# Druids suck? vs Shape Change and Polymorph



## Paul9000 (Oct 6, 2005)

So, I have been playing a druid for several months and have now reached level 12. I have been sticking to the animal forms as that is all I can do, but recently I prestige classed to a MOMF and can now do giant and humanoid. Then I started reading the WOTC forum related to shape changing and I was wondering -- WHAT THE HECK IS THE POINT OF PLAYING A DRUID... if you can duplicate his powers with polymorph and the shape change spell, which I believe is far superior to the druids wild shape ability. 

Please someone tell me why druids are better than wizards with a polymorph/shape change and don't say its because they get Resist Nature's Lure  . Even the druid gets the shape change spell at level 17 so who needs wild shape after that level. Shape change would last for 3 hours and I could change once per round as a free action to something that is double my HD. Am I missing something?


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## Thanee (Oct 6, 2005)

Duration 1h/level. 

Other than that, while _Polymorph_ is surely more powerful than Wildshape, druids have a few other benefits, like better BAB, HP, Saves, skill points, etc. Also with Natural Spell they can be pretty hard to identify as spellcasters even while casting spells.

Bye
Thanee


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 6, 2005)

a) Having to wait that many levels for a spell that high a level kind of sucks. Druids can wildshape pretty early in their careers, and they get it multiple times per day.
2) Cure spells. Really handy.
iii) Druids don't have to buy spells, or put them in a book--they know all of their possible spells
D) Druids have a better hit die and BAB than Wizards, and so make much better fighter-types
cinco) There are lots of Wildshape feats that come in really handy


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## DevoutlyApathetic (Oct 6, 2005)

You get one at 5th level and the other at 17th.

Clearly they should both be completely equal in power.


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## Grogtar (Oct 6, 2005)

Oh Gee. Maybe its that druids get everything. 

They have a full 1-9 spell progression full of damn fine spells. And they get better with EVERY splat book.

They have wild shape, total versatility. At 12th level you have a variety of Str 28 or 30 monsters you can turn into for combat. A few Spot +10 for scouting. A bunch of Con 25+ to heal a bit or take some dmg. 

You also get a progression of excellent abilities ALL THE WAY up your leveling tree.

Put your Druid side by side with a Cleric, and look at what clerics get and what druids get. Then you will see. Clerics get their 1-9 spellcasting and turn undead. THATS IT.

Druids get 1-9 Spell Casting, Wild Shape (Which is quite literally infinate in its uses) and a full line up of level abilities. Its a 20 level prestige class.

On the WOTC Character Optimization Boards Druid 20 is considered one of the most powerfull builds.


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## satori01 (Oct 6, 2005)

So while you are Wildshaped into a Dire Ape, and still able to use most of your equipment, you can stop and cast Infestation of Maggots from Complete Divine on someone.


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## Felix (Oct 6, 2005)

Because Druids are cool?

Seriously. I'm scotch-irish, so maybe I have a bias thinking that celts and their priests were hard-hitting S.O.B.'s. And that Merlin in King Arthur and his fellow Woads make great druids.

_Wild Shape_ also comes into the game much earlier than those spells. Your druid will have been shaping for 12 levels when the wizard finally gets Shapechange. And comparing to Polymorph... _Wild Shape_ lasts longer and you always have the option to switch out to something else, unlike _polymorph_.

Finally, a druid with _Wild Shape_ doesn't have to spend one of his 9th level slots on _Shapechange_. Ask yourself which is better... A Wizard with _Shapechange_ or a Druid with _Wild Shape_ and a _Storm of Vengance_ or an _Elemental Swarm_.

----

By the way, many classes have beef with the wizard/cleric because they have spells that mirror their class abilities.
_Find Traps
Tenser's Transformation
Discern Location
Find the Path
Spiderclimb_

Et cetera. So the question is, why is anyone playing any class besides a full caster? What are we missing? 

Because it's fun?


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## Infiniti2000 (Oct 6, 2005)

Wildshape does not provoke an AoO and you can use it while grappled.  The wizard cannot polymorph once he is grappled unless he has prepared it with Still spell (5th level spell now) and Eschew Materials (or happens to miraculously have it in hand) and then he still needs to make a nontrivial DC 24 Concentration check.  Also, wildshape cannot be dispelled though it goes away in an antimagic field.

