# Aasimar are now . . . Devas.



## JPL (Sep 10, 2008)

From the Wizard's boards, re:  the FR Player's Guide:

"Official word: aasimars have been renamed as 'Devas.' In the Realms at least, they are perpetually reincarnated after they die."

Yay! Player's Guide to the Realms has shipped.. Should have it monday or tuesday. - Page 3 - Wizards Community

Interesting.  I wonder what the game mechanics will be like?  I guess we'll find out in the PHBII.


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## Aristotle (Sep 10, 2008)

Not a change for the better as far as the name goes. I have always loved aasimar though, so I'm happy to be getting them. They'll continue to be known as aasimar in my campaign.


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## Mallus (Sep 10, 2008)

I like using words from real mythology and religion in D&D, so I support the change. Besides, whenever I read the word 'deva' I start hearing the Beatles "Across the Universe" playing in my head, which is always a good thing...


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## Cam Banks (Sep 10, 2008)

I think it's a perfectly fine name for the race. It certainly jibes with their whole eladrin = magical fey elves change, and indicates that powerful devas, much like powerful eladrin, are more like the celestial beings of older editions.

This also means they're the fifth race in the PHB: gnomes, goliaths, half-orcs, shifters, and devas.

Cheers,
Cam


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## Wormwood (Sep 10, 2008)

Aaasimar to Deva?

Upgrade.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 10, 2008)

I dig it. No more "sucks to your ass-mar" jokes.


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## JPL (Sep 10, 2008)

Cam Banks said:


> I think it's a perfectly fine name for the race. It certainly jibes with their whole eladrin = magical fey elves change, and indicates that powerful devas, much like powerful eladrin, are more like the celestial beings of older editions.




Maybe that's tied into the cycle of reincarnation, too --- you move up the hierarchy as you learn and evolve.

So between the reincarnation and the name "deva" our aasimar suddenly seem rather Hindu in flavor.  I like it.  It brings a different cultural flavor to the game, and it's more interesting that just "grampa was an angel!"


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## Cam Banks (Sep 10, 2008)

And if the folks at WotC aren't pronouncing this word "dey-vuh" they should be.

Cheers,
Cam


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 10, 2008)

Meh. 4E FR continues failing to impress me...











Hey, someone had to say it. 

Okay, I admit it, I like it.


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## Jack99 (Sep 10, 2008)

I always strongly disliked "Aasimar". Deva is definitely an upgrade.


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## Kobold Avenger (Sep 10, 2008)

Aasimar came from Aasimon.  

Though I always suspected that if they changed the names of Aasimar, it would be to Nephilim, or to the names of a previously existing type of Celestial.  Looks like it's the latter.


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## WhatGravitas (Sep 10, 2008)

I like that change - it's cool to see how they dig out all these interesting names in the "D&D mythology" (like eladrin, deva) that didn't get so much use and reassign it to more prominent things!

I like that!

Cheers, LT


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## Fifth Element (Sep 10, 2008)

Aristotle said:


> They'll continue to be known as aasimar in my campaign.



Wait, you can do that? I've heard that once WotC forces new fluff on you, it just like totally ruins your game.


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## CleverNickName (Sep 10, 2008)

A rose by any other name, is still not part of my campaign.    We haven't used any of the mixed-blood races in half a decade.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 10, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> I like that change - it's cool to see how they dig out all these interesting names in the "D&D mythology" (like eladrin, deva) that didn't get so much use and reassign it to more prominent things!




And I like how they do it in such a way that they can keep the old versions around, like how powerful eladrin nobles are the Ghaele of Winter and such, while still allowing the race to be playable.


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## Keefe the Thief (Sep 10, 2008)

Deva, thank god. No more "can i play that charbooster race with the two a, please?"


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## Rechan (Sep 10, 2008)

Deva is a much better sounding word than ass-mar. 

I am glad to see they're coming down the pike, too. But then, I don't ascribe to the "My grandfather was an angel" theory either.


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## DogBackward (Sep 10, 2008)

Here's hoping they kept +Wis. and +Cha. Mystic Paladins are my favorite, and having a race with the primary and secondary stats boosted would be awesome. Plus, the Aasimar always were paladin/cleric focused.


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## Shemeska (Sep 10, 2008)

More pointless flavor changes, and since it's from an FR source, yet another retcon for the Realms. *sigh*


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## Dausuul (Sep 10, 2008)

Sweet.  I like it.  I always hated "aasimar."

Although I suppose I might feel differently if I were Hindu.


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## JPL (Sep 10, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> More pointless flavor changes, and since it's from an FR source, yet another retcon for the Realms. *sigh*




The "point," of course, was to replace one idea with a better idea.  Whether it worked or not remains to be seen, since we're probably only talking about a few lines in a book none of us have read yet.

I'm not sure that the old-model aasimar really fit in the new cosmology, since angels have been so dramatically reimagined.  But establishing that they reincarnate . . . that's interesting, isn't it?  Is there any other race in 4th Edition that routinely reincarnates?  This gives devas a perhaps unique niche that aasimar just didn't have.


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## Mercule (Sep 10, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> More pointless flavor changes, and since it's from an FR source, yet another retcon for the Realms. *sigh*



Or, it's just another name for aasimar and always has been.  Kinda like even some in LotR called hobbits "halflings".


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## Obryn (Sep 10, 2008)

Do I have to have an opinion on this?  I'm leaning towards "OK, sure."

I mean, if I had to pick a side, I guess I'm good with it.  Aasimar always was a pretty ridiculous name.

