# Elminster vs. Mordenkainen



## dead (May 11, 2004)

I don't play Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms so I have no allegiances but, in the back of the Epic Level Handbook, the two wizards' levels are listed as follows:

Elminster: 24th level Wizard / 5th level Archmage / 1st level Fighter / 2 level Rogue / 3rd level Cleric. A total 35 character levels! Or, if you just count the arcane classes (Wizard and Archmage), a 29th level arcane spellcaster!

Mordenkainen: 27th level Wizard.

Now, I was just wondering, as the Grand Daddy of D&D wizards (whose spells grace our PHB), shouldn't Mordenkainen be more powerful than Elminster?

Perhaps you're saying it's irrelevant if Mordenkainen is the "Grand Daddy of D&D wizards", it all depends on how long Elminster and Mordenkainen have been "adventuring" for.

Well . . . in the Greyhawk book, "The Adventure Begins", it says that Mordenkainen was of "low level" around about circa 560 C.Y. as evidenced by his stats in the module "WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure". Now, I don't own this module so I can't tell you exactly what level he is in there but, if he was "low" level then and 27th level now in the current Greyhawk timeline of 592 C.Y., that means it took him 32 years to get from low level to epic level. Wow! What slow progression! D&D characters can go from 1st level to 20th level in less than a game year but it took Mordy 20+ years! I can only assume he was doing a lot of spell research during this time and, thus, we have his famous spells in the PHB.

As for Elminster, I don't know much about his adventuring history so I can't tell you. If someone could please enlighten me on how many years Elminster has been adventuring for then it would be greatly appreciated.

Nevertheless, at the moment I can only say: "Mordy, you'd be creamed by Elminster!"  

As a side note, 3E D&D has 3 other "official" campaign settings: Dragonlance, Kalamar, and Eberron.

Could someone please tell me who the most powerful wizard is in these campaign settings and what his/her level is. But, more importantly, can he/she kick Mordenkainen's and Elminster's butt?


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## Altamont Ravenard (May 11, 2004)

I think Raistlin Majere is the Pimp Wizard of Dragonlance. Can't tell you who's the pimpest, though.

IIRC, Elminster is old, waaaay old, centuries old. He did the nasty with a goddess, and he's the chosen of the Goddess of Magic.


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## dead (May 11, 2004)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> I think Raistlin Majere is the Pimp Wizard of Dragonlance.




Raistlin should, by rights, be very powerful -- he killed the god Takhisis in an alternate timeline! What level was he when he achieved this great feat?



			
				Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> IIRC, Elminster is old, waaaay old, centuries old. He did the nasty with a goddess, and he's the chosen of the Goddess of Magic.




Thanks. This would explain why Elminster is a lot more powerful than Mordenkainen's paultry 27th level.


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## Quasqueton (May 11, 2004)

The main thing to keep in mind with these two wizards:

Mordenkainen was/is a real PC in a real campaign. You can look at Mordenkainen as a "real character" in the World of Greyhawk. Mord got his 27 levels by actual in-game adventuring.

Elminster was/is a toy of a DM and author. Elminster was never a "real character". El got his levels by DM fiat, and authors exapanded on that.

And I don't mean this as any kind of insult to Elminster or FR players. 

Quasqueton


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## dreaded_beast (May 11, 2004)

In my opinion, it is a result of being in 2 different campaigns:

World of Greyhawk: Standard Generic Fantasy

Forgotten Realms: High Magic Fantasy


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## Alzrius (May 11, 2004)

Mordenkainen is, from what I can tell, less than a century old. Elminster, on the other hand, is over a thousand years old. "Age and experience," as they say.


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## Ssyleia (May 11, 2004)

I tend to agree with dreaded_beast - FR is a very high powered setting, while Greyhawk is rather low powered in comparison. In Greyhawk, a 10th level character is a reknowned hero, in FR a 10th level character may well be second-in-command of a major city's constabulary.

