# Falcon and winter solider



## trappedslider

So, Disney has dropped the marvel legends episodes covering both WS and Falcon.

My predictions: Every episode has Falcon saying No to being asked to move by Bucky


I wonder how often Sharon will show up, and how long after endgame does this one take place?


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## MarkB

Taking bets now on whether Falcon's reply to "So, no plan, then?" is "I prefer to just wing it."


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## Nikosandros

MarkB said:


> Taking bets now on whether Falcon's reply to "So, no plan, then?" is "I prefer to just wing it."



It that was a joke, it flew right over my head.


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## Janx

Nikosandros said:


> It that was a joke, it flew right over my head.



I'm flappergasted that you didn't get that.


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## Bayushi_seikuro

MarkB said:


> Taking bets now on whether Falcon's reply to "So, no plan, then?" is "I prefer to just wing it."



I'm really hoping he adopts Anthony Mackie's scene wrap catchphrase: "Cut the check."


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## Retreater

I really, really hope that I can keep up with the MCU without Wandavision. I just couldn't get into it. 
I tend to dislike the slower pace, meandering plots, and quality dips of television series in general. So I could see myself staying a fan of the films, not watching the tv shows (like every other franchise). Just hope I can keep up (or read summaries online).


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## DeviousQuail

Retreater said:


> I really, really hope that I can keep up with the MCU without Wandavision. I just couldn't get into it.
> I tend to dislike the slower pace, meandering plots, and quality dips of television series in general. So I could see myself staying a fan of the films, not watching the tv shows (like every other franchise). Just hope I can keep up (or read summaries online).



I have no doubt that people will be able to keep up without watching the shows. You might lose out on some small details but a bullet point list of the outcomes of WandaVision and a few pictures from the show should be enough for anyone to understand where things are in the lead up to the movies. Worst case scenario if you see a movie and are confused by something there are a ton of people online who will help you out.

Also, Disney doesn't want to lose out on your money so I can see them putting together a summary video similar to the Marvel Studios: Legends series.


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## Paul Farquhar

Retreater said:


> I really, really hope that I can keep up with the MCU without Wandavision. I just couldn't get into it.
> I tend to dislike the slower pace, meandering plots, and quality dips of television series in general. So I could see myself staying a fan of the films, not watching the tv shows (like every other franchise). Just hope I can keep up (or read summaries online).



I feel the opposite. I prefer TV to the lack of character development and rushed plots of movies.


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## trappedslider

"A sorcerer is a wizard without a hat."


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## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> "A sorcerer is a wizard without a hat."



It's as good a definition as D&D has ever come up with.


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## Paul Farquhar

trappedslider said:


> "A sorcerer is a wizard without a hat."



It's good to get that finally cleared up.


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## trappedslider

MarkB said:


> It's as good a definition as D&D has ever come up with.



PC: "I'm a wizard." 
NPC: "Where's your hat?"


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## Tonguez

Androids, Aliens and Wizards - did they just reveal Marvels Phase 4 storyarc?


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## Blue

Retreater said:


> I really, really hope that I can keep up with the MCU without Wandavision. I just couldn't get into it.
> I tend to dislike the slower pace, meandering plots, and quality dips of television series in general. So I could see myself staying a fan of the films, not watching the tv shows (like every other franchise). Just hope I can keep up (or read summaries online).



Wandavision had a tight focus on the plot.  It just was subtle the first two episodes.  And I'm not sure about what quality dips you are referring to.  But you are spot on with the slower pace that a TV miniseries takes vs. movie.  The movie being both atomically whole - no one watches half a movie and expects it to be complete - and much shorter in total length will have a faster pace.

But MCU as a whole doesn't seem to require watching anything else, other works in the universe just enhance it.  WandaVision made the most sense with an introduction to the characters, so D+ put out short spotlights on them.  They also did the same for Sam and Bucky as we head into F+WS.


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## Paul Farquhar

Tonguez said:


> Androids, Aliens and Wizards



Oh my!


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## trappedslider




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## trappedslider

First reactions are out and they are positive ‘Falcon and the Winter Soldier’ First Reactions Praise ‘Pulse Pounding Action’ and Depth


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## Morrus

All first reactions for anything are positive. The first reactions to WW1984 and Rise of Skywalker were overwhelmingly positive.









						ZACK SNYDER'S JUSTICE LEAGUE: First Social Media Reactions Land Early And They're Overwhelmingly Positive
					

HBO Max has lifted the embargo on social media reactions for Zack Snyder's Justice League a day early, and these are absolutely glowing! Find out more details on what exactly you can expect right here...




					www.comicbookmovie.com
				




Just wait till it comes out. These 'first reactions' are always the same, and they rarely reflect the opinion two days after release.

I'm sure this is going to be great, but I've no interest in the usual gushing 'first reactions' from people given advance screenings.


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## trappedslider




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## trappedslider

Didn't expect that cameo. Looks like it takes place a few months after Endgame, also if a line is anything to go by life span has dropped.  It's a good opening I think.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Yes, more time jumping in this one. WandaVision a few weeks after the return Snap. This one about 6 months after. The 2nd Spiderman film even further into the future. But it looks like by the time the 3rd Spiderman film is released, the rest of the MCU will have caught up to it timewise.

edit: went back and checked a couple of the MCU dates. Stark's funeral is Oct 2023, school trip in Spiderman 2 is June/July 2024, so about 9 months later. Wandavision a few weeks after the funeral. This show is 6 months after, maybe a little less, so maybe Feb or March of 2024. I wonder where Doctor Strange 2 will fit in there and if Spiderman 3 will happen right after Spiderman 2, or if there will another time jump?


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## Blue

Can't wait!  Disney is really leveraging it's IP.


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## Omand

Planning to watch tonight.

The trailers have got me interested, let's see if the show sustains that.

Cheers


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## ShinHakkaider

Liked the first episode ALOT. This looks like it's going to be a lot of character building interspersed with feature film quality action. 
I love the civilian lives of Sam and Bucky and how Bucky is DEFINITELY still haunted by the things he's done as The Winter Soldier. 

It's going to be slow burn this one but i think that its going to be good.


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## Stalker0

Was a solid first episode. I am really enjoying that they are using the TV shows to kind of fill in gaps about things like the blip and so on.


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## Blue

Trying to stay spoiler free.

Really enjoyed this one, and a closer look at their lives.  Plus good setup for the rest of the episodes.  Big budget action sequence.  Nice cameo.  And the end of the episode definitely has me wanting to see what's next.

Thumbs up.


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## Blue

Stalker0 said:


> Was a solid first episode. I am really enjoying that they are using the TV shows to kind of fill in gaps about things like the blip and so on.



I think this is something that was at least partially because of change in viewing habits with the pandemic.  Lots of big films pushed back, including MCU files like Black Widow that they had already started advertising.  Disney has been focusing on their streaming platform, but it's really easy to watch a bunch of movies and then cancel, so they need to anchor people are already subscribers.  They have all this wonderful IP, and by being willing to spend more than an episode of TV normally costs (actors, CGI, etc), they instead keep (bigNum) subscribers months after month.  And we get high quality shows like Mandalorian, WandaVision, and this.


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## pukunui

Is this one worth watching if I haven’t seen any of the Captain America or Avengers films?

I really enjoyed WandaVision.


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## Omand

pukunui said:


> Is this one worth watching if I haven’t seen any of the Captain America or Avengers films?
> 
> I really enjoyed WandaVision.



If you enjoyed WandaVision then I think you should be OK.

There are certainly parts where having seen all of those movies will add to the experience, but pretty much everything you need to know (with just a few little bits) is covered in the episode.

If you watch the trailer and the little cameo pieces (about 3 minutes each) they have done for Falcon and the Winter Soldier (just like Wanda and Vision) then you will be fine.

Cheers


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## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> Is this one worth watching if I haven’t seen any of the Captain America or Avengers films?
> 
> I really enjoyed WandaVision.




Watch the Legends episodes about the two characters first and you should be good to go. That is why they are making these about the main characters for the series, for people who have not kept up with the movies and for people who don't remember all the details.


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## pukunui

Cool. Thanks guys! I have watched the trailers and found them intriguing enough to want to check this out.


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## hawkeyefan

That was a very solid first episode. Some good character stuff. A but of action. A bit of mystery. Some social tension. 

Definitely will be keeping with this. Hopefully this is a strong indication of the quality we can expect.


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## FitzTheRuke

I was surprised to find myself underwhelmed with the trailers, and then equally surprised to find that I LOVED the first episode. Really great stuff.


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## MoonSong

I don't know, on one hand I loved it. On the other hand... I'm worried they are going to be heavy handed with the metaphor...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

I am not sure I care about that boat/family business thing at all. 
The character drama in Wandavision worked because it fueled the whole story of why strange things are happening. But this sounds like it could be like the Palmer-family-drama in 24 - stuff that we can mostly use as excuse to explain why we never see Jack Bauer on the toilet or stuck in LA traffic. But the story is still pretty open so far and it might be a bit premature to judge its influence or relevance to the story.
Overall I enjoyed it. Some good action and some nice character work.


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## Paul Farquhar

I suspect it's intended to set up Sam being tempted by mercenary work. How are superheroes supposed to make a living?


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## hawkeyefan

Yeah the family business seems to be to give Sam some motivation and also lend some context. I have a feeling there will be some parallels to Sam’s decision about the shield and this new Captain America.


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## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> I suspect it's intended to set up Sam being tempted by mercenary work. How are superheroes supposed to make a living?






hawkeyefan said:


> Yeah the family business seems to be to give Sam some motivation and also lend some context. I have a feeling there will be some parallels to Sam’s decision about the shield and this new Captain America.



I could see these factors leading into Sam becoming employed as a mentor / trainer to the new Captain America, leading to much personal angst as he starts to realise just how much abler and better suited he is to the role than the guy who's actually doing it.

Ultimately I figure this new Captain America will wind up being either a turncoat or a redshirt. Hard to say which at this point.


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## nevin

MarkB said:


> I could see these factors leading into Sam becoming employed as a mentor / trainer to the new Captain America, leading to much personal angst as he starts to realise just how much abler and better suited he is to the role than the guy who's actually doing it.
> 
> Ultimately I figure this new Captain America will wind up being either a turncoat or a redshirt. Hard to say which at this



My guess is he's Hydra


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## moriantumr

The family fishing boat loan scene and the reveal of Captain America also set up the fact that despite being a hero, in America, he is still subjected to racism


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## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> Ultimately I figure this new Captain America will wind up being either a turncoat or a redshirt. Hard to say which at this point.





nevin said:


> My guess is he's Hydra




In the comics, John Walker, AKA US Agent, turns out to be corrupt and too violent and he and Sam/Falcon have a lot of conflict between them. Whether they follow that path in the show or not, who knows, but the expression on his face when he is introduced at the press conference already makes me want to tag him as an ass, good guy or not.


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## RangerWickett

The actor who played Unique, the young guy in the alley, plays Magic at my card shop here in Atlanta. He's a good guy. I hope it wasn't just a single scene. I've been watching him try to get a break in the industry for a while.


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## Rune

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> In the comics, John Walker, AKA US Agent, turns out to be corrupt and too violent and he and Sam/Falcon have a lot of conflict between them. Whether they follow that path in the show or not, who knows, but the expression on his face when he is introduced at the press conference already makes me want to tag him as an ass, good guy or not.



It’s worth pointing out that his MCU uniform includes a sidearm. Whether or not he ever uses it in the show, it’s part of the image the government is selling in the new Captain America. 

Which is probably pretty much the same image they tried to sell with the old one.


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## Stalker0

Paul Farquhar said:


> I suspect it's intended to set up Sam being tempted by mercenary work. How are superheroes supposed to make a living?



As far as I know, the Sokovia Accords did pass right? I mean sure Cap had his little rebellion but as far as I know the accords were not rescinded, so in theory any superhero should be bound to the government but also should receive some form of pay.


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## Zardnaar

Fun episode.


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## MarkB

Stalker0 said:


> As far as I know, the Sokovia Accords did pass right? I mean sure Cap had his little rebellion but as far as I know the accords were not rescinded, so in theory any superhero should be bound to the government but also should receive some form of pay.



Sam certainly still seems bound to the government (he's working with the military in the opening action sequence) but I don't know if that arrangement ever included funding. Maybe they assumed Stark would foot the bills.

I wonder how the Sokovia accords weathered the Blip. Certainly none of the Avengers waited for government clearance before leaping into action against Thanos's forces, and when Rogers and Romanov are coordinating efforts across and beyond the world during the intervening time between Thanos's death and Scott Lang's re-appearance, there's no sense of government oversight there. I'm pretty sure they didn't clear the whole time-travel Infinity Stones heist plan with the UN either.


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## hawkeyefan

MarkB said:


> I could see these factors leading into Sam becoming employed as a mentor / trainer to the new Captain America, leading to much personal angst as he starts to realise just how much abler and better suited he is to the role than the guy who's actually doing it.
> 
> Ultimately I figure this new Captain America will wind up being either a turncoat or a redshirt. Hard to say which at this point.




Depends on how much they draw from the comics. The character in question has been a near outright villain to a misguided but well-intentioned foil to an outright hero. 

My guess is some mix of the first two. 



moriantumr said:


> The family fishing boat loan scene and the reveal of Captain America also set up the fact that despite being a hero, in America, he is still subjected to racism




Yup. Oh you helped restore half the population of the universe and then beat the guy who had done it? Wow, thanks...but, no....we can’t grant you a loan. 

I imagine that’s just a small taste of what we’ll see.


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## Stalker0

hawkeyefan said:


> Yup. Oh you helped restore half the population of the universe and then beat the guy who had done it? Wow, thanks...but, no....we can’t grant you a loan.
> 
> I imagine that’s just a small taste of what we’ll see.



I appreciate the imagery of it, though realistically the only thing stopping Sam in theory is pride. I cannot imagine that Pepper Potts would not give Sam either a loan or most likely just a good chunk of money to get his life back in order if he were to ask. 

Hell....Sam just needs to start a gofundme. With the crazy amount of money some people have been able to get on that thing, you can't tell me a literal world saving hero couldn't get money to save his parents business!


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## hawkeyefan

Stalker0 said:


> I appreciate the imagery of it, though realistically the only thing stopping Sam in theory is pride. I cannot imagine that Pepper Potts would not give Sam either a loan or most likely just a good chunk of money to get his life back in order if he were to ask.
> 
> Hell....Sam just needs to start a gofundme. With the crazy amount of money some people have been able to get on that thing, you can't tell me a literal world saving hero couldn't get money to save his parents business!




Ha true. Although we don’t know if all the turmoil caused by the blip has disrupted crowd sourcing.


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## trappedslider

So, the mean banker says that they tightened up the rules for the SBA loans in the wake of the Blip, I wonder what other rules gotten tightened up.


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## BRayne

Sam mentioned he had government contracts during the loan scene so he's getting paid going forward but he couldn't get the loan because he has a few months at most of income from that and then nothing since before Civil War (and also yeah racism)


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## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> So, the mean banker says that they tightened up the rules for the SBA loans in the wake of the Blip, I wonder what other rules gotten tightened up.



Insurance is probably a serious mess. Would life insurance policies have had to pay out in the wake of the Snap? If so, did they try to reclaim those costs after the Blip? Are there plentiful new clauses providing exclusions for Acts of Big Purple Alien?

The banker's remarks seemed to imply that there were some lingering doubts regarding identity where the Unsnapped are concerned. And even if those are cleared up, chain of ownership is an issue. If you've been dead for five years, your house has probably been resold or repossessed - but if you do manage to get it back, do you need to cover five years of mortgage repayments?


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## Enevhar Aldarion

BRayne said:


> Sam mentioned he had government contracts during the loan scene so he's getting paid going forward but he couldn't get the loan because he has a few months at most of income from that and then nothing since before Civil War (and also yeah racism)




The writers and/or directors have said this series will deal some with racism, so it is going to be real interesting how we are able to discuss the show and how that is a part of it without going over the line and breaking the rules here, right @Morrus and @Umbran ?


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## Umbran

I


Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The writers and/or directors have said this series will deal some with racism, so it is going to be real interesting how we are able to discuss the show and how that is a part of it without going over the line and breaking the rules here, right @Morrus and @Umbran ?




Yeah, if the show goes there, it can get touchy.

I would recommend folks be very thoughtful of how they address matters here - because if a moderator gets the show spoiled because someone in here can't manage to keep their inner jerk in check... the moderator in question will not be pleased.  At all.


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## billd91

nevin said:


> My guess is he's Hydra



Probably not - and I sure hope not, it's time to explore other sources of conflict instead of "oh, yeah, it's Hydra". If they play it like the comics, Walker will exhibit the negatives of patriotism such as when wedded with excessive nationalism as a counterpart to how Cap exhibited the positives of patriotism wedded with idealism.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

By the way, did everyone pay attention to the backgrounds during the end credit sequence? There were three major teasers/easter eggs:



Spoiler



The name of a villain from the comic books, the Power Broker, and the name of an island from the X-Men comics, Madripoor. were both shown. As well as an image of a blue vial which may be a variation of the super serum.


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## Imaculata

I liked the first episode, but I'm not hooked yet. I suspect that much like Wandavision, it will take 2 more episodes to really get rolling.

However, I like the character work in this episode. The big budget action scene that the episode opens with, is really well done. But I find the character stuff way more compelling. Just seeing the aftermath of the blip is interesting. I also find the supporting cast likeable. They did a good job casting Falcon's family.

I suspect the new Captain America is going to be bad news. I'm looking forward to seeing them escalate that, and I'm also intrigued by how the show addresses racism. If done well, this show could become culturally very significant. 

I felt another show that tackled racism, Lovecraft Country, really did so poorly. Plus that show's writing went off the rails almost immediately, and its message felt very heavy handed and insincere.

So far, it seems FatWS is more subtle in its depiction of racism. It feels more honest, and dare I say realistic? I hope their character work remains as solid throughout the show, and I hope we get a compelling mystery like Wandavision did. Truth be told, neither Falcon nor Wintersoldier were ever very interesting characters to me. But I'm looking forward to this show changing my mind on that.

Lastly, is that red hand symbol something from the comics that went over my head?


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## hopeless

I believe that blue serum is from the Black Widow movie.
That's why I assumed this would come out after the movie rather than Wandavision.
I think that hand symbol is referring to Flag Smasher a villain from the comics.


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## Blue

MarkB said:


> Insurance is probably a serious mess. Would life insurance policies have had to pay out in the wake of the Snap? If so, did they try to reclaim those costs after the Blip? Are there plentiful new clauses providing exclusions for Acts of Big Purple Alien?
> 
> The banker's remarks seemed to imply that there were some lingering doubts regarding identity where the Unsnapped are concerned. And even if those are cleared up, chain of ownership is an issue. If you've been dead for five years, your house has probably been resold or repossessed - but if you do manage to get it back, do you need to cover five years of mortgage repayments?



Contracts often have clauses to exclude Force Majeure - natural or unavoidable extraordinary and uncontrollable (by the parties of the contract) events such as war, etc.  The Blip would qualify as one of those.  Google leads me to believe that it's common in insurance of various types at least in the US but IANAL.

On the other hand "you don't have any work records for the past five years" feels like bunk and racism.  We know that by Spiderman: Far from Home (which is still months in the future, but hey) the school systems at the very least have dealt with this.  Those coming back seem like they would definitely need help to get back on their feet - even if it was a high risk (so high interest) loans the banks should be salivating at getting all of those and amortizing (is that the right word) their risk over a larger number of high interest contracts..  (IAANAB: I am also not a banker.)

What to do in regards of the identity and property of the those brought back by the Snap is another deal, likely one determined at a governmental level.  I really can't see the identity still lingering, as it would affect literally half of the people in your country.  I can imaging the property still being undecided because there's people with money and special interests in there as well that can muddy the waters (at least in the US).


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## Blue

Just brainstorming, but what if new Cap doesn't suck?  Like, we're all set up for him to be bad news, and he very well may not be as Sam Wilson would have been, and even try hard but screw up, but not be a bad guy.  I think that there's already a lot of expectations, and we do see Sam with The Shield in the trailer, but I think now that they've set expectations, they could throw us for a loop.  (And then potentially double down on the original and throw us for a second loop.)


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## Blue

hopeless said:


> I believe that blue serum is from the Black Widow movie.
> That's why I assumed this would come out after the movie rather than Wandavision.
> I think that hand symbol is referring to Flag Smasher a villain from the comics.



Wasn't blue serum what Winter Soldier took from the back of Howard Stark's car in Civil War?  And was used to make the other Winter Soldiers?  That's a solid character connection to Bucky as well.

Plus if we remember, the super soldier serum amplified what was already within you.  Steve Rogers was that idealistic and everything and that got amplified, while Red Skull had his effect from the serum.  So if that's in play it can have very different effects on who it gets administered to.


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## MoonSong

Imaculata said:


> I felt another show that tackled racism, Lovecraft Country, really did so poorly. Plus that show's writing went off the rails almost immediately, and its message felt very heavy handed and insincere.



I don't know, to me it felt a bit unsubtle and blatant. The senator and the banker felt like they were going to turn into caricatures at any time. And Sam's sister wasn't helping with her predisposition -although this was very realistic, which is sad-. I want to see if they can handle it better.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

MoonSong said:


> I don't know, to me it felt a bit unsubtle and blatant. The senator and the banker felt like they were going to turn into caricatures at any time. And Sam's sister wasn't helping with her predisposition -although this was very realistic, which is sad-. I want to see if they can handle it better.




I think the banker was more subtle than you are seeing. If I were to close my eyes and just listen to the reasons given and not know he was talking to a black man in Louisiana, I would have not heard anything out of the ordinary in that loan denial. Sure, Sam is a national hero, but his sources of income are also erratic and all over the place and not consistent enough to make regular payments. Remember also this was not just some random loan, they already had business with that bank and have a mortgage or loan or something on the family home, and they were trying to consolidate it all together and get extra money to start his sister's business. For all the bank knew, Sam was going to disappear again and there would be no one to pay back the money. That is part of the reality of the world post-Snap and return-Snap. That is a much bigger factor than whether it was racially motivated or not.


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## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I think the banker was more subtle than you are seeing. If I were to close my eyes and just listen to the reasons given and not know he was talking to a black man in Louisiana, I would have not heard anything out of the ordinary in that loan denial. Sure, Sam is a national hero, but his sources of income are also erratic and all over the place and not consistent enough to make regular payments. Remember also this was not just some random loan, they already had business with that bank and have a mortgage or loan or something on the family home, and they were trying to consolidate it all together and get extra money to start his sister's business. For all the bank knew, Sam was going to disappear again and there would be no one to pay back the money. That is part of the reality of the world post-Snap and return-Snap. That is a much bigger factor than whether it was racially motivated or not.



Also Sam's profession is to throw himself into extreme danger. On a purely statistical level, his percentile chances of still being around this time next year probably just barely scrape into double digits.


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## hopeless

I think that serum was tampered with, but until the Black Widow movie comes out there's no way to know for sure, but some theories involve it being the Red Room version that acts like the super soldier serum but leaves the recipient more gullible or at least under the control of their leader in the new Cap's case that would be Ross.
IF that is the case it will badly effect his mental state as unlike Steve Rogers he isn't as idealistic or as morally scrupulous, which is where he will likely end up fighting Bucky and Falcon.
I'm far more interested in this series than Wandavision, but now will wait for the Black Widow movie first as I think that should have been released before this.


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## Marc_C

We liked it. Promising start. Fun to have George St-Pierre, our local boy, in the series.


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## MarkB

Marc_C said:


> We liked it. Promising start. Fun to have George St-Pierre, our local boy, in the series.



It was good to see him back. He was a stand-out character for his short appearance in Winter Soldier, so it'll be interesting if we get to see him more fleshed out.


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## ShinHakkaider

Imaculata said:


> I felt another show that tackled racism, Lovecraft Country, really did so poorly. Plus that show's writing went off the rails almost immediately, and its message felt very heavy handed and insincere.



I thought the racism shown in Lovecraft Country was pretty accurate maybe even not quite as bad as it actually was. It was the early 1950's after all. 

And the racism to be shown in TFATWS can afford to be subtle because it's more in line with the times. 

I want to really enjoy this show and I think I will. But I'm going to definitely have to stay away from discussion boards like this one after the next few episodes.


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## Zaukrie

Big fan of that episode.  Big fan.


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## MarkB

hopeless said:


> I believe that blue serum is from the Black Widow movie.
> That's why I assumed this would come out after the movie rather than Wandavision.
> I think that hand symbol is referring to Flag Smasher a villain from the comics.



I haven't read or heard much about the Black Widow movie, and I mostly want to keep it that way, but in the most general of general terms, do we know whether it takes place before the Blip, or during it?


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## FitzTheRuke

MarkB said:


> I haven't read or heard much about the Black Widow movie, and I mostly want to keep it that way, but in the most general of general terms, do we know whether it takes place before the Blip, or during it?



Pretty sure that it will be years before the blip, at least for the most part.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> I haven't read or heard much about the Black Widow movie, and I mostly want to keep it that way, but in the most general of general terms, do we know whether it takes place before the Blip, or during it?




Maybe not quite as far back as Captain Marvel, but still years before Infinity War, so the Black Widow movie is a prequel and origin story for Natasha, and all the other women trained like her, who could also use the same code name. If all goes well, I expect someone to come out of that movie as the new Black Widow for Phase 4.


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## Omand

MarkB said:


> I haven't read or heard much about the Black Widow movie, and I mostly want to keep it that way, but in the most general of general terms, do we know whether it takes place before the Blip, or during it?



I believe it has been stated that the Black Widow movie takes place after Captain America: Civil War and before Avengers: Infinity War.

Or at least, that was the original statement before all of the delays in release.  I suppose they could have updated things a bit.  That said, the hairstyle and general look that Scarlet Johansson is shown in the advertising is closer to her Civil War look.  Especially telling is her red hair, it is blond by the time of Infinity War.

Cheers


----------



## Imaculata

ShinHakkaider said:


> I thought the racism shown in Lovecraft Country was pretty accurate maybe even not quite as bad as it actually was. It was the early 1950's after all.




I feel amidst the chaotic plots, the racism in LC  became almost cartoonish and some of the message was lost. This is just my personal opinion, but I feel that when you portray the racists as cartoon villains who also dabble in black magic, the message gets lost. It is no longer relatable. But showing Falcon being denied a loan by a man who is not a cartoon villain, I feel gets the message across better.



ShinHakkaider said:


> I want to really enjoy this show and I think I will. But I'm going to definitely have to stay away from discussion boards like this one after the next few episodes.




Well, people have shown restraint with the spoilers in regards to Wandavision. For at least a few days after an episode airs, people on this forum avoid putting spoilers in the thread. I will try to do the same.


----------



## trappedslider

I'll have to rewatch it,but it seems to me that the banker was denying the loan based on actual rules and not because Sam's black,unless you're all saying the rules themselves are racist.

I'm pretty sure that if loans were done the way they were back in ye olden days,all based on character, not credit score or other rules Sam would have gotten the loan.


----------



## Imaculata

trappedslider said:


> I'll have to rewatch it, but it seems to me that the banker was denying the loan based on actual rules and not because Sam's black, unless you're all saying the rules themselves are racist.




It seemed a little of both. The banker stated the rules as an excuse, but there was implied racism hiding underneath.


----------



## Marc_C

Imaculata said:


> It seemed a little of both. The banker stated the rules as an excuse, but there was implied racism hiding underneath.



I didn't see the underlying racism. What I saw is a white man with awkward social skills who could only think of himself (selfies) but in the end acted as a number crunching machine. I once faced a similar situation a long time ago. The colour of my white skin didn't get me a loan. Too much of a risk.


----------



## Imaculata

Marc_C said:


> I didn't see the underlying racism. What I saw is a white man with awkward social skills who could only think of himself (selfies) but in the end acted as a number crunching machine. I once faced a similar situation a long time ago. The colour of my white skin didn't get me a loan. Too much of a risk.




I suppose that is why it is a subtle scene. Some may see racism, while others might not.


----------



## Marc_C

Imaculata said:


> I suppose that is why it is a subtle scene. Some may see racism, while others might not.



As spectators we all bring our personal experience when watching a tv show or movie. It colours our perception and we attribute meaning to the scene. Often attributing meaning the director and writer didn't intend.

As per my training in film studies at university you must analyze a scene with was is actually in it. There must be a sentence, a telling camera shot or facial expression that states the person is racist. Otherwise you are in the realm of personal interpretation. I didn't see any of that in the banker scene. In fact the banker is a fan of Falcon. A racist wouldn't be a fan of a black person regardless of who he is. (it was pointed out this was wrong. After re-reading myself I agree.)


----------



## MarkB

Marc_C said:


> In fact the banker is a fan of Falcon. A racist wouldn't be a fan of a black person regardless of who he is.



Yeah, no. Celebrities are celebrities regardless of race. It's part and parcel of judging someone on appearances instead of treating them as an individual.

Notice that, although the banker is happy to meet someone so famous, he doesn't _respect_ him in the slightest. Thus the asking him to flap his arms for a selfie.


----------



## Imaculata

Marc_C said:


> As spectators we all bring our personal experience when watching a tv show or movie. It colours our perception and we attribute meaning to the scene. Often attributing meaning the director and writer didn't intend.




I agree. And for the record, I'm not stating for a fact that the scene we are talking about was about racism. I just interpreted it as such. And it would seem I am not alone in that interpretation.



Marc_C said:


> As per my training in film studies at university you must analyze a scene with what is actually in it. There must be a sentence, a telling camera shot or facial expression that states the person is racist.




Well, I saw implied racism in the scene based on the reaction of Falcon and his sister.



Marc_C said:


> Otherwise you are in the realm of personal interpretation.




I think you are in the realm of personal interpretation regardless, unless the creators explicitly state what a scene is about. And even then, sometimes the meaning stated by the creator can be dismissed by the viewer. Death of the author and all.


----------



## megamania

trappedslider said:


> I'll have to rewatch it,but it seems to me that the banker was denying the loan based on actual rules and not because Sam's black,unless you're all saying the rules themselves are racist.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that if loans were done the way they were back in ye olden days,all based on character, not credit score or other rules Sam would have gotten the loan.




That was my thoughts also.  This showed how being a hero has its limits and also-  possible plot points in the future.

"I can save your sister's business if you overlook this shipment.   Overlooking is not illegal.  Think of how much it would mean to her."


----------



## wicked cool

Many who are implying racism need to try and start a business with no income/tons of debt etc. Your not getting the loan. He asks Falcon if theres any income from being a super. Probably changes the outcome of the decision if he did. Falcon is trying to hold onto a dream and this scene could foreshadow them doing something to get money (I can see mercenary work down the line)

Falcons scenes in the beginning were great television and I hope we get more of that

Buckys past is going to be really interesting once people figure it out


----------



## hawkeyefan

Imaculata said:


> I feel amidst the chaotic plots, the racism in LC became almost cartoonish and some of the message was lost. This is just my personal opinion, but I feel that when you portray the racists as cartoon villains who also dabble in black magic, the message gets lost.




Although I agree at times LC leaned into some cartoonish villainy, I thought that at other times, the kind of sudden and extreme racism the characters encountered was similar to the way mythos monsters would suddenly intrude upon reality. That kind of comparison between supernatural horror and a real, tangible horror worked for me. 

Like, who needs tentacled monstrosities to come along out of nowhere when we have perfectly good mundane monsters ready to go?



Marc_C said:


> As per my training in film studies at university you must analyze a scene with was is actually in it. There must be a sentence, a telling camera shot or facial expression that states the person is racist. Otherwise you are in the realm of personal interpretation. I didn't see any of that in the banker scene. In fact the banker is a fan of Falcon. A racist wouldn't be a fan of a black person regardless of who he is.




I don't think that the banker was necessarily a racist so much as he was simply a representative of a system that is in ways inherently racist. His etiquette puts him in a bad light, for sure, but I don't think that alone is enough to say he's a racist. But he's not willing to give them a loan, which confirms Falcon's sister's expectations, which I think are based on race.

There is no flashing red caption at the bottom of the screen "THIS IS ABOUT RACISM", but there seems to be some hints in there. I expect that we'll see more of this come up as the series moves along, and then I think the context of this scene may become more obvious.


----------



## billd91

wicked cool said:


> Many who are implying racism need to try and start a business with no income/tons of debt etc. Your not getting the loan. He asks Falcon if theres any income from being a super. Probably changes the outcome of the decision if he did. Falcon is trying to hold onto a dream and this scene could foreshadow them doing something to get money (I can see mercenary work down the line)



This isn't about starting a business - this is about consolidating debts that already exist for a business that already exists and has banked there for 2 generations.


----------



## MarkB

billd91 said:


> This isn't about starting a business - this is about consolidating debts that already exist for a business that already exists and has banked there for 2 generations.



And which presumably needed to look elsewhere for those loans in the first place because the bank they'd used for 2 generations didn't consider them a good risk. Why would that have changed?


----------



## wicked cool

billd91 said:


> This isn't about starting a business - this is about consolidating debts that already exist for a business that already exists and has banked there for 2 generations.



banking there for generations went away pre 1970 plus it appears they don't have a lot of cash in the bank. Basically the sister will need to file bankruptcy and get government assistance  

We had a crisis when loans (housing) were given to families that didn't have the ability to repay the loan. The mortgage industry collapsed about 15 years ago. the banking industry is heavily regulated by the federal government in the USA.  the us government has stepped in right now during the pandemic to prevent landlords from throwing people out of their homes/raising rent    

loans including consolidation are based on your ability to repay the loan back (they are looking for a bigger loan as they need consolidation plus cash fyi). they don't have the ability to repay the loan back as they don't have any income. the sister is selling the boat as she doesnt have money to fix it and falcon clearly cant based on the fix it scene

the only thing hes guilty of is treating Falcon like a celebrity and acting like a fool. He could potentially damage the reputation of the bank and should be spoken to by management over that   

banking now is all numbers based and a tract record of 2 years of positive income over debt. 


now Nick fury probably has a different outcome when walking into the same bank to start the same business . He has demonstrated a steady income (more than likely Nick fury is making well over 6 figures). Has considerable assets etc. Don Cheadles character is probably also in the same boat

I would say 3/4 of the current avengers don't get the loan
Thor-No assets, no job
antman-criminal record?, no job, no assets 

If you think about it without Stark many of the avengers are practically homeless/wanted by the law etc

theres so many real world celebrities when they run out of money they have to get jobs in the private sector. the smart ones start a business while they are getting income

you go to a 2nd tier comicon and you get celebrities making money off autographs because they need the money. Otherwise they would do what Falcon tried to do.

Lebron James-used part of his own money to buy part of the redsox. He didn't use his name he used his wallet   

Do a quick search on Gary Colemam-big celeb in the 70's-made close to 18 million. lost most of it and worked as a mall security guard before he died


----------



## Zaukrie

MarkB said:


> Yeah, no. Celebrities are celebrities regardless of race. It's part and parcel of judging someone on appearances instead of treating them as an individual.
> 
> Notice that, although the banker is happy to meet someone so famous, he doesn't _respect_ him in the slightest. Thus the asking him to flap his arms for a selfie.



This.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

Marc_C said:


> A racist wouldn't be a fan of a black person regardless of who he is.



There are plenty of racist sports and movie fans who like specific black athletes and actors/performers but who hands down DON'T like black people. I've experienced this repeatedly in my almost 50 years on this planet. 

Your statement is just wrong. Flat out WRONG.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

America has a history of racial discrimination when it comes to housing and mortgages and business loans. A LONG history of it. For some of you its easy enough to say well Sam was at fault. There have been tests done by civil rights orgs who have sent a black couple in to apply for a loan / mortgage and they've been rejected only to send a white couple with the SAME EXACT income requirements and financials in and get approved. 

And the entire time the bank loan officer is friendly and professional. A lot of people in power with these biases ARENT open, sneering cartoon villains. They're our children's teachers, our doctors, our bosses, our mechanics and yes...our bank loan officers. 

That's part of the reality that the writers are trying to get across I think. It was something that I picked up on almost immediately and the actor playing the loan officer (deliberately) does an excellent job of being disarming and almost harmless. Hell, the character may even be unaware that his biases are coloring his decisions. It dosent make his decisions any less impactful. 

I think that, and I dont mean this as a slight or slam, people might want to start getting used to viewing things from a different point of view than the mainstream. Especially as more and more writers and creators and characters of color are being put out there and are writing from real life experiences. and not writing things to make the mainstream feel better about themselves.


----------



## Marc_C

ShinHakkaider said:


> America has a history of racial discrimination when it comes to housing and mortgages and business loans. A LONG history of it. For some of you its easy enough to say well Sam was at fault. There have been tests done by civil rights orgs who have sent a black couple in to apply for a loan / mortgage and they've been rejected only to send a white couple with the SAME EXACT income requirements and financials in and get approved.
> 
> And the entire time the bank loan officer is friendly and professional. A lot of people in power with these biases ARENT open, sneering cartoon villains. They're our children's teachers, our doctors, our bosses, our mechanics and yes...our bank loan officers.
> 
> That's part of the reality that the writers are trying to get across I think. It was something that I picked up on almost immediately and the actor playing the loan officer (deliberately) does an excellent job of being disarming and almost harmless. Hell, the character may even be unaware that his biases are coloring his decisions. It dosent make his decisions any less impactful.
> 
> I think that, and I dont mean this as a slight or slam, people might want to start getting used to viewing things from a different point of view than the mainstream. Especially as more and more writers and creators and characters of color are being put out there and are writing from real life experiences. and not writing things to make the mainstream feel better about themselves.




Facts:

The sister said she is loosing 10$ for each 5$ she makes.
Falcon has no stable income.
The boat is a wreck.
The house is mortgaged already.

Predictable Outcome:
- The banker doesn't give them a loan.

As others have said the purpose of the scene is to put Falcon into a bad position. He could be tempted to do illegal things to keep his families assets. Will he fall for it? Stay tuned!


----------



## hawkeyefan

I think that's one of the things that makes systemic racism so tricky.....it's easy to deny. Overt racism is obvious and hard to mask. But some subtle stuff like who gets a loan and who doesn't may be much easier to hide. 

And while I admit, it's quite possible that's not what the scene intended to show, I do think that it was a part of it, and I expect that kind of thing to become increasingly prominent as we move forward. Just looking at the comic runs that may have inspired this show, it seems very likely. 

We'll have to see how the show goes, and then maybe look back at this scene to see if later developments lend new context.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

hawkeyefan said:


> I think that's one of the things that makes systemic racism so tricky.....it's easy to deny. Overt racism is obvious and hard to mask. But some subtle stuff like who gets a loan and who doesn't may be much easier to hide.
> 
> And while I admit, it's quite possible that's not what the scene intended to show, I do think that it was a part of it, and I expect that kind of thing to become increasingly prominent as we move forward. Just looking at the comic runs that may have inspired this show, it seems very likely.



And see, this is part of my point and view points like YOURS are ones I'm willing to engage because as you said IT IS hard to discern sometimes. But for those of us who have been subjected to it frequently and consistently its not something that we can afford to dismiss out of hand.


----------



## Marc_C

hawkeyefan said:


> I think that's one of the things that makes systemic racism so tricky.....it's easy to deny. Overt racism is obvious and hard to mask. But some subtle stuff like who gets a loan and who doesn't may be much easier to hide.
> 
> And while I admit, it's quite possible that's not what the scene intended to show, I do think that it was a part of it, and I expect that kind of thing to become increasingly prominent as we move forward. Just looking at the comic runs that may have inspired this show, it seems very likely.
> 
> We'll have to see how the show goes, and then maybe look back at this scene to see if later developments lend new context.



Yep systemic racist is very easy to deny. That is why if you want to put that point across in a scene you have to be clear about it. That doesn't mean you have to resort to caricature or cartoon. The show FBI does it very well. There is no ambiguity. The black agents call out the BS. It's quite refreshing.


----------



## trappedslider

So the banker ask after realizing who Sam is "How do you guys make a living?" then says "his financials are all over the place" then Sam admits that they basically operated on the good will of others. Then the banker says" You couldn't have been living off of good will this whole time." then they get to The Blip and Sam says he currently has government contracts which is proof of earnings and further points out that they qualify for a *SBA loan. * The banker responds "Under the old terms sure, but these days with everyone just showing up, well, things tightened up."

The sister however, makes the statement "funny how things funny how things always tighten around us" implying racism and the banker responds "Easy there, I'm on your side after all he's a hero."

Even in the real world, famous people who are known for one big thing get sick of it, for awhile Chadwick actually had to tell people to stop with the Wakanda forever arms over chest.

Once they get turned down for the loan, Sam's no longer willing to indulge the guy. It seems to me that Sam had hoped that the fact that he's famous would help secure the loan.


----------



## Marc_C

trappedslider said:


> Even in the real world, famous people who are known for one big thing get sick of it, for awhile Chadwick actually had to tell people to stop with the Wakanda forever arms over chest.



You are on to something. I was also thinking how the scene was also about weird Marvel fans who stop actors on the street and ask them to do 'their thing' for a selfie. Anthony Mackie is probably sick of it.


----------



## hawkeyefan

Marc_C said:


> You are on to something. I was also thinking how the scene was also about weird Marvel fans who stop actors on the street and ask them to do 'their thing' for a selfie. Anthony Mackie is probably sick of it.




I would agree that the scene may also have been making some commentary on celebrity. 

It's interesting that we can read such a subtext in the scene based on less than explicit information.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

ShinHakkaider said:


> And see, this is part of my point and view points like YOURS are ones I'm willing to engage because as you said IT IS hard to discern sometimes. But for those of us who have been subjected to it frequently and consistently its not something that we can afford to dismiss out of hand.




It gets deeper, or more subtle, than systemic racism, to the point of unconscious, or sub-conscious, biases. The stuff that happens without someone even being aware they are acting that way or saying those things. Wait til we really get going with the character of Monica Rambeau or Kamala Khan, then we will see the subtle sexism thrown into the mix with the racism. But if these shows are done right, while they won't have any positive impact on the real haters, because racism is all about hate and making someone less than you, hopefully there will be positive change with people and their unconscious biases, those people who do not hate, but still do or say things that make people feel less than equal.


----------



## trappedslider

Falcon & Winter Soldier Star Confirms a Major US Agent/Captain America Difference
					

Falcon and the Winter Soldier star Wyatt Russell confirmed a key difference between John Walker/U.S. Agent and Steve Rogers' Captain America.




					www.cbr.com


----------



## billd91

trappedslider said:


> Once they get turned down for the loan, Sam's no longer willing to indulge the guy. It seems to me that Sam had hoped that the fact that he's famous would help secure the loan.



Probably not because he's famous, per se. Rather, being famous, *he's a known quantity* for being an upstanding guy - someone you can trust to have his naughty word together and do the right thing. And someone the government counts on and so has probably been vetted by the FBI.


----------



## MoonSong

trappedslider said:


> The sister however, makes the statement "funny how things funny how things always tighten around us" implying racism and the banker responds "Easy there, I'm on your side after all he's a hero."



Precisely, Sam qualified for the loan consolidation. He would have gotten it if not for the changed done in the wake of the blip and people returning. However, these terms to shield the bank from a lot of people suddenly returning with no income for five years also happen to disproportionately exclude a lot of impoverished and disenfranchised people (who happen to not be white more often than not).

It would have been more subtle without the sister lampshading this, but it is pretty realist and I understand why they did it. I just hope they don't over do it in the future.


----------



## Morrus

billd91 said:


> And someone the government counts on and so has probably been vetted by the FBI.



Like Wanda?


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> Like Wanda?



Not really. Sam's a US military veteran who still has some credit with the government despite his violation of the Sokovia accords. Wanda's a foreign national who was blamed for the incident that incited the drafting of the accords.


----------



## moriantumr

I thought the banker did not even know who Sam was, until Sam gave him a hint. This can imply that he is not a personal fan of falcon, he is unfamiliar with a family who has used this bank for generations, and/or his unconscious bias is showing that he does not differentiate between people of color. The idea that others all look the same is an age old racist trope.


----------



## Morrus

THE FALCON & THE WINTER SOLDIER Is Officially Disney+'s Biggest Ever Series Premiere
					

Disney has revealed that Marvel's The Falcon and The Winter Soldier is officially the most-watched series premiere ever for the Disney+ streaming service, topping WandaVision and The Mandalorian.




					www.comicbookmovie.com


----------



## Stalker0

moriantumr said:


> I thought the banker did not even know who Sam was, until Sam gave him a hint.



The scene suggests the banker at least suspected it, but wasn't sure. He kept giving Falcon "looks", and that's when Falcon gave him the hints.


----------



## trappedslider

billd91 said:


> Probably not because he's famous, per se. Rather, being famous, *he's a known quantity* for being an upstanding guy - someone you can trust to have his naughty word together and do the right thing. And someone the government counts on and so has probably been vetted by the FBI.



He's exact wording to his sister is "Now you got me" which can mean any number of things, then after being told no for the SBA loan, he's like "are you serious?" when the banker ask for the selfie. So, I think he had hoped that his famous status would help.

From the interactions with his sister, I'm getting the sense that Sam joined the Air force to get away from issues at home ,something his sister didn't/doesn't like since it left her to deal with everything.


----------



## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> From the interactions with his sister, I'm getting the sense that Sam joined the Air force to get away from issues at home ,something his sister didn't/doesn't like since it left her to deal with everything.



I'm also getting the impression that he wants to keep the boat and the business intact mainly because it's this idealised version of his family life that he can look in on whenever he gets homesick, and his sister isn't anywhere near as enthusiastic about it.


----------



## Umbran

MoonSong said:


> I don't know, to me it felt a bit unsubtle and blatant.




Maybe because a lot of racism is unsubtle and blatant?


----------



## Umbran

hawkeyefan said:


> And while I admit, it's quite possible that's not what the scene intended to show, I do think that it was a part of it




The scene was probably intended to show several things, but I agree that showing that there's systemic and personal-level issues impacting POC business owners was likely among them.

The MCU has gained in nuance, such that few characters move along without having emotional complexity - I think this was also designed to showcase that for Sam.  He's not walking around with big PTSD or anything, but he's basically been out of the loop of his family for a long time, having problems reconnecting and having a place, and he's clinging to things like that boat.  His sister is probably correct, and Sam can't fix this with his plans.  In fact, after being absent for so long, it is probably inappropriate for him to expect to be a leader of that business right now. 

I think they laid it out there.  He has two big symbols that mean things to him - the shield, and that boat.  With the shield, he could give it up because he felt the man behind that symbol was gone.  But, the people behind that boat are also gone, but he can't give it up...


----------



## Maxperson

hawkeyefan said:


> Yeah the family business seems to be to give Sam some motivation and also lend some context.



There was no lending going on that I could see.


----------



## tomBitonti

MoonSong said:


> Precisely, Sam qualified for the loan consolidation. He would have gotten it if not for the changed done in the wake of the blip and people returning. However, these terms to shield the bank from a lot of people suddenly returning with no income for five years also happen to disproportionately exclude a lot of impoverished and disenfranchised people (who happen to not be white more often than not).
> 
> It would have been more subtle without the sister lampshading this, but it is pretty realist and I understand why they did it. I just hope they don't over do it in the future.



Ah.  I'm wondering how many people who returned from the blip had no financial assets.  Would all of the disappeared been treated as having died, and their assets distributed?
And, is the implication that the ship was just sitting there for five years, unmaintained, because of the blip?  That adds a welcome detail, but I didn't pick up on it from the show.
Thanks!
TomB


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

tomBitonti said:


> Ah.  I'm wondering how many people who returned from the blip had no financial assets.  Would all of the disappeared been treated as having died, and their assets distributed?




Probably depends on the person and their net worth. You can bet if Bill Gates were among those gone, the court fights over his assets would still be going on when he returned. Also, I think the laws vary greatly around the world for how long someone has to be missing before they can legally be declared dead.


----------



## MoonSong

Umbran said:


> Maybe because a lot of racism is unsubtle and blatant?



It is a matter of context. Remember, I'm not American. In my eyes, these scenes come as very cartoonish, because racism in the society around me doesn't work the same way. Someone acting as blatantly racist as the banker would be quickly branded as a monster. People in here don't behave that way.


----------



## Morrus

tomBitonti said:


> Ah.  I'm wondering how many people who returned from the blip had no financial assets.  Would all of the disappeared been treated as having died, and their assets distributed?



I assume -- given it was half of _everyone_ -- that some emergency legislation would have been passed in every jurisdiction it affected (which is every jurisdiction in the universe). That's also probably not really the stuff of comic book superheroes, so I wouldn't expect much more than a cursory mention at some point, if anything.

Maybe the She Hulk series? She's a lawyer. They could bring it up there.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MoonSong said:


> It is a matter of context. Remember, I'm not American. In my eyes, these scenes come as very cartoonish, because racism in the society around me doesn't work the same way. Someone acting as blatantly racist as the banker would be quickly branded as a monster. People in here don't behave that way.




Except he is just the loan officer, not the guy in charge of the bank, or even the one who has the final say. It really sounded more like he was told no and he tried to be nice about it, he even said he was on their side. So even if he would have had said yes, his bosses said no. While the loan officer character may have subtle biases against some people, it is his bosses who may or may not actually be racist. I see any person of any race, with the same financials and income history, being rejected for that loan.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> Maybe the She Hulk series? She's a lawyer. They could bring it up there.




She Hulk isn't coming out until 2022.  There's at least four, and possibly up to 8 movies that are scheduled to come out before She Hulk.  I'm not sure they're going to spend that much more time rehashing the Blip.


----------



## Dire Bare

trappedslider said:


> I'll have to rewatch it,but it seems to me that the banker was denying the loan based on actual rules and not because Sam's black,unless you're all saying the rules themselves are racist.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that if loans were done the way they were back in ye olden days,all based on character, not credit score or other rules Sam would have gotten the loan.





Marc_C said:


> I didn't see the underlying racism. What I saw is a white man with awkward social skills who could only think of himself (selfies) but in the end acted as a number crunching machine. I once faced a similar situation a long time ago. The colour of my white skin didn't get me a loan. Too much of a risk.



The banker himself wasn't (necessarily) being racist in denying Sam's family a loan . . . it's the more subtle institutional racism that is in play, something that very much continues to be a problem for people of color today.

And institutional racism isn't the only factor in Sam's family troubles, the blip has screwed with society's rules pretty hardcore, including how banks decide to give out loans. Racism as a factor isn't binary (it's racist or not racist), but it's definitely part of the situation.


----------



## Dire Bare

tomBitonti said:


> Ah.  I'm wondering how many people who returned from the blip had no financial assets.  Would all of the disappeared been treated as having died, and their assets distributed?
> And, is the implication that the ship was just sitting there for five years, unmaintained, because of the blip?  That adds a welcome detail, but I didn't pick up on it from the show.
> Thanks!
> TomB



Sam disappeared for 5 years during the blip . . . but the implication is that his sister and (most?) of her family survived and struggled during those 5 years.


----------



## MoonSong

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Except he is just the loan officer, not the guy in charge of the bank, or even the one who has the final say. It really sounded more like he was told no and he tried to be nice about it, he even said he was on their side. So even if he would have had said yes, his bosses said no. While the loan officer character may have subtle biases against some people, it is his bosses who may or may not actually be racist. I see any person of any race, with the same financials and income history, being rejected for that loan.



The loan thing itself is institutional racism, in that part the banker isn't at fault. The problem is his general attitude, not making eye to eye until he figures out Sam is an Avenger. Then he acts with glee, but it isn't innocent glee, he acts as if Sam was a circus animal that can act on command. Then fails to show any kind of empathy when he rejects Sam, and even adds unneeded commentary when rejecting him implicitly comparing the US veteran and known hero to a lowly fraudster. Worse of all, he returns to commanding glee mode right afterwards. The whole deal was very dehumanizing and degrading. Lets not talk about how he treats Sam's sister, not even being able to hide his contempt for her the whole time he doesn't actively behaves as if she wasn't there.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> I'm not sure they're going to spend that much more time rehashing the Blip.



As long as the Marvel machine makes money, they will continue to look for areas to make movies. And if people are interested in that 5 year period, they will as sure as shootin make tv shows and movies covering that area.

I am personally really hoping for a solid movie within that time period, because honestly it must have been horrific. This is civilization ending levels of devastation, entire infrastructures would have been lost. Mass depression and suicide, revivals of religious cults, talks of the rapture. the geopolitical landscape would change overnight, and concerns about nuclear strikes and "which country is responsible for this". The remaining avengers must have been insanely busy keeping various threats from exploding.

Quite frankly, the fact that things are decently back on track ONLY five years later is pretty crazy.

There are a million stories you could tell in such a time period.


----------



## MarkB

tomBitonti said:


> Ah.  I'm wondering how many people who returned from the blip had no financial assets.  Would all of the disappeared been treated as having died, and their assets distributed?



Bear in mind that they basically _had_ died - they literally went up in smoke. And while Thanos's plan was initially known to only a few on Earth, I'd assume that it wasn't kept a secret. So yes, they'd be treated as having died.

Of course, the difficulty is telling apart those who died from people who simply went missing that day, or in the aftermath. The Snap left behind no remains with which to verify death, and establishing witnesses would be a rough task on even a fraction of the full scale of the deaths involved.

And I'm sure a lot of people actually _did_ just go missing in the immediate wake of the Snap. Until the full truth got circulated, it must have looked to most people like some sort of super-virus or biological weapon going off. Anyone who survived the initial effects would probably have literally run to the hills in order to isolate themselves in case it was something they could catch, or a terrorist attack that might be repeated.

With a lot more space suddenly available, and plenty of fuel for paranoia, some of those people may not ever have returned to society at large, even if/when they learned what was actually the cause of it all.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> As long as the Marvel machine makes money, they will continue to look for areas to make movies. And if people are interested in that 5 year period, they will as sure as shootin make tv shows and movies covering that area.




But, planning and execution of movies and series uses years of development time.  The movies that are coming up in 2021 - _Black Widow_, _Shang Chi_, _Eternals_, and _Spider Man: No Way Home_ - all had their production in 2019 and 2020. _Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness_ has started filming, and had it paused by covid.   _Thor: Love and Thunder_ is already filming. These plots are set and moving forward. The studio had, at best, a guess as to what the audience would find compelling, and are not taking out reaction to, say, Wandavision into account.

I don't expect the studio wants to have TV and movies particularly out of sync - so if the movie plots move on, you don't, another year later, expect a series to look backwards, especially at... legal questions of the Blip?  That kind of detail has not been the hallmark of the MCU - heck, we had an entire movie based on conflict with the Sokovia Accords, and we don't even know what they cover in any detail!


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> But, planning and execution of movies and series uses years of development time.  The movies that are coming up in 2021 - _Black Widow_, _Shang Chi_, _Eternals_, and _Spider Man: No Way Home_ - all had their production in 2019 and 2020. _Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness_ has started filming, and had it paused by covid.   _Thor: Love and Thunder_ is already filming. These plots are set and moving forward. The studio had, at best, a guess as to what the audience would find compelling, and are not taking out reaction to, say, Wandavision into account.
> 
> I don't expect the studio wants to have TV and movies particularly out of sync - so if the movie plots move on, you don't, another year later, expect a series to look backwards, especially at... legal questions of the Blip?  That kind of detail has not been the hallmark of the MCU - heck, we had an entire movie based on conflict with the Sokovia Accords, and we don't even know what they cover in any detail!



Its a fair point about the movies, and I think the TV shows are probably a better vehicle to discuss those topics.

As for the desyncing, Captain Marvel and Captain America have already shown that they are willing to do movies in different time periods.

So a tv show that consciously takes us back several years to that time I think is perfectly reasonable for the MCU.

Will they do it? Maybe not right away. But as the cash machine continues to chew through ideas, and they need new material, it seems a very reasonable area to tackle at some point.


----------



## wicked cool

It sort of feels like we are living in the blip right now. 


quick question- Are we getting based on episode 1 of falcon  another super hero? Feel like they hinted at based on the credits picture  that there will be a 3rd hero in the series? Are the bad guys tied to hydra? the symbol we see on the walls a known comic symbol?  

Back to Wanda vision-Monica will have the same super powers as captain marvel? Which one does rogue steal her powers from in the comics? are any of the other agents also potentail super heroes?


----------



## MoonSong

wicked cool said:


> Back to Wanda vision-Monica will have the same super powers as captain marvel? Which one does rogue steal her powers from in the comics? are any of the other agents also potentail super heroes?



It happened to Carol.


----------



## Umbran

wicked cool said:


> quick question- Are we getting based on episode 1 of falcon  another super hero? Feel like they hinted at based on the credits picture  that there will be a 3rd hero in the series?




Expect to see Agent Sharon Carter (aka Agent-13), former agent of SHIELD, and in the MCU the grand-niece of Peggy Carter.  Remember in The Winter Soldier, the woman Steve Rogers sees in his apartment building, doing her laundry.  He chats with her, and there's some talk of him taking her out on a date?  That's her.  I don't know of any big-mane cameos.  We'll see.



wicked cool said:


> Are the bad guys tied to hydra? the symbol we see on the walls a known comic symbol?




Unlikely, but we shall see.  That handprint symbol is new, I think.  Expect to see a return of Baron Zemo, from Civil War as well.



wicked cool said:


> Back to Wanda vision-Monica will have the same super powers as captain marvel?




We don't know.  Probably something similar, but they play a little loose with powers sometimes.



wicked cool said:


> Which one does rogue steal her powers from in the comics?




That would be Carol Danvers.  

I expect that, if they give her a code name, Monica Rambeau will use Photon or Spectrum.  And Kamala Khan will use Ms. Marvel.


----------



## trappedslider

MoonSong said:


> Lets not talk about how he treats Sam's sister, not even being able to hide his contempt for her the whole time he doesn't actively behaves as if she wasn't there.



Maybe that was because she is a she and not because racism? I know a few woman who don't call the auto service department because of how they are treated simply because they are woman.

Not everything is tied into racism....

It's really hard to treat famous people as actual people.   "If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die?"

If ever episode's after talk is gonna go into "is every action racism related or not" I'm not sure i wanna keep talking about the show here. I mean at that point we're going to have to consider every interaction that Bucky has with Sam. Since Bucky was born in 1917.


----------



## meltdownpass

> Jumps into thread
> Immediately sees thread derailed by hateful ideology
> Slowly backs away


----------



## GreyLord

MarkB said:


> Bear in mind that they basically _had_ died - they literally went up in smoke. And while Thanos's plan was initially known to only a few on Earth, I'd assume that it wasn't kept a secret. So yes, they'd be treated as having died.
> 
> Of course, the difficulty is telling apart those who died from people who simply went missing that day, or in the aftermath. The Snap left behind no remains with which to verify death, and establishing witnesses would be a rough task on even a fraction of the full scale of the deaths involved.
> 
> And I'm sure a lot of people actually _did_ just go missing in the immediate wake of the Snap. Until the full truth got circulated, it must have looked to most people like some sort of super-virus or biological weapon going off. Anyone who survived the initial effects would probably have literally run to the hills in order to isolate themselves in case it was something they could catch, or a terrorist attack that might be repeated.
> 
> With a lot more space suddenly available, and plenty of fuel for paranoia, some of those people may not ever have returned to society at large, even if/when they learned what was actually the cause of it all.




Not only that, but how many actually literally died (and did not come back after the blip...like Gamora).  We see a plane crashing and a helicopter pummeling into a building and such.  Cars just run into each other.  In theory, a LOT MORE died or disappeared than simply 1/2 due to the complications of people suddenly disappearing into dust in the middle of whatever it was they were doing.



wicked cool said:


> It sort of feels like we are living in the blip right now.




In a way, you and me both.  I can see how this equates.  Perhaps next time Marvel wants a time jump ahead five years we need a bunch of superheroes to remember what happened this go around and stop them before it happens again.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

trappedslider said:


> Maybe that was because she is a she and not because racism? I know a few woman who don't call the auto service department because of how they are treated simply because they are woman.
> 
> Not everything is tied into racism....
> 
> It's really hard to treat famous people as actual people.   "If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die?"
> 
> If ever episode's after talk is gonna go into "is every action racism related or not" I'm not sure i wanna keep talking about the show here. I mean at that point we're going to have to consider every interaction that Bucky has with Sam. Since Bucky was born in 1917.




Something I have seen as an issue in the past 5-10 years, maybe longer, is to label anything racism, no matter how subtle or unconscious the behavior may be. There is bias and then prejudice and then bigotry and then racism. Real racism generally requires active intent and hate, which sometimes is linked with fear, of the "other". Racists think the "other" is lesser than them, less human. And if the show is going to be covering this important topic more in the other 5 episodes, I really hope we can see the differences in the portrayal. The different reactions just here to how the actor portrayed the loan officer shows that we need more.

And yeah, Sam's sister got the double whammy of subconscious biases of both race and sex in that scene.


----------



## Umbran

trappedslider said:


> Not everything is tied into racism....




Yeah, but consider it this way - if they specifically didn't want us to see it as racism, they could have had the banker be another person of color, and address the sister accordingly. 





trappedslider said:


> It's really hard to treat famous people as actual people.




That does not excuse the behavior, though.  These folks are on the verge of losing their business and home. _THAT_ is hard.  The inability to remember that a fellow human is, in fact, a human?  Does not compare.  Banker dude can step up.


----------



## trappedslider

Umbran said:


> Yeah, but consider it this way - if they specifically didn't want us to se it as racism, they could have had the banker be another person of color, and address the sister accordingly.



so,every interaction in the show that has Sam dealing with someone not PoC will be seen through the lense of racism,including his interactions with bucky?


----------



## MoonSong

trappedslider said:


> so,every interaction in the show that has Sam dealing with someone not PoC will be seen through the lense of racism,including his interactions with bucky?



Not all of them... But these few we talked about had it written all over the place. And the loan scene was even lampshaded by Sam's sister.


----------



## Blue

MarkB said:


> Of course, the difficulty is telling apart those who died from people who simply went missing that day, or in the aftermath. The Snap left behind no remains with which to verify death, and establishing witnesses would be a rough task on even a fraction of the full scale of the deaths involved.
> 
> And I'm sure a lot of people actually _did_ just go missing in the immediate wake of the Snap.



In Spider-man: Far from Home, one of the teachers tells Peter that his wife pretended to have died during the Snap to leave him.  That they had a funeral and everything.


----------



## Blue

trappedslider said:


> If ever episode's after talk is gonna go into "is every action racism related or not" I'm not sure i wanna keep talking about the show here. I mean at that point we're going to have to consider every interaction that Bucky has with Sam. Since Bucky was born in 1917.



There's discussion of a single scene so far, it may be a little early to generalize out to the entire series.


----------



## Rabulias

Umbran said:


> I don't know of any big-mane cameos.  We'll see.



Maybe Fabio?


----------



## Umbran

trappedslider said:


> so,every interaction in the show that has Sam dealing with someone not PoC will be seen through the lense of racism,including his interactions with bucky?




If that's what it takes to get the portion of the audience that wants to twist, turn, squirm, deny, and apply spurious logic and hyperbole to deny some realities to stop avoiding them... I'd be okay with that.


----------



## Umbran

MoonSong said:


> Someone acting as blatantly racist as the banker would be quickly branded as a monster. People in here don't behave that way.




That's great for you.  However, it is actually pretty real, and calling it cartoonish is kind of dismissive of the people who live under the burden of it, you know?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I wonder if the show will deal with, or continue to deal with, depending on your view of the 1st episode, how there is racism in places where people refuse to see it, but also not racism in places, that people refuse to accept could be true. I wonder this because of the two latest shooting sprees that happened in the US. In one, the shooter denied it was for racial reasons, and the authorities have no proof yet that it was, but people in that community refuse to accept that is possible. And the other, people are probably pulling the terrorism card just because of the person's name/appearance. I am only applying these to the MCU and not discussing the real world issues around them. I think Marvel generally does a better job with the racism angle, than the terrorism angle. Though so far, at least, the terrorists in this show are not Middle Eastern.


----------



## MoonSong

Umbran said:


> That's great for you.  However, it is actually pretty real, and calling it cartoonish is kind of dismissive of the people who live under the burden of it, you know?



I'm sorry if it came that way. I was trying to say that ones context shapes the perception of this scene. It seems to come as realistic and subtle to its main intended audience (America). However it comes to me as extremely heavy handed and borderline cartoonish -because I'm not American and I have a different context-. Not because we don't have racism in here, but rather because it takes different forms and it is harder to notice if you are not paying attention (in a way it is more devilish because it is well hidden). 

All this shows is that I'm part of a secondary audience and I can't fully get it the way it is meant to be understood. This is probably the last I'll talk about this episode then. Sorry for the inconveniences.


----------



## trappedslider

Umbran said:


> If that's what it takes to get the portion of the audience that wants to twist, turn, squirm, deny, and apply spurious logic and hyperbole to deny some realities to stop avoiding them... I'd be okay with that.



I honestly don't have an issue with it, I'm just wondering if we as geeks/nerds who try to see if everything means something, when sometimes it's not meant to mean anything at all are going a bit far. There's a line in a John Varley novel in which the main character is half-Cuban starts blaming racism and his mom says "once you start down that road, it's all you ever see"

If you go back and just listen to the whole bank encounter, it comes across as the banker having stars in his eyes, while also attempting to do his job, and Sam coming across as hoping a bit that his celebrity status would help. But when you watch the same bit, you naturally wonder how much does skin color/sexism factor in.

I feel right in thinking ,that if the loan had been evaluated on character alone and not whatever new rules are in place for SBA loans, they would have gotten it with Sam being there. At least that's what the dialogue suggest to me.


----------



## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> I feel right in thinking ,that if the loan had been evaluated on character alone and not whatever new rules are in place for SBA loans, they would have gotten it with Sam being there. At least that's what the dialogue suggest to me.



Sam thought they had a good chance of getting the loan. His sister thought they didn't. If we give them both the benefit of assuming they're well informed, that would suggest that their case was borderline, with Sam thinking his higher profile would push them over the border, while his sister thought they'd fall under it, whether due to systematic bias or for other reasons.


----------



## trappedslider

MarkB said:


> Sam thought they had a good chance of getting the loan. His sister thought they didn't. If we give them both the benefit of assuming they're well informed, that would suggest that their case was borderline, with Sam thinking his higher profile would push them over the border, while his sister thought they'd fall under it, whether due to systematic bias or for other reasons.



Well Sam did say that they qualified for the SBA and the banker corrected him saying "under the old rules" which I'm thinking meant under the old rules they would have gotten the loan with Sam's push.


----------



## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> Well Sam did say that they qualified for the SBA and the banker corrected him saying "under the old rules" which I'm thinking meant under the old rules they would have gotten the loan with Sam's push.



There's no real way for us to tell, though. We don't even know whether "the old rules" means pre-Blip, or during the Blip, or last week before they changed them yet again.


----------



## Older Beholder

It’s not just the bank scene, earlier when Sam gets told that things got better for some people during the blip he responses that that usually means things always get worse for somebody else.

Before going for the loan he tells his sister he looked into the loan and it wouldn’t be a problem (I can’t remember the exact quotes) he also makes some comment about him knowing how to deal with white people.

When the bank manager tells them about the rule change he goes on to make some comment about everyone feeling the squeeze, and Sams sister says it’s funny who always seems get squeezed.

Sure, the bank guy doesn’t do anything you can point to, I think that’s part of the point. The idea of inequality growing during the blip are evident throughout the episode and inform the bank scene.

—-

I enjoyed the first episode even though I can’t help feeling a little underwhelmed, it’s the Marvel TV series I was least interested in, so there is that, also following WandaVision is a hard ask. I was expecting more of an action/comedy, but I don’t mind that they’re dealing with some bigger themes as well. It already feels more political than Marvel usually go.


----------



## Marc_C

Umbran said:


> If that's what it takes to get the portion of the audience that wants to twist, turn, squirm, deny, and apply spurious logic and hyperbole to deny some realities to stop avoiding them... I'd be okay with that.



That would have the opposite effect. It would just reinforce denier's bias that mainstream media is inclusive propaganda and disconnected from reality.


----------



## Marc_C

Sam/Falcon should do a Gofundme! Problem solved... but the writers didn't do that because it doesn't serve their narrative needs.
________________________

So back to saying what you like about the show:

Bucky was shown to be at the bottom of the barrel but working hard to make amends. Sam who started as a dogooder character, that nothing can stop, took two psychological blows starting his descent from super hero nirvana that deals in absolutes.

My intuition is that this will be a secondary arc story to the show. Bucky will continue climbing out and Sam will likely fall further. They will meet half point psychologically and help each other out.


----------



## trappedslider

Something that no one picked up on or has talked about here is that Bucky was sleeping on the floor, which calls back to Sam's and Rogers conversation about coming back from a tour.


----------



## Umbran

Marc_C said:


> That would have the opposite effect. It would just reinforce denier's bias that mainstream media is inclusive propaganda and disconnected from reality.




An expression of what I'd be comfortable with does not imply a belief that it would, in fact, work out that way.  But thanks.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Marc_C said:


> That would have the opposite effect. It would just reinforce denier's bias that mainstream media is inclusive propaganda and disconnected from reality.




Which is why I said earlier that whatever they do in this series to address racism, it will not change how any real racists think or act, but it may have the positive impact of getting people who have lesser degrees of biases and prejudices to look at how they talk and act and change for the better. A lot of the bad in the real world does not come from the outright racism, it comes from people living a lifetime with the more subtle stuff, who never see it or never realize it is so insidiously interwoven in our society. The only way the hate-filled racism will end is if all the racists stopped teaching the young how to hate and stopped converting marginalized adults.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Which is why I said earlier that whatever they do in this series to address racism, it will not change how any real racists think or act...




