# Transform Troubles.



## Kemrain (May 19, 2005)

Having read through EoMr, I've discovered that there are some abilities that no spell list explicitly grants. If I want Fast Healing I can cast a Heal that restores 1d6 every round, but that isn't the same as actual Fast Healing. If I want Regenerate, I'm out of luck, even though I could regenerate lost parts with the Heal lists.

But what if I want the actual Fast Healing or Regeneration abilities? for these I have Transform! This is great, but, what if I only want the Regeneration ability, not to be a Troll? What if I want to have Fast Healing without Transform Undead? Which lists do I need to take to gain these abilities? How much MP should they cost? Transform would be a more fair list if it had guidelines like this, and wasn't left merely to creature type. I mean, should I be able to fly with Transform Humanoid? There are Winged Elves, so what's to keep me from tacking their wings on my human body? Shouldn't I need to take a different list to get abilities like this?

I'm just not sure what spell lists I should take to get certain effects, and I'm fairly confidentthat some Transform lists are simply much better than others in terms of what you can accomplish with them. (Transform Outsider seems a little overpowered, to me.)

- Kemrain the Transformed.


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## Primitive Screwhead (May 19, 2005)

*Transform.. and standardization*

I agree that the Transform list is a bit odd... but its still pretty good. Perhaps we should vote for a TEOM: Transform suppliment that gets into the weeds on this subject 

  As to the abilities, I would stick to using Creature types and work a reduced CR if you are only taking some of the abilities. But leaving the Creature in for roleplaying fodder.

 From a character standpoint, I dont know about 'Fast Healing', but I know that Trolls wounds heal up quick. So, being a Transformist Mage, I twiddle with a Transform: Troll spell until I get only the peices of Troll that I want... well, mostly only. Perhaps a weird greenish tint to the skin or an elongated nose.. 

 The abilities should be limited to those the character would know about, either from a Knowledge skill or personal experience. This can tone down the Outsider list a bit, if you don't know what an Archon is, you can''t be one.

 When I played a Transformist, I kept a roster of creature types I had 'learned', as well as specific disguises {I was part Rogue  } Being a nice player, and not wanting to freak the DM who hadn't bothered to read TEOM before letting me play, I kept it pretty normal.
 Even as such, my 'combat' forms were nasty. The best was a Large Monstrous Scorpian, which fit quite nicely into the largest Darkness spell I could do. Surprise round in that form was deadly indeed!

Anyway.. who votes for a detailed Transform booklet after we get EOM: Modern/skills? 
  .. we should probably start working on it here anyway... I have an EOM Druid that will soon be doing the WildShape thing.


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## Kemrain (May 19, 2005)

I'd love to see Transform get it's own book. Transform and Summon, in my opinion, need the most work, because they rely on the CR system. Having modded the gamesystem, I don't have much of a reference for this anymore, and have to play everything by ear. I'd love to see guidelines that describe "X abilities should cost Y MP without Z drawbacks, and without they cost A MP."

I'm just not sure the creature types thing works without some guidelines. Especially since, if I only have Transform Outsider, I can give myself pretty much any ability in the book, because there are so many damn outsiders. If Regeneration could be gained by becoming a Troll or a Pit Fiend, but you could just start regenerating with Transform Giant, without becoming a Troll, Transform Giant would have some utility over Transform Outsider.. Each of the lists should have viability, and none should be a no-brainer decision.

- Kemrain the Outsider.


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## Primitive Screwhead (May 20, 2005)

*Draft thoughts..*

Been thinking about this for a bit, and came up with the following concept:

Partial Transform, MP cost based on type.
  Benefit, you gain the type of the creature {therefore its Traits} and can select, for additional MP, abilities common to that type of creature.
 {some Types cost more than others due to versatility or power equivilent}
Your physical appearance alters noticably in reflection of the type chosen and the abilities selected.


Giant: Cost 1MP
  STR Increase as Infuse:Earth chart
  Enlarge, as table for getting bigger
  Regenerate +1 mp per level of Regen

Dragon: Cost 3MP
  Breath Weapon +2 MP per age category
   {your size defines the area of the attack}
    {example, 5MP to gain Black Dragons Breath Attack grants a medium caster a 60' line of acid that deals 2d4 points of damage that can be used once every 1d4 rounds.  This is roughly equivilent to a 6MP Enduring Evoke:Acid }
  Dragon Flight.  +3 MP per 50' of Fly speed up to 200


etc...

