# D20 Marvel



## victordoom (Jun 2, 2002)

Some  guy on the Wizards of Coast forum is claiming he trying to get the Marvel License.Not sure how serious he is but he's already posted Gambits  and Cyclops stats. Not really sure how its gonna work but Cyclops is up there in level. He claims this week the is going to be some info on his game here at EN World so I guess we'll see.I was suprised that I hadn't seen it mentioned here so I thought I'd bring it up.BTW we successfully tested D. Jon Mattson D20 superhero game last night . It really worked well (although we added Vitality) in a one on one fight between characters that were within one level of each other. Mr. Mattson can be contacted at dmattson@kermode.net. He put alot of work into the game and it looks like we'll use it till october.My friend Clarence is helping him with art work and rule revisions. I don't have his web site memorized but I'll make available a little later.


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## victordoom (Jun 2, 2002)

*Here are the links I promised*

D. Jon Mattson web site is http://cwylric.diaryland.com/index.html and to take a look at my friends art work go to http://www.quindia.com/portfolio.html. Enjoy!


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## Horacio (Jun 3, 2002)

Thanks for the links!


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## victordoom (Jun 4, 2002)

*link to down load supes d20*

Here's the link to down load the d20 rules we've been testing.
http://www.rpghoard.com/cgi-bin/arcdb.cgi?cat=15&sec=9
 Check it out and see what you think!


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## EarthsShadow (Jun 5, 2002)

**

I think its cool.  I have been waiting for a good supers d20 game, so after I download the info, print it out, and get some friends over to play, i'll let you know what we did and how it turned out.


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## victordoom (Jun 5, 2002)

*starting a campaign*

In three weeks , after we rap up our D&D campaign, we are going to start playing in a group with mixed level characters. Between 3 and  8 . Clarence has come up with a conversion chart from Marvel Saga that helps with conversions. We won't be using marvel characters but our players think in terms of marvel characters (y'know  I want my guy to be strong as Thor or fast like Longshot). I'll updare how things go if people are interested.


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Jun 5, 2002)

Please let us know how things go.


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## NemesisPress (Jun 7, 2002)

*Re: *



			
				EarthsShadow said:
			
		

> *I think its cool.  I have been waiting for a good supers d20 game, so after I download the info, print it out, and get some friends over to play, i'll let you know what we did and how it turned out. *




Don't forget to try Vigilance (available at RPGNow). It takes an alternate tack by not requiring energy points to activate powers, and also seems to give more flexibility in buying powers as you advance.


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## okuth0r (Jun 7, 2002)

*stats*

can you post what forum/thread those stats were posted in? haveing trouble finding them.


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## Urklore (Jun 7, 2002)

bump


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## victordoom (Jun 7, 2002)

*Saga conversions*

Keep in mind thats these are not hard core stats but it did give us a starting point
                      STR=STR
                      Agility=dex
                      Will=Wis
                      Int=int
               (STR+Will)/2=Con
             We handle charisma objectively and with a dose of common sense and our vast knowledge of the Marvel Universe.

     Saga                Description                        D20

       0                        N/A                               0-2

       1                    Elderly or disabled           3-5

       2                    low human                      6-8

       3-4               average human                9-11

       5-6               high human                      12-14

        7-8            highly trained human          15-17

       9-10             maximum human               18-20

       11-12             enhanced                        21-24

       13-14    Far higher than human             25-28

       15-16            Unbelievable                     29-32

        17-18           Overwhelming                   33-36

         19-20     Ultimate level for humans       37-40

         21-25       Otherworldly                         41-45

         26-30        cosmic                                  46-50

 We also used Edge to help determine level!

          Edge                 description                   level

            0                      normal human            0-2

            1                     inexpierenced             2-5

            2                     expierenced               5-9

            3                     Authority  figure         10-13

            4                     Best anywhere           14-20

            5                         Cosmic                   21+
 Like I said these are starting points we tweaked some characters to get them right. Also Clarence developed the brawn power to help with  more accurate lifting capacity I will see if he can post the description of it sometime tonight. Feel fre to ask any questions I'll be happy to answer any I can.


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## quindia (Jun 8, 2002)

I've modified the Brawn power so it allows greater carrying capacity (with no other effects on the game). Each level of Brawn multiplies the carrying capacity by 1+level (x2 for level one, x3 for level two, x4 for level three). This seems to be the only way I can begin to model "Marvel" level heroes without resorting to Strengths of "70". Couple this with the fact that the Hulk, the Thing, Thor, etc. are probably considered "Large" creatures (you get to double it again), you begin to approach the range of 50 to 100 tons from the old MSH game...

An example... I have the Thing with a Brawn of level two and a Strength of 36. In standard D&D, a 36 strength can lift 7,360 pounds over his head (PHB pg 142 - may lift double maximum load, but only stagger around with it ). Double this because the Thing is a "Large" creature and we get 14,720 pounds or nearly 7.5 tons. Not bad, but not the Thing. Even Spider-Man is rated at 10 tons. So now we apply my modifier for Brawn level two and multiply the carrying capacity by three to get 44,160 pounds or about 22 tons. Ok, we're still far shy of the 75 tons listed in the old MSH game, but if look at those rules it says "75 tons with difficulty". A-ha! We'll add a Strength roll and asign a DC15 to this base number and adding a like amount of weight adds 5 to the DC. So now we have 22 tons at DC15 (anything but a "1" since STR 36 has a +13 modifier... basically automatic... a "1" always fails in D&D anyway), 44 tons at DC20 (roll a "7"), 66 tons at DC25 (roll a "12"), and 88 tons at DC30 (roll a "17"). 

