# BattleStar Galactica S2/E7 08.26.05



## dravot (Aug 27, 2005)

BattleStar Galactica.

Stuff happened.  I haven't seen it yet - gaming tonight.

Discuss.  I'll catch up in the morning.


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## Sir Brennen (Aug 27, 2005)

Ack!  My prediction about Boomer from last week's thread was spot on. But then, I don't know how else they could have handled it, since she is a PC     It was done well, though.  

I have no other predictions about how things are going to progress beyond this point (other than Helo and Chief coming into conflict over C-Boomer.  But I made that prediction last week, too.  )  Hopefully BSG will get back to surprising me.

Best Funny line: 
"I thought we were already in the tomb of Athena."
                       "I think that was just the lobby."

Best Creepy line: 
"You ask why?"


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## John Crichton (Aug 27, 2005)

An episode that I sorely wanted to happen.  All the strife, murder and problems had to lead to something and this was it.  All the key characters finally seemed to "get it."  As others have said and I've thought all along, Adema and Roslin are the heart and soul of the show, respectively.  Him throwing his considerable weight behind her is both uplifting and tragic at the same time (she *is* dying).

The Sharon "choice" moment was telegraphed but done well as set up in the first season.  To have it done any other way was to waste many episodes of build up and conflict.  The thing that entertains me the most is that many of the events are telegraphed but the payoffs and sometimes twists are what make the show special. Joss Whedon's shows have always been about a built (read: non-blood related) family.  Moore did the same thing on DS9 and he's doing it here again.  They fight, they make up and it works for me.

While I see this ep and the last and transitory to the overall plot, it's fun to see what is being put together.  The mythology is being fleshed out and the cylons are being made to be more mysterious and perhaps a bit more twisted than they already are - a perfect mirror to humanity, really.

Two weeks until we get some more... *sigh*


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## Safana Cain (Aug 27, 2005)

The thing with Baltar killed me.  The way he looked at the doctor and said, "I'm not crazy!"  I wish they had had more of those scenes.  And I like how it remains unresolved!


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## wilrich (Aug 27, 2005)

[QUOTE
Two weeks until we get some more... *sigh*[/QUOTE]

What!?!?  My TiVo cut off the scences from the next episode, so this is news to me!  Say it isn't so!


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## Sir Brennen (Aug 27, 2005)

Yeah... most holiday weekends SciFi channel has a movie marathon or something.  On Friday, they're showing fan-picked favorite episodes of Stargate, like, six in a row.


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## John Crichton (Aug 27, 2005)

wilrich said:
			
		

> What!?!?  My TiVo cut off the scences from the next episode, so this is news to me!  Say it isn't so!



Tis so.  The preview for the next ep shows something about a reporter on Galatica.


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## Sir Brennen (Aug 27, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Tis so.  The preview for the next ep shows something about a reporter on Galatica.



A blonde Lucy Lawless flaunting her natural Australian accent, no less


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## Wolf72 (Aug 28, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Tis so.  The preview for the next ep shows something about a reporter on Galatica.




I wonder how this episode will stand up against the BAB5 version


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## fett527 (Aug 28, 2005)

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> I wonder how this episode will stand up against the BAB5 version




First thing I thought of.  Looks to be a little more intense, but most of BSG is.

Definitely enjoyed the episode.  I didn't expect Adama to go off like that, but it was VERY cool!  

I enjoyed the Helo-chief-CBoomer triangle beginning.  As was said, it was to be expected and can't wait for more.

The other thing I enjoyed was the more laid back Starbuck.  she wasn't the focus and there was no real intense scene with her and it was nice to see that.  It was nice to see Katie Sackhoff do some more subdued acting.  I really liked her expression when facing Adama again.


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## John Crichton (Aug 28, 2005)

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> I wonder how this episode will stand up against the BAB5 version



I imagine it'll be a bit different in tone but still have a few similarities.  The B5 ep all about very clear propaganda, manipulation and pandering.  The BSG version will probably be a bit more grey.  Either way, it's bound to be an interesting "outsider" look at the show's goings on.


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## John Crichton (Aug 28, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> The other thing I enjoyed was the more laid back Starbuck.  she wasn't the focus and there was no real intense scene with her and it was nice to see that.  It was nice to see Katie Sackhoff do some more subdued acting.  I really liked her expression when facing Adama again.



As much as I enjoy Starbuck's usual antics and brashness, it was cool to see her in a more reactionary role than a proactive role.  She also seemed *tired*, meaning that the character's recent ordeals have taken a heavy toll and she needs to recharge.  Both Adama's got to take the proactive role this time around so Starbuck wasn't needed.  The Old Man took a step back and went with the rational approach.  Apollo simply kept aiming for the target and got there.

Good character mix if you ask me.  We've got the extended family going on with the Adama's, Starbuck, Roslin and Baltar (as the crazy uncle/brother/cousin).  With that core of characters the show can sustain itself for some time.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 28, 2005)

Title of this thread indicates that Friday's show was episode 6, but it was actually episode 7, fyi.


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## Wolf72 (Aug 28, 2005)

I wonder if this is where the series gets to take a leap from the cylons (they'll always be there), ... they have a destination in mind now.  I'd like to see what continues to happen on the colonies too (and not just caprica).


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Aug 28, 2005)

It was suggested by someone that the Old Man was potentially the dying leader in the scriptures.  I don't remember who said it or which thread it was... but I felt like this last episode sort of played into that notion.  Don't think that I believe that he is the leader in the scriptures, but it's definately an interesting possibility.  *shrug*


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## Lord Pendragon (Aug 28, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> It was suggested by someone that the Old Man was potentially the dying leader in the scriptures.  I don't remember who said it or which thread it was... but I felt like this last episode sort of played into that notion.  Don't think that I believe that he is the leader in the scriptures, but it's definately an interesting possibility.  *shrug*



I wouldn't be surprised to learn later, perhaps much later, that Adama is hiding a terminal illness, either acquired through his recent ordeal or something else.  Adama strikes me as the kind of man who wouldn't want others making a big deal over it, and also someone who wouldn't give a second thought to the possibility that he was some kind of prophecied savior in scripture.  But if this becomes true, and Roslin learns of it, I'd be interested to see _her_ reaction, since it could plant a seed of real doubt in her mind as to whether he or she is the chosen one.


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## sensate (Aug 29, 2005)

The chosen one is supposed to be a woman.


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## John Crichton (Aug 29, 2005)

sensate said:
			
		

> The chosen one is supposed to be a woman.



 Perhaps you're thinking of Buffy.  

I don't believe anywhere in the prophecy is there a gender specificied.  But if there is something I'm missing please quote it or link it or something.  Could have sworn that it was just "a leader with a wasting ailment" or somesuch...