-O


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 10, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> More pointless flavor changes, and since it's from an FR source, yet another retcon for the Realms. *sigh*




It seems as if you're trying best to fulfill your user title.  I wonder a little why you still bother reading WotC articles? Do you hope for a surprise? Do you like your worries/predictions come true? 

Probably better not to think too much about it... Everybody does his own thing...


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## The Little Raven (Sep 10, 2008)

Mercule said:


> Or, it's just another name for aasimar and always has been.  Kinda like even some in LotR called hobbits "halflings".




Or, it's just what they call them now, since aasimar was, apparently, a Mulhorand/Unther name, and deva has risen to take it's place as the common name, since Mulhorand and Unther bit the big one.


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## Kishin (Sep 10, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> It seems as if you're trying best to fulfill your user title.  I wonder a little why you still bother reading WotC articles? Do you hope for a surprise? Do you like your worries/predictions come true?
> 
> Probably better not to think too much about it... Everybody does his own thing...




Never underestimate the overpowering human desire to complain about something on the internet. ;p

I think I like Deva better than Aasimar, myself. I enjoy the word, and old Devas didn't really get much mileage in non Planescape settings. At least, from the campaigns I've encountered over the years.


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## GnomeWorks (Sep 10, 2008)

Aasimar was a neat name, if a little goofy.

Deva... I don't know if I like it, but it's workable. Certainly a lot better than some of the other names WotC has thrown around as of late.

Though thinking about it, aasimar just sounds like it was made to look and sound "exotic" simply for the sake of being such; deva sounds like a much more reasonable word for celestial folk, something that "normal people" would use.

Still not sure if I like it, but it sounds a bit more reasonable.


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## Dausuul (Sep 10, 2008)

GnomeWorks said:


> Aasimar was a neat name, if a little goofy.
> 
> Deva... I don't know if I like it, but it's workable. Certainly a lot better than some of the other names WotC has thrown around as of late.
> 
> ...




To me, "aasimar" carries a lot of Planescape connotations.  It's very much a Planescape sort of name.  Since I never liked Planescape, I'm not sorry to see it go.  "Deva" has more of an old-school, First Edition, before-2E-messed-everything-up-by-pandering-to-the-D&D-is-Satanism-crowd feel.


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## Nifft (Sep 10, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:


> Aasimar came from Aasimon.



 What was the origin of Aasimon, or did it come from D&D?

I can't find much about the word "aasimon" that isn't D&D-derived.

Cheers, -- N


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## Vael (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm indifferent. Both names are problematic ... I can just see someone asking to play a Diva, which I know is the wrong way to say it, but it amuses me.


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## Klaus (Sep 10, 2008)

I don't like it purely based on the fact that "deva" is waaaa(...)aaaay too similar to "devil" (being the origin of the word "devil" IRL).

A while back I submit an article idea to Dragon magazine on the "we used to be the aasimar" race, and there I gave them the name "hoarlings" ("from the heights", just like tieflings is "from the depths").


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 10, 2008)

Klaus said:


> I don't like it purely based on the fact that "deva" is waaaa(...)aaaay too similar to "devil" (being the origin of the word "devil" IRL).
> 
> A while back I submit an article idea to Dragon magazine on the "we used to be the aasimar" race, and there I gave them the name "hoarlings" ("from the heights", just like tieflings is "from the depths").



Too much like hordelings.


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## Starbuck_II (Sep 10, 2008)

CleverNickName said:


> A rose by any other name, is still not part of my campaign.  We haven't used any of the mixed-blood races in half a decade.



 Going by the way Teiflings are no longer mixed blooded (like in 3.5) but cursed humans; it seems likely Aasimar are just humans cursed to reincarnate never to fully reach the celestial planes and glory that comes with it.

The Good "Cursed" race. I can see it now happy Emos! A Contradiction in play.
Well played Wotc, well played.


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## Scribble (Sep 10, 2008)

Klaus said:


> I don't like it purely based on the fact that "deva" is waaaa(...)aaaay too similar to "devil" (being the origin of the word "devil" IRL).
> 
> A while back I submit an article idea to Dragon magazine on the "we used to be the aasimar" race, and there I gave them the name "hoarlings" ("from the heights", just like tieflings is "from the depths").





man... if people made fun of the word aasimar... hoarling would be funny overload.


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 10, 2008)

I wonder if they'll continue to be like Aasimar fluff wise, or if they'll be hit over the head with the EMOGOTH stick like Tieflings were.  After all, in one of the more headache inducing articles on Races and Classes, it was mentioned that "Good guys are lame, rebellious teenagers are AWESOME, lets shove more crappy angst into this system."


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## Dausuul (Sep 10, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Too much like hordelings.




Mmmm, hordelings.  I always loved those little guys.  Wonder if we can get them in MM2?  For a race whose _metier _is "swarm of rampaging destroyers," demons are sorely lacking in the minion department.


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## DaveMage (Sep 10, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> More pointless flavor changes, and since it's from an FR source, yet another retcon for the Realms. *sigh*





No, no - it's a good thing. 

New game = new terms.

I think it better defines 4E as its own thing.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 10, 2008)

Eh. I was Okay with Aasimar, even if it wasn't great. I was always careful to pronounce it "ae-sim-ahr" to avoid ass jokes. Deva I don't like though. All I can think of is "diva." Which is bad. For me. IMC. YMMV.

_Yeah ..._

Anywho, now I don't know what to call them. Nephilim is too Biblical, and um, sorry Claudio but "Hoarlings" makes me think of packs of dirty street children. Maybe I'll just retcon me some Forgotten Realms history and name them after come forgotten Empire from which they are supposedly descended.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 10, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> No, no - it's a good thing.
> 
> New game = new terms.
> 
> I think it better defines 4E as its own thing.