Therefore Elminster ought to be more powerful. However "levels" IMHO is not the only indication of power. While Elminster might have more levels and hence a better combat ability, Mordenkainen probably commands tenfold as much political influence as Elminster. Also, Mordenkainen has all the power he need to combat his (comparably weaker) enemies, while a score of epic level FR archvillains (Manshoon, Shoon VII, the Malaugrym to name a few) make Elminster's life a lot harder than Mordenkainen's life.


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## Alzrius (May 11, 2004)

dead said:
			
		

> As a side note, 3E D&D has 3 other "official" campaign settings: Dragonlance, Kalamar, and Eberron.




A very loaded statement. _Kingdoms of Kalamar_ has the _Dungeons & Dragons_ logo on it, but has never actually been published by Wizards of the Coast; Kenzer Co. has rented it out as some part of a deal...from what I heard, it was some sort or restitution on WotC's part for something they did.

Likewise, the _Dragonlance Campaign Setting_ was published by Wizards of the Coast, however, it was written entirely by staff of Sovereign Press, and all subsequent _Dragonlance_ products have been published by Sovereign Press. This is because Sovereign Press pitched the idea to Wizards of the Coast about them (Sovereign) resurrecting the DL line. WotC agreed, with the stipulation that they (WotC) would publish the main setting book. I personally find this to be a rather sleazy business tactic, because the main setting book is always a product line's best selling product, and by being the publisher, WotC will reap virtually all of the profits on it's sales - like a lion, it let someone else do the work, and it taking the rewards.

WotC adopted this tactic after White Wolf optioned _Ravenloft_, and saw that it was a hit. Since this new policy of their now means that third-party companies will have to, financially, start out at a loss when publishing a discontinued campaign, this is now the primary reason why more interest in d20 companies publishing old campaign worlds has dropped off.


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## dead (May 11, 2004)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> WotC agreed, with the stipulation that they (WotC) would publish the main setting book. I personally find this to be a rather sleazy business tactic, because the main setting book is always a product line's best selling product, and by being the publisher, WotC will reap virtually all of the profits on it's sales - like a lion, it let someone else do the work, and it taking the rewards.




Thank you for this information, Alzrius. I always wondered what was stopping a 3rd party publishing the great Planescape setting. Perhaps this is part of the reason.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (May 11, 2004)

I would like to add that Elminister was an NPC of Ed Greenwood. He journeyed with the Knights of Myth Drannor, so he did actually gain levels and adventure. The Elminister from FRCS may be different from Ed's actual Elminister(since I've heard numerous things in Ed's own Forgotten Realms is different), so the published Elminister may be more powerful.


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## Alzrius (May 11, 2004)

Caspian Moon Prince said:
			
		

> the published Elminister may be more powerful.




And has been getting stronger for a while. He was a 26th level Wizard in 1E. A 29th level Wizard in 2E, and now he has all those supplementary class levels in 3E.


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## Ssyleia (May 11, 2004)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> And has been getting stronger for a while. He was a 26th level Wizard in 1E. A 29th level Wizard in 2E, and now he has all those supplementary class levels in 3E.




He's been getting those supplementary levels in response to the novels (notable Elminster: Making of a Mage) and I dimly remember seeing dual-class stats of Elminster after the release of that novel in 2E...

Ever since the publication in 1st Edition a lot of things have happened involving Elminster, such as his capture by the Malaugrym in the "Shadows" trilogy - so it is very well justified he got a couple of new levels...


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## Alzrius (May 11, 2004)

Ssyleia said:
			
		

> He's been getting those supplementary levels in response to the novels (notable Elminster: Making of a Mage) and I dimly remember seeing dual-class stats of Elminster after the release of that novel in 2E...
> 
> Ever since the publication in 1st Edition a lot of things have happened involving Elminster, such as his capture by the Malaugrym in the "Shadows" trilogy - so it is very well justified he got a couple of new levels...




I know, my last post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I guess I should have added a smiley.   

Obviously Elminster hasn't just recently gained those few cleric levels, for example; like many of the mechanical changes across the vary editions, his levels are considered retconned for the entirety of his development as a character.