Probably the biggest benefit of wildshape, though, is animal growth and other druidic buff spells that the wizard does not have and cannot even cast while in animal form.


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## Paul9000 (Oct 6, 2005)

Ok, yes I wasn't arguing that druids are slightly better fighters than wizards, I was comparing their wild shape ability to the spells that allow you to do the same. If you are able to get as a Druid the Shape Change spell at 17th lvel what is the point of getting the ability to change into a huge elemental of 17 HD when I could do Gargantuan of 34 HD with shape change?

Paul


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## Infiniti2000 (Oct 6, 2005)

Why are you stuck on comparing a 5th level ability with a 17th level ability?  I think the differences between wildshape and a spell are clear, so what more are you looking for?


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## Dimwhit (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000 said:
			
		

> Ok, yes I wasn't arguing that druids are slightly better fighters than wizards, I was comparing their wild shape ability to the spells that allow you to do the same. If you are able to get as a Druid the Shape Change spell at 17th lvel what is the point of getting the ability to change into a huge elemental of 17 HD when I could do Gargantuan of 34 HD with shape change?
> 
> Paul



 First, you can't Shapechange into something with more HD than you have, to a max of 25HD. Druids also get the Elementals EX, SU, and SP abilities, as well as their feats. I don't think Shapechange offers those. And, as mentioned, you get to work off a higher BAB, better base saves, and more HP from the Druid than with the Wizard, so it's easier to be a front line fighter.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000 said:
			
		

> Ok, yes I wasn't arguing that druids are slightly better fighters than wizards, I was comparing their wild shape ability to the spells that allow you to do the same. If you are able to get as a Druid the Shape Change spell at 17th lvel what is the point of getting the ability to change into a huge elemental of 17 HD when I could do Gargantuan of 34 HD with shape change?
> 
> Paul



 Well, you originally said, "I was wondering -- WHAT THE HECK IS THE POINT OF PLAYING A DRUID... if you can duplicate his powers with polymorph and the shape change spell, which I believe is far superior to the druids wild shape ability."

The point of playing a Druid rather than a Wizard is that they have lots of cool abilities and benefits that you can't get from a Wizard.

Now, if you want to compare Wildshape to Shapechange, a 9th level spell with beat out a 5th level class ability almost every time. That's an unfair comparison. You might have to ask something much more specific like, "For someone interested in changing shapes or alternate forms, which is better-Wildshape or Shapechange?" That might get you more of a variety of answers.


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## Dimwhit (Oct 6, 2005)

Not to mention that Shapechange can be dispelled, whereas Wild Shape cannot. Wild Shape can also be a source of healing, since you can heal some HP ever time you shape (several times per day), whereas Shapechange only offeres it the one time. I think.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 6, 2005)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> And, as mentioned, you get to work off a higher BAB, better base saves, and more HP from the Druid than with the Wizard, so it's easier to be a front line fighter.



Just to add: Which is, arguably, the point of the spell and the ability.


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## Paul9000 (Oct 6, 2005)

Shape change allows you to go as high as you want in hd up to 2x your cuurent level.. I believe the text in the PHB actually mentions 50HD as an example and it does give you ALL of the abilities of the creature SU and Spell like included. As for comparing Shape Change to a fifth level ability you are missing the polymorph spell which a wizard gets at 7th level. And it is true that it can't be dispelled but an anti magic field should negate the wild shape ability. 

Paul


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## Dimwhit (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000 said:
			
		

> Shape change allows you to go as high as you want in hd up to 2x your cuurent level.. I believe the text in the PHB actually mentions 50HD as an example and it does give you ALL of the abilities of the creature SU and Spell like included. As for comparing Shape Change to a fifth level ability you are missing the polymorph spell which a wizard gets at 7th level. And it is true that it can't be dispelled but an anti magic field should negate the wild shape ability.
> 
> Paul




I don't know about the PHB, but here's the Shapechange text from the SRD:



> Shapechange
> 
> Transmutation
> Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D)
> ...




