# [OOC] [Eberron] Beer n Pretzles Keep on the Shadowfell



## Graf (May 18, 2008)

_edit: closed now. Might take one or two more if people ask nicely (just cause there isn't much 4e around yet). There are a lot of fantastic 4e games around now and more starting up. I'm dis-inclined to try to take more folks on the basis of that.

If you're really having trouble getting into games I'd want to consider including people.
_
Accepted:

Walking Dad (Human Warlock)
stonegod (HE Cleric)
kinem (Dwarf Fighter)
EvKB ("Lizardman" Paladin)
Enekose (Elvin Ranger)

The game will be straight KotS with whatever web enhancements come out (supposedly they'll be correcting the pregens and providing some Eberron material to go with it next week).

Ground rules

WotC Published pregens; using the updated rules (you must update to the newest version, so if you play the halfling paladin from DnD Experience you're still using the corrected mark power)
 you can "swap out" powers/feats for any other WotC published powers/feats
Six - eight person groups (if people drop I can just feed them to the monsters and carry on)
No more than two of the same pregen character
You're expected to post every 24 hours or so on the weekdays; if you don't I may "go for you". (More likely if it's your action and I haven't heard from you, less likely if not)
If you post on time and in character you'll get +2 to whatever you're doing brownie points. _edit: Remembering to add +2 to everything was giving me a headache._
Each character must be eberronified; I.e. the should fit into a game being run in the WotC setting called Eberron (don't kill yourself with a complex back story if you don't feel like it)
Character applications must follow the template (more or less)
Combat posts should follow the template too, if you don't reflect updated info (like say the +2 to defenses you get the round after you use second wind) then you (probably) won't get the benefit.
My goal is to run good, fast, low-stress games. If you've a proven history of posting regularly in past games you're more likely to be accepted. (Life is life, but this exercise is supposed to be fun-roleplaying, disappearing players makith things a bit stressful for everyone). 
_edit: The posts do not have to be extremely detailed. Die rolling is optional. I just need to know what, basically, you're trying to do._
Everyone takes vacations/has busy periods. If you post/email/PM me *before hand* to let me know you're away then we'll work something out (at the very least I guarantee you won't suffer in game)
I expect you to work to avoid finding out about KotS; don't read spoilers, etc
Probably start in media(sp?) res at the first encounter.
added: Your characters are traveling together looking for *Douven ir'Staul* a Clifftop fixture who disappeared several months ago. He was a mentor an inveterate explorer of old ruins and often mentored young adventurers and other assorted neir-do-wells. So you should have some reason why you'd be out traveling with a bunch of strangers looking for him (his wife a fetching Khoravar named Lissa has been asking around trying to get people to find him).
Clifftop is a neighborhood in Sharn (Upper Dura) that predominantly caters to adventurers.

[sblock=Application]
Don't kill yourself with this. A couple of lines are fine. For the stat block best effort is fine.

*Character Name*:
*Current Nationality*:
*Nation of Birth*:
*Race*:
*Rank (if any) you held during the Last War*:
*Pregen you're using*:
*Any modifications*: (links please! so if you want use one of the other warlord powers (or whatever) please link to your source)

*Background*:
*Appearance*:
*Why would you go looking for Douven ir'Staul*?

[sblock=Stat block]
If you can stonegod's beauuutifulstat block. 
But anything is fine if I can read it.[/sblock]
*
Running any games (on Enworld or elsewhere)*:[/sblock]

All things being equal I'll take people who are DM/GM/ST/Keepering PbP games over people who aren't. I think that's fair really.

Some useful posts:
Action points in 4e
Temp rules for Stealth & Stuff #1 #2
Some simple healing rules to tide us over.
And some simple stuff about marking.


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## Walking Dad (May 18, 2008)

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4124969&postcount=2

*Tyron "Torn" Duskmeadow*
[SBLOCK=Background]*Current Nationality:* Breland
*Nation of Birth:* Aerenal
*Race:* Half-Elf
*Rank (if any) you held during the Last War:* -
*Pregen you're using:* Half-Elf Warlock
*Any modifications:*
Fiery Burst instead Ray of frost (Keep on the Shadofell wizard pregen)
I would like to take this feat instead of Action Surge:
[sblock=Feats]http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071126
Alertness
Tier: Heroic
Benefit: You don’t grant enemies combat advantage in surprise rounds.
You also gain a +2 feat bonus to Perception checks.[/sblock]
Why would you go looking for Douven ir'Staul?
Torn has a kind of "relationship" with his daughter.

*Running any games (on Enworld or elsewhere): *WD's Base of Operation
for games I'm in, click on PbP in my signature


Torn between two worlds. This tends to sum up the life of Tyron (called "Torn"). Born of a human father and an Aerenal mother. He was raised by his father to his mothers grief. Her people live mostly in a secluded place in Aerenal and her elders didn't allow for the half-breed child to enter. Feeling the anger of his younger pure human siblings he ran away from home and survived on the streets of a small city near his fathers castle. Here he befriended a scrawny goblin called Rat-Catcher. Learning street craft and the goblin tongue from him, the friendship was broken by an "accident" with a magic trap. Mourning his friends death he once more became a loner.
Having some successes as a pretty thief and charmed some rich men's daughters with his otherworldly charm he tried to reclaim his lost inheritance. Studying all texts he could find regarding the fey, (learning a bit magic in the process,) he found old texts about the connection of his mother's people to the "true fey".

At last, standing in an ancient stone circle, near the woods his mother calls home, he performs the ancient rituals to embrace his destiny.Tyron was able to make some pacts with the wild spirit that appeared. He made a pact with the Laughing Man.[sblock=Laughing Man]_When the Demons ruled the land, for lack of more interesting targets, the Laughing Man harried them with his violent jests; some say he is the first of the fey, the others the last, others that he was not fey at all but mearly plays at being one. When the Rainbow Serpents bound the darkness into the bones he skipped through their coils and off to the other worldly wilds. He helped the Gatekeepers during the last dark hours, though no story agrees on how or why. There are old places where you can go to call him still, and make promises that only he could fulfill. Blood is his wine of chioce, but he's peculiar about the vintage, only wine fermented in a evil vessel and spilled on the battle field pleases him._[/sblock]
If he killed an enemy in the name of his patrons, they allowed him to step briefly into the feywild.

And his patron summoned other fey to teach him:

Of one of the gloom fae, close relatives to the Shadar-Kai he received the ability to vanish as he moves fast and an eldritch blast of pure dark energy.

The prismatic being Duke of the Rainbow let him blind his foes with brilliant energys.

But the greatest gift was the ability to inflict a waking nightmare in his enemies and tore their perceptions, their mind torn from this world.[/sblock]
[SBLOCK=Appearance]He got the dark-brown hair of his father and his mother's emerald eyes. He prefers dark-green clothing accentuated with scarlet.

His general appearance is (for humans) exotic enough to be attractive but without the alieness of his mother's people.

Height: 5' 9"
Weight: 185 lb.[/sblock]
[SBLOCK=Personality]Tyron is friendly and charming to everybody, because he really wants to belong to someone, but has problems letting people close to him. After the death of Rat-Catcher he is afraid to loose another friend. He is pride of his abilities as a warlock, but is afraid of some of the truths and commands in his dreams. He likes cats, but no dogs. In a tavern he will order wine and no beer.[/sblock]
[sblock=Statblock]


```
Race: Half-Elf         Class: Warlock (Fey)
Str: 10 +0         Level: 1        XP: -
Con: 16 +3         BAB: +0         HP: 28
Dex: 11 +0         Grapple: +?     Dmg Red: -
Int: 15 +2         Speed: 6       Spell Res: N/A
Wis:  8 -1         Init: +0        Spell Save: N/A
Cha: 18 +4         ACP: ?          Alignment: Unaligned
```

AC: 15
FORT: 13
REF: 13
WILL: 15

Hit Points: 28
Bloodied: 14

Healing Surges/HP healed: 7
Healing Surges/day: 9

Second Wind:

Attacks: 
Dagger      +3 vs AC         1d4         Range 5/10
E.Blast      +4 vs Reflex     1d10+4             10

Race and Class Features:
Group Diplomacy
(grant allies withhin 10 squares a +1 racial bonus to Diplomacy skill checks)
Fey Pact
(Misty Step - when you reduce an enemy under your Warlock's Curse to 0 hit points or fewer, you can teleport 3 squares as a free action)
Prime Shot
(if non of your allies is nearer to your target than you are, gain a +1 to ranged attacks against the target)
Shadow Walk
(move 3+ squares away on your turn, gain concealment until the end of your next turn)
Warlock's Curse
(once per turn, place a curse on the enemy nearest you; you do +1d6 damage on enemy; lasts until end of the encounter or enemy is defeated)
Low-Light Vision

Skills:
Passive Insight  16
Passive Perception 9

Acrobatics +0
Athletics +0
Bluff +9
Insight +6
Perception -1
Stealth +0
Streetwise +9
Thievery +5

Languages: Common, Elven, and Goblin

Equipment:
Leather armor, 3 daggers, wand, backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, belt pouch, 2 sunrods, 10 days' trail rations, 50 ft. of hempen rope, waterskin

[sblock=Powers]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/sblock]
[/sblock]


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## EvolutionKB (May 18, 2008)

I'll like to give it a try.  Going for the dragonborn Paladin.  Will make official submission later(probably tomorrow).


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## Graf (May 19, 2008)

WD
I'm really not sure how the fay part of your background and all those different fay mesh into eberron. The feywild is almost certainly going to become the "fairy plane" that Eberron already has. And when you level up and get new powers I'm not sure that you'll necessarily be being taught them by someone new. (Like, if you get a new shadow power do a bunch of Shadar-kai come and teach you?)
It'd be awesome, I think, in a different sort of game, but this going to be beer and pretzles, and pretty much by the book. 

How does something like this sound for your patron:
_When the Demons ruled the land, for lack of more interesting targets,  the Laughing Man harried them with his violent jests; some say he is the first of the fey, the others the last, others that he was not fey at all but mearly plays at being one. When the Rainbow Serpents bound the darkness into the bones he skipped through their coils and off to the other worldly wilds. He helped the Gatekeepers during the last dark hours, though no story agrees on how or why. There are old places where you can go to call him still, and make promises that only he could fulfill. Blood is his wine of chioce, but he's peculiar about the vintage, only wine fermented in a  evil vessel and spilled on the battle field pleases him.[_/INDENT]
So he's one patron of unknown (possibly great) power and mysterious and ancient heritage. He can have summoned different fae to have taught you, and when you level you may have some sort of fx (like if you learn a shadow spell then the party member on watch could catch a glimpes of a shadowy figure speaking to you in the dawn light) but you have a single relationship with a single primal force.

Also, not exactly sure that Eladrin will be living in the feywild in Eberron. It seems more likely to me that they'll just be elves from Aerenal.
Of course, since non-elves aren't welcome in Aerenal it can fulfill basically the same role as the feywild does. It's someplace where your mother is that you couldn't go.

Sharn, goblins, seducing noble daughters, etc all work great.

EvKB, looking forward to it.​


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## Walking Dad (May 19, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> WD
> I'm really not sure how the fay part of your background and all those different fay mesh into eberron. The feywild is almost certainly going to become the "fairy plane" that Eberron already has. And when you level up and get new powers I'm not sure that you'll necessarily be being taught them by someone new. (Like, if you get a new shadow power do a bunch of Shadar-kai come and teach you?)
> It'd be awesome, I think, in a different sort of game, but this going to be beer and pretzles, and pretty much by the book.
> 
> ...





Sounds reasonable, I will edit the background. But Eladrin will retain thei signature fey-step ability? What about a piece of Aerenal that is connected with the feyrealm (don't remeber the Eberron name at the moment), like Sharn is connected to another (that allows the city structure).
The patron sounds cool enough. Can I give him some other strange nicknames?

Crunch: I would like to take the mini-fireball wizard at-will power as my bonus encounter instead of ray of frost, if this is fine by you.​


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## Graf (May 19, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Sounds reasonable, I will edit the background. But Eladrin will retain thei signature fey-step ability? What about a piece of Aerenal that is connected with the feyrealm (don't remeber the Eberron name at the moment), like Sharn is connected to another (that allows the city structure).
> The patron sounds cool enough. Can I give him some other strange nicknames?
> 
> Crunch: I would like to take the mini-fireball wizard at-will power as my bonus encounter instead of ray of frost, if this is fine by you.



 IIRC elves were split into two catagories to try to deal with the perfect-race thing they had going.
there were the immortal super intelligent uber-arcanists and the natural druidic lives-in-trees type. 

If you're going to say which is which in Eberron I think its fairly clear. Aerenal elves have tended to have feats focused around superior magical ability, Aerenal itself is almost a land removed already. 
The elf powers like "faster overland movement" scream "valenar warband" to me. It's not like all teleport spells require a connection to the feywild (which doesn't exist per se in Eberron anyway).
Will they tie it in with the The-something Manifest Zone? Maybe. It's a good idea. I don't know if I need to say where the mini-teleport comes from...

it's not my favorite situation but given that there's nothing on Eberron I think we need to just go with what seems like it would make sense.


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## kinem (May 20, 2008)

Where can we find these pregens?

I'm thinking of trying a fighter.


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## Graf (May 20, 2008)

@WD any swaps are fine, just indicate in your application and include links.

@kinem. The pregens are available all over. The 4e forum has whole threads about them. There are some websites up (dnd 4e.com or something?). Try google if you're having trouble.
I'll accept either the DnD Experience Pregens or the Keep on the Shadowfell pregens.


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## Graf (May 20, 2008)

I've seen the adventure, I actually have the materials to run the first few encounters already.
So we'll probably start pretty much just as soon after characters are selected.


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## kinem (May 20, 2008)

Character Name: Brock Ironforge
Current Nationality: Brelish
Nation of Birth: Mror Holds
Race: Dwarf
Rank (if any) you held during the Last War: Sargeant
Pregen you're using: D&D experience, Kathra Ironforge
Any modifications: male

Background: The Last War made Brock realize that long term prosperity depends on getting along with and knowing about other peoples besides just one's own clan.  He travelled to Sharn for a crash course in becoming worldly.

Appearance: Stout, muscular, bald but with a long red beard.

Why would you go looking for Douven ir'Staul?  He was a friend who was part of a party Brock once accompanied to explore Sharn's undercity.

Stat block: see pregen

Running any games (on Enworld or elsewhere): X4: Master of the Desert Nomads

BTW, I will be OOT Thurs 5/22 - Sun 5/25.


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## stonegod (May 20, 2008)

*Character Name*: Adain Urstandar
*Current Nationality*: Breland
*Nation of Birth*: Breland
*Race*: Khoravar
*Rank (if any) you held during the Last War*: N/A
*Pregen you're using*: Half-elf Cleric
*Any modifications*: Bolstering Strike as an encounter power (half-elf feature)

*Background*: Born of an affluent Sharn merchant family (shipping, a subsidiary of Lyandar), Adain wanted for nothing. His days were that of a wealthy scion living in the clouds; the boy rarely ventured to ground-bound Sharn (even its highest towers) for much of his youth. It was not until he accompanied Father to some dealing in Clifftop that he managed to see how the others lived. That is where he met ir'Staul, an associate of his Father's. Douven showed him some of more of "real life", and it was indirectly through him that he found his faith in the Flame. Forsaking his wealth, Adain became a Templar of the Flame.
*Appearance*: Somewhat good looking Khoravar who shaves his head as part of his devotion to the Flame.
*Why would you go looking for Douven ir'Staul*? ir'Staul was a mentor of Adain, and indirectly got him to 'see the light' of the Flame (though it wasn't exactly Douven's wishes).

