# Willow - Official Teaser Trailer



## trappedslider (May 26, 2022)

Also looks good for something no one asked for.


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## J.Quondam (May 26, 2022)

I've always been a little bummed that not much ever came of _Willow_ beyond the original movie, so this tickles my warmfuzzies. Nice to see it's a sequel.  Not entirely sure what to expect, tbh, but I'm looking forward to it.


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## deganawida (May 26, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> I've always been a little bummed that not much ever came of _Willow_ beyond the original movie, so this tickles my warmfuzzies. Nice to see it's a sequel.  Not entirely sure what to expect, tbh, but I'm looking forward to it.



There was a novel in the 90s.  I think it was by Chris Claremont (of X-Men fame) and Lucas (well, listed as coauthor).  I didn't read it.


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## Davies (May 26, 2022)

deganawida said:


> There was a novel in the 90s.  I think it was by Chris Claremont (of X-Men fame) and Lucas (well, listed as coauthor).  I didn't read it.




Yes, Claremont wrote a trilogy of fantasy novels that are a sequel to the film, _Chronicles of the Shadow War_. They were awful, and I really, _really_ hope this series doesn't reference them.


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## Gradine (May 26, 2022)

Willow is great and this looks good and I'm very excited


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## deganawida (May 26, 2022)

Davies said:


> Yes, Claremont wrote a trilogy of fantasy novels that are a sequel to the film, _Chronicles of the Shadow War_. They were awful, and I really, _really_ hope this series doesn't reference them.



I had a feeling that the one I saw would be awful, which is why I skipped. I enjoyed his work on X-Men, but read one of his novels and thought it was terrible. Guess I made the right call!


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## J.Quondam (May 26, 2022)

Davies said:


> Yes, Claremont wrote a trilogy of fantasy novels that are a sequel to the film, _Chronicles of the Shadow War_. They were awful, and I really, _really_ hope this series doesn't reference them.



Ah.. Sounds like a good thing I missed those, then!


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 26, 2022)

The 90s were a fairly barren time for fantasy films, for a variety of reasons. The 80s were a boom time for fantasy cinema, and in the more po-faced 90s lots of people were eager to turn their backs on the cultural trends of the prior decade.

Perhaps it's best that Willow didn't get a sequel until now. I can't help but imagine what could've been with the dodgy CGI that was everywhere back in the 90s.



J.Quondam said:


> I've always been a little bummed that not much ever came of _Willow_ beyond the original movie, so this tickles my warmfuzzies.




The trailer looks pretty cool. I have vivid memories of seeing Willow in the theater, and will be glad to see the sequel finally.


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## TwiceBorn2 (May 26, 2022)

Davies said:


> Yes, Claremont wrote a trilogy of fantasy novels that are a sequel to the film, _Chronicles of the Shadow War_. They were awful, and I really, _really_ hope this series doesn't reference them.



I was given the first novel as a gift when it first came out... and I was unable to finish it. I loved the original film, but was so disappointed by that book that I gave it away and never read the rest of the trilogy.


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## Parmandur (May 26, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Also looks good for something no one asked for.



Speak for yourself! I've been waiting since I was in grade school, lol.


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## John R Davis (May 26, 2022)

Nice


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## BookTenTiger (May 26, 2022)

Willow was my sick day movie as a kid. When I was home sick from school I'd always wind up watching it.

Recently I researched it as part of a series of "weird movie nights" I have with friends.

And you know what? It's a really fun movie! I love the creativity, and how it's not afraid to get weird. The whole troll / dragon fight is wonderful, the magic is unhinged ("You're all pigs!"), and the characters are wonderfully charismatic.

I'm looking forward to the series!


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## Benjamin Olson (May 26, 2022)

We have truly entered an age where any underappreciated property could get brought back.


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## jdrakeh (May 26, 2022)

I'm more excited for this than I am for the D&D movie, honestly.


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## J.Quondam (May 26, 2022)

BookTenTiger said:


> Willow was my sick day movie as a kid. When I was home sick from school I'd always wind up watching it.
> 
> Recently I researched it as part of a series of "weird movie nights" I have with friends.
> 
> ...



It was certainly inspirational in all sorts of ways. I think I've put a cache of _acorns of petrification_ in most every campaign I've run since I saw the movie.


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## deganawida (May 26, 2022)

Just hit me the biggest problem aside from no Val with the trailer: No brownies! I loved the brownies as a kid.


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## Davies (May 26, 2022)

deganawida said:


> Just hit me the biggest problem aside from no Val with the trailer: No brownies! I loved the brownies as a kid.



I'm pretty sure that the tiny people at 1:07 are meant to be brownies or brownie adjacent.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 27, 2022)

jdrakeh said:


> I'm more excited for this than I am for the D&D movie, honestly.




I might be more excited for this than all the Marvel and Star Wars series, and I love all of those so far.


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## GreyLord (May 27, 2022)

I haven't really been all that interested in the streaming options on Disney+, but I am in this one.


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## jdrakeh (May 28, 2022)

I'm also watching The Punisher (formerly on Netflix) on Disney +, so there's that.


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## Ryujin (May 28, 2022)

Rewatching the movie right now, to get into the mood.


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## Dausuul (May 28, 2022)

I'm a little worried that this one will make the mistake of taking itself too seriously. I don't see much humor, or indeed any, in the trailer. The original was a brilliant mix of deadly serious themes and hilarious comedy, and would not have worked at all without both elements.

But if it manages to hit the tone of the original, it might be awesome.

Also, General Kael remains my all-time favorite display of D&D hit points in action.


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## aco175 (May 28, 2022)

We still quote the movie in my games.
"You are great."
"Help, I'm being pecked to death."


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## Paul Farquhar (May 28, 2022)

deganawida said:


> There was a novel in the 90s.  I think it was by Chris Claremont (of X-Men fame) and Lucas (well, listed as coauthor).  I didn't read it.



It was pretty grimdark considering the original film.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 28, 2022)

Predicts influx of halfling wizards.


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## MNblockhead (May 28, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> I've always been a little bummed that not much ever came of _Willow_ beyond the original movie, so this tickles my warmfuzzies. Nice to see it's a sequel.  Not entirely sure what to expect, tbh, but I'm looking forward to it.



Oh good. I'm glad it is not just a remake.


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## Zaukrie (May 28, 2022)

Looks like DnD movie everyone has wanted. Also, why is there a balance of good and evil in every universe? Why can't there be more good? It's a terrible message that we are destined to have evil.


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## aco175 (May 28, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Looks like DnD movie everyone has wanted. Also, why is there a balance of good and evil in every universe? Why can't there be more good? It's a terrible message that we are destined to have evil.



Evil just has better PR online.


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## Umbran (May 28, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Looks like DnD movie everyone has wanted. Also, why is there a balance of good and evil in every universe? Why can't there be more good? It's a terrible message that we are destined to have evil.




There's a novel by Eve Forward, called _Villains By Necessity_ that covers why...


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## Mezuka (May 28, 2022)

Fingers crossed they get it right. We watch Willow every Christmas break in PJs. Such a classic and the best D&D movie ever made!


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## Zaukrie (May 28, 2022)

Umbran said:


> There's a novel by Eve Forward, called _Villains By Necessity_ that covers why...



It's still fiction. Or are you suggesting we just give up on having a better world in real life?


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## Umbran (May 28, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> It's still fiction. Or are you suggesting we just give up on having a better world in real life?




I am not sure of your intent, but this comes across to me as inconsistent.

The complaint is that _fiction_ commonly has this balance.  But when I bring up a piece that talks about why, you discard it as _fiction_ without apparently considering its content.  And then talk about giving up on the real world.

My response is thus - either fiction speaks to the real world, or it does not.  If you are concerned about how fiction doesn't reflect reality, then don't discard things as fiction.


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## Zaukrie (May 28, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I am not sure of your intent, but this comes across to me as inconsistent.
> 
> The complaint is that _fiction_ commonly has this balance.  But when I bring up a piece that talks about why, you discard it as _fiction_ without apparently considering its content.  And then talk about giving up on the real world.
> 
> My response is thus - either fiction speaks to the real world, or it does not.  If you are concerned about how fiction doesn't reflect reality, then don't discard things as fiction.



I'm asking why fiction always says this, when if that was real, life would be awful. Why can't fiction allow for a better world over time?


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## Ryujin (May 28, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I'm asking why fiction always says this, when if that was real, life would be awful. Why can't fiction allow for a better world over time?



A "better world" has no conflict. No conflict means not a lot of interesting story potential.


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## Davies (May 28, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Looks like DnD movie everyone has wanted. Also, why is there a balance of good and evil in every universe? Why can't there be more good? It's a terrible message that we are destined to have evil.



All life depends on the end of other life. Until that changes, evil is inevitable.


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## Zaukrie (May 28, 2022)

Davies said:


> All life depends on the end of other life. Until that changes, evil is inevitable.



You can have death without evil.


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## Zaukrie (May 28, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> A "better world" has no conflict. No conflict means not a lot of interesting story potential.



Where did I say perfect? I said better. I'm sad that no one seems to think anything matters in fiction. If you can never make the world better, why bother trying to make it better?


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## Davies (May 28, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> You can have death without evil.



No, you cannot. To harm another is evil. It may be a lesser evil (self-defense) or a greater one (deliberate murder.) But it is always evil.

Also, you are setting up the strawman "nobody seems to think anything matters" when the actual fact is "everyone has a different perspective than I do".


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## Zaukrie (May 28, 2022)

Davies said:


> No, you cannot. To harm another is evil. It may be a lesser evil (self-defense) or a greater one (deliberate murder.) But it is always evil.
> 
> Also, you are setting up the strawman "nobody seems to think anything matters" when the actual fact is "everyone has a different perspective than I do".



If you can't make the world better, why try? There's no strawman there. I'm asking, if the world must be in balance, and you make your part better, you make someone else's worse. Seems like that's actually bad. So, why? Why try?

People die of all kinds of non violent things. You can have death without evil


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## Davies (May 28, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> People die of all kinds of non violent things. You can have death without evil



Did anything you ate today die of natural causes? The wheat was harvested, the fruit was plucked from the tree, the vegetables yanked from the earth. Life depends on the end of other life.


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## Zaukrie (May 28, 2022)

Davies said:


> Did anything you ate today die of natural causes?



I'm out. Enjoy the movie. In sure I will.


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## Ryujin (May 28, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Where did I say perfect? I said better. I'm sad that no one seems to think anything matters in fiction. If you can never make the world better, why bother trying to make it better?



I didn't say "perfect" either. And have you never read or watched anything that had a happy ending? That's the world getting "better."


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## Storyteller Hero (May 28, 2022)

Apparently Val Kilmer will also return at some point as Madmartigan in the Willow series.

Val Kilmer Will Return As Madmartigan In ‘Willow’ TV Series, Show Creators Say

I've been wondering since Kilmer has been recovering from a tracheotomy surgery for throat cancer treatment that damaged his voice.

This could mean we'll see Warwick and Val together again on the big screen after so many years. I really, really, really hope they don't pull a Star Wars sequel trilogy [REDACTED] and kill off Val's character before a reunion happens with Willow.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 28, 2022)

Taking a human life is evil because we have sentience. A wolf killing a rabbit is not evil. A human killing a deer is not evil, in most situations. If we ever found another species to have developed enough to have even some sentience, killing that animal would be elevated to evil as well.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 28, 2022)

Storyteller Hero said:


> Apparently Val Kilmer will also return at some point as Madmartigan in the Willow series.
> 
> Val Kilmer Will Return As Madmartigan In ‘Willow’ TV Series, Show Creators Say
> 
> ...




No, I don't think he is physically in it, as the articles talk about him not being available to fly in to where they were filming. And his voice is about gone too. So maybe they went and did a couple of remote shots with him and went back to the movie and edited together a couple of lines of dialogue to use for a scene.


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## Storyteller Hero (May 28, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> No, I don't think he is physically in it, as the articles talk about him not being available to fly in to where they were filming. And his voice is about gone too. So maybe they went and did a couple of remote shots with him and went back to the movie and edited together a couple of lines of dialogue to use for a scene.




He might not physically be in season 1 because he couldn't come to Wales during lockdowns, but depending on how things go, a possible season 2 might see Val come back on screen as Madmartigan.


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## Ryujin (May 29, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Taking a human life is evil because we have sentience. A wolf killing a rabbit is not evil. A human killing a deer is not evil, in most situations. If we ever found another species to have developed enough to have even some sentience, killing that animal would be elevated to evil as well.



Dolphins have saved humans and other animals from predators, like sharks. They have also been known to torture other animals to death, apparently for the fun of it.


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## MarkB (May 29, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Looks like DnD movie everyone has wanted. Also, why is there a balance of good and evil in every universe? Why can't there be more good? It's a terrible message that we are destined to have evil.



