)scene where Batman steals the Kryptonite. Add small MacGuffin explanation for how Batman knows Luthor has Kryptonite (also explaining how Wayne knows the K exists and what it does) and start there. Dump a lot of the extraneous Senate stuff. Bam! The movie is a svelte and tight 90-minutes. 

And there are just sooooo many reasons given for why Batman wants to fight Superman. Too many. It was almost cluttered. Understated is that he received notes from an amputee (Wallace Keefe) suggesting Wayne let his "family" die. Which were eventually revealed were sent by Lex. This mean:
a) Luthor had been intercepting Keefe's mail for a year in the hopes he'd get angry enough to publicly blame Superman (and not Wayne for not providing any compensation) 
b) Luthor knows Wayne is Batman since the mail was directed at him. 

There was also the Jason Todd costume that got a lot of traction in the trailers. But that was pretty much its only scene. Yup, the big potential motivation that Batman lost a foster son also didn't play in. Just some background decoration. You can add that to the unexplored backstory, like what happened to the Wayne manor. 

Batman also flips from thinking of Superman from an enemy to a friend really fast. It really comes down to "You mom was named Martha too? Dude, let's be besties!" So much so that Batman decides to devote the rest of his life to living like how Superman lived, despite having been convinced Superman was going to kill everyone on the planet a couple days earlier. 

And how many people does Batman brutally murder in this film? Ten? Twenty? 

The secret to being Batman: used tires!

The scene where Wonder Woman looks at the footage of other metahumans really feels out of place in the action. It breaks the plot and adds nothing to this movies. And then she's getting on a plane, seemingly minutes later. This feels like a scene the wanted earlier but didn't fit. Or a scene that should have been a stinger after the credits. 
Also darn convenient how Luthor identified Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg by their logos despite them not being heroes yet.


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 26, 2016)

One thing that really surprised me - we have a monster, and a monster-killing spear. Who should use it?  The Bronze Age War Goddess _holding a sword right now_, or the dude who gets weak as a kitten by being within ten feet of the thing?

I mean, as soon as Batman revealed that he'd forged a Kryptonite spear, I immediately had the flash-forward in my head to Wonder Woman hurling it like Brad-Pitt-as-Achilles-in-_Troy_, and it was gonna be awesome.

[video=youtube;v208yBT8NmQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v208yBT8NmQ[/video]

-Hyp.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 26, 2016)

I think the film will make lots of money. There is lots of actions and the CGI doesn't show too much. Is it good? I'm not sure. There are good and great moments, but the bad really pulls it down. 

The worse is religious Luthor and is stooooopid plot. Luthor as a crazy Darkseid religious zealot? Nope. Doesn't work. It doesn't fit the comic book character, not to mention that his dialogue and interpretation are weak. His plot to get B fight S was ridiculus too. Major plot hole warning, why didn't Lois just whisper to Sups: "Sups, Lex Luthor used me to get you to strike in another country. He must know your secret identity." Sups can literally hear her half a world away, but she can't whisper info to him when he is 100 meters away? And he can't hear his mom being kidnap half a country away? His super hearing only works on the one he really loves? Meaning Lois and Bruce when he talks to Alfred. 

Sups death lacks drama. Was it really necessary aside from respecting the canon when it comes to him fighting Dommsday? We know he is going to come back to life. And probably in a cheesy last minute way against Darkseid. Unless Batman's dream sequence with the parademons was a climpse in the next Justice League film. Maybe Sups does join Darkseid. The time travelling Flash that talks to Bruce seems to think so. 

Random thoughts:

Batman has a off switch and its his mom's name? 

How does Batman know where Martha is? Was Barbara Gordon has Oracle suppose to help him?

The kryptonite spear was a nice wink at the spear of Longinus. 

Wonder Woman shows promise, but I hope the film's scenario and dialogues are better. The rope was cool.

Lots of stuff that might fill plot holes were left out, so the DVD version might be better. 

Cavill can't act. He can only make faces. 

The rest of the leagues cameos felt like trailers.


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## Morrus (Mar 26, 2016)

goldomark said:


> The worse is religious Luthor and is stooooopid plot. Luthor as a crazy Darkseid religious zealot? Nope. Doesn't work. It doesn't fit the comic book character, not to mention that his dialogue and interpretation are weak.




While I agree he's the weakest of the main leads, I'm fine with the concept. There's no one Lex, any more than there's one Bats or Supes. The comics have had mad scientist Luthor, industrialist Luthor, politician Luthor, gangster Luthor, playboy Luthor. TV and movies have had different Luthors, too - buffoon Luthor, high school Luthor,  "criminal mastermind" Luthor, etc. Harbinger Luthor isn't much more of a stretch.



> His super hearing only works on the one he really loves? Meaning Lois and Bruce when he talks to Alfred.




I think that's looking for plot holes. He hears everyone all the time; he is deliberately tuned in to Lois, specifically, amongst the cacophony. This isn't exactly something they invented in this movie - it's a fairly constant trope of the character. The Alfred bit was him hearing the radio frequency.



> Sups death lacks drama. Was it really necessary aside from respecting the canon when it comes to him fighting Dommsday?




I didn't expect it and didn't feel it lacked drama. I didn't like the look of Doomsday and found all the fiery glowy stuff confusing and messy, but that particular aspect was just fine. 



> Unless Batman's dream sequence with the parademons was a climpse in the next Justice League film. Maybe Sups does join Darkseid. The time travelling Flash that talks to Bruce seems to think so.




Absolutely. Parademons. Omega symbol burnt into the desert. Lex's harbinging. It's all Darkseid. 

What I love is that Darkseid feels like he's gonna feel really evil, something I don't get from the Thanos hints in Marvel.  That's the cartoon vs. mythology tonal difference, and I really appreciate the different styles. Darkseid already feels ominous to me.


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## Jester David (Mar 26, 2016)

Hypersmurf said:


> One thing that really surprised me - we have a monster, and a monster-killing spear. Who should use it?  The Bronze Age War Goddess _holding a sword right now_, or the dude who gets weak as a kitten by being within ten feet of the thing?
> 
> I mean, as soon as Batman revealed that he'd forged a Kryptonite spear, I immediately had the flash-forward in my head to Wonder Woman hurling it like Brad-Pitt-as-Achilles-in-_Troy_, and it was gonna be awesome.




Oh god yes. 



goldomark said:


> How does Batman know where Martha is? Was Barbara Gordon has Oracle suppose to help him?



They actually explained that. He tracked the signal from the cloned phone. 