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## Wolf72 (Aug 29, 2005)

*wolf shivers over the thought of SMG in BSG* ...


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 29, 2005)

Perhaps Adama's hiding his terminal illness...and the fact that he's a woman.    

It _ would _ explain him being all tough and deposing the President one minute, then turning around, getting all mushy and calling the fleet his family the next.  

On a more serious note: Baltar cannot just be crazy.  If he is, he's also prophetic.  He has known things that he could not have possibly known if a little cylon didn't whisper it in his ear.  I did enjoy watching Six mess with him, though.

And I love the ship's doctor.  He is turning into one of my favorite side characters.


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## WizarDru (Aug 29, 2005)

Baltar may be a cylon, I'm beginning to think.  It would explain a lot.

Adama may be dying: remember, Cottle said they wouldn't be able to tell if he'd had brain damage or not for some time.  Remember that scary pause when he gave his first speech after recovery?  Depending on how you interpert it, Adama may be suffering from some serious problems that haven't surfaced, yet.

And yes, Doc Cottle is awesome.  He's virtually untouchable and he knows it...though I suspect he was ALWAYS like he is now.  

Roslin hit on the head with Adama, though...he's angry about the perceived betrayl from her going back on her word than from the actual infraction.  And don't rule out a near-death experience to change a man's outlook, some.  Or a lot.  I've seen it in real-life, so seeing it in Adama Sr. makes perfect sense to me.


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## ecliptic (Aug 29, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> It was suggested by someone that the Old Man was potentially the dying leader in the scriptures.  I don't remember who said it or which thread it was... but I felt like this last episode sort of played into that notion.  Don't think that I believe that he is the leader in the scriptures, but it's definately an interesting possibility.  *shrug*




*raises hand*


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## mrtauntaun (Aug 29, 2005)

Next week looks very interesting.  Lucy Lawless's character looks coniving, manipulative and intent on sowing discord amongst the fleet.  Sound like just the kind of thing a CYLON would do.........
I hope she isn't, it would be neat to have her as a recurring character (not a regular, just an occasional), but I don't like what I saw there.  And two weeks to wait to boot!


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 29, 2005)

I thought this episode was ok, but the whole thing had a "feel good" type vibe going IMO. 

I get the feeling that Sharon is BSG's 7 of 9...something I was desperately hoping they would avoid.  If she turns into the friendly Cylon helper who was saved by the crew from her nature I'm going puke and hope I can overcome my distate for that to enjoy the rest of the show...but that will be hard.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 29, 2005)

I don't think that's going to happen. I think she maintains 100% of her Cylon motivations. That they happen to line up with human plans right now makes her seem cooperative, but in reality, she's getting everything she wants, and she wants what the Cylons want.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 29, 2005)

I sure hope so.  The entire show will be ruined for me if they do something foolish like I was talking about.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 29, 2005)

Her turning against the Cylons doesn't automatically make it a 7 of 9 situation. Honestly, I wouldn't be SURPRISED if she's now on the humans' side. From the things the Cylons were talking about on Caprica about her falling in love to everything we've seen, this Boomer really does look like she's more stable and actually in control as compared to the other one.

Of course, its equally possible that she's just sticking around to have the baby on Galactica where Baltar is before a change of plans comes up.


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## maggot (Aug 29, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> On a more serious note: Baltar cannot just be crazy.  If he is, he's also prophetic.  He has known things that he could not have possibly known if a little cylon didn't whisper it in his ear.




I still think he could be crazy.  Sure he thinks the cylon is whispering things to him, but he never acts on these things, only reacts.  So maybe he hears about the baby coming and then thinks he remembers the cylon telling him it was coming.

The other things he hears could be his intelligence or experience coming through and shrouded in insanity.  The only one I cannot explain is when he picked out the right target at the cylon base, but the cylon chick never told him where to point, so I'm at a loss for either explanation on that one.


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## Jakar (Aug 29, 2005)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> A blonde Lucy Lawless flaunting her natural Australian accent, no less



She has a pretty good Aussie accent for being a New Zealander.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 30, 2005)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> Best Creepy line:
> "You ask why?"




Yeah...  Didn't he ask that when Galactica-Boomer was already dead?


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Aug 30, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Yeah...  Didn't he ask that when Galactica-Boomer was already dead?




When he was standing over the corpse in the morgue.  Either a bad continuity error, or a bad omen for the colonists....


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## Safana Cain (Aug 30, 2005)

See, that's why it's creepy, and why the "surprise" chords played and everything.  It means she hears things even when she's dead.

I kinda get sick of the way the Cylons demand respect and rights after committing genocide.  "Oh gosh, you murdered most of my species and then shot me twice in the stomach?  You're right, I was overreacting when I said I wanted you to die."


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 30, 2005)

Safana Cain said:
			
		

> See, that's why it's creepy, and why the "surprise" chords played and everything.  It means she hears things even when she's dead.
> 
> I kinda get sick of the way the Cylons demand respect and rights after committing genocide.  "Oh gosh, you murdered most of my species and then shot me twice in the stomach?  You're right, I was overreacting when I said I wanted you to die."



Though we all now the only reason for Adama choking Boomer was the latter part - he didn´t choke Leoben when they captured him... This was personal. 


I don´t think Galactica Boomer will ever become a 7 of 9 clone - the Galactica crew will never trust her the way the Voyager crew (and especially Janeway) trusted 7 of 9.


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## Jarrod (Aug 30, 2005)

I think Sharon is exactly where she wants to be, and that is near Helo. I don't think we should expect all of the Cylons to have the same agenda, and Sharon-C is definitely one with her own. She might even be trying to get the humans and Cylons back together; "if only they understood" and so on. 

They've talked about the 12 models having a particular personality imprint. I think Sharon is "the mother" - protective of "her man" and her child-to-be. The best place for Helo was off Caprica, and so they went. I have the feeling she stole the Raider because otherwise she would have been left behind by Starbuck. Using the troop ship meant that she came along - after all, she's the pilot and the person who stole it. Then she helped on Kobol because it meant she a) wasn't killed and b) came along. She forced the issue with "Mr. Evil Second" to keep Adama from killing her. 

Poor Chief. Does she remember everything, or not? She was kinda vague


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## Rykion (Aug 30, 2005)

The whole Baltar/Six baby plot line going on indicates that Sharon is not deviating from Cylon plans.  They knew she would escape and go back to the fleet.  It was probably planned by the Cylons all along.  This Sharon might not realize it anymore than the one that had been on Galactica, but she is still operating as intended.

I also found it hard to believe that Helo is so love blind that he feels the killing of the Galactica Sharon unwarranted.  She was part of a military that killed millions or billions of people.  She walked up and put two rounds in Adama.  The only suprise is that her killer got anytime in the brig at all.  If Helo can't see that the only "crime" was that they were unable to get information out of the Galactica Sharon before she died, he is too dangerous to be allowed military duty.