I guess 110 tons at DC35 (roll a "14" and add two Karma points for +8) would be possible with the use of "Karma" - my version of "Fate" points. It's weird, I developed my Karma rules before I saw your set and we both had the same idea of a +4 per point, but I allow a maximum of two points, more after the old MSH where you could a "10" into a "00" if you had the Karma...

It's worth noting that the official rules are now called Paragon. Cwylric has modifed his carrying capacity some to allow greater feats of strength, but the rule presented above seems to work well with the chart Victordoom posted above.

Check in at http://cwylric.diaryland.com/ on regular basis for updates to the rules. You can also see the cover of the Vancouver:2020 sourcebook, although it's not the final piece.


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## njrpg (Jun 9, 2002)

I just downloaded the rules.  They look good!


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## bolen (Jun 9, 2002)

So how many D20 Super games will come out

1) Mutants and Masterminds (Is this FFG I cant remember)

2)  The EN World

3) silver age sentinals (In game trader mag)

4) who else?


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Jun 9, 2002)

Mutants and Masterminds is by Green Ronin not FFG.


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## quindia (Jun 10, 2002)

The great thing about the d20 rules is that you should be able to draw things from different sets if you like one aspect of game x and a different concept of game y. Powers seem to be handled with the greatest variety, but skills, feats, and maybe classes might be transferable.

You can add Paragon - a very good free game at this point, along with it's character and setting suppliment, Vancouver:2020, that is nearing completion - and an official d20 Marvel game... keep an eye here more more information on both.


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## Horacio (Jun 10, 2002)

quindia said:
			
		

> *You can add Paragon - a very good free game at this point, along with it's character and setting suppliment, Vancouver:2020, that is nearing completion - and an official d20 Marvel game... keep an eye here more more information on both. *




d20 Marvel? Are you serious? Who is doing it? How do you know?

Yes, I know most answers will be "I cannot say", but at least I try it...


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## quindia (Jun 10, 2002)

I'm afraid I can't talk about it too much yet, but I'll post more info as soon as I'm able. Sufice to say, the game will be licenced by Marvel comics and you should be hearing a lot about it soon...


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## bolen (Jun 10, 2002)

what happened to the old TSR licence for Marvel. Did they loose it or what?


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## quindia (Jun 10, 2002)

The TSR licence expired and they chose not to renew it... that's one reason the Marvel Saga Team-up book was never released.


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## Horacio (Jun 11, 2002)

Please, post more info as soon as you can!


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## quindia (Jun 14, 2002)

Here's a link to the cover of the Vancouver:2020 sourcebook:

http://www.quindia.com/portvancouver.html

We are seeking character submissions to be included in the book.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 14, 2002)

Look at the latest issue of Asgard magazine for a teaser of Natural 20 Press's upcoming d20 supers book.


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Jun 15, 2002)

Well I just checked out the teaser of D20 Supers in Asgard and I must say I like what I saw.  It's exactly what I am looking for.  This way I can add super powers into my Dragonstar game ideas.  Hell I could toss them in my Weird Wars game.


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## EarthsShadow (Jun 16, 2002)

anyone know when d20 supers is coming out for sure?


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Jun 16, 2002)

Nothing solid yet...  Sometime before July was the last I heard...


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## NeuroZombie (Jun 18, 2002)

I have read all of the d20 supers variants thus far, the horrible Foundation, the Godlike d20 conversion, Vigilance, Paragon d20 and the preview of the Natural version is Asgard.  In almost every way, the Paragon d20 version is, IMHO, the way to go.  I plan on adding a few things that I did like from the other rpgs to Paragon, but over all I think Paragon beats them all!

Still, gotta see Mutants and Masterminds.  Green Ronin is a great company and they may be able to one-up Paragon. Remains to be seen.


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## bolen (Jun 18, 2002)

What is Paragon are they a company?


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## quindia (Jun 19, 2002)

Paragon is a free d20 supers game. The sourcebook is called Vancouver:2020. Both are available here...

http://www.rpghoard.com/cgi-bin/arcdb.cgi?cat=15&sec=9

Here's a link to the cover of the Vancouver book:

http://www.quindia.com/portvancouver.html

Oh, yeah... you can keep up to date with the latest news, additions, 
and other updates here...

http://cwylric.diaryland.com/index.html

It started as a temporary project to wait for Mutants and 
Masterminds, but after the amount of effort put into it, I don't know if we'll make the switch.

There is also a discussion on the d20 boards at WotC so if you like the game, log in over there and add your voice to that discussion (and if you don't like it, let us know why...). There has been a lot of work put into these projects. The game is well balanced, as far as our playtesting has determined so far anyway and has a very detailed list of powers.

Give it a try and let us know what you think...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Aaron L (Jun 19, 2002)

How well would a class/level based superhero game work?  I've never seen much advancement among superheroes, they kind of just "are".  I'm not saying it wouldn't work, and I'm interested in seeing how the systems look.


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## victordoom (Jun 19, 2002)

*Hero progression*

I used to think it really never made since to have a level based supes game. To me it always seemed the heros were all set to go when their comic got started. But back in the late 80's I think comic book writers started showing interest in telling the stories of a the heros learning the ropes, thus titles like Batman : Year one and such. It does really make since if you think about it . I think Thor wood not find much challenge from the Saturn men now, but back then they were percieved a threat. Spidey would hand the enforcers over to the cops and not break a sweat now but back in the day they gave him all he could handle.
  So heros do grow and gain experience and levels do as good a job as anything to reflect this growth. This doesn't mean one night you and yor buddies can't get together and use the Avengers (most of those guys are at leaste 8th level) and kick some but. Or for that matter create a character at whatever level you want and play with him. Who knows maybe one night you and your GM can decide to run a year one campaign with you using an early incarnation of your high level character.


