# My Thoughts During RotS [SPOILERS]



## Cthulhudrew (May 19, 2005)

Really good movie- almost makes up for the first two. 

Here are some of the thoughts that ran through my mind as I watched:

Wow- What kind of master plan involves getting yourself kidnapped and trapped on a ship that's about to crash planetside? Time to shoot your strategist, methinks.

So, princess, do you always wear your makeup to bed?

So, Yoda, what you're saying is that, in order to be a Jedi, you have to be an unfeeling, uncaring, detached, withdrawn, utterly logical Vulcan? And that's a _good_ thing? 

Plagius? What's next, Faminious? Deathicus? I guess that the Mario Brothers old foe must have been a Sith? (Darth Wario?)

Noooo! Not the midichlorians!

"Shot to the heart, and you're to blame; you give droids, a bad name..."

"No, Threepio, there's nothing you can do for me." Dramatic knuckle bite and turn away from the camera.

There's got to be a really great market for the robotic limb trade in the Republic.

Lucas: "Natalie, Padme is really torn in this scene. I want you to improvise her pain." 
Portman: "What should I say?" 
Lucas: "I don't know. Just use some cliched romantic line or something."
Portman: "Got it." 
Portman to Christianson: "You're breaking my heart. You're going down a path I can't follow."
Lucas: "Aaand, cut! I love it. Now make me hate it."

(During the final battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin)- When did they recast Christoper Lambert as Anakin? Guess that explains the beheading earlier.

Okay, end it already? Did I accidentally stumble into a showing of "Return of the King?"

Anyway, all kidding aside, I really enjoyed this one. A lot of great stuff happening, and, like I said, almost makes up for 1 and 2. Sweet.


----------



## ShadowDenizen (May 19, 2005)

General Grievous: "Bwah-hah-hah! My devious plan to ESCAPE is nearly complete!"
(Great plan, there, General.)


----------



## Dagger75 (May 19, 2005)

What keeps getting me.

 Jedi:  Feelings lead to the dark side.

 Yoda: Search your feelings and you will find Anakin.


 Clone Trooper army are those jedi hunters everybody was wondering about.  Then how come in Episode 4-5-6 the stormtroopers can't hit anything.


----------



## Trainz (May 19, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> What keeps getting me.
> 
> Jedi:  Feelings lead to the dark side.
> 
> Yoda: Search your feelings and you will find Anakin.




Yeah... weird.



> Clone Trooper army are those jedi hunters everybody was wondering about.  Then how come in Episode 4-5-6 the stormtroopers can't hit anything.




Cause they ain't clone troopers ?

Every individual clone trooper is a replica of the greatest bounty hunter in the galaxy (who by himself manages to off a Jedi in Ep. 2), whereas storm troopers are little more than brainwashed grunts.

There are much bigger inconsistencies in Star Wars, but this one ain't one of them.


----------



## John Crichton (May 19, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> What keeps getting me.
> 
> Jedi:  Feelings lead to the dark side.
> 
> Yoda: Search your feelings and you will find Anakin.



No, attachments lead to the dark side. And when they say "search your feelings" they are not referring to emotions but instead they are referencing feeling through the Force. Like a blind man using his hands.

That's the way I took it.

I think it's a good example of how blind and arrogant the Jedi became. The war provided just enough distraction so that no one reigned in Anakin. The only reason he was trained was because of a the promise to a dying master by a dedicated padawan. That and Anakin was a very insecure person who already had strong attachments that he could not distance himself from. He had already experienced true feelings that none of the Jedi ever really did.


----------



## d20Dwarf (May 19, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> No, attachments lead to the dark side. And when they say "search your feelings" they are not referring to emotions but instead they are referencing feeling through the Force. Like a blind man using his hands.




Ok, here's one for you then. 

Anakin: "Yes, someone close, someone I care for."

Yoda: "Attachment leads to the Dark Side, do not mourn those we lose, do not miss them."

Later on...

Yoda: "Miss you, I will, Chewbacca."




I loved the movie, btw, that line just confused me a bit.


----------



## Dagger75 (May 19, 2005)

KK, I'll give you the clone troopers grunt thing, didn't think of that. Still tired.

 Me and my roommate had another thought.  Bail said to memory wipe C-3PO but not R2.  Okay so R2 knows somethings.  Now R2 has met Yoda.  So when he runs into him on Dagabah and shocks Yoda after he steals a lantern. Is R2 just being a mean and spitful little bastard?  What a jerk.


----------



## Trainz (May 19, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> KK, I'll give you the clone troopers grunt thing, didn't think of that. Still tired.




Apology accepted, Dagger75. 



> Me and my roommate had another thought.  Bail said to memory wipe C-3PO but not R2.  Okay so R2 knows somethings.  Now R2 has met Yoda.  So when he runs into him on Dagabah and shocks Yoda after he steals a lantern. Is R2 just being a mean and spitful little bastard?  What a jerk.




See ? I told you there were quite obvious inconsistencies. This one I caught immediately too.

We _could_ assume that when they wiped C3P0, the tech on Alderaan said "Hey boss, did senator Organa wanted that astromech wiped too ?" to which the chief tech could answer "I don't remember... sure, why not. For good measure", but then I guess the tech also wiped Artoo's memory of how to use his rocket boosters...

... plenty inconsistencies. Plenty.

Gonna see it again tomorrow.


----------



## John Crichton (May 19, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Me and my roommate had another thought. Bail said to memory wipe C-3PO but not R2. Okay so R2 knows somethings. Now R2 has met Yoda. So when he runs into him on Dagabah and shocks Yoda after he steals a lantern. Is R2 just being a mean and spitful little bastard? What a jerk.



R2 has always been a childlike character.  Brave and resourceful but still childlike and easily hurt.  And what happens when you try and take a child's toy/belonging away from it?  The child wants it back.  Now.  Also, R2 has no real attachment to Yoda.  His attachment is to the Skywalkers and Obi-wan by than extension.


----------



## Gomez (May 19, 2005)

Talk of the Clone Troopers got me thinking. Aren't they nothing more than slaves? Conditioned to obey, bought for, there only life is being a solider. 

But in Episode One, Amadla was shocked to hear that Anakin was a slave. But in Episode 2, "Oh here are the tens of thousands of slaves you ordered." And not a peep out of anyone about it. They just say. "Gee thanks alot! We really need those."


----------



## John Crichton (May 19, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> ... plenty inconsistencies. Plenty.



There were some but if you look closely you'll find that they really aren't.  I bet that I can answer most of the "inconsistancies" that most folks point out in the films.  Been doing it for years and I ain't gonna stop now.  

Of course, there are some that there is no explaination for.  Just not as many as one might think.  Lucas can't write dialogue to save his life but he is good at plotting.


----------



## John Crichton (May 19, 2005)

Gomez said:
			
		

> Talk of the Clone Troopers got me thinking. Aren't they nothing more than slaves? Conditioned to obey, bought for, there only life is being a solider.
> 
> But in Episode One, Amadla was shocked to hear that Anakin was a slave. But in Episode 2, "Oh here are the tens of thousands of slaves you ordered." And not a peep out of anyone about it. They just say. "Gee thanks alot! We really need those."



 And you saw what happened because of it.  Democracy died.  They willingly accepted an answer to their problem:  Either use the Clone Troopers or lose the war before it starts.

Twas an omen of bad things to come.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 19, 2005)

ShadowDenizen said:
			
		

> General Grievous: "Bwah-hah-hah! My devious plan to ESCAPE is nearly complete!"
> (Great plan, there, General.)




Yeah- That's a guy I'd love to follow into battle! 

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that he runs away *a lot*!


----------



## DarkSoldier (May 20, 2005)

My thought:

Yoda vs. Sidious. Sidious starts in (very) high guard. Yoda goes _high_, rather than going _low_ and taking Sidious off at the knees, leading into a prolonged battle that causes massive collateral damage and nearly kills Yoda.