So, a language suggestion I've seen elsewhere that may help - "Racism" is anything that has a disproportionate impact upon a group of people of particular origins, ancestry, etc.  "Bigotry" is when that disproportional impact is willful and desired.

So, recent attacks on Asian-Americans?  Bigotry.

The banker in the first episode?  Racist, but probably not a bigot.  He may honestly think he is on their side, but seemed terribly clueless as to the impact of what he was doing.  If someone he cared about carefully enlightened him, he might well change his ways for the better.

So, what is done on the show probably won't change many bigots.  It might have impact on racism.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Okay. I finally got around to watching the first episode yesterday. Took a day to think it over a bit before coming to this thread. I kind of wish that I had taken more time, as I was not prepared for a lot of arguments in this thread that seem to be supporting the banker guy. I should have known. This is the internet, after all. 

I loved the first episode. My expectations weren't very high, as I never found Falcon or the Winter Soldier that compelling of characters in the MCU, especially when compared to more major ones (Spider-Man, Post-Ragnarok Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, Black Widow, etc). However, this show sincerely impressed me. I probably should have guessed that this would happen, as this is Marvel and they are pretty well known for making good movies and WandaVision was highly enjoyable, but I really like what I saw in the first episode and hope to see more like that. 

My only critique of the episode is that it kind of felt . . . "busy", for the lack of a better word. Kind of all over the place, I guess. I understand that it needs to introduce the shows basis, get us to care about the main characters, let us know what's been up recently in the world after the Blip, and so much more, but it really felt like there was a lot going on. There was the action scene in the beginning, which was cool, but I feel like it was tacked on or a bit disconnected from the rest of the episode. Then, there was all of the stuff about Falcon giving the Shield to the Smithsonian, his family stuff, introducing the villain of the series, and all of the stuff with Bucky's PTSD, guilt, therapy, and making amends with both those victimized by him and with himself. Then, of course, there was the introduction of the new Captain America at the end.

The episode was long enough to fit all of that stuff in there, but it felt a bit too stuffed full for me. Not that I'm really complaining, I liked pretty much everything in the episode, it was just a bit difficult to keep track of every plot line when there are 5+ going on at once (obligatory action scene, trying to get a loan for the boat, new Captain America, Bucky's therapy and redemption, the Flag Smasher, etc). 

Anyone agree with me?


----------



## Imaculata

Umbran said:


> So, what is done on the show probably won't change many bigots.  It might have impact on racism.




Our culture is shaped by representation. Having a big show like this address these issues in a well written way can make more people think about it. 

How this will affect our society is hard to predict, but I feel it is important.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> So, a language suggestion I've seen elsewhere that may help - "Racism" is anything that has a disproportionate impact upon a group of people of particular origins, ancestry, etc.  "Bigotry" is when that disproportional impact is willful and desired.
> 
> So, recent attacks on Asian-Americans?  Bigotry.
> 
> The banker in the first episode?  Racist, but probably not a bigot.  He may honestly think he is on their side, but seemed terribly clueless as to the impact of what he was doing.  If someone he cared about carefully enlightened him, he might well change his ways for the better.
> 
> So, what is done on the show probably won't change many bigots.  It might have impact on racism.




I went looking online first to make sure I got the degrees of racism in the right order of severity for when I posted. Mostly I saw bias, then prejudice, then bigotry, then racism. But some sites considered bigotry and racism the same, with bigotry being on a personal level and racism as bigotry on a large scale, as the systemic racism we have today. I won't even get into the subtle versus the overt or this will spill into the political crap we have all managed to avoid so far.

Speaking of political, I wonder if this series will tell us the name of the MCU version of the US President. We had that discussion over in the WandaVision thread, but who was President during the Snap, or after, has not been named by Marvel yet.


----------



## hopeless

I wonder why hasn't Pepper hired Sam to train a new generation of "Falcons"?
The suit looks very useful and it could be a handy pr boost of they're used to help rescue people say in high rises or apartment blocks on fire and given it takes time  get a ladder up there having someone ferrying people clear or establishing ropes to the top so they can easily evacuate those buildings?
After all his suit has clearly been modified by Tony Stark so it shouldn't stretch things that these missions are Stark related that also involves the military occasionally.
Would that work?


----------



## Blue

MarkB said:


> There's no real way for us to tell, though. We don't even know whether "the old rules" means pre-Blip, or during the Blip, or last week before they changed them yet again.



If you include the following line it's pretty clear it's post-Snap that the rules changed.

"Under the old terms, sure.  But these days, what, with everyone just showing up, well, things tightened up."

(Source: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier - S01E01 - New World Order [Transcript] - Scraps from the loft)


----------



## Umbran

hopeless said:


> I wonder why hasn't Pepper hired Sam to train a new generation of "Falcons"?




Do you want the Armor Wars?  Because, proliferation of this technology is how you get the Armor Wars.


----------



## Blue

hopeless said:


> I wonder why hasn't Pepper hired Sam to train a new generation of "Falcons"?
> The suit looks very useful and it could be a handy pr boost of they're used to help rescue people say in high rises or apartment blocks on fire and given it takes time  get a ladder up there having someone ferrying people clear or establishing ropes to the top so they can easily evacuate those buildings?
> After all his suit has clearly been modified by Tony Stark so it shouldn't stretch things that these missions are Stark related that also involves the military occasionally.
> Would that work?



There was a comment early on in the cafe that the Falcon suit was Stark-tech.  I wonder if that means explicitly The Falcon's suit, rebuild by Tony after it lost it's wings in Winter Soldier, or if the whole Falcon project was from back when Stark was selling to the military before the original Iron Man.  In Winter Soldier it did come up that there was only one more of them, and it was being stored in a vault on a military base, so it sounds like something out of production or unique.  But if it was built for the military by a normal supplier or built by the military I would expect that there would be more of them by now, when one is good enough to propel one to Avenger levels.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I went looking online first to make sure I got the degrees of racism in the right order of severity for when I posted.




Yeah.  The problem is that not everyone has read the same sites.  Language use varies.  I'm suggesting a simple convention for use locally, here in this thread, so we are all using the same definitions.  



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Speaking of political, I wonder if this series will tell us the name of the MCU version of the US President. We had that discussion over in the WandaVision thread, but who was President during the Snap, or after, has not been named by Marvel yet.




I don't think they will.  I don't think it serves the story to do so.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> Do you want the Armor Wars?  Because, proliferation of this technology is how you get the Armor Wars.




You do know they are doing an Armor Wars Disney+ show, right?


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> Do you want the Armor Wars?  Because, proliferation of this technology is how you get the Armor Wars.



Is the tech even that restricted? I'm sure it's not in very wide use, but Sam first used it while he was serving in the US military. The version he uses now is a lot more sophisticated and probably a custom Stark job, but the original was government issue.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Is the tech even that restricted?




It was a joke, that apparently didn't hit home.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> You do know they are doing an Armor Wars Disney+ show, right?




Yep.  That's... kinda the point...


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Umbran said:


> Do you want the Armor Wars?  Because, proliferation of this technology is how you get the Armor Wars.



Good point. Looks like things can lead that way, and those threads can be picked up by War Machine in his own show.


----------



## trappedslider

THE FALCON AND THE WINTER SOLDIER Bank Scene Broke My Brain
					

One scene in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier has us asking a lot of questions about money and superheroics in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. The post THE FALCON AND THE WINTER SOLDIER Bank Scene Broke My Brain appeared first on Nerdist.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## hopeless

Yes like Wandavision some of their story decisions don't work.
I'm surprised Ross hasn't tried to have Sam's Falcon suit seized yet.


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Yes like Wandavision some of their story decisions don't work.
> I'm surprised Ross hasn't tried to have Sam's Falcon suit seized yet.



Why would he? The Falcon suit is based upon a US military model, so they already have access to the tech, but the one he currently uses is a custom model of Avengers issue which he presumably owns outright. And Sam is working under contract with the US military. All they'd get by seizing it is a slightly souped-up version of something they already own, and the loss of the person best trained to make use of it.


----------



## hopeless

MarkB said:


> Why would he? The Falcon suit is based upon a US military model, so they already have access to the tech, but the one he currently uses is a custom model of Avengers issue which he presumably owns outright. And Sam is working under contract with the US military. All they'd get by seizing it is a slightly souped-up version of something they already own, and the loss of the person best trained to make use of it.



Because even if Sam wasn't the new Captain America he's still a useful addition even if its to find out what actually happened to Steve Rogers.
So does this mean the US Military are still using that suit because that's not the impression I've been getting.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

hopeless said:


> Because even if Sam wasn't the new Captain America he's still a useful addition even if its to find out what actually happened to Steve Rogers.
> So does this mean the US Military are still using that suit because that's not the impression I've been getting.



We saw in Spider-Man: Far From Home that the world seems to think that Steve Rogers is dead. If the world's top super heroes all told the government that Steve was dead, like Natasha, why would they not believe them? What would they gain from not believing them? They have his shield, after all. 

Also, the US government gains absolutely nothing from having Sam's suit in a supposed quest to find out what actually happened to Steve Rogers. Nothing whatsoever.


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Because even if Sam wasn't the new Captain America he's still a useful addition even if its to find out what actually happened to Steve Rogers.



I'm not sure where you're going with this. Sam's already working with the government / military on a contractor basis. Are you suggesting that they'd take his suit and then try to use it as leverage to make him work for them full time and/or tell them more than he wants to? That doesn't sound remotely viable.


hopeless said:


> So does this mean the US Military are still using that suit because that's not the impression I've been getting.



Whether they're still using it or not, it's their tech. They either have suits in storage, or the ability to make them if they want them. And if they have phased it out, and are therefore no longer training soldiers to pilot it, that's even less reason why they'd want to take Sam's suit - they'd have nobody else to fly it.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Whether they're still using it or not, it's their tech. They either have suits in storage, or the ability to make them if they want them. And if they have phased it out, and are therefore no longer training soldiers to pilot it, that's even less reason why they'd want to take Sam's suit - they'd have nobody else to fly it.




My recollection is that they had already mothballed the program before we ever saw the wings.  It presumably had already proven to be nonviable for military deployment.

I mean... consider the training accidents.  There ain't no ejection seat on those things.


----------



## Omand

Umbran said:


> My recollection is that they had already mothballed the program before we ever saw the wings.  It presumably had already proven to be nonviable for military deployment.
> 
> I mean... consider the training accidents.  There ain't no ejection seat on those things.



I agree, remember back to when we first met Sam, he told Steve that in his last mission his wingman died.  Then later when the reveal was that he had the suit, not a jet, the joke was all around Steve believing he was a pilot and doing a double-take.

The wingman was obviously another military member flying another powered wing suit.  Not clear if it was enemy action or pilot error or suit issues that caused the death (it may have been mentioned, but I forget the exact wording in the scene).

Cheers


----------



## MarkB

Omand said:


> I agree, remember back to when we first met Sam, he told Steve that in his last mission his wingman died.  Then later when the reveal was that he had the suit, not a jet, the joke was all around Steve believing he was a pilot and doing a double-take.
> 
> The wingman was obviously another military member flying another powered wing suit.  Not clear if it was enemy action or pilot error or suit issues that caused the death (it may have been mentioned, but I forget the exact wording in the scene).
> 
> Cheers



His buddy got taken out with an RPG round.

The movie doesn't specify whether the project was mothballed. It does state that the only suit available was in secure storage somewhere, but that might have just been the only one in the vicinity of Washington DC.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I really like the idea that Sam is the only one who's ever been able to master using the suit, and that it's just too dangerous for the military to get anyone else to wear.


----------



## Morrus

How does it compare to the Iron Man suit (and War Machine copies)?


----------



## trappedslider

MarkB said:


> His buddy got taken out with an RPG round.
> 
> The movie doesn't specify whether the project was mothballed. It does state that the only suit available was in secure storage somewhere, but that might have just been the only one in the vicinity of Washington DC.



It was at Fort Meade behind a lot of security EXO-7 Falcon

So his current suit is owned by the USAF and in turn the government,just like the other suits. So for a while Sam was in possession of stolen property


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> How does it compare to the Iron Man suit (and War Machine copies)?




First and foremost... it isn't full-body armor.   It isn't laden with repulsors and other weapons.  

It is less a suit, and more a jetpack with wings.


----------



## Zardnaar

Umbran said:


> That's great for you.  However, it is actually pretty real, and calling it cartoonish is kind of dismissive of the people who live under the burden of it, you know?




  Not American and a lot of it does come across as cartoonish. Our stuff dealing with topics like that tends to be a lot more hard hitting. 

 Captain America doesn't appeal that much as not American so red white and blue does nothing for me. Americans had GI Joe and superhero comics, we had ones on WW2. Literally named War, Battle and Commando.

 I thought the scene was great and executed well. Multiple ways to interpret it. If you want to see more and how it plays out it did it's job.


----------



## trappedslider

so, Sharon got labeled an enemy of the state for giving Cap and Sam back their gear in CW, Zemo's in prison (but for how long?)

Also, seems that the government kept at the super solider serum and had at least one active during the Korean War.

Also, I bet Dr. Reynor went got herself a drink or two afterwards lol


----------



## tomBitonti

The next episode is up!  Some interesting world-building in this episode.  The threads of the story are multiplying ...

A little uneven ... I find the transitions from serious to comedic banter to be a little jarring.

Plenty of fodder for continuing the discussions re: discrimination in America.  This episode plunges us deep into the issue.

I am _not_ trusting the new Captain America.  I have more thoughts, but will give folks a chance to see the episode first.

Thanks!
TomB


----------



## trappedslider

tomBitonti said:


> I am _not_ trusting the new Captain America.  I have more thoughts, but will give folks a chance to see the episode first.
> 
> Thanks!
> TomB



I don't like him either...he also needs to get a little closer to his razor next time lol


----------



## John R Davis

Enjoyed. the series will rise or fall dependent on the relationship between F & WS. Nice convos in this episode and i loved the wizard debate


----------



## MarkB

Now that we've been introduced to some of the Flag Smashers I hope we get at least a couple of small flashbacks with them. I really like the concept of a disenfranchised youth who feel marginalised by the returned Unsnapped populations, but currently the weakness of wanting to take things back to "the way they were in the Blip" is that we really have no idea what that looked like aside from a very few short scenes during Endgame that mostly were focused on other matters.


----------



## MoonSong

tomBitonti said:


> I am _not_ trusting the new Captain America.  I have more thoughts, but will give folks a chance to see the episode first.



I don't know, he seemed genuinely wanting to do good.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

trappedslider said:


> Also, seems that the government kept at the super solider serum and had at least one active during the Korean War.



Yep, his case file and a partial pic of his face are in the closing credit sequence. He is also from the comic books, starting back around 2003.

Also, Screenrant seems to always do a good job of rounding up the easter eggs and other references in the episodes. Lot of good stuff in this one for all of us without deep Marvel lore:









						Falcon & The Winter Soldier: Every MCU Easter Egg In Episode 2
					

Did you catch them all?




					screenrant.com


----------



## tomBitonti

MoonSong said:


> I don't know, he seemed genuinely wanting to do good.



I had that response too.  But I am thrown off by the "wanting to do the job" comment.  There is a mercenary aspect to his behavior that bothers me.  Also, "wanting to do the job" ... for whom?  I'm feeling that "for whom" could be filled by a lot of different groups.
Thanks!
TomB


----------



## embee

Umbran said:


> I mean... consider the training accidents.  There ain't no ejection seat on those things.



I'm sure that there's a quick release strap.

Of course, then you fall to your death, making it about as useful as the ejector seats in COBRA helicopters.


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> I mean... consider the training accidents.  There ain't no ejection seat on those things.






embee said:


> I'm sure that there's a quick release strap.
> 
> Of course, then you fall to your death, making it about as useful as the ejector seats in COBRA helicopters.



In Winter Soldier, after Bucky pulls off one of Sam's wings then throws him off the helicarrier, it turns out that he does have a parachute available as a backup. Which is more than was built into Rhodey's War Machine suit in Civil war.


----------



## Blue

trappedslider said:


> It was at Fort Meade behind a lot of security EXO-7 Falcon
> 
> So his current suit is owned by the USAF and in turn the government,just like the other suits. So for a while Sam was in possession of stolen property



His current suit was described as Stark-tech during the cafe scene.  And we know he lost the wings in Winter Soldier so it would have to be rebuilt or recreated.  It also had technology like Redwing that it didn't originally have.  So it's a pretty safe bet that his current suit is not the original suit, and therefore not owned by the USAF.

Yes, I know the wiki only has a single page.  But that page isn't doesn't include the recent information that what he has now is Stark-tech.  I guess it could be pre-Iron Man, when Stark Industries was selling munitions and weapons of war.


----------



## MarkB

Blue said:


> His current suit was described as Stark-tech during the cafe scene.  And we know he lost the wings in Winter Soldier so it would have to be rebuilt or recreated.  It also had technology like Redwing that it didn't originally have.  So it's a pretty safe bet that his current suit is not the original suit, and therefore not owned by the USAF.
> 
> Yes, I know the wiki only has a single page.  But that page isn't doesn't include the recent information that what he has now is Stark-tech.  I guess it could be pre-Iron Man, when Stark Industries was selling munitions and weapons of war.



However, the current episode has Redwing having been used to track him, accessed legitimately rather than hacked, because it's military property.

Whether that's because it was built by the military, or because the integration of the Avengers into multinational military control via the Sokovia accords made it technically their property, they apparently have full access to Sam's tech.

Not that they particularly needed it in order to track him, given that he flew out of a military base in a military transport plane to get where he was going.


----------



## trappedslider

Blue said:


> His current suit was described as Stark-tech during the cafe scene.  And we know he lost the wings in Winter Soldier so it would have to be rebuilt or recreated.  It also had technology like Redwing that it didn't originally have.  So it's a pretty safe bet that his current suit is not the original suit, and therefore not owned by the USAF.



"You hacked my tech?"
"It's not exactly hacking, it's government property."


----------



## wicked cool

I was clearly wrong on my assessment of racism in the banker scene. After this weeks episode it’s clearly intentional that the writers want us to see racism


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Another great episode. It was much more fast-paced than the previous episode. The Flag Smashers are interesting. I wonder how they got the Super-Soldier Serum, what those vaccines are (if they are vaccines), and why they're being painted as much more human than many other Marvel villains. Maybe these villains will be like Killmonger in the sense that they have a point, while still having evil intentions. 

If those vaccines are actually vaccines . . . that leads to the conclusion that they, or whoever is after them, is seeking to release some deadly disease. If they do this, I wonder what message they would be trying to send, as we are currently experiencing a global pandemic. 

If the vaccine is the Super-Soldier Serum, who are they going to give it to, and why? 

Just some thoughts. Overall great episode. I'm totally on board for the term "Big Three" for Aliens, Androids, and Wizards.


----------



## MarkB

AcererakTriple6 said:


> If those vaccines are actually vaccines . . . that leads to the conclusion that they, or whoever is after them, is seeking to release some deadly disease. If they do this, I wonder what message they would be trying to send, as we are currently experiencing a global pandemic.



If they truly want to return the world to the state it was in during the Blip, then unleashing something that kills a large percentage of the population would be a rather direct way to do that.

So far, they don't necessarily seem quite that ruthless, though.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Another great episode. It was much more fast-paced than the previous episode. The Flag Smashers are interesting. I wonder how they got the Super-Soldier Serum, what those vaccines are (if they are vaccines), and why they're being painted as much more human than many other Marvel villains. Maybe these villains will be like Killmonger in the sense that they have a point, while still having evil intentions.
> 
> If those vaccines are actually vaccines . . . that leads to the conclusion that they, or whoever is after them, is seeking to release some deadly disease. If they do this, I wonder what message they would be trying to send, as we are currently experiencing a global pandemic.
> 
> If the vaccine is the Super-Soldier Serum, who are they going to give it to, and why?
> 
> Just some thoughts. Overall great episode. I'm totally on board for the term "Big Three" for Aliens, Androids, and Wizards.




Well, they specifically named the Power Broker, who is probably the main villain, or co-villain? In the comics, his company was making super soldiers, including injecting it into Walker, his sidekick Lemar, and Sam's friend Torres. So we will see how many of them actually get it in the show. And it was the Power Broker that the Flag Smashers have been stealing from, probably including the super serum that was used on them? Or they were created by him and then escaped.


----------



## Stalker0

MoonSong said:


> I don't know, he seemed genuinely wanting to do good.



Unfortunately Marvel has a tendency to go too black and white for my taste. They started him out legitimate, genuine good guy, wants to do the right thing, has an honest and true bada** military record to back it up. Honestly they made him look in the right initially, with Bucky and Falcon coming off as childish.

But even by the end of the episode we are seeing a bit more "dickish" behavior, and considering how in Wandavision the director of SWORD went from a decent looking human being in the first episode, to literally shooting at children by the end....I don't have a lot of hope in an actual multifaceted character.


----------



## Older Beholder

Stalker0 said:


> Unfortunately Marvel has a tendency to go too black and white for my taste.




Given on these forums in the WandaVision thread people have argued:
if Wanda was a hero or villain
if Agatha was a hero or villain
if the SWORD guy did anything wrong

I‘s say they do an OK job in the grey areas.

Also, Bucky has probably killed more people than most villains on the show and the next TV show coming out stars Loki


----------



## Stalker0

ModestModernist said:


> Given on these forums in the WandaVision thread people have argued:
> if Wanda was a hero or villain
> if Agatha was a hero or villain
> if the SWORD guy did anything wrong
> 
> I‘s say they do an OK job in the grey areas.
> 
> Also, Bucky has probably killed more people than most villains on the show and the next TV show coming out stars Loki



Eh that's a fair point. Well here's hoping, as I would love to see some more multifaceted interesting characters!


----------



## hawkeyefan

I’m really glad that Walker isn’t some snarling, overzealous thug or anything so one note. It actually makes it trickier if he’s basically a good guy.

I imagine we’ll see him fail to fill Steve’s shoes in some manner, though...validating Sam as Steve’s true successor. But we’ll see.

All in all a good episode. Sam and Bucky...or Mackie and Stan, I suppose...have good chemistry and play off each other well. Solid character work from them both.

Curious to see where things are going with the Flagsmashers and the Power Broker. Some ideas from the comics seem likely, but I’m sure some things’ll play out different.

Very surprised to see Isaiah. And I suppose that was Eli living with him! Six of the eight Young Avengers are now officially in the MCU (or will be once Hawkeye arrives).

One thing that kind of bugged me....does Bucky have enhanced abilities beyond the arm? First he took that fall from the plane and then he caught up to a truck as it was speeding away. I don’t recall if there were ever any hints that he’d been otherwise enhanced, but that was the impression I got here.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

hawkeyefan said:


> One thing that kind of bugged me....does Bucky have enhanced abilities beyond the arm? First he took that fall from the plane and then he caught up to a truck as it was speeding away. I don’t recall if there were ever any hints that he’d been otherwise enhanced, but that was the impression I got here.



Pretty sure he got the HYDRA version of the super soldier serum when he was captured by them during WWII.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> Unfortunately Marvel has a tendency to go too black and white for my taste. They started him out legitimate, genuine good guy, wants to do the right thing, has an honest and true bada** military record to back it up. Honestly they made him look in the right initially, with Bucky and Falcon coming off as childish.
> 
> But even by the end of the episode we are seeing a bit more "dickish" behavior, and considering how in Wandavision the director of SWORD went from a decent looking human being in the first episode, to literally shooting at children by the end....I don't have a lot of hope in an actual multifaceted character.



You can be a dick no matter which side you are on!

Walker seems sincere to me (which doesn't preclude him being dickish sometimes). Bucky's issue is with the people giving him orders - the US government. And this is the point he is trying to make to Sam by taking him to see Isaiah. I think the direction the show is taking is that Captain America needs to be separate from the state. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? That white-haired senator in the first episode seemed very fishy to me.

Which brings me to the Flag Smashers. Maybe they have a point? Whatever, and obvious flag to be smashed is the one on Captain America's suit. I wouldn't be surprised if Walker is killed. Or, if he survives, he, or his bosses, might deicide he needs Super Soldier serum to do his job. And I think this is another issue the show ill address: do you need to be superhuman to be Captain America? Sam, like Walker, only has his skills (given that the same goes for Batman, I would say the answer is no).

As for the main villain, I would love to see Toby Jones' Zola back in some form. But that might be just wishful thinking on my part.


----------



## Nikosandros

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Pretty sure he got the HYDRA version of the super soldier serum when he was captured by them during WWII.



Yes, he did get the serum from HYDRA. In the last episode, he tells Isaiah that "there's more of you and me out there".


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Nikosandros said:


> Yes, he did get the serum from HYDRA. In the last episode, he tells Isaiah that "there's more of you and me out there".



In the _Captain America: The First Avenger_ he is found strapped to Zola's laboratory table.

This actually ties into my Zola hypothesis. Zola experimented on Bucky in 1944(?) and by the 1950s he is working for the US government, presumably with access to Dr Erskine's research. So it seems plausible that it was Zola who experimented on Isaiah.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Blue said:


> His current suit was described as Stark-tech during the cafe scene.  And we know he lost the wings in Winter Soldier so it would have to be rebuilt or recreated.  It also had technology like Redwing that it didn't originally have.  So it's a pretty safe bet that his current suit is not the original suit, and therefore not owned by the USAF.
> 
> Yes, I know the wiki only has a single page.  But that page isn't doesn't include the recent information that what he has now is Stark-tech.  I guess it could be pre-Iron Man, when Stark Industries was selling munitions and weapons of war.



The original falcon suit was stolen from the US government (original design H. Stark?). So, even though it was completely upgraded by Stark (the Ship of Theseus sails again!) the original design is US government intellectual property. One assumes Stark designed the suit so that Sam could maintain it. It is going to need repairs after pretty much every mission. And it's going to need replacement parts. Which raises a major question: who controls the Stark company now? The obvious answer is Pepper, but she didn't seem to be running it during the blip. It could be that the government has a lot more control over it with Tony gone.


----------



## Marc_C

wicked cool said:


> I was clearly wrong on my assessment of racism in the banker scene. After this weeks episode it’s clearly intentional that the writers want us to see racism



I wasn't convinced either but now it's very clear.


----------



## Marc_C

Info on Isaiah Bradley. I wasn't aware of the Tuskegee Study. Revolting. 









						Isaiah Bradley Explained - The MCU’s Forgotten Captain America
					

The history of the MCU has just been rewritten.




					screenrant.com


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Marc_C said:


> Info on Isaiah Bradley. I wasn't aware of the Tuskegee Study. Revolting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isaiah Bradley Explained - The MCU’s Forgotten Captain America
> 
> 
> The history of the MCU has just been rewritten.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenrant.com



Yeah, the comic Truth that Isaiah Bradley first was in was based loosely on reality, unfortunately.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

FitzTheRuke said:


> Yeah, the comic Truth that Isaiah Bradley first was in was based loosely on reality, unfortunately.




Yep, and this is not political at all, because horrible things have happened no matter who has been in charge of the government here.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yep, and this is not political at all, because horrible things have happened no matter who has been in charge of the government here.



Politics is more than "which party do you support". "Should we have a government at all" is also political.

And if you look into it, you will find most governments have done some pretty horrible things.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yep, and this is not political at all, because horrible things have happened no matter who has been in charge of the government here.



That is true, in particular when you start to look back at history, every government has done terrible things. Hopefully we can learn from things and do better in the future. (Maybe that last line can be seen as political, but I like to think that it's nonpartisan).


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

FitzTheRuke said:


> That is true, in particular when you start to look back at history, every government has done terrible things. Hopefully we can learn from things and do better in the future. (Maybe that last line can be seen as political, but I like to think that it's nonpartisan).




No, I think we are okay, as long as we stay neutral, like with the racial stuff, since both are tied to the show and can't be avoided if we are properly discussing the story. I mean, you can't get much more political than Captain America.


----------



## Marc_C

Paul Farquhar said:


> Politics is more than "which party do you support". "Should we have a government at all" is also political.
> 
> And if you look into it, you will find most governments have done some pretty horrible things.



As a Canadian I confirm. McGill University in Montreal Canada ran unethical mind control studies in the 50-60:









						Declassified: Mind Control at McGill | The McGill Tribune
					

An investigation into the large-scale attempts by the CIA to research behavioural modification and the effects of certain drugs and psychological treatments on the human mind.




					www.mcgilltribune.com


----------



## DammitVictor

MarkB said:


> In Winter Soldier, after Bucky pulls off one of Sam's wings then throws him off the helicarrier, it turns out that he does have a parachute available as a backup. Which is more than was built into Rhodey's War Machine suit in Civil war.




Rhodey could have had a parachute, that he could have activated, if he hadn't been knocked unconscious.


----------



## Umbran

MoonSong said:


> I don't know, he seemed genuinely wanting to do good.




The road to heck is paved with good intentions.


----------



## billd91

MoonSong said:


> I don't know, he seemed genuinely wanting to do good.



That's the thing - he generally does. But, in the comics at least, he's designed to be the anti-Cap and whatever good he does will be motivated more by nationalism than idealistic patriotism.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> Rhodey could have had a parachute, that he could have activated, if he hadn't been knocked unconscious.



Yeah the g-forces knocked him out during the fall. There was also the matter of VIsion's shot KO'ing the power in Rhodey's suit so any mechanism to trigger a parachute would have had to have been activated manually. And when there's no power going to the suit is it possible to even move to trigger a mechanism?

I know in ENDGAME just after Thanos's attack on the Avenger's Compound happens and the War Machine armor is compromised Rhodey issues a voice command ("Canopy! Canopy! Canopy!) to pop open the suit. But the assumption there is that the suit STILL had power to activate the command...


----------



## MarkB

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> Rhodey could have had a parachute, that he could have activated, if he hadn't been knocked unconscious.



He wasn't knocked unconscious. He's still talking as he drops. "I'm flying dead stick here."


----------



## Imaculata

I just watched episode 2, and it is starting to draw me in a bit more. I like the humor and character interactions better than what snippets I saw of it in the trailer. The story so far is intriguing, and the scene with the cops was well done. The topic of racism is more overt now, and it looks like we have a main villain, even if we haven't seen him yet.

Some of the effects shots in the big action scene looked a bit hokey, but it didn't take me out of it. Overall the show is fun, but not yet great. I wonder if by episode 3 it will really start to pick up the pace.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Marc_C said:


> As a Canadian I confirm. McGill University in Montreal Canada ran unethical mind control studies in the 50-60:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Declassified: Mind Control at McGill | The McGill Tribune
> 
> 
> An investigation into the large-scale attempts by the CIA to research behavioural modification and the effects of certain drugs and psychological treatments on the human mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mcgilltribune.com



That's small beer compared to some, thinking of no UK in particular...


----------



## Umbran

MoonSong said:


> I don't know, he seemed genuinely wanting to do good.




Sure, but... whose version of "good"?  We have not yet seen John Walker's _ethos_, if you will.


----------



## Marc_C

Paul Farquhar said:


> That's small beer compared to some, thinking of no UK in particular...



You want to rephrase that. The suffering of 80 mentally ill patient who were electroshocked until they were mindless is cruel and shouldn't be belittled.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> That's small beer compared to some, thinking of no UK in particular...




*Mod Note:*

Maybe getting into abuse-sizing is not terribly constructive, or respectful of the victims.  So, let's not do that again, okay, folks?


----------



## MoonSong

Umbran said:


> Sure, but... whose version of "good"?  We have not yet seen John Walker's _ethos_, if you will.



I meant Good the noun, not good the adjective.(Every culture, subculture and group will have different ideas of which actions are good -the adjective-, these are determined by ethos. Yet, everybody shares a basic idea of "Good" -the noun, the higher concept-. We disagree on the application of good -the adjective-, but this idea of Good -the noun- is essentially universal. No culture outright dismisses Good, they just disagree on which things are good and which aren't)


----------



## Older Beholder

A guy in my office watches this stuff with his kid, and he always calls it ‘Falcon and the Snowman’


----------



## Tonguez

Paul Farquhar said:


> You can be a dick no matter which side you are on!
> 
> Walker seems sincere to me (which doesn't preclude him being dickish sometimes). Bucky's issue is with the people giving him orders - the US government. And this is the point he is trying to make to Sam by taking him to see Isaiah. I think the direction the show is taking is that Captain America needs to be separate from the state. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? That white-haired senator in the first episode seemed very fishy to me.
> 
> Which brings me to the Flag Smashers. Maybe they have a point? Whatever, and obvious flag to be smashed is the one on Captain America's suit. I wouldn't be surprised if Walker is killed. Or, if he survives, he, or his bosses, might deicide he needs Super Soldier serum to do his job. And I think this is another issue the show ill address: do you need to be superhuman to be Captain America? Sam, like Walker, only has his skills (given that the same goes for Batman, I would say the answer is no).




I finally watched the first two episodes and although the first episode was okay it was the second episode that pulled me in, especially with the Isaiah Bradley scene (I like the actor, and the implications of racism, supersoldiers and governmental power).

In particular though I was intrigued with the implications of the Global Repatriation Council and their activities, which the Flag Smashers seem to be opposed to criticising the GRC for caring more about the returnees than thos who survived during the Blip.

Are they setting up the GRC as being ‘Big Government’ with US Agent and Battlestar as the oppressive hand of the system? Are the Flag Smashers actually misguided good guys who want to give vaccines to the poor, destroy symbols of toxic nationalism and create a global utopia? 

Will Sam need to decide if Captain America is a Symbol of the US Military   or is it about the independent values of the people? Is he a hero for upholding the Nation or for resisting its corruption?

Given the current state of the real world I’d be delighted if Marvel decides to explore some of those issues

.


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> You can be a dick no matter which side you are on!
> 
> Walker seems sincere to me (which doesn't preclude him being dickish sometimes). Bucky's issue is with the people giving him orders - the US government. And this is the point he is trying to make to Sam by taking him to see Isaiah. I think the direction the show is taking is that Captain America needs to be separate from the state. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? That white-haired senator in the first episode seemed very fishy to me.
> 
> Which brings me to the Flag Smashers. Maybe they have a point? Whatever, and obvious flag to be smashed is the one on Captain America's suit. I wouldn't be surprised if Walker is killed. Or, if he survives, he, or his bosses, might deicide he needs Super Soldier serum to do his job. And I think this is another issue the show ill address: do you need to be superhuman to be Captain America? Sam, like Walker, only has his skills (given that the same goes for Batman, I would say the answer is no).
> 
> As for the main villain, I would love to see Toby Jones' Zola back in some form. But that might be just wishful thinking on my part.



They already kinda implied that he was a natural super soldier.  They said he was stronger, faster and smarter than everyone else and had won 3 medals of honor.


----------



## Imaculata

Tonguez said:


> Given the current state of the real world I’d be delighted if Marvel decides to explore some of those issues.




I don't know when writing on this show began, but the topics of toxic nationalism and racism have never been more topical than right now.

I'm interested to see where they take this show and I hope they take some risks.


----------



## Older Beholder

As others have said, the second episode really got things going. I guess they need to if it’s only going to be 6 episodes. 

I was thinking with 5 series to fill a year they’d each be 10 eps, but maybe ‘What if’ will have more episodes to make it up?


----------



## Umbran

MoonSong said:


> Yet, everybody shares a basic idea of "Good" -the noun, the higher concept-.




Have you not seen tons of alignment arguments on these boards?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Tonguez said:


> Are they setting up the GRC as being ‘Big Government’ with US Agent and Battlestar as the oppressive hand of the system? Are the Flag Smashers actually misguided good guys who want to give vaccines to the poor, destroy symbols of toxic nationalism and create a global utopia?



The Power Broker is in the mix too, but whether he is independent, like in the comics, or is working more directly with the government, we do not know yet. Plus, the part that confuses me is that Flag Smashers want to go back to how it was in the 5 years half the people were gone, but it seems like they are taking the medications to refugee camps? Wouldn't the camps be where returnees live because their old homes and jobs and lives are gone?


----------



## MoonSong

Umbran said:


> Have you not seen tons of alignment arguments on these boards?



There'll never be too many of them. No, scratch that, there'll never be enough of 'em. n_n


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The Power Broker is in the mix too, but whether he is independent, like in the comics, or is working more directly with the government, we do not know yet. Plus, the part that confuses me is that Fle Smashers want to go back to how it was in the 5 years half the people were gone, but it seems like they are taking the medications to refugee camps? Wouldn't the camps be where returnees live because their old homes and jobs and lives are gone?




Yeah, how they work the Power Broker in is going to be interesting.

As to the refugee camps I suppose that there may have been a lot of Snap Orphans in cases where parents got dusted leaving children behind, which would be consistent with Karli being a young woman (actress is 22). 
Others may have been in the camps due to government collapse? But yeah we do need more information about just what did happen during those 5 years


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Fle Smashers want to go back to how it was in the 5 years half the people were gone, but it seems like they are taking the medications to refugee camps?



I don't think their philosophy is  "we wish all the people who came back where dead".

I think is more a case that governments collapsed during the blip, but when people came back the returners picked things up right where they left off five years ago.


----------



## Staffan

wicked cool said:


> Back to Wanda vision-Monica will have the same super powers as captain marvel? Which one does rogue steal her powers from in the comics? are any of the other agents also potentail super heroes?



In the comics, the original Captain Marvel was a Kree with extraordinary abilities (with the real name Mar-Vell). He was at some point on Earth where he was co-operating with the US authorities, where he and Carol Danvers got into some accident that merged his genetics with hers, giving her the traditional "flying brick" powerset (strength, stamina, damage resistance, flight, and also a "seventh sense" giving her some ability to sense danger). At the time, she went into the hero business, originally as Ms Marvel.

The Avengers writers eventually did some, um, questionable things with the character in the early 80s, and in an effort to salvage the character in the aftermath Chris Claremont had her get into a fight with Rogue (at that point a super-villain working for her foster-mothers Mystique and Destiny), which ended with Rogue permanently draining Danvers' powers and memories, leaving Danvers for dead. She survived, however, and with the help of Professor X she managed to regain most of her memories but without their emotional context. Danvers became a supporting character in the X-Men for a while, and while in space she was experimented on by the Brood, which lead to her gaining a new and improved powerset as Binary. In addition to a souped-up version of the flying brick powerset, she now also had the ability to control and project both electromagnetic energy and gravity, as well as survive in space and fly in hyperspace (this is essentially the version we see in the movie, at least power-wise).

Later on, Mar-Vell died from cancer. Shortly thereafter, Monica Rambeau got the ability to project and to transform into various forms of electromagnetic energy (and some limited ability to control it), and was dubbed Captain Marvel by the press. She joined the Avengers (as the first African-American superheroine in the group) and had various adventures with them. She eventually lost her powers, at which time the name Captain Marvel was picked up by Genis-Vell, Mar-Vell's son (by way of genetic engineering). When Rambeau eventually regains her powers, she takes on the name Photon instead. She eventually changed to Pulsar, and now goes by Spectrum.

Meanwhile, Danvers breaks ties with the X-Men when they decide to take in Rogue who is having severe issues with mental stability due to having Danvers' memories in her head (Danvers did not take those news well), and goes into space to have wacky fun adventures there. She eventually loses most of her Binary powerup, leaving her with her original powerset. She returns to Earth and rejoins the Avengers as Warbird. This is met with mixed success. Eventually, the Avengers disband, due in part to unconscious reality manipulation by the Scarlet Witch.

Said reality manipulation eventually results in the House of M reality, where Danvers is Captain Marvel, the most well-regarded human super-heroine in a mutant-dominated world. When that reality collapses, Danvers retains her memories, and decides to fix her life. She starts being more assertive and is given an increasingly high-profile role in the comics, culminating in her claiming the mantle of Captain Marvel about ten years ago (in real time). There have been a few other Captains Marvel in between Genis-Vell and Danvers, but no-one who made much of a splash. These days, Danvers for the most part has a souped-up version of her original powerset, but with latent Binary powers that activate when she is exposed to large amounts of energy.

*TL;DR: *Captain Marvel is a title that has been carried by many different characters: Mar-Vell, Monica Rambeau, Genis-Vell, Phyla-Vell (now Quasar), the super-skrull Khn'nr, Noh-Varr (now going by Marvel Boy), and finally (hopefully) Carol Danvers.
Monica Rambeau has had multiple code-names: Captain Marvel, Photon, Pulsar, and Spectrum.
Carol Danvers has also had multiple code-names: Ms Marvel, Binary, Warbird, and now Captain Marvel.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> I don't think there philosophy is  "we wish all the people who came back where dead".
> 
> I think is more a case that governments collapsed during the blip, but when people came back the returners picked things up right where they lest off five years ago.



It's probably especially acute for kids just reaching adulthood. They'd gone through their adolescence with this combination of "we're all in it together" shared feelings, the bonding of having all gone through this great tragedy, and they're just about to set out into a wide open job market and a super-cheap housing market.

And then bam, everybody's back from the dead, and there are suddenly a couple of billion more qualified people ready to pick up the jobs they were doing before the Blip, and a major housing crisis as well. It's basically like a bunch of strangers turned up and stole these kids' futures from them.


----------



## Blue

Stalker0 said:


> Unfortunately Marvel has a tendency to go too black and white for my taste. They started him out legitimate, genuine good guy, wants to do the right thing, has an honest and true bada** military record to back it up. Honestly they made him look in the right initially, with Bucky and Falcon coming off as childish.
> 
> But even by the end of the episode we are seeing a bit more "dickish" behavior, and considering how in Wandavision the director of SWORD went from a decent looking human being in the first episode, to literally shooting at children by the end....I don't have a lot of hope in an actual multifaceted character.



Umm, he repeatedly was trying to do the right thing and was rebuffed again and again.  Even after them walking away from him in the jeep he immediately intervened when he found out Bucky was arrested, and overturned the therapy sessions.   After that, he freely gives intel to Sam & Bucky, and only after getting rebuffed yet again says the dickish line "Don't get in my way".  Really, I think he showed them a heck of a lot of patience and extended goodwill several times, finally getting fed up.

Now, I still think he's going to be less than stellar, but he had one well-deserved line of dickish behavior after multiple attempts to extend the olive branch in both words and deeds.  That's just being human.


----------



## Umbran

Blue said:


> Umm, he repeatedly was trying to do the right thing and was rebuffed again and again.  Even after them walking away from him in the jeep he immediately intervened when he found out Bucky was arrested, and overturned the therapy sessions.   After that, he freely gives intel to Sam & Bucky, and only after getting rebuffed yet again says the dickish line "Don't get in my way".  Really, I think he showed them a heck of a lot of patience and extended goodwill several times, finally getting fed up.




The element of this that you are leaving out is that he's trying to insert himself into their world as an equal, wearing a mantle of their best friend and idol, without having proven himself first.  He just shows up and gets in the middle of things.  

Yes, Bucky and Sam were overmatched at the time, but that's secondary to men who are struggling to deal with new realities themselves.

So... the end result is kind of predictable.


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> The element of this that you are leaving out is that he's trying to insert himself into their world as an equal, wearing a mantle of their best friend and idol, without having proven himself first.  He just shows up and gets in the middle of things.
> 
> Yes, Bucky and Sam were overmatched at the time, but that's secondary to men who are struggling to deal with new realities themselves.
> 
> So... the end result is kind of predictable.




yeah, except as a soldier he has proven himself (he’s been decorated 3 times), so sure he isnt a friend, but he has been employed for The Job and he does have a right to consider himself a professional peer.
I can see how he is the guy who knows that the one he’s replacing wore some big shoes, but he’s keen to do the Job well and wants his new colleagues to know that he is happy to be part of the Team and hopes they will accept him.

Sam and Bucky made it clear they dont accept John Walker as a peer - even as a fellow soldier, which imho is a bit dickish of Sam (its a more understandable reaction from Bucky).


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

I would love for them to keep John Walker as a "good guy", but also as a rival. That would be a cool plotline, IMO. The idea reminds me of Skyrim's Civil War plotline, where neither side is "evil", and both of them have good points. Sam and Bucky have a point that Steve wouldn't want John taking his place, but John also can help and Sam and Bucky may need his help to beat . . . whoever is the villain in this series.


----------



## Imaculata

Staffan said:


> *TL;DR: *Captain Marvel is a title that has been carried by many different characters: Mar-Vell, Monica Rambeau, Genis-Vell, Phyla-Vell (now Quasar), the super-skrull Khn'nr, Noh-Varr (now going by Marvel Boy), and finally (hopefully) Carol Danvers.




So this leaves the writers with the option of killing off Carol Denvers and having someone likable step in to take over the role of Captain Marvel. Someone like Monica Rambeau for example.


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> yeah, except as a soldier he has proven himself (he’s been decorated 3 times), so sure he isnt a friend, but he has been employed for The Job and he does have a right to consider himself a professional peer.




Getting along with other human beings isn't about "rights".  It is about empathy.



Tonguez said:


> I can see how he is the guy who knows that the one he’s replacing wore some big shoes, but he’s keen to do the Job well and wants his new colleagues to know that he is happy to be part of the Team and hopes they will accept him.




If he really wanted that, he would have consutled with them, rather than tracking them without their knowledge and just showing up out of a helicopter unasked.  That's not how to show you want to be part of a team.



Tonguez said:


> Sam and Bucky made it clear they dont accept John Walker as a peer - even as a fellow soldier




Well, Sam and Bucky are no longer soldiers.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> Well, Sam and Bucky are no longer soldiers.



Sam has been working with the military, so he probably has some kind of military status.

Anyway, the people I know who have been in the armed forces never _stop_ being soldiers.


----------



## Umbran

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I would love for them to keep John Walker as a "good guy", but also as a rival.




In the comics, John Walker isn't exactly a villain.  But, he's a bit of a nationalist zealot, has some unfortunate sociopolitical views, feels entitled to command, and has a lack of emotional control that leads him to be rather brutal.  I don't think we've seen this in the TV show yet, but I expect the, "You can't punch your way out of everything," line in the locker room is a hint at it.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> Sam has been working with the military, so he probably has some kind of military status.




He's a contractor.



Paul Farquhar said:


> Anyway, the people I know who have been in the armed forces never _stop_ being soldiers.




Bucky was an outright unwilling government tool for decades, and he and Sam spent a couple of years on the run from the military.  While Sam seems to have made enough peace with that to take military contracts, I don't see as either of them are interested in taking orders any more.


----------



## moriantumr

I knew things were going to be off when Walker said he always wanted people to feel safe. The actions taken to feel or make others feel safe can often harm others.


----------



## billd91

moriantumr said:


> I knew things were going to be off when Walker said he always wanted people to feel safe. The actions taken to feel or make others feel safe can often harm others.



Oh, sure. It was the Committee of Public Safety that was behind the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution. It was also the motivator for the the "committees of safety" that took over local government from the royalists during the American Revolution.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but what Bucky does in that second episode is pretty great without shining a huge light on what he's doing. 

When he takes Sam to see Isaiah Bradley it shows he's been listening to Sam. He's upset with him about not taking the mantle but he's trying to convince him that the mantle is indeed his to bear. To that end, he doesn't want to be back in Isaiah's life because of bad blood but it if introducing Sam to Isaiah is the only way to show Sam that Captain America is sort of a legacy thing and that a black man HAD the Super Soldier serum AND was patriot maybe that would remove a bit of the trepidation that Sam was experiencing. 

The thing I like about that scene is that Sam is shocked and horrified at the hint of what Isiah has been through. Meanwhile, I'm sure Bucky is fully aware of what happened to Isiah (as he knew EXACTLY where to find him) but because Bucky wasn't exactly himself during that time, what could he do? And then Isiah as an older man, the shock of seeing an old enemy show up at your house, an enemy who was responsible for the deaths of many civilians as well as fellow soldiers, while Isiah was doing nothing but serving his country wound up in lock up for 30 years? UGH.

That entire part in Isiah's house hit me in my heart. I felt bad for Sam as it almost reinforces his decision NOT to take up the mantle because why fight for or represent a country that has NEVER fought for or represented you. I felt bad for Bucky because it seems that every time he tries to do the right thing his past gets in the way and he REALLY wants to do the right thing because Steve believed in him. And Isiah just got traumatized by his old enemy showing up on his door step as a reminder of everything that he's been through. 

It was a GOOD episode.


----------



## Imaculata

ShinHakkaider said:


> That entire part in Isiah's house hit me in my heart.




It was really well acted. A powerful scene.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Imaculata said:


> It was really well acted. A powerful scene.



And then they come outside and the cops try to . . . do whatever messed up thing they were going to do to him. If Sam wasn't reaffirmed by seeing Isaiah that his country doesn't fight for him, he surely would have right after leaving. I really like this show. This episode was masterfully done.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

AcererakTriple6 said:


> And then they come outside and the cops try to . . . do whatever messed up thing they were going to do to him. If Sam wasn't reaffirmed by seeing Isaiah that his country doesn't fight for him, he surely would have right after leaving. I really like this show. This episode was masterfully done.




Everything in that arrest scene was intentionally done to mirror the real world, or parts of the real US, at least. I don't want to lump the rest of the world in with the garbage going on in some of our cities.


----------



## Nikosandros

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Everything in that arrest scene was intentionally done to mirror the real world, or parts of the real US, at least. I don't want to lump the rest of the world in with the garbage going on in some of our cities.



The US is far from being the only country where that kind of garbage goes on...


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Everything in that arrest scene was intentionally done to mirror the real world, or parts of the real US, at least. I don't want to lump the rest of the world in with the garbage going on in some of our cities.



Based on what I've heard from people of color, this kind of thing is very widespread across the US (I don't know about other countries, though I'm sure similar things also happen elsewhere). Every person of color that I know has a story about a bad experience with a cop, so I would say that what happened in the arrest scene is a pretty accurate mirror of what often happens in the real world. I'm also assuming that's the writers' point with including it, to show that this happens a lot and can happen to any person of color, even if they're famous.


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> He's a contractor.
> 
> Bucky was an outright unwilling government tool for decades, and he and Sam spent a couple of years on the run from the military.  While Sam seems to have made enough peace with that to take military contracts, I don't see as either of them are interested in taking orders any more.




I’ve got a family who are ex-Navy and my wifes family are ex-SAS. its very clear that even though they are all now retired ‘civilians’ they still have fellowship and respect for other service personnel.

My brother in law was SAS (special forces) and has been a military contractor in Iraq and PNG. What we also need to remember is The specialist getting military contracts arent the kind that need to take orders, they’ve been hired to _lead_ a job and to advise others. But most still respect the chain of command even if they arent subject to it.

I observe that with how my brother in law approaches the world, my family is constantly amused how, even on a family outing to the beach, you can observe him prepping his gear with precision and on arrival on site scanning the area to make sure its secure before proceeding.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Based on what I've heard from people of color, this kind of thing is very widespread across the US (I don't know about other countries, though I'm sure similar things also happen elsewhere). Every person of color that I know has a story about a bad experience with a cop, so I would say that what happened in the arrest scene is a pretty accurate mirror of what often happens in the real world. I'm also assuming that's the writers' point with including it, to show that this happens a lot and can happen to any person of color, even if they're famous.




Yep, and not just that. The police are pretty much ready to draw their weapons on Sam, rather than try and arrest, if Sam were at fault. While with Bucky, once they see the warrant, are all polite and apologetic and gets loose handcuffs in the front, rather than the standard tight handcuffs behind the back. The hero is black and is treated like crap at first, and the former killer is white and treated nicely. The show was filmed months and months ago, but these scenes are very relevant today.


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> I’ve got a family who are ex-Navy and my wifes family are ex-SAS. its very clear that even though they are all now retired ‘civilians’ they still have fellowship and respect for other service personnel.




In general, sure.  And Sam shows how he still works well alongside military personnel, and cares about them in the opening of the very first episode, and how he reacts when his liaison decided to investigate a Flag Smasher gathering personally...

But respecting military personnel does not mean you want to take orders from them, or want them inserting themselves into your work in the role of your most trusted friend and leader.  It does not mean someone else gets to be Cap.


----------



## Rune

Umbran said:


> It does not mean someone else gets to be Cap.



And I think also Sam and Bucky both recognize that Walker misunderstands something fundamental about Steve Rogers. Walker thinks Rogers was driven because he has guts, but that’s not quite right. 

Rogers really disliked bullies. 

Walker, on the other hand, fundamentally _is_ a bully.


----------



## Janx

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Based on what I've heard from people of color, this kind of thing is very widespread across the US (I don't know about other countries, though I'm sure similar things also happen elsewhere). Every person of color that I know has a story about a bad experience with a cop, so I would say that what happened in the arrest scene is a pretty accurate mirror of what often happens in the real world. I'm also assuming that's the writers' point with including it, to show that this happens a lot and can happen to any person of color, even if they're famous.




This harkens back to the earlier pages about ep 1 and some dude was saying 'well in film class, we were taught if they don't actually say something racist..."

This entire series will have stuff that happens to black folk, that isn't going to wear a bedsheet, but shows how it happens.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yep, and not just that. The police are pretty much ready to draw their weapons on Sam, rather than try and arrest, if Sam were at fault. While with Bucky, once they see the warrant, are all polite and apologetic and gets loose handcuffs in the front, rather than the standard tight handcuffs behind the back. The hero is black and is treated like crap at first, and the former killer is white and treated nicely. The show was filmed months and months ago, but these scenes are very relevant today.



All of this reminds me of the stories I've read from black men who served in WWII how they witnessed German POW's being treated better than they were. And how a many of them, even in uniform, retuned home to be victims of harassment and lynchings.


----------



## Sacrosanct

Paul Farquhar said:


> Sam has been working with the military, so he probably has some kind of military status.
> 
> Anyway, the people I know who have been in the armed forces never _stop_ being soldiers.



yeah we do.  we get old and fat, and out of shape.  And most of us who left did so because we were tired of dealing with all the BS


----------



## Tonguez

Rune said:


> And I think also Sam and Bucky both recognize that Walker misunderstands something fundamental about Steve Rogers. Walker thinks Rogers was driven because he has guts, but that’s not quite right.
> 
> Rogers really disliked bullies.
> 
> Walker, on the other hand, fundamentally _is_ a bully.




So where on screen has Walker been shown to be _fundamentally_ a bully? 
I can understand that as audience we can assume things but personally I cant think of any specific scene or dialogue which shows bullying from Walker.


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> So where on screen has Walker been shown to be _fundamentally_ a bully?




On screen, it hasn't been seen yet.  I expect it'll be coming along soon, but you are correct to note it hasn't been shown.

However, I will also accept that guys with long association with the military may have a gut reaction without knowing why.  We, the viewers, may get the idea he's bad news _because_ Bucky and Sam don't take to him.  It isn't quite as good as having a dog growl at Walker, but...


----------



## Rune

Tonguez said:


> So where on screen has Walker been shown to be _fundamentally_ a bully?
> I can understand that as audience we can assume things but personally I cant think of any specific scene or dialogue which shows bullying from Walker.



Every single interaction he’s had with Sam and Bucky (and Bucky’s therapist) has been a power play in which he has made it clear that he’s the guy with power and he will use that power to get what he wants. Literally every single interaction.

That is exactly the kind of thing Cap spent his career standing up against (in individuals _and_ in systems). Because, as Rogers told us, _he doesn’t like bullies._

But don’t take my word for it. Wait and see. Walker doesn’t respect people (not even Battlestar). His actions will reflect that.


----------



## Umbran

Rune said:


> Every single interaction he’s had with Sam and Bucky (and Bucky’s therapist) has been a power play in which he has made it clear that he’s the guy with power and he will use that power to get what he wants. Literally every single interaction.




So far, he does it with a smile.  But I think this is a fair reading.


----------



## Tonguez

Rune said:


> Every single interaction he’s had with Sam and Bucky (and Bucky’s therapist) has been a power play in which he has made it clear that he’s the guy with power and he will use that power to get what he wants. Literally every single interaction.
> 
> That is exactly the kind of thing Cap spent his career standing up against (in individuals _and_ in systems). Because, as Rogers told us, _he doesn’t like bullies._
> 
> But don’t take my word for it. Wait and see. Walker doesn’t respect people (not even Battlestar). His actions will reflect that.



Thats certainly an interpretation, I agree that Walker is aware of his influence and has used it in various ways when interacting with Sam and Bucky. But my interpretation is a tad more generous. He wants to impress Sam and Bucky (due to their history with Cap) and while he may lack any subtlety his intentions so far have been to extend an olive branch and find a way for them all to work together.

But yes, if Marvel sticks to the trope its likely that Walker will do a heel turn, it would be more interesting imho if they subverted that, but unlikely given theres only 6 episodes)

NB Funny how by changing the word from powerplay to influence puts a different spin on things


----------



## Rune

Tonguez said:


> Thats certainly an interpretation, I agree that Walker is aware of his influence and has used it in various ways when interacting with Sam and Bucky. But my interpretation is a tad more generous. He wants to impress Sam and Bucky (due to their history with Cap) and while he may lack any subtlety his intentions so far have been to extend an olive branch and find a way for them all to work together.
> 
> But yes, if Marvel sticks to the trope its likely that Walker will do a heel turn, it would be more interesting imho if they subverted that, but unlikely given theres only 6 episodes)
> 
> NB Funny how by changing the word from powerplay to influence puts a different spin on things



Tropes aren’t real. They are arbitrary categories whose purpose is only a shorthand that allows the audience to assume they understand a work of art without actually looking closely at it. 

When one of the two of us is proven correct about Walker, it won’t be because the show followed or subverted a trope. It will be because it follow up on the character traits that it has already begun the work of presenting.

Assuming the characterization bears fruit, of course. Which, given the nuance with which these characters have been presented, I _am_ assuming.


----------



## Stalker0

Rune said:


> Tropes aren’t real.



Well...neither are tv shows, but we can still have real debates about them Tropes are a shorthand, allowing an audience to be informed about things with limited information, or in the case of subversion....can lead the audience to assume certain things that the author will twist to deliver a surprise.

But they are as real as any literary device or painting technique, it is the fact that people believe in them and understand them that gives them power and real form.


----------



## Rune

Stalker0 said:


> Well...neither are tv shows, but we can still have real debates about them Tropes are a shorthand, allowing an audience to be informed about things with limited information, or in the case of subversion....can lead the audience to assume certain things that the author will twist to deliver a surprise.
> 
> But they are as real as any literary device or painting technique, it is the fact that people believe in them and understand them that gives them power and real form.



Exactly. Tropes are an obstacle to _actually_ understanding the art.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Sacrosanct said:


> yeah we do.  we get old and fat, and out of shape.  And most of us who left did so because we were tired of dealing with all the BS



I knew an old soldier who got old and fat. But he clearly had a high threshold for BS, since he was a school laboratory technician in a Liverpool comprehensive!


----------



## hopeless

I think we're overlooking something important.
When Steve received the super soldier serum he was told it amplifies what the person is from within.
In his case it turned a decent good man into an extraordinary one, in the case of the Red Skull it turned a sociopath into a terrifying monster.
Walker once he receives his version of the super soldier might not receive such an extreme reaction, but what might be niggling mannerisms now is going to become all the more obvious once he recovers from that change.
So I suspect what looks like him trying to deal with the fact he cannot fit the shoes of his predecessor once he receives the super soldier serum we're going to see either him recognising that fact or something far worse.
After all this series really should have been released AFTER the Black Widow movie 



Spoiler



as that's where their version of the super soldier serum originates from...
Now are they going to retcon that?


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> I think we're overlooking something important.
> When Steve received the super soldier serum he was told it amplifies what the person is from within.
> In his case it turned a decent good man into an extraordinary one, in the case of the Red Skull it turned a sociopath into a terrifying monster.
> Walker once he receives his version of the super soldier might not receive such an extreme reaction, but what might be niggling mannerisms now is going to become all the more obvious once he recovers from that change.
> So I suspect what looks like him trying to deal with the fact he cannot fit the shoes of his predecessor once he receives the super soldier serum we're going to see either him recognising that fact or something far worse.
> After all this series really should have been released AFTER the Black Widow movie as that's where their version of the super soldier serum originates from...
> Now are they going to retcon that?



How are we overlooking it if it hasn't happened?

We don't know whether Walker will ever receive any version of the super soldier serum. We don't know whether the Flag Smashers gain their enhanced abilities from a super soldier serum or from some other source. And if they are using some version of that serum, we don't know whether it still functions the same way as Dr Erskine's original formula, or is a heavily modified version.


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> On screen, it hasn't been seen yet.  I expect it'll be coming along soon, but you are correct to note it hasn't been shown.
> 
> However, I will also accept that guys with long association with the military may have a gut reaction without knowing why.  We, the viewers, may get the idea he's bad news _because_ Bucky and Sam don't take to him.  It isn't quite as good as having a dog growl at Walker, but...



I've seen two signs that Walker is trouble.  Despite ep2 being designed to make Walker look good.

1) he pulled a gun and shot one of the supes.  Up until that point, everyone was just wrasslin'
2) at the end of the episode, he told Sam and Bucky to not get in his way with that slight hint of "menace"

Much like the racism, it's going to be hard to prove in court.


----------



## MarkB

Janx said:


> 1) he pulled a gun and shot one of the supes.  Up until that point, everyone was just wrasslin'



Aside from when Sam sent Redwing in to open up with its built-in automatic rifle, you mean?


----------



## hopeless

He seems remarkably adept with that shield.
I'm wondering if he's going to be badly hurt and then get the serum or he has already received it and his actions from this point will demonstrate this?


----------



## hopeless

Surprised he let Redwing close into melee range rather than stay out of reach given what happened.

Oh and that text she received, was that intended to make her go ballistic on Bucky and Sam or to egg her on believing she's being targeted?


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Surprised he let Redwing close into melee range rather than stay out of reach given what happened.



To be fair, it was only within superhuman-leap range. He may have underestimated their abilities.


hopeless said:


> Oh and that text she received, was that intended to make her go ballistic on Bucky and Sam or to egg her on believing she's being targeted?



You mean the one she received after the fight, from someone saying that she took what was theirs and they were going to kill her? I'd guess it was from someone she stole stuff from (possibly the stuff in the trucks, possibly whatever is the source of their powers), and who is intending to kill her.


----------



## Dire Bare

MarkB said:


> To be fair, it was only within superhuman-leap range. He may have underestimated their abilities.
> 
> You mean the one she received after the fight, from someone saying that she took what was theirs and they were going to kill her? I'd guess it was from someone she stole stuff from (possibly the stuff in the trucks, possibly whatever is the source of their powers), and who is intending to kill her.



I'm not sure they've outright made it clear . . . . but the Flag-Smashers stole super-serum from the Power Broker to gain their super-powers, and he's not happy with them! That's who they were fleeing from in Episode 2.


----------



## Blue

Rune said:


> Exactly. Tropes are an obstacle to _actually_ understanding the art.



Tropes are tools that have been successful enough to be used again and again, either intentionally or rediscovered.

They are ways of doing things that may be used, not used, or subverted (again intentionally or not) by the content creators.  Your understanding of it is after the fact, and has no impact on the creation.


----------



## Eric V

Tonguez said:


> So where on screen has Walker been shown to be _fundamentally_ a bully?
> I can understand that as audience we can assume things but personally I cant think of any specific scene or dialogue which shows bullying from Walker.



Yeah, when he was in the jeep, asking for them to get in over and over again, it was obvious to me he was a little starstruck.

Then, he tried to show how useful he was by getting Bucky out of jail.  It's only at the end, when they flat out reject him, that Walker flexes and warns them.  I agree that he is hardly _fundamentally _a bully.  Not if you go just based on the show without the comic knowledge (as the three other people in my house are doing).


----------



## Morrus

Rune said:


> Every single interaction he’s had with Sam and Bucky (and Bucky’s therapist) has been a power play in which he has made it clear that he’s the guy with power and he will use that power to get what he wants. Literally every single interaction.



I’ve not really seen that in him.


Rune said:


> But don’t take my word for it. Wait and see. Walker doesn’t respect people (not even Battlestar). His actions will reflect that.



I’m sure. If it’s a character from a comic book that you’re familiar with, and you say that’s the character, I believe you, and I’m sure that’s where it will go. For me he’s a brand new character and he seems fine if a bit out of his depth.

I guess foreknowledge can alter your perception of a character’s portrayal.


----------



## hopeless

The Power Broker threatening her specifically?
Unlikely, wasn't they warned they were about to be raided?


----------



## Janx

Morrus said:


> I’ve not really seen that in him.
> 
> I’m sure. If it’s a character from a comic book that you’re familiar with, and you say that’s the character, I believe you, and I’m sure that’s where it will go. For me he’s a brand new character and he seems fine if a bit out of his depth.
> 
> I guess foreknowledge can alter your perception of a character’s portrayal.



That's a quibble I have with folks mining the comics for clues in the show.  I mean, yes, we know when somebody in the show has the same name from the comics, it'll means something.  But it kinda takes the air out of the room when they go on and on about how it'll be. 

How about we see what Isaiah means in the MCU.  Yeah, we coulda guessed this new Captain America might be trouble, we don't need to know he became US Agent, etc.


----------



## Umbran

Rune said:


> Tropes aren’t real. They are arbitrary categories whose purpose is only a shorthand that allows the audience to assume they understand a work of art without actually looking closely at it.




Tropes are meta-language, a shorthand that the artist can use to quickly give an audience understanding and expectations, that they can then also subvert for effect.  They are totally a real thing, as much as any concept (and thus, any art) is real, because _art exists in a context of other art_, and artists borrow elements from each other constantly. Art exists in genres with shared elements - those shared elements are tropes.


----------



## Staffan

Dire Bare said:


> I'm not sure they've outright made it clear . . . . but the Flag-Smashers stole super-serum from the Power Broker to gain their super-powers, and he's not happy with them! That's who they were fleeing from in Episode 2.



I don't know where I got the impression, but I thought it was more that they had gotten it from the Power Broker and then refused to pay rather than that they stole it in the first place. That's cutting some hairs mighty thin, though.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> How are we overlooking it if it hasn't happened?
> 
> We don't know whether Walker will ever receive any version of the super soldier serum. We don't know whether the Flag Smashers gain their enhanced abilities from a super soldier serum or from some other source. And if they are using some version of that serum, we don't know whether it still functions the same way as Dr Erskine's original formula, or is a heavily modified version.




Sam and Bucky fight the Flag Smashers, and wonder how they got their powers, but have no leads.  They go to see Isaiah Bradley, and he remarks on how he was held by "your people" (meaning Hydra) and lots of samples taken - presumably in efforts to recreate the serum.  Sam and Bucky then tell us they are going to look for Zemo to follow that lead.

If the Flag Smashers aren't using something akin to a super-soldier serum, then this is a red herring.  The show is only six episodes, I don't think they have time for red herrings.  So, while we don't _know_ it, it is a pretty reasonable expectation that it won't be something totally unrelated.


----------



## Umbran

Staffan said:


> I don't know where I got the impression, but I thought it was more that they had gotten it from the Power Broker and then refused to pay rather than that they stole it in the first place. That's cutting some hairs mighty thin, though.




I think it could be either way - though, I sure hope that truck was actually medical supplies, and not super-soldier serum, because otherwise.... that's a whole lot of implied super-soldiers that are coming out of that truck.


----------



## Dire Bare

Morrus said:


> I’ve not really seen that in him.
> 
> I’m sure. If it’s a character from a comic book that you’re familiar with, and you say that’s the character, I believe you, and I’m sure that’s where it will go. For me he’s a brand new character and he seems fine if a bit out of his depth.
> 
> I guess foreknowledge can alter your perception of a character’s portrayal.



I agree that Walker is out of his depth, as portrayed so far. But I'm also seeing his power plays too, and I'm not super familiar with the comics. What I'm enjoying about the character so far is that he's very fleshed out and given depth. It seems like he's being set up as an antagonist to Falcon and Bucky, but he's hardly a villain . . . at least so far.

While comic book nerds can gather clues about the new Captain America from his portrayal in the comics, it's important to remember that most comic book characters have been portrayed differently over the years. From what I've been reading on John Walker . . . . he's been a villain, a hero, and a misguided hero-antagonist at different times. How will the MCU John Walker shake out? It could go a number of different ways, and that's assuming they stick closely to one of his comics portrayals.

In the show, while I do think Walker is pulling power plays on Falcon and Buck . . . I also am a little irritated with their characters for not giving him much of a chance to prove himself. Irritated in a good way, I'm enjoying the story about flawed heroes!


----------



## trappedslider

I think Bucky was disappointed by Walker's answer about throwing himself on a grenade, but i also think he already knew what answer he would get.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> I’ve not really seen that in him.




It is a bit subtle, probably because they don't want John Walker to be a blatant mustache-twirling villain.

But, let us consider - if you want to help work on a life-risking mission, what do you do:
1) Say, "Hey, this is important, and I want it to succeed, can I come along?", or
2) Secretly track them across an ocean and jump in unannounced in the middle of a fight?

It looks like Walker could have approached Sam and Bucky _at any time_, but chose that time to do so.  It looks contrived to prove how much Sam and Bucky need him.  If his real concerns were success of the mission, and Sam and Bucky's welfare, he'd have allowed them to plan the operation including his ability.  Assuming he's not a tactical idiot (and he's held the rank of Captain" before, so probably not) then it was calculated.



Morrus said:


> I guess foreknowledge can alter your perception of a character’s portrayal.