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## trancejeremy (Jun 20, 2002)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> *How well would a class/level based superhero game work?  I've never seen much advancement among superheroes, they kind of just "are".  I'm not saying it wouldn't work, and I'm interested in seeing how the systems look. *




One of the first Superhero RPGs, Villains & Vigilantes, had levels. Had a very big following at one time.


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## quindia (Jun 20, 2002)

I disagree that super heroes in the comics do not typically increase in power or gain new abilities. First of all, a first level hero is the equivilant of his or her counterpart in D&D... a neophyte adventurer. Just looking at one Marvel series, all of the original X-Men were clumsy with their powers in the beginning. That's what the danger room sessions were for. Their powers grew and they added more "stunts" as they gained experience. Magneto has all kind of abilities that he never displayed in those early books. Beast and Jean Grey changed completely. Later characters like Aerial went from a teenage girl who could walk through walls to Shadowcat, an intangible ninja who could apply her single power to a much broader range of situations (air walk, etc.). Rogue went through a transformation as well when she permanently gained Ms Marvels powers. All of the New Mutants changed and grew more powerful as their book progressed. 

In any case, the Paragon rules tie beginning powers to race or origin. Only one class allows a character to increase his powers. These increases may be in the form of greater strength of an existing power or more control of that power(gaining "stunts" or eliminating limitations) or, yes, that class may add a new power. However, when allowing a new power, the GM should have a reason. A telepath might add psychic attack as a development of her mental powers, but should be discouraged from suddenly growing wings. A new power may also only be added at the least powerful rank and will not be on par with established powers, so I have found it is usually better to develop abilities the character already possesses.

It is also not required that you begin play as a neophyte hero. If you want to represent established crime fighters, simply make 12th level characters. The Meta-human class (the only one to gain powers as I mentioned above) only allows power enhancements at 2nd, 5th, 11th, 14th, and 20th, so it's not like a character would change radically every time he gained a level. In any case, character improvement when gaining levels is part of the d20 system. It's what players expect.


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## Horacio (Jun 20, 2002)

They only thing I dislike from Paragon is Energy. I hate having an Energy pool, and zhen exhausting it beign without powers for an hour. It is too D&D Magic System for me. 

X-Men don't have Energy


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## victordoom (Jun 20, 2002)

I disagree, the x-men(along with most modern age heros) do have limits to how long they can sustain a power. I can't tell you how many time I heard  Psylock or havok cry " I can't keep this up much longer"(clearly this could mean something else entirely for Havok)Many heros however can push themselves beyond their power limit for short periods of time and there are feats that allow you to accomplish this.
 In the playtest we tried the 2 characters were power heavy so we could see how the energy thing went. Niether of us depleted our energy pool by time the fight ended. Super strength  and the like hardly dent your power (only when you push them)usaully its energy blast and stuff like that. It worked well in the playtest so give it a shot!


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## Horacio (Jun 20, 2002)

I tried it in playtest, that's why I don't like it. It's a lot more restrictive than, let's say, Hero System's Endurance. IMHO, of course...


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## Steve Conan Trustrum (Jun 20, 2002)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> *How well would a class/level based superhero game work?  I've never seen much advancement among superheroes, they kind of just "are".  I'm not saying it wouldn't work, and I'm interested in seeing how the systems look. *




Look at Heroes Unlimited by Palladium Games if you want to see a level system for comic book rpg'ing. I've never really liked superpowers being tied to levels, however (even though I've got tons of HU info up on my site and even freelanced for the product line a bit), as there are too many inherent problems such as it being impossible to have a character that is really strong with one power but remarkably weak with another.


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## Steve Conan Trustrum (Jun 20, 2002)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *I tried it in playtest, that's why I don't like it. It's a lot more restrictive than, let's say, Hero System's Endurance. IMHO, of course... *



This, among other things, is why I'll stick with Heroes for my comic book rpg'ing - I've yet to come across a system that handles the genre as well and has, as promised, allowed me to make absolutely every superhero or villain that I've thus far conceived (and I've had some odd ones), and all without a need to tweak or customize.

I think just about every system handles certain genres well - I wouldn't want to even attempt playing fantasy under the Hero System, for instance, because there are products like 3e that handle it so much better.


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## Horacio (Jun 20, 2002)

I would advise you to wait for _d20 Supers_ from Morrus and Natural 20 Press. After seeing the preview in Asgard, I think it can be what you're searching for.


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## victordoom (Jun 20, 2002)

Horacio, thanks for giving it a shot and wished it would have worked for you. I would appreciate it if you got the time to send a more detailed example of what frustrated you . We learn more from negative comments than any other. Was it just not having enough power for low level or was it with every level? Any information you could provide would be appreciated and respected. Just send it to me so I can pass it on to Paragon or Quindia or you can go directly to the paragon site to leave comments. 
  To me its still the best d20 supes game yet and next week we start playtesting with a group and I'll provide updates and let people know how it goes. Thanks again to Horacio for speaking up.


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## quindia (Jun 21, 2002)

OK, on the energy points problem... first of all are sure you used all of the rules correctly? I've been working with the game for a long time and still find I'm forgetting things. A character starts with 12ep plus his Con and Wis bonuses. If the character is a mutant, he gets 4 bonus points. Further more, characters gain one ep per experience level. In the games we've played so far, running out of energy hasn't been a problem. 

