# Hercules in Deities and Demigods



## Citizen K (Mar 4, 2002)

Hey all,

I was briefly flipping through the latest issue of Game Trade Magazine at the comic shop the other day, when I noticed an excerpt from the upcoming Deities and Demigods. I didn't get to examine it in detail, but I did get this much: Hercules weighs in at level 20 barbarian / level 20 fighter.

Ouch.


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## Darkness (Mar 4, 2002)

Interesting...

Do you know if Iuz (Greyhawk Pantheon) is there, BTW?


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## thalmin (Mar 4, 2002)

The pages from  the new DDG included in the Game Trade only covered Hercules (nearly 2 pages on him) and Hermes. Greyhawk's pantheon will be covered, but no idea how much or who.


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## William Ronald (Mar 4, 2002)

Hi, Curt:

Again thanks for running a great friendly game shop.  I will try to drive the 30 or so miles between home and your store when I have some more spending cash.

I can definitely see Heracles (the original Greek name for Hercules) having levels of Barbarian. His rage was truly epic in mythology.  Of course, Hera would provoke him to rage to try to wreck his life.  (Any resemblances between the mythological Hercules and a character played by Kevin Sorbo are almost coincidental.  Sorry,  as someone who has read and enjoyed the Illiad, the Odyssey and other works,  I kept on wincing at the series.)

Also, do remember that a demigod is more than just levels.


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## Glyfair (Mar 4, 2002)

Since they actually printed 4 pages from D&D you get to see the tail end of Hera's entry and the beginning of Hestia's.  It looks like they are going to have additional domains (at least some of the ones from FR) since one of Hestia's is listed as Community.

BTW, for those who care:  Hermes is a Rogue 20/Wizard 20 with a Divine Rank of 15 (vs. Hercules' Divine Rank 5) whatever that is.  Each of the gods has a "Portfolio Sense" that allows them to sense things dealing with their areas.  For example, Hera is aware of every marriage and knows whenever a husband cheats on his wife (with one exception...the one "guy" she'd like to be able to keep track of).

Glyfair of Glamis


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## mmadsen (Mar 4, 2002)

> Hercules weighs in at level 20 barbarian / level 20 fighter.




Given that 20th-level is sort of the "entry point" to "epic" play, I would've expected Herc to have been a 20th-level Barbarian.  He fits the class quite well -- terrible rage, wields a club, wears a lion skin -- and I'm not sure why he even needed Fighter levels.  Needed archery feats?


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 4, 2002)

Very Interesting! 

A few things I am curious about:

Hercules/Hermes: hp; ability scores; # attacks; BAB; damage; weaponry etc.


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## qstor (Mar 4, 2002)

I think they are going to have the Greyhawk lite gods from the PHB. No Iuz, Tharizdun or Wastri 

Mike


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## kkoie (Mar 4, 2002)

I too would be interested as to what stats etc etc have been assigned to Herc.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 4, 2002)

*A few other questions.*

What was the art like? Since it was mentioned thepages are copied from D&Dg I presume at least Herc and Hermes were shown.

Also were the details for both the Deity and Avatar given within (what I assume to be 3 columns per deity) the same entry?

Thanks in advance.


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## Vrylakos (Mar 5, 2002)

*GRRRRRRR*

Ok.... once upon  a time I wrote a reply twice and the boards ate it. So, this will be abbreviated and I"m working from memory...

The art is very very nice. Full color, and the better artists (IMO).

Hercules, Str 55 before raging, +65 to hit with first attack, 800 hp, demi god.divine rank 5....

Hermes, 680 hp (?) AC 84 (?)
Can make any magic item instantly worth 200,000 gp or less.
Is a 20th level wizard, 20th level rogue. Has crippling strike amongst others... divine rank either 8 or ten, I forget...

Hestia's picture is also in the preview, and it's very nice... for a sec I thought diTerlizzi had done it.

Divine Rank seems to allow higher ranked gods to use their abilities on divinities of lower rank, but not vis-versa.
Also, divinities DO NOT fail a save on a roll of 1.

More perhaps later...

VRYLAKOS


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## Rubeus Hagrid (Mar 5, 2002)

*As an aside...*



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> *(Any resemblances between the mythological Hercules and a character played by Kevin Sorbo are almost coincidental.  Sorry,  as someone who has read and enjoyed the Illiad, the Odyssey and other works,  I kept on wincing at the series.) *




  A bit off-topic, but there's a reason for that. After the Network screwed over Gerard Christopher to move from being Superboy to Superman, Sorbo had locked in the part as Kal-El on Lois & Clark. That went away the moment Dean Cain and Terry Hatcher evoked the Christopher Reeve/Margot Kidder chemistry and ramped it up to Moonlighting levels (Thus making a fantastic Moolighting 2, but a hideously awful Superman).

  So really, Hercules (and Dylan Hunt, thank Goddess that Andromeda is back to normal.. It was getting  grim, dark, dreary, realistic, and all the other things I hate and half the EN Members worship) is Kevin Sorbo playing Superman in another venue.


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## Methinkus (Mar 5, 2002)

> (Any resemblances between the mythological Hercules and a character played by Kevin Sorbo are almost coincidental. Sorry, as someone who has read and enjoyed the Illiad, the Odyssey and other works, I kept on wincing at the series.)




Hey I thought that the show was very entertaining – though admittedly in almost no way related to actual myths – and I was sorry to see it end so quickly.  I am saying this as a person who likes to consider himself reasonably well read and defiantly familiar with Greek legends.  In fact, I thought that the Iliad itself was almost too boring to be tolerated.  Let me tell you, I’m no fan of book burning, but the occasional epic poem might be better off inside a fireplace than a library . . . . . .


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## jasamcarl (Mar 5, 2002)

*About Divine Rank*

If what has been said is true, then the class/level breakdown might only dictate battles between gods, presuming non-divine have a rationg of 0. Or perhaps it simply dictates a certain loyalty to a pantheon, as the discretions the head of a pantheon has over his underlings is qualitativly different than what a god excercises over followers, in which case it is possible for a mortal to battle a god with a hope of success but the sworn vassal of Zeus is in some respects less effective in that particular role. This could open the way to an interesting realm of worshiper/divine politics.


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## ColonelHardisson (Mar 5, 2002)

By today's standards, the ancient mythical Herc wasn't very heroic, not in the sense we commonly mean today. I've read a lot of Greek epics, and not many of the characters in any of them are heroic in the modern sense - they're usually a bunch of self-centered, murderous thugs. Yep, they're interesting to read about, but I always hoped they'd get thoroughly thrashed by someone halfway decent. That someone just never seems to show up. It just shows the differences between societies and times. Sorta like how Aristophanes' plays were rather like the Saturday Night Live of his time, with satirical commentary on figures and events that were contemporaneous with the writing and performance of those plays, but which today can be baffling to the reader .

I like the idea of heroes reflecting their times. So Sorbo's Herc was a real goody-two-shoes in a thoroughly silly TV show. I still would root for him over his dimwitted, hair-triggered counterpart from ancient mythology. Matter of fact, it would've been cool if they'd actually tried something like that on the show - maybe even a "meeting of the Hercs" from a multitude of parallel dimensions, each different, each reflecting the society he's from.


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## William Ronald (Mar 5, 2002)

You are right as usual, ColonelHardisson.  Most of the heroes of Greek myth were not exactly glorious.  Women were chattel to many and few of the heroes were heroic.  (I sometimes winced at the TV show because it seemed to be almost a whitewash.)

The paucity of truly good heroes in Greek myths made such bold figures as Perseus and Theseus (although he did kidnap the young Helen away from her island) truly refreshing.  Indeed, Theseus demonstrated the value of friendship in standing with Hercules after he killed his family.   

It must be said that the ancient world was not a gentle place.  Its heroes were, by today's standards, vicious.  Many would be considered war criminals.  (I will not even get into the Roman Empire.  Let us say I fully understand why the defenders of Masada chose death over Roman slavery and torture.)


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## Darkness (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: GRRRRRRR*



			
				Vrylakos said:
			
		

> *Hercules, Str 55 before raging, +65 to hit with first attack, 800 hp, demi god.divine rank 5....
> 
> Hermes, 680 hp (?) AC 84 (?)
> Can make any magic item instantly worth 200,000 gp or less.
> Is a 20th level wizard, 20th level rogue. Has crippling strike amongst others... divine rank either 8 or ten, I forget...*



Ouch!! Niiice!  Heh. Upper Krust will love this, I'd wager...


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## jasamcarl (Mar 5, 2002)

*On the topic of heroes*

If we are specifically referring to the archaic/classical conception on the heroic figure, let us not forget the political overtones of that view, specifically the Homeric one. Many of these tales represented a condemnation of the feudal institutions that had preceded the dark ages, a time when individual power took stage over that of the community (future polis). Note the tragic overtones in Epic Cycle, in which men of power are continuously brought low. No, there were no 'Good' heroes, specifically because the Greeks did not take much note of the the abstract 'Good' that is being referenced here (Only with Plato, and only at a much later stage). Virtue was always attached to material power relationships.


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## AmerginLiath (Mar 5, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Sorta like how Aristophanes' plays were rather like the Saturday Night Live of his time... *




Ha!  Never thought of it quite that way before...


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## mmadsen (Mar 5, 2002)

> So Sorbo's Herc was a real goody-two-shoes in a thoroughly silly TV show. I still would root for him over his dimwitted, hair-triggered counterpart from ancient mythology. Matter of fact, it would've been cool if they'd actually tried something like that on the show - maybe even a "meeting of the Hercs" from a multitude of parallel dimensions, each different, each reflecting the society he's from.




In rereading some tales of Heracles recently, I felt shocked that modern writers (in the Herc TV show) would drop the "modern" idea of a troubled hero trying to overcome his fits of rage and melancholy (manic depression?), and stuck with the very bland Superman ideal instead.

Further, how can you not have Herc dressed in a lion skin carrying a club?


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## Glyfair (Mar 5, 2002)

Some more info:

Statblocks look like this (when I give an example, I'll use Herc's)

NAME
Classes
Type (i.e. Medium-Size Outsider (Chaotic, Good) )
Divine Rank:
Hit Dice:
Initiative
Speed (Herc is 70 ft)
AC
Attacks
Damage
Face/Reach
Special Attacks
Special Qualities (Herc has Divine Immunities, DR 40/+4 (4/-), fire resistance 25, understand, speak, and read all languages and speak directly to all beings within 15 miles, remote communications, godly realm, teleport without error at will, fast movement, uncanny dodge, SR 37, divine aura (50 ft. DC 22)
Saves:  (Herc has Fort +36, Ref +28, Will +26)
Abilities:
Skills:
Feats:
Divine Immunities:
Salient Divine Abilities:  (Alter Size, Divine Rage, Divine Weapon Focus (greatclub), Divine Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Indomitable Strength)
Domain Powers: (5/day reroll a die roll once after it is made;5/day feat of strength (+5 enhancement bonus to Str for 1 round)
Spell-Like abilities:  (Herc uses his as a 15th level caster, Hermes as 25th level caster)
Possesions (Hercules has the skin of the Nemian lion which is a +10 armor bonus and it reduces damage from piercing and slashing weapons by half)

Other Divine Powers:
Senses:
Portfolio Sense:
Automatic Actions: (Her can use any Str or Dex based skill as a free action if the DC is 15 or lower if he has the skill or it can be used untrained)
Create Magic Items: (Her can creat simple or martial magic weapons and nonwritten items that boost physical abilities as long as the market price is 4,500 gp or less)

Glyfair of Glamis

Glyfair


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: GRRRRRRR*

Hi all! 

Thanks for the additional info.



			
				Darkness said:
			
		

> *Ouch!! Niiice!  Heh. Upper Krust will love this, I'd wager...  *




Indeed, though the more we learn here seemingly the less we know.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *If what has been said is true, then the class/level breakdown might only dictate battles between gods, presuming non-divine have a rating of 0. Or perhaps it simply dictates a certain loyalty to a pantheon, as the discretions the head of a pantheon has over his underlings is qualitatively different than what a god excercises over followers, in which case it is possible for a mortal to battle a god with a hope of success but the sworn vassal of Zeus is in some respects less effective in that particular role. This could open the way to an interesting realm of worshiper/divine politics. *




The Divine Rank figure is somewhat puzzling; though from an initial glance it seems it must be a physical factor in some capacity.

Physically Hercules and Hermes seem roughly equal yet Hermes is an Intermediate deity while Herc is _merely_ a demideity. So that alone suggests Divine Rank must be a multiplier (?) or bonus (?) in some way.

To make it as simple as a divine trump card would return to making divine combat arbitrary - so I am sure we can rule that out.

Looking at the stats for Hercules I wonder does it affect things like Domain Powers (which Herc can seeminly use 5/day...can Hermes use his powers the same number of times as his Divine Rank?)

My guess is that it also corresponds to things like Divine Rage; Divine Weapon Focus; Divine Weapon Specialisation.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Some more info:
> 
> Statblocks look like this (when I give an example, I'll use Herc's) *




Have they made a mistake with Hercules Fort saves?

Barbarian 20 (+12); Fighter 20 (+12); Con 38* (+14)

*I'm guessing this based on average hit points adding up to 800.

Shouldn't his Fort be +38?

A few other points.

#1. Does Hercules get 8 attacks/round?

#2. What damage does he do? (1d10+48?)

#3. What Challenge Ratings are attributed to both Herc and Hermes?

#4. Are Avatars mentioned for either?

#5. Out of curiousity what are his Divine Immunities?


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## kkoie (Mar 5, 2002)

I don't know... Hercules, despite his great strength, always seemed like one of the wimpier dieties in the origonal DDG since he was mearly a DemiGod.  I'm wondering what the other Gods will be like stat-wise.  In any event, how does WoTC's Herc. add up to the Immortal Handbook Converted Herc. Upper-Krust? 

K Koie


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## ColonelHardisson (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: On the topic of heroes*



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *If we are specifically referring to the archaic/classical conception on the heroic figure, let us not forget the political overtones of that view, specifically the Homeric one. Many of these tales represented a condemnation of the feudal institutions that had preceded the dark ages, a time when individual power took stage over that of the community (future polis). Note the tragic overtones in Epic Cycle, in which men of power are continuously brought low. No, there were no 'Good' heroes, specifically because the Greeks did not take much note of the the abstract 'Good' that is being referenced here (Only with Plato, and only at a much later stage). Virtue was always attached to material power relationships. *




And, again, this emphasizes that heroes (and heroic tales) reflect the society in which they originate. That's why, even though heroes like Hercules/Herakles may resonate with many cultures and eras, they still have to undergo some changes to suit different places and times.

Regarding mmadsen's statement about Sorbo's Hercules dropping the tragic hero angle, it could be that was a way of going against very recent modern conventions. That is, the troubled hero may have become as cliched as the lantern-jawed flawless heroes of past decades once were, and Sorbo's Hercules was a (most likely unconscious) reaction to this.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 5, 2002)

Hey kkoie mate! 



			
				kkoie said:
			
		

> *In any event, how does WoTC's Herc. add up to the Immortal Handbook Converted Herc. Upper-Krust? *




From what I can tell they are pretty much identical (relatively speaking). I may have had Hercs strength a bit higher though and DR and SR slightly lower but overall not much difference between the two interpretations. His Wisdom score does seem a bit high though (38 if I read between the line correctly!?)

Though that said, Hermes is something of a quandary (a _mere_40th-level Intermediate Deity) but I imagine that has something to do with Divine Rank, hopefully the more people post information the more we can determine its purpose.


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## CaptainCalico (Mar 5, 2002)

*regarding Herc*



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Regarding mmadsen's statement about Sorbo's Hercules dropping the tragic hero angle, it could be that was a way of going against very recent modern conventions. That is, the troubled hero may have become as cliched as the lantern-jawed flawless heroes of past decades once were, and Sorbo's Hercules was a (most likely unconscious) reaction to this. *




Oh I think it was very conscious. It was quite refreshing to have the hero actually be a nice, reasonably well-adjusted person after the whole slew of 80's angry, angst-ridden anti-heros. (KS even reffered to Herc as "Minnesota nice" once in an interview. I lived there for a year, and I agree!) Of course they reverted to form with Xena, but that's another thread....

DDG looks very promising!


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## Glyfair (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: GRRRRRRR*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi all!
> 
> Thanks for the additional info.
> 
> ...




His physical stats are Str 55, Dex 25 & Con 28.  

His hit points are listed as 20d12+180 (Bbn) plus 20d10+180 (Ftr)

Damage is 1d10+51 with his greatclub (and only 4 attacks) and 1d8+14 with his mighty distance composite longbow.  

Hermes & Hera have an avatars, Herc doesn't.  No challenge ratings that I notice on this quick go through.

Hercs divine immunities are:  Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-effecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation.

BTW, at note on herc says that "As an ascended mortal, Hercules does not have outsider Hit Dice as other members of the pantheon do."  There is a lot that can speculated from this (how are other pantheons handled, is it a function of Divine Rank, etc)

Well, I'm running late for work, so ta-ta.


Glyfair of Glamis


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 5, 2002)

*Thanks Glyfair (and others)*

Hi all! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *His physical stats are Str 55, Dex 25 & Con 28.*




Excellent*.

*just call me Montgomery Burns. 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *His hit points are listed as 20d12+180 (Bbn) plus 20d10+180 (Ftr)*




Excellent. 

I wonder who else had been touting max. hit points for deities for over a year now... 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Damage is 1d10+51 with his greatclub (and only 4 attacks) and 1d8+14 with his mighty distance composite longbow.*




Excellent. 