For what it's worth, I sympathise. There's a similar notion in Star Wars, that the Force is the universe trying to understand and balance itself, and no matter who comes out on top in any particular conflict, it will continue to manifest strong Force users who will be drawn to the light or dark side, to tip the balance back again.

I found that notion utterly depressing - the idea that there could never be a lasting peace in the setting, that conflict was fundamentally inevitable. Pretty much everyone else seemed to think it was awesome.


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## Ath-kethin (May 29, 2022)

This series looks pretty cool! I've been a huge fan of the movie since I saw it in theaters as a kid.

When I was writing an article series for Kobold Press a couple of years ago I even did one that was magic items inspired by (read: straight ripped off from) various items in the movie.

The Sorcery Stop: Relics of the Lost Fey - Kobold Press


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## Tonguez (May 29, 2022)

So the baby is now 34? And Willow an accomplished scorcerer

looks like the DnD movie Ive been waiting for


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## Tonguez (May 29, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Taking a human life is evil because we have sentience. A wolf killing a rabbit is not evil. A human killing a deer is not evil, in most situations. If we ever found another species to have developed enough to have even some sentience, killing that animal would be elevated to evil as well.



Animals are sentient, they can feel pain, have emotional responses to sensory stimuli including fear. If sentience is what makes killing humans evil then so is killing bambi.

however that whole conception of killing is evil is flawed, since on a cosmic scale a single life is meaningless - Life is just the way the planet recycles elemental particles since fundamentally we are all just left over star dust swirling through infinity


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## Gradine (May 29, 2022)

MarkB said:


> For what it's worth, I sympathise. There's a similar notion in Star Wars, that the Force is the universe trying to understand and balance itself, and no matter who comes out on top in any particular conflict, it will continue to manifest strong Force users who will be drawn to the light or dark side, to tip the balance back again.
> 
> I found that notion utterly depressing - the idea that there could never be a lasting peace in the setting, that conflict was fundamentally inevitable. Pretty much everyone else seemed to think it was awesome.



Kreia did nothing wrong


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## ART! (May 29, 2022)

Finally watched the trailer, and...that looks pretty good! I was generally interested already, but that hit all the right buttons. It looks magical and sweeping.

How great is it too see Warwick David back in this role?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 29, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Animals are sentient, the can feel pain, have emotional responses to sensory stimuli including fear. If sentience is what makes killing humans evil then so is killing bambi.




I keep forgetting this place is still part of the internet and even here a person has to be super precise or the nitpicking starts. Humans have self-analysis and abstract reasoning, other species do not.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 29, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Dolphins have saved humans and other animals from predators, like sharks. They have also been known to torture other animals to death, apparently for the fun of it.




Which is why a lot of people consider them and porpoises the closest to human-level thinking and awareness and could make that leap to our level with a little prodding, like in David Brin's Uplift books.


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## Umbran (May 29, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Animals are sentient, they can feel pain, have emotional responses to sensory stimuli including fear. If sentience is what makes killing humans evil then so is killing bambi.




So, there is no broad agreement on your first assertion - in that we don't have a broadly accepted definition of "sentience".  Indeed, feeling pain and having emotional responses are not in most of the definitions I can find.

Most often, "sentience" is considered to require some (not thoroughly agreed upon) level of abstract reasoning and self-awareness - an animal that _is aware that it is thinking_, and aware that others are thinking, too.

Feeling fear, and feeling pain may simply be part of stimulus-response loops, without any _consideration_ of the pain or fear that we expect when we say, "sentient being".


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## Tonguez (May 29, 2022)

Umbran said:


> So, there is no broad agreement on your first assertion - in that we don't have a broadly accepted definition of "sentience".  Indeed, feeling pain and having emotional responses are not in most of the definitions I can find.
> 
> Most often, "sentience" is considered to require some (not thoroughly agreed upon) level of abstract reasoning and self-awareness - an animal that _is aware that it is thinking_, and aware that others are thinking, too.
> 
> Feeling fear, and feeling pain may simply be part of stimulus-response loops, without any _consideration_ of the pain or fear that we expect when we say, "sentient being".




no sentience is the capacity to have feelings in response to stimulus, self awareness is a measure of sapience which while related is still independent.

Moreover the measure of self awareness and abstract reasoning is still not well understood but the ability to recognise self, to solve problems and to distinguish between different _categories of things_ has been observed in pigeons, crows, dogs, pigs, babboons and of course apes.

whether the capacity to distinguish between categories is limited to concrete particulars or can be abstracted to general concepts (ie Imagination) is the big question of what actually distinguishes Human sapience from mere sentience


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## DrunkonDuty (Jun 9, 2022)

I thought this was a thread about the new Willow series...

Which I will most definitely watch.


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## wicked cool (Jun 9, 2022)

im intrigued by the trailer . Warwick Davis is the selling part for me and the party formation at the end.

However it does look at times like a teen movie .


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## Mannahnin (Jun 9, 2022)

deganawida said:


> There was a novel in the 90s.  I think it was by Chris Claremont (of X-Men fame) and Lucas (well, listed as coauthor).  I didn't read it.






Davies said:


> Yes, Claremont wrote a trilogy of fantasy novels that are a sequel to the film, _Chronicles of the Shadow War_. They were awful, and I really, _really_ hope this series doesn't reference them.



There was also a novelization of the film, with George Lucas and Bob Dolman listed as authors, and Wayland Drew as "Adapter", which I recall being pretty decent.


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## Imaculata (Jun 13, 2022)

I've always been intrigued by the setting of Willow. The movie always suggested there was a lot more lore than we ended up seeing. I hope the show explores this further.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 29, 2022)

Only a little over 24 hours until the best fantasy series of the year debuts!


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## Zardnaar (Nov 29, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Only a little over 24 hours until the best fantasy series of the year debuts!




 Gonna watch it. Prepared by rewatching the movie Sunday night. 

  Optimistic it's better than RoP/WoT not sure vs Shadow and Bone or HotD.

 Hadn't seen the movie in years.


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## MNblockhead (Nov 29, 2022)

I'm torn. Really excited about the series. Not excited about having to give money to Disney+


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## Zardnaar (Nov 29, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> I'm torn. Really excited about the series. Not excited about having to give money to Disney+




 Pay for a month or two, binge and cancel.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 29, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> I'm torn. Really excited about the series. Not excited about having to give money to Disney+




There is a lot of good stuff on there right now, or coming soon, that is not Star Wars or MCU, if you are avoiding it because of those. Willow debuts this week. the National Treasure series starts next month. The Santa Clauses series has been fun so far. And The Mysterious Benedict Society is in it's 2nd season and is quirky and fun.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 29, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> There is a lot of good stuff on there right now, or coming soon, that is not Star Wars or MCU, if you are avoiding it because of those. Willow debuts this week. the National Treasure series starts next month. The Santa Clauses series has been fun so far. And The Mysterious Benedict Society is in it's 2nd season and is quirky and fun.




 National Geographic had some random good stuff and here we get Star as well so there's a few shoes we've found. 

 Not s massive MCU fan some of the movies were alright gave up after the first 3 tv shows.


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## ART! (Nov 29, 2022)

I'm surprised by how excited I am for this. The movie is one of those things that's very silly but also very good. I'm reading Shadow Moon, the first sequel novel, and although I heard it was bad I'm enjoying it.


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## aco175 (Nov 30, 2022)

Comes out today.  I tend to wait and watch 3-4 episodes at once, but may watch this one.  Hope they are longer then the Star Wars shows that are only 30-40 minutes each.


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## Ryujin (Nov 30, 2022)

Watching the second episode now. Brings back so many memories.


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## ART! (Nov 30, 2022)

I don't know if this constitutes a spoiler, so  Val Kilmer isn't in this season, but might be in the next. He had (has?) throat cancer, but was totally up for some kind of cameo or whatever, but they were filming during COVID, so he had to bow out.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 30, 2022)

Both episodes were good and definitely still feels very D&D, just like the movie.


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## Davies (Nov 30, 2022)

I've lived long enough to see a sparring match where both combatants are wearing adequate facial protection. I am happy.

In other news -- interesting choice of name for the monstrous language.

At 37 minutes in: 



Spoiler



Dove is Elora, right?


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## Aeson (Nov 30, 2022)

Davies said:


> I've lived long enough to see a sparring match where both combatants are wearing adequate facial protection. I am happy.
> 
> In other news -- interesting choice of name for the monstrous language.
> 
> ...









Spoiler



And I did not see Kit kissing Jade coming. Nope, was totally blindsided. I am shocked. Shocked I say.


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## Ryujin (Nov 30, 2022)

Davies said:


> I've lived long enough to see a sparring match where both combatants are wearing adequate facial protection. I am happy.
> 
> In other news -- interesting choice of name for the monstrous language.
> 
> ...



Well, kind of protection. It's obviously more to hide the identities of the stunt people who are doing the fight scene. There's still no head and neck protection; just face.

Yes, but I wish they had drawn out identifying Elora longer. Given the red hair I was sure that it would be Jade.


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## Davies (Nov 30, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Well, kind of protection. It's obviously more to hide the identities of the stunt people who are doing the fight scene. There's still no head and neck protection; just face.



Existence is an imperfection.


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## Aeson (Nov 30, 2022)

I'm just glad Flash Thompson wasn't revealed to be Elora. I hope The Gales skewers him.


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## Davies (Nov 30, 2022)

Spoiler



"Do you commune with animals?"
"You commune with animals."
"No. Do you?"
"No. No, I ... am I going to have to do that?"
"Well, it might be useful."
"... um ... I was sort of hoping that Airk and I could --"
"Okay, before we go any further, perhaps I should explain that 'commune' means 'talk', not ... not what you're thinking."
"Ohhh. That's a relief. Is that something I thought I know that I should have forgotten?"
"... maybe we should stop the wagon after all."


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## Davies (Nov 30, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I'm just glad Flash Thompson wasn't revealed to be Elora. I hope The Gales skewers him.



Yes, the horrible person, who's done horrible things like ...

Um.

... what bad thing has he done, as this character, to deserve that again?


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## MarkB (Nov 30, 2022)

I thought the first episode was fantastic, the second one not quite so good. I liked Elora more before she knew she was Elora.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 1, 2022)

Did you all catch the call-out for Camryn Manheim in the scene in Willow's village when discussing which route to travel?


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## Zaukrie (Dec 1, 2022)

Pretty good. Not quite great, but enjoyable.


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## Aeson (Dec 1, 2022)

Davies said:


> Yes, the horrible person, who's done horrible things like ...
> 
> Um.
> 
> ... what bad thing has he done, as this character, to deserve that again?



Cuz clearly he's evil. He has evil facial hair. He understands an evil language,  and he's wearing my grandmother's drapes. He's either evil, or a bard, or an evil bard. All reasons to dead him. And he played Flash Thompson. I hated his version of Flash Thompson. This character is Flash Thompson in curtains.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 1, 2022)

He has a flute and knows Arcana. Definitely a bard. 

_Disney? WotC called. Apparently they want their D&D back._


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## Hussar (Dec 1, 2022)

I watched it, I enjoyed it, I'll probably keep watching.

I don't know how I managed to avoid it, but, I've only seen Willow once, like way, way back when and I remember nothing about it.  Watching this, all I could think was, "Wow, just how many fantasy cliches can they cram into one episode?"  Sure,  the cinematography is gorgeous and the acting is pretty good. but, wow, this is just hitting all the old standbys.  

And, one other thing that bugged me was half the show is so dark I can barely make out anything that's going on.  The whole fight in the fog thing was basically just colored smears on the screen.  Characters I don't know anything about, fighting monsters in the dark. Not exactly compelling to me.  

I'm normally a pretty big booster for shows like this, and, like I said, I enjoyed it enough that I'll probably watch it - but, it's a bit of a let down after Andor to be honest.  

Then again, I have to be fair.  The first couple of episodes of Andor didn't exactly wow me either, so, I'll keep an open mind.  Maybe watch the movie again and that might help.


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## MarkB (Dec 1, 2022)

Hussar said:


> I watched it, I enjoyed it, I'll probably keep watching.
> 
> I don't know how I managed to avoid it, but, I've only seen Willow once, like way, way back when and I remember nothing about it.



I rewatched it just prior to watching the series. Some parts don't stand up so well, including a lot of the performances, but a lot is still impressive - the way the brownies are integrated into scenes is very well done considering how old the movie is, and never really feels jarring, and the wall-crawling trolls still stand up very well and are suitably creepy.


Hussar said:


> Watching this, all I could think was, "Wow, just how many fantasy cliches can they cram into one episode?"  Sure,  the cinematography is gorgeous and the acting is pretty good. but, wow, this is just hitting all the old standbys.



