# Beholders & Illithids and their "thralls"; how does that work out?



## Felon (Mar 13, 2004)

Been reading through the FR _Underdark_ book recently, and I keep coming across numerous references to beholders and mind flayers lording over their slaves, having used their special abilities to create utterly loyal thralls that would glady die for their masters. I've wondered before about how this is supposed to work. Has has anyone else? The _charm_ effects that these monsters use don't actually subjugate their targets, after all. As the DMG states, charming someone makes them your friend, not your flunky. 

Considering that both beholders and illithids tend to loathe all other creatures, it's hard to imagine them making politie requests and treating their subjects like peers. I'd expect them to be quite openly abusive, and while I know that won't necessarily break the charm, the charm effect does mean that the subject will be comfortable telling his "dear friend" to take it easy and not to be such a bossy jerk all the time (which, of course, gets the thrall killded in short order). So, how does this master/slave dynamic actually work out the way you see it?


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## reiella (Mar 13, 2004)

Either more conventional means, such as Threat of Mind Being Eatten.

Or, in a particularly valuable/useful slave, the illithid may actually use Thrall if they have a telepath with sufficent levels/power gem.


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## Aluvial (Mar 13, 2004)

I have often wondered the same thing, and basically had to change the rules for these creatures.  

They should be able to mentally compel their slaves to do their bidding, all of the charm rules prevent this, so you just have to wing it.  

I think that the Illithid especially should have a special power for this, so in my game I gave them one.

I use the same Dominate saving throw, but once your hooked, your hooked.  In my version, you pick 4 things from a list of 10 or 12 items, things that would give you another save.  Things like jumping off a cliff or falling on your sword give you another save.  If you fail, too bad.

For the PC, if you are captured, it is usually short term for the battle, the death of the master releases the slave.  If the flayer manages to escape with the PC in this case, then its back to the drawing board for the player, I usually don't bother role-playing it out. 

Aluvial


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## Felon (Mar 13, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> Either more conventional means, such as Threat of Mind Being Eatten.




Like I said, the thralls aren't merely bullied into submission. They're devoted, and that's supposedly accomplished through the monster's ability to _charm monster_ at will. 



			
				Aluvial said:
			
		

> I have often wondered the same thing, and basically had to change the rules for these creatures. They should be able to mentally compel their slaves to do their bidding, all of the charm rules prevent this, so you just have to wing it.




Personally, I always wondered why they never came up with an advanced illithid that has dominate person as a spell-like/psionic ability (elder brains notwithstanding).


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## WayneLigon (Mar 13, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> I've wondered before about how this is supposed to work. Has has anyone else? The _charm_ effects that these monsters use don't actually subjugate their targets, after all. As the DMG states, charming someone makes them your friend, not your flunky. ... So, how does this master/slave dynamic actually work out the way you see it?



Read up on some real-life master-slave (you, in the back.. not the sexual kind, dumbo) dynamics. Some pretty simple things let normal humans enslave their own kind, creating behaviours in very short periods of time that seem utterly at odds with any form of rational thought. Look at the Elizabeth Smart case, or at various descriptions of cults and how they wear down a persons will to resist. Then there is Stockholm Syndrome, where people come to identify and sympathize with their captors. (Though that's probably not going to come into play with mind Flayers; they're too unlike the slaves. With Drow? Yeah, that's going to work.)

_Charm_ makes them see you as a trusted ally and bestest buddy. The Mind Flayer has a pretty decent Cha so your normal human is likely to be blowing the oppossed Charisma checks to avoid doing non-suicidal things against his will. Thing like eat your child's brain, let the mind flayer mate with you, beat your best friend, kill that stranger, stuff like that. Of course, the memory of doing those things apparently of your own free will and liking them doesn't go away when the monster lets the charm fade. 

Charm lets the mind flayer be your best pal. A best pal who is a sadistic, evil, hyper-intellegent monster who delights in your pain, confusion, misery and self-loathing. We've all known a friend-of-a-friend who's in a bad relationship and we all wonder 'well, why doesn't she just leave'? This is something like that; the charming effect is a one-way street. 

It becomes, in some ways, a vastly _more_ sick tool that _Domination_ because it _doesn't_ allow puppet-like control. There's that sense and memory of devotion and caring that comes with friendship. That more than anything will wear away at a person. 

We have _Detect Thoughts_, an at-will power. It can know what you are thinking at any time, day or night. It can turn the power of your dreams against you. Use the names of family and friends, which it can learn with a few well-asked questions. (It's like 'Don't think of a white elephant'. Ooops. Sorry. Unless you have the concentration of a monk, you just thought of a white elephant. Same principle applies.) Any escape plan you think of, it knows, right then.