An average low-level character has around 18-20 energy points. Most powers available to a low level character only use 1ep. Many of these powers use only 1ep per duration (example... a third level hero with a Standard force field power pays 1ep per 15 rounds of utilizing the power as a defense). Special attacks that affect multiple targets might cost 2ep. Some of the more powerful abilities use more points, but since a character gains 1ep per level, this usually balances out.

As, Doom pointed out earlier, there are also feats that aid your ep expenditure and a feature that lets you push your power at the cost of taking subdual damage.

Something else to mention... if energy is your main gripe with the system as you stated in an earlier post (Horacio), simply increase the base ep's or allow an increase of 2ep's per level. Paragon, like most RPG's is meant to be a tool for creating the type of game you want to run, not a text book of the only way to do it.

As to having powers tied to levels, it's very easy in Paragon to create a character that is strong in one power and weak in another. To start with, each power has three ranks (Standard, Improved, and Ultra). Although level still influences the strength of the power (damage, saves, etc), the capabilities of the power are tied to the rank (a Standard Energy Blast does d4's, an Improved Energy Blast does d6's, and an Ultra Energy Blast does d8's for example). Second, when modeling high level characters, you can add limitations to some powers to better define their capabilities.

BTW, I'm waiting for Mutants & Masterminds too, but if the playtests of Paragon continue to go as well as they have, I don't know if I'll make the switch. The great thing about d20 is you can incorporate feats, skills, classes, etc from different games and turn the game you run at home into exactly what you want it to be. 

Anyway, thanks for taking a look at Paragon and don't hesitate to post questions, gripes, etc.


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## Broken Fang (Jun 21, 2002)

victordoom and quindia

It looks pretty darn good after a very brief read.  I am going to try and get another Supers fan over and look them over more carefully...make some characters...play test some combat...etc.

I'm a big comic fan and have played just about ever Supers game that has been out.  I really like some of the mechanics that you have incorporated with the powers.

Do you have a list of pre-generated comic book heros yet?  Something that might have a description of Batman or The Hulk?  To allow comparison to the game from teh comics?

I hope to comment in more detail by sometime next week.


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## quindia (Jun 22, 2002)

I have the Fantastic Four made up somewhere - I'll post them if I can find them - The game was really designed for our sourcebook... Vancouver:2020 (you can get the primer the same place you got the rules and might have a chance to participate in it if you hurry - it's been mentioned before in this thread) or a world of your own design. Look earlier in this discussion and you'll see my conversion notes for Marvel Saga... you'll have to fiddle with some of the numbers, but it gives you a rough base to start with.

I'm glad you like what you've seen so far... give the rules a try and let us know how it goes!


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## Margaiaman (Jun 22, 2002)

*Save mods?*

I've been looking over your system, and I must say it looks much like something I had been trying to get working for my own group.

Very nice by the way...I like it!

I do have a question that jumps right out at me...why exactly do the classess have such odd save progressions?  I'm sure there's a rational behind the decision and I'd love to hear it.


I'm sure I'll have some more when I dig a little deeper into the system.  Also, did I see an allusion to a game being run online using these rules already?  Or is that additions to your setting?


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## quindia (Jun 22, 2002)

Hmmm... can you be a little more specific about the problem with the save progression? I suspect any unusual jumps were set along the lines of existing classes in D&D and work to bring balance to the classes. There has been a lot of thought put into these rules and most of what's in the final version is the result of playtesting.

BTW, I'm not the author of the rules. I am the illustrator and have made small contributions in working out problems and just believe that this is the best d20 supers game I've seen yet. The author is Jon Mattson and can be reached from this site - you can also keep up to date on the project here:

http://cwylric.diaryland.com/

I don't think there are any online games being run at this point, but I could be wrong. The sourcebook for Paragon is called Vancouver:2020 and we are accepting character submissions for inclusion in the book. They must fit into the background presented in the sourcebook.


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## Cwylric (Jun 22, 2002)

Hi, all!

Quindia said I should look in here sometime, so here I am.  I'm "that Cwylric guy" who wrote the Paragon rules and is currently compiling Vancouver: 2020.  I'll be popping in, now and then, and I'll try to answer any questions you might have.

One caught my eye, from Margaiaman, i.e.:
I do have a question that jumps right out at me...why exactly do the classess have such odd save progressions? I'm sure there's a rational behind the decision and I'd love to hear it.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what you mean.  The saves are pretty straightforward and "D&Dish" -- nothing special there.  The only thing I can think is that maybe you meant that some of them do not follow the exact same pattern as a core D&D class (i.e. the old 2+one-half level rounded down for favored saves, and one-third level rounded down for others).  If you look at the Warrior saves in Paragon, for example, they are not quite the same as Fighter saves (they focus a little less on Fort and a little more on Ref).  They still have a pattern (similar to some of the classes in other books, like Oriental Adventures and Spycraft) but not one that shows up as a "default" pattern in the PHB.

Am I getting warm, here, about what you meant?  If so, then the answer is pretty straightforward.  Using either system, the end result is much the same: the saves all total up normally, etc. -- they're just spread out differently.  Add up a few, at any given level, and you will see what I mean.  Note, as well, that they *do* follow a pattern -- it just isn't one you may be used to.  Rest assured that they are balanced.  Most total up much the same as a for a typical D&D class, but some are a little better or a little worse, as was needed to balance the class.  Of course, none of them are quite as good as those available to a Monk/Martial Artist.