----------



## Welverin (May 20, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Clone Trooper army are those jedi hunters everybody was wondering about.  Then how come in Episode 4-5-6 the stormtroopers can't hit anything.




They're the bad guys and thus they fall victim to hero plot protection.



			
				Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Yeah- That's a guy I'd love to follow into battle!
> 
> Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that he runs away *a lot*!




Well seeing as how Mace *comes right out and says it* I would hope not, hell Mace even called him a coward.



			
				DarkSoldier said:
			
		

> My thought:
> 
> Yoda vs. Sidious. Sidious starts in (very) high guard. Yoda goes _high_, rather than going _low_ and taking Sidious off at the knees, leading into a prolonged battle that causes massive collateral damage and nearly kills Yoda.




Well the whole rise of the empire could have been stopped by any of three people at four times, Padme could have prevented things by not calling for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Vallorum, Jar-jar could have avoided things by not suggesting Palpatine get the emergency executive powers, and Mace had two opportunities to put an end of things, if he had just avoided falling into the old villain trap of talking too much, first by killing Dooku on Geonosis or by killing Palpatine. Now the first two you can dismiss by saying someone else easily could have been manipulated into doing them, the third would have been of questionable effectiveness (it would have stop the clone war before it started, but that likely would have only delayed Palpatine), but the last would have been unquestionably effective.


----------



## Jdvn1 (May 20, 2005)

Some of my thoughts:

... That was a _very_ conveniently placed runway.

How come no one notices the evil people?

"Can you hear me?  Can you hear me now?  Can you hear me now?..."

Okay, you just killed your wife so you're probably very distraught.  What do you say?
"Yes!  Woo!"
Hold it-- cut, cut.  Distraught, remember.
"Oh, right, sorry."
And... go.
"Adrianne!"
Cut, cut!  Wrong movie.
"Noooo!"
Perfect!  Can't get much more cliched than that.

And...
"... I've created a monster!"[/Dr. Frankenstein]


----------



## CrusaderX (May 20, 2005)

My thoughts during RotS:

Wow!  Natalie Portman has never looked hotter!  

Seriously, she looked absolutely gorgeous in this movie.  I'd go to the dark side for her, for sure.


----------



## Wormwood (May 20, 2005)

Obi-Wan: "Only Sith deal in absolutes!"

Obi-Wan, one minute later: "The Chancellor is Evil!"

I guess he was referring to a nuanced, shades-of-of-grey type of evil there. Nothing absolute.


----------



## Dagger75 (May 21, 2005)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Obi-Wan: "Only Sith deal in absolutes!"
> 
> Obi-Wan, one minute later: "The Chancellor is Evil!"
> 
> I guess he was referring to a nuanced, shades-of-of-grey type of evil there. Nothing absolute.





I was taken back by that as well.  I thought Jedi did see things as Good and Evil, the Sith and the Dark Side would be the shades of grey type of people. 

 And what does the Republic do with all that Military Hardware they seem to mothball every 3 years.  I mean the big ships in Episode 2 what happened to them all?  Why did they change them?  Why does lame stuff like this bother me?


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (May 21, 2005)

Does Taoism advocate being non-emotional about everything, the way Yoda councilled Anakin to be?
  If so, perhaps Lucas is mocking Taoism?

  Because, IMO, the Jedi were defeated and destroyed because they eschewed emotion and caring.  The Emperor won because he embraced emotion:  it was the deciding factor in his battle with Yoda, I thought.  
  And it seemed to me that when they trained Luke, Obi-Wan and Yoda constantly talked about feelings and the need for feelings ... like they had realized that their former approach was a failure, and they wished a more well rounded approach to the Force (as the Emperor might say.)

  Could someone explain Taoism to me, and what it espouses?  How the Jedi subscribed to it?  How they did, or did not subscribe to it for Luke in Episodes 4, 5, and 6?
  Did their belief in Taoism take them down?  What happened?

  And yes, obviously, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were hypocrites.  That was made painfully clear.  And the characters were made to suffer painfully, as their order was annihilated and they were driven into permanent exile, and we got to see that pain, too.


----------



## bodhi (May 21, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Wow- What kind of master plan involves getting yourself kidnapped and trapped on a ship that's about to crash planetside? Time to shoot your strategist, methinks.



I was thinking the same thing, then I thought this might be something Palpatine has foreseen. A (very) risky situation, but one which moves Anakin that much further down the path to the Dark Side. A gamble he had to take to trade up his apprentice. Or maybe not much of a gamble, if he's foreseen how it all happens.



			
				Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> So, princess, do you always wear your makeup to bed?



I thought the pearls on her shoulders had to be uncomfortable.


----------



## bodhi (May 21, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Every individual clone trooper is a replica of the greatest bounty hunter in the galaxy (who by himself manages to off a Jedi in Ep. 2), whereas storm troopers are little more than brainwashed grunts.




I was waiting for the analog tape/photocopy metaphor. You make a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, and quality goes to hell.


----------



## Welverin (May 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Some of my thoughts:
> 
> ... That was a _very_ conveniently placed runway.




More importantly, WHY THE HELL IS THERE A BLOODY RUNWAY! You know, when every ship in star wars ever shown is clearly vtol capable.



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> And what does the Republic do with all that Military Hardware they seem to mothball every 3 years.  I mean the big ships in Episode 2 what happened to them all?  Why did they change them?




What I find odd about it is how the technology level is static, but yet they keep coming up with new technology, but it's not more advanced so why was it created?



> Why does lame stuff like this bother me?




Can't help you with this one.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> And it seemed to me that when they trained Luke, Obi-Wan and Yoda constantly talked about feelings and the need for feelings ... like they had realized that their former approach was a failure, and they wished a more well rounded approach to the Force (as the Emperor might say.)




Or Qui-gon, for that matter.



			
				bodhi said:
			
		

> I thought the pearls on her shoulders had to be uncomfortable.




I kept wondering how she slept in that thing myself.


----------



## Michael Tree (May 21, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Does Taoism advocate being non-emotional about everything, the way Yoda councilled Anakin to be?
> ...
> Could someone explain Taoism to me, and what it espouses?  How the Jedi subscribed to it?  How they did, or did not subscribe to it for Luke in Episodes 4, 5, and 6?
> Did their belief in Taoism take them down?  What happened?



The Jedi code seems to be based much more on Buddhism than on Taoism, though the two are similar in many ways.

Taoism teaches a person to go with the flow, to accept and embrace change.  Too much intellectual thought, too much striving, and too much stubbornness, force and desire make a person lose contact with the Tao. Two of Taoism's fundementals are intuition and flexibility.    It uses water as a prominent symbol: Water flows around obstacles, rather than trying to force its way through them, yet it is the strongest element, able to erode anything given time.  The Jedi "letting themselves go" and giving in to the force is very Taoist, as is their trusting in their feelings, rather than trying to intellectually work through everything. 

There are also very strong elements of Buddhism in the Jedi.  One of its core tenets is that desire and attachment inevitably bring pain, confusion, and conflict, and blind you to the world.  Rise above desire and attachment, and center yourself to clear yourself of all your preconceptions and emotional blindspots, and think and feel clearly.  The aim isn't to become a coldly logical vulcan, as some have suggested on ROTS threads, but to become a calm and peaceful person who acts according to his wisdom and clear perceptions,  unlike people who struggle with their conflicting desires and respond in knee-jerk reactions according to their preconceptions.

These are gross simplifications, of course, and there are a lot of different forms of Taoism and Buddhism that differ, but these should be sufficient to understand the origins of the Jedi anyway.  (They're oversimplifications, but Lucas based Jedi on oversimplifications, so they fits.  )


----------



## Hopping Vampire (May 21, 2005)

when Padme dies after giving birth. She lost her will to live, the droid said. thats a pretty lame death excuse, IMO. Not because a girl who looks to weigh about 98 pounds soaking wet just gave birth to 2 humongous twins after being force choked and thrown down, but she lost her will to live. They shouldve checked her pockets.


