# Playtest: The Druid (merged)



## Fallen Seraph (Dec 1, 2008)

Well what you have all been waiting for is here, the Druid:

D&D Druid, Levels 1-3


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## doctorhook (Dec 1, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:


> Well what you have all been waiting for is here, the Druid:
> 
> D&D Druid, Levels 1-3



Primal COntroller, I win!


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## JVisgaitis (Dec 1, 2008)

*Druid is up!*

Only 1st to 3rd level, but its here. Check it: D&D Druid, Levels 1-3


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## Drakhar (Dec 1, 2008)

Am I the only one who thinks that Barbs will be getting something like Primal Guardian?


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 1, 2008)

I have to say I like that Wild Shape doesn't have to be specific animals, it can simply be a amalgamation of various Primal Spirits. I likey, fits quite well with my style of Druid and that the Beast-Keyword Powers may alter that shape accordingly. This fits surprisingly well with my style of Druid.


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## frankthedm (Dec 1, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that Barbs will be getting something like Primal Guardian?



that's the Warden. Shaman will be the primal leader. Maybe, wotc did mention they want to keep the barbarian out of heavy armor.

Say, what was the wording about how you count as your own ally in 4E? I am wondering about that and how *Call of the Beast* is worded.

_"*Hit:* The target can't gain combat advantage until the end of your next turn. In addition, on its next turn the target takes psychic damage equal to 5 + your Wisdom modifier when it makes any attack that doesn't include your ally nearest to it as a target.__"_


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## BarkingDeathSquirrel (Dec 1, 2008)

Well, I'll be damned. It's still both a Shapeshifter/Weather druid. And the free Animal Messenger once per day kinda has the feel of an animal companion too.  

Interesting to see that wildshape has no effect other than letting them use Beast powers. Of course, it seems there will be quite a few Utility powers that give bonuses to wildshape. Wonder if there will be any feats that modify it... or rather, to the extent they'll give bonuses.



Drakhar said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that Barbs will be getting something like Primal Guardian?




Nope, it seems a perfect fit for the class. I'm surprised the Druid got it, though.


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## Vendark (Dec 1, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> Say, what was the wording about how you count as your own ally in 4E?




You don't.


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## RefinedBean (Dec 1, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that Barbs will be getting something like Primal Guardian?




Maybe they're restructuring the Primal classes to all share the common trait of using a non-common ability to AC.  I'd be down with that.

As to what we've been given:  I'm digging it, but I'd need to see one in play.  Switching from Beast Form and back so often in combat...hrm.

I'm just thankful there's another Controller out, honestly.


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## doctorhook (Dec 1, 2008)

Anybody else notice the part where it says Druids start with THREE At-Wills?


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## BarkingDeathSquirrel (Dec 1, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Anybody else notice the part where it says Druids start with THREE At-Wills?




Yeah, but one (and no more than two) has to be a Beast At-Will... kinda makes sense, since you don't change any stats when you Wildshape.


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## spinmd (Dec 1, 2008)

Am I missing something or is it only 1st and 2nd level, when I load the page I get no 3rd level encounter powers...


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## Daelkyr (Dec 1, 2008)

Anyone else miss the fact that there is no level three powers listed in the levels 1-3 preview?


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## Hawke (Dec 1, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Anybody else notice the part where it says Druids start with THREE At-Wills?




Kind of interestingly congruent to wizards two daily spells. Seems to make some sense... Druids have some more options with lower-level controllery stuff (aside from wizard cantrips) while Wizards have more options when it comes to big-bad-powerful spells.


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## fba827 (Dec 1, 2008)

it says level 1-3 but (at least when i load it) it seems to only to go level 2 utilities.. i don't see lvl 3 encounters.  is my page just loading wierd or something and therefore not getting the level 3 powers?


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## thecasualoblivion (Dec 1, 2008)

It bears saying that I didn't have to sign in to Insider to read this. Also, it was advertised that this would be a playtest. Playtests prior to this ran all 30 levels.


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## Drakhar (Dec 1, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Anybody else notice the part where it says Druids start with THREE At-Wills?



Yah but atleast one of them has to be a beast power and no more then two can be, for their entire career as a Druid. And all I know is that Druids better be sure that their defenders know the kind of trouble that they'll be bringing down on them with Call of the Beast, because it's a Burst 1 at-will.


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## Phaezen (Dec 1, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Anybody else notice the part where it says Druids start with THREE At-Wills?



And that they have EIGHT to choose from straight off the bat. 

That said, so far I am liking what I am seeing.  The utilities seem to give erm utility to the beast form.  Skittering sneak is nice for those players who like using thier wildshape to scout and spy.

Phaezen


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## valeren (Dec 1, 2008)

Where'd the level 3 powers go?


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## doctorhook (Dec 1, 2008)

Hawke said:


> Kind of interestingly congruent to wizards two daily spells. Seems to make some sense... Druids have some more options with lower-level controllery stuff (aside from wizard cantrips) while Wizards have more options when it comes to big-bad-powerful spells.



You're right.

This way, Druids always have two At-Wills available, no matter which form they're in. Human Druids will have an extra At-Will available to them in one of those forms.


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## Amy Kou'ai (Dec 1, 2008)

I notice that the at-wills are in some cases strictly better than a comparable wizard at-will, e.g. flame seed vs. cloud of daggers.


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## thecasualoblivion (Dec 1, 2008)

Amy Kou'ai said:


> I notice that the at-wills are in some cases strictly better than a comparable wizard at-will, e.g. chill wind vs. thunderwave, flame seed vs. cloud of daggers, and so on.
> 
> (Edit: Ninja'd.)




Chill Wind and Flame Seed don't deal +Wisdom.


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## Hawke (Dec 1, 2008)

I wonder how easily it would be to completely ignore either the more distance-controller side or the beast form side. Hard to tell from the first, uh 2, levels. 

But as an example you could create a Shapeshifter/Werewolf
At-Will (Call of the Wild, Grasping Claws, Savage Rend) 
Encounter (Darting Bite) 
Daily (Savage Frenzy) 
Utility (Fleet Pursuit) 

I wonder how this would ultimately scale... or if we can expect a similar wild shape from the Warden with beefier abilities more tailored to a defender? It seems easier to be a full-controller druid, though.


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## doctorhook (Dec 1, 2008)

Phaezen said:


> And that they have EIGHT to choose from straight off the bat.
> 
> That said, so far I am liking what I am seeing.  The utilities seem to give erm utility to the beast form.  Skittering sneak is nice for those players who like using thier wildshape to scout and spy.
> 
> Phaezen



I really like Skittering Sneak. The layout of that power suggests to me that we'll see additional wild shape utilities at higher levels, including perhaps Large or even Huge creatures, or Swarms, presented with similar mechanics.


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## ppaladin123 (Dec 1, 2008)

It looks like I can easily re-skin the druid into a monk..I mean really easily. Pick all the close/melee powers, change the implement to ki-straps or something of the sort, make wild shape (let's you shift as a minor!), "battle focus" and viola.


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## Amy Kou'ai (Dec 1, 2008)

thecasualoblivion said:


> Chill Wind and Flame Seed don't deal +Wisdom.




Huh, you're right.  I stand corrected.

Interesting to see "Beast Form" and "Implement", incidentally.


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## Shroomy (Dec 1, 2008)

Amy Kou'ai said:


> Huh, you're right.  I stand corrected.
> 
> Interesting to see "Beast Form" and "Implement", incidentally.




Its needed to scale the at-will powers correctly.  Whats cool about the Beast Form at-wills is that all of them contain a mini-controller effect even though they are melee powers.


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 1, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Its needed to scale the at-will powers correctly.  Whats cool about the Beast Form at-wills is that all of them contain a mini-controller effect even though they are melee powers.



Well I guess the long-standing question of how one would do a melee oriented Controller has been answered 

This one really looks like it will be one where without any effort a whole smörgåsbord of different types of characters can come into being.


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## doctorhook (Dec 1, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Its needed to scale the at-will powers correctly.  Whats cool about the Beast Form at-wills is that all of them contain a mini-controller effect even though they are melee powers.



This is the closest to "melee Controller" we've yet seen, though it's not a dedicated melee combatant.

I'm not sure I'd a character with those Hit Points up front all the time anyway.

EDIT: _Partially_ ninja'd.


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## Andor (Dec 1, 2008)

Wow, is it just me or is this guy the rogue's best friend? An at will that grants combat advantage? Not to mention they can fling baddies around left and right for optimal positioning. 

A rogue and a druid in the same party looks to be just gruesome. And really, it just makes sense that 'dirty alley sneak' and 'savage wilderness priest' should make the perfet team.  Err... What the hell, it works. 

Oh, and what the heck is an *aftereffect*? New keyword there?


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## chaotix42 (Dec 1, 2008)

An aftereffect kicks in after a creature makes a successful save against that power.


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## Shroomy (Dec 1, 2008)

Andor said:


> Wow, is it just me or is this guy the rogue's best friend? An at will that grants combat advantage? Not to mention they can fling baddies around left and right for optimal positioning.
> 
> A rogue and a druid in the same party looks to be just gruesome. And really, it just makes sense that 'dirty alley sneak' and 'savage wilderness priest' should make the perfet team.  Err... What the hell, it works.
> 
> Oh, and what the heck is an *aftereffect*? New keyword there?




The at-will _call of the beast_ denies the target the ability to gain combat advantage, it doesn't grant it.  Aftereffects are described in the MM; they happen if you hit the target and after the initial effect ends.


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 1, 2008)

Andor said:


> A rogue and a druid in the same party looks to be just gruesome. And really, it just makes sense that 'dirty alley sneak' and 'savage wilderness priest' should make the perfet team.  Err... What the hell, it works.
> 
> Oh, and what the heck is an *aftereffect*? New keyword there?



It is funny cause in most of my settings where there are Druids it actually does. Since their generally underground urban groups trying to have nature overwhelm the city, so they deal with criminal groups a ton 

As for aftereffect, monsters have it. In the MM it is stated as being:


> Some monster powers have aftereffects. An aftereffect happens automatically when a power’s initial effect ends. A creature is subjected to an aftereffect only if it was hit by the power. An aftereffect doesn’t trigger on a missed attack unless otherwise noted.



So looks like perhaps PHB2 will have some character abilities that only monsters had before.

Edit: Martial Power and Dragon has some Powers that had aftereffect as well.


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## Shroomy (Dec 1, 2008)

Its interesting that using the currently available races, humans make a particularly strong druid thanks to the extra at-will.  I wonder if any of the Primal-focused races in the PHB2(I'm guessing Shifter, Goliath, and Half-Orc) will have a racial ability granting them access to more Primal abilities?


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## Roger (Dec 1, 2008)

I think I'm going to run off and create a warforged druid right now.

He shall be named Optimus Prime.


Cheers,
Roger


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## Ktulu (Dec 1, 2008)

Roger said:


> I think I'm going to run off and create a warforged druid right now.
> 
> He shall be named Optimus Prim*al*
> 
> ...




fixed that for you.


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## Shroomy (Dec 1, 2008)

I have to say before I go to bed, I'm very pleased with this glimpse of the druid.  Bravo WotC!


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## Cadfan (Dec 1, 2008)

Some line by line critique, and then some thoughts at the end to sum up.
*


			
				Wild Shape said:
			
		


Effect: You change from your humanoid form to beast form or vice versa. When you change from beast form back to your humanoid form, you can shift 1 square.
		
Click to expand...


*This is absolute _genius._ This is going to be the hidden MVP of the entire Druid class.

If it weren't for this, you'd basically start by casting spells, then shift to beast form for some melee cleanup. But thanks to this one line here, you can switch to beast form, charge into melee, do some damage, shift back and shift back a space to throw down a control spell, then shift to beast form again next round and reenter the fray. This one little line permits the class to function as a sort of dance between beast and human form, instead of just one or the other.

Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution. The wisdom and dex were inevitable, because of elves. Odd, in a way. It basically pushes beast form powers towards agile beasts like cougars and away from tough beasts like bears or boars.

Ok, there are a LOT of at wills here, seriously. But you get three of them. That's... definitely a good move. Because as we're going to see, some of these are highly situational.

Call the Beast: Hmm. Its a neat effect, but as an at will? Also, "when it doesn't" should be "if it doesn't."

Chill Wind: Doesn't add your wisdom modifier to damage? I guess it kind of can't, because if it did it would be miles above Scorching Burst, but it kind of bites to have a power that remains that static in terms of damage. Makes it only really useful for the slide, not for the damage dealt. I'd at least have made it Wisdom modifier damage without the die roll- the average at level 1 is nearly identical, and it can grow a little over time.

Flame Seed: The spaces adjacent, but not the space itself? It creates a little wall around the target. Are you considered adjacent to yourself? More important, is your space considered a space adjacent to you? The dictionary says no.

Grasping Claws: Hey, I just now noticed that natural weapons don't need proficiency bonuses. You can just make them target defenses, and let the attacker use an implement that isn't held in the hand. Neat!

Pounce: This is good.

Savage Rend: Aww, they totally stole this one from my homebrew that I never published! Stupid WOTC psychic thieves! Seriously though, this power is written on a yellow legal pad two feet to my fight as a part of my homebrew shapeshifting class. Even the theme is the same- swat someone with claws, slide them a space.

Storm Spike: The damage is acceptable for an at will single target ranged attack even without the extra effect if they don't move, so this one's fine. Makes nice combinations with an ally's Immobilization attacks, but the damage isn't high enough to go too crazy with it. BUT IT NEEDS ERRATA! The theme is totally screwed up if someone else slides the target while its not the target's turn. It should be "If the target doesn't move at least 2 squares BEFORE THE END OF its next turn, it takes lightning damage equal to your Wisdom modifier."

Thorn Whip: This one's cool. Nice for use by a character with good melee powers, but without the durability to charge into the center of battle. Pull your foe out a little, then take them on.

