# DC TV and tiny cells



## Morrus (Feb 3, 2016)

There's this thing I've been noticing about the DC television shows.  Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, they all do this thing where they casually throw captured foes permanently into tiny unfurnished cages. These cages make prison look like luxury - not even a bed. And, as far as I can tell, people stay there for ever. You occasionally see them being fed, but that's about it. 

Anyone else noticed this?


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## ccs (Feb 3, 2016)

I've noticed it in Flash when I binge watched the 1st season.
Though to be fair, where they were keeping prisoners wasn't really ever designed for that....
I figured they'd make a better plan in season 2.

I noticed it some in Arrow. (Only seen S1-3)
SG I've yet to see an episode of.  
I hate watching this stuff 1 episode/week.  So I just let the season wrap & then watch the entire thing over about 2 weeks.  Puts me about 9 months behind everyone else.  (I dont care about spoilers.)

But do you think that's intentional?  An over sight?  Building to something?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 4, 2016)

Yep, I noticed...not happy about it, either.  The inhumane conditions are definitely anti-heroic.


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## Morrus (Feb 4, 2016)

It's completely bizarre. There aren't even toilet facilities.  Not a pillow or blanket.  No books, nothing. I've seen TV shows looking at death row in America, and even those places have beds and TVs and books and blankets.  Supergirl is the worst, because the casually imprisoned foes are kept for life in transparent 5' wide hexagonal boxes in the middle of otherwise empty rooms.

In these images, people have been kept in these bare cages for very long periods of time.  They're not the best pics, but the best I could quickly find. These things aren't even commented on.

Supergirl cells:







Arrow:






Flash:


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 4, 2016)

Wow, never really thought about it. For some reason I thought it was supposed to be a stasis cell.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Feb 4, 2016)

I think it's just lazy writing. The writers just want to show the villains being secured. They probably assume you're too distracted by all the good the heroes are doing to notice they have little care for the humane treatment of those they capture.


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## Tonguez (Feb 4, 2016)

It has been noticed and commented on a few times, including on Ciscos tumblr account but its still creepy as heck.
The Flash specifically has had a couple of deleted scenes and off hand comments about how they feed the inmates takeaways (Mardon eats Thai every night) but the toilette regimes are left mysterious.

Of course we also saw in the Rogue Air episode that Prisoners are periodically moved on to the ARGUS prison on Lian Yu.

But yes it seems to be a particular design ascetic of the shows, which I don't think they've put too much thought into and which the audience is suppose to just accept. And to be fair, the same set up happens in almost every show/movie - I recall Magnetos glass cell in X2, Hannibal Lecters cell and the prison in Avatar the Last airbender too.


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## Ryujin (Feb 4, 2016)

I've thought about it and consider it to be a very deliberate choice, to satisfy and attract a specific demographic.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 4, 2016)

Budget constraints.


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## Morrus (Feb 4, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> But yes it seems to be a particular design ascetic of the shows, which I don't think they've put too much thought into and which the audience is suppose to just accept. And to be fair, the same set up happens in almost every show/movie - I recall Magnetos glass cell in X2, Hannibal Lecters cell and the prison in Avatar the Last airbender too.




Hannibal Lecter's cell was quite comfortable by comparison. Bed, sink, painting tools, desk.


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## Umbran (Feb 4, 2016)

Lack of a bed is an issue.

But, folks, in heroic fiction, nobody ever needs to use a toilet.  They are biologically unnecessary for people in such universes, and serve only as occasional dramatic or humor value.


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## Janx (Feb 4, 2016)

COnsider that the problem isn't the writers but the people building the sets and such.

As with the Hanibal reference, at some point, don't they put him in the center of the room and guard him.

That's the money shot for "imprisoned guy" so the other guy can talk to him.  It looks controlling and fool proof.  He's in the center of the room, you can film me walking around him, taunting him.  There's no way he can escape...


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 4, 2016)

Toilets are expensive, ceramic or stainless steel.


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## Umbran (Feb 4, 2016)

Janx said:


> COnsider that the problem isn't the writers but the people building the sets and such.




Or maybe the "problem" is more simple - a mismatch of expectations.  For superhero fiction, should the writers or set designers *expect* the viewers to consider the implications of lack of fixtures in a jail cell?  Are the viewers even expected to *notice* the lack?  Or, are the viewers expected to be focused on whatever speechifying is going on in the scene?