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## Ssyleia (May 11, 2004)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I know, my last post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I guess I should have added a smiley.
> 
> Obviously Elminster hasn't just recently gained those few cleric levels, for example; like many of the mechanical changes across the vary editions, his levels are considered retconned for the entirety of his development as a character.




Don't catch me wrong either   

Whenever an important good guy has to die for dramatic purposes - chances are it's Elminster (whom even new players can relate to) - provided we are playing FR...


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## Dareoon Dalandrove (May 11, 2004)

I think that they should have a battle.  Get two players to take charge of them and fight it out post by post.


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## sparxmith (May 11, 2004)

*Elminster*

As it turns out Elminster, the Sage of Shadowdale, is more than a thousand years old.  And if you've read his adventures you'd see that he has gained all of his levels.  There was a period of time before he was a mage that he was a pickpocket, and, furthermore, he spent a period of time learning to be a fighter.  Azuth, the God of Mages, commanded that he not use his magic, that he learn to rely on himself.  In that time period, he killed a variety of thugs who'd taken over a town, journeyed across Faerun, and generally made a nuisance of himself to all the low-level baddies he could find.  

Beyond that, he's been apprenticed to a variety of high-level mages, including the Arch-mage of the Starym, one of the leading families of Myth Drannor, an Avatar of the Goddess Mystra when she was pretending to be mortal so that she might learn of Bane, and he's the "boyfriend" of the Simbul, whom the FRCS calls the one most likely to master arcane magic in the realms.  

He's also fought his way out of Hell.

Being a chosen of Mystra, he gets all sorts of benefits not available to Mordenkainen:  +10 inherent bonus to Constitution;  silverfire, a raw stream of arcane energy that will annihilate anything he aims it at; bonus spells; spell immunity (1 from each level) to  detect thoughts, disintegrate, evard's black tentacles, feeblemind, finger of death, fireball, magic missile, sunburst, temporal stasis; spell like abilities (all 1/day) dispel magic, lesser ironguard, see invisibility, shapechange, Simbuls synostodweomer, spider climb, teleport without error, thunderlance, true seeing.


All in all, I'd say that he could woop MD in a fight.  But that's just my opinion--I could be wrong.


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## Trainz (May 11, 2004)

Dareoon Dalandrove said:
			
		

> I think that they should have a battle. Get two players to take charge of them and fight it out post by post.



Funny. But that wouldn't mean anything. It might just mean that the guy playing the winner new the spell rules and intricacies better than the loser, regardless of which wizard he plays.

Anyways, it is clear that Waldorf is the strongest (remember that very old Dragon letter when a dude said his 100-levelish wizard completely destroyed greyhawk and killed Mordenkainen, so he wanted to know how many XP's this was worth, because he thought that he gained a few levels ? Waldorf Hysteria it was entitled IIRC...).



_edit: Arani gave me his real name: Waldorf (NOT Wulfgar)_


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## Trainz (May 11, 2004)

For the record, I'd like to take this moment to post an exerpt from the newsgroup rec.games.frp.dnd Faq. I know this has nothing to do with the ENworld Faq, but just thought I'd share...




> *B8: If X fought Y, who would win?*
> 
> 
> This type of question is most often found in the form "Enterprise vs. Death Star," or, more appropriately, "10th level fighter vs. 10th level mage," "Raistlin vs. Elminster," or "Driz'zt vs. Da Bears." (For da record, even wit' a mini-Ditka, Da Bears take it, 42-3; Da Bears let da elf have a last-second field goal so he don't feel so bad. Pass da brats, will ya?) Asking this type of question is also a sure-fire way to not make any friends among the long-time posters.
> ...



Interesting...


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## Arani Korden (May 11, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Anyways, it is clear that Wulfgar is the strongest (remember that very old Dragon letter when a dude said his 100-levelish wizard completely destroyed greyhawk and killed Mordenkainen, so he wanted to know how many XP's this was worth, because he thought that he gained a few levels ? Wulfgar Hysteria it was entitled IIRC...).




Waldorf.


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## Trainz (May 11, 2004)

Arani Korden said:
			
		

> Waldorf.