Then we have the _Suggestion_ power, which lets the mind flayer gradually pick and pick at that barrier of what you will and will not do. Used over time, it's a gradual nudge here and there to get them used to doing horrible things, or used to obediance. It helps form patterns, and most people live by patterns. 

Then we have simple pain and abuse. Your average PC hero probably isn't going to succumb to the starvation, pain, and constant abuse but most people will. These things wear people down in a shockingly short span of time, until, yeah, you'll do pretty much what you're told to do. Especially because you remember that suddenly this Thing can become your best friend on earth. 

It cares for you, and likes you; it told you, and your best friend would never lie to you, would he? He tells you you're a worthless slave, so of course that's what you must be. He only beats you or drills holes in your head when you anger him. If you tried harder, if only you were not such a useless sack of dung, he wouldn't have to hurt you. Indeed, _you_ are the one _making_ him hurt you! It's _your_ fault, you filthy useless thing. How dare you? You should be good. If you cared, you would be good. And we all want to be good, don't we? Of course we do. 

That's just off the top of my head, and I'm not an Int 19 (which is the Int of the most basic, stupid, crummiest Mind Flayer) super-genius sadistic monster.


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## Gez (Mar 13, 2004)

The above is sadly true (well, the stuff about real-life human psychology, anyway).

In addition, the statblock only describe things that are useful in combat. If beholders have a supernatural way to turn people into thralls, but it takes a full week rather than a standard action, or a handful of rounds, then there's no real point in listing it in the hard rules. Just say in the background fluff that they have ways to turn people into thralls.


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## Ruvion (Mar 13, 2004)

Although that may well all be true Wayne, I would think that these alien abberations, namely the mind flayer, would be quite distant and too dispassionate to be involved in what I would call an "intimate relationship" (remember sadism is intimacy on a different tangent).  If someone is to be involved in a master and slave relationship that you describe he would have to invest quite some time and energy just to properly bring a creature in line as a thrall.  And I imagine there are many more thralls than Illithids in any given mind flayer community (barring the influence of an elder brain).  Bottom line: I just don't see the super genius "superior than thou" alien-like creatures stooping to even bother doing such a thing for every single slave....Maybe just the special high level ones.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 13, 2004)

Wow, this is creepy as hell.  You so helped me get a nice sense of what the villainy of these bastards is like.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 13, 2004)

I like to give my Mind Flayers Leadership, and have their hierlings be the slaves, and their cohort be their bodyguard....of course, they got it through pure manaical manipulation, just like Wayne said. Mind Flayers aren't *that* alien.......humans just like to think they are, because it means that, deep down, they aren't like them, the don't do the same things, they don't have those same powers....of course not......humans never manipulate each other for vile ends......never...........

........every enduring monster is a representation of a human failing after all.....


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## evileeyore (Mar 13, 2004)

I was gonna post something quick and witty, about how they use 'headology'...

Then I read WayneLigon's post.

Are you perchance writting an 'Ecology of...' about MindFlayers?  You should consider it.  That was pure evil genius.  

Consider it yoinked.

--filing for later use, and giving props--EvilE


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Mar 13, 2004)

> Personally, I always wondered why they never came up with an advanced illithid that has dominate person as a spell-like/psionic ability (elder brains notwithstanding).



No, that would be wimpy. The most common mind flayer thrall is a grimlock, who is a _monstrous_ humanoid.


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## Felon (Mar 13, 2004)

Wayne, that's a very interesting post. Now, here's what I've been pondering about:



			
				WayneLigon said:
			
		

> _Charm_ makes them see you as a trusted ally and bestest buddy. The Mind Flayer has a pretty decent Cha so your normal human is likely to be blowing the oppossed Charisma checks to avoid doing non-suicidal things against his will. Thing like eat your child's brain, let the mind flayer mate with you, beat your best friend, kill that stranger, stuff like that.




Most beings would be violently opposed to doing any of those things, and that would mean not only an opposed Cha check but a renewed Will save. Granted, illithids can _charm_ at will so re-establishing a hold over an individual would be no big deal, but considering that thralls outnumber the illithids by a considerable margin in most flayer communities, and considering the number of vile things that would routinely be demanded of them, we're talking a lot of slaves snapping out of it on a regular basis. 

Moreover, a slave would only have a favorable outlook on the flayer(s) who charmed him, so he'd constantly be witness to disgusting acts that he _won't_ view in the most favorable light, and likely being bossed around from time to time by creatures he's not loyal to.



> It becomes, in some ways, a vastly _more_ sick tool that _Domination_ because it _doesn't_ allow puppet-like control. There's that sense and memory of devotion and caring that comes with friendship. That more than anything will wear away at a person.