Of course, I may be completely wrong about what you meant, but I'm at a loss as to what else it could be.  Hope this helps...?

Anyway, another question I have noticed here, now and then, is whether there is some sort of standardized system for converting Marvel Super Heroes characters to Paragon and vice versa.  The answer is: not yet, but it is on the way.  I just started fiddling with it, yesterday, in fact.  It was just going to be for my own use, but if other people want to see it, I'll post it at some point.  I'm not sure when, as it is not at the top of my priority list, but some portion of it, at least, should be available soon.

In the meantime, if you need characters, check out Vancouver: 2020.  Even at the half-way point, it already has 30 characters, and lots more are on the way.  (Plug, plug.)


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## Wikidogre (Jun 24, 2002)

*Questions about the system*

First question, has anyone else been able to play Paragons d20 yet,

second question, has anyone run in to any issues with the system, one thing i feel needs to be changed is the Armor class, when using armor, i feel should be a damage reduction. one thing that i have done, is use a armor class reduction system, much like the one used in the Old supers game cosmic enforcers, which i was very into, but it bombed, so i am not sure if anyone else has heard of it. but they used a d20 type system so it was simple to convert. basically u get your normal ac, but your character gets Bash Defense and blast defense,  (physical/energy), which is based on characteristics, and then can be enhanced by powers, or armor. This has worked out pretty well, and i do have to say, Mutants and Masterminds and D20 Supers, is going to have to really sell me, because Paragon is a very very nice Super Hero system for D20.


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## victordoom (Jun 24, 2002)

Yes Quindia and myself had tested in one on one combat between to characters within a level of each other. While niether of the characters had armor so to speak one the characters had damage resistance that was tied into his Brawn power. I don't have my rule book in front of me but Quindia or myself will answer your question in more detail later. Be sure to check the boards later.
  By the way week after next we start play testing the group and we will be sure to let everyone know how it goes.


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## Sulimo (Jun 24, 2002)

quindia said:
			
		

> *The TSR licence expired and they chose not to renew it... that's one reason the Marvel Saga Team-up book was never released. *




And why we never got any PDF's of the old Marvel stuff. I would have loved to have gotten a full set of the pre-SAGA MSH game.


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## quindia (Jun 24, 2002)

The first answer is some armor provides both AC bonus and damage resistance against some kinds of attack.

The second answer to the armor question is the same as a lot to questions of this type... it's not in the Players' Handbook. Cwylric wants Paragon to only require one book. The Vitality/Wounds question has come up a lot too.

The third answer, maybe more important than the others, is that all of the powers that provide damage resistance become less useful... why use up a precious power slot if you can spend a few bucks for gear that does the same thing? 

Finally, there's nothing to stop you from using DR for armor in your own games, but I don't think it will ever be incorporated into the "official" rules - this isn't the first time this has come up and Cwylric and I have discussed it before. There has been a lot of thought put into the rules and I would suggest you try a few games before changing too much... 

I'm glad you like the game! Try a few games and let us know how it goes!


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## quindia (Jun 24, 2002)

Sulimo, you can get a lot of the old MSH stuff in PDF form from here:

http://www.rabunda.com/~super/dir.php?loc=resources/rules/index.php


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## Margaiaman (Jun 24, 2002)

Cwylric said:
			
		

> *One caught my eye, from Margaiaman, i.e.:
> I do have a question that jumps right out at me...why exactly do the classess have such odd save progressions? I'm sure there's a rational behind the decision and I'd love to hear it.
> 
> To be honest, I'm not quite sure what you mean.  The saves are pretty straightforward and "D&Dish" -- nothing special there.  The only thing I can think is that maybe you meant that some of them do not follow the exact same pattern as a core D&D class (i.e. the old 2+one-half level rounded down for favored saves, and one-third level rounded down for others).  If you look at the Warrior saves in Paragon, for example, they are not quite the same as Fighter saves (they focus a little less on Fort and a little more on Ref).  They still have a pattern (similar to some of the classes in other books, like Oriental Adventures and Spycraft) but not one that shows up as a "default" pattern in the PHB.
> ...




Actually you were spot on.  Yes, the save progressions look very odd to my eye.  I'm only familiar with three types, a 'good' save (2+1/2 level round down), a 'poor' save (0+1/3 level round down), and an 'ok' save (which follows something a little more complexe.  +1 +2 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +4 +4 +5 +5 +6 +6 +6 +7 +7 +8 +8 +8 +9) (The 'ok' progression I have only seen in the Wheel of Time book from Wizard's of the Coast)

Those three I am familiar with and make sense to me.  However, in Paragon I have found many of the classes don't seem to follow these three save progression patterns.  Since you mention the warrior I'll look to it as an example.

Only the warrior's will save can fit in one of the three above categories.  Its fortitude save is a variation of the good save, and I'm not sure how the reflex save came about.

As I mentioned in my post and you have answered in yours, I'm sure there are reasons like balance and what not.  It just took me aback that the progressions were so different from those in any published book that I have seen.  (I haven't yet looked at Spycraft, are there really some so different in that book?)

I'm certainly not saying that I dislike the save progressions you have placed in the classes.  I just found it odd that they were in that fashion given what I have seen in published works.  All of my doubts will melt away in actual play I am sure.   
   Unfortunatly I don't know if I'll ever be able to play the game.  So until then I'll look it over and keep dreaming about all the heroes I could be playing, or the stories I could run with this system.