Cull the Herd: Eh... not sure what I think of beast form attacks that don't actually use the beast form much. I mean, its a spell, its magic, why can't you use it when you're in human form? It won't bother me long, but the theme is not strong with this one.

Darting Bite: Your run of the mill maneuverability based encounter power.

Frost Flash: Without the bonus damage, this is really weak. With it, its ok.

Twisting Vines: Very thematic. Again with the "each space adjacent" thing. This one makes me wonder- is this an oversight? Because it creates REALLY weird patterns on the ground if you capture two or more targets within your burst 1.

Faerie Fire: Thematic and powerful. I like it.

Fires of Life: Neat, but I suspect it will be difficult to use.

Savage Frenzy: Classic melee stuff.

Wind Prison: Really odd. Makes the DM make some weird decisions, because the target is presumed to know the effects of powers used against him. So the DM has to ask- the monster knows he's granting combat advantage, but also that if he moves, his allies will be harmed, unless he moves immediately before them in the initiative order and they can safely stand back up, and in any case this monster is an orc who probably doesn't like his allies much anyways, and... etc.

Barkskin: Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Oh well. The old barkskin doesn't fit 4e anyways.

Fleet Pursuit: Fine, but should probably be rephrased. The clauses could fit better with some commas and a reordering.

Obscuring Mist: The wording on the Sustain could be better. I'm not sure how much use this will get.

Skittering Sneak: The sort of thing a lot of people expected. But... it helps Stealth, and not Bluff. So once you're noticed, everyone knows you're a Druid in disguise?

General Thoughts

Overall I like it. It seems to strike the right balance to me of wild shape and magic. But because "I love it! I really do!" isn't that interesting, I'm going to put down some criticisms.

The beast form powers aren't all that thematic. This was inevitable, I think, for reasons I'll describe in more detail in my discussion of my fantasy heartbreaker version of wild shape. But in short, making your beast form a nebulous animal-like shape basically prevents you from crafting powers that make explicit, thematic use of your beast form's characteristics. For example, its tough to make a power themed after goring a foe with tusks if the beast form doesn't have mechanically relevant attributes.

I'm really skeptical of efforts to create melee controller powers. This seems to bear out my skepticism. Sure, you can create melee powers that Slow, Daze, or Immobilize, but that really just keeps the target in one place: right next to you. Where they then attack you. Which is called being a Defender. So they can claim that this class is a Controller that can also be a little bit of a Striker or a Leader, but when I see a class that makes enemies hold still and fight man to man, I know I'm seeing a Defender. Guess we'll have to wait a little and find out exactly how much of that there is in the Druid. The human form stuff is certainly control.

The wild shape is aesthetically unsatisfying to me. I knew this would happen, so I can't complain much, and every previous edition of wild shape has been similarly unsatisfying to me, but there you go. The things I want in wild shape are: 1. I want to KNOW what it is I'm wild shaping into. This nebulous beast form doesn't do it for me. 2. I want the thing I'm wild shaping into to have an effect on the game. This beast form really doesn't- it just opens access to a suite of powers. That would work if that suite of powers were heavily themed based on the nature of my beast form, but they aren't. 3. I don't want to have a million different things I wild shape into. I want one, maybe two, and I want to specialize in them. An example of what I'm looking for would be something like, "You can wild shape into a bear. In bear form, you have the following bear themed powers. As you level up, you will get additional bear themed powers, as you master your form." It doesn't seem that I'm getting this. The wild shape powers previewed so far don't go into this much.

I'm not bitter about this, because I suspect that what I want runs counter to what the vast majority of D&D players want. And honestly, this comes a lot closer than what I expected (this gives you one beast form, you can theme it as you please, and the powers are generic, so while you're not aided in playing like I want, you're not hindered either).


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## Solodan (Dec 1, 2008)

Wow, looks interesting.  Note the suggested feats - I wonder what those do.

Seems more of a teaser than a playtest.  Not much we can break with only level 1 and 2 abilitities.  

Well, let it be said, I've been teased.


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## doctorhook (Dec 1, 2008)

Solodan said:


> Wow, looks interesting.  Note the suggested feats - I wonder what those do.
> 
> Seems more of a teaser than a playtest.  Not much we can break with only level 1 and 2 abilitities.
> 
> Well, let it be said, I've been teased.



They must have decided not to spoil the _entire_ book beforehand.


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## Cadfan (Dec 1, 2008)

Also, Call of the Beast needs some rewording, in my opinion.  It shouldn't require the target to attack one of YOUR allies, it should require the target to attack one of ITS enemies.  I've had three way fights going before, and the theme of the power breaks down in those situations due to this minor wording issue.


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## frankthedm (Dec 1, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> Some line by line critique, and then some thoughts at the end to sum up.
> 
> This is absolute _genius._ This is going to be the hidden MVP of the entire Druid class.
> 
> If it weren't for this, you'd basically start by casting spells, then shift to beast form for some melee cleanup. But thanks to this one line here, you can switch to beast form, charge into melee, do some damage, shift back and shift back a space to throw down a control spell, then shift to beast form again next round and reenter the fray. This one little line permits the class to function as a sort of dance between beast and human form, instead of just one or the other.



Don't forget "*Special:* You can use this power once per round."


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## Cadfan (Dec 1, 2008)

Also, for the zero people who care- yeah, this class sort of makes my personal Beastform Shifter redundant.  That's the homebrew class I sketched up over the weekend based on conversations with my wife while driving to and from Thanksgiving dinner.  

My class was pretty different, as it was intended to be a Defender who gets his power from shifting into a beast form.  Each character had just one beast form, with broad traits selected from a menu.  These traits provided you with your class abilities.  They also opened up access to various powers, with different traits opening up access to different powers.  So if your beast form had the trait "Venom," you could pick powers related to poisonous claws or bites.  Describing the beast form was still up to you, but the traits provided a guide, and meant that the form you described was relevant to the mechanics of your character.

Things I did that they did: the idea of powers thematically customizing your beast form, the idea of wisdom as the attack statistic for melee powers while in beast form.

Things I did that they didn't: made the specifics of the form relevant.

Things I didn't do that they did and I should have done: noticed that Wis v Ref obviates the need for a proficiency bonus to claw attacks more efficiently than Wis+2 v AC, or any of the other workarounds I considered.  Duh.


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## Cadfan (Dec 1, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> Don't forget "*Special:* You can use this power once per round."



Oh, I know.

Look, basically, if you're willing to alternate between ranged and melee attacks, they just gave the Druid the kobold's "Shifty" power.


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## Wycen (Dec 1, 2008)

I like the Fires of Life, though I expect it is mostly useful against minions.


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## Hawke (Dec 1, 2008)

So I think I'm going to add a druid to an encounter tomorrow night. The players are in a large forest in search (skill challenge) of a green dragon - at some point they run into a heavily themed dragonkin kobold that are associated with the dragon. 

I think I'll have the human druid start out with Skittering Sneak and hopefully go unnoticed - or if noticed will scurry away. Then at some point when combat seems to turn to the party's favor, he'll jump in beast form and show up as just some natural monster as far as the players are concerned. Finally, he'll reveal himself, drop some controllery spells until the dragonkin are defeated and then distance himself for some good roleplay. 

Afterwards I can say "You just playtested the druid!" Works with in a more unaligned sense and jumping in to help the underdogs... heck, it implores me to make the initial combat harder in case he decides to come in to their aide. 

At this point the Druid will be my first PC from PHB2. I could see _maybe_ invoker taking over, but thematically I don't think I can tear myself away from it. 

There seems to be so many options it looks like it will win the award for "most prone to retraining for fun" class. Maybe that fits well with the theme - the connection with nature constantly changing the druid's abilities with the seasons...


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## fba827 (Dec 1, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> But thanks to this one line here, you can switch to beast form, charge into melee, do some damage, shift back and shift back a space to throw down a control spell, then shift to beast form again next round and reenter the fray. This one little line permits the class to function as a sort of dance between beast and human form, instead of just one or the other.




I am not sure you can do that, exactly, since you can only shift to/from once per round (see last line of the ability).  So you'd use the ability once that round to shift to the form.  And you're have to wait until next round to use the ability to shift back to humanoid form.
Of course, it is past 1am here and I'm tired so I may be misreading what you said or misreading the power....


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## Kobold Avenger (Dec 1, 2008)

An interesting thing about this Druid is that their wildshape doesn't have to be anything distinct as an animal.  

And if it can be a mass of fur or claws, it could even be scales and tentacles and wings.  Somehow I could see a few druids being "Aberration" druids with their wildshape being really alien forms.


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## Cadfan (Dec 1, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:


> An interesting thing about this Druid is that their wildshape doesn't have to be anything distinct as an animal.
> 
> And if it can be a mass of fur or claws, it could even be scales and tentacles and wings. Somehow I could see a few druids being "Aberration" druids with their wildshape being really alien forms.



I expect to see options like that as feats, possibly with racial tie ins.


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 1, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:


> An interesting thing about this Druid is that their wildshape doesn't have to be anything distinct as an animal.
> 
> And if it can be a mass of fur or claws, it could even be scales and tentacles and wings.  Somehow I could see a few druids being "Aberration" druids with their wildshape being really alien forms.



*Nods* That is the style I am going for if I played a Druid, it be a weird ever shifting mass of animal parts, which will occasionally (when a Power is used) have part of its body concentrate into a complete whole like a jaw or claws.

You know some of these if you didn't want to make it seem like a full alteration. You could say the Druid keeps its humanoid form, but with the Primal Spirit unleashed he can't concentrate on weather spells and such. But instead his body is shifting and leads to said Powers.


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## Derulbaskul (Dec 1, 2008)

I was really hoping that this would be a real playtest of either 30 levels or even 10 levels like the bard. Dang, I wanted to play around with this....


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## RangerWickett (Dec 1, 2008)

I would hope there will be feats that let you specialize in a particular animal type, and give you some traits of that animal. Or maybe those will just be paragon paths. 

*Biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiird Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!*

I wonder at what level you'll get a utility that makes you large or gives you reach.


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## Pseudopsyche (Dec 1, 2008)

fba827 said:


> I am not sure you can do that, exactly, since you can only shift to/from once per round (see last line of the ability).  So you'd use the ability once that round to shift to the form.  And you're have to wait until next round to use the ability to shift back to humanoid form.
> Of course, it is past 1am here and I'm tired so I may be misreading what you said or misreading the power....



Well, switching forms every round is still a much more fluid implementation of wild shaping than we had in 3E.

Anyway, I also think the free shift upon reverting to humanoid form is a nice touch.  It's true that even without this free shift, a druid who begins her turn in beast form next to an enemy could still revert to humanoid form as a minor action, shift away as a move action, and use a ranged attack as a standard action.  But that would leave her only a square apart from her foe.  With the free shift, she can use her move action to move to safety.  I think this is the dance Cadfan mentioned, the ability to move fluidly from melee with one enemy to attacking from several squares away the next round to perhaps engaging another enemy in melee the following round.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 1, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> "You can wild shape into a bear. In bear form, you have the following bear themed powers. As you level up, you will get additional bear themed powers, as you master your form." It doesn't seem that I'm getting this. The wild shape powers previewed so far don't go into this much.




I'd put good money down on a Paragon Path for this stuff a la the ranger's beast companions.

Not a lot, but it's a bone. 

Aside from that, nothing's stopping you from fixing it in the fluff: your powers are all about your specific form, even if a druid who can turn into a totally different form does the same thing theoretically, it won't matter in actual play.

Overall, I don't mind it. I like a lot of the human-form powers, and the beast-form powers get away with it pretty well. I didn't need a wildshaper, but it doesn't seem to weaken the weather-mage, so I'm okay with it being there. The biggest complaint I could have is that grasping claws has dumb fluff that doesn't match the mechanics, but since that applies to large swaths of the core books, it's a drop in an ocean, there.  Really, the preview pulls it off okay. 

I'm down with it. It's inoffensive, and I look forward to playing a Priest of the Old Ways some day.


----------



## thecasualoblivion (Dec 1, 2008)

They could easily do a beast companion Druid by removing Wildshape and adding a Beast Companion that all the Druid Beast At-Wills and powers would emanate from.


----------



## Runestar (Dec 1, 2008)

Am I missing something, or is a wildshaped druid unable to benefit from weapon proficiency bonuses?


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## thecasualoblivion (Dec 1, 2008)

Runestar said:


> Am I missing something, or is a wildshaped druid unable to benefit from weapon proficiency bonuses?




It is unable, but wildshaped attacks are implement attacks that target Fort/Reflex/Will.


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## ppaladin123 (Dec 1, 2008)

Runestar said:


> Am I missing something, or is a wildshaped druid unable to benefit from weapon proficiency bonuses?




No weapon proficiency bonuses.....but they are implement powers. Also, they target non-AC defenses so they should be relatively accurate.


----------



## Starfox (Dec 1, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> Say, what was the wording about how you count as your own ally in 4E? I am wondering about that and how *Call of the Beast* is worded.
> 
> _"*Hit:* The target can't gain combat advantage until the end of your next turn. In addition, on its next turn the target takes psychic damage equal to 5 + your Wisdom modifier when it makes any attack that doesn't include your ally nearest to it as a target.__"_




Hehe, this power is really cool for a solo druid. "My closest ally? That would be the wife, back in waterdeep."

And no, you are not your own ally.


----------



## Phaezen (Dec 1, 2008)

After having a more considered look at the preview, they seem to have captured the essence of the D&D druid better than I had dared hope.  

A nice set of nature themed spells, giving the ability to control the battlefied.  Also has a decent shifting ability, with the option of using powers to make your shifting more versatile (Fleet Pursuit, Skittering Sneak).  And they have even thrown in some leader abilities (Barkskin, Fires of Life) to complete the set.

Phaezen


----------



## RefinedBean (Dec 1, 2008)

So, this class has some AWESOME At-Wills.  Not that every class doesn't, but the Druid, so far, really stands out.

Just like the Barbarian.

So maybe Primal classes will focus on the At-Wills?  That and the theme of "transformation" (and perhaps a reliance on Con) seems to pop up the most.