As for Polymorph vs Wild Shape, the differences have been noted.  They're not huge, but you get it multiple times per day, it lasts 1hr/level, it can't be dispelled...there are others.


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## lukelightning (Oct 6, 2005)

Don't forget that druids have access to the _shapechange_ spell too.


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## Infiniti2000 (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000 said:
			
		

> Shape change allows you to go as high as you want in hd up to 2x your cuurent level.. I believe the text in the PHB actually mentions 50HD as an example and it does give you ALL of the abilities of the creature SU and Spell like included. As for comparing Shape Change to a fifth level ability you are missing the polymorph spell which a wizard gets at 7th level. And it is true that it can't be dispelled but an anti magic field should negate the wild shape ability.
> 
> Paul



 You missed the errata: _Second sentence of spell description is in error. Change “more than twice your caster level in Hit Dice” to “more than your caster level in Hit Dice.” Also, change “50” to “25”._


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## Paul9000 (Oct 6, 2005)

Yes, I did miss that piece of errata apparently and yes it can't be dispelled but what about an Anti Magic Field? Even so, you could use the shapechange ability to far better affect than your wild shape elemental ability since you could change elemental types every round and are not limited to huge.

Paul


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## Paul9000 (Oct 6, 2005)

We are kind of off the beaten path here....

All I am saying is that one of the major powers of a druid is to get wild shape which many "feat" slots are devoted to at various levels and it all seems kind of pointless when once you reach 17th level you get to do all of that and more with a single spell. Not to mention wizards can just about keep up with you using polymorph and their shapechange spell. Then you throw in the pet whihc is negated really by the wizards familiar 

   ok so Toad is not quite = dire wolf, but you can get improved familiar too. 

that leaves a druid with a slightly better attack bonus, 1 more good ST, and some healing spells. 

As far as flavor goes I do love the druid I was just kinda bummed last night after reading all of the comparisons and finding out that my wild shape wasn't that special especially since we are playing gestalt classes and I am a Druid 12 Ranger 10 and MOMF 2. MOMF seems kind of pointless when I will get the shapechange spell eventually.

Paul


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## Dimwhit (Oct 6, 2005)

It really comes down to the player and how he/she plays the characters. I've played a high-level Wizard (who had Shapechange) and a high-level Druid. I loved them both. I prefer Wild Shape over Shapechange, but that's just me. I think high-level Wizards are much more effective when they just blow stuff up.


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## Felix (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000 said:
			
		

> As for comparing Shape Change to a fifth level ability you are missing the polymorph spell which a wizard gets at 7th level.



And you are missing or ignoring all the posts wich already commented on the Wild Shape v Polymorph question. If this thread was begun in earnest, read all the replies before you repost.


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## glass (Oct 6, 2005)

At 17th level, wild shape lasts 17 hours, which means you can keep it up all day. Shapechange lasts 170 minutes, which means you can't.

So of course shapechange is better, it costs you more. Wildshape costs you basically nothing. Shapechange costs you a 9th level spell slot and, perhaps more importantly, it costs you an action. At 17th level, a standard action is a huge price to pay!


glass.


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## Paul9000 (Oct 6, 2005)

honestly, I did read them all ,we just seemed to have gotten stuck on comparing Shapechange at 17th level to wild shape at 5th level and that is not a good comparison. I was merely trying to state that Shapechange should be compared to the Druids elemental wild shape at higher levels and keep the polymorph ->wild shape comaprison for the lower levels.

Paul


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## Deset Gled (Oct 6, 2005)

If the posts above don't persuade you, I highly recommend building a level 12 wizard/sorcerer focused on shape changing spells and replacing your Druid with it for a mission or two.  I think you will find fairly quickly that althought the wizard gives you a lot of good spells, their ability to change shape and enter melee combat is very limited.  Very limited indeed.


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## glass (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000 said:
			
		

> honestly, I did read them all ,we just seemed to have gotten stuck on comparing Shapechange at 17th level to wild shape at 5th level and that is not a good comparison. I was merely trying to state that Shapechange should be compared to the Druids elemental wild shape at higher levels and keep the polymorph ->wild shape comaprison for the lower levels.