Having given the matter some thought, I suppose one key element is that the typical charmed thrall is evil himself. That actually takes a lot of the work out of maintaining control, since it reduces the likelyhood of having qualms about any actions he might be directed to perform. I suppose illithids might find human thralls less accomodating about eating their children's brains.


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## Felon (Mar 13, 2004)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> No, that would be wimpy. The most common mind flayer thrall is a grimlock, who is a _monstrous_ humanoid.




My bad. Should've said _Dominate Monster_.


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## Nightfall (Mar 13, 2004)

Plus some have developed special slave collars that make escape impossible.


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## Gez (Mar 13, 2004)

Nothing in the rules assess the long-term effects of having its mind routinely flayed, litterally. Mind-_flayers_, you know. The rules are oriented for combat, and all the game is slanted this way.

D&D poisons are dangerous for one minute. Past this minute, if you're still alive, all his well, you'll recover. This would make the Borgia laugh. But it's simple, straightforward, and reduces backtracking, allowing stuff to be forgotten quickly. Imagine how complex a more realistic treatment of poison would be, including % chance of getting accustomed to it, thus giving greater resistance, but weakening certain tissues (like liver or neurons) and increasing risks of cancers... A real pain.

D&D is a game. Its rules have a game's focus. And that's for the better.

But on the other hand, it means that the rules, shock, horror, aren't complete. That they don't manage _everything_. That there are still things left to winging, arbitrary, and plot devices. How sad...  Naaaaah, let's be real. Mind-flayers have stuff to flay minds. They're natural telepaths. You can frequently sense their intrusion in your mind, while they're reading your thoughts. Nothing in the rules describe the effect of _detect thoughts_ as being perceived as an intrusion. Nothing _in the rules_. Once again, it's not a videogame. It don't need to put everything in code. These things are left to the DM's fiat.

Likewise, nothing in the rules say that illithids eat brain. They can use it in combat (their "extract" special attack), but that don't mean it nourrishes them. The rule don't say how many brains they need to eat each day to have a balanced diet. Or if they find brains of more intelligent creatures to be tastier, or more nourrishing. And so on.


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 14, 2004)

It is interesting the Vampires are given a stupendous domination ability (when charm seems more likely) while creatures that build empires of thralls have charm (where domination seems more likely).


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## Arnwyn (Mar 14, 2004)

The 2e Illithiad book has some details on how slaves become "thralls".

(And that's where the references in _Underdark_ came from.)


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## Felon (Mar 14, 2004)

Gez said:
			
		

> Nothing in the rules assess the long-term effects of having its mind routinely flayed, litterally. Mind-_flayers_, you know. The rules are oriented for combat, and all the game is slanted this way.




Actually, the rules assess the out-of-combat effects of being charmed just fine. Indeed, _charm person_ and _monster_ are sub-optimal for use in combat as the target receives a +5 bonus if it feels threatened by the caster or his allies.


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## Felon (Mar 14, 2004)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> The 2e Illithiad book has some details on how slaves become "thralls". (And that's where the references in _Underdark_ came from.)




Ah. Can you tell me more?


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## Ssyleia (Mar 15, 2004)

I tend to be a little less on the letter of source material. Yet Thralls are an important part in the cultural identity of some evil races in my campaingns, namely Illithids, beholders, aboleths and yuan-ti.

I have Illithids appear a little like the borg of Star Trek. They always speak in imperative, they speak of themselves in plural and they adress non-illithids as neuters, saying something like "The Elminster will give us the Orb of Arn Now!" They make Thralls by some kind of permanent mental dominance. Since this is a 9th-level psionic power a creature would usually be turned into a thrall by the illithid community's Elder Brain. Also, Illithids are extremely decadent. They rely on slaved for basically everything. They even have thralls up for guards. A wizard thrall might even find his place as a tutor to young Illithid wizards. Additionally, there is always the chance that an outstandingly capable and loyal thrall might be "rewarded" by being host to an Illithid tadpole.

Yuan-ti on the other hand are despicted as a self-evolutionary race, with a touch of the "Temple of Doom" to them. They have all those drugs and (genetic?) enhancements they use to make thralls. Yuan-ti thralls are only employed for menial tasks, like erecting great stone temples for the yuan-ti gods. They don't get used as soldiers or guards, like the Illithid thralls do. Also, they have Ophidians to do that. Yuan-ti thralls lead a short and brutal live. 
Yuan-ti assemble raiding parties to raid human settlements for thralls. You don't want to meet my yuan-ti, trust me!

Beholders keep thralls because they are lazy. Their thralling method is somewhat like "Do this or I disintegrate you". They have a habit of disintegrating their thralls, even if they comply if they are in a bad mood. Hence beholder thralls are always in short supply.