 This would have to be a major project in balancing the various aspects so that Transform does not trump the other lists. One of the advantages of using Transform is that you can avoid using multiple lists to gain similar effects.

{the MP costs above are literally off the top of my head....  }


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## Verequus (May 21, 2005)

RW, this cries for the integration of Upper-Krust's CR-system: Most questions should be answered by this. And if not, then this can be remedied.


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## astriemer (May 21, 2005)

Primitive Screwhead said:
			
		

> Been thinking about this for a bit, and came up with the following concept:
> 
> Partial Transform, MP cost based on type.
> Benefit, you gain the type of the creature {therefore its Traits} and can select, for additional MP, abilities common to that type of creature.
> ...




As a general guideline, it should probably be at least 2 MP more expensive to do something using transform than the more appropriate list. So getting wings that give you perfect flight I would think would cost at least 8 MP (since you could do it with 6 MP using Move Air).

Actually, as I'm thinking about it, perhaps it should be 4 MP more expensive along the lines of the cost increase using Transform for creatures with the more powerful abiliites.

I agree that some guidelines, particularly for the common special abilites for creatures (from the Types, Subtypes, and Special Abilities part of the SRD...ability score loss, alternate form, air subtype, fast healing, regeneration, etc.) would be helpful.


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## Primitive Screwhead (May 22, 2005)

*Upper Krust..*

I have not seen his CR system, and didn't find it on the website in your sig.. any links for me?


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## Verequus (May 22, 2005)

In its final variant v6, this system is supposed to be included in the Immortal's Handbook, which has been delayed over months (but it is coming). The last open version is v4, the v5 has some minor errors, which makes this document a request-only - but luckily, I can send it to you. What's your email address? Oh, the system is also in included Grim Tales, and BAG made it available with an excelsheet at RPGnow. In case, you want to pay for it.

Here is a useful link to all threads regarding the IH - if you want to read more of it.


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## Primitive Screwhead (May 22, 2005)

*Email for now..*

If I like what I see, I am quite willing to support with $$ 

linte_draug at comcast dot net

Thanks!


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## Verequus (May 22, 2005)

Oops, I forgot one file to include and with my bad connection I can't send it now! Please bear with me until I succeed to set this off.


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## Primitive Screwhead (May 23, 2005)

*CR file..*

I got it, thanks!  The quick read over while it prints looks like this will be a good system to base the Transform from, as long as Upper Crust doesn't mind the flattery 

 I will do some reading and some numbers and get back to y'all


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## Primitive Screwhead (May 31, 2005)

*Transform..*

Okay, I spent some time this last weekend perusing Upper Crust's CR system, and I think it can be used as a good base for doing partial transforms as is.
 His systems CR's are higher than Core, which works well for our purposes anyway.

====THIS IS A DRAFT CONCEPT!==== Just looking for a little steering before I get too far down this road. 

 What I am looking at doing is setting up enhancements for each [Creature] along the lines of the following. You need to purchase the 'Traits' before you can buy additional enhancements. You can only do a partial transform of one type.

 A key principle I am considering is using CL as a base to calculate various aspects. Using the natural weapon damage table from UC's system, the average damage is the minimum CL for creating an effect of that size.

[Giant] 
 - Traits 1MP
 - Powerful Build {per Half-Giant} 
 - Regeneration
 ....Reduction of this cost by 1MP for each element that can bypass it
 - Natural Attack 
 ....Rend, requires 2 Claw attacks, 1MP
 - Natural Armor {Skin and/or Fur}


====
Enhancements:
 Natural Attack Base 1MP
..One of your limbs transforms into a natural weapon. It deals damage based on your CL, {see Upper Crusts table for weapon damage}
....+1MP for Claw, weapon is considered one size bigger for damage.

 Natural Armor
  Skin 1MP, grants 1 + 1/8th CL
  Fur/Bone, 2 MP, Grants 2 + 1/4 CL
  Scales, 3MP, grants 3 + 1/2CL
  Carapace, 4 MP, grants 4 + CL. Treated as wearing medium armor.
  Construct/Stoneskin, 5MP, grants 5 + CL. 

etc..
  this is mainly from my head as I have yet to write much down.

What do y'all think about using CL in this manner?
 Each [Creature] type would have access to different enhancements, an would have a higher cost based on breadth of capabilities.

We would need to codify the various enhancements that characters would tend to use.