But wildshape is even better in comparison with polymorph than it is in comparison with shapechange.

Polymorph doesn't get you supurnatural or spelllike abilities, and it last even less time than shapechange does (and massively less than wild shape).

_EDIT: Oops, shapechange doesn't grant spelllike abilities either!_


glass.


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## Pinotage (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000 said:
			
		

> honestly, I did read them all ,we just seemed to have gotten stuck on comparing Shapechange at 17th level to wild shape at 5th level and that is not a good comparison. I was merely trying to state that Shapechange should be compared to the Druids elemental wild shape at higher levels and keep the polymorph ->wild shape comaprison for the lower levels.
> 
> Paul




Duration: Druid wins
Number of times per day: Druids wins
Utility: Wizard wins
Use of ability (grappling, etc): Druid wins

They're two entirely different beasts - I'm not sure why you're comparing them. It's like saying what's the point in playing a fighter when a wizard can shapechange into something that has a larger attack bonus than the fighter. All classes have a point. What exactly do you want to know, then maybe we can help a little better.

Pinotage


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## Felix (Oct 6, 2005)

Low Levels: _Polymorph_ v _Wild Shape_

WS does not take up a spell slot.
WS lasts 1hour/level.
WS has multiple uses per day.
WS cannot be dispelled.
WS is easier to perform in a grapple.
WS is better on the front lines because of a Druid's higher BAB and HP total.
WS is better because it scales as you gain levels.

Polymorph is better because it gives access to a wider variety of creatures.
Polymorph is better on the front lines because the creatures are more suited to combat.
Polymorph is better because you can cast it on someone else.
Polymorph is better because you can metamagic it.
Polymorph is better because once you have it, you have access to all of its powers, save the HD cap.


Higher Levels: _Wild Shape_ v _Shapechange_

WS is better because you get 12 levels of value out of it before you gain access to Shapechange.

Shapechange is better because it's a friggin 9th level bloody spell, and it's being compared it to a 5th level ability. Might as well compare Greater Rage with Trap Sense +1.


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## nittanytbone (Oct 6, 2005)

Wildshape has huge stealth potential -- turn into something that has a racial hide bonus and be equipped with Natural Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell, and you can destroy opponents before they even know who's fighting them by summoning hordes of hippogriffs and other nasty animal friends, throwing around some heat metals, and maybe an insect swarm or two.  Of course you'll want to entangle them first so they can't run.

Then later in the day, turn into a bird with a fly speed of 80 and move across the county.  Then you can wildshape again into something with a racial Spot bonus while you stand watch and finally end up using a second level spell to assume tree form for the evening while you sleep, only to unleash it all again the next day.

And that's at 8th level.


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## beepeearr (Oct 6, 2005)

Don't forget that shapechange has a pricey material component in the form of a 1,500 gp jade circlet.  That might prove to be kind of a pain to carry enough of those around to use it on a regular basis, and what happens when you run out in the middle of a dungeon.


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## Dimwhit (Oct 6, 2005)

beepeearr said:
			
		

> Don't forget that shapechange has a pricey material component in the form of a 1,500 gp jade circlet.  That might prove to be kind of a pain to carry enough of those around to use it on a regular basis, and what happens when you run out in the middle of a dungeon.



 I think it's just a focus, not a material component, so it can be reused over and over.


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## TheGogmagog (Oct 6, 2005)

beepeearr said:
			
		

> Don't forget that shapechange has a pricey material component in the form of a 1,500 gp jade circlet.  That might prove to be kind of a pain to carry enough of those around to use it on a regular basis, and what happens when you run out in the middle of a dungeon.



It's a focus, it's not consumed. [edit: too slow]

Many of the ablities wildshape is being toted for can be emulated with more or less effectiveness with spells by that appropriate level.  I'm not convinced that a druid is hands down more effective than a sor/wis or a cleric with acess to similar spells.

Elemental swarm (extended when you get an epic 10th level slot) is really friggin cool though.  Elemental clerics can get that ability also.