Oh, definitely.  And all the while I am saying that the guy's probably bad, I'm half-hoping they defy that expectation in some interesting way.

But ultimately, "John Walker is a good guy, and Sam and Bucky are just wrong to reject him," probably isn't a great Sam and Bucky story.


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> Tropes are meta-language, a shorthand that the artist can use to quickly give an audience understanding and expectations, that they can then also subvert for effect.  They are totally a real thing, as much as any concept (and thus, any art) is real, because _art exists in a context of other art_, and artists borrow elements from each other constantly. Art exists in genres with shared elements - those shared elements are tropes.



Indeed.  Tropes are like terms like climax, inciting incident, denouement.  They are jargon about the craft and design patterns of story telling.  They exist because these conceptual constructs coalesced as effective models in stories.  It is hard to make a good story without these pieces.  And most good stories that were made with no knowledge of these constructs turn out to have these constructs in them.


----------



## hopeless

The story might work better if Walker eventually understands what he's going through will besmirch both his country and the shield so gives up the shield voluntarily rather than forced to do so.


----------



## Morrus

hopeless said:


> The story might work better if Walker eventually understands what he's going through will besmirch both his country and the shield so gives up the shield voluntarily rather than forced to do so.



What story? What is he doing that besmerches his country? Fighting superpowered terrorists? Not putting up with attitude from b-list superheroes? What has this guy done wrong? Looked a bit smarmy?

I’m sure that’s what happens in the future, because you guys are telling me that’s what happens in the comics. But on-screen? He’s fine.   He has been given a job by America and he’s doing it.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> Indeed.  Tropes are like terms like climax, inciting incident, denouement.  They are jargon about the craft and design patterns of story telling.




I think maybe you're using a technical definition that isn't so widely shared.  I think for these purposes, tropes are also themes and literary devices and stereotypes.  The hero "riding off into the sunset" is a trope of Western stories, for example.  The "manic pixie dream girl" is a trope.  That your movie climax has your heroes firing at a large object hanging in the sky is a trope.  The "slow-motion team walking abreast" shot is a trope that Guardians of the Galaxy broke slightly for effect, and so on.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> Oh, definitely.  And all the while I am saying that the guy's probably bad, I'm half-hoping they defy that expectation in some interesting way.



That's my hope as well, would be a lot more interesting than if Walker just turns heel and then we got to get him.

The super soldier thing will be really interesting, because how they go about it could have long reaching consequences for the MCU. With the various Winter Soldiers, we at least got the idea that the serum had flaws and it took a long time to bring those soldiers up and about (aka some of the flashback scenes we see in Civil War). But if there is now a better serum out there (whether its now the original or simply a refined version of the winter soldier one or a brand new one), that has a lot of possible consequences. 

If people can now "buy superpowers", it opens up a whole new ballgame.


Oh and on the note about Walker and guns, Cap has used a gun, and in CA II, when he gets on that boat....many of the people he takes out he flat out kills. CA is a nice guy....but he's also a soldier and a warrior, and you do not want to be his enemy.


----------



## Umbran

hopeless said:


> The story might work better if Walker eventually understands what he's going through will besmirch both his country and the shield so gives up the shield voluntarily rather than forced to do so.




In the original comics, John Walker actually has to talk Steve Rogers into taking the shield back.  I think the analogous thing would be for Walker to realize that it will be better if Sam has the shield.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> What story? What is he doing that besmerches his country? Fighting superpowered terrorists? Not putting up with attitude from b-list superheroes? What has this guy done wrong? Looked a bit smarmy?
> 
> I’m sure that’s what happens in the future, because you guys are telling me that’s what happens in the comics. But on-screen? He’s fine.   He has been given a job by America and he’s doing it.




I have never read those comics, so I am just reading what is being talked about in the reviews of each episode. Instead, I am going on how the actor is portraying him as a smug ass, who is used to getting his way, and who does not like being told no. The actor is doing a good job at showing us that John is not like Steve. But then, all the actors on this show, and on WandaVision, have done great jobs at portraying their characters. Marvel has done an amazing job in the casting department so far.


----------



## Morrus

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am just reading what is being talked about in the reviews of each episode.



Got it. Different conversations.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> ...I am going on how the actor is portraying him as a smug ass, who is used to getting his way, and who does not like being told no.




I took some time to watch the episode again, with some effort to set aside preconceptions, and watch what he's actually doing.  And I still agree - when he talks with Bucky and Sam (and Bucky's therapist) he has a lot of... entitlement is the best word I have for it.  He still couches it in friendly terms, but the presumption is still there.  And I agree, it is well acted.


----------



## Rune

Morrus said:


> I’ve not really seen that in him.
> 
> I’m sure. If it’s a character from a comic book that you’re familiar with, and you say that’s the character, I believe you, and I’m sure that’s where it will go. For me he’s a brand new character and he seems fine if a bit out of his depth.
> 
> I guess foreknowledge can alter your perception of a character’s portrayal.



I guess it might, but I’m not personally applying any. Everything I’m talking about is stuff they’ve put on screen. It is nuanced and sometimes subtle, of course (thus, not blatantly obvious, and, thus, disputable). But the other thing it has been is _consistent_. 

His interactions reflect it and his tactics reflect it (remember, he targets civilians – his words). I don’t think he means to be a bully. He simply does not have the innate respect for people that his predecessor had and consequently seems to have no qualms about using his power to control those who lack it.


----------



## Morrus

Rune said:


> Everything I’m talking about is stuff they’ve put on screen. It is nuanced and sometimes subtle, of course (thus, not blatantly obvious, and, thus, disputable).



I guess I just didn't get it then.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

On a totally different note, I do not think I saw anyone mention this, but does everyone remember how Cap's shield was broken by Thanos, yet at the end of Endgame, Steve gives Sam a brand-new looking shield? This, along with comments by the directors of Endgame, pretty much confirm that Steve lived out his life in an alternate timeline before returning to his home timeline with a new shield. The theory in this article is interesting, saying that in this alternate timeline the alternate Sam has already been Captain America:









						This 'Avengers: Endgame' Theory Suggests Falcon Has Already Been Captain America
					

"Like it's someone else's."




					www.yahoo.com
				




But whether any of this will factor into this show, I don't have a guess.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> On a totally different note, I do not think I saw anyone mention this, but does everyone remember how Cap's shield was broken by Thanos, yet at the end of Endgame, Steve gives Sam a brand-new looking shield? This, along with comments by the directors of Endgame, pretty much confirm that Steve lived out his life in an alternate timeline before returning to his home timeline with a new shield. The theory in this article is interesting, saying that in this alternate timeline the alternate Sam has already been Captain America:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This 'Avengers: Endgame' Theory Suggests Falcon Has Already Been Captain America
> 
> 
> "Like it's someone else's."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But whether any of this will factor into this show, I don't have a guess.



I mean, he's also good friends with King T'Challa. If he needed a new shield, I'm pretty sure he could've quietly had one commissioned in this universe.


----------



## Tonguez

Morrus said:


> I guess I just didn't get it then.




I wonder if its one of those fabled culture gap things and the nuance depends of if you are seeing them through an American or non-American lens


----------



## Morrus

Tonguez said:


> I wonder if its one of those fabled culture gap things and the nuance depends of if you are seeing them through an American or non-American lens



I think it’s probably more down to having read the comics or not.


----------



## Rune

Tonguez said:


> I wonder if its one of those fabled culture gap things and the nuance depends of if you are seeing them through an American or non-American lens



_Or_ – and bear with me, because I’m going out on a limb, here – it _could_ be that the point of nuance is that different people within the audience will see different things based on their own perspectives and experiences. In an ideal world, those people would then congregate on (for example) message boards, compare and contrast those perspectives and each come away with a broader view of the world. 

Since the show is presenting us with such nuance, I assume that is the intent.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> I mean, he's also good friends with King T'Challa. If he needed a new shield, I'm pretty sure he could've quietly had one commissioned in this universe.




If you like that theory, but the Russo brothers pretty much admitted that the new shield came from the alternate timeline. Their talking about that is actually in another article I would have to look up again.


----------



## Rune

Morrus said:


> I think it’s probably more down to having read the comics or not.



Again. No. As I said before, I am _only_ talking about the characters as presented in the show. I see what I see. 

If you guys don’t see it, that’s probably intentional on the part of the creators. I’m betting you will by the end of the series because, structurally, I don’t know why they would include it if they weren’t going to build on it. But I can’t read the future, just the present.


----------



## Morrus

Rune said:


> I’m betting you will by the end of the series



Well obviously I will by the end, because that’s who the character is. The odds on them not making him like the character he apparently is in the comics seem pretty slim.


----------



## MoonSong

Morrus said:


> Well obviously I will by the end, because that’s who the character is. The odds on them not making him like the character he apparently is in the comics seem pretty slim.



But again, they could always go the way of the Skrull twist...


----------



## Imaculata

Umbran said:


> I took some time to watch the episode again, with some effort to set aside preconceptions, and watch what he's actually doing.  And I still agree - when he talks with Bucky and Sam (and Bucky's therapist) he has a lot of... entitlement is the best word I have for it.  He still couches it in friendly terms, but the presumption is still there.  And I agree, it is well acted.




Yeah, on a surface level he seems like a good guy. But there are subtle hints in the episode that he is bad news.

The fact that he brings a gun, which Steve never did. His casual threat to Falcon and Bucky. He seems more hot headed. It's subtle, but it's already there.


----------



## Older Beholder

I might be wrong but I think it was Walker that had Bucky arrested, at first when he talks to the therapist and she asks who authorised it I figured she meant the release, but on second viewing I think she’s talking about the therapy session Bucky missed in the first place.

Which would mean the guy used his authority to have Bucky arrested, and when they refuse to be his ‘wingman’ as he puts it earlier he threatens them.

Even the way he flashes a siren at them when they’re leaving the police station is an example of his entitlement and abuse of authority.


----------



## Umbran

Imaculata said:


> The fact that he brings a gun, which Steve never did.




Never?


Spoiler: Well, actually...



So, in The First Avenger, he has a M1911A1 strapped to his thigh, and uses it.





And in the Avengers....this one he didn't bring, but he has no hesitance using it...


----------



## Janx

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> On a totally different note, I do not think I saw anyone mention this, but does everyone remember how Cap's shield was broken by Thanos, yet at the end of Endgame, Steve gives Sam a brand-new looking shield? This, along with comments by the directors of Endgame, pretty much confirm that Steve lived out his life in an alternate timeline before returning to his home timeline with a new shield. The theory in this article is interesting, saying that in this alternate timeline the alternate Sam has already been Captain America:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This 'Avengers: Endgame' Theory Suggests Falcon Has Already Been Captain America
> 
> 
> "Like it's someone else's."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But whether any of this will factor into this show, I don't have a guess.



One benefit of this theory is that Peggy Carter who has dementia or something won't be blabbing about living her life with Steve Rogers during the hospital appearance..


----------



## Imaculata

Umbran said:


> Never?




I had totally forgotten about that. I stand corrected.


----------



## Sacrosanct

Really, there are so many variations in the comics, and conveniently the whole idea of multiple time lines/dimensions, pretty much means they can do this storyline however they want, and we can't really predict what will happed if we're using storylines from the comics or movies as a guide.  The whole multiple time line thing seems to be overdone IMO from both DC and Marvel.  It seems like little more of a tool/excuse than "I want to write a different version using the same characters and not have to stick with previous canon."

It would be like if Star Wars suddenly started having multiple time lines just because a writer wanted to write a story where Luke works for the emperor.  Used sparingly or once or twice?  Sure.  But both Marvel and DC to use it a lot?  Meh.


----------



## hopeless

It needs to make sense for example Nando the one who does the reimagining film and tv series has come up with one for Wandavision where instead of Agatha being one of the villains is actually trying to help Wanda back from her breakdown.
There are only 6 episodes on this series isn't there?
If true that means only 4 episodes left to explain all this stuff and I'm not sure that's enough time to put this all together?


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> On a totally different note, I do not think I saw anyone mention this, but does everyone remember how Cap's shield was broken by Thanos, yet at the end of Endgame, Steve gives Sam a brand-new looking shield? This, along with comments by the directors of Endgame, pretty much confirm that Steve lived out his life in an alternate timeline before returning to his home timeline with a new shield.




So, I'd go one farther - by the logic of the movie, that's probably not "our" Steve Rogers, from the MCU Earth-199999.  

We are told that time travel (with these big, important items) tends to make alternate timelines.  And, we are told that the way for folks to come back to their original timeline is _through the portal_.  But, Old Steve doesn't seem to come through the portal.  The Russo's have made clear that he didn't come "the long way around" - he jumped timelines as an old man, without using the portal.  Ergo, he is probably not in his home - that's probably Steve-199998.

Maybe Steve-1999998 didn't have his shield broken by Thanos - his fight went a bit differently.  So, at the end, he comes back and has a shield to drop off.  

This also means that they have a potential future story where Steve-199999 shows up again, young, having started his life with Peggy-XYZ in an alternate timeline, but having to come back for some reason...


----------



## Umbran

hopeless said:


> There are only 6 episodes on this series isn't there?
> If true that means only 4 episodes left to explain all this stuff and I'm not sure that's enough time to put this all together?




WandaVision demonstrated that they don't seem to feel a need to answer _every_ plot question, so maybe don't expect that.


----------



## Blue

Imaculata said:


> Yeah, on a surface level he seems like a good guy. But there are subtle hints in the episode that he is bad news.
> 
> The fact that he brings a gun, which Steve never did. His casual threat to Falcon and Bucky. He seems more hot headed. It's subtle, but it's already there.



Falcon has a more powerful gun in Redwing then the handgun Walker had, as well as explosive missiles (from the opening scene of Civil War) so if it's true it means The Falcon is a horrible person.

And this is assuming we buy the "soldier having gun = bad".  Steve used guns in several movies, and the Howling Commandos definitely carried guns.  Much like John Walker, they were soldiers without the benefits of the super soldier serum.  We could _more truthfully_ declare that the effects of the Super Serum serum = Bad in the MCU with Red Skull, the various Winter Soldiers, and their current opponents having it with Steve as the only counter example.  But we don't, because it's a multiplier that really depends on how it's used - much like the weapons Wilson and Walker both use.


----------



## Umbran

Blue said:


> We could _more truthfully_ declare that the effects of the Super Serum serum = Bad in the MCU with Red Skull, the various Winter Soldiers, and their current opponents having it with Steve as the only counter example.  But we don't...




Actually, we kinda do.  Captain America is one of a small number of exceptions to the observation - willfully attempting to give people superpowers is not generally a great idea, 'cause of that whole "power corrupts" thing, and the amount of harm you do in search of that power.


----------



## hopeless

Since the Flag Smasher broke Red Wing how difficult will it be for Sam to replace it or repair it for that matter?


----------



## Imaculata

hopeless said:


> Since the Flag Smasher broke Red Wing how difficult will it be for Sam to replace it or repair it for that matter?




Depends. Does Amazon exist in the MCU?


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Since the Flag Smasher broke Red Wing how difficult will it be for Sam to replace it or repair it for that matter?



If Walker was accurate about it being government property, he might just be able to requisition a replacement - chalk it up to operational expenses.


----------



## Tonguez

MarkB said:


> If Walker was accurate about it being government property, he might just be able to requisition a replacement - chalk it up to operational expenses.




Yeah the status of Stark Tech is one of those things that Marvel Studios is brushing over at the moment (first with regards Vision and now with Redwing) - since his death has the government gone and requistion all  Starks Tech or is Pepper still in control?  

I see that Armour Wars is one of the upcoming shows, so I wonder if that question will be addressed then. Seeing as James Rhodes has cameo’d in F&WS I wouldnt be suprised if the two shows overlap and continue themes.

Thats also one of the things that does interest me now that the streaming shows are officially part of the MCU canon - will these various series serve both as distinct tales and as interconnected vignettes in the wider narrative.


----------



## MarkB

Tonguez said:


> Yeah the status of Stark Tech is one of those things that Marvel Studios is brushing over at the moment (first with regards Vision and now with Redwing) - since his death has the government gone and requistion all  Starks Tech or is Pepper still in control?



It's awhile since I saw Spider-man Far From Home, but didn't Stark basically bequeath his company to Peter Parker in that movie? In that case, since this series takes place after Stark's death but before that movie, the will would presumably be tied up in probate at this point.


----------



## Marc Radle

MarkB said:


> It's awhile since I saw Spider-man Far From Home, but didn't Stark basically bequeath his company to Peter Parker in that movie? In that case, since this series takes place after Stark's death but before that movie, the will would presumably be tied up in probate at this point.




I’m pretty sure Pepper is in charge of Stark Industries


----------



## Janx

Marc Radle said:


> I’m pretty sure Pepper is in charge of Stark Industries



yep, and logically, I think she would have had somebody look in on all the avengers' families, and helped out during the five year blip.


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> It's awhile since I saw Spider-man Far From Home, but didn't Stark basically bequeath his company to Peter Parker in that movie? In that case, since this series takes place after Stark's death but before that movie, the will would presumably be tied up in probate at this point.




Not his company, but access to a high tech defense system, probably Tony's way of going "its dangerous out there, and I want to give you this to protect yourself". Pepper controls the company.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Tonguez said:


> Androids, Aliens and Wizards - did they just reveal Marvels Phase 4 storyarc?



Just wait until they find out about mutants!


moriantumr said:


> The family fishing boat loan scene and the reveal of Captain America also set up the fact that despite being a hero, in America, he is still subjected to racism



I’m glad they aren’t going to ignore that part of the history of Sam as Cap. 


Marc_C said:


> There must be a sentence, a telling camera shot or facial expression that states the person is racist.



Not really, but in this case there is that. The sister. (And the guy demanding Sam perform for him while also denying him a loan that Sam should qualify for, but apparently that’s too subtle). 


wicked cool said:


> Many who are implying racism need to try and start a business with no income/tons of debt etc.



If you don’t see how that scene is about racism, you are missing information. 


hawkeyefan said:


> Although I agree at times LC leaned into some cartoonish villainy, I thought that at other times, the kind of sudden and extreme racism the characters encountered was similar to the way mythos monsters would suddenly intrude upon reality. That kind of comparison between supernatural horror and a real, tangible horror worked for me.



It also just like, rings true for a lot of people.  Seemingly normal folks can just flip a switch sometimes and become absolutely monstrous.
That’s the real horror, the fact that the world’s monsters are literally all fully realized 3dimensional humans with complex internal lives. They’re just folks. Every single one. 


Enevhar Aldarion said:


> It gets deeper, or more subtle, than systemic racism, to the point of unconscious, or sub-conscious, biases. The stuff that happens without someone even being aware they are acting that way or saying those things. Wait til we really get going with the character of Monica Rambeau or Kamala Khan, then we will see the subtle sexism thrown into the mix with the racism. But if these shows are done right, while they won't have any positive impact on the real haters, because racism is all about hate and making someone less than you, hopefully there will be positive change with people and their unconscious biases, those people who do not hate, but still do or say things that make people feel less than equal.



My big hope for these shows, and the increase in creators of color getting their voices onto big platforms in general, is that “moderates” will become more comfortable calling out bigotry and correcting their peers. 

We won’t stamp out racism, but we can make it such a fringe that someone has to someday assure their grandkids that it was a real problem. 


MoonSong said:


> Precisely, Sam qualified for the loan consolidation. He would have gotten it if not for the changed done in the wake of the blip and people returning. However, these terms to shield the bank from a lot of people suddenly returning with no income for five years also happen to disproportionately exclude a lot of impoverished and disenfranchised people (who happen to not be white more often than not).



Those kinds of policy changes happen IRL, too, and they generally disproportionately impact families and business of color. 


MoonSong said:


> It would have been more subtle without the sister lamp-shading this, but it is pretty realist and I understand why they did it. I just hope they don't over do it in the future.



It would have been more subtle, but hardly more realistic. I’ve worked in a lot of public facing service jobs, and the scene reminds me of thousands of incidents I’ve witnessed while working with very friendly, professional, disarming, seemingly harmless and by the book, bigots.


----------



## trappedslider

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’m glad they aren’t going to ignore that part of the history of Sam as Cap.



When was Sam cap in the MCU?


----------



## ShinHakkaider

trappedslider said:


> When was Sam cap in the MCU?



Right around 2014 - 2015 in a storyline started by Rick Remender. A villain named named the Iron Nail removed or nullified Steve's Super Soldier Serum reverting him to an old man. Steve named Sam his successor at that point and Sam was Captain America for about two to three years (?) in the comics.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

trappedslider said:


> When was Sam cap in the MCU?



I didn’t say he had been in the MCU. In the comics, he was for several years.


----------



## Umbran

Marc_C said:


> There must be a sentence, a telling camera shot or facial expression that states the person is racist. Otherwise you are in the realm of personal interpretation.




Somehow I missed this, and I'd like to comment...

Modern racism uses _exactly what you are saying_ as an excuse to deny it exists!  The show is demonstrating to the audience how people who don't actually say or directly indicate, "I dislike you for the color of your skin," still are part of a cultural system that keeps people of color at a disadvantage.

The actual point is that the banker can argue to himself that there was nothing wrong with what happened!


----------



## Maxperson

Tonguez said:


> Yeah the status of Stark Tech is one of those things that Marvel Studios is brushing over at the moment (first with regards Vision and now with Redwing) - since his death has the government gone and requistion all  Starks Tech or is Pepper still in control?



You know.  Stark Tech 1 and 3 kinda sucked, but Stark Tech 2, 4 and 6 were pretty good.


----------



## Imaculata

Umbran said:


> Somehow I missed this, and I'd like to comment...
> 
> Modern racism uses _exactly what you are saying_ as an excuse to deny it exists!  The show is demonstrating to the audience how people who don't actually say or directly indicate, "I dislike you for the color of your skin," still are part of a cultural system that keeps people of color at a disadvantage.
> 
> The actual point is that the banker can argue to himself that there was nothing wrong with what happened!




Further more, recognition of racism often IS a matter of personal perception. Where one person may see signs of racism, another may not. Because it isn't always as clear cut. And that is what makes the scene so good. The banker doesn't use blatant racism, but discriminates in a not so obvious way. People will read the scene differently, based on their own ability to discern racism in real life.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Imaculata said:


> Further more, recognition of racism often IS a matter of personal perception. Where one person may see signs of racism, another may not. Because it isn't always as clear cut.




And the opposite is true too. Some people see racism in everything. There are people out there who would call someone racist just because they do not like rap music or don't like Chinese food. I wonder if we will see any of this false racism in the show? Though the banker still may fit this because that character may not be racist at all, but his bosses are, since they are the ones with the final say on that loan.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And the opposite is true too. Some people see racism in everything. There are people out there who would call someone racist just because they do not like rap music or don't like Chinese food. I wonder if we will see any of this false racism in the show? Though the banker still may fit this because that character may not be racist at all, but his bosses are, since they are the ones with the final say on that loan.



I am not sure he could hide behind his bosses here - would his bosses even know the skin color of the applicants?
I think in the end it's up to him, and he could try to do more, but he doesn't really care about them, so why bother?


----------



## moriantumr

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And the opposite is true too. Some people see racism in everything. There are people out there who would call someone racist just because they do not like rap music or don't like Chinese food. I wonder if we will see any of this false racism in the show? Though the banker still may fit this because that character may not be racist at all, but his bosses are, since they are the ones with the final say on that loan.




I suspect that ‘false racism’ is an echo of the systemic nature of racism rather than an actual threat. In the U.S. racism was and still is supported by government through rule of law. If the principles of a country are built on setting aside rights of certain individuals, that idea will find its way into all facets of society. Just because we do not see how something may be racist does not mean that it has not been influenced by a culture that enshrined racism in its laws

On a side note, being called a racist is a chance to learn and change.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And the opposite is true too. Some people see racism in everything.




Rhetorically speaking this amounts to, "Some folks called this plant a tree, but it is clearly a shrub, therefore I question/dismiss/distract from the existence of the forest."

There may be some folks who are over-sensitive.  But, concern about them entails a fundamental failure in sense of proportion.  While you are complaining about someone not liking your food preferences, hate-based crimes against Asian-Americans is up by 150% in the past year.  They're getting assaulted and beaten.  Some rando on the internet giving your menu choices some side-eye really doesn't compare.


----------



## Maxperson




----------



## Dire Bare

doctorbadwolf said:


> I didn’t say he had been in the MCU. In the comics, he was for several years.



I'm guessing by the end of "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier", Sam will be the next Captain America! Or at least, I hope so!

Both Sam and Bucky (and John Walker) have worn the mantle of Captain America in the comics, always handing it back to Steve at some point. That's one thing about the MCU that I'm hoping won't happen, that Steve Rogers is truly done with the role of Captain America.


----------



## Umbran

Dire Bare said:


> That's one thing about the MCU that I'm hoping won't happen, that Steve Rogers is truly done with the role of Captain America.




That will depend, I think, on how long the MCU lasts.

In the comics, you have nigh infinite time.  In movies, an actor only gets a few shots at a role before they age out of it.  Chris Evans is a normal human, and can't keep that up forever.  I expect Evans' Cap is done.

However, if they are still rolling in a decade or more?  If you can find someone as good as Evans, and recast?  Steve Rogers may be back.  I'd be okay with that.


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> That will depend, I think, on how long the MCU lasts.
> 
> In the comics, you have nigh infinite time.  In movies, an actor only gets a few shots at a role before they age out of it.  Chris Evans is a normal human, and can't keep that up forever.  I expect Evans' Cap is done.
> 
> However, if they are still rolling in a decade or more?  If you can find someone as good as Evans, and recast?  Steve Rogers may be back.  I'd be okay with that.



Or de-aging effects become even better, and start to become completely normalized. New Tom Cruise action film in 2045?


----------



## Dire Bare

Umbran said:


> That will depend, I think, on how long the MCU lasts.
> 
> In the comics, you have nigh infinite time.  In movies, an actor only gets a few shots at a role before they age out of it.  Chris Evans is a normal human, and can't keep that up forever.  I expect Evans' Cap is done.
> 
> However, if they are still rolling in a decade or more?  If you can find someone as good as Evans, and recast?  Steve Rogers may be back.  I'd be okay with that.



Yeah, I'm pretty sure Chris Evans has stated he's done with the role . . . although, through enough money his way, he might change his mind.

Eventually, the MCU connected universe will end and the Marvel stories will be rebooted. I just hope it's not anytime soon! Could they bring back Steve Rogers, with a different actor, within the current film/TV continuity?!?! I don't think they will, but you never know . . .


----------



## Umbran

Dire Bare said:


> Eventually, the MCU connected universe will end and the Marvel stories will be rebooted.




Thing is, given the genre, they don't need to end-and-reboot.  There's no need to go back to origins.  If they manage _recasting_, they can just keep on truckin'.


----------



## Dire Bare

Umbran said:


> Thing is, given the genre, they don't need to end-and-reboot.  There's no need to go back to origins.  If they manage _recasting_, they can just keep on truckin'.



They could do that . . . . I would be surprised if they did. We've got plenty of time before it becomes an issue, though!


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> Or de-aging effects become even better, and start to become completely normalized. New Tom Cruise action film in 2045?




If you have a story compelling enough that he wants to come back, and you are willing to pay the premium rate he'd have every right to ask for?  Fine.

But there's always a ton of actors looking for work.  If you are willing to look, you're pretty much assured there's some young buck out there who will do it for half the price.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> However, if they are still rolling in a decade or more? If you can find someone as good as Evans, and recast? Steve Rogers may be back. I'd be okay with that.



I wouldn't, necessarily. And I think enough fans would be skeptical of it to make doing it a bigger risk than most studios like to take. The "no stakes are actually real" nature of Marvel comics isn't exactly without it's enormous amount of criticism, after all.


----------



## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> I wouldn't, necessarily. And I think enough fans would be skeptical of it to make doing it a bigger risk than most studios like to take. The "no stakes are actually real" nature of Marvel comics isn't exactly without it's enormous amount of criticism, after all.




That old chestnut?  Do we need to have the "permanent death is not the only way to have meaningful stakes" discussion again, but on movies instead of RPGs?


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> That old chestnut?  Do we need to have the "permanent death is not the only way to have meaningful stakes" discussion again, but on movies instead of RPGs?



You pretty much brought it up by suggesting there would be nothing wrong with bringing Steve back, but also, Steve isn't dead. He had his ending. Not an ending I agree with, but it is conclusive and satisfying to the character. Having him come back, as an old man still, in an advisory role or something, would be fine. We saw in Falcon and Bucky Show ep2 that an old super soldier is still dangerous, after all. 

Recasting him so that we can have young Steve again, in the same continuity, would most likely be garbage cheap storytelling.


----------



## Maxperson

We just watched half the universe come back to life.


----------



## hopeless

And returning those infinity stones apparently required Steve to come to grips with his situation leading to him getting on with his life until he decided to return when he did.
So I'd agree about him returning in an advisory role, now if some event causes him to regain his youth though...


----------



## Maxperson

hopeless said:


> And returning those infinity stones apparently required Steve to come to grips with his situation leading to him getting on with his life until he decided to return when he did.
> So I'd agree about him returning in an advisory role, now if some event causes him to regain his youth though...



The Super Soldier serum is supposed to dramatically slow aging.  He shouldn't have been old in the first place.  Of course, the fact that he aged so much is evidence that they don't feel constrained to following the comics.  It could also be used as an justification to return his youth.


----------



## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> Recasting him so that we can have young Steve again, in the same continuity, would most likely be garbage cheap storytelling.




We have time travel galore, but rejuvination is "garbage".  Got it.  No need to discuss that any more.  Thanks.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Maxperson said:


> The Super Soldier serum is supposed to dramatically slow aging.  He shouldn't have been old in the first place.  Of course, the fact that he aged so much is evidence that they don't feel constrained to following the comics.  It could also be used as an justification to return his youth.




Maybe the whole frozen in ice for 70 years thing screwed it up in his system. Plus, look at Isaiah and his age. The version given to him did not slow his aging. So far, Bucky is the only one to get a version of the serum that has truly stopped his aging.


----------



## hopeless

In the comics he was drained of his super soldier serum and that was what caused the aging.
I think restoring some to him restored his youth.
I know there was a series where he discovered he was basically "juiced" up and after a brief time corrupted by a drug overdose he went through withdrawal in an effort to deal with his situation.
He fought Crossbones during that arc too.
I wonder what if when he returned he was captured and drained, but survived the experience and left with the shield?


----------



## billd91

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Maybe the whole frozen in ice for 70 years thing screwed it up in his system. Plus, look at Isaiah and his age. The version given to him did not slow his aging. So far, Bucky is the only one to get a version of the serum that has truly stopped his aging.



Or was it him being repeatedly put on ice? My guess is it's being put on ice.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Maybe the whole frozen in ice for 70 years thing screwed it up in his system. Plus, look at Isaiah and his age. The version given to him did not slow his aging. So far, Bucky is the only one to get a version of the serum that has truly stopped his aging.



Bucky was also frozen in ice for most of that time.


----------



## hopeless

That might be more due to the experimentation on him as they try to reverse engineer the super soldier serum he received.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Maybe the whole frozen in ice for 70 years thing screwed it up in his system.




He's referring to the comics continuity, in which he was frozen in ice, but _also_ experienced slow aging - he came out of the ice in the 1960s, and, aside from times that his powers were removed, he hasn't aged significantly in the decades since. The longevity thing is their way around how otherwise Rogers should be physically about 80 years old, which is a bit much for shield-flinging and jumping around an punching people, you know?

I don't think they're playing the longevity card in the MCU at this time.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> We have time travel galore, but rejuvination is "garbage".  Got it.  No need to discuss that any more.  Thanks.



Oh come on, this is a blatantly ridiculous reply that has nothing at all do with what I even said. 

Reversing a poignant and meaningful ending for a character later on in a franchise is almost universally considered weak writing. It robs that ending of its meaning and poignancy, and thus the bar for it being a good story beat is astronomically higher than it is for introducing a new character or moving a character forward into a new chapter (ie telling stories about an old man Steve who just can’t seem to force himself to fully retire).

You keep trying to imply some sort of universalism to my statements, by the way you reply to them, that isn’t there, which is a weird thing to do. To then do the old “I’m gonna throw a strawman argument at you and then run away” that you’ve done here is just...wild! Especially coming from a moderator who has told others not to do that numerous times.


----------



## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> Oh come on, this is a blatantly ridiculous reply that has nothing at all do with what I even said.




What part of "there is no need to discuss that any more" failed to register?  There really is no point to continuing.  You've had the last word.  Enjoy it.


----------



## billd91

Umbran said:


> He's referring to the comics continuity, in which he was frozen in ice, but _also_ experienced slow aging - he came out of the ice in the 1960s, and, aside from times that his powers were removed, he hasn't aged significantly in the decades since.



To be honest, nor has anyone else. Maybe Power Pack? *Everyone* slow ages in a literary universe that's semi-frozen in time.

The big difference for most characters is Captain American involves a fixed point in time and in an important way. Magneto is also importantly tied to the WWII timeframe. Most everyone else has any specific reference in time downplayed. Who remembers that Black Widow was a kid at Stalingrad? Or that Ben Grimm and Reed Richards are WWII vets? Or that Charles Xavier was a Korean War vet?

That said, Cap's emergence from suspended animation could be just as nebulous as any other time frame in the Marvel Universe. While for us it was the 1960s, with the sliding timeline it can always be somewhat more recently.


----------



## Umbran

billd91 said:


> To be honest, nor has anyone else. Maybe Power Pack? *Everyone* slow ages in a literary universe that's semi-frozen in time.




Yeah, but as you noted, for most everyone else, their important dates are not fixed in real-world history.  Since they are maintianing that fixed point in the comics, this addresses any issues about that simply.



billd91 said:


> That said, Cap's emergence from suspended animation could be just as nebulous as any other time frame in the Marvel Universe. While for us it was the 1960s, with the sliding timeline it can always be somewhat more recently.




Now, we can say that.  Back when they established his extended lifespan (back in the real-world 1980s, I believe) they only had the one character who really needed that question addressed. 

They weren't thinking, "But, in another 40 years, this is still going to be a problem, we should just generalize it" because the idea that they'd still be telling these stories 40 years on probably seemed kinda silly.  Remember, the Marvel comics universe was not pre-planned to span a century.  This is organic development in storytelling in ways not seen in most other genres.

So, now, they have a thing they can play with around Steve's age now and then, if that adds to the story.


----------



## tomBitonti

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Maybe the whole frozen in ice for 70 years thing screwed it up in his system. Plus, look at Isaiah and his age. The version given to him did not slow his aging. So far, Bucky is the only one to get a version of the serum that has truly stopped his aging.



But, wasn't Bucky also in suspended animation ("on ice") for a long time, too?
TomB


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

tomBitonti said:


> But, wasn't Bucky also in suspended animation ("on ice") for a long time, too?
> TomB




Replying to you and the others who quoted me or mentioned this, I would have to go back and look at the official MCU stuff, but he was obviously active in all decades since the 40's. The question is how active, or how long he was allowed out to do his crimes? From what I can see, yes, he was cryogenically frozen, but only in between all the assassination missions he was given. So the real question is how many of those was he sent on? How many of the 50 years he was a Hydra assassin were spent frozen and how many were spent in training and on missions? Definitely not as many as Steve spent frozen. Bucky is 106, and the actor is 38, but looks younger than that. So even if Bucky spent 40 years total on ice of those 50, if there was no delayed aging from the serum, he should be played by an actor who looks 60-65 years old. Maybe instead of the freezing preventing the serum from halting aging, it did the opposite. Maybe Bucky and Steve stayed younger longer because the freezing enhanced the serum, rather than inhibited it.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Replying to you and the others who quoted me or mentioned this, I would have to go back and look at the official MCU stuff, but he was obviously active in all decades since the 40's. The question is how active, or how long he was allowed out to do his crimes? From what I can see, yes, he was cryogenically frozen, but only in between all the assassination missions he was given. So the real question is how many of those was he sent on? How many of the 50 years he was a Hydra assassin were spent frozen and how many were spent in training and on missions? Definitely not as many as Steve spent frozen. Bucky is 106, and the actor is 38, but looks younger than that. So even if Bucky spent 40 years total on ice of those 50, if there was no delayed aging from the serum, he should be played by an actor who looks 60-65 years old. Maybe instead of the freezing preventing the serum from halting aging, it did the opposite. Maybe Bucky and Steve stayed younger longer because the freezing enhanced the serum, rather than inhibited it.



I'd guess he wasn't active all that often. Aside from the fact that Hydra as a whole was in hiding all those years and therefore keeping their operations low-key, the Winter Soldier couldn't have remained the largely-mythical unconfirmed ghost story that he was if he'd been active more than a handful of times in any given decade.


----------



## tomBitonti

MarkB said:


> I'd guess he wasn't active all that often. Aside from the fact that Hydra as a whole was in hiding all those years and therefore keeping their operations low-key, the Winter Soldier couldn't have remained the largely-mythical unconfirmed ghost story that he was if he'd been active more than a handful of times in any given decade.



The other matter is that Isaiah should be between 90 and 110 years old in 2020.  That is, if he were between 20 to 40 in 1950.  Plus, he may have had rough treatment for decades.  That would add years to his effective age.
TomB


----------



## Rabulias

In _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_, Black Widow credits over "two dozen" assassinations to the Winter Soldier "over the last 50 years." Let's say that 24 is a low number, and the actual count is closer to 100. Even if each assassination thaws Bucky out for 4 weeks (which I think might be high), that's 100 months out of the ice, which is just a little over 8 years that Bucky has aged over 50 years.


----------



## Umbran

tomBitonti said:


> The other matter is that Isaiah should be between 90 and 110 years old in 2020.



If it matters - the actor for Isaiah (Karl Lumbly) was born in 1951 - so he is approximately 20 years younger than Isaiah would be.  Actually, he's 25 years younger than Isaiah would be in the show, as the MCU is 5 years ahead of current day.


----------



## Rune

Umbran said:


> If it matters - the actor for Isaiah (Karl Lumbly) was born in 1951 - so he is approximately 20 years younger than Isaiah would be.  Actually, he's 25 years younger than Isaiah would be in the show, as the MCU is 5 years ahead of current day.



Is it? I think by now it’s only about 2.5 to 3 years ahead.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> If it matters - the actor for Isaiah (Karl Lumbly) was born in 1951 - so he is approximately 20 years younger than Isaiah would be.  Actually, he's 25 years younger than Isaiah would be in the show, as the MCU is 5 years ahead of current day.




Five years ahead in Endgame, which was three years ago, so the real world is slowly catching up. The MCU is currently 2023/2024, depending on the show/movie.


----------



## Umbran

Rune said:


> Is it? I think by now it’s only about 2.5 to 3 years ahead.






Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Five years ahead in Endgame, which was three years ago, so the real world is slowly catching up. The MCU is currently 2023/2024, depending on the show/movie.




25-ish.  Satisfied?


----------



## Blue

Maxperson said:


> View attachment 134993



The Truth.


----------



## Blue

Dire Bare said:


> They could do that . . . . I would be surprised if they did. We've got plenty of time before it becomes an issue, though!



We have a precedent, as they recast Rhodey and just kept on.  He wasn't the headliner, but it's a start.

That said, I'm hoping they don't.  Just because they can and all that.


----------



## DammitVictor

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Maybe the whole frozen in ice for 70 years thing screwed it up in his system. Plus, look at Isaiah and his age. The version given to him did not slow his aging. So far, Bucky is the only one to get a version of the serum that has truly stopped his aging.




If Isaiah is a World War II veteran, the Super Soldier serum may not have stopped his aging but it sure as hell slowed it-- Cap and Bucky are over 100 years old, and Isaiah looked to be, maybe, in his sixties.


----------



## DammitVictor

billd91 said:


> The big difference for most characters is Captain American involves a fixed point in time and in an important way. Magneto is also importantly tied to the WWII timeframe. Most everyone else has any specific reference in time downplayed. Who remembers that Black Widow was a kid at Stalingrad? Or that Ben Grimm and Reed Richards are WWII vets? Or that Charles Xavier was a Korean War vet?




It's ironic that Charles Xavier's Korean War service (along with his stepbrother's) is largely downplayed and ignored while Magneto's formative years in the Holocaust are not. They really won't be able to keep Magneto's origins fixed there for much longer-- he should already be _at least_ in his nineties, and they have already cloned and/or de-aged him at least once.

The war that forged Frank Castle has already been brought forward to Afghanistan. Flash Thompson lost his legs in Iraq.

Makes you wonder what wars they'll have fought in when our great-grandchildren are reading about them.

Also makes you wonder what's going to happen to the 2099 universe in _-- checks watch -- _another seventy-eight years.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> If Isaiah is a World War II veteran, the Super Soldier serum may not have stopped his aging but it sure as hell slowed it-- Cap and Bucky are over 100 years old, and Isaiah looked to be, maybe, in his sixties.




Just looked at the post you quoted and I realized there was a word I thought I typed, but did not. It should have said "the version given him did not slow his aging much".


----------



## Echohawk

Blue said:


> We have a precedent, as they recast Rhodey and just kept on.  He wasn't the headliner, but it's a start.



We have precedent for recasting headliners too. See: Hulk.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> 25-ish.  Satisfied?




What is 25-ish? The year? 

Endgame starts in 2018 and then time-jumps to 2023. Wandavision is in 2023. Falcon and Winter Soldier is about 6 months after the return Snap, so Spring of 2024. The school trip in Spiderman: Far From Home is in the Summer of 2024 because it is specifically said in the movie that the Snapped people "returned 8 months ago". There is nothing released yet that is later than that in the MCU timeline.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Replying to you and the others who quoted me or mentioned this, I would have to go back and look at the official MCU stuff, but he was obviously active in all decades since the 40's. The question is how active, or how long he was allowed out to do his crimes? From what I can see, yes, he was cryogenically frozen, but only in between all the assassination missions he was given. So the real question is how many of those was he sent on? How many of the 50 years he was a Hydra assassin were spent frozen and how many were spent in training and on missions? Definitely not as many as Steve spent frozen. Bucky is 106, and the actor is 38, but looks younger than that. So even if Bucky spent 40 years total on ice of those 50, if there was no delayed aging from the serum, he should be played by an actor who looks 60-65 years old. Maybe instead of the freezing preventing the serum from halting aging, it did the opposite. Maybe Bucky and Steve stayed younger longer because the freezing enhanced the serum, rather than inhibited it.




Captain America was around 40 when he went back in time to 1949 and settled down with Peggy Carter, aging up the long way from there.
That means he did 70 years on ice and then another 70 years ‘normal’ aging - so he’s lived for 180 years, 70 years longer than Bucky.

Isaiah was active during the Korean War which was 68 years ago, he then aged up normally (no ice) from there. If he was in his 30ish in 1951 he’s be in his 80 - 90’s now, so even if he does look old it does seem that the serum has worked to keep him strong and healthy


----------



## MarkB

Some interesting worldbuilding in this episode.


----------



## Staffan

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> It's ironic that Charles Xavier's Korean War service (along with his stepbrother's) is largely downplayed and ignored while Magneto's formative years in the Holocaust are not. They really won't be able to keep Magneto's origins fixed there for much longer-- he should already be _at least_ in his nineties, and they have already cloned and/or de-aged him at least once.



These days they have miracle medicines on Krakoa plus a resurrection system that can reset people's age, so I think they're good. One of Krakoa's main exports is a drug that can take 5 years off a human's age, so who knows what sort of good stuff they're keeping to themselves?

Charles has also been cloned twice. The first was at the end of the Brood saga back in the 80s, and the second is a little more complicated. A few years back, when Cyclops had the Phoenix Force, Scott killed Charles. Some time later, Charles' mind returned in Fantomex's body, but then that body got killed at the start of the Dawn of X comics. At that point, they cloned Charles' original body and re-inserted his mind into that, so now he's back in his own youthful body.

Also, Charles' service in the Korean War isn't a core element of his character, the way Magneto's experiences in Auschwitz are. The temple where Cain became the Juggernaut and Charles lost the use of his legs could be anywhere — the Korean war was just the excuse for putting Charles and Cain on the scene, not important in itself.

Magneto's a little weirder, because as you say he got reset to early adulthood (let's call it 20 for good measure) at some point. In the comics, this was in the 70s, but on account of sliding timescale it could really have been in the 80s or 90s as well. So assume he's 15-20 at the end of WW2, which would make him about 65-70 in the 90s (old, but not so old that he can't be active), at which point he gets reset back to 20. That'd make him biologically about 50 now. If you put his reboot in the 80s instead, now he's pushing 60.

But age has always been a really weird thing in Marvel. The worst example is Franklin Richards, who was born in the 60s, canonically 5 at the time of Onslaught (mid-90s), and 8 from at least 2004 to 2014. Now he's been aged up to a teen, though.


----------



## Marc_C

Umbran said:


> Somehow I missed this, and I'd like to comment...
> 
> Modern racism uses _exactly what you are saying_ as an excuse to deny it exists!  The show is demonstrating to the audience how people who don't actually say or directly indicate, "I dislike you for the color of your skin," still are part of a cultural system that keeps people of color at a disadvantage.
> 
> The actual point is that the banker can argue to himself that there was nothing wrong with what happened!



Nothing so obvious of course. Thanks for the mansplaining.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> What is 25-ish? The year?




The difference between the actor's age, and what we'd expect the character's apparent age to be.


----------



## Umbran

Staffan said:


> But age has always been a really weird thing in Marvel. The worst example is Franklin Richards, who was born in the 60s, canonically 5 at the time of Onslaught (mid-90s), and 8 from at least 2004 to 2014. Now he's been aged up to a teen, though.




There's also the Kitty Pryde/Rogue issue.  Nominally, the two come into comics near the same tiem, and the same age - their mid-teens.  However, very shortly Rogue is 21+, while Kitty remains 14 for a decade and more.


----------



## Umbran

Marc_C said:


> Nothing so obvious of course. Thanks for the mansplaining.




And thank you for your dismissiveness.  It'll help others to know.


----------



## hopeless

And they haven't introduced the Mutants yet!
So lets assume Magneto hails from Yugoslavia prior to its collapse in 1995 and make it more about that period instead?


----------



## billd91

hopeless said:


> And they haven't introduced the Mutants yet!
> So lets assume Magneto hails from Yugoslavia prior to its collapse in 1995 and make it more about that period instead?



Because that's no where *near* as compelling as him being a survivor of the Holocaust, certainly not in formulating his worries about how humanity will treat mutants if he doesn't prevent it (in his own twisted way). Making Magneto a Holocaust survivor firmly put him in a very interesting narrative space. When he debuted, he was just some megalomaniac for mutantkind without any real insight into why. First the introduction of his lost wife Magda and then defining him as a Holocaust survivor really (and ironically) humanized him. His identity as a comic book villain took on a lot more depth. 
I'm not sure the traumatic breakup of Yugoslavia carries the same weight. Balkan instability is working for Wanda, but Magneto would kind of suggest a higher order of magnitude.


----------



## Umbran

hopeless said:


> And they haven't introduced the Mutants yet!
> So lets assume Magneto hails from Yugoslavia prior to its collapse in 1995 and make it more about that period instead?




That's one possibility, if separating him from the Holocaust is not deemed too disrespectful.

Or, you make him a kid in the 1970s... in Cambodia1.  That'd make him middle-aged now, which works for the character, and also diversifies things a bit.



1. For those not aware, the Cambodian genocide of the 1970s claimed between 1.3 and 3 million lives. Cambodian genocide - Wikipedia


----------



## Nikosandros

I got a cyberpunk vibe from the visuals and the glimpses of society in Madripoor in today's episode. Hpw is it normally represented in the comics?


----------



## hopeless

From Wolverine's perspective mostly from what I recall


----------



## MarkB

Nikosandros said:


> I got a cyberpunk vibe from the visuals and the glimpses of society in Madripoor in today's episode.



Same here. It was like stepping into Night City. Very similar in both vibe and visuals.


----------



## Staffan

Umbran said:


> There's also the Kitty Pryde/Rogue issue.  Nominally, the two come into comics near the same tiem, and the same age - their mid-teens.  However, very shortly Rogue is 21+, while Kitty remains 14 for a decade and more.



I was always under the impression that Rogue was a little older than Kitty. Kitty was very specifically introduced as being 13 back in the Dark Phoenix saga, and got to age up (slowly) over the years, with one birthday being celebrated in space during the Brood saga and another while she was in the UK as part of Excalibur (well, the rest of Excalibur was off dimension-hopping at the time). Then things got confused when Warren Ellis took over Excalibur in the 90s and Kitty is apparently old enough to drink and snog Pete Wisdom, who's a proper adult.

Rogue, on the other hand, was consistently portrayed as a young adult. There's no indication in her original appearance fighting the Avengers alongside the Brotherhood that she's considered a child, nor when she and Mystique fight the X-Men some time later. When she's on the bus heading to Westchester to seek Xavier's help the caption describes her as a "young woman". So by the time she joins up, she's probably about 18-19 or so – and this is post-Brood and pre-Excalibur, so Kitty is 14 at the time.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> If Isaiah is a World War II veteran, the Super Soldier serum may not have stopped his aging but it sure as hell slowed it-- Cap and Bucky are over 100 years old, and Isaiah looked to be, maybe, in his sixties.



I don't know how many very active older folks you interact with, but I work with 60+ mechanics every day, and that guy is a jacked 70 year old, at least.


Echohawk said:


> We have precedent for recasting headliners too. See: Hulk.



Well, recasting as you move a property from one studio to another is a different sort of thing. But recasting isn't the biggest problem, it's the idea of taking Steve's ending away without a really, _really_ good story for it.


trappedslider said:


> View attachment 135023



Huh. Put some bright colors on that jacket....I'm calling it, Walker is a Hydra agent. 

Because come on, they're not done with Hydra.


----------



## Umbran

Staffan said:


> I was always under the impression that Rogue was a little older than Kitty.




Rogue's powers manifest when she's a "young teen".  She kisses a boy, gets understandably freaked out, and runs away from home.  She then takes up with Mystique - the term used in the comics is "adopted".  That's not a term you normally use with an adult - so I find it hard to take her as 17+ at that point.


----------



## hopeless

The below is in case it spoils anything from the latest episode.



Spoiler



So if they had access to a variant however weaker of the Erskine Super Soldier formula why isn't there more super soldiers?
I was assuming they didn't perfect the formula until the events of the Black Widow movie where they acquire a sample of the Russian variant and combining both manage to develop the one the Flag Smashers and US Agent is using.
So far they're halfway through the series and it feels odd.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

hopeless said:


> The below is in case it spoils anything from the latest episode.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> So if they had access to a variant however weaker of the Erskine Super Soldier formula why isn't there more super soldiers?
> I was assuming they didn't perfect the formula until the events of the Black Widow movie where they acquire a sample of the Russian variant and combining both manage to develop the one the Flag Smashers and US Agent is using.
> So far they're halfway through the series and it feels odd.



Not quite. 



Spoiler



Nagel said  he was still working on perfecting it for the CIA, using Isaiah's blood, when he got Snapped. When he came back, the program was gone, so he ended up finishing his work for the Power Broker, making 20 doses, that were all stolen by the Flag Smashers. Plus, the Black Widow movie is a prequel about her origin. It is not going to be set in the current time.


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> The below is in case it spoils anything from the latest episode.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> So if they had access to a variant however weaker of the Erskine Super Soldier formula why isn't there more super soldiers?
> I was assuming they didn't perfect the formula until the events of the Black Widow movie where they acquire a sample of the Russian variant and combining both manage to develop the one the Flag Smashers and US Agent is using.
> So far they're halfway through the series and it feels odd.



They specifically answered this in the episode.


Spoiler



The doctor who was working on cracking the formula based upon Hydra's work and Isaiah's blood samples had got most of the way there - but then he got Snapped. When he came alive again five years later the project had been mothballed. He managed to get hired by the Power Broker to complete his work, and had prepared twenty doses of the formula.

Then Karli and her Flag Smashers stole all 20 doses. They've used some of them to enhance themselves, but still have some in hand.


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> Rogue's powers manifest when she's a "young teen".  She kisses a boy, gets understandably freaked out, and runs away from home.  She then takes up with Mystique - the term used in the comics is "adopted".  That's not a term you normally use with an adult - so I find it hard to take her as 17+ at that point.



Assuming that Rogue was say 14 or 15 when she has her first kiss, she ran away and then spent time with the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, if we assume that was maybe 4 years she would be 18 or 19 when she seeks help from Dr X.


----------



## billd91

Umbran said:


> Rogue's powers manifest when she's a "young teen".  She kisses a boy, gets understandably freaked out, and runs away from home.  She then takes up with Mystique - the term used in the comics is "adopted".  That's not a term you normally use with an adult - so I find it hard to take her as 17+ at that point.



Sure you do if you're talking about their history, particularly if the family is blended/found rather than by birth - as you get with Rogue and Mystique. Before Rogue joins the X-Men, she's in a story as an employee infiltrating the Pentagon. Even if she's in a secretarial pool/intern, that's still 18-19 at least. I can't think of a single story since Rogue debuts where she gives off any impression of being a minor - other than something explicitly flashback.


----------



## hopeless

The Black Widow movie I believe is set between Civil War and Infinity War.


Spoiler



If and I do mean IF Ross secures that sample of the Russian Super Soldier Serum it would still need to be mentioned for it to be part of this series despite the above reply explaining its developer was snapped and upon his return managed to develop his version of the super soldier serum.
Regardless of the actual source does this mean he tested his serum on the Flag Smashers?
It sounds odd for them to steal his shipment unless they knew what it was as they had been guinea pigs?



Is that a possible explanation for the events in the series so far?


----------



## Staffan

Umbran said:


> Rogue's powers manifest when she's a "young teen".  She kisses a boy, gets understandably freaked out, and runs away from home.  She then takes up with Mystique - the term used in the comics is "adopted".  That's not a term you normally use with an adult - so I find it hard to take her as 17+ at that point.



Sure, but that's some time before she debuts as a super-villain. At that point, Mystique has trained her and they have developed a familial relationship. Mystique thinks of Rogue as her daughter, not just another Brotherhood member – there are multiple occasions where Mystique risks things in order to protect Rogue, even after Rogue left. That's the kind of thing that takes an unspecified amount of time. After that, Rogue's first on-page appearance is perma-draining Carol Danvers' powers and then fighting the Avengers, and she's definitely not 15 in that comic. This is the first picture of her from 1981:





And this is her fighting the X-Men in 1982:





I did find a reference to her being 17 when she sought help from Professor X (which was in 1983), but I don't know how canonical that is. At that point she's definitely not younger than that, at least.


----------



## Stalker0

Hey, remember when this thread was about the tv show Falcon and the Winter Soldier? 

To get back OT, I like Zemo in the 3rd episode. Similar to Kill Monger, he's not right....but he's kind of right. There are some great moments when he talks about what happens to Sokovia and looks Falcon and Bucky in the eye, effectively calling them out for not doing anything to clean up their mess. And....it appears that he's right, as they kind of silently take the beratement.

I will say though that we are apparently half way through this series....and it really doesn't feel like we have even gotten started (especially for the entire new thread that throw down at the very end of the episode!). It feels like there is a lot left to cover. I mean sure you can clean things up quickly, but I'm worried that's going to be underwhelming. If GoT final season taught us anything....take your freakin time!


----------



## Rabulias

And who is Sharon working for? Is she really not "on the run" and deep undercover instead? Or is she working for the Power Broker? Or a third party? Maybe she _is _the Power Broker?


----------



## Umbran

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> If Isaiah is a World War II veteran..




I don't think he is.  He said he fought in Korea.


----------



## Umbran

hopeless said:


> The Black Widow movie I believe is set between Civil War and Infinity War.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> If and I do mean IF Ross secures that sample of the Russian Super Soldier Serum it would still need to be mentioned for it to be part of this series despite the above reply explaining its developer was snapped and upon his return managed to develop his version of the super soldier serum.
> Regardless of the actual source does this mean he tested his serum on the Flag Smashers?
> It sounds odd for them to steal his shipment unless they knew what it was as they had been guinea pigs?
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a possible explanation for the events in the series so far?




So, Ross and the Russian stuff is not needed to explain anything in this series.  

It is just: Nagel makes serum.  He tests it, probably on Karli Morganthau - in Ep 3 she says she'd been in Madripoor after the Snap.  She realizes with that power, she can make a difference.  She gets some people together, steals Nagel's 20 doses.  A few of them take it, and become the core of the Flag Smashers.  The shipment we see, and have the fight around last episode, wasn't Nagel's.  It was actually medical supplies for camps.



Rabulias said:


> And who is Sharon working for? Is she really not "on the run" and deep undercover instead? Or is she working for the Power Broker? Or a third party? Maybe she _is _the Power Broker?




While it is possible they are doing something wild like that with Sharon, it is also just as likely that she's done as she says - she makes a lot of funds on the darker side of the art trade.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> I don't think he is.  He said he fought in Korea.




Yep, it is only a small forward jump in years from the comics version to the MCU version. I think it mainly means the secret experiments done to him and 300 other black men happened between WWII and the Korean War, instead of during WWII. I was reading the details on the comic book arc that Isaiah had when his books were published in the early 2000's, and wow, were they dark. Not only did almost none of the other soldiers survive, but the US government had everyone at the army camp, where the 300 came from, executed, so that there was no one left who could talk about it. For the MCU that is probably different if the experiments happened during peacetime, since there would not be a war to blame all the deaths on. Though the Korean War did start in 1950, so there is a gap before Isaiah was sent into Korea some time during 1951 to find and stop the Winter Soldier.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yep, it is only a small forward jump in years from the comics version to the MCU version. I think it mainly means the secret experiments done to him and 300 other black men happened between WWII and the Korean War, instead of during WWII. I was reading the details on the comic book arc that Isaiah had when his books were published in the early 2000's, and wow, were they dark.




Yeah, those comics are really dark, ugly stuff.  In the MCU, at least, they can fall back on, "HYDRA did it!"


----------



## DammitVictor

Umbran said:


> I don't think he is.  He said he fought in Korea.




I was under the impression he was the _first_, the prototype before Steve. But that may have been from the comics.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> I was under the impression he was the _first_, the prototype before Steve. But that may have been from the comics.




No, I think in the comics, Steve is 1940 and Isaiah is 1942 or 1943. The experiment on the black soldiers was trying to recreate the serum used on Steve.


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yep, it is only a small forward jump in years from the comics version to the MCU version. I think it mainly means the secret experiments done to him and 300 other black men happened between WWII and the Korean War, instead of during WWII. I was reading the details on the comic book arc that Isaiah had when his books were published in the early 2000's, and wow, were they dark. Not only did almost none of the other soldiers survive, but the US government had everyone at the army camp, where the 300 came from, executed, so that there was no one left who could talk about it. For the MCU that is probably different if the experiments happened during peacetime, since there would not be a war to blame all the deaths on. Though the Korean War did start in 1950, so there is a gap before Isaiah was sent into Korea some time during 1951 to find and stop the Winter Soldier.



The Tuskagee Syphilis study that Isaiah Bradleys story was based on started in 1932 and continued until 1972, so no occuring in peacetime had very little bearing on the ethics of those involved.  Somehow the Education Psychology degree I did had a section of a number of monstrously dodgy studies in health and psychology conducted in the early 20th century which now form part of modern development theory., its really quite eye opening.

I like how Marvel TV has decided to embrace that critical pedagogy as reflected in the conversation on Zemos plane questioning the whole concept of Hero and the role of the Avengers in the world. Such a intellectual deep conversation is more notable when couched inside the 'action adventure' genre expectations. The writers handled that really quite masterfully while remaining true to the comic book nature of the story and its 'unlikely' team-up and cameos.

My only real complaint about the episode was the lack of SE Asian cast in the Madripoor scenes, its called out as an Island in the Indonesian Archipelago but apparently its entirely inhabited by white gangsters and black bar staff. It might not have been as much of an issue if race wasnt an important theme in the show...


----------



## Paul Farquhar

From what I hear the Black Widow movie is set in the 1980s. Whatever, a hypothetical Russian supersoldier serum is unconnected to these events.

1930s: Erskine experiments on Red Skull. Zola assists?
1943: Erskine experiments on Steve Rogers. Erskine is killed and most of the original serum destroyed.
1944: Zola experiments on Bucky, using his knowledge of Erskine's experiments on Red Skull.
1950s: CIA and Zola (under Operation Paperclip) experiment on black American servicemen using Erskine's notes and samples of Rogers' blood. Isaiah is the only success?
1960s-blip: CIA continue to experiment on Isaiah. Towards the end of this period Nagel is on the edge of success.
blip-: Nagel completes his serum for the Power Broker, tests it on Karli. Karli steals the existing doses. Nagel is working on creating more doses when he is shot by Zemo and his lab destroyed.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> While it is possible they are doing something wild like that with Sharon, it is also just as likely that she's done as she says - she makes a lot of funds on the darker side of the art trade.



The last scene, where Sharon gets into a car with a dark-haired woman, very heavily implies she is working for someone, and "on the run" was just a cover story.

My guess would be either the CIA or British Intelligence. Or she is a skrull.


----------



## DeviousQuail

The pacing in episode 3 felt off compared to the first two. It was like they had one-and-a-half or two episodes worth of material and forced it into one. It certainly had it's cool and fun moments but overall I'd say it was the weakest so far (an admittedly small sample). Also, I'm having a hard time sympathizing with the flag smashers because it's all tell with very little show. Maybe if we saw these camps or footage of the displaced protesting. Anything to give us a better idea of how bad things are. Between this show, wandavision, and far from home things look pretty great considering how awful and confusing the last 6-8 months should have been. 

The good stuff:
-Nice of you to join the party Sharon. Now if only we knew whose side you're on.
-Zemo does not pull his punches when conversing with F/WS.
-Madripoor was awesome. Will it replace Sokovia as the next big fictional place for Bad Things to happen in? 
-A little bit more about the GRC and blip but not much.
-Wakanda doesn't forget and they sure don't seem interested in forgiving.


----------



## Stalker0

DeviousQuail said:


> Anything to give us a better idea of how bad things are. Between this show, wandavision, and far from home things look pretty great considering how awful and confusing the last 6-8 months should have been.



Amen, the apocalypse happens and its like everything is hunky dorey again, other than the occasional terriorist threat to stop, basic services all seem completely intact. To put it in context, the Soviet Union lost 15%-20% of its population during WWII....and that was an insane amount of casualties, much higher than other countries.

But that is just an ok couple of years compared to losing *50%!!!!! *

Entire industries would collapse under such a loss, infrastructure begins to crumble, not to mention the mass hysteria such an event would have caused (I'm not a religious man but if I had seen that happen I would definitely think its the rapture).


----------



## MarkB

We had two somewhat re-imagined versions of characters in this episode, first Zemo and then Sharon.

I felt like Baron Zemo was slightly the more realistic. His portrayal in Civil War never hinted at any significant degree of wealth, nor any particularly strong expertise on Hydra aside from his general espionage background having given him sufficient context to better understand the information on them that Black Widow had dumped to the internet. But this version of him doesn't straight-up contradict anything in the movie, and it does make him a more enjoyable character in the antihero role.

Sharon, on the other hand, I find harder to believe ending up as a cynical criminal, for one reason. While I can buy that Sam didn't get around to calling her at any time since Civil War, no way do I buy that Steve Rogers left her to take the fall. He respected her as a colleague, cared for her as a relative of Peggy Carter, and there was the beginning of a romance between them. There's just no way he'd have gotten all his superpowered allies from those events back to safety and freedom without doing his utmost to do the same for her.

That said, if we assume that those efforts all failed, this is an interesting development for the character. And yes, I'd bet that either she is the Power Broker, or she's on track to take over that role by the end of the series.


----------



## trappedslider

They did they thing! lol

I see Walker has a bit of a possible anger issue and we're at the half way point.


----------



## Umbran

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> I was under the impression he was the _first_, the prototype before Steve. But that may have been from the comics.




No.  If nothing else, while Marvel and Disney are willing to confront racism, they are not willing to tarnish Captain America himself in that way.  Isaiah is the result of trying to re-create Cap.



Paul Farquhar said:


> From what I hear the Black Widow movie is set in the 1980s.




That would mean Natasha Romanov, an adult in the movie, would now be in her 60s.  The Black Widow movie is set between Civil War and Infinity War.



Paul Farquhar said:


> 1930s: Erskine experiments on Red Skull. Zola assists?
> 1943: Erskine experiments on Steve Rogers. Erskine is killed and most of the original serum destroyed.
> 1944: Zola experiments on Bucky, using his knowledge of Erskine's experiments on Red Skull.
> 1950s: CIA and Zola (under Operation Paperclip) experiment on black American servicemen using Erskine's notes and samples of Rogers' blood. Isaiah is the only success?




Captain America is created in 1942/43.

Zola got captured by Cap and the Howling Commandos, but Bucky falls from the train in that same operation.  Zola is in Allied hands from that point forward, while the Russians have Bucky.  

Zola probably wouldn't have a chance to be involved until much later, if at all, after the creation of SHIELD, and its infiltration by HYRDA.  And even then, it probably wasn't Zola personally experimenting on Bucky - HYDRA infiltrated SHIELD, but I doubt that went so far as an American asset (Zola) actually going to work in Russia.  Even in the modern day, HYDRA had to work at keeping itself secret.  That would have been rather blatant.

Isaiah says he was imprisoned for 30 years.  That's 50s to 80s, or 60s to 90s.  The Blip is 2010s.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> That would mean Natasha Romanov, an adult in the movie, would now be in her 60s.  The Black Widow movie is set between Civil War and Infinity War./



Maybe she is in her 60s, but looks younger because of the Russian supersoldier serum (or because she is a skrull). I'm pretty sure the Black Widow movie at least features flashbacks to the 80s.


Umbran said:


> Captain America is created in 1942/43.



Just rewatched the movie. It's 43.


Umbran said:


> Zola got captured by Cap and the Howling Commandos, but Bucky falls from the train in that same operation.  Zola is in Allied hands from that point forward, while the Russians have Bucky.
> 
> Zola probably wouldn't have a chance to be involved until much later, if at all, after the creation of SHIELD, and its infiltration by HYRDA.  And even then, it probably wasn't Zola personally experimenting on Bucky - HYDRA infiltrated SHIELD, but I doubt that went so far as an American asset (Zola) actually going to work in Russia.  Even in the modern day, HYDRA had to work at keeping itself secret.  That would have been rather blatant.



Zola was Americanised under (real life) Operation Paperclip (TWS), which would mean he was working for the American government from 1946 onwards. That's before the foundation of SHIELD.
Also in TWS, Rogers concludes that Zola had been experimenting on Bucky when he rescued him, and that is what enabled him to survive the fall. Bucky has flashbacks that seem to imply Zola was involved _after_ he became the Winter Soldier, although this could just be his addled memories. Zola died in the 1970s.


Umbran said:


> Isaiah says he was imprisoned for 30 years.  That's 50s to 80s, or 60s to 90s.  The Blip is 2010s.



Sure, but they continued to experiment on his blood after the freed him. Nagel says as much.


----------



## Stalker0

Paul Farquhar said:


> Maybe she is in her 60s, but looks younger because of the Russian supersoldier serum (or because she is a skrull). I'm pretty sure the Black Widow movie at least features flashbacks to the 80s.



The MCU version of Natasha has never implied she had super solider serum like in some versions of the comics, just extreme training.

 That said her background is still a mystery, so maybe they will go that route in her movie


----------



## Rabulias

Also, after seeing Zemo in this episode, it came to mind that there is an opportunity to do a Thunderbolts story during the Blip. Unfortunately there is not enough of a catalog of established villains still alive in the MCU to use, but the situation with the missing heroes seems perfect. It might be a harder sell with MCU Zemo's stance on superheroes (they could use someone else, I suppose), but what better way to undermine public trust in heroes than to gather a group of "heroes" who then betray everything they are supposed to stand for? And, as in the comics, Zemo's plan goes awry when some of the villains truly want to reform. A TV series might be a better format than a film for this.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Tonguez said:


> My only real complaint about the episode was the lack of SE Asian cast in the Madripoor scenes, its called out as an Island in the Indonesian Archipelago but apparently its entirely inhabited by white gangsters and black bar staff. It might not have been as much of an issue if race wasnt an important theme in the show...



That bit bothered me too. And my family. I paused when they mentioned Madripoor and explained to my wife and kids what Madripoor was - then we kept going and my daughter said right away, "Why are they all white, then?" The way _I_ imagine Madripoor anyway, it should be at least 80% SE Asians. I don't have a problem with an Aussie crime boss, but the club-goers and streets should have been both more, and less diverse at the same time.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

FitzTheRuke said:


> That bit bothered me too. And my family. I paused when they mentioned Madripoor and explained to my wife and kids what Madripoor was - then we kept going and my daughter said right away, "Why are they all white, then?" The way _I_ imagine Madripoor anyway, it should be at least 80% SE Asians. I don't have a problem with an Aussie crime boss, but the club-goers and streets should have been both more, and less diverse at the same time.




All the SE-Asian people are in Hightown controlling everything? They would have been the people already there before the refugees from the return Snap started flooding the island. And we only saw a small part of Lowtown, a part controlled by non-Asians. Do you go to NYC and go into Chinatown or Harlem and wonder where the white folks are? Or into the parts controlled by the Mob and wonder why there are no non-white folks? Giant cities self-segregate, so could be just another subtle look at real-world race issues as represented in the show. Criminal elements can be also very insular and tend to not mix races, so even a mix of black and white people could be seen as odd. Also, we do not know if the five years of missing people pushed groups closer together or pulled them further apart.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> Maybe she is in her 60s, but looks younger because of the Russian supersoldier serum




That she was so enhanced is, to my understanding, speculation.  I think her movie does have someone enhanced (Red Guardian, played by David Harbour), but I don't believe we have evidence she is.