Because Luthor only uses the one set of thugs and didn't hire a different group to kidnap Martha Kent. And conveniently flew her to Metropolis rather than having the thugs just keep her in Kansas. Or a third location that would make it harder for Superman to track down.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 26, 2016)

Morrus said:


> While I agree he's the weakest of the main leads, I'm fine with the concept. There's no one Lex, any more than there's one Bats or Supes. The comics have had mad scientist Luthor, industrialist Luthor, politician Luthor, gangster Luthor, playboy Luthor. TV and movies have had different Luthors, too - buffoon Luthor, high school Luthor,  "criminal mastermind" Luthor, etc. *Harbinger Luthor isn't much more of a stretch*.



In this case, with the writing and acting it doesn't work.



> I think that's looking for plot holes. He hears everyone all the time; he is deliberately tuned in to Lois, specifically, amongst the cacophony. This isn't exactly something they invented in this movie - it's a fairly constant trope of the character. The Alfred bit was him hearing the radio frequency.



And she doesn't whisper to him "Luthor knows your secret identity."? Weak. The news is huge. Telling him is paramount. This means that the main event of the film (B v S) is the plan of a badly written vilain whose plot depends on characters acting stupidly. It limits my enjoyment of the film. Like Batman could have listen to what Sups was going to say. "Hey Bats, Luthor manipulated both of us and now my mom is held hostage."

Not that there isn't completely unenjoyable. Snyder is a comic book fan who made a film for comic book fans. That last heart beat is a refence to heart beat Sups here at the end of the Darl Knight Returns. I got out of there full of adrenaline wanting to see the extended cut. But damn it, stop insulting audiences with lazy plots.



> I didn't expect it and didn't feel it lacked drama. I didn't like the look of Doomsday and found all the fiery glowy stuff confusing and messy, but that particular aspect was just fine.



I expect Superman to die when he fights Doomsday for the first time. That is what that monster does. He isn't a mad scientist, a general out to kryptoform a planet or out to conquer a Earth. Writers created him to kill Superman. 



> Absolutely. Parademons. Omega symbol burnt into the desert. Lex's harbinging. It's all Darkseid.
> 
> What I love is that Darkseid feels like he's gonna feel really evil, something I don't get from the Thanos hints in Marvel.  That's the cartoon vs. mythology tonal difference, and I really appreciate the different styles. Darkseid already feels ominous to me.



Plot twist, Mr. Mxyzptlk is the main antagonist!

I do not see Thanos as evil as Darkseid. Thanos is more amoral while Darkseid is immoral.


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## delericho (Mar 26, 2016)

It's impressive how such an action-packed film can be so boring.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 26, 2016)

I think it is going to be the most polarizing superhero film made to date.


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## Jester David (Mar 26, 2016)

goldomark said:


> I think it is going to be the most polarizing superhero film made to date.



That might still be Dark Knight Rises or Age of Ulton, whose biggest sins weren't a lack of quality but not being as good as predecessors. 
Geeky movies, that's no contest. Force Awakens and Into Darkness are far more divisive. 

Second viewing might change some minds. Watching a film again can shift opinions, when you remove surprise and wonder and the ineffable glee of seeing Superman and Batman together. Will it stand up?
I mean, I *loved* the first Abrams Trek film when I left the theatre. Then I watched it a couple more times and the flaws just became more and more apparent...


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## Jester David (Mar 26, 2016)

I will say this about Batman v Superman... It has removed Civil War from the thing I'm anticipating most in the next few months. 
I cannot wait for the How It Should Have Ended for BvS.


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## trappedslider (Mar 26, 2016)

For awhile there, When batman told Alfred that Luthor was attempting to bring in a dirty bomb, I thought that's how suicide squad is going to tie into this; but then it turned out he was lying to Alfred.





Morrus said:


> Absolutely. Parademons. Omega symbol burnt into the desert. Lex's harbinging. It's all Darkseid.
> 
> What I love is that Darkseid feels like he's gonna feel really evil, something I don't get from the Thanos hints in Marvel.  That's the cartoon vs. mythology tonal difference, and I really appreciate the different styles. Darkseid already feels ominous to me.




That was my favorite bit, and I half expected Luthor to say "All hail Lord darksied"


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## Morrus (Mar 26, 2016)

Jester Canuck said:


> I will say this about Batman v Superman... It has removed Civil War from the thing I'm anticipating most in the next few months.
> I cannot wait for the How It Should Have Ended for BvS.




It's OK. We got it. You hate it.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 26, 2016)

Jester Canuck said:


> That might still be Dark Knight Rises or Age of Ulton, whose biggest sins weren't a lack of quality but not being as good as predecessors.
> Geeky movies, that's no contest. Force Awakens and Into Darkness are far more divisive.
> 
> Second viewing might change some minds. Watching a film again can shift opinions, when you remove surprise and wonder and the ineffable glee of seeing Superman and Batman together. Will it stand up?
> I mean, I *loved* the first Abrams Trek film when I left the theatre. Then I watched it a couple more times and the flaws just became more and more apparent...




I just do not see those as polarizing like this one. At the theater some people clapped when it was over. Then I heard some people saying it was an incoherent mess. People didn't have that sort of reaction with Age of Ultron, DKR or ST. Maybe after some time people will agree that it sucks like the Transformers films. Or maybe with the extended cut it will get more love. Althought Luthor cannot be salved. 

I'll give Snyder one thing. He can adapt Miller. Some parts of the fight to save Martha felt like Batman Year One when Bats is surrounded by cops. B v S falls more in the success column that were Watchmen and 300 than the blarg column Sucker Punch and Legend of the Guardians where. And 300 and Watchmen weren't above critical reproach. 

Financially it B v S will probably be considered a success. As of yesterday, the film has made 197 millions world wide. 82 millions in the North American market.


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## Jester David (Mar 26, 2016)

trappedslider said:


> That was my favorite bit, and I half expected Luthor to say "All hail Lord darksied"



Had he started chanting "Darkseid is! Darkseid is!" I would have actually squeed.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 26, 2016)

Reading some critics, it feels like some of them feel left out. Like it was a film with too many winks that only Geeks of at least level 10 could understand.


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## Hand of Evil (Mar 27, 2016)

I went in with a bad feeling and I came out saying "that was terrible".  Lots of plot holes, made it a mess, this was a piece meal script that was just slapped together.  Jesse Eisenberg was a very bad choice for Lex, did they even know who Lex is? 

It will make a lot of money but think it will also have over a 50% to 60% drop during its 2nd weekend.

It seems DC cannot make a great movie out of its comics, good sometimes but not great.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 27, 2016)

25% a good movie, 25% a crap movie, 50% a workhorse piece of comic book action.

The Bruce Wayne drive into the collapsing Metropolis? Epic. The crossing paths of the three heroes at Lex's party? Solid. I'm even okay with the Jesus in heaven montage of Supes saving people. Wonder Woman grinning after getting knocked a hundred feet by Doomsday was pretty sweet too.

