# Elven Chain vs. Mithral Shirt...  WTF?



## RigaMortus

Someone please tell me why Elven Chain is more expensive than a Mithral Shirt and what benefits it has to offer over a Mithral Shirt, if any?

Elven Chain
Medium Size creature speed is 30.
Small Size creature speed is 20.
20% Arcance Spell failure.
+4 Max Dex bonus.
-2 Armor Check penalty.
Cost is 4,150 GP

Mithral Shirt
Medium Size creature speed is 30.
Small Size creature speed is 20.
10% Arcance Spell failure.
+6 Max Dex bonus.
NO Armor Check penalty.
Cost is 1,100 GP

Please tell me I am missing something here?  Why is Elven Chain more expensive than a Mithral Shirt?  Is there erratta on this somewhere?


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## Crothian

Elven Chain = Mithral Chain Mail

Mithral Shirt = Mithral Chain Shirt

That's why.


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## RigaMortus

I had a feeling it might be something like that, but I couldn't find a good description on it.  For example, one that explained what armor bonus it had.


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## kreynolds

Hehe. No offense intended to anyone, but I found this thread very amusing. Reminds me of a few of my own oversights. Happens to the best of us.


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## Vinyafod

In the same manner... can anybody tell me the difference between a Dwarven Plate and a Mithral Plate?

Dwarven Plate (by the description a plate crafted out of Mithral)
- Full Plate
- AC: 8
- Max DEX : +3
- Armorchekpenalty: -4
- Spell failure: 25%
- Medium Armor
- Weight: 25 pounds
- Cost: 10.500 GP

Mithral Plate (by the rules presented in the DMG page 243)
- Full Plate
- AC: 8
- Max DEX : +3
- Armorcheckpenalty: -3
- Spell failure: 25%
- Medium Armor
- Weight: 50 pounds
- Cost: 10.500 GP


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## shilsen

Vinyafod said:
			
		

> *In the same manner... can anybody tell me the difference between a Dwarven Plate and a Mithral Plate?
> *




There isn't any difference. It's the same thing, just like Elven Chain is Mithral Chain Mail.


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## Vinyafod

If it is the same, how come that the Dwarven Plate has different stats listed?
As you probably have seen, I have listed the stats of a Dwarven Plate and the Stats of a Mithral Full Plate. However, they are not the same. 
The description of the Dwarven Plate says:



> This full plate is made of mithral.




It has no additional enchantments.

I'll just call the mithral rules from page 243, DMG a template for now. 
If I apply the *Mithral-template* to  a standard Full Plate, I do not recieve the same stats for it as a Dwarven Plate has. Still a Dwarven Plate, per it's description, is nothing else than a Mithral Full Plate.

The Dwarven Plate has an armorcheckpenalty of -4. Thats 2 lower than a standard full plate. The Mithral-template lowers the armorchepenalty by 3.
The Dwarven Plate weighs 25 pounds (half as much as a standard full plate). The Mithral-template doesn't affect weight of armors or shields. Only non-armor or non-shield items are halved in weight. (That doesn't really make sense but let's go strictly by the rules for this one).

Why is that so? Why two different set of stats for the same thing.

Edit: spelling


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## drnuncheon

Vinyafod said:
			
		

> * The Mithral-template doesn't affect weight of armors or shields.*




Actually, that's not true.  Weight of armor is 'one category less' - generally the actual weight of the armor is not considered because it's usually being worn, and the encumbrance value of wearing armor is (I believe) in most cases greater than the actual weight of the armor would indicate.

Looking at the example items, we see that mithril armor weighs somewhere from 1/2 (dwarven plate) to 1/3 (mithril shield) the weight of the base armor.

J


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## Vinyafod

By saying weight, I meant weight in pounds and not the armortype/ category.
There is no doubt that mithral armors are treated as one category lighter than standard armor, with light armors still being light. At least the ones primarily made out of metal. 