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 21, 2005)

Hopping Vampire said:
			
		

> when Padme dies after giving birth. She lost her will to live, the droid said. thats a pretty lame death excuse, IMO. Not because a girl who looks to weigh about 98 pounds soaking wet just gave birth to 2 humongous twins after being force choked and thrown down, but she lost her will to live. They shouldve checked her pockets.



I say it was incompetence on the medical droid's part. Damn MD unit couldn't diagnose, so it made up some story about "losing the will to live". Or something like that.

I gave it an 8. Much better than either previous prequel, but still flawed, especially when it came to Padme's character and some of the dialogue. 

Demiurge out.


----------



## Michael Tree (May 21, 2005)

Hopping Vampire said:
			
		

> when Padme dies after giving birth. She lost her will to live, the droid said. thats a pretty lame death excuse, IMO. Not because a girl who looks to weigh about 98 pounds soaking wet just gave birth to 2 humongous twins after being force choked and thrown down, but she lost her will to live. They shouldve checked her pockets.



Losing the will to live is a perfectly acceptable event in Star Wars melodrama.  What bugs me is that Lucas hits us over the head with it by having the droid say it!.  A simple "she'd fading" would have said exactly the same thing, in a much more dramatic and unstilted way.  "Show, don't tell", Lucas, "Show don't tell."


----------



## Thotas (May 21, 2005)

On the "Only Sith deal in absolutes" subject ... dividing the Force into a dark side and a bright side is an absolute.  Any sentence that starts with "only" is an absolute.


----------



## haakon1 (May 21, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Clone Trooper army are those jedi hunters everybody was wondering about.  Then how come in Episode 4-5-6 the stormtroopers can't hit anything.




I SO have an answer for that question.

In 3, the officers are clones.  Commander Cody, for example.

At the end of 3, the officers are regular humans.  In 4, 5, and 6, the officers are humans.  The stormtroopers do NOT all have the same voice.  And there are imperial humans who don't appear to be officers, or are at best junior officers -- for example, the guys who give clearance to shuttles and the guys who work the guns on the Death Star.

And Leia says to Luke: "Kinda short for a stormtrooper, aren't you?"  Implying that, while most stormtroopers are big guys, she's not shocked at the concept of them not being identical.

Also, we know that Biggs and Han Solo went to the Academy -- admittedly, I'd guess the Academy trains officers, not grunts.

My answer nevertheless: in 4, 5, and 6, the Emperor has (mostly, perhaps) replaced clones with regular humans.  The way I played it, in the old West End Games SW campaign I played in as a scout trooper, stormtroopers and other imperials are volunteers, out to exercise humanity's Force-given rights as the dominant species in the galaxy.  We need to keep those rebel scum down, or the Wookies and Mon Calamari and Jar-Jarians will take our jobs and ravage our livestock!  Ever see a non-human in the imperial military in 4, 5, or 6 -- AKA The Empire -- nope, I thought not.


----------



## haakon1 (May 21, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> We could assume that when they wiped C3P0, the tech on Alderaan said "Hey boss, did senator Organa wanted that astromech wiped too ?" to which the chief tech could answer "I don't remember... sure, why not. For good measure", but then I guess the tech also wiped Artoo's memory of how to use his rocket boosters...




Darn, and I was getting all excited at the continuity fix of remembering that they had to fix some things about C-3PO:
- him not remembering Tatooine
- him not remembering Darth
- him saying: my first job was working with Binary Load Lifters
- him saying: my owner was Captain Antilles

Well, I'm glad they fixed all that, and I don't really care that R2 forgot he earlier had CGI that let him fly.


----------



## haakon1 (May 21, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that he runs away *a lot*!




Mace Windu commented to Palpatine about General Grievous' nack for running away, so it's an intentional part of the character.


----------



## haakon1 (May 21, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> Natalie Portman has never looked hotter!




Dude, there were 4 good things about Attack of the Clones:
- Yoda's fight
- Clone troopers in space Hueys smelling napalm in the morning
- Padme in her white outfit
- Padme in her TORN white outfit

Much hotter in 2 was she . . . but always pretty hot, yes, yes.


----------



## haakon1 (May 21, 2005)

*And one more thing . . .*

My thought at the end of my second viewing:

Hehe, Jar-Jar survived.  Lucas gave us all back-seat-driver nerds the finger by not giving him a gorey death scene.  Good for Lucas!


----------



## Agamon (May 21, 2005)

Michael Tree said:
			
		

> Losing the will to live is a perfectly acceptable event in Star Wars melodrama.  What bugs me is that Lucas hits us over the head with it by having the droid say it!.  A simple "she'd fading" would have said exactly the same thing, in a much more dramatic and unstilted way.  "Show, don't tell", Lucas, "Show don't tell."




Yeah, the same could be said for Padme's "You're braking my heart!" statement.  Duh!  They made the movie PG13, but a lot of the dialogue was written for 5-year olds.

Awesome movie, despite that and a few other things.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 21, 2005)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> Mace Windu commented to Palpatine about General Grievous' nack for running away, so it's an intentional part of the character.




True, but I guess my surprise comes not from the fact that he lives up to his character as described by Windu, but that anyone would willingly follow such a complete coward into battle, knowing he won't be there to see the thing through when it gets sticky.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 21, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> True, but I guess my surprise comes not from the fact that he lives up to his character as described by Windu, but that anyone would willingly follow such a complete coward into battle, knowing he won't be there to see the thing through when it gets sticky.



 So your surprised that droids would follow him into battle...?

He had NO living troops. And if you pay attention, you'll see the Separatist leaders weren't exactly happy with him running away all the time.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> So your surprised that droids would follow him into battle...?




Waiting for someone to bring that up. 



> He had NO living troops. And if you pay attention, you'll see the Separatist leaders weren't exactly happy with him running away all the time.




I guess, but it seems to me they could have found someone else, then. They are the Trade Federation, after all- you'd think they would have some fundage to hire a new general.

Anyway, it doesn't really bother me all that much. I really liked the movie. I just was having fun pointing out some quirky little bits that struck me funny.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 21, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I guess, but it seems to me they could have found someone else, then. They are the Trade Federation, after all- you'd think they would have some fundage to hire a new general.




Well, with Grievous the Banking Guild MADE him. At least sort of. After forcing him into an 'accidental' shuttle crash, they made the droid body for him. Of course, they ALSO made him a bit more controllable. 



> I just was having fun pointing out some quirky little bits that struck me funny.




Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 21, 2005)

Does anyone out there play Star Wars Galaxies? Because I'm really curious if there's a cybernetics profession in that game? After this movie, I think that would be the perfect niche market to make a fortune in...


----------



## Wolf72 (May 22, 2005)

I thought Vader's "Noooo" was kinda silly, made me laugh inside.

I would think that the Empire still used clones, but maybe they tried a new model (err donor) and the technique wasn't as good (did anything happen to Kamino?  But the 'hero' shield is just as good an explanation) ... supplemented with normal human recruits (I like the idea of both being around) ...

The clones turning on everyone was kinda creepy, that's serious brainwashing/programming there (I also like the idea of some rogue clones too)

I did like how changing the signal at the Jedi temple left things open for any remaining Jedi to flee and head to ground until things improve (all sorts of open plots there for SW RPG ... don't want to many Jedi to gather lest they draw the attention of Vader/Empire).


I was distracted for a moment when Bail Organa arrived at the temple, was that Jedi with him or did he come from behind the troopers trying to escape?

all in all, a good time.