The tone goes back and forth awkwardly. Lex's plan does make negative sense, and if it's all Darkseid madness, that was badly presented. Superman should have been given a couple scenes where he actually emotes and interacts with people in a non-fight way. Lois was mostly pointless, especially her "Hey, we don't need this Kryptonite spear. Wait, . Now I'm drowning." thing. 

Oh, and the whole "Here's an email that I'm going to spend 2 minutes reading and looking at videos, cutting off the dramatic build-up that was happening previously." Marvel knew enough not to rush introducing all their cast in a 2 minute montage.

Though I would have forgiven things if, after Lois threw the spear into the water, during the fight Aqua Man had popped out and said, "Hey, do you need this thing?"


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## tomBitonti (Mar 27, 2016)

The plus: Actually addressing the consequences of the earlier battle.  Having Lex's machinations be in the seams of the movie.  Superwoman -- perfectly cast.  Epic Batman and Superman smackdown.

The minus: Bullets in a covert op that can be traced to Lex.  Tonal straight jacket.  Mopey Superman.  The question of why create Doomsday.

I thought the change in meaning about the painting was interesting. I thought it meant Superman but does it mean Darkseid instead?

Thx!
TomB


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## Morrus (Mar 27, 2016)

Yup. Those devils are parademons.


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## cmad1977 (Mar 27, 2016)

Meh. It was fine. Don't really get what it took so much heat for. It delivered what I expected. I would have cut about 30 minutes of the movie but I say that about most films now. I'm also not a real comic book guy so...


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## trappedslider (Mar 28, 2016)

RangerWickett said:


> Though I would have forgiven things if, after Lois threw the spear into the water, during the fight Aqua Man had popped out and said, "Hey, do you need this thing?"




yeah,that's what my friend was wondering about too


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## Manbearcat (Mar 28, 2016)

Not going to give my opinion of the movie or any sort of review.  I'm just going to hone in one aspect:  

'Martha' as linchpin for Bats and Supes and basically the genesis of The Justice League.

Ok.  Fair enough.  I can buy-in.

But the clumsy, heavy-handed way it was done was rather amateur hour.  It should have been trivially easy for a profession film-maker to pull this off in an elegant, minimalist fashion (where the audience derives the connection naturally rather than being clubbed over the head with it).

Take the entirety of Batman's origin.  The "Martha" whisper by his father.  Zoom in on the black of her eyes until its entirely black.  Zoom back out and we're looking at a picture hanging on the wall in the Kent household.  We're zooming out of Martha Kent's eyes as Clark walks by and calls out "Ma (!)".  Maybe the picture is of Martha and Jon when they were young and simply has their names and the date of the photo.

The audience makes the connection of the centrality of the parents to the heroes and the shared name of their mothers.  Good enough. 

Give us a brief moment with Alfred conveying Bruce's "survivor's guilt" over his parent's death and that he didn't posses "the will to act" when it all went done (as was beautifully constructed in Batman Begins). 

Superman in his ultimate moment reveals his vulnerability and humanity to Batman before the killing stroke.  A simple "please" and a "he's going to kill my mother..."  That (a) connects him to Batman by disarming the concern of inhumanity and invulnerability and (b) provides the Caped Crusader an opportunity to exorcise some of his own demons surrounding his parents' death by saving Clark's own mother.  

Done.  We don't need to be hit over the head with Martha references left, right, and center and then have that awkward exchange between Bats and Supes in the pivotal moment.

Good idea.  Poor execution.


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## Tonguez (Mar 28, 2016)

firstly BvS is a great Batman movie, I liked that aspect of it and they made things tolerable - dear I say it, even enjoyable!

I said during one of the trailer discussions that I would eat my hat if the actual movie proved my pre-judgement wrong and if BvS had been a Batman movie I would now be looking up Hat recipes. BvS was better than Batman Begins and a worthy successor to the Dark Knight. I didn't get any DK Returns feel from this movie other than Bruce being older and jaded. but Affleck was good, (I never had any concern about that) and the action, espionage and brooding all worthwhile. A Batman-Wonder Woman movie with a Alien Menace plot device would have been worthwhile and I would now be a confirmed fan.

Unfortunately BvS was billed as a Superman film and in that regard it was confusing and uninspiring. I didn't like Man of Steel and Cavill just fails to have any charisma in this role. It could be just that I am still emotionally attached to Christopher Reeves portrayal but I don't think the grim dark vibe works for Superman.
The possibilities of the Senators questions were good set ups for a bit more drama, but then they were ignored in favour of brooding and claptrap. Lois was entirely pointless to the story other than as a plot device and I would have preferred if she was left out entirely and her parts given to either Martha Kent (woman in peril) or Wonder Woman (ie she should have been the heroic spear diver). Either that or actually have Lois be the one who was kidnapped at the end and needing to be saved ie make Lois the key* and not just an also ran (_more about that later_)

Wonder Woman was wasted in this movie, though the parts she was in shined, she had so much more potential to form an actual relationship with Bruce and Clark and be the bridge that brought them together and helped resolve the story. I would have loved for them to actually show her outwitting Batman (twice - stealing the chip and then putting it back in his car), being the one who gets Bats and Supes to bond and something more for her to do action wise.

Talking about bonding the 'hey both our Moms are called Martha we are like totally blood brothers now dude' was stoopid and unconvincing, and I would have much preferred that Wonder Woman had come in here with her own words of wisdom to sway their male egos.

I actually didn't mind Eisenbergs take on Lex Luthor it reminded me a bit of Gene Hackmans version (and not just the hair) crossed with the mad President Lex, of the cartoon. Speaking of which it would have been awesome to see Lex in his Warsuit and let him slug it out with the team using Kryptonite and Apokoliptan tech (see Darkseid easter egg). Lex did stray too far into Joker territory however and just further underlined that this was a Batman movie with Superman add ons.

The worst add on was of course the whole Doomsday tag (which made a post credit tag obsolete). I would have liked the movie much more if they had stopped with Batman (and co) saving Matha Kent from the bad guys. Bringing in Doomsday was unnecessary, it was spectacle that added nothing to the story and the outcome seemed contrived. While killing him was a surprise of the ' oh they did do it' kind, we know its a shallow death. Also why was Superman able to carry the kryptonite spear? not to mention he had already been hit twice with Kryptonite gas but still managed to shrug it off - was Batman using the weak stuff?. 




goldomark said:


> Reading some critics, it feels like some of them feel left out. Like it was a film with too many winks that only Geeks of at least level 10 could understand.




