# DOCTOR WHO: "Deep Breath" (SPOILERS)



## Richards (Aug 25, 2014)

I'm a little surprised someone hasn't started a thread on this, given that the premiere was last night.  (Or is everybody waiting for the theatrical release tomorrow night?)

In any case, for those who have seen it (and those who are willing to peek at the thread and possibly get spoiled as to the contents): what did you think?

I thought the story was only about average, given that it was something of a "rerun."  But I enjoyed the return of Madame Vastra, Jenny, and Strax (especially Strax).  I thought Peter Capaldi did a fine job as a "post-regeneration, brain-scrambled" Doctor this episode, and am looking forward to his "Okay, the regeneration confusion is past now and this is how I'm going to be playing the role" version.  And there were some fantastic lines in this episode, my favorite being an outraged Clara's "Nothing's more important than my egotism!"  (I think my second favorite was the Doctor's "I hate being wrong in public -- everybody forget I said that!")

I guess we're to assume that the TARDIS extended its protective bubble around the Tyrannosaurus as it brought her through time?  Because my understanding that the only way Captain Jack Harkness survived the trip on the outside of the TARDIS was due to his immortality and inability to be permanently killed.  (Clara recently survived a trip on the outside of the TARDIS, but only because the TARDIS was actively protecting her.)

Matt Smith's appearance at the end was a surprise.

And for those of you who watched the "After Who" special which aired after "The Intruders" (I didn't bother watching that), it was cool seeing "Dub-Dub" from "The Middleman" again.

I'm looking forward to next week's Dalek episode.

Final thought: for those of you who end up seeing this episode at the theater, there's supposed to be an extra scene at the beginning.  Anybody care to let us know what that was about?

Johnathan


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## Morrus (Aug 25, 2014)

The cinema release was simulcast yesterday at the same time as the episode.

The extra scene was Strax summarising all the Doctors with some jokes at each's expense.

I enjoyed it, though origin stories (inc. regen confusion stores) are too familiar. Too much allusion to topical politics with the Scottish referendum next month. And the Paternostas need to be a kids' TV show to replace SJA ASAP.

As a side note, the tramp he got the coat from was Elizabeth Sladen's husband.

Who do folks think the woman at the end was?


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## trappedslider (Aug 25, 2014)

I think it left a few more questions than just "Who is Missy?"  such as “Who frowned me this face?” 

Which means that instead of randomly making a face for the new Doctor it was chosen for some reason, which I look forward to seeing if it's a season lone arc or just a few episodes. Both Moffat and RTD have a plan and I am excited to see exactly what it is and how it affects the Whoverse.

As for Missy, she called the Doctor her Boyfriend..better not let River hear that lol. It was strongly implied that she gave Clara the number to call the Doctor last season.


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## Umbran (Aug 25, 2014)

Morrus said:


> The cinema release was simulcast yesterday at the same time as the episode.




The cinematic release in the US isn't until Monday the 25th.



> Who do folks think the woman at the end was?




My top guess is that "Missy" is the intelligence behind the damaged spaceship from "The Girl In the Fireplace".  

Though, with mysterious ships with names like Marie Antoinette and Madame Pompadour... I'm kind of hoping to see the Rani behind it all, maybe in another season or so...


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## Morrus (Aug 25, 2014)

Umbran said:


> The cinematic release in the US isn't until Monday the 25th.




Russia doesn't get it till next Thursday. I think Oz got it simulcasted in cinemas; not sure. I know the episode was on TV.


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## Morrus (Aug 25, 2014)

trappedslider said:


> Which means that instead of randomly making a face for the new Doctor it was chosen for some reason, which I look forward to seeing if it's a season lone arc or just a few episodes. Both Moffat and RTD have a plan and I am excited to see exactly what it is and how it affects the Whoverse.




So he was chosen because he was the right actor for the part. The face/previous roles thing will be tied in casually, but not as a big thing. As Moffat said in the cinema Q&A, everyone knows his face resembles a couple of people because it's the same actor, just like Watson looks like Bilbo. You can use a throwaway line, but they aren't going to insult the audience by pretending they had some big plan when they didn't. He said to expect a few lines here and there, but that's all.



> It was strongly implied that she gave Clara the number to call the Doctor last season.




Yeah, that was fairly explicit. Interesting.


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## trappedslider (Aug 25, 2014)

Morrus said:


> So he was chosen because he was the right actor for the part. The face/previous roles thing will be tied in casually, but not as a big thing. As Moffat said in the cinema Q&A, everyone knows his face resembles a couple of people because it's the same actor, just like Watson looks like Bilbo. You can use a throwaway line, but they aren't going to insult the audience by pretending they had some big plan when they didn't. He said to expect a few lines here and there, but that's all.
> .




Based on what I've read and posted way back a few months ago on this very subject, I think it's more than just a few throw away lines 



> In a video interview with Nerd3, Moffat mentioned that Davies had always had a reason behind Capaldi’s double-time in the Whoniverse. When the man was cast as the Twelfth Doctor, Davies called up Moffat to tell him how happy he was with the choice and according to the Moff:“I said, ‘Okay, what was your theory and does it still work?” and he said, ‘Yes it does. Here it is…’”​But the best part is that Moffat is actually planning on using Davies’ idea. His plan for Capaldi’s Doctor is to “play that one out over time. It’s actually quite neat.”




http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/10/russell-t-davies-created-a-secret-origin-for-the-12th-doctor

so it looks like everything fell into place for this plan. We shall see how it all plays out this season

also 
 and Trivia : The intro used was done by a fan on youtube


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## delericho (Aug 25, 2014)

I had mixed feelings. Which meant I was disappointed on balance - though that might be my own fault for uncontrolled expectations.