Mostly that was positive for me, it felt like classic adventure stuff, with just enough subversions to keep it feeling modern.


Hussar said:


> And, one other thing that bugged me was half the show is so dark I can barely make out anything that's going on.  The whole fight in the fog thing was basically just colored smears on the screen.  Characters I don't know anything about, fighting monsters in the dark. Not exactly compelling to me.



That I definitely agree on - as the scene was playing out, my immediate thought was how terrible an idea it was to have introduced all these characters and then make it hard to follow who was doing what in the first major action set-piece.


----------



## John R Davis (Dec 1, 2022)

It was very DND.
Team Evil had some cool powers
Team Good nicely clichéd n squabbly.
Quite a few funny jokes too 

Very fun PG-12 entertainment


----------



## Aeson (Dec 2, 2022)

I just learned that the actress playing Willow's daughter is his real daughter, Annabelle. I hope we see more of her. I liked her.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 2, 2022)

Hussar said:


> And, one other thing that bugged me was half the show is so dark I can barely make out anything that's going on.



It was meant to be confusing. The characters involved did not know the target of the raid and did not at first know who had been taken. We only have Prince Bard's account of what happened, and he might be lying through his evil moustache*.


*Or it might be another fake-out.


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## Aeson (Dec 2, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It was meant to be confusing. The characters involved did not know the target of the raid and did not at first know who had been taken. We only have Prince Bard's account of what happened, and he might be lying through his evil moustache*.
> 
> 
> *Or it might be another fake-out.



I'm not alone in thinking he's an evil bard.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 2, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I'm not alone in thinking he's an evil bard.



Maybe, but after fake-elora in episode one, that might be what they want they want us to think.


----------



## Mallus (Dec 2, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Cuz clearly he's evil. He has evil facial hair. He understands an evil language,  and he's wearing my grandmother's drapes. He's either evil, or a bard, or an evil bard. All reasons to dead him. And he played Flash Thompson. I hated his version of Flash Thompson. This character is Flash Thompson in curtains.



Counterpoint: the actor also played Lobby Boy, therefore is good.


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## Aeson (Dec 2, 2022)

Mallus said:


> Counterpoint: the actor also played Lobby Boy, therefore is good.



I don't know what a lobby boy is. I assume it's nothing like a rent boy. Don't look that up if you don't know what it is.


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## Ryujin (Dec 2, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I don't know what a lobby boy is. I assume it's nothing like a rent boy. Don't look that up if you don't know what it is.



The correct term would have been "bellboy"


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 2, 2022)

I liked it rewatched the movie two nights before this. Better than RoP and WoT so far not as good as the other 3 shows.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 2, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> I liked it rewatched the movie two nights before this. Better than RoP and WoT so far not as good as the other 3 shows.



I can't agree with that last sentence......but I get not everyone agrees.


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 2, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I can't agree with that last sentence......but I get not everyone agrees.




 You liked it more than HotD, Witcher, Shadow and Bone?

 Tbf Witcher was a bit huh two episodes in.


----------



## Zaukrie (Dec 2, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> You liked it more than HotD, Witcher, Shadow and Bone?
> 
> Tbf Witcher was a bit huh two episodes in.



Good one. I liked RoP and WoT more.


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 2, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Good one. I liked RoP and WoT more.




 Well things like this are subjective.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 3, 2022)

Good, solid fantasy that I can watch with the kids and still enjoy myself. 

I didn't have an issue with the night fighting scene and following the action. Personally, I thought it was well done. I'm not watching it on a really high definition screen but I tend to watch most movies and series like this in the dark or near dark, which helps.


----------



## Dire Bare (Dec 3, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Also looks good for something no one asked for.



Why did someone need to "ask" for a Willow sequel for Lucasfilm to make one? Why do you assume no one DID ask for a sequel?

I've been waiting for this for decades, and I'm excited to see how the new story plays out.


----------



## Zaukrie (Dec 3, 2022)

I have a newer TV, and had no issue with the dark scenes.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 3, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I have a newer TV, and had no issue with the dark scenes.




 Older smart tv here no issues either. 

 Probably a combination of settings and lighting. We normally watch in the dark or light on in adjacent room.


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## Argyle King (Dec 3, 2022)

I watched the first episode today. I highly enjoyed it.

In one episode, I feel that I had more of an idea about who the new characters were (and why I should care about them) than what I got from an entire season of some other fantasy shows currently on.

I also feel that the show does a very good job of catching new (to Willow) watchers up to speed on what was covered by the movie (but without giving so much away that you wouldn't watch the old movie).

I'm only one episode in, but I'm hoping the show continues to be good. 

I have a few very minor gripes about some of the props being obviously plastic (or novelty lamps). But I can overlook that when the show is enjoyable.

I don't want to elaborate more because doing so would include spoilers.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 4, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Older smart tv here no issues either.
> 
> Probably a combination of settings and lighting. We normally watch in the dark or light on in adjacent room.



I didn't think the dark foggy scenes were excessively dark and foggy either. And you are right about settings. Switching between "TV" and "movie" mode on many flatscreen TVs makes huge changes to brightness and contrast levels.


----------



## Hussar (Dec 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I didn't think the dark foggy scenes were excessively dark and foggy either. And you are right about settings. Switching between "TV" and "movie" mode on many flatscreen TVs makes huge changes to brightness and contrast levels.



For me, it wasn't just the fight scene.  It was a lot of the indoor scenes were just really dark.  Willow's village, for example.  Look, I get they're underground, and you wouldn't want great big fluorescent lamps, fair enough.  But, a teeny bit brighter so I can tell one character dressed in drab brown clothes from another character dressed in drab, brown clothes would be nice.  

Does no one ever actually look at art from the middle ages?  People did not always dress is bloody brown.


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## Ryujin (Dec 5, 2022)

Hussar said:


> For me, it wasn't just the fight scene.  It was a lot of the indoor scenes were just really dark.  Willow's village, for example.  Look, I get they're underground, and you wouldn't want great big fluorescent lamps, fair enough.  But, a teeny bit brighter so I can tell one character dressed in drab brown clothes from another character dressed in drab, brown clothes would be nice.
> 
> Does no one ever actually look at art from the middle ages?  People did not always dress is bloody brown.



Having people always walk around in either mud brown or biker gear is one of my pet peeves with many shows. Seeing a LARPing leather vest that's identical to one in my closet, in a TV show with a pretty large budget, really put me off it.


----------



## Zaukrie (Dec 5, 2022)

Hussar said:


> For me, it wasn't just the fight scene.  It was a lot of the indoor scenes were just really dark.  Willow's village, for example.  Look, I get they're underground, and you wouldn't want great big fluorescent lamps, fair enough.  But, a teeny bit brighter so I can tell one character dressed in drab brown clothes from another character dressed in drab, brown clothes would be nice.
> 
> Does no one ever actually look at art from the middle ages?  People did not always dress is bloody brown.



When people in WoT dressed in other colors and designs, the internet complained it didn't look "old enough".....can't win.

but, I agree with you.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 6, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> When people in WoT dressed in other colors and designs, the internet complained it didn't look "old enough".....can't win.
> 
> but, I agree with you.



I think that complaint was a bit different and much like complaints about "The Shannara Chronicles." Perhaps it's not so much that the clothes didn't look "old enough" and more that they didn't look used. Many shows make the mistake of having clothing that looks like it was taken fresh off of the rack in Wardrobe, because in fact it was. If you look at some of the better BBC period shows, for example, you may notice that the clothing has been worn in much the way it would if it had been used for a protracted time.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 6, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I didn't think the dark foggy scenes were excessively dark and foggy either. And you are right about settings. Switching between "TV" and "movie" mode on many flatscreen TVs makes huge changes to brightness and contrast levels.



Yeah, but it is highly dependent on the individual. Age can play a role as just differences in eyesight.  My wife hates, hates, hates watching movies in a darkened room and that can really affects the quality of viewing dark scenes. Took a while to find a good lighting compromise.

For me, sound is always the biggest issue. I have trouble hearing dialog in many shows using the TV's speakers no matter what settings I select. Not that it is a cheap TV, I think it is just my age. I could probably invest in a good sound system, but for shows I am really into I use a good set of over-the-ear head phones. Provides the best experience for a lot less money that an expensive sound system.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 6, 2022)

Hussar said:


> For me, it wasn't just the fight scene.  It was a lot of the indoor scenes were just really dark.  Willow's village, for example.



Then I think you need to check your TV settings, because I didn't find those scenes at all dark.


Hussar said:


> Look, I get they're underground, and you wouldn't want great big fluorescent lamps, fair enough.  But, a teeny bit brighter so I can tell one character dressed in drab brown clothes from another character dressed in drab, brown clothes would be nice.
> 
> Does no one ever actually look at art from the middle ages?  People did not always dress is bloody brown.



Willow is not set in the middle ages.

If you don't want to draw attention to yourself, you don't want to be wearing bright colours.


----------



## Benjamin Olson (Dec 6, 2022)

Hussar said:


> Watching this, all I could think was, "Wow, just how many fantasy cliches can they cram into one episode?" Sure, the cinematography is gorgeous and the acting is pretty good. but, wow, this is just hitting all the old standbys.



See personally I grew up with the movie in my regular viewing rotation and so it was where I met most of those cliche's for the first time (or at least the first time played earnestly). I think in general the movie is pretty good (certainly better than it's contemporary reputation), but amazing if you encounter it when you're between ages 7-12 or so and don't fully realize that it is just the most standard fantasy everything (with a double helping of Lord of the Rings) made very kid friendly and shot particularly well with very high production values. So far the series seems like mostly the same formula.



Dire Bare said:


> Why did someone need to "ask" for a Willow sequel for Lucasfilm to make one? Why do you assume no one DID ask for a sequel?
> 
> I've been waiting for this for decades, and I'm excited to see how the new story plays out.



I'd argue that there are few franchises that more needed a long belated sequel. The whole plot of the original was that Elora Danan was some sort of chosen one who had to be kept safe, but the exact nature of her significance was pretty vague, and obviously she wasn't going to do anything chosen-oney while she was a baby. Lots of movies set up sequels, but very few set up 15-30 year later sequels.


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## Hussar (Dec 6, 2022)

Benjamin Olson said:


> See personally I grew up with the movie in my regular viewing rotation and so it was where I met most of those cliche's for the first time (or at least the first time played earnestly). I think in general the movie is pretty good (certainly better than it's contemporary reputation), but amazing if you encounter it when you're between ages 7-12 or so and don't fully realize that it is just the most standard fantasy everything (with a double helping of Lord of the Rings) made very kid friendly and shot particularly well with very high production values. So far the series seems like mostly the same formula.
> 
> 
> I'd argue that there are few franchises that more needed a long belated sequel. The whole plot of the original was that Elora Danan was some sort of chosen one who had to be kept safe, but the exact nature of her significance was pretty vague, and obviously she wasn't going to do anything chosen-oney while she was a baby. Lots of movies set up sequels, but very few set up 15-30 year later sequels.




The movie gets a bye because well a lot of those things weren’t cliche then. Now? Yeah I’ve seen this plot a thousand times already.


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## MarkB (Dec 7, 2022)

Episode 3, and this is officially the most D&D show that ever D&D'd. The characters, the situations, the conversation, even the combat feels turn-based. Oh, and this episode doubles down on pitch-dark combat scenes by adding (literally) washed-out colours.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 7, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Episode 3, and this is officially the most D&D show that ever D&D'd. The characters, the situations, the conversation, even the combat feels turn-based. Oh, and this episode doubles down on pitch-dark combat scenes by adding (literally) washed-out colours.



Somehow I forgot it was on today! thanks,


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## Ryujin (Dec 7, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Episode 3, and this is officially the most D&D show that ever D&D'd. The characters, the situations, the conversation, even the combat feels turn-based. Oh, and this episode doubles down on pitch-dark combat scenes by adding (literally) washed-out colours.



I think that there's an argument that the most D&D that ever D&Ded is the "Mythica" movies series, that literally has the party forming in a tavern, but you're not wrong.


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## Henadic Theologian (Dec 8, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I think that there's an argument that the most D&D that ever D&Ded is the "Mythica" movies series, that literally has the party forming in a tavern, but you're not wrong.




 I think the reference is to by live action Hollywood, not like independant creators. 

 The most D&D show period would be Vex Machina, because it IS a D&D show.

 Honorable mentions go to Dragon Prince, Dragon Knight, Arcane, and Blood of Zeus and Guardians of the Galaxy.


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## Aeson (Dec 8, 2022)

I haven't finished episode 3 yet. I cannot expres in words how much I love this series. It's what I've been looking for in a D&D like show. I really hope I don't come to eat these words by the end.


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## Mallus (Dec 8, 2022)

I didn’t expect the Willow series to be The Wrath of Khan of Willow movies, which consists solely of Willow.

ie, it’s about mortality, and unfortunate parental relations.

