# Men, women, insecurity & alcohol [** NEW UPDATE, DEC 2005 **]



## glass (Oct 3, 2005)

Little anecdote I thought I'd share:

Saturday before last I was in my local pub, and I ended up chatting with a girl who used to be a bar maid there. In fact, she had just left to go off to university, and was in there having a fairwell drink.

Anyway, it turns out she is really insecure about her appearance. She described herself as 'a 1', and as 'short & fat'. Then we have a snippet of conversation that goes something like this (I'm paraphrasing a little):


_Gorgeous former barmaid: 'When I started here, I was hoping guys would ask me for my number, but they never do'.

Me: 'Really? OK, can I have your number?'

GFB: 'No'.

Me: 'Oh'. *stunned silence/more drink*_


Now at this point, as you can imagine, I was more than a little upset. She thinks she's a 1, and she still isn't interested in me: What am I, a -5*? A few minutes later, she expresses a similar complaint to someone else in my hearing, so I pipe up with:


_Me: 'I asked you for your number and you said no!'

GFB: 'You were only kidding around'.

Me: 'No, I meant it'.

GFB: 'Okay, ask me again'.

Me: 'Can I have your number?'

GFB: 'Yes'._


I was so pleased with this turnaround in my fortunes, I didn't notice until a while later that she'd said yes, but she hadn't actually given me her number. By which time she was off talking to someone else, and I was back into depressed/pissed off mode.

So I was thinking about posting a thread here complaining about all of this, but before I got around to it, I had an epiphany:

When she said 'ask me again', she didn't mean right away, she meant at some future time after I had sobered up (I wasn't falling down drunk, but I definitely had a fair few). She wanted to be sure I really like her, that it wasn't just alcohol talking.

Hopefully, she'll come back to work there at Christmas, so I'll be able to test my theory. In the meantime, any thoughts?


glass.


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## smootrk (Oct 3, 2005)

From another thread asking for advice



			
				smootrk said:
			
		

> Another idea.  Is a role-play gaming forum really the best place for advice for this kind of advice.
> 
> Drop by the local game store and make some comparisons.


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## glass (Oct 3, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> From another thread asking for advice



I'm not really asking for advice, so much as wishing to share what I thought was an interesting story.


glass.


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## Xath (Oct 3, 2005)

Ask her.  The worst she can do is say no.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 3, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> From another thread asking for advice



 My gaming store has a mix of people. Most of the people that hang out there are married, so we've got to be doing something right. But if you can't offer any advice, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with asking, though.

And I'd have thought she didn't mean 'in the future' since she did say "yes"... maybe you both were kind of stunned and missed the actual giving-of-the-number step?


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## GeorgeFields (Oct 3, 2005)

If she gave you her number, call her.


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## Desdichado (Oct 3, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> In the meantime, any thoughts?



There's modesty, there's self-deprecation humor (see Conan O'Brien for a good example), and then there's just fishing for attention and compliments by making ridiculous self-deprecating comments.

Even if she really is interested in giving you her number (which I'd say sounds dubious at this point), she sounds on first blush like a high-maintainence attention hog.  I'd be very careful if I were you.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 3, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> When she said 'ask me again', she didn't mean right away, she meant at some future time after I had sobered up (I wasn't falling down drunk, but I definitely had a fair few). She wanted to be sure I really like her, that it wasn't just alcohol talking.
> 
> Hopefully, she'll come back to work there at Christmas, so I'll be able to test my theory. In the meantime, any thoughts?




What are the odds you'll even recognize her at Christmas without the beer goggles on?  If you do and she isn't as pretty as you alcohol fuzzed brain remembers, will you still ask for her number?


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## BOZ (Oct 3, 2005)

eh, if you want to, next time you see her ask her if the offer still stands (of giving you her # that is).


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## Desdichado (Oct 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> eh, if you want to, next time you see her ask her if the offer still stands (of giving you her # that is).



I agree; it can't hurt to ask.

Still, sounds to me like she was just talking 'coz she liked the attention, and when you actually asked her for her number, she backpedaled like a gambler who's bluff just got called.  Be casual about it, and don't expect too much, I'd say.  If anything happens, great, if not, no big deal.


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## BOZ (Oct 3, 2005)

that seems likely true enough.


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## DaveMage (Oct 3, 2005)

Always ask.

If the answer is no - it's their loss.

Have confidence.

There are approximately 3 billion women in the world - if one says no, there are 2,999,999,999 others that may say "yes".  The odds are in your favor.


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## devilbat (Oct 3, 2005)

She's leaving, why would you want her number anyway?


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## Lobo Lurker (Oct 3, 2005)

Unless you're married, married with childeren, dating, have taken religious vows or something similar. You have, literally, nothing to lose.


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## der_kluge (Oct 3, 2005)

Lobo Lurker said:
			
		

> Unless you're married, married with childeren, dating, have taken religious vows or something similar. You have, literally, nothing to lose.




Well, he could gain a venereal disease!


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## BiggusGeekus (Oct 3, 2005)

If you ask her at Christmas she's gonna think you're a stalker or at the very least a wacknut who's been waiting for her all these months.

The fact that you didn't get her number is indicative of poor follow-through.  Work on that.   Or at the very least watch the first 20 minutes of the movie _Hitch_.  I wasn't there, but when she said "yes" your very next words should have been something along the lines of _"Great!  I know a fantastic place for Thai food.  You like Thai?"_ Seal the deal then get gone.  If you aren't about to get gone, get her number and invent an excuse to get gone.  For example: _"Great!  I gotta get going, I have water polo practice tomorrow morning.  But give me your number, I'll call Monday and we'll work something out."_

But what's done is done.  Now all you have to do is get to a gym or jog or something.  When she comes back for Christmas, impress her by juggling anvils.  That's always a good ice breaker.


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## BiggusGeekus (Oct 3, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> There are approximately 3 billion women in the world - if one says no, there are 2,999,999,999 others that may say "yes".




HEY!!!  One of those is my wife!  

Y'all just better stay away from my house Dave .....


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## Turanil (Oct 3, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> Hopefully, she'll come back to work there at Christmas, so I'll be able to test my theory. In the meantime, any thoughts?



In the meantime, plenty of opportunities to find the _right_ girl and forget about this one.


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## Altamont Ravenard (Oct 3, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> Ask her.  The worst she can do is say no.



 Fact is, she already has! 

AR


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## BOZ (Oct 3, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> There are approximately 3 billion women in the world - if one says no, there are 2,999,999,999 others that may say "yes".  The odds are in your favor.




well, you have to cross off the jailbait, lesbians, married & committed, relatives, and handicapped... at least, i'd hope so!


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## nerfherder (Oct 3, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> In the meantime, plenty of opportunities to find the _right_ girl and forget about this one.



Yup.

You've got a funny little anecdote to tell your mates about how you got this girl to agree to give you her number, but you never actually got it.  Remember to slap you forehead and say "Doh!" at the end of the story...    (I once managed to forget to get a girls number - but used a bit of initiative and things worked out)

Seriously though, forget her.