I think thats legitimate though. I may only be a level 5 geek but the Batman nightmare/vision and the subsequent Flash warning was 'way out there', abrupt and largely meaningless within the context of the movie. We're told that Lois is the key - but the key to what? Throughout the movie I never got the impression Lois was ever in peril and since I don't know what a parademon or an Omega symbol is, theres no context beyond the movie to draw on. At least the original Superman actually had Lois Lane die to push Superman to reverse time for her, this Superman and Lois dilemma was naff (and that also covers the oh she almost drowned but not really scene).

You might argue that its there as a easteregg for the geek viewers but within the rest of the movie I don't think that worked, it just added to the confusion. Warner Bros needs to  appeal to more than just Level 10 Geeks and throwing it in like this is a disservice to all viewers.

It was the same with the cameos of Aquaman and Cyborg, they were simply there to tag the next movie and beyond that were meaningless. At least The Flash file could have been tied back to the 'nightmare/vision' and the discussion of 'other Metahumans'... 

so overall I did enjoy the movie and that was entirely because of Batman and Wonder Women, overall though too many holes and team Superman fails to inspire

so is my hat safe?


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## ccs (Mar 28, 2016)

RangerWickett said:


> Oh, and the whole "Here's an email that I'm going to spend 2 minutes reading and looking at videos, cutting off the dramatic build-up that was happening previously." Marvel knew enough not to rush introducing all their cast in a 2 minute montage.




Yeah, but DC doesn't have TIME to do that.  They're 10 years behind Marvel & needed their stuff introduced ASAP, yesterday.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 28, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> I think thats legitimate though. I may only be a level 5 geek but the Batman nightmare/vision and the subsequent Flash warning was 'way out there', abrupt and largely meaningless within the context of the movie. We're told that Lois is the key - but the key to what? Throughout the movie I never got the impression Lois was ever in peril and since I don't know what a parademon or an Omega symbol is, theres no context beyond the movie to draw on. At least the original Superman actually had Lois Lane die to push Superman to reverse time for her, this Superman and Lois dilemma was naff (and that also covers the oh she almost drowned but not really scene).
> 
> You might argue that its there as a easteregg for the geek viewers but within the rest of the movie I don't think that worked, it just added to the confusion. Warner Bros needs to  appeal to more than just Level 10 Geeks and throwing it in like this is a disservice to all viewers.
> 
> ...



Lois is what keeps Superman tethered to humanity. It isn't explained in the film, heck we do not even know why they love each other, and those are some of the reasons why the film is so weak, but Lois is important. You might think his mom is also important, but Sups doesn't hear here when she is in danger like he hears Lois. 

The problem with the dream sequense, the Flash warning Bats and the leaguer cameos is that DC is playing catch up with Marvel. It wants to build its own cinematic universe in one film, so B v S was a 2 and half hour trailer for the DCverse.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 28, 2016)

Morrus said:


> This is the spoiler thread. Don't read it if you haven't seen the film. There be no sblocks here!
> 
> I very much enjoyed the film. Batfleck was better than I could have imagined (I now can't wait for a solo Batman film!) and, hey, it wasn't all set at night like the trailers make it look!
> 
> Not much of the film is actually BvS. A brief 30-second encounter about half way through and a longer 5-10 minute fight later where Bats totally wipes the floor with Supes. He wins, outright. (In fact, does Supes win a single fight in the whole film?) He plans the entire encounter.



Well, against the Warlord, he easily wins. The first encounter with Bats - well, he stops him in his tracks and Batman can't do anything. And of course, Doomsday ends up dead, but it costs Superman his life, so I don't know how you'd count that. 




> Glad they dealt with Bats' origin story quickly in the opening credits. Took a minute or two, and then done. Has to be there, because not everybody is 40. For some kids this new DCEU is their first introduction.



I think it was primarily there for Bruce's father dying words. "Martha". Which later becomes important when Superman mentions his foster mother as Batman is about to finish him.



> Lois was a bit weak. She had to be rescued repeatedly. Did she do anything in the movie, other than get rescued over and over again?



Her part in Superman Returns seemed better. She's not a fighter, but she was a good investigator / journalist. She investigates in this movie, too, but it seems to lead nowhere, really. It seems the critical information - Lex Luthor was behind killing the people in Africa, not Superman - never reaches anyone that could use that information effectively. She could and would have been captured by Lex either way, since she is a known way to get to Superman's attention. Thankfuly, Superman's superhearing is faster than the speed of sound... 




> Wonder Woman. Awesome. Love the photo from 1918 with Chris Pine as Steve Trevor etc. Looking forward to that film. Not so sure the guitar intro for her was quite right.



I don't know much about her, certainly not that she has been around so long, so that was an interesting information to me. But she seemed mostly there to set up future movies, because she wasn't actually needed for anything. Which isn't to say I disliked the character or thought she was bad. Just that she wasn't really needed.



> Supes gets nuked! And does the whole emaciated thing like when he got nuked in TDKR graphic novel.
> 
> It it really is DKR plus Death of Superman. The former was great. The latter is where the film loses it a bit, I think. The whole Doomsday fight was a confusing mess of explosions and heat vision and glowing things. Still, I did NOT expect Superman to die (even though I know he did in the comic).



The Batman vs Superman fight was great, though the the Batman vs Mercenaries fight afterwards was better (though it reminded me a lot of the second Bale/Nolan Batman movie). But the fight against Doomsday was just... meh. A series of visual effects. It doesn't help if your villain has no dialog, really. 
Also... "Hey, I have this Kryptonite Spear in my city, and I sit in a bat plane. Let's attract the monster that is currently on an uninhabitated island to the city so I can fight it while I am still looking for the spear". That was dumb, Bats. Very dumb. 



> Over all, a solid thumbs up. I love the Marvel films (well, some of them - AoU was pretty bad!) but I love that this is a whole different take. If Marvel is cartoons, this is Mythology. It's definitely less kid-friendly than the Marvel stuff, but that's OK.




It felt too disjointed, too many scenes that don't really flow together into one movie. 
It seems a jump-start to a new DC Universe, sure, but it does so without really telling the full story that was supposed to be in the movie.

There seemed to be rarely real dialogs, with people talking with each other and moving the story forward - people saying their talking point, yeah, but genuine interaction?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 28, 2016)

ccs said:


> Yeah, but DC doesn't have TIME to do that.  They're 10 years behind Marvel & needed their stuff introduced ASAP, yesterday.




I suppose they feel like they have to catch up, and don't expect Marvel to ever lose steam. (Or fear that Marvel losing steam means people stop watching Superhero movies all together?). They are rushing things and if they keep doing that, it will hurt them. I think so at least.


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## delericho (Mar 28, 2016)

RangerWickett said:


> Lois was mostly pointless, especially her "Hey, we don't need this Kryptonite spear. Wait, . Now I'm drowning." thing.




I was actually okay with that - at the point where she threw away the spear she didn't know Doomsday existed, so it's only use was to kill Superman (which she didn't want).