How often are comic-book panels drawn such that the lack of a detail in the background is actually relevant to the action?  Isn't relevant stuff usually made a foreground element in a panel?  The art style has implications on how the story is told and structured, such that such subtlety isn't the comic-book-superhero genre forte.

We never see a toilet in the Batcave either.  There's no Batcommode.  Now, we can either figure that the folks making the movies just figure, really, we aren't all that concerned about where and when Wayne uses the toilet, or that the real reason for the voices used for Batman are due to his excessive constipation.  Which are you going to go with?


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 4, 2016)

Umbran said:


> . . . . .edit . . . . .We never see a toilet in the Batcave either.  There's no Batcommode.  Now, we can either figure that the folks making the movies just figure, really, we aren't all that concerned about where and when Wayne uses the toilet, or that the real reason for the voices used for Batman are due to his excessive constipation.  Which are you going to go with?




I am going with the constipation theory.


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## Morrus (Feb 4, 2016)

Umbran said:


> We never see a toilet in the Batcave either.  There's no Batcommode.  Now, we can either figure that the folks making the movies just figure, really, we aren't all that concerned about where and when Wayne uses the toilet, or that the real reason for the voices used for Batman are due to his excessive constipation.  Which are you going to go with?




We don't see the entirety of the Batcave, and it's not 5' across, though. There's one thing not showing the parts of the spaceship where the toilet is; it's another to clearly show that there is no toilet.

But that wasn't really my point; it wasn't just the toilet I was raising, and like you say, that's explainable. It appears that these people are kept there for years at a time, and there's not so much as a blanket, a chair, or a book.  Nothing. And this is done so casually to them - and even the prisoners seem to think it's perfectly normal!



> For superhero fiction, should the writers or set designers *expect* the viewers to consider the implications of lack of fixtures in a jail cell?  Are the viewers even expected to *notice* the lack?




I can't speak to what they expect; I can only speak to the fact that *I* noticed it and considered the implications. Maybe I'm the only one! I don't think I'm that special though.


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## ccs (Feb 4, 2016)

Well, I guess it sets up plausible escapes.
Afterall, if there's no toilet you've either got to take your prisoners to such facilities OR clean their cells.
Wichever way, now the escape proof cage is open.

Probably not what the show creators ever intended us to imagine but....
(It'd be really funny if one of these shows used that escape idea though)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 4, 2016)

I'm thinking...batbidet.


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## WayneLigon (Feb 4, 2016)

In the Comics, it's expected that supercriminals are constrained in special prisons, usually ones specially built for them to contain their powers and abilities. This hasn't had time to appear in any of the shows, so... what else are you going to do with someone who can turn into poisonous gas at will or who has mind-control powers? Unwilling to outright kill them, containment is the only solution. The Flash people happen to have that capability, so they use it. The only other alternative is killing the prisoner, because otherwise you're going to simply turn them over to the cops to escape again in seconds.

For Supergirl: secret Government facility, and prisoners who are not US citizens. They should probably be glad they're allowed clothing.


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## Morrus (Feb 4, 2016)

WayneLigon said:


> In the Comics, it's expected that supercriminals are constrained in special prisons, usually ones specially built for them to contain their powers and abilities. This hasn't had time to appear in any of the shows, so... what else are you going to do with someone who can turn into poisonous gas at will or who has mind-control powers? Unwilling to outright kill them, containment is the only solution. The Flash people happen to have that capability, so they use it. The only other alternative is killing the prisoner, because otherwise you're going to simply turn them over to the cops to escape again in seconds.




The only alternative to giving them a blanket and a book is to kill them? I don't agree with your logic there. Although "blanket or death!" is kinda catchy.


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## Janx (Feb 4, 2016)

Morrus said:


> We don't see the entirety of the Batcave, and it's not 5' across, though. There's one thing not showing the parts of the spaceship where the toilet is; it's another to clearly show that there is no toilet.
> 
> But that wasn't really my point; it wasn't just the toilet I was raising, and like you say, that's explainable. It appears that these people are kept there for years at a time, and there's not so much as a blanket, a chair, or a book.  Nothing. And this is done so casually to them - and even the prisoners seem to think it's perfectly normal!
> 
> ...




Which again, I think it partly due to the folks doing the visuals, that they just didn't think of it/wanted this small box to display the prisoner in, and didn't think about the logistics of actually keeping a person in there.