----------



## Baumi (Dec 1, 2008)

/RANT
The druid looks really interesting ... which makes the limit to level 3 even more annoying. How can we use this when only the first three levels are available, most Campaigns should be much higher by now, at the moment it is nothing more than an preview/advertising than useful material 

All off course only in my honest opinion, but I have to admit that I am very dissapointed/angry at the moment. The Playtest articles are already useless as soon as the actual books are out, but this one is useless even now.
/RANT


----------



## cwhs01 (Dec 1, 2008)

It looks very cool. It doesn't seem to have any summon spells at these levels, but a lot of wildshape goodies. 
Also, it seems to be a primary controller but with secondary class roles. Strange, but fair enough i guess.

Can someone compare it to the druid-clone in the advanced players guide?


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

I find the melee controller aspect rather scary and vexing. Namely because I fear these guys will get creamed. I anticipate a lot of Guardian druids. However, their controller aspect, regardless, is _very_ good. They look more appealing than Wizards, anyday.

The inclusion of the Implement in beast powers? BRILLIANT. I didn't expect that, and it's perfect. Also, I'm very curious about what totems look like. Are they fetishes? Medicine bags? Etc.

Only 2 levels, of a 1-3 level playtest. I imagine that will be fixed soon. And I understand why it's 1-3; we get to see both builds, rather than 1. Still, it's total suck that we only got 1-3. I want to _play_ one of these guys. 

Quite a few attacks vs. Fort. Oy. Still, I like the various attacks vs. defenses. 

A lot of powers grant combat advantage. If your group doesn't have a rogue, man, that sucks. 

Fires of Life is interesting, in that you have a controller granting HP.


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## DeusExMachina (Dec 1, 2008)

Melee controller yes, but they have striker/leader hitpoints, so that makes them a little tougher...


I'm very impressed with the new druid. It seems to work well bot stats wise and thematically and even has roomf or interpretation in the last sesne, what with the beast form being undefined. It can even be a sort of were-curse that reveals itself during stress/combat if you want it to, which is giving me some great inspiration right now...


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

> And if it can be a mass of fur or claws, it could even be scales and tentacles and wings. Somehow I could see a few druids being "Aberration" druids with their wildshape being really alien forms.




Pardon me while I drool. That is brilliant. And, the various Druid at-wills can lend themselves to aberrant powers. Well... thorn whip, at least. The cold/fire/lightning ones, not sure how you'd package that as "Far Realmsy". 

I am also fairly pleased how they handled Wildshape. I also really like the amalgamation wildshape.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (Dec 1, 2008)

DeusExMachina said:


> I'm very impressed with the new druid. It seems to work well bot stats wise and thematically and even has roomf or interpretation in the last sesne, what with the beast form being undefined. It can even be a sort of were-curse that reveals itself during stress/combat if you want it to, which is giving me some great inspiration right now...



Hehe, check out the thread I just made just about what all of our different Wild Shape concepts could be. Mine is very aberration like.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/246059-wild-shape-whats-yours.html


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 1, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Pardon me while I drool. That is brilliant. And, the various Druid at-wills can lend themselves to aberrant powers. Well... thorn whip, at least. The cold/fire/lightning ones, not sure how you'd package that as "Far Realmsy".
> 
> I am also fairly pleased how they handled Wildshape. I also really like the amalgamation wildshape.



Same here, same here. I am thinking for cold/fire/lightning. Well... Cold is used with the Starlock so that may not need to change, just perhaps the fluff for it. Fire and Lightning, hmm... Could make fire something like a bubbling substance that boils away, or whatever. Lightning perhaps simply a bolt of eldritch energy? If all else fails make them all Psychic


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:


> Same here, same here. I am thinking for cold/fire/lightning. Well... Cold is used with the Starlock so that may not need to change, just perhaps the fluff for it. Fire and Lightning, hmm... Could make fire something like a bubbling substance that boils away, or whatever. Lightning perhaps simply a bolt of eldritch energy? If all else fails make them all Psychic



I'm not yet sure what the effects of changing keywords are. For instance, I think that the lightning power could be changed to Radiant, but would that imbalance the power? Many monsters have resistance to fire - so would changing the keyword effect its balance, etc. 

Although, hmm. The fire could be just chaotic energy. Pulling a little mote of the Far Realms into reality, and the energy burns.


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## Runestar (Dec 1, 2008)

Starfox said:


> Hehe, this power is really cool for a solo druid. "My closest ally? That would be the wife, back in waterdeep."
> 
> And no, you are not your own ally.




Aren't we allowed to designate PCs as not being allies?


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 1, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Although, hmm. The fire could be just chaotic energy. Pulling a little mote of the Far Realms into reality, and the energy burns.



*Nods* and hell really when it comes down to it you could say it is fairy dust and simply not change the keyword to keep the mechanics fine and dandy. It is simply now any monster resistant to fire also happens to be resistant to fairy dust


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

Here's something interesting about Storm Spike I noticed:


> 1d8 + Wisdom modifier lightning damage. If the target *doesn't move at least 2 squares* on its next turn, it takes lightning damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.



If the target is in melee, and they do move, then they're going to take an OA. 

I wonder, if a Druid is wearing armor, and they shift, do they still benefit from the armor's AC, and the powers? 

Also, the more I look at it, the less I as a player am interested in getting into melee. There aren't a lot of really good melee powers for the beast. The ranged controller powers, though, satisfy me.

As I think about it, the only races with wisdom benefits are elf and dwarf. And obviously, elf works. But I can't think of a suitable... flavor reason for a Dwarf druid, outside of underground stuff, and I don't see a lot of "Underground" looking powers (Wind and lightning and such, in a cave?). But that's just the min-maxer in me clashing with the roleplayer.


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## DandD (Dec 1, 2008)

Didn't they want to avoid making a dual-role class? What's up with the druid, who can be a controller, and either a striker or a leader?


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## DeusExMachina (Dec 1, 2008)

I also just noticed that most beast form at wills can be used as melee basic attacks, so that means you can also use them on a charge, right?

And a slowing or sliding attack on an AO can also be pretty damn useful...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 1, 2008)

I like it so far.

A few thoughts:
1) I wonder if we'll learn over time that Controller and Defender are actually very close roles, with the major distinction between the Defender making people attack you. Otherwise, both seem to be all about shaping the battle-field to define who is to be attacked and who not. 

2) Does the At-Will number restriction for beast-keyword powers also apply to the human extra at-will? I suppose so... So that means humans will be more versatile, not more specialized. (It's already this way for most classes, I think.)



Rechan said:


> As I think about it, the only races with wisdom benefits are elf and dwarf. And obviously, elf works. But I can't think of a suitable... flavor reason for a Dwarf druid, outside of underground stuff, and I don't see a lot of "Underground" looking powers (Wind and lightning and such, in a cave?). But that's just the min-maxer in me clashing with the roleplayer.



Dwarves already made good Druids in 3E.  The Con bonus was useful. Well, at least in either 3.0 or 3.5. I think at some point, things changed. 

I think a few more subterrean-themed powers are needed. 

Hhumans are of course also always a race with a bonus to a classes primary ability score, if you want so.


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

Also, FINALLY some wisdom-based attacks. However, it occurs to me that even if you're a cleric (or a druid) and you nab one of the other class's powers (via dilettante or multi-class), you still have to lug around a separate implement just to use it. Well, use it in a worthwhile fashion.


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## DeusExMachina (Dec 1, 2008)

It's a controller with based on your build a bit more leader or striker like abilities, but the paladin also has leader like abilities and the swordmage has controller like abilities, so it's not like we haven't seen some dipping into other roles before...


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 1, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Also, FINALLY some wisdom-based attacks. However, it occurs to me that even if you're a cleric (or a druid) and you nab one of the other class's powers (via dilettante or multi-class), you still have to lug around a separate implement just to use it. Well, use it in a worthwhile fashion.




I am not sure, but the Totem thingy might be like a Holy Symbol, so at least your hands are still free. (Not that you need that if you use Cleric Wisdom based powers)


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> 1) I wonder if we'll learn over time that Controller and Defender are actually very close roles, with the major distinction between the Defender making people attack you. Otherwise, both seem to be all about shaping the battle-field to define who is to be attacked and who not.



The Bard is doing that a lot, too. By designating marks, and shifting people around the field.



> Hhumans are of course also always a race with a bonus to a classes primary ability score, if you want so.



Yes, but I generally try to avoid playing humans. (Actually, I generally try to avoid playing dwarves and elves at that, but hey). Dwarves simply feel very strong, especially with their minor Second Wind, and their push/knocked prone resistance. A melee druid needs that defensiveness!


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

Since Druids are getting the cold/wind/fire/lightning motif, I wonder what Elementalists will get.


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## Phaezen (Dec 1, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I wonder, if a Druid is wearing armor, and they shift, do they still benefit from the armor's AC, and the powers?




Yes, you still have the benfit of all items you are wearing


			
				wildshape said:
			
		

> You continue to gain the benefits of the equipment you wear. You can use the properties and the powers of implements as well as magic items that you wear, but not the properties or the powers of weapons or the powers of wondrous items.






> Also, the more I look at it, the less I as a player am interested in getting into melee. There aren't a lot of really good melee powers for the beast. The ranged controller powers, though, satisfy me.




Melee druid could be fun, no need for weapons.

Wis/Con as primary stats

Primal Guardian
At Wills:
Grasping Claws, Savage Rend, Thorn Whip (Pounce for human)

Encounter:
Darting Bite

Daily
Savage Frenzy

Could be fun.

Phaezen


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

Phaezen said:


> Melee druid could be fun, no need for weapons.



I was referring to the beast powers. Savage Frenzy doesn't do it for me. I like Pounce, but that's best used if there's a rogue in the party (but Savage Rend can do).


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## Jack99 (Dec 1, 2008)

I like it. Very elegant. Too bad that it didn't turned out to be a playtest as we expected, I would have liked to see powers all the way to 30. But I guess they weren't ready or something.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 1, 2008)

I like it.  It's captured the essence of druid, without seeming too over-the-top.  You can build a wildshape striker druid, or a spellcasting controller druid, or a little of both.  I'd expect some alternative paths to show up with animal companions later on, kind of like the ranger, and summoning can't be far behind.

What's with the level 2 utility shape lasting "until the end of the encounter", though?  That looks like an out-of-combat utility.


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## DeusExMachina (Dec 1, 2008)

Rechan said:


> However, it occurs to me that even if you're a cleric (or a druid) and you nab one of the other class's powers (via dilettante or multi-class), you still have to lug around a separate implement just to use it.




Yeah, this bothers me to a certain degree too. It makes multiclassing a problem if you don't get the right magic items from your DM or don't have the time to make them yourself.

Maybe there will be some feats at some point that allows you to use 1 implement for 2 power sources or something...


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## Baumi (Dec 1, 2008)

There is already another threat about it:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/246036-playtest-druid.html


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## andarilhor (Dec 1, 2008)

Hawke said:


> Kind of interestingly congruent to wizards two daily spells. Seems to make some sense... Druids have some more options with lower-level controllery stuff (aside from wizard cantrips) while Wizards have more options when it comes to big-bad-powerful spells.




Seems to me thats is the signature feature of the controller: More power options (not necessarily more powers as wizards need to choose between their extra dailies/utilities eveyday and druids need to choose what form they will use).

As someone in this thread said: I believe he will have feats to gain more abilities in beast form (fly, for example).


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## andarilhor (Dec 1, 2008)

Rechan said:


> As I think about it, the only races with wisdom benefits are elf and dwarf. And obviously, elf works. But I can't think of a suitable... flavor reason for a Dwarf druid, outside of underground stuff, and I don't see a lot of "Underground" looking powers (Wind and lightning and such, in a cave?). But that's just the min-maxer in me clashing with the roleplayer.




I have a theory than Devas and Half-orcs will have Wis bonus, as at least one type of Shifter.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 1, 2008)

Baumi said:


> There is already another threat about it:
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/246036-playtest-druid.html




I wanted to say something very similar, except with better orthography.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm not crazy about the new Barkskin.  It only lasts until the end of your next round?  Seems fairly worthless to me for an encounter power.  At least the Wizard's Shield spell is an interrupt ability so you can turn a hit into a miss.


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## Charwoman Gene (Dec 1, 2008)

roger said:


> i think i'm going to run off and create a warforged druid right now.
> 
> He shall be named optimus prime.
> 
> ...






ktulu said:


> fixed that for you.




trukk not munky!


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## Charwoman Gene (Dec 1, 2008)

Okay, I'm definitely changing "end of the encounter" to "End of the scene" or putting in a ritual to have the same effect....  Skittering sneak for five minutes... per day... ever...

*sigh*  I just watched my last hope of pulling my wife away from 3.5 go don the drain... *sob*


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

andarilhor said:


> I have a theory than Devas and Half-orcs will have Wis bonus, as at least one type of Shifter.



Oh, I'm sure they will. 

I just don't have access to those right now.


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## CapnZapp (Dec 1, 2008)

My initial question is this:

*When will we have access to at least six (6) levels of Druid?*

I'm about to start a 4E extended adventure, and I can't allow this class if all there will be to it during the next 4-6 weeks is three levels. The "risk" of leveling into levels 4, 5 or so during this time is imminent.


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## Baumi (Dec 1, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I wanted to say something very similar, except with better orthography.




What was wrong?


----------



## Psikus (Dec 1, 2008)

Nice article. The class looks good, and the level cap is not as strict as it seems. Even if only level 1 powers are listed, there's quite a few of them. You actually have enough different powers to create a (somewhat underpowered) level 10 character. Not an optimal scenario, but maybe good enough for a playtest.


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## Stogoe (Dec 1, 2008)

CapnZapp said:


> My initial question is this:
> 
> *When will we have access to at least six (6) levels of Druid?*



...March?