In particular, I felt the extended runtime was largely wasted - it felt like they'd crammed 45 minutes of episode into a 90 minute slot. Which was a real shame, because quite often they could actually do with the extended runtime. But, like Morrus, I've seen regeneration stories several times now, and while this one was okay, it wasn't the best, and it brought very little that was new.



Morrus said:


> Who do folks think the woman at the end was?




My initial guess would be the Rani, although how they'd square that with the Doctor knowing he's alone (as established wrt the Master coming back), I don't know. Perhaps she's first Time Lord to escape through the crack in reality?


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## The_Silversword (Aug 25, 2014)

I was a little disappointed in it, I was under the impression that they was going in darker, more mature direction, but it seemed more slapstickish to me, maybe the next episode will be more to my liking, I dunno, so far im not real impressed with Capaldi's Doctor, but i guess its a little early yet to be making that call.


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## Umbran (Aug 25, 2014)

delericho said:


> My initial guess would be the Rani, although how they'd square that with the Doctor knowing he's alone (as established wrt the Master coming back), I don't know. Perhaps she's first Time Lord to escape through the crack in reality?




Meh.  If there were Daleks that avoided the situation, so could the Rani.

One simple solution is this:  The Doctor zapped Gallifrey away, and slapped a time lock on the whole thing.  So Time Lords were off in another universe, Daleks had self-destructed, and nobody could find out why (or even mostly remember either side), and any surviving TLs or Ds were back behind the time lock (okay, so a few Daleks managed to escape).  

So, say the Rani was not on Gallifrey when the Doctor zapped the planet away?  She would still have been trapped behind the time lock on events (thus explaining why she hasn't shown up before).  But now, that time lock is gone - everyone remembers what Time Lords are, as is clear from the siege of Trenzalore.  That means anyone not on Gallifrey at the end of the Time War is now free to roam...


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## delericho (Aug 25, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Meh.  If there were Daleks that avoided the situation, so could the Rani.




Sure, but that wasn't quite what I meant. Back just before the Master was reintroduced, the Doctor commented that he knew he was the only survivor because he would have sensed if there had been another. They got around that for the Master by the use of the Chameleon Arch - effectively, the Master wasn't a Time Lord until Martha talked him into looking into his watch.

So if the Rani had escaped the destruction of Gallifrey but was still out there, the Doctor should have sensed her.

Having said all that...



> So, say the Rani was not on Gallifrey when the Doctor zapped the planet away?  She would still have been trapped behind the time lock on events (thus explaining why she hasn't shown up before).  But now, that time lock is gone - everyone remembers what Time Lords are, as is clear from the siege of Trenzalore.  That means anyone not on Gallifrey at the end of the Time War is now free to roam...




Yep, this makes sense.


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## MarkB (Aug 25, 2014)

I really disliked the new theme tune and intro sequence. The music feels like change for change's sake, and loses a lot compared to previous seasons' themes, and the intro feels too busy and too gimmicky - do we really need whirling clock faces to tell us that the Doctor travels through time?

I had trouble with the idea that Clara had so much difficulty accepting a new Doctor. This is the Impossible Girl, who travelled through the Doctor's entire lifetimes undoing the Great Intelligence's interference - she's seen him in every incarnation, and more recently she interacted directly with his ninth and eleventh incarnations. Of all possible companions, she should have been the least likely to be thrown by such a change. In hindsight, though, I can accept that "least likely" doesn't necessarily mean "unlikely" in this context.

The villain lacked any screen presence whatsoever, failing to summon up the creepiness of the Clockwork Robots from _Girl in the Fireplace_ or the body-horror of the Borg. The Doctor's attempts to talk him down felt utterly one-sided, with little impression that he was affected on an emotional level, or even that he had an emotional level upon which to be affected.

On the other hand, the Paternoster Gang turned in an excellent performance as always, continuing to be some of the better recurring characters in the series, and once we'd gone through the usual post-regenerative rigmarole, Capaldi's Doctor was on very good form, a promising sign for future episodes.


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## Umbran (Aug 25, 2014)

delericho said:


> So if the Rani had escaped the destruction of Gallifrey but was still out there, the Doctor should have sensed her.




Yep.  That's why we place her back behind the time lock until Day of the Doctor resolves.  

There gets to be some hinkeyness in the logic, in that we have evidence of Time Lords around and about even while the Time Lock is still in place.  Just as some Daleks escaped by being outside the normal timestream, some Time Lords (the Corsair, for one) also managed the trick.  Mind you, the Corsair managed the trick by being dead in a bubble universe, and that's not exactly a win for him/her....

I would love to see the Corsair in action, before his/her death...



MarkB said:


> I had trouble with the idea that Clara had so much difficulty accepting a new Doctor. This is the Impossible Girl, who traveled through the Doctor's entire lifetimes undoing the Great Intelligence's interference - she's seen him in every incarnation, and more recently she interacted directly with his ninth and eleventh incarnations.