My wife is watching NCIS now, and I notice on that show, they re-use a jail cell over different episodes that clearly has a bed and a toilet, and is actually larger than real jail cells I bet.  So somebody on THAT show has thought about it.


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## Umbran (Feb 4, 2016)

Morrus said:


> I can't speak to what they expect;




Actually, I think we can.  Authors and audiences rely on implicit and explicit expectations *all the time*.  Meeting and violating these expectations are part of the art.  

You ever heard of "Checkov's Gun"?  That's about expectations.  Ask yourself - was this a Checkov's Toilet?



> I can only speak to the fact that *I* noticed it and considered the implications. Maybe I'm the only one! I don't think I'm that special though.




Dude, you run a gaming website.  That, in and of itself, makes you at least a tad abnormal 

I'm mostly saying that, whether or not you thought of it, whether you should worry about it depends on whether you think it was an intentional point they were making.  If you take their depiction to be literal, then, yes, in that world they treat these prisoners horribly, and you should the also expect that to be relevant.  If you figure that the details of the cell are not really important, then the observation can be discarded as just one of those things in the making of television, without real implications.

The discussion can then move to whether or not they *should* be using such details more literally of not, which is actually a meaty one, I think.


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## Umbran (Feb 4, 2016)

Janx said:


> My wife is watching NCIS now, and I notice on that show, they re-use a jail cell over different episodes that clearly has a bed and a toilet, and is actually larger than real jail cells I bet.  So somebody on THAT show has thought about it.




NCIS is trying to have the more plausible case that they are depicting reality, I would think.

It is also a set they re-use, and my understanding of TV sets is that things they plan to re-use get a bit more consideration when created. They want to cover everything plausible the writers of later seasons *might* want to do, and not get in the way of that.  For example, it is likely larger than a real cell, because they may need to fit a camera rig inside the cell at some point, even if they don't put one in the first time the set is used...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 4, 2016)

I've wondered about this before. In Supergirl's case - usually the prisoners are illegal aliens from outer space. Their biology could maybe not require toilets, blankets or water.*

But Flash? Some of these very at the basis human. I suppose a living tar pit that was enclosed in tar for 2 years might not need a toilet, but the turtle or some teleporter seem like they could still have the usual needs.
I think anything that can totally shapeshift (be it tar or gas) might really be excused from any of this, because their energy might not come from food anyway.


*) mostly because they have so unrealistic and illogical capabilities that trying to have realistic considerations about toilets and food, we would just be very unreasonable selectively trying to apply those considerations.


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## Tonguez (Feb 4, 2016)

Janx said:


> Which again, I think it partly due to the folks doing the visuals, that they just didn't think of it/wanted this small box to display the prisoner in, and didn't think about the logistics of actually keeping a person in there.
> 
> My wife is watching NCIS now, and I notice on that show, they re-use a jail cell over different episodes that clearly has a bed and a toilet, and is actually larger than real jail cells I bet.  So somebody on THAT show has thought about it.




I wonder if its a throw back to Western movies. Perhaps in the standard motifs of heroic fiction we are inspired by "the heroic Sheriff throwing the bad guy into a cell with nothing but a bucket in the corner" - it would be interesting if such motifs do have influence.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 4, 2016)

I do know that Hawaii 5-oh gives toilets and beds even to the super max prisoners as there was an episode where the BBEG escapes because he was hiding something in the toilet.

Alright [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]s, I might as well tell you: Here in the colonies we practice barbaric treatment of our prisoners in most places where we make them live in their own sewage with out even a bed and observable 24-7. So be careful when you are here that you don't even break the speed limit . . . . . OR ELSE!!!


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## Nytmare (Feb 4, 2016)

I've only watched Flash, but it's been "yet one more of those things that keeps bothering me about this show that I still can't stop watching."  Not only is it inhumane and unjust, but they've got like psychotic murderers that can turn into poison gas, and a girl who can whose only crime (I think?) was busting her boyfriend out of jail.

I don't know if another super hero show I've watched didn't end with them capturing the bad guys, and then handing them over to the authorities to be judged, sentenced, and dealt with.  I think that the fact that they have a police detective and journalist complicit in all of it is what bugs me the most.  Or that they're complicit in it but they've never bothered to take three minutes to have either Joe or Olive mention that it bothers them and then have someone/something change their mind.  Also, Barry's dad was wrongfully imprisoned for however many years, you'd figure that the writers would have at least touched on his moral quandries.  