Paul Farquhar said:


> (or because she is a skrull). I'm pretty sure the Black Widow movie at least features flashbacks to the 80s.




When she's a _child_ being raised to be an assassin, perhaps.  



Paul Farquhar said:


> Also in TWS, Rogers concludes that Zola had been experimenting on Bucky when he rescued him, and that is what enabled him to survive the fall.




Rogers wasn't exactly a trained scientist. And Bucky showed no other signs of enhancement at that time - 'cuz, really, if he was enhanced, he wouldn't have fallen like that.  So, I took that to be his speculation, not a timeline truth.



Paul Farquhar said:


> Sure, but they continued to experiment on his blood after the freed him. Nagel says as much.




Sure.  Your wording just implied Isaiah had been captive for rather longer.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> All the SE-Asian people are in Hightown controlling everything? They would have been the people already there before the refugees from the return Snap started flooding the island. And we only saw a small part of Lowtown, a part controlled by non-Asians.




Sure, that's possible, I guess. Still strange.



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Do you go to NYC and go into Chinatown or Harlem and wonder where the white folks are? Or into the parts controlled by the Mob and wonder why there are no non-white folks?



What a strange thing to ask someone. I find this question both dumb, and a little offensive, and also to not have anything to do with the show (or my comments about the show) at all. Was there some kind of big sign that said "Yankee-town" that I missed when they said they were going to Madripoor?



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Giant cities self-segregate, so could be just another subtle look at real-world race issues as represented in the show. Criminal elements can be also very insular and tend to not mix races, so even a mix of black and white people could be seen as odd. Also, we do not know if the five years of missing people pushed groups closer together or pulled them further apart.



They segregate _a little_. I LIVE in a PacRim city with a Chinatown, a Japantown, a Little Italy, a Little India, etc etc. You still find people of every "race" in all of those places. In PARTICULAR at a nightclub. (And again, there was nothing to suggest that Lowtown Madripoor is some kind of Yankeetown, other than that it looked like it was).

Anyway, it was just an observation - where Madripoor is situated in the _world_ there ought to be an majority of SE Asians there. It was strange to not really see... any? Or nearly none? It was unexpected. It doesn't need to be a bigger deal than that.


----------



## Morrus

I'm not enjoying this show nearly as much as Wandvision. It's fine -- I'm not hating it or anything, and I'll watch to the end -- but it's a bit too formulaic for me. I find it slightly boring. I think Loki will be more to my taste.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> I'm not enjoying this show nearly as much as Wandvision. It's fine -- I'm not hating it or anything, and I'll watch to the end -- but it's a bit too formulaic for me. I think Loki will be more to my taste.



I didn't expect to like it as much as WandaVision when I saw the trailer (After WV it seemed a bit to DudeBro masculine and RahRah US militant for my taste) but I _loved_ episode 1. 

...Now I'm starting to cool on it, so I know what you mean. Maybe it'll surprise when it gets to its point. I AM looking forward to Loki, though!


----------



## Tonguez

FitzTheRuke said:


> That bit bothered me too. And my family. I paused when they mentioned Madripoor and explained to my wife and kids what Madripoor was - then we kept going and my daughter said right away, "Why are they all white, then?" The way _I_ imagine Madripoor anyway, it should be at least 80% SE Asians. I don't have a problem with an Aussie crime boss, but the club-goers and streets should have been both more, and less diverse at the same time.



I would have been happy with just one  just a wee nod, but the MCU still seems to have a problem with Asian representation.


Rabulias said:


> Also, after seeing Zemo in this episode, it came to mind that there is an opportunity to do a Thunderbolts story during the Blip. Unfortunately there is not enough of a catalog of established villains still alive in the MCU to use, but the situation with the missing heroes seems perfect. It might be a harder sell with MCU Zemo's stance on superheroes (they could use someone else, I suppose), but what better way to undermine public trust in heroes than to gather a group of "heroes" who then betray everything they are supposed to stand for? And, as in the comics, Zemo's plan goes awry when some of the villains truly want to reform. A TV series might be a better format than a film for this.




With just MCU movie villains they could have a Thunderbolts comprised of Zemo, Abomination, Batroc, Vulture, Scorpion, Shocker, possibly Ghost (?). Justin Hammer is still around and Black Widow was in the Thunderbolts
dip into Marvel TV to get Bullseye and Bushmaster (hell bring DD and Luke Cage in for the ride too)

Also the Leader is still out there technically


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Tonguez said:


> I would have been happy with just one  just a wee nod, but the MCU still seems to have a problem with Asian representation.




Well, the bad guys chasing them and trying to kill them were not Asians either, so they did not go that way, at least. Still, maybe that particular small part of Madripoor, just happened to be non-Asian. For X-men fans, it was also very non-Mutant. But at least they intentionally showed the Princess Bar, which is co-owned by Wolverine in the comics. Some of the filming on this was done after the pandemic started, so I am sure they were a lot more limited than usual for extras, and that could make a difference in this episode, if it was filmed after that. Sure, that just sounds like an excuse, but it could still be valid, because I highly doubt they would intentionally exclude a major group like that. Plus, did it all go by too quickly for me to see them, or were there no Hispanics represented in the episode either?

Okay, I found this about the filming process:



> Filming for _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier_ began in October 2019 in Atlanta. The limited series was filmed in various locations around the city through December 2019. In January 2020 filming was expected to take place in Puerto Rico for two weeks, but production on the island was suspended due to a series of earthquakes there. _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier_ also shut down in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic. The cast and crew were actually in Prague at the height of COVID-19.




I would guess the club scene and Madripoor street scenes were done in Atlanta, before covid changed everything, because those scenes were too packed with people for the reality of post-covid filming.


----------



## hopeless

Just a thought 



Spoiler



What if the Sharon Carter they met isn't Sharon Carter?
That she's actually the Black Widow replacement using the same disguise gear Nat used in Winter Soldier near the end?
That would explain her presence there, why she helped them and was probably working for Ross.
Is that a possible explanation for what we've seen?


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Well, the bad guys chasing them and trying to kill them were not Asians either, so they did not go that way, at least. Still, maybe that particular small part of Madripoor, just happened to be non-Asian. For X-men fans, it was also very non-Mutant. But at least they intentionally showed the Princess Bar, which is co-owned by Wolverine in the comics. Some of the filming on this was done after the pandemic started, so I am sure they were a lot more limited than usual for extras, and that could make a difference in this episode, if it was filmed after that. Sure, that just sounds like an excuse, but it could still be valid, because I highly doubt they would intentionally exclude a major group like that. Plus, did it all go by too quickly for me to see them, or were there no Hispanics represented in the episode either?
> 
> Okay, I found this about the filming process:
> 
> I would guess the club scene and Madripoor street scenes were done in Atlanta, before covid changed everything, because those scenes were too packed with people for the reality of post-covid filming.




there are 2000 Indonesians in Atlanta and something like 30000 'Asians and PI' so even with COVID a casting call for asian extras was easy enough.  My first thought was actually of Wes Studi portrayal of Sagat in the Street Fighter movie (at least he was brown I suppose).
If they had shown even just one prominent SE Asian character, I would have shrugged it off and accepted Madripoor is a pirate enclave, with lots of foreign residents.

Also I'm not sure what your Hispanic comment has to do with anything, there are no 'Hispanics' in Indonesia


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Tonguez said:


> Also I'm not sure what your Hispanic comment has to do with anything, there are no 'Hispanics' in Indonesia




Madripoor is a giant melting-pot type city, as some people have said, and there would have been Hispanics out on the streets, and especially in a club scene, if we are being inclusive, as people want to be. I did have to look at the credits and one of the club people who had a speaking part is Hispanic, at least.


----------



## Stalker0

I'm always a fan of the "throw away lampshade", its not always perfect but it can get the job done.

For example, if Zemo had mentioned that high town was filled with the wealthy nationals, and lowtown was the poor foreigners....ok it explains all the whiteness. A single line, doesn't even have to take screen time, it can just be a voiceover as you are showing the scenery.


----------



## hopeless

Or perhaps the locals stayed away as they were aware the place was going to be raided?


Spoiler



Well the person they came to meet was shot after all and it could be word filtered down and only those unaware were present thinking its odd but the newcomers didn't notice?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

hopeless said:


> Or perhaps the locals stayed away as they were aware the place was going to be raided?
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Well the person they came to meet was shot after all and it could be word filtered down and only those unaware were present thinking its odd but the newcomers didn't notice?




Maybe. The assassination and the phone alert of a bounty on their heads happened way too quickly. Someone set that up. And that person who snuck out of the club with the hoodie pulled over her head was probably Sharon. And then Sharon was in just the right part of town to shoot those two bounty hunters and save them. Too fishy for me. She is way more involved than she claims.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Tonguez said:


> Also I'm not sure what your Hispanic comment has to do with anything, there are no 'Hispanics' in Indonesia



Of course there are, though the other poster indeed seems to have missed the point.


----------



## Umbran

hopeless said:


> Just a thought
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> What if the Sharon Carter they met isn't Sharon Carter?
> That she's actually the Black Widow replacement using the same disguise gear Nat used in Winter Soldier near the end?
> That would explain her presence there, why she helped them and was probably working for Ross.
> Is that a possible explanation for what we've seen?




So, what if... everyone who came back in The Blip is actually a Dire Wraith!?!  

Is it _possible_?  Sure.  Virtually anything is possible.  Is there any actual reason to think that's what is happening, though?  I don't know of any.


----------



## Umbran

hopeless said:


> Or perhaps the locals stayed away as they were aware the place was going to be raided?




Explanations that are not present in the text that we have to speculate into being are not suitable excuse for the casting failure. 

The simplest explanation is simply that nobody _thought_ about it.  The irony that they make the point about systemic racism in one episode, and then do it in the next, is pretty darned thick.


----------



## DammitVictor

Umbran said:


> No.  If nothing else, while Marvel and Disney are willing to confront racism, they are not willing to tarnish Captain America himself in that way.  Isaiah is the result of trying to re-create Cap.




They _were_ not, perhaps, back when _Truth: Red, White and Black_ was published. Clearly that is no longer the case.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> They _were_ not, perhaps, back when _Truth: Red, White and Black_ was published. Clearly that is no longer the case.



No, it still seems to be the case. Isaiah isn’t the prototype for Steve, and they’ve done nothing else that would tarnish him as a character.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> So, what if... everyone who came back in The Blip is actually a Dire Wraith!?!



Pure garbage, everyone knows that the people who came back are all actually Skrulls


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> Rogers wasn't exactly a trained scientist. And Bucky showed no other signs of enhancement at that time - 'cuz, really, if he was enhanced, he wouldn't have fallen like that.  So, I took that to be his speculation, not a timeline truth.



Bucky wouldn't have survived the fall if he _wasn't _enhanced. Rogers is no idiot, and had been fighting along side Bucky for a couple of months. He may well have already noticed changes.

Given that Zola also features prominently in Bucky's flashbacks, I'm pretty certain authorial intent is that Zola was involved in the creation of The Winter Soldier.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

To the ones here asking about Asian extras in the scenes in Madripoor, I watched it a 2nd time today and definitely saw some in the crowds. Some were borderline, as in, are they black or Indonesian, since they were on and off screen so quickly, and because Indonesians do look different than Chinese or Japanese. A couple of the extras may also be from India. I did not freeze frame anything to make sure. So people can put their anti-Disney pichforks away again.


----------



## Blue

Morrus said:


> I'm not enjoying this show nearly as much as Wandvision. It's fine -- I'm not hating it or anything, and I'll watch to the end -- but it's a bit too formulaic for me. I find it slightly boring. I think Loki will be more to my taste.



I understand what you mean.  The slow burn mystery of WandaVision was so much more entrancing "what's going on" then here.  This has some Marvel(tm) quality action scenes, and we've got enough gnashing of teeth over John Walker, and even Baron Zemo - but somehow isn't as entrancing.  We're enjoying it, but not like we were with WandaVision, especially ep 3+.


----------



## MarkB

Blue said:


> I understand what you mean.  The slow burn mystery of WandaVision was so much more entrancing "what's going on" then here.  This has some Marvel(tm) quality action scenes, and we've got enough gnashing of teeth over John Walker, and even Baron Zemo - but somehow isn't as entrancing.  We're enjoying it, but not like we were with WandaVision, especially ep 3+.



The stakes are just a bit lower in this one. With WandaVision, even aside from the mystery of how/what/why, there was the question of whether we'd get Vision back and whether Wanda would come out of it intact.

Here, it's nice that Sam and Bucky are teaming up, but I'm not invested in whether they manage to get along, and I'm not even particularly invested in whether Sam winds up becoming Captain America or stays being Falcon.

They also haven't introduced anyone really compelling in the secondary cast. Darcy, Jimmy Woo, Monica were all great in WandaVision and got me immediately interested in where those characters were going, but so far nobody in this series has caught my attention in that respect.


----------



## Tonguez

Blue said:


> I understand what you mean.  The slow burn mystery of WandaVision was so much more entrancing "what's going on" then here.  This has some Marvel(tm) quality action scenes, and we've got enough gnashing of teeth over John Walker, and even Baron Zemo - but somehow isn't as entrancing.  We're enjoying it, but not like we were with WandaVision, especially ep 3+.




The two stories might both be ‘Marvel Superhero’ but they are very different genre, with Wandavision being a surreal mystery while Falcon and WS is an action adventure. 

While I’d agree that WandaVision was more intellectually compelling and lent itself to weekly speculation and theory crafting, I dont think they should be compared except on a personal impact level. I’m liking both bit for very different reasons - F&WS is fun for the globetrotting adventure and the roster of MCU cameos. 

But thats just my opinion


----------



## Stalker0

Tonguez said:


> While I’d agree that WandaVision was more intellectually compelling and lent itself to weekly speculation and theory crafting, I dont think they should be compared except on a personal impact level. I’m liking both bit for very different reasons - F&WS is fun for the globetrotting adventure and the roster of MCU cameos.



It would have been interesting if they had done a weekly format with Wandavision and put out all 6 episodes of FWS right away. As WV is the more "water cooler" like show, I do think the weekly format makes sense to keep the suspence going. For an action adventure like FWS, a more bingable format might be good.


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> They also haven't introduced anyone really compelling in the secondary cast.



Zemo is the only character I have interest in, mainly because what they have done with him so far is neat, and he's a reasonably complex villain so I'm looking forward to see what they do to him.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> It would have been interesting if they had done a weekly format with Wandavision and put out all 6 episodes of FWS right away. As WV is the more "water cooler" like show, I do think the weekly format makes sense to keep the suspence going. For an action adventure like FWS, a more bingable format might be good.



Whilst FatWS is certainly more suitable for binge watching, you can see what Disney are trying to do, by having a regular "Friday event TV" as many weeks as possible. They need to spin it out until _Loki_ and _The Bad Batch_ are ready to fill that slot.

In the long term, it seem likely that they will lean into doing more high concept stuff (I suspect Loki will fall into that category) rather than conventional action adventure TV.


----------



## cmad1977

Stalker0 said:


> It would have been interesting if they had done a weekly format with Wandavision and put out all 6 episodes of FWS right away. As WV is the more "water cooler" like show, I do think the weekly format makes sense to keep the suspence going. For an action adventure like FWS, a more bingable format might be good.




Bingeable formats don’t really drive retention the way a weekly format does. We wouldn’t even be TALKING about WS episodes if we’d all binged it. Gotta keep folks talking.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

cmad1977 said:


> Bingeable formats don’t really drive retention the way a weekly format does. We wouldn’t even be TALKING about WS episodes if we’d all binged it. Gotta keep folks talking.



Tbh, I’m glad it’s weekly, and I hope other studios do the same.


----------



## Erekose

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but does it seem likely that Sam will be put into a situation where he has to take the serum?


----------



## hopeless

Maybe not before he discovers its side effects?


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> To the ones here asking about Asian extras in the scenes in Madripoor, I watched it a 2nd time today and definitely saw some in the crowds. Some were borderline, as in, are they black or Indonesian, since they were on and off screen so quickly, and because Indonesians do look different than Chinese or Japanese. A couple of the extras may also be from India. I did not freeze frame anything to make sure. So people can put their anti-Disney pichforks away again.




Some in the background is not the majority we'd expect. 

And, when valid criticism of the show is described as pitchforks, the problem is not with the criticism.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> To the ones here asking about Asian extras in the scenes in Madripoor, I watched it a 2nd time today and definitely saw some in the crowds. Some were borderline, as in, are they black or Indonesian, since they were on and off screen so quickly, and because Indonesians do look different than Chinese or Japanese. A couple of the extras may also be from India. I did not freeze frame anything to make sure. So people can put their anti-Disney pichforks away again.



You managed to take what was a mild and reasonable criticism and turn it into something... darker. 

We simply expressed our disappointment that there were very few SE Asians on an island that is supposed to be _located in_ SE Asia! How that could possibly be an unreasonable position to take, I just don't know.


----------



## trappedslider

Is Thunderbolt Ross FALCON AND WINTER SOLDIER's Power Broker? - Nerdist
					

The Falcon and The Winter Soldier's mysterious Power Broker just might be one of the MCU's first villains, William Hurt's General "Thunderbolt" Ross.




					nerdist.com


----------



## Tonguez

trappedslider said:


> Is Thunderbolt Ross FALCON AND WINTER SOLDIER's Power Broker? - Nerdist
> 
> 
> The Falcon and The Winter Soldier's mysterious Power Broker just might be one of the MCU's first villains, William Hurt's General "Thunderbolt" Ross.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nerdist.com



Thats an interesting theory. I’ve never really thought of Ross as a villain, but his obsessiveness, abusive disregard for Banner and fixation on super soldiers does make for a compelling argument.

Unfortunately we still dont know enough about the state of the World since the blip or the true purpose of the GRC. Personally I’d expect that Ross is a leader of the GRC - it would be interesting if the GRC and the Power Broker are so intimately aligned (of course theyve already done the Hydra infiltrates SHIELD story)


----------



## DammitVictor

doctorbadwolf said:


> No, it still seems to be the case. Isaiah isn’t the prototype for Steve, and they’ve done nothing else that would tarnish him as a character.




While I'm pleased that everyone else has quickly forgotten _Secret Empire_, I never have and I never will.


----------



## Umbran

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> While I'm pleased that everyone else has quickly forgotten _Secret Empire_, I never have and I never will.




Beware the vagueness of "They".  The "They" who wrote Secret Empire is not the "They" who wrote Falcon and Winter Soldier.  The comics and TV/movie spaces are not tightly linked.


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> Personally I’d expect that Ross is a leader of the GRC - it would be interesting if the GRC and the Power Broker are so intimately aligned (of course theyve already done the Hydra infiltrates SHIELD story)




If they did this, it wouldn't have to be an "infiltrates" story.  It can be more a "beware, government can over-reach" as we have seen from Ross previously, and people like Hayward more recently.  It is a pretty standard theme.

The problem with making Ross into the Power Broker is that Ross has, to my understanding, always been a patriot (if a misguided, overzealous one).  He's not been portrayed as the sort to take his program to create superior military forces out into another country, and then _sell those powers_.  Which is not to say that it cannot be done, but to be cogent, it'd need a lot of explaining.  I don't think "the world turned upside down" is in and of itself is sufficient to the task.  We shall see.

In the comics, Power Broker is more an icon of corporate malfeasance than government, but they could do something different in the MCU.


----------



## Stalker0

cmad1977 said:


> Bingeable formats don’t really drive retention the way a weekly format does. We wouldn’t even be TALKING about WS episodes if we’d all binged it. Gotta keep folks talking.




Its true, and my guess is that as time goes on more steaming services will switch back to the weekly format. The binge shows were great for splash and to get subscribers, but the weekly format does help hold people's attention longer.

I do think the binge format might survive for "lackluster shows". The binge format can cover up for a weak show, as it doesn't have to be as engaging. A show where you have to wait a week has to hook you. hehe the binge format could be the new Friday night time slot


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> If they did this, it wouldn't have to be an "infiltrates" story.  It can be more a "beware, government can over-reach" as we have seen from Ross previously, and people like Hayward more recently.  It is a pretty standard theme.
> 
> The problem with making Ross into the Power Broker is that Ross has, to my understanding, always been a patriot (if a misguided, overzealous one).  He's not been portrayed as the sort to take his program to create superior military forces out into another country, and then _sell those powers_.  Which is not to say that it cannot be done, but to be cogent, it'd need a lot of explaining.  I don't think "the world turned upside down" is in and of itself is sufficient to the task.  We shall see.
> 
> In the comics, Power Broker is more an icon of corporate malfeasance than government, but they could do something different in the MCU.




Yeah I’d be suprised if it is Ross, the blip would have to have really scrambled world politics for him to make the change (and that wasnt evident in WandaVision).

I can see Ross being the US rep on the GRC and the Power Broker being ‘aligned‘ to the GRC too - indeed the GRC being the new nefarious Organisation for the MCU future is another theory Ive seen which I think is more credible.

NB Also add Victor Von Doom to the GRC, as the Heroic leader of Latveria that went in and helped rebuild the former towns and villages of Sokovia and then the other European nations affected by the Blip.


----------



## Tonguez

OMG I had an idle moment and it hit me - the GRC needs to be an ’Enlightened Council’ made up of Secretary of State Thaddeus Ross (USA), The Powerbroker (Asia), Dr Victor Von Doom (Europe), Ambassador Ororo Munroe(Africa), Dr Strange (Sorcerer Supreme) and Professor Xavier (just because)...

Prince Namor can join later


----------



## Zaukrie

There is something about this show that is missing for me.  I like it, but I don't love it, and I don't know why.


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> There is something about this show that is missing for me.  I like it, but I don't love it, and I don't know why.




I mean, it is pretty normal Marvel stuff.  WandaVision was a massive departure in style, a great creative effort.  Falcon and Winter Soldier is in the style of Civil War.  There's plot motion, but not a lot of innovation in the storytelling.

And that's okay.  We need some standard material in there too, or else you probably wear out the audience.


----------



## Vael

Yeah, after the out of the box Wandavision, Falcon and Winter Soldier feels very a little staid. I'm enjoying it, the cast is solid, but it's not as enthralling and enticing as Wandavision.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> I mean, it is pretty normal Marvel stuff.  WandaVision was a massive departure in style, a great creative effort.  Falcon and Winter Soldier is in the style of Civil War.  There's plot motion, but not a lot of innovation in the storytelling.
> 
> And that's okay.  We need some standard material in there too, or else you probably wear out the audience.




Well, if covid had not messed up the release schedule, this would have come out before WandaVision, so the adjustment from one to the other would not have happened at all.

And after this, we jump into the craziness of Loki. Because of that, I think the changed release schedule works better. This way, we do not go from the crazy of WandaVision straight into the crazy of Loki, but instead have this show in between, to calm things down.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ross as Powerbroker, and Sharon as Powerbroker are both interesting ideas, but neither seem to make much logical sense. Of course illogical stuff has happened before, so I can't rule them out completely.

I can't see them introducing Victor Von Doom in this show.

Since I'm happy to back outsiders, I'm still putting my money on a Zola AI (because who doesn't back up their data?) as the Powerbroker.

Can anything be deduced from the "The Powerbroker is Watching You" graffiti? Is it more than a simple _1984_ callout? Can the eyes be matched to anyone?

Ross does seem like a good candidate to head up the GRC, which is probably evil. Just why where they hoarding all those supplies?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

TFatWS Episode Four (The Flag Smashers), synopsis:



Spoiler: Redacted by the TVA



Sam, Bucky and Zemo catch up with the Flag Smashers, and Zemo puts his plan to kill all the enhanced individuals into motion.

However, Bucky has anticipated Zemo and doublecrossed him to Wakandian Intelligence, who storm in and take Zemo into custody.

Karli is captured and is dishing the dirt on the GRC to Sam when Walker bursts in and beats Karli to death.

Walkers' actions are captured on a mobile phone and "Captain America beats a defenceless young girl to death" goes viral.


----------



## trappedslider

For your viewing pleasure


----------



## trappedslider

well...that happened 



Spoiler



I'm a little let down that they didn't show us Walker taking the serum. I also thought they would go for a decapitation, and nice call back to The Frist Avenger movie on how Walker and Lamar  entered, with Walker holding his side arm up over the shield. I think Walker will lose the shield and Captain America name either next episode or in the last one.


----------



## Tonguez

Apparently Ayo isnt very good as Dora Melaje, she let herself get distracted and let Zemo escape - this is the third time! 

Other than that I liked the episode and it pretty much played out predictably, although I too expected decapitation


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Tonguez said:


> Apparently Ayo isnt very good as Dora Melaje, she let herself get distracted and let Zemo escape - this is the third time!
> 
> Other than that I liked the episode and it pretty much played out predictably, although I too expected decapitation



Yeah . . . it was still very brutal, though. This is going to be . . . interesting. I wonder how the world will react in the next episode. This one was predictable, but I'm guessing the next one will be less so.


----------



## embee

Goddamn does Wyatt Russell sound like his dad.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Super soldier serum:



Spoiler



All the recaps I have read are assuming the other 11 vials were all destroyed by Zemo, but has anyone taken the time to count how many are shown on-screen being destroyed? I also need to rewatch because I thought I heard Karli say there were still a couple left, but I may have misheard. Anyway, the Flag Smashers are now down to 6 super members, from 8, and Walker is how super. Lemar dying deviates from the comics in more  than just his death, as I thought I read he was given the serum also, when Walker got the serum from the Power Broker.


----------



## MarkB

Tonguez said:


> Apparently Ayo isnt very good as Dora Melaje, she let herself get distracted and let Zemo escape - this is the third time!
> 
> Other than that I liked the episode and it pretty much played out predictably, although I too expected decapitation



Yeah, if I had a criticism of this episode it would be that it is basically just every single character acting exactly as you expect them to act, with very predictable consequences.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

MarkB said:


> Yeah, if I had a criticism of this episode it would be that it is basically just every single character acting exactly as you expect them to act, with very predictable consequences.



But, is that a bad thing? They've done a good job at outlining the characters, to the point that we can understand what they're doing and why they're doing it. Sam wants to talk with Karli because he understands her frustrations, Walker doesn't want to do that because he's a jerkass control freak that can't trust someone else to do the job right. Zemo tries to kill Karli because he hates Super Soldiers, and then gets to destroying the Serum. Walker takes the Serum because he keeps getting his ass whooped by everyone and thinks it will help him save lives (which it ends up doing the opposite of. . .). Lamar gets killed saving Walker's life, and Walker then goes berserk and takes revenge by brutally killing Karli's friend in public. 

It's pretty straightforward and is basically what you would expect to happen, but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing. This was the first episode that I found all that predictable, and I'm guessing the next one will be less predictable when it deals with the fallout of this one.


----------



## trappedslider

Now I really wanna see Bucky kick Walker's ass or take the shield from and use Stark's "That shield doesn't belong to _you_. _You don't deserve_ it!" line.


----------



## Stalker0

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Yeah . . . it was still very brutal, though. This is going to be . . . interesting. I wonder how the world will react in the next episode. This one was predictable, but I'm guessing the next one will be less so.



I guess the question is....what are the standing orders regarding the flag smashers? Are they to be taken as prisoners', or are they enemy soldiers where lethal force is authorized?

The attack was brutal but honestly may have been justified under the current rules of engagement. But of course, having your Captain America brutally finish a guy on camera is just bad PR, even if he was "allowed to" based on his current orders.

I'm asking trying to think back on the various OG Captain America scenes, as I have a theory. Do we ever really see OG Cap get truly "angry". I could argue that the serum for him would always turn his anger into "determination", whereas with John it turned it into "rage".


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> Yeah, if I had a criticism of this episode it would be that it is basically just every single character acting exactly as you expect them to act, with very predictable consequences.




The one guy who I wasn't sure about was Zemo when he got the serum. There is that moment where he has the Serum, and I think a part of him is a little bit tempted. But ultimately he sticks to his principals which I thought was very cool. Say what you want about Zemo, but any person who can turn down power for principal when its straight up handed to them gets a bit of respect.


----------



## Morrus

MarkB said:


> Yeah, if I had a criticism of this episode it would be that it is basically just every single character acting exactly as you expect them to act, with very predictable consequences.



Yeah. It's fine. It's functional and competent and watchable with good action choreography. But it's not all that _interesting_.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Stalker0 said:


> I guess the question is....what are the standing orders regarding the flag smashers? Are they to be taken as prisoners', or are they enemy soldiers where lethal force is authorized?
> 
> The attack was brutal but honestly may have been justified under the current rules of engagement. But of course, having your Captain America brutally finish a guy on camera is just bad PR, even if he was "allowed to" based on his current orders.
> 
> I'm asking trying to think back on the various OG Captain America scenes, as I have a theory. Do we ever really see OG Cap get truly "angry". I could argue that the serum for him would always turn his anger into "determination", whereas with John it turned it into "rage".



. . . Does that even matter? Seriously, does this question even need asking? Any reasonable person knows that if someone is laying on their back on the ground surrendering, you do not brutally murder them. It doesn't matter if it's public or not, or if they're wanted terrorists, you just don't do it. You arrest them for their crimes and then they're tried in a court of law. This is a textbook case of police brutality, even if Walker isn't a police officer. If you choose "kill this person" over "take them in", that is objectively wrong and unnecessary brutality.

PR shouldn't even be in consideration here. This is unnecessary force from the person who is supposed to be protecting us, which is quite obviously a parallel to the real world police brutality of last year that became public (especially mirroring the case of George Floyd). This is supposed to bring up a dilemma, what do you do when your protectors get corrupt and start abusing their power? Zemo has a real, valid point here. Power tends to corrupt, especially for people who want/seek after that power. If we give people the idea that they are the law (or that they are above it), that causes all sorts of problems, such as them straight up murdering people in cold blood in public.

Because that's what this is, and what police brutality that ends in death is. It's murder. If someone is at your mercy, and you choose to kill them, that's murder. If the guy was fighting back and trying to kill Walker, that's different. It's still bad for PR, because no one wants to see your heroes killing people in public, even if it is in self defense. However, this wasn't self defense. It was rage-fueled, cold-blooded murder with the very symbol that is meant to be a sign of security and democracy. It doesn't matter what the orders were, or what they were supposed to do, because in the moment, Walker decided to take vengeance into his own hands and murder someone right in front of the world.


----------



## Tonguez

Stalker0 said:


> The one guy who I wasn't sure about was Zemo when he got the serum. There is that moment where he has the Serum, and I think a part of him is a little bit tempted. But ultimately he sticks to his principals which I thought was very cool. Say what you want about Zemo, but any person who can turn down power for principal when its straight up handed to them gets a bit of respect.



Yeah, I did like that scene, and it did appear that he was considering keeping the serum but ultimately stuck to his mission - which is cool.
Its going to be interesting to see where he goes from here or has he been written out of the rest of the show via Dora Melaje


----------



## Tonguez

AcererakTriple6 said:


> . . . Does that even matter? Seriously, does this question even need asking? Any reasonable person knows that if someone is laying on their back on the ground surrendering, you do not brutally murder them. It doesn't matter if it's public or not, or if they're wanted terrorists, you just don't do it. You arrest them for their crimes and then they're tried in a court of law. This is a textbook case of police brutality, even if Walker isn't a police. If you choose "kill this person" over "take them in", that is objectively wrong and unnecessary brutality.
> 
> PR shouldn't even be in consideration here. This is unnecessary force from the person who is supposed to be protecting us, which is quite obviously a parallel to the real world police brutality of last year that became public (especially mirroring the case of George Floyd). This is supposed to bring up a dilemma, what do you do when your protectors get corrupt and start abusing their power. Zemo has a real, valid point here. Power tends to corrupt, especially to people who want/seek after that power. If we give people the idea that they are the law (or that they are above it), that causes all sorts of problems, such as them straight up murdering people in cold blood in public.
> 
> Because that's what this is, and what police brutality that ends in death is. It's murder. If someone is at your mercy, and you choose to kill them, that's murder. If the guy was fighting back and trying to kill Walker, that's different. It's still bad for PR, because no one wants to see your heroes killing people in public, even if it is in self defense. However, this wasn't self defense. It was rage-fueled, cold-blooded murder with the very symbol that is meant to be a sign of security and democracy. It doesn't matter what the orders were, or what they were supposed to do, because in the moment, Walker decided to take vengeance into his own hands and murder someone right in front of the world.




Apologies to Morrus and the Mods, but as a non-American watching that scene one of my thoughts was “okay, so they’ve actually shown American military might being used brutally against foreign nationals, its good they’ve shown that the Stars and Stripes arent the defenders of freedom they pretend to be...”


----------



## Staffan

And of course...


Spoiler



they kill the black guy to show that Things Just Got Serious.


----------



## Rune

Stalker0 said:


> I guess the question is....what are the standing orders regarding the flag smashers? Are they to be taken as prisoners', or are they enemy soldiers where lethal force is authorized?
> 
> The attack was brutal but honestly may have been justified under the current rules of engagement. But of course, having your Captain America brutally finish a guy on camera is just bad PR, even if he was "allowed to" based on his current orders.



@AcererakTriple6 took the words right out of my mouth (and presented them more articulately than I would have) in response. Killing a surrendered enemy is murder, even in war. The brutality isn’t as much the point.


Stalker0 said:


> I'm asking trying to think back on the various OG Captain America scenes, as I have a theory. Do we ever really see OG Cap get truly "angry". I could argue that the serum for him would always turn his anger into "determination", whereas with John it turned it into "rage".



The scene pretty closely mirrored the climactic scene from Civil War. Notably, Rogers chose not to kill Tony. 

Of course, Rogers was probably “determined” and not “angry”. Tony was the angry one.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Rune said:


> Killing a surrendered enemy is murder, even in war. The brutality isn’t as much the point.




The killing was bad, but it was a killing of a super soldier, who could have gotten up and smashed Walker through a brick wall. Of course, it was not just killing a dangerous enemy, it was how he did it and in front of cameras and people who had no idea the other person could do the same to Walker. If the serum made him rage like that once, it will do it again.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The killing was bad, but it was a killing of a super soldier, who could have gotten up and smashed Walker through a brick wall. Of course, it was not just killing a dangerous enemy, it was how he did it and in front of cameras and people who had no idea the other person could do the same to Walker. If the serum made him rage like that once, it will do it again.



I'm not sure how much of this we can put on the serum. Walker might have done the same even without it.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> I'm not sure how much of this we can put on the serum. Walker might have done the same even without it.




Hopefully we will find out in the final two episodes. He may have still lost control, but without the serum, he would not have been able to kill the guy, or at least I don't think he could have. OF course, he could have just pulled his pistol and emptied the clip into him too, without the serum. Being part of the plot, I think that guy was dead, no matter what.


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Hopefully we will find out in the final two episodes. He may have still lost control, but without the serum, he would not have been able to kill the guy, or at least I don't think he could have. OF course, he could have just pulled his pistol and emptied the clip into him too, without the serum. Being part of the plot, I think that guy was dead, no matter what.



He managed to embed the shield into a stone column before using the serum, so who knows.


----------



## Morrus

Tonguez said:


> He managed to embed the shield into a stone column before using the serum, so who knows.



I'm pretty sure that was after he used the serum.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> I'm pretty sure that was after he used the serum.



Yep - that was supposed to be our first clue that he'd gone ahead and done it off-screen.


----------



## Morrus

MarkB said:


> Yep - that was supposed to be our first clue that he'd gone ahead and done it off-screen.



The first clue was when he kicked that door in.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The killing was bad, but it was a killing of a super soldier, who could have gotten up and smashed Walker through a brick wall.



_Could have_, but from the look of absolute terror that I saw on his face when running away from Walker and laying on his back, he _would _not have done that. _Would _and _could _are distinct, and this is important. Right now, I could walk out onto the street and punch the first person I saw in the face, and probably get away with it if I were to run away fast enough, but I would not do that because I'm not a psychotic jerk.

That guy was pleading for his life, saying "It wasn't me" (or something similar, I don't quite remember), knowing that Walker _*would *_kill him if he were caught and Walker did just that. It doesn't matter if the guy was dangerous, he was running and pleading for his life, and in no circumstance is it justified to kill him (_especially not like that_).


Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Of course, it was not just killing a dangerous enemy, it was how he did it and in front of cameras and people who had no idea the other person could do the same to Walker. If the serum made him rage like that once, it will do it again.



I agree with the others that think he would have done it without the serum. Lamar was dead, he was raging, which we know he could do before having the serum. He would have shot him, or found some other way to kill him. He likely thinks he did nothing wrong, and will just try to hunt down the other Flag Smashers to kill them in similar ways.


----------



## Rune

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The killing was bad, but it was a killing of a super soldier, who could have gotten up and smashed Walker through a brick wall. Of course, it was not just killing a dangerous enemy, it was how he did it and in front of cameras and people who had no idea the other person could do the same to Walker. If the serum made him rage like that once, it will do it again.



So, you’re saying supers don’t get to surrender? That seems like a terrible precedent to set. Morally _and_ practically.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The killing was bad, but it was a killing of a super soldier, who could have gotten up and smashed Walker through a brick wall. Of course, it was not just killing a dangerous enemy, it was how he did it and in front of cameras and people who had no idea the other person could do the same to Walker. If the serum made him rage like that once, it will do it again.



I just rewatched that episode and that Flag Smasher was NOT a dangerous enemy.
He was terrified and fleeing for his life.

While fleeing, he threw a stone (?) garbage bin at Walker. Not as an attempt to hurt him but to put something between him and Walkers wrath.

He turns and continues to flee when Walker hits him full force in the back with the shield sending him sprawling.
When the flag smasher attempts to get up? Walker hits him in the chest (edge wise) with the shield sending him down on his back again. When the flag smasher attempts to get up again? Walker hurls the shield at him again at close range to his chest.

Walker then literally walks up to the guy, uses his foot to shove him back down. He uses that same foot to hold the guy in place as the guy has his hands up yelling ("It wasn't me!!!  It wasn't me!!) when Walker brings the shield down on the guy (again, using its edge) not once, not twice but FOUR TIMES. 

He didnt kill the guy in a one on one fight.

That was an execution of a prone and non threatening foe.


----------



## Morrus

Decapitation America


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> Decapitation America



*Mod Edit:* Comment removed.  Whatever the intent, this came across very badly, and remoting it was better than having an argument over it.  ~Umbran


----------



## billd91

ShinHakkaider said:


> I just rewatched that episode and that Flag Smasher was NOT a dangerous enemy.
> He was terrified and fleeing for his life.
> 
> While fleeing, he threw a stone (?) garbage bin at Walker. Not as an attempt to hurt him but to put something between him and Walkers wrath.



He was also the only Flag Smasher that we’ve seen trying to keep Karli from engaging in her most extreme impulses. Narratively, *of course* it had to be him that Walker would kill.


----------



## billd91

I’m enjoying the show and its unabashed wallowing in gray area morality. Sam and Bucky are trying pretty hard to wear their white hats, but everyone else is a mix of positive and negative and they‘re all clashing.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

billd91 said:


> I’m enjoying the show and its unabashed wallowing in gray area morality. Sam and Bucky are trying pretty hard to wear their white hats, but everyone else is a mix of positive and negative and they‘re all clashing.



I’d say the show only counts as “grey” in terms of individuals. In terms of actions, policies, etc, it is very black and white.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’d say the show only counts as “grey” in terms of individuals. In terms of actions, policies, etc, it is very black and white.



Definitely. Pretty much all of the characters are gray, from Karli, to Lamar, to Bucky, and even Zemo, but there is also a lot of black and white. Karli's bombing of innocents is bad, Walker's taking of the serum and the murder of Karli's friend is bad, Zemo's destruction of the serum is good, Sam's attempt to reason is good, and Bucky's anger at Sam for giving up the shield is also pretty justified. 

I wonder if they will actually destroy the Shield at the end of this series (if they can even do that). It has been mentioned quite a bit already, to the extent where it feels like if it gets mentioned so much it must happen. Zemo's statement about symbols and them being used to cover up flaws is a good point, and may be why Sam and/or Bucky eventually decide to destroy the Shield in an effort to prevent it from ever being misused by someone like Walker in the future. Sam could use the Shield and uphold its meaning, but it may be even more meaningful for both the character and the show if he decides that the destruction of the symbol is the best option. It kind of reminds me of Peter turning down being an Avenger (and the Iron Spider Suit) at the end of Spider-Man: Homecoming.


----------



## trappedslider

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I wonder if they will actually destroy the Shield at the end of this series (if they can even do that).



I'm pretty sure they can destroy it, it may just a huge effort and possibly some help from Wakanda.


----------



## Sithlord

This series is so disappointing on so many levels.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Definitely. Pretty much all of the characters are gray, from Karli, to Lamar, to Bucky, and even Zemo, but there is also a lot of black and white. Karli's bombing of innocents is bad, Walker's taking of the serum and the murder of Karli's friend is bad, Zemo's destruction of the serum is good, Sam's attempt to reason is good, and Bucky's anger at Sam for giving up the shield is also pretty justified.



Sam’s reasons for giving up the shield are also totally understandable. 

I’d argue that Zemo’s destruction of the serum is ambiguous, but 100% in keeping with his principles.

The problem is, the MCU doesn’t _really_ earn the premise of “Zemo having a point”. Like, he is understandable, but he definitely isn’t right, which is in contrast to Killmonger, who was right about everything but the method. 


AcererakTriple6 said:


> I wonder if they will actually destroy the Shield at the end of this series (if they can even do that). It has been mentioned quite a bit already, to the extent where it feels like if it gets mentioned so much it must happen. Zemo's statement about symbols and them being used to cover up flaws is a good point, and may be why Sam and/or Bucky eventually decide to destroy the Shield in an effort to prevent it from ever being misused by someone like Walker in the future. Sam could use the Shield and uphold its meaning, but it may be even more meaningful for both the character and the show if he decides that the destruction of the symbol is the best option. It kind of reminds me of Peter turning down being an Avenger (and the Iron Spider Suit) at the end of Spider-Man: Homecoming.



Maybe, though I think it would be more meaningful for the audience to see Sam as Captain America.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

doctorbadwolf said:


> Sam’s reasons for giving up the shield are also totally understandable.



I agree. Edit: I missed the "also", and thought you disagreed with me. My mistake.


doctorbadwolf said:


> I’d argue that Zemo’s destruction of the serum is ambiguous, but 100% in keeping with his principles.
> 
> The problem is, the MCU doesn’t _really_ earn the premise of “Zemo having a point”. Like, he is understandable, but he definitely isn’t right, which is in contrast to Killmonger, who was right about everything but the method.



The super-soldier serum is a powerful weapon, and powerful weapons are dangerous. The world would be better off without nuclear weapons, as in the wrong hands, disaster strikes. Zemo is definitely a bad guy, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I disagree. I think they earned it. Zemo won in Civil War. The only thing he lost was his opportunity to take his life when T'challa stopped him from shooting himself. His methods were/are completely wrong, but his points that power should not be handed to people who don't deserve it (and very, very few truly deserve power), and that good/well-meaning symbols can be used in bad ways are correct. With great power comes great responsibility and symbols/ideals are tools and not excuses. It doesn't matter if Walker or Karli genuinely want to improve the world (I'm doubtful that Walker took up the role of Captain America for any non-selfish reason), but their means are not justified by their end goals. It doesn't matter if the Flag Smashers' grievances are legitimate, or if Walker truly wanted to bring terrorists to justice - the ends do not justify the means and the symbols used by them cannot/shouldn't be used as an excuse. It doesn't matter if I'm correct in saying "Nerds shouldn't be bullied in schools" or something similar, if I go about it by harming others, I can't fall back on my own experiences being bullied or our community to support me. (This goes the other way, too. If someone uses a symbol of good to inflict harm, that doesn't make the symbol and their cause bad, it makes the person and their action bad.)

Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but I am pretty sure the writers of this show are trying to do some serious social commentary, on both ends of the spectrum. Walker is wrong, bad, and a supremacist, but murder/violence is never the answer.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I disagree. I think they earned it. Zemo won in Civil War. The only thing he lost was his opportunity to take his life when T'challa stopped him from shooting himself. His methods were/are completely wrong, but his points that power should not be handed to people who don't deserve it (and very, very few truly deserve power), and that symbols can be used in bad ways are correct. With great power comes great responsibility and symbols/ideals are tools and not excuses. It doesn't matter if Walker or Karli genuinely want to improve the world (I'm doubtful that Walker took up the role of Captain America for any non-selfish reason), but their means are not justified by their end goals. It doesn't matter if the Flag Smashers' grievances are legitimate, or if Walker truly wanted to bring terrorists to justice - the ends do not justify the means and the symbols used by them cannot/shouldn't be used as an excuse. It doesn't matter if I'm correct in saying "Nerds shouldn't be bullied in schools" or something similar, if I go about it by harming others, I can't fall back on my own experiences being bullied or our community to support me. (This goes the other way, too. If someone uses a symbol of good to inflict harm, that doesn't make the symbol and their cause bad, it makes the person and their action bad.)
> 
> Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but I am pretty sure the writers of this show are trying to do some serious social commentary, on both ends of the spectrum. Walker is wrong, bad, and a supremacist, but murder/violence is never the answer.



I don’t think any of that challenges what I said.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

doctorbadwolf said:


> I don’t think any of that challenges what I said.




I disagree, and (currently) 3 others seem to as well.


----------



## tomBitonti

Stalker0 said:


> I guess the question is....what are the standing orders regarding the flag smashers? Are they to be taken as prisoners', or are they enemy soldiers where lethal force is authorized?
> 
> The attack was brutal but honestly may have been justified under the current rules of engagement. But of course, having your Captain America brutally finish a guy on camera is just bad PR, even if he was "allowed to" based on his current orders.
> 
> I'm asking trying to think back on the various OG Captain America scenes, as I have a theory. Do we ever really see OG Cap get truly "angry". I could argue that the serum for him would always turn his anger into "determination", whereas with John it turned it into "rage".



Well, it looked like killing was entirely unnecessary.  The guy was down and out when new cap killed him.  It seemed that the killing served New cap’s rage.  Would the killing be justified if the guy had surrendered and had ceased to offer resistance?
TomB


----------



## doctorbadwolf

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I disagree, and (currently) 3 others seem to disagree.



Most of your post doesn’t even engage with the same ideas and conflicts that I referred to. It read, to me, like you meant to reply to someone else. What does it have to do with anything I said?


----------



## doctorbadwolf

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I disagree. I think they earned it. Zemo won in Civil War.



What on earth does this have to do with whether the MCU has earned the whole premise that superheroes are maybe bad for the world, which is Zemo’s whole thing? 


AcererakTriple6 said:


> The only thing he lost was his opportunity to take his life when T'challa stopped him from shooting himself. His methods were/are completely wrong, but his points that power should not be handed to people who don't deserve it (and very, very few truly deserve power), and that good/well-meaning symbols can be used in bad ways are correct. With great power comes great responsibility and symbols/ideals are tools and not excuses.



what is with the rant about excuses? Zemo believes the world is better off without superheroes, but the MCU just kinda...started having people say that without at all showing any really good reason for a rational person to believe it. It’s understandable that Zemo believes it, but he’s clearly wrong.


----------



## Tonguez

doctorbadwolf said:


> What on earth does this have to do with whether the MCU has earned the whole premise that superheroes are maybe bad for the world, which is Zemo’s whole thing?
> 
> what is with the rant about excuses? Zemo believes the world is better off without superheroes, but the MCU just kinda...started having people say that without at all showing any really good reason for a rational person to believe it. It’s understandable that Zemo believes it, but he’s clearly wrong.



Wasnt the entire plot of Age of Ultron and Civil War about the fact that Superheroes cause as many problems as they solve and thus need to be contained?  Even Spiderman Homecoming and WandaVision cue the same questions about whether Superheroes are a boon or a menace to society.
Really the MCU has been meditating on the question from the beginning (notably Hulk and Ironman), but Zemo has been the best articulation of the conundrum ...


----------



## Stalker0

Was just rewatching Captain America: The First Avenger.

The last line from Red Skull is actually pretty cool when you consider FWS: "I have seen the future Captain, there are no flags".


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Tonguez said:


> Wasnt the entire plot of Age of Ultron and Civil War about the fact that Superheroes cause as many problems as they solve and thus need to be contained?  Even Spiderman Homecoming and WandaVision cue the same questions about whether Superheroes are a boon or a menace to society.
> Really the MCU has been meditating on the question from the beginning (notably Hulk and Ironman), but Zemo has been the best articulation of the conundrum ...



Sure, the MCU has tried to hamfist this nonsense idea into the franchise, but it _really_ fails most of the time, and the other times are only partial failures.

Age of Ultron isn’t a result of superheroes, it’s a result of _a scientist developing AI tech too recklessly._ The superheroes then stop the AI monster from murdering humanity or whatever. It’s only to give personal stakes and create internal and interteam struggle that the scientist happens to also be part of the team, but nothing about Ultron’s creation actually relies on the existence of superheroes. In a timeline without supers, Ultron could just as easily come about, and have no one to stop him.

Wandavision and civil war make a spectacle case for oversight of superheroes, for sure, though the incident with Wanda in CW is...extremely normal for US military action abroad, so it falls a bit flat for me.

The worst case is attempts to paint the battle of New York as somehow indicative of this whole “supers break as much as they save” garbage notion. They saved the world from an alien invasion. The alien invaders broke part of the city, and the Avengers contained the damage while minimizing casualties, and stopped the invasion. Whatever fallout comes from alien tech and whatever else, is on Loki and the alien invaders. This is like blaming firefighters for water damage. It’s obnoxiously silly.

The _only_ things Zemo is right about are; 

It’s a bit sad but predictable that none of them visited the Sokovia memorial (also BS Steve didn’t. Nope. Steve absolutely 100% would have.)
He is right to be bitter about his home, and to direct that at Stark, and at the Avengers for not holding Stark accountable
Symbols can be dangerous sometimes. He wildly exaggerated the case, but technically he is right that they can be.


----------



## Tonguez

Stalker0 said:


> Was just rewatching Captain America: The First Avenger.
> 
> The last line from Red Skull is actually pretty cool when you consider FWS: "I have seen the future Captain, there are no flags".



That is pretty cool, and I’d be truely in awe if it was planned that way from the very beginning - I suppose, the writers do take notes from the earlier films and does Feige maintain a MCU bible?


----------



## DeviousQuail

billd91 said:


> He was also the only Flag Smasher that we’ve seen trying to keep Karli from engaging in her most extreme impulses. Narratively, *of course* it had to be him that Walker would kill.



And he looked up to the original Captain America (convo with Karli in the cemetary). Being brutally killed with Cap's shield just makes it all the more tragic.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

AcererakTriple6 said:


> But, is that a bad thing? They've done a good job at outlining the characters, to the point that we can understand what they're doing and why they're doing it.



It's a bad thing when supposedly competent characters act like idiots. Walker getting distracted is in character, but Sam, Bucky and Ayo should all have known better than to let Zemo out of their sight for an instant.


----------



## Staffan

doctorbadwolf said:


> Sure, the MCU has tried to hamfist this nonsense idea into the franchise, but it _really_ fails most of the time, and the other times are only partial failures.
> 
> Age of Ultron isn’t a result of superheroes, it’s a result of _a scientist developing AI tech too recklessly._ The superheroes then stop the AI monster from murdering humanity or whatever. It’s only to give personal stakes and create internal and interteam struggle that the scientist happens to also be part of the team, but nothing about Ultron’s creation actually relies on the existence of superheroes. In a timeline without supers, Ultron could just as easily come about, and have no one to stop him.
> 
> Wandavision and civil war make a spectacle case for oversight of superheroes, for sure, though the incident with Wanda in CW is...extremely normal for US military action abroad, so it falls a bit flat for me.



I think a better, more generic case could be made that *concentration of power* is dangerous. That power could be physical, as in the case of super soldiers or, more extremely, the Hulk, or it could be technological, as in the case of Stark/Ultron. Heck, widen the perspective a bit and you could also make the case for financial and political power, but I doubt Marvel's going to go all anarchist on us.

However, there's one point where Zemo's argument falls very flat, and that is that this is a world with supers *anyway*. There are aliens with literally god-like powers walking the Earth. There are sorcerers who can rewrite reality and bend time. Random chance endows people with enormous power — Danvers is the most prominent example, but there's also Parker and whatever is going on with Rambeau, plus a whole lot of folks if you include Agents of SHIELD. These are things that happen regardless of the existence of the super-soldier serum. If anything, the serum provides an opportunity to equalize the playing field, by creating supers in a controlled fashion.

A stronger argument would be that the serum in particular is dangerous, because it amplifies negative personality traits more than positive ones — that's why it was so hard for the OSS to find a suitable candidate back in the day.


----------



## MarkB

Staffan said:


> I think a better, more generic case could be made that *concentration of power* is dangerous. That power could be physical, as in the case of super soldiers or, more extremely, the Hulk, or it could be technological, as in the case of Stark/Ultron. Heck, widen the perspective a bit and you could also make the case for financial and political power, but I doubt Marvel's going to go all anarchist on us.
> 
> However, there's one point where Zemo's argument falls very flat, and that is that this is a world with supers *anyway*. There are aliens with literally god-like powers walking the Earth. There are sorcerers who can rewrite reality and bend time. Random chance endows people with enormous power — Danvers is the most prominent example, but there's also Parker and whatever is going on with Rambeau, plus a whole lot of folks if you include Agents of SHIELD. These are things that happen regardless of the existence of the super-soldier serum. If anything, the serum provides an opportunity to equalize the playing field, by creating supers in a controlled fashion.
> 
> A stronger argument would be that the serum in particular is dangerous, because it amplifies negative personality traits more than positive ones — that's why it was so hard for the OSS to find a suitable candidate back in the day.



I think the issue is that they've been trying to make a real-world point out of what is, essentially, a narrative device - the idea of the proliferation of superpowered heroes leading to a similar proliferation of overpowered threats, with the stakes rising to the point where the collateral damage to non-powered bystanders is tremendous. In comics this seems to get brought up a lot with Batman - the idea that his masked-vigilante approach is somehow responsible for the amount of weird and twisted villains in Gotham.

The thing is that this isn't actually a result of any in-universe imperative. It's purely the result of narrative imperatives - the need for writers to keep audiences interested by raising the stakes for each subsequent movie or comic story, which inevitably escalates the conflicts and casualties involved.

When the writers - whether in comics, movies or TV series - try to treat this as a real, in-universe matter of cause and effect, it always falls flat because it's always a very obvious attempt to paper over the narrative cracks.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> I guess the question is....what are the standing orders regarding the flag smashers? Are they to be taken as prisoners', or are they enemy soldiers where lethal force is authorized?
> 
> The attack was brutal but honestly may have been justified under the current rules of engagement. But of course, having your Captain America brutally finish a guy on camera is just bad PR, even if he was "allowed to" based on his current orders.



This happens in Latvia, a real world sovereign country and member state of the European Union. There are no rules of engagement that would make Walker's actions anything other than murder.


----------



## Staffan

Stalker0 said:


> I'm asking trying to think back on the various OG Captain America scenes, as I have a theory. Do we ever really see OG Cap get truly "angry". I could argue that the serum for him would always turn his anger into "determination", whereas with John it turned it into "rage".



I'm not sure we ever see Steve get into a situation where he would be *personally* angered. He's always a bit distant — he has comrades in arms, but I think pretty much no true friends (other than Bucky). He was clearly attracted to Peggy before being put on ice, but their relationship never got anywhere, and I don't think we ever saw him in a situation where she was seriously harmed or even threatened. I think everyone other than those two are basically on a buddy/co-worker basis with Steve.

The relationship between John and Lamar seemed a lot closer than the one between Steve and anyone else. Those two had been through some serious stuff together, building far stronger bonds. I'm not saying Steve would have reacted with rage toward someone similarly close being harmed, but we've never seen him tested like that.


----------



## MoonSong

Staffan said:


> I'm not sure we ever see Steve get into a situation where he would be *personally* angered. He's always a bit distant — he has comrades in arms, but I think pretty much no true friends (other than Bucky). He was clearly attracted to Peggy before being put on ice, but their relationship never got anywhere, and I don't think we ever saw him in a situation where she was seriously harmed or even threatened. I think everyone other than those two are basically on a buddy/co-worker basis with Steve.
> 
> The relationship between John and Lamar seemed a lot closer than the one between Steve and anyone else. Those two had been through some serious stuff together, building far stronger bonds. I'm not saying Steve would have reacted with rage toward someone similarly close being harmed, but we've never seen him tested like that.



I liked that humanization of the character. I don't approve of his actions, but I can understand his motivation. Poor Lemar.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> This happens in Latvia, a real world sovereign country and member state of the European Union. There are no rules of engagement that would make Walker's actions anything other than murder.




Except we have no clue what global powers were given to the Global Repatriation Council. Sometimes it sounds like the UN on steroids and with blanket authority.


----------



## billd91

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Except we have no clue what global powers were given to the Global Repatriation Council. Sometimes it sounds like the UN on steroids and with blanket authority.



Moreover, the Flag Smashers’ use of the super soldier formula probably makes them subject to the Sokovia Accords and Walker probably has some enforcement power there since Latvia most likely signed on to them.

None of that would likely make Walker‘s act kosher, but it does raise the stakes of what Karli tried to do and what she actually did. She is now basically a UN-cop killer.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Staffan said:


> I think a better, more generic case could be made that *concentration of power* is dangerous. That power could be physical, as in the case of super soldiers or, more extremely, the Hulk, or it could be technological, as in the case of Stark/Ultron. Heck, widen the perspective a bit and you could also make the case for financial and political power, but I doubt Marvel's going to go all anarchist on us.
> 
> However, there's one point where Zemo's argument falls very flat, and that is that this is a world with supers *anyway*. There are aliens with literally god-like powers walking the Earth. There are sorcerers who can rewrite reality and bend time. Random chance endows people with enormous power — Danvers is the most prominent example, but there's also Parker and whatever is going on with Rambeau, plus a whole lot of folks if you include Agents of SHIELD. These are things that happen regardless of the existence of the super-soldier serum. If anything, the serum provides an opportunity to equalize the playing field, by creating supers in a controlled fashion.
> 
> A stronger argument would be that the serum in particular is dangerous, because it amplifies negative personality traits more than positive ones — that's why it was so hard for the OSS to find a suitable candidate back in the day.



Sure, but since that isn’t Zemo’s argument, I’ll maintain that Zemo is wrong, but emotionally understandable.


----------



## Sacrosanct

Stalker0 said:


> I guess the question is....what are the standing orders regarding the flag smashers? Are they to be taken as prisoners', or are they enemy soldiers where lethal force is authorized?
> 
> The attack was brutal but honestly may have been justified under the current rules of engagement. But of course, having your Captain America brutally finish a guy on camera is just bad PR, even if he was "allowed to" based on his current orders.
> 
> I'm asking trying to think back on the various OG Captain America scenes, as I have a theory. Do we ever really see OG Cap get truly "angry". I could argue that the serum for him would always turn his anger into "determination", whereas with John it turned it into "rage".



Assuming CA is an American, it can be assumed he follows American standards on rules of engagement. (As an aside, military rules of engagement against other enemy soldiers is WAY more strict than police rules of engagement against civilians they are meant to protect, but that's a different, and better left alone, topic). 

killing a surrendering person is murder. Full stop. What he did was a crime, no way around it.


----------



## hopeless

I'd argue that Steve's reaction to Bucky makes that argument fall flat.


----------



## Eric V

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's a bad thing when supposedly competent characters act like idiots. Walker getting distracted is in character, but Sam, Bucky and Ayo should all have known better than to let Zemo out of their sight for an instant.



YES.

That whole scene was so very dumb.


----------



## Eric V

MoonSong said:


> I liked that humanization of the character. I don't approve of his actions, but I can understand his motivation. Poor Lemar.



Yeah, how come no one is being more understanding of Walker when it's obvious he's grieving...?


----------



## Eric V

Zemo is right, at least about the Super Soldier Serum: only one person in all the people who have taken it have concluded with good results.  So very many people are trying to get it, take it, make more...there really, really shouldn't be super soldiers.  And I don't think he's wrong about the _desire _to be super having some serious issues as well...maybe as soon as you yourself want to be super, you should be disqualified from getting the serum?  Rogers, notably, wanted to _serve_...it's just that the serum was the only way he was allowed.

Karli seemed to be going that way...then (out of the blue it seems) she blows up people and threatens Sam's family...ugh.  Got to make sure it's unambiguously right to punch her in the face. :/  Personally, not a fan of the writing.  Oh, well.


----------



## Tonguez

MarkB said:


> I think the issue is that they've been trying to make a real-world point out of what is, essentially, a narrative device - the idea of the proliferation of superpowered heroes leading to a similar proliferation of overpowered threats, with the stakes rising to the point where the collateral damage to non-powered bystanders is tremendous. In comics this seems to get brought up a lot with Batman - the idea that his masked-vigilante approach is somehow responsible for the amount of weird and twisted villains in Gotham.
> 
> The thing is that this isn't actually a result of any in-universe imperative. It's purely the result of narrative imperatives - the need for writers to keep audiences interested by raising the stakes for each subsequent movie or comic story, which inevitably escalates the conflicts and casualties involved.
> 
> When the writers - whether in comics, movies or TV series - try to treat this as a real, in-universe matter of cause and effect, it always falls flat because it's always a very obvious attempt to paper over the narrative cracks.




No Zemos argument isnt the Batman vigilantism leads to a spiral of crazy villains its that Superpowered Heroes are themselves a threat to society -even without enemies it is The Avengers who are the threat (which Hulk, Ironman, Scarlet Witch and now DeCap America all confirm is true)


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Eric V said:


> Yeah, how come no one is being more understanding of Walker when it's obvious he's grieving...?



. . . Are you serious? I mean, this has got to be a joke, right? 

Grief does not excuse murder. Nothing excuses murder. Nothing. It doesn't matter if his best friend died. Steve thought Bucky died in the First Avenger, but he didn't go on a murder spree. 

So, um, no. We're not going to cut Walker any slack because his friend died. That doesn't make up for his crime. (Why do people keep playing the Devil's Advocate for Walker? It's obvious he's a bad guy. You're not supposed to like him or want to defend him. He's a jerkass, supremacist, control freak, and not meant to be redeemable.)


----------



## Eric V

About Walker, though...

I would love to hear from people who never read about Walker in the comics.  I am NOT one of those people, and have been actively trying to only watch the character in front of me on TV without the rest influencing things, but it's tough.  Having said that...

His country asked him to be the new Cap.  Is there a higher honour?  Even if he himself legit wondered if he is good enough, he has the people in charge saying "YOU are our choice!"  So, he serves.  And it means a lot to him.  It's also a HUGE burden to live up to, and the pressure would be enormous, it seems to me.  Fortunately, he has his BFF alongside him to help.

Then, he has the opportunity to work with the 2 people who were the closest to the original Cap, and they make their distaste for him clear...even before he has a chance to really do anything to justify it.  Imagine being Walker there, trying to impress the best friends of the legend you are trying to live up to, and them just not having it, and not really giving you a chance.

Then imagine getting your ass kicked all the time (losing more in the first episodes than Rogers ever did?).  Then, the one person in the field  who believed in you as Cap is murdered.

Anyway, I am really just curious about the POV from those who didn't read those comics back in the day.


----------



## Eric V

AcererakTriple6 said:


> . . . Are you serious? I mean, this has got to be a joke, right?
> 
> Grief does not excuse murder. Nothing excuses murder. Nothing. It doesn't matter if his best friend died. Steve thought Bucky died in the First Avenger, but he didn't go on a murder spree.
> 
> So, um, no. We're not going to cut Walker any slack because his friend died. That doesn't make up for his crime. (Why do people keep playing the Devil's Advocate for Walker? It's obvious he's a bad guy. You're not supposed to like him or want to defend him. He's a jerkass, supremacist, control freak, and not meant to be redeemable.)



It is a joke.  It's what people were saying about Wanda at the end of her series.


----------



## MarkB

Eric V said:


> About Walker, though...
> 
> I would love to hear from people who never read about Walker in the comics.



I've never followed the Captain America comics, and I stopped reading Marvel comics before Walker showed up.


Eric V said:


> I am NOT one of those people, and have been actively trying to only watch the character in front of me on TV without the rest influencing things, but it's tough.  Having said that...
> 
> His country asked him to be the new Cap.  Is there a higher honour?  Even if he himself legit wondered if he is good enough, he has the people in charge saying "YOU are our choice!"  So, he serves.  And it means a lot to him.  It's also a HUGE burden to live up to, and the pressure would be enormous, it seems to me.  Fortunately, he has his BFF alongside him to help.
> 
> Then, he has the opportunity to work with the 2 people who were the closest to the original Cap, and they make their distaste for him clear...even before he has a chance to really do anything to justify it.



He followed Sam and Bucky clandestinely, using Sam's own tech behind his back, and butted in on their operation. That isn't having the opportunity to work with someone - it's taking the opportunity to use them for his own benefit. And that is more than sufficient to justify their distaste for him.


----------



## Tonguez

Eric V said:


> About Walker, though...
> 
> I would love to hear from people who never read about Walker in the comics.  I am NOT one of those people, and have been actively trying to only watch the character in front of me on TV without the rest influencing things, but it's tough.  Having said that...
> 
> His country asked him to be the new Cap.  Is there a higher honour?  Even if he himself legit wondered if he is good enough, he has the people in charge saying "YOU are our choice!"  So, he serves.  And it means a lot to him.  It's also a HUGE burden to live up to, and the pressure would be enormous, it seems to me.  Fortunately, he has his BFF alongside him to help.
> 
> Then, he has the opportunity to work with the 2 people who were the closest to the original Cap, and they make their distaste for him clear...even before he has a chance to really do anything to justify it.  Imagine being Walker there, trying to impress the best friends of the legend you are trying to live up to, and them just not having it, and not really giving you a chance.
> 
> Then imagine getting your ass kicked all the time (losing more in the first episodes than Rogers ever did?).  Then, the one person in the field  who believed in you as Cap is murdered.
> 
> Anyway, I am really just curious about the POV from those who didn't read those comics back in the day.



I’m one of those, I never read the Captain America comics, didnt like the character and my first exposure to Cap was him being beaten up by Black Panther when he tried to enter Wakanda uninvited.

So coming in with just the MCU and cartoon knowledge and a cynical view of US military,  to me initially John Walker seemed like a okay guy, obviously not Steve Rogers level of Good Giy, but a proven soldier who served his nation well and who was trying to make friends and do a good job.
I can see how Sams dismissive attitude to Walker has fed in to Walkers feelings of inadequacy and lead to anger and a drive to prove himself inspite of Sam and Bucky not considering him an equal. We do see some one-upmaniship from Walker (like tracking Red Wing and imposing themselves) and we see Walker being rough with civilians (again something anecdotally associated with US military irl) but Sam’s attitude does have some of the blame for bringing out the A-hole in Walker.

As to his downfall, even if I think using Ayo to do it was a dumb writing decision, I can understand how being beaten up by the Dora Malaje and ‘their pointy sticks’ would drive an accomplished American Hero to take the serum when he got the chance (its the drive for American Exceptionalism) and I can see how the death of his partner/friend would push him into a murderous rage

while others are saying outright that he’s a murderer, in one of my younger more cynical personas I’d probably say “_No, he’s just being an American_”*
(_I’ve matured since then and am a bit more sophisticated in my real world cynicism_)


----------



## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> Most of your post doesn’t even engage with the same ideas and conflicts that I referred to. It read, to me, like you meant to reply to someone else. What does it have to do with anything I said?




By the way - when you use the "laugh" emoji on posts you disagree with, it comes across as mocking.  That is _not_ the intent of having the emoji available.  Please don't do that.


----------



## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> what is with the rant about excuses? Zemo believes the world is better off without superheroes, but the MCU just kinda...started having people say that without at all showing any really good reason for a rational person to believe it. It’s understandable that Zemo believes it, but he’s clearly wrong.




No, it isn't "clearly" wrong.

Zemo had his family killed by the actions of superheroes.  Superheroes created a monster, and then countless people were hurt before they could stop it.  That is something a rational person can look at and say, "Yeah, superheroes are a bad idea."

A rational person can also say that superheroes are a good idea, as they were required to save half the people in the universe... but that point is weakened by how poorly the world is managing their return, such that the return is not an unalloyed good.


----------



## Sacrosanct

AcererakTriple6 said:


> . . . Are you serious? I mean, this has got to be a joke, right?
> 
> Grief does not excuse murder. Nothing excuses murder. Nothing. It doesn't matter if his best friend died. Steve thought Bucky died in the First Avenger, but he didn't go on a murder spree.
> 
> So, um, no. We're not going to cut Walker any slack because his friend died. That doesn't make up for his crime. (Why do people keep playing the Devil's Advocate for Walker? It's obvious he's a bad guy. You're not supposed to like him or want to defend him. He's a jerkass, supremacist, control freak, and not meant to be redeemable.)