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## quindia (Jun 26, 2002)

Cwylric's posted the d20 Paragon/Marvel Super Heroes conversion notes as promised and you can get them here:

http://www.rpghoard.com/cgi-bin/arcdb.cgi?cat=15&sec=9


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## Cwylric (Jun 26, 2002)

Phew!  I can't seem to stay a step ahead of quindia!  Every time I go to post something here, I see that he has beaten me to the punch.  I was going to mention that the MSH conversion notes are done, but it looks like I'm too late.

Ah, but wait!  I can do him one better!  I'm going to attach the zipped up .doc version to this note, so you can grab it directly from here.  If you want the .pdf version, though, you will have to pop over to RPG Hoard (it's just too big, even zipped).

Anyway, I was going to reply to Wikidogres armor-related comments but quindia dealt with that, to some degree, as well.  As he pointed out, in Paragon, most forms of armor grant both AC and DR bonuses.  AC is used when the armor is designed to actually deflect the attack (e.g. reflec armor bouncing lasers).  DR is used when the armor sucks up the damage.  Kevlar, for example, does both: it grants a small AC deflection bonus, but, if you get hit, it absorbs some of the damage, as well.

Powers are much the same.  Some grant AC, some grant DR, and some do both (e.g. Force Fields) -- and for the same reasons.

To be honest, I had originally planned to just scrap the AC bonus and work strictly with DR, taking the approach that many other d20 games took.  It just didn't feel right for some types of armor and for many powers, though, and it also would have fouled up the PHB compatability that I was striving for.  So, in the end, I stuck to this middle-of-the-road approach.


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## EarthsShadow (Jun 26, 2002)

*vp/wp & defense*

I have downloaded and actually played the game one time as it stands with hit point rules and armor class using armor, and I can say that myself and my players love the powers, the races, and most of the classes, we disliked using regular hit points and armor class with such a flashy and combat intensive game as Paragon d20.  

So, we modified it to fit vitality and wound points and defense as used in star wars and gave each class defense increases and changed armor like this: we split up the total armor class into a defense modifier and also damage reduction, but only against certain kinetic attacks.  In other words, if a power was used that has armor piercing attacks or something like that, then the armor damage reduction would not negate some of the armor.  We played it like this once with fifth level heroes to see how it worked, and overall it did have a much better feel to the game.  

You might want to consider this as feedback from a person who ran the game two different ways to see how it worked.  

Overall, the game rocks!   

If you want, i can give you more feedback on a later date, but I did want to mention this to you.


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## Cwylric (Jun 27, 2002)

Well, I ended up doing a second part to the MSH conversion rules, and I'll post the article here, as well.  The system lets you create brand new MSH-strength characters in Paragon, either to use with ones that have been converted from MSH or simply to run in some other sort of high-powered campaign.  I make no promises about the balance and whether the resulting characters will work well under the normal Paragon rules -- some of the changes are pretty extreme.  In general, though, I think everything will be fine, as long as DMs remember that the resulting characters have a CR at least 2 points higher than usual.  Or, to look at it in Paragon terms, non-supers should have their effective CRs reduced by two steps (e.g. from 1/4 to 1/8, or from 1/3 to 1/6, for example).

Just remember, before making any complaints about the balance, etc.: I did this just for fun and have no intention of making it an integral part of Paragon or providing any sort of long-term support for it.  Character's made using it will *not* be eligible for publication in Vancouver: 2020.

Having said this, I've made a few characters with it, and it's kind of fun.  Sometimes random is a good thing.


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## Cwylric (Jun 27, 2002)

Earthshadow:  Glad you enjoyed playing with the system.  It's nice to know that people out there are actually playing it and not just talking about it.  

Regarding, the Vitality/Wound thing:  This idea has come up many times before, so I'll just give you the standard reply.  Paragon is a D&D supplement, not a generic d20 one, and has been designed to require only the PHB.  Thus, it uses hp for compatability reasons.  As you discovered, it is easy enough to add Vitality/Wounds, if you want to go that route, anyway, since Vitality = hp and Wounds = Constitution.

Having said this, I am probably going to include some custom variation on the Vitality/Wound system in a future version, since a lot of people like it; however, it will never be more than an optional rule, again for compatability reasons.  This has become even more of an issue now that it looks like WotC may be going back to hp, themselves, in future d20 stuff.

Regarding the Armor Class/Defense thing: Actually, I won't say much about this, because I just did -- see my reply to Wikidogre, in the post just before yours.  Again, Defense was avoided to preserve compatability and because, quite frankly, it doesn't always work that well, anyway (it often feels rather arbitrary).  It isn't really needed in Paragon, anyway, because of the numerous defensive feats and Powers, not to mention the vastly more realistic and practical Active Defense rules (which allow you to decide how much emphasis you want to put on defense at any given time, rather than just having an arbitrary class bonus).  Also, having tried out three methods over many, many sessions -- AC, DR, and mixed AC/DR -- the last seemed to work the best, by far.


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## quindia (Jul 3, 2002)

I've just discovered a great upside to Paragon... maybe Cwylric, in all his wisdom, planned this - but I'll pretend I figured it out just the same...

Three of the classes in Paragon (the Martial Artist, the Rogue, and the Sorcerer) come straight from the PHB. Mighty efforts were made to ensure the new classes balanced with those. This means that you should be able to use any D&D compatible material in your Paragon games! I've added a Psychic Warrior from the Psionic Handbook to my game and one of my NPC's has a few levels of Assassin.

So far so good...


