# The Balrog = Balor or Pit Fiend?



## The Serge (Aug 6, 2002)

Okay.  I know that the original Balor was essentially the Balrog from LotR.  However, after seeing the movie, I'm convinced that it looks more like a Pit Fiend and behaves like a Balor.

What do you folks think?  What does a Balor look like?  What does a Pit Fiend look like?  


Why am I asking?  'Cause I'm giddy about LotR!!!!!!


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 6, 2002)

The old 1e Monster Manual showed the Balor (Type VI Demon back then) and the Pit Fiend both as winged humanoid demons ("demons" in a generic way; I know the Pit Fiend's a devil). Well, sorta humanoid. The Balor looked more human than the Pit Fiend, but not by much. I see no problem with the Balor looking like the Balrog in LotR the movie. 

Doesn't the Balrog from the movie kinda look like what Orcus looks like, at least in a trimmed-down way? It reminded me of Orcus, at least.


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## Storminator (Aug 6, 2002)

According to the Encyclopedia Arda, balrogs have no wings.

The Balor has the fire and darkness powers that say balrog. But the colonel is right, in the 1e MM they both looked the part.

PS


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## Femerus the Gnecro (Aug 6, 2002)

I've never heard of the "encyclopedia arda" but I'm almost totally certain that the Tolkien Bestiary says that Balrogs DO have wings... and they take their information from the books!  

I might be mistaken though.  I'm at work so I can't check.  

However, considering the amount of accuracy inherant in the movie, and the sheer enormity of fan art depicting balrog's with wings, I'd be inclined to say that Balrogs are, in fact, winged.

-F

edit:  Actually, I was wrong about the Tolkien Bestiary.  Doesn't mention wings anywhere.


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## Suldulin (Aug 6, 2002)

I've believe they've wings,  but they can't use them to fly, I think they're mostly for intimidation factor if anything


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## Storminator (Aug 6, 2002)

The Encyclopedia of Arda is a web based tolkien encyclopedia. http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

Go to the entry for Balrogs and they have the whole topic laid out. I've spent the last 2 decades believing in balrog wings, but they've pretty well convinced me they don't exist.

I've been looking over my FotR book, and I can't find anything that says "balrogs have wings."

PS


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## The Serge (Aug 6, 2002)

There's a passage that states that the shadows that extend from the Balrog as it chases the Fellowship stretched across the passage like wings.  It's a rather nebulous statement.  Considering that the creature fell and didn't attempt to fly suggests to me that it had wing-like "appendages", nothing more.


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## Klaus (Aug 6, 2002)

*Balor vs. Pit Fiend*

I did both of these fiends for Counter Pack 1: Demons & Devils. so I did some thinking on the way each looked.

Whenever a government is said to be tyrannical, oppressive and cruel, it's labeled "draconic". And Tiamat lairs in the Hells. So I decided to give my devils a "draconic" appearance, as in larger scales, pronounced horns, big teeth and the like.

That said, demons are more prone to tempting humans with immediate pleasures and fulfilments (as mentioned in Planescape), while devils tend toward intellectual temptation.

So I made demons look more human.

I gave the Balor a face closer to that of Darkness in "Legend". Y'know, strong, big horns, pointy chin and ears, red skin.

And I gave the pit fiend basically its draconic MM appearance, but with the "fire within" look of LotR's Balrog.

To me, the Balrog is an advanced Balor (Gargantuan, at least), with the appearance of a Pit Fiend. 

But that's just me.


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## Umbran (Aug 7, 2002)

Storminator said:
			
		

> *Go to the entry for Balrogs and they have the whole topic laid out. I've spent the last 2 decades believing in balrog wings, but they've pretty well convinced me they don't exist.
> *




I just read that entry, and Ididn't come out with the same impression.  In fact, I came out with a very simple conclusion...

Tolkien is not clear on the subject.  

Gasp!  Horror of horrors!  The master of heroic fantasy isn't clear on a minor detail!  Whatever shall we do!

I'm pretty sure he never says how many toes a dwarf has, either, but we manage to live with that


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## TheStiegler (Aug 7, 2002)

> Whenever a government is said to be tyrannical, oppressive and cruel, it's labeled "draconic".




This is because the Greek philosopher Draco made his name based on his writings of govermental philosophy.  And it's Draconian, not Draconic.

You certainly have the right to call a govenment draconic...but that means that it's big, sleeps a lot and hordes money.

Not that that means devils shouldn't look draconic.  And I am sure that a devil would be quite Draconian.


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## Welverin (Aug 7, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *There's a passage that states that the shadows that extend from the Balrog as it chases the Fellowship stretched across the passage like wings.  It's a rather nebulous statement.*




That one is, but as was pointed out to me a while ago two paragraphs later is one that isn't.

"The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew.  It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm."

This is from FotR book 2, chapter 5 (page number is different between the papder back and hard cover copies I looked at).


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## Umbran (Aug 7, 2002)

Yes, Welverin.  If you read the article mentioned by The Serge, that remains nebulous...

The first statement is that it has something "like wings" which could be no more than tricks of smoke and shadow - merely an image, not a physical presence.  Your quote may then be taken as a statement that it has actual wings, or merely a continuation about those "smoke and shadow" wings that aren't really there.

Maybe Tolkien was using a similie, and maybe he wasn't.  Only he knows for sure, and he's dead.  Let's not lose sleep over it, okay folks?


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## Welverin (Aug 8, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *Yes, Welverin.  If you read the article mentioned by The Serge, that remains nebulous...
> 
> The first statement is that it has something "like wings" which could be no more than tricks of smoke and shadow - merely an image, not a physical presence.  Your quote may then be taken as a statement that it has actual wings, or merely a continuation about those "smoke and shadow" wings that aren't really there.
> 
> Maybe Tolkien was using a similie, and maybe he wasn't.  Only he knows for sure, and he's dead.  Let's not lose sleep over it, okay folks? *




I did go read. As is pointed out if you just take one statement on it's own it's rather clear cut, consider both and that's when it really gets nebulous.


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