That 3rd episode was very satisfying.


----------



## Davies (Dec 8, 2022)

Boorman is a bit too blatantly "inspired" by Jack Sparrow for my liking. The series is okay if a little disjointed at times.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 8, 2022)

Davies said:


> Boorman is a bit too blatantly "inspired" by Jack Sparrow for my liking. The series is okay if a little disjointed at times.



I would have said he was inspired by Madmartigan, in the absence of Val Kilmer. Which is justified, since he was his squire. Jack Sparrow is a similar character, but Madmartigan did it earlier.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 8, 2022)

Oh yeah. In this episode bard casts Vicious Mockery. Fails.


----------



## Benjamin Olson (Dec 8, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I would have said he was inspired by Madmartigan, in the absence of Val Kilmer. Which is justified, since he was his squire. Jack Sparrow is a similar character, but Madmartigan did it earlier.



Indeed, and whether or not one particularly desires such a character in one's fantasy epics on a general level, a _Willow_ sequel without some sort of Madmartigan-esque character is not really a _Willow_ sequel.


----------



## Aeson (Dec 8, 2022)

Something tells me I'm probably not her type, but Hubert stole my heart. We're close in age. She has the advantage there. We're close in height. I have the advantage. Not even close in vocabulary. She definitely has the advantage. I wanted to see her and Boorman go at it. The verbal and physical sparing would have been a sight.


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## Ryujin (Dec 8, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Something tells me I'm probably not her type, but Hubert stole my heart. We're close in age. She has the advantage there. We're close in height. I have the advantage. Not even close in vocabulary. She definitely has the advantage. I wanted to see her and Boorman go at it. The verbal and physical sparing would have been a sight.



T'was a pity.


----------



## Davies (Dec 8, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I would have said he was inspired by Madmartigan



He's more of an opportunist and rogue than Madmartigan was.


----------



## Zaukrie (Dec 8, 2022)

Disney didn't want me to watch this last night....so I watched Troll. Don't watch Troll. Watch troll hunter. Trust me.


----------



## Dire Bare (Dec 9, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Something tells me I'm probably not her type, but Hubert stole my heart. We're close in age. She has the advantage there. We're close in height. I have the advantage. Not even close in vocabulary. She definitely has the advantage. I wanted to see her and Boorman go at it. The verbal and physical sparing would have been a sight.



When Ellora met Hubert and . . . her partner (can't remember the name), my first thought was, "Don't introduce these characters and then kill them off right away . . . ." Sigh.


----------



## Dire Bare (Dec 9, 2022)

I'm enjoying the series so far, but it has been very uneven. Wooden acting, from actors I've seen do amazing work in other shows. Terrible, terrible fight scenes. Stilted dialogue. But also lots of fun moments and hilarious one-liners sprinkled throughout.

I'm really enjoying Boorman, despite him being over-the-top and that giant cleaver thing. I'm even enjoying the understated Graydon.

In the episode 3 fight scene . . . did they have regular swords with removable hilt extenders? I swear both Jade and Kit were using them . . .


----------



## Davies (Dec 9, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> When Ellora met Hubert and . . . her partner



Anne.


----------



## Zaukrie (Dec 9, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> I'm enjoying the series so far, but it has been very uneven. Wooden acting, from actors I've seen do amazing work in other shows. Terrible, terrible fight scenes. Stilted dialogue. But also lots of fun moments and hilarious one-liners sprinkled throughout.
> 
> I'm really enjoying Boorman, despite him being over-the-top and that giant cleaver thing. I'm even enjoying the understanded Graydon.
> 
> In the episode 3 fight scene . . . did they have regular swords with removable hilt extenders? I swear both Jade and Kit were using them . . .



That's how I feel. Also, where are the wererats? Terrible name for this things.. .

It's fun, it's decent fantasy. But the acting is mediocre. And I don't get the fight scenes at all. The good guys just can't fight well enough. 
Whilei cold see everything fine, maybe but every fight but one is in the dark?
Also, why are guys guys always stupid and don't finish killing things? I would have enjoyed a big, strong, fighting woman.


----------



## Aexalon (Dec 9, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> That's how I feel. Also, where are the wererats? Terrible name for this things.. .



R.O.U.S. was no longer available.


----------



## Zaukrie (Dec 9, 2022)

Maybe I should have read that post before hitting post reply...


----------



## Davies (Dec 15, 2022)

... Grayonce?


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 15, 2022)

Don't. Split. The party.


----------



## MarkB (Dec 15, 2022)

"This evil fortress is the only shelter for leagues."

"What about that nice woodcutters' cabin? We know they're not going to use it."


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 15, 2022)

MarkB said:


> "This evil fortress is the only shelter for leagues."
> 
> "What about that nice woodcutters' cabin? We know they're not going to use it."



The evil fortress full of XP and fat loot?


----------



## Benjamin Olson (Dec 15, 2022)

The weakest part of the show is the dialogue, which is often tonally inconsistant not only with the movie it is based on, and but even with itself. Even some of the more clever lines are tonally inconsistent and pull me out of my fantasy epic. This was at its worst in the first episode which focused so much on the several youths talking the way Hollywood writers would write modern day teenagers (I say "youths" because by the timeline aren't they supposed to be in their mid-to-late 20s?). It hasn't been as bad by comparison in subsequent episodes because the mix of characters got less pseudo-teen-centric once the quest began, but this most recent episode (four) was a bit more characters-sharing-conversations-heavy, and it was a step down from episodes 2 and 3 which basically just worked for me, with minor quibbles.

I don't think the writing on the whole is bad, because there is more to writing than just dialogue. The story and character beats are mostly pretty good, and I at least kind of like the characters. The episodes have all ended making me want to watch another episode. And, once again, I think some of the lines that bother me are actually funny, or cleverly written, or whatever; they just don't strike a consistent tone for the series, and pull me out of it. And other than one woodswoman not having any combat sense, and a bit too much retreading of tired teen-angst tropes that I just never really enjoy, everything that has bothered me in this series has ultimately boiled down to awkward dialogue.


----------



## MarkB (Dec 15, 2022)

Benjamin Olson said:


> The weakest part of the show is the dialogue, which is often tonally inconsistant not only with the movie it is based on, and but even with itself. Even some of the more clever lines are tonally inconsistent and pull me out of my fantasy epic. This was at its worst in the first episode which focused so much on the several youths talking the way Hollywood writers would write modern day teenagers (I say "youths" because by the timeline aren't they supposed to be in their mid-to-late 20s?). It hasn't been as bad by comparison in subsequent episodes because the mix of characters got less pseudo-teen-centric once the quest began, but this most recent episode (four) was a bit more characters-sharing-conversations-heavy, and it was a step down from episodes 2 and 3 which basically just worked for me, with minor quibbles.
> 
> I don't think the writing on the whole is bad, because there is more to writing than just dialogue. The story and character beats are mostly pretty good, and I at least kind of like the characters. The episodes have all ended making me want to watch another episode. And, once again, I think some of the lines that bother me are actually funny, or cleverly written, or whatever; they just don't strike a consistent tone for the series, and pull me out of it. And other than one woodswoman not having any combat sense, and a bit too much retreading of tired teen-angst tropes that I just never really enjoy, everything that has bothered me in this series has ultimately boiled down to awkward dialogue.



This is one of the things that makes it feel so D&D to me. The dialogue sounds like a bunch of players talking in-character, with all the odd mix of modernisms and traditional fantasy-world dialogue that entails.


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## Aeson (Dec 15, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Don't. Split. The party.



Too late. 

And they did not fail in giving evidence to why this is such good advice. Also, they need a cleric.


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## Aeson (Dec 15, 2022)

MarkB said:


> This is one of the things that makes it feel so D&D to me. The dialogue sounds like a bunch of players talking in-character, with all the odd mix of modernisms and traditional fantasy-world dialogue that entails.



I agree. They tried too hard with The Rings of Power. I think this makes it easier for a younger audience to get into. 

No one has complained that Princess Kit and Prince Evil don't have English accents like everyone else? I find that a little shocking. It's such a minor nit to pick but I thought someone would have been picking at it by now.


----------



## Aeson (Dec 15, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The evil fortress full of XP and fat loot?



We goes in. We killz em all. We lootz da place. And we leggz it.


----------



## Dire Bare (Dec 15, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I agree. They tried too hard with The Rings of Power. I think this makes it easier for a younger audience to get into.
> 
> No one has complained that Princess Kit and Prince Evil don't have English accents like everyone else? I find that a little shocking. It's such a minor nit to pick but I thought someone would have been picking at it by now.



And the "English" accents we do get are from all over the UK . . . .

I noticed the inconsistency, but it doesn't bother me. It's light-hearted fantasy fare, and the anachronistic dialogue is part of the charm for me.


----------



## Zaukrie (Dec 15, 2022)

They have to be the dumbest characters ever. It's getting tedious for me. I like the show, but I feel I could love it with better writing.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 15, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I agree. They tried too hard with The Rings of Power. I think this makes it easier for a younger audience to get into.
> 
> No one has complained that Princess Kit and Prince Evil don't have English accents like everyone else? I find that a little shocking. It's such a minor nit to pick but I thought someone would have been picking at it by now.


----------



## MarkB (Dec 15, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> They have to be the dumbest characters ever. It's getting tedious for me. I like the show, but I feel I could love it with better writing.



It has moments I really like - subversions of expectations, strong character beats, excellent humour - but those are getting sparser and sparser as the episodes go on.


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## beta-ray (Dec 15, 2022)

I'm still having fun with it. Though there are epic elements to it, I don't really see it as an epic. Good fun though.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 16, 2022)

MarkB said:


> This is one of the things that makes it feel so D&D to me. The dialogue sounds like a bunch of players talking in-character, with all the odd mix of modernisms and traditional fantasy-world dialogue that entails.



And I love that, in the right fantasy property. No complaints from me about the _Legend of Vox Machina,_ and I'll probably be fine with the upcoming D&D movie if it has a comparable tonal vibe because, as you say it feels very much like what a D&D table sounds like. 

The trouble is that this is a sequel and revival to a movie that was basically a lighter, kid-friendlier remix of Lord of the Rings, and inherited from that both a veneer of silted, "ye olde grand fantasy epic" tone and a world that lacked the population size and cosmopolitan elements which might make different characters having wildly different speech patterns, some more modern than others, make sense.

At the end of the day my issue with the dialogue is not it being intrinsically bad, but rather that it often lands awkwardly in ways that pull me out of enjoying the show and shift me over to critiquing the show. A show that, on the basis of high nostalgia, high production values, a serviceable story, a likeable enough cast, and a lead reprising his iconic role, would otherwise keep me in constant enjoyment mode.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 16, 2022)

Benjamin Olson said:


> The trouble is that this is a sequel and revival to a movie that was basically a lighter, kid-friendlier remix of Lord of the Rings



Given that Willow opens with a massacre of babies, and LotR opens with a birthday party, I'm not sure that is a strictly accurate appraisal.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 16, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Given that Willow opens with a massacre of babies, and LotR opens with a birthday party, I'm not sure that is a strictly accurate appraisal.



I disagree, because viewing the works holistically rather than focusing on the opening I think it's clear which one was going out of its way to try to be appealing to eleven year olds. But I'm not going to debate the point, because it isn't really the point I was making, which is simply that the one work borrowed heavily from the other, in the process inheriting much of its general tonal vibe and setting feel, and that just as having characters who sound like 21st century Southern California teens show up in a piece of Tolkien media would be a bit disconcerting, so to it is (albeit to a lesser degree) with its spiritual cousin _Willow_.


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## John R Davis (Dec 18, 2022)

Well after  4 episodes it is good, could even become great.
Castle Nockmar was a brilliant dungeon.
The humour/ joke level is spot on
Constant PC bickering but we will save each other is very D&D.

The first fight scene against the liches was very weak ( 2nd was better).
Was convinced Hubert/Anne were the brownies in disguise!
Warwick's acting is all over the place, some very good, some very poor.

Thumbs up from me.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 18, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> Well after  4 episodes it is good, could even become great.
> Castle Nockmar was a brilliant dungeon.
> The humour/ joke level is spot on
> Constant PC bickering but we will save each other is very D&D.
> ...



Ya. I've played over forty years. I've never seen that level of bickering.


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## Ryujin (Dec 18, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Ya. I've played over forty years. I've never seen that level of bickering.



I've GMed a couple of parties that bickered so much, during play, that I just had things start to move along without them and waited for them to notice.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 18, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I've GMed a couple of parties that bickered so much, during play, that I just had things start to move along without them and waited for them to notice.



My point is, not all groups are that way......


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## Ryujin (Dec 18, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> My point is, not all groups are that way......