If you happen to bump into her at Christmas, see how you get on then.

Cheers,
Liam

P.S. where's she going to uni?  If it's Newcastle, and she really is gorgeous, could you give me her nu..... oh, never mind


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 3, 2005)

[mini rant]

I'd definately ask her for her number again in the future, but look out for girls that pull the "Oh - I'm so unattractive" thing when they really aren't.  They generally tend to be hunting for someone to fawn over them and always want to be the center of attention.  I've got a girlfriend like that and she drives me INSANE.  Whenever we go shopping she'll step out of the dressing room looking her best and sigh "this makes me look so fat" or "this looks terrible on me" just fishing for someone to say "Nope - not true.  You look fabulous."

[/mini rant]

 

If I were her - I would be reluctant to give out my number in that situation, as well.  I would be much, much more likely in an alcohol-free setting, though.  So I'd say your theory is at least partly true.


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## DaveMage (Oct 4, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> HEY!!!  One of those is my wife!
> 
> Y'all just better stay away from my house Dave .....




Don't worry - my wife refuses to let me date.  Something about "commitment" or somesuch.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> well, you have to cross off the jailbait, lesbians, married & committed, relatives, and handicapped... at least, i'd hope so!




Well, relatives are okay in certain states...    

As for jailbait...they get older.  Lesbians - well, depends on the lesbian.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> well, you have to cross off the jailbait, lesbians, married & committed, relatives, and handicapped... at least, i'd hope so!



Well, if you're _that_ picky, you might only be left with less than a dozen...


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## Pielorinho (Oct 4, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Whenever we go shopping she'll step out of the dressing room looking her best and sigh "this makes me look so fat" or "this looks terrible on me" just fishing for someone to say "Nope - not true.  You look fabulous."



You need to master the one-raised-eyebrow look and say, "Honey, it ain't the dress."  One time, and she won't fish with you again.

It certainly kept my female friends when I was a teenager for doing that awful please-compliment-me! game, and I'm sure it had nothing to do with my years of singlehood.

Daniel


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## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Well, if you're _that_ picky, you might only be left with less than a dozen...




what if i have a whole lot of happily married lesbian relatives of mine, who happen to be confined to a wheelchair and underage?    that takes a lot of them out of the picture.


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## The Shaman (Oct 4, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> Another idea. Is a role-play gaming forum really the best place for advice for this kind of advice? Drop by the local game store and make some comparisons.



Keep in mind that many of the posters on this particular bulletin board are in happy relationships and/or date regularly* - not all gamers are Big Sweaty Game-Shop Habitués.


* Here's to wives and sweethearts - may they never meet!


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## Dingleberry (Oct 4, 2005)

I don't have anything to add, but I will note that if I ever write my autobiography, the chapter that depicts my freshman year in college will have the same title as this thread.


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## diaglo (Oct 4, 2005)

Lobo Lurker said:
			
		

> Unless you're married, married with childeren, dating, have taken religious vows or something similar. You have, literally, nothing to lose.



his virginity.


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## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

:rimshot:


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## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 4, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Well, he could gain a venereal disease!




Technicall, that would be _gaining_ something...


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> What are the odds you'll even recognize her at Christmas without the beer goggles on?  If you do and she isn't as pretty as you alcohol fuzzed brain remembers, will you still ask for her number?



Oh, I'll recognise her. She worked in my local pub for several months: This wasn't the first time I'd seen her, just the first time I'd seen her off duty.


glass.


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## Angel Tarragon (Oct 5, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> Love - Men, women, insecurity & alcohol



I love alcohol.

Mmmm......alcohol.


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

devilbat said:
			
		

> She's leaving, why would you want her number anyway?



She's only gone as far as Birmingham. It's not like she's a hundred miles away.


glass.


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## Angel Tarragon (Oct 5, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> She's only gone as far as Birmingham. It's not like she's a hundred miles away.



Then go visit her already.


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> If you ask her at Christmas she's gonna think you're a stalker or at the very least a wacknut who's been waiting for her all these months.



Good point!



> But what's done is done.  Now all you have to do is get to a gym or jog or something.  When she comes back for Christmas, impress her by juggling anvils.  That's always a good ice breaker.



Funilly enough, I joined a gym yesterday! (Not for the purposes of impressing GFB, you understand).


glass.


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## Angel Tarragon (Oct 5, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> Funilly enough, I joined a gym yesterday! (Not for the purposes of impressing GFB, you understand).



That's good. Some men are okay enough to be slightly overweight to being noticeably overweight and still have enough good looks to sociably get by. Though, the more fit a man is, the more attention he will draw. Come next weekend, I'll be cracking down myself - jogging (evening hours), sweatin' to the oldies and video walking (during the day) along with a bunch of other stuff.


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Then go visit her already.



I don't know _where_ in Birmingham. It'd be a very small needle in a multi-million person haystack.

Besides, that really would be kinda stalkerish.


glass.


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Well, he could gain a venereal disease!



You can get those from telephones?


glass.


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## Angel Tarragon (Oct 5, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> I don't know _where_ in Birmingham. It'd be a very small needle in a multi-million person haystack.
> 
> Besides, that really would be kinda stalkerish.



Give her a ring - tell her you'd like to visit when the time is righ for the both of you. It isn't stalkerish if you tell her your intent.


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Give her a ring - tell her you'd like to visit when the time is righ for the both of you. It isn't stalkerish if you tell her your intent.



She didn't actually give me her number, she just said she would. If she had've, it wouldn't be much of a story!


glass.


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## Dog Moon (Oct 5, 2005)

> Originally posted by *glass*
> You can get those from telephones?




If you can, I'd really question some peoples' sexual habits.


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

Dog_Moon2003 said:
			
		

> If you can, I'd really question some peoples' sexual habits.




Jenny: 'Geoff, you're the only guy who's ever 'phoned me'.

Geoff: 'Surely that can't be true, I'm sure lots of guys have 'phoned you'.

Jenny: 'No, geoff, you're the only guy who's ever '_phoned_ me'.

-'Coupling', BBC2



glass.


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## Angel Tarragon (Oct 5, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> She didn't actually give me her number, she just said she would. If she had've, it wouldn't be much of a story!



Oh, well, I'm a moron.


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## Angel Tarragon (Oct 5, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> Jenny: 'Geoff, you're the only guy who's ever 'phoned me'.
> 
> Geoff: 'Surely that can't be true, I'm sure lots of guys have 'phoned you'.
> 
> ...



ROFL!!!!! LOL! LOL!

OMG!



Oh!


Oh!

OMG, My sides!




ROFL!!!!!!


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> ROFL!!!!! LOL! LOL! OMG!



Coupling is brilliant. It's probably my all time favourite sit-com.


glass.


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> well, you have to cross off the jailbait, lesbians, married & committed, relatives, and handicapped... at least, i'd hope so!



I don't think any of my relatives have been commited...  


glass.