----------



## Wolf72 (May 22, 2005)

ooh another question, 

Palpy/Sidious: was he Darth Plague's (whatever his name was) student?  I'm guessing he killed him b/c it was a step up in power.

Do you think it was Darth Plague that helped create the vergance in the force (or set the plan into motion) to create an ultimate sith ... and have that person be his new apprentice (well then Palpy thought "hey, that means I've gotta go ... you first boss")


----------



## WayneLigon (May 22, 2005)

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> Palpy/Sidious: was he Darth Plague's (whatever his name was) student? I'm guessing he killed him b/c it was a step up in power.




Sideous was indeed Darth Plagus' apprentice according to _Labrynth of Evil_.


----------



## Nuclear Platypus (May 22, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> True, but I guess my surprise comes not from the fact that he lives up to his character as described by Windu, but that anyone would willingly follow such a complete coward into battle, knowing he won't be there to see the thing through when it gets sticky.




Happened all the time with Cobra Commander, the leader of a 'ruthless terrorist organization'. 

Odd how much of a bad mamma jamma they made Grievous in Clone Wars.


----------



## Orius (May 22, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> Ok, here's one for you then.
> 
> Anakin: "Yes, someone close, someone I care for."
> 
> ...




Maybe Yoda had just read those New Jedi Order books... *ducks*


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2005)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> Happened all the time with Cobra Commander, the leader of a 'ruthless terrorist organization'.
> 
> Odd how much of a bad mamma jamma they made Grievous in Clone Wars.



My theory is this: George let the writers of Clone Wars see Greivous' character design, abilities, and know that he's the military commander of the Sepratists. 

He didn't let them read the script of Episode III.

Demiurge out.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 22, 2005)

Well, everytime we see Greivous before Sith, he's up against the second tier Jedi. Those lightsabers he has aren't from Masters. He's good...but definitely a coward when up against more than he knows he can handle.

i.e. Anakin and Obi-Wan

And on the note of Yoda's "miss you I will" to Chewie...that's a completely different thing than missing someone AFTER DEATH. He's telling Anakin to let go of people and accept that death is a natural part of life. To Chewie, he's just saying goodbye, not telling him he's dead.


----------



## Ibram (May 22, 2005)

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> I was distracted for a moment when Bail Organa arrived at the temple, was that Jedi with him or did he come from behind the troopers trying to escape?
> 
> all in all, a good time.




that jedi was trying to escape...

FYI that was Lucas' son, or so i heard


----------



## Nuclear Platypus (May 22, 2005)

I don't think he let anyone read the script, not all of it anyways, and splices it all at the end. 

I dunno. I think Lucas was trying to write himself out of a corner *cough* Boba Fett *cough* 

Three of the 5 Jedi Grievous fought (at 1 time) were Masters (Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti and Aayla Secura), not that it proves how skilled they were, tho holding all of them off at once without the benefit of the Force? While him chasing down Shaak-Ti at the end of Clone Wars was definitely cat n mouse, his brief encounter with Mace Windu resulted in getting his chassis / chest Force crushed as a parting gift which might explain any fear of him. 

But like Darth Maul before him, Grievous was something of a waste.


----------



## Darrin Drader (May 22, 2005)

I must be the only person around here who really dug Grievous. Even the fact that he was always bravely running away had a certain charm.


----------



## haakon1 (May 22, 2005)

*Grievous Fan Club*



			
				Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I must be the only person around here who really dug Grievous. Even the fact that he was always bravely running away had a certain charm.




Nope.  I'm a fan.  I dig the fact that there's a creature inside, when it seemed like a droid.  It's sort of foreshadowing of Darth.

And, neither here nor there, it reminded of a new season Dr. Who (one of the very few Dr. Who's I've seen) in which it was revealed (perhaps not a relevation to others) that Dahloks are not robots -- there's a little, withered, deformed, genetically engineered evil dude in each one.


----------



## DM_Matt (May 22, 2005)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Obi-Wan: "Only Sith deal in absolutes!"
> 
> Obi-Wan, one minute later: "The Chancellor is Evil!"
> 
> I guess he was referring to a nuanced, shades-of-of-grey type of evil there. Nothing absolute.




It was even worse than that...it was more like:

Anakin: "You are either with me, or with my enemy."

Obi-Wan: "Only Sith deal in absolutes!"

Anakin (Paraphrased):  Support my friend the Chancellor

Obi-Wan, one minute later: "The Chancellor is Evil!"

Anakin: (Paraprased):  Depands on your perspective.

Obi-Wan (Paraphrased):  If thats how you feel, I'm gunna kill you.

_*snip* No politics, please. You've been here long enough to know the rules. -Darkness_


----------



## Flyspeck23 (May 22, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I must be the only person around here who really dug Grievous. Even the fact that he was always bravely running away had a certain charm.




Grievous was cool. And a much more interesting character than Darth Maul (IMHO).


----------



## Welverin (May 22, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I guess, but it seems to me they could have found someone else, then. They are the Trade Federation, after all- you'd think they would have some fundage to hire a new general.




And when exactly did they have the time for that? Things moved pretty fast in this, movie, other than transit time, which is always fudged in SW (scifi my ass), one thing happens after another.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> My theory is this: George let the writers of Clone Wars see Greivous' character design, abilities, and know that he's the military commander of the Sepratists.
> 
> He didn't let them read the script of Episode III.




If you listen to the commentary on the CW DVD you'll hear Genndy explain that when George asked them to include Grievous in the shorts very little was known about him (basically just the design) and they had to make most of it up.


----------



## CrusaderX (May 22, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Well, everytime we see Greivous before Sith, he's up against the second tier Jedi. Those lightsabers he has aren't from Masters. He's good...but definitely a coward when up against more than he knows he can handle.
> 
> i.e. Anakin and Obi-Wan




Yeah, this is even explained in the Clone Wars cartoon.  When Greivous is dueling/training with Dooku, Dooku says that Greivous is a good lightsaber fighter, but that he'll have to be even better to take on someone like Obi-Wan.

I really liked the Greivous character as well.  And his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan doesn't show how weak Greivous is, but rather how tough Obi-Wan is.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 22, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I must be the only person around here who really dug Grievous. Even the fact that he was always bravely running away had a certain charm.




Oh, I loved Grievous. He's just a fun, cheesy, and cowardly villain. 



			
				DM_Matt said:
			
		

> *snip political stuff* -Darkness




_..._

It is MUCH MUCH more a parallel of _..._ any dictator. I bet you could apply those quotes to Julius Ceasar and they'd fit just as well. Take it as you will, but thankfully, Lucas has a story that is very much like Tolkien's LotR where it can be applied to many, many different times. And none of them are really correct.


----------



## Michael Morris (May 22, 2005)

Cut the politicks folks - I'd hate to see this thread closed.


----------



## Wolf72 (May 22, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I must be the only person around here who really dug Grievous. Even the fact that he was always bravely running away had a certain charm.




It's just a rabbit, I nearly soiled my armor! Sir Griev-- Robin, Knight of the Old-- err Round Table   


I'm guessing Grievous was just a big bully.


----------



## Darkness (May 22, 2005)

Folks, no real-world politics, please. Thanks.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 22, 2005)

I was just glad to see Mace Windu die, I could not stand that character and if I had to deal with him I too would have went down the road to the dark side.    

I think both the Chancellor and the Jedis were corrupt, the jedi forgot their roots and enjoyed their status too much.


----------



## Meadred (May 22, 2005)

Hello,
       did anyone notice the grav stretcher that Anakin was carried in after losing his legs in the fight with Obi-Wan? Despite him losing about half of his legs, the stretcher is a snug fit?! Is it adjustable in length (and for what puprose if so) or did they pick a stretcher meant for some other, shorter race than humans?  

Anyway, good movie. Definitely makes the the whole "new" trilogy (Episode I-III) worthwhile (had my doubts after seeing CW...).