[sblock=Stat block]*Adain Urstandar Level 1 Half-elf Cleric*
*Initiative* +0; *Senses* Perception +3; low-light vision
*HP* 26; *Bloodied* 13; *Healing Surge* 6; *Surges Per Day* 9
*AC* 16; *Fort* 12, *Ref* 10, *Will* 15
*Speed* 5
*Action Points* 1
-----------------------------------------------------------------
* Mace* (standard; at-will) ✦ *Weapon*
+3 vs AC; 1d8+1 damage
*   Crossbow* (standard; at-will) ✦ *Weapon*
+2 vs AC; 1d8 damage
*  Lance of Faith* (standard; at-will) ✦ *Divine, Implement, Radiant*
Ranged 5; one creature; +3 vs. Reflex; 1d8+3 radiant damage and one ally Adain can see gains a +2 power bonus to their next attack roll against the target.
*  Sacred Flame* (standard; at-will) ✦ *Divine, Implement, Radiant*
Ranged 5; one creature; +3 vs. Reflex; 1d6+3 radiant damage, and one ally Adain chooses either gains temporary +3 hp or can make a saving throw.
*  Healing Strike* (standard; encounter) ✦ *Divine, Healing, Radiant, Weapon*
+3 vs. AC; 2d8+1 radiant damage, and the target is marked until the end of Adain's next turn. In addition, Adain or one ally within 5 squares of him can spend a healing surge.
*  Bolstering Strike* (standard; encounter) ✦ *Divine, Weapon*
+5 vs. AC; 1d8+3 damage, and Adain gains 3 temporary hit points.
*  Beacon of Hope* (standard; daily) ✦ *Divine, Healing, Implement*
Close burst 3; +3 vs. Will vs. each enemy in the burst; Hit: Target is weakened until the end of its next turn; Effect: Adain and all allies in the burst region regain 5 hit points, and his healing powers restore +5 hit points until the end of the encounter.
*  Healing Word* (minor; twice per encounter, once per round) ✦ *Divine, Healing*
Close burst 5; Either Adain or one ally can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 hit points.
*Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune* (free; encounter [only one Channel divinity power can be used per encounter) ✦ *Divine*
Adain gainst a +1 bonus to his next attack roll or saving throw before the end of his next turn.
*  Channel Divinity: Turn Undead* (standard; encounter [only one Channel divinity power can be used per encounter) ✦ *Divine, Implement, Radiant*
Close burst 2; +3 vs. Will (each undead in burst); Hit: 1d10+3 radiant damage, and Adain can push the target 6 squares. Target is immobilized until the end of his next turn. Miss: Half damage, and the target is not pushed or immobilized. 
*  Channel Divinity: Armor of Silver Flame* (immediate interrupt; encounter [only one Channel divinity power can be used per encounter) ✦ *Divine*
Ranged 5; Trigger: Enemy scores a critical hit on Adain or an ally; Turns a critical hit into a normal hit. 
*Healer's Lore*
Any healing granted with a cleric power that has the Healing keyword adds +3 to the restored hit points.
*Group Diplomacy*
Allies within 10 squares gain a +1 racial bonus to Diplomacy checks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
*Alignment* Lawful Good; *Languages* Common, Draconic, Elven
*Str* 13 (+1) *Dex* 11 (+0) *Con* 14 (+2)
*Int* 10 (+0) *Wis* 16 (+3) *Cha* 16 (+3)
*Arcana* +5*, *Diplomacy* +5, *Heal* +8*, *History* +5*, *Insight* +5, *Religion* +5*
* Trained Skill
*Gear* Chain mail, mace, crossbow with 20 bolts, adventurer's kits, holy symbol of the Silver Flame, 10gp.[/sblock]
*
Running any games (on Enworld or elsewhere)*: stonegod's Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. I'm also a Living Eberron Judge.


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## Graf (May 20, 2008)

Kinem, sg, you're good to go. We should start in a day or so.

WD I need to you fill out some of the fields in the application form (the one about Douven ir'Staul at least). Then you're in.


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## Walking Dad (May 20, 2008)

I have edited my post. If you need any extra information, just ask, please.

[sblock=Statblock]


```
Race: Half-Elf         Class: Warlock (Fey)
Str: 10 +0         Level: 1        XP: -
Con: 16 +3         BAB: +0         HP: 136
Dex: 11 +0         Grapple: +?     Dmg Red: -
Int: 15 +2         Speed: 6       Spell Res: N/A
Wis:  8 -1         Init: +0        Spell Save: N/A
Cha: 18 +4         ACP: ?          Alignment: Unaligned

AC: 15
FORT: 13
REF: 13
WILL: 15

Hit Points: 28
Bloodied: 14

Healing Surges/HP healed: 7
Healing Surges/day: 9

Second Wind:

Attacks: 
Dagger      +3 vs AC         1d4         Range 5/10
E.Blast      +4 vs Reflex     1d10+4             10

Race and Class Features:


Skills:
Passive Insight  16
Passive Perception 9

Acrobatics +0
Athletics +0
Bluff +9
Insight +6
Perception -1
Stealth +0
Streetwise +9
Thievery +5

Languages: Common, Elven, and Goblin

Equipment:
 
[/sblock]
```


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## Graf (May 21, 2008)

@sg that's one pretty statblock

@WD, Take any of the feats you mentioned (thanks for the link saves a lot of time). Just let me know/reflect it on your statblock.

We're starting as soon as I can find a decent copy of the map for the first encounter on the net. I'm going to fudge the start up situation slightly to simplify things.


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## stonegod (May 21, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> @sg that's one pretty statblock.



Still working on it. Not pretty enough yet.


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## Graf (May 21, 2008)

Game's started. The monsters would, of course win initiative.

@sg 
I think you also have Perception +3, and a passive perception and insight of 13 and 15 respectively. (not that I can't figure that out...)

@kinem
I'm using an old copy of Kathra I had lying around for your stats.
There is much debate about the differences between combat superiority for the two fighter pregens. I'm of the opinion that Kathra/Brock represent one kind of fighter and the KotS pregen represents another.
(i.e. that the fighter hasn't been errata'd)
Since Kathra/Brocks combat superiority is vastly superior to the KotS' fighters I think that's fair for now, but if it *is* errata you'll eventually lose that ability.

@WD
If you take the perception feat then you wouldn't be giving out Combat Advantage the first round, and you'd be going on a 15... but since nobody hit you and your initiative moving from 13 to 15 doesn't matter I'm not worrying about it.

Re: Tokens
I'm using the fiery dragon ones. (Yay FD!)
If you want me to use something else for your character just let me know.

Re: Maps
The only map I could find for this game was pulled out of vassal. Please ignore things like "victory areas".

Re: Rules Mistakes
I may have made mistakes, I'm hardly the expert. Please let me know if you see anything. (Cover is already starting to confuse me... I'm using the unscientific "does that creature/object seem to be in the way" system).

Re:Immediate Actions and interrupts/reactions
Some actions trigger immediate actions. They come in two types interrupts and reactions.

*Immediate Interrupts* pre-empt the action that trigger it, if someone shifts near Brock he'll get to interrupt their movement (i.e. pre-empt it).
*Immediate Reactions* go after the action but _before the rest of the triggering individuals turn_.​You'll probably see what I mean soon.

Movement, btw, triggers attacks of opportunity. Unless it's shifting. Then it doesn't. Unless they're near Brock, then he gets to hit them even if they're shifting.
(unless that's been errata'd but we're playing like it hasn't because it hasn't been made clear yet and that's a big change).


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## EvolutionKB (May 21, 2008)

Character Name: Zaram
Current Nationality:  Brelish(Sharn)
Nation of Birth:  Argonssen
Race:  Dragonborn
Rank (if any) you held during the Last War:  (No rank held)
Pregen you're using:  Dragonborn Paldin

Background:  Dragonborn, a product of the innate magic of dragons are natives to Argonssen.  Zaram is a paladin devoted to the Dragon Above.  When a group of adventurers with unsavory intentions came to his homeland, Zaram was sent to dispatch them.  He performed well enough that his draconic masters sent him to the mainland to investigate the prophecy.  Zaram was feared on mainland Khorvaire, more both his monsterous appearance and ability to fight.  ir'Staul was one of few people in Sharn that saw beyond Zaram's monsterous appearance.  With the disappearance of one of his few friends, Zaram is not hesitant to join with others with similar intentions.  

Appearance:  Zaram covers his scaled appearance in heavy plate armor.  A longsword is sheathed on his hip, and a heavy shield is held on his forearm.

Statblock:  See pregen for now:  Pally page 1 Pally page 2


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## stonegod (May 21, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> @sg
> I think you also have Perception +3, and a passive perception and insight of 13 and 15 respectively. (not that I can't figure that out...)



Perception is listed near the top (second line), though not the passives.


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## Graf (May 21, 2008)

@sg
Cool. 

@EvKB
I'm really not sure how Dragonborn are going to fit into the setting. If it's OK for now how do you feel about the following:
You're a Blackscaled lizardman from Q'barra. The Blackscales are renowned throughout Khorvaire for their savagery and power; rarely seen they dwell deep within the swamps in the eastern continent. When you originally came to Sharn a happenstance encounter between you, ir'Staul and a crazed cultist on a bridge turned into a fast friendship. With his assistance you started off a short career as a mercenary. You were protecting his older daughter during an excavation in the Talenta Plains when he disappeared. You knew Torn, who had a relationship with his younger daughter, vaguely.

(what, if anything, you thought about Torn is up to you and WD to work out. You probably know he's a bit of a rake.)

[sblock=For EvKB]You aren't really a Blackscaled lizard man; of course. You're dragonborn from Argonnessen who was sent by the Chamber, a group of important wyrms who monitor the lesser races, to Khorvaire. 
You were specifically instructed to make contact with ir'Staul and prevent his assassination by the cultist. You found him warm and generous, and quickly were able to establish a relationship. You understand that your masters are, or were, interested in him, but don't know why.
They were fairly specific that you're suppose to pretend you're a Blackscale, which is honestly, fairly absurd. You've never even been to Q'barra. However your "handler" was very specific.

Your handler is, you are sure, a wyrm of some age and a master shapechanger. He appears most frequently to you as a outrageously dressed gnome who calls himself Rowdy (though he showed up once in your cheap motel room as a very attractive female dragonborn in what was probably the most awkward five minutes of your entire life). He seems to love attention, gambling, playing games and acting mysterious and inscrutable. 
Other than giving your your first instructions to protect ir'Staul he's given you no clear instructions, preferring, when he speaks at all about your mission (as opposed to having you accompany him as a bodyguard around town), to hint portentously and make ominous and contradictory statements.
You're sometimes doubt whether the "lizard man" charade is really necessary but Rowdy asserts that it is "of the utmost importance!" and "essential to the successful unfolding of several minor, but key, branches of the prophesy".

The problem with working for a dragon, this dragon in particular, is that even if they're telling a little joke the punchline may come a hundred years after you're dead.

Your recent mission to Talenta was an attempt to develop a stronger relationship with ir'Staul, possibly demonstrate your worth and become his semi-permanent bodyguard. However upon your return you discovered he'd gone missing.

"Rowdy" with great seriousness has asserted that "you simply must find out what happened to him!".
[/sblock]

Let me know what you think!

And I'll put you in the fight now too.


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## Graf (May 21, 2008)

PS. Zaram got a 14 on initiative! So he goes next (unless Torn takes the Perceive (or whatever it's called) feat... then he's second to next.


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## Walking Dad (May 21, 2008)

Yes, I think I will take the Alertness feat.


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## Graf (May 21, 2008)

Great you go first (among the PCs)!
Will post to reflect your movement.
(Goes off to play with map tools).

Zaram's go.


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## EvolutionKB (May 21, 2008)

I like the background idea you came up with.  That is the general feeling I was going for(you read my mind).  Sorry I couldn't give a more detailed idea first.  Didn't have time to post until almost 1am and I had to get and work at 6...so sleepy...I'll give you a general idea of what I want to do in my combat post.  You might have to work out the details, I probably won't be able to post until after 10pm ET


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## Walking Dad (May 21, 2008)

Tyron or Torn is fine. Torn is the nickname.

Can I get the face of this pic as my map icon?

[sblock=image]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/sblock]?


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## Erekose13 (May 21, 2008)

Character Name: Iridian Melideth
Current Nationality: Breland
Nation of Birth: Arenal
Race: Eladrin
Rank (if any) you held during the Last War: n/a
Pregen you're using: Eladrin Ranger (Riardon from DDXP)
Any modifications: none

Background: Iridian was born into a noble line on Arenal, the Melideth line.  Many of his ancestors had gone on to join the Undying Court on Arenal. Iridian had a deep respect for the undying and had planned to spend his entire life serving them in the forests of his homeland.  During the Last War, word reached Arenal of the victories that the Taer Valaestas and their new land of Valenar.  Tales of the Last War and the departure of so many other elves prompted Iridian to seek an audience with the Court. His question to them was whether the elven people were destined to rule Khorvaire. He thought that if it was so, a noble like him would be a valuable asset in the foreign land and he would be able to spread the will of the Undying Court abroad.  The answer that came back to him was positive, though obsequeous.  He pondered the Court's answer for a long time before deciding on his course. He would travel to the war torn lands to lend the aid of the elves and establish himself as a noble there.  His arrival in Sharn however was significantly less auspicious when his ship wrecked off the coast of Breland and he had to be rescued by passing fishermen.  Arriving in Sharn now penny-less and without the gifts of nobility, he became one of the thousands of refugees heading to the city. It was there that he met Douven ir'Staul and became friends with the man.  In his time Douven took pity on the lost elf and helped him find his feet in Sharn.  After a time they lost touch, but when Iridian went looking for him again he was astonished to find the man had vanished. 

Appearance: A typical noble elf, Iridian has thin almost deathlike features. (more to come)

Why would you go looking for Douven ir'Staul? see background.

[sblock=Stat Block]TBA[/sblock]

Running any games (on Enworld or elsewhere): at the moment only one, E2: The Secret of Gemhold [LEW], my signiture holds the link to all the other games I've run and played in here.


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## Graf (May 21, 2008)

EvKb
good; was worried the "new background" went too far. Glad that's not the case. 
that level of detail is just fine for a post; the only thing that really matters is that I have an idea of what your character is doing.  

WDwill do

Enekose
looks great! Welcome to the game! Iridan was scouting off the map but will return to the group in round 2.


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## Graf (May 22, 2008)

For the record the 1st combat post went up at 11:00 am my time. It's 8:42 now. So any more prospective players have a little bit over two hours to post applications and join the game. After that you'll catch up with the group at the next scene.


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## Graf (May 22, 2008)

*Interrupts can't interrupt interrupts*

My current understanding is that an interrupt can't be interrupted by another interrupt.

So normally when someone shifts, Brock can interrupt them and hit them. And he has another power (combat superiority) that says that if he's interrupting someone's shift with an attack, and he hits he stops the movement.

But if someone's shift is an interrupt then he can't interrupt them.

This matters because Kobold Dragonshield's have an ability (interrupt reaction) that allows them to shift whenever someone moves adjacent to them.
In this case Zaram took a Move action -> then the kobold reacts and shifts away -> (no interrupt from Brock) -> then Zaram completes his action (but he can't attack that kobold if it's shifted away from him).
Brock didn't get to interrupt and make an AoO.