In a semi related note, MOVE [AIR].. what manueverability rating does this grant?
..I ask because with Transform [Elemental-air] you get a Perfect rating. With other modes of flight, your rating will be based on your size {starting at Perfect for Tiny and stepping down a rating every 2 sizes larger} Trying to ensure that Transform [Outsider] wont step on the Move [AIR] too much 

Thanks!.. and now its time for me to get back to work..I mena the stuff I get paid for 

BTW, Welcome Back RW, hope your weekend off was enjoyable!


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## Verequus (May 31, 2005)

Primitive Screwhead said:
			
		

> Okay, I spent some time this last weekend perusing Upper Crust's CR system, and I think it can be used as a good base for doing partial transforms as is. His systems CR's are higher than Core, which works well for our purposes anyway.




 Actually, his nick is Upper_Krust, with a 'k', after Krusty, The Clown. Also is his CR also ECL for the creature, which is on average for the monsters 1.5 times higher than the WotC CR - for dragons and ELH creatures even 2 times higher.



> ====THIS IS A DRAFT CONCEPT!==== Just looking for a little steering before I get too far down this road.
> 
> What I am looking at doing is setting up enhancements for each [Creature] along the lines of the following. You need to purchase the 'Traits' before you can buy additional enhancements. You can only do a partial transform of one type.
> 
> A key principle I am considering is using CL as a base to calculate various aspects. Using the natural weapon damage table from UK's system, the average damage is the minimum CL for creating an effect of that size.




Could you give some examples? Otherwise it is a bit difficult to understand, what you are after. But some questions:

-Are the traits going to cost always 1 MP? If not, how big is going the CR modifier to warrant a higher cost?
-In general, what is the cost relationship between the CR modifier and the required MP? +1 CR = 1 MP? Wouldn't it be more simple to say: "Pick anything from the list and pay the cost."?
-CL is Caster Level, right? Why are you going to scale the spells with the caster level? An important aspect of EoMR is, that the spells are independent from the caster level, which would you destroy with this approach. A simple "pay X MP and get these benefits" falls into this pattern.



> [Giant]
> - Traits 1MP
> - Powerful Build {per Half-Giant}
> - Regeneration
> ...




 Giant type has regeneration, natural attacks and natural armor? Not after my SRD. Or are these only examples?



> ====
> Enhancements:
> Natural Attack Base 1MP
> ..One of your limbs transforms into a natural weapon. It deals damage based on your CL, {see Upper Crusts table for weapon damage}
> ....+1MP for Claw, weapon is considered one size bigger for damage.




 Why only one arm and not both?



> Natural Armor
> Skin 1MP, grants 1 + 1/8th CL
> Fur/Bone, 2 MP, Grants 2 + 1/4 CL
> Scales, 3MP, grants 3 + 1/2CL
> ...




 If we would use my suggestion, this wouldn't seem necessary.



> In a semi related note, MOVE [AIR].. what manueverability rating does this grant?




 Look at the appropriate table in the Move Air section - there are the ratings listed with the required MPs.



> ..I ask because with Transform [Elemental-air] you get a Perfect rating. With other modes of flight, your rating will be based on your size {starting at Perfect for Tiny and stepping down a rating every 2 sizes larger} Trying to ensure that Transform [Outsider] wont step on the Move [AIR] too much




 I think, that with so many traits and abilities overlapping will always happen. Take _Water Breathing_ as example - you can gain it through Move Water or through Transform Animal (a fish). The costs should be similar with partial transforms, because the high costs will be with full transformations due to the high CRs.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Jun 1, 2005)

*Posting from work *

Thats what happens when I try to post from work without any of the paperwork handy  I hope UK doesn't mind the typo!

 Yes, +1CR = +1MP.
I am looking at Caster Level {CL} for partial transforms based on two things, in game it reflects the casters ability to better merge his/her own form with aspects of a new one, and provides Transform an interesting difference from using Evoke to create the mechanical aspects of damage.

The Traits are per UK's page 3, ranging from 0 MP {Animal} to 2.5 MP {Ooze}. Giant is actually a +0, the only Trait they would gain is Darkvision.
The Enhancements poorly listed in my last post are examples. The MP cost of those Enhancements are a 'dammit, what did I write down on Saturday night for this?' 