Still, I quote the DMG, page 243:


> Nonarmor or shield items made from mithral weigh half as much as the same item made from other metals.




So, shields and all items that are NOT armor weigh half as much. As a logical conclusion... mithral armor weighs just as much as standard armor. In the case of a full plate 50 pounds. 
It can make a difference if it weighs 50 or only 25 pounds. Imagine a not so strong cleric (STR 11). The armor weighing 50 pounds consumes almost 50% of his total carrying capacity. Give him a mace, a shield and some mundane, daily equipment and he is at his absolute maximum. If the armor only weighed 25 pounds it is much easier for him.

Now, I myself think that the rule from the DMG is not logical at all. Why should an armor be treated as one category lighter if it weighs just as much as a standard armor?  Why does the longsword weigh half as much but the full plate not? Both are made primarily of metal.

I just wonder why the *named* mithral full plate aka "Dwarven plate" is not the same as a mithral full plate.

After all, I know that I can just rerule it to my liking but I would like to be sure that there is no justified reason for the differences. Maybe I just missed something.

EDIT: spelling


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## Taluron

I thought dwarven plate was made with adamantine?


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## Brekki

Elven Chain = Mithral Chain Mail

Chain Mail = +5 Armor, +2 Max Dex, -5 Armor Check, 30 % Spell Failure  ... combined with :
Mithral = +2 Max Dex, +3 Armor Check (to max 0), -10% Spell Failure

= +5 Armor, +4 Max Dex, -2 Armor Check, 20% Spell Failure


Same goes for the Dwarven Plate, only the -4 Armor Check Penalty in DMG is an error, it should be -3.


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## Vinyafod

Brekki said:
			
		

> *Elven Chain = Mithral Chain Mail*




Except that:
Elven Chain weighs 20 pounds, a mithral chain mail weighs 40 pounds.
Mithral shirt weighs 10 pounds, a chainshirt made from mithral weighs 25 pounds.
Dwarven Plate weighs 25 pounds,  a mithral full plate 50 pounds.

An error as well or is there some reason behind that?


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## Thain

I've noticed these differences in the past, I just attributed it to the *named* Elven Chain and Dwarven Plate being made by superior craftsmen.

Thus, Mithral Plate is one thing, Master Work Mithral Plate another... Dwarven Plate, having been crafted to a point beyond masterwork; is so rare, so well made, and so beautiful that it is something else entirely.

After all, a base nonmagic set of Elf Chain or Dwarf Plate is considered a rare magic item. That means you shouldn't just be able to find them in any goblin cavern. In Low- to Mid-Magic worlds [PLUG]*cough* Krynn *cough* [/PLUG] they are the kind of thing I'd feel perfectly justified in not lettign my player have access to until 6-8th level, and magic verisons wouldn't show up until much later.

But, as always, YMMV


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## drnuncheon

Vinyafod said:
			
		

> *So, shields and all items that are NOT armor weigh half as much. As a logical conclusion... mithral armor weighs just as much as standard armor. In the case of a full plate 50 pounds.
> *




Ah, but that's where the logic is flawed.  If I say to you "a mithril mace weighs half as much" but I don't tell you that there is any change in weight in mithril armor, is it really that logical to assume that there is no change in weight?  Especially when I say that mithril armor is less encumbering?  And when I can show you several examples of mithril armor that do weigh less?

I think you're getting unnecessarily hung up on the fact that it said 'non-armor and shield items weigh half as much'.  The reason armor & shields aren't included in that statement is because they *don't*  all weigh half as much - thwy weigh somewhere between half and a third as much.

As for the "superior masterwork" idea, I'd be a lot more inclined to believe that if the prices for a mithril shirt or shield weren't the same ones as you got for adding the mithril price to the item in question. 