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## Angel Tarragon (Oct 5, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> I don't think any of my relatives have been commited...



My uncle thought he was St. Jerome.


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Oh, well, I'm a moron.



You're a moron? I'm the one who did actually manage to get her 'phone number, despite the fact that she said I could have it!  


glass.


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## glass (Oct 5, 2005)

To those who have been suggesting that she is an attention hog and not worth bothering with: I'd agree with you, based on the 'transcript', but that isn't the impression I got at the time. I got the impression that a combination of a bad day and alcohol were allowing her insecurities to the surface.

Plus, although this is the first time I'd had an extended conversation with her, I had spoken to her a fair few times in the past for the  length of time it took her to pour a couple of pints, and she'd never fished for compliments before.


glass.


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## Desdichado (Oct 5, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> You can get those from telephones?



Well, hopefully if you do call her, that's not _all_ you do.


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## BOZ (Oct 5, 2005)

Dog_Moon2003 said:
			
		

> If you can, I'd really question some peoples' sexual habits.




a new definition for phone... lovin.


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## The Shaman (Oct 5, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> My uncle thought he was St. Jerome.



I'd say that's a yes...

I feel so funky...


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## glass (Oct 6, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Well, hopefully if you do call her, that's not _all_ you do.



True!  

Although, since I seem to have managed to make getting her number into a multi-step process, that's a lot of steps away...  


glass.


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## Roxlimn (Oct 6, 2005)

In my opinion, you should just forget about the girl and work on your technique.  Seriously, sitting silent after a girl whines about her looks and _then_ doesn't give you her number?  That's just so full of date openings I positively cry over the fact that you just sat there saying nothing.

What could you have said?  Well, any of the following:

"So you complain that guys don't ask you your number, but you don't want to give it out anyway?"

"You know, I _am_ a guy, and I _am_ asking for your number.  Did you intend to say "no" to everyone who asks, or just me?"

"So... ...did you want for people to ask you for your number, or did you want people to actually call you for a date?  It would help if you actually gave it out, you know."

"So I can't have your number now.  Do you suppose I can convince you to give it to me tomorrow, over lunch maybe?"

"Um, do you actually _have_ a number to give, or are you just bluffing?"

"Ooooh! That was way harsh, woman! You could at least have given me the number of some pizza place or chinese takeout.  Preferrably _good_ chinese takeout places."

Whether extremely good or extremely bad, your goal is to make a lasting impression.  It's far easier to turn a woman to your favor when she thinks you're the Antichrist than when she doesn't even remember your face.


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## fusangite (Oct 7, 2005)

This girl wanted to obtain a compliment without having to ever see you again. Objective achieved. Why would you be relevant to her in future?


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## The Shaman (Oct 7, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> Although, since I seem to have managed to make getting her number into a multi-step process, that's a lot of steps away...



Screw the steps - take the elevator, going down...


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## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

focus on another girl... there are plenty out there, and you're bound to find one who is actually interested in you sooner or later.


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## ssampier (Oct 7, 2005)

*clueless dater takes notes*


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## Desdichado (Oct 7, 2005)

Roxlimn said:
			
		

> In my opinion, you should just forget about the girl and work on your technique.  Seriously, sitting silent after a girl whines about her looks and _then_ doesn't give you her number?  That's just so full of date openings I positively cry over the fact that you just sat there saying nothing.



Indeed.  And you've got some great responses there, yourself.  This harks back to patented Teflon_Billy advice: don't be a sop to the girls; they like to see that you can stand up for yourself.  He would call it being just a bit of a jerk; I suppose that's one way to look at it.


> "So I can't have your number now.  Do you suppose I can convince you to give it to me tomorrow, over lunch maybe?"
> 
> "Ooooh! That was way harsh, woman! You could at least have given me the number of some pizza place or chinese takeout.  Preferrably _good_ chinese takeout places."



I particularly like  those two.


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## nerfherder (Oct 8, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> This girl wanted to obtain a compliment without having to ever see you again. Objective achieved. Why would you be relevant to her in future?



Ooh, you cynic you... I like how you think! 

Cheers,
Liam


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## glass (Oct 26, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> To those who have been suggesting that she is an attention hog and not worth bothering with: I'd agree with you, based on the 'transcript', but that isn't the impression I got at the time. I got the impression that a combination of a bad day and alcohol were allowing her insecurities to the surface.




Well, I ran into her again on Friday night, so I can update the story a little.

She was in my local again on Friday evening. Since quite a lot of people have left recently, some the staff they had on were not all that experienced, and were therefore rushed of their feet. So, GFB got roped into helping with glass collection.

Anyway, one of the other former-staff-members was standing near our table, and GFB bounced over and hugged him, putting the plastic thingy for collecting glasses on a stool next to me. So of course, I picked it up and started fiddling with it. So GFB flashed me a gorgeous smile and said:

_GFB: Are you going to do a glass-collecting run for me?

Me: No. I might have if you'd rushed over and hugged me instead of ...

GFB: Well, you were sitting down.

Me: That's..._

At which point I stopped talking, as I realised she had gone back to ignoring me. I was going to point out that I had been in the place a while and had stood up and left my seat several times.

So, it looks like those who commented about her character were right, and I was dead wrong. I still didn't get her number, but I am not so sure I want it anymore.


glass.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Oct 26, 2005)

That's too bad. I feel your pain.


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## devilbat (Oct 26, 2005)

Yep, she sounds like she's more trouble then she's worth.


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## StupidSmurf (Oct 26, 2005)

Wow. This story does NOT surprise me. Reminds me of the college age Christian fellowship that I was part of years back. It was located in Boston, so there were a LOT of students in it from a large sampling of colleges and universities in the area. I asked a bunch of women out and was turned down each time.

Then one day, this absolutely gorgeous blonde girl joined the group, and a lot of us guys zeroed in on her. I ended up going out with her.    Then, apparently, the other girls in the group got pissed, saying that they were willing to date, but that no one was asking them. They complained enough that I actually got a phone call from the minister in charge, asking me why I wasn't asking out any of the other women in the group, and why I was instead running after this new girl who was barely a member.

Now, I don't make it a practice of raising my voice at men of God, but I became incensed. I explained to him that I had asked a lot of the women out and they had all turned me down flat. I further stated that I wanted to get to Janelle "before the women in the group got to her and infected her with their twisted mindset." To my surprise, he conceded the point and dropped the matter.

Unfortunately, Janelle turned out to be as interesting as plain yogurt. We didn't end up dating long at all.   

But, the bottom line is, each gender has certain irrational behaviors that it can claim as its own exclusively. What you are seeing there, sir, is one of the female ones.


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## StupidSmurf (Oct 26, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> Well, I ran into her again on Friday night, so I can update the story a little.
> 
> She was in my local again on Friday evening. Since quite a lot of people have left recently, some the staff they had on were not all that experienced, and were therefore rushed of their feet. So, GFB got roped into helping with glass collection.
> 
> ...




OK, I just read this update. Do not walk away from her. Run. Run like the very hounds of Hell were after you. Run and don't look back. Back away from the crazy lady.