Cheers,
Meadred


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2005)

I guess I'm one of the few that found very little to redeem this movie.

R2 with the oil slick?

I guess one of the biggest things for me with this movie is the total lack of suspense. I mean, the things that are designed as tense moments... 

Yoda lives, Obi-Wan lives, Palp and Vader live... these things we know. Vader's quest to bring peace and save Padme? Maybe with a better actor, I'd care.

Vader killing the children?

The fact the Jedi are all killed by Clone Troopers, it just lacked. I thought Grievous and/or Vader were Jedi Hunters, but whatever.

It looked to me like Palpatine was CGI'd for the lightsaber duels, and all the lightsaber duels looked blurred and rushed. Nothing like the original trilogy's, let alone Maul's fight.

Space battles were horrible, they weren't exciting enough to not notice the Physics Engine was broken. The little cutter droids were just lame.

Grievous' rasping breathing... then he escapes into space? Does he breath or not?

Yoda going to fight Palp, ugh.

Vader balancing on the little droid to fight over the lava. I guess that little droid has a "Jedi Battle" subroutine that directs him to keep close to the opponent when being ridden by a Jedi.
Sure that doesn't explain Obi-Wan's control of the platform, but I guess both are just chalked up to the Force.

I also thought Padme looked bad in this movie. Her face was flushed, the makeup looked more clown like than her Ep 1 stuff. She was pregnant, sure. Even after having the kids and dying, she was still quite swollen. It would have been fun to have folks spreading rumors about how Padme got knocked up. Everyone knew she was pregnant, but no one knew of the marriage?

Yeah, anyway.

I enjoyed Yoda knocking the two guards out, but otherwise only the lone Jedi from the academy gave even a bit of thrill.

Frankly, I can't understand what people liked. The pacing was bad, the CGI was mediocre, except the Lizard, which was abysmal and insulting. The acting was bad, the plot predestined, no tension, only revulsion.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2005)

Meadred said:
			
		

> Hello,
> did anyone notice the grav stretcher that Anakin was carried in after losing his legs in the fight with Obi-Wan? Despite him losing about half of his legs, the stretcher is a snug fit?! Is it adjustable in length (and for what puprose if so) or did they pick a stretcher meant for some other, shorter race than humans?




They couldn't figure out how to cover it and keep their patient out of the rain either.

Medical technology sure was primitive a Long Time Ago.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 23, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> Yeah, this is even explained in the Clone Wars cartoon. When Greivous is dueling/training with Dooku, Dooku says that Greivous is a good lightsaber fighter, but that he'll have to be even better to take on someone like Obi-Wan.



Also, I took it as a de-powered Greivous. With the coughing and all. Mace Windu had force
crushed him shortly before (in the CW cartoons). He was not in primary condition. He was
already hurt.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 23, 2005)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I say it was incompetence on the medical droid's part. Damn MD unit couldn't diagnose, so it made up some story about "losing the will to live". Or something like that.



It's an insurance thing. 

If the MD can't diagnose properly it's programmed to say that to negate any incompetence claims.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> And on the note of Yoda's "miss you I will" to Chewie...that's a completely different thing than missing someone AFTER DEATH. He's telling Anakin to let go of people and accept that death is a natural part of life. To Chewie, he's just saying goodbye, not telling him he's dead.




Except that Padme wasn't dead yet, either. That's like saying, "well, everyone's going to die sometime, might as well accept it and let go of them now." Which doesn't seem all that nice to me. If the Jedi really feel that way, why bother being the champions of life, anyway? Makes them sound like Bleakers- or is it Dustmen?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Except that Padme wasn't dead yet, either. That's like saying, "well, everyone's going to die sometime, might as well accept it and let go of them now." Which doesn't seem all that nice to me. If the Jedi really feel that way, why bother being the champions of life, anyway? Makes them sound like Bleakers- or is it Dustmen?



 Anakin never said who he was talking about. Anakin said he saw someone close to him die. Yoda told him not to miss the dead. Why? Because you HAVE to let go. Its a simple part of life, and then add in the Force, if you don't let go you're doomed to fall to the Dark Side. So its even MORE important that Jedi learn to let go and accept certain things as the way life works.

Anakin never could, which was the root of his problem.

With Chewie, Yoda simply said goodbye. It had nothing to do with death at all. There's a difference between saying "Miss not the dead." and "Goodbye, miss you I will." One is accepting an inevitability in the way life works, and the other is simply acknowledging a friendship in a farewell.


----------



## John Crichton (May 23, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Except that Padme wasn't dead yet, either. That's like saying, "well, everyone's going to die sometime, might as well accept it and let go of them now." Which doesn't seem all that nice to me. If the Jedi really feel that way, why bother being the champions of life, anyway? Makes them sound like Bleakers- or is it Dustmen?



 Yes, it does sound cold, but that's the point.  The Jedi are all without strong attachments to loved ones.  It's pretty obvious that none of them can relate to Anakin and his strong emotions for his mom and wife.  Add in that none of them know he is married or in love.  They are simply speaking of the teachings they live by.  Bottom line is that Anakin should have never been trained as a Jedi.  Obi-wan never wanted to do it.  He did it as a last request to his dying master.  Which essentially doomed the Jedi.


----------



## Dagger75 (May 23, 2005)

Medical Technology sure is bad,  Yeah they have FTL travel, repulsors stuff but there healcare system is weak.

 I mean TODAY we can re-attach limbs.  Them, nope, easier to replace.  People dying in childbirth.  We have brought back people who have been dead for 30 minutes or more.  And poor Anakin, I hope they at least removed the bruned cloths that where melted onto him.  Maybe having an annoying septic itch for the rest of your life will make mad and evil.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 23, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Medical Technology sure is bad,  Yeah they have FTL travel, repulsors stuff but there healcare system is weak.
> 
> I mean TODAY we can re-attach limbs.  Them, nope, easier to replace.  People dying in childbirth.  We have brought back people who have been dead for 30 minutes or more.  And poor Anakin, I hope they at least removed the bruned cloths that where melted onto him.  Maybe having an annoying septic itch for the rest of your life will make mad and evil.




I'd rather have good quality bionic/cyborg replacement limbs that the originals myself.  Have you ever seen the 6 million dollar man?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I'd rather have good quality bionic/cyborg replacement limbs that the originals myself.  Have you ever seen the 6 million dollar man?




On that note, how much do you think poor Vader is worth? Considering how painful it looked, I think the Emperor went with the cheapest options...


----------



## BiggusGeekus (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> On that note, how much do you think poor Vader is worth? Considering how painful it looked, I think the Emperor went with the cheapest options...




The Dark Side is seductive and powerful, but they do have a quirky medical plan.

My big thing was that here Anakin was living with Padme, she's preggers, and Obi-Wan doesn't figure it out until the end.

It also makes me wonder a little about Yoda.  He knows, because Ani tells him, that Ani has strong feelings for someone.  Who'd he think it was?  Obi-Wan?

Also, Pademe is very forgiving of the whole genocide thing.  Ani pulls it off twice and she's still cool.  Man.  My wife would be _really_ upset if I ever did that.


----------



## wolff96 (May 23, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> The Dark Side is seductive and powerful, but they have a quirky medical plan.




Please, please, PLEASE may I poach that for my .sig?  That made me laugh so loud here at work that my co-workers all came over to see if I was okay.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (May 23, 2005)

wolff96 said:
			
		

> Please, please, PLEASE may I poach that for my .sig?  That made me laugh so loud here at work that my co-workers all came over to see if I was okay.






Sure!


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 23, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> The Dark Side is seductive and powerful, but they do have a quirky medical plan.
> 
> My big thing was that here Anakin was living with Padme, she's preggers, and Obi-Wan doesn't figure it out until the end.
> 
> ...