It is pretty clear that her memory of that is hazy, at best.  Plus, her interactions with the other regenerations seemed to have been quick - quick enough that the Doctor himself doesn't generally note them.  This leads to a difference between her intellectual knowledge and her emotions.  Intellectually, she knows they were all The Doctor.  But, emotionally, for her there's really only one, and he looks like Matt Smith.


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## Umbran (Aug 25, 2014)

delericho said:


> Yep, this makes sense.




Well, not really.  A whole lot of things about this make no sense whatsoever.  I am waving my rhetorical hands really fast, and hoping nobody notices.


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## delericho (Aug 25, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Well, not really.  A whole lot of things about this make no sense whatsoever.  I am waving my rhetorical hands really fast, and hoping nobody notices.




Well, yeah. But so has Steven Moffat since "The Impossible Astronaut" (if not before). "Makes sense" is a malleable concept where Doctor Who is concerned.


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## Hand of Evil (Aug 25, 2014)

I will see if the new Doctor grows on me, still miss David.  

As far as Missy, her with that umbrella kind of reminded me of Mary Poppins, which would be a very interesting character with for Doctor Who.


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## trappedslider (Aug 25, 2014)

MarkB said:


> I really disliked the new theme tune and intro sequence. The music feels like change for change's sake, and loses a lot compared to previous seasons' themes, and the intro feels too busy and too gimmicky - do we really need whirling clock faces to tell us that the Doctor travels through time?




For that you can blame the fan who made it and got The Moff's attention on youtube since that's where it came from


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## Crothian (Aug 25, 2014)

Hand of Evil said:


> I will see if the new Doctor grows on me, still miss David.
> 
> As far as Missy, her with that umbrella kind of reminded me of Mary Poppins, which would be a very interesting character with for Doctor Who.




Her bag is bigger on the inside!


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## Herschel (Aug 25, 2014)

I liked it, overall. The plot was seemingly a throwaway vessel as a medium for character bits, but that's okay, especially as Moffat probably has a plan to make it more relevent than it initially seemed.


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## MarkB (Aug 25, 2014)

trappedslider said:


> For that you can blame the fan who made it and got The Moff's attention on youtube since that's where it came from




I don't blame him - I'm sure it's to his personal taste, and he probably never expected it to be more than just a fan-work. It's Moffatt and the production team who thought it was a good idea to put it on TV.


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## Morrus (Aug 25, 2014)

MarkB said:


> I don't blame him - I'm sure it's to his personal taste, and he probably never expected it to be more than just a fan-work. It's Moffatt and the production team who thought it was a good idea to put it on TV.




They're right. It's excellent.


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## MarkB (Aug 25, 2014)

Morrus said:


> They're right. It's excellent.




Maybe it'll grow on me, but I really doubt it.


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## Morrus (Aug 26, 2014)

Re. Missy -- I think she's the Master. After all that "is it time for a female Doctor?" discussion last year, changing the Master's gender would be a bit of an acknowledgement of that.


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## Warunsun (Aug 26, 2014)

Liked the new doctor but was generally unimpressed with the episode. Probably holding expectations too high on my part. Looking forward to more however.


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## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2014)

Looks like the Doctor broke a couple of records  http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/scifi/doctor-season-8-highest-rated-season-premiere.html hopefully it can keep those numbers


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## Crothian (Aug 26, 2014)

Is the title some meta reference for the fans to calm down with the new doctor? I know it kind of fits since they held their breathe to fool the clockwork creations but I wonder if there is not some double meaning there. The episode did seem to lecture the fans that this change is an okay one.


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## Morrus (Aug 26, 2014)

trappedslider said:


> Looks like the Doctor broke a couple of records  http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/scifi/doctor-season-8-highest-rated-season-premiere.html hopefully it can keep those numbers




Dunno why that website thinks that, but it got only 6.8 million. Fairly low. Much less than Smith's opening episode.

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5707035


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## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Dunno why that website thinks that, but it got only 6.8 million. Fairly low. Much less than Smith's opening episode.
> 
> http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5707035




I'm guessing that huffington's article was dealing with the UK numbers only since it says 







> viewing figures in the UK were down for Peter Capaldi's debut in 'Doctor Who'.



 

and



> However, these figures do not take into account the other fans heading to cinemas across the globe to watch their favourite show on the big screen.





As for GFR, they cited BBC America,which i'm guessing means here in the US it broke those records.


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## Umbran (Aug 26, 2014)

I am not sure about the UK, but in the US there's also gong to be statistics for how many people recorded on a DVR, and there'll be the 3-day total viewing to consider - GFR may have been including those estimates.


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## Morrus (Aug 26, 2014)

Yeah, in the UK those will be the overnights. A week later you get the time shifted and iPlayer figures added, which tends to be a 1-2 million boost.

Cinema stuff is cool, but it's pretty small fry, viewer-wise.


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## Umbran (Aug 26, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Re. Missy -- I think she's the Master. After all that "is it time for a female Doctor?" discussion last year, changing the Master's gender would be a bit of an acknowledgement of that.




One fanciful idea I've heard is that she is... kind of like the Valeyard.  But instead of being a summation of the Doctor's negative aspects, she's his mistakes - and thus "Missy".  This ties in with his, 'I've made some mistakes..." line.