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## Dingleberry (Oct 26, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> But, the bottom line is, each gender has certain irrational behaviors that it can claim as its own exclusively. What you are seeing there, sir, is one of the female ones.




To quote Geoge Carlin: "Men are stupid and women are crazy - the reason women are so crazy is because men are so stupid."


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## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

plenty of fish in the sea, and all that.


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## StupidSmurf (Oct 26, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> plenty of fish in the sea, and all that.






Well, personally, my tastes run to human females, but to each his own, I guess. Far be it for me to judge.


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## DaveMage (Oct 26, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> plenty of fish in the sea, and all that.




The friendly pirate ship is rocking on the sea...
Rocking on the sea...
Rocking on the sea...
The friendly pirate ship is rocking on the sea...
We're all being tossed about.

(Note: Children may be required to understand this post.)


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## ssampier (Oct 26, 2005)

reading this thread is like a good train-wreck; can't help but watch anyway.


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## Desdichado (Oct 26, 2005)

Oh, I don't think she's crazy, she's just not interested in glass, and doesn't have the guts to tell him so frankly.  That's not a unique or crazy reaction; sadly, it's a very common one.  It's sad, because men tend to not think that way, and when women think they've made something very clear, men tend to not have picked up on it at all.  It is the root of much of the miscommunication between men and women--even going the other way.  There were plenty of girls who expressed "clear" interest in me when I was younger that I only recognized after I was married and a little more experienced in deciphering the subtle enigma that is female communication (not to sound like I'm bragging; I got shot down plenty too...)  glass is ahead of the game because he knows what's really going on now and can quit wasting his time on being anything other than a slightly friendly acquaintance.


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## StupidSmurf (Oct 26, 2005)

JD, you bring up a good point. There have been several instances when, after my wife and I let a party, she'd say "So and so was totally hitting on you." And I failed to notice even though I was paying attention. And, on the other hand, there were times back when I was dating around, that I'd thought "She seems interested" only to find out that the woman in question was anything but.

Still, it's more fun to just arbitrarily call an entire segment of the population "crazy".


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## fusangite (Oct 26, 2005)

I'm with Joshua. Women use pretty simple coded communication. I have absolutely no social intution but, if you understand you are just learning a code and put your mind to it, most non-verbal and coded verbal communication is pretty easy to figure out. And, frankly, not learning to code is impolite.


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## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

it always seems to be more easily intuited when watching one person flirt with another, than it is to be on the recieving end when not expecting it.


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## glass (Oct 27, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Oh, I don't think she's crazy, she's just not interested in glass, and doesn't have the guts to tell him so frankly.



I don't have a problem with her not being interested (well, y'know, it's not ideal). It's just the way that she acted interested when she wanted something, then went back to ignoring me when it became clear she wasn't going to get it.

Actually, I'm more anoyed with myself -that I misjudged her so completely- than with anything she actually did.

Still, this is fun thread, so this cloud does have it's silver lining.


glass.


----------



## glass (Oct 27, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> I'm with Joshua. Women use pretty simple coded communication. I have absolutely no social intution but, if you understand you are just learning a code and put your mind to it, most non-verbal and coded verbal communication is pretty easy to figure out. And, frankly, not learning to code is impolite.



So explain this code: What signs should I be looking out for, good and bad?

'Cause I am (obviously) pretty clueless in that department, and I suspect I am not alone!


glass.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Oct 27, 2005)

My wife pointed out to me that this is something that relates to the book "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" (Personally, I've always added the phrase "And Crap Is From Uranus" to the title).

Men, as a species, like to solve problems and/or fix things. Women like to vent, share feelings, blah. So...

WOMAN (just wanting to get something off her chest....behave, you!!!): Guys never ask me out...guys never call me... :::sigh::::

GUY (considers the woman date-worthy AND sees a logical solution to her problem): Hey, I'll call you! Give me your number!

WOMAN: Um...no.

In the immortal paraphrased words of Cartman, "she was just sayin'..."


----------



## glass (Oct 27, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Men, as a species, like to solve problems and/or fix things. Women like to vent, share feelings, blah. So...In the immortal paraphrased words of Cartman, "she was just sayin'..."



Sometimes men want to vent too.

Still, you're not wrong.


glass.


----------



## fusangite (Oct 27, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> So explain this code: What signs should I be looking out for, good and bad?



If you ask for someone's number and they don't give it to you, they mean "No. You can't have my number." Any response to a request for a number that does not include the correct sequence of numbers is a "no." Examples of statements meaning "no"
- any sequence of more less than or more than 7 (or 10 if you have ten-digit local dialing)
- any sequence of numbers that is not, in fact, the person's phone number
- "I don't have a pen."
- "Yes."
- "You're so cute."
- "I really like you."
- "I'll give it to you once I've.../after we..."
- "I've run out of cards."
- "Of course!"
- "That's a great idea."


> 'Cause I am (obviously) pretty clueless in that department, and I suspect I am not alone!



Well, this is kind of the blind leading the blind. I expect my track record with women is even less impressive than yours. But it _has_ honed my ability to detect rejection early on and avoid public humiliation to some degree. 

I would suggest that you avoid asking questions with yes/no answers. Most people, not just women, are loath to say "no" to people unless absolutely backed into a corner.


----------



## Rel (Oct 27, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Most people, not just women, are loath to say "no" to people unless absolutely backed into a corner.




Some are spineless enough that they won't even say "no" then.  This is why I always recommend backing them into a corner.


----------



## Desdichado (Oct 27, 2005)

You can "back me into a corner" anytime, Rel, you sexy beast.


----------



## Rel (Oct 27, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> You can "back me into a corner" anytime, Rel, you sexy beast.




This reminds me of an old saying that I just made up...

"A day without D&D is like a day at ENWorld without friendly homoeroticism."


----------



## Desdichado (Oct 27, 2005)

Ah, but didn't you get my code?  That meant "No."


----------



## fusangite (Oct 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> it always seems to be more easily intuited when watching one person flirt with another, than it is to be on the recieving end when not expecting it.



It's true. Wishful thinking can result in serious data corruption for some people.


----------



## glass (Oct 27, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> If you ask for someone's number and they don't give it to you, they mean "No. You can't have my number." Any response to a request for a number that does not include the correct sequence of numbers is a "no." Examples of statements meaning "no"
> - any sequence of more less than or more than 7 (or 10 if you have ten-digit local dialing)



That'd be 8 digits in Coventry (or more likely, 11 digits for a mobile no).



> I would suggest that you avoid asking questions with yes/no answers. Most people, not just women, are loath to say "no" to people unless absolutely backed into a corner.



I've heard that bit of advice before, but I always seem to forget it when it comes to the crunch.


glass.


----------



## glass (Oct 27, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> It's true. Wishful thinking can result in serious data corruption for some people.



*raises hand*


glass.