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## cmanos (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000 said:
			
		

> Shape change allows you to go as high as you want in hd up to 2x your cuurent level.. I believe the text in the PHB actually mentions 50HD as an example




Yes the PHB does state this, and the PHB Errata states  



> Second sentence of the spell is in error. Change "more than twice your caster level in HD" to "more than your caster level in HD".  Also change "50" to "20".




The errata are official and overrule the rulebooks.  The SRD take the errata into account.  So, no, you can't shapechange into a 34 HD Huge Fire Elemental at 17th Level Wiz.


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## andargor (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000, if I can offer some constructive comments...

Most posts I've seen so far echo my own impression: that you are attempting to compare two very distinct abilities instead of looking at the whole picture, and therefore feel that your choice of class is underpowered.

I feel that you have already made up your mind about the comparison between high-level wildshape and _shapechange_. Frankly, I find this futile, as mentioned above and in other posts.

If what's important to you is to have the power of _shapechange_, then I would respectfully suggest that you play a wizard or sorcerer. Otherwise, the druid has some very respectable abilities not available to other classes, and perhaps you should take those into consideration before feeling shortchanged.

Andargor


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## Felix (Oct 6, 2005)

andargor said:
			
		

> If what's important to you is to have the power of shapechange, then I would respectfully suggest that you play a wizard or sorcerer



He will get _Shapechange_, and at the same level that any wizard would get it, and a level earlier than any sorc would. It's on his spell list... I just don't see his complaint.


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## Sputnick (Oct 6, 2005)

*Drids rock*

I agree with Grotor.  druids get alot of really good abilities early, not to mention they have alot of rich role playing experiance being of an oposite polarity to a Wizard or sorcerer.  What I like most about drids is often the over looked abilty to swap spells for Summon Natures Ally.  If you use this with wild shape you can confuse the enemy to which animal you might be, until you cast spells.  If you combine that with the best buff spell in the game "animal growth"  You can quickly have an army of hudge animals rampaging the countryside within 3-5 rounds.  Which is the best destraction or use as cannon fodder.  

In conclusion Druids ROCK


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## Paul9000 (Oct 6, 2005)

Thank you all for your thoughts. I do see that the Druid and Wizard may not be entirely comparable, but do you think it would be worth changing to MOMF from Druid knowing that you lose spell levels including losing the Shapechange spell which would allow you to do all of the MOMF changes plus more? 

Also it just doesn't seem right to work your way up the ladder of shapechanging ability only to know that when you reach your pinnacle you are given a spell that basically mimics what you can do and more. Yes, I know they are not entirely equal, duration, dispelling, creature types - but I guess you can see where I am coming from. I hadn't played a druid in probably 10 years so I was kind of dissapointed that a single spell(s) (poly, sc) would cheapen the abilities of a druid and/or MOMF. I still like the druid and will continue to play one till he bites it. 

Paul


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## Corsair (Oct 6, 2005)

TheGogmagog said:
			
		

> Many of the ablities wildshape is being toted for can be emulated with more or less effectiveness with spells by that appropriate level.  I'm not convinced that a druid is hands down more effective than a sor/wis or a cleric with acess to similar spells.




Except of course for the fact that for everything your sorcerer/wizard/cleric is using a spell for, the druid isn't.  Now all of a sudden that druid has more spare spell slots lying around than your sorcerer/wizard/cleric.


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## Dimwhit (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000 said:
			
		

> Thank you all for your thoughts. I do see that the Druid and Wizard may not be entirely comparable, but do you think it would be worth changing to MOMF from Druid knowing that you lose spell levels including losing the Shapechange spell which would allow you to do all of the MOMF changes plus more?




If you change your MOMF levels, take a coule levels of War Shaper. Great PrC.


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## Paul9000 (Oct 6, 2005)

What book is the War Shaper in?


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## andargor (Oct 6, 2005)

Paul9000 said:
			
		

> What book is the War Shaper in?




Complete Warrior, I believe.

Andargor


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## Dimwhit (Oct 6, 2005)

Yeah, either Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer. Might actually be the second one. I know Nature's Warrior (also a good option) is in Warrior, and I don't think they're both in the same book.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 6, 2005)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Yeah, either Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer. Might actually be the second one. I know Nature's Warrior (also a good option) is in Warrior, and I don't think they're both in the same book.