New game sure, but changing an existing setting more than necessary is intrusive. I was not a fan of using "Eladrin" in FR when we could simply call them Gold or Grey Elves.


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## WhatGravitas (Sep 10, 2008)

Klaus said:


> A while back I submit an article idea to Dragon magazine on the "we used to be the aasimar" race, and there I gave them the name "hoarlings" ("from the heights", just like tieflings is "from the depths").



How do you get "hoar" from "height"? 

Cheers, LT.


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## Mallus (Sep 10, 2008)

Klaus said:


> I don't like it purely based on the fact that "deva" is waaaa(...)aaaay too similar to "devil" (being the origin of the word "devil" IRL).



I don't think that's right. Deva is a Hindu word, isn't it?


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## WhatGravitas (Sep 10, 2008)

Mallus said:


> I don't think that's right. Deva is a Hindu word, isn't it?



According to Wikipedia (which isn't always right, of course), _deva_ is a cognate of the latin _deus_, which, in turn, is the origin of _divine_ and _deity_.

Cheers, LT.


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## frankthedm (Sep 10, 2008)

_Any_ name is better than one that could be even remotely read as "ass smear".


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## Mallus (Sep 10, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> According to Wikipedia (which isn't always right, of course), _deva_ is a cognate of the latin _deus_, which, in turn, is the origin of _divine_ and _deity_.



Wikipedia also says this: (From Sanskrit देव (devá), “‘deity, god’”).


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## Klaus (Sep 10, 2008)

Mallus said:


> I don't think that's right. Deva is a Hindu word, isn't it?



Since most of the western languages have Indo-European origins, it's perfectly right.

Deva -> Devil
Daemon -> Demon

etc.


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## Klaus (Sep 10, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> How do you get "hoar" from "height"?
> 
> Cheers, LT.



German.

Y'know, "hoary heights".

And now that I say it out loud, yes, it does sound like w**relings...

Aw, crap.


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## WhatGravitas (Sep 10, 2008)

Klaus said:


> German.



Uhm... sorry to nitpick, but there is no word like "hoar" in German. The word for "high" is "hoch" and for "heights" is "Höhen"! 

Cheers, LT


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 10, 2008)

Klaus said:


> Since most of the western languages have Indo-European origins, it's perfectly right.
> 
> Deva -> Devil
> Daemon -> Demon
> ...




Actually, not in the case, my friend.

"Devil" traces its origin back to the Latin "diabolus," and before that to the Greek "diabolos." Whereas "deva" comes from the Sanskrit.

They happen to be similar sounding, but they don't actually come from the same root.


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## catsclaw227 (Sep 10, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> I wonder if they'll continue to be like Aasimar fluff wise, or if they'll be hit over the head with the EMOGOTH stick like Tieflings were.  After all, in one of the more headache inducing articles on Races and Classes, it was mentioned that "Good guys are lame, rebellious teenagers are AWESOME, lets shove more crappy angst into this system."



Interesting.  I am looking for your quote from the book, but I can't find it.  Which article was this from?

Or is this a quote, that actually isn't a quote?


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 10, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Interesting.  I am looking for your quote from the book, but I can't find it.  Which article was this from?
> 
> Or is this a quote, that actually isn't a quote?




This is the internet. A "quote" is "Something I wish they'd said so I can argue against it, so I'm going to argue against it anyway."


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 10, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Interesting.  I am looking for your quote from the book, but I can't find it.  Which article was this from?
> 
> Or is this a quote, that actually isn't a quote?




Paraphrased.  Look under the Tieflings, in which they say Aasimar are lame because they're good guys, and rebellious teenagers are awesome.  Don't have Races and Classes with me at this moment, when I get back to my room I'll grab it and give the full quotes for you if you want.


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## CleverNickName (Sep 10, 2008)

Starbuck_II said:


> Going by the way Teiflings are no longer mixed blooded (like in 3.5) but cursed humans; it seems likely Aasimar are just humans cursed to reincarnate never to fully reach the celestial planes and glory that comes with it.



Poe-tay-toe, poe-tah-toe.  (shrug)  There is more than one way to 'mix' a race, whether it be by combining genetics, or culture, or skin grafting...each is perfectly viable depending on your game world and play style.

It's just not my bag.


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## JPL (Sep 10, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> After all, in one of the more headache inducing articles on Races and Classes, it was mentioned that "Good guys are lame, rebellious teenagers are AWESOME, lets shove more crappy angst into this system."




Personally, I wish WotC would start emphasizing races that have the personality traits of hardworking thirtysomething nerds with families and adult responsibilities.  Maybe some kind of dwarf, but instead of drinking mead and killing orcs, they worry about their aging parents and mortgage payments and quote "Star Trek: The Next Generation" when they email their other nerd friends.


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## El Mahdi (Sep 10, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> . . ."Devil" traces its origin back to the Latin "diabolus," and before that to the Greek "diabolos." Whereas "deva" comes from the Sanskrit.
> 
> They happen to be similar sounding, but they don't actually come from the same root.




Spot on. Some of the _religious_ concepts and ideas have similiar roots, but the _language_ roots and etymology don't.

The ancient Vedic religion was a precursor of both Hinduism and Zoroastrianism, and both of those religions influenced eachother. Zoroastrianism had a strong influence on western religious thinking, and was based on Indo-European language. But the language roots (Sanskrit and Indo-European) don't cross.


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## catsclaw227 (Sep 10, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Paraphrased.



Oh, OK.  I get it.  Most professors I know don't refer to an article, use quotes, and then call it paraphrasing when someone questions them about it, so that is what threw me off.

I stand corrected.