Compare with Brocks Passing Attack
Attack first Kobold -> since he hits he can move but it's still part of the same standard action neither of the Kobold's "interrupts" have triggered yet (because it's a reaction it goes after) -> Brock makes second attack -> now Kobolds get to move (because Brock's action, in this case a standard action that involved moving is complete).

If I'm wrong we'll run the next combat differently, but that's my current understanding.


Also see this post. Key points *only 1 interrupt a round* and *Brock can only AoO/shift block a marked enemy*.


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## EvolutionKB (May 22, 2008)

Just wanted to add that I added my rolls to my previous post.  I think I did this before you did your post, but if you want to keep things the way they are, that is fine.  My breath weapon targets clockwise, closest to furthest, starting with the creature directly in front of me.  If I have a standard action remaining, I'll trade down to make it a minor action to mark the kobold that shifted away from me.


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## Graf (May 22, 2008)

Urg...
_edit: can we use my rolls? I totally missed your update until now.

The challenge is a good idea. Completely forgotten about that. The Paladin really has a lot of options...
The Kobold won't try to shift past Brock to get to you. So it'll take damage. Let me see if you also forced a miss on it's attack..._ They both missed Brock already so it doesn't effect his damage total.


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## Graf (May 22, 2008)

Your mark bloodied the other KD. 
(With four players I was worried this was going to be a "tough fight" but Tyron and Iridian haven't even attacked yet and it's already turning into a bit of a romp)

PS Please post your characters, with stat blocks to the Character Thread.

If you're looking for a good template for the stats you can use sg's.


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## Graf (May 22, 2008)

PS Paladin can only mark if you're adjacent or "tried to attack" someone this round.
I think that breathing fire on someone counts as an "attack".


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## EvolutionKB (May 22, 2008)

Sweet, I can see with all the interrupts and such, this would be a pain to DM in PbP.  Everything is turning out well...so far...


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## Graf (May 22, 2008)

OK. Brock can only do the AoO attack/stop shift on _marked_ foes. The thread is kinda hideous, the key post is #24.

It's backed up by the Mouse (who I tend to trust).

Since he actually only did it once that round we'll just say that he'd marked DS#2.
Also you can *only interrupttake an immediate action once a round* (this was in KotS pg 4, I just missed it).
So Brock will probably be a tad bit awesome next round.
Still not sure about interrupting an interrupt thing.

Edit: been using the wrong terminology (immediate action vs interrupt which is a kind of immediate action, will edit posts later when I get a chance).


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## Erekose13 (May 22, 2008)

Posted IC. Had a couple of questions:
1. can I fire into melee? As far as I can tell as long as my target doesnt have cover from one of my allies there is no penalty.

2. Do you want us to make the rolls with Invisible Castle?

Will work on posting my character sheet into the sg format in the RG.


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## Graf (May 22, 2008)

1. No penalty for shooting into melee (thank god, such a painful rule).
I think you get cover from anything that's in the way. There isn't much about cover in the rules each map has an extensive discussion of the effects of each square but it's not very specific about application (i.e. nothing about drawing lines from this corner of that square or anything).
Cover is -2; "Superior Cover" (total concealment?) is -5.

2. Yes. I prefer that you make rolls. It's just faster and easier for everyone to know whether you succeeded or not. PLUS it can affect the rest of your action too... maybe you want to use Nimble Attack to move forward since the kobold is dead or whatever.

Having said that if you post without a roll then I'll do it for you.

If I see a post without rolls i'll assume that there aren't going to be any; so you'll probably get stuck with whatever I roll.

There's no onus on you to roll if you can't or whatever. I know some places may block certain web sites/people get busy/etc.


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## EvolutionKB (May 22, 2008)

One thing, allies don't provide cover for ranged attacks...goes to look up rule for next round...


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## Graf (May 22, 2008)

That would make it even easier. (And the slinger much more likely to hit).
I must have missed that too.

Have class in a few hours, probably back in the morning.


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## Graf (May 22, 2008)

Last thing, please include your backstory etc (the rest of your application) in a spoiler block (or at least link to the post with it) in the Rogues Guide thread.

(That way I don't have to go hunting for it -- search seems to be down...)


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## kinem (May 22, 2008)

If Brock's turn comes up while I'm OOT, he'll tend to use Cleave.


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## Graf (May 23, 2008)

*Action Points*

Action Points in 4e are fairly different from 3.5 APs (either Eberron or whatever). They're given out daily, you use it or you loose it.

At the end of every extended (8hrs) of rest you lose all your APs from the prior day and gain one new one.
Every time you hit a milestone you get another.

A *milestone *occurs after every two encounters you have in one day.

So in the first encounter Tyron spent an action point, an hour later when he'sattacked by an owlbear he won't have any more to use. But after that encounter (the second of the day) you've passed a milestone.
If you're then attacked by something else (the 3rd encounter of the day) he'd have another to spend.
If Adain has been traveling with him and fighting all day but spent no action points he'd have 2 (the one he got first thing in the morning after his extended rest +1 more for hitting the milestone).

edit: _As sg schooled me, you can only spend one action point an encounter._
Basically, they're a very tactical resource now.


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## stonegod (May 23, 2008)

Actually, if I understand correctly, an extended refresh resets your AP to 1. You also cannot spend more than 1 an encounter.


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## Graf (May 23, 2008)

So the fights over. Spending an action point (and a daily) for Tyron was sort of risky. 

I really don't intend to do that ever again. But that, along with some good rolls, finished the fight off.

Feel free to rp if you like. I'll move you along to the next scene in a bit.

PS Are 4e characters butch? Yes. Yes they are.


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## Graf (May 23, 2008)

stonegod said:
			
		

> Actually, if I understand correctly, an extended refresh resets your AP to 1. You also cannot spend more than 1 an encounter.



 Yeah, instead of saying "refresh" or "reset" though the book says "player characters lose all unspent action points, but start fresh with 1 action point." 

Means the same thing but I figured it was best to paraphrase closer to the book.


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## Graf (May 23, 2008)

I haven't found the 1 ap per encounter thing yet...
Do you know what page link?
(seems kinda mean though... if someone has painstakingly saved up two or three action points (and gone through 4~6 encounters) to get to a boss fight... why shouldn't they be able to use them?)

Not that I'm right, it just seems like an "unfun" rule (and something else to keep track of).


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## stonegod (May 23, 2008)

Quick Start, pg 5: "Once per encounter, you can spend an action point."


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## Graf (May 23, 2008)

Thaaank you!
I'm blind...  ;/


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## EvolutionKB (May 23, 2008)

That experience(475) is not for each of us is it?  Seems like it should be divided by 5.


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## Graf (May 23, 2008)

Yes it should be. I'm planning on just keeping a group total for now. When you get to 5000 you'll level.



			
				EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> [sblock=ooc]How far are we from the nearest town?  Are the shoddy weapons/armor worth carrying?  I'm guessing probably not.[/sblock]




As it happens, you're less than half a day to town.

This has been discussed on a couple of threads, but there's no mention of selling items like that anywhere. My thought is that it's listed for completeness's sake. A halfling who wanted a bunch of little javelins or a spare shield could pick it up (not that we really have rules for that...)


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## Walking Dad (May 23, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> So the fights over. Spending an action point (and a daily) for Tyron was sort of risky.
> 
> I really don't intend to do that ever again. But that, along with some good rolls, finished the fight off.
> 
> ...



Thank you for saving Aramil's butt, Graf. Next time, I promise, I will make the decicsion by myself. (Hope it was the last encounter for today... should have used the encounter one, but with my luch on IC    )


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## Graf (May 23, 2008)

Afterward I realized it was overkill. You dropped him without even considering the damage from the other curse. 

No there won't be anymore encounters tonight -- unless you all do something very unexpected.  (normally I wouldn't say that but its BnP)
I can't do maps over the weekend so I thought it would be best to just finish things off and get to town. 

Again though that's the last time I plan on unilaterally spending aps/going for people (at least unless we wind up with someone having disappearing player syndrome)


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## Graf (May 23, 2008)

also there *are* rules for line of sight/line of effect/cover/concealment/bull rush/grab etc. Scattered about in sidebars.
If nobody puts them up online I'll sumerize when I have a chance.


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## Graf (May 26, 2008)

Sorry for the delay, son's sick, staying at home with him. Thought I might have time to dig out the old battlemaps and take some digital pics but that:s looking unlikely.


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## Graf (May 27, 2008)

Next encounter is up. These kobolds are much more disciplined. 
Iridian is in very bad way.

Last time I completely missed the fact that the kobold dragonshields can "mark" people.
This is a standard power that means you have -2 to attack anyone but the person who marked you (similar to the powers of the pally and fighter, but without the extra bennies that paladins and fighters get when they mark someone)._edit: The little "red dot" on the right hand corner of the picture means your marked.
Hopefully Maptools will get an update at some point that gives more options so I can more effectively denote marked, bloodied and so forth._

Will post LoS/Line of Effect, cover and concealment rules in a bit.Work stuff's come up, probably a week or so before I can post this stuff. Will work to keep the game flowing though.


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## Walking Dad (May 27, 2008)

Did Tyron move during the surprise/ambush turn. Does his shadowwalk ability only works with combat movement?


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## Graf (May 27, 2008)

I would assume that only movement during fights conceals you. Otherwise you'd be constantly concealed when walking, no? That would be profoundly weird. Like, you go across the room to get a beer and turn semi-invisible? (or blurry?)
At the very least people around you would constantly be freaking out. Even in Eberron, which has a fairly large tolerance for weird, that'd be pretty strange.

Looking at the pregens from DDXP and KotS I'm thinking that they pulled the classes and races that are more complex (Warlocks, Eladrin) precisely because answering these sorts of questions takes page count they didn't have.

If it helps, you can think of it as the Laughing Man having interest only in helping you when you can help him fulfill his goals (the blood of the evil, spilled in combat).

Actually, speaking of this, can you and kinem put up your sheets in the rogues gallery? It's easier to look up things when they're all in one place.
(PLUS, you know, I'm using some sheets that I downloaded months ago... I don't even know if we have the same stats down or not...)


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## Walking Dad (May 27, 2008)

Fine. But I think moving through enemy territory concealed (as a Striker) not weirder, than a ranger or rogue (the other strikers) using the stealth skill to do nearly the same.

I didn't see the gallery before.


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## Erekose13 (May 27, 2008)

Evo, thanks for the lay on hands, Iridian is best served getting the heck out of there before the kobolds act again. He'll use an action point to use his second wind. Tried to stick within 5 of Adain too and position myself where they wouldnt be able to follow on the rocks. Shifting is fun cause he doesnt take any movement penalties or attacks of opportunity.

Question, his fox's cunning immediate reaction wouldn't have worked in the surprise round right? otherwise he might've been able to get out of there earlier.


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## Graf (May 27, 2008)

I did consider it but when surprised you can only take free actions (I.e. No immediate actions).
 Obviously I could have choosen to do things differently but the module is fairly specific.
Healing word should help people who are down (if it comes to that don't have the map right now).


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## Graf (May 28, 2008)

We're at intitative 22 (KS). I'm waiting to see if Erekose wants to do foxes cunning before the rest of kobold's go.
The most recent post includes a bit of discussion about how the boulders work. Bear in mind that it normally takes 4 squares of movement to get up there, but they're only 5 feet high.

I think that the only place he can shift to (using foxes cunning) is going to be jumping off the boulders.

After Erekose makes his decision we should be good to go for the rest of the round.


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## Graf (May 28, 2008)

*Combat stats in posts*

I know some other threads do this, but if possible I'd like a mini stat block. 

Honestly just because it will keep me from forgetting things (like the fact that Iridian having spent a second wind raises his defenses this round -- which I did forget, though it didn't actually matter).
Her's a sample from a post I made in an old (and aborted) 4e game.

It's kind of irritating to set-up, but once you've done it once you can just copy and paste. And, less confusion -> less irritation later.



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> *Skarra Ironshield - hp 21+8/33 - AC 19+2 - Fort 16+2 - Refl 13+2 - Will 12+2*
> 
> Skarra grinds her teeth when struck suppressing a yell.
> _Bones o' stone, dwarves don't groan._
> ...




_edit: you don't -have- to do it my way, of course. This is just a sample._


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## Graf (May 28, 2008)

PS Wanted to thank everyone for putting up their characters in the RG! Saves me a lot of time.

And: because it will come up in this fight and many others: Here's a very detailed discussion of shifty by the man who wrote the book.


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## Erekose13 (May 28, 2008)

I like the mini stat sheet and more organized combat orders post as these characters have a lot more going on each round than I'm used to with 3.5e.


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## Graf (May 28, 2008)

Zaram and Brock can (should?) still keep their current attacks vs the KS since they've rolled it, I suppose.
(I didn't actually look at what you were doing before I did the kobold actions, for some reason I assumed you were attacking the Dragonshields...)

So I said "rethink your action" in the IC post but you don't really need to (the KS hasn't gone anywhere).

No point in using Passing Strike though, since you can't really get to anywhere where you'd be able to Passing Strike past the KS to somebody else.


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## Walking Dad (May 28, 2008)

Will add stats to my post later.

Regarding the "Riardon" shift.

The race is eladrin, not elf. An Elf gains the ignore terrain bonus, eladrin not.


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## Graf (May 28, 2008)

ok. So he's still stuck where he is then. 

I'll finish off the round when I get back in front of the right computer (~12 hours) from now. If you want to update/modify your actions you have until then. Otherwise have a good day!


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## Erekose13 (May 28, 2008)

So Iridian can't shift while on the rocks?


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## Graf (May 28, 2008)

he can shift off the rocks
but not onto the rocks (or any other square that is difficult terrain)
wd is right i'd swaped the two races in my head
the original no post was right


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## Graf (May 29, 2008)

Ding dong the KS is dead.
I know I said that I'd only accept posts prior to mine, but EvKB's was so close that it seemed cruel not to allow it.

Just so that we're clear: Iridian can shift 1 square as a move action. [Map] However the Dragonshield's can (and will) follow him that one square with Dragonshield tactics.
This is an immediate action (reaction) that happens after his move action but before Iridian can move again. 

The KDs (and all characters) can only take one immediate action each round. So if he spends a standard he can shift again to move one more square (X8 or wherever) but....
1. he's only got a minor left, and nothing to do with it
2. he's only one square away from the KDs

He can also just take an AoO from each KD and run away (move or double move or move/run (14 squares) or run/run(16 squares -- KD AoOs are at +2)).
Mathematically speaking, a hit is likely.

I encourage kibbitzing... if anyone can think of something better then please suggest it.
_edit: He spent his action point last round. So that's not an option. _


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## Walking Dad (May 29, 2008)

Sorry for the confusion.

Next time I say scorching burst ones, Eldritch blast twice and roll on IC for eldritch blast, please use eldritch blast


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## Walking Dad (May 29, 2008)

Graf in the ICC thread said:
			
		

> OOC: warlocks can curse new target each round. Whether or not you're marked depends on whether or no you're hit again by the kobold dragonshield.
> We're at init 23. The mark disappears at 12.1 when the kobold ds marked you the prior round.
> Conceal and hide (using stealth) aren't the same. You need concealment to try to hide. You can get conceal by, for example, entering the foliage (difficult terrain). I think using stealth is a standard but will need to look it up.