Two reasons for wanting to codify a list instead of just saying "Use UK's CR":
A] UK's system is atomized to such a degree that the difference between gaining Flight {Average} and Flight {Perfect} is 0.4 points. Given a rounding up of MP costs, why would a player ever chose Flight {Average}?
B] Each list of Enhancements can be tailored to the representative abilities of a forms type. In this manner, we can provide a semblence of balance between lists. Otherwize, why take anything other than Transform [Outsider] and [Dragon]? These two lists would provide virtually every option available.

Example.. ..um.. please remember this is still in draft form 
Melee Monster Magic, as cast by a 6th level caster:
 6MP Transform [Giant]
    You gain two natural Claw attacks that are oversized and the Rend ability with those Claws. These Claws deal 2D6+Str Mod in damage. {Size Huge}
You also gain 3 points of Natural Armor. {2 + 1/4 of 6}
You also gain Darkvision {60'} and Giant Blood.

===And like I said, I am posting this before I get too far down this path and want to know if the concept of using CL like this should be abandoned.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 1, 2005)

Honestly, Transform magic in EOM has drained my brain every time I tried to work on it.  If someone else wants to officially work on a project for a Transform-focused EOM book, E.N. Publishing would gladly consider publishing it.

Personally, though, I'd encourage keeping the flavor and the mechanics a bit more separate.  Transform should mostly be for changing shape of creatures and objects.  If you want fast healing or regeneration, it should be a Heal spell.  If you want stronger weapons, it should probably be an infuse spell.  The same way that you cannot 'transform' the blood in a person's veins into acid (that would be an Evoke spell, not Transform), you shouldn't be able to use Transform to do the job of other spell lists.


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## Verequus (Jun 1, 2005)

Primitive Screwhead:

The problem with using CL is, that isn't used much in EoMR for adjustments of spell effects. The Dispel Magic DC for a spell is dependent from CL (but not the spell itself), the Ritual Magic (which is somewhat strange, because with the MP limit = HD rule you can cast normal spells with more MP reliable than with Ritual Magic, if your caster level lacks) and... Hmm, I think there were other uses... Practically, the power of spell is measured in its used MP - how do you get enough MP and a MP limit high enough to cast the spell is irrelevant, so I'm against the use of CL in this case.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Personally, though, I'd encourage keeping the flavor and the mechanics a bit more separate. Transform should mostly be for changing shape of creatures and objects. If you want fast healing or regeneration, it should be a Heal spell. If you want stronger weapons, it should probably be an infuse spell. The same way that you cannot 'transform' the blood in a person's veins into acid (that would be an Evoke spell, not Transform), you shouldn't be able to use Transform to do the job of other spell lists.




With other words, partial transforming is for specialized spell lists, but full transformation along with the use of the entire CR is for Transform [Creature]? I like that idea - it gives the old lists new options. The only thing one needs to determine is then, how to translate the given range of WotC-CRs into UK-CRs - enhancements like Strong Creature aren't necessary, because the costs of those enhancements is already factored in. In this view, "1 MP = +1 UK-CR" is feasible.


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## astriemer (Jun 1, 2005)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Primitive Screwhead:
> 
> The problem with using CL is, that isn't used much in EoMR for adjustments of spell effects. The Dispel Magic DC for a spell is dependent from CL (but not the spell itself), the Ritual Magic (which is somewhat strange, because with the MP limit = HD rule you can cast normal spells with more MP reliable than with Ritual Magic, if your caster level lacks) and... Hmm, I think there were other uses... Practically, the power of spell is measured in its used MP - how do you get enough MP and a MP limit high enough to cast the spell is irrelevant, so I'm against the use of CL in this case.
> 
> ...




I also am in favor of using Transform for shape altering and full transformation and using the other spell lists for partial transform effects. I also like the cleanness of using the UK-CR to avoid having to guess what a creature's CR is for Creature Form (formerly Strong Creature) or when trying to figure whether they need the Strong Defenses enhancement.

Does this system (UK-CR) work for applying just a creature type by itself? For example, if I just want to assume the outsider creature type, can I use UK-CR?

My other question/statement with this option is that there are some abilities that aren't clearly covered by other spell lists. For example, how do I get a claw, wing, tail attacks for example (Create Nature elemental damage enhancement on my fist perhaps), or constriction, improved grab, pounce, powerful charge, rake, regeneration (fast healing is a modified form of enduring curing, but what converts normal damage to subdual), scent (though RW indicated that it could be acquired with scry special sense), swallow whole, or trample?


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