I know there are a lot of takes on it but I think this is why Vader was the one, when it is all said and done, the force is no longer in parts but a whole 'one force' not ying and yang, Luke never lost his passion.


----------



## Particle_Man (May 23, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It would have been fun to have folks spreading rumors about how Padme got knocked up. Everyone knew she was pregnant, but no one knew of the marriage?




Maybe everyone thought it was one of those "son of no father" deals.


----------



## KidCthulhu (May 23, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It would have been fun to have folks spreading rumors about how Padme got knocked up. Everyone knew she was pregnant, but no one knew of the marriage?




Apparently there was a big sign on the Galactic Senate bathroom wall.  "For a good time, call Padme.  Special rates for Jedi."


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Anakin never said who he was talking about. Anakin said he saw someone close to him die. Yoda told him not to miss the dead. Why? Because you HAVE to let go. Its a simple part of life, and then add in the Force, if you don't let go you're doomed to fall to the Dark Side. So its even MORE important that Jedi learn to let go and accept certain things as the way life works.
> 
> Anakin never could, which was the root of his problem.
> 
> With Chewie, Yoda simply said goodbye. It had nothing to do with death at all. There's a difference between saying "Miss not the dead." and "Goodbye, miss you I will." One is accepting an inevitability in the way life works, and the other is simply acknowledging a friendship in a farewell.




But Yoda also told him that visions are often clouded by one's emotions, so it was possible that his loved one might not actually die, in which case letting go and accepting it would simply be, IMO, callous and cold. Not to mention that, since she wasn't dead (accuracy of vision notwithstanding), again, treating her as if she was already gone is just callous.

Maybe it's the phrasing (or the dyslexic sentence structure) of Yoda's that just struck the wrong chord. If he'd said, as you have, "death is a natural part of life, accept that it happens to us all, and embrace the time you have to spend with someone", rather than (as it came across to me), "let them go. Don't be attached to them, because caring leads to negative emotions and the Dark Side", it wouldn't have bothered me so much.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 23, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> My big thing was that here Anakin was living with Padme, she's preggers, and Obi-Wan doesn't figure it out until the end.
> 
> It also makes me wonder a little about Yoda.  He knows, because Ani tells him, that Ani has strong feelings for someone.  Who'd he think it was?  Obi-Wan?




Evidently, the Dark Side was clouding more than just the Force- it seems to have affected the Jedi's common sense, too.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Maybe it's the phrasing (or the dyslexic sentence structure) of Yoda's that just struck the wrong chord. If he'd said, as you have, "death is a natural part of life, accept that it happens to us all, and embrace the time you have to spend with someone", rather than (as it came across to me), "let them go. Don't be attached to them, because caring leads to negative emotions and the Dark Side", it wouldn't have bothered me so much.




Yoda told him the Jedi way...which is the more callous don't get attached because caring is more dangerous than not.

Of course, by the end of Sith, he and Obi-Wan have picked up on this being one of the major problems with what happened to the Jedi Order.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 23, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> True, but I guess my surprise comes not from the fact that he lives up to his character as described by Windu, but that anyone would willingly follow such a complete coward into battle, knowing he won't be there to see the thing through when it gets sticky.




It seems to me that the main characteristic that you want in your generals is great strategy and perhaps tactics. Having good escape plans could be seen as a logical extension of someone who is good at planning and executing plans.

People would follow him because of, say, the chain of command. Also perhaps because he had great plans which normally worked?

Cheers


----------



## Dagger75 (May 23, 2005)

How the hell can they not know Padme was pregnent with twins?  I guess Ultrasounds are to advanced.  We can make a holonet which make holographic images and sends them across the galaxy in real time but not a simple sonagram.  You think the "Chosen One" could feel the 2 minds of the babies.  The Sith can bring you back to life but nothing else.  Wonder what the wait is to get a cybernetic hand.


----------



## Jdvn1 (May 23, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> How the hell can they not know Padme was pregnent with twins?  I guess Ultrasounds are to advanced.



This is the _past_, remember?  

No, I was wondering the same thing.  Someone, somewhere, is a moron.  But, then again, Padme probably never was checked by a doctor because then maybe they could've found out who the father was (and Anakin would've been kicked out or whatever).


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 24, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> How the hell can they not know Padme was pregnent with twins?  I guess Ultrasounds are to advanced.  We can make a holonet which make holographic images and sends them across the galaxy in real time but not a simple sonagram.  You think the "Chosen One" could feel the 2 minds of the babies.  The Sith can bring you back to life but nothing else.  Wonder what the wait is to get a cybernetic hand.




In the original trilogy and followup history stuff, I always thought Vader fell long before the twins were born. I seem to recall Vader as a Hunter of Jedi. So, from my perception, Padme had went into hiding, and the Jedi were split up and hiding, as Darth Vader hunted down the last of them.

In the movies, the Clone Troopers (arranged and paid for by the Jedi, but loyal to the Emperor?) kill the Jedi. Vader kills some Jedi Babies (and I guess a couple real Jedi off-screen/ in holorecording).

Basically, Vader kind of sucked in Ep3.

So, Obi Wan having to be told by Yoda that "there is another" makes no real sense when he handed the kid over. Vader not knowing about the twins is reduced sense. (Leia was good at hiding her powers though!) Leia remembering her mother was just the drugs talking...

I wonder at what point Vader realized he had a son?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 24, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I wonder at what point Vader realized he had a son?




Probably after the Death Star blew up and the word of a Rebel hero named Skywalker being the one to take it down.

Who wants to bet Vader's first thought was "They couldn't have been that stupid to leave his name the same..."


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 24, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Probably after the Death Star blew up and the word of a Rebel hero named Skywalker being the one to take it down.
> 
> Who wants to bet Vader's first thought was "They couldn't have been that stupid to leave his name the same..."




I was just wondering what he knew during the Tattoine stuff in Ep4. I mean... the stormtroopers wipe out his step brother or whatnot?

It'd be amusing to see what Vader did during the mid-times. Probably went to Tattoine and got some good ole' revenge...


----------



## Staffan (May 24, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> So, Obi Wan having to be told by Yoda that "there is another" makes no real sense when he handed the kid over.



You *could* see that as a reminder, not a revelation.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 24, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> In the original trilogy and followup history stuff, I always thought Vader fell long before the twins were born. I seem to recall Vader as a Hunter of Jedi. So, from my perception, Padme had went into hiding, and the Jedi were split up and hiding, as Darth Vader hunted down the last of them.
> 
> In the movies, the Clone Troopers (arranged and paid for by the Jedi, but loyal to the Emperor?) kill the Jedi. Vader kills some Jedi Babies (and I guess a couple real Jedi off-screen/ in holorecording).
> 
> ...






Well with Obi Wan changing the message warning any remaining Jedi not to return to the temple you set up the Vader Jedi hunting years, tracking down the remaining Jedi.


----------



## drothgery (May 24, 2005)

I was talking to a co-worker about RotS today (whose a much more serious Star Wars fan than I am), and realized something. Palpatine never showed Anakin or Greivous his copy of the Evil Overlord List.


----------



## Mimic (May 24, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> How the hell can they not know Padme was pregnent with twins?  I guess Ultrasounds are to advanced.  We can make a holonet which make holographic images and sends them across the galaxy in real time but not a simple sonagram.  You think the "Chosen One" could feel the 2 minds of the babies.  The Sith can bring you back to life but nothing else.  Wonder what the wait is to get a cybernetic hand.




My sister-in-law didn't know she was having twins until she was 8 1/2 months pregnant, so its not outside the realm of probability.

Also the fact that she was probably trying to keep the pregnacy out of the spot light also adds to the chance that twins went undiscovered.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 24, 2005)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Well with Obi Wan changing the message warning any remaining Jedi not to return to the temple you set up the Vader Jedi hunting years, tracking down the remaining Jedi.