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## Morrus (Aug 26, 2014)

Umbran said:


> One fanciful idea I've heard is that she is... kind of like the Valeyard.  But instead of being a summation of the Doctor's negative aspects, she's his mistakes - and thus "Missy".  This ties in with his, 'I've made some mistakes..." line.




That doesn't appeal to me. I never really liked the idea of the Valeyard, and doing it again but slightly different would irk me. 

I'm hoping for a female Master. While the Rani is kind of that, I think changing the Master's gender would be a clever move on their part. They've mentioned a Time Lords like the Corsair changing gender, but it would be a strong precedent to actually do it for a major existing character.


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## Raunalyn (Aug 27, 2014)

I wasn't really all that impressed with the writing of this episode. However, the acting, particularly by Capaldi, was quite good.

It's a testament to Capaldi's acting chops that, during the episode, you could see the previous Doctors coming through in Capaldi's movements and mannerisms.


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## The_Silversword (Aug 27, 2014)

Re: Missy

I think its pretty obvious, she refereed to the Doctor as her boyfriend, and when Clara gets the phone call from the Doctor, The Doctor says, who is it your boyfriend, or something like that, so Missy is obviously Clara from the future or an alternate timeline or something, who else would know about impossible girl, or the T.A.R.D.I.S.'s phone number?


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## Umbran (Aug 27, 2014)

The_Silversword said:


> Re: Missy
> 
> I think its pretty obvious, she refereed to the Doctor as her boyfriend, and when Clara gets the phone call from the Doctor, The Doctor says, who is it your boyfriend, or something like that, so Missy is obviously Clara from the future or an alternate timeline or something, who else would know about impossible girl, or the T.A.R.D.I.S.'s phone number?




Who else would know?  Well, the TARDIS itself, for one.  It is sentient, and has manifested as a female aspect in the past.  River Song is another.  I suspect any Time Lord can figure out how to reach the phone in the Doctor's TARDIS easily - and anyone who has studied the Doctor enough to recognize there's this young woman popping up in his timeline repeatedly saving him will figure out her importance.  So, again, any Time Lord, or anyone with a lot of information.

The question is who can do it - that can be hand-waved.  The question is *why*.  Why try to keep Clara and the Doctor together?  Find the answer to why, and that will tell you who.


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## Morrus (Aug 27, 2014)

Craploads of people have the TARDIS phone number. Churchill, random Egyptian queens without phones, Martha, UNIT... I suspect it's listed given how popular it is.


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## MarkB (Aug 27, 2014)

There's one possibility I'm surprised nobody's suggested yet for Missy: A Time Lady who could very well have survived Gallifrey's time-lock, on account of having been in a different universe when we last saw her, and who spent enough time as the Doctor's close companion that she'd certainly have a reasonable claim on calling him her boyfriend.

Romana.


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## Umbran (Aug 27, 2014)

MarkB said:


> Romana.




Well, she does show up in several of the novels and audio plays - even becomes Lady President of the High Council.

They'd have a lot of 'splainin' to do, to turn her into an antagonist, though.


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## Janx (Aug 27, 2014)

MarkB said:


> There's one possibility I'm surprised nobody's suggested yet for Missy: A Time Lady who could very well have survived Gallifrey's time-lock, on account of having been in a different universe when we last saw her, and who spent enough time as the Doctor's close companion that she'd certainly have a reasonable claim on calling him her boyfriend.
> 
> Romana.




I don't know who Rani is, but having read the Douglas Adams book featuring Romana, that's who i assumed it might be.

I never really watched pre-Ecleston Who, so I'm only vaguely familar with Tom Baker (guy with long scarf), and that first doctor with his grand-daughter.


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## Morrus (Aug 27, 2014)

Janx said:


> I don't know who Rani is, but having read the Douglas Adams book featuring Romana, that's who i assumed it might be.
> 
> I never really watched pre-Ecleston Who, so I'm only vaguely familar with Tom Baker (guy with long scarf), and that first doctor with his grand-daughter.




She was a recurring villain, a renegade time lord like the Master. She also featured a T-Rex in one ep, which was growing abnormally. She was responsible for killing the 6th Doctor (Colin Baker), making him regenerate into the 7th (Sylvester McCoy).


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## Umbran (Aug 27, 2014)

Morrus said:


> She was a recurring villain, a renegade time lord like the Master. She also featured a T-Rex in one ep, which was growing abnormally. She was responsible for killing the 6th Doctor (Colin Baker), making him regenerate into the 7th (Sylvester McCoy).




And there was some suggestion that they'd had a prior relationship, possibly romantic, allowing for the "boyfriend" angle.


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## Janx (Aug 27, 2014)

Morrus said:


> She was a recurring villain, a renegade time lord like the Master. She also featured a T-Rex in one ep, which was growing abnormally. She was responsible for killing the 6th Doctor (Colin Baker), making him regenerate into the 7th (Sylvester McCoy).




Any reason she gets a "normal" name instead of a title?

Seems like the writers were variable with what TimeLord gets titled versus named (ex. The Master, The Doctor vs. Romana, Rani).

I reckon I need to keep watching the batch of old episodes Netflix made available, but it's really kind of painful watching the really old stuff..


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## Morrus (Aug 27, 2014)

Janx said:


> Any reason she gets a "normal" name instead of a title?
> 
> Seems like the writers were variable with what TimeLord gets titled versus named (ex. The Master, The Doctor vs. Romana, Rani).