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## Cwylric (Jul 6, 2002)

Well, I do have my moments, now and then...  

Actually, the class compatability thing was something I was shooting for, right from the beginning.  To be honest, I was mainly concerned about prestige classes, but the fact that normal classes from other games also work is an added bonus.

For my part, I have started mixing Paragon and Spycraft, and I am quite pleased with the results, so far.  If you're interested in this mix, check out the Paragon blog for lots more info:
http://cwylric.diaryland.com/


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## Wikidogre (Jul 6, 2002)

As of last night, after my venture to Origins (Good Times), i was able to GM a great adventure using the rules, and lemme tell you it went nice and smooth. i really dont think that any other company is going to be able to compete. the play was smooth, and the powers where much the same. great job again.


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## Cwylric (Jul 7, 2002)

Thank you very much for the kind words, Wikidogre!   Glad you guys had fun!


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## Wikidogre (Jul 7, 2002)

Cwylric said:
			
		

> *Thank you very much for the kind words, Wikidogre!   Glad you guys had fun! *




Notta a prob. Cwylric. I will be running a game tonight actually.


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## quindia (Jul 7, 2002)

Although I've done A LOT of combat encounters and fiddling with characters, I'm kicking off my first full camapign with my whole group this Tuesday. I'll let you know how it goes and post any problems we run into.


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## Wikidogre (Jul 8, 2002)

*Question of the day!*

OK Cwylric, or whom ever esle would know, which power or what kind of power would you create, spidermans swinging, i am using an improved entangle with the sticky amp. for his webbing, but i am getting stumped for the swinging through the streets.

any sug. would be nice.

*Update, i am also tossing around the idea of maybe making Spidermans swinging ability a skill, posibly using dex as the ability score.


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## Wikidogre (Jul 9, 2002)

*Nevermind!!!*

I found it in the skill section, i thought i had seen it, boy do i feel like a sheep!!

thanks anyways!


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## quindia (Jul 10, 2002)

Well, this looks disappointing...

http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/showarticle.php?threadid=8670&postid=194070.

Looks there will not be an official d20 MSH game as they intend to follow the path of their SAGA system and return to a diceless system. Too bad.

You can still check out Paragon's MSH conversion guidelines here:

http://www.rpghoard.com/cgi-bin/arcdb.cgi?cat=15&sec=9


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## Cwylric (Jul 16, 2002)

For those who are interested, I am starting to post notes from a brand new Paragon campaign on the official blog.  If a weird hybrid of Unbreakable, X Files, Call of Cthulhu, X-Men, and The Mummy Returns appeals to you, check out:
http://cwylric.diaryland.com/


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## bolen (Jul 16, 2002)

I thought someone stated that Marvel and wizards were in negotiations


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## quindia (Jul 16, 2002)

As far as I know, it was never Wizards. There was a third party company trying to obtain the rights - I think they got close, but alas it's not to be - to make a d20 Marvel game, but that appears to have fallen through. Marvel's newest RPG incarnation will be from the folks who wrote the Paranoia game and apparently will resemble the Saga system in that it will be diceless (d0?).


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## Horacio (Jul 20, 2002)

So no D20 Marvel 

Well, let's look at that conversion...


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## Neo (Jul 20, 2002)

quindia said:
			
		

> *As far as I know, it was never Wizards. There was a third party company trying to obtain the rights - I think they got close, but alas it's not to be - to make a d20 Marvel game, but that appears to have fallen through. Marvel's newest RPG incarnation will be from the folks who wrote the Paranoia game and apparently will resemble the Saga system in that it will be diceless (d0?). *




Paranoia?  so Games Workshop now have the Marvel License? seems odd they are more your tabletop Wargames kinda folks than RPG's... especially these days.

Still if they could do as good a job of Marvel as they did of Judge Dredd way back....it wouldn;t be all bad.... but i would have thought if GW have the license there would be some tabletop combat game and a mass of expensive miniatures to go with it.


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## quindia (Jul 20, 2002)

That was West End Games, not Games Workshop, unless WEG was part of GW? Also, I get the impression it is the creator of Paranoia, not the publisher (i.e. the Gary Gygax or Monte Cook of Paranoia, not the TSR or WOtC).


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## John Lorenzsonn (Jul 22, 2002)

*Warning! Shameless plug ahead!*

There's a newly released(Friday, that is) d20 supers game out there by the name of _Deeds Not Words_ at the following address:
www.allforart.com/cryptosnarkgames/ .  The final version of the document should be shipping by tomorrow.  It's a PDF, 300+ pages in length.  The site has plenty of promo material, I recommend y'all check it out.


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## bolen (Jul 23, 2002)

and my good friend has another system out at


http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=230

It is quite good as well


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## javadragon (Jul 23, 2002)

*[Deeds Not Words] I love it so Far*

I must say that this is a really meaty game (first book is 318 pages) jam packed with everything you need to play a supers game. To see more of My comments check out the thread http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18516  . I'm planning to do a full review later on.


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## Cwylric (Sep 16, 2002)

*Paragon 2.0 and V:2020 1.0 Released!*

For those who are interested, Paragon 2.0 Final and Vancouver: 2020 1.0 Final have just been released and can be obtained at www.rpghoard.com in the Systems - Miscellaneous section.

For those who haven't heard of it before, Paragon is a 104 page tome with systems for creating and playing superhuman characters in a modern or post-modern setting, using a variation on the d20 system (you may remember it, in its earlier incarnation, as d20 Supers).  It has new races, classes (normal and prestige), skills, feats (lots), and over sixty powers, each with three power levels and many variations, based on Amplifiers and Reducers.