As someone who spent all six years of my service overseas, with some of that in a combat zone and having lost 3 of my friends along the way, yeah, this is clear cut murder.  And the antithesis of everything the original Cap stood for as Captain America.  But even aside from that, legally it's murder.  Assuming the US is not at war with that country, it's not even an enemy combatant, so that raises a whole bunch of issues.  And it was on camera and broadcasted to the world, so no cover ups.  As I mentioned up thread, the rules of engagement for the military are actually quite strict.  Even if this person was considered a terrorist, you cannot kill a prisoner, which is what he was the minute he surrendered.  That's not even addressing the issue if Capt even had authority to arrest him in the first place in that country.

So yes, in a TV show that clearly loves their moral grey areas, you can almost feel sorry for Walker because he meant well, and was a war hero, and most likely had a ton of PTSD stuff going on, but that only means they shouldn't have pumped serum into a PTSD vet (what did they think was going to happen with how it amplifies personality traits?).  But it doesn't excuse how this was outright murder from a legal standpoint.  I'm assuming Cap doesn't have diplomatic immunity based on Civil War plot lines.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> This happens in Latvia, a real world sovereign country and member state of the European Union. There are no rules of engagement that would make Walker's actions anything other than murder.




While that happened in Latvian territory, the man who was killed was not Latvian. The Flag Smashers are certainly classified as a terrorist organization, and their membership as whatever terrorist and/or enemy combatant rules they have by the EU, which muddies the waters.  

Regardless, Walker brutally killed a man in front of a crowd of cameras.  The rules of engagement are secondary to public opinion concerning the poster boy.


----------



## Morrus

I mean, clearly the show thinks it’s wrong. That’s what the audience of phone cameras is for. I don’t know the character from Adam, but he’s very clearly telegraphed narratively as going bad due to the serum. There’s no grey wiggle room there. Unless there’s some weird twist coming, that’s the story they’re telling here.

(then again, Marvel doesn’t think Wanda is a supervillain, so what do I know?)


----------



## Stalker0

Morrus said:


> (then again, Marvel doesn’t think Wanda is a supervillain, so what do I know?)



hehe true that.

Walker (before the murder): This guy seems like a dick and I don't like him.

Wanda (we learn she has been mind controlling an entire town against their will): Wanda's had it tough lately, lets cut her some slack.


----------



## billd91

AcererakTriple6 said:


> . . . Are you serious? I mean, this has got to be a joke, right?
> 
> Grief does not excuse murder. Nothing excuses murder. Nothing. It doesn't matter if his best friend died. Steve thought Bucky died in the First Avenger, but he didn't go on a murder spree.
> 
> So, um, no. We're not going to cut Walker any slack because his friend died. That doesn't make up for his crime. (Why do people keep playing the Devil's Advocate for Walker? It's obvious he's a bad guy. You're not supposed to like him or want to defend him. He's a jerkass, supremacist, control freak, and not meant to be redeemable.)



It is, however, a reasonably frequent and predictable act. In their grief and anger, American GIs most certainly did gun down captured SS soldiers during the Battle of the Bulge in retaliation for the SS doing the same to prisoners they captured. American GIs did gun down captured concentration camp guards when they saw the situation and condition of the prisoners. And that's orders of magnitude less than what the Soviets did. These sorts of things *do* happen no matter what kind of command and control gets exerted over combat, and most of the time it's swept under the rug or compared with the perspective of the situation as a whole. So most of the GIs or Soviets who performed those murders were never held culpable. 
Walker's in a somewhat different situation as far as the politics and the optics. What he did was *very* public and there will obviously be fallout. It is, however, *understandable* within the context of centuries of human behavior and saying it isn't is really living in denial. So yeah, I have some sympathy for Walker. The situation he's in is extremely complicated and he's in over his head with respect to technology, combat ability, and overall expectations as a national symbol *and not all of that is his fault*. Yet, somehow, he's got to try to navigate his way though it and bring a bunch of super soldiers to justice. Big surprise he's going to screw up.


----------



## billd91

Stalker0 said:


> hehe true that.
> 
> Walker (before the murder): This guy seems like a dick and I don't like him.
> 
> Wanda (we learn she has been mind controlling an entire town against their will): Wanda's had it tough lately, lets cut her some slack.



Mind control is relatively subtle and it wasn’t done maliciously. It’s unlikely anyone is going to consider it anywhere near as severe as executing a guy in public. On the other hand, the latter goes on all the time in numerous countries - particularly the police and military depending on their targets (racial/ethnic minorities, insurgent groups, etc) - with little oversight. So


----------



## Morrus

billd91 said:


> It’s unlikely anyone is going to consider it anywhere near as severe as executing a guy in public.



Well, clearly. In that universe. That's established. I have no emotional empathy with that, but that is indeed what the Marvel universe says:  mass mental violation and kidnapping are trivial things. I personally find the concept horrifying.


----------



## Dire Bare

billd91 said:


> It is, however, a reasonably frequent and predictable act. In their grief and anger, American GIs most certainly did gun down captured SS soldiers during the Battle of the Bulge in retaliation for the SS doing the same to prisoners they captured. American GIs did gun down captured concentration camp guards when they saw the situation and condition of the prisoners. And that's orders of magnitude less than what the Soviets did. These sorts of things *do* happen no matter what kind of command and control gets exerted over combat, and most of the time it's swept under the rug or compared with the perspective of the situation as a whole. So most of the GIs or Soviets who performed those murders were never held culpable.
> Walker's in a somewhat different situation as far as the politics and the optics. What he did was *very* public and there will obviously be fallout. It is, however, *understandable* within the context of centuries of human behavior and saying it isn't is really living in denial. So yeah, I have some sympathy for Walker. The situation he's in is extremely complicated and he's in over his head with respect to technology, combat ability, and overall expectations as a national symbol *and not all of that is his fault*. Yet, somehow, he's got to try to navigate his way though it and bring a bunch of super soldiers to justice. Big surprise he's going to screw up.



You raise excellent points.

I still don't like Walker (_as a person, I love the character_). He's not a complete a-hole, nor a cartoonish villain, he's a fleshed out, relatable antagonist. You can understand why he does what he does, and sympathize . . . . but he still drove past a-hole town and straight to the Dark Side with the final act of episode 4. Not unlike Morgenthau and the Flag-Smashers.

I think Walker's time as DeCap America is over, not so much due to the ethics of his actions, but rather due to the optics. I doubt he'll be court-martialed or otherwise punished much, save for the demotion. Especially as the US military now has a super-soldier in their employ. Perhaps they'll give him a new super-suit and title, maybe Patriot? U.S. Agent? 

Even with his pending demotion, Walker might find himself with cheerleaders from among the American public. We have folks in our society now who would cheer him on with the ultra-violence towards those labeled terrorists.

You mention that this sort of rage-fueled violence isn't anything new, especially with soldiers, and that's true. But this sort of behavior is always considered against the rules of engagement and crimes of war. It is not okay, whether it's DeCap America John Walker or real American soldiers in the Middle East. Sometimes real soldiers get punished for this sort of behavior, sometimes its swept under the rug. Often depends on how visible the behavior was to Americans back home.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Dire Bare said:


> I think Walker's time as DeCap America is over, not so much due to the ethics of his actions, but rather due to the optics. I doubt he'll be court-martialed or otherwise punished much, save for the demotion. Especially as the US military now has a super-soldier in their employ. Perhaps they'll give him a new super-suit and title, maybe Patriot? U.S. Agent?




Not Patriot. That is the name used in the comic books by Isaiah's grandson, after he gets a blood transfusion from his grandfather and becomes superpowered, and then joins the Young Avengers. And the Young Avengers is something a lot of people are guessing is being set up for either Disney+ or as a series of movies. Several of the members have been introduced or teased in future shows so far.

As for Walker, we know in the real world that people can black out from fear or anger/rage or from drinking to much, and do things they have no idea they are doing. Maybe he was in a blackout rage and won't get the full punishment the world will think he deserves. It can be the difference between 1st degree murder and 3rd degree manslaughter. This show was filmed many months ago, but we have that high profile murder trial going on right now, with similarities. Sort of eerie that we are getting the show and the trial at the same time.


----------



## Morrus

Dire Bare said:


> You mention that this sort of rage-fueled violence isn't anything new, especially with soldiers, and that's true. But this sort of behavior is always considered against the rules of engagement and crimes of war. It is not okay, whether it's DeCap America John Walker or real American soldiers in the Middle East. Sometimes real soldiers get punished for this sort of behavior, sometimes its swept under the rug. Often depends on how visible the behavior was to Americans back home.



This isn't a war zone. This is a city in another country at peace where he just decapitated somebody in public. He'd be arrested and put on trial. No country in the world would do otherwise. The Americans literally have to launch a military incursion into a sovereign territory to forcibly extract him if they want him back now.*

*obviously that won't happen because it's a superhero TV show; so maybe we should all just stop comparing it to reality, because it isn't.


----------



## billd91

Morrus said:


> This isn't a war zone. This is a city in another country at peace where he just decapitated somebody in public. He'd be arrested and put on trial. No country in the world would do otherwise. The Americans literally have to launch a military incursion into a sovereign territory to forcibly extract him if they want him back now.*



oh, you innocent summer child...


----------



## Dire Bare

Morrus said:


> This isn't a war zone. This is a city in another country at peace where he just decapitated somebody in public. He'd be arrested and put on trial. No country in the world would do otherwise. The Americans literally have to launch a military incursion into a sovereign territory to forcibly extract him if they want him back now.*
> 
> *obviously that won't happen because it's a superhero TV show; so maybe we should all just stop comparing it to reality, because it isn't.



No, it's not a warzone. But Walker is a soldier and agent of the U.S. military, and the GRC. He's authorized to hunt down and deal with the terrorists of the Flag-Smashers, likely with lethal force authorized. And he was just in a battle where super-soldiers were trying to kill him, and did kill his friend and partner. It's not terribly different from what soldiers sometimes do in warzones, and it's even lampshaded in the episode when Walker and Hoskins are discussing the ethics of taking the serum and reference the "things they actually did" to earn their medals.

The government of Latvia isn't likely to be happy with the situation, but I doubt they'll try to arrest and try Walker. The government of the guy Walker killed, likewise. I think that's a reaction I'd expect from real-world governments in similar situations.


----------



## Morrus

Dire Bare said:


> The government of Latvia isn't likely to be happy with the situation, but I doubt they'll try to arrest and try Walker. The government of the guy Walker killed, likewise. I think that's a reaction I'd expect from real-world governments in similar situations.



That's just not how things work. Soldiers don't get to rampage around the world decapitating people, whatever the movies tell you. I promise you.

No, this is a clear narrative signal he's gone bad. Dunno if he'll go full rogue, but he's a bad guy now (maybe _the_ bad guy of the show?) Falcon and Bucky will now be opposed to him, and can't not be. I feel like he's more the focus than, say, Power Broker, who is kinda just a background McGuffin to this story.



> No, it's not a warzone. But Walker is a soldier and agent of the U.S. military, and the GRC. He's authorized to hunt down and deal with the terrorists of the Flag-Smashers, likely with lethal force authorized.




Authorised by who?

(Of course, the international legal status of superheroes is glossed over in comics, for good reasons -- but this guy is more a soldier than a superhero)

The only valid authorization I can think of offhand would be the Sekovia (sp?) Accords, which are, I think, an international treaty? I guess maybe that does authorize him in Latvia, and if they say so in the show, I'll hold up my hands and admit I was wrong. But I don't think that's where this show is taking this.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> The only valid authorization I can think of offhand would be the Sekovia (sp?) Accords, which are, I think, an international treaty? I guess maybe that does authorize him in Latvia, and if they say so in the show, I'll hold up my hands and admit I was wrong. But I don't think that's where this show is taking this.




A big problem we have in trying to guess or figure this out is we do not have enough information yet about all the changes to the world order that happened in the 5 years half the population was missing. Sure, there are references or hints here and there, but the fact Walker leads GRC police/troops? on these raiding missions says a lot about which country seems to have the most control over this international body. If the GRC is like the UN, but more militarized, the majority of the world's countries would have had to approve it and it's global authority, similar to how the Sokovia Accords had to be approved by the world's governments. So maybe he will have to go before a World Court or something similar to what we have in the real world?


----------



## Morrus

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> A big problem we have in trying to guess or figure this out is we do not have enough information yet about all the changes to the world order that happened in the 5 years half the population was missing. Sure, there are references or hints here and there, but the fact Walker leads GRC police/troops? on these raiding missions says a lot about which country seems to have the most control over this international body. If the GRC is like the UN, but more militarized, the majority of the world's countries would have had to approve it and it's global authority, similar to how the Sokovia Accords had to be approved by the world's governments. So maybe he will have to go before a World Court or something similar to what we have in the real world?



I guess? Its kinda unclear. I figure we'll find out in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## tomBitonti

Morrus said:


> I mean, clearly the show thinks it’s wrong. That’s what the audience of phone cameras is for. I don’t know the character from Adam, but he’s very clearly telegraphed narratively as going bad due to the serum. There’s no grey wiggle room there. Unless there’s some weird twist coming, that’s the story they’re telling here.
> 
> (then again, Marvel doesn’t think Wanda is a supervillain, so what do I know?)



Was the breakdown due to the serum?  The serum may have helped to push him over the edge, but he seemed to be about to break even without the serum.  What the serum did was to keep him in the fight.  The serum made the fall deeper.
TomB


----------



## Dire Bare

Morrus said:


> That's just not how things work. Soldiers don't get to rampage around the world decapitating people, whatever the movies tell you. I promise you.
> 
> No, this is a clear narrative signal he's gone bad. Dunno if he'll go full rogue, but he's a bad guy now (maybe _the_ bad guy of the show?) Falcon and Bucky will now be opposed to him, and can't not be. I feel like he's more the focus than, say, Power Broker, who is kinda just a background McGuffin to this story.
> 
> 
> 
> Authorised by who?
> 
> (Of course, the international legal status of superheroes is glossed over in comics, for good reasons -- but this guy is more a soldier than a superhero)
> 
> The only valid authorization I can think of offhand would be the Sekovia (sp?) Accords, which are, I think, an international treaty? I guess maybe that does authorize him in Latvia, and if they say so in the show, I'll hold up my hands and admit I was wrong. But I don't think that's where this show is taking this.



Walker is a US soldier, but he's also an agent of the international organization, the GRC, which seems to be a stand-in for an amped-up UN. I've begun to notice a symbol associated with the GRC in the end-credits, an eye within a triangle . . . .

Walker is an authorized anti-terrorist agent of an international governmental organization with policing powers, working in concert with local authorities. We don't quite have that in the real-world . . . but if we had soldiers working within an intergovernmental task force to hunt down and thwart terrorists by any means necessary . . . we come close to that, and it's not hard to imagine such a thing coming together.

Right now we have soldiers (US, European, and others) in developing countries doing good things . . . . and bad things like Walker. For this sort of violence to migrate into the more developed nations . . . isn't a huge stretch, IMO. The rise of fascism and nationalism world-wide, the rise of immigration, and anti-immigration sentiment (very much paralleled by the grievances of the Flag-Smashers) . . . .

It's also not unprecedented in genre literature and films. This whole series isn't really in the spy genre . . . but it borrows a lot of tropes and feels from those types of stories. Walker is like an a-hole version of James Bond, licensed to kill.


----------



## Morrus

tomBitonti said:


> Was the breakdown due to the serum?  The serum may have helped to push him over the edge, but he seemed to be about to break even without the serum.  What the serum did was to keep him in the fight.  The serum made the fall deeper.
> TomB



I feel like the theme of the show is that the serum breaks people.


----------



## Morrus

Dire Bare said:


> Walker is an authorized anti-terrorist agent of an international governmental organization with policing powers, working in concert with local authorities.



Is he? I mean, I'm not saying he's not, and that organization isn't that, but if he is, and it is, the show has not made that clear to me.


Dire Bare said:


> Walker is like an a-hole version of James Bond, licensed to kill.



Yeah Bond's license to kill. That's equally silly. If MI6 sent an agent to America with a 'license to kill' ... I seem to remember cops chasing Bond a lot when he went to America.



(But of course, if we all agree it's just silly, we're good. It's just that people seem to be arguing it's realistic).


----------



## tomBitonti

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Not Patriot. That is the name used in the comic books by Isaiah's grandson, after he gets a blood transfusion from his grandfather and becomes superpowered, and then joins the Young Avengers. And the Young Avengers is something a lot of people are guessing is being set up for either Disney+ or as a series of movies. Several of the members have been introduced or teased in future shows so far.
> 
> As for Walker, we know in the real world that people can black out from fear or anger/rage or from drinking to much, and do things they have no idea they are doing. Maybe he was in a blackout rage and won't get the full punishment the world will think he deserves. It can be the difference between 1st degree murder and 3rd degree manslaughter. This show was filmed many months ago, but we have that high profile murder trial going on right now, with similarities. Sort of eerie that we are getting the show and the trial at the same time.



In regards to the current trial, that seems to be about casual brutalilty; an indifference to suffering and harm.

Walker’s rage seems to be an entirely different creature.

If I were deploying assets I would give Walker a hard pass unless the situation was truly desperate.  Uncontrollable soldiers are not forces a commander wants, unless they actually want uncontrolled butchery.

TomB


----------



## Dire Bare

Morrus said:


> Is he? I mean, I'm not saying he's not, and that organization isn't that, but if he is, and it is, the show has not made that clear to me.
> 
> Yeah Bond's license to kill. That's equally silly. If MI6 sent an agent to America with a 'license to kill' ... I seem to remember cops chasing Bond a lot when he went to America.
> 
> 
> 
> (But of course, if we all agree it's just silly, we're good. It's just that people seem to be arguing it's realistic).



It's in that nebulous land between realistic and silly genre trope. James Bond does not represent the reality of international spying, certainly. Superheroes aren't real either.

But both types of stories take place in the real world, and comment on real issues and concerns of the day (when they were made), even if at times they get a little silly.

What Walker did with that shield MIGHT not work out all that well for him in the real world today . . . . but the real world of tomorrow? I don't think it's much of a stretch, or all that silly.


----------



## Dire Bare

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Not Patriot. That is the name used in the comic books by Isaiah's grandson, after he gets a blood transfusion from his grandfather and becomes superpowered, and then joins the Young Avengers. And the Young Avengers is something a lot of people are guessing is being set up for either Disney+ or as a series of movies. Several of the members have been introduced or teased in future shows so far.
> 
> As for Walker, we know in the real world that people can black out from fear or anger/rage or from drinking to much, and do things they have no idea they are doing. Maybe he was in a blackout rage and won't get the full punishment the world will think he deserves. It can be the difference between 1st degree murder and 3rd degree manslaughter. This show was filmed many months ago, but we have that high profile murder trial going on right now, with similarities. Sort of eerie that we are getting the show and the trial at the same time.



I was thinking Super-Patriot, John Walker's original alias in the comics. I do hope we see Elijah Bradley's Patriot at some point not too far away!

_EDIT: I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, but . . . there's a LOT of Captain America alternates in Marvel history! Bring them all together into a Captain America super-squad, the Captains America!_


----------



## Stalker0

billd91 said:


> Mind control is relatively subtle and it wasn’t done maliciously. It’s unlikely anyone is going to consider it anywhere near as severe as executing a guy in public.



The mind control was so strong Rambaeu described it as "torture" (which her superior called her on before he did his heel turn). It was so strong the people noted at the end that they were starting to forget their original memories.

It wasn't malicious, but Wanda also didn't do a finger to help the people either. She literally took them out of it and then peaced out, no public apology, no attempt to help them rebuild their lives, just....gone.

Its not murder, but its a far cry from a guilt less crime.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> No, it isn't "clearly" wrong.
> 
> Zemo had his family killed by the actions of superheroes.  Superheroes created a monster, and then countless people were hurt before they could stop it.  That is something a rational person can look at and say, "Yeah, superheroes are a bad idea."



No, that wouldn’t be rational. A scientist created a monster that _required_ the Avengers as a whole to defeat. If Tony wasn’t an Avenger, he still would have all the tools needed to make Ultron, and the same trauma potentially leading him to think he needs to do so. 
And even if we ignore that, and we rationally cannot, it certainly wouldn’t outweigh all the threats that are in no way created by superheroes that require superheroes to address


Umbran said:


> A rational person can also say that superheroes are a good idea, as they were required to save half the people in the universe... but that point is weakened by how poorly the world is managing their return, such that the return is not an unalloyed good.



The point isn’t weakened at all by how governments are failing their people after the fact. They are two wholly separate things. 


More on Zemo, and the idea that the Avengers killed his family.
 If I drive a car normally, at the speed limit, in normal conditions, it having undergone normal upkeep, and a defective axle or other part causes the front right wheel to fly off and hit someone, killing them, it is absurd to claim that I am responsible for that death. Tony and Bruce built an AI to run a defensive system to help defend against a second alien invasion. Had it not gone pretty damn randomly haywire, it would have helped immensely with Thanos.   There was no reasonable expectation for them to know that an AI based on Jarvis would come out a psychotic murder-bot.


----------



## Older Beholder

The show continues to exceed my expectations. Wyatt Russel is doing an amazing job as John Walker. I’m finding him a far more interesting Captain America than Steve Rogers. I hope he sticks around for future shows/movies.

This series has also finally made me understand why Bucky is such a popular character, which I never really got from watching the movies. 
Also I think it’s doing a good job of showing that Sam is the right person to hold the shield.


----------



## Older Beholder

Morrus said:


> (then again, Marvel doesn’t think Wanda is a supervillain, so what do I know?)




I‘m pretty sure I’ve heard she’s going to be the villain in Dr Strange Multiverse of Madness.


----------



## tomBitonti

Morrus said:


> I feel like the theme of the show is that the serum breaks people.



I prefer the idea that the serum amplifies what is already there.  Walker was already fractured.  The break was there just not expressed.  The serum brought the break to the surface and amplified it.  I imagine Walker was broken by His actions in his prior service.  That he had counseling by the same doctor who is treating Bucky is to me strong evidence of an existing break.
Thanks!
TomB


----------



## ShinHakkaider

doctorbadwolf said:


> If I drive a car normally, at the speed limit, in normal conditions, it having undergone normal upkeep, and a defective axle or other part causes the front right wheel to fly off and hit someone, killing them, it is absurd to claim that I am responsible for that death. Tony and Bruce built an AI to run a defensive system to help defend against a second alien invasion. Had it not gone pretty damn randomly haywire, it would have helped immensely with Thanos.   There was no reasonable expectation for them to know that an AI based on Jarvis would come out a psychotic murder-bot.



Youre Right. 

If you're the owner of the car, no one would reasonably hold you responsible.

But if you're the manufacturer? YES, You would absolutely be held responsible. 

And Tony, SPECIFICALLY knew that he was taking a big risk in incorporating what he found in at Strucker's base into his Iron Legion Protocol to create Ultron. 

Banner: So youre going for artificial intelligence and you dont want to tell the team?

Stark: Right. That's Right. You know why? Because we dont have time for a city hall debate. 
I dont want to hear the "man was not meant to meddle" medley. 

Tony was doing what he was doing for the right reason but he knew it was risky and problematic which is why he didnt want to tell everyone else.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

tomBitonti said:


> I prefer the idea that the serum amplifies what is already there.  Walker was already fractured.  The break was there just not expressed.  The serum brought the break to the surface and amplified it.  I imagine Walker was broken by His actions in his prior service.  That he had counseling by the same doctor who is treating Bucky is to me strong evidence of an existing break.
> Thanks!
> TomB



Not only that but the conversation he has with Lamar after the Dora Milaje fight. 
It's pretty strongly stated that some of the things they did in Afghanistan when they served together left a mark on their souls, Walker in particular. 

Lamar: You already have three Medals of Honor. You consistently make the right decisions in the heat of battle. 

Walker: Yep. Three badges of excellence to make sure I never forget the worst day of my life. 

Walker: We both know that the things that we had to do in Afghanistan to be awarded those medals felt a long way from being right. Being Cap is the first time I've had the chance to do something that actually FEELS right. 

Upon a third rewatch of the episode i just focused on Walker and his interactions with everyone else.
I still don't agree with how he conducts himself but I understand WHY he is the way he is and I don't think that he's necessarily a bad person. Just a deeply flawed one. You get the sense that whatever he and Lamar went through was BAD and changed him. 

Also, Lamar, his battle buddy, was the only person who knew him and trusted enough to keep him centered. Lamar was probably his best friend and his moral compass. And that was taken away from him. 

The Walker we see post-murder is going to be an interesting one indeed.


----------



## tomBitonti

ShinHakkaider said:


> Youre Right.
> 
> If you're the owner of the car, no one would reasonably hold you responsible.
> 
> But if you're the manufacturer? YES, You would absolutely be held responsible.
> 
> And Tony, SPECIFICALLY knew that he was taking a big risk in incorporating what he found in at Strucker's base into his Iron Legion Protocol to create Ultron.
> 
> Banner: So youre going for artificial intelligence and you dont want to tell the team?
> 
> Stark: Right. That's Right. You know why? Because we dont have time for a city hall debate.
> I dont want to hear the "man was not meant to meddle" medley.
> 
> Tony was doing what he was doing for the right reason but he knew it was risky and problematic which is why he didnt want to tell everyone else.



Wasn’t Tony manipulated by Wanda?  His fears were amplified and he was given a strong push.  A claim can be made that he wasn’t entirely of a right mind when he made Ultron.
TomB


----------



## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> No, that wouldn’t be rational.




Well, we disagree on that.  



doctorbadwolf said:


> A scientist created a monster that _required_ the Avengers as a whole to defeat.
> If Tony wasn’t an Avenger, he still would have all the tools needed to make Ultron




No.  If he wasn't an Avenger, he wouldn't have ad access to the Mind Stone.  And he applied it without sufficient understanding, protections, oversight, or control.  

This happens due to Stark's poorly managed anxieties, which bring him to seek control and power over his environment - it is a strong example of Zemo's point that people seeking power are a problem, I'm sorry to say.  

Not allowing people driven by fear seek power... is pretty darned rational.  Sorry.


----------



## Umbran

tomBitonti said:


> Wasn’t Tony manipulated by Wanda?  His fears were amplified and he was given a strong push.  A claim can be made that he wasn’t entirely of a right mind when he made Ultron.
> TomB




Okay.  We can chew that over.  

What are the implications of this?  Even if we lift some of the ethical responsibility off Stark, personally, we have... Johann Schmidt seeks power, gets Super-soldier serum, creates Hydra.  HYDRA activates a super-powered individual (Wanda), who then makes another super-powered person (Stark) seek power, building another super-powered being (Ultron) and that brings great harm.

What in that says that Zemo is wrong?  The root is still "people seeking super-powers should not be allowed to have them".


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> No.  If he wasn't an Avenger, he wouldn't have ad access to the Mind Stone.  And he applied it without sufficient understanding, protections, oversight, or control.



Sure, not like any...non-superhero scientists...ever had access to it...waaait. 


Umbran said:


> This happens due to Stark's poorly managed anxieties, which bring him to seek control and power over his environment - it is a strong example of Zemo's point that people seeking power are a problem, I'm sorry to say.



No, it isn’t. 


Umbran said:


> Not allowing people driven by fear seek power... is pretty darned rational.  Sorry.



It’s impossible, is what it is. No one has any control over what emotional states drive people to strive toward really any goal. This is also moving the goalposts from Zemo’s position in the MCU.


----------



## tomBitonti

Umbran said:


> Okay.  We can chew that over.
> 
> What are the implications of this?  Even if we lift some of the ethical responsibility off Stark, personally, we have... Johann Schmidt seeks power, gets Super-soldier serum, creates Hydra.  HYDRA activates a super-powered individual (Wanda), who then makes another super-powered person (Stark) seek power, building another super-powered being (Ultron) and that brings great harm.
> 
> What in that says that Zemo is wrong?  The root is still "people seeking super-powers should not be allowed to have them".



I think Zeno he has incomplete information, and is correct working from that incomplete information.  I expect that almost no-one knows Wanda’s involvement.  But, his focus on super soldiers seems overstated.  Zemo was anti-Avengers, with super soldiers being just one example of what he is against.
Thanks!
TomB


----------



## ShinHakkaider

tomBitonti said:


> Wasn’t Tony manipulated by Wanda?  His fears were amplified and he was given a strong push.  A claim can be made that he wasn’t entirely of a right mind when he made Ultron.
> TomB



You can argue that she amplified his fear, which pushed him to take the actions that he took. But at what point can you claim that he was a puppet and what point can you claim he's responsible for his actions? I'll give you the fact that he was already suffering from PTSD from the Battle of NY and that Wanda's Vision of his dead friends and an Earth being invaded probably lit a fire under him in a way that wasn't there before. 

But making the decision NOT to inform his teammates what he was about to do? THAT was all Tony's own hubris.


----------



## BRayne

Tony also was already planning on creating Ultron, he had just hit a wall on what AI he could make were capable of and the mind stone was the first opportunity to break through that.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

tomBitonti said:


> I think Zeno he has incomplete information, and is correct working from that incomplete information.  I expect that almost no-one knows Wanda’s involvement.  But, his focus on super soldiers seems overstated.  Zemo was anti-Avengers, with super soldiers being just one example of what he is against.
> Thanks!
> TomB



Your first and second sentences are spot on. 

But while he was anti-Avengers in CIVIL WAR, tool he used to extract his vengeance were in fact Super-Soldiers (Bucky and Steve).

He framed one in order to draw him out to get intelligence about the others AND what really happened to Tony's parents. After uncovering the location of the other Super Soldiers from Bucky he went there but made CERTAIN to leave enough breadcrumbs behind so that he'd be followed there. 

And he got the best possible outcome because three of the people who followed him there were exactly the people he needed to be there to inflict maximum damage.

But honestly at that point it wouldn't have mattered WHO showed up. Even If it was Thunderbolt Ross who would have showed up with a bunch of JSOC guys? They would have found a bunch of dead super soldiers and the tape of Bucky murdering Tony's parents. Which Ross would have surely made sure Tony saw. Tony puts two and two together goes after Steve AND Bucky.

No, it's safe to say while Zemo doesn't like the idea of super soldiers so far they've been his most effective tool to achieving his goals, hence his fixation on them.


----------



## Umbran

tomBitonti said:


> I think Zeno he has incomplete information, and is correct working from that incomplete information.  I expect that almost no-one knows Wanda’s involvement.  But, his focus on super soldiers seems overstated.  Zemo was anti-Avengers, with super soldiers being just one example of what he is against.




Yes, well, super soldiers are a thing he can get a handle on.  They are a part of (what he sees as) the problem he can conceivably deal with.  And, as noted, if he can use them as weapons against each other, all the better.


----------



## Rune

On a slightly different topic, we’ve got two episodes left to find out if Zemo goes after Isaiah Bradley. He was definitely listening while Sam and Bucky talked about him on the jet. 

Also, if Old Cap is still alive and Zemo finds out, he’ll probably want to finish him off, too. Zemo on the loose is bad news.


----------



## Umbran

Rune said:


> On a slightly different topic, we’ve got two episodes left to find out if Zemo goes after Isaiah Bradley. He was definitely listening while Sam and Bucky talked about him on the jet.
> 
> Also, if Old Cap is still alive and Zemo finds out, he’ll probably want to finish him off, too. Zemo on the loose is bad news.




Zemo is a bit of a fanatic, but he seems more than capable of prioritizing.  He works with Bucky, whose existence he despises, to go after what looks like a bigger threat - the Flag Smashers and the serum.  

In terms of threats, I don't think Old Cap and Isaiah are high on the list.  They are old men, inactive.  The threat they represent is only as a source for data to make more serum.  I expect the world will always have enough active super-powered threats for him to be concerned with that the inactive ones will simply die before he gets to them.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## RangerWickett

I appreciated that the show _almost_ got political when Zemo was talking to Sam about needing to stop supers from existing, and Sam could've said something like "You know people with a lot of money have caused more trouble than anyone with super strength has, right?"


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> Yes, well, super soldiers are a thing he can get a handle on.  They are a part of (what he sees as) the problem he can conceivably deal with.  And, as noted, if he can use them as weapons against each other, all the better.



I mean that’s fair but on the other hand, at best he is ignoring all the other threats out there. The Avengers are, as of Civil War, the only people on Earth who could have stopped the alien invasion. Because Hulk can _wrestle_ a living ship the size of an aircraft carrier. That’s terrifying, sure, but it’s objectively, rationally, a good thing that Hulk was around and of a mind to help when the chitauri invaded.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> While that happened in Latvian territory, the man who was killed was not Latvian. The Flag Smashers are certainly classified as a terrorist organization, and their membership as whatever terrorist and/or enemy combatant rules they have by the EU, which muddies the waters.



Under real world law it's no more legal for a foreign national to murder a terrorist than it is for them to murder an upstanding citizen. "clear and present danger" defence would only apply to local law enforcement.


Umbran said:


> Regardless, Walker brutally killed a man in front of a crowd of cameras.  The rules of engagement are secondary to public opinion concerning the poster boy.



True, but his actions are also clearly illegal and a violation of national sovereignty. Not that the USA doesn't do that sometimes (e.g. murder of Bin Laden in Pakistan), but not when the country is an EU member state.


----------



## Tonguez

Paul Farquhar said:


> Under real world law it's no more okay for a foreign national to murder a terrorist than it is for them to murder an upstanding citizen. "clear and present danger" defence would only apply to local law enforcement.
> 
> True, but his actions are also clearly illegal and a violation of national sovereignty. Not that the USA doesn't do that sometimes, but not when the country is an EU member state.




In the post-Blip world we dont even know if the EU still exists, what we do know is that the GRC is an International Organisation that helps navigate the changes in society and borders AND that Walker works for the GRC apparently with Policing Authority.




> _"The Global Repatriation Council knows that for many it wasn’t that easy. So much has changed. But we’re here to help you find your way. Helping you back into your homes and jobs. Helping you navigate changes to society, laws, and borders. Helping you get back to the way things were.”_



_Unfortunately, I doubt Marvel Studios is ever going to explain its international politics in any great detail and that we’ll be left ever trying to glean just what it going on_


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Tonguez said:


> In the post-Blip world we dont even know if the EU still exists, what we do know is that the GRC is an International Organisation that helps navigate the changes in society and borders AND that Walker works for the GRC apparently with Policing Authority.
> 
> 
> 
> _Unfortunately, I doubt Marvel Studios is ever going to explain its international politics in any great detail and that we’ll be left ever trying to glean just what it going on_



I'm not sure the writers have even realised Latvia is in the EU, and therefore anyone from an EU member state has every right to be there - they are not foreign nationals or illegal immigrants.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

tomBitonti said:


> Wasn’t Tony manipulated by Wanda?  His fears were amplified and he was given a strong push.  A claim can be made that he wasn’t entirely of a right mind when he made Ultron.
> TomB



No. Both Wanda and Tony insist she showed him a vision, not a fabrication. Which makes a lot more sense with her powers retconned to be magic.


----------



## hopeless

She played on his fears and those fears created the situation that inspired him to create Ultron once he had access to the mind stone.
So it may have been a vision, but that vision was very flawed.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

hopeless said:


> She played on his fears and those fears created the situation that inspired him to create Ultron once he had access to the mind stone.
> So it may have been a vision, but that vision was very flawed.



Wanda's visions are accurate. Steve goes back to the past. Asgard is destroyed. The Avengers are destroyed and the shield smashed. The creation of Ultron is an entirely rational defence against the threat of Thanos, and would have been effective had it not been for a random glitch. It had to fail only because Wanda's visions are inescapable. She is the Scarlet Witch.


----------



## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> I mean that’s fair but on the other hand, at best he is ignoring all the other threats out there. The Avengers are, as of Civil War, the only people on Earth who could have stopped the alien invasion.




Yeah.  But, why did that invasion happen?  Because Loki... wants power.  So, again, Zemo is not wrong.

So, I seem to be arguing _for_ Zemo.  The thing is that, in a major way, he is right - all he is really arguing is that _power corrupts_, and if that isn't a strict truism, it is true enough of the time in our normal daily lives to cause great misery to humankind.  So, finding a flaw in his argument in that regard is going to fail.

The flaws in his position are rather practical.

1) Power happens.  In the MCU, human (and non-human) technology and understanding have power as natural byproducts.  Unless he forces Earth back into the Stone Age, it is something that has to be managed, because it cannot be eradicated.  

2) Power exists.  Asgardians.  Titans. Skrull.  Kree.  Eternals.  Inhumans.  The MCU galaxy/universe is filled with people who are _naturally_ more powerful than humans.  Unless he wants humans to be eternally victims of those others, humans have to harness power - and that means letting people have it.

These facts make his desire to eradicate supers quixotic and unwise.  Superpowers and their application need to be managed, just like everything else in human existence.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> Wanda's visions are accurate. Steve goes back to the past. Asgard is destroyed. The Avengers are destroyed and the shield smashed. The creation of Ultron is an entirely rational defence against the threat of Thanos, and would have been effective had it not been for a random glitch.




There was no random glitch.  That Ultron came out like he did was implicit in the initial programming underlying the project.  Stark's motives, unfortunately, are flawed.  They were flawed before Wanda gets to him. 

Steve Rogers makes this clear - "Every time someone tries to win a war before it starts, someone dies.  Every time."

Wanda helps ensure _when_ it happens, but is not herself the root cause.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> Yeah.  But, why did that invasion happen?  Because Loki... wants power.  So, again, Zemo is not wrong.
> 
> So, I seem to be arguing _for_ Zemo.  The thing is that, in a major way, he is right - all he is really arguing is that _power corrupts_, and if that isn't a strict truism, it is true enough of the time in our normal daily lives to cause great misery to humankind.  So, finding a flaw in his argument in that regard is going to fail.
> 
> The flaws in his position are rather practical.
> 
> 1) Power happens.  In the MCU, human (and non-human) technology and understanding have power as natural byproducts.  Unless he forces Earth back into the Stone Age, it is something that has to be managed, because it cannot be eradicated.
> 
> 2) Power exists.  Asgardians.  Titans. Skrull.  Kree.  Eternals.  Inhumans.  The MCU galaxy/universe is filled with people who are _naturally_ more powerful than humans.  Unless he wants humans to be eternally victims of those others, humans have to harness power - and that means letting people have it.
> 
> These facts make his desire to eradicate supers quixotic and unwise.  Superpowers and their application need to be managed, just like everything else in human existence.



Right. Like I said, he is ignoring all the threats that exists regardless of supers. And the invasion would have happened eventually regardless of Loki, and Loki himself is a prince god thing. 

My argument is that it is simply irrational to actively try to get rid of superheroes in a world where most of the things they fight are not from a source they or anyone else on Earth could have prevented. Understandable for Zemo, who lost his entire nation due to the scientific recklessness of a modern day Frankenstein who then remained an Avenger, but it’s still irrational.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> There was no random glitch.  That Ultron came out like he did was implicit in the initial programming underlying the project.  Stark's motives, unfortunately, are flawed.  They were flawed before Wanda gets to him.
> 
> Steve Rogers makes this clear - "Every time someone tries to win a war before it starts, someone dies.  Every time."
> 
> Wanda helps ensure _when_ it happens, but is not herself the root cause.



Well, not quite. That Ultron would be dangerous was intentional. Jarvis is dangerous. Vision is dangerous. Ultron obviously wasn’t supposed to be psychotic, that part is very much a bad luck plot device. Maybe one that a more careful Tony would have avoided, but maybe not. We will never know.


----------



## MarkB

doctorbadwolf said:


> Well, not quite. That Ultron would be dangerous was intentional. Jarvis is dangerous. Vision is dangerous. Ultron obviously wasn’t supposed to be psychotic, that part is very much a bad luck plot device. Maybe one that a more careful Tony would have avoided, but maybe not. We will never know.



What Tony programmed Ultron for was world peace. And Ultron looked at the data, and quickly realised that world peace wasn't obtainable so long as human nature was a factor. Plus he took on board Tony's self-loathing, which in him manifested as a loathing of the Avengers.

Unforeseen consequences of Tony's flawed programming. But not accidental, not just bad luck.


----------



## hopeless

And I assumed that AI came about because of the mind stone and that instability came about because of the mind stone.
Though given originally Ultron was the result of Hank Pym's own personal instabilities rather than Tony's.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

MarkB said:


> What Tony programmed Ultron for was world peace. And Ultron looked at the data, and quickly realised that world peace wasn't obtainable so long as human nature was a factor. Plus he took on board Tony's self-loathing, which in him manifested as a loathing of the Avengers.
> 
> Unforeseen consequences of Tony's flawed programming. But not accidental, not just bad luck.



I strongly disagree. It’s either a very edgelord plot device decision by the writers, or a programming glitch in the mixing of elements that make up Ultron’s psyche. 

Also IIRC the mindstone activating the completion of Ultron wasn’t really a foreseeable or intentional occurrence.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

hopeless said:


> And I assumed that AI came about because of the mind stone and that instability came about because of the mind stone.



The mind stone is not inherently evil or unstable. Vision's soul comes from the mind stone and he was neither.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> What Tony programmed Ultron for was world peace.




Tony made one of the classic blunders - like getting into a land war in Asia, and going in against a Sicilian when death is on the line:  assuming that peace comes through superior firepower.


----------



## billd91

Paul Farquhar said:


> The mind stone is not inherently evil or unstable. Vision's soul comes from the mind stone and he was neither.



He’s also the Jarvis personality. The fact that Tony made Jarvis (presumably) means he has the capacity to make a good AI. But Jarvis was made at a time when Tony wasn‘t suffering from the PTSD he developed and paranoia about being invaded from space. Nor was Jarvis made with the grandiose scope he planned for Ultron. Ultron is a massive project Tony was no longer in a frame of mind to complete safely or successfully.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> The mind stone is not inherently evil or unstable. Vision's soul comes from the mind stone and he was neither.




"Soul," is a pretty fraught word.  His _animus_ comes from the Stone, Stark/Ultron, _and Mjollnir_.

It should have come as no surprise that Vision could lift the hammer, when he was activated in part by a magical force that is dedicated primarily to _worthiness_ to wield power.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I want to point out a line spoken by Ayo in episode 4:



> The Dora Milaje have jurisdiction wherever the Dora Mileje find themselves to be.




No one seems to have even blinked an eye at this, while if anyone else in the show had said this about themselves or their organization, there would be a big uproar. Imagine if Walker had said that about himself or the GRC. I think this also ties into the overall theme of bias and racism that has happened so far. Some Wakandans do tend to look down on the rest of the world, and the other races, and think themselves superior. This kind of disrespect for the outside world and the laws that are not their own makes them just a mirror image of other supremacist groups. The only thing they may not have in common is the hate. And you can bet that if Ayo kills Zemo in a fight, or murders him as he is trying to surrender again, that she would never let herself be arrested by the local authorities.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I want to point out a line spoken by Ayo in episode 4:
> 
> 
> 
> No one seems to have even blinked an eye at this, while if anyone else in the show had said this about themselves or their organization, there would be a big uproar. Imagine if Walker had said that about himself or the GRC. I think this also ties into the overall theme of bias and racism that has happened so far. Some Wakandans do tend to look down on the rest of the world, and the other races, and think themselves superior. This kind of disrespect for the outside world and the laws that are not their own makes them just a mirror image of other supremacist groups. The only thing they may not have in common is the hate. And you can bet that if Ayo kills Zemo in a fight, or murders him as he is trying to surrender again, that she would never let herself be arrested by the local authorities.



Except that, when King T'Challa led a Dora Milaje operation to take down the criminal Ulysses Klaue during an illegal Vibranium sale, that operation ended in exactly that situation. Klaue surrendered in a crowded square surrounded by witnesses with cameras. And T'Challa backed down and allowed Klaue to be taken into UN custody.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

MarkB said:


> Except that, when King T'Challa led a Dora Milaje operation to take down the criminal Ulysses Klaue during an illegal Vibranium sale, that operation ended in exactly that situation. Klaue surrendered in a crowded square surrounded by witnesses with cameras. And T'Challa backed down and allowed Klaue to be taken into UN custody.



I think this illustrates an important distinction. The DM aren’t a supremacist group, they’re more like the CIA during the Cold War. They just don’t care about any authority but their own.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I want to point out a line spoken by Ayo in episode 4:
> 
> 
> 
> No one seems to have even blinked an eye at this, while if anyone else in the show had said this about themselves or their organization, there would be a big uproar. Imagine if Walker had said that about himself or the GRC. I think this also ties into the overall theme of bias and racism that has happened so far. Some Wakandans do tend to look down on the rest of the world, and the other races, and think themselves superior. This kind of disrespect for the outside world and the laws that are not their own makes them just a mirror image of other supremacist groups. The only thing they may not have in common is the hate. And you can bet that if Ayo kills Zemo in a fight, or murders him as he is trying to surrender again, that she would never let herself be arrested by the local authorities.



Are you seriously doing the "reverse racism" thing with the Wakandans here? 

When it was T'Challa who clearly at the end of CA: Civil War not only stops Zemo from committing suicide but also turns Zemo BACK over to the authorities? 

When in BLACK PANTHER when T'Challa wanted to kill Klaw he was stopped by Okoye and Nakia and AGAIN handed over to international authority led, in this case, by Everett K Ross?

Where in the dialog in ANY of these movies or series have the Wakandans looked down on anyone because of race? Go ahead. I'll WAIT. 

Their bias is/was against the OUTSIDE WORLD period. They had no use for ANYONE outside of their own which was a major crux of the conflict in BLACK PANTHER. Killmonger calls them out on this at least twice in that movie and he's not white last time I checked. 

And Walker? He didnt HAVE TO say that same thing. HE WAS ALREADY DOING IT. 

Ayo would never kill Zemo in a fight because she's probably under orders to either return Zemo to his cell or to bring him to Wakanda to stand trial for the murder of their king. 

Nice try attempting to paint Wakandans as racist though. If you'd said protectionist I'd have WHOLEHEARTEDLY agreed with you. As that is the only thing that kept them from being enslaved with most of their African brethren on the continent. But some thing tells me you're not ready to talk about that.


----------



## Staffan

Umbran said:


> Tony made one of the classic blunders - like getting into a land war in Asia, and going in against a Sicilian when death is on the line:  assuming that peace comes through superior firepower.



Yeah, that's been Tony's belief from the get-go. In Iron Man 1, it's "I prefer the weapon you only have to fire once." In Iron Man 2, it's "I privatized world peace!"

Peace will only come from cooperation and understanding. Force is sometimes necessary to prevent and repel force, but that is an unstable situation unless you go so far as to exterminate the other side.



billd91 said:


> He’s also the Jarvis personality. The fact that Tony made Jarvis (presumably) means he has the capacity to make a good AI. But Jarvis was made at a time when Tony wasn‘t suffering from the PTSD he developed and paranoia about being invaded from space. Nor was Jarvis made with the grandiose scope he planned for Ultron. Ultron is a massive project Tony was no longer in a frame of mind to complete safely or successfully.




Yeah, Jarvis can do tactics and operation, but not strategy.



MarkB said:


> Except that, when King T'Challa led a Dora Milaje operation to take down the criminal Ulysses Klaue during an illegal Vibranium sale, that operation ended in exactly that situation. Klaue surrendered in a crowded square surrounded by witnesses with cameras. And T'Challa backed down and allowed Klaue to be taken into UN custody.




This was before Wakanda revealed their might to the outside world, so it was not so much "We respect their jurisdiction over this matter" as "This would be a PR disaster." In contrast, the Dora Milaje we see in F&WS are acting out of the public eye, and thus feel entitled to act entirely in their own interests in apprehending the assassin responsible for their former king's death.


----------



## MarkB

Staffan said:


> This was before Wakanda revealed their might to the outside world, so it was not so much "We respect their jurisdiction over this matter" as "This would be a PR disaster." In contrast, the Dora Milaje we see in F&WS are acting out of the public eye, and thus feel entitled to act entirely in their own interests in apprehending the assassin responsible for their former king's death.



Except for the part where they don't just go ahead and grab him, but instead give Bucky and Sam additional time to continue using him in their investigation.


----------



## Zaukrie

Umbran said:


> No, it isn't "clearly" wrong.
> 
> Zemo had his family killed by the actions of superheroes.  Superheroes created a monster, and then countless people were hurt before they could stop it.  That is something a rational person can look at and say, "Yeah, superheroes are a bad idea."
> 
> A rational person can also say that superheroes are a good idea, as they were required to save half the people in the universe... but that point is weakened by how poorly the world is managing their return, such that the return is not an unalloyed good.



Other worlds may be doing better, and the fact one world isn't has no bearing on the good act of saving half the universe.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Zaukrie said:


> Other worlds may be doing better, and the fact one world isn't has no bearing on the good act of saving half the universe.



Not only that, it is obviously good that half the population isn’t dead. To suggest otherwise is...beyond belief.

It would be _even better_ if they’d prevented the blip, but it would also be _even worse_ if they hadn’t reversed it.


----------



## tomBitonti

Zaukrie said:


> Other worlds may be doing better, and the fact one world isn't has no bearing on the good act of saving half the universe.



It is curios that the MCU is continuing to build ambiguity into the blip.  Less nationalism and more cooperation during the blip vs the apparent return to nationalism and displacement camps after.  And the appearance of the apparently badly functioning Global Repatriation Council.
TomB


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

ShinHakkaider said:


> Are you seriously doing the "reverse racism" thing with the Wakandans here?




Amazing how someone can say "some people" and the knee jerk reaction is to ignore that and think every single member of some group is being labeled. Every group has some members who hate members of other groups. To believe otherwise is foolish. And yes, I am keeping that vague on purpose, because there is a line between the politics of the show and the politics of the real world we cannot cross on this forum.


----------



## practicalm

While there is a quote where "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" It may be better to say Power attracts the corruptible.

The super serum will always be attracting those that wish to profit from the power no matter the good intensions. 
The Ultimate Marvel Universe had a lot of people chasing after the super serum and it resulted in the origin of many villains and heroes.

The MCU has Hank Pym who stopped people from using his discoveries and Banner who seemed to be using gamma radiation in work with the serum.   Is it confirmed that Black Widow also had the serum? Hawkeye?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Anyway, staying away from the politics and racial stuff of the show, I went back and rewatched the serum destruction scene a few more times and either Marvel screwed it up or there are still a couple more vials still intact. When Karli falls and the vials spill, of the 12, we clearly see 8 or 9 in the middle of the floor, which are also clearly destroyed by Zemo before he is knocked out. But also clearly in the scene, one vial rolled under the table that was flipped when Karli went over it and one vial was still in the loop in the satchel that was holding them. And then there was the one that rolled to where Walker found it. So what happened to those other two? Is this just a plot hole and we just assume they were destroyed or is someone else going to find and use them? One theory I read is that the next Black Panther will be given one because all the flowers they used to gain their powers were destroyed. So either some other source of power will have to be found for the next Black Panther or they will be purely a high-tech, highly trained crime fighter like Batman. And yes, that one Flag Smasher reported to Karli that they were all destroyed, but he may have picked up the intact ones and then did not tell her the truth because he was not sure if they should be used. And whoever deals with his body will find them and some government will use them instead.

But assuming no more serum, I wonder which of the remaining 6 Flag Smashers will be grabbed by the Power Broker for experiments to try and make more serum?


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> One theory I read is that the next Black Panther will be given one because all the flowers they used to gain their powers were destroyed.



I don’t trust at all that the flowers were actually all destroyed, or that Shuri hadn’t genetically sequenced them in case of blight or other catastrophic loss.


----------



## Staffan

MarkB said:


> Except for the part where they don't just go ahead and grab him, but instead give Bucky and Sam additional time to continue using him in their investigation.



At first yes, but once they enter Zemo's apartment they make it clear that they are there to pick him up and that the goodwill bought by Bucky's friendship with Ayo had run out.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

doctorbadwolf said:


> I don’t trust at all that the flowers were actually all destroyed, or that Shuri hadn’t genetically sequenced them in case of blight or other catastrophic loss.



Pretty sure it was just the current crop that was destroyed. I'm sure there are seeds. Killmonger was only worried about immediate challenges to his kingship, in the long term he wouldn't have wanted to lose access to Wakanda's supersoldier serum.


----------



## Morrus

Is the new serum one-and-done, or do they have to keep taking it?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I went back and rewatched the serum destruction scene a few more times and either Marvel screwed it up or there are still a couple more vials still intact



There might have been a couple more already used.


Enevhar Aldarion said:


> But assuming no more serum, I wonder which of the remaining 6 Flag Smashers will be grabbed by the Power Broker for experiments to try and make more serum?



Karli, says the law of dramatic narrative.

And at least one seems to be already working for the power broker.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Morrus said:


> Is the new serum one-and-done, or do they have to keep taking it?



It appears to be one dose. It may well be reversible though if it resembles the Wakandan version.


----------



## MarkB

So, with all the discussions in this thread about how Zemo's viewpoint on supersoldiers doesn't really hold up, I started to see a couple of the scenes in the last episode in a different light, and wonder whether Zemo's moderating his opinion just a little bit in light of his time with Sam and Bucky.

Exhibit A: In the vial-smashing scene, when he first crouches down to take a vial, the camera cuts away to Karli, who's in cover without line of sight to him. He stands up a moment later with one vial in his hand, but there was time for him to have squirreled a second vial away.

Exhibit B: Afterwards, he asks Sam that "hypothetical" question as to whether he would have taken the serum if it was offered to him.

I have a feeling that question wasn't so hypothetical. It was a test, and Sam passed by saying no. It wouldn't surprise me if Zemo either kept or hid a vial, and is considering administering it to Sam as a contingency if more muscle is needed against the Flag Smashers.

What happened with Walker will no doubt influence that decision.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

Morrus said:


> Is the new serum one-and-done, or do they have to keep taking it?



If it's like all of the other's we've seen thus far it's one and one. But it does seem to be a balance between the Serum+VitaRays of Erskine's method and the blue intravenous liquid given to the Hydra Operatives in CA: CIVIL WAR. 

Mostly I'm guessing due to the time between Walker palmed the serum he found and his capabilities on the next day (or two).


----------



## MarkB

ShinHakkaider said:


> If it's like all of the other's we've seen thus far it's one and one. But it does seem to be a balance between the Serum+VitaRays of Erskine's method and the blue intravenous liquid given to the Hydra Operatives in CA: CIVIL WAR.
> 
> Mostly I'm guessing due to the time between Walker palmed the serum he found and his capabilities on the next day (or two).



Yeah, the delivery method certainly seems to have been refined. Aside from the whole 'vita rays' thing, Steve Rogers had to get separate injections into each major muscle group. Then the Russian Hydra agents get a slow intravenous drip, and the current serum is presumably a simple injection, since Walker must have administered it to himself without any kind of instruction manual.


----------



## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> Not only that, it is obviously good that half the population isn’t dead. To suggest otherwise is...beyond belief.




I didn't say it wasn't good.  I suggested it was not an _unalloyed_ good.  As in, good, but with some negative consequences that one really can't overlook.

Like.. pizza, when you're lactose intolerant.  It is good, but there will be some issues...


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> Is the new serum one-and-done, or do they have to keep taking it?




Context:  In the comics, the serum provided by the Power Broker is permanent, but laced with an addictive compound, so folks who get powers are tied to the Broker.

In these shows, there's no sign of that addictive properly, and there's been no word that they'll need more later.  I'm guessing it is one and done, and at least long-term, if not as long lasting as what Rogers or Isaiah Bradley got.

Nagel did say he "refined" the thing.


----------



## hopeless

I'm still more interested in this series than Wandavision.
I still won't watch this series until I've seen the Black Widow movie.
I know they're probably not going to linked, but that's their problem not mine.
The more I read about this series, the more I'm liking what I'm reading!


----------



## tomBitonti

Umbran said:


> I didn't say it wasn't good.  I suggested it was not an _unalloyed_ good.  As in, good, but with some negative consequences that one really can't overlook.
> 
> Like.. pizza, when you're lactose intolerant.  It is good, but there will be some issues...



Points at self.  "some issues" is a huge understatement.
Enuf said.  Carry on!
TomB


----------



## tomBitonti

MarkB said:


> Yeah, the delivery method certainly seems to have been refined. Aside from the whole 'vita rays' thing, Steve Rogers had to get separate injections into each major muscle group. Then the Russian Hydra agents get a slow intravenous drip, and the current serum is presumably a simple injection, since Walker must have administered it to himself without any kind of instruction manual.



It seems that the effect on Rogers was amplified by the Vita rays.  The current batch of super soldiers don't seem to have been enhanced physically to the same extent.
I can't tell if the Russian supersolders were changed.  They seem to have started bulked out, so it's hard to tell.
TomB


----------



## hopeless

Well they didn't have the same effect as it had on the Red Skull!


----------



## MarkB

tomBitonti said:


> It seems that the effect on Rogers was amplified by the Vita rays.  The current batch of super soldiers don't seem to have been enhanced physically to the same extent.
> I can't tell if the Russian supersolders were changed.  They seem to have started bulked out, so it's hard to tell.
> TomB



That isn't about the Vita rays. The doctor who developed this version of the formula said that he'd designed it to be more refined, without the outward physical changes. It presumably prevents both the Swole effect on Rogers and the red-in-the-face effect on Schmidt.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> That isn't about the Vita rays. The doctor who developed this version of the formula said that he'd designed it to be more refined, without the outward physical changes. It presumably prevents both the Swole effect on Rogers and the red-in-the-face effect on Schmidt.




Let us be clear - that's not really a meaningful thing.  It is there so actors don't have to bulk up to play the roles in the series.


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> Let us be clear - that's not really a meaningful thing.  It is there so actors don't have to bulk up to play the roles in the series.



Or be digitally bulked-down for their pre-serum versions. But just because there's a real-world reason for it, that doesn't make it meaningless to discuss the in-universe implications.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Or be digitally bulked-down for their pre-serum versions. But just because there's a real-world reason for it, that doesn't make it meaningless to discuss the in-universe implications.




The point being, they explicated this to keep people from imagining there are deep implications.  They can now use any reasonably fit actor, without having to put them through months of diet and exercise before putting them on camera, and not have fans go, "What?  How is a super-soldier not built like an Olympic athlete?!?!  This _means something_!1!1!"

Beyond that, I wouldn't expect this to be plot relevant.  In-universe implications that won't ever be seen in the fiction are pretty academic.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> The point being, they explicated this to keep people from imagining there are deep implications.  They can now use any reasonably fit actor, without having to put them through months of diet and exercise before putting them on camera, and not have fans go, "What?  How is a super-soldier not built like an Olympic athlete?!?!  This _means something_!1!1!"
> 
> Beyond that, I wouldn't expect this to be plot relevant.  In-universe implications that won't ever be seen in the fiction are pretty academic.



The in-universe implication is that, without any obvious visual cues, literally anyone could be a supersoldier regardless of appearance. It caught Bucky out the first time he encountered Karli, and it let Walker take the serum without any obvious outward effect. That seems like something that could have longer-term implications.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> The in-universe implication is that, without any obvious visual cues, literally anyone could be a supersoldier regardless of appearance.




But, that was already true.  It isn't like Super Soldiers are giant green brutes, or something obvious.  If you were walking down the street, and saw Chris Evans, you'd not say, "Hey, that's a super soldier!"  Heck, he himself is extremely fit, but not particularly bulky - he has the build of a guy who works out rigorously.  There's millions of them out there.

He gets caught by Karli because he was expecting _men_ to be super-soldiers:  On guy on video, and the couple he saw lifting crates.


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> Beyond that, I wouldn't expect this to be plot relevant.  In-universe implications that won't ever be seen in the fiction are pretty academic.



One implication is that it seems to be getting easier to isolate the serum - Erskine needed to bombard it with Vitarays, Isaiah Bradleys serum killed most of the test subjects, Banner triggered something with major side effects using Gamma rays, HYDRA required a slow drip but Nargles working in a container got it to work via a quick shot/swig with no obvious side effects.

Unless Nargle was some superior genius who is to say who the next person will be able to isolate and use...


----------



## MarkB

Tonguez said:


> One implication is that it seems to be getting easier to isolate the serum - Erskine needed to bombard it with Vitarays, Isaiah Bradleys serum killed most of the test subjects, Banner triggered something with major side effects using Gamma rays, HYDRA required a slow drip but Nargles working in a container got it to work via a quick shot/swig with no obvious side effects.
> 
> Unless Nargle was some superior genius who is to say who the next person will be able to isolate and use...



They'll just start adding it to the water supply like fluoride.


----------



## Maxperson

Sithlord said:


> This series is so disappointing on so many levels.



Yessssss. Use your anger.


----------



## Dire Bare

MarkB said:


> They'll just start adding it to the water supply like fluoride.



Nobody's super if everybody's super!


----------



## Maxperson

Dire Bare said:


> Nobody's super if everybody's super!



That's why I'm super duper.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> But, that was already true.  It isn't like Super Soldiers are giant green brutes, or something obvious.  If you were walking down the street, and saw Chris Evans, you'd not say, "Hey, that's a super soldier!"  Heck, he himself is extremely fit, but not particularly bulky - he has the build of a guy who works out rigorously.  There's millions of them out there.
> 
> He gets caught by Karli because he was expecting _men_ to be super-soldiers:  On guy on video, and the couple he saw lifting crates.



Got to agree here, there's never really been any visual indicators of a super solider, so its unlikely to be a major plot point now. Though with Karli you could at least add in that "scrawny" looking people could now also be super soldiers.



Tonguez said:


> One implication is that it seems to be getting easier to isolate the serum - Erskine needed to bombard it with Vitarays, Isaiah Bradleys serum killed most of the test subjects, Banner triggered something with major side effects using Gamma rays, HYDRA required a slow drip but Nargles working in a container got it to work via a quick shot/swig with no obvious side effects.
> 
> Unless Nargle was some superior genius who is to say who the next person will be able to isolate and use...



Yeah I actually really appreciate the realism of that. The simple truth is, science is going to find a way. Though we can lock the genie back in the bottle for a short time, that genie is getting stronger, and each time its going to get harder to stop the inevitable wave of super soldiers. Its less the question of if it will happen, and more "who will control it?"


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Stalker0 said:


> Yeah I actually really appreciate the realism of that. The simple truth is, science is going to find a way. Though we can lock the genie back in the bottle for a short time, that genie is getting stronger, and each time its going to get harder to stop the inevitable wave of super soldiers. Its less the question of if it will happen, and more "who will control it?"




And we already knew that Nagel and Hydra recreated it with Isaiah's blood. Depending on how viable the serum stays in the blood after a super soldier dies, the Power Broker may not even need a live person, since his people gunned down that one Flag Smasher a couple of episodes ago.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And we already knew that Nagel and Hydra recreated it with Isaiah's blood. Depending on how viable the serum stays in the blood after a super soldier dies, the Power Broker may not even need a live person, since his people gunned down that one Flag Smasher a couple of episodes ago.



And that's assuming that Nagel didn't write down the formula somewhere that it can be recovered from with sufficient decryption software.


----------



## tinaharper

it took me a lot to get used to the new shield wielding cap (or i should say agent US) lol


----------



## hopeless

Until the Black Widow is released I'd like to know what happened to their version of the super soldier serum as Bucky was in their custody and I can't see them letting him be used by Hydra to kill the Starks and not pass a sample across for them to tinker with?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> And that's assuming that Nagel didn't write down the formula somewhere that it can be recovered from with sufficient decryption software.



If we go with the theory that the Power Broker is Sharon Carter (or Mystique disguised as Sharon Carter) then we have to conclude that the Power Broker no longer needed Nagel.


----------



## Morrus

Still waiting for the winter solider though.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

There is also the possibility that Nagel was a front or decoy and is not the true source of the serum.


----------



## Nikosandros

Morrus said:


> Still waiting for the winter solider though.



Is that when Winter is so cold that water vapor freezes solid?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

I'm waiting for the team-up with the Summer Sailor and the Autumn Airman.


----------



## MarkB

I think it's the next character in the Metal Gear series, Solider Snake.


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> One implication is that it seems to be getting easier to isolate the serum - Erskine needed to bombard it with Vitarays, Isaiah Bradleys serum killed most of the test subjects, Banner triggered something with major side effects using Gamma rays, HYDRA required a slow drip but Nargles working in a container got it to work via a quick shot/swig with no obvious side effects.
> 
> Unless Nargle was some superior genius who is to say who the next person will be able to isolate and use...




We should separate between how easy it is to isolate from refinement of it once you've got it.

Nagel says he was recruited by HYRDA for the Winter Soldier program.  Then, when HYDRA largely dissolved in 2014 as a result of events in The Winter Soldier, he was recruited by the CIA.  Only then did he get access to Isaiah's blood.  So, we are talking years of groundwork + access to samples, which doesn't exactly sound "easy".


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> We should separate between how easy it is to isolate from refinement of it once you've got it.
> 
> Nagel says he was recruited by HYRDA for the Winter Soldier program.  Then, when HYDRA largely dissolved in 2014 as a result of events in The Winter Soldier, he was recruited by the CIA.  Only then did he get access to Isaiah's blood.  So, we are talking years of groundwork + access to samples, which doesn't exactly sound "easy".



However, when he returned after the Blip and found that the project had been disbanded, there's no indication that he needed to recover any samples before he went to work for the Power Broker and produced his working serum within weeks. Which suggests that he'd already gone beyond just rebuilding previous versions of the formula, and was able, essentially, to create it from memory with appropriate raw materials.

That does suggest that his self-description as the new Erskine wasn't entirely an idle boast. Having laid the groundwork by studying samples of previous generations of the serum, he was now able to produce and modify it from scratch. It suggests an alternative approach for any future endeavour to reproduce the formula - instead of trying to reverse-engineer it from existing subjects, find someone who's already done the analysis and steal their notes.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Which suggests that he'd already gone beyond just rebuilding previous versions of the formula, and was able, essentially, to create it from memory with appropriate raw materials.




Yes, well, remember, he didn't live through those five years.  To him, he was working on the project just days ago. Of course it was still clearly remembered.



MarkB said:


> That does suggest that his self-description as the new Erskine wasn't entirely an idle boast.




So, interesting factoid - in the comics, "Nagel" was a fake name Erskine used while fleeing from the Red Skull before he got to work on Steve Rogers.  After Erskine was killed, an assistant on the project picked up that name to carry on the work... that eventually led to Isaiah Bradley's serum.

I am perfectly willing to accept that the MCU Nagel was, in fact, a fantastic genius researcher, and not some shlub.  He got to stand on Erskine's shoulders, but that doesn't mean he wasn't darned good at the job.  I mean, he had all the ethical sense of a rabid weasel, but technically smart, I'll give him.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## MarkB

Just to mention, there is a mid-credits scene in episode 5.


----------



## Stalker0

I'll throw this in spoilers since its shortly afterward for Episode 5.



Spoiler



I continue to like Zemo, just when you think he's going to zig, he zags. I like that he is not rushing off to be a mustache twirling villain that I think many are expecting.

This episode probably has the most heart of the show so far. While some of Falcon's hesitancy to take the shield was noted before, I think it was really crystalized in this episode. I like how ultimately the answer to Isaiah's treatment for Falcon is not anger, nor sadness....its determination. He takes the shield to continue the fight, so that Isaiah, and all the men like him, are not lost to history. That is Steve Rogers reborn, and that's why he has the shield. While Bucky has the body of Captain America, Falcon carries the heart.

It also highlights for me that this show really could have had a few more episodes. Its just finally getting good, we are getting into some bigger stuff with Falcon, and there is still some much to dissect with Bucky (I like that Bucky just apologies to Falcon about the Black man holding the shield, as he just straight up admits that neither he nor Steve thought about that and how it would feel when they hatched the plan....no excuses, just straight up and honest).

I also like that while Walker is clearly not mentally stable now on the serum, but you can still respect and appreciate what he's going through. While not the same as Isaiah by any stretch, you can see the same "washing our hands of this man"....a man who has served his country with honor for many years, because he is no longer convenient.

Yeah just a lot of stuff I liked in this episode.


----------



## Tonguez

It was really noticeable how John Walkers fighting techniques are so distinct from Steve Rogers, he portrays a much more brutal style v Steves more technical big kick. They've created an interesting character story which touches on some sensitive themes.

and Nick Furys girlfriend!

I did like the pace of this episode, though it ended abruptly as I was wanting more, and Im a bit sad that this was the penultimate episode.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Haven’t watched 5 yet, but just wanted to note how the final shot of 4 got a really visceral response from my wife and I, and my first thought was that Walker just killed Captain America.


----------



## trappedslider

so the word is that Val was supposed to be introduced in black widow's movie


----------



## Tonguez

trappedslider said:


> so the word is that Val was supposed to be introduced in black widow's movie



Yeah, her appearing without context was a bit weird, it will be interesting to see at what point in her history she is at - theres three options for where she might be aligned and what that bodes for John Walkers future


----------



## wicked cool

Thought it was a lousy episode- if this was a longer series I would say it was a filler episode. about 40 minutes of mental anguish (felt like I was watching this is us or a million little things) , throw in todays politics in new York at the end and it was a wrap. Right now The better new show for super heroes is invincible

really confused on the park scene-were these regular people zapped by the phone?

Super confused on the Val scene


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

wicked cool said:


> really confused on the park scene-were these regular people zapped by the phone?
> 
> Super confused on the Val scene




No, they are all Flag Smasher supporters/revolutionaries and were just waiting for the signal to "assemble" to help them.