They are in the same book, Andargor has it right.


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## Uder (Oct 6, 2005)

Druid are much better when you start them at age 53+ years old (for humans). Well, as long as your DM doesn't make you apply the age modifiers to your _wildshape_ as well...


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## Testament (Oct 7, 2005)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Yeah, either Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer. Might actually be the second one. I know Nature's Warrior (also a good option) is in Warrior, and I don't think they're both in the same book.




And for powergaming sweetness, take 2 levels of MOMF, then go into Nature's Warrior.  IIRC, your Improved Wild Shaping from the MOMF continues to advance, you get extra abilities (like Fast Healing 1), two caster levels back, a fighter's BAB, and finish up with Extraordinary Wild Shape to boot!


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## Dimwhit (Oct 7, 2005)

Testament said:
			
		

> And for powergaming sweetness, take 2 levels of MOMF, then go into Nature's Warrior.  IIRC, your Improved Wild Shaping from the MOMF continues to advance, you get extra abilities (like Fast Healing 1), two caster levels back, a fighter's BAB, and finish up with Extraordinary Wild Shape to boot!



 Druids are fun for powergaming. 

They are also great for strong role-playing, for those vehemently opposed to powergaming...


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## Moon-Lancer (Oct 7, 2005)

i like to mix it up abit.


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## griff_goodbeard (Oct 7, 2005)

Shapechange blows MoMF out of the water (which I think is kind of silly b/c MoMF is wholey dedicated to shapechanging but is trumped by one spell... but that is besides the point.)  The reason I played a MoMF was because the games I play in very rarely get to 17th level, so I'd never even get to Shapechange.  MoMF allowed me to play a shapechanger from level 6.


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## Merlion (Oct 7, 2005)

Druids are more than just shapeshifting. Wild Shape is merely one of their powers. They also have spells, a wide variety of other class abilities, and better basic stats (BAB, Saves, HD) than they probably really should have as a full caster class.

Many people think Wild Shape is a super-combat ability...and others feel as you aparently do that it should be, but I've never seen it that way. To me its another representation of their connection to Nature, and a way for them to take on the atributes of natural creatures. I'd be more inclined to use it for scouting and transport than combat.


Thats why what really annoys me is the 3.5 nerfing of the duration and the illogical rule that you can turn into a bat, but not get ecolocation.


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## Moon-Lancer (Oct 7, 2005)

In regards to bats and wildshape, i find exalted wildshape in book of exalted deeds lets you put a celestrial templit on the creature your wildshaping into. In addition, you get all ex and supernatural abilitys and this fixes the some of the problems that comes with the wonky rules of wildshape. 

I agree that spell casting for a druid is sometimes overlooked. Some of the spells in far conners of the wild make for a VERY awsome caster.

plinter bolt almost is in my opinion, better the scortching ray (if used by a druid). It has damage reduction but doesent have an element so protection from energy cannot  nutralize it. You have to hit with a ranged attack, but that itsent so bad if you wildshape into a high dex creature. I prefer the desmodu hunting bat. It crits on a 18 and does 3x damage. I would like to know what other level 2 spell at caster level 3 can do 48 points of damage (in a forest and if it crits)

with that said, i think the spell does balance as long as you dont follow sages ruleing on damage reduction and spells.


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## Merlion (Oct 7, 2005)

> In regards to bats and wildshape, i find exalted wildshape in book of exalted deeds lets you put a celestrial templit on the creature your wildshaping into. In addition, you get all ex and supernatural abilitys and this fixes the some of the problems that comes with the wonky rules of wildshape.





Well, trouble is anything that isnt core might be a problem if your dealing with one of those seemingly all to common core-only DMs. Plus, you shouldnt have to take a feat for it. Logically, if you take on the physical form of something, you should gain all of its physical abilities.


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## Pielorinho (Oct 7, 2005)

We use Rich Burlew's rules for Wildshaping and polymorph:  they are a bit more complicated at first, but they make a lot more sense and are much better balanced.  (I think the sorcerer got the rules for polymorphing bumped up a bit, so that instead of having lots of different spells to learn, it was a single spell that gained additional powers at additional levels, or something like that).