Exactly. Vader slaughtered people at the jedi temple (with the help of a horde of clone troopers), but the changed message meant that there would be lots of jedi who don't come home... and so vader spends a profitable couple of decades hunting them all down between Ep3 and Ep4

Cheers


----------



## KidCthulhu (May 24, 2005)

Yeah, I want to see Vaders "To Do" list from those years:

1) Stalk menacingly through corridors

2) Strangle people 

3) Get asthma inhaler (never got around to that)

4) Hunt down Jedi

5) Manicure


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 24, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Exactly. Vader slaughtered people at the jedi temple (with the help of a horde of clone troopers), but the changed message meant that there would be lots of jedi who don't come home... and so vader spends a profitable couple of decades hunting them all down between Ep3 and Ep4
> 
> Cheers




I would have thought this was obvious but I guess not.  Maybe he needs a wrapup scrolling text thing at the end.  

Darth Vader's Jedi hunting years would be a great topic for the TV series IMO.


----------



## griff_goodbeard (May 24, 2005)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> Yeah, I want to see Vaders "To Do" list from those years:
> 
> 1) Stalk menacingly through corridors
> 
> ...




  lol thats great!


----------



## Darkness (May 24, 2005)

If someone here is missing a post, it's probably because it contained politics (and a slight dose of religion).

To re-iterate:

*Please don't post about real-world politics in EN World, folks. Seriously.*


----------



## Orius (May 24, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Probably after the Death Star blew up and the word of a Rebel hero named Skywalker being the one to take it down.




Not to mention the fact that Vader sensed Luke's Force potential in the trench.


----------



## Orius (May 24, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> I was talking to a co-worker about RotS today (whose a much more serious Star Wars fan than I am), and realized something. Palpatine never showed Anakin or Greivous his copy of the Evil Overlord List.




That's only good thinking.  If you're the Evil Overlord, you definitely don't want evil underlings who are competant enough to take you out.  They don't have to know how to be an effective bad guy, they just have to know how to follow orders effectively.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 25, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Exactly. Vader slaughtered people at the jedi temple (with the help of a horde of clone troopers), but the changed message meant that there would be lots of jedi who don't come home... and so vader spends a profitable couple of decades hunting them all down between Ep3 and Ep4
> 
> Cheers





Anything CAN happen. But the way the movie seemed, the Jedi were pretty much wiped out, except for Obi-Wan and Yoda. Obviously (hopefully) there will be a surviving Jedi in the TV series, but that's not really drawn out in the movie.
Also, I had the feeling that there were very few Jedi at the end of Ep2. Other than the trainers and kids at the temple, it seemed to be the last of the Jedi.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (May 25, 2005)

> Originally Posted by Vocenoctum
> It would have been fun to have folks spreading rumors about how Padme got knocked up. Everyone knew she was pregnant, but no one knew of the marriage?






			
				KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> Apparently there was a big sign on the Galactic Senate bathroom wall.  "For a good time, call Padme.  Special rates for Jedi."





  

And also stuck up in the men's room in the Padawan's wing of the Jedi Temple.

And are we entirely sure that Anakin LIVED with Padme? Or was it just sleeping over when he was 'in town'? He's probably spending alot of time at the Temple and at Palpy's office....


----------



## Michael Morris (May 25, 2005)

Thread Summary....


*Statler:* Bravo!
*Waldorf:* Bravo!
*Statler:* Excellent
*Waldorf:* Tremendous
*Statler:* Well, except for that last part
*Waldorf:* Yeah - and those other parts weren't too good either.
*Statler:* Come to think of it is was pretty bad.
*Waldorf:* It was the worst movie I've ever seen.
*Statler:* It was terrible
*Waldorf:* Awful
*Statler:* Boo
*Waldorf:* Boo!!


Hint - don't over analysis it. You'll ruin it for yourself and everyone else.


----------



## Jdvn1 (May 25, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Thread Summary....



  Classic.


----------



## Welverin (May 26, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Yes, it does sound cold, but that's the point.  The Jedi are all without strong attachments to loved ones.  It's pretty obvious that none of them can relate to Anakin and his strong emotions for his mom and wife.  Add in that none of them know he is married or in love.  They are simply speaking of the teachings they live by.  Bottom line is that Anakin should have never been trained as a Jedi.  Obi-wan never wanted to do it.  He did it as a last request to his dying master.  Which essentially doomed the Jedi.




The Jedi Council did sign off on it, so it's not like you can pin it all on Obi-Wan, and I do believe that could and would have stopped him from training Anakin if they had chosen to do so.



			
				KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> 5) Manicure




Um, what's the point? Both arms go chopped off after all.

Now something to take care of that skin condition would make sense, something else he obviously didn't get around too.


----------



## wingsandsword (May 26, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I wonder at what point Vader realized he had a son?



Well, if you listen to the EU, there was a short comic series (later compiled into a graphic novel) called Vader's Quest.  Set right after the Battle of Yavin, he is _very_ interested in finding the Rebel pilot who blew up the Death Star, because he could sense he was using the Force to do so.  Eventually he captures a Rebel and under interrogation/torture he finally utters the name "Skywalker".  Vader goes ballistic and tries for the first time to track down this pilot named Skywalker, having a pretty good idea of who that pilot is, and fails.  In the end, he goes back to the Emperor and lies outright to him, saying he couldn't find the name of the pilot (although a separate informant has told the Emperor about Skywalker, and the Emperor knows he's being lied to by Vader).


----------



## nyjm (May 26, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Vader's Quest.



this is an excellent little graphic novel/comic series, btw.  i'm not too sure when it came out, but a really great glimpse into darth vader's world during episodes IV-VI.  the planet where he crash lands provides for a fabulous bit of characterization.

[edit]: i'm confusing my stories.  "vader's quest" remains a great story.  but the crash landing i was thinking about is in The Savage Heart.


----------



## Someone (May 26, 2005)

What i was thinking:

a) Lightsaber ramdom hit location: roll a d20

1-14: Arm
15-17: Both arms
18: Torso
19: Head
20: Roll twice

b) Why can´t he force push them [the little buzz robots] into space?

c) Wha..? Yoda is going to poop? ah, no, it´s a spaceship.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 27, 2005)

Someone said:
			
		

> What i was thinking:
> 
> b) Why can´t he force push them [the little buzz robots] into space?




Apparently, Jedi suck.
Dooku force slammed a few times, Palp was tossing objects left and right...

The Jedi stood there and took it.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 27, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Well, if you listen to the EU, there was a short comic series (later compiled into a graphic novel) called Vader's Quest.  Set right after the Battle of Yavin, he is _very_ interested in finding the Rebel pilot who blew up the Death Star, because he could sense he was using the Force to do so.  Eventually he captures a Rebel and under interrogation/torture he finally utters the name "Skywalker".  Vader goes ballistic and tries for the first time to track down this pilot named Skywalker, having a pretty good idea of who that pilot is, and fails.  In the end, he goes back to the Emperor and lies outright to him, saying he couldn't find the name of the pilot (although a separate informant has told the Emperor about Skywalker, and the Emperor knows he's being lied to by Vader).




That sounds interesting.
Do they ever reconcile the Tattoine/ Stormtroopers Killed My Brother stuff?


----------



## Staffan (May 27, 2005)

Someone said:
			
		

> b) Why can´t he force push them [the little buzz robots] into space?



Well, there's a covering between him and the droids. I don't think we ever see someone use TK on things they don't have, in D&D terms, line of effect to.


----------



## mojo1701 (May 27, 2005)

Someone said:
			
		

> b) Why can´t he force push them [the little buzz robots] into space?




I was half-expecting that, myself.


----------



## wingsandsword (May 27, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Do they ever reconcile the Tattoine/ Stormtroopers Killed My Brother stuff?