----------



## Rel (Oct 27, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Ah, but didn't you get my code?  That meant "No."




Tease.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Oct 27, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> Sometimes men want to vent too.
> 
> Still, you're not wrong.
> 
> ...





Oh indeed, indeed....I meant in general     Lord knows, I like to let loose with a pressure-relieving polemic now and then!


----------



## glass (Oct 27, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Oh indeed, indeed....I meant in general     Lord knows, I like to let loose with a pressure-relieving polemic now and then!



_I know that this is vitriol, no solutions, spleen venting but I feel better having railed on you..._
                                                                                -'Ignoreland', REM
 


glass.


----------



## Waylander the Slayer (Oct 27, 2005)

*Women, Men and Liquor*

So once upon a time in a land far far away:

Four guys went to a bar, after much drinking ( about 8-12shots of shapps, goldslagga, southern comfort and some mysterious black concoction):

Guy 1: I have been thinking of pick up lines and i have come up with the perfect one

Guy 2: Cool..pick up lines suck...you should just go up and say hello, it always works

Guy 3: so what is it? hmmm

Guy 1: Fat Penguins

Guys 2, 3 and 4: Whattt???

Guy 1: It's perfect! look a fat penguin...what happens when a fat penguin walks on ice?
Guy 2: huh?
Guy 3 ( science professor): It moves faster because of its weight and the lack of friction on a flat surface
Guy 4: You are an idiot.
Guy 1: you are all stupid...a fat penguin breaks the ice! get it, you are trying to break the ice!
Guys 2, 3 and 4: You are an Idiot!
Guy 1: anhuh, i will bet it will work.
Guy 2 ( a bit too drunk): hmmm (goes wandering off)
Guy 2: Hi there
Unsuspecting Girl: Hi
Guy 2: Fat penguins!
Girl: What???
Guy 2: Fat Penguins
Girl: How dare you call me fat*****
Guy 2:I am trying to break the ice, get it
Girl: you are such an***
Guy2: I need a drink..(passes out on the bar before it was finished and spent countless hours in the bathroom)

I have left the names out to protect the guilty and the innocent...errr..i mean dumb ***


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Oct 27, 2005)

You know what's wild?  I bet I can reconstruct the conversation from her point of view.



			
				glass's conversation from GFB's presepective said:
			
		

> _GFB: Are you going to do a glass-collecting run for me?
> 
> glass: No. _



_

Let's cut her a bit of slack.  Maybe she was fishing for a joke or funny response and misinterpreted your remark as being angry and bitter.  But even then, the gal has got a bit of thin skin.

No matter how you interpret things, it doesn't look like it would have panned out past the first date.  Sorry man.  Better go back to juggling anvils._


----------



## glass (Oct 27, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> You know what's wild?  I bet I can reconstruct the conversation from her point of view.
> 
> Let's cut her a bit of slack.  Maybe she was fishing for a joke or funny response and misinterpreted your remark as being angry and bitter.  But even then, the gal has got a bit of thin skin.



I thought 'I might have done if you'd rushed over and hugged me' was a funny response. OK, so it wasn't going to win any Perrier awards, but it wasn't bad off-the-cuff.

As for angry and bitter, I'm pretty sure I said it with a smile. 

_EDIT: Also, thinking back, I think I said something like 'I don't think so', rather than a flat no._



> No matter how you interpret things, it doesn't look like it would have panned out past the first date.  Sorry man.  Better go back to juggling anvils.



Since I joined a gym a couple of weeks ago, I feel like that's what been doing!  


glass.


----------



## glass (Oct 27, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Let's cut her a bit of slack. Maybe she was fishing for a joke or funny response and misinterpreted your remark as being angry and bitter. But even then, the gal has got a bit of thin skin.



Actually I did feel a bit bad about not helping her, because I knew she wasn't getting paid (although she was getting free drinks for the evening).

But per this bit of advice upthread (and lots of similar advice I have heard over the years)...


			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Indeed.  And you've got some great responses there, yourself.  This harks back to patented Teflon_Billy advice: don't be a sop to the girls; they like to see that you can stand up for yourself.  He would call it being just a bit of a jerk; I suppose that's one way to look at it.



...I didn't think doing favours just because a pretty girl smiled at me was a particularly smart move. It would have removed the incentive to do anything more than smile.  

And I did load the empties from our table into the carrier for her, as a consolation prize.


glass.


----------



## Desdichado (Oct 27, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> A day without D&D is like a day at ENWorld without friendly homoeroticism.



The more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to sig that "old saying."


----------



## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> It's true. Wishful thinking can result in serious data corruption for some people.




there's that, and "she can't possibly be flirting with me could she?  nah, must not be."


----------



## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> The more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to sig that "old saying."




go for it, hot stuff!


----------



## fusangite (Oct 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> there's that, and "she can't possibly be flirting with me could she?  nah, must not be."



Seriously, outside of Hollywood movies, when do men _ever_ make that error?


----------



## Desdichado (Oct 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> go for it, hot stuff!



Ooohh!  You're making me feel all tingly, BOZ!


----------



## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Seriously, outside of Hollywood movies, when do men _ever_ make that error?




until my mid-20s, i did all the time.  then i said, "hey stupid, i think she's trying to tell you something."


----------



## fusangite (Oct 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> until my mid-20s, i did all the time.  then i said, "hey stupid, i think she's trying to tell you something."



Ummm... and did any of these women ever confirm this view? Or was this just your friends trying to get you to bask in a shared delusion of desirability?

EDIT: I'm not specifically impugning your desirability BOZ. Just an observation about how young men talk to eachother.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

had nothing to do with what any guys said (not generally, at least), and had they told me a girl was interested in me i wouldn't have believed them.

and yes, the girls i had talked to later about it (after removing my head from my ass) confirmed that (at least at the time) i was a far more desirable fellow than i considered myself to be.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Oct 29, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> _I know that this is vitriol, no solutions, spleen venting but I feel better having railed on you..._
> -'Ignoreland', REM
> 
> 
> ...





Anyone who quotes REM in their post is "A #1" in my book!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## glass (Oct 31, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Anyone who quotes REM in their post is "A #1" in my book!!!!!!!!!!



Someone called me 'A #1'!   


glass.


----------



## glass (Dec 11, 2005)

*Suddenly Everything Was Clear*

I went to a birthday party last night, and who should be there but GFB? She was there with another girl (another FB, who is also kinda G, funnily enough), and they came and sat with us for as bit.

The reason she had been feeling undesirable (as described in my original post) was that the guy she had come in to see (one of the barmen) had been ignoring here all night. This I knew, but what I didn't know (or had somehow managed to forget come the morning) was that he had eventually stopped ignoring her and they had got together.

It kinda explains the awkwardness of our subsequent meeting, I suppose. After her previous conversation she knew I fancied her and she didn't want me to get the impression she was still available. Of course, the impression she gave me was more 'bitch' than 'taken', but I don't (now) think that that was what she was shooting for.

So, neither the angel I thought she was at first, nor the devil I had her characterised as subsequently. Just a normal girl, who isn't for me. Next!  


glass.