Sorry, your post seemed to be implying that no party is that way, by anecdotal evidence.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 19, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> My point is, not all groups are that way......



I'm sure that somewhere there is an adventuring party that works like a well oiled machine, but bumbling incompetence is more the norm in my experience.


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## John R Davis (Dec 19, 2022)

Heh 
You bickering just to prove my point!!!!!


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## MarkB (Dec 21, 2022)

This week's episode had an absolutely dreadful start. Just terrible. _In media res_ is fine in principle, but when that media is Scooby Doo, you've taken a wrong turn somewhere.

Aside from that, though, I rather enjoyed it.


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## Rabulias (Dec 21, 2022)

I dunno. This episode was kinda bad to me. From the (IMO) inappropriate use of modern songs, the plot-convenience cameo of Rool, Willow and Graydon escaping in some unseen manner (really, did I miss something?), the Bone Reavers' dizzying turn to be a bunch of chaotic good freedom fighters (neglecting that they straight-up murdered the elder guardsman escorting the quest in episode 2), and just general time wasting in this episode.

Is this season going to end on a cliffhanger? I don't see how they can (satisfyingly) wrap up the quest and all dangling plot threads in just three episodes. I mean everyone reacts to the idea of crossing the Shattered Sea like it is an impossible task.



Spoiler: Speculation



They keep playing Sorsha's line about Bavmorda's spirit living on, and some scenes last episode hint at Kit falling to the dark side, but I wonder if Sorsha is bad? Some stuff this episode hints she has made some less than nice decisions. Or maybe Airk will be Bavmorda reborn? It might explain why he was captured.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 22, 2022)

Well truth plums are going to be making their way into my D&D games shortly.

In terms of characters I think this was my favorite episode so far. In terms of everything else there were definitely some questionable decisions.

An _in media res_ start in the middle of a fight would be great if this was a fight with some random mooks or something where the beginning is predictable, perfunctory, and doesn't do any important character building. But since it involves villains who are being established and built up as major antagonists it seems like the start of the fight is something we should see, especially since the prior episode left us on a cliffhanger of them finding the party. It feels more like we just skipped 3 or 4 scenes. Maybe the scenes were planned and didn't quite work. Maybe they were too expensive.

Willow has a flamethrower? I'm probably fine with that, but it feels like something you need to explain relatively quickly after throwing it out there. Especially since he also possesses a magic wand which is what I assumed he was using, until a later shot where he clearly is holding a very different object.

The brownie cameo made little sense, but it satisfied one of the obligations of a _Willow_ revival in a way that was fun, didn't overstay its welcome, and didn't derail the plot, so I'll give it a pass.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 22, 2022)

_"Face it Willow, you were never much of a sorcerer." _

Multiclass: Artificer


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## Zaukrie (Dec 22, 2022)

We thought that might have been the best episode so far. I guess since she never uses the bow, she may as well drop it and leave it. Stupidest characters ever


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## MarkB (Dec 22, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> We thought that might have been the best episode so far. I guess since she never uses the bow, she may as well drop it and leave it. Stupidest characters ever



Nobody likes having to track ammunition.


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## Ryujin (Dec 22, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> We thought that might have been the best episode so far. I guess since she never uses the bow, she may as well drop it and leave it. Stupidest characters ever



Unfortunately, people in fantasy drop weapons in the same sort of way that they cut rope.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 22, 2022)

That was more of a comment on how she never actually used her bow. But, wow, their tactics are awful also. And, in a rare moment of me pointing out good continuity, it appeared she was not carrying her bow later in the show.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 22, 2022)

MarkB said:


> This week's episode had an absolutely dreadful start. Just terrible. _In media res_ is fine in principle, but when that media is Scooby Doo, you've taken a wrong turn somewhere.



The episode starting in the middle of the action worked for me. Scooby Doo?


Rabulias said:


> I dunno. This episode was kinda bad to me. From the (IMO) inappropriate use of modern songs, the plot-convenience cameo of Rool, Willow and Graydon escaping in some unseen manner (really, did I miss something?), the Bone Reavers' dizzying turn to be a bunch of chaotic good freedom fighters (neglecting that they straight-up murdered the elder guardsman escorting the quest in episode 2), and just general time wasting in this episode.



They've used covers of modern songs in every episode! You just noticed? For me, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

I enjoyed this episode quite a bit, but yeah, the various escapes and recaptures, then the switch to the "welcome home" party, left some gaps in the narrative. The idea that the bone reavers aren't insane, crazy servants of evil, but instead cultivate that image in their struggle against the "good" kingdom . . . it's a fine idea, but doesn't work that well in the context of the show, as the "good" kingdom isn't portrayed with a lot of nuance, and yes the bone reavers switch from being portrayed as scary reavers to happy forest folk too quickly, and again without nuance.

The show is light-hearted fantasy fare, and I'm willing to forgive these plot issues, but there they are. I'm glade Jade (Erin Kellyman) got in a decent fight this episode! And, the snappy one-liners are still killing me!


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## MarkB (Dec 22, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> The episode starting in the middle of the action worked for me. Scooby Doo?



Lots of comedy running around, being chased by tough-looking villains who never actually catch up, hiding in plain sight to have a conversation while the enemies inexplicably lose them for a couple of minutes. It didn't quite have them running in and out of a bunch of different doors down a corridor, but the sentiment was there.


Dire Bare said:


> They've used covers of modern songs in every episode! You just noticed? For me, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.



They've mostly used them as an outro over the end credits, which is fine. This one was used over the action, and poorly - somehow both the in-world sounds and the music managed to drown each other out in equal measure.


Dire Bare said:


> I enjoyed this episode quite a bit, but yeah, the various escapes and recaptures, then the switch to the "welcome home" party, left some gaps in the narrative. The idea that the bone reavers aren't insane, crazy servants of evil, but instead cultivate that image in their struggle against the "good" kingdom . . . it's a fine idea, but doesn't work that well in the context of the show, as the "good" kingdom isn't portrayed with a lot of nuance, and yes the bone reavers switch from being portrayed as scary reavers to happy forest folk too quickly, and again without nuance.



And they still have that extensive skull collection, which I'm guessing they didn't acquire through trade or scavenging.


Dire Bare said:


> The show is light-hearted fantasy fare, and I'm willing to forgive these plot issues, but there they are. I'm glade Jade (Erin Kellyman) got in a decent fight this episode! And, the snappy one-liners are still killing me!



Yeah, those are most of what's sustaining the show for me at this point. I do like the characters, I just wish I could also respect them.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 22, 2022)

We didn't mind the modern music at all. I don't get the issue. This is super light-hearted fare, not LotR or Shadow and Bone.

I like the idea they are freedom fighters, don't love the execution. But that's the whole show for me so far, great ideas, ok execution.


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## MarkB (Dec 22, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> We didn't mind the modern music at all. I don't get the issue. This is super light-hearted fare, not LotR or Shadow and Bone.



I've no objection to the use of modern music, I just thought it was poorly executed. Compare this scene to a similar tune in Shrek (action starts at 1:30):

The action is edited around the soundtrack, the audio balance lets you hear the music clearly without obscuring the in-world sounds, and it wraps up neatly on the end of a verse instead of just fading out. Admittedly all easier in animation, but could still have been done a lot more competently here.


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## Ryujin (Dec 22, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I've no objection to the use of modern music, I just thought it was poorly executed. Compare this scene to a similar tune in Shrek (action starts at 1:30):
> 
> The action is edited around the soundtrack, the audio balance lets you hear the music clearly without obscuring the in-world sounds, and it wraps up neatly on the end of a verse instead of just fading out. Admittedly all easier in animation, but could still have been done a lot more competently here.



I would tend to agree on the use of modern music in Willow. It's like someone took the "A Knight's Tale" masterclass, but failed. Still, I'm enjoying the show overall.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 22, 2022)

This is a very meta show. Aside from the mention of "sidequest" - associated with a companion character, Bioware style, we also had a would-be knight the secret offspring of a character notorious for being a rip-off of Darth Vader.


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## MarkB (Dec 22, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I would tend to agree on the use of modern music in Willow. It's like someone took the "A Knight's Tale" masterclass, but failed. Still, I'm enjoying the show overall.



Yeah, that's a great example of a movie doing the modern-soundtrack-insert right.


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## Mad_Jack (Dec 23, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> From the (IMO) inappropriate use of modern songs,




 It's damned hard to match up good modern music to a scene when doing a period/genre piece, particularly an action scene - and, of course, most of the songs that work best for that kind of thing have already been done before. I think I've only seen it done really well a handful of times...


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 23, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I would tend to agree on the use of modern music in Willow. It's like someone took the "A Knight's Tale" masterclass, but failed. Still, I'm enjoying the show overall.




I don't like A Knight's Tale specifically because the modern music did not fit and ruined it. Willow has been better about using it.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 23, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I don't like A Knight's Tale specifically because the modern music did not fit and ruined it. Willow has been better about using it.



Same. Showing how much entertainment is personal.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 23, 2022)

My main take away: one you know kissing is on the table, stop talking, and start kissing.


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## Argyle King (Dec 23, 2022)

I'm still enjoying the show, but I'm a little confused about what show I'm watching. 

The show started out with what seemed like maybe it would be a fantasy adventure with touches of darker fantasy and fairie tales.

Now, it seems more in the ballpark of some of the whacky Hercules/Xena episodes from the 90s mixed with a bunch of different things (depending on the episode).

The most recent episode left me with a lot of questions about the surrounding world that Willow takes place in. I had always thought it was fantasy, but it now seems like maybe it's a post-apocalyptic setting.

I like a lot of things about the individual episodes. I'm just not quite sure how any of it connects together. 

The flame thrower was cool, but seemed out of place.

For some reason the bone reaver dance party gave me Fraggle Rock vibes.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 23, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> The most recent episode left me with a lot of questions about the surrounding world that Willow takes place in. I had always thought it was fantasy, but it now seems like maybe it's a post-apocalyptic setting.




Huh? How so?


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## Argyle King (Dec 23, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> Huh? How so?





A big part of the show revolves around the prince being taken to a fallen city (which is implied to have been something fantastic at some point in the past). Presumably, something happened there to cause the city's current state of disarray.

Various things (including Willow's flamethrower, and the armor pieces described by Boorman) indicate varying levels of technology being available. Disparate scraps of tech gives the impression that different areas of the world may have access to relics from a more-advanced past.

I'm not sure if the "Shattered Sea" actually means water. At first I thought that was the case, but some of how things have been described could be understood to mean some sort of wasteland (possibly radiated or ruined in some way).

As more details emerge about Elora Danan and what exactly Bavmorda was trying to do -notably banishing her soul- the more it vaguely resembles the background fluff for Warhammer's God-Emperor and how evil forces were trying to purge his soul.

Overall, it comes across as starting to feel more like there are touches of sci-fi or a post-apocalyptic setting. Though, in terms of being post-apocalyptic, the world isn't ruined. Enough time has passed that there is still a functioning world and society, but things from a previous age linger on. 

The denim and graphic-print band tees also stand out as not quite fitting into fantasy.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 23, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> The most recent episode left me with a lot of questions about the surrounding world that Willow takes place in. I had always thought it was fantasy, but it now seems like maybe it's a post-apocalyptic setting.



Most fantasy _is_ post-apocalyptic in the sense that it typically involves a background of older, greater, more advanced societies that have collapsed. This has to do both with making magical macguffins rare and irreplaceable and a transposition of tropes related to medieval European views of the fall of the Roman Empire as well as more general myths and legends in premodern societies of lost golden ages. Scattered, post-collapse societies are also cheaper to film, can have simpler worldbuilding, and lend themselves to being populatated by a limited, manageable cast of characters. In a sense, there is nothing in this show radically more post-apocolyptic than the movie's visit to a ruined, troll-infested Tir Asleen. Obviously if we take this view to the extreme almost everything becomes "post-apocalyptic" and the term becomes useless, but I do think it is worth keeping in mind that fantasy typically has _elements_ of a post-apocalyptic setting and ideas of collapsed, greater past societies are pretty thoroughly baked into the genre such that authors will incorporate them without necessarily always giving the matter much thought.

That said the show does seem to be introducing an element of lost advanced high tech or magitech to the setting with both the flamethrower and the way it portrayed the cuirass powerpack Boorman recovered being used in flashback, which certainly feels like a new element in the setting and a genre shift more towards the sci-fi. Perhaps their fantasy planet will turn out to be in the Star Wars galaxy for some sort of grand Lucas conjunction.