I have been an advocate of halting attacks at 4 for some time now.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Hermes & Hera have avatars, Herc doesn't.*




Excellent.

I don't think Demigods (or less) should be able to have (proper) Avatars anyway.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *No challenge ratings that I notice on this quick go through.*




Hercules looks about CR 33.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Hercs divine immunities are:  Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-effecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation.*




That doesn't really leave you much to play with...I would hate to see Zeus' immunities! 

In fact to be honest the above list seems a bit preposterous.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *BTW, at note on herc says that "As an ascended mortal, Hercules does not have outsider Hit Dice as other members of the pantheon do."*




Excellent.

...yes chalk another one up (as any regular to the WPS/IH threads will concur).



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *There is a lot that can speculated from this (how are other pantheons handled, is it a function of Divine Rank, etc)*




Divine Rank is going to be a very important factor I envisage.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Well, I'm running late for work, so ta-ta.
> 
> Glyfair of Glamis *




Thanks so much!


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## Talath (Mar 5, 2002)

> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by Glyfair
> Hercs divine immunities are: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-effecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation.
> ...




I dunno, it looks fine to me.


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## kkoie (Mar 5, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *From what I can tell they are pretty much identical (relatively speaking). I may have had Hercs strength a bit higher though and DR and SR slightly lower but overall not much difference between the two interpretations. His Wisdom score does seem a bit high though (38 if I read between the line correctly!?)
> 
> Though that said, Hermes is something of a quandary (a mere40th-level Intermediate Deity) but I imagine that has something to do with Divine Rank, hopefully the more people post information the more we can determine its purpose. *




Makes me wonder if they might've used some sort of conversion system similar to yours when they were working on the dieties.  Time will tell I suppose.

I wonder if Divine Rank might be like a class?  The power of the diety (aka number of worshippers) deciding on the Rank or level?  We can gather part of that from Herc., Hermes, and Hera.  Hera has a higher rank from the other two, and is a more powerful more often worshipped diety, where as Hercules has the lowest of the three, and is more of a tale or legend than he is worshipped as a God.  Too bad they don't give us the stats to Zeus or Hades or something, their divine rank would add more insight, like if either of those two had a divine rank of 20, then that would make divine rank sound a lot like a class.  Maybe it's the Divine equivilent to an Epic Level?  No hitpoints BAB, saves or anything awarded, but a list of powers and immunities etc etc to choose from with each level.

K Koie


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## Barendd Nobeard (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: regarding Herc*



			
				CaptainCalico said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oh I think it was very conscious. It was quite refreshing to have the hero actually be a nice, reasonably well-adjusted person after the whole slew of 80's angry, angst-ridden anti-heros. (KS even reffered to Herc as "Minnesota nice" once in an interview. I lived there for a year, and I agree!) Of course they reverted to form with Xena, but that's another thread....
> 
> DDG looks very promising! *




But KS got sick of that "Pollyanna nice Herc" and they tried to give Hercules some "darker stuff" to deal with (e.g., the Golden Hind arc, where he killed his (latest) wife).  Then, he left anyway.

And I think KS is from Minnesota, hence the "Minnesota nice" description.

Beside, the only true Herc was the cartoon one *With the strength of ten / ordinary men *..... who had the annoying little fawn sidekick with the high-pitched voice.  _Gosh, Herc, what are you gonna do now?!_


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## frankthedm (Mar 5, 2002)

*HARM*

So Any Bets on whether or not  *HARM* gets altered for the Epic Rules and _Deities and Demigods_


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## Moon_Goddess (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: GRRRRRRR*



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *
> Hercs divine immunities are:  Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-effecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation.
> 
> 
> Glyfair of Glamis *





So wait, Hera driving him into a rage isn't mind-effecting?   HUH?


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 5, 2002)

Hi there! 



			
				Talath said:
			
		

> *I dunno, it looks fine to me. *




Perhaps I was being a bit facetious. But one of the fundamental purposes of providing stats for deities is to promote interaction which bestowing immunity to _nearly_ everything doesn't exactly do.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: HARM*

Hi frank mate! 



			
				frankthedm said:
			
		

> *So Any Bets on whether or not  HARM gets altered for the Epic Rules and Deities and Demigods *




I would...or do to be more precise!


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## Talath (Mar 5, 2002)

> Hi there!
> 
> Perhaps I was being a bit facetious. But one of the fundamental purposes of providing stats for deities is to promote interaction which bestowing immunity to nearly everything doesn't exactly do.




I see your point and I agree. But bestowing immunity to nearly everything is a good way to keep PCs from "accidentily" destroying a pantheon of gods.

"Oops, I used a _push_ spell to send Thor spiraling off a wall, and now I have his famed hammer!"

Btw, I look eagerly to your system


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 5, 2002)

Hey kkoie mate! 



			
				kkoie said:
			
		

> *Makes me wonder if they might've used some sort of conversion system similar to yours when they were working on the dieties.  Time will tell I suppose.*




Well Hercules is comparative, though Hermes isn't (pending an understanding of exactly what Divine Rank is).



			
				kkoie said:
			
		

> *I wonder if Divine Rank might be like a class?*




Its possible, it could also be a modifier of some nature?



			
				kkoie said:
			
		

> *The power of the diety (aka number of worshippers) deciding on the Rank or level?  We can gather part of that from Herc., Hermes, and Hera.*




Thats not conclusive, deities have always been rank based. The difference here is that Hercules and Hermes are roughly comparative (?) but for Divine Rank. Yet Hercules is a Demigod and Hermes is an Intermediate Deity.



			
				kkoie said:
			
		

> *Hera has a higher rank from the other two, and is a more powerful more often worshipped diety, *




Hera has been previously detemined as a Greater Goddess - which would seem to be conducive to her higher Divine Rank.



			
				kkoie said:
			
		

> *where as Hercules has the lowest of the three, and is more of a tale or legend than he is worshipped as a God.*




Compares to the perception of Demigod status.

Is Heras Divine Rank 20?

If so you could assume:

Demigod: Divine Rank 5
Lesser Deity: Divine Rank 10
Intermediate Deity: Divine Rank 15
Greater Deity: Divine Rank 20



			
				kkoie said:
			
		

> *Too bad they don't give us the stats to Zeus or Hades or something, their divine rank would add more insight, like if either of those two had a divine rank of 20, then that would make divine rank sound a lot like a class. *




I am sure we will find out in due course.



			
				kkoie said:
			
		

> *Maybe it's the Divine equivilent to an Epic Level?  No hitpoints BAB, saves or anything awarded, but a list of powers and immunities etc etc to choose from with each level. *




More akin to a Divine Template then...but who would ever come up with an idea like that! 

Is Hera also comprised of only 40 levels or is that information extreneous to the magazine preview I wonder?


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 5, 2002)

Hello again Talath! 



			
				Talath said:
			
		

> *I see your point and I agree.*








			
				Talath said:
			
		

> *But bestowing immunity to nearly everything is a good way to keep PCs from "accidentily" destroying a pantheon of gods.
> 
> "Oops, I used a push spell to send Thor spiraling off a wall, and now I have his famed hammer!"*




I don't mind gods being powerful or having immunities when there is a reason for it.

Obviously Zeus should be immune to electrical attacks, Surtur fire attacks etc. But you have to draw the line somewhere and rather sooner than later.

But if you look at the list of Hercules immunities there is no reason for most of them...in fact they actually made him immune to poison with is hilarious to anyone familiar with the demise of Hercules.

With these sort of lists they would have been better listing only vulnerabilities rather than invulnerabilities.

'...immune to everything except...etc.' 



			
				Talath said:
			
		

> *Btw, I look eagerly to your system  *




Thanks! I appreciate the interest.


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## Staffan (Mar 6, 2002)

Remember that in the legends, Hercules wasn't adopted into the pantheon until *after* he died. So making him immune to poison and mind-affecting stuff despite the legends makes perfect sense - after all, he got those abilities when the legends ended.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 6, 2002)

Hi Staffan! 



			
				Staffan said:
			
		

> *Remember that in the legends, Hercules wasn't adopted into the pantheon until *after* he died. So making him immune to poison and mind-affecting stuff despite the legends makes perfect sense - after all, he got those abilities when the legends ended. *




You can assume he got those abilities as part of the whole immortality package, sure, but to what end!? Why should Hercules be immune to acid or poison or energy drain or any of the other myriad defenses he now seems to sport.

I'm not necessarily against it; I'd just like to understand the reasoning behind it, which I would hope was more than...'well hes a god'.

No doubt they sorted out Achilles niggling injury too...assuming he made the jump to Hero-deity?


----------



## mmadsen (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: regarding Herc*



> It was quite refreshing to have the hero actually be a nice, reasonably well-adjusted person after the whole slew of 80's angry, angst-ridden anti-heros. (KS even reffered to Herc as "Minnesota nice" once in an interview. I lived there for a year, and I agree!)




I have no problem with a "goody two shoes" hero, but why choose a character known for his murderous rage as the basis for your goody-goody hero?  Why not choose Jason (of the Argonauts), or Perseus, or Theseus?  Or even Odysseus?


----------



## Triple H (Mar 6, 2002)

From what I have been able to surmise they used the epic level rules to get the base class. Then they use the "divine template". Basically according to divine rank. Like UK posted elsewhere on this thread. So a different template of every god rank? Perhaps. A class? Could be as well but I doubt it from the above stats given.

Also,I cant wait to see the requirments for becoming a god.

Proceeds to lift a mountain to imprees a god into elevating him


----------



## mmadsen (Mar 6, 2002)

Am I the only one who thinks Hercules could be a fairly normal Barbarian 20 with high stats, a club, a bow, and a magic lion skin?  Where are all these wacky powers coming from?


----------



## Triple H (Mar 6, 2002)

Hmm, well it might be the class/template thing. Or maybe he turned 18 and his dad thought he deserved some cool stuff. Too bad Herc wanted a car. he got lion skin. What a jip


----------



## Triple H (Mar 6, 2002)

Heres a thought: We know next to nothing about the book. Except two characters and the little hints that they have given us. Why dont we brainstorm in this thread or over AIM things we know. maybe then we can get the answers we want


----------



## Darkness (Mar 6, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Am I the only one who thinks Hercules could be a fairly normal Barbarian 20 with high stats, a club, a bow, and a magic lion skin?  Where are all these wacky powers coming from? *



From becoming a god? Before he became one, he probably was just what you suggested...


----------



## Sulimo (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: As an aside...*



			
				Rubeus Hagrid said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A bit off-topic, but there's a reason for that. After the Network screwed over Gerard Christopher to move from being Superboy to Superman, Sorbo had locked in the part as Kal-El on Lois & Clark. That went away the moment Dean Cain and Terry Hatcher evoked the Christopher Reeve/Margot Kidder chemistry and ramped it up to Moonlighting levels (Thus making a fantastic Moolighting 2, but a hideously awful Superman).
> 
> So really, Hercules (and Dylan Hunt, thank Goddess that Andromeda is back to normal.. It was getting  grim, dark, dreary, realistic, and all the other things I hate and half the EN Members worship) is Kevin Sorbo playing Superman in another venue.  *




Hmm...I actually liked Sorbo as Hercules, even with the mangling of Myths. Definitely much preferable to Xena and her mangling of history. I couldnt stomach the Roman episodes at all, and gave up on the series once it reached India.

As for Lois & Clark, I quite liked it. At least the first season. It did go seriously downhill once Lois discovered Clark's secret.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: regarding Herc*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I have no problem with a "goody two shoes" hero, but why choose a character known for his murderous rage as the basis for your goody-goody hero?  Why not choose Jason (of the Argonauts), or Perseus, or Theseus?  Or even Odysseus? *




Because Herc was the strongest. There is always a mystique to the big, strong guys - that's why in boxing the heavyweights get more attention than, say, welterweights, even though the lower weight classes usually have better fights.

This is an example of what I mentioned earlier - some characters touch upon something so universal that they survive down through the ages, and simply get updated by society itself as time marches along. Sorbo's Herc was certainly not the first depiction of the character as a straight-arrow do-gooder, especially in the last half-century. Herc has appeared in numerous cartoons (like the one mentioned earlier, which I remember from childhood), books, comics, and movies as the good guy, with nary a trace of rage about him. To a lesser extent, this is also true of Thor.


----------



## mmadsen (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: regarding Herc*



> Because Herc was the strongest.




I almost brought this up in my earlier post, but decided against it:

If you're going to use a character known for two things: (a) terrible mood swings, and (b) great physical strength, how do you end up with a show about a goody-two-shoes hero who looks like a volleyball player?

So many Greek heroes could've fit that "generic good guy with athletic physique" role they created, but they decided on Hercules.  I'm assuming it's simply because he's the best known Greek hero -- despite the fact that no one seems to really know anything about him.


----------



## mmadsen (Mar 6, 2002)

> From becoming a god? Before he became one, he probably was just what you suggested...




What makes you think a Greek god should have any of the immunities (or other powers) mentioned?  Isn't it enough to have over 100 hit points and the ability to heal back from any injury (now that he's immortal)?


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: regarding Herc*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm assuming it's simply because he's the best known Greek hero -- despite the fact that no one seems to really know anything about him. *




No, everyone really does know something about him - he's the strongest. For the vast majority of people who have heard of him, that's all that's important.

What I've been trying to convey is that you're talking about well over two thousand years of character development. Herc has survived in Western society's lexicon for some reason which is much larger than anything we've really touched upon. I don't know what it is about him that has made it necessary for society to re-invent him through the millennia, but the simple fact is that it happened. 

Why would the writers of Sorbo's show go to Greek mythology and _not_ use the character with the best name recognition value? They wanted folk to get hooked into the show via the name - "hey, Hercules - he's the strong guy, right? Let's watch that." Theseus, Perseus, and Jason just don't have the same instant recognition (Jason, maybe, but due to the Harryhausen films, and the creators of Sorbo's show probably didn't want to have to wrestle with the stuff people would expect of a TV show about Jason, when most of what is known of Jason is from the old sword 'n' sandal films). Those who would recognize those names would be a rather small audience. If you don't use Hercules, you might as well create a new character, and then the name recognition that would have drawn viewers would be gone. Again, it's easier, and possibly more sociologically fascinating, to simply go with the flow and give society what it needs or creates for itself.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Mar 6, 2002)

And let's remember, the TV producers were in it to make money, not play with societal perceptions of a mythological character. There isn't anything wrong with that, and pretty much follows the same path storytellers throughout the ages have followed; pick a character or story that the audience knows, and go with that. A large portion of the burden of the storyteller is then relieved. The same thing has happened to King Arthur - the Arthur of Malory or Geoffrey of Monmouth or the Mabinogion or the Boorman film or Mark Twain or the Pendragon RPG all bear little, if any resemblance to each other, and almost none to the original Arthur. Yet he survives in our consciousness.


----------



## Talath (Mar 6, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'm not necessarily against it; I'd just like to understand the reasoning behind it, which I would hope was more than...'well hes a god'.




Well, there goes my next excuse


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GRRRRRRR*



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> So wait, Hera driving him into a rage isn't mind-effecting?   HUH? *




Well, the mythological event happened before he ascended to deityhood, so he wouldn't have gained that immunity yet.

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 6, 2002)

Triple H said:
			
		

> *Heres a thought: We know next to nothing about the book. Except two characters and the little hints that they have given us. Why dont we brainstorm in this thread or over AIM things we know. maybe then we can get the answers we want *




I agree  

So, here is the little we have on Hera (that I haven't mentioned before).

Senses:  a note at the end of this rather area states "She can block the sensing power of deities of her rank or lower at up to two remote locations at once for 16 hours."

Portfolio sense:  I mentioned hers before, but she is aware of these events (marriages and  cheating husbands) sixteen weeks before they occur and retains the sensation for sixteen weeks after they happen.

Automatic Actions:  She can use any Cha or Int related skill as a free action if the DC is 30 or lower.

Create Magic Items:  She can create any magic item whose use involves scrying or stealth.

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 6, 2002)

Some notes on Hermes (for comparison with Herc):

Divine Rank:  15
Hit Dice:  20d8+140 (outsider) plus 20d6+140 (Rog) plus 20d4+140 (Wiz) (780 hp)
Initiative:  +24, *always first*  (+20 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative, Supreme Initiative)
Speed:  120 ft., Fly 360 ft. perfect
AC 82
Attacks:  Huge +5 speed holy quater staff +64/+64/+59/+54/+49 (other attack types are given)
Special qualities:  includes DR 50/+4, familiar (birds) (probably part of his wizard class), SR 47, divine aura (1,500 ft. DC 35)
Stats:  Dex of 50
Divine Immunities:  Ability damage/drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, imprisonment, banishment

He has a unique "salient ability" Gust of Wind:  Basically when he moves he can create a blast of light, moderate, strong or severe wind that spreads along his path.  

Possessions:  Caduceus (can control animals and beast as if using the Control Creatures salient divine ability - only usuable by creatures with a Divine Rank of 0 or higher).

His Automatic Actions basically list a group of skills in his range (profession (guide or scribe), Open Lock, Disable Device, a bunch of Knowledges) of DC 25 or lower.

His avatar is only has a divine rank of 7.


Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## S'mon (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: regarding Herc*



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> This is an example of what I mentioned earlier - some characters touch upon something so universal that they survive down through the ages, and simply get updated by society itself as time marches along. Sorbo's Herc was certainly not the first depiction of the character as a straight-arrow do-gooder, especially in the last half-century. Herc has appeared in numerous cartoons (like the one mentioned earlier, which I remember from childhood), books, comics, and movies as the good guy, with nary a trace of rage about him. To a lesser extent, this is also true of Thor. *




The mythological Thor did at least have a reputation as a friend and helper of the common people, as well as being a sadistic murder of giants. 
Hercules doesn't seem to have had any interest in helping anyone.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 6, 2002)

Hey Triple H mate! 



			
				Triple H said:
			
		

> *From what I have been able to surmise they used the epic level rules to get the base class. Then they use the "divine template". Basically according to divine rank. Like UK posted elsewhere on this thread. So a different template of every god rank? Perhaps. A class? Could be as well but I doubt it from the above stats given.*




I don't think it will be quite that simple: its definately in some capacity a character modifier/template.

There may well be stock increases for every measure of power...

Hero-deity: Divine Rank 0
Demigod: Divine Rank 5
Lesser God: Divine Rank 10
etc.

...but there must also be some variable factors within these 'Templates' to accomodate inbetween figures (eg. Glyfair mentioned that Hermes Avatar is considered Divine Rank 7).

From this you could also surmise that Avatars represent half the rank of the deity!? (then again I am operating on partial info here...were there actually any stats for the Avatar or just a Rank?)



			
				Triple H said:
			
		

> *Also,I cant wait to see the requirments for becoming a god.
> 
> Proceeds to lift a mountain to impress a god into elevating him *


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 6, 2002)

Hey Talath! 



			
				Talath said:
			
		

> *Well, there goes my next excuse   *


----------



## Zarrock God of Evil (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: regarding Herc*



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The mythological Thor did at least have a reputation as a friend and helper of the common people, as well as being a sadistic murder of giants.
> Hercules doesn't seem to have had any interest in helping anyone. *




Also remember how Thor was perceived at the time of the Vikings. It is common knowledge here in Scandinavia that he pretty much epitomised many of the most important virtues of the Viking warrior. From the standpoint of the society in those times Thor was definitely "good" - but he was also a God and the lord of primeval forces (weather) - which meant that he didn't have to be necessarily benign nor really approachable by mortals. 

-Zarrock


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 6, 2002)

Hi Glyfair! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *I agree *




Is there no details for Hestia? I am assuming we get the end of Heras entry, Hercules, Hermes, then the beginning of Hestias entry...?

Is she a Lesser Goddess, Divine Rank 10?



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *So, here is the little we have on Hera (that I haven't mentioned before).
> 
> Senses:  a note at the end of this rather area states "She can block the sensing power of deities of her rank or lower at up to two remote locations at once for 16 hours."
> 
> ...




I think Automatic Actions are related to Divine Rank, the DC always seems to be Divine Rank + 10.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 6, 2002)

I think I may have worked another thing out?

Is Hercules Charisma 24 (or 25) and Hermes Charisma 34 (or 35)? If so the DC for Divine Aura is seemingly based on Divine Rank + Cha Bonus.

So we know Divine Rank affects:

- Automatic Actions (DC 10 + Divine Rank)
- Innate Spell Levels (Level 10 + Divine Rank)
- Domain Powers (Uses per day = Divine Rank)

and possibly

- Divine Aura (DC = Divine Rank + 10 + Cha bonus)


----------



## Gez (Mar 6, 2002)

But...

_Automatic Actions: She can use any Cha or Int related skill as a free action if the DC is 30 or lower. _
_Is she a Lesser Goddess, Divine Rank 10? _
_I think Automatic Actions are related to Divine Rank, the DC always seems to be Divine Rank + 10._

You probably implied a 20 somewhere instead of a 10.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 6, 2002)

Hi Glyfair! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Some notes on Hermes (for comparison with Herc):*




Thanks again! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Divine Rank:  15
> Hit Dice:  20d8+140 (outsider) plus 20d6+140 (Rog) plus 20d4+140 (Wiz) (780 hp)*




Certainly makes more sense.

We don't have Hera's details do we?

They don't seem to have done much with Epic Levels so far in D&Dg...? 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Initiative:  +24, always first  (+20 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative, Supreme Initiative)*




Interesting.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *AC 82*




How do they outlne that!?

10 (Base) + 20 (Dex) + ?



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Attacks:  Huge +5 speed holy quater staff +64/+64/+59/+54/+49 (other attack types are given)*




Damage about 1d6+30(?)

Also shouldn't that be 6 attacks I wonder: 4 + 1 (off-hand quarterstaff) + 1 (speed)



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *His avatar is only has a divine rank of 7.
> *




Which itself could be assumed to represent half (rounded down) his Divine Rank.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 6, 2002)

Hi Gez mate! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *But...
> 
> Automatic Actions: She can use any Cha or Int related skill as a free action if the DC is 30 or lower.
> Is she a Lesser Goddess, Divine Rank 10?
> ...




Hera is actually a Greater Goddess, which I'm betting means Divine Rank 20.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 6, 2002)

Hermes' AC is broken down as (-1 size, +20 Dex, +15 divine, +28 natural, +10 deflection).  For reference, Herc's is (+7 Dex, +5 divine, +5 natural, +10 Nemian lion skin, +7 deflection).

Remember, we are only given an actual 4 pages from D&D.  You get the tail end of Hera's and the beginning of Hestias.  You catch the end of Hera's spell-like abilites, her "Other Divine Powers" column, and her avatar (Divine rank 8, incidentally).

Hestia's is very brief also.  You get no stats.  You get what I'll call her worship stat block, her history/description, and her Dogma entry.

BTW, what I'm calling the worship stat block is like this:

Hestia
Lesser Deity
Symbol:  Hearth
Home Plane:  Olympus
Alignment:  Neutral Good
Portfolio:  Home, hearth, family
Worshipers:  Commoners
Cleric Alignments:  CG, LG, NG
Domains:  Community, Good, Protection
Favored Weapon:  Dagger

So, basically, your standard god statblock that we've seen befor.

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 6, 2002)

Hi Glyfair mate! 

Thanks again so much! I am sure I am not the only one who appreciates it! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Hermes' AC is broken down as (-1 size, +20 Dex, +15 divine, +28 natural, +10 deflection).
> 
> For reference, Herc's is (+7 Dex, +5 divine, +5 natural, +10 Nemian lion skin, +7 deflection).*




It seems we have found another mechanic affected by Divine Rank.

You could probably assume Divine Weapon Focus and Divine Weapon Specialisation are also Rank based.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Remember, we are only given an actual 4 pages from D&D.  You get the tail end of Hera's and the beginning of Hestias.*




So they attribute three columns to every deity (I do that myself  ).



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *You catch the end of Hera's spell-like abilites, her "Other Divine Powers" column, and her avatar (Divine rank 8, incidentally).*




Now thats interesting. I would have assumed they were going to have Avatars at half Divine Rank...but apparently not.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Hestia's is very brief also.  You get no stats.  You get what I'll call her worship stat block, her history/description, and her Dogma entry.
> 
> BTW, what I'm calling the worship stat block is like this:
> 
> ...




Thats pretty much how I have things as well...

...paying _homage_ to the _de facto_ standard presented within the FRCS.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 6, 2002)

What looks interesting also is the "Salient Divine Abilities"

Hermes'

Alter Form, Alter Reality, Alter Size, Arcane Mastery, Avatar, Divine Blast, Divine Celerity, Divine Shield, Divine Dodge, Divine Glibness, Divine Rogue, Divine Sneak Attack, Free Move, Gust of Wind* <see my previous post>, Supreme Initiative, Extra Domain (Good), Extra Domain (Luck), Spontaneous Wizard Spells.

Also regarding saves:

"As an intermediate deity, Hermes automatically recieves a die result of 20 on any check.  He treats a 1 on a a saving throw or attack roll normally and not as an automatic failure.  He is immortal."

and

"As a demigod, Hercules treats a 1 on an attack roll or saving throw normally and not as an automatic failure.  He is immortal."

and 

"As a greater deity, Hera automatically receives the best possible reult on any die roll she makes (including attack rolls, damage, checks and saves).  She is immortal."

TTFN,
Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 6, 2002)

Hi Glyfair mate! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *What looks interesting also is the "Salient Divine Abilities"
> 
> Hermes'
> 
> Alter Form, Alter Reality, Alter Size, Arcane Mastery, Avatar, Divine Blast, Divine Celerity, Divine Shield, Divine Dodge, Divine Glibness, Divine Rogue, Divine Sneak Attack, Free Move, Gust of Wind* <see my previous post>, Supreme Initiative, Extra Domain (Good), Extra Domain (Luck), Spontaneous Wizard Spells.*




Now some of these are very interesting, you can pretty much assume 'Divine' anything uses the Divine Rank in some fashion.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Also regarding saves:
> 
> "As an intermediate deity, Hermes automatically recieves a die result of 20 on any check.  He treats a 1 on a a saving throw or attack roll normally and not as an automatic failure.  He is immortal."
> 
> ...




I treat saves like this too, though I save things like 'automatic best die roll' for deities with the Luck portfolio etc.

Thanks again mate - your spoiling us!*

*I feel like I am at the Ambassadors Reception! 

If your in a typing mood how about Hercules Feats!


----------



## LordMelkor{Talos} (Mar 6, 2002)

Glyfair, what are avatar stats for Hermes?


----------



## Darkness (Mar 6, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> What makes you think a Greek god should have any of the immunities (or other powers) mentioned?  Isn't it enough to have over 100 hit points and the ability to heal back from any injury (now that he's immortal)? *



No, it isn't enough in D&D. He's an Outsider now - and more powerful than even a Solar. And a Solar has a lot of resistances and immunities as well. Thus, it makes sense for a god to have even more of that.


----------



## Paladin (Mar 6, 2002)

Anyone else realize that every single time a Greater God ever attacks, they get a critical hit? Wow. I don't know if Epic Level characters can get to that level of power, but that's pretty impressive to me! No wonder they're Greater....


----------



## Ristamar (Mar 6, 2002)

Paladin said:
			
		

> *Anyone else realize that every single time a Greater God ever attacks, they get a critical hit? Wow. I don't know if Epic Level characters can get to that level of power, but that's pretty impressive to me! No wonder they're Greater.... *




Toss (Divine?) Power Attack and (Divine?) Improved Critical into that equation and then you'll see some really messy results.

Ouch.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Mar 6, 2002)

This is fun! Yay!

 I'm quite looking forward to this book now. Greek-era campaign, here I come!


----------



## Paladin (Mar 6, 2002)

Ristamar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Toss Power Attack (Divine Power Attack?) into that equation and then you'll see some really messy results.
> 
> Ouch. *





No doubt. Heavy Fortification armor just became a necessity for anyone thinking of (stupidly) going after a Greater God. If the God carries a Vorpal weapon, they could just hew down attackers like a weed-whacker. Heavy Fortification would be your only defense.


----------



## mmadsen (Mar 6, 2002)

> No, it isn't enough in D&D. He's an Outsider now - and more powerful than even a Solar. And a Solar has a lot of resistances and immunities as well. Thus, it makes sense for a god to have even more of that.




Hercules and the D&D Solar come from completely different mythoi though.  One's Greek/Roman, and the other's a quasi-Christian angel modified for D&D.  They're apples and oranges.

We know from the myths that Greek immortals can be injured just fine.  Prometheus, for instance, has his liver torn out by a bird on a daily basis.  Does this sound like DR to you?  Or is it a +5 buzzard?


----------



## Ristamar (Mar 6, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hercules and the D&D Solar come from completely different mythoi though.  One's Greek/Roman, and the other's a quasi-Christian angel modified for D&D.  They're apples and oranges.
> 
> We know from the myths that Greek immortals can be injured just fine.  Prometheus, for instance, has his liver torn out by a bird on a daily basis.  Does this sound like DR to you?  Or is it a +5 buzzard? *




Whether you're comparing Hercules to a Solar or some other ultra-buff outsider is irrelevant.  I'm sure you can easily find a more generic outsider with comparable immunities.  In fact, high level PC's will have comparable immunities when you factor in magic items and spells.

As for the buzzard comment, Zeus sent it, so perhaps it was some sort of Divine eagle.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 7, 2002)

Well, it's mostly difference they list for avatars.   Divine Rank 7, AC 66 Attack starts at +56, DR 42/+4 SR 39, dvinie aura (700 ft, DC 27), all skills reduced by 8
Salient Divine Abilities:  Arcane Spell Mastery, Automatic Metamagic (quicken wizard spells), Divine Dodge, Divine Snake Attack, Extra Doman (good & luck), Gust of WInd, Spontaneous Wizard Spells, Supreme Initiative. 

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## Squire James (Mar 7, 2002)

Maybe Prometheus has DR 50/+5, but that darned Buzzard of Zeus is hitting him for 51 points of damage over and over again.  It sounds just like the cruel sort of thing an angry Greek god might do!


----------



## CRGreathouse (Mar 7, 2002)

Squire James said:
			
		

> *Maybe Prometheus has DR 50/+5, but that darned Buzzard of Zeus is hitting him for 51 points of damage over and over again.  It sounds just like the cruel sort of thing an angry Greek god might do! *




I think Zeus just slaps a _greater magic fang_ on it every other day (given his caster level ).


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 7, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *I think I may have worked another thing out?
> 
> Is Hercules Charisma 24 (or 25) and Hermes Charisma 34 (or 35)? If so the DC for Divine Aura is seemingly based on Divine Rank + Cha Bonus.
> 
> ...




Close.  You have Herc's, not Hermes.

Hermes:  Str 24, Dex 50, Con 24, Int 31, Wis 26 ,Cha 30
Hercules:  S 55, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 24

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 7, 2002)

BTW, regarding a request for Herc's feats:  Just take all the main fighter feats from the Core Rules & Sword & Fist, and add a couple.  As a taste;  he has Blindsight 5-ft. Radius, Divine Might, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative/Trip/Unarmed Strike/Grapple/Critical, Spring Attack, Superior Expertise, Track, Alertness, Whirlwind Attack.

Hermes has a few I don't remember:  Fleet of Foot, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Superior Expertise (well, Herc has it, too).

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## mmadsen (Mar 7, 2002)

Has anyone thought of mortal Heracles's stats?  I think he'd make a fairly straightforward high-level Barbarian and/or Fighter (with superhuman strength):

Heracles
Human (Demi-God) Bar20

Str 30 -- or some other arbitrarily high number
Dex 14 -- he never does anything particularly nimble
Con 20 -- he's tough, but he's not immune to poison
Int 10 -- he never does anything clever
Wis 8 -- violent manic-depressive
Cha 14 -- impressive, but not beautiful or charming

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot; Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Sunder; Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple; optionally, I'd consider Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Crit with Great Club and Longbow, especially if we made Herc a Fighter rather than a straight Barbarian.


----------



## Darkness (Mar 7, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hercules and the D&D Solar come from completely different mythoi though.  One's Greek/Roman, and the other's a quasi-Christian angel modified for D&D.  They're apples and oranges.*



Yeah, but both are fruit (or powerful Outsiders, in this case). 

As for 'knowing' anything from Greek myth: Well, maybe we know it - but do the designers know it, too?


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 7, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Has anyone thought of mortal Heracles's stats?  I think he'd make a fairly straightforward high-level Barbarian and/or Fighter (with superhuman strength):
> 
> Heracles
> Human (Demi-God) Bar20
> ...




Well, to properly stat a non-deified Hercules, you'd need to do a lot of decision making about what's actually happening game-wise in his quests.  

For example, in one he holds the world up on his shoulders for Atlas.  Is that because he is that strong, or some supernatural quality of the place, or some combination.  

Also remember, Hercules was the son of Zeus (killing snake while still in his cradle).  Some divine abilites aren't out of line, even besides his great strength.

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## mmadsen (Mar 7, 2002)

> For example, in one he holds the world up on his shoulders for Atlas.  Is that because he is that strong, or some supernatural quality of the place, or some combination.




Well, if we take the Monster Manual as gospel, Atlas, as a Titan, assuming he was a typical Titan, had Str 37.  So, if we bumped up Herc's Strength to 37, he should be able to hold up the sky.  Heck, maybe the sky wasn't all that heavy for Atlas, and a 30 Strength'll do.



> Also remember, Hercules was the son of Zeus (killing snake while still in his cradle).  Some divine abilites aren't out of line, even besides his great strength.




Any divine abilities that he didn't have in the myths should be out of line though.  There's no reason to think the Greek gods should have DR, acid immunity, etc.  And they most definitely should not have superhuman stats across the board.  Hercules is not wise and clever, and he's not even particularly amiable and charismatic.  Like many of the Greek gods, he can be quite capricious, he's easily tricked or goaded into folly, etc.  Further, I don't think he'd even qualify as particularly agile.  Athletic?  Certainly.  Superhumanly quick and nimble?  No, not at all.


----------



## Akunin (Mar 7, 2002)

Paladin said:
			
		

> *Anyone else realize that every single time a Greater God ever attacks, they get a critical hit? Wow. I don't know if Epic Level characters can get to that level of power, but that's pretty impressive to me! No wonder they're Greater.... *




Well, with some of the Epic Feats, they can get crits most of the time, and do "instant death" effects similar to the "death by massive damage" rule.  Epic Regdar is damn scary 

Some of those Divine abilities look similar to some of the Epic Feats, too - some have the same names, as well.  Looks like a party of moderately-high-leveled Epic characters might be able to give a Demigod a run for his money.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Well, it's mostly difference they list for avatars.
> 
> Divine Rank 7, AC 66 Attack starts at +56, DR 42/+4 SR 39, divine aura (700 ft, DC 27), all skills reduced by 8
> 
> Salient Divine Abilities:  Arcane Spell Mastery, Automatic Metamagic (quicken wizard spells), Divine Dodge, Divine Snake Attack, Extra Doman (good & luck), Gust of WInd, Spontaneous Wizard Spells, Supreme Initiative. *




So Avatars effectively use the same statistics, with all 'Divine' bonuses/powers reduced by Divine Rank then!?