J


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## Vinyafod

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *
> If I say to you "a mithril mace weighs half as much" but I don't tell you that there is any change in weight in mithril armor, is it really that logical to assume that there is no change in weight?  *




You're correct. That wouldn't be logical at all, because you gave no more information than: "mithral maces weigh half as much."
The book on the other hand gives us the more information than just that. It says non-armor items and shields weigh half as much. They effectively say: all items except armor. Why would you say non-armor and shields if you meant metallic armor as well? 
If I told you "all non-green-colored cars are high quality products" you would probably (not only would but could as well) assume that all green colored cars are crappy. After all, why should I say *all non-green-colored* if I really meant all cars no matter the color? (no offense meant to drivers/ owners of green cars  )

Well, nevermind. Using common sense, it is best to go with the weights given by the example items. As I already said, it makes absolutely no sense why one item made primarily of metal has half the weight (longsword for instance) but the other (metallic armor) also made primarily from metal does not.

My concern was that I missed some passage/ rule/ whatever, that explained why the presented items have the given weights. I guess that is not the case. So all power to the 25 pound platemail


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## Dakhran the Dark

That's actually a logical fallacy, called denial of the antecedent:

All x are y.
It is not x.
Therefore, it is not y.

Filling in the blanks:

All non-armor items are half weight.
It's armor.
Therefore, it's not half weight.

Personally, I'd go with the armor being at least half weight, since the category is reduced to one less...


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## The Souljourner

I never understood that qualification... how can armor be a special case?  

Make a barrel out of mithral, it weighs half as much as an identical steel barrel.  Now bang both into the shape of a breastplate, and suddenly the weight of the mithral breastplate doubles... WTF?

In every campaign I've been in this has been ruled an error in the book and armor is given half weight as well.  It makes absolutely no sense otherwise.  

I think the Dwarven Plate and Elven Chain take into account the half weight as well, which is why dwarven plate weighs half as much as regular plate and elven chainmail weighs half as much as normal chainmail.

The rest of the differences are just errors.

-The Souljourner


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## StGabriel

Ahh, but psychology and linguistics are involved, not just logic. 

Don't get me wrong, logic is great and all, but a fair amount of the stuff we say isn't necessarily logical. 

For example, if my friend asks me to come watch them perform  in a concert and I say:
  
"I'll go tonight or tomorrow night." 
 
In most contexts it would be completely reasonable to assume that this meant that I would not go both nights.  This is despite the fact that the logical def'n of "or" would have no drothers with me doing exactly tha and still being truthful.  In this case, the or is impliclity an exclusive and it's just an idiosyncratic use of language. 
 
If I were to say, "Some of you will get prizes."  It would be fair to assume that not all of you wll, even though it would not be logically inconsistent if you all did.   
 
Given situations such as these, people will agree with my "reasonable" interpretations most of the time if tested.  This isn't because they're stupid, it's because our language is complicated and doesn't always map well to logic. 
 
In this case, it might very well be reasonable to read deeply into an exclusion, or not, it just depends on the context.

On a related note.  I was walking across a parking lot a while back.  I saw a sign that said: 
 
"Warning: icy and hazardous conditions exist." 
 
Of course I understood what it was supposed to mean.  I still laughed for a good half a minute though.  My GF thought I was nuts. *giggle* 
 
Anyhow . . . now that you think I'm nuts, I'll sign off. 
 
--- 
StGabriel, the Taoist saint.


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## Caliban

Armor is half weight just like everything else made out of mithril.

The examples of mithril armor are half weight, and that text in the mithril section is just pointing out that non-armor items are also half weight.   It's just not very clear about it.   (Besides, there is no logical reason why the mithril used to create the armor would suddenly double in weight at the point it switched from being a "non-armor" raw material into actual armor. )


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## StGabriel

Rather than editing again and exacerbating the problem, let me just apologize here for my bloated post.  I don't know why, but Opera (my web browser) or the forum itself are somehow conspiring to make my edits FULL of white space.

Sorry.

---
StGabriel, the Taoist saint.