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## Argyle King (Dec 23, 2022)

Benjamin Olson said:


> Most fantasy _is_ post-apocalyptic in the sense that it typically involves a background of older, greater, more advanced societies that have collapsed. This has to do both with making magical macguffins rare and irreplaceable and a transposition of tropes related to medieval European views of the fall of the Roman Empire as well as more general myths and legends in premodern societies of lost golden ages. Scattered, post-collapse societies are also cheaper to film, can have simpler worldbuilding, and lend themselves to being populatated by a limited, manageable cast of characters. In a sense, there is nothing in this show radically more post-apocolyptic than the movie's visit to a ruined, troll-infested Tir Asleen. Obviously if we take this view to the extreme almost everything becomes "post-apocalyptic" and the term becomes useless, but I do think it is worth keeping in mind that fantasy typically has _elements_ of a post-apocalyptic setting and ideas of collapsed, greater past societies are pretty thoroughly baked into the genre such that authors will incorporate them without necessarily always giving the matter much thought.
> 
> That said the show does seem to be introducing an element of lost advanced high tech or magitech to the setting with both the flamethrower and the way it portrayed the cuirass powerpack Boorman recovered being used in flashback, which certainly feels like a new element in the setting and a genre shift more towards the sci-fi. Perhaps their fantasy planet will turn out to be in the Star Wars galaxy for some sort of grand Lucas conjunction.





I agree with the first part. A big part of Conan lore, dungeon delving, and etc involved Finding old forgotten treasures.

But your second paragraph is more of what I meant. My perception is that the Willow show is going in a very different direction than what's usually fantasy, the older Willow movie, and even different from a lot of what was in the first two episodes of the show. 

I'm not saying that's good or bad. It's just very different than I expected, and I'm not entirely sure that I know what type of show I am now watching.


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## Aeson (Dec 23, 2022)

I couldn't make it out. Was that a Scorpions tshirt? I could tell she was wearing one of those animal onesies "the kids these days" wear. 
I liked the sidequest comment. He wasn't wrong. 
It was a character development episode and I'm ok with that. I'm not sure of the about face with the bone-reavers. I did find them amusing after though.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 23, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I don't like A Knight's Tale specifically because the modern music did not fit and ruined it.



You are kind of missing the point of the movie - professional sport is professional sport, regardless of the year. Nothing really changes.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 23, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I'm not sure of the about face with the bone-reavers.



Was anyone actually surprised? It was hinted at as early as episode 2.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 23, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> You are kind of missing the point of the movie - professional sport is professional sport, regardless of the year. Nothing really changes.




The dance scene with modern music was especially stupid.


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## Tonguez (Dec 23, 2022)

I’m behind (just reached Nockmaar) but a question - were Hubert and Anne suppose to be brownies? What was with Huberts weird speech patterns? Dumb they got killed off.
Is the show bringing back the brownies?


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## MarkB (Dec 23, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I’m behind (just reached Nockmaar) but a question - were Hubert and Anne suppose to be brownies? What was with Huberts weird speech patterns? Dumb they got killed off.



They felt like the typical colourful cameo NPC, personality quirks dialled up to 11 so the DM can have some fun while surprising and entertaining the players. I swear Hubert did a knowing wink to camera at one point.

No, they're not brownies.


Tonguez said:


> Is the show bringing back the brownies?



Yes.


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## Tonguez (Dec 24, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> A big part of the show revolves around the prince being taken to a fallen city (which is implied to have been something fantastic at some point in the past). Presumably, something happened there to cause the city's current state of disarray.
> 
> Various things (including Willow's flamethrower, and the armor pieces described by Boorman) indicate varying levels of technology being available. Disparate scraps of tech gives the impression that different areas of the world may have access to relics from a more-advanced past.
> 
> ...




Willow made a cameo in a star wars spin off game and there were once rumors that Willow occured in another galaxy in the Star Wars universe - so theres some rationale for the creeping sci-fi elements

non-canon rumours like those linking Star Wars, ET and Indiana Jones


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## Rabulias (Dec 24, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> non-canon rumours like those linking Star Wars, ET and Indiana Jones



Star Wars and ET _are _linked by canon. From _The Phantom Menace_:


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## MNblockhead (Dec 24, 2022)

I'm sure many fans would hate it, but the idea of Willow being a post-apocalyptic setting with some sci-fi fantasy elements would be quite interesting if done well.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 24, 2022)

Maybe they'll just abruptly start having flashbacks to Willow's adventures on Tatooine:


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 24, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The dance scene with modern music was especially stupid.



People in the 14th century would have danced to familiar, popular music. But 14th century music would not be familiar and popular to a modern audience. So, in order to reproduce an authentic 14th-century emotional response in the audience, the music had to be modern. It's no different to having them speak modern English because the language spoken in the 14th century would be unintelligible.



> Whilom, as olde stories tellen us,
> Ther was a duc that highte Theseus;
> Of Atthenes he was lord and governour,
> And in his tyme swich a conquerour
> That gretter was ther noon under the sonne.



And it's a lot easier to read that it would be to hear spoken!


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 24, 2022)

On the subject of _A Knight's Tale_, I actually finally got around to watching it a couple months back. I had avoided when it came out because it came out while I was directing a one act play I had written involving a peasant pretending to be a knight and the plot similarities meant I constantly got "oh it's like _A Knight's Tale_" from people. That and taking a much firmer stance against what I perceived as "anachronism" at the time made me resent it.

Now, on the other side of having done graduate work in Medieval Studies. I recognize that basically every piece of modern media dealing with the middle ages is an exercise in rampant anachronism (and for "medieval" fantasy that goes roughly quintuply so) and I appreciate _A Knight's Tale_ precisely for embracing anachronism and wielding it to further its narrative. That said I was disappointed that the subsequent uses of modern music, being more purely a soundtrack element not quite so clearly "in world", did not, in my eyes, quite live up to the opening with _We Will Rock_ _You_ being stomped along to by the crowd as it is in a modern sporting arena. Some sort  of Bardcore renditions of the songs would really take it to the next level for me.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 24, 2022)

On the subject of modern music in the _Willow_ series, I have mixed feelings simply because it doesn't feel in tune with the original movie. At first I felt it was an absolute mistake, then a trippy cover of _Hurdy Gurdy_ _Man_ that seemed to capture the mixed feelings of the scene wonderfully won me over at the end of the second episode to a "I guess I'm okay with it over the credits" stance. Now the show is testing me once again by using it over fight scenes and the like, and I think they'd do better to avoid that.

Actually I think they'd do better to lean on the music from the original movie. If that music doesn't fit at least a little somewhere in an episode it's probably a sign that the given episode has gone a little off the rails. And the best evidence for this is this fan tribute to the original main theme, which I think shows pretty clearly how in lock-step it was with the general vibe we expect out of the _Willow_ franchise:


That said, whatever sins this show may have committed against the tone of the movie, they pale in comparison to those of the _Chronicles of the Shadow War_ novel sequels.


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## Arilyn (Dec 25, 2022)

The modern music fits "A Knight's Tale" because of the movie's tone. It's not a serious story and the modern take works surprisingly well in that vein. The music doesn't really fit Willow, but I'm willing to overlook it. I'm finding, however, that I'm losing interest in the story and the characters. The tone has lost the light hearted adventure feel of the original movie. Willow almost feels like he's tacked on as an after thought, and it's all a little too serious and slow paced.


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## TheHand (Dec 25, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I’m behind (just reached Nockmaar) but a question - were Hubert and Anne suppose to be brownies? What was with Huberts weird speech patterns? Dumb they got killed off.
> Is the show bringing back the brownies?



Apparently they were just random NPCs in a forest?? Doesn't seem like they were brownies, but their scene felt so surreal I wondered the same thing!


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## Argyle King (Dec 25, 2022)

I liked Knight's Tale because it was a movie adaptation of Chaucer's writing.


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## MarkB (Dec 25, 2022)

TheHand said:


> Apparently they were just random NPCs in a forest?? Doesn't seem like they were brownies, but their scene felt so surreal I wondered the same thing!



I honestly thought they were some kind of guilt-induced hallucination brought on by the forest, which had been hinted as having weird effects. I only fully accepted that they were actually happening when Elora was recaptured.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 26, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I honestly thought they were some kind of guilt-induced hallucination brought on by the forest, which had been hinted as having weird effects. I only fully accepted that they were actually happening when Elora was recaptured.



Same


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## Zaukrie (Dec 26, 2022)

The more I think about this show, the less I like it. It's just so mediocre.


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## Bedrockgames (Dec 26, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I don't like A Knight's Tale specifically because the modern music did not fit and ruined it. Willow has been better about using it.




When it first came out, I had trouble with this. I was a history student and used to be very finicky. I was the same for Gladiator because I had just written a paper on Marcus Aurelius and the Antonine Emperors when the previews started coming out. But I changed how I enjoy movies set in historical periods and now I actually find Knights Tale to be a wonderful movie. Also I think modern music can add to a film like that. The Highlander was a movie that regularly used Queen music in its historical flashback sequences and that always seemed to work well. And it isn't like they had orchestral strings like you have in modern movie soundtracks in the middle ages. On the whole I am a lot less bothered by anachronisms now (movies are made in the time they are made and even the grittiest historical films usually reflect certain things from the period they were made.


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## MarkB (Dec 26, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> The more I think about this show, the less I like it. It's just so mediocre.



The problem is, it's not _just_ mediocre. There are moments of genuine brilliance. It irks me.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 26, 2022)

MarkB said:


> The problem is, it's not _just_ mediocre. There are moments of genuine brilliance. It irks me.



Right. I don't think the show knows what it is, for one thing. The inconsistency is an issue for sure. Both in quality and tone.


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## Bedrockgames (Dec 26, 2022)

Benjamin Olson said:


> On the subject of modern music in the _Willow_ series, I have mixed feelings simply because it doesn't feel in tune with the original movie.




This I think is a fair criticism even though the music didn't bother me. I think keeping the feel of  a series can be important. Maybe the new show is meant for a younger audience, in which case, updating the music might make sense for a younger audience. 

I tried watching the show and I found myself very underwhelmed with it, but the music wasn't particularly significant in shaping my opinion. It just seemed very phoned in to me. I might also just be getting tired of reboots, sequels, and reliance on old IP. I'd much rather see a new fantasy series that is original than something based on a movie I saw as a kid these days.


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## MNblockhead (Dec 26, 2022)

As a child of the 70s and 80s, I demand all fantasy movies use synth music and glam rock in their soundtracks!


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## Mallus (Dec 28, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I don't like A Knight's Tale specifically because the modern music did not fit and ruined it. Willow has been better about using it.



Modern music ruined the movie where Geoffrey Chaucer is basically Howard Cosell?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 28, 2022)

Mallus said:


> Modern music ruined the movie where Geoffrey Chaucer is basically Howard Cosell?




Yep, definitely. Or maybe it was just a stupid movie to begin with.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 28, 2022)

Mallus said:


> Modern music ruined the movie where Geoffrey Chaucer is basically Howard Cosell?



I've no idea who Howard Cosell is, but Geoffrey Chaucer was a popularist writer with a taste for low humour and sexual innuendo that wouldn't be out of place in a Carry On movie. What he was like as a person, no one knows, the historical record doesn't say, so the movie is as good a guess as anyone's.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 28, 2022)

Bedrockgames said:


> I might also just be getting tired of reboots, sequels, and reliance on old IP. I'd much rather see a new fantasy series that is original than something based on a movie I saw as a kid these days.



This one was an original IP in the 1980s, that most people had forgotten. That's as original as anything gets these days. It's the GenericFantasyland tropes that feel tired, and I'm afraid D&D and Tolkien have a lot to answer for for that. His Dark Materials (BBC) feels like a far more imaginative fantasy.


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## Mallus (Dec 28, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Or maybe it was just a stupid movie to begin with.



It’s a very clever film. But that kind of deliberate anachronism rubs some people the wrong way.


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## Mallus (Dec 28, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I've no idea who Howard Cosell is…



He’s a famous old sports broadcaster & journalist in the US. Which made Bettany’s Chaucer perfect, since A Knight’s Tale is a contemporary sports movie in medieval drag.


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## Bedrockgames (Dec 28, 2022)

Mallus said:


> He’s a famous old sports broadcaster & journalist in the US. Which made Bettany’s Chaucer perfect, since A Knight’s Tale is a contemporary sports movie in medieval drag.




I didn't get very strong Howard Cosell vibes from that performance


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## Bedrockgames (Dec 28, 2022)

Mallus said:


> It’s a very clever film. But that kind of deliberate anachronism rubs some people the wrong way.




It took me a while to appreciate this about movies like this. Like I said, as a history student I had serious trouble enjoying historical movies when I noticed those things. But I also realized I was being a killjoy and I wasn't seeing the film for what it was (and the idea that rock music is less anachronistic than a string symphony started to strike me as ridiculous when people pointed that out to me). The fact is there are almost always anachronisms, even if they aren't as visible as a Queen song. A lot of Americans movies think nothing of using an English accent to convey this was set in the past (but that doesn't really make senses as Romans wouldn't have had British accents-----but it makes sense if you want the Romans to be perceived a certain way by an American audience). So you are going to have anachronisms just by virtue of the fact that you are trying to communicate with a modern audience.