So Hermes Avatar would have 780hp etc. While fast and friendly; that does seem a bit stupid on a multitude of levels. 


I think I have spotted a number of new parameters for Divine Rank:

The number of Salient Abilities, presumably one is chosen per Divine Rank!? (Not sure if the 'Extra Domain' power is factored)


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

Hi Glyfair mate! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Close.  You have Herc's, not Hermes.
> 
> Hermes:  Str 24, Dex 50, Con 24, Int 31, Wis 26 ,Cha 30
> Hercules:  Str 55, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 24
> *




Actually the theory is sound, in my haste I just miscalculated Hermes Charisma.

It also appears that Demigod Divine Auras are +10ft./Divine Rank and Intermediate Deities are +100ft./Divine Rank.

Incidently the Ability Scores for Hermes are incredibly low, Hercules is about where I would have him in this regard though (give or take a few).


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

Hi there! 



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Well, if we take the Monster Manual as gospel, Atlas, as a Titan, assuming he was a typical Titan, had Str 37. So, if we bumped up Herc's Strength to 37, he should be able to hold up the sky. Heck, maybe the sky wasn't all that heavy for Atlas, and a 30 Strength'll do.*




Atlas was a Greater Titan however.

To actually lift the Earth (assuming some sort of leverage) you require a D&D rated Strength of 410+ 

Atlas only had to hold up the heavens (Olympus?) though say c.100 million tons requiring Strength 165 to lift.

However, reading between the lines I would say WotC have approached this with a Portfolio ability (I would) - Indomitable Strength perhaps(?); this may allow 'anything' to be lifted.



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Any divine abilities that he didn't have in the myths should be out of line though.  There's no reason to think the Greek gods should have DR, acid immunity, etc.  And they most definitely should not have superhuman stats across the board.  Hercules is not wise and clever, and he's not even particularly amiable and charismatic.  Like many of the Greek gods, he can be quite capricious, he's easily tricked or goaded into folly, etc.  Further, I don't think he'd even qualify as particularly agile.  Athletic?  Certainly.  Superhumanly quick and nimble?  No, not at all. *




I agree and disagree. I don't think high ability scores should be _de rigeur_. But I believe deities should be able to manifest powers as they grow in stature. Also within the D&D multiverse the predominence of wishes would surely play a factor in ability scores.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

Hi Akunin! 



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *Well, with some of the Epic Feats, they can get crits most of the time, and do "instant death" effects similar to the "death by massive damage" rule.  Epic Regdar is damn scary
> 
> Some of those Divine abilities look similar to some of the Epic Feats, too - some have the same names, as well.  Looks like a party of moderately-high-leveled Epic characters might be able to give a Demigod a run for his money. *




I presume you are/were an Epic playtester (don't worry I won't ask you to spill specifics)!?

One thing though, I was chatting with another such playtester a few months ago and he remarked that it was possible to min/max a fighter with a Str of 135 (I think he was using an 80th-level fighter as an example).

So two points:

- Did you find ability scores to be this flexible?

- Do the ability scores for Hermes (and Hercules to an extent) seem fairly weak in comparison?


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 7, 2002)

*perhaps but*

Given that the epic level rules were meant to scale infinitly, it goes without saying that a character who has progressive ability, i.e. levels, is going to eventually surpass a god which is by neccessesity fixed in power ala Dieties and Demigods. 80th level you say? I have no problem with this. Besides, combat ability is not the sole definition of ecl...cr perhaps, but not ecl. I doubt a mortal 80th level character would have the ability to create 250,000 gp is items at will even per the epic rules. The Epic fighter might best if in that one respect, but is not nearly as flexible. A Qualititave difference, in this respect gods will always be superior.

And the Avatar rules sound sound. They are simply the diety with all its 'mortal' class abilities, but with greatly reduced divine. How does that sound silly as it jives with the quantifiable, planer scale of divine power you have been advocating.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

*Re: perhaps but*

Hi jasamcarl! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Given that the epic level rules were meant to scale infinitely, it goes without saying that a character who has progressive ability, i.e. levels, is going to eventually surpass a god which is by neccessesity fixed in power ala Dieties and Demigods.*




I totally agree.

My query was regarding the dichotomy of mortal (epic) and immortal characters. If an 80th-level character can have a Strength of 135*, then surely 40th-level Hercules and (effectively) 60th-level Hermes are somewhat anaemic by comparison!?

*Assuming the poster wasn't lying!?



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *80th level you say? I have no problem with this.*




I certainly don't! My character is over 80th-level! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Besides, combat ability is not the sole definition of ecl...cr perhaps, but not ecl.*




True. Though Epic Level and Divine Rank must be quantifiable; and therefore comparative at some point within Challenge Ratings.

In fact I have made that exact point on Andy Collins message boards (still awaiting reply).



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *I doubt a mortal 80th level character would have the ability to create 250,000 gp is items at will even per the epic rules.*




I agree. Though I can see that particular power being exploited by PCs if they ever reached such lofty heights. Items at will for no energy expenditure is not something I would advocate.

As such it would be fair to assume most of Deities & Demigods is NPC-centric. Whereas my own is PC-centric.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *The Epic fighter might best if in that one respect, but is not nearly as flexible. A Qualititave difference, in this respect gods will always be superior.*




Obviously 'pound for pound' deities will always be tougher.

But if 40 total levels plus Divine Rank +5 is roughly equal to 50 total levels (?) then a 51st-level character will be (effectively) more powerful than that deity.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *And the Avatar rules sound sound. They are simply the diety with all its 'mortal' class abilities, but with greatly reduced divine. How does that sound silly as it jives with the quantifiable, planer scale of divine power you have been advocating. *




True, the measurement of Divine Power is fundamentally similar to what I advocate. However, they seem to have adopted their Avatar rules for the sake of brevity rather than mechanics or philosophy. This is something I don't concur with.

Obviously we don't yet understand the full scope of Divine Rank, but to assume Divine Rank is (roughly) equivalent to 2 Epic Levels for the purposes of this example - then Hermes is effectively 90th-level and his Avatar is effectively 74th-level.

So Hermes has effectively created a 74th-level facsimilie of himself to operate on the mortal plane at virtually no cost to himself (from what I can tell you can adopt one Salient Divine Ability every Divine Rank, one of the options is 'Avatar').

So we can see Hermes can create Avatars easily more powerful than Hercules himself (and I would bet Hestia too if we could see her stats). 

Hermes is (potentially*) CR 41
Hermes Avatar (potentially*) CR 38
Hercules is (potentially*) CR 32

Assuming every Divine Rank (roughly) equivalent to +2 Levels.

If Hermes created 4 Avatars they would be more powerful than he. Since creating 4 Avatars seemingly wouldn't be that difficult it must be noted that Hermes can therefore create something more powerful than himself (at relatively no cost) which is fundamentally impossible and therefore effectively broken!


----------



## Gez (Mar 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by Glyfair (at several places  ):
> So, here is the little we have on Hera (that I haven't mentioned before).
> 
> Senses: a note at the end of this rather area states "She can block the sensing power of deities of her rank or lower at up to two remote locations at once for *16* hours."
> ...






> Originally posted by UK:
> Now thats interesting. I would have assumed they were going to have Avatars at half Divine Rank...but apparently not.




Apparently they do. But her divine rank seems to be 16, not 20.


----------



## Gez (Mar 7, 2002)

Well, this topic is not dead, is it ? It is slipping on the second page !


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

Hi Gez mate! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *Apparently they do. But her divine rank seems to be 16, not 20. *




So what your saying is Krusty scoops another one!


----------



## Ristamar (Mar 7, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *So what your saying is Krusty scoops another one!  *




In Krust we trust...


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 7, 2002)

*UK*

Considering we don't yet have a clear idea of what an 'Avatar' ability would entail, especially its limitations, i would not be quick to comment on how much of an advantage Hermes has over Hercules. Now as to the rules themselves, brevity is always appreciated....i will say this, i find the notion that rules must convey through their exact mechanical execution inherent flavor absurd and i believe the level of abstraction and simplicity inherent in d20 to be one of its greater assets as it trusts the dm and players to create a 'Realist' vision of what their die roles represent.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

Hi Ristamar mate! 



			
				Ristamar said:
			
		

> *In Krust we trust... *




Appreciate the love!


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 7, 2002)

*And another thing....*

And might i add that some of your assumptions are off the wall....one divine rank equates with 2 epic levels....it is seemingly easy to create 4 avatars....do you have a sources to verify any of this? I don't think you fundementally understood what i was getting at through 'Qualitative' difference..gods and mortals are probably not meant to be substituted, but are instead complementary..there are things one can do which the other can't and vice versa. In this regard equating epic and divine rank/levels seem out of place. Mixed god/mortal parties are probably not the intent of the rules. 

This does not preclude God-level play, but instead deals with two planes of play, one divine, one mortal. Balance between the two in shared roles is meaningless.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Mar 7, 2002)

*Re: And another thing....*



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *This does not preclude God-level play, but instead deals with two planes of play, one divine, one mortal. Balance between the two in shared roles is meaningless. *




UK would certainly  disagree.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Mar 7, 2002)

Perhaps jasamcarl is unfamiliar with Krusty's own very extensive deity system? He's worked on it for quite a while, and so might have some insight into the matter at hand.  I realize, of course, that something not blessed directly by WotC and that is a fan-created work of love may be "unworthy" of serious attention (not a viewpoint I agree with, let me emphasize).


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

*Re: UK*

Hi jasamcarl! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Considering we don't yet have a clear idea of what an 'Avatar' ability would entail, especially its limitations, *




Its seems pretty obvious. 'Avatar' is one of the Salient Abilities that in effect creates an Avatar. The Avatar in question is a duplicate of the god with its Divine Rank (and therefore comensurate abilities) halved. Deities gain one Salient Divine Ability per Divine Rank it would seem.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *i would not be quick to comment on how much of an advantage Hermes has over Hercules.  *




I think we can have a fair idea though. Obviously Hermes wouldn't want to go toe to toe with the bearded slugger (but then hes a Rogue/Wizard) but if Levels and Divine Rank mean anything he is clearly the more powerful; as it should be: Intermediate God to Demigod.

My point is that even Hermes Avatar is more powerful than Hercules. It also seems apparent that creating these Avatars (one Salient Ability Slot) isn't such a big deal.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Now as to the rules themselves, brevity is always appreciated.... *




I agree, where applicable.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *i will say this, i find the notion that rules must convey through their exact mechanical execution inherent flavor absurd and i believe the level of abstraction and simplicity inherent in d20 to be one of its greater assets as it trusts the dm and players to create a 'Realist' vision of what their die roles represent. *




I seem to have lost the point you were trying to make somewhere in the above sentence...my apologies.

I am implying that (in my opinion) the treatment of Avatars is incorrect both mechanically and philosophically.

Mechanically Hermes seems capable of creating something more powerful than himself in and of his own energy/power, which defies fundamental laws of physics - which, before you counter with "its a fantasy game that doesn't have to abide by physics" ask yourself 'if Hermes can create something more powerful than himself, why then doesn't he just make himself more powerful!?'

Philosophically I always thought Avatars were meant to bridge the gap between mortals and immortals. It therefore seems self-defeating to set their power so close to the deities themselves. (In this instance of mentioning mortals I am refering to those of non-epic levels).


----------



## Aaron L (Mar 7, 2002)

Mixed god and mortal parties?  The Avengers anyone?  Hercules, Thor, and...Captain America?!  Yeah, it could work, I would say.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

Hello again! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *And might i add that some of your assumptions are off the wall....*




True, but they are based on all the facts we currently have in our possession.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *one divine rank equates with 2 epic levels....*




I already mentioned I was using this solely as a basis for an example.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *it is seemingly easy to create 4 avatars....*




Not an unreasonable assumption given the facts at our disposal.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *do you have a sources to verify any of this? *




Everything up to this point is an educated guess based on the current information.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *I don't think you fundementally understood what i was getting at through 'Qualitative' difference*




I believe I did. 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *..gods and mortals are probably not meant to be substituted, but are instead complementary..there are things one can do which the other can't and vice versa.*




If gods were not meant to be substituted with mortals they wouldn't be based on the same fundamentals (Levels/Hit Dice).

I agree gods can do things that likely mortals can't regardless of level though.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *In this regard equating epic and divine rank/levels seem out of place.*




I think you are forgetting that 'power is relative'.

If you quantify a deity; it will have a Challenge Rating! Theres no point having rules if they go ephemeral all of a sudden when we apply divine rank.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Mixed god/mortal parties are probably not the intent of the rules.*




In your previous post you just expounded on one of the greatest merits of the d20 system being its 'level of abstraction'. 

Are you now saying mortals and gods shouldn't interact at any level!?



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *This does not preclude God-level play, but instead deals with two planes of play, one divine, one mortal. Balance between the two in shared roles is meaningless. *




"someone hold my coat for me!" 

On the contrary; balance between the two is EVERYTHING!

Without the dichotomy between mortal and immortal ANY meaning of what deities represent is lost!


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 7, 2002)

*no, no, UK*

Yes, Avatar is listed as a salient ability, but we don't yet know what the ability is. Yes, obviously the creation of an avatar is involved, but any restrictions in terms of time, number of Avatars, actions that can be taken concurently, etc are not known. You said it yourself, wotc seems to be going the gods as npc route (i.e. as an alternative to dm fudging); my point here is that is not 'broken' unless wotc clearly intended for these gods to be played. And as to Hermes making something more powerful than himself...well, see above; we don't know what the ABILITY 'Avatar' is as of yet. Do we know what the Avatar is in and of itself. Yes.

I would suggest you wait until the book actually makes an appearance, until then your musings aren't striking me a relevant.


----------



## Akunin (Mar 7, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *One thing though, I was chatting with another such playtester a few months ago and he remarked that it was possible to min/max a fighter with a Str of 135 (I think he was using an 80th-level fighter as an example).*




I can think of one way, yeah.  Got 49M gold pieces handy?  

Yes, it can be done by throwing money into item creation, but a more realistic value for a level 80 fighter (not including items) is a little less than half that.  And that's with your 5 points from wishes, attribute points gained through levels, and devoting as much of your Epic benefits to enhancing strength as possible.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *So two points:
> - Did you find ability scores to be this flexible?
> - Do the ability scores for Hermes (and Hercules to an extent) seem fairly weak in comparison? *




Ability scores for Epic characters are more flexible, yes (there are more ways to improve attributes).  Bear in mind that in order to get a strength as high as I described requires focusing your character in one direction to the point that he'll be lacking in the others.  STR of 60+ is nice, but the rest of your stats will still be well within mortal range, and you're sacrificing much of the flexibility that comes with Epic level benefits...

Hercules' stats look about right, but Hermes should be a bit higher, I think.



> _originally posted by jasamcarl_
> *I doubt a mortal 80th level character would have the ability to create 250,000 gp is items at will even per the epic rules.*




250k?  Wow.  That's super cheap!    Actually, that's at the low price end for Epic items.  

[EDIT:  Misread the "at will" bit - no, they use Item Creation Rules, with a few additions]

The 49 million gp item referance, above is an item that could (if you had the money and the time, not to mention the xp) be made at a much level lower than 80.  Much lower.


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 7, 2002)

*ok......*

No, i meant that a pc could not be a God in a normal adventuring party and maintain balance. Nowhere did i say that they could not battle each other...its again allows dms to create balanced encounters, nothing more. And by abstraction i was referring to the action itself, not the result.  As of these rules, the avatar is what one would expect, a less powerful version of the current diety. To add a large number of akward new rules to simulate this would be overkill.


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 7, 2002)

*Yes, but..*

Can the epic level character create such at will? That represents an incredable amount of flexibility.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

*Re: And another thing....*

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> *UK would certainly disagree. *




You guys know me too well! 

Hi ColonelHardisson mate!



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Perhaps jasamcarl is unfamiliar with Krusty's own very extensive deity system?*




I wouldn't hold that against him (or anyone) though! 



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *He's worked on it for quite a while, and so might have some insight into the matter at hand.*




I would like to think so...but then again I am probably biased! 



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *I realize, of course, that something not blessed directly by WotC and that is a fan-created work of love may be "unworthy" of serious attention (not a viewpoint I agree with, let me emphasize). *




...glad to hear it!


----------



## Akunin (Mar 7, 2002)

Misread the "at will" bit - no, they use Item Creation Rules, with a few additions for Epic play.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

*Re: no, no, UK*

Hi jasamcarl! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Yes, Avatar is listed as a salient ability, but we don't yet know what the ability is. Yes, obviously the creation of an avatar is involved, but any restrictions in terms of time, number of Avatars, actions that can be taken concurently, etc are not known.*




Does that mean we can't speculate, hypothesise, discuss!?

Last time I looked this was the General Discussion Forum! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *You said it yourself, wotc seems to be going the gods as npc route*




It appears this is the route they are concentrating on, but not exclusively. 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *(i.e. as an alternative to dm fudging);*




If you get the rules right why would the DM need to fudge!?