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## Belen (Aug 30, 2005)

I think that Sharon does remember everything, including what Adama said to her in the morgue.  She made the comment "you asked me why?"

I think it is telling that the 12 colonies used to fly flags that were the constellations as they appeared on Earth and that they originally carried the Earth names for the constellations.  It gives credence to the theory that Kobol was colonized by Earth.


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## mmu1 (Aug 30, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> I also found it hard to believe that Helo is so love blind that he feels the killing of the Galactica Sharon unwarranted.  She was part of a military that killed millions or billions of people.  She walked up and put two rounds in Adama.  The only suprise is that her killer got anytime in the brig at all.  If Helo can't see that the only "crime" was that they were unable to get information out of the Galactica Sharon before she died, he is too dangerous to be allowed military duty.




I find that to be perfectly reasonable. Halo - unlike most other people - can no longer help but think of Sharon as a person, and people - even members of genocidal militaries, or those guilty of attempted murder - are not executed without a trial... Especially in a place as absurdly touchy-feely (given the desperate situation) as the remnants of the colonial fleet have been.

Everyone else - Roslyn, Adama, Apollo - have so far been completely iraational in pretending the Cylons are "just machines", when the fact that (at least some of them) are living, thinking, feeling creatures is staring them in the face and the only reason for arguing they're not is metaphysical/religious.

I wouldn't look down on them for deciding to execute Cylons anyway for what they've done to the colonies, but the arguments they've been using to justify shoving them out of airlocks or torturing them have been a bunch of hypocritical crap.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 30, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I think that Sharon does remember everything, including what Adama said to her in the morgue.  She made the comment "you asked me why?"



I'm pretty sure the quote was "And you ask why," which has the important difference of not having the word "me" in it, and being in the present tense. This leaves it much more vague, as it's reasonable for the Cylons to assume that Adama is asking "why" about a lot of things. Even though it's pretty clear she's referring to the morgue scene, it's left much more vague.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 30, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Everyone else - Roslyn, Adama, Apollo - have so far been completely iraational in pretending the Cylons are "just machines", when the fact that (at least some of them) are living, thinking, feeling creatures is staring them in the face and the only reason for arguing they're not is metaphysical/religious.
> 
> I wouldn't look down on them for deciding to execute Cylons anyway for what they've done to the colonies, but the arguments they've been using to justify shoving them out of airlocks or torturing them have been a bunch of hypocritical crap.




But are they still going according to programming or are they actual thinking machines?  Is it possible thier programming is so advanced that they are indistinguishable from people unless you give them some kind of Voight-Kampff test?  In any event that is one thing I like about the President, she knows how to handle Cylons...you fire them out the airlock. It's not like you are killing an individual you are only deactivating one of the vessels of some kind of group machine consciousness.  And the time for worring about the "rights" or whatever of a bio-machine synthezoid creature died in the nuclear attack on the colonies.  I'm sure once they get off the constant edge of extinction they will have more ability to consider the morality of spacing Cylons. 

P.S. Helo is an idiot and I'm at the point where I hope he discovers how totally he's been played along and manipulated before he is killed.


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## wingsandsword (Aug 30, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I think it is telling that the 12 colonies used to fly flags that were the constellations as they appeared on Earth and that they originally carried the Earth names for the constellations.  It gives credence to the theory that Kobol was colonized by Earth.



I've suspected for some time that, that Earth is the original homeworld, they left for Kobol, then left Kobol for the 12 colonies (and maybe a return to Earth as well).  The idea that the flags of the 12 colonies were based on constellations visible from Earth as well as using the unaltered Earth names.  The colonies themselves only being 3,000 years since the evacuation of Kobol was a clue (humans from Kobol to Earth would have arrived well into recorded history, instead of founding human history), and that RDM has acknowledged that while trying to be true to modern science with New BSG, our evidence shows that humans evolved on Earth.

The idea that BSG could somehow be a far-future of us is intriguing I think.  That the colonial "gods" were human leaders who were named after (or took the names of) the Greek gods (instead of the assumption in original BSG that space travellers of those names inspired the Greek/Egyptian/ect gods).  Not wanting to go too far afield into religion, that puts the Cylons monotheism into a different light, especially since C-Boomer did just they say they know human religion better than the humans do.  (One true god, Be fruitful, not worship false idols, they don't say it by name but the Cylon beliefs appear to be vaguely rooted in the Abrahamic tradition certainly)

It's always seemed to me that the Cylons want the prophecy to come true.  It wouldn't have begun if they didn't bomb the colonies, they could have an entire fleet waiting at Kobol to ensure they couldn't reach the Tomb but they didn't.  They're chasing the colonists, herding them, they want to reach Earth too.  The idea in original BSG was that they wanted to wipe out Earth to kill all remaining humans, but I think these Cylons are just looking for humans who share their beliefs, and trying in some long-term fashion to put an end to their polytheistic beliefs and convert them.

Oh, and as a side note, with this episode and Baltar's brain-scan, since Cylons have communications technology that apparently eludes normal Colonial technology (like how the humanoid Cylons download their minds at death), a "chip" in Baltars brain could easily be undetectable by anything Dr. Cottle has to search with if those scans can't tell the difference between a Humanoid Cylon and a Human.


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## Rykion (Aug 30, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> I find that to be perfectly reasonable. Halo - unlike most other people - can no longer help but think of Sharon as a person, and people - even members of genocidal militaries, or those guilty of attempted murder - are not executed without a trial... Especially in a place as absurdly touchy-feely (given the desperate situation) as the remnants of the colonial fleet have been.




In fact, enemy spies found wearing a friendly country's uniform during times of war are often executed immediately after interrogation.  The fact that the Cylons in the fleet are actively sabotaging equipment and feeding information to the other Cylons just reinforces the fact the Colonials must try to quickly eliminate them.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 30, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> The idea in original BSG was that they wanted to wipe out Earth to kill all remaining humans, but I think these Cylons are just looking for humans who share their beliefs, and trying in some long-term fashion to put an end to their polytheistic beliefs and convert them.




Up until this episode, I pretty much agreed with that. Six specifically said to Baltar that she is to stay with him to the END of the Human race. Of course, this still hinges on whether or not Baltar's just imagining things, but if he isn't, I don't think the Cylons want anything but to kill the remaining Humans they believe are on Earth.


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## ThirdWizard (Aug 30, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I think it is telling that the 12 colonies used to fly flags that were the constellations as they appeared on Earth and that they originally carried the Earth names for the constellations.  It gives credence to the theory that Kobol was colonized by Earth.




It happened before and it will happen again.