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## MarkB (Dec 28, 2022)

I think the latest episode is a bit of an improvement on recent entries, but it still had a few puzzlers.

The trolls were interestingly different than would be expected from their brief appearance in the movie, but overall I liked them. The contemporary speech patterns are still a little jarring - I was not expecting a troll to say "anywho".

How did it take Bardmartigan ten years to escape from that place? The way these people get around the mine's security is ridiculous. I can only assume that the Bone Reavers leader successfully freed all the slaves in the background, security was so lax.

More strong D&D-session vibes as Elora and Graydon carry out an entire unrelated conversation in the middle of combat. Would only have been mildly enhanced if one of them kept checking their phone.

The Airk scenes were mildly interesting, but I can't quite tell whether he's caught up in some kind of magic which inevitably leads him back to the city, or if he's just terrible at navigation.

The ending song is the most incongruous modern-music-insert yet, and I just can't tell what it was intended to relate to in the story - either of my best guesses seems like too much of a stretch.


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## Ryujin (Dec 28, 2022)

Bedrockgames said:


> It took me a while to appreciate this about movies like this. Like I said, as a history student I had serious trouble enjoying historical movies when I noticed those things. But I also realized I was being a killjoy and I wasn't seeing the film for what it was (and the idea that rock music is less anachronistic than a string symphony started to strike me as ridiculous when people pointed that out to me). The fact is there are almost always anachronisms, even if they aren't as visible as a Queen song. A lot of Americans movies think nothing of using an English accent to convey this was set in the past (but that doesn't really make senses as Romans wouldn't have had British accents-----but it makes sense if you want the Romans to be perceived a certain way by an American audience). So you are going to have anachronisms just by virtue of the fact that you are trying to communicate with a modern audience.



As the Ninth Doctor would say, "Lots of planets have a North."


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## Ryujin (Dec 28, 2022)

I think the person who said they thought that the world of "Willow" was post apocalyptic might be on to something. Did anyone take a good look at the ruined city where Airk is being held? Would would a fantasy "medieval" city need 6 lane roads, let alone _overpasses_? It also has a modern style grid layout and a distinctly high-rise skyline.


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## MarkB (Dec 28, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I think the person who said they thought that the world of "Willow" was post apocalyptic might be on to something. Did anyone take a good look at the ruined city where Airk is being held? Would would a fantasy "medieval" city need 6 lane roads, let alone _overpasses_? It also has a modern style grid layout and a distinctly high-rise skyline.



Yeah, definitely doesn't look like a medieval city. But not like any real-world modern city, either - the architecture is distinctive, and there's a proliferation of statues rivalling the size of the larger buildings. Maybe like a modern-day Roman Empire city, though it doesn't really have enough columns for that.


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## Ryujin (Dec 28, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Yeah, definitely doesn't look like a medieval city. But not like any real-world modern city, either - the architecture is distinctive, and there's a proliferation of statues rivalling the size of the larger buildings. Maybe like a modern-day Roman Empire city, though it doesn't really have enough columns for that.



The huge statue thing seems to be a thing these days; Willow, Rings of Power, The Peripheral...


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## Zaukrie (Dec 29, 2022)

We thought it was a pretty good episode.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 29, 2022)

I think Willow is ripping off my D&D campaign! I used that "nothing" riddle a few months ago! Although I stole it from Baldur's Gate 2, so maybe it's not me being ripped off.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 29, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I think the person who said they thought that the world of "Willow" was post apocalyptic might be on to something. Did anyone take a good look at the ruined city where Airk is being held? Would would a fantasy "medieval" city need 6 lane roads, let alone _overpasses_? It also has a modern style grid layout and a distinctly high-rise skyline.



This is overthinking it. Willow is neither medieval or post-apocalypse. It's quite deliberately ahistorical, which is why they put a piece of modern music in each episode to drive that point home.

Weird alien city is weirdly alien. GenericFantasyland is full of them.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 29, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> The huge statue thing seems to be a thing these days; Willow, Rings of Power, The Peripheral...



Giant statues are cool.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 29, 2022)

MarkB said:


> The Airk scenes were mildly interesting, but I can't quite tell whether he's caught up in some kind of magic which inevitably leads him back to the city, or if he's just terrible at navigation.



Pocket dimension.


----------



## jdrakeh (Dec 29, 2022)

I just started watching this tonight and, while it's not perfect, it's been a lot of fun for me. Warwick is especially entertaining. I'm glad that Disney decided to go through with this series.


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## Ryujin (Dec 29, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> This is overthinking it. Willow is neither medieval or post-apocalypse. It's quite deliberately ahistorical, which is why they put a piece of modern music in each episode to drive that point home.
> 
> Weird alien city is weirdly alien. GenericFantasyland is full of them.



Just pointing out that it seems a fair bit of effort was put into making the skyline look like a modern city. That's a fair bit away from 'weirdly alien' in that it looks quite familiar to modern viewers.


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## Wolfram stout (Dec 29, 2022)

> MarkB said:
> 
> 
> > The Airk scenes were mildly interesting, but I can't quite tell whether he's caught up in some kind of magic which inevitably leads him back to the city, or if he's just terrible at navigation.




The show is very D&D.  Airk's player is the guy that shows up for the first session and then misses several.  He was suppose to show up this week so the DM had him escape  but the player bailed again at the last minute.  So, the DM just threw the character back into the city.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 29, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Giant statues are cool.



And hardly a new thing.


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## Argyle King (Dec 30, 2022)

Drastic change to the trolls from the movie. 

They went from wild beasts to C-list Star Trek villains with Xena: Warrior Princess dialogue.

 The show isn't what I would imagine would follow up on the movie. I still enjoy the show as something lighter to casually watch. I just had to mentally adjust to a very different tone, genre, and style.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 30, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Drastic change to the trolls from the movie.



Just because the trolls in the movie didn't speak, there was no reason to suppose they _couldn't_ speak.


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## Argyle King (Dec 30, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Just because the trolls in the movie didn't speak, there was no reason to suppose they _couldn't_ speak.





True

But I would say that bestial semi-upright movements and violent behavior while loitering in the ruins of civilization is noticeably different than being a suzerain of an elaborate underground complex and a slavery ring. 

The episode's dialogue hints that maybe whatever Bavmorda did to help refine their worm-juice changed them in some way. 

I still enjoy show. It's just very different than I thought it would be.


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## MarkB (Dec 30, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> True
> 
> But I would say that bestial semi-upright movements and violent behavior while loitering in the ruins of civilization is noticeably different than being a suzerain of an elaborate underground complex and a slavery ring.
> 
> ...



One thing I did wish we got to see was some of their creepy wall-crawling. That was really well-done in the movie.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 4, 2023)

Well, that was a lot of fun and yet another very D&D episode!


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## MarkB (Jan 4, 2023)

Good use of the modern music in this one, backing a training montage which was actually edited to the music.

The Shattered Sea turns out to be a rather unique location that would make for an interesting locale in many D&D campaigns. Kenneth is adorable.

The B plot with Airk, on the other hand, played out pretty much as predictably as it possibly could have.


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## MNblockhead (Jan 4, 2023)

A few scenes got a hard eye roll from me, but overall I enjoyed it. The ending has me excited for the season finale.


----------



## Ryujin (Jan 4, 2023)

Something that I forgot to mention last episode: I really wish that they had done something to hide the 5mm thick "edge" on Madmartigan's sword. Just rounding it off, instead of leaving it flat, would have made it look more like an edge by not showing such a wide area of reflected light. Maybe I'm just too sensitive to it, having a small collection of swords?


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## MNblockhead (Jan 5, 2023)

Ryujin said:


> Something that I forgot to mention last episode: I really wish that they had done something to hide the 5mm thick "edge" on Madmartigan's sword. Just rounding it off, instead of leaving it flat, would have made it look more like an edge by not showing such a wide area of reflected light. Maybe I'm just too sensitive to it, having a small collection of swords?



I didn't notice it, but I don't have much real-world experience with swords. But I've had to work at ignoring things I see in movies involving guns, lest I lose all sense of immersion or annoy my wife with sarcastic comments. I'm not even a "gun guy." I just have enough experience with guns to note the silliness. Also, I was really into snakes when younger and that is another thing that I can't help unsee in movies. When they use corn or milk snakes as stand-ins for poisonous snakes. When you know even a bit about something that showmakers expect that vast majority of viewers will know nothing about, you are going to find yourself annoyed by things that most people don't give a second thought about. 

Luckily I don't know enough about magic for its depictions in shows to bother me. ;-)


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## Ryujin (Jan 5, 2023)

MNblockhead said:


> I didn't notice it, but I don't have much real-world experience with swords. But I've had to work at ignoring things I see in movies involving guns, lest I lose all sense of immersion or annoy my wife with sarcastic comments. I'm not even a "gun guy." I just have enough experience with guns to note the silliness. Also, I was really into snakes when younger and that is another thing that I can't help unsee in movies. When they use corn or milk snakes as stand-ins for poisonous snakes. When you know even a bit about something that showmakers expect that vast majority of viewers will know nothing about, you are going to find yourself annoyed by things that most people don't give a second thought about.
> 
> Luckily I don't know enough about magic for its depictions in shows to bother me. ;-)



And, of course, King Snakes standing in for Coral Snakes. "Red touch yellow, kill a fellow. Red touch black, venom lack."

Some things just jump right out at me in a terrible way, like obviously blunt sword blades. I didn't mention that it also looked like it was made of aluminum, because a goodly number of stunt weapons are. If I remember correctly a ton of the swords in LotR were aluminum.

Then there's the 30 MPH motorcycle chases. ( I have 8 racing schools, two advanced street riding schools, and over 20 years of motorcycle racing photography in my background.)

... and armour (I make both welded steel and costume grade aluminum chainmail.)

... and the guns. (Firearms and Restricted Weapons certs here in Canada)

... and the archery. (No expert but I know the basics, and make bows from oak and PVC pipe.)

_EDIT_ - And let's not get started on the on-screen "computer hacking" 

I try to ignore such things, however, some transgressions are particularly egregious. I appreciate when the effort is made to make something at least _look_ real.


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## Aeson (Jan 5, 2023)

When did Elora's hair turn red? Did I miss something?


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## Ryujin (Jan 5, 2023)

Aeson said:


> When did Elora's hair turn red? Did I miss something?



Yes. That she always had red hair, since Willow's kids first found her, and had been bleaching it.


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## Aeson (Jan 5, 2023)

Ryujin said:


> _EDIT_ - And let's not get started on the on-screen "computer hacking"
> 
> I try to ignore such things, however, some transgressions are particularly egregious. I appreciate when the effort is made to make something at least _look_ real.



"Can you zoom in and enhance that license plate?"


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## MarkB (Jan 5, 2023)

Aeson said:


> When did Elora's hair turn red? Did I miss something?



Wasn't there something in an early episode about them dyeing her hair to disguise her? And then this trip across the Shattered Sea took weeks.

EDIt: @Ryujin had it covered.


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## Aeson (Jan 5, 2023)

Ryujin said:


> Yes. That she always had red hair, since Willow's kids first found her, and had been bleaching it.



I know she was born with red hair and they were bleaching it. It just seemed to me like BOOM red all the sudden. I just wondered if as she's growing in power her hair is changing too.


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## MarkB (Jan 5, 2023)

Aeson said:


> I know she was born with red hair and they were bleaching it. It just seemed to me like BOOM red all the sudden. I just wondered if as she's growing in power her hair is changing too.



It's more like BOOM - combined training / travel montage.


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## Aeson (Jan 5, 2023)

MarkB said:


> It's more like BOOM - combined training / travel montage.



I guess I was thinking time passed in days not weeks. If they were out there for weeks it makes sense.


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## Ryujin (Jan 5, 2023)

Aeson said:


> "Can you zoom in and enhance that license plate?"


----------



## MNblockhead (Jan 5, 2023)

Aeson said:


> I guess I was thinking time passed in days not weeks. If they were out there for weeks it makes sense.



They referenced weeks or months. Apparently the length of days were longer and it got more difficult to track time the further out they travelled (or the closer they got to Immortal City, which doesn't appear to have days).


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## Zaukrie (Jan 5, 2023)

Quality episode


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 5, 2023)

Aeson said:


> I know she was born with red hair and they were bleaching it. It just seemed to me like BOOM red all the sudden. I just wondered if as she's growing in power her hair is changing too.