I can curse a (new, nearest) target and the old curse stays in effect!?

I hope I will not be hit again    But you are right, I should have waited for the kobolds' actions.

I can get conceal by moving 3 squares. If I teleport (minor action) (move by 3 squares = concealment) can I use my move action to hide.


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## Graf (May 29, 2008)

yeah every round a new target can be cursed. Not that it matters now (only one warlock) but you can't curse stack.  a new curse superceeds the 1st. 

It's convenient for me to have people posting actions so I can keep the game going. Of course the person we're really waiting on is erekose. 

I know you get concealment by moving. I was telling you your other options. 
I remember that using stealth was a standard action. But I could be wrong which is why I said I'd check. 
I am sure there was a penalty for using stealth on any turn when you moved more than two squares. So if you're serious about hiding then moving one square into the foliage and hiding will absolutely be better (better=more likely to suceed) than moving three squares and trying to make a check with a penalty.


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## kinem (May 29, 2008)

I pretty much have to wait to see what the kobolds do before I post, because Brock's encounter power requires two targets near each other.


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## Graf (May 30, 2008)

I appreciate that. I'd hope to  hear from Erekose today (my today -- which I realize is when most folks are sleeping), otherwise we'll wind up dealing with the round over the weekend; since this weekend is hella busy for me that means that I probably won't be able to make a proper update until next Monday and the Round 3 probably wouldnt' start until Tuesday or so.
He posted! Yay!

Of course it's an online game and a new system so maybe I should just be more willing to go slowly. (But KotS.... not a short adventure.)
If it's 30 encounters and each one is five rounds (assuming a round a day, and a few days in between encounters for rp/decision making).
Roughly 210 days or 42 weeks (given 5 days a week of actual posting).

Not that I mind. I love online games. But I kinda thought I'd be able to give people more of a taste of 4e by "quickly running them through KotS". May take longer than I thought.


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## Graf (May 30, 2008)

Here's as usual. I was wrong.
I need to stop posting before I've double-checked things.

[sblock=Stealth (Dexterity)]

Stealth: Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily.

Opposed Check: Stealth vs. Perception (see the table for modifiers to your check). If there are multiple observers, your Stealth check is opposed by each observer’s Perception check.
Cover or Concealment: Unless a creature is distracted, you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check. You have to maintain cover or concealment to remain unnoticed. If a creature has unblocked line of sight to you (that is, you lack any cover or concealment), the creature automatically sees you (no Perception check required).
Superior Cover or Total Concealment: If you have superior cover or total concealment, a creature can’t see you and can’t be sure of your exact location. If its
Perception check beats your Stealth check, though, it knows you are present, knows the direction to your location, and has a vague idea of the distance between the two of you. If its Perception check beats your Stealth check by 10 or more, the creature
can pinpoint your location until the end of your next turn, even if you move.
Distracted Creature: If a creature is distracted, you can attempt to hide from that creature even when you don’t have cover or concealment. In combat, creatures are assumed to be paying attention in all directions. Outside combat, a creature might be
paying attention to something in a certain direction, allowing you to hide behind the creature’s back. You make a Stealth check as normal to avoid the creature’s notice, since it might hear you.
 Success: You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. If you later attack or shout, you’re no longer hidden.
Failure: You can’t try again unless observers become distracted or you manage to obtain cover or concealment.
Combat Advantage: You have combat advantage against a target that isn’t aware of you. 
Light Source: Observers automatically see you if you’re carrying a light source.

Penalties
If you Speak –5
If you Move more than 2 squares –5
If you run –10
If you're more than 10 squares away +2 (I think)

I'm assuming that running and moving +2 aren't cumulative[/sblock]

So I guess if you attack and then move 3 you can try to make a Stealth check rolled (at -5 for having moved more than 2 squares) vs each kobold's perception to see if you've managed to lose them.
They'll see you again when you attack again.

This actually makes stealth really powerful.
I was thinking that, in Round 1, Iridian could have teleported to a forested square and used an action point to heal and a standard to disappear. But he could have actually just teleported, spent his second wind (and made his stealth check) and then decided what he wanted to do.

And Iridian's stealth check is +9, not shabby at all.

(Should the DM roll stealth checks and keep them secret? 
Probably not in fights.... if the kobold can see you it'd probably be pretty obvious normally what with the pointing and the screaming)


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## Graf (May 30, 2008)

If I understand it correctly, you get concealment (other than from powers) from lighting conditions or being in certain squares.

[sblock=Concealment]OBSCURED SQUARES

Lightly Obscured: Squares of dim light, foliage, fog, smoke, heavy falling snow, or rain are lightly obscured.
Heavily Obscured: Squares of heavy fog, heavy smoke, or heavy  foliage are heavily obscured.
Totally Obscured: Squares of darkness are totally obscured.

Effects that cause concealment obscure vision without
preventing attacks.
CONCEALMENT
Concealment (–2 Penalty to Attack Rolls): The target is in a lightly obscured square or in a heavily obscured square but adjacent to you.
Total Concealment (–5 Penalty to Attack Rolls): You can’t see the target. The target is invisible, in a totally obscured square, or in a heavily obscured square and not adjacent to you.
Melee Attacks and Ranged Attacks Only: Attack penalties from concealment apply only to the targets of melee or ranged attacks.
[/sblock]

If you make a stealth check then I guess the creature can't see you
[sblock=Targeting what you can't see]If you’re fighting a creature you can’t see—when a creature is invisible, you’re blinded, or you’re fighting in darkness you can’t see through—you have to target a square rather than the creature. 

You also have to figure out which square to attack. Here’s how it works.

Invisible Creature Uses Stealth: At the _end of a concealed creature’s turn_, it makes a *Stealth check* opposed by your *passive Perception* check. If you beat it, you know there’s a creature present that you can’t see, and you know the direction to its location. If you beat it by 10 or more, you know exactly what square the creature ended its turn in. The concealed creature also makes a Stealth check if it
takes an immediate action or an opportunity action. 
Make a Perception Check: On your turn, you can make an active Perception check as a minor action, comparing the result to the concealed creature’s last Stealth check. If you win, you know the direction to the creature’s location, or its exact location if you beat it by 10 or more.
Pick a Square and Attack: Choose a square to attack, using whatever information you’ve gleaned so far about the target’s location. Roll the attack normally (taking the –5 penalty for attacking a creature that has total concealment). If you pick the wrong square, your attack automatically misses, but only the DM knows whether you guessed the wrong square or your attack just missed.

Close or Area Attacks: You can make a close attack or an area attack that includes the square you think (or know) the concealed creature is in. Your attack roll doesn’t take a penalty from the target’s concealment.
[/sblock]

So the system would seem to be
Tyron's turn, get concealment, make stealth check (one roll) vs. each Kobold (actively rolled). If you succeed you've "disappeared". They don't know where you are, though they do know where you were when you were last not concealed.
--At this point you get combat advantage against them.

At the -end- of Tyron's turn you make stealth check vs their passive perception. If you make -that- check they can't see you till your next turn (and then only if you attack or bring attention to yourself). If you miss by up to 9 then they know you're there and the direction but not which square (Still have combat advantage).
-If you miss by 10 then they see you.

They can take minor actions during their turn to search for you. If they win by 10 they can see you, otherwise they just know you're "there" and which direction.

If they ever have LOS, or you otherwise lose concealment then you have to do it all over again. But if Tyron doesn't attack, keeps moving three or more squares a round and makes the stealth checks each round vs their passives (and their minors if they start searching)? Then he's still "effectively invisible".


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## Graf (May 30, 2008)

The next part of the round is up.
Iridian is dropped (but probably not by what you'd think); Tyron is in bad shape. Brock demonstrates why the kobolds haven't been trying to attack anything with a high AC).

I have comments on each person's initiative line. Map coming.


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## Erekose13 (May 30, 2008)

Guess I'm destined for save vs. death. Did you want me to roll when it comes up next round?

All these pieces are really going to take some getting used to.


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## Graf (May 30, 2008)

Unfortunately... 
on the plus side you're almost certain not to die.
(the last kobold fight ended quickly this one doesn't have much more of an xp budget) 

They had good rolls. It was a prepared ambush. You don't really know how the game works (nobody does at this stage). 
After everyone who attacked you hit you in the surprise round you were in a tough spot.

Please do roll your saves.


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## Walking Dad (May 30, 2008)

Guys (and gals?), I think we have to need to improve our tactics for surviving 4e. Seperated strikers that got mobbed, nearly non-moving defenders...

Any ideas how we could change our tactics to survive this encounter and, if we live, the next?


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## Walking Dad (May 30, 2008)

Is the map correct? Tyron is on q9, but he should have moved to q10.

Bit of a strange mechanic, marked by someone who cannot perceive the target... Perhaps there are some extra rules about it in the full-rules.


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## Graf (May 30, 2008)

Sorry. Yeah. Will fix his position.
Marks are... some what nonsensical. They work well for paladins and sorta good for fighters, but the general solider marks are pretty light on fluff.
They make a lot lot of sense in game terms though (i.e. give you a reason why you'd want to attack soldier/defender types). 
Personally I think you kinda have to just hit the "I believe" button and move on. It's just a -2.

The mark will disappear on it's next action, which happens before yours. So, unless he hits you again (rather unlikely) you'll be unmarked when you go.

I'll leave you guys to talk tactics, but, this is beer and pretzels, feel free to make whatever kind of OOC plans, discussions, etc you like.


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## Graf (May 30, 2008)

Fixed map up. Zoomed it out a bit so people have a better idea about what's around them.

Gonna go offline for my crazy weekend (crazy-studying, not crazy-partying unfortunately). See you all on Monday.


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## Graf (Jun 2, 2008)

[sblock=Generalized type tak'n care of folks with the proper skill]
First Aid
Make a Heal check to administer first aid.
First Aid: Standard action.

Use Second Wind: Make a DC 10 Heal check to allow an adjacent character to use his or her second wind (page 291) without the character having to spend an action. The character doesn’t gain the defense bonuses normally granted by second wind.
Stabilize the Dying: Make a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize an adjacent dying character. If you succeed, the character can stop making death saving throws
until he or she takes damage. The character’s current hit point total doesn’t change as a result of being stabilized.
Grant a Saving Throw: Make a DC 15 Heal check. If you succeed, an adjacent ally can immediately make a saving throw, or the ally gets a +2 bonus to a saving throw at the end of his or her next turn.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Healing o' those persons who are due to be relieved of the affliction of life in short order (i.e. the Dying)]
When you are dying, any healing restores you to at least 1 hit point. If someone has stabilized you using the Heal skill but you receive no healing, you regain hit points after an extended rest.
HEALING A DYING CHARACTER

Regain Hit Points: When you are dying and receive healing, you go to 0 hit points  and then regain hit points from the healing effect. If the healing effect requires you to spend a healing surge but you have none left, you are restored to 1 hit point.
Become Conscious: As soon as you have a current hit point total that’s higher than 0, you become conscious and are no longer dying. (You are still prone until you take an action to stand up.)

[/sblock]


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## Graf (Jun 2, 2008)

You have to MARK each round. Generally speaking, because you're starting off, (and cause I know it's a pain in the ***) I'm not troubling you to remember it/state it.
It's usually pretty obvious.

The two classes actually mark in a radically different way

Paladin's us a *minor action* to issue a Divine Challenge (which is a mark)
It's kinda complex; basically the simple version is that you use a minor to mark someone within 5 squares and as long as you stay "engaged" with them you can keep the mark.
[sblock=Pally challenge]Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target (see below). A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target. Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn. 
On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To *engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it*. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn.
You can use divine challenge once per turn.
Special: Even though this ability is called a challenge, it doesn’t rely on the intelligence or language ability of the target. It’s a magical compulsion that affects the creature’s behavior, regardless of the creature’s nature. You can’t place a divine challenge on a creature that is already affected by your or another character’s divine challenge.[/sblock]

The fighter and most monsters can marks anyone they attack (hit or miss). It's not an action.

I think I've been having the fighter and monsters hit to mark, but that was apparently wrong in the case of the fighter (still not sure about the monster).


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## stonegod (Jun 2, 2008)

Adain's round 3 action is here: Healing word on the ranger, then a (badly missed) Lance of Faith on the Dragonshield.


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## Graf (Jun 2, 2008)

Thank you! I think I'd forgotten you'd put that there. The dice are not with you.

PS how do you feel about the cleric, I've heard opinions that the pregen is not very well put together (i.e. misses a lot).
When you get back to town you're welcome to redo your stats if you like.

 Once WD has given Tyron's next action we're good to go .


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## Graf (Jun 2, 2008)

If I understand it correctly Iridan is awake and rejoins the battle at initiative count 10 (right after the effect that brought him back). I'll post the next round I think once I get up and to the right computer. 

I'm thinking that "tricking the kobold into flanking itself" will be Zaram's bluff (+3?) vs the kobold's perception (+2). If someone wants to roll that it'd be fine, or you can wait for me. 
Of course knowing the outcome might affect the actions of people lome B Brock. 
If Zaram wins it'll wind up between the two of them. Otherwise it moves directly "west".


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## Graf (Jun 3, 2008)

KD2 having been flanked when Zaram struck means that he's down.

In defense of the "nigh-indestructable kobold" who has absorbed two eyebite criticals, and one scotching blast and is still up...
He's got resist fire (so the scortching blast didn't do as much damage) and the temporary hitpoints cushioned the last critical.

I guess in a "normal" game I'd just say "you blow him away" and move on. Narratively it's vastly more interesting than "you almost kill him with your awesome attack", but I guess I felt that this game ought to run by the book?

Anyway, it'd stick in my craw if I were a player but I figure that, since this is everyone's first 4e outing (?) by-the-book was the order of the day.


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## Graf (Jun 3, 2008)

So.... how about them dice... 

Just for clarity, if Tyron had made his stealth roll in round 3, and the KWpr had failed the perception 20 (passive stealth +10) check to notice him on its turn then it wouldn't have included him the dragon breath effect.
But Tyron missed the first roll so...

Also area & close attacks aren't affected by concealment (which is why there was no penalty on the attack roll vs Tyron).


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## Erekose13 (Jun 3, 2008)

Got a lucky to hit on my daily roll, but damage sucked horribly.


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## Graf (Jun 3, 2008)

Yeah. Still, it's nothing to sneeze at.
What's really wrong is, if I understand it properly, if you roll one crit on the dice, they're both crits.

I have to admit, I vastly prefer things when it's PCs -> monsters -> PCs -> monsters.
[_edit: by which I mean the game seems to run a lot faster when all the PCs go then all the monsters go, but it may just be me._]


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## Walking Dad (Jun 3, 2008)

Short question: Is'nt the kobolds attack a CLOSE blast, like the dragonborns?
I mean, could the blast area be that far away from the kobold? Or had the area be adjacent to the craetor?

(I don't know what the kobold can do. I'm just working with dragonborn infos    )

I don't want you to change back or something, only to get it clear for later on.


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## Graf (Jun 3, 2008)

oh yeah.  If you read his action you'll see he shifted. 
The map is really a curdousy to help people see the broad arc of the fight. 

You won't be able to understand every detail without looking at the breakdown in the spoiler block. If you're confused about a creatures action you should take a second to look at the list of actions it took (i.e. that cteatures initiative line).
I spend a bit of effort listing each action it took how it took it and in what order. 