Earth might be the origional birthplace of man, from which they first went out, then returned later. It might have been colonized many times and destroyed just as many times, the number and history lost to the eons. Maybe humans arn't really humans themselves. Humans create cylons. Cylons are led to Earth by mankind. Cylons kill man and take their place as the new humans. The new "humans" colonize the 12 colonies. "Humans" create cylons. And on and on. Not likely, but I like it.


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## wingsandsword (Aug 30, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Up until this episode, I pretty much agreed with that. Six specifically said to Baltar that she is to stay with him to the END of the Human race. Of course, this still hinges on whether or not Baltar's just imagining things, but if he isn't, I don't think the Cylons want anything but to kill the remaining Humans they believe are on Earth.



She also said that he was crazy and she didn't exist, and later that she was an Angel.  Six is manipulating Baltar something serious, and a comment like being with him until the end of the human race is hard for me to take literally realizing that.  It's like saying you'd be with him for the rest of his life, or until the end of the world.  Everything Six says needs to be considered a possible lie, she's telling Baltar what he wants to hear.

I still think she's some kind of chip in his head (like a link to the "Number 6" collective mind), if normal Colonial technology can't tell the difference between a humanoid-cylon who can download their memories to their others when they die and a normal human, some kind of cylon implant could easily be undetectable to Colonial technology.


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## Belen (Aug 30, 2005)

Cylons use organic technology.  They could easily have slipped an organic chip or added additional memory RNA into his brain.

However, we may be going too far here as well.  Nothing says that Baltar is sane.  The man is a genius.  His subconscious could easily have split into an alternate personality.  He is smart enough to guess a lot of the Cylon plans.

Then again, the Cylons may also have some sort of psionic powers.  I am still disturbed by the episode where the Cylon "hacked" a closed network.  Those computers were wired together.  They were not set up on a wireless network.  The Cylons should not have been able to hack into a network to which they do not belong.  They somehow "beamed" into a closed network.

Maybe they can "beam" into wetware too.


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## mmu1 (Aug 30, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> In fact, enemy spies found wearing a friendly country's uniform during times of war are often executed immediately after interrogation.  The fact that the Cylons in the fleet are actively sabotaging equipment and feeding information to the other Cylons just reinforces the fact the Colonials must try to quickly eliminate them.




1. I think we've had enough real-world examples lately of the fact that the whole "illegal combatant" issue actually tends to be a little more complex than the way shooting spies is generally portrayed in old war movies or James Bond films.

2. More importantly, this has nothing to do with the reasons the BSG characters give for treating Cylons as they do - it's all been about "get this _thing_ off of my ship", and "I can't believe you were frackin' a toaster".  

Like I said, I don't hold executing Cylons against them - only pretending that they're destroying machines rather than killing sentient beings, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary... I'm actually starting to like Zarek better now because of that - he at least is consistent, moron of an anarchist (with a martyr complex) though he might be.

And I absolutely despise Roslyn for flipping between "Oh, no! Think of the democracy! If we declare martial law, the Cylons have already won!" and "This thing is clearly too dangerous to be allowed to exist!  Guards, off with his head!" Queen frackin' Roslyn...


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## Rykion (Aug 30, 2005)

I do agree that killing Cylons because they are just "toasters" is short sighted.  They logically should be disposed of because they can continue to spy and give away the fleet's location even while captured.  They should know that the Cylons they are terminating may be sentient.

I won't get into James Bond or modern "illegal combatants," but militaries go out of their way to insure no spy chooses to wear their uniform lightly, especially in times of war.  This is usually done by executing them soon after capture and letting their enemy know it was done.  It is not just something in war movies.


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## Belen (Aug 30, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> And I absolutely despise Roslyn for flipping between "Oh, no! Think of the democracy! If we declare martial law, the Cylons have already won!" and "This thing is clearly too dangerous to be allowed to exist!  Guards, off with his head!" Queen frackin' Roslyn...




People often dehumanize their enemies.  It helps them cope with what they have to do in wartime.  Seeing Cylons as toasters helps.

Considering that the Cylons brutally murdered billions of people.  I feel no sense of loss if they are treated as less than human.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 30, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I think that Sharon does remember everything, including what Adama said to her in the morgue.  She made the comment "you asked me why?"
> 
> I think it is telling that the 12 colonies used to fly flags that were the constellations as they appeared on Earth and that they originally carried the Earth names for the constellations.  It gives credence to the theory that Kobol was colonized by Earth.



Or we actually see/hear only a translated version of what the Colonials really say - since it seems unlikely that they speak a completely unaltered english if they are descendants from Earth. 



> But are they still going according to programming or are they actual thinking machines? Is it possible thier programming is so advanced that they are indistinguishable from people unless you give them some kind of Voight-Kampff test?



When does a copy become a original? If it is impossible to detect the difference between two things, aren´t they the same? Clearly, Cylons are different (glowing spine, conciousness download, high strength and speed) on a superficial level. But that aside, do we know their mind is so different from ours? Maybe cylons could install a boomer-sleeper program not only in Cylons, but also in humans. Where do we have to lock to find the differences in mental capacities? 
Personally, I believe Cylons are no longer thinking machines - maybe even the Centurions weren´t - they are sentient, and as long as humanity isn´t willing to see that, the Cylons have a valid (even if not morally right) reason to hate and destroy them.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 30, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> 1. I think we've had enough real-world examples lately of the fact that the whole "illegal combatant" issue actually tends to be a little more complex than the way shooting spies is generally portrayed in old war movies or James Bond films.
> 
> 2. More importantly, this has nothing to do with the reasons the BSG characters give for treating Cylons as they do - it's all been about "get this _thing_ off of my ship", and "I can't believe you were frackin' a toaster".
> 
> ...




The main thing I've had a problem with was Roslyn's insistance that everything should go on like their culture and species wasn't on the brink of extinction every second of every day for the most part, then flipping over to the opposite end like you said.  For example she should have tight control over the remaining media and anything that could represent a possible threat to the unity and survival of the fleet.  She should have declared martial law IMO.  Because its necessary.  Anyone who isn't working towards the goal of safeguarding the fleet and by extension humanity is a threat to that very survival.  So for example I'd have spaced Zarek as well due to his actions, or imprisoned him again at the very least.  Endangering the fleet would be a capital crime so would be being a toaster.  I doubt most people would have a problem with that if they thought such actions would keep them safe from a concrete threat of death coming at any second. 

Martial Law isn't cylon victory, cylon victory is the destruction of the Galactica and the fleet, leaving only the small groups of survivors on the nuked planets to slowly die of attrition and rad poisoning and thus ending humanity. 