What I thought was pretty inexcusable, though, was that Batman's plan for dealing with Doomsday was to have him follow Batman back to Gotham, find the spear, and use it to kill him... he does indeed have Doomsday follow him, and then doesn't spend even a single moment looking for the spear.

(I also had an issue with the handling of the Big Rock. Lex notes early on that it's radioactive, and then both he and Bruce are shown handling it with no safety precautions as well. But that's just Hollywood science at work.)


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 28, 2016)

delericho said:


> I was actually okay with that - at the point where she threw away the spear she didn't know Doomsday existed, so it's only use was to kill Superman (which she didn't want).
> 
> What I thought was pretty inexcusable, though, was that Batman's plan for dealing with Doomsday was to have him follow Batman back to Gotham, find the spear, and use it to kill him... he does indeed have Doomsday follow him, and then doesn't spend even a single moment looking for the spear.



Indeed. They even stated that the island of re-entry was uninhabited. And Batman was in his bat plane! 
And then he isn't even searching for the spear? 



> (I also had an issue with the handling of the Big Rock. Lex notes early on that it's radioactive, and then both he and Bruce are shown handling it with no safety precautions as well. But that's just Hollywood science at work.)




Well... How radioactive needs material of unknown/alien origin need to be to not be cleared for transport into the United States by default? 
It might not need to be all that dangerous for that.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 28, 2016)

The first of many deleted scenes that WB is about to release.

[video=youtube;s-MUzvASr8s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MUzvASr8s[/video]

A servant of Darkseid with some mother boxes?

I've read Io9 that Silas Stone used a mother box when he cyberized his son. Anyone else saw that?


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## Morrus (Mar 28, 2016)

goldomark said:


> I've read Io9 that Silas Stone used a mother box when he cyberized his son. Anyone else saw that?




Yes. It was in the film.


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## Ebon Shar (Mar 29, 2016)

I REALLY thought that Aquaman would be involved in the recovery of the spear.  I was disappointed that he wasn't.  That being said, I went in with low expectations and found myself enjoying the film despite its weaknesses.  It was, on par, far better than Age of Ultron.  I look forward to seeing where they go with the DCU.


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## Tonguez (Mar 29, 2016)

goldomark said:


> Lois is what keeps Superman tethered to humanity. It isn't explained in the film, heck we do not even know why they love each other, and those are some of the reasons why the film is so weak, but Lois is important. You might think his mom is also important, but Sups doesn't hear here when she is in danger like he hears Lois.




yeah it probably would have worked better for me if it was Lois who got kidnapped and have to be saved by Batman while Superman dealt with the bigger threat. As I said earlier I never got the impression that Lois was ever in peril or ever 'the key' to anything. Making her the damsel needing to be saved solves that, especially if rather than doing it himself Superman is forced to trust Batman to do it.



> The problem with the dream sequense, the Flash warning Bats and the leaguer cameos is that DC is playing catch up with Marvel. It wants to build its own cinematic universe in one film, so B v S was a 2 and half hour trailer for the DCverse.




yeah but shoehorning the cameos, while necessary was also lazy and thus doesn't do much to help the general audience catch up. I was confused about what was happening in the Cyborg clip and I watched Justice League: War just 2 months ago as part of my build up to the movie!. 

Now if it was me doing the BvS writing I would have deleted the 2 kids diving in the Indian ocean scene and instead have Mercy reporting to Lex with "Mr Luthor, two of our survey probes in the Indian Ocean were attacked, but we still managed to recover the package, its being shipped over now" then have Lex look at his computer screen with "aah, interesting. Add it to the Cadmus files and contact Dr Stone" -IMHO that gives the Aquaman cameo relevance and in my scenario foreshadows both Cyborg and another possible big bad besides Darkseid


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 29, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> yeah it probably would have worked better for me if it was Lois who got kidnapped and have to be saved by Batman while Superman dealt with the bigger threat. As I said earlier I never got the impression that Lois was ever in peril or ever 'the key' to anything. Making her the damsel needing to be saved solves that, especially if rather than doing it himself Superman is forced to trust Batman to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> yeah but shoehorning the cameos, while necessary was also lazy and thus doesn't do much to help the general audience catch up. I was confused about what was happening in the Cyborg clip and I watched Justice League: War just 2 months ago as part of my build up to the movie!.




It was not neccessary at all. They should spend their time building up the universe, instead of cramming everything and the kitchen sink in one movie. 

They want to catch up to Marvel, but that is kinda pointles - they will make profits per movie, not per plot unfolded.


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## MechaPilot (Mar 29, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> I think thats legitimate though. I may only be a level 5 geek but the Batman nightmare/vision and the subsequent Flash warning was 'way out there', abrupt and largely meaningless within the context of the movie. We're told that Lois is the key - but the key to what?




The key to preventing the Injustice future/storyline?


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## MechaPilot (Mar 29, 2016)

I watched the movie twice today, and I really liked it.  Is it an epic masterpiece of storytelling?  No.  Does it have flaws?  Yes.  Overall, I'd rate it an 8.5/10.  Better than Age of Ultron, Thor, both of the Iron Man sequels, the 1st Captain America film, the Dark Knight Rises, both of the Keaton Batman films, TASM2, X-Men 3, Spiderman 3, both of the Jessica Alba Fantastic 4 films (it's virtually guaranteed to be better than the newer one, I just never saw the newer one, so it's not on my list here), Indy 4, both of the new Trek films (and I actually like them both), both Hulk films, and Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.  I'd put it on par with the first Avengers film, but below Winter Soldier and The Dark Knight.

Affleck's Batman and Bruce Wayne are amazing.  I love how creepy Batman is when we first see him.  I think the voice modulator works so much better than Bale's growling while also having more realism than Keaton's doing nothing to disguise his voice.  I love Batman's stunt driving.  When Bruce was driving to Wayne tower in Metropolis it felt like watching James Bond in his spy car.  I also love the more brutal Batman.  I've seen some people online complaining about him killing people, but screw that noise.  The other good live-action portrayals of batman (Bale and Keaton) both saw him killing at least one person.

I also thought Wonder Woman shined when she was on screen.  She is fierce, sexy, mysterious, and everything that I would expect from her given how little she actually appears in the film.

I also liked the flash vision scene.  DC has a very rich multiverse of elseworld stories, and I thought the nod to the Injustice storyline (which seems to be the case given that Superman is talking about Lois being taken from him) was great.  I also thought the cameos for the rest of the league were good, though I would have put them in the same scene where Bruce sends Wonder Woman the Brussels picture.

On the topic of the cameos, I thought it was interesting that a mother box had already appeared on Earth, as appears to be evident from the Cyborg cameo.  It reminds me greatly of his origin in the animated film Justice league: War.