Vancouver: 2020 is Paragon's premiere character and shared universe campaign sourcebook.  Clocking in at 120 pages, with a gorgeous full color cover and b&w interior art, this is a compendium of 50 characters, world information, and rules updates (for those still using older versions of Paragon).

As usual, up-to-the-minute information about both Paragon and Vancouver: 2020 can be found on the author's weblog, at:
http://cwylric.diaryland.com/


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## Turgenev (Sep 17, 2002)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> *
> 
> One of the first Superhero RPGs, Villains & Vigilantes, had levels. Had a very big following at one time. *




V&V was *THE* first superhero rpg and I would go as far to say it is the original _"d20"_ supers game.  It indeed has levels, but no classes. A d20 supers game has to be _really_ good before I switch from the V&V system. 

Cheers,
Tim


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## EarthsShadow (Sep 20, 2002)

I thought Heroes Unlimited or Champions came first, then Marvel.


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## Turgenev (Sep 20, 2002)

EarthsShadow said:
			
		

> *I thought Heroes Unlimited or Champions came first, then Marvel. *




V&V was first published in 1979 and again in 1982 (2nd edition). Champions was next in 1981 and Heroes Unlimited in 1984. Then Marvel and Mayfair's DC Heroes which came out around the same time (1985 I think). My god, I can't believe that I own all of these games. 

Cheers,
Tim


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## EarthsShadow (Sep 20, 2002)

I own all of them but V&V, but everyone I know only plays d20 so I am using d20 systems for now, until the d20 buzz dies down (yeah right).


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## Turgenev (Sep 21, 2002)

EarthsShadow said:
			
		

> *I own all of them but V&V, but everyone I know only plays d20 so I am using d20 systems for now, until the d20 buzz dies down (yeah right).   *




<plug>
You could always go here and buy a copy of V&V (it is only $8 US). 
</plug> 

I'm having a ball playing D&D, but I still like to switch systems now and then to avoid burn-out. I've just had my group try a small adventure with the V&V rules and they had a fun time (the rules are similar to d20 in some areas and not so in others so it wasn't that much of a switch ). 

With all that said, I might check out Mutants and Masterminds when it is released. I liked what I saw in the promo pdf.

Cheers,
Tim


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## EarthsShadow (Sep 21, 2002)

Has anyone converted any Marvel super heroes over to any of the d20 super hero systems?  If so, post away on this thread so we can keep them in one location.  This way, we can compare how the different systems come out in producing the same character.


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## Corinth (Sep 21, 2002)

Check out the DNW threads.  One of them is an ongoing Marvel conversion thread.


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## jpayne1138 (Sep 30, 2002)

bolen said:
			
		

> *So how many D20 Super games will come out? *




1) Mutants and Masterminds (Green Ronin)

2) Four Color to Fantasy (Natural 20 Press)

3) Silver Age Sentinels (Guardians of Order)

4) Paragon / Vancouver: 2020 (publisher?)

5) Vigilance (Vigilance Press)

6) Godlike (Pagan)

7) The Foundation (Team Frog)

8) Deeds Not Words (Cryptosnark Games)

9) Comic Book Super-Heroes (Black Drink Creations)

10) d20 Supers (Natural 20 Press) --same as FCF?

Did I get some of these wrong?  Are there more?


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## Moreganis (Oct 1, 2002)

jpayne1138 the only one you missed that i know of, and of course it has not been advertised yet. is


Modern Myths from Geek Gods Games


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## Carjack (Oct 20, 2002)

*Not quite...*



			
				Turgenev said:
			
		

> *
> 
> V&V was THE first superhero rpg and I would go as far to say it is the original "d20" supers game.  It indeed has levels, but no classes. A d20 supers game has to be really good before I switch from the V&V system.
> 
> ...




Actually, SUPERHERO 2044 from Gamescience was the first super rpg, releasing in 1978, a year before the first edition of V&V, which was a very sloppy edition that really got cleaned up nicely in the second edition in 1982.
 But why oh why is nobody talking about Silver Age Sentinels D20?  Go to www.guardiansorder.com and go download the fastplay rules for heavens sake.  It does take a lot of liberties  with the d20 system, but it is a heckuva great game and can easily do whatever you need it to do.  If Mutants & Masterminds is anywhere close to it in quality, then I will be impressed.


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## LoPaC (Oct 23, 2002)

Is anything going to be made for D20 Modern with the super-hero in mind?


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## Turgenev (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: Not quite...*



			
				Carjack said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, SUPERHERO 2044 from Gamescience was the first super rpg, releasing in 1978,
> *




You're right. I forgot all about Superhero 2044. I'll amend my original statement to say, "V&V was THE first superhero rpg _to include rules for super-powers._" 



> *
> a year before the first edition of V&V, which was a very sloppy edition that really got cleaned up nicely in the second edition in 1982.
> *




When most people are talking about V&V, they are referring to the 2nd edition. Course I know of one group that still plays 1st edition V&V to this day. Sounds familiar doesn't it.  _Plus ça change, plus c'est toujour la même chose._

Cheers,
Tim
who has thought of implementing the Godlike  rules for d20 supers in a Pulp Heroes game.


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## Corinth (Oct 23, 2002)

LoPaC said:
			
		

> *Is anything going to be made for D20 Modern with the super-hero in mind? *



When last I checked, Scott Lynch had plans for a variant of _Deeds Not Words_ that used _d20 Modern_ as its foundation instead of the usual D&D-dervived SRD material.


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