Though...I guess it's better than letting the bad guys escape at the end of every episode.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 4, 2016)

Well, committing a jailbreak IS a felony.


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## Janx (Feb 4, 2016)

Nytmare said:


> I've only watched Flash, but it's been "yet one more of those things that keeps bothering me about this show that I still can't stop watching."  Not only is it inhumane and unjust, but they've got like psychotic murderers that can turn into poison gas, and a girl who can whose only crime (I think?) was busting her boyfriend out of jail.
> 
> I don't know if another super hero show I've watched didn't end with them capturing the bad guys, and then handing them over to the authorities to be judged, sentenced, and dealt with.  I think that the fact that they have a police detective and journalist complicit in all of it is what bugs me the most.  Or that they're complicit in it but they've never bothered to take three minutes to have either Joe or Olive mention that it bothers them and then have someone/something change their mind.  Also, Barry's dad was wrongfully imprisoned for however many years, you'd figure that the writers would have at least touched on his moral quandries.
> 
> Though...I guess it's better than letting the bad guys escape at the end of every episode.




I haven't seen that show, but I would imagine that to folks who were actively capturing somebody in the act of doing something bad, the concept of needing a trial may be illogical to a vigilante.  You just saw and caught the bad guy doing bad things.  Guilt has been established.  Therefore, the only thing to do next is decide on how to deal with the bad guy.  Apparently on the flash, they have a bunch of small cells.

Now to a society as a whole, the point of a justice system is because you don't intrinisically trust the cop saying, "yes, this is the right bad guy and he did it."

But to an individual who just experienced a crime directly or apprehended a criminal?  Those steps are ludicrous as the facts were established by you, the direct witness.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 4, 2016)

Certainly, comic book justice is rarely congruent with RW justice.


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## Tonguez (Feb 4, 2016)

Scott DeWar said:


> I do know that Hawaii 5-oh gives toilets and beds even to the super max prisoners as there was an episode where the BBEG escapes because he was hiding something in the toilet.
> 
> Alright [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]s, I might as well tell you: Here in the colonies we practice barbaric treatment of our prisoners in most places where we make them live in their own sewage with out even a bed and observable 24-7. So be careful when you are here that you don't even break the speed limit . . . . . OR ELSE!!!




thats nothing compared to being locked in The Tower

and the London Dungeon is of course, something else entirely


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## Nytmare (Feb 4, 2016)

Janx said:


> COnsider that the problem isn't the writers but the people building the sets and such.




You're mostly right, decisions like that aren't made by the writers, but they also aren't really made singly.  Even though there's usually only one person designing a set, there's an easy dozen people whose job it is to look at what they're drafting and planning and telling them what they can, can't, should, and shouldn't do.  That's producers, directors, DPs, and a host of others arguing aesthetics, logistics, money, manpower, and equipment. 

If you're looking for fault.  How the cell _looks_ is mostly decided by the production designer, the director, and one or more of the producers.  How the prison _works_, and how the characters interact with it existing is based off the decisions of the writers, the showrunners, and/or one or more of the producers.


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## Nytmare (Feb 4, 2016)

Janx said:


> I haven't seen that show, but I would imagine that to folks who were actively capturing somebody in the act of doing something bad, the concept of needing a trial may be illogical to a vigilante.  You just saw and caught the bad guy doing bad things.  Guilt has been established.  Therefore, the only thing to do next is decide on how to deal with the bad guy.  Apparently on the flash, they have a bunch of small cells.






Dannyalcatraz said:


> Certainly, comic book justice is rarely congruent with RW justice.




Though both these points are true, I'd say for the story that they've been telling (the bright and shiny, happy, lawful good, good guy Flash) as well as the overall story they've been trying to tell with the DC universe, it doesn't mesh well at all.  He's the do the right thing, and *still* agonize over the consequences good guy.  And he's surrounded by people who work within or interact with the justice system who also agonize over right, wrong, and the moral implications of their choices.  The Flash is a CSI tech, his step-dad/partner is a detective, and his step-sister/ex girlfriend(?)/partner is a journalist.  

Heck, even Batman turns them over to the cops once he's done beating them up and breaking all of their bones.