I thought Cavill did a great job as a Superman who was trying to find his place in a world that both loves and loathes him, and fears and respects him.  I thought he really showed his morality and humanity in taking Doomsday into space, and potentially being willing to die to save the planet (after all, there's no reason to expect that he would think he could survive being nuked like that).

I also liked Eisenberg's Luthor.  He was not the traditional comic book Luthor, but none of the live-action film portrayals have been: the sleazy real-estate obsessed Luthor played by Hackman, and later by Spacey in Superman Returns, is pretty far from the evil 80's businessman Luthor that I loved from the animated series, and could (I believe) hardly be said to be true to the comics portrayals (which have, admittedly, bounced around in their theme as well).  The only thing I didn't like about his Luthor on my first viewing was the last scene he was in.  However, a second viewing led me to the conclusion that he was sort of like Darkseid's Renfield.  A conclusion which seems supported by the "communion" deleted scene that was released.

I think the non-linear nature of some of the story may have thrown some people off, but I didn't have any issues with following it.

I think my biggest issue with the film is the lack of a fully fleshed out motivation for Lex (but that may be in the R rated director's cut).  However, I also think the movie didn't suffer much from it given that Bruce/Batman was basically the villain, and his reasons for going after Superman were quite well established.


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## Tonguez (Mar 29, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> .
> I think my biggest issue with the film is the lack of a fully fleshed out motivation for Lex (but that may be in the R rated director's cut).  However, I also think the movie didn't suffer much from it given that Bruce/Batman was basically the villain, and his reasons for going after Superman were quite well established.




I thought Superman was the villain? and I note it was Superman who punched first! (well pushed)


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## Kramodlog (Mar 29, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> yeah it probably would have worked better for me if it was Lois who got kidnapped and have to be saved by Batman while Superman dealt with the bigger threat. As I said earlier I never got the impression that Lois was ever in peril or ever 'the key' to anything. Making her the damsel needing to be saved solves that, especially if rather than doing it himself Superman is forced to trust Batman to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'll stop you right there. If you continue to make sense you'll never become a writer in Hollywood.


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> yeah it probably would have worked better for me if it was Lois who got kidnapped and have to be saved by Batman while Superman dealt with the bigger threat. As I said earlier I never got the impression that Lois was ever in peril or ever 'the key' to anything. Making her the damsel needing to be saved solves that, especially if rather than doing it himself Superman is forced to trust Batman to do it.




What, being rescued by Superman three times wasn't enough for you? One of the biggest issues with the movie is that Lois is constantly a damsel in distress and does nothing useful. She has to be saved by Superman three times. Your idea would exacerbate that problem.


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> Affleck's Batman and Bruce Wayne are amazing.  I love how creepy Batman is when we first see him.  I think the voice modulator works so much better than Bale's growling while also having more realism than Keaton's doing nothing to disguise his voice.  I love Batman's stunt driving.  When Bruce was driving to Wayne tower in Metropolis it felt like watching James Bond in his spy car.  I also love the more brutal Batman.  I've seen some people online complaining about him killing people, but screw that noise.  The other good live-action portrayals of batman (Bale and Keaton) both saw him killing at least one person.




[video=youtube;psVIG7YvdjM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psVIG7YvdjM[/video]


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## Ryujin (Mar 29, 2016)

Morrus said:


> What, being rescued by Superman three times wasn't enough for you? One of the biggest issues with the movie is that Lois is constantly a damsel in distress and does nothing useful. She has to be saved by Superman three times. Your idea would exacerbate that problem.




For all of the movies faults, at least in "Man of Steel" she had some agency.


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## Tonguez (Mar 29, 2016)

Morrus said:


> What, being rescued by Superman three times wasn't enough for you? One of the biggest issues with the movie is that Lois is constantly a damsel in distress and does nothing useful. She has to be saved by Superman three times. Your idea would exacerbate that problem.




Nah cause along with having Lois kidnapped and held hostage by KGBeast, I'd also eliminate the scene when she's thrown off the roof and the stupid drowning scene at the end (in fact I'd eliminate Doomsday entirely). That means the only other time she would need to be saved is in the Africa scene (which was the only one in the movie that kind-of added to Lois' story) 

Then use the added time to actually establish that Superman loves Lois - she is his whole world!


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## MechaPilot (Mar 29, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> I thought Superman was the villain? and I note it was Superman who punched first! (well pushed)




I saw Bruce as the villain.  He was a sympathetic villain, to be sure, but he followed the general writing trope that "villains act, heroes react."  Virtually everything he did, aside from the character-reinforcing dream sequences, were affirmative efforts to track down the kryptonite and create a weapon to destroy superman.  By contrast, Superman was always reactionary to the efforts of Bruce and Lex, while also actively engaging in saving people.


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## MechaPilot (Mar 29, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> I was confused about what was happening in the Cyborg clip and I watched Justice League: War just 2 months ago as part of my build up to the movie!.




It's interesting to see the different ways that people think/recall things.  I haven't seen JL: War in at least four months, but I still recognized that the cube-shaped device was probably a mother box.  Of course, it probably helps that the JL: War Cyborg origin is the only origin I've ever seen for that character.

It does raise an interesting question though, about why and where a mother box had already been found on earth.


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## MechaPilot (Mar 29, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> Now if it was me doing the BvS writing I would have deleted the 2 kids diving in the Indian ocean scene and instead have Mercy reporting to Lex with "Mr Luthor, two of our survey probes in the Indian Ocean were attacked, but we still managed to recover the package, its being shipped over now" then have Lex look at his computer screen with "aah, interesting. Add it to the Cadmus files and contact Dr Stone" -IMHO that gives the Aquaman cameo relevance and in my scenario foreshadows both Cyborg and another possible big bad besides Darkseid




That doesn't sound like a bad way to go, but one of the things I really enjoyed in the film was Lex politically fencing with the senator, leading to the wheelchair blowing up at the capital.  If you wanted to keep that in, you'd probably have to separate the finding and the shipping of the kryptonite into two different scenes (though you certainly could have had Aquaman, or some Atlanteans, attack the ship en route in a scene reminiscent of the old liberty ships trying to run supplies to the U.K. past the German U-boats that patrolled the Atlantic during WWII).


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## Kramodlog (Mar 29, 2016)

I was think about the DC cinematic murderverse. I have trouble finding Jared Leto's Joker to be Afleck's Batman uber nemesis. Ok, Luthor managed to manipulated Batman pretty easily, so gang banger Joker could do the same, but I just do not find him menacing after Batman faced Superman. Even if he did kill Batman's sidekick. 

I hope a more grimdark Joker will rise and that the Joker we saw was just a mad Jason Todd.


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## MechaPilot (Mar 30, 2016)

goldomark said:


> I hope . . . that the Joker we saw was just a mad Jason Todd.