What proves that the Cylons are sentient beings, in an individual sense.  Aren't they more of a group entity in terms of the human models?  Did "Sharon" die when shot by the deck crew woman?  No, one of her many vessels stopped functioning, but that consciousness lives on in the vast number of other identical synthetic bodies.  At least that is the way I see it.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 30, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Personally, I believe Cylons are no longer thinking machines - maybe even the Centurions weren´t - they are sentient, and as long as humanity isn´t willing to see that, the Cylons have a valid (even if not morally right) reason to hate and destroy them.




And the humans are trying to destroy them...well they are not they are trying to flee them since they are waging a war of genocide against humanity.  So the Humans didn't think the Cylons were sentient but they were sending regular ambassadors to that meeting station in the miniseries to try and talk to the cylons and make a peace.  The Cylons, sentient or not, blow that up and launch a suprise nuclear holocaust...yeah the Cylons have reason to hate humanity.  :\


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## WizarDru (Aug 30, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Anyone who isn't working towards the goal of safeguarding the fleet and by extension humanity is a threat to that very survival.  So for example I'd have spaced Zarek as well due to his actions, or imprisoned him again at the very least.  Endangering the fleet would be a capital crime so would be being a toaster.  I doubt most people would have a problem with that if they thought such actions would keep them safe from a concrete threat of death coming at any second.




Except that it's not that simple, IMHO.  Zarek has a LOT of loyal followers, many of whom believe they owe him their liberty and what priveleges they enjoy.  Kill him and you've got dissension in the fleet.  Who mines your water and does your base menial labor then?  We just saw one follower so dedicated he was willing to attempt to assinate the president's top aide and one of the highest ranking officers in the fleet (and join in a plot to assinate it's most senior officer).

At the same time, you have thousands of civilians who are need to be reassured that they have some sort of future.  Adama knew that when he told the big lie and Roslin knows it, too.  Turn the fleet into an armed prison camp where ANYONE can be a cylon...and within hours, there will be lots of dead people who 'might have been' a cylon.  The fleet will rapidly divide and self-destruct.  I'm not sure why you're suprised at Roslin's actions, either.  She's been fairly consistent with the cylon agents.  She considers them like an asp clutched to the chest: they lie, they tempt and if you hold them too long, they'll bite.  As far as she's concerned, it's in their nature and if you keep them around, you're inviting the consequences.  Don't mistake Roslin's egalitarian views with pure touchy-feely sentimentality...they're not the same thing.  The last time she listened to a cylon, she suspected Adama of being a cylon.  The last time Adama talked to a cylon face-to-face, he got a chestful of lead.  I'm fairly sure that when push comes to shove, she's more than ready to toss Boomer-C out an airlock, and Helo too, if necessary.  Frankly, he's damaged goods.

IMHO,  a big part of the message of this episode was: "we have to be more flexible if we're going to survive."  Adama didn't say, 'it's all right to do what you did'; he said 'I understand why you did what you did, and while I'm not happy, I'm not angry any more and we have important things to do'.

Poor Kara...I think she honestly thought they were going to stage a rescue operation.  Or maybe she just really, really hoped it was so.  Wonder what, if anything, will happen with those quixotic folks.  I'll kind of miss the Caprica interludes, now that they're over.


----------



## mmu1 (Aug 30, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Don't mistake Roslin's egalitarian views with pure touchy-feely sentimentality...they're not the same thing.  The last time she listened to a cylon, she suspected Adama of being a cylon.  The last time Adama talked to a cylon face-to-face, he got a chestful of lead.  I'm fairly sure that when push comes to shove, she's more than ready to toss Boomer-C out an airlock, and Helo too, if necessary.  Frankly, he's damaged goods.




What right does she have to order Helo thrown out of the airlock? (And, damaged goods? This is the guy who volunteered to stay behind on Caprica to make room for someone he felt the fleet would need more, and unlike most of the main characters, has yet to lie, cheat, cover up, betray, scheme... He might be naive, or blinded by love or hormones, but he's got integrity.)

I agree she's probably capable of it, but it's just another example of what a waste of oxygen she is. On one hand, she'll to go to great lengths to preserve useless institutions like the Quorum of Twelve, or indulge in insanity like elections in the middle of a fight for survival, on the other, whenever she feels like it (or whenever voices in her head tell her to) she'll throw someone out into space, encourage soldiers to mutiny, split the fleet and take a large chunk of it - completely defenseless - to chase a rainbow without considering whether she's playing into the Cylons' hands in some way, or whether her drug addiction is affecting her judgement... 

I'm going to be really angry if the writers end up validating her insanity by making her the prophesied savior of mankind.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 30, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> This is the guy who volunteered to stay behind on Caprica to make room for someone he felt the fleet would need more, and unlike most of the main characters, has yet to lie, cheat, cover up, betray, scheme... He might be naive, or blinded by love or hormones, but he's got integrity.)




We, as omniscient viewers, know that.  How does the president?  How does Kara, for that matter?  Has anyone proven he's not a cylon plant?  To play devil's advocate: three times now, we've seen very convienent rescues on Caprica; Roslin knows she can't trust Boomer; she doesn't know Helo (and didn't Apollo and Starbuck both know her before they knew her to be a cylon...yes, they did, so there's no reason Helo couldn't be a cylon in that regard) and the only person she knows and potentially trusts, Kara, admits to having been held in cylon medical facility where she knows they operated on her and drugged her repeatedly.  Luckily, when she returns with a pet cylon in tow, she also brings Helo, a man who draws a gun on Apollo, the straightest arrow she knows, and the most trustworthy man in the fleet (in whose hands she has placed her life several times, now).  Yeah, Helo's got an iron-clad reputation, all right.  

The point is, he's chosen love over duty.  He is no longer trustworthy in the eyes of President and likely the fleet.  He has been compromised and is damaged goods.  That doesn't mean he lacks integrity or is a bad person...but he's also clearly divided; and one day the fleet may suffer for that division.  What will Helo do if he thinks Boomer is going to be killed?



			
				mmu1 said:
			
		

> On one hand, she'll to go to great lengths to preserve useless institutions like the Quorum of Twelve, or indulge in insanity like elections in the middle of a fight for survival, on the other, whenever she feels like it (or whenever voices in her head tell her to) she'll throw someone out into space, encourage soldiers to mutiny, split the fleet and take a large chunk of it - completely defenseless - to chase a rainbow without considering whether she's playing into the Cylons' hands in some way, or whether her drug addiction is affecting her judgement...
> 
> I'm going to be really angry if the writers end up validating her insanity by making her the prophesied savior of mankind.




Well, I don't think the writers will EVER state that.  I think they'll keep it quite ambigious.  Was it an act of god that saved Gaius' butt back in the first season?  Depends on your perspective, I suppose.  That's as close, I think, as you'll get to the prophecy being proven true or false.