ProfessorCirno said:


> Look under the Tieflings, in which they say Aasimar are lame because they're good guys, and rebellious teenagers are awesome.  Don't have Races and Classes with me at this moment, when I get back to my room I'll grab it and give the full quotes for you if you want.



Yea, but see...  I think I am reading the right essay (It's Good to Be Bad, by James Wyatt) and I don't get anything like your paraphrase from it.



			
				ProfessorCirno said:
			
		

> "Good guys are lame, rebellious teenagers are AWESOME, lets shove more crappy angst into this system."



When they describe rebellious and the attire of a tiefling, I get reminiscences of James Dean type rebellion, mixed in with some punk.  Nothing emo about it, actually.  I am looking for the "Good guys are lame" paraphrase.  Can't find it.  Nor the references to "lets shove more crappy angst into this system" you are paraphrasing.

Did we read the same book?

/threadjack


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## Rechan (Sep 10, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> When they describe rebellious and the attire of a tiefling, I get reminiscences of James Dean type rebellion, mixed in with some punk.



Aye. That's my view of Tieflings - the original Hell's Angels. 

I think it's cool they went with something Hindu-ish. I think D&D would benefit from stealing a few more things from non-European mythology.

All I want to know is: WHEN DO WE GET THEM?


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## Shemeska (Sep 10, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> New game sure, but changing an existing setting more than necessary is intrusive.




Exactly. Whimsical changes to things are fine and dandy for a completely different setting like the default PoL for 4e, but it rapidly becomes annoying when it's forced onto settings already with their own terms or conceptions of the same thing with decades of development using them.


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## Miyaa (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm getting an image of a female Deva looking at a demon and saying, "Oh, no you don't, hun," while pimping out in her latest Prada chainmail evening wear, with high-heel shoes that can dish out damage the equvalent of a punching dagger.

(And maybe I'm sexists, but I'd like to see more female Paladins questing for a good sale on clothings. Really.)


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 10, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Oh, OK.  I get it.  Most professors I know don't refer to an article, use quotes, and then call it paraphrasing when someone questions them about it, so that is what threw me off.
> 
> I stand corrected.




Eh, I'm a professor in laser.  My research doesn't require lots of quotations and such.  Plus the committes here in Gensokyo are rather light on that sort of thing.

</internet persona>




> Yea, but see...  I think I am reading the right essay (It's Good to Be Bad, by James Wyatt) and I don't get anything like your paraphrase from it.
> 
> 
> When they describe rebellious and the attire of a tiefling, I get reminiscences of James Dean type rebellion, mixed in with some punk.  Nothing emo about it, actually.  I am looking for the "Good guys are lame" paraphrase.  Can't find it.  Nor the references to "lets shove more crappy angst into this system" you are paraphrasing.
> ...





It specifically talks about the Aasimar being lame and "goody two shoes."  The other quote was "I'll take fire and brimstone over rainbows and sunshine anyday."  Or rather, something along those lines again, though I think that's mostly correct.  In the end, I was really dismayed at this idea of good guys having to be "goody two shoes," which was repeated later in either the Aasimar or the paladin section (I forget which).  It's really my biggest problem with 4e fluff - they forget it's no longer the 90's, so GRIM AND GRITTY isn't - and shouldn't - be in vogue anymore.  A lawful good Aasimar paladin smiting evil isn't any less cool as a tiefling trying to wrestle with some ambiguously dark and sordid past, yet that's exactly what we're told in the tiefling section - good guys are lame, angst and FIGHTING YOUR INNER DARKNESS is awesome.

As for Tieflings being the James Dean type and not the angsty teenager, unfortunately, Races and Classes VERY SPECIFICALLY talks about how giving tieflings angst is a great idea.  And while angst certainly has had many meanings in hte past, nowadays it's been fairly regulated to just beig used by and towards teenagers.  It also draws _positive_ parallels to Drizzt.  Positive in that the person who wrote it thought "Drizzt is awesome, we should connect him to tieflings!"

Ugh.


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## Nymrohd (Sep 11, 2008)

Well the Core books describe the PoL setting, not 2E Planescape. And honestly Planescape terms should always stay in Planescape since elsewhere they don't really mean much. A new simpler cosmology that can be grasped by new players and used easily was needed and taking advantage of your own IP to fit a new product is good sense.
I am not thrilled by the new Deva name though I can fully understand that the former just did not belong in a world that most fans still confuse one of the older base classes with a cosmetics product. They will still be aasimar on my planescape campaigns ofc.


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## Miyaa (Sep 11, 2008)

Well, considering how much of the races are steeped into cardboard sterotyping, how could you not get away from the notion that good Tieflings are more or less Chaotic good to Chaotic Neutral and Devas are more or less Lawful Good? Even though CG and CN aren't in the alignment panorama, it's implied by the general characteristics of a tiefling.


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## Scribble (Sep 11, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> It's really my biggest problem with 4e fluff - they forget it's no longer the 90's, so GRIM AND GRITTY isn't - and shouldn't - be in vogue anymore.  A lawful good Aasimar paladin smiting evil isn't any less cool as a tiefling trying to wrestle with some ambiguously dark and sordid past, yet that's exactly what we're told in the tiefling section - good guys are lame, angst and FIGHTING YOUR INNER DARKNESS is awesome.




The Dark Knight was a pretty popular flick. Wolverine still seems to eb the most popular X-Man... 

Most of the chracters on LOST are struggling with inner "darkness" of some sort, and it's a pretty popular show. (In fact propabably the most popular character- Sawyer, is a total angst ladden, I'm a bad guy doing good character.) Even the guy who started out looking like the Goody Goody I'm a doctor that always does the right thing, turns out to have had some serious flaws.