----------



## MavrickWeirdo (Dec 11, 2005)

So when she said, "'When I started here, I was hoping guys would ask me for my number," 

she realy meant "When I started here, I was hoping _the bartender_ would ask me for my number,"

talk about stalkers


----------



## ssampier (Dec 11, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> So, neither the angel I thought she was at first, nor the devil I had her characterised as subsequently. Just a normal girl, who isn't for me. Next!
> 
> 
> glass.





All's well that ends well. At least you didn't date her and waste time discovering she's not the one.

I have my own awkward tale of dating/women, I'm not sure I should thread-hijack though, but why not:

I was chatting with this young woman over IM. She was a nice girl, she was from the town I was attending college in. She was coming home for the weekend. We planned to attend my university's football homecoming game. Since I lived on campus and car-less, she was to call me when she arrived and we'd go together. It was getting late and no call; I gave her a call on her cell, no answer. I figured no big deal.

She called me that Monday saying that she left by plane to San Diego to visit her boyfriend. This is where I should have learned better, but I didn't. Stupid me, I forgave her and we planned to see a movie the week after as friends.

Needless to say, she didn't show up then either. The odd thing was that she flirting with me  on a few ocassions (before I knew she had a boyfriend); wasn't just my wishful thinking either. She'd describe the sexy things she liked to wear to bed if she wanted to, regular cotton PJs if not.

Oh well. Glad I didn't waste too much of my time....


----------



## Knightfall (Dec 11, 2005)

ssampier said:
			
		

> The odd thing was that she flirting with me  on a few ocassions (before I knew she had a boyfriend); wasn't just my wishful thinking either. She'd describe the sexy things she liked to wear to bed if she wanted to, regular cotton PJs if not.




There are a lot of women out there who like to do this. It comes from the concept of "harmless flirting". Women like to flirt, men like to score. The two concepts often collide in men not being able to sleep at night.  

Seriously though, I rarely find flirting to be harmless. Especially if I like the woman and she knows it. Then, it's just a pain in the butt (or, depending on the degree of interest, the heart)!  

One of my friends in a similar situation, but doesn't seem to realize the danger he's in. He went out with this girl once then she pulled an ex-boyfriend out of her hat, and told him that she would prefer to just be his friend.

Ouch.  

The worst part is that he seems to be going along with this 'friendship' even though he told me he REALLY likes her. Just last night she called him, drunk as a skunk, complaining bitterly about her laptop and how she needs him to fix it for her. However, she refuses to let him come and help her with it that night, as she "doesn't want him to see her wasted".

Now, that could all be Code, but I doubt it. (I don't speak Code, BTW.) She's pulled this stuff before and treats him like one of her "girlfriends". She's called him to vent about her current relationship and the like, in the past. However, I doubt he'll listen to me, and maybe that's for the best. (Me being jaded and all.)

I just worry that he's heading for a hurt. I just have to keep reminding myself I'm his friend, not his mother. 

Cheers!

KF72


----------



## ssampier (Dec 12, 2005)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> There are a lot of women out there who like to do this. It comes from the concept of "harmless flirting". Women like to flirt, men like to score. The two concepts often collide in men not being able to sleep at night.
> 
> Seriously though, I rarely find flirting to be harmless. Especially if I like the woman and she knows it. Then, it's just a pain in the butt (or, depending on the degree of interest, the heart)!




You're probably right. I was just hoping to go out with a nice girl. I wasn't really expecting _to score_ but I wanted to be _more than friends_ (otherwise known as _score eventually_).



> One of my friends in a similar situation, but doesn't seem to realize the danger he's in. He went out with this girl once then she pulled an ex-boyfriend out of her hat, and told him that she would prefer to just be his friend.




Poor guy. It seems outsiders tend to have a better view of a situation than the person in it (fog of _war-love_ or something).



> Now, that could all be Code, but I doubt it. (I don't speak Code, BTW.) She's pulled this stuff before and treats him like one of her "girlfriends". She's called him to vent about her current relationship and the like, in the past. However, I doubt he'll listen to me, and maybe that's for the best. (Me being jaded and all.)




As for the Code, I don't get it. I don't really get the Rules or any other "mind game". If I like someone, I'm going to tell them without any B.S. I guess that explains why I'm still single.

As for your friend, probably not.   He'll have to be played before he learns. Myself, I watched my friends being played and I was thinking I didn't want that. They told me, "When you meet the right girl, you'll think different." If it means acting like a dumb ass, no thanks.



> Cheers!




Is that a British or Canadian salutation? Either way I like it!


----------



## Knightfall (Dec 12, 2005)

ssampier said:
			
		

> As for the Code, I don't get it. I don't really get the Rules or any other "mind game". If I like someone, I'm going to tell them without any B.S. I guess that explains why I'm still single.




Me too. I don't like "mind games" and quickly lose interest in any woman who seems  to live her "social" life based on them. Of course, its a two-way street. A lot of guys play "The Game" too, but their intentions are sometimes less than honorable.

Strangely enough, those are the guys who seem to win the battles in the night clubs throughout the world. A lot of women go home with that personality type, but, I wonder, how often do those "interactions" actual go anywhere serious?



> Myself, I watched my friends being played and I was thinking I didn't want that. They told me, "When you meet the right girl, you'll think different." If it means acting like a dumb ass, no thanks.




Exactly! I'd rather be who I am and be miserable than be a total phony and be led around like a mindless dumb ass.



> Is that a British or Canadian salutation? Either way I like it!




Um, I don't know. For me, it's a personal choice, although sometimes I use "Regards" or...

Later,

KF72


----------



## LostSoul (Dec 12, 2005)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> Strangely enough, those are the guys who seem to win the battles in the night clubs throughout the world. A lot of women go home with that personality type, but, I wonder, how often do those "interactions" actual go anywhere serious?




I wonder if guys like that care.

And there isn't anything dishonourable about wanting to score.  Telling  lies to get there is.


----------



## fusangite (Dec 12, 2005)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> Me too. I don't like "mind games" and quickly lose interest in any woman who seems  to live her "social" life based on them.



I've used this before but I never tire of quoting myself. This is basically like trying to date in Brazil and complaining that you don't want to date women who speak Portuguese. 

In any genuinely important area of life such as dating, employment or politics, communication is coded. Why? Because, as a species, we talk about important things in code. Sorry but as a member of the human race, you're saddled with the "game." 

I'm not any good at it either but trying not to play is about the only gesture more futile than playing it badly.







> Strangely enough, those are the guys who seem to win the battles in the night clubs throughout the world. A lot of women go home with that personality type, but, I wonder, how often do those "interactions" actual go anywhere serious?



Yes. They often do.







> I'd rather be who I am and be miserable than be a total phony and be led around like a mindless dumb ass.



Well, some people get a charge out of being 
"right" over happy. I'll choose happy any day thanks very much. If you were actually given a choice between sexual success and being miserable, you'd make the same choice as me. You're just deeming yourself somehow morally virtuous based on your lack of romantic success because you haven't been presented with the alternative.