I'm pretty darned sure that he's not.  From what I've read and analyzed of the theory that he is Jason Todd, none of it holds water.  However, I do want to see Jason Todd in the DCCU: I think a Red Hood film would make for a good Batman stand-alone film.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 30, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> I'm pretty darned sure that he's not.  From what I've read and analyzed of the theory that he is Jason Todd, none of it holds water.  However, I do want to see Jason Todd in the DCCU: I think a Red Hood film would make for a good Batman stand-alone film.




I'm reluctant to see spin-off of Batman. What I want to know is if the Joker is still alive in B v S. It does make much sense that the Joker is alive after he killed Robin when Batman is ready to murder Superman.


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## VengerSatanis (Mar 30, 2016)

Yeah, I loved it. More than I thought I would. Those critics got into my head a little bit, making me think that Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice would be terrible. Well, it wasn't. On the contrary, it went far beyond my expectations. 

Check out my blog post where I go toe-to-toe with the critics: http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/20...justified.html

Thanks,

VS


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## VengerSatanis (Mar 30, 2016)

Jester Canuck said:


> That might still be Dark Knight Rises or Age of Ulton, whose biggest sins weren't a lack of quality but not being as good as predecessors.
> Geeky movies, that's no contest. Force Awakens and Into Darkness are far more divisive.
> 
> Second viewing might change some minds. Watching a film again can shift opinions, when you remove surprise and wonder and the ineffable glee of seeing Superman and Batman together. Will it stand up?
> I mean, I *loved* the first Abrams Trek film when I left the theatre. Then I watched it a couple more times and the flaws just became more and more apparent...




The Force Awakens divisive?  Don't 9 out of 10 Star Wars fans like (if not outright love) TFA?

I agree with the dude who said that BvS will be the most divisive superhero movie.  So many people dislike it and quite a few of us love it.

VS


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## Jester David (Mar 30, 2016)

VengerSatanis said:


> The Force Awakens divisive?  Don't 9 out of 10 Star Wars fans like (if not outright love) TFA?
> 
> I agree with the dude who said that BvS will be the most divisive superhero movie.  So many people dislike it and quite a few of us love it.
> 
> VS




Check out the Metacritic reviews:
http://www.metacritic.com/movie/star-wars-episode-vii---the-force-awakens
824 positive, 599 negative, and only 311 mixed. The fans loved it or hated it.  

Both BvS and even Star Trek Into Darkness are more appreciated by fan reviews.


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## megamania (Mar 31, 2016)

I can see why the critics didn't like the movie but the fans did.    It combines The Dark Knight Returns, The Death of Superman, New 52 and Crisis of Infinite Earths into one story.    Fans can piece it together but "outsiders" will be lost or need help piecing it together.


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## ccs (Mar 31, 2016)

VengerSatanis said:


> The Force Awakens divisive?  Don't 9 out of 10 Star Wars fans like (if not outright love) TFA?




I would've liked it a lot more had I not seen the original version back in 77/78.

BvS?  It wasn't as bad as the critics claim.  But it could've been a lot better.


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## Tonguez (Mar 31, 2016)

megamania said:


> I can see why the critics didn't like the movie but the fans did.    It combines The Dark Knight Returns, The Death of Superman, New 52 and Crisis of Infinite Earths into one story.    Fans can piece it together but "outsiders" will be lost or need help piecing it together.




it may take those elements but then it screws them entirely and makes a complete hash of the characters

come on in Dark Knight Returns Batman is so ahead of everyone else that he sets up his own heart attack, it was enough that even Superman thought his heart was failing. Thats entirely missing from the BvS Batman who twice gets duped by Wonder Woman  and manipulated by Lex's ridiculous scheme.


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## MechaPilot (Mar 31, 2016)

goldomark said:


> I'm reluctant to see spin-off of Batman. What I want to know is if the Joker is still alive in B v S. It does make much sense that the Joker is alive after he killed Robin when Batman is ready to murder Superman.




Well, bear in mind that the killing is probably new.  At one point in the film Alfred shows Bruce the newspaper about the criminal he branded and asks about "new rules."


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## MechaPilot (Mar 31, 2016)

VengerSatanis said:


> The Force Awakens divisive?  Don't 9 out of 10 Star Wars fans like (if not outright love) TFA?




It feels too much like a remake to me: I came up with a list of at least 20 similarities between TFA and the original trilogy, and I'm sure I didn't get all of them.  Also, the Han death felt wasted to me: his relationship with his son had no development for me to feel any real betrayal in that scene.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 31, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> For all of the movies faults, at least in "Man of Steel" she had some agency.



She was on track for Lex Luthors manipulations thanks to the bullet she found - but that didn't go anywhere. She could have stayed in her bath tub for the rest of the movie and it would seem it would have the same impact. There seems to be no person in the movie that benefits from her research. 
I feel that is much more sidelining her character than any number of damsel-in-distress scenes. The only role she might have in the end is to explain Superman's "Martha" outcry - but even that might not have been neccessary, and that means her only value is that she's the girlfriend of Superman and knows his real identity, not that she's a clever journalist.


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## MechaPilot (Mar 31, 2016)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> She was on track for Lex Luthors manipulations thanks to the bullet she found - but that didn't go anywhere. She could have stayed in her bath tub for the rest of the movie and it would seem it would have the same impact. There seems to be no person in the movie that benefits from her research.
> I feel that is much more sidelining her character than any number of damsel-in-distress scenes. The only role she might have in the end is to explain Superman's "Martha" outcry - but even that might not have been neccessary, and that means her only value is that she's the girlfriend of Superman and knows his real identity, not that she's a clever journalist.




As a woman who likes strong female characters (Wonder Woman was awesome btw, even if it does still bug me that they removed the power of flight from her), I don't have an issue with Lois' role in the story.  Sometimes stories unfold faster than a Journalist can prove/push them.  Once she knew where the bullet was from, she couldn't quote her source because he wouldn't go on the record.  From there it seemed like only a couple of days passed for the characters before the climax of the story, and that's likely to be nowhere near enough time for a reporter to prove a story enough for a paper to publish it without a reasonable chance of losing a slander suit.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 31, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> Well, bear in mind that the killing is probably new.  At one point in the film Alfred shows Bruce the newspaper about the criminal he branded and asks about "new rules."




It sounded like it had been going on for a while. At least since Sups destroyed Metropolis. People in the film knew that the brand equaled a death sentence. He couldn't have beent he first. It could be bad writing or a scene that was cut gave more info on Robin.

Barbara Gordon was in the flick, but her scene was cut. I wonder if she was Oracle and what that implicated about Mr. J.