Val is a character in the Black Widow movie, which normally would have come out months before this episode aired. I am guessing that rather than reshoot that scene to give more info on her, Marvel decided to keep it mysterious. I would not be surprised if neither she nor John are in the final episode, except maybe in another end-credits scene.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I also wonder if Walker will become his original comic book character of Super-Patriot, rather than US Agent. From the wiki:



> The character of John Walker was first introduced as the supervillain Super-Patriot in _Captain America_ #323 (November 1986). Mark Gruenwald created Walker to counter the general message in _Captain America_ of patriotism being invariably good, describing him as someone "who embodied patriotism in a way that Captain America didn't—a patriotic _villain_. "Basically, I just wanted to do the opposite of Steve Rogers. Okay, Steve Rogers is a poor northern urban boy. So I'll make a guy from rural middle-class south. Cap is now old, so this guy'll be a real young up-and-comer. Cap has lofty ideals, so I'll make Super-Patriot be more realistic and more pragmatic. So, I put together his background and character traits by playing the opposite game."




That sounds so much more like what the MCU is doing with him than with the US Agent profile.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

It was a slow episode, but the last one was really fast, so I think that balanced this out. The calm before the storm, as the next episode is the finale. 

At the end of the Walker-Sam-Bucky fight scene, at first I thought Walker was dead. Didn't his head/neck collide pretty hard with the shield? He is a super soldier, but that doesn't make him invincible. I wonder if it would be a better character arc for him to have died there than continuing on to make trouble. Anyway, I'm interested to see what he does in the next episode with his newly-forged shield. 

Sam's arc is basically finished now. I wish we could have seen the new wings that the Wakandans gave him in this episode, but of course Marvel is going to save that for the finale. I'm assuming they're made of Vibranium to make sure that they don't break so "easily" from now on. (what isn't made of Vibranium in the MCU these days? Bucky's arm, the Shield, the Black Panther Suit, the magical Wakandan beads of solving practically any problem, practically everything in Wakanda, and so on. I wonder what Spider-Man with a Vibranium suit would be like. . .)

Bucky also finished his arc, and helped Sam with his throughout this series. His not killing Zemo was a big message to both us and Zemo, showing that your past doesn't have to define you (especially if the past wasn't voluntary). Zemo can still cause problems if Marvel ever wants to bring him back, but I think he's gone for quite a long time. IMO, they're only going to bring him back if they really start running out of ideas. 

I would have preferred a bit more of action, but it didn't bother me too much. Both the start and end of the episode had a faster pace than the in-between, and the scenes with Isaiah and Sam, Walker facing the fallout of his actions, and Bucky and Zemo were interesting enough to keep the episode from feeling dull. 

I wonder if Sam and Bucky will tell the truth about who really killed Lamar. Should they? Would it be better for his family to believe that his life was avenged to help with their grief? Or would that just be letting Walker off the hook and cause more problems for the future?

Anyway, nice episode, this show doesn't cease to impress me, and I look forward to how the next episode wraps things up and how the future shows are.


----------



## MarkB

I'm guessing Bucky specified the colourscheme for Sam's replacement suit as red-white-and-blue. I'm not sure whether it will have wings (or flight capability without wings) or not - Sam leaving his broken wings behind seemed like a pretty symbolic move along his path to embracing the Captain America role.


----------



## TwoSix

MarkB said:


> I'm guessing Bucky specified the colourscheme for Sam's replacement suit as red-white-and-blue. I'm not sure whether it will have wings (or flight capability without wings) or not - Sam leaving his broken wings behind seemed like a pretty symbolic move along his path to embracing the Captain America role.



Yea, no way they're wings, it's gotta be a vibranium super-suit like Black Panther's.


----------



## Morrus

TwoSix said:


> Yea, no way they're wings, it's gotta be a vibranium super-suit like Black Panther's.



He’s the Falcon! There will be wings.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> He’s the Falcon! There will be wings.



But is he still the Falcon, or is he closing out the series as now being Captain America?


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

MarkB said:


> But is he still the Falcon, or is he closing out the series as now being Captain America?


----------



## TwoSix

Morrus said:


> He’s the Falcon! There will be wings.



Sounds like a wager!  The winner shall be shrouded in internet glory!


----------



## Morrus

MarkB said:


> But is he still the Falcon, or is he closing out the series as now being Captain America?



Or both?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> He’s the Falcon! There will be wings.




He left the broken wings with Torres, who will probably repair them and wear them himself, since in the comic books story where Falcon become Cap, Torres takes over as Falcon. But I have no clue what Sam's new outfit will look like, assuming that is what is in the case.


----------



## Morrus

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> since in the comic books story where Falcon become Cap, Torres takes over as Falcon.



Ah, well I don't have advance knowledge of the comic books.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> Ah, well I don't have advance knowledge of the comic books.




I only have it because I like to read the recap articles, and those are full of these bits of info and speculation. I haven't read a comic book since the early 90's.


----------



## Morrus

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I only have it because I like to read the recap articles, and those are full of these bits of info and speculation. I haven't read a comic book since the early 90's.



I think it's fair not to include that info in these threads. I purposefully don't check in until I've seen the episode, but if people are going to include info from the comics that spoils the show, I'm just gonna check out.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> I think it's fair not to include that info in these threads. I purposefully don't check in until I've seen the episode, but if people are going to include info from the comics that spoils the show, I'm just gonna check out.




Yeah, a lot of others have posted that type of info too. And I bet the Loki thread will be bad for that, as complex as that show is sounding. I am cool with putting future posts about speculation in spoiler tags and I would expect others would be too. Maybe something in the opening post of threads for future Marvel shows asking people to use spoiler tags for anything not directly from the shows?


----------



## Sacrosanct

Edit* nevermind.  an old image of Sam in a capt america outfit


----------



## Tonguez

Morrus said:


> He’s the Falcon! There will be wings.




Joaquín Torres becomes the new Falcon to Sams Capt America. Sam telling Torres to keep the broken wings was a good indicator that he might get to fly in future


----------



## billd91

Maybe the Wakandan gear will include wings, but they’re telegraphing Sam taking up the Captain America mantle *so hard*...


----------



## Sacrosanct

They've been selling toys of a Sam in a capt america outfit complete with shield and red wings, so...


----------



## Blue

Staffan said:


> I'm not sure we ever see Steve get into a situation where he would be *personally* angered. He's always a bit distant — he has comrades in arms, but I think pretty much no true friends (other than Bucky). He was clearly attracted to Peggy before being put on ice, but their relationship never got anywhere, and I don't think we ever saw him in a situation where she was seriously harmed or even threatened. I think everyone other than those two are basically on a buddy/co-worker basis with Steve.
> 
> The relationship between John and Lamar seemed a lot closer than the one between Steve and anyone else. Those two had been through some serious stuff together, building far stronger bonds. I'm not saying Steve would have reacted with rage toward someone similarly close being harmed, but we've never seen him tested like that.



I'm the opposite - I think we've seen _exactly_ this at the end of Civil War when Stark would not stand down, would not listen to reason, and was attempting to kill his best friend whom he also had been trying to save when no one else believed in him.  Stark knew Bucky was controlled, knew it wouldn't help, and was doing it for vengeance.  At the end, it was deadly earnest.

And F&WS specifically evoked that with the two handed cleaving attack with the Shield on a prone foe.  We have a clear mirror, but Cap controlled the anger and struck to incapacitate in a way that explicitly wouldn't kill, while Walker did the opposite.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

TwoSix said:


> Yea, no way they're wings, it's gotta be a vibranium super-suit like Black Panther's.



Both, unless they're making an enormous departure from the comics for no real reason.


billd91 said:


> Maybe the Wakandan gear will include wings, but they’re telegraphing Sam taking up the Captain America mantle *so hard*...



The two aren't mutually exclusive.


----------



## Blue

Eric V said:


> Yeah, how come no one is being more understanding of Walker when it's obvious he's grieving...?



Wonderful callback to the WandaVision discussion.  To treat it seriously, Walker was completely aware of what he was doing while Wanda wasn't aware she was hurting people and tried to stop it as soon as she did.

If I'm so zoned out from grief of the murder of my beloved and I shouldn't be driving, and if I hit a bus it's many crimes on me.  If I'm so rage-filled from the grief of the murder of my close friend that I intentionally ram their motorcycle with my can and kill them, it one but very big crime I've commited.


----------



## Blue

doctorbadwolf said:


> More on Zemo, and the idea that the Avengers killed his family.
> If I drive a car normally, at the speed limit, in normal conditions, it having undergone normal upkeep, and a defective axle or other part causes the front right wheel to fly off and hit someone, killing them, it is absurd to claim that I am responsible for that death. Tony and Bruce built an AI to run a defensive system to help defend against a second alien invasion. Had it not gone pretty damn randomly haywire, it would have helped immensely with Thanos.   There was no reasonable expectation for them to know that an AI based on Jarvis would come out a psychotic murder-bot.



Hold a second, I'm somewhat with you on the other points, but not this one.  It explicitly wasn't based on Jarvis, it was based on the unknown networking/code/conciousness they found in an alien weapon.  That they rushed to do in a short period of time without telling others because by their own admission the others would think it was too dangerous.

That's a far cry from "we're basing something on Jarvis".


----------



## Dire Bare

Stalker0 said:


> I'll throw this in spoilers since its shortly afterward for Episode 5.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I continue to like Zemo, just when you think he's going to zig, he zags. I like that he is not rushing off to be a mustache twirling villain that I think many are expecting.
> 
> This episode probably has the most heart of the show so far. While some of Falcon's hesitancy to take the shield was noted before, I think it was really crystalized in this episode. I like how ultimately the answer to Isaiah's treatment for Falcon is not anger, nor sadness....its determination. He takes the shield to continue the fight, so that Isaiah, and all the men like him, are not lost to history. That is Steve Rogers reborn, and that's why he has the shield. While Bucky has the body of Captain America, Falcon carries the heart.
> 
> It also highlights for me that this show really could have had a few more episodes. Its just finally getting good, we are getting into some bigger stuff with Falcon, and there is still some much to dissect with Bucky (I like that Bucky just apologies to Falcon about the Black man holding the shield, as he just straight up admits that neither he nor Steve thought about that and how it would feel when they hatched the plan....no excuses, just straight up and honest).
> 
> I also like that while Walker is clearly not mentally stable now on the serum, but you can still respect and appreciate what he's going through. While not the same as Isaiah by any stretch, you can see the same "washing our hands of this man"....a man who has served his country with honor for many years, because he is no longer convenient.
> 
> Yeah just a lot of stuff I liked in this episode.



Walker crossed a line (and continues to) and it's right that there should be consequences, but . . . . it is heartbreaking to see the U.S. military just abandon him like that. His line of, "You made me, I did what you asked, I did it well" (or words to that effect) was spot on.


----------



## Dire Bare

MarkB said:


> I'm guessing Bucky specified the colourscheme for Sam's replacement suit as red-white-and-blue. I'm not sure whether it will have wings (or flight capability without wings) or not - Sam leaving his broken wings behind seemed like a pretty symbolic move along his path to embracing the Captain America role.



I didn't know Torres becomes the new Falcon in the comics. Cool. There's no guarantee that'll happen in the MCU, but they certainly left the door open.

I don't follow the comics very closely, but there's plenty of art depicting Sam as Captain Falcon America . . . . wearing a Cap inspired outfit, wielding the shield, AND with wings! That's my guess as to what we'll see next week.


----------



## Dire Bare

Morrus said:


> I think it's fair not to include that info in these threads. I purposefully don't check in until I've seen the episode, but if people are going to include info from the comics that spoils the show, I'm just gonna check out.



I think you're going to have a hard time finding a thread on a comic book TV show or movie where we don't talk about the source material.

The MCU movies and TV shows have taken strong inspiration from the comics . . . the characters, the visuals, and the storylines. But most often remixes them so that these new stories, while inspired by the comics, aren't the same as the comics. Torres becomes the Falcon in the comics, that MIGHT happen in the MCU, might not. It certainly won't happen in the exact same way, if it even does happen. Zemo certainly got a different treatment than his 4-color counterpart. Morgenthau is almost a completely different character than the Flag-Smasher of the comics. Walker is walking (heh) some of the same beats his inspiration does, but the MCU version is much more grounded and fleshed out.

Talking about what happens in the comics can give context to the TV show (or movie), but it doesn't spoil what's going to happen in the next episode or movie.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Blue said:


> Hold a second, I'm somewhat with you on the other points, but not this one.  It explicitly wasn't based on Jarvis, it was based on the unknown networking/code/conciousness they found in an alien weapon.  That they rushed to do in a short period of time without telling others because by their own admission the others would think it was too dangerous.
> 
> That's a far cry from "we're basing something on Jarvis".



Well, not quite, it was the basic setup was a clone of Jarvis, and they were using alien tech to go beyond what Tony knew how to do. Definitely rushed, but like...there wasn’t any reason to expect it to go full skynet, and even it getting itself up and running like it did was out of left field. 

Yes they could have been more careful, but I don’t think it’s at all comparable to something like speeding down a residential in a heavy vehicle, where if someone dies as a result it’s 100% your fault and you’ve just committed murder. It’s an accident that just kept getting worse faster than they could get a handle on it. 

Ultron is a fully sapient being, also. Ultron killed those people.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

1) Torres being given the wings. I think this is just a seed, _in case_ they want to go there in future shows. I doubt it will lead to anything in this series. And ergo is not a spoiler.

2) Sam's new Captain America suit will obviously have wings. That's his combat style and special skill. It also makes it clear he isn't just an ersatz Steve Rogers. Will it have a new Redwing? Is the important question.

3) Obviously Sam will become Captain America. That's what the show is about, just like _Iron Man_ was about Tony Stark becoming Iron Man. The story of the show is _what does it mean to be Captain America?_, not _who should be Captain America?_.

4) Zemo letting himself be captured somewhat redeems the worst scene in episode 4. Bucky let him get away because he trusted him, and was _right_ to trust him.


----------



## Stalker0

Morrus said:


> Or both?



So you mean a Captain....Falcon?


----------



## Sacrosanct

Dire Bare said:


> Walker crossed a line (and continues to) and it's right that there should be consequences, but . . . . it is heartbreaking to see the U.S. military just abandon him like that. His line of, "You made me, I did what you asked, I did it well" (or words to that effect) was spot on.



Yeah....no. HE thinks that, sure, but the military does not make a person an indiscriminate killer, especially for what he did. There are rules, and codes. There is no excuse for killing a person in cold blood, even for a soldier. In fact, what he did was a betrayal not only of the law, but of his fellow soldiers, because we all know that actions like his put all the rest of us in greater danger.

The military won’t ask you to do what he did, so he’s just outright lying. Just like he lied when he said the man he killed was the one responsible for killing Battlestar.

As a veteran who spent all six years of my service overseas, and having lost three of my friends, what he did was a disgusting disgrace. Blaming the system is a cheap cop out. The military teaches discipline, not vigilante justice. The military can certainly do a lot more to deprogram you when you get out, and support vets better, but this?  No. Walker should be in jail for life at minimum.


----------



## Staffan

Sacrosanct said:


> The military won’t ask you to do what he did, so he’s just outright lying. Just like he lied when he said the man he killed was the one responsible for killing Battlestar.



Yeah, if there's a man responsible for Battlestar's death, that man's name is John Walker. I mean, sure, Morgenthau (IIRC) was the one who actually threw the lethal punch, but it happened in a situation where Wilson was talking to her, and making some progress in getting through, and then Walker shows up and says "enough talk, let's punch."

And at some level, Walker must know that. He probably isn't admitting it to himself, but he does know it.


----------



## Blue

Paul Farquhar said:


> Pretty sure it was just the current crop that was destroyed. I'm sure there are seeds. Killmonger was only worried about immediate challenges to his kingship, in the long term he wouldn't have wanted to lose access to Wakanda's supersoldier serum.



That's not what I got from The Black Panther, but I admit it's not clear cut.  When Ross hears that Killmonger burned the Heart Shaped Herb, he responds that he was trained to destabilize foreign countries by striking at transitions of power - such as someone else becoming the Black Panther.  It could be read that he was striking at the death of a monarch, but that makes no sense in the context as a response to burning the Heart Shaped Herb.



> NAKIA
> Killmonger has the full support of
> our military . And he burned the
> garden of the Heart Shaped Herb.
> 
> ROSS
> That's what he was trained to do.
> His unit used to work with the CIA
> to destabilize foreign countries
> 
> They would always strike at
> transitions of power ... like an
> election year or the death of a
> monarch.




Transcript from: Black Panther


----------



## MarkB

Blue said:


> That's not what I got from The Black Panther, but I admit it's not clear cut.  When Ross hears that Killmonger burned the Heart Shaped Herb, he responds that he was trained to destabilize foreign countries by striking at transitions of power - such as someone else becoming the Black Panther.  It could be read that he was strikign at the death of a monarch, but that makes no sense in the context as a response to burning the Heart Shaped Herb.
> 
> 
> 
> Transcript from: Black Panther



I tend to agree with you regarding his intent there. But I also agree that there's no way that was the one and only source of the herb. You don't put all your metaphorical eggs in one basket like that with crops - if nothing else, it would risk the entire crop being destroyed by a single blight or infestation.

And even if Killmonger was extra-thorough off-screen, there are probably still a few of them growing wild in some isolated corner of Wakanda.


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> I tend to agree with you regarding his intent there. But I also agree that there's no way that was the one and only source of the herb. You don't put all your metaphorical eggs in one basket like that with crops - if nothing else, it would risk the entire crop being destroyed by a single blight or infestation.
> 
> And even if Killmonger was extra-thorough off-screen, there are probably still a few of them growing wild in some isolated corner of Wakanda.



Agreed, it just ensures the herb is gone until the plot needs the herb to return.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I find it interesting that Walker's arm is taking so long to heal from being broken. That alone says this new serum is still inferior to the one give to Rogers.


----------



## hawkeyefan

Best episode yet, I thought. Nice action scene to kick it off, then a solid amount of character work to pull a lot of strands together. Some mystery introduced and build up to the final confrontation. Very good all around. 

Loved the scene with Sam and Isaiah in particular. Glad they came at the topic directly.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I find it interesting that Walker's arm is taking so long to heal from being broken. That alone says this new serum is still inferior to the one give to Rogers.



Or he was faking it in the hope that his superiors wouldn't be aware he'd dosed himself. Otherwise he'd have to expect his "non-honorable" discharge to come with a side-order of enforced hospitalisation and medical examinations.


----------



## Tonguez

MarkB said:


> I tend to agree with you regarding his intent there. But I also agree that there's no way that was the one and only source of the herb. You don't put all your metaphorical eggs in one basket like that with crops - if nothing else, it would risk the entire crop being destroyed by a single blight or infestation.
> 
> And even if Killmonger was extra-thorough off-screen, there are probably still a few of them growing wild in some isolated corner of Wakanda.



The herb only grew in that one spot due to the Vibranium infused soil giving it enhanced magical powers, thats why Killmonger destroying it was so damaging; there is no other source of the herb.

That said Im sure they’ll be able to save it somehow


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> Or he was faking it in the hope that his superiors wouldn't be aware he'd dosed himself. Otherwise he'd have to expect his "non-honorable" discharge to come with a side-order of enforced hospitalisation and medical examinations.




I had to go and read a little on Steve's healing ability too and it generally says he can fully heal broken bones in days, rather than weeks or months. So depending on how quickly that court martial was set up, Walker's arm could be healing at the same rate that Rogers would have, but it was just not fully healed yet.


----------



## MarkB

Tonguez said:


> The herb only grew in that one spot due to the Vibranium infused soil giving it enhanced magical powers, thats why Killmonger destroying it was so damaging; there is no other source of the herb.



That's not really confirmed in the movie. The vibranium asteroid is massive, creating a mountain-sized resource of the stuff, and that's not considering possibilities like traces of the element seeping into the water table and affecting the whole region.


Tonguez said:


> That said Im sure they’ll be able to save it somehow



Personally I like the idea of Shuri having long since reverse-engineered the plant and being able to recreate or even improve its effect in the lab. That would be very much in line with her character.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Dire Bare said:


> Walker crossed a line (and continues to) and it's right that there should be consequences, but . . . . it is heartbreaking to see the U.S. military just abandon him like that. His line of, "You made me, I did what you asked, I did it well" (or words to that effect) was spot on.



The job of a soldier is not one that is healthy for body and mind, and while that doesn't mean crimes done by soldiers should go unpunished, the government has responsibility for their well being and needs to keep taking care of their mental and physical health. Of course, Walker probably is having even more problems with therapy than Bucky or Sam had.


----------



## Maxperson

I liked the episode.  The montage where Sam practices with the shield was good, but the timing was off on it.  I would have enjoyed it more if Sam and Bucky hadn't been throwing the shield around nearly flawlessly 10 minutes before the montage of Sam being pretty bad at it and needing lots of practice.  We should have seen that montage right before Bucky showed up.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Maxperson said:


> I liked the episode.  The montage where Sam practices with the shield was good, but the timing was off on it.  I would have enjoyed it more if Sam and Bucky hadn't been throwing the shield around nearly flawlessly 10 minutes before the montage of Sam being pretty bad at it and needing lots of practice.  We should have seen that montage right before Bucky showed up.



Yeah, seems like it was meant to go the other way, but they decided that they wanted Bucky gone before Sam got down to training and edited it the other way around. My family discussed it a little and we decided that in the earlier scene Sam and Buck were only doing basic easy throws, and later Sam was getting down to the "real stuff" which made it harder than it looked. It works for the way the scene plays out, so I suggest thinking of it that way.


----------



## Maxperson

FitzTheRuke said:


> Yeah, seems like it was meant to go the other way, but they decided that they wanted Bucky gone before Sam got down to training and edited it the other way around. My family discussed it a little and we decided that in the earlier scene Sam and Buck were only doing basic easy throws, and later Sam was getting down to the "real stuff" which made it harder than it looked. It works for the way the scene plays out, so I suggest thinking of it that way.



The beginning throws in the montage were pretty basic and he had trouble catching as well.  Like I said, I liked the episode.  It's not like it ruined it for me.  I just thought it odd and out of order.


----------



## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> The beginning throws in the montage were pretty basic and he had trouble catching as well.  Like I said, I liked the episode.  It's not like it ruined it for me.  I just thought it odd and out of order.



Yeah, it certainly felt that way. I can see why they changed it up, though.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Maxperson said:


> The beginning throws in the montage were pretty basic and he had trouble catching as well.  Like I said, I liked the episode.  It's not like it ruined it for me.  I just thought it odd and out of order.



Absolutely. It may be an example of the most obvious "Whoops! THAT wasn't in the order that they meant for it to be when they filmed it!" in recent memory.


----------



## Tonguez

FitzTheRuke said:


> Absolutely. It may be an example of the most obvious "Whoops! THAT wasn't in the order that they meant for it to be when they filmed it!" in recent memory.



Yeah it did seem very much that way, especially when it featured so prominently in the trailers. Makes one wonder just how much of the original plot was actually cut before final release. Does anyone know if this was always suppose to be 6 episodes or was it originally going for more?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Tonguez said:


> Yeah it did seem very much that way, especially when it fratured so prominently in the trailers. Makes one wonder just how much of the original plot was actually cut before final release. Does anyone know if this was always suppose to be 6 episodes or was it originally going for more?



With that in mind, this show seems even worse than WandaVision did for: "How are they going to wrap up everything in just one more episode?"

If WandaVision tells us anything, the answer will be, "They won't."


----------



## Stalker0

FitzTheRuke said:


> With that in mind, this show seems even worse than WandaVision did for: "How are they going to wrap up everything in just one more episode?"
> 
> If WandaVision tells us anything, the answer will be, "They won't."



It’s the standard marvel answer, in the next movie!


----------



## hopeless

Hopefully this means a second season.
Will they see it that way though?


----------



## tomBitonti

Stalker0 said:


> It’s the standard marvel answer, in the next movie!



I get the feeling that both this and WandaVision are providing transitional pivots to the next major content phase.  Important themes and background points are being presented in these TV shows.  I expect there will be many plot lines which will remain open well into the movies.
TomB


----------



## Tonguez

tomBitonti said:


> I get the feeling that both this and WandaVision are providing transitional pivots to the next major content phase.  Important themes and background points are being presented in these TV shows.  I expect there will be many plot lines which will remain open well into the movies.
> TomB



WandaVision was a one off story but I can see how F&WS could do a second season with Sam taking on the Cap Persona, Torres as his wingman and Bucky rounding out the team. Continue to explore the GRC post-Blip and further schemes of the Powerbroker (And now Contessa Val de Fontaine)

The other option is that Sam shows up in the scheduled Armor Wars making that effectively F&WS ‘second season’. I’m also expecting that Zemo wont be back until they do Thunderbolts


----------



## hopeless

Given the original Armour Wars was all about Tony recovering the tech he believed stolen from him and misused, makes me wonder how they will handle this after he's died?
How does Ironheart fit into this if they're going to introduce her instead of the lad from Iron Man 3?
I can see Sam and Rhodey teaming up, but how does that relate to Tony's tech being misused?
Did Spidey recover those glasses?
Maybe thats not the only AI out there perhaps a variant of Mainframe that's more a duplication of Tony Stark himself?
Now how would they handle THAT?!


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> With that in mind, this show seems even worse than WandaVision did for: "How are they going to wrap up everything in just one more episode?"



Really? Seems like a pretty decent set-up for a finale. Sam's taken up the shield and got a new costume, he and Bucky know that Karli's next attack is going down at the GRC meeting in New York, Zemo's back in custody and Walker's gone rogue and made himself a cosplay shield.

Looks like we have a straight-up showdown at GRC HQ between Sam, Bucky and the Flag Smashers, with Walker and the Power Broker's contractors as the unknown variables. What else needs to be wrapped up?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

MarkB said:


> Really? Seems like a pretty decent set-up for a finale. Sam's taken up the shield and got a new costume, he and Bucky know that Karli's next attack is going down at the GRC meeting in New York, Zemo's back in custody and Walker's gone rogue and made himself a cosplay shield.
> 
> Looks like we have a straight-up showdown at GRC HQ between Sam, Bucky and the Flag Smashers, with Walker and the Power Broker's contractors as the unknown variables. What else needs to be wrapped up?




Well... yeah, you're right. The main plot-points of the series can easily be wrapped up in one episode. I guess I just felt like in some ways it's only just beginning with Walker and Sam picking up new "identities" right at the end of the last episode. There's also still things like "Who is Agent 13 _really_ working for" and "What's up with the Contessa" and "Who is the Power Broker". (Of course those things could all be solved in one answer...)


----------



## Tonguez

hopeless said:


> Given the original Armour Wars was all about Tony recovering the tech he believed stolen from him and misused, makes me wonder how they will handle this after he's died?
> How does Ironheart fit into this if they're going to introduce her instead of the lad from Iron Man 3?
> I can see Sam and Rhodey teaming up, but how does that relate to Tony's tech being misused?




Cheadle is on record that the script develops “_tension between Rhodeys job as a military man and his allegiances to the code that he swore an oath to uphold, versus the changing world” _
Taking that in the context of F&WS post-Blip world and in particular the Contessa’s statement in the last episode that the Shield doesnt actually belong to the Government and that its in a legal gray area allows for a good degree of speculation - _there is still StarkTech out in the world, including his armor and the various AI. Others (Hammer or AIM or PowerBroker?) are trying to reverse engineer and develop stuff based on Starks designs thus Rhodey is sent in to recover it but gets in to conflict over the Military/GRC desire to use the tech for their own purposes ..._


----------



## doctorbadwolf

FitzTheRuke said:


> With that in mind, this show seems even worse than WandaVision did for: "How are they going to wrap up everything in just one more episode?"
> 
> If WandaVision tells us anything, the answer will be, "They won't."



Good! Let some questions remain unanswered. Preferably some questions _never_ get answered.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

doctorbadwolf said:


> Good! Let some questions remain unanswered. Preferably some questions _never_ get answered.



I agree with that. As long as the main plot-points and any confusing bits are wrapped.


----------



## Older Beholder

Maxperson said:


> I liked the episode.  The montage where Sam practices with the shield was good, but the timing was off on it.  I would have enjoyed it more if Sam and Bucky hadn't been throwing the shield around nearly flawlessly 10 minutes before the montage of Sam being pretty bad at it and needing lots of practice.  We should have seen that montage right before Bucky showed up.




Yeah, I noticed that too. 
It didn't help that there was also a boat fixing montage in between (actually it might have been just before) the shield throwing montages. Kinda threw the pacing off a little, but overall another really well written episode.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

ModestModernist said:


> Yeah, I noticed that too.
> It didn't help that there was also a boat fixing montage in between (actually it might have been just before) the shield throwing montages. Kinda threw the pacing off a little, but overall another really well written episode.



My kids and I were making jokes that we wished we could pick up olympic-level skills or build/repair large objects/machines just by playing some good loud music and working for a few days....


----------



## Umbran

TwoSix said:


> Yea, no way they're wings, it's gotta be a vibranium super-suit like Black Panther's.



Embrace the power of AND...


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Personally I like the idea of Shuri having long since reverse-engineered the plant and being able to recreate or even improve its effect in the lab. That would be very much in line with her character.




I'm not a fan of that idea.  You seem to be thinking of that as, well, just one more drug, a pharmaceutical technology.

To the Wakandans, there's a spiritual element to that herb that you aren't going to get by getting it from a test tube.


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> I would have enjoyed it more if Sam and Bucky hadn't been throwing the shield around nearly flawlessly 10 minutes before the montage of Sam being pretty bad at it and needing lots of practice.  We should have seen that montage right before Bucky showed up.




There's a difference between playing simple catch standing still, and doing parkour and acrobatics while attempting varying planned ricochet strikes at full combat speed..


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> There's a difference between playing simple catch standing still, and doing parkour and acrobatics while attempting varying planned ricochet strikes at full combat speed..




This. I have watched the episode twice and in the training montage, Sam is going at it much harder and putting a lot more force into the throws.

But what has always amazed me is how magically well everyone catches the shield when it comes back to them. Their arm just seems to always fit perfectly into the straps on the back. I could see it if the shield were flat, but with the curve the edge has, there really should be no way for it to go back onto the arm the way it does.


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> This. I have watched the episode twice and in the training montage, Sam is going at it much harder and putting a lot more force into the throws.
> 
> But what has always amazed me is how magically well everyone catches the shield when it comes back to them. Their arm just seems to always fit perfectly into the straps on the back. I could see it if the shield were flat, but with the curve the edge has, there really should be no way for it to go back onto the arm the way it does.



_The Shield is perfectly balanced, extremely light, kinetic energy absorbing blah blah_

okay its magic


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Tonguez said:


> _The Shield is perfectly balanced, extremely light, kinetic energy absorbing blah blah_
> 
> okay its magic



It at least made a bit more sense when Stark modified it to be magnetic, but that modification seems to have been long abandoned. The shield is magic.


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> There's a difference between playing simple catch standing still, and doing parkour and acrobatics while attempting varying planned ricochet strikes at full combat speed..



Yes, but he added those extras in the middle of the montage.  At the beginning he was just playing catch with it while standing still.  His first throw was even wobbly.  The level of skill in his first few throws was less than he displayed with Bucky.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Maxperson said:


> Yes, but he added those extras in the middle of the montage.  At the beginning he was just playing catch with it while standing still.  His first throw was even wobbly.  The level of skill in his first few throws was less than he displayed with Bucky.




Maybe he was still buzzed from the beers he and Bucky shared.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

ModestModernist said:


> Yeah, I noticed that too.
> It didn't help that there was also a boat fixing montage in between (actually it might have been just before) the shield throwing montages. Kinda threw the pacing off a little, but overall another really well written episode.



Theory: this would have been corrected in reshoots, but the pandemic prevented reshoots happening so they had to use the footage they had.


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> I'm not a fan of that idea.  You seem to be thinking of that as, well, just one more drug, a pharmaceutical technology.
> 
> To the Wakandans, there's a spiritual element to that herb that you aren't going to get by getting it from a test tube.



Perhaps, but they seem to be pretty good at integrating their technological advances into their traditions. And Shuri is enough of a non-traditionalist that she might have gone ahead and done it anyway.


----------



## Older Beholder

Paul Farquhar said:


> Theory: this would have been corrected in reshoots, but the pandemic prevented reshoots happening so they had to use the footage they had.



Yeah, definitely had the feel, also I think this episode may have had ideas or characters meant to be introduced in the Black Widow movie that needed to be moved around.


----------



## BRayne

ModestModernist said:


> Yeah, definitely had the feel, also I think this episode may have had ideas or characters meant to be introduced in the Black Widow movie that needed to be moved around.




They confirmed in an interview that the Contessa was supposed to be introduced in Black Widow at the very least. So if she doesn't show up in that last episode it's probably that what she's actually doing was set up there (let's say a post credit scene where she pops up and says "I'm here to talk to you about Project: Thunderbolt" to Yelena).


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> Yes, but he added those extras in the middle of the montage.  At the beginning he was just playing catch with it while standing still.  His first throw was even wobbly.  The level of skill in his first few throws was less than he displayed with Bucky.




The shield is as much a metaphor as it is a physical object in the fiction.  The _symbology_ is the important bit in these scenes.  Think of performance with the shield to be as much or more about the character's psychological and emotional state as it is a literally note of their skills.

Or, as a No-Prize answer for the literal minded - when he and Bucky are chucking the old frizbee around, they are relaxed, just talking.  They are supporting each other, so the shield moves smoothly back and forth.  When the montage happens, Sam really _means_ it, and therefore has a level of tension and anxiety that screws him up until he gets comfortable with the skill, and the role he's taking on.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> But what has always amazed me is how magically well everyone catches the shield when it comes back to them.




They can also slam into concrete so hard it shatters, but stand up a few seconds later.  There's a reason they are called *SUPER*heroes.


----------



## billd91

Umbran said:


> They can also slam into concrete so hard it shatters, but stand up a few seconds later.  There's a reason they are called *SUPER*heroes.



To say nothing about getting punched all the time without suffering brain damage.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

billd91 said:


> To say nothing about getting punched all the time without suffering brain damage.




The ones with the Healing Factor, whether from science or mutation, at least have an excuse for not suffering that. But not all the others.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Perhaps, but they seem to be pretty good at integrating their technological advances into their traditions. And Shuri is enough of a non-traditionalist that she might have gone ahead and done it anyway.




It is an awkward construction, since they already had the issue of the herb being destroyed.  If she'd done it in the past, there would have been no major issue at that moment.  And then why isn't all of Wakanda filled with Black Panthers?

If she hadn't done it before the herbs were destroyed... afterwards, she doesn't have samples to work with.  You can kludge together something, I'm sure, but it starts getting a bit _deus ex machina_.

Also, dramatically, Shuri ought to have _some_ limits, or she ceases to be interesting.


----------



## tomBitonti

For the destruction of the garden to be dramatically meaningful, replacement of the garden must not be easy.

Potential difficulties could be slow growth of the herb, or scarcity of growing sites.  The herb might require just the right amount of vibranium, or chemical variation of vibranium, and might require just the right environment.  The garden that was destroyed was underground and carefully tended.

TomB


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> It is an awkward construction, since they already had the issue of the herb being destroyed.  If she'd done it in the past, there would have been no major issue at that moment.



Yes, there would, because they were on the run and didn't have access to Shuri's lab. Once T'Challa is found injured, she specifically wants to take him back there to heal him, but it's impossible because he'd die within moments of being moved.


Umbran said:


> And then why isn't all of Wakanda filled with Black Panthers?



Because that's not what they do. They could have filled Wakanda with Black Panthers simply by cultivating enough of the herbs, and they certainly had more than enough available to at least give them to a few dozen people. But no, it's reserved for the ruler of Wakanda and their heir. Shuri having the ability to reproduce it doesn't change that.


Umbran said:


> Also, dramatically, Shuri ought to have _some_ limits, or she ceases to be interesting.



Sure, but she's already been shown to be a prodigy at both Vibranium-related technology and cutting-edge medical techniques, so this would sit firmly within her wheelhouse.


----------



## tomBitonti

Plus, one apparently does not simple ingest the raw herb.  There is a preparation, and an ice bath.  The necessary steps may be hard to perform without particular knowledge.
TomB


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Sure, but she's already been shown to be a prodigy at both Vibranium-related technology and cutting-edge medical techniques, so this would sit firmly within her wheelhouse.




We will just have to disagree on this. Thanks for your thoughts.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

tomBitonti said:


> For the destruction of the garden to be dramatically meaningful, replacement of the garden must not be easy.




Regardless of the in-movie consequences, if we pay attention to Ryan Coogler about what he is planning for Black Panther 2, he is saying the movie will be more Wakanda-focused, like the Wakanda series he is also working on. And since they are not recasting T'Challa, I am getting the feeling that the character will still be alive, but will just not appear at all in the movie or series. Maybe seen in the distance or something, where they can use a body double and there is no dialogue, or in a distant fight scene, where his stunt double can do the action. So maybe once Black Panther 3 eventually happens, Coogler will resolve this or maybe it will stay with T'Challa alive and off-camera.


----------



## Stalker0

So rewatching cap America 2 and it’s always interesting how framing and context come into play.

the opening jogging scene has cap running circles around falcon, calling out “on your left” over and over.

without knowing cap, it could be easy to see him as a bit of a jerk and showboat in that moment, and for Sam to be put off by him. But that’s part of the serum too, caps goodness and charm were magnified, so a scene that could be used to introduce a “jerk” actually endears him to Sam. Steve comes off looking great, whereas Walker in a similar scene might have looked like an “a**”

It’s an importance difference between the two which also pushes their paths in different directions.


----------



## Staffan

FitzTheRuke said:


> My kids and I were making jokes that we wished we could pick up olympic-level skills or build/repair large objects/machines just by playing some good loud music and working for a few days....


----------



## Janx

I heard one rumor where Black Panther 2 is set to be after the snap.  Thus, no Black Panther. Thus, recasting debate neatly dodged.

Now back to Sam and the B, ep 5.

I enjoyed it.  great struggle getting that shield back from Walker.  it was also good to see Sam get back to his problem at home, and to get a helping hand.  

The scenes with Bradley were powerful. A strong case for not supporting an America built on oppression.  

I had predicted Bucky would go back to see the old man at Ep 5.  I was wrong, but at least they mentioned it.  My friend guessed it would be a mid-credit scene in ep 6.  At this point, it's not clear if there's time for Bucky to do that before the big boss battle.  But we'll see.

Ep 6 will be the big spectacle, but this episode was the heart.

My new guesses are:
Torres will repair the wings and ideally, appear for the fight as the cavalry.
My hedge bet is Torres will get a mid-credit scene with the wings, hinting at a new role for him.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> My new guesses are:
> Torres will repair the wings and ideally, appear for the fight as the cavalry.
> My hedge bet is Torres will get a mid-credit scene with the wings, hinting at a new role for him.




Given that he took on the role of Falcon in the comics, that's not a stretch.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Janx said:


> I heard one rumor where Black Panther 2 is set to be after the snap. Thus, no Black Panther. Thus, recasting debate neatly dodged.



But Shuri was also snapped, IIRC, so that would be an issue if they were going to make her the next Black Panther.


----------



## Umbran

AcererakTriple6 said:


> But Shuri was also snapped, IIRC, so that would be an issue if they were going to make her the next Black Panther.




If she does get snapped, it doesn't happen on screen.  IIRC, That she got snapped comes from promotional posters, and a trailer noting her as "missing" (in that the remaining Avengers don't know where she is - a scene which I forget if it ever makes it to the movie).

She could be missing because she's dealing with Black Panther stuff.


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> If she does get snapped, it doesn't happen on screen.  IIRC, That she got snapped comes from promotional posters, and a trailer noting her as "missing" (in that the remaining Avengers don't know where she is - a scene which I forget if it ever makes it to the movie).
> 
> She could be missing because she's dealing with Black Panther stuff.







This is the scene from Endgame  Trailer where both Scott Lang and Shuri among others are noted as Missing after the snap (the Shuri image is quickly replaced by Peter Parker, while Scotts lingers)

of course we now know that Scott wasnt actually dusted, which does give support to the notion that others marked as missing (like Shuri) might have survived the snap especially as we didnt see her dusted on screen


----------



## Paul Farquhar

It's in the film as well. Shuri is shown amongst the disappeared.

I think it would be difficult to do Black Panther without either Black Panther or Shuri.


----------



## Stalker0

Paul Farquhar said:


> I think it would be difficult to do Black Panther without either Black Panther or Shuri.



I can see a couple of options for BP 2 myself.

1) Past Wakanda: Its a movie about an earlier time maybe a generation or two back. Or we go all the way back to the first Black Panther or something. I think this is a unlikely option just because I think the MCU is focused on moving the plot forward in the movies, leaving the TV shows to fill in various gaps. So I could see this as a TV option, but less likely as a movie.

2) Blip Wakanda: We start with a Black Panther funeral scene, and of course the audience assumes its modern day. But then we find out that no, its 5 years ago, when the Wakandans thought their king was dead after the blip, and had the funeral then. The movie focuses on Okoye and maybe Shuri. Shuri doesn't feel worthy to be King (she is in theory the next in line I believe), and so goes into hiding rather than vying for succession. Okoye has to put on the mantle of black panther (extremely reluctantly of course) while Shuri advises and helps her with the tech (maintaining the "Q" to her James Bond). Obviously Okoye gives up the mantle immediately upon the return of her king, but this gives us the option to make her the next Black Panther when T'Challa dies for the "second" time, in whatever way the MCU handles that.

Obviously the blip could cause a million problems you could use as your plot driver, take your pick.

I know a lot of people want Shuri in the suit, but I don't see it. Shuri is a scientist at heart, and she plays the supporting "Q" type role very well. Okoye is the fighter, she has the heart of Black Panther to me, so I feel like it would work much better with her in the suit and Shuri supporting with gadgets and tech.

Of course nothing is ideal compared to having Boseman in the suit, but its a viable way to go.


----------



## ShinHakkaider

I know this is a hot take but I'm not interested in a BLACK PANTHER movie WITHOUT T'Challa. 

They recast people ALL THE TIME. Why is this character so precious that they cant or wont do that. 
I mean I know why but still. I know at some point Shuri DOES take over the mantle of BP but T'challa is still the lead of the book. 

Yeah I have no interest in a T'challa-less BP movie.


----------



## Umbran

ShinHakkaider said:


> They recast people ALL THE TIME. Why is this character so precious that they cant or wont do that.
> I mean I know why but still.




All the time... except, not since Ruffalo took on Hulk.

But it is less that this character is so precious, so much as the actor.  Aside for many other arguments, he did all this really cool stuff... _while dying of cancer_.  So, maybe leaving it be for a while is, you know, respectful and stuff.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> All the time... except, not since Ruffalo took on Hulk.
> 
> But it is less that this character is so precious, so much as the actor.  Aside for many other arguments, he did all this really cool stuff... _while dying of cancer_.  So, maybe leaving it be for a while is, you know, respectful and stuff.



I'd even take it a step further. He was a well respected and famous black actor who starred in a movie that many people are looking to as a shining example of black culture. Aka Black Panther is more than just a movie to some people, it has cultural significance.

Normally I am for recasts, I don't think most roles can only be played by one person (though its always a challenge for an actor to come in and fill shoes), but in this case....I think Marvel is taking the prudent course in not recasting, at least not in the near future.


----------



## Staffan

Stalker0 said:


> 2) Blip Wakanda: We start with a Black Panther funeral scene, and of course the audience assumes its modern day. But then we find out that no, its 5 years ago, when the Wakandans thought their king was dead after the blip, and had the funeral then. The movie focuses on Okoye and maybe Shuri. Shuri doesn't feel worthy to be King (she is in theory the next in line I believe), and so goes into hiding rather than vying for succession. Okoye has to put on the mantle of black panther (extremely reluctantly of course) while Shuri advises and helps her with the tech (maintaining the "Q" to her James Bond). Obviously Okoye gives up the mantle immediately upon the return of her king, but this gives us the option to make her the next Black Panther when T'Challa dies for the "second" time, in whatever way the MCU handles that.



Wakanda doesn't seem to have a clear line of succession, given the rites surrounding T'Challa's ascension to the throne. There's an expectation that the king's son (or maybe daughter, we don't know how equal Wakanda is in this regard) is next in line, but the heir apparent still has to defend their claim. Shuri is real competent at what she does, but I do not see her beating up M'Baku at Warrior Falls without any gadgets. Okoye might, though, but she does not seem like a person who *wants* to rule, and that's kind of demanded by the Wakandan traditions.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> I'd even take it a step further. He was a well respected and famous black actor who starred in a movie that many people are looking to as a shining example of black culture. Aka Black Panther is more than just a movie to some people, it has cultural significance.




Definitely.  I just gave ShinHakkaider the benefit of the doubt that this was their "I know why..."


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MCU movies are not recast. I don't count the first two Hulk movies in that. If Iron Man continues, or Captain America, or any other character has a new actor, it will be because there are multiple versions of the character in the comic books. There is a female Iron Man and a female Thor and a female Wolverine and multiple characters who have been Spiderman. If there has been a viable alternate Black Panther in the comic books, then I expect to see that character eventually. But none of these are recastings. They are all separate characters with their own names and history.


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> All the time... except, not since Ruffalo took on Hulk.
> 
> But it is less that this character is so precious, so much as the actor.  Aside for many other arguments, he did all this really cool stuff... _while dying of cancer_.  So, maybe leaving it be for a while is, you know, respectful and stuff.



ahem - Rhodey


----------



## Rabulias

Janx said:


> ahem - Rhodey



James Rhodes was recast with Don Cheadle in _Iron Man 2_, _before _the first _Avengers _movie which recast Mark Ruffalo as Bruce Banner.


----------



## billd91

Janx said:


> ahem - Rhodey



And Red Skull, though he's not exactly a major, on-going character.


----------



## Umbran

Staffan said:


> Wakanda doesn't seem to have a clear line of succession, given the rites surrounding T'Challa's ascension to the throne. There's an expectation that the king's son (or maybe daughter, we don't know how equal Wakanda is in this regard) is next in line, but the heir apparent still has to defend their claim. Shuri is real competent at what she does, but I do not see her beating up M'Baku at Warrior Falls without any gadgets. Okoye might, though, but she does not seem like a person who *wants* to rule, and that's kind of demanded by the Wakandan traditions.




So, we can look to the comics to see how it might play out.  

In the comics, the Skrulls do their "Secret Invasion" thing.  Dealing with the Secret Invasion involves the Illuminati - a bunch of heroes (Mr. Fantastic, Tony Stark, Doc Strange, and others) who do a lot of controlling things in secret.  At the end of Secret Invasion, we are introduced to  the Cabal - a group of antagonists and villains, a kind of dark version of the Illuminati.  T'Challa is invited to join the Cabal.  He refuses and is attacked by Doctor Doom, who grievously wounds him, and puts T'Challa in a coma.

Shuri takes his place as Black Panther.  T'Challa recovers, but never takes back leadership of Wakanda before it is destroyed, IIRC.

So, since there _is_ an upcoming Secret Invasion series, and we expect the Fantastic Four, and Doctor Doom, to come along, we might see a variation of this story.


----------



## MarkB

Staffan said:


> Wakanda doesn't seem to have a clear line of succession, given the rites surrounding T'Challa's ascension to the throne. There's an expectation that the king's son (or maybe daughter, we don't know how equal Wakanda is in this regard) is next in line, but the heir apparent still has to defend their claim. Shuri is real competent at what she does, but I do not see her beating up M'Baku at Warrior Falls without any gadgets. Okoye might, though, but she does not seem like a person who *wants* to rule, and that's kind of demanded by the Wakandan traditions.



The line of succession is clear, but subject to challenge. And more to the point, the position of Black Panther is linked to succession, but separate from it. T'Challa was already the Black Panther before he was king - even before his father was killed. Shuri might similarly inherit one role separately from the other.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

So, does anyone have any wild, or not so wild, speculation on how the series finale will go? It has already been officially said that this series is supposed to be setting up a couple of the upcoming movies, but which ones? Since Black Widow was supposed to come out before this show, it can't be that one. As for speculation, I do not expect to see Val or Walker in it. Torres may show up in the Falcon wings. I don't like Sharon being bad, but I think she is the Power Broker's primary rival, and not the current Power Broker.


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> So, does anyone have any wild, or not so wild, speculation on how the series finale will go? It has already been officially said that this series is supposed to be setting up a couple of the upcoming movies, but which ones? Since Black Widow was supposed to come out before this show, it can't be that one. As for speculation, I do not expect to see Val or Walker in it. Torres may show up in the Falcon wings. I don't like Sharon being bad, but I think she is the Power Broker's primary rival, and not the current Power Broker.




It looks like a pretty straightforward showdown at the GRC Headquarters in NYC. So Falcon heads there to stop the Flagsmashers, Bucky joins him,  Torres is there providing air support. Sam wants to talk Karli down, the Flagsmashers are about to give up but then Walker shows up and makes a mess (possibly Karli is killed/hurt).

Aftermath: Bucky and Sam go back to Louisiana and start the BuckyGump Shrimp boating business (Bucky is still flirting with Sams sister, despite the 50 yr age gap)

Post credit: Contessa Val goes to Thaddeus Ross and tells him that Walker might be a useful asset for the ‘New Team’.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Tonguez said:


> Aftermath: Bucky and Sam go back to Louisiana and start the BuckyGump Shrimp boating business (Bucky is still flirting with Sams sister, despite the 50 yr age gap)




Um, Bucky is 106, so more like a 70 year age gap. Though his chronological and biological age are nowhere close to each other, so who knows. And most people don't seem to care about the older man, younger woman relationship.   lol


----------



## MarkB

Tonguez said:


> It looks like a pretty straightforward showdown at the GRC Headquarters in NYC. So Falcon heads there to stop the Flagsmashers, Bucky joins him,  Torres is there providing air support. Sam wants to talk Karli down, the Flagsmashers are about to give up but then Walker shows up and makes a mess (possibly Karli is killed/hurt).
> 
> Aftermath: Bucky and Sam go back to Louisiana and start the BuckyGump Shrimp boating business (Bucky is still flirting with Sams sister, despite the 50 yr age gap)
> 
> Post credit: Contessa Val goes to Thaddeus Ross and tells him that Walker might be a useful asset for the ‘New Team’.



The only thing I'd add to that is that Batroc is going to turn out not to be on the Flag Smashers' side. He joined them on the pretext of having a score to settle with Sam, but he's actually there as the Power Broker's agent.


----------



## BRayne

billd91 said:


> And Red Skull, though he's not exactly a major, on-going character.




and Cassie Lang, twice now


----------



## RangerWickett

Well really Wakanda needs to get past this whole hereditary monarchy/trial by combat stuff. They've got a ton of cool technology and apparently a high standard of living, but their political theory seemingly doesn't care about the consent of the governed.

I'm sure the MCU's target audience would go gaga over a Black Panther 2 that delves deep into political philosophy.

Anyway, I know they've said they won't recast T'Challa, but T'Challa could decide to focus on being the ruler of Wakanda, enacting reforms and handling the politics, while a new person takes on the mantle of Black Panther. Right now, I'm rather smitten with Aldis Hodge. He had a great presence in One Night in Miami. Aldis Hodge - IMDb


----------



## Staffan

RangerWickett said:


> Well really Wakanda needs to get past this whole hereditary monarchy/trial by combat stuff. They've got a ton of cool technology and apparently a high standard of living, but their political theory seemingly doesn't care about the consent of the governed.



There does seem to be an element of consent from tribal leaders. When Killmonger shows up, he first makes his case before the tribal council, who decides that yes, his challenge is valid.

We don't really know how the council members are appointed. They are called "elders", but I don't think it's as simple as "the oldest person in the tribe". W'Kabi certainly doesn't seem like an "elder". One might think that having a system where power is vested in representatives that may or may not be democratically elected, and that might represent different population sizes based on archaic traditions is bad, but some countries get to do that today and be called democratic.
(Yes, that's a dig at the USA in general and the Senate in particular.)



RangerWickett said:


> I'm sure the MCU's target audience would go gaga over a Black Panther 2 that delves deep into political philosophy.



Matt Colville made a video where he took a look at Black Panther from a political perspective and how it demonstrated the nature of power. A notable thing is that while T'Challa is king, it is his disregard for W'Kabi's wishes regarding Wakanda's role in the world in general and the pursuit of Klaue in particular that leads to W'Kabi's support for Killmonger's claim, without which the claim wouldn't have gotten anywhere.



RangerWickett said:


> Anyway, I know they've said they won't recast T'Challa, but T'Challa could decide to focus on being the ruler of Wakanda, enacting reforms and handling the politics, while a new person takes on the mantle of Black Panther. Right now, I'm rather smitten with Aldis Hodge. He had a great presence in One Night in Miami. Aldis Hodge - IMDb



I haven't seen that one, but he was amazing on Leverage.


----------



## Umbran

Staffan said:


> (Yes, that's a dig at the USA in general and the Senate in particular.)




*Mod Note:*

Not cool.  Don't do that, please and thank you.


----------



## Umbran

Staffan said:


> I haven't seen that one, but he was amazing on Leverage.




Hodge just finished up on Leverage: Redemption, and is currently working on Black Adam, playing Carter Hall/Hawkman.  Since both Black Adam and Black Panther 2 are expected in 2022, he's unlikely to make it into the Marvel movie.


----------



## billd91

Staffan said:


> We don't really know how the council members are appointed. They are called "elders", but I don't think it's as simple as "the oldest person in the tribe". W'Kabi certainly doesn't seem like an "elder". One might think that having a system where power is vested in representatives that may or may not be democratically elected, and that might represent different population sizes based on archaic traditions is bad, but some countries get to do that today and be called democratic.
> (Yes, that's a dig at the USA in general and the Senate in particular.)



We don't know how they're appointed, but the implication of the challenge is that their blood may be royal within their own tribes. But with respect to representative institutions, sometimes a more important consideration than just population size is pluralism. Since Wakanda is a coalition of tribes, their government was probably set up so that no single tribe could be cut out of political consideration through a power-sharing arrangement where each has a seat at the table. This is a significant issue in multi-ethnic states or states with other major cleavages between population where a minority might be small enough to be perpetual but large enough that they shouldn't be ignored as they might be with a democratic system based solely on population (Northern Ireland is a classic example, as is Belgium).
(Democracy is harder than it looks.)


----------



## Stalker0

billd91 said:


> (Democracy is harder than it looks.)



So difficult its never been done, though we have tried a republic or two


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Stalker0 said:


> So difficult its never been done, though we have tried a republic or two



Bit reductive.


----------



## Blue

doctorbadwolf said:


> Well, not quite, it was the basic setup was a clone of Jarvis, and they were using alien tech to go beyond what Tony knew how to do.



No, they didn't.  Jarvis was running the tests.  There was no Jarvis in Ultron.  There was Jarvis in Vision.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Stalker0 said:


> So difficult its never been done, though we have tried a republic or two





doctorbadwolf said:


> Bit reductive.



Y’all, we’ve already had a warning about getting too much into RW politics.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Blue said:


> No, they didn't.  Jarvis was running the tests.  There was no Jarvis in Ultron.  There was Jarvis in Vision.



That argument happen one thousand years ago, my dude. 

Also, I'm pretty sure that yeah, the software framework for the AI Tony was building was based on Jarvis. That's at least the implication of the scenes where they're working on it initially. 

The Vision situation is completely different from "an ai based on Jarvis", since Vision was made by Tony straight up trying to give Jarvis a super body, resulting in Jarvis essentially dying to create/become Vision.


----------



## Tonguez

Stalker0 said:


> So difficult its never been done, though we have tried a republic or two



I remember giggling when a school teacher I had argued that Democracy was achieved by the Roman _*Empire*_, the mental gymnastic required to justify the shift from Republic was outstanding


----------



## Stalker0

So the finale just came out....what did I think?



Spoiler



Sam's new costume is tight. I really liked that at the end, he finished his battle with words instead of fists. Captain America is not about power, its about the symbol that inspires others to do the right thing...and they nailed that piece.

I am glad that Walker didn't go full heel turn on us, that when the choice came between revenge and saving others that he made the right call. That said it did feel a little too neat, he shows up, they all fight together....everything is just cool.

The Flag Smashers were the biggest casualty of the 6 episode runtime. At the end, they seemed to just fade with a whimper. They kept going with this "lets convince Karli that killing is bad".... but at the same time showed her coming to terms with her mission and being ready to die for it. Being a revolutionary....means killing the old order....its not a pretty business, and Karli had gained her conviction. So to see her a bit torn at the end, and even apologize as she died....it just didn't sit right with me. They made these group out to be a massive world spanning "cult", and at the end their master plan was to kidnap a few people and negotiate for more stuff.....that's it?

There is also the oddity with their ending. We got the guard saying "One World, One People" suggesting the movement will live on...but then everyone gets firebombed....suggesting they are really dead, so its unclear what they are going for there.

Shannon Carter as the Power Broker seemed pretty obvious but I do like it. Ultimately why she wasn't taken care of when Cap seemed to help everyone else is a massive plot gap to me....but considering what happened, I think her change makes complete sense, and glad to see the character will stick around for new things in the future.

The fact that we finally get the scene with Bucky and the old Japanese man and then cut that short was an absolute travesty. Did the man forgive him, did he rage out and demand justice... I mean all we got was "why?".....because I had no choice. Sorry Bucky the guy needs a little more than that. That was the biggest character moment for Bucky in the entire show and they cut it in half.

I continue to like Sam's unique style. The moment where he took a super soldier's punch on the shield but sticking his wings into the ground for support was very cool.

Ultimately I think the show was....fine, just fine. We got a little character, not as much as I wanted. The plot and villain was ultimately just there to have stuff happen. I do think Bucky and Sam are a good team...but I didn't get as much "buddy cop" elements as I expected coming into the show. I enjoyed it all things considered, its a fine filler while waiting for the next movie, but its unlikely to be something I rewatch.

And lastly, my man Zemo. So did the Contessa put Zemo in the raft or break him out of it....they never actually say. I will say it doesn't make any sense for Zemo to be in the raft, he's awesome but he's just a good operative, he's not packing super powers or anything.


----------



## wicked cool

was decent but wow did this show get so political (felt very 1980s super hero stuff or when the shows end and the stars come out with a message)



stay after credits for extra


----------



## Tonguez

I was suprised they gave Walker a bit of redemption after last weeks turn, but a more subtle change to the character moving forward is probably a good thing,

Im sad the Carter name has been besmirched but it does set up for all kinds of future plot lines

I was right right about Buckygump (they even throw some shrimp), and Sams new suit does look tight

Even from the Raft Zemo still rocks, though sad about Karli (is she really gone?)

the Captains speech also gave so much feels


----------



## Sacrosanct

I liked the series.  For two main reasons.

1. it addresses the elephant in the room about what happens when half the world's population suddenly reappears after 5 years that the movies never addressed.
2. Comics have always been at the forefront of addressing social issues, and this series took it head on.  Which in this current climate was very much needed.


----------



## MoonSong

Ok, This one I liked a lot. Exciting, emotive, and only slightly in-your-face, 4.5/5 would watch again



Stalker0 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The Flag Smashers were the biggest casualty of the 6 episode runtime. At the end, they seemed to just fade with a whimper. They kept going with this "lets convince Karli that killing is bad".... but at the same time showed her coming to terms with her mission and being ready to die for it. Being a revolutionary....means killing the old order....its not a pretty business, and Karli had gained her conviction. So to see her a bit torn at the end, and even apologize as she died....it just didn't sit right with me. They made these group out to be a massive world spanning "cult", and at the end their master plan was to kidnap a few people and negotiate for more stuff.....that's it?



You see:


Spoiler



That is in part the point. It is very easy to believe you are willing to die for your cause, but until you do there is no way to make sure you actually are. Of course Karli said she would die for the cause, she felt practically immortal. Only when she was actually dying she managed to grasp the value of life -the lives she was gleefully taking without a care-. Many times cult leaders end up believing their own hype.



On Sam:


Spoiler



Let me say, I've never cared for Cap Sam, but after this, wow. The suit is one of the coolest translations from page to live action, and he actually sold that he deserves the stripes and stars, let alone the shield.



On Walker:


Spoiler



I'm glad they let him redeem himself on a way. And ironically by letting go of wanting to be Captain America he was actually the closest to being worthy he's ever been. Nice touch that he ended up getting some kind of tumbs up from Bucky



In Sharon



Spoiler



:
I knew it!!


----------



## Blue

Staffan said:


> Wakanda doesn't seem to have a clear line of succession, given the rites surrounding T'Challa's ascension to the throne. There's an expectation that the king's son (or maybe daughter, we don't know how equal Wakanda is in this regard) is next in line, but the heir apparent still has to defend their claim. Shuri is real competent at what she does, but I do not see her beating up M'Baku at Warrior Falls without any gadgets. Okoye might, though, but she does not seem like a person who *wants* to rule, and that's kind of demanded by the Wakandan traditions.



Well, it was a big point in the Black Panther movie that Killmonger was from the royal line.  Now, each of the tribes were given a chance, and M'Baku was accepted.  I wonder if each of the tribes has a royal line that is eligible to be Black Panther?


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Blue said:


> Well, it was a big point in the Black Panther movie that Killmonger was from the royal line.  Now, each of the tribes were given a chance, and M'Baku was accepted.  I wonder if each of the tribes has a royal line that is eligible to be Black Panther?



I figured that if M'Baku had won, he'd be something other than Black Panther, since his tribe's animal is the gorilla, not the panther.


----------



## Tonguez

Blue said:


> Well, it was a big point in the Black Panther movie that Killmonger was from the royal line.  Now, each of the tribes were given a chance, and M'Baku was accepted.  I wonder if each of the tribes has a royal line that is eligible to be Black Panther?




The Position of King of Wakanda and the role of Black Panther are not the same thing. Tchalla was already Black Panther when his father was King.

Canonically there are four Cults in Wakanda - the Panther Cult, White Gorilla Cult, Lion Cult and Crocodile Cult. The Black Panther is the Leader of the Panther Cult NOT necessirally the Leader of Wakanda.

Mbaku is chief of the Jabari Mountain Tribe who worship the Gorilla god
(the terms Man-Ape and Gorilla-Man are used in comics for leaders of the Gorilla cult, but I doubt they will ever be used in the movies)

In Wakanda History it was the leader of the Panther Tribe (the second Black Panther) who first discovered the Vibranium meteorite and became the first king of Wakanda and for that reason most Wakanda tribes follow the Panther Cult.
The Jabari tribe however refused to worship the Panther god and instead withdrew to the mountains where they could continue to follow the Gorilla cult.

The Lion Cult tried to win converts in Wakanda without much success and Sekhmet Her/Himself has manifested to challenged the Black Panther.
The Crocodile Cult is all but forgotten, I dont know of any adherents.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Overall, I liked this series. There were a few flaws, but I liked the ending and the messages that this show sends. 

On Sam:


Spoiler



I really liked Sam's character arc in this show. He really earns the title of Captain America, and his suit is awesome of heck. His style of fighting is unique and really cool, I especially love that he uses his wings to keep his balance and thrusters to help with his attacks and saving others. I wonder if/when the government will officially make him Captain America, which could come up if there's a second season to this series. I love what he does for Isaiah and how he takes his own path. His point on them building the country and being worthy of fighting for it is spot on, but I wish that he didn't have to do the fighting. What kind of a reward is it to have to work for your country in exchange for building it?



On Bucky:


Spoiler



I wish his character arc was a bit better and that we could see the reaction of the old man, but it's enough to know that he's made amends with what he was forced to do and can move on, while never forgetting the bad that he's done. I'm glad that he and Bucky were eventually able to become friends by the end of the series. He's Cap's buddy, both for the first Cap and the third Cap. If there's a second season, I hope that he gets a bit more of a character arc, possibly going more into him being the MCU's White Wolf, but this is a fine way to end the season.



On Walker: 


Spoiler



I liked his moment of slight redemption, and I'm excited to see what he does in the future. I'm assuming that they're going to lean more into the "man with good intentions but the wrong actions" in the future. He gave up revenge in order to save some lives, which makes him a "good guy" right now, but his future as a government agent may cause trouble for Sam and Bucky in the future. Especially if Sam doesn't officially become Captain America, which could cause them to go outside of the law a bit. Him giving up the claim to the title of Captain America is a good thing for the character, but I wonder if he doesn't hold a bit of a grudge towards Sam for it. It could make an interesting story for the second season, so I'm intrigued to see where this character goes.



On Karli and the Flag Smashers:


Spoiler



I don't know what to think of her ending. I'm assuming she actually dies and doesn't manage to survive/be revived, but with Marvel you never know. She seemed to be willing to give up other lives in order for her cause, but not her own life, and ends up paying for it. She also doesn't know when to back down. She probably could have survived if she surrendered to Sam, and that could have ended up revealing the identity of the Power Broker, but from a narrative standpoint it makes sense for her character to die. Villains that have a point are typically more drawing to me than pure evil/selfish ones. Zemo has a point about power corrupting and the abuse of symbols, the Flag Smashers have a point about the injustices done to them and those like them, and Isaiah (though not a villain, but certainly antagonistic at points) has a point about not wanting to fight for a country that doesn't fight for you. I wish that Karli had been a bit more idealistic and smart in her plan, but the character had to die for the story and her apology at the end makes up for it a bit. 

I think that the Flag Smashers are truly gone, but one can never be sure with Marvel. It was more than a bit anticlimactic for them to just die in an explosion out of nowhere. It seems like most of the people that get sent to the Raft either don't make it there alive, or don't stay there for long. Isn't Zemo basically the only person we know that is trapped there now that we know of? A villain prison facility with only one villain seems a bit strange.



On Sharon:


Spoiler



Yeah, it makes sense for her to be the Power Broker. It sucks for the characters that Karli didn't tell Sam about Sharon before dying, but that's bound to happen for narrative reasons. Sharon will almost definitely be the main villain of the next season, and I hope she shows a bit more of her villainous side in the next season, and hopefully a bit of flash-backs to show how she got there.


----------



## Alzrius

Okay, I tried going back and viewing this particular scene again, and I'm still not sure, so can someone confirm?



Spoiler



Did Sharon, in fact, shoot and kill Batroc?


----------



## Omand

Alzrius said:


> Okay, I tried going back and viewing this particular scene again, and I'm still not sure, so can someone confirm?
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Did Sharon, in fact, shoot and kill Batroc?




In answer, it is pretty dark ...



Spoiler: Alzrius Answer



But as near as I can tell yes.  She does fire her gun, and is pointed in his general direction.  Karli shoots her at the same time because it is a three-way standoff.



Cheers


----------



## trappedslider

so



Spoiler



the scene with Sam coming down out of the air cradling Kali's body can you say "Biblical imagery"?


 Over all I enjoyed even if i did know some of the stuff that would happen before hand thanks to discussion of the comics in this thread not put in spoiler blocks.


----------



## Umbran

trappedslider said:


> Over all I enjoyed even if i did know some of the stuff that would happen before hand thanks to discussion of the comics in this thread not put in spoiler blocks.




So, there's a lot of stuff from comics that _didn't_ happen, too.  Walker and the shield part ways in a completely different manner in the comics.  In the comics, the Power Broker plotline isn't just about super-soldier serum, and includes Ultimate Class Wrestling and addiction.


----------



## Umbran

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if/when the government will officially make him Captain America




That ship has totally sailed.  After the events of this episode, they don't really have a choice in the matter, especially after what happened with Walker.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> So the finale just came out....what did I think?
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> They made these group out to be a massive world spanning "cult", and at the end their master plan was to kidnap a few people and negotiate for more stuff.....that's it?
> 
> There is also the oddity with their ending. We got the guard saying "One World, One People" suggesting the movement will live on...but then everyone gets firebombed....suggesting they are really dead, so its unclear what they are going for there.





Spoiler






Spoiler



So, don't confuse political movements for cults.  

What they seem to be going for with that ending is removing the influence of super-powers on what happens with the recovery going forward.  The One World movement still exists (the guard at the truck shows us that), but will not be driven by superpowered individuals and their capability for violence.

Sam's opened the door for a something like an enlightened political approach with compromises on both sides.


----------



## hawkeyefan

I enjoyed it. A solid ending. They handled the matter of race in a way that worked and suited the story. 

Val is totally working to set up the Thunderbolts, right? Has to be. 

My only complaint would involve Sharon.  The heel turn on her part seems a bit much. But, I saw someone else online mention a possible explanation, and which i now think is spot on: she’s a skrull.

I believe I heard that they’ve already announced a new Cap movie. Of course. I think I almost prefer this kind of series now.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Tonguez said:


> Even from the Raft Zemo still rocks, though sad about Karli (is she really gone?)



Dragged off a on a gurney looked like leaving the door open to bringing her back to me.


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Did Sharon, in fact, shoot and kill Batroc?



Yes. She also had him released from prison in the previous episode. Again, not 100% confirmed dead though.


hawkeyefan said:


> The heel turn on her part seems a bit much. But, I saw someone else online mention a possible explanation, and which i now think is spot on: she’s a skrull.



I suggested that earlier in this thread (although I doubt I'm the only one!). It would make sense of the mysterious allies she is on the phone to.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Bucky: with just superstrength (and an apparently fairly modest vision thereof) he is rather dull in a fight. They need to give him back his sniper rifle and Winter Soldier gadgets next time round.


----------



## John R Davis

I enjoyed the series, but only just.
Didn't find Karli and her group very compelling. And I think that bugged me throughout so lessened it for me.
Found the fight scenes a bit dull. I guess there where ten heavy hitters but all they could was punch each other.
Those two things aside everything else was good with me.


----------



## Dire Bare

Umbran said:


> That ship has totally sailed.  After the events of this episode, they don't really have a choice in the matter, especially after what happened with Walker.