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## Ferret

RigaMortus said:
			
		

> *Someone please tell me why Elven Chain is more expensive than a Mithral Shirt and what benefits it has to offer over a Mithral Shirt, if any?
> 
> Elven Chain
> Medium Size creature speed is 30.
> Small Size creature speed is 20.
> 20% Arcance Spell failure.
> +4 Max Dex bonus.
> -2 Armor Check penalty.
> Cost is 4,150 GP
> 
> Mithral Shirt
> Medium Size creature speed is 30.
> Small Size creature speed is 20.
> 10% Arcance Spell failure.
> +6 Max Dex bonus.
> NO Armor Check penalty.
> Cost is 1,100 GP
> 
> Please tell me I am missing something here?  Why is Elven Chain more expensive than a Mithral Shirt?  Is there erratta on this somewhere? *




I's elven, far better craftsmanship


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## Wolf72

Taluron said:
			
		

> *I thought dwarven plate was made with adamantine? *




nope, that would just make sense btw (IMO) ... and mithral plate would be Elven Plate ...

Low dex dwarves (oh wait, they have -2 cha) ... would love this stuff.  

hmmm: Dwarven Plate should be adamantine half-plate, and Elven plate should be mithral full plate ... or vice versa ... or ... I'm gonna just shut my trap now.

like Caliban said, all the examples of mithral are 1/2 weight ... the wording in the mithral category is just bad.  (Being the genius at math that I am, I do 1/2 weight like this ... 1/2 of 25 is 12.5 pounds ... a mithral buckler weighs 2.5 pounds ... etc ... )


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## Brekki

If you assume mithral armor weighs half as much as normal armor, just like all other mithral stuff, and see the armor check penalty from dwarven plate as a minor error, everything is ok


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## warhookdm

We had this discussion in-game just last week.  Part of the difference is the craftsmanship (but its poorly described).  Another part of the difference can be explained quite easily.  It is made by dwarves, who, as we all know, tend to have lower Dex scores than Elves.  As a result, they don't worry about flexibility as much as other craftsmen do.  This is why the armor has a lower max dex than plain mithril full plate.  (As DM, it also means that NONE of my PC's will waste time trying to find a dwarven armorsmith to make them a suit of Dwarven Plate.  Instead, they will attempt to acquire regular mithril Full Plate, or find a bunch of mithril, or some such.)


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## Wolf72

ya know what ... I think mithral half-plate would be a good idea for *Elven* armor.


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## rhammer2

Mithral breastplate is a better idea.



			
				Wolf72 said:
			
		

> *ya know what ... I think mithral half-plate would be a good idea for *Elven* armor. *


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## Fast Learner

A weapon like a sword is 95% metal.

Armor is both metal as well as a full suit of padded cloth and, likely, a full suit of leather backing, so the metal portion of th weight varies by type, probably from about 40% of the weight to 75% of the weight. Halve the weight of the metal and you won't get armor that weighs half as much since the padded cloth and leather don't change weight in the least.

They should still weigh less, however.


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## drnuncheon

Caliban said:
			
		

> *Armor is half weight just like everything else made out of mithril.
> 
> The examples of mithril armor are half weight*




Well, except where they aren't - which is what caused this discussion in the first place.  A large mithril shield is 5 lbs, not half weight (7.5 lbs).  A mithril shirt is 10 lbs, not 12.5 lbs.

J


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## Aaron2

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, except where they aren't - which is what caused this discussion in the first place.  A large mithril shield is 5 lbs, not half weight (7.5 lbs).  A mithril shirt is 10 lbs, not 12.5 lbs.
> 
> J *




They're rounding down to the nearest 5 lbs. No biggie.


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## FlimFlam

Does this mean you can have Mithril Hide Armor, Mithril Padded Armor and Mithril Leather Armor?


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## Crothian

FlimFlam said:
			
		

> *Does this mean you can have Mithril Hide Armor, Mithril Padded Armor and Mithril Leather Armor? *




The armor has to be at least mostly metal for Mithral to have any effect on it.


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