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## Baumi (Dec 1, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:


> Okay, I'm definitely changing "end of the encounter" to "End of the scene" or putting in a ritual to have the same effect....  Skittering sneak for five minutes... per day... ever...
> 
> *sigh*  I just watched my last hope of pulling my wife away from 3.5 go don the drain... *sob*




But encounter = scene and there is nothing in the power that limit the length otherwise.


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## Engilbrand (Dec 1, 2008)

Most classes have secondary roles. The Barbarian Playtest first mentioned it, but the other classes since then have made mention, too.
Fighter- Defender/Striker
Paladin- Defender/Leader
Rogue- Striker/Controller
Ranger- Striker/Controller
Cleric- Leader/Defender?
Warlock- Striker/Controller?
Wizard- Controller/Striker
Warlord- Leader/Defender

Barbarian- Striker/ Leader/Defender
Swordmage- Defender/Controller
Druid- Controller/ Striker/Defender


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## DeusExMachina (Dec 1, 2008)

So do dragonborn druids turn into something with even more claws and teeth or would they perhaps have to call it "civilized shape" and it turns them into something that looks vaguely human??? 

Just kidding. I could see having some fun with them becoming even more draconic, sprouting wings and or a tail, walking on all four. Don't know if anything furry would really work though...


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

CapnZapp said:


> My initial question is this:
> 
> *When will we have access to at least six (6) levels of Druid?*



Possibly Friday. The Ampersand article has more Druid stuff.


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## Jack99 (Dec 1, 2008)

Baumi said:


> There is already another threat about it:
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/246036-playtest-druid.html




Don't mind the German spelling-Nazi! 

But, since you asked, threat = something that is a danger to someone, thread = (amongst other) a succession of posts relating to the same subject.


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## Baumi (Dec 1, 2008)

LOL ... thx!


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 1, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Possibly Friday. The Ampersand article has more Druid stuff.



I have a suspicion that this was suppose to be part of the Ampersand article, and someone filling in over the Thanksgiving weekend dropped the ball. Hopefully an actual, full-blown playtest article is still on its way...


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## DracoSuave (Dec 1, 2008)

Call of the Beast + Bravura Warlord = Bravura can has no downside kthx.


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## CubeKnight (Dec 1, 2008)

There are only two things that I have to say:
1- The fluff of the primal spirit reminded me of Primate Murder.
2- The shapeless mass of claws, fur, and the like reminded me of Nrvnqsr.
That is all.


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## Pyrrhus of Epirus (Dec 1, 2008)

In general I like the Druid very much. Some concerns:

Did WotC just give level 1 characters/druids access to flight? at-will? during combat?

Did WotC just make it nigh impossible to bind/jail a level 1 character/druid? more so than an Eladrin?


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## Phaezen (Dec 1, 2008)

Pyrrhus of Epirus said:


> In general I like the Druid very much. Some concerns:
> 
> Did WotC just give level 1 characters/druids access to flight? at-will? during combat?
> 
> Did WotC just make it nigh impossible to bind/jail a level 1 character/druid? more so than an Eladrin?





Huh? Where did you see that?

Phaezen


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## Jack99 (Dec 1, 2008)

Pyrrhus of Epirus said:


> In general I like the Druid very much. Some concerns:
> 
> Did WotC just give level 1 characters/druids access to flight? at-will? during combat?
> 
> Did WotC just make it nigh impossible to bind/jail a level 1 character/druid? more so than an Eladrin?




No. You do not gain flight from wildshape


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## WalterKovacs (Dec 1, 2008)

Pyrrhus of Epirus said:


> In general I like the Druid very much. Some concerns:
> 
> Did WotC just give level 1 characters/druids access to flight? at-will? during combat?
> 
> Did WotC just make it nigh impossible to bind/jail a level 1 character/druid? more so than an Eladrin?




Unless there is some feat or power they didn't list ... no to both.

They have wild-shape at will, however remain your size and get no special abilities other than access to Beast powers. At level 2 you can become Tiny and thus get out of the prison, but that's really once per day. None of the spoiled powers give flight.


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## Phaezen (Dec 1, 2008)

WalterKovacs said:


> Unless there is some feat or power they didn't list ... no to both.
> 
> They have wild-shape at will, however remain your size and get no special abilities other than access to Beast powers. At level 2 you can become Tiny and thus get out of the prison, but that's really once per day. None of the spoiled powers give flight.




I have a feeling that if you are shackled the turning tiny won't help anyway, as equipment you are wearing shapes with you.

Phaezen


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## Cadfan (Dec 1, 2008)

To everyone who reminded me that you can only Wild Shape once per round: I know.

Here's what you can do:

You're in combat, right?

Minor action, wild shape.  Shift back a space taking you out of the threatened area around your opponent.

Move action, move.  With an elf this is potentially eight spaces.

Standard action, cast a spell.  Your spells are control, so they will hamper your foe's ability to pursue you.

Next round, wild shape, and charge back into battle.

You can vary it up as necessary, but basically, Druids have a partial form of the Shifty power.  It does everything that Shifty does, except it requires you to switch "attack modes" each time you use it.

Also, if your spell-centric druid gets caught in melee, he can shift one space, then wild shape and shift another space, and hopefully end up joining the melee in a flanking position.  Double shift.


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## Jack99 (Dec 1, 2008)

Yes, the shift + wildshape as a minor action is pretty powerful. And kind of ironic, since I am pretty sure Mearls once said that the shifty power of kobolds was too powerful for player characters.


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## Evilhalfling (Dec 1, 2008)

Flight, if going by established models will be a utility power.  Warlocks get a flying shadowform at level 10 that lasts till the end of the encounter. I think 1 round of flight with forced landings comes earlier. At lvl 1 with Air Gensi.    

I like the druid, and am especially grateful that it is an open look.  It is much broader than I thought possible. 

Anyway for those people demanding more specific animal forms - The ranger companions in MP show a decent, but still limited variation.  There should eventually be PP based on chosen animal, like there are for rangers. 
But not likely in the PHBII which will have to include at least a generalist wildshape focused class, and a weather mage focused class.  Primal Power is the most likely, but a large enough outcry may get one published for online subscribers, or in 3rd party products. 

perhaps as feats, based on MP ranger companions: 
Bear Form: -2 AC, -1 to hit, +1d6 damage with all beast form attacks. 
Wolf Form: +2 damage with Combat advantage. 
Snake Form: +1 AC or +1 to hit with OA. 

The APG clearly loses out on the wildshape area, but their nature priest has some lovely summon spells, based on existing wizard/cleric summon effects.  I am especially fond of Slashing Tree.


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## Oni (Dec 1, 2008)

Their at wills seem better than the wizards IMHO.  

The rest it seems to early to tell, Though for the level I don't think anything they have is as good as Flaming Sphere.  

I wonder how they'll work with paragon multiclassing since wildshape is an atwill but not strictly useful on its own.  

There must be something you'll be able to do with a dwarf lock/druid combo that'll be decent have to wait and see.


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## Cadfan (Dec 1, 2008)

Their at wills control better, but the damage tends to be lower, particular with the area of effect attacks.  The wizard is still master of blowing stuff up.


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> You can vary it up as necessary, but basically, Druids have a partial form of the Shifty power.  It does everything that Shifty does, except it requires you to switch "attack modes" each time you use it.



Shifty works every round. The druid has to spend one round to go INTO beast form in order to be able to come OUT the following round.


----------



## Oni (Dec 1, 2008)

I will say based on Wildshape alone, I think this is going to be my favorite version of the druid to date.


----------



## Cadfan (Dec 1, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Shifty works every round. The druid has to spend one round to go INTO beast form in order to be able to come OUT the following round.



Oh, you're right.

Still, that doesn't effect the fact that shifting out of beast form also lets you essentially escape melee for free (elf predator druid can travel 9 spaces that round and still attack).  And the round you switch to beast form and reenter melee, you don't need the shift as much.


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 1, 2008)

On the whole, I think it looks very promising. Particularly in the implementation of WildShape (BTW, 3e PHB2 had a shifter variant of the druid who could shift every round into generic shapes, and it worked pretty well overall. I think this implementation owes a little to that)

I'm really pleased to see such a wide choice of at-wills. If only the PHB had 8 at-wills per class we would have seen less complaints and/or problems about cookie-cutter PCs.

I'm a bit disappointed in some of the details. I don't like to see all those beast attacks targeting reflex. If a wolf attacks you it attacks vs AC. If a druid wildshaped into a beast attacks you I think that should attack AC too. If worried about the impact of not having a 'proficiency bonus', then I would have much preferred the beast attacks to have a +2 bonus figured in to them. Neater and more appropriate to my mind.

I'm a bit disappointed to see the power creep inherent in things like Flame Seed which really ups the ante for at-will minion killing (it has the autokill benefit of cloud of daggers, but over an 8 (or 9) times bigger area). Wind Prison also looks a bit suspect - hit the low reflex minion with it and when he moves all the giants (or high reflex quicklings) get knocked prone regardless of their defences.

Back to the utilities, two things I really like: Skittering Sneak for tiny animal infiltration, and the Obscuring Mist sustain: minor with the opportunity to grow the area effect. I think that is great, and ought to be back-filled into some of the PHB powers (like cloudkill, which really needs a boost).

Cheers


----------



## Plane Sailing (Dec 1, 2008)

One other thing - Primal Predators could lose out if they're not careful



> *Hit: *1d10 + Wisdom modifier damage. If at least one of the attacks hits, you can shift 2 squares.
> *Primal Predator: *The number of squares you can shift equals your Dexterity modifier.




If a primal predator has a Dex of 13 or less this power is actually worse for him!

Cheers


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## The Human Target (Dec 1, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> On the whole, I think it looks very promising. Particularly in the implementation of WildShape (BTW, 3e PHB2 had a shifter variant of the druid who could shift every round into generic shapes, and it worked pretty well overall. I think this implementation owes a little to that)
> 
> I'm really pleased to see such a wide choice of at-wills. If only the PHB had 8 at-wills per class we would have seen less complaints and/or problems about cookie-cutter PCs.
> 
> ...




Wind Prison would kill a minion, and thus the secondary knock prone effect would never take place.

But if for some reason there was a low level non-minion in the middle of  group of Giants, you could pull it off.

But then, Giants tend to have cruddy Reflexes anyway so you could just hit one and be done with it. 

I don't think Flame Seed is much better than Cloud of Daggers either, but it might be. Its area only gets greater if you use it on a large or larger creature, and then it only kills minions better if they're all adjacent to that creature. Plus it has less damage potential for using as an attack on non-minions. SO maybe its a wee bit better, but not much.


----------



## Caliber (Dec 1, 2008)

Also note that Fire Seed requires you to hit; Cloud of Daggers does not. I thought Druid seemed strong at first glance, but I think its actually pretty good having looked over it a few times.


----------



## Graethynne (Dec 1, 2008)

Interesting note ... the playtest now requires sign-in, but it still only goes up to level two.  Looks like WotC is coming back from Turkey Hangover.


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## Pseudopsyche (Dec 1, 2008)

Baumi said:


> But encounter = scene and there is nothing in the power that limit the length otherwise.



Player's Handbook, page 58: "If you use a power outside combat, it lasts for 5 minutes unless otherwise noted."  By default, Skittering Sneak lasts for at most 5 minutes per day.


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## Cadfan (Dec 1, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> If a primal predator has a Dex of 13 or less this power is actually worse for him!



This isn't the only power that works that way, nor the only class.  There seems to be a default assumption that your secondary stat will be at least a +2.

If you build your characters with the basic array (16/14/13/12/11/10), this default assumption is always true.


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## mach1.9pants (Dec 1, 2008)

Cool stuff, the at wills seem really quite good IMO.
My players eladrin Wiz would change to this if they did level 7! We are especially up to the idea of an elf primal predator, speed 8 and once per day 12! (assuming Wis/Dex 16 +2 each and the 2nd level Util Fleet Pursuit)


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## Graethynne (Dec 1, 2008)

*Level 3 attack powers are up.*

that is all.


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## Starbuck_II (Dec 1, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> One other thing - Primal Predators could lose out if they're not careful
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 What happens if you have a negative dex mod? Do you go shift backwards


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## Negflar2099 (Dec 1, 2008)

Am I the only one who saw the Preview of the druid and immediately thought of making a warforged/druid who transforms into mechanical beasts and is basically a transformer?

Yeah, it was probably was just me.


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## mach1.9pants (Dec 1, 2008)

Negflar2099 said:


> Am I the only one who saw the Preview of the druid and immediately thought of making a warforged/druid who transforms into mechanical beasts and is basically a transformer?
> 
> Yeah, it was probably was just me.



LOL most definitely only you...although I am 100% sure that my 3 and 4 yr old boys will be right with you!


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## Victim (Dec 1, 2008)

Negflar2099 said:


> Am I the only one who saw the Preview of the druid and immediately thought of making a warforged/druid who transforms into mechanical beasts and is basically a transformer?
> 
> Yeah, it was probably was just me.




I saw the same idea on RPG.net at least once, so I doubt it.


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## James McMurray (Dec 1, 2008)

Andor said:


> Oh, and what the heck is an *aftereffect*? New keyword there?




Only if you consider the PHB "new." 



Solodan said:


> Seems more of a teaser than a playtest.  Not much we can break with only level 1 and 2 abilitities.




Did they say it was supposed to be playtest stuff? I don't see that in the article or the dragon ToC. But I can't find the release calendar, so maybe they said it there.



DracoSuave said:


> Call of the Beast + Bravura Warlord = Bravura can has no downside kthx.




There's still a down side. Instead of "someone gets CA" it's "the druid's action is restricted to using one of his At Wills."



The Human Target said:


> I don't think Flame Seed is much better than Cloud of Daggers either, but it might be. Its area only gets greater if you use it on a large or larger creature




Fire Seed hits all adjacent squares and Cloud of Daggers hits a single square, so it's area is always bigger by at least eight to one.



Starbuck_II said:


> What happens if you have a negative dex mod? Do you go shift backwards




You get ridiculed for your build?