The episode shows Sam is willing to serve, and work with the government . . . but the cool thing is, he doesn't need the government's approval. I agree, they are likely to give it, but . . . Captain America doesn't work FOR the U.S. government anymore, he works WITH it.

I love how Isaiah wasn't wrong . . . "they'll never let there be a black Captain America" . . . and Sam just forced the issue and took the mantle on his own, with a little prodding from Bucky!

Does U.S. Agent work for the government now? It's implied, but . . . .


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> So, there's a lot of stuff from comics that _didn't_ happen, too.  Walker and the shield part ways in a completely different manner in the comics.  In the comics, the Power Broker plotline isn't just about super-soldier serum, and includes Ultimate Class Wrestling and addiction.



Yeah, Ultimate Class Wrestling was so a missed opportunity
could have done so much with Poundcakes and Butterball


----------



## Umbran

Dire Bare said:


> The episode shows Sam is willing to serve, and work with the government . . . but the cool thing is, he doesn't need the government's approval. I agree, they are likely to give it, but . . . Captain America doesn't work FOR the U.S. government anymore, he works WITH it.




Exactly - after what he's done on camera, in the eyes of the people he is Cap, whatever the government wants.



Dire Bare said:


> Does U.S. Agent work for the government now? It's implied, but . . . .




In the comics... Yeah, U.S. Agent is what the name implies, an agent of the government.

In the comics, the Contessa was a former top agent of SHIELD.  So, I'm expecting here she's actually working under the SWORD banner here, and we've already seen they aren't particularly nice people.


----------



## Marc_C

Spoiler: Spoiler



Is Batroc dead? He got shot but we didn't see his last gasp. I wonder.


----------



## MarkB

Marc_C said:


> Spoiler: Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Is Batroc dead? He got shot but we didn't see his last gasp. I wonder.





Spoiler



Sharon was wounded, but she had plenty of time and motivation to double-check him while Karli and Sam were fighting. No way she'd leave a loose end like that.


----------



## Tonguez

Falcon and the Winter Soldier creator Malcolm Spellman will co-write a fourth Captain America movie for Marvel Studios.


----------



## Marc_C

Tonguez said:


> Falcon and the Winter Soldier creator Malcolm Spellman will co-write a fourth Captain America movie for Marvel Studios.



"Spellman assembled a nearly all-Black writer's room for the series, which has been praised for bringing the Black experience to the forefront not quite like any other superhero film or TV show before it."

I guess the article writers never saw Black Lightning...


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Marc_C said:


> "Spellman assembled a nearly all-Black writer's room for the series, which has been praised for bringing the Black experience to the forefront not quite like any other superhero film or TV show before it."
> 
> I guess the article writers never saw Black Lightning...



The Arrowverse shows get very little credit, in general, so I'm not surprised.


----------



## hopeless

And after Batwoman that's not a shock!


----------



## MarkB

I can generally enjoy the first season-and-a-half of any given Arrowverse show, before they drown in angst. These days I just don't bother starting them.


----------



## Tonguez

MarkB said:


> I can generally enjoy the first season-and-a-half of any given Arrowverse show, before they drown in angst. These days I just don't bother starting them.



Yeah, The Flash started as my favourite show but by season 3 it had become unwatchable, Arrow went on way beyond its useby date and  Black Lightning became overwhelmed with is Black Cred.

I stopped watching the shows, only tuning in for a binge of the crossovers when I had nothing else to watch.

I did watch the first episode of cw’s Kung Fu, it was okay, more superhero than the Carradine version too, so it would fit in the Arrowverse


----------



## MoonSong

MarkB said:


> I can generally enjoy the first season-and-a-half of any given Arrowverse show, before they drown in angst. These days I just don't bother starting them.



I don't know I still find Legends of Tomorrow very fun and with only  some mandatory angst at two thirds of the season.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I have been going back over everything because I was sure one of the Flag Smashers simply vanished from the show, and I found it mentioned that one of them, Deigo, was actually captured/arrested, but I do not remember that. Does anyone else remember seeing that on the show? Because if that is accurate, that means there is still one super soldier not killed off. Is this just a plot hole that Marvel missed or will he return in some way in a future show or movie?


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I have been going back over everything because I was sure one of the Flag Smashers simply vanished from the show, and I found it mentioned that one of them, Deigo, was actually captured/arrested, but I do not remember that. Does anyone else remember seeing that on the show? Because if that is accurate, that means there is still one super soldier not killed off. Is this just a plot hole that Marvel missed or will he return in some way in a future show or movie?



Diego was the helicopter pilot who Sam dumped in the River when her was rescuing the GRC members. At the end Sam is asked to go and recover Diego from the river, but we dont actually see it - we can assume that Sam pulled Diego out and handed him over to the authorities.

We might presume that Diego will be sent to the Raft and may be recruited to a future team


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Tonguez said:


> Diego was the helicopter pilot who Sam dumped in the River when her was rescuing the GRC members. At the end Sam is asked to go and recover Diego from the river, but we dont actually see it - we can assume that Sam pulled Diego out and handed him over to the authorities.
> 
> We might presume that Diego will be sent to the Raft and may be recruited to a future team



Or he could have been delivered to the same car that exploded, right? Didn't Sam go to get him before the car left?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

No, that was Kovich flying the helicopter. Kovich and the other three were put on the truck that exploded. Diego seemed to disappear from the show an episode or two ago, which is why I am having trouble remembering him being captured.


----------



## MarkB

Stalker0 said:


> I will say it doesn't make any sense for Zemo to be in the raft, he's awesome but he's just a good operative, he's not packing super powers or anything.



The first time we saw the Raft, it was housing Sam, Clint, and Scott Lang. None of them have superpowers. In fact, the only superpowered person we've seen imprisoned there on-screen is Wanda, and I think it's fair to say that they're lucky they tried that on one of her off days.


----------



## Rune

hawkeyefan said:


> I enjoyed it. A solid ending. They handled the matter of race in a way that worked and suited the story.
> 
> Val is totally working to set up the Thunderbolts, right? Has to be.
> 
> My only complaint would involve Sharon.  The heel turn on her part seems a bit much. But, I saw someone else online mention a possible explanation, and which i now think is spot on: she’s a skrull.
> 
> I believe I heard that they’ve already announced a new Cap movie. Of course. I think I almost prefer this kind of series now.



Sharon isn’t a skrull. If she were, she wouldn’t have needed to use that mesh face-mask she disguised herself with (the kind Natasha used in Winter Soldier).


----------



## Tonguez

Rune said:


> Sharon isn’t a skrull. If she were, she wouldn’t have needed to use that mesh face-mask she disguised herself with (the kind Natasha used in Winter Soldier).



Unless that was a ploy so we think she isnt a Skrull


----------



## Imaculata

The ending was alright. Falcon's new costume is a bit much as the new Captain America, but I like that he keeps his Falcon wings as well. He'll make for a great next Cap.

The social commentary was way too heavy handed though. Sam was one step away from wagging his finger at the camera and saying _"Don't do drugs kids"_. Man, did that lecture go on and on. Plus, it is a bit rich having Captain America tell other countries to try and understand the motives of terrorists. You kind of weaken your message when you're obviously talking about America's foreign policy, but are too chicken to directly call out America itself.

The action was on point in this final episode, much most of it was way too dark to make out what was happening. It was like the final episode of Game of Thrones all over again. Why do they keep doing this? Surely they have an art director who's job it is specifically to check the final composition?

The final scene with the Power Broker is ominous, but not the big shocking reveal I was hoping for.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Rune said:


> Sharon isn’t a skrull. If she were, she wouldn’t have needed to use that mesh face-mask she disguised herself with (the kind Natasha used in Winter Soldier).



She did need it - in order to reveal herself without giving away that she was a skrull.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> She did need it - in order to reveal herself without giving away that she was a skrull.




This is exactly what a skrull would say, trying to give people a false scent!

We can never say never, of course, but I don't see a good story reason for her to be a skrull - the basic payoff for that will be "Aha!  I'm a skrull! which is kinda weak compared to a "fall from grace/redemption" arc.

Filming for _Secret Invasion_ hasn't even started yet, so setting up elements now might be a tad premature.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> Filming for _Secret Invasion_ hasn't even started yet, so setting up elements now might be a tad premature.



The have already started in the post-credits scenes from Spiderman Far From Home and Wandavision.


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> This is exactly what a skrull would say, trying to give people a false scent!
> 
> We can never say never, of course, but I don't see a good story reason for her to be a skrull - the basic payoff for that will be "Aha!  I'm a skrull! which is kinda weak compared to a "fall from grace/redemption" arc.



I think the reason people are looking for it is that, so far, her arc feels rather weak as it is. The character of Sharon has been poorly served by the unfolding narrative of the movies, basically amounting to "hey, we maybe need a love interest for Captain America at some point if we get round to it, so let's drop her into a couple of his movies and throw around a bit of sexual tension. Oh, what's that, main Avengers timeline? That ship has not only sailed but headed off into the sunset? Ah well, guess we'll make her a villain then."

The Blip once again shows up as this gaping hole in the development of multiple characters and global events across two TV series, which leaves us scratching our heads as to how things got from there to here.


----------



## Maxperson

Stalker0 said:


> There is also the oddity with their ending. We got the guard saying "One World, One People" suggesting the movement will live on...but then everyone gets firebombed....suggesting they are really dead, so its unclear what they are going for there.



Yeah.  I think that was deliberate.  They left us to guess whether Zemo killed them with a bomb somehow or whether the guard faked their deaths and they will return another time.


Stalker0 said:


> I continue to like Sam's unique style. The moment where he took a super soldier's punch on the shield but sticking his wings into the ground for support was very cool.



It wasn't just the wings.  The shield absorbs kinetic energy, so he was getting a reduced punch even before he had to use his wings.


----------



## Maxperson

Omand said:


> In answer, it is pretty dark ...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Alzrius Answer
> 
> 
> 
> But as near as I can tell yes.  She does fire her gun, and is pointed in his general direction.  Karli shoots her at the same time because it is a three-way standoff.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers



Yeah.  That's what I saw, but it was a very stupid thing to do.  Just tell him yes and then kill him later with the, "I don't do blackmail." line.  To move your gun off of the main threat who has a gun aimed at you and shoot him was..................................terrible and not something a person who rose to that level in a criminal kingdom would do.  Loved the episode, but that part was just bad.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  I think that was deliberate.  They left us to guess whether Zemo killed them with a bomb somehow or whether the guard faked their deaths and they will return another time.




I am pretty sure that guard was working for Zemo and said that to make sure they would not try to escape before the bomb went off.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> The have already started in the post-credits scenes from Spiderman Far From Home and Wandavision.




Those are setting up Captain Marvel 2.


----------



## Maxperson

Rune said:


> Sharon isn’t a skrull. If she were, she wouldn’t have needed to use that mesh face-mask she disguised herself with (the kind Natasha used in Winter Soldier).



I don't think she's a skrull, either, but for the sake of argument...   If you were a skrull posing as Sharon and were planning on sneaking in disguised as someone else, planning to reveal yourself to Sam, you wouldn't use your skrull powers to do it.  That would just let Sam know that you were a skrull.


----------



## Maxperson

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am pretty sure that guard was working for Zemo and said that to make sure they would not try to escape before the bomb went off.



Try to escape in the 20 feet the truck went before exploding?  Anyway, it might have been Zemo or it might not.  The guard's words made it vague enough that they can go either way with it in a future show or movie.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> The have already started in the post-credits scenes from Spiderman Far From Home and Wandavision.




Or... have they?

Here's my current thinking - this is all far to simple and pat.  They set up Skrulls... as friends.  Long ahead of time, they call a series "Secret Invasion", after the comic series.  So, we _ALL KNOW_ what's coming...

Where's the fun in that?  No darned surprise at all there.

It almost seems like when they cast Evan Peters in WandaVision.  Total fakeout.

There's also the rather simple possibility that Sharon is under very deep cover.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Imaculata said:


> The social commentary was way too heavy handed though.



It wasn’t even mildly heavy handed. It was literally just the bare, unembellished, truth. There were no conversations in that entire show that didn’t ring true to me even just as a Hispanic white guy who knows a lot of Black folks. 

It’s hard to get into without pushing the line of the forum rules, but...yeah the social commentary was on point. A lot of it at first felt like they were kind of skirting around things, and then it got a lot more real by episode 5.


----------



## hawkeyefan

doctorbadwolf said:


> It wasn’t even mildly heavy handed. It was literally just the bare, unembellished, truth. There were no conversations in that entire show that didn’t ring true to me even just as a Hispanic white guy who knows a lot of Black folks.
> 
> It’s hard to get into without pushing the line of the forum rules, but...yeah the social commentary was on point. A lot of it at first felt like they were kind of skirting around things, and then it got a lot more real by episode 5.




I didn’t find it heavy handed either. It felt pretty appropriate for the type of show this is, and was pretty important to the characters and concepts in the story. 

Also, super heroes are inherently about social commentary and ideas of right and wrong. It always seems odd to me when folks push back against that kind of content in superhero stories.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

hawkeyefan said:


> I didn’t find it heavy handed either. It felt pretty appropriate for the type of show this is, and was pretty important to the characters and concepts in the story.
> 
> Also, super heroes are inherently about social commentary and ideas of right and wrong. It always seems odd to me when folks push back against that kind of content in superhero stories.



Yep. That kind of social commentary is especially what Captain America is about, too, so it should be no surprise that when Sam’ Cap is the focus of the show, there is no “both sides” waffling or skirting around issues of race. 

In the comics Sam stopped a group of “border militia” domestic terrorists who were kidnapping undocumented immigrants, and when he was criticized for “taking a side” in a “political issue” he rejected the premise and went about doing his job. Because Cap is about equality, fairness, and standing up to systems of oppression and those who create and perpetuate them.

Cap was created to symbolically show America rejecting and fighting fascism, at a time when there was an American Fascist Party holding rallies, and people in Congress who were sympathetic to their arguments.


----------



## Omand

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  I think that was deliberate.  They left us to guess whether Zemo killed them with a bomb somehow or whether the guard faked their deaths and they will return another time.
> 
> It wasn't just the wings.  The shield absorbs kinetic energy, so he was getting a reduced punch even before he had to use his wings.



Except I do not think there is any ambiguity or misdirection in that scene.



Spoiler: Bombing Scene



We see the man with his finger on the trigger of the bomb.  It is Zemo's butler/valet.  He is the one sitting in the car overlooking the prisoner convoy with the remote in hand as we watch it pull away, and then the scene goes to directly on his face as he folds up the remote to put it away.

I think we use Occam's Razor here.  The US Navy guard was indeed a supporter of the Flagsmashers, and giving them reassurance that the fight would continue.  In fact, you could even say he was letting them know they would have friends inside when they got to The Raft.  Perhaps the showrunners meant us to think that meant there would be a scene with the Flagsmashers being broken out.  But then they pull the fast switch by having everything blow up in flames seconds later.

Now, to be truly effective TV/film I think they needed to either give a beat or two more there before the explosion, or to have it happen in a subsequent scene (perhaps on the way to The Raft in a helicopter).  They definitely needed to not show the finger on the trigger of the bomb right away if the intention was to shock or surprise us as viewers.



Cheers 

[Edited for spelling]


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> No, that was Kovich flying the helicopter. Kovich and the other three were put on the truck that exploded. Diego seemed to disappear from the show an episode or two ago, which is why I am having trouble remembering him being captured.




Watched again and got the two names mixed up, so yeah, Diego was in the helicopter, but also not in the truck when it exploded. My missing Flag Smasher was Lennox. He was the one gassed by Sharon in the parking garage. So 7 dead and 1 in custody. I think the radio announcement of 4 killed in the truck bomb was to hide the fact that Diego is still alive. After all, the government needs someone new to experiment on in order make more serum.


----------



## Omand

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Watched again and got the two names mixed up, so yeah, Diego was in the helicopter, but also not in the truck when it exploded. My missing Flag Smasher was Lennox. He was the one gassed by Sharon in the parking garage. So 7 dead and 1 in custody. I think the radio announcement of 4 killed in the truck bomb was to hide the fact that Diego is still alive. After all, the government needs someone new to experiment on in order make more serum.



Still could be 4 dead in the truck bomb.  Not sure how the driver could walk away from that.

I actually would have expected at least 5 dead, as usually there is a driver and a guard in the cab for that type of prisoner transport.

Cheers


----------



## Older Beholder

I enjoyed this series far more than expected, I'm probably repeating myself from previous posts but I was surprised at the level of depth it showed.

I'm happy where they went with Walker in the last episode. He had several cool moments and is nicely set up to walk the line between redemption and heel turn in future shows/movies.

Sam is a fantastic Captain America. Part Angel, part Bald Eagle   
Happy to hear he'll get his own movie. 

Now we just have to wait a month for Loki to begin. Pretty excited for that!


----------



## Maxperson

I'm also wondering why Sharon would lead them to the guy that was making the serum for her and let them kill him.  That also doesn't seem like a very Power Broker thing to do.


----------



## Imaculata

doctorbadwolf said:


> It wasn’t even mildly heavy handed. It was literally just the bare, unembellished, truth. There were no conversations in that entire show that didn’t ring true to me even just as a Hispanic white guy who knows a lot of Black folks.




I was talking about how Sam is literally lecturing to the camera in the final episode, not the way it was handled in other episodes.

In previous episodes, they were more subtle about it. If the viewer was paying attention, the subject matter was pretty clear. Although referring to the main character as uncle Sam was a bit on the nose. 

But in the final episode he literally turns to the camera and says: "Look, this is what the show is about", and that rubbed me the wrong way. It is as if they underestimated the intelligence of their audience. As if they had to explain it to the two people on the planet who didn't get it, and it undermined my enjoyment.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> I'm also wondering why Sharon would lead them to the guy that was making the serum for her and let them kill him.  That also doesn't seem like a very Power Broker thing to do.



It’s almost like humans, even those who are extremely competent and intelligent, aren’t wholly logical.

But she had no reason to think it would end like it did.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Imaculata said:


> I was talking about how Sam is literally lecturing to the camera in the final episode, not the way it was handled in other episodes.
> 
> In previous episodes, they were more subtle about it. If the viewer was paying attention, the subject matter was pretty clear. Although referring to the main character as uncle Sam was a bit on the nose.
> 
> But in the final episode he literally turns to the camera and says: "Look, this is what the show is about", and that rubbed me the wrong way. It is as if they underestimated the intelligence of their audience. As if they had to explain it to the two people on the planet who didn't get it, and it undermined my enjoyment.



He literally does not do that. He lectures a bunch of powerful people about the BS they’d been pulling, and how they were aggressively refusing to learn the lesson.


----------



## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> It’s almost like humans, even those who are extremely competent and intelligent, aren’t wholly logical.
> 
> But she had no reason to think it would end like it did.



I'm pretty sure that she knew who Zemo was.  That's pretty good reason I think.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> I'm pretty sure that she knew who Zemo was.  That's pretty good reason I think.



Eh, I disagree, but it doesn’t really matter, does it? Sharon isn’t perfect, she makes mistakes due to attachments to people. Good. That’s a better character than she’d be otherwise.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> Or... have they?
> 
> Here's my current thinking - this is all far to simple and pat.  They set up Skrulls... as friends.



Talos is a friend. No reason to suppose all skrulls are nice. Just like anyone else, they can be good or evil.


----------



## Stalker0

Maxperson said:


> I'm also wondering why Sharon would lead them to the guy that was making the serum for her and let them kill him.  That also doesn't seem like a very Power Broker thing to do.



Yeah I had forgotten that! Yeah it feels like you could have supplied them with fake intel and when it didn't work out...well, hey that's how it goes in the intel game sometimes.


----------



## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> I'm also wondering why Sharon would lead them to the guy that was making the serum for her and let them kill him.  That also doesn't seem like a very Power Broker thing to do.



My initial assumption was that she was using them to tie up loose ends, having already obtained copies of the doctor's research notes. It was a good way to give them a lead on the Flag Smashers' without the information originating from her.

However, that doesn't add up given that she states in the post-credits scene that supersoldier serum is off the menu. At this point I'd guess that she's either concluded that the stuff's not worth the trouble it causes, or she's got other plans for it than putting it on the market.


----------



## MarkB

Imaculata said:


> But in the final episode he literally turns to the camera and says: "Look, this is what the show is about", and that rubbed me the wrong way. It is as if they underestimated the intelligence of their audience. As if they had to explain it to the two people on the planet who didn't get it, and it undermined my enjoyment.



If only it was just a couple of people.


----------



## Nilbog

MarkB said:


> My initial assumption was that she was using them to tie up loose ends, having already obtained copies of the doctor's research notes. It was a good way to give them a lead on the Flag Smashers' without the information originating from her.
> 
> However, that doesn't add up given that she states in the post-credits scene that supersoldier serum is off the menu. At this point I'd guess that she's either concluded that the stuff's not worth the trouble it causes, or she's got other plans for it than putting it on the market.




It's difficult to comprehend, the way I see it is that the serum is too much hassle (unpredictable and can give too much power to those she can't control) so she'd rather no one have it, and by her actions so fully ingratiated herself with Sam and Bucky leading to her new and more profitable role


----------



## Maxperson

Nilbog said:


> It's difficult to comprehend, the way I see it is that the serum is too much hassle (unpredictable and can give too much power to those she can't control) so she'd rather no one have it, and by her actions so fully ingratiated herself with Sam and Bucky leading to her new and more profitable role



Except that in the last episode, she was still trying really hard to get Carly and the others to come back to the fold.


----------



## Imaculata

doctorbadwolf said:


> He literally does not do that. He lectures a bunch of powerful people about the BS they’d been pulling, and how they were aggressively refusing to learn the lesson.




But I think you understand what I'm saying. He was only a hairpin away from winking at the audience and telling us not to do drugs either. It wasn't necessary. Anyone who watched the show up to this point should have already understood what the show was about, without Sam literally telling us, as he did in that scene.

It was like Sam was saying: 

_"Hey audience! This show is about racism, the American identity and America's destructive foreign policy! Please pay attention while I hit you over the head with the obvious."_

_"Also, it is totally uncool what you've been doing in foreign countries America, but I'm going to tell OTHER countries how bad they've been. But I think we all know what country I'm really talking about. Wink! Wink!"_

To me, this undo's a lot of the subtlety that the show had been building on up to now. It makes it into one of those annoying GI Joe PSA's that you'd see at the end of every episode. Now you know. And knowing is half the battle! _-cue music-_


----------



## Nilbog

Maxperson said:


> Except that in the last episode, she was still trying really hard to get Carly and the others to come back to the fold.




True but I somewhat rationalised that as being the fact that because the super serum no longer exists (that we know of) it makes the jacked up flag smashers even more of a valuable commodity, and potentially down the line should carter want to get back into the super serum business, she could use their blood as a starting point to make more serum


----------



## Janx

Imaculata said:


> But I think you understand what I'm saying. He was only a hairpin away from winking at the audience and telling us not to do drugs either. It wasn't necessary. Anyone who watched the show up to this point should have already understood what the show was about, without Sam literally telling us, as he did in that scene.
> 
> It was like Sam was saying:
> 
> _"Hey audience! This show is about racism, the American identity and America's destructive foreign policy! Please pay attention while I hit you over the head with the obvious."
> 
> "Also, it is totally uncool what you've been doing in foreign countries America, but I'm going to tell OTHER countries how bad they've been. But I think we all know what country I'm really talking about. Wink! Wink!"_
> 
> To me, this undo's a lot of the subtlety that the show had been building on up to now. It makes it into one of those annoying GI Joe PSA's that you'd see at the end of every episode. Now you know. And knowing is half the battle! _-cue music-_



You do realize upthread, there was a guy insisting the bank scene wasn't about racism because nobody said or did anything overtly racist, right?

That speech was for them.


----------



## Umbran

Imaculata said:


> It wasn't necessary. Anyone who watched the show up to this point should have already understood what the show was about..




Given the outright denial of the presence of racism we had in this very thread, I find this assessment... poorly considered.  

Try an experiment.  Think to yourself, "It wasn't necessary _for me_." Then, acknolwedging that it isnt' all about you, we can consider what that scene was really about, and who it was really for...

Captain America is about more than really great punching.  Cap's powers aren't just about shield-slinging.  His base superpower is his ability to be on the right side of any moral question.  Walker failed at being Captain America because he lacks this power.  In a narrative sense, Sam needed to display this power before he could really fully take on the mantle.

Beyond that, whether you needed it or not, the folks who deny racism needed this scene.  

And, vastly more importantly, young viewers need this scene.  Not because they don't get it - I daresay most of them get it better than we older viewers do.  No matter their skin color, those younger viewers need to see an African American hero speaking moral truth to power.  That _absolutely needs to happen_ for the overall story to not betray it's own ethos.  

"Be quiet Sam, we don't need to be told this," is about the most ironic bit of critique that could be made of this piece.  I mean, the Senator he's talking to tries that line... and clearly he was wrong.

So, probably when we say the same thing, we are wrong too.


----------



## wicked cool

Honestly we dont need this scene

Put on the news its 24/7 wall to wall coverage every night

I don't need it bashed over my head during my television etc (it turns into propaganda). Black Panther worked as a hero for the opposite reasons. Batwoman isn't working for the same reasons that eventually Falcon wont. Im happy hes Captain America but I want to see him fight non political bad guys ( I really want them to fight known comic book character villians not made up  lessor known flag smashers)


I might be the guy on the banking argument- you do realize if falcon looks like Steve rogers hes still not getting the loan
he has no assets, no money, probably not great credit (no credit is bad credit) etc. Banks are into low risk/high reward customers. We went through this as a world in the last recession. The governments then placed huge regulations on banks for lending etc (this effort was led by the more progressive players in politics). Its even hard now than it was last year due to covid. Good luck trying to open a brand new restaurant or any new business. What will happen is they will steer you towards a high interest credit card


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> Given the outright denial of the presence of racism we had in this very thread, I find this assessment... poorly considered.
> 
> Try an experiment.  Think to yourself, "It wasn't necessary _for me_." Then, acknolwedging that it isnt' all about you, we can consider what that scene was really about, and who it was really for...
> 
> Captain America is about more than really great punching.  Cap's powers aren't just about shield-slinging.  His base superpower is his ability to be on the right side of any moral question.  Walker failed at being Captain America because he lacks this power.  In a narrative sense, Sam needed to display this power before he could really fully take on the mantle.
> 
> Beyond that, whether you needed it or not, the folks who deny racism needed this scene.
> 
> And, vastly more importantly, young viewers need this scene.  Not because they don't get it - I daresay most of them get it better than we older viewers do.  No matter their skin color, those younger viewers need to see an African American hero speaking moral truth to power.  That _absolutely needs to happen_ for the overall story to not betray it's own ethos.
> 
> "Be quiet Sam, we don't need to be told this," is about the most ironic bit of critique that could be made of this piece.  I mean, the Senator he's talking to tries that line... and clearly he was wrong.
> 
> So, probably when we say the same thing, we are wrong too.



This. 

Well said.


----------



## Sacrosanct

Imaculata said:


> But I think you understand what I'm saying. He was only a hairpin away from winking at the audience and telling us not to do drugs either. It wasn't necessary. Anyone who watched the show up to this point should have already understood what the show was about, without Sam literally telling us, as he did in that scene.
> 
> It was like Sam was saying:
> 
> _"Hey audience! This show is about racism, the American identity and America's destructive foreign policy! Please pay attention while I hit you over the head with the obvious."
> 
> "Also, it is totally uncool what you've been doing in foreign countries America, but I'm going to tell OTHER countries how bad they've been. But I think we all know what country I'm really talking about. Wink! Wink!"_
> 
> To me, this undo's a lot of the subtlety that the show had been building on up to now. It makes it into one of those annoying GI Joe PSA's that you'd see at the end of every episode. Now you know. And knowing is half the battle! _-cue music-_



Not to dogpile, but I agree with Umbran and Janx.  Look who the target is for that statement.  I think it really did need to be that obvious.  And I'm betting even with it being that obvious, there are still a lot of people who needed to hear that message that still won't get it.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

wicked cool said:


> Honestly we dont need this scene
> 
> Put on the news its 24/7 wall to wall coverage every night
> 
> I don't need it bashed over my head during my television etc (it turns into propaganda). Black Panther worked as a hero for the opposite reasons. Batwoman isn't working for the same reasons that eventually Falcon wont. Im happy hes Captain America but I want to see him fight non political bad guys ( I really want them to fight known comic book character villians not made up  lessor known flag smashers)
> 
> 
> I might be the guy on the banking argument- you do realize if falcon looks like Steve rogers hes still not getting the loan
> he has no assets, no money, probably not great credit (no credit is bad credit) etc. Banks are into low risk/high reward customers. We went through this as a world in the last recession. The governments then placed huge regulations on banks for lending etc (this effort was led by the more progressive players in politics). Its even hard now than it was last year due to covid. Good luck trying to open a brand new restaurant or any new business. What will happen is they will steer you towards a high interest credit card



Captain America is political, and always has been. He was literally created to encourage Americans to oppose fascism. 

I have white friends who started businesses this year, one a restaurant. They got loans no problem. 

I work in auto parts. We had a record breaking year last year. We had never made 500k in a month before, and we made over that every single month from March to March. This month it will probably be slightly under that.

In spite of that, I know 6 different Black mechanics, all with good credit, and I know that because they passed the credit check to get the best credit available from us when they gave up on opening a proper shop and got a business license as a “mobile mechanic” instead.

You seem to think that the banking system isn’t racist. You are factually incorrect.

That is why the bank scene plays out that way, because Steve Rogers would absolutely get that loan.


----------



## billd91

wicked cool said:


> Honestly we dont need this scene
> 
> Put on the news its 24/7 wall to wall coverage every night
> 
> I don't need it bashed over my head during my television etc (it turns into propaganda). Black Panther worked as a hero for the opposite reasons. Batwoman isn't working for the same reasons that eventually Falcon wont. Im happy hes Captain America but I want to see him fight non political bad guys ( I really want them to fight known comic book character villians not made up  lessor known flag smashers)



Flag Smasher first appeared in 1985 as Karl Morgenthau. So it's not like the antagonist was unknown, just adapted.


----------



## Sacrosanct

doctorbadwolf said:


> Captain America is political, and always has been. He was literally created to encourage Americans to oppose fascism.
> 
> I have white friends who started businesses this year, one a restaurant. They got loans no problem.
> 
> I work in auto parts. We had a record breaking year last year. We had never made 500k in a month before, and we made over that every single month from March to March. This month it will probably be slightly under that.
> 
> In spite of that, I know 6 different Black mechanics, all with good credit, and I know that because they passed the credit check to get the best credit available from us when they gave up on opening a proper shop and got a business license as a “mobile mechanic” instead.
> 
> You seem to think that the banking system isn’t racist. You are factually incorrect.
> 
> That is why the bank scene plays out that way, because Steve Rogers would absolutely get that loan.



I work in banking (the tech side, but still).  The term you're looking for is "redlining", and it very much was a big deal.  There have been laws enacted to combat redlining, but it's still a thing, and very much is a big reason for setting up the playing field unfairly.


----------



## Imaculata

Umbran said:


> Given the outright denial of the presence of racism we had in this very thread, I find this assessment... poorly considered.
> 
> Try an experiment.  Think to yourself, "It wasn't necessary _for me_." Then, acknolwedging that it isnt' all about you, we can consider what that scene was really about, and who it was really for...




It's not that I disagree with the message being send. Quite the opposite, I think it is a very important message, especially in America right now.

However, I don't like being preached to. And that is exactly what the final episode did. Perhaps I wasn't the intended target of the preaching, but I sure was part of the audience receiving it.



Umbran said:


> Beyond that, whether you needed it or not, the folks who deny racism needed this scene.




Perhaps. But did the show need to become this preachy? And doesn't the strength of the show lie in allowing the audience to come to their own conclusion, rather than telling them what their conclusion should be?

I really appreciated that the bank scene was not quite so overt. It was powerful in showing how subtle racism can be. It provoked discussion, right here on this board, regarding what was really going on. And discussion of this topic is good in my view. It allows the audience to explore the subject; to think about it, and reach their own conclusion, without being told what to think.


----------



## Zaukrie

I liked, didn't love, the series. It felt too much, for my enjoyment, a set-up, not a story with any kind of end. Which it was...... But even books in series have natural end points. This didn't feel that way too me. Others will disagree, that's cool. Also, I really struggled with the whole, where are the other heros when the grc was threatened, which I get is irrational while watching this kind of show.....I liked the overall tone. I liked alot, I just didn't love alot.


----------



## Umbran

wicked cool said:


> Honestly we dont need this scene




I'd like to ask - Who is "we"?


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Sacrosanct said:


> I work in banking (the tech side, but still).  The term you're looking for is "redlining", and it very much was a big deal.  There have been laws enacted to combat redlining, but it's still a thing, and very much is a big reason for setting up the playing field unfairly.



Absolutely. I see it in hiring at my company as well. I’ve seen Black folks apply, time and again, very qualified, very experienced, and nothing. I don’t think there is a single Black employee at my company in my district of 20 stores.


----------



## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> Absolutely. I see it in hiring at my company as well. I’ve seen Black folks apply, time and again, very qualified, very experienced, and nothing. I don’t think there is a single Black employee at my company in my district of 20 stores.



Whistleblow.


----------



## Maxperson

Imaculata said:


> It's not that I disagree with the message being send. Quite the opposite, I think it is a very important message, especially in America right now.
> 
> However, I don't like being preached to. And that is exactly what the final episode did. Perhaps I wasn't the intended target of the preaching, but I sure was part of the audience receiving it.



This.  I keep myself informed, but I go to my entertainment to get away from real world issues(assuming I'm not picking a documentary or something to see an issue).  I stopped watching the Oscars when every other speech was about a pet political view. I stopped watching football games in which saw players kneel.  If they make a Captain America with Sam I will stop watching it if it's as political as this one.  There are many avenues to get the word out and in my entertainment is not one that I will accept.


----------



## Sacrosanct

Imaculata said:


> However, I don't like being preached to. And that is exactly what the final episode did. Perhaps I wasn't the intended target of the preaching, but I sure was part of the audience receiving it.



Part being the key word here.  You're not the entire audience.  And if you don't think the scene was applicable to you, then you were not in fact being preached to; that scene wasn't directed at you.  

Certainly you can just let that scene slide since you acknowledge that it very much was needed for a large part of the audience not you, right?  Take one for the team, so to speak?  Not take it personally?


----------



## wicked cool

Umbran said:


> I'd like to ask - Who is "we"?



when the ratings go up or down its a "we". the we is the reason Dr who ratings went into the toilet , its the reason batwoman is in the toilet, star trek not resonating in ratings

this is both sides fyi-Politicians don't like a certain person on tv the try and threaten the advertisers . advertisers then have to weigh the risks of losing money 

if certain we's don't like you they destroy you on twitter and you basically become a modern day wicth or scarlet letter

the nba tried this last year and the rating went down. football is trying to grasp it /baseball is avoiding it
the whole world just watched what happens when you mess with soccer (unrelated but same principle as its a "we" )
when the Oscars/awards how started politics etc the ratings went down

back to the real world here- the steve rogers guy goes to the bank to open his autobody shop-no questions asked? im calling BS on this

first thing -Steve rogers gets a credit check. strike one and maybe the only 1 if its bad. in many situations what happens is people who have good credit and live in areas not as privedleged get taken advantage of by older family members when they are of credit age .Same goes if employment especially if he wants to work in finance. If you cant manager your own money they don't want you managing theirs

Steve rogers wants to open a handburger stand and wants to buy the stand from the current owner (lets say its tony stark). Tony wants money down and a contract. If Steve goes to the bank he presents tax returns and assets statements. If those are empty hes not getting the loan unless the government backs 1/2 the loan and then its a short term loan which is done through a bank

If this was a major problem (in the us as I cant speak for overseas) then we would know about it

Redlining is a crime
theres thousands of these types of crime-Its fairly easy for these banks to get caught and they would pay huge penalties for doing this. we are no longer living in the wild west

exact opposite-we in the usa have institutions of higher learning (top ivy league) delibertly limiting a certain race  (because they would most likely be the majority race in these institutions. that's racism!


----------



## billd91

wicked cool said:


> when the ratings go up or down its a "we". the we is the reason Dr who ratings went into the toilet , its the reason batwoman is in the toilet, star trek not resonating in ratings
> 
> this is both sides fyi-Politicians don't like a certain person on tv the try and threaten the advertisers . advertisers then have to weigh the risks of losing money
> 
> if certain we's don't like you they destroy you on twitter and you basically become a modern day wicth or scarlet letter
> 
> the nba tried this last year and the rating went down. football is trying to grasp it /baseball is avoiding it
> the whole world just watched what happens when you mess with soccer (unrelated but same principle as its a "we" )
> when the Oscars/awards how started politics etc the ratings went down



So basically, you're saying the declines are because of backlash from misogynist and racist white guys when women and/or black people start acting like they have a voice in things?


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> Also, I really struggled with the whole, where are the other heros when the grc was threatened



Well, Tony's dead, Natasha's dead, Bruce is recovering from having channelled the infinity stones to save half the universe, Thor and Captain Marvel are off-world, Clint is retired again, Wanda's in a log cabin dealing with her own issues, Vision 2.0 also has some issues to work out, T'Challa is presumably sorting out some things in Wakanda.

I guess Rhodie could've showed up, if anyone gave him a call?


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> Whistleblow.



You ever been homeless? _You _whistleblow.


----------



## Umbran

Imaculata said:


> Perhaps. But did the show need to become this preachy?




Define "need".  I mean, the show didn't "need" to exist at all.  We don't _need_ to have superhero shows.  Or even television!  The world got on for centuries without these things, so we don't "need" them.  

Ergo, none of this is about "need".  It is about something else.

Do you "need" to reject their being preachy?



Imaculata said:


> And doesn't the strength of the show lie in allowing the audience to come to their own conclusion, rather than telling them what their conclusion should be?




No.  

I mean, just limiting the show to having one "the strength" is a pretty narrow view of what is of valuable in fiction.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

wicked cool said:


> when the ratings go up or down its a "we". the we is the reason Dr who ratings went into the toilet , its the reason batwoman is in the toilet, star trek not resonating in ratings
> 
> this is both sides fyi-Politicians don't like a certain person on tv the try and threaten the advertisers . advertisers then have to weigh the risks of losing money
> 
> if certain we's don't like you they destroy you on twitter and you basically become a modern day wicth or scarlet letter
> 
> the nba tried this last year and the rating went down. football is trying to grasp it /baseball is avoiding it
> the whole world just watched what happens when you mess with soccer (unrelated but same principle as its a "we" )
> when the Oscars/awards how started politics etc the ratings went down
> 
> back to the real world here- the steve rogers guy goes to the bank to open his autobody shop-no questions asked? im calling BS on this
> 
> first thing -Steve rogers gets a credit check. strike one and maybe the only 1 if its bad. in many situations what happens is people who have good credit and live in areas not as privedleged get taken advantage of by older family members when they are of credit age .Same goes if employment especially if he wants to work in finance. If you cant manager your own money they don't want you managing theirs
> 
> Steve rogers wants to open a handburger stand and wants to buy the stand from the current owner (lets say its tony stark). Tony wants money down and a contract. If Steve goes to the bank he presents tax returns and assets statements. If those are empty hes not getting the loan unless the government backs 1/2 the loan and then its a short term loan which is done through a bank
> 
> If this was a major problem (in the us as I cant speak for overseas) then we would know about it
> 
> Redlining is a crime
> theres thousands of these types of crime-Its fairly easy for these banks to get caught and they would pay huge penalties for doing this. we are no longer living in the wild west
> 
> exact opposite-we in the usa have institutions of higher learning (top ivy league) delibertly limiting a certain race  (because they would most likely be the majority race in these institutions. that's racism!



It's okay, guys! This dude solved racism! It's a crime, so it doesn't happen!


----------



## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> You ever been homeless? _You _whistleblow.



It can be anonymous. With 20 stores they'll have no idea who it was.  And with the protections, you get rich if they do find out and fire you.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> It can be anonymous. With 20 stores they'll have no idea who it was.  And with the protections, you get rich if they do find out and fire you.




I don't have any idea how it would even work, or where to start, but tell ya what, I will do some research on it. 

I honestly hadn't realized how much it bothers me until this conversation, tbh. 

At least the couple of co-workers who definitely treated Black customers differently, being far less likely to be willing to go out of their way for them, or give them the benefit of the doubt, etc, have been fired over the last few months.


----------



## Sacrosanct

billd91 said:


> So basically, you're saying the declines are because of backlash from misogynist and racist white guys when women and/or black people start acting like they have a voice in things?



The reference to Dr. Who was a dead give away.  Pretty big red flag there.


----------



## Maxperson

billd91 said:


> So basically, you're saying the declines are because of backlash from misogynist and racist white guys when women and/or black people start acting like they have a voice in things?



Or people like me who just don't want to see the stuff they deal with on a daily basis being in their entertainment.  But your attempt to label it as automatically misogynist and racist to not want it in the entertainment is right in line with what he said.  Well done.


----------



## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> I don't have any idea how it would even work, or where to start, but tell ya what, I will do some research on it.



You should.  20 stores with no black employees, especially when you've seen many qualified black applicants, seems very much like a federal violation to me.  


doctorbadwolf said:


> I honestly hadn't realized how much it bothers me until this conversation, tbh.



Sometimes talking about something is the best way to get clarity about how you feel.  


doctorbadwolf said:


> At least the couple of co-workers who definitely treated Black customers differently, being far less likely to be willing to go out of their way for them, or give them the benefit of the doubt, etc, have been fired over the last few months.



At least that's good.


----------



## billd91

Maxperson said:


> You should.  20 stores with no black employees, especially when you've seen many qualified black applicants, seems very much like a federal violation to me.



I wonder if any of the applicants were named "Shaniqua"?


----------



## Sacrosanct

Maxperson said:


> Or people like me who just don't want to see the stuff they deal with on a daily basis being in their entertainment.  But your attempt to label it as automatically misogynist and racist to not want it in the entertainment is right in line with what he said.  Well done.



automatically?  Perhaps not.  But when Jodie Whittaker got the role of the Dr., there was a pretty big backlash among male viewers who were upset.  The same male viewers who filled up the interwebs with joy that the ratings dropped as punishment for hiring a woman in a man's traditional role*.  Celebrating how "we" sent a message to the woke folks that "go woke, go broke".**

So they aren't really off base all that much, and it's a pretty safe bet, even if there are exceptions. 


*That completely ignored how the rating fell with Peter Capaldi, not Josie, but accuracy doesn't really stop jerks from being jerks. 

** another very common phrase that _also _isn't true, but doesn't stop people from using it.


----------



## wicked cool

Like I said if I need to be educated I have world leaders schools and 24/7news

So if people switch the station or choose to watch something else or even say please stop hammering me over the head then it’s my fault the show tanks in the rating

the oscars hit a new low in ratings this year (even less than last year)

now this weekend I watched Brooklyn’s finest. It’s about crooked cops and racism. It was entertains, their was a message but it was more of a subtle message

it certainly wasn’t new trek, new Star Wars, new who etc destroying lore on it way towards a political message

if these messages were wanted well then ratings would soar

if everyone wanted cop bashing then oscars ratings should improve


----------



## doctorbadwolf

billd91 said:


> I wonder if any of the applicants were named "Shaniqua"?



I honestly doubt they'd even get an interview.


Sacrosanct said:


> automatically?  Perhaps not.  But when Jodie Whittaker got the role of the Dr., there was a pretty big backlash among male viewers who were upset.  The same male viewers who filled up the interwebs with joy that the ratings dropped as punishment for hiring a woman in a man's traditional role*.  Celebrating how "we" sent a message to the woke folks that "go woke, go broke".**
> 
> So they aren't really off base all that much, and it's a pretty safe bet, even if there are exceptions.
> 
> 
> *That completely ignored how the rating fell with Peter Capaldi, not Josie, but accuracy doesn't really stop jerks from being jerks.
> 
> ** another very common phrase that _also _isn't true, but doesn't stop people from using it.



Doctor Who's ratings also rose with Whittaker from a dire low with Capaldi (though I think it wasn't so much him as people tired of Moffat's writing), her premiere was the biggest Doctor premiere of the revival series, and her average viewership is the best of the entire revival series, with only Tennant really challenging her. 

Nearly always, these "we" narratives are full of nonsense. 

It's hardly a surprise that the people who buy into them also don't see the bank scene as depicting racism.


----------



## Sacrosanct

doctorbadwolf said:


> I honestly doubt they'd even get an interview.
> 
> Doctor Who's ratings also rose with Whittaker from a dire low with Capaldi (though I think it wasn't so much him as people tired of Moffat's writing), her premiere was the biggest Doctor premiere of the revival series, and her average viewership is the best of the entire revival series, with only Tennant really challenging her.
> 
> Nearly always, these "we" narratives are full of nonsense.
> 
> It's hardly a surprise that the people who buy into them also don't see the bank scene as depicting racism.



Yes, the ratings dropped very badly with Wittaker.  But if you look at the ratings history, that was hardly assured to be because they cast a woman as the doctor.  Same thing happened with Eccleston and to lesser extent Capaldi.  Since the ratings spiked when Whittaker took over, it's more likely the ratings were due to other issues.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

wicked cool said:


> Like I said if I need to be educated I have world leaders schools and 24/7news
> 
> 
> 
> if these messages were wanted well then ratings would soar
> 
> if everyone wanted cop bashing then oscars ratings should improve



The oscars that were widely accused of racism last year, and which have tried desperately to fix that image via nominations this year but didn't actually address the issue? 

Yeah, definitely lower ratings because of the "cop bashing".


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Sacrosanct said:


> Yes, the ratings dropped very badly with Wittaker.  But if you look at the ratings history, that was hardly assured to be because they cast a woman as the doctor.  Same thing happened with Eccleston and to lesser extent Capaldi.
> 
> View attachment 136133



The ratings only dropped from her premiere. Her average ratings over the season were higher than anyone but (IIRC) Tennant, which was also critically the best set of seasons of the revival show. 

The idea that the show is in trouble because the "went woke" or whatever is just nonsense, the show isn't even in trouble. It's doing what it has always done. The next doctor will do the same.


----------



## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> The oscars that were widely accused of racism last year, and which have tried desperately to fix that image via nominations this year but didn't actually address the issue?



The Oscars have had abysmal ratings for years.  Last year wasn't really much of an anomaly.

When I watch the Oscars, I want to see the best Actor/Actress thank their producer, director, acting coach, dog, cat, armadillo and mother.  I don't want to see them talk about their pet political stance of the year.  That goes for both stances I agree with and stances I disagree with.  Which is why I haven't watched in 20ish years.


----------



## MoonSong

wicked cool said:


> I might be the guy on the banking argument- you do realize if falcon looks like Steve rogers hes still not getting the loan
> he has no assets, no money, probably not great credit (no credit is bad credit) etc.



Granted, even somebody who looks like Steve would be rejected if he had Sam's credit rating. But more often than not, the guy with Sam's credit rating looks like Sam, not like Steve. Even if applied equally, these standards disproportionately disqualify black people. And the real world is worse. Have you heard that with record low interest rates, lots of people want to refinance their mortgages yet black people are either refused in a bigger proportion or only offered worse rates than their current ones?(Source) That there is a list of "Worst banks to borrow from if you are Black/Hispanic"?  (Source)


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> Or people like me who just don't want to see the stuff they deal with on a daily basis being in their entertainment.




If you are watching a show about Captain America's legacy, or about the first female version of The Doctor in its nearly 60-year history... maybe avoiding such topics is not a reasonable expectation.

I'm terribly sorry that the systemic issues in our socity get in the way of sitting back with a beer and enjoying a break from the systemic issues in society.  Maybe the shows aren't the real problem there, though...


----------



## Maxperson

MoonSong said:


> Granted, even somebody who looks like Steve would be rejected if he had Sam's credit rating. But more often than not, the guy with Sam's credit rating looks like Sam, not like Steve. Even if applied equally, these standards disproportionately disqualify black people.



Sure, but that's not at all an issue with the standards.  That's a completely separate issue with why so many black people are poor and have bad credit ratings.  The reasons for the credit ratings being low need to be looked at and addressed, not the completely rational and correct view that people of any race with poor credit ratings are too much of a risk to lend to.


MoonSong said:


> And the real world is worse. Have you heard that with record low interest rates, lots of people want to refinance their mortgages yet black people are either refused in a bigger proportion or only offered worse rates than their current ones?(Source) That there is a list of "Worst banks to borrow from if you are Black/Hispanic"?  (Source)



All other things being equal, if race is the only reason for the disparity, then that's wrong and needs to be addressed.


----------



## MoonSong

Imaculata said:


> In previous episodes, they were more subtle about it. If the viewer was paying attention, the subject matter was pretty clear. Although referring to the main character as uncle Sam was a bit on the nose.



Maybe it was subtle to you, I found the whole series extremely blunt,  blatant and far from subtle. But again, it seems that as a non-American my views and experiences in this subject don't count.


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> If you are watching a show about Captain America's legacy, or about the first female version of The Doctor in its nearly 60-year history... maybe avoiding such topics is not a reasonable expectation.



Captain America was one of my favorite comics when I was younger.  I rarely got this sort of thing in it, despite Cap standing for right and justice.  Same with Superman, who also stood for right and justice.  It happened on occasion, but it wasn't prevalent.


----------



## Umbran

wicked cool said:


> when the ratings go up or down its a "we".




I didn't suggest there wasn't a "we".  I asked you to explicitly state who "we" are.  Who do you claim to speak for?


----------



## hopeless

To be fair both Capaldi and Whittaker was competing against an idiotic agenda that shouldn't have been a thing.
Capaldi still tried his best, but Whittaker didn't even do her research before accepting the role and even then she wasn't helped when the showrunner doubled down on the agenda instead of actually good writing.
A shame really, there's no way Whittaker is as good at acting as Capaldi and it shows.
It appears from what I've read the Marvel shows have the same problem, I hope the Black Widow movie can avoid that pitfall.


----------



## Sacrosanct

Maxperson said:


> Sure, but that's not at all an issue with the standards.  That's a completely separate issue with why so many black people are poor and have bad credit ratings.  The reasons for the credit ratings being low need to be looked at and addressed, not the completely rational and correct view that people of any race with poor credit ratings are too much of a risk to lend to.
> 
> All other things being equal, if race is the only reason for the disparity, then that's wrong and needs to be addressed.



This is fundamentally flawed, because the_ whole point_ is that the credit ratings aren't being applied fairly or equitably.   It is not "rational and correct" to view people as credit ratings only, and those with poor ratings are too much of a risk.

When PoC are being rated worse than white counterparts (for reasons including but not limited to: creating policies that keep PoC in poverty like bus line routes, educational opportunities, job opportunities, DMV locations, etc), then you absolutely can't go by credit ratings alone.  That's the problem.  Do you know how credit ratings are given?  Not being snarky, legit question.  Did you know a large part of your credit score is based on things that have nothing to do with how responsible you are, but for things like where you live?  What kinds of homes you've owned (if any)?  Etc?

"People in poor areas are too much of a risk.  Hey, we just go by credit score, so we can't be racist.  Just so happens we create policies to keep PoC in the poor areas."  

That's literally what I was referring to earlier re: redlining.  Banks didn't target PoC specifically, but everyone with a brain saw what was really going on, and how it was a racist policy.  It's why anti-redlining laws were created in the first place, because saying "We just go by credit score" is just a lame excuse that ignores what's going on.


----------



## wicked cool

Sacrosanct said:


> automatically?  Perhaps not.  But when Jodie Whittaker got the role of the Dr., there was a pretty big backlash among male viewers who were upset.  The same male viewers who filled up the interwebs with joy that the ratings dropped as punishment for hiring a woman in a man's traditional role*.  Celebrating how "we" sent a message to the woke folks that "go woke, go broke".**
> 
> So they aren't really off base all that much, and it's a pretty safe bet, even if there are exceptions.
> 
> 
> *That completely ignored how the rating fell with Peter Capaldi, not Josie, but accuracy doesn't really stop jerks from being jerks.
> 
> ** another very common phrase that _also _isn't true, but doesn't stop people from using it.



The quality of dr who dipped after Matt smith 

FYI the bbc has done this in their history. Colin bakers dr was targeted by bbc management and members of management tried to destroy him
Then the following dr they gave him a horrible budget 

now we have the bbc using reverse racism on the popular show Luther. He’s being targeted by bbc management  for not acting black enough

the flaw in your argument on the general public is ratings are high for shows with heroines/people of all races
The crown
Black panther 
Wonder Woman 1 (2 got poor reviews)
Older star treks such as deep space nine etc

I had no problem with a female dr, don’t care that  Elba was on the list to be the next James Bond or jack harkness flirted with the dr (in fact I was saddened that torchwood got cancelled)
I saw the evidence of certain Star Wars characters in new Star Wars getting limited roles in sequels and their picture shrunk in posters. That was the studio Bowing to a foreign country
Dr who is failing because the storylines have stunk, the supporting cast is awful and you are constantly told if you oppose their viewpoints then your a bad person

Michael Jordan one of the worlds most popular athletes said it best-basically both sides buy his sneakers so why get political 

Real world evidence people are sick of it-California is on the verge of losing a political seat. People are fleeing this state due to cost of living due to politics. Big deal you say-it’s the first time in history this has happened. People are fleeing New York City for similar reasons (the mayor of 


cnn ratings in toilet

when you bash a race, their institutions,  their history ,their religion what do you think will happen. They will turn the channel

back to the falcon-real world let’s say majority of the banks declines are minorities. Are we saying the federal government which audits the banks is complicit. The media is also complicit?


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> The Oscars have had abysmal ratings for years.  Last year wasn't really much of an anomaly.
> 
> When I watch the Oscars, I want to see the best Actor/Actress thank their producer, director, acting coach, dog, cat, armadillo and mother.  I don't want to see them talk about their pet political stance of the year.  That goes for both stances I agree with and stances I disagree with.  Which is why I haven't watched in 20ish years.



I have no patience for this mindset, I'm sorry. You're tired of seeing it on TV, others are tired of living it and being ignored about it. Guess who I have sympathy for, and who I don't. 

Your carefree entertainment time is less important than the voices of the marginalized being heard, and entertainment has _never_ been apolitical, and it never will be.


MoonSong said:


> Granted, even somebody who looks like Steve would be rejected if he had Sam's credit rating.



Sam doesn't have a bad credit rating, though. He just has a 5-year blank that unarguably has nothing to do with his reliability or fiscal viability, _and_ he has government contracts, _and_ his sister is financially stable, _and _the business is an established business and pillar of the community looking for a simple consolidation loan, _and_ it has a proven track record of success with no reason to think that wouldn't be the case again with a working boat and simplified debt structure. 

Steve, in the same situation, would have the benefit of the doubt.


MoonSong said:


> But more often than not, the guy with Sam's credit rating looks like Sam, not like Steve. Even if applied equally, these standards disproportionately disqualify black people. And the real world is worse. Have you heard that with record low interest rates, lots of people want to refinance their mortgages yet black people are either refused in a bigger proportion or only offered worse rates than their current ones?(Source) That there is a list of "Worst banks to borrow from if you are Black/Hispanic"?  (Source)



This is quite right, however. I know Hispanic families that only send the whitest, best at doing a "white voice" member of the family to do business with banks or other potential debt holders. Because when they do otherwise, with the same financial information, they get screwed. And they still get less benefit of the doubt than I get, with less credible financial information, because I have a very anglo name and appearance.


Maxperson said:


> Sure, but that's not at all an issue with the standards.  That's a completely separate issue with why so many black people are poor and have bad credit ratings.  The reasons for the credit ratings being low need to be looked at and addressed, not the completely rational and correct view that people of any race with poor credit ratings are too much of a risk to lend to.
> 
> All other things being equal, if race is the only reason for the disparity, then that's wrong and needs to be addressed.



There is no such thing as all other things being equal. Race is never the only reason for the disparity, when investigated from the outside, because life and people are messy, and these kinds of things are difficult to prove. This sort of demand serves only to keep the status quo in place. 

As for the banking standards, they are part of why credit ratings are low for poor people, AND part of why Indiginous and Black people are disproportionately poor compared to population numbers.


Maxperson said:


> Captain America was one of my favorite comics when I was younger.  I rarely got this sort of thing in it, despite Cap standing for right and justice.  Same with Superman, who also stood for right and justice.  It happened on occasion, but it wasn't prevalent.



Did you never read any of the times Cap stopped being Cap? Because pretty much every one was blatantly political, with only the real world thing being referring to being somewhat obfuscated by a thing veil of being directly about a thing that only exists in comics, like mutant rights or mutant registration, or Cap finding out that the government had done [obvious reference to CIA or US military crimes couched in fantastical circumstances].


----------



## Maxperson

Sacrosanct said:


> This is fundamentally flawed, because the_ whole point_ is that the credit ratings aren't being applied fairly or equitably.   It is not "rational and correct" to view people as credit ratings only, and those with poor ratings are too much of a risk.



Can you show where when a black person misses a car payment it hits him worse than when a white person misses a car payment?  If so, then I will agree that is wrong.


Sacrosanct said:


> When PoC are being rated worse than white counterparts (for reasons including but not limited to: creating policies that keep PoC in poverty like bus line routes, educational opportunities, job opportunities, DMV locations, etc), then you absolutely can't go by credit ratings alone.  That's the problem.  Do you know how credit ratings are given?  Not being snarky, legit question.  Did you know a large part of your credit score is based on things that have nothing to do with how responsible you are, but for things like where you live?  What kinds of homes you've owned (if any)?  Etc?



Yes.  All of those are economic basis for credit score.  Again, though, the issue is with the economics of where black people live(poorer areas), with their incomes, and credit history. Those need to be corrected, because if a black person lived in my neighborhood and had my credit history, and my home history, he would have a very good credit score.  

Then of course we get into the issues that were linked above where people of the same credit score, but different races getting different treatment, which needs to be changed.  But again that's not the same as basing loans on credit ratings.


Sacrosanct said:


> "People in poor areas are too much of a risk.  Hey, we just go by credit score, so we can't be racist.  Just so happens we create policies to keep PoC in the poor areas."



The solution is to help change the poorer areas into areas that aren't so poor.  Not create a system where we can have another financial collapse, because we are giving loans to people who can't pay them back.


----------



## Sacrosanct

wicked cool said:


> Real world evidence people are sick of it-California is on the verge of losing a political seat. People are fleeing this state due to cost of living due to politics. Big deal you say-it’s the first time in history this has happened. People are fleeing New York City for similar reasons (the mayor of
> 
> cnn ratings in toilet
> back to the falcon-real world let’s say majority of the banks declines are minorities. Are we saying the federal government which audits the banks is complicit. The media is also complicit?



None of this is true by the way.  No one is fleeing California and NY due to politics.

Heck, in January 2021, CNN was the #1 cable news network in Total Day, M-Su Prime Time and Dayside in total viewers *and* adults 25-54

Why am I not surprised that someone making the claims you're making is so completely off base with what's really happened?


----------



## Morrus

wicked cool said:


> when the ratings go up or down its a "we". the we is the reason Dr who ratings went into the toilet , its the reason batwoman is in the toilet, star trek not resonating in ratings
> 
> this is both sides fyi-Politicians don't like a certain person on tv the try and threaten the advertisers . advertisers then have to weigh the risks of losing money
> 
> if certain we's don't like you they destroy you on twitter and you basically become a modern day wicth or scarlet letter
> 
> the nba tried this last year and the rating went down. football is trying to grasp it /baseball is avoiding it
> the whole world just watched what happens when you mess with soccer (unrelated but same principle as its a "we" )
> when the Oscars/awards how started politics etc the ratings went down
> 
> back to the real world here- the steve rogers guy goes to the bank to open his autobody shop-no questions asked? im calling BS on this
> 
> first thing -Steve rogers gets a credit check. strike one and maybe the only 1 if its bad. in many situations what happens is people who have good credit and live in areas not as privedleged get taken advantage of by older family members when they are of credit age .Same goes if employment especially if he wants to work in finance. If you cant manager your own money they don't want you managing theirs
> 
> Steve rogers wants to open a handburger stand and wants to buy the stand from the current owner (lets say its tony stark). Tony wants money down and a contract. If Steve goes to the bank he presents tax returns and assets statements. If those are empty hes not getting the loan unless the government backs 1/2 the loan and then its a short term loan which is done through a bank
> 
> If this was a major problem (in the us as I cant speak for overseas) then we would know about it
> 
> Redlining is a crime
> theres thousands of these types of crime-Its fairly easy for these banks to get caught and they would pay huge penalties for doing this. we are no longer living in the wild west
> 
> exact opposite-we in the usa have institutions of higher learning (top ivy league) delibertly limiting a certain race  (because they would most likely be the majority race in these institutions. that's racism!



I find it bewildering that after all these years anybody might thing they could post an anti-inclusive political rant and not get immediately booted into high orbit. I mean, you've been here for 12 years, and you haven't cottoned on yet? And yet here we are. Dn't post in this thread again. 

And also, everybody else, stop talking about politics. Just because one person did doesn't mean the rules suddenly went away. When we say don't talk about politics, we _really mean it_.


----------



## Sacrosanct

_Edit_ deleted as seeing Morrus's comment


----------



## Maxperson

Edit: Posted before I saw the Morrus post.


----------



## Zaukrie

MarkB said:


> Well, Tony's dead, Natasha's dead, Bruce is recovering from having channelled the infinity stones to save half the universe, Thor and Captain Marvel are off-world, Clint is retired again, Wanda's in a log cabin dealing with her own issues, Vision 2.0 also has some issues to work out, T'Challa is presumably sorting out some things in Wakanda.
> 
> I guess Rhodie could've showed up, if anyone gave him a call?



Or any of the other heroes we know are out there....Spider man? Ant man? There are dozens already introduced, let alone adding in more as time goes on......like I said, I get it. It's like the old question of where the other high level NPCs are in a "realistic" fantasy RPG when there are issues. It just struck me for some reason this time.....


----------



## Marc_C

Finished watching it. Predictable. Dramatic tension is very low. I feel like the series should have been 1-2 episodes longer to give more time to flesh out things. Still I give it a 4 on 5. Very watchable.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Politics aside, the imagery of the last couple episodes is astonishingly good. 

From the final shot of ep4, right into the gut-wrenching opening fight of 5, to the much discussed montage (there is no discrepancy, btw. He is obviously throwing the shield much harder and intentionally challenging himself with harder catches), our first sight of the new suit (we shouted delighted obscenities), the shot where Sam brings Karli down to the ambulance, Isaiah watching Sam's speech (seriously some folks don't get that that scene is also for the folks that Sam is speaking for, not just the people he is speaking to?), the scene where Sam deflects a helicopter, and some I'm forgetting, the show did an excellent job of telling the story with moments and visuals, as much as with plot and dialogue. 

Bucky helping with the boat, and flirting with Sarah, was also a delight, and the tough love talk with Sam and Bucky was great. 

Overall, the show stuck to it's guns, and actually finally dealt with some of the issues the MCU has tended to ignore. 

I don't have any trust or regard for monopolized corporate media from one of the worst corporate actors in American business and politics, but this show impressed me. I hope everyone involved in it is giving all the opportunities going forward, to continue to make great content like this. 

My wife, who is much less forgiving than I am, was disappointed that Walker survived the show, and barring that wasn't even thrown in prison. I mean...it's accurate to real life, but I also felt that he faced much too little consequence for causing the situation to escalate, murdering a man, and causing the failure of the mission and the death of his friend.


----------



## Dire Bare

MarkB said:


> Well, Tony's dead, Natasha's dead, Bruce is recovering from having channelled the infinity stones to save half the universe, Thor and Captain Marvel are off-world, Clint is retired again, Wanda's in a log cabin dealing with her own issues, Vision 2.0 also has some issues to work out, T'Challa is presumably sorting out some things in Wakanda.
> 
> I guess Rhodie could've showed up, if anyone gave him a call?



Good points all, but even if all the Avengers were alive and waiting by the phone . . . .

This is a common trope in superhero literature, why doesn't the Flash just call Superman when things get tough? Or just group-text the Justice League?

The simple answer is, this story is about the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It isn't about the Avengers. Rhoadey made a cameo in episode one to help ground the series in the larger narrative, but this isn't "The Falcon, the Winter Soldier, and Warmachine".

If your ability to suspend disbelief ends when Sam and Bucky don't call in whatever remaining Avengers to save the day . . . . perhaps superhero shows are not the genre for you.


----------



## Sacrosanct

Dire Bare said:


> Good points all, but even if all the Avengers were alive and waiting by the phone . . . .
> 
> This is a common trope in superhero literature, why doesn't the Flash just call Superman when things get tough? Or just group-text the Justice League?
> 
> The simple answer is, this story is about the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It isn't about the Avengers. Rhoadey made a cameo in episode one to help ground the series in the larger narrative, but this isn't "The Falcon, the Winter Soldier, and Warmachine".
> 
> If your ability to suspend disbelief ends when Sam and Bucky don't call in whatever remaining Avengers to save the day . . . . perhaps superhero shows are not the genre for you.



Yep.  I remember watching The Winter Soldier and thinking, "This whole movie could be resolved if Cap just called Tony Stark" lol.


----------



## Zaukrie

Dire Bare said:


> Good points all, but even if all the Avengers were alive and waiting by the phone . . . .
> 
> This is a common trope in superhero literature, why doesn't the Flash just call Superman when things get tough? Or just group-text the Justice League?
> 
> The simple answer is, this story is about the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It isn't about the Avengers. Rhoadey made a cameo in episode one to help ground the series in the larger narrative, but this isn't "The Falcon, the Winter Soldier, and Warmachine".
> 
> If your ability to suspend disbelief ends when Sam and Bucky don't call in whatever remaining Avengers to save the day . . . . perhaps superhero shows are not the genre for you.



That's 100% NOT what I said....why does the internet have to be EXTREME? I said I noticed it, not like I normally do.....But sure, let's not have nuance in our discussions. I LITERALLY acknowledged that it was irrational of me to expect that in a super hero show, right in the post.


----------



## Maxperson

Zaukrie said:


> That's 100% NOT what I said....why does the internet have to be EXTREME? I said I noticed it, not like I normally do.....But sure, let's not have nuance in our discussions. I LITERALLY acknowledged that it was irrational of me to expect that in a super hero show, right in the post.



Er, he was responding to @MarkB .


----------



## Zaukrie

Maxperson said:


> Er, he was responding to @MarkB .



Who was responding to my post.....about how I noticed it for some reason.


----------



## Maxperson

Zaukrie said:


> Who was responding to my post.....about how I noticed it for some reason.



Fair enough.  I didn't notice that. 

Ever since I was young I noticed it in comic books and shows, but chalked it down to the same reasons @Dire Bare gave.  It's about them and not the other heroes.


----------



## billd91

Zaukrie said:


> Or any of the other heroes we know are out there....Spider man? Ant man? There are dozens already introduced, let alone adding in more as time goes on......like I said, I get it. It's like the old question of where the other high level NPCs are in a "realistic" fantasy RPG when there are issues. It just struck me for some reason this time.....



It's not like they're all on a party phone line waiting for anyone to get a call. Sam responded to the situation because he had an inkling of what was going on having been involved. Spider-Man's got his own issues - maybe Sam called and got shunted to voicemail. Ant-Man is across the country in San Francisco, probably tackling other issues with the Wasp.


----------



## Zaukrie

billd91 said:


> It's not like they're all on a party phone line waiting for anyone to get a call. Sam responded to the situation because he had an inkling of what was going on having been involved. Spider-Man's got his own issues - maybe Sam called and got shunted to voicemail. Ant-Man is across the country in San Francisco, probably tackling other issues with the Wasp.



Like I said....I get it....I just noticed it for some reason.....nothing more or less than that.


----------



## Maxperson

billd91 said:


> It's not like they're all on a party phone line waiting for anyone to get a call. Sam responded to the situation because he had an inkling of what was going on having been involved. Spider-Man's got his own issues - maybe Sam called and got shunted to voicemail. Ant-Man is across the country in San Francisco, probably tackling other issues with the Wasp.



That only holds so much water and then spills.  There are a TON of heroes to contact and they can't all be busy at once in every situation where a weaker hero is on the scene and could use help.  Best in my opinion to just chalk it up to the story being about the hero in question, suspend some disbelief, and move on.


----------



## Imaculata

Maxperson said:


> This.  I keep myself informed, but I go to my entertainment to get away from real world issues(assuming I'm not picking a documentary or something to see an issue).  I stopped watching the Oscars when every other speech was about a pet political view. I stopped watching football games in which saw players kneel.  If they make a Captain America with Sam I will stop watching it if it's as political as this one.  There are many avenues to get the word out and in my entertainment is not one that I will accept.




I'm of a different mindset. I love it when a show like this one dares to tackle current day issues. But I favor subtext over text. I like my social commentary not too heavy handed.

I agree though that the end justifies the means, but... it does make for a bit of a disappointing bookend to the show.

For example, I really liked the previous episode where Sam and Bucky fix the boat. To the casual viewer this scene was just about fixing a boat. But to those paying attention, it was really about fixing America. The scene made it clear that it was not something Sam could do by himself, but it's a start. 

Not everyone will have understood the subtext. To some it may go way over the head, while to others it is pretty blatant. But that makes it subtle in my book. It found a good middle ground where I think most viewers will get it.