It was deliberately done to indicate the passage of time. How else would you do it, other than have someone regularly rattling off how may weeks had passed since the start of the quest?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 5, 2023)

Now, for a plot question. Is the princess of Cashmere working with the Crone, under the Crone's mental control or actually possessed by the spirit of the Crone? Or did the Crone simply shapeshift into the appearance of the princess? The way the character is acted, it feels like she is the real princess, but I can't figure beyond that.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 5, 2023)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Now, for a plot question. Is the princess of Cashmere working with the Crone, under the Crone's mental control or actually possessed by the spirit of the Crone? Or did the Crone simply shapeshift into the appearance of the princess? The way the character is acted, it feels like she is the real princess, but I can't figure beyond that.



Probably either the crone herself or high-ranking minion. She has been their for a long time - listen to the ex-paladin's stories.


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## Tonguez (Jan 5, 2023)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Now, for a plot question. Is the princess of Cashmere working with the Crone, under the Crone's mental control or actually possessed by the spirit of the Crone? Or did the Crone simply shapeshift into the appearance of the princess? The way the character is acted, it feels like she is the real princess, but I can't figure beyond that.



Yeah I got the feeling that she is the Crone, it would be an interesting backstory if the Crone really was once a princess of Cashmere who wanted to be free - though her subsequently becoming an evil withered BBEG who abducts princesses might not read so well.

oh and the Paladins stories were all true

and wasnt the Mudmander cute  - do we think it will be back in a future episode to save the day?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 5, 2023)

With a sideline in natty knitwear?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 5, 2023)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Probably either the crone herself or high-ranking minion. She has been their for a long time - listen to the ex-paladin's stories.




Yes, if she is the real princess, she has been in the city for decades, but time also passes differently there, than in the rest of the world.


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## MarkB (Jan 5, 2023)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yes, if she is the real princess, she has been in the city for decades, but time also passes differently there, than in the rest of the world.



I'm not sure it's that time passes differently there. They've been journeying north to reach this city, the days getting longer and the nights shorter, so it could simply be in the north polar region, where the sun never completely sets during the summer.

Admittedly the climate there isn't exactly arctic, but hey, fantasy planet.


----------



## Ryujin (Jan 5, 2023)

I almost want to think that they're living on a disk world and how they got to the city was jumping off the edge, into another pocket dimension.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jan 6, 2023)

Ryujin said:


> I almost want to think that they're living on a disk world and how they got to the city was jumping off the edge, into another pocket dimension.



No reason for them not to be on a discworld. It's not like the Pratchett estate can sue over the concept.

"The Worm" is actually a Chelys Galactica, and the Interminable City is built on the turtle's head.

There is another world turtle in a recent movie, but to tell you which one would be a spoiler.


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## Benjamin Olson (Jan 6, 2023)

Aeson said:


> I know she was born with red hair and they were bleaching it. It just seemed to me like BOOM red all the sudden. I just wondered if as she's growing in power her hair is changing too.



It feels to me like something that has multiple possible explanations of which they should have at least directly hinted at one in dialogue at some point rather than leave it to distract. Whether it's a matter of magic usage, finding her inner Elora Danan, or just the idea that her hair has grown out over a very long journey, it's a nice detail that unfortunately pulled me out of the episode because it became a distraction of "oh does she have red hair now, or is that just lighting? When did it become red? Why?".


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 7, 2023)

Benjamin Olson said:


> It feels to me like something that has multiple possible explanations of which they should have at least directly hinted at one in dialogue at some point rather than leave it to distract. Whether it's a matter of magic usage, finding her inner Elora Danan, or just the idea that her hair has grown out over a very long journey, it's a nice detail that unfortunately pulled me out of the episode because it became a distraction of "oh does she have red hair now, or is that just lighting? When did it become red? Why?".



I find it irritating when TV shows feel the need to spell out every single plot point, rather than trust the audience to work it out themselves. I've just been catching up on Leverage, and all the flashbacks it uses to spell out obvious plot points gets tedious.


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## Benjamin Olson (Jan 7, 2023)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I find it irritating when TV shows feel the need to spell out every single plot point, rather than trust the audience to work it out themselves. I've just been catching up on Leverage, and all the flashbacks it uses to spell out obvious plot points gets tedious.



Fair point. But it is also a problem if something is left to the audience in a way that distracts them from being immersed in the show. The fact that there are multiple explanations for the hair color change made it something where instead of coming to a conclusion of why I weighed possibilities rather than pay attention to the episode.

And ultimately in a show where characters barely even change costumes from one episode to the next and where they spend a lot of time making semi-idle chit-chat and banter it feels weird to have a dramatic physical change go unremarked upon. It felt less like a cool detail and more like I had just fallen into a Berenstein/Berenstain scenario where her hair was always red in the show.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jan 8, 2023)

Benjamin Olson said:


> Fair point. But it is also a problem if something is left to the audience in a way that distracts them from being immersed in the show. The fact that there are multiple explanations for the hair color change made it something where instead of coming to a conclusion of why I weighed possibilities rather than pay attention to the episode.
> 
> And ultimately in a show where characters barely even change costumes from one episode to the next and where they spend a lot of time making semi-idle chit-chat and banter it feels weird to have a dramatic physical change go unremarked upon. It felt less like a cool detail and more like I had just fallen into a Berenstein/Berenstain scenario where her hair was always red in the show.



Both are true. It was done to indicate the passage of time, and also to indicate character growth. Most of the characters got a costume changes in that episode. Also see MMOs, where characters get a costume change when they level up.


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## MarkB (Wednesday at 9:49 PM)

Well, it's all over. A bit of temptation, a bit of combat, some terrible fight choreography, a bit of very cliched "you just need to believe in yourself", and a tiny bit of a twist ending.

I think what really disappoints me in this series is the magic. They do some mildly interesting stuff in the visuals with the zig-zaggy spell blasts, but it's all just blasts and a bit of blocking and shielding. Willow the movie had some really creative transformation magic that's completely absent here.

This was a series I wanted to like a lot more than I did. It had a lot of promise, and moments of fun, quality and creativity throughout, but they were overwhelmed by the clunky plotting, inconsistent characterisation and varying tone. It really does feel more like a D&D campaign than a TV series, between the combat so stilted that it feels turn-based, the odd party dynamic and the far-from seamless blending in of modernisms in speech and soundtrack that give the impression of a group of players not quite managing to stay in-character while the DM's eclectic background music collection plays on shuffle in the background.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Wednesday at 9:57 PM)

Awesome Force Lightning raw sorcery energy battle.

That armor is going to show up in so many D&D campaigns.

Nice teaser at the end that two more seasons are planned.


----------



## Rabulias (Thursday at 12:06 AM)

Surprised they did not use "All You Need Is Love" over the scene with Airk's "exorcism". 

I agree the show was very swingy in tone. Some parts of it I loved and thought were fitting heirs to the film. Other moments took me out of the world they had built.


----------



## Argyle King (Thursday at 3:48 PM)

I know that saving Airik from evil is supposed to be a positive thing, but it's hard not to feel that the end result is a bit of a buzzkill for him. 

He battles his own impulses to be a boyish womanizer and try to commit to one person, only for her to say,"nah, I'm not interested now."

He also finds out that he had the potential to be something special, but now he's just back to being the child who takes a backseat to his sister's importance. 

What did he gain from being "saved"?


----------



## Rabulias (Thursday at 3:59 PM)

Argyle King said:


> What did he gain from being "saved"?



It looks like he lost a massive Charisma penalty after his appearance became less Crone-like.


----------



## Mallus (Thursday at 4:06 PM)

That ended surprisingly well. Willow escaped the curse of the 'fantastic _penultimate_ episode'.


----------



## Argyle King (Thursday at 4:10 PM)

Rabulias said:


> It looks like he lost a massive Charisma penalty after his appearance became less Crone-like.




Yeah. I'd agree that he was momentarily turned into a monster. That wasn't good.

At the same time, I feel like he's the only character who regressed into a lesser form at the end of the adventure. It was teased that he might evolve in competence or have some character growth beyond being a spoiled palace gigolo, but then all of that gets waved away.

Elora gained confidence and ability. 
Kit inherited a magic artifact and found love.
Boorman learned to be (somewhat) less self-centered...

...virtually everyone progressed in some way. In contrast, Airik regressed in a lot of ways.


----------



## Rabulias (Thursday at 4:12 PM)

Argyle King said:


> ...virtually everyone progressed in some way. In contrast, Airik regressed in a lot of ways.



Well, maybe Airk gets his development in season 2 or 3?


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## Argyle King (Thursday at 4:15 PM)

Rabulias said:


> Well, maybe Airk gets his development in season 2 or 3?




Maybe. I think it could be interesting to explore how being held captive had a lasting effect on him. 

Right now, as it stands, it's not exactly a positive message to show him strive to change his impulses and be a better man for someone he cares about just to be told he's now less interesting because of that change.


----------



## MarkB (Thursday at 4:59 PM)

Argyle King said:


> Maybe. I think it could be interesting to explore how being held captive had a lasting effect on him.
> 
> Right now, as it stands, it's not exactly a positive message to show him strive to change his impulses and be a better man for someone he cares about just to be told he's now less interesting because of that change.



Is that what he did? As far as I saw, he gave into his impulses, let the Crone seduce him to her cause and became a whole lot creepier because of it, which played a large part in Elora rejecting him (though obviously not as large as the part where their relationship was clearly based more on infatuation than love in the first place).

Airk didn't conquer his impulses. The Crone's entire sales pitch is freedom to do whatever you want - she is not about impulse control. She sold him on a power trip and he went along with her. Yes, he's right back to where he started, but that's a step up for him.


----------



## Argyle King (Thursday at 5:08 PM)

MarkB said:


> Is that what he did? As far as I saw, he gave into his impulses, let the Crone seduce him to her cause and became a whole lot creepier because of it, which played a large part in Elora rejecting him (though obviously not as large as the part where their relationship was clearly based more on infatuation than love in the first place).
> 
> Airk didn't conquer his impulses. The Crone's entire sales pitch is freedom to do whatever you want - she is not about impulse control. She sold him on a power trip and he went along with her. Yes, he's right back to where he started, but that's a step up for him.




After being held prisoner for weeks (as everyone else was going to dance parties) and having nothing to drink but worm juice, the Crone forced non-consensual physical contact on him and magically brainwashed him. 

Even with that, his feelings for Elora still held. Admittedly in a skewed way during the enchantment, but they still held. 

I don't even think he's back to where he started. He's arguably lesser than where he started.


----------



## MarkB (Thursday at 5:24 PM)

Argyle King said:


> After being held prisoner for weeks (as everyone else was going to dance parties) and having nothing to drink but worm juice, the Crone forced non-consensual physical contact on him and magically brainwashed him.
> 
> Even with that, his feelings for Elora still held. Admittedly in a skewed way during the enchantment, but they still held.
> 
> I don't even think he's back to where he started. He's arguably lesser than where he started.



His 'feelings' for Elora (such as they were) held _because_ the Crone wanted them to hold, not in spite of her. She needed them to marry and kiss so that the Worm, through Airk, could take Elora's power.


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## Argyle King (Thursday at 5:33 PM)

MarkB said:


> His 'feelings' for Elora (such as they were) held _because_ the Crone wanted them to hold, not in spite of her. She needed them to marry and kiss so that the Worm, through Airk, could take Elora's power.




And yet she had to force herself on him after he rejected her by saying he had real feelings for Elora.

Now, Elora plays with the flute of the guy who actually did turn on the rest of the party earlier in the show. Apparently, that's forgivable but being held captive, drugged with weeks of worm juice, and magically brainwashed is held against Airik.

Not to mention that Airik's natural impulse was to try to save Kit (when she fell into the wormjuice lake) even when he was in the personal presence of the Crone.


----------



## MarkB (Thursday at 5:57 PM)

Argyle King said:


> And yet she had to force herself on him after he rejected her by saying he had real feelings for Elora.
> 
> Now, Elora plays with the flute of the guy who actually did turn on the rest of the party earlier in the show. Apparently, that's forgivable but being held captive, drugged with weeks of worm juice, and magically brainwashed is held against Airik.



I don't hold it against him, the poor kid never really had a chance, stranded there without any support from friends or family, and he held out an amazingly long time. But what happened to him over the last couple of episodes wasn't character growth, it was the Crone finally managing to overpower his will.


Argyle King said:


> Not to mention that Airik's natural impulse was to try to save Kit (when she fell into the wormjuice lake) even when he was in the personal presence of the Crone.



Absolutely - he was still in there somewhere. But what's really telling regarding his relationship to Elora is that when it comes down to that final appeal to love to bring him back from the dark place he'd ended up, she backs right off and lets his sister do the talking. That's the loving relationship that could bring him back to sanity.


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## Ryujin (Thursday at 6:30 PM)

Well it seems that Airk is still bound to be king by order of birth, so he needs some character development.


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## Zardnaar (Thursday at 10:14 PM)

Watched latest two episodes. It's getting rough quality isn't the best.


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