The Rani, not Rani.


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## Umbran (Aug 27, 2014)

Janx said:


> Any reason she gets a "normal" name instead of a title?
> 
> Seems like the writers were variable with what TimeLord gets titled versus named (ex. The Master, The Doctor vs. Romana, Rani).
> 
> I reckon I need to keep watching the batch of old episodes Netflix made available, but it's really kind of painful watching the really old stuff..




Actually, it *is* "The Rani".

While the differences have never been explained, most of the titled Time Lords seem to be renegades, or otherwise working outside the norms of Gallifreyan society.


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## MarkB (Aug 27, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Well, she does show up in several of the novels and audio plays - even becomes Lady President of the High Council.
> 
> They'd have a lot of 'splainin' to do, to turn her into an antagonist, though.




So far, I'd classify Missy as only ambiguously an antagonist - she hasn't actually done anything bad or expressed any evil intent yet.

On a second viewing she's not particularly Romana-like, but regeneration could account for that.

However, that line about how she likes his new accent and thinks _she_ might keep it - that does seem suggestive that she's much more intimately linked to him, either a future incarnation, or some form of reflection or alternate version of him.


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## Janx (Aug 28, 2014)

Morrus said:


> The Rani, not Rani.




Good to know.  Does that mean The Rani means something?  Since it's not The Professor, The Master, The Corsair, as in a word I'm familiar with.


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## Morrus (Aug 28, 2014)

Janx said:


> Good to know.  Does that mean The Rani means something?  Since it's not The Professor, The Master, The Corsair, as in a word I'm familiar with.




Real word. Means "Queen" - Indian in origin, I think.


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## HobbitFan (Aug 28, 2014)

I liked the new Doctor.   Not enough with him interacting with his friends.  I don't get the point of including Strax, Vastra and Jenny if Clara is going to be the only one talking to them.  Capaldi was by himself too much of the episode.  

I can't say I especially cared for the story or the villains though.  
I didn't really like the clockwork robots in Girl in the Fireplace and I cared for them even less here.  


I generally like Moffat as a writer but this one felt a little phoned-in.


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## Morrus (Aug 28, 2014)

Dunno if this is true (I'll have to rewatch it) but somebody said that they could hear Stevie Wonder playing on the frozen Thames. Anyone notice that? It seems unlikely to me, because if the 11th Doctor and River are celebrating her birthday there, I imagine they'd have noticed the dinosaur.


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## The_Silversword (Aug 28, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Who else would know?  Well, the TARDIS itself, for one.  It is sentient, and has manifested as a female aspect in the past.  River Song is another.  I suspect any Time Lord can figure out how to reach the phone in the Doctor's TARDIS easily - and anyone who has studied the Doctor enough to recognize there's this young woman popping up in his timeline repeatedly saving him will figure out her importance.  So, again, any Time Lord, or anyone with a lot of information.
> 
> The question is who can do it - that can be hand-waved.  The question is *why*.  Why try to keep Clara and the Doctor together?  Find the answer to why, and that will tell you who.




Yeah, but who else would know that the Doctor ditched Clara in Victorian London, at that particular time, and knew about the restaurant that wasnt really a restaurant? Of course im doing alot of speculating assuming 'Missy' was the one that put the add in the paper and was the 'woman at the shop' who gave Clara the number to the T.A.R.D.I.S.. Yeah it could be anyone, or an entirely new character, but my moneys still on Clara, or at least one of her fragmented selves. The Doctor's comment about a egomaniac, needy, gameplayer type of person also leads me to think that Missy is Clara, but then again maybe thats what we're supposed to think.


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## Viking Bastard (Aug 28, 2014)

In that final scene in "Heaven", I immediately thought of Silence in the Library's database.


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## Umbran (Aug 28, 2014)

The_Silversword said:


> Yeah, but who else would know that the Doctor ditched Clara in Victorian London, at that particular time, and knew about the restaurant that wasnt really a restaurant?




Um, anyone who heard about the *GIANT DINOSAUR OUTSIDE PARLIAMENT* maybe?  Those things don't happen in Victorian London every day without the Doctor's involvement.  All you have to do then is look up Strax and Vastra, who aren't exactly hard to pick out in a crowd, if you know what I mean.

But, none of that is necessary.  You're speaking as if Missy is otherwise unconnected to these events, having newly stumbled in.  If Missy is, instead, directly connected to the clockwork androids in some way, then there's no puzzle.  Then, all we need is someone capable of some form of time-travel, or an extremely long lifespan.  Time Lords have the one, and the clockwork androids have the other.

Thus: another time lord (The Master, or the Rani) or the intelligence behind the androids.  I can't rule out Clara herself, as she has the required information.  But so far we've not seen her keep clear memory of events among the various bits of the Doctor's timeline, nor any ability to independently and willfully move her consciousness through time - basically, we don't see that she can plan and scheme across time to make things happen.  They foreshadow so much on this show, I would have expected to see foreshadowing of such ability, if that is what they were going to do.

The basic "why" I can think of unfortunately applies to all enemies of the Doctor.  Right now, Clara can be expected to show up in any point in the Doctor's timeline in order to save him.  Her doing so unexpectedly can ruin a plot.  If Clara and the Doctor are kept together, then you can plan for her involvement.  "Keep your enemies closer," basically.