*YES !* Waldorf Hysteria.

Thanks Arani.

By Jove, you must be as old as I am !

And a quick GIS gave this:



> Dragon #149, p.5
> Letters: Waldorf hysteria (various)
> Responses to Waldorf destroying Greyhawk


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## dead (May 11, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> *YES !* Waldorf Hysteria.




Waldorf Hysteria wins!

End of thread.


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## Nightfall (May 11, 2004)

Mesos, this guy creates sorcerers. The best. It's cause of him Blessed of Mesos is so damn popular.  Believe me, in a fight with Mesos, no one else comes close.


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## the Jester (May 11, 2004)

dead said:
			
		

> Wow! What slow progression! D&D characters can go from 1st level to 20th level in less than a game year but it took Mordy 20+ years! I can only assume he was doing a lot of spell research during this time and, thus, we have his famous spells in the PHB.




Hey, most of that took place in 1st Edition, when it took a _lot_ longer to advance.


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## Calico_Jack73 (May 11, 2004)

sparxmith said:
			
		

> And if you've read his adventures you'd see that he has gained all of his levels.





			
				Caspian Moon Prince said:
			
		

> I would like to add that Elminister was an NPC of Ed Greenwood. He journeyed with the Knights of Myth Drannor, so he did actually gain levels and adventure. The Elminister from FRCS may be different from Ed's actual Elminister(since I've heard numerous things in Ed's own Forgotten Realms is different), so the published Elminister may be more powerful.




I personally don't agree.  NPC advancement isn't truly earned because it is up to the DM whether or not they are ever in any mortal danger.  They also can just _happen_ to have whatever spell or item is needed at any particular time.  No... I am in agreement that Elminster was/is just a toy/tool of Greenwood.  As a DM I could create an NPC that would whoop Elminster but it still proves nothing.  Mordenkainen was an honest-to-god *REAL* PC that earned his levels.  In a straight up duel sure Elminster would win, but what custom made, munchkined out NPC wouldn't win against a PC?


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## buzzard (May 11, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> I personally don't agree.  NPC advancement isn't truly earned because it is up to the DM whether or not they are ever in any mortal danger.  They also can just _happen_ to have whatever spell or item is needed at any particular time.  No... I am in agreement that Elminster was/is just a toy/tool of Greenwood.  As a DM I could create an NPC that would whoop Elminster but it still proves nothing.  Mordenkainen was an honest-to-god *REAL* PC that earned his levels.  In a straight up duel sure Elminster would win, but what custom made, munchkined out NPC wouldn't win against a PC?




While I do agree that Elminster is a DM construct, Mordenkainen isn't totally kosher as presented either. The Col has mentioned that he didn't get the the level described while he played the character. I think he only got to 18th or so (having CRS, I don't remember precisely). 

buzzard


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## Raven Crowking (May 11, 2004)

dead said:
			
		

> Well . . . in the Greyhawk book, "The Adventure Begins", it says that Mordenkainen was of "low level" around about circa 560 C.Y. as evidenced by his stats in the module "WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure". Now, I don't own this module so I can't tell you exactly what level he is in there but, if he was "low" level then and 27th level now in the current Greyhawk timeline of 592 C.Y., that means it took him 32 years to get from low level to epic level. Wow! What slow progression! D&D characters can go from 1st level to 20th level in less than a game year but it took Mordy 20+ years! I can only assume he was doing a lot of spell research during this time and, thus, we have his famous spells in the PHB.




Don't forget that Mordy was doing all of his adventuring under the original D&D and 1st edition AD&D rules, which required a lot more from characters in terms of XP to level up.  In old-style D&D, progress was slow and represented the growth of the character.  It wasn't always a video game.    

Daniel


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## diaglo (May 11, 2004)

they are just lucky they aren't characters in my campaign.

both would have died of natural aging by now.


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## Chasmodai (May 11, 2004)

Mordy would win for two reasons:

Reason 1: Gary Gygax.

Reason 2: Mordenkainen's Disjunction.


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