As for the Quorom being useless, clearly neither she nor the Adamas accept that answer.  Senior may hate politics, but he recognizes their value.  And it's clear that Adama detests the idea of a military state as much or MORE than the president does.  As for mutiny...well, we had that argument a while ago, but if RDM is to be believed (and I think he ought to) then technically, the president was in the right and Adama violated the law (as the Colonial system is based on the US system, with the president being the commander in chief).  Is it an extremely bad idea of the president to do what she did?  I think so...but it wasn't illegal, and certainly not mutiny.

As for taking the fleet: we first have to assume that religion is invalid...something the characters aren't likely to do.  Even relatively unreligious characters like Apollo are clearly defensive when Boomer-C talks smack about it.  Was it a smart thing to do?  Not by a long shot.  However, in the long run, what exactly was mankind bound to do?  Live as gypsies for ever, until they run out of supplies?  Roslin KNEW that they had nowhere to go, and that Adama had told the Big Lie to keep the fleet moving and motivated.  She wanted to make the Big Lie into the Big Goal, instead.

That mankind has completely misunderstood and potentially vastly underestimated the cylons motivations and intelligence is another problem entirely.


----------



## MaxKaladin (Aug 31, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Personally, I believe Cylons are no longer thinking machines - maybe even the Centurions weren´t - they are sentient, and as long as humanity isn´t willing to see that, the Cylons have a valid (even if not morally right) reason to hate and destroy them.



Humanity didn't even know what the cylons had become before the attack on the colonies.  As far as humanity was concerned, the cylon war was over and  had been for decades.  Likewise, the cylons were gone and hadn't been heard from in just as long.  How was humanity to be willing to see that the new cylons were thinking machines when they had no idea they existed?  As far as humanity was concerned, the cylons disappeared into the unknown, were not seen or heard from for decades and suddenly reappeared to unleash nuclear genocide on them.  

I'm not finding the valid reason here.  As far as we've seen, humanity didn't look for the cylons in that time except for sending an ambassador to an isolated outpost once per year to see if the cylons showed up to maintain some sort of diplomatic relationship -- which they didn't until the surprise attack.  They certainly maintained a large military, but it appears to have been defensively oriented.  They don't appear to have been exploring much outside of the colonies.  How were the colonies deserving of destruction?  



			
				mmu1 said:
			
		

> I'm going to be really angry if the writers end up validating her insanity by making her the prophesied savior of mankind.



Ditto.


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 31, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> We, as omniscient viewers, know that.  How does the president?  How does Kara, for that matter?  Has anyone proven he's not a cylon plant?




The first thing I'd do when I got Helo and Starbuck back to the Galactica is run a Cylon test on them and keep them confined until they pass.  That'd only take, what, a week?



> Even relatively unreligious characters like Apollo are clearly defensive when Boomer-C talks smack about it.




"We know more about your religion than you do."

That's rude.  Then again, the Cylons have had years in which to pillag...I mean, do archaeological studies of Kobol, which could yield all sorts of things.

As an aside, Athena *committed suicide?*  Man, that's freaky.

Brad


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 31, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Then again, the Cylons may also have some sort of psionic powers.  I am still disturbed by the episode where the Cylon "hacked" a closed network.  Those computers were wired together.  They were not set up on a wireless network.  The Cylons should not have been able to hack into a network to which they do not belong.  They somehow "beamed" into a closed network.




Or, the Cylons in the fleet could have put backdoors and high-end tech into the systems on Galactica, without anyone knowing.  Given the relatively safe assumption that the Cylons are vastly superior to the Humans with regards to computers, it's entirely possible.  Hell, Gaeta could be a Cylon, and that's how they tapped in... right now it's a mystery or a convenient plot device.



			
				cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> The first thing I'd do when I got Helo and Starbuck back to the Galactica is run a Cylon test on them and keep them confined until they pass. That'd only take, what, a week?




Baltar is not trusted... certainly not by Tigh (he says as much), and probably not by much of anyone else... his Cyclon detector, as far as anyone knows, did not work.  Only we as viewers know it actually does.


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 31, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Poor Kara...I think she honestly thought they were going to stage a rescue operation.  Or maybe she just really, really hoped it was so.  Wonder what, if anything, will happen with those quixotic folks.  I'll kind of miss the Caprica interludes, now that they're over.




I don't think they are over.

The single BEST idea Ron Moore had for the series was keeping a number of different plotlines going on in places other than the Fleet.

If this show stays in the Fleet - it will die; if it becomes bump into alien species along the way (more than a few times) it will devolve into Trek - and die.

The link to the Colonies as a place where the story happens - as opposed to *happened* was a brilliant idea and I think Kara is going back - with or without Roslin and/or Adama's permission.  The show needs sets outside of the studio; it needs a story outside of the Fleet.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 31, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Baltar is not trusted... certainly not by Tigh (he says as much), and probably not by much of anyone else... his Cyclon detector, as far as anyone knows, did not work.  Only we as viewers know it actually does.




Use Boomer-C as a control group.

Honestly, they better get some details out of her.  Else, I'd start vivisecting.

Brad


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## ecliptic (Aug 31, 2005)

I think they should use Boomer as a lab rat.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 31, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> I think they should use Boomer as a lab rat.



 But if they do that, then how are they any different from the Cylons, themselves?


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## WizarDru (Aug 31, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> I think they should use Boomer as a lab rat.




I think they will...and how better to get Baltar closer to her?  The real question is...what will happen?  We're being given lots of talk about 'the baby'...who is only a few weeks old at this point.  If Roslin's disease proceeds apace, she'll be dead before the baby is born (unless the baby is even less normal than supposed, and is born sooner).  However, I rather suspected that  the whole baby arc would become much more prominent before then, so I'm not sure what will happen.

I don't think the show NEEDS shots outside of the fleet...but it definitely needs shots outside of Galactica.  I'll wait and see what develops.


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## WizarDru (Aug 31, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> But if they do that, then how are they any different from the Cylons, themselves?




Who says they are?  I think the cylons are much more human-like than either side likes to admit.  Frankly, the cylons haven't done anything more hideous to mankind than mankind has done to itself.  That was Six's point on Kobol (although she was twisting logic as part of that rant); we already have the Sagittaron conflict and inter-colonial strife as part of the colonies' recent past.  While we don't have descriptions of Killing Fields, it's hardly a stretch to believe that, across 12 planets, there weren't some terrible attrocities over the past 3000 years.  Remember, the colonies only unified because of one thing....the Cylons.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 31, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> But if they do that, then how are they any different from the Cylons, themselves?