If you don't look at that (i.e. Just glance at the map) you will *really* struggle to figure out what's happened.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 3, 2008)

I'm soory about this. I read your complete block every time. Somehow this detail has eluded my sight.


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## Erekose13 (Jun 3, 2008)

With the double crit thing, it makes it even nicer to have two chances at the roll with the ranger's daily power. Too bad 20 is the only way to get a crit


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 3, 2008)

Until you get higher level and take improved critical.


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## Graf (Jun 4, 2008)

They do have improved crit? Fascinating.
I have no idea about anything beyond heroic tier, and even that's iffy.

Brocks bloodied & maintained his mark on KD1.


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## Graf (Jun 4, 2008)

Not sure about dropping two marks actually. I -thought- that was a no-no, but the rules don't seem to be specific.
Unlike the palladin mark you don't do it as a minor action and then just have to maintain it with conditions (and the pally mark specifically forbids "marking two creatures" just like hunters quarry and the warlocks curse).

Hm. Any ideas? (sg? anybody?)


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## stonegod (Jun 4, 2008)

I don't have the books, so I'm unsure. As far as I can tell, a fighter can have as many marks up as he can hit targets.


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## Graf (Jun 4, 2008)

PS I agree with the assessment that "the attack must include the dragonshield" does NOT mean "you can only attack the dragonshield".
So passing on the KD and then having a secondary target is fine. As would an area attack that hits the KD and other stuff.


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## Graf (Jun 4, 2008)

That was my read too. We'll go with that then. It's not like you can usually make too many attacks.

I'm thinking that cleave's secondary damage doesn't count.... since it's not an attack...


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## Erekose13 (Jun 4, 2008)

Players Handbook says the fighter's mark only lasts until the end of the fighter's next turn. Each creature can only have one mark. And you mark the creature you attack even if you miss.


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## Graf (Jun 4, 2008)

OOC Thanks. Missed that. Sorry. You're at P16.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 4, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Not sure about dropping two marks actually. I -thought- that was a no-no, but the rules don't seem to be specific.
> Unlike the palladin mark you don't do it as a minor action and then just have to maintain it with conditions (and the pally mark specifically forbids "marking two creatures" just like hunters quarry and the warlocks curse).
> 
> Hm. Any ideas? (sg? anybody?)





			
				Erekose13 said:
			
		

> Players Handbook says the fighter's mark only lasts until the end of the fighter's next turn. Each creature can only have one mark. And you mark the creature you attack even if you miss.



More specifics on the Warlock's Curse? Is it really only one marked target a time?


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## Graf (Jun 4, 2008)

sorry no warlocks is different. 
A given creature is only affected by one curse at a time but a warlock can curse everything on the board if he spends the actions.


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## Graf (Jun 5, 2008)

Next round. Technically Tyron goes -before- KD3 now, because it delayed to cover the priest (which means it's going on an 11).
But I just had it "go" to keep the game moving. -If- Tyron does something that would prevent it's action then cool, if not, it does what it did (shift and attack Brock).

PS I was rolling the stealth stuff somewhat wrong. I'll do it properly this round.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 5, 2008)

I got my 4e player's handbook   

Looks like I had to curse the dragonshield, because he is nearer.
I will change the old post.


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## Graf (Jun 5, 2008)

Congrats! if you disappear for 48 hours we'll understand.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 6, 2008)

I know, it is no feat, but would you allow me to retrain Scorching Burst next level?


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## stonegod (Jun 6, 2008)

I've got my books now, so I'll look at tweaking Adain this weekend (out of combat, of course).


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## Graf (Jun 7, 2008)

I thought I'd mentioned this earlier but you can change anything you like once your back in town (I'd prefer if you kept your race and class...)

I -don't- really see the need to make you guys go back to town this time. Just have your v2 characters published before the next fight get started. 

The wyrmpriest (ac 17 iirc) and his buddy are still alive it looks like.

Since you've got your dailies (save Iridian anyway) I'm assuming you're pushing on after this...?


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## stonegod (Jun 7, 2008)

Pushing on is my plan...

... Adain is still going to be a half-elf cleric of the Silver Flame. Just better.

Oh, and FYI, Wizards posted some Eberron conversions of the module and some Warforged/Shifter pregens.


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## Graf (Jun 7, 2008)

Graf stops everything to go to wotc's site


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## stonegod (Jun 7, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Graf stops everything to go to wotc's site



Here: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080606b
and Here: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dufe/20080606a


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## Walking Dad (Jun 7, 2008)

I just read a bit from the other 4e thread on the PbP board.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=228254

Perhaps we shall discuss our tactics after the fight, too.


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## Erekose13 (Jun 8, 2008)

Too bad no race changes, shifters look cool as rangers though I love the Eladrin Fey Step so I'm good. Powers and feats though I'll be keen on trying out a few of them as we go on.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 8, 2008)

I've got my books finally as well, though a day later than planned.  What CAN brown do for you?  Not deliver to the FLGS until you've left and gone to a wedding instead of the day before so they would be there when the FLGS opened.  Hope I haven't missed much.


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## stonegod (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, after looking at my books, I think the only changes I'd make to Adain are:
- Swap his 14 (unmodified) Wis with his 16 Cha (giving him 18 Wis and 14 Cha with subsequent changes to turn undead)
- Swap out Healing Strike for Divine Glow. The former is bad for a low Str cleric, and the latter is good for a non-frontline cleric (which Adain seems to be).

Thoughts?


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## Graf (Jun 8, 2008)

Adain was not the most awesomely well designed pregen. Increasing his chance to hit and refocusing his powers is a good idea. 

The changes to kots are pretty radical I may make some changes but not others. Do people have a preference for pure kots vs pure eberron kots?


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## stonegod (Jun 8, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> The changes to kots are pretty radical I may make some changes but not others. Do people have a preference for pure kots vs pure eberron kots?



*shrugs* In a less B'n'P game, I'd worry about such stuff.  Whatever seems cooler/easier.


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## stonegod (Jun 9, 2008)

After picking up my PH, I spent time converting a bunch of my PbP characters to learn the system. Have a look-see if you wish.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 9, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Adain was not the most awesomely well designed pregen. Increasing his chance to hit and refocusing his powers is a good idea.
> 
> The changes to kots are pretty radical I may make some changes but not others. Do people have a preference for pure kots vs pure eberron kots?



I don't know the story, monters or background of either one. Do as you see fit.


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

Cool. I'll keep things more or less as is and just add in the stronger eberron ideas. Anybody want to kill that last kobolds for me? Or are you just letting the punk get away?


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## Walking Dad (Jun 9, 2008)

I will try to kill it   

But I won't use my daily for this!  

Edit: Shot it down with another crit


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## Graf (Jun 9, 2008)

Nice shoot'n Tex!

Next scene up in 12 hours or so. If you'd like to modify your character now's the time.


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## Erekose13 (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm not making many changes, just want to try out a couple different powers for this build. For the most part the stats, feats, and powers all work for the archer build really well. The elf would've been a better choice than the eladrin, but no worries.

Trade Carefull Attack for Twin Strike
Trade Fox's Cunning for Evasive Strike

I need to fix these having read through the PHB.  They appear to be typos on the character sheets.
Correct stats: Longsword +5_[LS is +3 for proficiency]_, 1d8+3_[without a shield, he'll always use it 2-handed]_
Add Feats to sheet: defensive mobility & lethal hunter _[missing from my character sheet version]_


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## Graf (Jun 10, 2008)

I encourage trying out different powers. That's what this game is for.
Those changes sound fine, if I get a chance later I'll double check your math/corrections. Otherwise I'll just trust you.

Since people are still moding their characters and healing I'll give it a bit longer before I put up the next scene.


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## stonegod (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm doing what I stated:
- Swap his 14 (unmodified) Wis with his 16 Cha (giving him 18 Wis and 14 Cha with subsequent changes to turn undead)
- Swap out Healing Strike for Divine Glow. The former is bad for a low Str cleric, and the latter is good for a non-frontline cleric (which Adain seems to be).


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## Graf (Jun 10, 2008)

Got it.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 10, 2008)

kinem in the IC thread said:
			
		

> Brock will rest as well.
> 
> [ooc: spend 2 healing surges, hp 33/33, surges 10/13]
> 
> "Hey, wow! It turns out that those vicious cuts I thought I took really missed me!  I was just a bit winded from dodging them.  I don't have a scratch on me!" Brock informs the others.



Yes, healing surge might be unrealistic sometimes.
Just think it more "Die Hard". Blood is all over you, but you fight on without penality


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## stonegod (Jun 10, 2008)

HP != only physical damage. Part of it is getting over the wounds, some of it is psychological, some of it is *magic*.


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## Graf (Jun 13, 2008)

sorry for the delay, Baby didn't sleep last night, so neither did I... kinda fried.
post coming in 2 hours or so.


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## Graf (Jun 13, 2008)

Sorry for being flaky. It's up now.


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## stonegod (Jun 13, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> OOC how did Adain get Insight +5? (it's either +4 or +9 right?)



Actually:
- Diplomacy should be +4 (+2 Cha +2 Half-elf)
- Insight should be +6 (+4 Wis + 2 Half-elf)
Fixed.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 14, 2008)

Yeah, I understand too.  Zaram's "real" sheet came with all kinds of errors too.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 14, 2008)

Just a tactical thought:

We should use attack bonusses like the one from lance of faith on our strikers. They, and not the defenders are considered our best damage dealers. Boosting an area (breath) weapon is very good, too.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 14, 2008)

Not really that good:  multiple attack rolls for area effects.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 14, 2008)

So it will give the bonus only to the first?

Not that it really matters. Or only power of this kind (lance of faith) is against only one target, too.


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## Graf (Jun 15, 2008)

stonegod said:
			
		

> Actually:
> - Diplomacy should be +4 (+2 Cha +2 Half-elf)
> - Insight should be +6 (+4 Wis + 2 Half-elf)
> Fixed.



 Danke


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## Walking Dad (Jun 15, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Danke



Near to Torn, the diplomacy bonus should be +5 (+2 Cha +2 Half-elf +1 droup diplomacy (race feature second Half-Elf)

Edit: Only affects non-half-elves.


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## EvolutionKB (Jun 20, 2008)

Graf,

Just to let you know...Dragonborn and Eladrin are featured in one of the latest eberron novels.  The Dragon Forge.  Great book and great second book in the trilogy.  Pick it up if you haven't already.


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## Graf (Jun 21, 2008)

Thanks for the tip! with school and the baby I haven't had a chance to read a novel in almost two years... (managed to make a weekend for Norell and Strange (can't even remember the proper title...) 

I'll probably just wind up digging out the online summary to find out there official origins in Eb


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## Voda Vosa (Jun 22, 2008)

Nice game you are running here Graf, I took a look around, and will keep track of this one, in case you need an alter.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 22, 2008)

Sorry, I missread the human perservance feat. I will change the sheet and the last mini-statblock.


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## Graf (Jun 24, 2008)

VV, So far I've been blessed with focused and attentive players but if something happens I'll definitely keep you in mind.

In other news? Putting "swim check" in the notes line of IC seems to guarantee a result of at least 10. Not endurance though....


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## Graf (Jun 25, 2008)

Soooo....
I did make a couple of attack rolls for Iridian, just to set up the situation (twin shot seemed like the best choice for attack powers but I don't want to keep picking), I'll give Ere a bit longer to come by and take his shots.

I'll put out another post in a bit for the rest of the group who're down in the dig area since it looks like nobody else is at the lakeside.


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## Graf (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm about to go offline for the weekend. We have house guests as well.

I'll be around and try to respond to ooc stuff; I think you guys can actually do a lot without me right now (or with minimal input anyway).

So let me know how you want to proceed.


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## Graf (Jun 30, 2008)

Sooooo anybody gonna go get that chest?


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## stonegod (Jun 30, 2008)

Graf said:


> Sooooo anybody gonna go get that chest?



Anyone Swim... er, Athleticize?


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## Graf (Jun 30, 2008)

It's a placid lake, you can take 10. Despite his olympic level level performance fan boy had an athletics of +1...


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## Graf (Jun 30, 2008)

Speaking of....

Changelings, much more annoything than I thought. I think I see why redclaw didn't want me playing one. He's got a bluff of +10 and he gets another +20 to "pretend to be someone" from change shape.
So his passive/average roll? 40.
(this is/was a WotC published creature no modifications).

That's why nobody was making insight rolls. You can't hit a 40. Period.
I hadn't realized that until you got down into the pit. I'd expected somebody to make a roll and be like "you see he's missing a mole" or something.

But with no possibility of making the check?
I figured I had to play it straight. No putting "douven" in quotes or anything.

I'm thinking that it's the same power that dopplegangers have, and it's supposed to reflect their telepathy. But changelings= ~doppleganger!

Thoughts? Would anyone else have done it differently?


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## stonegod (Jun 30, 2008)

Changelings, even 3.x ones, are nigh on impossible to spot at low levels.


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## Walking Dad (Jul 2, 2008)

About resting and attacking:

How much surges has anyone left?
Anyone already used up his daily? (Tyron has)

(I had already used an AP. I get nothing from taking no rest)


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## EvolutionKB (Jul 2, 2008)

Surges remaining: 9/11
Dailies: lay on hands(used), paladins judgement(not used)

since we now all have gained an ap...I have one, the same we would have if we took a rest.


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## Erekose13 (Jul 2, 2008)

Sorry was offline for the long weekend (in Canada )  I'll post in the IC thread in  a minute and if no one goes after the chest, Iridian does that, then goes back out for 'Douven'.  As for playing the changeling differently, no I think it worked well. I was hesitant to attack him until one of the others did first as I thought he might be forced to play the roll.

Re sleep, Iridian is pretty low from the earlier fight, but fine from this one. Daily is used though.


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## Graf (Jul 3, 2008)

Ere... 
Zaram grabbed the chest and you've spent the day carrying the body back to town and arranged for it to be cared for at the temple.

Didn't know it was a long weekend. Hope you had fun!


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## Erekose13 (Jul 3, 2008)

Yup caught that in the IC thread, no worries. I'm caught up now.  Thanks, yeah it was Canada day on the 1st so we went to the cabin. It was really really hot, but great to get away and enjoy some time off.


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## stonegod (Jul 12, 2008)

Err.. am I reading the same thread as everyone else? Where did the connection between fake Duoven and the kobolds appear?


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## Walking Dad (Jul 12, 2008)

stonegod said:


> Err.. am I reading the same thread as everyone else? Where did the connection between fake Duoven and the kobolds appear?



I didn't see it appear, either.


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## kinem (Jul 12, 2008)

Brock could just be jumping to conclusions, but he's had time to mull it over, and he doesn't think the attacks were a coincidence.  His suspicions are based on the map found in the kobold's pocket (post #125).


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## Graf (Jul 14, 2008)

So... leave Iridian behind as a rear guard and search?

How much searching are we talking about? 
It was around dusk when you approached, I'm thinking that its now night time, more or less.


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## stonegod (Jul 14, 2008)

its the dragonborn's plan, so he should give details. Of course, now we'll stick out (since we need light and I believe 4E 'bolds still don't).

Is the entrance built into a hillside? Might want to circle the hill to have a look. We'll have to use some light source (unless its moonlight enough for low light vision folks).


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## Graf (Jul 14, 2008)

There are at least two visible entrances, on either side of the waterfall (which is apparently quite loud).

The entrances are into a shear cliff that extends for some distance (i.e. as far as you can see given the terrain).