----------



## RangerWickett (Dec 12, 2005)

I just read Fu's post, so I really have no idea what this thread is about, but I wanted to share the following amusing story.

5 years ago, working at a college job, I met a cute girl who I became friends with. I was not interested in dating her, because I had a girlfriend, and even after I broke up with my girlfriend, I was still in the mindset of her being a friend.

1 year ago, we both graduated, and she went to Europe.

3 months ago, I met up with her again, and with the benefit of distance, I realized I was actually quite enamored with her. Alas, she was dating someone.

3 weeks ago, I found out she was single again.

1 and a half weeks ago, she came over to my apartment to give me a ride to a social function, and we talked about our respective dating situations. I figured it was a little early to ask her out, since I wasn't sure if she was over her last guy yet.

1 week ago, at a party, I, my roommate, and one of my friends realized we were the only 3 unattached men in our social circle. We ended up discussing women we were interested in, and we all named this girl. It was _oh so generously_ decided that, since I had known her longest, I got first 'dibs' on asking her out, but I was warned that I had only a week before they made their move.

Half a week ago, I asked her out, to see if she wanted to go to the new Georgia Aquarium, and was shot down.

Last night, my roommate asked her out, to see if she wanted to go to the new Georgia Aquarium. He has a date with her next weekend.

*amused grin*


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

heh heh... that's life.  but at least you had a gentlemen's agreement - some fellows would not play that fairly.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Dec 12, 2005)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> Me too. I don't like "mind games" and quickly lose interest in any woman who seems  to live her "social" life based on them.




Then you might as well pack it in, because to one degree or another _all_ women play mind games.

I don't even mean that maliciously, it's just the way things are done. the mind games you are talking about let a girl get a "feel" for how you would play out as a romantic partner while leaving her with an "out" should she decide against it.

You don't like that. Understood.

It's not going away. Hope you understand.



> Strangely enough, those are the guys who seem to win the battles in the night clubs throughout the world. A lot of women go home with that personality type, but, I wonder, how often do those "interactions" actual go anywhere serious?




Well, as one of "those guys", let me confirm for you that yes, indeed, the interactions occasionally go somewhere serious.

But that's not (or shouldnt be) the only acceptable goal. I prefer to think of the entire business as a continuum. some girls I will date casually, those with whom I stay for awhile are treated more seriously, further up the ladder=more serious. 

Just because a dalliance didn't result in a lifelong committment doesn't mean it was an abject failure. It was what it was.

In a similar thread to this ages ago, someone was describing how counter-productive my behaviour was by saying something like "Jerks get the girl, but the nice guys get the loving wife" or something.

That's wrong. Something closer to the truth (and more applicable to this thread's idiom) is "Game players get the girl, and can choose how to proceed from there".

If you don't get the girl to begin with, you aren't going to "get serious" or whatever your goal is. You will be stuck at the starting line, getting more desperate, and more self-righteously indignant with every passing night.



> I'd rather be who I am and be miserable than be a total phony and be led around like a mindless dumb ass.




Turning personality flaws into points of pride is one of the oldest dodges in the book.

"Miserable, but REAL" is a great recipe for becomeing a cranky, lonely old virgin, complaining about women and pretending you are OK with the fact that you are alone.

If you are actually Ok with beng alone--while admitting that it makes you miserable (ike you did above)--then I think you are probably a masochist.

No judgements being made there, but it's not a kink I think most folks would substitute for a fun relationship. 

And it's even sadder if it's not choice, but really your only viable option because you won't "play the game"


----------



## Teflon Billy (Dec 12, 2005)

Actually, I wish I had said it as well as *Fusangite *did in the post before mine.


----------



## Knightfall (Dec 12, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> I've used this before but I never tire of quoting myself. This is basically like trying to date in Brazil and complaining that you don't want to date women who speak Portuguese.
> 
> In any genuinely important area of life such as dating, employment or politics, communication is coded. Why? Because, as a species, we talk about important things in code. Sorry but as a member of the human race, you're saddled with the "game."




I guess, in my fervor of replying to ssampier's situation, I didn't clarify enough what I meant. The truth is when I say I don't speak "Code", I was referring more to the concept of presenting oneself (on either side of the equation) as being less than truthful or trustworthy. The concept of being a jerk/bitch in the worse possible way imaginable.

Call "that" the Vile Code TM, if you will. I do understand the basics of the use of code in society, as a species thing. (I was in computer sales for a long time.) I know that code, but don't get many chances to practice the craft. (I don't mean just relationships.)

Anyone who knows my situation, as I've stated in the past on other threads, understands what I mean.



			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> I'm not any good at it either but trying not to play is about the only gesture more futile than playing it badly.




I guess you can say, right now, I'm a bit of an outsider watching others play, as I have more important issues to deal with. Thus, my point of view is a bit skewed.



			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> "right" over happy. I'll choose happy any day thanks very much. If you were actually given a choice between sexual success and being miserable, you'd make the same choice as me. You're just deeming yourself somehow morally virtuous based on your lack of romantic success because you haven't been presented with the alternative.




Frustration in all aspects of my life have led me to become very jaded and overtly protective of my feelings. Thus, I tend to rant about the injustice of the Code of Life TM more than I should.

Am I miserable? Yes, but not because of a lack of sexual/romantic success. (And not every day.) Do I consider myself morally virtuous? God No!  



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Then you might as well pack it in, because to one degree or another _all_ women play mind games.
> 
> I don't even mean that maliciously, it's just the way things are done. the mind games you are talking about let a girl get a "feel" for how you would play out as a romantic partner while leaving her with an "out" should she decide against it.




TB, you're one of the many people here on EN World that makes this place great. I know you're intent is to be helpful, even if it is with a blunt object.



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> You don't like that. Understood.
> 
> It's not going away. Hope you understand.




_Sigh._ I understand. Like I said, life is tough right now for a lot of reasons, and that frustration found its way into my post. I won't ever believe in the Vile Code TM, but I understand and accept the Code of Life TM as being part of society. However, that doesn't mean I have to like "certain aspects" of even that code.  



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Well, as one of "those guys", let me confirm for you that yes, indeed, the interactions occasionally go somewhere serious.




As I suspected. Plus, I must point out I rarely go anywhere near night clubs anymore. I just don't find such places entertaining. I'm happier spending time with friends at the movies, in pool halls, and at sports bars (hockey, hockey!).

And, as "not" being one of "those guys", let me say that from the other side of the fence, it can be more than a little frustrating to watch you succeed time and time again. However, I'm sure you've been rejected from time to time. "Without failure, you cannot learn."



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> But that's not (or shouldnt be) the only acceptable goal. I prefer to think of the entire business as a continuum. some girls I will date casually, those with whom I stay for awhile are treated more seriously, further up the ladder=more serious.
> 
> Just because a dalliance didn't result in a lifelong committment doesn't mean it was an abject failure. It was what it was.
> 
> ...