Oh, and I realized why it can't be River Song.  River would refer to him as *husband*, not boyfriend.


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## Umbran (Aug 28, 2014)

Umbran said:


> The basic "why" I can think of unfortunately applies to all enemies of the Doctor.  Right now, Clara can be expected to show up in any point in the Doctor's timeline in order to save him.  Her doing so unexpectedly can ruin a plot.  If Clara and the Doctor are kept together, then you can plan for her involvement.  "Keep your enemies closer," basically.




I should add - this is one of those things we likely agree on is correct, but in fact makes no sense whatsoever. 

You see, Clara is the impossible girl because she entered the scar of the Doctor's timeline on Trenzalore.  But, The Doctor *DIDN'T DIE* on Trenzalore.  The scar is not there for her to enter later!  So, she can't be the impossible girl, because the scar isn't there for her to enter, and she *doesn't* go around saving the Doctor....

Oh, wait, I get it then.  Suppose that's all true.  So, what the devil happens to the Clara that is clearly back in that timeline, but has no way to ave ever gotten there?  She is herself now a temporal anomaly, a truly impossible girl.  That Clara can become Missy.    

Except, if this is true, then Missy then cannot have automatic knowledge of events *after* Trenzalore - it is at that point that our Clara and Missy must diverge.   She *doesn't* know the Doctor's going to show up in Victorian London with a dinosaur. Doesn't automatically know about the robots in the restaurant, and so on.


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## Janx (Aug 28, 2014)

Let's take what we know about the writers of Doctor Who.

They Lie.

One complaint I hear about the recent writing of Who (ie. Moffat) is that the show will say "such and such isn't possible" and then at the end, the impossible thing is exactly what it is.

So, what has been said to be impossible?

That, is what it will be.


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## Umbran (Aug 29, 2014)

Janx said:


> .So, what has been said to be impossible?




About this?  Nothing that I know of.  

Moffatt has been quoted as saying that the Master's story is done.  Following the same logic, lots of folks are thinking that this is the same character, as The Mistress, and therefore not the Master, because Moffat lies.  I understand the logic - but it leads to the shotgun attempt to figure it out - ask Moffat who she is, and anything he denies will be it.  And you're hosed if he denies several things 

"Mr. Moffat!  Is Missy actually your pet cat?"
"No, that's silly.  My cat is... a cat.  You saw a person.  My cat can't be Missy."

Well, then....


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## monkeykenobi (Aug 29, 2014)

Viking Bastard said:


> In that final scene in "Heaven", I immediately thought of Silence in the Library's database.



I think you have it...


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## Janx (Aug 29, 2014)

Umbran said:


> About this?  Nothing that I know of.
> 
> Moffatt has been quoted as saying that the Master's story is done.  Following the same logic, lots of folks are thinking that this is the same character, as The Mistress, and therefore not the Master, because Moffat lies.  I understand the logic - but it leads to the shotgun attempt to figure it out - ask Moffat who she is, and anything he denies will be it.  And you're hosed if he denies several things
> 
> ...




Well, that's taking it too literally as what Moffat himself says.

Look to what the characters, particularly the Doctor says.

In the beginning of the episode, everybody is asking "who is behind the mystery" and the doctor is saying that's the wrong question.  I predict we will see this motif throughout the season.

Which in turn means it is precisely the correct question.

Besides, they never answered the last season's question, "Doctor who?"


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## The_Silversword (Aug 29, 2014)

Umbran said:


> I should add - this is one of those things we likely agree on is correct, but in fact makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> You see, Clara is the impossible girl because she entered the scar of the Doctor's timeline on Trenzalore.  But, The Doctor *DIDN'T DIE* on Trenzalore.  The scar is not there for her to enter later!  So, she can't be the impossible girl, because the scar isn't there for her to enter, and she *doesn't* go around saving the Doctor....
> 
> ...




I was just thinking of this, of course i guess the Doctor could still die on Trenzalore later on, I dunno, maybe since the Great Intelligence and Clara both stepped into the Doctor's time rift, maybe pieces of them sorta merged together and maybe Missy is actually the Great Intelligence AND Clara, and since the Doctor stepped through as well maybe theres some of him in there too, yeah, I think thats my new theory.


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## The_Silversword (Aug 29, 2014)

Viking Bastard said:


> In that final scene in "Heaven", I immediately thought of Silence in the Library's database.




Nah, cant be, Silence has fallen, right?


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## Bedrockgames (Aug 29, 2014)

For Missy, I was wondering if she might be Clara actually. Usually I am way off on these predictions though. I explained my reasons HERE along with one other idea.


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## The_Silversword (Aug 30, 2014)

Bedrockgames said:


> For Missy, I was wondering if she might be Clara actually. Usually I am way off on these predictions though. I explained my reasons HERE along with one other idea.




IM glad im not the only one thinking Clara, but thinking on it some, maybe thats what Moffat wants us to think, arrgghhh, guess, we'll just have to wait and see. After watching the episode again, im wondering if she said im Missy, or Im Miss E?


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## MarkB (Aug 30, 2014)

The_Silversword said:


> IM glad im not the only one thinking Clara, but thinking on it some, maybe thats what Moffat wants us to think, arrgghhh, guess, we'll just have to wait and see. After watching the episode again, im wondering if she said im Missy, or Im Miss E?