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## stonegod (Jul 17, 2008)

Graf: My RL group is finally getting into 4E, and they've decided to start w/ KotS. I'll be a player, so I still haven't read it, but we'll likely outpace the PbP game quickly. Don't know how you want to handle that (boot me out, keep me, etc, etc.)


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## Graf (Jul 17, 2008)

Glad to hear they're giving it a try!

It's BnP. I'm happy to play until we have a conflict.


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## Graf (Jul 27, 2008)

I will be on vacation from July 29th to Aug 7th. Traveling with little or no internet connecttion (I think). I plan on posting at least once more to this thread before I go. Sorry for the short lead time.


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## Graf (Jul 28, 2008)

I'd wanted to finish off this round, but it didn't happen today. Sorry. 

See you all (hopefully) when I get back.


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## Graf (Aug 15, 2008)

I will not be posting an update until monday. My middle name is "not keeping up his end of the bargain".


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## Walking Dad (Aug 18, 2008)

@stonegod: Thank you, stonegod, you are my hero!

But: Tyron still takes 9 damage, the power only negates the crit 

But your healing from Beacon of Hope heals all of them 

Thanks again!

@Graf: Question:
My encounter warlord power gives another character an attack. Should I roll it in my post, or should the player of the character do it?

PS: Tyron is still listed as a human at the beginning of this thread, but he is a half-elf.


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## stonegod (Aug 18, 2008)

To partially answer Evo: We just finished this encounter on Saturday. No spoilers...


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## stonegod (Aug 18, 2008)

Another note: Here is my (just leveled) RL KoTS dragonborn paladin for the curious.


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## Graf (Aug 19, 2008)

Walking Dad said:


> @stonegod: Thank you, stonegod, you are my hero!
> 
> But: Tyron still takes 9 damage, the power only negates the crit
> 
> ...



Forgot about the crit negagation (despite you having put it in your character post from time immimorial... but WD is right that it's a 1 point difference... maybe you should save it?)

WD,

I prefer that you roll it, same rational as the KK1 (i.e. waiting is a pain the butt... and it uses your intelligence.)


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## stonegod (Aug 19, 2008)

Graf said:


> Forgot about the crit negagation (despite you having put it in your character post from time immimorial... but WD is right that it's a 1 point difference... maybe you should save it?)



Its a 5hp difference (9 vs. the maximized 14). If I don't use it, he's still down those 5hp. If WD's fine w/ those 5, I can save it...


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## Graf (Aug 19, 2008)

stupid EnWorld hanging constantly...



Walking Dad said:


> @stonegod: Thank you, stonegod, you are my hero!
> 
> But: Tyron still takes 9 damage, the power only negates the crit
> 
> ...



Forgot about the crit negation (despite you having put it in your character post from time immemorial...)

... but...

per the compendium
[sblock=Armor]
*Immediate Interrupt**
Ranged* 5
*Trigger*: An enemy scores a critical hit on you or an ally
*Effect*: Turn a critical hit against you or an ally within range into a normal hit.[/sblock]

So it becomes a 9 damage instead of a 10. It's a 1 point difference... maybe you should save it?)

WD,

I prefer that you roll it, same rational as the KK1 (i.e. waiting is a pain the butt... and it uses your intelligence.)


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## stonegod (Aug 19, 2008)

Graf said:


> So it becomes a 9 damage instead of a 10. It's a 1 point difference... maybe you should save it?)



As I mentioned above, it appears to be a 14->9, not a 10->9 (The roll). It is really it 10->9, I'll save it.







Graf said:


> ooc: stonegod you can't shift diagonally through enemy squares...



You can shift diagonally near enemies as far as I can tell: Nothing about diagonal movement (pg 283: "You can move diagonally past most creatures") or shifting (pg 292). You can't move/shift around corners (which is what I'd prefer to do.

of course, still not a good option (too many OAs). Statically, our low AC cleric's going to be pasted.

Sigh.

I've edited Adain's action: Healing word himself, shift, move (w/ OA) so that Iridian can be hit in burst,  Beacon. Sorry, E13.


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## Erekose13 (Aug 19, 2008)

No worries, healing from 2hp and healing from 0 ain't much different.


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## Graf (Aug 19, 2008)

Interesting. We'd agreed in another game that an enemy counts as a blocked square and you can't move diagonally through blocked squares.

I'll see if there's some kind of WotC post up about it.


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## stonegod (Aug 19, 2008)

Seems pretty clear to me: You can move diag, just not through. Same as 3.5 in this instance. That quote on pg 283 is unambiguous.


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## Graf (Aug 19, 2008)

Thanks for the page. You are correct.
(thanks for your patience...)

Incidentally... what do you think about shifting across difficult terrain (i.e. you don't enter it, just past diagonally over it...)


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## Graf (Aug 19, 2008)

Irontooths will defense incidentally is 17...


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## Walking Dad (Aug 19, 2008)

I also thought the armor would save me 5 points...?


And:
We should have really made an extended rest. Starting with reduced HP and no dayly wasn't the best beginning for Tyron...

What was the reason to hurry?


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## Graf (Aug 20, 2008)

Armor? (not following sorry)Understand now. Editing to increase hit points.

People mentioned having extra APs when the decision to leave was made.

An extended rest would have given Iridian back his daily and a few people would have started off with an extra couple of hit points (or 8 or so in Adains case). But you haven't expended your healing surges so you could also have used them after your last fight...

We can do a post mortem after the fight's over...


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## Walking Dad (Aug 25, 2008)

Questions before I can post:

What about my last attack? Doesn't happen because of enemy movement/ risking Oas?

There are four KMs on the map. Which one is KM2?

Why has Tyron 12 and not 13 HPs in your last post?

I will post anyway, but maybe have to change it after your answers.


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## Graf (Aug 25, 2008)

I think your current action makes more sense given your situation. You're not blasting at full strength, but you're not dying either.

It's probably just me, but I find it hysterical that that you keep knifing minions and teleporting around. 

It may just be because I play casters, but I like the idea that even the wizard can be useful by beating up minions at close range.


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## Walking Dad (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks, the +3 from daggers and the 1 HP minions are a great help 

Swarming minions, that give other monsters a bonus and screw ranged attacks (to much OAs) are really a pain.
I really think about changing Dread Star to Armor of Agathys for more minion killing goodness.


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## Graf (Aug 26, 2008)

You have two defenders, and feylocks can get out of a 'pin' easily. What you really need is for other people to kill your cursed minions, then you could port-curse-blast-move.


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## Walking Dad (Aug 26, 2008)

That was what I hoped. But my cursed minins weren't attacked 

So I had to do it myself with my trusty dagger 

Edit: Just skimmed through the PB forum. This seems to be the oldest and only remaining KotS game!


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## Graf (Aug 27, 2008)

No update today. Sick at home; don't have my data file.


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## Walking Dad (Aug 27, 2008)

Sorry, man. Good luck and quick recovery.


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## kinem (Aug 27, 2008)

I hope you feel better, Graf.


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## Graf (Aug 28, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words!
Unfortunat!ely I'm still sick and so is my son... Will almost certainly go into work tomorrow where I left the maptools data file.


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## Walking Dad (Aug 28, 2008)

Reading the 'Ask wizard' to 'Commander's Strike':

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080827

I want to ask you, if you allow me to change my half-elf power, please.


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## Graf (Aug 29, 2008)

Yeah. I heard that on the podcast. It's a bizarre decision... what is the warlord doing? poking them with his sword while yelling "Attack you!"

You've used it this fight (which I'm fine with, it's just weird) why don't we worry about it once the fight is over.


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## Graf (Aug 29, 2008)

But yes, you can change it of course. 
I assume you'll take a break and go back to town.


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## EvolutionKB (Aug 29, 2008)

If we live that is...


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## Graf (Aug 29, 2008)

Sorry about the delay and missing people's movements, I've fixed the map. 

As for Zaram's action I feel like I should let it stand. It is hard to undo and, honestly, once you decided to move away from him and attack someone else the challenge wouldn't hold anyway.

So it's Brock -> Adain -> rest of PCs.


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## Graf (Sep 1, 2008)

Home again with the baby... no post today... sorry.


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## Graf (Sep 3, 2008)

OK. I've tried to attach files on three different browsers now... no go.  And the same problems with Quick Reply not working...  I've uploaded the map here for now.... 

(the black lines I tossed out last round are apparently permanent....)


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## Graf (Sep 4, 2008)

Fixed post.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 4, 2008)

The fight seems to be over soon...

With the PCs dead. While I think it is in character for Tyron to flee, I have aproblem with leaving the others to their fate. I should only play good characters...


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## Graf (Sep 5, 2008)

The ambusher is not a minion... you only teleport if you kill something and the ambusher may not even be bloodied yet (have to check). reemember this was the one that was in range when the priest did it's thing... it had temporary hit points too.

You are invisible to it though.
Which means you could just double move next round and run away.

[d]--[/d]

Who's dead? Brock is unconscious, but he'll get a healing save each round, and or someone can make a heal check.

Honestly, given all the circumstances, you're doing much better than I expected.

I'm not saying it will or won't be a tpk, or saying what you should do, of course.


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## Erekose13 (Sep 5, 2008)

Is Irontooth bloodied?  The latest map has him marked but not bloodied.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 5, 2008)

Sorry, I thought that 15 damage would be enough to down a bloodied skirmisher.
I will change my post.


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## Graf (Sep 7, 2008)

irontooth is bloodied 

The skirmisher wasn't hurt before you hit him. There were several of those guys when the fight started. And he had temp hit points too.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 7, 2008)

Graf said:


> irontooth is bloodied
> 
> The skirmisher wasn't hurt before you hit him. There were several of those guys when the fight started. And he had temp hit points too.



Sorry, my bad, I mistook KD for KA. (Both are cursed by Tyron).


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## Graf (Sep 8, 2008)

Iridian dropped KD1 so you get another port...


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## Walking Dad (Sep 8, 2008)

In a table game, I would try to flee with the ranger, hire help, (temporary PCs) and come back to save the not-killed but imprisoned heroes.

But this is PbP.

Graf, should I flee in character, or just end it B'n'B style and fight to the end. I'm good with both and will really miss Tyron (and this game in general).

And I think this adventurer would be have some other cool encounters.


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## Erekose13 (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm bringing Iridian out of the cave system to regroup with Tyron so hopefully we can make a stand together. With a huge damage round (19 to Irontooth!) here's hoping all is not lost.


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## Graf (Sep 9, 2008)

This post has been depreciated by fate.

[sblock=Old post]
WD,
I appreciate the question, I'm happy to rp out the attempt to escape.

[sblock=More Broadly in IC]
Leaving aside the fact that, in a normal DnD game, should you return to town, there would almost certainly be 4 grizzled new warriors ready and waiting to deliver some serious hurting to kobolds and goblins, .... there are no mercenaries in town.

(i.e. in a normal DnD game there would be four new PCs in town; logically though you'd have to go a lot further than Winterhaven to hire mercenaries. If there were mercenaries to hire they'd already be used to deal with the kobolds.)

At any rate you've basically wiped out the kobolds. They almost certainly aren't going to stay here.
[/sblock]

[sblock=This encounter]
Is sort famous for being a TPK. It's 6th level with an xp budget of 1250xp. 1st level encounters have an xp budget of 500xp or so.

Techinically if you sneak up on the kobolds outside, you're supposed to be able to kill them all before they raise the alarm. Then, when you go inside, you fight two waves. Wave 1 is just minions and ambushers. Irontooth, the priest and the dragonshields come in around round 3.

The problem, really is that the map is too small, and that it "punishes success".
If the fight outisde is close then you may wear the outside defenders down enough that you can pick them off, but if you do well the odds that the slinger makes it back inside are basically 100%.
Then you have do do all 1250 xp at one shot and you don't get any warning about what's in the cave. So you walk through the waterfall and everything is close in with shifty. There are no back enterances or "hints" or anything in the adventure.

[sblock=they needed the xp?]I've read somewhere that, in order for the page count and maps to work and to get people to high enough level quickly enough, WotC had to give out a lot of xp in a couple of pages. 
The "upside" of an encounter (3 encounters really) like this is that you get ~300+xp from one map.  [/sblock]

The Wyrmpriest is pretty dangerous. He's long range, vs reflex and does an average of 7.5 points of damage a shot. He basically killed Brock (he had some lucky rolls too, but last fight he was also a big contributer to damage and taking out Iridian). It's very hard to pin him with shifty and scads of other kobolds. 

Irontooth himself is a big throbbing lump of hurt. Dual attack + goblin tactics means that he's basically attacking twice around (avg. 7.5 per hit) and will often shift anyway. He starts healing as soon as you bloody him AND does an extra 1d10 points of damage when he hits(! - I have no idea why this is balanced...). He 'loses' goblin tactics and has to charge the nearest foe (not that that's really a loss).
You took him to 28ish with Brocks Daily and a good hit from Zaram, then he healed 5 twice and then you did 19. 

On one hand you'd cut his hit points to a 1/5th (he starts off with more than 100); on the other? He still had 19 hit points. So you'd have needed to do another 19 to take him down this round, or  24 next round or 29 the following round or etc etc.

A charging creature has a radius of 12 squares more or less. You need to be double move and running to have any chance of escape. And that's just Irontooth.
[/sblock]

[sblock=The non-existent map]I never actually gave you the location of the kobold lair, you were supposed to get it (like three different ways), but I'd intended for the map you received not to show their lair -- I never really explained exactly what it showed though, (just the dragongrave, the town and a suggested ambush point)-- so it's my fault.

I did that because I felt that it was a likely tpk; I'd kinda hoped you'd do everything else, visit the keep itself, get to 2nd level and then decide to go for the kobolds.

But people seemed keen to go for the kobolds; and I figured I'd roll with it. Some groups bulldoze through appearently (though they usually have tactical warlords and wizards who pour action points into clearing the field in round 1 or 2 and/or have DMs who modify the encounter).

I don't think you were "down resources" everyone had an action point and everyone but Iridian had a daily. One or two of you could have been at max hit points but I don't think anyone was too low.

It didn't really seem appropriate to change stuff. For better or worse this is KotS.

You survived the fight a lot longer than I feared. If it had been 200 xp lower you'd have made it.
[/sblock]

I was thinking about this yesterday. With sg already playing kots in real life if we were going to continue then I think that we'd have to re-recruit, and/or change the adventure significantly. The bad guys have the macguffin as well.

Lots of people are running kots games, and/or playing it real life, and/or know about the adventure (chunks of it showed up in the Penny Arcade podcast that WotC was distributing).
So the novelty of running KotS is, for me, a lot lower. It's basically just combat practice (not that I don't like that).

I'd be more interested in starting up a new game with people on L4W, if people are interested. You could either pick a common theme/background and suggest adventure topics I'd run or we could just do something else....
[/sblock]


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## stonegod (Sep 9, 2008)

Err.. Graf: I don't think Irontooth could legally move to Iridian unless he pulled some string. If has a normal move of 6, that doesn't clear him of the lower lip of the wall separating the two parts of the SW chamber... thus, he couldn't charge (you have to "move directly" to the target). If he ran as his move action, he could charge, but at a -5 to his attack (for a net -4 after the charge, which would miss the ranger). 

That's assuming IT isn't doing something I'm not aware of. I haven't looked at the bugger's stats.


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## Graf (Sep 9, 2008)

Ah, the move directly conversation.