Wise, blunt advice. As for me, there isn't a game for me at all right now, but I've already stated why, so I'll leave it at that.

I'll simply say "I'm not a jerk, but I'm not a nice guy either."



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Turning personality flaws into points of pride is one of the oldest dodges in the book.
> 
> "Miserable, but REAL" is a great recipe for becomeing a cranky, lonely old virgin, complaining about women and pretending you are OK with the fact that you are alone.




Okay, you got me.  

I let my troubles and personal flaws influence what I wrote. However, they are "my biases" for a reason. My life is not your life, and vice versa. I've lived through things, some that I handled fine, some that I didn't handle at all. It has made me torn between the things in life I love and the things I cannot stand.

Basically, I'm a mess. However, unlike 10 years ago, I now understand why I'm a mess and am trying to find a way too work through the worst of it. Meds, therapy, family & friends, exercise, and, yes, even EN World.

Also, I now have come to realize what "being alone" really means. A relationship would be great, but just being without a girlfriend (or a wife) doesn't even come close to being truly alone. I've been there -- my own fault, no one elses' -- and I nearly destroyed myself.

Anyway...



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> If you are actually Ok with beng alone--while admitting that it makes you miserable (ike you did above)--then I think you are probably a masochist.
> 
> No judgements being made there, but it's not a kink I think most folks would substitute for a fun relationship.
> 
> And it's even sadder if it's not choice, but really your only viable option because you won't "play the game"




I'm not alone as long as I have my family and friends. I am miserable for more than I could ever say here, but I'm trying to get better. There is a lot of sadness in my life, but it has to do more with recent events -- one in particular. (Christmas will be hard this year.)

However, I'm not okay being without some sort of loving relationship, but I know it won't solve the sadness. Would it make my life better? I would like to believe that? I use to believe it. I don't know how I lost that belief, but I did. It makes me anger and it makes my heart ache with sorrow. I suspect that is has been a gradual process over the last 15 years, due to more reasons than I could ever go into here (or probably should).

Regards,

Knightfall1972


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## glass (Dec 12, 2005)

ssampier said:
			
		

> All's well that ends well. At least you didn't date her and waste time discovering she's not the one.



Yeah, if there's any time-wasting to be done, I'll do it here at ENworld...  


glass.


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## Staffan (Dec 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> a new definition for phone... lovin.



From a Swedish female stand-up comedienne:
"I don't get the thing about phone sex. I mean, after you've put it in, you can't hear the other one anymore!"

(Or something like that, it's been a looong time since I saw that one).


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## fusangite (Dec 12, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Half a week ago, I asked her out, to see if she wanted to go to the new Georgia Aquarium, and was shot down.
> 
> Last night, my roommate asked her out, to see if she wanted to go to the new Georgia Aquarium. He has a date with her next weekend.
> 
> *amused grin*



To quote my favourite TV show (censored for ENWorld), "Sometimes she goes. Sometimes she doesn't go. That's the way she goes, boys. The f***ing way she goes."


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## fusangite (Dec 12, 2005)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> I know that code, but don't get many chances to practice the craft. (I don't mean just relationships.)
> 
> Anyone who knows my situation, as I've stated in the past on other threads, understands what I mean.



I've probably read these posts but remembered that it was you who made them. Sorry if I'm saying things that would be inappropriate or irrelevant if I recalled the posts.[QUITE]I guess you can say, right now, I'm a bit of an outsider watching others play, as I have more important issues to deal with.[/QUOTE]I hear you there. There have been various times in my life I have back-burnered the dating thing in favour of making other changes/improvements to myself that have enabled me to do a better job at this stuff in the long term.







> Frustration in all aspects of my life have led me to become very jaded and overtly protective of my feelings.



The great thing is that, no matter how unique your suffering feels and how individual its details are, almost everyone believes this about themselves. While this stuff is clearly more objectively true for some people than for others, this perception of oneself is a nigh-universal human trait.







> Am I miserable? Yes, but not because of a lack of sexual/romantic success. (And not every day.) Do I consider myself morally virtuous? God No!



Thanks for clearing that up.







> _Sigh._ I understand. Like I said, life is tough right now for a lot of reasons, and that frustration found its way into my post. I won't ever believe in the Vile Code TM, but I understand and accept the Code of Life TM as being part of society. However, that doesn't mean I have to like "certain aspects" of even that code.



You seem to be unecessarily creating a two codes system for categorizing social communication. You might want to revisit this.







> As I suspected. Plus, I must point out I rarely go anywhere near night clubs anymore.



As I said in a previous post, nightclubs are a CR8 dating encounter. Internet personals are CR1.







> I'm happier spending time with friends at the movies, in pool halls, and at sports bars (hockey, hockey!).



My understanding is that not all of these are utterly devoid of dating opportunities either.







> I let my troubles and personal flaws influence what I wrote.



Don't we all! I often blow off steam about this stuff inappropriately too. In fact, it's worked its way up into my Top Five Bad Habits at this point. The key thing, though, is to blow off steam while staying grounded in reality.







> Basically, I'm a mess. However, unlike 10 years ago, I now understand why I'm a mess and am trying to find a way too work through the worst of it. Meds, therapy, family & friends, exercise, and, yes, even EN World.



That's good to hear; many of us have been down the same road. It is okay to take a break from trying to date when working on some of this stuff, just as long as you commit to yourself a future date to get back into the game.







> I'm not alone as long as I have my family and friends.



Glad you're solid on the important things.







> However, I'm not okay being without some sort of loving relationship, but I know it won't solve the sadness.



This is a good point. There are lots of things one can do to become happier without making any progress on the dating front. As long as you keep doing incremental work on those other things, your life will improve.


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## Knightfall (Dec 12, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> I've probably read these posts but remembered that it was you who made them. Sorry if I'm saying things that would be inappropriate or irrelevant if I recalled the posts.




Some of it is. The big thing was the death of my brother in August. That has torn me down a lot over the last few months. Like I siad, Christmas is going to be really hard this year, as will his birthday next year.



> As I said in a previous post, nightclubs are a CR8 dating encounter. Internet personals are CR1.




ROFL! Good one. 



> My understanding is that not all of these are utterly devoid of dating opportunities either.




Very true, and the people you meet tend to be more grounded, IMHO.

Cheers!

KF72


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## Rel (Dec 12, 2005)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> Some of it is. The big thing was the death of my brother in August. That has torn me down a lot over the last few months. Like I siad, Christmas is going to be really hard this year, as will his birthday next year.




I don't have too much else to add to this thread but I wanted to say that you've my condolences about this.  One of my best friends since I was a kid died two years ago in August and I still think about him every single day.  Going through that without the support of my wife is something that I don't care to contemplate.

I wish you strength and peace, love and luck.


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## DaveStebbins (Dec 18, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> To quote my favourite TV show (censored for ENWorld), "Sometimes she goes. Sometimes she doesn't go. That's the way she goes, boys. The f***ing way she goes."



Wow, I could _swear_ I've read that one somewhere else before.   

-Dave


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