Then there's that prison break show. or that 24 show... or even House. That guys got some angst!

Struggling with inner turmoil isn't out of style, nor will it ever be in my opinion. Too many story opportunities for characters.


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## Staffan (Sep 11, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Too much like hordelings.



Or the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 11, 2008)

Staffan said:


> Or the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth.




Yeah, that would be Strange.


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## Scribble (Sep 11, 2008)

Also on the angsty note... I think most people identify more with Angsty characters because just about all of us have had moments in our lives we're not particularily proud of. Even Jesus had his "screw em all" moment, and his "I'm not the guy for this" moment.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 11, 2008)

Devas works for them. Old-school devas were just "tanar'ri-ized angels," anyway, so making those protector spirits of old actual Angels and giving these guys the name is a good thing.

I'm also a huge fan of the reincarnation angle. I'm looking forward to these guys, and to the genasi. I think they'll both benefit a lot from 4e's "not just filling in the gaps" approach. "Aasimar" is a clunky name, whichever way you slice it.

However, I've gotta re-assert my disappointment in the tieflings. "Wangst" vs. "Poseur Badass" battles aside, the old tieflings had an interesting background in being the outcasts of a planar society that accepted everyone, calling in echoes of class divisions that really made Sigil sing with some Olde London kind of flavor. I wish they would've kept the "lower-class exile bastard-child orphan-on-the-streets" angle, instead of going with the old cheesecake cliche of a fallen empire of decadence. 

Fortunately, the rest of the planetouched have always been a tad two-dimensional, so it'll be hard not to make 'em stronger with more attention given to them. Old school tieflings FTW, though.


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## Klaus (Sep 11, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> Uhm... sorry to nitpick, but there is no word like "hoar" in German. The word for "high" is "hoch" and for "heights" is "Höhen"!
> 
> Cheers, LT



I know. And there's to "tief" for "depth", but rather "teufel". It was an anglicisation. 

But now I wish I could have named them dioskouroi...


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## Klaus (Sep 11, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Yeah, that would be Strange.



Up next, the new god of the beholders: Agamotto!


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 11, 2008)

I like the name "Devas."  It's great, and true to D&D's sources.  I hope they get a +2 Wis, +2 Cha as well.  They should be good with classes having the divine power source IMO.

I like the reincarnation angle as well.  I suspect that when they reincarnate, their soul is the same but their personality is different.  They probably will get a feat that lets them tap into the memories of their past lives, getting bonuses to skills and the like.  Actually, Jack of All Trades would be a great feat for these guys, thematically - they get the skill bonus not from aptitude necessarily, but from ancient, nearly forgotten memories    .

I still hope they link the devas to the angels that remained loyal to the god slain by Asmodeus.  Perhaps these angelic souls merged with devout humans, commingling their essences and bestowing a form of angelic immortality to the human souls.  I like the "curse" idea as well - they are so tantalizingly close to the Astral Realms - they see it in their dreams - but they can never quite go back.

I remember reading that the 4e Manual of the Planes will have introduce a new monster with a basic writeup on how to play the monster as a PC, much like what the MM has.  I suspect that this will be the first place the Deva is introduced - it'll be fully fleshed out in PHB2.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 11, 2008)

Could be worse, could have been Devo.


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## Scribble (Sep 11, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:


> Could be worse, could have been Devo.




bonus weapon proficiency... whip?


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## Sonny (Sep 11, 2008)

Jonathan Moyer said:


> I like the reincarnation angle as well.  I suspect that when they reincarnate, their soul is the same but their personality is different.



Why does that make me think of the words "Time Lord"


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## Sonny (Sep 11, 2008)

Scribble said:


> bonus weapon proficiency... whip?




Also, every time a Devo reincarnates, it'll be into  a lower life form.








Edit: too many to's (or was it two's?)


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 11, 2008)

Sonny said:


> Why does that make me think of the words "Time Lord"




Who?


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## The Little Raven (Sep 11, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> It specifically talks about the Aasimar being lame and "goody two shoes."




No, it doesn't. It specifically says "I won't lie: making Good-associated creatures as exciting as their Evil-curious counterparts is a challenge."

And that's true, because all-good-all-the-time characters are boring, like Faramir from LotR (which is why Peter Jackson changed him to be tempted, to give him some depth and character growth). So, making Good-associated characters without falling into the all-good-all-day trap is a challenge.



> A lawful good Aasimar paladin smiting evil isn't any less cool as a tiefling trying to wrestle with some ambiguously dark and sordid past, yet that's exactly what we're told in the tiefling section - good guys are lame, angst and FIGHTING YOUR INNER DARKNESS is awesome.




We're not told anything about good guys at all in the Tiefling section. The only time that Good-associated challenges are mentioned is in the Celestial section, which never once calls them lame or anything of the sort, as I pointed out above.

And they cite tieflings as an opportunity to express your dark side, not suppress it: "It's a chance to give expression to our dark sides, the parts of our own personalities that we suppress for the sake of getting along in society."



> As for Tieflings being the James Dean type and not the angsty teenager, unfortunately, Races and Classes VERY SPECIFICALLY talks about how giving tieflings angst is a great idea.




No, it talks about how they have angst because of their corrupted heritage ("Their infernal heritage gives them plenty of angst and an excuse to "get medieval" whenever the mood suits them."). In fact, it talks explicitly about them overcoming the weight of heritage and stereotypes to become true heroes.



> It also draws _positive_ parallels to Drizzt.




Yeah, a person born to a corrupt heritage who overcomes it to become a true hero. Is there a problem with that comparison, or is this just a kneejerk anti-Drizzt reaction?