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *my point here is that is not 'broken' unless wotc clearly intended for these gods to be played.*




WotC have disclosed that Deities & Demigods will have rules for running Deity characters, so obviously that is their intention.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *And as to Hermes making something more powerful than himself...well, see above; we don't know what the ABILITY 'Avatar' is as of yet. Do we know what the Avatar is in and of itself. Yes.*




But given the facts so far, my previous hypothesis is more than plausible you have to admit!



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *I would suggest you wait until the book actually makes an appearance, until then your musings aren't striking me a relevant. *




I'm not passing judgement, merely proffering an opinion based on the current evidence.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

Hi Akunin!  



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *I can think of one way, yeah. Got 49M gold pieces handy? *




Don't you mean 4.9 million gp?

For a +70 Belt of Strength!?



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *Yes, it can be done by throwing money into item creation,*




I anticipated that.



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *but a more realistic value for a level 80 fighter (not including items) is a little less than half that. And that's with your 5 points from wishes, attribute points gained through levels,
> 
> ...and devoting as much of your Epic benefits to enhancing strength as possible.*




Its the Epic benefits I was most interested in. Are these treated as bonuses or multipliers I wonder!? In fact, not sure if you should tell us that!?



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *Ability scores for Epic characters are more flexible, yes (there are more ways to improve attributes). Bear in mind that in order to get a strength as high as I described requires focusing your character in one direction to the point that he'll be lacking in the others. STR of 60+ is nice, but the rest of your stats will still be well within mortal range, and you're sacrificing much of the flexibility that comes with Epic level benefits...*




I agree.



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *Hercules' stats look about right, but Hermes should be a bit higher, I think.*




Thats what I thought.



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *250k?  Wow.  That's super cheap!    Actually, that's at the low price end for Epic items.*




True but imagine if you can make them at will, with no cost to yourself!  



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *The 49 million gp item referance, above is an item that could (if you had the money and the time, not to mention the xp) be made at a much level lower than 80.  Much lower. *




Really! Now thats very interesting!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

*Re: ok......*

Hello again.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *No, i meant that a pc could not be a God in a normal adventuring party and maintain balance.*




Extravagant, but I don't see why not.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *As of these rules, the avatar is what one would expect, a less powerful version of the current diety.*




I don't think the distinction is great enough to make it worthwhile.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *To add a large number of akward new rules to simulate this would be overkill. *




I agree too many rules will 'spoil the broth'. But I think Avatars could easily be set much weaker and kept simple.


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 7, 2002)

*k*

Uh, no, i don't think your previous speculation is 'more than plausible'. If, having had no experience with dnd the month before it came out, you heard about the Fireball spell and posted something along the lines of "What!? A spell which can be thrown around that does much continuous damage and whos dc probably scales because the damage does as well and AT THRIRD LEVEL! Now that is unbalanced, or dare i say broken? This is sound preposterous, or at the very least, stupid in many instances!" I would not consider that more than plausible.


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 7, 2002)

*My First Flame?*

Again, you do not know exactly what an Avatar can and cannot do. If i had to SPECULATE i would say he is not precluded from certain high level abjurations, etc. His stats are there for CR purposes. Under certain conditions an Avatar could be of much greater value than the core diety; what was offered was a simple, elegant method of determining. But what do i know, because of course I HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 7, 2002)

OK, my contribution today will be:

Hera's Avatar

Avatar of Hera:

As Hera except divine rank 8; AC 65 (touch 44, flat-footed 65);  Atk +65/+60/+55/+50 melee (1d8+23, +5 thundering heavy mace); or spell +59 melee touch or +58 ranged touch;  SQ DR 43/+4; fire resistance 28; no fast healing, SR 40, divine aura (800 ft., DC 34); SV Fort +49, Ref +51, Will +50; all skill modifiers reduced by 8.

Salient Divine Abilities:  Alter Form, Alter Size, Arcane Mastery, Automatic Metamagic (extend wizard seplls), Divine Blast, Divine Shield, Extra Domain (Protection), Extra Sense Enhancement (sight), Shapechange.
Spell-Like Abilities:  Caster level 18th; saving throw DC 34 + Spell level

Of course, we don't have her stats to compare them with.

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

*Re: k*

Yet again! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Uh, no, i don't think your previous speculation is 'more than plausible'.*




You seem to be blatantly dismissive of the facts laid before you so far.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *If, having had no experience with dnd the month before it came out, you heard about the Fireball spell and posted something along the lines of "What!? A spell which can be thrown around that does much continuous damage and whos dc probably scales because the damage does as well and AT THRIRD LEVEL! Now that is unbalanced, or dare i say broken? This is sound preposterous, or at the very least, stupid in many instances!" I would not consider that more than plausible. *




Hardly an accurate parable of events.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Again, you do not know exactly what an Avatar can and cannot do.*




We know that Avatars are based on the deities stats, with differences (perhaps all, perhaps not) via Divine Ranks.

So at a base level Hermes Avatar is 60th-level with a Divine Rank of 7.

Therefore I stand by my opinion that Avatars do not promote interaction with mortals, which if you remember was my point of philosophical contention.

Mechanically the full difference of 8 Divine Ranks is not yet known to us but have already ascertained a number of relevant factors affected by Divine Rank:

- Automatic Actions (DC 10 + Divine Rank) 
- Innate Spell Levels (Level 10 + Divine Rank) 
- Domain Powers (Uses per day = Divine Rank) 
- Divine Aura (DC = Divine Rank + 10 + Cha bonus)
- Salient Divine Abilities (Divine Rank, or Divine Rank +1, gaining one for Divine Rank +0)
- Divine bonus to AC
- Spell Resistance (32 +Divine Rank)
- Damage Reduction (35 + Divine Rank)



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *But what do i know, because of course I HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK .*




Hey, feel free to speculate though!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 7, 2002)

Hi Glyfair mate! 

Thanks again for stopping by again! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *OK, my contribution today will be:
> 
> Hera's Avatar
> 
> ...




Thats confirmed a number of other ideas I thought. 

I wonder what Heras Levels are:

Probably Outsider 20HD/Wizard 20/Cleric 20 (with perhaps Fighter 10 as well?) if the other two are any indication!?


----------



## Talath (Mar 8, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Glyfair mate!
> 
> Thanks again for stopping by again!
> 
> ...




Be careful Krust, if you speculate too much, you might get in trouble


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 8, 2002)

*Upper Krust...*

You know the combat mechanics of the Avatar true, but just as you can't judge the effectivness of Summon Monster by the simple stats of the creature summoned (duration, casting time, limitation on where/when etc) you can't know how effective creating an Avatar is. In the former case, the spell isn't as effective as simply having such an ally permenantly with no cost would indicate. This holds true for the Avatar ability: THE ABILITY IS MORE THAN JUST THE STATS OF THE AVATAR!!! Do you understand?

And when did your self-described 'Speculation' and 'Educated Guesses' become FACTS which i have chosen to disregard? Hermes can summon and infinite number of Avatars...yeah right....


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 8, 2002)

*On the Topic of Speculation....*

Of course you can speculate and throw out what-if scenarios, but please be consistent with that without declaring that you have facts. You might have been able to derive the quantifiable stats to which i say 'Bully for you!' but to make blind assertions as to the qualititave nature of Salient abilities which by definition rarely included in a stat block and then to chime in with 'BROKEN! BROKEN!'......kinda puts me off....


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 8, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Glyfair mate!
> 
> Thanks again for stopping by again!
> 
> ...




I don't think cleric levels.  The first thing we get is the end of her spell-like abilities, and then the list of Wizard Spells per day (4/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4) and her base DC =18+ spell level.

So, I don't think Cleric level's are in the mix.  Actually, I don't see any deities having Cleric levels.  After all, who do they worship?  Not that it's an impossible circumstance, but I don't think it fits in with any known pantheon.

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## CRGreathouse (Mar 8, 2002)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Actually, I don't see any deities having Cleric levels.*




St. Cuthbert would be a logical choice.


----------



## LordMelkor{Talos} (Mar 8, 2002)

Upper Krust, have you noticed the fact, that if Avatar`s Divine Rank= half of deity`s Divine Rank, than we can assume that 15 is max for Intermediate Deity, and 16 is minimum for Greater Deity?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: Upper Krust...*

Morning all! 



			
				Talath said:
			
		

> *Be careful Krust, if you speculate too much, you might get in trouble*




Nothing I can't handle I'm sure! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *You know the combat mechanics of the Avatar true,*




Thank you.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *but just as you can't judge the effectivness of Summon Monster by the simple stats of the creature summoned (duration, casting time, limitation on where/when etc)*




I fail to see what the 'Summon Monster' analogy has to do with this!? Avatars have always been permanent beings in D&D and I see no logical reason why this is set to change!?



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *you can't know how effective creating an Avatar is.*




We know that WotC regard it as effective as one Salient Divine Ability.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *In the former case, the spell isn't as effective as simply having such an ally permenantly with no cost would indicate.*




True. But then unless they impose some time limit on Avatar existence this example doesn't help us.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *This holds true for the Avatar ability: THE ABILITY IS MORE THAN JUST THE STATS OF THE AVATAR!!! Do you understand?*




If you notice from Glyfairs post when describing Hera's Avatar WotC write: 

*"As Hera except..."* 

They then proceed to list the differences.

If you are implying that any character is more than just the sum of their parts then I agree. But that in no way displaces any part of my argument.

Although somewhere along the line I have lost what we were arguing about!?

We know certain facts, to which I have added some speculation and subsequently an opinion based on that speculation.

*Are you arguing that I may be incorrect!?* I agree.

*Are you arguing I don't have the right to speculate about upcoming products!?* If so, you are missing the point of the General Discussion board.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *And when did your self-described 'Speculation' and 'Educated Guesses' become FACTS which i have chosen to disregard?*




I wasn't describing any speculation I was refering to the FACTS we have already unearthed. 

I suggest you read them...weeping is optional. 

- Automatic Actions (DC 10 + Divine Rank) 
- Innate Spell Levels (Level 10 + Divine Rank) 
- Domain Powers (Uses per day = Divine Rank) 
- Divine Aura (DC = Divine Rank + 10 + Cha bonus) 
- Salient Divine Abilities (Divine Rank +1, gaining one for Divine Rank +0)
- Divine bonus to AC 
- Spell Resistance (32 +Divine Rank) 
- Damage Reduction (35 + Divine Rank) 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Hermes can summon and infinite number of Avatars...yeah right.... *




I don't remember saying that. What I did say was that it looks as though the Avatar ability represents one Salient Divine Ability choice; of which Hermes has at least 16 (Divine Rank +1).

Presumably they wouldn't allow you to chose 'Avatar' at Divine Rank 0 or 1.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Of course you can speculate and throw out what-if scenarios,*




Thank you.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *but please be consistent with that without declaring that you have facts.*




I have been consistent, you just haven't been paying attention mate! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *You might have been able to derive the quantifiable stats to which i say 'Bully for you!' *




Thank you.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *but to make blind assertions as to the qualititave nature of Salient abilities which by definition rarely included in a stat block and then to chime in with 'BROKEN! BROKEN!'......kinda puts me off....*




The 'qualititive nature of Salient Abilities' will have little effect on either my 'mechanical' or 'philosophical' argument.

Divine Rank may represent the equivalent of +1 (Epic) Level, or +2, or +3, or +4 etc. But it definately represents a '+'.

What I have said when delivering speculation is that 'based on the evidence at our disposal *if* they are handling things like this then heres my opinion'...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 8, 2002)

Hi Glyfair mate! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *I don't think cleric levels.  The first thing we get is the end of her spell-like abilities, and then the list of Wizard Spells per day (4/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4) and her base DC =18+ spell level.
> 
> So, I don't think Cleric level's are in the mix.  Actually, I don't see any deities having Cleric levels.*




That is interesting and somewhat curious, what would happen to cleric levels upon ascension under those circumstances (change to Outsider Hit Dice?)

Its possible that you only got the end of her spell like abilities, Cleric Spells would be listed before Wizard spells after all.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *After all, who do they worship?*




You would assume if they could grant spells to others they could grant them to themselves.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Not that it's an impossible circumstance, but I don't think it fits in with any known pantheon. *




I'm not entirely convinced they will divorce Cleric (and Paladin) levels from divinity.

Hello CR mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> *St. Cuthbert would be a logical choice.*




Perhaps when we get the second preview in Dragon magazine shortly we will know more!? Anyone heard who the four Greyhawk deities being detailed are? (Kelanen; Vecna; St. Cuthbert and Boccob hopefully? Or maybe Iuz in place of Kelanen?)


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 8, 2002)

Hey Lord Talos mate! 



			
				LordMelkor{Talos} said:
			
		

> *Upper Krust, have you noticed the fact, that if Avatar`s Divine Rank= half of deity`s Divine Rank, than we can assume that 15 is max for Intermediate Deity, and 16 is minimum for Greater Deity? *




I had.

Seemingly:

Quasi/Hero-deity = Divine Rank 0
Demigod = Divine Rank 1-5
Lesser God = Divine Rank 6-10
Intermediate God = Divine Rank 11-15
Greater God = Divine Rank 16-20

Uber Deity = Divine Rank 21-25?

Incidently Lord Talos mate! Sorry I haven't gotten round to the Portfolio secondary aspect list yet on the IH thread. A number of things cropped up. Not least the ensuing discussion (and debate) within this thread.


----------



## Gez (Mar 8, 2002)

Since Hera's divine rank is (probably) 16, not 20, the automatic action DC formulae is probably not 10 + divine rank. Maybe an ability bonus play somewhere ? There's probably another factor than a flat 10.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 8, 2002)

Hi Gez mate! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Automatic Actions: She can use any Cha or Int related skill as a free action if the DC is 30 or lower.*






			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *Since Hera's divine rank is (probably) 16, not 20, the automatic action DC formulae is probably not 10 + divine rank. Maybe an ability bonus play somewhere ? There's probably another factor than a flat 10. *




I agree that does throw a 'spanner in the works' (unless of course its a typo - which is my guess?).

Not sure it could be an ability bonus since it is given for multiple ability score related skills. 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Automatic Actions: (Herc can use any Str or Dex based skill as a free action if the DC is 15 or lower if he has the skill or it can be used untrained)*




(Meant to add) 

...and Hercs Str and Dex scores are hardly equal.


----------



## i8flesh (Mar 8, 2002)

*Thanks*

I'm glad that you all enjoyed the excerpt on Deities & Demigods that we ran in issue #25. For those of you that haven't seen it, I encourage you to pick up a copy of the issue at your local hobby store. Many stores actually offer subscriptions so that you can get a copy of the magazine every month!

Next Ish: 8 page excerpt from Dark Ages Vampire, a 4 page introductory adventure to d20 Call of Cthulhu written by Monte Cook, and a cover story about Guardians of Order's Silver Age Sentinels.

Make sure you reserve a copy of issue #27 now (supplies will be limited)! Issue #27 will have an excerpt from Steve Jackson's Hellboy RPG, plus we are going to be giving away a Neon Genesis Evangelion DVD box Set! The entire series on DVD retailing for $169.98.

Also remember to check out our website to enter in our monthly quiz, this month's prize is a Signed copy of Kingdoms of Kalamar!


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 8, 2002)

*Which brings us to the point*

You do not know what SALIENT ABILITIES ENTAIL EITHER! Like many feats that can only be taken once, Avatar might very well be a oneshot deal. And while avatars might very well be permenant(God knows this couldn't have actually changed between editions like so much else!) insofar as there is a 'fixed cost' that is attached to future uses, what the diety can and cannot do while this avatar is in action has yet to be detailed. Yes, i alluded to those facts and those i have never challenged, i'm referring to your assumptions about the qualitative facets of Salient Abilities. Must i pat you on the back for your ability to spend a lot of time and arithmetic on a 2 page preview? In summary, i give you credit for what you know, but please stay there.....


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: Thanks*

Hi Andrew thanks for stopping by! 



			
				i8flesh said:
			
		

> *I'm glad that you all enjoyed the excerpt on Deities & Demigods that we ran in issue #25. For those of you that haven't seen it, I encourage you to pick up a copy of the issue at your local hobby store. Many stores actually offer subscriptions so that you can get a copy of the magazine every month!
> 
> Next Ish: 8 page excerpt from Dark Ages Vampire, a 4 page introductory adventure to d20 Call of Cthulhu written by Monte Cook, and a cover story about Guardians of Order's Silver Age Sentinels.
> 
> ...




I'm anticipating Deities & Demigods, Call of Cthulhu and the Hellboy RPG so put me down for at least those three issues...that is if I could manage to get them from somewhere!?

I had already checked the website (for anyone reading this they have the Hercules illustration on the site) but it appears only retailers can order!? So I'll have to get my retailer to subscribe I imagine!?

Can the magazine be ordered via somewhere that doesn't involve the retailer as 'middle-man'? The situation here (in Northern Ireland) isn't that great. Though I guess going that route I'll get stroked on the P&P!?

Also your saying supplies will be limited. 

I'll have a chat with my retailer Monday morning about getting me a years subscription hopefully I can get it sorted!?


----------



## i8flesh (Mar 8, 2002)

*Suscriptions*

Unfortunately, Game Trade Magazine does not offer sunscriptions to its readers. The only way to get the magazine is through your local retailer.

The reason I say supplies are limited is not because we have set the print run yet. Everyone who orders one should be able to get one. It is so that you inform your retailer that YOU want a copy. If a retailer normally orders a dozen issues, and a dozen people come in and pick up the issue before you are able to get into the store, he will run out. He can order more, but by then generally WE run out. Your retailer will not know how many to order unless you tell him. 