It wouldn't even have taken a half an episode of storytelling when they were dealing with how much their society loves him and they were handing him the keys to the city to have a hand shake and an agreement  about him holding on to all the bad guys till they figured out what to do with them.


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## Tonguez (Feb 4, 2016)

Nytmare said:


> It wouldn't even have taken a half an episode of storytelling when they were dealing with how much their society loves him and they were handing him the keys to the city to have a hand shake and an agreement  about him holding on to all the bad guys till they figured out what to do with them.




again this is covered in Rogue Air (episode 22) when the metas are handed over to ARGUS, to be transported to Lian Yu. It even has Joe approaching the DA for help but her refusing to get the city officials involved as it is too dodgy - hence Barry has to go and ask Snart to assist. 

Barry does angst about the metas they've got locked up but justifies it as they are 'bad guys who could hurt alot of people" and now he considered himself directly responsible for cleaning up the particle accelerator explosions/Dimensional Portal mess

Edit: and I forgot - as of season 2 Iron Heights has also added a Meta-Human wing (we haven't seen it but it has been referenced)


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## Nytmare (Feb 4, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> again this is covered in Rogue Air (episode 22) when the metas are handed over to ARGUS, to be transported to Lian Yu. It even has Joe approaching the DA for help but her refusing to get the city officials involved as it is too dodgy - hence Barry has to go and ask Snart to assist.
> 
> Barry does angst about the metas they've got locked up but justifies it as they are 'bad guys who could hurt alot of people" and now he considered himself directly responsible for cleaning up the particle accelerator explosions/Dimensional Portal mess




Ah ha!  Well I guess _someone_ missed an episode!


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 5, 2016)

Nytmare said:


> Heck, even Batman turns them over to the cops once he's done beating them up and breaking all of their bones.




And Spider man/journalist by day ties them up in a neat package with a bow on it for the police to pick them up and cart them off to be processed.


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## Richards (Feb 5, 2016)

Umbran said:


> We never see a toilet in the Batcave either.  There's no Batcommode.



Are you saying the Bat-Cave doesn't have a Bat-Room?

Johnathan


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## Umbran (Feb 5, 2016)

We never see a toilet on the Starship Enterprise, either...

[video]https://youtu.be/rGQ-kqiWyMk[/video]


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## Umbran (Feb 5, 2016)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Well, committing a jailbreak IS a felony.




I don't watch Flash or Arrow - were the people in question locked up after due process, or are the heroes locking the bad guys away as best they can without legal sanction?


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 5, 2016)

in stargate universe you see a shower, but nothing else


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 5, 2016)

"Commander Ryker, I said SIT in 10 Forward!!!"


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 5, 2016)

Umbran said:


> I don't watch Flash or Arrow - were the people in question locked up after due process, or are the heroes locking the bad guys away as best they can without legal sanction?




No due process shown, and the implication from the way it is written, nobody imprisoned has been before a judge.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 5, 2016)

BSG has no bathrooms..._because they're ALL Cylons!!!_


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 5, 2016)

Does the Tardis have a bathroom? I know there is  a pool.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 5, 2016)

Scott DeWar said:


> Does the Tardis have a bathroom? I know there is  a pool.




[video=youtube;TPxiXGr9nFM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxiXGr9nFM&sns=em[/video]


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 5, 2016)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> . . . .. video . . . . .




Gah! Its not a doodie! it was a candy bar!! but any way.I have seen two eps of the doctor that were all over the Tardis, but I have seen no latrine.


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## Tonguez (Feb 5, 2016)

Scott DeWar said:


> Gah! Its not a doodie! it was a candy bar!! but any way.I have seen two eps of the doctor that were all over the Tardis, but I have seen no latrine.




the TARDIS does have a toilet, it was mentioned by the 7th Doctor - it's "to the left, after the zoo."


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 5, 2016)

Ah!!!! Uh, What episode was it?


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## Ryujin (Feb 5, 2016)

Toilets didn't really make an appearance in North American TV until "All in the Family", in 1971, and even then they were a sound effect.


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## Nytmare (Feb 5, 2016)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> BSG has no bathrooms..._because they're ALL Cylons!!!_




Actually BSG did have toilets.  On that show however, it bothered me because they had rolls of toilet paper and it would have been cleverer for them to have had something more foreign.


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## Ryujin (Feb 5, 2016)

Nytmare said:


> Actually BSG did have toilets.  On that show however, it bothered me because they had rolls of toilet paper and it would have been cleverer for them to have had something more foreign.