			
				Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> This is the internet. A "quote" is "Something I wish they'd said so I can argue against it, so I'm going to argue against it anyway."




And "paraphrasing" means "Summarizing what I wish they said, so I can argue against it."


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## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> But the language roots (Sanskrit and Indo-European) don't cross.




I was reading through this thread and I noticed this post.  FYI, Sanskrit is a Indo-European language.


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## Oni (Sep 11, 2008)

I think I'm in the minority, but I like aasimar better.  

That said it doesn't make one whit of difference.  I'll just file it right in beside the new look for tieflings in 4E under easily changed non-issues.


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## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2008)

Personally, I like the new name, since I never liked the term "aasimar" (though, as others have pointed out, it is still kind of around, at least in the Forgotten Realms) and its not like the current edition's angels are anything like the 2e/3e aasimon.  Actually, if Devas are the somewhat mortal (I'm intrigued by the reincarnation angle) descendents of 4e angels, then they can easily dump the goody two-shoes baggage that is commonly associated with the race.


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## Arashi Ravenblade (Sep 11, 2008)

Yay! More lame Lore changes.
I Understand the whole spellplague thing and the changes based on the passage of time, but why totally change all the lore?
Aasimar are Aasimar totally seperate from Deva, unless the ancestor that allowed for the Aasimar was a Deva. 
Man this is so dumb. 

I cant wait to see how WOTC screws up Eberron with Lore changes. (Sarcasm).


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 11, 2008)

Now that I'm back home, let's review some of these bits from Races and Classes.

"Tieflings reappeared in the 3rd Edition Monster Manual as one of the "plane-touched," inexorably bound to their do-gooder cousins, the aasimar.  Forgive my bias, but I'll take horns and brimstone over sunshine and perfection any day.  Sometimes it just doesn't pay to be the super good guy."

It's hard not to see that as "Good guys?  Lame.  Do-gooders.  Sunshine and perfection.  Huh."

Next, let's look at the bit about Tieflings being rebellious.  Are they the molotov cocktail rebellious types, the ones who sneer at police and do whatever they want, or are they angsting teenagers who try so desperately to "not conform" by just dressing up weird and doing little else?

"Tieflings appeal to the rebel in us all - the part that doesn't want to conform to social norms.  Like rebellious teenagers, they express their nonconformity in blatant ways, from their hairstyles to their wardrobes.  Even more blatantly, their bodies reflect their fiendish heritage.  When you look at a tiefling, you see some trace, at least, of an incarnationo of evil.  What could be more rebellious?"

Again, it's kinda hard to get anything out of this BUT "They dress funny because NOBODY UNDERSTANDS THEM."  It says nothing about them actually BEING rebellious, just that they _dress_ that way.  Oh man, HARDCORE!

How about the angst though?  Well, yes, as Mourn stated, the quote goes "Their infernal heritage gives them plenty of angst and an excuse to "get medieval" whenever the mood suits them."  Hey, that sounds suspiciously like that Chaotic Neutral stereotype _nobody liked_, only now they added ANGST to it.  ANGST in capital letters because I'M A DEMON AAAANGST.

Here's the crux of my issue: Making good-aligned protagonists isn't less cool then evil ones.  Nor is it difficult to make them cool.  Again, what I'm seeing is this throwback from the 90's, where only GRIM ANTI-HEROES are cool.  And while yes, Wolverine is mighty popular, here's the problem: So was Disaster Movie.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 11, 2008)

Arashai Ravenblade said:
			
		

> I Understand the whole spellplague thing and the changes based on the passage of time, but why totally change all the lore?
> Aasimar are Aasimar totally seperate from Deva, unless the ancestor that allowed for the Aasimar was a Deva.
> Man this is so dumb.




Name and lore changes probably should be expected by this point.  4e doesn't give a twig about what's come before with regards to that, and this has been shown consistently. 



			
				Prof. Cirno said:
			
		

> Here's the crux of my issue: Making good-aligned protagonists isn't less cool then evil ones. Nor is it difficult to make them cool. Again, what I'm seeing is this throwback from the 90's, where only GRIM ANTI-HEROES are cool. And while yes, Wolverine is mighty popular, here's the problem: So was Disaster Movie.




Obviously, one or more of the 4e designers has a boner for goth stereotypes and thinks it'll appeal to today's _My Chemical Romance_ scenesters. They would've made the Shadar-Kai a PC race if they could.


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## Nifft (Sep 11, 2008)

Klaus said:


> Y'know, "hoary heights".



 "Hoary" just means "grey or white" in that context. So "hoary heights" would be a poetic way of saying "up in the snowy part".

(In general, it means grey or white due to age.)

Cheers, -- N


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## El Mahdi (Sep 11, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> I was reading through this thread and I noticed this post. FYI, Sanskrit is a Indo-European language.




Oops.  Okay.  I still think Ari was right though that those particular words didn't have direct roots.  The religious concepts got shared a bit from Zoroastiranism to Hinduism (and vice-versa) and thereby influenced western religious traditions, but those words didn't link.


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## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> Oops.  Okay.  I still think Ari was right though that those particular words didn't have direct roots.  The religious concepts got shared a bit from Zoroastiranism to Hinduism (and vice-versa) and thereby influenced western religious traditions, but those words didn't link.




He's correct, devil and deva don't have direct roots.  In fact, deva is a descendent of the same word that gave us the Latin deus.


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## cangrejoide (Sep 11, 2008)

Meh, every edition has brought name changes.

This is yet another pointless nerdraged theme to rant to.

I wonder what tomorrow will bring.


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## Wormwood (Sep 11, 2008)

cangrejoide said:


> I wonder what tomorrow will bring.