I've seen this argued by somebody else too. Here's my understanding:
1. I've heard on a bunch of podcasts, etc from the designers that they didn't like charge as written so they made it simpler. You can now charge around corners, etc.
2. Move directly doesn't mean in a straight line to me. (I understand that Jemal and some other folks argue that direct comes from the latin for "straight" so it's supposed to be straight).

Personally I think that if they wanted to write "you must move in a straight line" then they would have put "you must move in a straight line" like they did with 3.x. 

I just think it means "you have to go directly toward that person". I suppose, if I had to make some sort of complex legalize sort of rule for what that means I'd say, directly = "every square you move must take you closer to the target". 
(and you must stop once you can attack the target)

I will go check the errata though. I may have missed something.


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## Graf (Sep 9, 2008)

Ere,

Here's the actions as I have it

I think I may have shafted Tyron somewhere (which is why the action is currently a future vision). But you've gotten all your actions I think.




Round 10​
Zaram hits Irontooth (the round before he's been Dailied by Brock so he's down to 28 at this point)


Tyron misses Ambusher.

Iridian hits Irontooth.

--Wyrmpriest kills Brock.

--KDS1 charges Adain

--KDS2 hits Zaram.

--Irontooth misses twice.

--Abusher hits Tyron for 2.

Brock down

Adain wiffs with mace


Round 11​ 

Zaram misses Irontooth, shifts.

Tyron finally blinds the ambusher, injuring it.

Iridian kills Adain's Dragonshield

--KDS2 stabs Zaram. 
--Irontooth kills Zaram.

--KA crits Adain and downs him.


Brock down.
Adain down.

Round 12​
Zaram down.

Iridian hits Irontooth for 19, moves away.

Tyron gets to go (I think this is where he lost his action)

--Irontooth and gang go. Iridian charged and dropped. 

======================

So I have moves for Iridian on round 10 (shot irontooth), round 11 (kill KDS) and round 12 (19 on Irontooth).

SInce he drops you on round 12 when it gets to be your turn on 13 then you're down.

Tyron has two actions; but I can't really think of anything he can do to save you....

The best would be to "ready an action to blast anyone who attacks Irididan" and then hope to do 19(?) points of damage to Irontooth.

So you could survive, if he does that and rolls well.


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## Graf (Sep 9, 2008)

Things just got a lot more interesting.... The question, really, is, what does Adain do...?

The longer Tyron leads them away from the cave, the more chance you have to heal up.


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## stonegod (Sep 9, 2008)

Graf said:


> Things just got a lot more interesting.... The question, really, is, what does Adain do...?
> 
> The longer Tyron leads them away from the cave, the more chance you have to heal up.



Chances for the others to heal; Adain has no other means to do so (other than w/ a heal check). Of course, Brock is up now as well...

Can't act until round 13 (death save happens last in the round).


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## Graf (Sep 9, 2008)

This is awesome... I need to go edit Tyron's vision.


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## Erekose13 (Sep 9, 2008)

Brutal! I'd heard that this was a TPK and I do have the mod but resisted the urge to crack it open and find out why. Irontooth is just huge, wow!

All in all I've definitely had a lot of fun with this game Graf.  I like your DM style and commitment.  The maps and the style you use are very tactical and make me flex some wargaming skills that I havent had to in a long time (my F2F group plays 4e with no minis or maps).  I've had a great time and look forward to playing under your lead again soon.  Though I shouldn't speak to soon with two nat 20s for death saves we are still in business... maybe.

If you'd like to close up KotS I'm okay with that, but I'd like to continue with this group of players either here or in L4W.


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## Erekose13 (Sep 9, 2008)

regarding round order. thats how i was reading it but missed Iridian's action in rd. 12.

Regarding charges, I've read it to mean you can move around corners but you can't try to move past the target to get into a better flanking position when charging.


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## Graf (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks for the complements. 

No, I'd really ruled out the odds of somebody getting a natural 20 before the fight ended. Let alone 2. Back to back. 

If Tyron runs away we can set up some kind of skill challenge. Maybe a 5/2 stealth vs. perception (their perception is pretty weak). Each success is a minute, two failures and he has to fight. 

(Actually, once he gets to 2 successes they probably won't come back in time. So two successes and then one more roll to lose them... 3/2?)

Once you ding 5 minutes.... everybody's got lots of hit points, encounters come back, and some serious hurting happens. Irontooth will probably heal up to non-bloodied, but the monsters haven't been resting so the few encounters they have don't come back...

Alternatively... you could just fight it out now. Brock and Adain are up. Iridian and Zaram can be brought back with heal checks. Ranged combat favors the party (assuming you can do something about the priest).


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 9, 2008)

I too would like to continue in with this group in one form or another.  Looks like it is time to party, though I have one thing to ask.  How is it you can revive unconscious party members with heal checks?  I thought you only do that to let a character use their second wind.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm for fighting on. Tyron still got his encounter power (I hope it will hit), and with the movement penality to stealth, there is no chance Tyron will be able to run and hide...


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## Graf (Sep 10, 2008)

_edot: deleted_


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 10, 2008)

Looks like this could be the end of our lucky(or not so lucky) warlock...


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## Graf (Sep 10, 2008)

I have some bad news, when poking around to see the rules about death saves and healing...
You die at -bloodied. Zaram was knocked down to -17; but his bloodied value is only 13....
So... unless I made a math mistake somewhere... Irontooths attack left him dead.


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## Graf (Sep 10, 2008)

Because he got skipped, and death saves happen at the end of the round, it is once again Tyron's turn.


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## stonegod (Sep 10, 2008)

Re Zaram: Ouch!

As for the others: Has Iridian spent his SW yet? Doesn't look like it. So I could use a Heal check for him to spend it (supersedes the stabilization check). Once I can stand and move over there w/o Irontooth gacking me.


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## Graf (Sep 10, 2008)

I though he used a second wind at some point, but if not then of course.


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 10, 2008)

Yeah, I had thought it was negative full hp.  Doh!


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## Erekose13 (Sep 10, 2008)

Nope no second wind used, but no remaining surges either. Thats where not taking an extended rest hurt him more than the loss of his daily.


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## Graf (Sep 11, 2008)

That would be a barrier to healing Iridian... 

Sorry for the delay, L4W is due to launch like... now. So I have a lot of stuff I'm trying to chew through. 

Should get a second to run things soon.


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## Graf (Sep 11, 2008)

So.... Tyron's at -15. 

Adain and Brock probably aren't going to get that 5 minute break.


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## stonegod (Sep 11, 2008)

Graf said:


> So.... Tyron's at -15.
> 
> Adain and Brock probably aren't going to get that 5 minute break.




Wyrmpriest and IT are not bloodied. One hit is going to get either of Adain or Brock. Hiding ain't an option (no Dex so its going to suck). Could try slipping out the N entrance while everyone else (hopefully) enters through the south/waterfall (unlikely w/ the WP) and wait 5.

Otherwise, looks like a suicidal attack. Start w/ the WP or ambusher to prevent an single IT charge, methinks.

Thoughts, kinem?


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## Graf (Sep 11, 2008)

Irontooth is bloodied, but he's healing rapidly. He gets 5 hit points every round so long as he's Blood Crazed (i.e. bloodied). Once he stops being blood crazed he'll stop getting that extra +1d10 to damage (which is how he's killing people in one hit), but then he'll have 53 hit points.

He's got 24 hit points this round after healing.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 11, 2008)

Were the bushes/trees difficult terrain?

I will miss Tyron  

Do you need an alt, if the rest of the group survives the encounter 

We still have an leader and a defender... How about a new warlock... tiefling starlock using some of the new insider cha star powers.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 11, 2008)

BTW: Doesn' cover and concealment stack? Would be a -4 on the attack roll of the priest... Or gave the trees and bushes only concealment and no cover? What about stacking of cover... (I have to try to save Tyron...)


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## Graf (Sep 12, 2008)

No. They just provided cover. I'm convinced that this is some kind of typo.

>BTW: Doesn' cover and concealment stack? Would be a -4 
> on the attack roll of the priest... Or gave the trees and 
> bushes only concealment and no cover? What about 
> stacking of cover... (I have to try to save Tyron...)
They do!
I forgot the concealment when I was rolling the first time (see the sblock still hit by one) but Irontooth used both -2s and still got a 19.


I share EvKB's sentiment
>I too would like to continue in with this group in one form or another.
In addition to being great players you guys have been very diligent about posting and letting me know when you're unavailable; it's uncommon to have five players who play nice together and keep posting.

My inclination would be to figure out some way to keep the group together.
(With the caveat that my life will get very busy during the end of the year - there could be a significant pause)


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 12, 2008)

I agree, this group is uncommonly good at posting on time/letting know when they are going to be gone.  Perhaps it is that +2 to attacks for on time posts?    If Graf is up for DMing a game, I'll vote for something in the paragon tier(unless we are going with a living game).  My real life games are delayed, and as DM I won't get to experience that for a while.


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## Graf (Sep 12, 2008)

That is an idea! 
We -could- take the same group and someone else could DM .

I love playing paragon 

[d]--[/d]

Paragon is completely beyond my grasp right now. KK1 ate my brain completely, and it wasn't fun for the players either; I thought it would be a cool scenario but mostly people just found it annoying.

The issue is really just capacity for me. After my test tomorrow I'll have free time (in principal). But....

L4W is going to start soon; there will be a lot of characters (well in excess of judges) so we'll need people to run games. I have two short ones planned. 

My ePoL game, which was really weak for a while is coming back strong (which I'm very happy about but it's heavy roleplaying, heavy design).

That's three games, all of which have both design (maps, monsters, etc) and roleplaying components.

Plus whatever I'm going to have to do with L4W as a facilitator/judge. (Which, so far, has been a metric ton of typing and organzing).


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## stonegod (Sep 12, 2008)

Ditto on the busy. I'll have a character for L4W (where are you getting the guestimate count on players? I've seen barely 7 regular posters).


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 12, 2008)

I just finished posting a character on L4W.  He should be fun to play.  He'd be my first "living" character.


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## Graf (Sep 12, 2008)

stonegod said:


> Ditto on the busy. I'll have a character for L4W (where are you getting the guestimate count on players? I've seen barely 7 regular posters).



My trusty crack pipe tells me the truth, about everything. (EVERYTHING!)

[sblock=Actually]I have a theory that says "for every person that posts to complain there are 5 people out there who think the same thing but don't post".

So we see two or three posts a week b*tching about how there are no open 4e games? I think that means there are -probably- 15 people floating around.

And there are soooo many 4e games that are dead or in torpor right now. If you totaled up all the people who joined games and posted regularly you'd get what? 20 people? 30?

There are probably at least 5 people I've seen who've bumped inert games recently but haven't been posting on the Living threads.

I mean... the character creation stuff could be a bit daunting (we kinda went nuts on the templates). And Living Settings aren't for everyone.

But 4th edition only came out a few months ago and excitement is still strong.
I'd be amazed if we didn't have 20~30 people by next Friday.

Especially if they come and it seems like the forum is active and there are new games starting.[/sblock]


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## Erekose13 (Sep 12, 2008)

I'll have a character for L4W and I'm workin on a short adventure proposal that might turn into a 3 parter. oops did I say short? well each section should be short.  I'd love to keep this group together too. Perhaps we use this thread to coordinate our first L4W game together and see where that takes us.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 12, 2008)

Sounds like I have to make a L4W character, too.

Graf, I really like your gaming style and wasn't annoyed by the KK1 game. I had real fun and got new love for halflings and rangers 

PS: Can somebody give me the quick links for character creation rules and the character thread?

PPS: If we plan to make a party in LEW, we should perhaps tell each other our classes (or classes we want to play). Not a good start for L4W with only defenders


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## Walking Dad (Sep 12, 2008)

Found it!


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## stonegod (Sep 12, 2008)

I've got a warforged warlock in the works...

Guess we're pretty much done here, then? I'll post something for Adain later today. Most likely heroic and suicidal (especially since noone has any HS left they can spend).


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## Erekose13 (Sep 12, 2008)

Callen is the Human Wizard serving as one of the template examples in L4W.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 12, 2008)

I'm working on a dwarf fighter.

Can somebody point me to the power template?


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## stonegod (Sep 12, 2008)

Walking Dad said:


> I'm working on a dwarf fighter.
> 
> Can somebody point me to the power template?



If you copied one of the others, when you edit your page, they'll all be linked at the bottom. If not, click edit on one of the others to get those links. I don't have them right now.


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## Erekose13 (Sep 12, 2008)

Template:L4Wower - ENWiki


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## Walking Dad (Sep 12, 2008)

Thanks!


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 13, 2008)

Hmmm...something happened to my character...I got it fixed now.  I posted a shifter ranger.


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## kinem (Sep 13, 2008)

It's been fun.  Thanks for running a good game, Graf.

I don't know - I'll consider making a L4W character.  If we were continuing with new characters to avenge the TPK in this game, I'd make a dwarven warlock with the ranger multiclass feat - Brock's cousin, going to avenge him.

I played this game because I wanted to try 4e, not just condemn it without having any experience with it.

I'm still no fan of 4e and I still eagerly await the next edition which I hope will fix 3.5's many horrible flaws.  The only step in that direction right now is Pathfinder and that does hold out some promise as it's working well so far in the face to face game I'm in.

Things I don't like about 4e: minions, marking, martial dailies, the lack of spells that actually do anything (OK there are a few - they're called rituals, but they have expensive material components and can't be cast in combat, and I predict no PC will ever cast one in the history of 4e play except for Raise Dead and Remove Disease), NPCs not built on the same rules as PCs (well - not built on any rules at all really, just ask Irontooth), healing surges, the huge # of hp that monsters have, the XP-based encounter design system (no more accurate than the CR system was - witness the TPK  - but more work) ... Well, you get the idea.

BUT - I do think it's a good system for B'n'P gaming!  It can be quick 'n' dirty, just fine for conventions or impromptu games.

Anyway - good group, and it can be a change of pace, so I'll consider joining


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## Walking Dad (Sep 13, 2008)

kinem said:


> ... the lack of spells that actually do anything (OK there are a few - they're called rituals, but they have expensive material components and can't be cast in combat, and I predict no PC will ever cast one in the history of 4e play except for Raise Dead and Remove Disease)...



We do some paragon stuff in the 'Kompat Krazyness' threads, and using the waterwalking ritual was very helpful.

I never needed Mage’s Magnificent Mansion as a standard action 'combat spell'. But not arguing about editions (I like the Pathfinder stuff, too). I would be glad to be in an additional game with you.

This is a really persistent and 'cool' group.


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## stonegod (Sep 13, 2008)

kinem said:


> the XP-based encounter design system (no more accurate than the CR system was - witness the TPK  - but more work) ... Well, you get the idea.



The battle is a 6th level encounter IIRC, which is beyond the high end of the scale. Its akin to several classic Paizo 1st level battles (I can think of a few in AoW and ST) that exist only to get you to second as fast as possible. All of them are grinders.

That being said, the main difference between Irontook battle one and the one I played in RL was the lack of a controller. Our wizard took out most of the mooks in one hit. Makes a large difference.

That being said, I still play 3.5 (love my 17th level malconvoker) and 4E.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 13, 2008)

Yeah, fear controller crowd control. See the wizards action here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4463166-post154.html


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## Graf (Sep 16, 2008)

kinem,

I wanted to respond to you but I'm having trouble making the time. I don't really want to get into a good edition/bad edition thing.