----------



## tuxgeo (Dec 1, 2008)

cwhs01 said:


> It looks very cool. It doesn't seem to have any summon spells at these levels, but a lot of wildshape goodies.
> Also, it seems to be a primary controller but with secondary class roles. Strange, but fair enough i guess.
> 
> Can someone compare it to the druid-clone in the advanced players guide?



I'll hit some of the basics here: 
APG's "Nature Priest" is Divine instead of Primal, and emphasises CHA more than DEX. Both classes use WIS and CON. 
Nature Priest gets Light Shield Proficiency, WotC Druid does not. 
Both classes get Simple Melee weapons; WotC Druid also gets Simple Ranged, while Nature Priest gets handaxe, longspear, and sling instead. 
Both classes can use Staffs; Nature Priests can use Fetishes (treat them as magic Wands), WotC Druids can use Totems. 
Nature Priest is less hardy: 10 + CON score HP, +4 HP/Level, 6 + CON mod. healing surges/day (rather than WotC Druid's 12, 5, 7). 
Nature Priest Skills List has Religion instead of Arcana, Dungeoneering instead of Diplomacy; total of 7 Skills instead of WotC Druid's 9 Skills. 
Rituals: Nature Priests get +CHA mod. to Nature checks on Nature Rituals; but it is not stated in the APG that they start play owning a Ritual Book. 
Nature Priests have a choice among 5 At-Will Prayers: one each doing Fire, Lightning, Thunder, Poison, or Cold damage, all attacking FORT or REF. 
Nature Priests may quickly run out of Minor Actions to sustain their powers: 2 of the 4 Level 1 Encounter Prayers are Sustain Minor, and 3 of the 4 Level 1 Daily Prayers are Sustain Minor, and 3 of the 4 Level 2 Utility Prayers are Sustain Minor, and 3 of the 4 Level 3 Encounter Prayers are Sustain Minor. . . .
Nature Priests do not Summon; they Conjure, instead. The conjured effects have no will of their own, and generally can neither make Opportunity Attacks, nor flank (because, with no OAs, they don't threaten on the enemies' turns), unless explicitly allowed to do so in a specific prayer. 

For further confusion, there is also a "Druid" class in the book "Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song" from Goodman Games; it gets Animal Companions (choose one and stick with it); Wildshape 1 per Tier per Day, into different shapes for different purposes (or even "Porpoises"); and could learn to Summon Treant at Level 5 (lasts until the end of the encounter, so you don't actually have to sustain it). This FH Druid uses the Summoning keyword, but I haven't seen where that is defined yet; it is explicitly stated that the summoned Animal Companions can be destroyed with a single hit (modified by luck); but the FH Druid can simply summon a new Animal Companion next encounter. (Disposable Animal Companions: Affinity with Nature or Callous Exploitation?)


----------



## Plane Sailing (Dec 1, 2008)

The Human Target said:


> I don't think Flame Seed is much better than Cloud of Daggers either, but it might be. Its area only gets greater if you use it on a large or larger creature, and then it only kills minions better if they're all adjacent to that creature.






Caliber said:


> Also note that Fire Seed requires you to hit; Cloud of Daggers does not. I thought Druid seemed strong at first glance, but I think its actually pretty good having looked over it a few times.




All you have to do is target something near minions (or even the ground near them if you are allowed, and I seem to remember discussion that clarified you can) - as long as you can get the minions into the effectively burst 1 around the target, they are all dead (unless someone shifts them out before their turn).

Cloud of Daggers only affects a single square, so it is about 1/9th as effective as a minion autokill/blockade which creates a zone affecting all the squares around the original target square.

That's why I consider it a better minion autokiller than cloud of daggers, Much bigger area.

Cheers


----------



## abyssaldeath (Dec 1, 2008)

Negflar2099 said:


> Am I the only one who saw the Preview of the druid and immediately thought of making a warforged/druid who transforms into mechanical beasts and is basically a transformer?
> 
> Yeah, it was probably was just me.




There was someone on the gleemax forum that suggested the same thing. He named him Optimus Prime. The someone else changed it to Optimus Primal.


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## thalmin (Dec 1, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> All you have to do is target something near minions (or even the ground near them if you are allowed, and I seem to remember discussion that clarified you can) - as long as you can get the minions into the effectively burst 1 around the target, they are all dead (unless someone shifts them out before their turn).
> 
> Cloud of Daggers only affects a single square, so it is about 1/9th as effective as a minion autokill/blockade which creates a zone affecting all the squares around the original target square.
> 
> ...



Burst is only if you hit the original target.


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## Oni (Dec 1, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> All you have to do is target something near minions (or even the ground near them if you are allowed, and I seem to remember discussion that clarified you can) - as long as you can get the minions into the effectively burst 1 around the target, they are all dead (unless someone shifts them out before their turn).
> 
> Cloud of Daggers only affects a single square, so it is about 1/9th as effective as a minion autokill/blockade which creates a zone affecting all the squares around the original target square.
> 
> ...




So we've got:

Cloud of Daggers: 100% chance to kill 1 minion.  
Scorching Burst: 50/50 chance to kill any given minion in a burst1 area.
Fire Seed: 50/50 chance to either kill all or none of the minions in a burst1 area.


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## Phaezen (Dec 1, 2008)

After rereading the article, I am getting a definate force of nature vibe from the druid, rather than a tree hugging hipp vibe.  Me likey.

The level 3 powers are now up:
Battering Claws - nice for pushing oppenents across the battlefield.  YOur friendly neighbourhood strikers and defenders will like this.
Call Lightning - gives the opponenets a choice, do you take the penalty to hit, or do you take the damage.
Predators Flurry - the images of the druid dashing across the battlefield flatening foes is awesome.
Tundra Wind - a bit of close support firepower.

The druid's non-Beast Form powers seem to have a large damned if you do, damned if you don't component.

Defenders and melee based strikers should enjoy working with a well played druid.

Phaezen


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## Cadfan (Dec 1, 2008)

I don't think it makes sense to evaluate a power's strength purely as a minion killer.  That's only one of the purposes of the powers in question.  You will almost inevitably find yourself using these powers against non minions at least some of the time.


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

The minion killableness of Flame Seed isn't as important, to me, as the zone-creation aspect. I likes me some battlefield control, and covering flanks. 

As far as "Killing minions", it's far more on par with Scorching Burst. Same area of effect. 

The only upside to Cloud of Daggers is that you can target a single enemy who seems interested in staying in one place (such as the target of a fighter's Combat Superior, or a Viper Strike). Not to mention that the single target in the center it hits isn't in the zone, but is merely attacked for d6 damage. Also, Cloud of Daggers can cover a single space, which is much better aiming (like say, covering a door).


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## Zsig (Dec 1, 2008)

I found it rather amusing that right now, the best Guardian Druids (stat-wise) are the Dwarves.


Oh, and Booming Blade from the Swordmage followed by Storm Spike from the druid. To move or not to move?


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## thecasualoblivion (Dec 1, 2008)

The Druid is among the most versatile classes we've seen in terms of playstyle. From what we've seen of the first three levels, I can see a stand firm and slug it out melee type Druid, a hit and run specialist, an inside out ranged melee hybrid, and a full time ranged spellcaster. You can combine any or all of them. All of these can be achieved via powers, with no real demands on your ability score array. 

Druids are definitely the best hybrid melee/ranged concept they've done for 4E, as other current choices are either demanding stat-wise or require heavy feat investment or both. 

I forsee this class being a favorite.


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## Vael (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm already chomping at the bit to play one of these. If Ampersand will allow me to play up to level 10 ... my Wizard PC may develop a death wish.

There's a lot of versatility in this class, and a lot of fun. The ranged AoE strikes aren't as damaging as the Wizard's, but they're solid Controller fun.


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

Hm. I'm racking my brain to come up with some good feats for the druid.

So far, the only ones that leap out are:
Improved Init
Burning Blizzard/Raging Storm
Toughness/Durable
Defensive Mobility (For your skirmisher builds)
Powerful Charge

 This is the folly of having all these feats specific to classes.


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## yesnomu (Dec 1, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> Some line by line critique, and then some thoughts at the end to sum up.
> 
> [druid shifting when going from beast to humanoid]
> This is absolute _genius._ This is going to be the hidden MVP of the entire Druid class.
> ...



I was running in to post this. It's really a beautiful idea, and makes me really excited to play a balanced druid who can do both. I want higher levels, right effing now!

Druids have always been my favorite class, and I don't foresee this changing.

Also: Savage Rend is _excellent_. Your OAs push enemies into the fighter?! Too awesome.


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## Lord Mhoram (Dec 1, 2008)

Negflar2099 said:


> Am I the only one who saw the Preview of the druid and immediately thought of making a warforged/druid who transforms into mechanical beasts and is basically a transformer?
> 
> Yeah, it was probably was just me.




Well considering the Warforged Dragon Article has shoulder guns for Warforged that are built it, that really isn't going that far out.

And yeah I thought of that too.


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## Kishin (Dec 1, 2008)

Man, Wizards are hurting after this. The Druid is an infinitely more interesting class to play already, and I've only seen 3 levels of it.

Controller is such a weird role.

I do, however, really like this here druid.


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## mach1.9pants (Dec 1, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Hm. I'm racking my brain to come up with some good feats for the druid.
> 
> So far, the only ones that leap out are:
> Improved Init
> ...



I would really hope that PHB2 has lots of feats specific to the classes contained, nullifying this problem. Heck Wizards have not much that is useful to spend their feats on (after leather armour proficiency!)...Burning Bliz etc is so nerfed compared to wep focus. IMC I allow Implement focus, that balances it IMO.


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## Rechan (Dec 1, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> I would really hope that PHB2 has lots of feats specific to the classes contained, nullifying this problem.



Oh, I'm certain they will. Just sayin'. There's a dearth of non-racial, non-class specific feats.

I hope PHBII has _more general feats_, in addition to class specific ones.


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## mach1.9pants (Dec 1, 2008)

Yep I agree


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## doctorhook (Dec 2, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> I would really hope that PHB2 has lots of feats specific to the classes contained, nullifying this problem. Heck Wizards have not much that is useful to spend their feats on (after leather armour proficiency!)...Burning Bliz etc is so nerfed compared to wep focus. IMC I allow Implement focus, that balances it IMO.



Don't forget _Arcane Power_ the month after!

_PH2_ = March '09
_Arcane Power_ = April '09


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## Rechan (Dec 2, 2008)

Man, I'm making a druid, and I'm just so challenged picking my at-wills. I keep second guessing everything.

Also, the at-wills/encounters I want to pick is based off attacking reflex. Which makes me wary when I'm going to battle skirmishers.


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## yesnomu (Dec 2, 2008)

For at-wills, I like Chill Wind, Flame Seed, Pounce and Savage Rend. A mix of both modes, useful things to do (sliding!) in each, hitting two defenses, not too situational.

I'm not really happy with any of the level 1 encounters, though. Nothing I like quite as much as Icy Terrain. Flash Freeze is notable for being a level 1 encounter immobilize, though.

Faerie Fire is a badass daily, as is Fire of Life. Man, Fire of Life on a bunch of minions is like Flame Strike and Mass Cure Light Wounds together. Very nice.


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## Phaezen (Dec 2, 2008)

Dragon #370 Table of Contents

Looks like we will be getting a bit more Druid info on Friday:



			
				Dragon #370 Table of Contents said:
			
		

> *Ampersand*
> By Bill Slavicsek
> Bill previews more of the druid and looks further ahead to another 2009 release.




Other interesting things to note, Druid and Invoker tags have been changed from Playtest to Preview.  Makes sense as the book is most likely in final editing or at the printers by now.

Phaezen


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## Baumi (Dec 2, 2008)

Phaezen said:


> Dragon #370 Table of Contents
> Other interesting things to note, Druid and Invoker tags have been changed from Playtest to Preview.  Makes sense as the book is most likely in final editing or at the printers by now.




This might be, but a Preview is just an Advertisement and quite useless for a Dragon Subscriber. Level 1-3 is to low for most ongoing campaigns and new Campaigns will surely not include a Class since you soon outgrow that level and that player would have to change his Character. 

It's nice to have something to quell the curiosity about the new classes, but I want Articles that can actually be used by Players or the GM.


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## firesnakearies (Dec 2, 2008)

Just . . . wow.


Is it April 1 already?


*I, for one, welcome our new druid overlords!*


Look, I'm not saying that *4E* is like WoW, or any of that.  I'm just saying that _IF_ the head R&D guys at WotC _DO happen _to play WoW, I'm willing to wager on what their main characters' class is.  _"Sweet, I finally got my Wildfury Greatstaff!  Now I can get back to work on Player's Handbook 2."_


I don't like to use phrases like, "most blatant pandering ever" or "WTF overpowered much?" or "wizards are obsolete now" . . . but come ON.


Imagine if you took one class that already exists, and then just made it totally better in every way.  Or, just read this druid preview.


Swordmages didn't make fighters look like an endangered species.

Artificers and bards don't seem to make clerics and warlords look like sorry jokes.

Barbarians don't seem to make rogues and rangers look like future unemployment line rejects.

But druids?  Seriously, if this is what the class looks like when *PHB2* goes to print, I'm going to be appalled.


This looks to me like we have a SERIOUS case of _"developer's favorite class" syndrome_.


Also, apparently _dwarves_ are the most natural choice for druids now?  Nice.


I've been pretty ardently defending every mechanical AND flavor/lore choice that's been made for *4E*, even the controversial things and the radical departures from the older versions.

But this druid is just plain nonsense.



"Sup, Mr. Wizard guy?  I'm a lot like you, except, I kinda make you look like a chump.  Pretty much, anything you can do, I can do better.  _Cloud of Daggers_?  Neat, I guess.  I've got something just like that, except mine affects NINE squares at-will, instead of just one.  Kinda makes me feel like I'm cheating, frankly.  I also get a lot more hit points and better armor than you, oh, and I can use the same stat that gives me more hit points to also raise my AC."