Aboleths have never played a big role in my campaigns so I cannot tell much about these here.

Hope to have given you some ideas


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## Calico_Jack73 (Mar 15, 2004)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> The 2e Illithiad book has some details on how slaves become "thralls".
> 
> (And that's where the references in _Underdark_ came from.)




Yep... The Illithiad was a great book!  All fluff with just a little bit of game mechanics thrown in.

According to The Illithiad, Flayers don't need to eat brains all that often but they do find pleasure in it.  SO... being the enterprising villains that they are they construct huge ampitheaters for "Performance Eating".  The Performance Eater is an Illithid who is reknowned for his ability to enjoy eating brains to the very utmost.  They bring in a victim and the Performance Eater forms a telepathic link with all of the Illithids in the amptheater so the can all experience his pleasures and sensations while he is eating the victims brain.  Sometimes, he'll also create a link with the victim so the victim senses the anticipation of the feeding, the pleasure and taste of feeding on his own brain (until he dies of course).  

If this were a 3E book it'd have a "Mature Reader" sticker on it.

You can get it from RPG Now at:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1487


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## Cerubus Dark (Mar 15, 2004)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> It cares for you, and likes you; it told you, and your best friend would never lie to you, would he? He tells you you're a worthless slave, so of course that's what you must be. He only beats you or drills holes in your head when you anger him. If you tried harder, if only you were not such a useless sack of dung, he wouldn't have to hurt you. Indeed, _you_ are the one _making_ him hurt you! It's _your_ fault, you filthy useless thing. How dare you? You should be good. If you cared, you would be good. And we all want to be good, don't we? Of course we do.



Dang that was good to read, now I have an idea for using some of these creepies.


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## frankthedm (Oct 3, 2006)

I treat it as a form of insanity that comes from being continually charmed. Kind of like stockholm [orc-home] syndrome backed up with magic. Kicks in after being continally charmed for extended periods of time. Player characters are immune to this just as they are immune to falling in love unless they choose otherwise. 







			
				WayneLigon said:
			
		

> It cares for you, and likes you; it told you, and your best friend would never lie to you, would he? He tells you you're a worthless slave, so of course that's what you must be. He only beats you or drills holes in your head when you anger him. If you tried harder, if only you were not such a useless sack of dung, he wouldn't have to hurt you. Indeed, you are the one making him hurt you! It's your fault, you filthy useless thing. How dare you? You should be good. If you cared, you would be good. And we all want to be good, don't we? Of course we do.



Oh yeah, it is like that.


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## pawsplay (Oct 3, 2006)

Ruvion said:
			
		

> Although that may well all be true Wayne, I would think that these alien abberations, namely the mind flayer, would be quite distant and too dispassionate to be involved in what I would call an "intimate relationship" (remember sadism is intimacy on a different tangent).  If someone is to be involved in a master and slave relationship that you describe he would have to invest quite some time and energy just to properly bring a creature in line as a thrall.  And I imagine there are many more thralls than Illithids in any given mind flayer community (barring the influence of an elder brain).  Bottom line: I just don't see the super genius "superior than thou" alien-like creatures stooping to even bother doing such a thing for every single slave....Maybe just the special high level ones.




Have you ever wondered what rats think of their insane, incomprehensible masters who make them run mazes?


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## Sejs (Oct 3, 2006)

Ruvion said:
			
		

> Although that may well all be true Wayne, I would think that these alien abberations, namely the mind flayer, would be quite distant and too dispassionate to be involved in what I would call an "intimate relationship" (remember sadism is intimacy on a different tangent).  If someone is to be involved in a master and slave relationship that you describe he would have to invest quite some time and energy just to properly bring a creature in line as a thrall.  And I imagine there are many more thralls than Illithids in any given mind flayer community (barring the influence of an elder brain).  Bottom line: I just don't see the super genius "superior than thou" alien-like creatures stooping to even bother doing such a thing for every single slave....Maybe just the special high level ones.




They can detect your thoughts at will and are staggeringly intelligent.  Make no mistake, there is no intimate relationship.  In no way do they care even in the slightest about the false relationship they're nurturing with their thrall. 

But they -do- know what the thrall needs to hear and feel in order for it to bend, and then break, and then serve.  So they _lie_.  

They are alien, and dispassionate, and superior.  Distant and domineering.  Just because they know what the tool requires in order for it to function doesn't reduce that even slightly.

As for the issue of induction, there are probably illithids whose job that is, to batch-process servants when they're first brought in.  Starve them into submission then turn on the juice when they're weak, one by one, right down the line.  And that's not even getting into the issue of thralls they breed themselves.  Easiest solution, really.  Crossbreed your already broken slaves and raise the offspring in an environment where unswerving loyalty comes factory standard.


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