You mean how Owen and Beru were burned to cinders by Stormtroopers, and what was essentially Vader's only living family (even if by marriage) besides Luke and Leia were killed by the Empire?

He never found out, it was just another routine act of martial law by Stormtroopers that didn't warrant reporting far up the chain of command.  By the time that happened, Vader was well on his way to the Death Star and local commanders were in charge of the operation, so blasting a pair of rural farmers who probably obstructed them or resisted (they spent 19 years hiding Luke from the Empire, and they finally come knocking on the door when he's fortunately out in his speeder, they probably weren't polite and helpful to the troops).  For all we know, Vader specifically didn't want to have anything to do with a search operation on Tatooine (too many bad memories?)  There is no evidence anywhere in the EU that I know that says Vader ever found out about that incident.


----------



## Dagger75 (May 27, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> That sounds interesting.
> Do they ever reconcile the Tattoine/ Stormtroopers Killed My Brother stuff?




 Haven't you ever seen "Troops"?  

   It clearly shows the Stormtroopers where going to the Lars farm (again) to stop a maritial dispute.  Then durning the fight Beru got made, dropped a Thermal Detanantor she had, and killed them both.  It happened so fast the Stormtroopers couldn't react.  Then they got called away to an incident in Mos Eisley.  Some sort of crazy guy was hacking people apart so they couldn't investigate properly.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 27, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> You mean how Owen and Beru were burned to cinders by Stormtroopers, and what was essentially Vader's only living family (even if by marriage) besides Luke and Leia were killed by the Empire?
> 
> He never found out,
> <snip>
> There is no evidence anywhere in the EU that I know that says Vader ever found out about that incident.



Just curious, is this in print somewhere, or just your assumption?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 27, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Just curious, is this in print somewhere, or just your assumption?



 Wait...are you asking if Vader not finding out about that incident being in print? Umm...anyone else catch the irony in that?


----------



## Qlippoth (May 27, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Haven't you ever seen "Troops"?
> 
> It clearly shows the Stormtroopers where going to the Lars farm (again) to stop a maritial dispute.  Then durning the fight Beru got made, dropped a Thermal Detanantor she had, and killed them both.  It happened so fast the Stormtroopers couldn't react.  Then they got called away to an incident in Mos Eisley.  Some sort of crazy guy was hacking people apart so they couldn't investigate properly.



I remember that one! Lars shirtless, drinking blue liquid, and cursing!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (May 27, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Haven't you ever seen "Troops"?
> 
> It clearly shows the Stormtroopers where going to the Lars farm (again) to stop a maritial dispute.  Then durning the fight Beru got made, dropped a Thermal Detanantor she had, and killed them both.  It happened so fast the Stormtroopers couldn't react.  Then they got called away to an incident in Mos Eisley.  Some sort of crazy guy was hacking people apart so they couldn't investigate properly.





  

Haven't seen that in quite awhile!


----------



## Someone (May 27, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Well, there's a covering between him and the droids. I don't think we ever see someone use TK on things they don't have, in D&D terms, line of effect to.




I recall Vader choking someone by _videoconference_ in Empire.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 27, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Jedi:  Feelings lead to the dark side.
> 
> Yoda: Search your feelings and you will find Anakin.




Oh, I don't know, it makes sense to me. Kenobi seached his feelings. It led to the Dark Side. Which is where Anakin was hanging out, making much with the mayhem.


----------



## Villano (May 27, 2005)

Someone said:
			
		

> I recall Vader choking someone by _videoconference_ in Empire.




I seem to remember that, too.  

Perhaps they just weren't powerful enough in RotS to knock off the droids without shattering the glass?  Don't forget that, while Anakin was very powerful in RotS, you can add another 20+ years by the time he did that in the OT.  

Apparently, no one was able to talk to force ghosts in the prequels, either.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (May 27, 2005)

Since we're not allowed to start new threads....

Has the Crimson Guard ever beaten up _anyone_?  Ever?  They stand around looking good in red, but I think that's it.


----------



## mojo1701 (May 27, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Has the Crimson Guard ever beaten up _anyone_?  Ever?  They stand around looking good in red, but I think that's it.




Anyone realize that they have the exact same costumes as those blue-robed guards at the end of _The Phantom Menace_, but now with faceguards, red, and without the ridiculous-looking broom-top reminiscent of _Ben-Hur_?


----------



## Staffan (May 27, 2005)

Someone said:
			
		

> I recall Vader choking someone by _videoconference_ in Empire.



Good point. I withdraw the suggestion that it can't be done without line of effect. Might be more difficult, though.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (May 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted by BiggusGeekus
> Has the Crimson Guard ever beaten up anyone? Ever? They stand around looking good in red, but I think that's it.




They're there just for "decoration" and to get pummeled.   



			
				mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Anyone realize that they have the exact same costumes as those blue-robed guards at the end of _The Phantom Menace_, but now with faceguards, red, and without the ridiculous-looking broom-top reminiscent of _Ben-Hur_?





Gee ya think....?   Palpy only modified their dress with his "status change" from chancellor to emperor.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 29, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Wait...are you asking if Vader not finding out about that incident being in print? Umm...anyone else catch the irony in that?



Heh, in the Song of Fire & Ice thread, I was supposed to prove a negative, so I figured it was standard policy on ENWorld! 

But, really, what I meant was "is there some part of a book where it says Vader didn't know/ was away/ never found out." or does it just never say he knew?

There IS a huge difference between no mention and a mention of not knowing, nay?


----------



## wingsandsword (May 29, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Has the Crimson Guard ever beaten up _anyone_?  Ever?  They stand around looking good in red, but I think that's it.



Crimson Empire and Crimson Empire II, two 6-part comic series from 1998, both later compiled separately into graphic novel form.  It's set after the Emperor's final death in Dark Empire, and is the aftermath of the last survivors of the Royal Guard dealing with the Empire crumbling around them.  They are depicted as elite super-soldiers who most people only saw at ceremonial functions, and the red robes are ceremonial, they wear red-colored stormtrooper armor with the alternate helmet in combat.  The main character, Kir Kanos, eventually squares off with the only other surviving guardsman Carnor Jax (who was trying to become a warlord and rebuild the Empire).

The guardsmen weren't clones.  Not only did CE/CE II predate AotC, but Palpatine had his blue-robed Senate Guard before the clones were delivered, so there already was a framework for an elite guard.


----------



## Taralan (May 31, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggusGeekus
Has the Crimson Guard ever beaten up anyone? Ever? They stand around looking good in red, but I think that's it.

I think these guards are meant to be the equivalant of the roman lictors which where ceremonial guards of the roman magistrate (the more powerful magistrates where allowed more lictors, 6 for a consul I believe and 12 for the dictator (and later emperor))..

The fall of the republic and rise of the empire in starwars have of course a lot of intentional similarity with the roman empire.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (May 31, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Clone Trooper army are those jedi hunters everybody was wondering about.  Then how come in Episode 4-5-6 the stormtroopers can't hit anything.




Well the clone troopers would be pushing 50 by then wouldn't they?  Probably thinking about their retirement (remember the 2 troopers in ANH that Obi-Wan distracts as he is turning off the tractor beam?  They are talking about a new kind of speeder - probably having a mid-life crisis).

Grievious was really unnecassary imo.  He wasn't menacing or dangerous - just kind of goofy.


----------



## mojo1701 (May 31, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> Well the clone troopers would be pushing 50 by then wouldn't they?  Probably thinking about their retirement (remember the 2 troopers in ANH that Obi-Wan distracts as he is turning off the tractor beam?  They are talking about a new kind of speeder - probably having a mid-life crisis).




Besides, no one knew how long the Clones lasted, anyway.



> Grievious was really unnecassary imo.  He wasn't menacing or dangerous - just kind of goofy.




*Cough*nothingimportanttosayhere,justlikegrievousinthemovie*cough*


----------