"Plus I can smash face in melee whenever I want, if I get _bored_ with casting way better spells than you from range.  If I was any kind of _reasonable_ class, I'd have to, like, _pick_ between two main stats for my melee or ranged focus, but heh, I'm a druid, so just Wisdom does it all for me.  All of my melee at-will attack powers hit non-AC defenses, and I use my ranged-spell stat for them, and oh yeah, _they're ALL basic attacks_.  Heh."

"I can auto-kill a pile of minions without an attack roll, using just a level 1 at-will power.  You?  Not only can I set up colossal zone of auto-damage at-will, I've got a whole ton of other at-wills and encounter powers that I can use, at range OR in melee, to slide or pull people into, through, and back into my huge at-will deathfire zone."

"Did I mention I can shred guys in melee, and have better AC and hit points than anyone besides the defenders?  Yeah.  Did I mention that I'm sliding and/or slowing people with my melee _basic attacks_, all the time, in addition to full damage, against a _weak defense_?  Yeah, I'm a _controller_, by the way.  Like you!  Well, not really.  I DO cast ranged AoEs and zones at-will, when I'm not busy doing cooler stuff in melee than the fighters can do."

"I've also got more at-wills than most other two classes combined.  Your little spellbook thing is okay, I guess, but I get to actually _do_ more stuff in reality, not just in theory _"oh, I COULD have memorized that other spell today..."_  I've got *frost shock*, too.  Er, frost "flash" -- whatever we're calling it.  _Call of the Beast_ is just so absurd for an at-will that I'm not even going to go into that one."

"Also, are you handing out _free_ healing to _multiple_ party members, _without requiring surge use_, WHILE killing a bunch of minions at range, Mr. Wizard?  At 1st level?  Oh no, I guess you're not.  Dude, you're kinda weak.  Wait'll you see my higher-level powers, my special feats, my special items, my paragon paths, my epic destinies.  I'll be free-action-shifting into a ridiculous flying form before you can finish reading *PHB2*.  Watch me."

"By the way, I'm a dwarf, so it's pretty intuitive that I'd be the ideal exemplar of druidism, don't you think?  When _I_ think of preserving nature, I think of a race of obsessive strip-miners with countless pollution-spewing forges, personally.  How about you?"

"I guess I _technically_ don't make EVERY other class obsolete.  I mean, we could still use a healer or two, I suppose.  And maybe rangers and rogues could still be slightly useful.  But I do know for sure that we don't need YOU anymore, Dumbledore.  So kick rocks, kid.  But don't kick 'em _too_ hard, because I'm a _dwarven druid_ and that'll make me angry.  And you _know _damn well you can't take me."



*The 4E Druid:* _Because apparently people at organized-play competitive *D&D* tournaments were complaining about having to spend time trying to decide what class to play.



_*Again:  I, for one, welcome our new druid overlords!



*(Is the new logo on the *PHB2* just going to say _Dungeons & Druids_, or what?)



*$*


----------



## RangerWickett (Dec 2, 2008)

As a counterpoint, looking at the druid, I now wish all the other classes were made this powerful, dynamic, and interesting. The fact that the druid has more fun stuff it can do than any other class is not a problem with the druid being "too good." It's a problem with the other classes being "too boring."

Alas, I know WotC won't do it, but I'd love it if the druid would become the baseline of class power level.


----------



## avin (Dec 2, 2008)

Playing Wow since classic all I can say is: "lulz, nerf dr00dz" ... who at Wotc hates Wizards...? o0


----------



## Jack99 (Dec 2, 2008)

firesnakearies said:


> Just . . . wow.
> 
> 
> Is it April 1 already?
> ...




WoW druids heal quite well.


----------



## Mengu (Dec 2, 2008)

I think there is a lot of knee jerk reaction here.



firesnakearies said:


> "Sup, Mr. Wizard guy? I'm a lot like you, except, I kinda make you look like a chump. Pretty much, anything you can do, I can do better. _Cloud of Daggers_? Neat, I guess. I've got something just like that, except mine affects NINE squares at-will, instead of just one. Kinda makes me feel like I'm cheating, frankly. I also get a lot more hit points and better armor than you, oh, and I can use the same stat that gives me more hit points to also raise my AC."




Just to point out, Cloud of Daggers will kill a minion, even on a miss. Flame Seed does absolutely nothing on a miss. Also Cloud of Daggers typically does 1d6+Int+Wis damage against non-minions, which is more than Flame Seed, but flame seed affects multiple targets, so they are not easy to compare.



firesnakearies said:


> "Plus I can smash face in melee whenever I want, if I get _bored_ with casting way better spells than you from range. If I was any kind of _reasonable_ class, I'd have to, like, _pick_ between two main stats for my melee or ranged focus, but heh, I'm a druid, so just Wisdom does it all for me. All of my melee at-will attack powers hit non-AC defenses, and I use my ranged-spell stat for them, and oh yeah, _they're ALL basic attacks_. Heh."




Wizards have a number of close attack options, but that's not their schtick. What way better range spells are you talking about? Scorching Burst is still the king of at-will range AoE damage.



firesnakearies said:


> "I can auto-kill a pile of minions without an attack roll, using just a level 1 at-will power. You? Not only can I set up colossal zone of auto-damage at-will, I've got a whole ton of other at-wills and encounter powers that I can use, at range OR in melee, to slide or pull people into, through, and back into my huge at-will deathfire zone."




If you are talking about Flame Seed again, you still have to hit with the initial attack to kill those minions. Scorching burst is a much more reliable way to kill minions since more rolls will average out to a few kills with each casting instead of all or nothing like Flame Seed.

The area for Flame Seed does get bigger against large opponents. I'll give you that. I'm not entirely sure it's worth the hassle to try and slide stuff into the zone for just Wisdom damage (hardly "deathfire zone"), especially at higher levels.



firesnakearies said:


> "Did I mention I can shred guys in melee, and have better AC and hit points than anyone besides the defenders? Yeah. Did I mention that I'm sliding and/or slowing people with my melee _basic attacks_, all the time, in addition to full damage, against a _weak defense_? Yeah, I'm a _controller_, by the way. Like you! Well, not really. I DO cast ranged AoEs and zones at-will, when I'm not busy doing cooler stuff in melee than the fighters can do."




Warlocks typically have better hit points, and ways of getting temporary hit points. Ditto for Barbarians. Archer rangers will typically have better AC.



firesnakearies said:


> "I've also got more at-wills than most other two classes combined. Your little spellbook thing is okay, I guess, but I get to actually _do_ more stuff in reality, not just in theory _"oh, I COULD have memorized that other spell today..."_ I've got *frost shock*, too. Er, frost "flash" -- whatever we're calling it. _Call of the Beast_ is just so absurd for an at-will that I'm not even going to go into that one."




I'm not sure why you think Call of the Beast is absurd. It's not even a power I would pick for a druid I'd want to play. It will frequently do no damage and have no effect. Not my idea of an absurd power.



firesnakearies said:


> "Also, are you handing out _free_ healing to _multiple_ party members, _without requiring surge use_, WHILE killing a bunch of minions at range, Mr. Wizard? At 1st level? Oh no, I guess you're not. Dude, you're kinda weak. Wait'll you see my higher-level powers, my special feats, my special items, my paragon paths, my epic destinies. I'll be free-action-shifting into a ridiculous flying form before you can finish reading *PHB2*. Watch me."




The healing from Fires of Life is a nice little bonus, but little is the keyword there. As a daily power for someone who is trying to have a secondary role of leader, it's down right pathetic. 



firesnakearies said:


> "By the way, I'm a dwarf, so it's pretty intuitive that I'd be the ideal exemplar of druidism, don't you think? When _I_ think of preserving nature, I think of a race of obsessive strip-miners with countless pollution-spewing forges, personally. How about you?"




Yeah ok. This one threw me off too at first, but I'll get over it. I can see a dwarf Thorn Whipping an enemy closer, changing into a boar-like creature, and shredding them in melee.


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## Jhaelen (Dec 2, 2008)

While it looks like the 4E druid will be a really neat class, there's something I dislike about it:

The Beastform powers don't fit my mental image of a druid at all. They make me think of a 3E Psychic Warrior or a multiclassed Egoist but never of a druid.

If I had to guess, I'd say this implementation of the druid was probably mostly inspired from WoW rather than either the D&D druid of previous editions or what little is known about real-world druids. Of course, I can't be entirely sure, since I'm not a WoW player, but maybe others here are and can offer some insight?

It bears repeating: I don't say that this is necessarily a bad thing. It's just that these beastshape powers don't say 'druid' to me. The other controller-like powers are a lot better and more fitting, imho.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 2, 2008)

Jhaelen said:


> It bears repeating: I don't say that this is necessarily a bad thing. It's just that these beastshape powers don't say 'druid' to me. The other controller-like powers are a lot better and more fitting, imho.



D&D Druids have never been a simulation of real world druids anymore than clerics simulate real world religious figures. However, the "I can turn into anything!" aspect is very reminiscent of higher level 1st ed. druids to me.

One power I think that needs to be included to recall the druids of editions past would be one which allows the character to spend a healing surge to regain HPs when shifting from beast to humanoid.


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## Jack99 (Dec 2, 2008)

Jhaelen said:


> If I had to guess, I'd say this implementation of the druid was probably mostly inspired from WoW rather than either the D&D druid of previous editions or what little is known about real-world druids. Of course, I can't be entirely sure, since I'm not a WoW player, but maybe others here are and can offer some insight?




WoW druids have 3 specific forms and are good healers - that's two defining characteristics that don't fit.


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## Nahat Anoj (Dec 2, 2008)

Jhaelen said:


> If I had to guess, I'd say this implementation of the druid was probably mostly inspired from WoW rather than either the D&D druid of previous editions or what little is known about real-world druids. Of course, I can't be entirely sure, since I'm not a WoW player, but maybe others here are and can offer some insight?



When the 4e druid can assume Defender-like or Striker-like forms, I think of WoW's bear and cat form a bit.  Howevever, WoW druids can also be fairly effective healers, and I don't really see that in the 4e druid.

I think if you tend to see 4e as "too MMO," you'll probably think the 4e druid is too much like the WoW druid, because the 4e druid has been designed according to 4e's principles.  But otherwise, I'm not seeing too dramatic a shift from previous editions.  The spirit and nature of the class is retained quite well.


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 2, 2008)

Mengu said:


> Just to point out, Cloud of Daggers will kill a minion, even on a miss. Flame Seed does absolutely nothing on a miss. Also Cloud of Daggers typically does 1d6+Int+Wis damage against non-minions, which is more than Flame Seed, but flame seed affects multiple targets, so they are not easy to compare.




Since the Errata/Updates says



> Target [Addition]
> Player’s Handbook, page 57
> Add the following sentences to the end of the first paragraph: “Some powers
> include objects as targets. At the DM’s discretion, a power that targets a creature can also target an object, whether or not the power lists an object as a potential target.”




So it is possible (at DM's discretion) for a druid to target something near a bunch of minions and thus get off the minion-killing goodness of flame seed without having to actually hit a difficult, dodging target. Aim it at the easy-to-hit object and watch the minions around it shrivel.

Won't work if the DM likes saying 'No', but I'd guess for most people that I see expecting considerable latitude from DMs on a range of stuff related to spells, it is pretty easy to justify lobbing the acorn by aiming at the ground near the minions.

Cheers


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## firesnakearies (Dec 2, 2008)

Mengu said:


> Just to point out, Cloud of Daggers will kill a minion, even on a miss. Flame Seed does absolutely nothing on a miss.





Ah, you're absolutely right about this.  Somehow, it entirely escaped my notice that Flame Seed wouldn't create the zone if the initial attack missed.  Yeah, that does make the power a LOT less obscene. Good call.  I was thinking that you got the zone of minion doom automatically, for some reason.  I need to read more carefully, apparently.




> What way better range spells are you talking about? Scorching Burst is still the king of at-will range AoE damage.





Scorching Burst may do a few extra points of damage, but I don't see that as being very relevant, really.  Wizards and druids are controllers.  Their spells, in my opinion, should be trying to do one of two things:  kill minions outright, or hamper the movement or positioning of the real monsters so as to put them at tactical disadvantage.  Hence, controlling the battlefield.

I think that sliding all of the targets 1 square (Chill Wind) is vastly better than the few extra points of damage which will largely be insignificant to tougher monsters anyway.  Sliding them into zones, into difficult terrain, into the melee range of your buddies, out of attack position, into position for further AoE attacks, off of cliffs or into other hazards, etc.  Sliding a whole group of enemies around while ALSO doing minion-killing damage, at-will, is a sweet power.  I think Chill Wind trumps Scorching Burst handily for the controller role.




> The area for Flame Seed does get bigger against large opponents. I'll give you that. I'm not entirely sure it's worth the hassle to try and slide stuff into the zone for just Wisdom damage (hardly "deathfire zone"), especially at higher levels.





It doesn't seem like much of a hassle when the druid has so many powers that pull or slide already.  You're hitting them with stuff that does damage itself, plus sliding them in and out of the fire.  The fact that the fire doesn't hurt allies is also really beefy, too.  But you're right, it's not quite as good as I originally thought.




> The healing from Fires of Life is a nice little bonus, but little is the keyword there. As a daily power for someone who is trying to have a secondary role of leader, it's down right pathetic.





I wouldn't call Fires of Life _little_.  It could potentially pass out 90 points of free, _non-surge-using_ healing to your party, at 1st level.  Who else could do anything even remotely close to that?  I know that's a pretty unlikely scenario, but it's possible.  And really, in nearly any case in which you'd actually choose to use it, you'd probably end up getting more healing out of it than any other 1st level power gives out.

Even if I only have a 14 Constitution, and only kill two targets with it right away, and no others take the ongoing damage, that's 14 points of free healing, which is probably more than most people will get back from a Cure Light Wounds, which is a level 2 daily power which doesn't also damage an AoE worth of enemies.  And you could easily kill more than two targets, and/or have higher than a 14 Con.  I think it's much more likely that I could get 25 or 30 points of healing out of that power, _at LEAST_, every time I use it, USING NO SURGES, which flatly _blows away_ any other low-level healing power.  Oh, AND I'm killing minions and/or hurting real monsters at the same time.