Personally I loved 3.x ran it to death; got burned out dming and had to stop. It's a metric ****load of work to run; at least if you actually folllow the rules.
I play in 3.5 games where, I swear to god, I don't understand the other PCs. Like stonegods druid? Doesn't compute. He can transform, which is fine, and he uses a bunch of weird forms from some book that I don't clearly remember, but I understand that concept.
But then he as all these other feats that do stuff to his transformations, and they all stack, and they change each round.

I agree with Ken Hite when he said (i think it was on The Games the Thing podcast) that the two games just do different things.
3.5 is a tradition of the "rule for everything" (or really, several different sets of unique rules for everything) tradition that started in oDnD.

4e isn't trying to do that. It's a dungeon crawler. Everything that you hate (minions, etc) I like, just cause it's an abstraction that saves me time.

Still need to figure out what's going on re-transfering this game.... I think sg has joined Halford's game.
Which, given how much time character approval is taking is probably smart.

Just doing that and running ePoL is taking up 5~6 hours a day for me.


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## stonegod (Sep 16, 2008)

Graf said:


> I play in 3.5 games where, I swear to god, I don't understand the other PCs. Like stonegods druid? Doesn't compute. He can transform, which is fine, and he uses a bunch of weird forms from some book that I don't clearly remember, but I understand that concept.
> But then he as all these other feats that do stuff to his transformations, and they all stack, and they change each round.



Domoris is all sorts of book-crunching. A fun exercise, but I can understand the confusion. hell, I forget what he can do at times. 



Graf said:


> Still need to figure out what's going on re-transfering this game.... I think sg has joined Halford's game.
> Which, given how much time character approval is taking is probably smart.



Nope. Incarnation is not going off to save the princess. Not his thing.

As for 4E vs 3E: I play both. Just finished a real high level Paizo AP in 3.5 as DM so I'm not really in the mood for that again. But I still play (I love my malcovoker).


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## Graf (Sep 16, 2008)

Right sorry. I'd read that, too much inflow too few brain cells.

Currently I'm struggling with the following issue: I have two games blocked out in my head, a few people have expressed interest in playing with me.

1. A sort of mystery; Daunton based
2. A sort of dungeon crawler; on Mykonos' Sanctuary.

Both are short. Neither has been approved. Both have a sort of "flavor of the world" type vibe. They link, potentially, to further adventures, but very tangentially.

Neither really addresses sg's awesome backstory; kinda a shame. (One could have a hook of a sort, but would require finessing and even then it wouldn't really provide much grist). EveKB's backstory is more flexible; but again doesn't have a strong link to either adventure. I haven't seen other peoples yet (and kinem may not be joining us).

It would be interesting, but more work, to have a party who are all linked to the five in some way (taking a cue from sg)... If there was a theme'd thing going on?
I'd probably want to, in some way, to calibrate the adventure to address it.

Sorry this is so random. That's my current mental state.


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## Erekose13 (Sep 16, 2008)

I went off and joined Halfords game hehe. A well, I'm sure we'll all continue gaming together. Or hey I could DM our group in L4W...


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## Halford (Sep 16, 2008)

I think I just saw someone volunteer to run a monsterous pirate game...


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## Graf (Sep 16, 2008)

It's probably smart, as I said I'm swamped and dragging posterior right now.
You could totally DM our group...


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 16, 2008)

...and then you could play too.  My background is short and sweet right now.  I might add some more setting flavor to it if I feel the need to.  I'm working over 60 hrs this week, so might be next week.


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## renau1g (Sep 16, 2008)

Graf - as an FYI I'm not sure if you use Maptools or not, but there is a fully detailed and completed campaign for the KoTS if you're looking for some time-saving material for this module. I hope it helps  (oh yeah if you need a replacement for the near-TPK that was mentioned by SG on the L4W boards... wink, wink)

RPTools.net Forums :: View topic - Keep on the Shadowfell (Fully Updated)


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## Erekose13 (Sep 16, 2008)

Halford, looks like Pheonix will be picking up the monsterous crew.

So far we've got:

Stonegod - Incarnation - Warforged Hellock
Graf - Amicus Nuldico - Eladrin Paladin
EvolutionKB - Rurdev - Shifter Ranger
Walking Dad - Dorn Thunderhammer - Dwarf??? ???

Kinem if you change your mind let me know. At the moment I'll start working on some plot ideas for these four. Walking Dad, do you have any more on your character that I can start with?  There is a lot to pull from on Incarnation and something I can work in for Amicus; Rurdev I'm not sure how to weave his hook in but I'll think on it some more.


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## Graf (Sep 17, 2008)

Amicus is still very rough; so if you think it ought to be developed in one way or another just let me know...


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## Walking Dad (Sep 17, 2008)

Dorn will be a fighter from  Mykonos' Sanctuary. He will use a hammer. Probably hammer and board. More loner and mercenary than proud clan warrior.


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## stonegod (Sep 17, 2008)

Well, if we do all go together, we're missi'n leader and controller...


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 17, 2008)

Aye...that would be trouble.  Perhaps a real test of 4E roles?(I think we really need a leader)


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## Walking Dad (Sep 17, 2008)

I could change to eladrin tactical warlord. My dwarf is very incomplete and I had never the chance to play an eladrin or warlord.


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 17, 2008)

I think that would work very well.  I wrote up a nice Eladrin warlord(with wizard multiclass) and it seemed pretty good on paper.


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## Erekose13 (Sep 17, 2008)

Personally I think that 4e handles roles better than 3.5 and I never had a problem adjusting the opposition to focus on what my players brought to the table. No rogues, curiously there are very few traps, no clerics, hmm where did all the undead plots go? etc.  No controller, fewer encounters with minions or at least tons of minions. No leader, more time planned between encounters. That said, I've heard good things of tactical warlords and enjoyed playing an eladrin in this game.


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## Graf (Sep 18, 2008)

you can play exactly one character in l4w... Right now anyway (if/when it changes it will be at least a few months) 
be careful about picking something to try to fit the current composition
I'd suggest playing the character you're most excited about and leaving yourself in ere's hands. My character could easily dip warlord for healing word... 

Having said that two spear fighting eladrin imperium legionairres could be lots of fun


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## Erekose13 (Sep 19, 2008)

Okay so I've got the outlines of the plot ready on paper, now to transcribe it to the format requested and submit it.  WD any news on your character? I'll wait till he is ready to go to make sure you're in the adventure but if I get some advanced preview of his background/hooks I can try to weave it into the story up front.  Regarding composition, we can always leave room for one more to bring us up to five. That wont fill 2 roles necessarily but it can compensate a bit.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 19, 2008)

I have maior problems to get it edited as I like.

Can I post the character here in standard formatting and one of you can help me to transcribe it in the other format?


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## Graf (Sep 19, 2008)

Fantastic! This is gonna be great. I gotta get Amicus finished now.

I'm thinking we may need a leader. Even counting my lay on hands and a feat swap I could only heal 3 times a day. And Lay on Hands really works best with a second defender (or at least melee type...)


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## Walking Dad (Sep 19, 2008)

Here are the stats in my standard formatting. I will try to get it up myself, but if anybody wants to help...

[sblock]*
Riardon d'Cealis* *Player:* WD
Home Region: Imperium
Eladrin (Tactical) Warlord    *XP* 0   *Level* 1
* Initiative* +0    *Senses* Low-light Vision
* Passive Insight* 11;  *Passive Perception* 16
* HP* 24; *Bloodied* 12; *Surge Value* 6; *Surges Per-Day* 8
* AC* 17; *Fortitude* 15; *Reflex* 14; *Will* 13
Saving Throw Bonus against charm +5
*Speed* 6
* Alignment* Unaligned
* Languages* Common, Elven

* Str* 18  *Dex* 10  *Wis* 12
* Con* 12  *Int* 16  *Cha* 10

Basic Attack:
Longsword: +7 / 1d8+4
Javelin: +6 / 1d6+4

* Racial Abilities*
Eladrin Education, Eladrin Weapon Proficiency, Eladrin Will, Fey Origin, Trance, Feystep

* Class Features*
Combat Leader
Commanding Presence
Inspiring word

* At-Will Powers*
Viper's Strike
Wolf Pack Tactics
 
* Encounter Powers*
Warlord's Favor
Scorching Burst
Feystep

* Daily Powers*
Lead the Attack

* Utility Powers*
 -

* Feats*
Arcane Initiate

* Skills* (Trained)
Arcana
Athletics
Diplomacy
Heal
History
Perception

* Equipment*
Standard adventurers pack (15), Longsword (15), Dagger (1), Hide Armor (30), Light Shield (5), 4 javelins (20), 14gp

[/sblock]

A bit clumsy (for a eladrin), but strong and quick-minded, Riardon joined the imperial forces at an early age. He is not the most charismaic leader, but the soldiers respected and trusted his superior tactics and his willingnes to stand with them in melee against the strongest foes.
While he has some talent for arcane magic, it is rather untrained.

Deity: Palladys

--------

Erekose, can you give some information about the adventure? It would help me to choose my kicker.

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Here is what I got so far:

http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/L4WC:Riardon_d%27Cealis_(Walking_Dad)


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## Erekose13 (Sep 19, 2008)

I've done most of the math stuff in templates down below on your character sheet.

Re adventure: Sure here is my elevator pitch:

Unearthed from the darkest, twisted pits a malignant force is unknowingly unleashed upon Daunton by one of the adventurers that the small city seeks to attract.  Our heroes must unravel a mysterious death that could threaten the sanity of the entire island. The Sibylline Idol will thrust the heroes into an occult world that dates back before the founding of the Imperium.


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## stonegod (Sep 20, 2008)

Erekose13 said:


> I've done most of the math stuff in templates down below on your character sheet.
> 
> Re adventure: Sure here is my elevator pitch:
> 
> Unearthed from the darkest, twisted pits a malignant force is unknowingly unleashed upon Daunton by one of the adventurers that the small city seeks to attract.  Our heroes must unravel a mysterious death that could threaten the sanity of the entire island. The Sibylline Idol will thrust the heroes into an occult world that dates back before the founding of the Imperium.



And how does this tie in with our various chars (curious)?


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## Erekose13 (Sep 20, 2008)

Without giving away too much (I hope)
Incarnation - investigation points to research done by the big guy (lots more than this, but hard not to give away too much).
Amico (& potentially Riardon) - Idol markings are in an ancient form of Elven and tied to the early Imperium (again lots more too).
Rurdev - Dead guy = a shifter from his tribe too (the most tangential connection to the plot unfortunately).

Note that some of these ties are a bit longer term too, especially the bigger links I have in mind.


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## stonegod (Sep 20, 2008)

Well, I'm ready.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 20, 2008)

Erekose13 said:


> I've done most of the math stuff in templates down below on your character sheet...




Thank you very much. I will add some background and mail the judges.


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 21, 2008)

I see your connection and will run with it.

So far we have two strikers (myself and stonegod, melee ranger and infernal forgedlock respectively), and a leader(walkingdad's eladrin warlord).  Graf's Pally seems to have disappeared, and unfortuneatly we probably won't hear from him until Monday.  If Graf decides to still go with defender, then I think we will be alright, and can pick up another person if we feel like we need it.  Another defender or a controller I think would be ideal.  With a 15 AC I won't be able to stick in melee for long.


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## Graf (Sep 22, 2008)

Will be an eladrin defender, unchanged. 
He's not approved yet but we can potentially start, so long as Ere13 as DM is OK with it, without being approved. 

I will get amicus approved soon. I just have some other RL obligations and so forth to deal with. With a Cha oriented pally with two lay-on-hands and a warlord I think we're gonna be good for healing. I'll probably keep my original feat and not take tactical yet.

The character, actually is here. His to-hit is total ----. Not sure if I should try to pump it up or not. If people have feedback on build I'd love to take it.
(He's reverse engeneered from rp, so...)


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 22, 2008)

Looks good to me.  It looks to me like you are going for a secondary melee role with the longspear.  If you switched to longsword(or spear) and shield how much would that change your concept?  That would be the only way to improve the character and still keep a similar concept that I can see.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 22, 2008)

Edit: Sorry, 

only the link was broken.

http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/L4W:PC:Riardon_d'Cealis_(Walking_Dad)


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## Graf (Sep 23, 2008)

Yeah I somehow forgot that the Longspear was two handed.... 

With Divine Challenge shift and reach I'd imagined having a three square strike zone centered on me, so I could "pull" a striker hassling our back line*. But I think I need the shield for reflex (and AC too of course).
*=We only have one defender, and I'm sensitive to the difficulty 1st level strikers and controllers have keeping themselves out of melee.

Is it feasible to be "hot swapping" somehow? Quick draw lets you draw for free... So I could sheath another weapon as a minor, draw and attack. But I don't think that per RAW I can draw the shield the same way....

Without Quickdraw:
I could start with the shield and spear and drop both (free) to draw the longspear (minor) move and attack but I wouldn't be able to challenge. So it would be draw + challenge or move without quick draw.

I could pick up the items provided they were in my square or an adjacent square (or just carry around two shields and two spears)... so long as its the same mark I just need to keep engaging.

Not sure if it's really going to make a big difference, I just have a very low chance to hit right now, so I was trying to leverage my assets. Divine Challenge works with a hit or a miss.


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## Walking Dad (Sep 23, 2008)

Readying a shiels is a standard action.


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## Graf (Sep 23, 2008)

You... are so correct.
Thank you!

I think I need to be shield and spear then. (Somehow I don't think I can get the judges to approve a second set of arms....)

[d]--[/d]

I am, btw, very psyched about your adventure idea Ere! Looking forward to what you're coming up with. I'd been thinking about Amicus partially as a way to rp-about-the-imperium and this indulges that beautifully.

I will get him finished and submitted soon.


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## Erekose13 (Sep 23, 2008)

I've got one approval from Covaithe so far. Need another to proceed.


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## Graf (Sep 24, 2008)

OK. I can't obviously look at it myself but I'll ping the list and see what the status is if there's no movement by later today.


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## Erekose13 (Sep 26, 2008)

Okay its up! WD get in there. I'll have to figure out how to get Amicus in if you are going to be away on a business trip Graf. Let me know if you can tie him in prior to that. If I don't hear from you, I'll work him in another way.


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## Graf (Sep 26, 2008)

There is something on my desk that absolutely has to get out. 
If I can get that done...


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## Walking Dad (Sep 26, 2008)

Erekose13 said:


> Okay its up! WD get in there. I'll have to figure out how to get Amicus in if you are going to be away on a business trip Graf. Let me know if you can tie him in prior to that. If I don't hear from you, I'll work him in another way.



I'm in. Will there be an own ooc thread? As I have no longer a character in Graf's game.


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## stonegod (Sep 26, 2008)

Walking Dad said:


> I'm in. Will there be an own ooc thread? As I have no longer a character in Graf's game.



Post in the Tavern thread (to join the game); E13 will create an adventure thread that will work both as IC and OOC.


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## Graf (Sep 26, 2008)

I thought I was going to hit my window but I didn't. Rolling out the door. 

-If- it's not troublesome could I join later by virtue of knowing Riardon d'Cealis? We're both Eladrin from the Imperium so its not much of a stretch (in fact, given that the portal has straned everyone, it makes more sense than not knowing each other).

If you can't hold a slot for me that's fine too. My time management issues are my own.


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## Erekose13 (Sep 26, 2008)

Will do Graf.  I get deadlines, I've got two big ones coming due next Wednesday that are hanging over my shoulder and this trouble with my car sucks for timing.


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