To all my friends across the water:
I am sorry if you are unable to find our fine publication (toot, toot). Your retailer can order the magazine through Diamond UK, the same place he gets his Marvel and DC comics.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 8, 2002)

*Once more unto the breach...*

Hello jasamcarl! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *You do not know what SALIENT ABILITIES ENTAIL EITHER!*




I think we can have a fair idea of most.

Automatic Metamagic; Extra Domain; Free Move; Gust of Wind (revealed); Supreme Initiative.

Any Salient Ability with the Divine prefix (almost certainly) uses the Divine Rank in some manner.

eg. Divine Weapon Focus - I'll bet my right nut gives a BAB bonus for that weapon equal to Divine Rank.

So therefore if we know at least some of the Salient Divine Abilities we can gauge the measure of the rest.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Like many feats that can only be taken once, Avatar might very well be a oneshot deal. *




I totally agree, its possible.

Though not conclusive; since previous editions have shown multiple Avatars were allowed.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *And while avatars might very well be permenant (God knows this couldn't have actually changed between editions like so much else!)*




Of course its plausible. But given the evidence at hand and prior knowledge on the subject (in the shape of previous editions) thats not the conclusion I would draw at this point.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *And while avatars might very well be permenant insofar as there is a 'fixed cost' that is attached to future uses, what the diety can and cannot do while this avatar is in action has yet to be detailed.*




It seems reasonable to assume that having an Avatar in action would have negligable effect on a deity itself. The deity isn't going to manifest some ability that unduly hinders itself.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Yes, i alluded to those facts and those i have never challenged,*




Does that constitute a pat on the back from you!? 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *i'm referring to your assumptions about the qualitative facets of Salient Abilities. *




From what we know Deities can choose from a list of Salient Divine Abilities each of which fills a slot (its plausible some may fill more than one slot I suppose).

Therefore we can assume that WotC have determined the list to be 'roughly' balanced (as much as such things can).



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Must i pat you on the back for your ability to spend a lot of time and arithmetic on a 2 page preview?*




I only spent 10 minutes unravelling the simplistic mechanics.

But rather longer it seems, replying to your negativity.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *In summary, i give you credit for what you know, but please stay there..... *




A classic case of pessimist (you) vs. optimist (me).

You seem to be hung up on what we don't know waiting for someone to explain to you the 'big picture', whereas I am interested in what we do know and in learning more.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: Suscriptions*

Hi Andrew! 



			
				i8flesh said:
			
		

> *Unfortunately, Game Trade Magazine does not offer sunscriptions to its readers. The only way to get the magazine is through your local retailer.
> 
> The reason I say supplies are limited is not because we have set the print run yet. Everyone who orders one should be able to get one. It is so that you inform your retailer that YOU want a copy. If a retailer normally orders a dozen issues, and a dozen people come in and pick up the issue before you are able to get into the store, he will run out. He can order more, but by then generally WE run out. Your retailer will not know how many to order unless you tell him.*




Okay I'll get on it! 



			
				i8flesh said:
			
		

> *To all my friends across the water:
> I am sorry if you are unable to find our fine publication (toot, toot). *




I get it! 



			
				i8flesh said:
			
		

> *Your retailer can order the magazine through Diamond UK, the same place he gets his Marvel and DC comics. *




That should make things easier - its a combined Comics/RPG store. 

Hopefully it will be easier than trying to pick up an issue of Dragon magazine!? 

Thanks again Andrew!


----------



## S'mon (Mar 8, 2002)

*my poll*

Hi everyone - U_K & all, please vote in my 'what level of game do you like best' poll - Craig I'm wondering if you're happy with Thrin as a lesser god or if you'd prefer to play in a super-deity campaign...


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 8, 2002)

*One last time......*

Previous editions had very little balance if i recall. If you maintain your assumption that God-level play will be supported in this edition, then changes will have to be made to deal with a more rigorous game theory and thus maintain balance. To that creation of avatars might actually come at a 'cost' appropriate to its benefits. You yourself said that the Avatar ABILITY looks broken..then you turn on that position and say that any possible cost (some potential candidates of which i have layed out) would more or less 'shaft' this ability. Do you actually believe in a sound mechanical basis for dieties or do you not? You have committed both a slippery slope fallacy as well as a circular one (Is the Avatar ability broken? Yes, because Gods are meant to be balanced. I know Gods are meant to be balanced because they include an Avatar ability.) 

I am infact the optomist because i am not willing to jump to wild conclusions conscerning Wotc's incompetence through a specious analysis of a STAT BLOCK which by its nature does not include explanations of QUALATATIVE ABILITIES, because it, as the term 'stat' indicates includes mostly quantitative data. Can you look at a new skill in a characters skill list and just surmise the dcs and situations with which they are paired? Of course not. The same applies to feats(note the special paragraph under many in the phb). You might have a reasonable chance of coming to plausible explanations to those Salient Abilities which relate directly back to feats(especially if their effects are shown in the stat block itself), but you make automatic assumptions about the word 'Avatar' and its balance(assuming that is even an issue) by alluding to prior editions of dieties books (atleast 2e) which never intended balance. Contradiction after Contradiction.

That said, i'm looking forward to analysing the balance of Dieties and Demigods myself. Who knows, you might be correct which would be dumb luck but....oh well. I would also like to take a gander at the Immortal's Handbook. Maybe in your rendition you take no risks in terminology so as everyone just assumes 'Balance'. I wonder what that magic word would be.


----------



## Akunin (Mar 8, 2002)

/me hands jasamcarl a cup of decaf.

Let me see if I am understanding you.  Are you stating that 3e is _balanced_?

Please excuse me while I fall off my chair.

The 3e is _closer_ to balanced than previous editions, but to believe that there is some sort of harmonious unity between the power levels of various races, classes, Feat combinations, Deities, and what have you is a fairly silly notion.

Attaining balance in an RPG is similar to building a Carnot engine. 

Why must the Gods follow this mythical "balance"?  They're deities - and deities regularly break the rules and do things that no mortal is able to.  Balance should never enter into the equation when dealing with the distinction between the mortal and the divine.


----------



## Florin (Mar 8, 2002)

Just to throw a little more wood on the fire here...

I actually agree with jasamcarl's idea on the Avatar ability.  It's what struck me as the most logical thing before I read his interpretation.  It makes more sense for the Avatar ability to only produce one avatar.  However, I also think it's very plausible to make the Avatar ability available for more than one purchase.    So, if you want two avatars, buy Avatar twice!!!


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 8, 2002)

*uh, Akunin*

If you would have taken the time to read krusty and i's respective posts you would note that i never asserted that (interparty) balance was factor here. I was simply taking the premise that Upper Krust was working on, that balance was a neccessity, and turning it on his claims. That having been said, i agree with you to some extent...the key is intent...if you believe Wotc values balance now (probable) then there is no reason to believe they would not break with past canon or modify the particulars in order to make god mechanically viable/quantifiable. This requires an Oppurtunity cost commensurate with the value of the ability. And again, this is all raw speculation because we do not know what the Avatar ability entails....


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 8, 2002)

*I'll be back!*

Circumstances dictate I am going to be away from the computer for almost 15 hours.

Suffice to say your points will be summarily dealt with jasamcarl!

Until then. 

Take care all, and have a good Friday night!


----------



## jasamcarl (Mar 8, 2002)

*Bring It on......*

I look forward to our next clash of words, uk.


----------



## Akunin (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: uh, Akunin*



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *If you would have taken the time to read krusty and i's respective posts*




Ah!  And here I was wondering what I've been doing all this time. 

Your most recent posts regarding balance don't make this clear to me, though.



> Previous editions had very little balance if i recall. If you maintain your assumption that God-level play will be supported in this edition, then changes will have to be made to deal with a more rigorous game theory and thus maintain balance.





> That said, i'm looking forward to analysing the balance of Dieties and Demigods myself. Who knows, you might be correct which would be dumb luck but....oh well. I would also like to take a gander at the Immortal's Handbook. Maybe in your rendition you take no risks in terminology so as everyone just assumes 'Balance'.




I took this to be "balance" in the overarcing sense, since you don't specify what is being balanced, and the word was only used a few times prior to this.   We know that there are going to be quantifiable rules for statting out deities, and that they have game mechanic statistics.  I only hope that the rules provide information or advice for using deities who cannot be described with a stat block (I always preferred the Planescape boxed set rules for handling interactions between PCs and the gods, rather than the various other first and second edition rules).

/me shudders to think of the campaigns that will spring up where gods are treated as just more Monster Manual critters to kill and loot.

I'd actually prefer that they give us stats for Avatars of the gods (as they did in previous books) and then a run-down of the various "domains" or "portfolios" of the divinities, and a rough approximation of what they can do within their realm of influence.



> That having been said, I agree with you to some extent...the key is intent...if you believe Wotc values balance now (probable) then there is no reason to believe they would not break with past canon or modify the particulars in order to make god mechanically viable/quantifiable.




Agreed.  Not that I *like* the idea of statting out the gods, and I'll probably just use the stats as qualitative descriptions of the deities' relative power.  At the least, we should have a good idea of the power levels for Avatars, which is what the PCs are more likely to encounter.

Unfortunately, it appears that there is more deviation from the attempted balance of the Core Rules as more rule books are released.  We're seeing an escalation of the more powerful Feats and Prestige Classes that require sacrificing little to gain a great many abilities.   The Core Rules had many "weak" Feats, but often those served as prerequisites for the "better' Feats.  Now, we see the same "weak" Feats, but they are less desirable, because they are not a part of useful Feat chains, whereas several powerful Feats have been grafted onto existing chains or are stand-alone abilities, making them easier to acquire.

I think they *value* balance, but balance doesn't sell books, whereas "kewel powerz" do.   

Epic Level Rules, by comparison to the level 1-20 materials, allow for a huge escalation of power, but from what I've seen, it's not really a game-breaker - the challenges to a party of 30th-level characters are higher, the enemies have more powerful equipment, and the power levels scale nicely.  But take the jump to divine-powered characters, and any idea of "balance" should really be thrown out the window.  

Providing a framework for building gods is just fine, and I am totally in agreement with that approach, but I don't think there needs to be an attempt to reconcile the power levels with normal or epic play.  There's just too big a gap between the mortal and the divine.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: Once more unto the breach...*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *I think we can have a fair idea of most.
> 
> Automatic Metamagic; Extra Domain; Free Move; Gust of Wind (revealed); Supreme Initiative.
> 
> ...




My personal take on the "Divine X" abilities is not that they require a Divine Rank of zero or better to take.  I don't think any of them get better as your divine rank does.  After all, no normal feats have a progression based on your level.  They all are all or nothing abilites.

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## Berandor (Mar 9, 2002)

So waht if the DDG book had a preface stating the following:
_Avatars: 
A deity can have one avatar for every 5 points of divine rank she has. The avatar is in existance at all times, but it can only exist for 1 day on the material plane before having to return to the outer planes for at least one day.
Note that all avatars have half the original deity's hit points._

You cannot know that, can you?

Berandor


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: uh, Akunin*



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> /me shudders to think of the campaigns that will spring up where gods are treated as just more Monster Manual critters to kill and loot.
> *




Rev up the Way-Back Machine Mr. Peabody, we're headin' to 1e! Ah yes, I remember it well...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 9, 2002)

*Lets get ready to RUMBLE!.*

Hi jasamcarl! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Previous editions had very little balance if i recall.*




If you are refering to how deities were treated then 1st Ed. was as balanced as the rules themselves. 2nd Ed. eschewed balance by making the deities virtually omnipotent (and therefore irrelevant with regards allowing tangible interaction).



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *If you maintain your assumption that God-level play will be supported in this edition, *




Its not an assumption. Ed Stark (WotC); whose actually in charge of both Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook projects informed me (and the rest of the WotC Message Boards) that D&Dg would cater for Deity PCs, though it wouldn't be the focus of the book.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *then changes will have to be made to deal with a more rigorous game theory and thus maintain balance.*




Obviously WotC have already thought of this, which is why we can presume the Salient Divine Abilities are roughly balanced (as much as such thiings can be balanced).



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *To that creation of avatars might actually come at a 'cost' appropriate to its benefits*




Its certainly plausible, but not given the current evidence.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *You yourself said that the Avatar ABILITY looks broken...*




True, *if* my speculation is accurate. Which was my position all along.

I am certainly willing to concede my speculation may be misplaced, in fact I hope I am wrong! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *then you turn on that position*




Lets just hold it there.

Feel free to quote me but don't start paraphrasing and putting words in my mouth.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *and say that any possible cost (some potential candidates of which i have layed out) would more or less 'shaft' this ability.*




Your point was that the 'Avatar' ability could hinder the deity. 

I already conceded that it could be limited in scope (though we have no such evidence *yet*) but I went on to add that this in no way effects my mechanical or philosophical argument.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Do you actually believe in a sound mechanical basis for dieties or do you not?*




Of course. Its the only way to allow them to fairly interact.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *You have committed both a slippery slope fallacy as well as a circular one (Is the Avatar ability broken? Yes, because Gods are meant to be balanced. I know Gods are meant to be balanced because they include an Avatar ability.)*




Again your paraphrasing rather than quoting and using _ad hominem_ attacks when clearly you should be addressing my arguments, which I have conceded all along are speculative based on the *current* evidence.

Your also adjoining my two arguments which I have always clearly divorced by labelling them 'mechanical' and 'philosophical'.

'Mechanically' the ability to create something more powerful than yourself in and of your own power *is broken*. Based on current evidence we can hypothesise (this to be the case) and subsequently speculate - but at no point did I draw conclusions.

'Philosophically' I always believed Avatars would be better served as 'middle-men' between Mortals and Deities. WotC don't seem to have gone this route which is fair enough in itself, but I would argue does not promote interaction - which is one of the primary reasons for having stats in the first place.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *I am infact the optomist because i am not willing to jump to wild conclusions*




Hardly 'wild' since I have clearly labelled my evidence from the beginning.

With regards you being the optimist - you are certainly seeing windmills and imagining they might be giants - I'll give you that! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *conscerning Wotc's incompetence*




One (hypothesised) mistake (and another point I don't philosophically agree with personally) within such a vast body of mechanics hardly denotes incompetence; again you put words in my mouth.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *through a specious analysis of a STAT BLOCK*




Speculative, not specious.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *which by its nature does not include explanations of QUALATATIVE ABILITIES,*




Many of which we do know, others we can guess and overall are capable of gauging the 'typical' measure of the abilities.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *because it, as the term 'stat' indicates includes mostly quantitative data. Can you look at a new skill in a characters skill list and just surmise the dcs and situations with which they are paired? Of course not.*




Irrelevant analogy. Again you are discussing what we don't know, whereas I am discussing what we do know.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *You might have a reasonable chance of coming to plausible explanations to those Salient Abilities which relate directly back to feats (especially if their effects are shown in the stat block itself), but you make automatic assumptions about the word 'Avatar' and its balance (assuming that is even an issue)*




We can already discern (approx.) 75% of the revealed Salient Divine Abilities. Its hardly a great leap of faith to assume WotC would want the rest 'roughly' balanced.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *by alluding to prior editions of dieties books (at least 2e) which never intended balance. *




To speculate that multiple Avatars might be possible. Not to confirm the point.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Contradiction after Contradiction.*




Not when your only evidence is paraphrasing hyperbole! 

If I wan't having fun here I would have ignored your opening salvo. 

The only valid point you have made is that we don't yet know all the facts so my criticisms are speculative - which I have attested to all along! None of which affects my 'mechanical' or 'philosophical' arguments! 

...have you something new to add?



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *That said, i'm looking forward to analysing the balance of Dieties and Demigods myself. *




Yep, it should be a great book! 

The 1st Ed. book is probably my favourite of all time, I am hoping it will soon be knocked into second place! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Who knows, you might be correct which would be dumb luck but....oh well.*




I would have thought deductive reasoning would be more appropriate.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *I would also like to take a gander at the Immortal's Handbook.*




Thanks!  I appreciate the interest! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Maybe in your rendition you take no risks in terminology so as everyone just assumes 'Balance'. I wonder what that magic word would be.  *




I look forward to all feedback. 

If you have any questions I would be more than happy to answer them in the IH thread (or via email).


----------



## Moon_Goddess (Mar 9, 2002)

I have to admit, I completely do not understand the consept of Avatars

In 2e, when Gods weren't allowed to have stats, and were depicted as formless ideas without true physical manifestations, I could understand the need for Avatars to give stats to.

I understood it, but I didn't agree with it.   I just droped the whole arbitrary idea and gave the stats and physical manifestation to the god itself.

With 3e returning to stated gods with true physical forms I am once again confused as to why we need avatars.    Why does the god need a second set of stats?    If a god needs to be in 2 places at once, ok, that's what gods do.  2 places, 5 places, 200 places, whatever.   They don't need an avatar form to pull it off.

I sersiously hope that D&Dg has a No Avatar option or at least a really good explination of why we need them other than just an arbitrary hold over from previous editions.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 9, 2002)

Hi Akunin mate! 



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *Balance should never enter into the equation when dealing with the distinction between the mortal and the divine. *




I agreed with your other comments though I thought I should point out that WotC members working on D&Dg/ELH have stated that at some point Epic characters exceed Deities in power - though up to now they haven't revealed exactly what they think that distinction should be.

In my estimation it obviously hinges around Divine Rank. While obviously not an accurate comparative Divine Rank must be roughly comparable to a multiple of Epic Levels - for the purpose of determining Challenge Rating.

I proffered +2 Epic Levels is roughly equivalent to +1 Divine Rank (though I forgot to include Divine Rank 0 in my equations) but that is just a best guess at the moment.

eg. Hercules = 40 levels + Divine Rank 5 (treated as 6) could equate to 52 levels.