Fires of Life is _amazing_.



But yeah, I was overreacting.  Mostly being a bit over-the-top on purpose.  I still do think that for most players, throwing personal flavor preferences out of the equation, the choice between a druid or a wizard as the group's controller will be a bit unfairly one-sided in the favor of druids now.

Not everyone will feel this way, of course.



$


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## amysrevenge (Dec 2, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Won't work if the DM likes saying 'No', but I'd guess for most people that I see expecting considerable latitude from DMs on a range of stuff related to spells, it is pretty easy to justify lobbing the acorn by aiming at the ground near the minions.




Yeah, but then you get to my favourite cheese of all, which I got from force orb.

Player: "I target the ground with Force Orb"
DM: "Uhhh, OK, go ahead"
Player: (rolls) "Awesome, I hit!"
DM: (chuckling) "Good for you.  Next."
Player: "Not so fast.  I do..." (rolls) "... 8 damage to every foe adjacent to the ground that I can hit the Reflex defense of."
DM: "Huh?"
Player: "Yeah, any foe adjacent to the 'the object' I just hit - in other words, the ground.  You know that dude back in town who kicked my butt in the tavern?  He's probably adjacent to the ground right now.  What was his Reflex defense again?  How about the evil overlord three kingdoms over?  He's not sleeping in bunkbeds, is he?"


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## firesnakearies (Dec 2, 2008)

amysrevenge said:


> Yeah, but then you get to my favourite cheese of all, which I got from force orb.
> 
> Player: "I target the ground with Force Orb"
> DM: "Uhhh, OK, go ahead"
> ...






I laughed.


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## Rechan (Dec 2, 2008)

I find it funny about the whole "This is WoW" argument. Not a few hours ago, a player - who also plays WoW - complained that the Druid's form isn't specific _enough_; he wanted form-specific powers, like his WoW Druid. 

I also don't think the 4e druid can "tank". Facilitate a striker in a sense, yes, but they don't have the AC, HP or marking power of a "tank", nor the extra damage of a striker. Woe be you who uses the druid as your front line.


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## firesnakearies (Dec 2, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I also don't think the 4e druid can "tank". Facilitate a striker in a sense, yes, but they don't have the AC, HP or marking power of a "tank", nor the extra damage of a striker. Woe be you who uses the druid as your front line.





Maybe not the AC or HP, but Call of the Beast makes Divine Challenge look like a child's petulant pout of marking.

And a dwarf druid with a 20 Con could have pretty darn respectable HP and AC, too.  3 less HP than an equivalent fighter, and equal AC to a fighter in scale mail with a light shield.  That's hardly "woe" worthy.


EDIT:  Dwarf druid with a 20 Con in Beast Form with the Staff Fighting feat starts with a 19 AC, which is as good as scale mail plus a heavy shield.    As soon as he can pick up Two Weapon Defense, he's got a 20, before anything special like magic items, buffs, stat increases, paragon path features, paragon feats, and so on.  (Which means, from there on out, he's got the same AC as paladins and fighters.)

EDIT 2:  And all of this is BEFORE we see all of the druid-specific feats and other goodies which will invariably end up making them BETTER tanks than fighters.  Mark my words.


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## Cadfan (Dec 2, 2008)

firesnakearies said:


> I wouldn't call Fires of Life _little_. It could potentially pass out 90 points of free, _non-surge-using_ healing to your party, at 1st level. Who else could do anything even remotely close to that? I know that's a pretty unlikely scenario, but it's possible.



Through similar logic, with an 18 intelligence, Scorching Burst can do 36 more points of damage than Chill Wind.  And Fireball is an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction that potentially deals 147d6+392 damage every time my party's wizard casts it.


> And really, in nearly any case in which you'd actually choose to use it, you'd probably end up getting more healing out of it than any other 1st level power gives out.



I wouldn't make that assumption.  Its a burst 1.  You need as many targets in there as possible.

If you miss a target in the burst, you get half of 1d6+wis damage.
If you hit a target, but it makes a save against the ongoing damage before it dies, an ally heals your Con mod in damage.
If you hit a target, and it dies before it can save against the ongoing damage, an ally heals 5 plus your Con mod.

That's a lot of things to come together at once inside a Burst 1.  The damage is alright, so I can't say the power is bad, but if you're looking for more than a slight healing bonus this really isn't the power for you.

Your ideal situation for healing is to bomb a couple of minions with it, but even with, say, four minions, you're going to miss about 2.  So you're going to get to heal 10+2[Con].  Of course, as payment for that healing, you're killing the same number of minions with a daily power that you could have killed with Chill Wind.  Which is sort of a waste of a daily power that deals 1d6+Wis +5 ongoing fire damage.

And its not really fair to compare a daily attack power to a daily utility power.  They're really not on the same power scale.  Beacon of Hope has the potential to heal far, far more hit points than this spell ever will.  All you need is to have two allies in the (far larger) burst of Beacon of Hope and an 18 wisdom cleric can heal 18 damage, plus whatever gains you get from Weakening your enemies, plus whatever gains you get from improving your other healing powers for the duration of the fight.


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## Cadfan (Dec 2, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I also don't think the 4e druid can "tank". Facilitate a striker in a sense, yes, but they don't have the AC, HP or marking power of a "tank", nor the extra damage of a striker. Woe be you who uses the druid as your front line.



I'm kind of worried that the druid will find himself tanking even though he doesn't mean to.  He's loaded with melee powers that slow and daze.

Slowing an enemy who's adjacent to you makes it more likely to attack you.

Same with dazing an enemy who's adjacent to you.

You get the idea.  I think that survival may require careful use of defender allies and shifting away from foes who can't move and attack in the same round.


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## MrMyth (Dec 2, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> I'm kind of worried that the druid will find himself tanking even though he doesn't mean to. He's loaded with melee powers that slow and daze.
> 
> Slowing an enemy who's adjacent to you makes it more likely to attack you.
> 
> ...




I think that is the biggest advantage of the free shift when popping out of Wild Shape. Round 1, cast a spell, wild shape. Round 2, move into melee, debuff an enemy, then wild shape - escaping melee, and leaving the enemy unable to attack you. It doesn't work with slow, but it does work with daze/immobilize/prone. I really see this as key to the melee controller concept, without turning into a (fragile) defender in the process.


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## MrMyth (Dec 2, 2008)

Baumi said:


> This might be, but a Preview is just an Advertisement and quite useless for a Dragon Subscriber. Level 1-3 is to low for most ongoing campaigns and new Campaigns will surely not include a Class since you soon outgrow that level and that player would have to change his Character.
> 
> It's nice to have something to quell the curiosity about the new classes, but I want Articles that can actually be used by Players or the GM.




This month's Dragon has the same number of articles and columns as usual, entirely outside of the previews. I prefer to view the previews as bonus content, which I'm more than happy to get - and many others seem pleased with as well, rather than simply useless. I certainly agree that I wouldn't want this to replace all the usual content in the magazine - but as that doesn't seem to be happening, I'm not too worried.


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## Cadfan (Dec 2, 2008)

MrMyth- You're absolutely correct, I think.


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## Zsig (Dec 2, 2008)

Hum... Slowing and Sliding people with Opportinuty Attacks seems rather sexy to me.

Yeah, I guess theoretically they could make some interesting pseudo-Defenders, more than that, only seeing them playing in game to make a judgement.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 2, 2008)

I wonder how multi-classing into Druid will be handled. Without allowing Wildshape as part of the initial multi-class feat, that's a whole category of powers which characters dipping into Druid won't have access to.  But how would you limit Wildshape to be on par with other multi-class feats if you did include it?


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 2, 2008)

Sir Brennen said:


> I wonder how multi-classing into Druid will be handled. Without allowing Wildshape as part of the initial multi-class feat, that's a whole category of powers which characters dipping into Druid won't have access to.  But how would you limit Wildshape to be on par with other multi-class feats if you did include it?



Hmm... Well we have Multi-Class ones like Sneak Attack where you can use it once per-encounter. Perhaps it could be like Wild Shape is usable once Daily. So you could use all the Beast Powers you got in a fight, but as soon as you transform back into human form thats it.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 2, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:


> Hmm... Well we have Multi-Class ones like Sneak Attack where you can use it once per-encounter. Perhaps it could be like Wild Shape is usable once Daily. So you could use all the Beast Powers you got in a fight, but as soon as you transform back into human form thats it.



That would have the effect of making any Beast Form Encounter powers the character takes also reduced to Dailies, and any At-Wills... well, still At-Wills, but only for one encounter. Seems additionally limiting for the multi-classer.

Seems most limits to Wildshape would have this compounding effect on the Beast Form powers. Maybe you just won't be able to get Wildshape without being a primary Druid. Which kinda bites, because there's so many cool character concepts that could be built around a shape-changing non-druid character...


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## Cadfan (Dec 2, 2008)

That would be tough to do, because your beast form wouldn't be able to access any of your regular powers, and at the time you initially took the multiclass feat, would have zero beast powers unless the feat itself granted you one.  And if it did that, it would grant it per encounter since that's the usual pattern.

I think its more likely that druid multiclassing will focus on the non beast form powers.


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## thecasualoblivion (Dec 2, 2008)

I would expect a multiclass Druid to either get Wildshape At-Will for one combat per day(similar to how the Swordmage multiclass gets the AC bonus for one combat) and an At-Will beast power to use during it, or to get a non-beast Druid At-Will as an encounter power similar to what the Wizard and Warlock get.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 2, 2008)

thecasualoblivion said:


> I would expect a multiclass Druid to either get Wildshape At-Will for one combat per day(similar to how the Swordmage multiclass gets the AC bonus for one combat) and an At-Will beast power to use during it, or to get a non-beast Druid At-Will as an encounter power similar to what the Wizard and Warlock get.



Except the Swordmage doesn't have powers a multi-classer might pick up later that are based on the AC bonus. If Wildshape were limited to one encounter, then any _other_ At-Will and Encounter Beast Form powers the character selects will be limited as well. You'd essentially turn any such Enounter power into a Daily. A wimpy Daily.


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## thecasualoblivion (Dec 2, 2008)

Sir Brennen said:


> Except the Swordmage doesn't have powers a multi-classer might pick up later that are based on the AC bonus. If Wildshape were limited to one encounter, then any _other_ At-Will and Encounter Beast Form powers the character selects will be limited as well. You'd essentially turn any such Enounter power into a Daily. A wimpy Daily.




The only other way to do it would to give multiclass Druids a Beast at-will and Wildshape until the end of your next turn 1/encounter.


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## Rechan (Dec 2, 2008)

firesnakearies said:


> Maybe not the AC or HP, but Call of the Beast makes Divine Challenge look like a child's petulant pout of marking.



It forces the target(s) to melee attack the closest one. That's not really defendering, so much as it is borking the ranged guys. Besides, only the Swordmage gets to do marks at a distance and let it stay at a distance. 

Not to mention that Call of the Beast is an area attack, which is causing OAs if you cast it in melee. 

Call of the Beast is very situational. 



> And a dwarf druid with a 20 Con could have pretty darn respectable HP and AC, too.



Getting 20 con (even with a dwarf) is going to hurt all your other stats, unless you rolled a nat 18. And then you're putting that nat 18 in your CON instead of WISDOM, which is what you're using to hit everything with. So, a 20 con just isn't realistically achievable.



> EDIT:  Dwarf druid with a 20 Con in Beast Form with the Staff Fighting feat starts with a 19 AC/quote]
> Flaw with your logic. This assumes that you're allowed to benefit from a double weapon when you're in beast form. The text of wildshape says your equipment is sucked into your body. So you don't really have an off hand to facilitate the defensive nature of the double weapon, and nor are you really "wielding" your staff.
> 
> It's a serious questionable notion. I can't imagine a DM letting you get away with that. You might, when not in Beast form, but _not_ while in it.


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## Ximenes088 (Dec 2, 2008)

As I recall, it specifically states that you can't use the properties or powers of weapons when you're in beast form, and your equipment becomes part of your body when you merge, except that you drop everything except implements you can use. One could try to argue that staves are an implement you can use, but using it a _weapon_ is pretty clearly forbidden to me in a RAW sense. And in a RAI sense, trying to claim defensive bonii for a combat style for a weapon that doesn't even exist when you're in beast form... that seems pretty silly to me.


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## Rechan (Dec 2, 2008)

Actually, can someone tell me the usefulness of 'Call of the Beast'? I don't really 'get' its purpose.


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## tuxgeo (Dec 3, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Actually, can someone tell me the usefulness of 'Call of the Beast'? I don't really 'get' its purpose.



My guesses as to the purpose of "Call of the Beast": 
1. It targets the WILL defense, which the other 7 Druid At-Will Attacks do not; so it's more useful against Zombies and other low-will attackers. 
2. It deprives any targets it hits of the ability to gain Combat Advantage; this is a salient part of the Controller role, because it reduces the combat effectiveness of the enemy. 
3. It imposes a penalty that the enemies know about, which only takes effect on hit targets that do not attack the nearest of your allies; this also reduces the combat effectiveness of the enemy, because they now take damage if they do not attack the nearest Fighter or Paladin or Ranger or Rogue or Warlord instead of surging _en masse_ to attack the Cleric or the Druid or the Wizard -- i.e. the notably squishy Leaders and Controllers. (If you can dull the tactical edge that the enemy gets from swarming toward the softest targets, go for it!) 
Any damage this attack does is entirely secondary. The point of this evocation appears to be doing crowd-control instead of doing damage. (Area burst 1 against massed enemies won't control a very BIG crowd, but it's probably enough for an At-Will.)


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## Rechan (Dec 3, 2008)

tuxgeo said:


> My guesses as to the purpose of "Call of the Beast":
> 1. It targets the WILL defense, which the other 7 Druid At-Will Attacks do not; so it's more useful against Zombies and other low-will attackers.