The cylons aren't individuals, even the Human models.  They are group linked.  The Cylon says she isn't linked to the other Cylons when the Pres is talking to her, but then the one from Caprica says she remembers her relationship with the Chief didn't she?  So I would guess they are linked.  So you aren't killing anyone, just one of the many Sharon Units that are apparently part of a group mind.  And in any event if it enables them to find out who is a Toaster on the fleet then "morals" be damned.  It's a state of emergency with all the marbles on the line.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 31, 2005)

There's no reason to believe that Roslin will die on schedule, I don't think: she's taking the drug to treat the cancer, not for the heck of it (and the visions).


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## WizarDru (Aug 31, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> There's no reason to believe that Roslin will die on schedule, I don't think: she's taking the drug to treat the cancer, not for the heck of it (and the visions).




No, she's taking the drug to dull the symptoms.  It has been stated unequivocably more than once that the cancer is untreatable. The kamala root she's been taking is to mask the problems and the pain from the public.  A bed-ridden President is not what she wanted to present in a time of crisis, not unlike FDR during WWII.

At the moment, there's no reason to believe Roslin WON'T die on schedule.  Though I wouldn't be suprised if they discovered that something had changed.  The trick is this: if the prophecy is true, she has to be dying.  If the baby is born after nine months, she should be dead or on death's door, at best.  Has she already fulfilled her part of the prophecy?  Does she have to survive the journey to earth, or is the prophecy (like most prophecies) vague?


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 31, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> The trick is this: if the prophecy is true, she has to be dying.  If the baby is born after nine months, she should be dead or on death's door, at best.  Has she already fulfilled her part of the prophecy?  Does she have to survive the journey to earth, or is the prophecy (like most prophecies) vague?






> From Hand of God Season 1 Episode 10:
> One of the oracles, in the sacred scrolls. 3,600 years ago, Pythia wrote about the exile and the rebirth of a human race. And the lords anointed a leader to guide the caravan of the heavens to their new homeland and unto the leader they gave a vision of serpents, numbering two and ten, as a sign of things to come.
> 
> She also wrote that the leader suffered a wasting disease and would not live to enter the new land. But you're not dying... are you?




That says to me she does not have to survive the journey.

It also does not say specifically that the leader has to be dying at the time of the visions.  There is still time for Adama to develop a wasting disease of his own which would kill him before he sets foot upon Earth.  

Heh, plot twist - Roslin is cured and suddenly people think she just made up the whole prophet thing for her own advantage.


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## WizarDru (Aug 31, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Heh, plot twist - Roslin is cured and suddenly people think she just made up the whole prophet thing for her own advantage.




Which may happen...but Doc Cottle has the medical records and his own personal examination to prove it.  I'm willing to bet that some folks have gotten access to the records, even if Cottle wasn't willing to talk.  

I still believe that the writers will never give conclusive proof on much of this;  if someone makes a prediction and it comes true...does that make the prediction valid?  The prophecy (like most such predictions) is very vague and easily interpeted to match a situation.  Adama already has been 'dying', for example...does that count for the prophecy?  Likely not, but the vagueness makes it plausible, if not believable.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 31, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Who says they are?




The Colonials do, which is my point.

By now, they should have a good idea that these Cylons are much, much more than simply toasters. The fact that they're STILL treating them like that(Boomer, in particular) is something I can't see doing them any good at all. While I do believe that the Cylons plan to eliminate humanity as a whole, I still think there's a lot more to it. One thing I think definitely needs to be addressed is the fact that the Cylons are NOT walking toasters, and are much, much more complex than that.

Treating Boomer like a lab rat will only encourage the attitude that the Cylons are simple machines, and that will just distort anything they might actually be able to LEARN about her and the Cylons.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 31, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> That says to me she does not have to survive the journey.




Yep. Anyone notice the Moses connection here? To be true to that inspiration, then Roslin would be the dying leader Moses, and Adama would be the warlike Joshua.


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## Mercule (Aug 31, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Heh, plot twist - Roslin is cured and suddenly people think she just made up the whole prophet thing for her own advantage.




Ironic twist:  She's cured.  People lose faith in her and riot.  She's killed in the riot.

No one said that it was the wasting disease that killed her.  Only that she had a wasting disease and that she wouldn't make it to Earth.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 31, 2005)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Ironic twist:  She's cured.  People lose faith in her and riot.  She's killed in the riot.
> 
> No one said that it was the wasting disease that killed her.  Only that she had a wasting disease and that she wouldn't make it to Earth.



 Of course, there's also that off chance that she's a Cylon. As we've seen from Boomer, Cylons can be sick(even if her's was from pregnancy, its still sick). Its unlikely, but what if she's a plant to follow the scriptures?

Just throwing in another wrench.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 31, 2005)

We are ALL cylons, man.


Heavy.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 31, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> We are ALL cylons, man.
> 
> 
> Heavy.



 This is EXACTLY why Adama shouldn't have let the public know. 

Actually, thinking about it, who can we say is definintely NOT a Cylon? Seems like only a handful, but even then its working on shakey ground.

-Commander Adama: They tried to shoot him and seem to be bent on killing him. He definitely seems like the wrench in the Cylon's plans.

-Lee Adama: Unless Lee is some kind of hybrid(which seems to be possible, considering whatever Boomer's child might be), the Commander would remember him from birth and that would disqualify the young Adama from being a Cylon.

-Starbuck: Not so sure on this one, but from the Cylon's treatment of her on Caprica, she doesn't seem to be one of them.

-Helo: The way the Cylons talked about him on Caprica pretty much confirms he isn't one.

Beyond that, can we really say who is and who isn't a Cylon? We don't really know enough about the President to say one way or another, and Baltar...well...I'm starting to think that he may very well BE a Cylon(explaining how he gets the 'messages' from Six) and how his lucky guesses keep working out just perfectly.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Sep 1, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> The cylons aren't individuals, even the Human models.  They are group linked.  The Cylon says she isn't linked to the other Cylons when the Pres is talking to her, but then the one from Caprica says she remembers her relationship with the Chief didn't she?  So I would guess they are linked.




I venture that it doesn't work exactly like that.  Having them constantly networked, like a hive mind, would be really expensive in terms of energy use, especially when they're making an (apparently FTL comm) connection across vast interstellar distances.

My guess is that their super-bionic transmitters operate infrequently, possibly when the model is asleep, and probably in some sort of burst transmission, to get it done as fast as possible.  After all, the anthroforms are designed specifically for infiltration missions, often long-term, and any emissions could lead to detection, so it makes sense to minimize those.  Also, because these would come from the anthroform's regular energy budget, it'd be best to use it when they weren't doing anything else...like when the body was asleep.

If that's the case, and I kinda think (though, albeit, without much evidence other than Boomer saying "it doesn't work that way" to the President saying they're in constant contact) it is, then Boomer-G unknowingly sent regular updates back to the rest of the network, and would occasionally download instructions.  That would explain how Boomer-C knew about the Chief.