I shudder to think.


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## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2008)

Well, WoTC has got to be close to running out of planar monsters/races to change or get rid of, so hopefully, this will subside.


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## Ravilah (Sep 11, 2008)

I'd just like to thank Shroomy for pointing out the Indo-European/Sanskrit thing. As a teacher of English and fan of language history, I'm glad there are others out there interested in the same esoteric disciplines.  

Oh, and P.S.
"Devas" makes me think of "divas" (and therefore Aretha Franklin and Diana Ross) no matter how much I remind myself how it is properly pronounced.  All my years of studying world religions can do nothing against it. So I'll need to come up with another name.


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## mattdm (Sep 11, 2008)

Ravilah said:


> "Devas" makes me think of "divas" (and therefore Aretha Franklin and Diana Ross) no matter how much I remind myself how it is properly pronounced.  All my years of studying world religions can do nothing against it. So I'll need to come up with another name.




Go here: Arya Sanghata Sutra - How to Pronounce the Sanskrit Names in the Sanghata and put the audio clip on loop until it drives you slightly crazy.


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## Sonny (Sep 11, 2008)

mattdm said:


> Go here: Arya Sanghata Sutra - How to Pronounce the Sanskrit Names in the Sanghata and put the audio clip on loop until it drives you slightly crazy.




Can't he just listen to _Across the Universe_ a whole lot? It's The Beatles, so it'll still be awesome even after a thousand playbacks.


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## mach1.9pants (Sep 11, 2008)

Eie


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## FireLance (Sep 11, 2008)

cangrejoide said:


> I wonder what tomorrow will bring.



WotC re-invents the modrons as transforming robots led by Optimus, the One and the Prime.


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## proto128 (Sep 11, 2008)

FireLance said:


> WotC re-invents the modrons as transforming robots led by Optimus, the One and the Prime.




Not seeing a problem here.


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## Keefe the Thief (Sep 11, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Obviously, one or more of the 4e designers has a boner for goth stereotypes and thinks it'll appeal to today's _My Chemical Romance_ scenesters. They would've made the Shadar-Kai a PC race if they could.




Ha! I knew, when we´re talking about "lore changes i don´t like", the good old "they used gothy things - nooo!" stuff gets pulled out of the cabinet. Yes, yes i know: Prof. Cirno used the idiotic "gothemo" combination, but he´s on my ignore list and doesn´t count. Hey, perhaps i should make myself a sig or banner like this:

"If you think there is anything gothy in the corebooks, you don´t know anything about goth. But i think you knew this already."


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 11, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> Uhm... sorry to nitpick, but there is no word like "hoar" in German. The word for "high" is "hoch" and for "heights" is "Höhen"!
> 
> Cheers, LT




Hochling? Hoehenling?


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## WhatGravitas (Sep 11, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Hochling? Hoehenling?



Engling... you know, like in Engel, just a bit contracted! Erm... on a second thought, I will keep favouring Deva!

Cheers, LT.


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## Klaus (Sep 11, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Hochling? Hoehenling?



HOCHling! That's what I chose!

Curse my faulty memory chips!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 11, 2008)

Klaus said:


> HOCHling! That's what I chose!
> 
> Curse my faulty memory chips!




Hochling is difficult to pronounce in English (How would you do it?), and it might sound "hockling", which more sounds like nightmare creature. I think Jürgen has a similar creature in the Arcana Wiki. The German world for nightmare "Alptraum" is related to "Alpdruck" and stands for some kind of demon/devil sitting on your chest, causing you to dream badly and making it harder to breathe. (Which is why if you wake up after a nightmare, you breathe heavily). It is also related to Alb -> Elb -> Elf. I suppose the various etymologies of these races is where Terry Pratchett took the image of his Discworld Elves which only look nice. 

So, it might not be such a good idea after all. 

Would anyone notice if you just said "Engel"? (g spoken like in "hague" not like in "generic").


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## Obryn (Sep 11, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Devas works for them. Old-school devas were just "tanar'ri-ized angels," anyway, so making those protector spirits of old actual Angels and giving these guys the name is a good thing.



Huh?  They showed up in 1e's MM2 along with Solars and Planetars.

Pre-tanar'ri-ization. 

-O


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## Klaus (Sep 11, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Hochling is difficult to pronounce in English (How would you do it?), and it might sound "hockling", which more sounds like nightmare creature. I think Jürgen has a similar creature in the Arcana Wiki. The German world for nightmare "Alptraum" is related to "Alpdruck" and stands for some kind of demon/devil sitting on your chest, causing you to dream badly and making it harder to breathe. (Which is why if you wake up after a nightmare, you breathe heavily). It is also related to Alb -> Elb -> Elf. I suppose the various etymologies of these races is where Terry Pratchett took the image of his Discworld Elves which only look nice.
> 
> So, it might not be such a good idea after all.
> 
> Would anyone notice if you just said "Engel"? (g spoken like in "hague" not like in "generic").



I'm pronouncing it "hoh-ling". But anyway, it's now a moo point. 

Engel I don't mind, but in Portuguese it sounds like "enguia", which is the word for "eel".

I'm still partial to dioskouri (sons of Zeus).


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 11, 2008)

Klaus said:


> I'm pronouncing it "hoh-ling". But anyway, it's now a *moo *point.
> 
> Engel I don't mind, but in Portuguese it sounds like "enguia", which is the word for "eel".
> 
> I'm still partial to dioskouri (sons of *Zeus*).




Interestingly, there is a bizarre connection between your misspelling and the later parts of your post. Greetings from Europa...