That said, Paul, it might be helpful to look on Shapechange as the druid's ultimate shifting power, the pinnacle of her abilities, the big guns she pulls out only in the most dire of situations.  When she doesn't need to expend her most valuable resource--a ninth-level slot--she uses the slightly less powerful, but much cheaper, wildshape ability.

Daniel


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## nameless (Oct 8, 2005)

The other problem with comparing wild shape to Shapechange is that shapechange is the best spell in the game, easily and by far the most powerful offensive and defensive spell at the same time. Comparing anything to shapechange makes that other thing look weak.

That said, wild shape is very useful and something that no other class can really emulate. The duration, and the ability to use natural spell and wild feats really make druids shine.

And spontaneous summon nature's ally isn't too shabby, either.


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## Moon-Lancer (Oct 8, 2005)

Merlion, i agree it kindof sucks that you have to be exalted and use a feat to get goodies for wildshape. currently im playing a charicter with that feat so i dont have to worry about it, but i do think polymorph wildshape is silly broken. I wish it would be written with more commen sense and with more game balance


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## Merlion (Oct 8, 2005)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> Merlion, i agree it kindof sucks that you have to be exalted and use a feat to get goodies for wildshape. currently im playing a charicter with that feat so i dont have to worry about it, but i do think polymorph wildshape is silly broken. I wish it would be written with more commen sense and with more game balance





The designers seem to have a lot of trouble with shapechanging. And in general, I understand it. But the Druids wildshape should be easy, as its limited to natural, mostly low powered forms.


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## Thanee (Oct 8, 2005)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Thats why what really annoys me is the 3.5 nerfing of the duration and the illogical rule that you can turn into a bat, but not get ecolocation.




Yep, I have house ruled _Polymorph_ (and similar) to grant natural perceptions of a creature (low-light, darkvision, bat's blindsense, and so on).

However, what's wrong with the duration of wildshape? It's 1h/level, that's not short at all.

Bye
Thanee


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## Merlion (Oct 8, 2005)

> However, what's wrong with the duration of wildshape? It's 1h/level, that's not short at all.





No its not...thats really a minor thing. If it was me, I wouldnt have changed it at all though. 


Mainly, its annoying if one wants, as basically a roleplaying quirk, to stay in some innocous totally not-powerful form (like a raven or a chipmunk or something) all the time. You cant really do that even with an hour per level duration.


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## Thanee (Oct 8, 2005)

The duration was the same in 3.0 (inherited from _Polymorph_).

I know what you mean, but unlimited duration would be a bit much, I think.

Bye
Thanee


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## Pielorinho (Oct 9, 2005)

Merlion said:
			
		

> The designers seem to have a lot of trouble with shapechanging. And in general, I understand it. But the Druids wildshape should be easy, as its limited to natural, mostly low powered forms.



I think the problems occur when you get into plant wildshaping:  the shambling mound/shocking hands combination gets ridiculously powerful very quickly.  (Or get a shocker lizard for extra fun).

Burlew's rules solve this through a somewhat clunky way:  they list every ability, telling which ones transfer and which ones don't.  However, the lists are pretty intuitive, so once you've looked them over, it's pretty easy to figure out whether an ability will work.

Daniel


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## Dimwhit (Oct 9, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> The duration was the same in 3.0 (inherited from _Polymorph_).
> 
> I know what you mean, but unlimited duration would be a bit much, I think.
> 
> ...



 Actually it wasn't. In 3.0, the official Wild Shape was, in the end, the version printed in Masters of the Wild. In that version, Wild Shape had no duration.

I was bummed they gave it a duration in 3.5, but it hasn't affected by Druid much.


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## Moon-Lancer (Oct 9, 2005)

wtc shot themselves in the foot when the had alter self. Then had polymorph based off alterself, then had wildshape based of polymorph then they threw shapechange into the mix. 

They shouldent have tried to save room in the players handbook by having the spells based off echother. It just made it a Huge mess in my opinion.


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