Given that they were trying very hard to make it relatable to our current world, that would have been counter productive.


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## Nytmare (Feb 5, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> Given that they were trying very hard to make it relatable to our current world, that would have been counter productive.




My take on it through the entire show was that they were trying to do kind of the opposite, to make the viewers question their assumptions that it happens in the near future and muddy where it existed in the timeline.  Rolls of Charmin made me think "either this happens in the near future or someone wasn't being very imaginative."


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## Ryujin (Feb 5, 2016)

Nytmare said:


> My take on it through the entire show was that they were trying to do kind of the opposite, to make the viewers question their assumptions that it happens in the near future and muddy where it existed in the timeline.  Rolls of Charmin made me think "either this happens in the near future or someone wasn't being very imaginative."




Could have been worse. It could have been three seashells.


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## Janx (Feb 5, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> Could have been worse. It could have been three seashells.




For BSG, I would have figured it would have been stacks of squares of toilet paper with the corners cut off.


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## Ryujin (Feb 5, 2016)

Janx said:


> For BSG, I would have figured it would have been stacks of squares of toilet paper with the corners cut off.




Given the way that the show went at times, I would have expected steam cleaning.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 5, 2016)

Nytmare said:


> Actually BSG did have toilets.  On that show however, it bothered me because they had rolls of toilet paper and it would have been cleverer for them to have had something more foreign.




I don't remember them, but I bet they DIDN'T have automatic towel or utilities with the glowing red lights...


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## Nytmare (Feb 5, 2016)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I don't remember them, but I bet they DIDN'T have automatic towel or utilities with the glowing red lights...




The series would have ended a lot sooner if everybody on the ship had been airlocked by the autoflush toilets in the first 15 minutes.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 5, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> Could have been worse. It could have been three seashells.



 Naw, just use "frack" all the time and get fined - use the paper notificaations to wipe with!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 5, 2016)

Nytmare said:


> The series would have ended a lot sooner if everybody on the ship had been airlocked by the autoflush toilets in the first 15 minutes.




"What is WRONG with this thing?  Flush, damn you, FLUSH!"

"By your command."

"Wha...AAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHH!"

[video=youtube;0ccKPSVQcFk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ccKPSVQcFk&sns=em[/video]


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 5, 2016)

Tangent: I have to say, even though I was never a huge fan of OBSG, I always liked the Cylons- among my favorite "alien" menaces of all time.  I think they're still in my top 5 of mechanical antagonists, alongside the Daleks, Replicators, Terminators and (new) Cybermen.


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## Ryujin (Feb 5, 2016)

Scott DeWar said:


> Naw, just use "frack" all the time and get fined - use the paper notificaations to wipe with!




I can just picture Katee Sackoff doing that 



Dannyalcatraz said:


> "What is WRONG with this thing?  Flush, damn you, FLUSH!"
> 
> "By your command."
> 
> ...




The new Cylons are more stealthy. The expression "Roto Rooter" comes to mind, for some reason.


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## Nytmare (Feb 5, 2016)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Tangent: I have to say, even though I was never a huge fan of OBSG, I always liked the Cylons- among my favorite "alien" menaces of all time.  I think they're still in my top 5 of mechanical antagonists, alongside the Daleks, Replicators, Terminators and (new) Cybermen.




Continuing the tangent, The Borg didn't make your top 5?


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 5, 2016)

The Borg is fully efficient and needs no form of waste removal.


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## Tonguez (Feb 5, 2016)

Nytmare said:


> Continuing the tangent, The Borg didn't make your top 5?




Too much biomass

ie. I wouldn't consider the Borg to be a Mechanical Menace


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 5, 2016)

Nytmare said:


> Continuing the tangent, The Borg didn't make your top 5?




Nope.  They came in at 7 (of 9). 

But seriously, they got edged out of my top 5, quite possibly for being too visually human.  That definitely was a factor in knocking the NBSG Cylons out.

Plus, IMHO, the reworked Cybermen did a better job with the "assimilation" theme.  Borg were too varied.  Piecemeal replacement of parts resulted in too many variants to visually imply the cold efficiency of machine logic.  Making all assimilated beings conform to the Procrustean mold that is the one and only standard Cyberman design is much more in keeping with that horror.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 6, 2016)

for Danny:


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