If you were to assume it was 1 Divine Rank = +3 Levels!?

eg. Hercules = 40 levels + Divine Rank 5 (treated as 6) could equate to 58 levels.

etc.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: uh, Akunin*

Hello again mate! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *I was simply taking the premise that Upper Krust was working on, that balance was a neccessity, and turning it on his claims.*




Nice try at subversion (again) but I never said that it was a necessity; but its certainly a preference in lieu of the alternative.



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *That having been said, i agree with you to some extent...the key is intent...if you believe Wotc values balance now (probable) then there is no reason to believe they would not break with past canon or modify the particulars in order to make god mechanically viable/quantifiable.*




Are  we actually agreeing on something!? 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *This requires an Oppurtunity cost commensurate with the value of the ability. And again, this is all raw speculation because we do not know what the Avatar ability entails.... *




Wait a second...are you allowed to speculate yet I am not!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 9, 2002)

Hey Florin mate! 



			
				Florin said:
			
		

> *Just to throw a little more wood on the fire here...*




Like we needed it! 



			
				Florin said:
			
		

> *I actually agree with jasamcarl's idea on the Avatar ability. *




He had an idea - I thought he was just chastising mine! (joking jasamcarl mate!) 



			
				Florin said:
			
		

> *It's what struck me as the most logical thing before I read his interpretation.  It makes more sense for the Avatar ability to only produce one avatar.*




I agree...



			
				Florin said:
			
		

> *However, I also think it's very plausible to make the Avatar ability available for more than one purchase.    So, if you want two avatars, buy Avatar twice!!!   *




...exactly!

One choice of Salient Divine Ability "Avatar" per Avatar...thats what I have been saying all along.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: Bring It on......*

Hi mate! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *I look forward to our next clash of words, uk.  *




I have to admit I am enjoying it despite the fact I should be busy doing other things...no prizes for guessing what!?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Once more unto the breach...*

Hi Glyfair mate! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *My personal take on the "Divine X" abilities is not that they require a Divine Rank of zero or better to take. *




Mmmm.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *I don't think any of them get better as your divine rank does.*




Possible I suppose, but I would disagree with that assessment at this point.

It seems pretty clear Divine 'Abilities' do scale with Divine Rank.

It doesn't seem to work any other way.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *After all, no normal feats have a progression based on your level.  They all are all or nothing abilites. *




Seemingly 'Divine' Abilities (those using the Divine prefix that is) do scale.

Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to noticeably reduce certain Avatar stats.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 9, 2002)

Hi there Berandor! 



			
				Berandor said:
			
		

> *So what if the DDG book had a preface stating the following:
> 
> Avatars:
> A deity can have one avatar for every 5 points of divine rank she has.*



_ 

I like this idea! 



			
				Berandor said:
			
		


*The avatar is in existance at all times, but it can only exist for 1 day on the material plane before having to return to the outer planes for at least one day.*

Click to expand...



Seems fair enough.



			
				Berandor said:
			
		


*Note that all avatars have half the original deity's hit points.*

Click to expand...


_
Seemingly this isn't the case otherwise surely it would be mentioned within Hermes (or Heras) Avatar descriptions with the rest of the modifications!?

Then again I would have to say this is a definite possibility and one I would support!



			
				Berandor said:
			
		

> *You cannot know that, can you? *




Some interesting points (pretty much all of which I would support)

...though (if jasamcarl is reading this) still nothing that contradicts any of my points.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 9, 2002)

Hi DarwinofMind! 



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *I have to admit, I completely do not understand the consept of Avatars*




Well, the idea stems from Indian Mythology where various deities would descend to Earth in incarnate form.

The key subject to research about this is the god Vishnu. 

In 2nd Ed. they allowed the deities to interact with PCs via Avatars. That way even if the Avatar gets destroyed the deity is still intact - representing the mythological and philosophical incorrectness of multiple omnipotent deities that 2nd Ed. advocated.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *In 2e, when Gods weren't allowed to have stats, and were depicted as formless ideas without true physical manifestations, I could understand the need for Avatars to give stats to.*




True, but 2nd Ed. didn't allow for Deities as PCs.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *I understood it, but I didn't agree with it.   I just droped the whole arbitrary idea and gave the stats and physical manifestation to the god itself.*




They didn't so much drop 2nd Ed. as return to 1st Ed. ideology.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *With 3e returning to stated gods with true physical forms I am once again confused as to why we need avatars.*




Well, think of the Avatars as powerful servants of the god that just happen to be a virtual facsimilie. 



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *Why does the god need a second set of stats?*




I concur that power-wise the Avatar should be well divorced from the Deity itself. 



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *If a god needs to be in 2 places at once, ok, that's what gods do.  2 places, 5 places, 200 places, whatever.   They don't need an avatar form to pull it off. *




I think the emphasis is that deities are generally not allowed to interfere on the mortal realm personally - only through intermediaries.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *I sersiously hope that D&Dg has a No Avatar option or at least a really good explination of why we need them other than just an arbitrary hold over from previous editions. *




You could always simply ban the 'Avatar' ability though I think D&Dg will explain its reasoning comrehensively.


----------



## Moon_Goddess (Mar 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Well, the idea stems from Indian Mythology where various deities would descend to Earth in incarnate form.
> 
> The key subject to research about this is the god Vishnu.  *




To me this doesn't seem to explian the consept.    As sending an avatar wouldn't be a god descending to earth it would still be working through an intermidiary,    Pelor sending Pelor's avatar to earth is no different than him sending a Solar, just more powerful.      I fail to understand why he doesn't come himself.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *In 2nd Ed. they allowed the deities to interact with PCs via Avatars. That way even if the Avatar gets destroyed the deity is still intact - representing the mythological and philosophical incorrectness of multiple omnipotent deities that 2nd Ed. advocated. *




Easily handled by a rule simular to summoned creatures, you could say any deity destroyed off his home plane rematerializes on his home plane and can't leave again for 1 year and 1 day.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by DarwinofMind
> I understood it, but I didn't agree with it. I just droped the whole arbitrary idea and gave the stats and physical manifestation to the god itself.
> ...




I think you missunderstood me here, I was saying in 2e, I droped Avatars completely and gave stats to the gods.




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> I think the emphasis is that deities are generally not allowed to interfere on the mortal realm personally - only through intermediaries.  *




Purely an abitrary limit,  and I feel part of the point of gods is they don't have abitrary limits.    Who's to keep a god from interacting with the morals, possibly AO in FR, but in most worlds there is no force to tell the gods what to do


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Mar 9, 2002)

I've noticed that the descriptions come with the entry "she is immortal".  Which might be a special ability in itself.  Now while I believe it would most certainly mean that they are never affected by old-age or die from natural causes.  I wonder if it would come attached with some ability such as, "When reduced to less than 0 hit points the deity, may return at full hit points and abilities anywhere they desire, after a period of absence based on their divine rank."  There would be exceptions to this such as powerful divine sources or and using something like trap the soul.

With something like this the period of the deity's absence could be quite costly, costing them worshippers.  The period of absence could be in years for demideities to a matter of rounds (such as the next) for uberdeities.   If they don't have something like this, then I'll use this.

But then I think that deities should also be able to use any spell they can grant to their worshippers, at will and as a free action a number of times per round dependant on their divine rank.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 9, 2002)

Hello again! 



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *To me this doesn't seem to explian the consept. As sending an avatar wouldn't be a god descending to earth it would still be working through an intermidiary, Pelor sending Pelor's avatar to earth is no different than him sending a Solar, just more powerful. I fail to understand why he doesn't come himself.*




Divine Intervention on the mortal plane has repurcussions and reprisals.

...I think Gary Gygax described it in his Gord the Rogue novels as destroying the fabric of reality.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *Easily handled by a rule simular to summoned creatures, you could say any deity destroyed off his home plane rematerializes on his home plane and can't leave again for 1 year and 1 day.*




Likely they will have something like this as well.

But Avatars provide the deity with another option.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *I think you missunderstood me here, I was saying in 2e, I droped Avatars completely and gave stats to the gods.*




We did the same ourselves.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *Purely an abitrary limit,  and I feel part of the point of gods is they don't have abitrary limits. Who's to keep a god from interacting with the mortals, possibly AO in FR, but in most worlds there is no force to tell the gods what to do *




Well this would come down to Pantheon Edicts and Immortal Laws.

Ao is an obvious adjudicator. 

Personally I think Divine Intervention on the mortal plane is akin to deploying nukes. Everybodies got them but they are rarely used as the retaliation would be devastating to all sides.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 9, 2002)

Hi there Kobold Avenger! 



			
				Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> *I've noticed that the descriptions come with the entry "she is immortal".  Which might be a special ability in itself. *




I would say it certainly has its merits.



			
				Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> *Now while I believe it would most certainly mean that they are never affected by old-age or die from natural causes.  *




At least...



			
				Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> *I wonder if it would come attached with some ability such as, "When reduced to less than 0 hit points the deity, may return at full hit points and abilities anywhere they desire, after a period of absence based on their divine rank."  There would be exceptions to this such as powerful divine sources or and using something like trap the soul. *




I agree.



			
				Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> *With something like this the period of the deity's absence could be quite costly, costing them worshippers.  *




Deities & Demigods (to my knowledge) doesn't directly equate divinity with worship(pers); though I know something similar that does! 



			
				Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> *The period of absence could be in years for demideities to a matter of rounds (such as the next) for uberdeities.   If they don't have something like this, then I'll use this. *




I have something (virtually) identical to this in the Immortals Handbook. I would venture so will Deities & Demigods!?



			
				Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> *But then I think that deities should also be able to use any spell they can grant to their worshippers, at will, and as a free action a number of times per round dependant on their divine rank. *




Well I have a slightly different take on granting spells. 

In effect, deities are divine conduits that allow mortals to tap cosmic energy and shape it to the desired effect. 

Thus explaining why deities don't actually have to have clerical powers to be able to grant them; and also why the various ranks of divinity are not relevant to the measure of clerical power available (almost everyone* would worship Greater Gods rather than Hero-deities if they granted access to more powerful spells).


----------



## Akunin (Mar 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *If you were to assume it was 1 Divine Rank = +3 Levels!?
> 
> eg. Hercules = 40 levels + Divine Rank 5 (treated as 6) could equate to 58 levels.
> 
> etc. *




Hmmm - judging from what we've seen of his stats so far,  you may very well be onto something.  We may or may not see a rule to that effect describing the "equivalency" of Divine Rank to Epic Levels, but as a rough estimate, it seems to work.  I think I'd be a little more conservative and say +4.  Epic characters can get really scary, but several abilities they can gain are negated by Herc's immunities.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 10, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Once more unto the breach...*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Glyfair mate!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It could be if each "Divine Rank" gives the stats in and of themselves.  Then the "Divine X" feat just gives a bonus above and beyond those.  

Of course, deciding whether is does that or not requires working on a model based on the stats we know and working backwards and seeing which ones work better.

Personally, I'll wait until the book comes out.  I'd rather not do that much work.  Still, I'd gladly read anyones attempt at this  

Glyfair of Glamis


----------



## Moulin Rogue (Mar 10, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Personally I think Divine Intervention on the mortal plane is akin to deploying nukes. Everybodies got them but they are rarely used as the retaliation would be devastating to all sides. *




But gods of madness/pure chaos might _like_ to start something like that? 

Maybe it could be tied in to the old "why don't demons and devils just invade the Prime worlds and take them over" question. Personally I am not a fan of the Blood War explanation they cooked up in 2e, though I haven't really tried to come up with anything better myself. Looking forward to your work, Krusty.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Mar 10, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by DarwinofMind
> I think you missunderstood me here, I was saying in 2e, I droped Avatars completely and gave stats to the gods.
> ...




Funny, in a game I played many years ago, the exact opposite was done - gods didn't have stats (they're amorphous beings) but they did have avatars which did have stats.  Most people who thought they interacted with a god really interacted with an avatar.

LightPhoenix


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 10, 2002)

Hi Akunin mate! 



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *Hmmm - judging from what we've seen of his stats so far,  you may very well be onto something.*




Thanks! 



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *We may or may not see a rule to that effect describing the "equivalency" of Divine Rank to Epic Levels, but as a rough estimate, it seems to work.*




I think so.



			
				Akunin said:
			
		

> *I think I'd be a little more conservative and say +4.  Epic characters can get really scary, but several abilities they can gain are negated by Herc's immunities. *




I concur, +4 may be more viable. Certainly at least +2 it would seem. 

One thing you would have to weigh up is that Divine Rank doesn't provide the trimmings that come with 'levelling up' (hp, BAB, saves, skills, feats etc.) beyond an initial boost and what can be chosen via Salient Divine Abilities.

*After initial boost to max hp, not necessarily failing saves on a '1' etc. BAB can be increased by choosing Divine Weapon Focus etc.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 10, 2002)

*Re: Once more unto the breach...*

Hi Glyfair mate! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *It could be if each "Divine Rank" gives the stats in and of themselves.  Then the "Divine X" feat just gives a bonus above and beyond those.*




But think about it. When they detail the Salient Divine Abilities they just put:

"Divine Weapon Focus"

Not, Divine Weapon Focus taken at Divine Rank +3, or Divine Weapon Specialisation taken at Divine Rank +4.

So obviously all 'Divine' (prefixed) abilities are based on the current Divine Rank.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Of course, deciding whether is does that or not requires working on a model based on the stats we know and working backwards and seeing which ones work better
> 
> Personally, I'll wait until the book comes out.  I'd rather not do that much work.  Still, I'd gladly read anyones attempt at this  *


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 10, 2002)

Hi there Moulin Rogue! 

(great name by the way - as I am sure others have told you!)



			
				Moulin Rogue said:
			
		

> *But gods of madness/pure chaos might like to start something like that?*




Exactly, which is likely the reason why they were usually imprisoned/bound/destroyed by other gods aeons ago.

Think of most of the Great Old Ones; think of Tharizdun; think of the Greek Titans etc.



			
				Moulin Rogue said:
			
		

> *Maybe it could be tied in to the old "why don't demons and devils just invade the Prime worlds and take them over" question. Personally I am not a fan of the Blood War explanation they cooked up in 2e, though I haven't really tried to come up with anything better myself.*




I wasn't a fan of the Blood War (in any sense), I think Gary Gygax painted a much better picture in his Gord the Rogue novels.



			
				Moulin Rogue said:
			
		

> *Looking forward to your work, Krusty. *




Thanks! I appreciate the interest! 

I may have an announcement in a day or two about a _slight_ change to the plans.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Mar 10, 2002)

Hi Light Phoenix! 



			
				LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> *Funny, in a game I played many years ago, the exact opposite was done - gods didn't have stats (they're amorphous beings) but they did have avatars which did have stats.  Most people who thought they interacted with a god really interacted with an avatar.*




That sort of cheapens Divinity. Its like a get out of jail free card.

Our DM always said: "any characters (including deities) that are unaffected by getting shot in the head with a tank shell are not worth playing!"

...he then introduced my deity character to the cyber punk setting for a few adventures and promptly shot the crap out of him.

The powered armour troops were notably tough, even though they were simply 4th-level and I was over 100th. When you have 5 such troops coming at you with auto-grenade launchers you learn humility and respect...the hard way!


----------



## S'mon (Mar 10, 2002)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Funny, in a game I played many years ago, the exact opposite was done - gods didn't have stats (they're amorphous beings) but they did have avatars which did have stats.  Most people who thought they interacted with a god really interacted with an avatar.
> 
> LightPhoenix *





For some campaign settings the idea that gods are amorphous beings/concepts who can _only_ manifest as avatars is a very nice one, it fits well into eg a Moorcockian universe where the gods battle for control of many planes, and the strength of the avatar depends on their strength on that plane.  It makes playing PC deities almost impossible though, ie it's not very compatible with U_K's WPS approach or with 'straight' Greek or Norse mythology (where the myths are literally true in-game).

Certainly it's better than the 2e approach of just declaring gods to omnipotent - if a god cannot manifest except through weak avatars then they may be _less_ powerful than a more 'human' deity.


----------



## S'mon (Mar 10, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Light Phoenix!
> 
> That sort of cheapens Divinity. Its like a get out of jail free card.
> 
> ...





LOL - S'mon stands up and says:

"AND I AM THAT GM!"



PC deities need to be kept on a human level - you can't really "play" a concept (at least, not in D&D - maybe in an abstract boardgame or similar you could).

If I were to use eg the Christian 'Holy Spirit' in game I would probably treat it as an avatar in this sense.  It's an interesting idea anyway.  Gods that are basically concepts rather than persons are unkillable except by destroying their worship base.  While U_K may not like this idea, Thrin  has already encountered and fought a similar entity - the Arasaka Corporation...


----------



## Berandor (Mar 10, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *PC deities need to be kept on a human level - you can't really "play" a concept (at least, not in D&D - maybe in an abstract boardgame or similar you could).
> *




Which really leaves only the question: Why PC deities? 

Anyway, keep up this thread! Now that I worked through the first nine pages in hindsight, I'd like to follow your exchanges for a few more days...

B


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 10, 2002)

Hi Berandor! 



			
				Berandor said:
			
		

> *Which really leaves only the question: Why PC deities? *




The reply being 'why not!?'

Variety is the spice of life after all!



			
				Berandor said:
			
		

> *Anyway, keep up this thread! Now that I worked through the first nine pages in hindsight, I'd like to follow your exchanges for a few more days... *


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## Berandor (Mar 10, 2002)

Yeah, UK, I agree.