And it was so much better than Sam giving a lengthy lecture, like he did in the final episode. I appreciate the show for tackling these topical issues, but I wish they had stayed the course for the final episode.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Dire Bare said:


> Good points all, but even if all the Avengers were alive and waiting by the phone . . . .



Well, and the thing is, they wouldn't be waiting by the phone. I think the MCU has shown fairly well that they're all doing things off camera/between films.


Sacrosanct said:


> Yep.  I remember watching The Winter Soldier and thinking, "This whole movie could be resolved if Cap just called Tony Stark" lol.



That one was especially glaring, because it felt like a setup for an Avengers movie, ya know? And you wouldn't even need Stark to have real screen time, 5 minutes where he does some hacking or aerial shots in the showdown with HydraShield drones fighting Stark bots, whatever. I pull that sort of thing off all the time in my Eberron game where I've got several competent NPCs that I don't want to track in most fights.


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> Or any of the other heroes we know are out there....Spider man? Ant man?




WandaVision happens some weeks after people reappear in The Blip.  Falcon and Winter Soldier happens six months after people return.  Spider-Man: Far From Home happens, iirc, 8 months after people return. 

So, Peter Parker is in school, trying to get his life in order, and not in a position to go jet-setting around the world hunting terrorists.  He would have been incredibly useful in the end fight in New York, I admit - he would probably have made mincemeat out of the super-soldiers (_thwip, thwip_ all wrapped up by yoru friendly neighborhood Spider-Man!), but... Sam and Bucky are not going to call a kid in on these things.  Scott Lang is usually on the West Coast, nowhere near most of the action, and possibly engaged in Quantumania for all we know.



Zaukrie said:


> There are dozens already introduced, let alone adding in more as time goes on......like I said, I get it. It's like the old question of where the other high level NPCs are in a "realistic" fantasy RPG when there are issues. It just struck me for some reason this time.....




The answer is typically, "dealing with their own crap".  It isnt' like the rest of the world stands still while Sam and Bucky are doing their thing.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Imaculata said:


> I like my social commentary not too heavy handed.



So, what I mean when I say that it isn't heavy handed, is that Sam doesn't say anything that millions of people wouldn't say if they got a chance (and had time to prepare a speech beforehand, but I refuse to only sometimes hold a show to realistic dialogue standards. I don't need to hear Sam fumble words and say um a lot) to speak directly to the powerful in a situation where they pretty much _have _to listen, and are more likely to hear and listen to what is said than if they were comfortable in their seats of power. 

The superhero stuff is the only unrealistic part of that scene.


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> Like I said....I get it....I just noticed it for some reason.....nothing more or less than that.



It just seemed like an especially odd thing to notice at this particular point in the timeline, when we know that a lot of the other heroes are either out of commission or dealing with other things of their own. Any other time I'd be right there with you, but in this particular case there's plenty of reason for other people to be unavailable.


----------



## Zaukrie

MarkB said:


> It just seemed like an especially odd thing to notice at this particular point in the timeline, when we know that a lot of the other heroes are either out of commission or dealing with other things of their own. Any other time I'd be right there with you, but in this particular case there's plenty of reason for other people to be unavailable.



The number of responses to this one tiny part of my post outnumbers the responses to almost everything I post here about my products and videos. Clearly I need to change something on one set of posts or another


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> It just seemed like an especially odd thing to notice at this particular point in the timeline, when we know that a lot of the other heroes are either out of commission or dealing with other things of their own. Any other time I'd be right there with you, but in this particular case there's plenty of reason for other people to be unavailable.




It is also called not stealing the thunder from the characters the show/movie is about. The people who complain about someone like Elminster always showing up to save the day are probably the same ones who want Iron Man or Superman to show up and save the day.  lol

Plus, at least in live-action stuff, there is a real world reason all the other heroes don't just show up all over the place: the money the actors would have to be paid for those appearances.


----------



## Morrus

Zaukrie said:


> The number of responses to this one tiny part of my post outnumbers the responses to almost everything I post here about my products and videos. Clearly I need to change something on one set of posts or another



Yeah. Welcome to my life.


----------



## Stalker0

Dire Bare said:


> Good points all, but even if all the Avengers were alive and waiting by the phone . . . .
> 
> This is a common trope in superhero literature, why doesn't the Flash just call Superman when things get tough? Or just group-text the Justice League?
> 
> The simple answer is, this story is about the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It isn't about the Avengers. Rhoadey made a cameo in episode one to help ground the series in the larger narrative, but this isn't "The Falcon, the Winter Soldier, and Warmachine".
> 
> If your ability to suspend disbelief ends when Sam and Bucky don't call in whatever remaining Avengers to save the day . . . . perhaps superhero shows are not the genre for you.



Yep, this is probably one of the number one assumptions you have to make to keep yourself sane while watching these shows and movies. You just have to assume there is always some good reason that the other superheroes don't come to join in.....because if this was "realistic", of course all of the superheroes would join in on these global level threats, it would be silly that they wouldn't.

So everytime the question in your head whispers "but why isn't XYZ not here", you just have to answer "because of ABC reason that's not spoken on camera". Its the requirement of disbelief to enjoy the genre.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> You just have to assume there is always some good reason that the other superheroes don't come to join in.....because if this was "realistic", of course all of the superheroes would join in on these global level threats, it would be silly that they wouldn't.




The Flag Smashers were not a "global level threat" in the way Ultron or Thanos were.  The Flag Smashers might have had heavy political implications/repercussions, but the number of people they directly threatened was measured in handfulls, not globes.


----------



## Older Beholder

I thought the speech Sam gives at the end (for the most part) was as much for Isaiah Bradley's benefit as anyone else.


----------



## Campbell

I'd say the Avengers are pretty much in disarray during this time period.

Iron Man is dead.
Black Panther is dead.
Warmachine has whatever mess to deal with he's going to handle in Armor Wars.
The Scarlet Witch has gone off the reservation.
Spiderman's secret identity has been revealed to the world.
Thor is in space with the Guardians of the Galaxy.

I expect we'll find that Carol Danvers and Monica Rambeau are going to have their own issues to deal with.

Doctor Strange should have probably made an appearance in WandaVision, but there's a lot happening concurrently in the MCU right now.


----------



## Imaculata

Campbell said:


> Iron Man is dead.
> Black Panther is dead.




When did Black Panther die? I know the actor died, but afaik he was brought back after the blip.


----------



## Dire Bare

Zaukrie said:


> That's 100% NOT what I said....why does the internet have to be EXTREME? I said I noticed it, not like I normally do.....But sure, let's not have nuance in our discussions. I LITERALLY acknowledged that it was irrational of me to expect that in a super hero show, right in the post.



Oh relax. When someone quotes you, it doesn't mean they disagree with you. I was (attempting) to build on what you posted. We are in agreement. If I was unclear, well, sorry I guess.

_EDIT: I was (attempting) to build on what @MarkB posted, not @Zaukrie, I myself missed a link in the chain here. But still . . . relax. It's a conversation, not a debate. We can disagree a lot, or a little, we can build on what others post, we can riff and the conversation can drift . . . or we can misunderstand each other. Chill dude._



Maxperson said:


> Er, he was responding to @MarkB .


----------



## Imaculata

MoonSong said:


> Maybe it was subtle to you, I found the whole series extremely blunt,  blatant and far from subtle. But again, it seems that as a non-American my views and experiences in this subject don't count.




I call it subtle, because up to the last episode, the show had stuck to subtext rather than text. To me the message was pretty clear, but my friend didn't realize what the boat scene was about until I pointed it out to her. Then she pointed out that the kids kept referring to Sam as Uncle Sam, and now I felt dumb for not picking up on THAT.

But I like this way of presenting a message about current social issues. Just as long as they don't have a character turn to the camera and give a lecture. I feel a show is more powerful when it makes you think about its message, rather than telling you what its message is.


----------



## Imaculata

Marc_C said:


> Finished watching it. Predictable. Dramatic tension is very low. I feel like the series should have been 1-2 episodes longer to give more time to flesh out things. Still I give it a 4 on 5. Very watchable.




I have to agree. There weren't really many shocking moments and twists. And it felt like the Power Broker was severely under used. 1 or 2 extra episodes could have given her more screentime, and integrated her into the plot better. I would also have loved to see more conflict with US Agent and our heroes. 

I didn't hate the show, but in retrospect it was a bit underwhelming. It didn't have the quality of writing that Wanda Vision had.


----------



## Campbell

Imaculata said:


> When did Black Panther die? I know the actor died, but afaik he was brought back after the blip.



My bad on that one.


----------



## Imaculata

Sacrosanct said:


> Yes, the ratings dropped very badly with Wittaker.  But if you look at the ratings history, that was hardly assured to be because they cast a woman as the doctor.  Same thing happened with Eccleston and to lesser extent Capaldi.  Since the ratings spiked when Whittaker took over, it's more likely the ratings were due to other issues.




So, I don't watch Dr Who. It is not my thing. But I have watched the first two seasons of new Who. I thought Eccleston was alright. He made the role his own, and I feel his portrayal may be a bit underrated. He added a delightful upbeat attitude to the character. Tennant was superior though in my view. I can see why New Who fans adore his portrayal so much.

Of the other doctors I have only seen a little, so my opinion of them is based purely on the brief glimpses I had of them in the role.

Smith was alright, but overshadowed by his predecessor. Capaldi was kind of a wet blanket. With Whittaker I felt like she didn't understand the role at all. What little I've seen of her, I didn't enjoy. When people say that she didn't prepare for the role, I can see what they mean. The writing didn't help either, with dialogue pointing out her gender, as if a shape shifting eternal being would really care what body it is in.

Of course whenever you introduce an actress in a traditional male role, the worst of the internet immediately regurgitates their bile that they reserve for any gender swap. And thus honest criticism is drowned out by the vile misogynist mass. And that's a shame, because there are plenty of people who just hate her portrayal of the character, not her gender.

It reminds me of the previous Ghostbusters reboot. The loudest vilest voices of the internet were so vocal about the gender of the new lady Ghostbusters, that it became a defense for what was arguably just a terrible terrible reboot.

I like having ladies in my media. I want female Ghostbusters, a lady Dr Who, a female jedi and Mighty Thor. Provided that they do a good job in the role.


----------



## Stalker0

Imaculata said:


> It reminds me of the previous Ghostbusters reboot. The loudest vilest voices of the internet were so vocal about the gender of the new lady Ghostbusters, that it became a defense for what was arguably just a terrible terrible reboot.



hehe, yep true gender equality will come when we simply allow women to make movies just as bad as the guys


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> The Flag Smashers were not a "global level threat" in the way Ultron or Thanos were.  The Flag Smashers might have had heavy political implications/repercussions, but the number of people they directly threatened was measured in handfulls, not globes.



Fair enough, but my point stands that the issue of "why isn't person X helping out here" is prevalent throughout the MCU (and the Arrow verse as well). The best answer is the headcannon of "there is always a reason, it just wasn't covered on camera". Trying to justify it on screen every single time it happens is just an exercise in futility at this point.


----------



## Older Beholder

In other Marvel related news, they can now add ‘Academy award winning director’ to the Eternals posters when the movie comes out.


----------



## Blue

Campbell said:


> I'd say the Avengers are pretty much in disarray during this time period.
> 
> Iron Man is dead.
> Black Panther is dead.
> Warmachine has whatever mess to deal with he's going to handle in Armor Wars.
> The Scarlet Witch has gone off the reservation.
> Spiderman's secret identity has been revealed to the world.
> Thor is in space with the Guardians of the Galaxy.
> 
> I expect we'll find that Carol Danvers and Monica Rambeau are going to have their own issues to deal with.
> 
> Doctor Strange should have probably made an appearance in WandaVision, but there's a lot happening concurrently in the MCU right now.



As mentioned by other, Black Panther isn't dead.  But also Spider-man: Far from Home happens in the future compared to this, so his life is not yet in disarray.


----------



## MarkB

Blue said:


> As mentioned by other, Black Panther isn't dead.  But also Spider-man: Far from Home happens in the future compared to this, so his life is not yet in disarray.



Well, not hugely in disarray. At this point, he and his fellow Blipped pupils are probably still trying to sort through which classes they should be in.


----------



## Janx

MarkB said:


> Well, not hugely in disarray. At this point, he and his fellow Blipped pupils are probably still trying to sort through which classes they should be in.



there should be a hat for that.


----------



## Umbran

Campbell said:


> Black Panther is dead.
> Spiderman's secret identity has been revealed to the world.




So, Chadwick Boseman is dead.  However, Black Panther, in the fiction, is not (yet).  He's a head of state, and cannot be expected to come running when a couple of Americans are up against a political issue.

In terms of the timeline, Spider-Man's identity gets revealed _after_ the events of FatWS.


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> So, Chadwick Boseman is dead.  However, Black Panther, in the fiction, is not (yet).  He's a head of state, and cannot be expected to come running when a couple of Americans are up against a political issue.
> 
> In terms of the timeline, Spider-Man's identity gets revealed _after_ the events of FatWS.



besides that, literally, the Dora showed up to help. Kind of.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> besides that, literally, the Dora showed up to help. Kind of.




I gotta say, that whole bit was the best example of people who disagree about something managing to compromise.

And watching Bucky and Sam stand back while Walker gets his butt handed to him was priceless.


----------



## MoonSong

Imaculata said:


> So, I don't watch Dr Who. It is not my thing. But I have watched the first two seasons of new Who. I thought Eccleston was alright. He made the role his own, and I feel his portrayal may be a bit underrated. He added a delightful upbeat attitude to the character. Tennant was superior though in my view. I can see why New Who fans adore his portrayal so much.



On Doctor Who, I don't have steady access to the property, -I stopped in the middle of Tennant- so I basically have no dog in that fight. I've wanted to see a female Doctor for a long time, but again, I'm not engaged enough to the property to give further comment. I'm not informed enough.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> Yep, this is probably one of the number one assumptions you have to make to keep yourself sane while watching these shows and movies. You just have to assume there is always some good reason that the other superheroes don't come to join in.....because if this was "realistic", of course all of the superheroes would join in on these global level threats, it would be silly that they wouldn't.



Actually, I think this is completely wrong. The world is a big place, there are multiple crises happening all the time. It would be silly if all the superpowered individuals _did_ turn up to every crisis. Even when the superhero has instantaneous travel and communication, that just means they are covering a larger area, and thus have more crises to field. That goes double for galactic heroes like Captain Marvel. The FBI/Scotland Yard do not handle every crime. And then there are jurisdictional issues. Local law enforcement get upset when the FBI take over. And even more upset when Jessica Fletcher takes over. Jessica Fletcher being a prime example of the ridiculousness of a character who manages to be at the location of pretty much every murder in the USA.


----------



## Morrus

I kinda feel like while Sam’s journey to becoming Cap was interesting, the entire show could not exist without Marvel continuity being affected one but. At the end of Endgame Steve gives Sam the shield. At the beginning of the next Cap movie he’ll start as Captain America. He’s in the same position at the end of this series as he was at the end of Endgame.

I get why — they can’t have you needing to see the TV shows to make sense of the movies, so the events of the show can’t really affect the movie timeline. But it leaves me feel a little unsatisfied.

Still, I enjoyed the show. Very much looking forward to Loki!


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> At the end of Endgame Steve gives Sam the shield. At the beginning of the next Cap movie he’ll start as Captain America. He’s in the same position at the end of this series as he was at the end of Endgame.




He is _physically_ in the same position.  Psychologically?  Not at all.  In terms of public acceptance of him in the role?  Not at all.

I believe a major point of the show in fact is, "Having the shield and punching does not make you Captain America."


----------



## MoonSong

Imaculata said:


> I call it subtle, because up to the last episode, the show had stuck to subtext rather than text. To me the message was pretty clear, but my friend didn't realize what the boat scene was about until I pointed it out to her. Then she pointed out that the kids kept referring to Sam as Uncle Sam, and now I felt dumb for not picking up on THAT.
> 
> But I like this way of presenting a message about current social issues. Just as long as they don't have a character turn to the camera and give a lecture. I feel a show is more powerful when it makes you think about its message, rather than telling you what its message is.



I actually find the discourse necessary. Sam had to find a way to strong arm the powers that be into accepting him being Captain America. What better than having him give a patriotic yet radical discourse on National TV?


----------



## billd91

Morrus said:


> I kinda feel like while Sam’s journey to becoming Cap was interesting, the entire show could not exist without Marvel continuity being affected one but. At the end of Endgame Steve gives Sam the shield. At the beginning of the next Cap movie he’ll start as Captain America. He’s in the same position at the end of this series as he was at the end of Endgame.
> 
> I get why — they can’t have you needing to see the TV shows to make sense of the movies, so the events of the show can’t really affect the movie timeline. But it leaves me feel a little unsatisfied.



It's going to be hard to imagine WandaVision *not* affecting the movie timeline. So I don't think the separation of the Disney+ shows is as strict as Agents of Shield and other Marvel shows on other networks has been.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

ModestModernist said:


> I thought the speech Sam gives at the end (for the most part) was as much for Isaiah Bradley's benefit as anyone else.



Yes, absolutely.


----------



## Morrus

billd91 said:


> It's going to be hard to imagine WandaVision *not* affecting the movie timeline. So I don't think the separation of the Disney+ shows is as strict as Agents of Shield and other Marvel shows on other networks has been.



If they re-introduce the new Vision into the movies, yeah, that will need some kind of in-movie explanation as to why he's not dead. Otherwise Wanda's status hasn't particularly changed I don't think.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Morrus said:


> If they re-introduce the new Vision into the movies, yeah, that will need some kind of in-movie explanation as to why he's not dead. Otherwise Wanda's status hasn't particularly changed I don't think.



Twins.


----------



## Janx

MoonSong said:


> I actually find the discourse necessary. Sam had to find a way to strong arm the powers that be into accepting him being Captain America. What better than having him give a patriotic yet radical discourse on National TV?



Besides that, I want to hear what Sam has to say.

Somebody upthread was griping about not wanting to be preached to.

You know what? I came to hear the sermon, so let the Brother speak.

Amen.


----------



## Campbell

I never really got the sense that the audience was supposed to take Steve Rogers' moral preening (who I love by the way) at face value. I don't think Sam is expected to be the voice of truth either.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> You know what? I came to hear the sermon, so let the Brother speak.
> 
> Amen.




Yeah.  You know, there is something to be said for a hero just putting out there the thing that is right.  I liked it here.  I liked it with Rogers laying out, "Every time someone tries to win a war before it starts, innocent people die.  Every.  Time."  I like "With great Power comes great responsibility."  All of those...

Superheroes are, among other things, modern mythology.  Making statements like that is part of the point.


----------



## Umbran

Campbell said:


> I never really got the sense that the audience was supposed to take Steve Rogers' moral preening (who I love by the way) at face value. I don't think Sam is expected to be the voice of truth either.




What do you mean by "truth"?  It is entirely possible for Sam (and Steve, before him) to not have the facts straight at any given moment.  They aren't infallible.

However, part of Captain America is.... about doing the Right Thing.  On any real moral question, you can depend on Cap to be on the right side of the issue, insofar as that is possible.  This, more than anything else, is why folks felt the Hydra-Cap from the comics to be a violation of ethos.


----------



## Campbell

Umbran said:


> What do you mean by "truth"?  It is entirely possible for Sam (and Steve, before him) to not have the facts straight at any given moment.  They aren't infallible.
> 
> However, part of Captain America is.... about doing the Right Thing.  On any real moral question, you can depend on Cap to be on the right side of the issue, insofar as that is possible.  This, more than anything else, is why folks felt the Hydra-Cap from the comics to be a violation of ethos.




They do what they think is right, but I never assumed the audience was supposed to take that as an endorsement of their views. I mean a significant part of Steve Rogers' character is that he is relentlessly stubborn to a fault.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Campbell said:


> They do what they think is right, but I never assumed the audience was supposed to take that as an endorsement of their views. I mean a significant part of Steve Rogers' character is that he is relentlessly stubborn to a fault.



Is it? Pretty sure he has changed his mind about stuff plenty in the comics, when someone shows him a compelling enough argument that he is wrong.


----------



## Umbran

Campbell said:


> They do what they think is right, but I never assumed the audience was supposed to take that as an endorsement of their views.




To quote Tom Lehrer, _"It takes a certain amount of courage to get up in a coffee house or college auditorium and come out in favor of the things everyone else in the audience is against... like peace, and justice, and brotherhood, and so on..."_

It would not be inaccurate to say that Captain America was created by a couple of Jews for purposes of punching Nazis in the face.  I don't think he is at risk of taking moral stances the company would be embarrassed by.  



Campbell said:


> I mean a significant part of Steve Rogers' character is that he is relentlessly stubborn to a fault.




In the MCU, the one time that leads him into moral or ethical trouble, he stops before he does something he'll regret.  And that moment is used as a mirror for Walker, who doesn't stop at the equivalent moment.


----------



## Blue

Janx said:


> besides that, literally, the Dora showed up to help. Kind of.


----------



## Janx

Blue said:


> View attachment 136176



that cracks me up.  We need one for "Finding Zemo"


----------



## Blue

Janx said:


> that cracks me up.  We need one for "Finding Zemo"



I can just picture pointing at the sea behind them excitedly.  "He's on the Raft!  The Raft!"

Though really, the part that gets me is the Winter Soldier arm on Boots.


----------



## Janx

Blue said:


> I can just picture pointing at the sea behind them excitedly.  "He's on the Raft!  The Raft!"
> 
> Though really, the part that gets me is the Winter Soldier arm on Boots.



maybe add some bubble behind her in the water...  keep it subtle


----------



## Stalker0

Paul Farquhar said:


> Actually, I think this is completely wrong. The world is a big place, there are multiple crises happening all the time. It would be silly if all the superpowered individuals _did_ turn up to every crisis. Even when the superhero has instantaneous travel and communication, that just means they are covering a larger area, and thus have more crises to field. That goes double for galactic heroes like Captain Marvel. The FBI/Scotland Yard do not handle every crime. And then there are jurisdictional issues. Local law enforcement get upset when the FBI take over. And even more upset when Jessica Fletcher takes over. Jessica Fletcher being a prime example of the ridiculousness of a character who manages to be at the location of pretty much every murder in the USA.



It’s not about showing up to everything, but certain high profile cases make the list...aka the stuff exciting enough to generate movies and tv shows.

like with Wanda vision, no one is going to call Dr Strange when an entire town is being rewritten by magic powers? At face value the answer seems to be no.

in my head cannon, someone tried and couldn’t get a ahold of him for whatever reason. And done, we move on.

I just assume this happens in every big league issue off camera


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> It’s not about showing up to everything, but certain high profile cases make the list...aka the stuff exciting enough to generate movies and tv shows.



That only applies to world shattering scenarios, and neither TV show featured anything even close to that. And even in world-shattering scenarios, many heroes, such as Bucky, can only travel at the speed of bus. So the chances are by the time they arrive it will all be over.


Stalker0 said:


> like with Wanda vision, no one is going to call Dr Strange when an entire town is being rewritten by magic powers? At face value the answer seems to be no.



No one actually has Doctor Strange's number. But there would be no need, as he has the means to detect and monitor situations like WandaVision remotely, and intervene if the world is threatened. Which it wasn't. Doctor Strange's brief is explicitly _to protect the world from magic threats_. If the world isn't threatened, it's not his job. If the threat is non-magical, it's not his job. His medical training makes him skilled in triage. Often the correct medical decision is to not intervene.


----------



## hopeless

I still think Wandavision's story might have been improved if Agnes was actually working on behalf of Dr Strange's organisation and no one thought anything was wrong until she failed to contact them with an update so one of them went down there only to discover she had been rewritten into her undercover role by Wanda.
That could still be the case if revealed in the movie, but most responses to this believe she's a witch not a sorceror ignoring the fact Dr Strange's group are supposed to be keeping tabs on magical threats and Wanda having a breakdown is a threat!
Just because she'a a witch doesn't mean she isn't affiliated to a part of Dr Strange's organisation they quite probably have their own bureaucracy and red tape to match their real world counterparts!


----------



## Dire Bare

Stalker0 said:


> It’s not about showing up to everything, but certain high profile cases make the list...aka the stuff exciting enough to generate movies and tv shows.
> 
> like with Wanda vision, no one is going to call Dr Strange when an entire town is being rewritten by magic powers? At face value the answer seems to be no.
> 
> in my head cannon, someone tried and couldn’t get a ahold of him for whatever reason. And done, we move on.
> 
> I just assume this happens in every big league issue off camera



Who's going to call Dr. Strange? It's not like he puts out a shingle, "Sorcerer Supreme, Call for Supernatural Emergencies".

The Avengers proper are a government-linked organization . . . but many of our other heroes aren't connected like that.


----------



## Blue

Stalker0 said:


> like with Wanda vision, no one is going to call Dr Strange when an entire town is being rewritten by magic powers? At face value the answer seems to be no.
> 
> in my head cannon, someone tried and couldn’t get a ahold of him for whatever reason. And done, we move on.



What I understand was that he was informed but late, and was supposed to get there right after it ended.  There was supposed to be a end-credits seen with him, but Benedict was stuck in New Zealand due to travel restrictions.


----------



## Blue

Dire Bare said:


> Who's going to call Dr. Strange? It's not like he puts out a shingle, "Sorcerer Supreme, Call for Supernatural Emergencies".



It's much more convenient when they are in the phone book.


----------



## Dire Bare

Blue said:


> It's much more convenient when they are in the phone book.View attachment 136224



Having Harry show up in Westview would have been EPIC!


----------



## hopeless

I'm probably in the minority here, but who would you cast as Harry Dresden?
I would have liked the one from the tv series despite some people not liking that.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> like with Wanda vision, no one is going to call Dr Strange when an entire town is being rewritten by magic powers? At face value the answer seems to be no.




So, who was going to tell him?  SWORD?  With that idiot at the lead?  No.
Monica Rambeau or Agent Woo?  They don't know Strange.  
Beyond that, nobody knew it was happening.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> So, who was going to tell him?  SWORD?  With that idiot at the lead?  No.
> Monica Rambeau or Agent Woo?  They don't know Strange.
> Beyond that, nobody knew it was happening.



I would argue the head of Sword at least for most of the show is not stupid, he's just evil. He's much less of an imbecile than Monica is, who:

Who faced with some mystery field surrounding a disappeared town that has clearly mind whammied local police, decides the best idea is to the touch it....then try to move through it, instead of calling for backup.
Is on record saying that Wanda's manipulation was "agonizing torture" but still defends Wanda to the rest of the organization....based on some....gut feeling?
Finds out that she went through a reality changing barrier, then gets a note from the medic that her "medical signs aren't even showing up"....and just decides to blow it off instead of taking it for the grievously serious news that it should be. Actually that should have been illegal, Monica should have been medically detained at that point...but I digress.
Then goes through the same barrier....again! Its only by the power of plot she got super powers and not extreme cancer that killed her in a few days.
In contrast, the head of Sword is on point for most of it. He sees Wanda for exactly what she is....an enemy of extraordinary power who has taken an entire town hostage, and when confronted, shows no remorse and no desire to stop her actions. He uses that drone to take the one shot he's got to take out the terrorist (which Wanda absolutely is at that point)....sure it doesn't work, but against Wanda I mean what would? Sure the guy had an evil agenda, and turned into a mustache twirling villain by the end (which was so stupid....sigh), but honestly for a lot of the show he was right.


Back to contacting the Avengers, Agent Woo knows Ant-man, Darcy knows Dr Selwick that have worked with Avengers and likely have some kind of contact number for at least a few of them. Falcon and War Machine are well known military assets that would definitely have ways to get in touch with them. Or Pepper Potts, surely she has some Avenger contacts in that massive rolodex of hers, and again a federal agency would absolutely have means of getting in contact with her.

So would it require some telephone games sure....and you put one of your hardworking federal agents on that while people continue the investigation....but that absolutely happens.....because when you are dealing with freakin reality changing magic....yes you are going to try and find any expert on the planet....or heck beyond the planet....you can.

But....again in my headcannon, I assume they do just that. There is a poor federal agent in their camp who makes dozens and dozens of calls trying to get a hold of an avenger....and for XYZ reason they just can't....and so the plot moves on.


----------



## Blue

Dire Bare said:


> Having Harry show up in Westview would have been EPIC!



That would have been a lot of fun.  While the White Counciol has a rather intractible view on mind control, Harry tempers his views with a good deal more compassion.  And it's fun watching him try to deal with the moral quandary - always good parts of the books.  I would give even odds that it ended up - after some pyrotechnics - with a discussion much like the Visions that ended with Wanda voluntarily in Demonreach.

Okay, I think I've gone over my quota of off-topic, so to bring it back to original sub-topic.  When Walker was announced as the new Captain America, which of the established 6-months-post-Blip heroes/characters should have shown up or at least called to congratulate/check out/condemn the new Cap?  Because that was likely a worldwide news event.


----------



## Dire Bare

hopeless said:


> I'm probably in the minority here, but who would you cast as Harry Dresden?
> I would have liked the one from the tv series despite some people not liking that.



I really liked Paul Blackthorne in the role. But then again, I've loved him in everything I've seen him do!


----------



## Blue

Stalker0 said:


> In contrast, the head of Sword is on point for most of it. He sees Wanda for exactly what she is....an enemy of extraordinary power who has taken an entire town hostage, and when confronted, shows no remorse and no desire to stop her actions. He uses that drone to take the one shot he's got to take out the terrorist (which Wanda absolutely is at that point)....sure it doesn't work, but against Wanda I mean what would? Sure the guy had an evil agenda, and turned into a mustache twirling villain by the end (which was so stupid....sigh), but honestly for a lot of the show he was right.



He turned into a mustache-twirling villain before the start of the show when he intentionally antagonized a powerful sorceress* who just returned from the Blip and is in triple grief - killing her beloved, watching someone else kill her beloved, and having the cause for which she killed her beloved fail because she had delayed so she blames herself for all of what happened.  Oh, and then lying about it to everyone else and framing her for stealing it.  (None of this excuses her - it just paints him correctly from the get-go.)

Sorry, he started stupid, villainous (with the frame) and antagonistic.  Just because many of his actions are parallel to what someone who was trying to do right would do does make it any less so.

_* Required "Captain America and the Winter Soldier" series reference to keep it on topic.  She has no hat and is therefore a sorceress.  Thank you Sam for your flexible taxonomy._


----------



## Blue

hopeless said:


> I'm probably in the minority here, but who would you cast as Harry Dresden?
> I would have liked the one from the tv series despite some people not liking that.





Dire Bare said:


> I really liked Paul Blackthorne in the role. But then again, I've loved him in everything I've seen him do!



How about Christian Kane?  Maybe a little long in the tooth for younger Harry at the beginning of the series, but he call pull of midwestern slugger to snark to gravitas to action to code-of-morals-that-will-never-break.  And can actually play guitar once Lash comes around.


----------



## Older Beholder

Stalker0 said:


> I would argue the head of Sword at least for most of the show is not stupid, he's just evil. He's much less of an imbecile than Monica is, who:




Your opinion of Monica has no bearing on whether or not the S.W.O.R.D guy's an idiot.

I feel like much of this was already covered in the WandaVision thread, but a couple of things worth mentioning...
-The SWORD guy causes Wanda's breakdown when he shows her Vision's body. It's his stupidity that causes her pain to go supernova and engulf the town.
-Wanda is not intentionally torturing the townsfolk, it's more that they can feel her pain, that she's radiating grief. (A metaphor for how someones trauma can also be painful for those around them perhaps?)


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Blue said:


> _* Required "Captain America and the Winter Soldier" series reference to keep it on topic.  She has no hat and is therefore a sorceress.  Thank you Sam for your flexible taxonomy._



But is a headband/tiara thing a kind of hat? It's headgear.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> Darcy knows Dr Selwick that have worked with Avengers and likely have some kind of contact number for at least a few of them.



Selvig knows Thor, who is in space, and doesn't own a phone, Nat, who is dead, Tony, who is dead, Steve, who is retired, Clint, who is retired, Nick Fury, who is a skrull, and Banner, who is injured. So, say Darcy overcomes her ego and decided she is out of her depth. She phones Selvig and manages to get through despite the time zone difference. Selvig phones Banner, and manages to get through, despite the time zone difference. Selvig manages to persuade Banner that he is a) needed (even though he isn't), and b) wants to get involved (even though Banner dislikes fighting and knows nothing about magic). Banner hops on a Greyhound bus (because he is too big for a moped now, and couldn't steer anyway with his arm in a sling), and 24 hours later arrives in Westview. Where he finds there is nothing he can science and nothing he can smash.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> Selvig knows Thor, who is in space, and doesn't own a phone, Nat, who is dead, Tony, who is dead, Steve, who is retired, Clint, who is retired, Nick Fury, who is a skrull, and Banner, who is injured. So, say Darcy overcomes her ego and decided she is out of her depth. She phones Selvig and manages to get through despite the time zone difference. Selvig phones Banner, and manages to get through, despite the time zone difference. Selvig manages to persuade Banner that he is a) needed (even though he isn't), and b) wants to get involved (even though Banner dislikes fighting and knows nothing about magic). Banner hops on a Greyhound bus (because he is too big for a moped now, and couldn't steer anyway with his arm in a sling), and 24 hours later arrives in Westview. Where he finds there is nothing he can science and nothing he can smash.



But to be fair, Banner does know Dr Strange.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> But to be fair, Banner does know Dr Strange.



So he goes round to Bleaker Street and discovers Doctor Strange is watching WandaVision on Bain's Facimilator.

It's well established that Strange has the means to detect and monitor magical anomalies without having to go there in person.


----------



## Rabulias

Paul Farquhar said:


> Clint, who is retired



Even retired, Clint was a close friend with Wanda, or at least had a connection. His words convinced her in _Avengers: Age of Ultron_ to join them against Ultron, he was sent to break her out of the Avengers compound in _Captain America: Civil War_ (and she actually used her powers against Vision (!), though her feelings for Vision were just forming at the time), and she and Clint bonded at the end of _Avengers: Endgame_ after Tony's funeral.

As you say, this was not a situation that called for science or smashing, but maybe needed a good friend. Of course, I doubt Darcy or Selvig knew of the bond between Clint and Wanda. Bruce might, but he was away for much of the above. Additionally, Clint is still dealing with his own issues at this time, but it would have been an interesting element to bring in.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> So he goes round to Bleaker Street and discovers Doctor Strange is watching WandaVision on Bain's Facimilator.
> 
> It's well established that Strange has the means to detect and monitor magical anomalies without having to go there in person.



When you say well-established, we've seen him do it once, during his cameo in Thor Ragnarok, and that was when Thor and Loki bampfed directly into New York City.

When magic-using aliens turned up in Avengers Infinity War, he literally had to hear the panicked screams outside the front door to know they were there.


----------



## Maxperson

hopeless said:


> I'm probably in the minority here, but who would you cast as Harry Dresden?
> I would have liked the one from the tv series despite some people not liking that.



Joe Manganiello.  He's got the rough look and the height.


----------



## hopeless

They wasn't using magic the telekinetic couldn't dispel any of Strange's spells which was why he took him back to his ship for a bit of investigative surgery whilst leaving Strange conscious...


----------



## Stalker0

Blue said:


> He turned into a mustache-twirling villain before the start of the show when he intentionally antagonized a powerful sorceress* who just returned from the Blip and is in triple grief - killing her beloved, watching someone else kill her beloved, and having the cause for which she killed her beloved fail because she had delayed so she blames herself for all of what happened.  Oh, and then lying about it to everyone else and framing her for stealing it.  (None of this excuses her - it just paints him correctly from the get-go.)
> 
> Sorry, he started stupid, villainous (with the frame) and antagonistic.  Just because many of his actions are parallel to what someone who was trying to do right would do does make it any less so.



That's fair, I did forget about him talking to Wanda, without having his team stop literally cutting up the body for 5 minutes. So yeah that's pretty evil.


Paul Farquhar said:


> Selvig knows Thor, who is in space, and doesn't own a phone, Nat, who is dead, Tony, who is dead, Steve, who is retired, Clint, who is retired, Nick Fury, who is a skrull, and Banner, who is injured. So, say Darcy overcomes her ego and decided she is out of her depth. She phones Selvig and manages to get through despite the time zone difference. Selvig phones Banner, and manages to get through, despite the time zone difference. Selvig manages to persuade Banner that he is a) needed (even though he isn't), and b) wants to get involved (even though Banner dislikes fighting and knows nothing about magic). Banner hops on a Greyhound bus (because he is too big for a moped now, and couldn't steer anyway with his arm in a sling), and 24 hours later arrives in Westview. Where he finds there is nothing he can science and nothing he can smash.



As others have mentioned, Banner knows Strange. So Banner contacts him, and says "hey man there's this crazy thing going on". Now maybe Dr Strange says "I know I'm watching it", or is in another dimension and can't be reached....but in that case Wong would go, or another wizard guardian.

But now we are falling into the same trap that my original posts were intended to avoid. Trying to rationalize why these key power players don't show up for these big moments is an exercise in insanity. We can go round and round all day about why X person would or would not show up. The real reason is because we don't have the time and money and desire to bring in all the actors on every single marvel project (that would be true insanity).

I used to do this exercise with every move, be like "wait why wasn't X avenger here, did no one make a phone call?" But I've just learned to accept the premise, that when these things happen lots of phone calls are made, XYZ people aren't available for _some_ reason (whatever your mind needs it to be to accept it) and we move on. But the answer is never "oh we didn't try to contact them"....they definitely are trying, off camera, in the background, people are trying.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> As others have mentioned, Banner knows Strange. So Banner contacts him, and says "hey man there's this crazy thing going on". Now maybe Dr Strange says "I know I'm watching it", or is in another dimension and can't be reached....but in that case Wong would go, or another wizard guardian.



Why would Wong go? The problem resolved itself. You don't send out a fire engine if you don't need to, because it won't be available when a more serious problem arises.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Also, if they were inclined to call in the cavalry every time things got hard, they'd hardly be the type of person to become an Avenger, would they?


----------



## hopeless

Or Wong mentioned they had someone down there looking into it.
And when Strange returned he goes down to check because he might be a douche, but he's not bad enough to not just check in on her given he knows she lost someone close to her.
And then finds Agnes who panics when Strange reverses what Wanda did to her, which leads to him looking for Wanda knowing Agnes used Wanda to hide her securing the Darkhold something that shouldn't have happened, but he was away and Wong wasn't in charge of who was selected to keep an eye on Wanda.
After all she's the Scarlet Witch so obviously those idiots thought sending a witch to keep an eye on her would be fine.
This is still assuming Wong had no idea they had done this.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Doctor Strange was probably fighting off some extradimensional threat at the time. Him returning and getting the message that he's needed to help with Wanda might literally be the beginning of his next movie...


----------



## Older Beholder

All this talk of what the other characters do during the movies they're not in reminds me of when I first began to like Falcon.
His cameo defending the Avengers compound in the Ant-Man movie was really cool. Unfortunately he never got much time in the big ensemble films, I guess that's the beauty of these TV series.


----------



## Stalker0

FitzTheRuke said:


> Doctor Strange was probably fighting off some extradimensional threat at the time. Him returning and getting the message that he's needed to help with Wanda might literally be the beginning of his next movie...



If the opening was literally a bunch of the avengers calling Strange and being like....hey I heard from so and so whose with this Sword group and they found magic....so and so..... my god that would be amazing


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> If the opening was literally a bunch of the avengers calling Strange and being like....hey I heard from so and so whose with this Sword group and they found magic....so and so..... my god that would be amazing



Strange already knows. There is no way he would not know. They showed the "detect magical threats" magic item in the first film.


----------



## hopeless

Paul Farquhar said:


> Strange already knows. There is no way he would not know. They showed the "detect magical threats" magic item in the first film.



Agnes took steps to hide the true scale of the problem after all that reality hex of Wanda's was modified by her otherwise where did Agatha's sanctum with its wards came about?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

hopeless said:


> Agnes took steps to hide the true scale of the problem after all that reality hex of Wanda's was modified by her otherwise where did Agatha's sanctum with its wards came about?



True, Agatha's involvement was probably hidden from magical detection, but the hex itself would have been obvious.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> True, Agatha's involvement was probably hidden from magical detection, but the hex itself would have been obvious.




Except, of course, that it seems the original enchantment seems to have directed people's attention away from the town, and made them forget it existed.  Seemingly, without a specific reason otherwise, folks' attention elides over the entire place.


----------



## Zaukrie

I think I figured out what kept this show from being what I wanted (YMMV, of course). It seemed to lack focus. Like, was it about Sam and Isaac and racism? Bucky's past and how he deals with that? Walker's inability to be nearly perfect (or worse)? Who the Powerbroker is? Zemo and his future? The inevitable difficulty of half the population returning after years of being gone? Again, this is just my feelings, I don't expect anyone to agree or not agree. I think they could have handled 2-3 of these as the main thread, but not all of them (and I get two of those weren't main threads, but they were more major than I'd expect/want).


----------



## Rabulias

FYI, there is a new episode of _Assembled _on Disney+ today with cast and crew interviews and behind-the-scenes of _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier_.


----------



## Dire Bare

Rabulias said:


> Even retired, Clint was a close friend with Wanda, or at least had a connection. His words convinced her in _Avengers: Age of Ultron_ to join them against Ultron, he was sent to break her out of the Avengers compound in _Captain America: Civil War_ (and she actually used her powers against Vision (!), though her feelings for Vision were just forming at the time), and she and Clint bonded at the end of _Avengers: Endgame_ after Tony's funeral.
> 
> As you say, this was not a situation that called for science or smashing, but maybe needed a good friend. Of course, I doubt Darcy or Selvig knew of the bond between Clint and Wanda. Bruce might, but he was away for much of the above. Additionally, Clint is still dealing with his own issues at this time, but it would have been an interesting element to bring in.



Ugh.

I'm not so much responding to @Rabulias, but to this entire line of conjecture. I'm sure we can all spin scenarios where an established player in the MCU could have been brought in to help out with the situation in Westview. I'm also sure we can all spin scenarios where, _due to reasons_, that doesn't happen.

Missing the point.

WandaVision is Wanda's story, not an Avengers story. It's very tight and personal. It doesn't need Strange, Banner, Barton, or any other hero, it would weaken the narrative. tFatWS is also not an Avengers story, it's Sam's story, and to a lesser extent, Bucky's. No other heroes needed.

It's fun sometimes to work in a character you wouldn't expect, like Hulk in a Thor story (Ragnarok). But for the most part, each hero (or small team) deserves their own stories independent of the larger, connected MCU. Of course, the Avengers stories where (almost) everybody comes together are fun too, but they are different kinds of stories.


----------



## Dire Bare

Zaukrie said:


> I think I figured out what kept this show from being what I wanted (YMMV, of course). It seemed to lack focus. Like, was it about Sam and Isaac and racism? Bucky's past and how he deals with that? Walker's inability to be nearly perfect (or worse)? Who the Powerbroker is? Zemo and his future? The inevitable difficulty of half the population returning after years of being gone? Again, this is just my feelings, I don't expect anyone to agree or not agree. I think they could have handled 2-3 of these as the main thread, but not all of them (and I get two of those weren't main threads, but they were more major than I'd expect/want).



Stories can have multiple foci without, ah, losing focus. (boy, that sounds contradictory!)

The main focus of tFatWS is how both Sam and Bucky move on from the traumas they have faced and step into being heroes. Zemo is brought in as a dark mirror, the Flag-Smashers are relatable villains, and Sharon's evolution into a villain . . . all of which support the main narrative of how Sam and Bucky have navigated their personal traumas and the world's trauma (the blip). All of these characters have undergone trauma and pain, Zemo, Morgenthau, and Carter channel their pain into villainy, and relatable villainy at that. Sam and Bucky overcome their trauma and pain and become heroes, despite the temptations to give in to fear, anger, hate, and the Dark Side.

One purpose of the story is to evolve and position Sam and Bucky. Another is to flesh out the world-building events of the Avengers films. Think of them as "A" and "B" plots . . .


----------



## Imaculata

I think the focus of this show was just fine. There is the main plot about the flagsmashers and the legacy of Captain America. And minor plots, such as the power broker and Bucky trying to make peace with his past, and Sam and Bucky learning to work together. There is however a connecting narrative about repairing America and what it stands for. Sam and Bucky's friendship is symbolic of that narrative, as they both learn to focus on the things that bring them together, instead of the things that divide them. And that, ultimately, is the message of the show. Or at least, that is my interpretation. With my interpretation, it seems there was a lot of focus.

The only element I feel was underused, was the power broker. They mention her a lot, but ultimately she was largely underused in the plot.


----------



## MoonSong

Imaculata said:


> The only element I feel was underused, was the power broker. They mention her a lot, but ultimately she was largely underuser in the plot.



She is the bigger bad in the shadows...


----------



## hopeless

Have they announced a season 2 or just Captain America 4 the movie sequel?


----------



## Dire Bare

hopeless said:


> Have they announced a season 2 or just Captain America 4 the movie sequel?



Yes. To both. At least, that's what I think I heard . . . .


----------



## MarkB

Rabulias said:


> FYI, there is a new episode of _Assembled _on Disney+ today with cast and crew interviews and behind-the-scenes of _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier_.



Pretty interesting stuff. I'm always amazed at the amount of CGI that's used in these modern shows / movies simply to achieve small cosmetic effects - like removing awkward folds or fastenings on Sam's new suit. The fact that even detailed visual elements can be changed or created with such perfect fidelity is simultaneously wonderful and rather disturbing.


----------



## hopeless

A second season, regardless of the writing its still better than the CW's Batwoman, but not Superman & Lois.
That's understandable, but its got the potential to be much better.
If it can bin the agenda that seems to be effecting everything nowadays.


----------



## Dire Bare

hopeless said:


> A second season, regardless of the writing its still better than the CW's Batwoman, but not Superman & Lois.
> That's understandable, but its got the potential to be much better.
> If it can bin the agenda that seems to be effecting everything nowadays.



Superhero stories have had this "agenda" you're worried about since the dawn of the genre. Good luck finding a superhero movie or series without it.

These stories are mirrors into our real lives and the problems we face as a society . . . they've never been mindless escapism, not as a genre. Same with most sci-fi, and a lot of fantasy.


----------



## Umbran

hopeless said:


> If it can bin the agenda that seems to be effecting everything nowadays.




It is effecting everything, that's because it is affecting everyone.  Things that impact real people are what make stories _relevant_. 

I mean, really - Cap was created _to punch Nazis_.  You you want a show about a character that's supposed to be the embodiment of truth and justice, and the best we can be to _not_ reference injustices in the world? Come on!


----------



## Imaculata

I prefer to watch a tv show that has something to say, rather than one that doesn't. 

And this show had a very strong message and tackled some very topical issues. I hope that if there is to be a season 2, they continue to send a message. Call it an agenda if you will. I call it meaning and purpose.

However, I do hope they stay clear from the preaching that they did in the last episode.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Imaculata said:


> However, I do hope they stay clear from the preaching that they did in the last episode.



I hope they feel free to have Sam give a speech if it feels right. 

Cap gives speeches about what is right.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

I think oratory is Sam's superpower, and what qualifies him to be Captain America.


----------



## Imaculata

doctorbadwolf said:


> I hope they feel free to have Sam give a speech if it feels right.
> 
> Cap gives speeches about what is right.




That may be so, but I find it a bit cringe. A tvshow can say enough through its narrative, without literally spelling it out to the audience in a speech.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Imaculata said:


> That may be so, but I find it a bit cringe. A tvshow can say enough through its narrative, without literally spelling it out to the audience in a speech.



Captain America is a character, not a TV show. Preaching is in the job description.


----------



## hopeless

Depends on the writer.
Done properly there isn't any preaching just common sense and accepting he's isn't infallible.
I have yet to properly watch Falcon and the Winter Soldier, but aren't surprised their writing has faltered.
Hopefully it will improve in the second season, I did say hopefully!


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Depends on the writer.
> Done properly there isn't any preaching just common sense and accepting he's isn't infallible.
> I have yet to properly watch Falcon and the Winter Soldier, but aren't surprised their writing has faltered.
> Hopefully it will improve in the second season, I did say hopefully!



Wow, so in a show whose theme is prejudice, you've gone ahead and judged it before watching it?


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> It is effecting everything, that's because it is affecting everyone.  Things that impact real people are what make stories _relevant_.
> 
> I mean, really - Cap was created _to punch Nazis_.  You you want a show about a character that's supposed to be the embodiment of truth and justice, and the best we can be to _not_ reference injustices in the world? Come on!



Not only to punch Nazis but to explain to us WHY it is important to punch Nazis.   Without that, it's just violence.  With it, he reminds us why we need to stand up.


----------



## Stalker0

Paul Farquhar said:


> D aCaptain America is a character, not a TV show. Preaching is in the job description.



Yeah giving speeches to me has always been one of Caps superpowers, there is a reason when he speaks people listen, there is a reason that some of the most powerful beings in the universe will follow his leadership.


----------



## hopeless

Judged it?
I've gone by what I've read and watched and still actually hope to watch it properly eventually.
Yes I think the writing needs improving but I didn't come out and compare it to the CW Batwoman now did I?
The only one prejudging anything here is that poster who apparently doesn't care for criticism.
This is a discussion remember?
I'm discussing it.


----------



## hopeless

Here's food for thought what if that illness effecting the settlements is because of Nagel's serum?
The series assumes he got it all worked out despite being blipped and returning, but what if he didn't?
Bradley's serum was derived through circumstances that could easily result in an illness due to it being faulty and given Nagel would have needed guinea pigs to test it on so he could fine tune it how about instead of being successful he caused the pandemic effecting those settlements?
The serum Bucky secured from Stark isn't the only source there's Bucky too what if a version was derived from him and the Stark formula that led to Red Guardian?
Just because they had one success doesn't mean he was the only one just the one to demonstrate powers at the time.
What if Kari got a blood transfusion much like Bradley's grandson got one from his grandfather and that is the true source Sharon is searching for?
Sorry just odd thoughts I got from watching Nando's take on this series.


----------



## Tonguez

Imaculata said:


> That may be so, but I find it a bit cringe. A tvshow can say enough through its narrative, without literally spelling it out to the audience in a speech.




The big speech happened at the end of the last episode, they spent an entire season giving the narrative and earning the privilege of having Sam -_in character - _say_ “hey Kids, dont be dicks” _


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Stalker0 said:


> Yeah giving speeches to me has always been one of Caps superpowers, there is a reason when he speaks people listen, there is a reason that some of the most powerful beings in the universe will follow his leadership.



Exactly. 


Tonguez said:


> The big speech happened at the end of the last episode, they spent an entire season giving the narrative and earning the privilege of having Sam -_in character - _say_ “hey Kids, dont be dicks” _



Also, he isn’t giving some GI Joe special episode speech to the audience. He is showing a Black man that has more than earned the right to speak in that moment, speaking truth to power. 

He doesn’t just remind us what is right, he gets right in the face of powerful people who even after nearly dying are refusing to even consider altering course, and _accusing_ them, in the classical sense of the word.

That scene is absolutely the strongest moment in the show. It _had_ to happen.

It’s like complaining that Luke wins by throwing down his (laser)sword.

Captain America doesn’t win by hitting people. The punching is just how he gets to the place where the people who need to hear him can, so he can say what needs to be said.


----------



## Imaculata

doctorbadwolf said:


> He doesn’t just remind us what is right, he gets right in the face of powerful people who even after nearly dying are refusing to even consider altering course, and _accusing_ them, in the classical sense of the word.




I feel the power of that moment is severely undercut by the fact that he's addressing the leaders of other countries, when he's obviously talking about America.

Lets call it like it is: They chickened out.


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## doctorbadwolf

Imaculata said:


> I feel the power of that moment is severely undercut by the fact that he's addressing the leaders of other countries, when he's obviously talking about America.
> 
> Lets call it like it is: They chickened out.



Um...the main recalcitrant in the scene, who is visibly shaken by the speech, is the US senator who acts as the shows face for  government oversight of the military.

Now, we don’t really see what other countries these folks are representing, but it is very clear throughout the show that the US military is not trusted around the world for good reason, and the most powerful voice on the GRC council is the American senator.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Imaculata said:


> I feel the power of that moment is severely undercut by the fact that he's addressing the leaders of other countries, when he's obviously talking about America.
> 
> Lets call it like it is: They chickened out.




He is addressing the leaders of the GRC, who may or may not have more power than the leaders of nations, and he is talking about a global refugee crisis, something parts of the real world have been dealing with too. In the MCU, these are refugees of all races and ethnicities and religions because of the return Blip, not just a single one. The race and bias stuff dealt with by the show are totally different from what the GRC is doing and I did not think his big speech was directly about that.


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## Dire Bare

Imaculata said:


> I feel the power of that moment is severely undercut by the fact that he's addressing the leaders of other countries, when he's obviously talking about America.
> 
> Lets call it like it is: They chickened out.



What? Did we watch the same show?

The Flag-Smashers were a global movement based out of Europe. The governments of the entire world, under the umbrella of the GRC (a UN analog) were meeting to decide to displace refugees . . . all over the world.

The Marvel movies are made (mostly) by Americans for an American audience . . . but our problems with how we treat displaced people with fairness and compassion is a GLOBAL issue today, right now, in the real world.


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## Imaculata

Dire Bare said:


> The Marvel movies are made (mostly) by Americans for an American audience . . . but our problems with how we treat displaced people with fairness and compassion is a GLOBAL issue today, right now, in the real world.




Of course. But lets not ignore that the show is making its statement in a post Trump world. If any country has treated immigrants poorly the last few years, it is the USA. So to have Captain America lecture their analogue for the UN is kinda rich. It literally made me scoff at the screen.


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## Older Beholder

-


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## Paul Farquhar

Imaculata said:


> Of course. But lets not ignore that the show is making its statement in a post Trump world. If any country has treated immigrants poorly the last few years, it is the USA. So to have Captain America lecture their analogue for the UN is kinda rich. It literally made me scoff at the screen.



It's very American-centric to think that America is the only country that has treated immigrants very poorly over the last couple of years. At least the refugees don't often drown trying to cross the US boarder.


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## Nikosandros

Imaculata said:


> Of course. But lets not ignore that the show is making its statement in a post Trump world. If any country has treated immigrants poorly the last few years, it is the USA. So to have Captain America lecture their analogue for the UN is kinda rich. It literally made me scoff at the screen.



It is far from being only an American problem. Here in Europe it is huge. There are people drowning in the Mediterranean Sea while governments bounce responsibilities.


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## Umbran

Janx said:


> Not only to punch Nazis but to explain to us WHY it is important to punch Nazis.   Without that, it's just violence.  With it, he reminds us why we need to stand up.




Yes, but as a point of rhetoric, adding that would not have been as... punchy a line.


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## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The race and bias stuff dealt with by the show are totally different from what the GRC is doing and I did not think his big speech was directly about that.




It isn't as if the way refugees are treated around the world isn't rooted in racism...


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## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's very American-centric to think that America is the only country that has treated immigrants very poorly over the last couple of years. At least the refugees don't often drown trying to cross the US boarder.



Yes, but Captian *America *was arguing with an *American* Senator about it.  That's what made it seem like the writers were talking about America.  Not once did Captain America turn to address any leaders of other countries with his speech, and not one leader from another country stepped forward to give excuses.  If they wanted it to be addressing world issues, they should have had various world leaders engage him.


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## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> Yes, but Captian *America *was arguing with an *American* Senator about it.  That's what made it seem like the writers were talking about America.  Not once did Captain America turn to address any leaders of other countries with his speech, and not one leader from another country stepped forward to give excuses.  If they wanted it to be addressing world issues, they should have had various world leaders engage him.




So, as usual, things are not that simple.  It is reasonable for an American citizen to lecture an American official on ethics.  It is rather less appropriate for Americans to be lecturing others on right and wrong.  While I agree that the message is quite applicable to the world at large, Sam focused that message on the appropriate recipient.  

It isn't like the other officials present didn't hear it, and hadn't just themselves been victims of their own poor policy choices.  In that scene, they did, in fact, give us reaction shots of one or two other officials.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> It isn't as if the way refugees are treated around the world isn't rooted in racism...




It is much a skin-tone thing as anything else. Lighter-skin Caucasians treat darker-skin Caucasians poorly. Lighter-skin Black people treat darker-skin Black people poorly. And I am sure there is a version of this in Asian countries too. This is where Ethnic hatred, rather than Racism, comes into play, and I think that was there subtly, with a lot of the show being set in Eastern Europe. But in the MCU, every single country is dealing with the refugee, or displaced people, problem, because of the sudden return of over 3 million people, and not just specific real-world countries.


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## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> So, as usual, things are not that simple.  It is reasonable for an American citizen to lecture an American official on ethics.  It is rather less appropriate for Americans to be lecturing others on right and wrong.  While I agree that the message is quite applicable to the world at large, Sam focused that message on the appropriate recipient.
> 
> It isn't like the other officials present didn't hear it, and hadn't just themselves been victims of their own poor policy choices.  In that scene, they did, in fact, give us reaction shots of one or two other officials.



When Putin annexed Crimea, it was the right thing to do for other countries to speak out against what he did.  It wasn't in any way inappropriate and we shouldn't have waited for someone from Russia to step up and do it.

As you say, Captain America falls on the morally correct side of things, and that includes speaking out against injustices done by other countries and their leadership. This is especially true if those multiple countries have come together as a joint body, the way they did in the show.


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## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> When Putin annexed Crimea....




I'm not going to get into real-world specifics if I can avoid it.


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## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> I'm not going to get into real-world specifics if I can avoid it.



Yeah.  I wasn't trying to discuss that situation.  It was just a counter example and then I went on to apply it to Captain America.


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## Dire Bare

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> It is much a skin-tone thing as anything else. Lighter-skin Caucasians treat darker-skin Caucasians poorly. Lighter-skin Black people treat darker-skin Black people poorly. And I am sure there is a version of this in Asian countries too. This is where Ethnic hatred, rather than Racism, comes into play, and I think that was there subtly, with a lot of the show being set in Eastern Europe. But in the MCU, every single country is dealing with the refugee, or displaced people, problem, because of the sudden return of over 3 million people, and not just specific real-world countries.



Ethnic hatred, discrimination by skin color, racism . . . . it's all the same thing. Parsing these things out as if they are different is odd.

In the MCU, the entire world is dealing with a refugee crisis . . . . kinda. They don't get too into the details, but it mirrors the real-world migration problems we face, with folks trying to escape poverty, war, oppression, and environmental disasters in developing countries and immigrating (or trying to) to the developed countries of Europe, the US, Australia, and others. It's just that in the MCU, all of a sudden the developing countries had space and actually wanted people to immigrate . . . until the blipped folks returned, that is.

There's a reason why most of the Flag-Smasher action took place in Europe.


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## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> Yes, but Captian *America *was arguing with an *American* Senator about it.  That's what made it seem like the writers were talking about America.  Not once did Captain America turn to address any leaders of other countries with his speech, and not one leader from another country stepped forward to give excuses.  If they wanted it to be addressing world issues, they should have had various world leaders engage him.



That's not entirely accurate. He was addressing three members of the GRC, including the American senator, and he maintained eye contact with each of them in turn throughout that speech. The American senator was the most vocal, but he wasn't the only one to speak.


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## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> Yes, but Captian *America *was arguing with an *American* Senator about it.  That's what made it seem like the writers were talking about America.  Not once did Captain America turn to address any leaders of other countries with his speech, and not one leader from another country stepped forward to give excuses.  If they wanted it to be addressing world issues, they should have had various world leaders engage him.



This is simply false, if you rewatch the scene. The senator isn't even the one that sparks the speech from Sam, it's the lady saying that the "terrorists" only managed to slow them down, and Sam gets in her face nearly as much as he does the senator's.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Dire Bare said:


> Ethnic hatred, discrimination by skin color, racism . . . . it's all the same thing. Parsing these things out as if they are different is odd.




Unfortunately, humans have a great ability to hate anyone who does not look like them.


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## RangerWickett

A tweak suggested by YouTuber Nando v Movies sounded like an improvement for me, and I'm adding a few more tweaks:

1. The series starts with no Flag Smashers, just Karli Morgenthau, a former criminal associate of the Power Broker who stole doses of super soldier serum, took one for herself, and snuck back to Europe to try to help people she knew who are now refugees. The first episode ends with her robbing a bank, and getting filmed hurling a security guard fifteen feet, so that he smashes into a flagpole, which shatters, dropping a flag into a fire. She sees people recording her, and says this money is for refugees, and that the world should have no borders. This catches the public's attention because she's a Robin Hood figure, and gets Sam's attention because she's maybe a super soldier.

2. In episode two she gets more allies as people flock to her cause, and they try to hijack some vaccines in transit, and one of her allies is recording the heist, intending to release it later for propaganda and recruitment. They're actually thwarted in getting the vaccines, and some of her new allies get captured by John Walker, but Karli and the rest escape, and the video shows her kicking butt, and shows Cap and company trying to keep vaccines out of the hands of those who need them. At the end of the episode, after Sam and Bucky go meet Isaiah Bradley, we see Karli give doses of the super soldier serum to some of the members of her team.

3. Ep three opens with the newly super-soldiered flag smashers breaking into a jail to rescue their teammates who were arrested, and one of them kills a guard. Karli admonishes him, saying that they're not killers. Again, all of this is streamed and shared online. The evidence that there are now multiple super soldiers makes this urgent, and drives Bucky and Sam to get Zemo released to help them find the source. The rest of the episode is basically the same.

4. Ep four is very similar, including the scene with Karli and Sam talking, only to have Walker ruin everything. The big change in this ep is that in the climax, the same reckless super-soldier flag smasher who killed someone last episode kills Lamar . . . and this time the person John Walker kills is *Karli*, again, all filmed and shared online.

5. Small change to ep five. The leaderless flag smashers are thus driven to be more radical and violent, and in the end the Power Broker sends Batroc to recruit them for a terror attack on the GRC. Sharon tips off the authorities, saying she intercepted the Power Broker's message to Batroc. (This, we'll discover later, was to help her get back into a useful position in the CIA. If some violence leads to more instability and demand for the weapons she sells, all the better.)

6. If you want to be really on the nose, you have the Flag Smashers kidnap the GRC, load them on helicopters, and fly them to Liberty Island, to execute them in front of the inscription of the Emma Lazarus poem, the New Colossus. As usual, they're recording, only once they have the hostages, they start livestreaming. Sam can fight Batroc, and Bucky deals with other super soldiers (with John Walker _not_ getting any sort of moment of redemption; he just doesn't show up except in the epilogue). Then when the choppers fly, Sam can do the same trick where he kicks a guy out and then has a hostage take over flying; but one of the choppers makes it to Liberty Island.

And that's when Sam lands and _talks _the situation through, winning by deescalating the situation. Some other helicopters are around, with tactical teams - and with Bucky, with a rifle, ready to kill the flag smashers but hoping he doesn't have to. And Sam gets them to trust him by speaking to the politicians, explaining that millions of people agreed with Karli, and that the GRC's plan is just going to radicalize more people, but that they could instead use their power to help these people. Then with that trust he persuades the flag smashers to surrender.


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## Umbran

RangerWickett said:


> A tweak suggested by YouTuber Nando v Movies sounded like an improvement for me, and I'm adding a few more tweaks:




I am not sure this is a thread for detailing out fanfic.


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## FitzTheRuke

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Unfortunately, humans have a great ability to hate anyone who does not look like them.



They can even look like them! In small enough communities, people become mistrustful of those that they do not personally _know_! And sometimes hate the village over the hill! (Of course, when faced with a common enemy that does not look like them, those that look more alike will usually side together.)

Tribal, we all are, sadly.


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## RangerWickett

Umbran said:


> I am not sure this is a thread for detailing out fanfic.



Consider it criticism. 

There is a way the story could have been more effective.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

FitzTheRuke said:


> They can even look like them! In small enough communities, people become mistrustful of those that they do not personally _know_! And sometimes hate the village over the hill! (Of course, when faced with a common enemy that does not look like them, those that look more alike will usually side together.)
> 
> Tribal, we all are, sadly.




Humanity will never eliminate all the biases we have, but we need to somehow eliminate the crossing of the line from dislike to hate, from internal to external, where it turns into discrimination and violence. This show was good about these matters, but the people that really need this lesson will refuse to watch it and will stay in their little bubble of hate and fear and ignorance and mistrust.


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## doctorbadwolf

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Humanity will never eliminate all the biases we have, but we need to somehow eliminate the crossing of the line from dislike to hate, from internal to external, where it turns into discrimination and violence. This show was good about these matters, but the people that really need this lesson will refuse to watch it and will stay in their little bubble of hate and fear and ignorance and mistrust.



I think it’s more important for Cap to tell people they need to stand up and say something when they see injustice, than it is for him to try and tell people to not be unjust.


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## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Unfortunately, humans have a great ability to hate anyone who does not look like them.



They are just as good at hating people who don't sound like them, or don't dress like them, or don't believe the same things as them.


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## Umbran

RangerWickett said:


> Consider it criticism.




How effective was it as criticism if you have to tell me after the fact to think of it that way?


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## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> How effective was it as criticism if you have to tell me after the fact to think of it that way?



For perspective, it came across as exactly that to me. It’s a fairly common way to express criticism. Heck, multiple did it in the wandavision thread.


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## hopeless

Watched that video and quite liked it.
Enough to wonder what if Nagel rather than perfecting the serum has been testing a flawed one based on Bradley's blood.
The haphazard process that gave him his abilities rendered any serum made from his blood very dangerous to anyone not related to him.
Thus the illness Kari is seeking vaccines for is directly tied to the faulty serum as Nagel is preying on the homeless as test subjects to perfect his serum and in the process is slowly causing an epidemic regular medicine can't treat.
Zemo learns about it because his butler the one family tie he has left came down with the illness and was saved with a blood transfusion from the same person who saved Kari's life.
The butler helped fund her efforts to treat the homeless and in return learned that a faulty super soldier serum was responsible which leads to Zemo being willing to help Sam and Bucky to eliminate this threat to everybody.
Sorry that's even more of a fan fic, but as I said I liked that tweak!


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## moriantumr

I drive a 14 year old around pretty often, I have been caring for him about 10 years, and he loves this show. We have discussed issues of race and justice frequently over the past year, and nothing has really made him understand racism and its consequences until he watched the show. He came to me and told me what he learned. He, like many, like comics and the marvel universe because it is exciting and relatable. He was able to see the pain that Isaiah Bradley had, and see how Sam chose to respond to that pain, as well as his own. I was proud of him, and appreciate this show even more because it is helping people with its message.


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## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> For perspective, it came across as exactly that to me.




That's nice. Congrats, I guess. You with the prize.



> It’s a fairly common way to express criticism. Heck, multiple did it in the wandavision thread.




Noting a bit here and there is one thing.  After the fact, rewriting _the entire series_, episode by episode, to meet your own preferences... well, whatever.  Not gonna die on this hill.


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## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> That's nice. Congrats, I guess. You with the prize.



It’s not a competition, I’m just pointing out that you’re acting like it’s weird to criticize a work by hypothetically rewriting it, but it’s not. 


Umbran said:


> Noting a bit here and there is one thing.  After the fact, rewriting _the entire series_, episode by episode, to meet your own preferences... well, whatever.  Not gonna die on this hill.



Okay. It’s a matter of preference.


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## trappedslider




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## trappedslider

Marvel Reveals Why Bucky's Arm Had Wakanda Failsafe
					

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier's VFX supervisor revealed the trick to Bucky Barnes' vibranium arm.




					thedirect.com


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## Imaculata

RangerWickett said:


> 6. If you want to be really on the nose, you have the Flag Smashers kidnap the GRC, load them on helicopters, and fly them to Liberty Island, to execute them in front of the inscription of the Emma Lazarus poem, the New Colossus. As usual, they're recording, only once they have the hostages, they start livestreaming. Sam can fight Batroc, and Bucky deals with other super soldiers (with John Walker _not_ getting any sort of moment of redemption; he just doesn't show up except in the epilogue). Then when the choppers fly, Sam can do the same trick where he kicks a guy out and then has a hostage take over flying; but one of the choppers makes it to Liberty Island.
> 
> And that's when Sam lands and _talks _the situation through, winning by deescalating the situation. Some other helicopters are around...


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## RangerWickett

A friend of mine told me that growing up, he thought that Cobra had some special unit called Estefoes. Because the song mentions "Deadly Estefoes."


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## pukunui

I have finally got around to watching this show all the way through.

Two thoughts:

1) The Sharon as Power Broker side plot struck me as a setup for a future series / movie, just like Monica gaining her powers in WandaVision was a setup for The Marvels.

2) How did Bucky get the prison keycard into Zemo’s book? I haven’t been able to figure that one out.


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## trappedslider




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## Dire Bare

pukunui said:


> 2) How did Bucky get the prison keycard into Zemo’s book? I haven’t been able to figure that one out.



He's the Winter Soldier! He's that good!

I don't think the writer's had a definitive answer to that, and just chalked it up to Bucky's super-human competence. Sometimes a character pulling off something impossible like it was easy-peasy, without explanation . . . is part of the fun!


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## DrunkonDuty

Finally got to sit down and watch the whole series.

Really enjoyed it. About the only criticism I can think of is why did Power Broker give up Nagel and their access to super soldier serum? 

Then I came and read the thread. The whole thing. (I'm a glutton for punishment.)

And that's why a bunch of you have probably woken up to find a bunch of "likes" on your Enworld accounts.


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