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## VengerSatanis (Mar 31, 2016)

Jester Canuck said:


> Check out the Metacritic reviews:
> http://www.metacritic.com/movie/star-wars-episode-vii---the-force-awakens
> 824 positive, 599 negative, and only 311 mixed. The fans loved it or hated it.
> 
> Both BvS and even Star Trek Into Darkness are more appreciated by fan reviews.




To me, that's just people on the internet being people on the internet.  I was talking about real life.  

If I was walking down the street and saw 9 other individuals wearing _Star Wars_ t-shirts and we chatted about _The Force Awakens_, my guess is that only 1 out of the 10 would have more negative things to say about it than positive.  And, yes, it's very much a remake/reboot of _A New Hope_.

For that matter, of those 10 people, my assumption is that at least 7 of them would say, "Meh" or "I didn't like it" to _Star Trek's Into Darkness_.  So, also not divisive, in my opinion.

However, this thread is about _Batman vs. Superman_, so that's about all I'm going to say about other movies on this thread.

*VS*


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2016)

VengerSatanis said:


> To me, that's just people on the internet being people on the internet.  I was talking about real life.
> 
> If I was walking down the street and saw 9 other individuals wearing _Star Wars_ t-shirts and we chatted about _The Force Awakens_, my guess is that only 1 out of the 10 would have more negative things to say about it than positive.  And, yes, it's very much a remake/reboot of _A New Hope_.
> 
> ...




In marketing the issue has always been how much weight to give to complaints, even in the snail mail days. Satisfied customers rarely talk about their satisfaction. Maybe one in a thousand lets you know that you've done well. Maybe one in ten dissatisfied customers contacts you.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 31, 2016)

Snyder explains Robin was killed 10 years before B v S. http://io9.gizmodo.com/zack-snyder-...utm_source=io9_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow


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## MechaPilot (Apr 1, 2016)

goldomark said:


> It sounded like it had been going on for a while. At least since Sups destroyed Metropolis. People in the film knew that the brand equaled a death sentence. He couldn't have beent he first. It could be bad writing or a scene that was cut gave more info on Robin.
> 
> Barbara Gordon was in the flick, but her scene was cut. I wonder if she was Oracle and what that implicated about Mr. J.




Supes only appeared, and Zod only wrecked part of Metropolis, 18 months before the film starts.

The film also states that the criminal we see that was branded was not the first.  We can hear a news report in the film state that another person who was branded was a suspected child predator.  Based on the two people he apparently branded, Batman seemed to have been branding sex-offenders.  And that kind of makes sense.  I mean, why would the "bat brand" equate to a death sentence in prison?  The only thing I can think of is that the brand was batman's way of signifying something that most prison populations don't care for.  I don't know too much about prisons, but I've heard that child predators are not looked fondly on by the general population.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 1, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> Supes only appeared, and Zod only wrecked part of Metropolis, 18 months before the film starts.
> 
> The film also states that the criminal we see that was branded was not the first.  We can hear a news report in the film state that another person who was branded was a suspected child predator.  Based on the two people he apparently branded, Batman seemed to have been branding sex-offenders.  And that kind of makes sense.  I mean, why would the "bat brand" equate to a death sentence in prison?  The only thing I can think of is that the brand was batman's way of signifying something that most prison populations don't care for.  I don't know too much about prisons, but I've heard that child predators are not looked fondly on by the general population.




Yeah, Jared as already been beat up. But I'm not sure about the Batman brand. It could just be a weak scenario.


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## Ningauble (Apr 2, 2016)

I thought it was awesome.  I went in with zero expectations and I was blown away.  It has some problems certainly, but the last half of the movie or so was great.  Fight with Bats v. Sup was epic and really reminded me of the Dark Knight Returns.  The death really surprised me.  I did not know it was coming until his little speech.  All the actors were good, even Jesse Eisenberg who I was worried would be too annoying but for the most part I liked him as Lex (was he supposed to be a clone of the original Lex Luthor?).  I did not think it was too grim or humorously.  It certainly had enough tender moments such as Sup with his mother or the vision of his father.  Also the funeral scene I found moving.  Critics loved Spiderman 2 for the awesome speech by Aunt May so the critics should have given credit for these scenes.  Cannot wait for the next DC movie.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 6, 2016)

Saw it last night and meh.  Thought they were going to do so much more.  The plot was mediocre and at times I was just having a hard time paying attention to the flick.  Superman movies shouldn't be so dour.  Superman the tortured hero doesn't work for me.  With luck they move on from Snyder on this franchise.  Loved Man of Steel but this was a disappointment.  Luthor was pretty weak, but better than the lame land scheme guy from the old flicks. There is potential there though.  

The chick who played Wondey was fine.

In the Aquaman scene was expecting a hook to drop in from the top of the screen. Those clips just seemed cheap for some reason. 

a lot of references to TDKR and Death of Superman but didn't have the impact I was expecting.


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## Erekose (Apr 6, 2016)

Saw it today and thought it was OK. As predominantly a Batman fan, I thought Affleck did a great job. Only the late reveal that he'd been guided/manipulated by Luthor felt like wrong footing ...

That said, completely agree that Doomsday was surperfluous as was the Lois near death by drowning ...


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## Dog Moon (Apr 14, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> Cyborg




Oh, is THAT who that person in the one video was!  I was like I recognize the Flash because of the TV series and Aquaman because of stuff, but I had no idea who that last person was.

I thought it was kinda weird that Aquaman was in the movie but wasn't really IN the movie.  I also thought it sad that they didn't get the Flash from the TV show, but I guess I can understand why they might not, even though I think that would have been cooler.

The Lex Luthor thing didn't bother me as much, though ironically after reading all the other posts for some reason even his character started to bug me.  I don't mean the ridiculousness of the plot, but the character itself.  It felt a little off, but not as much as other people think.

I think I had many complaints as others that don't need to be repeated.  I thought it was kind of a boring action movie and wish there had actually been more than just the one half-arsed joke.  "I thought she was with you."

Wonder Woman was cool and I thought that last battle was fairly slick, although it made me feel like a boss in a dnd campaign.  Superman and Wonder Woman were both played by power gamers and Batman wasn't.  Because of this, the boss was made to fight them and poor Bats just couldn't stand up against a boss with such a high Strength and AC.  So in the final fight it was mostly them fighting, though Batman did get in one little shot at the end just so he could say he DID participate in the battle [but only after the boss was grappled and the AC lowered].  Wonder Woman might have made more sense wielding the spear, but she was currently the one holding the boss [Mutant Zod is what I called him, but I don't know the actual name and don't know if the movie ever mentioned it...] so it made sense that Supes would be the one to use it, even though yeah, it IS weird that he is wielding it.

Anyway, I was definitely not a big fan of the movie and besides part of that last battle, don't ever have the desire to watch it again.


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