I didn't meant that as argument, or anything... it's not my kind of stuff, but if only my kind of stuff was available the world would be...

...frickin' cool!

No, wait! I mean boring! 

Anyway, I think it's time for a heartily YMMV.

(I always wanted to post that - even though I have NO idea what YMMV means) 

Berandor


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## Darkness (Mar 10, 2002)

Berandor said:
			
		

> *
> ... YMMV.
> 
> (I always wanted to post that - even though I have NO idea what YMMV means)
> ...



YMMV= your mileage (sp?) may vary.


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## Glyfair (Mar 10, 2002)

*Re: Re: Once more unto the breach...*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *But think about it. When they detail the Salient Divine Abilities they just put:
> 
> "Divine Weapon Focus"
> 
> ...




I think either you missed my point, or I wasn't very good at expressing it.

When you create a normal character you don't list Weapon Focus at 4th level, or Weapon Focus at 10th level.  You just have Weapon Focus.  It gives you a +1 to all attack rolls whether you are 1st level or 20th level.  

Why wouldn't Divine abilities be similiar, i.e. Divine Weapon Focus gives you a +X to your attack rolls?  

I'm not saying you are wrong.  However, I think my method is more in line with the way the core system was designed to work, i.e. feats are all or nothing abilities.  It's obvious that these abilities are based on the feat system with so many of them just being "Divine" versions of normal feats.

Again, detailed analysis of the stats may show that one method is more obviously the case.  However, if they do go with your method, I think they are breaking one of the core assumptions of the system.

Glyfair of Glamis


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## Glyfair (Mar 10, 2002)

A few thoughts on Avatar's power levels. UK seems to be making the assumption that they have half the divine rank of the deity.  If this is true that means Hera has a Divine Rank of 16 or 17.

However, given all the information we can extrapolate from are Hera's avatar stats and Hermes avatar & base stats, it's possible that an avatar has a Divine Rank of 8 less than the base deity (which would make Hera's Divine Rank 16).  

A few notes on what we can probably infer of what Divine Rank is used for:

Skill bonuses (both avatars lose 8 from all skills and are 8 levels less than their Divine Rank or assumed Divine Rank).
Spell Resistance.
Saves.
Attack Bonus.
Caster level for spell-like abilities.
Various DC's and the range of Divine Aura.

Glyfair of Glamis


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 10, 2002)

Hi Berandor! 



			
				Berandor said:
			
		

> *Yeah, UK, I agree.
> 
> I didn't meant that as argument, or anything...*




Either way its okay mate! 



			
				Berandor said:
			
		

> *it's not my kind of stuff, but if only my kind of stuff was available the world would be...
> 
> ...frickin' cool!
> 
> ...


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## demajen (Mar 10, 2002)

Wow, i can't believe I've actually just spent half an hour reading this lot. Ouch my eyes hurt. Good specualtions guys. I've always loved reading about the gods in D&D (i got Legends and Lore and all 3 deities books for the Realms for 2nd. Ed) so I'm jolly well looking forward to Deities and Demigods. Also, the Epic-Level Handbook will finally allow me to convert some of my characters from 2nd. Ed (we had to put the campaign off, since there was no way to officially convert characters of over 20th level and still make them special).
   Keep up the good work guys.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 10, 2002)

*Re: Once more unto the breach...*

Hi Glyfair mate! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *I think either you missed my point, or I wasn't very good at expressing it.*




Both maybe even! 

I think I certainly failed to explain my counter argument properly.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *When you create a normal character you don't list Weapon Focus at 4th level, or Weapon Focus at 10th level.  You just have Weapon Focus.  It gives you a +1 to all attack rolls whether you are 1st level or 20th level.
> 
> Why wouldn't Divine abilities be similiar, i.e. Divine Weapon Focus gives you a +X to your attack rolls?*




Its certainly plausible.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *I'm not saying you are wrong. *




Thats okay mate, I might well be!? 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *However, I think my method is more in line with the way the core system was designed to work, i.e. feats are all or nothing abilities.*




Either way it will be interesting to see how things pan out! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *It's obvious that these abilities are based on the feat system with so many of them just being "Divine" versions of normal feats.*




There are certainly similarities.

Though would you say Supreme Initiative is equal to Improved Initiative!?



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Again, detailed analysis of the stats may show that one method is more obviously the case.*




Absolutely!

We may even find out when the next Dragon is released.

The obvious way to check would be if a deity & avatar both had Divine Weapon Focus; though we don't yet have such an example.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *However, if they do go with your method, I think they are breaking one of the core assumptions of the system.*




Remember that Feats and Salient Divine Abilities are not necessarily the same thing though!


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 10, 2002)

Hello again Glyfair mate! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *A few thoughts on Avatar's power levels. UK seems to be making the assumption that they have half the divine rank of the deity.  If this is true that means Hera has a Divine Rank of 16 or 17.
> 
> However, given all the information we can extrapolate from are Hera's avatar stats and Hermes avatar & base stats, it's possible that an avatar has a Divine Rank of 8 less than the base deity (which would make Hera's Divine Rank 16). *




I totally agree! 

In fact that actually makes more sense (and I would prefer); since choosing the 'Avatar' ability at Divine Rank 2 would seem somewhat weird.

I guess we must wait and see.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *A few notes on what we can probably infer of what Divine Rank is used for:
> 
> Skill bonuses (both avatars lose 8 from all skills and are 8 levels less than their Divine Rank or assumed Divine Rank).
> Spell Resistance.
> ...




Also 

- Damage Reduction 35 (+ Divine Rank)/+4
- Armour Class bonus.
- # of Salient Divine Abilities (Divine Rank +1)
- # uses for 

But what makes you think Saves or Attack Bonus are affected mate?

Going over things the Attack Bonus certainly seems like it fits though! (and nicely cancels the AC bonus)

Incidently is Hercules club '+5'?


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 10, 2002)

Hi demajen! 



			
				demajen said:
			
		

> *Wow, i can't believe I've actually just spent half an hour reading this lot. Ouch my eyes hurt.*








			
				demajen said:
			
		

> *Good specualtions guys.*




Were getting there slowly but surely! 



			
				demajen said:
			
		

> *I've always loved reading about the gods in D&D (i got Legends and Lore and all 3 deities books for the Realms for 2nd. Ed) so I'm jolly well looking forward to Deities and Demigods.*




Legends & Lore (1st Ed.) is my favourite book of all time!

At one point I think I had it memorised almost _verbatim_, I remember S'mon testing me at random on stuff in the book one time

"Freys Symbol?"..."that would be an Ice Blue Two-Handed Sword" 



			
				demajen said:
			
		

> *Also, the Epic-Level Handbook will finally allow me to convert some of my characters from 2nd. Ed (we had to put the campaign off, since there was no way to officially convert characters of over 20th level and still make them special).*




I am looking forward to Call of Cthulhu; Deities & Demigods; Faiths & Pantheons; Epic Level Handbook; Monster Manual 2...and a certain other book! 



			
				demajen said:
			
		

> *Keep up the good work guys. *




Find a job you like and you'll never need to work a day in your life!


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## Olive (Mar 11, 2002)

Personally I loved Legends and lore (1e). But then i read it again, a month or so ago...and you know what? it sucks! It hardly tells you anything about what the gods actually represent or anything else...it's basically just stats and combat tactics.

which is fine, and has it's place, but the FR demihuman deities book from 2e (and maybe the human deities book as well) was much better in terms of making usable deities in your average campaign. so while i am pro stats for deities and avatars, i want descriptions of the beliefs and dogmas and everything else too! if it ends up like legend and lore ie a monster manual full of gods, then i won't buy it...

of course it probably won't...


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## Glyfair (Mar 11, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Though would you say Supreme Initiative is equal to Improved Initiative!?  *




I don't think it is.  Based on Hermes example, I think it is what allows him to always go first.  I expect there to be strong prerequisites on this.  You wouldn't want to have a battle where several deities have this in the same battle (in perhaps a War of the Gods type campaign/scenario).

Glyfair of Glamis


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## Glyfair (Mar 11, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But what makes you think Saves or Attack Bonus are affected mate?
> 
> ...




Actually I went over Hermes' avatar's stats and compared them to his normal stats.  These all dropped by exactly eight.  Some of them could be coincidence, but I doubt it.

Yeah, it's a +5 greatclub.  He also has a +5 mighty distance composite longbow (+4 Str Bonus).  

I wonder what his Salient Divine Ability "Indomitable Strength" does.  Anyone want to break this down?  His +5 greatclub does 1d10+51/19-20.  He has a 55 Str, Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Divine Weapon Specialization (greatclub) and Improved Critical (greatclub).  Might it be that it doubles your Str modifier? It certainly might be something that doesn't do anything to damage.   The only thing I get from this is that I don't want to be hit by his greatclub (especially with his attack combination of +67/+62/+57/+52). 

Another thing for the math geniuses.  When he is Divine Raging his attack switches to +72/+67/+62/+57 melee (1d10+56/19-20), with a Str of 65.  When he can rage 5 times/day for 1 hour at a time, I really wouldn't want to be around for this.



Glyfair of Glamis


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## Gez (Mar 11, 2002)

My take on Supreme Initiative:

A character with SI always goes first, without rolling initiative. When several characters with SI are involved in the same scene, all characters with it act before all character without, but normal initiative rolls are required to determine the order among the "suprem initiators" and among the "normal initiators".


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## S'mon (Mar 11, 2002)

Olive said:
			
		

> *Personally I loved Legends and lore (1e). But then i read it again, a month or so ago...and you know what? it sucks! It hardly tells you anything about what the gods actually represent or anything else...it's basically just stats and combat tactics.
> 
> which is fine, and has it's place, but the FR demihuman deities book from 2e (and maybe the human deities book as well) was much better in terms of making usable deities in your average campaign. so while i am pro stats for deities and avatars, i want descriptions of the beliefs and dogmas and everything else too! if it ends up like legend and lore ie a monster manual full of gods, then i won't buy it...
> 
> of course it probably won't... *




1e L&L is a bit strange in that its stated purpose is to facilitate use of gods in a campaign as myths & beings to worship, yet its actual presentation facilitates more direct interaction with gods - which IMO (and U_K's opinion) is a good thing - if you're playing in a high-level Greek or Norse setting gods _should_ be treated a lot like regular NPCs IMO.  Just because it doesn't fit with Judaeo-Christian ideas of deity doesn't mean its wrong for a game setting based on myths where heroes _do_ fight and defeat gods (eg Diomedes defeat of Ares in the Iliad).


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 11, 2002)

Hi Olive! 



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> *The FR demihuman deities book from 2e (and maybe the human deities book as well) was much better in terms of making usable deities in your average campaign. so while i am pro stats for deities and avatars, i want descriptions of the beliefs and dogmas and everything else too! if it ends up like legend and lore ie a monster manual full of gods, then i won't buy it...
> 
> of course it probably won't... *




I think all the deities have a full column (?) devoted to belief/dogma/worshippers etc. (from a total of 3 columns; which includes illustration)

Is that a fair assessment Glyfair mate!?


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 11, 2002)

Hi Glyfair mate! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *I don't think it is.*




Exactly my point.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Based on Hermes example, I think it is what allows him to always go first. *




Absolutely.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *I expect there to be strong prerequisites on this. *




Possibly? Perhaps the only prerequisite is Divine Rank(s)?



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *You wouldn't want to have a battle where several deities have this in the same battle (in perhaps a War of the Gods type campaign/scenario). *




I think it would be easily determined...

Hey Gez mate! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *My take on Supreme Initiative:
> 
> A character with SI always goes first, without rolling initiative. When several characters with SI are involved in the same scene, all characters with it act before all character without, but normal initiative rolls are required to determine the order among the "suprem initiators" and among the "normal initiators".*




...that would be how I perceive it as well.


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## Glyfair (Mar 11, 2002)

I don't think several combatants having Supreme Initiative would be hard to adjudicate.  You could have them all roll initiative among themselves, or just have them all go at the same time (which would be my choice).  It still feels like an ability that should be somewhat unique.  

The only gods I can think of that would have it would be Hermes and Mercury (if you treat the similiar pantheons as seperate).  Among mythological beings I would only give it to "Thought" from Norse mythology.  There may be several others (my knowledge of mythology is far from exhaustive), but I think it would be very rare.

The only place I would consider it common would be the comic books.  DC Comics would probably have a host of characters with it.  

Glyfair of Glamis


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 11, 2002)

Hello again mate! 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *Actually I went over Hermes' avatar's stats and compared them to his normal stats.  These all dropped by exactly eight.  Some of them could be coincidence, but I doubt it.
> 
> Yeah, it's a +5 greatclub.  He also has a +5 mighty distance composite longbow (+4 Str Bonus).
> 
> His +5 greatclub does 1d10+51/19-20.  He has a 55 Str, Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Divine Weapon Specialization (greatclub) and Improved Critical (greatclub).  Might it be that it doubles your Str modifier? It certainly might be something that doesn't do anything to damage.*




Okay...

BAB:

Barbarian = +20
Fighter = +10 (Epic)
Strength = +22
Divine = +5
Club = +5

...Divine Weapon Focus = +5 (this may mean that Divine Weapon Focus 'replaces' Weapon Focus, or confirm Glyfairs theory that it is a set number eg. +4?)

Total: +67

Damage:

Strength = +22 (+33 used two-handed)
Club = +5
Divine = +5 (?)

...Divine Weapon Specialisation = +8 (?) (again this may confirm Glyfairs theory, Divine Weapon Spec. could deliver a set +8: double Divine Weapon Focus' +4)

*Or perhaps actually Divine Weapon Focus is +3 and stacks with Weapon Focus and Divine Weapon Specialisation is +6 and stacks with Weapon Specialisation!?*



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *I wonder what his Salient Divine Ability "Indomitable Strength" does.  Anyone want to break this down?*




My guess is that it adds something like +20 to Strength and is only available to Gods of Strength.

Hermes has a similar ability that adds +20 (or so) to Dexterity. (Not sure if this is Divine Celerity? That might be more to do with his movement speed?)



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> *The only thing I get from this is that I don't want to be hit by his greatclub (especially with his attack combination of +67/+62/+57/+52).
> 
> Another thing for the math geniuses.  When he is Divine Raging his attack switches to +72/+67/+62/+57 melee (1d10+56/19-20), with a Str of 65.  When he can rage 5 times/day for 1 hour at a time, I really wouldn't want to be around for this. *




With a +10 increase to Strength when raging (+5 bonus); then using a weapon two-handed Hercules should deal 1d10+58...shouldn't he!?

Either way Hercules is just a little pussycat!


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## Glyfair (Mar 11, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Or perhaps actually Divine Weapon Focus is +3 and stacks with Weapon Focus and Divine Weapon Specialisation is +6 and stacks with Weapon Specialisation!?
> *




This would be my bet.  I picture the "Divine" abilities stacking with feats.  It just makes the paperwork easier.

Glyfair of Glamis


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## Tarril Wolfeye (Mar 11, 2002)

Hi all!
I think I just found a third possibility of an avatar's Divine Rank:

Demigod: 5 (no avatar)
Lesser Diety: 6
Intermediate Diety: 7
Greater Diety: 8

That matches the information we have and would explain why Demigods don't have an avatar.

Well.. what do you think?


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 11, 2002)

Tarril Wolfeye said:
			
		

> *Hi all!*




Hi there! 



			
				Tarril Wolfeye said:
			
		

> *I think I just found a third possibility of an avatar's Divine Rank:
> 
> Demigod: 5 (no avatar)
> Lesser Diety: 6
> ...




Possibly!? But if you could be a Lesser God at Divine Rank 6 then you would effectively be creating a duplicate of yourself, so its possible, but perhaps unlikely!?

That is, assuming:

Quasi-deity/Hero-deity = Divine Rank 0
Demideity = Divine Ranks 1-5
Lesser deity = Divine Ranks 6-10
Intermediate deity = Divine Ranks 11-15
Greater deity = Divine Ranks 16-20
Uber-deity = Divine Ranks 21+(?)

Personally I like the -8 Divine Rank theory suggested by Glyfair the best so far.


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## Glyfair (Mar 11, 2002)

We know Hermes is a DR 15 and a Lesser Deity, Hercules is a DR 5 and a Demigod and Hera a presumbed DR 16 and a Greater Deity.

Here is my take
DR 0:  Unknown - could be Demigod or maybe Quasi-deity
DR 1-5 Demigod
DR 6-10 Lesser Deity
DR 11-15 Intermediate Deity
DR 16-20 Greater Deity

I don't want to speculate on Epic Levels of Divine Rank  

<Edit>  Hmmm...shows how tired I am.  I completely missed UK's message that I'm basically reproducing.  Still, it seems most likely.

Glyfair of Glamis


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 11, 2002)

In case you haven't heard today, Dragon #294 is out.

It is an Epic inspired issue.

Greyhawk deity stats for Iuz; Pholtus; Rao and the big girl himself *THARIZDUN*!

Suffice to say, I fully expect our American friends to get on it and scoop the info! 

The way WotC are playing with themselves at the moment 'we' in the UK will have to wait at least a month to see this (#293 isn't out here yet!) issue!


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## Darkness (Mar 12, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *The way WotC are playing with themselves at the moment 'we' in the UK will have to wait at least a month to see this (#293 isn't out here yet!) issue! *



Same thing here in Austria.  Also, Dungeon #91 isn't available here yet, either...


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## Golden age Superhero (Apr 15, 2014)

I remember that Hercules was described  being dangerous to adventure because of his bad temper.


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