I wondered the same thing, but it didn't really seem to lead anywhere. I can't think of an existing character whose name begins with E that would be a good fit with what we've seen of "Missy".


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## Morrus (Aug 30, 2014)

With today's episode, I like Capaldi more. I can see where they're going with that.

Interesting intro to Danny Pink, the crying soldier. 

The Doctor doesn't travel with soldiers, eh?

Missy takes another recently-deceased character who died in the Doctor's presence. Theme starting to appear there.


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## MarkB (Aug 30, 2014)

I liked Capaldi's Doctor a lot in the second episode, and the central concept was clever and well done.

I do wish they'd do something new with the Daleks, though. Morally speaking, this episode was treading over exactly the same ground as "Dalek" and "Journey's End".


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## Cergorach (Aug 30, 2014)

I don't know what it is exactly, but I'm enjoying Doctor Who (new series) less then I used to.

I think that Capaldi is a good actor, but how the Doctor is now written I like him less. He's a bit Angsty imho... Not what I want in a Doctor Who episode...


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## Morrus (Aug 30, 2014)

Cergorach said:


> I don't know what it is exactly, but I'm enjoying Doctor Who (new series) less then I used to.
> 
> I think that Capaldi is a good actor, but how the Doctor is now written I like him less. He's a bit Angsty imho... Not what I want in a Doctor Who episode...




Weird. He's the antithesis of angsty! Tennant was a bit angsty; Capaldi is completely anti-angst. His Doctor utterly rejects angst.


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## Cergorach (Aug 30, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Weird. He's the antithesis of angsty! Tennant was a bit angsty; Capaldi is completely anti-angst. His Doctor utterly rejects angst.




The current Doctor seems confused, doesn't know whether he's good or bad (or which of the two he wants to be), doesn't know what he's supposed to do. And while he isn't pacing so much, it does feel like he's all over the place. The Doctor seems lost...


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## Morrus (Aug 30, 2014)

Cergorach said:


> The current Doctor seems confused, doesn't know whether he's good or bad (or which of the two he wants to be), doesn't know what he's supposed to do. And while he isn't pacing so much, it does feel like he's all over the place. The Doctor seems lost...




Ah, got it. He asked Clara at one point if he was a good man? Sure, I guess that could be angsty. The other 44 of the 45 minutes were vociferously and determinedly anti-angst, though. At least by my understanding of angst.


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## Bedrockgames (Aug 31, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Ah, got it. He asked Clara at one point if he was a good man? Sure, I guess that could be angsty. The other 44 of the 45 minutes were vociferously and determinedly anti-angst, though. At least by my understanding of angst.




Yeah, I wouldn't use the word angsty. This is definitely a darker doctor but not angsty that I an see. I think some of the earlier doctors would have been much more conflicted what happened with those two soldiers in the Dalek (he didn't seem particularly troubled). I would have expected a little more angst from Smith or tenant in those instances.


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## delericho (Aug 31, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Missy takes another recently-deceased character who died in the Doctor's presence. Theme starting to appear there.




Was it my imagination, or was the effect when the TARDIS picked up Journey Blue the same as when Gretchen was pulled into 'heaven'?


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## delericho (Aug 31, 2014)

Okay, here's a somewhat out-there theory for the identity of Missy: Susan.

At the moment, the show has something of an old-school vibe going: the Doctor's an older man again, and he's accompanied by a teacher from the Coal Hill School. If Mr Pink joins the team, then it'll be two teachers from that school. In which case, that's pretty much a mirror of the original crew of the TARDIS, with one exception: the Doctor's grand-daughter.

A much more tenuous link... the first Doctor Who story was "An Unearthly Child" and the second introduced the Daleks. Here, the second episode features Daleks, and Michelle Gomez, both here and as Sue White in Green Wing, has a distinctly unearthly manner about her. (Hey, I said it was tenuous!)

About the girlfriend/boyfriend reference: the show definitely has elements of flawed memory about it at the moment - the Doctor has missing/affected memories, the Dalek had such memories. So, if Susan is likewise suffering from memory problems, she could remember they had "a relationship" but not necessarily remember what it was.

But how could she become an antagonist? Well, way back when, the Doctor left her behind and promised that one day he would come back. Obviously, he hasn't, and since then all hell has broken loose with the Time War and other such things. Perhaps she waited several lifetimes, buried David and their children, and eventually decided to go looking.

I still think she's probably the Rani, though.


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## Morrus (Aug 31, 2014)

delericho said:


> About the girlfriend/boyfriend reference: the show definitely has elements of flawed memory about it at the moment - the Doctor has missing/affected memories, the Dalek had such memories. So, if Susan is likewise suffering from memory problems, she could remember they had "a relationship" but not necessarily remember what it was.




Even if memory was an issue, I think someone referring to their grandfather as their boyfriend is pretty creepy.  I can't see that happening on Doctor Who.


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## delericho (Aug 31, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Even if memory was an issue, I think someone referring to their grandfather as their boyfriend is pretty creepy.  I can't see that happening on Doctor Who.




Yeah, you're right. There goes that then.


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## Morrus (Aug 31, 2014)

I did notice he refers to the TARDIS as "the time capsule". That's what Hartnell used to call it. And his attitude is *very* early Hartnell. I don't think Hartnell linkage is totally off-base.