And if her saying "You ask why?" did refer to the question in the morgue, that would mean this could operate after the body's death.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 1, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> I venture that it doesn't work exactly like that.  Having them constantly networked, like a hive mind, would be really expensive in terms of energy use, especially when they're making an (apparently FTL comm) connection across vast interstellar distances.
> 
> My guess is that their super-bionic transmitters operate infrequently, possibly when the model is asleep, and probably in some sort of burst transmission, to get it done as fast as possible.  After all, the anthroforms are designed specifically for infiltration missions, often long-term, and any emissions could lead to detection, so it makes sense to minimize those.  Also, because these would come from the anthroform's regular energy budget, it'd be best to use it when they weren't doing anything else...like when the body was asleep.
> 
> ...




I'm thinking that different protocols may be in effect depending upon their assignment, but that at the time of death (or perhaps shortly after) a burst transmission completes an upload of information that has not been previously uploaded.  

The geek questions are: 
Is there is limit to the transmission distance.  
Is it a relay from one cylon to another?  
Is there cross-model transmission?  
If you blow the head off a human anthroform model, can they still upload?  

I also really want to know more about the cylon philosophy.  
Does each copy believe it has its own soul, or is it shared by each model?
If each copy essentially lives on after death in the other copies, what does their one God offer them?  An eternal afterlife?  Perhaps an individual soul?


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 1, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Is there is limit to the transmission distance.
> Is there cross-model transmission?




I think these two questions have been addressed, though not in a clear-cut absolute sense.  The Cylon that the president spaced implied that he couldn't transmit over such a distance, but it was in response to a suggestion made by one of the humans, so it may have been playing a game with them.  So that info is highly suspect.

I think the implication on cross-model transmission is "no".  At least under normal circumstance.  The Boomer and Six models seem to know what other Boomer and Six models know, but not what each other knows.  Again, however, we can't be certain.  Six certainly talks like she knows a lot about Boomer's qualities and abilities, but that's likely to be just talk - she doesn't appear to like Boomer much.

I wonder if the dislike is because the Boomer model is able to become pregnant, while she is not?  Is the Boomer model designed primarily to try and cross-breed with humans?


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## WizarDru (Sep 1, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I wonder if the dislike is because the Boomer model is able to become pregnant, while she is not?  Is the Boomer model designed primarily to try and cross-breed with humans?




I think there is definte jealousy in Six...she clearly is jealous of both Starbuck (a rival for Gaius affections, as far as she can tell) and Boomer.  I suspect it's not that Boomer is capable of having kids when Six is not, but rather that Boomer has been selected to have the child and test human love (whereas Six has not been).

Compare: Boomer has two men who are in love with her, who were willing to put their lives and careers at risk to protect her.  They love(d) and trust(ed) her.  Now look who Six was given: Gaius Baltar...a womanizing coward who lacks commitment, drive or courage.  Do you think Baltar would do anything that didn't benefit or bring pleasure to anyone but himself?  He claims to love Six...but it's a pretty selfish love.

Moreover, I think Six lacks the CAPACITY for love.  Her AI isn't really designed to do it.  Remember the conversation on Caprica with the other anthroform (news guy)?  She was clearly pained when he speculated: "_what does it feel like_?"  She is aware enough to know that she _can't_ love (or at the very least has never experienced it), not truly, and it drives her crazy.  She can inspire fantastic lust, sure...but Baltar's repeated trysts shows how hollow that power actually is.

RDM has claimed that each anthroform represents an aspect of humanity, as seen through the cylon lens.  That raises lots of interesting questions about what kind of criteria they used.  I think the Boomer-Legion on the Basestar summed it up: they didn't say "Let's kill mankind!"; they told Boomer they loved her.  

Which, btw, I think shows that each Boomer is separate yet similar; I think they act like nodes in a peer-to-peer network.  Boomer-C is a supernode, sharing important experience which is spread to other Boomers in chunks over time...not the direct stimulus and experience, but the intellectual data.  Boomer-C remembers shooting Adama...but it's more of an odd fact to her.  I doubt she actually has a strong visual memory, just that she recalls the facts and details of the event, not true experience.  This would also make data transfer much easier, as the relevant data would be much smaller.

I could also be smoking the rock.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Sep 2, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I think the implication on cross-model transmission is "no".  At least under normal circumstance.




They probably have access to a central database or network.  Otherwise, I don't see how Boomer-C could've known about the Baby Farms.

Hrm...how did she know about that, anyway?  One would assume that, *if* she was a rogue unit, she'd've been denied access to the network and resources, yet she was able to pick up that Heavy Raider to use.  If you recall, she mentioned in 2.5 that she didn't have access to certain information...which implies that she still has access to other information.

I could speculate that she's getting indirect access through Boomernet, or that she's not entirely as rogue as she would appear to be, but it'd probably require me to join WizarDru's pipe-rock session.  

Brad


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## WizarDru (Sep 2, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> I could speculate that she's getting indirect access through Boomernet, or that she's not entirely as rogue as she would appear to be, but it'd probably require me to join WizarDru's pipe-rock session.




I'll pass the pipe.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 2, 2005)

OK, now I really want to start a Battlestar Galactica fan site, just so I can call it "Boomernet".


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 9, 2005)

With all this speculation with Boomer #2, *the pregant one*, this dawn upon me. That she might be the real Sharon, in essence, kidnapped, memories ported into a new body. Reason, as much IA can simulate in calulation on human responses.

There is a point, that a program can do, but so much. I suspect, that the replaced humans memories were used as a template, for their net-gen forms.

And for the Boomer net...I get the feeling she is the only left of her make. Thus almost, is free to do what she pleases.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 9, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> And for the Boomer net...I get the feeling she is the only left of her make. Thus almost, is free to do what she pleases.




Ooh, I like this.  The cylons allowed all of her "sisters" to be blown up on the base star and so she is no longer connected to the network and thus has become more independant, and maybe even angry at the cylons - although as I write this it almost sounds too 7-of-9-ish.


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## ThirdWizard (Sep 9, 2005)

Humans plot against humans, but this is the first inkling of any kind of cylon turning on its own kind, and we definately arn't sure that's what's going on, either. I like the idea that she's the last Boomer. That would be interesting. I think they're cutting her slack because she's pregnant, as well. They want this baby. And, even if she thinks she's working against the cylon plans, she's probably another pawn in their machinations. I don't feel that cylons have cross-connections to other numbers, so she would never know if she's been being manipulated the whole time this has been going on.

As for Gaius, I do think he's in communication with something. Maybe not Six. Maybe something else entirely. Maybe even the cylons' God for all we know, the uber-toaster. Whatever the case, I don't think Sharon has any idea that he thinks he's talking to Six. And, I don't think she plans to give the baby up when its born. That should prove a very interesting episode!


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