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## The Little Raven (Sep 11, 2008)

FireLance said:


> WotC re-invents the modrons as transforming robots led by Optimus, the One and the Prime.




Where can I pre-order this?


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## Vael (Sep 11, 2008)

FireLance said:


> WotC re-invents the modrons as transforming robots led by Optimus, the One and the Prime.




Oooh, want!


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## Toras (Sep 11, 2008)

Yes, and there shall be much transforming and rolling out until someone realizes how much they'd have to pay for the license or heave to and prepared to be sued.

As for the Aasimar -> Deva change irritates me if only because it does the same thing Eladrin did.  I don't mind if they change the name, but I hate when they take something elses name and use it too mean something else.   I don't care if strong celestial bloods turn into what we understand as Deva after being on the Circle of Reincarnation long enough to turn into Buddhisavas for the like.  

Would coming up with a new name really that hard?


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## Set (Sep 11, 2008)

Vael said:


> I'm indifferent. Both names are problematic ... I can just see someone asking to play a Diva, which I know is the wrong way to say it, but it amuses me.




Tell them, 'Sure, you can play a Bard following the Pop-Star epic path.  Were you thinking Hannah Montana teen idol, or J.Lo booty-queen?'


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## Set (Sep 11, 2008)

FireLance said:


> WotC re-invents the modrons as transforming robots led by Optimus, the One and the Prime.




See, you could do something cool with that.

Imagine a clicking shifting mechanical creature that, when damaged, flies apart into a swarm of smaller machines that attempt to 'disassemble' their attacker?

And then my Swordmage can get a Modriform set of Fullplate that can either follow alongside him as a small mechanical person, or fly apart and reassemble onto him and serve as armor.  If he falls in combat, it flies up off of him and defends it's fallen wearer as a Small Golem!


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## Green Knight (Sep 11, 2008)

> Yes, and there shall be much transforming and rolling out until someone realizes how much they'd have to pay for the license or heave to and prepared to be sued.




Hate to be serious, but would WotC have to license Transformers to use them? Seeing as how both are owned by Hasbro. I've long wanted a Transformers RPG, so I always thought it was pretty strange that WotC, being owned by Hasbro, which also owns Transformers, never put 2 and 2 together and put out such a game.


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## Estlor (Sep 11, 2008)

firelance said:


> wotc re-invents the modrons as transforming robots led by optimus, the one and the prime.




do want


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## Spatula (Sep 11, 2008)

Hm, how about using Latin (the language of the christian church in medieval Europe, fitting in with the race's divine nature) instead of German when looking for a word root:

caelestis? sublimis? diu? subnubilus? (may be too close to Snuffaluffagus)

Diuling.  Diumen.  Caelesten.  Sublimen.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 11, 2008)

Spatula said:


> Hm, how about using Latin (the language of the christian church in medieval Europe, fitting in with the race's divine nature) instead of German when looking for a word root:




Deva is not from a German root, and the root it does come from predates Christianity (as does the religion that it is used in).


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## Spatula (Sep 11, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> Deva is not from a German root



Uh, who said it was?


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## Cam Banks (Sep 11, 2008)

Obryn said:


> Huh?  They showed up in 1e's MM2 along with Solars and Planetars.




Yup. And I'm pretty sure the astral deva (as opposed to the monadic and movanic devas) was from something older. Tsojcanth's monster booklet? Dragon magazine? Man, I loved Tsojcanth when it first came out. Didn't care about the adventure, I just loved all the new monsters.

Cheers,
Cam


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## The Little Raven (Sep 11, 2008)

Spatula said:


> Uh, who said it was?




It looked like you were when you said "how about using Latin instead of German when looking for a word root."


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 12, 2008)

Obryn said:
			
		

> Huh? They showed up in 1e's MM2 along with Solars and Planetars.




Dangnabbit.

I'm giving myself 20 lashes right now.

Wanna watch?


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## cangrejoide (Sep 12, 2008)

FireLance said:


> WotC re-invents the modrons as transforming robots led by Optimus, the One and the Prime.




If only.


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## cangrejoide (Sep 12, 2008)

cangrejoide said:


> If only.





Did anyone say Hoochling?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 12, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Dangnabbit.
> 
> I'm giving myself 20 lashes right now.
> 
> Wanna watch?




No, thanks, I am not into that kinda stuff.


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## mach1.9pants (Sep 12, 2008)

Thats the only thing that comes to my mind with DEVA.....bring back the aasimar


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## Elphilm (Sep 12, 2008)

In Finnish the word _aasi_ means 'donkey', and by extension, 'stupid'. You can guess I'm not a fan of the word aasimar.

In my mind 'daeva' is strongly associated with the demonic spirits of Zoroastrianism, and thus is no good either. 'Deva' is nearly perfect, and like it was said on page 1, brings a different and fresh cultural flavor to the game.

But should tieflings be called asuras?


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## Derro (Sep 12, 2008)

Sonny said:


> Also, every time a Devo reincarnates, it'll be into  a lower life form.




Well played, sir, well played.


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## Kobold Avenger (Sep 12, 2008)

Elphilm said:


> But should tieflings be called asuras?




It's a name used for another type of celestial in 2e/3e that was featured in the Al-Quadim MC, Planescape: Planes of Conflict and Book of Exalted Deeds, as fiery winged talon-footed angels.  They haven't been converted to 4e yet, but they have many unique abilities such as unleashing burning winds and trumpets of doom, that might mean they appear again in 4e, even if it's something like an "angel of wrath".


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## Herobizkit (Sep 13, 2008)

I chose to take the assimar and all the other planetouched and lump them into the "Seraphim" race... the four elements, plus the Light (assimar) and Shadow (tiefling) energy forms.


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