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## MarkB (Aug 31, 2014)

It's interesting that Missy isn't specifically collecting the Doctor's opponents - she's collecting those who die around him. However, she didn't seem to have collected the first soldier who was killed by the Dalek's eyebots.

If it weren't for that pesky "Did he fall / was he pushed?" question regarding last week's antagonist, we could almost see a theme here of Missy collecting people the Doctor persuades to sacrifice their lives.


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## Viking Bastard (Aug 31, 2014)

Or the "Doctor's victims".


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## Morrus (Aug 31, 2014)

MarkB said:


> It's interesting that Missy isn't specifically collecting the Doctor's opponents - she's collecting those who die around him. However, she didn't seem to have collected the first soldier who was killed by the Dalek's eyebots.
> 
> If it weren't for that pesky "Did he fall / was he pushed?" question regarding last week's antagonist, we could almost see a theme here of Missy collecting people the Doctor persuades to sacrifice their lives.




I think it looks like the latter. Which means he jumped. We'll know for sure next week - if somebody sacrificed themself and gets collected by Missy, we'll have our answer!


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## RC Hagy (Aug 31, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I did notice he refers to the TARDIS as "the time capsule". That's what Hartnell used to call it. And his attitude is *very* early Hartnell. I don't think Hartnell linkage is totally off-base.




Very Hartnell. Very... matter of fact. Almost to the point of being dismissive. Capaldi's so far does not seem to feel the need to show off. Quite perfunctory in his speech.
For all intents and purposes the TARDIS _is_​ a time-capsule. Why go further into it?
Something I noticed/read into... First nano-soldier - Got himself in trouble, here swallow this (stop whining you did it to yourself) and kept working.
Soldier he rescued - Nope, you cannot come along, you are just a soldier. 
The Dalek - Could not overcome its base program. Transferred its target, yet, still the usual Dalek. Here the Doctor is disappointed just as much with himself (to me that is) as well as the Dalek for choosing the hate instead of beauty.
Clara - Well... she has apparently proven herself. Gruff with her yes. Seemingly more patient though also.

Now... Gretchen. Soldier (nano). 'Do something good and name it after me'. She puts her faith in the Doctor. Not her role or her training - in him. She gets snatched by Missy.

Which made me think of the clockwork... What if in its own way it put its faith in the Doctor also. In so far as it could overcome its programing, just the tiniest bit, just enough for the Doctor, even though he said he did not believe himself, to help the clockwork along to the 'promised land'.

To sum up, _*if*_ there is a connection with the Doctor believing you have overcome your programing, training or nature... and these are the ones Missy targets. Then this could become an interesting season. Especially with Mr. Pink.

RCH


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## RC Hagy (Aug 31, 2014)

''Morrus - if somebody sacrificed themself and gets collected by Missy, we'll have our answer!''


Blast you Morrus! Two sentences for what took me a half hour to drag out of my brain and make somewhat coherent!


RCH

Edit: Though I do believe a little more than sacrifice is required. If there is a 'trust/faith' component involved we might even see Clara visit Missy at some point. For there are very few who have as much trust and are willing to sacrifice for the Doctor than a companion.


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## Tonguez (Sep 2, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I did notice he refers to the TARDIS as "the time capsule". That's what Hartnell used to call it. And his attitude is *very* early Hartnell. I don't think Hartnell linkage is totally off-base.




With all the stuff about the Doctors age, his 'real face' and him wearing his 'young' face like a veil I got the feeling that they were pushing at a timey-wimey reboot to Hartnells doctor. 

I want Missy to be the Tardis, but we will see...


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 3, 2014)

Morrus said:


> She was responsible for killing the 6th Doctor (Colin Baker), making him regenerate into the 7th (Sylvester McCoy).




So, not all bad then


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 3, 2014)

I never like the 'regeneration' episodes much. 

I was disappointed that they didn't keep the DW as police box logo, because I thought that was clever and neat.

I was disappointed that they decided to inflate the tyrannosaurus hugely - since the largest specimen was 13ft high at the hips and Big Ben is 315ft high... it offends the paleontologist in me.

I wondered what the point of having the victorian agents do a dramatic entrance to fight against the clockwork robots only to be hugely ineffectual - especially since the robots seemed to have the common dr who vulnerability to being escapable by the simple 'walk briskly' approach.

Still, I think there is hope for Capaldi, and I look forward to seeing where he takes the character.


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## Tonguez (Sep 3, 2014)

Plane Sailing said:


> I never like the 'regeneration' episodes much.
> 
> I was disappointed that they didn't keep the DW as police box logo, because I thought that was clever and neat.
> 
> ...




Yes well walk briskly is a proper English way of solving things, so it seems entirely appropriate for Doctor Who. Which is somewhat ironic as they made a point of calling out Capaldis Scottish accent, along with eall the other meta-references they were loading in. I wonder if the dinosaur was suppose to be a metaphor for something too, although I'm not sure what.

I think the story was weak because the writers were loading in too many injokes and vague references or foreshadowings rather than writing a rollicking yarn. The robots could have been much better. The clockwork droids of Girl in the Fireplace were well executed, these reboots seemed a little off. The Paternoster Gang for all its potential did seem a little superfluous, although Jenny was a bit of alright posing in her all togethers


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