That I pegged. 



> 2. It deprives any targets it hits of the ability to gain Combat Advantage; this is a salient part of the Controller role, because it reduces the combat effectiveness of the enemy.



This is a bit of a mixed bag for me. 

Call of the Beast hits all creatures in the area. So if you _don't_ want to zap your allies, this means you use it when the enemies are Over There, not Over Here next to your friends. So, the only chance the guys Over There will have combat advantage against your friends Over Here is if it's a surprise round (which isn't useful for the power), the enemy is hidden (good luck hitting them), or your friends are down on the ground (under a status condition, prone, etc). So that limits the usefulness of it right there.

The only other instance that comes to mind is in melee with your allies, such as flanks, or again, status effect + melee. Which means that you're going to have to hit your friends in order to stop the monsters from getting CA. And if your friends can't attack their nearest enemy (for whatever reason), then they're taking damage.

Not to mention that the only monsters where CA is all that significant is the lurker and skirmisher. For other monster roles, the CA is just giving a +2 to hit. 

It's far too situational for my tastes, for an At-Will. I can't see even using it every fight, because its usefulness depends on the makeup of the monsters you're fighting and their place on the battlefield, and your allies positions. It's a headache. 



> 3. It imposes a penalty that the enemies know about, which only takes effect on hit targets that do not attack the nearest of your allies; this also reduces the combat effectiveness of the enemy, because they now take damage if they do not attack the nearest Fighter or Paladin or Ranger or Rogue or Warlord instead of surging _en masse_ to attack the Cleric or the Druid or the Wizard -- i.e. the notably squishy Leaders and Controllers.



Of course, to do that they have to rush past the defensive line. If they're at your flank, or the nearest allies are not your defensive line, then you're even encouraging the enemy to go after the squishies. (Also, I think the strikers are squishier than leaders; the latter has better armor).


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## Vael (Dec 3, 2008)

I'd have to agree, Call of the Wild seems too situational ... I'd sooner use the other AoE attacks. Chill Wind is solid, although attacking Fort makes it harder to land, and Flame Seed is really good.

Overall though, the Druid has some really solid at-wills. I can't wait to see the whole class.


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## WalterKovacs (Dec 3, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Since the Errata/Updates says
> So it is possible (at DM's discretion) for a druid to target something near a bunch of minions and thus get off the minion-killing goodness of flame seed without having to actually hit a difficult, dodging target. Aim it at the easy-to-hit object and watch the minions around it shrivel.
> 
> Won't work if the DM likes saying 'No', but I'd guess for most people that I see expecting considerable latitude from DMs on a range of stuff related to spells, it is pretty easy to justify lobbing the acorn by aiming at the ground near the minions.
> ...




True, however it follows the bag of rats rule. People were complaining about the warlock's ability to auto-kill minions with dual wielding rods.

Ultimately, a DM can allow the druid to have a way to instantly kill minions. However that is the DM deciding to make the druid "better than the wizard". It is not a feature that is intentional ... this is the kind of power that fits perfectly for "bag of rats". Also, targeting an object is different than targeting "the ground". (Also, isn't everything standing on the ground adjacent to it?) The DM might allow the druid to attack a specific object in the square, but won't allow an empty square to be attacked.

EDIT:

Re-Multiclassing

With Martial Power they've introduced more multi-class options. It may be possible that each build of Druid would have their own multiclass options. Also, they may have a paragon path feast for someone that multiclasses "all the way" into druid getting the wild shape at-will.

It's possible that they give it 2/encounter (i.e. you can become a beast, and go back to being human 1 per encounter). Similar to the divine challenge which you can use 1/encounter, and it lasts until the end of the encounter, but you lose the option of transfering, etc ...


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 3, 2008)

WalterKovacs said:


> The DM might allow the druid to attack a specific object in the square, but won't allow an empty square to be attacked.



I'd rule that if the goal is to destroy/disable an object, like the rope holding up a chandelier, then it can be a target. Especially if the result is something cinematic and cool 

"I attack the ground!" is right up there with "I attack the darkness!"

However, I could seen a pretty reasonable simulationist argument that Flame Seed is pretty much a grenade attack, which you usually target a location near the creature, not the creature itself. In fact, the fluff for Flame Seed even says: "When it strikes the ground..."


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 3, 2008)

I would never allow that because one of the balancing factors of the power is that if you miss it does nothing. How do you miss the ground?


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## Rechan (Dec 3, 2008)

Sir Brennen said:


> I'd rule that if the goal is to destroy/disable an object, like the rope holding up a chandelier, then it can be a target. Especially if the result is something cinematic and cool
> 
> "I attack the ground!" is right up there with "I attack the darkness!"



I confess that my preferred use of Flame Seed would be making areas dangerous for enemies to walk into. Similar to how one would use cloud of daggers to make stepping into  adoorway dangerous. The ability to make terrain threatening is really appealing to me.

So I would be attacking the ground. 

Another thing I noticed is that Chill Wind is a super thunderwave. It effects the same area and attacks the same defense, but it's a ranged attack, and you can slide the target as opposed to just push them.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 3, 2008)

WalterKovacs said:


> Re-Multiclassing
> 
> With Martial Power they've introduced more multi-class options. It may be possible that each build of Druid would have their own multiclass options. Also, they may have a paragon path feast for someone that multiclasses "all the way" into druid getting the wild shape at-will.
> 
> It's possible that they give it 2/encounter (i.e. you can become a beast, and go back to being human 1 per encounter). Similar to the divine challenge which you can use 1/encounter, and it lasts until the end of the encounter, but you lose the option of transfering, etc ...



Yeah, someone on the WotC boards mentioned it could be something like this... 1/Encounter with no duration limit.  It would still need a Beast Form power or the Wildshape itself is basically useless. 

I could see Wildshape 1/encounter + 1 Beast Form At-will usable once per encounter as part of a Druid MC feat. Having the At-will still actually function at will might be too good for a starting MC feat, especially since certain classes might have some strong synergies might emerging when switching back and forth from a condition-causing power and their normal form powers.

Plus, the MC character also gets the benefit of the 1 square shift when they change back to human. And the disguise factor of Wildshape is a benefit which hasn't been mentioned much. Posing as a stray dog or hiding in a herd of swine could have its benefits.

The 1/Encounter-til-end-of-encounter solution resolves the problem I mentioned upthread of additional Power Swap feat and Paragon multiclassing powers not being usable as frequently as intended. It would, however, mean the player has to think more strategically about when they use Wildshape in an encounter and if/when they should shift back.


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## Shroomy (Dec 3, 2008)

Sir Brennen said:


> I'd rule that if the goal is to destroy/disable an object, like the rope holding up a chandelier, then it can be a target. Especially if the result is something cinematic and cool
> 
> "I attack the ground!" is right up there with "I attack the darkness!"
> 
> However, I could seen a pretty reasonable simulationist argument that Flame Seed is pretty much a grenade attack, which you usually target a location near the creature, not the creature itself. In fact, the fluff for Flame Seed even says: "When it strikes the ground..."




I think that in most cases, attacking the ground would fall under the "legitimate targets - bag of rats" rule in the DMG.


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 3, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> I think that in most cases, attacking the ground would fall under the "legitimate targets - bag of rats" rule in the DMG.




It's funny, because in other threads I've had a hard time for being too restrictive in how I'd allow spells to be used, but this seems to be a fairly straightforward case of throwing a magic grenade at a specific location to me (probably requiring that someone target a prominent rock on the ground where he wants it to burst, using the p42 table to allocate a DC). Quite different to a 'bag of rats' situation IMO.

But there you go.

wrt to Chill Wind, I personally don't think it is as good as Thunderwave - the big, big advantage of thunderwave is that it is a close attack power, and better than that it is a "get away from me" close attack power.

It seems from the little we've seen before that they might have decided to balance the Druid a little by limiting his access to close attack powers (which seems a good thing to me - if he wants to attack people close to him he has got his beast powers.)

Cheers


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## Shroomy (Dec 4, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> It's funny, because in other threads I've had a hard time for being too restrictive in how I'd allow spells to be used, but this seems to be a fairly straightforward case of throwing a magic grenade at a specific location to me (probably requiring that someone target a prominent rock on the ground where he wants it to burst, using the p42 table to allocate a DC). Quite different to a 'bag of rats' situation IMO.
> 
> But there you go.




I see what you're saying, but it just seems like a way to game the system to me.  Still, we are strictly speaking about minion killing here, so I probably shouldn't be too harsh and I wouldn't want to quash player creativity.  Luckily, the moderate DCs on pg 42 probably aren't too far off from the average minion's Reflex defense.


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## Jhaelen (Dec 4, 2008)

abyssaldeath said:


> How do you miss the ground?



I wished I could figure it out but it must be possible: It's the secret to learning to fly!


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## firesnakearies (Dec 5, 2008)

Missing the ground isn't as ridiculous as it sounds.

Go outside and mark a fairly large red X on the ground, then walk back 20-50 feet away from it.

Now pitch baseballs at that X.  No underhand tossing, no gentle lobbing.  A direct, fast throw.

Throw about 100 of them, and see if you hit that X every time.  Most people will miss it quite a few times.  I'll bet I'd only hit it about 50% of the time, or less.  A very good pitcher would probably hit it 95% or more of the time, but he could still miss occasionally.

Now have a couple of your friends run around and spar in between you and that X on the ground 20-50 feet away, and keep trying to hit it.

Now try to hit it quickly while angry dogs are running toward you barking and growling.

Not as easy as it sounds anymore, eh?



Sure, if you're aiming at an adjacent square, I'd say there's no need for a roll. That's easy.  But further away, I'd give the ground a base AC/Reflex of 8, plus you'd take the penalty for attacking a "prone" target with a ranged attack, plus I'd make it especially easy for the piece of ground to get cover or superior cover if anything or anyone was in the way, because it has no height component, no bulk to aim at.

So you could easily end up having to hit a 10 or 12, maybe even a 15, virtual Reflex score, to target a piece of ground.  That's still not very tough, but at least it provides some chance to miss, which doesn't seem unlikely to me, and it also maintains the game balance aspect.

So no "free" minion-killing without a roll.  But still pretty easy, because you're just trying to hit an X on the ground.


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## CubeKnight (Dec 5, 2008)

firesnakearies said:


> Missing the ground isn't as ridiculous as it sounds.
> 
> Go outside and mark a fairly large red X on the ground, then walk back 20-50 feet away from it.
> 
> ...



How 'bout this:
Base AC: 10
Effective Dex 0: -5
Prone Bonus: +2 (It was +2 right? Away from books right now)
Cover: +2 (if there's an enemy blocking your way)

Total: 10-5+2+2 = 9


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## Cadfan (Dec 5, 2008)

Or you could simplify, define "hitting the ground" as "hitting the space of ground a person of Reflex Defense X is standing upon," and use the reflex defense of the person in question as the target number.


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## firesnakearies (Dec 5, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> Or you could simplify, define "hitting the ground" as "hitting the space of ground a person of Reflex Defense X is standing upon," and use the reflex defense of the person in question as the target number.





I think the point of the discussion is when you want to hit a square that doesn't have anyone standing in it.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 5, 2008)

firesnakearies said:


> So you could easily end up having to hit a 10 or 12, maybe even a 15, virtual Reflex score, to target a piece of ground.  That's still not very tough, but at least it provides some chance to miss, which doesn't seem unlikely to me, and it also maintains the game balance aspect.



It doesn't really maintain balance, as the ground's Reflex doesn't scale with level, so higher level characters will have an easier time aiming at the ground than at a level appropriate opponent.


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## Fanaelialae (Dec 5, 2008)

I know that it isn't a perfectly simulationist answer (in all fairness though, 4e isn't especially simulationist to begin with) but in the case of something like Fire Seed targeting an empty space, I would make the AC/Reflex/whatever of the space equal to lowest value of the creatures adjacent to the space being targeted.

Making it a flat value means that higher level characters will only fail on a nat 1 (though a fair arguement could be made that by those levels there are so many auto-damage powers that having Fire Seed act as one 95% of the time really isn't an issue).  If you set it at the lowest value of the creatures inside the AoE, it scales, which is preferable to me (and if you really need a simulationist explanation, you can say that it represents the chance that those adjacent to the square will bat the seed aside mid-flight).

If the player simply wanted to create damaging terrain (targeting a square that had no adjacent enemies) I'd make it a flat AC 10, since whether it has any effect at all will be fairly situational, and creating damaging terrain seems to be a controller specialty.


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## firesnakearies (Dec 5, 2008)

Fanaelialae said:


> I know that it isn't a perfectly simulationist answer (in all fairness though, 4e isn't especially simulationist to begin with) but in the case of something like Fire Seed targeting an empty space, I would make the AC/Reflex/whatever of the space equal to lowest value of the creatures adjacent to the space being targeted.






Hmm, I like this idea.



$


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## falcarrion (Dec 5, 2008)

Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear. Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair. Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't fuzzy was he.

If thats not a druid changing back to human form then nothing is.


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## Nahat Anoj (Dec 5, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Actually, can someone tell me the usefulness of 'Call of the Beast'? I don't really 'get' its purpose.



Apologies if this has already been answered to your satisfaction (or if this has already been mention), but Call of the Wild seems like a power designed to help support defenders, especially ones like paladins or swordmages who aren't as sticky as fighters.

Cast this on a bunch of enemies near the paladin, and the paladin's ability to take the hate and protect the squishies goes up.  It's almost as if the paladin used Divine Challenge on all the monsters in that area.


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## yesnomu (Dec 5, 2008)

I would really just say that you have to target an enemy or Flame Seed doesn't work at all. I'm pretty sure the attack roll requirement for the zone is built into the power to maintain balance with things like Scorching Burst and Cloud of Daggers.

If a player asks me why, I'd say that the seed works by taking the life energy of the creature hit and turning it into a fiery zone around it. Or whatever.


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